# In 5 years there will be no permanent Arctic ice left.



## begreen (May 2, 2019)

Think about that for a moment. 
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2018/01/15/carbon-pollution-has-shoved-the-climate-backward-at-least-12-million-years-harvard-scientist-says/


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## paulnlee (May 3, 2019)

And what's the weather forecast for this weekend. Oh yeah a guess


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## Doug MacIVER (May 3, 2019)

Search, "How many predictions of no Arctic ice." You get,  *1*2345Next 32,100,000 results?!? Shame we've already lost 7 years so quickly. Add Greenland ice will be collapsing with it, move to higher land today.

If we try ,"new predictions of no arctic ice". The result are,"

*1*2345Next  44,400,000 results
cannot offer reason this stuff showed up with paste? Brought out a chuckle though.






	

		
			
		

		
	
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## WinterinWI (May 3, 2019)

begreen said:


> Think about that for a moment.
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2018/01/15/carbon-pollution-has-shoved-the-climate-backward-at-least-12-million-years-harvard-scientist-says/



That article was written 1.5 years ago, so we are down to 3.5 years left now, I guess we are toast. Might as well just run open headers on the cars at this point.


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## begreen (May 3, 2019)

Actually, it was written 1.3 yrs ago, but who's counting. More importantly, what changes have each one of us made in our lives to reduce our individual contribution to this issue?

Instead of demonstrating weak searches and relying on Google to bring more advertisements, follow source data instead.
https://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/


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## vinny11950 (May 4, 2019)

begreen said:


> Actually, it was written 1.3 yrs ago, but who's counting. More importantly, what changes have each one of us made in our lives to reduce our individual contribution to this issue?
> 
> Instead of demonstrating weak searches and relying on Google to bring more advertisements, follow source data instead.
> https://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/
> View attachment 243862



At this point, Begreen, I don't even think it's worth spending the time discussing these things with the older generations (I am part of those generations, generation X).  We are gleefully causing damage to the environment and leaving a mess for the next generations.  And along the way, we are hearing some really silly excuses and counter explanations to dumb down the debate.  Tom Nichols calls it the Death of Expertise.


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## SpaceBus (May 4, 2019)

begreen said:


> Think about that for a moment.
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2018/01/15/carbon-pollution-has-shoved-the-climate-backward-at-least-12-million-years-harvard-scientist-says/





vinny11950 said:


> At this point, Begreen, I don't even think it's worth spending the time discussing these things with the older generations (I am part of those generations, generation X).  We are gleefully causing damage to the environment and leaving a mess for the next generations.  And along the way, we are hearing some really silly excuses and counter explanations to dumb down the debate.  Tom Nichols calls it the Death of Expertise.


At least those younger than gen x were raised to want to save the environment. Maybe it's not a total loss.


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## begreen (May 4, 2019)

I am an early boomer and have always loved our planet's diverse environment. This probably started from growing up with woods surrounding our home and a lot of summer camping in the Berkshires. I didn't buy into the plastics for everything idea and have always appreciated people that create smarter solutions with lower planetary impact. The changes now occurring are profoundly disturbing and impossible to ignore yet denial is a common response.


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## vinny11950 (May 4, 2019)

We are living with a problem that will get much worse or get much much much worse.  Either way it gets worse and most people just don't have the imagination to imagine how bad it can get.

Droughts and fires in the summer, heavy flooding in the spring and fall.  The equator is getting hotter, which is driving migration north and south, because that's what humans that want to survive do, they migrate/adapt or die.  These changes are having a great impact on our societies and cultures.  People are going to keep migrating to the cities best economically suited to handle climate change, leaving large parts of the country under populated and underperforming economically.  The same goes for immigration from the hotter climate countries.  The smart thing would be to start planning for these changes now, imagining new cities better situated and prepared for the population shifts.  But that is hard to do when some states don't even allow for the term climate change to be used.  So we are just going to chaotically fall into this.


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## Doug MacIVER (May 4, 2019)

One of those old boomers here. This seems along way from arctic ice. Got think that we(USA) have come a long way in cleaning up and moving away from creating a new W R Grace or Love Canal situation.  If we are talking Carbon, $5.00 gas (Ca. just about there again) will take a lot of carbon from the air. Clean ups in mining and old industrial sites are something to work on, but do we really create these any more?

As bad as the old day pollution was, I don't think the overall short-sightedness is allowed exist much in our economy.Pollution, increases in economy, and life expectancy all had huge gains. I would think the environment goes in with that. My thought , overall, we(USA) are doing a pretty good job improving stuff. Like so many things, there is always room for improvement.


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## begreen (May 4, 2019)

Unfortunately bigger problems have been happening since then, like major oil spills, tailing pond bursts, the Alberta tar sands, etc.. The administration just removed rules put in place to prevent another BP disaster. Overall, emissions are on the rise, not declining. A lot of this is the result of there being many more people on the planet now, but also increasing pushes by the fossil fuel and chemical industries into areas like agriculture and plastics production. Instead of slowing down, we are rushing toward the tipping point.

Back to arctic ice: Ice-albedo feedback is accelerating the loss of arctic ice. the more exposed water in the Arctic, the more heat is absorbed. What are the implications? A slower or disappearing jet stream is possible. The difference between the cold polar extremes and warmer lower latitude temps is what drives our weather. Normally a strong jet stream contains polar cold but in recent years with a weaker and less stable jet stream, we are seeing polar outbreaks where the polar cold spills down over the continent. Extreme summer weather is another effect. Dramatically increased methane emissions from thawing permafrost is a serious concern without cold and snow cover. Then there is the loss of habitat and food to indigenous peoples and wildlife. Uncertain but possible are the losses of ocean thermoclines which would have far-reaching implications for everyone.


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## Doug MacIVER (May 4, 2019)

begreen said:


> Unfortunately bigger problems have been happening since then, like major oil spills, tailing pond bursts, the Alberta tar sands, etc.. The administration just removed rules put in place to prevent another BP disaster. Overall, emissions are on the rise, not declining. A lot of this is the result of there being many more people on the planet now, but also increasing pushes by the fossil fuel and chemical industries into areas like agriculture and plastics production. Instead of slowing down, we are rushing toward the tipping point.
> 
> Back to arctic ice: Ice-albedo feedback is accelerating the loss of arctic ice. the more exposed water in the Arctic, the more heat is absorbed. What are the implications? A slower or disappearing jet stream is possible. The difference between the cold polar extremes and warmer lower latitude temps is what drives our weather. Normally a strong jet stream contains polar cold but in recent years with a weaker and less stable jet stream, we are seeing polar outbreaks where the polar cold spills down over the continent. Extreme summer weather is another effect. Dramatically increased methane emissions from thawing permafrost is a serious concern without cold and snow cover. Then there is the loss of habitat and food to indigenous peoples and wildlife. Uncertain but possible are the losses of ocean thermoclines which would have far-reaching implications for everyone.


 from when you lived in New England?


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## Doug MacIVER (May 4, 2019)

Instead of demonstrating weak searches and relying on Google to bring more advertisements, follow source data instead.
https://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/

that is a syrian answer? One of my favorite retorts from my golf days? Man your syrian! got to bring a sense of humor once in a while, maybe one a year or so?


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## begreen (May 4, 2019)

It's not a light subject or a laughing matter. I may be gone by the time the worst happens, but it is certainly the most serious issue of my children's lifetime.

But to keep you laughing all the way, here's another perspective.


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## Doug MacIVER (May 4, 2019)

brings me right back to the ash can. look your smarter than I. but you know I see an    , you just don't recog that you my internet friend are one(/), now go out and save the world and belittle those that disagree/you., remember no laugh rule ( golf days again) is in effect( or correct me if it is affect). enjoy life and think better of those that don't wish to belittle opposite thoughts and opinions. go back to arctic and I will not interject again.


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## begreen (May 4, 2019)

“When the situation was manageable it was neglected, and now that it is thoroughly out of hand we apply too late the remedies which then might have effected a cure. There is nothing new in the story. It is as old as the Sibylline books. It falls into that long, dismal catalog of the fruitlessness of experience and the confirmed unteachability of mankind. Want of foresight, unwillingness to act when action would be simple and effective, lack of clear thinking, confusion of counsel until the emergency comes, until self-preservation strikes its jarring gong–these are the features which constitute the endless repetition of history.” - Winston Churchill


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## rowerwet (May 8, 2019)

Funny, I think some politician said that about an ice free artic years ago,  but he was wrong....


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## WinterinWI (May 8, 2019)

The climate has changed for as long as our planet has existed. I'm not saying we should just throw garbage everywhere and expect no consequences or stop looking at data, but when no one has the ability to look at data and reliably tell me whether it is going rain, snow, or be sunny tomorrow, only extreme arrogance would claim that we are all doomed in 3.7 years.

These types of articles have a long history of false doomsday predictions, and IMO actually hurt the cause of green energy. Although some people will read it and will follow it without question, which of course is the objective for articles like that.


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## begreen (May 8, 2019)

And then there is the non-sensational, 1500 page UN report just released. 
https://www.un.org/sustainabledevelopment/blog/2019/05/nature-decline-unprecedented-report/

In the meantime, some rub their hands with glee at the prospect of an ice-free Arctic. 
https://www.newyorker.com/news/dail...tinction-vs-mike-pompeo-at-the-arctic-council


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## Fiddler (May 13, 2019)

hopefully the rising seas will drown the NJ, NY & CA

.............and with that Fiddler realizes he has done just fine running his wood stove without this site. Adios


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## vinny11950 (May 13, 2019)

Fiddler said:


> hopefully the rising seas will drown the NJ, NY & CA
> 
> .............and with that Fiddler realizes he has done just fine running his wood stove without this site. Adios



Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.


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## paulnlee (May 13, 2019)

vinny11950 said:


> Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.



I don't think so. Like me he probably came here for info( never did get any by the way ) and doesn't like being preached to about how evil he is because he has a stove w/o a cat and sometimes it smokes. Just saying.


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## CaptSpiff (May 13, 2019)

Fiddler said:


> hopefully the rising seas will drown the NJ, NY & CA
> 
> .............and with that Fiddler realizes he has done just fine running his wood stove without this site. Adios


With your 350-400 foot asl geography you're probably feeling pretty safe. Me too at 136' asl. But the dystopian forecasts of 4-8+ feet of sea level rise will leave non of us unaffected. Our kids grand-kids will live with large area migration, and not just coastal cities, but inland river cities as well. Think about how much more water vapor capacity there'll be in the seasonal spring storms that flood our mid west now.

I know we have an amazing technological talent pool that can do amazing things when pushed, and I'm counting on that to get us thru the next millennia. But I'm sure life won't be the same as in these "good ol days" we live in today. Lets hope there's enough soil for the rest of us to push some daisies thru.

Yeah,... it's a cold rainy day, and I'm reading another winy post on Greenhouse Gases. What else would I be thinking about.


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## paulnlee (May 13, 2019)

CaptSpiff said:


> With your 350-400 foot asl geography you're probably feeling pretty safe. Me too at 136' asl. But the dystopian forecasts of 4-8+ feet of sea level rise will leave non of us unaffected. Our kids grand-kids will live with large area migration, and not just coastal cities, but inland river cities as well. Think about how much more water vapor capacity there'll be in the seasonal spring storms that flood our mid west now.
> 
> I know we have an amazing technological talent pool that can do amazing things when pushed, and I'm counting on that to get us thru the next millennia. But I'm sure life won't be the same as in these "good ol days" we live in today. Lets hope there's enough soil for the rest of us to push some daisies thru.
> 
> Yeah,... it's a cold rainy day, and I'm reading another winy post on Greenhouse Gases. What else would I be thinking about.



Ever puts ice cubes in a glass? Did it spill when melted or are you a fast drinker? Any way as far as those floods, TOO MUCH SNOW due to yup, global warming


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## blades (May 13, 2019)

I've said this before- 50's,60's, till mid 70's we were all going to freeze to death ( climate change) or freeze/ starve to death from Nuclear winters.  Now we are all going to be nothing but dried out flakes on a planet akin to Mercury. 
Earth has warming and cooling cycles, Old Sol is contracting and as it does it puts out more radiation on many wave lengths.  it also changes the gravational pull on the earth / moon which in turn also affects various aspects of our weather patterns along with the various undersea disturbances( volcanoes/ plate shifts) which directly influence the ocean currents by which the jet streams are also affected. Homosapiens are but a tiny fraction of this. I am a early boomer production- maybe my edumacation was too limited- not.


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## begreen (May 13, 2019)

And that hypothesis is backed by?


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## Highbeam (May 14, 2019)

I always get a chuckle when this ice recedes and uncovers a village where people once lived.


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## Ashful (May 14, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> I always get a chuckle when this ice recedes and uncovers a village where people once lived.



https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wor...less-ice-in-arctic-ocean-6000-7000-years-ago/


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## Highbeam (May 14, 2019)

Ashful said:


> https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wor...less-ice-in-arctic-ocean-6000-7000-years-ago/



From that article:

"Regardless of the causes of this earlier warmth, it makes a nonsense of claims about “tipping points”, “methane release” and “melting permafrost” scares."

I'm just a dorky swiss engineer that tries to only worry about things in my circle of control.


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## Ashful (May 14, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> From that article:
> 
> "Regardless of the causes of this earlier warmth, it makes a nonsense of claims about “tipping points”, “methane release” and “melting permafrost” scares."
> 
> I'm just a dorky swiss engineer that tries to only worry about things in my circle of control.


The facts cited in this article are enlightening, but I don’t agree with all of their opinions or conclusions, on this.  Just because some fraction of humanity managed to survive some past geological or meteorological events far more dramatic than what faces us in the near future, doesn’t mean we won’t be dramatically affected.

Heck, I have trouble sleeping at night when something at work is bothering me, and what we face here could be just a little more unnerving.  I don’t have the ability to let things out of my control not bother me.


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## begreen (May 14, 2019)

Yes, even the conclusions in the article are guarded. Skepticism in science is essential and healthy. Denial is not.


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## paulnlee (May 14, 2019)

begreen said:


> Yes, even the conclusions in the article are guarded. Skepticism in science is essential and healthy. Denial is not.



Except when the denial comes from other scientists, right?


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## begreen (May 14, 2019)

paulnlee said:


> Except when the denial comes from other scientists, right?


Scientists with an agenda have often left science behind. That goes true both ways.


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## begreen (May 14, 2019)

And then outside of science, there are those faced with covering the costs.
https://e360.yale.edu/digest/climate-change-could-make-insurance-unaffordable-for-most-people

https://www.nola.com/opinions/2019/05/attention-louisiana-climate-deniers-insurers-say-climate-change-now-biggest-risk.html


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## SpaceBus (May 15, 2019)

Our insurance is fairly high due to our proximity to the water. Before Maine we considered starting over in FL, but insurance costs are out of control, and of course the worsening storms. It seems that most of the gulf states and the south east will soon be under water, regardless of the cause.


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## SpaceBus (May 15, 2019)

It does seem extremely petty to me that folks are in denial of climate change and the effects of pollution. If you wouldn't have the exhaust from manufacturing pumped into your own home, then why let it out into the atmosphere and water ways? I feel like people are arguing some stupid things lately. It's very clear that there are changes happening on earth, it doesn't matter what causes these changes or why it happened. The focus needs to be on continuing the elimination of waste and noxious pollutants (regardless of golabal temperatures) rather than bicker about who's fault it is.

I simply don't understand why people care about this being a natural process or not. People are dying from this.


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## blades (May 15, 2019)

I am not denying that there is a certain amount of factual evidence too support climate change - but most of what we hear are for the benefit of few making money off of it.  Their reasoning leaves a lot out of the picture- Volcanic eruptions- just one puts more into the atmosphere than all of mankind's entire history. ( remember the one that blew just a few years ago that blacked out most of Europe?)  Volcanic eruptions on the ocean floors and plate shifts have seriously changed some of the major ocean currents  such as the one that flows off the north west coast of the states and Canada ( happens to be a warm water one ) and that has a pretty huge effect on the jet-stream that swings from the northwest to eastern areas of the states.  Another  is off the African coast or Indochina area can't remember which right now.  Earths magnetic poles have been shifting/ wiggling as well but likely has been going on for eons- more effects.    Its all out there just got to read  - oh by the way when when that huge cauldron under Yellowstone blows all bets are off ( more doomsday stuff). Then again it might never happen. Truth or fiction I do not know, factual part is the size of the volcanic system there. Nothing wrong with conservation and pollution reduction. If you want to get real picky you can blame pollution on science in the shortsighted view.  ( that ought to get some hairs standing, lips quivering, eyebrows raised and a lot of capital letters sent my way - thats ok I am in a bit of lousy mood today any way)   well any way its been fun - got to get to work and make a lot of contaminates now.


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## Highbeam (May 15, 2019)

We all pollute our environment. Some more than others but the exhaust from my car or woodstove should not be "pumped into my home" to prove a false point. There are some pretty bad polluters that ought to be reigned in but where do you draw that line?


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## SpaceBus (May 15, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> We all pollute our environment. Some more than others but the exhaust from my car or woodstove should not be "pumped into my home" to prove a false point. There are some pretty bad polluters that ought to be reigned in but where do you draw that line?



I'm talking about folks that claim burning fossil fuels has no environmental impact. Or the individuals that throw garbage out of their windows. You know what I'm talking about.


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## begreen (May 15, 2019)

CO2 just passed 415ppm. That is the highest since before man was on the planet, including all volcanic eruptions since then. Coincidentally a temp of 87º was recorded high in the Arctic a couple of days ago. Most concerns are not about making a profit. Actually quite to the contrary, the most funding for denying is coming from those that are still profiting immensely. What is crazy is that we all benefit from cleaner air & water and a healthy ecosystem. This alone should be a motivator. Instead, we continue to steal from our children's future for our own short term benefit. Like any credit loan though, eventually one has to settle and pay up. 





In the meantime, disinformation campaigns make it harder for educators to teach the facts. 
https://www.apnews.com/d6d431f046c9494d8bf5bab5a07bfb55


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## blades (May 15, 2019)

Might want to do some in-depth digging on temps and one way adjustments as well as the effects of ocean currents  ain't saying it doesn't happen but it is being bandied about like chicken little and the sky. And the us Gov ain't no poster child in this either.


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## begreen (May 15, 2019)

Can do if you will provide a link or two. In the meantime, the very measurable and serious concern is the absorption of CO2 into the oceans. The consequences of ocean acidification are global and with potentially dire results.

"The current change appears to be the fastest in at least 300 million years, with the fastest known natural acidification event – occurring 55 million years ago – being probably ten times slower."
https://public.wmo.int/en/resources/bulletin/monitoring-ocean-carbon-and-ocean-acidification-0


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## Doug MacIVER (May 15, 2019)

begreen said:


> Can do if you will provide a link or two. In the meantime, the very measurable and serious concern is the absorption of CO2 into the oceans. The consequences of ocean acidification are global and with potentially dire results.
> 
> "The current change appears to be the fastest in at least 300 million years, with the fastest known natural acidification event – occurring 55 million years ago – being probably ten times slower."
> https://public.wmo.int/en/resources/bulletin/monitoring-ocean-carbon-and-ocean-acidification-0



Check of your stats with a widely accepted chart. 300m/yrs temp is a  co2 temp follower. 55m/yrs a wide split temp/co2, opposite of what should happen. today in general terms crossing each other. One has to accept the chart; looking around I have not seen a better one.History would tell us the we may have a + temp, flat , or -temp. Just a questioning thought on temp, not delving into acidification (i see for my writing, we both spelled acidifiacation wrong). chart dates to 2001 but over millions of years small errors a PS "the endless repetition of history.” - Winston Churchil"


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## SpaceBus (May 15, 2019)

Doug MacIVER said:


> Check of your stats with a widely accepted chart. 300m/yrs temp is a  co2 temp follower. 55m/yrs a wide split temp/co2, opposite of what should happen. today in general terms crossing each other. One has to accept the chart; looking around I have not seen a better one.History would tell us the we may have a + temp, flat , or -temp. Just a questioning thought on temp, not delving into acidification (i see for my writing, we both spelled acidifiacation wrong). chart dates to 2001 but over millions of years small errors a PS "the endless repetition of history.” - Winston Churchil"
> View attachment 244186


What the chart doesn't show is the methane released by the school bus sized herbivores covering the planet. Dinosaur emissions caused high global temperatures, but the carbon was offset by the also super sized flora.

Even if data is in a chart, in quotes, cited, or from a "reputable" source doesn't mean it's not being manipulated. The global climate is changing, it's foolish to bicker about why.


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## bholler (May 15, 2019)

paulnlee said:


> I don't think so. Like me he probably came here for info( never did get any by the way ) and doesn't like being preached to about how evil he is because he has a stove w/o a cat and sometimes it smokes. Just saying.


What info did you ask for and didn't get?  Can you give examples of people preaching that those without cat stoves are evil?  There are plenty of noncats that burn cleaner than many cat stoves.


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## Doug MacIVER (May 15, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> What the chart doesn't show is the methane released by the school bus sized herbivores covering the planet. Dinosaur emissions caused high global temperatures, but the carbon was offset by the also super sized flora.
> 
> Even if data is in a chart, in quotes, cited, or from a "reputable" source doesn't mean it's not being manipulated. The global climate is changing, it's foolish to bicker about why.


take history and read it as you wish, we are a little(sarc) smaller than our ancestors, tomatoes smaller than than what the Sinclair Dino ate.Believe or reject . co2 and high temp didn't cause or affect their extinction, comparing our brain size and intell  i think man(so sexist), strike that, people will survive. one last point , amongst ordinary folks, the accusation of use of manipulation data as false is akin to the political talk of the day. As Bg said bring in some links to prove what your sayin. I'm waiting for mother nature to get her due. The two, man and nature, will get it right something the Sinclair Dino couldn't do.


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## SpaceBus (May 15, 2019)

Doug MacIVER said:


> take history and read it as you wish, we are a little(sarc) smaller than our ancestors, tomatoes smaller than than what the Sinclair Dino ate.Believe or reject . co2 and high temp didn't cause or affect their extinction, comparing our brain size and intell  i think man(so sexist), strike that, people will survive. one last point , amongst ordinary folks, the accusation of use of manipulation data as false is akin to the political talk of the day. As Bg said bring in some links to prove what your sayin. I'm waiting for mother nature to get her due. The two, man and nature, will get it right something the Sinclair Dino couldn't do.



Beleive what you want to believe, just don't let some colorful boxes control your mind.


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## Doug MacIVER (May 15, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> Beleive what you want to believe, just don't let some colorful boxes control your mind.


here is your blk/wht box
	

		
			
		

		
	





SpaceBus said:


> Beleive what you want to believe, just don't let some colorful boxes control your mind.


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## begreen (May 15, 2019)

Doug MacIVER said:


> take history and read it as you wish, we are a little(sarc) smaller than our ancestors, tomatoes smaller than than what the Sinclair Dino ate.Believe or reject . co2 and high temp didn't cause or affect their extinction, comparing our brain size and intell  i think man(so sexist), strike that, people will survive. one last point , amongst ordinary folks, the accusation of use of manipulation data as false is akin to the political talk of the day. As Bg said bring in some links to prove what your sayin. I'm waiting for mother nature to get her due. The two, man and nature, will get it right something the Sinclair Dino couldn't do.


It's a bit of a tangent. But as long as it has been brought up, there are 15 times more domestic animals on land now than wild animals. Add a massive amount more humans.

As for the colorful chart by amateur Monte Heib, he is hardly "widely accepted" as an authority, nor is his hand-drawn, erroneous chart. (with no link to source) Quite the opposite it seems.
https://adamant.typepad.com/seitz/2007/09/planetologist-o.html
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/i...t-role-of-co2-in-climate-change/#.XNzJvdNKjOQ


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## Doug MacIVER (May 16, 2019)

begreen said:


> It's a bit of a tangent. But as long as it has been brought up, there are 15 times more domestic animals on land now than wild animals. An a massive amount more humans.
> 
> As for the colorful chart by amateur Monte Heib, he is hardly "widely accepted" as an authority, nor is his hand-drawn, erroneous chart. (with no link to source) Quite the opposite it seems.
> https://adamant.typepad.com/seitz/2007/09/planetologist-o.html
> http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/i...t-role-of-co2-in-climate-change/#.XNzJvdNKjOQ





begreen said:


> As for the colorful chart by amateur Monte Heib, he is hardly "widely accepted" as an authority, nor is his hand-drawn, erroneous chart. (with no link to source) Quite the opposite it seems.[/QUOTE
> 
> Erroneous? Chart clearly references these two guys? (lower left corner)
> 
> ...


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## SpaceBus (May 16, 2019)

Doug MacIVER said:


> here is your blk/wht box
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You look at a colorful box to access this forum... It's a metaphor.


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## CaptSpiff (May 16, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> ....... The global climate is changing, it's foolish to bicker about why.



Really ???

Here's what I hear being said: "Give me all your money and I'll decide how to save the lives of your grandchildren's grandchildren."


The delivery of the "climate change" fanatics is so poor it smells of snake oil.

Lets talk about realistic paths to ecological and environmental improvements that do not economically displace half of the population.


Fact: NYS-DEC just last night rejected a NatGas underwater pipeline connecting supplies in NJ to the Rockaway's, Queens County and Long Island (basically the back door to NYC). This pipeline would lay next to an existing underwater pipeline and increase the area's NG capacity by 14%.

Fact: During the past 3 winter's the 1-2 week Polar Vortex events, the regional gas companies have declared Operational Flow Orders (OFO's) causing price spikes and the industrial users (including many of the largest dual fuel Electrical Generating Plants) to change over to heavy #6 bunker oil. NYC recently implemented a mandate for in-city industrial users of #6 heavy oil to convert to #2 or NG.

Claims: The additional NG availability would allow residential home heating customers the choice to convert from #2 heating oil to NatGas when their systems are ready for upgrade. The regional gas company states it will reintroduce a "new construction gas moratorium" to protect the system from future supply shortages. Industrial user will face higher cost of conversion without available fuel supply competition.

Claims: "Environmental activists" protesting outside the NYS-DEC offices in NYC are claiming victory and are cancelling their "Hunger Strike" in opposition to the pipeline. They strongly oppose any new "fossil fuel supplies" into the region (because we're all gonna die in 12 years if we do).


That smell of snake oil I mentioned earlier,... that's the smell of more liquid petroleum products being transported via barge, truck and trailers throughout NYC and Long Island. More traffic on the highways, more traffic in the communities, more liquid pertolium spills on the ground and into the drinking aquifer. Sounds like another ecological and environmental win to me.... (for Big Oil and the Koch Bros).

rant mode off


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## paulnlee (May 16, 2019)

For your reading pleasure, or not. " Dark Winter" by John Casey. Very short read


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## Doug MacIVER (May 16, 2019)

I am posting this here, not for discussion or comment, it is close to the topic. Info onlyhttps://www.huffpost.com/entry/jay-inslee-jobs_n_5cdc8ae4e4b09648227aae06


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## Doug MacIVER (May 16, 2019)

part of the problem is this prediction stuff? throw enough against wall, yada-yada. Midwest/ Cali. as an example
 #1https://www.21stcentech.com/climate-change-update-return-dust-bowl/

#2https://www.theguardian.com/environ...-1000-years-climate-change-predict-scientists

#3https://www.climatecentral.org/news/why-californias-drought-isnt-going-anywhere-17277
 Notice dates?

Fast forward, today we are readi
#! https://www.tomorrowsworld.org/news-and-prophecy/midwest-flooding-not-over

#2 podesta got both covered?https://thinkprogress.org/the-impac...roughts-more-floods-fewer-crops-af7b033f1a7c/

#3 this one is optimistic.http://www.montereycountyweekly.com/blogs/food_blog/it-s-official-dust-bowl-brewing-is-coming-soon-to/article_8d9dc9ce-e210-11e8-a091-1b05fd675622.htm

just to bring out the alarmism.

back to arctic, I follow this everyday. Why, I'm curious how it's doin, http://ocean.dmi.dk/arctic/meant80n.uk.php  You can follow 51 yrs of Arctic temps here


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## Woody Stover (May 16, 2019)

begreen said:


> And that hypothesis is backed by?


Well, I heard somewhere that other planets in the solar system are warming as well. I think there are a lot of factors at play in warming, including the sun.
Regardless, it's ridiculous that we are still driving around in hundred-year-old technology. Hey, we were supposed to flying around like the Jetsons by now! 


> In the meantime, some rub their hands with glee at the prospect of an ice-free Arctic.
> https://www.newyorker.com/news/dail...tinction-vs-mike-pompeo-at-the-arctic-council


Yeah, another chance for businesses to save money and create more jobs for us working-class Americans in the heartland. We'll be thrilled...until we come home from work one day and our houses have floated away. 


blades said:


> I am not denying that there is a certain amount of factual evidence too support climate change - but most of what we hear are for the benefit of few making money off of it.


I don't think anybody makes more off it than Big Oil. They have a big stake in keeping things as they are, and they have the firepower to make it happen. I agree, though, there's more than just us causing the planet to heat up. Still, at least we can control what _we_ are doing to contribute to the problem. But changing would require work and sacrifice, and who the heck wants to do that? 


begreen said:


> In the meantime, the very measurable and serious concern is the absorption of CO2 into the oceans. The consequences of ocean acidification are global and with potentially dire results.
> https://public.wmo.int/en/resources/bulletin/monitoring-ocean-carbon-and-ocean-acidification-0


That absorption is helping with the atmosphere right now but like you say, you have to pay off the loan at some point.
Frank Zappa said it; "The Ocean is the Ultimate Solution."


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## WinterinWI (May 16, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> The global climate is changing, it's foolish to bicker about why.



The "why" is what matters. Without understanding all aspects of what is happening, the solution suggested by the original article (radical WWII style transformation) is speculation. It may be based on data and our current understanding of why, but our knowledge to evaluate all factors of our planet/solar system is woefully inadequate to make grandiose claims like the original article that started this thread.

Of course the climate is changing, it always has. Efforts should be made to advance our understanding, and we should try to be environmentally responsible without crippling ourselves. The article in the initial post is just another recycled message with a political purpose. To sum it up: The earth's fate is sealed in 3.6 years, do as I say if you want you kids/grandchildren to survive.

I can feel the eyes rolling from anyone who heard the same story 25 years ago.


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## begreen (May 17, 2019)

Yup, that is an issue. The problem is that Gore and others were not completely incorrect about the issue or the need to address it. They are criticized for speaking up early and championing gradual changes early on to minimize impact instead of drastic and much more expensive late measures during a crisis. Unfortunately, most Americans are complacent until things reach a crisis state. It's much easier to whip the masses via gross disinformation into a contrived, but very costly war.


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## begreen (May 17, 2019)

In the meantime, Europe got the message and started making changes in the 1990s. By now they are further along and gaining momentum toward the goal of fossil fuel independence and reduced emissions. They also have tackled waste head-on, making dramatic progress. All this while providing national healthcare and keeping their economies intact.


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## Doug MacIVER (May 17, 2019)

well every thing ends off topic?Answers lakeroadster at the end with? " It's much easier to whip the masses via gross disinformation into a contrived, but very costly war." the in second post adds at the end ?(europe) " They also have tackled waste head-on, making dramatic progress. All this while providing national healthcare and keeping their economies intact." in the middle says? "Unfortunately, most Americans are complacent until things reach a crisis state."  Ok stop reminding us we are the problem, own up to your one sided drivil(sp). America sucks and we just don't get it,your healt hcare  mess is melting ice, and because everyone hates us. geez stick to the topic, starting to question why we are still here.
 then there is the non answer to the erroneous chart? chart posted as the dial for global change, ie, no ice in the attic????


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## Ashful (May 18, 2019)

begreen said:


> In the meantime, Europe got the message and started making changes in the 1990s... All this while providing national healthcare and keeping their economies intact.


REALLY?  Holy crap, begreen... you need to get to Europe sometime.  You know I travel there semi-frequently for work, and can tell you it has become a mess over the last decade, in every sense of the word.  I sincerely hope we aren't following their lead.

Not knocking their environmental efforts, but seriously... Europe is almost becoming unsafe for travel, in the last three years.  And their economy... oh, holy chit... their economy!


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## SpaceBus (May 18, 2019)

Ashful said:


> REALLY?  Holy crap, begreen... you need to get to Europe sometime.  You know I travel there semi-frequently for work, and can tell you it has become a mess over the last decade, in every sense of the word.  I sincerely hope we aren't following their lead.
> 
> Not knocking their environmental efforts, but seriously... Europe is almost becoming unsafe for travel, in the last three years.  And their economy... oh, holy chit... their economy!



What makes it so unsafe for travel? I lived in Europe full time (Italy and the UK) from 03-07. I get economies appear to be unstable, brexit, etc. But is it really any different from any time period in European history? People are trumping up immigrants and diaspora from the middle east like the world is ending, as if migration is new....


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## Ashful (May 18, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> What makes it so unsafe for travel? I lived in Europe full time (Italy and the UK) from 03-07. I get economies appear to be unstable, brexit, etc. But is it really any different from any time period in European history? People are trumping up immigrants and diaspora from the middle east like the world is ending, as if migration is new....


I was spending about a week per year there in 03-07, and yes, those were good years.  In 2017 Germany’s immigration rate jumped from 30,000 per month to over 200,000 per month, completely outrunning their MOI’s ability to process them.  They have had to repurpose school gymnasiums and other large public buildings to cot floors just to bed all of them while they await processing.  The other larger mainland nations aren’t far behind, mostly varying by their economic standing, as the immigrants don’t want to immigrate to those countries having financial difficulty.  

Out in town, you will now find most public attractions surrounded by concrete highway barriers and metal detectors, thanks to a recent rash of terrorist attacks.  Tourist kidnappings are up 20% in five years.  Germany’s net crime rate has been increasing at 10% per year, the last three years, and according to their MoFA, 90% of that increase is committed by recent immigrants.  

Europe today is not what it was 10 years ago.  I have been traveling there pretty consistent since the mid-1990’s, and the change in some countries (eg. Germany) is shocking.

I have not been back to Italy since about 2009, so no comment there.  I have been in the UK a few times, most recently around 2016, and they seem more isolated from the problems hitting mainland.  The UK isn’t really “Europe”, in most social contexts, they are at such odds with the mainlanders.  No wonder they want out!


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## SpaceBus (May 18, 2019)

Ashful said:


> I was spending about a week per year there in 03-07, and yes, those were good years.  In 2017 Germany’s immigration rate jumped from 30,000 per month to over 200,000 per month, completely outrunning their MOI’s ability to process them.  They have had to repurpose school gymnasiums and other large public buildings to cot floors just to bed all of them while they await processing.  The other larger mainland nations aren’t far behind, mostly varying by their economic standing, as the immigrants don’t want to immigrate to those countries having financial difficulty.
> 
> Out in town, you will now find most public attractions surrounded by concrete highway barriers and metal detectors, thanks to a recent rash of terrorist attacks.  Tourist kidnappings are up 20% in five years.  Germany’s net crime rate has been increasing at 10% per year, the last three years, and according to their MoFA, 90% of that increase is committed by recent immigrants.
> 
> ...



This immigration thing is quite serious and is a direct result of Western nations destroying the Middle East and their local climates becoming too hot anyway. People want to refuse these immigrants, but they have nowhere to go. Their countries are rubble and 130f during the day. I'm not surprised crime is increasing when there are an additional million people living in every country in Europe. Trust me, those immigrants don't want to be there any more than you want to leave your lifetime home to live some place nobody wants you.

Like begreen said, this is all a result of selfishness, particularly of the western world.

I agree, the UK isn't mainland Europe, but I was able to travel from the UK to Slovakia, Italy, Germany, and many other nations on the super cheap. I actually hate the UK and have no desire to ever go back. English people are jerks. Wales and Scotland are alright, but have never been to Ireland or the Isle of Mann.


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## Ashful (May 18, 2019)

I’m 1/4 English, so 1/4 jerk. [emoji14]

All recorded crime comes down to affluence, or lack thereof.  When people complain about immigrants, they’re really mostly complaining about poor, disenfranchised people.  Of course, it’s not hard to understand NIMBY attitude, either.

I wonder how mass migration affects polar ice?  Lots of calories being burned, there. [emoji14]


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## SpaceBus (May 18, 2019)

Ashful said:


> I’m 1/4 English, so 1/4 jerk. [emoji14]
> 
> All recorded crime comes down to affluence, or lack thereof.  When people complain about immigrants, they’re really mostly complaining about poor, disenfranchised people.  Of course, it’s not hard to understand NIMBY attitude, either.
> 
> I wonder how mass migration affects polar ice?  Lots of calories being burned, there. [emoji14]



The mass migrations are a symptom of climate change, but I'm sure the fossil fuels used to move these thousands and thousands of people around the globe is making the problems worse. It's a difficult situation. This is why I don't understand why people fight about humans causing this issue or not causing it. The climate is already changing, so let's just focus on damage control since the "fix the problem" boat already sailed (or never existed). The southeast is turning back into a swamp/under water, deserts are getting hotter, things are changing and polluting more certainly isn't going to help, even if that wasn't the root cause of these shifts. 

Regardless of the actual amount of damage being done by living unsustainable lifestyles something needs to change. Lobster, haddock, cod, and herring were once seafood staples are now going away. Laws are soon to go into effect that will cripple the fishing industry, but they will also keep these species around for the future. Nobody is saying we need to stop eating seafood, but that we need to sustainable plan to eating seafood. This is just one example of thousands. It's like the whole world is being managed in the same way the DoD runs business.


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## begreen (May 18, 2019)

Huge tangent. The point about Europe was how they have been making progress for a quarter of a century toward reducing CO2 and waste. I will say that I expect to be in Europe in the fall so I will see how it feels to me. I have friends that just got back this week from 40 days in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, France and England. They go every other year so I'll ask them about changes, though overall they say they had a great time. I also have a friend and coworker that now is the CEO of a major German software company. He and his family moved there about 5 yrs. ago, so I will ask their opinion. He has never mentioned security in several conversations. His kids love their schools. But this is all for another thread and topic. In the meantime, there are parts of Philly, NY, Chicago, LA and even Seattle that are not exactly where one wants to wander around in, especially after dark. Europe is more vulnerable due to location and is seeing a lot more climate refugees. This will not get better. Seems like this thread has worn itself out. Start another if one wants to do society comparisons.


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