# OWB selection Central Boiler E-Classic 2300



## JrCRXHF (Apr 28, 2008)

Has anyone used this stove yet?

I have a 1962 3400sqft house that use to be my grand fathers it has 2 fireplaces in it but they are not for heat just looks. I am going to build a 24x32 garage soon and i want to add a outdoor wood burner beside it and heat the house along with the garage. The current furnace is killing me for heat this winter I paid $450-$500 a month for NG alone. I have hot water base board heat now. I have looked at the wood gasification stoves but i really don't want to hold heat in water and i don't want the wood inside the house. I saw on a web site that the E-Classic 2300 was 98% efficient could this be a mis-print.











one fire place




indoor grill.


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## Eric Johnson (Apr 28, 2008)

It's not a misprint. It's a lie.

Overall efficiency (which is the only measurement that counts) is typically below 50% for OWBs and in the 80-90% range for gasifiers. Those are theoretical efficiencies. Actual mileage is usually much lower in most cases, under actual battlefield conditions.

There are a couple of OWB-style gasifiers being introduced, but none has a track record that I'm aware of. Proven gasifier designs can be put into a small shed or other outbuilding, which gives you the advantages of an OWB, but without all the smoke and high wood consumption. Hot water storage is a nice option, but it's not absolutely necessary in most cases.


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## JrCRXHF (Apr 28, 2008)

so what you are saying is that a Gasification boiler will use almost 1/2 the wood of a OWB. But the OWB will be able to burn more "Junk wood" so they both have there cost advantages. How much more is the Gasification boiler then the OWB?


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## Eric Johnson (Apr 28, 2008)

You'll have to do your own pricing research. For some idea of what gasifiers go for, you can click the top banner for Cozy Heat. They list the delivered prices for various models. My guess is that when all is said and done, they're roughly the same, except that you need to build a shed to house a gasifier, and that adds to the cost.

The only "junk" wood you can't burn in a gasifier is green or wet wood. Any wood that is sufficiently dry will burn well. You can burn just about anything in an OWB, but your neighbors will probably call the cops if you do. Your heat output will really suffer with green wood and you'll get an inordinate amount of noxious smoke and creosote if you try to burn it in any boiler.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Apr 29, 2008)

I've never tried to burn 'green' wood in my GreenWood, but it will burn 'wetter' stuff that has laid around and picked up outside water. It will smoke more with that moisture content, and will have a harder time delivering useful heat if the demand happens to be high.

Don't believe anyone that tells you one model can burn 'junk' wood markedly better than the rest. The BTU output comes from the density of the wood. And it consumes BTU's if it has to heat the water in the wood up to the point that it turns to steam to then exit the stack.

Conversely, run properly I believe (based on my observations of other users) you can make an OWB burn realativly smoke free.

Honestly, the effort used up to go collect 'junk' wood is wasted time and effort. As the Tarm guy says, "burn oil until you get better wood".


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## Eric Johnson (Apr 29, 2008)

Jimbo and I spend a lot of otherwise productive time looking at chimneys on our individual travels through New England and Upstate New York, and we tend to agree that OWBs get blamed for a lot of smoke produced by wood stoves, furnaces and indoor boilers. However, we both considered OWBs at various times and wound up buying gasifiers.


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## JrCRXHF (Apr 29, 2008)

I think i am going to go with the EKO 60. I figure it will cost be around $12,000.00 to do the whole project.

Heat the 24x32 garage 
Heat the boiler loop for the house
Heat the hot water tank.

It is about double the cost up front then doing a new NG boiler. But i hope in the long run it will save me money.

Any suggestions on install feel free. I talked to Cozy Heat today for a while they were a great deal of help.


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## muncybob (Apr 29, 2008)

Wow...that was a quick change of mind  Any other reasons that made you go this route other than the above? I must admit I too was thinking OWB but now I'm wrestling with a gassifier either indoor or outdoor. Plenty of $$ reasons to go with indoor but still have not received good WAF.


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## deerhuntrer (Apr 30, 2008)

I burn junk wood in my boiler because its what I have. My neighbors do not complain one bit!! My stack is close to 30 feet in the air.


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## jebatty (Apr 30, 2008)

> ...but still have not received good WAF.



The deal I made to obtain the WAF was to agree that she could keep the house as warm as she wanted to, and I would not complain (we have abundant wood from our own land). The deal was better than gold, WAF is priceless.


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## deerhuntrer (Apr 30, 2008)

Please pardon my stupidity but whats a WAF?


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## jebatty (Apr 30, 2008)

I experienced the same stupidity, and tried Google - worked wonders. WAF = woman or wife appreciation factor.


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## deerhuntrer (Apr 30, 2008)

Gotcha!! That is pretty Ironic. The wife just wants hot water all the time with the OWB. This morning after recieving sooo much rain here, for some reason the furnace ran out of wood (probably cause I didnt fill it last nite I was doing a floor and completely forgot) she wasnt very happy when her usual 15 min shower lasted about 5 min. oops. I played dumb.


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## heaterman (Apr 30, 2008)

The only way an E-Classic could possibly hit 98% is if it were struck by lightning. .........which is what I keep praying happens to the liars that publish crap like that. Call them and ask for the name of the independent lab that came up with that result. You'll find new meaning to the term "wild goose chase". 

Real world test burns show efficiency in the 28-40% range and that's with 20% moisture content in the wood. 

98%........what a hoot If it wasn't so sad that some people actually believe it, it would be comical. I think Central has been reading their own press releases for too long.


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## deerhuntrer (Apr 30, 2008)

I love the OWB. I just think these are not for everyone and depends on what kind of fuel you have to burn. I have a lot of hemlock slabs here wood waste from my woodmill, might as well use them.


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## JrCRXHF (Apr 30, 2008)

Well i think for the city i am going to do the Gasification stove because of the smoke and the amount of wood i need to burn. I have a question how hot does the outside of the stainless steel pipe get just off the back of the stove?


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## Eric Johnson (Apr 30, 2008)

The inside temp of a gasifier is typically around 400 degrees or less, though it can briefly spike up to 600 or 800 at certain points in the burn cycle. The outside temp of single-wall black pipe would be much less, while the outside temp of an insulated, ss chimney would be cool enough to hold your hand on indefinitely.


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## JrCRXHF (Apr 30, 2008)

not as hot as i thought then.


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## Eric Johnson (Apr 30, 2008)

You get temps approaching 2,000 degrees in the gasification chamber. By the time the gas goes through the hx tubes (at least in an EKO), it's down to 300 or 400. The difference represents the heat transferred into the water jacket.

Compare that to OWB firebox temps well below 2,000 and stack temps at times in excess of 1,000 degrees, and you begin to appreciate the difference in technologies and relative efficiencies.


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## deerhuntrer (Apr 30, 2008)

I would not recommend an OWB of these for the city or urban areas. But for a farmer or someone who has access to boatloads of wood, soft or hard I would


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## jebatty (Apr 30, 2008)

One typical way is to use black steel stovepipe from your stove to a ceiling adapter fitting, and that adapter then fits the stainless steel chimney pipe. There likely are adapters for a direct fitting as well.


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## JrCRXHF (Apr 30, 2008)

good to hear because SS pipe is nuts right now
$$$$$


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## antos_ketcham (May 4, 2008)

I have an E-Classic on order to replace my GW 100. I'll let folks know how it goes. 

I am not expecting 98% efficiency, I know that, but looking at the new design improvements, I should be able to beat the traditional OWB output. 

Pete


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## Eric Johnson (May 4, 2008)

I heard that they used a catalytic combustor, but I guess that's not true, at least not according to the cutaway diagram from CB's website.


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## rschoensta (May 4, 2008)

I started a post on the e-classic 2300 saying that I thought it was a viable option for cord wood heating system. 
I have spent the last 2 or 3 months researching wood heat as an alternative to oil.
In particular I am looking for a wood fuel system to heat a 10,000 sf highway garage that uses 5,000 gallons of oil a year. 
I have read hundreds if not thousands of posts here and researched every available option. 
For this particular use it seemed to me that a cord wood boiler was the way to go. 
It further seemed to me that among the available choices the e-classic 2300 was an excellent option. 

In addition to everything else I liked about the e-classic 2300, I liked the fact that it was top of the class in the EPA tests to certify "low emission" owb's.
http://www.epa.gov/woodheaters/models.htm


Other systems I am considering like the Garn have-  for technical reasons in part - not been tested.
Currently it is illegal to sell a Garn in Vermont for this reason. 

I live in New York. 
NY is currently working on regs regulating the sale of OWB's.  
http://www.lungnh.org/atf/cf/{CC909354-D6C7-4B79-859A-768B92C749BD}/NYPart 247.pdf
I took a closer look at these proposed regs when I was writing the original post.
I had assumed that NY would be following the lead of the EPA and Vermont.

That is currently not the case.  
NYS's proposed emissions limits are much stricter than either Vermont's or the EPA's if I am reading this correctly.
The grams per hour limit is 7.5.
The maximum limit of any test run is 15 grams per hour.

Of all the systems tested and approved by the EPA only the central boilers meet or exceed the first test.
Only the E2300 exceeds it. 
None of the tested boilers meet the second test. 

Unless the proposed regs are changed or the boilers improved, this indicates to me that no current OWB will be able to be legally sold in NYS when these regulations are adopted.

It should be noted that in Washington State the standards are even stricter - so much so that the Greenwood gasification boiler - which is made in the state - cannot currently be sold there. 
Nor can any OWB.


Also it should be noted that the NYS proposed regs apply only to OWB's not to in the house wood boilers.

----(12) ‘Outdoor wood boiler’. A fuel burning device (a) designed to burn wood or other
approved fuels; (b) that the manufacturer specifies for outdoor installation or installation in structures
not normally occupied by humans; and (c) that is used to heat building space and/or water via the
distribution, typically through pipes, of a gas or liquid (e.g., water or water/antifreeze mixture) heated in
the device. ----------

Complicates the decision making.


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## Eric Johnson (May 4, 2008)

Have you seen the E-Classic working, coalman?

I may get a chance next week at the NEFP Expo in Essex Jct., VT if they fire up the demo unit. Hard to tell much without a load on it, of course, but I'm interested in how they achieve the secondary combustion.


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## jebatty (May 4, 2008)

Part of this makes common sense, and part, like so much regulation, is driven by a mission by some to eliminate competition from others, all in the name of health, safety, etc. Where this regulation falls I do not know. At the same time, it does not make sense to me that individuals should be given a free ticket to spew smoke and ash into the air. The key is a balance.

I had the opportunity about a month ago to deliver a presentation of wood gasification boiler to a county alternative energy group, at which a rep of the MN PCA was present. I tried to carefully make the point that all wood burning appliances are not the same, and care must be taken in any future regulation not to paint with too broad a brush. I think the rep was impressed by the video I showed, along with other info.


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## antos_ketcham (May 4, 2008)

There is no cat in the E-Classic. It down drafts to a secondary combustion chamber in order to scrub the emissions. There is a bypass damper which opens to the stack directly when you are loading. When you close the door you also close the bypass and the emissions are then forced down through the secondary chamber. 

Pete


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## intc97 (May 4, 2008)

I saw this stove about one month ago. My neighbor over the border in Canada sells Central Boilers and he had one of the first ones. The things I didn't like was:
                                    1) The smaller firebox
                                    2) The price he quoted was around $10,000
                                    3) There were alot of sensors to operate the downdraft cycle( solenoid switches)and it is new technology
                                    4) It only came in one size
                                    5) Limited warennty
He told me he was afraid all the new regulations might limit his sales of oldrt OWB's and this one would meet the nerw regulations.


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## solarguy (May 4, 2008)

Central claims 98% efficiency. I think they are talking about combustion, not thermal. I'd bet the thermal efficiency doesn't get above 60% . OWB's by their very nature hold too much water therefore they will never achieve the thermal efficiency of a low mass boiler. With their new design, you'll need to brush out the heat exchanger tubes constantly, you'll have a big pile of creoste to dispose of.  
After 7 years of using one of those OWB wood eating monsters, I wouldn't give you a bucket of horse piss for one of them.
Now, let me tell you how I really feel


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## deerhuntrer (May 5, 2008)

I like horse piss


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## antos_ketcham (May 5, 2008)

FWIW - When I looked at the unit myself I found the following - 

1) Yes, the firebox is smaller when compared to the traditional model in that size. That said, it can still take wood up to 36" long

2) That price would seem to include a mark-up, tax, or both - he was in Canada right? GST tax? That price seems high compared to what I am seeing in VT.

3) I saw one solenoid - just like the old CB. What are the other ones you saw for?

4) True - only one size now, but they are coming out with a smaller one. 

5) More limited than the traditional? I thought I saw 20 years. 

Anyway, this is an interesting discussion. I will post pics. when I get mine up and running. 

Pete




			
				North Border Homestead said:
			
		

> I saw this stove about one month ago. My neighbor over the border in Canada sells Central Boilers and he had one of the first ones. The things I didn't like was:
> 1) The smaller firebox
> 2) The price he quoted was around $10,000
> 3) There were alot of sensors to operate the downdraft cycle( solenoid switches)and it is new technology
> ...


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## solarguy (May 5, 2008)

Darren,

You're in a different situation than most OWB users. You have an abundant supply of slab wood from your sawmill, you're located up in God's country & there's probably no neighbors close by to raise hell with you. 
This is not typical for the average OWB user & the line of BS they are fed from the sales force.

My point is the OWB's do consume twice the wood when compared to a gasifier, lay down a 1000 times more smoke & are not efficient from a thermal point of view. I loved mine when we had a ton of pine tops left over from a couple of logging operations but after I had to start harvesting timber to feed the thing, a couple of years later I wanted to put a bullet in my head.
I've used both indoor & outdoor boilers for the last 14 years, I've gone back to an indoor boiler for a reason.

Bob


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## heaterman (May 5, 2008)

After seeing the difference between what Central claims about their products and then how they actually perform in the field, I don't believe anything that company says. I wouldn't buy anything with that brand on it. I don't sell them but I do wind up trying to help a lot of people having problems with them. The product itself is mediocre in terms of performance and efficiency but the main thing is that the company basically promises the moon and people are disappointed when it doesn't deliver. It burns wood, puts about 30-40% of the heat into the water and that my friends is it. It's not magic.  

The thing that most people don't realize is how efficiency is calculated. System efficiency is the product of combustion efficiency times transfer efficiency. In other words you may very well have a boiler that hits 90% combustion efficiency but it's heat transfer is only 55%. This gives you a net efficiency of 49.5%.  The heat transfer efficiency of nearly all the OWB's that I have seen test data on usually falls between 30-40%, so even if you have a combustion efficiency of 90% you're only capturing around 32% of the heat available in the wood.  NoFossil ran into this with during detailed measurements on his EKO. He came up with overall numbers in the 50% range if I recall. Those would be correct except for including jacket losses into his conditioned space.  

Just as a note. Eric mentioned a while back that the Garn crowd is a cult. They are a cult for a good reason. Garn's system efficiency numbers are in the 75-80% range. Far above anything else that I have seen specs on from an independent lab. Their combustion efficiency is 90-92% same as anyone else's but their transfer efficiency is in the 85% range. System efficiency is 76.5%.  Nothing else is even close to that. You simply can't beat massive heat exchanger surface and dwell time along with a totally submerged firebox. You have to burn one to believe it.

Now I'm totally off track here....................Sorry for derailing the thread


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## Eric Johnson (May 5, 2008)

Hope I didn't offend anyone with my "cult" comment. I haven't seen TCaldwell or Garnification around in awhile, so now I'm wondering.


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## JrCRXHF (May 5, 2008)

This is all good information.

We are all looking for one thing the cheap way to heat our houses.

How much more does a Garn run then a EKO or biomax. I have watched a video of it running i was impressed the only down side is that it takes a up a great deal of space.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (May 5, 2008)

heaterman said:
			
		

> The thing that most people don't realize is how efficiency is calculated. System efficiency is the product of combustion efficiency times transfer efficiency. In other words you may very well have a boiler that hits 90% combustion efficiency but it's heat transfer is only 55%. This gives you a net efficiency of 49.5%.  The heat transfer efficiency of nearly all the OWB's that I have seen test data on usually falls between 30-40%, so even if you have a combustion efficiency of 90% you're only capturing around 32% of the heat available in the wood.



Dude, I know you're one of the 'sperts here. . .but . . . you sure about where the efficiencies are and are not in these units? I am pretty sure that OWB's like the CB are good in the heat transfer efficiency dept (nearly every bit of heat from the fire gets into the water because of the large surface area of the water in direct contact with the fire) but piss-poor in the combustion efficiency dept (Fire never burns hot because of all that water surface area)? Or did I miss something?


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (May 5, 2008)

Pete Antos-Ketcham said:
			
		

> I have an E-Classic on order to replace my GW 100. I'll let folks know how it goes.
> 
> I am not expecting 98% efficiency, I know that, but looking at the new design improvements, I should be able to beat the traditional OWB output.
> 
> Pete



How long have you had your GW100? Why are you replacing it?

Jimbo


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## Eric Johnson (May 5, 2008)

I think your typical OWB flunks in both categories. You have smoke and high stack temps, which suggests to me that they're getting incomplete combustion and a lot of heat is not recovered and going up the stack and into the atmosphere.

Anyway, the E-Classic looks to me like a downdraft gasifier, which means it ought to have higher efficiencies than CB's standard OWB models. That's if it works under actual battlefield conditions, which obviously remains to be seen.


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## deerhuntrer (May 5, 2008)

Solarguy,
U R right. OWB are not for everyone and yes they do use alot of wood. You are correct. I agree they are not for use in urban areas or even suburban. But we here are under attack from leftwing environmentalists, and these OWB do no harm to anyone here. 
I actually would like to ask you some pionters on Solar energy as we are looking to try to get off the grid (as much as we can) and we have been researchiing solar but I am a newbie. Can U help?


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## heaterman (May 5, 2008)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> heaterman said:
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> 
> ...



Not really. The ratio of btu input to surface area of the HX (usually well insulated with creosote) is not all that good. If they were transferring the heat well, I wouldn't see stack temps of 800*+ during full burn. If there was a btu load of 100K worth of wood surrounded by 30 sq ft of HX surface, common in a lot of OWB's, that would enable fairly decent transfer numbers. The problem is that most operators are ramming all the wood they can into the unit which effectively lowers that ratio by raising the btu input of the burn. When the aquastat satisfies and the fire "goes to sleep", so does the combustion efficiency. So with a typical OWB you're either  getting killed on the combustion side or the transfer side. 

Hope that made some sense.


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## heaterman (May 5, 2008)

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> Hope I didn't offend anyone with my "cult" comment. I haven't seen TCaldwell or Garnification around in awhile, so now I'm wondering.



None taken by me my good man. I have to confess I get a little sideways when talking about Garn's but I try to stay objective and truthful in my comments.


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## JrCRXHF (May 5, 2008)

heaterman said:
			
		

> Eric Johnson said:
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> 
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how much do the garns cost?


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## intc97 (May 5, 2008)

When I looked at the stove, he told me there were 5 solenoids. He may have been mistaken since he just got the stove in and they hadn't been out that long. Not sure of the mark up being in Canada . I thought for that price, I would be better off putting a gassification boiler in an outbuilding and have a storage tank in my basement. I'm going to a show this Friday and hopefully will be able to see alot of OWB and gassification stoves. One of my neighbors has a Tarn and storage tank and loves it. I'm getting alittle nervious living in NY with all the laws that I'm hearing about. Let me know when you get your stove.


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## antos_ketcham (May 6, 2008)

I have had the GW 100 for one season. I am replacing it for a couple of reasons. 

1) Creosote- without storage, and I have no room for storage, my unit is making a lot of creosote. I am cleaning the chimney every other week and have had a couple of mini fires in the chimney. I can see creosote all over the hx pipes in the upper part of the boiler so I can only imagine what the back may look like - probably something like Dkerley's pictures of his when he opened his up. I also get creosote laden liquid that drips out of my pipe and the furnace onto the floor and stains it. And here is the crazy part - I am burning hot. I have a flue gas probe in my pipe and it registers in the clean burn zone when the unit is running. Now that said, I am closed down most of the time and then it is not. Without storage, my damper is mostly closed. 

2) Lack of access for cleaning - without an easy access panel, I would have to undo all of my plumbing and then figure out a way to move the beast so I can get at the back to open it up and clean it. That is way too much work and expense. I consider the lack of a side access panel for cleaning and inspection a design flaw. 

3) Not Weatherproof - not being weatherproof means it needs to be in a small building. What this has meant for me is that I generally feel like my lungs have been through a cheese grader after loading the thing. Smoke rolls out the door and fills the boiler room and my lungs. This is likely not good for me. 

I believe if I had storage all but issue number 2 would be moot. But I don't have the space and my wife says "no more outbuildings", so, I am switching to the CB E-Classic.

Pete 






			
				ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> Pete Antos-Ketcham said:
> 
> 
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## antos_ketcham (May 6, 2008)

The new E-Classic will be at the Expo later this week. Greg Beliveau from Goose Creek Farms is the local dealer and he'll have a booth. Is this the show you are going to? 

I will let you know how it goes with the new stove. 

Pete



			
				North Border Homestead said:
			
		

> When I looked at the stove, he told me there were 5 solenoids. He may have been mistaken since he just got the stove in and they hadn't been out that long. Not sure of the mark up being in Canada . I thought for that price, I would be better off putting a gassification boiler in an outbuilding and have a storage tank in my basement. I'm going to a show this Friday and hopefully will be able to see alot of OWB and gassification stoves. One of my neighbors has a Tarn and storage tank and loves it. I'm getting alittle nervious living in NY with all the laws that I'm hearing about. Let me know when you get your stove.


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## heaterman (May 6, 2008)

Just out of curiosity Jr. What price were you quoted for the E-Classic?

Also, what are you planning to do for storage on the EKO?


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (May 6, 2008)

Pete:
My hat's off to a guy that can buy a new wood fired hydronic every year.

When I pulled my pipe apart for cleaning last month (first time since October 2007) I found very little creosote. I found considerable ash still in the unit, right below the pipe opening. Honestly, I just reached in a removed it handful at a time, but if I'd had the time, I would have taken the ShopVac to it.

I think storage (maybe even a buffer tank) would make it easier to run clean, but, IN THEORY, if you size the unit properly, then load properly, idleing should be minimized. And when the damper opens, what little creosote has accumulated should burn off.

Jimbo


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (May 6, 2008)

heaterman said:
			
		

> Not really. The ratio of btu input to surface area of the HX (usually well insulated with creosote) is not all that good. If they were transferring the heat well, I wouldn't see stack temps of 800*+ during full burn. If there was a btu load of 100K worth of wood surrounded by 30 sq ft of HX surface, common in a lot of OWB's, that would enable fairly decent transfer numbers. The problem is that most operators are ramming all the wood they can into the unit which effectively lowers that ratio by raising the btu input of the burn. When the aquastat satisfies and the fire "goes to sleep", so does the combustion efficiency. So with a typical OWB you're either  getting killed on the combustion side or the transfer side.
> 
> Hope that made some sense.



Makes perfect sense. 

Though I think my GW100 can be run efficiently and VSF, it requires the proper load for the situation. If we could reduce the load cycle (and all it's inputs) to an algorithim, every appliance could run virtually VSF.

Jimbo


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## JrCRXHF (May 6, 2008)

heaterman said:
			
		

> Just out of curiosity Jr. What price were you quoted for the E-Classic?
> 
> Also, what are you planning to do for storage on the EKO?



The E-Classic was $8,550

For storage i was going to do 8" Block box 6ft x 3ft x 3ft and then put a plastic liner in it  along with insulation and have my feed and return on the top with 2 40 plate heat exchangers so that the water system would not be pressured and would not effect the water in the boiler or the house loop.

I am also thinking about the BioMax


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## termv (May 6, 2008)

I see the CB E Classic has a 450 Gallon water capacity.  Is that high compared to traditional OWBs?  
Never mind, I just found the specs on similar sized units.


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## uppercanadatree (May 7, 2008)

If you are on the fence between a owb and a gasifier, Empyre in Canada has come out with a owb based on gasifier technology.  It can be placed outside like any owb or in any building.  I've heard that the emissions from the stack are lower than even the Greenwood and that Greenwood has bought the patent for that stove.  It is called the Empyre Clean Burn (ECB)  I recently saw it operating at a trade show, and there was barely a hint of smoke coming from the chimney.  I think their web address is www.profab.org  Last time I checked, there wasn't much on the ECB on the site as I was told that Greenwood would post the updated info on their website.


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## antos_ketcham (May 7, 2008)

At the cost of these things - this will indeed be the last purchase. But as I rationalized it to my wife, wood boilers are a major investment and you need to be happy with the product because you will have it for a long time. I used the same line when I got my pickup 

Pete





			
				ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> Pete:
> My hat's off to a guy that can buy a new wood fired hydronic every year.
> 
> When I pulled my pipe apart for cleaning last month (first time since October 2007) I found very little creosote. I found considerable ash still in the unit, right below the pipe opening. Honestly, I just reached in a removed it handful at a time, but if I'd had the time, I would have taken the ShopVac to it.
> ...


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