# Log Splitter Engine Damaged???



## KenLockett (May 31, 2018)

Hey guys went to change spark plug in my TSC Huskee Log Splitter.  I put in what I though was a equivalent replacement and the thread depth was longer than what I took out but threaded in no problem although went farther in than original.  Tried to start and felt like a lot less compression and made a whirring sound when I pulled.  After repeated pulls even had a pop.  Thought maybe plug wasn't in all the way but it was.  Took it out and electrode was bent over.  looked inside and could see piston moving in and out as I pulled starter and no obvious damage when looking inside with flashlight.  Put original plug back in and same thing.  Did I screw something up?  Didn't force the plug in and screwed all the way in although certainly deeper than original.  Any ideas?  Made video with sound but cant upload .mov files.


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## Ashful (May 31, 2018)

KenLockett said:


> Hey guys went to change spark plug in my TSC Huskee Log Splitter.  I put in what I though was a equivalent replacement and the thread depth was longer than what I took out but threaded in no problem although went farther in than original.  Tried to start and felt like a lot less compression and made a whirring sound when I pulled.  After repeated pulls even had a pop.  Thought maybe plug wasn't in all the way but it was.  Took it out and electrode was bent over.  looked inside and could see piston moving in and out as I pulled starter and no obvious damage when looking inside with flashlight.  Put original plug back in and same thing.  Did I screw something up?  Didn't force the plug in and screwed all the way in although certainly deeper than original.  Any ideas?  Made video with sound but cant upload .mov files.


Bent over electrode... you know what happened there.  But no obvious damage to piston and the fact that the rod ain't broken has me scratching my head on the loss of compression, esp. when the original plug is re-installed.  You would think that you'd have felt something unmistakable while pulling it over, if you had damaged the head or connecting rod.  

Was this splitter run with no issues before changing the plug?  How recently?  Any chance there's an issue with the recoil starter, which is compounding the confusion?


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## brenndatomu (May 31, 2018)

Probably bent a valve. Not an expensive part...but the labor could add up a bit unless you can DIY.
You can verify if the valve is bent by removing the valve cover and checking the valve clearance, the bent one will have way too much clearance.


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## DodgyNomad (Jun 1, 2018)

As mentioned above, check to see if you have a valve stuck open for any reason.  That would explain the loss of compression.


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## johneh (Jun 1, 2018)

Do a compression test . Top of piston my 
be cracked even though you can not see it 
If there is no compression remove cyl. head 
and check top of piston .


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## KenLockett (Jun 1, 2018)

Yeah ran it like a week ago and it started right up. I guess it could be the starter recoil. Never have taken a valve cover off but guess I could give it a try. Anything difficult I should be aware of?


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## Ashful (Jun 1, 2018)

brenndatomu said:


> Probably bent a valve. Not an expensive part...but the labor could add up a bit unless you can DIY.
> You can verify if the valve is bent by removing the valve cover and checking the valve clearance, the bent one will have way too much clearance.


If like any other TSC (Speeco) log splitter, this has a Briggs 675, or other similar flathead engine.  I don’t see any way to bend a valve on a flathead, by installing the wrong spark plug.  This ain’t your dual-overhead cam rice burner.

Also, there are no “valve covers” on flatheads, you would have to pull the head to see the valve, which I don’t recommend.  You would want to pull the breather cover to see the valve action, if you think they’re sticking, which is always an (unrelated) possibility.


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## VirginiaIron (Jun 1, 2018)

Maybe a stuck valve is a coincidence, unless something broke off the plug and is now holding the valve open. 

You should have felt the piston hit the plug. If it was hard enough you could damage the piston with hole or crack but you should see that through the opening.

"... Put original plug back in and same thing..." Bent electrode?

Maybe you broke the shear pin on the flywheel and the engine is no longer in timing. 

If you have no compression due to rings or crack, put a tablespoon of engine oil down the hole and spin the crank over several times, then install the plug and see if compression is restored.

Keep us posted.


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## greg13 (Jun 1, 2018)

Possible cracked head or plug threads stripped from the plug being pushed by the piston. You should pull the head just to get a good look.


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## Ashful (Jun 2, 2018)

VirginiaIron said:


> Maybe... something broke off the plug and is now holding the valve open.



Based on the information we have, this seems to be the most likely scenario.  Pulling the head is the only way to know for sure.  

Buy a new head gasket, and re-torque to 140 in-lb when done.  Yes, that’s from memory, I’ve owned a few Briggs 675’s.


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## Ashful (Jun 2, 2018)

greg13 said:


> Possible cracked head or plug threads stripped from the plug being pushed by the piston. You should pull the head just to get a good look.



But he didn’t indicate any problem torquing the old plug back in.  We are missing something, here.  

A photo of both plugs would help.  Show damage on new plug, is there any missing ceramic?


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## maple1 (Jun 2, 2018)

Every once in a while a thread comes along that makes you want to be able to pop thru your computer screen so you can be there & see something for yourself. This would be one of those.


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## KenLockett (Jun 3, 2018)

Guys more video and photos to follow.


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## jetsam (Jun 3, 2018)

It could be that the engine was sitting in the middle of the intake stroke when the new plug was installed, and that it actually managed to fire before it smashed the electrode down. Then if the piston couldn't come up to the top so the cam could roll over into the power stroke, badness ensues. I'd guess bent rod on that one.

On the flip side, it could be that the engine was at the exact top of a stroke when the plug was installed, and the electrode was bent over by the act of installing the plug until it hit the piston. In that case the engine might be fine...


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## KenLockett (Jun 3, 2018)

Guys see attached photos.  As you can see the wrong plug is substantially longer than the correct plug and the electrode is squashed.  Also took photo looking into the cylinder.  The piston looks offset.  Not sure if this is by design or not.  What I notice is that for every two revolutions of the flywheel the piston moves forward then starts to retract immediately at beginning of third revolution and so on.  You can see on the cylinder where the plug contact made contact.  Verified I was getting spark then put everything back together.  Will just not fire and feels differently I think.  Ever so often after enough pulls a pop sound that I suspect if fuel trying to ignite.  The plug is wet if I take it out.  Think I messed up.  Any further suggestions short of taking the head cover off and trying to repair, set timing, etc.?  My heart is not really in it to be honest.  If something bent or damaged is taking it to a small engine repair shop going to cost me more than a new engine at $297 prime on amazon for same engine or less than $200 for harbor freight predator although not sure a direct replacement.  Figure putting new engine on is relatively painless and easier than trying to break this one apart and repairing that I have never done.






   I should have just left it alone.  Can't believe I didn't compare plugs before putting the new one in. Let me know what you guys suggest.  Thanks.


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## KenLockett (Jun 3, 2018)

jetsam said:


> It could be that the engine was sitting in the middle of the intake stroke when the new plug was installed, and that it actually managed to fire before it smashed the electrode down. Then if the piston couldn't come up to the top so the cam could roll over into the power stroke, badness ensues. I'd guess bent rod on that one.
> 
> On the flip side, it could be that the engine was at the exact top of a stroke when the plug was installed, and the electrode was bent over by the act of installing the plug until it hit the piston. In that case the engine might be fine...



Remember once I installed the plug I tried to start it a number of times.  It would have been ramming the plug on each stroke right?


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## Highbeam (Jun 3, 2018)

Was it running with the old plug before you decided it needed fixing? Like the same day? Could be anything from bad fuel to failure to hook up the plug wire right. 

Compression, fuel, spark. 

The oem engine isn’t exactly built like a tank but a flathead engine is also pretty forgiving.


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## brenndatomu (Jun 3, 2018)

Oh holy cow, that plug is A LOT longer than the old one! The chance it has the piston damaged is pretty good IMO.
So what make/model engine is on this thing anyways?


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## maple1 (Jun 3, 2018)

Should be pretty easy to check compression.


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## DodgyNomad (Jun 3, 2018)

Long plug for sure.  Pop the head off and check the damage.  Not a hard job, best way to take inventory of what you're working with.


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## Ashful (Jun 3, 2018)

brenndatomu said:


> Oh holy cow, that plug is A LOT longer than the old one! The chance it has the piston damaged is pretty good IMO.
> So what make/model engine is on this thing anyways?


It's a Briggs 675 series.  You can tell from the pic of the head, not to mention that's the primary motor used on 22-ton Huskee splitters.

Given the way the electrode is bent, twisted to the side rather than just smashed straight down, it seems most likely it was bent during installation rather than during a piston stroke.  This really reduces the likelihood of piston damage.


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## brenndatomu (Jun 4, 2018)

Ashful said:


> If like any other TSC (Speeco) log splitter, this has a Briggs 675, or other similar flathead engine.  I don’t see any way to bend a valve on a flathead, by installing the wrong spark plug.  This ain’t your dual-overhead cam rice burner.
> 
> Also, there are no “valve covers” on flatheads, you would have to pull the head to see the valve, which I don’t recommend.  You would want to pull the breather cover to see the valve action, if you think they’re sticking, which is always an (unrelated) possibility.





Ashful said:


> It's a Briggs 675 series.  You can tell from the pic of the head, not to mention that's the primary motor used on 22-ton Huskee splitters.
> 
> Given the way the electrode is bent, twisted to the side rather than just smashed straight down, it seems most likely it was bent during installation rather than during a piston stroke.  This really reduces the likelihood of piston damage.



OK, so we have established you are very familiar with the BS 675...which the OP still has not verified that this is actually his model...but if it is a 675, then yes, I agree that its probably not very likely a valve got bent. And I will also agree that it is not likely that the new plug punched a hole straight through the piston without the OP ever feeling or hearing anything really strange. But I did say "piston damage", which grinding the electrode into the piston while it is at TDC (if that's how things went down) "piston damage" very likely occurred. (unless the plug is not actually located over top the piston?) Maybe piston metal shavings fell onto the cylinder wall, or in/on rings...or maybe a nice chunk of aluminum from the piston was carved out and bounced over into one of the valves, holding it open...heck even just some carbon buildup knocked loose could do that same things as actual metal.
A simple compression test, or even better (but less likely the average Joe has the tools to do) a leakdown test, would tell us a lot here. If no gauges are available, then just pop the head off...I would think it could be done in a couple minutes, even less if there are no "auxiliary items" or sheet metal in the way. The closeup pic of the sparkplug shows 3 of the bolts holding the head on...there are 5 more just like that...really not much to taking the head off for a quick looky look.


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## brenndatomu (Jun 4, 2018)

brenndatomu said:


> (unless the plug is not actually located over top the piston?)


Thinking about this a bit more, it looks to me like the plug is actually located in the space between the piston and the 2 valves...is it possible the plug is actually over top the edge of one or both of the valves...with one of them hanging open when the plug was screwed in it would have wiped that side electrode to the side like that...then bent the valve, either upon plug install, or when the engine was turned over. IDK, whatever we are looking at in that "down the spark plug hole" pic looks to have a nick in it...


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## maple1 (Jun 4, 2018)

Ya - I think that's a valve we're seeing in the plug hole, and not the piston.

*What I notice is that for every two revolutions of the flywheel the piston moves forward then starts to retract immediately at beginning of third revolution and so on.*

That doesn't sound like piston action.

I'm calling bent valve - it's stuck open in the pic..


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## KenLockett (Jun 4, 2018)

Highbeam said:


> Was it running with the old plug before you decided it needed fixing? Like the same day? Could be anything from bad fuel to failure to hook up the plug wire right.
> 
> Compression, fuel, spark.
> 
> The oem engine isn’t exactly built like a tank but a flathead engine is also pretty forgiving.



Yes it was running great the week before. Started in first pull last time I ran it. Bought the plug over the winter intending to change it in the spring. Finally got around to it. 

What I haven’t checked is actual compression using a gauge. Drained fuel and put new fuel in as well. No difference. Just will not fire.


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## maple1 (Jun 4, 2018)

That might not be the best vid, just one I grabbed real quick.

Should be an easy fix - just grab a new valve & pull it apart. I think it's your intake valve but could do both at the same time.


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## Ashful (Jun 4, 2018)

maple1 said:


> Ya - I think that's a valve we're seeing in the plug hole, and not the piston.
> 
> *What I notice is that for every two revolutions of the flywheel the piston moves forward then starts to retract immediately at beginning of third revolution and so on.*
> 
> ...


I think you nailed it.  The plug is biased toward the valves on that head.  Never noticed if it's actually over them, but looking again at that photo, I agree that looks like a valve.


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## VirginiaIron (Jun 4, 2018)

What you are seeing move is probably the valve. The piston is a 1 to 1 ratio an you have 4 cycles per ignition.The electrode appears intact but pushed into the plug. The porcelain insulated is missing a piece and I bet that piece is holding a valve open.

Where is it popping from, exhaust or carborator? If carb, likely intake valve. From muffler would be exhaust valve. Should be a simple fix unless valve is bent- $4? for a gasket. If you pull the head the porcelain (presumed) should be visible with a valve that doesn't close.


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## Ashful (Jun 4, 2018)

If valve is held open by ceramic, total cost of repair is $6.50 for a head gasket.  That gasket is so popular that even Home Depot keeps them in stock (garden dept.), and you can order them on Amazon Prime.

If valve is bent, then you might get away with just swapping the bad valve ($12) out and lapping the new one in to the old seat.  If you have to replace the seat ($5) or guide ($7), then you’re into a little tooling.  Installing valve guides is not that difficult, but you need a tap and bolt to extract the old one, a tool to hammer in the new one, and a reamer to finish it off before inserting the new valve.  Guides are always recommended, when replacing valves, but not always necessary.


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## KenLockett (Jun 4, 2018)

Ok guys so sounds like first step is to remove head. Do I need to drain the oil first?  Once Head is off I can inspect and determine issue. Will have gasket available for reinstalling head. Do I need gasket seal when putting back on and does anyone know torque requirement on head bolts?  Should be a learning experience. I actually rebuilt the transmission on my lawn tractor so I assume I should be able to figure this out. Haven’t looked at the video yet but will.


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## KenLockett (Jun 4, 2018)

This is the Briggs 675e series 4 stroke engine by the way.


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## brenndatomu (Jun 4, 2018)

KenLockett said:


> Do I need gasket seal when putting back on and does anyone know torque requirement on head bolts?


No, dry gasket.
Ashful posted the torque in the first few replys.
Oh, no need to drain oil just to remove the head.


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## KenLockett (Jun 5, 2018)

Thank you. Will keep everyone posted on what I find.


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## rox3406 (Jun 5, 2018)

Seen this many times before. Def a bent valve. And you can’t just buy a new valve and stick it in. The valve lash has to be set by grinding the lifter after the new valve is lapped in. Case has to be split and all that.


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## Ashful (Jun 5, 2018)

rox3406 said:


> Seen this many times before. Def a bent valve. And you can’t just buy a new valve and stick it in. The valve lash has to be set by grinding the lifter after the new valve is lapped in. Case has to be split and all that.



My god, that’s a horrible design, if that’s the case.  Every single-cylinder flathead I’ve ever done a top end on had adjustable lifters.  Are you certain the 675e doesn’t have any lifter adjustment?  What did that save them, a six pennies per engine?

Ken, I have a 2 year old 675e that’s a direct fit onto your Huskee 22-ton, I removed it from my own Huskee 22-ton machine when I upgraded the pump and engine.  You could have it for half the new price, if we can find a way to get it from here to there.

Me?  If rox is right about those lifters, I’d use this as an excuse to hotrod that machine.


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## KenLockett (Jun 5, 2018)

How would you hot rod the machine Ash?  You mean different engine than the BS 675e?  Only complaint I have is slow cycle speed and hard to start I cold with no choke.


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## Ashful (Jun 6, 2018)

KenLockett said:


> How would you hot rod the machine Ash?  You mean different engine than the BS 675e?  Only complaint I have is slow cycle speed and hard to start I cold with no choke.


I think I wrote a whole thread on it, when I did mine, but basically:

1.  Upgrade pump from 11 GPM to 16 GPM (the largest the port size on that cylinder will support).
2.  Upgrade engine to at least 300cc to support larger pump.
3.  Upgrade suction line and fitting size to support larger pump.
4.  Upgrade steel line that runs from valve to top of cylinder to 1/2" ID hose.
5.  Add key switch and starter solenoid, so you can jump start that big motor/pump off your tractor when it's cold out.

This will take your cycle time from 11-12 seconds down to 8 seconds.  I did this with my own machine a year ago.


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## KenLockett (Jun 6, 2018)

Ash, not sure hot rodding the splitter really my cup of tea.  Lol.  Anyhow, going to take the head off and see what I find.  If valve bent and Rox is correct with regard to repair, I can't do it and probably not cost effective to take it in to anyone.  In that case I may be interested in your engine and may be in the Eddystone, PA area in the near future on business.  Were you thinking $100 to $150 for the engine?  I told myself if I ever had to replace the engine I would get a Honda for easier starts and better fuel economy.  Any idea cost wise what a fit compatible Honda might run.  Don't want to get into any mechanical mods to make it fit though.  Heard Honda engine with metal gas reservoir way to go and that ones with plastic reservoirs are junk.


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## Ashful (Jun 6, 2018)

Whatever average price you find for a new one, I’d be happy to take half that for this one.  Just PM me when you know which direction you’re headed with this.


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## KenLockett (Jun 11, 2018)

Well I certainly damaged the engine as the photos below show after taking the head cover off.  You can see where the valve is bent left.  Question is whether this configuration requires splitting the case as Rox mentioned or whether the valve can simply be replaced.  From my perspective and I am not a small engine expert here, I don't see how the valve is simply replaced without tearing into the entire engine.  What would you guys do?  Try to fix or replace with new engine depending upon cost?  I found a Honda GSV190 for roughly $300 that matches in just about every category although a bit more horsepower that I do not suspect will hurt anything.  Problem is vertical shaft is over three inches and existing engine is only 1 15/16.  Same for Harbor Freight Honda clone although smaller displacement and lower torque.  About same as Honda GCV160.  Both GCV160 and HF Clone less expensive considerably.  Do you guys think those would drive my pump efficiently?  I can publish specs on all three if it helps.  Not sure how difficult it is to grind the shaft down and/or if it would have to be tapped/threaded/keyed again.  Again I do not have a lot of tooling to do these things.  Cannot see the specific coupling to the pump underneath the splitter.


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## blades (Jun 11, 2018)

rather than trying to or having it done (shortening the shaft) just add a spacer of the appropriate height  to make up the difference ( us rednecks go at things a bit differently at times )  a hard wood board(s), poly plastic  or similar  ( I am not fond of a whole stack of washers though that is also a possiblity)Longer bolts + appropriate lock washers and nuts. Nylock nuts tend to give up if too much heat is incurred. ( thermal transmission from eng. case) should be solid between two bolts otherwise all the stress is just on the block mounting tabs. Hope that gives some ideas. Small engines with in a specific cc range use the same mounting pattern  or at least they used to. Easy enough  to waller out the mounting plate holes for some leeway if needed  pump is coupled to motor with a lovejoy unit - flexible a bit to accommodate a bit of alignment disparity.  Course this all goes out the window if the pump is a direct mount, even there spacers could be utilized.


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## VirginiaIron (Jun 11, 2018)

Most of those old school valve set ups have an access side cover typically with a breather tube. You could access the valves and valve locks from behind that cover plate. You engine could be different. If it is the same, slam a valve in there, lap if desired, and go.


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## rox3406 (Jun 11, 2018)

You can replace the valve without splitting the case. The problem is the valve lash. Can’t set that without spitting it. You could just slam a valve in and see what happens they are cheap. If the lash is to much it will just make a little noise. If to little It may not start due to the valve hanging open a bit. You could file the end of the valve if to little lash. It’s just not the correct way to do it. But will accomplish the same task. You could also just wack the bent valve till it looks straight and try it.


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## maple1 (Jun 11, 2018)

You can swap valves without splitting. Did u check out that vid I posted above?


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## brenndatomu (Jun 11, 2018)

rox3406 said:


> You could also just wack the bent valve till it looks straight and try it.


This is what I was thinking...just not brave enough to post it before...BTDT, and it worked. Just need to use a little finesse and a brass punch or something "soft" like that. Suppose a piece of Oak would work too. Turn the engine to the point where that valve is fully open and then give 'er a tap in the right direction. Check progress after each tap and just be patient...these valves are pretty small and you may be surprised how easy a stem can be bent...if it doesn't work, then you are out only a bit of time...sure can't hurt it any at this point.


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## KenLockett (Jun 11, 2018)

Will try to ‘realign’ using your suggestions then if that doesn’t work will watch video. Thanks guys and will keep you posted.


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## Ashful (Jun 12, 2018)

Pull the breather cover, and let’s get a photo in there.  Flatheads like these always have the lifters, springs, and retainers behind the breather cover, and it’s usually just two or four screws to get that removed.

If what rox is saying is accurate, that the lifters must be ground to match the valve, couldn’t one just drop a new lifter in there and then grind the end of the valve stem instead?  Easy valve replacement, without splitting the case.

Me?  Even if Briggs made this engine to require initial factory set-up the way rox describes, I’m having trouble believing they wouldn’t have a repair contingency or after-market lifter that can be adjusted, to facilitate valve replacement in the field.  I’ve just never seen anything like that... but the last Briggs I rebuilt was admittedly much older.

I’d never try straightening a bent valve, it’s sure to fail shortly down the road.  I’d put a new one in there, even if the lash is short.  If the lash is long, then you can simply grind the end of the new valve stem to bring it into spec.  Running a bent valve is going to ruin your valve seat, and probably the guide, putting you into a much bigger repair.  When I say “bent”, it could be imperceptible, beyond your ability to measure on an assembled engine.


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## VirginiaIron (Jun 12, 2018)

The seating of the valve is most important. I'd opt for a new valve, a grinder and/or a fine stone.


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## KenLockett (Jun 12, 2018)

Ok. I bent the valve back into line as best as I could and very close. Tried but couldn’t get it to start. Definitely made a difference as a bit more compression and no more pop after a number of tries. Just will not start though. Deciding whether to access valve assembly and may do so but my interest peaked by the Honda GSV190 replacement engine with longer shaft. I was looking at the shaft and how it mates into the lovejoy coupling. From base of shaft to end of coupling where pump is on bottom of plate is 4 inches. If the length of the shaft is indeed a little under two inches then the coupling is two inches from that point to where it mounts to pump. Are the couplings meant to handle excess shaft length internally for adjustability. Not sure if I am clearly explaining myself but wondering if shaft length adjustablility is built into the lovejoy coupling internally????


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## VirginiaIron (Jun 12, 2018)

Typically, you want close to a full shaft inside the coupling. You can always use longer bolts with washers/spacers at the engine/pump flange to move the engine or pump away from each other. I did this on my engine side to compensate for a longer shaft.


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## KenLockett (Jun 12, 2018)

Well if the full shaft is inside the coupling then the shaft 3-4 inches long that is inline with the 3” shaft that appears to be on most of the replacement engines. Specs on the BS 675e say true shaft is just under 2”. I may be good if I go with longer shaft. Just don’t really want to build engine up any higher with washers, spacers, grommets or anything else if I can help it. If engine is any higher it would be in the way I think and I like to do things ‘aesthetically’ you might say. Would grind down the shaft before building up engine mount to take up shaft length I think. When I get my next burst of  energy will most likely take engine apart and replace valve as you guys mention parts are inexpensive.


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## VirginiaIron (Jun 12, 2018)

Get a longer pump flange.


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## Ashful (Jun 13, 2018)

If this is like my Huskee (both TSC rebranded Speeco splitters), then the 675e shaft might already be within 1/8” of the pump shaft, requiring a special open center spacer in the Lovejoy.   Easiest thing is to pull motor and measure from motor mount plate to end of pump shaft, and then verify this is how Honda measures their shaft length (it should be).  No pump flange on these, Virginia, although Ken could cut the original pump mount off the frame and go that way.


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## VirginiaIron (Jun 13, 2018)

Ashful said:


> If this is like my Huskee (both TSC rebranded Speeco splitters), then the 675e shaft might already be within 1/8” of the pump shaft, requiring a special open center spacer in the Lovejoy.   Easiest thing is to pull motor and measure from motor mount plate to end of pump shaft, and then verify this is how Honda measures their shaft length (it should be).  No pump flange on these, Virginia, although Ken could cut the original pump mount off the frame and go that way.


Sorry for the confusion. To me, pump flange would mount to the pump mounting bracket, which would mount to the crankase of the engine. I forgot that vertical engines typically include the engine mount plate.


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## KenLockett (Jun 14, 2018)

Guys cost to replace parts for the one valve (whole train) including head gasket is roughly $52.  You know I could get a Honda GCV187 right now on Northern Tool for $204 with coupon.  This particular unit has SAME length shaft and everything else equal on Briggs 190CC although 3600 RPM although BS specs say 3100 RPM although splitter manual says 3600 RPM!!  Anyhow, don't think it matter to run this Huskee 11GPM pump at 3600 if it already isn't running at that speed.  What do you guys think?  Would really like an easier starting engine, maybe quieter and more fuel efficient too.  Actually a bit more torque as well although not sure if this is a pro or con in this case.  I'm still concerned I get new valve in and still have to deal with lashing adjustment, etc. and who knows if it'll run.  I'm not exactly a small engine mechanic.  What do you think.  Only $200 for new Honda engine that I suspect is better than the Briggs anyhow.


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## spudman99 (Jun 15, 2018)

New engine.  Engine is the most complicated part of the splitter.  You should get many years out of the splitter this way and of course not have to worry about future failure.  Yes its an extra $150 but you save probably half of that in less repair time, plus you said you lack some of the tools and the specialized knowledge.


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## johneh (Jun 15, 2018)

Go for the replacement engine !! Save yourself a whole lot 
of pain You do not have the training to do the work necessary 
How is the valve seat does it need replacement does it need
to be ground . The new valve should be lapped in so it does 
not burn and seals properly. Just an old retired mechanics 
2 cents worth  if you want it done right let a pro. do it


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## Ashful (Jun 15, 2018)

No issue with spinning that pump at 3600 rpm.  In fact, you need to spin it at that speed to come anywhere near the 11 second cycle time they spec on that splitter.  Do the simple math, and you’ll see!


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## KenLockett (Jun 17, 2018)

Hey guys if I could get your advice here.  Taking the engine off the splitter and trying to figure out how to separate the engine shaft from what I presume is the Lovejoy coupling.  there is a set screw at both ends of the coupling.  I assume bottom for the pump shaft and top for the engine shaft.  Took out the top set screw and not sure if I need to do anything else other that yank the engine out pulling engine shaft out of the top half of the coupling.  I see there appear to be keys in the coupling but not sure if I need to maybe punch these out?  The engine shaft does not want to easily separate by the way.  Don't want to break anything so going slow and learning and hoping you guys can help.  Attached is photo of the set screw.  It did not come out easily so hoping I didn't break end of it off??  Take a look and is this what the set screw should look like?  Anything missing?  Thanks.


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## KenLockett (Jun 17, 2018)

Just found a video from Lovejoy on installing the coupling.  What I thought were maybe keys appear to be the spider legs I think.  Guys does the set screw look OK?  Do I just need to apply a mallet in the upper direction to unfreeze the shaft?  Is a lubricant normally required?  Any advice appreciated.  Don't think it would be seized as almost no corrosion on the splitter parts as it has never been in the elements.  Any benefit in possibly replacing the coupling or is it not really necessary?


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## brenndatomu (Jun 17, 2018)

As long as the allen wrench still fits nice n tight in the screw, then they still look OK. Those only need to be loosened to remove the coupling from the shaft. You should be able to remove the engine with the coupling still on the shaft...it should just pull right apart at the spider. The spider/insert may come off with the engine, or may stay with the pump.
The only reason to remove the coupling for engine removal would be if the engine shaft goes through a smaller hole than the coupling OD.
Once the engine is off, you can soak things with some WD40 or something like that, then tap the coupling off. Some heat on the coupling from a torch would help move things along too...or a small 3 jaw puller would make quick work of it if you have one.
It probably is not going to come of easily...they have kind of a "friction fit" when new, and then over time seem to grow in place.


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## maple1 (Jun 18, 2018)

KenLockett said:


> Just found a video from Lovejoy on installing the coupling.  What I thought were maybe keys appear to be the spider legs I think.  Guys does the set screw look OK?  Do I just need to apply a mallet in the upper direction to unfreeze the shaft?  Is a lubricant normally required?  Any advice appreciated.  Don't think it would be seized as almost no corrosion on the splitter parts as it has never been in the elements.  Any benefit in possibly replacing the coupling or is it not really necessary?



A bit unclear. Is the engine still on the splitter? You shouldn't have to do anything to the lovejoy to get the engine off, the coupling just pulls apart. Nothing is holding it together. So just unbolt the engine mount bolts & pull the engine off, I think.

Then once the engine is off, that half of the coupling is much easier to get at and work at to get it off. It should slide off with some persuasion. A puller is the best way to do it. Shouldn't take much. A puller for that should be pretty cheap.

If the rubber spider thingie between the coupling halves looks good, just reassemble. If it looks worn or chewed, you could get a new one. You could also just get a new engine coupling half and put on new engine if you want, if the old one refuses to let go for some reason and you don't want to mess with it.


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## KenLockett (Jun 18, 2018)

Thanks guys.  That all makes perfect sense.  Will make another go of it this evening.  Think maybe I missed something on the mount.  It was late and I didn't have the best light.


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## Ashful (Jun 18, 2018)

KenLockett said:


> Thanks guys.  That all makes perfect sense.  Will make another go of it this evening.  Think maybe I missed something on the mount.  It was late and I didn't have the best light.



It’s been awhile, but I seem to remember that engine having three mounting bolts.


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## KenLockett (Jun 18, 2018)

Guys I finally got the engine off.  Shaft length is 2 1/2 inches.  Bolt pattern is 8 inches on center.  The Honda GCV190 shaft is only 1 7/16".  Honda GCV160 shaft is 2 1/2 inches.  BUT...according to specs the bolt pattern is 8 1/2".  Ughhh.  Is this typically 8 1/2" on center or 8 1/2" from outer diameter of each hole?  Wouldn't you think ALL these engines would have a common or standard bolt pattern?  Bottom line is the GCV190 with longer Lovejoy or GCV160 as is would work AS LONG as the bolt patterns line up.  What do you guys think?  Think this GCV160 will line up??  The GCV190 is actually $10 less as Northern Tool.  Any further advice certainly appreciated.  I just want to get a replacement engine and put this to bed.  By the way, looked at the Harbor Freight 173CC vertical (only one by the way that is even close) and it has maximum RPM of 3200 so not sure I would get the flow I need.  But of course published bolt pattern is 8 inches.  I know some have replaced engine on their Huskees.  What engine did you get and did anything of them line up exactly without any modifying.


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## KenLockett (Jun 18, 2018)

Here are the specs on the Honda GCV160.  Now questioning whether the shaft is keyed.  Anyone know?


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## Ashful (Jun 18, 2018)

The bolt pattern is a non issue.  Got a drill?  Print out the new engine bolt pattern full-scale, and transfer it to the mounting plate.


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## KenLockett (Jun 18, 2018)

Agreed but if the new holes and pattern are such that they overlap the existing holes then possibly a problem.


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## KenLockett (Jun 18, 2018)

What about shaft key?  The GCV190 lists a 3/16" keyway in the specs but the GCV160 does not.  Do not know if all shafts generally do and it was simply left out of the specs.


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## brenndatomu (Jun 18, 2018)

The shaft will be either keyed or tapered...almost all are keyed. The key way size is a non issue...if it is a different size than what you have now then just get a different LJ coupling to fit...they are cheap.
Oh, and the 3200 RPM on that Predator is a non issue too...IMO...do you really run your splitter wide open? I don't...and I don't know anybody that does...even if you do the small stroke cycle time penalty will be unnoticeable.


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## KenLockett (Jun 19, 2018)

After much analysi and review on other forums in addition to Hearth, I am going to pick up a HF 173cc 5.5 HP Predator vertical shaft engine. Same shaft size, key, shaft length of 3 5/32 which after careful analysis is what I need and better to be a bit long than too short and these units have 8” bolt pattern. Others I have found have replaced the BS 190 on the Huskee 20 Ton using this engine with no issues and have all had positive feedback including saying seems to be higher powered and quieter. Only drawback is need to put on a throttle lever as built for remote cable and flywheel brake band which I understand can be defeated easily. Saw some Honda GX160 throttle levers for less than $10 that I understand will work on this engine. As matter of fact I understand that all the parts on this engine are replaceable with the Honda GX parts as it is a clone. For $119 I guess not that big of a risk anyhow.


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## brenndatomu (Jun 19, 2018)

Might be able to catch a sale and/or use coupons to drive that price down a bit more too. HF almost always has coupons available...check fleabay, people sell 'em for a buck or so...


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## KenLockett (Jun 19, 2018)

Unfortunately the 20% off coupons that I have found specifically exclude the predator engines.


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## Ashful (Jun 19, 2018)

brenndatomu said:


> The shaft will be either keyed or tapered...almost all are keyed. The key way size is a non issue...if it is a different size than what you have now then just get a different LJ coupling to fit...they are cheap.
> Oh, and the 3200 RPM on that Predator is a non issue too...IMO...do you really run your splitter wide open? I don't...and I don't know anybody that does...even if you do the small stroke cycle time penalty will be unnoticeable.



I run my splitter wide open 100% of the time.  I’m also the guy who put a bigger pump on my splitter, as I couldn’t deal with the 11.8 second cycle time. 

I can’t see any reason why anyone would want to run their splitter slower than its maximum speed.


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## KenLockett (Jun 19, 2018)

Agreed. With that said I always ran my BS 675 at full speed but after reading specs all over the place I am convinced that engine ran at only max of 3100 rpm. The BS 725 runs at 3200 rpm. Actually found the 725e with a bit more torque on Amazon for $170 plus free shipping but reviews are not very good. It appears that these aluminum case units are not meant for longevity although I’m sure there are exceptions. HF engines are cast iron case with low oil press shutoff, fuel shutoff, and are inexpensive. Going to at least give it a try. Ashful if at the end of the day if it all goes to chit and my engine woes persist I would consider buying your 675e at the right price if you were still interested. Just out of curiosity what engine did you upgrade to? Vertical or horizontal? And what GPM pump did you upgrade to to get that reduced cycle time?


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## Ashful (Jun 19, 2018)

KenLockett said:


> Ashful if at the end of the day if it all goes to chit and my engine woes persist I would consider buying your 675e at the right price if you were still interested. Just out of curiosity what engine did you upgrade to? Vertical or horizontal? And what GPM pump did you upgrade to to get that reduced cycle time?



I upgraded to an Intek 344cc vertical shaft, as I required at least 300 cc to drive a 16 GPM pump at the speed and pressure I was aiming to hit, and that was the only vertical shaft engine I could find above 300cc that would nicely fit onto that splitter frame.  It works great, but being a cheaply-engineered Briggs, the intake noise is intolerable.  Unfortunately, the vertical shaft Honda was too tall, where I feared it might get in the way.

My current cycle time is somewhere in the 8 second range, at a full 22 tons splitting force.  I’d have preferred to go 22 GPM, and get my cycle time down around 6 seconds, but that would have required a custom cylinder with larger ports and more modifications to the reservoir on the splitter frame.  So, for the sake of simplicity, 16 GPM / 8 seconds is where it’s at.

I kept the 675e, because I also have a pressure washer that uses the same engine.  So, I’m not really anxious to sell it, I only offered it because I thought you were in a jam, and needed an engine.  If that’s the case, I’d still let it go, but if you’ve found a better option I’ll just keep it in case the pressure washer goes kaput.


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## brenndatomu (Jun 19, 2018)

Ashful said:


> I can’t see any reason why anyone would want to run their splitter slower than its maximum speed.


Well, by the time I get back with the next round, the ram has returned and is waiting on me anyways...so any reduced cycle time will only gain me a moment since most of the time I'm only using a partial stroke anyways, unless I'm splitting Elm, then probably gonna need to go the full stroke...then I may run it wide open...but I hate all the extra noise and fuel consumption, so I run half to 3/4 throttle most of the time. I guess I'd rather take my time and enjoy the work rather than work up a big sweat and stumbling all over myself "trying to go as fast as possible"
I very seldom have help splitting, if I did have help I could see a faster cycle time being an advantage...especially if you had 2 extra people, you could really fly then! At that point I would maybe consider a kinetic splitter.


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## KenLockett (Jun 19, 2018)

Guys I picked up the 5.5 HP predator but not totally sold on it. When you consider the 6.5 HP horizontal shaft versus the 5.5 HP side by side it is amazing the apparent difference in quality and they are the same price!  The throttle and the flywheel are going to be a PAIN to defeat/modify I think. Not sure I want to rig this think as I think going to need the brake to shut it off. VERY stiff. The 6.5 HP is specifically  for an application wth throttle control only plus has electrical shutoff, fuel shutoff, and choke. Just overall higher quality and even has a nice large metal fuel reservoir. I immediately started considering how I could remount pump to horizontal shaft. I see there are threaded bolts at the horizontal shaft flange. Are there adapters for coupling if the hydraulic pump with Lovejoys to the flange mounting point. Bolt patterns between the flange and my pump at least do not matchup. If they did could simply use longer bolts for direct coupling although not sure how stable this would be. I really am not capable of easily fabricating anything. Not sure if Honda has mounting adapter. So many possible options. Have tempted to see if a small engine repair shop could simply replace the valve in my BS for $100 or less. That’s my threshold for repair or something used. Guess  I’m kind of back to the drawing board here for the moment.


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## Ashful (Jun 19, 2018)

Yes, there are adaptors for mounting your pump directly to a horizontal shaft engine.  You can pick them up fairly cheap on ebay, or northern tool.  However, getting the hose and pump arrangement right for being able to switch between horizontal and vertical without any chafing hoses is not completely trivial.


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## KenLockett (Jun 20, 2018)

Good point regarding hose arrangement when switching between horizontal and vertical. Didn’t think about that. Will have to look at that. Thanks.


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## KenLockett (Jun 20, 2018)

Found inexpensive bracket on eBay. I presume with regard to horizontal and vertical hose constraints that worse case hose length would simply need to be increased?


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## brenndatomu (Jun 20, 2018)

Just FYI, hydraulic hoses aren't the cheapest thing...


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## Ashful (Jun 20, 2018)

Yes, you can increase the length.  Figure $30 - $40 per hose in that length and size... if you manage to get it right the first time.

It will pay to find a hydraulics shop (every town of any size has one or three), to just make the lengths you need.  Take your old hose with you, so you can just say, "I want this in xx inches length".


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## brenndatomu (Jun 21, 2018)

Having the engine shop just replace that valve is looking better all the time, eh Ken?


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## KenLockett (Jun 22, 2018)

Yep. Called a shop yesterday as a matter of fact. $100 or less if just the valve but he said he would have to look at it first. Horizontal predator unit mounted with shaft on existing pump side would have but exhaust from engine right at me and bottom hose probably too short and I saw those prices.


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## KenLockett (Jun 23, 2018)

Best small engine repair shop in Bennington, VT going to replace the valve and lash it in for $60.


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## DodgyNomad (Jun 24, 2018)

KenLockett said:


> Best small engine repair shop in Bennington, VT going to replace the valve and lash it in for $60.



Well, that was easy.


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## VirginiaIron (Jun 24, 2018)

Ashful said:


> I run my splitter wide open 100% of the time.  I’m also the guy who put a bigger pump on my splitter, as I couldn’t deal with the 11.8 second cycle time.
> 
> I can’t see any reason why anyone would want to run their splitter slower than its maximum speed.
> 
> View attachment 227349


Here is a reason. The noise isn't terrible and it saves fuel. My speed docent increase but maybe a second at full speed.


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## Ashful (Jun 25, 2018)

VirginiaIron said:


> Here is a reason. The noise isn't terrible and it saves fuel. My speed docent increase but maybe a second at full speed.



A second per split is a lot, when you consider how many splits it takes to make a cord of firewood.  It’s also a lot of extra time to hold a 500 lb. round in position on the foot plate of a vertical splitter, while waiting for the ram to extend to contact the round.

I wear ear buds for the noise, and don’t burn enough gas in my splitter for that to even register as a consideration.  I’m saving $600 in heating oil for each cord of oak I put up, and you’re worried about $2 - $3 of fuel required to split it?

I will admit, there is a threshold on noise, where even with ear buds it becomes a little annoying.  However, a 22-ton splitter running a Briggs 675e is NO WHERE NEAR that threshold.


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## VirginiaIron (Jun 25, 2018)

I'm glad you enjoy your splitter



Ashful said:


> A second per split is a lot, when you consider how many splits it takes to make a cord of firewood.  It’s also a lot of extra time to hold a 500 lb. round in position on the foot plate of a vertical splitter, while waiting for the ram to extend to contact the round.
> 
> I wear ear buds for the noise, and don’t burn enough gas in my splitter for that to even register as a consideration.  I’m saving $600 in heating oil for each cord of oak I put up, and you’re worried about $2 - $3 of fuel required to split it?
> 
> I will admit, there is a threshold on noise, where even with ear buds it becomes a little annoying.  However, a 22-ton splitter running a Briggs 675e is NO WHERE NEAR that threshold.



No. I'm just saying I'm saving $603 for every cord I split and I am enjoying myself because the noise is so much less, that it REALLY makes a difference In the quality of life experience splitting the wood.


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## brenndatomu (Jun 25, 2018)

Some people like to "hurry up and get there"...some people like to enjoy the trip...I guess I'm in the latter group


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## Ashful (Jun 25, 2018)

brenndatomu said:


> Some people like to "hurry up and get there"...some people like to enjoy the trip...I guess I'm in the latter group


I got stuck behind one of your group this morning on my way to work.  We hate that group.


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## brenndatomu (Jun 25, 2018)

Ash, Ash, Ash...need to relax a lil buddy...your gonna stroke out man! 
Seriously, I dunno how you big city types do it...went through Chicago for the first time some weeks back...


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## blades (Jun 26, 2018)

Glad you made it through the War zone ( chi town) that is one ugly couple or more hours of stress.


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## Ashful (Jun 26, 2018)

The city is a great place to visit, I was there two nights ago for a show at the Academy.  But I don’t live there, I’m in the countryside a few dozen miles outside the city, within 40 - 60 minutes drive of any point within.

It would appear from this distance that Chicago has been on a pretty serious downhill slide over the last two decades.  Meanwhile, Philly has really turned around from their low point 20 - 30 years ago, and is enjoying a very nice revival.

Of course, there aren’t many log splitters there.


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## blades (Jun 26, 2018)

about the only splitting they do in ChiTown involves plastic baggies


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## KenLockett (Jul 5, 2018)

Well I got repaired splitter back on Friday. Shop said everything looked good and that the valve replacement was a breeze. Told me to make sure I put new oil in as it has to be drained to make the repair but and that he didn’t run the engine after the repair but should start on the 2nd or 3rd pull. Very nice and knowledgeable sounding fellow. So Saturday morning mounted the engine and added the 18-20 ounces of 5w-30 full synthetic oil as recommended by the manufacturer and noticed that oil was quite high on dipstick. Again not being an expert figured well with the internal work the oil has to work its way in. Tried repeatedly to start the engine with no luck. Saw quite a pit of white smoke out of the breather when first starting and assumed that was just the new valve working. Well thought about it quite a bit that night and yesterday replaced plug and decided to siphon oil out until dipstick at the high level. Siphoned 12 ounces out and it was surprisingly dark!  At that point tried to start again with no luck although thought she tried to fire a few times but not really close. At that point drained oil completely and it appears that the shop did put the old oil back in or at least 12-16 ounces!  So I overfilled the oil. Well took the breather off and cleaned that out although more wet than anything with oil/gas residue. I see no oil through spark plug hole and when I try to start I see absolutely no oil residue on spark plug although it is wet and I smell gas. I also checked gas filter and have flow and the carb float had fresh fuel in it when I drained. Have also verified clean air filter and strong spark with new plug. Even tried some starter fluid in the spark plug hole. If I hold a rag over the spark plug hole and try to start I get no mist on the rag. I have no idea at this point what is going on. Called the shop but have not heard back yet. Any ideas fellows. This engine has always been hard to start in the winter and this is reminiscent of that time but of course is 95 degrees at the moment here in the Northeast.


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## brenndatomu (Jul 5, 2018)

If you haven't done so already, drain all the oil and put in new.
Try starting it with the throttle wide open, no choke, it sounds flooded. Maybe even a new plug.
If it doesn't fire after a bit, you could try choke again for a few pulls.


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## Ashful (Jul 5, 2018)

brenndatomu said:


> If you haven't done so already, drain all the oil and put in new.
> Try starting it with the throttle wide open, no choke, it sounds flooded. Maybe even a new plug.
> If it doesn't fire after a bit, you could try choke again for a few pulls.



This, and next time a dipstick shows high, don’t try to run it, or you can do serious damage.  Consider the listed crankcase volume as a simple reference when adding oil to an engine, rather than trying to add that much oil to an engine that will almost always already have a little in the crank case (even after draining).  Add until your a little shy of max on the dipstick lines, and that’s it.  I usually start checking it when I’ve filled to about 80% of listed crankcase volume, and then add a bit at a time, stopping and checking a few times until it’s right.

Having said that, if the engine didn’t actually fire and run, I doubt you did any damage with an over-full crank case, other than a messed up breather.


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## KenLockett (Jul 5, 2018)

Yeah thanks Ash. Have learned MANY lessons throughout this entire experience. With that said any other ideas as to why it won’t fire?  Possible the repair was incorrectly done or perhaps adjustments were done incorrectly?  Still waiting to hear back from the shop.


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## maple1 (Jul 5, 2018)

If I was a shop I don't think I would send something out the door without running it a bit first.


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## fire_man (Jul 5, 2018)

I was thinking the same thing, especially since there was damage involved.


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## johneh (Jul 5, 2018)

How can you say it is fixed if you do not test it ?


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## KenLockett (Jul 6, 2018)

I agree to All above. Like a lot of things just another life lesson learned. This is one of the reasons I prefer to do things on my own whenever possible. I actually had to drive to the shop. He never returned my call. We discussed and he offered the possibility that maybe the timing is off and that the flywheel key was sheared. Of course my first thought and I didn’t say it was well why didn’t you at least try to start the engine to confirm the repair and at that point would have know whether the key was sheared. Strictly speaking I didn’t ask him to do that but if he would have simply tried to start the engine and in doing so determined that the key was sheared I would have paid him to repair that as well and confirm engine timing.  I suspect he probably tried and when it wouldn’t start didn’t go any further either because he didn’t want to mess with it or suspected I wouldn’t pay for it. I just don’t know. Either way I’ll just complete the repair myself. Now to pull a flywheel. Never done it but looking at a video looks relatively easy to confirm if key is sheared and remove flywheel to replace as needed. Any thoughts on whether is should invest in the pulling tool? Is it really necessary?  I don’t want to break anything further.  When all is said and done I’ll probably be a small engine expert. Lol.


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## blades (Jul 6, 2018)

pulling tool yes , because trying to knock loose with a mallet almost always breaks something.


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## maple1 (Jul 6, 2018)

I think the first thing I would do, if carrying on myself, is check compression to try to verify the valve replacement got done right. Him sending it out the door without firing it up to test, then what happened after, just complicates the whole thing. Also sounds to me like the oil never got drained at the shop if it was as black as it sounds. Just all around sounds like a shop not to take anything back to.

Also, not sure if this applies to these B&S engines or not, but with some small engines if you crank it over with the spark plug wire not hooked up & the plug not grounded, or the on/off switch not turned off if it has an on/off switch, you can fritz the coil. That switch is likely incorporated into the throttle linkage - when your turn throttle all the way down it kills the fire.

If you have compression how you should have it, and have spark - then I would check the key.


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## Ashful (Jul 6, 2018)

Folks, let’s not lose sight of how we got here.  Put otherwise, I don’t see how installing the wrong spark plug would cause a sheared flywheel key.

A damaged valve is very likely to have damaged the valve seat, leading to a compression problem.  I’d be doing a compression test, before chasing any possible new problems.


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## maple1 (Jul 6, 2018)

I'm doubtful of a key problem also - but you never know. If the engine had come to a sudden stop at some point, maybe. But I don't recall it did.

The needless extra chain of events that arose out of sending it out the door without firing it up first still boggles me a bit...


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## Ashful (Jul 6, 2018)

I suspect they did try to fire it up, and just fed him some BS when saying they didn’t.  They put oil in the crank case and tried to run it, but it wouldn’t start.  Rather than digging into why, they figured they’d done the job they were hired to do (replacing the valve), and sent it on its way.

If they dig in and find other problems, they have a customer confrontation on their hands before being paid.  This way, the customer pays first, confrontation later.


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## rox3406 (Jul 6, 2018)

You don’t have to pull the flywheel to check the key. Just remove the flywheel nut and washer and look at the end of the keyway. It the slot on the crank lines up with the slot in the flywheel they key is intact. On a different note if it came back with the old oil still in it then all they did was slam a new valve in it and didn’t do the lash. You have to split the case to do it. Old oil no case split. Compression test should show if the valve is hanging open do to improper lash.


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## KenLockett (Jul 6, 2018)

Okay guys did compression test with my thumb over plug hole. I feel a bit of pressure but with hard crank not even enough to push my thumb off. Is this enough to confirm the compression is not there and no need to even take off the flywheel cover even at this point?


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## KenLockett (Jul 6, 2018)

So just to be clear, I was told he lashed the valve (using lashing compound) and that it went in cleanly and that he had to file it a bit as he was inclined to explain to me how it is done. He also said everything else looked fine including the valve seat. Furthermore he said that compression was checked and was good. The more I think about it the more I’m thinking I was hood winked and starting to get really pissed off. When I went in last night to talk to him I asked him point blank if he did the repair or if his helper did. He said a bit of both then proceeded to tell me his helper didn’t come in Monday and hasn’t been in since. So you guys think my thumb test is sufficient to prove compression is not there?  If so I am going to take the engine back in and give him to chance to make it right or simply just give me my money back. Bennington is a small town. If he chooses to do business this way I will make a point of letting everyone in town know and/or will report his practices to the Better Business Bureau. Amount probably not enough to take to small claims court. So disappointed as he seems like an honest person. I of course try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. Guess I’ll see what kind of person he truly is.


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## KenLockett (Jul 6, 2018)

Oh yeah and one more thing. He told me he only had to take the head off and the breather to access the cover required to get to the valves for replacement. Is this what you mean by splitting the head??


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## johneh (Jul 6, 2018)

You got it no compression no start 
I think your so called mechanic took you for a ride 
When I was in the trade your engine would have got a complete diagnoses 
A repair estimate then with your OK an overhaul including a test run and set up 
Have I been out of the trade so long that this is not done ?


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## KenLockett (Jul 6, 2018)

He told me that they had to drain the oil to do the repair. He also told me that it was empty when I picked it up. I think the helper did the repair (maybe not correctly) and the owner was simply told things were done. Again will see.


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## KenLockett (Jul 6, 2018)

He told me that they had to drain the oil to do the repair. He also told me that it was empty when I picked it up. I think the helper did the repair (maybe not correctly) and the owner was simply told things were done. Again will see.


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## brenndatomu (Jul 6, 2018)

Chances are the compression is low...but the thumb test is unreliable at best. Go to one of the national auto parts store chains, they will loan you a compression tester...well, "sell" you one that you can use and then bring back if you want...they are not that much money either.
I don't know what the compression specs are on this engine, but some are low enough (normally) at cranking speeds that a person with strong hands could hold normal compression...I have been able to do it before on an engine that ran.


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## KenLockett (Jul 6, 2018)

The mechanic is the guy who told me to do the thumb test and said the compression should definitely push my thumb away at around expected 60 Psi of pressure. And the plot thickens.


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## brenndatomu (Jul 6, 2018)

60 PSI is easily held by hand...I've done it on 90.
If he is saying that 60 PSI is the spec, then this engine must have an auto compression release...which kinda surprises me on an engine this small.
No engine will fire on actual 60 psi...many will fire on 90, but start kinda hard...100 will start easier...120 will start easily on most engines...this is actual cranking compression, not auto compression release #s.


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## rox3406 (Jul 6, 2018)

Bring it back give him a chance to make it right. Just my 2cents.


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## maple1 (Jul 6, 2018)

This has gone on way longer than it should have. You need to check compression. With a gauge. Get real numbers. 

No you don't have to drain the oil to take the head off and the access cover. And no that is not splitting the case. That would lose the oil. If you're having trouble figuring this out there are likely all kinds more YouTube vids out there.


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## Ashful (Jul 7, 2018)

rox3406 said:


> Bring it back give him a chance to make it right. Just my 2cents.



This. 

If I didn’t own a compression tester myself already, I wouldn’t bother.  Take it back and get him to start his repaired engine.  It’s that simple.  If repaired correctly, he should be able to start it.  Period.

From everything you’re saying, it sounds like you may be dealing with an honest business owner with a bad employee.  At least give him one chance to make it right.


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## brenndatomu (Jul 7, 2018)

Ashful said:


> If repaired correctly, he should be able to start it. Period.


Yup, just as simple as that...


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## KenLockett (Jul 7, 2018)

Thanks for all the advice guys. Just got back from Advanced Auto and picked up a compression tester. Just for my peace of mind and as a matter of fact before I go back in going to check the compression.


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## Highbeam (Jul 7, 2018)

To use it, full throttle and keep pulling to max out the reading.


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## brenndatomu (Jul 7, 2018)

Highbeam said:


> To use it, full throttle and keep pulling to max out the reading.


Good point...would need to have the throttle wide open for that finger test too...


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## maple1 (Jul 7, 2018)

With ignition turned off or plug grounded.

I've never cooked a coil myself but have always been warned about it.


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## KenLockett (Jul 8, 2018)

10 lbs of pressure. Off to the repair shop


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## maple1 (Jul 8, 2018)

10? Holy moly.


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## Ashful (Jul 8, 2018)

KenLockett said:


> 10 lbs of pressure. Off to the repair shop


Let's just make sure you understand your terms, since you used them incorrectly the other day, before you go back to the shop.

Valve lash refers to the amount of play in a lifter, when the valve is closed / released.  It's typically something on the order of .005", and is set by adjusting the length of a lifter with a screw, or in the case of this oddball engine we're told it's adjusted by grinding or filing the lifter.  If the lash is tight, this mechanic could have gotten there by filing the end of the valve stem, and while I haven't done a top end on one of these engines, I can't say I see any problem with that.

Valve lapping is the act of matching a valve to it's valve seat.  Typically, valve seats are pressed-in replaceable rings, pressed into the casting of the engine block.  When you change valves or seats, you need to lap one to the other to make them match perfectly.  This is typically achieved with a little grinding paste ("lapping compound") and a special tool (suction cup on the end of a dowel) that you use to spin the valve against the seat.


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## KenLockett (Jul 8, 2018)

Thanks Ash. Good to know. So dropped by the shop and no one there. So called a while ago and he answered I I mentioned that the thumb test was no good and to confirm I bought compression gauge and found 5-10 psi so compression was bad. Said it should be 90-120 psi. He goes where did you get that number, those engines have decompression valve and what you are reading should be fine. Says not sure why you even wasted your money on a gauge. Says your finger test is all you need and the compression will blow your finger away. Was thinking to myself well 5-10 psi is not going to force your finger or thumb off port. Proceeded to tell him even with decompression valve should see 50-60 psi. I watched like five you tube videos all showing and stating everything you guys are saying. I am trying to be polite and non contentious but seriously I am beginning to feel like I’m in lala land here. Geez. I suggested maybe his now absent employee maybe screwed up and told him the compression was good but he insisted he checked it. I finally just said the look I’m bringing the engine back in and you need to look at it again and make it right. I even just did same compression test on my mower BS and getting 90 psi.  Extremely wary right now but don’t know what else I can do. I learned my lesson. This time I will make him show me compression and confirm engine runs like I should have done before making payment. He just seemed so nice and l
Knowledgeable and the sign on his shop desk indicates he was small engine repair shop of the year for Bennington and Manchester counties for 2016. Hell I even talked with him for over two hours between when I dropped it off and picked it off. My faith in humanity is not at a high point at the moment.


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## brenndatomu (Jul 8, 2018)

KenLockett said:


> I finally just said the look I’m bringing the engine back in and you need to look at it again and make it right.


There ya go...just tell him to make it run while you are there to see it and you'll go away.

Sounds like what somebody suggested earlier...a good shop owner with a bonehead employee...there are lots of those to go around these days...especially at the rates small engine shops can afford to pay.
Every time I go into the local shop, the owner asks if I'm interested in wrenching for him...part time, full time, whatever. Ah, nope, I'm fine...


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## maple1 (Jul 9, 2018)

brenndatomu said:


> *There ya go...just tell him to make it run while you are there to see it and you'll go away.*



Yup, that ^.

Simple.

Then if he can't get it going - well, curious what he has to say or what he does then. Thinking it would be some kind of way to try and throw blame back on Ken. This has been quite the circus story.


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## DodgyNomad (Jul 9, 2018)

KenLockett said:


> Thanks Ash. Good to know. So dropped by the shop and no one there. So called a while ago and he answered I I mentioned that the thumb test was no good and to confirm I bought compression gauge and found 5-10 psi so compression was bad. Said it should be 90-120 psi. He goes where did you get that number, those engines have decompression valve and what you are reading should be fine. Says not sure why you even wasted your money on a gauge. Says your finger test is all you need and the compression will blow your finger away. Was thinking to myself well 5-10 psi is not going to force your finger or thumb off port. Proceeded to tell him even with decompression valve should see 50-60 psi. I watched like five you tube videos all showing and stating everything you guys are saying. I am trying to be polite and non contentious but seriously I am beginning to feel like I’m in lala land here. Geez. I suggested maybe his now absent employee maybe screwed up and told him the compression was good but he insisted he checked it. I finally just said the look I’m bringing the engine back in and you need to look at it again and make it right. I even just did same compression test on my mower BS and getting 90 psi.  Extremely wary right now but don’t know what else I can do. I learned my lesson. This time I will make him show me compression and confirm engine runs like I should have done before making payment. He just seemed so nice and l
> Knowledgeable and the sign on his shop desk indicates he was small engine repair shop of the year for Bennington and Manchester counties for 2016. Hell I even talked with him for over two hours between when I dropped it off and picked it off. My faith in humanity is not at a high point at the moment.



10 is too low, that much is certain.   Depending on the model and year, compression on these motors does vary greatly.  I have seen many older motors that test in the 50-60 range and run fine.  But I have motors that also put out 140 psi, so it can be confusing unless you know the acceptable operating specs.    

Briggs used to suggest for it's techs that when possible, rotate the engine backwards against compression, and as your turning it and resistance builds up, let go of the flywheel, or crank, etc, and the motor should turn back the other way on it's own.  Easy test, and when you get a feel for it, you look for a nice hard push back.  That's how briggs used to train there techs to do a quick test for compression.  

When you've done it on a few engines, you can quickly gauge the compression by how much resistance and push back you get when doing it.  

A traditional compression tester is kind of confusing to people because the acceptable numbers vary from engine to engine and from year to year so much.  But turning the motor over backwards against the compression stroke when possible gives you a better indicator than the thumb test.  

Good luck with it.


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## KenLockett (Jul 12, 2018)

Took the engine back to the shop today. He is going to do a leak test with 100 Psig of compressed air. He agrees on the 90psig compression requirement now amazingly. Think I know how this is probably going to go but not much I can do at this point. Will ultimately be his word against mine. Hoping he does the right thing.


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## maple1 (Jul 12, 2018)

He's going to do what?!?!


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## brenndatomu (Jul 12, 2018)

maple1 said:


> He's going to do what?!?!


Its called a "leakdown test"
You hook up a special gauge to the engine using a hose like a compression tester uses...it allows you to hook up the hose from your air compressor and will show the % of overall leakage. You can then tell by where you here air leaking from, where the problem is...air hissing from oil fill hole (crankcase) bad piston/rings and/or cylinder...hissing from muffler, leaking exhaust valve. From the carb, leaking intake valve.


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## maple1 (Jul 12, 2018)

Let me back up a bit. A leak test is Ok. And using 100psi might be ok. As long as he knows what he's doing. Which I'm not sure he does by the sounds of things so far. Hate to see your carb get blown apart or something silly if he doesn't. I'd start with way less pressure. But that might just be me.


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## KenLockett (Jul 13, 2018)

brenndatomu said:


> Its called a "leakdown test"
> You hook up a special gauge to the engine using a hose like a compression tester uses...it allows you to hook up the hose from your air compressor and will show the % of overall leakage. You can then tell by where you here air leaking from, where the problem is...air hissing from oil fill hole (crankcase) bad piston/rings and/or cylinder...hissing from muffler, leaking exhaust valve. From the carb, leaking intake valve.


Yep that’s exactly how he explained it.


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## Highbeam (Jul 14, 2018)

So long as he gets the dang thing running you probably don’t need to know too much about how or why.


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## KenLockett (Jul 14, 2018)

Yep that’s about it.


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## KenLockett (Jul 19, 2018)

Well I picked up the engine today and it runs!  He just took it back apart and relashed the valve then new head gasket. Didn’t even do the leakdown test. Restored my faith. He even put a Ngk plug instead of the champion as he doesn’t like them (it was new by the way) and filled the gas tank. Said he stands behind the work he does and even offered to start and run it for me when I got there. Only thing different is it seems to run at higher RPM than before. Not sure if throttle linkage got tweaked when carb was take. Off them put back on. I just ran the throttle at lower setting. Could just be my imagination as I haven’t ran it in awhile. Thanks for your input and help guys. Don’t think I’ll be putting in the wrong spark plug in the future.


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## fire_man (Jul 19, 2018)

Glad it worked out! 

Don't feel bad - a buddy at work was changing the plugs on both his cars at the same time. Guess which plugs he installed first - yup the too long plugs in the wrong car. He did major damage and had a much more expensive lesson than your log splitter story.


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## KenLockett (Jul 19, 2018)

Well I picked up the engine today and it runs!  He just took it back apart and relashed the valve then new head gasket. Didn’t even do the leakdown test. Restored my faith. He even put a Ngk plug instead of the champion as he doesn’t like them (it was new by the way) and filled the gas tank. Said he stands behind the work he does and even offered to start and run it for me when I got there. Only thing different is it seems to run at higher RPM than before. Not sure if throttle linkage got tweaked when carb was take. Off them put back on. I just ran the throttle at lower setting. Could just be my imagination as I haven’t ran it in awhile. Thanks for your input and help guys.


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## Ashful (Jul 19, 2018)

Awesome.  On RPM adjustment, find a buddy with a laser tach or timing light with tach reading.  Google your engine model number for max RPM spec and adjustment.  No big deal.


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## DodgyNomad (Jul 20, 2018)

I'd be curious what the compression is now that it's up and running, just for reference, and a baseline.


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## spudman99 (Jul 20, 2018)

Glad to hear its all back and running.  Certainly took extra time and effort on your part, but thanks to your updates we all are a little wiser given the various replies about what might be wrong.  And thanks to the search function, others in the future will benefit from your persistence and patience.


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## Highbeam (Jul 20, 2018)

My Huskee 22 splitter with the vertical shaft engine doesn't even have a throttle control. You "choke" it to start by pumping in extra fuel with a bulb.

More rpm, as long as the engine can handle it, should mean faster cycle time right?


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## KenLockett (Jul 20, 2018)

Yeah mine has no choke but It does have a throttle and in min position the ignition coil is shorted to stop engine. From my observation yes if the engine is operating at less than rated RPM the cycle time is slower and increases as engine speed increases.


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## Highbeam (Jul 20, 2018)

KenLockett said:


> Yeah mine has no choke but It does have a throttle and in min position the ignition coil is shorted to stop engine. From my observation yes if the engine is operating at less than rated RPM the cycle time is slower and increases as engine speed increases.



Whoa! I was wrong. Just checked and I can slow the rpm but always run at max to keep the hydraulics juiced.


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