# Smell after crawl space encapsulation



## Jjolly (Jun 3, 2016)

Hi. I wanted to ask if anyone was having the same issues. We got our crawl space encapsulated 1 1/2 years ago. A week after, we started smelling an awful smell in the 3 rooms above it. We do not smell it in the crawl itself above the liner. The company did find hidden mold behind liner and fixed it but smell is still there. They installed a radon mitigation system with a fan and smell is still there. Got the house tested for VOC's yesterday and only got 0.1 in actual crawl. We are waiting on mold tests to come back. Any thoughts? It's really strong in one room and I've been getting sinus infections, red eyes and headaches. They are now Saying that it can't be the crawl as the smell isn't on top of the liner. But what about under the liner and it gets in through the concrete blocks? Then into the house? We do not smell it anywhere else. There is only a subfloor separating the crawl and those living spaces. No insulation. We just want it to go away...but how could it not be the crawl space? If it wasn't there before?


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## Lake Girl (Jun 3, 2016)

Is it possible that you are reacting to the material used to encapsulate?  What did they use?

Was spray foam insulation applied to outer walls?


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## Lake Girl (Jun 3, 2016)

http://www.cbc.ca/news/spray-foam-insulation-can-make-some-homes-unlivable-1.2224287


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## Jjolly (Jun 3, 2016)

Lake Girl said:


> Is it possible that you are reacting to the material used to encapsulate?  What did they use?
> 
> Was spray foam insulation applied to outer walls?


Hi! There is foam at the top of the walls above the silver foam they installed. But wouldn't that come up on the Voc reader? There's a good bit up there.


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## Jjolly (Jun 3, 2016)

Lake Girl said:


> http://www.cbc.ca/news/spray-foam-insulation-can-make-some-homes-unlivable-1.2224287


There is foam up there but it's more of a thick caulk? The smell is more of a strong organic smell not musty.


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## Lake Girl (Jun 3, 2016)

The smell as described in the article is a "fishy" smell.

From the article linked above:
According to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), "exposures to [spray foam insulation (SPF)’s] key ingredient, isocyanates, and other SPF chemicals in vapors, aerosols, and dust during and after installation can cause asthma, sensitization, lung damage, other respiratory and breathing problems, and skin and eye irritation."

Since it is a two-part mix, if it is not mixed and applied properly, you can have on-going problems with the material not curing properly.


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## Jjolly (Jun 3, 2016)

Lake Girl said:


> The smell as described in the article is a "fishy" smell.


Yeah it's not fishy....it's more organic and kinda strong like a chemical odor. But it's not in the actual crWl space. I've smelled it under the liner but not on top...


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## peakbagger (Jun 3, 2016)

I hope you aren't relying on the installer or anyone associated with them to diagnose this situation?. With symptoms like you describe, you need an independent to figure out what is going on. There are usually hygiene consultants used by industrial firms in most areas. It may take some calling around but you need to get a air test and figure out where the contaminants are coming from as there can be long term health issues from what appears to be misapplication of chemicals. Foam got a real bed rep years ago by installers who cut corners. I don't know the current formulations but in the older foam systems there was one part that was expensive and one part that was less expensive. Shady installers would change the ratio in the pumps to spray out more of the cheap product. It looked like foam but it would offgas some very nasty products for years driving folks out of homes.


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## Jjolly (Jun 3, 2016)

peakbagger said:


> I hope you aren't relying on the installer or anyone associated with them to diagnose this situation?. With symptoms like you describe, you need an independent to figure out what is going on. There are usually hygiene consultants used by industrial firms in most areas. It may take some calling around but you need to get a air test and figure out where the contaminants are coming from as there can be long term health issues from what appears to be misapplication of chemicals. Foam got a real bed rep years ago by installers who cut corners. I don't know the current formulations but in the older foam systems there was one part that was expensive and one part that was less expensive. Shady installers would change the ratio in the pumps to spray out more of the cheap product. It looked like foam but it would offgas some very nasty products for years driving folks out of homes.


Hi. The company is trying to help...they brought In a biologist to test air we are waiting on results but they are still saying it's not the crawl. Because we don't smell it in the actual crawl just the living space? But it's knky in the 3 rooms above the crawl and appeared right after encap. We just bought this house a month before we did the encap. And there were zero smells. But it was built in 1976...so it's older.


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## Lake Girl (Jun 3, 2016)

Moisture problems in the crawl space prior to encapsulation?  I would suspect an independent consultant would be more beneficial...

What about drainage around the exterior of the foundation? Possible there is moisture build-up along interior walls of crawl space?


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## Jjolly (Jun 3, 2016)

Lake Girl said:


> Moisture problems in the crawl space prior to encapsulation?  I would suspect an independent consultant would be more beneficial...
> 
> What about drainage around the exterior of the foundation? Possible there is moisture build-up along interior walls of crawl space?


Moisture levels are around 45% which they say is perfect for the crawl. We also have a moisture reader in our house. There was no water intrusion before encap only a leaky outside faucet which was fixed with well Installed outside. I feel like we covered everything except for the soil u see watch the liner.


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## Lake Girl (Jun 3, 2016)

I would find out what spray foam brand they utilized and then research that.

While it will cost you, I would look into an independent consultant who likely has more experience with potential problems.

Edit:  https://www.thumbtack.com/nc/charlotte/indoor-air-quality-testing-companies/
http://www.cdaenvironmental.com/
Thomas register entries:
http://www.thomasnet.com/north-carolina/air-quality-testing-services-84841998-1.html


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## begreen (Jun 3, 2016)

Did the testing include formaldehyde emissions?


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## Jjolly (Jun 3, 2016)

Lake Girl said:


> Moisture problems in the crawl space prior to encapsulation?  I would suspect an independent consultant would be more beneficial...
> 
> What about drainage around the exterior of the foundation? Possible there is moisture build-up along interior walls of crawl space?


Hi, there is no known moisture at the crawl before encap? Just the small leak. No one found any standing water. I am going to try to find my own independent tester to make sure their results are correct.


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## Jjolly (Jun 3, 2016)

begreen said:


> Did the testing include formaldehyde emissions?


Hi it did not? You think that could be the problem? Even if we smell nothing in crawl?


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## begreen (Jun 3, 2016)

Very hard to tell without actually smelling it, but some of the symptoms experienced match. Did nothing else change, like new carpet or furniture?


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## greg13 (Jun 3, 2016)

Is there any way to ventilate the crawl space and see if that makes any difference?


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## semipro (Jun 3, 2016)

Is there dedicated ventilation ducts/openings between the encapsulated crawl space and conditioned living area? 
My understanding is that this is required to prevent mold growth in the crawl space.


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## Jjolly (Jun 3, 2016)

begreen said:


> Very hard to tell without actually smelling it, but some of the symptoms experienced match. Did nothing else change, like new carpet or furniture?


Hi no new furniture. We redid hvac system after the encap and painted but all of that was after. Just moved into the house a month before we did encap.


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## Jjolly (Jun 3, 2016)

greg13 said:


> Is there any way to ventilate the crawl space and see if that makes any difference?


Hi we do have the radon mitigation system but it's not working. Was thinking to put a fan down there and see what it does?


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## Jjolly (Jun 3, 2016)

semipro said:


> Is there dedicated ventilation ducts/openings between the encapsulated crawl space and conditioned living area?
> My understanding is that this is required to prevent mold growth in the crawl space.


Hi no there is not? Our crawl space is also attaches to our basement that is conditioned. But there is a door separating them. Everything in the crawl space is closed and there is no ventilation? Should there be? No one has ever said that.


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## semipro (Jun 3, 2016)

Jjolly said:


> Hi no there is not? Our crawl space is also attaches to our basement that is conditioned. But there is a door separating them. Everything in the crawl space is closed and there is no ventilation? Should there be? No one has ever said that.


That's my understanding. Read at green building advisor , fine homebuilding, or building science.

Edit: http://www.energyvanguard.com/crawl-space-encapsulation-features


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## Lake Girl (Jun 4, 2016)

Catchy title and a good question.  Nasty chemicals used.  http://www.treehugger.com/green-arc...n-something-so-toxic-be-considered-green.html

Jjolly, what brand spray foam was used in the crawlspace?


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## Jjolly (Jun 5, 2016)

Lake Girl said:


> Catchy title and a good question.  Nasty chemicals used.  http://www.treehugger.com/green-arc...n-something-so-toxic-be-considered-green.html
> 
> Jjolly, what brand spray foam was used in the crawlspace?


Hi thanks will check it out!


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## Don2222 (Jun 7, 2016)

greg13 said:


> Is there any way to ventilate the crawl space and see if that makes any difference?


This is the best way to ventilate the crawl space!
I got one for my new workshop, works great!
http://tjernlund.com/xchanger_basement_fan.htm

See my pics below:
Just set the humidity level on the Humistat and forget it!


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## moey (Jun 7, 2016)

Jjolly said:


> Hi no there is not? Our crawl space is also attaches to our basement that is conditioned. But there is a door separating them. Everything in the crawl space is closed and there is no ventilation? Should there be? No one has ever said that.



Its conditioned space now. You should have a hvac vent in the space or at a very minimum keep the door open. Although I dont know if that is your problem.


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## Corey (Jun 7, 2016)

A couple of things based on what you said so far:



> The company did find hidden mold behind liner and fixed it but smell is still there.



Would be interesting to know how they fixed it.  If it was just a cleaning, the mold likely returned.  Moisture + any type of impermeable liner sounds like a recipe for re-curring mold.  Possibly they did something to ventillate, though?



> Got the house tested for VOC's yesterday and only got 0.1 in actual crawl.



...but you said you didn't have the smell in the crawl space, correct? ...only the rooms above? - so THAT is where you should be doing the testing.



> It's really strong in one room and I've been getting sinus infections, red eyes and headaches.



Anything special about that one room?  Since this is a fire/hearth forum, is there a stove, heater, fireplace, or other combustion appliance in there?  Does that room have any extra HVAC vents, no HVAC vents, higher ceiling, lower ceiling, anything which might make if different?




> strong organic chemical smell



You might have to go into a bit more detail... organic like musty?  organic like compost/forest after a rain?  organic like old trash?  does it smell 'nasty'? or sharp/acrid? or sort of 'trippy' like paint thinner / gasoline, etc?  does it smell chemical 'like' anything else...vinegar?  ammonia? chlorox bleach? etc?



> radon system



Ideally a radon system would pull air from a space above the soil and below a liner.  This is where radon would be concentrated.  If you're just pulling air out of the whole space, you have to pull out a lot more air.  So if it is installed correctly, it might not help the problem at all if you suspect the smell is coming from 'inside' the space..not up from the floor.  Though if installed 'incorrectly' and evacuating air from the whole crawl space, it somewhat supports the following theory - and might even make it worse.

So, another consideration, since you don't seem to smell it in the actual crawl space... is it possible the smell is/was always present in the house, but sealing the crawl space meant the smell could no longer dissipate? ie- the smell is not necessarily 'from' the crawl space, but sealing it meant the smell can no longer escape or be diluted with fresh air?  Are there any old/disused chimneys which might now backflow instead of pulling air through the crawlspace?  gas appliances?  a woodstove / fireplace where the flue might backflow? This would be especially important if you have any large exhaust vents ...range hood, shower vents, attic fan, clothes dryer which might have been able to pull air through the crawl space - but with it sealed, they now pull air back through some other opening.

Either way, if you've sealed one portion of the house and are still pulling air from another portion, that air has to come from somewhere...musty attic, old flue, fireplace, sewer vent, etc - so it might be be worth a look around the strongest smelling room... especially if you can pinpoint the strongest odor in that room.


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## Dobish (Jun 15, 2016)

is it a dead mouse behind the wall?


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