# Solar installed and producing!!



## mikeathens (Apr 10, 2008)

After three days of work, the PV system is installed, connected to the grid, and producing power.  This is a 4000 watt grid-tied system, estimated to produce an average 400 kWh/month.  The system was installed using State of Ohio grant money combined with the remainder financed by my wife and I.

24 X Sharp 167 Watt panels and Sunny Boy 4000 Watt inverter.

Installation by Dovetail Solar and Wind.  I had wanted to do this myself, but in order to be eligible for the state grant money, it had to be done by a certified installer (which I am not!).


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## webbie (Apr 10, 2008)

Wow, looks great - and should do the job for you!

Ma. also has some good PV programs - they pay a certain amount per watt, and more if the solar PV is made here (Evergreen solar) and then even more if your house is not worth a lot and your income is below a certain amount.

I think all told you can get up to $4 a watt.


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## mikeathens (Apr 10, 2008)

Unfortunately, the state discontinued the program as of (I believe) March 4.  I got in just in time.  By the way, the three amigos in the picture are of the guys who did the installation.  The other dude, Drake, is the electrician.  He just moved here from Colorado.


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## Jay H (Apr 10, 2008)

Looks nice. NJ has some nice rebates but I don't qualify because I have too many trees blocking my southern exposure and trees not on my property or even my neighbors...    

I saw something on DHDT (Discovery HD theater channel) where they interviewed Larry Hagman (of the TV series Dallas fame) who has a ranch somewhere with 3 huge-ass solar arrays... said he was paying like $2800/mo in electric bills and the system would pay for itself in 10 years....   $2800x12 = $33,600 x 10 years = $336,000.  Now that's a pretty expensive system.  Said his main electric solar array did 6000kv/month or something like that and he had one just for his water pump (400ft aquifer) one for his house and another one which wasn't specified...     

Solar without the state rebates is not feasible for me and in any case, my electric bills are very low to begin with... something like $14-$22 a month.  But for fun, I looked into it when I moved in.

Jay


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## SE Iowa (Apr 10, 2008)

Mike, if you don't mind telling. What did the total cost of this come in at? How much was your rebate? I just got my electric bill and need to do something. The wife just won't get on board with all the energy saving things I want. She tries but gets frustrated turning on/off powerswithes, different lighting from CFL's, pulling the window shades at night during winter, opposite in summer, etc, etc. Dare I say she likes things convenient and figures the extra $50 bucks a month is worth it.


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## mikeathens (Apr 10, 2008)

Total system cost was around $32,000+, installed.  We had a site visit, and shading/roof pitch/compass direction were determined.  The system was designed around this, along with roof area.  Turned out ours was nearly ideal - almost due south and 10/12 pitch roof.

We got our quote and sent the application to the state.  Our grant was around $14,XXX ($3.XX/Watt).

We had to finance the entire amount, have it installed, and then state inspected.  Once everyhting is done, we will get our check.  The bank has committed to reducing our loan by the grant amount when it is deposited.

Federal taxes for 2008 will get us a $2000 tax CREDIT (availabe nationwide).

Our final out-of-pocket cost (not including financing, closing costs, ect.) will be in the $15,000+ range.  Payback about 15 years assuming (I think) 2% rate increase /year.  However, our power company faces deregulation, and the state is talking about re-regulation.  Power company still say we'd be facing rate increases of at least 30% regardless, so we might be looking at quicker pay back period.


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## begreen (Apr 11, 2008)

Awesome Mike. With the heatpump and solar you folks have taken that old place into the future. Wish that was my house but WA state only kicks in for rebates if the equipment is made in WA. Unfortunately, it may be years (if ever) that we will have good choices for made in WA panels. Then there is that redwood on the south side of the house ...


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## SE Iowa (Apr 11, 2008)

Mike, what are your electricity rates currently per KWH? I think ours is $0.125 for the first 250 kw's and then goes down to $0.095 per kw thereafter.


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## mainemac (Apr 12, 2008)

Mike 

You Rock

Way to go
I am so impressed that is great.


BTW

I am looking into a solar hot water system; need  a site visit to make sure garage is not blocked 
by too many trees( if so cut em down thats next years fuel!!)

State kicks in 2500
Feds take the same 2000 with  the tax credit.
Total cost 10000-2K -2.5K= 5,500 . Pay back I think 8-10? years.

Not sure how much oil I burn to heat hot water for 2 preteens wife and myself but I gotta
believe that once both kids are teenagers I will be needing a lot more hot water!!


Again congrats and enjoy


Tom


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## jpl1nh (Apr 12, 2008)

I'm jealous.  Our house here in NH faces ESE and we are on the bottom of the north side of a steep forested hill.  Not much sun from October thru February.  May try to do solar hot water but wish we could o what you've done.  Nice job!


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## mikeathens (Apr 14, 2008)

Thanks for all of the positive feedback.  The electric industry is supposed to be "deregulated" at the end of '08, but Ohio legislature freaked out when they saw rates go up 70%+ in other states, so they're scrambling to "re-regulate".

Currently, it's $79 for 650 kWh, but the actual rate is (I think) $0.067/kWh, with a bunch of other BS tacked on, sort of like the phone bill. 

Next project will be to ditch the propane on-demand water heater and replace it with solar.


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## d.n.f. (Apr 14, 2008)

That is a sweet setup.

Now if I only got more than two hours of sun in the winter...


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## mikeathens (May 8, 2008)

483 kWh after four weeks of production (exactly 28 days).  I have seen a high of 28 kWh in one day, and a low of 9 kWh in one day.  We have had some pretty cloudy skies lately, so I'm curious what those consecutive long, sunny summer days will bring.  I'm hoping for a high monthly production of 650+ kWh (average 21 kWh/day).

Here's another picture, highliting the glory of the panels...we are currently about 100 kWh "in the bank" for this period.


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## mayhem (May 8, 2008)

That would almost completely get me off the grid...my highest bills are rarely over 600kwh, normally under 450 in the spring and fall (when we're not running the heat or cooling).

I like the fact that you basicaly just covered one whole side of the roof, looks alot cleaner that way.  Do you have a cleaning and maintenance schedule?  I've always thought that a well applied coat of Rain-X or similar product would be a good idea for solar panels to trya nd keep them as clear as possible.


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## mikeathens (May 8, 2008)

I asked the same question to the "expert".  No maintenance.  Just let it hum through the days.  I suppose a little pollin or dust might affect efficiency in the fraction of a percent range, but not enough for me to risk my life.  The rain seems to do a good enough job.


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## mayhem (May 8, 2008)

Interesting.  The rain around here is pretty dirty so I was just curious.  Since you have a meter you can check regularly it shoud be easy enough to determine if you're running at peak efficiency or not and if a regular cleaning helps improve it.


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## Jerry_NJ (May 8, 2008)

I may have overlooked, this is already a long thread and most I could say has been said...but:
You look to be far out of town, any neighbors?   A 100 acre (estimate) farm about 15 miles from me put up a large array about 100 feet back from the country road passing by it, and at that point there is a neighbor/home.  They complained about having to look at the array... this must have been an array like Hagman's many $100K investment.  I'd think a roof mounted should never be a source of neighbor complaints. 
I assume you heat with wood, did you say heat pump somewhere in the thread?  I have a geothermal unit and it is efficient enough that a few hundred KWH per month would be a lot of heating or cooling, still your array isn't enough to handle my electrical load, averages over 1000 KWH per month..somewhere near 1,600 KWH during heating season. 

I love the idea of solar power, the one idea that keeps coming up in my mind, especially when I turn on the garden hose on a sunny day and have hot water flowing out until the length of hose if emptied.  A simple solar black pipe run along the South side of my house as the feed line to my electric water heater would be a big help, not sure my wife would accept that running along the house behind her perennial flower garden.  I believe this type (with a real collector on the roof) of hot water boost is required in places like Israel..and other sunny energy starved (oh, that's us too these days) countries.


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## mikeathens (May 8, 2008)

Jerry_NJ said:
			
		

> I may have overlooked, this is already a long thread and most I could say has been said...but:
> You look to be far out of town, any neighbors?   A 100 acre (estimate) farm about 15 miles from me put up a large array about 100 feet back from the country road passing by it, and at that point there is a neighbor/home.  They complained about having to look at the array... this must have been an array like Hagman's many $100K investment.  I'd think a roof mounted should never be a source of neighbor complaints.
> I assume you heat with wood, did you say heat pump somewhere in the thread?  I have a geothermal unit and it is efficient enough that a few hundred KWH per month would be a lot of heating or cooling, still your array isn't enough to handle my electrical load, averages over 1000 KWH per month..somewhere near 1,600 KWH during heating season.
> 
> I love the idea of solar power, the one idea that keeps coming up in my mind, especially when I turn on the garden hose on a sunny day and have hot water flowing out until the length of hose if emptied.  A simple solar black pipe run along the South side of my house as the feed line to my electric water heater would be a big help, not sure my wife would accept that running along the house behind her perennial flower garden.  I believe this type (with a real collector on the roof) of hot water boost is required in places like Israel..and other sunny energy starved (oh, that's us too these days) countries.



I live in a community where many (not all, by any means) people strive to live in a community as sustainable as possible.  Athens has a local farmer's market that (at least I am told) has been studied by people across the country.  I have an 85 acre farm, and there's really no way to see my array other than from the road, except if you are on my property "illegally".  Otherwise, it seems to be kind of a tourist attraction.  we heat with wood, but I had a heat pump installed about 2 years ago for my daughter.  My wife and I didn't mind coming home to a 50 degree house, but I thought it was somewhat unfair to my baby.  It is rarely used, except on the coldest days when it drops below the 63 degree set-point.  My favorite new feature is the air conditioner  Summer days in Ohio suck, to say the least.  I can't seem to fall asleep when the nighttime temp is 75 and relative humidity is in the 80% range.  That's my splurge.  There are tons of designs and manufacturers out there for solar thermal.  Do a search.  That's my next project.


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## Redox (May 9, 2008)

See!  Some people actually like heat pumps!  I was beginning to think I was the only one here...

Chris


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## Jerry_NJ (May 9, 2008)

I've been on a heat pump for 20 years, and it has been geothermal for the last 15 years.  We like it, especially since the cost of oil has gone up 400% in that time and the cost of electricity hasn't even doubled...I'd guess electricity had gone up 50% in the last 20 years.  The unit I have is two speeds, and it runs (computer/processor controlled) to maximize efficiency.  This causes it to run for long periods in low speed, the most efficient, and it is super quiet at that speed, forced air of course.  

But, this is one of the reasons we like supplemental wood heat, a nice hot to the touch warm spot on a cold winter's night.


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## d.n.f. (May 9, 2008)

Hate to steal the thread here but I have a heat pump question.
I know that below -12 to -15C they don't work anymore and the electric furnace part kicks in.  But can you over ride this and just heat with your wood stove instead?  My neighbour has a heat pump but no wood stove and is telling me you can't do this.

This concerns me as we get maybe two to three weeks of -12C to -18C weather where I am at.

Also, is the 'central air' part of the heat pump in summer as efficient as central air?


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## colebrookman (May 9, 2008)

d.n.f. said:
			
		

> Hate to steal the thread here but I have a heat pump question.
> I know that below -12 to -15C they don't work anymore and the electric furnace part kicks in.  But can you over ride this and just heat with your wood stove instead?  My neighbour has a heat pump but no wood stove and is telling me you can't do this.
> 
> This concerns me as we get maybe two to three weeks of -12C to -18C weather where I am at.
> ...



Try this http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/Default.aspx., for some great info on the forum.
Ed


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## d.n.f. (May 9, 2008)

thanks for the link, will check it out.  Was going to post these questions in a few weeks, but since it was being discussed...


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## Jerry_NJ (May 9, 2008)

I have had a geothermal hp for about 15 years, and as it uses a ground loop it works fine when the air temp is real low, or real hot for air conditioning.  To you point, when I have the insert running I turn the thermostat way down and the hp stays off for hours.  Same could be done with an air-to-air heat pump...but maybe that's not your operational question, d.n.f.


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## d.n.f. (May 9, 2008)

yeah air source.  The upfront cost of geo seems too expensive although I live right on a huge lake so I guess it could be done.


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## Redox (May 9, 2008)

d.n.f. said:
			
		

> Hate to steal the thread here but I have a heat pump question.
> I know that below -12 to -15C they don't work anymore and the electric furnace part kicks in.  But can you over ride this and just heat with your wood stove instead?  My neighbour has a heat pump but no wood stove and is telling me you can't do this.
> 
> This concerns me as we get maybe two to three weeks of -12C to -18C weather where I am at.
> ...



Weeelll, since you asked...

It's not that they don't work at that temperature, they just don't provide enough heat, thus the reason for the electric backup.  At very low temperatures, you may want to set it on emergency heat and give the heat pump a rest.  It will cost you a little more in electricity, but you will get warm.  If you bump the thermostat back when the stove is going, it will start the heat pump automatically if the stove goes out.  It is possible to set up an outdoor thermostat to accomplish this automatically, but repeatedly starting a compressor when it is this cold isn't the best thing for it.  York units used to do this, but most manufacturers will tell you to just let it run.

The cooling cycle is just as energy efficient as a normal A/C.  SOme would argue there is a ssmall loss in the reversing valve, but it isn't significant.

Yes, ground source is very expensive to install, but is probably the most efficient way to condition a building in just about all circumstances.  However, if you have made the investment in a wood stove, the air-air heat pump is a great compromise in cost/efficiency.  They are great in the shoulder seasons when it is a little too much to fire up the stove.

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread on solar panels...


Chris


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## mikeathens (May 27, 2008)

we just got our first electric bill reflecting a full billing cycle with our solar panels - $3 and some odd cents.  Pretty sweet  Of course, we also just got the statement for our solar panel loan  :gulp:


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## Jags (May 27, 2008)

Mike, what happens if you were constantly in the "black" for electricity production?  Does the electric company write you a check?  Or is it better to size the pv array to your actual use?


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## mikeathens (May 28, 2008)

The advice I was given was to size the system to produce your annual average, or a little less.  The reason is that the power company only pays you half (or less) of what they sell the power for.

I have "net metering", meaning that the company will bank excess usage on a rolling 12-month basis.  In other words, if I produce an excess of say 500 kWh in June, I have through the following May to use that power.  After that time, I get a credit on my bill at the reduced rate.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (May 28, 2008)

I want my BLACK METAL roof (aka,, massive solar gain :sick: ) covered in PV and collectors. But I didn't know the utility pays a heavy discount on your elec. If that's true shouldn't they be subsidizing these installs (as in pick up the 1/2 that NYS won't cover)? Think about it for them. They are getting free electric, with no maintenance or overhead.


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## Telco (May 28, 2008)

Now let's think about this.  The power company is in the business of making money, but they are letting you use their infinite sized battery, aka the transmission network, to store your power for free.  After a year, rather than make you take the power off, they are buying your excess.  Be glad they pay half, some power companies just keep it and pay nothing at the end of that year, and in California some folks are finding themselves paying MORE on a net metering plan (look up the E6 net metering plan) and generating 90 percent of their own power than they would if they were on the grid, ON TOP of the expense of buying all that equipment.  And it's not like you aren't getting a benefit here, instead of having to buy, maintain and dispose of a large, expensive battery bank, you are using theirs and they are maintaining it.  How much would enough batteries to hold the excess cost over the course of a year?

Sounds to me like you have a pretty good deal here.  You get almost free use of the power company grid, less work to do, less real estate taken, less environmental hazard, AND money back on excess power.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (May 28, 2008)

Telco?? Shouldn't you be working there in your utility office? Instead of surfing on Hearth.com??


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## Telco (May 28, 2008)

I am working.  But that utility I work for is the phone company, not the power company.  

Did I offend with my defense of the power company?  Thought this place was about the facts, not the agenda. :coolsmirk:


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## Redox (May 29, 2008)

Telco said:
			
		

> I am working.  But that utility I work for is the phone company, not the power company.
> 
> Did I offend with my defense of the power company?  Thought this place was about the facts, not the agenda. :coolsmirk:



I didn't take it that way, but any one who comes out in defense of the utility company is suspect (big huge  :cheese: here!)  Kinda like someone coming to Exxon's defense.

These net metering agreements aren't the result of the utilities generosity; it was made into law back in '05 and is probably the single biggest shot in the arm that the renewable energy biz needs.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_metering

You ARE using the grid as a battery, but subject to their rules and regulations.  Most people would consider this a benefit, but the grid isn't necessarily everyone's cup of tea...

Chris


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## Jerry_NJ (May 29, 2008)

I don't know anything from experience on generation of my own electrical power, but "Telco" made sense to me, but then I'm the guy who tried to blame our government, not Exxon, for the run away cost of oil products.  That got me a threshing on another thread.


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## Telco (May 29, 2008)

Well, for the record I don't work, nor have I ever worked, for any power company.  Been a telecom man my whole working life, but I've never been a "company man", an "industry man" or a "union man".  Quite frankly, if it weren't for the money I'd be out of here and into a different industry so fast there would be a thunderclap caused by the air rushing in to the place I was standing at.  I only work because I like to eat and I don't like being rained or snowed on at night.

So far as my defense of the power company goes though, there is no disputing the fact that you have a choice between using the power grid to store power for almost nothing, and the potential to have the power company buy excess, or you can stay offgrid and spend as much as 10 grand in batteries for purchase, maintenance, storage and disposal.  Folks have been focusing on what the power company gets without focusing on what they are getting out of the deal themselves.

Now you wanna read something about why oil got so high so fast, check this link out.  If what this page is saying is true, you only need to capitalize 6 percent of an oil futures contract to buy it, meaning the speculators who are bidding up oil to 130 bucks and beyond only have about 10 bucks invested per barrel.  They are buying and selling the oil with a lot of borrowed money, and worse yet this market is no longer regulated due to a law signed by Bush in 2006.  But further, if this article is correct, oil prices are a bubble which is about to pop much like the dot.com bubble did.  If you want to get oil prices back down, require that 100 percent of the price be capitalized to buy and suddenly nobody will be speculating it out of sight like it is now.

There is no real reason for oil to be as high as it is now, as crude inventories are high, usage is down, and the peak oil bubble is a myth perpetuated by the fact that the oil industry has NEVER tried to confirm more than 30 years of supply at any one time.  Not to mention that oil is apparently produced by natural action of the Earth .  If it really was all dead dinosaurs and plants, there hasn't been enough life on Earth since the beginning to account for the oil we've already burned, nor has there been any findings of "quasi-oil" anywhere.  If oil came from dead plants and dinosaurs, then we should have found partially converted plants and animals at some point.  On top of this, oil floats on water, yet we find oil both underneath water, and at levels tens of thousands of feet deeper than any fossil has ever been found.  And, on top of all this, oil fields that have been pumped dry, and verified as being out of oil, are being found to be full again after 20 years or so pass.  There are too many holes in the official story for me to buy it all.  On the other hand, matter changes under heat and pressure when atoms change arrangement, so I can see how the Earth could produce petrochemicals as part of its normal operation.

Whether oil is a renewable resource or not though, has no bearing on the need to cut pollution and consumption.  Unclean burning of petrochemicals IS known to cause air pollution, asthma, ect, and based on THAT alone we should be trying to end dependence on it.


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## Jerry_NJ (May 29, 2008)

Thanks telco, for the tutorial and "educated" speculation, your word give me hope for the future.  Perhaps the golden lining to this oil "shortage" is a WAKE UP CALL to update USA regulations and tax incentives (I'm not trying to simplify this to a specific recommendation) and to get better efficiency and diversity for satisfying our needs for energy.

Still, it seems the technology to clean up emissions on coal and oil burning have a long way to go before we can "breath" a sigh of relief at the new found clean air.


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## mikeathens (May 30, 2008)

A couple of things:

1.  I had to pay a $100 net-metering "application fee".
2.  Net metering does nothing for you in the event of a power outage.  I had the option of spending an additional $3000 for batteries, and I would *STILL* have been connected to the grid.  The batteries provide you the added benefit of back-up power during outages.  I decided that the extra hazardous waste and energy needed for the production of the batteries wasn't in my best interest (yes, I do know how much energy is required to produce solar panels and transport them to my site)
3.  I would like to be completely AEP-free, but I looked at it as many others do:  I'm using the grid as a battery.  HOWEVER, the agreement is that I get to bank power production on a rolling, 12-month basis.   That's what I paid that F-ing $100 fee for.  I think it ended up being a half-sheet of paper with a signature.  They get their money one way or another.


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## colebrookman (May 30, 2008)

Mike from Athens said:
			
		

> A couple of things:
> 
> 1.  I had to pay a $100 net-metering "application fee".
> 2.  Net metering does nothing for you in the event of a power outage.  I had the option of spending an additional $3000 for batteries, and I would *STILL* have been connected to the grid.  The batteries provide you the added benefit of back-up power during outages.  I decided that the extra hazardous waste and energy needed for the production of the batteries wasn't in my best interest (yes, I do know how much energy is required to produce solar panels and transport them to my site)
> 3.  I would like to be completely AEP-free, but I looked at it as many others do:  I'm using the grid as a battery.  HOWEVER, the agreement is that I get to bank power production on a rolling, 12-month basis.   That's what I paid that F-ing $100 fee for.  I think it ended up being a half-sheet of paper with a signature.  They get their money one way or another.


 Nice job Mike; thanks for the updates.  We are sending our site plan application this weekend.  Site should be no problem, I have a chain saw, and we are contacting two vendors for their pricing.  Should be a 2.0kW or so. Did you get a solar tracker or roof mount?  Again, great job and thanks for stepping up and doing your part.
Ed


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## eba1225 (May 30, 2008)

Mike,

That looks great and am glad to hear that it is doing so well.  I have looked into it but unfortunately PA does not have the types of incentives that you have for solar.   Have been looking into solar for sometime but the ROI of 15 years (by my calculations) is a little too long.

Erik


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## mikeathens (May 30, 2008)

eba1225 said:
			
		

> Mike,
> 
> That looks great and am glad to hear that it is doing so well.  I have looked into it but unfortunately PA does not have the types of incentives that you have for solar.   Have been looking into solar for sometime but the ROI of 15 years (by my calculations) is a little too long.
> 
> Erik



My payback period was something like 15+ years (based on something like 10% annual rate increase and inverter replacement at 10 years).  That takes into account the state grant and $2000 federal tax credit.  I don't even want to know what it would be without incentives.

In all, it is more expensive power than coal for sure.  In fact, at least double cost.  I guess I could have bought "carbon offset credits"  :roll:  like a certain ex-vice president that I won't mention.  It was one of those decisions that doesn't make sense financially.  But, the wife said "if we're gonna' talk the talk, we had better walk the walk."  Hearing her say that sold me on it right away, because she was 100% right.  I hope that we can inspire others to take the plunge, too!


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## eba1225 (May 30, 2008)

Based on your system overall cost what percentage was the installation?


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## mikeathens (May 30, 2008)

Cost of installation/design was just under 12% of the total cost.  I had originally wanted to do it myself, but after seeing these guys battle wasps on a two story, hot-as-hell 10/12 pitch roof for 9 hours a day, I now consider it money well spent.


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## Telco (May 30, 2008)

Money just became more worthwhile, at least it would if you lived in the Tulsa area.  AEP just raised rates about 21 percent starting this month by passing on a fuel surcharge.  Sez in there that by state law AEP can't charge more for fuel than they actually spend on it, ie no profit off fuel surcharges, but AEP sez their natural gas costs have gone up 40 percent.  New rate hikes are just in time for the summer air conditioning season.  I'm SOO glad I just spent 800 bucks adding insulation to my roof last summer.  I was hoping to see lower utility bills this summer, guess I'll just have to be happy with no net change in outlay for electricity.  We already keep the house between 78 and 82 in the summertime, any hotter than that and the cat starts panting all day.  Guess the next step will be to build a shade for the air conditioner.  May as well give it every advantage it can get, like not making it try to push air past a cabinet that's already been superheated by the sun.     :down:

Crap, can't do that, the HOA Nazis would wait till I was done, then start whining about it and threaten hundred dollar a day sanctions till I removed it, just like they tried with my TV antenna.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (May 30, 2008)

Well, in NY the TELEPHONE COMPANIES pass on hikes by getting their property taxes lowered. Seems they think that while land and residences had been rapidly appreciating, the TELEPHONE COMPANY thinks their property has declined in value. Depreciation they say. "Cept most of their poles and lines are never replaced until someone hits a pole with a car. Oh, and of course their base material - COPPER - has anyone seen what those prices have done over the past couple of years?

So excuse me all to hell when I say the utilities should pay for the installation when they are basically getting 'free' electric.

Yup, I know you may not work for one of the sheister telephone companies here in NY.


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## Telco (May 30, 2008)

Wow, such venom!  I'm not a decision maker, all I do is work on circuits.  I have zero input in how the company handles asset depreciation.  So no, no excuse bub.  I may as well be yelling at you about how New York elected Hillary Clinton to office, when her husband is directly responsible for 9/11, when as a New Yorker you only have one vote and may not have voted for her.  Ever wonder how Bubba got the federal budget into the black?


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## Jerry_NJ (May 31, 2008)

Well, ISeeDeadBTUs it appears you don't own any AT&T;stock, or you'd know damn well it has depreciated.   And unless I misunderstood what going on since 1984, and I don't mean the George Orwell novel, you've had an ever increasing choice on where you buy your telephone service.  Hope you're enjoying some of the lousy cable telephone packages.


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## mikeathens (Jun 2, 2008)

You guys are gonna get my nice, informative thread dumped into the ash can!


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## colebrookman (Jun 2, 2008)

Mike from Athens said:
			
		

> You guys are gonna get my nice, informative thread dumped into the ash can!


You have a great and much needed thread going on solar and it's really important for those of us that are thinking along the same lines. It seems that anytime the mention of going green comes up the issue of $$ payback comes up. Yet when spending on vehicles, boats or even furniture pay back is almost never mentioned. Our way of only thinking $$$ and not what is good for our little planet and our neighbours is not always in the forefront. Your thread helps us get a real life view, a practical view on what we can achieve if we so desire. Many thanks Mike.
Ed


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## Jerry_NJ (Jun 2, 2008)

Yes, back to solar energy...it is often on my mind, and that's why I started reading this thread...and started commenting on extraneous side topics, sorry.

As I may have said, every time I turn on the garden hose that is laying out in the sun I am reminded of my idea of installing out on the sunny side of the house a simple black pipe line/loop on the water feed to my hot water heater.  Of course, it would have to be drained when freezing weather comes...there you go, I'm back to the subject, albeit not electricity generation.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Jun 2, 2008)

Telco said:
			
		

> Wow, such venom!  I'm not a decision maker, all I do is work on circuits.  I have zero input in how the company handles asset depreciation.  So no, no excuse bub.  I may as well be yelling at you about how New York elected Hillary Clinton to office, when her husband is directly responsible for 9/11, when as a New Yorker you only have one vote and may not have voted for her.  Ever wonder how Bubba got the federal budget into the black?



Well, if I was a betting man, I'd bet it was NOT by pimpin' out Hillary :gulp:


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## colebrookman (Jun 2, 2008)

Jerry_NJ said:
			
		

> Yes, back to solar energy...it is often on my mind, and that's why I started reading this thread...and started commenting on extraneous side topics, sorry.
> 
> As I may have said, every time I turn on the garden hose that is laying out in the sun I am reminded of my idea of installing out on the sunny side of the house a simple black pipe line/loop on the water feed to my hot water heater. Of course, it would have to be drained when freezing weather comes...there you go, I'm back to the subject, albeit not electricity generation.



This month's Farm Show newspaper shows a guy who did just that. He had a scrap piece of 8" stainless steel pipe, 24' long. He painted it black, bent it into a U shape and mounted it on top of his roof. A couple of valves to the cold and hot water lines and he was in business... He uses it until freezing weather and then just drain's it for winter. Solar hot water is much easier to do on the cheap but for solar electric most states that have rebates require professional installers. Mass even requires that for an insulation rebate which is a bummer. Check out Home Power for more on solar.
Ed


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## mikeathens (Jun 25, 2008)

This month's electric bill showed up.  Pretty satisfying to see "amount due: $0.00" and "additional credit to be applied to future bills".  I know I have a loan to pay off for the panels, but nuthin' to the electric co!!


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## mikeathens (Aug 20, 2008)

Thought I'd provide an update on this system.  It's working great, and I have had no problems to date.

Our meter that is read for billing reads 40 kWh.  That means we've used a total of 40 coal-fired kWh in four months.  This morning, our cumulative production was around 2080 kWh, meaning on average around 500 kWh/month since installed.  Of course, I'm expecting this production rate to drop significanly over the shorter days of winter.

I think what put us over the "0" mark was the use of the AC for a couple weeks (parents complaining about heat when they visit) and the use of the dehumidifier in the basement.

I am happy with the decision to install the pv system, even though our $/kWh is aobut double that of buying coal power off the grid.  It has also really made my family consider what applicanes we use and when.  We are definitley making better use out of our clothes lines, for one.

For those of you on  the fence, if you can afford it, take the plunge!


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