# A pair of Windhagers  99% complete



## heaterman (Oct 3, 2013)

Some pictures of an installation we did the last week of September. 

These are replacing a pair of Garn 2000's on a farm near our location. If you can believe it or not, the farm owner found that keeping the Garns operating proved to be too much for his personnel to handle.
To be fair, the farm itself has undergone huge changes since the Garns were installed in 2008. 
The owner, (my favorite farmer) said it to me this way. "Steven, when you put those Garns in I was milking 325 cows, had 9 people working here and we were farming about 600 acres of land. Now I have 1,100 cows, over 1,000 acres of land and close to 40 people including part time help. I love my Garn but we have to do something else for the farm."

So.....he wanted to try a couple pellet boilers thinking that his people would not be able to screw them up. Which is probably true. 

The pair of 260's shown here are far less output than the pair of 2000's we took out so we reconfigured the control side of things in the barn to give priority for making 400 gallons of 170* water, 3 times per day, over the radiant floor heating system. We are going to see how this works out this winter and if needed come up with some other means to get some additional heat in the barn offices and milking parlor.

I'm guessing based on his propane bills which were for hot water only, that he will probably go through about 35 tons of pellets per year so this is going to be severe duty for the Windhagers. The acid test so to speak. If they hold up here they will work anywhere for anyone. I have a hunch they will be up to the task.

There is no cascade control which stages or rotates the boilers automatically. We set them up with one dialed in for 170* and the other for 175*. Since there is no communication (as yet) between the system controls in the barn and the Windhagers, they are simply maintaining the programmed setpoint. For this particular application that works OK because there is near constant heat demand from somewhere in the barn even in the summer.

I've noticed that the run time per day is about 18 hours on the boiler set for 170 and about 20 hours on the one set for 175*. I have a hunch that probably half of the hours on each will turn out to be at reduced output of around 40-50% with the remaining time at 100% output. I would like to get some kind of data logger that could tie into the Windhager control to monitor firing rates and see what exactly goes on over the course of a day.

We have a couple details to finish up there (the missing barometric and sealing up some holes) and will be doing monthly checks and maintenance on them so I'll be able to update on how these boilers are handling the monumental load they are connected to. Watch for updates.


----------



## JP11 (Oct 3, 2013)

Very nice setup.  I guess the cost of pellets isn't that far off from the cost of wood.  I would have thought that with that big of an operation they could just have a dedicated employee doing near nothing but wood.  Cut, split, fire the boilers.  But maybe no one liked doing it.. so it got left behind.

He sure saved some floor space.  Curious about the bulk pellet bin, and bulk pellet delivery.  Wonder if bulk prices are that much different from bagged.

Thanks for sharing.

JP


----------



## avc8130 (Oct 3, 2013)

What happened to the old Garns?

ac


----------



## harttj (Oct 3, 2013)

Nice setup. No bulk storage?  With 35 tons I would want bulk storage. 

Makes me want to build a storage shed for one and convert. 

I'll be burning corn this year anyways. 

Tim


----------



## AK13 (Oct 3, 2013)

35 tons and no bulk storage/feed! That is crazy. I can't believe he's going to run 35 tons through those boilers bag by bag. He's a farmer so I'm sure a pellet silo would look real nice next to this boiler building. 

Who is the distributor for Windhager boilers in the US? Google didn't find it for me.


----------



## charly (Oct 3, 2013)

heaterman said:


> Some pictures of an installation we did the last week of September.
> 
> These are replacing a pair of Garn 2000's on a farm near our location. If you can believe it or not, the farm owner found that keeping the Garns operating proved to be too much for his personnel to handle.
> To be fair, the farm itself has undergone huge changes since the Garns were installed in 2008.
> ...


I just want to commend you on caring about the quality of your work...  Well appreciated here... think that's a dieing art caring anymore.. Wow, what size pex is coming out of the floor?


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Oct 3, 2013)

AK13 said:


> 35 tons and no bulk storage/feed! That is crazy. I can't believe he's going to run 35 tons through those boilers bag by bag. He's a farmer so I'm sure a pellet silo would look real nice next to this boiler building.
> 
> Who is the distributor for Windhager boilers in the US? Google didn't find it for me.


 
35 tons may seem crazy, but at the other hand the farmer was using cord wood before.
Just switching to bagged wood pellets will be a big time and labor saver.

35 ton = 70,000 Lbs = 1,750 bags of 40 Lbs
The BioWIN holds 8 bags or 320 Lbs in its hopper
1750 bags represents 219 fillings of 8 bags
This is every 1.7 days knowing the constant heat load year round.

Not that bad compared with filling a wood boiler with cord wood.


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Oct 3, 2013)

[quote="Who is the distributor for Windhager boilers in the US? Google didn't find it for me.[/quote]

http://www.windhager.com/int_en/contact/sales-partner-europe/usa-79/


----------



## TCaldwell (Oct 3, 2013)

Beautiful work, who says farming is dead! This is another nail on the coffin for cordwood, has anybody tried a pellet head in a garn?


----------



## heaterman (Oct 3, 2013)

.


JP11 said:


> Very nice setup.  I guess the cost of pellets isn't that far off from the cost of wood.  I would have thought that with that big of an operation they could just have a dedicated employee doing near nothing but wood.  Cut, split, fire the boilers.  But maybe no one liked doing it.. so it got left behind.
> 
> He sure saved some floor space.  Curious about the bulk pellet bin, and bulk pellet delivery.  Wonder if bulk prices are that much different from bagged.
> 
> ...



When you factor in the labor involved with cord wood, especially that much, the difference between pellets and wood becomes very small.

Regarding a dedicated operator.......I think that was part of the problem. Seeing that they milk basically around the clock there were a couple persons on each of the 3 different shifts who were feeding and caring for the Garns each day. Add to that at least two different rotations of personnel each week and he had probably 6-8 different employees looking at the Garns each week.
So it became everyone's job and no ones job if you get my drift. We would get a call for no hot water or running out of hot water during the wash cycle and go there to find the Garns completely full of ashes with the bottom air inlet blocked off or maybe jammed with wood without ever having turned on the combustion fan timer. All the wood was just sitting in there smoldering on top of coals.   Add the green wood and the whole scenario was just a mess he didn't have time to deal with.

On one of the calls we went there and found that someone had dropped a large block of wood on the drain in front, broke the 3/4 nipple off in the tank and both of them were drained. 4,000 gallons of water on the floor of the boiler room. Luckily the fires were nearly out when that happened.

I think that at least some of the employees had OWB's themselves so they just thought they had to throw wood in and let it take care of itself. You can imagine how that worked.........

As far as prices go around here, none of the mills are set up to deliver bulk, they only do bags. One of the producers is looking into it but has not seen enough demand to warrant the expense of a delivery truck. Being that you can get a 10 ton load of premium pellets delivered for around $175 per, there is not a lot of cost savings to be had in the first place.


----------



## heaterman (Oct 3, 2013)

charly said:


> I just want to commend you on caring about the quality of your work...  Well appreciated here... think that's a dieing art caring anymore.. Wow, what size pex is coming out of the floor?



Thank you very much. 
I will pass that along to my sons, Andrew and Matthew. They set the boilers, did all the piping, installed the Class A chimney and chimney connectors and tied everything together. Then they did some "remodel" work on the distribution side in the barn besides. All this dad did was give them the basic layout and turn them loose with the threader. I have to confess I did the wiring too but that's about it.
Matthew says Andy is just about too fussy to work with. Matt can hold a 36" pipe wrench in each hand straight out from his shoulders......so they make a good team. .............Yes I am proud of them both and I am bragging.

The pex coming out of the floor is 2" Rehau brand.


----------



## JP11 (Oct 4, 2013)

Thanks for the info.  I'm surprised that bulk hasn't caught on.  We had some real 'early adopters' in western maine building bulk bins and delivering 5 years or so ago.  

Very cool to read about your sons.  That's great.  I enjoyed watching the uncle/nephew combo that put in my boiler.  Near no conversation, just quietly moving around reading each other's minds.

JP


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Oct 4, 2013)

Pricing on wood pellets seems significantly cheaper in Michigan then here in the North East.
$175/ton we can only dream off.
Wondering why this big gap


----------



## Chris Hoskin (Oct 4, 2013)

Great looking install heaterman!  Certainly the pellets will be easier handling than that much cordwood and, perhaps more importantly, will minimize the mult-user / operator error issues they were having with the Garns.  Are these boilers cascaded? (lead/lag, etc)


----------



## charly (Oct 4, 2013)

heaterman said:


> Thank you very much.
> I will pass that along to my sons, Andrew and Matthew. They set the boilers, did all the piping, installed the Class A chimney and chimney connectors and tied everything together. Then they did some "remodel" work on the distribution side in the barn besides. All this dad did was give them the basic layout and turn them loose with the threader. I have to confess I did the wiring too but that's about it.
> Matthew says Andy is just about too fussy to work with. Matt can hold a 36" pipe wrench in each hand straight out from his shoulders......so they make a good team. .............Yes I am proud of them both and I am bragging.
> 
> The pex coming out of the floor is 2" Rehau brand.


You should be proud of them.. Nice thing is, later on,  they'll always have work!   Tell Matt fussy is a good thing ..  I think that's in your blood... no one can really make you fussy or care... I was a Harley Tech for a dealer for like 10 years... I always told people I would fly what I worked on.... People use to remark how it didn't even look like I worked on their bikes... That's because I covered any paint , chrome, never scratched a thing, and the best thing, no come backs. Simply did all my work like it was for me.. I always said it was just as easy to do it right then cob.. Looks like you have a great team !  I'm one to make sure all my wire ties go on the same way and spaced equally.. ... I think it's a good sickness


----------



## heaterman (Oct 4, 2013)

Chris Hoskin said:


> Great looking install heaterman!  Certainly the pellets will be easier handling than that much cordwood and, perhaps more importantly, will minimize the mult-user / operator error issues they were having with the Garns.  Are these boilers cascaded? (lead/lag, etc)




Thanks Chris.


Not cascaded at this point. We may do that later depending on how this setup runs. Right now we simply have the set point 5* different on them. One at 175* and one at 170*. Hour meter shows 10% difference in run time so far. 
It's interesting to see them modulate as the setpoint is reached. The lower one will begin to modulate down as water temp gets within 2-3* of target, while the other one continues at full throttle. Then it too will start to ramp down as the system temp nears 172-173*.  It makes for a nice smooth shutoff with no temperature overshoot at the end of a cycle.
I was there yesterday and the system was at 176* with one boiler at 35% fire and the other at 47%. The first boiler went off when the system temp hit 177* and the second one was running at 30% with the same water temp when I left 20 minutes later.

One of the stipulations of the job is that we would be allowed to come back once per month to check and clean as needed so we will be back often to monitor what is going on. Windhager is in the process of making their own cascade control available for use here so if the need for it is apparent we will probably install that when we can get our hands on it just to see how it works.


----------



## heaterman (Oct 4, 2013)

PassionForFire&Water said:


> Pricing on wood pellets seems significantly cheaper in Michigan then here in the North East.
> $175/ton we can only dream off.
> Wondering why this big gap



We are in a sweet spot Marc. There are 4 pellet producers within a 60 mile radius of our location. All of them will sell directly to the consumer if you show up with cash and something to haul a pallet or two right out of their warehouse.
Competition is the key. It shouldn't cost any more to produce pellets out east than it does here.


----------



## JP11 (Oct 4, 2013)

I think your cordwood out there goes for less too.  Even in the rural areas of the NE where there's loggers around, prices still seem high.

JP


----------



## heaterman (Oct 4, 2013)

JP11 said:


> I think your cordwood out there goes for less too.  Even in the rural areas of the NE where there's loggers around, prices still seem high.
> 
> JP




Delivered rate for green firewood in full length (100")? sticks in 10 cord loads is running between $750- $850. Those are full 4' x4' x 8' cords. There are a couple of the larger producers that yard up all the unsalable timber from a cut and stack it. Some of that stuff can be as much as a year or two old so not quite as wet as normal. They typically run $850-$950 delivered.


----------



## JP11 (Oct 4, 2013)

Iv'e gotten numbers in the 110 to 120 per cord for tree length delivered IF you took a full load. That varies from 8 to 12 cord depending on the logger.

I'll stick to my own trees.  Got plenty.

The idea of pellets in bulk sure is appealing for someone that wants to get off oil, and keep their money local.  How long do you expect one of these boilers to be able to run before they NEED to be cleaned out.  I know they have a bag type system that seems to be quick and easy to clean.  Just wonder how JQPublic would react to the mtx requirements.

I would imagine even with a few bags a day needed.. pretty easy to tell the employees that job number 1 is check the hopper.  takes a few seconds to slit the top of a bag and dump it it.  not like starting and building a fire.

thanks for the info.

JP


----------



## DBNH22 (Oct 4, 2013)

heaterman said:


> We are in a sweet spot Marc. There are 4 pellet producers within a 60 mile radius of our location. All of them will sell directly to the consumer if you show up with cash and something to haul a pallet or two right out of their warehouse.
> Competition is the key. It shouldn't cost any more to produce pellets out east than it does here.




The cost of living in general is higher here in New England than in most other places in the country so it would follow that wood pellets may be a little more too.  The one thing I have noticed is that the closer that one is to the pellet producers in Maine, (there are a 3-4 companies making pellets in Maine currently)  the better deals you can get seemingly because transportation costs are not factored into the pellet price as much.  I've seen pricing reports on this site and spoken to people who can actually buy branded pellets in certain parts of Maine for about $195 a ton at Walmart and other retailers.  I'm in NH and the best price I've seen in my local area for the very same pellets is $230 per ton.  There is one pellet producer in NH but I have heard mostly bad things about the quality of their product and the Maine rule does not hold true here where being closer to the source drives the price down.  I think with regard to certain things economies tend to become very local.

I've actually created a spreadsheet to track pellet pricing in the area and which will also track my family's pellet use, boiler settings weather patterns/temps etc etc.   It's just a tool to ensure I'm getting the most bang for my buck.

I hope you'll be sharing with us how that pair of Biowin's performs this winter heaterman.


----------



## heaterman (Oct 4, 2013)

JP11 said:


> Iv'e gotten numbers in the 110 to 120 per cord for tree length delivered IF you took a full load. That varies from 8 to 12 cord depending on the logger.
> 
> I'll stick to my own trees.  Got plenty.
> 
> ...




We have the control set up on a cleaning schedule of every 600 hours for first. We'll see how they do. By that I mean an actual cleaning where you open it up and physically remove what has not been automatically removed to the on board ash container.
These boiler will go through a self clean cycle at every start up or every 6 hours of run time automatically. During that cycle it dumps the firepot contents, scrapes the flue tubes and runs the ash removal augers to move ashes into the container.
Last winter I let mine run for about 1000 hours before I actually opened it up and cleaned it. At that point there was the equivalent of a 10 quart pail of ashes in the ash container and the fire box combined. They seem to burn extremely clean so far.


----------



## mr.fixit (Oct 4, 2013)

Heaterman you are lucky to have your sons working with you.How old are they?
I would love to have any of my kids help me in the cabinet shop but none of them have any interest in it right now,maybe when they get older.

I wonder if we could learn a thing or two from these pellet boilers and the frequency that they auto clean the HX area,was it every 6hrs?

I know my boiler always seems to run so much better after a good cleaning of the ashes and the HX tubes.
I think this season I will try to do it weekly.


----------



## heaterman (Oct 4, 2013)

mr.fixit said:


> Heaterman you are lucky to have your sons working with you.How old are they?
> I would love to have any of my kids help me in the cabinet shop but none of them have any interest in it right now,maybe when they get older.
> 
> I wonder if we could learn a thing or two from these pellet boilers and the frequency that they auto clean the HX area,was it every 6hrs?
> ...




Matt is 28 and Andy is 33. Andy has been with me since right after college. (2 year HVAC course at Ferris State here in Michigan) Matt played basketball at Muskegon Community college for a couple years after high school, then worked as a surveyor doing road construction and general property boundary work, then worked for another HVAC company that specializes in ground source heat pumps off and on until coming back "home" this past winter. Both of them are experienced beyond their years and usually find themselves "helping" the instructor at various classes they attend. 

Your question about cleaning is a good one and your observation about how your boiler runs after cleaning is 100% accurate. My humble opinion is that cleaning of the flue tubes should be automated and built into the program on all solid fuel boilers. They all "run better" when clean.   .......that reminds me ...... I gotta quiz one of the son in laws about whether he has cleaned his Econoburn yet.......lol


----------



## Karl_northwind (Oct 4, 2013)

y'know, a bulk hopper would be great, but if you have to load it from bags, you could load the bags into a hopper that augers them into the top of the bulk bin, and then auger them from the bulk bin into the top of the Windhager hoppers.  it's a farm, those guys know augers.  someone can just walk by and push the button, and the auger runs for 30 seconds and then stops.  

Are you thinking you'd upgrade him when the bigger windhagers become available in the US next year?  or add another one?


----------



## flyingcow (Oct 4, 2013)

good thread, thanks for the info Heaterman.

Up here in the great north, of the Northeast, it costs about 120 a cord tree length.This is by the weighted cord,5,000 lb per cord. I paid 185 a cord processed  and delivered. this stacked up a bit more than a cord.For me, this was the best

IMO....pellets is the way to go.


----------



## heaterman (Oct 5, 2013)

Karl_northwind said:


> y'know, a bulk hopper would be great, but if you have to load it from bags, you could load the bags into a hopper that augers them into the top of the bulk bin, and then auger them from the bulk bin into the top of the Windhager hoppers.  it's a farm, those guys know augers.  someone can just walk by and push the button, and the auger runs for 30 seconds and then stops.
> 
> Are you thinking you'd upgrade him when the bigger windhagers become available in the US next year?  or add another one?



Horsepower bump is a definite possibility as the load is substantial during really cold weather. That's why we left the plugs in the end of the supply/return manifolds. Easy to just add another boiler down the road. 
I would really like to get my paws on a couple of the XL BioWins. They are autofeed only and have to set up to fill from a bunk or bin. The feed apparatus is integral to the boiler. No hand fill hopper choice.


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Oct 5, 2013)

JP11 said:


> The idea of pellets in bulk sure is appealing for someone that wants to get off oil, and keep their money local.  How long do you expect one of these boilers to be able to run before they NEED to be cleaned out.  I know they have a bag type system that seems to be quick and easy to clean.  Just wonder how JQPublic would react to the mtx requirements.
> 
> JP


 
From feedback we received on the 15 or 16 BioWINs that were installed as pilot projects and worked last winter it looks like on average the ash canister on the BioWIN260 is full after burning around 3 tons of pellets.
I the time of empting the ash canister it is also recommended to clean the burn pot and air pin.
Both can be done in less then 10 minutes.


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Oct 5, 2013)

I had a chance to swing by a Windhager BioWIN260 earlier today and made some pictures of the inside ash bin.
The user interface told me it consumed 0.21 short tons of pellets; that is 420 Lbs or around 10.5 bags
The system started up around Aug 26th and is since then primarily heating the DHW


----------



## flyingcow (Oct 5, 2013)

PassionForFire&Water said:


> From feedback we received on the 15 or 16 BioWINs that were installed as pilot projects and worked last winter it looks like on average the ash canister on the BioWIN260 is full after burning around 3 tons of pellets.
> I the time of empting the ash canister it is also recommended to clean the burn pot and air pin.
> Both can be done in less then 10 minutes.




And it takes me about 30 plus minutes to clean my gassifier. Scrub tubes, etc....but keep in mind I'm not all that fast. And i seem to recall not that much splitting and handling of pellets vs cord wood.  Seems like a win win. 

this got me to thinking....best way to save money and get plenty of heat is to burn our Congressmen/politicians? Just thinking.


----------



## heaterman (Oct 5, 2013)

flyingcow said:


> And it takes me about 30 plus minutes to clean my gassifier. Scrub tubes, etc....but keep in mind I'm not all that fast. And i seem to recall not that much splitting and handling of pellets vs cord wood.  Seems like a win win.
> 
> this got me to thinking....best way to save money and get plenty of heat is to burn our Congressmen/politicians? Just thinking.




Probably high moisture level and very low BTU content. Not worth the effort to cut split and stack.......


----------



## Frozen Canuck (Oct 5, 2013)

Gee...I thought that cutting & splitting would be where most of the fun was.


----------



## DBNH22 (Oct 7, 2013)

flyingcow said:


> And it takes me about 30 plus minutes to clean my gassifier. Scrub tubes, etc....but keep in mind I'm not all that fast. And i seem to recall not that much splitting and handling of pellets vs cord wood.  Seems like a win win.
> 
> *this got me to thinking....best way to save money and get plenty of heat is to burn our Congressmen/politicians? Just thinking*.



Talk about lobbing a softball over the plate.  I'm surprised no one's taken a swing at that one yet.  I thought about it but it's best if I don't start down that road because I might not be able to stop.


----------



## heaterman (Oct 11, 2013)

Back on topic............here's a little info update.

The boilers are on track to use about $515 worth of pellets per month for the current load, which has pretty much been domestic hot water only. This compares with LP gas bills that averaged about $930 per month using the gas boiler for water heating only.
Not too shabby.


----------



## jebatty (Oct 12, 2013)

> Not too shabby.


 Exactly right. Biomass pays big dividends vs all fossil fuels provided there is local, dependable supply. Transportation costs are always a key factor. Plus, using locally supplied pellet biomass provides jobs for local families and supports the local economy, a win-win on all fronts.

A few calculations to help me understand the operation. 400 gal of water, 3x/day, 170F: 400 x 8.34 x 225 x 3 = 2,251,800 btu/day = 93,825 btu/hr to heat the dhw. I'm assuming the water is supplied from a well at about 45F. I think the 260 is rated at 25.9 kWatt = 88,000 btuH max output, so using two boilers allows each to operate continuously at around 55-60% rated capacity (after considering radiation losses), which to me seems a pretty good sweet spot with good excess capacity if needed, and in a crunch one boiler can just about meet the need if the other is down for maintenance. Use of pellets from a hopper can be a substitute for a higher rated boiler with adequate storage, drawing from storage between boiler fuelings. For the pellet boiler the pellets are the storage. 

I understand the practical difficulties that existed with the Garn, which is an excellent boiler when used in a batch burn operation and when continuous very hot water (170F in this application) is not needed, and the difficulties that arise when the Garn is operated by a variable staff not well trained in proper fueling and maintenance. The staff issues likely would exist with any cordwood fueled boiler, but they can be overcome with proper staff training.

I like the automated ash removal and normal cleaning with the 260's, and I agree that automating these jobs is a big plus. The Wood Gun with its ash collection system comes close to this outcome because it can be operated for quite a long period of time between the times when more complete cleaning is needed. 

This has been an interesting thread to follow. It also will be interesting to see how the 260's fair over the long term and what issues, if any, may arise after a couple of years in operation. Keep up the good work, Heaterman.


----------



## ewdudley (Oct 12, 2013)

You lost me on this number:


jebatty said:


> 225


----------



## heaterman (Oct 12, 2013)

A couple notes.....

I calculated the btu load at about 1.2MM per day for the 3x per day wash cycle. There is a little heat reclaiming from the refrigeration built into his system so the incoming water temp is usually between 70-90*.
What I did not add into that overall calc was misc hot water use around the farm and the commercial sized washing machine that runs 24/7. The farm uses cloth towels to clean the udders and 1100 x 3 =3300 towels which are the size of a large dish rag. 1 towel per cow...I think they can load about 100 in one batch so the washer is running non stop as near as I can figure. There is also a power washer in the machinery clean up area that gulps about 4gpm from the hot water storage. No way to figure that load on a gpm per day because of variable use. You can imagine though how much hot water they go through when hosing off a 6,000 gallon manure spreader........

From what I have observed, the Windhagers run at 100% fire for about 3 hours after each wash cycle and then throttle back. We have them running at a setpoint spread of 5*. One at 170 the other at 175*. When I get a chance to stop by and take a peek at them during non-recovery periods I find them both modulating at a system temp of 175-178*. The boiler with the lower setpoint will be at 30% fire and the higher one will be running at 45% +/- a couple %.  With some refinements to the system control side of things, I think we can get the pellet consumption down even more. 
It will be a positive for this particular system to be able to maintain a consistent water temp from the boilers. The "care and feeding" the Garns were receiving did not make for stable supply temps. 

I hope to get my hands on a data logger that Windhager has available and be able to track actual run time/firing rate numbers. That will be really interesting.
Martin Westermayer from the factory is going to be traveling with us 3 days next week and this installation is one we will be visiting. We'll see what he has to say about it.

Regarding the Garns.........I can't begin to remember how many different people we "trained" over the 4 years these units were in operation. You could see that for more than a few the "lights were on but no one was home" to put it politely....
With proper care and feeding the Garn/cordwood combo would definitely be lower cost to fuel but the personnel just did not capable of getting to that point.
The owner still has a 1500 heating his house, detached garage and a 36x60 machinery repair shop and loves it. He or his kids fire it personally and it does a great job with virtually no issues.


----------



## jebatty (Oct 12, 2013)

> 225


 I assumed well water "in" at 45F and hot water out at 170F, delta-T = 55 +70 = 125 and my fogged head saw this at 225. Good catch. The corrected cac = 1.25MM/day at 45F "in" water. As Heaterman states, the "in" water temp is higher and the calc accordingly would be lower.


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Oct 12, 2013)

heaterman said:


> Back on topic............here's a little info update.
> 
> The boilers are on track to use about $515 worth of pellets per month for the current load, which has pretty much been domestic hot water only. This compares with LP gas bills that averaged about $930 per month using the gas boiler for water heating only.
> Not too shabby.


 
At what cost is the LP gas factored in?
Here in the North East it's around $2.65 per gallon in some areas


----------



## goosegunner (Oct 12, 2013)

PassionForFire&Water said:


> At what cost is the LP gas factored in?
> Here in the North East it's around $2.65 per gallon in some areas




Thats pretty steep!

South Central Wisconsin $1.59 /gallon

gg


----------



## heaterman (Oct 12, 2013)

PassionForFire&Water said:


> At what cost is the LP gas factored in?
> Here in the North East it's around $2.65 per gallon in some areas




I hear prices from $1.75 for big users like this customers is all the way up to $2.00+. Most of the LP companies were advertising $1.85 or 1.89 for pre season buy in.


----------



## Karl_northwind (Oct 12, 2013)

That's a slick setup.  I still haven't seen one run, but I imagine I'll see plenty at the factory and training.  I'll be there next week(austria), and will report back.  Following this project I'm certainly seeing the upsides of automatic VS hand fired systems in commercial operations.  with our dairy farms around here, I'll be making some visits. 

Cheers, 
karl


----------



## flyingcow (Oct 12, 2013)

heaterman said:


> I hear prices from $1.75 for big users like this customers is all the way up to $2.00+. Most of the LP companies were advertising $1.85 or 1.89 for pre season buy in.




maine lists as 2.67 for LP, this is of 10-07


----------



## sinnian (Oct 13, 2013)

PassionForFire&Water said:


> [quote="Who is the distributor for Windhager boilers in the US? Google didn't find it for me.



http://www.windhager.com/int_en/contact/sales-partner-europe/usa-79/[/quote]

Why didn't you just say, "I am"?


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Oct 14, 2013)

sinnian said:


> http://www.windhager.com/int_en/contact/sales-partner-europe/usa-79/


 
Why didn't you just say, "I am"?[/quote]

The www.Windhager.com website has so much more information then our own website: BioWIN, BioWIN-XL, LogWIN, pellet storage solutions, ... .


----------



## DZL_Damon (Oct 14, 2013)

flyingcow said:


> maine lists as 2.67 for LP, this is of 10-07


 
LP is so crazy on the price difference depending on how much you use, way more of a spread than fuel oil.

Our prices for a "cooking account" in the western downeast maine area is about $2.70/gallon, but if you have a heating account it is $2.35/gallon. My friend owns his own 1000 gallon tank and filled up this summer at $1.90/gallon. At work we filled up our 30,000 gallon tank at $1.25/gallon and if we purchased a month earlier we could have gotten $0.95!

In contrast, when fuel oil was about $3.70 last time I purchased it, we were getting it for between $3.07 and $3.25 at work (we were burning about 2,000,000/yr). Really not that large of a price spread.

Oddly enough, pellets in bulk offer no savings at all vs 40# bags. When we installed our pellet boiler at work (which saves us 1.2 million gallons of fuel oil a year), we were initially paying $175/ton + delivery fees that came out over $200/ton. Now we pay $195/ton + delivery fees.... I just bought the same pellets for my boiler for $210/ton in 40# bags.

Looking at cordwood... we pay *$250/cord* here in my region cut/split/delivered Unless you have your own woodlot, it's very hard to justify buying a new wood boiler vs a new pellet boiler.


----------



## heaterman (Oct 14, 2013)

We find the same to be true here. There is no cost advantage purchasing bulk pellets vs bagged. A homeowner can drive up to one of the local mills here and have them load 1 ton on their truck for $165. That is the same price they'll deliver 10 Tons directly to an end user.


----------



## thecontrolguy (Oct 16, 2013)

heaterman said:


> We have the control set up on a cleaning schedule of every 600 hours for first. We'll see how they do. By that I mean an actual cleaning where you open it up and physically remove what has not been automatically removed to the on board ash container.
> These boiler will go through a self clean cycle at every start up or every 6 hours of run time automatically. During that cycle it dumps the firepot contents, scrapes the flue tubes and runs the ash removal augers to move ashes into the container.
> Last winter I let mine run for about 1000 hours before I actually opened it up and cleaned it. At that point there was the equivalent of a 10 quart pail of ashes in the ash container and the fire box combined. They seem to burn extremely clean so far.



I was looking into pelletizing the ash from the wood heater (mine presently an old RSF 100) to spread on my hay fields. Some manufacturers actually make small pelletizers specifically for this purpose. If bound with a small amount of water, the pellets should hold up to slinging with a broadcast spreader. Ash pellets break down slowly releasing minerals onto the ground.  You might consider the free minerals as a reclaimed part of your expenses for the pellet supply. Around here, LARGE amounts of ash are considered heavy-metal laden waste    needing permitting for land application. You might look into that too. No permits for me. Anyway, there has been heaps of research into this in the Northern European countries who are applying the ash from community heating plants via many methods. Good luck with all that ash.


----------



## jebatty (Oct 16, 2013)

> Unless you have your own woodlot, it's very hard to justify buying a new wood boiler vs a new pellet boiler.


 I think this is generalizing a little too much. Assumptions are that pellets are available at a particular cost, as in your example at about $200/ton, and cord wood c/s/d at $250/ton. Where I live there are no nearby pellet plants, transportation costs are significant, and cord wood c/s/d and 1 year seasoned before delivery is about $185/cord. At these prices pellets at assumed equalized moisture content when burned of 8% have about 7800 btu/lb and wood at 20% moisture content has 6050 btu/lb. If available, pellets at $200/ton = $0.10/lb, and red oak at $185/cord = $0.05/lb. On a btu basis, red oak provides the same btu's at a cost of $0.065/lb as pellets, which results in pellets costing about 50% more than cord wood for the same btu's. In both cases labor costs would have to be included in fuel handling, which would affect the result.

But I think other costs also need to be included. For example, it takes a lot of energy with resulting CO2 to process and deliver pellets vs cord wood; it also takes time and land space to season cord wood, but the energy is provided cost-free by the sun and wind and CO2 is near 0. Handling costs would depend on local wage rates. 

And then for someone like me, my physical exercise comes from working outside, which includes the tree felling, cutting, splitting, stacking, etc. I am healthier and I have no fitness club cost, for example. These benefits are substantial and if possible to measure in $$$, the equation tips much more strongly in favor of cord wood.

My only point is that each situation is different, additional costs need to be included, and a generalization doesn't fit very well.


----------



## heaterman (Nov 23, 2013)

Just cleaned these. 912 hours of actual runtime on the right hand unit. 887 on the one on the left.

The burner door had not been opened since startup. I was pretty much amazed at the condition of the boilers and how little ash there was. 

The total pellet use between the two units was 4.92 tons and I removed approximately 15 pounds of ash. Flue temps at 100% output were still running below 240* before cleaning and they dropped down to about 225* afterwards.


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Nov 24, 2013)

heaterman said:


> Flue temps at 100% output were still running below 240* before cleaning and they dropped down to about 225* afterwards.


 
Heaterman, you are ahead of me!

What do you mean before and after cleaning?
Do you disassemble the HX cleaning mechanism and get in there with a brush?


----------



## heaterman (Nov 24, 2013)

PassionForFire&Water said:


> Heaterman, you are ahead of me!
> 
> What do you mean before and after cleaning?
> Do you disassemble the HX cleaning mechanism and get in there with a brush?






No need to disassemble the flue scrapers, or much of anything else for that matter.The flues will be clean and all you do with the brush is knock the dust off the scrapers themselves.

Steps are as follows. ....you basically work from the top down.

1. Remove the 4 wing nuts holding the draft inducer plate and lift it off then lift out the plate under that, exposing the flues.
2. Use a soft bristle brush, 2" in diameter to run through the scraper openings. No need to remove the scrapers,there is just dust in there.
3. Open the burner door and use the soft bristle brush provided to wipe the dust off the interior surfaces of the boiler and the door.
4. Use a vacuum to remove ash from the burn pot
5. Remove the primary air "ball" and carefully clean any baked on ash with the scraper/putty knife provided. (It's ceramic)
6. Use the tool provided to lift out the cast iron burner ring and vacuum under that.
7.Clean the secondary air holes in the burnpot if needed.
8.Clean out the front and rear ash collection areas at the bottom of the boiler with a vacuum.
9.Remove the on board ash container and dispose of the ashes in there.

Reassemble and push the start button to light the boiler back up......see you again in 6-800 hours.

Takes about 15-20 minutes. It truly is that easy.


----------



## DZL_Damon (Nov 25, 2013)

15lbs of ash is good for how much wood you've burned! I'm wondering if others that run their boilers at lower firing rates experience the same accumulation or more? I'm sure those BioWINS are most efficient at high fire like your units get to experience, plus higher fan rates for pushing fly ash out better vs settling.

I just cleaned mine yesterday after only a ton and was amazed. The ash bin was 3/4 - 7/8 full and probably weighed 15-20lbs, the burn pot did not need any scrapping as the self cleaning soot blower works well. The "tubes" had about 1/32-1/16" of perpetual ash on them that the moving turbulators can not scrape off (similar action to the BioWIN's). It's light/fluffy and wipes off with a broom if wanted, no scrapping needed. The whole unit was disassembled, cleaned, and back online in 10 minutes. I'd say there was about 1 cup of ash was knocked out of the unit that was not in the ash pan.






jebatty said:


> I think this is generalizing a little too much. Assumptions are that pellets are available at a particular cost, as in your example at about $200/ton, and cord wood c/s/d at $250/ton. Where I live there are no nearby pellet plants, transportation costs are significant, and cord wood c/s/d and 1 year seasoned before delivery is about $185/cord. At these prices pellets at assumed equalized moisture content when burned of 8% have about 7800 btu/lb and wood at 20% moisture content has 6050 btu/lb. If available, pellets at $200/ton = $0.10/lb, and red oak at $185/cord = $0.05/lb. On a btu basis, red oak provides the same btu's at a cost of $0.065/lb as pellets, which results in pellets costing about 50% more than cord wood for the same btu's. In both cases labor costs would have to be included in fuel handling, which would affect the result.
> 
> But I think other costs also need to be included. For example, it takes a lot of energy with resulting CO2 to process and deliver pellets vs cord wood; it also takes time and land space to season cord wood, but the energy is provided cost-free by the sun and wind and CO2 is near 0. Handling costs would depend on local wage rates.
> 
> ...


 

You're right, additional costs are variable but I did not think my quote was too outlandish or too general. I stated it's hard to justify a new wood boiler vs a new pellet boiler unless you have your own wood yard nearby. That's my opinion and I stand by it as I did extensive research and cost analysis on my own project. If I want to get the efficiency I would get from a pellet boiler I would need a gassifier that costs at least $2000 more than my boiler did, plus I need to source a 1000 gallon tank to run it proper, insulate it, and have a place to put it all. The biggest thing I would need would be ample amounts of time for playing with wood, timing my fires to charge my tanks, and convincing my wife that this was all easier.

 I burned wood for years cutting my own wood and really did enjoy it. However, at the time I was still sailing and had 6 month of vacation a year to blow. Driving to cut wood at my camp 20 miles each way (at 20mpg x $4.00/gal of diesel) to get 3/4 to a cord of wood in my truck. Maybe 1/2 gallon of gas/oil in the saw another $2. Another gallon of diesel in the tractor to run the splitter for $4, 1.5 hours of seat time in the truck, 2 hours cutting, splitting, and throwing in the truck, another 2 hours unloading, splitting, stacking in the crib with a beer. That's pretty much a day shot to get 3/4-a cord of wood and 10,000 blackfly bites in the Maine woods. Now, aside from my jestful sarcasm I really did like it and love being outdoors and heating my home with something I gathered with my own two hands (and truck, tractor, saw, splitter... all were not free either). The wood took up a large chunk of my dooryard as well as my downstairs garage where I would stage 2 cords. It brought in an unbelievable amount of dirt into the house along with an insane amount of bugs and SPIDERS (I HATE spiders)!

Since coming ashore, I learned quickly I have to work 50-65 hrs a week to make anywhere near the same income as sailing. Plus when I'm not in the plant, the pager/phone can go off at any minute and back to the plant I go. Purchasing wood the last 2 years, since I have no time to harvest my own, has been robbery! Do I think I should pay $185/cord of wood like you luckily can? Yes $250 is a rip for "Seasoned" wood that was most likely dried in a damn swamp. My seasoned wood was most likely cut in January and split onto the truck before they delivered it judging how I couldn't find one check line in any stick. So the 22.5MMbtu of usable heat in a cord of Red Oak just got cut to 16-18MMBTU of usable heat. Or, i can get 16.5MMbtu/ton of usable heat from my pellets that I paid $177/ton for (Useable heat from Maine Wood Pellets and Maine Wood Fuels is averaged at 8250 btu/lb over the past 8 analysis from the samples I send to the lab every quarter). To boot, I can stack 4 tons of pellets in my 2 cord crib downstairs with NO SPIDERS!

Generally, I save a TON of time and space while paying less per recieved btu's of heat. The additional energy/CO2 used to produce the pellets is marginable since they use sawdust waste to run the kilns at MWP. I found an article that showed about 3-4% of the pellets energy is used to make/transport it... from Canada to Sweden!

Even if I pay more/btu out of pocket, my time saved to do such while still burning a (nearly) carbon neutral product and supporting local business's vs foreign oil/gas companies is very worth it... Just like the farmer that put in the x2 BioWINS this thread is originally about. And as I stated, I would have bought the gassifier I set out to initially purchase if I had my own wood lot and been oblivious to how easy cheap wood heat CAN be.


----------



## Frozen Canuck (Nov 26, 2013)

Well said. Add to that the fact that most members could at the very least earn burger flipping money (currently $16/hr here with the help wanted sign always up) & all that _cheap wood_ really isn't.

If I had all those hours back to bill out I could likely afford an additional 2 week vacation for every year I cut & stacked. Hard to justify cordwood on an economic basis. Too much time.


----------



## maple1 (Nov 27, 2013)

I can justify it pretty easily here.

Strictly on a dollar/time basis, if I take X hours of spare time to make Y cords of fuel, that displaces Z amount of fossil fuels (or pellets) I would have to buy.

If I didn't take that spare time & do that, the Z amount would have to come from somewhere out of our existing income - and we only have so much coming in. So using that spare time like that is pretty equivalent to earning decent wages at a second job. I don't think I'd take a burger-flipping second job [nowhere near $16/hr here] if I had to turn around & hand all the money I earned from that over to a fuel oil company.

Aside from that, I am getting much needed exercise (spend way too much time in front of a computer during the week), in a way that I really enjoy (I spend my resting moments during the week thinking only of which spot I'll hit next), and improving our property in cleaning up the rubbish & trail-making.

Plus it's a hoot winding the Stihls out & making sawdust fly - on my own time & when I feel like it.

To each their own in their own different circumstances though - I have no doubt that eventually my circumstances will change and I won't be in the woods like I am now. But right now I'm making the most of it and wouldn't trade it for anything. Well, except maybe for a winning loto ticket.


----------



## heaterman (Dec 30, 2013)

The boys went to the farm and cleaned these for the 3rd time since fire up. Both boilers now have over 2100 hours of run time on them since installation and a large share of that is at 100% output. We rarely see them modulated down as the load is pretty near constant.
They have used almost 19 tons of pellets between them.

Yes I said 19 tons. In a little over 3 months of run time. Looks like my original estimate of 35 tons per year is going to be out the window. 
Do the math and you see that they have quite literally not quit firing since we started them up.

They are working very hard with a huge load but have shown no signs of stress. There have been no failures of any kind. They just sit there and work and THAT is how a piece of heating equipment should function.


----------



## heaterman (Dec 30, 2013)

Karl_northwind said:


> y'know, a bulk hopper would be great, but if you have to load it from bags, you could load the bags into a hopper that augers them into the top of the bulk bin, and then auger them from the bulk bin into the top of the Windhager hoppers.  it's a farm, those guys know augers.  someone can just walk by and push the button, and the auger runs for 30 seconds and then stops.
> 
> Are you thinking you'd upgrade him when the bigger windhagers become available in the US next year?  or add another one?



The owner is tickled to death with the way they are working Karl. He is putting up a new maintenance building this spring and wants one of these moved there to heat the floor. He will probably put one of the XL series Windhagers in its place in this building. He's also going to install one in his house at some point in 2014.  

As far as moving pellets is concerned, augers are not the way to go. They grind up the pellets far too much and create a lot of fine pieces. Pellets are best moved or transported with air.


----------



## flyingcow (Dec 30, 2013)

Best way to for heating equipment to run is WFO....


----------



## jebatty (Dec 31, 2013)

I love the passion in this forum. Nothing better than a satisfied wood or pellet burner with high efficiency and quality equipment. Options are great. No one choice or solution for every need.


----------



## heaterman (Jan 1, 2014)

One can only wish Jim, that the general population shared that same passion about renewable resources as the crew here. 
I get a bang out of this place.


----------



## Medman (Jan 2, 2014)

This is a great thread! Here in Northern Ontario a pellet mill is set to open soon (in Wawa).  I am waiting to see what prices will be like for pellets, but I am considering switching to pellets if it is in line with cordwood.  The big issue here (for me) is the availability of log length hardwood, since most commercial operators get more money chipping hardwood into hogfuel than selling it in log length. 

Thanks for all the info, Heaterman. Much appreciated!


----------



## JP11 (Jan 2, 2014)

You can't blame the loggers.  They sell what's best.  Seems to be a lot less waste chipping whole trees in the woods.  Limbs become money in the bank instead of something to get rid of.

Don't they take chips, then grind them to make pellets?  Seems to be that the 'system' is much more efficient then producing firewood.  The handling aspects alone of pellets is way better.  I guess the pellets need to be protected more, they can't get wet like cord wood can.

I hope that large physical plants keep getting built with chip boilers.  Homes can use pellets.  Doing this, and with the abundance of natural gas in this country… we really could be energy independent.

JP


----------



## heaterman (Feb 16, 2014)

Update.

Cleaned again 2/13/14

One boiler has 3281 hours and 15.54 tons through it, the other is at 3210 hours and 14.73 tons.
No issues or failures of any kind so far.
Just a routine cleaning about every 800 hours. This is the 4th one since start up about the end of September.

These boilers both have about 2 years of what I would consider pretty normal fuel consumption through them and have logged as much run time in a little over 4 months as the one in my house has in a full year.

I should say we had one "issue" with the last cleaning........
My boys started the vac on fire due to not letting the boilers complete the burnout cycle. They had places to go and things to do and found out there are some things you can't rush..


----------



## Downeast Farmer (Feb 16, 2014)

jebatty said:


> But I think other costs also need to be included. For example, it takes a lot of energy with resulting CO2 to process and deliver pellets vs cord wood; it also takes time and land space to season cord wood, but the energy is provided cost-free by the sun and wind and CO2 is near 0. Handling costs would depend on local wage rates.



This piece in The Economist: http://www.economist.com/news/business/21575771-environmental-lunacy-europe-fuel-future argues that pellets may be very far from a carbon-neutral fuel, although cord wood isn't either, as I reflect on whenever I fuel up the chain saw or tractor.  They're both greener than fossil fuels, especially when burned in efficient appliances.


----------



## Chicken Farmer (Feb 16, 2014)

So, what happened to the Garns that were removed?


----------



## Buzz Saw (Feb 16, 2014)

Heaterman, I thought each appliance had to have it's own flue.  How are you able to hook to two burners up to one chimney,without breaking code, like in the picture?   Did I miss something?


----------



## heaterman (Feb 16, 2014)

Chicken Farmer said:


> So, what happened to the Garns that were removed?



So far we rebuilt one and it wound up here ...   www.reefsystems.com   ... The purchaser had actually made a deal for it back in November but was going to wait for delivery until he got a new shop building constructed.

He called me Saturday morning the 25th of January and before we spoke for 15 seconds I could hear panic in his voice. He has to keep his business at about 78* and it's basically a glass greenhouse type structure. Scads of heat loss.
He had ordered propane on the 21st and his gas company said OK no problem. Well by Friday, he had no delivery nor had he heard from them so he called.
This time they told him they would not be able to deliver any fuel until the 4th of February and it would only be 200 gallons maximum. He figured he had enough fuel to last until maybe February 1 at the latest.

So he called and asked if there was any way we could get the Garn to him or if he could come and pick it up. After talking for a few minutes and getting a grasp of his situation, I told him I would call in my boys, finish the overhaul on his Garn and haul it down to him. It was obvious that he had a lot of prep to do in order to be ready to even be able to use the Garn if it was there.
Andy and Matt came in about 10AM and we finished up the refurb in our shop, loaded it on the trailer and it was ready to go by about 9:30PM Saturday evening. I got a few hours of sleep and took off at 4AM Sunday morning. Made it to his place about 2PM. (rotten travel conditions) We got it off the trailer and slid into a temporary structure he and some friends threw together and I did a quick and dirty piping job on it Monday morning.
It is heating his place as we speak.

I have to put in a plug for the guy here.....If any of you are into salt water aquariums Todd is and absolute fountain of knowledge about them. He grows and propagates all kinds of coral, starfish, clams, and other marine animals and fish. If you EVER get in the Columbus Ohio area, it would be worth your time just to stop in a see his facility there in New Albany. The first thing you see when you walk into his place is a salt water tank containing enough gallons of water that you could use it for backup heat storage for the Garn. ITS HUGE! and it's beautiful.


The second on is also sold but won't go out until this spring after we do a complete refit on that one also.


----------



## heaterman (Feb 16, 2014)

Buzz Saw said:


> Heaterman, I thought each appliance had to have it's own flue.  How are you able to hook to two burners up to one chimney,without breaking code, like in the picture?   Did I miss something?



Nope. Appliances that utilize the same fuel type can be vented in a common flue. The codes have "issues" about mixing different fuels in the same flue for a few reasons.


----------



## Spartan (Feb 17, 2014)

Downeast Farmer said:


> This piece in The Economist: http://www.economist.com/news/business/21575771-environmental-lunacy-europe-fuel-future argues that pellets may be very far from a carbon-neutral fuel, although cord wood isn't either, as I reflect on whenever I fuel up the chain saw or tractor.  They're both greener than fossil fuels, especially when burned in efficient appliances.



Carbon neutral....my butt.

I borrowed a pellet mill I'm playing around with it. I barely can get out 350 pounds an hour out of 20hp motor. That's not including grinding and ancillary losses. All told, I'm probably using up about 25 kw per per 350 pounds or about 14 pounds per kw. There is no transportation on this either since it's in-house waste. None of that would apply to a gasifier.

Okay...I just looked it up and fell off my chair......


_Survey results indicated that pellet producers who harvest their own timber for feedstock used a weighted average of 1.06 m3 of hardwood and 0.62 m3 of softwood as raw material to produce one short ton of wood pellets. The CORRIM Phase II average density values for hardwood and
softwood timber in the (Northeast/North Central) United States were 580 and 380 kg/m3, respectively. 

In order to dry the wet coproduct feedstock prior to pelletization, 149.78 kg of additional wood was combusted, resulting in a total wood consumption of 1,000.18 kg to produce one short ton of
wood pellets. Pellet producers who used wet coproduct feedstock used a weighted average of 477.00 kg of hardwood and 371.66 kg of softwood as raw material to produce one short ton of wood pellets. An additional 136.21 kg of wood was required to dry the wet coproduct feedstock
before pelletization, resulting in a total wood consumption of 984.87 kg to produce one short ton of wood pellets. Pellet producers who used source-dried feedstock used a weighted
average of 849.28 kg of dry hardwood as raw material for one short ton of wood pellets. An additional 160.50 kg of wood was consumed along the life cycle to dry the raw materials, resulting in a total wood consumption of 1,009.78 kg to produce one short ton of wood pellets. The average wood in–to–wood out ratio for producing wood pellets was
found to be 1.18:1.

Here is the link.....

http://www.corrim.org/pubs/articles/2012/FPJ_vol62_num04/06_FPJ-vol62-num04-2012.pdf_

18% of it's energy is wasted to dry it and probably another 4% to make it and probably another 3% to transport it around. I have no problem with it but it certainly doesn't sound "green" to me.


----------



## hyfire (Feb 17, 2014)

Very nice install..


----------



## heaterman (Feb 17, 2014)

Spartan said:


> Carbon neutral....my butt.
> 
> I borrowed a pellet mill I'm playing around with it. I barely can get out 350 pounds an hour out of 20hp motor. That's not including grinding and ancillary losses. All told, I'm probably using up about 25 kw per per 350 pounds or about 14 pounds per kw. There is no transportation on this either since it's in-house waste. None of that would apply to a gasifier.
> 
> ...




Nothing is carbon neutral except everyone living in someplace like Costa Rica.  Nuclear comes the closest and we all know how popular that is.

There is one company up here (Kirtland Pellets) that has a unique approach to "feedstock". From what I understand, they mix hardwood, oak mainly, with leftovers from logging operation and have machinery that goes out to landing yards and grinds the tops and scrap wood on site then they haul it back to their mill for processing.
They specialize in harvesting the leftovers from all the stands of red pine here in Northern Michigan and grind up the branches, needles and all. Their pellet is a little lighter per cubic foot but they burn very clean and hot from what I have seen in my own boiler. You can smell the pine in it when you open a bag. A large portion of their product comes from waste that would normally just lay in the woods and rot.


----------



## DZL_Damon (Feb 17, 2014)

Spartan said:


> Carbon neutral....my butt.
> 
> I borrowed a pellet mill I'm playing around with it. I barely can get out 350 pounds an hour out of 20hp motor. That's not including grinding and ancillary losses. All told, I'm probably using up about 25 kw per per 350 pounds or about 14 pounds per kw. There is no transportation on this either since it's in-house waste. None of that would apply to a gasifier.
> 
> ...


 
Define "Green".


----------



## maple1 (Feb 17, 2014)

What's a 'short ton'?

Is that like a bush rick?


----------



## DZL_Damon (Feb 17, 2014)

maple1 said:


> What's a 'short ton'?
> 
> Is that like a bush rick?


 
I was confused why they did this as well.... they had everything in SI units, but a short ton is a traditional 2,000lbs. Called a short ton to differentiate from the (mostly) maritime term of a long ton (2200 lbs). A metric ton is 2204lbs which is very close.


----------



## Spartan (Feb 17, 2014)

heaterman said:


> Nothing is carbon neutral except everyone living in someplace like Costa Rica.  Nuclear comes the closest and we all know how popular that is.
> 
> There is one company up here (Kirtland Pellets) that has a unique approach to "feedstock". From what I understand, they mix hardwood, oak mainly, with leftovers from logging operation and have machinery that goes out to landing yards and grinds the tops and scrap wood on site then they haul it back to their mill for processing.
> They specialize in harvesting the leftovers from all the stands of red pine here in Northern Michigan and grind up the branches, needles and all. Their pellet is a little lighter per cubic foot but they burn very clean and hot from what I have seen in my own boiler. You can smell the pine in it when you open a bag. A large portion of their product comes from waste that would normally just lay in the woods and rot.



That is a great way to use something that was going to be forest waste. 

I have absolutely NO problem with what you did and using wood for it's energy. NONE. ZERO. NADA. What irks me is the head snapping hypocrisy of what is going on here in Canada. Companies are cutting down huge swaths of forests to make pellets and then ship them to Europe as "green" fuel  These European uber hypocrites are the same people whose scream at poor natives for cutting down the rain forest.......while feeding their stoves with swaths of Canadian forests.

Anywho.....sorry, I diverted this thread a bit. I love what you did with your install. Unless I missed it somewhere, the next step would be to install a a silo and buy pellets in bulk. There is a cost of bagging and storage for "bags" versus making a deal with a pellet mill and getting delivery in bulk by a dump truck. Since your sons are with you and it's generational maybe there is some logic in vertically integrating by investing in a large silo and buying pellets in bulk. Better yet, off season.

BTW....looking at silos here.....

http://www.moylangrainsilos.com/main.php?pg=price_list

A C UM 74 would hold 65 tons (pellets are 41 pounds per ft3). I'm totally guessing but if the total cost was $15k (pad included) then a $50 per ton (or more) spread off season maybe worth it.


----------



## DBNH22 (Feb 18, 2014)

Spartan said:


> That is a great way to use something that was going to be forest waste.
> 
> I have absolutely NO problem with what you did and using wood for it's energy. NONE. ZERO. NADA. What irks me is the head snapping hypocrisy of what is going on here in Canada. Companies are cutting down huge swaths of forests to make pellets and then ship them to Europe as "green" fuel  These European uber hypocrites are the same people whose scream at poor natives for cutting down the rain forest.......while feeding their stoves with swaths of Canadian forests.



Take heart, as a Canuck your nation has a very long way to go before it reaches the levels of depravity that we, your neighbors to the south, enjoy on a daily basis.


----------



## Spartan (Feb 19, 2014)

Dana B said:


> Take heart, as a Canuck your nation has a very long way to go before it reaches the levels of depravity that we, your neighbors to the south, enjoy on a daily basis.



I love to answer that but I had my posts deleted when I made comments about the sky falling religion and the Emperor...so I say......

You have a nice pellet boiler! LOL!


----------



## M1sterM (Feb 24, 2014)

heaterman said:


> Nope. Appliances that utilize the same fuel type can be vented in a common flue. The codes have "issues" about mixing different fuels in the same flue for a few reasons.



This is for real?!  Hadn't ever heard this before (actually, the opposite).  So, if have a wood furnace in the basement, I can run a woodstove in the living room above it, on the same flue?


----------



## DZL_Damon (Feb 24, 2014)

M1sterM said:


> This is for real?!  Hadn't ever heard this before (actually, the opposite).  So, if have a wood furnace in the basement, I can run a woodstove in the living room above it, on the same flue?


Legal, but your insurance company doesn't like it.


----------



## heaterman (Feb 25, 2014)

M1sterM said:


> This is for real?!  Hadn't ever heard this before (actually, the opposite).  So, if have a wood furnace in the basement, I can run a woodstove in the living room above it, on the same flue?



Do your research on this in your own locality but I do not believe there are any issues with NFPA or the national code bodies. 

That being said.........the critical things with multiple appliances in the same flue are of course draft and overall flue capacity. The devil himself is in the details here so don't just assume it will work even if it is legal.


----------

