# Geothermal Cost In Massachusetts area



## biohill (Jul 18, 2008)

Anyone have a ballpark on the cost of a geothermal system installed in MA? I am building a house next summer and trying to figure out if it is a possibilty. If it matters we will probably buy a lot in the range of 1-1.5 acres. Thanks for any information


----------



## JimmyMood (Jul 18, 2008)

I have heard of quotes in the 12k range, but I believe that was for existing duct work from the furnace.  If you are building on a new lot, it will be easier to install the tubing in trenches instead of in deep wells like is often done on existing lots to minimize the amount of re-landscaping.  I have some links to geothermal sites around, I can forward them if you like.


----------



## flyingcow (Jul 18, 2008)

If you plan on having central a/c,-- any kind of heat pump of geo thermal would pay for itself. just guessing.


----------



## Redox (Jul 19, 2008)

flyingcow said:
			
		

> If you plan on having central a/c,-- any kind of heat pump of geo thermal would pay for itself. just guessing.



Amen, brother!  With the price of fossil fuels going the way they are, a heat pump makes sense in just about any climate.  They are only a couple hundred more dollars than an AC unit.

And stop calling it Geothermal! ;-P 

Chris


----------



## Jerry_NJ (Jul 19, 2008)

The cost depends on the size of your house, an the insulation... 
If you looking for the cost over the cost of another forced air system, i.e., all need the duct work, I'd say the geothermal will run (roughly) $20-$25K more than an oil/NGas/Conventional air-to-air heat pump.  Some is of cost is the higher cost of the HP and the additional cost of the geothermal tap.  This is a very rough guess, but I'd say if you're over 1,500 sq feet, forget the $12K estimate.  

There may be rebates to help from the power company, or your state.  

Do a search on geothermal, there have been long threads on this subject in past months.


----------



## begreen (Jul 19, 2008)

The cost is going to depend on the heating/cooling load and the type of installation (vertical or horizontal loop). If this is a decent sized home >2000 sq ft. I would expect it to be closer to $25K or more installed if you included the excavation. The compressor cost might be reduced if you spend up front for a super insulated home with 8", staggered 2x4 walls.


----------



## biohill (Jul 19, 2008)

JimmyMood said:
			
		

> I have heard of quotes in the 12k range, but I believe that was for existing duct work from the furnace.  If you are building on a new lot, it will be easier to install the tubing in trenches instead of in deep wells like is often done on existing lots to minimize the amount of re-landscaping.  I have some links to geothermal sites around, I can forward them if you like.




That would be excellent


----------



## Jerry_NJ (Jul 19, 2008)

biohill,  "hold on" don't think the low bidder on this forum will be attainable.  This isn't sour-grapes, but don't want you to get your econo-hopes up too high.  If you make it for $12K let us know who, it may get them a lot more business.

I am very happy with my geoghermal HP, have owned it for over 15 years, trouble-free.  With the NJ electric rates up to 20 cents per KWH, the efficiency pays even greater dividends.


----------



## FLASHMAN (Jul 22, 2008)

biohill said:
			
		

> Anyone have a ballpark on the cost of a geothermal system installed in MA? I am building a house next summer and trying to figure out if it is a possibilty. If it matters we will probably buy a lot in the range of 1-1.5 acres. Thanks for any information



Building new is obviously the best (and most cost effective) time to install Geothermal HVAC... From what I've heard, most estimates are approximately 20% higher than a conventional oil or gas fired HVAC system. IMHO, that's pretty good considering that, if combined with a decent PV solar array at some point down the road, or even better, during construction, you effectively have FREE heat and AC. Over the life of a 30 year mortgage, that extra 20% initial outlay will pay for itself a hundred fold or more, AND with solar electricity you won't be at the mercy of rising fossil fuel costs. (at least not for heat). just my 2 cents


----------



## nhjohn (Jul 23, 2008)

I think you are probably looking at closer to 20-25K.


----------



## bigblue (Jul 23, 2008)

I just got a quote today on our 3K square foot house.  This would include a new well and all new duct work as we currently have oil fired forced hot water and baseboard can't be used.  The well would be approx. 10K as it would need to be at least 680 feet deep and have 6-8 gallons per minute.  The inside work would be 32-35K.  A lot of money but still a good long term investment if staying in the house for 10 years or more.


----------



## Jerry_NJ (Jul 23, 2008)

bigblue (IBM?) 

Your numbers are in the ball-park of what I would have guessed.  I have two 500 foot "wells" (vertical ground loops) and that was about $4K 15 years ago.  Sounds like your contractor plans on only one loop, but a lot deeper.  That may be because of the water table.  We hit water here in the 50 feet or so and solid (well for house) at 120 feet. So most of my 500 foot loops are immersed in water.

I've been watching the loop input temperature during these days of heavy air conditioning in the NYC area and that has, in low speed of my two speed system, about 68 degrees.  That's a lot better than the air outside, in the 90s.  That's were the efficiency of the geo-system comes from.


----------



## Redox (Jul 23, 2008)

bigblue said:
			
		

> I just got a quote today on our 3K square foot house.  This would include a new well and all new duct work as we currently have oil fired forced hot water and baseboard can't be used.  The well would be approx. 10K as it would need to be at least 680 feet deep and have 6-8 gallons per minute.  The inside work would be 32-35K.  A lot of money but still a good long term investment if staying in the house for 10 years or more.



6-8 GPM???  I don't think you are supposed to be removing the water from the well.  They are supposed to just be dry wells backfilled with bentonite or other "filler".

Chris


----------



## Jerry_NJ (Jul 23, 2008)

Oh, I didn't read carefully, you are saying a open loop system, feed from a 680' deep well?  That's a lot of lift if you're not running the water back down to help "suck" the water up.  My system is closed loop, so the pumps, there are two, have to push the water around the loop, not lift it 500'.


----------



## bigblue (Jul 24, 2008)

Redox said:
			
		

> bigblue said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is a standing column design.  So water is returned to the well unless the temperature in the well changes a certain amount and then it is bled off.  Not sure why they quoted this type, I'll have to ask.  But they put in over 150 systems last year so they ought to know what they're doing.  Still have a big decision to make.


----------



## Redox (Jul 24, 2008)

I have a friend that has a system like this and he complains that his drinking water is hot in the summer!  

I always thought putting anything back into a well was verboten, but I'm no authority on the subject.  Where are you going to bleed the water to?

How much are well drillers charging these days?

Inquiring minds...

Chris


----------



## bigblue (Jul 24, 2008)

If water needs to be bled off it is piped into either a dry well, foundation drain, or other drain area.  This would need to be piped as part of the installation obviously and be something that could handle several gallons a minute if needed.  They said many systems rarely bleed off but it needs to be there in case.  
Warm drinking water in the summer; something to think about.
The other thing I was told is many places with existing wells have a different well drilled for the geo.


----------



## Jerry_NJ (Jul 24, 2008)

While my system, running closed loop as required by NJ law, would have slightly higher efficiency if it was run open loop (all other conditions being equal) I wonder if that would be the case if it were pumping water from hundreds of feet below the grown and dumping it in a dry well near the surface.  This approach would draw a lot more power ($$$) to move the water but would not have any affect on the temperature of the aquifer located hundreds of feet below the surface.  That's why the efficiency is higher, for example, my closed loop goes into the upper 60s, when the A/C is running hard, while the ground water mostly likely is in the low 50s.  Given even a closed loop system is dumping heat (in a/c mode) into the aquifer, maybe more so than an open loop dumping water near the surface, I can say if the drinking water temperature of my well is going up, I don't notice it.


----------



## Brumwood (Jul 25, 2008)

I have someone coming out o my house this weekend to measure floor sq ft, window and door sq ft, insulation, etc... they will take all the info gathered, input into a standard program that will determine the most efficient layout of system. They told me that a starting price would be 22k - 25k. I believe I have enough land to do a horizontal loop. I have access to an excavator so I will dig the trenches myself. I have a friend in HVAC that will help with duct materials and installation. Those 2 components of the job are quite pricy so I hope to save a lot. Depending on the make, I have found 3 - 4 ton heat xchange units to be around 5k and up. 
I have 2400 sq ft home with an oil fired tankless system and forced hot water base board heat only 7 years old. Anybody want to buy it? I'm convinced that this is the way to go!

Oh Yeah, the first quote I recieved from a local company was between 50K - 80K for a standard 2000sq ft home, I laughed and said thanks but no thanks but they are out there.

Good luck!

Brett


----------



## Jerry_NJ (Jul 25, 2008)

Check with your local Waterfurnace dealer, I've had very good service from that brand.  I have a 15 year old Premier AT Series, two speed, their best model back then as I remember.  I have 2,000 sf in central/north NJ, so you'd need something bigger than I have I'd guess.  Mine is the smallest offered in this Series back then, they offered two larger models.


----------



## bigblue (Jul 25, 2008)

Here is the reply from the geothermal company regarding using the open loop, standing column design over a closed loop of either vertical or horizonal style;

Yes, the open loop standing column is more efficient. You have a well that can be possibly drilled deeper, replace the pump and offset for a lot less money than a closed loop system. The manufacturer recommends a hole 175'long x 3'wide x by 6'-8'deep per ton for horizontal loops; or, approx. 1,000' vertical bored hole(s) filled with a special grout.
Hopefully this helps.
staff


----------



## Redox (Jul 25, 2008)

Methinks they are confusing "efficient" with "cost effective".  I believe you will burn up more pump HP with an open loop, but the installation will be cheaper.

Chris


----------



## Jerry_NJ (Jul 25, 2008)

I still have the "computer" run on my design, and it shows, as stated, I have two 500' vertical loops, e.g., 1000' and I have a 4 ton unit.  The vertical loop is filled with a "special" grout... not sure about the "special" part, but grout in any case. 

I will have to check to get the numbers, but I can say the two pumps I have to circulate water in the loop use only a small percentage of the power needed to heat/cool. These pumps use much less power than does my drinking water well pump which is at 125'.


----------



## heaterman (Jul 25, 2008)

Guys, there are only two types of GSHP systems as far as the well goes.  They are open loop or "pump & dump" and closed loop.

An open loop design uses water pumped from a regular water well, through a heat exchanger and then "dumped" into a pond or some other disposal method. The water is not put back into the water table. This method is much less expensive to do but has higher ongoing costs due to the hours of run time accumulated on the well pump motor, usually 1/2-1HP.

A closed loop system is just that. You have a "well" which is the equivalent of the shell in a shell and tube type heat exchanger and the closed loop which is the "tube" side of the aforementioned device. The system fluid (usually methanol or glycol based) is contained in the closed loop and is never in direct contact with the ground water. The system fluid picks up or sheds heat through the wall of the tubing which is in continuous contact with the ground water.

Go to the ClimateMaster website for a good visual explanation of the technology I have attempted to describe.

http://www.climatemaster.com/

Now. If you want the ultimate in efficiency AND comfort, connect said heat pump to a water to water HX driving a low temp radiant floor or wall system. Sit back in the easy chair and say Aaahhhhhhhhhhh. Throw in a solar panel system for DHW heating and thumb your nose at the utility company.


----------



## Redox (Jul 25, 2008)

Heaterman: There is a third type that I have never seen reference to anywhere but personal experience and here from bigblue.  They are returning the water to the well from which it is pumped.  It's not in any textbooks that I can find, but is apparently happening.  I'm not sure it's 100% kosher as I always thought reinjecting anything back into a well was frowned on by the code police.  The business is still in its infancy and apparently there are people that are thinking outside the box.  I have a friend with such a system with over a decade of good results that I really can't argue with.  

I have been considering the radiant heat pump idea, but haven't seen anybody building anything like this.  I thought about building my own, but the to-do list is long enough already...

Chris


----------



## Jerry_NJ (Jul 26, 2008)

I believe about 15 years ago there was also a design that buried the heat exchanger/coils..the copper with the gas running through it, hot or cold.  I may have an old sales booklet, but haven't looked for it.


----------



## heaterman (Jul 26, 2008)

Interesting Redox. The water police would never let that fly here in the Great Lakes state. Once the water is out of the well for whatever use it can not be returned to the aquifer. I'd be curious to know just exactly what the parameters of that system are.


----------



## Redox (Jul 26, 2008)

Yeah, I'd like to be a fly on the wall during that permit application.  I don't think it is code here either.  The system I have seen is about 10-15 years old now and just takes domestic water through a solenoid valve and flowmeter and puts it back in the top of the well.  It can't run the well dry and the pump is as old as the house.  It's like the way a bumblebee isn't supposed to be able to fly, but it apparently works!

I've heard of burying the refigerant line directly in the ground, but never seen it done.  The ex-refrigeration mechanic in me shudders to think of the potential problems with it, but in theory, it should be more efficient.  If nothing else, it would have to hold a boatload of refrigerant and the thought of a leak makes me cringe.  I don't think I'd want to go there!

Just out of curiosity Jerry, what are you using as the heat transfer fluid?  You seem to be our resident expert on GSHP systems and I'm just looking for background information.  Heat pumps in general have only been around since the mid '70s.  Water source heat pumps have been around almost as long, but the genius that thought of burying the HX probably only came up with it in the '90s.  The industry is still in its infancy, but the technology is mature enough that I think I would give it a try.  Don't let me talk you out of it, bigblue!

Chris


----------



## Jerry_NJ (Jul 26, 2008)

My closed loop uses water with some additives, antifreeze mostly as I recall.  It has never required service or even checking.  The, now old, Premier AT 2-speed has a central processor that monitors a number of functions, including flow in the ground loop.  It was installed in November 1993.  The heating/closed-loop in low speed is rated at 4.3 with a loop temperature of 32 degrees, must be even better under normal conditions.  It drops to 3.1 in high speed.  These are at 22.4K BTU and 33K BTU respectively.  I've looked at the current crop of Waterfunace top-of-the-line, and they are not a big improvement over what I have...suggests when I need a new compressor, that may be what I'll do, not replace the whole "furnace".  Nice the ground loop should never need more than a recharge of the fluid.

I found the brochure for the buried copper, it was for US Power. States it uses HCFC-22, and talks about a COP of 3-6+ and SEER oof 12-20+, about the same as my closed loop Waterfurnace.


----------



## Kemer (Jul 26, 2008)

I have a private 35 acre lake in my front yard and a air to air heat pump.I also just installed a eko boiler and have it tied into my system.I was going to go geothermal but my friend who has one said it uses a lot of electricity.Electric is going up 30% soon.any opinions on pond loops?


----------



## Jerry_NJ (Jul 26, 2008)

A pond loop, if the pond is deep enough, would be about the best.  Here I assume the pond isn't at a much lower elevation.  Part of the energy used is lifting water.

Geothermal is all about using LESS electricity (power/energy)...I have no idea what your "friend" was trying to tell you.  Yes, a geothermal uses more electric power than an oil or NG furnace, but it uses NO oil or NG.  In all but very moderated weather the geothermal HP will use much less energy than your air-to-air HP.  Given NE PA, there must be at least 3 months of the year that the air-to-air heat pump isn't much better than resistive heat.  The geothermal will heat when it is zero degrees outside with the same efficiency as a good air-to-air would do at 45 degrees outside.... here I mean BTU per KWH.


----------



## Redox (Jul 26, 2008)

I think the lake is a great idea!  I don't think you need a loop in the lake, either.  Just put a raw water intake somewhere offshore, pump it once through the heat pump and blow it back to the lake.  It would even make a nice decorative fountain and could add aeration.

If you already have a heat pump, you are already half there.  I would go for a cheap GSHP for the days when you don't feel like feeding the EKO and for cooling.  The new heat pump can't use any more electric than the old one did and, I'd bet will counteract that 30% increase.

Chris


----------



## Kemer (Jul 26, 2008)

wouldn't it be a problem filtering the water if I just drew it out


----------



## Jerry_NJ (Jul 27, 2008)

I'm not sure I follow Redox's suggestions, but yes, there would have to be some kind of a screen to block debris from getting into the loop.  Of course, you still need a water heat exchanger type heat pump, not the air-to-air you have, so your "half way there" in my view is you have the duct work and electrical power runs.  Any open loop system, should work, as (I assume) the open loop is prepared to pump water around the loop, and given the pond isn't far below, a shallow well pump is all thats needed...properly connected to the HVAC control circuitry.


----------



## Redox (Jul 27, 2008)

Yeah, raw water is an issue.  You need to keep the trash out of the pump and probably have a stainer somewhere that can screen out the stuff that can clog the HX.  A coaxial HX is just a coiled tube that can stand some particulates through it.  A plate HX has much closer tolerances and will require a much finer strainer, but not impossible to pull off.  A cleanable HX has heads that can be pulled off and brushed out to keep the crap under control.  If you have a large body of water, you can pump it directly through the heat pump.  It's cheap and effective, assuming you can keep the trash under control.  You also have to consider biological growth that can end up in your heat pump and slow down heat transfer.  A periodic shot of chlorine bleach usually solves this problem.Many of the larger boats out there have heat pumps that simply draw water from their surrounding waters and blow it back overboard.  

Chris


----------



## Kemer (Jul 27, 2008)

I have a setup where I use a shallow well pump to pump water up from lake to take care of my landscaping although it's just for garden hoses.I was worried that sprinkler heads might clog.Ineed to find a good screen/filter.With a closed loop system I won't have to worry about freezing issues as much.My hvac guy seems to think water furnance is the best any input?
He also said seer rating differances arn't all that great although I'll get a few more months use vs air to air
Thanks Harry


----------



## DaveM195352 (Jul 27, 2008)

Maine here  - live 25Ft off a flowing river.  I am interested in extracting the heat out of that lake water. Some form of heat pump or geothermal????  Suggestions and websites to research????

Thanks
Dave from Maine


----------



## Jerry_NJ (Jul 27, 2008)

Kemer,

I am a Waterfurnace owner, see my post here and elsewhere on Geothermal.

Many power boats use the lake/river to cool engines, all outboards do as far as I know.  There's an efficient heat pump for you, albeit only the engine gets cooled, important that is if you want to keep going.  Point: an outboard generates a lot of heat and the lake does a great job of cooling.  I've never had my outboard motor cooling system plug up from anything.  Of course, it is drawing water from near the top.


----------



## Redox (Jul 27, 2008)

Jerry, I was referring to the air conditioners on those boats.  Most of the big ones that you see are using seawater in a heat pump for air conditioning and heat.  It works great until the water you are floating in gets below about 40 degrees or so.  Here on the Chesapeake Bay, that usually happens about mid-late December and doesn't change until March.  

Just about any natural source of water can be used for cooling.  If it consistently stays above 40F, it can also be used for heating.  All these applications for water source heat pumps are still relatively new and users with a long track record are few and far between.  

I suspect that a flowing stream will tend to drop in temperature as the ambient drops to the point that it may freeze solid in the winter, if it gets cold enough.  Most larger bodies of water will have a temperature difference between the top and the bottom.  This means that you may have ice on the surface, but have 40 degree water underneath.  Can you extract that heat without causing the pond to freeze solid?  No one can really say for sure.  

My parents have a spring on their property that is providing about 4GPM at 50F year round.  I have been thinking about cobbling something together to take advantage of this, but so far, it hasn't been a priority.  If I had that large lake on my property, I'd put in some kind of temperature measuring system to see what the temps run at various depths and at various times of year.  Above 40 is easy, below 40 you would need to put in a glycol loop.  It's more complicated, but not overly expensive.

I'm just thinking out loud here and definitely WAAAY outside the box.  If anyone finds any resources, let me know.  I'm very interested in this sort of thing.

Chris


----------



## Jerry_NJ (Jul 27, 2008)

A friend, work colleague, of mine who retired to North Carolina about 20 years ago had a water source/sink heat pump installed.  His property had lake front, on a golf course.  He didn't have to worry much about freezing weather, but he did have a big cooling need/load.  He has since moved in with family and I doubt he remembers much about his past HP experience.  In any case, I know of one dating back about 20 years.


----------



## Kemer (Jul 27, 2008)

Redox,Thanks for the info.I think mapping out the tempature this winter is good idea.I think for what I put into my EKO install I could of had a geo put in but I also have few hundred acres to gather wood from and my brother and I both put in wood boilers together and that made it easier and cheaper.My brother has a constant water sorce also so he could of have done it also.
any way I cant resist high tec stuff and i'm sure there will be one in my future.any info on super deheaters/chillers(I think thats wat there called)


----------



## Redox (Jul 28, 2008)

Kemer said:
			
		

> Redox,Thanks for the info.I think mapping out the tempature this winter is good idea.I think for what I put into my EKO install I could of had a geo put in but I also have few hundred acres to gather wood from and my brother and I both put in wood boilers together and that made it easier and cheaper.My brother has a constant water sorce also so he could of have done it also.
> any way I cant resist high tec stuff and i'm sure there will be one in my future.any info on super deheaters/chillers(I think thats wat there called)



There was a discussion on them a while back in the Green room:

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/19490/

I'd love to put in an EKO and a GSHP, but I have to finish paying off the stove and splitter first!  I guess it's just the price of progress...

Chris


----------

