# Lime then fertilizer?



## titan

I just picked up a few bags of pelletized lime and nitrogen based grass fertilizer. Can i apply both at the same time?
What works best for a green - chemical - free lawn?Should I apply lime then wait a few days before applying the fertilizer?


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## Harley

It really all depends.  The best way to judge that would be to get a pH test done on the soil to know where you are before you put the lime down.  I believe the steps would be to adjust the pH first, and then add the fert.  I don't think it would be good to drop one down on top of the other, but a lot of that depends on your location and soil conditions..  A high N should help green up the lawn, but you need to make sure it will be able to get where it needs to go.


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## HarryBack

you can do both at the same time. Harley is correct in that the only was to get the pH right is to have it tested, then calculate the amount of lime you need to raise the pH. In choosing a fertilizer, you ought to consider more though than just the Nitrogen....theres also phosphate and potash. Think "up, down, and all-around".....the first number, Nitrogen, will cause the grass to grow and green up, above the ground, but wont do alot for root structure. The phosphate encourages root development, which is important, especially in dry areas, and the potash helps the overall health of the grass (all-around). A good balanced fertilizer is best. Anyhow, Im sure theres guys here who know alot more abt this than I do, so I'll let them take it away.....


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## restorer

Some garden centers can test your soil. In the US many state extension services will test real cheap, or free. I don't know what agency you have in Canada, but there should be some Agricultural agency. If you supplement without , you are just throwing chemicals that may or may not help. In some areas the soil conditions are universally consistent. Where I am it's alkaline, has a unique standard fertilizing formula for grass, you area may also. It's worth the test even if you have to use a commercial lab and pay a little more. 

BTW, I am familiar with lime as a soil supplement, but have always thought of it not being a topical. I have always thought it needed to be mixed with the soil. My part of the country produces a lot of lime for agri and industry. I have only seem it in a dry powder form, have I missed something? I don't have any lawn or garden fight now, so I have not kept up with the soil supplements.


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## Corie

I only know a little about this from my landscaping days, but we used to apply the powdered lime directly to the top of the grass using a spreader.  It would make it green up in now time, HOWEVER if you miss even the smallest strip down the lawn, it will be a different color in a few weeks.  Don't ask how I know about that.


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## elkimmeg

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rapitest-Soil-T...ryZ20540QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem


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## Gooserider

I've been looking at soil test stuff in the past few days...  According to the stuff that came with one of my soil test gizmo's  they said AVOID applying lime at the same time as chemical or organic fertilizer.  They also suggested adding lime before planting, either fall, winter, or early spring.  

Elsewhere in the folder -
Avoid adding lime at the same time as sulfate of amonia, superphosphate, basic slag, or animal manures.  Lime may be used in combination with sulfate of potash or muriate of potash.  

It is because of the natural drop in pH that there is such an emphasis on adding lime.  While lime stimulates the availability of most plant foods, you will see from the pH and Plant Nutrient table that soils should not be automatically limed because large amounts of plant food become increasingly "locked up" over pH 7.

It sounds to me like if you haven't done any testing, you should do that first, then consider what to add based on those results.

Gooserider


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## NewtownPA

Here is the nutrient availibility chart. 

From what I know (I belong to a lawn care forum as well) the best time to apply lime is the fall, after your last mowing. You should also apply "winterizer" at that time (contains potassium and slow-release nitrogen).

Three important steps for a nice lawn:

1. Apply a pre-emergent herbicide in the very early spring (Around mid-March for me) to control Crabgrass (eg. Scotts Turfbuilder with HALTS). It's too late to do that now.
2. Mow your grass HIGH. Too many people make the mistake of mowing too low. For Kentucky Bluegrass shoot for 2.5 - 3.5 inches high. Also keep your blades SHARP - as in kitchen-knife SHARP!
3. Apply grub control two weeks after Japaneese beetles hatch. This will ensure that the mating beetles' eggs are killed. Japaneese beetles are a destroyer of lawns and they are easiest to kill when in the egg/larva stage. GrubEx is a very good brand.


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## DiscoInferno

When we first bought our house I fertilized, watered, aerated, thatched, and reseeded as needed.  But when the typical drought hit in july/august all I had to show was a dormant lawn and a high water bill.  Now I find mowing the lawn to be a boring chore, and I don't wish to encourage my lawn to grow any faster than it already does.


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## Gooserider

I have never understood the logic of putting junk on a lawn in order to make it grow - just so that you have to MOW it more often!  IMHO one of the best colors to see in a lawn is yellow - as in dandelions which make my bees happy, next best is brown, cause that means it isn't growing much so I won't have to mow for a while.  I don't water, except when it rains...  I don't put chemicals on the grass except that this spring I was sprinkling my wood ash on it to get rid of it - so far that hasn't visibly made it grow, so I may do it again next year...

OTOH, if one is doing a garden patch, there might be a reason to use fertilizer on that - My bee supply lady raises llama's and I occasionally go down to her place and pick up a load of "llamadoo" for the garden patch - works great, low odor, high fertilizer value...  It's also one of the few times where one appreciates getting a load of chit from a business person  :lol: 

Gooserider


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## titan

The less it grows, the happier I'll be.I just want it to be uniformly green.....maybe I oughta just let the moss take over,that should be low maintenance anyway.


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## Gooserider

Titan said:
			
		

> The less it grows, the happier I'll be.I just want it to be uniformly green.....maybe I oughta just let the moss take over,that should be low maintenance anyway.


Some folks report good success with clover seed - it doesn't grow that tall and it's green....

Gooserider


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## DiscoInferno

Clover is taking over swaths of my lawn, but I didn't plant it.  It's true that those areas don't need a lot of mowing.  Other non-grass plants are taking over other sections.  But my motto is. if it's greenish and grows in the designated "lawn" area, I mow it and call it the lawn.   :coolsmirk:


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## senorFrog

Apply the peletized lime at the beginning of March, in MASS.  You can use a rotary spreaded for this is you're using the pelletized lime.  Much easier than using a drop spreader and non-pelletized lime.

Fetilize around mid April, when the forsythia start to bloom (that yellow bush you notice first).  I use either Scotts Super Turfbuilderw/Halts (again the forsythia is your clue when using a pre-emergence), Super Turfbuilder or SUper Turfbuilder w/2 on.  The iron did a nice job this year.  

Forsythia pic: http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&resnum=0&q=forsythia&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi

I might give organics a shot next year.  The MNLA Turf-O-Ganic seems good and more reasonably priced than others.

Weed-B-Gone for spot treatments of weeds.  Be careful, mix to strong and you'll burn your lawn out!

Grub control in mid June.  I use Bayer Advanced because it has Merit.  Grubex didn't have any Merit for while.  It may have it now.

I don't fertilize again until November w/the Scotts winterizer.  

Re mowing, I bag my clippings in the spring.  I may give mulching the grass a shot in the dry summer this year.  I mulched my leaves last year with great results.  Get a set of Gator Blades.  I buy mine here: http://www.jackssmallengines.com/gator.cfm

They have something now at home depot/lowes called the Viper blade.  It's a gator blade knock off.  Haven't used but did look at it in the store.  Looks poorly made and a one size fits all.  The gators work great, are very inexpensive (like $12-$14) and are made specifically for most models of tractors and mowers.  Call up jacks and they'll help you decide which one you need.  PLEASE GIVE THEM A SHOT.  I waited three long years and tried a variety of gadgets to deal with the leaves.  I am very picky!  These things work great on leaves!

Re clover, I've heard all good lawns are at least 25% clover.  So, no weed-b-gone to the clover.


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## titan

A couple years back,A guy @ work was looking to unload his deceased father's goat...I tried to talk my wife into letting the free goat look after our lawn care.As you may have guessed, I'm still using my mower;why do women have to look a "gift-goat" in the mouth? :long:


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## senorFrog

Titan said:
			
		

> A couple years back,A guy @ work was looking to unload his deceased father's goat...I tried to talk my wife into letting the free goat look after our lawn care.As you may have guessed, I'm still using my mower;why do women have to look a "gift-goat" in the mouth? :long:



Geez, I'm sure glad I wrote all that up for you.  Why ask the question about lime, fertilizer or lawns if you don't care.


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## titan

Relax Mrfrog-that was a passing joke from my previous homestead.I had 5 partiallywooded acres of pasture.Now that my wife moved me into suburbia I'm supposed to keep my Kentucky blue as blue as the neighbors'.In the end I like a tidy,well-kept yard, BUT it's still just a lawn


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## NewtownPA

Titan said:
			
		

> ...just a lawn



"Just a lawn"!   Ha! 

Hey, some of us are as proud of our "just a lawn" as we are proud of our "just a woodpile"! 


I allow myslef to ENJOY doing lawn care as a hobby since then I have something to look forward to once I am done with my wood stove for the season. I'm learning to enjoy each season because it brings something different and fun to my life. 



senorFrog,

You've got some good advice there. This spring I bought the new Toro Personal Pace Recycler mower (awesome mower!) and I specially ordered GATOR blades (from the same place you got them from!)! Two of them in fact. Those blades are awesome once they are sharpened! I never need to bag my grass (and it's better to mulch your grass anyway).


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## Gooserider

Got a good scrounge today, though it doesn't exactly count for the wood scrounge types...  Went over to my bee supplier's house, she also raises llammas, and I was able to fill 12 recycled 50lb llamma chow bags with "recycled llamma chow" - one of the few times a business that you trade with gives you a bunch of chit and you say thanks  :lol: 

I figure that 10 bags or so ought to do wonders for my approximately 10 x 40 berry and garden patch to be.  I'm also hitting it with about 15 gallons of wood ash, so I ought to have good fertile soil when all is done.  (I will probably offer the other two bags to my neighbors in exchange for their letting me borrow their roto-tiller.

I figure on keeping the llammadoo off the grass though, as it is already excessively green in spots.  However I am VERY happy with this years dandelion crop - the lawn is a wonderful shade of yellow and the bees are really happy with it....  Nice thing about dandelions is that they don't take a whole lot of mowing, just wait until they mostly get seed heads, then run over them to get the seeds airborn and spread around the neighboor hood...  I love the spirit of community sharing!  :coolgrin: 

Gooserider


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## begreen

Sounds like you're due to make some dandelion wine Goose. Maybe come out with the first dandelion mead!


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## Gooserider

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Sounds like you're due to make some dandelion wine Goose. Maybe come out with the first dandelion mead!



The idea is tempting, BG, but I don't do it for a couple of reasons...  

1. It is a huge amount of work - the flowers take a fairly heavy amount of processing, considering that it must be done one flower at a time.  (You have to remove the green "cup" and the stem from each blossom or the result will be bitter...) and it takes a lot of flowers.

2. The bees need them - If I grab the flowers it takes them away from the bees, and the dandelion plays a major role this time of year, as it is one of the first really prolific high nectar / high pollen flowers. Dandelions are a bee favorite almost any time they're available, but it are particularly useful in the early part of the year.  

The hive population drops drastically over the course of the winter, coming into spring with basically just enough to start raising the next generation.  As the weather starts to warm, the queen starts laying eggs again (she shuts down for most of the winter), and they begin raising young, but it is a slow process at first as they can't care for more than a certain amount of brood with the surviving workers (who need to keep the brood warm among other things)  As the weather warms, and the population starts to grow, the queen shifts into "high gear" and will start laying over a thousand eggs a day, all of which require feeding, care, etc.  The dandelion is a critical nectar source at this time, and taking it away would slow the hive population growth, which would impact my honey production later in the season - I want the population to get into the 30-50 thousand bee range as quickly as possible, and stay that way most of the summer, because that will give me maximum honey production.

Now if I found a big field of somebody elses dandelions and was invited to scrounge, it might be a different matter....   

Gooserider


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## jpl1nh

You can certainly apply lime and fertilizer at the same time.  Lime is a relatively slow acting mineral, it's influence on pH will take weeks to exert itself.  And it would be a good idea to get a simple pH analysis done on your lawn though in your area your soil will almost certainly need liming to raise the pH towards more optimum turf conditions.  Chemical fertilizers are salts, they will dissolve in water, and are very fast acting.  Because chemical fertilizers are salts, they can burn in larger quantities just like table salt or rock salt would.  Apply at half the recommended rate back and forth one way and then the remainder back and forth at a 90% angle to the first application to avoid the dreaded "stripe" appearance.   To go as chemical free as possible, consider using a mulching mower.  Those grass clippings have a lot of nutrients in them so reuse them.  A good mulcher cuts them into small enough peices that they are easily digested back into the soil.  When you spring fertilize, most of the groth activity occurs where it is warmest, ie the grass blades and you get faster leaf growth (a lot of mowing), when you fall fertilize the ground is warmer than the air and you get stronger root growth which is the key to strong grass plants.  Mowing frequently (groan) is the key to a healthy lawn with minimum chemical applications.  You should try to never remove more than 40% of the grass blade at any one time to avoid shocking the plant.  A healthy lawn will have far less weed invasion.  Even so, you may have to use a chemical broad leaf weed control every 2nd or third year to keep things within reason. Insects (&%#@*!) may just plain be a fact of life.  In New Hampshire, every year I have problems with sod web worm.  I use one application of chemical insecticide around the end of June to minimize the damage.  I have to research what I used last year but it was the lowest toxicity to earthworms that still provided good control.  You may deal with chinch bug, Japanese beetle and/or June bug grubs, or not much at all.  Use insecticides as seldom as you can get away with and pay attention to the correct rate of application and that they are effective aginst the pest you have.  Too little or too much are equally bad, too little because you make a wasted application that doesn't give you control.  Also pay atention to damage to fish or aquatic creatures due to runoff if you live near water sources and try to choose a material that is not toxic to fish.  The last couple of years I have been using my mulching mower to mulch all my leaves back into the lawn in the fall.  I can mulch about 4-5" of dry leaves into the lawn over the few weeks they are coming off the trees.  It seems like a lot but by a month into the spring growing season they have been almost completely absorbed adding valuable organic matter and nutrients!  You must mulch them though, not leave them whole where they would mat and suffocate your lawn.  I do add fertilzer and extra lime in the spring to provide the nutrients necessary for the leaves to decompose.  So, to summerize, use a mulching mower and mow frequently,  use weed and insect control only when needed.  In the early fall do your main fertilizer application (Mil-Organite, and Cock-aDoodle-Doo are good slow release non chemical fertizers for lawns, though I have nothing against chemical fertilizer).  Mulch all your leave into you lawn and lime.  In spring, a light fertilizer application a week or two into the growing season and lime again if necessary.  Again, mow frequently.  Water occasionally and deeply if very dry, though grass can tolerate some drought and bounce back okay.  Just try to avoid the grass getting real crispy.


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## webbie

To clarify the lime bit.....?

Our lawn needs lime - lots of it. We had it tested, put lime on at least twice and it still needs more - probably a lot more. We are using pelletized.

So, the question is, can a relatively small application of pelletized lime be put down at virtually any time (by itself), or should one only do spring/fall?


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## senorFrog

Webmaster said:
			
		

> To clarify the lime bit.....?
> 
> Our lawn needs lime - lots of it. We had it tested, put lime on at least twice and it still needs more - probably a lot more. We are using pelletized.
> 
> So, the question is, can a relatively small application of pelletized lime be put down at virtually any time (by itself), or should one only do spring/fall?



Craig, I can't answer your question specifically.  What I was told by a very knowledgable friend is that it's virtually impossible to over-lime here in New England.  The soil is just so naturally acidic.  He also told me that lime takes several months to work itself into the soil.  I've found this to be true, you can see the pellets will take weeks to disolve and break up.  Even with all the snow, sleet melting or rain we have around here.  I put mine down very early in the spring.  You could put it down in late fall too.  Lime comes in small bags and you have to put in on heavy.  I use about 25-30 bags per year.  I use the pelletized too so I can put it down with a rotary spreader and it's nice five foot swath. 

I 've read very conflicting info on if you can put down lime and fertilizer at the same time.  Not that it will do any harm.  More like one will cancel the other out.  I put it on separately.

I'm not sure if lime will "burn" grass like fertilizer will if you put it down in the hot summer.

PS - Why not put down a heavy application in the fall after leaf season.  Then another in early spring?


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## begreen

I suspect this will be heresy to some, but I keep looking for ways to reduce the amount of lawn. Creative landscaping provides much more visual interest than a slab of green. Good landcaping can provide food and habitat for many birds. 

A lawn really does little for the environment and can be replaced by much more interesting landscaping or other low-maintenance, low water ground covers. Lime is not a big deal, but chemical fertilizers, weed killers and pesticides are. The fact that lawns create such a large-scale market for pesticides and herbicides is frightening. That stuff can and does eventually accumulate and show up in ground waters. In some countries it's banned outright.

But if you are going to pamper a lawn, getting the ph correct is the right place to start. AFAIK, there isn't a wrong time to apply lime. 

http://reallawnsense.com/blog/?page_id=65


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## senorFrog

BeGreen, I don't want to flame you, but just realize the irony that something perfectly normal and acceptable to you, like burning wood for heat is heresy to some.  E.g. Burning Issues website.  An woodstove to them is like a lawns for you.  BTW I do have quite a bit of forrested and landscaped area in addition to my lawn.  People are so quick now to judge others and then pass laws prohibiting what they can and cannot do.  We have become a nation of busy bodies minding everyone elses business instead of minding our own.


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## 11 Bravo

Newb here........Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents worth since I am a bit of a lawn fanatic. I don't believe you could really "over-lime". And I throw it on at anytime of the growing season and water a  bit. But the two secrets I have discovered are   1) dont forget the crab grass preventer    2) mow it long, keep the grass at least 4" in length       Those 2 rules have negated my lawn problems over the years.


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## webbie

No doubt cutting back on my 3/4 of an acre of open grass is a big goal. We have already turned about 20% of it to mulch and trees and gardens....but that still leaves a lot of green! Actually, this is really the first lawn I have had in my life. In NJ we lived in the "pines" with full forest on our acre and no topsoil, let alone grass. It was great - but up here in New England we would get depressed if we didn't have open area (more light and sun).....and, of course, the house came this way so we have little choice.

But we were talking today about digging up more and more of that lawn and planting other stuff. Ideally, I'd have 1/4 acre or so of grass and the rest planting.

Thanks for the liming tips.


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## Sandor

senorFrog said:
			
		

> BeGreen, I don't want to flame you, but just realize the irony that something perfectly normal and acceptable to you, like burning wood for heat is heresy to some.  E.g. Burning Issues website.  An woodstove to them is like a lawns for you.  BTW I do have quite a bit of forrested and landscaped area in addition to my lawn.  People are so quick now to judge others and then pass laws prohibiting what they can and cannot do.  We have become a nation of busy bodies minding everyone elses business instead of minding our own.



Frog, you are not offering _anything_ useful to the discussion. 

BeGreen, I agree with you 100 percent. I have personally tried to eliminate as much lawn as possible, like expanding the garden and making large beds planted with blueberries, blackberries and raspberries.

General Comments:

1. Don't kill the clover, its a nitrogen fixer and the bees like it.
2. Why in the world is anyone buying lime? Use your woodstove ash to raise the PH.


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## jpl1nh

Webmaster said:
			
		

> To clarify the lime bit.....?
> 
> Our lawn needs lime - lots of it. We had it tested, put lime on at least twice and it still needs more - probably a lot more. We are using pelletized.
> 
> So, the question is, can a relatively small application of pelletized lime be put down at virtually any time (by itself), or should one only do spring/fall?


 Craig, lime can be put down anytime, and in combination with fertilzer or not.  Chemical fertilizers are salts, meaning that they break into electronically charged ionic form upon contact with water.  For plant cell membranes high levels of these charged ions interfere with their ability to move water and nutrients into root systems.  The presence of high salt levels  draws water out of root tissue as the plant stuggles to dilute the exterior salt levels in a desperate attempt to acheive a more nuetral electric environment in which the root membranes could function effetively.  The end result of these high salt levels is that the plant dehydrates and dies.  With chemical fertilizer, a little is good, a lot is disasterous.  Lime is not a salt.   Lime is calcium or magnesium compounds ground into powder. Usually the calcium and magnesium come from limestone rock. They could come from marl, oyster shells, or industrial byproducts. Lime makes soil pH higher.  As such it is a relativley inert material and unlike chemical fertilizer, it has no potential negative effect in higher concentrations (unless you put a couple of inches down and smother the plants)  As SF said, it exerts its changes in soil pH over weeks and weeks which is why lime is often recommended as a fall ammendment so that is has the winter to take effect.  Yes, here in the acidic soils of the Northeast, its best to use lime often and okay to use it fairly freely and at anytime, with or without fertilizer appliactions.  You could even apply it during a drought since it has no effect on plant water systems, though it won't start to exert any effect until water has started to move it into the soil.


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## senorFrog

Sandor said:
			
		

> Frog, you are not offering _anything_ useful to the discussion.



The discussion is about liming and lawn care to which I offered useful advice.  Try re-reading the thread.

BTW, BG's comment was exactly useful either.


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## Sandor

senorFrog said:
			
		

> Sandor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Frog, you are not offering _anything_ useful to the discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The discussion is about liming and lawn care to which I offered useful advice.  Try re-reading the thread.
> 
> BTW, BG's comment was exactly useful either.
Click to expand...


Obviously, my comment was in reference to the BS I put in the shaded quote.

BG's comment was useful, its just that some closed minded individuals like yourself don't really give a flying F about anything, but themselves.

If you don't think that there are ramifications from millions of homeowners dumping millions of tons of chemicals on their yard, to maintain a "nice appearance", then you are simply clueless. (Or you don't give a "F")

I live on the Chesapeake Bay, and the evidence is not-good.

I built a house in a lake community in Maryland. I was the first house in. When I built the house, the lake offered great largemouth bass fishing, and was a sanctuary for wildlife. As all of the jerks built their "Lakefront Home", they cut all of the growth down by the water to "have a view I paid for" and planted grass.

I was the President of the Assoc and recommended to all homeowners that they curb their use of fertilizers and lawn chemicals.

Yeah right. It took about five years to turn this lake into a slimy green POS. But everyone had a pretty green yard! 

Yep, mind your own business and trash the place for others that happen to give a flying F.

BTW, to use your words "I don't want to flame you, but...."

Good Day!


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## begreen

Whoa, touchy subject. SF, I don't belong to the lawn police or anything. It's just that in our region we've seen some very positive results from reducing runoff from lawns into streams. This is particularly noticeable near local golf courses. The more we pave paradise, the less habitat there is for the fish, birds and bees - some of the very things we cherish in paradise. Also, due to periodic local droughts, some local areas and cities in our region have learned through strictly enforced water rationing to just live with a brown lawn. Ours is going brown right now due to very low rainfall this year. No big deal, it will be green again come October. 

My posting was not to inflame, or put anyone on the defensive, but to suggest that there are nice alternatives to the perfect manor lawn. We still have lawn and will continue to. But we are reducing it, where opportunity presents itself and the result is pretty nice. One thing we are thinking about now is converting a field next to the house which I mow, to lavender or mint.


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## Gooserider

One of the options to consider as an alternative to lawns is a "wildflower meadow" where you basically just scatter a great deal of wildflower seed onto bare (or close to bare) ground, and let it grow.  No fertilizer, no planning, needs to be mowed maybe once or twice a year...  Lots of pretty flowers in different colors and a fairly steady change as one variety starts up and another one fades out.

We've gotten seeds for this sort of thing from The Vermont Widlflower Farm which we've been to, and has a most impressive setup.  American Meadows looks like a similar type of operation.  Google turns up a great many other options as well.

Gooserider


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## laynes69

Just like fertilizers, there are  2 common types of lime. Pelletized and the white powdered lime. The powdered lime will react quicker and the pelletized lime will be slower releasing. The pelletized lime has to break down over time. Alot of people recommend using slow releasing fertilizers for the lawn so they don't get burned. As far as wood ash goes, It works but requires alot more to do what the lime does. Our garden is 50x100 feet, I put over 100 gallons of wood ash on the garden, and 20 gallons of the pelletized lime. And I still had to add more lime to get my ph up in the garden. Do a soil test at least 40 days after adding your goodies to the lawn, and it should tell you where your at. It would be hard to hurt the lawn with lime. Also the recommendation of P & K with the nitrogen is a good idea. But, Too much nitrogen will burn your lawn. I have never had a problem adding lime with fertilizers.


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## senorFrog

Sandor said:
			
		

> Obviously, my comment was in reference to the BS I put in the shaded quote.
> 
> BG's comment was useful, its just that some closed minded individuals like yourself don't really give a flying F about anything, but themselves.
> 
> If you don't think that there are ramifications from millions of homeowners dumping millions of tons of chemicals on their yard, to maintain a "nice appearance", then you are simply clueless. (Or you don't give a "F")
> 
> ...
> 
> Yep, mind your own business and trash the place for others that happen to give a flying F.
> 
> BTW, to use your words "I don't want to flame you, but...."



Sandor, There are good alternatives to chemical fertilizer such as organics or using mulching blades.  However, the libertarian streak in me says I'll quit fertilizing my lawn when you quit selfishly clear cutting and pumping dangerous greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere just for your own personal comfort .  Nuff said?  

BTW, Your prolific use of the "F" word was unnecessary and bordering on the ad-hominem.

I've maintained a pretty good record of trying to helpful for well over a year here at hearth.com.  I am slightly soured by the hypocritical attitude that some members possess.  Dogpiling on someone elses thread is just poor taste.


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## littlesmokey

I might be a dummy from the West, but lime adjusts the Ph in soil, it doesn't act as a fertilizer. It does not cntribute to the plant, but changes the acidity of the soil and makes it easier for the plants to draw nutrients. The scum in the water is from excess phosphates and nitrates. Out here we have Lake Taho and Crater Lake. Two of the most pristine water bodies in North America, except, tahao is turning green. Why? people trying to make a little bit of Chicago in a High Desert climate.

Soil supplements and soil builders do just that, improve the growing medium. They are not adding "chemicals", That's from someone who knows a good deal about lime mines and supplements, well, enough to know their value. I, also, see the potash mines East a hundred miles (do you know how big a drag bucket loader has to be to become an aeronautical land mark?) Mulch, manuer and miracle grow are much worse than lime. Even the perc from your septic system is more damaging. Don't blame the primaries. 

Quite frankly I had a lawn when I lived in Phoenix that was the envy of my neighbors and they always asked when I was so green and  for so long (diacondra and rye grass mix). When I told them I didn't use Kentucky Blue Grass, and I only watered once a week with irrigation water and I added  lime when necessary and calcium (crushed oyster shells) when the Ph rose, they asked me to help them.... Writing the dissertation and didn't have time..... 

Polluting is one thing, that's over fertilizing, but supplementing is another. You can grow the most outrageous asperagus with table scraps as the fertilizer, and the right planting hills and good drainage. If you have a 130 day growing season you can get great produce, and don't have to use any chemicals beyond your organic trash. 

Out here I hauled in 5 yard of playground sand and dumped it in the garden beds, I couldn't wait for compost to do the work. I added 50 yards of forest mulch, green and 500 lbs of blood meal. Covered with un printed newspaper four layers and black plastic on top. Have you ever eaten a beef steak tomato that was four inches in diameter, or garlic the size of grapefuit? Never bought a bag of commercial fertilizer, can't stand mr.Symplot.


Back to the Sandor and SenorFrog. Why would you need to plant a lawn on a tidal bay? You are changing the eco-system. You are both bad. And the, " wildflower"  landscapes out here are called XeroScapes. I have poppies from seeds my grandfather saved 60 or more years ago that are outrageous. Gathered in Colorado and Utah in the deserts and high mountains. I save seeds each year and share for free with anyone that wants them. I'm trying to regrow a Sego Lilly field, and a wild honey suckle. (sorry, but all are promised for three years). 

Do your part, screw the neighbors and don't take their crap. Heard a lady down in Utah got cited for letting her lawn turn brown, she was 70+ years old and they cuffed and arrested her when she refused to comply with the Image Police. She couldn't pay her water bill at $50. to water her lawn, remember this is a desert. What's wrong with that picture. Sent money yesterday to a friend in Utah to help pay the fine.......... Why do we need to make a place look like somewhere else?  Man are our priorities screwed up.


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## jpl1nh

lil smokey, you raise some great points.  Namely the lack of appreciation for the natural systems typical of whatever area we live in.  Water use for lawns in the SW?  Now there is a waste of a precious resource!  There is a tendancey to want what we can't have and screw up lots of things in the process.  Also, suburban lawns are one of the worst sources of water pollution nationwide.  (promoted by Scotts and others)  I appreciate the original question starting this thread.  "What works best for a green - chemical - free lawn?"  Admirable goal.  I personally am not a chem free proponant.  I am a proponant of knowing what you are using and how to use it and using it responsibly.  I also am a strong believer in using chemicals only where they are really useful and relatively safe.  Here in NH, bluegrass, fescue, rye mixes thrive in our climate.  That's what I grow.  My dad was a landscape architect.  I worked on a grounds crew where everything was manicured, mulched, clipped.  Drove me nuts that my dad just took natural plants and put them where he wanted things and then kind of let them go.  Took me years to appreciate the beauty and wisdom of his ways.  Today, my back yard landscape is whatever Mother Nature grows there.  I remove some things, let others grow.  Its a little different every year.  Yeah, nothing unusual, but I have gorgeous hemlock, white pine, yellow birch, black birch, white birch etc, just like god planned.  Don't have to fertilize, spray or anything.  I will introduce some things here or there.  I do use some chemicals.  But I strongly advocate reading the label, using as seldom as possible, and appreciating what we have.


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## 11 Bravo

Glad I found this site...Lot's of good lively discussion. You all seem to reallly know your lime so I have a question. I usually put down a little every season. I am in the deep woods of SW Michigan, amongst a forest of nothin but red and white pines on my 3.5 acres that encircle my small lawn. I have been told that I especially need to put down lime because of all the pines. Is this accurate ?


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## jpl1nh

11 Bravo said:
			
		

> Glad I found this site...Lot's of good lively discussion. You all seem to reallly know your lime so I have a question. I usually put down a little every season. I am in the deep woods of SW Michigan, amongst a forest of nothin but red and white pines on my 3.5 acres that encircle my small lawn. I have been told that I especially need to put down lime because of all the pines. Is this accurate ?


  Absolutely.  Pines tend to strongly acidify the soil.  You'll have to lime often and heavily to keep the pH in an optimum range for nutrient uptake of turf grass.  And to continue with the minimalist trend of this thread, keeping your pH in the low to mid 6's will maximize nutrient availability which will minimize the amount of fertilizer you need to use.  Nice to have you on the site!


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## littlesmokey

11 Bravo said:
			
		

> Glad I found this site...Lot's of good lively discussion. You all seem to reallly know your lime so I have a question. I usually put down a little every season. I am in the deep woods of SW Michigan, amongst a forest of nothin but red and white pines on my 3.5 acres that encircle my small lawn. I have been told that I especially need to put down lime because of all the pines. Is this accurate ?



That truly is an interesting question. I think I would parse it a little. The small lawn has a small footprint. Take into account only the twenty or thirty feet around the grass. Next do soil tests on the grass and surrounding. If your Ph is good for the grass, don't add to it, but you may need to adjustwith lime or other chems.

Unfortunately we can't blame the trees for a bad lawn. Light and water are more likely the culprits. 

So welcome to the hearth, and tell us why you are here and what you are using to burn and are you burning your native trees?


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## 11 Bravo

Lil Smokey...I am here because I had shoulder surgery 4 days ago to repair my rotator cuff and torn bicep tendon that occured at work and I am bored out of my skull and decided to start posting........I have a 2000 sq ft log home, with a "Century by Jaquzzi" (don't blame me it came with the house) wood stove. I love the idea of relying on myself for the winter heat and find this site fascinating. I am looking at investing in a real wood burning stove and doing homework. My wife is a master gardener has a 4000 sq ft flower garden with koi pond, etc, and controls it all without chemicals.     I do not burn anything from my 3.5 acres because I had always been told to never burn pine due to a fire risk, and pine is all I have. Like the info I got on lime, is this entirely accurate ?  ********in your spare time, throw out a prayer for the family of an aquaintance and neighboring co-worker killed this morning..  
www.odmp.org/officer.php?oid=18950


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## Gooserider

11 Bravo said:
			
		

> Lil Smokey...I am here because I had shoulder surgery 4 days ago to repair my rotator cuff and torn bicep tendon that occured at work and I am bored out of my skull and decided to start posting........I have a 2000 sq ft log home, with a "Century by Jaquzzi" (don't blame me it came with the house) wood stove. I love the idea of relying on myself for the winter heat and find this site fascinating. I am looking at investing in a real wood burning stove and doing homework. My wife is a master gardener has a 4000 sq ft flower garden with koi pond, etc, and controls it all without chemicals.     I do not burn anything from my 3.5 acres because I had always been told to never burn pine due to a fire risk, and pine is all I have. Like the info I got on lime, is this entirely accurate ?  ********in your spare time, throw out a prayer for the family of an aquaintance and neighboring co-worker killed this morning..
> www.odmp.org/officer.php?oid=18950



Well we probably ought to move this to a different thread, since it's getting away from DIY lawns and back into "Hearth Room" territory.  :lol:  But in short, pine and other softwoods are generally considered less than the best fuels because they tend to burn very hot and fast, but if properly treated they are neither creosote makers, nor particularly a fire hazard.  

They contain a lot of pitch and sap, which means that pine needs to be WELL SEASONED before burning - otherwise the excess moisture will cause the fire to be smokey and deposit lots of creosote in your chimney, but if properly dried (20% moisture or less) the pitch will burn quite well, indeed that is mostly what makes pine burn so hot and fast.

Because they burn hotter and faster than most woods, you need to be careful not to over-fire your stove, typically this means smaller fires than the biggest amount of wood you can shove in the firebox, which in turn leads to shorter burn times and more frequent refueling...

If you have the choice, most people prefer to burn hardwoods (Oak, Maple, Hedge, Locust, Walnut, etc) but there are plenty of folks in parts of the country that only have softwoods that heat with them just fine.

Another thing to consider is that burning a wood stove is a lot of work, especially if you process your own wood - given your shoulder problem, it might be worth thinking about pellets, and certainly you will need to make plans about how to deal with processing if you do go for cordwood.

About the stove - I am guessing, mostly because it's not a brand I recognize, that your stove is probably a pre-EPA "airtight" unit.  (If it is EPA approved, there will be a big label on the back that says both that it is approved for fire safety AND for EPA pollution standards.  This is what we often refer to as a "smoke dragon" stove, they may or may not still be safe to burn due to age, and tend to be major polluters.  A new EPA-II certified stove will get about 30% more heat out of a given quantity of wood (can either mean you get more heat or lower wood consumption depending on how you run it...) and very low amounts of pollution - some approach the emissions of a conventional oil or gas furnace.

Why don't you start a new thread in the "Hearth Room" section, telling us more about the house - floor plan, where the stove is, what the stack is like, (Inside / outside / height, size, etc) climate, particularly what the heating season looks like, what you want from a stove - pretty fires, or serious heat; how much you'd expect to burn it - occasional, evenings and weekends, or 24/7, etc...  What sort of "style" do you like in terms of appearance?  Maybe a picture of your current setup?  This will let us help you figure out what size and style of stove will fit you best...

Gooserider


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## restorer

Oh crap Goose, 

You had me convinced you were a softwood burner, then you blow it by suggesting a new thread. Fact is, cleaner, hoter, more smoke free, and in the West more readily available. Seems like a good reason for a new topic. :cheese:


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## 11 Bravo

Very well...........thanks, and I will head over there in the morning......


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## Gooserider

UncleRich said:
			
		

> Oh crap Goose,
> 
> You had me convinced you were a softwood burner, then you blow it by suggesting a new thread. Fact is, cleaner, hoter, more smoke free, and in the West more readily available. Seems like a good reason for a new topic. :cheese:



I agree time for a new topic, but here in New England, you just about can't get the wood guys to even sell you softwoods!  The last load of log-length I got was (I think) all red and white oak.  The red oak I'm sure of, the other stuff I'm not as sure about - the bark is flakier and it has leaves that are oak shaped, but instead of having sharp corners on the tips like red oak, these are all rounded.  The wood has a pink hue like red oak, but not as intense, and almost looks "striped" w/ white strands as well.  It doesn't have the same odor as red oak, otherwise it looks and splits like oak, so I'm assuming it must be some variety, probably white.  I figure it all burns, so I don't worry all that much about it.  %-P 

I like long burn times, so I tend to prefer hardwoods, but I'm not opposed to the "burn what you get" approach.

Gooserider


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## Sandor

senorFrog said:
			
		

> Sandor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously, my comment was in reference to the BS I put in the shaded quote.
> 
> BG's comment was useful, its just that some closed minded individuals like yourself don't really give a flying F about anything, but themselves.
> 
> If you don't think that there are ramifications from millions of homeowners dumping millions of tons of chemicals on their yard, to maintain a "nice appearance", then you are simply clueless. (Or you don't give a "F")
> 
> ...
> 
> Yep, mind your own business and trash the place for others that happen to give a flying F.
> 
> BTW, to use your words "I don't want to flame you, but...."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sandor, There are good alternatives to chemical fertilizer such as organics or using mulching blades.  However, the libertarian streak in me says I'll quit fertilizing my lawn when you quit selfishly clear cutting and pumping dangerous greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere just for your own personal comfort .  Nuff said?
> 
> BTW, Your prolific use of the "F" word was unnecessary and bordering on the ad-hominem.
> 
> I've maintained a pretty good record of trying to helpful for well over a year here at hearth.com.  I am slightly soured by the hypocritical attitude that some members possess.  Dogpiling on someone elses thread is just poor taste.
Click to expand...


Frogman-

1. I do not "selfishly clear cut" trees to feed my stove. Around my area, so many trees get blown over from tropical storms and Nor'esters that I get plenty of wood that would have been trucked many miles to a dumpsite. The couple of trees around the house that I cut, are for better solar exposure in preparation for solar water heat.

1.5 I do not use a log splitter, I use a maul. I use about 1 gallon of gas per year to buck enough wood to yield 3-4 cords.

2. I use a catalytic stove, which does reduce emissions.

3. I recycle the ash, to raise PH in the garden, instead of using packaged lime.

4. If I choose to use the heat pump and baseboard heat (and not use the stove), that coal fired powered plant in Norfolk will be spewing some smoke to meet my electricity demand.

5. Yep, the "F" reference was unnecessary, but YOU certainly employed ad-hominem attacks in your reply to BeGreen.

6. I've been around here awhile too. Speaking of hypocritical attitudes, why are you on a woodburning site using incomplete data to denounce woodburning as a renewable (and green) alternative to heating one's home? Go over to the anti-woodburning site, or most likely, you are from there.

7. Thats it for me on this thread. Start a new thread, PM me or whatever.


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