# Being sued for selling "cracked" woodburner.



## FrankG23 (Apr 2, 2011)

I sold this woodburner that has 2 - 8" ducts coming from the top that was hooked into my furnace plenum.   It was in my home when I bought it.  I never had any problems with it.  worked great.  I had decided to sell it this past winter because I only had 1 cord left, and I couldn't cut any more wood b/c of back problems that are pretty bad.  

Anyway's she called me up 2 weeks later saying I sold it to her and her boyfriend UNOPERABLE, and I knew this BEFORE I sold it to her.  I had used it up to a week of her buying it, and 2 months non-stop before that,and every year since I bought the home.  I told her this as well.  I even vacuumed it out for her inside after we took out the firebricks.

She sent a certified mail explaining that it was like that when she bought it, and had 2 installers and 3 welders and told her it would cost 350 or more to fix it.  She wanted 300 back to fix it or the 400 that I sold it to her for and I go over an hr. to pick it back up.   I told her "I NEVER HAD ANY PROBLEMS WITH IT" she say's when she talked to me i said it had "NO CRACKS"  which i did say this b/c she asked this.  I never seen a crack or repaired it in anyways.  They inspected and with her boyfriend did as well.  I told her the age was unknown and it was here when I bought the house, which it said that in my ad.   Craigslist ad to boot.   

She said she's bringing her installer to testify as well in the letter.  I sold it for 400 and she's suing for 1260$.    I was mad and never responded to her phone call b/c the way she talked to me and said about taking me to court the first time i even talked to her.  She did send pictures showing a 3-4" crack that was near some circular pipe  hole that was plugged off in the lower middle of it, in the back, and she states "THIS COULD only  be seen after the installer took it apart as per protocol",this was to the letter to the judge .  I did send a letter back 4 weeks later telling her it was in working conditions and you inspected it yourself and bought it.   I even have my power bills that show my electric doubled the month after she bought it.  The avg. temps were exactly the same both months according to the power bill as well.

Does she have a case? we go this month to small claims court.   


Sorry for confusing post, if any statements are unclear, please post and i'll answer them better.


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## Garjan111 (Apr 2, 2011)

go to her house to pick it up and fall, then sue her!


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## pen (Apr 2, 2011)

I'm no lawyer but unless there was a written warranty then I really don't see what she can do.  In my state, everything is considered to be sold "as-is" unless otherwise stated.


pen


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## BrotherBart (Apr 2, 2011)

If the stove is indeed cracked then the best thing  you can do is give her the money back. Now or after the nice judge tells you to and tacks court costs on top of the $1,260 judgement.


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## woodchip (Apr 2, 2011)

Problem about offering her money back is that it could have easily been cracked during istallation or been banged slightly during transit which could have caused a hairline crack which then opened up upon use. 

Something tells me you may well end up in court, but make sure you take your power bills along and show the judge it was operating satisfactorily up to the time it was removed and taken away.

If your courts are the same as ours, we usually have a mediation session first to try to sort things out without the court process.
This may well be the place to show your power bills or any other evidence you have to back up your testimony.

At the end of the day, it's cases like this (and this is not the first time that I have seen something like this happen) that just want to make me smash any old stuff up and not give it away cheap, not worth the hastle.


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## Alternative Guy (Apr 2, 2011)

Only in America!  Good grief.  It's interesting that such a crack could not be repaired for $50, and that the buyercouldn't chalk it up to not having inspected it better.

I was leaning in the direction of "no warranties," but the person who points out the cost of losing is substantial has a good point.


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## Danno77 (Apr 2, 2011)

as-is applies here, too. Good luck with that crazy lady. I'd tell her she can have her money back and that you have a 15% restocking fee.


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## mike in ct (Apr 2, 2011)

i'm thinking it can be 1 of 2 things here. 
1) the people are schisters.... and had a burner identical to yours with a crack and searched craigslist  till they found one identical and bought it only to do what they are doing now, or  

2) you overlooked the crack.........you would know better than anyone here if thats the case. if so than morally and practically you should offer to refund money or if your sure it was'nt cracked like they are showing than fight it on principle. your calling there bluff, simple as that. all you have to say it "they inspected it, that was'nt there when i sold it to them" just cause an installer says there is a crack in their stove, does'nt mean it was there when you sold it to them. 

i believe in doing the right thing, but not being a smuck about it. i am a little suspicsious that the asked you over phone if it had a crack in it, then they get there and "dont see a crack" that they were concerned about, and then get it home and low and behold " a crack"........ sounds fishey to me. 

even if you do decide your going to refund their money, i would not feel comfortable about driving over to them to get it. i would say, yup , bring it back and i'll give you your money back, otherwise, cant help ya. just my feeling on it.


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## weatherguy (Apr 2, 2011)

Sounds high to fix a crack, I would offer her $150 and sign a waiver saying shes happy with the sale and settlement.


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## Alternative Guy (Apr 2, 2011)

Why is she suing for $1260, if it only cost $400?


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## Alternative Guy (Apr 2, 2011)

I think weatherguy is on the right track.  That price sounds awefully high.  Maybe offer a lower amount and be done with it, with a waiver.


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## Hass (Apr 2, 2011)

Alternative Guy said:
			
		

> Only in America!  Good grief.  It's interesting that such a crack could not be repaired for $50, and that the buyercouldn't chalk it up to not having inspected it better.
> 
> I was leaning in the direction of "no warranties," but the person who points out the cost of losing is substantial has a good point.



Indeed...
I'm an ASME welder, and if it is a 3-4" crack, can be fixed to 100% in a few minutes maybe?
Heck, even if the crack is one or two feet long, still a few minutes tops.
regardless if it's cast or what have you.

Anyway, if you buy it it's as is.
tell her to... well... yep.



Or do this.


			
				Garjan111 said:
			
		

> go to her house to pick it up and fall, then sue her!


Instead of falling, maybe say you hurt your back... since it already is hurting... :]


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## Danno77 (Apr 2, 2011)

I would never normally assume this, but I'm bored and OP is new. Is there a possibility that this OP is actually a person who just bought a broken stove and was trying this scenario out on us to see which way we'd go?

Ok, I'll take my tinfoil hat off now.

I still think you ask for the stove back and give her the money back. Then fix it and CL it again, or throw it in a corner until you get around to doing something else with it.


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## cmonSTART (Apr 3, 2011)

If the crack is in a cast iron part, that could be expensive.  Steel is easy to fix.  

This is really a better question for a lawyer I think.


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## dougand3 (Apr 3, 2011)

In the future....A bill of sale signed by the buyer acknowledging "No warranty or guarantee, expressed or implied, is conveyed with this property. Property is sold in AS-IS condition"...should do wonders.


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## Jaugust124 (Apr 3, 2011)

I can't believe that any judge would give her $1260.  According to my understanding of the law (and I only know anything from watching the "People's Court") is that she is only entitled to the amount of what she is out.  She can not be made better than what she was before she bought the stove. If you know what I mean.


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## SolarAndWood (Apr 3, 2011)

Very simple, used piece of equipment.  Cash as-is where-is buyer beware.  DO NOT OFFER ANY SETTLEMENT as it will be held against you in court.  If you knowingly sold a POS to someone, karma is a...


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## BrotherBart (Apr 3, 2011)

What brand and model stove are we shooting in the dark with here?


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## FrankG23 (Apr 3, 2011)

SolarAndWood said:
			
		

> Very simple, used piece of equipment.  Cash as-is where-is buyer beware.  DO NOT OFFER ANY SETTLEMENT as it will be held against you in court.  If you knowingly sold a POS to someone, karma is a...



I really had no idea.  If there was a crack don't you think we would of saw it when we vacuumed it out after we took out the bricks?  I did this for her and her boyfriend.  

If she was so concerned why not take it apart? Her boyfriend was there.    I never knew you could take these apart, there are like 75 screws holding it together but I just thought it was holding the top to the sides. 

Also I am not sure what model it was.  

It was steel NOT cast.


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## BrotherBart (Apr 3, 2011)

She asked you if it was cracked. You said it was not cracked. They found a crack. Raise your right hand and repeat after me:

"I am screwed."


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## FrankG23 (Apr 3, 2011)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> She asked you if it was cracked. You said it was not cracked. They found a crack. Raise your right hand and repeat after me:
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> "I am screwed."



I never saw a crack the whole time I owned it......... my wife is going to testify we used this for 6 years with no problems.


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## onion (Apr 3, 2011)

Treebuster

What state are you in?

I can be a vindictive SOB so I would probably spend $100 to go talk to a lawyer and get a good case together and file a countersuit immediately for defamation of character.  2 weeks is way longer than I would think any implied warranty would last for a private transaction (if there was one).  

$1260 is ridiculous

I wouldn't breathe one more word to her other than see you in court or tell her your lawyer's phone number.  She's counting on you to spook from the lawsuit.  I bet you can make her blink.


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## BrotherBart (Apr 3, 2011)

Go down to small claims court before your court date and sit and listen through a couple or three cases and then decide.

But if you said it wasn't cracked and it is then you will lose. It makes not one bit of difference if you didn't know it.


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## dougand3 (Apr 3, 2011)

Too bad Johnny Cochran is dead...I can just see him...."If the crack don't spit...you must acquit"


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## drizler (Apr 3, 2011)

This sounds like the sort of person who wears clothes for a week or more then takes them back to the store.   What's the bet that she loades it full of wood, launched it and made the crack herself?   You might want to go check the court records and see if this critter or her other half have done this sort of thing before.   Some of these vermin have their lawyers number on speed dial.   It seems quite suspicous that someone looks at something and doesn't notice a crack, buys it used as is then manages to locate all these welders with sky high estimates to fix a simple crack.   Me calls, "BULLSHITE".


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## woodchip (Apr 3, 2011)

Driz said:
			
		

> What's the bet that she loads it full of wood, launched it and made the crack herself?



This is actually a probable scenario, knowing personal experience some years back.

I used to work in a garden centre, and one of the things we sold was those Mexican chimney things. A customer bought a terracotta one, and from what I can imagine, instead of seasoning it and starting off with a small fire, they lit a fire which was not warm enough, then stuffed loads in to make it hotter (all greenish wood). Not getting hot enough, they stuffed more in it, and then as the wood dried out, it took off and ended up like a volcano in the backyard, and the chimney just cracked up into several bits and collapsed. 

Taking all the comments from everybody else here into account, I suspect you have a fairly good case. 

How experienced is the person you sold the burner to in using properly seasoned wood? 
Probably very inexperienced, and chucked on any old stuff around. 
In fact, they probably even had a truckload of "seasoned" wood delivered in (we all know what "seasoned" wood means, had at least a month piled in a yard somewhere in a heap.....no chance of drying through.

Having a fire with unseasoned wood could easily cause a scenario like the Mexican chimney above, cracking cast iron if it's heated too quickly or stressed and heated in some areas more rapidly than others. 
You can imagine it now, someone chucking more and more wood on to get instant heat like they are used to with an electric fire. 

Think carefully through all the scenarios, without saying anything to the other person. 
Prepare a whole set of questions about how they lit the fire, and how much they put on. How experienced are they in burning wood etc.......

If it was me, I would definitely go to court over it. 

Just remember, once you make an offer, it will be seen as an admission of liability by anybody o the other side.

And as a last thought, when welding cast iron, you make a groove in the weld so it will take, just a different technique to welding steel. 
That in itself does not make it incredibly expensive to do. 
So I would be a bit suspicious of anybody who says how expensive it is to repair.

Plenty to think about there, so keep us posted as to how things go


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## greythorn3 (Apr 3, 2011)

this is plain old abuse of the legal system, they should be locked up in jail for this, along with them junk debt buyers.


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## FrankG23 (Apr 3, 2011)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Go down to small claims court before your court date and sit and listen through a couple or three cases and then decide.
> 
> But if you said it wasn't cracked and it is then you will lose. It makes not one bit of difference if you didn't know it.



If your the plaintiff, please tell me how you can prove if it was there before or after?  You inspected it with your boyfriend  and found it suitable for the price.    Please watch these 2 videos,  around 3:10 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDnj5rlEV7s    also watch this one as well  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hbBcJcHTjY


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## FrankG23 (Apr 3, 2011)

woodchip said:
			
		

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I Will let you know how it goes,  She say's the inspector will come to court and testify it was "not working" when I sold it to her.


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## SolarAndWood (Apr 3, 2011)

TreeBuster said:
			
		

> She say's the inspector will come to court and testify it was "not working" when I sold it to her.



Is she claiming that she never fired the stove?


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## FrankG23 (Apr 3, 2011)

SolarAndWood said:
			
		

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yes, this crack was found while installers were installing it.  she claims "it could only be found after they took it apart as per protocol"


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## Jack Straw (Apr 3, 2011)

As a big Judge Judy fan I can tell you that she would decide in your favor. When you buy something that old "let the buyer be ware".  I think a strong case can be made that it cracked when she had it moved to her location or during the installation. She should have had it inspected before the purchase. I don't believe that she can get anything more than the purchase price of the stove even if she does win. If she does win get the stove back and scrap it out.
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## FrankG23 (Apr 3, 2011)

After the exhaust flue/duct was taken off the back, you could of seen down in there.   I am not sure if they looked or not, I looked down there and never saw any problems.    If you were so concerned with something, wouldn't you take time to inspect more?   Also,  I feel like this is almost like a  used car sale,  the buyer asks you "does the engine have any oil leaks"  you reply "NO"  then 2 weeks later you discover an "oil leak" after a mechanic looked at it.  

I told her this as well  "It was here when I bought my house"  "I used this for 6 years with no problems, as well as my wife"    My wife got served with the same complaint as well as me.  My wife's name isn't on the deed, or was even at home when this transaction was taken place.   I do have the seller's disclosure papers with nothing mentioning of a faulty woodburner or that it was fixed before i bought the home.   She knew all the information that I knew before she bought it.  That's why I am going to court.   They have to prove w/ out a doubt , that I lied to them.   Which in fact I did not.  hence the only reason I am going to court.    she claims that "I KNEW before I sold it to her that It didn't work right and was faulty".


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## woodchip (Apr 3, 2011)

TreeBuster said:
			
		

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If she could only see a crack after it had been stripped, how could she claim you knew about the crack.

She can't have it both ways.


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## FrankG23 (Apr 3, 2011)

woodchip said:
			
		

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exactly, that's why she's having the "installer" come to testify "I knew about it" before I sold it.   besides the occasional downdrafts, we never had any problems, and that was only when we started it after it being not used for acouple of warm days outside.


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## Corey (Apr 3, 2011)

Not top be construed as legal advice, but:

As others have posted, you probably have a good case.  I would research the laws in your area, but usually the "as-is" law  prevails unless otherwise stated.  You could further testify you allowed them to inspect it as much as they wanted before the purchase.  For future reference, the best answer is 'no cracks that I know of' or 'no XXX that I know of'.  This gives you some leeway as you are not a certified inspector, metallurgist, etc (that I know of!)

The down side is, if this goes to court, you loose.  How?  Well, you really need to have your ducks in a row when you hit the court room.  This means research into the laws of the sale, documentation /copies of everything, a log book of all phone calls, emails, correspondence, etc,  certified mailings, time off work to go to court, etc.  So the best case is you have a judgment on your behalf, owe nothing and you're out time off work, gas, time spent on research, etc.  Second worst would be a 'reasonable judgment' you are ordered to pay back the $400 + court costs which could be another couple hundred, plus time off work, etc.  Absolute worst would be she gets the full judgment and you are out everything.  But even 'winning' means lost time, wages, etc.

The one thing which would worry me, it it seems she is threatening this lawsuit as almost the 'first option' - sounds like she's been down this road before and probably knows her way around the court system - for one reason or another.  With most 'normal folk' a lawsuit is usually the 'last resort'.

You might try to call the bluff and mention the 'as is' law (authoritatively cite her the exact statute, etc) mention you will testify they both had adequate time to inspect the stove before the sale. (perhaps send a certified letter of this statement, or at least keep copies of all emails, etc)  If she won't drop it, the second step would be to offer her a refund if they bring the stove in original condition back to your place.  If she still balks, mention you will send the offer in a certified letter which you would also bring to trial.  If she goes for the offer, that would at least get you 'out from under' the situation with a minimum of time, money, and work invested.  If not, you would at least have documentation that you tried to work it out before court. Which would be better in the judges eyes than testimony of you / your wife.

Anyway, let us know how it turns out.


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## Jaugust124 (Apr 3, 2011)

Others have mentioned here that the repair should reasonably cost around $50 instead of the $150 she is claiming.  How about you have a welder look at it at her place and give her a legitimate estimate to get it fixed.   Maybe it would avoid court altogether.  It also would help you in your case if you do go to court.  The judge would see that she is trying to gouge you.  She probably won't go for it because it sounds like she wants you to help her pay for a new stove.


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## FrankG23 (Apr 3, 2011)

Jaugust124 said:
			
		

> Others have mentioned here that the repair should reasonably cost around $50 instead of the $150 she is claiming.  How about you have a welder look at it at her place and give her a legitimate estimate to get it fixed.   Maybe it would avoid court altogether.  It also would help you in your case if you do go to court.  The judge would see that she is trying to gouge you.  She probably won't go for it because it sounds like she wants you to help her pay for a new stove.



she lives over an hr. away.   she's claiming 350 or more to fix it as well.   I am not contacting her because she will try and use it against me prob. in court.


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## snowleopard (Apr 3, 2011)

The $1260 she's asking is to help cover costs of all these expert witnesses she's assembling.  Sounds like she has enough of them to make up an open-heart surgery team.

Another possibility for witnesses on your behalf was alluded to above.  I bought a car from a man who has a reputation (that I didn't know about) as a liar and a thief.  He had a list of court actions against him as long as my arm.  Easy to find after the fact.  

If you run a search of the court system, and you find other people that she's launched fraudulent claims against, the might be irritated enough with her to be willing to testify to that.  I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know if it would do you any good, but it's worth looking into.  Or so I see it.


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## FrankG23 (Apr 3, 2011)

cozy heat said:
			
		

> Not top be construed as legal advice, but:
> 
> As others have posted, you probably have a good case.  I would research the laws in your area, but usually the "as-is" law  prevails unless otherwise stated.  You could further testify you allowed them to inspect it as much as they wanted before the purchase.  For future reference, the best answer is 'no cracks that I know of' or 'no XXX that I know of'.  This gives you some leeway as you are not a certified inspector, metallurgist, etc (that I know of!)
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I did tell her on the phone when she called 2 weeks later and told her it was sold as-is and you inspected it yourself along w/ your boyfriend.   I did send a certified letter stating it was inspected by yourself and it was in satisfactory condition to buy it, something like that.


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## Billy123 (Apr 3, 2011)

Like a used car, she should of had it inspected before she bought it. She won't win in court and may be bluffing.

Why not get a boat,  anchor it in front of her house, and blast Dean Martin music until she drops the case?


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## FrankG23 (Apr 3, 2011)

Billy123 said:
			
		

> Like a used car, she should of had it inspected before she bought it. She won't win in court and may be bluffing.
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> Why not get a boat,  anchor it in front of her house, and blast Dean Martin music until she drops the case?



She already filed a court lawsuit.  our hearing is april 25th.  Court cost's for 100$.


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## GatorDL55 (Apr 3, 2011)

Let her take you to court.  She has no case.  Caveat emptor.  Buyer beware.  All private party transactions are as-is.


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## FrankG23 (Apr 3, 2011)

GatorDL55 said:
			
		

> Let her take you to court.  She has no case.  Caveat emptor.  Buyer beware.  All private party transactions are as-is.



tx

I told her exactly what I knew about it and how much I used it, which was every winter.  never had a problem with it.


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## Backwoods Savage (Apr 3, 2011)

I know of two people who bought cars privately. Both ended up having cracked blocks. Neither was able to get a refund. You bought it, you fix it. One was an easy fix. The other was more costly. But neither was able to return the car for a refund.


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## weatherguy (Apr 3, 2011)

The more I think about it and read these replies I think i would go to court too, I sometimes look for the easiest way to get out of situations lik this because of the time invovled, even if you win, sometimes you lose. If shes a professional shyster I would probably go on principle alone.
Im still not understanding how the crack wasnt visible after you disconnected the stove to transport it but it is on installation, what am I missing?
Good luck


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## FrankG23 (Apr 3, 2011)

Backwoods Savage said:
			
		

> I know of two people who bought cars privately. Both ended up having cracked blocks. Neither was able to get a refund. You bought it, you fix it. One was an easy fix. The other was more costly. But neither was able to return the car for a refund.



did they go to small claims court?


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## FrankG23 (Apr 3, 2011)

Here is the pic that i had on CL, I also had a picture of the other side as well.


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## Danno77 (Apr 3, 2011)

I dunno my wood furnaces very well. What is that? and Older Fire Chief, like the smaller 300 or something?


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## laynes69 (Apr 3, 2011)

It looks like an old johnson, or 1400-1500 series hotblast by usstove. For 400.00 I don't know what she expected. A new furnace like that is much higher. If I bought something that looked like that, I would expect to do some repairs on it. If its in the cast iron collar on the back, I believe that piece can be purchased and replaced. I would let her do it though, as-is. Its kinda like buying an old rusted, beat up car and suing because it needs repairs.


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## Billy123 (Apr 3, 2011)

TreeBuster said:
			
		

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Oh, My bad. Didn't see that.

Still, can't see how she can win this case. You might bring a letter from an expert showing that it is possible that she very well may have cracked the stove.

No Soprano fans here?


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## FrankG23 (Apr 3, 2011)

Billy123 said:
			
		

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Well I found one exactly like that at Home Depot for 1450 plus tax, which I am going to bring to show the judge how cheap I sold it for.   From the picture she sent me, it looks like it's one big box that is all welded together.


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## SnapCracklePop (Apr 3, 2011)

Billy123 said:
			
		

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Ooh, me, me!  I'm a Sopranos fan. And a pacifist. And all that leftie stuff. Go figure...


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## FrankG23 (Apr 3, 2011)

I never said "NO" to the question about cracks either.   I said something like this "nothing wrong with, it's been working fine since I bought it"  I just re read  her letter.


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## jerseykat1 (Apr 3, 2011)

when i was being sued, i hired a lawyer (the amount was much greater than 1200 dollars) and first thing the lawyer told me was that the plaintiff has to PROVE (provide sufficient evidence of his or her claims) that you are guilty of knowingly selling her a faulty furnace. 

All verbal communication never happened unless there are witnesses so if you told her something that would make you automatically at fault, unless she has it recorded, in writting or a credible witness. Then the conversation never happened. 

Ask yourself what possible evidence could she provide that proves the unit was faulty before she loaded onto her vehicle?
Ask yourself what possible evidence can you provide that proves the unit was not faulty?
Compare the 2 pieces of evidence and see which one would make a more convincing case in the eye of someone that's unbiased.

In order for you to win you will need to state that the unit was 100% without question perfectly usable and not cracked and the only possible way it could have gotten that way was during transit or installation, who is to say the installer did not crack it and lied to the customer to cover their own ass?

IMO any judge with any good sense will not force you to pay more than what she paid for the unit. Civil court costs are not too unreasonable (i know in NJ last i check about 6 years ago it was less then 50 dollars), find out what court costs would be if you lost and ended up having to refund what she paid plus court costs and ask yourself is it worth it.


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## drizler (Apr 3, 2011)

I wouldn't in the slightest hesitate to call her and offer your welder resolution.      It shows that you have attended to her concerns and at least attempted to meet her in some fashion half way.     That is not a bad proposal at all.    Secondly you will bring this up in court that you made this effort.    Also that you in no way "prettied it up" covering it with stove black or paint to conceal the crack.    You also want to have some witness neighbor who will testify that you used it right up until you removed it for replacement and that the replacement was for your back problems.   It wouldn't be a bad idea to have your doctor shoot you some written memo to that effect.     That will go a long way towards showing your real intent.      Also remember this.   Since said crack is deep down inside there is really no way that you could be expected to know before hand, how the heck could you.    Last of all she AND her boyfriend inspected it before buying it used and none of you saw any cracks so she is not going to win.       Believe me, she is shopping for a free stove and has her lawyer on speed dial...............She's bluffin, call her on it. 
  At the mediation meeting make darned sure you make these facts clear and you probably want to float her the offer one more time to either bring it back or have it welded by a normal welder charging a NORMAL price to fix this crack for under $100 just to end the thing right then and there.     She probably won't go for it though either as she has to pay for her "professional witnesses".    What that will do though is show that you bent over backwards for an unreasonable  person who is clearly trying to work the system.      It all goes towards that PREPONDERANCE OF EVIDENCE that will work in your favor if it plays out to a real court appearance.


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## FrankG23 (Apr 3, 2011)

jerseykat1 said:
			
		

> when i was being sued, i hired a lawyer (the amount was much greater than 1200 dollars) and first thing the lawyer told me was that the plaintiff has to PROVE (provide sufficient evidence of his or her claims) that you are guilty of knowingly selling her a faulty furnace.
> 
> All verbal communication never happened unless there are witnesses so if you told her something that would make you automatically at fault, unless she has it recorded, in writting or a credible witness. Then the conversation never happened.
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Her boyfriend was there and inspected it.    It was in good working condition when I sold it to her though.


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## Biff_CT2 (Apr 3, 2011)

onion said:
			
		

> Treebuster
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Countersuit for defamation?  Are you for real?  That is extremely bad advice.

Defamation law varies by state.  Some states have statutes, some have judge made law.  Regardless of the source of defamation law, the nuances of defamation can be expected to vary from state to  state.  As such, you cannot suggest off the cuff that the seller here bring a defamation suit without knowing the home states of the parties.

Moreover, defamation, regardless of the which state is involved requires publication to a third party.  Here, the poster has not indicated that the purchaser has spoken to anyone other the seller regarding the cracked stove.  As such, it's challenging to assert that the buyer has defamed the buyer by complaining about the condition of the stove; there's no publication of the defamatory material by the buyer.  If anything, the seller is on the verge of defaming the buyer with publicizing the dispute here - though I think such a claim would be weak without more than what's been posted here.

Finally, truth is generally a defense to a claim of defamation.  As the seller's comments here reflect, the seller did not inspect the stove for cracking.  As such, were someone inquire into whether the buyer or seller is telling the truth, it would at best be 'awkward' to suggest that the stove had no crack when the buyer picked it up when the seller has written here that he did not in fact inspect the stove for serviceablity prior to the sale.

And, under certain circumstances, bringing a meritless suit (as suggested here) can result in the plaintiff and plaintiff's attorney being santctioned and/or fined.

A better suggestion would be for the seller and buyer to discuss it.  It's possible that the crack occurred during shipment, during install, or during use by the buyer as well as being an existing defect at the time of sale.  You simply cannot know.  As always, being reasonable is smart.  Being a hardass in response to the telephone call is foolish - particularly if this ever does go to small claims court.

I wonder about these sort of cracked stove sales.  I read on here fairly regularly about folks overfiring a stove and others talking about sellikng used stoves.  I can't recall anyone mentioning scrapping a stove due to overtemping it or cracking.  Which is why I wouldn't fool around with a used unit under any circumstances.


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## FrankG23 (Apr 3, 2011)

Driz said:
			
		

> I wouldn't in the slightest hesitate to call her and offer your welder resolution.      It shows that you have attended to her concerns and at least attempted to meet her in some fashion half way.     That is not a bad proposal at all.    Secondly you will bring this up in court that you made this effort.    Also that you in no way "prettied it up" covering it with stove black or paint to conceal the crack.    You also want to have some witness neighbor who will testify that you used it right up until you removed it for replacement and that the replacement was for your back problems.   It wouldn't be a bad idea to have your doctor shoot you some written memo to that effect.     That will go a long way towards showing your real intent.      Also remember this.   Since said crack is deep down inside there is really no way that you could be expected to know before hand, how the heck could you.    Last of all she AND her boyfriend inspected it before buying it used and none of you saw any cracks so she is not going to win.       Believe me, she is shopping for a free stove and has her lawyer on speed dial...............She's bluffin, call her on it.
> At the mediation meeting make darned sure you make these facts clear and you probably want to float her the offer one more time to either bring it back or have it welded by a normal welder charging a NORMAL price to fix this crack for under $100 just to end the thing right then and there.     She probably won't go for it though either as she has to pay for her "professional witnesses".    What that will do though is show that you bent over backwards for an unreasonable  person who is clearly trying to work the system.      It all goes towards that PREPONDERANCE OF EVIDENCE that will work in your favor if it plays out to a real court appearance.



I have my electric bill that doubled the month after she bought it.  Also my wife will be with me, and used it with me every day before we sold it.  She got served as well, even though she wasn't there, or owns the home.  I bought it 4 years before we got married.

She mailed a DEMAND LETTER, stating 3 options,  300$ to fix it, come down to her house and give her the money back, or magistrate's office.   Never sent a repair bill estimate.


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## Hass (Apr 3, 2011)

cmonSTART said:
			
		

> If the crack is in a cast iron part, that could be expensive.  Steel is easy to fix.
> 
> This is really a better question for a lawyer I think.



cast is still but a few minutes to fix...
maybe a little bit of preheating, but definitely not $1260 worth.
or even $100.


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## BrotherBart (Apr 3, 2011)

Biff_CT2 said:
			
		

> I can't recall anyone mentioning scrapping a stove due to overtemping it or cracking.



Except me.

No way would I have sold my old stove to anybody with a busted weld in it. Even though it was hidden.


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## jerseykat1 (Apr 3, 2011)

TreeBuster said:
			
		

> jerseykat1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is her boyfriend a professional?
I think they are trying to bluff you dont fold. Find out what losing would cost you in the odd event that you would lose in court, like was stated by another member maybe you should sit in on a few cases in your courthouse to get familiar with the process of cases similar to yours.


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## FrankG23 (Apr 3, 2011)

jerseykat1 said:
			
		

> when i was being sued, i hired a lawyer (the amount was much greater than 1200 dollars) and first thing the lawyer told me was that the plaintiff has to PROVE (provide sufficient evidence of his or her claims) that you are guilty of knowingly selling her a faulty furnace.
> 
> All verbal communication never happened unless there are witnesses so if you told her something that would make you automatically at fault, unless she has it recorded, in writting or a credible witness. Then the conversation never happened.
> 
> ...



My evidence is, I been using it for 6 years every winter, almost every day in the winter,  Me and my wife kept the stove going non stop almost always up to 1 week before selling it.    I even looked at after she called for so called "Cracks" inside and out,  never saw anything.  Her and her boyfriend looked for defects as well,  I turned it on for her as well to show the motor worked.   I don't know what else proves my point.


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## jerseykat1 (Apr 3, 2011)

TreeBuster said:
			
		

> jerseykat1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



heavy items such as stoves/furnaces are VERY often damaged in transport.


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## Corey (Apr 3, 2011)

TreeBuster said:
			
		

> Billy123 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I would probably high-tail it down to the city/county library, hit the books and find the statute where cash as-is sales are defined.  I fear your wife's testimony won't carry much weight as she has obvious interest in your side.  I doubt the home depot ad or your electric bill will bear much weight either.  Why did you sell such an expensive appliance which was saving you so much electricity for such a low price?  Did you know it was failing and want to dump it off before problems arose? (not saying you did, but she cold easily ask this question - as she apparently has the court system on speed dial)

Ideally, you need the statute, and a copy to hand to the judge, you need to indicate they had ample time to inspect it and it was they who were satisfied at the purchase and you did not say things like 'no you can't look there', or 'don't open the door' , etc.  Might have been good to at least offer the refund if they brought it back...you probably don't need to, but still shows good faith on your part.  If you buy a TV and it craps out, you don't call the store and say 'hey come get this thing and give me my money back'  You box it back up and take it back yourself.  I don't think anyone would expect a private sale to go above and beyond that.

Either way, good luck - just don't expect it to be like Judge Judy / Wapner.


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## FrankG23 (Apr 3, 2011)

cozy heat said:
			
		

> TreeBuster said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It is the law,  only can I be at fault if I knowingly mis-represented it.  Which in fact I didn't.    I told her everything I Knew,  I looked inside and outside, just like her and her boyfriend and never saw anything wrong with it.   It worked great for use until we sold it.

If my wife's testimony doesn't count, why should her boyfriends?


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## snowleopard (Apr 3, 2011)

If you could get a statement from your doc to the effect that your back doesn't want to sling firewood around all day anymore, that would give good a good answer to the `why did you sell this' question.  

Umm. . . you didn't mention to them that hearth.com was a great place to turn to for advice, did you?


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## loon (Apr 3, 2011)

Billy123 said:
			
		

> Why not get a boat,  anchor it in front of her house, and blast Dean Martin music until she drops the case?




would take quite awhile in this house,as i grew up with Dean   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBU1okBsAuA&feature=related

loon


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## fossil (Apr 3, 2011)

Ya know, this thread isn't really going anywhere.  These forums are all about woodburners and there's a boatload of good advice and experience to be had here _pertaining to the topic_.  These forums are_ NOT_ about legal advice.  I'm thinking about shutting the thread down at this point...in fact, the more I think about it, I'm thinking it's overdue.  Come back to us later with an update if you like.  Good luck.  Rick


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## fossil (Apr 4, 2011)

OK, folks...I re-opened this thread, so you all can continue to fail to resolve this issue.  Have a ball.  Rick


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## firefighterjake (Apr 4, 2011)

Well this one time on Perry Mason . . .

Not much to add here since I am most definitely not a legal eagle . . . but I do know that I have always sold my old cars, ATV, snowmobile, etc. specifically "as is" and have written that it into the bill of sale . . . I have also told folks right up front what I know is wrong with an item. Never have had an issue selling stuff that way.


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## Danno77 (Apr 4, 2011)

At this point, I'm mostly interested in hearing what actually happens instead of the "do this" or "do that" mumbo jumbo....


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## fossil (Apr 4, 2011)

Danno77 said:
			
		

> At this point, I'm mostly interested in hearing what actually happens instead of the "do this" or "do that" mumbo jumbo....



In the post above where I shut down this thread, I encouraged the OP to update us in the future when the thing is resolved.  Rick


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## Danno77 (Apr 4, 2011)

fossil said:
			
		

> ... Come back to us later with an update if you like.  Good luck.  Rick


+1


(There, Rick, is that better!!??!!?? hahahaha, I crack me up--->work is slow today...)


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## smokinj (Apr 4, 2011)

fossil said:
			
		

> OK, folks...I re-opened this thread, so you all can continue to fail to resolve this issue.  Have a ball.  Rick




LOL


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## webbie (Apr 4, 2011)

Me?
I'd have given her all the money back.....and felt bad about the situation.

I sell a lot of stuff used - on ebay and elsewhere.

I usually sell it all as-is, but say "it works fine - and look at my feedback". 

I don't worry about the law. If you do as you would want others to do to you, the solution will become more clear......

Just like most here, I'm not a lawyer either - but there is such a thing as "implied fitness for merchantability", which basically means that something you sell to accomplish a task should do that task....

Each situation is different....when I have something which is REALLY beat, maybe like this furnace.....I would have probably noted in the sale ad AND in the bill of sale that it was being sold as scrap......or something to that effect. For instance, I sold some slightly defective chimney extensions I had and clearly told the people I was selling them a piece of "non-combustible decorative building material", not a chimney extension. 

Time is money. Court sucks. If she does not show up the first time, she might have a good excuse....and then you have to go twice! If you don't show, she probably gets the award, but still has to go though trouble to collect it (they can't force money from your pocket in most places without a lot of documents!).....

Sometimes you have to eat one......

Other than all the advice here, I would present this on one of the many legal forums around or talk to a friend who is a lawyer (if you have one)...don't pay a dime, because the whole case is too small to hire anyone!


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## billb3 (Apr 4, 2011)

I know I'd be at least partially interested in the actual outcome.

Seems to me if you were given the opportunity to inspect an item for suitability and you didn't fully take an advantage of that inspection capability with an expert and you buy the item anyway the sale is subject to your own  determinability of merchantability.
I can hear  judge asking her if she inspected it before she bought it. Over and over again.

A retailer I can see taking it back.
Joe Blow down the street selling something  as-is where-is?  Not so sure.


Coming up with an "expert" after the sale seems  unfortunately late.
Why not before ?
Wasn't worth the risk ?
and now she thinks that risk she took belongs to someone else ?

I hope she doesn't make too many trips to Vegas or visit the Indians.


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## BrotherBart (Apr 4, 2011)

If he loses in court I bet we don't hear about it.


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## nola mike (Apr 5, 2011)

snowleopard said:
			
		

> The $1260 she's asking is to help cover costs of all these expert witnesses she's assembling.



You're not responsible for those costs.  She's responsible for legal fees, etc.  The most she could collect is $400 + court costs (and you get your stove back).  And I'm sure you didn't warranty "no cracks" (is that on the bill of sale? is there any proof of that?).  You just stated that you didn't think there were any.  Go to court and win. 
[EDIT] Realizing this doesn't add much to the thread, but I can't delete it.  Consider it deleted in spirit.


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## REM505 (Apr 6, 2011)

nola mike said:
			
		

> snowleopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Duly noted counsler.  Please strike from the record moderator.


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## Mikey1946 (Apr 13, 2011)

If you are the type that welcomes confrontation then I say call her bluff and go to court. First read up on small claims laws and procedures in your state. Don't be intimidated by the subpoena you'll be receiving. The burden of proof in on her as well as you. Prepare carefully for the hearing and remember, no lawyers. 

If confrontation is not to your liking, buy it back from her and move on.


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## Wade A. (Apr 13, 2011)

Treeburner.....I'm a licensed lawyer who has defended and tried civil suits for 25 years. Listen to me when I tell you that you've gotten a lot of bad advice here, and I won't even begin to try and unravel that for you. Sorry I didn't see your thread sooner. The first thing you'll learn when you tell someone about your legal problems is that that had an uncle/nephew/cousin/boss who was in EXACTLY the same situation, and then the trouble starts when you listen to EXACTLY what you should do... There is a maxim in the law, because it is true: No two cases are the same. 

I won't give  any specific advice to you either, mainly because I am not licensed to practice in your jurisdiction, and secondly, because I don't even know what your jurisdiction is. But, wherever you are, your state's statutes and caselaw, even local ordinances ,will control. I will tell you something that you should seriously consider: Turn in a claim to your homeowners' insurance carrier.  Their duty to provide and pay for a  lawyer to defend you is greater than their duty to indemnify you for any judgment that might be entered. Let them tell you that the allegations of the Complaint are not covered under your policy, and they just might pay for a lawyer to defend you even if it is not covered.

If nothing else, although everyone here is motivated by good intentions, the opinions expressed are wildly wide of the mark, with only a couple of exceptions. The rub is that you've no ability to tell which is which, so you're better off ignoring all. 

Aside from that,  tell the truth, bring documentation and any witnesses who will testify to what anyone said or did. Good luck.


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## gpcollen1 (Apr 14, 2011)

All I will add to the lawyers comment is that i would not involve my homeowners insurance at all.  Too many claims to them and they cancel your policy.  Save them for when you really need them...


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## Wade A. (Apr 14, 2011)

CT, you prove my point. Thanks for the reinforcement.  

As useful as this board is for learning how to burn wood, it has serious limitations as a forum for obtaining legal advice. (Personally though, I AM looking forward to the do-it-yourself appendectomy thread......)


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## smokinj (Apr 14, 2011)

ploughboy said:
			
		

> CT, you prove my point. Thanks for the reinforcement.
> 
> As useful as this board is for learning how to burn wood, it has serious limitations as a forum for obtaining legal advice. (Personally though, I AM looking forward to the do-it-yourself appendectomy thread......)



lol That's funny. Would everything be much simpler to just give the money back? 400.00 bucks give me a break.


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## gpcollen1 (Apr 15, 2011)

ploughboy said:
			
		

> CT, you prove my point. Thanks for the reinforcement.
> 
> As useful as this board is for learning how to burn wood, it has serious limitations as a forum for obtaining legal advice. (Personally though, I AM looking forward to the do-it-yourself appendectomy thread......)



I agree with you to an extent.  But what these Forums do is gather the experience of many and gives someone some 'experiences' to use as a decision making tool.  other than that, he is just guessing.  I get advice all the time but it is up to me to sift through it and make a decision.


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## Wade A. (Apr 15, 2011)

CT, I know everyone is trying to help, but here's the difference: If you've got a certain make and model woodstove, that stove is going to look, work and burn  the same, no matter where it happens to be, within the parameters of the design and manufacture, and the known laws of physics . Advice you get on that topic can be weighed and sifted according to those constants. When you are talking about litigation there are no such constants...the law of each jurisdiction is different, and the fact variations of each allegation can be infinite. Look at it this way: If you posted a request here to know the solution to a problem that was specific to your make/model of stove, and someone gave you specific advice that only applied to THEIR (different)  make/model (but didn't tell you their stove was different), how useful could that advice be?  On top of that, what if the person giving the advice claimed that, from his experience, this solution was absolutely what he should do. Right..you could get yourself into a butt load of trouble taking that advice.  Multiply this process by the number of posts that Treeburner got  inl reply to his questions, and you've got an idea of how big a  Charlie Foxtrot could result.

But, this opinion of mine is just an offer, as is yours.....we're all free adults here, am I right?


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## billb3 (Apr 15, 2011)

ploughboy said:
			
		

> .....we're all free adults here, am I right?



Some of us have gotten hitched.


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## Wade A. (Apr 15, 2011)

Yeah, you're right Bill. I signed away that right years ago. Come to think of it, if I WAS a free adult, I'd have made my installation in about half the time, the necessity of clearing everything through the Design Committee being removed and all....


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## benjamin (Apr 19, 2011)

Sorry to everybody for beating a dead horse, but we're still waiting for the official verdict.

I've been in small claims many times, and the first thing you need to know is that small claims court exists so the judge doesn't have to waste as much time on the nuts and looney tunes.  In WI, most counties require mediation, which involves a trained volunteer and a quick meeting then another date for the real trial if no agreement is reached, or in some counties the mediation is with a court employee which involves several hours of waiting, a quick meeting and another date for a real trial if no agreement is reached.  The only time I had somebody not agree in mediation, they were already planning bancrupcy.  I'd consider it fair (or at least extremely expediant) to take the stove back, but no way I'd pick it up or be extorted $300 on a $400 stove.  

I would guess the plaintiff is bluffing because she states that she will have her experts show up in court, an hour+ each way and the time in court? what kind of second hand stove installer is going to be willing to put up with that hassle?  She probably told the installer that they'd get paid "when" she wins her lawsuit, and if they have any brains they'll cut her loose before they lose any more time on a deadbeat.  

My guess is that she's awarded $100 plus costs, but if she hasn't had her morning meth, or the judge thinks she's as unreasonable as you portray her as, you might get lucky.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Apr 21, 2011)

Why would you repair her stove? I forget if this is small claims, if it is you could still appeal if you lost, to the next court up. At that one you can have a jury trial,hopefully. Doesn't sound like a jury would be too impressed with her. I fail to see what kind of negligence or fraud this b.....is going to prove you guilty of, Randy


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## Blondesense (Apr 26, 2011)

TreeBuster said:
			
		

> She already filed a court lawsuit.  our hearing is april 25th.  Court cost's for 100$.



So.....  Inquiring minds want to know.


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## woodchip (Apr 26, 2011)

Blondesense said:
			
		

> Inquiring minds want to know.



+1 

Silence either means off celebrating a victory, or quietly licking wounds.

Or possible failure to come to a decision inside a mediation session, now waiting for a formal court date to be set.


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## Fsappo (May 2, 2011)

woodchip said:
			
		

> Blondesense said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Or serving 30 days for starting a fist fight in the courtroom.  Just sayin


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## kettensÃ¤ge (May 3, 2011)

Ordered to keep hush pending the verdict?


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## mellow (May 4, 2011)

Interesting,  I find wood stoves from time to time and refurb and sell them,  curious to see how this turned out.  To bad we don't know the city,state we could look it up.


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## mellow (May 16, 2011)

Bump,  maybe they had to cancel internet to pay for the fine?


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## Fsappo (May 17, 2011)

Maybe it was just a start to a novel and the guy wanted to use us for some ideas?

It was the best of stoves, it was the worst of stoves.


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## woodchip (May 17, 2011)

One has to wonder why any post was put up originally if we were not going to be treated to the courtesy of some sort of reply after the court date..........

Only has to say he had to keep quiet for legal reasons and it was going to a full hearing.

The cynic in me suddenly wonders if there ever was a cracked woodburner  ;-)


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## Jack Straw (May 17, 2011)

A lawsuit like that could take months or even years. You have to find a jury that doesn't know any wood stoves. Then you have a team of legal experts on both sides. If there is a decision then you have appeals....who knows this could end in the supreme court.


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## heat seeker (May 17, 2011)

woodchip said:
			
		

> One has to wonder why any post was put up originally if we were not going to be treated to the courtesy of some sort of reply after the court date..........
> 
> Only has to say he had to keep quiet for legal reasons and it was going to a full hearing.
> 
> The cynic in me suddenly wonders if there ever was a cracked woodburner  ;-)



+1

Courtesy is always appreciated, it's what oils the gears of the world. Even a "no comment" post would let us know something. I like knowing the end of a story, don't like to be left hanging.


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## Fsappo (May 17, 2011)

All the more reason to buy his book when its published.


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## heat seeker (May 17, 2011)

Franks said:
			
		

> All the more reason to buy his book when its published.



"OUT OF THE FIRE AND INTO COURT, A CRACKED TALE OF FEAR AND CONFUSION"


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## smokinj (May 17, 2011)

Jack Straw said:
			
		

> A lawsuit like that could take months or even years. You have to find a jury that doesn't know any wood stoves. Then you have a team of legal experts on both sides. If there is a decision then you have appeals....who knows this could end in the supreme court.



This would be small claims. Very simple stuff at-least for a verdict one way or the other.


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## BrotherBart (May 17, 2011)

The guy has been posting on a rc helicopter forum since January about this thing. He went to small claims court when he was served and the woman didn't show up and the judge dismissed the case. Says as he was leaving he saw her pulling into the parking lot.

Closing this one folks.


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