# Boxwood Stove Turning White



## itsanaddiction (Oct 13, 2010)

I have an 18" X 24" Vogelzang standing boxwood stove that has turned white around the exterior rear and sides of the stove; also around the "collar" where the damper is.  The area where it is turning white also seems to be the area where the fire burns the hottest.  Anyone know why the stove is turning white???


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## jeff_t (Oct 13, 2010)

It's a combination of cheap paint and uncontrollable fire due to a far from airtight stove.


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## Todd (Oct 13, 2010)

Sure sign of overfire, get rid of that death box before you burn your house down and purchase a safe EPA approved stove.


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## vvvv (Oct 13, 2010)

cheap paint, if the stove doesnt warp or u cant see fire thru the seams its fine, i think. probably should have a flue damper so to control the fire. blow a fan on that hotspot & it will cool the stove/heat the house. EPA stove has constant airfeed from 2ndary tubes & is MORE APT TO OVERFIRE. how tall is your chimney


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## Shari (Oct 13, 2010)

The 'white' you are seeing is evidence of an over fired stove (running too hot!).  Problems with over firing include but are not limited to seams on the stove failing with the internal fire spilling out inside your home.

As others have said:  Dump the stove before it takes down your house and your family with it.

Since you are fairly new to hearth.com please do not consider members here snobs or anything by saying 'dump the stove'.  There are wise wood burners here who strive for safe use and safe burning of wood stoves.

Replacing your stove may take some $$ but your safety and the safety of your family are paramount.

Again:  Dump the stove a.s.a.p.

Shari


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## firefighterjake (Oct 13, 2010)

Over-heated stove . . .


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## Battenkiller (Oct 13, 2010)

We've seen so many photos of those two-toned stoves, and I think the consensus is that it is the crappy paint that is the primary culprit, likely decomposing at the unsafe stove temps that are unavoidable with that type of non-airtight stove.  It's a terrible stove, and I think you would be much happier (and probably safer) by selling that one and getting an EPA-rated stove.  You'll get a 30% tax credit on an EPA stove, and you will get a lot more bang for your buck wood-wise as well.


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## vvvv (Oct 13, 2010)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

> We've seen so many photos of those two-toned stoves, and I think the consensus is that it is the crappy paint that is the primary culprit, likely decomposing at the unsafe stove temps that are unavoidable with that type of non-airtight stove.  It's a terrible stove, and I think you would be much happier (and probably safer) by selling that one and getting an EPA-rated stove.  You'll get a 30% tax credit on an EPA stove, and you will get a lot more bang for your buck wood-wise as well.


sorry but EPA stove is less airtight


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## jeff_t (Oct 13, 2010)

EPA stove let air into the firebox where it is supposed to go, to support complete combustion. Overfire is possible with any woodburning appliance, but when you start with a bunch of leaks, you've already half lost the battle.


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## Jags (Oct 13, 2010)

~*~vvv~*~ said:
			
		

> sorry but EPA stove is less airtight



Pook the air leaks that you speak of from the reburner tubes are in direct correlation to the amount of draft the stove is getting.  The air you speak of is by design.

But with the death box the air leaks are just that.  Leaks. No science in the design.


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## branchburner (Oct 13, 2010)

Leaks by design are still leaks, as Pook says. The OP needs a stove that can be controlled - EPA approval not required. The secondary air in my EPA stove allows for little control. With bypass damper open, my EPA stove will overfire much more quickly than my father's non-EPA '75 VC Defiant.


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## Todd (Oct 13, 2010)

I don't even think those boxwood stoves are UL listed and you would have a hard time finding an insurance company approve an install. If something did happen the insurance company may not pay up.


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## Shari (Oct 13, 2010)

branchburner said:
			
		

> Leaks by design are still leaks, as Pook says. The OP needs a stove that can be controlled - *EPA approval not required*. The secondary air in my EPA stove allows for little control. With bypass damper open, my EPA stove will overfire much more quickly than my father's non-EPA '75 VC Defiant.



EPA rated and UL listed are both code requirements by our city inspectors and our homeowners insurance.  My Oslo meets both requirements.

Shari


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## Jags (Oct 13, 2010)

branchburner said:
			
		

> Leaks by design are still leaks, as Pook says. The OP needs a stove that can be controlled - *EPA approval not required.*



Unless you are familiar with the local install codes, I wouldn't bet on that.  Some do - some don't.


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## vvvv (Oct 13, 2010)

http://www.vogelzang.com/browse.cfm/standard-boxwood-stove/4,13.html    clearances are listed


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## Battenkiller (Oct 13, 2010)

~*~vvv~*~ said:
			
		

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No, Pook, you are wrong.  In fact, they are so _not_-airtight that the EPA considers them to be in a separate class (minimum burn rate >5 kg/hour) and are, therefore, exempt.


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## begreen (Oct 13, 2010)

~*~vvv~*~ said:
			
		

> cheap paint, if the stove doesnt warp or u cant see fire thru the seams its fine,



This is more than cheap paint. The stove overfires very easily due to its crude air regulation and lack of interior burnplates. Turn out the lights when the stove is burning hot. If it is glowing red, those sides are over 900 degrees and overfiring. Repeated overfires with these cheap castings will eventually lead to failure. When and how is hard to know. Hopefully this stove is in a cement block house on a concrete floor with no combustibles within at least 3ft. The stove is just at likely to crack at some point as warp. If the stove suddenly cracks during the night... ? 

Putting a key damper and a thermometer on the flue pipe or stove top is a good idea so that you can regulated the stove better and know what temp it is burning at.


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## vvvv (Oct 13, 2010)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

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so the 2ndary air intake doesnt result as a hole into the stove?


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## Jags (Oct 13, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Putting a key damper...



They come with the stove BG.  It appears that there design is so bad it REQUIRES one. :long:


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## branchburner (Oct 13, 2010)

Two different discussions going on here. Various codes *may or may not require* EPA-approved stoves. But the EPA *does require* stoves to be leaky. So EPA approval is not required for a stove to have air supply that can be controlled.


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## begreen (Oct 13, 2010)

~*~vvv~*~ said:
			
		

> sorry but EPA stove is less airtight



Technically, that could be correct if it weren't for the crude fitting castings and basic design. I'm curious, have you owned this stove? Do you know how tightly it can or can't be regulated even with the air control closed?


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## Jags (Oct 13, 2010)

branchburner said:
			
		

> But the EPA *does require* stoves to be leaky.



True - but the difference is the "regulated" (i.e. EPA) leaky part.


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## vvvv (Oct 13, 2010)

Jags said:
			
		

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LOL! wonder why key dampers have to be added to EPA stoves?


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## branchburner (Oct 13, 2010)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

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I believe your stove (as designed) is more airtight than any EPA-approved stove, correct?


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## vvvv (Oct 13, 2010)

branchburner said:
			
		

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I believe the kids read the manual & then preach= religion not science


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## Jags (Oct 13, 2010)

~*~vvv~*~ said:
			
		

> LOL! wonder why key dampers have to be added to EPA stoves?



Only in rare instances where *pipe exceeds recommended length,* causing excess draft that the stove was not designed for.


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## vvvv (Oct 13, 2010)

Jags said:
			
		

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http://www.gulland.ca/florida_bungalow_syndrome.htm


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## Jags (Oct 13, 2010)

~*~vvv~*~ said:
			
		

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Thank you for backing my statement.


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## vvvv (Oct 13, 2010)

Jags said:
			
		

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whats the nature of air buoyancy?


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## Battenkiller (Oct 13, 2010)

~*~vvv~*~ said:
			
		

> so the 2ndary air intake doesnt result as a hole into the stove?



Of course, but that has nothing to do with the matter.  You are able to control the burn rate below 5 kg/hr with an EPA stove and you can't with the Vogelzang.  A minimum of 5 kg/hour coupled with extremely thin cast sides (stove only weighs a buck and a quarter!) are a recipe for extremely high surface temps.  I've burned in sheet metal stoves, and a good fire will get them to char wood at 3 feet.  These stoves are practically sheet metal in thickness, but made of much more fragile cast iron (of dubious quality, I'm sure).  As BG says, they will likely crack before they warp.  Then what?


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## oldspark (Oct 13, 2010)

Jags said:
			
		

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 Looks like it might not be that rare, correct?


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## Jags (Oct 13, 2010)

oldspark said:
			
		

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Its not "hens teeth" rare, but is not a real common issue brought up on this board.  Now, boxwood stove turning the paint white, overheating, and being uncontrollable.  Real high percentage :lol: .


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## Jotulf3cb (Oct 13, 2010)

ummmm really crappy stove ..... UNSAFE replace it!


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## oldspark (Oct 13, 2010)

Jags said:
			
		

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 Quite frankly being gone for my job and having the wife have a problem with a fire running away from her scares the crap out of me, she ran the old stove with no problem but that stove was easy to run.


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## vvvv (Oct 13, 2010)

Jags said:
			
		

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did u read the link? Gulland resorted to blocking the 2ndary air hole. WHY?


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## Jags (Oct 13, 2010)

oldspark said:
			
		

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The summit is a pretty reputable stove.  Rest easy, she will get the hang of it.

But I digress to the OP.  If your plans are to be a wood burner, you may want to look into a more reputable stove.  For the safety and comfort of your family, and for the reduced fuel consumption and for the environment (particulate emissions).  Just my opinion.


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## begreen (Oct 13, 2010)

Pook, you sayyou don't take JG as gospel, but keep quoting him. Gulland lists that as one of the "options" for a problem situation of too strong draft.

This thread is off on theoretical tangents and not really helping the OP. Please get back on topic or it will have to be closed.


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## branchburner (Oct 13, 2010)

Jags said:
			
		

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VC Everburn = overfire by "regulated" design

Today's glowing-overfired-stove threads:
non-EPA, 1    vs.    EPA, 1
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/60673/


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## Battenkiller (Oct 13, 2010)

oldspark said:
			
		

> Looks like it might not be that rare, correct?



That's why I get a little freaked when newbies come on here with stove problems and somebody tells them to fill it up with pallet wood or kiln-dried lumber.  Not a very good idea in a system that may have excessive draft.

For the record, while draft does increase with increasing chimney height, it is far from a linear increase.  Going from the EPA test flue to a 25' tall flue shouldn't cause a stove to overfire all by itself.  The EPA test flues use induced draft, and I have no idea what the test pressure is set at, but a 25' tall 6" flue with a 200ºF average flue gas temperature differential should draw about .1 inches of water.  That is a figure I see often in the literature as an ideal draft.  Get those flue gases up to a 400º average and you are drawing .16 inches with the same flue - maybe enough to cause a serious overfire.


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## SKIN052 (Oct 13, 2010)

I am in the same boat old spark. Scared scared to death the wife is going to over fire the stove or create tons of creosote. I was working on the garage a few days ago and noticed tons of smoke pouring out the chimney. I get down off the ladder and go in to find a huge birch junk sitting on top of a few coals, air set on low. This is the reason I willl be cleaning the chimney EVERY month this season. Just to be safe.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 13, 2010)

The OP has a Kent Logfire insert that I would imagine is the prime mover for heating the house.


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## Battenkiller (Oct 13, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Pook, you sayyou don't take JG as gospel, but keep quoting him. Gulland lists that as one of the "options" for a problem situation of too strong draft.
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> This thread is off on theoretical tangents and not really helping the OP. Please get back on topic or it will have to be closed.



Sorry, please don't close the thread because I added some more "theory".  Just trying to explain why we all think these stoves are dangerous, especially to a newbie.


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## oldspark (Oct 13, 2010)

Looking back through the threads I think more info from the OP would be of help, what type of wood is he useing and any temp sensors on the flue and how hard is he running the stove?


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## begreen (Oct 13, 2010)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> The OP has a Kent Logfire insert that I would imagine is the prime mover for heating the house.



I saw that and wondered where the VG box was being used. Maybe not even in the house?


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## Battenkiller (Oct 13, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Putting a key damper and a thermometer on the flue pipe or stove top is a good idea so that you can regulated the stove better and know what temp it is burning at.



BG, I think part of the problem is the damper that is in the collar of those stoves.  Before a key damper has a chance to slow down the fire, it will dramatically increase the temperature inside the firebox because all of the heat can't escape up the flue.  With a thin-walled stove like these are, that can cause a nearly instantaneous rise in stove surface temps right by the flue collar.  That where most of the ones I've seen are always white.


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## vvvv (Oct 13, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Pook, you sayyou don't take JG as gospel, but keep quoting him. Gulland lists that as one of the "options" for a problem situation of too strong draft.
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> This thread is off on theoretical tangents and not really helping the OP. Please get back on topic or it will have to be closed.


bottom line= how does a stove [EPA] that has 2" hole feeding the firebox gonna be more airtight that one that doesnt? put a keydamper on it makes sense, replacing it with EPA stove doesnt. OP may have money issues also?


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## begreen (Oct 13, 2010)

2" hole feeding secondaries? What stove? On the one JG showed, that is for secondary and primary. When normally closed all the way that air control is only about 1/8 open. Just enough to keep the secondaries fed. He also showed allowing this port to be closed off more is one of four effective options.

As for the OP, I have no idea why or where they are using the stove, and not suggesting they replace it. Just that they know what they are burning are very careful with clearances and regulation of the stove.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 13, 2010)

A key damper isn't an issue. The VZ Boxwood stove comes with one built in.


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## jeff_t (Oct 13, 2010)

For occasional use, these thing are probably ok. I would not leave one unattended, definitely couldn't sleep with an active fire burning. In 17 years fighting fires with a fairly busy, mostly rural fire department, I have seen one house burned to the ground where a stove similar to this was likely the cause. Probably not just the stove, more likely the installation. As cheap as these things are, and given the economic situation, I'm a bit surprised I haven't seen more. But I suppose most who have them can't get them hot enough, with wood they cut yesterday, to cause much of a problem.


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## itsanaddiction (Oct 13, 2010)

You all don't know how helpful you've been. This stove belongs to my brother in law. Not being a stove expert in any way I needed to run the situation past those who I consider my "experts". I knew posting here would bring out the truth about the stove. I was a little frightened right away when he asked my opinion on why the metal turned white on his new stove. I was sure it had been overfired, but didn't know how to advise him. My guess is the stove will go back to where it was purchased. 

Thank you, maybe we avoided a major disaster!


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## Jags (Oct 13, 2010)

Truth be known we are all just a bunch of char heads. ;-P 

There are a few pro's here, but mostly just a bunch of folks trying to help other folks do it safe and sound. I hope this thread wasn't TOO over the top.  It is a thread that has been repeated a few times and can get heavily debated.


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## yanksforever (Oct 13, 2010)

Dump it and get a new EPA stove and please don't buy a used Smoke Dragon...your family is too precious!


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## vvvv (Oct 13, 2010)

what gets me is that with all the posts about overfired stoves, VZ are the only ones that turn white?


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## begreen (Oct 13, 2010)

It's not. We see many other stoves this way too. Scandias, Jotuls, Fishers, etc. have all been pictured on this site with nice white sides or tops.


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## Jags (Oct 13, 2010)

Well Pook, I do think you are on to something with the cheap paint job, but Volgs aren't the only ones.

Here is one that was posted on our very own hearth-dot-com.


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## vvvv (Oct 13, 2010)

good fire in stove in the dark & cant see the flame within= ok 2me, duh, didnt know cast iron stoves were welded!


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## begreen (Oct 13, 2010)

Right, don't give a hoot about welds popping in the middle of the night or smoke from stack.

 Genius, perhaps start your own website for dragon-fires, duh.


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