# 511 KWH on the last electric bill. Can you beat that?



## Sandor

OK, got the last bill in the mail. EVERYTHING in the house is electric.

I live with 'da women, and two girls, 12 and 16.

We used 511 Kilowatt hours last month. The bill was 52 bucks.

This is the lowest bill we have got in the almost two years I have been living here. As a side note, I installed a dishwasher for the women for her birthday 3 months ago. She said it would raise the bill, I said it will lower it. I win.

Deregulation of the electricity market is going to hit Virginia this year, so tightening up electric use is a priority.

Electric, for the convenience it provides, is an incredible bargain.


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## mayhem

Around 500-550 kwh is my normal winter usage (read highest of the year due to more dark hours and colder temperatures running the boiler more often).  That said I haven't had a $50 electric bill since probably 2001.  We aren't suffering by candellight or anything and we watch plenty of TV/listen to the stereo, use the hair dryer, dishwasher, electric clothes dryer, ceiling fans, leave the computer on for hours, etc.  What I have a really hard time figuring out is how on earth other people must live when they use 511kwh in a month and think its low.  I'm not slamming you with that, I'm genuinely curious.

To be fair though, my heat/hot water system is an oil burner, so I'm sure it uses considerably less energy that your electric heat/hot water system...so kudos to you for being able to keep the energy consumption that low.  How did you do it?


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## ChrisN

My last electric bill said I used about 480kwh.  That's the lowest I've ever had for my 2300sf house.  I think the biggest savings I see is in the use of CFL's.  we don't have AC, and the water is heated off the boiler.  I've found that the April to June time of year is my lowest electric usage period of the year.  Sandor, watch out for that deregulation, my 480kwh cost me about $90.00 in CT, where prices run around $0.18/ kwh.  UGH   :grrr:


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## begreen

Our house is now total electric too. Our bill was about twice that, right around 1100kw. With lower electric rates I hadn't noticed, but even in August we used 900kw. How is this so? Very little was running during that time other than hotwater and the washer/dryer. We have cfls too, front loading washer, no AC, etc. I'm going to put the kilowatt meter on the computer systems to see how much they're drawing, but this seems pretty high in comparison to what others are reporting and we keep our usage pretty low.


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## Highbeam

I have a feeling that the comcast modem box which turns coax cable into telephone, internet, and television burns a few watts BG. Lots of lights on that thing and an onboard battery that it keeps charged. I thought you mentioned you were on comcast as I am.

My electric bill is consistently 100$ even through the cold part of the winter, not sure how low it will go in the summer or what that translates to in KWH. I have three females in the house too. Hah!


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## velvetfoot

I figure maybe 300.
May included my effort of electric chainsawing the log pile.  

From the utility web site:

5/30/2007 NYSEG 360     
4/25/2007 CUSTOMER 273     
3/29/2007 NYSEG 296     
2/26/2007 CUSTOMER 315     
1/30/2007 ESTIMATED 38     
12/28/2006 CUSTOMER 189     
11/29/2006 NYSEG 479     
10/24/2006 CUSTOMER 227     
9/28/2006 NYSEG 364     
8/25/2006 CUSTOMER 537     
7/28/2006 ESTIMATED 289     
6/30/2006 CUSTOMER 351     
5/26/2006 NYSEG 338     
4/27/2006 CUSTOMER 261     
3/27/2006 NYSEG 469     
2/17/2006 CUSTOMER 305


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## begreen

Highbeam said:
			
		

> I have a feeling that the comcast modem box which turns coax cable into telephone, internet, and television burns a few watts BG. Lots of lights on that thing and an onboard battery that it keeps charged. I thought you mentioned you were on comcast as I am.
> 
> My electric bill is consistently 100$ even through the cold part of the winter, not sure how low it will go in the summer or what that translates to in KWH. I have three females in the house too. Hah!



I don't understand how we would be so consistently higher with the numerous energy saving improvements we've done. Now I'm wondering if PSE meters are off. But I suspect it would be the electric clothes dryer, hot water heater and the refrigerator in that order. We'll see, we're running on the clothesline for drying now. Couldn't do that last summer with all the construction. 

I'll put the meter on the entire computer system (at the UPS plug). This covers the modem, computer, screen et al.


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## velvetfoot

I was surprised that the tv and dvr took about 35 watts all the time.  I have them on a timer now (that programmable HF unit I mentioned elsewhere).  The TV is still on plenty in the evenings.  We heat our water with oil, but have an electric dryer.  We only have a laptop for computer and that hibernates.  We do have a radon fan (15 watts) running all the time and a well pump.  All compact flourescent bulbs.  The washer's a new front loader.  There are only two of us, although the wife takes a daily bath).

BG, the construction guys probably used a lot of electric too.  The electric hw heater probably is a big draw.


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## Eric Johnson

I share your frustration, BG, here on the other coast.

Our usage is usually around 1,100 kw per month, no matter what we do. In the winter we heat our hot water exclusively with wood, so you'd think it would go down compared to our (current) use of the electric water heater. We don't have AC and the clothes dryer is gas. But it doesn't.

Go away for two weeks and leave one light on in the house and--you guessed it--no drop in the electric bill. Have company stay for a week and everyone's using more gadgets, hot water and lights and--you know the routine--no change in the bill.

How can this be? Sometimes I think our utility just has us pegged for 1,100 kw, and that's that.


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## velvetfoot

That's weird.  Maybe some are estimated like mine (seems like they come out every other month.)
You could do your own readings as a sanity check.


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## DiscoInferno

We got down to 550 kWhr last month, and a little lower when we're gone for most of the month in the winter so the lights and A/C aren't running.  Typical non-cooling-season bill since replacing most lights with CFLs is around 600 (down from 900 pre-CFL).  I also turned off a couple of computers that had been running 24/7, and a printer that hadn't been used in 5 years.  I'm sure there are lots more hidden power sinks, I need to do some sort of audit.  Water heater and range (and the furnace I no longer use) are gas, so that bill is always around $40.

This month the A/C was going most of the time, so we were up to 980 kWhr, which costs a cool $150 in these parts.  We've been as high as 1360 in the last year, but that was pre-CFL.


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## mayhem

CFL's make a difference no doubt about it.  Don't forget to check with your local hardware stores for cfls that are subsidized...you won't often them discounted at the big box stores.  I get mine for $1 each and the color is warmer than the ones HD and Wally World sells.

The electric dryer is possibly the biggest energy hog you can turn on in your house short of electric heat or hot water.  When its running it uses a massive amount of electricity to not heat the clothes, but also to pressureize the drum and spin it.  On high heat I wouldn't be surprised to see 2000-2500w consumption...when you consider it may take as long as an hour at this setting to dry a full load you're looking at 2-2.5 kwh per load.  Do 2 loads per week, every week and you've accounted for 16kwh...you're getting near 5% of your bill there.

Fridge is a big eater too...make sure to keep those coils clean and the exhaust clear too.  Mine seems to run incessantly...its only a couple years old and its done it seince new...we don't stand with the door open or anything and I've got the energy settings as low as they'll go, but it still runs constantly.  I probably ought to replace the seal on the door as I'm sure it wears out and I've probably got a few pinhole leaks on it.


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## begreen

Well I have to give Sandor and Disco a congratulations and job well done. If you're doing this with an all electric house, that's great.


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## DiscoInferno

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Well I have to give Sandor and Disco a congratulations and job well done. If you're doing this with an all electric house, that's great.



Don't give me too much credit (note above I'm not all electric like Sandor).  Other than buying CFL's I haven't really done much beside unplugging stuff I wasn't using anyway.  My central AC unit came with the house and is probably 25 years old now, I'm guessing something like 6-8 SEER (which is bad; modern units are 14+).  But it still doesn't cost enough to justify replacing it on $$ alone, and it just won't die even though the outside fan died last year (a $30 part I replace myself) and the compressor overheated repeatedly.  I also have two ancient fridges and a newer dishwasher with the "temperature boost" option on.  House is 2000sf, not terribly well sealed or insulated.

In short, I'm a little amazed to be on the low side of average on here.


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## bruce56bb

05/23/2007   29   Meter Read    1325  $94.13     
  04/24/2007   29   Meter Read    1055  $72.26     
  03/26/2007   32   Meter Read    1099  $77.53     
  02/22/2007   28   Meter Read    1131  $78.49     
  01/25/2007   34   Meter Read    1471  $95.95     
  12/22/2006   31   Meter Read    1312  $83.00     
  11/21/2006   31   Meter Read    1205  $81.68     
  10/21/2006   30   Meter Read    1168  $83.45     
  09/21/2006   30   Meter Read    2544  $197.27     
  08/22/2006   31   Meter Read    2020  $168.41     
  07/22/2006   30   Meter Read    2584  $214.18     
  06/22/2006   30   Meter Read    2241  $171.66     
  05/23/2006   29   Meter Read    1274  $104.71


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## DiscoInferno

Well, you sure beat him!

(0.07-0.08/kWhr must be nice...)


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## Sandor

mayhem said:
			
		

> Around 500-550 kwh is my normal winter usage (read highest of the year due to more dark hours and colder temperatures running the boiler more often).  That said I haven't had a $50 electric bill since probably 2001.  We aren't suffering by candellight or anything and we watch plenty of TV/listen to the stereo, use the hair dryer, dishwasher, electric clothes dryer, ceiling fans, leave the computer on for hours, etc.  What I have a really hard time figuring out is how on earth other people must live when they use 511kwh in a month and think its low.  I'm not slamming you with that, I'm genuinely curious.
> 
> To be fair though, my heat/hot water system is an oil burner, so I'm sure it uses considerably less energy that your electric heat/hot water system...so kudos to you for being able to keep the energy consumption that low.  How did you do it?



Well Mayhem,

I figure the water heater runs about 2 hours a day, at 4500 watts, thats 9 KWH/day.

Multiply that by 30, and its about 270 KWH.

511-270=241KWH.

So, If I go 100 percent solar hot water, (or used oil like you), my actual usage would be about 241 KWH.

Folks, eliminating the electric clothes dryer was worth about 30-40 bucks a month, at 10 cent a KWH.


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## TMonter

I typically use between 500 and 600 kWh per month here.

The best way to find electric sinks is to buy or borrow a load meter and figure the usage of the devices in your house.

Our biggest user is the dryer and since we cloth diaper, that causes the bill to be higher.


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## BrotherBart

In non-cooling months we run around 600-700 a month spiking a little over 1,000 in August. Monthly average over the last twenty-four months is 777 a month. With my office being here and the servers and comm rack up and running from seven to ten or so every day, monster UPS units 24/7, and my invalid wife's TV and computer running twenty-four seven to keep her company that ain't bad. That and her upstairs refrigerator. 

All electric here. It is a ten mile drive to the nearest gas pipeline and I wouldn't have that stuff in my house anyway.


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## Gunner

357 KWH for the month of May...sounds good, but all the big stuff is gas(range,dryer,water heater)

That's $18 worth of electricity
          $25 to "deliver" it
          and $2.50 each for a regulatory charge and a debt retirement charge.


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## WarmGuy

We're down to about 300 KWH/month (gas stove and dryer), used to be a lot higher.  Here are some of the things we did:

1. By timing the revolution of the disk in your electricity meter, you can calculate the KW that you're actually using at that moment.  I had a post on some other forum on how to do this, but it's been archived.  You can call your power company to figure it out.

I turned off everything in the house, unplugged the fridge, and found that we were still using 160 watts.  

2. Bought a Kill-a-watt meter on Ebay to find out what was contributing to this.  The image shows the results.  The cost figures use the top-tier rate of 17.625 cents/KWH.

3. We have a number of these things on power strips now, so, for example the printer is totally off when not being used, and we turn off the power strip for the modem and router every night.  

4. When we go on vacation, we turn off (with power strips), just about everything but the fridge and DVR, and always see a nice drop in the bill for that month.

5. We're almost totally fluorescent.

6. We stopped leaving the computer on all the time.  Also, we now have two laptops and no desktop.  

Now that we're below baseline, we only pay 11.4 cents/KWH.


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## n1st

Warmguy,

Boy you sound a lot like us right down to the laptops, killawatt, and gas dryer/stove.  We're doing about 4kwh/year.  Some additional items (yea, you've got to really be into conservation)...

Disconnect the doorbell xformer (helps keep the salesmen at bay) if not needed.

Put the garage  door(s) on a power strip.  Turn on in the morning, off when you close the door in the evening.

Watch out for any x10 phantoms.

Put all TVs, stereos, etc. on a power strip and shut off over-night.


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## Sandor

N1ST said:
			
		

> Disconnect the doorbell xformer (helps keep the salesmen at bay) if not needed.



Funny!

That doorbell light was always glowing. I found the box in a closet, and it was "warm". If its warm, its using electric. So I disconnected the whole mess. I guess it all adds up.


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## begreen

I switched to a wireless battery powered door alarm a couple years ago. Works great.


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## mayhem

Just got my June electric bill.  408kwh consumed.  We stopped using the dryer awhile ago.  We're still about 2/5 incadescent, PC (and its speakers, modem, printer, etc) is on a master power off switch, but the 2 crt tv's and DVR/DISH box are always plugged in as is the stereo/VCR/DVD.  Coffee pot, microwave and stove, basement heateed floor water pump, boiler control system...all on all the time.  Probably an easy 75-100 khw stuck in there per month...just have to do wihtout some minor conveniences.

Anyone know if there is a mechanical timer power switch?  I'm thinking about things like the DVR that have to download system and programming updates overnight, which is why the need to be left plugged in...if I could switch it all off at night and then set the mechanical timer to power it all on at like 6:30 or so.


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## begreen

Yes, I have a couple of them made by Intermatic. 
http://www.intermatic.com/Default.asp?action=subcat&sid=113&cid=43&did=3


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## velvetfoot

I've said this before, but I bought a cheap digital timer from Harbor Freight for my DVR and TV.  http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=95205  They download updates from over the air TV Guide.  The timer can have a different schedule for each day in the week and it doesn't forget its programming after a power failure (don't know for how long though).


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## jjbaer

N1ST said:
			
		

> Warmguy,
> 
> Boy you sound a lot like us right down to the laptops, killawatt, and gas dryer/stove.  We're doing about 4kwh/year.  Some additional items (yea, you've got to really be into conservation)...
> 
> Disconnect the doorbell xformer (helps keep the salesmen at bay) if not needed.
> 
> Put the garage  door(s) on a power strip.  Turn on in the morning, off when you close the door in the evening.
> 
> Watch out for any x10 phantoms.
> 
> Put all TVs, stereos, etc. on a power strip and shut off over-night.



N1ST,

what the 4kwhr/yr for........?


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## n1st

I guess it's closer to 3.6kwh/year.  It's for everything except gas dryer and stove top.  3.6kwh/yr is about 300kwh/month or 10 per day.   Got the AC on today :+(  but it's supposed to cool down Friday.


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## jjbaer

N1ST said:
			
		

> I guess it's closer to 3.6kwh/year.  It's for everything except gas dryer and stove top.  3.6kwh/yr is about 300kwh/month or 10 per day.   Got the AC on today :+(  but it's supposed to cool down Friday.



I think you mean 3600 kw-hr/yr.........only way you could consume only 3.6 kw-hr/yr is if you live in a yert (sp?) and have a single lightbulb.......


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## n1st

Where'd I leave that decimal point... yes 10kwh/day X 365 = 3650kwh/year or 3.65mwh/year.


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## Kilted

I used -26kwh last month, my bill was $-55.28. Year to Date = $47.46.

--  Brandy


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## jjbaer

Kilted said:
			
		

> I used -26kwh last month, my bill was $-55.28. Year to Date = $47.46.
> 
> --  Brandy




you related to N1ST and also drop a decimal?....LOL....I think you meant that your bill was 260 KW last month, not 26.  If it was, I want tips on how to reduce mine that low because that would be fantastic....LOL


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## Kilted

castiron said:
			
		

> Kilted said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I used -26kwh last month, my bill was $-55.28. Year to Date = $47.46.
> 
> --  Brandy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you related to N1ST and also drop a decimal?....LOL....I think you meant that your bill was 260 KW last month, not 26.  If it was, I want tips on how to reduce mine that low because that would be fantastic....LOL
Click to expand...


Nope not a mistake and you missed the "-" not a mistake either.  Solar panels, I generate approx 5.2Mwh a year (5,200kwh).  I also drive a battery electric car so I have not bought a drop of gasoline for 45,000 miles.

--  Brandy


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## littlesmokey

Kilted said:
			
		

> castiron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kilted said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I used -26kwh last month, my bill was $-55.28. Year to Date = $47.46.
> 
> --  Brandy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you related to N1ST and also drop a decimal?....LOL....I think you meant that your bill was 260 KW last month, not 26.  If it was, I want tips on how to reduce mine that low because that would be fantastic....LOL
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nope not a mistake and you missed the "-" not a mistake either.  Solar panels, I generate approx 5.2Mwh a year (5,200kwh).  I also drive a battery electric car so I have not bought a drop of gasoline for 45,000 miles.
> 
> --  Brandy
Click to expand...


Ouch, you really got slapped. You are not playing fair, Brandy, give us your line, we really want to know. Secrets on this forum seem to get revealed. Tell us.


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## littlesmokey

Now the serious response. You used electricity, right? So you weren't a negative user, but you generated more than you used. Be honest what did you use and how are you using it? 

Many of us would like to reverse our usage, but conservation is a great step in the right direction. Your statement doesn't say much, except you but some watts on the grid. Al Gore is Green, but he uses more in a day than I do in a year. Seems an honest disclosure is deserved. right????


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## Kilted

littlesmokey said:
			
		

> Now the serious response. You used electricity, right? So you weren't a negative user, but you generated more than you used. Be honest what did you use and how are you using it?
> 
> Many of us would like to reverse our usage, but conservation is a great step in the right direction. Your statement doesn't say much, except you but some watts on the grid. Al Gore is Green, but he uses more in a day than I do in a year. Seems an honest disclosure is deserved. right????



Go to:  https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/6191/P45/  post #51 for the details.

-- Brandy


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## littlesmokey

Well, I read your link, and I will be checking my catalogs and on line to understand your set up, right now I really don't understand the names and numbers. You got the stuff, apparently. Well, I am sorry I ruined your day and asked a question, but I think others will chime in with answers.

BTW, I use about 450-550 KWH per month, not the best, but I am trying and I don't have the money to get the tax credits, but I am trying not to waste power.


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## jjbaer

Kilted said:
			
		

> castiron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kilted said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I used -26kwh last month, my bill was $-55.28. Year to Date = $47.46.
> 
> --  Brandy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you related to N1ST and also drop a decimal?....LOL....I think you meant that your bill was 260 KW last month, not 26.  If it was, I want tips on how to reduce mine that low because that would be fantastic....LOL
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nope not a mistake and you missed the "-" not a mistake either.  Solar panels, I generate approx 5.2Mwh a year (5,200kwh).  I also drive a battery electric car so I have not bought a drop of gasoline for 45,000 miles.
> 
> --  Brandy
Click to expand...


Ah yes....now I remember.....!  Good post I read a while ago......you're the California person with solar panels...........great set-up but as I said then, no such tax incentives here in Ohio and less sunshine too but, given solar panels, we could easily make a go of it.  The only show-stopper "gotchas" for the other  90% of the country is the two "minor hurdles" that have to be overcome for us to use solar: 1) solar panel efficiencies have to triple and 2) solar panel prices have to drop by a factor of 3...........hey, that fusion reactor the French are working on in their 36 hr work week that we'll get in the year 2099 is looking pretty good compared to solar..........!


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## wg_bent

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Our house is now total electric too. Our bill was about twice that, right around 1100kw. With lower electric rates I hadn't noticed, but even in August we used 900kw. How is this so? Very little was running during that time other than hotwater and the washer/dryer. We have cfls too, front loading washer, no AC, etc. I'm going to put the kilowatt meter on the computer systems to see how much they're drawing, but this seems pretty high in comparison to what others are reporting and we keep our usage pretty low.



I think that's low.  My last reading was 2638 kwh for 2 months.  We have electric dryer, AC (not used much in that period) a Pool, 2 fridges 1 freezer, and  well pump. all lights are CF's  Overall, the number  isn't that awful.  but I'd sure like to get it down to 1000 for 2 months.


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## Sandor

Warren said:
			
		

> BeGreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Our house is now total electric too. Our bill was about twice that, right around 1100kw. With lower electric rates I hadn't noticed, but even in August we used 900kw. How is this so? Very little was running during that time other than hotwater and the washer/dryer. We have cfls too, front loading washer, no AC, etc. I'm going to put the kilowatt meter on the computer systems to see how much they're drawing, but this seems pretty high in comparison to what others are reporting and we keep our usage pretty low.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think that's low.  My last reading was 2638 kwh for 2 months.  We have electric dryer, AC (not used much in that period) a Pool, 2 fridges 1 freezer, and  well pump. all lights are CF's  Overall, the number  isn't that awful.  but I'd sure like to get it down to 1000 for 2 months.
Click to expand...


Damn Warren. Reminds me of that Brady Bunch episode about "Energy Hogs"

Anybody remember that one? Ha Ha!

You will never hit your target while using the electric clothes dryer.


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## Mo Heat

Hi Sandor, Amazing electric bill considering the 3 ladies. How big is that house, anyway?

I'm glad you posted this. I tweeked my dryer programs (Maytag Neptune) and moved my kill-a-watt meter to my computer. I had almost forgot about saving energy for the last few months. Seems my previous efforts are paying some small dividends, though. My last bill said 940 kwh's used at $83.23. Not too bad for Mo Heat Manor.

I've got Mrs. Mo Heat on board for decommissioning one of our 3 fridges. The oldest. Should happen this Sunday if all goes as planned. And she even unplugs the bedroom TV when not in use. Things are coming along. 

I'm also going to start shutting down the computer at nights now that I have a router and not dependent on MS Internet Connection Sharing through my machine. The kill-a-watt meter says I'm sucking 215 watts, continuous. Damn! With the monitor off, as I usually leave it, it's still sucking 140 watts, continuous. Little here, little there...

Man, 511 kwh's! Good for you. I'm definitely jealous, but working on reducing more around here.


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## MountainStoveGuy

Ahhh i love the smell of PV in the morning..


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## Sandor

Mo Heat said:
			
		

> Hi Sandor, Amazing electric bill considering the 3 ladies. How big is that house, anyway?
> 
> I'm glad you posted this. I tweeked my dryer programs (Maytag Neptune) and moved my kill-a-watt meter to my computer. I had almost forgot about saving energy for the last few months. Seems my previous efforts are paying some small dividends, though. My last bill said 940 kwh's used at $83.23. Not too bad for Mo Heat Manor.
> 
> I've got Mrs. Mo Heat on board for decommissioning one of our 3 fridges. The oldest. Should happen this Sunday if all goes as planned. And she even unplugs the bedroom TV when not in use. Things are coming along.
> 
> I'm also going to start shutting down the computer at nights now that I have a router and not dependent on MS Internet Connection Sharing through my machine. The kill-a-watt meter says I'm sucking 215 watts, continuous. Damn! With the monitor off, as I usually leave it, it's still sucking 140 watts, continuous. Little here, little there...
> 
> Man, 511 kwh's! Good for you. I'm definitely jealous, but working on reducing more around here.



Damn Mo, you have some cheap electric!

Getting the three girls on board was/is not easy. If they were a little more "Green", we could have the KWH usage in the mid 400's. For example, the women yesterday was boiling stuff on the stove when it was 97 degrees outside. One of the kids figured out how to turn the A/C down. I woke up yesterday morning and house was 68 degrees, so I removed the knob that controls the temp. Ain't gonna be a 511 kwh month!

Its been hot this week, and we have been having some brown outs in the afternoon. We have had quite a few days in the mid 90's, and its only June! This is August weather.

P.S. The kill-a-watt meter does show some surprises. I did not know the coffee maker drew 850 watts.


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## velvetfoot

I've been using a coffee maker with a thermal caraffe.
I think it's safer because it's no big deal (no keep hot coil) if you leave it turned on when you leave the house.
I think the coffee tastes fresher longer too.

PS:  Brandy, that's awesome what you're doing with solar.
I'm thinking that in the Northeast, it's not as practical, not even including incentives, etc.


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## slowzuki

332 kwh on last bill, no dryer or washer, but electric hot water and stove and kettle etc.


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## n1st

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> I've been using a coffee maker with a thermal caraffe.
> I think it's safer because it's no big deal (no keep hot coil) if you leave it turned on when you leave the house.
> I think the coffee tastes fresher longer too.
> 
> PS:  Brandy, that's awesome what you're doing with solar.
> I'm thinking that in the Northeast, it's not as practical, not even including incentives, etc.



Actually it's very practical in the Northeast - if your state is offering a good rebate program.  In CT they're offering up to $5/watt + no sales tax + no property tax  on the system + fed tax credits.  At ~.20/kwh  cost from the utility what it boils down to is about a 10 year pay back.  Said another way, a $13K system will save you $40k over the life of it.  ...and I heard the utility company is warning that its going to ask for another rate increase.

For those that are stuck with electric dryers, water heaters, etc., it's still terrific that you're conserving where you can.  Don't try to compete against others - just compete against last month's bill.


----------



## Mo Heat

Sandor said:
			
		

> Damn Mo, you have some cheap electric!



Cheap compared to most I guess, but before the rate increase last year it was around $0.05/kwh. Now, that was hard to beat! If mathematics serves me, and it seldom does, my current rate is around $0.09/kwh (that's averaged out, with transmission, etc. included). So you can see, things are getting bad in a hurry here in the mid-west. That's nearly twice the price as a year ago! Damn! Thank goodness Mrs. Mo Heat is now on board to save the planet.



> Getting the three girls on board was/is not easy. If they were a little more "Green", we could have the KWH usage in the mid 400's. For example, the women yesterday was boiling stuff on the stove when it was 97 degrees outside. One of the kids figured out how to turn the A/C down. I woke up yesterday morning and house was 68 degrees, so I removed the knob that controls the temp. Ain't gonna be a 511 kwh month!



I remember when I used to try and save a bit here and there a few years back. Whenever Mrs. Mo Heat would notice, she'd roll her eyes, and man, that really lit my fuse. Yeah, I'm a cheap skate, but what the hell, why throw money out with the trash?



> Its been hot this week, and we have been having some brown outs in the afternoon. We have had quite a few days in the mid 90's, and its only June! This is August weather.
> 
> P.S. The kill-a-watt meter does show some surprises. I did not know the coffee maker drew 850 watts.



It's been seasonally mild here until well into May. We may have not had the A/C running until the first of June now that I think about it. That's exceptional for Missouri, or as I like to pronounce it, Miz' - er - y.  :smirk: 

I had some surprises with the kill-a-watt meter, too. I finally moved the kill-a-watt meter to my old computer and see it's like two 100 watt light bulbs going 24/7. Probably the same with the one upstairs. I suspect that's up there with the A/C and the electric dryer, although I can't put the kill-a-watt meter on them since they're 220 volts.

Reading this thread gave me another idea. I'm going to try and put a cheap timer on my radon fan. I'll start by reducing the "ON" period to somewhere around 12 to 16 hours a day. I think it draws around 75 watts, continuous. 

And I found a transformer that was plugged into the wall, but not into it's device, which is broken. It was warm. Weird how those things seem to use electricity even with NO load. I cleaned one of the 3 refrigerator's coils today, but I doubt that really nets much savings. Never know though. I'll have to get that one on the kill-a-watt after I check the second computer in a week or two.

I also have to fess up that we have NG water heat, so my electric would be even higher without that. 

I'm glad Warren checked in or I'd feel like the only energy hog around here.  8-/


----------



## velvetfoot

I have a 15 watt radon fan that does the job as per my two electronic radon meters.


----------



## jjbaer

littlesmokey said:
			
		

> Kilted said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> castiron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kilted said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I used -26kwh last month, my bill was $-55.28. Year to Date = $47.46.
> 
> --  Brandy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you related to N1ST and also drop a decimal?....LOL....I think you meant that your bill was 260 KW last month, not 26.  If it was, I want tips on how to reduce mine that low because that would be fantastic....LOL
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nope not a mistake and you missed the "-" not a mistake either.  Solar panels, I generate approx 5.2Mwh a year (5,200kwh).  I also drive a battery electric car so I have not bought a drop of gasoline for 45,000 miles.
> 
> --  Brandy
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ouch, you really got slapped. You are not playing fair, Brandy, give us your line, we really want to know. Secrets on this forum seem to get revealed. Tell us.
Click to expand...


No..Kilted has a way of baiting people with only part of the facts which leads people to question his response......what he should have said is that he has 5KW of solar panels and therefore his monthly bill was $55.........got news for you...I have NO solar panels and my last months bill was $58....


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## littlesmokey

Well, I get it now, my electrical use is different than his, right? I think my conservation without spending thousands and hiding behind a tax credit, is better than being a sneak thief. If we turned you out and you want to be smug and holier than thou, good for you. Sit on the park bench in Venice with your cardboard sign that says, "I'm better than you cause I work the system and only give half the information". Thanks, marked your ID.





			
				castiron said:
			
		

> littlesmokey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kilted said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> castiron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kilted said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I used -26kwh last month, my bill was $-55.28. Year to Date = $47.46.
> 
> --  Brandy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you related to N1ST and also drop a decimal?....LOL....I think you meant that your bill was 260 KW last month, not 26.  If it was, I want tips on how to reduce mine that low because that would be fantastic....LOL
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nope not a mistake and you missed the "-" not a mistake either.  Solar panels, I generate approx 5.2Mwh a year (5,200kwh).  I also drive a battery electric car so I have not bought a drop of gasoline for 45,000 miles.
> 
> --  Brandy
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ouch, you really got slapped. You are not playing fair, Brandy, give us your line, we really want to know. Secrets on this forum seem to get revealed. Tell us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No..Kilted has a way of baiting people with only part of the facts which leads people to question his response......what he should have said is that he has 5KW of solar panels and therefore his monthly bill was $55.........got news for you...I have NO solar panels and my last months bill was $58....
Click to expand...


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## begreen

No need for personal attacks. The bottom line is that Brandy's NET consumption is negative. They are not paying an electrical bill, instead they are feeding the grid and getting a payback. As much as I'd like to be making that same statement I can't. Though I do plan on getting a solar array once thinfilm panels become easily available. We need a lot more folks like this investing in the future if the goal is US energy independence. My hat's off to them.


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## littlesmokey

BeGreen,
Sorry about the roast. It just makes me a little angry when you ask for information and basically treated like you are not worthy of a reply. Kilted might be a great conservationist, but he might also be like Al Gore and his watt burning castle and claiming carbon neutral because he bought some stock. Either you use it or you don't, where it comes from is only part of the answer. I think this thread is about the very real conservation of a resource and the reduction in our dependence on outside resources.

Sometimes I get a little sarcastic, and I apologize.


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## begreen

Perhaps it's not intentional. Kilted is not a frequent poster. Lots of people have a life outside of Hearth.com and only check on posts occasionally. It's also possible that Kilted is pretty conservative with electrical consumption so I wouldn't jump to conclusions.


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## Kilted

Well it looks like I stirred things up a bit here.  Thank you BeGreen for the kind words.  And yes I do have a life elsewhere.  I like hearth.com it has a good format with lots of posters and a nice variety of opinions and posters.

I suppose I should not have stayed away so long after dropping that little tweaker.  Sorry Littlesmokey for not being more forth coming with information.  I have had to re-learn many times that not every one shares the same intensity of interest that I have for some things.  One of the things I’ve learned is that many folks are not conservationists; I would not call my self one.  While solar electric is a passion for some it’s a yawn for most others.

So out of self-defense I do not post a detailed message, when I have, I get little to no response, which annoys me.  So I drop in a teaser, that way if there is interest some one will step up if not I’ve not wasted half an hour.

Now to answer some questions, I’ll not repeat all the technical details those are in the other thread.  Well I live in California, no wife, no kids; I have been in this house 24 years, and have a good job.

This house compared to one of your houses in the North East is like a cracker box, but hey its CA and it was built in the 1950’s.  So far, I have rewired it, replaced all the windows with thermo-panes, I have some very large windows that are now low-e glass, the house has been insulated, as much roof treatment as possible has been done without replacing it, epa fireplace insert.  When I moved in, in the middle of summer you could put your hand on the ceiling and feel the heat pour in.  The temp would get up 110F inside when it was 80F outside; the house now averages 10-15 up to 20 degrees BELOW the outside summer temp. Last July I saw 100+ outside and 80 inside, did not last long. In the winter the furnace would run for hours to bring up the temp.  Put wood in the fireplace and the furnace would come on, yea you know the routine.

So I made some changes.  A few years ago when CA were have the power outages I became very annoyed when I came home from a business trip and found my freezer had melted down AGAIN this was about 2000, round about that time I heard about Solar Panels (Photo Voltaic), grid tie, and battery systems.  My greatest source of info was www.homepower.com.  So I made some more changes.

A bit later a friend decided I needed to see some electric cars.  His car club was going down to Watsonville, CA to see the Corbin Sparrow.  I liked the idea but the Sparrow was not the car for me.  A few months later I saw one of the few advertisements for the Toyota Rav4EV.  I decided I could live with it and it could replace my Ford Ranger truck, which was becoming a PITA.  So I made some more changes.

I gave up my traveling job a few years ago and have been fixing my house up and came to the conclusion that the old insert has to go, so I replaced it with a Avalon Perfect-Fit.  It was round about that time I found hearth.com.  I drop in about once a month to see what’s happening.  Along with the wood stove I bought a new electric chain saw and wood splitter, so I could grab some of the freebies.

Enough of the biography:
My energy usage on the house about 16kwh per day.  I normally read the power meter mornings and at night, I have done this for about 5 years now.  The car uses about 360 watts per mile, I drive about 10,000 miles a year or about 3,600kwh per year.  My cost for my power varies depends how you want to calculate it.  My truck got 17 mpg the same 10k miles = 588 gals, average cost of gasoline in CA was about $2.25 per gallon, for $1323.  I installed 2.2kw of solar specifically to supply power for the Rav4EV, my cost for the panels after rebates $4,700, so / 1323 = 3.6 years the panels paid for themselves JUST by the avoided cost of gasoline.  Calculated this way I’m now driving free. OR  approx. $0.02per KWH amortized cost of the solar system over 30 years.  

Rebates and things;
Yes CA had some nice rebates for the solar and the car and I’m happy to take them, SO you think the petroleum companies do not get rebates.  To check on incentives for your state go here; http://www.dsireusa.org/.

As I always recommended you need to do your own research.  The Internet for me has been a life savor.  I now get 90% of my information from it, caveat as you know just because it’s on the internet does not mean its true, know your sources.

OK, now my cost’s for installing all of this stuff was high.  I can also tell you that it works wonderfully well.  What a way to stick it to Big Oil, OPEC, and Power utility all at the same time.  I cannot tell you how good that feels.

PIC soap box;
Littlesmokey, sorry I’m going to pick on you a little bit now.  You seem to have gotten a bit worked up over all of this.  So how about directing some of that energy at you federal and state legislators.  There should be a nation E-net metering law, there should be more funds directed to renewable research, there should rebate programs to get new technology off of the ground.  Example: Google has just commissioned a 1.6mw solar system at the Mountain View GooglePlex http://www.google.org/recharge/.  So Google has been working on this project for a year or so, I have had my solar panels in long before Google thought of it.  Google is now interested in plug-in hybrids, I had my car long before Google was interested, (Google now has two Rav4EV’s they purchased used).  All of this became possible because there were enough rebates from CA to get people like me interested to buy and helped create a market. Felix Cramer (calcars.org) spoke at our EAASV.org meeting when he first came up with the idea of a plug-in hybrid conversion.  Dr. Andy Frank at UC Davis did the pioneering work.  Felix seen the work and worked with the Yahoo Prius user group and came up with idea when it was noticed the European versions had an “ev” switch.  Again before Google was interested there has been a lot of work to get Google to step up.  And the GooglePlex is 3-miles from my house.

So who is willing to put their money on the line?  Who is willing to write their state representatives and congressmen to vote for renewables?  I can tell you from my own experience even what I paid is about 2x to expensive.  But I put my money into the hardware and life style changes it took. 

I still do not consider myself as a conservationist, just the way I live.

PIC soap box closed.

Continued ..


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## Kilted

Do you have Time-of-Use metering?  Using a setup similar to;  https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/7084/ .  Add a timer and then you load shift electricity usage from peak to off peak hours.  My brother in Wisconsin he does this in the summer, works great.  It would take a wattmeter to find the running loads and from that you can work out the battery size.  If any one wants to do this let me know and I’ll help size the system.  In this case remember ebay is your friend other wise it could get pricey and not worthwhile.  Web search for the rest of the system parts.

Bye for now.  --  Brandy


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## begreen

Awesome, thanks for the detailed post Brandy. It goes to show that given the proper incentives, one can significantly reduce carbon emissions and actually have a better life with an improved bottom line. A lot of businesses have found this out too. Multiply the changes that you've made times the thousands of households in CA and there is a significant impact. That's why I'm certain this is presently the single best energy program for the country. 

A couple questions, is your solar system straight grid-tie or do you have a battery backup? How many miles on the RAV4 now? Have you replaced the batteries? Any other major maintenance on it?


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## Mo Heat

Kilted, Littlesmokey is new around here, so I'm not sure why he's getting so worked up. I recall your previous excellent posts last year, with gobs of info, and appreciate your effort in alternative energy. Just for the record, I'd say most of us here at hearthnet, with an interest in the Green Room, do as well.

Seven years ago, I also lived about 3 miles from Google. I lived in a nice little townhouse (#10 of 10) on Rock Street, sandwiched between two crackerbox apt complexes, maybe you know of it. It was a street or two over from Charleston and less than one mile east of Sun Microsystems. Do you live close to there? I don't remember seeing any massive PV systems around my neighborhood and I biked around there a lot. Maybe you live 3 miles east of Google? Down near Moffit Field? Or perhaps 3 miles south in Los Altos (gasp)! Talk about high priced cracker boxes!  8-/  I also lived on Mariposa, within spitting distance of El Camino, and did a daily bike ride up through Los Altos (El Monte street to Page Mill). That would also be about 3 miles south of Google on Shoreline. There's some nice, older homes there in Old Mountain View, on either side of the main drag. I kind of miss that area. Loved biking down to the local downtown farmers market on Saturdays.

Man, I am jealous of your system! Here in Missouri we have no net metering law, no state incentives, and no hope for the near future unless hades freezes over, but good lord, the real estate prices are good, even before the crunch! Energy saving combat in Missouri amounts to sniffing out unused appliance transformers, turning off unused devices, adjusting the thermostat, educating the wife and m-n-l (even as they roll their eyes), and burning wood, which is how I found hearthnet. 

I long for PV panels, but like you, BG, and castiron, I feel they are still over priced and beyond the reach of mortal beings without institutional help. I have high hopes for the thinfilm work being done, but worry a bit about by-products, but I guess they can be dealt with at least as well as those from burning oil, coal, and splitting atoms.  :ahhh:  And I'll bet the independence "feeling" factor of PV is off the charts, as you suggest.

I've never even ridden in an electric auto, or known anyone who owned one, save my neighbor's kid with a John Deer electric kiddy car, which the little tyke refused to allow me to operate.  :-/ 

Don't be a stranger. Lots more friendly folks here than curmudgeons who read and post regularly. I personally am interested in the hidden costs of PV systems including maintenance, etc. You know, the total cost of ownership thing. Hope to see more of you around here. Winter's just around the corner.

BTW: does your insert have a convection fan? Do you use it? And do you find you tend to be less electric usage conscious or more now that you have "free electricity" coming from the roof?   :lol:


----------



## Mo Heat

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> I have a 15 watt radon fan that does the job as per my two electronic radon meters.



Not sure if I mentioned it before, but I bought one of those meters you recommended. I discovered I should be glowing in the dark and immediately replaced my radon fan. It took two months, maybe more, but the levels finally went down below 4 pc/l.

Right now, the worst place in the house (unfinished portion of basement) is reading 1.5 Long and 1.7 short. Yesterday the short was 1.6 pc/l, so I decided I'd install a cheap timer on the fan, which I did. The fan will now run from 2am to 2pm, which should be the coolest part of the day in the attic, where the fan is installed, which hopefully will lengthen the life of my fan, too.

So far, so good. I'll keep an eye on it and post what happens.

I wonder if I could have gotten by with a smaller fan, but since this is a ranch, and a pretty big one, with a pretty big slab, and the mitigation system all the way to one side, I thought I'd better be safe than sorry. If the timer works, my fan essentially goes from 75 watts to 37.5 watts, and I still get the turbo suction that is probably needed for this big slab. If the radon level starts rising, at least I know I didn't waste my money on the bigger fan.  :coolsmile:

On a side note, when my roof was replaced, they changed the radon PVC stack and cap with a simple lead stack outer liner that had NO cap. I called a radon guy and he said that is EPA spec: NO CAP ALLOWED. Not sure if he's right, but not 6 months after the cap was removed, my fan crapped out. When I inspected it, it was full of leaves and some really rank traces of funky water. So I put a cap back on there. I'm convinced it doesn't impede the operation and increases fan life, even though these are sealed fans.


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## jjbaer

littlesmokey said:
			
		

> Well, I get it now, my electrical use is different than his, right? I think my conservation without spending thousands and hiding behind a tax credit, is better than being a sneak thief. If we turned you out and you want to be smug and holier than thou, good for you. Sit on the park bench in Venice with your cardboard sign that says, "I'm better than you cause I work the system and only give half the information". Thanks, marked your ID.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> castiron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> littlesmokey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kilted said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> castiron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kilted" date="1183018092 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I used -26kwh last month, my bill was $-55.28. Year to Date = $47.46.
> 
> --  Brandy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you related to N1ST and also drop a decimal?....LOL....I think you meant that your bill was 260 KW last month, not 26.  If it was, I want tips on how to reduce mine that low because that would be fantastic....LOL
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nope not a mistake and you missed the "-" not a mistake either.  Solar panels, I generate approx 5.2Mwh a year (5,200kwh).  I also drive a battery electric car so I have not bought a drop of gasoline for 45,000 miles.
> 
> --  Brandy
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ouch, you really got slapped. You are not playing fair, Brandy, give us your line, we really want to know. Secrets on this forum seem to get revealed. Tell us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No..Kilted has a way of baiting people with only part of the facts which leads people to question his response......what he should have said is that he has 5KW of solar panels and therefore his monthly bill was $55.........got news for you...I have NO solar panels and my last months bill was $58....
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...



Litttlesmokey,

Hope you were kidding a bit....while I was serious about the way he only gives "half the info" thus causing people to question him, I don't think you should add him to your ignore button....LOL....my point is that all his posts are like that.....he enjoys having people have to come back and question his numbers at which point he's like Paul Harvey with "and now, the rest of the story"....LOL....just gotta get used to it and expect it next time.....

Also, if I could get the subsidized deal folks in CA get, I'd probably try and go that route too but it just isn't (economically) there yet for 95% of the nation.......


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## begreen

Prolly closer to 30% of the nation can get subsidies, (CA is over 12% of the US population alone). AL, AR, CO, IA, MN, NY (especially Long Island), OR, TX, UT, WA, & WI have similar incentives. And many other states have solar electric net metering. Like with so many other issues, the states aren't waiting for the fed to get off its arse. If your state doesn't have a good solar rebate program, push them for it. This should be available to 100% of the nation.

http://www.solarelectricpower.org/index.php?page=utility


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## littlesmokey

castiron said:
			
		

> littlesmokey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I get it now, my electrical use is different than his, right? I think my conservation without spending thousands and hiding behind a tax credit, is better than being a sneak thief. If we turned you out and you want to be smug and holier than thou, good for you. Sit on the park bench in Venice with your cardboard sign that says, "I'm better than you cause I work the system and only give half the information". Thanks, marked your ID.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> castiron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> littlesmokey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kilted said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> castiron" date="1183018561 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kilted" date="1183018092 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I used -26kwh last month, my bill was $-55.28. Year to Date = $47.46.
> 
> --  Brandy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you related to N1ST and also drop a decimal?....LOL....I think you meant that your bill was 260 KW last month, not 26.  If it was, I want tips on how to reduce mine that low because that would be fantastic....LOL
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nope not a mistake and you missed the "-" not a mistake either.  Solar panels, I generate approx 5.2Mwh a year (5,200kwh).  I also drive a battery electric car so I have not bought a drop of gasoline for 45,000 miles.
> 
> --  Brandy
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ouch, you really got slapped. You are not playing fair, Brandy, give us your line, we really want to know. Secrets on this forum seem to get revealed. Tell us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No..Kilted has a way of baiting people with only part of the facts which leads people to question his response......what he should have said is that he has 5KW of solar panels and therefore his monthly bill was $55.........got news for you...I have NO solar panels and my last months bill was $58....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Litttlesmokey,
> 
> Hope you were kidding a bit....while I was serious about the way he only gives "half the info" thus causing people to question him, I don't think you should add him to your ignore button....LOL....my point is that all his posts are like that.....he enjoys having people have to come back and question his numbers at which point he's like Paul Harvey with "and now, the rest of the story"....LOL....just gotta get used to it and expect it next time.....
> 
> Also, if I could get the subsidized deal folks in CA get, I'd probably try and go that route too but it just isn't (economically) there yet for 95% of the nation.......
Click to expand...



Cast Iron:
Sometimes my very direct, no holding back irritates some. I can be sarcastic when irritated, but I don't think I was worked up. I just don't like drive byes. This is a forum to share information not to tease to see if we are worthy of being told the glad tidings. Get enough of that crap from the new multi-millionaires I do work for and complain I'm over charging. I know kilts ID, won't ignore him, but I've got his message, there's nothing I could share with him that would be of benefit to him. I don't intend to be a forum pest or a problem. Think I have learned a great deal in the months I have lurked. Think there are some great minds with lots of passion and feeling about doing the right thing. I find the closet conservationists, like me, are strongly committed. Some are motivated to save money but get a lot of gratification about being successful. 

I've seen some of your posts and some of Elks, and others that would shrink the mighty warriors. While we all have other things in our lives, when winter is 8 months, it doesn't give much time to think of sandy beaches and I am making some changes in my heating needs, so picking great minds is something I will find time to do. 

I belong to several other forums, I spend about an hour at the keyboard each day, it's like going to the diner for coffee, but some I only cruse by and others I take a break at. Sometimes in the evening the Internet is better than anything on the tube, so there is some extra time, but I don't think anyone on this forum has an issue with a life beyond the Hearth, except maybe the Web-Master, for obvious reasons.

BeGreen:
Just forewarning, if I get heated and really worked up, I suspect you will get very active with the delete and edit keys. I guess I can claim artists rights to passion. BTW, I am trying to figure out how to post my location. Going to work on that after I submit this. It should be the right side of the Tetons, but only those West of Jackson will understand.


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## begreen

LS, passion is fine, I encourage it, as long as it is respectful of others. It's really rare that any of the mods have to use the delete option. Overall, this is a pretty special group of folks. 

Your location worked out fine. Anywhere near Driggs? Nice country in the hills there.


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## Kilted

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Awesome, thanks for the detailed post Brandy.
> 
> A couple questions, is your solar system straight grid-tie or do you have a battery backup? How many miles on the RAV4 now? Have you replaced the batteries? Any other major maintenance on it?



BeGreen – Thank you

My solar is grid tie with battery back up.  System is Beacon Power M5 5-kw grid tie inverter; http://www.beaconpower.com/products/SolarInverterSystems/index.htm with eight 12v 250A 8D deep cycle batteries for 500amps at 48v.  Which is enough to keep the house running over night until the sun comes up the next day.  http://www.concordebattery.com/xtender_main.php , battery; PVX-2580L (PDF)  . Battery rack; BR88D http://www.2seas.com/prodSelection.php?prodCategory=Battery&style=Original Battery Racks  it comes with a cover and the batteries in the picture look like mine.

The solar arrays are 40 SP-75-watt panels for 3 kw and 12 Sharp 185A for 2.2kw.  Over the course of the year I generate approx 5,200kwh of electricity.  I am on PG&E TOU E7 rate.  Time Of Use (TOU) has two periods peak 12noon-6pm M-F, and off peak all other times.  During peak electricity is priced at approx. $0.32 kwh buying or selling.  So I endeavor to only sell during peak time.

The Rav4EV has about 45,000 miles on it.  No I have not had to change the batteries.  Major maintenance; I replaced the tires.  I’m sure everyone here is really curious about the batteries as the OEM’s Toyota included all claim that the batteries are not ready.  Well that falls between out right lie with a bit of truth.  I would say an out right lie.  The batteries in my car provide a range of approx 100 miles using my lead foot and air conditioning.  OEM’s say that is not enough range people want 300 miles.  Well my truck average 250-275 miles between fill ups.  What I NEED is 30 miles daily with the option of doing 60-80 running errands on weekends.  Right after I picked up the car I did 120 miles one Saturday by stopping at all the stores that had public charging and charged while I was in the store.  

OEMs say that people will not put up with 5 hour charging.  Well my routine is I plug in the night before and the 20-30 miles I used the previous day has been replenished before I go to work.  The charger is a 6kw charger and charges at a rate of 15 miles-per-hour.

OEMs say the batteries do not last long enough and are too expensive to replace.   Well this is were Toyota really steped on their own toes.  The batteries in the Rav4EV are Panasonic large format NiMH and were some of the best produced for that generation.  Several of our club members have passed the 100k-mile marker.  SCE has run an accelerated life test and have over 120k miles.   There have indeed been some cell failures and the repairs have been costly and painful for some the failures that I know of are less than 10% of the fleet of 500.  The primary pack failure has been caused by cell imbalance.  Imbalanc primary cause is not letting the Battery Management System (BMS) do a complete equalization, by running the pack through a long cycle of forced equalizations the will come back to life, this is user abuse.  There have been three report cell failures I know of.  The other problem is to much heat.  Heat caused by operation no user control and heat caused in charging, which is under user control.  The last 6% of charge causes 80% of the overheating.  Since the car is equipped with a timer it is easy to cut off the charge, BUT you do have to remember to allow the BMS to equalize the pack.  I just had my pack checked and it is still perfectly balance at 6-milliohms (like new) per battery there are 24 –12v batteries.  It looks like I can get 120k+ miles.

This is were Toyota is right, the pack maintenance is currently a black art.  Cost to repair is high, a failure rate of 10% would be a deal breaker when dealing in 100k’s or millions of units.  Our group is very responsive and responsible EV friendly group and we still have trouble.  The only way I know of to fix this is to build more so the bugs can be worked out!!

For all things Rav4EV related go here; http://evnut.com/  left panel Rav4EV then there is a menu selection across the top, go to batteries and there are Lots and Lots of details and pictures.  Darrell is known in our group as the go to guy for the web site, and he is a very nice person!

Other major maintenance: I have a cracked heated windshield. This I will need get taken care of this summer; it will cost me $500.

MoHeat;
Check below; 1/1/2008 is your magic date for the freeze over.  Start planning now and start looking for an installer.  Since you have the wife and m-n-l problem TOU may not work for you.  Just being able the knock some of it off would be nice.  
http://www.dsireusa.org/library/inc...Code=MO07R&state=MO&CurrentPageID=1&RE=1&EE=1 

Lets see Rock Street is about 1.5 mile from my house.  And you’re right seven years ago there were almost no solar panel installation.  Google’s solar system just went in this year.  My system went active November 2001.   You see a lot of them now. The industry has grown a lot in the last five years.  Check out Nanosolar.  If they are successful expect the price to drop in half for solar power.  http://www.nanosolar.com/

Fireplace insert.  Yes it does have a circulating fan.  Since it is flush mount to the chimney it needs the fan to push the heat out. 

As for electrical usage I’m both.  I am acutely aware how much electricity I use and I endeavor to nt be wasteful.  The last TV I bought was an LCD cause it use less electricity, I use cfls for general lighting and halogens for task lighting.  When I’m home I’ll have three computers and a TV running.  When I’m gone lights turn on/off by themselves.  So it’s a mixed bag.


----------



## Kilted

System maintenance.  If you are grid tied only no batteries, installed it and forget it, the solar requires less maintenance than a TV.  With batteries there is more.  First there is some efficiency loss the Beacon Power M5 / M5+ has less loss than Xantrex or Outback because of system design.  I used sealed agm batteries, no watering etc.  but you still need to do a yearly load check, check terminals etc.  Load check I switch off the grid to the inverter on Friday night checked the pack voltage and then leave until Saturday morning.  I have 500a * 48v = 24kwh.  I know the house uses 7-9 kwh over night this about 40% and the pack voltage should be above 48.8v, and then I see how long it takes to recharge the pack.  The last grid outage here was for 8 hours.  Everything I needed worked fine.

I have also decided to go with portable air conditioners as they run off of 120 and I can run one from battery if I have to. 

And like I mentioned above even though I was able to afford all of this it is still 2x to expensive and with all the rebates that puts it closer to the 3-4x.  So I agree with your price wag.  Actually the ‘house’ could afford the solar, do to the crazy CA real estate market.  So far the ‘house’ has paid for all of its own upgrade’s, it just lets me live here

--  Brandy


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## jjbaer

Kilted said:
			
		

> System maintenance.  If you are grid tied only no batteries, installed it and forget it, the solar requires less maintenance than a TV.  With batteries there is more.  First there is some efficiency loss the Beacon Power M5 / M5+ has less loss than Xantrex or Outback because of system design.  I used sealed agm batteries, no watering etc.  but you still need to do a yearly load check, check terminals etc.  Load check I switch off the grid to the inverter on Friday night checked the pack voltage and then leave until Saturday morning.  I have 500a * 4 = 24.  I know the house uses 7-9 kwh over night this about 40% and the pack voltage should be above 48.8v, and then I see how long it takes to recharge the pack.  The last grid outage here was for 8 hours.  Everything I needed worked fine.
> 
> I have also decided to go with portable air conditioners as they run off of 120 and I can run one from battery if I have to.
> 
> And like I mentioned above even though I was able to afford all of this it is still 2x to expensive and with all the rebates that puts it closer to the 3-4x.  So I agree with your price wag.  Actually the ‘house’ could afford the solar, do to the crazy CA real estate market.  So far the ‘house’ has paid for all of its own upgrade’s, it just lets me live here
> 
> --  Brandy



Kilted,

never said I didn't enjoy your FULL responses, in fact, as a mechanical engineer I thoroughly enjoyed them!!    I know you don't like to write volumes unless someone asks for them first BUT..... in the future, instead of saying "your last months bill was $-55.28" please use this instead "your last months bill was $-55.28 BECAUSE you have 5KW of solar"....then we can begin with "tell us more" instead of questioning your figures.  Bottom line:  I think it's SUPER you're able to do this and when I re-read your earlier post, I knew what set-up you had. 

Question:  saw an article on parts of CA banning fireplaces.....1) how does that affect you and 2) is this fireplaces or all WB stoves?



thanks


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## littlesmokey

BeGreen said:
			
		

> LS, passion is fine, I encourage it, as long as it is respectful of others. It's really rare that any of the mods have to use the delete option. Overall, this is a pretty special group of folks.
> 
> Your location worked out fine. Anywhere near Driggs? Nice country in the hills there.



You know the right side!?!? I'm south a few valleys and lost of irrigated fields. Go over the hill a few times a month, but find the traffic too much like a city. Costs too much to climb to Victor and take the giant slide to JH, so I do the Alpine route. [To all of you who don't know this country, tough. Thirty miles driving gives you a whole new eco-system and views and vistas no where else in the world. Eat your hearts out]


----------



## jjbaer

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Prolly closer to 30% of the nation can get subsidies, (CA is over 12% of the US population alone). AL, AR, CO, IA, MN, NY (especially Long Island), OR, TX, UT, WA, & WI have similar incentives. And many other states have solar electric net metering. Like with so many other issues, the states aren't waiting for the fed to get off its arse. If your state doesn't have a good solar rebate program, push them for it. This should be available to 100% of the nation.
> 
> http://www.solarelectricpower.org/index.php?page=utility



I knew that however, it also has to do with affordability......makes no difference if CA were to offset even more than what it does now, if half the people still can't afford to shell-out their portion........same with other states....Example: say a $35K system is reduced to $15K through offsets....people still have to come-up with the $15K.....so.....using that logic, solar is still outside the affordability range of 95% of the country. Want proof...here it is: 95% of the country doesn't have solar.......if it were affordable they would.....that's all I'm saying. Bottom line: solar AIN'T ready for "prime time" yet............LOL


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## velvetfoot

Mo, at least the electronic radon meters eliminate the guesswork - we hope.  
I'm not that sure the method of discharge is that critical, just that it gets out of the house where it concentrates.


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## begreen

Gotcha. It's the reason we haven't invested in solar yet also. In WA state, in order to get the subsidy the components have to be made in WA state. Catch 22 is that currently there aren't any solar panels made in WA state. Hopefully there will be soon. There is a grid-tie inverter is made here and that qualifies. 

But it will take more than the cost drop. It will take a shift in national thinking first. I don't think the number one obstacle is cost, I think it's mindset. No one is pushing conservation seriously at the federal level. Cost now is typically about $15-20k, assuming one is going for straight grid tie and not battery backed up. That's a lot of money, agreed, but if it were sold like the all American SUV or truck as the greatest and most patriotic thing you can do for the country, they'd be moving very briskly. Especially in the numerous states that offer net metering benefits. If incentives bring the cost down to a 5 year payback, the system becomes very attractive even at today's prices. 

Capacity: Currently there isn't manufacturing capacity to supply a rapid increase in demand. We need major new plants and many of them. The good news is that the first plants in the US should be coming online next year. Honda came online in Japan this year. 

Efficiency and Cost: You touched on this in an earlier post and are totally correct. Silicon solar cells are expensive. However, thin film solar has the promise to make a major dent in prices. They can generate more power at a lower cost. The goal is a 35% total system cost reduction, while increasing efficiency. By lowering the cost one can afford more panels. As a thin film, they have the promise of becoming an affordable roofing material. This will go a long way towards increasing usage. When you go for a roof do you want a $10k shingle roof or a $12K solar roof, that's 30% subsidized and will pay itself back in a few years? Honda has jumped into this market and is promising a 50% reduction in the cost of panels.  

Location: For some folks, their property is never going to be appropriate for solar. But with higher efficiency panels the range of cost effective installations will grow significantly. 

Solar will probably never even reach 50% of the nations homes and that's ok. If just 15% of the nation changed to solar, it would make a huge difference, especially if coupled to an energy conservation program. But as previously noted, few are thinking conservation yet. America needs to regain it's appreciation of frugality as one of the values the country was founded on.


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## Mo Heat

Kilted said:
			
		

> MoHeat;
> Check below; 1/1/2008 is your magic date for the freeze over.  Start planning now and start looking for an installer.  Since you have the wife and m-n-l problem TOU may not work for you.  Just being able the knock some of it off would be nice.
> http://www.dsireusa.org/library/inc...Code=MO07R&state=MO&CurrentPageID=1&RE=1&EE=1
> 
> Check out Nanosolar.  If they are successful expect the price to drop in half for solar power.  http://www.nanosolar.com/



Wow, thanks for that link. I guess I'll have to stop pronouncing my state name Miz' - er - ee, but I can see the deck is stacked in favor of the power company. 

Hmmm. They get to count any private installations against mandated green power goals, they sell at retail and refund PV (or other) producers at "utility's avoided cost rate" (whatever that is, and it could be almost anything with a little cost accounting razzle dazzle), if your meter isn't capable of supporting net metering then the customer has to pay to replace it, they are only required to accept applicants until aggregate capacity reaches 1% of the previous year's single hour peak load, and they arbitrarily stop net metering payments when 5% of last year's single hour peak load is reached (or they claim it is). 

But what the hey? It's better than nothing.

Nanosolar: Again, wow.  Lots of good news for that company. I'm almost surprised that Google went ahead with the silicone (I'm assuming) installation, but I guess it might be a couple more years before NanoSolar starts meaningful production. The CNN video is cool, but it stopped abruptly after about 5 minutes, during two play attempts. That might be about all of it, but I'm not sure. It would indeed be cool to have a dual function roof instead of essentially one and a half roofs, one roof for rain and another half roof of solar panels. The price of the roof would essentially be subsidizing the PV install. That is cool. Especially if you are just about in need of a new roof. 

Brandy, Care to share where you're working around there? What you do for a living? There's nothing in your bio.

Sandoor, I was bragging too soon. I received my next electric bill yesterday and I consumed 1349 kWh's last month. Dang! This month has some serous Missouri A/C usage on it. $119.29 makes it just under $0.09 / kWh, but like I said, I've got the radon fan running 1/2 has much now, two computers are being shut down when not in use, and Mrs. Mo Heat is still promising to decommission one of our 3 refrigerators (jeeze!) as I think I've finally convinced her that not everyone at Mo Heat Manor needs their own personal refrigerator.


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## begreen

If it's any consolation Mo, we just got our water bill. It's higher than your electric bill. The gardens are dry and didn't get the usual spring rains.


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## Kilted

Solar City: The Future of Nanosolar

A short clip on Nanosolar

http://www.kqed.org/quest/television
http://www.kqed.org/quest/television/view/399

Science of Big Waves
http://www.kqed.org/quest/television/view/249

Interesting video, high quality video patience or high speed connection recommended.

-- Brandy


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## jjbaer

Mo Heat said:
			
		

> Kilted said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MoHeat;
> Check below; 1/1/2008 is your magic date for the freeze over. Start planning now and start looking for an installer. Since you have the wife and m-n-l problem TOU may not work for you. Just being able the knock some of it off would be nice.
> http://www.dsireusa.org/library/inc...Code=MO07R&state=MO&CurrentPageID=1&RE=1&EE=1
> 
> Check out Nanosolar. If they are successful expect the price to drop in half for solar power. http://www.nanosolar.com/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, thanks for that link. I guess I'll have to stop pronouncing my state name Miz' - er - ee, but I can see the deck is stacked in favor of the power company.
> 
> Hmmm. They get to count any private installations against mandated green power goals, they sell at retail and refund PV (or other) producers at "utility's avoided cost rate" (whatever that is, and it could be almost anything with a little cost accounting razzle dazzle), if your meter isn't capable of supporting net metering then the customer has to pay to replace it, they are only required to accept applicants until aggregate capacity reaches 1% of the previous year's single hour peak load, and they arbitrarily stop net metering payments when 5% of last year's single hour peak load is reached (or they claim it is).
> 
> But what the hey? It's better than nothing.
> 
> Nanosolar: Again, wow. Lots of good news for that company. I'm almost surprised that Google went ahead with the silicone (I'm assuming) installation, but I guess it might be a couple more years before NanoSolar starts meaningful production. The CNN video is cool, but it stopped abruptly after about 5 minutes, during two play attempts. That might be about all of it, but I'm not sure. It would indeed be cool to have a dual function roof instead of essentially one and a half roofs, one roof for rain and another half roof of solar panels. The price of the roof would essentially be subsidizing the PV install. That is cool. Especially if you are just about in need of a new roof.
> 
> Brandy, Care to share where you're working around there? What you do for a living? There's nothing in your bio.
> 
> Sandoor, I was bragging too soon. I received my next electric bill yesterday and I consumed 1349 kWh's last month. Dang! This month has some serous Missouri A/C usage on it. $119.29 makes it just under $0.09 / kWh, but like I said, I've got the radon fan running 1/2 has much now, two computers are being shut down when not in use, and Mrs. Mo Heat is still promising to decommission one of our 3 refrigerators (jeeze!) as I think I've finally convinced her that not everyone at Mo Heat Manor needs their own personal refrigerator.
Click to expand...


It's a start.....two gotchas though: 1) you the customer must pay for the new meter it will require as stated above by another poster and 2) it's not a direct 1 for 1 offset since they only pay you the "utility avoided cost" when you sell to them. When a utility generates energy, there's a "generation cost" which is stuff such as fuel, etc., and then there's a "transmission cost".  Where I live (Ohio) the two costs are similar: I pay 10 cents/KW-hr.... about 5 cents for power generation and about 5 cents for transmission cost.  When you sell to a power company, most will only give you the 5 cents it costs them to generate the power and not the 5 cents transmission cost and this is what they mean by the "utility avoided cost"....but again, it's a start. Bottom line: you'd have to generate about twice the number of KW-hrs you use to completely offset your bill but again, it's a good start for someone who might be doing it anyway and it could mean the difference for a person for whom it's marginal anyway..........


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## Mo Heat

Kilted said:
			
		

> Science of Big Waves
> http://www.kqed.org/quest/television/view/249
> -- Brandy



Kowabunga!


----------



## BrotherBart

Mo Heat said:
			
		

> Kilted said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Science of Big Waves
> http://www.kqed.org/quest/television/view/249
> -- Brandy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kowabunga!
Click to expand...


"Ok Moon-Doggie. Go catch a few of those gnarly majors. I'll be out shortly. Honest dude, I will. I'm gonna stay here and hang  with Annette for a little bit. Good luck brohah."


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## velvetfoot

244 in June.


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## djrobx

> I think that's low.  My last reading was 2638 kwh for 2 months.  We have electric dryer, AC (not used much in that period) a Pool, 2 fridges 1 freezer, and  well pump. all lights are CF's  Overall, the number  isn't that awful.  but I'd sure like to get it down to 1000 for 2 months.


I think *that's* low!  For the month of April we somehow used 1100kwh in our 1350 sq foot home.   No AC use (although we have attic fans that got heavy use).   We have just one relatively new refrigerator.   Computers all have LCDs.   Admittedly we had not gone CFL yet but we don't really use the lights much (we watch TV in the dark in the evenings and get by on the fluorescent under cabinet accent lighting).   Gas stove,  water heater, and clothes dryer. 

I've been running around with a kill-a-watt.   The other "factors" are:

Fish tank = 40-140w depending on heating
Outdoor pond pump = 60w
3 computers running 24x7 ... two at around 150W, the third at around 60W (mac mini)
Two DVRs that use 45w each.

A couple interesting gobblers are the coffee maker used every day set to 3 hr auto-shut-off.  We just replaced that today with a thermal model.   Computer speakers that used 40w even when off.   

My mother has about the same KwH usage but she has two older fridges, incandescent, a pool, runs her AC all the time with poorer insulation (no attic fan), has a 24x7 computer with a CRT ... I just don't get it. 

I've replaced almost all my lights with CFLs, and got two of the three computers working with S3 standby which works quite well.   I know my bill will drop proportionally to my conservation efforts but I can't help but think someting is fundamentally wrong.


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## jjbaer

DJRobX said:
			
		

> I think that's low. My last reading was 2638 kwh for 2 months. We have electric dryer, AC (not used much in that period) a Pool, 2 fridges 1 freezer, and well pump. all lights are CF's Overall, the number isn't that awful. but I'd sure like to get it down to 1000 for 2 months.
> 
> 
> 
> I think *that's* low! For the month of April we somehow used 1100kwh in our 1350 sq foot home. No AC use (although we have attic fans that got heavy use). We have just one relatively new refrigerator. Computers all have LCDs. Admittedly we had not gone CFL yet but we don't really use the lights much (we watch TV in the dark in the evenings and get by on the fluorescent under cabinet accent lighting). Gas stove, water heater, and clothes dryer.
> 
> I've been running around with a kill-a-watt. The other "factors" are:
> 
> Fish tank = 40-1 depending on heating
> Outdoor pond pump = 60w
> 3 computers running 24x7 ... two at around 150W, the third at around 60W (mac mini)
> Two DVRs that use 45w each.
> 
> A couple interesting gobblers are the coffee maker used every day set to 3 hr auto-shut-off. We just replaced that today with a thermal model. Computer speakers that used 40w even when off.
> 
> My mother has about the same KwH usage but she has two older fridges, incandescent, a pool, runs her AC all the time with poorer insulation (no attic fan), has a 24x7 computer with a CRT ... I just don't get it.
> 
> I've replaced almost all my lights with CFLs, and got two of the three computers working with S3 standby which works quite well. I know my bill will drop proportionally to my conservation efforts but I can't help but think someting is fundamentally wrong.
Click to expand...



You've got the "tortise and the hare" syndrome......the tortise ran slow but all the time.....your "tortoises" are the pond pump, the computers the fish tank and the two DVR's......they don't use that much power (so in that sense they're the "tortise" because they run slow) but they run all the time and in the end, the tortise consumes far more power than does the faster (but less frequently) running "hare".....in this case, the tortise sucks up the most power. When you add the 60W pump, the two 150W computers the 60W computer, the two 45w DVR's, and the approx 60 W fish pump/heater, you've got 570 watts running for about 720 hrs per month. That's 410 Kw-hrs per month...in only a few devices............ add to that two attic fans (about 250 watts each) that might run 1/3 the time and that's another 120 Kw-hrs or so per month for a total thus far of 530....half your electricity!

Tips for reducing costs: 

1) put the pond pump on a timer.......why run it when no-one is around to see it......... knock it down to, say, from 10AM - 10 PM. If fish are in the pond, I would think they'd survive the outage. Savings: 23 KW-hr/month. 

2) turn of the computers when not in use. Unless they're servers and must be up 24/7, you're wasting energy. Turning them off when not being used will save about 75% of their energy consumption. Savings on all three computers: about 194 Kw-hr/mo

3) with a house of only 1300 sq ft, one attic fan (well placed) should suffice. Turn-off one fan. Savings: about 60KW-hr/month

4) Unplug the speakers until needed. Savings: 29 KW-HR/month 

5) put the DVR's on an on/off switch that actually kills the power when not used. Don't know if this is possible because it has a clock and if you record, well then it has to be up all the time.

6) a big one here.......turn off or remove from the wall all battery chargers even if they aren't charging batteries at the time. I have seven battery chargers and I either unplug them or put them on a power strip (power strip still consumes a bit). 

Total savings with just these first four reductions alone is about 306KW-hr/month.........28% of your bill! Then you can attack other items like parasitic loads from battery chargers, replace bulbs with CFC's, etc. and knock down another 10% or so...........in all, you can easily reduce your electric by 40%....50% if you're a bit of a miser! 

As an example: I have a 1660 sq ft ranch that was built in 1952 and is well insulated. It has an attic fan, a 2.5 ton whole-house air conditioner that I use frequently, an electric dryer, washer, two computers, two laser printers, one CRT, one LCD, a laptop, three tv's, two DVD players, two VHS tape machines, a gas water heater that has a power vent fan on it, dishwasher, one fridge/freezer combination, a large microwave, an all electric range/oven, outdoor landscape lighting, two sump pumps, two electric garage door openers, 5 sets of outdoor security lights (2, 40w bulbs in each for a total of 10 bulbs, but they're only on when the motion activated sensor commands them but the sensor itself is a 24/7 drain), two bathroom fans, a radon fan and one power hog halogen lamp that my wife likes that sucks 300W and is on about 3 hrs/day. My last months bill was about 577 KW-hrs and the one before that about 530 KW-hr. Also, I have not yet put my TV's 

There are additional hints (not already mentioned) to using some of the above that save money: 

1) dishwasher: wait until full before running it....I run mine once every 3 days and not daily......
2) electric range top: when I heat a can of soup, the burner is on for only about 2 min....I turn it off and the soup's still cold but the burner has "stored heat" and after 4 more min (with the burner off) the soup's hot!
3) security lights: they're only there to illuminate and/or ward off unwnated visitors so why use 100 watt bulbs? I use 40 watt bulbs and they're great! 
4) landscape lights...again, only there to illuminate....I dumped the 20 watt bulbs it came with went to 10 watt bulbs instead.....50% savings and hard to tell that I sacrificed anything...... 
5) power adapters: unplug until you're ready to charge a battery, then charge it, remove the battery, and unplug the charger.
6) Use CFC's where possible. A 23-Watt CFC replacing a 75 watt incandescent that's used 4 hrs/day, saves 6 kw-hr/month!
7) get rid of those conventional 4 watt or so nightlight bulbs........three 4-watt bulbs burning 24/7 use almost 9 Kw-hrs/mo......about 1% of your bill! Use those flat glow panel ones instead that use about 1 cent of electricity per month or less!

Bottom line: you can easily reduce your bill by 50%.....look for the "tortoises" and kill them.....LOL


----------



## wg_bent

DJRobX said:
			
		

> I think that's low.  My last reading was 2638 kwh for 2 months.  We have electric dryer, AC (not used much in that period) a Pool, 2 fridges 1 freezer, and  well pump. all lights are CF's  Overall, the number  isn't that awful.  but I'd sure like to get it down to 1000 for 2 months.
> 
> 
> 
> I think *that's* low!  For the month of April we somehow used 1100kwh in our 1350 sq foot home.   No AC use (although we have attic fans that got heavy use).   We have just one relatively new refrigerator.   Computers all have LCDs.   Admittedly we had not gone CFL yet but we don't really use the lights much (we watch TV in the dark in the evenings and get by on the fluorescent under cabinet accent lighting).   Gas stove,  water heater, and clothes dryer.
> 
> I've been running around with a kill-a-watt.   The other "factors" are:
> 
> Fish tank = 40-140w depending on heating
> Outdoor pond pump = 60w
> 3 computers running 24x7 ... two at around 150W, the third at around 60W (mac mini)
> Two DVRs that use 45w each.
> 
> A couple interesting gobblers are the coffee maker used every day set to 3 hr auto-shut-off.  We just replaced that today with a thermal model.   Computer speakers that used 40w even when off.
> 
> My mother has about the same KwH usage but she has two older fridges, incandescent, a pool, runs her AC all the time with poorer insulation (no attic fan), has a 24x7 computer with a CRT ... I just don't get it.
> 
> I've replaced almost all my lights with CFLs, and got two of the three computers working with S3 standby which works quite well.   I know my bill will drop proportionally to my conservation efforts but I can't help but think someting is fundamentally wrong.
Click to expand...


A lot of people here have heard my story about my well pump.   Check things like that.  Hidden consumers.  A few years ago, I noticed that our water pressure had been low since we bought the house.  We also noticed our electric bill was huge.  One day, my wife said those two things in the same sentence and the little switch in my head put 2 and 2 together.  We replace the pump and the cracked pipe 300ft down the hole (how the hell does THAT happen??!!???) and our bill dropped by 1/3.  Older fridges are another source.  I'm going to get a kill-a-watt meter this week to start looking for the rest of ours.  This bill is awful.  Thanks to you all for offering me more perspective on it.


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## jjbaer

Warren said:
			
		

> A lot of people here have heard my story about my well pump.   Check things like that.  Hidden consumers.  A few years ago, I noticed that our water pressure had been low since we bought the house.  We also noticed our electric bill was huge.  One day, my wife said those two things in the same sentence and the little switch in my head put 2 and 2 together.  We replace the pump and the cracked pipe 300ft down the hole (how the hell does THAT happen??!!???) and our bill dropped by 1/3.  Older fridges are another source.  I'm going to get a kill-a-watt meter this week to start looking for the rest of ours.  This bill is awful.  Thanks to you all for offering me more perspective on it.




Warren,

Some day when nothing is running, go outside and watch the electric meter and calculate the "continuous parasitic load" that your house draws.  This will tell you what you're paying to have all those battery chargers, VCR's, DVD's, TV's, computers, night lights, etc. plugged-in and in the "hot state"....the "hot state" means the TV's are almost "instant on" because they're in a warmed condition by being plugged into the wall.  Then go KW hunting....... Parasitic loads can be responsible for a significant amount of your power bill...I mean a HUGE percentage!

Here's an example:  if a small device draws even 5 watts continuously, then in a months time (720 hours), this single device consumes 3.6 KW-hrs or, in my case, about 0.75% of my total monthly bill.  Now, I have 7 battery chargers (drills, screwdrivers, hedge trimmer, cell phones, etc) so this represents over 5% of my bill....just by removing them from the wall or putting them on a power strip and not activating them until I need them.  I'm going to check my TV's and DVD's and VCR's and see what they add to the mix but I'll bet it's a lot more than 5 watts.


Bottom line:  conservation alone can reduce your electrical bill by a significant amount.


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## Eric Johnson

After I get my boiler installed, cast, I'm going to attack our electricity usage in a comprehensive way. I think we can do most of what you suggest and probably save a big chunk 'o money.


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## jjbaer

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> After I get my boiler installed, cast, I'm going to attack our electricity usage in a comprehensive way. I think we can do most of what you suggest and probably save a big chunk 'o money.



Might be a good idea for all of us to report back as we get results.  Maybe with something like "parasitic loads and how much we saved by unplugging them"


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## velvetfoot

I don't think plugged in transformers hooked up to a fully charged battery consumes much.  
That's what I remember my Kill A Watt saying.


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## Sandor

The Kill-a-watt is necessary to identify all of the phantom loads. The kids stereos draw 13 and 15 watts each when they are "off". The VCR is 15 watts. The kids TV's is 5 watts each.

All adds up, as Cast points.

The well pump is an interesting thing. I know the bladder tank is beat, need to go down there and change that out... the pump will cycle less often. 

Good suggestions... keep'em coming.


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## jjbaer

Sandor said:
			
		

> The Kill-a-watt is necessary to identify all of the phantom loads. The kids stereos draw 13 and 15 watts each when they are "off". The VCR is 15 watts. The kids TV's is 5 watts each.
> 
> All adds up, as Cast points.
> 
> The well pump is an interesting thing. I know the bladder tank is beat, need to go down there and change that out... the pump will cycle less often.
> 
> Good suggestions... keep'em coming.



Sandor,

Assuming your kids have a total of 2 TV's, those items you mention consume about 53 watts total and at 24/7 they use 38 kw-hrs per month.  At your electric rates these items cost you about $4/month and based on your last bill of about $52, that's about 8% of your bill even though you may never have turned the items on!   ID another group of items like these and unplug them until you need them and you've reduced your bill 16%.  Now that's FREE money and, unlike politics, that's something all of us can agree on... :lol:


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## begreen

Heck no! I want the govt. to pay me for unplugging the idle TV. (jes kidden) 

But hey, 26.5 w per idle TV seems pretty high. I put my Kilowatt on the kid's 1985 Panasonic 23" TV and it is only drawing 4 watts when off.  Regardless, I unplugged it. No need for it to be sucking any juice when not in use.


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## jjbaer

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Heck no! I want the govt. to pay me for unplugging the idle TV. (jes kidden)
> 
> But hey, 26.5 w per idle TV seems pretty high. I put my Kilowatt on the kid's 1985 Panasonic 23" TV and it is only drawing 4 watts when off.  Regardless, I unplugged it. No need for it to be sucking any juice when not in use.



Read an article about one of the new LCD or plasma TV's and the dirty little secret was the amount of parasitic loss it had while plugged in but not being used.......it was MUCH HIGHER than that of a regular TV....need to watch that as consumers....


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## Mo Heat

We're down to 2 refrigerators at Mo Heat Manor. "Old Brown", the ancient fridge in the garage, has been decommissioned and will only be fired up on special occasions when additional cooling capacity is needed on a temporary basis. I lost my Kill-a-watt spreadsheet in my last disk drive crash a couple months ago, but I believe that should save about $15 per month, or between 5 and 10 percent of my bill.

Radon levels continue to be low, so my 12 hour timer will soon be reset to 8 hours. The radon fan sucks about 75 watts.

This is the first month that both computers have regularly been shut down when not in use, which should also help.

Hopefully, all this will be reflected on the next electric bill. I almost feel like I'm cheating someone.


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## BrotherBart

Mo Heat said:
			
		

> I almost feel like I'm cheating someone.



Yeah. This guy:


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## begreen

No worry, it'll be a cold day in hell before my kids have a plasma tv in their rooms. The power consumed when a plasma tv is running is very high. Put your hand on top of one running and it feels like a room heater. 

I checked our LCD TV and it was also low - 5w. Can you point me to the article? We have been considering replacing our living room TV with an LCD unit. I'd like to avoid any model that has a high, off load.


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## keyman512us

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> I don't think plugged in transformers hooked up to a fully charged battery consumes much.
> That's what I remember my Kill A Watt saying.



Might not be...but when you add up all the households that have a similiar load just imagine the wasted energy. The power companies do...lol


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## jjbaer

BeGreen said:
			
		

> No worry, it'll be a cold day in hell before my kids have a plasma tv in their rooms. The power consumed when a plasma tv is running is very high. Put your hand on top of one running and it feels like a room heater.
> 
> I checked our LCD TV and it was also low - 5w. Can you point me to the article? We have been considering replacing our living room TV with an LCD unit. I'd like to avoid any model that has a high, off load.



Now that you mention it, I may have gotten it backwards......I think the dirty little secret was that regular TV's had higher than wanted parasitic loads when "turned off" and that the LCD or plasma ones had higher running loads.....several hundred watts while running.  I'll look for it though.... thanks

edited to add this:   

found this article:  http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060515/news_mz1b15power.html

look at the "box" in the article on the right hand side called "sucking energy".....they compare two TV's (32" CRT and 42" plasma) both run 5 hrs/day.  The crt uses $29/year while running and the plasma uses $88/yr while running.  Also, the article says they're "all over the board" as far as energy consumed but because they're larger than CRT's and for other reasons, LCD's and plasma tend to hog more energy while running.


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## begreen

Yep, plasmas are energy hogs. 4-500watts is common. There are some variables with LCD TVs based on the wattage of the amplifier in them. But in general a 32" LCD set will use about 150-164w running. 

The big issue is the size that TVs have grown to. Obviously a 50" TV is going to use a lot more energy than the 21" tvs that many of us grew up with. If it has a built-in 5 channel 150 w amplifier, it's going to suck even more current when running.


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## Stevebass4

Sandor said:
			
		

> OK, got the last bill in the mail. EVERYTHING in the house is electric.
> 
> I live with 'da women, and two girls, 12 and 16.
> 
> We used 511 Kilowatt hours last month. The bill was 52 bucks.
> 
> This is the lowest bill we have got in the almost two years I have been living here. As a side note, I installed a dishwasher for the women for her birthday 3 months ago. She said it would raise the bill, I said it will lower it. I win.
> 
> Deregulation of the electricity market is going to hit Virginia this year, so tightening up electric use is a priority.
> 
> Electric, for the convenience it provides, is an incredible bargain.



i use between 500 - 600 killawatts a month and my bill is always around $100.00 - now why would a dishwasher be less exopensive than washing dishes by hand (it's just me in the house and i never use the dishwasher)


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## Highbeam

More efficient use of heated water is my guess.


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## jjbaer

mayhem said:
			
		

> What I have a really hard time figuring out is how on earth other people must live when they use 511kwh in a month and think its low.  I'm not slamming you with that, I'm genuinely curious.




I think the avg persons elec bill is about 1,100 KW-hrs/month which assumes some all elec homes and others partial elec because they have NG or propane or coal.  Just guessing but the avg ALL elec home is probably MUCH higher....maybe upwards of 2,200 KW-hrs/month so 511 is absolutely GREAT for an all electric!


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## eba1225

I am NOT all electric, but have a teenage daughter and pre-teen son.  My usage for Nov was 1200 KWH.  But I can say that with the insert my Oil usage is 1/3 of average.


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## jjbaer

eba1225 said:
			
		

> I am NOT all electric, but have a teenage daughter and pre-teen son.  My usage for Nov was 1200 KWH.  But I can say that with the insert my Oil usage is 1/3 of average.



If you heat with oil (or something NOT electrical) how can your bill be so high?  1,200 KW hr/mo is a very large draw for a non-electric home........I have a 1650 sq ft ranch, NG heat, A/C and even when both my daughters were living at home, our bill was about 580 KW hr in Nov for four of us (me, wife and two kids).....A/C is not used in Nov in PA or here in OH so what's driving your consumption so high in Nov?  Also, even in our worst summer month, our bill was about 850 KW-hrs......


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## eba1225

I wish I knew.  We have a two story colonial 2700 sq. ft.

We blow through about 40 KWH per day.  The best day that we ever had was 23 KWH. (Yes that is right I track it every day to try to find out our usage. ) 
Electric dryer doubles the usage, A/C tripples the usage.

Now this really is bothering me.  I think it is time to do more investigative work to find out where the juice is going.

If I had an 850 month I would be estatic.


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## jjbaer

eba1225 said:
			
		

> I wish I knew.  We have a two story colonial 2700 sq. ft.
> 
> We blow through about 40 KWH per day.  The best day that we ever had was 23 KWH. (Yes that is right I track it every day to try to find out our usage. )
> Electric dryer doubles the usage, A/C tripples the usage.
> 
> Now this really is bothering me.  I think it is time to do more investigative work to find out where the juice is going.
> 
> If I had an 850 month I would be estatic.



well, I have a smaller home but the 850 was worst case bill in the summer with the A/C running......a larger home means more items that could be left on and not turned off and therefore consuming more juice....ex:  I have 1.5 baths...maybe you have 3 and if lights are left on in all of them, well, there's 50% more juice right there.  Same for number of lights in the house, etc., but I'd say you could easily drop it below 800.  BTW:  my Nov bill is for about 540 KW-hrs but the two girls are at college.  Would probably be 680 if they were home.


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## Highbeam

I am all electric in 1700 SF. The lights are only a minimal amount of my 1000 KWH per month. The hot tub, water heater, and clothes dryer use the large majority of the juice. The next culprit is the refrigerator. Lighting is a drop in the bucket when you think about it. 

My summer and winter usage are only slight different since I have no AC.


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## velvetfoot

You probably pay a less for your juice in WA than other places though.


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## jjbaer

Highbeam said:
			
		

> I am all electric in 1700 SF. The lights are only a minimal amount of my 1000 KWH per month. The hot tub, water heater, and clothes dryer use the large majority of the juice. The next culprit is the refrigerator. Lighting is a drop in the bucket when you think about it.
> 
> My summer and winter usage are only slight different since I have no AC.



that's pretty good because I figure that if I had an elec hot water heater instead of my NG unit, the equivalent additional electricity I'd use is about 380 KW-hrs/mo more which would bring my elec in Nov to about 920.


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## DiscoInferno

We have a large outside hot tub that's empty now, but when we used to run it the electric bill went through the roof.  It was nearly as bad as the A/C.


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## eba1225

No Hot tub, No Elec Hot water heater (oil furnace heated)

Refrigerator -  Yes, Chest Freezer - Yes, Light - Not left on,
Computers (At least 2) - Yes.


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## jjbaer

eba1225 said:
			
		

> No Hot tub, No Elec Hot water heater (oil furnace heated)
> 
> Refrigerator -  Yes, Chest Freezer - Yes, Light - Not left on,
> Computers (At least 2) - Yes.



when I redid my estimate as though I were to have elec hot water (I don't..I have NG) I came up with about 940 KW-hrs and got to thinking that this may be why yours is so high...now that you say you use oil for hot water, the 1200 KW-hr usage is even more perplexing........unless you have big energy hog devices, you should easily be able to get it down to 800...........


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## Highbeam

I suspect our 40 gallon tank water heater is  the biggest part of my 1000 KwH. The hot tub only adds about 15-25$ per month to our bill based on comparing years with and without the tub. This has been my hot tub experience in another home as well. They really arean't bad if yo uleave the cover on and have good tub insulation. 

As far as the mystery 1200 KwH use I would suggest that you either have a bad meter or a bad appliance. All of the little plug in things are mostly minor consumers. 

You know when the dryer is running and how fast that meter spins. How about the refrigerator units? The good news is that you can put them on a kill-a-watt and see how much they are actually costing you. 

Turn everything off and go check your meter for spinnage. You should have a low speed of spinnage from just the parasites. If it is moving along pretty good and you want to find out why then start turning off breakers to isolate the sucker. 

Our Pacific NW power is pretty cheap but I still want to keep my consumption minimal.


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## GVA

You just said where your power was going.... Teenagers................:cheese: 

Tell the son to unplug the Playstation or game console and the cell phone chargers and the stereo etc...  and all the other stuff in his room Not that the daughter is off the hook too she probably has just as much plugged in too...


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## MountainStoveGuy

Can you BELIEVE a playstation 3 has a 400W power supply??  Game time adds up fast with that kind of usage. 
Sandor, great job. I study electric bills on a daily basis, and the mean that my clients use is around 800kWh's..


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## barnartist

mountainguy,
How much power does a Wii use? And when its off?


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