# UPS back-up for Pellet Stove



## BillX (Dec 8, 2016)

This topic came up as an aside on another recent post.

Although not specifically about a pellet stove, many of these stoves have a computer board (mother board) that needs protection. In Northern Ontario, Hydro One's incoming current has significant fluctuations and are hard on sensitive electronic equipment.

One way to solve this problem is to buy a UPS, but there are a lot of different options. I only looked at OnLine UPS systems because they have the added advantage of allowing the stove to safely run off a generator.

An OnLine Double-Conversion pure sine wave UPS performs a number of tasks. But mostly it's in the design that the benefits are seen. The OnLine UPS takes the incoming AC current and converts it to DC, and then back again to AC, so the electronics in the pellet stove are never exposed to either the raw feed from the grid, nor the dirty current from the generator.

The raw current feeds the battery, keeps it charged, allowing the battery to feed the outgoing current to the stove. It is important the UPS has enough wattage for the stove.

I am buying a 650W OnLine UPS and the Piazzetta Stove has a start-up wattage of 330W with running watts of 102W. That allows enough room to charge up some cell phones and laptops. Input current is 5.8A to supply the stove with start-up amps of 3A.

The one downside of the OnLine versions is their cost, the cheapest good one being almost C$800.

If there are any errors here, feel free to let me know.


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## MButkus (Dec 9, 2016)

What ? ? 
Staples or any computer store will sell a UPS (Uninterrupted Power Supply) with some 1500 AH with a LCD display showing power drain and possible run time for some $100 - $200.  It's just a box with a battery.   Real powerful ones with two big lead acid batteries will go for $250+ (U.S)
Those units are all sine wave and will protect against almost anything.

What they are selling are high end (computer servers for companies or radio stations) very expensive units way over the needs of a homeowner.  I have had a UPS for 23 years (plus the ones at my college/work) with power zaps, street transformer problems and the like.  Never had a problem with my stove, TV or 3 computers in the home, neither at work.  I have had my UPS run off a gas generator, the UPS will smooth out the generator power.  As long as the generator has a built in 3 prong plug, the UPS will see a ground.

I would believe others on the forum would concur, the are selling some dooms day device for C$800.
MA900II High frequency UPS usually used for Centralized server rooms and blade server centers, mainframe, network control center, cable structure racks.  I'll assume you don't have any of those in your house ?


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## BillX (Dec 9, 2016)

So are you talking about a Standby UPS or a Line-interactive UPS? In any case if it's just a battery and a box you are not getting a pure sine wave to your electronics under normal operation, unless you have an pure sine wave inverter generator.

Standby and Line-Interactive UPS's are not designed to alter the sine pattern of incoming current. It's only when there is a power failure do they send a pure sine wave to your electronics.

When companies say their UPS supplies a pure sine wave, that occurs ONLY when activated during a power failure.

An OnLine system sends a pure sine wave to your electronics all the time. That is not needed in my opinion when you have consistent incoming electricity from the grid which will always be a pure sine wave (although there could be large fluctuations esp in rural areas), but if you are running off a generator (unless that generator supplies a pure sine wave), you are running your electronics off of dirty energy. All the companies I have researched that discuss generator use recommend an OnLine system, because the incoming current never goes directly to your electronics, but passes through 2 conversions, from AC to DC and back to AC and then the pure sine wave is sent on to your equipment.

I agree the cost is a lot, but so is replacing the board in a pellet stove. Mine costs C$485 + tax + shipping/handling + labor to install, plus the wait time to get the stove up and running. And where I live there would be no one that would know how to do it.

Line-Interactive UPS's are interesting, as they have better voltage regulation than standby, an AVR reducing wear and tear on the battery.  BUT these still only provide a pure sine wave when battery is activated, and that's only during an outage, because they send the incoming current, regulated for voltage drops and surges, directly to your equipment.

I would be interested if someone has set up a good quality surge bar along with a pure sine wave inverter and had good results running off a generator. 




MButkus said:


> What ? ?
> Staples or any computer store will sell a UPS (Uninterrupted Power Supply) with some 1500 AH with a LCD display showing power drain and possible run time for some $100 - $200.  It's just a box with a battery.   Real powerful ones with two big lead acid batteries will go for $250+ (U.S)
> Those units are all sine wave and will protect against almost anything.
> 
> ...


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## MButkus (Dec 9, 2016)

Just checked on Northern Ontario, Hydro One's... And people wanted to move to Canada after the elections ? ?
I pay about $100 a month for power (electric stove and oven too), some months it goes up - goes down.  You "did have" dirt power according to the newspapers, the new power company is much cleaner and doesn't go out or brownout.
You guy pay .09 a KwH to $.18 a KwH depending on the time of day.
In Jersey it's $.09  KwH steady, then $.03 to deliver it.
Yikes.. so I see why you used to need a power cleaner.  
But according to the papers, that is fixed.. you're just paying for it in very high electrical bills during the daytime.
But if you had such bad power, wouldn't TVs and computers be frying all over the place ?
Very rarely do we get a voltage drop, during very hot weather we did and it drove the UPS crazy.
I replaced it with a AVR model, no problems since.


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## BillX (Dec 10, 2016)

Well our usage isn't bad where we are (10.3/KwH steady only because Hydro's wifi won't reach our meter), but the crime is in the delivery charge, rates rise with more usage, and when only a few are on a line. I'm in the highest delivery rate and so our delivery charge is twice the amount of usage. No question a new gov't coming to Ontario next election.

Good point about power to TV's and computers, but I was only really talking about generator usage during a power outage. My backup is mostly electric (includes pellet stove) and with a power failure I would only have the fireplace, a good one, but it couldn't handle the whole house. So a generator that can safely power the electronics of a pellet stove is key to that. If I fry the board I'm toast.

In our rural areas, there is more voltage fluctuation with Hydro One that with Toronto Hydro, which is considerably more consistent. If I was only concerned about normal operation from a functioning grid, I would have exactly what you have, a Line-Interactive UPS with AVR, which is very good at dealing with most fluctuations and not working the battery (prolonging its life).

I'm not convinced that the companies are trying to snow the public by recommending an OnLine UPS system when using a generator. Of course, the new inverter generators change everything.




MButkus said:


> Just checked on Northern Ontario, Hydro One's... And people wanted to move to Canada after the elections ? ?
> I pay about $100 a month for power (electric stove and oven too), some months it goes up - goes down.  You "did have" dirt power according to the newspapers, the new power company is much cleaner and doesn't go out or brownout.
> You guy pay .09 a KwH to $.18 a KwH depending on the time of day.
> In Jersey it's $.09  KwH steady, then $.03 to deliver it.
> ...


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## CleanFire (Dec 10, 2016)

BillX said:


> I am buying a 650W OnLine UPS and the Piazzetta Stove has a start-up wattage of 330W with running watts of 102W. That allows enough room to charge up some cell phones and laptops. Input current is 5.8A to supply the stove with start-up amps of 3A.
> 
> The one downside of the OnLine versions is their cost, the cheapest good one being almost C$800.



You would be better served investing the $$$ into a good quality inverter Generator, and using a higher wattage backup UPS, like the Cyberpower 1,500 watt PFC model - 650W is barely enough for motor startup voltage, and you don't want to under-volt the stove: that will stress / burn out the stove's electronics..

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00429N19W/?tag=hearthamazon-20


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## MButkus (Dec 10, 2016)

Yikes... staying in Jersey for now.  $.10 for the power.  $.03 for delivery all mutliplied by KwH.  So my 990KwH came to $140.  Last month it was $85.
We live in a semi rural area, almost never get power outages.  Some blinks off (30 sec) with bad lighting storms or out for 2-4 min.  Maybe once every five years a power outage from a pole going down (wind) for 1 - 4 hours.  I bought a LP gas generator after the Sandy super storm (8 days out).  It's still in the box !  During Sandy storm I borrowed my son's 3K generator, it ran for two days and I plugged in my UPS to it.  But everything was down so no internet or TV.   At least it charged the battery.


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## BillX (Dec 11, 2016)

@CleanFire:

Thanks for your reply.

The stove is rated as follows;

Rated current during ignition A3.0 (Start up Amps)
Maximum power input during ignition W330 (Start up Watts)
Maximum power input at work W102 (running Watts)

It looks like a 650W (5.8A) UPS system is about double what is needed to run the pellet stove. Is that not enough?

I agree an inverter generator would be the best idea, but cost is a factor.


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## Deromax (Dec 11, 2016)

I would guess that trying to start a stove on an UPS will deplete the battery before the pellets are on fire.  The UPS is to keep the stove going once it's running, as the fans and auger are relatively easy loads to the UPS.  The ignitor is a more demanding resistive load.


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## BillX (Dec 11, 2016)

Yes, that's true. Starting up the stove just with a UPS is a bad idea.

Sorry to confuse you. Without grid power, I would start up stove with generator for power supply, and the OnLine UPS would be supplying the power to the stove through its battery, which would be constantly recharged by the generator. 

As you say the igniter is the biggest draw: total start up wattage for stove is 330W (3A) and running wattage is 102W. The igniter is using 2/3 of the start-up draw. The UPS 630W is almost twice the capacity needed for start up. 

Cheers



Deromax said:


> I would guess that trying to start a stove on an UPS will deplete the battery before the pellets are on fire.  The UPS is to keep the stove going once it's running, as the fans and auger are relatively easy loads to the UPS.  The ignitor is a more demanding resistive load.


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## chken (Dec 14, 2016)

Looks like you're going for the holy grail. Like you, I run a Piazzetta with the same demands, 300w on startup, and 100w on my normal settings. I have a CyberPower PFC1500 UPS, that is just like the one linked by CleanFire for about $150, when it's on sale at NewEgg. It's a pure sine wave UPS, line interactive, avr. All the good stuff that you mention, EXCEPT, it's not double-converting like you want. Double converting is great, essentially the line power is always being conditioned for whatever it's running. The downside is I suspect the battery will need to be replaced far more often.

The only thing my CyberPower UPS doesn't do that I would like it to do is run off my whole house 12k LP generator. It doesn't. The Piazzetta runs off my generator power just fine, but the UPS doesn't. However, I shut off my whole house generator at night since it's basically generating a half load when I'm barely using it, and I can run a small 2k inverter generator, WEN brand I got for $350. That runs overnight just to power the Cyberpower UPS which the Piazzetta plugs into. 1 gallon overnight to power the WEN inverter generator, which charges the Cyberpower UPS which powers the Piazzetta. I guess, I could just plug the Piazzetta into the WEN inverter generator, but I have the UPS, why not use it.


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## Deromax (Dec 14, 2016)

I bought and just received a CyberPower PFC1500, which was for sale at half the regular price on cyber monday.  I have set it up and connected the stove to it.  I will do a test on battery over the week-end and will report back!


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## Deromax (Dec 15, 2016)

Well, I tested the thing tonight.  With the stove at power 1/5 (my stove stay there most of the time) I got 97 minutes before it got to below 5% battery remaining.  I then plugged it back before the shutdown.  I'm fairly happy, as I was hoping for an hour!


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## BillX (Dec 18, 2016)

Sorry for the slow reply. 

It's true the battery is under load all  the time with an OnLine UPS, and it will wear out sooner. Nice to see people using a Line InterActive UPS off a generator with good results. 

Don't know why the 12K can't run the UPS. That's weird. My understanding is the AVR handles minor fluctuations without the battery, but the battery engages when the fluctuations are too great for the AVR to handle. Sounds to me that the UPS is not accepting the raw current (modified sine wave) from the large generator, and needs the pure sine from the small unit. 

Anyway you set-up sounds perfect. 

Thanks for the reply. 





chken said:


> Looks like you're going for the holy grail. Like you, I run a Piazzetta with the same demands, 300w on startup, and 100w on my normal settings. I have a CyberPower PFC1500 UPS, that is just like the one linked by CleanFire for about $150, when it's on sale at NewEgg. It's a pure sine wave UPS, line interactive, avr. All the good stuff that you mention, EXCEPT, it's not double-converting like you want. Double converting is great, essentially the line power is always being conditioned for whatever it's running. The downside is I suspect the battery will need to be replaced far more often.
> 
> The only thing my CyberPower UPS doesn't do that I would like it to do is run off my whole house 12k LP generator. It doesn't. The Piazzetta runs off my generator power just fine, but the UPS doesn't. However, I shut off my whole house generator at night since it's basically generating a half load when I'm barely using it, and I can run a small 2k inverter generator, WEN brand I got for $350. That runs overnight just to power the Cyberpower UPS which the Piazzetta plugs into. 1 gallon overnight to power the WEN inverter generator, which charges the Cyberpower UPS which powers the Piazzetta. I guess, I could just plug the Piazzetta into the WEN inverter generator, but I have the UPS, why not use it.


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## BillX (Dec 18, 2016)

97 minutes is impressive. Stove must be set up for optimum efficiency. 



Deromax said:


> Well, I tested the thing tonight.  With the stove at power 1/5 (my stove stay there most of the time) I got 97 minutes before it got to below 5% battery remaining.  I then plugged it back before the shutdown.  I'm fairly happy, as I was hoping for an hour!


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## Deromax (Dec 18, 2016)

Of course, power 1 out of 5 is just idling, around 8000 btu output.  It will suffice for outside temps above 15F but below that will need a higher setting.  Moreso in a power outage since the baseboard electric in the bathroom won't contribute any heat!

We rarely get power outage lasting more than 15 minutes.  The idea is to merily avoid the stove shutting down and staying off for the whole day while I'm at work or all night while sleeping.

I live about 5 miles from a hydro powerplant, utility is really stable around here!


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## Vand M (Dec 23, 2017)

I have an apc bn900m 480w system. Trying to figure out how long it will run my pelpro pp130 or my castle stove?? Confusing lol just need to know if I will have enough time to shut it down.


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## Vand M (Dec 23, 2017)

Vand M said:


> I have an apc bn900m 480w system. Trying to figure out how long it will run my pelpro pp130 or my castle stove?? Confusing lol just need to know if I will have enough time to shut it down.


Wondering if I should just shut it off if a storm comes

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## Ssyko (Dec 24, 2017)

Try it. Plug stove into upc start it. Then unplug upc from the wall. Turn off stove


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## Vand M (Dec 24, 2017)

Ssyko said:


> Try it. Plug stove into upc start it. Then unplug upc from the wall. Turn off stove


Sounds like a plan. Thanks! I'll let you know what happens lol

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## 2011 GT/CS (Dec 24, 2017)

I have a Cyberpower 1500PFCLCD. Pure sine wave on a Hartman P43 and I can get 60 to 90 minuets of run time. It also soothes out any power fluctuations. Have had it for just over a year and seems fine. It I unplug the backup from the wall it gives you a live reading of estimated run time.


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## dotman17 (Dec 25, 2017)

Harman wanted $500 for a backup battery for my pellet stove. Screw that.  Then my friend suggested a generator.  Screw that.  So I bucked up and spent another $2500 and bought a wood stove for upstairs.  It's off the grid and works all the time.


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## Vand M (Dec 26, 2017)

dotman17 said:


> Harman wanted $500 for a backup battery for my pellet stove. Screw that.  Then my friend suggested a generator.  Screw that.  So I bucked up and spent another $2500 and bought a wood stove for upstairs.  It's off the grid and works all the time.


Just bought a generator and a battery backup and only spent 350.00 total. Backup battery gives me about 90 min. That's long enough to start the generator.

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## Hiskid (Dec 26, 2017)

What ups did you get ?


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## Vand M (Dec 26, 2017)

Hiskid said:


> What ups did you get ?


Got the cyberpower1500lcd. Just a step up from the gentleman who told me what he had. Cost 164.00 and got a 4 year extended warranty for 11.00 more.

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## dotman17 (Dec 27, 2017)

Gas and that constant, horrible engine rumbling.


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## Vand M (Dec 27, 2017)

dotman17 said:


> Gas and that constant, horrible engine rumbling.


3.7 gallon tank. 9 hours run time per tank. db is low On the generator I ordered. The reviews said you don't have to talk loud to hear over the motor. Got high ratings!!

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## dotman17 (Dec 27, 2017)

Vand M said:


> 3.7 gallon tank. 9 hours run time per tank. db is low On the generator I ordered. The reviews said you don't have to talk loud to hear over the motor. Got high ratings!!
> 
> Sent from my LGL164VL using Tapatalk



Nice.  There are a few solutions out there and none of them are perfect.  We needed to fix our chimney flue and cap so I had 'em put in a wood stove flue.  That fixed both those issues.  Sure it set me back some put I love having both types of stoves in my house.


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## Vand M (Dec 27, 2017)

dotman17 said:


> Nice.  There are a few solutions out there and none of them are perfect.  We needed to fix our chimney flue and cap so I had 'em put in a wood stove flue.  That fixed both those issues.  Sure it set me back some put I love having both types of stoves in my house.


We would love to do the same in our 200 year old home but. Both chimneys need completely rebuilt. 3 story house. I don't want that bill lol!!

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## dotman17 (Dec 27, 2017)

Deromax said:


> I would guess that trying to start a stove on an UPS will deplete the battery before the pellets are on fire.  The UPS is to keep the stove going once it's running, as the fans and auger are relatively easy loads to the UPS.  The ignitor is a more demanding resistive load.



Yep.  UPS essentially buys you enough time to shut off your pellet stove before the gases start filling your room.


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## zrock (Dec 27, 2017)

Or u could just get a auto start for your gen  so it will kick in on power failure. 

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## Ssyko (Dec 27, 2017)

Auto switching is great but they are expensive. It starts generator when detect grid power is out shuts of grid power and turns on generator. Then when grid power comes back on it reverses the swith back to grid and shuts down generator. generac makes a nice system prices start at 5k


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## zrock (Dec 27, 2017)

I did a quick eBay search and the pricing seemed pretty reasonable. About the same price as a battery unit. 

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## Vand M (Jan 1, 2018)

zrock said:


> I did a quick eBay search and the pricing seemed pretty reasonable. About the same price as a battery unit.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G903W using Tapatalk


Does it matter if it is simulated sine wave or pure sine wave backup??

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## chken (Jan 4, 2018)

Vand M said:


> Does it matter if it is simulated sine wave or pure sine wave backup??
> 
> Sent from my LGL164VL using Tapatalk


Assuming I'm understanding the question. I don't know of any pure sine standby generators. All the major ones by Generac, B&S, Kohler, etc. are simulated, ie square waves.

You could get a large inverter generator, which most likely has a pure sine output, but they tend to be expensive, and not all that powerful, 3000watts. Also, typically 120volt, so they can't run anything requiring 240volts.


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## Vand M (Jan 4, 2018)

chken said:


> Assuming I'm understanding the question. I don't know of any pure sine standby generators. All the major ones by Generac, B&S, Kohler, etc. are simulated, ie square waves.
> 
> You could get a large inverter generator, which most likely has a pure sine output, but they tend to be expensive, and not all that powerful, 3000watts. Also, typically 120volt, so they can't run anything requiring 240volts.


The pellet stove I have is 120V. 350 starting watts at 2.6 amps. Then drops to 2.3. So a 2000 watt inverter gen should be able to run it with no probs. Its leas then half load.

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## Pelleting In NJ (Jan 5, 2018)

All mechanical generators (an engine spinning an alternator) put out low distortion (<5%) sinewaves.....pretty much a pure sinewave. You can buy a 9KW Generac fully automatic back-up generator, with automatic transfer switch, for about $2500...plus installation.


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## Tonyray (Jan 5, 2018)

Pelleting In NJ said:


> All mechanical generators (an engine spinning an alternator) put out low distortion (<5%) sinewaves.....pretty much a pure sinewave. You can buy a 9KW Generac fully automatic back-up generator, with automatic transfer switch, for about $2500...plus installation.



we have a 7500 Generac and a transfer box with 10 circuits so that we can run any hardwired rooms, appliances or whatever..
900.00 for the electric start genny and 250.00 for the transfer box..
when power goes out, i don't worry about dirty power or messing up my pellet stove circuit board.
i just run the oil furnace off of the genny.. problem solved..


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## chken (Jan 6, 2018)

If you're only planning on running the stove and a few other things, then a pure sine inverter generator, 2000w, would work. That's the type that is commonly used for RVing and tailgating. Quiet, uses little gas, clean power.


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## Frodo001 (Feb 1, 2021)

The computer on our pellet stove says "no pellets" which is not true.  There are pellets in it and it works for a short while then we get that message, "no pellets".   This is a brand new pellet stove installed on January 28, 2021.  Called the company that we bought it from, and you guessed it, person is out sick,


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## Ssyko (Feb 1, 2021)

Welcome to the forums Frodo001 If you created a new thread with the make and model of stove you would get more replies.


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## Frodo001 (Feb 1, 2021)

Ssyko said:


> Welcome to the forums Frodo001 If you created a new thread with the make and model of stove you would get more replies.


Yes, I wasn't thinking straight.  Husband has been trying to figure out this Ravelli for a couple of days.  I'll let him come on and talk with you guys.  Thank you for your response, Bj


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## gfreek (Feb 1, 2021)

My generator and UPS is in my signature.  They work great even together. I can run at least an hour on UPS only.. Just replaced batteries in it. LCD screen was unreadable..


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