# Electricity Rates



## Parallax

Was just looking at my electric bill, comparing what we paid per month last year (before the wood stove went in, when we were trying to heat the place with space heaters because the propane needed for the radiant system was even worse). Last winter, we were paying between $200 and $300 in the dead of winter. This year, we're paying less than $25 for electricity. Don't know yet how many cords we'll burn but I'm guessing 3 to 4.  

This is in Washington state, where electricity is cheap. Can't even imagine what it would cost in parts of the country where electricity is dear. We have a monthly base charge of $7.87. Then the per KWH rate is 9.2103 cents but there are credits. When those are factored in, it's 7.756 cents per KWH. If one goes over a certain usage the rate jumps up. Don't remember if we were hitting that higher rate last winter or what that rate was. 

It struck me that, as much as we're saving with wood, the savings would be even more profound elsewhere. I'm wondering what others have saved by switching from wood to electric (and where).


----------



## begreen

Your average rate is great. We are more like $40/mo summer average in an all electric house and $90/mo winter. We have an electric car charging and electric heat pump that will occasionally kick in. Actually in October we have only used the heat pump. In winter there are many hours more lighting needed, hot water heater has to heat up colder water, the dryer needs to be used instead of clothesline, etc. FWIW, we had a particularly cold spell last December and had a spike then too. I have a small shop heater and greenhouse heater + dehumidifier in there so that adds up. 

But compared to a decade ago when the house was leakier and had a propane furnace we are saving thousands a year in heating costs.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

I pay 21.0 cents per KW, plus delivery charge around $30, line fees and a few other charges. We pay on average $180.00 a month. Hpwh, wood heat, gas stove, gas dryer. Only electric is lights, fridge, freezer, tv, computer, water pump, and microwave. All lights are cheap flouro. I swear the electric co is stealing from me, I've been saying this for 20 yrs.


----------



## Parallax

Begreen, I have a propane instant hot water heater and the stove is propane too. We seem to go through around 50 gallons of propane every 3 months. Not bad. On top of that we have electric and wood for the stove. 

Dan -- Wow, that's really high. What part of the country? Here, we pay through the nose for water. Even though it rains all the time. I think much of it is for water treatment. Probably $100 a month.


----------



## BrotherBart

All in ours comes out to $0.126 per KWH. Don't know what we are saving since we started heating the place with wood in 1985, the year the house was built.

Base load is around $75 a month with no heating or cooling in an all electric house with well pump.


----------



## johnny1720

I use a geothermal heat pump, electric dryer, range, well pump.  I finish my hot water with a tankless propane. 

I pay about $250 per month, however this will go down next spring.  I started on the budget plan last year after electric went up to .20 a KwHand I used 3000 KwHs in one month.  

I locked into a lower supply charge last month so my monthly cost is now about .11 cents a KwH.


----------



## Wildo

$0.22 total s&d where I am, got a new bill today  YAY!


----------



## newburner

$0.264 per kWh here. I pay just over $400/mo.


----------



## Highbeam

We are in the wet side of WA as well on PSE power. All in it is 10 cents per kwh. I got my bill yesterday for 48$ which is all electric water heat, dryer, lights, stove, etc. we have no propane. When you do the math propane is more expensive per btu than electric resistance here in the NW and has been for many years.

Soon, like this week, we will energize the hot tub and double our bill. That bugger eats a healthy 15-20 kwh per day for 8-9 months per year.


----------



## Maul4life

We are currently paying .286 / kwh.  The previous owners electric bill, averaged over the cold 6 months, was $1200/mo.  They were an elderly couple and NEVER used their woodstove.  They installed an Osburn 1600 in 1984 (when power was much cheaper) and only had 3 fires in the thing.  I moved in and immediately started woodburning.  With the Osburn, we took our monthly average to below $300...no electric heat.  We still have electric cooking, water heater, lights...etc.  Natural gas is not currently an option in Fairbanks.  Just installed a BK Chinook 30 through a "ChangeOut Program" through the borough.  Basically, the entire cost of the stove is paid for.  I have had this stove for about 2 weeks and am really happy so far.  Burned 5 cord last year, looking like we will burn a cord less...and have to start much fewer fires.  Enjoy those low electric rates.


----------



## Parallax

Looks like my rate is pretty darn good at 7 3/4 cents per KWH. Still, I'm glad we're heating with wood. Way less expensive than electricity. Last winter, running four space heaters, the place was barely warm and we were spending at least $200 a month.


----------



## johnnh

My electricity is ~ 17 cents per KWh.  I'm grappling with my next move:  I have a 20 year old 40 gallon DHW oil fired tank.  I believe it's sucking a lot of oil now.  I installed the pellet stove, so no oil for heat.  I was just going to install an electric 80 gallon tank and call it a life.  Now i don't know what to do with oil prices falling.


----------



## Doug MacIVER

if you have to change, from reading here I'd go hphw. if  your like my system, usage is about .55-.75 gal a day during the summer. still $50-60/mo. people here talking hphw about $8-12/mo. have a day  my mass rate last month w/delivery just over $.16/kw. closer to $.20+/kw next month


----------



## Highbeam

Parallax said:


> Looks like my rate is pretty darn good at 7 3/4 cents per KWH. Still, I'm glad we're heating with wood. Way less expensive than electricity. Last winter, running four space heaters, the place was barely warm and we were spending at least $200 a month.


 
I'm sure your power is cheap but it is not 7.75 cents per kwh. There is a lot of smoke and mirrors on your bill and the only way to compare is by dividing your total bill by the total kwh used. Anything else is like burning face cords, you're fooling yourself. In addition to the base charges, distribution, etc. the raw per kwh rate is usually variable depending on consumption. All in, I actually payed less than 10 cents per kwh this cycle but on average it is 10.

With cheap electricity we are spoiled here in the NW. We are also spoiled with cheap pellet fuel (still way under 200$ per ton) and cheap NG if you can get it. Plenty of water and no income tax either. There are some good things for sure.


----------



## Parallax

No income tax but, for those of us who are self employed, the B&O tax makes up for it. Plenty of water but really expensive water, which had me scratching my head for a time. Electricity's cheap and there are deals on wood. Natural gas is cheap if you can get it. There are no lines where I'm at so it's propane (which isn't cheap at all).


----------



## WiscWoody

My electric is cheap compared to some even though I think it's high compared to the Minneapolis/St. Paul area that I lived in for most of my life. The charge for hook up is $11.25 but I don't use much power myself... Around 250 KWH a month. One bill I have here for 242 KW is $43.62 and a whole year for electric costs around $520. I buy propane in the summer for $1.45 as of this fill and wood is free for the stove as I scrounge it here in a hardwood forest easily. My house is 3200 sq ft. and It gets dang cold up here too!

PS. Water is from my private well. I don't get a water bill but it cost me $6500 to have it drilled and another $3000 for a tank. I have the most efficient dual flush toilets made plus grey water goes out the side and get pumped once a year for $140.


----------



## Highbeam

Parallax said:


> Plenty of water but really expensive water, which had me scratching my head for a time.


 
Correction, your water is expensive. Mine is almost free, the water I sell is ridiculously cheap too. There are a few rabid purveyors out there but the bulk of us have a nearly endless supply of very cheap and very good water.


----------



## Parallax

Much of our cost comes from the septic portion of the bill. Too many people living in the watershed for the reservoir that serves Bellingham. For years, big storms would cause the sewers to overflow and raw sewerage would pour directly into the lake. They rebuilt the sewers a few years back and we're paying the price. I'm not convinced our water district is well managed so that's an issue too. But it is what it is and I love living here. There are miles of woods behind my home that can't be developed or logged precisely because we're in a watershed. So I view the cost of water/sewer as the price I pay for seclusion.


----------



## Laurent Cyr

We pay 0,0557 here in Québec.  When I bought the house in 2006, we were paying over $3,000 in electricity per year (without the wood stove).  I`ve now brought it below the $2,000 mark.  Everything is electric in the house; stove, force air furnace, fridge, freezer, air conditioning.  No propane.  I pay $165 per month.  I wish solar was cheaper...or that I was handy on the electrical and mechanical side of things.  I`ve got a fast flowing Stream on the property, and I`m sure I could tap into hydro-electric power from that fast flowing water.


----------



## Parallax

Laurent Cyr said:


> We pay 0,0557 here in Québec.  When I bought the house in 2006, we were paying over $3,000 in electricity per year (without the wood stove).  I`ve now brought it below the $2,000 mark.  Everything is electric in the house; stove, force air furnace, fridge, freezer, air conditioning.  No propane.  I pay $165 per month.  I wish solar was cheaper...or that I was handy on the electrical and mechanical side of things.  I`ve got a fast flowing Stream on the property, and I`m sure I could tap into hydro-electric power from that fast flowing water.


I'm guessing the permit requirements are strict for something like that.


----------



## Laurent Cyr

Parallax said:


> I'm guessing the permit requirements are strict for something like that.


Maybe.  Hadn`t thought about it.  I`ve seen some models the size of a washing machine.


----------



## Laszlo

Our total cost averages to 13.09 cents per kWh. Month-to-month it varies from 12.5 to 15 cents, depending on usage. We're halfway through a 3-year term, locked-in rate of 8.28 cents/kWh for 100% wind power generation. The rest is transmission charges, and PECO levies a $8.88 monthly fee for our two meters.

All-electric house, including hot water, well pump, and air-source heat pump. January and February bills can top $400 without wood heat, but when we provision enough fuel for the stove, those bills can be halved.


----------



## Doug MacIVER

let's see , as of this morning Nasty Grid has increased the cost of a kw to $.1627 from $.08277 to Mass. customers.. add delivery and we are now over $.24/kw. got a feeling a lot of folks are in for a real shock when their Dec. bill shows up. in the mean time enjoy your rainy day here in the northeast.

PS, good thing that oil crashed this year for those of us that fully or partially heat w/it. I'm currently @ $.80/gal lower than my 2014 average. probably means a breakeven for this household. for those with gas, they'll be getting the double whammy this year.


----------



## Swedishchef

I am loving the electricity rates in Quebec. I pay $90/month. My entire house is wired for electric heating. My stove is located in the basement so my upstairs is primarily heated with electricity. 

Andrew


----------



## Doug MacIVER

Swedishchef said:


> I am loving the electricity rates in Quebec. I pay $90/month. My entire house is wired for electric heating. My stove is located in the basement so my upstairs is primarily heated with electricity.
> 
> Andrew


how's your early start with the white stuff this am. 1 am model has Plymouth county getting a huge surprise for a few hours

got to love Que. hydro, have a day


----------



## Swedishchef

Hey Doug.

It just started snowing but it has been blowing for about 12 hours.  It's gonna be a mess tomorrow....a  big mess to clean up. The worse part is that I ordered my son's snowsuit and it hasn't arrived yet 
Today
Snow at times heavy. Amount 15 to 25 cm. Wind becoming northeast 20 km/h gusting to 40 this morning then increasing to 40 gusting to 70 except gusting to 90 near the coast this afternoon. Temperature steady near plus 1.

Tonight
Snow mixed with ice pellets changing to rain after midnight. Snow and ice pellet amount 10 to 15 cm. Wind northeast 60 km/h gusting to 100 becoming northwest 40 gusting to 70 near midnight. Temperature steady near zero.

Yup, our electricity rates are great. And 96% of the electricity generated by Hydro Quebec is via hydroelectric dams.

I do not know how some of you can pay power bills...at $0.20 I'd be hard pressed to ever turn on a light!

ANdrew


----------



## Doug MacIVER

Swedishchef said:


> Hey Doug.
> 
> It just started snowing but it has been blowing for about 12 hours.  It's gonna be a mess tomorrow....a  big mess to clean up. The worse part is that I ordered my son's snowsuit and it hasn't arrived yet
> Today
> Snow at times heavy. Amount 15 to 25 cm. Wind becoming northeast 20 km/h gusting to 40 this morning then increasing to 40 gusting to 70 except gusting to 90 near the coast this afternoon. Temperature steady near plus 1.
> 
> Tonight
> Snow mixed with ice pellets changing to rain after midnight. Snow and ice pellet amount 10 to 15 cm. Wind northeast 60 km/h gusting to 100 becoming northwest 40 gusting to 70 near midnight. Temperature steady near zero.
> 
> Yup, our electricity rates are great. And 96% of the electricity generated by Hydro Quebec is via hydroelectric dams.
> 
> I do not know how some of you can pay power bills...at $0.20 I'd be hard pressed to ever turn on a light!
> 
> ANdrew


 
even the wife turned off her led light and replaced it with a jar candle.

got a little slush but burning way too much for Nov 2.

have a great Sunday, go pats


----------



## Maul4life

Send some snow up to us...we could use some good ground cover.  We have almost nothing... And now it is in the single digits at night...


----------



## BoilerMan

7-10" here with about 3 on the ground now.  Ground is not at all frozen yet, just going to make a mess.  

On topic:  Our rate here in N. Maine is up to 0.16 now it was 0.115 for a couple of years down from 0.17 in years past.  

People are putting mini-splits faster than they can ship them up here, I've personally installed over 30 this year.  Going to be a big surprise when the electric rates climb.  Back in 2000 most would have laughed at someone that said gasoline would be near $4/gal in 10 years............  Burn wood!  It grows on trees!

TS


----------



## Laurent Cyr

Swedishchef said:


> I am loving the electricity rates in Quebec. I pay $90/month. My entire house is wired for electric heating. My stove is located in the basement so my upstairs is primarily heated with electricity.
> 
> Andrew


Geez Andrew!  How can you keep your bill at $90 per month.  It took me everything I had to lower it to $169  I guess you don`t have air conditioning.
At what temp do you keep the house in the winter?


----------



## Brian26

Be glad you don't live in CT. I believe we have the 2nd or 3rd highest rates behind Hawaii and Alaska.

$50 just in delivery charges for around 500 kwhs. Thats not even the cost of the actual power.  CT light and power has submitted to the state a proposal to double these charges. 

All told we pay around .25-.28 a KWH total cost.


----------



## BoilerMan

Holy smoke and mirrors Batman........

TS


----------



## Swedishchef

Brian26 said:


> Be glad you don't live in CT. I believe we have the 2nd or 3rd highest rates behind Hawaii and Alaska.
> $50 just in delivery charges for around 500 kwhs. Thats not even the cost of the actual power. CT light and power has submitted to the state a proposal to double these charges.
> All told we pay around .25-.28 a KWH total cost.



O M G. That is unreal I'd be using candles for light, body heat for warmth and gin to pass the days.

A


----------



## Swedishchef

Laurent Cyr said:


> Geez Andrew! How can you keep your bill at $90 per month. It took me everything I had to lower it to $169 I guess you don`t have air conditioning.
> At what temp do you keep the house in the winter?



Ooops I lied: last winter was colder and my monthly is $110. It used to be $90.

I am guessing the fact that I have a new air tight house, relatively small (1275 sq ft) and my basement is R22 (R10 spray foam + R12 Roxul and spray foamed rimjoists) from top to bottom have a lot to do with it. I do burn 2.5-3 cords of wood a year. My power bill killer is: 1- hot water tank (we have 2 kids so there's a total of 2-3 showers/baths daily), 2- Christmas lights: sounds silly but I have about 6000 watts of lights for 2-3 weeks a year and I leave them on 14-18 hours a day (no I don't like LED lights, I don't find the lighting is the same) and 3- the dryer: we do 6-7 loads of laundry a week.

Andrew


----------



## BIGDADDY

i have geothermal and my electric rate is 
0.07190 average bill is 200 a month for 2400 sf house.


----------



## Swedishchef

BIGDADDY said:


> i have geothermal and my electric rate is
> 0.07190 average bill is 200 a month for 2400 sf house.


You distribution charges must be quite high. 2400 sq ft is a big house.

What's the ROI (return on investment) like with the geothermal?

Andrew


----------



## BIGDADDY

Swedishchef said:


> You distribution charges must be quite high. 2400 sq ft is a big house.
> 
> What's the ROI (return on investment) like with the geothermal?
> 
> Andrew



3-4 years in my case.


----------



## Swedishchef

That is not bad at all.
What was the initial setup cost, if you don't mind me asking?


----------



## Treacherous

My kWh at cabin is $0.07756 with Puget Sound Energy

The following credits are in effect:

Energy Exchange Credit 
Power Cost Adjustment
Merger Credit
Federal Wind Power Credit 
Renewable Energy Credit


----------



## WiscWoody

I dont know about the Swede but its been down in the teens up here the past few nights and the lake has a thin layer of ice on it now, But I was running daily fires 6 weeks ago so no surprice there i guess! I too am starting to like my electric bills much more so the days after nearing what some on here pay... My 12 month toat is around $550 for some time now but i burn another $500 in LP on top of that and a three cord of scrounge wood in a house thats 3200 square and has a twenty foot cathedral to boot.


----------



## Treacherous

Swedishchef said:


> Yup, our electricity rates are great. And 96% of the electricity generated by Hydro Quebec is via hydroelectric dams.
> 
> 
> ANdrew



What do you pay for electric?  We have a lot of hydroelectric dams in WA state as well.


----------



## Treacherous

The county my cabin is in has hundreds of wind turbines.  It is a good fit as it is very windy here year round.

This is one of the wind farms that has a good tour if you are in the area.

https://pse.com/inyourcommunity/kittitas/Pages/Wild-Horse.aspx

EDIT:  A free charging station if you have a plug in electric or hybrid.


----------



## Swedishchef

Treacherous said:


> What do you pay for electric?  We have a lot of hydroelectric dams in WA state as well.


First 30 kWh per day: $0,0557
Remaining consumption: $0,0826

And that is before tax and delivery fee. If you include those charges, my last bill was $0.0805/kWh.

The billing method is kinda odd though: they give the bill every 2 months (and not every month).

Where I live is THE MECCA of wind turbine technology. We actually have a windmill blade plant here (LM Glassfiber). THey make blades up to 52 meters long. Lots of wind parks but there's lots of controversy over windmill farms: the farms cost on average 11-12 cents/kWh to build (the infrastructure required, building of the park, roads, connect to grid, etc). But our utility company sells that electricity to the US for $0,08-$0.09/kWh. SO it creates jobs but is not self sustaining (independantly). 

SO when the wind blows, they turn down the flow of all our hydro dams. 

Andrew


----------



## Treacherous

Swedishchef said:


> First 30 kWh per day: $0,0557
> Remaining consumption: $0,0826
> 
> And that is before tax and delivery fee. If you include those charges, my last bill was $0.0805/kWh.
> 
> The billing method is kinda odd though: they give the bill every 2 months (and not every month).
> 
> Where I live is THE MECCA of wind turbine technology. We actually have a windmill blade plant here (LM Glassfiber). THey make blades up to 52 meters long. Lots of wind parks but there's lots of controversy over windmill farms: the farms cost on average 11-12 cents/kWh to build (the infrastructure required, building of the park, roads, connect to grid, etc). But our utility company sells that electricity to the US for $0,08-$0.09/kWh. SO it creates jobs but is not self sustaining (independantly).
> 
> SO when the wind blows, they turn down the flow of all our hydro dams.
> 
> Andrew




It sounds like equivalent of your area here in the states where I am.

AFAIK rate is static at rate I originally posted.  There is also talk of creating the largest photovoltaic (PV) solar park in the U.S about 3 miles as the crow flies from cabin.  Not sure if that will come to fruition though.


----------



## WiscWoody

Their billing at higher rate for higher use encourages conservation and helps them by not having to build a pricey base load station. I only use 270 KWh a month on average so i'd be liking those low rates no doubt!


----------



## Doug MacIVER

Mother nature kicking up her heels. video from my brother  at Nauset yesterday


----------



## Doug MacIVER

Swedishchef said:


> First 30 kWh per day: $0,0557
> Remaining consumption: $0,0826
> 
> And that is before tax and delivery fee. If you include those charges, my last bill was $0.0805/kWh.
> 
> The billing method is kinda odd though: they give the bill every 2 months (and not every month).
> 
> Where I live is THE MECCA of wind turbine technology. We actually have a windmill blade plant here (LM Glassfiber). THey make blades up to 52 meters long. Lots of wind parks but there's lots of controversy over windmill farms: the farms cost on average 11-12 cents/kWh to build (the infrastructure required, building of the park, roads, connect to grid, etc). But our utility company sells that electricity to the US for $0,08-$0.09/kWh. SO it creates jobs but is not self sustaining (independantly).
> 
> SO when the wind blows, they turn down the flow of all our hydro dams.
> 
> Andrew


 God do I hate seeing taxes on something you have got to have???????? love it that even in Mass. they do not tax firewood, electric, gas and oil.


----------



## Swedishchef

Doug MacIVER said:


> God do I hate seeing taxes on something you have got to have???????? love it that even in Mass. they do not tax firewood, electric, gas and oil.


Ha ha. Agreed. And the way taxes are calculated, in Quebec, they add the Goods and Services tax (Federal), take that total and THEN add the provincial sales tax. Taxing the tax. Yahooo


----------



## DBoon

Brian26 said:


> $50 just in delivery charges for around 500 kwhs. Thats not even the cost of the actual power.


Hi Brian26 - I'm not disputing that CT has some ridiculous electricity prices (with really piss poor utility service, to boot)....but take a look at your bill again.  It looks like you pay about 16.75 cents/kWh (variable rate) with a fixed rate charge of $16/month regardless of quantity used.  I wouldn't call that 25 to 28 cents/kWh since the marginal rate you will pay for the 490th kWh that you use is 16.75 cents.


----------



## Brian26

I think I am going to look into investing 25k into solar. My neighbor has them and the way our house is situated it gets almost direct sun. Brand new roof, southern exposure full sun almost all day.

Dboon- 16.75 kwh I wish. I took my total kwh divided by my monthly bill. Soon we will be paying even higher. Its not the cost for KWH. Its the delivery charges.

Looks like a massive increase is coming... They are raising both the actual electrical cost and delivery charges.

http://www.hartfordbusiness.com/article/20141107/NEWS01/141109942

Current Rate: $.0996
PROPOSED Rate: $.1245


Customer service charge going from $16.00 to $25.50 *Increase of 59%*

Distribution charge per KWH $0.02757 to $0.03183 *Increase of 15% *(You pay this for every Kilowatt you use.)

Reconnect at Meter same day $35 to $100.96 *Increase of 188%*

Reconnect at pole residential $60.00 to $183.61 *Increase of 206%*

I ran some numbers and if these go through. My bill will be* 31% higher*


----------



## DBoon

Hi Brian26, keep in mind that if you get solar panels, you will still pay the monthly charge even if you get 100% of your electricity each month from solar.  Having said that, solar panels at 16-20 cents/kWh is still a pretty good investment.


----------



## earl764

Brian,

I'm in the UI covered part of the state.

Below is a bill from last month when we were still using AC. Looks like I'm already at/beyond some of the rates CL&P is proposing.





244.24 total. The distribution charges are murder.


----------



## Doug MacIVER

earl764 said:


> Brian,
> 
> I'm in the UI covered part of the state.
> 
> Below is a bill from last month when we were still using AC. Looks like I'm already at/beyond some of the rates CL&P is proposing.
> 
> View attachment 145020
> 
> 
> 244.24 total. The distribution charges are murder.


Nastay grid emass charges for distrib just short of $.08. most of the difference are in the excess usage. Our last bill was down to one of our lowest kw used @ 485kw.


----------



## Doug MacIVER

let us hope for short run cold snaps this year. rumblings from one power supplier already? http://news.yahoo.com/biggest-u-pow...408.html?soc_src=mediacontentstory&soc_trk=tw


----------



## Laurent Cyr

Electric bills depend on a bunch of things....lol!


----------



## Swedishchef

Laurent Cyr said:


> Electric bills depend on a bunch of things....lol!
> 
> View attachment 145272


L O L!


----------



## jebatty

Two views, before and after the PV system. The bill for November 2013 is the first bill that would have reflected some PV (PV active with Oct 28), all following bills include full impact of PV.


----------



## zaroot86

Here in the Land of Marylandistan, the rates are surprisingly reasonable. With base charge, all the delivery fees, credits, and taxes factored in, we are at around $0.14 kwh. My house is 100% electric, with a new HE heat pump/range/microwave/HWH/Fridge/DW/space heaters/CFL Lighting; my fiance and I use around 700 kwh a month. Attic fully insulated, new windows, 2300 SF home. I keep the thermostat set around 60, and just wear heavier clothing/make her use a blanket. Between cooking and moderate space heater use for the room we're occupying, it's quite temperate all the time I think. Combined with the new Old Mill stove I set up in the basement, I am looking to drop the thermostat to 50 jic and run the fan for the forced air 24/7. I have a tower fan blowing behind the stove to the RA vent in the basement, which is circulating the warmer air via ductwork. Will the new stove dialed in, I am hoping to drop that down to about 450-500 kwh/Mo, or $70. This excludes months where I have large draws from my shop (welder/plasma cutter/power tools/battery chargers/etc., so if I am steady working out there every weekend, it'll easily add $40 to my bill; but at least I don't have a propane, gas, or heating oil bill to fret over. 

Backup generator
20 gallons of treated fuel
4 cords of oak


----------



## selenahill21

Thanks for that informative post! Electricity prices hike that's why bill goes up drastically. Some people may have realized that natural gas and other energy fuel costs have been trending down. They likewise may have realized that electricity charges, though, are up. It is because electricity prices are complicated and are set by numerous factors.


----------



## jebatty

Electric utility strategy in many places is or will be to raise the base rate which is not dependent on usage. The effect is to penalize users who lower usage through conservation or through PV. It also on a % basis will adversely affect the bulk of the users by number (households) and have minimal impact on large commercial/industrial users. Also the strategy is to assure the utility a profitable income stream and insulate it from a rapidly increasing sustainable energy supply environment. It would be far better IMO for the utility to focus on operating in the new energy environment.

Just got notice of another $2/mo increase in our base rate, and it was raised $2 just two years ago also. Our base rate still is quite low compared to other areas, $14/mo, but that's a 40% increase in just 2 years.


----------



## woodgeek

The other part of the strategy in many places will be to blame the base rate increases on all those solar installing folks 'free loading' on the grid.


----------



## Where2

woodgeek said:


> The other part of the strategy in many places will be to blame the base rate increases on all those solar installing folks 'free loading' on the grid.



 Rhetoric from the same grid owner that gives me a credit 6 months out of the year for allowing them to randomly disconnect my A/C compressor to shed base load (if they need to)... Ironic that in the 5+ years I've had the A/C disconnect installed, I don't recall the disconnect ever having activated. The up to $9/mo credit comes in handy though...  I should have had that disconnect system installed when I bought the house, it would have paid for 2 more PV panels & inverters!


----------



## woodgeek

Yeah, load shedding programs in the US are all a mess....apparently after a number of federal grants to install demand response equipment, some ambiguous wording was hit upon by a Fed circuit court that put the whole business in legal limbo.  Its going to the Supremes on the next cycle, IIRC.
I have demand response on my AC too, which switches it off for 30 mins out of every hour (as needed).  Of course, since my system is sized for heating in 20°F weather, my AC only needs to run about 40% of the time to maintain setpoint even in 100°F weather.  So the switch does nothing to the utility load or my temperature, but pays me $30-50/yr.


----------



## DBoon

Just in - a timely new article about coming winter electricity price hikes for those in New England. 
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/14/u...odule=Search&mabReward=relbias:w,{"1":"RI:8"}


----------



## woodgeek

As the article states...looks like a ng pipeline and transmission line problem, related to a combination of NIMBYs and utility co mismanagement.

I have read the pipes to PA were supposed to go on line in 2016-7.  Hope for warm winters until then.


----------



## Doug MacIVER

Figuring out how much new pipeline might be enough is not an easy calculation. Massachusetts, for one, is analyzing its needs now for a report due at the end of the month. It is a complex process, said Mark Sylvia, the state’s undersecretary for energy, because it must take into account the state’s desires to avoid dependence on one type of fuel, reduce greenhouse gas emissions and ensure reliability “so the lights stay on.”

last paragraph says it all to me "you can't bring in what you want or need without our(state ) ok." close coal plants before replacements ready, knee jerk reactions. I've been bitchin about these new rate since announced last Aug. once again most people a surprised . why? they don't pay attention until there bill arrives. aside, my business  less  able to compete than even 2 months ago, not many people raising prices in this environment.

first paragraph  last in the article


----------



## woodgeek

It would seem that you all (in MA) could just build some more ng storage to deal with some cold spells.  Are those big tanks in boston still there, or were they removed as a 'terrorist target' years ago?


----------



## Doug MacIVER

just not ready and no one gives a tihs, really well thought out. first real winter test coming around Christmas! if winter settles in from there some folks will be  in real trouble come next spring when they have to pay nasty grid and nsturd. at least they can't shut them off in winter. unless we brown out. the grid came close to shutdown last winter. this is a tougher situation for power than last year.

granted homes come first for gas, but we now import some much of our electricity and the winter spike in gas cost to electric makers is where the problem lies. shut down coal plants before your ready for, why. it is not only the power cos. fault it is also a political fault.


----------



## woodgeek

Wasn't it Romney that pushed those early closures?  Complete with press conferences in front?


----------



## Doug MacIVER

woodgeek said:


> Wasn't it Romney that pushed those early closures?  Complete with press conferences in front?


didn't I add political. who cares who


----------



## woodgeek

When some politicians are closing single plants as stunts, for short-term political gain, and others are putting together long-term plans (i.e. ones that don't cause energy havoc) and getting roasted for it, it does matter.  If you think shutting down coal plants is the root of current high energy prices in MA, then you should put the blame where it belongs.



As much as I like to poke fun at our future president, I think the NIMBYs up there are the bigger problem.


----------



## Doug MacIVER

ok, it's all Romney's fault, none of the blame fails to the 87.5% democrat  Mass Senate and 90 % Democrat house. When there is a Rep. Govna. up here more political power sits in Sen. Pres. or the House Speakas office. have no doubt he got something he wanted from it.


----------



## woodgeek

Doug MacIVER said:


> ok, it's all Romney's fault, none of the blame fails to the 87.5% democrat  Mass Senate and 90 % Democrat house. When there is a Rep. Govna. up here more political power sits in Sen. Pres. or the House Speakas office. have no doubt he got something he wanted from it.



Now we're talking....its all their faults and the mopes that voted for them!


----------



## Doug MacIVER

woodgeek said:


> Now we're talking....its all their faults and the mopes that voted for them!


if it has helped and is  part the reason Mass rates double. not the entire part. please,you know that as do I. the rush to close is part of the problem without having viable substitutes. politically expedient


----------



## woodgeek

Doug MacIVER said:


> if it has helped and is  part the reason Mass rates double. not the entire part. please,you know that as do I. the rush to close is part of the problem without having viable substitutes. politically expedient



Indeed.  NE is a hot mess in terms of its energy policy.  A well intentioned electorate is being taken advantage of by a ridiculous crew of politicians to force through ill-planned plant closures and ill-budgeted RE projects.  And reasonable things like enough plants and pipelines to serve actual projected demands, or profitable, low-risk onshore wind projects funded by private investments....nope, I suppose mostly due to NIMBYism.

Beyond New England....which will win?  The virtuous cycle of profitable RE and effective efficiency projects begetting more and more, or a vicious cycle of higher rates blamed on energy havoc, mal-investments counter to future regs/needs, underinvestment in needed infrastructure, boondoggle RE plants (Cape Wind, Ivanpah, etc)????


----------



## Doug MacIVER

woodgeek said:


> Indeed.  NE is a hot mess in terms of its energy policy.  A well intentioned electorate is being taken advantage of by a ridiculous crew of politicians to force through ill-planned plant closures and ill-budgeted RE projects.  And reasonable things like enough plants and pipelines to serve actual projected demands, or profitable, low-risk onshore wind projects funded by private investments....nope, I suppose mostly due to NIMBYism.
> 
> Beyond New England....which will win?  The virtuous cycle of profitable RE and effective efficiency projects begetting more and more, or a vicious cycle of higher rates blamed on energy havoc, mal-investments counter to future regs/needs, underinvestment in needed infrastructure, boondoggle RE plants (Cape Wind, Ivanpah, etc)????


 I honestly think it will settle out to a more moderate equilibrium. too much FF(gas) to leave it completely, as the pols say the investment in RE will be more a part of it,something else down the road will come into the mix.(ie fusion,hydrogen). don't forget Cape Wind is sort of IMBY (I would see  it everytime I got to the beach or market after leaving that porch to the left) , if not for the ridiculous subs I'd love the idea.


----------



## woodgeek

Right now its all state level action...some states are 'on fire' with RE projects (CA, Texas, Iowa), some (like MA) have great efficiency projects (MassSave and Mass EV incentives).  In others, anti-RE pols will block all progress.  

The EPA carbon plan is trying to coordinate state efforts/plans, while leaving the details to the states.  Some states are clearly going to opt out, by suing the EPA rather than implementing a CO2 reduction plan.

The future will be interesting.  In 10 years will states that opted out be seen as low cost of energy, business friendly paradises filled with great jobs and booming economies OR will they be seen as economic backwaters, with high carbon footprint energy sources that are not competitive economically due to customer demands for low-footprint manufactured goods, or expenses due to carbon taxes or FF usage fees.

We have a real 'laboratory of the states' situation shaping up.


----------



## woodgeek

So, its going to be 512° here by the end of the month?

And a few days of -15°C weather in Chicago hardly sounds like cold...they might not even break out their real coats.


----------



## Doug MacIVER

woodgeek said:


> So, its going to be 512° here by the end of the month?
> 
> And a few days of -15°C weather in Chicago hardly sounds like cold...they might not even break out their real coats.


there that should make it a bit warmer, have a day


----------



## Doug MacIVER

here is something to warm you up. from wsi,twitter . wsi says today will be a 10gw day


----------



## Doug MacIVER

reality of Nasty Grid winter rates hits. quick look at the numbers and  we unplugged  the electric space heaters in favor of oil.( just using it on one of 5 zones upstairs) our usage dropped 30% to 575kw.( not bad with the Christmas lts) bill slightly smaller than 2014. waiting for the Jan oil delivery to do a fair comparison. even with the drop in oil prices and electric usage, we are guessing our
 energy bills
 will be about the same as 2014.


----------



## Doug MacIVER

Nasty grid came out with the spring rates. reduced to just over $.09/ kwh. about $.01 higher than 2014. stopping the space heat worked out to be a plus. used about 3% less oil during a colder winter and 25-30% less electricity. ave. price of oil dropped about $1.20 this year to $2.35, thank you. feb 500/kw cost us $121.00 that will be down to somewhere near $90.00. have a day


----------



## begreen

An interesting perspective on electric rates
http://www.nationofchange.org/2015/...-pay-some-of-the-lowest-rates-in-the-country/


----------



## Parallax

Would love to see a number of utilities broken up and taken over by communities. There are many cities overseas that offer free wifi. There's no reason we shouldn't have it too. It's just our anti-government dogma that gets in the way. There are many things government can do well. Government can also be inefficient and corrupt. The fact that it can be inefficient and corrupt is not a reason to cut it out of the picture. We just have to be responsible for making sure our government agencies respond to citizen input.


----------



## Babaganoosh

Parallax said:


> Would love to see a number of utilities broken up and taken over by communities. There are many cities overseas that offer free wifi. There's no reason we shouldn't have it too. It's just our anti-government dogma that gets in the way. There are many things government can do well. Government can also be inefficient and corrupt. The fact that it can be inefficient and corrupt is not a reason to cut it out of the picture. We just have to be responsible for making sure our government agencies respond to citizen input.



It's nice to dream. There's anti government sentiment for a reason. For the most part it's warranted.


----------



## Parallax

I'd respond but I think it best not to get into a political discussion.


----------



## begreen

Parallax said:


> Would love to see a number of utilities broken up and taken over by communities. There are many cities overseas that offer free wifi. There's no reason we shouldn't have it too. It's just our anti-government dogma that gets in the way. There are many things government can do well. Government can also be inefficient and corrupt. The fact that it can be inefficient and corrupt is not a reason to cut it out of the picture. We just have to be responsible for making sure our government agencies respond to citizen input.


Check out Chattanooga Tenn. They did it in spite of opposition by Comcast  and others. They now have the fastest broadband network in the country. 
http://www.nationofchange.org/2015/...-pay-some-of-the-lowest-rates-in-the-country/


----------



## BIGDADDY

Parallax said:


> Would love to see a number of utilities broken up and taken over by communities. There are many cities overseas that offer free wifi. There's no reason we shouldn't have it too. It's just our anti-government dogma that gets in the way. There are many things government can do well. Government can also be inefficient and corrupt. The fact that it can be inefficient and corrupt is not a reason to cut it out of the picture. We just have to be responsible for making sure our government agencies respond to citizen input.



Panera Bread has free wifi. Well I guess they pay for it but free for the customers.
I guess some people want the government to run everything. Many present the idea that it's free if it comes from the government and it is if you Don't pay taxes.
I know as a tax paying US citizen I'd rather let people pay for their own internet or go without it. 
Who would ever suggest our government of being corrupt or inefficient?


----------



## BIGDADDY

begreen said:


> Check out Chattanooga Tenn. They did it in spite of opposition by Comcast  and others. They now have the fastest broadband network in the country.
> http://www.nationofchange.org/2015/...-pay-some-of-the-lowest-rates-in-the-country/



Doesn't look cheap to me.  
http://www.cornhusker-power.com/rates.asp


----------



## Parallax

There are often cost savings when things are done on a large scale. Medicare is an example of an efficient government program. It costs half as much to get someone health care through Medicare as through for-profit insurance coverage. There are a number of reasons. One is there's no need for anyone to profit. Second, the fact that it's a large program allows them to negotiate discounts that others cannot get. It would be even cheaper if the Congress didn't prevent Medicare from negotiating discounts with drug companies. That was an example of government stepping in to increase costs as a payoff to a special interest. The people who voted for that should be strung up. However, it's not as simple as blaming one party. The Republicans are mostly worse than the Democrats when it comes to those sweetheart deals.


----------



## Swedishchef

In my province, electricity rates are the cheapest in Canada. It is run by the state. However, they are still increasing the cost of electricity for consumers and make billions in profit. BUT, we are still the cheapest in the country so I won't complain.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/hydro-québec-s-2014-profit-surges-15-due-to-cold-weather-1.2973517


----------



## Doug MacIVER

gotta kick in  my thought. point I bring up is most likely only a Massachusetts problem. here there are a few cities and towns whom have their own electric,gas, even cable depts. they often offer better rates. can't say how well they service their utilities. as for the state running such an enterprise, it would probably fall right in line with our Turnpike Authority and MBTA, just to name two state agencies wrought with mismanagement, poor service, and waste.

that aside. Nasty Grids ceo being paid $1.3 mil is just a little excessive. even if his pay/customer really only amounts to a pee hole in the snow banks around here.


----------



## Parallax

Yeah, there's no magic bullet approach. Government can be corrupt and wasteful. Private corporations are greedy and self interested, focused only the needs of shareholders (and sometimes management). There was a time when many people thought in terms of having government and corporations stand in opposition, offsetting each other, checking each other's worst abuses. That was an idea that gained prominence in the "70s. Then Reagan and this notion that government is inherently bad and private enterprise is magically and inherently good. In my view, that's a warped view and we've been the worse off for it. And still, there's so much for which to be grateful. 

I know a guy who is both Danish and Polish. The Danes are typical Scandinavians living in their social-Democracy utopia, with high taxes but cradle to grave services, all of it delivered quite efficiently. The Poles emerged from the dysfunction of hard-core communism in the "90s, idolized Reagan and his ilk, and strive mightily to be like us. On my first trip to Poland, in the early 90s, people were so welcoming and friendly, generous beyond belief. Now they're so busy working two and three jobs to try to acquire homes and cars, they have no time for anything else. 

My friend spends part of his time in both countries. He likes Denmark as the place to educate himself and his children, retire comfortably and the like. He likes Poland as the place to strive to build wealth. Each approach has its advantages and disadvantages. 

I'd like to see an approach that incorporates the best of both. To me, a Canadian style medical delivery system is a no brainer. They deliver better health care than we receive for half the cost. I also think it makes sense to subsidize university tuition (but not the way we do it, which is wasteful and encourages bloated budgets -- more on that another time) and to create old-age pensions (since none of us know how long we'll live) that cover basic living expenses. At the same time, I think it's important to keep an eye on efficiency and make a place for private enterprise that doesn't regulate to the point of inefficiency. The Germans have done a really good of creating such a society. They have really strong unions, high wages, and their corporations are extremely profitable. They have a solid social safety net. The health care system isn't as good as the British or Canadian but far better than ours. 

No country is perfect. We can all learn from each other. The U.S. probably needs serious reform to get money out of politics. I hope that's something the left and right can agree on. There have been recent studies concluding that we're no longer a democracy but rather an oligarchy in terms of the laws that get passed. That's a judgment call I suppose but we've moved further and further in that direction over the last 40 years or so, with the wealthy gaining more and more levers with which to control the shape and contours of our society.


----------



## Brian26

There is a town in CT (Wallingford) that the town provides 100% of the electricity at cost with nor profit. It is half the price of the other 2 CT electrical providers in the state.

I believe the charge a simple $15 service fee and then .10kwh. They also blew away the other providers in terms of reliability. They had practically zero issues during Sandy and Irene.

We have I believe the highest rates here in the country behind Hawaii.

When I do the math of dividing my total kwh usage against my total bill I pay around .22-.25 a kwh delivered. Half my bill is just charges in delivering to my home. 

Oh and rates are going up 25% again next month. Wouldnt suprise me to see .30kwh total cost soon.

These utilites here are making massive profits if a town can provide more reliable power for half the cost.


----------



## Doug MacIVER

Mass House of Reps to hold Nasty Grid hearing on winter rate raise. Post Audit Comm, always after the fact. how about finding out why when they asked and received their increase last fall.http://wwlp.com/2015/03/24/house-panel-looking-into-recent-spike-in-mass-electric-rates/ question is about signing inflated gas contracts. maybe they need to get a better forecast service to advise them on their gas requirements. also needed increase in supply lines to the power plants.


----------



## CaptSpiff

Doug MacIVER said:


> Mass House of Reps to hold Nasty Grid hearing .... maybe they need to get a better forecast service to advise them on their gas requirements. also needed increase in supply lines to the power plants.



Yup, those opposing the new Natural Gas pipelines are causing your winter energy prices to skyrocket. Plus endangering your lives because of a reliability risk to the ISO-NE electric grid. Luckily New Englanders have plenty of disposable income to pay for those Electric Generators who are forced to temporarily switch to more costly secondary fuels. Oh wait,... that's what we're complaining about.

Lots of studying and complaining, but little will to take action for the "public good".


----------



## Doug MacIVER

interesting unknown fact I think to most people? Boston Globe http://www.bostonglobe.com/business...ustry-warns/nESAc2Vx8ASqAlZkbKU9lI/story.html the last pp is the Nasty Grid position, does not explain how high the cost passed on is. gotta dig to find that I guess. still nice to know I'm helping others to pay for their panels whether bought, leased, or retail


----------



## jb6l6gc

my rates here in southern ontario are 12.9c/kwh plus delivery which is almost as much on top of that.  Almost criminal, and you now know why I try not to run my forced air electric furnace as much as possible. I got the shock of a lifetime last year when I ran outta wood and went meh wth how bad could it be... How bad? I had 2 billing cycles done before the 1st bill came.  Ended up with an $850 bill for January and a $650 for Feb. I tell ya I was back on wood before the blink of an eye LOL. Lessons learned when you move to the country!


----------



## Parallax

Doug MacIVER said:


> interesting unknown fact I think to most people? Boston Globe http://www.bostonglobe.com/business...ustry-warns/nESAc2Vx8ASqAlZkbKU9lI/story.html the last pp is the Nasty Grid position, does not explain how high the cost passed on is. gotta dig to find that I guess. still nice to know I'm helping others to pay for their panels whether bought, leased, or retail



Other forms of energy such as oil and gas are heavily subsidized. Makes far more sense to subsidize renewable energy, especially in light of global warming.


----------



## Swedishchef

jb6l6gc said:


> my rates here in southern ontario are 12.9c/kwh plus delivery which is almost as much on top of that.  Almost criminal, and you now know why I try not to run my forced air electric furnace as much as possible. I got the shock of a lifetime last year when I ran outta wood and went meh wth how bad could it be... How bad? I had 2 billing cycles done before the 1st bill came.  Ended up with an $850 bill for January and a $650 for Feb. I tell ya I was back on wood before the blink of an eye LOL. Lessons learned when you move to the country!


I am fortunate that I have CHEAP electricity AND still burn with wood. I have co-workers who, despite paying $0.07/kWh in our province, have bills that are $500/month! I don't know what they'd do if they lived in another province. One guy even heats his detached garage to 15 degrees year round (it is insulated but still...)

Andrew


----------



## jb6l6gc

Swedishchef said:


> I am fortunate that I have CHEAP elgovernment y AND still burn with wood. I have co-workers who, despite paying $0.07/kWh in our province, have bills that are $500/month! I don't know what they'd do if they lived in another province. One guy even heats his detached garage to 15 degrees year round (it is insulated but still...)
> 
> Andrew


Ya $500 would be cheap compared to us idiots in ontario and its our awsome provincial government who leads into the deep pits of debt. I had one month this yr i didnt burn too much and kept tstat set to 60f and my bill was still over $300


----------



## BrotherBart

Swedishchef said:


> I am fortunate that I have CHEAP electricity AND still burn with wood. I have co-workers who, despite paying $0.07/kWh in our province, have bills that are $500/month! I don't know what they'd do if they lived in another province. One guy even heats his detached garage to 15 degrees year round (it is insulated but still...)
> 
> Andrew



A guy down the street when we built these houses back in 1985 was complaining about his electric bill. I knew he was a mechanic and we had thought about buying the house he was living in. I asked him how he heated that 24X24 garage that had a walk in door to the basement. He said "I leave the basement door open. Heats it pretty well since I work in there all the time.". He was heating a 2,500 sq. ft. house, 1,100 sq. ft. basement and that un-insulated garage with a heat pump rated for the two main floors of the house and couldn't figure out why the bill was high.


----------



## Swedishchef

With the cost of electricity going up, I can see wood becoming a viable heat source for lots of people...via pellet stoves or wood stoves.


----------



## jebatty

> still nice to know I'm helping others to pay for their panels whether bought, leased, or retail


This argument in its various forms is so disingenuous and hypocritical that at times I think people advance it as a joke and are not serious at all. People who put in panels have the same impact on the grid and electric rates as all those other righteous people who:
1) replace incandescent bulbs with CFL
2) replace CFL with LED
3) insulate their homes
4) put in storm windows or more energy efficient new windows
5) install a high efficiency furnace
6) turn down their thermostats
7) forgo air conditioning
8) heat with wood or other biomass
9) wear a sweater and add extra blankets on the bed in winter
10) buy or live in a small home
11) use passive solar
12) turn out the lights and electric devices when not being used
13) install geothermal or a mini-split
14) celebrate their energy cost savings while criticizing someone else who pursues other energy cost savings
15) complain about one rebate while gladly accepting another 
16) complain about one govt subsidy while gladly accepting others (for corn, wheat, sugar, cotton, rice, soybens, gasoline, heating oil, natural gas, etc.)
17) uses any less energy intensive product rather than a similarly functioning higher energy intensive product
17) [add your own here: ....]

Why complain about my rebate while gladly accepting your own?
Why complain about me spending my money to reduce energy usage while gladly spending your money on other energy reduction strategies?

Electric rates are going up because we have invested in a now outmoded production method and outmoded distribution infrastructure and people smarter than the rest of us have figured that out and are figuring out a new method of production and distribution which has huge societal benefits and profit potential. This is free enterprise, aka capitalism, at work par excellence, and it is using govt for the same advantages as all prior big capitalists have (oil, natural gas, iron ore, steel, railroads, electric generation and the nasty grid, etc.).


----------



## Doug MacIVER

#17 paying more directly for my electric usage to lower your cost and usage.(paid to the utility) seriously no joke here, I already pay gov't taxes as you do. some of that goes to subs, I know that. I'm paying more in distribution to help cover costs of your (in general) electricity. I just have to be redundant on that point.


----------



## jebatty

> I'm paying more in distribution to help cover costs of your (in general) electricity.


Really? I hope you have all incandescent lighting and leave the lights on all the time, use electric baseboard or other resistance electric heating, and have all of the other high electric use items, because if not, people who have all those high electric use items are paying more in distribution costs to cover your reduced use of electricity. 

My point is not personal. Utilities follow an unsustainable business model tied to guaranteed profits in a changed electric energy world. They are the Swiss watch makers,  blacksmiths making horseshoes, and vacuum tubes factories of yester-year. Displacement or disruption of one industry by another competitor usually is painful for those displaced -- and maybe some compensation is in order to ease the pain (some might call this socialism), but it is far more efficient for society as a whole to bear the cost of that compensation instead of penalizing the better competitor and thwarting innovation, invention, and entrepreneurship of the better competitor.


----------



## Doug MacIVER

so condescending as usual here, have a day


----------



## jebatty

Doug, no intent to be condescending and, in fact, you have a valid argument, but I'm sure you recognize your argument works both ways.

What I don't know, and this varies among utilities, is the actual cost of distribution, from the generating plant to the end user. I don't know what the relationship is between my base charge and local distribution, repair and maintenance costs. My utility has claimed, true or not, that it allocates costs between base and other charges (all unexplained) while still claiming the base charge does not cover unidentified costs. I have no idea of the rationale for the base charge as it is now or or if the base charge should be something different.

Utility company transparency would be a start. And then how do we treat the person at the end of the line as opposed to user #1, and lots of other equity issues all over the board. What makes little sense to me though is penalizing the innovators, inventors and entrepreneurs.


----------



## Otis B Driftwood

Brian26 said:


> When I do the math of dividing my total kwh usage against my total bill I pay around .22-.25 a kwh delivered. Half my bill is just charges in delivering to my home.



Just up the pike from you and pay 23¢ per kwh, all said and done. 
I figgered it's to make up for the cleanup they laid on us after the 
past few Nor'easters.

But yeah, it's good to be in Wallyworld. There's anudder town east 
of us that's got community electric, Lisbon?


----------



## billb3

Delivery charge: 13.5¢
Generation charge: 15.0¢
so 28.5¢/Kwh plus a one time $1.38 storm performance charge
Feb25 to March25
House is all electric except for heat and hot water (oil boiler needs _some_ electric )
Usually use 4 Kw /day or so this time of year


----------



## chimneyman

begreen said:


> An interesting perspective on electric rates
> http://www.nationofchange.org/2015/...-pay-some-of-the-lowest-rates-in-the-country/



We have a co-op here that buys its power from FPL (FL power and light) and the co-op rates have remained the same for the last 5 years. 7.6 cents/Kwhr for each of the first 500 Kwhrs. 8.6 cents for each Kwhr between 500 and 1000 and 9.7 cents of each kwhr over 1,000 kwhrs. Plus there's a $13 account fee plus $16 junk fee prorated for each 1,000 kwhrs. So 1,000 Kwhrs fully-loaded is about $110.


----------



## chimneyman

begreen said:


> An interesting perspective on electric rates
> http://www.nationofchange.org/2015/...-pay-some-of-the-lowest-rates-in-the-country/



Good article. Thanks.


----------



## WiscWoody

chimneyman said:


> We have a co-op here that buys its power from FPL (FL power and light) and the co-op rates have remained the same for the last 5 years. 7.6 cents/Kwhr for each of the first 500 Kwhrs. 8.6 cents for each Kwhr between 500 and 1000 and 9.7 cents of each kwhr over 1,000 kwhrs. Plus there's a $13 account fee plus $16 junk fee prorated for each 1,000 kwhrs. So 1,000 Kwhrs fully-loaded is about $110.


That's not bad at all for that much power. My bill has been around $40-$45 a month for 230-250 KWh of power a month. That's for a 3400 sq foot house


----------



## Where2

chimneyman said:


> We have a co-op here that buys its power from FPL (FL power and light) and the co-op rates have remained the same for the last 5 years. 7.6 cents/Kwhr for each of the first 500 Kwhrs. 8.6 cents for each Kwhr between 500 and 1000 and 9.7 cents of each kwhr over 1,000 kwhrs. Plus there's a $13 account fee plus $16 junk fee prorated for each 1,000 kwhrs. So 1,000 Kwhrs fully-loaded is about $110.



Considering Nextera (FPL) charges their typical grid customers $0.06259/kWh (non-fuel charge) plus $0.02491/kWh (fuel charge) for the first 1,000kWh and $0.01 more for each category for every kWh over 1,000kWh per month, you're really not taking much markup on FPL base residential rates, and FPL rates are far from static. They generally ask for and receive a ~3%/yr increase, to keep the share holders happy.


----------



## WiscWoody

I used to live in a metropolitan area where power was cheaper but now I'm in the sticks where the power company buys all of their power off the grid. None of the wires are buried meaning power failures are common. But it's interesting that I actually know most of the linemen up here. Well hell... I guess I know almost everyone around here after 7 years up here.... and I like it that way too.


----------



## WiscWoody

Where2 said:


> Considering Nextera (FPL) charges their typical grid customers $0.06259/kWh (non-fuel charge) plus $0.02491/kWh (fuel charge) for the first 1,000kWh and $0.01 more for each category for every kWh over 1,000kWh per month, you're really not taking much markup on FPL base residential rates, and FPL rates are far from static. They generally ask for and receive a ~3%/yr increase, to keep the share holders happy.


I just looked at FPL's web page and their rates, very cheap compared to here in the northland. We pay $13.00 for the monthly service charge and then $0.125 for every KWh we use. It makes you conserve more. For example a bud of mine wanted me to get a plasma TV set when they were more popular but I  said I couldn't afford the 600 watts that they used to burn phosphorus instead opting for a more efficient LCD set that uses less than 100 watts of power to run.


----------



## Swedishchef

I still think Quebec has the best rates. I was paying an average of 7.6 cents/kWh. Can't complain when you're paying the second or third cheapest rates in Canada.

Now it's 30cents for the first 700 and 69 cents thereafter. Eeeee.

Andrew


----------



## WiscWoody

Swedishchef said:


> I still think Quebec has the best rates. I was paying an average of 7.6 cents/kWh. Can't complain when you're paying the second or third cheapest rates in Canada.
> 
> Now it's 30cents for the first 700 and 69 cents thereafter. Eeeee.
> 
> Andrew


You mean 7 and 6.9 cents right? I hope so! Lol


----------



## Swedishchef

WiscWoody said:


> You mean 7 and 6.9 cents right? I hope so! Lol


Nope. 30 cents/kWh for the first 700 kWh and 60 cents thereafter.


----------



## WiscWoody

Swedishchef said:


> Nope. 30 cents/kWh for the first 700 kWh and 60 cents thereafter.


YOWZA! Well I don't feel so bad with our rates here now!


----------



## iamlucky13

Not that electrical prices are a topic that goes out of date, but just FYI, this was a nearly 2 year dormant thread that just got revived.



WiscWoody said:


> I just looked at FPL's web page and their rates, very cheap compared to here in the northland. We pay $13.00 for the monthly service charge and then $0.125 for every KWh we use. It makes you conserve more. For example a bud of mine wanted me to get a plasma TV set when they were more popular but I  said I couldn't afford the 600 watts that they used to burn phosphorus instead opting for a more efficient LCD set that uses less than 100 watts of power to run.



That must have been an early plasma TV. I have a 3-4 year old 51" plasma that I measured at 150W peak with a Kill a Watt. I think the average was more like 125W. For the amount of TV we watch, that's about 35 cents worth of electricity a month.

Here in the land of abundant and cheap hydropower, our local PUD leadership is trying it's hardest to drive our rates up to match yours. Rate increases in recent years are consistently exceeding inflation and they keep taking on new projects where the *wholesale* cost of generated energy is equal to or higher than their current *retail* cost.


----------



## chimneyman

Parallax said:


> Other forms of energy such as oil and gas are heavily subsidized. Makes far more sense to subsidize renewable energy, especially in light of global warming.



That's if global warming (due to mankind) really existed........which we can agree to disagree on but it doesn't solve the problem.

If you want solar and other renewables to be able to compete, solar needs to gain a foothold so that prices will decrease to the point where it (solar) is an everyday commodity instead of a "nice to have" which is only affordable by the rich. To do this the government needs to mandate use of solar in every home built in areas where it's feasible to use it (based on hours of solar available per day vs savings in electricity and respectable pay back period). Once solar becomes just another commodity prices will plummet. Same thing happened with LED light bulbs and other technologies.


----------



## iamlucky13

Swedishchef said:


> Nope. 30 cents/kWh for the first 700 kWh and 60 cents thereafter.



Pretty far north, I assume, with a small local powerplant that fuel has to get trucked or barged in for?


----------



## WiscWoody

iamlucky13 said:


> Not that electrical prices are a topic that goes out of date, but just FYI, this was a nearly 2 year dormant thread that just got revived.
> 
> 
> 
> That must have been an early plasma TV. I have a 3-4 year old 51" plasma that I measured at 150W peak with a Kill a Watt. I think the average was more like 125W. For the amount of TV we watch, that's about 35 cents worth of electricity a month.
> 
> Here in the land of abundant and cheap hydropower, our local PUD leadership is trying it's hardest to drive our rates up to match yours. Rate increases in recent years are consistently exceeding inflation and they keep taking on new projects where the *wholesale* cost of generated energy is equal to or higher than their current *retail* cost.


After seeing your reply I was curios so I did a search for plasma power consumption from 9/2016 to present day. One tv I found the specs on is a Panasonic 61" model VT60. I'm not sure but I remember hearing that Panasonic was the last maker of plasmas sets? Here are the ratings listed:


Power SupplyAC 120 V, 60 Hz
Screen Size Diagonal (inches)60.1
On mode Average Power Consumption169 W
Rated Power Consumption472 W
Standby Power Consumption0.2 W
Display Resolution1,920 (W) x 1,080 (H)
Dimensions (W x H x D) (w/o stand)56.2" x 32.7" x 2.0" (General depth: 2.0")
Dimensions (W x H x D) (with stand)56.2" x 36.1" x 12.2"
Weight (w/o stand)TBD
Weight (with stand)TBD
Swivel Angle—
Optional Wall BracketTY-WK5P1RW
Operating Temperature32°F - 104°F (0°C - 40°C)
Safety StandardUS: UL60065/FCC Parts15; CANADA: CSA C22,2/IC BETS-7
VESA Compatible—
Carton Dimensions (W x H x D)70.9" x 37.7" x 12.1"
Gross Weight (with stand)119.1 lbs.
Warranty


I have no idea what the difference is between the on mode average power consumption and the rated power consumption is? Anyone?


----------



## chimneyman

Parallax said:


> Would love to see a number of utilities broken up and taken over by communities. There are many cities overseas that offer free wifi. There's no reason we shouldn't have it too. It's just our anti-government dogma that gets in the way. There are many things government can do well. Government can also be inefficient and corrupt. The fact that it can be inefficient and corrupt is not a reason to cut it out of the picture. We just have to be responsible for making sure our government agencies respond to citizen input.




We have an electric coop that provides electricity at a fully loaded cost of 11 cents/kwhr and rates have held steady for 5 years AND they buy from FPL here in Florida.


----------



## iamlucky13

WiscWoody said:


> After seeing your reply I was curios so I did a search for plasma power consumption from 9/2016 to present day. One tv I found the specs on is a Panasonic 61" model VT60. I'm not sure but I remember hearing that Panasonic was the last maker of plasmas sets? Here are the ratings listed:
> 
> 
> Power SupplyAC 120 V, 60 Hz
> Screen Size Diagonal (inches)60.1
> On mode Average Power Consumption169 W
> Rated Power Consumption472 W
> Standby Power Consumption0.2 W
> 
> I have no idea what the difference is between the on mode average power consumption and the rated power consumption is? Anyone?



Average is the number to use for operating cost estimates.

Rated is the number to use to make sure you don't overload your wiring, assuming you even bother to check (those with too many outlets on a circuit, like my house, or else with a very high end sound system might want to). The TV should never draw more than that.

UL labels will list the rated power consumption. Most manufacturers don't bother to give average power consumption in any of their specs, although if it's Energy Star rated, they will have measured the average under the Energy Star test conditions, and you can figure it out from the Energy Guide label provided with the appliance. For mine, they say 205 kWh per year, at 5 hours use per day (wow...we average maybe 1 hour/day), which works out to 112 W.

I think you're correct that Panasonic was the last plasma holdout. Now the focus for absolute best picture quality is on OLED screens. Mid-grade LCD's are good enough for almost all buyers who aren't willing to pay top dollar for OLED screens.


----------



## Swedishchef

iamlucky13 said:


> Pretty far north, I assume, with a small local powerplant that fuel has to get trucked or barged in for?


That is right. Hence the sky high prices.


----------



## chimneyman

Where2 said:


> Considering Nextera (FPL) charges their typical grid customers $0.06259/kWh (non-fuel charge) plus $0.02491/kWh (fuel charge) for the first 1,000kWh and $0.01 more for each category for every kWh over 1,000kWh per month, you're really not taking much markup on FPL base residential rates, and FPL rates are far from static. They generally ask for and receive a ~3%/yr increase, to keep the share holders happy.



I was a bit wrong on holding rates steady for 5 years....they actually REDUCED RATES FOUR TIMES IN TWO YEARS and the cost of 1,000 KwHR is not $110 but $106. Rates are lower today than in 2008. It's LCEC (Lee County Electric Co-op).  Here's stuff from their site. Disclaimer: I don't work for them nor does any family member.

"Beginning January 1, LCEC customers saw the fourth rate decrease in two years. LCEC electric rates are below the national average, and among the lowest of 56 utilities in Florida. Employees work hard to provide the best possible price for reliable service to customers and it was possible to reduce rates again due to a calculated business strategy, process improvements, cost management, use of technology and efficient work practices.

As an electric cooperative, LCEC is not in business to make money, only to serve its members/customers by delivering reliable, cost competitive electricity and service. LCEC is governed by its members represented by a ten-member Board of Trustees. At their December meeting, the Board reached a unanimous decision to reduce rates again in 2016. This marks a residential rate reduction of nearly seven percent since 2014, bringing rates from $114.16 per 1,000 kWh to $106.55 per 1,000 kWh. Customers are paying less for electricity now than they were in 2008!

According to the Florida Municipal Electric Association, the average investor-owned electric utility rate in Florida is $128.59 per 1,000 kWh. The average rate for the 33 municipal electric utilities in Florida is $114.41 per 1,000 kWh. LCEC rates are well below the state average and the lowest among Florida cooperatives."


----------



## WiscWoody

iamlucky13 said:


> Average is the number to use for operating cost estimates.
> 
> Rated is the number to use to make sure you don't overload your wiring, assuming you even bother to check (those with too many outlets on a circuit, like my house, or else with a very high end sound system might want to). The TV should never draw more than that.
> 
> UL labels will list the rated power consumption. Most manufacturers don't bother to give average power consumption in any of their specs, although if it's Energy Star rated, they will have measured the average under the Energy Star test conditions, and you can figure it out from the Energy Guide label provided with the appliance. For mine, they say 205 kWh per year, at 5 hours use per day (wow...we average maybe 1 hour/day), which works out to 112 W.
> 
> I think you're correct that Panasonic was the last plasma holdout. Now the focus for absolute best picture quality is on OLED screens. Mid-grade LCD's are good enough for almost all buyers who aren't willing to pay top dollar for OLED screens.


Thanks for the explanation!


----------



## CHeath

Holy smoke screen. I know someone dug up this thread buts good. .26 per kw/h! Omg 

Mine is .09 but with a small fee and tax it ends up being about 10.5 cents. I gobble up 1800-1900 kWh in winter with no stove and about 900 with the stove. Family of 5 with teenagers that shower every 6 minutes. 

Last month it was $177 no wood burn.


----------



## Brian26

Man I wish I paid some of the prices you people are posting. According to the EIA Electricity data I pay the highest rates in the continental U.S. here in CT. I am at the top of the chart.

https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.cfm?t=epmt_5_6_a

Here is what my bills looks like. They absolutely crush you in delivery charges and fees. $64.34 in fees to deliver 500 kwh!

The one good thing is supplier power prices have gone way down. Here in CT you can shop around for your actual supplier. Its around .5-.8 kwh now but 4 years ago it was .10+.


----------



## Circus

Brian26 said:


> They absolutely crush you in delivery charges and fees. $64.34 in fees to deliver 500 kwh!


Over $770 a year to rent some wire  You have good reason to be angry. I'm at a loss to what you can do about it though.
The lower kwh fee is a feature of cost shifting to lower income customers.


----------



## CHeath

Dang that's ****. I'm not gonna complain. I'm shooting for 1000 kw/h this month. It's been mild and I've went all LED Lighting and my heat pump hasn't been on. I usually do 1500-1900 in febs


----------



## dh1989

$56.38 for 284 kWh here in RI, all charges included. $0.199/kWh. We have a natural gas pipeline bottleneck in the northeast that keeps the prices high, as well as the nuke plants slowly going offline.


----------



## Junebug90

We pay about .149 in the woods of Michigan

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk


----------



## oakridge

I recently built a home and put 2 by 6 walls instead of 2 by 4 s , this way I could pack more insulation in the walls.It gets hot and very humid in the summers here so AC is a must for me .I am single and kids gone so I built a 1100 sq ft home .My highest bill was 85 bucks.I keep it 70 degrees in the summer.Insulation is crucial.


----------



## blades

$64 of rip off for $27 of electrical power. at those rates and that use you likely could run your own jenny


----------



## jebatty

Rising rates plus rising distribution and service charges make a very strong case for going solar off-grid for anyone who has a suitable site. Our utility has been raising monthly distribution/service charges by $2-4/year for the last several years, and the indicators show a likely goal of the high $40 to $50 goal from the current $22/month for these charges within a few years, and probably continuing to rise after that. 

Some quick numbers: at approximate current install cost of $2.5/watt, not including off-grid batteries, our 12.3kW PV system now would cost about $31,000 to install new. This system provides 100%+ of our annual kWh usage. My estimate is that we would need about 20kWh of battery storage if we went totally off-grid. For li-ion batteries, current cost is about $1,000/1.2 kWh of storage, or about $16,500 for batteries. Total cost of an off-grid system = $47,500. Less federal tax credit of 30%, cost would be $33,250. 

Based on 2016 electric usage of about 13 kWh and current kWh charges of $0.12 plus $600/mo of distribution/service charges, total cost of electricity is about $2200/yr. Simple payback on an off-grid system would be about 15 years, and likely would be less due to continuing increase in electric kWh and distribution. 

For those who pay even higher electricity rates, or who have additional credits/incentives for PV, payback could be much faster.


----------



## sloeffle

jebatty said:


> Total cost of an off-grid system = $47,500. Less federal tax credit of 30%, cost would be $33,250.
> 
> Based on 2016 electric usage of about 13 kWh and current kWh charges of $0.12 plus $600/mo of distribution/service charges, total cost of electricity is about $2200/yr. Simple payback on an off-grid system would be about 15 years, and likely would be less due to continuing increase in electric kWh and distribution.


I am all for sticking it to the man. But in this situation I think you are better off investing the $33,250 into a mutual fund that follows the S&P 500. According to the calculations ( 11% ROI ) that I did you would have $451,703 after 35 years. I can buy a lot of electric for $450k. If you were to add in the environmental costs of using solar vs fossil fuel then I am not sure what the ROI would be.

Personally, we "bought" the rights to the electric produced from 5 solar panels from our electric company about 6 months ago. The bad thing is that we are charged a little more for some of our electric. The good thing is that it is a fixed per kWh cost for the next 25 years and I do not have to worry about the maintenance or the initial cost of the solar panels.


----------



## jebatty

sloeffle, I'm not sure what calculation parameters you used. If I would use the S&P index for early March 1987 (290), 1997(793), 2007 (1436) and 2017 (2384)and rounding to full % point, I find an investment made in 1997 for 10 years at a 10% compound annual interest rate would have about matched the increase to 1997, and doing the same for each of the next 10 years I come up with 5% for each of the 10 year periods. And all of those investments would have been subject to income taxes, state and federal, so the net return would be less.

For my PV system, which produces about 15,300 kWh/year, and at the current kWh rate of 0.109, which is subject to sale tax of 0.07372%, resulting in an effective kWh rate of 0.117. The annual value of the electricity is $1,790. My investment in PV after the federal tax credit (no other incentives) was $38,900. That equates to a simple rate of return of 4.6%, nearly the same as the S&P, and the return is not subject to tax. The return also is likely to increase year by year, as electric rates rise, and the return is not subject to the market ups and downs. 

My system was installed in 2013 (6.9kW) and 2015 (5.4kW). The same system installed today in my area would cost about $23,700 after the federal tax credit. And at 15,300 kWh/year, the simple rate of return would be 7.6% tax free. With higher electric rates and/or incentives, the rate of return would be higher, and potentially much higher. 

If I change the system to off-grid and add $16,500 for batteries, the numbers would be: system cost would be about $34,900 after the federal tax credit, and the rate of return at my electric rates would be 5.1% tax free, just about the same as the S&P 500 before taxes. Plus, I avoid all of the distribution charges, currently at $22.mo and very likely to rise substantially, which raises my current rate of return to 5.9% tax free. Again, with higher electric rates and/or incentives, and avoiding higher distribution charges, the rate of return would be higher, and potentially much higher. 

sloeffle, I appreciate your perspective, but I don't read anything you say that changes my point of view that "Rising rates plus rising distribution and service charges make a very strong case for going solar off-grid for anyone who has a suitable site."


----------



## blades

Its the distribution section that is going to eat you alive- no controls on that.


----------



## jebatty

Agreed - will be "eaten alive" by distribution charges. Our utility is a distributing utility only: buys wholesale power and then resells and distributes the power in its service area. It had a long practice of low distribution charges and burying the excess distribution charges in the kWh rates. With "threats" from solar and wind, as well as reduced demand through customer conservation, it is now pursuing a plan to raise distribution charges to what it says are its actual costs of distribution (rumored to be in the mid-$40 to low-$50 range per month). What it will do with rates will await the outcome.


----------



## iamlucky13

If you're net zero on the year with a 12.3 kW solar array, 20kWh worth of batteries won't suffice for a couple cloudy days unless you're willing to make major changes to how you use electricity.

I'm not understanding some of your other numbers. I'm sure $600/month in connection fees is a typo, but I don't know if that's $60/month or $600/year.

Also, I would not count on higher than 8% return for the S&P 500. That's slightly below it's long term average, but well above it's worst 20 year returns. I generally use 7% for my retirement planning.

I'm not bullish on off-grid, especially not for above average electricity users, but one thing in favor of energy investments in general is it is far lower risk than the stock market - you will be using energy, and there is little reason to expect utility costs to go down.


----------



## Brian26

blades said:


> Its the distribution section that is going to eat you alive- no controls on that.



They tried last year to raise the base connection fee from like $20 dollars to almost $40 but the state regulators shot it down. I have another thread going in here about looking into solar. My biggest savings with them would be not paying their outrageous delivery charges. A rough estimate when my summer usage is higher is that I pay almost $1K in delivery charges a year. All they could get me on is the $20 a month connection fee if I had panels and produced enough power to cover my usage.


----------



## Brian26

Brian26 said:


> They tried last year to raise the base connection fee from like $20 dollars to almost $40 but the state regulators shot it down. I have another thread going in here about looking into solar. My biggest savings with them would be not paying their outrageous delivery charges. A rough estimate when my higher summer usage is factored in is that I pay almost $1K in delivery charges a year. All they could get me on is the $20 a month connection fee if I had panels and produced enough power to cover my usage.


----------



## jebatty

It was a typo, should be $600/yr. The computation was made correctly, treating the $600 as annual.

Is 20kWh of batteries storage sufficient? Good question.

Our house is all-electric, except for most of the heat, which is wood. We do use electric to keep the lower level at 50F during the winter. Although it is living space, it usually is occupied only by guests in spring/summer/fall when more than one extra bedroom is needed. If needed, the lower level could go without heat during any period with insufficient PV + battery storage. DHW is also electric, and kWh usage for DHW averages 100 kWh/mo.

Not counting electric heat for the lower level and electric for DHW, normal electric usage for our household is about 500 kWh/mo or about 17 kWh/day It is likely then that to maintain normal usage, the PV system would need to produce a minimum of about 600 kWh/mo. The only month our PV system produces less than 600 kWh/mo beginning with 2014 is in December, and that production was: 2014 - 452 kWh, 2015 - 310 kWh., 2016 - 439 kWh. November PV production runs between 650-750 kWh, and January between 600-793 kWh. Other months are much higher. 

December with low PV production and 20 kWh battery storage clearly would be a challenge. "Normal" usage could be reduced to essentials, as needed. There would be some sunny days that PV would produce more than needed to fully charge the batteries and provide excess for usage. Other days would not have enough PV production to charge the batteries at all. We would have the option, as needed, to use the electric generator to supplement if we really needed more electricity on any days when PV + batteries would be insufficient.

The question comes down to whether or not for December each year, and probably for occasional days in November and January, would my wife and I have the "will" to reduce usage to a minimum to go off-grid. It clearly is possible. Do we have the "will," even with additional generator use? Something to ponder.


----------



## Highbeam

jebatty said:


> It was a typo, should be $600/yr. The computation was made correctly, treating the $600 as annual.
> 
> Is 20kWh of batteries storage sufficient? Good question.
> 
> Our house is all-electric, except for most of the heat, which is wood. We do use electric to keep the lower level at 50F during the winter. Although it is living space, it usually is occupied only by guests in spring/summer/fall when more than one extra bedroom is needed. If needed, the lower level could go without heat during any period with insufficient PV + battery storage. DHW is also electric, and kWh usage for DHW averages 100 kWh/mo.
> 
> Not counting electric heat for the lower level and electric for DHW, normal electric usage for our household is about 500 kWh/mo or about 17 kWh/day It is likely then that to maintain normal usage, the PV system would need to produce a minimum of about 600 kWh/mo. The only month our PV system produces less than 600 kWh/mo beginning with 2014 is in December, and that production was: 2014 - 452 kWh, 2015 - 310 kWh., 2016 - 439 kWh. November PV production runs between 650-750 kWh, and January between 600-793 kWh. Other months are much higher.
> 
> December with low PV production and 20 kWh battery storage clearly would be a challenge. "Normal" usage could be reduced to essentials, as needed. There would be some sunny days that PV would produce more than needed to fully charge the batteries and provide excess for usage. Other days would not have enough PV production to charge the batteries at all. We would have the option, as needed, to use the electric generator to supplement if we really needed more electricity on any days when PV + batteries would be insufficient.
> 
> The question comes down to whether or not for December each year, and probably for occasional days in November and January, would my wife and I have the "will" to reduce usage to a minimum to go off-grid. It clearly is possible. Do we have the "will," even with additional generator use? Something to ponder.



With modern generator automation, the genset would automatically fire up and run at optimum output to charge your battery bank in the least amount of time with zero human interaction. You could schedule this to occur during the day so as not to interrupt your peace and quiet. New gensets can be very quiet and relatively efficient when used this way. In fact, I would consider the genset to be a normal part of the operation during the winter so that you can optimize your solar investment.


----------

