# Empyre Elite boiler corrosion



## logger6644

I purchased an Empyre Elite 100 wood gasification boiler in Dec. 2010. with use beginning in the 11/12 heating season. I developed a boiler leak in Jan. 2013 due to creosote corrosion. In the attached photo, the area that failed was near the front right just below the side row of firebrick. The cutout shows roughly the extent of the corrosion and clean appearance of the inside of the tank.(my water tests were perfect) 
	

		
			
		

		
	




	

		
			
		

		
	
 I believe the corrosion was caused by creosote formed in the upper burn chamber flowing down the inside wall and accumulating behind the firebrick. Just below the damaged area is a duct directing air to the secondary burn chamber and you can see it has an opening at the top which allows air to escape behind the firebrick. I believe this oxygen source combined with the creosote is why the corrosion was so bad in this area. Has anyone else seen this problem? If you own one of these units, I would suggest you check under the firebrick in this area next time you shut down.


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## BoilerBob

Wow, thanks for sharing. Did you notify manufacturer? any response?  You need heat so weld that up asap.


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## maple1

Got a pic of the corroded piece?

I had been just leaving my primary chamber with a good build up of ash all over and not bothering to clean it out - but after more reading on here & thinking about it more I started a couple weeks ago also scraping the ash away from the outside bottom edges of the primary chamber (i.e. away from the firebox walls) and down into my secondary while cleaning my secondary out every day or two, while still leaving a good layer around the nozzle and on the floor of my firebox which is ceramic. That makes for a kind of a hump of ashes on the bottom, but I think I'll keep doing it that way.

Good luck with the fix - looks like it might be hard to get a decent waterproof weld all the way around that.


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## logger6644

BoilerBob said:


> Wow, thanks for sharing. Did you notify manufacturer? any response? You need heat so weld that up asap.


I had been in contact with the manufacturer since shortly after I started it up in the fall of 2011 and was not getting the output and seemed to be getting too much ash and creosote. They initially responded with maintenance and operational advice. When that did not clear up the problem they admitted they had made a change to the air gate and sent me some drawing so I could update my unit. When halfway into my second season I discovered a leak, the manufacturer offered to pay for a welder.  I was expected to do all the other work. When I disassembled the inside of the boiler to find the leak, I discovered layers of creosote everywhere under the firebrick and a duct that was supposed to direct air to the secondary burn chamber also directing air under fire brick in the area of the leak. The wall thickness was reduced from .134 inches to .020 inches. The opening in the top of the duct also allowed creosote to clog the air duct impeding the flow of air to the secondary burn chamber. So far no response as to how to deal with these underlying causes or reason why they are allowing air to be channeled under the firebrick.


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## logger6644

maple1 said:


> Got a pic of the corroded piece?
> 
> I had been just leaving my primary chamber with a good build up of ash all over and not bothering to clean it out - but after more reading on here & thinking about it more I started a couple weeks ago also scraping the ash away from the outside bottom edges of the primary chamber (i.e. away from the firebox walls) and down into my secondary while cleaning my secondary out every day or two, while still leaving a good layer around the nozzle and on the floor of my firebox which is ceramic. That makes for a kind of a hump of ashes on the bottom, but I think I'll keep doing it that way.
> 
> Good luck with the fix - looks like it might be hard to get a decent waterproof weld all the way around that.


 
I have a welder who says he can do it, although it looks hard to me too. If you look at the area I cut out, the parent material on the left of the hole is 10 GA (.0134in). At the top of the hole in the middle it is .020in. The inside is unblemished. The main problem seems to be the shape of the inside firebox which tends to funnel any creosote behind the firebrick. Seems to me there should be some type of drip edge that would direct it on top of the firebrick where it would be burned off. Thanks for the interest.


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## mr.fixit

Burn alot of oak? read this thread https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/varmebaronen-doesnt-like-oak.47956/
Low return water temperature also can cause firebox condensation which becomes very corrosive.

This video explains how it happens pretty good


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## Fred61

There are several reasons to install storage but if there were only one, this would be it.


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## willyswagon

Wow, I'll be giving that a close look when I clean the boiler out during today's warm spell.

logger where are you located?


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## jebatty

The video makes a few excellent and key points, which have been mentioned multiple times in many posts in this forum. 1) Need for return water protection: cool water in the boiler prevents the formation of protective creosote/tar coating in the firebox, allowing water to condense on the steel surface and corrode (water + creosote = acid = corrosion). Strive to maintain return water close to 160F (some boiler mfrs indicate 140+ is OK). 2) Long periods of idling, resulting from overloading based on low heat demand: results in creation of a lot of creosote in the firebox, accumulation and recycling of moisture = corrosion. Adequate storage can address this by allowing large wood loads to burn at full rate with excess btu's stored. 3) High moisture content wood is not good: implied from the video. Need well seasoned wood. 4) High acid wood is not the best: oak, for example. Probably should limit use and mix with non-acid woods.


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## willyswagon

So far things are looking all right in my boiler. Just fired it back up after a cleaning and inspection.
For some reason I can't get the video to play. Is it avaliable some where else so I could view it?

Logger, what are the last three digits in your serial #


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## logger6644

willyswagon said:


> Wow, I'll be giving that a close look when I clean the boiler out during today's warm spell.
> 
> logger where are you located?


Hi, I'm located in Canandaigua NY, in the Finger Lakes region. I bought my boiler in 2010. In March of 2011 they made a change to a part called Air Gate which affects the amount of air to the secondary burn chamber, but neglected to tell me about it until my persistant complaints about poor performance elicited a change procedure in Dec. 2011. By then I think the problem had compounded itself by causing creosote and debris to find it's way though the top opening in the duct, obstructing it, although at the time I still did not know where this air duct was or that it should be checked and cleaned. Their engineer said the duct was left open for cleaning but there were never any indication of the location or any cleaning procedure for this duct. He says there is a procedure in the works now and he is recommending the addition of 1 1/2" holes in the flat side of the duct for cleaning. He also agreed with me that it would be a good idea to block the top access hole with a patch sealed with high temp silicon so it could be removed. By removing a few of the fire brick in the area you will find the duct. Check it out and keep it clean. I'm still working with the factory to resolve the issue, but once I do I'm also going to add a drip edge to direct any creosote formed in the upper chamber over the firebrick where it could be burned off and not allow it to get behind the firebrick. If your boiler was purchased prior to March 2011,I'd check with the factory regarding the air gate modification.


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## logger6644

jebatty said:


> The video makes a few excellent and key points, which have been mentioned multiple times in many posts in this forum. 1) Need for return water protection: cool water in the boiler prevents the formation of protective creosote/tar coating in the firebox, allowing water to condense on the steel surface and corrode (water + creosote = acid = corrosion). Strive to maintain return water close to 160F (some boiler mfrs indicate 140+ is OK). 2) Long periods of idling, resulting from overloading based on low heat demand: results in creation of a lot of creosote in the firebox, accumulation and recycling of moisture = corrosion. Adequate storage can address this by allowing large wood loads to burn at full rate with excess btu's stored. 3) High moisture content wood is not good: implied from the video. Need well seasoned wood. 4) High acid wood is not the best: oak, for example. Probably should limit use and mix with non-acid woods.


Thanks, all good comments, but I had gone over all these issues with the Pro-Fab engineer, and eliminated them before they finally shared a modification they had made to the boiler after I purchased it that affected the amount of air to the secondary burn chamber. In my case the problem definitely started with this design shortcoming. The Pro-Fab boiler has a 140F pump shutoff but I think it should be higher.


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## logger6644

willyswagon said:


> So far things are looking all right in my boiler. Just fired it back up after a cleaning and inspection.
> For some reason I can't get the video to play. Is it avaliable some where else so I could view it?
> 
> Logger, what are the last three digits in your serial #


Hi Willyswagon, don't know what video you are referring to. I just posted a picture of the secondary air duct and the damaged area above it. The last three digits of my serial number are 223, and my purchase date was Dec. 2010. The air gate change drawing was dated March 2011. I wish they had told me then as I did not start my unit up until Sept 2011.


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## logger6644

mr.fixit said:


> Burn alot of oak? read this thread https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/varmebaronen-doesnt-like-oak.47956/
> Low return water temperature also can cause firebox condensation which becomes very corrosive.
> 
> This video explains how it happens pretty good



I burn some oak, but mostly very well seasoned black locust. My problem started with improper air supply to the secondary burn chamber which caused inefficient burning. Pro-Fab had changed the design but neglected to inform me of the change until it was too late, and the problem had compounded.


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## willyswagon

I just purchased mine in Sept 2012, and my serial is in the mid 400's.
Keep us up to date on this as I'm very interested.


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## logger6644

willyswagon said:


> I just purchased mine in Sept 2012, and my serial is in the mid 400's.
> Keep us up to date on this as I'm very interested.


I'll keep posting as I work though my problem. When you get a chance to check the air duct under the firebrick on the right side, let me know whether you find any blockage and if you find creosote seeping under the firebrick. It you have creosote where the duct is open at the top the oxygen and the creosote is not a good combination.Any blockage of the air duct will affect the secondary burn.Also if you do not see a directive from Pro-Fab shortly on cleaning procedures for this duct, I would contact Ben DeBruyn at Ben.Debruyn@profabgroup.com.


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## willyswagon

Thanks, for the info. I have dealt with Ben in the past and found him very honest and easy to deal with.
I wish I would have known about cleaning out this area before I re fired the boiler. Oh well I'll check it next week when I clean it out. Does Ben have the new cleaning procedure, or is the engineer handling that?
Are they thinking all units may need to have these new 1 1/2" holes drilled?


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## logger6644

willyswagon said:


> Thanks, for the info. I have dealt with Ben in the past and found him very honest and easy to deal with.
> I wish I would have known about cleaning out this area before I re fired the boiler. Oh well I'll check it next week when I clean it out. Does Ben have the new cleaning procedure, or is the engineer handling that?
> Are they thinking all units may need to have these new 1 1/2" holes drilled?


I agree, Ben has supported me whenever I have called him. When I spoke with him two days ago, it sounded like this was a fairly recent thing that he had done on his boiler. I also don't understand what company policy is regarding changes. They had changed the design of the air gate but never updated me or maybe this could have all been avoided. I never knew where this duct was or of the need to clean it, so it seems there is room for improvement in Pro-Fab's customer support. I would give Ben a call and ask him about it. You can mention you have talked to me.


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## willyswagon

I had no idea about the duct until you showed the picture in this thread. The next time I go into the dealer (hopefully tomorrow) I'm going to pull out the brick and see what a new one looks like so I will know what mine should be like.
If I could get your name so I can mention it to Ben that would be great.
Thanks again for the info.


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## logger6644

willyswagon said:


> I had no idea about the duct until you showed the picture in this thread. The next time I go into the dealer (hopefully tomorrow) I'm going to pull out the brick and see what a new one looks like so I will know what mine should be like.
> If I could get your name so I can mention it to Ben that would be great.
> Thanks again for the info.


My name is Mike Koelsch and I live near Canandaigua, NY. Let me know what you find if you get a look at a new boiler. Also see if the dealer has a list of people he's sold the units to and we could get a thread started here for Empyre Elite owners to share info and experiences.I ask some of the dealers in this area as well.


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## Fi-Q

logger6644 said:


> My name is Mike Koelsch and I live near Canandaigua, NY. Let me know what you find if you get a look at a new boiler. Also see if the dealer has a list of people he's sold the units to and we could get a thread started here for Empyre Elite owners to share info and experiences.I ask some of the dealers in this area as well.


 
Maybe there could even be a sticky on the empyre Elite IWB operation. I do not have one, but slowly looking and I like that the empyre have the electrical back-up option for 700$, wich is less expensive than a seperate electric boiler for back up.


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## logger6644

Fi-Q said:


> Maybe there could even be a sticky on the empyre Elite IWB operation. I do not have one, but slowly looking and I like that the empyre have the electrical back-up option for 700$, wich is less expensive than a seperate electric boiler for back up.


Hi Fi-Q, unfamiliar with what a sticky is, let me know. Do you have and Empyre Elite 100 and if so, what when did you purchase it? I believe the electrical backup they offer is only for freeze protection. It will not heat your house.


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## pelletdude

logger6644 said:


> My name is Mike Koelsch and I live near Canandaigua, NY. Let me know what you find if you get a look at a new boiler. Also see if the dealer has a list of people he's sold the units to and we could get a thread started here for Empyre Elite owners to share info and experiences.I ask some of the dealers in this area as well.


 
See the attached - the first is the new cleanout in the air passage and the second is the new clean out near the door. The .pdf is the cleaning instructions for a V1.


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## logger6644

Fi-Q said:


> Maybe there could even be a sticky on the empyre Elite IWB operation. I do not have one, but slowly looking and I like that the empyre have the electrical back-up option for 700$, wich is less expensive than a seperate electric boiler for back up.


Hi again. I did a little research on the electrical issue. Here's what I know. 1000 BTUH = 293 watt hours If you scaled it up to 50000 BTUH you have 14.65 Kilowatts. At 220 volts that would be something like 66 amps. Pretty heavy duty service. Not impossible though.


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## logger6644

pelletdude said:


> See the attached - the first is the new cleanout in the air passage and the second is the new clean out near the door. The .pdf is the cleaning instructions for a V1.


Thanks so much, can you tell the vintage of the boiler shown in the picture? They have obviously changed this area, but didn't tell me. Earlier in my problem, Ben had sent me the cleaning procedure, but you will notice it does not mention anything about the this lower duct.


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## pelletdude

Hi Fi-Q, unfamiliar with what a sticky is, let me know. Do you have and Empyre Elite 100 and if so, what when did you purchase it? I believe the electrical backup they offer is only for freeze protection. It will not heat your house.

The Electric is for heating your home in the event you don't put wood in your boiler. It is a a primary heat source for those that don't want a fossil fuel heating source. The Electric package qualifies for Mortgage and insurance requirements.


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## logger6644

pelletdude said:


> Hi Fi-Q, unfamiliar with what a sticky is, let me know. Do you have and Empyre Elite 100 and if so, what when did you purchase it? I believe the electrical backup they offer is only for freeze protection. It will not heat your house.
> 
> The Electric is for heating your home in the event you don't put wood in your boiler. It is a a primary heat source for those that don't want a fossil fuel heating source. The Electric package qualifies for Mortgage and insurance requirements.


What is the output rating of this electric system? What are the amp and voltage requirements for the hookup?


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## Fi-Q

logger6644 said:


> Hi again. I did a little research on the electrical issue. Here's what I know. 1000 BTUH = 293 watt hours If you scaled it up to 50000 BTUH you have 14.65 Kilowatts. At 220 volts that would be something like 66 amps. Pretty heavy duty service. Not impossible though.



Yup, that s approx what I figured out, and that is a 50 000 btus steady, 24/7 if needed. And for under a 1000$ i think it s a dair deal for a back up. As long as someone have the electrical power tu run it.


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## Fi-Q

pelletdude said:


> Hi Fi-Q, unfamiliar with what a sticky is, let me know. Do you have and Empyre Elite 100 and if so, what when did you purchase it? I believe the electrical backup they offer is only for freeze protection. It will not heat your house.
> 
> The Electric is for heating your home in the event you don't put wood in your boiler. It is a a primary heat source for those that don't want a fossil fuel heating source. The Electric package qualifies for Mortgage and insurance requirements.



A sticky is an important thread that moderator can decide to put on the top of the dirst page of a forum IE: for the boiler room: Fine tuning a eko..... Underground line, not a place to skimp.... Ect..... This need to be done by a forum moderator, but i don t know who it is for the boiler room. 

I don t have any wood boiler yet, still building the house ( long term project) as of now I have a wood stove and some electrical base board for back up.

Here , electricity is pretry cheap, 0.07$/kwh , so it will be my back up when I ll go boiler route.


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## logger6644

Fi-Q said:


> A sticky is an important thread that moderator can decide to put on the top of the dirst page of a forum IE: for the boiler room: Fine tuning a eko..... Underground line, not a place to skimp.... Ect..... This need to be done by a forum moderator, but i don t know who it is for the boiler room.
> 
> I don t have any wood boiler yet, still building the house ( long term project) as of now I have a wood stove and some electrical base board for back up.
> 
> Here , electricity is pretry cheap, 0.07$/kwh , so it will be my back up when I ll go boiler route.


I know about building your own home. I'm up to ten years and counting.Started with a log shell made by KEA log homes outside of Perth to my design. Sweet, but quite an adventure. My heat started with a leaky outdoor boiler I got for free. I welded up a doghouse tank and stuck it inside the original firebox. Not efficient but worked for years. Finally go for the big bucks for a new boiler and now I hit another bump in the road. This to shall pass.


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## maple1

There were a couple of Varm 'built in' electric heat options I could have gone with for my boiler for backup - either a boiler with elements in it, or a storage tank with elements in it.

I went with a separate 18kw electric boiler that I found on Kijiji for $400 that was 2 years old & came with a circulator. They pop up on there semi-regularly, seems there was always someone converting from an electric boiler to a heat pump. Not quite as 'clean' an install as something built in to a boiler, but I like modularity in my system and the ability to isolate & just replace one thing should it go bad.

It will only be rarely used (just one day so far) - anything much more than that & I likely would have put something oil back in for backup. Electricity is hardly cheap here - around 0.16/kwh after the BS tax & tax 'rebate' circus.


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## logger6644

maple1 said:


> There were a couple of Varm 'built in' electric heat options I could have gone with for my boiler for backup - either a boiler with elements in it, or a storage tank with elements in it.
> 
> I went with a separate 18kw electric boiler that I found on Kijiji for $400 that was 2 years old & came with a circulator. They pop up on there semi-regularly, seems there was always someone converting from an electric boiler to a heat pump. Not quite as 'clean' an install as something built in to a boiler, but I like modularity in my system and the ability to isolate & just replace one thing should it go bad.
> 
> It will only be rarely used (just one day so far) - anything much more than that & I likely would have put something oil back in for backup. Electricity is hardly cheap here - around 0.16/kwh after the BS tax & tax 'rebate' circus.


Just curious? What size breaker do you need for that boiler?


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## maple1

Ah yes, the breaker (& circuit) fiasco.

Based on the boiler specs, I needed a 100amp breaker (& the wiring for it) - but just by an amp or two. Forget now, but I think it specd 82 amps. My electrician was shaking his head the whole way through that - it was what he had to go by, or else he'd be in trouble if inspection revealed he put a breaker in that was under the boiler spec. He knew that practically, an 80 would be fine, but his hands were tied. Which I completely understood. He was also sure that despite what the specs said, it wouldn't draw 80 amps. And he was right. Once we had it wired up & he measured the load with all the elements burning, it was drawing something like 74 amps (I think). The boiler is pretty close to the panel - maybe it would have been more if it was further away? Anyway, 100 amp breakers & the wire to run to the boiler are pretty pricey. Not quite what I paid for the boiler, but it was getting up there.


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## EffectaBoilerUser (USA)

I'm not 100% certain but I think Central Boiler had a similar issue on their E-Classic when it first came out and there were also posts on this forum about it. Seems to me like it was an issue of creosote getting behind the fire brick also.

Can anyone help out here?

Brian


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## goosegunner

I think Central boilers issues were beyond creosoted getting behind the firebrick.

1. The years of marketing systems that can burn green wood.

2. Very large fire boxes that encourage overloading and excessive idling.

3. Lack of understanding of return water protection.

I am sure others could add to the list but the three above combined with the mindset of "I want to burn green wood and load the thing full so I only mess with it once a day" just spells disaster for a wood boiler.

gg


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## logger6644

pelletdude said:


> See the attached - the first is the new cleanout in the air passage and the second is the new clean out near the door. The .pdf is the cleaning instructions for a V1.


This is the cleaning instructions I got from Ben at Pro-Fab but it does not address or mention the lower passage you show in the pictures. Is there an updated one you are aware of? My problem stemmed from not being aware of this duct or the need to clean it.


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## logger6644

Just a quick postscript to my thread. I prevailed with Pro-Fab and they honored the warranty based on them making design changes that impact performance without informing previous owners. I now have the warranty unit up and running and have added someof my improvements to better seal the upper chamber from leaking creosote behind the firebricks. Pro-Fab recommended and I installed an ESBE valve loop to temper incoming water. However, to this date Pro-Fab has not changed their policy for informing customers or for that fact dealers of changes to design or procedures. I am still lobbying them to change this policy as I know I am not the only customer adversely affected by this shortsighted policy. If anyone else has had problems with the performance and maintenance of their boilers I would be glad to share whatever knowledge I have gained.

My thanks to this forum and to all you members out there for your help and suggestions. Burn it UP!!


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## EffectaBoilerUser (USA)

Great to hear that Pro Fab stood behind its products and made it right with you.


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## logger6644

EffectaBoilerUser (USA) said:


> Great to hear that Pro Fab stood behind its products and made it right with you.


Yes, they did come through at the end. Their first offer was to deny it was caused by a design problem, then they just wanted to pay for welding. I was not happy with that reply and ultimately they came around. I'm still involved with a discussion with them about their policy or more exactly their lack of a policy to inform their customers or their dealers of changes to design or procedures. So far no response on what their policy is so they are still suspect in my eyes.


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## jason buck

logger6644 said:


> Yes, they did come through at the end. Their first offer was to deny it was caused by a design problem, then they just wanted to pay for welding. I was not happy with that reply and ultimately they came around. I'm still involved with a discussion with them about their policy or more exactly their lack of a policy to inform their customers or their dealers of changes to design or procedures. So far no response on what their policy is so they are still suspect in my eyes.


 Thanks for the good info, I am currently going through the warrenty replacement procedure on my elite 100. My dealer said to have a warranty on the new stove, I have to buy profabs heat load recirc valve pakage ( optimizer elite V2 ) for $550.00. I just want to install a ESSB bypass system look like it shows on page 12 of the manual. Did they approve your system?   By the way, my loading door corroded through in less then two seasons. Thanks


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## arbutus

Jason, Did you have the stainless door that they now ship with?


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## jason buck

arbutus said:


> Jason, Did you have the stainless door that they now ship with?


 No, it was steel,  They sent the stainless as the replacement.


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## logger6644

jason buck said:


> Thanks for the good info, I am currently going through the warrenty replacement procedure on my elite 100. My dealer said to have a warranty on the new stove, I have to buy profabs heat load recirc valve pakage ( optimizer elite V2 ) for $550.00. I just want to install a ESSB bypass system look like it shows on page 12 of the manual. Did they approve your system? By the way, my loading door corroded through in less then two seasons. Thanks


Hi Jason,
Congrats on prevailing with your warranty claim with Pro-Fab. I was never able to get them to acknowledge having any policy for informing customers of changes or procedure updates. It is a pretty sad commentary on their customer service policy. I have gotten no response from anyone in the company at any level regarding this issue. I think spreading the word and warning people of the issues with Pro-Fab through this forum is the best we can do for now.

They had replaced my door once before my boiler failed, and the replacement boiler still had the old design door and did not have the update for the cleanout for the secondary air passage. I sealed up the hole below the brick with aluminum duct tape and will remove and check it all out prior to firing this fall.The new stainless steel door with the external latch is definitely better, wish they would have sent me that version.

I did purchase the manifold from the local dealer for $350 that prevents water below 140 F from returning to the bolier. It has a thermostatic valve and a bypass loop that recirculates the water until temp is up. This does not include the cost of the pump that circulates the water in this loop. It also requires a second pump to circulate water to your storage or heating system. I pump from the bypass manifold through a plate heat exchanger to storage and back to the bypass manifold with this second pump. Seemed to work well for the short time I ran the new system. You could probably build your own manifold but the thermostatic valve is $100 to $150. If I had more time I probably would have. I would definitely put one in one way or the other.

I've learned you have to be pretty independent and self-reliant to burn wood. It's not for the faint of heart, especially with these gasification boilers.


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## mustash29

I visited a dealer yesterday checking these boilers out and had a very nice chat with the New England distributor.  I was quite pleased with the whole experience.

It appears that they have re-designed the internals to eliminate this problem.  The new version has a 304 stainless firebox, a new lip overlaps the top of the refractory to prevent the drips from getting behind the brick.  The new style door latches are also more appealing as well as stainless doors.

All in all a good looking boiler that has simplistic controls.


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## Deepwoodsman1972

mustash29 said:


> I visited a dealer yesterday checking these boilers out and had a very nice chat with the New England distributor.  I was quite pleased with the whole experience.
> 
> It appears that they have re-designed the internals to eliminate this problem.  The new version has a 304 stainless firebox, a new lip overlaps the top of the refractory to prevent the drips from getting behind the brick.  The new style door latches are also more appealing as well as stainless doors.
> 
> All in all a good looking boiler that has simplistic controls.




Guys thanks for all the great info. I've had an elite 100 and I'm on my second year.  My serial number is 453 so I'm hoping I have some of the updates.  

Here's my issues and I'm hoping someone can shed some light on this.  It ran perfect year one.   This year I couldn't get it up to temp and after multiple conversations with profab I finally got the "cleaning instructions" they never tell anyone about.  I did the major cleaning and found the secondary duct was clogged with creosote and I cleaned both chambers out thoroughly.   I drilled holes where indicated.   Since then I've refired it twice.  Both times it works for about 10 days then I start getting a lot of ash build up in the secondary chamber.   Right away this tells me the gasification process isn't working right.  Sure enough after lifting the bricks out the secondary duct work is full of goopy creosote again.  The last two times I've had to get a torch to burn it out but I do get it clean after a few hours of work.  

Here what I do know:

1.  Burning a lot of oak.  Tested moisture and its 3% at most.
2.  I am burning it hot, loading it 2-3 times a day
3.  When ducts are clean it'll go up to 180 no problem.
4.  Temps outside have been relatively cold where I live.  Highs around 32F lows in the teens.  

How in the world do you get creosote from dripping into the lower ducts?   It's driving me crazy.  

Thanks again for the help.


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## maple1

3%? That has to be a typo? How long and under what conditions has the oak been cut split & stacked?

How much time does it spend idling? Sounds like loading 2-3 times a day with highs around the melting point might lead to a lot of idling, and creosote production.

I have no experince with the Empyre though, and we don't know anything about your heating load demand or heat loss - a bit more info might help, and hopefully other Empyre owners will be along.


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## Deepwoodsman1972

maple1 said:


> 3%? That has to be a typo? How long and under what conditions has the oak been cut split & stacked?
> 
> How much time does it spend idling? Sounds like loading 2-3 times a day with highs around the melting point might lead to a lot of idling, and creosote production.
> 
> I have no experince with the Empyre though, and we don't know anything about your heating load demand or heat loss - a bit more info might help, and hopefully other Empyre owners will be along.



We had a firewood moisture probe stuck into several pieces of wood.  I cut and split two years before I need it and it's stacked in a wood shed out of the weather.  We checked about 5 different pieces and all were between 3-5% moisture content. 

I don't feed it unless it's burned down to a bed of hot ashes of about 5" which is about every 8 hours. 

I know guys have had issues with the empyres as I've read on here.  Just wondering if any have had issues with continuous creosote build up and how often they are cleaning it.


----------



## maple1

I think it is physically impossible for the wood to be 3% m/c. Not sure how you're getting those numbers, but something doesn't seem right. I don't burn oak, but from what I've learned from others, I wouldn't expect it to get down to 20% with two years of drying time. Did you measure on a fresh split surface? What does it read when you measure an exposed stud or joist surface in your house?

Cue other Empyre guys...


----------



## Deepwoodsman1972

maple1 said:


> I think it is physically impossible for the wood to be 3% m/c. Not sure how you're getting those numbers, but something doesn't seem right. I don't burn oak, but from what I've learned from others, I wouldn't expect it to get down to 20% with two years of drying time. Did you measure on a fresh split surface? What does it read when you measure an exposed stud or joist surface in your house?
> 
> Cue other Empyre guys...


I did not, just checked the edges but I can cut a piece in half and recheck.  But most of this wood was dead standing oak when harvested.  With being under a well ventilated roof outside for two full seasons I would surely think it would be dry enough to burn hot and limited creosote issues.  I don't have any issues getting a fire going, etc.


----------



## treefrog359

Deepwoodsman1972 said:


> Guys thanks for all the great info. I've had an elite 100 and I'm on my second year.  My serial number is 453 so I'm hoping I have some of the updates.
> 
> Here's my issues and I'm hoping someone can shed some light on this.  It ran perfect year one.   This year I couldn't get it up to temp and after multiple conversations with profab I finally got the "cleaning instructions" they never tell anyone about.  I did the major cleaning and found the secondary duct was clogged with creosote and I cleaned both chambers out thoroughly.   I drilled holes where indicated.   Since then I've refired it twice.  Both times it works for about 10 days then I start getting a lot of ash build up in the secondary chamber.   Right away this tells me the gasification process isn't working right.  Sure enough after lifting the bricks out the secondary duct work is full of goopy creosote again.  The last two times I've had to get a torch to burn it out but I do get it clean after a few hours of work.
> 
> Here what I do know:
> 
> 1.  Burning a lot of oak.  Tested moisture and its 3% at most.
> 2.  I am burning it hot, loading it 2-3 times a day
> 3.  When ducts are clean it'll go up to 180 no problem.
> 4.  Temps outside have been relatively cold where I live.  Highs around 32F lows in the teens.
> 
> How in the world do you get creosote from dripping into the lower ducts?   It's driving me crazy.
> 
> Thanks again for the help.


 
hi I know your pain dealing with the ember build up in the lower chamber.  I have a XT 200 #525.  it is my second stove that I have had and this one is a bigger piece of junk then the first stove.  Ben at pro fab has not impressed me at all! yes he has tried to help but not doing any good.  Ben had no idea of all the changes that they made between the first and second generation stove. I would be just happy to get my money back and get a different stove.


----------



## Deepwoodsman1972

I'm slowly getting to that point.  I don't feel as a homeowner I should be the one drilling holes in steel duct work to clean it and making modifications to the thing that should be part of the manufacturers responsibility, especially after a $10k investment with installation.  

I just can't figure out why there is a constant flow of creosote from the upper corner of the unit, down the channel by the door frame, and under the bricks in the secondary duct to the gasification chamber.  Then why it rebuilds up after 10 days causing another cleaning needing to bust out the torch on a routine basis.


----------



## mustash29

To check your wood moisture, you have to re-split, then insert the meter probes into the freshly split surface.

You said you were going to re-cut, and that tells me you are measuring the cut end of the wood.  No good.  You have to re-split.

The general consenus around here is that standing dead (oak) can still be quite wet.  If you C/S/S and put it directly in a shed, how tightly is it packed in there?  It may not be as dry as you think.  Most feel that oak needs 2 years in the sun in single rows, then moved to the shed or "burn from here pile".


----------



## goosegunner

I have measured standing dead oak with no bark on the trunk. It is not unusual to split it and have it be 35% or more on the moisture meter.

gg


----------



## logger6644

Deepwoodsman1972 said:


> Guys thanks for all the great info. I've had an elite 100 and I'm on my second year.  My serial number is 453 so I'm hoping I have some of the updates.
> 
> Here's my issues and I'm hoping someone can shed some light on this.  It ran perfect year one.   This year I couldn't get it up to temp and after multiple conversations with profab I finally got the "cleaning instructions" they never tell anyone about.  I did the major cleaning and found the secondary duct was clogged with creosote and I cleaned both chambers out thoroughly.   I drilled holes where indicated.   Since then I've refired it twice.  Both times it works for about 10 days then I start getting a lot of ash build up in the secondary chamber.   Right away this tells me the gasification process isn't working right.  Sure enough after lifting the bricks out the secondary duct work is full of goopy creosote again.  The last two times I've had to get a torch to burn it out but I do get it clean after a few hours of work.
> 
> Here what I do know:
> 
> 1.  Burning a lot of oak.  Tested moisture and its 3% at most.
> 2.  I am burning it hot, loading it 2-3 times a day
> 3.  When ducts are clean it'll go up to 180 no problem.
> 4.  Temps outside have been relatively cold where I live.  Highs around 32F lows in the teens.
> 
> How in the world do you get creosote from dripping into the lower ducts?   It's driving me crazy.
> 
> Thanks again for the help.


Creosote dripping behind the firebricks ruined my first elite 100 serial number 223 purchased Dec. 2010. It corroded through the wall just above the secondary duct after slightly more than one seasons use due to the creosote behind the bricks and the air that blew on it from the cleanout slot. See earlier posts. After much debate, they finally honored the warranty and I received the replacement in Feb. 2013, serial number 629. One of the main issues was they modified the air gate in March of 2011 that controls the distribution of air between chambers. Without this modification, gasification was not correct and excessive creosote is formed. Never informed anyone. Your number falls in the middle so I would check with Empyre to see if it includes the new air gate. If not, it can be modified.  I have put metal duct tape over the cleanout slot opening at the top of the air duct under the fire brick to prevent creosote dripping into it. I also sealed the gap at the top of the firebrick with wood stove gasket rope and high temp cement. I did check it after a couple of months and it appears to be keeping the creosote out. As you see in earlier posts they have modified the design to address these issues in the latest models. Creosote is always a problem when burning wood, you cannot eliminate it; you can only minimize it.  To this end I believe the following things are vital:
1. Keep water temperature above 140F in boiler. Empyre will not honor warranty issues if you do not have one of their approved low water temp protection devices installed. I installed their thermostatic manifold in my new boiler.
2. Keep all air ducts and tubes clean. I clean all my heat transfer tubes at least once a week with a rotating drain cleaning tool and brushes.
3. Burn dry wood. You can only check moisture content in a fresh crosscut in the wood. 15 to 20% would be considered dry. Oak takes two years after split to air dry. I've taken down standing dead oak and it still drips water when split, especially red oak. 
4. Try not to add wood until it has burnt down to a bed of coals.
5. Monitor burn after loading because it often bridges, especially if wood is not real dry, leaving a gap over the gasification ports in the bottom. If this happens knock down the bridge for best burn.

Lastly I have found Ben DeBrun to be the best source of good information at Empyre. His phone is 284-364-2211 as of last year. 

I live in upstate NY with temperatures similar to yours and am glad to share experiences and tips on this forum.


----------



## Woodfarmer1

I have the early #150 boiler and last week my local dealer came to ensure the boiler was running and gasifying properly, which it was.  He showed me where the cleaning places were and what to do.  He said he has a couple of these early boilers in service and no problems as yet, it is the later models that were developing problems and even after the stainless liner was put in a few of them even corroded through.  He himself had a unit that was sent back.

I have talked to profab at nausium and they are really not concerned with their supporting current boiler owners.
I told them they should be doing recalls and update for current owners just as a vehicle manufacturer would.  I believe they should be supplying the optimizer and all updates at their expense as they know there is a flaw in the design of their boilers.

I asked another dealer if he would come and install the optimizer and he said "I am not interested".  

At $7000-$8000 theses boilers are way overpriced for what is involved and for very little expense they could keep a fair number of their customers happy.


----------



## logger6644

Woodfarmer1 said:


> I have the early #150 boiler and last week my local dealer came to ensure the boiler was running and gasifying properly, which it was.  He showed me where the cleaning places were and what to do.  He said he has a couple of these early boilers in service and no problems as yet, it is the later models that were developing problems and even after the stainless liner was put in a few of them even corroded through.  He himself had a unit that was sent back.
> 
> I have talked to profab at nausium and they are really not concerned with their supporting current boiler owners.
> I told them they should be doing recalls and update for current owners just as a vehicle manufacturer would.  I believe they should be supplying the optimizer and all updates at their expense as they know there is a flaw in the design of their boilers.
> 
> I asked another dealer if he would come and install the optimizer and he said "I am not interested".
> 
> At $7000-$8000 theses boilers are way overpriced for what is involved and for very little expense they could keep a fair number of their customers happy.



I agree,corporate Empyre is very unresponsive to any customer service issues. They could easily post procedures and updates on their website as I have suggested to them on multiple occasions....to no avail. In my opinion a very poor business model. They don't seem to take any responsibility post sale. They clearly have problems as their design changes indicate, but they don't tell you about the problems or the changes. These forums are probably our only recourse.


----------



## logger6644

Deepwoodsman1972 said:


> I'm slowly getting to that point.  I don't feel as a homeowner I should be the one drilling holes in steel duct work to clean it and making modifications to the thing that should be part of the manufacturers responsibility, especially after a $10k investment with installation.
> 
> I just can't figure out why there is a constant flow of creosote from the upper corner of the unit, down the channel by the door frame, and under the bricks in the secondary duct to the gasification chamber.  Then why it rebuilds up after 10 days causing another cleaning needing to bust out the torch on a routine basis.



Creosote is a condensation product, so if there is a spot cooler from either air flow or water temperature reasons, that is where the creosote will accumulate. That is the reason they want water temperatures above 140 to minimize creosote formation. If combustion air is cold, and since it is routed through the front of the unit,  that may account for why it forms there. That is why I took pains to seal the cleaning openings in the air duct feeding the gasification duct, both to prevent air from blowing out these openings and from creosote entering. It is also why I stuff gasketing and cement around the bricks to try to keep the creosote in the burn chamber so it burns off rather than get behind the bricks. Remember also that air increases the corrosive power of the creosote, that is why my tank wall corroded through just above the cleaning slot above the air duct. (See picture in earlier post)


----------



## mikedbrrew

logger6644 said:


> I purchased an Empyre Elite 100 wood gasification boiler in Dec. 2010. with use beginning in the 11/12 heating season. I developed a boiler leak in Jan. 2013 due to creosote corrosion. In the attached photo, the area that failed was near the front right just below the side row of firebrick. The cutout shows roughly the extent of the corrosion and clean appearance of the inside of the tank.(my water tests were perfect)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 91550
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe the corrosion was caused by creosote formed in the upper burn chamber flowing down the inside wall and accumulating behind the firebrick. Just below the damaged area is a duct directing air to the secondary burn chamber and you can see it has an opening at the top which allows air to escape behind the firebrick. I believe this oxygen source combined with the creosote is why the corrosion was so bad in this area. Has anyone else seen this problem? If you own one of these units, I would suggest you check under the firebrick in this area next time you shut down.


My name is Glen I also own an Elite 100 I went from telling people how great it works to swearing at I have the same problem this cannot be repaired because it will leak somewhere else I contacted Pro Fab there warranty dept. I could get an enhanced unit with 304 stainless steel I have to pay shipping or send mine in for the same enhancement but it would take 6 weeks we all need to stay together on this they must of known that was a very poor grade of metal and I do not believe that 10 gauge material breaks down that fast I purchased mine in 2010 also


----------



## Vizsla

I've been researching these Empyre's since I came across two for sale, one pretty close by and almost too good a price.   I so far have found 3 confirmed leakers, the close one needs welding too. The Craigslist dealer said he has replaced a few of the new stainless models as well that required an update to prevent leaking. They look like decent units, but deeper research shows more stories like these. Is there a simple fix or is it just a patch on a bad design.??


----------



## mikedbrrew

Vizsla said:


> I've been researching these Empyre's since I came across two for sale, one pretty close by and almost too good a price.   I so far have found 3 confirmed leakers, the close one needs welding too. The Craigslist dealer said he has replaced a few of the new stainless models as well that required an update to prevent leaking. They look like decent units, but deeper research shows more stories like these. Is there a simple fix or is it just a patch on a bad design.??


I am just now going through the process now and I having mixed feelings on this 304 stainless I could have the same problems later on looking at other oppsitions


----------



## Vizsla

Even if they did a swap, and you tried to sell the new unit. They don't seem to be selling. For what it is , it seems like a lot of money for a plain gasser. I agree that you do have to stay on top of it, since 
pro fab won't update their own customers. Its a shame they have zero concern for customer base. I unfortunately haven't read a good warranty story yet with Empyre

Good luck


----------



## logger6644

Vizsla said:


> I've been researching these Empyre's since I came across two for sale, one pretty close by and almost too good a price.   I so far have found 3 confirmed leakers, the close one needs welding too. The Craigslist dealer said he has replaced a few of the new stainless models as well that required an update to prevent leaking. They look like decent units, but deeper research shows more stories like these. Is there a simple fix or is it just a patch on a bad design.??


I'm hoping for my sake that it a bad design and the fix is a matter of keeping the creosote from getting under and/or behind the bricks where it can sit and fester. Even stainless does not hold up to an acid attack that well. 316 is better than 304 but acid is nasty stuff. This is not a water corrosion problem, if it were the 304 would represent an improvement. This corrosion is coming from the fire side not the water side. If I can succeed in keeping creosote in the main chamber where it buns off, I'm hoping I can get a reasonable life out of my unit. Unfortunately like they say, in for a penny...in for a pound. If I could start over I would pay much closer attention to designs and how they address this creosote issue. I've outlined what I'm trying to do to prevent this is previous posts and will keep the forum updated as I check under the bricks at the end of this heating season. An expensive experiment as it turns out.


----------



## logger6644

mikedbrrew said:


> My name is Glen I also own an Elite 100 I went from telling people how great it works to swearing at I have the same problem this cannot be repaired because it will leak somewhere else I contacted Pro Fab there warranty dept. I could get an enhanced unit with 304 stainless steel I have to pay shipping or send mine in for the same enhancement but it would take 6 weeks we all need to stay together on this they must of known that was a very poor grade of metal and I do not believe that 10 gauge material breaks down that fast I purchased mine in 2010 also


----------



## logger6644

Hi Glen, I sent you and email and hope you get a reasonable settlement from Pro-Fab. I also don't think the 304 adequately addresses the creasote corrosion issue, though I do think it and other updates such as the new door, latches and easier to reach clean outs are improvements and will get you a little ahead in the game if they replace your old unit with the latest  design. I did not get that offer. However, I feel strongly that efforts to keep creosote from behind the bricks is crucial.


----------



## Woodfarmer1

I took out the first firebrick on the right hand side just in front of the door hinge, all I could see is a roxul type of fabric, temp is dropping quickly so this is not the time to take the unit apart.


----------



## treefrog359

well I hate to tell you the updates on the xt 200 do not keep the creosote out from under the firebrick.  I found some in under the brick while I was on a wild goose hunt looking for what is causing my problems.  I am waiting an ben to come up with a solution. planning on calling Thursday when they get back from the holiday.  I am getting really sick of this playing games.


----------



## mikedbrrew

treefrog359 said:


> well I hate to tell you the updates on the xt 200 do not keep the creosote out from under the firebrick.  I found some in under the brick while I was on a wild goose hunt looking for what is causing my problems.  I am waiting an ben to come up with a solution. planning on calling Thursday when they get back from the holiday.  I am getting really sick of this playing games.


Hi Glen sending you a message does this xt unit 304 stainless steel then there should some sort of a flare welded above the top layer of brick to allow creosote to flow over the top of the brick I'll keep more attention for feed back I would like to talk to you also


----------



## mpraete

Vizsla said:


> I've been researching these Empyre's since I came across two for sale, one pretty close by and almost too good a price.   I so far have found 3 confirmed leakers, the close one needs welding too. The Craigslist dealer said he has replaced a few of the new stainless models as well that required an update to prevent leaking. They look like decent units, but deeper research shows more stories like these. Is there a simple fix or is it just a patch on a bad design.??


 I also have a 100. My question is how do you know you have a leak on the inside of the boiler?


----------



## Woodfarmer1

if your waterlevel is dropping more than usual? I don't think I add more than a gallon every other week


----------



## mpraete

Woodfarmer1 said:


> if your waterlevel is dropping more than usual? I don't think I add more than a gallon every other week


 A gallon every other week? Wow that sounds like a lot for a non leaking unit. Has it been like that from the start? It seems I have had to add more water lately so was concerned about a leak. I do not think it is evaporating out of the top water gauge. Previously I added only a very small amount of water, maybe a cup or two, every couple of weeks. Replacing 1/2  gallon a week must make it hard to keep up with the proper anti rust additive ratio? Aside from the cleaning issues the unit works great for my 2,800 s.f house. I just hope I do not now have a leak in my 2011 unit.
Another question, Does anyone have a 45 degree chimney pipe? I wanted to add a clean out and could only do it
by replacing the 90 degree with the 45. Any problems with this that anyone is aware of?


----------



## Fred61

I've had my make-up supply for my Eko shut off for well over a year with no change in water or pressure level.


----------



## arbutus

Fred61 said:


> I've had my make-up supply for my Eko shut off for well over a year with no change in water or pressure level.


 These are unpressurized boilers.


----------



## Fred61

I wasn't paying attention. Saw the last post and assumed the worse without going back to remind myself which boiler was being discussed.


----------



## muleman51

I was hopeing like all of you that these elite 100s were the answer. I get 3 to 4 hr burns now that it is below zero, cold boiler every morning and every night when I get home from work and I add a gallon to a gallon and a half of water a week. And you are right Pro Fab really doesn't care.  I'm thinking offpeak electric and the heck with cutting all this wood. I just can't get ahead of my wood pile. That old Aqua therm that burnt anything in it sure looks good now. At least it kept my house warm.  Just getting tired of the whole process.  Jim


----------



## logger6644

Woodfarmer1 said:


> if your waterlevel is dropping more than usual? I don't think I add more than a gallon every other week


Having to add any significant amount of water is a very bad sign. That is how I noticed my leak. A gallon is way too much. Also short burns like the 4 hours Muleman51 is getting is also a very bad sign. I suspect you both have leak problems and will have to deal will Pro-Fab once you verify. I am alarmed by the increasing number of blogs appearing on this site with apparently the same problem. It may be time to try to group together and try for some legal action. I think Pro-Fab is liable because of their masking of these design problems. If anyone is interested, please email me at michael.koelsch@gmail.com. If we get five or six, I will look into whether such a course is viable. I'm sure if there are 5 or 6 there are many more.


----------



## logger6644

muleman51 said:


> I was hopeing like all of you that these elite 100s were the answer. I get 3 to 4 hr burns now that it is below zero, cold boiler every morning and every night when I get home from work and I add a gallon to a gallon and a half of water a week. And you are right Pro Fab really doesn't care.  I'm thinking offpeak electric and the heck with cutting all this wood. I just can't get ahead of my wood pile. That old Aqua therm that burnt anything in it sure looks good now. At least it kept my house warm.  Just getting tired of the whole process.  Jim


Hi Jim, sounds to me that you definitely have a leak. I'm going to try to see if there is any support for a group legal action against Pro-Fab as they have been very unresponsive to these issues. My email is michael.koelsch@gmail.com.


----------



## maple1

I don't know about everything else posted above - but having to add a gallon a week to your boiler seems to be a sure sign of something bad going on.


----------



## Deepwoodsman1972

logger6644 said:


> Creosote dripping behind the firebricks ruined my first elite 100 serial number 223 purchased Dec. 2010. It corroded through the wall just above the secondary duct after slightly more than one seasons use due to the creosote behind the bricks and the air that blew on it from the cleanout slot. See earlier posts. After much debate, they finally honored the warranty and I received the replacement in Feb. 2013, serial number 629. One of the main issues was they modified the air gate in March of 2011 that controls the distribution of air between chambers. Without this modification, gasification was not correct and excessive creosote is formed. Never informed anyone. Your number falls in the middle so I would check with Empyre to see if it includes the new air gate. If not, it can be modified.  I have put metal duct tape over the cleanout slot opening at the top of the air duct under the fire brick to prevent creosote dripping into it. I also sealed the gap at the top of the firebrick with wood stove gasket rope and high temp cement. I did check it after a couple of months and it appears to be keeping the creosote out. As you see in earlier posts they have modified the design to address these issues in the latest models. Creosote is always a problem when burning wood, you cannot eliminate it; you can only minimize it.  To this end I believe the following things are vital:
> 1. Keep water temperature above 140F in boiler. Empyre will not honor warranty issues if you do not have one of their approved low water temp protection devices installed. I installed their thermostatic manifold in my new boiler.
> 2. Keep all air ducts and tubes clean. I clean all my heat transfer tubes at least once a week with a rotating drain cleaning tool and brushes.
> 3. Burn dry wood. You can only check moisture content in a fresh crosscut in the wood. 15 to 20% would be considered dry. Oak takes two years after split to air dry. I've taken down standing dead oak and it still drips water when split, especially red oak.
> 4. Try not to add wood until it has burnt down to a bed of coals.
> 5. Monitor burn after loading because it often bridges, especially if wood is not real dry, leaving a gap over the gasification ports in the bottom. If this happens knock down the bridge for best burn.
> 
> Lastly I have found Ben DeBrun to be the best source of good information at Empyre. His phone is 284-364-2211 as of last year.
> 
> I live in upstate NY with temperatures similar to yours and am glad to share experiences and tips on this forum.



Thanks so much for this info.  This is exactly what i did, and Ben mentioned to do.  About 10 days ago i took a torch and burned out the creosote again in the lower duct.  I then taped the holes off with aluminum tape and caulked along the top of the firebrick with heat caulk.  So far the gasification is working (knock on wood).   But as I read further in this forum it just occured to me that I've had to add water some over the past month.  Not a lot, but more so than last year.  I think last year (my first year with it) I didn't add at all. I'm hoping I'm just its just evaporation.

BTW I did retest the moisture in my wood by making a fresh cut.  I have 24.8% so thanks for that other suggestion.  

My biggest fear with this thing after reading all this is its not a matter of if, just when I will have future problems with this thing.  When it works, it works great, but for how long is the  million dollar question.  I do believe strongly they need to stand behind their product.  Thanks for all the insite on this thread.


----------



## Vizsla

Yeah you sure have that right, tons of good helpful info and people here.  It appears pro fab and a few other manufacturers have zero intention of maintaining a good name or staying in business for any length of time. Seems the thing is to close and reopen under new name thus eliminating any warranty work. It's already happened with a few popular OWB's . Plenty of articles on those. One thing I see here consistently on this site is a very well informed consumer, would put many a OWB salesmen and installers to shame, and give some hydronic tradesmen a run for their money for sure. I much like the support and mindset of higher efficiency and clean burning. A lot or all of the best of the best wood burning boilers and stoves here. Money and time are my limiting factors or I'd be in trouble.

I sure hope fixes and or new modifications can be made to salvage some of these big investments. 
I spoke with an owner and he is filling some gaps with sand to seal better.  There is fire proof caulk for fire stop, but not sure how well it would hold up past 700-800


----------



## Deepwoodsman1972

Funny I had no sooner typed that post than I went down to load it this morning and opened up the lower burn chamber.  I removed about 3 gallons worth of ash, most of which was larger size.  I had just removed ash last night as well.  This leads me to believe once again the gasification isn't working and the lower duct is clogged with creosote again.  

It's 1 degree this morning so to start the whole shut down process and cleaning again would be a 48 hour process.  At this point I might as well just take the ashes out every day until it warms up enough outside to justify a shutdown.

The pain continues.....


----------



## PassionForFire&Water

For the leak issues, did you guys tried this product: http://www.oatey.com/doc/boilerliq.pdf

I'm not sure how well it works, but I see it everywhere in shops (HD, FW Webb, Lowes) here in the North East


----------



## Vizsla

Yes I know that Oates stuff, and you should never use it. It will clog a flat plate or reduce its btu exchange badly. It will fill small leaks, pin holes, thread type leaks but nothing big. It's just like the car radiator stuff. How ever the grime that seals leaks also coats heat exchange surfaces , robbing btu surface area.


----------



## reog

Just got involved with my installer over an internal leak in the boiler. Seem to be getting a good response so far from Profab, but I am wondering what sort of prorated cost others have had to pay to get their leaking boiler replaced with the newer model? They are looking for $3000 from me to get it shipped and installed.


----------



## Deepwoodsman1972

They are screwing you.  They shipped mine to a dealership free then I had to pay an installer $700 to do the removal and install and he had to upgrade some things.  Bottom line is they should be paying 100% because they know they have a major problem. 

I'd be leaning on them a little harder on that


----------



## reog

D


Deepwoodsman1972 said:


> They are screwing you.  They shipped mine to a dealership free then I had to pay an installer $700 to do the removal and install and he had to upgrade some things.  Bottom line is they should be paying 100% because they know they have a major problem.
> 
> I'd be leaning on them a little harder on that



Did they upgrade you to the new boiler? And how old was your system? I am being quoted $1900 for the upgrade, plus freight and taxes, and my installer said it shouldn't cost "much" more as they are allowing him $400 for the replacement. (Out of my $3000)


----------



## Deepwoodsman1972

reog said:


> D
> 
> 
> Did they upgrade you to the new boiler? And how old was your system? I am being quoted $1900 for the upgrade, plus freight and taxes, and my installer said it shouldn't cost "much" more as they are allowing him $400 for the replacement. (Out of my $3000)



It's was refurbished one.   They said if they didn't have a refurbished one they would send a new one. They are as good as a new one from what I've read.  Mine failed right around 13 months.  The frustrating thing from everything I've read is that they know they have a serious issue with the first generation of these boilers.  They should be replacing everyone's for nothing out of pocket.


----------



## reog

Deepwoodsman1972 said:


> It's was refurbished one.   They said if they didn't have a refurbished one they would send a new one. They are as good as a new one from what I've read.  Mine failed right around 13 months.  The frustrating thing from everything I've read is that they know they have a serious issue with the first generation of these boilers.  They should be replacing everyone's for nothing out of pocket.



They offered me the same as I had for install fee and shipping, or the new upgrade for the $3000 figure, which includes the stainless door, stainless firebox, upgraded air delivery, newer door latches (by the looks of the pictures, mine creosoted closed within weeks all the time), and possibly a new warranty date... I am leaning towards the new build rather than a refurbished model, but it is possible the one I am getting is simply a rebuild with all these features I suppose.


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## Deepwoodsman1972

Here's what I know.  I bought mine (the original one that failed) and had it it for several months.  My friend bought another one from the same dealer.  Right before he was to pick up the new one that was in stock Profab wanted it shipped back.  They shipped him a new one with all the updates.   He installed the new one, then my original one failed several months later.

I looked at his new one that he installed and studied my refurbished one.  The issue was the creosote was dripping into the right side duct and eating away at the water jacket.  Plus it would clog up the blower chamber and there was no easy way to clean it.  I couldn't tell any difference between the improvements in the brand new ones versus the refirbs.   They basically took the ones back that failed, completely gutted them, and redid them like the new ones.  You will notice if you get a refurb though, as it'll have a smokey smell inside the the exhaust pipe will be black.  Other than that it works as good as a new one.

Bottom line:   I don't know if its worth the money is a brand new one unless you want a brand new warranty.  They knew what the issue was and the refurbs are as good as the new ones.  Mine refurb has a full stainless steel box, new door, etc.

Hope this helps some


----------



## reog

Deepwoodsman1972 said:


> Here's what I know.  I bought mine (the original one that failed) and had it it for several months.  My friend bought another one from the same dealer.  Right before he was to pick up the new one that was in stock Profab wanted it shipped back.  They shipped him a new one with all the updates.   He installed the new one, then my original one failed several months later.
> 
> I looked at his new one that he installed and studied my refurbished one.  The issue was the creosote was dripping into the right side duct and eating away at the water jacket.  Plus it would clog up the blower chamber and there was no easy way to clean it.  I couldn't tell any difference between the improvements in the brand new ones versus the refirbs.   They basically took the ones back that failed, completely gutted them, and redid them like the new ones.  You will notice if you get a refurb though, as it'll have a smokey smell inside the the exhaust pipe will be black.  Other than that it works as good as a new one.
> 
> Bottom line:   I don't know if its worth the money is a brand new one unless you want a brand new warranty.  They knew what the issue was and the refurbs are as good as the new ones.  Mine refurb has a full stainless steel box, new door, etc.
> 
> Hope this helps some



Awesome info. Thanks Deepwoodsman. I am going to talk to Jim at Profab tomorrow before I send in the credit card authorization. This helps a lot in my preparations for a discussion with him.

Cheers,


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## reog

I will post a reply after I get a new one in, within the next month or so, to keep the knowledge flowing and to help anyone else out there.


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## arbutus

Reog, I see you joined today, welcome.  Had you seen the history here and blocked that air duct off or ran it as it came from the factory?

I have a yet to be fired old model.  I patched over the cleaning port in the secondary air supply with a scrap of stove pipe steel and some stove pipe cement.
I can build a new door if the existing one burns through, and know a couple talented welders that will likely be able to patch a burn through in the right side.  Still leery of firing, and think I should have bought the Eko 40 for just a little more.

I'm just waiting on it to get consistently cold enough to need the heat.


----------



## treefrog359

reog said:


> I will post a reply after I get a new one in, within the next month or so, to keep the knowledge flowing and to help anyone else out there.


well it took me two years of fighting with profab on my xt200 to get a 60% refund.  what ever you do *get it in writing* i have been lied to time and time again. i had nothing in writing and i am out about 8500$  i was told i would be paid for all of my labor i did on my stove, then later i was told i would get a full refund for the purchase price.  all i was able to get was the little refund.  there is no way profab will ever fix that stove till they build a new stove from the ground up.  i have since installed a heat master G200 and so far i love it, way better build  stove all the way around.


----------



## Deepwoodsman1972

They are horrible to deal with, you just need to keep nagging.  You can google search problems with ProFab wood boilers Empyre Elite 100 and find all kinds of stuff.  The thing that drives me nuts is its just not as simple as "shipping another one"   These things are beasts and the costs involved with getting the old one out of a basement, new one in, hooked up, etc. ends up being out of pocket for the customer.   I had to lift my old one out with an excavator and put the new one in the same way.   It's not an isolated issue, or something the end user did to cause failure, its a major Profab issue.  And they are aware of it.


----------



## logger6644

After reading through the updates, haven't been on in awhile, I agree with Deepwoodman. Sounds like the rebuild option is worth considering rather than the $3000 offer, reog. I did not know the rebuilds included the stainless tank etc. Here's hoping the changes Profab made give yield a better long term solution. I'm hoping my creosote sealing attempts give me a few years leak free. I'll be watching to see if the upgraded Profabs are any better in the long run. Treefrog may be right switching to the G200. I think I would have switched if I could have gotten a cash refund.


----------



## reog

I hadn't done any work to the inside of the boiler as I never got any specific direction from Profab to do it. Nor would I have had the skill to weld on or cut out parts of my boiler. I didn't even start to look for this forum untill I found out I had an internal leak. The research I did before I bought it didn't suggest this problem.

I did contact them at the beginning of last season because I didn't get airflow and they explained that creosote may have gotten in the air channel and how to clean it, which I did with a long wire. It ran great all last season. No one mentioned last year that this creosote would/could lead to internal leaks.  I agree that better information from Profab may have saved some significant problems for them and us in the long run.


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## Woodfarmer1

I fixed mine for good, sold it this summer and bought a Garn Jr.


----------



## treefrog359

logger6644 said:


> After reading through the updates, haven't been on in awhile, I agree with Deepwoodman. Sounds like the rebuild option is worth considering rather than the $3000 offer, reog. I did not know the rebuilds included the stainless tank etc. Here's hoping the changes Profab made give yield a better long term solution. I'm hoping my creosote sealing attempts give me a few years leak free. I'll be watching to see if the upgraded Profabs are any better in the long run. Treefrog may be right switching to the G200. I think I would have switched if I could have gotten a cash refund.


if you really want to get profabs attention file a clam with the BBB.  that's how i was able to get part of a refund.  you can start with the BBB in the USA and they will pass you on to the Canada BBB.  on top of that you need to be a big pain in the butt to any one and every one at profab. ( weekly phone calls and emails + the BBB complaint)


----------



## DavelafsrCT

You guys and this thread are scaring me!  I have an Empyre Elite 100 on order and due here on the 8th.  I really had thought this was a great boiler when doing my research and now I am thinking I may have made a mistake


----------



## mustash29

Where in SE CT are you?

The first gen boilers are the ones that had the major problems.  Origonally the instructions had you hook the boiler circ pump up to the cheesy snap disc controlled outlet pigtail so the the pump cycled on & off.  It is way better to run the pump continually and use a temperature regulating valve (Danfoss) to control the return water temp to > 140 deg F.

Burn well seasoned wood, maintain your water chemistry, plumb it with a return water temperature protection valve, do not overload the firebox and allow it to constantly smolder in idle mode and you will grealty reduce these issues.


----------



## DavelafsrCT

mustash29 said:


> Where in SE CT are you?
> 
> The first gen boilers are the ones that had the major problems.  Origonally the instructions had you hook the boiler circ pump up to the cheesy snap disc controlled outlet pigtail so the the pump cycled on & off.  It is way better to run the pump continually and use a temperature regulating valve (Danfoss) to control the return water temp to > 140 deg F.
> 
> Burn well seasoned wood, maintain your water chemistry, plumb it with a return water temperature protection valve, do not overload the firebox and allow it to constantly smolder in idle mode and you will grealty reduce these issues.



I'm in Lisbon - near Norwich if you know that area.  The dealer I dealt with did tell me about the change over to SS.  I was somewhat reluctant about that because other manufacturers say it is bad to use SS due to cracking of the welds because of expansion and contraction.  That actually makes some sense to me because I am a toolmaker by trade and I know that is a fact.  The flip side is that SS is much more corrosion resistant.  So 6 of one....  I understand that Pro-Fab now requires the cold water safety valve due to need for 140 deg. F return water and the guy I am buying from told me to make sure and set up the loops to cycle 24/7.  It all makes sense to me but after going through this thread I started to have concerns.  I have never heated with wood in the past so this is all new to me and I am trying to learn as much as I can before I install and fire this thing up.  

Wood is another issue.  I bought 6 cords from a local supplier.  After I got it I found out that they leave it in log length for a year then cut and split per order.  I got a moisture meter and it was 37% when I first checked it about a week after delivery.  I put about 1/2 cord in my basement at that time and checked it a week later.  It is now at about 26/27% on avg. (I run a dehumidifier in the basement and have a fan blowing through the wood).  It seems to have dried an awful lot in a short time which makes me wonder.  I checked the wood stacked outside and it is still about 35%.  I think I am going to split some of the wood in the basement and re-check the moisture level on the newly split surface because it does not seem like it could have dried that quickly.  

Any help or advise would be much appreciated as I am new to this game.  Just can't stand seeing that oil man drive up in the winter


----------



## Woodfarmer1

First off, i had an early 2010 boiler with no problems and i run the snap disc.
The first change they made after that had  the problems, even my dealer had one last year that leaked.
I have absolutely no use for profab and not much for Ben either.
Pro fab knows they have major leakage with thier boilers and should have supplied all owners with the danfoss valve if that is what is required, not charge $600 for it.
Pro fab also claims you don't need storage, you sure do, i would only get a maximum 4 hours burn, get my system hot and then run out of heat.

Now the wood is a whole other issue, you probably wont be able to burn that load untill you get it down to under 20%, my best advice is to cancel the order and get organized for next year.
If you want to burn wood this year just put in a woodstove or find a wood furnace add on for now.


----------



## arbutus

Woodfarmer1, what SN boiler do you have and how much storage are you operating with?  Unpressurized?


----------



## DavelafsrCT

arbutus said:


> Woodfarmer1, what SN boiler do you have and how much storage are you operating with?  Unpressurized?



When you guys talk about storage are you talking about a hot water tank?  I am also wondering if you are have baseboard hot water systems or forced hot air?


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## Woodfarmer1

SN was in the 100's, I sold the boiler this spring and installed a Garn Jr. with 1000 g its unpressurized so i have a heat exchanger and in floor radiant pex.


----------



## arbutus

DavelafsrCT said:


> When you guys talk about storage are you talking about a hot water tank?  I am also wondering if you are have baseboard hot water systems or forced hot air?


Yes, typically a large hot water tank, a few hundred gallons or more.  I have lower temperature radiant floor and panel radiators, and am putting an old style EE in service when it stays cold enough.


----------



## DavelafsrCT

arbutus said:


> Yes, typically a large hot water tank, a few hundred gallons or more.  I have lower temperature radiant floor and panel radiators, and am putting an old style EE in service when it stays cold enough.


Okay.  So is the suggestion that you need a bank of hot water because the wood boiler can't keep up?  The idea being that you draw your energy from this bank of hot water instead of just circulating through the boiler?  I hope that is not the case.  I was assured I would have plenty of energy from a wood boiler to supply both, my heating needs and domestic HW.


----------



## Woodfarmer1

Correct, believe me i tried last winter and had to feed the boiler every 4 hours.
Pro fab advertised 100k btu i was getting maybe 50-60


----------



## Chris Hoskin

DavelafsrCT, this is a common misunderstanding.  It is important understand that adding thermal storage to a boiler does NOT increase the boiler's output.  It does, however, minimize the accumulation of corrosive creosote and water condensation in the boiler and so extends the life of the boiler.  Thermal storage also allows you to run the boiler when you need some heat in the house, but it is too warm to run the wood boiler (this time of year, for example).


----------



## arbutus

DavelafsrCT said:


> Okay.  So is the suggestion that you need a bank of hot water because the wood boiler can't keep up?  The idea being that you draw your energy from this bank of hot water instead of just circulating through the boiler?  I hope that is not the case.  I was assured I would have plenty of energy from a wood boiler to supply both, my heating needs and domestic HW.


 
No.  As Chris said above it is so the boiler can burn at full rated output and put its heat somewhere.
Hot fire, full output, minimizes creosote formation and accumulation.


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## maple1

Woodfarmer1 said:


> Correct, believe me i tried last winter and had to feed the boiler every 4 hours.
> Pro fab advertised 100k btu i was getting maybe 50-60


 
Storage wouldn't help that situation.


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## arbutus

Woodfarmer1 said:


> Correct, believe me i tried last winter and had to feed the boiler every 4 hours.
> Pro fab advertised 100k btu i was getting maybe 50-60


Pro fab advertises a 125k btu peak output and 66 kbtu with an 8 hour burn time.  What is your heating load?


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## Woodfarmer1

50k


----------



## DavelafsrCT

mustash29 said:


> Where in SE CT are you?
> 
> The first gen boilers are the ones that had the major problems.  Origonally the instructions had you hook the boiler circ pump up to the cheesy snap disc controlled outlet pigtail so the the pump cycled on & off.  It is way better to run the pump continually and use a temperature regulating valve (Danfoss) to control the return water temp to > 140 deg F.
> 
> Burn well seasoned wood, maintain your water chemistry, plumb it with a return water temperature protection valve, do not overload the firebox and allow it to constantly smolder in idle mode and you will grealty reduce these issues.



By the way.  Where in SE CT are you?


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## mustash29

Griswold, near Voluntown here, but work in Lisbon.  We should talk.

What Pro-Fab dealer are you working with?

What kind of wood do you have?  When was it cut?  When was it split?  I think you may have some wet wood issues this first year with those moisture contents.

I got behind in my wood for a few years in a row, it sucked.  I was routinely struggling with the stove and blowing through 4 cord + a tank of oil in the winter months.  Last year was cold as heck but we only burnt a little over 3 cord of 2 year old oak + the typical tank of oil (tankless DHW coil + back up heat).  I'm sitting on 13 cord right now, 5 of it is good to go.

Keep your eye out for log lengths this fall / winter.  Get a load or 2 of green on the cheap, have it split before you mow the lawn next spring.  You will NOT regret getting 2 - 3 years ahead on your wood piles.


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## mustash29

Here's my Elite 100 thread:  

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/gasser-about-to-pull-the-trigger.111869/


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## mustash29

The Elite 100 is rated:

44 K btu for a 12 hr burn.
66 K btu for an 8 hr burn.
125 K btu max, which should mean that a full load of good wood should be able to dump into an adequately sized storage tank in about 4.25 hrs.

44 x 12 = 528
66 x 8 = 528
528 / 125 = 4.225 hrs


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## DavelafsrCT

mustash29 said:


> Griswold, near Voluntown here, but work in Lisbon.  We should talk.
> 
> What Pro-Fab dealer are you working with?
> 
> What kind of wood do you have?  When was it cut?  When was it split?  I think you may have some wet wood issues this first year with those moisture contents.
> 
> I got behind in my wood for a few years in a row, it sucked.  I was routinely struggling with the stove and blowing through 4 cord + a tank of oil in the winter months.  Last year was cold as heck but we only burnt a little over 3 cord of 2 year old oak + the typical tank of oil (tankless DHW coil + back up heat).  I'm sitting on 13 cord right now, 5 of it is good to go.
> 
> Keep your eye out for log lengths this fall / winter.  Get a load or 2 of green on the cheap, have it split before you mow the lawn next spring.  You will NOT regret getting 2 - 3 years ahead on your wood piles.



Oh you are close by then.  I grew up in Griswold and have family in Voluntown.  You might now Rick M from Lisbon.  He works at the incinerator too.  
My son-in-law was talking about buying a load from Hull Forest Products and then we work together to cut and split it.  Might do that.  I think it is about $800.00 for a load and it says they avg. 8 or 9 cords to a load.  The wood I bought this year is from Harts.  They buy it from Hull as well, but they leave it in log lengths for a year then cut and split when you order it.  It is mostly oak with some maple mixed in.  I think there was some ash as well.  I got it early this month and moved some in the basement to try and speed the drying process.  I am afraid I will have issues this year for sure.  I will try and find some that is drier before it gets too cold but I am new to wood so I have no idea where to get it.  The dealer for the boiler is from MA - SJB Construction.  Got his name from Pro-Fab.  Based on the house I am heating he told me in a really cold winter to expect to burn 5 cords.  I bought six for this year hoping to have some left over for a start on a surplus.  I was not expecting to have anywhere near 13 cords hanging around though lol.  I am expecting a learning curve with all of this for sure.


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## mustash29

Fresh split oak is not going to be ideal for this winter, the maple will be slightly better & the ash better than that.

Something like this might be worth your while to look into, especially if you have access to a good truck or decent trailer to haul it with.

http://newhaven.craigslist.org/for/4674456499.html


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## Woodfarmer1

I just started the garn at 4:30 51 deg, till 9pm 171 deg with about a wheelbarrow load of beech.
That's about the same amount I put thru a cold empire, to get 60 gallons up to temp vs the garns 1000 gallons.


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## Woodfarmer1

7am, after 10 hours the garn tank is 100 deg and its not insulated yet.


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## mustash29

So you are saying that the same amount of wood (assuming all things equal like btu content, seasoning, etc) will produce 16 & 2/3 times more (1000 gal / 60 gal) btu's of heat output in the Garn vs. an Empyre?

That sounds a bit far fetched to me.

A few posts up you mention your heating load is 50K, yet in another thread you say your house needs 110K.  Maybe you undersized the boiler when you chose an Elite 100.  Maybe you did have issues with your Elite but if it was running flat out all the time, it will need to be re-loaded every 4 hrs or so.

Granted some Pro-Fab owners have had problems, but in discussing those issues, it would be helpful to know 
all the supporting info as well.  Was it an indoor or outdoor unit?  The outdoor units seemed to be insulated poorly.  How well were the underground pex lines insulated?  Details about the (atmospheric) near boiler piping?  Details about the (pressurized) house piping & heat distrubution, etc?

If you put new tires on a worn out front end with bad ball joints and bearings and don't get an allingment, don't go bashing the tires for being crappy.


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## heaterman

Woodfarmer1 said:


> 7am, after 10 hours the garn tank is 100 deg and its not insulated yet.




Must be a wee bit warm in the boiler room .     Insulating scheduled for this weekends project?

So the Jr raised 1000 gallons of water about 120* in 4-1/2 hours.........that's pretty near 200,000 btu/hr which is right on the rated output. Close to 1MMbtu dumped into storage.
Those numbers are pretty normal and indicate things are working as they should be.


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## Woodfarmer1

Yes it is Steve thanks for all your help.

To clarify my heat design called for 40k, Pro Fab said based on my house sf i would need 80-100k.

I then told them i bought the 100 based on their advertised output. I understood 125k was max, but i did not get the 60-100k over or anywheres near 8 hours.
Its the same addage as a car engine "no replacement for displacement". Empyre does not push or even recommend storage, therefore how can you even expect to get anymore than a few hours burn, as soon as the 60 gallons goes through the system, fire is out and there is no more heat.


----------



## Deepwoodsman1972

Here's some other information if its helpful:

1. My house is about 3500 sf.  I burned about 10 cords last winter.  I don't heat domestic hot water, just radiant baseboards.  Burn time between refills is about 10-12 hours.  Feed it in the mornng and evening.  When its really cold (0 -15F outside) I will throw a couple extra pieces inside mid-day.

2.  Burn mostly oak, cut and split two years ahead.  Store it all under roof outside.  Moisture at burn time is between 5-13%.

3.  I am on my second boilder (EE 100).   Refurb. one.  So far so good but have only had this one for 1/2 of last winter.   I'd sad to see so many problems from Empyre.  I agree customer service is horrible.

4.  Before I fire mine this year I am going to have my terracota liner torn out of my chimney and have a stainless steel liner put in to reduce creosote build up.  I have two other friends that have these boilers and have had dramatically less creosote buildup after this was done, not too mention alot more efficiency.

5.  I agree with the whole Danfoss Valve BS.  If you were required to have it since day one, they should have told you and included it before I had to rip my first boiler out and replace it.


----------



## mustash29

Mine is a 1st gen, refurbished, but not yet fired, that I got used.  Getting ready to start a good "stay-cation" so hoping to have it up and running within a few weeks.

The way I see it, Pro-Fab put these on the market without realizing the issues, and have since made improvements.  Some owners have had problems.  Some dealers were very supportive of customers needs, other were not as good.  The local guy I was contemplating buying a new one from was extremely helpful in answering my questions, explaining the history, etc.  At that time, he happened to be the rep for the whole northeast as I understand it.  Meanwhile I found mine on CL.  Owner had issues, had it refurbished, but sold the house.  The buyer threw it on CL.

I personally don't feel these units are worth what the normally sell for, as they are a cross between an OWB (simple cyclic temp controller) and an indoor gasser.  There are good or better lambda boilers on the market for similar pricing or only a little more.  I got mine 60% off and am hoping that with good wood, good plumbing, some additional storage & good h2O chemistry I'll get my $$$ worth.

As far as Pro-Fab, they should stand behind their product.  They now require you to use their (grossly overpriced) ESO device in order to qualify for warranty coverage from day one.  That is hogwash.  As long as the boiler is plumbed correctly with an equally compatible device (Danfoss or loading unit) the warranty should still apply.  For those who are stuck being told that they must fork over additional $$$ for the ESO to make the boiler work propelry.....well if it makes the boiler work better and keeps it working correctly for the long term, why not buy it?  At the minimum Pro-Fab should be offering the ESO to prior owners (who are having issues) at a significanly reduced cost.

I'm sure everyone would be happy if their dealer called as said "there have been engineering updates, please contact (joe plumber) at ###  and schedule a time for him to come over and install these updates for you at no charge."


----------



## Woodfarmer1

So mustash you've been talking like an experienced empyre owner and I have just realized you have never even fired one yet?


----------



## mustash29

No, I have not fired mine yet.

I have spent the last year studying and re-studying every Empyre thread, video, corrosion discussion, etc. that I have been able to find on the net.  I have been researching gassers for about 3 years now.  I just took a supervisory position, but for the last 14 years I have been a control room operator at a trash to energy facility with two 500 ton/day updraft gassification boilers.  My first year at the plant was as a field operator, roving watch if you will.  And the 10 years before that I was an electronics technician / control room operator on a nuclear powered aircraft carrier.  I've been a stove burner for 17 years.

I am not a hydronics professional like a few others on this board, however, I am not exactly a novice when it comes to combustion technology, heat transfer, fluid flow, corrosion, metallurgy, fracture mechanics and failure analysis.

I can tell you that burning wet & frozen snow covered garbage in two of these is VERY similar to burning green wood.


----------



## mustash29

And this 17 megawatt turbine likes 830 deg steam at 855 psi.



[URL=http://s23.photobucket.com/user/Mustash29/media/Misc/DSC01238.jpg.html]
	
[/URL]


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## mustash29




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## Woodfarmer1

That's what i can't understand, with all you've learned, why choose the Empyre?


----------



## mustash29

I have a very limited basement area, 14 x 16 and only 7.5 tall.  I can't knock out any walls to get big tanks in there because they are all load bearing with many things causing interference.

CT is Nazi like with OWB's.  My town building inspector absolutely refused to wrap his hands around the idea of an indoor gasser installed in an outbuilding next to or attached to the outside the house.  All he could understand is the OWB concept, which would have required a 4th flue approaching 45 feet high to clear the neighbor's roof peak.  When I discussed a Garn Jr installed inside of a shed / alcove addition to the house on a concrete slab, all he could understand is "you can't direct vent an OWB, you can't put and OWB next to or attached to the house, you can't put a wood burner in a garage."  The guy was soooo close minded.

When it is all said and done I should have:
- 400 gal of thermal volume with an ok boiler, that is simple enough for my other half to operate.
- be way better off than with a stove or hot air furnace.
- come in at 1/4 the cost of a full blown Froling 20/30 system with 400-800 gal.
- come in at 1/3 the cost of a Garn Jr.

Is it a risk?  Yes, but I am hoping with the improved design of the refurbished unit, proper plumbing & operation it will serve us well.

Maybe we don't hear about all the ones that work good, only the owners with issues that come to Hearth looking for answers?  Heck, even the dealer who I allmost bought a new one from, ran a 1st gen 100 in his pellet warehouse for 2 years with no issues.  I could of bought his unit for 500 less, but I chose the refurb unit with stainless liner instead.  Why did he have his unit for sale?  Not positive but maybe it had something to do with him disolving his business relationship with Pro-Fab.  My understanding is that his pellet and hot tub business is just dandy.


----------



## mikedbrrew

reog said:


> Just got involved with my installer over an internal leak in the boiler. Seem to be getting a good response so far from Profab, but I am wondering what sort of prorated cost others have had to pay to get their leaking boiler replaced with the newer model? They are looking for $3000 from me to get it shipped and installed.


Hi my name is Glen I also Have an Elite 100 which leaks and there is no way of fixing them like every one else I'm still trying to get satisfaction on a replacement they have an enhancement witch is half common steel and the bottom half is stainless steel now the new ones are all 304 stainless steel another change in less than 2 years. the product was great when it was working, same thing it is like they want you to buy another warranty and have know how long these will last and everyone I talked too before are no longer there except for Ben I'll keep checking on line for more postings


----------



## Fred61

Period!


----------



## treefrog359

mustash29 said:


> I have a very limited basement area, 14 x 16 and only 7.5 tall.  I can't knock out any walls to get big tanks in there because they are all load bearing with many things causing interference.
> 
> CT is Nazi like with OWB's.  My town building inspector absolutely refused to wrap his hands around the idea of an indoor gasser installed in an outbuilding next to or attached to the outside the house.  All he could understand is the OWB concept, which would have required a 4th flue approaching 45 feet high to clear the neighbor's roof peak.  When I discussed a Garn Jr installed inside of a shed / alcove addition to the house on a concrete slab, all he could understand is "you can't direct vent an OWB, you can't put and OWB next to or attached to the house, you can't put a wood burner in a garage."  The guy was soooo close minded.
> 
> When it is all said and done I should have:
> - 400 gal of thermal volume with an ok boiler, that is simple enough for my other half to operate.
> - be way better off than with a stove or hot air furnace.
> - come in at 1/4 the cost of a full blown Froling 20/30 system with 400-800 gal.
> - come in at 1/3 the cost of a Garn Jr.
> 
> Is it a risk?  Yes, but I am hoping with the improved design of the refurbished unit, proper plumbing & operation it will serve us well.
> 
> Maybe we don't hear about all the ones that work good, only the owners with issues that come to Hearth looking for answers?  Heck, even the dealer who I allmost bought a new one from, ran a 1st gen 100 in his pellet warehouse for 2 years with no issues.  I could of bought his unit for 500 less, but I chose the refurb unit with stainless liner instead.  Why did he have his unit for sale?  Not positive but maybe it had something to do with him disolving his business relationship with Pro-Fab.  My understanding is that his pellet and hot tub business is just dandy.


why don't you check in on Heatmaster G100 or G200 they can be installed indoors too. my G200 is 17% more efficient then my xt 200 via the epa rating


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## Deepwoodsman1972

And just like that Profab who makes all the Empyre boilers goes belly up, closing their doors and leaving everyone to fend for themselves with all the problems.   Don't buy one and good luck finding parts to fix any of them.   I'm on my third one, still having a few problems but hoping I can limp it along.

Horrible company to have dealt with, doesn't surprise me that they went under.


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