# practices in re-wiring kitchen for remodel



## RustyShackleford (Feb 9, 2016)

Doing a kitchen remodel, I've having to move the electrics around quite a bit.  Most of the Romex goes up into the attic.  A couple of questions:

1. I have Romex going thru holes in the wall top-plate which are dutifully caulked with regular latex caulk (not firestop).   The stuff is pretty tough.   Is it ok to pull really hard on the Romex to get it out, assuming I'll pulling straight and not at a angle ?  Any hints on softening up or removing the caulk ?

2. If any of the Romex is not long enough to reach the new location of its box, is it cool to splice it (in a new box) in the attic ?  Or would that be considered bad form and I really ought to make new runs to the breaker box (which is at the same end of the house).

Thanks.


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## Zkx14 (Feb 9, 2016)

Sounds like you know most of the answer... Romex can handle a lot of pull, but not hard or repeated bending.  Boxed splices are 'OK', but definitly not preffered, and MUST remain accessible.  what size is in there?  If 15A / 14ga, I would be taking the opportunity to upgrade to 20A/12ga.  Just be sure to do the entire circuit before upsizing a breaker.
      If the holes were drilled straight and smooth, or if not filled through, you might pull up on the wire and pop the cork. More likely, you will need to dig out as much caulk as you can.  A small, old/blunt screwdriver works.   maybe drill small holes around the caulk.


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## EatenByLimestone (Feb 9, 2016)

Or you can the wire close to the 2x and drill a new hole for a new wire.  Sometimes the frustration isn't worth it.


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## RustyShackleford (Feb 9, 2016)

EatenByLimestone said:


> Or you can the wire close to the 2x and drill a new hole for a new wire.  Sometimes the frustration isn't worth it.


Say what ?


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## Zkx14 (Feb 9, 2016)

RustyShackleford said:


> Say what ?


If you decide to replace a wire.  Just cut the old one where it goes through the goop and drill a new hole


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## EatenByLimestone (Feb 11, 2016)

Zkx14 said:


> If you decide to replace a wire.  Just cut the old one where it goes through the goop and drill a new hole




This.  Sorry if I wasn't clear.  Doing this could shorten the job by hours.  Wire isn't as cheap as it used to be, but still isn't real expensive.


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## DougA (Feb 11, 2016)

I was rewiring a bathroom in my daughter's house a few months back and spent an hour fishing a wire through 5 ft of wall. Finally put a camera in the hole to help guide it past all the pipes. It kept getting stuck on a piece of lath that was sticking out inside the wall. It can get very frustrating.


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## RustyShackleford (Feb 11, 2016)

EatenByLimestone said:


> This.  Sorry if I wasn't clear.  Doing this could shorten the job by hours.  Wire isn't as cheap as it used to be, but still isn't real expensive.


I guess I wasn't clear either.   I'm not trying to replace wires (they are in good shape, house 30 years old).  I am moving electrical boxes as part of a remodel.   By recovering the entire wire from the old box (which means trying to retrieve it through the caulked hole), I stand a chance of simply re-routing the wire to the new box location (depending upon where it is relative to the old location).

But now I think on it, 30 years isn't really that young either, and Romex really isn't that expesnsive in the grand scheme.   So maybe I _should_ just start over - with a new run from the breaker box.


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## EatenByLimestone (Feb 11, 2016)

I can't imagine you'd regret the outlets being on new circuits.  Kitchen appliances use lots of powert and you can be sure that new ones are gfi protected.


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## venator260 (Feb 16, 2016)

If it were my kitchen, I would study the latest NEC as it applies to kitchens, rip it all out and rewire. That way you're sure that everything is right and up to your current usage, and you'll never have to touch it again. 

I plan to do this to my kitchen that was rewired in 1986.


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## Buzz Saw (Feb 23, 2016)

Romex is cheap now compared to 8 years ago.  1000' 12-2 $200ish.


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## RustyShackleford (Feb 24, 2016)

Buzz Saw said:


> Romex is cheap now compared to 8 years ago.  1000' 12-2 $200ish.


Yeah, and it's mostly 14-2 anyhow, and I probably have enough 12-2 lying around from other recent project to not buy any of that anyhow.   Especially since the kitchen is within 10-20ft of the breaker box and all routing accessible from a single attic, it's probably no more trouble to run new lines that to try to get the stuff out of the caulked holes.


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## hockeypuck (Feb 24, 2016)

Two separate circuits for your countertop outlets  (12-2, 20 amp).  One for the refridge, one for the dishwaser.  Put the dishwasher one under the sink cabinet (if it is located next to the dishwasher).  Outlet has to be accessible to service the dish washer properly. One separate one for the microwave (good practice).  5 outlet/appliance circuits was a minimum when we used to do new homes.  Microwaves and toasters on the same circuit spell trouble.


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## RustyShackleford (Feb 25, 2016)

RustyShackleford said:


> I have Romex going thru holes in the wall top-plate which are dutifully caulked with regular latex caulk (not firestop).   The stuff is pretty tough.  ... Any hints on softening up or removing the caulk ?


Went up in the attic with a tea kettle of near-boiling water and a horse syringe.    Squirted a syringe-full of the water into each top-plate hole.   Worked like a charm.

I'll probably end up using a lot of new Romex, but I hate to cut off an existing piece and possibly wish I hadn't later.


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## EatenByLimestone (Feb 26, 2016)

[LTE="RustyShackleford, post: 2063374, member: 9345"]Went up in the attic with a tea kettle of near-boiling water and a horse syringe.    Squirted a syringe-full of the water into each top-plate hole.   Worked like a charm.

I'll probably end up using a lot of new Romex, but I hate to cut off an existing piece and possibly wish I hadn't later.[/QUOTE]



I'll have to store that idea for future use!


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## RustyShackleford (Feb 26, 2016)

RustyShackleford said:


> Went up in the attic with a tea kettle of near-boiling water and a horse syringe.    Squirted a syringe-full of the water into each top-plate hole.   Worked like a charm.


By the way, I should remark that it's generally considered a bad idea to get Romex wet - mainly, you don't want water to get inside the outer sheath, especially if there's paper packing in there.   The way I did this - pouring water into the tops of the holes in the framing, and then pulling the wires out from the top with the opening in the sheath pointing downwards, and the whole process taking less than a minute - should mitigate such concerns.

Also, note I was dealing with latex caulk.  Other types of caulk, particularly "fire stop" caulk, may not work as well.


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## Beer Belly (Feb 26, 2016)

hockeypuck said:


> Two separate circuits for your countertop outlets  (12-2, 20 amp).  One for the refridge, one for the dishwaser.  Put the dishwasher one under the sink cabinet (if it is located next to the dishwasher).  Outlet has to be accessible to service the dish washer properly. One separate one for the microwave (good practice).  5 outlet/appliance circuits was a minimum when we used to do new homes.  Microwaves and toasters on the same circuit spell trouble.


We did the same, and did  homerun with the Microwave. The Stove was Hardwired, we changed it to an outlet....just makes things easier in the long run


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## RustyShackleford (Aug 12, 2016)

hockeypuck said:


> Two separate circuits for your countertop outlets  (12-2, 20 amp).  One for the refridge, one for the dishwaser.  Put the dishwasher one under the sink cabinet (if it is located next to the dishwasher).  Outlet has to be accessible to service the dish washer properly. One separate one for the microwave (good practice).  5 outlet/appliance circuits was a minimum when we used to do new homes.  Microwaves and toasters on the same circuit spell trouble.


I'm a little perplexed by the usual advice to put fridge on a dedicated circuit.  Previously (before this remodel) a single 20amp circuit powered the fridge and microwave, plus a rarely used wall outlet. Without any issues whatsoever.   And aren't modern refrigerators way more efficient than old (in my case, 28 years) ones ?    But maybe their peak usage (e.g. defrost cycles) is as high or higher ?


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## Buzz Saw (Aug 12, 2016)

You're in it that far run the extra circuits. It's cheap and easy now, I would not cheap out with all the other work being done.

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## RustyShackleford (Aug 12, 2016)

Buzz Saw said:


> You're in it that far run the extra circuits. It's cheap and easy now, I would not cheap out with all the other work being done.


Just curious.    But with "space saver" breakers, plenty more room in the load center.


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## RustyShackleford (Aug 12, 2016)

I'm also trying to figure out the wiring for the new range; it is a "dual fuel" unit with gas burners and two ovens (one big and one small).   The installation manual seems very wishy-washy to me, and I wonder if anyone here can make more sense of it:

http://www.kitchenaid.com/digitalassets/KFDD500ESS/Installation Instruction_EN.pdf

It does not even have the model number of the unit (KFDD500ESS) on it (although it is in the URL).   If you go to page 6, it kinda says you need 40 amps and kinda says you need 50 amps.   And the kilowatt ratings are pretty out of kilter (with the amperage times the voltage).   And what's up with mentioning 120v ?    About the only definitive statement is that the power cord is rated for 40 amps and 240vac.   So I guess that's my answer, but I still can't quite decipher all the other stuff.

I telephoned KA, and when I told them I didn't have the appliance in hand (to look at the serial-number plate on the back of it) and wanted to be able to do the wiring beforehand, they were flabbergasted.   They then attempted to connect me with "trade, who might know more" and I was promptly disconnected.   Frustrating.


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## Buzz Saw (Aug 12, 2016)

RustyShackleford said:


> I'm also trying to figure out the wiring for the new range; it is a "dual fuel" unit with gas burners and two ovens (one big and one small).   The installation manual seems very wishy-washy to me, and I wonder if anyone here can make more sense of it:
> 
> http://www.kitchenaid.com/digitalassets/KFDD500ESS/Installation Instruction_EN.pdf
> 
> ...


Wire it up for 50amp service. I believe that's 6 gauge copper wire.  You will need to use a cable with 4 wires.  Two hots wires, neutral, and a ground.

The 120v is probably referencing the light bulb & controls.  The neutral is needed to properly use 120v.

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## fbelec (Aug 13, 2016)

by code you won't be able to use those half breakers for your kitchen. all new wiring has to be arc fault breakers or mc cable instead of romex. the refridge are efficient except when the go into the defrost cycle. all wiring but lights in a kitchen has to be 12 ga and the counter outlets can go no where but the counters. circuit for microwave can only have it and the inspectors ok the extra outlet for a gas stove if there is to be one. the circuit for the dishwasher can only have itself and maybe a small disposal nothing else. so you'll be stuck doing five arc fault and also gfi for any outlet in the kitchen. you can use gfi outlets or the combo arc fault gfi breakers if you outlet the dishwasher it will need a gfi also.


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## Buzz Saw (Aug 13, 2016)

fbelec said:


> by code you won't be able to use those half breakers for your kitchen. all new wiring has to be arc fault breakers or mc cable instead of romex. the refridge are efficient except when the go into the defrost cycle. all wiring but lights in a kitchen has to be 12 ga and the counter outlets can go no where but the counters. circuit for microwave can only have it and the inspectors ok the extra outlet for a gas stove if there is to be one. the circuit for the dishwasher can only have itself and maybe a small disposal nothing else. so you'll be stuck doing five arc fault and also gfi for any outlet in the kitchen. you can use gfi outlets or the combo arc fault gfi breakers if you outlet the dishwasher it will need a gfi also.


Who's code, NEC or local?

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## RustyShackleford (Aug 13, 2016)

Buzz Saw said:


> Who's code, NEC or local?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


No code.   This will not be inspected.   Of course I want to do it the "right way", but I'm not going to obsess over code.  But code would be NEC.

I plan to have (more or less re-use) two existing GFCI protected 20amp circuits for countertop.   Plus a third for a wet bar (electric kettle, coffee mill, etc).  Dedicated 15-or 20-amp circuits (at my convenience, per existing wiring) for dishwasher, microwave, refrigerator.    A 40 or 50 amp circuit for the range (hence my question above, since the installation manual is so confusing on this).    Modern refrigerators and microwaves do not require 20 amps, in fact the installation manuals for the ones I'm using say a 15- or 20-amp circuit is "required" and a "dedicated" circuit is recommended.

I think that's more or less to code, except for the arc-fault business.   Since none of the rest of the house is arc-fault, I'm not going to worry about it.


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## hockeypuck (Aug 13, 2016)

RustyShackleford said:


> I'm a little perplexed by the usual advice to put fridge on a dedicated circuit.  Previously (before this remodel) a single 20amp circuit powered the fridge and microwave, plus a rarely used wall outlet. Without any issues whatsoever.   And aren't modern refrigerators way more efficient than old (in my case, 28 years) ones ?    But maybe their peak usage (e.g. defrost cycles) is as high or higher ?



Motor compressors in refrigerators can draw 4 to 5 x the current at start up..Your microwave will also have an initial start up draw.  Run the micorwave...and the fridge decides to start.. starve the start up motor for current.. .could lead to premature failure or other electronic circuit issues.. why take the chance.. Just my opinion.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 13, 2016)

I always put the fridge on a dedicated circuit. Even if its a 15 amp circuit.  Also i try to install at least 2 seperate 20 amp  counter top circuits as a lot of high drain appliances get put there such as Coffee maker 1500 watts, toaster ovens 1000- 1500 watts ,microwaves and convection microwaves 800-1500 watts. You just dont want 2 of these things going at once on the same circuit.


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## RustyShackleford (Aug 13, 2016)

hockeypuck said:


> Motor compressors in refrigerators can draw 4 to 5 x the current at start up..Your microwave will also have an initial start up draw.  Run the micorwave...and the fridge decides to start...


Sure.  But over the last 28 years, the breaker has never flipped.   Maybe the fridge compressor has never started-up while the microwave is running, or at least coincident with the microwave starting.

But like I said, I'll have separate circuits for dishwasher, fridge, microwave.  Also three 20amp circuits for countertops, even though I won't have a toaster oven, since that KA range includes one (sorta, it's second oven, which is small); still lots of high-draw stuff on the countertops though, like electric kettle, coffee mill, rice cooker.   But, there's a good chance the fridge circuit will be 15 amps, which the manual seems to say is totally ok.


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## hockeypuck (Aug 13, 2016)

RustyShackleford said:


> Sure.  But over the last 28 years, the breaker has never flipped.   Maybe the fridge compressor has never started-up while the microwave is running, or at least coincident with the microwave starting.
> 
> But like I said, I'll have separate circuits for dishwasher, fridge, microwave.  Also three 20amp circuits for countertops, even though I won't have a toaster oven, since that KA range includes one (sorta, it's second oven, which is small); still lots of high-draw stuff on the countertops though, like electric kettle, coffee mill, rice cooker.   But, there's a good chance the fridge circuit will be 15 amps, which the manual seems to say is totally ok.


Circuit breakers do not trip instantaneously at their rated current... it does not matter..you ran the circuit.

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## RustyShackleford (Aug 13, 2016)

hockeypuck said:


> it does not matter..you ran the circuit.


I don't take your meaning.


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## jebatty (Aug 14, 2016)

20 years have passed since my kitchen re-do. Separate 15A circuits for refrigerator and dishwasher, a 20A plug-in outlet box circuit for the microwave which can take additional appliances when the microwave is not used, 3 counter-top plug-in outlet boxes sharing a 20A circuit, and a 4 outlet box sharing 2 - 15A circuits on the counter-top. Besides the microwave, the only appliance regularly used on the counter-top is the toaster, plugged into a shared 20A outlet box. The other high amperage counter-top appliances are used occasionally and are the electric fry pan/griddle, which uses one of the 15A outlets and the blender which uses the 20A circuit shared with the toaster. 

The 4-outlet box 15A circuits also is populated with wallwart transformers for small DC powered devices and has been very useful in this regard.


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## EatenByLimestone (Aug 14, 2016)

RustyShackleford said:


> I don't take your meaning.



I think they are trying to say, Just because it worked doesn't mean it was a really good idea."


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 14, 2016)

I deal with new 15 amp outlet circuits on a regular basis that get very warm with only a 10 amp draw and nothing else on the same circuit. Mostly window air conditioners. Sometimes installing a HD 20 amp outlet keeps it cool ,sometimes just swapping out the older appliance. My outlets used to get overly warm with loads of xmas lights going,solved that by switching to LED.


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## RustyShackleford (Aug 14, 2016)

EatenByLimestone said:


> I think they are trying to say, Just because it worked doesn't mean it was a really good idea."


Thanks for explaining.   I'm getting sort of a general tone of "you're half-assing it" in this thread, not an accusation I'm used to hearing.   Or maybe I'm just being paranoid.

It seems to me the only thing I'm doing (or not doing), that could be argued with, is that I'll probably give the fridge only a 15amp circuit.   Otherwise I'll have three 20amp countertop circuits (including a wet bar), and even so, I'll have neither a microwave nor a toaster oven on my countertops (the microwave will be included in a hood/microwave combo with its own circuit, and there'll be no toaster oven since the range includes a second small oven).   Then I'll have a dedicated 20 amp circuit for the microwave/hood, and a dedicated 15 amp circuit for the fridge.   The dishwasher already has a 20amp dedicated circuit (it's not moving in the remodel).    

I'm pretty comfortable with only 15amps for the fridge.   I'm doing that (instead of 20 amps) because it's convenient with the existing wiring.   The fridge instructions "require" a 15 or 20 amp circuit and a dedicated circuit is "recommended" (with no suggestion that it be 20 amps instead of 15 amps).

If anyone thinks any of this is cutting corners, please explain again - I'd seriously appreciate it.


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## begreen (Aug 14, 2016)

RustyShackleford said:


> I'm pretty comfortable with only 15amps for the fridge.



The question is - why? I would only put in 20 amp circuits for a kitchen. The only 15 amp circuits I would put in would be for lighting. It's the same amount of work  and almost the same price to wire it up for 20 amps. Then if there are later remodels or layout changes then the 20 amp circuit may get repurposed.


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## RustyShackleford (Aug 14, 2016)

begreen said:


> The question is - why?  ...  It's the same amount of work ...


Actually not.   There's a piece of 14ga Romex in the attic already wired to a breaker, that's currently unused; all I gotta do is drill a hole in the top plate and poke it down.   Running 12ga back to the panel is a bigger pain.   Gotta drill new hole in the top plate above the panel (which is already saturated with holes), and find another clamp with free space going into the panel.   Or remove the old Romex (which is caulked into place).

So maybe I am being half-assed on that.   But its look like a modern energy-efficient fridge draws less than 2 amps when the compressor is running and maybe 5-6 amps during defrost.   Yes, the compressor causes a surge when it starts, but that's definitely not going to pop that 15 amp breaker (since they unequivocally state that a 15 amp circuit is acceptable), nor does it risk overheating the wire, since it's so brief.   So it seems pretty reasonable to me.

Also, and maybe somebody can enlighten me here, I'm befuddled about what to do with a piece of Romex that's going into the panel that I no longer use.   Easy enough to remove the hot wire from the breaker.   But the ground is all twisted up with the other grounds  - maybe that's the way they do it when they first wire a house ?    Just clip the ground off where it's rolled into a bunch of others and then pull the rest out ?


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## hockeypuck (Aug 14, 2016)

RustyShackleford said:


> Actually not.   There's a piece of 14ga Romex in the attic already wired to a breaker, that's currently unused; all I gotta do is drill a hole in the top plate and poke it down.   Running 12ga back to the panel is a bigger pain.   Gotta drill new hole in the top plate above the panel (which is already saturated with holes), and find another clamp with free space going into the panel.   Or remove the old Romex (which is caulked into place).
> 
> So maybe I am being half-assed on that.   But its look like a modern energy-efficient fridge draws less than 2 amps when the compressor is running and maybe 5-6 amps during defrost.   Yes, the compressor causes a surge when it starts, but that's definitely not going to pop that 15 amp breaker (since they unequivocally state that a 15 amp circuit is acceptable), nor does it risk overheating the wire, since it's so brief.   So it seems pretty reasonable to me.
> 
> Also, and maybe somebody can enlighten me here, I'm befuddled about what to do with a piece of Romex that's going into the panel that I no longer use.   Easy enough to remove the hot wire from the breaker.   But the ground is all twisted up with the other grounds  - maybe that's the way they do it when they first wire a house ?    Just clip the ground off where it's rolled into a bunch of others and then pull the rest out ?


Get it out of the panel..clip the ground of need be..better yet buy a ground bar and properly ground the circuits.  

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## begreen (Aug 14, 2016)

RustyShackleford said:


> Actually not.   There's a piece of 14ga Romex in the attic already wired to a breaker, that's currently unused; all I gotta do is drill a hole in the top plate and poke it down.   Running 12ga back to the panel is a bigger pain.   Gotta drill new hole in the top plate above the panel (which is already saturated with holes), and find another clamp with free space going into the panel.   Or remove the old Romex (which is caulked into place).
> 
> So maybe I am being half-assed on that.   But its look like a modern energy-efficient fridge draws less than 2 amps when the compressor is running and maybe 5-6 amps during defrost.   Yes, the compressor causes a surge when it starts, but that's definitely not going to pop that 15 amp breaker (since they unequivocally state that a 15 amp circuit is acceptable), nor does it risk overheating the wire, since it's so brief.   So it seems pretty reasonable to me.



OK, now I can understand there are extenuating circumstances here and no, you're not being half-assed, just practical. It will work. Agreed that there should be a proper ground bar in the panel. A rats nest of ground wires twisted together may not all get good contact to actual ground, makes routing of wires messier and harder to trace if there is an issue.


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## EatenByLimestone (Aug 14, 2016)

When my house was first wired it was wired on 2 circuits.  One for lighting, one for the walls.   Over the years pieces have been cut off so rooms are on their own circuits.  

I recently switched the stove from electric to gas.   When I pulled the wire down below the floor I got the idea to put a sub panel under the kitchen.  Then I took the original wires and put them on their own circuits.  The sub panel makes all the runs real short.


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## fbelec (Aug 14, 2016)

this is nec that i have to use everyday. the appliance that you plug into the outlet doesn't dictate what has to be installed. not to say if it say's 20 amp you need to do so but codes in a kitchen have to be 20 amp. anytime anyone updates a room regardless of what room it is the room has to be brought up to code. arc faults i don't like but i have to put them in. i put a separate circuit in for a fridge because it would be bad if you leave in the morning and not notice that something else on the circuit took out the breaker and food was lost. i personally don't like the gfi receptacle or breaker on the fridge because they can be fussy but i have to do it. do what you think is best for you but at least you know what the codes are. 

frank


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## RustyShackleford (Aug 14, 2016)

begreen said:


> OK, now I can understand there are extenuating circumstances here and no, you're not being half-assed, just practical. It will work. Agreed that there should be a proper ground bar in the panel. A rats nest of ground wires twisted together may not all get good contact to actual ground, makes routing of wires messier and harder to trace if there is an issue.


The grounds are screwed to the ground bar (where the neutrals are also connected).   It's just that they're all twisted together before that, so only way to remove an obsoleted piece of Romex is to clip it. 

Damn, maybe each ground doesn't have its own screw in the ground bar - hard to tell since they're twisted together - I better check that.


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## RustyShackleford (Aug 14, 2016)

EatenByLimestone said:


> ... put a sub panel under the kitchen.  Then I took the original wires and put them on their own circuits.  The sub panel makes all the runs real short.


Cute idea - I love it.  Although said sub-panel would only be about 12ft from the main one.  I do like sub-panels though: I have one for water heaters (even though it only hosts one unit so far, see another thread) and one for HVAC (the main heat pump and a mini-split in an addition).


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## RustyShackleford (Aug 14, 2016)

fbelec said:


> this is nec that i have to use everyday...


I feel your pain (a little bit).   Recently I wired a small addition which WAS subject to inspection (being a significant increase of my footprint).   I didn't have to worry about arc fault because I was able to extend several existing circuits (from the original house).   But I did have a headache or two over the rule about having a neutral in any switch box, and 3way switch configurations.


> a separate circuit in for a fridge because it would be bad if you leave in the morning and not notice that something else on the circuit took out the breaker and food was lost.


You could say you'd be MORE likely to notice the problem if there was something else on the circuit.      Anyhow, I'm definitely down with a dedicated fridge circuit.


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## fbelec (Aug 14, 2016)

right now to us electricians if we add a outlet, switch or light that new addition has to be arc fault. so if we come on to a job of adding one recessed light to a existing bank of recessed lights we would have to change the existing breaker to arc fault or start a new circuit for that light. with new wiring it works but i doesn't work with old circuits. here in the northeast we have a lot of old wiring that works fine and been running for 100 years but put on a arc fault and the arc fault breaker pops. i also heard a new insane code change for next year. not 100% on this because i need to talk to inspectors to see about this and when it will take place but if i come to your house to change a outlet i will be required to make the circuit that handles the outlet arc fault. this is the stupidest code change that i have heard to date. this is going to accomplish electrician's to do work without permits and cause home owners to not get insurance money for a fire that may have started to a outlet that if the wire is torqued down to the inch pound that they recommend can loosen up on the way into the box that is to be mounted to. also it will cause the electrician to call his or her liability insurance for a claim so that it will make for rising prices and insurance companies to cut the policy to guy's that like home owners find out that after 1 claim the insurance drops you. and in order for a electrician to pull a permit here in Massachusetts we have to have liability. i just want to know what brain thought up this one. this code is going to cost the home owner money

sorry for the rant stuff like this gets me 4 feet off the ground.


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## RustyShackleford (Aug 15, 2016)

fbelec said:


> right now to us electricians ...


When I did my addition a couple years ago, the rule was that if I extended an existing circuit, I didn't need to change the breaker to arc fault; but if I added a branch circuit, it had to be AFI protected.   Fortunately the room was just some lights and a few outlets, so I was able to extend several existing circuits with some conveniently-located wiring.   Anyhow, the inspector was clueless, I didn't need to do anything.



> sorry for the rant stuff like this gets me 4 feet off the ground


No prob.  Funny, I always thought a lot of this new stuff (AFI, neutral in switchbox) was to help generate revenue for electrical contractors.   But you don't seem very happy about it, so maybe not ...


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## EatenByLimestone (Aug 15, 2016)

I finished off my attic and the inspector was railing against arc faults.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 15, 2016)

Refrigerator circuits have called for 15 Amp circuits for a long time. One reason i could think of is a 15 Amp circuit would trip sooner than a 20 if a problem arises such as a short in the fridge. A shorted circuit may eventually cause a fire if the breaker dont trip. I could be wrong about this but it seems logical.


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## hockeypuck (Aug 15, 2016)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Refrigerator circuits have called for 15 Amp circuits for a long time. One reason i could think of is a 15 Amp circuit would trip sooner than a 20 if a problem arises such as a short in the fridge. A shorted circuit may eventually cause a fire if the breaker dont trip. I could be wrong about this but it seems logical.


Refridge motors have thermal cut outs built in the motor.  You are no safer on a 15 amp circuit.

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## fbelec (Aug 16, 2016)

RustyShackleford said:


> No prob. Funny, I always thought a lot of this new stuff (AFI, neutral in switchbox) was to help generate revenue for electrical contractors. But you don't seem very happy about it, so maybe not ...



when the arc fault starts tripping it's a pain. it's also a pain when i lose out on doing some work because a simple quick job turns out to be a little more money than the customer want to pay for the simple job.

as far as a short circuit the breaker blows within a 1/8 to 2 seconds doesn't matter what size breaker or wire. they have to put a rating on the appliance and if it were 20 amp circuit it wouldn't be legal to run a fridge in the old houses around because they are 15 amp circuits.


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## venator260 (Aug 17, 2016)

Edit: So I didn't read the rest of the thread after I saw something I wanted to reply to. Some of this has been covered already. 




Buzz Saw said:


> Who's code, NEC or local?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk



He is going off of the latest NEC revisions. One has to check what their locality has adopted. The locale that I live in enforces NEC 2009 (I believe). At any rate, it's the one before arc-fault breakers were required.

As for the fridge, I'm of the opinion that it's better safe than sorry. The thinking goes that if it's on a circuit with something else, and that something else unknowingly trips the breaker, you could have a mess on your hands depending upon when you discover that your fridge isn't working.

I redid my kitchen a bit ago, and it currently has the following:

50A Stove circut (6-3G wire)
3 20A GFCI circuits serving counter top outlets
20A dishwasher circuit
20A microwave circuit
20A circuit serving the outlets in the attached dining room
15A fridge circuit
15A lighting circuit that also serves lights in other rooms

Previous to this, I lived in a house where the kitchen had a gas stove and was served by only 1 15A breaker. Needless to say, I became very tired of nuisance trips and developing strategies for electricity use in the kitchen that didn't trip the breaker. Given the chance, I sent enough power to the kitchen to ensure that would never happen. Looking back, I could have ran a few wires to the kitchen in the old house, but I didn't know nearly as much about wiring as I do now.


As I said, my local code does not require arc-fault breakers at all. So I've made ample use of space saver breakers and gave many things in the house their own circuits. I kept things organized, however, the panel is somewhat crowded because everything in the house is electric (no gas), and I have electric baseboards throughout which take something like 14 slots all by themselves (20A 240V).

So, OP, assuming you've not already put up drywall, this is what I did, and the reasons for it.


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## venator260 (Aug 17, 2016)

RustyShackleford said:


> No prob.  Funny, I always thought a lot of this new stuff (AFI, neutral in switchbox) was to help generate revenue for electrical contractors.   But you don't seem very happy about it, so maybe not ...



I read the thread this time. 

Another forum I go to with a few electricians on it tend to believe it's equipment manufacturers that are pushing for the new, more expensive stuff. 

Not sure what to believe, but, as i said, I'm glad my locality doesn't require that sort of thing. I researched it when I had to do a panel swap in the spring, and I did it well enough for my panel to get it's very own $75 sticker.


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## RustyShackleford (Aug 17, 2016)

venator260 said:


> I redid my kitchen a bit ago, and it currently has the following:
> 
> 50A Stove circut (6-3G wire)
> 3 20A GFCI circuits serving counter top outlets
> ...


Thanks, this is almost precisely what I'm doing, with the following caveats:

1. My third counter-top outlet circuit will not be added until I build an attached wet bar after the main kitchen is done.   However, as neither microwave nor toaster oven will be on countertops, I'm ok with this.

2. My two dining room outlets will share a 20 amp circuit with the five outlets in the living room.

3. The 15A lighting circuit also controls the front-side outside floodlights and a fan/light on the porch.   This is pretty much the original wiring, and that caused no problems even before CFL and LED bulbs became ubiquitous.    The dining room lights are on a different circuit.


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## Dobish (Aug 17, 2016)

i wanted my fridge on a separate circuit. I ran it that way, electrician rewired it. Now its connected to the rest of the kitchen, so when i shut off the power to the kitchen, it kills the fridge.

i would also add more outlets, you can never have too many in the kitchen.


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## blades (Aug 17, 2016)

Arc Faults and GFI don't always do any good- refrigerator  fan motor for coils froze up   nothing tripped so the compressor kept merrily running after a time it was untouchable hot and melted the foam insulation of the unit - this while I was at work - so I come home and open door to a kitchen with a tinge of smoke and a bad electrical smell-  about a month before the dehumidifier had pulled the same type of stunt so I headed for it first ( i had already replaced the fan assembly)  not finding problem there is when I noticed yellow gunk on floor by refig.   Just about at the burn temp judging by the charred tag next to the compressor. Can only guess what may have happened if I had worked late that day.  Oh and the dehumidifier didn't trip anything either- addendum, a  friend's dehumidifier did go up in flames fortunately the house didn't but the smoke and such damage was extensive.  This all transpired in the mid 2000's and there was a recall on various name dehumidifiers right about the same time for just this problem.


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## fbelec (Aug 18, 2016)

in the quest for a more safe house by the breaker companies a fan on a fridge or dehum bearing goes bad and stops the fan from turning unless the wires actually short together a arc fault or gfi won't trip under those conditions. if for some reason the winding start to come apart and arc to themselves the arc fault will trip. or if one of those wires goes to the case and grounds out but not enough current to short out the gfi will blow.


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## fbelec (Aug 18, 2016)

around here if the kitchen is being done over all the old goes out by code and if you run a fridge on a 15 amp breaker it still has to be 12 gauge wire. strike one more makes no sense code for the nec


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## venator260 (Aug 18, 2016)

fbelec said:


> around here if the kitchen is being done over all the old goes out by code and if you run a fridge on a 15 amp breaker it still has to be 12 gauge wire. strike one more makes no sense code for the nec




That is odd based upon my understanding of wire sizes vs. current. 

My fridge has 14 gauge wire going to it on a 15A breaker. 14 gauge is easier to run, which is why I went with that over 12 gauge. I did the lights on a 15A breaker for the same reason.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 18, 2016)

Lights are always run on 14-2  and 15 amp breakers. WIth todays LED lights you may only have 100 -150 watts going on the whole circuit.


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## EatenByLimestone (Aug 18, 2016)

When I rewire I always use 12g.  I can easily see that LEDs are turning, have turned lighting upside down, but annual consumption of electricity continues to increase.  It's over 900kwh per month now!


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## venator260 (Aug 18, 2016)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Lights are always run on 14-2  and 15 amp breakers. WIth todays LED lights you may only have 100 -150 watts going on the whole circuit.




Yep. This is why my lighting circuit runs several rooms in my house, with more to be added as I renovate. I calculated the draw of all of the fixtures with the current mix of incandescent and LED (my grandparents hoarded incandescent before they passed), and I don't even come close to 15 amps. Perhaps 2-3 if I turned every light on on the circuit, which isn't likely. As my supply of incandescents decreases and I replace them with LEDs, that will drop even more.


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## venator260 (Aug 18, 2016)

EatenByLimestone said:


> When I rewire I always use 12g.  I can easily see that LEDs are turning, have turned lighting upside down, but annual consumption of electricity continues to increase.  It's over 900kwh per month now!




I suppose it doesn't hurt, and it would be easier to only have one kind of wire. 

I find that the slightly lower cost of 14-2 vs 12-2 plus the fact that 14-2 is easier to work with makes me purchase different wire for each application. Of course, I only use it if it's going to a 15A breaker.


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## RustyShackleford (Aug 19, 2016)

EatenByLimestone said:


> When I rewire I always use 12g.


Ouch, seems masochistic to me (I HATE working with it).


> I can easily see that LEDs are turning...


Incandescents may be making a comeback.   Seems like I heard some news snippet about researchers who are somehow insulating the filament, so it stays hot enough to give that sweet glow, without using much energy (less than CFL and LED, supposedly).


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## fbelec (Aug 19, 2016)

RustyShackleford said:


> Incandescents may be making a comeback. Seems like I heard some news snippet about researchers who are somehow insulating the filament, so it stays hot enough to give that sweet glow, without using much energy (less than CFL and LED, supposedly).



i hope so the color is better. the companies that make led's see to think that these blueish toned lights are what everybody needs. especially outside. try this yourself. get a led or cfl with the name daylight about 4 to 5000 k color turn it on outside in darkness. shield yourself from the light and see how far you can see the change out the daylight bulb for 2700 to 3000 k color and see how far you see then. the problem is most outdoor light fixtures more so higher power are blue. remember the 500 watt halogen or even the 300 watt halogen and how bright they lit the yard. now get the equal in led or cfl, they don't even come close. yes they are brighter when you look at them but are terrible for how the color gets used by our eyes.


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## RustyShackleford (Aug 19, 2016)

fbelec said:


> i hope so the color is better. the companies that make led's ...


I imagine these new incandescents (if I didn't hallucinate them)have similar color to old-fashioned ones.

I'm with you on the LED color thing.   The problem may be that (theoretically, at least) the bluer ("cooler", or higher color-temperature) LEDs are more efficient (lumens per watt).     There's some pretty good-looking 120VAC LED bulbs now, but the12v ones still suck; I've gone so far as to buy good LED emitters (from Osram or Cree) and make my own landscape-lighting bulbs.


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## Buzz Saw (Aug 19, 2016)

Different brands of 12-2 romex. work differently.  I've found the Cerro at the box stores is awful compared to SouthWire Simpull Romex.  The SouthWire stuff is a softer alloy and bends much easier, especially in tight spots and long pulls.  Because of this I despise Cerro wire and will pay the extra few bucks at the supply house for SouthWire.  

The last time I bought 1000' it was $15.more at the supply house than at Menard's.  $15 is worth the faster easier wire.

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## hockeypuck (Aug 19, 2016)

Buzz Saw said:


> Different brands of 12-2 romex. work differently.  I've found the Cerro at the box stores is awful compared to SouthWire Simpull Romex.  The SouthWire stuff is a softer alloy and bends much easier, especially in tight spots and long pulls.  Because of this I despise Cerro wire and will pay the extra few bucks at the supply house for SouthWire.
> 
> The last time I bought 1000' it was $15.more at the supply house than at Menard's.  $15 is worth the faster easier wire.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


100 percent agree. Simpull is far superior due to the slick coating.  Less chance of wearing through an adjacent wire when pulling through an occupied hole


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## RustyShackleford (Aug 19, 2016)

Buzz Saw said:


> Different brands of 12-2 romex. work differently.  I've found the Cerro at the box stores is awful compared to SouthWire Simpull Romex.  The SouthWire stuff is a softer alloy and bends much easier ...


Wow, I did not know there were such differences in the conductor softness.   Anyone know if that Cerro vs. Southwire discrepancy also applies to 8-3 ?


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## Buzz Saw (Aug 19, 2016)

RustyShackleford said:


> Wow, I did not know there were such differences in the conductor softness.   Anyone know if that Cerro vs. Southwire discrepancy also applies to 8-3 ?


I think it is and 10-3 & 6-3 as well.  SouthWire Simpull for this DIYer.  

I cringe at Cerro wire.

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## fbelec (Aug 20, 2016)

i could be wrong but the last time i bought simpull it is made by the company that gave our wire it's name rather than non metallic sheath cable and that is romex brand wire. i always buy it it also.

so far i have not had any trouble with the cree brand. the color is great too. with the color working the way it does with our eyes there is no way that they can compare lon the lumins scale. if you do the comparison you'll see what i mean.

hows the kitchen coming?


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## RustyShackleford (Aug 20, 2016)

fbelec said:


> hows the kitchen coming?


Good, trying to get ready for drywall finishing, which is biggest issue before cabinets arrive.   And biggest issue before drywall is electric of course,   Always interesting to try to figure out what electricians did here 30 years ago !


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## fbelec (Aug 21, 2016)

RustyShackleford said:


> Always interesting to try to figure out what electricians did here 30 years ago !



sometimes it's best not to know


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## RustyShackleford (Aug 21, 2016)

fbelec said:


> sometimes it's best not to know


I'm seeing a couple of questionable things, curious about your thoughts:

1. Groups of neutral and hot wires (up to 5) twisted together and taped, no wire nut at all.    Sometimes one of the wires is longer and just keeps coming past the tape and to one of the switches.  Edit: there's actually a crimp ring (like is normally used for grounds); I guess they saved maybe $2 when wiring the house, over using wire nuts, and made any later changes that much more difficult - I hate people like that.

2. Daisy-chained connection to switches.   IOW, one of the hot wires coming from the aforementioned taped bundles goes to two switches, with just 3/4" or so of insulation stripped off in one spot, to be screwed to the first switch, and then the stripped end screwed to the second switch in the usual way.

I'm changing the makeup on this 4-gang box (of 4 switches) so I'm happy to change #1 (use wire nuts).   I'd kinda rather keep #2 as it is though, as I don't need to change wiring to those two switches at all, so I'd rather just leave them be (plus, not add an additional hot wire pigtail to the 5 already there).


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## fbelec (Aug 22, 2016)

as far as the group 1 anywhere you see tape remove the tape. as you want to use wirenuts that is the way it should be done. over a period of time the tape will deposit it's adhesive to the splice and begins to be the insulator in the joint as it becomes insulated it starts to heat up and the adhesive gets into the splice even more which snowballs into splice failure and circuit failure. i see tape all time and see half the circuit go down also. 

as far as the hot wire to the switches thats fine as long as the wire between the switches is long enough to not interfere with the placement of switches for the finish plate install. i do that if there is a lot of wires in the box to save space. sometimes there is barely enough space in the box for a wirenut especially a red wirenut.


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## RustyShackleford (Aug 22, 2016)

Ok, thanks.  Yeah, I used some alcohol to clean the tape residue off the wires before I re-connected.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 22, 2016)

Im Rewiring a house that was running on a single 20 amp breaker bugged into knob and tube wire for the last 35 years. Was a single guy living there that whole time so no problems. No insulation either and oil heat. After im done wiring ill blow in cellulose fibre.


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## RustyShackleford (Aug 22, 2016)

Anybody have any idea how much electricity an under-the-counter range hood uses ?   It's like pulling teeth to find the wattage requirements of any of these appliances (you'd think it'd be under "Specifications", but you'd be wrong), but the range hoods are even worse.   I've looked at installation manuals from a couple of makers, and they just say "a 15-amp circuit"; at least they don't say a dedicated circuit is preferred.   Talk about CYA. Some say 6 amps, but even that is probably ridiculous.  No way these things use anywhere close to 720 watts; possibly you can't use LED or CFL in such a warm environment (?), but even with incandescent bulbs, that's silly.   I'm not gonna run yet another circuit just for this thing.


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## begreen (Aug 22, 2016)

Nutone lists the product amperage. A 30" 220cfm unit is around 1.8 amps with halogen lighting.
http://www.nutone.com/products/filter/deluxe-under-cabinet-b065bc32-a0ea-4c0b-888b-fb4c0c1d7d41


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## Buzz Saw (Aug 22, 2016)

Seasoned Oak said:


> After im done wiring ill blow in cellulose fibre.



Look into expanding foam insulation.  There is a product that is "poured" in with a hose that gives very similar benifits to spray foam.

I spray foamed my pole barn and I'll never go back to fiberglass or cellulose.  

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## RustyShackleford (Aug 22, 2016)

Buzz Saw said:


> Look into expanding foam insulation.  There is a product that is "poured" in with a hose that gives very similar benifits to spray foam.


I've heard there are lots of lawsuits with spray foam and the chemicals involved.

But the system where you blow in material (I think they call it BIB, "blown-in batts" ?) is pretty good, but it has to be put in densely enough to not create gaps when it settles.   They did it so densely at my place that the drywall guys said they had to use extra screws.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 22, 2016)

Spray foam is just too expensive. Been using blown in cellulose for 25 years and have not found anything to compete with it on a cost to install basis.
only place i wouldnt use it if theres a chance of it getting wet.


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## fbelec (Aug 23, 2016)

sprayfoam R value is higher than anything else. 1 inch equals 3.5 fiberglass

the under cabinet exhaust fans draw more power because they are way stronger to try to pull down while the natural heated smoke and steam go up. i've seen 5 to 6 amps and some are 240 volt


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## RustyShackleford (Aug 23, 2016)

fbelec said:


> the under cabinet exhaust fans draw more power because they are way stronger to try to pull down while the natural heated smoke and steam go up. i've seen 5 to 6 amps and some are 240 volt


I think you're confusing the under-cabinet type with the downdraft type (like Jenn-Air).


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## fbelec (Aug 23, 2016)

above stove but under the cabinet. depending on the type they range from 120 watts to 380 watts depends on how much power you need the fan to be.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 23, 2016)

Sheet foam is so much cheaper than spray foam. Whenever a job calls for foam i use sheet foam.


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## Buzz Saw (Aug 23, 2016)

I guess it's preference.  I had my pole barn bid out both cellulose and spray foam.  Spray foam was 40% ($2,000)more than cellulose.

Hidden costs with celluslose includes prep time, air sealing & thermal looses due to settling.  I'm not sure how much screwing around I would have to do to get a tight building with cellulose.

I do know extra framing and netting would have been required in my barn to hold up the cellulose.

Spray foam for me was/is a much better option to achieve my goals.  I'Il get all my money back in heating & cooling  in short order and financially benifit for years to come.

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## fbelec (Aug 24, 2016)

i'm going to have to find the R value of foam and board foam but i think spray is higher


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 24, 2016)

Spray foam may be a better for something like a pole barn but i insulate existing houses with closed wall cavities. Cellulose is really the only choice.


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