# Wood Master



## Joncombat (Apr 13, 2021)

I have been searching for a wood boiler for a while.  I need to install an indoor epa certified unit because of city regulations.  I am down to two (2) units a Wood Master Cleanfire 700 and the Polar G3.  Both units can be installed indoors (UL certified) and will meet my BTU needs.   I cannot find much online about the Polar G3, just that I think they used to be Wood Doctor and went bankrupt.  Woodmaster has been around since 1989.  Does anyone have experience with any of these models or with the manufacturers? How are the product warranty, reliability, customer service, parts availability??? 

Model                              BTU/hr  max       Firebox Volume       wood length           Water Storage          Price                
CleanFire 700            245,000                 23 cubic feet               26"                              330 gallons                $12,500       
Polar G3                        200,000                12.7  cubic feet           27"                               250 gallons                $12,900


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## Case1030 (Apr 13, 2021)

Joncombat said:


> I have been searching for a wood boiler for a while.  I need to install an indoor epa certified unit because of city regulations.  I am down to two (2) units a Wood Master Cleanfire 700 and the Polar G3.  Both units can be installed indoors (UL certified) and will meet my BTU needs.   I cannot find much online about the Polar G3, just that I think they used to be Wood Doctor and went bankrupt.  Woodmaster has been around since 1989.  Does anyone have experience with any of these models or with the manufacturers? How are the product warranty, reliability, customer service, parts availability???
> 
> Model                              BTU/hr  max       Firebox Volume       wood length           Water Storage          Price
> CleanFire 700            245,000                 23 cubic feet               26"                              330 gallons                $12,500
> Polar G3                        200,000                12.7  cubic feet           27"                               250 gallons                $12,900



The Wood Master is owned by and rebranded Central Boiler Edge.

Polar Furnace is based off the Froling European design. Portage&Main owns them now. They have been lacking advertising and product exposure. That will most likely change with the new tax credit out.

You do not want a WoodMaster CF/Central Boiler Edge installed inside a closed building. The smoke that exits the door when loading is unbearable. (The forced air blower makes it even worse)
If you do some research, CentralBoiler has had very bad warranty in the last 5-10 years.

The only Outdoor/Indoor boilers meant for indoor installation are Polar G-Class and the Heatmaster.
I have owned both and can break it down to say the Polar has a better smoke extraction system.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 13, 2021)

I would consider additional thermal storage for any indoor wood boiler, regardless of how much water it holds.


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## Case1030 (Apr 13, 2021)

SpaceBus said:


> I would consider additional thermal storage for any indoor wood boiler, regardless of how much water it holds.



Next week or this weekend when I get time I'll post a video of my setup. I have been very happy so far.

I really like the idea of storing enough heat for 24 hours...1000-1500 gallon Thermal storage... but I personally don't want to dedicate a large indoor space that I pay property tax on to maybe gain a bit of efficiency? But I guess if money or space wasn't an option I'd do it.

Down the road I do plan on putting multiple 55+ gallon water drums in the Greenhouse that has hot water coils running through them to act as a heat sink at night time to even the curve....


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## Joncombat (Apr 13, 2021)

Reading articles on this forum and others you get many conflicting opinions about products, warranties and Customer service.  I do not see many articles ore reviews about Polar furnaces.  I compared their warranty and product specs to the cleanfire and the cleanfire came out ahead.  I will keep searching for info on both units or if another option comes up.  I am looking for 170-200+Kbtu's, 250+ gallons of water storage, and indoor installation.  The Garn looked interesting but it is an open system that pisses steam everywhere, this unit will be installed close to some neighbors.  The search continues!


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## brenndatomu (Apr 13, 2021)

Case1030 said:


> If you do some research, CentralBoiler has had very bad warranty in the last 5-10 years.


This ^ ^ ^


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## Case1030 (Apr 14, 2021)

Joncombat said:


> I compared their warranty and product specs to the cleanfire and the cleanfire came out ahead.



Just because a company writes down a good warranty... doesn't mean they will come good for it. 

Alot of warranty  claims are upto the company's discretion, usually backed with loopholes or other tactics. Might be better off doing a google search then only limiting to this fourm.


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## E Yoder (Apr 14, 2021)

I'm pretty sure Woodmaster/Central Boiler is not indoor rated.  
And I agree, warranty is what you actually do, not what's on paper. That goes for the manufacturer and dealer.


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## Joncombat (Apr 14, 2021)

E Yoder said:


> I'm pretty sure Woodmaster/Central Boiler is not indoor rated.
> And I agree, warranty is what you actually do, not what's on paper. That goes for the manufacturer and dealer.


I need to make a correction.  The unit I was looking at is a HeatMaster G7000, not the woodMaster.  It is rated for indoor use.  The woodmaster is not.  Any feedback on HeatMaster?


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## brenndatomu (Apr 14, 2021)

Joncombat said:


> Any feedback on HeatMaster?


@E Yoder  is the HeatMaster master!


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## E Yoder (Apr 15, 2021)

Joncombat said:


> I need to make a correction.  The unit I was looking at is a HeatMaster G7000, not the woodMaster.  It is rated for indoor use.  The woodmaster is not.  Any feedback on HeatMaster?


I'm burning a G7000 on my house heating it and a couple of small buildings in the mountains of VA.  It's a workhorse, I heat about 3700 sq ft and it could do double that I think. But we're not quite as cold as farther north. 
Mine is outside, I think if it's indoors you'd want to load it when it burns down to coals, the smoke bypass works fairly well but some smoke can slip out the door if there's a lot of wood in it. 
The factory damper settings I've found to be a bit low, I had a bit of creosote in my tubes and the turbulators dragged, I bumped the top air up a bit and it cleaned right out. Super clean burning efficient unit. Exhaust temps are much lower than the old G series.


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## Joncombat (Apr 15, 2021)

E Yoder said:


> I'm burning a G7000 on my house heating it and a couple of small buildings in the mountains of VA.  It's a workhorse, I heat about 3700 sq ft and it could do double that I think. But we're not quite as cold as farther north.
> Mine is outside, I think if it's indoors you'd want to load it when it burns down to coals, the smoke bypass works fairly well but some smoke can slip out the door if there's a lot of wood in it.
> The factory damper settings I've found to be a bit low, I had a bit of creosote in my tubes and the turbulators dragged, I bumped the top air up a bit and it cleaned right out. Super clean burning efficient unit. Exhaust temps are much lower than the old G series.


Are you using any additional thermal storage?


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## Joncombat (Apr 15, 2021)

I checked the EPA website, the G7000 is 70% efficient.  I do not believe it is eligible for the 26% tax incentive program.  Damn!  4K+ in lost savings!


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## Joncombat (Apr 15, 2021)

Has anyone have experience with Crown Royal boilers?  The EPA website has a limited amount of units that will meet my BTU needs, and have a 75% or greater efficiency for the tax credit.  I found a crown royal 7400ID that may work if it is a reliable unit and the company supports its customers.


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## Joncombat (Apr 15, 2021)

Well I found out that Crown Royal does not make the indoor  version of the 7400 so It looks like I might be purchasing a Polar G3.  I just do no the company history, reliability, and customer service history for this company.  the internet does not have many home videos or articles on it.  It is a very expensive purchase and do not want a lemon!


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## brenndatomu (Apr 15, 2021)

I know my brother had looked at the Polar's and was enamored with them after seeing them and talking with the dealer at a local show a couple years ago...seems we have a dealer 1/2 hr from here...


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## Joncombat (Apr 15, 2021)

My options are limited for my application and do not want to make a poor decision based on the few models that will meet my requirements .  I wish other manufacturers would certify their outdoor boilers for indoor use.  This would increase their customer base.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 15, 2021)

Not seeing any bad reviews is a good sign. Most happy owners don't talk about their stuff, usually just people that had a bad experience.


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## PA Mountain Man (Apr 15, 2021)

Joncombat said:


> I checked the EPA website, the G7000 is 70% efficient.  I do not believe it is eligible for the 26% tax incentive program.  Damn!  4K+ in lost savings!


I'm researching Heatmaster also. I spoke to a dealer last night and their G4000 was approved 2 weeks ago but is not published on EPA list as of last night. The G7000 will be tested soon and they expect to be delivering EPA certified units this summer. Find your local dealer and call him.


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## Joncombat (Apr 15, 2021)

PA Mountain Man said:


> I'm researching Heatmaster also. I spoke to a dealer last night and their G4000 was approved 2 weeks ago but is not published on EPA list as of last night. The G7000 will be tested soon and they expect to be delivering EPA certified units this summer. Find your local dealer and call him.


The G7000 is epa listed, the issue is the efficiency is 70% so I will not get the 26% tax credit.


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## PA Mountain Man (Apr 15, 2021)

Joncombat said:


> The G7000 is epa listed, the issue is the efficiency is 70% so I will not get the 26% tax credit.


My understanding from the dealer is Heatmaster is going thru testing again this year to meet the new requirement.


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## Case1030 (Apr 15, 2021)

brenndatomu said:


> I know my brother had looked at the Polar's and was enamored with them after seeing them and talking with the dealer at a local show a couple years ago...seems we have a dealer 1/2 hr from here...





SpaceBus said:


> Not seeing any bad reviews is a good sign. Most happy owners don't talk about their stuff, usually just people that had a bad experience.


I wish they would do more videos and advertising. They have a really good product... I realize not hearing much is a good thing but alot of customers will miss out probably not even hear about Polar.

That nearly happened to me... didn't even know Polar existed until I saw a guy on Facebook mentioned them. After I saw how slick and well finished the exterior looked among other interesting areas, I had to do more research.

Once you see one in person you will know... the attention to detail and knowing nothing has changed on them in a decade and pass the current EPA emissions and 26% rebate says alot. (Some manufacturers have gone through multiple revisions)

Tbh Froling deserves a big thumbs up because that's what I see it basically as...

Every brand has its +and -. In Polars case it's not having adequate exposure. Hopefully that changes.

And if your serious about indoor install. You will have to compare the smoke extraction... anything less gets to be a PITA fast!


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## E Yoder (Apr 16, 2021)

PA Mountain Man said:


> My understanding from the dealer is Heatmaster is going thru testing again this year to meet the new requirement.


That is correct.


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## Joncombat (Apr 16, 2021)

I sent heatmaster corporate a message asking about the efficiency and epa standards and if they are retesting.  Waiting on an answer.   I have a lot of prep work to do to install a wood boiler.  I need to decide an a model to determine the installation location and clearances required for the unit.  Then trenching for pex/electrical, installing the chimney through the roof and insulation/sheetrock.  It will be a busy Spring/Summer.


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## jas702 (Apr 16, 2021)

Joncombat said:


> The Garn looked interesting but it is an open system that pisses steam everywhere, this unit will be installed close to some neighbors.  !



My Garn 2000 has white smoke (steam) coming out the chimney for the first 10-15 minutes of the burn  depending on outdoor temperature.  This is moisture from the wood- not related to it being an open system.   

For the last two weeks I am down to one fire every other day, (wagon of wood).  I'm in Rhode Island , so similar climate.  Thermal storage, Outdoor Reset and not heating domestic hot water is the way to go.  

I typically burn at night when I get home from work- neighbors can't see steam in the dark.


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## 3fordasho (Apr 16, 2021)

Joncombat said:


> Reading articles on this forum and others you get many conflicting opinions about products, warranties and Customer service.  I do not see many articles ore reviews about Polar furnaces.  I compared their warranty and product specs to the cleanfire and the cleanfire came out ahead.  I will keep searching for info on both units or if another option comes up.  I am looking for 170-200+Kbtu's, 250+ gallons of water storage, and indoor installation.  The Garn looked interesting but it is an open system that pisses steam everywhere, this unit will be installed close to some neighbors.  The search continues!



I've never heard that a Garn leaks steam everywhere, at least no more than any other open system.  Now there are some pros and cons to an open system, the cost of water treatment and ongoing water testing being a con to an open system.  Closed (pressurized) systems probably will have a longer life, I just don't know of any that are packaged in an outdoor boiler type package.  I saw enough cons to an open system that both my shop and house systems are closed systems.


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## TCaldwell (Apr 17, 2021)

The “pissing steam all over” is not quite accurate. Upon first water filling or subsequent ones maybe once a year, as the water expands due to the first fire thereafter it will leak out the dedicated overflow tube into a 5 gallon bucket. The steam and water might last 15 minutes out of the first burn after a water refill. This is not unique to the garn, all outdoor unpressurized wood boilers have a vent pipe for the same purpose.


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## E Yoder (Apr 17, 2021)

An open to the atmosphere wood "boiler" should never steam.  If it's running over it was overfilled, which will soon level out and in the future don't fill full while cold. The water will expand as it heats up.  
If it actually steams it's leaking air into the fire and overheating, which needs to be corrected, it's not normal. Usually a leaky gasket or damper flap. I haven't seen mine steam in years, I have it set to shut off at 180F, well below steam.


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## TCaldwell (Apr 17, 2021)

Yoder, your correct on both counts, however when a garn holds 2000 gal water, the thermal expansion will be more, almost insuring a little overflow at startup


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## E Yoder (Apr 17, 2021)

Yes, makes sense.


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## Joncombat (Apr 22, 2021)

jas702 said:


> My Garn 2000 has white smoke (steam) coming out the chimney for the first 10-15 minutes of the burn  depending on outdoor temperature.  This is moisture from the wood- not related to it being an open system.
> 
> For the last two weeks I am down to one fire every other day, (wagon of wood).  I'm in Rhode Island , so similar climate.  Thermal storage, Outdoor Reset and not heating domestic hot water is the way to go.
> 
> I typically burn at night when I get home from work- neighbors can't see steam in the dark.


I plan on heating my hot water with it also.  I believe Garn batch burns like most boilers do.  what happens if you are half way through your wood and all your water is at temperature?  Do the unit shut off or does it dump the heat on a zone so it does not overheat?  

On another note, Heatmaster contacted me and indicated they are retesting in May.  Hopefully their efficiency will be 75% or greater for the tax rebate.


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## 3fordasho (Apr 22, 2021)

Joncombat said:


> I plan on heating my hot water with it also.  I believe Garn batch burns like most boilers do.  what happens if you are half way through your wood and all your water is at temperature?  Do the unit shut off or does it dump the heat on a zone so it does not overheat?



Not sure what a Garn does but my system does the following:
At 190F jacket temp the boiler goes into overheat mode - inducer fan shuts off and primary and secondary inlets shut down but one of the two stays partially open.   Circulator pump stays running and once boiler temp drops a few degrees the boiler will resume normal operation.

If boiler temps continue to climb and jacket temps start to approach 212F there is a thermostatically/mechanically actuated valve that will open and flood the overheat loop built into the boiler with domestic cold water.   

I don't use a dump zone in my system but that is another solution to an overheat situation.


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## Joncombat (Apr 22, 2021)

3fordasho said:


> Not sure what a Garn does but my system does the following:
> At 190F jacket temp the boiler goes into overheat mode - inducer fan shuts off and primary and secondary inlets shut down but one of the two stays partially open.   Circulator pump stays running and once boiler temp drops a few degrees the boiler will resume normal operation.
> 
> If boiler temps continue to climb and jacket temps start to approach 212F there is a thermostatically/mechanically actuated valve that will open and flood the overheat loop built into the boiler with domestic cold water.
> ...


I have a garage and basement slab with radiant heat that I can use as a dump zone.   If you flood the hot boiler with cold water will it crack?  also, if your system is "full" where does the extra water go?   you will need a safe place to dump the hot water.


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## 3fordasho (Apr 22, 2021)

Joncombat said:


> I have a garage and basement slab with radiant heat that I can use as a dump zone.   If you flood the hot boiler with cold water will it crack?  also, if your system is "full" where does the extra water go?   you will need a safe place to dump the hot water.


It doesn't flood the boiler with cold water, there is a dedicated loop of piping in the top of the boiler jacket that is meant for this purpose. 
As far as I know most all euro design boilers are equipped with it.  The valve opens when the high temp is reached, it runs cold water through the loop of internal tubing and then back out to a drain or even dump outside the building.


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## maple1 (Apr 22, 2021)

Joncombat said:


> I have a garage and basement slab with radiant heat that I can use as a dump zone.   If you flood the hot boiler with cold water will it crack?  also, if your system is "full" where does the extra water go?   you will need a safe place to dump the hot water.



I would not do that for a dump zone. One of the main ways for your boiler to overheat is if the power goes out in the middle of a hot burn and your circs stop pumping.  A zone right above the boiler that can convect without a circ running, with a normally open zone valve in between also tied to an aquastat that could also open the ZV on a high temp would be the best approach.


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## S.Whiplash (Apr 22, 2021)

maple1 said:


> I would not do that for a dump zone. One of the main ways for your boiler to overheat is if the power goes out in the middle of a hot burn and your circs stop pumping.  A zone right above the boiler that can convect without a circ running, with a normally open zone valve in between also tied to an aquastat that could also open the ZV on a high temp would be the best approach.




Yes exactly, it's a safety mechanism for dumping heat which equates to pressure, not water.


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## S.Whiplash (Apr 22, 2021)

Joncombat said:


> I plan on heating my hot water with it also.  I believe *Garn batch burns like most boilers do. * *what happens if you are half way through your wood and all your water is at temperature?*  Do the unit shut off or does it dump the heat on a zone so it does not overheat?
> 
> On another note, Heatmaster contacted me and indicated they are retesting in May.  Hopefully their efficiency will be 75% or greater for the tax rebate.



This would be an indication that you miscalculated your wood load in regard to temperature, a mistake most Garn owners only make a few times.  On the front of the Garn is an over-flow tube that will drain hot water back at your feet if it expands too much, if a bucket is handy it can be caught and poured back into the tank once it cools down.  

One misnomer above, I believe the Garn is the only  true batch burner on the market today.   A batch burner is designed to burn through it's entire fuel load without ever damping down the fire, which is by far the most efficient way to burn wood, flat out.  A Garn can do this because it has enough built in thermal storage capacity to absorb all of the energy from the fire at the same rate it is produced.  Other brands only begin to replicate this system by adding exterior thermal storage to a capacity of 1000 gals. or more.


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## maple1 (Apr 23, 2021)

S.Whiplash said:


> This would be an indication that you miscalculated your wood load in regard to temperature, a mistake most Garn owners only make a few times.  On the front of the Garn is an over-flow tube that will drain hot water back at your feet if it expands too much, if a bucket is handy it can be caught and poured back into the tank once it cools down.
> 
> One misnomer above, I believe the Garn is the only  true batch burner on the market today.   A batch burner is designed to burn through it's entire fuel load without ever damping down the fire, which is by far the most efficient way to burn wood, flat out.  A Garn can do this because it has enough built in thermal storage capacity to absorb all of the energy from the fire at the same rate it is produced.  Other brands only begin to replicate this system by adding exterior thermal storage to a capacity of 1000 gals. or more.



Some semantics there. If the installation instructions of one of the other boilers specifically and strictly calls for storage tanks, I'd say it's a batch burner.


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## salecker (Apr 23, 2021)

And if you have storage,then you don't need a dump zone.


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## Case1030 (Apr 23, 2021)

I promised a video.

No bypass damper needed. Soon as you open the door ECM fan kicks to high speed. No smoke at all even in mid burn.

Shows the ignition door and peak of the Vortex chamber.

Edit: The background noise is the garage blower fan. The boiler is very quiet.


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## Case1030 (Apr 24, 2021)

Easy to access turbulators for end of the year maintenance/ cleaning.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 24, 2021)

Looks like a nice unit. Is the Polar like an outdoor gasser in that the thermal storage is built into the appliance?


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## Case1030 (Apr 24, 2021)

SpaceBus said:


> Looks like a nice unit. Is the Polar like an outdoor gasser in that the thermal storage is built into the appliance?



Yes it's an Indoor/Outdoor approved gasser. Very similar to the Froling. It has 200 gallons built in. I'd consider it more of a buffer storage to even out burns cycles. 

In the next few days I'll make an effort to get a cold relight video up demonstrating how great it works. The middle ignition door is a huge benefit. I didn't really know how useful it was until I tried it myself. 

Can do a relight right at the nozzle with kindling and a torch in a few mins. Smokeless after about about 3-5 mins with dry wood. So far quickest light times. I noticed the fan will ramp up  RPM if it feels a blockage at the nozzle.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 25, 2021)

Case1030 said:


> Yes it's an Indoor/Outdoor approved gasser. Very similar to the Froling. It has 200 gallons built in. I'd consider it more of a buffer storage to even out burns cycles.
> 
> In the next few days I'll make an effort to get a cold relight video up demonstrating how great it works. The middle ignition door is a huge benefit. I didn't really know how useful it was until I tried it myself.
> 
> Can do a relight right at the nozzle with kindling and a torch in a few mins. Smokeless after about about 3-5 mins with dry wood. So far quickest light times. I noticed the fan will ramp up  RPM if it feels a blockage at the nozzle.


Someday I'd like to have a heated garage and greenhouse, by that time this will probably be one of the only EPA approved gassers!


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## salecker (Apr 25, 2021)

I doubt that...


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## E Yoder (Apr 26, 2021)

I don't think the epa will squeeze it down to 1 brand of gasser (I think that's what you meant). A bit of pressure makes you innovate. 
Example: Heatmaster redesigned the G series in 2020 and tested and passed. Then spent another year tuning and got even better. The numbers they're getting now would have been considered impossible a few years ago. I'm guessing the other manufacturers are doing the same thing.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 26, 2021)

E Yoder said:


> I don't think the epa will squeeze it down to 1 brand of gasser (I think that's what you meant). A bit of pressure makes you innovate.
> Example: Heatmaster redesigned the G series in 2020 and tested and passed. Then spent another year tuning and got even better. The numbers they're getting now would have been considered impossible a few years ago. I'm guessing the other manufacturers are doing the same thing.


I hope they do continue to innovate, but many do not and simply close their doors.


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## salecker (Apr 26, 2021)

Econoburn was ready to start certification,then covid showed up.
The certification process involved labs in Canada,so that complicates it during these unprecedented times.But as the fearless leeders of our countries always say "we are in this together"


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## Case1030 (Apr 27, 2021)




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## E Yoder (Apr 27, 2021)

To be clear, I'm not advocating for more regulation at all, it will squeeze the smaller guys for sure. Look at car manufacturers in the early-mid 1900's. A slew of names gone. 
My point is we still have cars to drive. There are winners and losers.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 27, 2021)

E Yoder said:


> To be clear, I'm not advocating for more regulation at all, it will squeeze the smaller guys for sure. Look at car manufacturers in the early-mid 1900's. A slew of names gone.
> My point is we still have cars to drive. There are winners and losers.


I am. Cars have only gotten more powerful, more efficient, more comfortable, more reliable, and safer. No longer are cars emitting toxic lead particulates that alleged experts, scientists, and studies all said would just harmlessly fall to the ground. If a company cannot keep pace with regulations then they don't need to stay around. I see a lot of fans of deregulation saying things like "survival of the fittest" but the fittest are the only survivors under new regulations. Wood stove manufacturers were not innovating and coming up with better stoves before regulations came in and forced change.


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## E Yoder (Apr 27, 2021)

Times have changed, improvement is not optional.
What I meant was that I'm not advocating for more regulation further than the current EPA wood heater NSPS. It's pretty tight since 2020.


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## Joncombat (May 2, 2021)

S.Whiplash said:


> This would be an indication that you miscalculated your wood load in regard to temperature, a mistake most Garn owners only make a few times.  On the front of the Garn is an over-flow tube that will drain hot water back at your feet if it expands too much, if a bucket is handy it can be caught and poured back into the tank once it cools down.
> 
> One misnomer above, I believe the Garn is the only  true batch burner on the market today.   A batch burner is designed to burn through it's entire fuel load without ever damping down the fire, which is by far the most efficient way to burn wood, flat out.  A Garn can do this because it has enough built in thermal storage capacity to absorb all of the energy from the fire at the same rate it is produced.  Other brands only begin to replicate this system by adding exterior thermal storage to a capacity of 1000 gals. or more.


my concern is the worst case scenario when you fully load the unit and the water is close to temp.  Trying to find a system that I can load 1-2 times a day and not have to worry


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## maple1 (May 2, 2021)

Joncombat said:


> my concern is the worst case scenario when you fully load the unit and the water is close to temp.  Trying to find a system that I can load 1-2 times a day and not have to worry



If the water is close to temp you don't load. You wait until the water is not hot enough to maintain house temp then you make a new fire.


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## Joncombat (May 3, 2021)

maple1 said:


> If the water is close to temp you don't load. You wait until the water is not hot enough to maintain house temp then you make a new fire.


If your home that would not be a problem.  The issue is when your gone all day you would need to rely on propane.  Purchasing and installing these units is very expensive.  The goal save 85%+ on my heating bills and not have to babysit the boiler.


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## SpaceBus (May 3, 2021)

Joncombat said:


> If your home that would not be a problem.  The issue is when your gone all day you would need to rely on propane.  Purchasing and installing these units is very expensive.  The goal save 85%+ on my heating bills and not have to babysit the boiler.


He is saying to time your fires. If you know the thermal storage will give you X hours of useable heat at Y temperature then you know when to load and how much to burn. There are generally speaking 7,000 BTU/LB of dry wood, no matter the species. This means in the shoulder seasons you load the firebox full of softwoods and in the middle of winter you load it full of hardwoods. If your boiler and storage are sized appropriately and you have the correct type of emitters for your home then you should be fine to load once or twice a day. There are some formulas that you can use to know how big the boiler and storage must be to only load once a day in the coldest part of the year.


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## salecker (May 3, 2021)

Joncombat said:


> If your home that would not be a problem.  The issue is when your gone all day you would need to rely on propane.  Purchasing and installing these units is very expensive.  The goal save 85%+ on my heating bills and not have to babysit the boiler.


With thermal storage you problems are covered.You no longer are a slave to the fire box.
I spend very little time at home when we aren't in a scamdemic. 
Usually i get home at 5 ish and start my fire,charge storage and i am good till next day around 5 ish.
I ussally have projects around the house that keep me busy for the evenings.


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## maple1 (May 3, 2021)

Joncombat said:


> If your home that would not be a problem.  The issue is when your gone all day you would need to rely on propane.  Purchasing and installing these units is very expensive.  The goal save 85%+ on my heating bills and not have to babysit the boiler.



Well, if not home it wouldn't be a problem either. You can't overload your boiler if not there to put wood in.


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## Case1030 (May 3, 2021)

Why not try without storage first... if you feel like you need install it later.

Or bite the bullet and do it all at once. @cumminstinkerer is running an econoburn with open system and thermal storage seems to be working great for him. You can incorporate storage with whatever boiler you choose.

So far haven't had the need for storage yet. I load it in the AM and PM in cold weather. Sholder season I do 1 day loads. 

Remember with storage you will be loading the boiler multiple times (charging the storage) in a day depending on heat requirements... so after a 4 hour charge you load again...


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## cumminstinkerer (May 3, 2021)

@Case1030 right now I get by building a fire every other to every three evenings, run her through about 3 loads and its done, now the last few days we haven't needed any heat at all, but in the next couple days we will need a bit and my house is terrible for heat loss. I fired Saturday afternoon for about 4 hours total and tank was still at 179 when I left this morning, knowing the cool day is coming I will probably fire it tonight just to be safe, otherwise i could make another day or two.


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## Case1030 (May 3, 2021)

That must work great in the shoulder season. Might put some storage in the greenhouse to help when it gets cold out to even the heatload while drawing off it in the shoulder season to get a day or two burns.

In the cold months how many times are you guys with storage loading per day?


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## maple1 (May 3, 2021)

My schedule, roughly, is light a fire late afternoon or just before supper prep of about half a load. Load it full once well established, maybe half hour later? Then reload full again (maybe not quite full depending on hear demand) maybe 3 hours later. That's it. Repeat next day. So say load two loads 4 hours apart. Fire is basically out when I'm heading to bed.


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## cumminstinkerer (May 4, 2021)

I do very similar to @maple1  except I load twice more, but my fire box is small with the boiler only being a 100 btu/hr boiler


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