# Anyone have a pellet boiler?



## Damammel (Nov 30, 2007)

I am looking into a pellet boiler and was wondering if anyone has recently installed the Harman PB105 with a storage tank.  I am wondering if the expense will be worth it in the long run.  I was also looking at the Tarm but it looks like an additional 3000.00 to purchase the boiler.  Also, are there any other vendors that make a good storage tank?  Again the Tarm tank is about 4500.00.  Any help or suggestions would be appreciated.


----------



## Alternate Heat (Dec 10, 2007)

I have a PB105, this is the second heating season.


----------



## Nofossil (Dec 10, 2007)

damammel said:
			
		

> I am looking into a pellet boiler and was wondering if anyone has recently installed the Harman PB105 with a storage tank.  I am wondering if the expense will be worth it in the long run.  I was also looking at the Tarm but it looks like an additional 3000.00 to purchase the boiler.  Also, are there any other vendors that make a good storage tank?  Again the Tarm tank is about 4500.00.  Any help or suggestions would be appreciated.



$4500 for the tank? That's pretty impressive. Even out here in the sticks, I found a bunch of stainless tanks in various sizes for under $1000 at local scrap dealers - I paid $400 for and 880 gallon unit, which is actually half of a milk 'bulk tank' - a common thing in a farming area. You can but a lot of extra parts and plumbing for $3500. Of course, you can't fit one through most basement doors, but they're a good choice if you're going to locate it outside.

Pictures on my web site - link below.


----------



## pbvermont (Dec 10, 2007)

make your own tank, just like the TARM one using building supply-store materials for about $700.  Its round, strong, tested, goes through a 28"-wide door and (when drained) breaks down and moves very easily.


----------



## Damammel (Dec 10, 2007)

Thank you for the replies.  The storage tank is for the extra heat storage.  I have not been able to find many people using pellet boilers.


----------



## Eric Johnson (Dec 10, 2007)

pbvermont said:
			
		

> make your own tank, just like the TARM one using building supply-store materials for about $700.  Its round, strong, tested, goes through a 28"-wide door and (when drained) breaks down and moves very easily.



I've always wondered, pv, how do you get the foam board to bend around the inside of the tank? Is it hard to do?


----------



## pbvermont (Dec 10, 2007)

this is one of the labor intensive aspects of the DIY tank:  tools: 1.)  4 foot sheetrock T-square, 2.) utility knife.
procedure: assuming you're using 1" thick foil board, use the T'square to make 4' long slits every 3" as you go along the 8' edge of the sheet.  THe utility knife will slit one side of the foil and much of the way through the 1" foam.  The foil on the UNSLIT side keeps the board intact and it will now curve in any degree radius you want.  You will want to do a double layer of 1" board on the top bottom and sides of your tank.  6 sheets=96 slits.  Done.


----------



## stephenmoore (Feb 23, 2008)

I have a Harman PB 105 in it's first season, in floor heat in 7 zones, 2500 sq feet, and one convector  rad zone. Using a teckmar controller to operate the injection system. Outdoor temp sensor is also active. Min water temp is 140, max is 185. Am burning about 2 bags a day, east coast winter about -2- -6 Celsius per day temp. Sysytem works great except that I am about to install my third igniter on the PB 105. Has anyone else had troubles with this ? Am un clear as to how often the igniter chamber needs to be cleaned ( located under the burn pot ) It seems to fill up with fly ash too quickly. Hope this info is useful. I am also pre heating my hot water heater with the Harman Domestic Hot water coil. Using premium pellets from Nova Scotia at about $4.50 per bag.


----------



## wdc1160 (Feb 23, 2008)

PB,  Do you try to keep any of the foil separated from touching other matierals.  I keep running into problems that occur when foil touches other insulators.  The foil apparently loses all of its radiation deflection abilities when it touches other things. 
Any comments?


----------



## Sting (Feb 23, 2008)

I heat almost 5000 sq feet of money pit with a Traeger boiler - used to burn corn - this year, burning wood pellets


----------



## Bob Rohr (Feb 24, 2008)

Do some math regarding the cost of pellets for fuel.  Figure 80% efficiency.  Pellets took a big jump around here, not such a good option considering the cost of the boiler, tank, and related piping, maybe.

LP actually dropped $.20 around here last week.  At $1.89 per gallon and 94% efficiency on a mod con, it's not a bad choice.

 hr


----------



## Sting (Feb 24, 2008)

master of sparks said:
			
		

> Do some math regarding the cost of pellets for fuel.  Figure 80% efficiency.  Pellets took a big jump around here, not such a good option considering the cost of the boiler, tank, and related piping, maybe.
> 
> LP actually dropped $.20 around here last week.  At $1.89 per gallon and 94% efficiency on a mod con, it's not a bad choice.
> 
> hr



I would be thrilled with 80

as a master - you better figure more like 70% smoking an old Traeger


----------



## webbie (Feb 24, 2008)

Agree that you would be real lucky to get 70% out of a Traeger. 

At $1.89 and 94%......LP would be.......about the same price as pellets at $230 a ton.


----------



## BrownianHeatingTech (Feb 27, 2008)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Agree that you would be real lucky to get 70% out of a Traeger.



Have you ever put actual instruments on a Traeger boiler?



			
				Webmaster said:
			
		

> At $1.89 and 94%......LP would be.......about the same price as pellets at $230 a ton.



At $1.89 / gallon for LP, you're at $20.69 per million btu.  At $230 per ton for pellets, you're at $14.02 per million btu.

Factor in efficiency (94 and 80) and you're at $22.02 per million btu for LP and $17.53 per million btu for pellets.  Even if your pellet boiler is running at 70% (get if fixed, if it is - that's not normal), you're at $20.03 per million btu.

Close, but no cigar.

Now figure that the actual system efficiency (not the meaningless AFUE) is 85% or less for the LP boiler, and 75% for the pellet boiler, and you're at $24.35 per million but for LP and $18.70 per million btu for pellets.

Of course, last I checked, LP was running around $2.40 per gallon, here, so it would be over $30 per million btu...

Joe


----------



## webbie (Feb 27, 2008)

I don't know system efficiencies of Pellet boilers, but the unit efficiency is probably 80%.

If I use Nofossils examples, they would probably be much less - that is, a wood boiler with a high efficiency ends up with 56% system. I assume the mileage will always vary, but as you said (Joe), only people using a tremendous amount of fuel end up seeing a big savings in most cases. 

Strangely enough, I created the first Traeger boiler! We contacted them back in 1990 or so (when I was Tarm) and sent them two of our 202 coal boilers which they modified for pellets....they then sent one back to us and we placed in the field. 

My take on the efficiency comes from the fact that Traeger (patented) mechanism was used in Earth Stove, which came in the lowest of all tested pellet stoves during an Omni field test - about 52%. I'm not saying the boiler or that a modern stove is that low, but the mechanism certainly has not changed much. So I'll guess at 70% rather than take the manufacturers or a sellers word for it. 70% (AFUE or equiv)  is a very good efficiency, IHMO - for something subject to the ins and outs of pellets fuel, corn, etc.


----------



## BrownianHeatingTech (Feb 27, 2008)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> My take on the efficiency comes from the fact that Traeger (patented) mechanism was used in Earth Stove, which came in the lowest of all tested pellet stoves during an Omni field test - about 52%. I'm not saying the boiler or that a modern stove is that low, but the mechanism certainly has not changed much. So I'll guess at 70% rather than take the manufacturers or a sellers word for it. 70% (AFUE or equiv)  is a very good efficiency, IHMO - for something subject to the ins and outs of pellets fuel, corn, etc.



The burner mechanism has little to do with the efficiency, beyond a certain point.

I can buy two brand-shiny-new oil boilers with identical burners on them, and get 87% AFUE from both.  But actual system efficiency on one will be 55% and the other will be 85%, because of the design of the boiler and controls.

As long as the burner is producing a clean burn at the right (high) temperature, that's really all you need from it.  Extracting the heat from the hot gasses that the burner produces is the job of the rest of the system.

Joe


----------



## Sting (Feb 27, 2008)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Strangely enough, I created the first Traeger boiler!



Your the god I have searched for! On corn I cannot run more than two of the three feed cups - I just cannot burn more than 8 lbs of corn per hour in any of my pots. It just will not burn more corn. 






At the GPM thru the vessel I get ALMOST 60,000 btu from an appliance rated at 130,000. Factor that I am only running on 2/3 feed potential the math says 70%

I can run all three feed cups and smoke 12 pounds per hour of good wood pellets in ONE of my multi fuel pots. The others I cannot get enough air in - the fire is too rich and cooler than this pot. Factoring my GPM thru against Delta T it may be operating at 75%
At my current cos to pellets by the truckload - I am heating for 15% less on pellets than on similar production with NG - too bad for me  -last year on 70 a ton corn that was a far better ROI - but I got - so I burn it - as long as it doesn't cost me money. 

In mild weather pellets run flawlessly with one feed cup blocked and this pellet pot!





When degree days rise above 50 I need to add more material into the pot -The factory pot has worked the best





We are trying to figure a self cleaning pot - like the pellet pot above but that ill support a much larger pool of corn and also be self cleaning like the pellet pot. Close but yet no cigar. May we beg for suggestions?









I have tried to stuff more air in - but more air simply dilutes my upper smoke chamber temp - so I can assume less gaas temp in the HX and thats not my goal either.


----------



## webbie (Feb 27, 2008)

Well, as with all gods.....this one is gonna let you down hard. Promise you heaven, but give you earth.....

I was certainly hands-on to some extent at Tarm (we had two employees including me!), but not to the point of Joe and the nofossil and the "real" boiler people here. We pretty much relied on Traeger to put the mechanism on, and since the boiler was only rated at 80,000 maximum....and less in this case because there is no way we could use all the heat exchange as well as coal would have in the same boiler (which was designed for hard coal).

Chances are that you are ahead of the curve as far as modifications and guesses - but hopefully some others will have some guesses.

Only comment I would offer might relate to the corn output and output in general. It might be that the boiler ratings are the BOILER ratings, in other words what the heat exchanger and boiler are capable of in the best of all possible worlds. It would also, sadly, be an exaggeration or marketing tactic....meaning that pellet boilers are probably not IBR rated and any solid fuel is likely to perform worse in the field than claimed in the lab or by the sales people. We regularly have folks here that cannot get their freestanding pellet stove up to near the rated input or output - they tend to get about what you get - 70-75%. The reason that no one usually complains is that they are operating at 40% most of the time anyway...in other words, very few folks run up against those limits. 

So my thinking is that you are unlikely to ever get the corn up above about 75% of rating. With the right pellets, it might be possible to get higher, but I still doubt you will reach the rated input or output.  Hopefully that will not mess you up too bad, as most of the time you may not need that much heat. At the same time, this should serve notice to pellet stove/boiler/furnace buyers not to expect the full rated input/output...or at minimum do a lot of homework and get it in writing as to the lbs per hour that they promise!

Sorry I had to let you down from heaven, but I have worked more with words (and computer code) in the past 10+ years than with boilers!


----------



## Sting (Feb 28, 2008)

I once tried some scrap baffles to do just that. Try and direct some heat back into the corn pool 
Drive off the moisture or make some secondary combustion on the escaping vapor.

It didn't do any good. I actually lost a few degrees of temp in the upper smoke chamber.

But thanks for the idea. I have been thinking about this for two seasons. A fresh evaluation is very welcome!

Thanks for letting me down ez Craig. I had hoped you had the silver bullet. Yes I know now this baby boiler is over rated. When I picked it up as a used orphan I expected more - never burnt corn but I thought I knew a little about wet systems so "What could be so hard - Right???" Daaaa -->corn is an art
I stock in a 6 ton bin out doors - some call it the space shuttle. Replace from that the daily pounds used into a conditioner/preheater/dryer. Then auger that product as needed into the appliance bin for best result of burn. Well maybe corn will stay out of reach and Ill just keep burning pellets, and I won't need to anguish about a self cleaning corn pot!


----------



## BrownianHeatingTech (Feb 29, 2008)

Sting said:
			
		

> At the GPM thru the vessel I get ALMOST 60,000 btu from an appliance rated at 130,000. Factor that I am only running on 2/3 feed potential the math says 70%



What's the GPM and delta T on the water side?



			
				Sting said:
			
		

> At my current cos to pellets by the truckload - I am heating for 15% less on pellets than on similar production with NG - too bad for me  -last year on 70 a ton corn that was a far better ROI - but I got - so I burn it - as long as it doesn't cost me money.



Making _any_ ROI on NG is very good.  NG is one of the cheaper fuels, and 15% is about where I would put you, based upon the published efficiency numbers, so I think you may be running closer to the published efficiency than you think, or your NG system is extremely inefficient.



			
				Sting said:
			
		

> I have tried to stuff more air in - but more air simply dilutes my upper smoke chamber temp - so I can assume less gaas temp in the HX and thats not my goal either.



Peak efficiency tends to coincide with minimal excess air, as you've noted.

What's your combustion temp?

Joe


----------



## Sting (Feb 29, 2008)

What's the GPM and delta T on the water side?

--Did the calc last season - lost the data - recall the result


Making _any_ ROI on NG is very good.  NG is one of the cheaper fuels, and 15% is about where I would put you, based upon the published efficiency numbers, so I think you may be running closer to the published efficiency than you think, or your NG system is extremely inefficient.

--- sure - I think?


Peak efficiency tends to coincide with minimal excess air, as you've noted.

What's your combustion temp?

Joe
--- I do not possess equipment to measure the actual combustion temp in the burn pot - I can measure the surface temp of the upper smoke chamber and I do 24/7 with analog temp registration - BUT I know that is corrupted data by the condition of the HX at any time other than hours after cleaning and the variable vessel temp by ODR. It does give me another reference to glance when feeding the beast.

With this in mind - do you have any suggestions to improved burn with the factory multi fuel pot or the contraptions we display above? I have even considered building a shaker grate burn pot and trying rice coal - but after some quick ciphering and the influence of alcohol - in Wisconsin the freight cost kills the possibility! IF I could burn more ponds per hour of corn I could get to appliance rated potential - Do you have users who burn fuel other than wood pellets with all three feed cups in play? Does you buddy? Hope you can suggest option to improve the rather sad performance of this appliance - yet I understand it a very simple single pass vertical fire tube boiler and hi performance is a lofty goal. Is it in reach? This all may be mute with corn as I expect the acquisition cost will remain higher than pellets - but even improvements on pellets will lower the daily operational cost of heating my little abode. And isn't that why we lurk here?


----------



## BrownianHeatingTech (Feb 29, 2008)

Sting said:
			
		

> --- I do not possess equipment to measure the actual combustion temp in the burn pot - I can measure the surface temp of the upper smoke chamber and I do 24/7 with analog temp registration - BUT I know that is corrupted data by the condition of the HX at any time other than hours after cleaning and the variable vessel temp by ODR. It does give me another reference to glance when feeding the beast.



Well, if you don't know the temperature difference between the flame and the flue, you aren't really measuring the efficiency...



			
				Sting said:
			
		

> With this in mind - do you have any suggestions to improved burn with the factory multi fuel pot or the contraptions we display above? I have even considered building a shaker grate burn pot and trying rice coal - but after some quick ciphering and the influence of alcohol - in Wisconsin the freight cost kills the possibility! IF I could burn more ponds per hour of corn I could get to appliance rated potential - Do you have users who burn fuel other than wood pellets with all three feed cups in play? Does you buddy? Hope you can suggest option to improve the rather sad performance of this appliance - yet I understand it a very simple single pass vertical fire tube boiler and hi performance is a lofty goal. Is it in reach? This all may be mute with corn as I expect the acquisition cost will remain higher than pellets - but even improvements on pellets will lower the daily operational cost of heating my little abode. And isn't that why we lurk here?



I think you have a heat extraction issue, not a burn issue.  The feed system meters a given amount of fuel per rotation, and if we're talking pellets, that's a given amount of btus going into the burn pot.

If the thing isn't smoking like a beast, and you aren't running massive amounts of excess air, then you are converting the fuel into hot gas pretty effectively.  If that's all happening, then the burner is doing its job.

Extracting the heat from the hot gas is the responsibility of the heat exchanger.  Assuming a proper burn (ie, not too much excess air), and relatively-clean heat exchange surface, that becomes primarily a function of the flow rate and delta-T of water through the heat exchanger.  Those things can also cause dirty burning, and excess air to compensate, if the flow rate is too low and the system is short-cycling.

Running the system with all three feed cups, I'd want to see a minimum flow of 10 gpm.
Running on two cups, you could get by with 7 gpm.  I'd never design for that, though, in case someone wanted to run all three in the future.

What sort of duty cycle is the burner making?  Only if it's sitting in "burn" mode all the time and still can't keep up, would the system not be producing enough btus.  If that's not the case, and it is cycling between the limits (hits high limit, switches to pilot, hits low limit, switches back to burn), then you definitely have a water flow problem.

Joe


----------



## Sting (Feb 29, 2008)

Thanks for the quick reply

I circulate at about 6GPM (that jogs my old head as to how we rated - that and delta T) when burning corn like you say thats what the pump performance specs are and the loop is sized correctly so head pressure issues do not play- I pump at higher GPM when on full feed and pellets - what ever it takes to keep the Delta T in parameter. Sort of like NOFO is pumping his plant. I don't have a pump or design problem - the Traeger is a heat extraction problem by its simple design - that cannot be changed - I have not incorporated flow monitor capability in the loop - too expensive - I accept the pump it working correctly -  lets move on.

Duty cycle - Baby boiler is far outmatched by the load I place on it. Only lucid pumping - boiler protection - and an occasional assist from its strong NG brother on the primary loop keeps the little place warm when degree day load exceeds 60. Again its under sized a bit - but it works better under load than at idle. It is producing all it can now - I am looking for suggestions to increase its potential by the only part that can reasonably be varied - the fuel input and combustion of that fuel. Is that direction wrong?

If I had deep pockets I would have an HS TARM pellet appliance in my boiler room and there would be no issues in performance or economy of operation!


----------



## BrownianHeatingTech (Feb 29, 2008)

Sting said:
			
		

> I circulate at about 6GPM when burning corn like you say thats what the pump performance specs are and the loop is sized correctly so head pressure issues do not play- I pump at higher GPM when on full feed and pellets - what ever it takes to keep the Delta T in parameter. Sort of like NOFO is pumping his plant. I don't have a pump or design problem - the Traeger is a heat extraction problem by its simple design - that cannot be changed - I have not incorporated flow monitor capability in the loop - too expensive - I accept the pump it working correctly -  lets move on.



What's the actual delta between the supply and return at the pellet boiler?



			
				Sting said:
			
		

> Duty cycle - Baby boiler is far outmatched by the load I place on it. Only lucid pumping - boiler protection - and an occasional assist from its strong NG brother on the primary loop keeps the little place warm when degree day load exceeds 60. Again its under sized a bit - but it works better under load than at idle. It is producing all it can now - I am looking for suggestions to increase its potential by the only part that can reasonably be varied - the fuel input and combustion of that fuel. Is that direction wrong?



Does it ever hit high limit?  Or is it in "burn" mode non-stop?

Joe


----------



## Sting (Feb 29, 2008)

0 to 40 degrees differential usually 10 to 12 % and or +- 2 degrees - dependent on load - pumping - heat soak - degree day I don't pump thru when SUPPLY cannot be 145 or more - pumping is greatly curtailed or stopped till appliance recovers to 160 supply water. 

Never hi limits except on the occasion that the sun comes out and heat soak carries the appliance away - heat dump protection launches at 205 - Hi limit protection aqustat samples by probe directly in place of the old Triple honeywell troublesome control - IT stops ALL operation at 195 - even idle fire timing. I don't run my stuff hotter, don't need to Radiation and load is sized for cooler water. ( I can heat on the worst day of the year with the energy of 170 degree water if I can produce enough of it!)  Normal vessel temperature modulation is controlled by an Teckmar (older generation) single boiler control in relation to outdoor temp - boiler sensor is taped inches above the supply port in the same size loop pipe.

AS I say its undersized for the load - on higher degree days It can burn all day and heat soak - the more it burns the better it works. 

Have I passed the interview yet?  :>)  Can you help me with ideas to make more heat? I have control - I understand your misgivings of such when we bench race like this!


----------



## Sting (Feb 29, 2008)

Lets also factor in Joe that this is the older combustion draft induced burner without the glass door. With what I know today I don't think I would want the current draft induced combustion version. For similar money I would buy a p105 Harmon - or as I say spend the extra for a BAXI. But I now burn baby Boiler because I found him as an orphan on a demo site - he had heated a two unit apartment and a bar in his previous life on cheep Marth pellets with the pellet pot I show above. That fuel wasn't as rich as the fuel I burn today so I can see how it worked - my result on the pot = I couldn't get enough combustion air to the fuel and is burnt rich and cold - reducing the third and second feed cup with a shim leaned the mixture for the hottest burn on the pellet pot. Yes I am achieving a 15% ROI over gas today - but to do that I had to secure a full truckload of hi quality fuel at a low price. Could I have made more on my 2 year supply fuel investment - possibly - but it wouldn't have been as much fun! 

performance today = I filled the hopper at 6:30 am - at 1 about 20 lbs has been consumed. 40% duty cycle appx??? Hi 20 outdoors and a nice summer breeze - Ill pull the degree day data tomorrow if you like.

Here is an excerpt from a chat with a user of the new version and the drama he faces - OF course I don't wish this critique to halt the free flow of ideas you may have - But I recall your buddy was happy to be a new dealer and may benefit from this exchange.  

A major problem with the PB150 is that the fan needs to be cleaned and the company left you no damn way of cleaning it. It is IMPOSSIBLE to take the fan off of the Boiler the way they have it designed now unless you disassemble your chimney pipe and who wants to do that? Nobody!

So the only way to reliably and easily clean your fan is that I took a Sawzall and carefully cut off a section of he collar that currently blocks you from unbolting and removing your fan assembly.
I sliced it up about 1 inch to the top of the collar and then across the entire top collar to remove a flat rectangular piece of metal. Then, you can unbolt your fan assembly and take it outside and blow it out with compressed air.

Unless you don't mind you and your basement covered in ash, you have to blow these things out outside. If you blow them out while they are still attached to the boiler it is messy and I honestly believe a health hazard to have all that ash chit flying around or laying in your basement. Very very fine and very very dirty.

Go to the auto store and get some gasket cork and while you still have the original fiberglass gasket, make up a new gasket from cork and make up a spare as well. Keep the original Fiberglas gasket as a future template in a safe place.

Oh yes. Pinnacle hard wires the fans to the control box so to save you the grief of f*#^&)ng with the wire each time you clean your fan, I cut the cable and the wires halfway and rigged up a 3 prong plug deal. That way in the future you just unplug the fan and take it off. Reinstall it and plug the 2 plugs back together and you are in business.

o.k.. so now we have a nice gap to spew smoke out of right where we cut the collar!?!? Cut your self a piece of that gasket cork and you will need to make up / bend up a strong "u-clip" out of spring steel that will hold that cork against the pipe collar. What will even ensure that you get ZERO smoke is that you pack the gaps with tin foil and I have never ever had a smoke leaking problem. Maybe a little puff when you first fire it back up but just take a flat screwdriver and smush the tinfoil into the gaps harder and you will not have a problem.

I have found that I need to remove and clean my fan about every 5 weeks.

Folks. There is no other easy way around cleaning this fan assembly unless you want to be very dirty, spend hours with a bul^#^t toothbrush and a vacuum nozzle.

Believe me when I tell you that unless you clean your fan, you will lose so much draft that you will get "cold fires" which results in a sh*^%y burn.

I have done a lot of modifications to the PB 150 so if there is something that I left out... just ask me and I will be happy to clarify.

WARNING: The bolts that hold the fan assembly on. DO NOT STRIP or damage them! God help you if you do. Another nice design of Pinnacle is that if you wreck of these..... good luck tapping and dying to fix them. They should have just been simple nuts and bolts.... but hey... that would have been too easy.


----------



## Delta-T (Feb 29, 2008)

I don't see why you had to modify the PB105 to get at the combustion fan. The cover is supposed to come off by undoing the 2 swell latches on either side and then there are 3 wing nuts that hold the fan motor in place. Loosen the wing nuts, turn the assembly CCW and out it comes.


----------



## Sting (Feb 29, 2008)

Ist not my applinace 
I run the older version with the hair dryer supporting combustion
but:
- this is not the only user I have received dispersion from in regard to the inability to service the combustion draft inducer squirrel cage.

Do you have pictures that I might pass on to my friends - maybe there is an upgrade/update they don't have???

Just to clarify - This is the TRAEGER PB150 not the HARMON P105


----------



## Delta-T (Mar 1, 2008)

So sorry Sting, I am only familiar with the Harman PB105. Ignore my comment then. Must say I do appreciate the use of some good old Yankee Inginuity.


----------



## BrownianHeatingTech (Mar 1, 2008)

Sting said:
			
		

> 0 to 40 degrees differential usually 10 to 12 % and or +- 2 degrees - dependent on load - pumping - heat soak - degree day I don't pump thru when SUPPLY cannot be 145 or more - pumping is greatly curtailed or stopped till appliance recovers to 160 supply water.



If you're getting 40 degree delta between the supply and the return, and flowing 6 GPM, you're getting 120,000 btu output.



			
				Sting said:
			
		

> Never hi limits except on the occasion that the sun comes out and heat soak carries the appliance away - heat dump protection launches at 205 - Hi limit protection aqustat samples by probe directly in place of the old Triple honeywell troublesome control - IT stops ALL operation at 195 - even idle fire timing. I don't run my stuff hotter, don't need to Radiation and load is sized for cooler water. ( I can heat on the worst day of the year with the energy of 170 degree water if I can produce enough of it!)  Normal vessel temperature modulation is controlled by an Teckmar (older generation) single boiler control in relation to outdoor temp - boiler sensor is taped inches above the supply port in the same size loop pipe.



What reset curve are you using with the Tekmar?



			
				Sting said:
			
		

> Have I passed the interview yet?  :>)  Can you help me with ideas to make more heat? I have control - I understand your misgivings of such when we bench race like this!



Trying to figure out what's going on.  The numbers you are giving me say that you are producing the rated output.



			
				Sting said:
			
		

> performance today = I filled the hopper at 6:30 am - at 1 about 20 lbs has been consumed. 40% duty cycle appx??? Hi 20 outdoors and a nice summer breeze - Ill pull the degree day data tomorrow if you like.



If you're only running 40% duty, then you're certainly making enough heat at the boiler, because it is shutting off on high limit.



			
				Sting said:
			
		

> Here is an excerpt from a chat with a user of the new version and the drama he faces - OF course I don't wish this critique to halt the free flow of ideas you may have - But I recall your buddy was happy to be a new dealer and may benefit from this exchange.
> 
> A major problem with the PB150 is that the fan needs to be cleaned and the company left you no damn way of cleaning it. It is IMPOSSIBLE to take the fan off of the Boiler the way they have it designed now unless you disassemble your chimney pipe and who wants to do that? Nobody!



Actually, it's designed that way because you are supposed to disconnect and inspect the flue pipe.  You are not supposed to be able to skip that step, which is why the fan is designed the way it is.  If the flue pipe is installed correctly, all you need to do is loosen it, loosen the four bolts that hold the fan, slide the fan out about 3/4" from the draft hood, and drop the fan from the pipe.  Very simple.

If he's not making draft without cleaning it that often, though, he has another issue going on.  Probably needs to clean his flue pipe, since it sounds like he doesn't actually do that.

Joe


----------



## Sting (Mar 1, 2008)

If you're getting 40 degree delta between the supply and the return, and flowing 6 GPM, you're getting 120,000 btu output.
.............

---Pumping is variable and controlled via the BANG-BANG methods (named by others here) with thermal reacting switches - sometimes I can see a significant Delta T - simply because pumping has lagged to adjust -You wanted to know the range and tolerances of my plant but one point: This plant isn't digitally controlled or state of the art -  I live in a past life with old versions of SOME current technology - IE   READ:  Salvaged junk... Maybe I should monitor what I divulge but I was hoping for further interaction to my goal.  

..............

What reset curve are you using with the Tekmar?

---picture worth a thousand words?






...................

Trying to figure out what's going on.  The numbers you are giving me say that you are producing the rated output.

---at times maybe - but again don't read out of context - anything can be construed - real life its more than 60 but far less than 70

.................

If you're only running 40% duty, then you're certainly making enough heat at the boiler, because it is shutting off on high limit.

---Again that was yesterday a very low degree day [36] double that and no way will baby boiler keep up - and this month there have been a LOT of days above 60 - someplace between 50 and 60 is the threshold of Baby Boilers potential.

 ..........................



Actually, it's designed that way because you are supposed to disconnect and inspect the flue pipe.  You are not supposed to be able to skip that step, which is why the fan is designed the way it is.  If the flue pipe is installed correctly, all you need to do is loosen it, loosen the four bolts that hold the fan, slide the fan out about 3/4" from the draft hood, and drop the fan from the pipe.  Very simple.

If he's not making draft without cleaning it that often, though, he has another issue going on.  Probably needs to clean his flue pipe, since it sounds like he doesn't actually do that.

Joe

---Ill pass that on! Can you pass on any suggestions to make more available energy from this appliance? Our goal still is to burn corn in a self cleaning pot - yet maybe with corn futures predicted over 5 bucks a bu already - pellets or coal will be the only recourse. So got any ideas to improve the burn pot or the combustion air of the old boiler design??? Or do you still think my circulation  and control design it wrong?


----------



## Sting (Mar 1, 2008)

Delta-T said:
			
		

> So sorry Sting, I am only familiar with the Harman PB105. Ignore my comment then. Must say I do appreciate the use of some good old Yankee Inginuity.



Please don't be sorry

I am very grateful for the responses and the interaction

This is the first place in two years that I have found fellows who I can look up to for advice.

its a good feeling!

Kind Regards
Sting


----------



## stephenmoore (Mar 1, 2008)

Hello Delta T, How is your PB105 working ? I'd be interested in seeing the specs on your system. I am in year one of my PB 105. Burning two bags of pellets per day, although I am on my third igniter. You had any problems ?


----------



## BrownianHeatingTech (Mar 1, 2008)

Sting said:
			
		

> If you're only running 40% duty, then you're certainly making enough heat at the boiler, because it is shutting off on high limit.
> 
> ---Again that was yesterday a very low degree day [36] double that and no way will baby boiler keep up - and this month there have been a LOT of days above 60 - someplace between 50 and 60 is the threshold of Baby Boilers potential.



If it's at 40% on a 36-hdd day, then it should be able to handle roughly a 90-hdd day.



			
				Sting said:
			
		

> ---Ill pass that on! Can you pass on any suggestions to make more available energy from this appliance? Our goal still is to burn corn in a self cleaning pot - yet maybe with corn futures predicted over 5 bucks a bu already - pellets or coal will be the only recourse. So got any ideas to improve the burn pot or the combustion air of the old boiler design??? Or do you still think my circulation  and control design it wrong?



I'm not a fan of corn for a fuel.

I'm pretty well convinced that it's a circulation or control problem.  It sounds like the boiler does fine at low output levels, but "runs out of steam" long before it should, based upon the duty cycle comparison to the heating load.  These things are pretty linear.  Actually, it "wastes" more fuel in pilot mode on low-load days, so it should be able to handle even more than the low-load day examination of the duty cycle might suggest.

It's kind of hard to diagnose these things via the Internet.

As far as producing more heat from the existing boiler, the only real way to do that would be to enlarge the burn pot and increase the feed rate, as well as increasing the air supply to match.  Of course, putting more heat under the same heat exchanger is going to drop your efficiency...

Joe


----------



## Sting (Mar 1, 2008)

BrownianHeatingTech said:
			
		

> I'm not a fan of corn for a fuel.
> 
> Joe




Thank-you Joe


----------



## Sting (Mar 2, 2008)

BrownianHeatingTech said:
			
		

> Actually, it's designed that way because you are supposed to disconnect and inspect the flue pipe.  You are not supposed to be able to skip that step, which is why the fan is designed the way it is.  If the flue pipe is installed correctly, all you need to do is loosen it, loosen the four bolts that hold the fan, slide the fan out about 3/4" from the draft hood, and drop the fan from the pipe.  Very simple.
> 
> If he's not making draft without cleaning it that often, though, he has another issue going on.  Probably needs to clean his flue pipe, since it sounds like he doesn't actually do that.
> 
> Joe



Ha Ha this is good _ I was chatting with my friends that burn the new model - and of course I shared this information as I said I would

They wonder if you have ever been next to a Traeger in service - 

And reviewing your wonderful advice after the grilling you gave me 

Well so do I?????? Hope you learned something about the lame Traeger boiler design!


----------



## BrownianHeatingTech (Mar 2, 2008)

Sting said:
			
		

> Ha Ha this is good _ I was chatting with my friends that burn the new model - and of course I shared this information as I said I would
> 
> They wonder if you have ever been next to a Traeger in service -
> 
> ...



Fix your piping and controls, and see what happens.  The information you posted says the boiler is working fine.

According to what you quoted your friend saying, he doesn't disassemble the flue pipe like he's supposed to, and complains that his lack of proper maintenance is a design flaw on the part of the manufacturer.

In both cases, you're trying to blame the equipment.  In some cases, the equipment is defective.  In other cases, someone used the wrong equipment and it can't do the job that was asked.  In others, the equipment is working fine and the user simple is not operating and/or maintaining as it should be.  The numbers and comments that you provided showed which was the case.  I can go through the math in greater depth if there's some part of that determination that you are having trouble understanding.

Joe


----------



## Sting (Mar 2, 2008)

NO Thank-you

I have far enough salesman BS for one week - If you couldn't or were unwilling to critique the self cleaning corn burn pot experiment or if you were simply unable to suggest ways to improve the piss poor Traeger burn pot design -

YOU simply should have days ago!

Or stayed out and let the thread die.

As to your "towing the company line" regarding your "opinion" of how the appliance should or shouldn't be maintained in the real world

God Bless You. I am sure Mom and Dad are proud. Now go pull up you pants! 

How did that saying I learned here go???  Another salesman with puke on your shoes!


----------



## BrownianHeatingTech (Mar 2, 2008)

Sting said:
			
		

> NO Thank-you
> 
> I have far enough salesman BS for one week - If you couldn't or were unwilling to critique the self cleaning corn burn pot experiment or if you were simply unable to suggest ways to improve the piss poor Traeger burn pot design -
> 
> ...



I'm not a salesman, Sting.  I'm an engineer.  I'll give you the accurate answer, whether you like it or not, and whether it gets me a sale or not.  The accurate answer is that, based on the numbers you provided, the boiler is functioning normally, providing its rated output, and there is a water flow problem, either due to piping, pump sizing, or something in the control setup.  If the numbers showed a defect, I would have called up the Traeger folks and found out what could be done to solve it.

Inspecting and (if necessary) cleaning the flue pipe is not an opinion.  It's a require maintenance step in all fuel-burning appliances.  That includes oil, gas, wood, pellet, corn, coal, and anything else.  The only difference from fuel to fuel is the maintenance interval.  But it needs to be done for all of them.

I'd be happy to critique the alternative burn pot design that you came up with, if you post some more details.  A single photo, lacking dimensions, is not sufficient for that.  You seemed more interested in finding out why you weren't getting adequate heat from the system, so I figured that was a "backburner" sort of project and you would be posting the critical details later.

Joe


----------



## Sting (Mar 6, 2008)

this didn't work 

sorry  :red:


----------



## critterfitter (Mar 16, 2008)

Hi All:


 New to forum . I have a Harman p105 boiler put on line in November started with igniter problems about week ago. I'll give you all background on me I'm self employed master plumber with extensive heat background. So even though is still warrantied I want to fix problem myself. I am pretty anal about cleaning burn pot and the igniter access area. It does build up a lot of granulated material almost like a sand consistency. I got the igniter to ignite again and it was intermittent at best so I put it on manual for about a week until I had time to mess with it . Today woke up and was out of pellets no error codes so I filled with pellets and tried to light but then it wasn't feeding took out the book said to check if esp probe was sensing 170  degrees  I took it out scuffed up with sandpaper and seemed to fix problem a few hours wife called said went out again lit it but fire was lazy.I then took off hose leading to pressure switch an put straw on it and blew through. then tried to start it still lazy then took off access cover to the auger shoot and was filled with fines put finger in there pulled out dust and put door on and started it and then fire roared. Is building temp. now so have igniter switch back on will see if light boiler now.

 One thing will say is have to keep up with cleaning issues on unit. IE: scraping burn pot cleaning auger shoot and cleaning flue piping. Has anyone had issues with cleaning rod in upper right corner sticking??


  Bryan Smith 
All American Services 
Plumbing And Heating


----------



## alaz (Jun 5, 2008)

Bryan,
How did your boiler fair?  Would you recommend it?  Could rod have stuck b/c poor design or warped do to heat?  What does your boiler run to, hwbb, radiant, hydro coil in air handler? Did you find it efficient?
I am close to purchasing PB 105, any input would be appreciated.
Thanks.


----------



## critterfitter (Jun 5, 2008)

firestarter:


      Finally had rep come to look at it >At first he said my draft was to high but that wasn't the case then said was to low that wasn't true either > Also said maybe dirty but I'm anal retentive if anything and had cleaned combustion tubes and also jut took apart the flue piping. I had him put in new igniter and try an kept saying I was questioning feed rates. While we were discussing this there was and explosion and then fire. At this point he called his shop and asked about feed rates then took out control board and changed settings on feed rates. Then turned on and fired regularly in about 1-2 minutes . Has been good ever since.You have to be a hands on person.I think the rod was just bent. Overall is good but harmans tech support is poor.There like cars salesman after the sale good luck.


----------



## critterfitter (Jun 5, 2008)

effeciency good /design good/ there are some outdoor pellet boilers on market that are good almess outside. My e-mail


----------



## alaz (Jun 6, 2008)

My goal is to use an inside boiler.  It just makes the most sense for me at this time.  
But thanks...


----------

