# Chainsaw gas and ethonal ?



## woodsmaster (May 16, 2015)

Ive been hearing that there is more ethanol being added to gas all the time, and its bad for small engines.  What additives are you all using to correct this problem ? i don't really want to buy the  $8 a quart pre mix stuff they sell if I don't need to.


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## DougA (May 16, 2015)

Use the highest octane gas you can buy and you'll be fine.


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## k3751 (May 16, 2015)

The place I buy my saws and whatnot from was able to turn me on to a couple of mom and pop stations in the area that carry unleaded w/out ethanol. Maybe check with them? I know the type of gas available seems to vary from state to state.


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## Babaganoosh (May 16, 2015)

So far no E free gas here in NJ last I checked.


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## Jon1270 (May 16, 2015)

DougA said:


> Use the highest octane gas you can buy and you'll be fine.



Octane and ethanol are separate issues.  Raising the former doesn't fix the latter.

Not being a chemist I can't tell you exactly what's so bad about ethanol, but the complaints seem to boil down to three basic issues that might actually be important to small engines:

Ethanol has less energy than an equal volume of gasoline, so as ethanol content goes up, power goes down slightly.  Not really a practical concern unless you're racing.

Ethanol softens rubber fuel lines and carburetor diaphragms, especially on older equipment that wasn't designed for it.  This doesn't happen quickly, but if you're the kind of user who puts a saw full of gas away in a shed and forgets about it for a year or two at a time, then it can be a real problem.  An easy solution is to empty the tank, start the saw and let it idle until it stalls before putting it away if you don't expect to be unused for more than a few weeks.

Finally, I've seen at least one claim that long-term exposure to ethanol can cause aluminum corrosion and thus damage small passages in carburetor bodies.  I doubt this because I have yet to encounter a carb that couldn't be set right with a simple rebuild kit, but neither can I be sure that it never happens. Either way it can also be avoided by emptying the tank for storage.  

There are other perfectly legitimate economic and political reasons to dislike ethanol, but your small engines don't care about those.  I'd buy ethanol-free gas if it was easily available close to home, but it isn't.


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## Bigg_Redd (May 16, 2015)

woodsmaster said:


> Ive been hearing that there is more ethanol being added to gas all the time, and its bad for small engines.  What additives are you all using to correct this problem ? i don't really want to buy the  $8 a quart pre mix stuff they sell if I don't need to.



Believe it or not - _most_ Iowa corn farmers, law makers, and regulators have advanced degrees in mechanical engineering and organic chemistry.  These people have done _thorough_ and exhaustive research and know _exactly _what is best for you and you saw.  How dare you question their judgement.  Do you _really_ think they are not acting in our best interest with all available information?  Do you really think these same people would make such sweeping changes not from actual scientific research but out of sheer political expedience?  How dare you, Sir.


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## dougand3 (May 16, 2015)

http://pure-gas.org/

I read a study that revealed many 10% ethanol pumps actually had up to 25% ethanol in them. But no 100% gasoline/no ethanol pumps had any ethanol.


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## billb3 (May 16, 2015)

woodsmaster said:


> Ive been hearing that there is more ethanol being added to gas all the time, and its bad for small engines.  What additives are you all using to correct this problem ? i don't really want to buy the  $8 a quart pre mix stuff they sell if I don't need to.


 You can rise above the ignorance, conspiracy theories and noise by visiting a manufacturer's website for their recommendations regarding E10 gasoline.
Here's Stihl's:
http://www.stihlusa.com/information/articles/gasoline-guidelines-outdoor-power-equipment/

Ethanol has a very short shelf life  so it should not be stored anywhere.
Ethanol is a cleaner, degreaser and is extremely hydroscopic affecting the shelf life stated previously.

E15 and E15 blender pumps were banned in the US in 2014 so you shouldn't be finding it anywhere unless the ban has been lifted.


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## moey (May 16, 2015)

Run it until it stalls and you should be fine. Buy the right octane. You may have some luck on this website finding a place close by http://pure-gas.org/


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## Ashful (May 16, 2015)

Running:  93 octane E10 pump gas, with any name-brand 2-stoke oil.

Storage:  the $8 ethanol-free premix.


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## Wildo (May 16, 2015)

Buy AV gas (100LL) from a local airport and never worry about it again.  It costs about the same as ethanol gas+a stabilizer,  and you can store it for up to three years.  Ethanol is not allowed in AV gas because it isn't safe due to moisture absorption/freeze up, and its highly corrosive nature.  However it should not be used in equipment with valves due to the fact that lead fouling can eventually cause problems with pistons and valves colliding but it takes years.


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## Rossco (May 16, 2015)

Well I struggle every time as my truck only runs 91 premium. It's a scam most places as some premium contains 5% Ethy. I have a tester and only visit a choice selection of service stations. Also look out for seperate premium service points that have a dedicated pump / hose / gun.

My saw well, 91 only but it's not really an issue if it contains a little Ethy.


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## Ashful (May 16, 2015)

What kind of truck only runs on 91 premium?  High compression motor, or just a POS that's not set up right from the factory?


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## Rossco (May 16, 2015)

Ashful said:


> What kind of truck only runs on 91 premium?  High compression motor, or just a POS that's not set up right from the factory?



In a word : Supercharged :


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## DougA (May 16, 2015)

Jon1270 said:


> Octane and ethanol are separate issues. Raising the former doesn't fix the latter.


No, but if there are no pumps in your area that are ethanol free (such as my area), high octane will run better in 2 stroke engines.  EVERY Stihl dealer and every equipment rental dealer in our area tell every customer to use high octane gas ONLY.  If you do not want to buy the expensive pre-mix, then high octane is the answer.

If you live in an area where you can buy gas without ethanol, then you could probably use regular gas.  I don't know as I doubt I will ever have that choice.  The ethanol lobby is still strong in Ontario.


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## blades (May 17, 2015)

Corn gas wasn't worth squat in the 1930's - nothing has changed - heck of a scam on the public to serve a few pocket books.  As far as the green crowd is concerned its another scam as it needs more energy to make than it saves- a conveniently over looked fact.  Now we add the impact on the food market and we all know what that has done. So much of equipment parts are sourced from areas that do not give a d... adds to our problems as by now there are materials to resist effects long term but are not used in the mfg process - good for repair shops bad for consumers. Ethanol also make our engines run at an elevated temp as compared to  straight petrol- another hitch in the get-a-long.   Like a carbonated drink that has been open and re-closed it goes flat in a short amount of time + leaving deposits in its wake that plug things up. Additionally due to its affinity for moisture it also causes corrosion of metallic parts. Ethanol is added to the petroleum product generally at a regional distribution point. It has been proven that the metering of amounts has been less than adequate at many of said distribution points, with some testing as high as 25%. whys and wherefores I can't answer on this other than it makes no sense imo.
You can argue the above statements but they are all true. Flame on.


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## Jon1270 (May 17, 2015)

DougA said:


> No, but if there are no pumps in your area that are ethanol free (such as my area), high octane will run better in 2 stroke engines.  EVERY Stihl dealer and every equipment rental dealer in our area tell every customer to use high octane gas ONLY.



Yes, and the manuals for the equipment also specify higher-octane fuel.  But that has nothing to do with ethanol and the ill effects it can have on small equipment, which is what the OP asked about.


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## firefighterjake (May 17, 2015)

I'm just a dumb firefighter with a bevy of small engines running the gamut from a weedbeater to a snowmobile and everything in between (which would include a generator, chainsaw, push lawn mower, riding mower, ATV and power washer) . . . no advanced degree here in science . . . so I can only offer what I've done and what has worked for me.

Short term: Regular gas with the ethanol in it . . . if I had my druthers I wouldn't have ethanol . . . but it seems like it's here t stay and I'm not going to drive miles away for very expensive gas when the gas station is a mile away. So far, no issues. As mentioned, not that it effects the ethanol, but going with the manufacturer requirements for octane level is good. 

Long term: Regular gas with the ethanol in it . . . with an added stabilizer. I've used StarTron in the past . . . just started using some PhaseOut that I picked up. I'm still not sure if it's just magic beans or if these stabilizers actually work . . . but for the price and peace of mind it works for me. I've also read here that your higher end two-stroke mixing oils have a stabilizer in them which, if true, should work for your saw.

My results -- no issues in all of the years that ethanol has been here. If I had some older engines I might be more concerned as I have read stories of the ethanol eating up old rubber gaskets, hoses, etc. and cleaning out the varnish in gas tanks and gumming things up . . . but again . . . this is older equipment.


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## woodsmaster (May 17, 2015)

The problem with ethanol from my understanding is it makes rubber parts soft and also draws moisture.... I,ve heard of ethanol shield additive, but can't seem to find it in the store. I bought some stabilizer and high octane gas for now.


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## Corey (May 17, 2015)

firefighterjake said:


> ... a bevy of small engines running the gamut from a weedbeater to a snowmobile and everything in between (which would include a generator, chainsaw, push lawn mower, riding mower, ATV and power washer) . . .
> 
> Short term: Regular gas with the ethanol in it . . .
> 
> ...



Mirrors my experience, and I suspect the vast majority of small engine owners as well.  There is certainly no shortage of chatter on how insidiously bad ethanol is...of course, most often followed by a sales pitch for an additive ...or a list of 'damaged' items and a steep bill from the mechanic.

"Way back when..." it seemed like we'd go through 3-4 bottles of "Heet" every year keeping water out of the various equipment and vehicles.  Now that "Heet" is essentially 'built in' to the fuel via ethanol, and modern fuel systems are more tightly sealed, I don't remember when I bought the last separate bottle.


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## CountryBoy19 (May 18, 2015)

DougA said:


> No, but if there are no pumps in your area that are ethanol free (such as my area), high octane will run better in 2 stroke engines.  EVERY Stihl dealer and every equipment rental dealer in our area tell every customer to use high octane gas ONLY.  If you do not want to buy the expensive pre-mix, then high octane is the answer.
> If you live in an area where you can buy gas without ethanol, then you could probably use regular gas.  I don't know as I doubt I will ever have that choice.  The ethanol lobby is still strong in Ontario.


Like he said, Octane is an ENTIRELY separate issue. The only relation they have is that ethanol is an octane booster and if you have access to a E-free gas it's most often premium (high octane) but that isn't really a connection between the two, just a nature of the fuel markets & fuel stations and how they work. Most OPE/saw manufacturers recommend 89 minimum octane (some higher yet).


blades said:


> Ethanol also make our engines run at an elevated temp as compared to  straight petrol- another hitch in the get-a-long.


If your engines are running hotter it's likely because you didn't adjust for the lower BTU content of ethanol blended fuels and you are actually running LEANER, which causes the engine to run hotter. Properly adjust your AFR and the problem will disappear. Using that as a comparison, or "bashing point" of ethanol blends is a bit disingenuous.



blades said:


> Like a carbonated drink that has been open and re-closed it goes flat in a short amount of time + leaving deposits in its wake that plug things up.


Ethanol goes flat? Please, show me some credible evidence of such a radical claim... this could get interesting...

I'll disregard the rest of your comments; some of them are irrelevant to this discussion, some of them are liable to incite a riot, and believe it or not, I believe some of them are true...




firefighterjake said:


> My results -- no issues in all of the years that ethanol has been here. If I had some older engines I might be more concerned as I have read stories of the ethanol eating up old rubber gaskets, hoses, etc. and cleaning out the varnish in gas tanks and gumming things up . . . but again . . . this is older equipment.


 
I've had the same results: no problems. I believe the ethanol hatred all stems from a few very simple problems, all of which can be corrected or avoid (some more cheaply than others)

#1 Ethanol is a solvent: regular gas (e-free) DOES leave varnish deposits on fuel systems. Years of those deposits built up, and then ethanol fuels came along, broke those deposits down and flushed them into places where they could wreak havoc on the fuel delivery system. That isn't a "fault" of ethanol, it is a side-effect of switching to a fuel that cleans the fuel system AS it works.

#2 Ethanol can break down some rubbers and plastics: On older vehicles these non compatible rubbers etc would break down and lead to a costly repair bill. Don't run ethanol blends if you think your fuel system may have this problem. That being said, just about ALL cars on the road today have compatible fuel systems, they've been making them that way since he 80's...

#3 Ethanol has a lower BTU content per gallon: If the carb/fuel system isn't adjusted for this it will run lean which means it will run hot and possibly cause damage. Take a moment to comprehend the issue, make adjustments, and you shouldn't have any problems.

#4 Ethanol is a solvent: it can, in some limited circumstances, cause lubrication issues because it can remove lubricants. That is a NON issue today because 2-stroke oils are compatible and there is a continuous supply of oil mixed in the gas so the solvent nature of ethanol actually acts as a good delivery system for the lubricant vice removing it.

IMHO: the issues of ethanol based corrosion, ethanol drawing moisture (to the point of phase-separation), and ethanol evaporating away faster are all OVERBLOWN; the reason this is even an issue is because of poor fuel storage. Blame the true cause, you (being anybody that doesn't properly store fuel) are too lazy to properly store your fuel or you've been misled by lore/rumor and are not storing your fuel properly which causes issues; grow up and store your fuel like a big boy and you won't have those issues.

#1 rule to storing any fuel is to store in in an air-tight container. ANY fuel, whether it contains ethanol or not, will lose it's more volatile fractions if left in an open air container. I suspect this would be the above "going flat" comment. That happens with gas too. The "problem" occurs when the ethanol is that volatile fraction because it is also the primary octane boosting component in the fuel and therefore when it's gone you end up with VERY low octane fuel. Store in an air-tight container and you won't lose that. Guess what! When you store in an airtight container it can't draw moisture either.... it's a win-win.

FWIW, I've stored ethanol blend fuels for well over 2 years in an airtight container in my shed and NEVER had any issues.


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## Ashful (May 18, 2015)

CountryBoy19 said:


> #2 Ethanol can break down some rubbers and plastics: On older vehicles these non compatible rubbers etc would break down and lead to a costly repair bill. Don't run ethanol blends if you think your fuel system may have this problem. That being said, just about ALL cars on the road today have compatible fuel systems, they've been making them that way since he 80's...


Great post, however, my personal experience does not agree with all engines made after 1980's using ethanol-complaint fuel lines.  I went most of my 40+ year life without ever replacing a fuel line on any piece of OPE, but I've had FOUR fuel lines fail on me in the last two years (actually... three in the last year).  Given the claims that ethanol attacks the materials used in some fuel lines, I have to assume there is a connection.


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## CountryBoy19 (May 18, 2015)

Ashful said:


> Great post, however, my personal experience does not agree with all engines made after 1980's using ethanol-complaint fuel lines.  I went most of my 40+ year life without ever replacing a fuel line on any piece of OPE, but I've had FOUR fuel lines fail on me in the last two years (actually... three in the last year).  Given the claims that ethanol attacks the materials used in some fuel lines, I have to assume there is a connection.


Correct, "just about ALL cars" was my statement. Unfortunately, small engine manufacturers and OPE manufacturers were late to the party in switching to ethanol compatible fuel systems and we pay for it.

That being said, fuel lines and other fuel system components do experience wear & tear and normal break-down whether ethanol is present in the fuel or not. I think nowadays ethanol gets blamed for EVERY fuel system failure, EVERY bad fuel line, etc, when in fact, in a great number of those situations it may have been just normal wear and tear & age that caused the failure.

Is ethanol to blame for some problems? Yes, absolutely! Is it to blame for all the problems that get blamed on it? No way It's very important to know the characteristics of ethanol and HOW it causes problems so that we can take corrective action.

All fuels have problems, ethanol just has different problems that throws some people off for some reason. So while it cures numerous other fuel system problems, it does cause a few others, and apparently that makes it evil. I personally believe the problems CAUSED by ethanol are more easily corrected or adjusted for than the problems caused by other fuels (water in the fuel, varnish in the tank and on fuel system parts etc).

I neither love, nor hate ethanol. I simply recognize that it does have some advantages over e-free gasoline, but also has some additional limitations. I adjust my usage according to the fuel I'm using and I don't have any problems. I use e-free gas in my OPE, not because ethanol is evil, but because e-free gets me just a few more BTU's so I don't have to cut the limit tabs on my carbs to get my engines to run cool/proper. I still use ethanol occasionally to keep the fuel system cleaned of deposits/varnishes that may be left by normal gas...


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## blades (May 19, 2015)

sorry you do not like the term flat - "ethanol evaporates" there fixed it. imo it is still a  .... sorry way to increase octane, ya, maybe better than the particular lead derivative that was used back in the day.  I have proper containers still has problems.  Unless I spend even more for stabilizers.  Ethanol in long term storage separates from the petroleum base.  Must be true I read it and seen the pictures on the internet .   Now they are messing with my diesel fuel. Pullin the sulfur out ( dang boy, its a lubricant) next thing ya no they will be pullin  it out of my free machining steel as well


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## DougA (May 19, 2015)

blades said:


> Now they are messing with my diesel fuel.


Don't forget that diesel fuel changes the formulation from winter to summer (at least where I live).  I've had that problem with summer fuel in the tank plowing the driveway because I don't go through very much in the fall and early winter. It gels up in the fuel filters.  I put in an additive for the tractor in the winter and problem gone.  $5. per winter in pretty cheap to keep things running.


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## Wildo (May 19, 2015)

Don't forget  they put ethanol in diesel too.


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## Ashful (May 19, 2015)

DougA said:


> Don't forget that diesel fuel changes the formulation from winter to summer (at least where I live).  I've had that problem with summer fuel in the tank plowing the driveway because I don't go through very much in the fall and early winter. It gels up in the fuel filters.  I put in an additive for the tractor in the winter and problem gone.  $5. per winter in pretty cheap to keep things running.


It has probably become more sophisticated over the years, but this summer/winter diesel thing used to be just about varying the paraffin content.  Can't run high paraffin in winter, as it gums up at cold temps.


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## colin.p (May 20, 2015)

I love threads like this. Very informative without all the mud-slinging that sometimes develops. Definitely will watch this thread, and hopefully will come away a little smarter too.


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## CountryBoy19 (May 20, 2015)

blades said:


> sorry you do not like the term flat -


 It's not that I don't like the term "flat", it's that its VERY ambiguous and likens fuels to carbonated beverages. Fuels don't have any carbonation to lose, how can they go flat? What exactly is going flat? Using that term opens up more questions than it answers because of the ambiguity.



blades said:


> "ethanol *all fuels* evaporates" there fixed it.


I fixed your "fix"... all fuels evaporate, it doesn't matter what is in it. They just evaporate at different rates. I hate to tell you this but the more volatile fractions of gasoline don't include ethanol, it's the butane and similar compounds that evaporate first. If your fuel is having problems due to ethanol evaporation you are either keeping it around in marginal containers for extended periods of time or you're keeping it in down-right terrible containers. Before any appreciable amount of the ethanol evaporates all of the other, more volatile stuff must evaporate first, that takes time.



blades said:


> imo it is still a  .... sorry way to increase octane, ya, maybe better than the particular lead derivative that was used back in the day.


We'll agree to disagree then; I think it's a fine octane booster...



blades said:


> I have proper containers still has problems.  Unless I spend even more for stabilizers.


What containers are you using? I don't have problems with my containers and I'm using standard Midwest Industries 5 gallon cans with aftermarket EZ-pour spouts. I do NOT use the tank vents that come with the spouts though because they don't maintain pressure, which allows the volatile fractions of the gas to evaporate off.

I also store, longer term, in 55 gallon oil drums. I don't have any problems with those even storing ethanol blends for over 2 years.



blades said:


> Ethanol in long term storage separates from the petroleum base.


Ethanol that has taken on so much moisture that it can no longer remain soluble will separate. It's called phase-separation, it only happens when the ethanol has taken on a significant amount of water, which points back to storage issues. That being said, it's still better than e-free gas. E-free gas cannot tolerate any water, it will separate out instantly, whereas ethanol blends have some tolerance for moisture. It's all perspective and relativity; I look at it from the angle of: Ethanol gets me a built-in heet product that prevents the problems of years past where water in the fuel system would cause problems.



blades said:


> Now they are messing with my diesel fuel. Pullin the sulfur out ( dang boy, its a lubricant) next thing ya no they will be pullin  it out of my free machining steel as well


We can agree on that. Removing a crucial lubricant from diesel is asinine, leave it up to the EPA to determine what is best for us... That being said, biodiesel is a good substitute for the lubrication provided by the sulfur; unfortunately biodiesel comes with it's own set of downsides...

RE: free machining steels, I think we have some time before that happens, but it's pretty darn hard to find high-sulfur cutting oil as it is. I'm more worried about continuing to find that. I only know of 1 reliable source for it and that's online...


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## CountryBoy19 (May 20, 2015)

Wildo said:


> Don't forget  they put ethanol in diesel too.


 Seems to be some controversy on if they actually do that... and if so, it seems to be a regional thing (not in all areas).

That being said, from what I found, ethanol can be substituted for methanol in the transesterification process of making biodiesel. Because ethanol doesn't have the corrosive properties of methanol and it's cheaper to just buy more ethanol vs. wash it from the fuel and distill it for re-use (what they do with methanol), and it "can" run in a diesel engine, some biodiesel manufacturers may be leaving it in the fuel.


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## jeff_t (May 31, 2015)

CountryBoy19 said:


> Removing a crucial lubricant from diesel is asinine, leave it up to the EPA to determine what is best for us... That being said, biodiesel is a good substitute for the lubrication provided by the sulfur; unfortunately biodiesel comes with it's own set of downsides...



I had an 01 Dodge that would occasionally buck and stumble, blow out a bunch of blue smoke, and not get over 1600 rpms, and then smooth out. A trip to the Meijer gas station and a tank of B20 would make this disappear for a couple of weeks. I thought it was coincidence the first time, but after the second and third tanks made it run fine...

I could have had the injector pump replaced under warranty, the codes were there. I don't know much about the VP44, but my guess is there was something in there that the added lubricity of the B20 made all better.

I sold the truck a few months later to some punk kid, and I'm sure he immediately voided any remaining engine warranty.


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## Ashful (May 31, 2015)

I have an '05 Dodge with a gas engine that doesn't always idle well, and often stalls when it's not even in gear (eg. push clutch in to stop at traffic light, and it just stalls as I'm coasting to a stop).  It's been that way since I drove it off the lot in 2005, and their tech's have never been able to solve the issue.  I blame Dodge, not the gas.


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## jeff_t (May 31, 2015)

Ya, most of the injector pump issues with the '98.5-'02s came from Dodge mounting a lift pump, designed to push not pull, on the engine instead of next to or in the fuel tank. Lift pump failure leads to injector pump failure. Nothing to do with fuel, Cummins, or Bosch. Well, maybe ULSD played a role in my case, but no additive would make any difference, only biodiesel.


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## johneh (May 31, 2015)

Try this web site for ethanol free fuel
In Ontario all Shell and Ultramar high test 91 octane fuel is ethanol  free
http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp


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## woodsmaster (Jun 3, 2015)

looks like mostly marinas,and none close. I'll see if the local airport will sell me fuel.


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## Rossco (Jun 3, 2015)

johneh said:


> Try this web site for ethanol free fuel
> In Ontario all Shell and Ultramar high test 91 octane fuel is ethanol  free
> http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp



Thanks for that link. It appears my favourite Gas station is 'E' free. 

Also 7% cheaper.


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