# Ontario, Canada to ban wood stoves?



## Offset (Jun 14, 2016)

I had a discussion with a couple of people last weekend who heat solely with wood.  It is their understanding that wood stoves/heating devices are going to be banned in the Province.  I have not been able to find a link to this information and was wondering if anyone in Ontario had heard this news?  I do know that the government put out a policy paper on MMGW and their response last week so it could have some validity.


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## LowbanksArcher (Jun 14, 2016)

I've only heard rumours but not seen anything to back it up. Sure wouldn't surprise me at this point. It must just drive Kathleen nuts to think that people are heating their homes with fuel they aren't paying taxes on.

Sent from my LG-H812 using Tapatalk


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## Offset (Jun 14, 2016)

Taxes.  That is what it seems to be all about LowbanksArcher.


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## Squirrel (Jun 14, 2016)

The Climate Change Action Plan says-

*4.2 Help retire older wood stoves*
A new program targeting northern and rural communities, including Indigenous communities, would encourage households to switch out older polluting wood stoves for new high-efficiency wood stoves.

This may mean they'll offer you a $5.00 coupon off a $1,000 stove, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it.


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## begreen (Jun 15, 2016)

I caught this:
Starting in 2018, wood-burning appliances will be banned unless they meet the rigorous new emission standards of 2.5 grams of fine particles or less per hour.
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...es-and-wood-burning-stoves-or-face-a-500-fine


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## Simonkenton (Jun 15, 2016)

Say it ain't so, Johnny Canuck!


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## LowbanksArcher (Jun 15, 2016)

begreen said:


> I caught this:
> Starting in 2018, wood-burning appliances will be banned unless they meet the rigorous new emission standards of 2.5 grams of fine particles or less per hour.
> http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...es-and-wood-burning-stoves-or-face-a-500-fine



Ah yes. I did read about this. This is only in the city of Montreal, Quebec. Although I can see these measures being implemented in other large cities.


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## Offset (Jun 15, 2016)

Begreen, thank you for the link.  Montreal, just a little to the east has a mayor who shares a very similar ideology with the current government of the Province of Ontario.  Interesting.


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## Lake Girl (Jun 15, 2016)

I would find a ban interesting and very hypocritical.  The Atikokan GS for Hydro One is pellet fuelled.  I can understand a push for more rigorous legislation on emissions so cat stoves and pellet stoves. 

They are purporting a ban on NG furnaces in new houses in 2020 IIRC (not sure the status of oil).  Leaves wood and electric for heating ... I could understand if Ontario still owned Hydro One but they sold off a large portion.

Edit:  http://business.financialpost.com/n...on-plan-will-affect-your-life?__lsa=b2ed-672f

No ban on NG for heating but big incentives for alternative heating options...


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## begreen (Jun 15, 2016)

Start practicing your igloo building skills.


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## iceman2424 (Jun 15, 2016)

Fascinating.  Man, do yourselves a favor and don't Google "Montreal wood stove ban."  You'll just end up finding a billion (give or take) articles that talk about the growing "movement" to outlaw wood burning in several municipalities across the U.S. and Canada.

Yowza.  I'm depressed now.


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## begreen (Jun 15, 2016)

I'm not worried as long as the focus is on the worst case scenarios and abusers. Clean burning is good for all of us, especially in urban areas and places where winter temperature inversions are common.


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## LowbanksArcher (Jun 15, 2016)

Lake Girl said:


> I would find a ban interesting and very hypocritical.  The Atikokan GS for Hydro One is pellet fuelled.  I can understand a push for more rigorous legislation on emissions so cat stoves and pellet stoves.
> 
> They are purporting a ban on NG furnaces in new houses in 2020 IIRC (not sure the status of oil).  Leaves wood and electric for heating ... I could understand if Ontario still owned Hydro One but they sold off a large portion.
> 
> ...


Do you know if propane has been mentioned?


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## Lake Girl (Jun 15, 2016)

No specific mention  about propane but expect it to cost more like gas estimate of $.04 more a litre (carbon tax).  These following points leave me scratching my head and debating on how they are planning these "net zero carbon emissions" homes.  If I use my carbon neutral pellet stove for primary heat, my insurance will charge me an additional premium of 1/3 the initial fees which negates any potential savings over fossil fuels.   I know for fuel the ethanol content causes all sorts of problems as it breaks down ... I imagine the same for proposed "renewable content" NG/Propane changes.

Direct from the provincial website (https://www.ontario.ca/page/climate-change-action-plan#section-5)
*5) Set lower-carbon standards for new buildings*
*5.1 Update the Building Code*
The government intends to update the Building Code with long-term energy efficiency targets for new net zero carbon emission small buildings that will come into effect by 2030 at the latest, and consult on initial changes that will be effective by 2020. Ontario will consult on how to best achieve these targets through Building Code improvements.

*6) Promote low-carbon energy supply and products*
*6.1 Establish low-carbon content for natural gas*
Ontario intends to introduce a renewable content requirement for natural gas and provide supports to encourage the use of cleaner, renewable natural gas in industrial, transportation and buildings sectors. The government will consult with industry on the implementation of this requirement. The goal is to ensure the lowest possible carbon content to help reduce building and transportation emissions. Methane released from sources like landfills, municipal green bin collection, agricultural residues, livestock manure, food and beverage manufacturing waste, sewage treatment plants and forestry waste can be renewed and directly substituted for conventional natural gas. Renewable natural gas is a low-carbon fuel that does not add new carbon to the atmosphere. It is fully interchangeable with conventional natural gas and uses the same infrastructure.


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## begreen (Jun 15, 2016)

Wouldn't it be more favorable for the environment to shut down the tar sands project?


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## velvetfoot (Jun 15, 2016)

Major economic hits based on bogus demonization of carbon dioxide; sickening.  Canada has a budget surplus to pay for this feel good crap?


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## colin.p (Jun 15, 2016)

velvetfoot said:


> Canada has a budget surplus to pay for this feel good crap?


Yah, it's called "lets increase taxes". Hail Hydra!


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## LowbanksArcher (Jun 16, 2016)

velvetfoot said:


> Major economic hits based on bogus demonization of carbon dioxide; sickening.  Canada has a budget surplus to pay for this feel good crap?


Oh heck no. Deficits every year. Liberals


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## johneh (Jun 16, 2016)

Well they could do what Hydro One in Ontario did .
Tell there customers that they do very well in conserving electricity
in fact you didn't use enough so we are raising prices because we didn't make enough


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## Offset (Jun 16, 2016)

Hard to argue with wanting a cleaner world.  However our current government has so badly screwed up our hydro system. Alternatives to fossil fuel are probably impossible for most to financially move from them.  Hydro in Ontario is the most expensive in Canada, the governments "green" plan is just a complete mess, they will not say that however.  Best thing to ever happen to us by them.

These politicians typically live in large urban areas.  They seem to forget that people living in rural areas to do not have the options for energy that those who live in urban area do.  My only hope is that this government, who seems to be under new police investigations daily, is removed from office in 2018.

Perhaps someone can develop a going forward plan that will not place extreme hardship on people while protecting the earth.  It is possible, the hysteria just needs to be removed.

My two year supply of wood is stacked and ready to go.  Hope I don't end up in jail.


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## Lake Girl (Jun 16, 2016)

Offset said:


> My two year supply of wood is stacked and ready to go. Hope I don't end up in jail.


Not until 2020 or 2030 ... however their plan works  Your PE and my Elena would not meet the proposed particulate emissions criteria of 2.4.




begreen said:


> Wouldn't it be more favorable for the environment to shut down the tar sands project?


Wrong province .... can't dictate what goes on in Alberta from Ontario.  Can the state of Washington regulate what goes on in North Dakota re:  Bakken?  Same argument , just fill in the blanks...

While trying to find an article on emissions from tar sands - retrieval and consumption, I found this.
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/01/22/oil-sands-environmental-impact_n_2527560.html


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## tarzan (Jun 16, 2016)

begreen said:


> I'm not worried as long as the focus is on the worst case scenarios and abusers. Clean burning is good for all of us, especially in urban areas and places where winter temperature inversions are common.



What would you consider the worst case scenario? More than 2.5 grams an hour? Abusers? 

I agree that clean burning is good for all of us but labeling a wood burner as an abuser is a little harsh!


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## bholler (Jun 16, 2016)

No 2.5g/hr is no where near a worst case scenario or an abuser at all.


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## begreen (Jun 16, 2016)

tarzan said:


> What would you consider the worst case scenario? More than 2.5 grams an hour? Abusers?
> 
> I agree that clean burning is good for all of us but labeling a wood burner as an abuser is a little harsh!


Worse than that. In our area typically it is someone with an old smoke dragon burning poorly seasoned wood by getting it going then shutting down the air and letting it smolder for hours. But it could be someone with a fireplace burning the same poorly seasoned wood.


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## Lake Girl (Jun 16, 2016)

Find it interesting that, up till now, there has been no attention paid to wood stove emissions in regulations in Ontario.  What happens to those that have more modern stoves but they don't meet the 2.4g spec (based on EPA decision for what year)?  I know there is a phase in period in the US but apparently not cutting the same slack here.

Are they planning on carbon taxing pellets too?



LowbanksArcher said:


> Oh heck no. Deficits every year. Liberals


Last year's budget was purportedly balanced but prior to that, the last balance & pay down debt was in 2005/06... not supposed to get into politics so I'll leave it at that.  Just wanted to point out that there is no money in the piggy bank and the loan has been getting bigger.


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## tarzan (Jun 16, 2016)

begreen said:


> Worse than that. In our area typically it is someone with an old smoke dragon burning poorly seasoned wood by getting it going then shutting down the air and letting it smolder for hours. But it could be someone with a fireplace burning the same poorly seasoned wood.



I'll give you that your reasoning has merit but in your area it is likely common knowledge that what you describe is bad.

In my area, your description above would be seen as directions.

The majority of wood burners in the US are seniors. The rest will learn from us or from the majority which are mostly smoldering fire, smoke dragon fans but not necessarily willful abusers.


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## bholler (Jun 17, 2016)

tarzan said:


> The majority of wood burners in the US are seniors.


really I dont see that in our customer base


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## begreen (Jun 17, 2016)

Maybe a toothless reg if there is no enforcement.


tarzan said:


> The majority of wood burners in the US are seniors. The rest will learn from us or from the majority which are mostly smoldering fire, smoke dragon fans but not necessarily willful abusers.


That surprises me. An informal poll here showed younger people. So did this WA State report
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/wood-burner-demographics.2319/
http://www.doh.wa.gov/portals/1/documents/mtgs/2010/20101005-pr-20091005-ps-smokegetsinyoureyes.pdf


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## Lake Girl (Jun 18, 2016)

That seems to be the way in Ontario ... MTO posts a half-loading in the spring.  This year on our secondary highway, it was totally ignored until folks started complaining.  Likely no one was charged...  Hydro One was installing a substation off of the local entry to old forestry roads for the mine development.  Dump trucks fully loaded and not using their screens.  The secondary highway is only tarred rock so now there are many low spots pounded in.  MNR track record on shorelines is not much better.


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## jetsam (Jun 19, 2016)

If you google it, you get a lot of people going "OMG STOVE BAN!!1", but the proposals they're talking about are particulate emission standards, not bans on anything.

I'd say the EPA rules in the US made wood burning a much better experience for everyone. Manufacturers had to figure out tube stoves and cat stoves. End users got much better heat output and burn times. Their neighbors get a lot less wood smoke. We still haven't banned legacy stoves, but it'd honestly be a favor to the people who still have them if we did. (I've had both; not going back!)


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## tarzan (Jun 23, 2016)

Really Begreen. You're the one that gave me that info!

On the thread, "out right ban on anything wood in Utah" post 70, you stated- according to US census numbers the majority of wood burners are over 65 living in mobiles.

I encourage you to also read post 68 and 69 as it pertains to this thread.


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## begreen (Jun 23, 2016)

Sorry for the confusion. There appears to be a conflict between national EPA census and WA state data. Might be that WA state has less mobile home living seniors.  Now I can't find the EPA census data and what I can find is based on 8-10 yr old data, though it is inciteful regarding the process of quantifying the effect of emissions and their regulation. 
https://www3.epa.gov/ttn/ecas/docs/ria/wood-heaters_ria_final-nsps-revision_2015-02.pdf


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## Lake Girl (Jun 23, 2016)

EPA report writers must be on crack ... page 57, price of stoves   I have never seen a new pellet stove for $300!!


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## begreen (Jun 23, 2016)

2008 pricing, but that still does sound very low. Maybe it was for a pellet basket?


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## Lake Girl (Jun 23, 2016)

Think I have it figured out ... the Window pellet stoves that were recalled.  Just found mention of one from Princess Auto in 2013 for $524 (Cdn store and Cdn dollars).  Even the Comfortbilt imports are around $1000....  So I guess they qualified the window one as a pellet stove ... more of a fire hazard


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