# Seton W100 Boiler coal/ash and burn time issues



## byrddogwi (Feb 26, 2008)

I have problems with the boiler getting a lot of ash/coals which fill up the fire box in 2-3 days.  Once it gets up to the draft holes it smolders and creates a lot of creosote and does not heat above 120 degree water temperature.  It also does not make it 12 hours between fill ups during a below zero day which it what I need since it is at least 12 hours from the time I leave in the morning and the time I return at night.

I have a Seton W100 boiler in an outside 8'x10' insulated building.  The exhaust is connected to a 8" diameter 16" double wall stove pipe (with a draft inducer which died) , connected to a stove pipe adapter to a 1'-8” double wall insulated chimney section going through the wall to a double wall insulated 8” T on the outside of the building.  From there I have 7-3' long 8" double wall insulated chimney sections going up for a total of 21' of chimney with no chimney cap.  I have a 2500 sq ft home with radiant heat in the slab and staple up under the second floor.

I the draft set for about 185-190 degrees with a 5 degree diff.  I set the diff lower because it would drop the water temp down to 120-130 degrees if the house was calling for heat when the draft re-opened.  If I keep the diff set lower it only drops to 140-160 degrees.

I have spoken to Fred and he says that I should not be having the problems that I am.  This is the first heating season that I have used it (it was brand new from Fred) and it has not been working very well the whole season.  I have had a couple of days that it works OK but it still creates a lot of ash and coals that I need to empty every 2-4 days.  Fred says that some people do not empty the ashes out all season.  I just can’t believe it after seeing mine.  I have also doused the tubes with charcoal lighter fluid which burned out my draft inducer.  It did seem to work a little better after that but now it seems to be back to normal (which is not very good) but it does provide enough heat during days down to -10 degrees below zero.  I have a couple of electric heaters in the house to supplement the wood heat.

I burn hardwoods, red and white oak, shagbark hickory, maple and elm.  Most are in the 8-14" diameter in size with some smaller pieces.  I did have a little better luck with some oak that was drying for a year or so but I still had to empty ashes out in 4 days.  I just cut down some dead elm and black cherry and it only lasted 2 days before the ashes and coals where up to the draft holes. 

My questions are:

Is there anyone having good luck with a Seton boiler?
What kind of wood are you using and how long has the wood been drying?
How much chimney do you have?
How often do you empty out ashes?
Can you make it 12 hours between fill ups?

If there is someone that has a Seton boiler working well in the WI/MN/IA area can I come see your setup?  I live in SE MN.  It would be nice to talk to someone who has one working and see what is needed to make these work properly.


----------



## Eric Johnson (Feb 26, 2008)

Welcome to the Boiler Room, Byrddog. We have several members with Seton W-100s. I bet you'll get all kinds of help here.


----------



## slowzuki (Feb 26, 2008)

I know someone will ask, what is your chimneys draft?  The Seton types are sensitive to this.  With you draft inducer turned off, is it blocking the draft?


----------



## steam man (Feb 26, 2008)

I don't have a Seton Boiler but will be looking at a clone in a few hours.

My thoughts: Based on your aged oak burning somewhat better should be a tell tale sign that your wood is too wet. Up to 14" wet rounds are hard to reduce to complete ash since they won't put out heat fast enough due to the surface area. I always get my fire up to temp first with small dry wood, stacked so the air can penetrate the stack of wood and really draft. The fire should roar like hell. With the boiler up to temp then you can put in big pieces for a longer burn. Don't overload it with wet stuff. I would also suggest if the wood is wet is to just start splitting it as you use it. Surface area makes a big difference and again, stack so the air can get to all the surfaces. Packing the stack tighter will give longer burn times but my experience with wet wood ended up like yours. I would also suggest to look at the tubes in the boiler to see how dirty they they are. It may well be clogged and restricting the draft flow. Check the whole chimney to be sure it is open.  I know this sounds like the obvious but my first year of burning was trial and error also. The Seton design is tried and true.

Go to go look at a boiler.......


----------



## ISeeDeadBTUs (Feb 26, 2008)

I burn in a GreenWood 100, which is very similar. 

#1 - what is the measured draft?

#2 - Are you saying that you get your Seton up to temp where the damper closes, you fill it with large hardwood rounds, then it will not go 12 hours when below zero?

In case you answer 'Yes' to #2 . . . um, you are not going to get 12 hours out of any properly sized unit when it's below zero.

Frustrating the first year can be . . .


----------



## byrddogwi (Feb 26, 2008)

I don't have a manometer so I do not have a way to measure the draft.  Where do you buy a manometer or where can one be borrowed?  According to Fred around 18' of 8" chimney is usually enough and I added an extra 3' to get to 21'.  Even when I used the darft inducer I had the same problem of having to empty ash out of the boiler every 2-4 days.  

I do have a good fire going when I put in the wood most of the time.  If the water temp is down below 120 then it takes a little longer to get back up to 180.  When I add wood when it is hot and I close the door it roars pretty good.  I have taken some of the screws that hold the back on and squirted charcoal fluid down there and it burned pretty hard.  In fact the double wall stove pipe turned red and burned out my draft inducer.  I may have to take the whole back off and see if I can get to the tubes and do a good cleaning.  I dread doing this because I will need to take apart all of the plumbing.  It is strange that it never worked good from day 1.  I had 18' of chimney then and only used it for a couple of days and added 3' to get a total of 21'.

Sounds as if these boilers are a lot pickier than I thought.  My brothers and my dad have the regular outside wood stoves,  the kind you see everywhere around here, and have very few problems with them.  I have inhaled so much smoke that people think I am a smoker (my clothes, hair and scalp smell like creasote and smoke which does not come off even after a couple of washes) and I cough so bad that I sometimes throw up when I fill it, especially when I have to empty the ashes out.  I am not ready to give up on the Seton yet but some days am awful close.

Every couple of days I probably shovel out 5-10 gallons of ash and coals to get it below the draft holes even though the inside of the door and the refractory is completely white.  One time the coals where up to the bottom of the door, when the wood turns to coals the boiler is useless.  When it warms up here I will may just bite the bullet and remove the stove pipe with the dead draft inducer and replace it to see if that helps and possibly remove the back.  

Has anyone just cut part of the back out so they could clean the tubes?

To reply to ISeeDeadBTUs:

#2-Yes, when the draft closes around 180 degrees I can add 12" oaks and some smaller filler wood and it won't make it 12 hours.  I guess I need a larger boiler if that is the case.  I am gone for at least 12 hours during the day and cannot fill it up in between.  The house temp can drop and it takes a lot more wood to bring it back up.  I may fire it 6:30pm and then put some more in at 10 or 11pm to make it through until 6:30am.


----------



## ISeeDeadBTUs (Feb 26, 2008)

What is your heat loss calc?

Because I seriously doubt that any gassifier is going to provide productive heat for 12 hours when it's below zero out. Sounds like what you wanted was something with a very large firebox that you could load very rarely. That's an OWB. How does the amount you put in a load compare to you father or brothers loads?

So . . . are you saying it actually burns fine once up to temp and loaded? (aka, 190*, then a full load, then leave the door shut till the water temps drop below 180*)

If you are leaving the door shut until the water drops below 180*, there should be very few coals and ashes left. Are you carefully raking the coals, then pushing them back below the air inlets?

Jimbo


----------



## antknee2 (Feb 26, 2008)

Wood fried  boilers are very tricky to master , just when you thing things are ok , some unforeseen variable bug's you . At the beginning of the heating season I tried burning very wet big oak logs , seemed ok they created allot of ash . In January I tapped into well seasoned oak smaller rounds some slits and I cant believe the difference in ash buildup , maybe it's travails out the flue pipe with the exhaust 70% less approximately. Their is a major design flaw in the Seton type boiler's , their is no way to clean the vertical tube in back . I had to do something , cut the side panel and cut a small section of the insulation to gain access to the tubes then running a 4' long brush through middle of of the tubes. After  proper reassembly  the Seton was like running a different boiler had to change some habits mainly using about 40% less wood . Sounds like you have a great setup and great wood . Do you have a adequate supply of make up air in the shed , Setons need massive amounts air to burn cleanly ?? Pics of your installation would be great. Just for the fun of it try splitting one your big round logs an immediately check the moisture content  , you will not believe your eyes . Hope this helps Anthony


----------



## byrddogwi (Feb 26, 2008)

My heat loss estimates were approximately 40K BTU/HR.

If I remember correct my brothers is rated around 300K.  I think my dads is around 250-300K also and he heats an old 2 story house and his garage (no insulation) when he needs to work in the shop.  They are a lot larger in firebox size (maybe 2x-3x) so they will last longer.  I know they use some dried and some green wood.

Yes, it usually burns good once it is up to temp and loaded.  I usually check the water temp in the bathroom (our heat comes in to the bathroom/utility room) every hour or so to see if the water is up above 160 degrees.  If it is lower I am either out of wood or the ashes/coals are getting above the draft holes.

I never have the door open unless I am adding wood or cleaning out the ashes.  The water temp is usually around 180-190 degrees down to a low of around 160 degrees.  Now that it is warmer, 20-30 degrees during the day, it usually is still up to around 180 degrees when I get home and when I leave in the morning.  I use a garden rake and a poker to level out the coals and then put in some wood.  The best luck I have had was with a dead aspen tree that was light as paper.  I used a couple pieces of it on the bottom and then used some oak rounds that were about 1.5 years old on top.  That combination kept 12 hours but it only got down to maybe -5 below zero and then got up to the 20s during the day.  Even then I had to empty out the boiler in about 4-5 days, maybe six.


----------



## byrddogwi (Feb 26, 2008)

Anthony D

Thanks for the info.  The shed is not that tight but I do have a 2 inch PVC pipe going outside next to the expansion tank but I don't know if that is enough air other than what leaks in from the door and any other not so tight spots.

I don't have a moisture meter either, maybe I need to buy one of those and a manometer.  I don't know if I am ready to cut a hole in the side since I may be trading up for a larger W-130.  I will call Fred to see if that it OK and won't affect how much he will give me toward the larger W-130.  I am just wondering if I want to stay with the Seton boiler or if I should cut my losses and try a Tarm or some other gasification boiler.  Do they all have issues/special needs?  I guess I was going on what Fred said that it could burn green wood, dried wood or anything in between.  Maybe I misunderstood him.

How often do you empty out the ashes in your W-130?  What size split oak rounds are you using that work good for you?  I like your idea of cutting a hole in the side and using a brush to clean out the tubes.  I still think I may have some buildup there.  Have your tried squirting and lighting the tubes with charcoal lighter or do you think elbow grease and a brush works better?  Do you think it is better using heat storage also?  Does that give you more time between fills?  Is there still heat left in the boiler when you fill it up?  How long is it between fill ups?


----------



## Willman (Feb 26, 2008)

Anthony, Does the pressure vessel tubing stay cleaner with well seasoned wood ?

Will


----------



## antknee2 (Feb 27, 2008)

Willman said:
			
		

> Anthony, Does the pressure vessel tubing stay cleaner with well seasoned wood ?
> 
> Will


I think it helps . If you make the boiler as air tight as possible , damper closed cycles tend put the wood in suspended animatinon mode , no smoke in the fire box just gray logs , very freaky . I think  smolder fires or leaky seals cause nasty build up on the HX tubes hidden in back of refractory wall . You cant judge what it looks like back there by the whiteness of the refractory walls , bummer . Anthony


----------



## sparke (Feb 27, 2008)

It is a bummer to hear all the bad things about Setons, Gw, and Adobe. I don't have any problems except getting rid of all the heat. Believe it or not an 80* house is getting tiresome  Even before the draft inducer with .03 to .04 it was running well. Does Seton, have a grate on the bottom of the boiler emptying into the ashpan? I wonder if the slight design differences are that important... I do have problems burning very dry split wood. It does not burn clean (explained in another thread). Green 8" to 12" Oak burns excellent. I dont know how dry rounds burn yet because I don't have any. Hopefully I will have my tank up and running soon so I will have a place to put the excess heat.


----------



## antknee2 (Feb 27, 2008)

Byrddog said:
			
		

> Anthony D
> 
> Thanks for the info.  The shed is not that tight but I do have a 2 inch PVC pipe going outside next to the expansion tank but I don't know if that is enough air other than what leaks in from the door and any other not so tight spots.
> 
> ...


The w- 130 is a beast it has 29 hx tubes , over 3000 pounds , can fit wood 27'' long by 16'' dia through the door , 15 cu ft fire box . That should keep you warm. Before you spend any money talk to Fred and really consider taking off entire side skin ,  only cut a small section of high density insulation to gain access to the tubes . After cleaning an proper reassembly you may not need a bigger boiler . This season I emptied the ash draw about five times , it's a big ash draw. Im afraid of the lighter fluid method . Heat storage is the only way for me with the W-130 ,the heat loads are to small a to random , other wise the w-130 would idle 90% of the time . With the beast and the storage system we fill the fire box once around 6:30 then before bedtime two big oak rounds, back breakers , I let the fire go out during the day.
PS check out a cool no smoke in the face trick . Garage door is open for-just  a  minute


----------



## sparke (Feb 27, 2008)

Oh ya, once the entire heating system has cooled down. The system takes a while to catch up. You are re-heating the refractory,and the water in the system. The vessel is small (about 10 gallons I think). So when that 10 gallons heats up to 180* the circ pump kicks in BUT it immediately puts cold water into the vessel dropping the temp down to 140* or so. My point is you can watch the temp gauge go to 180* then drop to 140* several times until all the water in the oil boiler and piping heat up. My oil gun is off so the water does not stay up to temp...


----------



## Willman (Feb 27, 2008)

> I think it helps . If you make the boiler as air tight as possible , damper closed cycles tend put the wood in suspended animation mode , no smoke in the fire box just gray logs , very freaky . I think smolder fires or leaky seals cause nasty build up on the HX tubes hidden in back of refractory wall . You cant judge what it looks like back there by the whiteness of the refractory walls , bummer . Anthony


Did you have a thread awhile back on upgrading the gaskets on your Seton ? Also you mention an ash drawer. Does the Seton have one, and what is on the bottom of the burn chamber to keep logs above drawer ?
Will


----------



## antknee2 (Feb 27, 2008)

Willman said:
			
		

> > I think it helps . If you make the boiler as air tight as possible , damper closed cycles tend put the wood in suspended animation mode , no smoke in the fire box just gray logs , very freaky . I think smolder fires or leaky seals cause nasty build up on the HX tubes hidden in back of refractory wall . You cant judge what it looks like back there by the whiteness of the refractory walls , bummer . Anthony
> 
> 
> Did you have a thread awhile back on upgrading the gaskets on your Seton ? Also you mention an ash drawer. Does the Seton have one, and what is on the bottom of the burn chamber to keep logs above drawer ?
> Will


The ash pan is 4 long by 16'' wide by 4'' deep . At the bottom close to the loading door is passage way cast into the refractory which is open to the ash pan . You have to leave enough ash in the boiler to refill the passage way after emptying pan . Makes a great fire proof seal. It's only a  4'' by 8'' rectangle , no problem with logs . Anthony
I found the thread 
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/11830/
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/11100/


----------



## DKerley (Feb 27, 2008)

Hello All,

Not to hijack the thread but can anyone answer the question regarding water storage and the Seton/Greenwood style boilers. I run a GW200 which may be a little bit oversized when it is warm out. I wondering how well does water storage work when you are running (and want to run) 24/7 and you need to place the heat somewhere?

Doug Kerley
GW200
Whitehorse, Yukon
Canada


----------



## Kemer (Feb 27, 2008)

Hello Everybody
New member here.Im from NE Pa. My brother and I are about to buy a seton type boiler each and are fowlling this thread closley.Anothey you seem to be very knowlegable on seatons.Would you buy one again? We both have the perfect set up for burrning wood but we don't want to make it any harder then it has to be and to be honost we are getting confused with all the opinions out there.We both want to heat 3500-5000 sqft.


----------



## steam man (Feb 27, 2008)

I looked at a Seton clone and 200K output yesterday. It was burning last fall cut big rounds while somewhat warm out and it was a creosote making monster. I believe it was oversized anyway. It could have used a good tube cleaning. There was no storage so the thing basically idled. The recovery rate will be affected by the dirty tubes. Given the proper sizing, right flow rate, clean tubes, proper air supply, heat storage, and some kind of boiler return protection to keep things hot, this style boiler should be a great design. It has been around for quite a while. I am seriously considering one.


----------



## ISeeDeadBTUs (Feb 27, 2008)

If you are not committed to storage, my opinion would be to slightly undersize ANY wood fired hydronic. Especially if you have a backup. Though the GW can close the damper and hold the wood for a  long time, that will tend to create creosote.

But back to the thread . . . .

It sounds like most everything is working correctly with your Seton except . . . . the ash build up. Honestly, my first year with the GW I was constantly bitchin about the lack of grate and constantly having to remove ashes. Well, if you store them somplace, then take a look at the accumulation at the end of the heating season, you will be amazed at how much charcoal you are removing along with the ash. Seriously, once a month is plenty for removing ash. Some things you may find helpful:

1)Wet punky wood, especially if placed directly on the coals, will accelerate ash build up.
2) Any time the outside temps get above 25, let the coals burn down. This may seem scary, especially without storage, but you MUST get comfortable letting the coals burn down.
3)A poker is for moving wood. DO NOT STIR ashes into the coals. Instead, use a spade (sod shovel). With the back of the blade, lightly rake the top layer of coals from the front to the back. Never rake the coals up over the air inlets.
4)Repeat this procedure to continue peeling back a new layer of coals, moving them to the back where they will use the incoming air to continue to produce heat. (Coals left in the front of the box will not produce heat, will burn out prematurly and cause build-up.
5) When burning down like this, do not add new wood until the coals are well below the bottom of the air inlets.
6)Now, to remove ash,rake the coals toward the front of the box. With the same shovel, push down through the ash bed right underneath the air inlets all the way to the bottom of the box. This will loosen up a gallon or so of ash. Some of it will come out in clumps. I believe this is from compressing wet wood and ash.
7)After remove the ash, you will now have a gully at the back of the box, under the air inlets, Carefully rake live hot coals from the front of the box to the back, filling in this gully.
8)Level the remaining coal bed.
9)Load new wood. Put small dry wood directly on the coals, then typical rounds on top.
10)Close door and walk away.

If someone had told me that last year, I would not have believed them. Of course, I burned Bass, pine, Aspen, andsuch last year. No question in my mind Oak is the way to go. It rarely gets punky.

Wind chills 'sposed to be below zero for about 36 hours . . . now's not a good time to be having problems with your unit . . .


----------



## byrddogwi (Feb 27, 2008)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> Wind chills 'sposed to be below zero for about 36 hours . . . now's not a good time to be having problems with your unit . . .



I hear you there.  Quite a few times I had problems when it was below zero for days.  Does not give you that warm fuzzy feeling at all.  It would not get up above 140 degrees and I had to keep emptying coals and ash out every other day.

Thanks for the tips, I need to cut a hole in the side and see what the back tubes look like.  Gotta go, work is calling.  Thanks for the tips everyone has given me so far, maybe this thing can work as good as advertised.  I will need to investigate the heat storage this year before the next heating season.


----------



## antknee2 (Feb 27, 2008)

Kemer said:
			
		

> Hello Everybody
> New member here.Im from NE Pa. My brother and I are about to buy a seton type boiler each and are fowlling this thread closley.Anothey you seem to be very knowlegable on seatons.Would you buy one again? We both have the perfect set up for burrning wood but we don't want to make it any harder then it has to be and to be honost we are getting confused with all the opinions out there.We both want to heat 3500-5000 sqft.


With my limited one season experience with a Seton with thermal storage from day one and proper  maintenance of the hx tubes , I feel very happy that on the coldest days the system can easily  keep up with all my heat loads , without wiping out all my  fire wood . The main selling point in my opinion is , reduced splitting , forgiving on wood moisture content , no noise , low wood usage if maintained , stays warm for days . Even with all the good things said if you have good dry wood split and well seasoned a real gasification boiler like a Orlan EKO would be a amazing machine to run , especially if you have neighbors . Hope this helps , let us know what you decide . Anthony


----------



## antknee2 (Feb 28, 2008)

D said:
			
		

> Hello All,
> 
> Not to hijack the thread but can anyone answer the question regarding water storage and the Seton/Greenwood style boilers. I run a GW200 which may be a little bit oversized when it is warm out. I wondering how well does water storage work when you are running (and want to run) 24/7 and you need to place the heat somewhere?
> 
> ...


Hi Doug  If you like the way the boiler runs now I guarantee you will be blown away by the benefits of a properly setup thermal storage system , especially with GW200 .  Anthony


----------



## DKerley (Feb 28, 2008)

Hi Anthony,

Thanks for the reply. So far I am happy with the GW200. Unfortunately, I am oversized when it is around freezing. I want to run 24/7 from the start of the season until the end of the season. Initially, I thought I would be able to start the fire mid September and shut it down the beginning of May. Now with the experience that I have had during a warm spell, it looks like it will shorten my season by a month on both sides (total 2 months less). I was wondering if storage would allow the earlier start-up and later shut-down. Additionally, I am considering adding solar DHW for the summer months if I were to go the storage route. Any thoughts?

Doug


----------



## Kemer (Feb 28, 2008)

Thanks for the info Anthony.After careful consideration I pretty sure We are going with a EKO 60.My next dession is if we should get a 40 or 60.I'm only heating 2600 Sqft now But If I heatrd everthing (garage,basement,bonus room) it would go to 5200sqft.I do plan on using storage soon.So the big question is will I be oversized If my daughter leaves and my wife and I deside to close the house off and go back to 2600 sqft.


----------



## antknee2 (Feb 28, 2008)

Kemer said:
			
		

> Thanks for the info Anthony.After careful consideration I pretty sure We are going with a EKO 60.My next dession is if we should get a 40 or 60.I'm only heating 2600 Sqft now But If I heatrd everthing (garage,basement,bonus room) it would go to 5200.I do plan on using storage soon.So the big question is will I be oversized If my daughter leaves and my wife and I deside to close the house off and go back to 2600 sqft.


A EKO sounds like a great decision if you are good at fire wood stock pile management , you need to be two three years ahead of your actual immediate needs , a well built and ventilated wood shed is the way to go . Maybe if you start a new topic  some of the EKO owners could help with your decision . Anthony


----------



## Eric Johnson (Feb 28, 2008)

You won't be oversized if you have adequate hot water storage (1,000 gallons or more), since that will allow you to fire the boiler at full capacity, just less frequently (or for a shorter duration) than if you had the 40. That's the theory, anyway. Look at storage as a battery: You run the charger (regardless of size) for as long as necessary to charge the battery, then unplug it and wait for the battery to run down before plugging it back in.


----------



## byrddogwi (Mar 3, 2008)

I broke down and removed the left side panel to clean out the tubes.  There was a lot of stuff in the bottom (probably about 3-4 inches) and between the tubes, see images, so I shop vacumed it out and then tried to remove junk from the pipes.  Then I vacumed it out again and put a strip of 600 degree caulk around the edge of the panel and screwed it back in.  Of course a bunch of screws twisted off so replaced them.  There are sure hard to drill out.  I also removed the burned out draft blower.

I have only had it going since late yesterday but it already seemed easier to get a fire going then before.  I did notice that there was some ash this morning but maybe it will not pile up like before.  Thanks for the all of the suggestions.


----------



## antknee2 (Mar 4, 2008)

Hi Doug  Thanks for posting a follow up &  with pics . Were you able to get a brush in-between vertical tubes ? Was it dry lose soot or baked on creosote ? Your a brave man venturing into a Seton. Hope the cleaning brings back lost efficiency . Anthony


----------



## byrddogwi (Mar 4, 2008)

I could not find a brush like you had Anthony D, but I did use a 3/4" brush made for cleaning copper tubes.  What worked Ok for me is I had a 3' length of 3/8" all thread rod with two nuts with a fender washer in between them at one end.  I used the other end to work between the sets of tubes and used the thread to kind of scrape off the creasote and stuff.  Then I worked the washer end in to get in between the rows.  

I ended up with about 3-4 inches of junk at the bottom of the stove that I vacumed out.  I could not get all of the stuff off of the tubes but I got a lot.  The rest I would almost need a hammer and chisel to remove the hard crusted on stuff.  After that I put 600 degree high temp silicone under the side panel and sealed up the back panel around the edges.  I have not done the rest yet, but will do them shortyly.

One thing I noticed was that there was no insulation on the bottom half of the back panel, maybe there is not supposed to be any there?  The one problem I had was my stove had sat for a year before I could install it and some mice had decided to use some of the insulation.  I don't know where they got it from but I thought that was some of the cause of my boiler problems.  It seems the junk I cleaned out was probably a lot of the problem.

So far it seems better but I only have a couple of days usage.  I will let you know how it works over the next week or two.  Thanks again


----------



## trailhound68 (Mar 20, 2008)

NEW TO THIS FORUM. SETON 100, 1ST SEASON. WORKING WELL, HOWEVER, BURNING A LOT OF WOOD, NOT GETTING THE 10+ HOURS I WAS HOPING FOR ON COLD DAYS AND NIGHTS. NO STORAGE! HARD WOOD ONLY MOSTLY SEASONED. BURNED SOME HARDWOOD STRAIGHT OFF THE STUMP AND HAD NO PROBLEMS. NO CREOSOTE IN STACK. BURNS CLEAN, EXCEPT WHEN FRESHLY FILLED, OF COURSE. I DON'T HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM WITH COAL BUILD-UP, BUT I DO HAVE TO CLEAN 4 GALLONS OF ASH OUT WEEKLY. WISH IT HAD AN ASH DUMP!
I'M HEATING 2700 SF, HOUSE AND GARAGE. BOILER IS OUT IN THE GARAGE. I WILL HAVE BURNED ABOUT 10 CORD PLUS BY THE TIME MID APRIL COMES.
I'VE FINALLY BEEN MONITORING THE DRAFT AND STACK TEMP WITH A HIGH TECH MANOMETER THAT WAS LOANED TO ME. 
IT WILL DRAW .06 TO .08 WHEN THE DAMPER IS CLOSED AND TEMP WILL BE ABOUT 250-325.
IT DRAWS .11 TO .14 OR MORE WHEN THE DAMPER IS OPEN AND TEMP WILL BE 400-500+. FILLED IT WITH DRY MAPLE ONCE AND HAD STACK TEMPS AS HIGH AS 666 DEG. AND .18 DRAFT. YIKES. SHE WAS RIPPIN'.
DOES IT HAVE TOO MUCH DRAFT? FRED SUGGESTS 06-07 BUT IS THAT OPEN OR CLOSED?
SHOULD I INSTALL A DAMPER? THE STRANGE THING IS I HAVE A 6" STAINLESS INSULATED 24 FOOT STACK WITH A REDUCER, 2 ELBOWS AND A TEE. MUCH LIKE FRED SHOWS IN HIS MANUAL;'HOW NOT TO'. NO DRAFT INDUCER.
I HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO TALK TO FRED, SO CAN ANYONE HELP ME TO FIGURE THE PROPER DRAFT WHEN OPEN AND WHEN CLOSED.
WHEN IT'S COLD THE DAMPER WILL NOT SPEND MUCH TIME CLOSED AT ALL. HOW MUCH WOULD WATER STORAGE HELP THAT?
LOOKING FORWARD TO TAKING A PANEL OFF TO CLEAN HER.


----------



## DKerley (Mar 20, 2008)

Hello Trailhound,

I found your post interesting as I have had some of the very same issues with a Greenwood i.e. high draft numbers, high flue temps and high wood consumption. The problem that I had with mine was partially attributed to an air leak at the air intake damper seal. This allowed the fire to continue burning when the air intake damper was closed. The draft for the Greenwood is supposed to be between -.05 and -.07 when the damper is open. My flue gas temps are on the high side due to excessive build-up on the heat transfer tubes but should be around 350 to 400 when mid cycle during the burn. The temps are initially higher during the first stage of the burn as the pitch + bark flash (I burn spruce and pine). The flue gas temperatures that I see when the damper is closed are usually between 100 - 150. I still have some draft indicating on the nanometer when the damper is closed but I don't think it is from any more leaks in the GW, but leaks in the chimney pipe as mine is not sealed and does have a draft inducer in-line which has an opening in it. I have looked in at the fire when the damper has been closed for some time, to see how well the fire has been shut-down. Mine usually is a very light grey with no visible signs of smoke, flame or glow from the charcoal. I was told to be extremely careful when opening the door with the damper closed as the rapid injection of air could send an explosive flame out the door. So far no singed (sp) hair.


----------



## ISeeDeadBTUs (Mar 20, 2008)

Because I am about to get my ass chewed out tonight by a bunch of pizzed of peeps, I am pulling no punches on my comments here, while I can ;-) 

You people that are removing gallons of ash weekly . . .

You are either
1)not letting live coals complete the burning process,or
2) you are burning punky, wet wood.

With the warmer temps outside, I have been putting one layer of semi-seasoned red oak down, then criss-crossing WET oak/maple/aspen and a little pine. I can fog about 5 acres for two hours after closing the load door, but it heats fine and still goes 8 hours. And most importantly, the ash build up is minimal. PETA hasn't showed up yet to complain about the air quality for the bears, coyotes and rattlesnakes. I'd just tell them how the air is dry during winter, so I am just running an humidifier for the furry beasts.

I would estimate that anything more than a gallon of clumped ash in a two-week period is a problem.

Jimbo


----------



## trailhound68 (Mar 20, 2008)

DKerley,  Thanks for the reply. Just as I had suspected, I think I have too much draft, even on a 6" flue! My draft readings are never below .06 when it's closed! Can anyone else confirm this for me? Too bad the season is almost over (except in the Yukon I bet). Anyhow, I can simply install a damper in the single wall pipe behind the boiler, I'm thinking it will make a big difference.
Here I thought it wouldn't draft enough on the 6". My exhaust piping is pretty tight, corrigated elbows, My thought is, like you said, that the boiler itself leaks and needs to be tightened up around all the seams. I have not yet cleaned my heat XC, but it does have grey ash built up on it where I can see. Probably black further towards the back. Any advice for accessing the heat XC?
And by the way, if your not careful she will "BURP" at you without notice. A big beautiful blue flame will head your way if conditions are right. I have also seen the gasses catch and burp out the intake as well.


----------



## 2.beans (Mar 22, 2008)

i've read some of your posts. seems like most everyone is burning oak, i mix mine with dry dry pine for the shoter burn times. the seton boiler was designed to run on soft wood seeing how hardwood is scarce in montana.i get minimal ash/coal and avearage 10 hours on pine. my father in law runs on dry pine only and goes 12 hours between fillings [his house is smaller and he has cleaned his out once this year]. i added a barametric dampner to my boiler and his and now it rarley  hits the dump zone and cut wood consumption down considerible. the water temp differential should be set at 10 degrees so that the boiler will run longer and gasify. also with a 6" chiminey you will get draft but you wont get the volume  of air through the boiler. im on my second year with the seton boiler and have learned alot from fred and from trial and lots of error.


----------



## trailhound68 (Mar 23, 2008)

2.beans,  I think you've got it right. Even though I have the required draft reading, I don't have the volume of air that she requires. I got proof of this when I did install a damper in my 6" exhaust and throttled it down to 0.06 wc. She would not make enough temp to satisfy the demand and the intake damper would not close. So, does anyone know what the draft measurement should be, when open, with a 6" flue? The reason I have a 6" is because of a previous boiler that was in its place. I had long discussions w/ Fred before I bought my W-90. He assured me it would work considering the 24' of SS insulated stack I have. Even with the damper and a little restriction I still have stack temps to 500+. I'm not sure if thats because I'm taking the draft measurement between the exhaust outlet and the damper. Right now I'm reading 0.10 wc and 516 deg. OPEN. When closed I draw 0.06 w/ 200 deg stack temp.


----------



## 2.beans (Mar 23, 2008)

get your draft down to .04 to .05 when the boiler is running at its max. that should also lower your exhaust temps. i beleive you are measuring draft at the correct spot. what is your differential set at?


----------



## trailhound68 (Mar 23, 2008)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> If you are not committed to storage, my opinion would be to slightly undersize ANY wood fired hydronic. Especially if you have a backup. Though the GW can close the damper and hold the wood for a  long time, that will tend to create creosote.
> 
> But back to the thread . . . .
> 
> ...


----------



## trailhound68 (Mar 23, 2008)

As I mentioned, if I damp it down to .04-.05 it will not create enough heat to get the water above 165 deg. Open the damper just a bit and it will reach top temp. My diff. is set at 15 deg. It cycles between 165 and 195 deg. I.E. 185 deg. setting with 15 diff. Should I lower my diff to 10deg?


----------



## 2.beans (Mar 23, 2008)

id set your diff at 10 and have the draft shut off at 180.whats your exhaust temp when your draft is at .04? how tall is your chiminey? do you have any more pipe?


----------



## heaterman (Mar 23, 2008)

Excess ash is a result of incomplete combustion plain and simple. If your boiler is in an 8x10 shed, the first thing I would suspect is a lack of combustion air. You need 1 square inch of opening for every 4000 BTU's of input. So if your boiler is rated at 100K Btu's you need a minimum free area of 25 sq inches. This is especially critical on a natural draft type unit. Your chimney can't draw from a room that's already in a negative pressure state.  No draft=no air=no fire=no heat=creosote/ash

The second thing that usually contributes to ash is green or unseasoned wood. It's a commonly perpetuated myth from the OWB salesmen that you can burn green wood. True you can burn it but why waste 1/2 the heat content of the fuel evaporating moisture from it? 

I'm betting that one or both of those factors will be your culprit.


----------



## 2.beans (Mar 24, 2008)

no doubt you need plenty of intake air, and green wood doesnt work as well but your exhaust temp is at 500 degrees. the exhaust should  be closer to 350. do you run a heat exchanger?


----------



## byrddogwi (Mar 24, 2008)

heaterman said:
			
		

> Excess ash is a result of incomplete combustion plain and simple. If your boiler is in an 8x10 shed, the first thing I would suspect is a lack of combustion air. You need 1 square inch of opening for every 4000 BTU's of input. So if your boiler is rated at 100K Btu's you need a minimum free area of 25 sq inches. This is especially critical on a natural draft type unit. Your chimney can't draw from a room that's already in a negative pressure state.  No draft=no air=no fire=no heat=creosote/ash
> 
> The second thing that usually contributes to ash is green or unseasoned wood. It's a commonly perpetuated myth from the OWB salesmen that you can burn green wood. True you can burn it but why waste 1/2 the heat content of the fuel evaporating moisture from it?
> 
> I'm betting that one or both of those factors will be your culprit.



Heaterman,

I have a 8'x10' shed that my w-100 sits in.  If that is rated at 100K BTU I need a 25 sq in of air inlet.  Should I just cut a 10"x3" hole in the wall and put some wire mesh (how much bigger does the hole need to be since the wire mesh would restrict some flow?) to keep rodents and bugs out?  Is that what you did or do you have some other fresh air intake?  Right now I have a 2" PVC pipe and a leaky shed.  I have left the door of the building open and it does not seem to make much of a difference in how it burns.

I have been having problems with excessive ash buildup.  I get around .05-.07" WC on the manometer with 21' of 8" insulated chimney.  I have been using some dead american elm we have a lot of dying elms) and some green wood (black cherry, white oak, red oak, hickory, popple, and maple).  I have been raking the coals and I usually empty a small scoop every day when I move the coals to the front.  I then scoop out some ash (maybe a coffee can) and push the coals to the back and even them out.  I stick the driest wood on the bottom and then put the next layer which is green on top of it.  I guess I will know more next year when I have some drier wood.  Right now I have to completely empty it out about once every 4 days.  If I understand everyone my elm, and other wood,  must be a lot wetter than I think.  I don't have a moisture meter but I will be buying one this year.


----------



## byrddogwi (Mar 25, 2008)

I was outside yesterday evening and it was windy (15-25 MPH winds) and I noticed the darft would go up to .12" WC from a low of around .05" WC with the draft open.  Then the draft closed and I notice that I would still have .04" to .10" WC when the draft was closed.  My gut says that it should drop down to almost nothing, maybe .01-.03" WC when the draft is closed.  Is that correct?  My manometer is connected to the exhaust pipe about 8-10 inches from where it connects in the stove.  When I open the door and look in the wood is dark and not burning.

Should I be seeing that high of draft when the draft is closed?  If not I need to seal up the stove a lot better as Anthony explained.  I did seal the back of the stove and the left panel that I took off but I did not seal the draft motor flap, the front door, the top or the right side.  Could air leaks be related to the ash buildup or is that just the moisture of the wood?

Thanks again for any answers.  One day this boiler make work as good as they say it should.  I thought it would come sealed up since it was brand new, maybe I just got one that was built on a Monday.


----------



## antknee2 (Mar 25, 2008)

Byrddog said:
			
		

> I was outside yesterday evening and it was windy (15-25 MPH winds) and I noticed the darft would go up to .12" WC from a low of around .05" WC with the draft open.  Then the draft closed and I notice that I would still have .04" to .10" WC when the draft was closed.  My gut says that it should drop down to almost nothing, maybe .01-.03" WC when the draft is closed.  Is that correct?  My manometer is connected to the exhaust pipe about 8-10 inches from where it connects in the stove.  When I open the door and look in the wood is dark and not burning.
> 
> Should I be seeing that high of draft when the draft is closed?  If not I need to seal up the stove a lot better as Anthony explained.  I did seal the back of the stove and the left panel that I took off but I did not seal the draft motor flap, the front door, the top or the right side.  Could air leaks be related to the ash buildup or is that just the moisture of the wood?
> 
> Thanks again for any answers.  One day this boiler make work as good as they say it should.  I thought it would come sealed up since it was brand new, maybe I just got one that was built on a Monday.



Draft readings with the boiler shut down are  very confusing , I am still trying to figure that one out . I will keep my eye on the readings tonight an keep you posted . Anthony


----------



## 2.beans (Mar 25, 2008)

i added a gasket to my draft door also, dont know if it helped. if you cut the draft down to much it will smoke out the door when a storm comes in. my draft will be between .04 .05 when the draft closes then seems to drop more when the chiminey cools down. i dont think the wind blowing is the actual draft through your stove just in the pipe. i asked fred what the draft should be be draft door shut he saidit really didnt matter. i did have a flap inside my exhaust pipe that ran off the draft door and when the door shut would give no draft at all, but on rainy days it would smoke real bad out of everywhere, so i went barameteric. that was freds advice even though he said  in his manual not to use one. it does build creasote on the dampner once and a while not bad though. i you can try some real dry pine when your coals build up. that will knock them down. thats what i do when the build up.


----------



## antknee2 (Mar 26, 2008)

[quote author="2.beans" date="1206502830"]i added a gasket to my draft door also, dont know if it helped. if you cut the draft down to much it will smoke out the door when a storm comes in. my draft will be between .04 .05 



The problem with adding a gasket to the draft door is it designer to close  metal to metal , making a super sealing draft door is very tricky without checking your work.    By using negative air smoke testes with the help of a in-line draft inducer is perfect , with load door closed and damper closed , anywhere the smoke gets sucked in or just disappears you have found  a leak .  Hope this helps look close at the pics you will see the top of the door  has multi layers that do not go in-between they touch the top edge of the draft door , when closed  . Every boiler will be different an some may not need any work . Anthony


----------



## 2.beans (Mar 26, 2008)

i used a flat automotive exhaust gasket and glued it to the flap with high temp rtv then let the draft door shut and left it shut till dry. the whole 12x24 gasket sheet is like 18 dollars.


----------



## trailhound68 (Mar 30, 2008)

[quote author="heaterman" date="1206324097"]Excess ash is a result of incomplete combustion plain and simple. If your boiler is in an 8x10 shed, the first thing I would suspect is a lack of combustion air. You need 1 square inch of opening for every 4000 BTU's of input. So if your boiler is rated at 100K Btu's you need a minimum free area of 25 sq inches. This is especially critical on a natural draft type unit. Your chimney can't draw from a room that's already in a negative pressure state.  No draft=no air=no fire=no heat=creosote/ash

I've taken draft readings with the door closed, open a little and full open. I found no difference in draft reading at anytime.


----------



## 2.beans (Mar 31, 2008)

do have any more pipe? if not can you add some  cheap pipe to the top to see if you can draw more when draft is open and less when is  shut? have you tried any dry wood?


----------



## trailhound68 (Mar 31, 2008)

Beans,  I have currently 24'+ of 6" SS insulated stack. I don't think low draft is an issue. In fact I had pretty high draft readings and have recently installed a damper. The draft changes noticably as I open and close the damper. Turns out that if I close the damper too much she will not build enough heat to close the inlet and idle. In the beginning of the season I thought I might not have enough draft because of the 6" flue. So I added a 4' section to the top and things improved.


----------



## 2.beans (Apr 1, 2008)

when i started playing with the draft on mine and added a damper i could get the draft to .04 - .05 w 18' of 8" pipe. the boiler wouldnt come to temp fast like it did w/o the damper. so i told fred this and he advised that i add more pipe. so i did and it worked still leaving the draft at .04 - .05 . the stove recovers faster. what kind of load do you have against the boiler?


----------



## trailhound68 (Apr 1, 2008)

Beans, Mine won't come up to temp with that low draft reading. Big difference, I think, is that I have a 6" flue. The same draft reading will not produce the same volume of air through the stove.
I do have a sizable load, maybe more than I thought. Seems to work better though with the damper, not as much ash. Somewhere, someone had posted a comment about alot of ash built up in the exhaust, almost choking off the draft. I had a similar situation where the ash was in the exhaust pipe to where it was restricted to about half. She was still breathing though, better of course when I cleaned it.


----------



## 2.beans (Apr 3, 2008)

trailhound68 said:
			
		

> Beans, Mine won't come up to temp with that low draft reading. Big difference, I think, is that I have a 6" flue. The same draft reading will not produce the same volume of air through the stove.
> I do have a sizable load, maybe more than I thought. Seems to work better though with the damper, not as much ash. Somewhere, someone had posted a comment about alot of ash built up in the exhaust, almost choking off the draft. I had a similar situation where the ash was in the exhaust pipe to where it was restricted to about half. She was still breathing though, better of course when I cleaned it.


if it is easy to do id try a piece of cheap pipe in the top, i know the theory, but it helped me. how wet is your wood? are you using to much btu drying the wood? do you have access to dry pine logs? those really work good. thats all my father inlaw uses and gets 12 hours out of it, and has cleaned his out once this year.


----------



## trailhound68 (Apr 3, 2008)

Beans,  more pipe on top of my stack is not an option. My wood for the most part has been seasoned, not green, I did burn some green wood straight off the stump, no problem. But I don't make a habit of it. Seasoned hard wood only. She seems to rip through any really dry wood I put to her in no time. As for dry pine, I don't think it would last nearly as long or produce the amount of BTU's as would hard wood.


----------



## 2.beans (Apr 4, 2008)

is your first floor a concrete slab? how many zones do have? ive read that red pine has more btu per pound than oak. ive also read that oak has the most btu. i can go 8 hours on a cold day with white pine heating 3650 square foot house, 1350 square foot basement, 700 square foot garage and a hot tub. all radiant. id try some dry pine.when the oak i have was real green it would build up coals. id ask fred if you need more draft with a smaller chimney. im sure hes seen this before.


----------



## Rick Stanley (Apr 4, 2008)

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/heating_value_wood

   I have a lot of Oak and Pine and there's no comparison. Check this link.


----------



## trailhound68 (Apr 4, 2008)

Beans, I have conventional baseboard, I have radiant in one part of the house and the garage. I have 60year old house, part has no foundation(brrrr). I have new addition, I have large insulated garage. My boiler is out at the garage 80' from the house. My system is all over the map. Is your boiler in your basement? If so, that makes a HUGE difference where heating the house is concerned.


----------



## 2.beans (Apr 4, 2008)

my boiler is 250 feet from my house. and for the pine to oak per pound btu's ive read in a beckett boiler instruction book that red pine had a higher btu output per weight. so i dont know who to beleive. all i know is i get pine pulp for free and it works real well. seton boilers were designed around soft wood.


----------



## Gooserider (Apr 5, 2008)

2.beans said:
			
		

> my boiler is 250 feet from my house. and for the pine to oak per pound btu's ive read in a beckett boiler instruction book that red pine had a higher btu output per weight. so i dont know who to beleive. all i know is i get pine pulp for free and it works real well. seton boilers were designed around soft wood.



Looking at btu values can be confusing when comparing different sources.  One thing to keep in mind that will help to clarify them is that there is a difference between BTU's per weight of wood and BTU's per volume...  All wood has about the same amount of BTU's per POUND of wood, with only minor variations, some of which put the pitchy softwoods higher.  However the density of the woods varies a lot, as in how many pounds of wood will fit in a given volume, with oak being among the denser woods.  If you look at the weights for a cord of a given wood type, you will see a huge difference, and the more pounds per volume the more BTU's.

As I recall, seasoned oak is around 2800lbs / cord, while pine is around 2000 lbs cord - both have the same BTU's per pound, thus you would be getting more potential BTU's out of oak simply because it's heavier wood.  Given the same size firebox, you will be able to stuff more potential BTU's into the box with oak than with pine since the critical value is BTU's per volume.

Gooserider


----------



## ISeeDeadBTUs (Apr 7, 2008)

I'll take the mystery outa' it for ya . . . I'll trade you all my pine/hemlock/apsen pound for pound for your oak. In Upstate NY we can turn a full load of pine into about an hour of heat . . . as long as no one takes a shower during that hour. People who use that stupid cliche 'A pound of pine gives as much heat as a pound of oak' obviously have either never burned oak or can't get any for the foreseeable future.


----------



## Gooserider (Apr 7, 2008)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> I'll take the mystery outa' it for ya . . . I'll trade you all my pine/hemlock/apsen pound for pound for your oak. In Upstate NY we can turn a full load of pine into about an hour of heat . . . as long as no one takes a shower during that hour. People who use that stupid cliche 'A pound of pine gives as much heat as a pound of oak' obviously have either never burned oak or can't get any for the foreseeable future.



Actually a pound of pine WILL give as much heat as a pound of oak, the trouble is you will only be able to FIT half as many pounds of pine into your firebox at a time as you would with oak.  Further, I'd suspect that since pine burns much faster, it might put out more heat during it's peak combustion times than the heat exchangers in the boiler can handle, so you'd have more heat going up the stack instead of getting absorbed and sent into your house...  I have no direct experience, but I suspect that one would need to change the way the boiler was setup in terms of air supplies and so forth in order to optimally burn pine instead of oak and vice versa...

Gooserider


----------

