# data logger



## in hot water (Dec 13, 2009)

this is the data logger that comes with the solar control I showed in another post.  Plug it into a USB port and slip the SD card into it.  Now you can program the control parameters.  Then take the card to the control, plug it in and it transfer the set up data.  The control does come pre-programed with 5 or so arrangements.  You cannot build new arr. but you can change setting within them.

Then the card records the system data as it runs.  Here are a couple screen shots of the set up screen and the view screen.  When you put the cursor over any point on any line it reads the temperature and time of day.

This control also accepts input from the Grundfos flow and temperature sensors.

I know the manufacturer of this control and have been testing a few versions for them. They are looking for dealers or distributors.  I suspect street price could be under $300  depending on dealer markup.


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## Nofossil (Dec 13, 2009)

Cool. Memory has gotten cheap. I use a 2GB SD card in the NoFossil Control System. It records all inputs, outputs, and internal variables every minute for a whole year. Then it rolls over and starts overwriting the previous year's data a day at a time so that you always have the previous 365 days worth. Pretty amazing for a $10 card.


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## Gooserider (Dec 14, 2009)

Looks like a nice unit - is the software on it cross platform capable, or are customers going to have to run a [del]Microsoft[/del] defective box just to make use of it?

(I get annoyed by all the manufacturer supplied software out there that won't run right on my Linux box - I really don't like running virused malware systems)

Gooserider


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## in hot water (Dec 14, 2009)

I will find out.  It runs on my mac but I have the Parallels software.


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## jebatty (Dec 14, 2009)

Anyone with experience as to this data logger? 
Pico USB TC-08 8-Channel Thermocouple Data Logger
Pico


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## twofer (Dec 14, 2009)

jebatty said:
			
		

> Anyone with experience as to this data logger?
> Pico USB TC-08 8-Channel Thermocouple Data Logger
> Pico



Not sure how much experience you have with computers/programming but for ~$105 you could get:

1 - Arduino Board
1 - Arduino Ethernet Shield
8 - OneWire Temperature Sensors

This setup like that Pico would require a computer except if you went the Arduino route you would could just setup a PHP script to pipe the readings into a MySQL database. Another benefit of going with the Arduino is that you have 16 digital pins that would allow you the ability to control your system in the future.


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## jebatty (Dec 14, 2009)

Years ago I did quite a bit of programming, so maybe it's time to start again. Thanks for the info.


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## jebatty (Dec 15, 2009)

If I go the Arduino route, is there a shield to record data rather than using a computer, and then downloading to the computer? I'm really new at the jargon for this, but I think you get the drift: an Arduino with a data logger.


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## twofer (Dec 15, 2009)

jebatty said:
			
		

> If I go the Arduino route, is there a shield to record data rather than using a computer, and then downloading to the computer? I'm really new at the jargon for this, but I think you get the drift: an Arduino with a data logger.



They have shields with SD card interfaces on them but you're still going to need a program to view the data (i.e. write to CSV file and graph/view it with Excel).

Personally, if you have a computer in your home that is always on already then I would go the ethernet shield route. The reason being that the data is automatically logged and if you want to view it you could just fire up a web browser and have JPGraph & PHP graph the results.

Next month I'll be working on setting up my Arduino controller with an ethernet shield and the corresponding MySQL database and webserver so if you need any help I'll be more than happy to share my code and database.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Dec 15, 2009)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> Looks like a nice unit - is the software on it cross platform capable, or are customers going to have to run a [del]Mac[/del] [del]School Toy[/del] defective box just to make use of it?
> 
> 
> Gooserider



True True


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## Blevesque (Dec 15, 2009)

Twofer, I was just wondering if you were going to do a detailed write-up of your control system. It's a slick system and I love to learn more about it.


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## twofer (Dec 15, 2009)

BRL said:
			
		

> Twofer, I was just wondering if you were going to do a detailed write-up of your control system. It's a slick system and I love to learn more about it.



It's nothing fancy but here is the thread about my control system. If there's any details missing that you're interested in feel free to ask.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/44038/


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## jebatty (Dec 18, 2009)

I'm thinking of excuses in addition to boiler monitor/control to get an Arduino, etc. and learn the programming. After reviewing some sample sketches, the language structure is very similar to dBase programming I did years ago, so it shouldn't be too difficult to learn. So, what other "useful" uses to do with Arduino -- maybe a robot to split and stack boiler wood?


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## mwk1000 (Dec 18, 2009)

go to sparkfun.com and look down the list of sensors. That should give you an idea or two. 

I am also ready to hook up my arduino board. I have it working with 4 sensors and one relay on a prototype board now. I have been building out the mysql code and the graphing portion. I am using an opens ource tool called pentaho, it's way overkill for this but we develop with it for work so I am getting up to speed and making something for the house. If you strip away all the junk I would point some of the members here to the openflashchart php modules. VERY clean charts for that sexy professional look. 

I can post any of the stuff out here as well. I am using a perl script I wrote years ago to log tty data , it is in production at many companies for years , very reliable code. The arduino sends out formatted lines that are simple to parse and I have decided to update the ttylogger to convert the formatted lines to sql inset statements written to a file every 1-5 min. Very simple and requires no special modules to work, all you need is the basic perl and mysql. I'll have the script make the insert file and run it to load in the data.

It's about 3/4 baked right now. I have a sample database schema called temperature with about 5 or 6 tables. The ttylog code is done about another hour to add in the SQL statements. Pentaho is up and a VERY simple dashboard is drawing a graph against the "RAW" temperature table. I was looking to wire it in this weekend and start logging real temps.

It's a nice project I have been itching to do and I'm having fun with it !


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## jebatty (Dec 18, 2009)

You're much more advanced in programming than I am. I have a "goals" list that is designed in part to cover my aging process. Although I'm only 62, I know the time will come when scaling Mt Everest no longer will be achievable, so I have on my list re-learning programming. C++ was the language at the time I did the goals list, but when the time arrives, who knows? Maybe start now with the Arduino and get a jump start on future dementia, although my wife thinks I'm demented already.


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## twofer (Dec 18, 2009)

The last couple days have had me thinking about how it might be a worthwhile project for one of us to setup a database and webserver that could do the logging and graphing for people. This way those that are not familiar or comfortable working with PHP/MySQL could just setup the Arduino to send the sensor data there. This would also eliminate the need for everyone to maintain a local webserver, not that it is hard to do with XAMPP.

What do you guys think?

ETA: The one hurdle would be the authentication of the incoming data from the Arduino's but I think this could be overcome with a lightweight AES implementation.


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## Medman (Dec 18, 2009)

I would agree that a "readymade" setup for the code, with simple and clear instructions, would be excellent.  I am very comfortable and competent when it comes to the hardware of boards, sensors, interfaces etc. but I have not coded for years.  Any help you could provide would be worthwhile.
Some thoughts I had:

Any needed applications should be open source and free, available as a download.

Most of us can find a PC or two (I have two now) to reformat and load with just the setup needed to make this run.  What are the bare necessities for applications required? Which OS?

In my case, I would like to have the arduino controller run independently of a PC, with only the data logging and conversion functions running on the PC.


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## Medman (Dec 18, 2009)

Additionally, which make/version of Linux will be best for someone like me who is new to the OS?  I want to get at least one PC reformatted and running soon, as I have ordered the arduino board and sensors.


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## mwk1000 (Dec 18, 2009)

JeBatty: Maybe this will work:

Little boy, I have some candy for you ... A nice little arduino sketch that reads temperature sensors and turns on relays .... 



```
#include <OneWire.h>
#include <DallasTemperature.h>

// Data wire is plugged into port 2 on the Arduino
#define ONE_WIRE_BUS 2
#define TEMPERATURE_PRECISION 9

// Setup a oneWire instance to communicate with any OneWire devices (not just Maxim/Dallas temperature ICs)
OneWire oneWire(ONE_WIRE_BUS);

// Pass our oneWire reference to Dallas Temperature. 
DallasTemperature sensors(&oneWire;);

// arrays to hold device addresses
uint8_t SourceFeedSen[8], SourceReturnSen[8];
uint8_t LoadFeedSen[8], LoadReturnSen[8];
uint8_t StoreMaxSen[8], StoreMinSen[8];
uint8_t TempSen1[8], TempSen2[8];

// Try for an array of pointers to the arrays so wa can process them in for loops
uint8_t *SensorList[6];

// Save the Relay pin setup

int relay1Pin = 7;
int relay1State = LOW;
int lastrelay1State = LOW;


// Counter in Seconds
long relay1Sec = 0;

// Relay/Pump will not cycle more than once every xx seconds
long resetinterval = 180;
long collectinterval = 60000; // get temps every nn000 milliseconds

// Set up some default temperature variables

float DeltaTdropF = 5; // Buffer temp for comparisons
float FloorTempF = 120;
float SenAdj = 4;


// Setup some handy temp variables
// Farenhieght
float SourceFeedTempF, SourceReturnTempF, LastSourceFeedTempF, LastSourceReturnTempF;
float LoadFeedTempF,  LoadReturnTempF, LastLoadFeedTempF,  LastLoadReturnTempF;
float StoreMaxTempF,  StoreMinTempF, LastStoreMaxTempF,  LastStoreMinTempF;


// Set up some handy loop counters and general variables.
float ver = 2.0;
int j,k;
int sennum;

// Some format flags to control what prints
int logSourceFeed = HIGH;
int logSourceReturn = HIGH;
int logLoadFeed = HIGH;
int logLoadReturn = HIGH;
int logStoreMax = LOW;
int logStoreMin = LOW;

void setup(void)
{
  // Fill in sensor list with named var addresses
  SensorList[0] = SourceFeedSen;
  SensorList[1] = SourceReturnSen;
  SensorList[2] = LoadFeedSen;
  SensorList[3] = LoadReturnSen;
  SensorList[4] = StoreMaxSen;
  SensorList[5] = StoreMinSen;
  
  // start serial port
  Serial.begin(115200);
  Serial.println(" ");
  delay(15000);
  Serial.print("Gassification Bioler Temperature IC Control Version ");
  Serial.println(ver);
 
  // initialize the relay digital pin as an output:
  pinMode(relay1Pin, OUTPUT);     
  pinMode(ONE_WIRE_BUS, INPUT);
  // Start up the library
  sensors.begin();
  
  // locate devices on the bus
  Serial.print("Locating devices...");
  Serial.print("Found ");
  sennum = sensors.getDeviceCount();
  Serial.print(sennum, DEC);
  Serial.println(" devices.");
  delay(5000);
  // report parasite power requirements
  Serial.print("Parasite power is: "); 
  if (sensors.isParasitePowerMode()) Serial.println("ON");
  else Serial.println("OFF");
   
  // assign address manually.  
  
  SourceFeedSen = { 0x28, 0x54, 0xD6, 0x5E, 0x2, 0x0, 0x0, 0xAC };
  SourceReturnSen   = { 0x28, 0x7C, 0x2, 0x5F, 0x2, 0x0, 0x0, 0x75 };
  LoadFeedSen = { 0x28, 0xC9, 0xD6, 0x5E, 0x2, 0x0, 0x0, 0x57 };
  LoadReturnSen   = { 0x28, 0xF9, 0xCB, 0x5E, 0x2, 0x0, 0x0, 0x2A }; 
    
  // set the resolution to 9 bit
  for ( j = 0; j < sennum; j++)
  {
    sensors.setResolution(SensorList[j], 9);
  }
 
  // Make sure we are starting with relay off  
  digitalWrite(relay1Pin, LOW);    // set the Relay off
  // Initialize the state vars
  lastrelay1State = LOW; 
  relay1State = LOW;
  relay1Sec = millis()/1000; // Set the initial relay last switched time to the startup time 
}

// function to print a device address
void printAddress(uint8_t deviceAddress[])
{
  for (uint8_t i = 0; i < 8; i++)
  {
    Serial.print(deviceAddress[i], HEX);
    if (i < 7) Serial.print(" ");
  }
}

// function to print the temperature for a device
void printTemperature(uint8_t deviceAddress[])
{
  // method 2 - faster
  float tempC = sensors.getTempC(deviceAddress);
  Serial.print("Temp C: ");
  Serial.print(tempC);
  Serial.print(" Temp F: ");
  Serial.print(DallasTemperature::toFahrenheit(tempC));
}

// function to print a device's resolution
void printResolution(uint8_t deviceAddress[])
{
  Serial.print("Resolution: ");
  Serial.print(sensors.getResolution(deviceAddress));
  Serial.println();    
}

// main function to print information about a device
void printData(uint8_t deviceAddress[])
{
  Serial.print("Device Address: ");
  printAddress(deviceAddress);
  Serial.print(" ");
  printTemperature(deviceAddress);
  Serial.println();
}
```


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## mwk1000 (Dec 18, 2009)

The rest ...


```
void loop(void)
{ 
  // call sensors.requestTemperatures() to issue a global temperature 
     sensors.requestTemperatures();
 
  // print the device information
  for ( j = 0; j < sennum; j++)
  {
    printData(SensorList[j]);
  }

// Ok now actually do something to control the EKO
// Fill in my vars for easy reading
  
 SourceFeedTempF = sensors.getTempF(SourceFeedSen);
 SourceReturnTempF = sensors.getTempF(SourceReturnSen);
 
 LoadFeedTempF = sensors.getTempF(LoadFeedSen);
 LoadReturnTempF = sensors.getTempF(LoadReturnSen);
 
 StoreMaxTempF = sensors.getTempF(StoreMaxSen);
 StoreMinTempF = sensors.getTempF(StoreMinSen);

 // Save the state before the Checking starts
 lastrelay1State = relay1State;
 
// if ( (SourceFeedTempF + DeltaTdropF) > LoadFeedTempF )
if ( (SourceFeedTempF ) > LoadFeedTempF + DeltaTdropF )
 { // Turn on Tank pump flag
   relay1State = HIGH;
 } else 
 { // Turn off Tank pump flag
   relay1State = LOW;
 }
 if ( SourceReturnTempF <= FloorTempF )
 {
   relay1State = LOW;
 }
 
 // Now set the relay -- After all the logic so we only turn on/off once 
 
 if (((millis()/1000) - relay1Sec > resetinterval) && ( relay1State == HIGH ) && ( lastrelay1State != relay1State ))
 {
   Serial.print("Setting Relay pin HIGH Run Sec: ");
   Serial.println((millis()/1000)- relay1Sec,DEC);
   digitalWrite(relay1Pin, HIGH);   // set the Relay on
   relay1Sec = millis()/1000; // Using seconds to store longer interval 10-12 hour run times
 } else if (( relay1State == LOW ) && ( lastrelay1State != relay1State ))
 {
    Serial.print("Setting Relay pin LOW Run Sec: ");
    Serial.println((millis()/1000)- relay1Sec,DEC);
    digitalWrite(relay1Pin, LOW);    // set the Relay off
    relay1Sec = millis()/1000; // Using seconds to store longer interval 10-12 hour run times
 }
 
// Store the values for the next run
LastSourceFeedTempF = SourceFeedTempF; LastSourceReturnTempF = SourceReturnTempF;

LastLoadFeedTempF = LoadFeedTempF; LastLoadReturnTempF = LoadReturnTempF;

LastStoreMaxTempF = StoreMaxTempF; LastStoreMinTempF = StoreMinTempF;

if ( logSourceFeed == HIGH )
{  // create an EASY to parse line for database inserts
   Serial.print("log:SourceFeed:F:");
   Serial.println(SourceFeedTempF );
}
 // Don't loop like crazy the Temps rise and fall SLOW !
 delay(collectinterval);
  
} // End of main loop
```


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## mwk1000 (Dec 18, 2009)

Last, A picture of the test setup.
That should kick start anyone wanting to try this. The program and wiring in the picture are all working.
( My son and I did the picture to take to school ) 

Note on the code: I hacked up a lot of the code originally to get the size down to a postable size --it didn't work. If someone wants to share how to post the text files ( I was rejected ) I will gladly put up the original and the ttylog script as well. The sketch IS functional, I removed comments, duplicate sections for each sensor etc.


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## twofer (Dec 18, 2009)

Maybe we should pull this discussion into a dedicated Arduino thread.


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## DaveBP (Dec 18, 2009)

> Maybe we should pull this discussion into a dedicated Arduino thread.



Why do that? I can't be the only one to enjoy listening to conversations in languages I don't speak a word of. It's just fun imagining what you might be saying!


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## jebatty (Dec 18, 2009)

> JeBatty: Maybe this will work:



MWK -- Thanks, much -- I'm not moving too fast on anything right now except completing some doll wardrobe cabinets for two of my granddaughters. But I'm starting to get myself intrigued by something that likely will turn into lots of fun, plus soak up my winter time in the frozen north country. Thanks again.


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## pybyr (Dec 19, 2009)

Medman said:
			
		

> Additionally, which make/version of Linux will be best for someone like me who is new to the OS?  I want to get at least one PC reformatted and running soon, as I have ordered the arduino board and sensors.



I am far from a Linux guru, and do not know if the following will work for the purpose being discussed, but I've had a little experience with a version known as "Ubuntu"- which has the dual advantages of being available at no charge, and also being usable by way of a graphical user interface (click on icons, etc.) for those of us who aren't I.T. whizzes.  Google around and you can probably find more about it quickly.


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## mwk1000 (Dec 19, 2009)

I use ubuntu , It has some quirks to get the Arduino IDE running and the serial port monitor working on 64 bit but it is a good and very popular flavor of Linux. Centos is another ( The free version of RedHat ). Bear in mind that at the core they are all pretty much the same based on the kernel you are using. The look , feel, software packaging, desktop , are all varied by the different distributions ( distro's ).

I have gotten it all working properly for Ubuntu 8.10/9.04/9.10 so I can share the tricks needed. 

If you are using an older PC with 32 bit then I think there are no problems.


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## Medman (Dec 19, 2009)

I will be running 32 bit.  Thanks for the recomendation, I was looking at Ubuntu and Red Hat.  I probably will wait until after Christmas to get this going, but one of the challenges I face is that I have no high speed connection at home.  I have to download everything at work, then install at home later.  If I need a patch or other software It has to wait until the next day.


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## mwk1000 (Dec 19, 2009)

Sounds like fun - NOT. My advice, Linux patches and the software distribution manager tools are a blessing and a curse. I have been doing this for 20 years professionally. Once you get to a place where it is working resist the temptation to "update to the latest". Each update will break as much as it fixes, NOTHING can waste your time like a computer! 

That said .. I need to do something that does not involve a keyboard right now ...


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## EricV (Dec 19, 2009)

twofer said:
			
		

> jebatty said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Which board is this?  I see several examples they have.


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## twitch (Dec 19, 2009)

Most of us here that use the Arduino are using the USB Arduino board.  It makes programming easier because you can connect it directly to your computer without needing additional components.  I suggest http://www.sparkfun.com as a good site for Arduino boards and other components that will work with it.  They are having a FREE day on January 7th that you can get $100 worth of free stuff.  I think it starts at 9:00AM and they are limiting the total that they give away so start early, and no I have no affiliation with them, just like their selection and customer service.


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## twofer (Dec 19, 2009)

EricV said:
			
		

> Which board is this?  I see several examples they have.



I would recommend the USB board for ease of use.

http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=666


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## EricV (Dec 19, 2009)

Awesome, just ordered one and a couple one wire temp sensors to start playing with.

Thanks for sharing the code.


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## mwk1000 (Dec 21, 2009)

I will have to spend a moment to see how to attach non-photo's if you can. My thought was to post the sketch, the ttylogger script that reads the serial port , timestamps and stores the data. The graphing, database whatever can happen later. For anyone wanting a working model this would make up the basics. It's always easier to edit and I was pretty impressed with what can be done for less than a hundred dollars.

I used the same board about 30$ and opted to locate it close to a computer in a wire closet. I used RJ-45 CAT 5 network wiring to run out to the sensors and the relay since I had it all in the walls and it is a cheap way to get there without actually adding the Ethernet module. ( I just use the wires -- one pair for temp sensors another pair for relay ... ) Cheap easy to get RJ45 at the hardware store.

I also thought this was a handy kick start since it will run directly from the arduino http://powerswitchtail.com/default.aspx. A very fast and easy way to get the pump working nice little red LED on it.

I have 6 temp sensors, one arduino, one powers switch tail. I'll mount the microcontroller in the wire closet and maybe use it for more things - home control related. I have an old RJ45 wall mount box to put the arduino in and I will have the power, USB , and a RJ-45 jack (Maybe two ) coming out of it. Into the patch panel -> out by the tank and furnace -> sensors and relay are a strange octopus wired to an RJ-45 plug. That's the plan anyway. Works great for me because I have a Linux PC in my wire closet as my Internet gateway/Firewall rack mounted. USB will plug right to it.


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## EricV (Dec 21, 2009)

mwk1000 said:
			
		

> Last, A picture of the test setup.
> That should kick start anyone wanting to try this. The program and wiring in the picture are all working.
> ( My son and I did the picture to take to school )
> 
> Note on the code: I hacked up a lot of the code originally to get the size down to a postable size --it didn't work. If someone wants to share how to post the text files ( I was rejected ) I will gladly put up the original and the ttylog script as well. The sketch IS functional, I removed comments, duplicate sections for each sensor etc.



If you want to send me the files I have a ton  of extra web space on my server and would be happy to put up a page for sharing this stuff.

Eric


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## Gooserider (Dec 22, 2009)

Far as I know, Craig currently has the board set up so that the only file formats that will upload into the forum area are picture formats, however it is possible to post reasonable amounts of code using the "Code" tags in a message...  I haven't experimented to find out just what he has the Wiki set up to allow, but I think you may be able to post more different formats in that...

Gooserider


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## semlin (Dec 22, 2009)

for those of us who have no experience with this, is there a cost effective "plug and play" option for datalogging a system?


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## sgschwend (Dec 22, 2009)

If you are asking if there is a multi channel temperature data logger.  You may like this product.  Eight temperatures, 3 relays, LAN (connect it to your local network), uses a web browser to setup and review the data from your easy chair, office, or anywhere you have web/network access.  The cost including 8 probes would be about $300.

http://www.controlbyweb.com/x300/software.html


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## semlin (Dec 22, 2009)

sgschwend said:
			
		

> If you are asking if there is a multi channel temperature data logger.  You may like this product.  Eight temperatures, 3 relays, LAN (connect it to your local network), uses a web browser to setup and review the data from your easy chair, office, or anywhere you have web/network access.  The cost including 8 probes would be about $300.
> 
> http://www.controlbyweb.com/x300/software.html



thanks.  ideally i was hoping for something simpler and cheaper, just to log temperature inputs and boiler/pump operating time to learn exactly how the house works this winter to get a real handle on my consumption needs.  if i was going to buy a controller unit i think i would want something with more than three relays


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## Gooserider (Dec 22, 2009)

No personal experience, but someone posted a link to this site, WEL Energy logger a while back, which probably isn't any cheaper, except perhaps on a cost / sensor basis - but offers a pretty good pre-fab web-based logging setup.  Uses the "Dallas One-Wire" sensors, so in theory you can have even more sensors than the 10 that it comes with, for about $5 / each additional.  Doesn't seem to offer any control capability though, just monitoring.

I like the concept of the DOW sensors, in that one can pack a lot of data onto a very few terminals, as opposed to the discrete sensor type units...

Another option that is more "roll your own" but seems to offer more potential options for having control outputs is the stuff from Hobby Boards who have a bunch of different kits for various DOW using input and output devices.  Prices looked pretty good, and they also had a nice "how-to" section for how to hook up the sensors and so on...

Haven't used any of these myself, just mentioning links that other folks have pointed at in past threads.

Gooserider


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## mwk1000 (Dec 22, 2009)

> Far as I know, Craig currently has the board set up so that the only file formats that will upload into the forum area are picture formats, however it is possible to post reasonable amounts of code using the “Code” tags in a message…  I haven’t experimented to find out just what he has the Wiki set up to allow, but I think you may be able to post more different formats in that…



Yes I tried the code tags with the sketch. The 6500 character limit will get in the way. As it should ! - not sure people actually want to scroll through code on the forum. 

The wiki however, looks fine. It will take a TXT file and that should work. I would prefer to keep it there close to this forum as it were. It's likely to be available if this forum is so someone reading a message can find it , maybe even a year from now. I'll put the stuff up there over the next couple days, maybe make a DIY Boiler control page where we can all put whatever ...

Thanks for the offer Eric, I was looking up your email but I think the wiki is worth a shot.


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## Gooserider (Dec 22, 2009)

mwk1000 said:
			
		

> > Far as I know, Craig currently has the board set up so that the only file formats that will upload into the forum area are picture formats, however it is possible to post reasonable amounts of code using the “Code” tags in a message…  I haven’t experimented to find out just what he has the Wiki set up to allow, but I think you may be able to post more different formats in that…
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Gooserider =/= Eric, but you're welcome anyway...  One thing that might be helpful is to toss a link from any forum posts where you discuss the code to any relevant wiki article, makes stuff a little easier to find...

Gooserider


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## sgschwend (Dec 22, 2009)

Yes the Control by Web devices use the one wire probe.  The unit I posted is one of several that they have, they are made to cascade together, to increase capability.  The Data logger is just over $200 bucks.  I ordered the probes from another source for $3.40 each (however these have no cable added, so to be fair it might be worth the five bucks to some to obtain a ready to use part).

The X300 can also send email, act as a thermostat and interpret Basic.    Other models that just log temperature run in the $130 range.

At some point you either stick with what you have, invest your time to invent something new, or purchase another solution.  How many folks have a computer sitting around, or a wireless router?  Adding one or both of these would make a very powerful system.


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## twitch (Dec 22, 2009)

mwk1000,
     I just started an Arduino Controller page on the wiki at the url below.  I only put a basic description and a few links to common components.  Please feel free to add what you want there.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/Arduino_Controller/


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## pybyr (Dec 22, 2009)

As someone who's still in need of devising and constructing my control scheme (right now, using "wire nut logic"), what's the reasonably expected reliability of the Ardiuno-based systems?  

I've worked with electronics quite a lot over the years, and have found things built to commercial or mil-spec standards to be fantastically reliable (I've got WWII communication equipment that still functions flawlessly), but on the other hand, things built to consumer or hobby standards (where parts are run at the ragged edge of their voltage and current ratings, or parts are spec'd with no regard to MTBF), not so much so...


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## sgschwend (Dec 22, 2009)

Pyro, you have hit on the number one area that we focused to improve reliability, that is knowing how to reduce the ratings of each component we used.  It was a big effort, but it really matters.  Heck that effort was so intense that the number of engineers working on it was equal to the number supporting the manufacturing.  I don't want to say the company name because frankly I am un-happy with the way they dumped all those great manufacturing jobs and moved everything to Malaysia.


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## twitch (Dec 22, 2009)

pybyr said:
			
		

> As someone who's still in need of devising and constructing my control scheme (right now, using "wire nut logic"), what's the reasonably expected reliability of the Ardiuno-based systems?
> 
> I've worked with electronics quite a lot over the years, and have found things built to commercial or mil-spec standards to be fantastically reliable (I've got WWII communication equipment that still functions flawlessly), but on the other hand, things built to consumer or hobby standards (where parts are run at the ragged edge of their voltage and current ratings, or parts are spec'd with no regard to MTBF), not so much so...



This is one of my concerns as well, what happens if I'm at work and the controller craps out.  I decided to keep my aquastats in place but change the settings so they would only activate if the controller stopped working.  My system would run hotter, but would still allow the pump and air handler to run.


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## twofer (Dec 22, 2009)

pybyr said:
			
		

> As someone who's still in need of devising and constructing my control scheme (right now, using "wire nut logic"), what's the reasonably expected reliability of the Ardiuno-based systems?
> 
> I've worked with electronics quite a lot over the years, and have found things built to commercial or mil-spec standards to be fantastically reliable (I've got WWII communication equipment that still functions flawlessly), but on the other hand, things built to consumer or hobby standards (where parts are run at the ragged edge of their voltage and current ratings, or parts are spec'd with no regard to MTBF), not so much so...



Not sure of that myself. Because of that the one part of my system I was worried about was the SSR on the boiler circulator but I've since swapped that out for one that operates in the normally closed position. This way if the Arduino craps out then the circulator will still be controlled by the EKO controller.


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## Gooserider (Dec 23, 2009)

twitch said:
			
		

> pybyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sounds like a good approach - and this is one of the key concepts that needs to be kept in mind with any control strategy - there is a need for "failsafe" design to as great a degree as possible, and making sure that the "failsafes" can fail safely...

In addition to having some redundant mechanical backups, another thing that I would want to do if making an electronic setup is include some "failure monitoring"  such that temps that are out of their expected ranges will make the logging system sound an alarm - possibly even sending you a message on your cell, or equivalent...

Gooserider


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## mwk1000 (Dec 23, 2009)

Funny, I'm doing close to the same. In my situation it is not controlling anything critical. I also want to see it prove it's reliability. Locating it in the wiring closet for me also means that it is under a good power conditioned UPS. I had intended it to be a home made differential set point controller ( and data logger ) to stop my storage tank from giving back the heat once it is "full". The boiler to HX and the circulator for the furnaces are not actually going to be changing. Worst case is like operating without a tank, But I am leaving the aquastat right where it is, just in case. 

Time will tell , this board is pretty popular, and I don't see any bleeding edge configurations in the board itself to contribute to the Fear Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD). The concern I would have in any reports is that a large portion of the reliability of the "systems" will be in the hands of the DIYer and the components they choose, like choosing poor power or driving components off the board that really need a separate power source.


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## mwk1000 (Dec 23, 2009)

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/File:ttymon_v1.tgz/

I have managed to post the tty monitoring utilities - only gzip tar files seem to work. Not txt not plain tar. Arduino sketch is in the tar file as well. That will make something you can download and save for later if you ever want to play with the arduino board and Dallas one wire sensors.


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## twitch (Dec 23, 2009)

mwk1000 said:
			
		

> https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/File:ttymon_v1.tgz/
> 
> I have managed to post the tty monitoring utilities - only gzip tar files seem to work. Not txt not plain tar. Arduino sketch is in the tar file as well. That will make something you can download and save for later if you ever want to play with the arduino board and Dallas one wire sensors.



I'm going to put a link to your file on the wiki page I started under Category:Controls -> Arduio Controller if you don't mind.


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## mwk1000 (Dec 23, 2009)

I knew I forgot something ! Thanks


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## semlin (Dec 23, 2009)

sgschwend said:
			
		

> If you are asking if there is a multi channel temperature data logger.  You may like this product.  Eight temperatures, 3 relays, LAN (connect it to your local network), uses a web browser to setup and review the data from your easy chair, office, or anywhere you have web/network access.  The cost including 8 probes would be about $300.
> 
> http://www.controlbyweb.com/x300/software.html



i read through the manual on this last night and i have reconsidered.  it appears that unitt will do everything i need except grab and graph the data on the pc.  have people done that with an excel macro, or do i need to buy some kind of software (i see the site offers a link to a web based software option where you pay annually for it to log the data, but i would rather have the data in excel to play with)?


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## mwk1000 (Dec 23, 2009)

> i read through the manual on this last night and i have reconsidered.  it appears that unitt will do everything i need except grab and graph the data on the pc.  have people done that with an excel macro, or do i need to buy some kind of software (i see the site offers a link to a web based software option where you pay annually for it to log the data, but i would rather have the data in excel to play with)?



This little gadget supports SNMP, meaning that there are a stunning number of graphing programs available. Type "snmp graphing" in Google and stand back. I use one called MRTG quite a bit for network data but it's really all the same.

The temperature sensors are clearly readable as OID's in the MIB. ( That means Objects that can be polled in the Management Information Base = Stuff to Graph ) Here is the SNMP definitions right from there site:


```
-- Entries for X300
tempOne OBJECT-TYPE
  SYNTAX  DisplayString
  ACCESS  read-only
  STATUS  mandatory
  DESCRIPTION
          "The temperature reading from sensor 1."
  ::= {X300 1}
  
tempTwo OBJECT-TYPE
  SYNTAX  DisplayString
  ACCESS  read-only
  STATUS  mandatory
  DESCRIPTION
          "The temperature reading from sensor 2."
  ::= {X300 2}
  
tempThree OBJECT-TYPE
  SYNTAX  DisplayString
  ACCESS  read-only
  STATUS  mandatory
  DESCRIPTION
          "The temperature reading from sensor 3."
  ::= {X300 3}
  
tempFour OBJECT-TYPE
  SYNTAX  DisplayString
  ACCESS  read-only
  STATUS  mandatory
  DESCRIPTION
          "The temperature reading from sensor 4."
  ::= {X300 4}
```


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## jebatty (Dec 27, 2009)

With the Arduino or otherwise, a PC is needed to log, display, chart, communicate data. Is there a PC board with ports to do the same? and programming to make it work? or a packaged system at a fair cost to do the same? Does the wheel have to be reinvented (except for the learning experience)?


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## twofer (Dec 27, 2009)

jebatty said:
			
		

> With the Arduino or otherwise, a PC is needed to log, display, chart, communicate data. Is there a PC board with ports to do the same? and programming to make it work? or a packaged system at a fair cost to do the same? Does the wheel have to be reinvented (except for the learning experience)?



It might be possible to have a central webserver for everyone to have their Arduino send their data to, via the ethernet shield. Then you could log in and view the data from your system without having to know any database or server side scripting (PHP). The one requirement would be that you would need an always on internet connection.

The biggest hurdle would be setting up authentication for the data coming from the Arduino since it doesn't support SSL.


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## Hunderliggur (Dec 27, 2009)

For data logging of boiler operation, I don't think you need to worry about SSL.  The worse case if someone hacks in is that data logged is invalid.  The data coming in should be validated/filtered/processed before insertion to the DB so there is no possibility of SQL injection hacks.  I like the idea of an Arduino web service, it would simplify logging for a lot of people, myself included.  Remember, the cobbler's son has no shoes! I do secure software applications for a living but don't have a lot of free time to build my own logging environment.


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## twitch (Dec 27, 2009)

jebatty said:
			
		

> With the Arduino or otherwise, a PC is needed to log, display, chart, communicate data. Is there a PC board with ports to do the same? and programming to make it work? or a packaged system at a fair cost to do the same? Does the wheel have to be reinvented (except for the learning experience)?



nofossil's system has these features.  I don't know all the specifics of his board, but I think it is basically a linux PC and has a web server and the datalogging without having to be attached to a separate computer.  He has a lot of info about his controller on his web site.


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## sgschwend (Dec 27, 2009)

The Control by Web data logger/thermostate/basic interpreter/emailer does not need to be connected to a computer.  I think it would work best just connecting to the LAN.  One way to do that is just to plug it into the router.  

I have just received a XL300 and will try and make up the sensors today.  I did play with it yesterday.  The 89 page owner's manual is downloaded from the same link; it is loaded with application methods.  I switched it from thermostat mode to data logger mode.  Installed one sensor and set the log time to one minute.  From my laptop I could call the device using my web browser.  It does have security so you system will not be messed with (I noticed someone was concerned about that).  The screen shot pages on the web page shows what you would find.  The one I plan on using the most is the simple display showing the sensor values and relay states, (the sensors can be renamed by the user).

The data is battery protected, any data structure change will reset the database.  The data is passed out in a text file, looks like the classic spread sheet formate of separated by semi-colons.  It should be a snap to import and graph the data.  I would expect you could have the spread sheet scrip import the data and setup the graphs.


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## Gooserider (Dec 27, 2009)

The "WEL" data logger that I put up a link to a few posts back does offer that central database server logging service that people were wondering about - not sure what cost is for it (if any)

Gooserider


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## Nofossil (Dec 27, 2009)

twitch said:
			
		

> jebatty said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There are a few tradeoffs. Standard PCs have tons of computing horsepower and are pretty cheap, but very limited in their I/O capabilities. They also consume a lot of power and depend on cooling fans and other moving parts so long-term reliability is affected. They are pretty easy to program and have a nice built-in user interface.

For my system, I wanted very low power consumption - the NFCS is under 5 watts. I also wanted standalone operation (including datalogging) and very high reliability. The consequence is that I'm using more specialized and therefore more expensive boards. The system runs a stripped-down Debian Linux with Apache web server, telnet, ftp and a bunch of other useful goodies.

By default, I log all inputs, outputs, and internal states to an SD card every minute. The system stores a full year of logged data onboard. This is a good option since you don't lose data even if your network goes down. I also support logging to a remote SQL server - that's what I do to get my live graphs.

The challenge of using a small system like this is that the programming can be difficult and require fairly specialized skills. My approach was to develop a web-based interface for defining rules so that you don't have to deal with programming languages, cross-compilers, and downloading programs. It still takes some skull sweat, but you don't have to be a programmer. For those who haven't seen it, here are a couple of screen shots. A network connection is required to define or alter rules or to monitor the system, but it's not required for the system to operate. These screen shots show a few of the tabs. 

The Physical I/O tab allows you to select which inputs and outputs you're going to use. You can select the type of sensor that's plugged in to each input and provide individual sensor calibration data.

The Logs tab has clickable links for each day (in MMDD format). Clicking the link downloads that day's data into a spreadsheet on your PC.

The Rules tabs lets you display, edit, and create rules. The rules here are a simple sample application that uses a switch and LEDs on the front panel. My hope is that the rule syntax is self-explanatory.


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## sgschwend (Dec 30, 2009)

Here is the result from the first 24 hour or so of data logging with the 8 channel Control by Web data logger.  The chart clock is off because I didn't set it correctly.

The chart shows the sensor measured temperatures of three storage tank locations, top, middle and bottom.  The first part of the chart shows the heat moving from storage to the house and then the last 25% of the chart shows the heat entering from the boiler. 

The chart was made with using Excel.  Excel is capable of a directly importing the data logger's data; and also recording a scripts so that a macro can be saved. A one button chart solution would result.   

I will setup the remaining sensors in a day or two.


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## mwk1000 (Dec 31, 2009)

> I’m going to put a link to your file on the wiki page I started under Category:Controls -> Arduio Controller if you don’t mind.



I finally got the controller wired up and operating on my tank. I added some samples and the updated programs in the wiki :

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/TankControl_Information/

So far so good, some Linux bugs stopped the show for a bit. I used RJ45 Jacks and wiring to get from the PC to th tank. I made a funny octopus cable with the sensors and the relay all ending in an RJ-45 plug. The same at the arduino with all the connections going into an RJ-45 Plug.

Just having the data is very enlightening. I can see that I though I understood how the tank was charging but I was off in understanding.


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## sgschwend (Jan 2, 2010)

Data is power, congratulations!

I just replaced my second boiler sensor (one wire temp), don't know why but they both lasted one day.   The other three sensors are still chugging away.


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## mwk1000 (Jan 2, 2010)

Yes, I really had no idea how much heat I was loosing in my line set. I assumed a couple of degrees over the 75' run but in actuality it is 10 or 11. That explains why I have never been able to get the tank over 177. The boiler usually chugs at 185 ish during the peak of the heating but that means that the HX is only getting 175 so it is no surprise to see that the tank will have a hard time. I will now turn some attention to redoing my lines with better insulation. I thought it was pretty good but the temps say different.


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## sgschwend (Jan 2, 2010)

My data has shown that I use the about 1/2 of the storage heat in 12 hours time.  The bottom half of the tank is down in the 125F range, which would still be good hot water but it does seem like a good temperature for recharge.  

I have also found that there still is a lot of heat transferred after the fuel is gone.  I have program my automatic shutdown set point temp. to a level that will take advantage of that.  

Another interesting effect is the heat moves to storage in steps; where the entire tank reaches the new level before the top begins to see the next step.  Such as 125F to 145F, 145F to 165F, 165F-175F. 
(the top of tank receives the hot water first, then the middle and then finally the bottom)


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## Hansson (Jan 2, 2010)

here is my data.
http://web.telia.com/~u88408780/


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## sgschwend (Jan 3, 2010)

Beautiful data, better than watching TV.

I see the same top, middle, bottom profiles.  

Which one is the boiler?  Panna?


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## Hansson (Jan 3, 2010)

yes panna is the boiler.
If you are runing One wire check out this program
http://www.msure.se/forum/

Here is the logger I use
http://translate.google.se/translat...otf=1&u=http://www.logger2020.se/&sl=sv&tl=en


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## jebatty (Jan 3, 2010)

Is this a flexible, low cost possibility for data logging and control: USB-1208LS? 

It appears to be programmable with Borland C++, if I'm reading things right. When costing out the Arduino from scratch, plus parts, soldering iron, etc., the cost starts to rise. Is the learning curve on the software much different than learning C++?


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## sgschwend (Jan 3, 2010)

Check out the pictures on this link, I think this is the one Hannson  listed but his was to the forum main page, which is handy too:

http://www.msure.se/forum/index.php/topic,273.0.html

It even shows the data on a picture frame


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## mwk1000 (Jan 3, 2010)

> It appears to be programmable with Borland C++, if I’m reading things right. When costing out the Arduino from scratch, plus parts, soldering iron, etc., the cost starts to rise. Is the learning curve on the software much different than learning C++?



Is Borland C++ much diffrent than C++ ? No - it is basically the same, The language implementation IS the same but the IDE's differ if you are asking about Microsoft Visual c++ vs borland. (Integrated Development Environments =IDE ). I looked at the page you showed and t looked much more like a Visual Basic .NET component based product. I did not see c++ in the supplied software. There is a softWire product that will allow graphical building blocks that you connect together. The next generation of programming these days that does not really require the knowledge of a Language. Most of what is provided requires .NET component base to work. Nothing wrong with that but it is not c/c++ more like c.# (C Sharp )

In any case it looks like a vehicle to gather sensor data and drive relays. I'm not sure I see as clean a path to making it happen as I did with the arduino and I see no linux so that would be a negative for me. Linux and all the needed software parts are free.


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## Gooserider (Jan 3, 2010)

I absolutely agree - GNU/Linux and FOSS tools are a must for me for multiple reasons - one of the big ones is reliability - (Magic Question - would you fly in an airplane run by Microsoft software :gulp: ) OTOH, there are GNU/Linux distros that are specifically made for "High Reliability" applications - and even the standard distros are pretty good...  I have NEVER had to reboot my system during normal uses, though I do occasionally need to restart some of my applications...  The only time I have to power down is for hardware stuff, either upgrades or to blow the dust out of the CPU cooler and power supply every few months...

The other nice thing is the hardware support - Microsoft regularly abandons hardware (especially the "Win*" type products) and stops supporting it's drivers.  Linux has the firm policy that they won't drop support for hardware with known users, once the driver has gotten into the kernel mainline.  I've seen claims that there are drivers for devices which only have 3-5 known users, but are actively maintained...  I know that if I get something running under Linux, it won't stop working just because the manufacturer decides to stop producing drivers, or otherwise makes the hardware "obsolete"...

Gooserider


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## Nofossil (Jan 3, 2010)

Being an ex-aerospace engineer, I'm very sensitive to reliability and the possible consequences of failure. That's part of the reason that I chose the Technologics boards as tha basis of my system. Rock solid industrial-grade engineering and a bulletproof Linux implementation. No moving parts, zero hardware or software failures in all my time with them. In all fairness, I have had a couple of boards that were DOA, but if they work they seem to work forever. Hopefully I've designed software that's equally robust. I also spend a lot of time thinking about how to implement systems such that any likely failure does not result in loss of heat.


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## jebatty (Jan 6, 2010)

I've probably spent more time trying to find an "easy" monitor, log and control system than I would have spent, had I bought an Arduino and learned from scratch. That said, here is something that again looks quite interesting. Note the last three items on this page, especially the last one, which gives control over 4 relays. Here is another link to more info, with more links to more info. I don't like messing up the mix to much, but price and opportunity for the "average joe" to achieve quite a lot by taking this route looks reasonable.


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## sgschwend (Jan 6, 2010)

I did not see a relay power spec.  It is nice if they can handle 8-16amps, otherwise you might need another relay to switch the higher currents.  

At first I didn't think it had a data log file, but it does.  It outputs the data every 24hrs, I guess if your monitor is not there the log data is overwritten.  It does mention "your software" does that mean low level machine control or object orientated code?  Looks like a good place to start (are you OK with the system requirements?  They look a little thin).

I think you can control pretty well with two channels of temperature that would leave you two other for storage data.  I did find that the Control by Web data logger only provides 8 channels when in logging mode, if it is placed in control mode it only has two temperature channels as control channels.


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## Hunderliggur (Jan 6, 2010)

If they just made those nifty kits with a Web and Ethernet interface I would be all set.  In the meantime, I'll keep saving pennies for the Controlbyweb W-300.  I need at least one 8 channel in the house (tank top/middle/bottom x 2; heat exchange in/out = 8), one 4 -channel fo the boiler (boiler temp, flue temp, in temp, out temp = 4), and maybe another 8 with relays to monitor the house (3 zones, outside air temp, freezers - why not).


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## jebatty (Jan 6, 2010)

I"ll add more later as to success/issues/failure, but I decided to buy a ready-made 4-channel data logger using the Dallas one-wire sensors for $30 (two sensors included). It's on order and will arrive in a few days. For monitoring purposes, I also bought ready-made digital thermometer panel meters which also use the Dallas one-wire. I bought 4 of these, each with a two sensor input (monitor 8 sensors), and switchable to show either channel or automatically alternate back and over between channels. Each meter is $18. I got the DOW version (DOW sensors included) thinking that in the future I also could use these with a to be determined computer system, including hopefully the data logger. Serial display chips alone run about $15, so this looked to be a good deal, if the thermometers perform well. Lastly, for $20 I bought a ready-made digital thermometer panel meter which uses a K-type thermocouple to monitor stack temp. All the thermometers run on 12vdc. The data logger draws power from the serial port. I intend to use a USB to RS232 adaptor, if it works, and then have the possibility of running more than one data logger via the USB port on my computer, if that works. It might be pie in the sky, hopefully not, but for $125 will have a 4-channel data logger, equivalent of 9 digital panel meters, and a USB/serial converter. Maybe I'll end up with light weight boat anchors.


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## EricV (Jan 6, 2010)

Where did you find these

ready-made 4-channel data logger using the Dallas one-wire sensors

Thanks
Eric


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## jebatty (Jan 6, 2010)

To find the ready-made data logger, look a few posts above or here. Good luck.


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## jebatty (Jan 6, 2010)

To find the ready-made data logger, look a my post a couple of posts above.


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## mwk1000 (Jan 9, 2010)

I took some time this week to go from the logged data to some charts on a home made web page. I must say I am very impressed with how far the open source space has come in presenting the graphs!. This was about 2 4 hour sessions to work out the kinks and go from data in a database to the pictures.

It's all queried live from a mysql db using the OpenFlashCharts modules I mentioned before. The navigation and charts are quite good looking and have live tool tips with the sample details. It makes for a nice looking page, each sensor line "expands" to show a chart. They are resizable and you are supposed to be able to right mouse and save as an image. ( Haven't worked that out yet.

I wish I had I site that was easy to hit but my home is connected via a cellular. I will wrap it all up together and repost it on the wiki so a complete "kit" is out there from controller -> logger -> database -> web Pages. 

Cheers


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## mwk1000 (Jan 9, 2010)

I took some time this week to go from the logged data to some charts on a home made web page. I must say I am very impressed with how far the open source space has come in presenting the graphs!. This was about (2) 3 hour sessions to work out the kinks and go from data in a database to the pictures.

It's all queried live from a mysql db using the OpenFlashCharts modules I mentioned before. The navigation and charts are quite good looking and have live tool tips with the sample details. It makes for a nice looking page, each sensor line "expands" to show a chart. They are resizable and you are supposed to be able to right mouse and save as an image. ( Haven't worked that out yet.)

I wish I had I site that was easy to hit but my home is connected via a cellular. I will wrap it all up together and repost it on the wiki so a complete "kit" is out there from controller -> logger -> database -> web Pages. 

Cheers

Updated : https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/TankControl_Information/

It's all out there to download if you like.


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## sgschwend (Jan 10, 2010)

Wow, it's Christmas all over again.  

Looks like I could use that module too, must take a closer look at it.  Isn't that the way it is, so many cool things if you can only find them.


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## deerhntr (Jan 10, 2010)

mwk1000 said:
			
		

> I took some time this week to go from the logged data to some charts on a home made web page. I must say I am very impressed with how far the open source space has come in presenting the graphs!. This was about (2) 3 hour sessions to work out the kinks and go from data in a database to the pictures.
> 
> It's all queried live from a mysql db using the OpenFlashCharts modules I mentioned before. The navigation and charts are quite good looking and have live tool tips with the sample details. It makes for a nice looking page, each sensor line "expands" to show a chart. They are resizable and you are supposed to be able to right mouse and save as an image. ( Haven't worked that out yet.)
> 
> ...



Impressive!

I have been lurking on the thread for a bit, but you guys have got me going. I tried to take advantage of Sparkfun's free day last week to get an arduino board for free, but to no avail. So I just ordered the board, and some dallas one-wire temp sensors after the "Free Day" was over. Now you've got me resurrecting an old 266Mhz PII PC to run linux for the data logger project. I found the DSL(damn small linux) distro, and that old PC booted right up on it.  This is great stuff when it is cold out, and there is nothing better to do than fiddle with projects, and stoke the boiler. Oh yea, I should be cutting some firewood for next year. In do time!

Great Thread, and thanks for the wiki stuff. Hopefully I will be able to add a little when I'm up and running.


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## mwk1000 (Jan 10, 2010)

Have at it. I have not been this interested in the Charting for a while. It's fun to play again. There are a bunch of data files in that download that you can use to load up the database with some data and have a try at setting up the web while you are working on the controller. I had to wait to get the data , it's a pain to try and design with an empty data or even made up data.

See the readme in the tar file for a quick start. You can load up all of my data as a sample. like this:

cd /<whereever you are starting>/ctl/ttymon/log
for FILE in $(ls *.sql)
do
  mysql -uoccam -p1qaz2wsx temperature< $FILE
done

That will dump them all in the database and you can play and change quicker.

Just run the command that creates the database again when you are ready for the real stuff. It clears all the tables and starts again.

Mark

I am off on the hunt for how to hook up my Taylor 9940 digital sensors to get the tank top and bottom readings into the mix. There was supposed to be a way to read them but I lost the doc. I was wondering if they use the same sensors but I'm not  quite ready to clip the line and find out.

Meanwhile I'll spend some time and try and make the pretty graphs contain some more meaningful data!


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## jebatty (Jan 22, 2010)

> I decided to buy a ready-made 4-channel data logger using the Dallas one-wire sensors for $30 (two sensors included).



Logger arrived and works perfectly. This is ultra-simple: plug into the Com port, use HyperTerminal to set comm parameters, starts log on call, ends on disconnect, capture text to file. Logs all four sensors about every second. At least gets me started to move in a more sophisticated direction.

Here's a sample of the output with two sensors attached. I put one sensor in a glass of cold water.

1 70.5 F
2 --
3 72.1 F
4 --
1 68.1 F
2 --
3 72.1 F
4 --
1 65.8 F
2 --
3 72.1 F
4 --
1 64.0 F
2 --
3 72.1 F
4 --
1 62.4 F
2 --
3 72.1 F
4 --
1 60.9 F
2 --
3 72.1 F
4 --
1 59.5 F
2 --
3 72.1 F
4 --
1 58.4 F
2 --
3 72.1 F
4 --
1 57.3 F
2 --
3 72.1 F
4 --


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## mwk1000 (Jan 22, 2010)

That works! And the price is right. You can use the ttymon script I posted as an example of how to :

Automatically open the com port and collect the data to a file name that is date and time stamped.
Date and time stamp the measurements
Roll the data every X min/hours/days into a new file
Create database insert statements from the raw text.
Run the database inserts on every log file turnover.

..... 

You will have to address the differences from windows to unix but it is usable on either platform. COM1: in Windows is /dev/ttyABC in unix. Or just use it to get an Idea of what needs to happen and roll your own. I use a crossover product called CYGWIN on windows to create a unix like environment and run unix oriented apps on a windows system. More open source stuff but a nice way to have both environments available at the same time. I'm not sure how it presents serial ports, never had to do it.


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## jebatty (Jan 24, 2010)

Some, maybe most, of you are way ahead of me on this, but fwiw, here is what I did today. I located an inexpensive graphing program (shareware about $14.00) that will graph multiple temperature inputs. I held my breath, as it is from a Russian programmer (shouldn't have a bias, but too much press about computer hackers in Russia, probably no more though than are in the US). It installed and runs without issue. It downloaded from Digital River, which itself is reputable. Check GRAPHING out, if you wish. It really is pretty slick and usable for graphing many types of data.

I should learn an updated programming language; instead I went back to DBIII (DOS) and did a quick program to read in the data file like that shown a couple of posts above. The data logger produced 11,322 lines of data for the four sensors in one hour, or 2,825 reading for each of the four sensors,or about 47 readings for each sensor per minute. The DBIII program I did reduces that to one reading for each sensor for each 5 minutes, and then outputs a csv file which the graphing program reads to produce a graph of all four sensor readings.

I don't think the very basic 4 channel data logger is the best way to go, but for me it was the way to start to get my head around some of this stuff again. Can't believe that my last programming was done in the early 1980's. Showing my age. Real-time, ethernet, web-based, with time stamping, ability to set time between data log reads, all would be much better. But I guess what should one expect fo $30 bucks?


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## Gooserider (Jan 24, 2010)

There are a lot of good hackers in Russia, they are doing some really high quality coding there, nothing wrong with the stuff they produce...  There are also a lot of CRACKERS living in Russia, and unfortunately the Russian legal system does not make it easy to prosecute them - of course if it wasn't for the poor quality products of a certain US software company, the crackers and script kiddies would have a lot harder time of it...

That said, $14.00 for a graphing program seems exorbitant...  In the Linux world, the toughest problem is often deciding WHICH free / open source language / database / office suite / program one wants to use...  I just looked at the Gentoo Packages site, and they had 97 packages listed under /dev/lang (the computer language category - from dev-lang/bashforth to dev-lang/yasm - and that was just for X86 boxes, and doesn't include programs with their own scripting languages, or stuff like the ability to do shell scripts and so forth...  I even found 


> dev-db/xbase
> Latest version available: 2.0.0
> Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
> Size of files: 481 kB
> ...


and


> dev-db/xbsql
> Latest version available: 0.11
> Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
> Size of files: 300 kB
> ...


Though I don't have them installed on my machine (no need for it)

(And if you are worried about crackers from whatever country, the source code for all of this is part of the deal...)

This is one of the reasons why I like Linux so much - there isn't much in the way of stuff that isn't available on it, and it is all just a download away...

Gooserider


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## jebatty (Jan 24, 2010)

Alive and still learning. My limited knowledge also limits my ability to understand exactly what some programs/languages etc do and how to use/learn them. A Google on programs to graph csv and other delimited file types was not productive in locating graphing programs with results I could understand. After spending more than an hour on Google, when I found something for $14, it was a bargain. So, have you seen something like this lately: 256K bytes minimum of memory to run a database program, one billion records per file (table), 10 files open simultaneously, lightning fast sorts, no crashes, hangs or mysterious hourglass symbols while you wait ....... and wait .... etc. ? I know none of that is true with Windows. Linux may be free of all of that also, and yet for many things DOS is so elegant.

EDIT: forgot, reference is to dBASE III. I also have Clipper, which accelerates DBIII by a couple of orders of magnitude.


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## Gooserider (Jan 24, 2010)

jebatty said:
			
		

> Alive and still learning. My limited knowledge also limits my ability to understand exactly what some programs/languages etc do and how to use/learn them. A Google on programs to graph csv and other delimited file types was not productive in locating graphing programs with results I could understand. After spending more than an hour on Google, when I found something for $14, it was a bargain. So, have you seen something like this lately: 256K bytes minimum of memory to run a database program, one billion records per file (table), 10 files open simultaneously, lightning fast sorts, no crashes, hangs or mysterious hourglass symbols while you wait ....... and wait .... etc. ? I know none of that is true with Windows. Linux may be free of all of that also, and yet for many things DOS is so elegant.
> 
> EDIT: forgot, reference is to dBASE III. I also have Clipper, which accelerates DBIII by a couple of orders of magnitude.



Don't have anything to match those specs exactly, but considering that Linux will run on everything from an IBM experimental wristwatch to most of the TOPS 500 supercomputers, I'd be surprised if there wasn't something in there somewheres that did what you wanted...  There are getting to be a great many very tiny dedicated Linux setups for very small systems - including a lot of the new "smartphones" of which the 'droid' is just the latest...  It wouldn't surprise me at all if that $30 data logger wasn't already running Linux under the hood, a great many of your current consumer electronics devices are.  (It is a significant issue according to the GPL enforcement folks, as many of the companies involved are NOT properly complying with the software license, and giving back their source code)

Gooserider


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## deerhntr (Jan 24, 2010)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> jebatty said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Actually, there is a small free version called DSL(Damn Small Linux) that has a bunch of packages, but is intended for small systems, and will boot from a CD,Thumb drive,pen drive whatever. Very small, and can be found at Dan Small Linux. Pretty neat, and the price is right!


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## Gooserider (Jan 24, 2010)

Yes, that is one of many choices for small distros - there are MANY more...  If you want lists of distributions, many of which can have some interesting focuses, you can try either  Linux Weekly News or Distrowatch Weekly  Might be worth looking for one of the science oriented distros to see if it has what you want...

Incidentally on the database side, most stuff these days tends to be using some flavor of SQL, - again there are a bunch of competing Linux programs that do SQL type databases, which pretty much don't have limits on the number of records - we are talking "Enterprise Class" software here...

Gooserider


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## jebatty (Jan 27, 2010)

The auduino-type route in a Linux environment using MySQL would be a very good route to go. Since I have a need to be resourceful, my very low bucks approach may be accomplishing just about the same thing for datalogging (control can come next). A few posts above I mentioned the $30 4-channel datalogger which I got. This plugs into the serial port, which my desktop had but my laptop does not. For $1.00 I got a Ser/USB converter, and now the datalogger is fully USB compatible. The datalogger produces an output text stream through the serial port. Hyperterminal Capture grabs this and produces a *.txt file of the data. The datalogger reads all 4 channels 47 times/minute, each channel read is a line of data (the temp reading), so it is producing lots of lines of data. This simple datalogger itself is not programmable.

Since I had a database program, dBase III, I structured a very simple database and 3 short programs, run successively, which 1) read the *.txt file created by the datalogger, 2) process the data to produce a temperature reading at a user-selected interval (I chose every 5 minutes), and 3) output a *.txt file which can be read by the $14 graphing program. The graphing program produces a separately colored graph line for each of the 4 channels. The y-axis is the temperature scale and the x-axis, based on my data, was a 5 minute scale (5, 10, 15, etc.), but it just as easily could be a time-stamped scale by adding a couple of lines of code.

Example: I ran the datalogger for 6 hr - 14 minutes. It produced a *.txt file with 70,492 lines of data, each line being a temperature reading for each channel. Total time was 4 seconds to give the command to load dBase, run the dBase programs to process the 70,492 lines of data, and output a *.txt file with a temp reading every 5 minutes for the graphing program to read.

dBase III produces *.dbf data files. The programming language for dBase III is quite similar to SQL. For an excellent discussion of dBase III and its relationship to SQL see dBase III on Wikipedia.

As someone probably said before me, you do what you can with what you got, I think for my purposes I'm close to logging and graphing all the data I want. And because the datalogger now uses the USB port, I could probably add as many temperature channels as I wanted at $30 per 4 channels. To add control, I see a kit is available with 4 channel temperature/relay control for $80. 

In the next day or two I'll do a temp logging on my boiler system and provide the results.


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## Nofossil (Jan 27, 2010)

Thanks a bunch, guys! I didn't have enough to do already, without the distraction of OpenFlashCharts. I chose jpgraph a few years back to do my charting. It works pretty well, but it depends on some pretty heavy-duty PHP on the server to create the actual graph image. Not a problem on my server, but no way it will run on my controller.

Creating the graph with ShockWave puts the load on the user's computer (with the web browser) so it could be a nice solution. It looks really nice, but unfortunately it appears to be bug infested at the present level of development. I ended up spending a whole day that I don't have. The killer problem is that I graph discrete signals (on/off) as a horizontal line that's present if the load or signal is 'on' and not present if it's 'off'. To display a line with missing sections, you use null values anywhere that you don't want the line. OpenFlashChart (or the shockwave plugin) will crash if more than a certain number of nuill values are received. Works great for analog plots, but I can't reliably show more than a single discrete plot. Here are jpgraph and OpenFlashChart samples.

Mwk1000 (and any others) - have you run into this problem, and do you have any suggestions?


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## deerhntr (Jan 27, 2010)

jebatty said:
			
		

> The auduino-type route in a Linux environment using MySQL would be a very good route to go. Since I have a need to be resourceful, my very low bucks approach may be accomplishing just about the same thing for datalogging (control can come next). A few posts above I mentioned the $30 4-channel datalogger which I got.



If conserving cash is your primary goal, then the aurdino route is the way to go. Your data logger is 4 channels for $30 or $7.50/channel. An arduino is $30, for as many one-wire devices you can put on your network until you run out of the 32K of programming memory.  I currently have 5 on a 150' network and plan to add more once I order some more sensors. Currently, that's $6/channel. Let's say I go to 10 sensors, that is $3/channel.  Your data logger is $30 with no sensors, and so is the arduino. If you want to expand beyond 4 channels, you have to shell out another $30 for another data logger, not sure how much for control. Not sure if you can daisy chain or you will need another serial port. The nice thing about the arduino is you get 14 digital pins, and 6 analog pins to configure how ever you chose. You will easily become resource limited in your current setup.

Now for the stuff you will really like. All the software is FREE. The development environment for the arduino if FREE. If you chosoe to use linux it is FREE. if your choose to use MSQL it is free. Also, there is a huge user community out there in the "Web World" that is doing a lot of the programming for the arduino already. All you have to do is tap into that resource. And did I mention, it is all FREE. If you want to stick to the DbaseIII route, great you can simply write your arduino data to a txt file and import it to dbase like you are currently doing.

All kidding aside, If someone has a little programming background, or not, the arduino is the most cost effective route to implement a data logging/simple all-in-one control system. It is flexible, programmable, and fairly inexpensive when compared to other similar solutions. Cost per channel is significantly less once you cross the 4 channel need, and it is easy to expand.

My 2cents.


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## WoodNotOil (Jan 27, 2010)

I haven't reviewed this whole thread (as it is lengthy) and I am not sure I have a ton to contribute...  That said, I have been working a lot with mysql and did a great deal of experimenting with the free web space offered by batcave web hosting. It comes with a free database and php, mysql, etc all installed already.  It also has phpmyadmin for you to use to setup and manage tables, fields, and data initially.  It saved me the time and effort of converting an old PC to a linux server and trying to get mysql running on it and it is way more accessible to the outside world.  I was able to start right in on writing the php instead of wasting time configuring hardware.  Not sure how easy it would be to get your txt or other files to post into the data set from your boards though.

I run kubuntu linux exclusively at home and I am a big supporter of the open source movement.  I love to hear about others making good use of these collective resources.  I am looking forward to seeing what you all come up with and possibly doing some data logging from my arduino eventually.  Thanks jebatty for suggesting a way to do that.


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## Nofossil (Jan 27, 2010)

For sure a full-blown PC is an easy way to get going, and with Linux / MySQL it's all free. My issue is that PCs suck a bunch of power. If the PC would be running anyway it doesn't matter, but I hate to add a power load like that if I don't have to.

For things that have to run 24/7, I like little embedded systems like the Arduino.

My personal experience with Linux based systems from full-blown servers to embedded systems is that it's really reliable but sometimes a challenge to figure out. Lots of people willing to help, and Google is a great resource as well. Good luck.


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## jebatty (Jan 27, 2010)

Lots of things to think about and different ways to go. Using my laptop rather than desktop was for the primary purpose of saving power, although I would guess it still takes a lot more power than an embedded arduino/Linux/MySQL etc. I haven't seen DS18B20 sensors for less than about $4-5 each + s/h. The 4-ch board I mentioned comes with two of these, and two left to user-provide. So up-front cost is still a little more, perhaps. Ease of use could not be beat - no new operating system, no new programming, to get the data stream. I already have my database program; approximate equivalent of MySQL, plus I believe *.dbf files can be fully queried through MySQL. I'm not sure that I really want to log 24/7; more likely 1) to set up the boiler system to peak and tweak performance; 2) then to periodically monitor performance to verify operational efficiency; and 3) to play around and experiment just for the fun of it -- something I keep coming back to about the time I think I'm "done" and ready to rock on the rocker, although the last rocking I did was at a Metallica concert with my wife last summer -- I think we were just about the oldest rocking head bangers there.

At this point my control system is very adequate and dependable, being a combination of aquastat's, a digital differential controller, and a 2-stage digital controller. Yet, adding my own computerized control system would really be fun. Also, my shop does not have a telephone/DSL line, so a full hosted Web based system is not practical, although it could run locally. My new shop might be close enough to run Wifi, but that will have to wait until the new shop is put in operation this summer.

Yet, I have so much fun with computers, programming, experimenting, etc. that it is very likely the time will come, probably sooner rather than later, that I will take the jump into Linux. Maybe first install on my PC to get the hang of it, then move to another embedded platform. All this makes my future brighter, more challenging, and the prescription to keep my brain from stratifying with a dementia (maybe already demented) my wife says I don't already have.

.... ready to head over and fire up the Tarm and monitor storage loading. I let the tank run down a fair amount and getting time/data from top, middle and bottom for a full charging would be quite interesting. We're headed into some really cold weather, about -20F at night, so this would be a good time anyway to load up storage to 190F.

I also just finished installing 5 digital temperature readouts on a panel: boiler supply, storage middle, storage bottom, boiler return, and flue. I will post later a pic of the readout panel + graphs from the new datalogging.


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## WoodNotOil (Jan 27, 2010)

jebatty said:
			
		

> I haven't seen DS18B20 sensors for less than about $4-5 each + s/h.



I got the 2 samples of the DS18B20+ here http://www.maxim-ic.com/quick_view2.cfm/qv_pk/2812/t/or to make sure they were going to work.  Ended up just using the samples in my project, but plan to get more.  A great opportunity for those trying out different temp sensor to get an idea of integration and accuracy.  Still not a bad price if you have to actually buy them.


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## deerhntr (Jan 27, 2010)

nofossil said:
			
		

> For sure a full-blown PC is an easy way to get going, and with Linux / MySQL it's all free. My issue is that PCs suck a bunch of power. If the PC would be running anyway it doesn't matter, but I hate to add a power load like that if I don't have to.
> 
> For things that have to run 24/7, I like little embedded systems like the Arduino.
> 
> My personal experience with Linux based systems from full-blown servers to embedded systems is that it's really reliable but sometimes a challenge to figure out. Lots of people willing to help, and Google is a great resource as well. Good luck.



Bill,

Your system by far is the Cadillac of data logger / control systems. Well thought out and robust. Definitely top of the line. As far as cost goes though, I think it is hard to beat the arduino. I never really thought about the power consumption thing, but is you are "off-grid", the a down and dirty microcontroller like what is found on the arduino board may be the way to go.  

As far as post processing the data once collected, I'm not sure how it can be done without a pc. I guess the old way.....pencil and paper :lol:


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## deerhntr (Jan 27, 2010)

WoodNotOil said:
			
		

> jebatty said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Found this place "googling" FOR ds18b20S, Tayda Electornics. At $1.60/ piece, that is the cheapest I found them, other than the free samples. They are located  in thailand, so shipping is a week to 10 days or so. I think I may give them a try.


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## Nofossil (Jan 28, 2010)

deerhntr said:
			
		

> Bill,
> 
> Your system by far is the Cadillac of data logger / control systems. Well thought out and robust. Definitely top of the line. As far as cost goes though, I think it is hard to beat the arduino. I never really thought about the power consumption thing, but is you are "off-grid", the a down and dirty microcontroller like what is found on the arduino board may be the way to go.
> 
> As far as post processing the data once collected, I'm not sure how it can be done without a pc. I guess the old way.....pencil and paper :lol:



My system is a controller, and it's overkill for a lot of control applications. It's definitely way more than you'd need for just datalogging. It does have a fair amount of overlap with less expensive systems. Both it and the Arduino consume very little power, so there's not much cost associated with running them 24/7.

As far as analysis, that's what makes me interested in OpenFlashChart. A small embedded system like mine or the Arduino could log data onboard without processing, and spit selected data on demand to a full-blown PC with web browser which can then make the pretty charts.

Right now, I log data to an SD card and dump it on demand as a .csv file to a spreadsheet on the requesting PC. That allows in-depth analysis but doesn't make nice graphs without some additional effort.


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## jebatty (Jan 28, 2010)

Need to do some more work on the graphing proram, but here is a low resolution b/w graph of yesterday's 6 hour burn. I adjusted the bottom tank sensor part way into the burn, so the bottom graph line in the early part of the burn is not accurate, except for the start temperature. I only had 3 data channels monitored. Also a few pics of the laptop with the datalogger, just the datalogger, and my new and almost completed digital monitoring panel. Still a couple more digital thermometers to add.

I burned a total of 146 pounds of wood, kept the boiler in pretty much a high burn state. The available energy in seasoned (20% moisture content) wood used in an actual usage environment (400°F flue gases) is about 6050 Btu/pound. Wood Energy. My flue gases averaged around 480F, so my actual available Btu/lb is less, but using the 6050 figures, total wood energy delivered during the burn was 883,300; storage raised approximately from average of 150 to 190F (+40F) at 1000 gal = 333,600 btu's stored; during the burn outside temp was +5F and windy, inside temp started at 50F and ended at 68F. Btu's delivered to storage was approximately 38% of total energy delivered, balance to heat the shop.


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## Nofossil (Jan 28, 2010)

I like the digital gauges - where did you get them and how are they driven?


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## Hunderliggur (Jan 28, 2010)

Is their a onw-wire temp sensor that will work in the flue gas?  Any suggestions where to get one?


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## deerhntr (Jan 28, 2010)

Hunderliggur said:
			
		

> Is their a onw-wire temp sensor that will work in the flue gas?  Any suggestions where to get one?



Unfortunately, the max temp on the DS18B20 is 257 °F /125 °C. I'm afraid flue gas temps cross over into the realm of thermocouples.


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## jebatty (Jan 28, 2010)

All but the bottom right were from Sure Electronics and about $18 each, 2 channel driven with DS18B20 sensors (two provided), or with other sensors (NTC). I've had trouble so far to get them to work with both channels, ch 1 is working fine, but am getting advice from Sure to solve the problem. When and if the two channels work, you can display ch1, or ch 2, or alternate between ch 1 and ch 2 automatically, display in C or F. The bottom right uses K-type for the flue, single channel, about $20 from Procon. All meters operate on 12vdc.

Sure Electronics
Procon


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## ewdudley (Jan 28, 2010)

Hunderliggur said:
			
		

> Is their a onw-wire temp sensor that will work in the flue gas?  Any suggestions where to get one?



Here's one:

http://www.1wire.org/Files/Awtrey/Articles/SensTherm.pdf


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## Hunderliggur (Jan 28, 2010)

How many one-wire sensors can a single Arduino controllerhandle?  I know I could RTFM, but it is probably quicker to ask here.  At $2/sensor and $40 for the controller, my wish list is adding up fast - Storage top/middle/bottom times 2 (6), 4 zones, outside temp, boiler out, boiler in, HX in, HZ out, ref/freezers (why not - it can alarm me) = 18+.


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## deerhntr (Jan 28, 2010)

Hunderliggur said:
			
		

> How many one-wire sensors can a single Arduino controllerhandle?  I know I could RTFM, but it is probably quicker to ask here.  At $2/sensor and $40 for the controller, my wish list is adding up fast - Storage top/middle/bottom times 2 (6), 4 zones, outside temp, boiler out, boiler in, HX in, HZ out, ref/freezers (why not - it can alarm me) = 18+.



One wire sensors are designed to operate as a network. Each sensor has a unique 64 bit address which allows the sensors the then share a bus of three wires(Ground(GND), Vdd(Power 3V-5V), and the Data line(DQ). It is the job of the controller(arduino) to address each sensor individually to read or write. So, in theory a one wire network can have as many sensors as you want, all on just ONE 3-wire bus. I have read of networks of over 2K(2000) sensors, and 500 meters in length. 18 sensors is a chip shot.


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## Hunderliggur (Jan 29, 2010)

Great! I can't wait to get my allowance  ;-P   Maybe I will order a BUNCH from that overseas supplier. Let's see chicken brooder, well temp, ......


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## Gooserider (Jan 29, 2010)

Where you might run into a tight spot isn't on the number of sensors, but on the processing hardware end...  I haven't studied it in detail, but I would imagine that each sensor would require a certain minimum amount of processing and storage space just to read the data off the sensor and stuff it into memory - I suspect that this might be reasonably substantial, and cause a resource shortage at some point, especially on a comparatively low horsepower unit like an Arduino...   Of course that wouldn't rule out having multiple nets, each with its own raw data collector Arduino, feeding into a central server...

Gooserider


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## deerhntr (Jan 29, 2010)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> Where you might run into a tight spot isn't on the number of sensors, but on the processing hardware end...  I haven't studied it in detail, but I would imagine that each sensor would require a certain minimum amount of processing and storage space just to read the data off the sensor and stuff it into memory - I suspect that this might be reasonably substantial, and cause a resource shortage at some point, especially on a comparatively low horsepower unit like an Arduino...   Of course that wouldn't rule out having multiple nets, each with its own raw data collector Arduino, feeding into a central server...
> 
> Gooserider



The Arduino USB board has 32K of program space(2K used by boot loader). If program memory space is a concern, the Arduino Mega has 128K(4K used by boot loader) of program space, but it costs $30 more. My program for 5 sensors is 8K, and a program for 1 sensor is 7.7K. So there is about 7.6K of overhead, and that's roughly 100 bytes/sensor. Not a large amount of memory space / sensor. As far as processing power goes, the arduino is really just reading and writing a digital pin to poll the one-wire sensor network, then a small amount of math to convert  °C to  °F, then serial back to the PC. Temperatures changes really slow in most HVAC systems, so even if your loop slows down to poll ever 30 seconds to a minute, who cares. Right now, I slowed things down to poll every 10 seconds, and it still to much data. once a minute is most likely fine.

A couple of draw backs I see with a general purpose microcontroller board like the arduino are:

1) They are designed for hobby/bread boarders. So they do not have a case, strain relief for wiring, minimal or no circuit prototyping area. The arduino does not even come with stand-off legs so that you can place it safely on a table top. You will need to "package" your project once you finalize the design.
2)You need to be willing to hack some code, solder some wires and components, and debug your project to get it up and running. You most likely won't need an oscilloscope to figure out the read/write timing, but you may need a DVM, and some resistors and capacitors to tune your network if it gets big.  A little "web research" will be require also. The Dallas web site has some really good info/app notes. Dallas One Wire
3)Using one for a system Controller(ala NoFossil Controller) would be a stretch. Lots of things to worry about, so just buy one of NoFo's systems and save the time , worry and effort. 
4)As goose pointed out, at some point memory space and processing power will come in to play, but for my application of a data logger with maybe 20 or 30 sensors in the end game, it should work fine. Others will have to make their own call.

Enjoy


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## jebatty (Jan 31, 2010)

Had to show my improved data logging and graphing skill. Here is a 24 hour period in 20 minutes samples. The graph shows in fact what I believed to be true about good stratification in a 1000 gallon horizontal tank. The sharp rises in the top of tank line clearly shows when I added wood after the initial loading. 

The very simple 4-ch data logger I've described above works well and is a very inexpensive entry into data logging, for anyone interested. Graphing programs are readily available and inexpensive also. The wrinkle is processing the text data from the data logger. The spreadsheet program I have (not *xcel) is not good at this, and maybe another spreadsheet program would be. I described above use of a database program, and unless someone has another way, I would recommend the database route: MySQL or similar, for example. Mine is an old DOS-based program from the 1980's which works exceptionally well at near lightning speed. The database program inputted and processed 276,328 lines of temperature data to output 72 lines of data for the graph in about 8 seconds (one output data line for each 20 minute sample in the 24 hr data period).

Another way to go is to get a more advanced data logger (available at <$100) with some programming which would allow a programmed data sample rate and possibly ready-formatted data output. This would greatly simplify data collection and likely be well-adapted to using a spreadsheet program for any final data processing and graphing.

I suspect that if you already have a Linux or Windows database program, MySQL or similar, for example, you not only could process the data but also could design and output a graph without needing a separate graphing program. You probably also could do a real time data input directly from the data logger and output a real time graph. From there the real time website is only a skip away.


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## sgschwend (Jan 31, 2010)

So after 16 hours you haven't even started pulling the heat from the middle yet!  1000 gallons, said like Homer Simpson. 

Your tank did send me a message asking for a thicker coat, all kidding aside, do you think more insulation would help?


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## Gooserider (Jan 31, 2010)

sgschwend said:
			
		

> So after 16 hours you haven't even started pulling the heat from the middle yet!  1000 gallons, said like Homer Simpson.
> 
> Your tank did send me a message asking for a thicker coat, all kidding aside, do you think more insulation would help?



Not the way I interpreted it, Steve...  It looks to me like Jim is getting a bit of mixing up at the top, perhaps excessively so...  I see the entire tank going up to a peak, followed by a rapid drop of the bottom to about a 20-25°F differential, and then the entire tank dropping at the same rate... (as all three sensors have a parallel path)  That suggests to me that there is some mixing going on, which is hurting the stratification.

The ideal would show a rapid drop in the bottom temp, down to lowest useable temp, while the middle and top stayed at or near peak.  Then the middle would follow the same pattern while the top stayed level, until the cold reached the height of that sensor, and you got a drop at the top - which would be the signal to re-fire...

Gooserider


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## sgschwend (Jan 31, 2010)

So, because the bottom did not drop that far compared to the other probes you think it is mixing?  If the bottom had dropped quite a bit more then you would say the tank needs more insulation?

I think that my 500 gallon tank:  the top drops about 10 degrees in that amount of time while the bottom drops 40-50.


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## Gooserider (Feb 1, 2010)

sgschwend said:
			
		

> So, because the bottom did not drop that far compared to the other probes you think it is mixing?  If the bottom had dropped quite a bit more then you would say the tank needs more insulation?
> 
> I think that my 500 gallon tank:  the top drops about 10 degrees in that amount of time while the bottom drops 40-50.



Well, lets split that in half...  

1. NoFo, and some of our other people have said that a well insulated tank will drop 1-2°F / day w/ no thermal draw on it.  This doesn't seem unreasonable to me as a goal, as per the descriptions I've seen it doesn't take huge amounts of insulation to get to that point, but going for more than that gets expensive in terms of the amount of thermal efficiency gained...  Even assuming that the cost per inch of added insulation is a constant, if each additional inch cuts the thermal loss by 50%, the first few inches cut a lot of loss, but at the 1-2°F / day level, the gains are pretty small...

OTOH, if the tank was not well insulated, then you'd see a drop across the entire tank, though the hot sections would cool faster than the bottom since radiation is a function of  ΔT.  Still should be a fairly steady drop...

It is possible that lack of insulation is part of the explanation for Jim's temp drop - I seem to recall him saying he leaves part of his tank bare so that it can act as a shop radiator...

2. If one had the hypothetical "perfect" tank with complete stratification, then the tank temperature would be low (minimum usable temp or close to it) at the bottom, and at some point you would have a narrow thermocline separating the hot and cold layers, with hot on top, with very little change in temp within the hot and cold layers.  As the heat was used, the thermocline would slowly move up the tank till it reached the top... If you had a series of sensors (say 10, instead of just three) you would see a "stair step" effect as each sensor would be reading at the hot temp until the thermocline reached the sensor, at which point it would drop steeply to the lower temp.  W/ only three sensors, I'd expect to see the same thing, just not as dramatically.  The narrower the thermocline, the more abruptly the temperature would drop.

OTOH, if there is a lot of mixing, I'd expect to see less difference between the sensors.

Looking at Jim's chart, I see a high peak with all three sensors within a degree or so of each other at around 420-450.  All three sensors start to drop at the same rate till around 500.  Shortly after that the top and bottom sensors continue to drop in unison, while the bottom sensor drops till it has about a 20°F ΔT by around 660, with most of the drop happening from 500-580.  After that point, all three sensors drop at the same rate until we hit the end of the chart.

I see two possible explanations - either there is enough mixing in the upper portions of the tank to drop both sensors at the same rate, or we have good stratification, w/o pulling enough heat out of the tank to make the middle sensor see the thermocline and start dropping, but the entire tank is going down because it isn't insulated well... (If we had more sensors in between the 3 that are already there it might be easier to tell which it is...)

Gooserider


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## jebatty (Feb 1, 2010)

I think there is enough room here for everyone to have some truth. I can add a little bit for objective evaluation. 

1) Tank is 19' long, 39" (maybe 36") diameter, and about 8' is not insulated: 1-1/2' at each end and 5' left of middle. After the 5' uninsulated portion and moving towards the near end there is 2' of 6" fiberglass. All three sensors are in the middle of and under that piece of insulation and taped to the tank exterior with aluminum tape. The balance of the insulation around the tank also is 6" fiberglass.

2) In that 5' un-inuslated section is all of the plumbing: the supply pipe with a right angle fitting inside the tank to direct hot water to the far end of the tank, and about 8" away towards the near end is a dip tube to the bottom of the tank for the return. 

3) Supply is controlled by a two-stage controller. The first stage supplies about 4-5 gpm while boiler supply water is less than 188-185F. At 188F the second stage circulator is turned on and stays on until boiler supply temp drops below 185F. With both stage circulators on, supply is in the 8-10 gpm range. The two stage circulator control greatly minimizes boiler idling. Idling is an issue as my lines are 1", which at 10 gpm = 100,000 btu at  Δ T20F, and my Tarm is rated at 140,000 btu. With my new shop and boiler move this summer, plumbing will increase to 1-1/4" which will handle full boiler output at 10 gpm or less.

4) I don't think much mixing occurs with stage one circulator. I am certain that mixing occurs when the stage 2 circulator is on. I need to put a sensor on the boiler supply for ch-4 on the data logger, and I think with a 4th curve for boiler supply the mixing may become visible. I will do that, perhaps tomorrow, and log again for a 24 hr period.

5) As to the parallel line cool down curve, the tank is constantly supplying heat to the shop. The temp drop was about 2F/hr. Outside temps during the curve period were in the -5 to +15F range. 

Now, to be a little subjective, I am very pleased by the concrete information added through data logging and graphing. It takes so much educated guessing out of determining actual boiler performance. It really can be easy to do this, as the discussion above shows.

As a side note, I would strongly recommend to anyone who desires to optimize the performance of their gasification boiler to install at least two digital thermometers. The LED panel meter style is quite elegant and also inexpensive. One should be equipped with a probe style K-type thermocouple to monitor stack temp. I tend to think that stack temp may be the most important indicator of boiler performance. With my Tarm, a 465F stack temp is a purring boiler at 100-120,000 btu output. As stack temp rises above 500F, the Tarm easily is hitting the full 140,000 btu output, and at about 400F the Tarm is putting out a good 80,000 btu's. With this thermometer, all it takes is a glance to know exactly how the boiler is performing.

The second thermometer should monitor boiler return water temp. I now keep return water at 150F minimum and more usually very close to 160F. If return temp is below 150F, the Termovar balancing valve needs to be opened a little more to allow more boiler hot water feedback. If return temp gets much above 160F with system return under 160F, the balancing valve needs to be closed more to reduce boiler hot water feedback. No more guessing as to where to set this valve for proper return water protection. As I mentioned in prior posts, I have found that the boiler performs much better if return water is kept hot. I think owners are short-changing themselves if they operate their boilers with low return water temperature.

Of course, the really fun stuff starts with more digital thermometers, data logging, etc. None of this is very expensive or difficult to install. My monitoring panel is nearing completion, and again, just a glance and I now can can tell exactly what is going on at all critical points. 

And thanks for the insights and help from so many during the 3 years of my gasification boiler experience.


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## jebatty (Feb 2, 2010)

One more chart, now with Supply also logged. From my perspective, the most interesting thing is how often my boiler is idling, in spite of my efforts to reduce idling. The upcoming move to 1-1/4" pipe and ability to move more water will address that. Unless someone is interested, I won't discuss what these reveals to me about idling.

Maximum Top of tank was about 194F, maximum Middle and Bottom were 190F. Bottom falls off quite rapidly, and Top/Middle stay together for the period logged with about a 3-4F spread. I'll have to log a longer period to see what happens with further cooling and impact on Top and Middle temp. All in all, quite revealing to me.


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## sgschwend (Feb 2, 2010)

Great stuff, 
It is interesting that you have a 10 degree cycle when you are reaching your peak temperature, that is the value I obtain too.  Not the same boiler, I assembled the controller this Essex uses which is currently programed for 2 degrees of hysteresis.

I find that I try to fuel mine so that it might cycle a couple of times before the fuel is gone.  The storage will be lower but that is OK, there will plenty of heat stored.    That equates to about 3 cubic feet of wood.


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## Hunderliggur (Feb 2, 2010)

I assume that your boiler return is pulled from the bottm of the tank.  If so, your return water temp is much less than 20 delta T at about 180 until the boiler shuts off at 650.  Of couse the boiler is cycling, you are not pulling BTUs out of the unit.  It looks like the water is mixing and/or you had very little water at the bottom of the tank to heat.  I would try letting the tank cool until the middle temp is closer to the bottom temp than the top temp, then try the test again.

Living vicariously through your graphs until I can get my setup.  Right now I perform the hand test on the end of my tanks - gives you a very good appreciation of stratification.


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## jebatty (Feb 2, 2010)

> I find that I try to fuel mine so that it might cycle a couple of times before the fuel is gone.



I do the same thing, but I didn't for this logging sample. I usually put in a final partial load of wood at about middle of tank temp 180F. That partial load then burns quite quickly and bring the entire tank close to 180-190F. My real world burns would involve little idling.

Hunderliggur - I think your analysis is pretty good. For a sample logging purpose, I am now going to let the tank cool substantially (we are starting a little stretch of more mild weather, 0-20F), and I am logging the cool down, and I will log a full charge. Probably let bottom of tank drop to about 100F.


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## Nofossil (Feb 2, 2010)

This is pretty interesting. I have an open tank with an undersized HX coil in it, so I end up not getting much stratification. 

I've included a chart. but it's more interesting to click this link to get a 'live' flash chart - I finally got it working to my satisfaction.

I'd love to get the stratification values that I see in your charts. I do find it interesting that the tank bottom temp gets so low so quickly.


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## jebatty (Feb 2, 2010)

The flash link does not load for me. Will give more thought to the differences in our tank stratification.


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## Nofossil (Feb 2, 2010)

Oops - all fixed now. The  tag on this forum does not like URLs that have square brackets in them.....


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## Hunderliggur (Feb 3, 2010)

Nofo - I am confused - How do you take 130+ Wood Out and heat a storage tank at 160-170?  Is the graph above and the current at Orlan Boiler starting at 4:00AM on Wednesday February 3 AFTER the boiler has shut down and we are just seeing the cooling of the boiler connections?  It looks like the boiler is not runnin based on the flue and combustion temps being the same.


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## Nofossil (Feb 3, 2010)

Hunderliggur said:
			
		

> Nofo - I am confused - How do you take 130+ Wood Out and heat a storage tank at 160-170?  Is the graph above and the current at Orlan Boiler starting at 4:00AM on Wednesday February 3 AFTER the boiler has shut down and we are just seeing the cooling of the boiler connections?  It looks like the boiler is not runnin based on the flue and combustion temps being the same.



Yes - this is the tail end of the fire dying out. The system actually switches to tankmode at around 4:40, and the tank circulator kicks on at about 5:30. If you click on the link that I provided and then choose the 'Previous' button, you'll see the fire and tank heating as below:


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## Hunderliggur (Feb 3, 2010)

That is more of what I expected.  You can see how the stratification eventually reaches the peak boiler output temp.  From the graph above it looks like less than half the tank got to the upper temp since the middle temp is the same as he bottom temp.  Of course, it could be 1 inch above the middle but we would never know unless there were a lot more sensor.  Very interesting data that allows for a lot of evaluation and decisions on fuel management.  I can't wait to get my system instrumented.


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## jebatty (Feb 3, 2010)

I let the tank cool another day, and here is the result. Keep in mind this is passive storage, meaning I'm not actively drawing down but draw down occurs through radiation and convection to the surrounding space. This probably is "best case" use of storage in the sense that there is no flow or mixing at all during the draw down period. It fully appears that a high degree of stratification is preserved through the "draw down." I didn't want to let it go much further by letting it sit until tomorrow morning, as my shop was down to 50F and a low of 7F is predicted for tonight.


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## Nofossil (Feb 3, 2010)

Wow - you can radiate / convect more than 250,000 BTUs to the surrounding environment in less than a day - that's impressive. I would have thought you'd need fins on the tank to do that.


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## Hunderliggur (Feb 3, 2010)

My 2x500 tanks do the same thing - radiate to the basement whic keeps the 2500 sf first floor much warmer.  I'll do the math on the next draw down to make an estimate of the number of BTUs transferred.


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## jebatty (Feb 3, 2010)

NoFo - let me test some comments about your chart that starts with the tail end of the burn. You have a coil heat exchanger.

1) Your maximum top of tank temperature is about 175-180F, which is about 10F less than I achieve with pressurized storage. It seems that about a 10F approach temperature is pretty much the design norm for a heat exchanger, be it coil or plate. It is difficult and expensive to do better than that.

2) I don't understand why your bottom/middle temperatures don't go any higher. Are you drawing so many btu's that you cannot get all of storage to any higher temp?

3) When the tank is in charging mode, is hot supply water injected into the top of the coil and cooler return water to the boiler drawn from the bottom? This flow pattern would seem to achieve maximum btu transfer to storage.

4) Conversely, when you are drawing from the tank, is hot supply to your zones being drawn from the top of the coil and cool system return water returning to the bottom of the coil? This flow pattern also would seem to achieve maximum btu transfer to your zones.

5) Rapid drop in top of tank seems to me to be the expected result.

6) Top/middle tracking closely and about a 10F temp drop to bottom of tank is not too much different than my chart, where top/bottom track closely (4-5F spread) and then a 20F temp drop to bottom. I'm wondering if a reason why you don't experience a greater temp drop to bottom relates to the temp of your system return water? If your system return is coming back at about 150F, then bottom of tank will not be cooler than that. My bottom of tank is partially exposed to quite cool air along the floor of my shop, which may explain why I have a greater temperature drop.

One thing for sure, with data charts it is much easier to see and understand how a system actually works. Most people just want to stay warm. A boiler geek needs something more.


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## jebatty (Feb 3, 2010)

Thanks for the comment on the btu radiation. Missed that. Nearly 12000 btuh -- from the biggest radiation in the county!


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## Nofossil (Feb 4, 2010)

I'm heating the house with only excess heat going to storage. I didn't have enough heat output to raise all of storage to a very high temp. I'm burning a lot of real garbage wood this year - mostly punky poplar, white pine, and sawmill scraps.

I do charge storage with top-to-bottom flow, and discharge with bottom-to-top.

I don't have much baseboard, so my return temps are pretty high.

A cool thing about having data is that you can look back over time to see what's changed. Here's the same day, three years ago. I didn't have flue and combustion temp sensors back then, and the tank bottom sensor was having an intermittent problem.

One big difference: back in 2007, I didn't do a very good job of preventing the boiler from idling. You can see big fluctuations in outlet temp.


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## Hunderliggur (Feb 4, 2010)

Jim,  My radiator is bigger than your radiator!  Not insulating until I save my pennies for the HX and circulator.  Working well to heat the basement below 2500 SF of heated area.  Really keeps the fossil fuel heat from switching on.


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## jebatty (Feb 4, 2010)

Better than good. The bigger the radiator the better. I watched Hunt for Red October last night. Now, one of those behemoths would make a good radiator.


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## jebatty (Feb 8, 2010)

I feel I might be providing more than anyone wants to see. I did the "permanent" installation of sensors on my storage tank, but went with 4 of them top get more comprehensive readings: top, 1/4, 1/2 3/4 and bottom. I also fixed them solidly to the exterior of the tank with aluminum tape, and secured well the 6" of fiberglass insulation covering them to minimize any air leaks. By happenstance I was gone for a couple of days, so the tank cooled down well. Here is the loading chart. The passive discharge chart will follow after a couple of days. In doing this, I found that one of my sensors on the prior charts had an air gap between it and the tank (middle sensor) which likely resulted in the parallel temp differential from the top sensor. That has now disappeared on the load side, and I believe it also will disappear on the discharge side. 

I installed the data logger in a small project box and put a "euro" style terminal strip on the side for the sensor connections. This will permit using the datalogger for different sensors in the future.

If I'm overdoing this, somebody say something. I guess I'm having so much fun that I want to share it.


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## Nofossil (Feb 8, 2010)

jebatty said:
			
		

> If I'm overdoing this, somebody say something. I guess I'm having so much fun that I want to share it.



I'm pretty sure I can't accuse anyone of overdoing this sort of thing.......


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## pybyr (Feb 8, 2010)

nofossil said:
			
		

> jebatty said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I've always liked the expression that "anything worth doing is worth overdoing"-- and sometimes it's fun (and less expensive) to watch and get the vicarious fun of _someone else's_ overdoing of things.


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## sgschwend (Feb 9, 2010)

As we say on the left coast, Van Nuys.  

OK for a little kibitz?  What are you using for your hot water input line/defuser?  The 1/4 almost looks like the top, perhaps it has to do with the volume, I don't suppose you determine location based on volume? 

I was thinking about updating mine to reduce the mixing.  Since it is already installed I was going to directly port the top with fittings that would give about 300% increase in area.  Would not need to weld, just drill and tap.


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## DaveBP (Feb 9, 2010)

Jim,
 I think being able to measure your storage by quarters is a good minimum increment. Besides the "Joy of Data" aspect of it all, knowing better where your thermocline is will allow you to get to the point where you could load the boiler with just enough wood to fill the storage and supply the current load during the burn without overloading the firebox and having the thing idle away heating the great outdoors.

Mae West and I differ on this particular point. Too much of a good thing might not necessarily be wonderful.


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## jebatty (Feb 9, 2010)

> What are you using for your hot water input line/defuser?  The 1/4 almost looks like the top, perhaps it has to do with the volume, I don’t suppose you determine location based on volume?



I see I mislabeled the chart. It should be "TOP, 1/3, 2/3, BOTTOM." I only have 4 sensors. Clearly the top 1/3 (about 12" of vertical height) is mixing quickly, but it is only 12" of vertical height. Based on the wide time gap between the top 1/3 and the next 1/3, I would surmise that some mixing is occurring in the top part of that segment as well. Still, at the end of one hour there is 155-130F water in the top 1/3 of the tank -- very usable for most heating purposes.

Initial system flow rates would be about 2.5 -3 gpm based on a 90F +/- temp rise, and end flow rates for my system max out at 9-10 gpm. Flow rates differ because of action of the Termovar iin recirculating to the boiler and my 2-stage circulator boost at high boiler supply temp.

The input is a 1" line about 1/3 of the way from an end of the tank and with a 90* bend in the direction of the other end of the tank to "shoot" water horizontally along the top of the tank. Return is from a diptube an inch or so off the bottom of the tank.

I also noticed that the Tarm performs near rated capacity. Average tank temperature at the start of the 7 hour burn was 87F and at the end of the 7 hour burn was 188F. That means that average btuh input into the tank was 120,334. Based on the prior charts showing tank draw down to heat the shop at the rate of about 13,000 btuh, the Tarm was delivering about 133,000 btuh, almost rated capacity of 140,000 btuh. I still need a means to log flue temperature, which I am working on. I kept the burn going pretty much on the "full" side, and flue temps mostly were around 480-490F.

The data logger and my digital thermometers both use DS18B20 sensors, and where I have log and temp sensors located together, I'm getting the same readings +/- one degree.


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## Hunderliggur (Feb 9, 2010)

I am considering the top 1/3 2/3 bottom.  I have not done the math, but it is not simply top, 12", 24" bottom (on a 36 inch tank).  Maybe one of our kids can figure this out for u ;-) I think it will be top, 15, 21 bottom (or somesting like that).


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## jebatty (Feb 9, 2010)

Good point! Much less water in top and bottom 1/3's than in the middle 1/3. This also better explains the curves on the chart. Thanks.


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## jebatty (Feb 9, 2010)

I must have had a brain *art when I placed the sensors on the tank. Old age might have set in. Anyway, the sensors are at TOP, down 9" (1/4 point), down 18" more (3/4 point) and BOTTOM. So, the middle 1/2 of the tank is the big gap between the top 2 and bottom 2 curves. Sorry.


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## DaveBP (Feb 9, 2010)

> Much less water in top and bottom 1/3’s than in the middle 1/3. This also better explains the curves on the chart.



Yeah, I was surprised when Autocad told me that in terms of horizontal layers, the middle 10" of my 37" dia. tanks held 1/3 of the volume. Sketch it out and it makes sense, but I hadn't  expected it.
 I bought an Ebay lot of bimetal thermometers and thermowells (5" dia. dials so I can read them across the room) so I'll be measuring the total 1000 gallons in sixths with top bottom and 5 evenly divided between them. With an additional thermowell next to each thermometer well because I know I'll want to go digital someday after reading all the stories you guys are posting. But I do love analog thermometers. At less than $10 each I had no choice.

Ebay serendipity seems to drive a lot of my designs.


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## barnartist (Feb 10, 2010)

Dave, I am interested in the metal meters you speak of. I looked at them on e-bay. Do they make a gauge that you can attach to the surface? These look like the meat thermometers I currently use. If they all have those 5" probe ends, it prevents it from making direct contact to the surface an an in-accurate reading. Forgive my ignorance on this.


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## twofer (Feb 12, 2010)

Just wanted to pop back in this thread and show you guys the logging I have setup for my Arduino system. Here you can see the past 24 hours of temp measurements from my thermal storage.


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## DaveBP (Feb 12, 2010)

> Dave, I am interested in the metal meters you speak of. I looked at them on e-bay. Do they make a gauge that you can attach to the surface? These look like the meat thermometers I currently use. If they all have those 5” probe ends, it prevents it from making direct contact to the surface an an in-accurate reading. Forgive my ignorance on this.



The bimetal thermometers I'm talking about are designed to go down into a thermowell. Kind of a pipe fitting that the probe end screws down into so it's surrounded by water but not in contact with it or under pressure.

 I suppose you could get one to go on the outside of the pipe gooped up with silicone or something to make better contact and insulate it with the dial showing. I think it would give a delayed response to temperature change but much better than guessing. If you watch the auctions you can get them crazy cheap occasionally. My crappy eyes love the big dials. Read them half way across the room.


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## deerhntr (Feb 12, 2010)

twofer said:
			
		

> Just wanted to pop back in this thread and show you guys the logging I have setup for my Arduino system. Here you can see the past 24 hours of temp measurements from my thermal storage.



Nice Data. I really like me arduino too. I have a question on your plot. Why, when you charge your storage doesn't all of the temps(top,middle and bottom) converge to the same max value, then diverge once you begin to draw off BTUs, and the tank begins to stratify? Seems like at some point all the water in the storage tank should be a constant temp.

Just curious!


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## twofer (Feb 12, 2010)

deerhntr said:
			
		

> twofer said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A couple reasons.

The first is that I haven't been charging my tank up to maximum capacity because I was seeing a good amount of idling (thanks to the graphing) due to the warmer weather and the low number of times the house calls for heat. It seems easier to hit maximum temps on the storage tank on colder days when the house is frequently pulling some the BTU's and keeping the delta higher. When the house isn't pulling heat very often the delta is lower and the pump isn't moving the BTU's fast enough. So to conserve wood I just load up enough wood to get most of the tank up to 170-175. I don't have any hard data but rather this is my best guess after watching the graphs.

Now the low temps from the bottom sensor are a whole different story. Since my propane tank didn't have a belly plug we had to fashion a dip tube for the return. In doing so I don't believe we made it long enough because the storage will get up maximum temperature and the boiler will idle for a long time with very little change in the bottom temp.


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## jebatty (Feb 12, 2010)

Really great on the Arudino project. Neat chart. Congratulations! 

I just rec'd in the mail yesterday 16 Dallas DS18B20 from one of the sites mentioned above. Today I attached 2' leads to 4 of them, soldered, heat shrink tubing, to use in another data application. At $1.60 each, can't be beat. I also ordered a stand alone K-type data logger so I can log the whole K-type temperature range. First use will be to log stack temp, which I can merge with my other logger data, and produce whatever charts I might want.

Mentioned in other posts my volunteer work with a 1m btuh Garn and 500K Wood Gun for a 501(c)(3) entity. Will start some data logging for them to get a visual on real world performance (might soften the hype rec'd from the dealers). This is a leaning institution, and data produced will serve impt educational and grant goal objectives. Also will address some operational issues and improve ability to maximize efficient operation of the systems, which are integrated with 11 LP staged boilers. I am suggesting to them to install a permanent, web-based monitoring system to provide educational info for their own use and the public. Will see what happens. Money is really tight.

BTW, a suggestion to all with enough experience to share, please volunteer and get involved with community organizations. The payback will be many times your own benefit.


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## jebatty (Feb 12, 2010)

This is it on my chart posting, unless something really interesting comes up. My sensor locations now are accurate: top, down 12", down 24", bottom. Keep in mind this is as passive storage tank, except when loading. Draw down is by radiation/convection to heat my shop, no circs running. Time period was 46 hours. Below 0 temps at night, mid 20's daytime. Thanks for bearing with me.

*EDIT: the title of chart is in error; Top, 1/3, 2/3, Bottom is correct, as stated.*


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## DaveBP (Feb 13, 2010)

> This is it on my chart posting,



Interesting, Jim, how the bottom cools off more quickly from fully loaded and then after a couple hours cools off at about the same rate as the rest of the tank (parallel to the other higher traces).

I appreciate watching you guys develop these logging systems. I hope to do something like this, too. Someday. But I'll just plagiarize one of you. Good of you all to post this stuff so others that don't have the programming skills can be encouraged to put things like this together using your codes.


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## jebatty (Feb 18, 2010)

Never say never. Added a sensor to measure stack temp. Chart shows stack temp / 2. Initial boiler load was about 2/3 full, let it burn unattended on start-up. When supply temp reached 165F, the circulator is "on." At that time I topped off the load of wood, that's the large spike in stack temp with boiler feed door open and firebox bypass damper open. I then again let it burn unattended, maximum on the draft fan, no fiddling with anything. The wood load was dry pine. It's starting to get too warm, day highs are now just above freezing, lows 0-10F. Boiler firing is every other day now.


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## Hunderliggur (Mar 1, 2010)

twofer - What temperature is your controller set to turn on your circulator and what is the hysterisis value?  Interestinghow it goes from 110 to 175.  Do you have a protection valve (Danfoss or similar) on the boiler input?


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