# Gonna Be Lighting This Place From Logging Slash



## BrotherBart (Feb 5, 2011)

NOVEC is our electric cooperative. What do ya wanna bet this "green" plant is gonna end up doubling my electric rates.  It is for sure gonna eat the fifty million the coop collected when they pulled out of a partnership with a larger coop two years ago. Instead of giving it back to the coop members it, and a lot more, is going into this venture.  >:-( 

http://biomassmagazine.com/articles/5273/virginia-biomass-power-plant-moves-forward/


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## JustWood (Feb 5, 2011)

eF'd if U dew,,,,,, eF'd if U dohnt!    iz whut eye alwayz say!


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## btuser (Feb 5, 2011)

What the heck is forest slash?


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## begreen (Feb 5, 2011)

Stuff they leave behind after clear cutting. Looks like this.


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## RNLA (Feb 5, 2011)

Yeah, forest slash. Gods gift to the wood heating population and in Washington state they wont let you any where near a clear cut to get any. The have all but eliminated slash burns in western Wa. so all the good firewood sit there and goes to waste... "Oh I'm sorry there are no programs that allow the public to cut wood on forest land."  >:-(


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## precaud (Feb 5, 2011)

Policy here is the same. No firewood can be gathered from proscribed burn and thinning operations. It just sits there.


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## begreen (Feb 5, 2011)

As frustrating as that may be, I'd rather it was that way, than stripped clean for fuel. The slash helps protect the soil underneath from washing away. It also protects young seedlings by acting as a mulch. As the slash decomposes, it becomes a time release fertilizer, supporting the next growth of forest.


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## btuser (Feb 5, 2011)

50 megawatts sounds like a big place.  Once we started making pellets and people started buring wood chips for large boilers it made it much harder to get a grapple load of wood.  The price now is $100/cord and rising, but you can't even get the trucks to deliver because they all just head to the mills for an easy drop.  So if that mill is large enough its going to make it harder for you to get your firewood.  Looks like a lose lose for everyone BUT the mill owners.

Build a nuke plant!


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## CJRages (Feb 5, 2011)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> As frustrating as that may be, I'd rather it was that way, than stripped clean for fuel. The slash helps protect the soil underneath from washing away. It also protects young seedlings by acting as a mulch. As the slash decomposes, it becomes a time release fertilizer, supporting the next growth of forest.



BeGreen:

Don't you suppose there could be a break-even point on this? What I'm saying is this: if they took 75% (or whatever % is scientifically/independently determined appropriate) and used that as biomass fuel and left the other 25% in the woods to do as you say, would that work? Maybe a bigger question is from a scientific perspective: how much good does decomposing woodland matter do for the forest as a whole? I agree with you that the slash is not wasted sitting where it is, but I pose the questions of what is the best use.


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## btuser (Feb 5, 2011)

What are they leaving behind?  Obviously they're taking the saw logs but are loggers taking anything to chip? If so, how do you judge what to take and what to leave.


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## mainstation (Feb 5, 2011)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> As frustrating as that may be, I'd rather it was that way, than stripped clean for fuel. The slash helps protect the soil underneath from washing away. It also protects young seedlings by acting as a mulch. As the slash decomposes, it becomes a time release fertilizer, supporting the next growth of forest.




Exactly, well said.  If you haven't already heard there is the theory of Peak Soil.  Removing slash is not the answer.


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## btuser (Feb 5, 2011)

One thing I read is trees do improve the soil because their roots penetrate so deeply.  What percentage of the tree is in the trunk, and what's left behind? My guess is 50/50.


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## WhitePine (Feb 5, 2011)

RNLA said:
			
		

> Yeah, forest slash. Gods gift to the wood heating population and in Washington state they wont let you any where near a clear cut to get any. The have all but eliminated slash burns in western Wa. so all the good firewood sit there and goes to waste... "Oh I'm sorry there are no programs that allow the public to cut wood on forest land."  >:-(



The western slope of the Cascades are my old stomping grounds, so I'm curious about the restriction. Whose forest is restricted, USFS, other federal government, state owned land, private, or all of the above?

I know that firewood gathering from slash on some BLM managed forest land in Oregon used to be prohibited because the only road access to it crossed private property. I never heard of anything similar in Washington.

As I said, just curious.


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## begreen (Feb 5, 2011)

CJRages said:
			
		

> BeGreen said:
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I would think that is possible, but it would be better to ask that question of someone in the field of restoration ecology. I'm definitely not an ecologist. 

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Restoration_ecology


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## Oldmainer (Feb 5, 2011)

Hello Folks...I don't see a problem with using wood to fire boilers to generate power....gives the loggers and others a steady income.  Also don't have a problem with nuke plants. Land that is clear cut rebounds very quickly. My daughter owns 160 acres in northern Maine that was pretty much clear cut. She has owned it for ten years and it has regrown trees over twenty feet tall already. Franklin


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## jebatty (Feb 6, 2011)

> I donâ€™t see a problem with using wood to fire boilers to generate powerâ€¦.gives the loggers and others a steady income.... Land that is clear cut rebounds very quickly. My daughter owns 160 acres in northern Maine that was pretty much clear cut. She has owned it for ten years and it has regrown trees over twenty feet tall already.



All slash is not equal. The highest nutrient levels are found in the leaves and the "living" part of small branches, twigs, and tops. Depending on the type of cut, the prescription may be to lop and scatter this small material, which generally is a good result for soil protection and enhancing new growth. If the cut has a fairly large quantity of dead and dying mature trees not usable for pulp or saw logs, or a large quantity of large branches similarly not usable, then the large material poses a problem for forest health, as this large material attracts insect pests that, while doing a good job in decomposing the material, also do a good job in attacking healthy trees, which is not desirable. So, the prescription may call for gathering this large material, and ... burning it on site or chipping and sending it to a bio-energy facility. Most would agree that the bio-energy use is far better than burning on site.

All clear cuts also are not equal. Depending on the tree type, clear cuts may be essential for new growth that requires full sunlight, like some pines (red and jack), aspen, most oaks, etc. But clear cuts in other forest types may not be appropriate. For example, sugar maple and white pine grow well in the understory, and a select, shelter, or patch cut may be best. 

In MN, MI, WI and Ontario, forest planning is moving towards a much heavier focus on long term forest health, which tends to require maintaining a diverse forest ecology, moving away from forest plantations of single species, and moving towards mixed forest types, mixed harvesting strategies, and restoring more native forest types on sites that have been artificially diverted to non-native forest types. Increase in destructive, invasive insects; increase in temperatures, particularly winter temperatures; increase in erratic rainfall and drought; and climate change all are encouraging diversity as probably the best way to plan for an uncertain future.

Increased use of the forest for large scale bio-energy also is a mixed bag. Many forest areas likely would benefit from removal of large quantities of dead and dying trees, removal of brush understory, and removal of mature trees for which their is no market and which soon will be dying. There is no magic bullet here. What is important IMO is achieving a goal of forest health for all living things and providing a economical, sustainable supply of pulp, lumber and energy. These are not necessarily incompatible, but achieving these goals is not simple or easy.


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## semipro (Feb 6, 2011)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> The slash helps protect the soil underneath from washing away. It also protects young seedlings by acting as a mulch. As the slash decomposes, it becomes a time release fertilizer, supporting the next growth of forest.



Good point 

And possibly a more important aspect of soil protection; preventing excessive erosion protects the watershed including fish populations dependent species, and recreational use.  

Leaving existing small trees in place with their active root systems does much more for soil stabilization than leaving behind "mulch".  That is one of the many reasons that selected harvesting is often recognized as superior to clear cutting.


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## begreen (Feb 6, 2011)

No argument there. The effects of clear cutting on wildlife can be devastating.


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## RNLA (Feb 7, 2011)

I still think that the slash could be responsibly harvested by the general public. I know the problem would be the monitoring of the general public. There would be the average guy with a truck and a few saws, then the guy who thought he was Paul B. with his off color animal coming in and doing stupid! Cutting a cord or two is not going to impact the whole clearing or the whole forest. The argument for erosion is worthy, as well as forest health, but I do think you could get lots of wood out and not foul things up...


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## begreen (Feb 7, 2011)

Could be a liability issue too. Walking through slash is tricky. Lots of opportunity for twisted ankles and the like. There's also the risk of fire from carelessness, but that is just a seasonal concern. Ultimately it is likely a combo of all of these issues that brought about the decision to bail on permits. However, is there anything stopping an individual from making a request to do this on private land owned by the timer company?


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## RNLA (Feb 8, 2011)

Yes, the private timber companies say the same "Liability". I think it is all in who you know. I talked to a guy not long ago who did "fire watch" as required by USFS regulations. He said the job was a little boring as he did a lot of driving on log roads, but the fringe benefit was all the wood he could cut from the slash pile near the landing. This job was a position for a private timber company.


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## JustWood (Feb 8, 2011)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> No argument there. The effects of clear cutting on wildlife can be devastating.


I disagree although each tract depending on topography, soil conditions, tree species,annual precipitation,non or deciduous trees, size of nearby bodies of water ,etc all require different prescribed harvests. There is a beneficial application for clear cuts in many instances.
I studied this in college and it wood blow your mind what professional foresters take into account on a timber cruise.


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## semipro (Feb 8, 2011)

localLEE said:
			
		

> BeGreen said:
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Lee, I'd like to know more; any references?  Its really hard for me to imagine where clear cutting is beneficial to wildlife other than maybe a few select species at the expense of many others.  

I know of one example of managed forests in Texas where a mixed hardwood forest was cleared to establish a southern yellow pine monoculture... on public lands yet.  What they found shortly thereafter was that the pine beetles that were destroying many trees were controlled only by the distance between colonies (they can only go so far to establish a new colony).  Once a pine monoculture was established there no way to control beetle infestations other than with chemicals.  Once a colony made its way to a new pine stand it was quickly and completely destroyed.  The natural controls working in mixed species forests were completely bypassed through modern forest management.  

When looking at how we manage forests or any other natural resource for that matter I look to what occurs in natural systems for analogues.  I can't think of anything other than a volcanic eruption, hurricane, or maybe wildfire that would have the same king of impact on a forest as clear cutting.  In all those cases it seems that the impact on wildlife is not a good one.  Volcanoes at least add nutrients to the forest.  Hurricanes cull older and weaker trees and leave younger ones to take over.  And, wildfires do benefit certain plants that require heat for germination and occasionally clear the forest floor of deadwood that might lead to larger more destructive fires.  It seems that clear cutting provides very little in the way of those benefits and creates other problems.


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## begreen (Feb 8, 2011)

Out here we have clear cuts that are the entire side of huge mountains. If you were a critter and not a top predator, how many wide open spaces are you going to cross? None. Clear cutting has destroyed migration routes for many animals.  Also, the effect of these large slashes on the watersheds are massive. They have destroyed many salmon habitats. Not a trivial thing considering the interconnectiveness of salmon with the local food chain. They can recover, eventually, but the effect is not trivial.


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## Mrs. Krabappel (Feb 8, 2011)

Pacific NW has horrific clear cuts to be sure, but sometimes selective harvesting can result in damage to a larger area.  More road building.  Equipment damaging more acreage.


eta It is really hard to maneuver through a clear cut.   I can't imagine trying to harvest wood with basic equipment.


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## JustWood (Feb 8, 2011)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Out here we have clear cuts that are the entire side of huge mountains. If you were a critter and not a top predator, how many wide open spaces are you going to cross? None. Clear cutting has destroyed migration routes for many animals.  Also, the effect of these large slashes on the watersheds are massive. They have destroyed many salmon habitats. Not a trivial thing considering the interconnectiveness of salmon with the local food chain. They can recover, eventually, but the effect is not trivial.


Clearcuts actually provide excellent cover and travelways for wildlife. Also lots of browse that woodn't be found in a mature coniferous forest due to excessive shade.
Clearcuts in the PNW I believe are based more on sections of a certain maturity timber and the economics of logging.
Equipment designed for efficient slash collection isn't capable of steep gradient. It's doubtful it will happen in the NW as much as flat lands in the south and east .


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## btuser (Feb 8, 2011)

There are winners and losers when you clearcut, or selectively cut for that matter.  There's 5000 acres behind my house being cut right now, and while others are upset over it I am impressed with the care and technique being employed.  They're cutting in swaths about 30' wide, leaving rows of trees in between.   A mix of mature and smaller trees are left (although I dont see many veneer quality logs being left behind!)  with about 40-60% cover being left behind.   After 2 years the blueberry + blackberry bushes are already starting to grow up, with the ash and maple suckers already 6' high.  In a 100'x100' patch I picked over 10 quarts of berries.  

I'm in favor of cutting on public land, but what I don't like is letting people make a mess, then finding out you paid them to do it.   The guys cutting the trees should be the ones making the money.


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## RNLA (Feb 8, 2011)

All of these are good points. I can see why they do not want responsible or irresponsible people cutting off the edges of the clear cut slash piles. There is no way to make sure the people are not doing stupid. It only takes one idiot to screw it up! So as Brother Bart originaly posted, they want to fire a lighting plant with logging slash then go for it in my eyes. If they can use the product and make something out of nothing then OK. As others have said there is no magic bullet to solve our energy problems.


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## pring7 (Feb 21, 2011)

I didnâ€™t realize it until recently, but we have a similar thing in our county.  I donâ€™t think that many people are even aware of it. 


http://www.edf.org/page.cfm?tagID=49840


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## peakbagger (Feb 21, 2011)

firemedic said:
			
		

> I didnâ€™t realize it until recently, but we have a similar thing in our county.  I donâ€™t think that many people are even aware of it.
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> http://www.edf.org/page.cfm?tagID=49840



There is at least one more wood fired power plant in Eastern NC, its in Kenansville in Duplin County, their website hasnt been updated for awhile but here it is http://www.coastalccp.com/. I think the net output is around 26 MW. Its about 10 miles off the interstate adjacent to a textile plant so if you didnt know what it is you would probably assume its part of the textile plant. 

I expect several pulp and paper mills in the state burn biomass and some of the steam is probably generating power.


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## begreen (Feb 21, 2011)

The Seattle Steam plant switched over to wood fuel this year. It seems to be burning pretty cleanly. Located right alongside of downtown and a couple blocks from Pike's Market, I suspect most people have no idea it's burning wood.


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## pring7 (Feb 21, 2011)

I wouldnâ€™t have even thought that was what a wood to power generating structure would look like.  I will have to keep an eye out next time I go down there.  Weâ€™ve been to Kenansville a few times for their wine festival.  I should pay close attention to see if I can find it, well before the festival.  

I wonder what the cost of something like that is.  It's probably something privately owned by a few well off partners.  With all of the dead wood around from floods and hurricanes I could quit my day job and just feed the boiler every day.


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## Wood Duck (Feb 21, 2011)

I think around here (central Pennsylvania) it is the usual practice to allow firewood cutting of logging slash in state forest - and there is a lot of state forest in this part of the state.  Unlike what others have written I don't think there is any ecological reason not to cut firewood from logging waste. First of all, access to the forest is restricted to established roads - the temporary logging roads are in most cases deliberately blocked with waste logs when the loggers leave the area. This means that only a small percentage of the woods are close enough to roads for most guys to bother cutting wood. Even in the areas where somebody is cutting, most of the wood is left behind because it is small or twisty/hard to cut. Second, here in the eastern deciduous forest dead rotting wood isn't a major part of the forest floor ecosystem. The image of a seedling growing from a rotten log is not representative of how things actually happen here most of the time. Sure, rotten logs can provide habitat for some creatures, but there is almost always enough rotting wood left behind for lots of salamanders and centipedes.

There is a large area of Black Moshannon State Forest not too far from here that was logged and there are hundreds or maybe thousands of cords of oak left rotting in the woods. I need to check out a firewood cutting permit once the snow melts.


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