# Stock Up People !!!!



## Dix (Apr 28, 2022)

Taken from my oil supplier about 15 minutes ago  


Delivery Quantity(GAL)​Price/GAL($)​25.0 - 49.9​$6.519​50.0 - 74.9​$5.959​75.0 - 99.9​$5.769​100.0 - 149.9​$5.619​150.0 - 199.9​$5.569​200.0 - 299.9​$5.519​300.0 - 399.9​$5.499​400.0 - 499.9​$5.479​500.0 - 899.9​$5.459​900.0 - 2999.9​$5.449​

IMPORTANT PRICING INFORMATION:


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## EatenByLimestone (Apr 28, 2022)

Ouch!   Get that firewood up!


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## Dix (Apr 28, 2022)

Just ordered another 2 cord!

Screw this!


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## stoveliker (Apr 28, 2022)

3 weeks ago 4.49 per gallon. I ordered 100 gallons (for my hot water, first order since June 1 2021..) for 4.79 Monday. Mine now says 5.49 per gallon for 100 gallons.


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## kennyp2339 (Apr 29, 2022)

Yuck, I fill my 250gal oil tank every other year...and guess what, this is my fill year lol, waiting for July when prices are usually historically low, will need approx 200gal and in my area thats the cut off for the price reduction. 
As far as wood... I'm dont have to touch an axe or saw for another 5 years, but I will occasionally put-up wood just to keep up with the work.


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## peakbagger (Apr 29, 2022)

I have two 275 gallon tanks with about 150 gallons I do not use except for backup. I have dosed it with Biobore because its sits for so long. I have been considering removing both and putting in a 200 gallon Roth type tank. The two tanks were useful long ago prior to me burning wood and the installation of thermal storage. It was handy as I would only need to fill them once a year.. GIven what is going on in the world my guess is I am glad I do not need to fill them this year.


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## EatenByLimestone (Apr 29, 2022)

It just occurred to me that on road diesel is cheaper than a 250gal fill up of heating oil.   I wonder what kero is?


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## stoveliker (Apr 29, 2022)

I've wondered about the same. Is that due to delivery cost?


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## NewGuy132 (Apr 29, 2022)

Think I paid $5.50 a gallon right when everything went up.  I have about 1/2 a tank left.  I have been thinking about getting some yellow gas cans and just getting 20 gallons or so from the gas station here and there to carry me over.


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## EatenByLimestone (Apr 29, 2022)

When I was about ready to switch to NG I had to buy diesel and kero to get me past heating season.   

It really shouldn’t be higher.   There aren’t road taxes,


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## tabner (Apr 29, 2022)

I know it's selfish of me, but I can't help rooting for it to rise.  The higher that price goes, the quicker my woodstove/heatpump conversion pays for itself.


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## showrguy (Apr 29, 2022)

It’s Putins fault….

It’s the Oil company’s fault….

If you guy’s would all just buy an Electric Vehicle everything would be fabulous


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## EbS-P (Apr 29, 2022)

Any one checked the price of eggs it doubled here las week.    It’s all going up.


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## kennyp2339 (Apr 29, 2022)

My neighbor is 89yrs old and grew up as a poor farm kid in the depression era, then went through wwII rationing, he says you don't know what poor is unless you lived through the times him and his siblings went through. Every time he hears me outside working he'll come out and if I'm splitting he'll always comment about worth, "you can tell a mans worth by the size of his wood pile"


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## snobuilder (Apr 29, 2022)

This brings up another discussion. Why, as a country, are we not doing everything possible to deliver cheap, clean burning , small footpirnt NATURAL GAS into as many areas as humanly possible????

It uses the lowest amount of minerals to produce as ANY energy source ....green or not.....available today.


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## bholler (Apr 29, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> This brings up another discussion. Why, as a country, are we not doing everything possible to deliver cheap, clean burning , small footpirnt NATURAL GAS into as many areas as humanly possible????
> 
> It uses the lowest amount of minerals to produce as ANY energy source ....green or not.....available today.


Because that would reduce profits for oil and gas companies.

And again that claim simply is not true.


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## snobuilder (Apr 29, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> Any one checked the price of eggs it doubled here las week.    It’s all going up.


 Paid $.99 a dozen here in WI yesterday


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## snobuilder (Apr 29, 2022)

bholler said:


> Because that would reduce profits for oil and gas companies.
> 
> And again that claim simply is not true.


absolutely true.
if not , what uses less minerals to produce?









__





						Production of minerals used in clean energy expected to skyrocket by 2050
					

The World Bank estimates production of critical minerals used in clean energy will increase 500% by 2050 to meet demand for new technologies.




					www.nsenergybusiness.com


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## Ashful (Apr 29, 2022)

My parents' house had a 1500 gallon oil tank.  We don't own it anymore, but I sure do hope the new owners filled that vessel back in December, before the prices really rocketed up.



snobuilder said:


> This brings up another discussion. Why, as a country, are we not doing everything possible to deliver cheap, clean burning , small footpirnt NATURAL GAS into as many areas as humanly possible????



Infrastructure is not profitable.  Capitalism has built the greatest society(ies) on earth, but it's piss poor at social infrastructure.



bholler said:


> Because that would reduce profits for oil and gas companies.



True, but I think that's only part of the equation.  Oil companies be damned, if someone could be making money at it, you'd see it happen.


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## snobuilder (Apr 29, 2022)

Ashful said:


> My parents' house had a 1500 gallon oil tank.  We don't own it anymore, but I sure do hope the new owners filled that vessel back in December, before the prices really rocketed up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 unless big green energy with big government backing wants only so called "green " energy to succeed.


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## bholler (Apr 29, 2022)

Ashful said:


> My parents' house had a 1500 gallon oil tank.  We don't own it anymore, but I sure do hope the new owners filled that vessel back in December, before the prices really rocketed up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes that was my point.  If it was profitable it would be done


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## bholler (Apr 29, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> unless big green energy with big government backing wants only so called "green " energy to succeed.


If there was money to be made it would be done.


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## bholler (Apr 29, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> absolutely true.
> if not , what uses less minerals to produce?
> 
> View attachment 295184
> ...


That chart says it is referring to "building energy machines"  that really has very little to do with minerals consumed to heat a home.   Or the amount of energy produced over the lifetime of that machine.


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## bholler (Apr 29, 2022)

And for the record I have no issue at all with natural gas.  I think it is a great fuel to get us through until alternative options are more viable.   We should without a doubt be working towards phasing out fossil fuels.  But we aren't there yet.


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## Dix (Apr 29, 2022)

I'm thinking about putting the 13 back into use, at least part time. Firewood is still low here, cut/split/delivered. $300 for 2 semi seasoned cord. 

Also thinking about adding polyglycol to the OHW baseboard pipes for insurance.  Thoughts on that?


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## bholler (Apr 29, 2022)

Dix said:


> I'm thinking about putting the 13 back into use, at least part time. Firewood is still low here, cut/split/delivered. $300 for 2 semi seasoned cord.
> 
> Also thinking about adding polyglycol to the OHW baseboard pipes for insurance.  Thoughts on that?


The need for antifreeze really depends on where the lines are run.  In most cases it isn't nessecary


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## Dix (Apr 29, 2022)

bholler said:


> The need for antifreeze really depends on where the lines are run.  In most cases it isn't nessecary



The ones that froze were all on outside walls. The farthest from the 13, and the PE is on an upper level, so no help there.


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## bholler (Apr 29, 2022)

Dix said:


> The ones that froze were all on outside walls. The farthest from the 13, and the PE is on an upper level, so no help there.


If you have already had issues then it's probably a good idea


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## begreen (Apr 29, 2022)

Dix said:


> Taken from my oil supplier about 15 minutes ago
> 
> ​
> Delivery Quantity(GAL)​Price/GAL($)​25.0 - 49.9​$6.519​50.0 - 74.9​$5.959​75.0 - 99.9​$5.769​100.0 - 149.9​$5.619​150.0 - 199.9​$5.569​200.0 - 299.9​$5.519​300.0 - 399.9​$5.499​400.0 - 499.9​$5.479​500.0 - 899.9​$5.459​900.0 - 2999.9​$5.449​
> ...


Meanwhile, Exxon doubled its profits in Q1 from a year ago. Chevron wasn't far behind. This is not inflation, it's extortion.









						Exxon, Chevron post massive Q1 profits amid soaring gas prices
					

Energy giants Chevron Corp. and Exxon Mobil Corp. on Friday posted huge profits bolstered by sky-high gas prices and told investors that they plan to keep oil production mostly flat. Chevron raked in $6.3 billion in the first quarter, quadrupling its profit from the same period last year, while...




					news.yahoo.com


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## ABMax24 (Apr 30, 2022)

begreen said:


> Meanwhile, Exxon doubled its profits in Q1 from a year ago. Chevron wasn't far behind. This is not inflation, it's extortion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm sure domestic producers would have gladly drilled more wells, built more pipelines, built more refineries to produce more and lower oil prices. But at every step of the way there has been restrictions on new development permitting, restrictions and outright refusal by banks to loan money, moritoriums on new oil and gas development.

Environmentalists have been pushing for reduced use of fossil fuels for years, including increasing the costs of them to make their use prohibitive. Yes oil companies have used this strategy to their advantage, but they're not going to willingly give anyone a break, especially not when there has been a concerted effort to bankrupt them over the last decade.


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## brenndatomu (Apr 30, 2022)

bholler said:


> phasing out fossil fuels. But we aren't there yet.


Not even close.


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## stoveliker (Apr 30, 2022)

That may be true, but that does not take away that the current situation has been used for extortion. Given the record profits there is no reason to jack up the prices so much. Yes, prices increase due to the situation in the world. But not to this level.

On a local level, heating oil is now 5.99 for 100-150 gallons here. Diesel is 5.75 a gallon including far higher taxes.


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## bholler (Apr 30, 2022)

ABMax24 said:


> I'm sure domestic producers would have gladly drilled more wells, built more pipelines, built more refineries to produce more and lower oil prices. But at every step of the way there has been restrictions on new development permitting, restrictions and outright refusal by banks to loan money, moritoriums on new oil and gas development.
> 
> Environmentalists have been pushing for reduced use of fossil fuels for years, including increasing the costs of them to make their use prohibitive. Yes oil companies have used this strategy to their advantage, but they're not going to willingly give anyone a break, especially not when there has been a concerted effort to bankrupt them over the last decade.


The problem is they didn't.  They cut back to drive prices up to increase their profits.


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## bholler (Apr 30, 2022)

brenndatomu said:


> Not even close.


You are correct.  But many are resistant to any development of alternatives.  I get why oil companies are but for the general public to be resistant doesn't make sense to me


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## ABMax24 (Apr 30, 2022)

bholler said:


> The problem is they didn't.  They cut back to drive prices up to increase their profits.


Lol. Like everyone else did during Covid, due to uncertainty in the market and predicted low commodity prices?

Funny how we can have a discussion on here about lumber prices or any other prices increases and the blame can firmly be placed on supply chain issues, inflation, or increased demand or decreased supply. Yet none of those reasons can explain high oil prices, it's clearly due to extortion.


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## bholler (Apr 30, 2022)

ABMax24 said:


> Lol. Like everyone else did during Covid, due to uncertainty in the market and predicted low commodity prices?
> 
> Funny how we can have a discussion on here about lumber prices or any other prices increases and the blame can firmly be placed on supply chain issues, inflation, or increased demand or decreased supply. Yet none of those reasons can explain high oil prices, it's clearly due to extortion.


But for the most part the oil companies are the producer and supply chain.   And you have to look at the profit increases the oil companies have had.  What other industries have seen that percentage of profit increase?  I know ours is way down and we raised prices mainly due to increased fuel and freight costs.


Most other industries cut back due to shutdowns or issues getting material due to other shutdowns.


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## bholler (Apr 30, 2022)

Clearly there are lots of other factors contributing to oil and gas price increases beyond the control of oil companies.  But the could certainly help bring prices down if they wanted to.


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## ABMax24 (Apr 30, 2022)

bholler said:


> But for the most part the oil companies are the producer and supply chain.   And you have to look at the profit increases the oil companies have had.  What other industries have seen that percentage of profit increase?  I know ours is way down and we raised prices mainly due to increased fuel and freight costs.
> 
> 
> Most other industries cut back due to shutdowns or issues getting material due to other shutdowns.



Most lumber companies had their best year ever in 2021.

Many oil companies had significant losses in 2020 and early 2021, so it would be expected to see large profit increases when they return to profitability.


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## ABMax24 (Apr 30, 2022)

bholler said:


> Clearly there are lots of other factors contributing to oil and gas price increases beyond the control of oil companies.  But the could certainly help bring prices down if they wanted to.



You won't see that though. The writing is on the wall, oil companies are going to have a hard time financing future development with funds from outside sources. Oil companies are going to use these profits to pay down debt and buy back stocks to ensure their survival into the future.


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## begreen (Apr 30, 2022)

ABMax24 said:


> You won't see that though. The writing is on the wall, oil companies are going to have a hard time financing future development with funds from outside sources. Oil companies are going to use these profits to pay down debt and buy back stocks to ensure their survival into the future.


They are also investing deeply in plastics refining and manufacturing, especially in SE Asia. The goal is to increase the consumption of plastics and in turn oil and gas. The planet can not sustain this linear, extractive mentality. In the least, these companies should not be subsidized in the form of large tax breaks for MLPs, intangible drilling costs, royalty payment reductions (on fed lands), depletion allowances, & foreign tax credit.


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## bholler (Apr 30, 2022)

ABMax24 said:


> Most lumber companies had their best year ever in 2021.
> 
> Many oil companies had significant losses in 2020 and early 2021, so it would be expected to see large profit increases when they return to profitability.


Yes lumber companies were as bad if not worse than the oil companies.  That doesn't mean we should excuse the actions of either


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## bholler (Apr 30, 2022)

ABMax24 said:


> You won't see that though. The writing is on the wall, oil companies are going to have a hard time financing future development with funds from outside sources. Oil companies are going to use these profits to pay down debt and buy back stocks to ensure their survival into the future.


Yeah the poor oil companies. They could Be putting money into transitioning to alternatives as well if they really wanted to ensure their survival as well.


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## stoveliker (Apr 30, 2022)

... just like the writing was on the wall for stove companies when the discussions about EPA standards were ongoing...


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## brenndatomu (Apr 30, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> ... just like the writing was on the wall for stove companies when the discussions about EPA standards were ongoing...


Like these guys...they diversified into stinkin everything...no need to sweat the EPA anymore!  (that and just make all your burners "coal")








						Royall 6150 Residential Indoor Wood Boiler - 150,000 btu
					





					www.shoproyall.com


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## ABMax24 (Apr 30, 2022)

begreen said:


> They are also investing deeply in plastics refining and manufacturing, especially in SE Asia. The goal is to increase the consumption of plastics and in turn oil and gas. The planet can not sustain this linear, extractive mentality. In the least, these companies should not be subsidized in the form of large tax breaks for MLPs, intangible drilling costs, royalty payment reductions (on fed lands), depletion allowances, & foreign tax credit.



Yes plastics are a problem, but definitely not all oil companies are investing in plastics, or southeast Asia.

I don't have an issue with pulling the subsidies. If I'm not mistaken the value of the US subsidies works out to $60 per Capita per year, which overall is a large sum, but wouldn't bankrupt those companies.


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## ABMax24 (Apr 30, 2022)

bholler said:


> Yes lumber companies were as bad if not worse than the oil companies.  That doesn't mean we should excuse the actions of either



But many of these lumber companies have also struggled for the last decade due to low prices, others closed entirely. So I'm not sure how it's the fault of the mills that managed to remain.

It would be like me trying to fault you for installing a lot of wood stoves in a year with high propane prices and turning a higher than average profit. Obviously you can't control propane prices, and are just able to take advantage of the situation.



bholler said:


> Yeah the poor oil companies. They could Be putting money into transitioning to alternatives as well if they really wanted to ensure their survival as well.



Some are, at least many of the large Canadian firms are investing in renewables.

Oil companies are responsible to shareholders, who are ultimately seeking profits. The fact is oil and gas is more profitable than renewables. Until corporations exist for a purpose other than wealth generation this trend will continue, and I might add this is an issue universal to all corporations, not just oil and gas.


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## bholler (Apr 30, 2022)

ABMax24 said:


> But many of these lumber companies have also struggled for the last decade due to low prices, others closed entirely. So I'm not sure how it's the fault of the mills that managed to remain.
> 
> It would be like me trying to fault you for installing a lot of wood stoves in a year with high propane prices and turning a higher than average profit. Obviously you can't control propane prices, and are just able to take advantage of the situation.
> 
> ...


I absolutely agree it is a problem with all corporations in general but oil companies seem to be in a position where they can inflate the price of their product more than most. I don't fault anyone for making a profit.  It is when industries make a clear effort to inflate the price of their product that I take issue with.  

Yes if oil and gas prices increase I will sell more stoves.  But as long as I don't just double my price because I can due to demand I don't see an issue there.


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## fire_man (Apr 30, 2022)

"The cure for high oil prices is high oil prices"  does not seem to be working  this time.


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## ABMax24 (Apr 30, 2022)

bholler said:


> I absolutely agree it is a problem with all corporations in general but oil companies seem to be in a position where they can inflate the price of their product more than most. I don't fault anyone for making a profit.  It is when industries make a clear effort to inflate the price of their product that I take issue with.
> 
> Yes if oil and gas prices increase I will sell more stoves.  But as long as I don't just double my price because I can due to demand I don't see an issue there.



But it's not necessarily the oil company that sets the price, most pricing is now set by the big commodity exchanges. Diesel (and fuel oil) inventories are very low at the moment and has driven up prices. The result of transportation companies burning extra fuel trying to catch up with supply chain issues, and NA fuel being shipped to Europe to ease their shortages.

I get that people are frustrated with fuel prices, I'm not a fan of paying $1.65/liter for diesel either. But an oil company or retailer isn't going to sell me diesel for less than market rate when they can just sell it for market price elsewhere.


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## bholler (Apr 30, 2022)

ABMax24 said:


> But it's not necessarily the oil company that sets the price, most pricing is now set by the big commodity exchanges. Diesel (and fuel oil) inventories are very low at the moment and has driven up prices. The result of transportation companies burning extra fuel trying to catch up with supply chain issues, and NA fuel being shipped to Europe to ease their shortages.
> 
> I get that people are frustrated with fuel prices, I'm not a fan of paying $1.65/liter for diesel either. But an oil company or retailer isn't going to sell me diesel for less than market rate when they can just sell it for market price elsewhere.


No they don't set the price at all and I wouldn't expect them to sell below market value.  But they do control it by cutting production to drive up prices.


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## ABMax24 (Apr 30, 2022)

bholler said:


> No they don't set the price at all and I wouldn't expect them to sell below market value.  But they do control it by cutting production to drive up prices.



That generally only happens when oil prices are below that of production costs, which is a standard practice regardless of industry. But that's not the case right now.

Unless you're talking about groups like OPEC+ controlling production. But that also has nothing to do with the oil companies.

Back to my original post in this thread, if we want low oil prices and low fuel prices then let oil companies develop oil and gas. If we want to reduce carbon emissions then put restrictions on oil and gas companies, but beware this comes with increased oil and fuel costs.

There is no having our cake and eating it too. High oil prices directly correlate to a faster uptake of renewables. Low oils prices slow the development of renewables. So we can be frustrated at the slow adoption of renewables, or we can be frustrated with high oil prices, but not both.


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## bholler (Apr 30, 2022)

ABMax24 said:


> That generally only happens when oil prices are below that of production costs, which is a standard practice regardless of industry. But that's not the case right now.
> 
> Unless you're talking about groups like OPEC+ controlling production. But that also has nothing to do with the oil companies.
> 
> ...


I agree with allot of that.  But don't agree that they only do it when the price drops below production cost.  They do it when their profit increases aren't going to meet shareholder expectations.


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## showrguy (Apr 30, 2022)

bholler said:


> No they don't set the price at all and I wouldn't expect them to sell below market value.  But they do control it by cutting production to drive up prices.


We all know who cut production and drove the prices sky high, we just can’t say it out loud on here..
And if you think it was the Oil Industry, you musta bumped your head on a heavy wall insulated liner…. Lol


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## old greybeard (Apr 30, 2022)

Oil is a global commodity, with the international market setting the prices. Expecting US producers to sell at below market rates to the home market, instead of globally shows a lack of understanding of markets or responsibility to shareholders. Increase production, reduce demand will work. But with the current huge increases in carbon tax per ton by the administration, plus the federal lease freeze, why would they increase production when the global rates guarantee profits. Don’t like it, start your own oil production and sell it cheap. Or nationalize the market and watch us turn into Venezuela, tons of oil, have to import gasoline. 
Our NG s being blocked from easy export by nimby’s. It should be 3x what Americans pay. Do Americans appreciate that? Nope attack producers, attack fracking. 
Let’s tax the living crap out out of plastic. Let’s ban imports from countries that don’t meet our pollution standards, or human rights standards.  Pollution is the threat to our world, not climate change. Which imhop is just a power grab. Yet we give china a free pass on pollution, CO2 emissions and human abuses. Let’s not even  pretend that we are willing to sacrifice.


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## wishlist (May 1, 2022)

showrguy said:


> We all know who cut production and drove the prices sky high, we just can’t say it out loud on here..
> And if you think it was the Oil Industry, you musta bumped your head on a heavy wall insulated liner…. Lol


Didn’t bump my head but isn’t OPEC still way below pre covid production ?


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## begreen (May 1, 2022)

old greybeard said:


> Let’s tax the living crap out out of plastic. Let’s ban imports from countries that don’t meet our pollution standards, or human rights standards. Pollution is the threat to our world, not climate change. Which imhop is just a power grab. Yet we give china a free pass on pollution, CO2 emissions and human abuses. Let’s not even pretend that we are willing to sacrifice.


Watch this 3 part series, seriously. See where those doubts came from. Hear it from the people that sowed them and now greatly regret their role in this disinformation campaign. It's a power grab alright. One that has already happened.









						The Power of Big Oil | FRONTLINE
					

Watch FRONTLINE's three-part documentary examining the fossil fuel industry’s history of casting doubt and delaying action on climate change.



					www.pbs.org


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## snobuilder (May 1, 2022)

bholler said:


> If there was money to be made it would be done.


 Except for the nonsense of the greenies that thinks a solar array in my WI yard covered by snow on a cloudy day will deliver what I need. Its beyond the money. wind and solar are criminal in the minerals they gobble up vs the power they produce. TOTAL WASTE OF TIME AND TAX DOLLARS. $6 a gallon heating oil is criminal as well. pipe lines. boooooo. Why isn't there an all out effort to bring plentiful, clean burning natural gas to every community possible?. Take all the wasted and worthless  GREEN energy tax dollars and redirect it to NG delivery.


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## showrguy (May 1, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> Except for the nonsense of the greenies that thinks a solar array in my WI yard covered by snow on a cloudy day will deliver what I need. Its beyond the money. wind and solar are criminal in the minerals they gobble up vs the power they produce. TOTAL WASTE OF TIME AND TAX DOLLARS. $6 a gallon heating oil is criminal as well. pipe lines. boooooo. Why isn't there an all out effort to bring plentiful, clean burning natural gas to every community possible?. Take all the wasted and worthless  GREEN energy tax dollars and redirect it to NG delivery.


That is very well put 

In before the lock… lol


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## bholler (May 1, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> Except for the nonsense of the greenies that thinks a solar array in my WI yard covered by snow on a cloudy day will deliver what I need. Its beyond the money. wind and solar are criminal in the minerals they gobble up vs the power they produce. TOTAL WASTE OF TIME AND TAX DOLLARS. $6 a gallon heating oil is criminal as well. pipe lines. boooooo. Why isn't there an all out effort to bring plentiful, clean burning natural gas to every community possible?. Take all the wasted and worthless  GREEN energy tax dollars and redirect it to NG delivery.


And how much do we spend in tax breaks and incentives for oil and gas companies?  

Do a little research about how snow cover is dealt with on solar panels.   It clear you have done zero research and done care what the actual truth is.


Care to respond to my comments about your graph "proving"  gas uses the least ammout of minerals? 


I again am in no way implying that we are at all ready to eliminate fossil fuels at all.  That absolutely is not the case.  But why are you so against working towards alternatives?


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## brenndatomu (May 1, 2022)

bholler said:


> But why are you so against working towards alternatives?


I personally don't have a problem working toward it, at all...bring it! But my issue is having it crammed down our throats when anybody with even half a brain can see that we are nowhere close to ready to force it mainstream...which seems to be where things are headed here lately...


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## bholler (May 1, 2022)

brenndatomu said:


> I personally don't have a problem working toward it, at all...bring it! But my issue is having it crammed down our throats when anybody with even half a brain can see that we are nowhere close to ready to force it mainstream...which seems to be where things are headed here lately...


How exactly is it being crammed down our throats nationally?  There is the new law in NY which I absolutely think goes to far to fast and a few local ordinances.   But in general I don't see anything being forced on anyone


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## brenndatomu (May 1, 2022)

bholler said:


> How exactly is it being crammed down our throats nationally?  There is the new law in NY which I absolutely think goes to far to fast and a few local ordinances.   But in general I don't see anything being forced on anyone


Well, for one it starts in NY, and/or the left coast making new laws like that...and then auto makers making announcements that they will be all electric by XXXX date...which I guess is more like virtue signaling than forcing it down our throats...as when it comes right down to it, they will back off when things aren't working out...and therefore not selling...


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## bholler (May 1, 2022)

brenndatomu said:


> Well, for one it starts in NY, and/or the left coast making new laws like that...and then auto makers making announcements that they will be all electric by XXXX date...which I guess is more like virtue signaling than forcing it down our throats...as when it comes right down to it, they will back off when things aren't working out...and therefore not selling...


I honestly see that the ny law will cause to many problems quickly and won't be copied.   But who knows I could be wrong.


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## stoveliker (May 1, 2022)

brenndatomu said:


> Well, for one it starts in NY, and/or the left coast making new laws like that...and then auto makers making announcements that they will be all electric by XXXX date...which I guess is more like virtue signaling than forcing it down our throats...as when it comes right down to it, they will back off when things aren't working out...and therefore not selling...



But doesn't that (they backing out) mean that there is no "forcing"...?
That they *chose* to "virtue signal"? (and that apparently it pays them to cater to these wishes...? I.e. there is demand.)

Data, worldwide (so not US only):




__





						Fossil Fuels Received $5.9 Trillion In Subsidies in 2020, Report Finds
					






					e360.yale.edu
				











						Energy Transition Investment Hit $500 Billion in 2020 – For First Time | BloombergNEF
					

The world invested unprecedented amounts in low-carbon assets last year, from renewables to cleaner transport, energy storage to electric heat




					about.bnef.com
				




I could not find studies from the same institution for both numbers, so I don't know how accurate a comparison is here. Yale and Bloomberg are good enough for me.
However, it suggests a factor of 10 difference. Worldwide.

The far, far, far higher amount of tax dollars spent on fossil fuels as compared to other sources is hindering the following approach.

Regarding energy, I think we should do *all of the above, with the exception of coal* (and with a large nuclear component).
Why?
(Because coal is rather dirty and detrimental to the forested hill landscape that is in appalachia.)
Because diversification is safe (see current state of world affairs - and on a local scale, see my oil boiler, wood stove, solar panels and minisplit).
Because it allows folks to choose the energy resource that is most suitable (see solar in Northern Canada). It creates a palette/spectrum of energy resources that one can pick and choose from.
And so that all get to a price point that is economically feasible.

That price point should include for fossil fuels e.g. insurance for inhabitants of low lying areas (or, yes, subsidies to move them away from those areas), as that is also the cost of fossil fuels.  It should also include "mineral cost" (I'd say any non-renewable resource needed, e.g. anything mined) for all fuels.

However, the current skewed subsidization of fossil fuels hinders reaching a palette of energy sources whose mix actually works. There IS no unbiased picking from this spectrum of resources we have, because one has been pushed down our throat for a century and still gets boatloads of subsidies. The playing field is not equal.
In capitalism, a non-equal playing field will NEVER reach the optimum (spectrum of) solution(s).

Given the long, long track record of subsidies to fossil fuels, it's therefore in my view more than fair to subsidize renewable fuels for a while now to reach an even playing field. Currently fossil fuels have a 100 year head start. Let the rest catch up.

My $0.02


----------



## firefighterjake (May 2, 2022)

I used 89 gallons of heating oil last year. Granted it was a relatively mild winter . . . but that I believe is one of my best years in terms of heating oil usage.


----------



## bholler (May 2, 2022)

firefighterjake said:


> I used 89 gallons of heating oil last year. Granted it was a relatively mild winter . . . but that I believe is one of my best years in terms of heating oil usage.


That is roughly what I use as well


----------



## Ashful (May 2, 2022)

I’m at 970 gallons this year.  I used to lock in pricing for 1000 gallons each year in July/Aug, but got burned on it when prices dropped mid-winter a few years back.  Could’ve recouped that loss this year, if I had been on the ball, but life had been too busy and the savings in prior years too small to sweat it, at the time. 

On the plus side, I own a crap ton of Exxon stock, so…


----------



## snobuilder (May 2, 2022)

I agree with ending the wasted ethanol subsidies that use more fossil fuels to produce the ethanol than simply burning the dino oil to begin with.



Even if your 75.


----------



## bholler (May 2, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> I agree with ending the wasted ethanol subsidies that use more fossil fuels to produce the ethanol than simply burning the dino oil to begin with.
> 
> 
> 
> Even if your 75.


Well I agree with ending ethanol subsidies but not because it uses more fossil fuels to produce than it saves.  I think we should end subsidies on all energy options.  Including the massive amount we give to fossil fuels.


----------



## snobuilder (May 2, 2022)

bholler said:


> Well I agree with ending ethanol subsidies but not because it uses more fossil fuels to produce than it saves.  I think we should end subsidies on all energy options.  Including the massive amount we give to fossil fuels.


I have no problem with subsidizing things that actually work everytime without wasting time and effort just to make some politician and the greenie virtue signalers feel good about themselves as if they have an actual solution. Your argument that one subsidy justifies another isn't a solution , just an excuse for another feel good measure like solar and wind..

Like i said in another post. My NG furnace use costs has me wondering why I bother going through the wood processing effort.

Money (subsidies/tax dollars) well spent would be to get NG into as many communities as possible.

Here is something to ponder....why does the greater Phoenix area have to rely on 10 power plants  when they have the best chance of any area in the nation to make solar work without back up. If any area in the country has a chance at making alt energy work....why isn't it a reality this late in the game?

Sources of Arizona utility-scale electricity generation:
full year 2021 [1]

AZ  Power break down

Coal (13.2%)
  Natural Gas (44.4%)
  Hydroelectric (5.4%)
  Wind (1.5%)
  Nuclear (29.1%)
  Biomass (0.2%)
  Solar (6.2%) 


Not enough subsidies?🤣🤣


----------



## bholler (May 2, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> I have no problem with subsidizing things that actually work everytime without wasting time and effort just to make some politician and the greenie virtue signalers feel good about themselves as if they have an actual solution. Your argument that one subsidy justifies another isn't a solution , just an excuse for another feel good measure like solar and wind..
> 
> Like i said in another post. My NG furnace use costs has me wondering why I bother going through the wood processing effort.
> 
> ...


Not enough time.  And to much resistance to change in that state.

Solar works.  Wind works.  Hydro works.  Nuclear works.  There are lots of options to fossil fuels that work.  Yes each one has their strong points and weak points.  But saying they don't work simply because they havnt been adopted yet is just rediculous.

And yet again I have nothing against natural gas as a good option to get us through until alternatives are more feasible.  

But do you honestly have any clue how much it would cost to run natural gas lines in many rural areas????   I think you are drastically underestimating that cost.


----------



## bholler (May 2, 2022)

If alternatives don't work why are they the fastest growing segment of energy production in the US?  Even though only roughly 20% of energy subsidies went to them with 70% going to fossil fuels????    It just doesn't make sense.


And btw your example of Arizona is flawed because they are now one of the states with the fastest growing alternative energy systems.


----------



## stoveliker (May 2, 2022)

bholler said:


> But saying they don't work simply because they havnt been adopted yet is just rediculous.



Indeed. It has to do with the fact that an excrement-load of tax dollars have made other sources cheaper than they really are, thus economically blocking other feasible sources from taking their economically fair market share.


----------



## SpaceBus (May 2, 2022)

Diesel is $6.10/gal today. It cost me $95 to top up from a little over half, when that used to fill the whole tank.


----------



## snobuilder (May 2, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> Indeed. It has to do with the fact that an excrement-load of tax dollars have made other sources cheaper than they really are, thus economically blocking other feasible sources from taking their economically fair market share.


But without those excrement loads of subsidies for the fossil fuels used to create  and enable the fantasy of alt wind and solar energy....they both would be even more out of reach.

alt energy doesn't exist without the fossil fuel used to melt the minerals into the right shape.


----------



## bholler (May 2, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> But without those excrement loads of subsidies for the fossil fuels used to create  and enable the fantasy of alt wind and solar energy....they both would be even more out of reach.
> 
> alt energy doesn't exist without the fossil fuel used to melt the minerals into the right shape.


Yes that is true at this point for the most part.  But those products that are being made then go on to produce energy for decades.  Far far more than the energy used to produce them.

We get it we are still a country and world that relies heavily upon fossil fuels.  That isn't news to anyone.  But why is it a bad thing to develop alternatives that will make us more energy independent in the long run and pollute less?


Explain to us how alternatives which now make over 20% of our electricity and growing faster every year are a fantasy.


----------



## snobuilder (May 2, 2022)

bholler said:


> If alternatives don't work why are they the fastest growing segment of energy production in the US?  Even though only roughly 20% of energy subsidies went to them with 70% going to fossil fuels????    It just doesn't make sense.
> 
> *
> And btw your example of Arizona is flawed because they are now one of the states with the fastest growing alternative energy systems.*


 When will the first of the 10 power plants be shut down due to so called green energy completely replacing it?


----------



## snobuilder (May 2, 2022)

bholler said:


> *Explain to us how alternatives which now make over 20% of our electricity and growing faster every year are a fantasy.*


 20 %.....LOL ....Absolute nonsense.....can't even achieve that in sunny AZ


----------



## bholler (May 2, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> When will the first of the 10 power plants be shut down due to so called green energy completely replacing it?


Many have been shut down.   Do a little research.  Many others are idled much more often now because of the increased input from alternatives.


----------



## snobuilder (May 2, 2022)

bholler said:


> Many have been shut down.   Do a little research.  Many others are idled much more often now because of the increased input from alternatives.


 name one


----------



## bholler (May 2, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> Absolute nonsense.....can't even achieve that in sunny AZ


Not yet.  But they are one of the fastest growing markets.  And Incase you didn't notice I said alternatives not just solar.  That includes hydro wind solar and a few other minor contributors.


----------



## bholler (May 2, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> name one


Hundreds of coal plants have been shut down many of those were converted or replaced with natural gas.  But quite a few have not been.   Of the new electrical generation capacity being built only 16% are fossil fuel plants.   So coal plants closing all over but only 16% of new capacity comes from fossil fuel.  To me that is pretty clear.


----------



## SpaceBus (May 2, 2022)

coal has been falling out of favor for a century.


----------



## bholler (May 2, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> coal has been falling out of favor for a century.


Yes absolutely and that is a good thing.  And it is mostly due to natural gas.  But alternatives are quickly starting to take over the new capacity


----------



## SpaceBus (May 2, 2022)

bholler said:


> Yes absolutely and that is a good thing.  And it is mostly due to natural gas.  But alternatives are quickly starting to take over the new capacity


Pretty soon it won't even be used for iron/steel works either.


----------



## bholler (May 2, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> Pretty soon it won't even be used for iron/steel works either.


I think that is going to take a while.   The coal does more in the process than just supply heat.   Those things can be done through other processes but they cost more.  I agree it certainly will happen but I don't think it will be a quick transition


----------



## stoveliker (May 2, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> When will the first of the 10 power plants be shut down due to so called green energy completely replacing it?


Long Island. I could not find the data, i.e. this is only a newspaper, but here you go:








						LIPA: Green energy to dominate LI electric grid by 2030
					

Nearly 70% of Long Island's power will be generated by renewable energy sources including wind and solar by 2030 as LIPA prepares to retire aging fossil-fuel plants.



					www.newsday.com
				




Power demand on Long Island has been more or less flat for a while despite a growing population. (This is due to conservation measures such as LEDs, Energy Start appliances, and insulation.)
Peak demand will start to rise after 2028 (due to EVs). Nevertheless, fossil plants are being phased out.

For a flat demand, phasing out fossil plants simply means that there is no other explanation than (incorporating) renewables (in the system, including how to manage their variable generation capacity). (Because Nuclear is not increasing, I think - though I would encourage more nuclear - too.)


----------



## snobuilder (May 2, 2022)

One Wind Turbine Takes 900 Tons of Steel , 2500 Tons Of Concrete , 45 Tons of Plastic!
					

From WSJ If You Want ‘Renewable Energy,’ Get Ready to Dig Building one wind turbine requires 900 tons of steel, 2,500 tons of concrete and 45 tons of plastic. By Mark P. Mills Aug. 5, 2019 6:48 pm …




					peckford42.wordpress.com


----------



## stoveliker (May 2, 2022)

That is about a factor of three to five higher than other estimates...




__





						How many steel workers does it take to build a windmill?
					

No, this isn’t a knock knock joke. It’s an important question that probably isn’t asked often enough, because it illustrates how investing in green energy is often good for some of the country’s older, struggling industries too. The answer, according to the American Wind Energy Association, is...



					consumerenergyalliance.org
				












						Fact Check-Meme claiming that wind turbines are inefficient misquotes expert
					

A meme wrongly saying that wind turbines will never generate as much energy as was used to construct them misquotes a passage from an essay written by scientist David Hughes.




					www.reuters.com
				




Here they say 120-180 tons per.megawatt wind power:








						Steel is the power behind renewable energy | ArcelorMittal
					

Steel is the power behind renewable energy




					corporate.arcelormittal.com


----------



## bholler (May 3, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> One Wind Turbine Takes 900 Tons of Steel , 2500 Tons Of Concrete , 45 Tons of Plastic!
> 
> 
> From WSJ If You Want ‘Renewable Energy,’ Get Ready to Dig Building one wind turbine requires 900 tons of steel, 2,500 tons of concrete and 45 tons of plastic. By Mark P. Mills Aug. 5, 2019 6:48 pm …
> ...


Why doesn't that article contain and references saying where those numbers came from like most reputable articles do?


----------



## Ashful (May 3, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> coal has been falling out of favor for a century.


Dunno where you get that.  Western PA couldn't build coal-fired generation plants fast enough in the 1970's and 1980's, when in fact they built the then-world's largest coal-fired plant, to power the new induction furnaces at Bethlehem Steel's Johnstown PA plant.  Think four parallel tracks of railway, coal cars on a constant rotating shuffle, just to feed the beast.  Most of these plants are still in operation, but many are due to close before 2030, due to their wastewater and other issues.

With zero research on it, I would guess the peak in coal generation in this part of the country had to be somewhere around 1975 - 1980.


----------



## SpaceBus (May 3, 2022)

Ashful said:


> Dunno where you get that.  Western PA couldn't build coal-fired generation plants fast enough in the 1970's and 1980's, when in fact they built the then-world's largest coal-fired plant, to power the new induction furnaces at Bethlehem Steel's Johnstown PA plant.  Think four parallel tracks of railway, coal cars on a constant rotating shuffle, just to feed the beast.  Most of these plants are still in operation, but many are due to close before 2030, due to their wastewater and other issues.


PA is an outlier, WV was built on coal 100 years ago and is now a shell. There is also the rest of the world to consider. 

Coal has been falling out of favor for NG and petroleum for about a century. You are projecting something I didn't say. I simply said that coal has been falling out of favor for a century. This is true in the US and globally. NG and oil products are far more popular for about everything short of steel and iron works, for which coal has always been used (along side charcoal). Coal is the least popular fossil fuel, for obvious reasons, and has been very aggressively phased out recently. The oil embargo of the 70's drove some short term coal production, but that's nothing compared to the days before oil and NG started rapidly replacing it. Furthermore the successive Clean Air Acts starting in the 50's effectively sealed the fate for coal as a big time energy player.


----------



## snobuilder (May 3, 2022)

bholler said:


> Why doesn't that article contain and references saying where those numbers came from like most reputable articles do?


No worries, the ministry of truth will be along shortly to keep my mind right.


----------



## bholler (May 3, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> No worries, the ministry of truth will be along shortly to keep my mind right.


So you see no need to verify validity of the information you are basing your opinions upon with actual data? 

That explains allot


----------



## Ashful (May 3, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> PA is an outlier, WV was built on coal 100 years ago and is now a shell. There is also the rest of the world to consider.
> 
> Coal has been falling out of favor for NG and petroleum for about a century. You are projecting something I didn't say. I simply said that coal has been falling out of favor for a century. This is true in the US and globally. NG and oil products are far more popular for about everything short of steel and iron works, for which coal has always been used (along side charcoal). Coal is the least popular fossil fuel, for obvious reasons, and has been very aggressively phased out recently. The oil embargo of the 70's drove some short term coal production, but that's nothing compared to the days before oil and NG started rapidly replacing it. Furthermore the successive Clean Air Acts starting in the 50's effectively sealed the fate for coal as a big time energy player.


I appreciate the reply.  I guess it depends on your definition of "going out of favor", which I can see that author meant as a fraction of total energy consumption.

The reality is that, as clearly shown in the graph you linked, actual coal usage peaked around 2010 in the US.  That's when NG finally really pulled ahead of it to solidly take the #2 spot after petroleum, even later than I had suspected based on local observation.  Until then, NG and coal had been battling it out for 2nd place for much of the last 70 years, in the US.

The rest of the world?  laugh... we can barely manage what happens here.


----------



## brenndatomu (May 3, 2022)

bholler said:


> So you see no need to verify validity of the information you are basing your opinions upon with actual data?
> 
> That explains allot


Verifying validity is one thing, but trusting this administration to decide what is truth and what is not is like putting starved fox's in charge of Colonel Sanders hen house.


----------



## bholler (May 3, 2022)

brenndatomu said:


> Verifying validity is one thing, but trusting this administration to decide what is truth and what is not is like putting starved fox's in charge of Colonel Sanders hen house.


I am not saying anything about any administration.  All of this started before this administration took power anyway so I don't see how it enters into the equation.   And no I am not blaming the previous administration either.  This isn't a political issue no matter how much people try to make it one.

I am talking about looking at data from multiple sources to determine what the truth actually is instead of just relying upon what one person wrote in an editorial with no sources provided for the info.


----------



## brenndatomu (May 3, 2022)

bholler said:


> I am talking about looking at data from multiple sources to determine what the truth actually is instead of just relying upon what one person wrote in an editorial with no sources provided for the info.


Have no problem with that...makes sense 100%...but that is not what this "ministry of truth" intends to do (despite their claims) and anybody that thinks it is...boy do I have a real estate deal for you!


----------



## snobuilder (May 3, 2022)

bholler said:


> So you see no need to verify validity of the information you are basing your opinions upon with actual data?
> 
> That explains allot


Show me one place where all energy needs are being met by wind and solar at a 20% rate. It sure as heck won't work where I live. not to mention the obscene amount of non sustainable natural resources it will gobble up. 
Your wood stove isn't the only thing flaming.


----------



## snobuilder (May 3, 2022)

bholler said:


> I am not saying anything about any administration.  All of this started before this administration took power anyway so I don't see how it enters into the equation.   And no I am not blaming the previous administration either.  This isn't a political issue no matter how much people try to make it one.
> 
> I am talking about looking at data from multiple sources to determine what the truth actually is instead of just relying upon what one person wrote in an editorial with no sources provided for the info.


Who decides the "truth"?....yours or mine. How many ways can you twist a  simple word yet alone a statistic? 

One thing is for sure, we are ALL being manipulated and perhaps that is a flag we could unite behind.


----------



## bholler (May 3, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> Show me one place where all energy needs are being met by wind and solar at a 20% rate. It sure as heck won't work where I live. not to mention the obscene amount of non sustainable natural resources it will gobble up.


No one ever said just wind and solar.

And I love how you skip over the fact that in general alternative options use natural resources only when the device is constructed.  Fossil fuels use them the whole time.   But I guess that part doesn't count??


----------



## bholler (May 3, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> Who decides the "truth"?....yours or mine. How many ways can you twist a  simple word yet alone a statistic?
> 
> One thing is for sure, we are ALL being manipulated and perhaps that is a flag we could unite behind.


The truth is the truth yes it can be manipulated but that doesn't change the actual truth.


----------



## bholler (May 3, 2022)

brenndatomu said:


> Have no problem with that...makes sense 100%...but that is not what this "ministry of truth" intends to do (despite their claims) and anybody that thinks it is...boy do I have a real estate deal for you!


Again why does politics have to be part of the discussion?  Both sides lie and pick which facts to present to support their argument while calling the other side liars


----------



## bholler (May 3, 2022)

Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)
					






					www.eia.gov


----------



## snobuilder (May 3, 2022)

bholler said:


> No one ever said just wind and solar.
> 
> And I love how you skip over the fact that in general alternative options use natural resources only when the device is constructed.  Fossil fuels use them the whole time.   But I guess that part doesn't count??


Nothing ends with the construction of wind and solar.  The maintenance and then recycling of the used up units make them an overall loser as an energy producer.

Let alone what are 150 bald eagles worth.....I heard $8,000,000 when the turbines chop them up. What a conundrum for the earth savers. 









						Wind energy company kills 150 eagles in US, pleads guilty
					

A wind energy company has been sentenced to probation and ordered to pay more than $8 million in fines and restitution after at least 150 eagles were killed over the past decade at its wind farms across the U.S.




					abcnews.go.com


----------



## bholler (May 3, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> Nothing ends with the construction of wind and solar.  The maintenance and then recycling of the used up units make them an overall loser as an energy producer.
> 
> Let alone what are 150 bald eagles worth.....I heard $8,000,000 when the turbines chop them up. What a conundrum for the earth savers.


Sources???


----------



## snobuilder (May 3, 2022)

bholler said:


> Sources???











						Toxic Truth: Millions Of Solar Panels & Wind Turbine Blades Destined For Landfills
					

The so-called wind and solar ‘industries’ are barely out of nappies, and yet they’re already responsible for a smorgasbord of toxic waste. The magnets in wind turbine generators are made from neody…




					stopthesethings.com


----------



## bholler (May 3, 2022)

"Stop These Things" - SourceWatch
					






					www.sourcewatch.org
				







			Redirect Notice


----------



## stoveliker (May 3, 2022)

back to the topic: today it's $6.14999 per gallon heating oil here...
Gasoline is $4.19 when I filled up the wife's car (I did not check diesel...)

I was pissed that I had to pay $4.71 a few days after it was $4.49 - I'd been waiting for it to go down at the time as gasoline was going down thru $4 then. But oil kept going up. So I bit the bullet.
2 days later it was $4.99, then 2 days later $5.19 or so and now it's this.

Glad I did not wait any longer, or we would not have had hot water anymore (because I won't be paying $6.15 for a gallon, unless it's permanent like this, and then I'll buy a heat pump water heater).

Checked: Diesel is $6.50 a gallon...


----------



## bholler (May 3, 2022)

https://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/data-mine/2014/08/22/pecking-order-energys-toll-on-birds#:~:text=Oil%20and%20Gas%3A%20An%20estimated,in%20a%20December%202012%20memo.&text=Coal%3A%20Huge%20numbers%20of%20birds,Danish%20Center%20for%20Energy%20Technologies.
		










						We Know Fossil Fuels Are Bad for Animals, What About Wind and Solar?
					






					www.idausa.org
				





Why only tell the part of the story that supports your claims?


----------



## SpaceBus (May 3, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> back to the topic: today it's $6.14999 per gallon heating oil here...
> Gasoline is $4.19 when I filled up the wife's car (I did not check diesel...)
> 
> I was pissed that I had to pay $4.71 a few days after it was $4.49 - I'd been waiting for it to go down at the time as gasoline was going down thru $4 then. But oil kept going up. So I bit the bullet.
> ...


I'll be filling up my tractor and 5 gallon diesel cans tomorrow morning. Going to fill up the car and all of my gas cans as well before it gets expensive. I can use a gallon a day using the sawmill. It's high now, but I don't expect it to go down before it goes up again. I wish I had filled everything up a week or two ago at $5/gal for diesel!


----------



## stoveliker (May 3, 2022)

I do the same; we get a discount from "points" on our groceries, and that is valid up to 20 gallons. My wife's car takes about 12, so I take some cans with me and fill those, for the lawn mower (again; used last week the first time this year), blower, weed whacker etc, and a gallon here and there for my sipping tiny car that does not commute anymore.


----------



## bholler (May 3, 2022)

clancey said:


> Snobuilder-----I absolutely agree with your information that you presented. All I have to say is that bh would not know truth partial or whole if it bite him in the ---. clancey


Based upon what data?   Just because you want to believe something doesn't change the actual data or facts.


----------



## Ashful (May 3, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> I'll be filling up my tractor and 5 gallon diesel cans tomorrow morning. Going to fill up the car and all of my gas cans as well before it gets expensive. I can use a gallon a day using the sawmill. It's high now, but I don't expect it to go down before it goes up again. I wish I had filled everything up a week or two ago at $5/gal for diesel!


Mowing the lawn will not be cheap this year.  Then again, my Exxon stock is up 49.9% over this date last year.  

I wonder how this will affect boating this summer, both recreational and commercial fishing.  A displacement hull sucks a lot of fuel, pushing thru the water.


----------



## SpaceBus (May 4, 2022)

Ashful said:


> Mowing the lawn will not be cheap this year.  Then again, my Exxon stock is up 49.9% over this date last year.
> 
> I wonder how this will affect boating this summer, both recreational and commercial fishing.  A displacement hull sucks a lot of fuel, pushing thru the water.


We live on a secondary road that connects to "the" main road through our region and already we have heard way less 1/2 ton+ sized pickup trucks since gas went over $4/gal. It used to be near constant mud tires, loud exhaust, etc. but now it's just when they are going to work in the morning (mostly fishermen this time of year).


----------



## SpaceBus (May 4, 2022)

clancey said:


> Snobuilder-----I absolutely agree with your information that you presented. All I have to say is that bh would not know truth partial or whole if it bite him in the ---. clancey


Are you a climate scientist?


----------



## EbS-P (May 4, 2022)

Here are s a good read.  

Demand is high.  Supply of Low sulfur, crude and final products are tight.  Desulfurization is expensive.   Really no historical analog to current price spread gas vs diesel or crude vs diesel.    Does it sound familiar?  










						Why diesel prices are soaring beyond crude and gasoline, and are likely to continue that way
					

Diesel prices have been climbing much faster than gasoline or crude, and a prominent economist offers reasons why it is likely to continue.



					www.freightwaves.com


----------



## Ashful (May 4, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> Here are s a good read.
> 
> Demand is high.  Supply of Low sulfur, crude and final products are tight.  Desulfurization is expensive.   Really no historical analog to current price spread gas vs diesel or crude vs diesel.    Does it sound familiar?
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, Tier 4 equipment (even my tractor) specifies "Low Sulfur Diesel Only", right on the gas door.


----------



## woodgeek (May 4, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> Why isn't there an all out effort to bring plentiful, clean burning natural gas to every community possible?. Take all the wasted and worthless  GREEN energy tax dollars and redirect it to NG delivery.



I have really good news for you.  Natural gas energy IS already delivered to nearly every house in the country.  Its called electricity.  Lots of folks in the US (like 50%) use it for heat, not to mention AC in the summertime (which reduces the amount that would otherwise need to be stored).

In most cases  NG -> electricity -> heat pump -> BTUs is more efficient than direct combustion.

The US is already the world leader, by far, in natgas production:








						Natural Gas Production by Country - Worldometer
					

List of world countries by Yearly Natural Gas Production in million cubic feet (MMcf)




					www.worldometers.info
				




All that gas is a low-value byproduct of our massive oil production, and as the oil wells deplete, the amount of gas goes up, so we are awash in the stuff.  But then it is simply more profitable to turn it into electricity and sell that to people than to lay a leaky pipe into their homes so they can burn it a few months a year.

That's called capitalism.  Love it or leave it.

In my case, the gas main ends 50' from my driveway, and I was quoted $20,000 to get a nat gas hookup.  This was the last time HHO hit $5/gal (in 2007).  I opted to get a heat pump and burn electrons instead of a gas hookup.

If you want cheap fossil heat, have you looked at getting a coal stove?


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## SpaceBus (May 4, 2022)

woodgeek said:


> I have really good news for you.  Natural gas energy IS already delivered to nearly every house in the country.  Its called electricity.  Lots of folks in the US (like 50%) use it for heat, not to mention AC in the summertime (which reduces the amount that would otherwise need to be stored).
> 
> In most cases  NG -> electricity -> heat pump -> BTUs is more efficient than direct combustion.
> 
> ...


If coal didn't have the toxic heavy metal or sulfuric emissions I wouldn't mind having a coal stove myself.


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## begreen (May 4, 2022)

Before placing local blame, look at the international picture and the influence of OPEC+. (The plus is Russia)









						Opec: What is it and what is happening to oil prices?
					

The world's major oil exporters have agreed to cut production by two million barrels a day.



					www.bbc.com


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## showrguy (May 5, 2022)

woodgeek said:


> I have really good news for you.  Natural gas energy IS already delivered to nearly every house in the country.  Its called electricity.  Lots of folks in the US (like 50%) use it for heat, not to mention AC in the summertime (which reduces the amount that would otherwise need to be stored).
> 
> In most cases  NG -> electricity -> heat pump -> BTUs is more efficient than direct combustion.
> 
> ...


Ummm, Natural gas is also up almost 200% in the last year and a half..
That’s why electric rates keep growing big time !!


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## stoveliker (May 5, 2022)

Yes, but that was not the point made. The point was that electricity is made from NG, is delivered everywhere, and it's often more efficient using it with a heat pump than direct burning of NG. 
I.e. it's more heat out of the same (indeed more expensive these days) NG volume.

(@woodgeek, I presume this efficiency is due to the COP>1 of a heatpump beating the losses in the NG->electricity conversion and electric transport losses?)


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