# My Garn Barn....



## Tattooz (Nov 9, 2008)




----------



## Tattooz (Nov 9, 2008)




----------



## Tattooz (Nov 9, 2008)

We joke its only good for one thing not hooked up........


----------



## trehugr (Nov 9, 2008)

Thats misspelled, it should be Lobstah Cookah. 

Nice, where in Maine?


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 9, 2008)

Trehugr....

You are right..! I am out in Freeport Durham area.....


----------



## Sawyer (Nov 10, 2008)

Looks Good! Wish I were that far.

Alergic to Lobstah but a good fish boil would work for me ;-)

Are you going with a horizontal chimney?


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 10, 2008)

Sawyer said:
			
		

> Looks Good! Wish I were that far.
> 
> Alergic to Lobstah but a good fish boil would work for me ;-)
> 
> Are you going with a horizontal chimney?



Yup, I should have it all together by weeks end...... I will post up photos as it goes....


----------



## barnartist (Nov 10, 2008)

It's ovah... Cramah...lobstah...


----------



## Rick Stanley (Nov 10, 2008)

Looking good!! All new construction,too. It's gonna be a sweet set-up when you're done. So, what are you going with for a chimney? All stainless?


----------



## dolmen (Nov 10, 2008)

Looking good, we need loads of pics ... not really enough about these units, even on the web!  When I find my wee place in the USA I'd be so tempted to have one of these.

Cheers

;-)


----------



## Rick Stanley (Nov 10, 2008)

ricks said:
			
		

> Looking good!! All new construction,too. It's gonna be a sweet set-up when you're done. So, what are you going with for a chimney? All stainless?



Oh, um, I see that I had a brain cramp. It says H O R I Z O N T O L. Sorry. Dumb question.


----------



## Jim K in PA (Nov 10, 2008)

Looks good.  Are you going to install gypsum board around it?


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 10, 2008)

Stack straight out the back.........  

Yes fire code 1 hour board around the entire garn room then filled with vermiculite SP

As soon as something else happens    i promise to post photos.


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 17, 2008)

And so it begins......


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 17, 2008)




----------



## Tattooz (Nov 17, 2008)




----------



## Tattooz (Nov 17, 2008)




----------



## Sawyer (Nov 18, 2008)

Looking good, wish I were that far! Tomorrow I will saw the lumber for the Garn enclosure. Parts will be ordered shortly. Maybe by watching you and Jim I will avoid a few mistakes. Thanks for posting.


----------



## Jim K in PA (Nov 18, 2008)

Tat - looks like you have a good start.  But I have to ask - is that teflon tape on the pipe joints?  I strongly suggest going with a liquid sealant like Rectorseal 5 or Blue Blocker (both available at Lowes/HD).  Teflon tape can tear in the threads as you tighten, and can leave areas of thread without sealant.  It may not be an issue, but it's a hell of a thing to find out later with hundreds of gallons in the tank if it is an issue.

Keep the pics coming.  I added more to my site: http://www.pennbrookfarm.com/GARN/GARN6.html

My Garn Barn is almost done, but I still don't have the GARN connected to the HX yet.  Very frustrating getting parts & fittings for 1.25 Wirsbo.


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 18, 2008)

Jim,
Thanks I am going to ask him about that tomorrow......
Your's looks great, where did you get the elec. elements they sent mine through with the set up for them..?


----------



## Jim K in PA (Nov 19, 2008)

Tattooz said:
			
		

> Jim,
> Thanks I am going to ask him about that tomorrow......
> Your's looks great, where did you get the elec. elements they sent mine through with the set up for them..?



Aha, I guess you have a plumber doing the install?  I am doing mine.  Some plumbers do not like the liquid stuff because it is messy.  As long as the plumber stands behind his work if there are leaks, I guess he is free to use whatever sealant he chooses.

The electric elements are from my local plumbing supply house, but you can get them anywhere.  I got 4.5kw elements, not the 5.5kw elements that Dectra sells.  Mine are Ruud brand, copper element.  Be sure to use some lubricant like dielectric grease on the O-rings.  It will help keep them from distorting when you tighten them.  I learned that the hard way.

I forgot to mention it on my web page, but the enclosure obviously did not come with the holes.  I laid out the 9x9 grid and cut them with a hole saw.


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 19, 2008)

Phase one done.....
Now the boiler end in the  house, then the barn


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 19, 2008)




----------



## Tattooz (Nov 19, 2008)




----------



## Rick Stanley (Nov 19, 2008)

WOW Things are really moving now. Looks great


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 19, 2008)

Hey Rick,
Email me your address and I will ship the crimpers


----------



## Birdman 22 (Nov 19, 2008)

Looks Great, I have a GARN 2000 heating two homes. I fire the unit twice a day, 0500 and 1700 adding one load after the intial load. Works great. There are some tricks to it (load the wood toward the back of the fire box and don't burn to much small wood at once you will get puffing). I made my own pipe as suggested by GARN which saved a ton of money $3.50 per foot total (1 1/4" pex 1" solid insulation and ABS pipe) works great. Also had trouble finding 1 1/4 fitting had to purchase a WATT crimping tool. $$$$


----------



## brad068 (Nov 20, 2008)

Tat,

 Are you supplying off the top and returning in to the bottom of the Garn? And on your loop farthest away from the Garn, are you sucking from the plate heater?


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 20, 2008)

Hey Garn..
1) Yes supply from top Return to Bottom.
2) I am at a stand still right now.... We are having some varied opions about pump placement. Tomorrow AM is the big Pow wow with all the right people. will have a much better Idea tomorrow night.
P.S. Take a look at my photo... Pumps to High...?


----------



## brad068 (Nov 20, 2008)

Tattooz said:
			
		

> Hey Garn..
> 1) Yes supply from top Return to Bottom.
> 2) I am at a stand still right now.... We are having some varied opions about pump placement. Tomorrow AM is the big Pow wow with all the right people. will have a much better Idea tomorrow night.
> P.S. Take a look at my photo... Pumps to High...?



Well, I hope Heaterman chimes in on this cause we discussed this awhile ago about where to supply/return. Mine is set up sucking off bottom and returning to the top. He agreed with me and that is what a old manual of a garn said, but I was wondering if that is right. I notice that when my unit is not under load that my temp gauges split about 10*F from top to bottom. I'm afraid that if it went the other way the spread would be much greater and I might possibly boil over sooner when firing.

I don't know about sucking through the plate hx and a Y-strainer is the best setup. I think I would want to push to the hx and strainer where the water is colder-Is that loop closed? I guess that would define where the pumps goes too.


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 20, 2008)

From the conversation I had today, we are going to set up to push to the exchanger in the house.

Any help will be greatly appreciated...


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 20, 2008)

From the conversation I had today, we are going to set up to push to the exchanger in the house. 

Any help will be greatly appreciated...


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 20, 2008)

This looks more like it....


----------



## Sawyer (Nov 20, 2008)

I am glad you and Jim K are posting your installations along with your questions. The information you are providing as well as gathering is helping me immensely. Garnification brought up some good questions for thought. I will be posting my plan soon. What software are you using for your schematic? I just have a simple line drawing program.


----------



## Donl (Nov 20, 2008)

HX should be connected counterflow as opposed to concurent flow for better heat txfr.


----------



## Birdman 22 (Nov 20, 2008)

Hello, The hx placement I found to be the easiest and most efficeant is to pipe the return of your exsiting boiler counter flow through a hx. If you have a fin tube system there is no need for a extra pump and you don't have to put a close loop in. I don't have schematic but will make one and post in a few day. Pipe losses are important, if you have a standard fin tube system Place you pump in you GARN barn, through a y strainer and check valve, to the home with a hx plumbed into the return line of you boiler. Very little line losses, very efficent. Also if the GARN is located at a height great enough above the exisiting heating system you may not have to put a hx in, just convert to an open system. Hope this helps


----------



## BrownianHeatingTech (Nov 20, 2008)

Don L said:
			
		

> HX should be connected counterflow as opposed to concurent flow for better heat txfr.



It is counterflow, in that diagram... (the colors used just make it less obvious, I think, but the pumps point the right ways)

Joe


----------



## Jim K in PA (Nov 20, 2008)

Tat - I think the pump on the GARN may be too high.  I have mine mounted equivalent to about a foot above the bottom of the GARN, but pulling water from the upper bung.  That is the way GARN/Dectra is now instructing owners to install the pump.  Depending on your pump size and flow rate, you may be OK with respect to cavitation or suction boiling.  What is your elevation?

I'll have some updated pics of my P/S loop posted next week.  I am pulling water for the secondary house loop about a foot from the Tee on the primary.  I am pushing my water ~125' to the HX where the strainer is mounted in the basement about 5 feet from the oil furnace.  The furnace circulator will push water through the return leg and into the HX, counter flow to the GARN water.  Pretty standard stuff, AFAIK.

Data:  I am using a Grundfos UPS 43-44FC three speed on the primary.  It is a low head, high flow pump.  It will give me more than the 14GPM I'll need for all three secondary loads, and keep the return water warm.  Based on the pump curve and my calculated head loss, I don't expect to need to run it faster than the lowest speed setting.

I am using a Grundfos UPS 26-99FC three speed on the house secondary.  I have a lot more head loss due to pipe length, fittings, and the 20 plate HX.  However, I still only expect to use it on low speed.

The second and third loops will be using a more typical Grundfos 15-58 on each loop.

I just hope the tech that helped me pick the 20 plate HX was right.


----------



## Sawyer (Nov 20, 2008)

BrownianHeatingTech said:
			
		

> Don L said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Boy, am I glad I read your post twice as I was focusing on the color rather than the direction arrow within the pump symbol. The installation is now clear.

Thanks Joe!


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 20, 2008)

Thanks for all the input. Yes my pumps in the photo are to high... we are addressing this, and I will have an update when the changes have been made. The pump for the house WILL be on the floor in the Garn Barn.


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 22, 2008)

OK Pumps have been moved much lower....


----------



## TCaldwell (Nov 23, 2008)

tat. that looks much better with those modifications,do you still have room to insulate them after a test fire


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 23, 2008)

Hi Tom, Yes they will all be wrapped......


----------



## Sawyer (Nov 23, 2008)

tat, is that a manufactured bracket on the HX? Looks like it's a solid mounting.


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 23, 2008)

Nothing to fancy....


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 23, 2008)




----------



## Tattooz (Nov 23, 2008)

I hate to jump ahead but..........
Here is the Monster waiting to go to work...


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 23, 2008)




----------



## Tattooz (Nov 23, 2008)




----------



## Tattooz (Nov 23, 2008)

OK the boiler and my 105 gal. solar hot water tank....
Solar hot water first, Wood hot water second and last in line the oil.........
So Close....


----------



## Sawyer (Nov 24, 2008)

Thanks a lot Tat,

I will do the same!


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 25, 2008)

Here we go lots happened today....
Monster in place...


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 25, 2008)

Pex coming into the house....


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 25, 2008)

Garn Barn got closed cell spray in foam insulation


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 25, 2008)

Boiler in the barn is on line..... Sorry pics suck..... not good light in there...


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 25, 2008)

Wednesday I am going to Vacuum out the inside and start the long filling process..... I have crappy wells, the water is good but they are slow. We should fire this thing by the end of next week..... I will have video of the event..... 
Thanks to evryone that I have talked to that has helped ....!


----------



## Rick Stanley (Nov 25, 2008)

No, THANK YOU!! You're making a huge contribution here.


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 25, 2008)

Rick, I will post some better photos tomorrow.....


----------



## Sawyer (Nov 25, 2008)

Like ricks, I am thankful that you and others have posted your questions and installation photos. My other projects are finally coming to an end and I will be able to work on my Garn installation. With the information posted on this site my installation will be much, much, easier ;-)


----------



## Jim K in PA (Nov 25, 2008)

Tat - looks great.  Thanks for sharing the process.

A couple of questions:

How many plates in your "monster" HX?

What is the heat load for the house?

What is the black material you have around the HX?

Thanks again.


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 25, 2008)

Lots more progress, HX is wrapped in an Insulating jacket


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 25, 2008)

Boiler has been broken loose and now will run as a cold start .


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 25, 2008)

another look


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 25, 2008)




----------



## Tattooz (Nov 25, 2008)

Jim, Here is a shot of the sticker from the HX box....... Not sure how many plates...


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 25, 2008)




----------



## Sawyer (Nov 26, 2008)

[quote author="Tattooz" date="1227675044"]Boiler has been broken loose and now will run as a cold start .


I am curious why you changed plans and went to a cold start rather than the supply to the return of the existing boiler? I will have this same situation in my shop as well as the house.


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 26, 2008)

I wanted to separate the two as much as possible. From what I was told . When set up the other way even in stand by your loosing heat to the flu.. This way your wood system is its own entity .


----------



## Sawyer (Nov 26, 2008)

Tattooz said:
			
		

> I wanted to separate the two as much as possible. From what I was told . When set up the other way even in stand by your loosing heat to the flu.. This way your wood system is its own entity .



Thanks Tat, 
This will be a strong consideration for mr also. I intend to heat my domestic hot water year around and "up the flue losses" could waste considerable BTU's over 5 months without needing heat for the house or shop.


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 26, 2008)

I had to set up my burnham the other way, needed to consider the internals drying out.....


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 26, 2008)

Sawyer,
I put in a 60 tube solar system for domestic hot water almost a year ago, state and fed one time renewable energy refunds..... and nice warm water all summer NO boiler..


----------



## Sawyer (Nov 26, 2008)

Tattooz said:
			
		

> I had to set up my burnham the other way, needed to consider the internals drying out.....



I had best check with Weil McClain before I start the installation. Is the Burnham in your shop? What makes the Buderus different?


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 26, 2008)

Burnham is in the barn, From what I get they are infamous for drying out gaskets when they sit idle. The Buderus will cold start with out worry.....


----------



## Sawyer (Nov 26, 2008)

I don't think I could afford a solar setup for hot water after I finish setting up the Garn. It doesnt seem like we get enough sunlight here either.

I am glad you mentioned the gaskets, as I said I will check with Weil McClain and ask before I make the final decision.


----------



## Rick Stanley (Nov 26, 2008)

An option, I've read about on this forum, I think it may have been Eric Johnson that does it..............................is, if you're sure the fossil fuel burner isn't needed, disable it and plug the flue pipe to slow standby loses. Then if you run out of wood or go away or whatever, you can unplug the flue, flip a switch and let the fossil fuel take over.  I think that would work especially well for someone that's around most of the time, like me.  You could burn wood or not burn wood, keep the oil/gas boiler hot and minimize standby loses.


----------



## BrownianHeatingTech (Nov 26, 2008)

ricks said:
			
		

> An option, I've read about on this forum, I think it may have been Eric Johnson that does it..............................is, if you're sure the fossil fuel burner isn't needed, disable it and plug the flue pipe to slow standby loses. Then if you run out of wood or go away or whatever, you can unplug the flue, flip a switch and let the fossil fuel take over.  I think that would work especially well for someone that's around most of the time, like me.  You could burn wood or not burn wood, keep the oil/gas boiler hot and minimize standby loses.



You can also use a motorized damper to open and close the flue automatically.  A signal to start the oil burner triggers the damper to open, and a switch on the damper triggers the burner when the damper fully opens (thereby preventing the potential danger of the burner firing with the damper closed).

Joe


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 26, 2008)




----------



## Sawyer (Nov 26, 2008)

ricks said:
			
		

> An option, I've read about on this forum, I think it may have been Eric Johnson that does it..............................is, if you're sure the fossil fuel burner isn't needed, disable it and plug the flue pipe to slow standby loses. Then if you run out of wood or go away or whatever, you can unplug the flue, flip a switch and let the fossil fuel take over.  I think that would work especially well for someone that's around most of the time, like me.  You could burn wood or not burn wood, keep the oil/gas boiler hot and minimize standby loses.



Makes sense Rick, I am a stay on the woodlot kinda person (some say hermit but not true!) so plugging the flue would not be a problem and then when I go on my once a year mini-trip I could really pull the plug!


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 26, 2008)




----------



## Tattooz (Nov 26, 2008)




----------



## Sawyer (Nov 26, 2008)

BrownianHeatingTech said:
			
		

> ricks said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm not certain Joe, but wouldn't the Weil McClain controller kick out on purge if the flue was plugged?


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 26, 2008)

BrownianHeatingTech said:
			
		

> ricks said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Joe, That sounds pretty slick......


----------



## Rick Stanley (Nov 26, 2008)

Oh Great, I just started to think I had a half a$$ed idea about all of the pipes, and Tat starts throwing wiring photos around  :ahhh:


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 26, 2008)

Just when you think you got a grasp on this project, wiring rears its ugly head.. HA HA HA


----------



## Rick Stanley (Nov 26, 2008)

Yup, you're killing me........................


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 26, 2008)

Tomorrow I am climbing inside the belly of the beast with my shop vac....... When I come out a hose is going in.....!! This FREAKIN project needs to end somewhere.....


----------



## Sawyer (Nov 26, 2008)

Look before you leap, you never know........


----------



## BrownianHeatingTech (Nov 26, 2008)

Sawyer said:
			
		

> I'm not certain Joe, but wouldn't the Weil McClain controller kick out on purge if the flue was plugged?



Depends upon the boiler.  I wouldn't risk it.

Joe


----------



## Sawyer (Nov 26, 2008)

BrownianHeatingTech said:
			
		

> Sawyer said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Understood, Joe


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 26, 2008)

Well, Today, the Garn barn is done except for the metal roof and the pipe work is done!
Friday we start with the wiring ..........
I cleaned out the inside of the 1500 and started adding water!


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 27, 2008)

OK here are some photos of the completed House boiler.


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 27, 2008)




----------



## Tattooz (Nov 27, 2008)




----------



## Tattooz (Nov 27, 2008)

Pex to copper coming into the house.


----------



## allan (Nov 27, 2008)

What are you going to use to cover all the copper pipe? Are you planning to circulate the water to the heat exchanger constantly? I'm building a building to house a garn boiler. I have a boiler that basically comes on when the water temp drops to 120 degrees and shuts off at 180 degrees. How is your boiler set up to run? Your project looks excellent


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 27, 2008)

EUP,
As soon as I get a feel for my min. useable temp from the Garn, my boiler, set up cold start, will come on at that temp. As soon as we test fire and run this thing for 48 hours, all the copper will be wrapped in insulating foam wrap.
The pumps that I am using have a trickle circulation so that water is constantly on the move otherwise, no the water will be in storage till called for.


----------



## BrownianHeatingTech (Nov 27, 2008)

Tattooz said:
			
		

> As soon as I get a feel for my min. useable temp from the Garn, my boiler, set up cold start, will come on at that temp. As soon as we test fire and run this thing for 48 hours, all the copper will be wrapped in insulating foam wrap.
> The pumps that I am using have a trickle circulation so that water is constantly on the move otherwise, no the water will be in storage till called for.



That temperature will vary based upon weather conditions, etc.  You may want to consider using an outdoor reset controller.

Joe


----------



## Sawyer (Nov 27, 2008)

Tattooz said:
			
		

> EUP,
> The pumps that I am using have a trickle circulation so that water is constantly on the move otherwise, no the water will be in storage till called for.



What brand pumps offer a trickle charge. I would think that would be a good feature for supply lines if there are worries of freezing.


----------



## BrownianHeatingTech (Nov 27, 2008)

Sawyer said:
			
		

> What brand pumps offer a trickle charge. I would think that would be a good feature for supply lines if there are worries of freezing.



Wilo Stratos, for one.  Very nice pumps.  Just sit down before reading the price lists.

Joe


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 27, 2008)

BrownianHeatingTech said:
			
		

> Sawyer said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Yup, Joe nailed it.......... Wilo, and the sitting down part........


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 29, 2008)




----------



## Tattooz (Nov 29, 2008)




----------



## Tattooz (Nov 29, 2008)




----------



## Tattooz (Nov 29, 2008)




----------



## Tattooz (Nov 29, 2008)




----------



## Tattooz (Nov 29, 2008)




----------



## Tattooz (Nov 29, 2008)




----------



## Tattooz (Nov 29, 2008)

Some updated photos..... Someone asked about  "outdoor reset" we are going to use a Tekmar 356 Control that will be able to vary the pump speed to change the system temp according to the outside temp..
So as the weather gets colder the control will try and maintain higher temps at the house HX by speeding up the pumps.... Thanks Chris!


----------



## fabguy01 (Nov 29, 2008)

looks good! what is the estimated cost of a set up like this? Also what is the life span of a garn boiler?


----------



## brad068 (Nov 29, 2008)

Tattooz said:
			
		

>



Can that pump be installed like that with the rotor shaft in a vertical plane? Most circs are installed with the rotor shaft in a horz. plane. The bearing surfaces are designed for a radial load not a constant thrust load.


----------



## allan (Nov 29, 2008)

Tattooz

What are you controlling with the JC A419? I'm formilar with this controller, it can be set in a couple of configurations for heating and cooling applications, but I'm not sure what you would be controlling? Also, what model number is the wilo pump you are using? Looks like your comming right along.


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 30, 2008)

Garnification said:
			
		

> Tattooz said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hey Garn,
I will look into it..... I have the manuel right in my hands.....


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 30, 2008)

EUP of MI said:
			
		

> Tattooz
> 
> What are you controlling with the JC A419? I'm formilar with this controller, it can be set in a couple of configurations for heating and cooling applications, but I'm not sure what you would be controlling? Also, what model number is the wilo pump you are using? Looks like your comming right along.




This pump is a Top s1.25X25 Wilo.


----------



## 88rxn/a (Nov 30, 2008)

Tattooz said:
			
		

>



sorry but im still learning this stuff. but thats an aquastat and well next to the temp gauge correct?


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 30, 2008)

yes......


----------



## TCaldwell (Nov 30, 2008)

tat,can you clear this up for me, i was under the impression that the concept of outdoor reset was to use the variable speed pump to  mix the supply temp based on the reset control calculations, however the gpm delivered to the hx would stay constant. and that if you wanted to vary the flow rate to the hx, that would be with a vsd pump controlled by the delta t  with sensors on the supply and return, as your delta t became larger the pump speed would increase to try to close the differential. thanks tom


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 30, 2008)

Hi Tom,
Let me look into it .... I will need some help with that question. But I will ask the people that are helping me with this!


----------



## Tattooz (Nov 30, 2008)

EUP of MI said:
			
		

> Tattooz
> 
> What are you controlling with the JC A419? I'm formilar with this controller, it can be set in a couple of configurations for heating and cooling applications, but I'm not sure what you would be controlling? Also, what model number is the wilo pump you are using? Looks like your comming right along.




From what I understand it's just a set point control for the auquatat


----------



## slowzuki (Nov 30, 2008)

Outdoor reset can be accomplished in different ways but the essential thing is the max btu's you can deliver is controlled by the outside conditions.  The idea is the heating equipment output is adjusted to match the houses heat loss.

You can do this by constant circ and a controller run 4 way, or variable speed injection, or temperature setting on a mod-con or well, lots of ways.  When it is really cold out it runs the exact same as a conventional setup.  When its not the reduced output leads to less overshoot of temperatures for some high challenge designs.

Outdoor reset isn't appropriate to throw at everything.


----------



## BrownianHeatingTech (Nov 30, 2008)

TCaldwell said:
			
		

> tat,can you clear this up for me, i was under the impression that the concept of outdoor reset was to use the variable speed pump to  mix the supply temp based on the reset control calculations, however the gpm delivered to the hx would stay constant. and that if you wanted to vary the flow rate to the hx, that would be with a vsd pump controlled by the delta t  with sensors on the supply and return, as your delta t became larger the pump speed would increase to try to close the differential. thanks tom



If you're trying to use outdoor reset the control the water temp, then you're correct.

However, I would presume that the idea here is to accept that a lower water temp is allowable during warmer conditions, and slow the pump to save electricity.  In other words, slowing the pump is the goal, rather than lowering the supply water temp - the lower acceptable temp is what _allows_ the pump to be slowed.

Joe


----------



## TCaldwell (Nov 30, 2008)

joe, being that the garn is a burn and store, with a widely fluctuating supply water temp as the day progresses, and not a relatively constant temp boiler that can controlled with a setpoint high limit. would the outdoor reset be beneficial. with the garn burned 12 months a year would it be better realizing the fluctuating supply temp to use a variable speed circ based on a delta t  between the supply and return, basically only if there is demand will the circ be pumping supply water based on the delta t need, if no need the hot supply water will stay in storage, thanks tom


----------



## BrownianHeatingTech (Nov 30, 2008)

TCaldwell said:
			
		

> joe, being that the garn is a burn and store, with a widely fluctuating supply water temp as the day progresses, and not a relatively constant temp boiler that can controlled with a setpoint high limit. would the outdoor reset be beneficial. with the garn burned 12 months a year would it be better realizing the fluctuating supply temp to use a variable speed circ based on a delta t  between the supply and return, basically only if there is demand will the circ be pumping supply water based on the delta t need, if no need the hot supply water will stay in storage, thanks tom



"Beneficial" will depend upon what you're trying to accomplish, and what your potential inefficiencies are.

For example, dropping the pump speed based upon outdoor temp will save electricity, and will reduce heat loss from piping (particularly important for buried pipe, where heat is lost to the outdoors, versus indoor pipes where the heat is just lost to the wrong part of the building).  However, while _heat_ loss will be lower, _temperature_ loss will be higher, so if the heat delivery system requires higher water temps (eg, a fan coil, or baseboard), the heat loss may not be as big of a factor as the temperature loss - heat is only usable if it is at the correct temperature.

Controlling based upon the delta-T will give you a very controllable delivery of heat, as you will be in an essentially-linear relationship at your heat exchanger (with a fixed delta-T, double the flow means double the heat transfer).  Higher flow rates than are actually necessary for conditions will result in greater heat loss from underground pipe (but lower temperature loss), so the issues above apply, but reversed.

Another option is to control for a fixed return water temperature.  This is frequently done to keep a condensing boiler in condensing operation, by slowing down flow when the return temp gets too high.  However, you can speed up flow to a zone pump in order to keep the return temperature _up_, which can be very important with things like fan coils - by keeping the average coil temperature over a certain setpoint, you never have the issue of blowing air that feels cool.  You can even operate based upon discharge-air-temperature, if you are dealing with a process that requires a certain temp (eg, an incubator).  Or based upon discharge-water-temp from the other side of a plate heat exchanger (or other heat exchanger) when that is the critical value (as in heating domestic water, or water for an aquarium, pool, or hot tub).

Variable-speed technology allows for a wide variety of control possibilities.  Adding "smart" controllers can allow for control based upon multiple functions at the same time, or establish certain limits.  For example, you could operate based upon outdoor temperature, but also have a hard limit programmed into the controller that will monitor the discharge temperature of the heat exchanger, and control based upon that if the outdoor reset curve tries to push the temperature too low (standard outdoor reset controllers provide that in a rudimentary way).

Joe


----------



## Tattooz (Dec 2, 2008)

Chris here it is.. Go ahead and cut and paste it in.

Tat's system will utilize a Tekmar 356 to control the pump on the Garn side of the flat plate Hx.  The Tekmar 356 is a very reliable, reasonably priced, control that is designed to provide either outdoor reset or setpoint temperature control of a heating system by varying the speed of a circulator that "injects"  higher temperature boiler water into the heating circuit through closely spaced tees in a primary / secondary configuration.  If you vary the speed of the boiler side pump on a system with a flat plate Hx separating the boiler from the building heating circuit you achieve the same thing.  The control is usually used to provide lower temperature water for radiant floor systems but can also be used to improve  baseboard and radiator based systems

The control has three sensors. A boiler side sensor that can be used to detect the temperature of either boiler supply or boiler return water.  A system sensor that detects the water temperature of the system water that the control is "controlling" and an outdoor temperature sensor.  In outdoor reset mode the control will increase pump speed of the injection pump (or in this case the Garn side heat exchanger pump) to raise system water temperature as the outdoor temperature drops.  In set point mode the control will increase or decrease the pump speed as necessary to maintain a constant system temperature even as the building load changes or as boiler water temperatures change.

In this application the "system" sensor will be attached to either the side of the Hx or to the boiler return piping at the Hx.   The control itself will be installed inside the living space of the house.  The control has an LCD screen which will display outdoor temperature,  boiler (Garn) water temperature and system water temperature.  It also displays relative pump speed.

The control achieves:

- Very low (trickle) pump speed under conditions of no or low heating loads.= lower power consumption
- Reduced underground heat loss through lower average underground flow rates
- Building system water temperature no higher than required depending on outdoor  temperature
- Indoor display of Garn water temperature

Tat's system is using the A419 setpoint control (along with two Taco SR-501 relays) to interrupt the demand signal to the Tekmar, and enable the oil boiler when the Garn water temperature drops below a preset minimum.  When the Garn temperature is above the setpoint minimum, the Tekmar is enabled, the Garn side variable speed pump runs and the pump between the HX and the house system piping is controlled by the existing house zone control.  In the future we will probably replace the A419 with a reset control which will look at outdoor temperature to calculate a minimum Garn temperature at which the oil boiler takes over.

Chris Holley
FHS


----------



## foxt (Dec 2, 2008)

I recently took delivery of a WHS 2000, and have been following tat's progress with appreciation for the opportunity to learn from someone else.  My setup will be similar to his, the biggest difference being that I am only heating one building.  I have a similar "before" situation, and have been planning a similar "after" situation.   I plan to reconfigure my supply/return manifolds into a p/s arrangement, and have the GARN hx and the fossil-backup supply the primary in parallel.  

Tat, I've been wondering what kind of control scheme you were going to employ for the GARN-hx-primary config, so thanks for posting the details about the tekmar, etc.  I am confused about one thing in that post:



			
				Tattooz said:
			
		

> and the pump between the HX and the house system piping is controlled by the existing house zone control



Can you please help me with the following questions?

1) I assume you left the "before" manifold circ in place, and have not changed the control scheme for that?
2) For each of the source circs, are they decoupled from the primary circ?  How are you controlling those, especially the circ between the hx and the primary?  I didn't follow what was meant by "existing house zone control"?
3) The head loss for my 50 plate hx is less than the loss I currently have through the boiler, so I was thinking I could plumb the hx right into the primary loop and eliminate a circ for the hx secondary and any associated control complexities.  I know that there was a thread on this idea somewhere else, but as I recall it didn't wind up with any specific conclusion.  Did you consider this, and if so, why did you go the way you did?
4) I can't make out your dial temp gauges, and I was wondering what brand they were.  I have about half-dozen Letro gauges in my existing system, and I like them because they have a scale that's more suited to hydronic heating vs. automobiles or biodiesel (I think that they are 50* - 220* ).  

Thanks for any answers, and thanks again for sharing your progress with the rest of us ....

Tom


----------



## Tattooz (Dec 3, 2008)

Tom, I had to enlist the help of Chris Holley at Floor Heating systems here in MAine for your answers. Chris is my Garn Distributer and has done all the site plan for my set up.

Tom, in answer to your questions:

1) Yes the "before" system circulator is still in place. It is called on by an end switch on an existing Taco ZVC 406 zone control. (the ZVC  is the "existing house zone control I previously referred to). The oil boiler circ is controlled by the oil boiler Honeywell L8148 cold start aquastat.  

2) Yes the two "source" circs are de-coupled from the system circ.   When the Garn is below minimum temperature  the ZVC calls on the L8148 boiler aquastat which in turn switches the oil boiler circ.. When the Garn is above minimum temperature the ZVC calls on a Taco SR-501 relay which in turn switches the Hx circ.

3) I think piping the hx directly into the primary loop is good idea. It would save a circ.  In Tat's case I was focused on keeping the Hx  close to the underground line entry point because his design flow is right up against head loss limits for that underground loop.  The run from that underground entry wall to a Hx at the  boiler would have added another 80 lineal feet of piping (after adding equivalent fitting losses).  So..no it didn't occur to me. Now if that run had been done in 1 1/2" rather than 1 1/4 " copper that  would only have added about a foot and a half of head loss and it would have been a good alternative.

4) From the photo I'd say that those are 2 1/2" Pasco or Honeywell/Sparco thermometers which are the supply house norm in Tat's area.  I also really like the larger Letra thermometers but they're not generally available at plumbing supply houses in Maine.  BTW, I just noticed that Letro also makes relatively inexpensive flow meters.

One more thing..if you go the Tekmar route and and you have an indirect hot water heater as one of your zones you'll want to wire your controls to put full line voltage on the Garn pump during a hot water call.

Chris Holley
FHS


----------



## dolmen (Dec 3, 2008)

Great thread this ... but I'd love to see some video of these machines up and running, there's only one on the whole web that I can find.

Cheers

;-)


----------



## Tattooz (Dec 3, 2008)

dolmen said:
			
		

> Great thread this ... but I'd love to see some video of these machines up and running, there's only one on the whole web that I can find.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> ;-)





As soon as mine is running you will find it right here!!


----------



## dolmen (Dec 3, 2008)

Thanks, that'll be great.

Cheers

;-)


----------



## Tattooz (Dec 5, 2008)

Exhaust Dump....


----------



## Tattooz (Dec 5, 2008)

I have two water wells, that for lack of a better word SUCK! one is 450 feet deep 1 gal a min. the other is 650 feet deep same water. So with that said, DRUM ROLL PLEASE......






THIS THING IS HALF FULL......... STARTING A FIRE ON SAT!!


----------



## Tattooz (Dec 5, 2008)

PS the brown tint to that water is not my crappy wells.... I do get clean water from them. That is the PRECLEEN that the Garn Chem people send.


----------



## Tattooz (Dec 5, 2008)




----------



## Tattooz (Dec 5, 2008)

My Garn Barn....


----------



## Tattooz (Dec 5, 2008)




----------



## brad068 (Dec 5, 2008)

Tattooz said:
			
		

> I have two water wells, that for lack of a better word SUCK! one is 450 feet deep 1 gal a min. the other is 650 feet deep same water. So with that said, DRUM ROLL PLEASE......
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I noticed this at the mrea this year too. Garn paints some kind of "paint" on the bottom third of the water jacket. I think this is to prevent corrosion from sediment buildup on the bottom. The unit I fixed and got running and a neighbors both rusted through in the same spot, right on the very bottom. Well after 20 years with little to no maintenance somethings gotta give!?


----------



## Tattooz (Dec 5, 2008)

Garn,
Yup Some sort of white paint. Made for easy cleaning when I vacuumed it out then hand washed the inside before this filling!


----------



## sdrobertson (Dec 5, 2008)

This is truely a class A setup.  Just plain beatiful.


----------



## jklingel (Dec 5, 2008)

I've been meaning to ask: What is the design of the slab under these Garns? A 12' x 12' pad, 6" deep w/ lots of rebar in addition to the wire? 8"? Thanks. j


----------



## foxt (Dec 5, 2008)

That really depends on what kind of soil you have.  According to the GARN install manual, a full WHS 2000 presents a load of 1810psf on the skids.  That's manageable for a 4" slab with 6x6 mesh on average soil using 3000psi concrete.  If you have soft/wet soil (sandy, or clay), you'll need a thicker slab/more reinforcement.


----------



## Tattooz (Dec 5, 2008)

sdrobertson said:
			
		

> This is truely a class A setup.  Just plain beatiful.



Sd,
Thanks for that. I am very pleased with the way things are turning out!


----------



## Tattooz (Dec 5, 2008)

foxt said:
			
		

> That really depends on what kind of soil you have.  According to the GARN install manual, a full WHS 2000 presents a load of 1810psf on the skids.  That's manageable for a 4" slab with 6x6 mesh on average soil using 3000psi concrete.  If you have soft/wet soil (sandy, or clay), you'll need a thicker slab/more reinforcement.



Yup Fox is right .. we loaded some Xtra rebar to the crete... just in case ......


----------



## jklingel (Dec 5, 2008)

Good to know on the 'crete. I have not looked up any load specs on 'crete; still looking for them. From a gut, I figured 6" w/ wire and criss-crossed rebar would suffice.


----------



## topofthehil (Dec 5, 2008)

that's a nice looking set up.
I wish my water looked that clean.
it tested ok, but looks cloudy to me.
I like your stack exhaust dump.
why didn't you go with the 45^ angle off the end?
won't the 90^ have more turbulence?
what do you have in the bottom for a damper... sand?
I got a little overzealous when I set up my Garn and neglected to install the exhaust dump.
spark will fly from time to time and they did...  and they set some firewood on fire that I had dumped close by.
lucky I had buried a 1" poly water line to the shop when I installed the underground piping.
I installed it to fill the boiler, but it sure came in handy to put the fire out. 
I also buried a 12-2 UF cable "just in case" and another 1" poly line to use as a raceway for another "just in case".


----------



## Tattooz (Dec 5, 2008)

topofthehil said:
			
		

> that's a nice looking set up.
> I wish my water looked that clean.
> it tested ok, but looks cloudy to me.
> I like your stack exhaust dump.
> ...




Hey Top,
Post some photos of your install.
Yes it will have sand in a few more days....
As for the 45.... This is what came with my Gar Unit...... 
How long have you been using yours.... Got any pointers for a new guy   ...


----------



## topofthehil (Dec 5, 2008)

tattooz,
this will be the second year for my Garn 2000.
have you ever registered on the Garn web site for there forum?
it's not up and running yet, but you can sign up now.
they will email you when it gets going.
they will have installation pics and tips as well as a blog.
I can't figure out how to put pics on this site.
the first time you start your unit, there will be condensate coming out of the flue by the gallon.
I thought something was wrong ... like there was a leak.
but, after talking to my neighbor, who has been using a Garn for about 20 + years, he said his did the same.
after the initial charge, it never happened again.
keep an eye on the exhaust, and if there is too much turbulance, you can turn that single wall 90^ elbow into a 45 or what ever angle it takes to make for less turbulance. you may need to bounce the exhaust off the cement wall prior to it hitting the sand. that will slow it down a little.
you may want to run the circulators prior to firing up the Garn to make sure they all work like planned.
I'm still having problems with my infloor heat not working. it never has worked.
it's not a Garn problem. I think it's pump sensor problem, or maybe a ... I wish I knew, as I am using LP to heat these rooms.
When I first turn the thermostat up to call for heat, the pumps may run for a minute or two.
Then, they will just continually click on and off. 
If I jumper the contacts at the pumps, then they will run consistently until I 
remove the jumper. 
The floors on the first floor level do not heat up. 
However, the basement infloor and the plenum HE in the basement of the old house do work.
Each loop manifold is supplied by a Taco 007 circ pump.
The thermostat is an Uponor 501s controller which utilizes slab sensors.
I should start a new thread on this.
again, nice job on your set up.
what's the tattooz stand for ... have you been under a needle a time or two?


----------



## Tattooz (Dec 5, 2008)




----------



## brad068 (Dec 6, 2008)

Hey Tat, I take it that thats not grease on yours arms  

On hilltoppers idea of the 45 on the exhaust is a good idea. When my unit was in my work shop I had it exhausting out then 90 down. In my case, the 90 did seem to cause to much turbulence and restriction and when the exhaust plumes came up out of the 55 gal barrel they seemed to hang around and get sucked back in the intake. My new setup has a 55 gal barrel with a 45 flue pipe angled at the barrel. Seems to burn better and not hang around as much but now that there is snow on the ground, I moved the barrel and let the exhaust blow outward.


----------



## Tattooz (Dec 6, 2008)

Thanks Garn, I'll keep it in mind.
We are going to light this baby up tomorrow sometime Im thinking. If we do I should have some video of the event here!


----------



## foxt (Dec 6, 2008)

Tattooz said:
			
		

> As for the 45.... This is what came with my Gar Unit......



Just checking, can"t tell from your pix, but mine came with a flex 90 that I wrestled into a 45 ...


----------



## Tattooz (Dec 6, 2008)

Here I just ran out and took this...


----------



## Tattooz (Dec 6, 2008)

As we speak I am about 10 inches from the top with the water!!


----------



## foxt (Dec 6, 2008)

Yeah, you've got a flex 90, go ahead and rotate those sections one by one so that the elbow is a 45 ...


----------



## Tattooz (Dec 7, 2008)

Sorry all, Had a mess of end less wires today we wont fire this till wednesday .....


----------



## Tattooz (Dec 8, 2008)

I better hurry up.....


----------



## topofthehil (Dec 8, 2008)

tattooz
you may need to extend the horizontal flue out another 2' to 3' away from your wood sided building.
I have mine extending 3' from the outside wall.
the wall is steel, but I still did not want to chance it.
it wouldn't need to be the triple wall, single SS like your 90 - 45 should be ok.
I would hate to see some sparks start that siding on fire.


----------



## Jim K in PA (Dec 8, 2008)

topofthehil said:
			
		

> tattooz
> you may need to extend the horizontal flue out another 2' to 3' away from your wood sided building.
> I have mine extending 3' from the outside wall.
> the wall is steel, but I still did not want to chance it.
> ...



I agree with the above.  I have soot starting to collect on the siding, as my double wall only extends about 18" from the shed.  I'll be adding some pipe to that.


Tat - I fired mine for the first time on Friday afternoon.  What a great feeling, and just in time for the cold spell and snow we had on Saturday.  I'll have pics and video up on my web site tomorrow.


----------



## Tattooz (Dec 9, 2008)

Jim,
Great photos..... Cant wait for the Video!


----------



## Tattooz (Dec 10, 2008)

Garn has their forums up now......
Check it out....
Tomorrow AM I am firing this baby up..!!


----------

