# I don't get it...



## Bret Chase (Nov 29, 2014)

My sister and brother in law are having a small, brand new house being built down the street from me. Small as in the entire footprint would fit within the area of my kitchen, dining room and bathroom (1865 farm house).  Anyways, it is being built to to code (Maine Uniform Building and Energy Code), which requires r50+ in the ceilings, r23+ in the walls, the r value for the basement depends on where the insulation is put. 

They've got minisplits for heat/ cooling with electric baseboards for emergency heat, and a 5.5kW grid tied PV array.  This is all well and good for 95% of the time.... Buuuuut... that 5% of the time is the dead of winter when the power goes out.  My Bil told me that his PV shuts down w/ mains power.   

He kinda stared at me blankly when I asked him how's he going to keep my niece warm when power is lost.

That's the part I don't get.... We lose power from time to time in the winter, that's a fact of life.  Their house is critically tied to the grid in the name of energy efficiency, mine is not.  If they lose power they're screwed, with no backup heat in the house. 

 If I lose power, life goes on... I've still got heat, cold water, and can cook on either the wood stove or on my gas range.  If they lose power.... I've got 3 house guests.

Why are houses being built like this?


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## Babaganoosh (Nov 29, 2014)

That is kinda stupid. Backup genny?


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## Bret Chase (Nov 29, 2014)

nope, literally zero backup


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## drz1050 (Nov 29, 2014)

Stupid to not have any backup, especially when you live in a place like that. 

With all that insulation it'll take a couple days for the house to cool down all the way at least.. but still.


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## Bret Chase (Nov 29, 2014)

I think I've got him talked into getting a small LPG catalytic wall mounted direct vent heaters as a back up, as they will have a gas cooktop... I think part of their problem is they spent all their money in the kitchen and on the minisplits... and as first time home owners... backup heat didn't enter their mind.


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## drz1050 (Nov 29, 2014)

If they have a gas stove, they can use that as heat in a pinch... I've done it before in an old house when power went out.. 

Thought you meant they had an electric range too.


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## Circus (Nov 29, 2014)

If they're buttoned up like you say, they'll be fine.


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## Bret Chase (Nov 29, 2014)

They don't have a gas stove... like I said, they spent their money in the kitchen... gas cook top, electric wall mount double ovens.  It would not surprise me if the cook top doesn't have an NFPA electric gas valve in it.

I do wonder however wonder, what it would take to reconfigure their PV system to auto disconnect from mains and remain online through a power outage.  It would kill me to have spent the $$ on a PV system to have it just *shut off* when I needed it the most.


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## Bret Chase (Nov 29, 2014)

Circus said:


> If they're buttoned up like you say, they'll be fine.



 they may be.... they might not.  Our houses are just about 3 miles from the Atlantic ocean... In Feb, -15F and a 40MPH wind is not all that uncommon.  They are also in the middle of a field with no trees more than 30' tall within 500' to block the wind.  I am on the opposite side of the road, with a nice tight row of 70'+ pines 250' from my house, shielding me from the easterly wind.

It is amazing when you compare at how farmsteads were set up in the 19th century, and where houses now are placed.  Houses now are basically dropped on the lot where they fit. My old house and it's attached El and Barn are over 100' long, running almost due north/south.  This alignment uses the house as a wind break for the more constant westerly winds... and the large trees to deflect and divert the more brutal easterly storm winds coming off the water.

I *wish* I had the money to drop a PV system on the 900sq ft southern facing half of the barn roof....


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## woodgeek (Nov 29, 2014)

I think the LPG wall heater sounds like a good backup solution to me. 

And a gasoline genny is a lot cheaper and more versatile than trying to island the PV system for 4 hours of juice per day (in the winter).


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## STIHLY DAN (Nov 29, 2014)

We just went 2 days without power 5 pm wed thru 10 pm Friday. Not a big deal at all to me, because I made sure to be ready. Its amazing how many people were walking around complaining how cold, hungry, and worried about pipes freezing. We live in the north east, power outages just go with the territory. If anyone hasn't made provisions for outages, they are foolish and deserve what they get.


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## begreen (Nov 29, 2014)

Experience is a great teacher.


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## hossthehermit (Nov 29, 2014)

Bret Chase said:


> If they lose power.... I've got 3 house guests.



Sounds to me like they DO have a backup plan ......................


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Nov 29, 2014)

Sounds like a nice "*housewarming*" gift for your sister would be a neighborly thing to give! Maybe a nice generator?


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## becasunshine (Nov 29, 2014)

It has been a long time since we looked at this, although it's a possibility for the future in our remote location, but.  As I understood it when we last looked at it, we had two discreet choices for PV systems:  1. Grid tied, 2. Stand alone.  There wasn't an option as far as I know to "disconnect" from the grid if you were grid tied.  If you are grid tied and the grid goes down, you are out of power too.  As far as I knew, if your PV system was stand alone, then your entire household was off grid.  There's a way to disconnect?  I'm truly interested!


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## Bret Chase (Nov 29, 2014)

NE WOOD BURNER said:


> Sounds like a nice "*housewarming*" gift for your sister would be a neighborly thing to give! Maybe a nice generator?



yeah, um... no.


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## Bret Chase (Nov 29, 2014)

hossthehermit said:


> Sounds to me like they DO have a backup plan ......................



if it is, it's a crappy plan... as I don't fix frozen plumbing for free....


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## Grisu (Nov 30, 2014)

becasunshine said:


> There's a way to disconnect? I'm truly interested!



Had the same thoughts until I read a bit more about it. Without a battery backup it won't be of much use. One cloud in front of the sun and your power just goes off again. You will have a hard time without some form of "stabilizer" in between.


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Nov 30, 2014)

Well, they could get a generator that can just power the mini split for now. or rent one insurance should pick it up. They should put in a generator switch though so they will have it hooked correctly if the need arises.


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## Knots (Nov 30, 2014)

begreen said:


> Experience is a great teacher.



This.  The first time they're in the dark, cold Maine night with no way to stay warm, it'll concentrate their thinking.  My Dad bought a wood stove in CT after the blizzard of '78.

Actually, there's no guarantee.  I know some people who get through a crisis, and don't prepare for it to happen again - they just believe that it _WON'T_ happen again..


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## firefighterjake (Nov 30, 2014)

Knots said:


> This.  The first time they're in the dark, cold Maine night with no way to stay warm, it'll concentrate their thinking.  My Dad bought a wood stove in CT after the blizzard of '78.
> 
> Actually, there's no guarantee.  I know some people who get through a crisis, and don't prepare for it to happen again - they just believe that it _WON'T_ happen again..



I remember folks buying generators after the 1998 ice storm left so many folks in Maine without power for days ... and then returning the generators a few days later when their power was restored ... as you say some folks just think it will not happen again.

Experience being a good teacher ... I learned ... before it was never a big deal to lose power since it was always just a few hours, not days ... I kept the generator and started thinking about a woodstove ... it did take the high heating oil prices in 2008 though to give me the final push to get the stove.


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## Knots (Nov 30, 2014)

firefighterjake said:


> I remember folks buying generators after the 1998 ice storm left so many folks in Maine without power for days ... and then returning the generators a few days later when their power was restored ...



I was wondering why more people didn't have generators since so many get bought prior to storms.  Then I found out that they get returned afterwards.  Blew my mind...

I've got an 11kw propane generator, a small gas generator, and a wood stove.  I won't sleep good until I have enough wood put up to deal with this:

http://www.erh.noaa.gov/car/Newsletter/htm_format_articles/climate_corner/yearwithoutsummer_lf.htm


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## BrotherBart (Nov 30, 2014)

Most stores around here have it posted that gennys can't be returned. Exactly because of past practices.


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## Bret Chase (Nov 30, 2014)

firefighterjake said:


> I remember folks buying generators after the 1998 ice storm left so many folks in Maine without power for days ... and then returning the generators a few days later when their power was restored ... as you say some folks just think it will not happen again.



I fortunately (for me) missed the ice storm of '98... I was working for the commerce dept in SE Kentucky at the time.

I've never bought a genny because I had access to 3 at my old job.... now that it's my *old* job.... I probably should go out and buy one, lol  In the meantime however, I do have my homestead setup to be completely liveable with no power... My teens may disagree though...


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## firefighterjake (Nov 30, 2014)

Bret Chase said:


> I fortunately (for me) missed the ice storm of '98... I was working for the commerce dept in SE Kentucky at the time.
> 
> I've never bought a genny because I had access to 3 at my old job.... now that it's my *old* job.... I probably should go out and buy one, lol  In the meantime however, I do have my homestead setup to be completely liveable with no power... My teens may disagree though...



Sounds like you're fine with or without a generator . . . incidentally . . .  you didn't miss much back in 1998. We were without power for 14 days -- although I was down at the Fire Academy in Emmitsburg, MD for about half of that time, leaving my wife behind to man the generator.


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## gzecc (Nov 30, 2014)

Bret Chase said:


> My sister and brother in law are having a small, brand new house being built down the street from me. Small as in the entire footprint would fit within the area of my kitchen, dining room and bathroom (1865 farm house).  Anyways, it is being built to to code (Maine Uniform Building and Energy Code), which requires r50+ in the ceilings, r23+ in the walls, the r value for the basement depends on where the insulation is put.
> 
> They've got minisplits for heat/ cooling with electric baseboards for emergency heat, and a 5.5kW grid tied PV array.  This is all well and good for 95% of the time.... Buuuuut... that 5% of the time is the dead of winter when the power goes out.  My Bil told me that his PV shuts down w/ mains power.
> 
> ...


 
I would be surprised if an insurance company will pay off on a frozen pipe water damage claim with this set up.


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## Bret Chase (Nov 30, 2014)

gzecc said:


> I would be surprised if an insurance company will pay off on a frozen pipe water damage claim with this set up.



I dunno.... every insurance co is different... My insurance carrier was the same of my neighbor's... they paid when the heat tape in the cellar malfunctioned and burnt his house down. Sad too.. that house was the only one on my road older than mine... and built by my family, just like my house.


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## Bret Chase (Nov 30, 2014)

firefighterjake said:


> Sounds like you're fine with or without a generator . . . incidentally . . .  you didn't miss much back in 1998. We were without power for 14 days -- although I was down at the Fire Academy in Emmitsburg, MD for about half of that time, leaving my wife behind to man the generator.



in the winter, yes... I am fine w/o power.....  but if in the summer some asshat cuts off a pole.... (like what happened last summer) I need something powering my freezer.


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## woodgeek (Nov 30, 2014)

Tell them to get a Prius, and a 1000W inverter to run off it.  Done.  

Probably not your style....might be theirs.


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## scooby074 (Nov 30, 2014)

Honda generator and a Generlink (or equivalent anti-backfeed method)  to solve the power outage issues.

There is one solar inverter made by SMA that can run when the grid is down to provide emergency daylight power. Problem is that it maxes out at something like 1500W and a single plug.  Its more for charging phones and computers as opposed to running heaters.


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## woodgeek (Nov 30, 2014)

For heat they're gonna run the stove and crack a couple windows...and have a battery CO monitor (or two).


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## Mrs. Krabappel (Nov 30, 2014)

When I lived in Florida a large hurricane was in the forecast for at least a week.  People were standing in line for emergency water the day after it hit.  

Oh Hi guys!


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## Bret Chase (Nov 30, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> Tell them to get a Prius, and a 1000W inverter to run off it.  Done.
> 
> Probably not your style....might be theirs.



I've actually done that, running an inverter off of our 14 year old suburban (big ass battery, 140A alternator)


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## Bret Chase (Nov 30, 2014)

scooby074 said:


> Honda generator and a Generlink (or equivalent anti-backfeed method)  to solve the power outage issues.
> 
> There is one solar inverter made by SMA that can run when the grid is down to provide emergency daylight power. Problem is that it maxes out at something like 1500W and a single plug.  Its more for charging phones and computers as opposed to running heaters.



Honda generators are terrible... I had a EU1000i that turned itself into a bug fogger... and the EX5000 that melted down, and cost twice what my 10,000watt Miller engine drive welder did.


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## JTRock (Nov 30, 2014)

I am currently in the process of getting solar consultation. Front of the house facing south and no interference. I asked the solar guy why no juice during an outage since I make my own electricity.  He gives me standard back feed blah, blah. I say to him thats funny why can't I flip a transfer switch like my genny???? He shrugs.. I know the answer, people like me are bad for the local economy when there is a major storm if I could have my own electricity.


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## blades (Dec 1, 2014)

Any genny if needed for back-up should be set up to run off lp or ng- due to the epa fuel regs for diesel or gas.  Other wise when ya need it it won't.


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## firefighterjake (Dec 1, 2014)

blades said:


> Any genny if needed for back-up should be set up to run off lp or ng- due to the epa fuel regs for diesel or gas.  Other wise when ya need it it won't.



This has not been an issue for me . . . but I generally use a fuel stabilizer, start it occasionally and buy fresh gas when needed (i.e. a storm is coming) instead of keeping it fully fueled. Has worked for me since 1998.


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## Bret Chase (Dec 1, 2014)

firefighterjake said:


> This has not been an issue for me . . . but I generally use a fuel stabilizer, start it occasionally and buy fresh gas when needed (i.e. a storm is coming) instead of keeping it fully fueled. Has worked for me since 1998.



I've not had that issue either... the issue I have had (i.e. my parents) is equipment just being left outside...junked up carbs, squirrels, etc.

the one thing people don't realize is how much more lpg you're going to go through than gas...


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## firefighterjake (Dec 1, 2014)

Bret Chase said:


> I've not had that issue either... the issue I have had (i.e. my parents) is equipment just being left outside...junked up carbs, squirrels, etc.
> 
> the one thing people don't realize is how much more lpg you're going to go through than gas...



One of my co-workers discovered this . . . ran through an entire tank of LPG hooked to the generator in the home they rent down in Sedgwick in 3 days when they lost power from the storm a few weeks back.


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## Bret Chase (Dec 1, 2014)

firefighterjake said:


> One of my co-workers discovered this . . . ran through an entire tank of LPG hooked to the generator in the home they rent down in Sedgwick in 3 days when they lost power from the storm a few weeks back.



yup... In my old job... you take a single model of skyjack scissor lift.... the 3 cyl kubota diesel version.... 8 gals would last 2 weeks, the 4 cyl ford on gas, 5 gal/day, the same ford on LPG.... a 33# forklift tank (7.5 gal) 6 hours... if you were lucky.


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## peakbagger (Dec 1, 2014)

With respect to setting up the solar to run when the grid is down, in order to have full backup requires a large expensive battery bank and additional more expensive components. Figure on doubling the cost of the system. There is one partial option with is something called a SPS (secure power supply) option on one brand of inverters made by Sunny Boy. The inverter powers one dedicated 15 amp receptacle when the sun is shining adequately to generate enough input power. Unfortunately if its cloudy they are out of luck. The SPS doesn't raise the price of the inverter significantly so its almost "free".

The initial cost for battery based hybrid system is significant although 30% is paid by the Fed. What is not factored in are the battery replacements every 10 years. A generator costs a lot less.


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## scooby074 (Dec 1, 2014)

Bret Chase said:


> Honda generators are terrible... I had a EU1000i that turned itself into a bug fogger... and the EX5000 that melted down, and cost twice what my 10,000watt Miller engine drive welder did.



Ive read your comments on honda generators before.. As I think I said then, you are about the only person I know of that has had issues with Honda gennies.

Our large Eu6500i has been a tank and is over 10 years old.. Starts first crank. Lots of friends have the small inverters too, never an issue, start first time.

Given the shear volume of Honda gensets out there you think there would be horror stories all over the net like there are for the clones and other cheap generators? Yet there isnt.


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## Ashful (Dec 1, 2014)

Bret Chase said:


> If they lose power.... I've got 3 house guests.
> 
> Why are houses being built like this?


Because they know their BIL will bail them out when power goes off?


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## Bret Chase (Dec 1, 2014)

scooby074 said:


> Ive read your comments on honda generators before.. As I think I said then, you are about the only person I know of that has had issues with Honda gennies.
> 
> Our large Eu6500i has been a tank and is over 10 years old.. Starts first crank. Lots of friends have the small inverters too, never an issue, start first time.
> 
> Given the shear volume of Honda gensets out there you think there would be horror stories all over the net like there are for the clones and other cheap generators? Yet there isnt.



Both of those generators were bought by my former boss with a honda fetish... dealer serviced to the letter.... The EU1000i doesn't have replaceable valve guides.... so when it goes all bug fogger.... you have to just throw it out and buy a new one... that's according to honda. known failure mode. Before that point, it is a fantastic generator... super quiet... 0.10 gal/hr consumption

maybe we got a lemon EX5000... but my former boss hasn't bought a honda since.  I've had a LOT better luck, believe it or not, with the chinese honda clones... the one in my gas compressor runs like a frick'n top.


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## Bret Chase (Dec 1, 2014)

Joful said:


> Because they know their BIL will bail them out when power goes off?



probably...


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## jharkin (Dec 3, 2014)

Bret Chase said:


> Why are houses being built like this?



Because most people are oblivious to reality and just assume that no matter what the grid will always be there and "they" will always fix it.

For example, my wife has commented more than once that she thinks the fireplace in the living room where the stove is installed would look much better if we just rip out the stove and use it as an open fireplace.  I comment that it may look better but then we have no heat if the power goes out.

Her reply?  "So what? I'd just go to a hotel"

The rest of my family, and I would be willing to bet probably 90% of  Americans, are exactly the same way.


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## begreen (Dec 3, 2014)

Sorry ma'am all our rooms are booked.


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## jillybeansisme (Dec 4, 2014)

@jharkin  I work in a hotel -- if your heat is out because the power is out, chances are there are no warm rooms at the Inn even if they do have an emergency back up generator!  That generator would be used for more important stuff such as refrigerators and emergency lighting.

@Bret Chase  I don't know how much you like your Sis & BIL staying with you most of the winter's power outages, but what about a little "cottage heater" as a Holiday Gift/Housewarming Gift/Welcome to the Neighborhood Gift/Save My Sanity Gift?  I'm talking about a one-room cottage heater . . .


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## Ashful (Dec 4, 2014)

jharkin said:


> Because most people are oblivious to reality and just assume that no matter what the grid will always be there and "they" will always fix it.


I have not yet lived thru an event where I could argue that the woodstove was a necessity.  We were without power for most of a week during last year's ice storm, but it was easy enough keeping the oil-fired boiler in the basement going on a small portable generator.  The gas station near us was without power for a short period, but got it back quickly, and there were probably close to 50 other gas stations within a 30 minute drive that never lost power.

I like my woodstove, and the fact that it reduces my dependency on oil, but it will take world events larger than any of us have yet experienced to make it an emergency necessity.


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## begreen (Dec 4, 2014)

Try living on an island. The stove becomes much more of a necessity when the few gas stations also are without power, roads are unplowed and blocked and you don't have 4wd.


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## BrotherBart (Dec 4, 2014)

Try not having a furnace, having a power out for a seven or eight days, 1,000 foot hill for a driveway (that the county plows a mountain in front of), and three or four feet of snow sometime. Stove comes under the heading of down right necessary item about that time.

Of course without a furnace it is a necessity on a dry 40 degree day too.


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## Ashful (Dec 4, 2014)

Point taken, guys.  But you're describing the fringe, not the conditions under which the vast majority of Americans live.  I thought that was the issue being discussed... the countless masses in grid-dependent houses.


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## begreen (Dec 4, 2014)

All it takes is a Hurricane Sandy to put you out on the fringe. A lot of folks on the east coast found this out the hard way. Stronger storms are becoming the norm. It doesn't hurt to be prepared.


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## Knots (Dec 5, 2014)

begreen said:


> All it takes is a Hurricane Sandy to put you out on the fringe. A lot of folks on the east coast found this out the hard way. Stronger storms are becoming the norm. It doesn't hurt to be prepared.



Sandy wasn't even a hurricane by the time it hit the NY area - it was a tropical storm.  The hurricane of '38 is worth reading about.  It was more powerful than Katrina.  It set off seismographs in Alaska.  Smeared Montpelier with salt spray.  Left tropical birds in northern New England.  Rearranged the coastlines of CT, Long Island, and RI enough to require map changes.  14 feet of water in Providence.  1/3 of the trees in NH and VT went down.  

If one like that hits in the same place with today's population and infrastructure, watch out.

Bushnell park in Hartford in '38:


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## woodgeek (Dec 5, 2014)

My grandma was an office worker in downtown Providence in '38.  Said she went to work in the AM to blue skies, and when it was time to go home, her building was standing in deep water.  Everyone slept in the office and went home after the water receded. 

I guess they didn't check the European computer model back then.  

Pet peeve: Sandy didn't hit NYC.  The eye made land in Atlantic City, NJ over 100 miles away, and went right over center-city Philly and my house.  The 'eye lull' thing in the middle was cool to experience (we showed the kids), but once was enough.  NYC got flooded by a rare combo of storm surge and spring tide.

Classic Philly second-class citizen issue.  Philly takes a direct strike by a hurricane/TS, and the national news is all about some flooding and blackouts in NYC.


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## Knots (Dec 5, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> Pet peeve: Sandy didn't hit NYC.  The eye made land in Atlantic City, NJ over 100 miles away, and went right over center-city Philly and my house.



Understood.  I just picked a place about halfway through the devastation.  Here's my place 40 miles east of NYC in CT.  This is a couple of towns inland too.  Some large trees came down and, judging from my neighbors yard (the pic with the kiddie slide) and the reservoir forest up the street, white pines don't like heavy winds.






As far as the '38 weather model goes - they lost the storm halfway up the coast.  The senior weatherman said it's out to sea.  The new guy said "I dunno 'bout that"...

Everybody listened to the senior guy...


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## Doug MacIVER (Dec 5, 2014)

Knots said:


> Sandy wasn't even a hurricane by the time it hit the NY area - it was a tropical storm.  The hurricane of '38 is worth reading about.  It was more powerful than Katrina.  It set off seismographs in Alaska.  Smeared Montpelier with salt spray.  Left tropical birds in northern New England.  Rearranged the coastlines of CT, Long Island, and RI enough to require map changes.  14 feet of water in Providence.  1/3 of the trees in NH and VT went down.
> 
> If one like that hits in the same place with today's population and infrastructure, watch out.
> 
> ...


actually no even a TS. NWS downgraded to extratropical 30 minutes before landfall, hence Super-storm Sandy.( might have influenced insurance claims).as to bg's claim of stronger storms http://www.wunderground.com/hurricane/accumulated_cyclone_energy.asp?basin=gl, add to that NOAA says 2014 one of the lowest years for tornados in the last 30 years. don't know where the stronger storms claim comes from. if '38 was 60 miles west they still wouldn't have power in NYC(sarc)


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## woodgeek (Dec 5, 2014)

I grew up in the Boston area.  Everything is just WAY more important up there.  If Sandy had made a direct hit on Boston, rather than Philly, it would have been the 'storm of the century' and they would have put up a monument.  If the wind speeds were less than hurricane force, they would pass a law changing the threshold for a 'Massachusetts Hurricane'.  

You can naysay, but the destruction visited on my area by Sandy was like nothing I saw in MA during the 70s and 80s.  Not even close.


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## Knots (Dec 5, 2014)

Doug MacIVER said:


> if '38 was 60 miles west they still wouldn't have power in NYC(sarc)


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## Ashful (Dec 5, 2014)

begreen said:


> All it takes is a Hurricane Sandy to put you out on the fringe. A lot of folks on the east coast found this out the hard way. Stronger storms are becoming the norm. It doesn't hurt to be prepared.


I was right in the crosshairs of Sandy, the eye went right over my house.  We were without power, and I had the one stove going the whole time, but it wasn't cold enough to call it necessary.  Hurricanes run on heat, can't build power in cold.


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## Ashful (Dec 5, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> I grew up in the Boston area.  Everything is just WAY more important up there.  If Sandy had made a direct hit on Boston, rather than Philly, it would have been the 'storm of the century' and they would have put up a monument.  If the wind speeds were less than hurricane force, they would pass a law changing the threshold for a 'Massachusetts Hurricane'.
> 
> You can naysay, but the destruction visited on my area by Sandy was like nothing I saw in MA during the 70s and 80s.  Not even close.


Sandy was the second costliest and most damaging storm in US history, only outdone by Katrina.


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## woodgeek (Dec 5, 2014)

Confession: my older bro in foxboro tried to explain to me that the damage in his area was WAY worse than whatever I might have, because Sandy 'hit his house' and he had one of his trees topped off.

When I pointed out that I had no power for 5 days, while he didn't lose power, he suggested that perhaps my wiring down in PA was just inferior.  Brothers.  LOL.


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## Doug MacIVER (Dec 5, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> I grew up in the Boston area.  Everything is just WAY more important up there.  If Sandy had made a direct hit on Boston, rather than Philly, it would have been the 'storm of the century' and they would have put up a monument.  If the wind speeds were less than hurricane force, they would pass a law changing the threshold for a 'Massachusetts Hurricane'.
> 
> You can naysay, but the destruction visited on my area by Sandy was like nothing I saw in MA during the 70s and 80s.  Not even close.


Kittansett Golf Club in Marion,Ma has a sign on an inland hole(albeit only several hundred yards inland) with the height of storm surge. The storms listed are the '38, The Great Aatlatic Hurricane '44,and Carol '54. nothing has come close since.it will be surpassed someday. the "perfect storm '90" was as close as Boston could come to a Super Sandy, takes a retrograde storm. add the geography with Cape, unlike S-Sandy which also drove LI sound water with east and no east winds. NYC not in the best position when the perfect rare circumstance shows up. add to it the WTC is below Hudson River levels.


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## woodgeek (Dec 5, 2014)

Sure.  And I suspect the experience with Sandy in coastal _New Jersey_ compares to those historical storms in NE.  Whole communities wiped out with many feet of wind-blown salt water.  Boats torn from anchorages coming through your living room window, you name it.

I'll tell them it was down-rated to an extra-tropical shortly before landfall.  No worries.


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## Doug MacIVER (Dec 5, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> Sure.  And I suspect the experience with Sandy in coastal _New Jersey_ compares to those historical storms in NE.  Whole communities wiped out with many feet of wind-blown salt water.  Boats torn from anchorages coming through your living room window, you name it.
> 
> I'll tell them it was down-rated to an extra-tropical shortly before landfall.  No worries.


Nws and the Mayor blew that one.NWS actually reported two different positions 35 minutes apart. one for Hsandy ,The  the mets on twitter were amazed where the storm was and where it went.a collective "how'd it do that"


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## begreen (Dec 5, 2014)

Point being is that storms are getting stronger with warmer sea temps and more dramatic weather extremes. If you are in a coastal area be prepared. You could be without power for weeks. Out here we have to take the potential of earthquakes with the same serious respect. If you live in a rural area it could be a week or two before anyone even comes to check on you. If you have a brick and mortar chimney it may not be standing after a big shake. Then where is the heat?


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## Doug MacIVER (Dec 5, 2014)

begreen said:


> Point being is that storms are getting stronger with warmer sea temps and more dramatic weather extremes. If you are in a coastal area be prepared. You could be without power for weeks. Out here we have to take the potential of earthquakes with the same serious respect. If you live in a rural area it could be a week or two before anyone even comes to check on you. If you have a brick and mortar chimney it may not be standing after a big shake. Then where is the heat?


1954 with HCarol se mass was hit hard. I vividly remember days without power. as a little kid it was great, cookout everynight. dad's grill was a 10 x 15 vshape. in 1955 with Hdiane dad lost all he had as the business was flooded under 8ft .owner of an undamged customer, Potvin Shoe, gave dad the keys to his factory and told him his people went home at 4pm. dick potvin did charge him rent for the month or so he was there, the total bill $1.00 with power.

the old folks around here know what these storms do and most of the youngsters have heard the stories. the new people to the area maybe not so much. same with your area most everyone knows the quake threat, even without experiencing one. I'd be more afraid of Rainier. talk about a power out.


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## jharkin (Dec 5, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> I grew up in the Boston area.  Everything is just WAY more important up there.




Your just jealous of how totally awesome we are


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## Cynnergy (Dec 6, 2014)

We live in an all-electric house in town.  The hydroelectric dam that powers the town is only about 2km from my house.  In 2011 we had a huge windstorm that knocked out the power to most of the town for 3 days.  No one was prepared for that - the freakin' dam is 2km away! Thousands of trees came down.  But they just told us what will happen when 'the big one' hits and it's much much worse:  http://www.courierislander.com/news/local/you-could-kiss-downtown-campbell-river-goodbye-1.1652883. Good thing I live up the hill


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## Bret Chase (Dec 9, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> I grew up in the Boston area.  Everything is just WAY more important up there.  If Sandy had made a direct hit on Boston, rather than Philly, it would have been the 'storm of the century' and they would have put up a monument.  If the wind speeds were less than hurricane force, they would pass a law changing the threshold for a 'Massachusetts Hurricane'.
> 
> You can naysay, but the destruction visited on my area by Sandy was like nothing I saw in MA during the 70s and 80s.  Not even close.



"we" had one...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Perfect_Storm

No monument in boston... just a few names added to one in Gloucester...


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## Bret Chase (Dec 9, 2014)

Doug MacIVER said:


> 1954 with HCarol se mass was hit hard. I vividly remember days without power. as a little kid it was great, cookout everynight. dad's grill was a 10 x 15 vshape. in 1955 with Hdiane dad lost all he had as the business was flooded under 8ft .owner of an undamged customer, Potvin Shoe, gave dad the keys to his factory and told him his people went home at 4pm. dick potvin did charge him rent for the month or so he was there, the total bill $1.00 with power.
> 
> the old folks around here know what these storms do and most of the youngsters have heard the stories. the new people to the area maybe not so much. same with your area most everyone knows the quake threat, even without experiencing one. I'd be more afraid of Rainier. talk about a power out.




The problem with Carol was that Edna hit New England 10 days later.  Imagine that... 2 hurricanes making landfall in Maine as Cat 1 storms... within 10 days.

The amount of damage (I've seen the pics) to the very small town I grew up in was astounding....


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## DAKSY (Dec 17, 2014)

drz1050 said:


> If they have a gas stove, they can use that as heat in a pinch...


 
WHAT!??!?! You are recommending that someone use a
HOUSEHOLD VENTED GAS-BURNING Stove for HEAT?!?!
That is flat-out dangerous & insanely STUPID.
During EVERY power outage in the cold season here in
upstate NY folks DIE because they try that.
Bad, bad information.


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## Adios Pantalones (Dec 17, 2014)

I have had a Honda generator for about 7 years and it's been extremely reliable (and not gently used)


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## razerface (Dec 19, 2014)

Yea,, well,,,,one day last year the wind blew really hard here.  I had to pick up 4 big sticks from the driveway! Yes, you read it right,,, 4! ,,,,,Big ones!


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## gzecc (Dec 19, 2014)

Joful said:


> I have not yet lived thru an event where I could argue that the woodstove was a necessity.  We were without power for most of a week during last year's ice storm, but it was easy enough keeping the oil-fired boiler in the basement going on a small portable generator.  The gas station near us was without power for a short period, but got it back quickly, and there were probably close to 50 other gas stations within a 30 minute drive that never lost power.
> 
> I like my woodstove, and the fact that it reduces my dependency on oil, but it will take world events larger than any of us have yet experienced to make it an emergency necessity.


 
I never thought I would either, until Sandy. 60 miles from the cost we lost 30 trees and were without power for almost 2 weeks. Gas stations didn't have gas for 7 days. We were lucky it wasn't too cold. Having the wood stove make it nice. It was nice to warm water and ourselves.


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## Ashful (Dec 19, 2014)

Hi gzecc,

As I mentioned above, I had Sandy go right over my house.  I honestly can't count how many trees we lost (100+?), and we were also without power for most of a week.  It wasn't cold to the point of saying my stove was a real necessity, tho, and I had no trouble keeping my oil-fired boiler running off my little 8kW generator.  In our case, gas became a little more fun to buy (some stations were closed the first day or three), but it could be found without an enormous amount of trouble.

The woodstoves definitely made things much more pleasant, so I wasn't arguing against having one at all.  I was just refuting the statement that they're necessary to make it thru events such as this.  They are a nice thing to have... but not entirely necessary, at least around here.

We average a major hurricane type event maybe twice per decade, but it's usually fairly warm when they happen.  Hurricanes usually require warm air to become effective.


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## BrotherBart (Dec 19, 2014)

Hurricanes visit us every three years or so. But we lose power every winter from snow or ice and power lines that run through miles and miles so trees. And we are at the end of the line as far as restoration goes. Of course with no other heat source it doesn't make any difference if the power is on or off except for lights and the well pump. Well, that and hearth.com.

Different people have different circumstances. By choice, fate, necessity or whatever.


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