# Seton had a meltdown. Help me pick the replacement!



## Akgasser (Jan 3, 2011)

So after getting the Seton 130 all set up and working reliably, sealing all the air leaks and setting up a vent hood system, we had a 100MPH windstorm that knocked out our power for a day. Apparently the step I missed in setting up the boiler was the backup power system to run the circ pumps when the power goes out. So I woke up the other night around 2am to find the bottom floor of the house full of smoke, and the 3 bay garage was like a big smoky steam room. The boiler heated up to around 600 degrees and the wind blew the smoke back down the stack and it filled up the garage. Guess I didn't get all the air leaks. 

Anyways, homeowners insurance is taking care of things and I'm getting a different wood boiler. My official stance on the Seton is that it is an antiquated design with poor craftsmanship and setup instructions which leave more than a few things out. 

I'm looking at the new TARM 60 or possibly a new GARN wood boiler. Right now we're running off diesel on the backup system. 

We're heating about 6200SF worth of slab...garage, basement, and the gypcrete on the 1/2 floors. 

Which boiler would u get?

Thanks for the help.


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## Como (Jan 3, 2011)

There was a thread below yours which said the Seton was 200% efficient. Not sure you are going to be able to match that!

Did the Boiler when it was working meet your needs, do you have storage, do you want storage. A Garn needs a lot of space, do you have room for one?

There is the Froling if you ant to go high tech and have the budget.


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## Akgasser (Jan 3, 2011)

The previous thread about the Seton also eluded to the fact that the author didn't believe any of those claims made by Fred Seton. 

I have 130gal storage with the Boilermate. Looking hard at the TARM 60...GARN prob not so much


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## 2.beans (Jan 4, 2011)

i had mine do that when i first got it during a storm. im a lineman so i wasnt home to know that it was melting down.


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## Pat53 (Jan 4, 2011)

Even tho I'm having some trouble with mine currently, I do believe I will get it working the way I want. however, with that said, I wish I would have researched better before deciding on the Seton. There are much better boilers available IMO. Good luck with whatever you decide. What are you going to do with the Seton?


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## Jesse-M (Jan 4, 2011)

That sucks........Had a couple of power outages my first year but was home at the time. You have never seen someone unload a boiler ( that was mid burn ) as fast as I did...opened the door and manually opened the damper after all the wood and coals where out to cool off the refractory as much as possible. The blow off went at 210*.....still had pressure in my well tank so there was water there to replace it with the automatic fill valve.......went pretty well after that, blew off for less than a minute. Now I have a circ plugged into a UPS (wired to two 12V batteries) to help with the no power event.


PS   How much for the Seton       Edit: I see Pat53 beat me to it


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## Pat53 (Jan 4, 2011)

Jesse said:
			
		

> That sucks........Had a couple of power outages my first year but was home at the time. You have never seen someone unload a boiler ( that was mid burn ) as fast as I did...opened the door and manually opened the damper after all the wood and coals where out to cool off the refractory as much as possible. The blow off went at 210*.....still had pressure in my well tank so there was water there to replace it with the automatic fill valve.......went pretty well after that, blew off for less than a minute. Now I have a circ plugged into a UPS (wired to two 12V batteries) to help with the no power event.
> 
> 
> PS   How much for the Seton       Edit: I see Pat53 beat me to it



LOL, hey, I don't want the damn thing, just wondering what he was going to do with it. Perhaps one of the many commercial fishing boats in Alaska could use it as an anchor !!


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## roaring fire (Jan 4, 2011)

EP
Sorry about your boilover, but I find it unbelieveable you would replace
your boiler because of user error.
My mother used to say " Fools & their money soon part"
BACKUP BATTERY is a simple fix.


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## Akgasser (Jan 4, 2011)

Yup. wish I'd known about the APC 1500


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## Akgasser (Jan 4, 2011)

i just bought the Seton for about $9k + install. I'll sell it for $7500 obo. That will include new gauge/fittings/taco pump/PRV's installed


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## Akgasser (Jan 4, 2011)

I've had nothing but issues with this boiler since I installed it. After the overheat, it will need several hundred $$ worth of parts and the fiberglass insulation in the skin is full of moisture and creosote. I feel like anything I do to increase the Setons performance is like polishing a turd. If homeowners will cover the boiler, I'm going with something that works.


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## 2.beans (Jan 4, 2011)

id use the money to buy a generator and parts to get the polished turd up and running again. someday you might be happy with it. i do think there are way better boilers out there, but id get my money out of the one you got first. call fred, he might be able to sell it for you for more, seeing how its now 200% efficient. that would be around 18k. if he does ill sell mine too.


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## RobC (Jan 4, 2011)

Tarm 60 with 1000 gallons of pressurized storage is a nice match. Your square footage is bigger than mine and your probably colder. If you had the room for 2000 gallons storage the 60 would handle that OK too.
There is a bit more to the equation of heat load / boiler / storage relationship than the above.


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## Akgasser (Jan 4, 2011)

Can you run the Tarm 60 without storage or with just the 130 gal?


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## heaterman (Jan 4, 2011)

If you have a place for it, a Garn would be tough to beat for your situation. 

A low temp system such as you have will not bother a Garn in the least. You would be able to run water temps all the way down to the 110-120* range without damage to the unit or creosote problems. A normal gasification boiler has to be kept above 150* or you may have some issues.  

Another thing that comes to mind right off the bat is that a power failure or loss of circulation in mid burn will have no ill effects on a Garn. That's one of the big advantages of having your firebox and heat exchanger completely surrounded by water.


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## pybyr (Jan 4, 2011)

heaterman said:
			
		

> If you have a place for it, a Garn would be tough to beat for your situation.
> 
> A low temp system such as you have will not bother a Garn in the least. You would be able to run water temps all the way down to the 110-120* range without damage to the unit or creosote problems. A normal gasification boiler has to be kept above 150* or you may have some issues.
> 
> Another thing that comes to mind right off the bat is that a power failure or loss of circulation in mid burn will have no ill effects on a Garn. That's one of the big advantages of having your firebox and heat exchanger completely surrounded by water.



If I were starting afresh and had the physical space for a Garn, it'd be my choice, too.  Remarkable combination of simplicity, efficiency, and ease of use.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Jan 4, 2011)

Froling or Garn would be my top 2 choices. There are other good ones, its just that these seem to be as troublesome as an anvil, Randy


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## bpirger (Jan 4, 2011)

I just installed my Garn 1500.  I see you say not so much thinking that way...but I guess I'd ask why.  If you need only cool water, that is ideal.  No worries about power outage...you're not going to overheat.  Very simple.  Yeah, it might not the the epitome of efficiency....but it seems like it might be as close to the epitome of simplicity.  I'm happy, my wife is happy, and I've never spent more on any single subsystem in my life!

If you haven't looked carefully through past threads, you may wish to.  Take a look at the thread recently about "a day in the life of a gasser owner"...or similar.  For the Garn, you load and fire, maybe reload, maybe a third time,  (with an hour between loads or so) and your done for 24 hours.  Time spent loading....about 60 seconds each time.   Starting the fire might be 3-4 minutes....though there's usually enough coals to get it going again.


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## RobC (Jan 4, 2011)

The Tarm Solo60 can be run with out storage. But with storage you can run year round. I bought the Solo and added storage the second winter. Split up costs and time.
Not really sure what 130 gallons would get you.
Try emailing Tarm USA their real helpful and have different options, including Froling


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Jan 4, 2011)

Power outages and wood boilers don't work well together. I've gone powerless a few times, and it sucks :shut:  Heaterman says the Garn can handle power outages, but what about the rest of the house? If you need a generator to run circulator pumps, then buy the Genny and get the hydronic you want, not the one that handles power outages the best.

You know me, if someone handed me back my investment in the GreenWood I would have this awesome boiler!


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## Singed Eyebrows (Jan 4, 2011)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> Power outages and wood boilers don't work well together. I've gone powerless a few times, and it sucks :shut:  Heaterman says the Garn can handle power outages, but what about the rest of the house? If you need a generator to run circulator pumps, then buy the Genny and get the hydronic you want, not the one that handles power outages the best.
> 
> You know me, if someone handed me back my investment in the GreenWood I would have this awesome boiler!


 That looks like a step or 2 above my Atmos, lol. How in the heck can they get that up to operating temp or combustion temp. in 3 minutes?


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## Como (Jan 4, 2011)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> Power outages and wood boilers don't work well together. I've gone powerless a few times, and it sucks :shut:  Heaterman says the Garn can handle power outages, but what about the rest of the house? If you need a generator to run circulator pumps, then buy the Genny and get the hydronic you want, not the one that handles power outages the best.
> 
> You know me, if someone handed me back my investment in the GreenWood I would have this awesome boiler!



Are they available yet in the US, and how much. I have a feeling they will cost a bit more.


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## sparke (Jan 4, 2011)

To be honest this melt down issue is your own fault.  What do you think would happen to a top of the line Froling or any other unit with out power loss protection.  I agree the Seton is not worth $$ and I also agree other typical gasifiers are probably more efficient, I TOTALLY disagree with the unit being a piece of trash.  Yes I am a bit biased because I own this style boiler (Greenfire).  I can honestly say overall I am happy with it.  It is my third wood boiler.  I used to have smoke dragons - Memco, Buderous.  All 3 give me plenty of heat but ONLY the Greenfire is even close to efficient.  I dare say I have cut my wood consumption in half.  The exception may be Adobe which used sub par materials and may very well be a piece of trash.

I think 90% of people that have issues with these units = 1. Bad install  2. Operator error.  You will find many happy owners of these style units.  

If you can get your money out of selling the boiler, I am sure it would be worth changing units because you hate yours so much.

But if you take a severe $$ loss,  I think it would be a mistake to change units.  These units work well both with storage and with out.  I run mine both ways.  Since you have a low temp application 130 gallons hot water storage is not even close to sufficient...


Also, the Kaowool or mineral wool insulation does not need to be replaced because it got wet.  This type insulation will dry out and not lose any r-value. Not sure about the high temp ceramic (white stuff).  I suspect it will be fine once it dries also...


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## snowman49820 (Jan 4, 2011)

I'm looking at one of these. Any thoughts?
http://www.theinverterstore.com/the-inverter-store-product.php?model=pwr3axfer30-front-large#


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## Fred61 (Jan 4, 2011)

snowman49820 said:
			
		

> I'm looking at one of these. Any thoughts?
> http://www.theinverterstore.com/the-inverter-store-product.php?model=pwr3axfer30-front-large#



Why would you want a transfer switch? Do you have some other source of power or have you mistakenly identified this unit as a inverter?

This is the unit that I purchased:
http://www.theinverterstore.com/the-inverter-store-product.php?model=pwric150012s


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## heaterman (Jan 5, 2011)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> Power outages and wood boilers don't work well together. I've gone powerless a few times, and it sucks :shut:  Heaterman says the Garn can handle power outages, but what about the rest of the house? If you need a generator to run circulator pumps, then buy the Genny and get the hydronic you want, not the one that handles power outages the best.
> 
> You know me, if someone handed me back my investment in the GreenWood I would have this awesome boiler!



2012.  Patience my good man. Patience  Supposedly we will have availability of the entire Viessmann wood burning line.


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## snowman49820 (Jan 5, 2011)

Fred61 said:
			
		

> snowman49820 said:
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I might not always be there to start the generator. The last time I lost power it was for two days.


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## flyingcow (Jan 5, 2011)

good Luck with your decision EP. Have you got any #'s on heat load? or heat load calc? This might shed some more info on what you want to buy. From what I know, the Tarm solo 60 can be run w/out storage. The Froling can not or can the Innova(which is what I have)These have to have storage. If you decide you want storage, the price of a Garn is = to a good gasser w/storage. Thats figuring on buying your storage system ready to go.


Just curious, how much wood you burn in a year?


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Jan 5, 2011)

heaterman said:
			
		

> 2012.  Patience my good man. Patience  Supposedly we will have availability of the entire Viessmann wood burning line.



I'm savin up!

No more fancy $5 coffees :blank: 
No more Sheenesque nights :shut:


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## Fred61 (Jan 5, 2011)

snowman49820 said:
			
		

> Fred61 said:
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But the unit you highlighted doesn't make any power! It's a transfer switch!


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## Akgasser (Jan 14, 2011)

Thanks for all the replies guys. I didn't know what I was doing when we first installed the boiler and I'm still trying to figure out the best course of action. It's gong to cost me about $1k to get the seton back up and running. I'm gonna need a bailout pretty soon. Why didn't Fred Seton mention to me that I should have a system in place to protect during a power outage. I remember him mentioning that the damper Door would automatically close if power was cut off. 

What should I do at this point? Fix the seton and add storage? How much storage do I need?


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## pybyr (Jan 14, 2011)

I've never dealt with the Seton, but here is my impression of the design gleaned from others' reports:

The basic design, if built with quality materials [which some of the 'Seton design cousins' were definitely not] is OK.  Not great, but not poor.  Better than some of the older wood boilers which were just a firebox surrounded by water, but not as good as some of the newer firetube gasification-type boilers.

In your case, the biggest factor is: you already own it.  

The money you spent so far is already sunk, and if it's in a state that you need to sink money into it to make it work, I am guessing you won't do well selling it without re-furbing it.  

Once you re-furb it (and is it really $1k- they don't sound that complex to work on), then you might as well try to put it into use to try to recoup your investment, given that any of the other options are likely to cost a minimum of $5k- and perhaps a good bit more.

Sizing storage is a matter of ascertaining your BTU heat load for your end uses, then your maximum temperature for your chosen storage type (pressurized or not; if unpressurized, you're limited by tank liner temp limits and/ or plain old boil-over), and your minimum useful temperature in supplying the heat load (radiant floor can use low temperature water, fin-tube baseboards or air-water heat exchangers need rather high temperature water).  Raising one gallon of water one degree F takes 8.34 BTU, and, accordingly, one gallon can give you back 8.34 BTU when you pull it down one degree by transferring heat back out.

Do some math with all of that, and also the desired times you want to be able to have between burns, and you'll start to get the picture.  At the same time, if the heat load is not much lower than your boiler output for a large portion of your heating season, storage will be of limited use, as you can't store BTUs that you can't spare from immediate and ongoing heat load needs.


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## Akgasser (Jan 14, 2011)

Just talked to my plumber. Replacement pumps, pressure tank, aquastats, gauge, PRV/TRV's and 2 hrs labor =$723. At least the silicone door seals I made held up. 

It sounds like the Garn would be an awesome upgrade, but at around $15k + install it's out of my range. I will prob fire the Seton back up for the time being, hopefully without any unknown problems appearing, and look for a good deal on a TARM 60. 

I'll sell the Bock I currently have and install a regular Well-Mcclain oil boiler or the like. That Bock runs almost nonstop and eats around $800 of fuel oil a month.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Jan 14, 2011)

That Tarm 60 sounds like a good plan, Randy


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## Akgasser (Oct 20, 2011)

Just to update anybody who stumbles accross this thread...i sold the bock for $1500 and installed a toyo om-180 which works great and burns about half the oil the bock was using. I refurbed the seton and added a custom made sheetmetal smoke hood with a 1575 cfm flopro fan from Amazon to catch all the smoke and ash during loading and cleaning. im adding an 820 gal storage system with HX from American Solartechnics which is going to run me about $5k shipped after its all said and done. would love a Garn, but theyre $18k now before install/insulation/framing etc so at this point it makes more sense to add storage to the Seton and run the thing. Ive learned a lot over the past year and have gleaned valuable info from this site and its members so thanks guys!


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## Gasifier (Oct 20, 2011)

Just to update anybody who stumbles accross this threadâ€¦i sold the bock for $1500 and installed a toyo om-180 which works great and burns about half the oil the bock was using. I refurbed the seton and added a custom made sheetmetal smoke hood with a 1575 cfm flopro fan from Amazon to catch all the smoke and ash during loading and cleaning. im adding an 820 gal storage system with HX from American Solartechnics which is going to run me about $5k shipped after its all said and done. would love a Garn, but theyre $18k now before install/insulation/framing etc so at this point it makes more sense to add storage to the Seton and run the thing. Ive learned a lot over the past year and have gleaned valuable info from this site and its members so thanks guys!

I just stumbled across this thread. What did you do to prevent a meltdown from happening again? Glad to see you are up and running again. The Toyo sounds like it is a nice one.


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