# drafty old farmhouses



## ditchrider (Aug 3, 2012)

Ssooo…. I’m not exactly certain where to post this question, but this is where I’ll stick it.
I’ve seen a lot of folks post questions about heating drafty old farmhouses. I’ve spent the last couple of years sealing up mine – ripping out lath, plaster, imperial board. I’ve yanked out and replaced warped fir and cottonwood (yes, cottonwood!) studs and lumber and stuffed insulation where the sun does shine and the wind blows. Great Stuff ™, silicone caulking, and new windows purchased as returns or open box items. I sealed up one 14 foot stretch of wall I wished I had started on after realizing how much draft is allowed into my house. It was a north wall and after completing the sheath insulation the warm air from my wood stove actually flowed northward into my kitchen. It was 10 degrees outside, snowing and the wind was just HOWLING out of the north. That was an experience! I stood there for at least 15 minutes in amazement.
I just finished the kids’ bedroom this summer since school was out. So the overhaul of the exterior walls amounted to about a couple grand. That accounts for insulation, windows, odds and ends and drywall. I expect my wood stove to heat the entire home, including the extremities very adequately now after my experience with the north wall.
My question is.. I realize I had resources to make this big job simpler, a buddy who is a drywall contractor, I have  lot of experience in carpentry and construction, so I went overboard to make the house new, but there are cheaper means to accomplish similar results. It has also been in the family since homesteading and that has added to my motivation. So why don’t folks invest money and effort  to seal up their home instead of looking for a bigger stove?
I’m just asking other people’s point of view. Our heating season outside the shoulders is typically November through March. If it saves a couple cords and makes the house attractive to somebody else if I decide to sell, and is hospitable to the folks I have as guests, ain’t it worth the effort? My favorite part of winter is coming in from the cold.


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## Danno77 (Aug 3, 2012)

Probably partially because what you just did was ***** the soul of your old home. Have fun replacing windows every 15-25 years. That don't sound green to me.


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## ditchrider (Aug 3, 2012)

the old windows functioned better as screens


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## Danno77 (Aug 4, 2012)

Refurbishing old windows and installing wooden storm windows has been shown time and time again to offer longer lasting results and actually provide savings while keeping our landfills free of nasty vinyl windows. Many people spend (tens of) thousands of dollars on their new vinyl windows to save something like 300 bucks a season on heating bills. The payback for those expenses will be reached sometime in the vicinity of the failure of those windows.


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## ditchrider (Aug 4, 2012)

Thanks for the thought about windows.

How about the insulation thing. I had NONE. It wasn't my desire to gut the plaster, in fact it was the poops. And I only did so on the exterior walls. There were a few cells where blowing in insulation wouldn't work due to blockages. I had one wall where the door stuck shut permanently in the wintertime. We thought for years the foundation settled and have jacked up the base plate several times. Once we got the plaster off we realized a few studs were soft and giving way under the weight of snow.


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## ditchrider (Aug 4, 2012)

So do you think we throw away vinyl windows is because they wear out or new home buyers get bombarded by window salesmen parousing county records of property deed transfers?


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## ditchrider (Aug 4, 2012)

Danno77 said:


> Refurbishing old windows and installing wooden storm windows has been shown time and time again to offer longer lasting results and actually provide savings while keeping our landfills free of nasty vinyl windows. Many people spend (tens of) thousands of dollars on their new vinyl windows to save something like 300 bucks a season on heating bills. The payback for those expenses will be reached sometime in the vicinity of the failure of those windows.


Got any links that would provide tips and results from overhauling old wood windows? Costs? Solving condensation issues?


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## Danno77 (Aug 4, 2012)

It's late, but the goto website (and forum) is oldhouseweb.com just be forewarned that the word vinyl is a dirty word over there.


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## jebatty (Aug 4, 2012)

> So why don’t folks invest money and effort to seal up their home instead of looking for a bigger stove?
> I’m just asking other people’s point of view.... If it saves a couple cords and makes the house attractive to somebody else if I decide to sell, and is hospitable to the folks I have as guests, ain’t it worth the effort? My favorite part of winter is coming in from the cold.


 
I would guess that there is an economic analysis that can provide one answer, an aesthetic analysis that can provide as many answers as there are people with different likes, and a passion analysis that differs with the many passions. If you are happy with the result, enjoyed the ride, and accomplished something you value, then it was worth the effort.

In my situation our home, built in 1956, was well built for its time, was pretty well designed, but was built in the era of "electricity is penny cheap" which was ranted by the local energy behemoth. When we purchased the home in spring of 1990, and experienced a couple of months of electric bills for the baseboard, plus feeling the cold drafts from the windows as they absorbed the northwest weather fronts coming out of Canada, we knew it wasn't going to work. Without listing the many things we have done, what had to happen for my wife and I was achieving an energy $$$ efficient and comfortable home as much as reasonably possible so that we could enjoy living in the house with the -35F winters and those howling NW winter winds.

We accomplished this while fully maintaining the look and feel of the original home. The original owners of the home upon an initial visit did not even recognize a change to the house when viewed from the outside, although the house had all new plus additional windows and three small additions. All improvements duplicated the original vertical siding and color and preserved a basic square footprint of the original. They knew there were changes on the inside (room rearrangements and three additions) but they had to ask what we did. The interior work duplicated the original vertical solid pine paneling and matched the color, plus the layout flowed like the original. The original owners said they liked the house now much better than when it was built for them.

"Ain't it worth the effort?" -- a resounding yes.


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## laynes69 (Aug 4, 2012)

I'm the 3rd generation owner of our home. My grandparents had this home, then my parents and currently us. Back in the mid 60's when my grandparents bought this home, they installed 2- 150,000 btu oil furnaces to heat this place. One in the basement and one on the 2nd story. Our home is a mid 19th century Victorian with 42 windows. The house was insulated in 79 with urea-formaldehyde foam which dad had a business at that time. When he bought the house in '86 after grandpa died, the windows were rotten and missing glass. Fast forward to now, we have vinyl double hung windows with triple trac storms. I've torn out all ductwork and reducted the home (no more 20+ degree temperature differentials from down to up).
I've done extensive air sealing in the attic and insulated well, and torn out walls and airsealed and insulated. There's still some work to go, but we now heat with a woodfurnace with an average btu output of about 70,000 btus. Our home is about 2400 sq ft, but has 10' ceilings both down and up plus basement. We had a blower door test done a couple years ago. There were houses down the road that were 3 years old with greater air loss and higher heating bills. It's well worth the money to upgrade efficiency on an old home. I enjoy the character of older homes, something many new homes dont have.


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## begreen (Aug 4, 2012)

Kudos for exercising some good common sense ditchrider. In this country we have had a long ride and habit on cheap fuel that has often led to waste and the thought that bigger is better. Got a drafty old house, put in a bigger furnace or woodstove. At the time it was more economical in the short term. Long term thinking was not all that common. Fast forward to today when fuel is getting expensive and finally folks are starting to think longer term. The work you've done may very well outlive us and it will save energy use winter and summer. I also agree with Danno's pov in regards to repairing old windows and installing storms where practical. It goes back to making things last longer and respecting the integrity of something old, by renewing it.

Our old farmhouse was attacked by some city artists in the mid-80's. They "modernized" the place by removing most of the original trim and created big flat area to display their artwork. They also removed classic old gothic arched windows with giant plate glass picture windows to capitalize on the view. This was totally out of character with the house. The workmanship was poor, partly because they were away during construction. In some places the workers had to be drunk to allow such bad work to be done. The couple moved in and lasted less than a year before they put the place on the market!

We've spent the last 16 yrs slowly restoring the place. The picture windows have been replaced with true, divided-lite wood window, a pair of double-hung surrounding a center big window. Cove molding has been added back together with other trim details, hardwood flooring and modern systems. I may never get a full return on my investment, but the house is ready for another 100 years and with a much more conservative energy budget.


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## Redbarn (Aug 4, 2012)

We have a 1810's farm house with thick exterior walls. The previous owner installed aluminum framed exterior storms in the early 90's and these have protected the original wood windows. These old wooden windows have many panes of the original, visually imperfect glass which adds enormous character. Replacing these windows was a non-starter.

However, the North winds just blew the heat out of the house in the winter. So after much research, I fitted interior storms from AEP (http://www.advancedenergypanels.com). Each window had to be custom made and fitted.  This was a real task as none of our windows are the same size and none are close to being rectangular  (some being 2" different across the diagonals). Costs were circa $200 per window, most windows being in the 72" x 36" size range.

I did the 1st floor first as this was where the loosest windows were. The results were an  immediate gain in comfort and a much happier wife. We were still using oil heat at that time and I could see a drop in monthly energy consumption on an oil used/heating degree day basis. Emboldened, I fitted interior storms to the rest of the house. 

I cannot publish hard figures on cost and energy savings  as other insulation projects followed but the draftiness of our house has been transformed. Visually, the interior storms are ambiance neutral or even enhancing. Certainly, our energy use, when converting wood + pellet use into oil equivalents per heating degree day has dropped at least 30%. I cannot attribute this all to the interior storms but they have contributed significantly. 

As for return on investment, my wife's Realtor friend is adamant that we'll recover the cost of the interior storm windows easily on resale as energy efficiency is becoming a significant factor in Old House buying decisions. Anecdotal evidence for sure but of some comfort nevertheless. On a (very) rough energy saved calculation, I estimated a 6-7 year payback. However, the difference in comfort between a drafty and draftless house feels priceless.


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## ditchrider (Aug 4, 2012)

Redbarn said:


> We have a 1810's farm house with thick exterior walls. The previous owner installed aluminum framed exterior storms in the early 90's and these have protected the original wood windows. These old wooden windows have many panes of the original, visually imperfect glass which adds enormous character. Replacing these windows was a non-starter.
> 
> However, the North winds just blew the heat out of the house in the winter. So after much research, I fitted interior storms from AEP (http://www.advancedenergypanels.com). Each window had to be custom made and fitted. This was a real task as none of our windows are the same size and none are close to being rectangular (some being 2" different across the diagonals). Costs were circa $200 per window, most windows being in the 72" x 36" size range.
> 
> ...


Yes I thought a little bit about resale and especially the "much happier wife". **big sigh** And in the process of demo, I kept the coved ceilings and a lot of the imperial board walls as they were in good condition. Much of my concern was regarding the draftiness we were battling. "Got a hole, plug it. Got a cavity, stuff it." We had a huge plate glass picture window that just tore me up to pull out, but the framing and moldings were so weathered and shrunk and the boys wrote their names in the frost daily. I never stated anything about vinyl in my OP, but that is what we went with. I really considered wood casement but the cost was prohibitive right now and aluminum was just out of the question -- like for like trade in my opinion.

When the renter moved out and we moved in the propane bill was 5 grand!. Insulating the ceiling the first year resolved half that cost and then we went with wood heat the next year and that cut the propane use by 1/3. And I'm an avid burner. We were gifted an old Earthstove from my cousin. I cracked it more than once over the years. When I replaced it with an EPA stove this year I was totally impressed with the reburner function.

I honestly cannot say what impact the rehab has had, since we've been in and out of propane heating over the last two years of remodel. But comfort and hospitality has to acquire some value. I wish I had investigated rehabbing SOME of the windows -- 1950's Anderson's. They were pretty and they matched the woodwork, but the counterweight windows had to go. They were loose as a goose with no roadmap for the winter flight. One thing I was glad I did was the isopropyl insulation with the foil facing. MAN the baseboards just radiate the heat off that! And after googling the stuff I learned the value of insulating against the stud framing, which is what I did. I kept the old cast iron baseboards -- no leaks and I couldn't justify just throwing them away without a reason.

Now we're more or less complete with all but the details. I believe we will have a grasp of the impact this year. As for the character, I put a lot of thought into that over the course of remodel. I really considered in-floor heat, largely because of the common sense of it - heat the floor, warm air rises. But the impact of ripping out baseboards that appeared to have a lot of life left made no sense. And if I'm doing this to benefit from wood heat, why invest so much into secondary heat?

Yep, vinyl windows. I see where you're going with that one, Danno. I tortured myself over that one, NO really! But in the rest of the scheme I have thought and learned a lot and tried to go from there. I put thicker sheathing on the windward walls and not as much on the downwind side. The lathe and plaster only has so much life. And the real motive all began with just getting some f**@#$g insulation into the house!

You just got a dollar out of my two cent's worth.

-ditchrider


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## velvetfoot (Aug 5, 2012)

Isn't the foam insulation thing was better than it used to be?
It would seem that an old house with no insulation and an attic would be a perfect candidate.
Foam everything.  Then you can keep your plaster walls.


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## ditchrider (Aug 5, 2012)

velvetfoot said:


> Isn't the foam insulation thing was better than it used to be?
> It would seem that an old house with no insulation and an attic would be a perfect candidate.
> Foam everything. Then you can keep your plaster walls.


Grrrrrrrr! yes. I got a long way into the project and one night (weekend, really) I took a rest from it and did some googling. Danged if I didn't run across info about isopropyl spray foam, I cannot remember which insulates better, open or closed cell foam. But one has a big advantage on r-value per inch but the cost per r-value isn't significantly different.  The big deal for me at that point was where I was at in the project, the cost per r-value of the foam, and  I have a BIG problem getting side-tracked looking too much at the big picture and getting lost in the details.

I've already replaced the r-19 with r-30 in the ceiling and put the r-19 into walls of another project I have going on. HOWEVER I will look into that on down the road to insulate the roof area, which hasn't been done yet AND I need to insulate my shop. I definitely plan on looking into foam when the time comes. It's an old useless barn that I blew a wall out of so I could put machinery into for repairs and maintenance.  Sorry about the wall, Danno. But it just HAD to be done . If it makes you feel better I was talked out of burning down the circa 1909 heap and erecting a steel building. I have no idea how many truckloads of cement it took just to construct the footer and pour a floor. But it did put me on a first name basis down at Redi-Mix and I've burned up several club member punch cards. I put in so much cable to straighten the walls I now generate geo-magnetic electricity and sell it back to the REA  (that's a flat out lie, but it makes for a good story and does summarize the complicated nature of the project.)

But back to your post, velvetfoot, YES I do like the foam thing and I have plans for the future of putting that tool to use.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 5, 2012)

Your doing fine DR. Most of us dont have the time and money to be restoring old windows,what ever we can afford thats out there for sale will have to do. Yes keep insulating where ever you can get it in, sometimes its easier do do it outside the framework and sometimes inside or best between.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 5, 2012)

I have done  a lot of old houses and my rule of thumb on insulation is: Good =blown cellulite in between the studs Better=+panel foam under the siding, Best= ++Foam under the drywall as well. Most of the time the blown in stud cavities is all you need. Also i change a lot of old wood windows that are falling apart.I would not even attempt to rebuild them.
All of this will return a better investment and make a much more confortable home  than just buying a bigger stove


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## Danno77 (Aug 5, 2012)

Just be glad you have insulating options. Short of putting up framing everywhere in my house and then having a mega massive overhaul of the trim (just imagine what the windows would be like if you added several inches of depth to your walls) I have very few options. Triple wythe brick with lathe and plaster right on the brick makes for an interesting factor when it comes to heating and cooling!


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 5, 2012)

I leave the plaster and lath right where it is and drill holes in it to blow in insulation. Too much work and  mess taking it off,and for no good reason ,i usually rewire.than blow cellulite then drywall the interior unless the plaster is darn near perfect.


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## Danno77 (Aug 5, 2012)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I leave the plaster and lath right where it is and drill holes in it to blow in insulation. Too much work and  mess taking it off,and for no good reason ,i usually rewire.than blow cellulite then drywall the interior unless the plaster is darn near perfect.


I misspoke in my previous post, so it sounds confusing. My exterior walls are plaster right on the bricks! No spaces anywhere to blow anything in!


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## ditchrider (Aug 5, 2012)

Danno77 said:


> Just be glad you have insulating options. Short of putting up framing everywhere in my house and then having a mega massive overhaul of the trim (just imagine what the windows would be like if you added several inches of depth to your walls) I have very few options. Triple wythe brick with lathe and plaster right on the brick makes for an interesting factor when it comes to heating and cooling!


Those isopropyl sheaths work pretty well. About r-6 or 7 per inch. Drywall over that and it's crazy what a difference it makes. When we first moved into the bedroom we overhauled the boiler was just kicking in. It was similar to walking by a grain silo in the summer sun but not as searing. The heat radiated onto my skin from the walls but the room wasn't hot. I put up stuff with foil facing. You never would have convinced me the foil would reflect heat through the drywall from the baseboards. Now when the wood stove is fired up it doesn't work that way, but the exterior walls aren't chilled out like they were with imperialboard and no insulation. Those old walls were cold as rock when the boiler was online, danged frozen when we only used the woodstove. What was really weird was my grandad put dry concrete mix behind the baseboards in the stud cavities. Over the years some of it was chunked up by moisture leaks or condensation. A real dog to clean out. I suppose he was thinking the mix would seal out air and help the baseboards contain heat. I was always taught concrete was a conductor. I know our concrete canals freeze on the floor first and then the water surface freezes in the winter.


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## Danno77 (Aug 5, 2012)

ditchrider said:


> Those isopropyl sheaths work pretty well. About r-6 or 7 per inch. Drywall over that and it's crazy what a difference it makes.


But for every window and door you have the wood casing that would need to be several inches deeper to accommodate the thicker walls. I'd have to scrap my 150 yr old casings or add wood which would look pretty stupid, I imagine. Then don't forget how you have to resize every piece of baseboard because the room is smaller. Not impossible, just cost and time prohibitive, IMO.


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## Frozen Canuck (Aug 5, 2012)

Kudos on the reno DR. FWIW triple wythe brick construction is getting pretty rare, as most just are not worth the reno. Add to that the conduction of heat & yes most are going the way of the dino's. Glad it worked out for you without breaking the bank. Happier life with a happy wife hey.


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## ditchrider (Aug 6, 2012)

Danno77 said:


> But for every window and door you have the wood casing that would need to be several inches deeper to accommodate the thicker walls. I'd have to scrap my 150 yr old casings or add wood which would look pretty stupid, I imagine. Then don't forget how you have to resize every piece of baseboard because the room is smaller. Not impossible, just cost and time prohibitive, IMO.


Yup, I see your point. I mean no offense, but I'm not sure i would stand still living in a rock like that. I'm pretty sure my wife would kill me or walk away. Very likely both .  It would be real kool owning a house of solid rock. I would be inclined to find some way to "fix it". It's better off in your hands. At least I have a rock that heats my home.

Another thing.. in your part of the country there's a lot of construction with REAL wood like oak and maple. Out here there's a lot built with (not what I mean as insulting) lighter wood like fir and pine. It was moreso the craftsmanship that made the home, not the material. Out there you often have the best of both worlds, which makes renovation an even tougher decision.

But in my life I never imagined I would discover studs milled of cottonwood.  I snapped one just by bending it like a javelin.


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## Danno77 (Aug 6, 2012)

Yep about the wood used in construction. Funny thing though, I have a bunch of nice looking old yellow pine trim, but I still find joists and studs made of oak. Kinda backwards from what folks today do!


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## begreen (Aug 6, 2012)

ditchrider said:


> Yup, I see your point. I mean no offense, but I'm not sure i would stand still living in a rock like that. I'm pretty sure my wife would kill me or walk away. Very likely both . It would be real kool owning a house of solid rock. I would be inclined to find some way to "fix it". It's better off in your hands. At least I have a rock that heats my home.


 
You could book a room here and try it out.
http://www.cappadociacavesuites.com/en/rooms.asp

Solid stone is a lot more common in the old world and in PA. BrowningBar's house is stone for example.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 6, 2012)

You have 2 choices with brick walls,foam on the outside or the inside,you figure out which is easier. If you do the outside the brick will act as a heat sink and the effect will be better.


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## begreen (Aug 6, 2012)

Is there no cavity between the 3 layers of brick?


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## Adios Pantalones (Aug 6, 2012)

To make a guess at the original Q:
People love wood stoves, have a romantic vision of them, and also think- installing more power is a lot quicker and easier than doing it right. Maybe cheaper in the short term.

People on this site tend to offer the advice to first insulate attics and stop air infiltration before thinking about stoves.

I had all my windows replaced. Yes I already had storms on them. I could walk around with a candle and try to find leaks, but these were bad. New ones are wood- way more $$$, but vinyl would have looked stupid in my log home.


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## Flatbedford (Aug 6, 2012)

My house isn't exactly a drafty old farm house, but it does have some short comings. Originally built as a one room railroad shack with basement, probably in the 1890s, it has been added to a few times over the years.the most recent addition wasdone in 1992 by an owner who didn't really know what he was doing. I have some modern, fairly well insulated walls, and some old walls that were covered in vinyl on the outside and sheetrock inside with little regard for what was between. The windows are all cheap vinyl from 1992. I have replaced the front door, and a slider in back with high quality modern units. The first few winters were chilly with huge propane bills. More use of the existing Franklin style stove helped, but upgrading to the Fireview cut my energy costs significantly at a cost (with 2009 tax incentives) of about $1800. I have saved about nearly $2000 a year since that. I could never get such a return on insulation, air sealing or better windows. My father in an architect with 40+ years experience in home renovation and energy efficiency. He is LEED certified and has followed and studied all the developments in home efficiency in construction and renovation through his entire carreer. He agrees that the better stove was the best investment we could have made for comfort and fuel savings ( as long as the firewood is scrounged and processed by me). What my place needs is to have all the vinyl ripped off, foam blown in to the walls, foam sheathing, and new siding installed. Where I live, that is probably a $20,000 or more job. I'll probably install another wood stove before I do that... or move.
Energy efficient new construction is relatively cheap and the pay backs are huge. Bringing an older, poorly renovated place like mine up to current standards is very complicated and expensive.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 6, 2012)

Adios Pantalones said:


> I had all my windows replaced. Yes I already had storms on them. I could walk around with a candle and try to find leaks, but these were bad. New ones are wood- way more $$$, but vinyl would have looked stupid in my log home.


Home depot has some nice looking wood windows for about $300 each. Looked pretty decent,i like stained wood on the inside,not sure if they were vinyl covered on the outside or not.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 6, 2012)

begreen said:


> Is there no cavity between the 3 layers of brick?


Personally i would put a thick layer of foam on the outside and cover it with log siding,keep those 3 layers of brick inside the thermal envelope. Plus log homes already have thick deep window frames so it would look completely natural.


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## Danno77 (Aug 6, 2012)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Personally i would put a thick layer of foam on the outside and cover it with log siding,keep those 3 layers of brick inside the thermal envelope. Plus log homes already have thick deep window frames so it would look completely natural.


this thing would look even weirder with log siding.


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## Danno77 (Aug 6, 2012)

And nobody say anything about the windows on the third floor. I'm so pissed at the previous owners who smashed out the leaded glass Gothic style windows that I can't even describe it.


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## johnny1720 (Aug 7, 2012)

My house was built in 1856 and the first year I heated the house it cost me $5000.  It was terrible to heat so I decided to start pulling plaster and lathe down and install insulation.  What I found was that my plaster and lathe was nailed directly to planks that held up the second floor.  So if you can imagine plaster and lathe nailed to 1.5" planking running up and down and then another 1.5" planing running diagonal then tar paper and siding.  I had to stud each wall, install electric, install insulation and drywall over it.  I was able to reduce my consumption of fuel oil and wood pellets however the price of those things has increased and I was still spending $3000 per year.  I installed R80 in the attic and I have replaced 32 windows with energy star rated ones.  The house is warmer but I gave up on fuel oil pellets and switched to geothermal.  

here is a picture of the plank walls,  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





Here is a picture of the insulation before I filled my attic with it,


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 7, 2012)

Yea tall and skinny dont go well with logs but you got to find someplace for insulation unless you want to keep heatin the outside forever.


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## Danno77 (Aug 7, 2012)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Yea tall and skinny dont go well with logs but you got to find someplace for insulation unless you want to keep heatin the outside forever.


the extra funny part is that the attic is finished, too, so tossing r-1,000,000 up there on the floor to help isn't an option either!

Really, it's not all that bad to heat and cool. It's certainly not cheap, but I've seen smaller houses with bigger problems. The thermal mass of the bricks helps offset SOME of the poor r-value. so it's got that going for it.


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## ditchrider (Aug 7, 2012)

Danno77 said:


> And nobody say anything about the windows on the third floor. I'm so pissed at the previous owners who smashed out the leaded glass Gothic style windows that I can't even describe it.


Even in my more naive years I would likely identify leaded glass. Pretty certain I'd find a reason or method to keep them.


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## ditchrider (Aug 7, 2012)

begreen said:


> You could book a room here and try it out.
> http://www.cappadociacavesuites.com/en/rooms.asp
> 
> Solid stone is a lot more common in the old world and in PA. *BrowningBar's house is stone for example*.


considering the number of stoves he owns and keeps burning I would have guessed he lived in a two story tent!


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## Littlespark (Aug 8, 2012)

Hey I have to weigh in on this thread.  I have a 1850s farmhouse in Michigan.  Cedar siding (yes original) and strange thickness walls.  I have the plaster / lathe set up also.  With all the plaster in the house It never gets over 80 degrees (even when its 100 our).  I keep it locked up tight during the day and open windows at night.  But anywho,  during the winter it used to be extremely drafty.  I started by replacing the windows with low E vinyl replacement windows.  At that time in my life I did  not have money for nice pella or anderson replacements.  I was poor poor poor.  Like raymon noodle poor.  I then pumped fiber insulation into all the walls through 3" access holes I drilled in the plaster at the top of each stud cavity.  This made a huge difference. 
Last winter I had 3" of closed cell foam sprayed from the basement floor all the way into the area that the studs rest on the carrier beams.  This also made quiet a difference (even with 2 foot + walls, the walls would have frost in the winter.).  This years plan is to attack the attic. 
I already have the attic insulated, but I have to replace some roof joists and I want to "beef up" the joists a bit. I'm also installing hurricane/wind load straps while up there fooling around with everything.   The old joists are starting to sag which is impacting the integrity of the metal roof.  While the joists are being replaced I am having the same guy that did the basement reinsulate the attic.  The current plan of attack is as follows:
1) Remove old insulation while checking for roof leaks
2) Any leaking areas will be re flashed + plus both chimneys will be re flashed. 
3) Then once the attic floor is shop-vacced (it really doesn't have a floor), he will spray 1" of the closed cell foam all over the attic floor.  This should add a draft barrier.
4) Then we (royal we) will use blown in non-fiber insulation.  We are going for R-60.
5) We are also going to install tow solar roof vents in the attic, but the will not be visible from the road.  This should keep the "old look" of the place.

As to why people don't attack the draft/ insulation issues first I don't know.  It might have something to do with the fact that many of these "improvements" don't really have a cool factor.   I mean give it a try.   The next time someone talks about something cool like a new corvette, or a nice new chainsaw, or a sweet splitting axe. . . . just drop into the conversation the fact that you insulated the north wall of your house.  It'll be just you and the cricket noise.  Just my thoughts. 

I will take photos when the work is done and post them for the critics.  I know the rule.

Littlespark


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## begreen (Aug 8, 2012)

Well the heck with the masses then, you're cool in my book Littlespark. Good work.


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## laynes69 (Aug 8, 2012)

I would rather invest in energy upgrades than have toys. Toys don't save me money year after year. After learning about airsealing, I prefer to gut and rebuild. I've found too many problems that were covered by lathe and plaster plus drywall. Our basement is extremely drafty, and eventually I want to spray foam where the floor joists meet the beams in the basement. I found out that balloon framed homes are difficult to airseal, but once you get an idea on construction it allows to understand the home better. To me it only makes sense to reduce the energy consumption if possible.


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## Frozen Canuck (Aug 9, 2012)

laynes69 said:


> I would rather invest in energy upgrades than have toys. Toys don't save me money year after year. After learning about airsealing, I prefer to gut and rebuild. I've found too many problems that were covered by lathe and plaster plus drywall. Our basement is extremely drafty, and eventually I want to spray foam where the floor joists meet the beams in the basement. I found out that balloon framed homes are difficult to airseal, but once you get an idea on construction it allows to understand the home better. To me it only makes sense to reduce the energy consumption if possible.


 
We need more folks to think like this. Reduce the load = #1 goal. After 3 decades building structures one thing is for certain nothing has as rapid an ROI as draft sealing & insulation. Pretty easy work in most cases as well. Too bad the typical North American attitude is just throw more HP at the situation.


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## begreen (Aug 9, 2012)

We have more grasshoppers than ants here I think.


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## Frozen Canuck (Aug 9, 2012)

Yep & we pay a big price for that. Heck if we were to even try to get close to what Germany or the scandic nations do we would have never even heard of an energy crisis.
Trouble is we largely wasted our resources & then went looking all over the globe for other peoples. Big picture we make bad neighbors.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 9, 2012)

One big problem with poorly insulated structures is they freeze solid in a few hours when the power goes out. My sisters vacation house lost heat for January and Febuary of 2010. When i checked the house at the end of febuary outside temp was 20 Deg during the day and 15 overnight. THe house was in the mid 30s,basement was in the 40s. Just the ground heat from the basement kept the house warm enough,never went below freezing for the worst part of the winter.Not a single pipe frozen.


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## woodgeek (Aug 9, 2012)

Seasoned Oak said:


> One big problem with poorly insulated structures is they freeze solid in a few hours when the power goes out. My sisters vacation house lost heat for January and Febuary of 2010. When i checked the house at the end of febuary outside temp was 20 Deg during the day and 15 overnight. THe house was in the mid 30s,basement was in the 40s. Just the ground heat from the basement kept the house warm enough,never went below freezing for the worst part of the winter.Not a single pipe frozen.


 
solar tempering is good for >5°F too, if the house is properly oriented and well insulated.


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## Flatbedford (Aug 9, 2012)

Frozen Canuck said:


> Too bad the typical North American attitude is just throw more HP at the situation.


 
More HP was the financially viable solution for us at the time. I had limited funds and HAD to spend less on fossil fuel. I will work at increasing efficiency as time and money allows.


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## Frozen Canuck (Aug 9, 2012)

Flatbedford said:


> More HP was the financially viable solution for us at the time. I had limited funds and HAD to spend less on fossil fuel. I will work at increasing efficiency as time and money allows.


 

NO, no not "you" in particular FB, we are all guilty of this, one of the big downsides of keeping energy cheap. No financial insentive to conserve.


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## Flatbedford (Aug 9, 2012)

I guess wood is _sort of_ cheap, but tightening up my place won't be. Way too much damage done during the crappy renovation of 1992 by an owner who knew how to do about 1/3 of the work and did the rest anyway.


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## begreen (Aug 9, 2012)

I hear ya FB, but that is what we inherited with this old farmhouse too. And I don't regret one moment of improving on that misdirection. Every step of the way we benefit along with the house, which hopefully will long outlive us.


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## jharkin (Aug 12, 2012)

Intersting... I'm definately with Danno on this one, prefer to do as much as possible without removing orignial detail or ripping out old windows. Actually probably better that I got to this thread late as I usually stick foot in mouth big time ranting against vinyl.

But anyway...

As an example, in our  house we did extensive caulking, weatherstripping, and blown in cellulose. No gutting, no window replacements.  Ive kept records for 3 years and all that work alone has reduced our energy consumption from over 13 BTU/FT2/HDD down to the mid 9s BTU/FT2/HDD. And this is in a 200+ year old structure.

Our windows are a mix of 100+ old wood counterweight double hungs (w storm), mid century vintage aluminum track wood double hungs (w storm), and some double pane windows in the newest part of the house (60s or 70s ?)  of varying vintage. Of all those windows the old counterweight jobs operate the smoothest and with cheap v-strip vinyl and storm windows are completely draft free.


As far as payback period... I think one thing that we often overlook is the embodied energy of building all the new materials and disposing of the old. Sure gutting every interior wall to spray foam will save you more on the heat bill than just blowing in cellulose.  But is the total energy to do all that work -energy saved really less than the energy saved via just doing the cellulose?  Same goes for windows, not to mention that old wooden single pane windows have a lifetime of basically forever with periodic painting and occasional reglazing vs. vinyl thermopanes that might last 30 years if your lucky before a seal breaks or something else goes that cant be replaces (asuming they even make replacemetn parts for it in 30 years). And all this effort to get maybe 1-2 R extra vs a single pane window with storm (R2)


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## BoilerMan (Aug 13, 2012)

I just have to reply here. What about the Low-E metal film on modern glass? Reflects long wave radiation back into the home in winter, although loosing some solar gain. With all this talk about old windows, I grew up in a circa 1922 Colonial, and you knew what the temp was by high the frost was on the inside of the window, yes with storms. Those counterweighted windows are still in that house and my parents still live there, frost and all. Baloon framed draftyness, ALOT of oil and wood has been burned there. But it is a beautiful house with lots of charactor, still with all the lathe and plaster covered with tasteful wallpaper, a B&B feel to it all. 
I am happy with my triple glazed windows and don't miss the condensation or frost. Oh and my mother came over once and saw me washing the outside of the window from the inside......lets just say she was a bit jealous.  And no climbing on a ladder 20' with a storm window in the fall to replace those five screens that Dad put on in the spring after it was 85 inside and we couldn't open any windows. BTW I do have wood siding and wouldn't have it any other way on my house, vinyl ain't final for anything windows or otherwise, but it boes make some good sever pipe, PVC that is.

TS


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## jharkin (Aug 17, 2012)

For the low-E... well if you want you can get storm windows made with it. I have been cautioned though that in storms you have to be excruciatingly careful as finger smudges wont clean off the coating without some nasty solvent, whereas in an insulated unit they can put the coating on the inside to avoid that pitfall.

The other thing about old windows and storms... I think a lot of people are used to windows that are not properly weatherstripped and the crappy aluminum triple track storms from the 60s/70s (that I'm dealing with) that dont seal well. If you tighten up the window a lot of those issues with frosting go away. You can do that on the primary window very easily and cheaply ( a couple dollars/window) with v-vinyl weatherstrip and a good modern storm like the Harvey s can be rather cheap ($100-$150/window) and seal nearly airtight.

The replacement window marketing "save $$$$$$ 50% on your heating bill" is a slight of hand that relies on two faulty assumptions they know must people will never check.

They compare a modern triple glazed, argon low-E (R2.5 or R3) window to an old single pane window with no weatherstrip and no storm (R-1 if you are lucky)
The "50%" savings is a savings of heat lost through the windows only. If you look at a typical old house like mine, windows account for maybe 10 or 15% of the total heat loss of the house. So the real savings is 50% x 10% = 5% !!
Ask a window manufacturer to show you a lifetime cost comparison of a replacement unit vs a storm and prove the savings. I bet they cant, as most replacements will fail before they reach payback. An example:

Lets say a single pane window = R1, a single pane with "good" storm = R2, and triple pane fancy replacement = R3

In my house I have 14 windows that are double hung single pane with old triple tracks. Lets be generous and say they are only R1.5 as I know they dont seal perfectly, and lets also be generous and call the windows 15% of my heat loss. In round numbers lets call my yearly heating bill $1000 of natural gas (its less than that due to wood).

Example 1:
replace all my windows with real wood divided lite triple glazed units. What am I looking at? $500 per or more. So I'm invested at least $7000 into windows. That will cut my heat loss 50% through the windows so 50% x 15% = 7.5% reduction x $1000 = $75 a year saved.

payback period = $7000 / $75 = *93 years*
And in reality, my payback period is actually never, because we all know these replacement windows wont last 93 years before seals fail or some plastic part of the track mechanism breaks that's out of production and cant be replaced.

Example 2:
replace all my storm windows with airtight Harvey tru channels to bring the windows up to R2. At an average of $125 per I'm invested $1750. That will cut my heat loss 25% through the windows so 25% x 15% = 3.75% reduction x $1000 = $37.50 a year saved.

payback period = $1750/37.50 = *46 years*
Even this is not worth it financially in my lifetime, but I may do it to improve the looks of the windows and cut down on condensation and road noise.

Even if I heated with oil and my fuel costs doubles I'm still looking at paybacks of 47 years and 23 years. And the numbers are worse if I take a loan and finance the new windows. And this is only my direct cost, we are not considering the life-cycle cost including disposing my old windows.

Compare that to the blown in insulation job I did for under $1000 that will pay back in under 5 years!


Good reading on windows:
http://www.oldhouseguy.com/windows.php
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze7aq8e/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/about_old_windows.pdf
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze7aq8e/homewindowrestorationwork/index.html
many many many more: http://historichomeworks.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1600&sid=d3b02090df4d0f491fec373ed87d5090


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## jharkin (Aug 17, 2012)

BTW, for anyone who who owns an old house (and old can be however you define it), likes old houses or is just interested in learning about traditional building methods I recommend you come join us over at http://www.oldhouseweb.com/forums. I've learned a ton from those folks, and you will see a number of familiar names over there.


Another good site for this stuff is http://historichomeworks.com however I just read so far, their forum is a lot more professional historic preservationist focused and I cant add anything they dont know...


Oh and one final point - note that I am all for installing the best quality highest performance fancy new windows you can afford in new construction.. Its only old houses I'm talking about here.


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## Danno77 (Aug 17, 2012)

While I'm not on OHW very much anymore, I have a thorough history of forum participation. Great people with a great cause, highly recommend the website.


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## sesmith (Aug 17, 2012)

Danno77 said:


> this thing would look even weirder with log siding.


 

Foam with stucco might work. It would change the character of the place (but you can't heat with character) and you'd have to frame out the windows. With some creative wood working, I could easily see it as a "tudor" revival, though the windows aren't quite right. You could add roof insulation by building up the roof and re-roofing. Looks like it's even steeper than 12-12...no way I'd ever be caught up there   I'd have an energy audit done and get some estimate on savings before I ever went to the trouble of doing anything with the walls.  I bet the roof would be cost effective though, especially if a newer roof is in it's future anyway.  It would look nice with standing seam metal.


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## Danno77 (Aug 17, 2012)

It IS steeper than 12/12 and three of the five quotes I tried to get for the roof wouldn't even give me a number because they said they wouldn't get up there. The picture is slightly deceiving, I think it's pretty tall, those windows on the first floor are about 6 1/2 ft tall, to give some perspective to the height.


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## Grisu (Aug 17, 2012)

This particular one is not on the market yet and the cost may be prohibitive but something like this would maybe be a possibility:
http://www.empa.ch/plugin/template/...orga=/type=/theme=/bestellbar=/new_abt=/uacc=
It will get a certain european look but may come close to the only way you can actually insulate your home.


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