# Add On Wood Furnaces?



## oregonian (Dec 31, 2008)

I was wondering if anyone had any good or bad experiences with Add On Wood Burning Furnaces?  We have been looking at the Big Jack models by Yukon http://www.yukon-eagle.com.  We would be placing it in the garage with a separate chimney and duct work to the existing furnace as well as an optional water coil that would circulate heated water into our existing hot water tank.  Does anyone have any additional units/manufacturers that they would recommend?  Thanks!


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## Stihl_WoodBandit (Jan 1, 2009)

I'm not sure if you have Tractor Supply Company stores out there, but I just recently bought a US Stove Company Hotblast model 1557M.  I paid about 1050 with tax and it has been well worth the money.  When i was searching for an add on, a couple guys recommended Yukon Big Jack models.  But the price and local availability made the 1557M the right choice for me.  

To get to your scenario, these add-on furnaces will heat some square footage especially if they come with big enough blowers.  My Hotblast came standard with two 550 cfm blowers that heat my 1350 sf house in the windy, open Ohio countryside with no problem.

Good luck with whatever you purchase.


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## CrappieKeith (Feb 17, 2009)

I have a BJ90 and if you want to compare them to a HotBlast there are none outside of they both are wood burners.
The Jack has a secondary burn that the HB does not have.
They are also built much stronger with a 30 year warranty. 
They can run on just gravity and will not split without a blower to move the heat from it.
You can also buy from the factory not a middleman marking them up.
Really when you think about the HB and buying from a retailer for such a cheap price....what are you really getting in a furnace like that?


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## ikessky (Feb 18, 2009)

Better check with your insurance before installing it in your garage.  My insurance company absolutely will not let me install a wood burner of any sort in my garage.

I run a cheap Daka and have been happy with it so far.  We had a stretch of -40 below weather and it had no problem keeping my house warm.  If I had the knowledge I have now though, I would look for a model that is EPA certified.  The PSG Caddy is one that I've found and I believe there is also a US Stove model that is EPA certified.


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## jdew1920 (Feb 18, 2009)

I also have a Daka and am happy with it, cheap, no frills but very effective at heating my house.  BTW you can run the daka w/o the blower also.  Being as I am on natural gas I couldn't justify spending more than I did to heat with wood.  I agree one of the EPA furnaces would of been nice though.  US Stove rebadges the Caddy as the Hot Blast 1900/1950.  I have also heard good things about the Yukons.  There is another one called the Kuuma Vaporfire that is a gasifier & computer controlled.  Expensive but supposed to be a great furnace - theres a thread on here somewhere where somebody installed one.


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## CrappieKeith (Feb 18, 2009)

ikessky said:
			
		

> Better check with your insurance before installing it in your garage.  My insurance company absolutely will not let me install a wood burner of any sort in my garage.
> 
> I run a cheap Daka and have been happy with it so far.  We had a stretch of -40 below weather and it had no problem keeping my house warm.  If I had the knowledge I have now though, I would look for a model that is EPA certified.  The PSG Caddy is one that I've found and I believe there is also a US Stove model that is EPA certified.



you make 2 good points....There's this thing called heating code.
You may or may not install in a garage.
There may be a way around a garage install if you put walls around the unit so gas fumes can not enter from the garage into the furnace room.

2nd...EPA Certified....is a joke in the industry.Talk to the testers of the standard.Way to many varibles to get a standard set of criteria. Then if the unit gets installed any differently then it was tested it could react differently.Woods are different,flues are different add in different elevations.Solid fuel does not have any continuity of operation.
The 40/60 AAA rule is for stoves only.It exempts furnaces.
There's only 1 or 2 states that have went to the next level to say all wood burners need to adhere. It's a case of law makers making rulings without much forsite to what is really do able.


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## ikessky (Feb 18, 2009)

I guess I should have specified what I meant when I said EPA certified.  If I had the knowledge that I have now, I would get an add-on furnace that has a secondary burn system.


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## CrappieKeith (Feb 18, 2009)

ikessky said:
			
		

> I guess I should have specified what I meant when I said EPA certified.  If I had the knowledge that I have now, I would get an add-on furnace that has a secondary burn system.



That's why they say hindsight is 20-20.
Some day you may get tired of loading it with all of that wood. We will still be making furnaces.
The older we get ,the smarter we play!


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## ikessky (Feb 18, 2009)

CrappieKeith said:
			
		

> Some day you may get tired of loading it with all of that wood. We will still be making furnaces.


I'm a little confused as to what you mean here.  A furnace that has a secondary burn system should use less wood than my current non-EPA wood furnace.  Regardless what kind of wood furnace I had, I would still have my natural gas furnace as a back up.


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## CrappieKeith (Feb 18, 2009)

ikessky said:
			
		

> CrappieKeith said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wood has about 8000 to 8700 btu's per lb available to be made if it has a moisture content of 20% or lower.
With out a reburn burning the smoke you are loosing out on 30-40% of the heat that is available.
Next ,once you have made the heat you need thermal mass to help retain the heat from flowing out your flue pipe.

The more dense the bricks are the more heat they can soak up and exchange through the heat exchange surface area.
The more heat exchange surface area the more heat and the faster it will exchange instead of going out your flue.
Cycling burn rates with a thermostat giving the furnace time to exchange the heat is also key and lastly a barometric draft regulator in the flue alleviating draft speeds is nessesary.Better furnaces allow for a .04 which equates to about a 400 degree flue gas temp or stack temp.Any hotter and you are waisting your heat.Any cooler and those flues gases can condense to liquid.
Burning solid fuel with a full natural draft will be about .08" of water column which is not nessesary. A draft only needs to be fast enough for good combustion and proper venting.

EPA is concerned about excessive particulates (smoke) being vented out a chimney. Getting a furnace which heats the entire home or a stove that heats a room or 2 that has a reburn in it is what the EPA ultimately wants.


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## ikessky (Feb 18, 2009)

Am I correct in assuming that you work for a company manufacturing these things?


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## CrappieKeith (Feb 18, 2009)

You got me!
I'm a tech/sales rep at Yukon.
I also own a Yukon.
My mission is to help people.


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## jdemaris (Feb 18, 2009)

oregonian said:
			
		

> I was wondering if anyone had any good or bad experiences with Add On Wood Burning Furnaces?  We have been looking at the Big Jack models by Yukon http://www.yukon-eagle.com.  We would be placing it in the garage with a separate chimney and duct work to the existing furnace as well as an optional water coil that would circulate heated water into our existing hot water tank.  Does anyone have any additional units/manufacturers that they would recommend?  Thanks!



I've worked on, installed, repaired, and/or owned many of them.   Much depends on what you want for your money.  Steel is expensive and heavy, and many wood furnace companies are using thinner steel as time goes on.   Look that the specs very closely, especially if you want heavy duty that's going to last.  I've had to repair many with warped or burnt out baffles and chambers after 5 years of use. That is epecially true with the US Stove Company Hot Blast furnaces.  The Yukon Eagle is also not much better.  The secondary fuel setup if an oil-gun, is a joke.  Good for getting fires started though.  I used to work for a wood furnace company 30 years ago - Thermo Control Stoves in New York.  Even with 3/16" steel, they had awful warping and burnout problems.

I bought a new wood furnace three years ago and had to do a lot of searching to find something with some real steel in it.  Finally bought the biggest Woodchuck made by Meyers farm equipment company. On their model 4000, they claim a 4 gauge firebox lined with firebrick.  All the smaller models get thinner and thinner - 7 gauge and the cheapest model 10 gauge.  Got the furnace delivered and  found out their specs are part-lies.  Exposed bare metal in the fire box is indeed 4 gauge, but the portion covered in firebrick is only 7 gauge.  I called the company threatened to take legal action and they then gave me a $400 refund - which I agreed to.

The biggest and best Yukon Super Jack is only 7 gauge steel. United Stove Co. Hot Blast models are 10 or 7 gauge.

If you're buying  used, probably none of this matters.  If cheap, any furnace can be fixed and/or improved.  But if buying new, look very closely. As far as the other stuff like efficiency ratings - means nothing to me.  Just about any stove if used right with good dry wood will work fine - or can be made to work fine.

I'll add that I heat all our domestic hot water with stainless steel coils in my furnace -hooked thermosiphon to a 80 gallon storage tank. That feeds into an LP tank heater that never comes on when the fire is going.


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## CrappieKeith (Feb 18, 2009)

Well in taking the high road it looks as if there's an axe to grind and really it is unfair of you to throw out these claims that are unsubstantiated.
Yukon's have the best design out there and are the only UL listed multi fuel furnaces on the market which means they are the only legal furnaces as far as what heating code says where as a unit has to be listed regularly which we do.Being tested to UL 391 by ETLM is not being listed.They do not come out to do the testing.
Our furnaces last many decades and do to improer installs by installers and improper operation by some customers they can fail sooner.

As per the UL testing data the firebox walls never got over 900 degrees during operation in about 100 tests.It takes temps much higher to warp steel.
So if there were units that split it was due to improper installations or operation.

As to your claims that any wood unit will work just fine.This shows me you do not know as much as you think you know.
It is impossible to make all of the btu's without a reburn of some sort.
Also have a barometric draft regulator in the flue will slow down your burn rate allowing more heat to be exchanged.

WoodChuck makes a darn fine furnace. My only issue with those furnaces are they have catilysts...which means there a screen to clean often to get the reburn.
You must have gotten their super big one to have 4 gauge which is an over kill.
Our 7 gauge Jacks last most guys at least 30 years or better.

We have a hot water maker too ....might as well make hot water while your heating your home.


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## ikessky (Feb 18, 2009)

I guess I didn't do my research on the Yukon line.  I didn't know they had secondary burn systems.  I'll definitely keep that in mind when it comes time to get a new furnace.  Without a glass viewing door on the Yukons, how do you know when secondary combustion is being achieved?


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## jdemaris (Feb 18, 2009)

CrappieKeith said:
			
		

> Well in taking the high road it looks as if there's an axe to grind and really it is unfair of you to throw out these claims that are unsubstantiated.



I don't have an "axe to grind" and made NO unsubtantiated claims.  Seems though, that you have done that about me. 

As I indicated, many might not care either way about how rugged a stove is, metal gauge, etc.  The facts I posted are not "claims" as you put it - at least about the firebox metal thickness. Just facts. 

In regard to other things I said- not sure which ones have got you all wired up.   The Yukons with the alternative heat options are not very efficient in the oil-heat mode.   Good for backup and good for lighting wood fires. NOT a great choice if someone wants to use oil as the primary use.
There are plenty of facts to back that up.  I'll add that 7 gauge steel is not heavy duty by most standards and that is what all the Yukons use in their fireboxes.

As to your other claims about me not knowing as much as I think?  That's a tough one.  I've do have a pretty good awareness of knowing what I do know.  I've heated with wood for 40  years, most of that time with 100% wood heating and not a backup. Also been involved in wood cooking along with my wife for a long time. Built and repaired wood cooking fireplaces, wood bake ovens, worked for the Thermo-Control wood furnace company, etc.  That doesn't mean I either know it all, or perhaps think I know it all.  But, I do know a little.   My comments about any wood furnace can be be made to work well was a very general comment.  And, it's true in most cases. If you don't have the skills to improve one yourself - fine.  But, that's not my problem.   Much of the hype about high efficiency ratings means little when you are heating full time with wood with varying outdoor temps.  It's very difficult and near impossible to run even a high rated  large indoor furnace or stove at peak efficiency with the varying demands of fluxuating outdoor temps and full time use.   Personally, I like simplicity over complication.  There's something to be said for it. 

Now, if there is some  specific comment that I made that you claim is invalid, not true, etc. please advise.


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## CrappieKeith (Feb 18, 2009)

I would point out they they are rated at 80.1% on the oil. As to compared to a convention oil ...a conventional oil does not have any thermal mass.
The Husky or Polar has near 200 lb.s of 2" thick 3200 degree ceramic brick for heat retention.
so when the oil satifies the stat in a normal oil furnace there's no more heat coming,with the Yukon's you have that heat from the bricks bleeding off into the ducting keeping the stat satisfied even longer.

It sounded like you were blasting a bit & I'll certainly conceed that point if you were not...you know how it is to read something vs. hearing it with voice inflection.
I'm not here to peddle furnace...to help I am.
I am trying to keep the balance of things. There's also Yukon users in this forum that may need help too.
I'm no engineer and I can be wrong...but I want to at least put out what I believe is correct or at the very least represent the other side of the coin to the best of my ability.
Sorry for the titter tat.


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## jdemaris (Feb 18, 2009)

CrappieKeith said:
			
		

> You must have gotten their super big one to have 4 gauge which is an over kill.
> Our 7 gauge Jacks last most guys at least 30 years or better.



I don't regard 4 gauge as overkill.  That's my personal choice just and the connotation of the word "overkill" can vary with context.  I've had to go into many homes and cut out pieces of warped fireboxes that were 7 gauge and sometimes only 10 gauge.  Many furnaces less than 10 years old.  It's an awful job. Have you ever tried to repair and weld  partially burnt-out crystalized steel? Admittedly, many were too small for the job and run very hot, but . . . that's why I prefer a thick firebox.  Using 10 or 7 gauge and protecting it with firebrick is fine - until a brick breaks, gets knocked out of the way, etc.   Then it's pretty easy to get a burn out. or a warped section.  

I didn't tell the guy who asked the questons to seek out a 4 gauge stove only. I told him what I've seen and he can make up his own mind. Any steel can get warped, even 4 gauge or thicker if not put in the correct place or protected in some way.  

In regard to the Yukon  30 year warranty?  Come on, give me a break.  It's written just as many other warranties are written for heating appliances.  It is pro-rated, not full.  After 4 years, it covers less then 50% cost. After 10 years less then 20% of the cost.  Also does not cover transportation/shipping, labor, etc.  Also is restricted to "if heat exhanger fails due to a defect in materials or worksmanship." That is very open-ended and hard to prove. What is a "defect."

I had to go on a service call for an Olsen oil hot-air furnace that got a hole in its heat exchanger after three years of use.  It had a 10 year  "full warranty. "  Ended up the warranty was worthless and not worth pursuing.   They said we'd have to pay for someone certified by their company to pull it, pay to send it back to their factory - and they'd decide if the damage was caused by a defect or not.  And all this time the owner sits home with no heat?

Haven't personally had to deal with Yukon but have read their warranty very carefully.


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## Eric Johnson (Feb 18, 2009)

Given that most people probably violate the terms of most warranties at some point, I think it comes down to the manufacturer's discretion anyway, at least with low-volume products like boilers and furnaces. Within that context, it's probably not that hard to declare a warranty void and abandon the customer. Companies that provide support for their products and don't try to worm out of their obligations and responsibilities are going to get more business over time than those who earn a reputation for not standing up for their products. This is particularly true today, when we have forums like this one where people from around the world can exchange information. 

I really can't say that I've read the warranty on my Eko. I've had issues and they were resolved by the importer and the dealer without question. Ask any poor soul who bought an Adobe about their claims experience, and you'll hear a very sad story that probably ended up in court. I'd be willing to bet the warranties are basically identical, given that they're all drafted by lawyers anyway.


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## CrappieKeith (Feb 18, 2009)

Mostly our warranty is there to cover the furnace.
We in fact cover waranties on parts that are not even covered like electrical after a year.Grates,bricks you name it.
If a firebox lets go in the 1st 2 years I know it was severaly overheated to do that.We still cover it 100%
We also pay a lot of times for freight on parts and that's not covered under warranty.
We also give warranties on parts the year after.
I could go on.Our customer is the most important person around here...not sure what your used to dealing with?
"In regard to the Yukon 30 year warranty?  Come on, give me a break. "
Unless you deal with me how would you even know.....starting to sound a lot like you started off.

I work hard to care for our customers and the way you say thing makes it look like we are pulling a fast one.

I am done with this thread.You can never fight the dragon online and win.


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## jdemaris (Feb 18, 2009)

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> Given that most people probably violate the terms of most warranties at some point, I think it comes down to the manufacturer's discretion anyway, at least with low-volume products like boilers and furnaces. Within that context, it's probably not that hard to declare a warranty void and abandon the customer. Companies that provide support for their products and don't try to worm out of their obligations and responsibilities are going to get more business over time than those who earn a reputation for not standing up for their products. This is particularly true today, when we have forums like this one where people from around the world can exchange information.
> 
> I really can't say that I've read the warranty on my Eko. I've had issues and they were resolved by the importer and the dealer without question. Ask any poor soul who bought an Adobe about their claims experience, and you'll hear a very sad story that probably ended up in court. I'd be willing to bet the warranties are basically identical, given that they're all drafted by lawyers anyway.



I've worked for many dealers in my life - not all furnace.   Thermo-control wood furnaces, John Deere ag and forestry equipment, Homelite, Hoe and Stihl chainsaws, Delaval milking equipment, etc. 
At just about all, warranty service was pretty much determined by the dealer, not the company.
If we, as a dealer took on a new line and found out we got headaches with the companys warranty policies, we'd drop them.   May not work that way everywhere, but it did in my experiences.   In the case of that Olsen furnace I mentioned, I'm friends with the dealer I bought it from. He could not get them to honor their warranty and he did later drop them.  In fact, as I sit here typing, they are paying out a class-action law suit against them for many furnances they built  under many names - even some high-end names like Trane that were really just resellers.

I personally had a big warranty problem years ago with Kalamazoo that sold a combo oil and wood hot-air furnace similar to what Yukon sells now.  Might even be the same one, I don't know. 
In that case, it was a long drawn out battle but I got them to make good.  Basically, the salesman for that company sold me a furnace too small for my old farmhouse.  I made him sign paperwork when I bought it that  - if my house could not get up to 65 degrees on the coldest winter days, they'd have to replace it with a bigger unit.  I wanted the buy the bigger unit right from the start, but they insisited on selling me, and installing the smaller one.  My house would not get above 50 with the wood fire, and it was even colder with the oil on some minus 25F days.  Took me two years, but after getting the NY State fraud department involved, they finally sent a crew out and installed their biggest furnace with zero cost to me. To this day, I still can't figure why they had insisted on installing that smaller rig.


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## jdemaris (Feb 18, 2009)

CrappieKeith said:
			
		

> Mostly our warranty is there to cover the furnace.
> We in fact cover waranties on parts that are not even covered like electrical.Grates,bricks you name it.
> 
> I work hard to care for our customers and the way you say thing makes it look like we are pulling a fast one.



I feel bad that you feel that way. I don't know you or anything about your business. In my experience, the dealer is often what makes or breaks a product - not the company that builds it. 
Some of the best and most innovative stuff in history failed due to poor support of the product.

I've worked for several dealers that bent over backwards to help people with warrnaty problems and sometime pay out of pocket, extend expired warranties, etc.

I tried to stick with unemotional facts in my comments but maybe I'm not good at it via a keyboard.

Anyway, no - I certainly don't suspect you or the company of being deceptive because of the written warranty. From what I've seen, they are all open ended and that serves as a two-edged sword.  All depends on how the dealer or how the company uses it after the sale.  I can name some dealers and few companies I've had some real issues with - and Yukon is not one of them.


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## NNYorker (Feb 19, 2009)

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> Given that most people probably violate the terms of most warranties at some point, I think it comes down to the manufacturer's discretion anyway, at least with low-volume products like boilers and furnaces. Within that context, it's probably not that hard to declare a warranty void and abandon the customer. Companies that provide support for their products and don't try to worm out of their obligations and responsibilities are going to get more business over time than those who earn a reputation for not standing up for their products. This is particularly true today, when we have forums like this one where people from around the world can exchange information.
> 
> I really can't say that I've read the warranty on my Eko. I've had issues and they were resolved by the importer and the dealer without question. Ask any poor soul who bought an Adobe about their claims experience, and you'll hear a very sad story that probably ended up in court. I'd be willing to bet the warranties are basically identical, given that they're all drafted by lawyers anyway.



Yes --One end of the spectrum--Adobe Boiler/Enterprise Boiler/Royal Mountain Energy--A.K.A--Phillip Dougherty--the best example of non-existent customer service and warranty resolution. The epitome of the take your money and run seller/dealer. Phil wouldn't return a phone call let alone try and resolve any problems with the product he sold. Still dealing with the lowlife.........


On the opposite end of the spectrum--Econoburn--receive service call from Dale the same day I was notified (five hr. drive to my home/arrived in the evening), follow up phone calls on questions, gratis door gaskets,gasket cement,new refractory and more.......... Open to all questions,suggestions,and comments. I have nothing but praise in my dealings with Dale and company. I think this is a sign of their future --their future looks good! Long Live Econoburn!!


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## mike1234 (Feb 19, 2009)

So, .................  to kind of head back to  the original subject.  

As you can see, there are lots of differing opinions.  I bought mine because I had 2 friends with us steal hotblast furnaces in their garages, and they both like their set ups, but did all of their controlling by the air intake and had no real secondary burn.  No thermostats.  Have to go out and adjust the air intake depending on time of day.

There are a few furnaces with thermostats and electric fans that control the air, you NEED that, it makes all the difference when it comes to burn time, and controlling the temp in the house.  

I could not find anyone who hated their yukon, and they were much better at answering my questions then the other 2 companies I tried to talk to.  I called maybe 10 times over 6 months while I decided what  to buy, and they were way better than the other companies about talking to me, explaining things to me, working up a price list, ect...  In fact that is why I finally made the decision I made.  

I am very happy with my yukon, and I am still very happy with the customer service I get when I call.  In my opinion, I recommend you not get the us stove hotblast, but I'm sure there are hotblast owners on here that will disagree.  However I am also sure there are other very good furnaces on the market, including the ones mentioned in this thread.  

Also, I am not sure it is code to put it in your garage, in fact I now think it is not (even though at the time I thought it was OK).  I did not pull a permit, but I ran EVERYTHING through the insurance before I bought, and after I installed.  They had me fill out a form, and they raised my rate about 200/year.  If I was trying to pull a permit on it, I would say I was putting it in the attached storage room with overhead doors, I'd clear it out of all "garage things," put in a temporary way to keep the cars out (remove that after they approved the install).  

The garage is the way to go, however.   All the wood mess is contained in that area.  While you are learning, you will smoke up the place, guaranteed, and you can just open the garage doors for a few minutes, and no more smoke.  

Real cost:  It cost me about 800 for the install from my HVAC guy, as we connected it to the existing forced air furnace.

All of this of course, is just my opinion.


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## ikessky (Feb 19, 2009)

Back to my original question:  How do you know you are getting secondary burn when there is no glass door to see it?


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## jdemaris (Feb 19, 2009)

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> Given that most people probably violate the terms of most warranties at some point, I think it comes down to the manufacturer's discretion anyway, at least with low-volume products like boilers and furnaces. Within that context, it's probably not that hard to declare a warranty void and abandon the customer.



A few more comments on warranties for furnaces and other items.   I'm sure many people are aware of this, but I know some are not.   My comments are not targeted towards any specific brand.  

Most  furnace warranties that I've had to deal with, were useless as far as the primary seller was concerned (company warranty).  There may be exceptions out there somewhere, but for all I've seen, it generally goes like this.   If there is a heavy hard-parts failure, e.g. firebox, heat exchanger, etc. , no labor charges, and no shipping-back-to-the-factory fees are covered.  In addition, most companies do not allow anyone to repair the furnace unless authorized by them.  That pretty much nullifies that warranty for most people. 
 Here's one example I had to deal with recently.  Oneida-Royal oil hot-air furnace.  Comes with a "lifetime warranty" on the heat exchanger.  Customer never bothered to read the small print.  After two winters, it was putting CO into the house and had a hole burnt through the heat exchanger.   So, he called me. I came and looked at it and found the hole.   The furnace had an ultra cheap heat exchanger protected by a cheap refractory blanket.  The blanket fell apart, and as soon as it did, the furnace gun burnt a hole right through the thin exchanger.  I called the company.  Here is how they handled it.   They told me that first the customer could not just use just any furnace repairman.  We had to use a Oneida-Royal certified  repairman.   There were none within a 60 mile radius of us.   So, I called the dealer and complained. and we finally made a conference phone call to the company.  Finally got "special permission" to have me remove the furnace, take it apart as much as possible, and pay all shipping charges to send it to the other side of the country. Then, their warranty department would look at it and determine if they're going to cover it or not.   Keep in mind, just getting to that point would of cost the customer about $600, out of pocket and never refundable.  The complete furnace only cost $950 new.  They went on to tell me that, if they discovered that the refractory blanket had failed, and that's why the heat exchanger burnt out - there would be no warranty. Well, duh . . .    That's exactly what happened.   But, they claimed that the refractory blanket is considered an expendable wear item and is NOT warranteed, and is NOT considered defective when it falls apart.   
 So, I put a patch in the heat exchanger, built a refractory chamber out of firebrick and replaced with new the next summer. That "lifetime warranty" was worse than useless. 

My point here is, the dealer is what can make or break a good buy.  For me, I don't pay any attention to warrantees.   I'd rather figure what specs I want in a product, and go out and find one.  That is why, when I was looking for a new, large, wood furnace, I bought the Meyers.  I consider it a lifetime investment - and with that mindset, I wouldn't accept a firebox with metal any thinner than 4 gauge (around 1/4").  30 - 40 years ago, that was the minimum standard used by most major wood and coal furnaces, and better yet a stainless steel or cast iron baffle was used in the hottest sections.  

There probably are some very good dealers out there that go the extra mile for customers.   Just don't assume they all do.   When I worked for a Thermo-Control dealer in the 1970s, I had to go out and do many in-home welding repairs for burnt-out baffles and secondary chambers.  We covered most of the cost of those repairs  and usually, we got reimbursed by the company - but - the company went out of business. 

It's not just about furnaces either.   Every buy a "lifetime warranty" exhaust system or brakes for your car or truck?  Many companies now void those warrantees because it became too costly when people kept their vehicles too long. That includes NAPA and Advance Auto.  They now get around it by claiming when those parts rust out, burn out, or wear out - it is NORMAL and not due to a defect.

Also with batteries.  Particularly with the solar-electric industry and government incentive programs. When I installed my solar electric system,  the state of NY tried to force me to use Canadian batteries made by Rolls-Surette. Why? They were the only battery on the market with a full, not pro-rated 5 year warranty.  Problem was and is - they are in Canada with warehouses far from me.  If there was any sort of warranty claim, I was required to pay all shipping charges, both ways.   Made that warranty pretty much useless.  If there has been a local dealer that stocked them, it would of been different.


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## mike1234 (Feb 19, 2009)

ikessky said:
			
		

> Back to my original question:  How do you know you are getting secondary burn when there is no glass door to see it?



Remember, not your thread, so as far as "back to my original question," it's not the original question.

However to answer it, the secondary burn is achieved through the door, there is an air intake on the door, and then it heats the air in the door, and releases it on the fire.  All that to say a glass would not be possible in the door in it's current design.

I know I am getting a secondary burn by: 1. Looking at the top of your stack.  Smoke or just heat?  Smoke means not an  efficient secondary burn.  I think this is true of any stove or furnace with a secondary burn system  2. I have a thermometer just above the door, if it's 400 and I am not running the air intake fan, I have a secondary burn.  I also have a thermometer just as the stove joins the plenum, if it is reading over 100, again with no air intake fan running, I have a secondary burn.  3.  When I open the door, I see the glowing red wood, and blue flame, just before all the wood catches fire again, so if I want, I can catch a glimpse of the secondary burn.


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## CrappieKeith (Feb 19, 2009)

I just had that conversation with the boss the other day.
He said back in the day when this company was killing us in sales because of a lifetime warranty.
At a trade show he runs into the other Co. Rep. and asks how can you do that?
The Rep says...we never pay out. It's always the customers fault.

My boss/owner say's in business ... if you have integrity nothing else matters.....if you do not have integrity still nothing else matters.


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## CrappieKeith (Feb 19, 2009)

ikessky said:
			
		

> Back to my original question:  How do you know you are getting secondary burn when there is no glass door to see it?



The 1st sign is there's no smoke coming out of your chimney just heat waves.Your also going through 1/2 of the wood you used too.
30-40% of the available BTU's are in that smoke.....burn it!
We had glass on them during some testing. It's there.


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## jdemaris (Feb 19, 2009)

CrappieKeith said:
			
		

> ikessky said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ikessky (Feb 19, 2009)

mike1234 said:
			
		

> Remember, not your thread, so as far as "back to my original question," it's not the original question.


Technicalities.....   ;-P 

I appreciate the info guys.  One of the main reasons I was thinking about the PSG Caddy is because of the glass door.  Then again, the furnace is in the basement, so a viewing door doesn't really make a difference for me.  I was just curious how you knew you were achieving it.  I'm the type of person that has to physically see what is going on or I just don't feel comfortable with it.  Looks like I need to start saving my pennies for a new furnace in a few years!


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## johnn (Feb 20, 2009)

I read all this thinking someone was actually going to convince me to buy that PSG ADD ON CADDY, shuck`s.

  Where`s that guy at?


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