# interesting read....wood chips powering military base 24/7



## Ricky8443 (Nov 25, 2014)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...b2c34a-7334-11e4-95a8-fe0b46e8751a_story.html


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## Spletz (Nov 25, 2014)

Very cool!  Thanks for sharing it. I hope it becomes a trend.  Once the military adapts such measures, technologies approve.


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## Jags (Nov 25, 2014)

Spletz said:


> technologies approve.



Is that with a nod or the clapping of particles?


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## Spletz (Nov 25, 2014)

Jags said:


> Is that with a nod or the clapping of particles?


Ha!  That was meant to be improve.


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## Ricky8443 (Nov 25, 2014)

I'm sure Fort Drum read through all of the Hearth.com posts before undergoing this operation.


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## Dieselhead (Nov 25, 2014)

Heres a school in CT that does the same:

http://www.centerbrook.com/project/hotchkiss_school_biomass_heating_facility


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## TX-L (Nov 26, 2014)

Another point of view regarding this:

http://climate-connections.org/2014...-fort-drum-biomass-plant-for-lumber-shortage/


And another:

http://www.wwnytv.com/news/local/Feedback-Firewood-Shortage-In-North-Country-277659601.html


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## firefighterjake (Nov 27, 2014)

Dieselhead said:


> Heres a school in CT that does the same:
> 
> http://www.centerbrook.com/project/hotchkiss_school_biomass_heating_facility



Local school here also heats with wood chips in a biomass boiler.


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## Batman (Nov 27, 2014)

Increased demand for wood chips is squeezing the firewood supply around here.


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## begreen (Nov 27, 2014)

Seattle's downtown steam plant has been wood chip fired for a couple years now.


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## woodgeek (Nov 27, 2014)

The intertubes say biomass provides 1.4% of US electrical energy....until its recent dethroning by wind, it was #2 for RE since the 80s.


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## peakbagger (Nov 28, 2014)

What made the project was that there was an existing district heating system in place to supply heat to the facility and a most of the infrastructure in place to burn biomass. So most of the big money was spent in the past and all the project did was modify the boiler from coal to wood.  The state capital complex in Montpelier VT has had a wood fired district heating system and recently has expanded to supply the downtown area of Montpelier.


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## Harman p-68a (Nov 28, 2014)

I live less than 10 miles from Fort Drum and try and get some Firewood around here now Better bring your checkbook. . It has also affected the pellets supply and price . So as some of us locals say just another benefit of having the base around ..


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## SidecarFlip (Dec 1, 2014)

Interesting read.  We too employ a biomass boiler similar to the one in my Avitar to provide low pressure wet steam for our industrial manifacturing operation and keep the municipal tree crews in Toledo, Ohio and South East Michigan out of landfills and dumping at our facility.

It's a Hurst Biomass Scotchback firetube boiler btw, 250 horsepower.  www.hurstboiler.com Basically no stack emissions with the on site bag house and it's stratified gasification.  You can smell the wood burning but you can't see where, it burns that clean.  Completely computer controlled.


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## Bret Chase (Dec 4, 2014)

firefighterjake said:


> Local school here also heats with wood chips in a biomass boiler.



 Lake Region High School in Bridgton heats with pellets...


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## Bret Chase (Dec 4, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> The intertubes say biomass provides 1.4% of US electrical energy....until its recent dethroning by wind, it was #2 for RE since the 80s.



 In Northern New England, we've got 12 biomass plants in ME and 6 in NH... A couple of them are 50MW class plants.

They burn an astonishing amount of what is basically garbage... ground up stumps, etc all of it green.

I haven't been able to quickly find a % of generation... but it's quite a bit more than 1.4% I'd say


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## woodgeek (Dec 4, 2014)

on the local grid I'm sure it would be more than 1.4% of generation.  That figure was for the whole US.


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## SidecarFlip (Dec 4, 2014)

I can see taxing entities heating with pellets in biomass boilers because there is really no monetray concern with spending tax derivived funds (pellets are a very inefficient means of heating cost wise on a large scale).  Wood chips and landfill biomass are much more economical but tax supported entities don't give a hoot...it's not their money, it's yours.

If we ran our biomass boiler on processed pellets it would be instantly a profit eater.  landfill fodder isn't, at all.


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## peakbagger (Dec 4, 2014)

I work with several of the large biomass power generating plants in the region . The only reason they are still running are the incentives for renewables. They typical size is normally smaller in the 20 to 30 MW range as they need to run off fuel from close by the plant. Once the fuel has to be trucked much more than 50 miles, the heating value of the diesel used to move it exceeds the heating value of the wood. Of course the incentives don't care so there are times when the larger plants are indirectly fueled by diesel.


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## SidecarFlip (Dec 4, 2014)

peakbagger said:


> I work with several of the large biomass power generating plants in the region . The only reason they are still running are the incentives for renewables. They typical size is normally smaller in the 20 to 30 MW range as they need to run off fuel from close by the plant. Once the fuel has to be trucked much more than 50 miles, the heating value of the diesel used to move it exceeds the heating value of the wood. Of course the incentives don't care so there are times when the larger plants are indirectly fueled by diesel.


 

Exactly correct.  But then it's a 'green inititative' thing or a 'feel good' thing.  Besides, subsidized is taxpayer money and the government shows no fiscal responsibility with money thats not their's.......

Just like corn alcohol for gasoline additive.  E-Plants cannot survive without being subsidized by the government and/or tax incentives.  Neither E-plants not biofuel electrical generation or heating schools and businesses is economically practical from a net neutral aspect.  They all rely on government money or tax breaks to survive.  People need to wake up and smell the roses...porobably won't, after all, it's 'green'.  Just ask Al Gore.....


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## Grisu (Dec 4, 2014)

peakbagger said:


> I work with several of the large biomass power generating plants in the region . The only reason they are still running are the incentives for renewables. They typical size is normally smaller in the 20 to 30 MW range as they need to run off fuel from close by the plant. Once the fuel has to be trucked much more than 50 miles, the heating value of the diesel used to move it exceeds the heating value of the wood. Of course the incentives don't care so there are times when the larger plants are indirectly fueled by diesel.



How did you make those calculations? Let's say a truck transports 5 ton of woodchips. That's 10,000 lb. At 7000 usable BTU per pound I get 70 million BTU. 1 gallon of diesel has 140,000 BTU. That would mean the truck would need more than 500 gallons of diesel to drive the chips around. I guess that truck would need to travel a LOT more than 50 miles to exceed the BTU in the chips.


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## SidecarFlip (Dec 4, 2014)

There is more to a truck than just diesel fuel.  Drivers wages, cost of purchasing the truck and/or trailer, road use tax, permits,upkeep like tires and oil, Federal excise tax, but then you just  put gas in your car and drive it with no upkeep...right?

Greenies live in glass houses......


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## Grisu (Dec 4, 2014)

And oil needs to be explored, drilled, piped, shipped, refined, trucked around including permits, taxes, spill clean-up cost etc. So how different is it really? And a good part of that money goes abroad. 

Woodchips do at least provide income to American workers. And wood actually grows on trees, unlike oil.


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## SidecarFlip (Dec 5, 2014)

Grisu said:


> And oil needs to be explored, drilled, piped, shipped, refined, trucked around including permits, taxes, spill clean-up cost etc. So how different is it really? And a good part of that money goes abroad.
> 
> Woodchips do at least provide income to American workers. And wood actually grows on trees, unlike oil.


 

Wrong, oil did grow (from) trees, millions of years ago.  Far as a good part of the money goes abroad statement, thats becoming less and less as time goes on and as we become a net exporter instead of a net importer.

Tell you want I know...  If we didn't get free biomass (wood chips) to run out plant boiler (pictured in my avitar), we'd shut it down and have in the past and ran NG.  The only way it's a profit maker is when the fuel is free.  When we can't get it, it's cold as the winter.  And that don't include the million five startup and construction cost either.  Thats just day-to day operation.

Biomass boilers aren't viable unless the fuel source is free or almost free.  You can think they are and the gummit will tell you they are but they aren't (unless of course you don't pay the tarrif and have the taxpayers paying it), then, they are the best thing since sliced bread.

Woodchips might provide income for American workers but, there are a helluva lot more American workers working in refineries and oil fields than workers processing wood chips....  Be real.


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## begreen (Dec 5, 2014)

SidecarFlip said:


> Exactly correct.  But then it's a 'green inititative' thing or a 'feel good' thing.  Besides, subsidized is taxpayer money and the government shows no fiscal responsibility with money thats not their's.......
> 
> Just like corn alcohol for gasoline additive.  E-Plants cannot survive without being subsidized by the government and/or tax incentives.  Neither E-plants not biofuel electrical generation or heating schools and businesses is economically practical from a net neutral aspect.  They all rely on government money or tax breaks to survive.  People need to wake up and smell the roses...porobably won't, after all, it's 'green'.  Just ask Al Gore.....


Not that I am a fan of corn based ethanol it is not a very green source of energy,  but likewise big oil has been deeply subsidized for a long time too. Just ask Rex Tillerson.


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## SidecarFlip (Dec 5, 2014)

Candidly, I don't know who Rex Tillerson is and I don't care.  What I do know is a subsidy, any subsidy paid by the government is yours (and my) tax dollars being used  poorly, whether it's big oil, ethanol or wood chips., solar or wind power, makes no difference.  When everything and everyone is on entitlement (thats what a subsidy is....entitlement), at some point there won't be anything left, but rest assured, your governmant will just extract more taxes to cove the deficit.

Frankly, I'm not about 'green' anything.  Green equals deficit in my book.  Far as having a bio-fuel stove, I do that because it's cheaper than ptopane.  If I had NG, I wouldn't have a stove at all..  However, I'd still make parts and sell them to all you 'greenies'.  I like making money, I'm a capitalist......


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## SidecarFlip (Dec 5, 2014)

Never heard of him.  But thern I never heard of Barak Obama prior to his election.....


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## woodgeek (Dec 5, 2014)

SidecarFlip said:


> Frankly, I'm not about 'green' anything.  Green equals deficit in my book.  Far as having a bio-fuel stove, I do that because it's cheaper than ptopane.  If I had NG, I wouldn't have a stove at all..  However, I'd still make parts and sell them to all you 'greenies'.  I like making money, I'm a capitalist......



Stick around, the green capitalists are coming.  And energy in the future will be cheap.


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## SidecarFlip (Dec 5, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> Stick around, the green capitalists are coming.  And energy in the future will be cheap.


 

I'm 65 so I don't have much time to wait....


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## BrotherBart (Dec 5, 2014)

Rex better get my dividend check here by the 10th. And the retirement check here by the 25th.


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## SidecarFlip (Dec 5, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> Rex better get my dividend check here by the 10th. And the retirement check here by the 25th.


 

Retirement....  Thats why I'm still working.  Too many toys, not enough retirement funds.


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## BrotherBart (Dec 5, 2014)

Two smart investments allowed me to retire early. Exxon stock and birth control pills.


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## SidecarFlip (Dec 5, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> Two smart investments allowed me to retire early. Exxon stock and birth control pills.


 

Neither are very 'green'......

I won the lotto and invested it.  Problem is, my wife wants me outta the house.  At least she let me blow a wad on a laser cutter....


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## TMonter (Dec 6, 2014)

Grisu said:


> How did you make those calculations? Let's say a truck transports 5 ton of woodchips. That's 10,000 lb. At 7000 usable BTU per pound I get 70 million BTU. 1 gallon of diesel has 140,000 BTU. That would mean the truck would need more than 500 gallons of diesel to drive the chips around. I guess that truck would need to travel a LOT more than 50 miles to exceed the BTU in the chips.



Average chip truck is 25 tons and average distance traveled for most projects to the delivery point is less than 50 miles. If you assume an average MPG on a fully loaded wood chip truck of 3-5 MPG fully loaded and double  that empty, the delivered BTU is significantly more than the energy expended for delivery. Average BTU for delivered wood chips at 40-45% moisture is 5300 Btu/lb or 10.6 million Btu/Ton.


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## TMonter (Dec 6, 2014)

SidecarFlip said:


> Wrong, oil did grow (from) trees, millions of years ago.  Far as a good part of the money goes abroad statement, thats becoming less and less as time goes on and as we become a net exporter instead of a net importer.
> 
> Tell you want I know...  If we didn't get free biomass (wood chips) to run out plant boiler (pictured in my avitar), we'd shut it down and have in the past and ran NG.  The only way it's a profit maker is when the fuel is free.  When we can't get it, it's cold as the winter.  And that don't include the million five startup and construction cost either.  Thats just day-to day operation.
> 
> ...



Actually biomass boilers are generally viable when the primary fuel for boilers (usually natural gas or oil) exceed the cost of wood chips by a 1.5 or 2:1 margin depending on the assumed payback period (usually 7-12 years).


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## Ncountry (Dec 7, 2014)

Harman p-68a said:


> I live less than 10 miles from Fort Drum and try and get some Firewood around here now Better bring your checkbook. . It has also affected the pellets supply and price . So as some of us locals say just another benefit of having the base around ..




 The local logger/pellet/chip producer has their plant running at its 100,000 ton capacity as well as supplying 70,000 tons to the plant on Drum. If one is a fan of forests they should never look at what is left when the 

leave a job.


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 7, 2014)

Must be some type of closed system gassification boiler if they are mixing old tires with the wood chips. This type of thing is limited to the amount of waste wood available. Possible recycled newspaper and cardboard could also be used.


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 7, 2014)

Since the Govt is the largest user of  fuel it makes sense for them to develop alternatives to imported oil ond other fuels. As a matter of national security and also economic security.


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## begreen (Dec 9, 2014)

Looks like they are going to have to change their signs now to "Loose chips, sink ships."


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## Jags (Dec 9, 2014)

Semper Fri.


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## Retired Guy (Dec 28, 2014)

One issue with the Fort Drum biofuel program is the shortage of firewood in the neighboring counties.


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