# Precision felling cuts on bigger trees?



## Woody Stover (May 6, 2011)

Up 'til now, I've just been eyeballing it when I make my wedge and back cuts. I've got some 30"+ trees to fell, and a couple need to be dropped into tight areas. I'd like to hear your techniques for making sure they fall where you want 'em.
I think I remember reading a post where someone mentioned "measuring," (maybe smokinjay?) Can I lay out some chalk lines for my cuts? What do you do?


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## jebatty (May 6, 2011)

If precise felling is the need, especially for a larger tree, I always use a rope, snatch block attached to an anchor (tree) in the exact direction of desired fall, and a powered winch anchored (to a tree) off to the side and moderately close to the tree I am cutting to make it safe and easy to operate the winch between chainsaw cuts. Tie the rope to the tree a good ways up the trunk, 20' or so. First, some tension on the rope with the winch. Then make the notch cut. Then a little more winch tension. 

Then a plunge cut directly through the center of the trunk and exiting in the center of the notch. This cut should be at an angle above the notch to provide good back support for the trunk to reduce any likelihood of the tree falling backwards or off to the side. Widen the plunge cut enough to allow inserting a wedge(s) and still be able to cut the remaining sides with the chainsaw. I use plastic wedges in case the chain makes contact with the wedge on the side cuts.

Then alternately cuts down the sides towards the notch and increasing winch tension. Insert a wedge into the center cut as soon as the cut open up due to winch tension and keep the wedge tight into the cut as the cut continues to open up. Use stacking wedges as needed. The key here is NOT to cut too much down the sides so the tree starts to fall, but enough so that the winch finally pulls the tree down in the exact direction of desired fall.

Of course, safety gear in mandatory: helmet, face shield, ear protectors, and protective gloves, chaps, and boots. And another person to observe and warn if anything appears to be going wrong with the tree or the direction of fall, which should not happen due to the winch effect, but just in case, and also just in case there is an accident.

I'm sure other have their techniques, but this one also is used by a local logger and tree feller in residential areas. Rather than a winch, he uses his truck, driven by another person,  to do the pulling on his commands. The key though to this method is finally pulling the tree over, not letting it fall.


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## zzr7ky (May 6, 2011)

Hi - 

+ 1 on jebatty's description.  I have a lightweight 22' ladder that I can get the pulling line on with.  

I started using the plunge cut after I had a couple wedges stop when they hit the hinge : 0    And yes, several wedges have teeth marks on them from over enthusiastic back cuts.

Remember that many trees that are 30" in diameter are hollow.  Plunging first can tell you if there is a bad rot situation (i.e. a boom truck job).

ATB, 
Mike


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## Backwoods Savage (May 6, 2011)

Precise felling requires you to use Mother Nature and fell the tree where it wants to go. The only other choice is to climb the tree and attach a cable or very strong rope and then attach the other end to a tractor or truck to pull it where you have to fell it.

As to notching the tree, there are many sources on the Internet with examples on how to make the wedge cut and then to finish. Perhaps it is best learned by felling small trees and then working up to the big ones. Having an experienced man work with you also is excellent.


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## smokinj (May 6, 2011)

Woody Stover said:
			
		

> Up 'til now, I've just been eyeballing it when I make my wedge and back cuts. I've got some 30"+ trees to fell, and a couple need to be dropped into tight areas. I'd like to hear your techniques for making sure they fall where you want 'em.
> I think I remember reading a post where someone mentioned "measuring," (maybe smokinjay?) Can I lay out some chalk lines for my cuts? What do you do?




I make sure my saw is leval and make sure the wedge is perfect before moving on. To me this is where a longer bar is easier for me..I dont plunge for felling. I have used spray paint to make my lines before as well. If you have a tight landing zone I will use a rope (rope need to be 2/3 up) and winch and on a 30in tree leave a 4 inch henge and the tree will follow the rope. The 4 inch henge MUST BE IN PLACE! (chalk line should work well) Have plenty of wedges and get them in place as soon as possible. 

THIS ALL TAKES EXPERIENCE! Do You have Pic's?


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## KarlP (May 6, 2011)

In roughly order of importance.

1) My saws have a raised plastic line and/or black line on the airfilter cover and starter cover.







Those lines need to be pointed towards my drop target while I am cutting the notch. If they are not, I am almost guaranteed not to hit my target. 

2) On a 30" tree I'll use an open face notch and leave ~2.5" of hinge wood, so the tree will be parallel to the ground before the hinge breaks. 

http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/logging/manual/felling/cuts/notches.html

3) If the tree isn't clearly leaning the direction I want to go I make sure I have a tensioned rope up in the tree. The higher the better. 

4) Your notch should be about 1/3 of the way into the tree. If its 1/4, it will be reluctant to fall. If it is 1/2, you risk the tree falling in the opposite direction.  

5) The hinge should be sturdy and pretty darn close to level. If I make my notch cut and the groove isn't level, I'll take a little more off so it can be.  When I make my back cut I stop and check several times to make sure I'm leaving the same amount of wood all the way across the tree.  If I have a 2.5" wide level hinge 1/3 of the way into the tree like that, it will probably want to fall over on its own.  If not I'll persuade it by pulling on the rope or knocking a felling wedge into the back cut.  I will not cut the hinge wood smaller on a large tree.  Cutting through your hinge on a big tree is how you end up on youtube with a flattened pickup, porch, etc.


Practice hitting a garbage can lid with 8" trees.  Once you get that down, avoiding houses and sheds with 30" trees is the same thing + adrenaline.


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## RNLA (May 6, 2011)

Way to be KARLP, The gunning sight cast into the body is the best way to see where your going with your hinge cut. The other thing I do on any tree is estimate the height, go out to that area and find a target. This helps me to "aim" the saw, knowing where it will end. Then the only thing you have to worry about is not over cutting your hinge and wedge placement...


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## smokinj (May 6, 2011)

RNLA said:
			
		

> Way to be KARLP, The gunning sight cast into the body is the best way to see where your going with your hinge cut. The other thing I do on any tree is estimate the height, go out to that area and find a target. This helps me to "aim" the saw, knowing where it will end. Then the only thing you have to worry about is not over cutting your hinge and wedge placement...



Do you mean wedge cut? Henge is done on the back cut. No aiming at that point lol


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## smokinj (May 6, 2011)

KarlP said:
			
		

> In roughly order of importance.
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> 1) My saws have a raised plastic line and/or black line on the airfilter cover and starter cover.
> 
> ...



lol Not Quite! Nerves alone will screw with you! 30 inch tree around a house and a tight landing zone better left for the pros!............................


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## Backwoods Savage (May 6, 2011)

No, not garbage cans! Just drive a stake 50' from the tree but leave 2-3' of the stake out. Now drive that stake with the tree as it falls.


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## smokinj (May 6, 2011)

Backwoods Savage said:
			
		

> No, not garbage cans! Just drive a stake 50' from the tree but leave 2-3' of the stake out. Now drive that stake with the tree as it falls.



Then change the stake to a house and add 22 inchs lol!

THIS HAS PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS WRITTEN ALL OVER IT!

8 INCH tree you can make a lot of mistakes and over come them that your not going to be able to with a 30 inch tree....


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## remkel (May 6, 2011)

Backwoods Savage said:
			
		

> No, not garbage cans! Just drive a stake 50' from the tree but leave 2-3' of the stake out. Now drive that stake with the tree as it falls.



Even better, place a "soda" can out 50' from the tree and crush it for your recycling efforts. You could always line up more cans  if you have a lot of recycling to do.


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## Thistle (May 6, 2011)

Remkel said:
			
		

> Backwoods Savage said:
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That's what I do when I want to waste the nickel deposit lol.


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## wkpoor (May 6, 2011)

All good advise. One thing to note on larger trees. Some can be hollow or pithy inside. Felling a hollow tree can be very dangerous because you'll have no hinge. Making felling cut higher up the trunk can help get into solid wood. If its in an area where it has to fall a certtain way I would cable it off before cutting. Once you make the wedge cut you are committied to the job one way or another and if it hollow you could have a real bad deal on your hands. I did a 30+ diameter tall tree right next to a house once ( maybe stupid on my part to even take the job on since I'm not bonded). We put a cable on it pretty high up attached to a 200hp tractor and pulled snug. And it was hollow. Tractor kept tension whole time I was cutting. Lucky it had a happy ending but home owner was nervous as hell.


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## Thistle (May 6, 2011)

Sometimes the best thing to do is put on your climbing gaffs,harness & top it off 1 chunk at a time.I dont care to do that anymore,unless I could get in a time machine & reverse it about 15-20 yrs lol


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## smokinj (May 6, 2011)

Thistle said:
			
		

> Sometimes the best thing to do is put on your climbing gaffs,harness & top it off 1 chunk at a time.I dont care to do that anymore,unless I could get in a time machine & reverse it about 15-20 yrs lol



Thats the very best way! Now your talking even a "higher" skill level! lol


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## remkel (May 7, 2011)

wkpoor said:
			
		

> All good advise. One thing to note on larger trees. Some can be hollow or pithy inside. Felling a hollow tree can be very dangerous because you'll have no hinge. Making felling cut higher up the trunk can help get into solid wood. If its in an area where it has to fall a certtain way I would cable it off before cutting. Once you make the wedge cut you are committied to the job one way or another and if it hollow you could have a real bad deal on your hands. I did a 30+ diameter tall tree right next to a house once ( maybe stupid on my part to even take the job on since I'm not bonded). We put a cable on it pretty high up attached to a 200hp tractor and pulled snug. And it was hollow. Tractor kept tension whole time I was cutting. Lucky it had a happy ending but home owner was nervous as hell.



Have a lot of friends and neighbors that know I cut trees and ask me to "help them out with one or two" every once in a while. I am very particular about what trees I will cut near someone else's house. If there is even a question about which way it may fall I will not touch it. There have been some instances where I have to tell people that I will only cut where thy tell me to cut- I do not want the responsibility.


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## Woody Stover (May 7, 2011)

I've been cutting trees, including a few big ones, over the years. Alas, I didn't have enough extra trees to practice driving stakes into the ground.  :lol: I've stuck to the basics: Taking the tree where it wants to go, using a standard open-notch cut, etc. But this year I'm going to be doing more felling in an attempt to get several family members a couple of years ahead on wood. I'll mainly be cutting in the woods, not near houses. (I _did_ get to enjoy the adrenaline rush that you're talking about when I dropped a 30+ inch Sugar Maple close to the house. It took me hours to trim the branches off one side of the tree, and to complete the wedge cut. Making the back-cut was scary; Once it started to go, all I could do was pray.  :grrr:  I managed to miss all of the wife's shrubs and trees, and only knocked one bracket off the guttering. My legend grew with that drop, so I never mentioned to anyone that good luck played a major part.)
                                             :lol:
Anyway, the main obstacle I'll be facing is that I'll be brushing other trees with some of these fells. I know that can be dangerous, and I also don't want to have to deal with any hangers...too scary! I'll be taking the advice to determine the tree height and really assess the obstacles and landing area before I attempt anything questionable. If I don't think I can pull it off, I'll wait for it to fall on its own.
Thanks for all the great input! Didn't occur to me that you could pull a tree over. I don't have a winch and if I want to use human power to coax any trees, I'll need a looooong rope! My new saw has the felling sight. Never noticed it on the 039 since it wasn't black.   :-S
I'm also finding some good stuff online...thanks for the link, KarlP!


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## barkeatr (May 7, 2011)

I JUST bought a book on tree felling and learned a lot. It shows techniques other than rope to steer a tree out of its natural fall path...to a degreee. 

it also shows how some loggers insert a jack into a slot cut for it to lift one end of the tree...sounds crazy but these are pros doing it.  i forgot the name of it..but I purchased it through baileys


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## smokinj (May 7, 2011)

Woody Stover said:
			
		

> I've been cutting trees, including a few big ones, over the years. Alas, I didn't have enough extra trees to practice driving stakes into the ground.  :lol: I've stuck to the basics: Taking the tree where it wants to go, using a standard open-notch cut, etc. But this year I'm going to be doing more felling in an attempt to get several family members a couple of years ahead on wood. I'll mainly be cutting in the woods, not near houses. (I _did_ get to enjoy the adrenaline rush that you're talking about when I dropped a 30+ inch Sugar Maple close to the house. It took me hours to trim the branches off one side of the tree, and to complete the wedge cut. Making the back-cut was scary; Once it started to go, all I could do was pray.  :grrr:  I managed to miss all of the wife's shrubs and trees, and only knocked one bracket off the guttering. My legend grew with that drop, so I never mentioned to anyone that good luck played a major part.)
> :lol:
> Anyway, the main obstacle I'll be facing is that I'll be brushing other trees with some of these fells. I know that can be dangerous, and I also don't want to have to deal with any hangers...too scary! I'll be taking the advice to determine the tree height and really assess the obstacles and landing area before I attempt anything questionable. If I don't think I can pull it off, I'll wait for it to fall on its own.
> Thanks for all the great input! Didn't occur to me that you could pull a tree over. I don't have a winch and if I want to use human power to coax any trees, I'll need a looooong rope! My new saw has the felling sight. Never noticed it on the 039 since it wasn't black.   :-S
> I'm also finding some good stuff online...thanks for the link, KarlP!



ALL Saw's have a stright line to them somewhere.....(And work the same way as a painted line). If you need a black line just use black tape.


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## KarlP (May 7, 2011)

smokinjay said:
			
		

> ALL Saw's have a stright line to them somewhere.....



Small cheap saws often don't have them.  The Deere CS40LE (aka Cub Cadet CS3916 aka Efco MT4000) I got my dad doesn't have them.  Don't think I've seen them on a WildThing either.


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## drozenski (May 7, 2011)

smokinjay said:
			
		

> KarlP said:
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Even with a good landing spot cutting next to a house or building is best left to a pro. 

Last thing you want is the waif outside, you showing off your new chain saw by getting rid of the 30' tree always hated and then we see you dropping it the wrong way onto your house on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpJTJ5OA4HU


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## smokinj (May 7, 2011)

drozenski said:
			
		

> smokinjay said:
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This would put a slight damper on the day.....I have taken out a few fences in my day. Also trim boards. I hate missing the mark but best thing to rember is Your at on point or another going to miss! If its nothing you can hurt other than another tree thats pretty good odds though.


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## Woody Stover (May 8, 2011)

drozenski said:
			
		

> Even with a good landing spot cutting next to a house or building is best left to a pro.
> Last thing you want is the waif outside, you showing off your new chain saw by getting rid of the 30' tree always hated and then we see you dropping it the wrong way onto your house on youtube.


Yep I got lucky with that Maple, that's for sure. It was struck by lightning but I got it before any rot set in.
We don't have too many waifs in the 'hood, but my wife would have killed me before I had a chance to post anything on YouTube.  :lol:

I just got the OK from a neighbor to go after a couple of dead Ash, which I need to supply my peeps with dry wood for this Winter. One is a tight drop with other trees close to the fall line. Nothing is going to stop it once it starts falling; It's a big boy. I just need to look out for flying limbs. Armed with everyone's suggestions, I'll make a thorough assessment of the clearances before proceeding. Hopefully I can also minimize the collateral damage to other trees.
He also mentioned that he's been wanting to take out seven small to medium Black Locusts, so we took a look at them. A couple are leaners but I think I can handle them with a plunge back cut. I may have to steer another one to avoid hanging it or ripping a big branch off (it's a visible tree along the road, not off in the woods somewhere.) I can study up before I tackle those; Right now I've got to get the Ash stacked and drying. I like barkeatr's suggestion of getting a good book on the subject. There's going to be a lot of info in one place, so no need to scour the internet for bits and pieces here and there. That's worth spending a few bucks on, to me.


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## wkpoor (May 8, 2011)

Some years ago I took out a very large Elm for a neighbor right next to a fence and it was leaning the wrong way. So we anchored 2 vehicles off it. One was  full size van and the other was my 69 Impala. They were 90 degrees from each other so my car was the anchor point and the van was the puller. When the tree fell it snatched my car like a paper cup. Luckily it offered enough resistance that everything turned out alright and no fence was damaged. Would not have tried that if a house where at stake.


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## Exmasonite (May 8, 2011)

Only other thing to remember is to check your surroundings and have a good escape route, free of obstacles.


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## Woody Stover (May 8, 2011)

wkpoor said:
			
		

> we anchored 2 vehicles off it. One was  full size van and the other was my 69 Impala. They were 90 degrees from each other so the van was the anchor point and the van was the puller. When the tree fell it snatched my car like a paper cup.


And that's when you started buying the tractors?  :lol:



			
				Exmasonite said:
			
		

> Only other thing to remember is to check your surroundings and have a good escape route, free of obstacles.


Ya, I sometimes get a little lazy when clearing an escape route, and don't clear it out as well as I should. I'll do better.


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## MarkinNC (May 8, 2011)

Great thread guys.  I have a ~30 inch beech tree I want to take down at my friends farm.  Unfortunately it is dead and leaning the wrong way.  I can drop it the way it is leaning but then we will have to drag it out a a ravine with a tractor.  Threads like this are good for guys like me advancing our skill set.


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## Woody Stover (May 8, 2011)

MarkinNC said:
			
		

> I can drop it the way it is leaning but then we will have to drag it out a a ravine with a tractor.


I've got some stuff like that too. I'm thinking "be safer, do a little extra work pulling it out of the ravine rather than trying to fight it." Besides, I don't have tractors and what-not, just an ATV. But it _would_ be fun to mess around with winches, snatch blocks etc.
You know, a guy could go broke burning wood to save money.  :lol:


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## wkpoor (May 9, 2011)

MarkinNC said:
			
		

> Great thread guys.  I have a ~30 inch beech tree I want to take down at my friends farm.  Unfortunately it is dead and leaning the wrong way.  I can drop it the way it is leaning but then we will have to drag it out a a ravine with a tractor.  Threads like this are good for guys like me advancing our skill set.


Thats sounds like a real Beech! heehe Guess it depends on how much its leaning and how deep the ravine is as what is to do. Those are usually case by case basis. I've been then done that many times. Thats what hyd winches and snatch blocks are for.


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## golfandwoodnut (May 9, 2011)

I have used rope and a come-along to help encourage the fall of some big trees.  One  was real close to the house and I got it to drop right where I wanted, my goal was to just miss my daughters play house.  It landed perfect, and it was a rush.  Also did another one when a big Oak died right after we built the house.  I did not have as much experience then and probably should not have done it, but it landed as desired.  Now I am dropping them pretty regular, I had to take out 7 to make room for a new barn that I am trying to start.  Debating on the largest one yet because my wife is calling it fern gulley here.  It is a shame to eliminate some big trees, but I would hate for them to elminate my house or barn.  The Bobcat does also come in handy to give a final push when a tree needs a little help.  I would never try to get a big tree to fall the opposite way of the natural lean.  I also study the branches alot, more on one side etc.  I heard a story of one guy that tied his Jeep to a tree to pull it and it fell the wrong way and pulled his Jeep up into the Y of tree.  Be careful.


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## MarkinNC (May 9, 2011)

Woody Stover said:
			
		

> MarkinNC said:
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It is becoming more about fun lately though I like to call it a way of life.  With 2 chainsaws purchased in the last year along with other items, a snatch block and a throw line on the shopping list, I am saving a ton of money.  Thankfully the other poster wrote just to drop it the way it is leaning and I think that is good safe advice.  Sorry to take this thread off track, but this smaller beech I took last year is about 100 feet from the other one I am looking at.  That splitter mounted on the tractor is so slow I could start the piece and take a picture of my (then) 3 year old splitting it.  I rented a splitter last year once and my kids love running it.


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## wkpoor (May 9, 2011)

> That splitter mounted on the tractor is so slow I could start the piece and take a picture of my (then) 3 year old splitting it.  I rented a splitter last year once and my kids love running it.


Sounds like another tractor splitter running off the tractors hydraulics. Gives the process a bad name. I've devoted several posts lately to the benifits of tracotr splitters if you already own the tractor. It just takes the right setup with a PTO Powered Pump.


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## MarkinNC (May 11, 2011)

wkpoor said:
			
		

> > That splitter mounted on the tractor is so slow I could start the piece and take a picture of my (then) 3 year old splitting it.  I rented a splitter last year once and my kids love running it.
> 
> 
> Sounds like another tractor splitter running off the tractors hydraulics. Gives the process a bad name. I've devoted several posts lately to the benifits of tracotr splitters if you already own the tractor. It just takes the right setup with a PTO Powered Pump.



It is running off the tractor hydraulics and does needs it's own dedicated hydraulic pump.  It's a homemade unit and I actually broke some welds on it the first day I used it.  Those large rounds are not easy to get horizontal either.  I think a vertical feature is important on any splitter, though I have decided not to get one until I have to.


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## wkpoor (May 11, 2011)

When you have large rounds they are difficult scootin on the ground too. I can noodle up a large round into 4/6/9 pieces in  less time than I can screw with rasclin a big round up to a splitter but it takes the right saw and chain.


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