# Espresso machine



## Jan Pijpelink (Jul 20, 2019)

I think I am in the market for a new espresso machine. Semi automatic. Simple. Not spending $1000 or so.
Any recommendations?


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## Ashful (Jul 20, 2019)

When I was looking, I was aiming to keep the budget for the expresso machine closer to $600, as I was also trying to stay near $1000 while buying a spendy new grinder at the same time.  So my search basically came down to the two machines that have dominated this market for 20 years:

1.  Gaggia Classic
2.  Rancilio Silvia

The Gaggia has been the go-to machine by which all others are generally compared (and notably used in just about every darn "how to" expresso video ever made on YouTube), and while it's recently lost some of it's adoration overseas due to the new model they now sell in Europe, we still get the beloved old model here in the US of A.

I debated between these two machines for some time, but eventually went Gaggia, just on sheer popularity.  There are a million parts and well-documented mods out there for this machine, probably more than any other.

Both give you a full-size group head, completely interchangeable with any pro equipment, in a relatively inexpensive single-boiler.  Both lack a PID, which would be the next step up, if you're willing to spend more (eg. ECM Classika = $999.99).  But I'm convinced my taste buds wouldn't appreciate the extra coin for that.  Besides, if you want to get real geeky about it, you can easily temp surf the Gaggia (and likely the Silvia, as well).

I do wish I had a double boiler, and would be willing to spend money for the convenience of that long before any other "feature", but that puts you straight into $2000+ territory.  I'll deal with a little inconvenience for the one or two morningsper week I use


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## PaulOinMA (Jul 21, 2019)

Jan Pijpelink said:


> ... Not spending $1000 or so …



That got me curious about commercial machines., so I checked one of the three supply sites I have bookmarked.  Holy Moly! 

https://www.webstaurantstore.com/13977/cappuccino-espresso-machines.html


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## Ashful (Jul 21, 2019)

Many of the most popular Commercial machines run $7000+/-.


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## Jan Pijpelink (Jul 21, 2019)

Ashful said:


> When I was looking, I was aiming to keep the budget for the expresso machine closer to $600, as I was also trying to stay near $1000 while buying a spendy new grinder at the same time.  So my search basically came down to the two machines that have dominated this market for 20 years:
> 
> 1.  Gaggia Classic
> 2.  Rancilio Silvia
> ...


Thanks. Espresso is my daily drink, so it will be well used. I don't do milk, so those features are totally not important to me. I know about the brands you mentioned and I was already looking at those.


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## Ashful (Jul 21, 2019)

Jan Pijpelink said:


> Thanks. Espresso is my daily drink, so it will be well used. I don't do milk, so those features are totally not important to me. I know about the brands you mentioned and I was already looking at those.



If no milk, then I’d definitely go Gaggia, as the only complaint anyone ever lobs at this machine is the goofy frothing wand they ship with it.  It’s designed to be more forgiving for beginners, but anyone who really knows how to froth milk hates it. 

I just replaced the stock wand on my Gaggia a week after buying it, as many do with that machine.

Since you don’t do milk, there is absolutely no reason to invest in a double boiler, these semi auto single boilers are definitely the way to go.  The reason I only make time to use mine on weekends is because I do like a little milk (macchiato style, 2 oz shot with 1/2 oz milk), and switching the boiler temp, then bleeding back down, and the cleaning routine all make it a hassle.  That’s why I kinda want a double boiler.


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## Jan Pijpelink (Jul 21, 2019)

Ashful said:


> If no milk, then I’d definitely go Gaggia, as the only complaint anyone ever lobs at this machine is the goofy frothing wand they ship with it.  It’s designed to be more forgiving for beginners, but anyone who really knows how to froth milk hates it.
> 
> I just replaced the stock wand on my Gaggia a week after buying it, as many do with that machine.
> 
> Since you don’t do milk, there is absolutely no reason to invest in a double boiler, these semi auto single boilers are definitely the way to go.  The reason I only make time to use mine on weekends is because I do like a little milk (macchiato style, 2 oz shot with 1/2 oz milk), and switching the boiler temp, then bleeding back down, and the cleaning routine all make it a hassle.  That’s why I kinda want a double boiler.


I currently have a Saeco which I bought refurbished. A great machine with an active cup warmer. It shows some hick ups and considering the age (and it is a beginners machine) I consider a new on. Single boiler was all I am looking at. I also like Ascaso (from Spain) and the Breville Infuser looks nice too.


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## Ashful (Jul 21, 2019)

Jan Pijpelink said:


> I currently have a Saeco which I bought refurbished. A great machine with an active cup warmer. It shows some hick ups and considering the age (and it is a beginners machine) I consider a new on. Single boiler was all I am looking at. I also like Ascaso (from Spain) and the Breville Infuser looks nice too.



Do these machines both take standard pro 58mm portafilters?   I believe the Saeco does, but have never looked at the Ascaso or Infuser.  That would be an absolute minimum requirement, for me.

Also, do you plan on going all-out with a non-pressurize portafilter, or just running the pressurized rig for pre-ground coffee?   What grinder do you use?


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## Jan Pijpelink (Jul 21, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Do these machines both take standard pro 58mm portafilters?   I believe the Saeco does, but have never looked at the Ascaso or Infuser.  That would be an absolute minimum requirement, for me.
> 
> Also, do you plan on going all-out with a non-pressurize portafilter, or just running the pressurized rig for pre-ground coffee?   What grinder do you use?


I have a Capresso grinder, I roast my own beans. I use a non pressurized filter, of course. Ascaso has 58 mm filters. I also look at Capresso that comes standard with a bottomless filter which I really like.


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## Jan Pijpelink (Jul 22, 2019)

Ashful said:


> If no milk, then I’d definitely go Gaggia, as the only complaint anyone ever lobs at this machine is the goofy frothing wand they ship with it.  It’s designed to be more forgiving for beginners, but anyone who really knows how to froth milk hates it.
> 
> I just replaced the stock wand on my Gaggia a week after buying it, as many do with that machine.
> 
> Since you don’t do milk, there is absolutely no reason to invest in a double boiler, these semi auto single boilers are definitely the way to go.  The reason I only make time to use mine on weekends is because I do like a little milk (macchiato style, 2 oz shot with 1/2 oz milk), and switching the boiler temp, then bleeding back down, and the cleaning routine all make it a hassle.  That’s why I kinda want a double boiler.


Well, I just bought a refurbished Gaggia Classic PRO from Whole Latte Love for $375. This is the version with upgraded pump. Not bad IMO.


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## Ashful (Jul 22, 2019)

Jan Pijpelink said:


> Well, I just bought a refurbished Gaggia Classic PRO from Whole Latte Love for $375. This is the version with upgraded pump. Not bad IMO.


Yeah, that’s a solid machine, and probably $100 cheaper than new?  They didn’t have the “Pro” version back when I bought my classic, but it looks like it’s the regular Classic with the Silvia wand conversion.  I did that conversion on my own, so I guess mine is a “pro” now.  Gaggia apparently got the message, no one liked their goofy classic wand.


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## Jan Pijpelink (Jul 24, 2019)

It arrived a few hours ago.


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## Ashful (Jul 24, 2019)

Nice!  I think the switch configuration on yours is the newer model, which you may want to check.  I never looked into it, but there was something that really bothered the crap out of folks about that new model, when it was introduced in Europe.  I suspect they may have fixed it before releasing it in the States, as it was something unique to Euro energy conservation directives, but I just made sure I was still getting the old model when I ordered mine.


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## Jan Pijpelink (Jul 24, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Nice!  I think the switch configuration on yours is the newer model, which you may want to check.  I never looked into it, but there was something that really bothered the crap out of folks about that new model, when it was introduced in Europe.  I suspect they may have fixed it before releasing it in the States, as it was something unique to Euro energy conservation directives, but I just made sure I was still getting the old model when I ordered mine.


Correct, the EU versions have a 20 minute auto switch off function. It is in the manual, but my machine doesn't have that. Mine is the 2019 model with a 2019 serial number and manufacturing date. It says refurbished, but it looks brand spanking new.


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## Ashful (Jul 24, 2019)

Jan Pijpelink said:


> Correct, the EU versions have a 20 minute auto switch off function. It is in the manual, but my machine doesn't have that. Mine is the 2019 model with a 2019 serial number and manufacturing date. It says refurbished, but it looks brand spanking new.


Excellent!  So, when do you start dialing in your shot timing?


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## Jan Pijpelink (Jul 24, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Excellent!  So, when do you start dialing in your shot timing?


Tomorrow, playing with my grinder now to get the right setting while surfing to see if I can find another one for not too much. Maybe even a manual burr grinder.


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## Ashful (Jul 24, 2019)

Jan Pijpelink said:


> Tomorrow, playing with my grinder now to get the right setting while surfing to see if I can find another one for not too much. Maybe even a manual burr grinder.


I'm running a Baratza Virtuoso, which is a fantastic grinder, but I hate changing it back and forth between pour-over and expresso settings.  It is a PITA to clean all of the chaff out of it before my first expresso shot, and it's not super convenient for loading a portafilter from the output bin.  If you find a nice price on a proper expresso grinder, I might jump on it, too!

Of course, my wife is not past criticizing another appliance on the counter that has now become my coffee bar.


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## Jan Pijpelink (Jul 24, 2019)

Ashful said:


> I'm running a Baratza Virtuoso, which is a fantastic grinder, but I hate changing it back and forth between pour-over and expresso settings.  It is a PITA to clean all of the chaff out of it before my first expresso shot, and it's not super convenient for loading a portafilter from the output bin.  If you find a nice price on a proper expresso grinder, I might jump on it, too!
> 
> Of course, my wife is not past criticizing another appliance on the counter that has now become my coffee bar.


I just missed a Breville Smart Grinder Pro last night on Ebay. Could have gotten it for $100 (refurbished). They get excellent reviews.


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## Ashful (Jul 24, 2019)

I really don't know much about Breville, but their prices are so low that it makes me wonder if they can really be of sufficient quality for non-pressurized expresso grinds.  I've really only studied the Baratza line, and they have some fantastic options... but the prices!


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## Ashful (Jul 24, 2019)

Did a little looking at the Breville grinders I'm seeing for sale, and none appear to be flat burr, they're all conical designs.  Reviews elsewhere seem to indicate they're great for pour-over, probably not great for a dedicated expresso grinder.  None appear to be even as good as the Virtuoso I'm already running today.

Here's a nice flat burr machine, if you're just a finger skimmer, and don't care about exact dosing.  About $150 less than their most popular machine with timer-based dosing:

https://www.wholelattelove.com/products/ceado-e5p-electronic-coffee-grinder

Of course, the Baratza Sette 270 is $200 less, with dosing control... but then you're back into conicals.  The Sette has the 2-step macro/micro adjust, though... probably works well enough for home use, where heat is a non-issue.


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## Jan Pijpelink (Jul 25, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Did a little looking at the Breville grinders I'm seeing for sale, and none appear to be flat burr, they're all conical designs.  Reviews elsewhere seem to indicate they're great for pour-over, probably not great for a dedicated expresso grinder.  None appear to be even as good as the Virtuoso I'm already running today.
> 
> Here's a nice flat burr machine, if you're just a finger skimmer, and don't care about exact dosing.  About $150 less than their most popular machine with timer-based dosing:
> 
> ...


Depending who you ask, but many espresso "experts" say that flat burrs getting too hot and taking away flavor of the coffee. BTW, the Breville grinders seem to be excellent for espresso, according to coffeegeek.com and others.


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## Jan Pijpelink (Jul 25, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Did a little looking at the Breville grinders I'm seeing for sale, and none appear to be flat burr, they're all conical designs.  Reviews elsewhere seem to indicate they're great for pour-over, probably not great for a dedicated expresso grinder.  None appear to be even as good as the Virtuoso I'm already running today.
> 
> Here's a nice flat burr machine, if you're just a finger skimmer, and don't care about exact dosing.  About $150 less than their most popular machine with timer-based dosing:
> 
> ...


I am looking at a Virtuoso (refurb) for $176 and a Gaggia MDF (refurb) for $128.


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## Jan Pijpelink (Jul 26, 2019)

Ashful said:


> I'm running a Baratza Virtuoso, which is a fantastic grinder, but I hate changing it back and forth between pour-over and expresso settings.  It is a PITA to clean all of the chaff out of it before my first expresso shot, and it's not super convenient for loading a portafilter from the output bin.  If you find a nice price on a proper expresso grinder, I might jump on it, too!
> 
> Of course, my wife is not past criticizing another appliance on the counter that has now become my coffee bar.


Just bought a refurbished Baratza Sette 30 with a full year warranty directly from their web site.


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## Ashful (Jul 26, 2019)

Jan Pijpelink said:


> Just bought a refurbished Baratza Sette 30 with a full year warranty directly from their web site.


Nice!  I was looking at the Sette 270 the other night.  Great machines, and this might sound stupid, but I just hate the way they'd look on my counter.  They look like they'd be at home in a modern Euro kitchen, but they just can't fit in this old American house:


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## Ashful (Jul 26, 2019)

Here's a little review on the Sette 270:



The other one I've been looking at is the Rancilio Rocky... maybe the most popular flat burr for home.  But reviews are mixed... not all good.


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## Jan Pijpelink (Jul 26, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Here's a little review on the Sette 270:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Looked at all the reviews. For days and hours. Decided to go with the Sette 30, seems to pair excellent with the Classic.

My set up is downstairs in my "office", as I am the only one in the house drinking coffee. So countertop issues in our "modern" European interior are not existent.


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## Ashful (Jul 26, 2019)

Let me know how you like it, when you get a few doses thru it!


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## Jan Pijpelink (Jul 26, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Let me know how you like it, when you get a few doses thru it!


Will do. BTW you can buy an adapter ring for micro setting so you can make a Sette 30 into a Sette 270. Only $90.


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## Ashful (Jul 26, 2019)

One huge advantage of the Sette, even over much more expensive machines like the Vario, is the super low grounds retention. That’s huge for a weekend user like me, not having to clean it out, or having stale grinds in there for a week.


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## Jan Pijpelink (Jul 26, 2019)

Ashful said:


> One huge advantage of the Sette, even over much more expensive machines like the Vario, is the super low grounds retention. That’s huge for a weekend user like me, not having to clean it out, or having stale grinds in there for a week.


Absolutely, the short distance the grinds take makes a huge difference. Also, for cleaning, it is very easy to remove the lower burr and there is nothing else there. The horizontal motor shaft is a huge improvement compared to other grinders, specially for cleaning. I can't hardly wait till it's here. I will make some pictures of shots I made and even post a short video, if I can find out how to do that (I am of the typewriter and telex generation).


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## Jan Pijpelink (Jul 26, 2019)

Ashful said:


> One huge advantage of the Sette, even over much more expensive machines like the Vario, is the super low grounds retention. That’s huge for a weekend user like me, not having to clean it out, or having stale grinds in there for a week.


https://www.baratza.com/product/sette-270-270w-adjustment-assembly/


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## Ashful (Jul 27, 2019)

Jan Pijpelink said:


> https://www.baratza.com/product/sette-270-270w-adjustment-assembly/


Looks like a good way to save $50, but do note there is more than a micro-adjust separating these two grinders:

Sette 30:
30 coarse settings, no micro adjust
Plastic burr casing with some static-cling issues
One programmable grind setting
Plastic portafilter holder
Non-adjustable forks, they must be removed and reversed when changing from portafilter to brew bin or to set for different portafilter diameters

Sette 270:
270 settings (30 coarse x 9 fine)
Metal burr casing, more durable and resolves static cling issues
Three programmable grind settings
Metal portafilter forks, which can be adjusted without removal

Most of these things probably won’t matter to you, you’re only doing espresso, probably always doing the same 17g double shot grind.  So one programmable setting, and the non-adjustable forks are probably a non-issue.  We will have to see how the plastic burr casing works for you after a few years, I am not sure how seriously to take some of the reviews that complain about this.

But the coarse/fine settings issue is an absolute problem, I think.  In fact, this has been an issue with my Virtuoso with stepped settings.  I often find one setting is too fast and the other too slow in my unpressurized portafilter.  By the time I upgrade a 30 with the micro rig, I’m within less than $50 of just buying the 270 with the other upgrades.  Since I might want to switch between portafilter and bin (maybe ditch the Virtuoso down the road), the adjustable forks and three programs would be where I’d want to go.  I guess that’s why they make so many options!

My only issue with this series is the stupid profile.  It looks like it must stick damn near a foot out from the wall, and I really just prefer the vertically-oriented grinders, and the counterspace they conserve.  There’s no reason they couldn’t have built the same spinning outer burr with a vertical motor behind the portafilter holder, but they want to be stylish Europeans, so they made this stupid looking “Sette” (7 in Italian) profile.  I guess I’m just too traditional.


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## Jan Pijpelink (Jul 27, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Looks like a good way to save $50, but do note there is more than a micro-adjust separating these two grinders:
> 
> Sette 30:
> 30 coarse settings, no micro adjust
> ...


I bought a refurbished 30 for $179. With the $90 for the ring, I am still $130 below a 270 with program features I do not need. I only drink espresso, so all the other grind settings are wasted on me.


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## begreen (Jul 27, 2019)

Very nice, looks like it is designed and engineered in Seattle, WA. Our old Braun coffee grinder is of similar design, (straight-thru, vertical transport, but with flat burrs), in a simpler more compact package.


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## Ashful (Jul 27, 2019)

Jan Pijpelink said:


> I bought a refurbished 30 for $179. With the $90 for the ring, I am still $130 below a 270 with program features I do not need. I only drink espresso, so all the other grind settings are wasted on me.



Definitely.  If only doing one shot size, no switching from portafilter, and with the micro upgrade pricing, it becomes harder to justify the 270.  Out situations are different, there.


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## Jan Pijpelink (Jul 27, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Definitely.  If only doing one shot size, no switching from portafilter, and with the micro upgrade pricing, it becomes harder to justify the 270.  Out situations are different, there.


The only thing I might want to do is buying a bottomless portafilter. Time will tell.


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## Ashful (Jul 27, 2019)

Jan Pijpelink said:


> The only thing I might want to do is buying a bottomless portafilter. Time will tell.



Never looked into those, in fact I need to go watch some videos on them this week, and learn what they are.  I have only ever used the standard dual spout unpressurized portafilters.


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## Jan Pijpelink (Jul 27, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Never looked into those, in fact I need to go watch some videos on them this week, and learn what they are.  I have only ever used the standard dual spout unpressurized portafilters.


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## Ashful (Jul 27, 2019)

Exactly as I had pictured it in my mind.  

I assume the primary advantage is for those doing straight shots, and wanting a higher ratio of crema?

I enjoy a straight espresso on occasion, but more often I'm doing a macchiato (for me) or latte (for my wife).  A macchiato is just a straight espresso double shot in a 2.5 or 3 oz. expresso cup, topped up with just a bit (0.5 to 1.0 oz.) of steamed milk.  It gives the straight shot just the right amount of sweetness, for me, but it means I'm messing with the crema and switching my single-boiler machine over to steam mode.


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## Ashful (Jul 28, 2019)

Here’s something I don’t get.  The Vario is a pro-grade ceramic flat burr grinder, the second most expensive model in their entire catalog.  It comes with a portafilter holder, yet Baratza ranks the much less expensive prosumer-grade steel conical burr Sette as better for espresso.  Then comparing the Vario to the Forte, I’m beginning to think this is just marketing BS, Baratza trying to create some false separation of their Sette line, to help them stay in the consumer pricing game.  Check this out:





The pass-thru burr with ultra-low grinds retention is the only plausible advantage of the Sette 270 over the Vario, so you would say maybe that could be the distinction.  But then the manufacturer ranks their Forte at 5 stars, and it’s exactly the same tech as the Vario.  It just doesn’t add up, when comparing the two to the Sette.


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## Jan Pijpelink (Jul 28, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Here’s something I don’t get.  The Vario is a pro-grade ceramic flat burr grinder, the second most expensive model in their entire catalog.  It comes with a portafilter holder, yet Baratza ranks the much less expensive prosumer-grade steel conical burr Sette as better for espresso.  Then comparing the Vario to the Forte, I’m beginning to think this is just marketing BS, Baratza trying to create some false separation of their Sette line, to help them stay in the consumer pricing game.  Check this out:
> 
> View attachment 245994
> 
> ...


Yes, I have seen that too. Weird.


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## Highbeam (Jul 28, 2019)

Makes my giant Costco jar of Folgers instant coffee granules at the office seem childish! I use a metal spoon!


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## begreen (Jul 28, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> Makes my giant Costco jar of Folgers instant coffee granules at the office seem childish! I use a metal spoon!


LOL. Do you eat them right off the spoon? j/k


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## Ashful (Jul 28, 2019)

Jan Pijpelink said:


> Yes, I have seen that too. Weird.



I wonder if the portafilter holder on the Vario doesn’t work as well, or something like that, to justify the rating.  Small stuff can matter, when you’re using it every day for two decades.

Otherwise, I’m going to just chalk it up to their marketing folks wanting to create some market distinction for the Sette products.


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## AlbergSteve (Jul 28, 2019)

Jan Pijpelink said:


>



This is one of my favorite videos! I'm easily entertained...


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## AlbergSteve (Jul 28, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Exactly as I had pictured it in my mind.
> 
> I assume the primary advantage is for those doing straight shots, and wanting a higher ratio of crema?
> 
> I enjoy a straight espresso on occasion, but more often I'm doing a macchiato (for me) or latte (for my wife).  A macchiato is just a straight espresso double shot in a 2.5 or 3 oz. expresso cup, topped up with just a bit (0.5 to 1.0 oz.) of steamed milk.  It gives the straight shot just the right amount of sweetness, for me, but it means I'm messing with the crema and switching my single-boiler machine over to steam mode.


Most use the bottomless filter for troubleshooting and dialing in their shots.


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## AlbergSteve (Jul 28, 2019)

Ashful said:


> One huge advantage of the Sette, even over much more expensive machines like the Vario, is the super low grounds retention. That’s huge for a weekend user like me, not having to clean it out, or having stale grinds in there for a week.


My only complaint with the Rocky is the teaspoon of grounds retained just above the spout.


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## AlbergSteve (Jul 28, 2019)

Jan Pijpelink said:


> It arrived a few hours ago.


Nice looking machine and looks way more compact than the Silvia.


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## Jan Pijpelink (Jul 28, 2019)

AlbergSteve said:


> This is one of my favorite videos! I'm easily entertained...


Gonna be my next purchase.


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## Ashful (Jul 31, 2019)




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## Jan Pijpelink (Jul 31, 2019)

Ashful said:


>



Seen reviews where the Sette 30 is a good match for the Gaggia Classic or Silvia with unpressurized filter.


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## Ashful (Jul 31, 2019)

Jan Pijpelink said:


> Seen reviews where the Sette 30 is a good match for the Gaggia Classic or Silvia with unpressurized filter.


Oh, I'm not saying it's not.  I was watching the review more for the Vario, and the other prosumer espresso-specific grinder recommendations later in the video, hadn't really been watching for the Sette 30 part of the review.

I'm sure the Sette is a great machine, although based on my experience trying to brew unpressurized with the Virtuoso, I'd definitely be doing the micro ring upgrade on the 30.  With the Virtuoso (40 steps for 200 - 1400 um), I often find that one step is too coarse and fast , while the very next step down is way too fine and slow.  The Sette 30 has a narrower 230 - 950 um range, so those 30 steps are actually a bit finer than the Virtuoso (24 vs 30 um/step), which may be enough to find a grind setting that hits your shot timing.  Of course, the micro ring gets you to resolution better than 3 um/step, it's damn near as good as stepless at that point.

With most beans, I can adjust my tamping pressure reliably enough to get reasonable shot timing with the Virtuoso, but it is a hokey process.  Most want to just press very hard for easiest consistency, and adjust the grind to suit.  Someday I'll pick a grinder that gets me there, right now I'm just trying to learn when I can find a few spare minutes, here and there.


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## Jan Pijpelink (Aug 1, 2019)

When I get the Sette 30 in, I will post a detailed review with pictures of my pour.


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## Ashful (Aug 1, 2019)

Jan Pijpelink said:


> When I get the Sette 30 in, I will post a detailed review with pictures of my pour.


Cool!  I’m interested to see if you’re able to nail consistent 20 - 25 shot times with various beans, and if the claimed static issues due to the plastic burr housing are real (over time).  Those are the only two points that would push me from the 30 to the 270, and I suspect the static thing is probably over-hyped in the few reviews that mention it.  Of course, I also don’t like the footprint of any of the Sette models, but one can get over that.

I’m all-in, at this point, I _will _be buying an espresso-specific grinder.  It’s your fault, too... I probably could have stalled on this expense awhile longer, before you got me watching review videos.  [emoji14]


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## Ashful (Aug 8, 2019)

Trigger pulled:  Sette 270 scheduled for delivery.  This is your fault!

How's your Sette working out for you?  Already itching for the micro ring?!?  

Something I did't realize when I first saw it, the micro ring is stepless!


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## Jan Pijpelink (Aug 8, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Trigger pulled:  Sette 270 scheduled for delivery.  This is your fault!
> 
> How's your Sette working out for you?  Already itching for the micro ring?!?
> 
> Something I did't realize when I first saw it, the micro ring is stepless!


Just got back from a 3-day business trip in @bholler country. Played a bit tonight. I will post something tomorrow. Bottomless portafilter has been ordered.


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## Ashful (Aug 9, 2019)

@bholler is up near Potter County somewhere, right?


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## Jan Pijpelink (Aug 9, 2019)

Everything west of Philly or east of P'burgh is central PA to me.


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## bholler (Aug 9, 2019)

Ashful said:


> @bholler is up near Potter County somewhere, right?


Nope Snyder county.  Pretty close to the center of the state


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## Jan Pijpelink (Aug 9, 2019)

bholler said:


> Nope Snyder county.  Pretty close to the center of the state


Just came back from Bellefonte yesterday. Company HQ is there.


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## bholler (Aug 9, 2019)

Jan Pijpelink said:


> Just came back from Bellefonte yesterday. Company HQ is there.


That's 45 mins or so from me not to far


----------



## Ashful (Aug 9, 2019)

Jan Pijpelink said:


> Everything west of Philly or east of P'burgh is central PA to me.



Funny, I call that area “Alabama”.  You know, “Pennsylvania is Philly and Pittsburg, with Alabama in-between.”

Sorry, bholler.  [emoji3]


----------



## Jan Pijpelink (Aug 9, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Funny, I call that area “Alabama”.  You know, “Pennsylvania is Philly and Pittsburg, with Alabama in-between.”
> 
> Sorry, bholler.  [emoji3]


That is exactly what people from Philly tell me. I wanted to post it, but I did not want to offend anybody.


----------



## Ashful (Aug 9, 2019)

Jan Pijpelink said:


> That is exactly what people from Philly tell me. I wanted to post it, but I did not want to offend anybody.



I suspect bholler is not easily offended, so I took a chance!


----------



## Jan Pijpelink (Aug 9, 2019)

Well, here is my "review" of the Sette 30 grinder, FWIW.

1. It is a well built machine, not too heavy, not too light.
2. It is not as loud as I have read in reviews on the interwebs.
3. The instruction sheet mentions to use a setting between 7 and 10 for espresso.
4. I have been playing with settings from 11 to 15; conclusion 11 is the absolute best for the Gaggia Classic Pro. Everything lower than 11 chokes the Gaggia.
5. It takes 4.2 seconds to grind 18 grams beans. My beans are Costa Rica and home roasted medium dark, not even close to French roast.
6. The grind setting will depend on the type bean used and how dark they have been roasted.
7. With a firm tamp (non calibrated) it takes the Gaggia 26 seconds to pour a 2 ounce espresso, see picture. Pretty good IMO.
8. For now I see no need for the micro setting ring. Maybe when I ever upgrade to a $1,500 espresso machine, but that is very unlikely.
9. Excellent investment.
10. I will post more after the bottomless portafilter has arrived.


----------



## Ashful (Aug 9, 2019)

Nice.  Not sure I follow your #4, though.  Usually pressurized portafilters are aimed at letting you use a coarser grind.

On the grind setting, I’ve seen that Baratza is just all over the map.  I am also operating my Virtuoso nowhere near their recommended starting point, to hit my 22 second shot times.  They must not have a very consistent way of calibrating these at the factory.

My issue with the Virtuoso, and it’s aforementioned fairly large step sizes, is that some beans require a grind that’s between two settings.  The step size on the Sette is almost half that of the Virtuoso, so maybe you’ll find a setting close enough, with any bean.


----------



## Jan Pijpelink (Aug 9, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Nice.  Not sure I follow your #4, though.  Usually pressurized portafilters are aimed at letting you use a coarser grind, not finer.
> 
> On the grind setting, I’ve seen that Baratza is just all over the map.  I am also operating my Virtuoso nowhere near their recommended starting point, to hit my 22 second shot times.  They must not have a very consistent way of calibrating these at the factory.
> 
> My issue with the Virtuoso, and it’s aforementioned fairly large step sizes, is that some beans require a grind that’s between two settings.  The step size on the Sette is almost half that of the Virtuoso, so maybe you’ll find a setting close enough, with any bean.


You're correct, ignore comment 4. Comment 4 edited.


----------



## Ashful (Aug 9, 2019)

You roast your own, if I recall?  I’m currently buying my beans roasted.


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## Jan Pijpelink (Aug 9, 2019)

Ashful said:


> You roast your own, if I recall?  I’m currently buying my beans roasted.


Yes, I bought a little roaster. I roast 2-3 times a week. Takes 8 minutes.


----------



## Ashful (Aug 10, 2019)

Getting a bit crowded, may need to rearrange.


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## Jan Pijpelink (Aug 10, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Getting a bit crowded, may need to rearrange.
> 
> View attachment 246345


Nice.


----------



## Jan Pijpelink (Aug 10, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Getting a bit crowded, may need to rearrange.
> 
> View attachment 246345


Any results yet?


----------



## Jan Pijpelink (Aug 11, 2019)

Pretty happy with my new set up.


----------



## Ashful (Aug 11, 2019)

Jan Pijpelink said:


> Any results yet?



Gave it a whirl this morning.  Jammed the espresso machine several times, working up from Baratza’s recommended starting point (9E) to something close to my correct shot timing (15F, or something close to that, can’t remember now).

At finer grinds, it works great, but by the time I got to where it’s hitting my shot time (1.1 oz weight at 22 sec) it’s tossing grounds all over the counter.  Not happy about that.  I’ll play with it another day or two, but if I can’t grind into a portafiler without making a mess to clean up, I may just send it back.  

Here’s my counter after just just one fill of the portafilter.  You can’t really see all of it in the photo, it’s quite a mess to be cleaning up several times per day.


----------



## Ashful (Aug 11, 2019)

I’m going to borrow a buddy’s pressure testing rig, see if my Gaggia pump pressure is correct.  Might also shop for a grinds screen.  I’m wondering if I have to run coarser than I should to hit my shot timing.  I’m aiming for 1.1 oz shot weight from 0.56 oz of grounds in 20-25 seconds.


----------



## Jan Pijpelink (Aug 11, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Gave it a whirl this morning.  Jammed the espresso machine several times, working up from Baratza’s recommended starting point (9E) to something close to my correct shot timing (15F, or something close to that, can’t remember now).
> 
> At finer grinds, it works great, but by the time I got to where it’s hitting my shot time (1.1 oz weight at 22 sec) it’s tossing grounds all over the counter.  Not happy about that.  I’ll play with it another day or two, but if I can’t grind into a portafiler without making a mess to clean up, I may just send it back.
> 
> ...


I grind directly in my portafilter and have no mess like I see in your picture, not even close.


----------



## Ashful (Aug 11, 2019)

Jan Pijpelink said:


> I grind directly in my portafilter and have no mess like I see in your picture, not even close.



That’s another data point that makes me think I’m grinding too coarse.  This machine is clean on a finer setting, but that seems to jam my Gaggia.  Something is not right in my rig.

Do me a favor, and next time you meter a shot, tare the glass and and then weigh the shot.  I want to see if you’re hitting 2:1 by weight, with that no-mess grind setting.


----------



## Jan Pijpelink (Aug 11, 2019)

I have weighed my shots for a few days. 18 grams beans to 35-36 grams espresso in 23-26 seconds. Depending on the tamp.


----------



## Ashful (Aug 11, 2019)

Jan Pijpelink said:


> I have weighed my shots for a few days. 18 grams beans to 35-36 grams espresso in 23-26 seconds. Depending on the tamp.


Sounds perfect.  Once I get mine dialed in a little closer, I'm going to take some of my grinds to a buddy at work, who is completely OCD about weighing and timing every shot.  We'll see what he gets on my grinds.  Given the mess they're making of my pantry, I think they're likely coarser than yours, but it's what I need to hit shot timing on this machine.  Something isn't right, I need to start eliminating variables.


----------



## Jan Pijpelink (Aug 14, 2019)

Just received the bottomless portafilter. Here is my first pull. Not perfect, but not too bad either. Needs a firmer tamp.


----------



## Ashful (Aug 14, 2019)

Cool.  I’ll have to watch it when I get home, it’s not loading from where I am now.

I believe I found the cause of my grind coarseness issue, stay tuned for a report, once I’ve had a chance to prove the theory.  Ran out of the beans I typically use in this machine, waiting on a new shipment, as changing beans won’t help with simplification of the results.


----------



## Jan Pijpelink (Aug 14, 2019)

Just did another experiment.
Sette on setting 11.
4.40 seconds gave me 17 grams coffee
did the paperclip procedure
very firm tamp
naked portafilter
23 seconds gave me 40 grams espresso (a bit too fast); excellent flavor, at least for me.
no channeling in the pull, so no mess

still working on it.


----------



## Ashful (Aug 14, 2019)

I’m having variability issues.  Not sure what the problem is.  Will post some data shortly.


----------



## Jan Pijpelink (Aug 14, 2019)

Ashful said:


> I’m having variability issues.  Not sure what the problem is.  Will post some data shortly.


When you change grind settings, do you do that while the motor is running? That is recommended. To avoid jamming.


----------



## Ashful (Aug 15, 2019)

Jan Pijpelink said:


> When you change grind settings, do you do that while the motor is running? That is recommended. To avoid jamming.


Yep, that wasn't the issue.  I think I have two very big problems:

1.  I'm trying to hit a specific shot weight (1.1 oz. shot from 0.56 oz. grounds, perfect 2:1 by weight) on a 22 second timed extraction.  I'm not sure this is a realistic goal, it may be better to extract a 1.1 oz. weighed shot, and just see if I can hit the magic 20 - 25 second window.  This is because the pour rate is much higher at the end of the shot than at the beginning, just a second or three foregiveness can make a big difference in shot volume.  I originally chose to do volume per time, because it's so much easier than trying to jam a scale under the shot glass on the machine.

2.  I am having issues with getting repeatable measurements of my 18 oz. portafilter and holder.  I am trying to measure a 0.56 oz. fill on an 18 oz. hunk of metal, the coffee is only 3% of the weight I'm measuring.  If the scale is ±1% accurate, then my coffee charge is varying by 33%.  I also found that the position of the portafilter on the scale makes a difference of a few %, enough to throw huge inaccuracy into the actual coffee weight measurement.  This position issue, and later resolving it, is the difference between the "accurate" data points and the earlier "questionable" data points.

There are probably a half dozen other smaller problems with my consistency, but these are the big'uns I see.  That said, here is the summary of the data I collected:







So, ignoring the "questionable" data for a moment, and just focusing on the "accurate" data, note that I got a shot size of 1.73 on a grind setting of 14i (=14.89), so I turned the micro ring down to 14f (=14.56) and my shot got heavier!  Knowing that couldn't be right, I turned it down one more micro setting to 14e (=14.44), and got a too-small 0.83 oz. shot.  WTF?

Somewhere in there, I also did two more shots at 14d (=14.33) and got weights of 1.13 and 1.56 oz., not exactly super-consistent.

The trend line is pointing toward a 14b grind setting, but I never got there, I ran out of the bean I was using.

Earlier, during the "questionable" measurements, I started off with a bunch of shots that were a bit too small (0.7 - 0.9 oz. at 22 seconds).  Since the micro ring was already as coarse as I could go in the 13's, I clicked the macro ring once to 14i, and pulled a 22 second shot that came in at 0.4 oz!  That made no sense, I should be getting bigger shots on the same timing, with the coarser grind.  Thinking I must've screwed up, I pulled a second, and it came in at 2.3 oz., almost 6x the first.  I decided to do a third on this same setting, and it came in at 0.7 oz, still smaller than the shots I was pulling on the finer 13i grind.

I'm not sure what could be causing this.  I have three more bags of beans (at $14/ea!) coming tomorrow or Friday, and will experiment further.  I'm thinking of changing to just pulling by weight, even though it's a complete PITA, and just ensuring it lands in the 20-25 second window.  I may also pull some shots with the Virtuoso grinder, to verify I can still do consistent shots with that, I believe I could before.


----------



## Jan Pijpelink (Aug 15, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Yep, that wasn't the issue.  I think I have two very big problems:
> 
> 1.  I'm trying to hit a specific shot weight (1.1 oz. shot from 0.56 oz. grounds, perfect 2:1 by weight) on a 22 second timed extraction.  I'm not sure this is a realistic goal, it may be better to extract a 1.1 oz. weighed shot, and just see if I can hit the magic 20 - 25 second window.  This is because the pour rate is much higher at the end of the shot than at the beginning, just a second or three foregiveness can make a big difference in shot volume.  I originally chose to do volume per time, because it's so much easier than trying to jam a scale under the shot glass on the machine.
> 
> ...


Does your scale has a gram setting? If so, you might want to try that. IMO much more accurate.


----------



## Ashful (Aug 15, 2019)

Jan Pijpelink said:


> Does your scale has a gram setting? If so, you might want to try that. IMO much more accurate.



Yes, it has a grams setting, but accuracy is not affected by units selection.  The number of reported units automatically adjusts to the accuracy of the scale, x.x grams vs x.xxx oz., with that last digit being 0 or 5.  So, not that it matters, but I can actually report down to .14 gram increments when I work in oz.

I can convert to grams on the graphs, if you can’t convert in your head, but that won’t fix my repeatability issues.  [emoji14]

 It’s that shot weight is pretty consistent when grind size is smaller, and goes haywire when grind is coarser.


----------



## Jan Pijpelink (Aug 15, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Yes, it has a grams setting, but accuracy is not affected by units selection.  The number of reported units automatically adjusts to the accuracy of the scale, x.x grams vs x.xxx oz., with that last digit being 0 or 5.  So, not that it matters, but I can actually report down to .14 gram increments when I work in oz.
> 
> I can convert to grams on the graphs, if you can’t convert in your head, but that won’t fix my repeatability issues.  [emoji14]
> 
> It’s that shot weight is pretty consistent when grind size is smaller, and goes haywire when grind is coarser.


Maybe I missed something, but if you have found a setting that is getting you a good 1:2 ratio espresso (with that fancy micro-ring), why are you still playing around with other settings? Are you changing brew technique that often?


----------



## Jan Pijpelink (Aug 15, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Yep, that wasn't the issue.  I think I have two very big problems:
> 
> 1.  I'm trying to hit a specific shot weight (1.1 oz. shot from 0.56 oz. grounds, perfect 2:1 by weight) on a 22 second timed extraction.  I'm not sure this is a realistic goal, it may be better to extract a 1.1 oz. weighed shot, and just see if I can hit the magic 20 - 25 second window.  This is because the pour rate is much higher at the end of the shot than at the beginning, just a second or three foregiveness can make a big difference in shot volume.  I originally chose to do volume per time, because it's so much easier than trying to jam a scale under the shot glass on the machine.
> 
> ...


What a lot of people seem to do is weighing just the empty basket and weighing the basket filled. You don't have to deal with the excessive weight of the portafilter. A bit of a hassle, but worth to try.


----------



## Jan Pijpelink (Aug 15, 2019)

As an alternative, at least till you figured everything out in theory (and on paper), switch to beer!


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## Ashful (Aug 15, 2019)

Jan Pijpelink said:


> What a lot of people seem to do is weighing just the empty basket and weighing the basket filled. You don't have to deal with the excessive weight of the portafilter. A bit of a hassle, but worth to try.



Yeah, I was thinking about this, myself.  I don’t think I’d be able to pop the basket in and out of the portafilter holder without losing grounds or popping the puck loose, but perhaps if I pull out the wire bale that makes it a snap-fit, I could get away with this.

Of course, then I’ll be tossing the basket across the room, every time I instinctively swing it toward the knock box.  [emoji3]


----------



## Ashful (Aug 15, 2019)

Jan Pijpelink said:


> Maybe I missed something, but if you have found a setting that is getting you a good 1:2 ratio espresso (with that fancy micro-ring), why are you still playing around with other settings? Are you changing brew technique that often?



I probably didn’t do a great job of explaining the situation.  Using the Virtuoso grinder, I had previously dialed it in for various beans to hit my 2:1 by weight, and land within the 20 - 25 second extraction window (from first drop, not counting pre-infusion).  However, this is the first time I tried doing it in reverse, just running the machine for 22 seconds beyond the first drop, and weighing the shot.

I think there are a few things that have confounded me:

1.  The first time I collected data, I started at their recommended grind setting, and completely jammed up the portafilter with a too-fine grind.  Even though I knocked out that soaked puck and wiped it out real well, I think the portafilter was partially clogged after that, making all of my shots too slow, and forcing me toward a too-coarse grind.

2.  For the next attempt, I cleaned everything real well, but I had not yet realized the issue of subtracting the weight of the empty portafilter from the loaded one was causing me to have varying amounts of coffee in the basket.  This was likely impacting shot time, and causing some of the apparently-random results.

3.  At coarser grind settings (eg. Above 13), I think the Sette does a pretty poor job at consistently.  Definitely worse than the Virtuoso, at these coarser settings.  This is also causing some of the randomness.

4.  Because the pour starts slow and finishes less slow, just a few seconds at the end of the pour can make a big difference in shot size.  This is okay, I shouldn’t really be aiming to get a 22 second shot, I should be aiming to get 2:1 by weight, and just making sure it’s not a shorter than 20 second or longer than 25 second extraction.

More beans on the way.  Next time, I think I’ll just pour 2 fl.oz. shots, and time and weight them.  This will get me near ideal, without having to balance a scale under the shot glass on the machine.  Once I get close to the ideal grind, then I can adjust that, as 2 fl.oz. does not always yield the true 1.1 oz. (31.2g) weight target.


----------



## Jan Pijpelink (Aug 15, 2019)

Ashful said:


> I probably didn’t do a great job of explaining the situation.  Using the Virtuoso grinder, I had previously dialed it in for various beans to hit my 2:1 by weight, and land within the 20 - 25 second extraction window (from first drop, not counting pre-infusion).  However, this is the first time I tried doing it in reverse, just running the machine for 22 seconds beyond the first drop, and weighing the shot.
> 
> I think there are a few things that have confounded me:
> 
> ...


Pulling shots on volume and then weigh them is what I would do.

As for clogging, I always rinse my portafilter in the sink with hot water after every use.


----------



## Ashful (Aug 15, 2019)

Jan Pijpelink said:


> I always rinse my portafilter in the sink with hot water after every use.



I started doing that, last night.  Because I never know if my water is as hot as I’d like it to be, I had been previously just washing it when I shut down the machine at the end of the day, and only wiping it clean between shots.


----------



## Jan Pijpelink (Aug 15, 2019)

Ashful said:


> I started doing that, last night.  Because I never know if my water is as hot as I’d like it to be, I had been previously just washing it when I shut down the machine at the end of the day, and only wiping it clean between shots.


When I rinse after every shot, I see grounds coming out from the bottom of the basket, now that I have a naked portafilter. You won't see that with a regular filter. It will build up after a few shots.


----------



## Jan Pijpelink (Aug 15, 2019)

And I think that is also why SB coffee is so bad. They pull hundreds of shots per day without rinsing the basket, horrible taste.


----------



## Ashful (Aug 15, 2019)

Jan Pijpelink said:


> And I think that is also why SB coffee is so bad. They pull hundreds of shots per day without rinsing the basket, horrible taste.



There’s about a dozen things I don’t understand about Stabucks, not the least of which is how they make a 12 or 16 oz latte from a 0.5 oz portafilter basket.


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## Jan Pijpelink (Aug 15, 2019)

What kind of cup do you use for espresso?


----------



## Ashful (Aug 15, 2019)

Success tonight.  Perfectly consistent shots at 22.5 seconds, four in a row.  Full story at 11pm. 

Espresso and macchiato:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06X8ZHFSL/?tag=hearthamazon-20

Latte and cappuccino:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B073W8BGC1/?tag=hearthamazon-20


----------



## Jan Pijpelink (Aug 15, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Success tonight.  Perfectly consistent shots at 22.5 seconds, four in a row.  Full story at 11pm.
> 
> Espresso and macchiato:
> 
> ...


It's 11:08!


----------



## AlbergSteve (Aug 15, 2019)

Jan Pijpelink said:


> It's 11:08!


Boy, you guys are in to it deep...


----------



## Jan Pijpelink (Aug 15, 2019)

AlbergSteve said:


> Boy, you guys are in to it deep...


He said 11 PM, it is now 11:32! He needs to rethink his priorities!


----------



## Ashful (Aug 16, 2019)

Jan Pijpelink said:


> It's 11:08!


Spoken like a man who's had a few espressos.  ;-)

Okay, things I changed:

1.  My usual beans came in, so I was able to switch back to those.  Yesterday's experiments were with a substitute bean from the same roaster, but not the usual bean, as I had run out.

2.  I ground into a small frothing pitcher, as it was easier to get an accurate grounds weight from this.  Then I'd pour into the portafilter, tap, and tamp, before loading into the machine.

3.  Thoroughly rinsing portafilter with hot water between each run.

I started at 13E, where I had previously left off with this particular bean, and metered 0.56 oz. (16g) into the portafilter.  After leveling (tapping techinique) and tamping, it looked like this:





I pulled a 2 fl.oz. shot in 25 seconds, and weighed it at 1.265 oz., or 2.26:1 ratio.  Here it is, after just a few seconds settling, but it appears to be all heart and crema, little body:




Ironically, if I had stopped at 22 seconds, as I had been doing yesterday, it would have been a perfect 2:1 at 1.10 oz.

After the shot, my puck looked like this:




I pulled four more shots, and although I find liquid volume measure (fl.oz.) to be horribly inaccurate, they were all hitting 2:1 between 21.5 seconds and 22.6 seconds.

Successes:

1.  I am finally getting consistency.

2.  My grinder is running at 13E, where it's not throwing the mess I showed previously happening in the 14's.

3.  I can hit perfect 2:1's by weight, at an ideal 22 seconds.

Remaining issues:

1.  I don't think my shots always look that fantastic.  The one in the photo above may be the poorest of those I pulled today, but I didn't think to get photos of the others.  My timing, between loading the filled portafilter into the machine, logging weights and various other data, and making sure everything was clean and dry for every run, may mean I was baking the puck for a few minutes before pulling the shot.  Probably not a great scenario, and maybe the entire issue.

2.  Determining the actual ideal fill for my portafilter basket.  I just went .56 oz. (16g), because I've seen others (youtube) using this baseline.  I need to learn the best method for finding the ideal fill.


----------



## Jan Pijpelink (Aug 16, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Spoken like a man who's had a few espressos.  ;-)
> 
> Okay, things I changed:
> 
> ...



Well, I am glad you finally replied, you are over an hour late!

It looks better. Having a wet puck seems not to be an issue as I have read on several forums. I have wet pucks too every now and then.
Glad to see you indicate the metric system, finally.

Have you tried the weighing of the basket empty and filled without the portafilter?

I have 1 (I think) issue left; still working on the amount of coffee to grind in the naked portafilter to get a decent shot in about 24 seconds. It is still going too fast. It is either the amount of coffee or my tamp pressure. These may be 2 issues instead of 1.

Question to you is: having all these experiments done, how is the taste and mouthfeel? That's all that counts.


----------



## Ashful (Aug 16, 2019)

Jan Pijpelink said:


> Well, I am glad you finally replied, you are over an hour late!
> 
> It looks better. Having a wet puck seems not to be an issue as I have read on several forums. I have wet pucks too every now and then.
> Glad to see you indicate the metric system, finally.
> ...



Puck isn’t wet, just damp.  It came out whole.

If your shot is too fast, it’s usually a grind issue, too coarse.  Why do you think it’s volume or tamp pressure?

There are advocates out there for just always tamping as hard as you can, for best consistency.  The reasoning is that it’s impossible to get consistent tamp pressure at anything less than this, so you might as well tamp hard and grind to suit.

I do something like this, I tamp as hard as I can at an arm’s length away from me, so I’m not putting my body weight on it.  Probably close enough to the ideal 30 lb, but consistency is more important than pressure, just adjust your grind coarseness to hit your shot time at your tamp pressure.  

Taste?  Mouthfeel?  Seems good, but I need some time to decide that.  I was doing all of these experiments at night, so I wasn’t partaking much.  I’m also maybe slower than most to develop an opinion on a beverage, at least half thanks to my half burned out sense of smell.  Too many years of solvents and paints, working on hot rods and racing boats.


----------



## begreen (Aug 16, 2019)

My goodness, the lack of puck pressure accuracy is alarming. You need more hardware to get this dialed in exactly. Add a PuqPress from the Netherlands.


----------



## Jan Pijpelink (Aug 16, 2019)

begreen said:


> My goodness, the lack of puck pressure accuracy is alarming. You need more hardware to get this dialed in exactly. Add a PuqPress from the Netherlands.



$1200? I will use my tamper.


----------



## begreen (Aug 16, 2019)

Tut tut, think of the bragging rights you will have. Or make your own. 
https://makezine.com/projects/hydraulic-espresso-tamper/


----------



## Jan Pijpelink (Aug 16, 2019)

begreen said:


> Tut tut, think of the bragging rights you will have. Or make your own.
> https://makezine.com/projects/hydraulic-espresso-tamper/


I don't need bragging rights, I have no friends.


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## Jan Pijpelink (Aug 16, 2019)

begreen said:


> My goodness, the lack of puck pressure accuracy is alarming. You need more hardware to get this dialed in exactly. Add a PuqPress from the Netherlands.



I might think @Ashful might fall for it.


----------



## Ashful (Oct 6, 2019)

Hmm...somehow i fell off this thread. No interest in PuqPress, but I dig the one the guy made himself. Sorry, that kind of stuff is just fun for the engineer in me.

I forgot to follow up on the issue I was having with dialing in consistent shot times. It was my basket, the capacity was less than I had realized. I was grinding 16 grams into it, as it’s labeled as a double-shot basket, and that was giving me loose grind just below the lip. However, after pressed the puck was apparently too tall and when I installed the portafilter it was bottoming out on the spray head. I didn’t realize this until one time when I removed the portafilter before running a shot, and I could see the impression of the screw head in the top of my puck. It turns out, my basket can only hold about 13 grams of the beans I’m running (La Colombe Nizza).

For all the videos out there on dialing in shots, I’ve never seen one that talks about determining the capacity of your basket.  I just did it by grinding less and less (changing grind time on Sette), until I could install an remove the basket without seeing an impression of the spray head on the puck, and then I went maybe two tenths of a second below that.  In any case, now I’m getting consistent shots.


----------



## AlbergSteve (Oct 6, 2019)

I know for the Silvia there is a *mod* to eliminate the screw head in the puck, might be able to do the same on yours. I'm using a 17g basket as well.


----------



## Ashful (Oct 6, 2019)

AlbergSteve said:


> I know for the Silvia there is a *mod* to eliminate the screw head in the puck, might be able to do the same on yours. I'm using a 17g basket as well.



Gaggia already has flush screw. My point was that the entire puck was mashed up on the spray head, with 17g in the basket. Sorry for the confusion.

I would guess the eight capacity of the basket varies with density if the beans, for different beans and roasts.  I hadn’t given it enough thought before, and had just been filling to the 17g I saw people using online.


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## AlbergSteve (Jan 7, 2020)

Soooo, if you guys are still hanging out here, I've been having some issues with my Rocky grinder lately. I haven't been able to grind quite fine enough and haven't been cleaning the grinder properly(read=AT ALL). This is what I discovered...


It looks like an Italian sculpture!




...and this is what came out of there.





Looks like the cutting edges are off the burrs as well. I've ordered a new set _and _I'm treating myself to a naked portafilter.

Even after cleaning everything up, still can't get a fine grind.


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## Jan Pijpelink (Jan 7, 2020)

AlbergSteve said:


> Soooo, if you guys are still hanging out here, I've been having some issues with my Rocky grinder lately. I haven't been able to grind quite fine enough and haven't been cleaning the grinder properly(read=AT ALL). This is what I discovered...
> View attachment 254852
> 
> It looks like an Italian sculpture!
> ...


Maintenance! So important.


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## Ashful (Jan 7, 2020)

AlbergSteve said:


> Soooo, if you guys are still hanging out here, I've been having some issues with my Rocky grinder lately. I haven't been able to grind quite fine enough and haven't been cleaning the grinder properly(read=AT ALL). This is what I discovered...
> View attachment 254852
> 
> It looks like an Italian sculpture!
> ...


Unfortunately, I’m not much help with the grinder calibration.  I don‘t own a Rocky, and both of my burr grinders are still new enough that I haven’t had to do any maintenance on either of them.  But I do know they need to be recalibrated after changing burrs, so do you think it could be as simple as that?  I just did a quick YouTube search on Rocky grinder calibration, and this was the first hit:


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## AlbergSteve (Jan 7, 2020)

Yeah, did the cal when I reassembled, still no joy.


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## Ashful (Jan 8, 2020)

Your earlier post wasn’t quite clear, when you said, “Even after cleaning everything up, still can't get a fine grind.”   Are the new burrs installed, or are you still waiting to receive them?


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## AlbergSteve (Jan 8, 2020)

Ashful said:


> Your earlier post wasn’t quite clear, when you said, “Even after cleaning everything up, still can't get a fine grind.”   Are the new burrs installed, or are you still waiting to receive them?


Still waiting, they'll be here next week. Took it apart again last night and noticed that the bottom burr runs a bit eccentric when spinning. Unfortunately Rancilio doesn't index the burr to the carrier and with the bit of slop around the screw holes it's difficult to center it perfectly. May try using flat head screws instead of pan heads, using the taper of the head to center the burr, assuming the PCD is concentric to the motor shaft!
Not sure there's funding from my CFO for a grinder upgrade...


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## Ashful (Jan 8, 2020)

Well, if it does come to that, Jan and I are both using the newer Baratxa Sette models with success.  I hate the stupid shape of them more than he does, I think, but I can’t argue with the performance.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Jan 13, 2020)

Jan Pijpelink said:


> I don't need bragging rights, I have no friends.


After scanning through this whole thread, I now believe you.  

I thought you were just flexing that sardonic Dutch sense of humor when you've said this multiple times before. 

 I do think you have one now.  And he's just across the Delaware!

You guys would be a hoot at a party.  

And in all fairness, i suppose I'm in the same boat, having sufficient time and patience to even scan through all this.

I guess I just wish you hadn't dragged Alberg into this...


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## AlbergSteve (Jan 14, 2020)

Portafilter and burrs came today. The old burrs were the problem, new ones are able to grind finer than flour and choked the grinder! Roasted 1/2 pound of fresh coffee this afternoon and used most of it trying to dial my shots in. It needs work...will have to continue experimenting tomorrow, can't drink any more coffee tonight.


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## Ashful (Jan 14, 2020)

Easy Livin’ 3000 said:


> After scanning through this whole thread, I now believe you.
> 
> I thought you were just flexing that sardonic Dutch sense of humor when you've said this multiple times before.
> 
> ...


D’oh!


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## AlbergSteve (Jan 22, 2020)

Just when I got my shots dialed in, *this *comes along...


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## Ashful (Jan 23, 2020)

AlbergSteve said:


> Just when I got my shots dialed in, *this *comes along...


There were a few points of confusion in there that I think are a sign that the author isn’t a barista, but I get the underlying concept.  Maybe I’m accidentally ahead of my time, but I’m not grinding 20g anyway.  I am right around 0.5 oz = 14.2 grams, if I recall.  It was more about getting one American nickel’s gap between my spray head and my puck, than some magical amount of grounds.  Change the filter basket or the beans or the roast, and that number has to change.  All that’s important to me is that I’m getting a 2:1 extraction by weight (eg 1.0 oz espresso from 0.5 oz grinds) in 20 - 25 seconds, with an appropriate spray head gap.  If you can manage that with quality beans on a machine with reasonable temperature control and pressure, you’re going to have a shot good enough for me.

I think the author of this article(or their sources) are backing into the same result, with a lot of unnecessary complexity.


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