# Looking for help - Most reliable Oil boiler



## smirnov3 (Mar 21, 2008)

My boiler is on its last legs (its over 60 years old), so I am looking to replace it

This oil fired boiler would have to provide hot water for heating a 2000 sqft house in MA.

Since I heat mostly with a pellet stove, the boiler does not have to be super fast responce (My current system is gravity feed (ie no pumps), and that works fine)

What it DOES need to be is reliable / low maintenance. the fewer moving parts the better

and at least 85% efficient

anybody have any ideas?


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## webbie (Mar 21, 2008)

I'm a bit old fashioned, but I might give up a few points in efficiency for simplicity, price and longevity. Also, I am not up to date on exact models....

But, Buderus is considered top of line for efficiency and also well engineered.

I suggest cast iron and 100% wet - meaning water surrounding all of it. Also a boiler which can take lower temp water without corrosion... I think most cast ones meet this spec.

Some regular names are
Weil-McClain

smith (made near here)
http://www.smithboiler.com/html/series8.asp

Peerless


My thinking is that you can't go wrong with something that your local oil man is familiar with. If price is important, a standard 85% AFUE cast model is fine, but if you want to go premium and squeeze every bit of heat out, something like the Buderus with outdoor reset, etc. can be an option.

That is my opinion, but I am not as informed as some here. I will move this to the Boiler Room since more experts are there.


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## wwburning (Mar 21, 2008)

I know many, including myself, with a Burnham. Very few if any problems. I'm currently on year 21 with mine; still gets 81.5%-82% eff.


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## smirnov3 (Mar 21, 2008)

I saw some info on a Peerless Oil fired that had 93% efficiency, But I have no idea how reliable it is (given how new they are, probably nobody else does either)

I've read good things about the Burnham, but I had heard that the Weil-McClain products were mediocre - requiring a lot more maintenance.

But a lot of this is anecdotal (and every installer seems to have their own favorite brand that they swear by), so I wanted to get some more input


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## webbie (Mar 21, 2008)

Anton, when it comes down to it most of these packaged boilers in the 85% range use similar components bought from elsewhere - burners, circs and controls. After you get done with those parts. you have a casting. Not too much in there that can break down. Again, my thinking is that changes when you go to the 90% range, so you are wise to dig around and get experiences in that realm. 

Even given the high price of oil, I would still probably go for the longevity...with gas it is a different matter, since the really high efficiency stuff IMHO is better proven there. If I were going to go upscale, I would look hard at Buderus because they have probably the largest installed base here.


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## steam man (Mar 22, 2008)

For the most part most newer boilers have a European influence with low mass to minimize standby losses and have an indirect fired heater. The 85%+ are typically a cast iron with a three pass design. All the major players probably tend to have them. I could list a dozen easily. One type , System 2000 is a low mass design with an energy manager to use all available heat generated. I understand there are others now that are incorporating this into their boilers. There are few burners used such as Beckett, Reillo, Carlin that make the rounds on a number of boilers. My take is that Reillo is a little more high end. I think that making sure you have any insulation improvements done along with an accurate heat loss for your house. I think there are either Federal or state tax credits for energy improvements where you can get some money out of the upgrades. Go to www.dsireusa.org to see what you can get. You'll probably find the new boiler is going to be a midget compared to what you have now and way more efficient. I suggest you go to www.oiltechtalk.com and read the forums (where you will probably start the equivalent of a bar brawl). Possibly also www.heatinghelp.com for some great discussions and insight. Of course their are fancier modulating type condensing boilers with higher efficiencies (which cost significantly more) out but for it seems what you want simpler is better. I will say that geographic location and installer will have their own ideas on what to sell. Good luck.


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## denn (Mar 23, 2008)

I use to sell the Weil-Mclain P-WTGO -3 for $1980 and the Slant-Fin TR-30-PT for $1850. I hear that Peerless are
Good boilers.
I put the Slant-Fin in our place. The Beckett burner is the best for easy service and everyone has parts.
There are better burners but not everyone knows how to service them correctly.
If a dealer is installing the boiler, the common way to charge is, total cost...boiler+material+getting rid of old boiler+labor
then add $2000
I like to put a 3'-4' hyd. hose from the burner. This makes serviceing easyer, you can swing the burner door open
with out bending or unhooking the line.


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## heaterman (Mar 23, 2008)

I have excellent results with Buderus and Viessmann oil fired equipment. Both manufacturers make 3 pass, wet base designs that are super easy to clean and will provide long service life. Maintenance that's easy to do will get done as a general rule of thumb. On both brands you simply take the bolts out of the door and it swings open on its hinges to expose the whole fire box and the heat exchanger. A clean boiler is a happy boiler! You will find that the most commonly used burner on both is manufactured by Riello although Carlin and Beckett are both available also. I love the Riello's. If set up correctly initially you can forget about having to re-adjust them. Maintenance is simple and consists of nozzle and electrode adjustments and that's about it.

Where things have *really* changed is in the control side of the system. Both Buderus and Viessmann have proprietary control packages available that will reset the water temperature in your system based on how cold it is outside. If you study the heat loss of your house you will find that it varies widely with the OD temp. The bottom line is that for 80-90% of the heating season you don't need anywhere near the typical 180-200* water temps currently provided by a standard on/off or bang bang control. The boiler in my house never gets over 160-165* and most of the time when the weather is in the 10-25* range the water temp is less than 140*. Saves a lot of fuel!! This type of control is called outdoor reset. In addition you'll find that the control package will include provision for running an indirect water heater which is far more efficient than a tankless coil which is common in a lot of older equipment. 

The inherent issue with lower temp operation is that a standard iron boiler will have problems with condensation. Both the Buderus and the Viessmann are actually designed to work at lower temps because in Europe, where both originate, it is actually illegal to run heating equipment with water temps over 167*F. This is a big thing. Both manufacturers have designed their boilers to run all the way down to nearly 100* water temp with no problems and they flat out work as advertised.

Burnham is a US manufacturer that has a boiler of this type also. 

Now.....all that being said, the issue of primary importance to you is the installer. How he sizes the system, his familiarity with the equipment he sells and his piping practices will determine to a greater extent than the equipment itself how efficiently it actually operates. I can't tell you how many messed up installations I have had the pleasure of repiping because of flow issues. I can't tell you how many boilers I have taken out that were sized 2X bigger than needed for the structure. Make sure your installer does a thorough heat loss calculation for your house and ask him to see it. It's probably the most important but most commonly skipped piece of work involved in a changeout situation. 

Again......do some homework on the control side of things. Simple on/off controls will use more of that nice $3.50/gallon fuel.

I noticed that you have a gravity system and I assume you have standing iron radiators along with it. If that's the case, you may want to investigate the Viessmann Vitola. This boiler will take any water temperature and is definitely the M1 Abrams tank of the boiler world. There is no other boiler like it made in the world by any manufacturer. It's made of stainless steel, iron and boiler steel, it's heavy and it's bulletproof. It will easily run over 88-90% in a low temperature application that you may very well have in your house.  If you have the $$.$$ it is truly without peer.
  I would stay away from the condensing oil equipment for right now. I've heard of a few "teething problems" with some of it as it is new technology for a lot of US manufacturers. Maintenance is higher and replacement part costs can easily eat up any additional energy savings over a well designed cast iron boiler.

http://www.viessmann.us/web/canada/ca_publish.nsf/Content/Oelkessel_ca_english

http://www.buderus.net/OurProducts/OilFiredBoilers/G115/tabid/87/Default.aspx


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## mtfallsmikey (Mar 24, 2008)

Veissmann, Buderus are the "Cadillacs", as far as conventional cast iron I've always sold Burnham.


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## egghead2004 (Oct 8, 2008)

Back in the 80s and 90s I mostly installed a basic Peerless JOT and WB models with Beckett burners. Simple, 85%+, parts widely available.
Later, just before leaving the #2 busines, I started installing Utica Starfires, again wet based cast but with cast push nipples instead of the stainless nipples Peerless used. Again, very good boilers, easy maintenance, no nonsense. 

I still see some of my old customers here and there and even up to 25 years later, many of the old Peerless JOTs and WBs are still running well with Becket AF and AFG burners. I haven't heard from and Utica customers, but I have one in my house. It is a 4 section wet base, 7 years old and runs good, but I have never been able to calm down the ignition bang and running noise. I can't say it is the burner/boiler combo for sure, it could be the location of the boiler...right in front of a 4'*2' bump out in my foundation. I think the deep frequency sounds are collecting and reflecting back, sort of like a subwoofer. I have never had this issue with Utica before with noise, so I just accept it as bad placement. 

I don't like bashing copmpanies, but the moment Wiel-Mclein went to the gold series in the early 90s, they lost all respect from me. For years they made some of the most dependable and service friendly boilers...until the gold. I can't tell you how many burner replacements i did on those old 1950s donut boilers and there are still a lot of them out there. 

I would keep it simple and easy maintenance. Wet base cast only for sure.


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Oct 15, 2008)

Remember: AFUE numbers are based upon "wide open" operation.  That's the efficiency of the boiler when it is running right at the edge of its capacity, with the burner running continuously, in the dead of winter.  They do not account for standby losses relating to boiler cycling.

If the boiler is oversized, or the weather is not sufficient to make it run full-blast, your actual system efficiency will drop.

Some "85% AFUE" boilers will run 50% efficient (or even less) if the system design does not properly address standby/cycle losses.

Joe


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## Turbozcs2003 (Oct 16, 2008)

Joe

Could you describe what poor piping practice is and why it impacts efficiency???

I have a 10 yr old Peerless with Beckett gun, 3 zones(2 upstairs, 1 on main floor with 3 zone valves and signle pump) and the boiler had the tankless coil. I had an indirect crown megastorr put on for the hot water. I had a seperate pump added for the "zone" for the indirect tank and I didnt abandon the coil(output declined due to minerals in water, have high magnesium in town water) fed the supply to the indirect off the tankless coil, I fiugred why heat street water the extra 70 degrees.

I have the boiler cleaned  each year, tech said main problem is gasket at tankless coil and sometimes the controls. 
also said not to lower the setpoint too low on the aquasta or will run into condensation problems.  

I notice some folks shutting the boilers off during off season and switching to electric hot water heaters, doesnt this mess up the gaskets in the boiler?


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Oct 16, 2008)

TurboZ said:
			
		

> Could you describe what poor piping practice is and why it impacts efficiency???



"Poor piping practice" is a general term for improper piping.  That can include installing pipes crooked, and other cosmetic issues.

Some examples do impact efficiency.  A zone which is served by a circulator, without a check or zone valve, causing gravity flow to dump some heat from the boiler, cycling the system even when the thermostat is satisfied.  A large boiler with multiple small zones can short cycle when only a tiny zone is calling.  Similarly, piping which is too small can restrict flow and cause short cycling.

Other things which impact efficiency are draft regulators and indoor combustion air (each takes heated air from the structure and sends it up the chimney), lack of thermal break between the boiler block and the basement floor, heavy boilers with large water content (which often take a decent fraction of a gallon of oil just to heat the mass of the boiler and water, before you get any useful heat).

These are generally small losses, but over thousands (or tens of thousands) of cycles during a heating season, they add up.



			
				TurboZ said:
			
		

> I have a 10 yr old Peerless with Beckett gun, 3 zones(2 upstairs, 1 on main floor with 3 zone valves and signle pump) and the boiler had the tankless coil. I had an indirect crown megastorr put on for the hot water. I had a seperate pump added for the "zone" for the indirect tank and I didnt abandon the coil(output declined due to minerals in water, have high magnesium in town water) fed the supply to the indirect off the tankless coil, I fiugred why heat street water the extra 70 degrees.
> 
> I have the boiler cleaned  each year, tech said main problem is gasket at tankless coil and sometimes the controls.
> also said not to lower the setpoint too low on the aquasta or will run into condensation problems.



And this is the other big one.  Your boiler stays hot even in the summer, which uses a tremendous amount of oil.



			
				TurboZ said:
			
		

> I notice some folks shutting the boilers off during off season and switching to electric hot water heaters, doesnt this mess up the gaskets in the boiler?



It can.  If the boiler has been cycled from cold to hot for its whole life, this generally doesn't cause a problem.  If, on the other hand, it's been kept warm for decades, the gaskets may take a "set" at the warm position, and can't flex back to the cold position properly.

Joe


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## eba1225 (Oct 16, 2008)

Anton,

I have a Peerless boiler with a Riello burner.  Seems to be working nicely on 3rd year.  Sounds like a jet engine.

I tried to get a high efficiency one but my exhaust rise from the basement was too great.


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## heaterman (Oct 17, 2008)

The factor most often overlooked or even avoided is sizing the boiler correctly. The boiler's output should closely match the calculated heat loss of the house. I try to never go over by more than 10%. 

I'll give you an actual case. We replaced a Weil McClain pin type boiler with a Viessmann Vitorond 3 years ago. The system was only a two zone, walkout basement and main floor and I calculated the heat loss for the house at around 68,000 btu from what I remember. The Weil was firing a 1.00 GPH nozzle and the Viessmann we installed used a .40 @ 175PSI for an output of around 72,000 or so. We corrected the near boiler piping and installed Viessmann's KW-10 control which has outdoor reset built in. The home owner gleefully told me that his fuel consumption went from nearly 1,100 gallons per season to less than 800. At today's prices that's almost $1200 annually. Regardless of what brand of boiler you choose, avoid any installer that doesn't do a heat loss calc before they suggest the size of boiler you need.


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Oct 17, 2008)

heaterman said:
			
		

> The factor most often overlooked or even avoided is sizing the boiler correctly. The boiler's output should closely match the calculated heat loss of the house. I try to never go over by more than 10%.



Indeed.  The only problem with that is when you need a certain number of btus to give you domestic hot water recovery, and the heat loss of the house is much less than that.  For a family with teenagers, you may need 100kbtuh to heat the domestic hot water, but the heat loss of the house is only 50kbtuh.  That's when thermal storage can be used (assuming they really want to go oil) or a mod/con gas boiler.  Or a secondary heat source for the domestic hot water (eg, tankless water heater).

Of course, it's often hard to do it right, and still compete with the guy who "will give them a really good deal on this 250kbtuh boiler that's been sitting in the back of his warehouse."  True story, that... just spoke with a colleague yesterday who was doing an annual service on a 250kbtuh boiler installed in an 1100-square-foot house, and could not convince the homeowner that he had been cheated in the "deal" he got.

Personally, I wish them the best of luck with that, and encourage them to carefully record their fuel bills...

Joe


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## heaterman (Oct 17, 2008)

BrownianHeatingTech said:
			
		

> heaterman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If DHW from the boiler is present in a given situation it of course has to be taken into consideration along with the heat loss. 
 When I read or see something like your example of the 250K boiler in an 1100 sq ft house.............I don't know.........all kinds of methods for inflicting bodily harm to the installer come to mind. I've never seen a house that needed 200 btu's per sq ft have you Joe? :O
  The guy obviously didn't have his customers best interest at heart. Nor does he care one bit about preserving our resources. The homeowner will reap the "benefits" of his "great deal" as long as that boiler is in his basement. I'm guessing it will cost him 30-40% more every year than a correctly sized unit would.
Recording their fuel bills would be a good thing to do. When they take him to court after a couple years of horrendous fuel bills they'll have something to show the judge. That installation qualifies as malpractice any way one would look at it.


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## velvetfoot (Oct 17, 2008)

I don't want to go too far astray, but the ~4 year old Burnham boiler with Argo controls was able to have an outdoor reset added to it for about a 100 bucks-very easy, but you have to have the right Argo stuff, etc.

What do you pros think of outdoor air for the Burnham boiler?  They sell a kit that's again, about a 100 bucks I think.


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Oct 17, 2008)

heaterman said:
			
		

> If DHW from the boiler is present in a given situation it of course has to be taken into consideration along with the heat loss.



Yeah, that ends up being the problem.  Heat loss is usually lower than the DHW demand, so the boiler ends up being oversized for the heat loss.



			
				heaterman said:
			
		

> When I read or see something like your example of the 250K boiler in an 1100 sq ft house.............I don't know.........all kinds of methods for inflicting bodily harm to the installer come to mind. I've never seen a house that needed 200 btu's per sq ft have you Joe? :O



Highest I've seen was 45 btu's per square foot.  That was an uninsulated farmhouse with single-pane windows.



			
				heaterman said:
			
		

> The guy obviously didn't have his customers best interest at heart. Nor does he care one bit about preserving our resources. The homeowner will reap the "benefits" of his "great deal" as long as that boiler is in his basement. I'm guessing it will cost him 30-40% more every year than a correctly sized unit would.
> Recording their fuel bills would be a good thing to do. When they take him to court after a couple years of horrendous fuel bills they'll have something to show the judge. That installation qualifies as malpractice any way one would look at it.



This one has been in for over 10 years, so it's worse than just a couple years of high bills.  It's also set up with constant circulation through the hydro-air coil (the thermostat only controls the blower)("why is it always so warm in here during the summer?"), and a host of other problems.

Joe


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Oct 17, 2008)

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> I don't want to go too far astray, but the ~4 year old Burnham boiler with Argo controls was able to have an outdoor reset added to it for about a 100 bucks-very easy, but you have to have the right Argo stuff, etc.
> 
> What do you pros think of outdoor air for the Burnham boiler?  They sell a kit that's again, about a 100 bucks I think.



Outdoor reset, or indoor reset (or both) can be added to most systems.  There are also economizers, which do seem to work.

Outdoor air is a good idea, as well.  Just take care with the pipe diameter and length, and remember that you will have to re-adjust the combustion after the kit is installed, as it will change the airflow.

Joe


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Oct 17, 2008)

I am as far from an expert on oil boilers as you can get . . .

So far I am happy with my Viessman/Riello with outdoor reset. Getting the shift and slope setting correct tries my patience a bit though.

But when it comes to penny-pinching . . . I last had a (275) tank fill in October of *2007* . . . the gauge currently reads about 7/8 . . . no matter how you look at it thats a year of heat on 4k [] in upstate NY, plus a year of hot water to 3 1/2 baths, all for less than 100 gal of fuel oil . . .!!

Oh, nevermind that green colored beast in the shed behind the house . . .


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## hotcookcpl (Oct 23, 2008)

I've had a Viessmann for 8 heating seasons now and I can tell you, I am so happy I put that boiler in.  I did most of the work myself and I got a lot of grief from my family for putting in such a high end unit.  Few family members could understand why I wouldn't settle for a cheaper system.  Well, after all this time it has paid for itself and then some.  With radiant underfloor heat in half the house I use just around 600 gallons of oil a year for both heat and DHW.  When my last "winter" tank of oil is delivered in mid spring I won't see another oil delivery until late October and even then they don't have to add much to the tank.  No one laughs at my high end system now.

To make things even more amusing one of relatives even put in a high end Buderus oil fired boiler that comes close in effiency to my Viessmann.  It's nice to be leader sometimes.


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