# Froling S3 Turbo versus Econoburn



## Adirondacker 62 (Dec 28, 2017)

I am replacing a 40 year old Tarm boiler in my basement.  I live in the Adirondacks and was burning 9 or 10 full cords per year in the old Tarm that just gave up the ghost.  I am considering the Froling S3 Turbo or the Econoburn.  I am initially heating my two story 1,800 foot log home and eventually my detached garage and a swimming pool.  I was wondering what other people’s experiences have been with the Froling S3 Turbo and the Econoburn units.  I appreciate your your feedback in helping me make a good choice.


----------



## hiker88 (Dec 28, 2017)

Enters discussion on egg shells...

I'm an incredibly happy Froling owner so I'm biased, but I will give my opinion and answer any owner operating questions you have.  I don't talk\discussion efficiency etc., but tend to focus more on convenience.

I honestly believe the Froling Lambda type boiler is as close to "conventional" heat source convenience as you can get.  It is incredibly easy to start, and it manages itself.  Other than setting boiler set point when you first set it up, there is not much more to it than that.  I'm not argumentative by most means, but I always get a kick out of the "that's just like my boiler" posts that then go on to detail some pretty involved lighting steps in my opinion.

I am not an expert by any means but I think it safe to say the boilers have a different "approach" so to say.  The Froling is obviously electronics heavy with the main computer, variable speed fan, automated primary and secondary dampers etc.  The computer will modify each burn to ambient conditions and load.  It is also induction based, whereas the Econoburns I remember when I was researching push air I believe?  Someone more current can chime in.  I find the induction based fan makes cleaning and reloading mid burn cleaner for the surrounding space.

I have 6018 hours on the boiler and I burn year round (all through the summers yes) for all my heat and dhw.  I have had to replace 1, $8 capacitor since I owned the boiler.  I may need to replace the refractory in the next 2-3 seasons I would estimate.  I burn everything (even pine) except for Oak which doesn't seem to easy to come across - this may attribute to the way my refractory is holding up. 

If I can answer any specific question, please let me know.


----------



## Adirondacker 62 (Dec 28, 2017)

hiker88 said:


> Enters discussion on egg shells...
> 
> I'm an incredibly happy Froling owner so I'm biased, but I will give my opinion and answer any owner operating questions you have.  I don't talk\discussion efficiency etc., but tend to focus more on convenience.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for your response. I guess my first question is about the refractory and the wear on it.  Is that normal?  Are you burning wood with a higher moisture content than recommended?  That does concern me if the refractory is wearing after a year or so of constant use.  Has Tarm/Froling responded to the refractory wear?  I was impressed by the Froling and the tech aspects of the boiler as well as the ease of lighting and no cloud of wood smoke when opening the door.  We are looking at the New York State incentives to defray some of the costs and finance the project.  I have spoken to the Econoburn folks and they are very responsive.  The boiler seems to be very robustly constructed.  In regard to the Froling, having the old Tarm last 42 years is very impressive and their technology is kind of jaw dropping.  I guess I’m leaning towards the Froling and will continue my saga as the project gets moving.  Thanks again for your take on the Froling!


----------



## hiker88 (Dec 28, 2017)

Adirondacker 62 said:


> Thanks so much for your response. I guess my first question is about the refractory and the wear on it.  Is that normal?  Are you burning wood with a higher moisture content than recommended?  That does concern me if the refractory is wearing after a year or so of constant use.  Has Tarm/Froling responded to the refractory wear?  I was impressed by the Froling and the tech aspects of the boiler as well as the ease of lighting and no cloud of wood smoke when opening the door.  We are looking at the New York State incentives to defray some of the costs and finance the project.  I have spoken to the Econoburn folks and they are very responsive.  The boiler seems to be very robustly constructed.  In regard to the Froling, having the old Tarm last 42 years is very impressive and their technology is kind of jaw dropping.  I guess I’m leaning towards the Froling and will continue my saga as the project gets moving.  Thanks again for your take on the Froling!


I'm not sure if I was clear.  I expect it will be another 2 or 3 years before I might need to replace.  I have had the original since 2012.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


----------



## Adirondacker 62 (Dec 28, 2017)

hiker88 said:


> I'm not sure if I was clear.  I expect it will be another 2 or 3 years before I might need to replace.  I have had the original since 2012.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


Gotcha, that would put it at the 10 year service life expectation for the refractories.


----------



## maple1 (Dec 29, 2017)

Which one is easier to clean? Be sure not to under estimate that aspect, it will be the main issue of living with it after the new car smell thing fades away.

Do you have storage?


----------



## Adirondacker 62 (Dec 29, 2017)

maple1 said:


> Which one is easier to clean? Be sure not to under estimate that aspect, it will be the main issue of living with it after the new car smell thing fades away.
> 
> Do you have storage?


They are both fairly simple and similar with the turbolators.  I am planning on getting storage that meets the NYSERDA guidelines.  Most likely pressurized.


----------



## maple1 (Dec 29, 2017)

Not to try to throw curve balls - but are you open to others?

After 5 1/2 years with mine, the one main thing that really makes me happy with my choice is ease of service & cleaning. From what I have seen since in other postings, I don't think there is another design that is so easy to clean & maintain - just open a door and brush. Especially driven home when I see others posting about issues with hard to pull turbs or bad door gaskets or smoke leaking or needing tools to get to the tubes. Moreso present in forced draft units. Which I think the Econoburn is & the Froling isn't? Of the two units, I would go Froling on that aspect alone - I think the chances of smoke in the house is much greater with the Econoburn. 

I would consider storage a necessity - so good to hear in the plans.


----------



## Adirondacker 62 (Dec 29, 2017)

maple1 said:


> Not to try to throw curve balls - but are you open to others?
> 
> After 5 1/2 years with mine, the one main thing that really makes me happy with my choice is ease of service & cleaning. From what I have seen since in other postings, I don't think there is another design that is so easy to clean & maintain - just open a door and brush. Especially driven home when I see others posting about issues with hard to pull turbs or bad door gaskets or smoke leaking or needing tools to get to the tubes. Moreso present in forced draft units. Which I think the Econoburn is & the Froling isn't? Of the two units, I would go Froling on that aspect alone - I think the chances of smoke in the house is much greater with the Econoburn.
> 
> I would consider storage a necessity - so good to hear in the plans.


I’m open to other manufacturers for sure.  This program in NYS has approved boilers so that limits the choices.  It’s nice to get input from friends north of the border as my ancestors were from Canada and I went to grad school at McGill.  I enjoy the whole process of using wood heat from cutting and splitting to ranking.  I especially like thumbing my nose at the Petroleum Extortionists.


----------



## TCaldwell (Dec 29, 2017)

Both good pressurized units, both heat water but get there differently, and there are other manufacturers as well. Each manufacturer wants you to buy theirs, so good choice on opinions from this forum from end users. Just as importantly you should visit a few of these in use and get a feel for the ones you tend to gravitate to, for instance the more info laden lambda units or the ones with less technology attached.


----------



## Adirondacker 62 (Dec 29, 2017)

TCaldwell said:


> Both good pressurized units, both heat water but get there differently, and there are other manufacturers as well. Each manufacturer wants you to buy theirs, so good choice on opinions from this forum from end users. Just as importantly you should visit a few of these in use and get a feel for the ones you tend to gravitate to, for instance the more info laden lambda units or the ones with less technology attached.


It’s an interesting choice between boilers with  technology such as the lambda and having more potential issues/benefits versus a more user involved boiler that requires more hands on.


----------



## airlina (Dec 29, 2017)

I have been running my Econoburn 100 since 2009 . Started with it in  the basement of my 1700 sq ft log house without storage for the first 4 years, then built a boiler shed and added storage (500 gals.) after that (see photos). All i can tell you is mt experience with this boiler and the folks at Econoburn. First off its built like a tank (I had to move it twice and it was like moving a volkswagen in and out of the basement.) I am about an 1 and 1/2 hours from the factory and have been there to take the tour and see units under various stages of construction which i would recommend. Dale and Mark are the go to guys there, and their customer support  was a big part of my decision to go with the Econoburn. the Econoburn is what I would call a basic gasifier without lots of bells and whistles which is why i like it. The more complicated a boiler gets the more stuff can break and the less i understand whats going on. In a nutshell the Econoburn has a temp controller , a fan and lots of 1/4" steel. Simple like me!  As an example of their support , a guy on my road went with an Econoburn which was installed this last summer and Dale (the guy that designed the boiler) was there for the first fire to make sure everything was set up correctly. You are already probably aware of Econoburn's work with the  NYSERDA which can save you some big bucks if you follow the guidelines.  Best of luck in your decision , Bruce


----------



## Adirondacker 62 (Dec 29, 2017)

airlina said:


> I have been running my Econoburn 100 since 2009 . Started with it in  the basement of my 1700 sq ft log house without storage for the first 4 years, then built a boiler shed and added storage (500 gals.) after that (see photos). All i can tell you is mt experience with this boiler and the folks at Econoburn. First off its built like a tank (I had to move it twice and it was like moving a volkswagen in and out of the basement.) I am about an 1 and 1/2 hours from the factory and have been there to take the tour and see units under various stages of construction which i would recommend. Dale and Mark are the go to guys there, and their customer support  was a big part of my decision to go with the Econoburn. the Econoburn is what I would call a basic gasifier without lots of bells and whistles which is why i like it. The more complicated a boiler gets the more stuff can break and the less i understand whats going on. In a nutshell the Econoburn has a temp controller , a fan and lots of 1/4" steel. Simple like me!  As an example of their support , a guy on my road went with an Econoburn which was installed this last summer and Dale (the guy that designed the boiler) was there for the first fire to make sure everything was set up correctly. You are already probably aware of Econoburn's work with the  NYSERDA which can save you some big bucks if you follow the guidelines.  Best of luck in your decision , Bruce


Thanks Bruce.  I’ve been impressed with the folks at Econoburn as well as the intuitive design of their boiler.  It is a tank for sure.  The problem I have in where I live is getting a NYSERDA approved installer to put a boiler in.  There is an awesome firm in Troy, New York but that’s 3 hours away.  I’ll continue to update my saga and it’s good to hear the awesome testimonial for Econoburn.


----------



## huffdawg (Dec 29, 2017)

I’ve been running my new FHG 40/50 for almost a season and a half now. My thoughts mirror Hiker88,s.  Some other pros with the Fro. is that you can add more wood during the burning process without smoke egress. Also it doesn’t have a bypass damper to leave open after lighting a fire. (something that happened more than I’d like to admit with the EKO 40 ) that being one of the main reasons for the upgrade and the ease of operation ..  my wife and kids operate no problem at all.


----------



## Adirondacker 62 (Dec 29, 2017)

huffdawg said:


> I’ve been running my new FHG 40/50 for almost a season and a half now. My thoughts mirror Hiker88,s.  Some other pros with the Fro. is that you can add more wood during the burning process without smoke egress. Also it doesn’t have a bypass damper to leave open after lighting a fire. (something that happened more than I’d like to admit ) that being one of the main reasons and the ease of operation ..  my wife and kids operate no problem at all.


All salient points huffdawg and truth be told I’m leaning towards the Froling S3 Turbo.  Thanks for your feedback on the Froling.


----------



## goosegunner (Dec 29, 2017)

I ran a Econoburn 200 for 7 years.  I now have a Froling S3 50.  I am working tonight and just spoke with my wife. She just got done telling me how much she likes the new boiler and how easy it start and run.

I am not going to bash on the Econoburn because it is a decent boiler that is heavily built. Its simplicity in its controls is nice if you ever did have a problem. I will say that while the Econoburn is simple and robust if you are not afraid of the technology the Froling S3 is simply amazing. 

Its control from start to finish is amazing. I am still doing weighed wood burns. Conservative estimates are putting me at about a 20% reduction to heat my home. I believe there are several reasons for this. Here or some I can think of off the top of my head.

1.Lambda control that controls primary and secondary air
2.Control of fan speed to control flue temp
3.Variable pump speed
4. Pump control logic that stops circulator and restarts if boiler temp rises vs (running for hours until boiler temp drops)
5. 10 fire tubes vs 6
6. Refractory tunnel that controls flue gas


----------



## goosegunner (Dec 29, 2017)

I sent you a pm


----------



## Adirondacker 62 (Dec 29, 2017)

goosegunner said:


> I ran a Econoburn 200 for 7 years.  I now have a Froling S3 50.  I am working tonight and just spoke with my wife. She just got done telling me how much she likes the new boiler and how easy it start and run.
> 
> I am not going to bash on the Econoburn because it is a decent boiler that is heavily built. Its simplicity in its controls is nice if you ever did have a problem. I will say that while the Econoburn is simple and robust if you are not afraid of the technology the Froling S3 is simply amazing.
> 
> ...


I Thanks for your input.  I like the efficiency of the Froling and truth be told I like the ability to use data/technology to save money.


----------



## willworkforwood (Jan 1, 2018)

goosegunner said:


> I ran a Econoburn 200 for 7 years.  I now have a Froling S3 50.  ....


Just curious what the driver of that decision was for you.  Not trying to be critical in any way, but even a 30% savings in purchased wood doesn't put you in the black until many years from now.  So it must have been another factor driving this change? 

I'm also not 'defending' Econoburn, because if I was given a Mulligan, I'd certainly have chosen a Woodgun (the best choice for running with no storage).  So I can easily understand choosing a boiler other than Econoburn, but replacing your well-oiled system that includes storage is puzzling to me.   But regardless of the reason, best of luck with your new system!

And to the OP, you are almost definitely not going to chose an Econoburn, so I don't feel the need to give you feedback at this point.  However, if I'm wrong and you do want me to write something, just post back and I will do that.


----------



## goosegunner (Jan 1, 2018)

willworkforwood said:


> Just curious what the driver of that decision was for you.  Not trying to be critical in any way, but even a 30% savings in purchased wood doesn't put you in the black until many years from now.  So it must have been another factor driving this change?
> 
> I'm also not 'defending' Econoburn, because if I was given a Mulligan, I'd certainly have chosen a Woodgun (the best choice for running with no storage).  So I can easily understand choosing a boiler other than Econoburn, but replacing your well-oiled system that includes storage is puzzling to me.   But regardless of the reason, best of luck with your new system!
> 
> And to the OP, you are almost definitely not going to chose an Econoburn, so I don't feel the need to give you feedback at this point.  However, if I'm wrong and you do want me to write something, just post back and I will do that.





I was tired of shortcomings of design and wanted to try something different.  Induced draft, simple to clean, simple to light, absolute smoke free boiler room on lighting or loading, unbelievable control over boiler throughout from start to finish. Seems difficult to put a price on those. Especially if you consider possible effects on health from smoke in boiler shed before the switch.  

It is also difficult for you to predict my payback when you don't know what my cost to upgrade was. I will say it was a much smaller price than you would think for me to make the switch.


----------



## goosegunner (Jan 1, 2018)

We are having the coldest weather we have had for several years. I have complete records for daily wood burns.

With temperatures that we are currently having the previous boiler would burn 190-210 pounds of would per day.

I am currently burning 140-150 pounds per day, usually it is 140 by burning 70 in the morning and 70 in the evening. I like to do 2 burns because I have forced air with a coil.


----------



## jebatty (Jan 2, 2018)

willworkforwood said:


> I'd certainly have chosen a Woodgun (the best choice for running with no storage).



My experience with the WoodGun is the E500. First operated without storage, works but ... ignition after an idle period was noisy, smelly and sometime near explosive. Then storage added and the WG now operates idle free. In fact, the people who regularly operate it call it the Beast. During below 0F periods it will burn 100lbs of wood per hour continuously, for about a 500,000 btuh output. I recommend storage with the WG as well as with any other gasification boiler.


----------



## maple1 (Jan 2, 2018)

willworkforwood said:


> I'm also not 'defending' Econoburn, because if I was given a Mulligan, I'd certainly have chosen a Woodgun (the best choice for running with no storage).  So I can easily understand choosing a boiler other than Econoburn, but replacing your well-oiled system that includes storage is puzzling to me.



What in your opinion would make the Econoburn a worst choice than a WG?


----------



## willworkforwood (Jan 2, 2018)

goosegunner said:


> ...  It is also difficult for you to predict my payback when you don't know what my cost to upgrade was. I will say it was a much smaller price than you would think for me to make the switch.


Well, you're absolutely correct that I was presuming a fairly large $$ expense.  So I'll stand corrected and remind myself not to make assumptions such as this!



maple1 said:


> What in your opinion would make the Econoburn a worst choice than a WG?


My opinion is based primarily on the experience of a friend who owned a WG for 26 years (he bought one of the first units).  The key difference of the WG versus my EB is it's ability to shut off air almost completely, thereby putting the fire down quickly, and not losing nearly as much up the stack during idle.  He was EXTREMELY pleased with his WG for it's entire life, and only gave it up due to no longer being able to process firewood.

And I also factor in the many prior reports on this forum of multiple happy WG owners (muncybob, ...), who gave very positive reviews of their boiler's performance.  Yes, there is also Fred's well-known story, but the overwhelming evidence I have tells me the WG would be a better choice than my EB, IF RUNNING WITHOUT STORAGE.


----------



## Adirondacker26 (Aug 7, 2018)

Adirondacker 62 said:


> I am replacing a 40 year old Tarm boiler in my basement.  I live in the Adirondacks and was burning 9 or 10 full cords per year in the old Tarm that just gave up the ghost.  I am considering the Froling S3 Turbo or the Econoburn.  I am initially heating my two story 1,800 foot log home and eventually my detached garage and a swimming pool.  I was wondering what other people’s experiences have been with the Froling S3 Turbo and the Econoburn units.  I appreciate your your feedback in helping me make a good choice.


  Having a Froling s3 turbo installed with solar integration.  Going to be a big step forward in getting my heating costs under control.  The guys brought the two storage tanks today and piping will be under way tomorrow. After a lot of research I have found that the two most important things in setting up a proper system for your needs are: #1- Getting an experienced, knowledgable installer with a track record, a good reputation, and a love for what he does.  #2- Getting an experienced, knowledgable installer with a track record, a good reputation, and a love for what he does.  If you can do that, you will save months of research and time that could have been spent doing more productive things, and you will have the right system that fits you and your home.  Period. I’ll put some posts up as things progress.


----------



## salecker (Aug 8, 2018)

Adirondacker26 said:


> Having a Froling s3 turbo installed with solar integration.  Going to be a big step forward in getting my heating costs under control.  The guys brought the two storage tanks today and piping will be under way tomorrow. After a lot of research I have found that the two most important things in setting up a proper system for your needs are: #1- Getting an experienced, knowledgable installer with a track record, a good reputation, and a love for what he does.  #2- Getting an experienced, knowledgable installer with a track record, a good reputation, and a love for what he does.  If you can do that, you will save months of research and time that could have been spent doing more productive things, and you will have the right system that fits you and your home.  Period. I’ll put some posts up as things progress.


I would love to see the solar part.That is my next project i want to add solar collection to my system.


----------



## Adirondacker26 (Aug 8, 2018)

salecker said:


> I would love to see the solar part.That is my next project i want to add solar collection to my system.


They will start next week and I’ll get some pictures.


----------



## TCaldwell (Aug 9, 2018)

What company is doing the install?


----------



## Adirondacker26 (Aug 9, 2018)

The radiant store out of the capital district is doing the install.  Ben has got the 1000 liter tanks positioned, insulated, and has begun the piping.
I have been doing the jack hammering for the incoming solar lines and access to the chimney.  I have to go through 22” of masonry to get to the chimney and then a 6” ID (ceramic?) pipe goes in. My problem is how do I seal that pipe in the wall and chimney when the pipe itself is in the way?  I have to do something to stop air from getting in the flue around the outside of the pipe. 


TCaldwell said:


> What company is doing the install?


----------



## maple1 (Aug 10, 2018)

No isolation valves? I put them almost everywhere, starting at all the tank ports.

Interesting looking tanks. Are those a Froling product? Or? Looks like they give up a bit of volume above the top ports - but maybe there is internal piping too (dips or risers). Looks like they fit the space pretty good though.


----------



## salecker (Aug 10, 2018)

Hopefully they will store equal heat in each tank they way they are plumbed.
My system was designed where tank #1 is teed from 11/2 line,then tank 2 is fed from a 11/4 line from the tee and the return goes to tank 2 with 11/2 with a t and 11/4 to tank 1
This configuration makes sure that the charging and depletion of the tanks is almost exactly equal.Last year i added temp gauges after 71/2 years of running,and by George it works.


----------



## maple1 (Aug 10, 2018)

Reverse return is a pretty simple way to bring balance also, piping can stay same size.


----------



## Adirondacker26 (Aug 10, 2018)

maple1 said:


> No isolation valves? I put them almost everywhere, starting at all the tank ports.
> 
> Interesting looking tanks. Are those a Froling product? Or? Looks like they give up a bit of volume above the top ports - but maybe there is internal piping too (dips or risers). Looks like they fit the space pretty good though.


The tanks have 2 coils each, baffles, and internal piping.  They are StorMaxx-CTEK tanks from SunMaxx solar hot water solutions.  Made in Germany.  13 ports per tank.


----------



## Chris Hoskin (Aug 13, 2018)

Adirondacker26 said:


> The radiant store out of the capital district is doing the install.  Ben has got the 1000 liter tanks positioned, insulated, and has begun the piping.
> I have been doing the jack hammering for the incoming solar lines and access to the chimney.  I have to go through 22” of masonry to get to the chimney and then a 6” ID (ceramic?) pipe goes in. My problem is how do I seal that pipe in the wall and chimney when the pipe itself is in the way?  I have to do something to stop air from getting in the flue around the outside of the pipe.
> 
> View attachment 228665




Glad to hear you've connected with The Radiant Store.  You are in good hands with Terry and his crew.  Looking forward to seeing more pictures as the project comes together.


----------



## Adirondacker26 (Aug 13, 2018)

Chris Hoskin said:


> Glad to hear you've connected with The Radiant Store.  You are in good hands with Terry and his crew.  Looking forward to seeing more pictures as the project comes together.


Yes, I am fortunate to have Terry and Co putting this together for me. They came highly recommended and now that the job is started, I know why. 
The solar panels and piping were dropped off today so we are getting closer.  The Froling S3, coupled with the solar hot water and storage is going to make my life here on the farm much easier. I plan to take full advantage of this state of the art technology.


----------



## Adirondacker26 (Aug 17, 2018)

Ken and Fin installed the solar panels yesterday.


----------



## Chris Hoskin (Aug 17, 2018)

Adirondacker26 said:


> Ken and Fin installed the solar panels yesterday.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




looking good!  Reminds me of a solar design class I took back in the day - it was pointed out that when PV panels get hot their output goes down.  One of the students asked, naturally, "why not put them in the shade then?".


----------



## Adirondacker26 (Aug 21, 2018)

Chris Hoskin said:


> looking good!  Reminds me of a solar design class I took back in the day - it was pointed out that when PV panels get hot their output goes down.  One of the students asked, naturally, "why not put them in the shade then?".


Makes sense to me!  You probably have forgotten more than I’ll ever know about this but for those who are interested in solar energy, these panels don’t produce electricity, but hot water instead. They are commercial grade and with this configuration, a 20 degree gain is realized, ( on average) no matter what the input temperature is of the circulating glycol. More panels means more gain. The latest technology in design of the panels themselves along with computer controlled components integrated into the solar system coupled with the computer controlled variable speed boiler pump allows this hybrid system to realize a heat gain where only a few years ago, this was not possible in this part of the country. Parameters are established during initial start up by input to the computer by the installer and allows the system to heat the stratified 1000 liter buffer tanks in the most efficient way.  Depending on conditions and load, the system will be able to heat either the tops of the tanks or the bottoms.  They have thought of everything. Work on the solar end continues this week and we expect the froling s3 turbo boiler by week’s end coming from Tarm in New Hampshire.


----------



## maple1 (Aug 21, 2018)

All very interesting, I will be watching this one to wherever it ends up at.

Do you know the brand or manufacturer of the panels? There is a place here that has been making them for decades, I think they are at the top of the solar thermal game. (But maybe not alone up there).

EDIT: I have wondered before why I haven't seen or heard of liquid cooled PV panels - should be a 'best of two worlds' solution?


----------



## Adirondacker26 (Sep 2, 2018)

Work is nearly done now. Ben has a few things to finish up.  After a couple test burns I can tell that this system is going to save me a lot of time and money. I have never seen a machine extract so much heat energy from firewood and keep it inside the house where it can be used. The sun was out today for a bit and the solar panels were returning glycol to the tank’s coils at 155 degrees.  Glycol going to the panels was at 130 degrees due to the tanks being warmed up.


----------



## Adirondacker26 (Sep 23, 2018)

SO the system is in and working great!  Never saw so much heat energy from so little input. The solar puts out 165 degree glycol on sunny days- seriously hot stuff. Best thing about the froling  is that its so easy to light and then you just walk away.  No adjustments, no tweaking, no checking things, no stirring of the fire, no taking panels off and guessing what the air settings should be, and no adding wood during the burn because the boiler display tells you how much wood to put in when you start it.  No hoping that you have things set right because the computer takes all the guess work out of the equation. Everything about the froling s3 turbo has been engineered to extract the most energy from wood and keep the operator OUT of the boiler room.  Combustion settings for primary and secondary air are constantly monitored and adjusted from start to finish- they are constantly changing throughout the burn.  Fact is- there is no way to get maximum efficiency from a wood gasification boiler which does not change the air settings and fan speed during the burn. Period. You can change them yourself but who wants to live in the basement?  The boiler always knows how much energy is needed, depending on load and storage capacity and how to burn the wood for optimal efficiency. Its like having a full time employee in the basement doing all the work for you. Oh and by the way, this thing is so quiet that I can’t hear it if I’m not in the basement. Also I have opened the firebox during the burn and there is NO SMOKE let into the house!  NONE!  I don’t have a reason to do that other than to just see if I could open it without smoke pouring out. I have seen all the videos on youtube of the wood gas boilers and they are BLACK above the fire door. If anyone knows of a better boiler, I’ll buy it.


----------



## TCaldwell (Sep 24, 2018)

You have seen the light, o2 control!


----------



## Adirondacker26 (Sep 24, 2018)

A short video of combustion chamber.


----------



## goosegunner (Sep 29, 2018)

I couldn't agree with you more, we are amazed with how our S3 functions compared to our other boiler (which happened to be the other boiler you were considering).







Adirondacker26 said:


> SO the system is in and working great!  Never saw so much heat energy from so little input. The solar puts out 165 degree glycol on sunny days- seriously hot stuff. Best thing about the froling  is that its so easy to light and then you just walk away.  No adjustments, no tweaking, no checking things, no stirring of the fire, no taking panels off and guessing what the air settings should be, and no adding wood during the burn because the boiler display tells you how much wood to put in when you start it.  No hoping that you have things set right because the computer takes all the guess work out of the equation. Everything about the froling s3 turbo has been engineered to extract the most energy from wood and keep the operator OUT of the boiler room.  Combustion settings for primary and secondary air are constantly monitored and adjusted from start to finish- they are constantly changing throughout the burn.  Fact is- there is no way to get maximum efficiency from a wood gasification boiler which does not change the air settings and fan speed during the burn. Period. You can change them yourself but who wants to live in the basement?  The boiler always knows how much energy is needed, depending on load and storage capacity and how to burn the wood for optimal efficiency. Its like having a full time employee in the basement doing all the work for you. Oh and by the way, this thing is so quiet that I can’t hear it if I’m not in the basement. Also I have opened the firebox during the burn and there is NO SMOKE let into the house!  NONE!  I don’t have a reason to do that other than to just see if I could open it without smoke pouring out. I have seen all the videos on youtube of the wood gas boilers and they are BLACK above the fire door. If anyone knows of a better boiler, I’ll buy it.


----------



## Adirondacker26 (Oct 16, 2018)

The S3 is keeping things cozy here and saving me a lot of work as well.  The one thing I am having trouble with is getting an answer to 
a question about fly ash coming from the back of the boiler.  The ash is coming from the hole in the mounting plate for the fan where the drive shaft passes through into the flue area where the squirrel cage is located. This is supposed to an area of low pressure but there is definitely ash
coming out.  In the picture it’s pretty obvious what’s going on.  Anyone having this problem?  Any signs of ash on the back of your Froling?


----------



## sardo_67 (Oct 16, 2018)

i found this for you, might be of interest

https://buffalo.craigslist.org/app/d/frling-fhglwood-boiler-new-on/6696662678.html


----------



## Adirondacker26 (Oct 16, 2018)

Hey thats a good price. Problem solved here. Nothing wrong with the boiler. There were a couple very small leaks in the flue pipe causing fly ash to escape. This ash was being drawn into the small cooling fan on the fan motor and pushed against the back of the boiler making it appear that
the ash was coming from the drive shaft area.  We are well into the heating season here in the Adirondacks and today I noticed how much time the Froling is saving me on a daily basis. So easy to light, no repeated trips to add more wood, and most of the time there is no fire in it to check anyway. Not that it needs checking. It’s starting to look like I am saving around 75% on my wood consumption over the old crappy boiler. Amazing!


----------



## sardo_67 (Oct 17, 2018)

Adirondacker26 said:


> Hey thats a good price. Problem solved here. Nothing wrong with the boiler. There were a couple very small leaks in the flue pipe causing fly ash to escape. This ash was being drawn into the small cooling fan on the fan motor and pushed against the back of the boiler making it appear that
> the ash was coming from the drive shaft area.  We are well into the heating season here in the Adirondacks and today I noticed how much time the Froling is saving me on a daily basis. So easy to light, no repeated trips to add more wood, and most of the time there is no fire in it to check anyway. Not that it needs checking. It’s starting to look like I am saving around 75% on my wood consumption over the* old crappy boiler.* Amazing!



which boiler did you have?


----------



## Adirondacker26 (Oct 17, 2018)

It’s the S3 turbo


----------



## sardo_67 (Oct 17, 2018)

sorry i meant to say "used to have", your old boiler that was about 75% less efficient than the S3


----------



## Marshy (Oct 17, 2018)

Adirondacker26 said:


> Hey thats a good price. Problem solved here. Nothing wrong with the boiler. There were a couple very small leaks in the flue pipe causing fly ash to escape. This ash was being drawn into the small cooling fan on the fan motor and pushed against the back of the boiler making it appear that
> the ash was coming from the drive shaft area.  We are well into the heating season here in the Adirondacks and today I noticed how much time the Froling is saving me on a daily basis. So easy to light, no repeated trips to add more wood, and most of the time there is no fire in it to check anyway. Not that it needs checking. It’s starting to look like I am saving around 75% on my wood consumption over the old crappy boiler. Amazing!


Congrats on the boiler system. I installed my own Froling this past spring. I only have about 125 operating hours on it and its connected to 800 gallons of unpressurized storage. My boiler is the FHG model and was one of the very last few sold by Tarm. The model tag on the boiler jacket even says S3 Turbo but it has the older generation FHG controls.
I love mine and how simple it is to use. Mine has the ability to calculate how much wood to load for refueling like yours but my understanding is that the calculation is based on storage tanks configured like your pressurized tanks. Without those tanks the calculation is a gross estimate at best. Even in the short time I've operated mine, you learn to load based on what temps you see in your tanks just like you would learn how to load your woodstove.

Please tell us a little more about your solar panels (brand?). My goal was to eventually have solar thermal to heat my solartechnics storage tank during the summer for DHW.


----------



## Adirondacker26 (Oct 17, 2018)

A Minnesota Stove Works boiler.  Basically a steel container with a hole in the top to let the smoke out.  Water capacity might have been 10 gallons.  poured smoke into the house very time I had to put wood in it which was hourly. Awful.


----------



## Adirondacker26 (Oct 17, 2018)

The panels are Sunmaxx Solar made in Germany. More than adequate to heat our water. Only got the system going in September but the panels were making 185 F on sunny days.


----------



## Adirondacker26 (Oct 17, 2018)

Here’s a video of me gathering wood.............


----------



## Marshy (Oct 18, 2018)

Adirondacker26 said:


> Here’s a video of me gathering wood.............



Nice little machine and setup. I have a 30hp Deutz Allis 4x4 compact tractor and want to get a winch setup like that. I actually bought a military 7 ton pto winch and plan to make my own. I wont be able to access my land until Jan when the ground will be frozen solid soni have time to design and build the winch. What part of the Dacks you in? I'm down near Pulaski NY.


----------



## sardo_67 (Oct 18, 2018)

Adirondacker26 said:


> A Minnesota Stove Works boiler.  Basically a steel container with a hole in the top to let the smoke out.  Water capacity might have been 10 gallons.  poured smoke into the house very time I had to put wood in it which was hourly. Awful.



oh god damn that sounds terrible, i am getting my 1979 MB55 Solo tarm up and running in a few weeks, not the most efficient boiler but for $300 it wasn't a bad start, i am investing most of my money into the system then next year i'll upgrade to a better one.



Adirondacker26 said:


> The panels are Sunmaxx Solar made in Germany. More than adequate to heat our water. Only got the system going in September but the panels were making 185 F on sunny days.



do you have a link to your solar build?  i am starting to look into doing solar for domestic heating, i was going to use the wood boiler but i think i want to go longer between firings for house heat which would be too low for hot showers.


----------



## Bad LP (Oct 18, 2018)

sardo_67 said:


> oh god damn that sounds terrible, i am getting my 1979 MB55 Solo tarm up and running in a few weeks, not the most efficient boiler but for $300 it wasn't a bad start, i am investing most of my money into the system then next year i'll upgrade to a better one.
> 
> 
> 
> do you have a link to your solar build?  i am starting to look into doing solar for domestic heating, i was going to use the wood boiler but i think i want to go longer between firings for house heat which would be too low for hot showers.



Smart move on moving DHW off the boiler. I'm moving mine back to the LP boiler.


----------



## Patti (Nov 23, 2018)

Adirondacker26... HI! I have been following your posts- glad to see you are happy with your system. I am currently in the process (a very lengthy process....ugh...) of trying to decide what boiler to purchase....and it seems like the more I read in these forums, the more confused I get. 
if I may ask...would you be willing to share a breakdown of your costs? (If you don't want to share that, it's perfectly okay!). 
My situation is similar to yours, so I'd like to pick your brain!
I have a terrible old boiler right now in my shop (its a Benjamin- but it's not really intended to be a boiler- it's designed as more of a 'back-up'heat source. I live in the snowbelt in Ontario, so our weather is pretty similar.There is 110' feet of pex running from the shop to the air handler in my house. I have a 600 gal insulated, stainless steel, non-pressurized storage tank in my shop, (but I'm not using it at the moment- long story). I have an 1857 log cabin with pretty good insulation, but needs new windows. 2500 sq ft., but I close the loft off in the winter so I only heat about 1900 sq. feet. I have infloor heating in a stone floor in the kitchen. The boiler will be used to heat a hot tub, pool and dhw (but I may be installing a condensing propane boiler for summer months...) or, depending on the cost, I would really like to go solar like you, as I have the perfect location for panels and would like to heat the last three things using solar rather than burning wood in the summer. 
That might have to wait though, because money is an issue...which is the main reason I have been shying away from the Froling. As much as I would LIKE to have it...I might need to lower my expectations...(I mean, I would LOVE a Porsche too, but hey, the Pontiac Vibe it is!)...but then again, as you said, you can't really put a price on what all that wood smoke does to your health. I live in a valley, so all of the wood smoke just drops here and sits (and my neighbour's smoke as well). I have lung issues to begin with, and I don't like the fact that my horses are continually breathing it either, so that is my main reason for wanting a gasifier. Well- that and the fact that I'm really not into cutting, splitting and stacking more than 20 cords of wood a year!!( I'd like to ride the above-mentioned horses some time!!)
Besides the cost, I have a couple other questions that I'm hoping you can help me with. 
1) I don't really understand the whole solar/wood heated water storage thing. You have two tanks- does the solar heat the water in one and wood heat the other and they mix? 
2)) Are your tanks pressurized, and if so, is that a necessity?
3) Would my 600 gal non-pressurized tank work the same way with the boiler?
4) Was there a big price difference between the Econoburn & the Froling? (I know it's a little like comparing oranges to apples, but just so I have a rough idea.) 

One thing I have to consider is my relative location to installers/distributors/parts supply for the gasifiers I am looking at. There doesn't seem to be very many (which I cannot figure out...I don't know why they aren't more popular up here!!). When I have to factor in exchange rates, shipping, duties and taxes, the cost quickly becomes unreasonable (and God forbid our stupid government offer any incentives to offset the costs...that might be too helpful....). So if anyone has suggestions for Canadian buyers, please advise!

I guess I really want assurance that a gasifier is going to cut down on my wood consumption/workload _significantly,_ because if it is only going to make a difference of 3-5 cords, then I'll just go with a less expensive or different type of heating.

If anyone would like to chime in with thoughts/opinions about any of this... please feel free!
The ones I am considering are Froling, Econoburn, Empyre, Effecta Lambda, (and, I thought Kuuma...until I found out it was just a furnace and not a boiler!). Price (unfortunately) may end up playing a role, but I'll have to weigh the pros and cons. I don't mind technology...but I also like the 'set it and forget it' mentality because right now, to keep temperature up in the boiler I have, I have to stoke it every 3 hours. Brutal- especially when it's -20C (-4F) and the snow and wind are whipping around.
 I have seriously thought about just putting a bed in my shop, heating that and forgetting about the house (or better yet, trailering my horses, getting the hell out of Dodge and going to Florida for the winter!...which, I must say, after a week of temperatures in the - teensC and snow- in NOVEMBER- I am more than ready to do!!
Thanks for any input offered. I have been looking at doing this for awhile, and I decided the other day that i just can't handle this '3 hour feeding schedule' anymore. Looking forward to feedback. Thanks! Patti


----------



## maple1 (Nov 23, 2018)

I had a Benjamin for 17 years, until I went gasifier and storage in 2012. That damned thing near killed me, chasing it to keep us warm.


----------



## salecker (Nov 24, 2018)

Hi Patti
 I have a Econoburn 200 with 1000 gallons of storage.Very tough built boiler and simple.This will be year 9 on mine i believe.I have a log house with cast iron rads,and awesome quad pane windows.At -40C there is no frost on them,and in the summer with the Yukon sun i can lay a chocolate bar on the dark stone window sill an after 8 hours the bar will not be melted.We use 8 cords of spruce a year that heats the house and the boiler building.There is no heat source in the boiler building other that the heat loss from piping.Money was an issue when i built as well.When i wear this boiler out then i may go for the Porsche as i will be a lot older and may need to ease my work load.
 I have had to run my setup temporarily(2 weeks) with the fan plugged into an extension cord when i had a controller issue.Econoburn's employee's are very helpful and will go the extra mile to help if you are in the middle of nowhere.
 So i have had no issues to complain about.Are there better boilers out there?sure,maybe it all depends on your situation.


----------



## Bad LP (Nov 24, 2018)

I bought my Tarm boiler used for a fair price. Piping, pumps tanks and labor cost more than the boiler. When this boiler gives it up I will upgrade to a more advanced model. Gasification is great but I would want something easier to get going.
I'm happy I spent the money once on the piping and storage side. It will not have to be redone.


----------



## Patti (Nov 24, 2018)

maple1 said:


> I had a Benjamin for 17 years, until I went gasifier and storage in 2012. That damned thing near killed me, chasing it to keep us warm.



LOL...yes...I remember you telling me that you had a Benjamin as well, and how much work it was. It IS killing me!


----------



## Patti (Nov 24, 2018)

Salecker- THANK YOU so much for that info. That is really helpful. I haven't considered the Econoburn as much as some of the others, but I've been hearing good things lately, so I am going to look into it. I like that- strong AND simple! Exactly what I need! I can't believe that is all the wood you went through...and in the Yukon yet! You said you might look at getting the Porsche when you need to replace it to ease your workload...Can you clarify for me? Does the Econoburn require more frequent stoking? Just wondering why you think the Froling would make your workload easier. I noticed that it says your's is outside. Mine will be inside, and smoke (both inside and out) is a real issue for me. Is there much smoke? One final question- is your storage pressurized or non-pressurized? Your situation is SO similar to mine in so many ways- (even the distance between the shop and the house!), so it is really helpful to be able to compare (and those big ole 4 pane windows sound gorgeous btw!). Is your house an old one, or recently built? Round or square logs? Good to know that Econoburn is supportive too. Thanks again!


----------



## Patti (Nov 24, 2018)

Bad LP- Thanks for that input! Yah- the piping, tanks, etc, sure add up. I was very lucky...I have a friend that is primarily a  plumber but has his HVAC ticket, AND he has a backhoe. One of his customers bought a farm and was taking the heating system out, so he told my friend that if he wanted to dig up the pex, he could have it....so I got all that installed for free...which was a huge bonus!! I just want something reliable and easy to run...that doesn't take 20 cords (or more) of wood to keep me warm. Taking into consideration all labour I've put into cutting, splitting, stacking more than 20 cords per year for the last 3 or 4 years, I'm thinking it would probably be just as cheap to go to Florida for the winter- and I could save myself a whole lot of hard work and aggravation! LOL Well...I've give the gasifier a try. I've done the wood pellet boiler (huge hassle), and now the wood-eating Benjamin, so my last attempt at this will be a gasifier...and if that doesn't cut down on my workload drastically, then it will be a condensing propane boiler and that will be it! Thanks again! Patti


----------



## salecker (Nov 25, 2018)

Bad LP said:


> Gasification is great but I would want something easier to get going.


I am not sure what you mean by something easier to get going?If you are talking about starting a fire in a gasifyer then you shouldn't say anything till you have one.
 My Econoburn is the easiest wood burning appliance i have used to start a fire in.8 yrs of burning and neither my wife or i have had a fire not take after it was started.
 If we are in a rush,max 5 minutes from a cold boiler to a fire going and loaded for 2+hr burn.
 Easy Peasy,super simple.


----------



## Patti (Nov 25, 2018)

salecker said:


> I am not sure what you mean by something easier to get going?If you are talking about starting a fire in a gasifyer then you shouldn't say anything till you have one.
> My Econoburn is the easiest wood burning appliance i have used to start a fire in.8 yrs of burning and neither my wife or i have had a fire not take after it was started.
> If we are in a rush,max 5 minutes from a cold boiler to a fire going and loaded for 2+hr burn.
> Easy Peasy,super simple.



Okay....so it will burn for two hours...and if it is say, -15C outside, when would you need to re-stoke it?


----------



## Chris Hoskin (Nov 26, 2018)

glad you are so pleased with the boiler, Adirondacker!



Adirondacker26 said:


> SO the system is in and working great!  Never saw so much heat energy from so little input. The solar puts out 165 degree glycol on sunny days- seriously hot stuff. Best thing about the froling  is that its so easy to light and then you just walk away.  No adjustments, no tweaking, no checking things, no stirring of the fire, no taking panels off and guessing what the air settings should be, and no adding wood during the burn because the boiler display tells you how much wood to put in when you start it.  No hoping that you have things set right because the computer takes all the guess work out of the equation. Everything about the froling s3 turbo has been engineered to extract the most energy from wood and keep the operator OUT of the boiler room.  Combustion settings for primary and secondary air are constantly monitored and adjusted from start to finish- they are constantly changing throughout the burn.  Fact is- there is no way to get maximum efficiency from a wood gasification boiler which does not change the air settings and fan speed during the burn. Period. You can change them yourself but who wants to live in the basement?  The boiler always knows how much energy is needed, depending on load and storage capacity and how to burn the wood for optimal efficiency. Its like having a full time employee in the basement doing all the work for you. Oh and by the way, this thing is so quiet that I can’t hear it if I’m not in the basement. Also I have opened the firebox during the burn and there is NO SMOKE let into the house!  NONE!  I don’t have a reason to do that other than to just see if I could open it without smoke pouring out. I have seen all the videos on youtube of the wood gas boilers and they are BLACK above the fire door. If anyone knows of a better boiler, I’ll buy it.


----------



## Bad LP (Nov 26, 2018)

salecker said:


> I am not sure what you mean by something easier to get going?If you are talking about starting a fire in a gasifyer then you shouldn't say anything till you have one.
> My Econoburn is the easiest wood burning appliance i have used to start a fire in.8 yrs of burning and neither my wife or i have had a fire not take after it was started.
> If we are in a rush,max 5 minutes from a cold boiler to a fire going and loaded for 2+hr burn.
> Easy Peasy,super simple.



I have a gasifaction boiler. Cold starting it is kinda on the slow side for me as I'm on the impatient side.


----------



## Chris Hoskin (Nov 26, 2018)

Hi Patti,

check out www.biothermic.ca for your Canadian source for the Fröling wood and pellet boilers.  They are based out of Haliburton and do installations too if I am not mistaken.  We also know of a contractor in the Barrie area who is very familiar with our boilers if that would be helpful.  Effecta boilers (Smart 40 and Smart 55) are available directly from us.

Chris



Patti said:


> Adirondacker26... HI! I have been following your posts- glad to see you are happy with your system. I am currently in the process (a very lengthy process....ugh...) of trying to decide what boiler to purchase....and it seems like the more I read in these forums, the more confused I get.
> if I may ask...would you be willing to share a breakdown of your costs? (If you don't want to share that, it's perfectly okay!).
> My situation is similar to yours, so I'd like to pick your brain!
> I have a terrible old boiler right now in my shop (its a Benjamin- but it's not really intended to be a boiler- it's designed as more of a 'back-up'heat source. I live in the snowbelt in Ontario, so our weather is pretty similar.There is 110' feet of pex running from the shop to the air handler in my house. I have a 600 gal insulated, stainless steel, non-pressurized storage tank in my shop, (but I'm not using it at the moment- long story). I have an 1857 log cabin with pretty good insulation, but needs new windows. 2500 sq ft., but I close the loft off in the winter so I only heat about 1900 sq. feet. I have infloor heating in a stone floor in the kitchen. The boiler will be used to heat a hot tub, pool and dhw (but I may be installing a condensing propane boiler for summer months...) or, depending on the cost, I would really like to go solar like you, as I have the perfect location for panels and would like to heat the last three things using solar rather than burning wood in the summer.
> ...


----------



## salecker (Nov 26, 2018)

Patti said:


> Okay....so it will burn for two hours...and if it is say, -15C outside, when would you need to re-stoke it?


I have storage with my boiler so a typical day at -20C goes like this...
somebody starts a fire at 5PM when we get home,load it full.7PM refill fire box,9pm refill firebox with appropriate amount of wood to last till10-11PM depending on storage temps,go shut down boiler at 10-11PM. Repeat process next day.During the burn time the boiler is burning wide open at maximum efficacy.Now if we have -40C day then the process usually starts at lunch.Start a fire near 1PM just before leaving back to work,when we had a kid in school she would be picked up at 3PM,refill boiler,5PM after work refill the boiler and repeat in 2 hr cycles till storage is full around 10-11 PM.That was the routine for the last 8 years.
 This year will be different,a lot of the time i will be by myself,so i will be starting multiple fires a day when i have meetings after work.I will have to start a fire and load the boiler before work,then again at lunch,then again after my meetings for the final top up for the night.
 This will be no big deal because starting a fire in a gasifier is a non event,takes more effort to make your coffee in the morning and drink it.


----------



## salecker (Nov 26, 2018)

Patti said:


> Salecker- THANK YOU so much for that info. That is really helpful. I haven't considered the Econoburn as much as some of the others, but I've been hearing good things lately, so I am going to look into it. I like that- strong AND simple! Exactly what I need! I can't believe that is all the wood you went through...and in the Yukon yet! You said you might look at getting the Porsche when you need to replace it to ease your workload...Can you clarify for me? Does the Econoburn require more frequent stoking? Just wondering why you think the Froling would make your workload easier. I noticed that it says your's is outside. Mine will be inside, and smoke (both inside and out) is a real issue for me. Is there much smoke? One final question- is your storage pressurized or non-pressurized? Your situation is SO similar to mine in so many ways- (even the distance between the shop and the house!), so it is really helpful to be able to compare (and those big ole 4 pane windows sound gorgeous btw!). Is your house an old one, or recently built? Round or square logs? Good to know that Econoburn is supportive too. Thanks again![/





Bad LP said:


> I have a gasifaction boiler. Cold starting it is kinda on the slow side for me as I'm on the impatient side.


I find starting a fire in regular wood stove slow now.That's were i get impatient waiting for it to make some heat.My boiler i just fill the boiler with some small stuff in the bottom with a rolled newspaper in the nozzle and fill the boiler with wood,close the upper door.Open the lower door and bypass touch off the newspaper with a lighter and away it goes.Leave the lower door open for a couple of miuite till i see the flue temp begin to rise,close bottom door and turn on fan.Come back in a couple of hours and re-stoke the boiler.My wife sayes the hardest thing is getting the lighter to work.


----------



## salecker (Nov 26, 2018)

Patti said:


> Salecker- THANK YOU so much for that info. That is really helpful. I haven't considered the Econoburn as much as some of the others, but I've been hearing good things lately, so I am going to look into it. I like that- strong AND simple! Exactly what I need! I can't believe that is all the wood you went through...and in the Yukon yet! You said you might look at getting the Porsche when you need to replace it to ease your workload...Can you clarify for me? Does the Econoburn require more frequent stoking? Just wondering why you think the Froling would make your workload easier. I noticed that it says your's is outside. Mine will be inside, and smoke (both inside and out) is a real issue for me. Is there much smoke? One final question- is your storage pressurized or non-pressurized? Your situation is SO similar to mine in so many ways- (even the distance between the shop and the house!), so it is really helpful to be able to compare (and those big ole 4 pane windows sound gorgeous btw!). Is your house an old one, or recently built? Round or square logs? Good to know that Econoburn is supportive too. Thanks again!


I feel that a Porsche boiler would cut my wood use a little with Lamberata ?? controls where it is checking combustion air and controlling the fan.There is a guy on here that went from a Econoburn to a Porsche style boiler and has used less wood.My storage is pressurized,and my complete system is in a separate building.No smoke,dust,ash,carbon monoxide in our house. Wife and daughter have asthma and we have a volunteer fire department.So besides the benefits i mentioned it is our insurance to not have any fire sources in our home.Plus i always have a warm workshop to tinker in all wither without having to start an additional fire in a workshop.
 Our house is new built scribe log.If you are interested in the windows the company up here that designed and builds them is Northerm Windows 867 668 5088. The underground run in my case is 125ft.


----------



## Adirondacker26 (Jan 15, 2019)

Patti said:


> Adirondacker26... HI! I have been following your posts- glad to see you are happy with your system. I am currently in the process (a very lengthy process....ugh...) of trying to decide what boiler to purchase....and it seems like the more I read in these forums, the more confused I get.
> if I may ask...would you be willing to share a breakdown of your costs? (If you don't want to share that, it's perfectly okay!).
> My situation is similar to yours, so I'd like to pick your brain!
> I have a terrible old boiler right now in my shop (its a Benjamin- but it's not really intended to be a boiler- it's designed as more of a 'back-up'heat source. I live in the snowbelt in Ontario, so our weather is pretty similar.There is 110' feet of pex running from the shop to the air handler in my house. I have a 600 gal insulated, stainless steel, non-pressurized storage tank in my shop, (but I'm not using it at the moment- long story). I have an 1857 log cabin with pretty good insulation, but needs new windows. 2500 sq ft., but I close the loft off in the winter so I only heat about 1900 sq. feet. I have infloor heating in a stone floor in the kitchen. The boiler will be used to heat a hot tub, pool and dhw (but I may be installing a condensing propane boiler for summer months...) or, depending on the cost, I would really like to go solar like you, as I have the perfect location for panels and would like to heat the last three things using solar rather than burning wood in the summer.
> ...


 

Hi Patti. Things have been really busy here on the farm and I have not checked the forum here in a while and it seems like I'm not getting any notices in my email about any posts. The solar system that I have here is actually a system within a system. There are coils in each pressurized tank in my basement and one of the coils is used to transfer heat from the solar panels to the tanks. This system is filled with glycol so the glycol from the solar panels is pumped into a coil inside the tank where it heats the water. The other coil is used to feed Coldwater to my domestic water heater. So cold water enters the coil from the well and by the time it gets to my domestic hot water tank it is very hot. So hot in fact that a mixing valve was installed by the installer to make sure that the water in the house is not too hot. It is now mid January and the system has been up and running since Labor Day and my domestic hot water heater has not turned on even once. We basically have unlimited hot water.  I am not sure about the difference between a pressurized and non-pressurized system. I have heard that a pressurize system is better. I would think that your 600 gallon non-pressurized tank would work the same way that mine does. The difference in price between the Froehling S3 and a comparable Econo burn boiler is not much. A friend of mine came to see the new heating system here back in September and he is now the proud owner of the exact same system that I have here and he is absolutely thrilled!  Froling S3 turbo continues to work flawlessly here and is exactly what I wanted. It really is wonderful to just light a fire and walk away from it and never have to think about it during the day or night. If the temperatures are in the 20s Fahrenheit or above I light one fire every 24 hours and if the temperatures are colder I may like one and a half to two fires in a 24 hour period. I keep the house at about 72°F and we also have a wood burning cook stove in the kitchen which makes a big difference and some days we have a fire in there and some days we don’t. The cost for the entire system including the solar the tanks the boiler the piping all of the controls and devices and wiring was $35,000. The solar was $5000 material and labor. Total labor cost for the entire job was about $8900. New York State kicked in $10,000 and that really made the difference for me. I think the boiler was in the neighborhood of $10,000. Tarm biomass in New Hampshire was the supplier that my contractor used and they are very helpful and knowledgeable. I have just started to keep track of how much wood I am burning and it's really not very accurate affair but all indications tell me that I am burning about 40% of what I used to burn. So a savings of 60% is what I'm looking at and this is just an estimate right now.  This entire system cost less then a new pick up truck and that is one way to look at it. This new heating system will pay for itself after a number of years and I'm not sure exactly how long that will take but I know that it is money wisely invested. I don't like to spend anymore time cutting splitting stacking and drying firewood than I have to and I certainly don't want to babysit a boiler down in the basement that is noisy and belching smoke into the house. As I have said in one of my previous posts, it makes absolutely no sense to me to get a wood gasification boiler with all of the technology built into it and not have one which monitors and controls the burn from start to finish. If you purchase a boiler which does not have these controls you are basically wasting your money in my opinion. If you look at the other forums you'll see that there are people who are constantly having to fiddle around with the settings on their boilers and once everything is said and done they are only guessing and of course once they get the settings correct those settings are only good for a portion of the burn and are causing the boiler to become inefficient for the rest of the burn.


----------



## maple1 (Jan 15, 2019)

*If you purchase a boiler which does not have these controls you are basically wasting your money in my opinion. If you look at the other forums you'll see that there are people who are constantly having to fiddle around with the settings on their boilers and once everything is said and done they are only guessing and of course once they get the settings correct those settings are only good for a portion of the burn and are causing the boiler to become inefficient for the rest of the burn.*

Not sure I would agree with that. My gasifier has no controls or settings at all. It simply burns wide open until the fuel is gone. If it were an optimally controlled Lambda unit, it would no doubt squeeze more out of my wood. But the gain would be marginal and would not really be worth it to me. The simplicity of it and ease of operation in a power outage is an advantage. So, it was far from a waste of money - it has been one of the best investments I have made, and should have done it years ago.

So was your total cost 35k plus the 8.9k labor? That is pretty huge. Even 35k is very significant. Mine was 15k Canadian, all in. (Replaced all the heat generating side, left the existing distribution stuff in place). If I was on the south side of the border, it would have been maybe 2/3 of that. Heat & DHW. Use a simple efficient tank electric tank heater in the summer, costs about $25/mo to operate. Solar for DHW just didn't pencil out for us, at all - I did consider it. I could heat DHW with wood all summer if I wanted, burning once a week or so. But I don't - just not worth it for me. And a break from wood is nice. The picture may be different for someone with heavier DHW use.

There is no doubt the Froling is a very nice boiler though, that cannot be denied. It would be on my short list if I was doing it all again.


----------



## Adirondacker26 (Jan 15, 2019)

maple1 said:


> *If you purchase a boiler which does not have these controls you are basically wasting your money in my opinion. If you look at the other forums you'll see that there are people who are constantly having to fiddle around with the settings on their boilers and once everything is said and done they are only guessing and of course once they get the settings correct those settings are only good for a portion of the burn and are causing the boiler to become inefficient for the rest of the burn.*
> 
> Not sure I would agree with that. My gasifier has no controls or settings at all. It simply burns wide open until the fuel is gone. If it were an optimally controlled Lambda unit, it would no doubt squeeze more out of my wood. But the gain would be marginal and would not really be worth it to me. The simplicity of it and ease of operation in a power outage is an advantage. So, it was far from a waste of money - it has been one of the best investments I have made, and should have done it years ago.
> 
> ...




  Actually my cost was 25k total. The contractor received 10k from the NYSERDA program. The contractor received a total of 35k.  Keep in mind this included the solar installation as well- computer, pump, controls, panels, and piping.  The solar panels are not for DHW only. They heat the same water in the tanks that the boiler heats. This cuts the wood burning season back by a considerable amount both in fall and spring. Same thing with my neighbor.  I like the idea of your boiler running full bore.  I just wonder what your flue temperature is- that would be worth knowing.   I know that when I over fire my maple evaporator, it sends wasted heat right up the flue- the pans and sap can only absorb so much energy. With hardwood the Froling has a flue temperature of around 380 and with softwood its about 330 to 360. With the refractory glowing cherry red-orange, it’s amazing to me to see such low flue temps. So Froling has matched the rate of burn controlled by the computer to the boiler’s ability to extract heat from the gases.  They have engineered it so that the boiler’s heat extraction ability is not overcome by flue gasses which are too hot.  I brush the tubes on the Froling every 300 hours or so after noticing increasing flue temps after that amount of elapsed time. The manual calls for brushing the tubes every 3000 hours I think, but I know for a fact that this boiler is considerably more efficient with regular cleanings. I have no idea why Froling has a 3000 hour interval- that doesn’t sound right to me.  And, of course, if they asked me, I’d tell them they are wrong. I have timed myself doing this and it takes me 12.5 minutes start to finish. No big deal. If I had a higher ceiling in the basement I could do it quicker. We have had a number of power failures here since Labor Day and the Froling is all set up for that.  I interrupt what the system is doing by turning our standby emergency power on and it just goes back to what it was doing before the power went out. I hate the idea of sending my hard work up the chimney after dealing with a boiler for decades that probably was 45% efficient at best. I used to look at the firewood all stacked up nice and think- well, I’m throwing at least half of that away, but I still have to process all that wood. We have been seeing minus 25 C this year quite a few times and it’s nice not having to fuss with the boiler. I’m sure you like that with your boiler as well.  Stay warm. Spring is coming!


----------



## Adirondacker26 (Feb 17, 2019)

Marshy said:


> Nice little machine and setup. I have a 30hp Deutz Allis 4x4 compact tractor and want to get a winch setup like that. I actually bought a military 7 ton pto winch and plan to make my own. I wont be able to access my land until Jan when the ground will be frozen solid soni have time to design and build the winch. What part of the Dacks you in? I'm down near Pulaski NY.



I’m in Stratford. Just checking here after being too busy to keep up at hearth.com.


----------

