# Newbie with Harmon PB105 questions



## taperk600 (Nov 8, 2008)

Just had my PB105 installed on Tuesday. I'm having a few issues and have a few questions that I'm hoping some of you on here can answer.
A couple easy ones (I hope) first:
.... is it normal to have A LOT of smoke at start up ?? I mean so much that other's near the house actually think it's on fire ? Yes, seriously...they think it's burning !
.... is there any way to adjust the air flowing into the boiler and quiet the whistle ??? Or is it just part of the package ??
.... is everyone's combo gauge WAY off ? Mine reads 145/150 while the max temp is set at 180 (OB does read 180/190 most of the time)
.... dip switches..my first 4 are all down (off) and the 5th is up (on). I can see the 4th & 5th behind the panel. What do these do ? Heard the first 2 control feed at start up. Could changing these help with my smoking problem?

Now for some installation/use questions:
.... installers plumbed mine in parallel but installed valves on the OB return and supply lines and told me to keep them shut. This is not what I expected as I thought they were supposed to run together with the PB being primary and the OB being secondary. Not the "either/or" set up they told me. I have read the owner's manual a bunch of times (what a worthless pile of papers that is) and so far have opened the valve on the OB return fully and opened the OB supply about 1/3. This has seemed to allow for some circulation from the PB into the OB and has (so far ) stopped the OB from firing at all unless I have a high demand for DHW (coil still in OB). I'm guessing that this satisfies the "balancing valves" that the owner's manual shows. No valve was installed on the supply off the PB. Should I put one in?
.... installers also put a circulator in line between the tow boilers. I was told it has the check valve removed and is only activated IF the PB overheats and acts as a heat dump. Well, if I was to keep the valves on the OB closed, where does this overheated water go ? I don't believe they connected anything electrical to my zone controls, so wouldn't everything be closed off ? Guess I'm just lost on this one.
.... How do you set the PB to run in what I've read/heard is called a "low idle" where it stays lit instead of going through the whole start up/ delay/ shut down, etc process? When is it recommend to run in this manner? Or isn't it recommended? Does running this way speed up recovery ? Help the PB run more efficiently ? Run cleaner ? Pros/Cons to either way ?
.... installers did not install the outside air sensor. I was not even aware of it until I read the manual. Is this something worth installing? If it isn't used, am I reading the manual correctly in the fact that the min temp setting does nothing but act as the on/of switch and the temp in the boiler runs solely off the max temp control setting +/- 5 degrees ?
.... feed control. Set at 4. Seems to run ok, but don't know if I'd know if it wasn't. How do you tell ? When do you know if you need a faster or slower feed rate ? I know it's probably a no-brainer for some, but this is all new to me.....

Guess that's enough for now. Any replies are appreciated and look forward to any advise given !!
Tom


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## AndrewChurchill (Nov 8, 2008)

Your installation certainly sounds suspect.  My set up is also in parallel, but I don't need to open and close anything.  If the PB goes out the OB instantly kicks in.  

I am using the outdoor air sensor and it will definitely save you fuel,

The manual ignite mode is covered in the owners manual starting on page 26.


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## taperk600 (Nov 8, 2008)

Ok, thanks Andrew.
I skipped that section since my igniter is operational and didn't realize that setting to manual was how to get to this "low idle" mode. Do you know if this is more or less efficient ? Is there a time that it's better to run in this manner ? 
Thanks, 
Tom


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## AndrewChurchill (Nov 8, 2008)

I plan on doing some testing when winter really comes.  I suspect that the auto light feature will be more efficient but that the manual mode will be more responsive to heating demands.


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## stephenmoore (Nov 9, 2008)

My response is about the whistling. I think this is a feature of the "air wash" system for keeping your glass a little cleaner and easier to clean. (Draws room air in through a small gap between window and gasket)I'm going to try the manual setting on mine when the weather gets colder. I have heard a few people tell me it makes very litle diff in amount of pellets burned, and a lot in the response time. Let me know how you fare with igniters, that's my pet peeve.


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## AndrewChurchill (Nov 9, 2008)

Steve, I'm assuming the response time will be much faster running in the manual mode.  Also it would help to alleviate the dreaded 5 blink syndrome!

I'm definitely going to try it once winter sets in and I get a good feeling about my average pellet usage.


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## Wayne64SS (Nov 10, 2008)

As a note to everyone here, his installer is, unfortunately, the same "professional" as my installer. I should've just done it myself. Hey Tom is it just me or did they not even check / set the draft on yours either?? I'm wondering if this is why I'm burning almost a bag a day with NO calls for heat. Thats right my thermostat is OFF and even better is the fact that my oiler isn't being brought up to temp by the PB. 

To answer some of your questions - I was in the kitchen the other day and happened to look out the window and saw a TON of smoke coming out of the vent, to the point I ran down to the basement to make sure the thing wasn't on fire. Rediculous.

They also told me the outside air temp wasn't needed.... but I will be switching to manual mode when I get home and I'll let you know how / if that works out. 

Yes my combo guage(i don't know if i'd call it that - my weatherman is more accurate) is also a piece of chit. They promised to bring another one.

I don't understand how it is supposed to heat my OB if there is no circ running anywhere.... any ideas guys?


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## AndrewChurchill (Nov 10, 2008)

Wayne, if I remember correctly you are running your boilers in series which means your pellet boiler is keeping the water hot in the oil boiler as well as the pellet boiler, that could explain your using 1 bag a day.

In the summer when I left my PB running all day to heat the hot water it would use 1/2 a bag per day just to keep the boiler temp up so in your case I don't think 1 bag per day keeping two boilers warm is out of line.

Currently I'm using a hair over 1 bag per day to heat my house and hot water.


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## Wayne64SS (Nov 10, 2008)

i'm in parallel.... supposed to be. but the valves for the OB are closed as per my "installer / professional"


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## AndrewChurchill (Nov 10, 2008)

I don't understand why your installer is telling you to close the valves to the OB if you are truly set up in parallel.  One of the main reasons for going parallel is to have an automatic back up in case your PB stops working for some reason.

I know with the Harman I would definitely want a back up in case it decides to not auto ignite for some reason when I'm not home.  I'd hate to come home to frozen pipes after a long day at work.


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## Wayne64SS (Nov 10, 2008)

I don't get it either... I don't think he paid attention in class. The PB needs a circ running inbetween the two to heat them both right? And if that is the case then how does the circ not push through the rest of the system? Zone control valve?


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## AndrewChurchill (Nov 10, 2008)

I'm not a plumber but I think a series set up only uses one circulator to push the water through both boilers.

In a parallel set up there is a circulator for each boiler and check valves so water doesn't back flow through the pipes.  The check valves prevent one boiler from heating the other.

If you take a look at the pictures of my set up you will see the circulators and check valves for each boiler and where they are placed.


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## Wayne64SS (Nov 10, 2008)

ohhhh maybe i'm misunderstanding the term "parallel". I thought it meant that the PB or Main boiler would bring the other up to temp if there was no call for heat... When a call for heat came it would pull the main boiler down first and if the main boiler can't recover the secondary or OB would come on and take over.


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## AndrewChurchill (Nov 10, 2008)

Wayne,

Here's a link to a post that describes in parallel vs. in series.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/25960/


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## Wayne64SS (Nov 10, 2008)

any other links with a good explanation of how each way is supposed to work? I seem to have a mental block for this and i need to start at the basics and read everything. its pissing me off. IN a parallel installation do both boilers run to stay up to temp or does one heat the other? 

holy chit... i think i get it.... here is the thing i wasn't getting... it doesn't appear that the secondary boiler would stay up to temp in a parallel design(without running)... also in a parallel design you need 2 circs, one for each boiler, one being the main and the other being the backup. So one would not and could not heat the other. If the backup or OB needs to stay at 180 like the main or PB, then it would have to fire to stay at temp. Likewise both circs should have checks in them to prevent flow when they are not on... I picked all this up here: http://www.nofossil.org/background.html

Now that leads to a question... if my OB doesn't stay at temp and only runs if the PB fails it would have to heat from say 50 - 60 f up to 180f. Is it better to let it fire to stay at 180 all the time or is it better to not have it run untill its needed? 

WOW.


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## taperk600 (Nov 10, 2008)

Wayne64SS said:
			
		

> As a note to everyone here, his installer is, unfortunately, the same "professional" as my installer. I should've just done it myself. Hey Tom is it just me or did they not even check / set the draft on yours either?? I'm wondering if this is why I'm burning almost a bag a day with NO calls for heat. Thats right my thermostat is OFF and even better is the fact that my oiler isn't being brought up to temp by the PB.
> 
> To answer some of your questions - I was in the kitchen the other day and happened to look out the window and saw a TON of smoke coming out of the vent, to the point I ran down to the basement to make sure the thing wasn't on fire. Rediculous.
> 
> ...



Wayne, you are correct...didn't check any draft on any part of the system. And I just found my warranty papers that need to be sent in within 10 days of purchase (long past) and there is place for that information on that sheet. I should have done mine myself also, just didn't have the time to do the research and was "happy" to have it installed by people who I was told by selling dealer "have gone to the Harmon school and know how Harmon wants it set up".....yeah...right.... I agree... they were sleeping.
At least they mentioned the outside air temp sensor to you...I never heard anything about it. I found out about it when I read the POS manual. 

So yours smokes to high he** too at restart huh ?? Didn't you say that some your DIP switches were on and some were off ? Wondering if adjusting them would make a difference or if it's just the nature of the beast ?  Combo gauge is a joke too. Mine reads about 145 and my high temp is set at 180. On a good note, I've only burned about 4 bags in the 7 days it's been running....but still having the OB come on for DHW and lastnight, it (OB) actually kicked on during a draw for heat too. Took PB about 15 mins BEFORE it even started it's restart cycle (????) and by then the draw for heat was over.....that didn't make me a happy camper for sure 

Also, has anyone else noticed the water moving much slower through their baseboards? I used to be able to hear mine if I really listened, but now I don't and I'm wondering if the "over heat" circulator they installed is restricting the flow ? The heat just doesn't "seem" the same out of them...if you can understand what I'm trying to say...


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## AndrewChurchill (Nov 10, 2008)

Wayne,

In a parallel set up the secondary boiler is NOT running (Provided the back up boiler is a cold start boiler) and the only time it comes on is if the primary boiler stops functioning or can't keep up with the heating demand.

In a series set up the two boilers are hooked together and share a common circulator and heated water is circulated through both boilers.  My guess is that since your installer is suggesting you turn some valves off to the OB you have an in series set up and the reason they are asking you to turn off the valves is so you don't end up heating both boilers.

To answer your OB question.  If your OB is a newer cold start design then it does not need to maintain a minimum temperature.  If it's an older boiler that needs to maintain a minimum boiler temp to prevent it from leaking or condensing then yes it will need to be turned on in a parallel set up.


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## Wayne64SS (Nov 10, 2008)

Tom,

only reason they said anything about the temp sensor was cause i mentioned it... I've been known to do a little research here and there 

last night i got pissed off at the amount of pellets im using and put the first two dips back to off (dunno if it will help or not lol). The installers set them to on. 3 and 4 are both off as well.

my OB always fires when there is a call for heat. it pulls the oiler down at least 20 degrees long before it begins to pull the PB down. I really think its the way its plumbed... this happens with the OB being CLOSED off from the system.

I think as long as the check is out of that circ you'll be ok.... but its also installed in the wrong place from what i read. When they come back I'm going to have them move it to the return side of the PB and have them rewire everything so the PB circ only runs during a call for heat unless the PB fails in which case it would switch over to the OB and OB circ. I'm pretty sure we should start doing this for ourselves Tom, we've already got a business plan. I know they've done at least 6 more besides ours, and those poor people don't seem to have the resource of the internets.... so we can make them our first customers


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## Wayne64SS (Nov 10, 2008)

Andrew Churchill said:
			
		

> Wayne,
> 
> In a parallel set up the secondary boiler is NOT running (Provided the back up boiler is a cold start boiler) and the only time it comes on is if the primary boiler stops functioning or can't keep up with the heating demand.
> 
> ...



yea my OB is ancient... seriously considering throwing the PB in the trash and just upgrading the OB. Unfortunately none of this is the PBs fault. Goes to show you how much of a difference a good installer can make.

In my scenario the OB would have to fire and stay at temp cause its so old... i could probably keep the max temp lower ... say 160 with a min of 120... and prevent losses if i installed a circ with an integral check. I have an older style taco 007 before they started putting checks in em.


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## Wayne64SS (Nov 10, 2008)

excuse my post-whoring.... 

I just had a stroke of genious.... i think...

check it out: i could make a primary loop out of the two boiler... in which case the PB has its own circ to circ through both itself and the OB keeping the OB at temp... then on the heating zone it would have another circ with maybe a zone control, ... that way the PBs circ could run and keep both boilers at temp and not circ through the zone.... then when a call for heat came the zone would open, zone circ on, heat is awesome. only problem i can see with this is maybe pulling temp down in both boilers too quick and causing OB to fire... i dunno how fast the Pb can recover and get back to temp... or maybe with the use of an aquastat i can tell the OB not to fire unless temp drops below 100 or something.... chit i'm a genious.


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## taperk600 (Nov 10, 2008)

Well, this whole thing is pissing me off too, but I'm not going to throw the PB out.....just might drive to J-town and complain A LOT about the poor install.....

Anyway, since I'm home today, I went down stairs and FINALLY took a couple pics of how the install was done on mine


aaahh...... I guess this forum doesn't auto size uploads, so I'll reduce the files and try again later....


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## Wayne64SS (Nov 10, 2008)

have you paid for yours yet? They have my deposit for the boiler, but I'm not paying in full till it does what it was promised to do.


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## lecomte38 (Nov 10, 2008)

DQOTD - Do the pellet boilers have a variable feed rate like my pellet stove?  I had envisioned the circulator constantly running with the temp of the water flowing thru the radiators varying with the demand.  I think it would take a special thermostat to accomplish this.


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## wil lanfear (Nov 10, 2008)

I have my PB 105 piped in parallel (supply to supply, return to return) with my oil boiler with a circulator installed in the return piping to circulate water from the PB to the OB. This circulator running is controlled by an aquastat installed in the OB, no need to circulate water when water in the OB reaches the aquastat setting. I'm not a heating engineer, but it makes sense to me, if your returning water from a zone to the OB, sending hot water from the OB to supply the zone for heat when needed, a circulator has to be installed to circulate water between the boilers, this is what I did with the PB, the same way I piped it when I had the wood boiler. Using a circulator between the boilers also allows for use of the coil in the OB for the DHW usage if you choose.


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## Wayne64SS (Nov 10, 2008)

yea i'm good with that,, but what prevents the water from traveling through the zone instead of just circulating through the two boilers.


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## wil lanfear (Nov 10, 2008)

Wayne64SS said:
			
		

> yea i'm good with that,, but what prevents the water from traveling through the zone instead of just circulating through the two boilers.


. The flo-check on each heat zone prevents the hot water that is circulated between the PB and OB from traveling to each zone. A call for heat on a given zone starts the circulator for the zone, thus the flo-check for that zone opens , hot water flows to supply the heat demand, heat demand meant, circulator shuts off, flo-check closes.


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## taperk600 (Nov 10, 2008)

Wayne64SS said:
			
		

> have you paid for yours yet? They have my deposit for the boiler, but I'm not paying in full till it does what it was promised to do.



Yes...paid in full 2 days prior to the install. I thought it had to be paid before they installed it...but never actually asked...


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## taperk600 (Nov 10, 2008)

Does anyone know if a circ can be wired up to be activated by 2 different sources ? Here's what I'm thinking...the way that mine was installed, I have the circ that they put in for overheat issue that is between the 2 return lines. If I could have that turn on when the PB runs to circ hot water between the 2, maybe based on an aqua stat on the OB, then both boilers would be kept hot by the PB. But I'm still going to need it able to be used as the over heat circ too, hence the reason for needing 2 different input sources.

Just a thought on how the correct this with the least amount of changes....


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## Wayne64SS (Nov 10, 2008)

I would think it's no problem.. the circ itself isn't what would matter its just how you wire it


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## taperk600 (Nov 10, 2008)

Ok, here's the pics now that I reduced them to less than 1/2 size:


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## taperk600 (Nov 10, 2008)

Guess I need to get used to how this forum works....here's a couple more


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## Wayne64SS (Nov 10, 2008)

yea, that guage is the same way on mine! junk! I wonder if it isn't supposed to have teflon or something on it...


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## taperk600 (Nov 10, 2008)

The smaller circ is the one that operates when the zones call for heat. The larger 3 speed on the return to the PB is the one I'm thinking could be used to circ between the 2 boilers


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## taperk600 (Nov 10, 2008)

<deleted>


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## Wayne64SS (Nov 10, 2008)

sure there is... its on the bottom left of your post. right next to the quote button.


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## wil lanfear (Nov 10, 2008)

taperk600 said:
			
		

> Does anyone know if a circ can be wired up to be activated by 2 different sources ? Here's what I'm thinking...the way that mine was installed, I have the circ that they put in for overheat issue that is between the 2 return lines. If I could have that turn on when the PB runs to circ hot water between the 2, maybe based on an aqua stat on the OB, then both boilers would be kept hot by the PB. But I'm still going to need it able to be used as the over heat circ too, hence the reason for needing 2 different input sources.
> 
> Just a thought on how the correct this with the least amount of changes....


 The overheat circulator,I'm a little confused, the way your boiler is piped with a circulator in the return between both boilers, what controls this circulator running and when it does run, where is the water circulated to and from?? I've piped a few wood boilers with a overheat zone located in the basement using a seperate circulator and flo-check with a aquastat that controlled the running. The aquastat set to 200 degrees would start this circulator to take care of an overheat situation in the wood boiler ~ oil boiler. Is this the purpose of your overheat circulator??


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## Wayne64SS (Nov 10, 2008)

it's basically a BS attempt at an overheat zone. It just pumps the heat through the regular zone, they didn't even check my existing circ for a check to make sure it would work. If it had a check then it would not work correct? They are calling it an overheat zone, but its not a seperate zone in any way, shape, or form. It's simply another circ on the existing zone. It's a shame there was no test at the end of this so called "class".


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## wil lanfear (Nov 11, 2008)

Wayne64SS said:
			
		

> it's basically a BS attempt at an overheat zone. It just pumps the heat through the regular zone, they didn't even check my existing circ for a check to make sure it would work. If it had a check then it would not work correct? They are calling it an overheat zone, but its not a seperate zone in any way, shape, or form. It's simply another circ on the existing zone. It's a shame there was no test at the end of this so called "class".


 If the existing circulator has a check it will not work as intended. I have the circulator installed in the return line at the PB, this circulates the water from the bottom of the oil boiler through the pellet boiler, back to the supply (top) of the oil boiler. This circulator will run until the aquastat that is located in the oil boiler is satisfied. IMO, if you require an overheat zone, another circulator and a aquastat will be needed to start and stop this circulator in a overheat situation. The way that the installer installed the overheat circulator, I don't see how your going to get a flow between the two boilers.


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## Wayne64SS (Nov 11, 2008)

you won't and thats our point. i have no flow between boilers.


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## wil lanfear (Nov 11, 2008)

Wayne64SS said:
			
		

> you won't and thats our point. i have no flow between boilers.


Is it possible to get the installer back to install it so as it will circulate the water between both boilers as it should, without any additional costs to you? After reading some of the posts here, I would have to question *what classes by installers* were attended. ???


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## taperk600 (Nov 11, 2008)

They put this circ in line between the 2 boiler returns. Said the check was removed and that it would only come on if the PB signals an overheat from the control unit. I posted already (possibly in another topic) that I didn't understand how this was going to circulate any water as (when they left the house) the OB was completely isolated with the shut off valves and my zones are both valved. Nothing was hooked up the zones, so IF an overheat occurred, this circ would turn on and push water no where. That's why I'm thinking of making it work off an a-stat and circ water between the 2.At least that way it serves some purpose other that just being there......... I'm really hating the fact that I paid these guys good money to do this. Should have made the time to do the research and done it myself. Lesson learned for sure !!


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## taperk600 (Nov 11, 2008)

Wayne64SS said:
			
		

> sure there is... its on the bottom left of your post. right next to the quote button.



Thanks....I'll get used to it someday....not like the snowmobile forums I'm used to that's for sure.....


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## Wayne64SS (Nov 11, 2008)

lol yea its different, but get used to it .. from the way this sounds we'll be here more than anywhere else this winter lol.

Wil I am waiting for a call back from these guys. They are going to make it work it my way at no charge to me, they might just not know it yet. We both paid ALOT of cash to have these installed and all through this process we were told that it wouldn't effect the way the oil boiler works etc. I realize the flue is kind of expensive, but it isn't gold plated, and as such i know i have less than $1000 in parts here not counting the boiler. I ask where the other $1200 went for an install that is half-ass at best?? I will definitely keep everyone in the loop as to what happens this week when I speak with them.


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## Richardin52 (Nov 11, 2008)

I wanted to comment of the whistle you are hearing.  

First I have a Pinnacle PB 150 not the same boiler you have but when you mentioned a whistle my boiler also had one when they first started it up.  The guy I bought my boiler from at evergreen heat does not install but he knows a lot and is always present when his boilers are started.  Mine had a whistle and he said it was common to have one if the flue had a leak.  This was the first install for the boiler guy so he didn't know anything about how the boiler was supposed to run.  Anyway the guy from evergreen caulked around the clean out cover on the chimney and put a little chalk around a couple other joints and it has never whistled since.

Also my boiler runs on a 15 minute cycle where it is idle for 15 minutes then everything starts up for 1 minute and then it sets for 15 minutes again.  It might smoke a very little on start up but it's so little that no one sees it. 

You might want someone that has hook up a few pellet boilers to look at it.  Sounds like the guy that did the install needs some help.  I'm a State certified building inspector and I have seen a few boiler guys that just should not be in the business if you know what I mean.

Where are you located?


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## Wayne64SS (Nov 11, 2008)

we're both in Upstate NY ... he's around the Lake George area I believe and I'm out near Rotterdam.


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## Richardin52 (Nov 11, 2008)

I'm in Maine so don't know any body in your neck of the woods you might make a post looking for people who had good luck with an installer in your area so you can find sombody that can look at the install for you.


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## taperk600 (Nov 11, 2008)

Wayne, other than my "over heat" circ being in the return line and your being in the supply off the PB, looks like we are pretty much identical as far as how they hooked them up. Let me know what response you get from John & Jeremy....I'm going to call Mark tomorrow and ask a whole bunch of questions. I'm also going to try to get info about a regional Harmon Rep and see if that could lead us in the right direction......


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## Wayne64SS (Nov 11, 2008)

sounds good, I talked to Mark the other day and he definitely seems like a decent guy. We'll get there.


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## Wayne64SS (Nov 11, 2008)

oh you know what... post after you talk to mark and I'll give him a shout and talk to him about this whole deal as well. Maybe he'll figure it out if more than one of us calls ... know what i mean?


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## taperk600 (Nov 13, 2008)

Whistle is the air wash over the glass. Dealer said if it was annoying, to just cover the slit in the door..it won't affect the burn quality.

Also had me change a couple of the DIP switch settings in an attempt to control the smoking at start up.

Will post result of the switch changes after watching it for a few cycles.


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## Wayne64SS (Nov 14, 2008)

Scheduled to have John and Jeremy come back next friday. I had to call Mark and put him in the loop. They weren't returning my calls. So far Mark has been excellent to deal with. I would buy another stove from this guy any day of the week. +1 for Mark & Home Heating Headquarters.


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## wpessin (Nov 25, 2008)

Tom,  I installed a PB105 last December.  It's in series with my OB--pretty simple setup, nothing fancy.  Out from PB goes in to the OB.  Return from the system goes in to the PB.  I lowered the OB aquastat to 120 deg. and turned the PB min-160 / max-175.  I have 3 forced hot air heat exchange zones, 1 baseboard zone, and an 80 gallon DHW tank.  When a thermostat initiates a call for heat, the appropriate existing circulator kicks on.  Siince the PB is heating the water, it keeps the OB aquastat over its min so it doesn't fire.  If we (my wife) forgets to reload pellets, the OB kicks in.  I don't use the outside air sensor.  I generally keep the feed around 3.  I've found that as I go higher, the auger pushes in new pellets faster than the old ones can burn (as evidenced by partially burned pellets in the ashpan), so keeping the feed rate around 3 produces the most heat with the least pellets.  My draft is perfect--checked it myself.

On very cold days, I burn 4-5 bags (I have about 6500 sq ft of living space, and wife/kids in the house all day so generally keep it at 70 deg 24/7 on 3 levels, plus with 4 little kids we seem to have non-stop laundry and baths).  On avg temp days we burn 2-4 bags.  After long baths/showers, the boiler temp plummets, and takes a while to recover.  The normal heating zones though don't have anywhere near the impact on the boiler temp as the DHW.

I've gone back and forth on whether to keep it on manual or auto.  Quite frankly, at the end of last winter beginning of Spring, I had set it to manual to avoid the "smoke" problem you mentioned--startup would billow so much smoke that I would just brace for the fire trucks to show up from a call from a neighbor (thankfully, has not happened!).  Keeping it on manual avoided all the startups, and all the anxious moments regarding smoke.  But, I routinely got the overheat shut down, especially when the weather was warmer--no calls for heat for long periods of time, eventually even the minimal amount of pellets burning would raise the water above the shut down trigger.  A dump zone would prevent this--something I'm considering.  I figure manual adds 1/2 to 1 bag extra per day. 

This fall, I switched it "auto" and tried to ignore all the smoke.  As I burned through most of the remaining pellets I had from last year, I ordered from what turned out to be the only source I could find (I live in Mass)--and got 2 tons of softwood pellets (they just say "Wood Pellets" on the clear plastic bag they come in--can't be that good).  BUT, I noticed that startup takes around 5 minutes (versus about 15 with quality hardwood), and doesn't "explode" with all the smoke--just a nice quick simple start and significantly less smoke.  Hmm, softwood pellets start easier?  I tested that theory with the hardwoods I had left (Barefoot)--tons of smoke.  So here's my theory: The hardwoods must have a higher flashpoint, so they smolder longer creating more smoke.  Try that yourself and see what happens.

Hope this helps.

-Bill


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## taperk600 (Nov 25, 2008)

Bill, thanks for your sharing your experience. With lots of help on these forums, I'm starting to get a little better handle on what the PB is doing. One thing that has helped with my "smoke" was changing the DIP switches which are now down, up, down, down (1-4). Using Marth Hardwood premium. Start up is pretty quick, 3-4 mins I'd say without actually timing it. Smoke is minimal now and not getting any hard starts. I was getting the smoldering/exploding into flame scenario when I had The 1st 2 DIPs up. And this gave me more smoke than when all were down. But the current setting has seemed to work (so far)


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## stephenmoore (Nov 26, 2008)

Hey PB 105 ers,
Any one getting a bump and or small crack in their burnpot ? Right above the igniter .


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## stephenmoore (Nov 26, 2008)

Re. Softwood pellets and less smoke.  Ithink Bill is right, I have used softwood pellets for about 10 years and never had many smoke problems.  None with the PB 105 for sure. How are your pellet supplies in your area ?


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## wpessin (Nov 26, 2008)

Stephan--yes, I just noticed that the other day when I was cleaning the pot -- not a crack but a small roundish rise.  Any ideas?


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## stephenmoore (Nov 26, 2008)

I'm guessing the swelling is from the heat of the igniter expanding the metal when it starts "cold". Have you had any igniter issues with your PB 105 ? My old burn pot on my Jamestown J-1000 was cracked for most of the time I owned it, and it's still running fine, 14 years later.


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## wpessin (Nov 26, 2008)

No problems (other than the smoke).  Trying the dip switch setting Tom suggested which I hope will reduce or eliminate the smoking all together.  I'm frustrated though on finding a good reliable distributer for pellets.  I'm paying well over $100.00 more per ton now than I did this time last year.  Just picked up a ton at Lowes in Milford MA for $300 (Greene Team), and that is significantly cheaper than some of the other quotes I got ($365 from PelletsDirect).  With oil/diesel/gas dropping, I'm hoping the pellet costs will also drop--otherwise my ROI will take much more time to realize.


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## stephenmoore (Nov 26, 2008)

Yea we have a real supply shortage here. I bought three pallets last month thank god. Cost a little over $1000. We're paying about $5 a bag for local pellets. They were $3 when I started 14 years ago. Hope the diesel will go down soon and make trucking easier on us all.


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## wil lanfear (Nov 26, 2008)

stephenmoore said:
			
		

> Hey PB 105 ers,
> Any one getting a bump and or small crack in their burnpot ? Right above the igniter .


 About 6 weeks ago mine did this very same thing, this bump will get worst. Two weeks ago I replaced the burnpot under warranty. The replacement part number is 1-10-73403, different burnpot than what was in it in the first place (check the owners manual part#1-10-0721), this one has no holes in it on the bottom near the auger and IMO, less smoke on start up..


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## stephenmoore (Nov 26, 2008)

Thanks Wil, Did your boiler's fire change any as a result of the bump and crack ? How was Harman on replacing it?


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## wil lanfear (Nov 26, 2008)

stephenmoore said:
			
		

> Thanks Wil, Did your boiler's fire change any as a result of the bump and crack ? How was Harman on replacing it?


 The fire didn't change with the bump. Mine got worst, the bump got larger, stress cracks between the holes. I had my dealer come to take a look at it, he said he had never seen a burnpot do this in all the years he has sold Harmans. He asked me if I wanted him to replace it or if I wanted to do it. I told him I would like to do it myself if it was okay with him. He also gave me a new igniter, the one with the blue trace on the wire insulation, suppose to be better than the one that came with the boiler.


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## stephenmoore (Nov 26, 2008)

Thanks for the part # Wil, I called my dealer this morning, I'll let you know how I make out. Hopefully the crack won't get any larger in the meantime.


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## stephenmoore (Dec 2, 2008)

Anyone ever heard a loud crashing sound, almost like glass breaking coming from their 105 ? I heard it this morning and went to check. When I got to my boiler the room was smokey  and there was a massive amount of un burnt pellets in the burn pot. I'm guessing the bang was the auger working a jam out. Any theories out there ?


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## AndrewChurchill (Dec 2, 2008)

I haven't heard a sound like glass breaking but I have heard several large explosions.  These happen when the burn pot has too many pellets in it.  I'm guessing the pellets aren't getting enough O2 and just smolder until they move enough to get air flow and then BOOM 

It's rather disconcerting to have it happen when you're sitting right beside the door when it happens!


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## stephenmoore (Dec 3, 2008)

Andrew, did you get a big blast of flyash expelled from your chimney at the same time as these explosions? I mean enough to cover cars in the driveway.


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## AndrewChurchill (Dec 3, 2008)

Not that I recall, but I suppose that's possible.


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## nmerrill (Dec 3, 2008)

Hey!  I have a bump in my burn pot too - first time i noticed I figured it must have always been there - never thought it might be growing.
I better take a look for cracks.

BTW, only once did I have an explosive ignition - happened to be standing next to it - scared the crap out of me!   It was early on in my use of the unit, the system was all new and I was still a a little anxious anyway...

It definitely was a result of an overloaded burn pot at ignition.  I think I had been monkeying with the knobs and turned it off, and on a few times, filling the pot.
Don't think it has ever done that since.


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## AndrewChurchill (Dec 3, 2008)

Where is the bump located?

I haven't noticed anything out of the ordinary in my burn pot but I'll be watching for it now.


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## wil lanfear (Dec 3, 2008)

The bump will start forming in the burnpot above the igniter, very small to start with but will grow to the point that stress cracks will appear between the holes. I've replaced mine, the replacement is a different pot, no holes in this one near the bottom where the auger feeds the pellets in.


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## taperk600 (Dec 5, 2008)

Hey guys, that "boom", explosion, etc is what my dealer called "spontaneous combustion" ...and he says it is caused by too many pellets been fed too fast prior to flame..... mine was doing this when we were trying to adjust my feed rate at restart and set the 1st and 2nd Dip switches on. Too many pellets, smoldering then catching fire. Moved my DIP to another setting (1 off, 2 on, 3 off) and haven't had it since. First time mine did it, I could have sworn it blew out the glass in the door based on the sound and the amount of smoke I got in the basement


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## stephenmoore (Dec 5, 2008)

Thanks for the info, I'll check my dip switrches, this has only happened once so I'm not worried too much, generally I get almost no smoke at start up. I'll keep you posted about the burn pot, and try to send some pics when I have it swapped out.


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## stephenmoore (Dec 6, 2008)

Hey Wil,
Did your dealer tell you to stop using your 105 after the crack in the burnpot was discovered ?


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## wil lanfear (Dec 7, 2008)

stephenmoore said:
			
		

> Hey Wil,
> Did your dealer tell you to stop using your 105 after the crack in the burnpot was discovered ?


 No, but I was getting concerned prior to getting the new one, the stress cracks really opened up between the holes, I suppose its possible for hot ambers to fall through into where the igniters is located


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## stephenmoore (Dec 7, 2008)

I'm not sure why but now my igniter has stopped working so I am using my back up system until the new burn pot gets installed. I am getting very frustrated with the igniter scenario. This latest one has lasted just since heating season started in October. Maybe Harman will actually let me talk to some one about it, and my lemon boiler. Oh well the back up system is fairly painless.


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## stephenmoore (Dec 9, 2008)

Hey Everyone, I have a new phantom that needs reckoning. Anyone heard a high pitched (10 kilohertz roughly) tone that sings when the auger motor engages ? Kind of like the sounds at a hearing test. It has an unmistakable piercing quality that resonates through my house...


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## AndrewChurchill (Dec 9, 2008)

Stephen,

You mentioned that you feel your boiler is a lemon.  What other problems have you had with it?


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## stephenmoore (Dec 10, 2008)

Andrew, my biggest beef with my boiler is the ignition system. I went through 5 igniters last year, and my new one installed at the beginning of the season has already failed. Now I have a cracked burnpot, and my auger motor is making a bizarre high pitched squeal off and on. I'm a little shocked a device of that quality would have so many repeated failings. It's further complicated by the fact the dealer i bought it from has now stopped being the Harman dealer. Not sure why. They are still looking after my boiler though. I find it odd too that you cannot contact Harman directly to address such issues. I bought the first PB 105 in my area and I'm sure the guys at the shop had no experience with it.  Not sure what I'll do if this continues, no doubt I'll drive from Halifax NS to Halifax PA and try to get some answers.


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