# Student loan forgiveness



## Ashful (Aug 26, 2022)

Sorry to start a rant, but after putting myself through school while working full-time, it's hard to sit on this one.

My past:  Worked full-time for 14 years, while doing a combination of full-time, part-time, and evening college.  Started in 1993, received BS in 2004, and MS in 2007.  Worked full-time to pay for my schooling for all of that period, excepting two 9-month windows when school had to take priority.  Never took a single dime in student loans, and my parents did not pay for my schooling.

So now, I'm being asked to pay thru my taxes, for those who took an easier path, and now feel they shouldn't have to pay back what they borrowed?  That's awful hard to stomach.  What about the poor folks who have already scraped to pay back what they owed, and now have to (on top of what they've already paid) pay for someone else's borrowing, through their taxes?  Unacceptable.


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## Poindexter (Aug 26, 2022)

I find it difficult to disagree.  

I worked night shift my last three semesters of my bachelor's, because I had mandatory classes that fell in day shift and evening shift every time.


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## Garbanzo62 (Aug 26, 2022)

People who knowingly took on debt should be required to repay it. That being said, I do not see why the gov't can't lower the interest rates on Student loans.. That 10K is about a years worth of interest for my kids loans.  I suspect that there will be a challenge to the authority to do this. They are leveraging a law passed after 9/11 to allow the govt to forgive student loans for soldiers.  Administration argued that Title 42 was no longer needed because the Covid Emergency was over. Now they are saying the Covid Emergency give them the authority to forgive the debt.. Can't have it both ways


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## bholler (Aug 26, 2022)

It's no secret I am fairly liberal.  But I have to agree on this one.   Existing loans absolutely shouldn't be forgiven.  And I don't really think new ones should be either.  Now I will say the cost has risen to rediculous levels and it would be good if something could be done to make it more attainable.  But I don't agree with total handouts.


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## Ashful (Aug 26, 2022)

bholler said:


> It's no secret I am fairly liberal.  But I have to agree on this one.   Existing loans absolutely shouldn't be forgiven.  And I don't really think new ones should be either.  Now I will say the cost has risen to rediculous levels and it would be good if something could be done to make it more attainable.  But I don't agree with total handouts.


Agreed on all points, both bholler and Garbanzo.

Re:  costs... After spending 14 years in academia, even debating making that my career, I had the privilege of watching many a high-school sophomore walk the campus on the three universities I attended, as they shopped for their future school of choice.  Overwhelmingly, they would respond to the amenities, more than the education.  Which school had the nicest gym, dorms, cafeteria, and coffee bars.  So, schools had to respond in kind, building out these expensive facilities, and then passing that cost to the students.  This is a large part of the reason that college prices have risen so much more quickly than other cost of living indexes, it's certainly not what they're paying their faculty, in most cases.

Whatever the reasons, the good news is that I do believe there is a reckoning coming, with regard to college costs.  Those attending school in the last 5 years may have seen the peak, in terms of adjusted cost.  So many have come to the realization that there are better alternatives than 4-5 years at a university, at a cost of $150 - $300k, and even employers have come to accept that a BS isn't necessarily the best measure of an employee's suitability for their role.  It creates new challenges, for employers to find new ways to evaluate young employees without the obligatory piece of paper from an accredited university, but I'm confident smart social media tech will appear to fill that need and that online and self-paced options will continue to improve and grow acceptance and respect.  All of this gives better options to those who cannot afford (in either time or dollars) the traditional path, as well as putting pressure on universities to reduce costs.


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## Garbanzo62 (Aug 26, 2022)

Ashful said:


> Agreed on all points, both bholler and Garbanzo.
> 
> Re:  costs... After spending 14 years in academia, even debating making that my career, I had the privilege of watching many a high-school sophomore walk the campus on the three universities I attended, as they shopped for their future school of choice.  Overwhelmingly, they would respond to the amenities, more than the education.  Which school had the nicest gym, dorms, cafeteria, and coffee bars.  So, schools had to respond in kind, building out these expensive facilities, and then passing that cost to the students.  This is a large part of the reason that college prices have risen so much more quickly than other cost of living indexes, it's certainly not what they're paying their faculty, in most cases.
> 
> Whatever the reasons, the good news is that I do believe there is a reckoning coming, with regard to college costs.  Those attending school in the last 5 years may have seen the peak, in terms of adjusted cost.  So many have come to the realization that there are better alternatives than 4-5 years at a university, at a cost of $150 - $300k, and even employers have come to accept that a BS isn't necessarily the best measure of an employee's suitability for their role.  It creates new challenges, for employers to find new ways to evaluate young employees without the obligatory piece of paper from an accredited university, but I'm confident smart social media tech will appear to fill that need and that online and self-paced options will continue to improve and grow acceptance and respect.  All of this gives better options to those who cannot afford (in either time or dollars) the traditional path, as well as putting pressure on universities to reduce costs.


I went to one of the top business schools in the county (ok forty years ago) What I got out if it is more of an education on how to critically think and how to live on my own.  From a profession standpoint. I learned more in the first six months on the job than I did in the four years at school. I must say that the school name did open doors that might otherwise been closed.


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## brenndatomu (Aug 26, 2022)

Ashful said:


> Unacceptable.


Totally agree.
I just cashflowed (2) 2 year degrees for my wife (only paid for the education, not the school name...she still got a good job in about 2 weeks) but guess I shoulda took a loan out


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## EbS-P (Aug 26, 2022)

It’s not fair. Wasn’t designed to be. And I’m not sure there would be a fair way.  I don’t think the current tax code is fair either (cough cough capital gains tax rate).  NFL is non profit organization…

Taxes are for the greater good not personal benefits.

I’d doesn’t address the root issue, the of cost of higher education.   Many States are spending less per student while costs are increasing.  College is not what it was 20 years ago.  We now have case managers on staff in the student life side (one example).   The demands for accountability from state governments has increased the bureaucracy and middle level management cost by huge amounts.

For them most part I do think public institutions are doing all they can to keep costs in check but they all will need to increase salary spending by a lot to keep competitive in the new labor market.

10k forgiveness is enough to matter for some who receive it.  Others it no where near their total students debt load.   

What were not saying is housing costs are a huge factor.   Probably just as much or more than tuition at some/many public schools.  They would have had to pay for that some way. Parents or from their own pocket.  

What are your thought on PPP grants?   Many companies had no need for them.


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## bholler (Aug 26, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> It’s not fair. Wasn’t designed to be. And I’m not sure there would be a fair way.  I don’t think the current tax code is fair either (cough cough capital gains tax rate).  NFL is non profit organization…
> 
> Taxes are for the greater good not personal benefits.
> 
> ...


PPP grants were a great thing that like most things like that are taken advantage of by way too many people who didn't need them.   Now many of those people got a rude awakening when it came time to show proof of your added expenses in order to have the loan forgiven.


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## stoveliker (Aug 26, 2022)

I do have to say that the cost of college these days is far, FAR larger, than your '90s pricing. 

A cheap state college here in NY (e.g. Stony Brook) costs 25k$-ish per year. I have two kids. That's 200k$. 

The solution to this issue is not loan forgiveness, becaus that's attacking a symptom. It should be solved on the front end, by keeping costs down. Yes, that's tax money too. But I think that education is worth it, that the country will be better off.

Only after that is solved, I'd be in favor of spending money on those we recognize that we wronged (by having this wrong system now).

My $0.02.


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## Ashful (Aug 26, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> I do have to say that the cost of college these days is far, FAR larger, than your '90s pricing.


Oh, definitely.  Didn't mean to imply it was.  I watched the cost of each of the three schools I attended nearly double in ten years, whereas the median household income only went up 17% during the same period.  I would guess that the ratio of median tuition to median household income grew more in the late 1990's and early 2000's, than any other period in our country's history.  The amenities also vastly improved, in the early 1990's I was still using the same concrete cell block dorm room my father had used in the 1960's,  sharing it with another guy, and sharing the one bathroom and one pay phone per floor with 100 other guys.  Ten years later, each two rooms had become a room + private bathroom suite, they'd built a new gymnasium, new cafeteria, and every room had internet and cable TV.



stoveliker said:


> A cheap state college here in NY (e.g. Stony Brook) costs 25k$-ish per year. I have two kids. That's 200k$.


That's not bad, by today's standards.  The university from which I have my MSEE (and 75% of my Ph.D credits) is presently charging $71.5k per year per undergraduate student.  But there are much more affordable, and frankly... better, options out there.


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## stoveliker (Aug 26, 2022)

I agree. 
Stony Brook is a cheap one, as I said.

I also think the universities should get out of the room rental (dorm) business. It has no bearing on the quality of education. Private market works fine elsewhere. ..


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## bholler (Aug 26, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> I agree.
> Stony Brook is a cheap one, as I said.
> 
> I also think the universities should get out of the room rental (dorm) business. It has no bearing on the quality of education. Private market works fine elsewhere. ..


I don't know dorms are a big part of college.  I don't know what it is now but I thought my room and board was pretty reasonable honestly


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## stoveliker (Aug 26, 2022)

Not having a dorm does not make one uninvolved; most college cities in Europe have far more active student social live, and no dorms whatsoever.


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## bholler (Aug 26, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> Not having a dorm does not make one uninvolved; most college cities in Europe have far more active student social live, and no dorms whatsoever.


Oh I know you don't need a dorm to be connected.   But personally I feel I would have missed out if I lived off campus the whole time


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## stoveliker (Aug 26, 2022)

The campus is only the university buildings (departments). I.e. offices. Instead folks lived in rooms downtown.


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## EbS-P (Aug 26, 2022)

Here is data from the NC system for graduate debt.  I would like to see bump from those who didn’t graduate and from community colleges. 

Average debt load seems reasonable 




			https://ticas.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/Student-Debt-for-College-Graduates-in-North-Carolina.pdf


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## Poindexter (Aug 26, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> Here is data from the NC system for graduate debt.


I find the data for UNC-CH hard to believe.  I went in as a junior transfer, and worked full time to pay all my housing, food, transportation and books.  I only borrowed to cover tuition and fees.  The help my parents could afford was to call and offer words of affirmation through the telephone lines while long distance rates were lower on the weekends.

The table implies an entering freshman could do a 4 year degree for $24, 228 in tuition and fees.   I think that number is much more likely to represent average cost per year.  I borrowed close to 20k there in 4 semesters, and there was a great deal of outrage within the student body for how much higher tuition and fees were going to be the semester after I graduated.

According to "scholarships dot com" 2022 instate tuition for fulltime students at UNC-CH is $8980 per semester, before fees, books and housing.  That is $72k just for 8 semesters tuition.


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## Ashful (Aug 26, 2022)

Poindexter said:


> According to "scholarships dot com" 2022 instate tuition for fulltime students at UNC-CH is $8980 per semester, before fees, books and housing.  That is $72k just for 8 semesters tuition.


State schools are a great option, typically very high standards at a fraction of the price of an equivalent private education.  Any parent should be thrilled, if their kids can get acceptance into the main campus of any of the better state schools.  Penn State has one of the better graduate programs in the country, for my particular field.


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## Prof (Aug 26, 2022)

Ashful said:


> State schools are a great option, typically very high standards at a fraction of the price of an equivalent private education.  Any parent should be thrilled, if their kids can get acceptance into the main campus of any of the better state schools.  Penn State has one of the better graduate programs in the country, for my particular field.


A common misperception is that Penn State is a state school--far from it. It is mostly private these days. Tuition is crazy expensive compared to what it was when I spent my 8 years there (I did a BS and a PhD there, I wasn't a slacker). There are 14  state schools in PA--PSU, Pitt and Temple are state-affiliated. Great schools, but bring your checkbook!


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## JRHAWK9 (Aug 26, 2022)

Back in the early 90's, I paid $9xx per semester at University of Wisconsin - Green Bay and $1,3XX per semester at University of Wisconsin- Milwaukee where I graduated with a BS.  I was completely floored when talking to a co-worker with kids with what they pay now.  I couldn't believe it.  It's criminal.


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## Prof (Aug 26, 2022)

I work in higher ed. Here is the truth as I see it (at least in PA). State contributions to the state schools have dropped off a cliff over the past two decades. State schools raised tuition and fees to compensate. To my knowledge the administration didn't really look too hard to find real solutions, which probably would have looked like down-sizing. They continued to build despite enrollment projections predicting a famine of sorts.  Years later, we have priced ourselves out of any reasonable market for higher ed., even at the public level. On balance. it is a combination of state government not caring about higher education and mismanagement at the institutions. I still won't hesitate to send my kids to state or state-affiliated schools, they will get a good education. Then again, I was fortunate to be able to start a 529 plan the day they were born (plus they will get free tuition at the place I work, provided it doesn't completely collapse).  My student loans have been paid off for more than a decade, but I don't have a problem  with the recent forgiveness plan. BTW, we paid for my loans as well as my wife's (about 50K) and then we paid for my wife's MA (another 25K). I have felt the pain! I look at this recent action as a better investment in the future than tax breaks for corporations. Just my thoughts, for what they are worth.


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## brenndatomu (Aug 26, 2022)

Prof said:


> I look at this recent action as a better investment in the future than tax breaks for corporations.


Well, going at it from that angle, it is also a whole lot better investment than the 85 billion worth of equipment left behind over in the sandbox too!


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## EbS-P (Aug 26, 2022)

JRHAWK9 said:


> Back in the early 90's, I paid $9xx per semester at University of Wisconsin - Green Bay and $1,3XX per semester at University of Wisconsin- Milwaukee where I graduated with a BS.  I was completely floored when talking to a co-worker with kids with what they pay now.  I couldn't believe it.  It's criminal.


We were informed at the last faculty meeting that the departments are now paying 400$ a year for every phone/phone line associated with the department.   Faculty were floored.  I don’t see many keeping their phones.  We just switched to VOIP phones last year and I think.  One example of costs that have nothing to do with education.  In general the IT expenses I’m sure have gone through the roof.


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## stoveliker (Aug 26, 2022)

And then to know that national lab overhead rates are far, far worse than university ones...


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## Poindexter (Aug 27, 2022)

Ashful said:


> State schools are a great option,


I fully agree with this, within some rational limits.  At the undergraduate level with common majors, yes.  Stay instate, save your money, and beef up your resume with actual activities outside of school to strengthen your grad school application.

You don't need to go to Harvard (I lived in Boston long enough to have typed "havud.edu" into my browser once upon a time) to get a bachelor's in English.  You can get a bachelor's in English (just to stay on point)  at "square state in the middle. edu" and then spend a couple years teaching inner city kids @square state in the middle to read, and then apply to Havud for your PhD.

When the admissions committee at ivy.edu is looking at PhD applications your couple years teaching underprivileged kids to put on a Shakespearean play is far more important than having a BA from otherivy.edu.

If it is a licensure thing, there is no good reason to not go to state schools.  If you want to be a doctor, it doesn't matter if you go to Princeton or U of square state in the middle.  If you want to be a great doctor you need to pass the licensure exam, and then get your butt in gear keeping up with the science.  The ink on the wall in your waiting room isn't worth two hoots in a rain barrel six weeks after you get it framed.

A degree, even at the PhD level, is really just a license to learn whatever it is you just got a degree in.  You got to run with it, you can't just sit on it.


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## Poindexter (Aug 27, 2022)

You never say hello to you
Until you get it on a redline overload
You never know what you can do 
until you get it up as high as you can go.

Just saying.


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## EbS-P (Aug 27, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> And then to know that national lab overhead rates are far, far worse than university ones...


That’s a concept the general public doesn’t realize.


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## Ashful (Aug 27, 2022)

Prof said:


> I look at this recent action as a better investment in the future than tax breaks for corporations.


Excellent post, Prof.  Very informative.  But I do have to take issue with this one sentiment, as I believe it is the core of nearly every government spending problem we have in this country.  It's not "either/or", cutting spending on tax breaks for corporations doesn't mean we need to rob equal money from the taxpayers, to give to a bunch of people to not pay back the loan to which they've agreed.

There used to be a time when government (and voters) actually considered not spending money, now we've settled for just moving the spending, and calling it "savings".


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## old greybeard (Aug 27, 2022)

Estimates are now up to a trillion, also heard $2000 per taxpayer to fund this. 
What a fool I was to work full time while going to school. And pay my debts off early. 
Great lesson we’ll be teaching.


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## EbS-P (Aug 27, 2022)

You can pay for connections.  My Brother in law has done very well for himself.  Think 100s of millions.    There are opportunities he will tell you he missed because he went the state school route.  It’s what he could afford at the time.  He will be the first to tell you it’s not what you learn it’s the connections that you are paying for.  If you are choosing a field where connections are not important it doesn’t matter.  There are circles he can’t buy his way into.  There are deals he could not make because he didn’t have the pedigree to be present to make them.


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## EbS-P (Aug 27, 2022)

old greybeard said:


> Estimates are now up to a trillion, also heard $2000 per taxpayer to fund this.
> What a fool I was to work full time while going to school. And pay my debts off early.
> Great lesson we’ll be teaching.


Over 10 years.  Or less than some/many people spend on coffee.


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## stoveliker (Aug 27, 2022)

The point is that a full time  job these days doesn't even bring in enough money for what college costs per year. (At least a full time job that a student with no papers qualifying him to do anything.)

One truly can't compare the situation as it is now with what we went through in the 90s.


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## GrumpyDad (Aug 27, 2022)

Ashful said:


> Sorry to start a rant, but after putting myself through school while working full-time, it's hard to sit on this one.
> 
> My past:  Worked full-time for 14 years, while doing a combination of full-time, part-time, and evening college.  Started in 1993, received BS in 2004, and MS in 2007.  Worked full-time to pay for my schooling for all of that period, excepting two 9-month windows when school had to take priority.  Never took a single dime in student loans, and my parents did not pay for my schooling.
> 
> So now, I'm being asked to pay thru my taxes, for those who took an easier path, and now feel they shouldn't have to pay back what they borrowed?  That's awful hard to stomach.  What about the poor folks who have already scraped to pay back what they owed, and now have to (on top of what they've already paid) pay for someone else's borrowing, through their taxes?  Unacceptable.


Stop voting for lunatics who believe they can print a utopia


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## stoveliker (Aug 27, 2022)

I'm sorry, but again, things are being compared that are not equal.

College cost has risen far far faster than  income. I'd be glad if my kids go to college with the financial consequences of the 90s.

Maybe we should vote for folks who see the value in educating the people, and don't only pay lipservice to that but put their dollar to it.

I.e. that solve the problem so starting citizens don't start with a "college mortgage" to lay off. It remains a dumb idea to fix the symptom (cancel debt) when the debt accumulation is not being addressed.


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## brenndatomu (Aug 27, 2022)

They used to teach basic household finances in high school...but very rarely now


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## Prof (Aug 27, 2022)

Ashful said:


> Excellent post, Prof.  Very informative.  But I do have to take issue with this one sentiment, as I believe it is the core of nearly every government spending problem we have in this country.  It's not "either/or", cutting spending on tax breaks for corporations doesn't mean we need to rob equal money from the taxpayers, to give to a bunch of people to not pay back the loan to which they've agreed.
> 
> There used to be a time when government (and voters) actually considered not spending money, now we've settled for just moving the spending, and calling it "savings".


Good point, I didn't mean to create a false dichotomy--the loan forgiveness and tax breaks are not related. The thing that worries me about any debt forgiveness is if there has been any behavioral change on the part of the borrower. I work with grad students who often have nicer cars, computers, phones, etc. than I do. So when they graduate with 200K plus in loans it is unfortunate, but largely self-inflicted. If the debt is forgiven, but people have a debt mentality, not much is accomplished. I guess the economy gets a bit of a bump with new spending, but this is temporary. There is something to be said for living within your means--including choosing better options for college choice (or even the choice to not go).


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## Ashful (Aug 27, 2022)

Prof said:


> There is something to be said for living within your means--including choosing better options for college choice (or even the choice to not go).


That’s what it boils down to.  It’s no secret I’ve done well, but I still have some of the less expensive vehicles in my social circle(s), and I’m the only one I know who has paid off two mortgages on two homes in 10 years each.  Watching those who drive a car more expensive than anything I’d ever dream of spending, or spend more per month on clothing or coffee than I do in a year or three, complain about the struggle of paying off their student loan debt, is more than a little frustrating.  I can’t help but believe there was a time in the past when such luxuries came only AFTER satisfying obligations.

But I know that’s only a fraction of those carrying this debt.  Others are scraping, and still having trouble making ends meet.  I do wonder what fraction if this group are those who foolishly spent borrowed money on un-profitable degrees.  Not that I want to hold anyone back from their dream of being a literature, music, or history major, we all have our dreams and hobbies, myself included.

But I do have an issue with being asked to pay for it.  I’m not the Medici, and your kid isn’t Michelangelo.


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## EbS-P (Aug 27, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> I'm sorry, but again, things are being compared that are not equal.
> 
> College cost has risen far far faster than  income. I'd be glad if my kids go to college with the financial consequences of the 90s.
> 
> ...


This^  !


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## Montanalocal (Aug 27, 2022)

Under normal conditions, debt forgiveness is treated by the tax code as income.  Will this debt forgiveness be treated thusly?


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## bholler (Aug 28, 2022)

Ashful said:


> That’s what it boils down to.  It’s no secret I’ve done well, but I still have some of the less expensive vehicles in my social circle(s), and I’m the only one I know who has paid off two mortgages on two homes in 10 years each.  Watching those who drive a car more expensive than anything I’d ever dream of spending, or spend more per month on clothing or coffee than I do in a year or three, complain about the struggle of paying off their student loan debt, is more than a little frustrating.  I can’t help but believe there was a time in the past when such luxuries came only AFTER satisfying obligations.
> 
> But I know that’s only a fraction of those carrying this debt.  Others are scraping, and still having trouble making ends meet.  I do wonder what fraction if this group are those who foolishly spent borrowed money on un-profitable degrees.  Not that I want to hold anyone back from their dream of being a literature, music, or history major, we all have our dreams and hobbies, myself included.
> 
> But I do have an issue with being asked to pay for it.  I’m not the Medici, and your kid isn’t Michelangelo.


You also have to look at the fact that many degrees including mine in industrial design would have been pretty profitable at the time I started school but by the time I graduated there were very few jobs available in the US in that field.   The same can be said for many other degrees as well.


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## moresnow (Aug 28, 2022)

One more step down the "stupid" path this country is on.


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## Ashful (Aug 28, 2022)

bholler said:


> You also have to look at the fact that many degrees including mine in industrial design would have been pretty profitable at the time I started school but by the time I graduated there were very few jobs available in the US in that field.   The same can be said for many other degrees as well.


Good point, and something that really keeps me awake at night now, thinking about what professions my children may choose.  I fully expect a revolutionary change in the white-collar workforce, more disruptive even than what happened to the blue collars when we were kids.  Artificial intelligence is going to replace or heavily augment so many of the professions for which people are going to college, now.

But don't let that ruin my good rant.


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## old greybeard (Aug 29, 2022)

bholler said:


> You also have to look at the fact that many degrees including mine in industrial design would have been pretty profitable at the time I started school but by the time I graduated there were very few jobs available in the US in that field.   The same can be said for many other degrees as well.


And there are a ton a people getting degrees that have little to no value when they started the degree program and then graduated. For years I hired people for TV entry level jobs, overwhelming numbers of communication graduates. Most from State Colleges. Most should have been working in shirt or car part factories, If we hadn’t shipped them to China for the slaves to work in. 
Some of the slowest people I ever met. But mommy and daddy and society said they had to have a degree. And the competition and desire to break into broadcasting kept the wages down. $10 to start until recently, now up to $15. And this is in a top 40 market. And now we have to pay for their stupidity. 
Meanwhile HVAC, Auto tech, and hands on dirty, high paying jobs in our area, are desperate for workers.


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## bholler (Aug 29, 2022)

old greybeard said:


> And there are a ton a people getting degrees that have little to no value when they started the degree program and then graduated. For years I hired people for TV entry level jobs, overwhelming numbers of communication graduates. Most from State Colleges. Most should have been working in shirt or car part factories, If we hadn’t shipped them to China for the slaves to work in.
> Some of the slowest people I ever met. But mommy and daddy and society said they had to have a degree. And the competition and desire to break into broadcasting kept the wages down. $10 to start until recently, now up to $15. And this is in a top 40 market. And now we have to pay for their stupidity.
> Meanwhile HVAC, Auto tech, and hands on dirty, high paying jobs in our area, are desperate for workers.


That is absolutely true.  Many people do get degrees with little hope of getting a job in their field.  But there are plenty of jobs that you simply won't be eligible for without a degree.  As far as hands on jobs many of them expect either experience or training as well though.  And even the cost of trade schools has risen sharply


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## festerw (Aug 29, 2022)

bholler said:


> You also have to look at the fact that many degrees including mine in industrial design would have been pretty profitable at the time I started school but by the time I graduated there were very few jobs available in the US in that field.   The same can be said for many other degrees as well.



I fell into this category as well. Degree in IT, completed in 03 so after the tech bubble burst.

Ended up being a Teamster janitor at PSU making well above what I would have with my degree in the region. By the time IT recovered my knowledge was out of date and (mostly) useless.

Like someone else mentioned earlier the overwhelming issue with student loans is the interest, kids are getting buried with it and that seems to be the biggest complaint from them. I've got coworkers who have been paying for 15 years and only managed to make a small dent in the actual principle of the loan.

You also have to consider you're asking 18 year olds to be responsible for basically an open checkbook for school costs, while there are some that are there's a majority that aren't responsible. You're also never going to be able to find a part time job to cover the majority of your tuition costs like you could 30 years ago, hell even a lot of full time jobs won't.

This problem doesn't only exist in colleges either. You've got parents going into debt to send their kids to private elementary/high schools, you've got newly enlisted soldiers buying $60k trucks at 15% interest, the list goes on.


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## EbS-P (Aug 29, 2022)

Ashful said:


> That’s what it boils down to.  It’s no secret I’ve done well, but I still have some of the less expensive vehicles in my social circle(s), and I’m the only one I know who has paid off two mortgages on two homes in 10 years each.  Watching those who drive a car more expensive than anything I’d ever dream of spending, or spend more per month on clothing or coffee than I do in a year or three, complain about the struggle of paying off their student loan debt, is more than a little frustrating.  I can’t help but believe there was a time in the past when such luxuries came only AFTER satisfying obligations.
> 
> But I know that’s only a fraction of those carrying this debt.  Others are scraping, and still having trouble making ends meet.  I do wonder what fraction if this group are those who foolishly spent borrowed money on un-profitable degrees.  Not that I want to hold anyone back from their dream of being a literature, music, or history major, we all have our dreams and hobbies, myself included.
> 
> But I do have an issue with being asked to pay for it.  I’m not the Medici, and your kid isn’t Michelangelo.


There have always been services we pay for that we don’t use.  Roads we don’t drive on. Programs we are not eligible for,  or just don’t utilize.    Going down line item by line item of a tax payer funded budget just isn’t worth it for me.

College builds basic skills.  It’s not, with the exception of nursing and teaching (and other degrees that have some practicum component) training you for a specific job.   There still exists a healthy bit of on the job training that should happen.  The accreditation process for new degrees and programs likely is much slower than the evolving job market.  We graduate a lot of bio and marine bio majors.   It took us 5 years to get a costal engineering program on the book and a total of 7years to graduate students.   

 business schools have more direct pipelines and direct applications of course work to job work.  their training is based around the generic widget.   I don’t buy many of those these days
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






festerw said:


> I fell into this category as well. Degree in IT, completed in 03 so after the tech bubble burst.
> 
> Ended up being a Teamster janitor at PSU making well above what I would have with my degree in the region. By the time IT recovered my knowledge was out of date and (mostly) useless.
> 
> ...


Appears we have a banking issue. “ We are happy to lend you more money than you can ever reasonably pay back”


----------



## old greybeard (Aug 29, 2022)

bholler said:


> That is absolutely true.  Many people do get degrees with little hope of getting a job in their field.  But there are plenty of jobs that you simply won't be eligible for without a degree.  As far as hands on jobs many of them expect either experience or training as well though.  And even the cost of trade schools has risen sharply


Vo-tech is free. My sil teaches at a local vo tech. They’ve turned into a dumping ground for students with learning disabilities. The hvac, Auto tech, plumbing, auto body classes aren’t filled. When I graduated you couldn’t get in vo tech without good grades, had a waiting list. 
The hvac company we use will train on the job. As will the true unions, carpenters, plumbers. Capitol police in hbg just advertised paid  intenships, 40k a year, they pay for your HAAC training while in the payed program. Can’t get workers.


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## old greybeard (Aug 29, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> Over 10 years.  Or less than some/many people spend on coffee.


Please show where they actually have a plan to finance this trillion over 10 years. Meanwhile we pay interest on the debt WE assume. I guarantee there s no financially sound plan to pay for this. 
Pandering. 
Destroying the dollar and the savings of those of us who are responsible.


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## bholler (Aug 29, 2022)

old greybeard said:


> Vo-tech is free. My sil teaches at a local vo tech. They’ve turned into a dumping ground for students with learning disabilities. The hvac, Auto tech, plumbing, auto body classes aren’t filled. When I graduated you couldn’t get in vo tech without good grades, had a waiting list.
> The hvac company we use will train on the job. As will the true unions, carpenters, plumbers. Capitol police in hbg just advertised paid  intenships, 40k a year, they pay for your HAAC training while in the payed program. Can’t get workers.


Well vo-tech isn't free it is tax payer funded just like some want for higher education.  But you are absolutely correct it has turned into. A dumping ground.  And I have hired kids straight out of the vo-tech masonry course it honestly doesn't teach what is actually needed to do the job.  And in some cases it was harder to retrain them than it would have been to just start from scratch. 

It's really a shame that program isn't being used to it's potential.


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## bholler (Aug 29, 2022)

old greybeard said:


> Please show where they actually have a plan to finance this trillion over 10 years. Meanwhile we pay interest on the debt WE assume. I guarantee there s no financially sound plan to pay for this.
> Pandering.
> Destroying the dollar and the savings of those of us who are responsible.


The same can be said for every line item on the budget regardless of which side supports that spending.   Again I don't support this idea but there are also many things our country has and still is spending billions on that I think are even more of a waste.


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## Ashful (Aug 29, 2022)

re:  vo-tech.  Amen to both of you, this was the case even in 1990, when I was considering this option.  I had a lot of friends who went that direction, and more of them were there due to either disciplinary issues or an idea they couldn't cut the regular curriculum, than because they had any real passion for their program.

This is completely backwards thinking, the opportunity to go to vo-tech should be a privilege for those few who know what they want to do at that young age, not a dumping ground for poor students to goof off.

As a side note, my grandfather was flunked out of vo-tech for blacksmithing around 1930, he says because he was too wussy to grab iron out of the forge (by the "cooler" end) with his bare hands.  I guess things were different, back then.  He was a kind, but tough-as-nails 70-year old life-long plumber, in my recollection of him.


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## PaulOinMA (Aug 29, 2022)

I also disagree with forgiving student loans for the many reasons already stated here.

My wife and I are already currently funding scholarships at both schools we attended.   We have also signed agreements to leave them both money to continue funding the scholarships after we have passed.

I went to Yale for graduate school ...

Yale undergraduates protesting and occupying the financial aid office because they are required to work a few hours a week for their scholarship. Working deprives them of the opportunity to fully “engage in the social activities that Yale promises as part of the university experience” tuition-paying students experience.









						Yale students arrested during sit-in protest over financial aid
					

NEW HAVEN — Approximately 20 Yale University students were arrested  after they refused...




					www.nhregister.com
				




Yale graduate student protesting that her graduate student stipend (her PAY to get an education) was being cut in her seventh (!) year of graduate school. A Yale dean responded that Yale graduate students receive unsurpassed support, totaling $437,000 through six years. Maybe it’s time to graduate and get a job?









						Forum: Yale’s decision to cut graduate teacher pay shameful
					

[...] the system is now such that the most experienced graduate teachers in the History...




					www.nhregister.com
				












						Forum: Graduate students at Yale receive unsurpassed support
					

Another fact that surprises many: the Yale Graduate School pays for comprehensive health...




					www.nhregister.com


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## SpaceBus (Aug 29, 2022)

"I suffered, so others should have to suffer as well!" 
That's how you sound. Wasn't the whole point to make things better for your descendants? Sometimes the ancestral ways are not better.


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## stoveliker (Aug 29, 2022)

I do agree that there are many folks in (a 4 yr) college that have no business being there (and thus rack up debt for no reason).

I think a fairly significant fraction of debt could be avoided by having a working array of options that lead students to useful skills, i.e. 4 yr colleges, a useful Bachelor's degree (I note that in the medical field more and more jobs (nursing) require a Masters degree), vocational schools with specific and economically valuable skills (heat pump, battery, transportation), and NOT all wanting 4 years because that makes it "look good" (i.e. if you know enough in 2 years, be done with it, and give the diploma). The emphasis here is on getting as many people into a 4 yr college, and in making them appealing, decking those colleges out with incredible facilities (that do mostly not serve the educational purpose), is driving up costs. A down-to-earth approach where schools teach skills and don't engage in other activities (and their shiny facilities) is a better thing imo. 

Students (young adults) have never been unable to find their entertainment. Things will pop up without schools being the main financial channel through which extracurricular activities are being offered. Schools should focus on the curriculum.

That's the $0.02 of a person who went to school until he was 29, in another country, but who had a (joint) prof. position at a state 4 yr college in the US.


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## Ashful (Aug 29, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> "I suffered, so others should have to suffer as well!"
> That's how you sound. Wasn't the whole point to make things better for your descendants? Sometimes the ancestral ways are not better.


Not at all.  Things are inarguably better.  This is simply about honoring your obligations, and following through, to do what you already promised.

Your thinking on this matter is a great example of the problem itself, not a solution.



stoveliker said:


> Students (young adults) have never been unable to find their entertainment.


lol... well said!


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## festerw (Aug 29, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> Students (young adults) have never been unable to find their entertainment. Things will pop up without schools being the main financial channel through which extracurricular activities are being offered. Schools should focus on the curriculum.



That's not necessarily a good thing. I've seen and cleaned up the aftermath of students finding their own fun.


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## brenndatomu (Aug 29, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> "I suffered, so others should have to suffer as well!"
> That's how you sound. Wasn't the whole point to make things better for your descendants? Sometimes the ancestral ways are not better.


There is value in having went through the struggle to make your own way too.


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## stoveliker (Aug 29, 2022)

But that struggle these days is far worse than back then. Far more money involved. You can't compare.


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## bholler (Aug 29, 2022)

As I said before I absolutely don't agree with wiping out all the dept people agreed to take on.  But the prices are just crazy now and something needs to be done for sure


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## Shank (Aug 29, 2022)

The whole idea is ridiculous for multiple reasons.

-$10,000 won't even touch most peoples debt. 
-As already covered, this is something the borrower agreed to.
-There are plenty of options to have manageable tuition.  I believe the university I attended was approximately $10,000 a year.  I chose a local college and commuted.
-A lot of students are wasting money and time obtaining degrees that are nearly worthless.

Really it's a cultural thing that is flawed.  Everyone goes to college because it is the thing to do.  A lot of students I graduated high school with went places solely based on sports or friends.  It was uncommon for them to even know what they want to go for (why go if you don't know what you want to major in?)  Many of them switched to easier majors that did think they knew what they wanted to go for.

I graduated roughly 3 years ago from college.  I was very interested in pursuing a trade, but researched and determined the cost of college was worth it for me.  I may not have broken even yet based on cost of tuition (not much with scholarships) and cost of lost time at work, but I am nearing that.


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## bholler (Aug 29, 2022)

Shank0668 said:


> The whole idea is ridiculous for multiple reasons.
> 
> -$10,000 won't even touch most peoples debt.
> -As already covered, this is something the borrower agreed to.
> ...


That depends what you are going to school for.   For some majors  absolutely state schools are a good option.  Others it simply isnt


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## Shank (Aug 29, 2022)

bholler said:


> That depends what you are going to school for.   For some majors  absolutely state schools are a good option.  Others it simply isnt


While true, that is a factor that can be calculated prior to the commitment.


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## bholler (Aug 29, 2022)

Shank0668 said:


> While true, that is a factor that can be calculated prior to the commitment.


Yes of course.  But even many state schools are over $20000 a year now for residents.  Again the costs are just out of hand


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## Shank (Aug 29, 2022)

bholler said:


> Yes of course.  But even many state schools are over $20000 a year now for residents.


Which is quite ridiculous, that I will not disagree with you on.  I can say that if I absolutely had to pay that, even without scholarships, it may have still been worth it for my degree.  I would have had to really think about that though.


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## bholler (Aug 29, 2022)

Shank0668 said:


> Which is quite ridiculous, that I will not disagree with you on.  I can say that if I absolutely had to pay that, even without scholarships, it may have still been worth it for my degree.  I would have had to really think about that though.


Oh I don't really think that is a crazy price at all for a decent private school.   But it's crazy for a state school.


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## Shank (Aug 29, 2022)

bholler said:


> Oh I don't really think that is a crazy price at all for a decent private school.   But it's crazy for a state school.


What is the point that that would be worth it, salary wise?  It would at least have to start near six figures upon graduation.


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## festerw (Aug 29, 2022)

Because my niece just started. PSU for in state is just under $16k/year. Not including books, parking, or housing/food costs. Add another $7k a year at least for living on campus.

20 years ago that would have been 2 years worth.


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## bholler (Aug 29, 2022)

Shank0668 said:


> What is the point that that would be worth it, salary wise?  It would at least have to start near six figures upon graduation.


I honestly don't know I never put that much thought into it.


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## old greybeard (Aug 29, 2022)

society/government does have responsibilities in this crisis. Easy money, little oversight, no guidance,  lots of parallels to the mortgage crisis in 2008. 
And those who preach financial responsibility, who “suffered” and made their children “suffer” by having to work thru school, or the military, are tired of paying for the lack of planning and discipline of others. 
Doesn’t mean we are without compassion, but its for those who are true victims. 
If mommy and daddy never made Bobby uncomfortable, and celebrated every time he received a participant trophy its on them for letting the village raise their child. They probably also didn’t set examples of fiscal discipline. 
Nothing new here, same ancient issues in a new wrap.


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## stoveliker (Aug 29, 2022)

I lived like an undergrad student for the first 3 years after I started pulling a salary.

That allowed me to create an emergency fund that 95 percent of people here don't have. My own personal insurance, first thing right off the bat. (Because college was cheap for me, see below.)

Do that, and it is feasible to pay off a debt that is about a yearly salary before committing to "adult life" (home, kids, decent car etc )


So, going to college and getting a 60k$ starting salary when done, I'd be ok with a 60k$ in debt for the full cost of college (i.e. including the dorm and food etc.)

That'd be my "acceptable" range.
That also means that if you study for an English major and get to be teacher (but not in NYS...), you should not be forced to rack up 60k$ in debt. I.e. degrees not worth much *economically* should not cost that much.
And it also means that frugality as a student makes you get a decent car ,or better a home, sooner.

Bottom line, one yearly starting salary.
Noting that's still likely 30 percent of a mortgage. So it's not nothing.
Just live.like a student for a few more years. That's overseeable, and doable. Knock it out quickly and get on with life.


In the old country where I come from they are arguing about increasing tuition by 100 vs 200 euros (due to inflation). No dorm, meal plans involved. 2350 euro per year or so. The rest is taxpayer funded (i.e. the well-off people like me would pay more, which is fine imo.)


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## SpaceBus (Aug 29, 2022)

$10,000 should cover most trade schools and maybe even a decent chunk of tools. Isn't that what you all suggest people do, work in trades?


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## Highbeam (Aug 29, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> But that struggle these days is far worse than back then. Far more money involved. You can't compare.



I keep hearing you write that but I am currently funding my daughter's senior year a the best state school in WA, the University of Washington, and undergrad tuition is just $12,000 per year. She, like I, gained a 2 year degree from a community college before transferring to university. When I paid for my university degree decades ago it was cheaper but not by much. Is it that these people with huge debt loads are graduate students, out of state, or racked up huge housing bills?

Either way, you racked up the bills so you owe the money. I would be all for reducing university costs as a solution that would apply to all students going forward.


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## stoveliker (Aug 29, 2022)

That is tuition. Not the cost (dorm,meal plans, fees,  etc.) All for things that do not constitute education.


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## SpaceBus (Aug 29, 2022)

Why not make all public universities free? They are already getting subsidized government money, plus the federal government insured loans.


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## Ashful (Aug 29, 2022)

Wow, great discussion, guys.  I especially appreciated @Shank0668 's perspective as a recent graduate, and really loved this post by @old greybeard:



old greybeard said:


> Doesn’t mean we are without compassion, but its for those who are true victims.
> If mommy and daddy never made Bobby uncomfortable, and celebrated every time he received a participant trophy its on them for letting the village raise their child. They probably also didn’t set examples of fiscal discipline.
> Nothing new here, same ancient issues in a new wrap.



Here's another inconvenient truth:



Shank0668 said:


> There are plenty of options to have manageable tuition.
> -A lot of students are wasting money and time obtaining degrees that are nearly worthless.
> 
> A lot of students I graduated high school with went places solely based on sports or friends.



I became much more aware of this last point when I went back to school full-time in my late 20's, surrounded by a bunch of 18 year olds.  Blame the parents, if you don't want to blame the kids, it doesn't change the truth of these statements.



Shank0668 said:


> While true, that is a factor that can be calculated prior to the commitment.


Exactly.  This is really what this all boils down to.  When people were blaming the banks for offering them mortgages they couldn't afford, I remembered my own self-discipline at age 23, in not buying the biggest house the bank told me I could afford.  People need to be held accountable for their own stupid decisions, and stop blaming the enablers, who will always be there.



Shank0668 said:


> What is the point that that would be worth it, salary wise?  It would at least have to start near six figures upon graduation.


My first salary after graduation was $137,177, scaled to 2022 dollars, and it only went up from there.  I'm not doing what I love, but it's tolerable, and I chose a career that I knew would pay off.

Rough numbers, if I couldn't pay back what I had borrowed within 6 - 8 years of graduation, I'd say I had made some bad choices in my vocation or schooling.  At some point, most folks want to get on with buying a house and having a family, and not dealing with student debt.  But the choice is yours, in what major you choose, where you attend, and what debt you take on in that pursuit.


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## bholler (Aug 29, 2022)

Ashful said:


> Wow, great discussion, guys.  I especially appreciated @Shank0668 's perspective as a recent graduate, and really loved this post by @old greybeard:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And it's great you were able to get a job paying that much.  My first job out of college was in corporate product design paying about $25000.   Luckily I didn't have any debt so it wasn't really a problem.  But many did and those were about the only jobs available at the time.  And there simply are not many entry level jobs that pay that well.


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## Shank (Aug 29, 2022)

Ashful said:


> Wow, great discussion, guys.  I especially appreciated @Shank0668 's perspective as a recent graduate, and really loved this post by @old greybeard:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I bought my house around 23 as well.  I remember a comment from my boss about how he couldn’t believe I bought such a cheap house and that surely I would be making more soon anyway (which I am, about 30% more than then, and also have a wife now that has a good paying job). The way I saw it, I didn’t want to have to try to live on what I might make.


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## Ashful (Aug 29, 2022)

bholler said:


> And it's great you were able to get a job paying that much.  My first job out of college was in corporate product design paying about $25000.


Do note, I wasn't making nearly the number I listed, I scaled for inflation.

And that was my first year out of an MSEE program, in my mid-30's.  I worked thru my teens, twenties, and early thirties at anywhere from minimum wage to half that figure.  Hence, why I had made the decision to finally kick my own butt to finish school, a little bit later in life than most, to get out of that rut.

But this is all aside from the point.  I think @Shank0668 has already made my own point better than me, in saying you need to look at what you're spending, what it will yield, and make your own decision.  Then live with it and honor it, good or bad, it was your decision.

And I don't disagree at all with you, bholler.  The price of higher education is atrocious.  But I think that issue will correct itself.  If our government could just leave things alone, a generation will have learned where poor value lies, and not allow so many kids in the next generation to repeat the same stupid mistake(s).  But you and I will always disagree on my "anyone" to your "everyone" view of the world.  That's fine, we get along well enough, otherwise.


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## bholler (Aug 29, 2022)

Ashful said:


> Do note, I wasn't making nearly the number I listed, I scaled for inflation.
> 
> And that was my first year out of an MSEE program, in my mid-30's.  I worked thru my teens, twenties, and early thirties at anywhere from minimum wage to half that figure.  Hence, why I had made the decision to finally kick my own butt to finish school, a little bit later in life than most, to get out of that rut.


Yes I noticed that you scaled it


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## Highbeam (Aug 29, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> That is tuition. Not the cost (dorm,meal plans, fees,  etc.) All for things that do not constitute education.


Yeah, those optional costs were zero for me and my daughter and others that chose not to incur them. We just lived at home and commuted to school.


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## stoveliker (Aug 29, 2022)

Highbeam said:


> Yeah, those costs were zero for me and my daughter and others that chose not to incur them.



That is not an option here. At least for the first year.


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## Highbeam (Aug 29, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> That is not an option here. At least for the first year.


But is attending a community college an option? In my case the state paid that community college tuition bill since we were both (daughter and myself) still in high school. Graduate with a diploma and 2 year degree at the same time. 

Or is college just for the party? And this huge debt related to inefficiency?


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## stoveliker (Aug 29, 2022)

That won't work well for every field. 

And no, I did not party. I worked and got done without debt and then paid for my own wedding. And then we lived a few more years as students.


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## brenndatomu (Aug 29, 2022)

Highbeam said:


> Or is college just for the party?


It is for half the kids...maybe 2/3...pay your own dang (squandered) college bill punk! And stay off my lawn!


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## bholler (Aug 29, 2022)

Highbeam said:


> But is attending a community college an option? In my case the state paid that community college tuition bill since we were both (daughter and myself) still in high school. Graduate with a diploma and 2 year degree at the same time.
> 
> Or is college just for the party? And this huge debt related to inefficiency?


The nearest community college is an hour and 15 mins


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## JerseyRobb (Aug 29, 2022)

I did not expect my first reply to be on this. It just happens to be directly tied to my profession in fundraising. I am 35 and work for a top public polytechnic university attempting to bridge the ever-widening gap in public funding. The recent explosion in intuition actually began circa 2009 during the most recent recession. States reduced their funding to their public institutions and never fully replaced the money. Insert inflation and universities became desperate. Some increased fees across the board, some sought to increase revenue by using public grants to grow their athletic system, hoping for NCAA money.  Some built bougie attractions like mini water parks, trying to appeal to those who would otherwise travel to the southern coast for college.  This is what I spend sleepless nights trying to navigate.  When state funding was cut, many community colleges were actually absorbed into the larger state institutions. Meaning for many, a community college was never an option. Now for the bitter opinion of a millennial who will never enjoy social security and medicare. 

We will likely be the first generation unable to collect on these services we contribute to. Those who are the loudest were silent when enormous unfunded tax cats are granted to corporations, and obviously the memes on PPP loans are abundant. The majority who are the loudest are also collectively responsible for the state of the matter by virtue of their votes. This may be the only way younger generations get a chance of a return, since the likelihood of a social security and medicare (As we know them today) are nil. The other way the older generations are responsible is something not often discussed. They established degree requirements for positions where only on the job training was needed, forcing younger people to get degrees. "Don't break your back like I had to" was a common sentiment through the 90's to younger people when discussing career plans. 

It is not as simple as "I am paying for your student loans", it's less accurate than to say that I am paying (as designed) for your retirement, where you will collect more than you ever contributed. I am not a huge fan of across the board reductions, as it does nothing to fix the problem. Although the new payment does make strides to prevent interest from exploding. Remember, student loans can't be discharged in nearly all bankruptcy cases and the interest is sometimes double that of a mortgage rate. 

It is a complicated mess with no single medium able to accurately attest they have the answer. I just submitted my public service loan forgiveness paperwork, with my fingers crossed it goes through. I wish they would change it to be prorated. Anyways, off to make a post about pellet stoves


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## Highbeam (Aug 29, 2022)

bholler said:


> The nearest community college is an hour and 15 mins


That commute becomes your job. I had to sit on a ferry one hour each way every day through the puget sound.


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## ABMax24 (Aug 30, 2022)

A "degree" is not a shortcut for experience or hard work. Unfortunately I feel that many young people feel this is true.

I live in a backwards place in this world, where tradespeople usually  earn more than their University/College educated counterparts. In a recent study, 76% of Canadians don't want to work in the trades. Simply by supply and demand I am paid more because the supply of workers doesn't exist to meet the labour demand. A trade ticket (8 months or less total in school) easily earns $100k/yr, and $150k is attainable if you want to work extra hours, or take the initiative to move into supervision or management.

Why earn $45/hr as a Journeyman, when you can spend 4 years getting an arts degree and make $15/hr flipping burgers?


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## Poindexter (Aug 30, 2022)

I readily agree this is a multifaceted problem that happens to be a hot button for me.

I will make every effort to keep my mouth shut so I can listen and learn.

FWIW I am a diploma RN with two further advanced degrees.  There are folks, other RNs, who have been working shoulder to shoulder with me for 5+ years that cannot explain what I do - because they do not have the education or world view that I have.  My most valuable skill is actually listening to MDs whine about stuff they think no one can fix, understanding the problem, and then explaining  to nursing a thing we should try that might improve patient outcomes.

I am not a wizard or a magician, I have just invested in becoming really really good at what I do.  Working full time all the way through in the 80s and 90s I was able to complete my diploma RN ($12k) and associates in Art (not kidding) (for another $3k) and then a BA in anthropology with a marine science minor at a good state school for another $20k borrowed.  Total I finished with roughly  $40k in debt and I am down to $1,709 payoff balance when the latest foolishness hit.  And I focused on near shore sediment as a Marine Science minor... who else has a minor in 'the beach?'

On the one hand it absolutely yanks my crank to think I have my student loans paid off just in time to have an increased tax bill to start paying everyone else's student loans.

On the other, I look at my four kids and I simply cannot tell them they need a college degree to succeed.  

I have one who earned a welding certification as an associate's degree, with a follow on second associate's a welding inspector.  I have a list of welding shop owners west of the Mississippi who I will personally shiv with a homemade shank (shank with a homemade shiv?) when society collapses because they chose to treat my little girl as an object rather than a fully qualified welder.  We are in the 21st century.  Henry VIII has been dead a really long time.

I have another who failed that one 300 level class three times because she wouldn't give up.  I don't know how much of her student loan debt I need to 'own' because I taught her to be stubborn, but her BS is in technical writing instead of whatever whatever engineering.  She is buried.  $10k, even as non taxed income is a drop in the bucket.  

The other two got their fingers burned with nonchalance in the classroom as freshman.  They have manageable student loan balances but know better than to go back without a firm, viable plan.

I do appreciate all the various commentary.  It does, overall, help me feel like less of a failure as a dad as only one of my four took the bait.

I do agree getting a BA in Poly Sci at Harvard can open to door to doing many many very lucrative deals later.  In general those aren't the sorts of families that burn wood for heat or worry about student loan debt as a personal/ family problem.

I would love to do a PhD in underwater archaeology at Eastern Carolina University.  I have in my briefcase a letter of recommendation to that program from a prof at UNC-CH who is long dead.  I could probably get into the program on that letter alone, filling out my application in crayon, and interviewing hung over.  But it would never pay.  Just the air fills to do any notable academic diving work on the Queen Anne's Revenge would be thousands of dollars.  It would be something to consider if I won a lottery.

I have seriously looked at doing a PhD at Yale in nursing, focusing on decision theory, why do people make bad choices when they are already having bad health effects?  I have my advisory committee picked out, with alternates for every slot; but I already know people mostly make bad choices because of inertia.  This would be my best option of I wake up in a wheelchair a few months after a tragic car accident.

I thought about doing an MSW (Masters of Social Work) at UC-Berkeley , but they want $100k for that 2 year program just for tuition, never mind fees or books or housing.  Is a MSW from Berkeley really worth that price compared to an MSW from U-square state?  I don't think it is.  It would be nice, but two years after graduation what an MSW has done is far more important than the degree on the wall.

I will make every reasonable effort to go back to scribbling in the fly leaf of my copy of Pursuit of Excellence and belay derailing this thread.  Please carry on with my explicit blessing to do so.


----------



## festerw (Aug 30, 2022)

ABMax24 said:


> A "degree" is not a shortcut for experience or hard work. Unfortunately I feel that many young people feel this is true.



My entire high school career (2000 graduate) was spent by older people telling me I HAD to get a degree to get a decent job. There was never a question other than "where are you going to college?" When discussing after HS plans, I watched my classmates that answered something different get berated for wasting their time.

Which is how we ended up with jobs requiring a Master's and only paying $35k/year and skilled trades jobs searching for workers.


----------



## Ashful (Aug 30, 2022)

JerseyRobb said:


> Now for the bitter opinion of a millennial who will never enjoy social security and medicare.
> 
> ...This may be the only way younger generations get a chance of a return, since the likelihood of a social security and medicare (As we know them today) are nil.
> 
> It is not as simple as "I am paying for your student loans", it's less accurate than to say that I am paying (as designed) for your retirement, where you will collect more than you ever contributed.


Interesting post, but you are sadly misinformed and brainwashed on the whole social security situation.  It is very unlikely social security will go away during your lifetime.  Changes to the system will continue as our population and expected lifespan changes, I've watched my own eligibility age go up and up during my working career.  But short of some nation-ending nuclear catastrophe, social security is here to stay.

Lesson:  don't rely on social security.  It never has been, and never will be, a good way to live.  It's a safety net for those who have nothing else, and nothing more.  At your age, I was max'ing out my allowable IRA contributions every year.  Sometimes it meant eating nothing but Ramen noodles that month, but I made it happen, since I knew how compounding interest works.



ABMax24 said:


> A "degree" is not a shortcut for experience or hard work. Unfortunately I feel that many young people feel this is true.
> 
> I live in a backwards place in this world, where tradespeople usually  earn more than their University/College educated counterparts.


I know plenty of tradespeople who make more than me, not that backwards.  These are invariably the guys who went out on their own, started their own small business and grew it, not the schleps happy to just hump shingles up a roof all day.  But the fact remains, I know many tradespeople who do extremely well, especially in the last two years.


----------



## PaulOinMA (Aug 30, 2022)

Shank0668 said:


> The whole idea is ridiculous for multiple reasons.
> 
> -$10,000 won't even touch most peoples debt.



$10k makes a big difference to a lot of people.


32.2% of student borrowers owe $10,000 or less in federal debt; 74.2% owe $40,000 or less.









						Student Loan Debt Statistics [2022]: Average + Total Debt
					

Find student loan debt statistics, including the national debt balance, average individual balance, and annual growth rates.




					educationdata.org


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## SpaceBus (Aug 30, 2022)

Not everyone can stay at mom and dad's for school. Not every town community college has the curriculum for everyone. Some programs, like welding engineering, are only at a few schools. If you want to work in motorsports engineering you have to go to Charlotte NC. Not every program is available at every school, you guys treat them like they are all identical. My local four year university has a very limited course catalog, just as an example. So if you you are born in Downeast Maine and want an undergrad degree that is *not* business, biology, or art related, you are SOL if you want to save money by staying at home. 

So many of you are cherry picking the most ideal circumstances. Plus a lot of you are boomers who had a vastly different economy. I'm seeing many Gen X comments as well, and still a different economy than my generation walked into in 2008-09. There were 50 year old folks with masters degrees working shoulder to shoulder with me at a Wendy's at seventeen years old. The world is not black and white, but I will agree some students were poorly advised by greedy schools into curriculum the students didn't really need or want. What is not being said is that my generation was told that unless we want to flip burgers or put money in a register our whole lives we HAD to go to a university. We were all but forced into college, and then came to find that it's not really making things better. 

If you build something yourself, and it doesn't work out, who's fault is it? If a whole generation of children entered the workforce unready, who's fault is that? Unbelievable that millennials and younger generations somehow are not a product of the sins of our fathers, like every other generation before and instead it is all our fault. Do you men really think that multiple generations really just love debt and want a lifetime of struggle? When will you come to terms with the system is broken, not your children?


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## SpaceBus (Aug 30, 2022)

ABMax24 said:


> A "degree" is not a shortcut for experience or hard work. Unfortunately I feel that many young people feel this is true.
> 
> I live in a backwards place in this world, where tradespeople usually  earn more than their University/College educated counterparts. In a recent study, 76% of Canadians don't want to work in the trades. Simply by supply and demand I am paid more because the supply of workers doesn't exist to meet the labour demand. A trade ticket (8 months or less total in school) easily earns $100k/yr, and $150k is attainable if you want to work extra hours, or take the initiative to move into supervision or management.
> 
> Why earn $45/hr as a Journeyman, when you can spend 4 years getting an arts degree and make $15/hr flipping burgers?



Do you really think that every unemployed college graduate has an art degree? Are you also implying that art degrees are worthless in an increasingly media controlled world? Artists make all of the media that we consume. College students were told for the last 20+ years that we would be nothing without a degree and you can't make it on working alone. Do you really think people just like spending tens of thousands of dollar and four or more years of their lives to make $15/hr? As if they did it for no reason.


----------



## JerseyRobb (Aug 30, 2022)

Ashful said:


> Interesting post, but you are sadly misinformed and brainwashed on the whole social security situation.  It is very unlikely social security will go away during your lifetime.  Changes to the system will continue as our population and expected lifespan changes, I've watched my own eligibility age go up and up during my working career.  But short of some nation-ending nuclear


I specifically said "as we know know them today".  It is not brainwashing, the plan was always a sort of pyramid scheme requiring a healthy size next generation. The age will likely need to increase again soon. 

Starting off a paragraph by saying "lesson" when you have no idea about the background of the individual is disrespectful at best.  It shows you're not open to listening to what others say when you use such verbiage with strangers. 

While I owe no one information about myself, I have a healthy retirement plan, several lots of land and biggest of all *no kids* ha ha ha. We could likely retire when I'm 45 and maintain the same lifestyle thanks to some books my husband has published. Having multiple ways to heat our lake house is part of my neurotic need for backup plans. 

I do find it interesting how you chose to ignore the substantive portion directly relevant to the topic of why so many student loans exist.


----------



## JerseyRobb (Aug 30, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> Do you really think that every unemployed college graduate has an art degree? Are you also implying that art degrees are worthless in an increasingly media controlled world? Artists make all of the media that we consume. College students were told for the last 20+ years that we would be nothing without a degree and you can't make it on working alone. Do you really think people just like spending tens of thousands of dollar and four or more years of their lives to make $15/hr? As if they did it for no reason.


So much this. I work at one of the top ranked R1 polytechnic universities in the country. 

The number of engineering firms expecting new structural, Mechanical and architectural engineers to work for $40k per year (in the NYC Metro) for the first 5 years at 60+hrs a week is pathetic. 

They have to put off paying their loans so the interest explodes over those years as they "play by the rules" and their debt nearly doubles.

I come from the land of dirt roads and intersections without stop signs. People leave those places due to a lack of opportunity. The prior generations made degrees prerequisites for positions that only require on the job training. Then they laugh at people struggling to accomplish it. It saddens me.

-Fundraising professional for a stem university


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## JerseyRobb (Aug 30, 2022)

Highbeam said:


> But is attending a community college an option? In my case the state paid that community college tuition bill since we were both (daughter and myself) still in high school. Graduate with a diploma and 2 year degree at the same time.
> 
> Or is college just for the party? And this huge debt related to inefficiency?


Community colleges have been consolidating over the last 15 years since states reduced funding during the last recession. I am fortunate to live near several, but many across the nation are not so lucky. Pennsylvania for example, previously had more scattered across the state, but they slowly became PSU satellite campuses and tuition quadrupled.


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## JerseyRobb (Aug 30, 2022)

Poindexter said:


> I readily agree this is a multifaceted problem that happens to be a hot button for me.
> 
> I will make every effort to keep my mouth shut so I can listen and learn.
> 
> ...


Side rant...
I hate how diploma programs have slowly died out.  Many that exist are barely accredited with horrible NCLEX pass rates.


----------



## Ashful (Aug 30, 2022)

JerseyRobb said:


> I do find it interesting how you chose to ignore the substantive portion directly relevant to the topic of why so many student loans exist.


Oh, I didn't ignore it.  I actually thought that was good information, an overall good post, and I'm sorry for not saying it.

I was only responding to the portion that was in error, namely beginning with, "opinion of a millennial who will never enjoy social security and medicare," followed by two more mentions of it.  I am sorry that I missed a subsequent qualifier of "(as we known it)", you had not applied that to your initial statement on the subject.

The plan is not as simple as a pyramid scheme, but yes, it has problems.  We all  know it has problems, and frankly always has.  But at the same time, please don't try to sell us on being, "a millennial who will never enjoy social security and medicare."  These were your exact words, and this is simply untrue.


----------



## Ashful (Aug 30, 2022)

JerseyRobb said:


> Community colleges have been consolidating over the last 15 years since states reduced funding during the last recession. I am fortunate to live near several, but many across the nation are not so lucky. Pennsylvania for example, previously had more scattered across the state, but they slowly became PSU satellite campuses and tuition quadrupled.


This is unfortunate.  I both hire and mentor occasional young engineers and engineering students, and I've been really impressed over the last ten years, how it has actually become more common for them to complete their first two years at a community college, before moving on to finish at a 4-year university, than it was when I was that age.  It's a really smart plan, for avoiding unnecessary debt, while completing obligatory math and literature credits.

I can tell you this was much less common among those I knew 30 years ago.  Back then, with a few notable exceptions, it seemed community college was mostly a road to nowhere, a holding pen for those who failed to make any other plans.  Only one or two of my two dozen classmates that went to the local community college ended up going on to finish the originally-planned 4-year degree.


----------



## Shank (Aug 30, 2022)

JerseyRobb said:


> So much this. I work at one of the top ranked R1 polytechnic universities in the country.
> 
> The number of engineering firms expecting new structural, Mechanical and architectural engineers to work for $40k per year (in the NYC Metro) for the first 5 years at 60+hrs a week is pathetic.
> 
> ...


This is quite surprising, coming from an area with a way lower cost of living, the engineers in my class all started a fair amount higher than that.


----------



## JerseyRobb (Aug 30, 2022)

Ashful said:


> Oh, I didn't ignore it.  I actually thought that was good information, an overall good post, and I'm sorry for not saying it.
> 
> I was only responding to the portion that was in error, namely beginning with, "opinion of a millennial who will never enjoy social security and medicare," followed by two more mentions of it.  I am sorry that I missed a subsequent qualifier of "(as we known it)", you had not applied that to your initial statement on the subject.
> 
> The plan is not as simple as a pyramid scheme, but yes, it has problems.  We all  know it has problems, and frankly always has.  But at the same time, please don't try to sell us on being, "a millennial who will never enjoy social security and medicare."  These were your exact words, and this is simply untrue.









The social security trust fund balance has been leveling off since around 2008. You are right, I should have added the qualifier each time I said it. Direct link to SSA website showing both the OASDI and DI trust funds with low to high risk factor projections. It also shows what is needed to postpone likely insolvency and we should be doing it now, but we are not. Which is why I didn't really spend too much time qualifying my comment. Without policy changes the combined funds are headed to insolvency by the time I would be eligible to collect.


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## SpaceBus (Aug 30, 2022)

Shank0668 said:


> This is quite surprising, coming from an area with a way lower cost of living, the engineers in my class all started a fair amount higher than that.


You know where all of the engineers from your graduating class went and what they did? I know many undergrad engineering students who were thrilled for $50k/yr starting, which is a joke if you had to move to another state for that career path/education. When you look up wages, they are MEAN wages, not median. There could be just a few outliers pushing that average up well over what it should be, thus falsely inflating the presumed starting wages for an undergraduate. Even if the MEDIAN yearly wages for a 4yr engineering student were $66k, 50% of new students would be making LESS. 
There's a lot of college grads on this thread, remember your statistics.


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## Ashful (Aug 30, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> If a whole generation of children entered the workforce unready, who's fault is that?


A whole generation of children have not entered the workforce unready.  I have hired and worked with many young competent, and frankly brilliant, engineers.  Any fraction of those entering the workforce unready may not be much different today, than in the past.



SpaceBus said:


> Unbelievable that millennials and younger generations somehow are not a product of the sins of our fathers, like every other generation before and instead it is all our fault.  Do you men really think that multiple generations really just love debt and want a lifetime of struggle?


Not at all.  It is as much a fault of the parents.  But in the end, students signed loan agreements as adults, and are therefore obligated to repay them.



SpaceBus said:


> When will you come to terms with the system is broken, not your children?


I think those taking issue with the loan forgiveness are doing so because they and their children are not the ones who are broken, to use your terms.


----------



## festerw (Aug 30, 2022)

JerseyRobb said:


> Community colleges have been consolidating over the last 15 years since states reduced funding during the last recession. I am fortunate to live near several, but many across the nation are not so lucky. *Pennsylvania for example, previously had more scattered across the state, but they slowly became PSU satellite campuses and tuition quadrupled.*



This is one of those good and bad. As a community college they may have been just scraping by so a PSU name helps them and keeps the doors open. The bad is larger campuses lose funding to smaller ones to subsidize the infrastructure for 400 students, while UP holds the purse strings and decides who pays what while taking a cut off the top.

After being an employee for 15 years and watching all the nickel and dime crap to 'save' money and then seeing them throw away millions on deferring building maintenance is sickening.

There's a lot of blame to go around everywhere in whole student loan system.


----------



## JerseyRobb (Aug 30, 2022)

Ashful said:


> This is unfortunate.  I both hire and mentor occasional young engineers and engineering students, and I've been really impressed over the last ten years, how it has actually become more common for them to complete their first two years at a community college, before moving on to finish at a 4-year university, than it was when I was that age.  It's a really smart plan, for avoiding unnecessary debt, while completing obligatory math and literature credits.
> 
> I can tell you this was much less common among those I knew 30 years ago.  Back then, with a few notable exceptions, it seemed community college was mostly a road to nowhere, a holding pen for those who failed to make any other plans.  Only one or two of my two dozen classmates that went to the local community college ended up going on to finish the originally-planned 4-year degree.


Thank you for mentoring young engineers. I cannot express how much I applaud you for that. I spent a substantial amount of time meeting with accomplished PEs to convince them that their time is more valuable than their cash donations (although we obviously like those too, ha). And I will say that the older graduates from the institution do typically love interacting with the current students and recent graduates. One way universities are ranked is by calculating the percentage of alumni who annually donate either money or time. The typical public institution is typically 4-5%, we enjoy a rate exceeding 10%. 

The problem has been getting those presently 55-70 to volunteer their time.  It can be easier for me to find an 80yo who lives alone in a studio apartment (I find accomplished engineers are typically one end or the other of the frugality scale) who is excited to mentor someone. But this is often better to work as a pipeline to introduce them to active engineers. Again, thank you for what you do. It is vitally important.

And to be clear, I am in no-way an engineer.  My degrees are in economics, i/o psych and an mpa. Somehow I landed in foundation work at a stem university. It is the most rewarding work I have ever done.


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## SpaceBus (Aug 30, 2022)

Ashful said:


> A whole generation of children have not entered the workforce unready.  I have hired and worked with many young competent, and frankly brilliant, engineers.  Any fraction of those entering the workforce unready may not be much different today, than in the past.
> 
> 
> Not at all.  It is as much a fault of the parents.  But in the end, students signed loan agreements as adults, and are therefore obligated to repay them.
> ...


This thread has been entirely about bashing younger generations and their "choices" in education, then you go on to cherry pick a handful of individuals. Statistics is not your strong suit. 

So now we blame those being exploited, not the exploiters. How capitalist of you. 

I DO NOT think the offspring are the problem, I'm blaming the elder generations that lead an entire generation into having $40k on average in student loan debt. AKA the system is broken.

You act like children are just magically capable of making adult decisions just because they finished public school and are eighteen years old. The drinking age is specifically 21 because the majority of adults in this country do not find 18 year-olds to be very responsible. Young people are simultaneously expected to make bad choices, but also good choices that make them wealthy. We all know that young adults are not known for making the best choices, as a whole. So why do we expect to just throw them out of the house at 18 and they will just be able to make it in this cutthroat world we live in?

Ravens do a better job of preparing their youth for success than humans these days.


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## Ashful (Aug 30, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> You know where all of the engineers from your graduating class went and what they did? I know many undergrad engineering students who were thrilled for $50k/yr starting, which is a joke if you had to move to another state for that career path/education.


Things were horrendous in 2003/04, and again in 2008/09.  I saw this reflected in more students just NOT getting jobs in their major, than in the salaries offered to the few who did.

Also, do note there is a huge (by roughly 6:1 ratio in my own limited experience) range of starting salaries, for different engineering disciplines.  Those named here (architectural, then mechanical) are near the bottom of the heap on salary, nuclear and then RF/Microwave/photonics are toward the top.  I do know three engineering undergrads (all nuclear) from a family member's graduating class, who were all offered starting salaries over $300k ca. 2000.


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## SpaceBus (Aug 30, 2022)

Ashful said:


> Things were horrendous in 2003/04, and again in 2008/09.  I saw this reflected in more students just NOT getting jobs in their major, than in the salaries offered to the few who did.
> 
> Also, do note there is a huge (by roughly 6:1 ratio in my own limited experience) range of starting salaries, for different engineering disciplines.  Those named here (architectural, then mechanical) are near the bottom of the heap on salary, nuclear and then RF/Microwave/photonics are toward the top.  I do know three engineering undergrads (all nuclear) from a family member's graduating class, who were all offered starting salaries over $300k ca. 2000.


Wow, three nuclear engineers in a country with no new nuclear plants being built, who are also from a well off family. You couldn't be more statistically irrelevant.


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## JerseyRobb (Aug 30, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> This thread has been entirely about bashing younger generations and their "choices" in education, then you go on to cherry pick a handful of individuals. Statistics is not your strong suit.
> 
> So now we blame those being exploited, not the exploiters. How capitalist of you.
> 
> ...


I think his point is that the actions being taken do not fix the problem. Don't get lost in the weeds.


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## Ashful (Aug 30, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> Wow, three nuclear engineers in a country with no new nuclear plants being built, who are also from a well off family. You couldn't be more statistically irrelevant.


Not really.  It was just another example in making wise career choices, before complaining about your inability to pay back student debt.  Those three students were not from wealthy families, they all went thru the Navy, and were all smart kids.  I could guess they were brought up with a stronger sense of responsibility than many others, but that would be stereotyping.

But I said my piece, and you're getting too emotional on this, SpaceBus.  I don't see much point in arguing with you, anymore.


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## brenndatomu (Aug 30, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> Do you men really think that multiple generations really just love debt and want a lifetime of struggle? When will you come to terms with the system is broken, not your children?


Well, when people keep doing the same stupid stuff over and over again, (expecting different results?) it makes a person wonder.
I still say a vast majority of the (at least the US) population has not even basic finance skills...apparently nobody (other than a few good parents) is teaching the next generation how to run their basic household finances, delayed gratification (save up and pay cash if at all possible) how to live without borrowing unnecessarily, figure out what they want to do with their lives and then find the best way to get there...and if that involves taking on debt for a 2-4-6-8(+) year education, then how to do it the best way possible, other than just shrug, sign the loan docs, and then hope somebody else will pay it off for them. (and then also just hope that they will even work in the field that they were educated (and indebted) for. 
But you are correct, its not the kids fault, they are a product of their parents, and education system...plenty of issues to discuss with those 2 items!


----------



## SpaceBus (Aug 30, 2022)

I guess I need to clarify, I do not have, nor have I ever had, student loan debt. I am a medically retired veteran using my GI bill benefits to pay for school. I think all American citizens should be afforded the same opportunity I was without having to risk their life or health. Using the military as validation for "making good choices" is quite frankly the most absurd thing you could say. It's "saying the bad part out loud". 


What is actually being said here is that people with high student loan debt who are unable to pay it off in a reasonable amount of time are making bad choices. Then to validate this point, people are using anecdotal evidence, such as the engineering students who got lucky enough to find a job at a nuclear power plant. That is a sector that will never expand and is only shrinking. Anecdotal evidence does not support anything. If wages for all these degree programs were really so great, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. If only 10% of graduates had issues paying back loans, I could agree that the system is largely working as it should. However, this is not the case. 


This is basically a thread where a handful of entitled people are denying there's a problem while surrounded by a raging garbage fire. Where you are standing isn't on fire, so obviously there is no problem.


----------



## EbS-P (Aug 30, 2022)

Ashful said:


> Do note, I wasn't making nearly the number I listed, I scaled for inflation.
> 
> And that was my first year out of an MSEE program, in my mid-30's.  I worked thru my teens, twenties, and early thirties at anywhere from minimum wage to half that figure.  Hence, why I had made the decision to finally kick my own butt to finish school, a little bit later in life than most, to get out of that rut.
> 
> ...


Cost of higher Ed won’t correct it self_.  _after the 2008 crash per student spending had to drop.  But for many/ most states (and last time I checked NC too) the inflation adjusted per student state spending was well below 2008 levels.  I’m choosing to ignore recent inflation as I have not looked at data that recent. 

Costs are up, state funding is down no realistic barrowing   caps.   How is this self correcting?  Money is flowing in many parts of the economy.

  We all would like to climb that economic ladder.  Data proves a 4 year degree is the best bet to get as high as you can salary wise.   If we wanted to reduce debt we would more heavily subsidize public education.  It probably won’t reduce costs.  18-24 year olds down want nice accommodations, good professors (at least they complain a lot about the bad ones once they get somewhere), and really good food, and some  extra curricular entertainment. These things aren’t cheap.  If we promised them no out of pocket expenses maybe we could take the expectations down a notch or two but at this point I think that boat has sailed. 

I’m teaching an honors first year seminar now. These are the best of the best at a moderately selective mid tier state school on the beach.  They will do fine.  But we have lots of students pulled in many directions. Jobs to take care of them selves and their families.  One illness in their family and they can loose an entire semester.  Covid has amplified this.  If you asked me how do we improve graduation rates we need to cure mono and cancers.  

The gender gap In hire ED is growing. I think we are at 67% female with this years in coming class.  

All now students get finically counseling and exit.  They may ignore it or discount it but it’s their for them.  

Private institutions I believe are a huge driver in cost and therefore debt.  I want to see average state school debt vs private.


----------



## SpaceBus (Aug 30, 2022)

brenndatomu said:


> Well, when people keep doing the same stupid stuff over and over again, (expecting different results?) it makes a person wonder.
> I still say a vast majority of the (at least the US) population has not even basic finance skills...apparently nobody (other than a few good parents) is teaching the next generation how to run their basic household finances, delayed gratification (save up and pay cash if at all possible) how to live without borrowing unnecessarily, figure out what they want to do with their lives and then find the best way to get there...and if that involves taking on debt for a 2-4-6-8(+) year education, then how to do it the best way possible, other than just shrug, sign the loan docs, and then hope somebody else will pay it off for them. (and then also just hope that they will even work in the field that they were educated (and indebted) for.
> But you are correct, its not the kids fault, they are a product of their parents, and education system...plenty of issues to discuss with those 2 items!


Those children/graduates were told they could pay off the loans, only to find out they cannot. They want the loans forgiven because they were sold a lie. Just like people were mad when their Shelter/FireChief/turd furnace didn't work as advertised and wanted their money back. This is no different from any other industry lying to customers about a product and having to pay those customers back. You would be pretty mad if you were sold a bar of gold, only to get a bar of lead painted gold.


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## Shank (Aug 30, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> I guess I need to clarify, I do not have, nor have I ever had, student loan debt. I am a medically retired veteran using my GI bill benefits to pay for school. I think all American citizens should be afforded the same opportunity I was without having to risk their life or health. Using the military as validation for "making good choices" is quite frankly the most absurd thing you could say. It's "saying the bad part out loud".
> 
> 
> What is actually being said here is that people with high student loan debt who are unable to pay it off in a reasonable amount of time are making bad choices. Then to validate this point, people are using anecdotal evidence, such as the engineering students who got lucky enough to find a job at a nuclear power plant. That is a sector that will never expand and is only shrinking. Anecdotal evidence does not support anything. If wages for all these degree programs were really so great, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. If only 10% of graduates had issues paying back loans, I could agree that the system is largely working as it should. However, this is not the case.
> ...


While I do not disagree that wages are many times not great enough to support getting the degree, then why get the degree in the first place?  This is not solely an issue of an unfair system.  The people who are making the decision to go could very well research before they go.  Before I graduated high school, I looked for jobs in what I wanted to major in.  I looked at starting salary, available jobs, read job descriptions.  I graduated and got almost exactly what I expected and now make more than anticipated, granted the cost of living now is far higher than I anticipated.


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## Ashful (Aug 30, 2022)

Shank0668 said:


> While I do not disagree that wages are many times not great enough to support getting the degree, then why get the degree in the first place?


^ This.

,,, and SpaceBus, I wasn't citing the high pay of certain engineers as proof or validation that those unable to pay it off in a reasonable amount of time are making bad choices.  Only you made that leap, no one else.  I was simply responding to prior statements made in your debate with Shank, about the starting salaries of engineers, and both citing numbers in the $40k-$50k realm. 

If you want to be an engineer, and you're not already independently wealthy, then for the love of God, don't choose one of those engineering disciplines that will earn you only $40k-$50k per year when you join the workforce.  There are tens of millions of engineering jobs punching quite above that, without resorting to the rarified air of nuclear engineers with marine reactor experience.


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## PaulOinMA (Aug 30, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> Wow, three nuclear engineers in a country with no new nuclear plants being built, who are also from a well off family. You couldn't be more statistically irrelevant.



There was an excellent, multi-part show on PBS about Uranium a few years ago.

The show had a segment on R&D for the next generation of nuclear energy plants.  Development and design of the way to use what is now considered spent fuel to use the energy in what is now just thrown in deep mines.   Fascinating.  Left me with the impression that there's a lot going on with nuclear energy.









						Uranium Twisting the Dragons Tail | PBS
					

Explore one of the Earth's most controversial elements: uranium.




					www.pbs.org
				




Jeez, lots of words in here for this old guy.  Worth reading?


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## SpaceBus (Aug 30, 2022)

Shank0668 said:


> While I do not disagree that wages are many times not great enough to support getting the degree, then why get the degree in the first place?  This is not solely an issue of an unfair system.  The people who are making the decision to go could very well research before they go.  Before I graduated high school, I looked for jobs in what I wanted to major in.  I looked at starting salary, available jobs, read job descriptions.  I graduated and got almost exactly what I expected and now make more than anticipated, granted the cost of living now is far higher than I anticipated.


The research tells you to get the degree, which is my whole point. If you look at salaries for people with X degree, they are inflated. If all the statistics are inflated, then how do you make the "right" decision with flawed data? People are mad because we were told that we had to have a degree if we wanted to succeed, then that turned out to be false. Just like you would be mad if you were sold a product under false pretenses, millions of people are mad that their education turned out to be a grift. 



Ashful said:


> ^ This.
> 
> ,,, and SpaceBus, I wasn't citing the high pay of certain engineers as proof or validation that those unable to pay it off in a reasonable amount of time are making bad choices.  Only you made that leap, no one else.  I was simply responding to prior statements made in your debate with Shank, about the starting salaries of engineers, and both citing numbers in the $40k-$50k realm.
> 
> If you want to be an engineer, and you're not already independently wealthy, then for the love of God, don't choose one of those engineering disciplines that will earn you only $40k-$50k per year when you join the workforce.  There are tens of millions of engineering jobs punching quite above that, without resorting to the rarified air of nuclear engineers with marine reactor experience.


The engineering jobs paying those high wages are miniscule and statistically insignificant beyond pushing the average wages for all engineers higher than the median or majority of those employed in the field. You missed the point by cherry picking anecdotal evidence of high engineering wages. My generation, and those younger than mine, were sold a flawed product under the guise that it would guarantee our success in life. While I personally didn't get swindled, millions did, it could have easily happened to me.


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## Shank (Aug 30, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> The research tells you to get the degree, which is my whole point. If you look at salaries for people with X degree, they are inflated. If all the statistics are inflated, then how do you make the "right" decision with flawed data? People are mad because we were told that we had to have a degree if we wanted to succeed, then that turned out to be false. Just like you would be mad if you were sold a product under false pretenses, millions of people are mad that their education turned out to be a grift.
> 
> 
> The engineering jobs paying those high wages are miniscule and statistically insignificant beyond pushing the average wages for all engineers higher than the median or majority of those employed in the field. You missed the point by cherry picking anecdotal evidence of high engineering wages. My generation, and those younger than mine, were sold a flawed product under the guise that it would guarantee our success in life. While I personally didn't get swindled, millions did, it could have easily happened to me.


I understand your point, and even agree.  However, if you actually look for jobs, and not just "an average", you can actually get a realistic feel.  I saw this when I was looking.


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## brenndatomu (Aug 30, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> Those children/graduates were told they could pay off the loans, only to find out they cannot. They want the loans forgiven because they were sold a lie. Just like people were mad when their Shelter/FireChief/turd furnace didn't work as advertised and wanted their money back. This is no different from any other industry lying to customers about a product and having to pay those customers back. You would be pretty mad if you were sold a bar of gold, only to get a bar of lead painted gold.


Its no different than buying a car or a house that turned out to be a POS...everyone would want out of that too, but its not gonna happen, unless maybe it was realized within some sort of warranty period or something...maybe that's the answer, see if Gerber Baby will include "crushed hopes and dreams" insurance on their life insurance plan.
But then here we go again, people just don't want to take responsibility for their own decisions/consequences.
As far as the Shelter furnace thing, everyone except maybe the people that bought the first model year should have been able to do a little research and avoid that pitfall, as it was pretty well documented after that. 
But I would say most people just googled "wood furnace", picked the cheapest one, and their research consisted of the reviews on the HY-C website...not due diligence...and not my problem to pay off your credit card bill from a bad purchase decision.


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## ABMax24 (Aug 30, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> Do you really think that every unemployed college graduate has an art degree? Are you also implying that art degrees are worthless in an increasingly media controlled world? Artists make all of the media that we consume. College students were told for the last 20+ years that we would be nothing without a degree and you can't make it on working alone. Do you really think people just like spending tens of thousands of dollar and four or more years of their lives to make $15/hr? As if they did it for no reason.



I was using juxtaposition to compare the 2.

When I was in high school and went to college and later trade school it was well known that arts degrees were low paying and the chance of getting a job in that field was low. If that's what a person wants to do then great, but it's not societies fault if they are underpaid or unemployed.

Very few people get to follow their passion and make lots of money. It's usually a choice between the 2. I chose the latter, because hopes and dreams don't pay mortgages or grocery bills.


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## bholler (Aug 30, 2022)

ABMax24 said:


> I was using juxtaposition to compare the 2.
> 
> When I was in high school and went to college and later trade school it was well known that arts degrees were low paying and the chance of getting a job in that field was low. If that's what a person wants to do then great, but it's not societies fault if they are underpaid or unemployed.
> 
> Very few people get to follow their passion and make lots of money. It's usually a choice between the 2. I chose the latter, because hopes and dreams don't pay mortgages or grocery bills.


This is all absolutely true.  But I will say our world would be a very boring place without those people who choose hopes and dreams.


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## EbS-P (Aug 30, 2022)

brenndatomu said:


> Its no different than buying a car or a house that turned out to be a POS...everyone would want out of that too, but its not gonna happen, unless maybe it was realized within some sort of warranty period or something...maybe that's the answer, see if Gerber Baby will include "crushed hopes and dreams" insurance on their life insurance plan.
> But then here we go again, people just don't want to take responsibility for their own decisions/consequences.
> As far as the Shelter furnace thing, everyone except maybe the people that bought the first model year should have been able to do a little research and avoid that pitfall, as it was pretty well documented after that.
> But I would say most people just googled "wood furnace", picked the cheapest one, and their research consisted of the reviews on the HY-C website...not due diligence...and not my problem to pay off your credit card bill from a bad purchase decision.


I get your point but you are already subsidizing someone’s education.   Look at your state’s spending breakdown.  the biggest single chunk is education.   Being upset that the federal government said you didn’t pay enough on the front end we are going to make up for it now is essentially what happened.  I get there are a lot of private schools that get federal paid via federal loans.  And my argument starts to break down there but, I argue if states had done a better job funding state systems student debt would be lower and there is a point where this federal action would be unnecessary.  

And let’s not for get the origins of this debt forgiveness.  Winning an election enables certain actions.  (look at the Supreme Court).   


And to finish this post off. I do believe the sentiments of lazy partying college kids does not represent a majority of the students I interact with. ( Maybe 10%) Only two empty seats in my 8:00 am class today.  (Covid-19 is still doing it’s thing.  I’m thinking there should have been more staying home this morning).   Campus’s have changed a lot in 10-15 years.  Heck even in the last 6 I have seen large shifts in mentality of the students.  The mental health crisis is real.  And thank goodness students feel more comfortable disclosing what they are dealing with because we can help them.  If they just go dark and try again next semester or year they are likely to find themselves in a similar situation in the future, racking up more debt and small chances of completing their degree. I have had more than one student be granted a medical withdrawal with full tuition refund, take some time taking care of themselves and come back when they are ready willing and ABLE to be successful with the full support of all our resources.


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## begreen (Aug 30, 2022)

There are some things that simply should not be for profit. Healthcare, education, and prisons are amongst them. Most of the modern world has figured this out.  Instead, we discuss another form of Trollyman's dilemma.


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## Ashful (Aug 30, 2022)

bholler said:


> This is all absolutely true.  But I will say our world would be a very boring place without those people who choose hopes and dreams.


True.  See my earlier reference to the Medici and Michelangelo.



begreen said:


> There are some things that simply should not be for profit. Healthcare, education, and prisons are amongst them. Most of the modern world has figured this out.  Instead, we discuss another form of Trollyman's dilemma.


I'll agree on prisons, for-profit prisons are among the most deplorable issues of our time, but not healthcare or education.  The world would be in a much different place today, in terms of our history medical technology development, if it were not a profitable business.  Socialism is a wonderful idea, but capitalism gets the job done.


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## bholler (Aug 30, 2022)

Ashful said:


> True.  See my earlier reference to the Medici and Michelangelo.
> 
> 
> I'll agree on prisons, for-profit prisons are among the most deplorable issues of our time, but not healthcare or education.  The world would be in a much different place today, in terms of our history medical technology development, if it were not a profitable business.  Socialism is a wonderful idea, but capitalism gets the job done.


Capitalism only works with the help of social programs as well.    And yes without a doubt we need capitalism.   But seriously our medical system barely works at this point because the costs have gotten so out of hand.  Yes you can get great care but it might make you bankrupt.  Education isn't nearly as bad yet but it's getting there.


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## Ashful (Aug 30, 2022)

bholler said:


> Capitalism only works with the help of social programs as well.    And yes without a doubt we need capitalism.   But seriously our medical system barely works at this point because the costs have gotten so out of hand.  Yes you can get great care but it might make you bankrupt.  Education isn't nearly as bad yet but it's getting there.


The older I get, the more everything becomes shades of grey, and not so black and white.  It’s not just cataracts either…

So, I don’t disagree that capitalism sometimes benefits from social programs.  But where you and I draw the line will always be different places.  Fundamentally, I want to see anyone have the opportunity to better their place in life.  Anyone, as in those willing to put in the effort, and that’s not everyone. 

Anyone vs Everyone, it will always be the separation between right and left, I suppose.


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## bholler (Aug 30, 2022)

Ashful said:


> The older I get, the more everything becomes shades of grey, and not so black and white.  It’s not just cataracts either…
> 
> So, I don’t disagree that capitalism sometimes benefits from social programs.  But where you and I draw the line will always be different places.  Fundamentally, I want to see anyone have the opportunity to better their place in life.  Anyone, as in those willing to put in the effort, and that’s not everyone.
> 
> Anyone vs Everyone, it will always be the separation between right and left, I suppose.


When I say capitalism only works with social programs I am talking more about roads police fire etc etc.   

Then you need to look at all of the government funding given to private industry.  Is it really capitalism if it's propped up by taxpayer money.

Then all of the corporations and industries that pay their workers below the cutoff for welfare and expect the government to cover the rest.   

We are very very far from a pure capitalist society.


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## brenndatomu (Aug 30, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> This is basically a thread where a handful of entitled people are denying there's a problem while surrounded by a raging garbage fire. Where you are standing isn't on fire, so obviously there is no problem.


Hmm...calling people on a wood heat forum entitled seems misguided, at best.
I have personally met many people from this, and another wood heat forum, and not one entitled person in the bunch...self reliant and generous would be 2 of the words I would use to describe the vast majority of these people...which so far none of which have posted in this thread, but I'd venture a guess that most of those here would be well described by those words too.
There's lots of things going on in this country that I would describe as a "raging dumpster fire" right now, but student loan repayment isn't one of them (for the majority) this is plain and simple another political ploy being used to buy votes.
And if where you are standing today is "on fire", student loan debt could certainly be adding a lil fuel, but it is not the real problem for 99.9%...and for the .1% that it is the real problem, $10k (20) isn't gonna go very far to "fix" things anyway.


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## bholler (Aug 30, 2022)

brenndatomu said:


> Hmm...calling people on a wood heat forum entitled seems misguided, at best.
> I have personally met many people from this, and another wood heat forum, and not one entitled person in the bunch...self reliant and generous would be 2 of the words I would use to describe the vast majority of these people...which so far none of which have posted in this thread, but I'd venture a guess that most of those here would be well described by those words too.
> There's lots of things going on in this country that I would describe as a "raging dumpster fire" right now, but student loan repayment isn't one of them (for the majority) this is plain and simple another political ploy being used to buy votes.
> And if where you are standing today is "on fire", student loan debt could certainly be adding a lil fuel, but it is not the real problem for 99.9%...and for the .1% that it is the real problem, $10k (20) isn't gonna go very far to "fix" things anyway.


While I agree with some of what you said your assumption that it only effects. 1% is way off.


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## begreen (Aug 30, 2022)

Ashful said:


> True.  See my earlier reference to the Medici and Michelangelo.
> 
> 
> I'll agree on prisons, for-profit prisons are among the most deplorable issues of our time, but not healthcare or education.  The world would be in a much different place today, in terms of our history medical technology development, if it were not a profitable business.  Socialism is a wonderful idea, but capitalism gets the job done.


Right, the rest of the world is suffering terribly. Tell that to the Scandinavians, French, Germans, Italians, Japanese, and Australians.  FWIW, our healthcare system was not for profit up until the late 60s. And note that I said nothing about medical research.


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## bholler (Aug 30, 2022)

begreen said:


> Right, the rest of the world is suffering terribly. Tell that to the Scandinavians, French, Germans, Italians, Japanese, and Australians.  FWIW, our healthcare system was not for profit up until the late 60s. And note that I said nothing about medical research.


Don't forget that 22% of medical research funding comes from the federal govt.


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## begreen (Aug 30, 2022)

Education is key to a strong society. Calling non-profit healthcare and education socialism demonstrates a lack of understanding of the meaning of the word.


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## brenndatomu (Aug 30, 2022)

bholler said:


> While I agree with some of what you said your assumption that it only effects. 1% is way off.


What data makes you think that school loan debt is what is making more peoples lives "on fire"...and that $10k (20) will put it out?
Admittedly I did just pull a number out of the air...but I have never, not once, talked to someone who said their school loans were crushing them. And I have participated in some Dave Ramsey classes, so yeah, I have had some pretty in depth discussions with quite a few people about their exact types of debt.


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## Ashful (Aug 30, 2022)

I think this thread has drifted mighty far from student loan forgiveness, in the last two pages.  We're getting down to arguing philosophy, at this point.


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## bholler (Aug 30, 2022)

brenndatomu said:


> What data makes you think that school loan debt is what is making more peoples lives "on fire"...and that $10k (20) will put it out?
> Admittedly I did just pull a number out of the air...but I have never, not once, talked to someone who said their school loans were crushing them. And I have participated in some Dave Ramsey classes, so yeah, I have had some pretty in depth discussions with quite a few people about their exact types of debt.


I never said anything about "on fire" or anything about the $10000.   All I said was it effected more than .1%  I just know many many people who struggle to repay student loans.   And it effects more than just the loan holder it effects their spouse their kids etc.


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## brenndatomu (Aug 30, 2022)

bholler said:


> I never said anything about "on fire" or anything about the $10000.   All I said was it effected more than .1%  I just know many many people who struggle to repay student loans.   And it effects more than just the loan holder it effects their spouse their kids etc.


I did, I was addressing Spacebus' comment (which I quoted)
I know lots of people that struggle to pay their bills, schools loans are just part of it...and usually not one of the larger parts. But yeah, the overall debt load that many people carry is ridiculous, which goes back to the basic household finances and wise decision making (critical thinking) that I have been talking about...its just not taught nearly enough anymore. How many people that get $10k knocked off their bill will say "wow, that gives me the extra breathing room I needed to get the rest of this debt paid off and man did I ever learn my lesson here!" Nope, the vast majority will treat is as a windfall and just waste it somewhere else...and in the end we the people will be on the hook for over $2k, for every man women and child...ridiculous!  https://www.cbsnews.com/news/student-loan-forgiveness-10000-cost/


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## bholler (Aug 30, 2022)

brenndatomu said:


> I did, I was addressing Spacebus' comment (which I quoted)
> I know lots of people that struggle to pay their bills, schools loans are just part of it...and usually not one of the larger parts. But yeah, the overall debt load that many people carry is ridiculous, which goes back to the basic household finances and wise decision making (critical thinking) that I have been talking about...its just not taught nearly enough anymore. How many people that get $10k knocked off their bill will say "wow, that gives me the extra breathing room I needed to get the rest of this debt paid off and man did I ever learn my lesson here!" Nope, the vast majority will treat is as a windfall and just waste it somewhere else...and in the end we the people will be on the hook for over $2k, for every man women and child...ridiculous!  https://www.cbsnews.com/news/student-loan-forgiveness-10000-cost/


Again I don't support the idea of wiping out existing debts at all.  And actually it seems most commenting here dont.  But it is a real problem for plenty of people.   

Several of you are acting like anyone who ends up having a hard time paying their bill is an idiot or irresponsible.  This simply isn't true many people end up in hard time due to circumstances completely out of their control.  And for people in that situation reducing debt by $10000 could be a very big deal.


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## semipro (Aug 30, 2022)

Watching my sons try to navigate life and college I realize that they are working under a very different paradigm where real income is much less while educational costs are much higher.  
I was able to graduate college without student loans by working my way through but I can't imagine doing that nowadays. 
I did build up a substantial amount of student debt in grad school though and it took some hard work and time to clean that slate. I feel like I'm still paying for that.  
When I look at all the ways in which our public funds are used, some forgiveness on student loads seems like one of the better investments that can be made.


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## begreen (Aug 30, 2022)

Not sure what rents are in the folks' area, but in Seattle, it's about $2K for a decent one-bedroom or higher. I have met two young people in their late 20s in the past week that are paying off high student loans and car loans (not fancy or new), plus the costs of living. They are not able to save and just getting by in spite of having decent jobs. Their saving grace is that they don't have families. If they did you can raise those costs of living substantially. This is not the world we grew up in.
The average wage has been stagnant for a long time while living costs are escalating dramatically. So it doesn't bug me that those most needing it are getting a hand up and out of debt. I feel a lot better about this than some of the PPP grant monies that went to several congresspeople. And it's much better spent tax money than the massive, unfunded, tax break for the weathiest of a couple of years ago. That's another sort of forgiveness. Funny thing, there was barely a peep about that one here.


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## ABMax24 (Aug 30, 2022)

begreen said:


> Not sure what rents are in the folks' area, but in Seattle, it's about $2K for a decent one-bedroom or higher. I have met two young people in their late 20s in the past week that are paying off high student loans and car loans (not fancy or new), plus the costs of living.



That's high, and a reason my area is seeing young couples arrive from the cities. We have a 1400sqft home, just over 5 years old, 2 car attached garage. I'm just a hair over $2k/month, that's mortgage, property tax, water, garbage collection, power and gas. Best part is in 20 more years this place is mine.

I turn 30 in December. But I walked away from 1st year Engineering, partly out of lack of interest in Linear Algebra and Calculus, and because there was no financial gain to stay. I started a trade and worked my bag off in the oil patch, I made far more money than any 20 year old should ever be allowed to have, travelled some, bought toys, and blew most of the rest, saving just enough for the down payment on our house.

My brother finished his Engineering degree, and started in the work force four years after I did. Effectively he's 4 years behind where I was at the same age. Today we both have similar jobs, I'm a Junior Project Manager, he's an Engineering Sales Manager. We both work similar hours, but having a trade actually gives me the advantage in wages. Different paths to the same place.

Honestly if I was walking out of high school today, I'd go to college and take some BS program for a year, spend the year partying, then walk out of school and head toward an electrical apprenticeship. Not to say post-secondary education isn't good, but in my area and from my experience it doesn't pay. Avoids the whole issue of student loans.


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## semipro (Aug 30, 2022)

Ashful said:


> The older I get, the more everything becomes shades of grey, and not so black and white. It’s not just cataracts either…


I increasingly see the world the same way...even after cataract surgery.


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## brenndatomu (Aug 30, 2022)

bholler said:


> Several of you are acting like anyone who ends up having a hard time paying their bill is an idiot or irresponsible


Not everyone, no way, unforeseen circumstances can wipe out the best nest egg, even sometimes with insurance in place...but I think anyone with even vague familiarity would have to admit bad financial decisions are on an epidemic level these days.
Over 20 years ago I spent a few years in auto sales (mostly trucks) and it didn't take me too long to figure out that was not my calling...I couldn't stand watching these people buying stuff they had no business buying (couldn't afford it...even though the bank approved it)


bholler said:


> for people in that situation reducing debt by $10000 could be a very big deal.


Well, for those that get it, I hope it is...and I hope they use it as a big step to a better future...but if you are being honest with yourself, you gotta know many/most won't.
Just like a guy I work with, we all say he'd make an excellent financial advisor...just do the opposite of him, you'll be fine! Poor guy is less than a year from retiring, for a second time, and doesn't have a pot to pizz in...owes big money on everything he has....and has always had a pretty darn good job, its just a lifetime of day to day bad financial decisions. And stories like his are all too common...just catch Dave Ramsey on the radio someday, like him or not, its a real eye opener to what's "normal" in todays society, as far as people's spending habits.

And just to be clear, I'm not picking on people having a hard time the last year or two...these are not normal times...but all the more reason to try to get out of debt, then stay out...makes times like this, at the very least, a bit more bearable.


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## FramerJ (Aug 30, 2022)

This has been an interesting thread with many facets and hundreds of rabbit holes to go down.

I’m not too wild with this idea. However, my stance has softened a bit and my eyes opened after reading some posts on here. I really want to have an open mind about this. That being said I kind of take issue with being told I have an “entitled” point of view because I think people should suffer because I suffered, or be held accountable for their actions or choices, good or bad. In my opinion, I can turn that sentiment around and say there are a lot of people who feel entitled to not have to suffer or live with the consequences of their choices. They should get what they want, get it now and not make any sacrifice for it.

I was led to believe that tech stocks would only go up in 1999. I was led to believe that home values could not go down in 2007. I was led to believe that my first wife was “the one”. I suffered greatly because of all those “lies.”   But in reality, I just made poor decisions. My net worth would be north of 7 figures if those unfortunate things didn’t happen. Instead, I lost my framing business in 2009 and went from an income of 90K to asking a friend if I could come learn to weld at a mill he worked at- for $10/hr. I didn’t get one penny from the government and believe me, I was struggling. 

I truly feel for people who are burdened by debt. I really do. But no one forced them to take out those loans. If you are fortunate enough to go to college, you should be able to comprehend getting a loan requires having to pay it back.  Thats why its called a loan.  I’m not saying we always make the best decisions in life, especially at 18 years of age, but you have to learn to live with those decisions. I also understand circumstances happen beyond one’s control —this is extremely unfortunate. But that is life. I need a truck for my job-- If I go out and buy a $100k top of the line truck with all the bells and whistles with no money down on an 84 month note (because I listened to the dealer) and the housing market tumbles and I’m out of work, am I entitled to truck loan relief? It wasn’t my fault the housing market crashed and now Im expected to pay this loan back along with my other bills?   Should I really expect/demand the Federal Government and its tax paying citizens to help me?  (I realize this isnt exactly an apples to apples comparison, just using it for effect.  Plus, I would never buy a $100k truck). I’m all for helping people but who makes the decision of who gets what and how much?  And where do we draw the line?

If I am honest with myself, I cant be too upset for people with student loan debt wanting help. Why can banks, car makers, farmers, oil companies, etc. get bailed out or subsidized but not people trying to make themselves better?

There is obviously a problem. The cost of higher education is part of it. The fact that some jobs require a college education or an advanced degree, but have a low salary is another. There are more. I’m not smart enough to fix it, but in my opinion, this (debt relief) won’t fix the problem either.


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## EbS-P (Aug 30, 2022)

Is anyone posting paying for childcare now?   We have a nice daycare and preschool (to think for a bit we are starting our 11th year there).  My *2 day a week* 4 year old now costs $500 per month.   It’s not a ritzy place (buts it 5 star rated and apparently that not always easy to achieve) but the do require 4 year degrees and masters if you want to keep working there longer than 2 years.  That’s right to wipe noses and bums you need a post secondary education.  Pay wasn’t and probably isn’t great(I think it’s gotten better as the turnover rate has plummeted the last 2 years)  and most probably took out loans for the masters.  Every tuition (yeah they call it that) increase I gladly paid knowing that their staff was was getting most of that increase.  Saying 4 year degrees aren’t necessary is ignoring the reality that to change my child’s soiled diaper you need a master’s degree.   

Saying  10k forgiveness isn’t meaningful for someone else is the same as telling someone how they like their coffee.  You don’t, you ask.


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## bholler (Aug 30, 2022)

brenndatomu said:


> Not everyone, no way, unforeseen circumstances can wipe out the best nest egg, even sometimes with insurance in place...


Really?   What type of nest egg do you think people a few years out of college have?  You don't think a serious illness or injury could burn through savings really quickly even if you have a substantial nest egg?  The simple fact is pay has not kept up to cost of living increases for a long time.  Not even close.  And the job market has been changing so fast that no one knows what salary to expect coming out of school


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## ABMax24 (Aug 30, 2022)

Can we add a poll to this thread?

I'm curious to know how many members have how much (if any) post secondary education. Seems from reading this thread that many members have a degree of some kind.


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## brenndatomu (Aug 30, 2022)

bholler said:


> Really?   What type of nest egg do you think people a few years out of college have?  You don't think a serious illness or injury could burn through savings really quickly even if you have a substantial nest egg?  The simple fact is pay has not kept up to cost of living increases for a long time.  Not even close.  And the job market has been changing so fast that no one knows what salary to expect coming out of school


I give up, you must have reading comprehension issues.


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## bholler (Aug 31, 2022)

brenndatomu said:


> I give up, you must have reading comprehension issues.


Apparently I do.  I completely misread your post somehow I aplogize


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## brenndatomu (Aug 31, 2022)

bholler said:


> Apparently I do.  I completely misread your post somehow I aplogize


Meh, no worries here, it was getting late, I'm sure you were getting blurry eyed, and I was getting crabby, it happens.
We'll do better today...have a good one.


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## PaulOinMA (Aug 31, 2022)

I'm getting better at not posting on the internet late at night when I am on the porch for a cigar after a few beers.


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## Ashful (Aug 31, 2022)

ABMax24 said:


> Can we add a poll to this thread?
> 
> I'm curious to know how many members have how much (if any) post secondary education. Seems from reading this thread that many members have a degree of some kind.


I'm the OP, but in a quick scroll of my screen, I'm not seeing an option to add a poll at this point.  Might be interesting to start a new thread, with the poll, and post a link to it here.


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## PaulOinMA (Aug 31, 2022)

I'm also on a car web site.  29 pages of the same discussion.   



			https://www.vwvortex.com/threads/student-loan-debt-getting-lighter.9513262/


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## Ashful (Aug 31, 2022)

It's amusing, but really a poor analogy, as this has nothing to do with being fair to those who already repaid their loans.  It is about asking me, you, and every taxpayer to pay FUTURE taxes to cover the expense of these loans.

Again, go to school for any useless degree you choose.  I don't really care if you chose a career that can't support the cost of your education.  Just don't ask me to pay for your poor choices.


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## bholler (Aug 31, 2022)

Ashful said:


> It's amusing, but really a poor analogy, as this has nothing to do with being fair to those who already repaid their loans.  It is about asking me, you, and every taxpayer to pay FUTURE taxes to cover the expense of these loans.
> 
> Again, go to school for any useless degree you choose.  I don't really care if you chose a career that can't support the cost of your education.  Just don't ask me to pay for your poor choices.


But who will do all the jobs that require degrees but don't pay enough?   We still need teachers nurses etc etc.


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## Ashful (Aug 31, 2022)

bholler said:


> But who will do all the jobs that require degrees but don't pay enough?   We still need teachers nurses etc etc.


Economics tells us that, after some short-term pain, the situation will self-correct.  With fewer people entering the field, employers must pay more to attract the available workers.  Problem solved... eventually.

And don't accuse me of over-simplifying the problem, I've been through the same in my field, both benefitting from and suffering from changes in supply and demand of engineers in my specialty. 

Of course there are short-term problems with this, when applied to teachers and nurses.  No one wants to deal with even a temporary shortage of 3rd grade teachers, when their Timmy is in 3rd grade.  So, despite capitalism being the ultimate long-term wage optimizer, there always must be some degree of intervention in critical areas.

That said, history already tells us there will be no wage-based shortage of teachers.  When wages were at their lowest, we had less of a teacher labor shortage than we do today.  Working conditions, and not wages, appear to be the biggest national issue for this field.


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## bholler (Aug 31, 2022)

Ashful said:


> Economics tells us that, after some short-term pain, the situation will self-correct.  With fewer people entering the field, employers must pay more to attract the available workers.  Problem solved... eventually.
> 
> And don't accuse me of over-simplifying the problem, I've been through the same in my field, both benefitting from and suffering from changes in supply and demand of engineers in my specialty.
> 
> ...


The problem with your reasoning is wages in general are to low compared to cost of education and cost of living.   Leaving one job because it doesn't pay enough doest help unless there are higher paying options.   In many areas there simply are not.


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## Ashful (Aug 31, 2022)

All true, but a different issue.  You're looking at today's individual employee, I'm looking at the long-term problem, in aggregate.  Both are valid issues.

The good news, to use your two examples of teachers and nurses, is that this is already happening.  At least locally, starting salaries have really gone up substantially, in the last 1-2 years.  Some local hospitals are offering signing bonuses commensurate with a full-year salary, cash on signing.  Our local schools have gone thru massive staffing changes, so many older teachers taking early retirement and others just moving onto other careers, due to frustration with COVID responses and related issues.  This has given more new graduates opportunities to get jobs in some of our better schools, where they would usually never have a chance, as recent graduates.  Although more tightly controlled (unions / school boards) than other fields, I have also been told by some that the starting salaries of local teachers have been going up, in light of the labor shortages.


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## bholler (Aug 31, 2022)

Ashful said:


> All true, but a different issue.  You're looking at today's individual employee, I'm looking at the long-term problem, in aggregate.  Both are valid issues.
> 
> The good news, to use your two examples of teachers and nurses, is that this is already happening.  At least locally, starting salaries have really gone up substantially, in the last 1-2 years.  Some local hospitals are offering signing bonuses commensurate with a full-year salary, cash on signing.  Our local schools have gone thru massive staffing changes, so many older teachers taking early retirement and others just moving onto other careers, due to frustration with COVID responses and related issues.  This has given more new graduates opportunities to get jobs in some of our better schools, where they would usually never have a chance, as recent graduates.  Although more tightly controlled (unions / school boards) than other fields, I have also been told by some that the starting salaries of local teachers have been going up, in light of the labor shortages.


2022 average starting salary for teachers in pa was still only $29171.  Nurses have gone up dramatically in the last couple years


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## ABMax24 (Aug 31, 2022)

bholler said:


> 2022 average starting salary for teachers in pa was still only $29171.  Nurses have gone up dramatically in the last couple years



Gross, starting salary for a teacher in Alberta is $59k to $66k per year depending on school division.

Nurses here average $45/hr, for about $70k per year.

Our dollar is worth about 75% of yours, but you get the point.

FYI Alberta is hiring. We have some of the highest wages in Canada, and near the lowest cost of living. Just sayin'...


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## Poindexter (Aug 31, 2022)

FWIW, and we are way off topic, about half the RNs in the USA are looking for jobs outside the field in 2022.  And 2021.  I was one of them, though I am sticking for now.

As a fairly senior individual with about 10 years to go to retirement, when Arby's is paying $30/ hour for me to make sandwiches I will be gone.  I am going to carry on for now while WalMart is paying $18/hr for greeters, but when I can drop the RN burden to say 'hello' to folks at $30/hr there is no incentive for me to risk fatal diseases every time I do a needle stick or deal proactively with all the malpractice lawyers out there waiting for me to make a simple human mistake so they can close in for the kill that would cost my job and my house and my truck and my boat and probably my marriage.  Those bastards would probably get my BK stove too.


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## Ashful (Sep 1, 2022)

bholler said:


> 2022 average starting salary for teachers in pa was still only $29171.  Nurses have gone up dramatically in the last couple years


That is low, but you know what they say about PA, "Philadelphia and Pittsburg, with Alabama in-between".  Maybe consider moving an hour east?  Our local public Pennyslvania school district has published their median teacher salary at over $97k, and average over $89k.  The private school where my kids attend has even higher teacher salaries, so I am told by the teachers, but stat's on those aren't made public.


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## bholler (Sep 1, 2022)

Ashful said:


> That is low, but you know what they say about PA, "Philadelphia and Pittsburg, with Alabama in-between".  Maybe consider moving an hour east?  Our local public Pennyslvania school district has published their median teacher salary at over $97k, and average over $89k.  The private school where my kids attend has even higher teacher salaries, so I am told by the teachers, but stat's on those aren't made public.


Median salary is not at all starting salary though.   Starting salary in the city of Philadelphia is roughly $44000 but that's only part of the story.  Starting wages there vary from low 20s to 60s.  Clearly low income areas of the city are not going to be able to attract the best teachers because they can't afford to.  So even before college a parents income is a pretty big determining factor in the quality of education kids get.


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## Ashful (Sep 1, 2022)

bholler said:


> So even before college a parents income is a pretty big determining factor in the quality of education kids get.


I guess we're getting pretty far from the point of repaying the money you agreed to borrow, but you bring up a complex issue that can't be simplified so easily.  Studies in NJ have actually shown an inverse relationship between school budget per capita and student performance, exactly the opposite of what most would expect.

It is likely true to state that there is a correlation between parent income and student performance, but remember that correlation is not causation, there are many community and personal factors outside of the school contributing to those numbers.  For example, correlation between income and single-parent families, in which the single parent is just not able to be as involved in their child's education.


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## begreen (Sep 1, 2022)

For a comparison of how other first-world nations view this issue:

In Germany, college is free, even if you are an American visiting.
In Finland, anyone is welcome to get an education for free.
In Denmark, college is free of course, but the student also gets $900/mo. for expenses for up to 6 yrs.
In France, it's 170 Euros a year for bachelor's programs.
The point is, that education is important for the well-being of the nation and the world. They make it easy for those that seek higher education.

Meanwhile, back home you've got to pull yourself up by the bootstraps. We charge an arm and a leg for education and it keeps on getting worse. It's $35.5K a year is average for college these days. However, we'll provide you with a loan at 10x the rate that the bank pays. If you don't pay we'll garnish your paycheck. If you declare bankruptcy (quite expensive), you still owe the man.

So while I agree, that the student loan payoff is not the best solution because it's temporary. It's a bandaid covering a festering wound. Education should not be a high-profit institution and that needs to be addressed. Add the fact that wages have been relatively stagnant for a long time. 
This is the problem:









						The Price of College in America Is Increasing 8x faster Than Wages – The Finance Twins
					

The cost of college is increasing approx. 8x faster than wages. This begs the question: is college even worth it anymore?




					thefinancetwins.com
				



(And yes, I put myself through college with the help of a BEOG and a part-time job. However, my tuition was something like $650/semester.)


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## stoveliker (Sep 1, 2022)

^^That.


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## PaulOinMA (Sep 1, 2022)

What is the average tax burden as percentage of income in those countries?  Would that fly here?


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## PaulOinMA (Sep 1, 2022)

The first thing I saw is Finland's tax rate of 56.95%.  Good luck with that.

Denmark 55.90%.


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## stoveliker (Sep 1, 2022)

No it would not fly.


			https://files.taxfoundation.org/20210517153859/A-Comparision-of-the-Tax-Burden-on-Labor-in-the-OECD-2021.pdf?
		


But the point is that a country values its people educated, or prefers their poorer people to remain uneducated. Which is the larger waste?

Moreover, the tax burden in these countries is governed not by education cost, but by social security (equivalent) costs.


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## PaulOinMA (Sep 1, 2022)

I had a full tuition scholarship to Fairfield University.   1976 - 1980.  All four years' tuition totaled $12,300.

$2,700, $2,900 ...

It actually was a pretty large percentage increase every year.


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## festerw (Sep 1, 2022)

PaulOinMA said:


> The first thing I saw is Finland's tax rate of 56.95%.  Good luck with that.
> 
> Denmark 55.90%.





stoveliker said:


> No it would not fly.
> 
> 
> https://files.taxfoundation.org/20210517153859/A-Comparision-of-the-Tax-Burden-on-Labor-in-the-OECD-2021.pdf?
> ...



Now add in medical and education costs and I'm guessing your pretty close to that figure already without the benefit for everyone in the US.


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## stoveliker (Sep 1, 2022)

Not to mention property taxes, which are counted in the tax burden (at least for my old country, as it was added to your IRS tax bill).


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## begreen (Sep 1, 2022)

PaulOinMA said:


> The first thing I saw is Finland's tax rate of 56.95%.  Good luck with that.
> 
> Denmark 55.90%.


Actually, they get a lot for the high taxes. By not spending the majority of these funds on the military they get some excellent benefits. There's a reason why Denmark is always among the top spots of the world’s happiest places. In addition to great education benefits, they also get at least 5 weeks paid leave a year, they have universal health care, a generous retirement pension, elderly home care, and 52 weeks paid leave for a new child split between both parents.









						Why Danes Appreciate the High Danish Income Tax Rate | IRIS FMP
					

Denmark has one of the highest income tax rates in the world, and yet is home to some of the happiest people. Find out why it’s the tax that they appreciate.




					fmpglobal.com
				




When compared to the combined state, FICA, and federal income tax of say MA being about 20%, then add at least 15% more for retirement planning,  they get more for their money for life.


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## stoveliker (Sep 1, 2022)

I can confirm that.
It was easy to make the budget work there. I have it good here, but if I'd make the same here as there,. it'd be hard.


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## PaulOinMA (Sep 1, 2022)

I agree.  On porch having cigar after a few beers.  Shouldn't post. 

Skunk in yard somewhere.   Skunk probably thinking stinky person in yard somewhere.


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## Ashful (Sep 2, 2022)

Analysis | The most-regretted (and lowest-paying) college majors — The Washington Post
					

Humanities disciplines are among the most regretted majors and are declining in popularity. Meanwhile, STEM fields have doubled enrollment in the last decade.




					apple.news


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## tlc1976 (Sep 2, 2022)

begreen said:


> Actually, they get a lot for the high taxes. By not spending the majority of these funds on the military they get some excellent benefits. There's a reason why Denmark is always among the top spots of the world’s happiest places. In addition to great education benefits, they also get at least 5 weeks paid leave a year, they have universal health care, a generous retirement pension, elderly home care, and 52 weeks paid leave for a new child split between both parents.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Then the sales tax when you use whatever money you have left.


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## stoveliker (Sep 2, 2022)

And yet, folks there live better with a lower spendable budget that that same budget here allows. I did.


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## Ashful (Sep 2, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> And yet, folks there live better with a lower spendable budget that that same budget here allows. I did.


I've lived and worked in several countries in Europe, most notably Germany, Italy, Ireland, England, in addition to visiting Belgium, France, Czech Republic.

While what you say is (mostly) true, I would not trade what I'm able to achieve here, for any one of them.  Yes, those at the bottom may have it better in Germany, than here.  But everyone not at the bottom of the socioeconomic pile have it considerably worse.  I have no interest in finding my way to the bottom of the pile.


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## stoveliker (Sep 2, 2022)

I'd say anybody below at least the middle of the economic pile has it better there. That's more than half the population (because wealth is also not equally distributed there).

I live here now, and I have it better too - but I'm well above that middle of the scale, consistent with your observations.


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## EbS-P (Sep 2, 2022)

PaulOinMA said:


> The first thing I saw is Finland's tax rate of 56.95%.  Good luck with that.
> 
> Denmark 55.90%.


Would gladly pay it for the quality of life improvements.  We have decent health insurance.  One child with manageable epilepsy and has a baby this year.  We are up to 8k in medical out of pocket expenses.  (And I even delivered the baby my self on the bedroom floor!  By  by choice!)   

No Americans will never go for it but I argue it’s not the citizens preventing it but the corporate greed that has a constitutional right to spend what ever they want to help candidates who will do their bidding.   I know nothing of the campaign finance rules in those countries but I’m guess they are different than ours. 

Look more than half of Americans don’t go to college.  This was never fair.   Biden got lucky on this one.  There is a legitimate argument against it.  But other things have happened since it was announced and now it’s old news.  

On different but related note I want to thank everyone who has participated in this discussion. I wa sure it was going to get shut down before it got to end of the second page.  We don’t have to always agree but it’s nice to see everyone following the rules.


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## EbS-P (Sep 2, 2022)

Ashful said:


> I've lived and worked in several countries in Europe, most notably Germany, Italy, Ireland, England, in addition to visiting Belgium, France, Czech Republic.
> 
> While what you say is (mostly) true, I would not trade what I'm able to achieve here, for any one of them.  Yes, those at the bottom may have it better in Germany, than here.  But everyone not at the bottom of the socioeconomic pile have it considerably worse.  I have no interest in finding my way to the bottom of the pile.


My interpretation is the progressive tax system makes the pile much shorter.  Making relative movement with said pile easier/more attainable.  

I think that directly relates to the need to borrow money to get an education to climb the ladder. But the pile is just too deep (read that as generalized limited upward financial mobility) 

I do think rural areas have certain cost of living advantages but and it’s a big one.  The upward mobility is more limited and couple that with shrinking population the economy will shrink too this making any positive movements even more difficult.  

Those with means are geographically mobile.  So I think you will see rural areas increasingly reliant on programs like, or similar to, debt forgiveness for their success in the future.   They need teachers.  They need health care.  And if they can’t pay a wage that allows a person to live and pay off student debt, those communities can and and probably will find themselves in a downward spiral.


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## begreen (Sep 2, 2022)

Seen on Twitter:
If you have a problem with the student loan cancellation because you already paid off your loans, just pretend it's a tax cut for the rich that you also never got, but mysteriously never complained about.


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## ABMax24 (Sep 4, 2022)

begreen said:


> For a comparison of how other first-world nations view this issue:
> 
> In Germany, college is free, even if you are an American visiting.
> In Finland, anyone is welcome to get an education for free.
> ...




US tuition is out of hand. Out of curiosity I checked what University costs are here, an engineering degree is 4 years at about $11k/year (that's all university costs combined), which is a lot higher than the $7,500/year I was paying 10 years ago.

I don't agree with free education though, even with our tuition rates I knew a lot of students attending post-secondary education for lack of any better plan for their lives, but with no real intended direction. Many of which dropped out within 2 years without earning any credentials because the costs grew too large. These students occupied seats that could have been filled by other students with a plan to a degree.

Having a fee to the student helps keep "career students" out of the classroom and frees up spots for students with a plan to a degree and the intent to later join the workforce with that degree.


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## Ashful (Sep 5, 2022)

ABMax24 said:


> Out of curiosity I checked what University costs are here, an engineering degree is 4 years at about $11k/year (that's all university costs combined), which is a lot higher than the $7,500/year I was paying 10 years ago.


Great post, I agree with everything you said.

This graph has been floating around Forbes, seemingly originally posted on WealthTrace, but without any citation or qualification (eg., I don't know if it's national average, if it's only private schools, etc.), but seems to reflect what everyone here has been feeling:


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## EbS-P (Sep 5, 2022)

Ashful said:


> Great post, I agree with everything you said.
> 
> This graph has been floating around Forbes, seemingly originally posted on WealthTrace, but without any citation or qualification (eg., I don't know if it's national average, if it's only private schools, etc.), but seems to reflect what everyone here has been feeling:
> 
> View attachment 298676


Comparing what ever “college education inflation” is to consumer prices I don’t see as a valid comparison.  As we have found out consumer price index is weighted heavily to the price of oil.   Food is next.  And this graph stops in 2010.  

A more meaningful comparison might be the msrp of a vehicle say the the F-150.  My googling says a 1985 f150 listed for $7800.    For 2010 it was $22000.  A 280% increase. 

Dot com bubble burst and wee see the two lines diverge. I’m guessing we would see the same thing happen if it graph kept going and probably even steeper increases in college cost due the Great Recession. 

I’m not agreeing that costs have not increased the absolutely have, but for a real meaningful discussion we need to understand why that graph turned.


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