# Schools taxes, property taxes, income tax



## Swedishchef (Feb 24, 2015)

Hey guys

After seeing/hearing what people pay in taxes while in another thread, I nearly fell off my feet. It seems that NJ pays a heap.

SO what do you guys pay as property tax and school tax? My marginal income tax rate is about 33%. I pay $500 a year in school tax and $2300 a year in property tax.

Andrew


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## drz1050 (Feb 24, 2015)

Income tax I don't know offhand, and I'm hourly so it's always changing.. if I work a lot of OT, I get taxed at a higher bracket. Fun.

School taxes for me were $1842, city taxes were $528.


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## ChipTam (Feb 24, 2015)

Swedishchef said:


> Hey guys
> 
> After seeing/hearing what people pay in taxes while in another thread, I nearly fell off my feet. It seems that NJ pays a heap.
> 
> ...



My sister in New Jersey pays around $6,000 in property taxes.  Here in Michigan, we pay around $3,500.  School taxes are usually included in the property taxes and are the largest share of those taxes.  In Newfoundland, we started off paying only a $125 yearly poll tax.  A few years ago, we got municipal water and got property taxes as a result.  We pay about $1,000 now.  That's still a bargain. 

ChipTam


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## Z33 (Feb 24, 2015)

My property tax runs me $2,700 a year on a $260,000 Valuation. Sounds cheap to many of you I am sure, but this same house outside the metro area would probably be $900- $1000 a year.

As for income tax.... Dont get me started. The wife and I were at $26,518.32 This year I really feel like I should get a Christmas card every year from Uncle Obama and a few of the welfare queens I support.


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## mass_burner (Feb 24, 2015)

We're at, 6,300/yr on a 610k valuation. School spending is 62% of town budget. I'm an LLC, so about 18% tax rate.


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## DAKSY (Feb 24, 2015)

$5310 a year for school tax. $3500 a year for property tax with a 15% Veteran Reduction. IIRC, I paid about $13K in income tax.
New York - The Vampire State


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## Doug MacIVER (Feb 24, 2015)

8K+ for a 450K house. vineyard cottage on the other hand 2100 for350+K. thanks to all the other part time residents.


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## GENECOP (Feb 24, 2015)

Don't feel comfortable getting into specifics but the North Shore of Long Island is no joke, I WISH my taxes where like any of the amounts previously posted........The taxes will force us out of the area sooner or later.......Our taxes alone represent a large majority of people's yearly income.....


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## Bioburner (Feb 24, 2015)

Local property tax is about 1% of valuation here. County figured it needed more $$$$ so hired a full time property valuation expert and got taxes increased because they said properties were under valued. Of course, that's because no one working in the  county but the government workers are making what they call a living wage. Living wage was seen to be 11.15 and the average county wage is under 10 I have had a 400% increase in ten years. Moved back here as was decent community with lower taxes, that was stupid move.


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## Grisu (Feb 24, 2015)

$3800 in property taxes (=school tax) after slight income adjustment and on an assessment of 270K. Total annual tax burden including social security, fed, state, property, gasoline, generous estimates for sales taxes etc., excluding one-time taxes (e. g. real estate transfer tax) is 20% to 25% of our combined income; marginal tax rate of 30% notwithstanding.


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## jharkin (Feb 24, 2015)

I wont give you absolute numbers as folks can use that to back calculate how much I make and how much my house is worth... I dont want this to be a contest of who has more.


Income tax:

Our federal scale is progressive... I'm in the 25% marginal bracket  (highest is 39.6%) but most of my income gets taxed at lower rates due to lots of deductions (retirement funds, medical premiums, kids, house, nonworking spouse, local taxes).... I effectively pay around 11% net federal.   Short term capital gain (< 1 year) are taxed at income rate, long term gains  at 0,10,15 or 20% depending on income bracket.  Gain on the sale of a primary home is partially exempt form tax.

State tax is a flat rate of 5.15%  after a few deductions.   Short term capital gains taxed at 12%, long term at 5.15% (the state income tax has been going down steadily from the old rate of 5.3 or 5.5 10 years ago)

Massachusetts has no local town/city income tax
Property tax:

The house is taxed at $19 per thousand of value - 1.9% -  annually by my town. This varies from town to town in Mass from as low at $4 per thousand to as high as $25.  This pays for most  town services - police, fire, schools, roads. ( This rate came down over the last few years but my value is increasing so the average annual bill is slightly up)

The vehicles are assessed an annual excise tax of 2.5% of value on an accelerated depreciation schedule (something like 90%, 60%, 40%, 10% of value over the first 4 years)  This is also paid to the town.
Sales tax:

6.25% state sales tax. food, clothing up to $150, fuels are all exempt.  (this went up form 5.0 a few years ago)

meals tax - same as sales tax, 6.25% at restaurants

Massachusetts has no local town/city sales tax
Fuel taxes:

Gasoline has 24 cents of state excise tax and 18 cents of federal excise tax per gallon included in the price. deisel similar or a bit higher. Home heating fuels are exempt.


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## Grisu (Feb 24, 2015)

Z33 said:


> As for income tax.... Dont get me started. The wife and I were at $26,518.32



That's really the number from your form 1040, line 63?


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## jharkin (Feb 24, 2015)

Grisu said:


> That's really the number from your form 1040, line 63?



That number is not hard to hit for a multi-income middle class family in a high cost of living state.  When my wife goes back to work we will be well over that.

You really want to faint, look at the number Joful posted in the 203k thread


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## Babaganoosh (Feb 24, 2015)

I'm in NJ.

I pay 5400 which includes school taxes.

I have a 1300 foot ranch on .6 acres. I bought the house in July for 207k. It was a great deal and it's valued a bit higher.

I actually live in a town with a decent tax rate (not compared to most states though). If I plopped my house into the next town over my taxes would be 6800 to 7000 and I would have to pay a private company to pick up my garbage.


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## jharkin (Feb 24, 2015)

Z33 said:


> a few of the welfare queens I support.



You mean all those retirees on Social Security?


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## Jags (Feb 24, 2015)

My Spidey senses are tingling....


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## Grisu (Feb 24, 2015)

jharkin said:


> That number is not hard to hit for a multi-income middle class family in a high cost of living state.  When my wife goes back to work we will be well over that.



Even with the kids, mortgage deduction etc. and for federal income tax (as the OP stated) only? Hmm, I must fill out my tax return wrong or completely underestimate where the middle class starts; I have never been even close to that number. VT is not MA but not that cheap either. (And I always thought GA was not that expensive but I could be off.)

FWIW, our tax rates look pretty similar. Property is somewhat lower (~1.6% total but to figure out the actual amount you need an advanced math degree) but state is higher, I think.


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## webfish (Feb 24, 2015)

http://money.cnn.com/interactive/real-estate/property-tax/


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 24, 2015)

Id be out of Business if i paid anywhere near what you guys pay.
The Sewer bills around here are more then the RE taxes.    RE taxes  $400 on 3000 SF     Annual Sewer fee $600 .
Still somehow they manage to pay police $100000 a year and Teachers $60000


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## philupthegastank (Feb 24, 2015)

Im at $1,100 property tax for a $70k assessed property, but will probably be going up after im done remodeling.


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## Bobbin (Feb 24, 2015)

Everyone grouses about taxes (include me in the club).  But the older I get (and remember that means the more I have to "protect") the more I understand that taxes are the very things that better our country and our society.  I believe that paying taxes is my responsibility as a citizen of the United States of America!  I (and the Good Man) have been the beneficiaries of a wonderful publically funded education and continuing to fund schools only makes good sense.  We drive on roads that were publically funded and are maintained by public funds.  We have not directly benefitted from public water and sewer projects, but funding clean water and air is OK with us!

NOW, do I think there is inequity in the present system of taxation? you bet your boots I do!  In  light of the fact that we have no children have we been required to pay "more" into the system than our household has immediately derived than those with kids have likely had to pay, is it "unfair"? probably!  Are we OK with that? YUP!  Why? because it's "for the greater good".  Doing so will benefit our society and it will allow the younger members of our society to enjoy the benefit so many of us have already enjoyed!  Consider the motto of our country,  you guys... E pluribus Unum.  It's not about "me" it's about "US"!


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 24, 2015)

philupthegastank said:


> Im at $1,100 property tax for a $70k assessed property, but will probably be going up after im done remodeling.


My property is assessed about the same ,around $70k so my area taxes roughly a third the rate of yours.


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## jharkin (Feb 24, 2015)

Grisu said:


> Even with the kids, mortgage deduction etc. and for federal income tax (as the OP stated) only? Hmm, I must fill out my tax return wrong or completely underestimate where the middle class starts; I have never been even close to that number. VT is not MA but not that cheap either. (And I always thought GA was not that expensive but I could be off.)
> 
> FWIW, our tax rates look pretty similar. Property is somewhat lower (~1.6% total but to figure out the actual amount you need an advanced math degree) but state is higher, I think.




I dont know state by state, but at least around here, anyone with a 4 year degree in a STEM field is starting out no lower than 60-70k..  People with advanced degrees start higher.  Easy to get into the 6 figures as an engineer with a few years of job experience. Guys who own skilled building trade businesses can probably rack up incomes like that or higher putting in a lot of hours. My wife when she was working as an RN was in the 70 to 80 range.  I think public school teachers are at least in the 60 range as well...  Maybe I am off base but I would consider all those occupations middle class - we are not talking doctors, lawyers or stockbrokers here.


So figure you have a 2 income family like that and its easy to be in the 150k+ gross income range putting you into the 28% bracket and have decent sized household tax bills.


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## johneh (Feb 24, 2015)

Well people I could not afford most of your taxes
We pay 1200 year property and school tax with about 60 %
school as for income tax my WSIB pension is not taxable
The wife pays about 27%  (WSIB Workplace Safety and Insurance Board  )


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## jharkin (Feb 24, 2015)

Grisu said:


> Even with the kids, mortgage deduction etc. and for federal income tax (as the OP stated) only? Hmm, I must fill out my tax return wrong or completely underestimate where the middle class starts; I have never been even close to that number. VT is not MA but not that cheap either. (And I always thought GA was not that expensive but I could be off.)



Hmm... maybe the definition I posted abouve you could call upper middle class if you want..  When you said you where in the 30% marginal bracket did you mean federal or federal+state?  If you are at that level federal alone for taxable income I think you would be at the level of paying on the order of $$ quoted above unless im really screwing up my math...


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## Z33 (Feb 24, 2015)

Grisu said:


> That's really the number from your form 1040, line 63?




Yes, I went to the effort of posting the line but it had a little too much info and it was 2013 which was even worse...

This year between the wife and:  $18,940 paid in federal Via with holding. $5,682 Paid in state via with holding

Plus an additional 1,896 between federal and state that I was short.

All in I paid $26,518


Edit to add: We have no kids, mortgage deduction on a 130K a couple rentals I "break even on" and thats about it.


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## jharkin (Feb 24, 2015)

That doesn't sound so bad now, i thought you menat federal alone... I pay that much right now on one income..  when my wife goes back to work the hit will get a lot worse.


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## Adios Pantalones (Feb 24, 2015)

NH has a high property tax rate, but relatively low assessed values. We pay like $5700 on a $220K assessed property (2 acres, 1600 sq ft house).

Our income taxes are pretty high. We pay over $4k quarterly on top of the no deduction withholding rate. Being honest is not great for the wallet, but excellent for peace of mind.

I am skillfully dodging a political discussion right now


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## Ashful (Feb 24, 2015)

One thing worth noting is that living in an old house is a great way to keep your property taxes down, at least in our locale.  I'm paying about about 30% less than my neighbors for my beautiful old stone farm house, normalizing for square footage and acreage, versus their cardboard and stucco McMansions.  According to one of our local assessors, that's standard practice, to devalue old homes in assessed value.

I'd best avoid the income tax discussion.


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## Swedishchef (Feb 24, 2015)

Wow. Lots of people pay lots of taxes around here.. A few things:

1- WTF is this "mortgage deduction" crap?! Insane.
2- In Canada we have MUCH higher income tax rates...In Quebec (the province with by FAR the best social programs out there..if you take advantage of them) I pay roughly 38% in taxes. BUT our taxes pay for medicare, roads, schools, etc. Property tax is simply taxes for services from the town: garbage removal, recycle pickup, outdoor rinks, etc etc.
3- We all earn different amounts of money, are somewhat content and we all love burning wood 

Andrew


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## Swedishchef (Feb 24, 2015)

ChipTam said:


> We pay about $1,000 now


God Bless Newfoundland!


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## joes169 (Feb 24, 2015)

WI isn't too bad, especially from what I've seen of the Northeast here.  For property taxes, we have a mill rate of 0.0139.  About 60% of that goes to schools, 17% to the County, 16% to the Township, and a little percentage to the State.  We've actually seen a slight decrese in taxes over the last few years.

As for income taxes, with a few businesses and investments on our return, it's too complicated to even understand.......


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## Swedishchef (Feb 24, 2015)

Bobbin said:


> I understand that taxes are the very things that better our country and our society


+10000.
My FIL used to complain about taxes alll the time. Then 3 years ago he went for heart surgery at a renown cardiac institute. Triple bypass. They flew him there from here on a medical jet, he was 2 weeks in the hospital, they flew him back and it cost $0 on site. Now his wife has chronic leukaemia and is taking all kinds of treatments. She takes a pill form of chemotherapy every 2 weeks and does an IV chemotherapy treatment once a month...the other day was her first IV treatment: a pharmacist, 2 doctors and 3 nurses were there for the first 30 minutes to make sure all was OK. EVen 90% o f her medication is paid by the province.

My FIL just got back all the income tax he paid over 45 years.

Andrew


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## woodgeek (Feb 24, 2015)

I pay about $6500 school tax and $700 to my town, both are my 'property tax' on a 2300 sq ft falling apart house.  I also pay 'city tax' to Philadelphia, about 3.7% of my income, just for the privilege of working there, not that I live there or use the schools.

When I moved here my buddy starting razzing me about my high taxes, which were double his.  Then he moved and his are nearly double mine on a smaller house.


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## ironpony (Feb 24, 2015)

4000 in ohio on 490,000 assessed, 800 in st Croix on 600,000 assessed, income taxes x00,000


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## drz1050 (Feb 24, 2015)

Canada may have a slightly higher tax rate, but if you look at what you get for it, you have FAR greater value. 
Income tax doesn't tell the whole story here either, not even close.. 
I wish I had free trash pickup.


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## Grisu (Feb 24, 2015)

jharkin said:


> Hmm... maybe the definition I posted abouve you could call upper middle class if you want..  When you said you where in the 30% marginal bracket did you mean federal or federal+state?  If you are at that level federal alone for taxable income I think you would be at the level of paying on the order of $$ quoted above unless im really screwing up my math...



Now you got me curious. I really don’t know why our taxes seem to be so different. First, I was wrong about the tax bracket. Looked it up and it is 25%. Nevertheless, my actual fed income taxes are a far cry from that. Here are my calculations based on the return for 2013:

Total income: 100% (W-2 plus capital income, interest etc. 1040, line 22)

Taxes as % of total income:

Fed income tax: ________5.6% (1040, line 61; after claiming 2 kids, mortgage and state tax deductions)
Social Security: ________6.5%
Medicare: _____________1.5%
State income (VT): ______2.2%
Property: ______________4.1%
Local sales tax: _________2.5% (estimated on 40% of income spent on taxable goods which is probably overstating it)
Gasoline tax (fed+state): _0.2%
Total: ________________18.5% of income.

Not sure if I forgot something but can’t think of anything else that would make a substantial difference. Maybe I am doing something wrong but my taxes have been that way for several years and so far the IRS has not complained.


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## Grisu (Feb 24, 2015)

Joful said:


> One thing worth noting is that living in an old house is a great way to keep your property taxes down, at least in our locale.  I'm paying about about 30% less than my neighbors for my beautiful old stone farm house, normalizing for square footage and acreage, versus their cardboard and stucco McMansions.  According to one of our local assessors, that's standard practice, to devalue old homes in assessed value.



I guess that is considered a heating bill subsidy. 



Z33 said:


> mortgage deduction on a 130K



Would the standard deduction not work better for you then? We are not too far off when mortgage interest is so low that we can just use the standard deduction.


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## Grisu (Feb 24, 2015)

Bobbin said:


> Everyone grouses about taxes (include me in the club).  But the older I get (and remember that means the more I have to "protect") the more I understand that taxes are the very things that better our country and our society.  I believe that paying taxes is my responsibility as a citizen of the United States of America!  I (and the Good Man) have been the beneficiaries of a wonderful publically funded education and continuing to fund schools only makes good sense.  We drive on roads that were publically funded and are maintained by public funds.  We have not directly benefitted from public water and sewer projects, but funding clean water and air is OK with us!



I am glad you see it that way. What determines our higher living standard compared with previous centuries is the human capital (accumulated knowledge through education and research) and real capital (infrastructure, housing, factories etc.) passed on from previous generations. Especially on the human capital side, the state plays an important role in maintaining and adding to that wealth. 


> NOW, do I think there is inequity in the present system of taxation? you bet your boots I do!  In  light of the fact that we have no children have we been required to pay "more" into the system than our household has immediately derived than those with kids have likely had to pay, is it "unfair"? probably!  Are we OK with that? YUP!  Why? because it's "for the greater good".  Doing so will benefit our society and it will allow the younger members of our society to enjoy the benefit so many of us have already enjoyed!  Consider the motto of our country,  you guys... E pluribus Unum.  It's not about "me" it's about "US"!



It is not just for the "greater good" but also to your own benefit. When you were young you were producing more than you were consuming. That way the old could still consume while not producing (working). Now, you are consuming while the young are over-producing. The more the young produce (e. g. through higher mechanization, better products etc.) the more you can consume. Financial assets ("money") determine who gets how much from the cake. Productivity determines how big the cake will be.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 25, 2015)

Joful said:


> One thing worth noting is that living in an old house is a great way to keep your property taxes down, at least in our locale.  I'm paying about about 30% less than my neighbors for my beautiful old stone farm house, normalizing for square footage and acreage,


Thats the secret , If i were in a new 3000SF home around here id be paying 400-600% more. Re taxes. One BIG reason the old houses are much cheaper is they have not done a reassessment for 25 years. It cost too much.  But if you just had a new house built you will get that new assessment all by yourself .


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## mass_burner (Feb 25, 2015)

Yes, I'd be on the "paying taxes is good" band wagon if our tax money wasn't wasted in ridiculous and obscene ways.


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## jharkin (Feb 25, 2015)

Grisu said:


> Now you got me curious. I really don’t know why our taxes seem to be so different. First, I was wrong about the tax bracket. Looked it up and it is 25%. Nevertheless, my actual fed income taxes are a far cry from that. Here are my calculations based on the return for 2013:
> 
> Total income: 100% (W-2 plus capital income, interest etc. 1040, line 22)
> 
> ...



Aha!! I see it now.  Line 22 is not the same as your real gross income for the year... the wages/tips line from the W2 that you start with already excluded pre-tax witholding on your paycheck like 401k, 403b, health insurance premiums, health savings, child care savings, etc and so forth.  

If I caculatedted my % taxes against that figure it would be quite a bit lower than what I mentioend above, as I have big deductions for 401k and health insurance premiums.


EDIT:  I responded to fast this morning.. This actually doesn't make sense either. Line 22 is less than your raw gross income (it already excludes things withheld in your check like 401k and health insurance premiums). for the year so your taxes as a % of overall income would calculate higher even based on that denominator.

The only thing I can figure now is that you used either line 22 or your overall total raw income to figure the marginal tax bracket you are in and thus you are actually in a lower marginal bracket than you think. (you should use taxable income to figure the marginal bracket - i believe its line 43 you want).

Either that or a lot of your income is long term capital gains taxed at low rates... I dunno.


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## Ashful (Feb 25, 2015)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Thats the secret , If i were in a new 3000SF home around here id be paying 400-600% more. Re taxes. One BIG reason the old houses are much cheaper is they have not done a reassessment for 25 years. It cost too much.  But if you just had a new house built you will get that new assessment all by yourself .


That may be part of it, but in my case, my house has been reassessed right around the same year as the newer houses, due to a major addition at that time.  It was also a full assessment, not just incremental.  So, the old house still wins!

Yes, Grisu... I probably offset that savings in heating costs!


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## jharkin (Feb 25, 2015)

Joful said:


> That may be part of it, but in my case, my house has been reassessed right around the same year as the newer houses, due to a major addition at that time.  It was also a full assessment, not just incremental.  So, the old house still wins!
> 
> Yes, Grisu... I probably offset that savings in heating costs!




Around here they have field adjusters who drive around looking for improvements and they adjust *everyone's *valuation every year, new or old.  I think I might get a slightly lower valuation than a house of similar size and amenities in new construction just because the building is considered "functionally obsolete"  at this age...  (just love that word  ... my home inspection report was full of it)


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## Adios Pantalones (Feb 25, 2015)

jharkin said:


> Around here they have field adjusters who drive around looking for improvements and they adjust *everyone's *valuation every year, new or old.  I think I might get a slightly lower valuation than a house of similar size and amenities in new construction just because the building is considered "functionally obsolete"  at this age...  (just love that word  ... my home inspection report was full of it)



Time to paint some potholes in the driveway


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## Jags (Feb 25, 2015)

Adios Pantalones said:


> Time to paint some potholes in the driveway



Get this guy - he is really good.


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## Grisu (Feb 25, 2015)

jharkin said:


> Aha!! I see it now.  Line 22 is not the same as your real gross income for the year... the wages/tips line from the W2 that you start with already excluded pre-tax witholding on your paycheck like 401k, 403b, health insurance premiums, health savings, child care savings, etc and so forth.
> 
> If I caculatedted my % taxes against that figure it would be quite a bit lower than what I mentioend above, as I have big deductions for 401k and health insurance premiums.
> 
> ...



You mean lower? Higher income, same net tax = lower percentage tax of total income. 



> The only thing I can figure now is that you used either line 22 or your overall total raw income to figure the marginal tax bracket you are in and thus you are actually in a lower marginal bracket than you think. (you should use taxable income to figure the marginal bracket - i believe its line 43 you want).
> 
> Either that or a lot of your income is long term capital gains taxed at low rates... I dunno.



Your edit just killed most of my response  but yes, if our total income would be higher than what is on line 22 the actual tax burden would be even lower (line 22 already contains taxable capital gains btw. and is negligible in our case). 

Honestly, I never cared much about in which tax bracket I am. What I know is that with a combined income above the one which your wife would have I pay less than 20% in total taxes on our income. That does not even count tax-free/deferred contributions to healthcare, retirement, child care etc that our employer is paying and should also be considered income. (E. g. 401k contribution is non-taxed, future income for us; not a tax.)

Line 43 already takes into account a bunch of tax breaks you are getting and is not the total income you have. Just adding up all the salaries ending up in your bank account over the year should easily exceed that number. 

Just take you last year's tax returns and W-2(s) and see what percentages you come up with. I would be really surprised should your numbers look much different.


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## Adios Pantalones (Feb 25, 2015)

Jags said:


> Get this guy - he is really good.
> View attachment 154559


Exactly what I was thinking


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## jharkin (Feb 25, 2015)

Grisu said:


> Line 43 already takes into account a bunch of tax breaks you are getting and is not the total income you have. Just adding up all the salaries ending up in your bank account over the year should easily exceed that number.



Yes, what I am saying is that line 43 represent the actual share of income that gets taxed - and this is what determines the marginal bracket you are in.




Grisu said:


> Just take you last year's tax returns and W-2(s) and see what percentages you come up with. I would be really surprised should your numbers look much different.



I can tell you off the top of my head that last year the federal income tax I paid was 11% of my total gross income (not line 22 of the 1040, thats lower because my employer already subtracts 401, insurance and HSA from the total wages line)- probably about 12% if you use the AGI line on 1040.  If I add up all taxes I paid to all levels except for sales tax I come up with around 25% of gross income.

If I used the total income line from 1040 as denominator and also tried to guess at sales tax I think my figure for all taxes would be more like 30%..


FWIW... i guess we beat this to death.


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## ironpony (Feb 25, 2015)

just scan and post all your paperwork and we ill sort it out for you. We can fill out your forms for the best refund scenario. Then we could calculate your exact tax rate for you.


kidding DO NOT do it.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 25, 2015)

I left the W-2 world 27 years ago ,never going back. No faith in 401ks either. They are tied to the value of the dollar, stock market performance, and the honesty of the funds administrators. All of which may be questionable. Edit: let me add the ability of the owner to select the assets within to appreciate in value,a crap shoot at best.


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## Ashful (Feb 25, 2015)

Seasoned Oak said:


> No faith in 401ks either. They are tied to the value of the dollar, stock market performance, and the honesty of the funds administrators. All of which may be questionable.


Gold is awful cold under the mattress.  What's your retirement plan?


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## jharkin (Feb 25, 2015)

ironpony said:


> We can fill out your forms for the best refund scenario.



What is this _refund_ concept of which you speak?


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## ironpony (Feb 25, 2015)

jharkin said:


> What is this _refund_ concept of which you speak?






when you pay to much they give  you back your money. so Ive been told. They always ask me for more


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 25, 2015)

Joful said:


> Gold is awful cold under the mattress.  What's your retirement plan?


Sitting on a pile of mortgages in various stages of fulfillment. As for as paper funds ,i just dont have much faith in paper with numbers on it, Gold yes, gold will be worth something when the paper is not. Plus there is no government insurance for assets held in 401(k) accounts.


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## mopar440_6 (Feb 25, 2015)

jharkin said:


> I dont know state by state, but at least around here, anyone with a 4 year degree in a STEM field is starting out no lower than 60-70k..  People with advanced degrees start higher.  Easy to get into the 6 figures as an engineer with a few years of job experience...



I wish but it darn sure isn't like that around here (that or I'm getting screwed). I've got a 4 year ME degree from Penn State, 6 years experience, a ton of hands on skills, and I have yet to clear your lowest starting number. As far as income tax, I don't bother looking. We haven't owned the place long enough to know what the school and property taxes are going to be.


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## Swedishchef (Feb 25, 2015)

I am going to win the lottery tonight. If I do, I will pay each and every one of your taxes for the next year (property only).

Andrew


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## Ashful (Feb 25, 2015)

Swedishchef said:


> I am going to win the lottery tonight. If I do, I will pay each and every one of your taxes for the next year


Woohoo!



Swedishchef said:


> (property only).


Doh!


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## Ashful (Feb 25, 2015)

mopar440_6 said:


> I wish but it darn sure isn't like that around here (that or I'm getting screwed). I've got a 4 year ME degree from Penn State, 6 years experience, a ton of hands on skills, and I have yet to clear your lowest starting number. As far as income tax, I don't bother looking. We haven't owned the place long enough to know what the school and property taxes are going to be.


Some of the countryside around Carlisle is beautiful, and you have one heck of a Chrysler show every summer, but your local salary profile is absolutely abysmal.  If you'd be willing to relocate or commute to Philly or the Lehigh Valley, you'd probably be able to double your salary in short order.

Another issue is that management types don't always value "hands on" skills as much as they probably should.  I'm a "hands on" guy myself, and it took me 10 years in the working world to realize those skills were valuable to me, but were not going to help me get to higher salary positions.


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## jharkin (Feb 26, 2015)

location, location, location!... Its not just about real estate. When I said "around here" I was thinking Boston and of the first hand knowledge I have as a hiring manager in software engineering.  Boston is not the highest but we are probably not far behind silicon valley, NY, etc as as expensive areas goes.


Joful makes some good points as well.  If you want to progress beyond entry level, like it or not you have to develop a sense for office politics and try to judge what the organization wants in senior staff. In my company we have a technical track that goes all the way up to technical VP level - with salary and bonuses at each level that's competitive with (if a bit lower) than the managerial track.  However having been on the hiring and promoting end I will say if a team member just wants to sit in their office and do purely technical work all day you are never going to make it to the consultant, principle, fellow, etc level in the technical track in my group.  When I consider somebody to move up to thsoe levels Im looking for them to play a role at the team if not organizational wide level, being a mentor to junior technical folks, training, setting architectural direction for entire product lines and designing infrastructural the rest of the engineering staff builds on, creating technical standards and guidelines for the group to follow, and so forth.

In industries with high levels of outsourcing that also means you better pay very careful attention to what functions are kept local and which ones are going offshore, and plan appropriately. I can also add that there have been multiple times when I have actually passed on the candidate with the most impressive technical background to pick somebody who we feel will be a better team player and more open to learning new things.  Its often hard for us technical types as we tend to not have the personality type for it, but you have to get out there, stick your nose into company politics and judge where things are going, and play the game.

Bottom line, when you get past the first 2-3 levels in a technical organization - being able to do the math or write the code better than anyone else is no longer the sole, or even most important factor in how you will progress.


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## DBNH22 (Feb 26, 2015)

I live in NH.  There is no sales or income tax here but they make it up in property taxes.

For a 2400 square foot home with 3 acres of land in southern suburban NH I pay about 6K a year.  I'd say about 70-75% is for the schools.


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## DBNH22 (Feb 26, 2015)

jharkin said:


> location, location, location!... Its not just about real estate. When I said "around here" I was thinking Boston and of the first hand knowledge I have as a hiring manager in software engineering.  Boston is not the highest but we are probably not far behind silicon valley, NY, etc as as expensive areas goes.
> 
> 
> Joful makes some good points as well.  If you want to progress beyond entry level, like it or not you have to develop a sense for office politics and try to judge what the organization wants in senior staff. In my company we have a technical track that goes all the way up to technical VP level - with salary and bonuses at each level that's competitive with (if a bit lower) than the managerial track.  However having been on the hiring and promoting end I will say if a team member just wants to sit in their office and do purely technical work all day you are never going to make it to the consultant, principle, fellow, etc level in the technical track in my group.  When I consider somebody to move up to thsoe levels Im looking for them to play a role at the team if not organizational wide level, being a mentor to junior technical folks, training, setting architectural direction for entire product lines and designing infrastructural the rest of the engineering staff builds on, creating technical standards and guidelines for the group to follow, and so forth.
> ...




Regardless of what industry you're in, if you don't have people and communication skills, sooner or later you are viewed as a liability rather than an asset.


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## TreePapa (Feb 26, 2015)

“I like to pay taxes. With them, I buy civilization.”
Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.


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## DBNH22 (Feb 26, 2015)

“Collecting more taxes than is absolutely necessary is legalized robbery.”–*Calvin Coolidge*


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## jatoxico (Feb 26, 2015)

Swedishchef said:


> I am going to win the lottery tonight. If I do, I will pay each and every one of your taxes for the next year (property only).
> 
> Andrew


Ordered new car today, when can I expect the check?


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## jharkin (Feb 26, 2015)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Edit: let me add the ability of the owner to select the assets within to appreciate in value,a crap shoot at best.



Correct.  Which is why Index funds and broad diversification are such brilliantly simple solutions.


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## DBNH22 (Feb 26, 2015)

jharkin said:


> Correct.  Which is why Index funds and broad diversification are such brilliantly simple solutions.




Agreed, but everyone wants to get rich quick.  Gotta have that bling bling..........


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## Bobbin (Feb 26, 2015)

I live in Maine.  Allegedly, one of the highest taxed states in our country.  I also share ownership in a NH property; I'm always shocked at how high the tax bill on the latter property is.  Lol.  "Live Free or Die", baby!


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## DBNH22 (Feb 26, 2015)

Bobbin said:


> I live in Maine.  Allegedly, one of the highest taxed states in our country.  I also share ownership in a NH property; I'm always shocked at how high the tax bill on the latter property is.  Lol.  "Live Free or Die", baby!




Well NH doesn't have an income or sales tax but they do tend to make it up in the property taxes.  I think most of the other New England states do have an overall higher tax burden than NH but it's not as if NH is some low tax shangri la.

If Maine had more decent paying jobs we probably would have bought a home in Maine as opposed to NH and raised our family there.  I'm addicted to Maine's beautiful coast.  It's my zen place.


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## Bobbin (Feb 26, 2015)

They don't "tend to" make up the difference with property taxes, Dana.  They have no alternative.  When one of the local assessment stooges tried to add a "view tax" to our bill we pointed out that there was a _telephone pole _dead center on the "view" they wanted to tax.  Lol, give me a break.  (grasp at few more straws, why don't you?).

Maine definitely has its problems with respect to taxation and jobs.  Much of the state has no swift, reliable internet access (god bless Fairpoint Communications and Time Warner Cable!) and like NH we struggle with high utility costs.  It will be interesting to see how successfully the estimable (cough) Mr. LePage sells his proposed tax package to a state that has been historically quite "far thinking",


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## Swedishchef (Feb 26, 2015)

mopar440_6 said:


> I wish but it darn sure isn't like that around here (that or I'm getting screwed). I've got a 4 year ME degree from Penn State, 6 years experience, a ton of hands on skills, and I have yet to clear your lowest starting number.


Lots of my friends are engineers...did completed their degree and their P. Eng certificate. They started at 40K and barely make more than that 10 years later.


jatoxico said:


> Ordered new car today, when can I expect the check?


No dice.
I'll try again next week!


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## jatoxico (Feb 26, 2015)

Swedishchef said:


> Lots of my friends are engineers...did completed their degree and their P. Eng certificate. They started at 40K and barely make more than that 10 years later.
> 
> No dice.
> I'll try again next week!


Oh no I was counting on that!


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## Ashful (Feb 26, 2015)

Swedishchef said:


> Lots of my friends are engineers...did completed their degree and their P. Eng certificate. They started at 40K and barely make more than that 10 years later.


Yikes!  That sort of ruins any romantic notions I'd have had to move to Canada.  I was earning more than that doing internships in college, while I worked on my BSEE.  Standard fare for a mid-career electrical engineer around here is $100k - $140k, depending on area of specialization.


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## BrotherBart (Feb 26, 2015)

Gotta remember Joful that a P.Eng cert in Canada is specialization neutral. I know for sure at the sign of the flying red jackass we were paying double e's and chem e's in Canada a hell of a lot more than $40K. Now Industrial Engineers, not so much.

When the first batch of Industrial Engineers were hired and showed up for work at our Beaumont, Texas refinery the chem e's took them into a room and explained to them the difference between industrial engineers and real engineers.


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## Swedishchef (Feb 27, 2015)

Joful said:


> Yikes!  That sort of ruins any romantic notions I'd have had to move to Canada.  I was earning more than that doing internships in college, while I worked on my BSEE.  Standard fare for a mid-career electrical engineer around here is $100k - $140k, depending on area of specialization.


That salary I quoted is in my home province where the cost of living is peanuts. My spoke to a buddy of mine and he explained that I was sorta mistaken..those salaries were from 14 years ago (guess I am getting old now). Average starting salary for an eng. is 60K. What can you expect: you're not a partner in a firm and you're at the bottom of a food chain with a large firm.
http://talentegg.ca/incubator/2013/09/17/average-starting-salaries-engineering-edition-2013/

I should have gone into chemical engineering instead of chemistry!

Andrew


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## ironpony (Feb 27, 2015)

this thread has become really interesting. everyone is disclosing some very private information.

What I have gotten out of this is;

most of the people on here are in the way above average income range.
we are burning pellets and wood to save some dollars that we do not necessarily need.

Conclusion;

we were raised with good values and morals, thus contributing to our success in life.
we also work hard for what we have, no instant gratification around here, hard work and persistence.


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## Ashful (Feb 27, 2015)

Nice closer, pony.  Now where's Bart, to draw the curtain?


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## Jags (Feb 27, 2015)

And on that note....


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