# Question on my UPS



## olddawgsrule (Nov 13, 2011)

I have a 2 Werker Type 31MDC batteries and run a 400 watt inverter from it.
I bought a Sunforce 60 watt solar setup to charge it.

The batteries are 3 years old now and I'm not getting a recharge from my panels.

I've tested my panels for voltage and they're all producing.
I'm assuming, with the battery draw, I should be able test amperage???

That was the first question.

I charged up the batteries with my car charger (6amp) and got them to 100%.
Just hooked them up again (to check them) and found them at 50%.

The panels should be giving me 5amps (optimal I realize)..

I'm thinking the batteries need to be re-conditioned.
Can they?
Are they just old (3 years)?

Maybe I'm bleeding back voltage... panels?, inverter?

Do I just have the wrong batteries?

Oh ya.... Are this panels the problem?


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## woodgeek (Nov 14, 2011)

Don't know those specific batteries, but batteries are usually the first to go.  Assuming they are lead-acid, 3yrs is no big deal if they were properly charged and floated the entire time. If they were stored near discharged for any period of time they are likely shot.

To test the panels, read open circuit voltage and short circuit amps, they should match the specs on the panel.

Edit: Looked up the batteries...they are gel-type.  IIRC gel type cannot be reconditioned.


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## peakbagger (Nov 14, 2011)

I agree, gel cells have a 2 to 3 year life span. Lead acids can be ruined in 6 months but if treated properly and equalized on occasion will last 10 years. If you want a "forever" battery nickel iron batteries will last a lifetime, but have singificant limitations.


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## Jags (Nov 14, 2011)

Werker is the industry standard for UPS batteries.  I "have" had them go bad in 3 years, but typically they will run for 4 or 5.  They do not deal with mistreatment well.  They like to stay charged unless in use.  Do not allow them to sit partially discharged.  You should be able to measure amperage from your panels.  At a peak of 5 amps, these should really not have a problem.  There is usually very little vampire power involved with UPS.  A little, but not much.


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## olddawgsrule (Nov 15, 2011)

Arrived home in the daylight today and checked on my panels.
To my disappointment, 3 panels seem to be down...
Since there are only 4 to this setup... quite a loss...

I checked them this past spring and all were working fine.

Cleaned the contacts, nothing...
Cut off the plug-in and tested from the wire... nothing...

I'll be heading out there to remove one of the bad ones and open her up to test from the panel itself.
Since I'm well past warranty, can't see the hurt in trying.

With only 4 years with the panels, I just have a hard time believing the panel is bad.
Hoping it's the wires or connection to the panels.

Which leads me to the question.

I've tried to solder wires to other panels I have and can't seem to do it right (won't stick)
I also tried conductive epoxy, but found it to corrode fairly quickly (couple of months)

What do you recommend make the connection?


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## Jags (Nov 15, 2011)

olddawgsrule said:
			
		

> What do you recommend make the connection?



When soldering, are you sure that the area to be soldered does not have a coating on it?  Fine sand paper, pull a strip off, lay it across the end of the eraser on a pencil and scuff the area to be soldered.  Use non-corrosive flux.  Solder should stick.


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## Slow1 (Nov 15, 2011)

Jags said:
			
		

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Also - be sure that when you solder that the surface you are soldering to is getting hot - the solder should flow onto it.  Heat the surface and touch the cold solder onto it and it should melt and flow.  Don't touch the solder to your iron and drip it onto the surface to solder.

I've seen people heat the wire to be soldered and 'stick' it onto a cold contact and it won't stick.

Note, however, that you don't want to spend a long time heating the surface - it has to be a quick heat of just the area you are soldering to avoid heating areas you don't want to and causing damage.


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## Jags (Nov 15, 2011)

Slow1 said:
			
		

> Also - be sure that when you solder that the surface you are soldering to is getting hot - the solder should flow onto it.



Yep - its called "tinning".


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## olddawgsrule (Nov 15, 2011)

Appreciate the response!

I have a 100/140watt soldering iron.
Is this strong enough?

It is an 'older Weller' and hopefully putting out what it should...
Okay, so it was my Dad's, but I did say older...

I'm not having much luck with it.
Thinking I may need a new one.

What would you recommend?


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## Jags (Nov 15, 2011)

You should have more than enough power with the 100 watt setup.  What size wire are you soldering?


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## olddawgsrule (Nov 16, 2011)

Just dissected the first bad panel.
23g wire on it.

My other project panels I was trying to solder 17g wire it them.
   My theory was, if I'm running 17g to the house, then 17g on the panel. 

Unless told not to, I'll probably solder the 17g wire to repair the Sunforce panel.
Yes, that means the panel is not bad, Whoa!
I have voltage at the panel (not at the wires).
The solder joint must have broke and it wasn't even mine, it was the factory's.
Man do I feel better.


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## Jags (Nov 16, 2011)

olddawgsrule said:
			
		

> Just dissected the first bad panel.
> 23g wire on it.
> 
> My other project panels I was trying to solder 17g wire it them.
> ...



Just wondering if you iron is the type that is shaped like a gun??  If so, be very careful, you can overheat anything that is sensitive pretty darn easy with those.  Its kinda like bringing a sledge hammer to pound in a finish nail.


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## olddawgsrule (Nov 16, 2011)

Jags said:
			
		

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Yes it is!
I also have one that I call 'single tipped' like a pencil or wood burning tool.
Have a feeling you're going to tell me to get a new tip and use that one...

I'll check the wattage on it... should be 100 watts??


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## Jags (Nov 16, 2011)

olddawgsrule said:
			
		

> I'll check the wattage on it... should be 100 watts??



Nope - that will probably be between 35-60 watts (depending on model/make).  It really should be all that you need.  You using flux??  If not, you should be (non corrosive stuff).


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## olddawgsrule (Nov 16, 2011)

Jags said:
			
		

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Will be this time for sure!
I'll pick that up with the new tip.

Thank you for the input!


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## Jags (Nov 16, 2011)

olddawgsrule said:
			
		

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Yep - I have been micro/mini certified all the way up to leading in body work.  Got a few T-shirts.


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## olddawgsrule (Nov 16, 2011)

Forgot to ask...

Stay with the 23g off the panel or up to the 17g wire?

Short distance for these panels, 15 feet.


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## Jags (Nov 16, 2011)

olddawgsrule said:
			
		

> Forgot to ask...
> 
> Stay with the 23g off the panel or up to the 17g wire?
> 
> Short distance for these panels, 15 feet.



The 17Ga is gonna be sturdier - BUT - 17GA is much more stiff and can put pressure on whatever you are soldering to.  If this is something like a copper run on a circuit board, you may consider sticking with the small stuff.  If this is a solder lug that you are attaching to, the 17 (typically it would be 16 or 18 - wire is of even sizes) will work just fine.

Note: and your 23GA is gonna be either 22 or 24 GA.


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## olddawgsrule (Nov 16, 2011)

Jags said:
			
		

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You're better at gauging my wire, that's for sure!
I'm using my micrometer and averaging the measurement, then going to the conversion chart to get close....

It's not 'lugged' so looks like I'll use the smaller wire to come off the panels into the house.
I am working on a control panel to show me voltage/wattage (yet another project) and will come off that with the larger gauge wire (once set up).
Still not certain where the batteries will find there final resting area (yes, yet another project) and may need the larger wire to travel the distance.

Once again, thank you!


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## Jags (Nov 16, 2011)

olddawgsrule said:
			
		

> Still not certain where the batteries will find there final resting area (yes, yet another project) and may need the larger wire to travel the distance.
> 
> Once again, thank you!



Check this out for wire size for distance/amp for 12V systems:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/amps-wire-gauge-d_730.html


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## olddawgsrule (Nov 17, 2011)

Have the first of the 3 panels repaired!
It was the solder joint (from the factory) that failed.

Thank you all for your assistance.

Ya, I have yet another question...

It has always been my understanding that the array only works as good as it weakest point.
With the 3 bad panels off the array, the batteries came up today.
This enforces my belief.
One good panel is better than 1 good and 3 bad.

True?

If so, then adding one of my 'project panels' (11 watt) to this array (15watt) would reduce the production?
15 watt x 4 = 60 watt
11 watt x 5 = 55 watt

I figure there are a 1,000 other principals involved here that I have no idea of...
But is the basic principal correct?


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## Slow1 (Nov 18, 2011)

You may want to consider posting on another forum such as http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/ as there are folks there who really do this sort of thing day in and day out (much like folks here know their wood and stoves).


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## woodgeek (Nov 18, 2011)

series or parallel?  diodes?


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## olddawgsrule (Nov 18, 2011)

Slow1 said:
			
		

> You may want to consider posting on another forum such as http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/ as there are folks there who really do this sort of thing day in and day out (much like folks here know their wood and stoves).



I will check them out.


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## olddawgsrule (Nov 18, 2011)

woodgeek said:
			
		

> series or parallel?  diodes?



Panels and batteries are wire in parallel to increase amp and hold voltage.
Panels are not diode protected, but the charge controller is.

The array panels enter a junction, then single wire to the charge controller.

I figure with this setup I have no 'bleed back' from the battery, but could have effect from a dead panel.

I'm working on a control panel to independently monitor each panel.
Probably not the right place for this question, but I'll go for it.

I will add a blocking diode for each panel to avoid this problem again.
I'm assuming I only need to add it to the negative side (return side of power)??


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## woodgeek (Nov 18, 2011)

Your arrangement makes sense.  I think one diode per panel will be useful if you have any shading issues at all, but cost you a few % output if you don't.  Of course, it wouldn't help with a panel going open circuit, but it sounds like you have that under control.

One thing not mentioned....a fuse near the battery, or ideally in its box.  I have a little 'micro' system I set up, 20W panel and 40 Ah battery.  I put a 30A automotive fuse in the box for safety.  While it is low voltage, a big battery can certainly start a fire through a short.


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## Jags (Nov 18, 2011)

Good to hear that you got them soldered back up.

And No, I don't believe a 15W panel and an 11W panel in parallel will reduce your output from the 15W.

Edit: I am not a solar junkie, so maybe there is something that I am unaware playing into this.  I simply know zoomies.


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## olddawgsrule (Nov 18, 2011)

Slow1 said:
			
		

> You may want to consider posting on another forum such as http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/ as there are folks there who really do this sort of thing day in and day out (much like folks here know their wood and stoves).



I need to thank you once again for the suggestion.
The site is as good as this one.
Fast response from knowledgeable folks!
I will also recommend the site if we can not find a solution here.


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## olddawgsrule (Nov 18, 2011)

woodgeek said:
			
		

> Your arrangement makes sense.  I think one diode per panel will be useful if you have any shading issues at all, but cost you a few % output if you don't.  Of course, it wouldn't help with a panel going open circuit, but it sounds like you have that under control.
> 
> One thing not mentioned....a fuse near the battery, or ideally in its box.  I have a little 'micro' system I set up, 20W panel and 40 Ah battery.  I put a 30A automotive fuse in the box for safety.  While it is low voltage, a big battery can certainly start a fire through a short.



You have the fuse setup between the charge controller and the battery?
Or between the panels and the charge controller?

I'm setting up a control circuit (like I don't have enough projects) and believe this could be a good addition.


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## olddawgsrule (Nov 18, 2011)

Jags said:
			
		

> Good to hear that you got them soldered back up.
> 
> And No, I don't believe a 15W panel and an 11W panel in parallel will reduce your output from the 15W.
> 
> Edit: I am not a solar junkie, so maybe there is something that I am unaware playing into this.  I simply know zoomies.



I popped over to the site Slow1 recommended and they confirmed my understanding.
It will reduce production, but it looks like not all the way to the 11 watts.
I'm still trying to fully understand it myself...

Mis-match of watts or voltage leads towards the smaller of the watts/voltage.

If I have it right (which I'm still working on/learning), I would need to setup a second array/charge control to add these 11 watt panels and gain what they produce in addition to what I have already.

Seems like quite a pain in the butt...
I know, go out and buy a 200 watt panel and get it over with....
If only I could find the deal locally (no shipping involved)...


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## Jags (Nov 18, 2011)

olddawgsrule said:
			
		

> It will reduce production, but it looks like not all the way to the 11 watts.



Cool, so it acts like two resistors of different sizes in parallel.  Your final resistance will neither be as high as the big one, but won't be as low as the small one.


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## woodgeek (Nov 19, 2011)

olddawgsrule said:
			
		

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I have a fuse at the battery, nearest the + terminal, such that if I shorted anything outside the battery box, either on the line to the controller or the line to my inverter, it would pop the fuse, rather than surge through the wire and start a fire. Shorting the panels is not really a hazard (esp for these small panels).


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