# New indoor boiler choices



## Vizsla (Dec 23, 2013)

Looking for top quality indoor wood boiler brands. And installer in south east michigan. Done quite a bit of searching and keep seeing the same brands. Unfortunately an outdoor model is not an option for my local codes. Their requirements make it unfeasable and impossible with my lot size. I have run across a few in my time in customer homes in combination with a boiler. I have radiant heat in the home, 2000sqft. and looking for top quality. New or used options. I like the Tarm, Effecta and portage and main indoor products. Smart controls are nice but at a cost, so I'm not afraid of an older non super efficient model. As only my IDW requires higher temps. I only have room for 250gal storage inside anything bigger will have to go in the shop or wood shed 15' away. 
Are there any other brands/models to look at? I am familiar with most of the models in the reviews here. Utility costs are getting out of hand here in the burbs of Detroit, since someone has to pay for the years of mismanagement and imbezzling. Plus I've always wanted to go back to wood fuels as the house originally had.


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## Coal Reaper (Dec 23, 2013)

Varmebronen, woodgun, garn. Allhave their  strong points as well as their quirks. Research and find out what will work best for YOU.  Try to see if you can fit more storage as you will be able to take advantage of low temps. This will allow you to go longer between fires. Let the games begin!


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## henfruit (Dec 24, 2013)

Take a look at the Vigas.


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## airlina (Dec 24, 2013)

Vizsla said:


> Looking for top quality indoor wood boiler brands. And installer in south east michigan. Done quite a bit of searching and keep seeing the same brands. Unfortunately an outdoor model is not an option for my local codes. Their requirements make it unfeasable and impossible with my lot size. I have run across a few in my time in customer homes in combination with a boiler. I have radiant heat in the home, 2000sqft. and looking for top quality. New or used options. I like the Tarm, Effecta and portage and main indoor products. Smart controls are nice but at a cost, so I'm not afraid of an older non super efficient model. As only my IDW requires higher temps. I only have room for 250gal storage inside anything bigger will have to go in the shop or wood shed 15' away.
> Are there any other brands/models to look at? I am familiar with most of the models in the reviews here. Utility costs are getting out of hand here in the burbs of Detroit, since someone has to pay for the years of mismanagement and imbezzling. Plus I've always wanted to go back to wood fuels as the house originally had.


I have a house similar in size to yours and have an indoor Econoburn 100 in my basement. (Just fired it up for the morning burn) The factory is not to far from you in Western New York (Brocton,NY) and they are great to deal with-top notch support. I am in my 4th year with the unit and haven't bought a load of heating oil since I got the Econoburn.  Bruce


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## Chris Hoskin (Dec 24, 2013)

based on 2000 square feet and radiant floor heat, I assume the house is newer and the heat load pretty low.  I strongly encourage you to put the boiler and storage in the shop.  There is not a wood boiler that is small enough to meet your heating demand without thermal storage and 250 gallons is not enough.  If you have the ceiling height to stand a single, vertical 400 or 500 gallon tank in the shop that would be ideal.  If you really want something in the house, and you can't fit more thermal storage, you may want to consider a wood stove or pellet stove.  Happy hunting!


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## stee6043 (Dec 24, 2013)

EKO is notably missing from your list as well.  There is a dealer up in Indian River that carries a handful of brands.  Excellent service, at least back when I got mine.  Cozy Heat.  Might be worth checking out their website and giving them a call.


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## BoiledOver (Dec 24, 2013)

Vizsla said:


> Utility costs are getting out of hand here in the burbs of Detroit.


 
I am pretty sure if you are getting natural gas from MIchCon in southeast Michigan, it is less in cost than buying firewood per btu. If you have an abuncance of "free wood" coming from somewhere other than the burbs, then wood heat is a very good altenative.

1 Cord of red oak with a 20% moisture content  = approximately 24 million btu's - cost to you "?"
1 Ccf natural gas (delivered to you in existing pipelines) = approximately 102,300 btu's - cost to you "50 cents"


24,000,000 / 102,300 = 234.6  x .50 = $117.30 <--- natural gas   as opposed to 1 cord firewood ----> $150

Natural gas is expected to remain low due to the extreme abundance that is easily accessible. Free firewood will have a payoff point on your investment, purchased firewood will not.


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## hobbyheater (Dec 24, 2013)

Have a look at Garn! Simple, efficient, with storage all in one!



Video is of a bigger unit, but the principle is the same.


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## heaterman (Dec 24, 2013)

From a purely economic standpoint, your payback time frame is a long way down the road if you have natural gas available. A very long way down the road.

Unless natural gas triples in price, the $$ just aren't there to amortize your investment in any reasonable period. 

Right now I don't see that price spiking drastically but who knows these days......
If I had to make a choice between installing a wood boiler and all that goes with that, or spending the same amount of $$ on insulation and a good gas boiler, it wouldn't take me long to come to a decision.....


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## BoilerMan (Dec 24, 2013)

heaterman said:


> From a purely economic standpoint, your payback time frame is a long way down the road if you have natural gas available. A very long way down the road.
> 
> Unless natural gas triples in price, the $$ just aren't there to amortize your investment in any reasonable period.
> 
> ...


 As much as I hate to admit it, I'm right there with you.  Viessmann modcon connected directly to slab.

TS


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## McKraut (Dec 24, 2013)

Vizsla said:


> Looking for top quality indoor wood boiler brands. And installer in south east michigan. Done quite a bit of searching and keep seeing the same brands. Unfortunately an outdoor model is not an option for my local codes. Their requirements make it unfeasable and impossible with my lot size. I have run across a few in my time in customer homes in combination with a boiler. I have radiant heat in the home, 2000sqft. and looking for top quality. New or used options. I like the Tarm, Effecta and portage and main indoor products. Smart controls are nice but at a cost, so I'm not afraid of an older non super efficient model. As only my IDW requires higher temps. I only have room for 250gal storage inside anything bigger will have to go in the shop or wood shed 15' away.
> Are there any other brands/models to look at? I am familiar with most of the models in the reviews here. Utility costs are getting out of hand here in the burbs of Detroit, since someone has to pay for the years of mismanagement and imbezzling. Plus I've always wanted to go back to wood fuels as the house originally had.




If you're not interested in NG like the 2 experts above recommend, and you want to stick with wood, I'll give you my 2 cents. I used TARM Excel for over 15 years and I've been using EKO Biomass for 3 months. If I had the money I would have gone with Froling. The engineering, fit and finish is top notch. The craftsmanship with an EKO is crappy. I got a lot of support from TARM when I needed help. I get no help from the EKO dealer. You may be luckier where you live. The best way I can describe it would be to say the Froling is like a Mercedes and the EKO is like a Dodge Ram. Both get the job done, but the TARM is smoother and easier to operate. The Froling is a sleeker product but you will pay for it up front. I have no experience with other brands, but the fellas here on the forum will be glad to let you know what makes them happy.

--Bob


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## Vizsla (Dec 25, 2013)

Well thanks for the input so far much appreciated. I'm spending close to $4k on a gas bill per year. We used to pay $1400 . Yes all wood is free and 90% of it is 8 miles away on the orchard. I load up 3 pallets or apple bins per load, in my Mercedes Sprinter van. So yes I would like to stick with Mercedes like quality and service. I didn't want to say it, but this is what I have come across here, lots of problems with the EKO, econo, Empyre units. Almost can't give them away used, yet the Tarms used still fetch good prices.  Garn is just to big. I don't want to start a brand war, cuz there is always more to the story. 
I plan on using both NG and wood and if I do go with a $10k unit I'm only looking at a few years for payback, considering my labor is free. 
I just got a call from a customer that's heating with a wood boiler, since the power is out in Metamorah , MI. Using gravity , with the zones all opened.


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## maple1 (Dec 25, 2013)

*I just got a call from a customer that's heating with a wood boiler, since the power is out in Metamorah , MI. Using gravity , with the zones all opened.*

That's what I do too.

We've been really luck on the power, no outages at all all the way through this ice storm business. Knock on wood. Think it's been a week since I've seen the sun.


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## KenLockett (Dec 25, 2013)

BoiledOver said:


> I am pretty sure if you are getting natural gas from MIchCon in southeast Michigan, it is less in cost than buying firewood per btu. If you have an abuncance of "free wood" coming from somewhere other than the burbs, then wood heat is a very good altenative.
> 
> 1 Cord of red oak with a 20% moisture content  = approximately 24 million btu's - cost to you "?"
> 1 Ccf natural gas (delivered to you in existing pipelines) = approximately 102,300 btu's - cost to you "50 cents"
> ...




Not sure your calculations took into account the efficiency of the gas furnace/boiler versus wood boiler.  Wouldn't the high efficiency gas burners have a higher efficiency relative to the typical wood boiler and thus wider margin on the cost?  Just an observation.


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## heaterman (Dec 25, 2013)

Now you have me scratching my chin Visla.. $4,000 to heat a 2000 sq ft house? 
That's an average cost of almost $350 per month!     What is the delivered cost of your gas?

We're with Consumers Energy in this part of the state and my gas bill shows total delivered cost per therm (100,000btu) at about $0.62
If you're all low temp radiant, a boiler like a Viessmann will deliver an honest 96-98% efficiency all day long with simple annual maintenance. 

A 9,000sq ft building with 26' ceiling that we did last year only went through $6,500 of LP gas, which is twice the cost of natural gas.


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## BoiledOver (Dec 25, 2013)

KenLockett said:


> Not sure your calculations took into account the efficiency of the gas furnace/boiler versus wood boiler.  Wouldn't the high efficiency gas burners have a higher efficiency relative to the typical wood boiler and thus wider margin on the cost?  Just an observation.


 
Yeah Ken, your observation is right on. Not wanting to make efficiency claims from guesing, so I kept the math simple. I never would have imagined a natural gas boiler being above 90% efficient, that is so awesome. Compare that to 80% or there abouts of a wood gasification boiler and yes the margin is wider.


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## Gasifier (Dec 25, 2013)

How is the insulation in your house? What would a heat calculation tell you for heat demand?


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## goosegunner (Dec 25, 2013)

Vizsla said:


> Well thanks for the input so far much appreciated. I'm spending close to $4k on a gas bill per year. We used to pay $1400 . Yes all wood is free and 90% of it is 8 miles away on the orchard. I load up 3 pallets or apple bins per load, in my Mercedes Sprinter van. So yes I would like to stick with Mercedes like quality and service. I didn't want to say it, but this is what I have come across here, lots of problems with the EKO, econo, Empyre units. Almost can't give them away used, yet the Tarms used still fetch good prices.  Garn is just to big. I don't want to start a brand war, cuz there is always more to the story.
> I plan on using both NG and wood and if I do go with a $10k unit I'm only looking at a few years for payback, considering my labor is free.
> I just got a call from a customer that's heating with a wood boiler, since the power is out in Metamorah , MI. Using gravity , with the zones all opened.




If that is how you feel you should buy a Froling and be done with it then.

gg


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## Vizsla (Dec 27, 2013)

It's my fabricating shop that eats soo much fuel, that and open wind does a number with doors open/close so much. But there is close to a$100 in delivery and fees from consumers for our area. The gas itself is cheap. But we pay for Detroit and those who can't or don't pay. Just next county up doesn't have these extra fees and delivery is cheaper.

Froling  it is, to bad no comments on the effecta since there is a dealer right by our Kalkaska cabin up north. I havent read about too many installs either. It's the lambda controls like the froling that seem to make the next step to clean and efficient. Along with the Tekmar boiler & DHW house control would be killer. I converted my burnham to a two stage and switched to VDT bumble bee pumps, but haven't done a full calc yet.


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## Hansson (Dec 27, 2013)

Here some top quality boilers!

http://www.hargassner.at/heizung/Article/ID/94/Session/1-q9LWDDK8-1-IP/Boiler_1_2_meter.htm
http://www.eta.co.at/109.0.html?&L=1
http://www.guntamatic.com/nc/en/pelletsheizung/products/log-boilers/bmk-20304050kw/
http://www.solarfocus.at/products/biomass-heating/log-wood-boilers/therminator-ii-touch-logs/
http://www.windhager.com/int_en/products/wood/logwin-premium-106/
http://www.froeling.com/se/products/firewood/froling-s4-turbo.html
http://www.herz-energie.at/index.php/firestar-lambda-18-40-1760.html
http://www.heitzmann.ch/produkte/st...essel/produkte-detail/-hv-40-60--deutsch.html


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## BoiledOver (Dec 27, 2013)

Hey again Viszla:

Loppers claim:   "Lopper:The Best-Built, Most Advanced, Lambda Controlled Wood Gasification Boiler On The Planet!"
http://www.loppernorthamerica.com/

Wow, $4,000 is killer. You obviously don't like dumping money as if it were toilet water so I strongly suggest you do all your calculations before making a decision.

My numbers above came from current website information at Consumers and DTE, both in the range of 46 cents per Ccf, or $4.60 per Mcf. If you look at the history of the NG pricing you will see it has been in decline for many, many  months. I rounded up to 50 cents per Ccf.

Concerning the $4,000 costs. How much is to heating? If it is all to heat, you may very well need over 20 cords of firewood per year in place of the NG. If the NG cost to heat is $2,000 it would be more like 10 cords per year.

Ask the experienced members here how much time, energey and real estate is required to process, handle and then tend a boiler through 20 cords annualy. If I were living in Southeast Michigan (in any of the counties) I would use NG for heating, cooking and DHW. Hands down NG is the most economical and easiest way to go.


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## Clarkbug (Dec 27, 2013)

Vizsla said:


> It's my fabricating shop that eats soo much fuel, that and open wind does a number with doors open/close so much. But there is close to a$100 in delivery and fees from consumers for our area. The gas itself is cheap. But we pay for Detroit and those who can't or don't pay. Just next county up doesn't have these extra fees and delivery is cheaper.
> 
> Froling  it is, to bad no comments on the effecta since there is a dealer right by our Kalkaska cabin up north. I havent read about too many installs either. It's the lambda controls like the froling that seem to make the next step to clean and efficient. Along with the Tekmar boiler & DHW house control would be killer. I converted my burnham to a two stage and switched to VDT bumble bee pumps, but haven't done a full calc yet.



Effecta just doesn't have the same distribution as the Froiling which is associated with Tarm.  So don't take a lack of posts here as a knock against them.  

The froiling is a great boiler, but not the only one with lambda controls.  There is Effecta, Varmebaronen, paxo, (I think) and others that I'm sure I'm leaving out.

So check out the place close to your cabin, since its always nice to have local support.  But if you do go Froiling, I'm sure you will be happy with your choice!


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## Karl_northwind (Dec 27, 2013)

Vizsla said:


> It's my fabricating shop that eats soo much fuel, that and open wind does a number with doors open/close so much. But there is close to a$100 in delivery and fees from consumers for our area. The gas itself is cheap. But we pay for Detroit and those who can't or don't pay. Just next county up doesn't have these extra fees and delivery is cheaper.
> 
> Froling  it is, to bad no comments on the effecta since there is a dealer right by our Kalkaska cabin up north. I havent read about too many installs either. It's the lambda controls like the froling that seem to make the next step to clean and efficient. Along with the Tekmar boiler & DHW house control would be killer. I converted my burnham to a two stage and switched to VDT bumble bee pumps, but haven't done a full calc yet.



I'm not much of a self promoter, so I tend to lurk around here unless I have something to say that others haven't or won't.  My company sells effecta boilers in Wi and Mn, and the western UP. 

But since you asked:

They're a top notch product in both design and execution.  I spent time at the factory in Sweden this fall checking out every aspect of the products and system.

I have installed a handful of effecta boilers, and the performance of the boilers have been flawless.  the only downside compared to some other boilers is the non-cycling nature of the burners.  Sweden doesn't allow cordwood boilers to cycle automatically.  This desire for lower emissions and higher efficiency leads to the need for a large buffer capacity.  the 35 KW boiler needs 500-1000 gallons, and the 60KW needs 1250 to 2000 gallons.  the smaller volume is if your return temps from the heating system are in the 100deg range, and the larger volume is if you need higher temps for your heating load.   the upside is that there is no bypass to remember to close, and the 02 sensor adjusts primary and secondary air to burn all the available fuel and reduce emissions.  the only problem I've had on the electronics is a direct lightning strike that also took out most of the other electronics in 3 buildings.

the fit and finish and quality control is as good as any piece of equipment I have ever worked on, in any industry.   If you have any other questions please PM me. 

now back to your regularly scheduled conversation....


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## maple1 (Dec 27, 2013)

I don't think I'd say non-cycling is a downside.


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## hobbyheater (Dec 27, 2013)

Vizsla said:


> Garn is just to big. .



The Garn Jr footprint is not going to have a much larger one than most other boilers such as the Froiling with storage added!
Unless you have a large continuous heating load, operating a wood fired boiler without storage can be a headache!


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## Vizsla (Dec 27, 2013)

I understand storage and wouldn't go ahead without it. Many thanks for ALL the replies, can never have too much info. 

On the effecta what do you mean non cycle???? If that means I have to reset for each burn that's a huge neg. I would only need a 50-100k unit. Not including the shop or barn, the HL is only 39kbtu for the house. Our grand marais cabin had an aqua therm and it was pretty easy to maintain and operate.

Wood for me is free , I have endless supply and until I get picky about specie it's all cut and split in Apple bins ready to go. I would prefer the Chinese elm or Brazilian cherry to oak, since it's about double the btu's if I were real concerned about the volume. I'm thinking anything I burn is saving me money, even if its only $750-$1000 per year. That will about cover my liscense's and CE's that the man keeps raising and implementing. Anything saved is a help these days.


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## Coal Reaper (Dec 27, 2013)

You have to REALLY enjoy processing wood and playing with fire if you are only going to be saving $1000/year. Great for you if thats the case!  Me, i am offsetting a $4000/yr oil bill plus the house   is warmer.   Makes me love splitting firewood that much more.


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## heaterman (Dec 27, 2013)

The Swede's (Effecta) have it right. They have come to the same conclusion Martin Lunde did with Garn 30+ years ago.
Do not cycle the fire. Period. Down that path lie true efficiency and low emissions.


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## bpirger (Dec 27, 2013)

hobbyheater said:


> The Garn Jr footprint is not going to have a much larger one than most other boilers such as the Froiling with storage added!
> Unless you have a large continuous heating load, operating a wood fired boiler without storage can be a headache!


 

Will have to second the idea of a closer look at the Garn Jr.  Can't see how it would be bigger than a boiler with a 250 gallon storage tank.  My garn has been trouble free.  If trouble free is the requirement, I can't imagine you can do better.  The highest efficiency?  Maybe not.  The easiest to deal with?  I'd bet yes.  No nozzles, no bridging, no fan controls, damper controls, etc.


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## skfire (Dec 28, 2013)

Vizsla said:


> It's my fabricating shop that eats soo much fuel, that and open wind does a number with doors open/close so much. But there is close to a$100 in delivery and fees from consumers for our area. The gas itself is cheap. But we pay for Detroit and those who can't or don't pay. Just next county up doesn't have these extra fees and delivery is cheaper.
> 
> Froling  it is, to bad no comments on the effecta since there is a dealer right by our Kalkaska cabin up north. I havent read about too many installs either. It's the lambda controls like the froling that seem to make the next step to clean and efficient. Along with the Tekmar boiler & DHW house control would be killer. I converted my burnham to a two stage and switched to VDT bumble bee pumps, but haven't done a full calc yet.




After extensive research, it was Garn if outside home and Froling if inside home, but the issues of shed, UG lines, HX, extra taxes on shed, and wet ground spelled  Froling and have not looked back in 3 years. Extremely happy with choice and like you I was dumping 4,500/yr(2009 prices) to the LP pirates. At the end of next season the Froling will have paid for itself, tanks, pumps and all. I have ZERO issues with smell, smoke, mess in the house and that was a serious consideration on my selection due to an asthmatic child.

Good luck

Scott


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## Gasifier (Dec 29, 2013)

Vizsla said:


> I understand storage and wouldn't go ahead without it. Many thanks for ALL the replies, can never have too much info.
> 
> On the effecta what do you mean non cycle???? If that means I have to reset for each burn that's a huge neg. I would only need a 50-100k unit. Not including the shop or barn, the HL is only 39kbtu for the house. Our grand marais cabin had an aqua therm and it was pretty easy to maintain and operate.
> 
> Wood for me is free , I have endless supply and until I get picky about specie it's all cut and split in Apple bins ready to go. I would prefer the Chinese elm or Brazilian cherry to oak, since it's about double the btu's if I were real concerned about the volume. I'm thinking anything I burn is saving me money, even if its only $750-$1000 per year. That will about cover my liscense's and CE's that the man keeps raising and implementing. Anything saved is a help these days.


 
Glad to see you are going to have seasoned wood ready. If you can stay ahead and have your wood c/s/s outside for a year, two or more years with your Oaks, your gassification boiler will be so much more enjoyable.
Did you decide on the Froling, or what boiler are you going with?


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## hobbyheater (Dec 29, 2013)

skfire said:


> . Extremely happy with choice and like you I was dumping 4,500/yr(2009 prices) to the LP pirates. At the end of next season the Froling will have paid for itself, tanks, pumps and all. I have ZERO issues with smell, smoke, mess in the house and that was a serious consideration on my selection due to an asthmatic child.
> Scott



Great  post and testimony !


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