# Terrible chainsaw accident (wrist guards?)



## Mandoo (Oct 30, 2008)

I live in a nice quite area in the middle of nowhere. Last night as I'm returning home the blue lights are flashing in my neighbors drive and I hear more sirens on the way (adrenaline starts flowing only three homes on our street). My wife is walking toward their house and I jump out and join her. As we approach, my neighbors wife is hysterical claiming her husband is dead behind the house and something about a chainsaw! I'm freaking out at this point thinking OMG now what, the million things that run through your mind all at once or is it called reality!

1 local cop and 4 Sheriff deputy's were in the bottom as I started down one of them was on the way up and I asked about the situation his reply to the "is he alive" comment I made was "I'm no doctor but he was talking" I had to laugh at this point kind of a smart ass comment to break up the tension. He also said "there is a lot of blood" this ended up being an understatement!

I'm going to fast forward past the drama My other neighbor and I cleaned up more blood than I have ever seen, I'm talking a huge deep pile that made us wonder what was left in him.  We noticed an old Craftsman chainsaw on the floor and a tad bit of blood on it BTW we also found out it was a wrist injury I looked online last night about this type of injury and did find wrist guards but have to wonder if they were designed for older saws without the kickback safety features??

BTW my neighbor is alive and recovering in the Hospital as I type this! But remember we first thought he was dead! So the point of this post PLEASE consider this as yet another safety issue. Please feel free to comment on wrist guards and if they are even necessary with newer saws I purposely kept this off the chaps thread to  share my first hand witnessing of the carnage our saws are capable of and bring up the wrist guard question. I do not own the right safety equipment thinking I don't cut enough to bother. Before I start the saw back up I will be buying safety equipment, yes it could happen to anyone! One other thing I'm not too sure it's a great idea using the saw alone or without anyone home to help. From what I understand he laid down there long enough for hypothermia to set in as of now they think it might of kept him alive. I will update this thread as more info comes available.

Off topic: last night I had to ask my wife if she would leave me for dead like that? Kind of shows how some handle situations under stress different than others!


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## sl7vk (Oct 30, 2008)

That is horrible.  How do you reckon he sawed his wrist?  When you looked at the saw, I imagine the chain was still on it?


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## WarmGuy (Oct 30, 2008)

I'd love to see gloves similar to the gloves I use to handle burning logs in the woodstove.  I think they could design them so that they are practical to use (e.g. fingers pre-bent for gripping handle).


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## Mandoo (Oct 30, 2008)

sl7vk said:
			
		

> That is horrible.  How do you reckon he sawed his wrist?  When you looked at the saw, I imagine the chain was still on it?



Yes chain was on and I have no clue? I'm looking forward to his recovery and input.


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## Jags (Oct 30, 2008)

For the life of me, I can't figure out how a chainsaw would get to your wrist.  He would have to reach over the running saw to get there????

Sorry to hear about your neighbor.  May he have a speedy recovery.


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## sl7vk (Oct 30, 2008)

Jags said:
			
		

> For the life of me, I can't figure out how a chainsaw would get to your wrist.  He would have to reach over the running saw to get there????
> 
> Sorry to hear about your neighbor.  May he have a speedy recovery.



The only way I can think....

Leaning in on a cut, left hand slips off of the grip, onto the top of the running chain.........  

Yuck.


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## Adios Pantalones (Oct 30, 2008)

could be sl7vk, could also be operating with one hand for some reason- maybe adjusting a log for a cut with the other.

It's too bad- probably a long recovery.


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## oilstinks (Oct 30, 2008)

local firewood guy lost two finger when saw kicked back. Must have blocked the saw with had instinctively.


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## bayshorecs (Oct 30, 2008)

Using a light weight saw, pulling the triiger with one hand and grabbing the small logs as they drop off?

I must admit, I have done that from time to time.  I once reached across the saw and had a flash in my head that it was a REALLY BAD idea to do that.

Haven't done anything stupid like that since (from either side of the saw).


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## caber (Oct 30, 2008)

There is a device out there - i think by  New Zealand company - that fits on your chainsaw and you slide your left had into it.  The idea is that in a kickback situation, the instinct is to let go of the saw and protect your face with your left arm.  But if you keep our hand on the saw, you have more control and it is very likely your arm being where it should be will prevent the saw from hitting you.  Also keeps the left had from slipping off and hitting a running chain.  I think it was leather.  But I cannot recall how I found it before.  It was on a website somewhere.


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## savageactor7 (Oct 30, 2008)

Wow that was a real bad...he's fortunate to be alive.


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## pistonslap (Oct 31, 2008)

Closest I came to a major accident was a few months ago in the woods by myself after a rain. I always wait until the chain stops moving before I take a step to cut more. But for some reason my husky started to die as I was moving. I revved it a couple times and slipped on a wet branch landing on the ground with my face about an inch away from a turning chain. That's one my wife will never hear about!


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## Gooserider (Oct 31, 2008)

Definitely a bummer on the accident, and kudos on the decision to get some gear for yourself, but...

I don't know how he managed to get his wrist - I'm thinking it almost has to be some kind of grossly negligent / unsafe use of the saw...  According to the OSHA accident stats I've seen, the wrist is an area that doesn't normally get injured.  This suggests to me that your neighbor had to be doing one of those sorts of things that fall in the "Paging Darwin" category of unsafe moves.  Don't want to rank on the guy when he can't defend himself, but that's what it sounds like from your limited description.

I've never seen any safety gear of the same sort as chainsaw chaps and such are made of for the wrists...  I haven't gone hunting for it, but I think I looked through enough websites when I was shopping for my own gear that if there had been anythng that was in common use I would have seen it...

Over on Arboristsite, they have an outfit that is selling what they call "Arm-chaps" - but those are made of black leather, and there have been some heated discussions about just how much protection they would actually provide.  General concensus is that they probably wouldn't do much to stop a high speed chain, but that they MIGHT help in the case of a glancing contact with a chain that was coasting down or otherwise only moving slowly.  The chaps are mostly sold on the basis of offering protection against scratching from moving branches and brush, and other non-saw injuries of that sort...  They also claim to offer some level of wrist support.

The idea isn't a bad one IMHO, though it's rather a strange look, think cross between Biker and Goth chick; however it isn't "saw protection" 

As far as the notion of working alone - NO it is NOT a good idea, indeed every list of things related to chainsaw safety will say not to work alone...  In practice, I suspect there are an awful lot of people that DO work alone, and yes, some of them do pay a price for it...  What I would suggest if you DO have to work alone (i.e. you either work alone, or don't get any work done..) then you do some things to reduce your risks - 

1. File a "flight plan" - Tell someone where you'll be, and when you expect to be back, and that if you aren't back by reasonably close to that time, they should come looking for you....
2. Make yourself findable - mostly this is something to worry about if going into the woods...
3. Carry a working cell phone or (if near the house) a cordless unit...  (Know where you are enough to tell the 911 operator where you are as well...

Gooserider


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## billb3 (Oct 31, 2008)

I hope they get everything attached and functioning.

My sister fell off a ladder in a greenhouse and her wrist got sliced to the bone by an open pane of glass. Was told she'd be fine and Doctors were rather amazed at 100% use of fingers afterwards. Supposedly lucky it was a nice straight even slice to the bone. No missing pieces of muscles / tendons.

I don't like working alone with a saw, either. Especially  out in the woods.


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## Mandoo (Oct 31, 2008)

Follow up: He is fine and everything works! Expected to return home to his family on Saturday. They said something about being extremely hydrated and very lucky in regards to nerve damage and function. This is what happened, He slipped on a antifreeze or oil spill on the floor of course the saw was running. Thats it a simple accident that could happen to anyone at anytime! 

Thanks everyone for there input and especially the wrist protection info. I'm going to use the standard safety equipment and action/reaction style of thinking. I will never use a saw alone (NEVER) make your own choices but I'm telling you if you could of seen the carnage I saw it would scare anyone into common sense! (trust me I'm bullheaded)

Once again thanks for the discussion and enjoy your Halloween. I know I already had mine! (lol)


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## savageactor7 (Oct 31, 2008)

*thanks for the follow up info Mandoo...earlier today I was in the garage cleaning the saw and trying it imagine how it's possible to your wrist while running a chainsaw....now I know.


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## smokinj (Oct 31, 2008)

safty equment a friend and cell phone is a must even before you buy the saw!(this story just reminds me to always wear it)


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## Gooserider (Nov 1, 2008)

Agreed, thanks for the update, and glad your neighbor will be OK soon.

And again, not to pick on the guy, but I'm not sure I completely buy off on 





> "Thats it a simple accident that could happen to anyone at anytime!"


 By definition an accident is an "unplanned event", but I can still see a number of serious errors here that contributed to the incident, and I think it's worth looking at in the interest of learning from the other guy's mistakes - something that is usually less painful than learning from one's own...  %-P 

1. Working alone....  This wouldn't have stopped the accident, but MIGHT have gotten him help sooner, been able to do first aid, and so forth...

2. Was his hand on the throttle when not cutting?

3. Was he being careful to make sure each step is firmly planted before putting weight on it?

4. Was he running the saw outside the immediate cutting area? (carry saw to cutting area, THEN start it...  don't carry a running saw for distance.  I like to think of it as a modified basket ball "travelling" rule - don't go more than 3 steps without making a cut or turning the saw off)

5. Does the saw have a throttle interlock to keep the trigger from giving the saw gas unless the grip is fully grasped?

6. How did he do the fall?  When falling you either hang onto the saw tight with both hands, or throw it FAR away...  (You don't CARE about damage to the saw at that point...)

And so on...

Gooserider


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## Dill (Nov 1, 2008)

I've done the throw the saw technique. When you need to do it. Its split second thinking time and don't be afraid to chuck that  thing as hard as you can. I got whacked in the back of leg with a sprung limb that I hadn't seen. I was falling forward and threw the saw away. It was fine. I was fine. If I had held on it might have got nasty.


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## caber (Nov 1, 2008)

one of the top rules when running a saw.  Always, always, always check your work area for potential hazards.   I'm glad he's okay, but that accident was very preventable. He should not have been working around a spill.  When we get complacent and comfortable, we get injured.


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## Woodrat (Nov 1, 2008)

Speaking from personal experience- it's "pretty easy" to cut your wrist, aspecially if you're working with a fairly powerful saw (372XP), long bar (24") and no brake--- saws like that have the power to just rip the top grip right out of your left hand when the saw kicks back---- then your left hand is "perfectly" positioned to be nailed by the saw.  This happened to me after 40+ years of using saws..   Biggest problem with the injury turned out to be the nerve damage- they never reconnected, so half of my left hand is numb.     Most of the older people I know in the tree business "in any capacity" tend to believe an accident like that won't happen to them...(until it does!)

       Best wishes--WOODRAT


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## valleyflyfisher (Nov 1, 2008)

I made my living as a tree Faller up and down the coast of British Columbia for over 20 years and the single biggest factor for losing control during a kick back incident is not having your thumb under the handle bar. It is too inviting to lift it up on the top of the bar to rest your thumb/hand after using your saw for spell. But after seeing the after effects of a kick back that caught on a fallers wrist watch and nearly cut his hand off at the wrist, I never forget to keep my thumb firmly locked under the bar, at all times. 
An uncontrolled kick back, can and often does, cause your trigger finger to lift up on the trigger and rev the saw up real quick, but if you have control of your saw at all times, a stiff, or locked top arm, your thumb always firmly locked around the handle bar, even a sudden and violent kick back is usually fairly easily deflected to either side of yourself.
I know form experience that chainsaw cuts do not leave much material for the Dr to sew back together, so be careful out there folks and always be conscience of were your saw tip is and keep your thumb were it belongs.


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## crazy_dan (Nov 2, 2008)

If you are going to be walking engage the chain safety brake, it only takes rotating your left wrist a little and voilà the chain stops if not then you need to service your saw.


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## Gooserider (Nov 2, 2008)

crazy_dan said:
			
		

> If you are going to be walking engage the chain safety brake, it only takes rotating your left wrist a little and voilà the chain stops if not then you need to service your saw.



I have mixed feelings about using the brake like that, though it is probably safer than walking around with the brake off...  Three major issues, 

1. Dolmar's manual seems to warn against running the saw very much with the brake on - they say it can lead to mechanical damage.  Not sure how if the saw is just idling, but...

2. I find it awkward to get the brake off...  I haven't found a way yet that doesn't involve lots of fumble action...  Either I have to let go with the left hand and pull the brake arm back (while trying to hold it up with the right hand on the rear grip) or let go of the rear grip with the right hand and try to pull the brake back while holding the saw on the center grip with the left hand, or some variant of passing the saw from hand to hand...  All these moves feel clumsy to me, and make me feel like I'm less in control of the saw...  It doesn't help that it's hard to hold on to the the center grip while pulling the lever back - since you have to pull back almost to the bar in order to latch the brake, my fingers get in the way...  (If people have a solution to this, I'm open to suggestions!)

3. Sort of a carry-over from the firearms world - Cooper's third rule of firearm safety - place limited faith in mechanical devices...  It's a pretty safe bet that an engine that's off won't restart itself, but a brake can fail, get disengaged, etc.  It's better to have it than not when you have to unexpectedly stop the chain, but I wouldn't want to rely on it to stop the chain from moving when I could shut the engine off instead...

Others may disagree...

Gooserider


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## velvetfoot (Nov 5, 2008)

I just heard a guy who I know at work who has been doing tree work for years semi-pro, had a bad accident yesterday.
Details are sketchy, but as far as I can tell, he cut an artery in his leg and some ligaments plus who knows what else.
I heard he slipped, but who knows.
It's freaky.


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## Gooserider (Nov 5, 2008)

Question is, was he wearing chaps or other PPE?

Gooserider


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## velvetfoot (Nov 5, 2008)

Info sketchy.  
Word is, no chaps, but it's all rumor.
It's been warm.
Not saying this is the case here, but I've seen other instances where the more experienced worker is the one who gets it.


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## Gooserider (Nov 6, 2008)

Yes it has been warm out - chaps are uncomfortable in hot weather, but saw chains are just as good at cutting you in hot weather as in cold...  I don't care WHAT the temperature is, it's still worth wearing the gear.  I don't fire up a saw w/o it, though if it's hot out, I may take the chaps off when gassing up the saw, moving stuff that I cut, and so forth.  Big thing under those conditions is to stay hydrated - I've been known to drink 3-4 liters of water in a few hours (w/o needing to pee either....)

As to experts getting hurt, I've seen similar types of things, there is a definite experience vs. accident curve pattern, and it tends to show up in almost any "high-risk" activity, though some are worse than others...  "Newbies" have lots of accidents starting out, and then the number drops as the accident-prone get winnowed by Darwin, and the survivors gain experience.  After a while though the users gain experience, and get a bit overconfident and the number starts edging back up as they take more chances, etc....

The other big factor of course is simply "exposure time" - experience helps make you safer, but just the basic odds of "Chit happens" still apply, and a pro is going to spend a lot more time waving a saw around than us "weekend worriers" - sooner or later, the odds are likely to catch up with you...

Gooserider


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## downeast (Nov 7, 2008)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> I don't know how he managed to get his wrist - I'm thinking it almost has to be some kind of *grossly negligent / unsafe use of the saw*...  According to the OSHA accident stats I've seen, the wrist is an area that doesn't normally get injured.  This suggests to me that your neighbor had to be doing one of those sorts of things that fall in the "Paging Darwin" category of unsafe moves.  *Don't want to rank on the guy *when he can't defend himself, but that's what it sounds like from your limited description.
> 
> Then don't rank without knowing the cause of the accident, and you have the expertise to comment.
> 
> ...



OK Goose, you left out the vital : skill, training, experience. It's the brain. No "flight plan" is going to do anything to help. A cell phone can be crutch for incompetance, and lack of training. And, c'mon: "make yourself findable" %-P , with what, a GPS tracer or a barrage balloon?

Try this:
Learn how to use the chainsaw efficiently and safely. Get some training. Work with a logger or arborist.
Then, cut with care. *The fact is that most of us harvesting for firewood, pulp, sawlogs, and managing a woodlot, usually cut alone.*  Have done it that way for too long. 
Plan your cuts, have an escape route, work the saw correctly ( including use of the chain brake ). Learn to recognize dangerous cuts, bent trees under pressure, loose footing. 
That cell phone is not a help when you're on the ground bleeding out. Learn self emergency care, carry a kit ( the norm here is a couple of large Kotex pads stashed in easy reach and duct tape. If you have to ask why, you need some basic First Aid training ).

This not what people want to hear......................


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## WarmGuy (Nov 8, 2008)




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## velvetfoot (Nov 8, 2008)

Hindsight is 20/20.
For me, when that little voice says something like: "I know this isn't really safe, but its just this one time", I'll stop and be safe.


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## downeast (Nov 8, 2008)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> crazy_dan said:
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Part II Goose ( open suggestions ) 
With experience and a chainsaw with a chain brake, the saw should never be run @ WOT with the chain brake engaged. Exception when just starting the saw then immediately blip the throttle to idle. It is in all manuals.
*No experienced chainsaw operator EVER takes their hand off the handles while cutting and/or the chain is moving. EVER. * The awkwardness is simply from not practicing and little experience. ( Exception only when necessary when cutting high in a tree )This is real world stuff.
Use of the brake is simple and easy: tuck your thumb over the forward handle ( not for our top handled tree saws such as a Stihl 009 ), with the thumb securely around the handle, reach with your fingers to pull the chain brake OFF. To engage the brake without moving your grip on the top handle, drop your forearm to PUSH the brake on. Practice. Practice then it becomes second nature to engage the chain brake, or disengage. 
From the field and woods. Whatya think ? Call me in the morning. :cheese:


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## smokinj (Nov 8, 2008)

WarmGuy said:
			
		

>


Ok Iam looking at this chart anyone know where to get arm,wrist and or chest protection I have never seen any?


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## downeast (Nov 8, 2008)

WarmGuy said:
			
		

>



Professional training emphasizes *SEVERITY AND FREQUENCY *of injuries. PPE standards are in order of life threatening injury : left thigh, head/eyes/ears, feet. Get those and you'll be fine......along with experience and training and care.


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## smokinj (Nov 8, 2008)

downeast said:
			
		

> WarmGuy said:
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been cutting a long time, just never seen wrist arm or chest gaurd got left thigh, head/eyes/ears, feet! (hate seeing blood) Had to take a freind to the hospital on a knee injury! he passout after i got him in the truck felt like i was going to.He wasnt wearing chaps,he didnt beleave in them.(does NOW)


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## sl7vk (Nov 8, 2008)

smokinj said:
			
		

> downeast said:
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I've thought about getting something like this for this time of year.... 93 bucks or so is what I'm finding online.....

http://www.usa.husqvarna.com/node3302.aspx?nid=60083&pid=51381

I once saw a vest version as well..... Might have been made by Stihl though....

Ok, here's the Stihl version.  Pretty slick too!  The Stihl shirt is 69 bucks..... Seems like a great Christmas present to me!

http://www.stihlusa.com/apparel/features_shirt.html


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## smokinj (Nov 8, 2008)

sl7vk said:
			
		

> smokinj said:
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not ever seen one before they are slick!


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## Sealcove (Nov 8, 2008)

I have a pro forest jacket and the summer pro forest shirt.  They are very nice not only for the added protective layer, but they are great brushing clothes as well.  My jacket is due for replacement after nearly 12 years of abuse.


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## smokinj (Nov 8, 2008)

Sealcove said:
			
		

> I have a pro forest jacket and the summer pro forest shirt.  They are very nice not only for the added protective layer, but they are great brushing clothes as well.  My jacket is due for replacement after nearly 12 years of abuse.


Sweet looking for one right now!


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## Sealcove (Nov 8, 2008)

smokinj said:
			
		

> Sweet looking for one right now!



I am not sure what your needs are, but if you are primarily are using a saw to buck firewood you may not want a jacket like that.  It is pretty warm, and I only tend to use mine when I am in the woods felling and dealing with slash and brush.  Definitely not a great around the yard item.


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## downeast (Nov 8, 2008)

...I swear this is the final suggestion. I swear. I swear.................

Spend your $$$ getting: 
1. UL rated chaps, preferably wrap-around.
2. A UL helmet system ( check out Bailey's 'new' one from Germany, that is, how you say, "sweet" )
3. Good steel or poly toe boots.
4. Grip gloves ( the "protective"  backing on "chainsaw gloves will not do much for carelessnes,incompetance, or hubris )
5. Learn, train, observe, ask. "It is the little grey matter " Inpsector Poirot. 

You wanna look good, go to Brooks Bros., or Barney's.


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## sl7vk (Nov 8, 2008)

downeast said:
			
		

> ...I swear this is the final suggestion. I swear. I swear.................
> 
> Spend your $$$ getting:
> 1. UL rated chaps, preferably wrap-around.
> ...



I think you can do both.

Adding that Stihl shirt for 70 bucks, and some nice Husqvarna chainsaw gloves for 22 bucks gets you great protection for under 100 bones.  The graph above shows that the MAJORITY of accidents are hand/arm/upper body.  
So be smart, learn to use the saw properly, always respect it, but why not add a bit more protection for under 100 clams?  You have 2k worth of saws, for 5% the cost of your saws, you can get a bit added protection.

Now I think I'll go and get me one them Stihl shirts.  Try convincing my wife that I look Brooks Bros or Barney's!


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## downeast (Nov 8, 2008)

sl7vk said:
			
		

> [You wanna look good, go to Brooks Bros., or Barney's.



I think you can do both.
Adding that Stihl shirt for 70 bucks, and some nice Husqvarna chainsaw gloves for 22 bucks gets you great protection for under 100 bones. *The graph above shows that the MAJORITY of accidents are hand/arm/upper body*. 
So be smart, learn to use the saw properly, always respect it, but why not add a bit more protection for under 100 clams? You have 2k worth of saws, for 5% the cost of your saws, you can get a bit added protection.
Now I think I'll go and get me one them Stihl shirts. Try convincing my wife that I look Brooks Bros or Barney's![/quote]

I lied...sorry boys.
That graph is ONLY PART OF THE STORY. It is the old saw about statistics and liars lying.
From real world, real time experience, not some Google search, *MOST SERIOUS CHAINSAW ACCIDENTS ARE TO THE FEMORAL ARTERY. *Get out there, ask, investigate, look, experience. Don't take from some avatared persona, get out and try it yourself. No pretty jackets, no arm guards, no gloves will protect you from the most common chainsaw injury ( ask OSHA, MEMIC, your regional ER docs, the EMT's who will stop the blood ). 
You don't know a femoral artery from The Who ? Get to know, now. 
I am dismissed.


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## sl7vk (Nov 8, 2008)

We're in agrement here, that's why I wear chaps!

But I'm trying to avoid not only fatal injuries, but also going to the ER..... period!


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## Gooserider (Nov 8, 2008)

Mixed response...  Depends on how you define "serious" - definitely if you get the Femoral, you are in deep doo-doo, and chaps are the preferred protection for it, but I'd be VERY surprised if injuries to the femoral were a high percentage of the total - it's on the inside of the thigh, towards the back of the leg, so it's fairly well protected against a self inflicted chainsaw hit.  (Good thing too, as otherwise we'd have a lot more fatals)  I believe that the majority of chainsaw hits are to meat and bone areas that are messy, expensive to put back together, and potentially disabling, but not necessarily life threatening w/ reasonably quick and effective 1st aid...

What would be interesting to my way of thinking is to get a more detailed breakdown of those injury dots...  How severe were the average injuries in each of them?  How many injuries were actually due to hits from a moving chain / running chainsaw?

Keep in mind that "chainsaw related injury" may be a bit of a fuzzy term - it might include getting hit by cutting debris, or injuries caused by a non running saw.  Remember that safety rules and insurance regs for every place I've ever worked say that ANY injury, *no matter how minor*, is supposed to be reported, and is likely to be classed as "chainsaw related" if there was one involved in any way.

I'd especially wonder if that big batch of hand injuries might actually prove to include a lot of fairly minor scrapes and scratches, of the "hand slipped" while sharpenning / adjusting / replacing chain?  I've done several of those when working on my own saw, I cussed a bit, maybe slapped a bandaid on it to keep from getting blood on the saw, and kept on working...  However if I was working for a tree company, I'm sure the same thing would have required an accident report be filled out, and the report would probably end up on some OSHA bureaucrapper's desk...

Obviously it's in the interest of the protective gear companies to make that picture as bloody as possible in order to increase their sales, but it might result in a slightly misplaced focus.

Gooserider


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## Sealcove (Nov 8, 2008)

I don't have access to my files, but the statistic sheet I have from my last recurrent saw training has a similar diagram, and it it specifies that all injuries were body contact with a moving chain.  All were serious, and if you know enough older loggers you will see plenty with the scars and missing digits to match the diagram.  Improved training, techniques, and safety gear have drastically reduced saw related injuries in the logging world in the last 15 years.


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## Gooserider (Nov 8, 2008)

I would make an addendum from reading a huge number of safety gear related threads over on Arboristsite (where the really serioous chainsaw guys hang out) that there is a definite pattern about which gear gets worn and which is worth it...

Chaps or chainsaw pants, steel toed boots (preferably chainsaw rated) and a helmet / visor / muff system definitely top the list.  Almost all the posters claim to wear them, and the ones that don't generally get yelled at about it - the only exception being some of the climbing guys who skip the chaps while going up a tree.  There are lots of threads w/ gory pictures of not wearing chaps, and almost as many w/ pictures of shredded chaps...  Also a fair number of shattered helmet photos.

Chainsaw rated gloves get a more mixed review.  Most of the guys wear gloves, but a good many don't seem to feel the added protection of the chainsaw glove is worth the extra cost for them.

Very few seem to talk about wearing the shirts / jackets, and I don't see people that say they don't getting abused the way the non-chap wearers do.

Based on that, I'd say this is the purchasing order....

MUST HAVE gear - 

1. Chaps
2. Helmet system.  If you ONLY buck logs, then you can get away with a visor and muffs, but it doesn't save much and doesn't work as well (I tried it...)
3. Boots, steel toe minimum, chainsaw rated preferred.  (IMHO Matterhorns are the best, followed by Labonville's)

OPTIONAL gear -

4. Chainsaw rated gloves (I have and use them, but when the current pair wears out, not sure I'd get another, unless I find something with better fit and comfort)
5. Chainsaw rated shirt / vest - I'm not convinced of the need, and don't have.  If I did, I'd get as much for the "orange" visibility, and better brush busting as I would for any chainsaw protection property.

Gooserider


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## Sealcove (Nov 8, 2008)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> Very few seem to talk about wearing the shirts / jackets, and I don't see people that say they don't getting abused the way the non-chap wearers do.
> 
> Based on that, I'd say this is the purchasing order....
> 
> ...




I agree 100%.  Protective tops and gloves are not commonly worn.  I often use a protective top because I am cutting alone in relatively remote locations, and they have the added benefit of being good outer layer for thrashing around in dense woods.  On the gloves front, many professional users cut barehanded when temperatures allow.

Matterhorns are a killer boot, and I can hike with them all day and still have happy feet in all but the most frigid temps.


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## jibe (Nov 9, 2008)

-PPE
-Use the chain brake when you move, thats what it's there for. It takes half a second to put it on and half a second to turn it off. 
-Wrap the thumb. Wrap the thumb. Wrap the thumb. 
-Keep that tip away from objects unless you know how to bore with the tip. 
-Proper wedging and bucking technique to prevent pull and push back. 

Buying a bunch of Stihl chainsaw safety gear might help you out, but learning proper habits will serve us all in the long run.


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## downeast (Nov 9, 2008)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> Mixed response... *Depends on how you define "serious"* - definitely if you get the Femoral, you are in deep doo-doo, and chaps are the preferred protection for it, but I'd be VERY surprised if injuries to the femoral were a high percentage of the total - it's on the inside of the thigh, towards the back of the leg, so it's fairly well protected against a self inflicted chainsaw hit. (Good thing too, as otherwise we'd have a lot more fatals) *I believe *that the majority of chainsaw hits are to meat and bone areas that are messy, expensive to put back together, and potentially disabling, but not necessarily life threatening w/ reasonably quick and effective 1st aid...
> *What would be interesting to my way of thinking is to get a more detailed breakdown of those injury dots... How severe were the average injuries in each of them? How many injuries were actually due to hits from a moving chain / running chainsaw?*
> Keep in mind that "chainsaw related injury" may be a bit of a fuzzy term - it might include getting hit by cutting debris, or injuries caused by a non running saw. Remember that safety rules and insurance regs for every place I've ever worked say that ANY injury, *no matter how minor*, is supposed to be reported, and is likely to be classed as "chainsaw related" if there was one involved in any way.
> I'd especially wonder if that big batch of hand injuries might actually prove to include a lot of fairly minor scrapes and scratches, of the "hand slipped" while sharpenning / adjusting / replacing chain? *I've done several of those when working on my own saw, I cussed a bit, maybe slapped a bandaid on it to keep from getting blood on the saw, and kept on working... *
> ...



My god, another fact and experience-based rejoinder to Forest Gump stuff that seems to come from internet ether.
Please, step away from the PC, get out into the working world and get some basis for what is open ended opinion. If this sounds too harsh, well, saw injuries are. Your past posts belittled the use of PPE, then......? You order firewood, cut in your driveway then all of sudden you are a saw expert. People on this site for some reason accept what some write as gospel with no basis of judgement. Because of the relationship between a chainsaw chain and flesh, most injuies are NOT minor. 

"Defining serious" sounds too much like our obfuscating ex-president ( i.e. "it depends what you mean by IS." )
If you haven't had ER or EMT or field first aid training (sounds from your posts that you have not ), please don't 'splain to the audience where arteries are. There's plenty of detailed injury accounts recorded with any organisation: hospital, Workmans' Comp, arborist groups, pro loggers, etc.... Do some homework rather than pulling "facts" out of the air. Reiterate: the left thigh including the femoral artery are the location of most of the life-threatening ( read: "serious" ) injuries caused by chainsaws. 
Now guys: do you know how the speed of the chain at WOT ? A slow moving chain at a fast idle ( do you set low speed at no movement ?) will slice flesh.

Another: you have on investigated fact that the PPE ( not "protective gear" ) companies are trying to make the "picture as bloody as possible"  to peddle PPE ? Now Goose, what are you smoking there in Massachusetts ?  This is really  *READY FIRE AIM *. Please, call Stihl in Virginia Beach, Electrolux in Sweden, Bailey's, or Labonville; or maybe the UL labs that test the PPE. They BTW, make their money on more important equipment.....like chainsaws ! Do some legwork before you write. 

Sorry about the hard words Goose, but you are promulgating deadly misinformation.


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## Gooserider (Nov 9, 2008)

I haven't had EMT training, and my first aid training has been somewhat limited, but I've had a reasonable amount.  I particularly remember the femoral artery because it's associated pressure point always gets people wierded out in any kind of first aid class - a reflection on the whole sex / moral issue thing.  To be certain I had recalled my info correctly I just double checked on the location of the femoral artery, and yes it is as I recall, namely on the inside of the thigh where you need to get through a LOT of tissue to reach it (and where it's most exposed there are other things also at risk....)  NOT saying it can't be hit, but that a hit to the front of the left thigh is NOT the same as a hit to the femoral, though I am NOT challenging the idea that it's a potentially life threatening injury location. (And note that I said you were in bad trouble if you DO hit the Femoral)

Note also that I have NEVER advised skipping the essential safety gear - chaps or pants - boots (chainsaw rated, NOT just steel toed) and logger hat...  I have reported that I've seen less convincing arguments for gloves and vests - and that fewer PRO'S say they wear them.  I don't see how that counds as "belittled the use of PPE"

I have also never put down the idea of training - though I don't always push it in the context of a thread like this one which is mostly about gear, not training...

I will admit that I'm not an expert on chainsaw accident statistics, but what I have seen of them draws some significant parallels with the way motorcycle safety statistics get thrown about, and misused so I raise the same questions that arise from there...

I don't see the reason you're complaining so much...

Gooserider


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## sl7vk (Nov 9, 2008)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> .....
> 
> Obviously it's in the interest of the protective gear companies to make that picture as bloody as possible in order to increase their sales, but it might result in a slightly misplaced focus.
> 
> Gooserider



I've got to disagree with this statement.  Being that the majority of PPE makers are also saw makers, a bloody picture is not what you get....

Who makes PPE?  Stihl, Husqvarna, Echo, Dolmar... Labonville, and few.... independents.....  Most of those are saw makers.  Blood and gore doesn't sell saws.....

I would bet that the PPE for the smaller makers is a losing prop on their budget line.  But they are willing to take that loss, to offer the protection if someone should need it.  Wouldn't look good for Echo to sell the saw, but not hte PPE, and have someone cut their leg off.....


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## downeast (Nov 9, 2008)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> *I have also never put down the idea of training - though I don't always push it in the context of a thread like this one which is mostly about gear, not training...*I will admit that I'm not an expert on chainsaw accident statistics, but what I have seen of them draws some significant parallels with the way motorcycle safety statistics get thrown about, and misused so I raise the same questions that arise from there...
> *I don't see the reason you're complaining so much...*Gooserider



You're taken with things that you throw around as gospel without basis Goose. You are on this site at least, like your buddy Elk was, an "expert",  for some reason of an online persona. But when you post opinion as fact that is misinformation, even dangerous to novice or moderately experienced chainsaw users, it becomes an issue of safety. No complaint here, just concern about misinformation and malinformation. No "complaint"..... concern. Hey, we ain't talking bikes. 

Let's take your one simplistic comment about gear and training; they are part of the same for most who use chainsaws near full time or on a professional level. You need to train and know how to use tools and gear. Can you separate the firearm from the training to make you a safe and accurate handler of a firearm ? Not here, not in our background. They are part and parcel of the same thing....at least to most. No "complaint"..... concern. You need to be right, fine. But expect to take some grief about what you post when it is plain wrong.


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## Gooserider (Nov 10, 2008)

sl7vk said:
			
		

> Gooserider said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



PPE is like the vast majority of secondar products, there are a few outfits that make most of it, with rebadging and detail changes to supply the official sellers (as one example, Elvex makes Sthil chaps, and I believe Peltor makes most of the logger helmets with sawmaker brands on them.)

It is also worth noting that accessories are NOT necessarily a money losing proposition - Harley makes BIG bucks off all the chit they sell with their logo on it - (nearly all made by 3rd parties under license BTW) - and I've noticed both Sthil and Husky selling NON-PPE clothing with their logo all over it...  (IMHO somewhat deceptively, as the non-PPE stuff was displayed next to the PPE, with no clear labeling as to which was which)

As to "making the picture bloody" - it's called marketing 101 - the approach to sell things that are intended to increase safety is to emphasize the bad consequences of not buying...  

Look at the efforts to promote seatbelt usage - Do they show accidents where people aren't wearing them and don't get hurt? - You are told "Seatbelts save lives" - not the far more accurate "Seatbelts improve your odds, but won't always save you, and might even cause serious or fatal injuries that wouldn't occur otherwise in some accidents"

The impression that they give with that picture of chainsaw injuries is that all the injuries listed were "serious life threatening" - I'm certain that at least SOME of them were - no question about it.  But I have my doubts as to whether ALL of them were, although I don't know this for certain - which is WHY I raised the question of saying that I'd like to know.  I'm quite certain that if all those dots don't represent serious injuries, the guy trying to sell me gear by waving it at me is NOT going to tell me so.

Nobody is denying that chainsaws are dangerous, certainly I am not, and I don't think that saying so will reduce sales - the people that buy saws tend to be people that need them, and aren't going to be turned off by pictures of injuries.  (Unlike the motorcycle industry where you will be hard pressed to get an industry exec to even admit that you can crash on one)  You also aren't going to get any efforts to sell on the basis of "brand X saw is safer than brand Y" - so there is no downside to putting as many red dots on that picture as you possibly can - or at least picking the set of figures that gives you the worst looking scenario.

A couple of posts previously, I got yelled at for raising the question of what is the definition of "Serious Injury" - I don't think it is at all a silly question.  I think we can all agree that given that there has been an un-intended event, there is a wide range of possible results, ranging from "Do I really need a band-aid?" to "Get that man a leakproof casket..."  One end of the range is clearly not a "serious injury" the other obviously is, so the question is WHERE in that range do you draw the line between "minor" and "serious" injury levels?  If you are trying to make a statistical conclusion it's an important thing to ask.

I remember a study done years ago that challenged the old saw of "you are more likely to get hurt in a motorcycle accident than a car accident" - they compared injury severity and location between unhelmeted motorcycle riders, and unseatbelted car drivers - Turns out more motorcyclists suffered injuries to their arms and legs, but the severity level was low.  Car drivers had fewer total injuries, but most of theirs were to head, neck and torso, and had a higher severity....  IOW, the biker DID get hurt more often, but his injuries were less severe.

In another case of "definitions matter" - many gun grabbers claim that large numbers of "children" getting shot is a good reason to restrict firearms...  Sounds great until you dig into their "studies" and discover that they define "children" as being under the age of 25....  

To be Continued...


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## Gooserider (Nov 10, 2008)

When I see suspect figures being used for questionable purposes in other areas, it makes me look at ALL such claims with a degree of suspicion.  I'm not saying that the chainsaw safety numbers are being "cooked" - If I did, I'd be saying so with far more emphasis!  But I have my doubts and so I ASK the questions - which makes some uncomfortable...

It is entirely possible that the folks that are making the chainsaw numbers are entirely honest, and doing the best job they can - though cynical me would surprised to see that.  Given that there aren't as many political battles being fought over the topic though, it may be there is less incentive to "stretch" the numbers as much as there is in areas like motorcycle safety and firearms.

NONE of which makes a lot of difference in regards to the question of how much and which gear to get - I think there is sufficient antecdotal evidence to back up the list I gave earlier in the thread, as to what gear seems to be most vital, and what gear is optional...

Gooserider


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## downeast (Nov 10, 2008)

You are right, correct, and your veracity will not be questioned ever again. 
You are the man.


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## Sealcove (Nov 10, 2008)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> When I see suspect figures being used for questionable purposes in other areas, it makes me look at ALL such claims with a degree of suspicion.  I'm not saying that the chainsaw safety numbers are being "cooked" - If I did, I'd be saying so with far more emphasis!  But I have my doubts and so I ASK the questions - which makes some uncomfortable..



Chainsaw safety numbers came from within the forestry/logging industry; they had nothing to do with PPE manufactures.  Collection of these statistics stemmed from an industry wide desire to reduce logging related injuries and fatalities, which 10-15 years ago were still extremely high.  As I mentioned earlier in the thread, training, new techniques, equipment improvements, and PPE have all played a role in drastically reducing injuries.

If at some point I come across all of my saw training materials I will post some sources, or better yet I can scan some of the pertinent documents for all to read.


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## crazy_dan (Nov 10, 2008)

wow getting pissy over somebody saying that their list would be in this order of what they do and would wear.
I say if you want to were the PPE go for it and if you do not them you are more than welcome to.
For the record I am a non wearer in fact I cut in tenny runners and short sleeves sometimes even shorts.
No I do not care to hear about it and you would be wasting your time by telling me all about why I should wear PPE.
Every time I were Steel toed boots I cut the toe open and ruin a chain, I cut in tenny runners and never get close to my foot I guess it is a subliminal thing because I really don't like cutting up brand new size 15 steel toed boots.


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## Gooserider (Nov 11, 2008)

crazy_dan said:
			
		

> wow getting pissy over somebody saying that their list would be in this order of what they do and would wear.
> I say if you want to were the PPE go for it and if you do not them you are more than welcome to.
> For the record I am a non wearer in fact I cut in tenny runners and short sleeves sometimes even shorts.
> No I do not care to hear about it and you would be wasting your time by telling me all about why I should wear PPE.
> Every time I were Steel toed boots I cut the toe open and ruin a chain, I cut in tenny runners and never get close to my foot I guess it is a subliminal thing because I really don't like cutting up brand new size 15 steel toed boots.



You won't get chit from me - as a Libertarian, I believe in free choice, including what variety of handbasket  / bucket you wish to travel in... (Ref. Grateful Dead)

It also isn't unusual that you have problems with steel toed boots - look up "Risk Acceptance Theory" some time, there is a great deal of evidence that safety equipment of various sorts can actually cause people to act in a less safe manner - Average driving speeds go up when seat belt laws are passed as one example....

Theory is that everybody has a preferred "level of perceived risk" in their life that they feel most comfortable at, and they will adjust their behaviour to get that level of risk in their lives - thus if you push someone into wearing / using safety gear that makes them feel like they are safer, they will take more chances / act in a riskier manner in order to get their percieved level of risk back into their "comfort zone" -  In the case of a chainsaw, presumably letting the bar get closer to them and / or making riskier cuts...

Gooserider


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## caber (Nov 11, 2008)

Seems common sense is dead.


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## downeast (Nov 11, 2008)

crazy_dan said:
			
		

> wow getting pissy over somebody saying that their list would be in this order of what they do and would wear.
> *I say if you want to were the PPE go for it and if you do not them you are more than welcome to.
> For the record I am a non wearer in fact I cut in tenny runners and short sleeves sometimes even shorts.
> No I do not care to hear about it and you would be wasting your time by telling me all about why I should wear PPE.
> Every time I were Steel toed boots I cut the toe open and ruin a chain, I cut in tenny runners and never get close to my foot I guess it is a subliminal thing because I really don't like cutting up brand new size 15 steel toed boots.*



Agreed. Fine. Enclosed in Priority Mail is a Release Form for you to sign please. It states that the town, city, county, state taxpayers will not be responsible for the transport, evacuation, and E.R. care of you in the case of your chainsaw injury. You will not have access to your local EMT, and you will be unable to have any form of care. Thank you.

FYI: 
1. Skydivers and Paratroopers use Emergency Chutes as SOP. " I don' need no stinkin' backup chute," Dan
2. Civilian and mil choppers, commercial and private aircraft mandate safety harness' and seat belts. " Not me", Goose
3. Firearm training and range protocol requires certain safety gear and procedures. " That's silly", Crazy Dan
4. If you are slicing those boots with your saw, something is drastically wrong with your technique. I've NEVER heard of anyone, 
   professional or otherwise, cutting their boots with their chainsaw. Protective boots are NOT to protect you from a chain.

This thread is getting goofy. I'm getting ascared.   Paging Mr. Moderator. Paging Mr. Moderator.


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## Adios Pantalones (Nov 11, 2008)

Huh.  I wear a helmet/mask/muffs combo and steel toed boots.  I don't wear chaps, but I do sometimes wear pants.  

I bet I'd look good in just chaps.  huh.

I don't wear gloves at all on most occasions.  My wife complains if I've been splitting wood with a maul not wearing gloves.

Not bragging, but I have on occasion been a poster child for bad safety practice.  Ask Vic99 about the hung-up tree that I cut through and it came back and almost smashed my laughing face in.

As I get older I take it much more serious.


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## downeast (Nov 11, 2008)

downeast said:
			
		

> crazy_dan said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wait one minute.....The Moderators are running the show ! You can't page no one ( sic ).
It's the loonies running the asylum .


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## Sealcove (Nov 12, 2008)

crazy_dan said:
			
		

> For the record I am a non wearer in fact I cut in tenny runners and short sleeves sometimes even shorts.
> No I do not care to hear about it and you would be wasting your time by telling me all about why I should wear PPE.
> *Every time I were Steel toed boots I cut the toe open and ruin a chain.*



I just noticed that line as well.  Why is the bar anywhere near your foot?!?! You really should consider participating a saw safety course, because based on what your are saying you are a massive accident waiting to happen.  Beyond learning basic saw safety you would likely learn a load about efficient cutting and sharpening from a simple weekend class.  Otherwise I hope you are well insured, because at some point your luck will run out.


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## caber (Nov 12, 2008)

what I cannot understand is how anyone develops the line of reasoning that says "If I ruined steel-toed boots by hitting them with a chainsaw, the logical recourse is to put on cheap tennis shoes."  Ahhhhhh.... yeah.  

And how the heck do you hit your toe with a saw?  If you are doing that, you desperately need PPE to protect yourself from you.


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## Jim41 (Nov 12, 2008)

Every time I use my chain saw I am soooo careful to follow safety guidelines.  This is the most dangerous hand tool there is. Always 1)  wear safety geear 2) always keep your work area clear of debris, espeicailly near your feet and 3) never ever ever operate your chain saw without both feet firmly on the ground.  It is a great tool that needs to be treated with the utmost respect. One mistake, one shortcut can be costly........


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## Gooserider (Nov 12, 2008)

downeast said:
			
		

> This thread is getting goofy. I'm getting ascared.   Paging Mr. Moderator. Paging Mr. Moderator.



_*YOU RANG???*_

FWIW, I do make a clear distinction between two concepts....

1. The notion that using safety gear of the appropriate sort MIGHT be a good idea (depends on the gear, and the situation) and while I might or might not make the same choice - I will NOT give anyone making a different choice chit about it...

2. Some thug w/ a funny suit and a gun FORCING a person to use a given set of gear - which I will oppose on principle regardless of the gear involved, not because of the gear, but because I don't feel this is an appropriate area of government.

That said, I also don't have huge problems with people operating a service of some sort requiring their customers to use gear as a condition of service (If you are a guest in a house you follow the house rules...)  I'm also not all that bothered by insurance companies or others offering incentives of some sort for use.

However for the purposes of this thread, I will encourage people to wear gear when using a saw.

ART


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## rickh1001 (Nov 12, 2008)

This thread caught my attention.  I have ridden motorcycles since I was 14 or so, and tour usually anywhere from 5-10K miles per year plus.  When I was 16 and invincible, I never worried about crashes, until my first one or two (still have the scars).  When I got serious about riding later in life, I ALWAYS wear protective gear.  I literally, won't ride across the street without the routine of "boots,jacket, helmet, gloves".  It just becomes second nature, and that is a Good Thing.  Motorcycles teach you that it is not if you crash, but when, and when that does happen, you need to be prepared.  It is a mental thing.   My son motocrossed for years, then got a job in LA in the motorcycle business, and used only his bike for commuting.  He also taught MRC safety training courses, and is an excellent rider.  Within 6 months of working there, he had 3 accidents, none of which were his fault.  One was pretty severe, but he walked away with a ground down helmet and boots, plus a shredded jacket, from a 70 mph crash with a moron cutting over into the HOV lane.  But he walked away from every one, and bought a new bike afterwards.  Chain saws are not that different, and it is not if it will kick back, or if you will slip on poor footing, but when.   When it does, we need some safety protection.  If the money goes unused for buying safety gear, then give it to our kids (along with safety training). Just my two cents.


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## downeast (Nov 12, 2008)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> downeast said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And repeat:  THE LOONIES ARE RUNNING THE ASYLUM 

Gee, boys and girls, this is not some rhetorical clasroom excercise in some ideological discourse. This is real world stuff from the field. From those who do, have done, have the chops to know how to do the right thing. Period. No one telling anyone what to do. You want to be macho, want to hurt yourself, want to jump without a reserve chute, fine. BUT ( butt  :lol: )--do not expect us to pay for stupidity.   :red: The release form is in the mail....have you signed it yet ? :vampire:


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