# New Heat Pump then Power Company Doubles kWh rates



## UpStateNY (Mar 6, 2022)

So here in upstate NY,  NYPERG and our Central   Hudson electric power company provides great rebates to install Heat Pumps.  So we install Heat Pumps.  Then on Feb 10, 2022 Central Hundson  last month decides to increase kWh rate from 16 cents per kWh to 30 cents per kWh.  You can not win.  This is the ultimate bait and switch.   They sold us on, don't use fosil fuels for heat, you can save money and help the environment by switching to electric heat pumps.  

This is a complete loss in confidence that the electric power company is going to provide electric power at STABLE reasonable rates, which historically they have done until last month.  

Has your power company had significant unprecedented rate increases like this?


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## Mt Bob (Mar 6, 2022)

High energy prices were predicted almost a year ago, along with inflation, high fuel prices, and interest rates.


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## velvetfoot (Mar 6, 2022)

I'm not sure you can blame CH for the bump, since they only deliver the power.  Of course, you can blame them for advertising heat pumps, putting inserts in the bills, etc, but not even then, since it's the PSC that's forcing them to do it.  To support the New Green Deal, don't you know.
Edit:  You probably got a rebate also, right, funded by...me and others?


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## dh1989 (Mar 6, 2022)

I'm surprised you guys were at $0.16. The New England grid had been in the mid .20 range for a few years now. My latest bill all in (supply transmission and taxes) was $0.26/kWh.


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## begreen (Mar 6, 2022)

That's a massive price increase. Seems like it would trip the breakers of the state regulators. Is this permanent or temporary due to current demand? Do they have peak demand billing or is this the same 24/7?


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## peakbagger (Mar 6, 2022)

There could be lots of reasons for big utility jumps. Many utilities were partners in nuclear power plants, that are either closing down or the owners are being paid a premium to keep them running. Many utilities switched to natural gas fired power plants and natural gas had gone way up in price. Many states have put in renewable mandates and surcharge customers to incentivize renewable generation and efficiency upgrades. I have seen discussions that in Mass, these programs are about 8% increase a year regardless of fuel costs. Many folks also are confused on who they are buying their power from. Many states have customer choice on  who they buy their power from. The utility charges a delivery fee but the power comes from private supplier. In some cases the utility bill for both and hands the supply fee to the third party. Those private plans usually are very tied to fuel costs unlike the standard default plan the utility charges.

The observation in Mass is either pay to install solar of pay for your neighbor to do it (on your bill).  With respect to heat, the only way to beat the game is build a zero net energy home or burn local wood. Pellets are going to lag in costs but if energy costs stay high more people will burn them and the price will drift up. BTW mini splits still make a lot of sense in shoulder season but their efficiency drops substantially as the temp drops.  If the power rates are high they still can be very expensive to heat with in cold weather.

I have solar and net metering with surplus so on a 30 degree night I am taking a couple of days off from running the wood boiler.


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## stoveliker (Mar 6, 2022)

I wouldn't know anymore what the rates are here. Have solar since Oct. '18. Generate enough to offset all my use.

Regardless, a rate doubling is problematic.

Is this the power cost or the total cost per kWh?


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## Woodspliter (Mar 6, 2022)

Yeah solar seems like natural progression after installing heat pumps. Getting my final  System design this week, we'll see how many panels I can fit on the roof


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## peakbagger (Mar 7, 2022)

Woodspliter said:


> Yeah solar seems like natural progression after installing heat pumps. Getting my final  System design this week, we'll see how many panels I can fit on the roof


If you want to post what the proposed equipment will be I and possibly others will give you an opinion.


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## Woodspliter (Mar 7, 2022)

So I decided to go with Rec Alpha 400 panels and the Enphase mirco inverters.  It's down to how many I can fir neatly up on the roof witch I estimate is around 26 panels


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## yooperdave (Mar 7, 2022)

Did something happen along the ways of energy prices?  It seems that what we pay for any and all forms of energy started to increase about a year ago.

Weird.....


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## Mt Bob (Mar 7, 2022)

yooperdave said:


> Did something happen along the ways of energy prices?  It seems that what we pay for any and all forms of energy started to increase about a year ago.
> 
> Weird.....


Ya, we got "Joe-ed"


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## SpaceBus (Mar 7, 2022)

dh1989 said:


> I'm surprised you guys were at $0.16. The New England grid had been in the mid .20 range for a few years now. My latest bill all in (supply transmission and taxes) was $0.26/kWh.


Our rates are not much lower here in Downeast Maine. Transmission costs are going up, and our state board of regulators approved it, despite both power companies in the state spending record amounts on ad campaigns. 

Please, stop saying there is inflation. Corporations/Markets cannot boast record profits and also experience high inflation, they are antithetic concepts. Supply constraints are pushing prices up, but corporations are also increasing prices faster than needed to cover the increases. As the saying goes, "you you never let a serious crisis go to waste" and that's what is happening now with prices. Look at lumber prices, currently sitting around $1.40/bdft, and see that log prices are not going up. There was a time during the beginning of the pandemic when mills laid off most of their staff, to only see a huge spike in demand or lumber. This drove up the prices of lumber accordingly, and once the mills came back up to normal capacity the prices went back down. Now prices are back up, but logs are still plentiful and mills are making lumber, this is just price gouging by "Big Lumber" because they saw the market would bear absurd lumber prices. That's not inflation, that's just gouging. The US dollar is also fairly strong right now, especially considering everything that is going on right now.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 7, 2022)

Mt Bob said:


> Ya, we got "Joe-ed"


You mean climate change is forcing legislation and a giant fossil fuel producer invaded another country while we are all still in the throes of a pandemic, which started under the previous administration.


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## Mt Bob (Mar 7, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> You mean climate change is forcing legislation and a giant fossil fuel producer invaded another country while we are all still in the throes of a pandemic, which started under the previous administration.


LOL


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## peakbagger (Mar 7, 2022)

Woodspliter said:


> So I decided to go with Rec Alpha 400 panels and the Enphase mirco inverters.  It's down to how many I can fir neatly up on the roof witch I estimate is around 26 panels


Probably worth a separate thread, if so a mod can create one. 

Looks like a nice PV panel.  I would recommend getting a price for at least one spare and stashing it somewhere for the long run. Panel shapes and sizes change and if one of yours gets broken in few years, finding a matching replacement is almost impossible. 

Have you run PV Watts for your location?. Its a somewhat conservative but reliable estimate. 

Have you added up your power bills for a few years to figure out your yearly usage?. It rarely makes sense to go to larger than needed system unless you are planning to buy an EV.  

I would recommend you install at least one high quality surge suppressor on the house main panel. Midnight Solar SPDs have a great rep.  Utility surges happen and a SPD should keep it from doing damage in the house. Unfortunately nothing is guaranteed from a direct lighting strike. 

Take a good look at where the snow will slide in the winter. The panels will act like a metal roof anf build up snow then let loose in a big thump in day or two. It can kill or at least injure people and wipe out landscaping. Snow brakes can be installed to minimize the slide but then you lose production. There is really no way to quantify lost winter production unless you have local production data from a similar installation.

400 watt panels multiplied by 26 = 10.4 KW which will exceed the allowable back feed for 200 AMP main panel, that most likely mean a line side tap to connect to the utility unless you are real lucky and have a 200 Amp panel with 225 Amp bus. If you trim the array down a bit you should be able to just backfeed the panel. If you have a 100AMP service you definitely need a line side tap.


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## Woodspliter (Mar 7, 2022)

I haven't run PV watts for my location is that a Wed site that calculates solar output?      The array will be broken up into two sections thw garage and the house. The house already has a steel roof so were prepared for falling snow  the garage is getting reshingled and it faces the south good for at least 14 panels. We have 200amp panel not sure the buss size but it is getting full. I installed a Siemens whole home surge suppressor when I have my heat pumps installed last year


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## peakbagger (Mar 7, 2022)

If you are not aware of PV Watts, it may be worth picking up Solar Power Your Home for Dummies. Its cheap education.  PV Watts is pretty self explanatory https://pvwatts.nrel.gov/  By the sounds of the roof, you may need to have shading analysis done in case part of the roof gets shaded by the other roof. 

Most main panels can take the double breakers to free up some space. You need space for a standard 240 Volt breaker (two slots) in the bottom row of the panel for the PV circuit. Having  a bus  bar rated higher than the panel is rare unless is fairly new.  Some companies now sell "solar ready panels with the larger bus". 

Your call on the surge suppressor. Many are designed with fairly high clamp voltages, they keep the wires from smoking but take out electronics. The Midnight Solar SPDs have lower clamp voltages so the electronics have a chance of surviving.


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## Bad LP (Mar 7, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> You mean climate change is forcing legislation and a giant fossil fuel producer invaded another country while we are all still in the throes of a pandemic, which started under the previous administration.


You're not serious. We had more energy than we knew what to do with until someone closed the valve. 

The pending war IS NOT THE PROBLEM. Your TV is lying to you.


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## yooperdave (Mar 7, 2022)

😅😂🤣


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## SpaceBus (Mar 7, 2022)

You guys are funny. The sanctions against Russia are absolutely contributing to price increases. You don't even need my level of training and experience to see that. I spent six years studying Russia, the language, their history, culture, and military tactics. Russia is one of the leading fossil fuel exporters worldwide. While we may not import a ton of oil directly from them, other countries do. Those countries are now scrambling to get more oil, driving up the cost for everyone else. If you don't believe me, that's fine, you don't have to. I was sitting in a Russian classroom with a native Russian teacher the day Russia invaded Ukraine the first time in 2014. To say Russia and their war have no influence on global economies is to believe Russian propaganda.

Also, I don't have cable or watch any network news.


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## stoveliker (Mar 7, 2022)

the concept of a global market versus local production seems to be hard to grasp for some.


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## EbS-P (Mar 7, 2022)

Doubling cost on short notice stinks.   We are regulated here.  Only choice is Duke Energy.  We now have a storm fee.  Regulators approved an increase t their year and next.  I want to say 7% each.    There is no way around a global energy market.  Energy supply goes down price goes up. Demand goes up so does the price.  Doubling our price would add 75 -100$ a month to our bill.  What really gone up over the last 10 years is out water sewer trash bill.  More than doubled. Went up so much they started billing monthly to make bills appear smaller.   Most of that increase to going to pay for infrastructure improvements.  

Most of us that are paying close attention to the energy and environmental landscape are expecting increase coast be 100% with a letter and a month or two notice would still be shocked.  Family member had an oil delivery thought she locked it in. Two Days later oil company called and said they couldn’t honor the previous price and the new price was $1.60  a gallon more.    It’s just not electricity.


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## yooperdave (Mar 7, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> You guys are funny. The sanctions against Russia are absolutely contributing to price increases. You don't even need my level of training and experience to see that. I spent six years studying Russia, the language, their history, culture, and military tactics. Russia is one of the leading fossil fuel exporters worldwide. While we may not import a ton of oil directly from them, other countries do. Those countries are now scrambling to get more oil, driving up the cost for everyone else. If you don't believe me, that's fine, you don't have to. I was sitting in a Russian classroom with a native Russian teacher the day Russia invaded Ukraine the first time in 2014. To say Russia and their war have no influence on global economies is to believe Russian propaganda.
> 
> Also, I don't have cable or watch any network news.






stoveliker said:


> the concept of a global market versus local production seems to be hard to grasp for some.




Ouch!   That hurts........but not as bad as when I'm pumping gas.

I'm going to circle back to you on this one!


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## begreen (Mar 7, 2022)

It sounds like the price hike is temporary, but I guess you will need to wait and see. 









						New York State Senate to investigate utility companies, power producers amid steep bills
					

The state Senate's Committee on Investigations and Government Operations is looking into skyrocketing energy bills.



					www.lohud.com


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## UpStateNY (Mar 7, 2022)

begreen said:


> It sounds like the price hike is temporary, but I guess you will need to wait and see.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Central Hudson first said it was Temporary.  A week later they said it may be longer.  Yeah I always thought NY state regulated electric rates.   Turns out not so much.  Even the Delivery rate is only somewhat regulated.  The supply part is what really increased from 8 cents to 21 cents per kWh.    Delivery is stable at about 9 cents per kWh.  Big increase at a really bad time for many.  My neighbor used mini-splits this winter for the first time this year and just got a $900 bill for one month.  Ouch.  If he had locked in on #2 Fuel oil he would have been better off.  If we all locked in on the different electric suppliers at 7.49 cents per kWh (versus 21 cents) for 2 to 3 years we all would have been better. off.  

*My confidence in stable electric rates are shattered.   😕*


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## yooperdave (Mar 7, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> the concept of a global market versus local production seems to be hard to grasp for some.




Not so quick there, butch!

Maybe it's more of a concept of being lied to, being misled, being fed propaganda that is hard to grasp!

Just fall into line........

UpStateNY  is right when he said "you can not win"


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## SpaceBus (Mar 8, 2022)

yooperdave said:


> Not so quick there, butch!
> 
> Maybe it's more of a concept of being lied to, being misled, being fed propaganda that is hard to grasp!
> 
> ...


The government is not feeding the propaganda, there isn't even an agency to create it. ALL of the propaganda is coming from private corporations.


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## old greybeard (Mar 8, 2022)

Just south of you I’m paying .079. PPL, my comparison power delivery  rate is currently .09. We have electric choice in PA. Can choose suppliers, choose green if we want, with the extra cost. 
New York  does not allow fracking.  Lots of gas in NY. Hope you’re paying more for NG than we are in PA. Close by we recently  tore down a 200 household supply coal powered plant. Replaced with a 1 million household NG plant. Reduced emissions by 90% with a 5x increase in output. And cheaper fuel.  Our landowners, including me are benefiting thru royalties and cheap propane as well.


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## LogCabinFever (Mar 8, 2022)

peakbagger said:


> There could be lots of reasons for big utility jumps. Many utilities were partners in nuclear power plants, that are either closing down or the owners are being paid a premium to keep them running. Many utilities switched to natural gas fired power plants and natural gas had gone way up in price. Many states have put in renewable mandates and surcharge customers to incentivize renewable generation and efficiency upgrades. I have seen discussions that in Mass, these programs are about 8% increase a year regardless of fuel costs. Many folks also are confused on who they are buying their power from. Many states have customer choice on  who they buy their power from. The utility charges a delivery fee but the power comes from private supplier. In some cases the utility bill for both and hands the supply fee to the third party. Those private plans usually are very tied to fuel costs unlike the standard default plan the utility charges.


Exactly this. I’m not sure if you are under Eversource or not. If you are, I’m sure you remember the controversy that happened a couple years ago when they hiked the rates drastically, specifically in CT. Complaints were made in an investigation was started. The initial blame was placed on the Millstone nuclear plant hiking their rates. Although Millstone did indeed hike their rate, it was minimal in the end being only a few cents. Winded up being the major cause was legislation that was passed years ago requiring the doubling of the percentage of renewable energy generation while decreasing nuclear. Renewable energy is well documented to be more than twice the cost of nuclear energy. On top of that, Connecticut gets almost all of its renewable energy generation from out of state, which further adds to supply fees. Consequently Connecticut has I believe the second or third highest electric rates in the entire country.

I’m all for renewable energy, but I think there must be a balance. Renewable energy can never practically be the sole source of power generation. It’s too costly and far too inefficient. Increasing appliance and home efficiency while fully switching to renewable energy is, at best, premature. At worst, not sustainable and not wise. Where it shines is as a supplement.

Green Energy is fantastic and worthy of some pursuit, but renewable energy is not a basket that should carry all the eggs.


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## Brian26 (Mar 9, 2022)

UpStateNY said:


> So here in upstate NY,  NYPERG and our Central   Hudson electric power company provides great rebates to install Heat Pumps.  So we install Heat Pumps.  Then on Feb 10, 2022 Central Hundson  last month decides to increase kWh rate from 16 cents per kWh to 30 cents per kWh.  You can not win.  This is the ultimate bait and switch.   They sold us on, don't use fosil fuels for heat, you can save money and help the environment by switching to electric heat pumps.
> 
> This is a complete loss in confidence that the electric power company is going to provide electric power at STABLE reasonable rates, which historically they have done until last month.
> 
> Has your power company had significant unprecedented rate increases like this?


Even at .30 kwh if your heat pump  has a cop of 3 its still half the cost or more to run compared to current heating oil/propane costs. Heating oil is $5 gallon here in CT and a quick Google search shows similar prices in your area. 

 Many newer hyper heat units can achieve cop's much higher closer to 4. What kind of heat pump did you install? Do you know the HSPF of the unit?


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## yooperdave (Mar 13, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> The government is not feeding the propaganda, there isn't even an agency to create it. ALL of the propaganda is coming from private corporations.




I don't think I said it was the gubermint, but then they don't bother with propaganda. 

It is just outright lies now-a-days!   😁


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## fire_man (Mar 19, 2022)

UpStateNY said:


> Central Hudson first said it was Temporary.  A week later they said it may be longer.  Yeah I always thought NY state regulated electric rates.   Turns out not so much.  Even the Delivery rate is only somewhat regulated.  The supply part is what really increased from 8 cents to 21 cents per kWh.    Delivery is stable at about 9 cents per kWh.  Big increase at a really bad time for many.  My neighbor used mini-splits this winter for the first time this year and just got a $900 bill for one month.  Ouch.  If he had locked in on #2 Fuel oil he would have been better off.  If we all locked in on the different electric suppliers at 7.49 cents per kWh (versus 21 cents) for 2 to 3 years we all would have been better. off.
> 
> *My confidence in stable electric rates are shattered.   😕*



Why don't you lock in at one of the current Supplier offers? These offers look better than what we have in MA.
I try to stay away from cancellation fees. I noticed in the zip code 12534  just North of you (National Grid), the alternate Supplier rates are about half what is available to you which stinks.

Yikes that $900 bill for your neighbor's mini splits makes me wonder if something is wrong with one of them.

I found this concerning note on the NY Gov website:

*The Public Service Commission has been critical of certain Energy Services Companies, or ESCOs, particularly regarding prices. The Commission is considering whether the retail access market for energy commodity is working properly, or if it should be revised.*


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## UpStateNY (Mar 23, 2022)

I just got my Feb to Mar electric bill.  Cost of delivery is almost unchanged. The energy supply rate (cost to produce the energy) increased 3.5 times over the same month period last year.  Correct me if I am wrong but I don’t believe oil and natural gas prices went up 3.5 times In the last 12 months. This has the smell of a monopoly that can charge whatever they want.  Having all my energy needs, (EV, heat, cooking, hot water) from a monopoly that can just increase rates by 3.5 timess in a single month is extremely concerning.  I prefer competition and alternative options.


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## begreen (Mar 23, 2022)

That's terrible. My understanding is that it's not just the cost of energy, but the cost of transmission via Con Ed line has gone way up too. Compared to last year is not exactly accurate due to other variables like weather, personal usage, etc. That said, it may be worth contacting the state public utility commissioner, Rory M. Christian, considering that Hudson Power only projected a 46% electric increase on their website, not 350%.









						Energy Supply Cost Volatility
					

Cold weather can cause increased energy usage, which may potentially result in higher supply prices and in turn higher energy bills. Unlike Central Hudson's delivery rates, market energy supply prices often rise and fall in step with customer demand. Central Hudson and other delivery utilities...




					www.cenhud.com


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## peakbagger (Mar 23, 2022)

The state of Maine had a study done of the various third party power plans available in the state versus the "standard offer" (sometimes called the default rate). They compared the cost of the plans over  various long terms and the conclusion was rarely if ever did the third party plans offered in the state show any savings over the standard rate. The third parties tend to offer teaser rates initially but ultimately they are buying power from the same suppliers that the default rate does. The only thing is they usually have an out if the price of power goes up substantially to adjust their rates quicker. At least one big third party firm that was selling NH went out of business when they failed to properly hedge for a spike in power costs. 

In a net metering state the only way to win is not to play the game by putting in enough on site generation. The utilities know that and they are always trying to shift costs onto the monthly fee as even folks like me that have not bought power for several years still need to pay the monthly rate. 

Transmisson costs are going up, a lot of the renewable generation is in rural areas like windmills and solar farms and the grid doesn't have the capacity to carry the power. The cost to upgrade the grid in many cases gets transferred to the user rate.


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## stoveliker (Mar 23, 2022)

^^ that.

I see my monthly fee creep up. Granted it's not much $$, but it went from $12-13 to $14.50 or so in 2 years. That's peanuts (b/c net metering and sufficient production), but it's an increase of near 20 % in two years


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## SpaceBus (Mar 23, 2022)

They charge us to upgrade infrastructure, then use profits to lobby to increase rates further.


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## peakbagger (Mar 23, 2022)

The vast number of utilities are publicly regulated.  They used to be local but now many are owned by international firms that do the bare minimum to keep the politicians happy so they do not lose their franchise. That said all the New England States are in the  Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative RGGI states and that will raise the cost of power as it puts value on carbon emissions. Other states do not care about green house gases and their power is cheaper. The Clean Power Plan proposed during the Obama administration would have leveled the field, New England states would not have had to do much while coal states would have needed to spend a lot.


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## fire_man (Mar 23, 2022)

UpStateNY said:


> I just got my Feb to Mar electric bill.  Cost of delivery is almost unchanged. The energy supply rate (cost to produce the energy) increased 3.5 times over the same month period last year.  Correct me if I am wrong but I don’t believe oil and natural gas prices went up 3.5 times In the last 12 months. This has the smell of a monopoly that can charge whatever they want.  Having all my energy needs, (EV, heat, cooking, hot water) from a monopoly that can just increase rates by 3.5 timess in a single month is extremely concerning.  I prefer competition and alternative options.


Did you see the chart I posted for your area? You can still lock in a decent fixed rate much lower than what you currently paying.


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## Bad LP (Mar 24, 2022)

peakbagger said:


> The state of Maine had a study done of the various third party power plans available in the state versus the "standard offer" (sometimes called the default rate). They compared the cost of the plans over  various long terms and the conclusion was rarely if ever did the third party plans offered in the state show any savings over the standard rate. The third parties tend to offer teaser rates initially but ultimately they are buying power from the same suppliers that the default rate does. The only thing is they usually have an out if the price of power goes up substantially to adjust their rates quicker. At least one big third party firm that was selling NH went out of business when they failed to properly hedge for a spike in power costs.
> 
> In a net metering state the only way to win is not to play the game by putting in enough on site generation. The utilities know that and they are always trying to shift costs onto the monthly fee as even folks like me that have not bought power for several years still need to pay the monthly rate.
> 
> Transmisson costs are going up, a lot of the renewable generation is in rural areas like windmills and solar farms and the grid doesn't have the capacity to carry the power. The cost to upgrade the grid in many cases gets transferred to the user rate.


The 3rd party offer boned me hard then when I opted out they said I had to wait. Really? Wait to stop getting screwed? I think not. 
Read where I had to have no outstanding payments to stay in the program so I responded with I’ll pay the delivery charges and let you people kick me out of the program. Only then did the woman say I couldn’t do that and my reply was “watch me”!
They cut me free. I then called my buddy who had turned me on to this screwing and he freaked out. Went thru the same “you can’t” that quickly got him off it as well. 

Never again


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## UpStateNY (Mar 24, 2022)

fire_man said:


> Did you see the chart I posted for your area? You can still lock in a decent fixed rate much lower than what you currently paying.


Yup I saw it.  I tried to sign up with a fixed rate last week.   I spent hours and hours on the phone over many days.  I even had a three way call with the fixed rate company, central hudson, and myself.    Complete failure but at least I gave it my best effort.  Nice website though.   Try to actually sign up to get a fixed rate is whole other story.     At this point I stopped trying until my  6 months of bills get all up to date.


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## old greybeard (Mar 30, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> The government is not feeding the propaganda, there isn't even an agency to create it. ALL of the propaganda is coming from private corporations.


I have friends who are ex broadcasters, being paid good money working for the state generating propaganda. You’d be shocked how many millions are spent on this. Both parties have a separate group of reporters and photographers who push their agenda. I know the PA budget for just the house arm is 10 million. Most news stations just regurgitate what they are fed.


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## UpStateNY (Mar 30, 2022)

old greybeard said:


> ...... Most news stations just regurgitate what they are fed.


Yup and there lies the problem.  Central Hudson says 45% electric bill increase, which sugar coats the increase and the papers print it.    If a customer uses a 1000 kWh or more per month the increase will be more than 45%.  What they are not telling them is that,  Electric Supply Rate increased 2.5 times versus previous 12 month average and 2022 February rate is 3.5 times more expensive versus  2021 February rate.    Last I checked the commodity prices for oil and gas did not increase 3.5 times in one year.  The papers are also not telling anyone that up the road in Albany, NY National Grid rates had NO increase.


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