# Boiler Special $19700.00 plus 15% tax



## BoilerBob (May 3, 2013)

Lady down the road was all excited her boiler was coming soon. I seen the price on her brochure. I almost had a heart attack. Salesman told her a few blocks a day would heat her house, barn and swimming pool all winter. 





*E-Classic 3200*
_Ignition Ready_
*US $16,065*  * MSRP ** 
   -$600  _ Spring Rebate_
*$15,465*  


FINANCE NOW

Door
Firebox
Weight
Water Capacity
        22.5"x28.5"
40"x48"x30"
3,050 lbs.
410 Gallons



8-Hr Output Rating 
12-Hr Output Rating 

Manufacturer’s Rated
Heat Output Capacity      262,000 Btu/hr †
175,000 Btu/hr   


306,000 Btu/hr †


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## NCFord (May 3, 2013)

Is that installed?  I hope so!  I guess boiler salesmen are learning something from car salesmen.


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## Floydian (May 3, 2013)

BoilerBob said:


> Lady down the road was all excited her boiler was coming soon.


 
Wow, too bad she didn't know about The Boiler Room before buying that expensive thing.

IMO, all OWB's, gasser's or not, should be required to list the standby heat loss(btus/hr) in the specs. Could take more than "a few blocks a day" just to cover the standby losses, assuming those blocks are dry. I'm sure the salesman made all that clear when he took the deposit.


Noah


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## BoilerBob (May 3, 2013)

Now I understand why they make the firebox so big, for a few blocks a day.

She might have to order a hydraulic lifter like this.


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## heaterman (May 4, 2013)

Good Grief!  I gotta raise my prices.....I just quoted a guy's new house complete for a little over $19K including the ventilation system, all the infloor tubing, chimney, the Windhager pellet boiler and all the zone piping.....

But hey, That's Central for you. They have pretty much mastered the promotion and marketing of their product and they do that particular aspect of sales better than anyone else. That thing will probably heat her house, pool etc all winter but she better have about 25 cord of wood processed and be ready to feed that thing night and day.


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## BoilerMan (May 4, 2013)

To me it's sad that "a few blocks a day" is touted and people don't do any research and actually believe it!  Having not seen this house barn and pool, I cannot speak, but that's a large load I'm sure.  And we don't know what "a few blocks a day" really is, I'm guessing 25+ cord of blocks as well.  Even at 100% efficiency which we all know is not possible, "a few blocks a day" won't have enough BTUs to heat one of those items, but again we have not seen any of this and my idea of a "block" of wood is something that is still in need of splitting and stacking so I can dry it and actually get 80% or so of the BTUs in it to heat my house etc.

TS


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## BrotherBart (May 4, 2013)

I see an ice rink in her future.


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## BoilerBob (May 4, 2013)

I was really bothered by this, because I know a few blocks a day won't cover her heat load in that boiler. Her hubby works away for 30 days at a time. But she was OK with feeding the boiler by herself and she was very adament on her choice. When I asked her if they had researched different types of boilers or other companies, she told me I could not change her mind.

I would never spend 20g to 30g on a boiler system that I have to feed north of 15 cord per year, as we all know is very likely.

Heck, I wouldn't spend 1g on a system I had to feed 15 plus cord /yr. 

I just don't get it.


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## BoilerMan (May 5, 2013)

Sometimes I have to wonder if it's the price point that makes people think they are getting some "state of the art" wood burning system.  Well if we spend 20 g's on this unit it must be able to do what they say, and no one else's system can even come close because they don't have the "super efficient tech." that this system will!  Marketing.

TS


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## Chris Hoskin (May 6, 2013)

So why do people keep buying these things?  It is my understanding the Central sells more boilers each year than all the high efficiency indoor equipment suppliers combined.  What is the message that is resonating so strongly with homeowners?  Obviously something I've thought a lot about, but I would really appreciate any feedback on this.  Thank in advance.  Chris


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## maple1 (May 6, 2013)

Dang, had a reply typed then hit the wrong button.

I'm in the same area. Simply: honest general consumer ignorance. I was actually likely in that segment before I found this place.

Nobody is selling more efficient alternatives. Gassification? Storage? Nobody's heard of them. If nobody's selling anything better, how do you know there's something better?

Even worse when there are 3 manufacturers within an hour from me and they are all still in the dark ages with their wood technology. There should be opportunities for manufacturers and dealers/installers (and by extension consumers) in this situation. Very aggravating....


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## mikefrommaine (May 6, 2013)

My neighbors son in law is a 'rich' doctor living in a 4500 square foot McMansion. When he realized what it would cost him to heat the place with oil he bought a CB. Said he was going to cut the wood on his own land and heat the place for free.  That worked for most of the first year. This last year he had two truckloads of tree length green hardwood delivered in October. He cut it to length right before he fed the boiler. 

Apparently it didn't last as long as he hoped -- About a month ago my neighbor was cutting pine trees down and loading them onto his trailer. I asked him what he was going to do with it?  He said the grandkids were gonna be cold at night since they had run out of wood... AND THEY STILL THINK I'M CRAZY for _cutting and splitting_ 8-9 cords of pine to heat a 3500 sq. foot house


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## skfire (May 6, 2013)

Chris Hoskin said:


> So why do people keep buying these things? It is my understanding the Central sells more boilers each year than all the high efficiency indoor equipment suppliers combined. What is the message that is resonating so strongly with homeowners? Obviously something I've thought a lot about, but I would really appreciate any feedback on this. Thank in advance. Chris


 
Up here in Northeastern Pa, most people seem to not even want to engage in the "gassing is better" conversation when they hear about things such as "storage", boiler protection pumps, extra piping , dump zones etc...
They only care about the "sales pitch slogans" that have become the norm in "wood burning boilers", ie,
a) this thing will burn anything
b) you only feed it once of twice a day
c) no need to split anything, just chuck the half logs in, no need for toothpicks(my fav..15cords of half logs,
    or 6 cords of small splits..what a conundrum)
d) run an open system..you do not even need a HX, just convert your system to an open loop(love that one)
e) it will last the same as any other boiler...(good one) and we have all the parts you may need...but not usual.
f) it needs almost no maintenance..just clean out the ashes..my brother in law has found out about that one.)
g) we usually bury the lines about a foot or two down,..we have some real good insulated pipes...
h) we will deliver and set on your pad..no extra cost
i) it has a roof on it and real good insulation...so no worries regarding the elements.
i) etc etc....and free bologna

By the time they have dropped up to 20k on the system, they start finding out the extra money or work needed to get the extra 10 cord they did not plan on and it is starting to get annoying.
Then the parts start warping and rusting of...now they are getting pissed
3-4 years in, it has become a cumbersome operation
5-7 years...they have a metal lawn ornaments and are switching back to oil,
Then, they hear gassser and say..I am done with wood..too expensive and way too many headaches.

Of course not true across the board on all OWBs...many are doing great and some(P&M) are built very well, but it's a standard scenario for many others.

IMHO...the consumers are at fault for not investigating the claims and performances of the products, but conversely the dealers are completely immoral and ignorant or worse...and I am not advocating for Government intervention, but if stupidity rules, then what? Darwin may have been right, but the fallout is greater than just individual elimination from the pool. The problem becomes systemic.

Scott


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## heaterman (May 6, 2013)

That pretty much sums it up Scott. CB and others like them have made burning wood very uncomplicated as far as the operation of their equipment is concerned. Nice packaging, nice looking control panel, easy to use, not finicky about what you burn.....or maybe a better word is digest, in them. They also have the EPA in their back pocket from what I can tell and that doesn't hurt matters any.
The down side is horrible air pollution anywhere within 400 yards downwind, (the equivalent of something like 400 packs of cigarettes being smoked in your yard or 4 semi's idling 24/7), utterly grotesque efficiency, and what is probably the worst thing; they give wood burning in general a very black eye. If it keeps going the way it is right now, there will come a time when wood burning is severely curtailed or maybe banned altogether in the name of being environmentally friendly.

I have to relate this........When I was in Austria this past February I went to a very large trade show for wood/pellet burning equipment. I was looking through the list of manufacturers there and .........behold and forsooth, verily I say unto you........CB was listed as being there. All the big guns in the industry were there, Viessmann, Windhager, Okofen, Froling, Atmos, EKO, to name a few of the basic wood oriented products, and then there was a host of lesser known but very high quality chip burners and other wood/pellet equipment
This was interesting because I was trying to explain the concept and design of an OWB to Windhager's export manager just the day before and he was having a hard time with the whole premise of operation and concept. Kept asking, "why".....

So I went hunting for CB's display thinking I would show him what I was talking about. They were not to be found in the main display area anywhere but the show was in multiple buildings so I thought they were maybe in a different one. About halfway through the day I hear someone calling my name and it was Bernhard from Windhager wanting me to come along with him. Turns out he had found CB's booth and wanted to know if that was what I was talking about. We went and looked and listened to the salesman's hype, Bernhard was enthralled....maybe that's not the best word because the look on his face was a mixture of amazement and disbelief at what we were being told. At any rate when we left he said, "I can see why they put them in a different building". I just chuckled and said I wished we could do the same in the US. I have no idea how they are able to sell them over in the EU given their air quality standards but they are trying to get their foot in the door there too.


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## heaterman (May 6, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> My neighbors son in law is a 'rich' doctor living in a 4500 square foot McMansion. When he realized what it would cost him to heat the place with oil he bought a CB. Said he was going to cut the wood on his own land and heat the place for free. That worked for most of the first year. This last year he had two truckloads of tree length green hardwood delivered in October. He cut it to length right before he fed the boiler.
> 
> Apparently it didn't last as long as he hoped -- About a month ago my neighbor was cutting pine trees down and loading them onto his trailer. I asked him what he was going to do with it? He said the grandkids were gonna be cold at night since they had run out of wood... AND THEY STILL THINK I'M CRAZY for _cutting and splitting_ 8-9 cords of pine to heat a 3500 sq. foot house


 

What you said Mike.........Driving around the countryside I see many....I mean a LOT, of recently built McMansions with OWB's sitting outside and it makes me wonder what they were thinking when the built that humongous place. Sure the builder told them it was very well insulated and efficient (maybe compared to a 1930's house) but it's still 4,000-6,000 sq ft  Even at a heat loss of 15 btu/sq ft you are still talking 60-90,000 btu /hour at typical design temps for Northern tier states. That's 1 gallon of LP gas per hour when it gets really cold. $40-50 per DAY!! at our prices around here. So maybe there are a lot of people who have money to burn on a house but no common sense.....or something to that effect.....
As someone else said here, a few years down the road and the OWB is sitting there unused because they have just resigned themselves to paying $3-4,000 per year for fuel and their $10-20K "invesment" didn't pan out quite like they thought it was going to. They sad part is, they are soured on burning wood pretty much forever.


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## heaterman (May 6, 2013)

BoilerBob, We need a report on this situation along about the end of February 2014.........


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## chewy (May 6, 2013)

Well I can't speak for anyone else, but my "free heat machine" hybrid fire 150 is the cats meow!  I just love this thing.  It burns up words of %20 percent efficient.  I mean why on earth would you want the mess inside?  Oh and if you're worried about not seeing what the f  you are doing at 2am when it's time for more wood,  not to worry it has a light bulb!  It's funny when I hear people talk about there 2 burning chambers and heat transfer and 2000* bla bla bla....  I just sit back and laugh and know that my hybrid fire is taking care of me. (It's a different kind of gasification) 

I would recommend this owb to my worst enemy.

Erin


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## 711mhw (May 6, 2013)

View attachment 101502


Chris Hoskin said:


> So why do people keep buying these things? It is my understanding the Central sells more boilers each year than all the high efficiency indoor equipment suppliers combined. What is the message that is resonating so strongly with homeowners? Obviously something I've thought a lot about, but I would really appreciate any feedback on this. Thank in advance. Chris


 
It might be that seeing them in the yard, smoke billowing away, has the same effect as the stupid waving-dancing inflatable, attention getting blow up things you see at the car dealership.


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## arbutus (May 7, 2013)

The question: WHY?
The answer:  Ignorance, often willful (closer to stupidity then).

I heated my former house with something akin to a barrel stove made out of 1/4 inch plate.  11 full cords of wood, reasonably dry, for a year's worth of uneven heat, roaring hot then cold four hours later. We did that for a few years then bought the largest Pacific Energy stove we could find, night and day difference in regulating the heat, and we burned half the wood.

Go to another outdoors type forum and ask which wood stove is best to heat the house, and there will be a few that recommend a setup like we first had, on the basis that these newfangled EPA approved government regulated stoves are hard to light (only difficult with wet wood), don't put out a good heat (only if "good heat" means "glowing cherry red"), and can't dampen down at night (no, not all the way, but we're using it to heat, which you need at night, not make charcoal, and who cares about CO poisoning anyway?)

Two houses near our previous place put OWBs in.  I stopped in to speak with both of them, they showed me their setups, and seemed happy.  Lots of wood, mostly green, was being consumed.  There was wood available for free in that area, so no loss to them other than their time.

What I found obnoxious about that setup was the frequent yard full of smoke.
I came here a month ago and started reading and was surprised at all of these strange brands, with no mention of Central Boiler, Hawken, or any others.  Someone here had compared the OWB to a washtub over a campfire, and, having spent time next to a poor family that did their laundry in a washtub over a fire in the driveway, it is an excellent comparison.

I haven't settled on a boiler for our new to us house, but I'm considering the Empyre Elite 100, EKO 40, and Woodgun E140.
I'm not even sure I want to drop the money on a hydronic system, even though that is the least intrusive replacement for the current expensive electric baseboard heat.

I do have five+ cords of split maple being delivered over the course of the next week, after learning the importance of DRY wood for these boilers.



Europeans are much different than Americans when it comes to discerning quality as well.  I've heard the tale of an American housewife shopping for fish, and buying something based on price.  The European housewife will waft her hand over the fish, and determine the stuff on sale, while a good price, is a week old, and will buy something else.


A real example ... I just bought a Honeywell Braukmann sediment filter for my house.  This thing cost two or three times what a comparable Vu Flow filter or similar size cartridge filter would have, but it is STOUT, very well made, and I'm reasonably certain that the plastic isn't going to degrade and crack after a few years, nor am I going to have to suffer slow weeping leaks as reviewed on Amazon.


Thus endeth the wall of text.


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## BoilerMan (May 8, 2013)

Solid-fuelled (well wood only) systems are so user-dependant.  The fuel quality&type, loading frequency, fireside cleanlyness, etc....  are all such huge variables.  I've been trying to figure out the CB folk for quite sometime now, I know several CB users.  They all are happy, with the huge amount of wood they burn annually, I even know one who burns into the summer for DHW.  One will even admit that he'd burn far less wood if he had a gasser (he is a heating guy no less), but continues to stuff it anf shut it.  Arbutus, not everything in Europe is better, having a Europens car collection and a true appreciation for good quality, I can say they do have many things right, but they do have their downfalls.  I truly don't understand why we (Americans) don't have the same high quality material craftsmanship as they produce in Europe though.  We do make some wicked rugged stuff, it just is not available to the public.

TS


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## NE WOOD BURNER (May 9, 2013)

The outdoor boiler is not the entire problem. Education will help. I cut my wood for an outdoor unit and had it dry went to purchase the unit and laws changed. The EPA approved outdoor units passed EPA as a batch burner not as a constant fire. The EPA OWB are now too expensive to achieve any savings. I went to see 5 differant e-classics in operation not one had the proper dry wood. So I think they get a bum deal based on end users misunderstanding based on some sales pitches(from friends and relitives also) that they have heard. This is how I found this site as I looked for alternate methods.
What I have found here on this site. #1 thing: heat loss calculations to properly size the boiler and system #2 seek advice from many differant sources(more than one way to skin the cat)
Many OWB owners have too large of a unit for extended burn times. because its easier for many to justify just buying the bigger one for a few extra bucks.

I believe it it a shame we have divided indoor boilers and OWB. IMHO the differance is really the manner in the way we burn wood constant fire vs batch burning.
Batch burning to storage even with a non-gasser indoor or outdoor is much better. the problem is cost to implement. it wont happened till we are forced(laws).

Benifits of an OWB (IMO): 1. mess outside 2. no taxes on the boiler 3.relatively easy retrofit install

After reading/educating on this site I have learned much more about central heating with wood boilers. but now I will only achieve benifit number 1 (mess outside). the real benefits I will gain though is long term reliability,less wood consumption.

I would think there exists a real business oportunity for an indoor wood boiler company to collaborate with Central Boiler and produce a real performance OWB at a modest price.

IMHO


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## heaterman (May 9, 2013)

*real performance OWB at a modest price........*

From what I see and what I know about the "inner workings" of burning wood efficiently and cleanly, those two factors are mutually exclusive.
Making both happen in the same piece of equipment is physically impossible. Either goal diminishes the chance of the other happening. If it were not so, it would have been done already because the requirements for a clean, efficient burn have been understood by all the manufacturers and engineers who are truly involved in the business for a long time.
It's time for the wood burning community to face the real costs associated with doing things right.


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## NE WOOD BURNER (May 9, 2013)

heaterman said:


> It's time for the wood burning community to face the real costs associated with doing things right.


 

I agree!

The key to me was realizing Im installing a full central heating system. Not just buying a boiler and heat exchanger. This has more variables to ponder.

Imagine for a minute you could buy a state of the art lambda controlled boiler that is self enclosed for outside installation and purchase the necessary heating system(plumbing&storage) Say for $15,000 from one knowledgable dealer. Then the end user can then shop the work for the install based on real data provided for the boiler and system.
The real performance owb at a modest price would be the unit itself. many variables to consider the system.

I disagree a bit on "it would have been done already" the market dictates what is produced. The classic OWB has a great following and many units are out there. they are bringing big money used on craigslist and they dont last long. That is why education is needed as most people burn would with a constant fire. So the opportunity is to capture the market with a real player and produce an OWB(gasser/batch burner) unit that works with a heating system designed properly for the aplication.

my misconception with the OWB models was that I thought the water storage was acting as a thermal storage but reality it works as a heat transfer method.


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## NE WOOD BURNER (May 9, 2013)

Chris Hoskin said:


> So why do people keep buying these things? It is my understanding the Central sells more boilers each year than all the high efficiency indoor equipment suppliers combined. What is the message that is resonating so strongly with homeowners? Obviously something I've thought a lot about, but I would really appreciate any feedback on this. Thank in advance. Chris


 
IMHO: because Central has provided a product based on an available market. The Market dictates always. Indoor boilers are just that indoor boilers. Put a shroud around it and call it a OWB and get it approved by EPA and sell it as an OWB.
blend your technology with what the market wants, change the laws and you have a recipe for making profits. CB has no real competition in my area so they name their price. the only discount is manufacturer rebates. which means dealer makes profit.

If I was building new I would design with an indoor wood boiler and indoor storage with radiant heat. with a local supplier with a storefront.

To heat my existing home currently I just want to put a unit outside next to my wood storage and pipe it to my basement indoor storage(open or closed). So I look allover for a solution.
IMHO all the boilers are too costly.
As a note: just returned from WI. saw three differant CB tractor trailers. I did not see any other brands on the road. Brand recognition! Business CB has done well they now have a product priced at or above most indoor units and they are selling! amazing. If CB builds an indoor unit I bet they would sell it.
If wood boilers where my business, I would collaborate early and get in on the ground floor.

if OWB get banned 100% then to remain the logical thing would be to produce indoor models or go out of business.
If IWB do not sell then to remain one would need to team with an OWB company to capitalize on their market.

I went looking at first to buy aCB OWB thinking I would have some inefficiency in wood consumption but also thinking in my mind I wanted to be in the $5000-8000 range. So I guess in a way the OWB market is allowing indoor models to get brand awareness.


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## arbutus (May 9, 2013)

NE WOOD BURNER said:


> I would think there exists a real business oportunity for an indoor wood boiler company to collaborate with Central Boiler and produce a real performance OWB at a modest price.​


 

I agree.

It would wind up being something like the Pro-Fab Empyre Pro or Elite XT lines with a regionally popular name.

Most indoor gassifiers are still seem to be near double the going rate of OWBs, starting at $7-8000 vs $3.5-4000


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## NE WOOD BURNER (May 9, 2013)

arbutus said:


> Most indoor gassifiers are still seem to be near double the going rate of OWBs, starting at $7-8000 vs $3.5-4000


 
Check out the EPA OWB that are required now in many states. A bit more than your owb range you mentioned. Non epa are in your owb range.


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## dogwood (May 9, 2013)

Chris, most people I've spoken to in Virginia anyway have never heard of a wood gasification boiler. I happened to stumble across a Greenwood ad and then this site on-line, otherwise would have never heard of them either.  Many around here have OWBs however. For one, there are dealers around and you can drive by and see OWBs every time you are on Rte 220. A lot more publicizing needs to be done. Almost everyone I've talked top about our Solo Innova is interested even the OWB boiler owners, so its not a lack of interest. If you could run ads like GEICO does, every minute of every day, things might be different. Gasifiers are like a well kept secret.

Mike


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## maple1 (May 9, 2013)

arbutus said:


> I agree.
> 
> It would wind up being something like the Pro-Fab Empyre Pro or Elite XT lines with a regionally popular name.
> 
> Most indoor gassifiers are still seem to be near double the going rate of OWBs, starting at $7-8000 vs $3.5-4000


 
Really? My indoor gasser is around $5500 list. I have seen Ekos advertised for much less than that. What OWBs are priced at half of that? The CB in the first post is around 3 times that.


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## arbutus (May 9, 2013)

maple1 said:


> Really? My indoor gasser is around $5500 list. I have seen Ekos advertised for much less than that. What OWBs are priced at half of that? The CB in the first post is around 3 times that.


 
The EKO is on the low side.
What others cost less than $6000? I'm shopping right now!








NE WOOD BURNER said:


> Check out the EPA OWB that are required now in many states. A bit more than your owb range you mentioned. Non epa are in your owb range.


 
I'm still new to wood boilers.  Michigan doesn't require EPA OWBs as far as I know.


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## mikefrommaine (May 9, 2013)

dogwood said:


> most people I've spoken to in Virginia anyway have never heard of a wood gasification boiler.


 

Most OWB owners I've spoken to don't want to hear anything about a gasser -- something about too much work to cut and split wood -- then they stick their head back in the sand. A quick google search of "wood boiler review" brings up plenty of info about alternatives. This Hearh.com thread is the third result. And a "wood boiler" google search brings up lots of gassification boilers.


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## skfire (May 9, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> Most OWB owners I've spoken to don't want to hear anything about a gasser -- something about too much work to cut and split wood -- then they stick their head back in the sand.


 
Poetically timed, just left a friend's house and was talking to his neighbor down the road, he had an OWB and
3 tri axle loads of logs...he just bought from the logger down the road for $ 1,800..he was happy as a clam, said he got a good deal on his wood supply for the next 2 years

I could not stand it..I opened my trap and told him in my system that would be 6-7 years. After I gave him the gasser particulars...he said it wasn't worth it..all that splitting and stacking and moving..I tried explaining that splitting 5-6 cord a year even in smalls, beats the hell out of dealing with 12-15 cord a year...he shrugged it off with no intelligible reply..

Next I brought up the finite and conservation aspect of future wood burning..that didn't go well at all.
It is evident the media brain washing has worked well...if one mentions conservation they equate it with liberalism..._Conservatives practice conservation_ I retorted...Has English been taken out of the school curriculum along with Civics????..I pretty much wasted my time....So there you have it.

I think Mike nailed it.

Scott


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## Badfish740 (May 9, 2013)

skfire said:


> Next I brought up the finite and conservation aspect of future wood burning..that didn't go well at all.  It is evident the media brain washing has worked well...if one mentions conservation they equate it with liberalism..._Conservatives practice conservation_ I retorted...Has English been taken out of the school curriculum along with civics????..I pretty much wasted my time....So there you have it.


 
Over at AS, the amount of cords burned per year is akin to bragging rights, ie: "Yep, burned _12 cords _this year-WOO HOO"


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## NE WOOD BURNER (May 9, 2013)

Well this lady now owns this E-classic at what ever she paid for it. I would hope someone close to her has knowledge of how to achieve the most of this unit.

I almost pulled the trigger on this unit but was not able to justify in my mind with what I have seen for life expectancy of these units. Of the 5 I saw in operation none where burning dry wood. So now I wonder if the life expectancy would not be longer if dry wood was used. So in that regard I think its hard to compare.
As for a dollar comparison I got a quote for a Froling with storage no install for the same money. but I will need to build a building for it and pay taxes on the building.
If I build a building then I get carried away and lokk at the Garn or switzer.
I still believe an indoor gasser set up like an e-classic for outside would be a great seller. The key is to offer storage options with it.


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## mikefrommaine (May 9, 2013)

NE WOOD BURNER said:


> I still believe an indoor gasser set up like an e-classic for outside would be a great seller. The key is to offer storage options with it.


Econoburn used to or still does sell a unit just like you describe.


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## NE WOOD BURNER (May 9, 2013)

"Econoburn used to or still does sell a unit just like you describe"


Yes, but they are not white tagged for NH. unless that has changed


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## mikefrommaine (May 9, 2013)

NE WOOD BURNER said:


> "Econoburn used to or still does sell a unit just like you describe"
> 
> 
> Yes, but they are not white tagged for NH. unless that has changed


That's government for you. You can install the boiler inside a shed but not if it comes in it's own shed?  Even though it's far more efficient then a white tagged CB!


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## NE WOOD BURNER (May 9, 2013)

You see my issue. I have looked at this very hard. I can always hook up in my basement but if Im still carrying wood inside and downstairs. I may as well keep my wood stoves and save the money.
The econoburn is about $12,500 with out additional storage. it is a closed system looks interesting, but I posted a while back and didnt get many users to reply.
If i recall the indoor was $2000 cheaper.


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## leon (May 9, 2013)

BoilerBob said:


> Lady down the road was all excited her boiler was coming soon. I seen the price on her brochure. I almost had a heart attack. Salesman told her a few blocks a day would heat her house, barn and swimming pool all winter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## leon (May 9, 2013)

I am do glad when I visit the forum here in that I can mention what I
have been trying to explain to many others on "The Other Forum".

I have described in great detail the advantages of using firebrick as
method of storing thermal energy and as a source of heat energy
radaiting back into the firebox to keep the fire at higher temperature
and as result reduce smoke.

In my case I have locally made wood and coal boiler that has shaker grates
which I filled half full of firebrick after I installed a12 by 12 by 2 inch piece of
channel iron for the firebrick to rest on. Granted I lost half the volume of the
firebox which originally was 12 by 24 by 36 inches in size and the flue is a
rear exiting 8 inch diameter. The problem is the chimney as it is an 8 by 12 
clay liner chimney that barely clears the roof line(yes I will be correcting that
this summer with a 24 inch extension. The other thorn in the side is the fact
that the oil boiler and the wood and coal boiler share the same chimney-
Waiting on my brothers plumber to bring a used(good condition) power exhauster
to install it for me.    

SO I have been explaining how thermal mass can benefit the end user because the
water is a source of heat energy that can be used and hot water takes less time to
bring up to temperature to no avail as every one has lots of wood-I do not and log loads
are extinct around here).

I belabored the point that if you have 2,000 thousand gallons of storage you have
2,000 gallons of thermal mass to take advantage of when heating a residence.
I also explained that the return water has useable heat energy that can aid in reducing
the energy required to bring the water back up to temperature as well.

I also went to great lengths explaining how filling these monstrocities half full or more with
firebrick as well as buring small splits permits the end user to get the most heat out of a
firewood stash. I also explained that several of the S members have large gallon capacities
of thermal storage inclusing one member that fills his boiler(old RR tank car) once a week with a skid steer
loader and has a clean burn because he heats several buildings with it.

After explaining this to a poster that was examining the purchase of one of these things
another poster stated to be "wary of Leon and Hearth.com and the OWB naysayers there" 



I also explained to the person examining these bloody things that the builders of these things
have no desire to add thermal storage such as firebrick or more water capacity because it
would cost them more money to build them and reduce thier profit.

The CB design is inherently inefficient becuase of the rectangular firebox design, the lack of water
capacity to permit the boiler to burn a continous hot fire to reduce smoke to a minimum as well as
lacking shaker grates. The other negative is the design of the fireboxes interior above the hearth which
increases the area of fire box exposed to the hearth but will eventually suffer metal fatigue from 
"Cavitation Corrosion" WHICH are the two dirty worfs you will never here them say becuase they
do not use boiler plate!!


----------



## maple1 (May 9, 2013)

I don't think rectangular fire boxes & lack of shaker grates detract from efficiency?

Also not sure firebrick stores a lot of energy - it is more of an insulator. Although it no doubt gets hot next to a hot fire.


----------



## maple1 (May 9, 2013)

arbutus said:


> The EKO is on the low side.
> What others cost less than $6000? I'm shopping right now!
> 
> 
> ...


 
There is a new Econoburn for sale right now in the For Sale section. $6500.


----------



## Badfish740 (May 9, 2013)

leon said:


> I am do glad when I visit the forum here in that I can mention what I have been trying to explain to many others on "The Other Forum"...After explaining this to a poster that was examining the purchase of one of these things another poster stated to be "wary of Leon and Hearth.com and the OWB naysayers there"


 
That's probably the nicest thing I've ever heard said about Hearth.com over there...    Usually posts about this site involve profanity and some reference to Obama supporters, sheeple, communists, and words questioning the collective sexual orientation of the members here


----------



## mikefrommaine (May 9, 2013)

Badfish740 said:


> That's probably the nicest thing I've ever heard said about Hearth.com over there...  Usually posts about this site involve profanity and some reference to Obama supporters, sheeple, communists, and words questioning the collective sexual orientation of the members here


Can't we all just get along?

Someone needs to schedule a Hearth and ArboristSite get together.


----------



## dogwood (May 9, 2013)

I don't know what kind of OWB owners some of you might be running into. The ones I've known from work readily shared their experience with their units, as I was interested in their experiences with wood-burning, and I've had the same response in kind. On the other hand I wasn't trying to say mine was better, They could draw their own conclusions. We were all trying to get off the oil/propane/natural gas bandwagon that was punishing us all financially. I could afford a newer more efficient technology, that's all. Not everyone can afford a gasifier, at least where I live. After shopping around, I guesstimate the average OWB available locally goes for considerably less than the average gasser, which I had to order from New Hampshire.

Its not a competition, and people of course are going to be defensive over something they have put a lot of time and effort into. I bet nobody here would want to have some geothermal system owner blowing smoke in their faces. So lighten up. People who do something less well than you don't need a good bashing, and are hardly stupid. I'll wager that lady who got hosed on her CB Unit would have welcomed some varying suggestions from any of us rather than to have wasted her hard earned money due to slick salesmen or not knowing about better alternatives. I was looking at CB Units myself at first. I happened to learn a little more, mostly on this site. But I've never met a single person whose ever heard of Hearth.com. much less wood gasifiers, or done any research on-line on wood boilers. We should be spreading the word until lots of people know about this technology. Then it will deservedly take hold, and not be a niche product.

(And we can help Chris Hoskin, Mark from Ahona, the Cozy Heat guy, and the rest of the dealers become the multi-millionaires they deserve to be.)

By the way, if we need to tighten up any of those Arborsite people, please let me know.


Mike


----------



## mikefrommaine (May 9, 2013)

dogwood said:


> (And we can help Chris Hoskin, Mark from Ahona, the Cozy Heat guy, and the rest of the dealers become the multi-millionaires they deserve to be.)


Don't forget Patrick and Zennon!


----------



## leon (May 9, 2013)

Sorry about my typos-the letters are worn off the key board
and I am unable to use the edit funtion.

Central Boiler will never get involved with an indoor hydronic
boiler maker becuase of theire use of Stainless steel and
"thier" boiler design would not get any takers. I will post a
image of a Burnham boiler to show you all later


----------



## maple1 (May 9, 2013)

I'm still trying to get my head around the idea that an indoor gassifier + storage is so much more expensive than an OWB. That OWB quoted in the first post is around double the cost of my boiler & storage. What OWB can you get for $3500-4000?


----------



## BoilerMan (May 9, 2013)

I still think it's an unwillingness for people to recognize the fact that there are different ways to do something.  Some people are happy to have minimal processing and burn more wood, do I feel that way, no.  If they have access to lots of wood, I'm not too worried there is some type of wood-consuming mongering and the whole country will become like Hati, deforested desert.  Are we worried about some kind of ban on wood-burning due to the billowing smoke from OWBs, and that turning into us having to go back to oil?  We are set on our boilers and their efficiency, they are set on their lack of oil bills and are (usually) ok with burning copious amounts of wood (compaired to high efficiency users).  They think we are nuts and we think the same of them.  It's like alot of things in life, we need to try and see things from someone else's perspective, even if it goes against what we believe.  That way we can understand where they are comming from, and maybe we can show them why we believe what we believe.  And it is their right to have their own opinion, just as we do.  I like Fords, they like Chevys etc. 
It was said on the first page that we should have laws banning OWBs, that sounds like liberalism to me.  We can't ban all things that we don't like, offset laws, sure, don't choke your neighbor with woodsmoke, but banning no.  If I want to own 100 acres and live right in the middle and have an OWB and not bother anyone, _I should be free to do so._  That same thing should not happen in a subdivision or urban setting, that just makes everyone mad.  


Badfish740 said:


> That's probably the nicest thing I've ever heard said about Hearth.com over there...  Usually posts about this site involve profanity and some reference to Obama supporters, sheeple, communists, and words questioning the collective sexual orientation of the members here


If they are totally ignorant, then let them be.  I for one am about as conservitave as they come, trust me.  We need to be realistic, and I for one believe that if we can use domestically produced oil and and not import huge amounts of energy, we'd be much better off.  That means less gov't restriction on just about everything, and more conservitism to get there.  Being a good steward, and being stupid are two different things.  Coal isn't in the ground to leave there, and trees don't grow for us to hug.  The O voters hang out in the AshCan for some good political debate.  I do frequent there.

'Nough said, the soap box is free now..............

TS


----------



## chewy (May 9, 2013)

maple1 said:


> I'm still trying to get my head around the idea that an indoor gassifier + storage is so much more expensive than an OWB. That OWB quoted in the first post is around double the cost of my boiler & storage. What OWB can you get for $3500-4000?


I will sell you mine right now for $3500!


----------



## arbutus (May 9, 2013)

maple1 said:


> I'm still trying to get my head around the idea that an indoor gassifier + storage is so much more expensive than an OWB. That OWB quoted in the first post is around double the cost of my boiler & storage. What OWB can you get for $3500-4000?​


 

Hi Maple1,

Here's what I was thinking when I posted those numbers:
http://holland.craigslist.org/fod/3706476097.html
http://swmi.craigslist.org/hsd/3773077948.html
http://grandrapids.craigslist.org/for/3787094813.html

I made reference to my previous neighbors who installed OWBs and both had yards full of smoke.
I think they had the smaller model here and I want to say they were in the $5k range a few years ago when I asked about them.
http://hawkenenergy.com/products/furnaces/


----------



## heaterman (May 9, 2013)

arbutus said:


> The EKO is on the low side.
> What others cost less than $6000? I'm shopping right now!
> 
> 
> ...


 

I see there's a used Garn in the for sale section here........


----------



## leon (May 10, 2013)

AY Caramba Lucy, You mention Hawken and a lot of stuff comes up
on AS with a running battle with an honest owner that had problems and the
original Hawken folks apparently hired a provate investigator to
photograph and conduct surveilance of the the unhappy owner etc.  

I cannot upload the image of the Hurst and Burnham boilers here for
what ever reason.


These boilers have a three pass smoke tube system getting almost all the
heat out of a wood or coal fire.


One of the other things I mentioned on AS is how a fire ring could improve the efficiency
of "AN" OWB in that the fire is concentrated in a narrow circumference within
a firebox.  I illustrated this describing the old AVCO Lycoming boiler that was originally
in my home and how the oil burners fire was deflected and radiated upwards into the
water jacket.


----------



## mikefrommaine (May 10, 2013)

arbutus said:


> Hi Maple1,
> 
> Here's what I was thinking when I posted those numbers:
> http://holland.craigslist.org/fod/3706476097.html
> ...


Here is a pic of the beautiful wiring job you get for 3500


----------



## NE WOOD BURNER (May 10, 2013)

lets say you bought an OWB like the model this lady purchased.

$ aside

can you add additional storage and truely run it as a batch burner to storage without freeze protection?


----------



## arbutus (May 10, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> Here is a pic of the beautiful wiring job you get for 3500
> pic removed


 
That's terrible.  But the people buying those don't have a clue, and probably will be genuinely happy they don't have to pay as much of a propane bill, even if the neighbors have to breathe their smoke.


----------



## chewy (May 10, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> Here is a pic of the beautiful wiring job you get for 3500


Mike, how did you get a pic of the back of my free heat machine?


----------



## Coal Reaper (May 10, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> Here is a pic of the beautiful wiring job you get for 3500


 
Funny, i just got an email from them.
"You have been notified of this promotion due to your interest in our product.
 This promotion is limited to existing inventory and is based on unit purchased and paid for by May 31, 2013. "
$1000-2000 off certain units.  i requested some information on their products about a year and a half ago when i started researching.  just told them i want to be removed from their mailing list.  i too was once uneducated about woodburning...


----------



## velvetfoot (May 10, 2013)

I thought E-Classic was their gasifier line?


----------



## NE WOOD BURNER (May 10, 2013)

yes you are correct

E-classic = gasser
classic= non-gasser


----------



## Coal Reaper (May 10, 2013)

P&M ended up being the only one i was considering when i was trying to decide outdoor vs. indoor


----------



## chewy (May 10, 2013)

velvetfoot said:


> I thought E-Classic was their gasifier line?


It is, but it's not a batch burner.  Since it idles  theres questions weather or not its as efficient as burning a load full out to heat storage.

Erin


----------



## goosegunner (May 10, 2013)

Hey at least the squirrels will have a nice warm place to build their nest and chew on the wires!  Are there no codes that make that illegal to sell?  I bet you could show most 12 year olds how to wire and they would do a better job than that.  

gg



mikefrommaine said:


> Here is a pic of the beautiful wiring job you get for 3500


----------



## mikefrommaine (May 10, 2013)

goosegunner said:


> Hey at least the squirrels will have a nice warm place to build their nest and chew on the wires! Are there no codes that make that illegal to sell? I bet you could show most 12 year olds how to wire and they would do a better job than that.
> 
> gg


The sad thing is they used that pic to promote their product on CL.

http://holland.craigslist.org/fod/3706476097.html




chewy said:


> Mike, how did you get a pic of the back of my free heat machine?


 
I thought the free heat machine people knew enough about wiring to include a light bulb?


----------



## skfire (May 10, 2013)

dogwood said:


> I don't know what kind of OWB owners some of you might be running into. The ones I've known from work readily shared their experience with their units, as I was interested in their experiences with wood-burning, and I've had the same response in kind. On the other hand I wasn't trying to say mine was better, They could draw their own conclusions. We were all trying to get off the oil/propane/natural gas bandwagon that was punishing us all financially. I could afford a newer more efficient technology, that's all. Not everyone can afford a gasifier, at least where I live. After shopping around, I guesstimate the average OWB available locally goes for considerably less than the average gasser, which I had to order from New Hampshire.
> 
> Its not a competition, and people of course are going to be defensive over something they have put a lot of time and effort into. I bet nobody here would want to have some geothermal system owner blowing smoke in their faces. So lighten up. People who do something less well than you don't need a good bashing, and are hardly stupid. I'll wager that lady who got hosed on her CB Unit would have welcomed some varying suggestions from any of us rather than to have wasted her hard earned money due to slick salesmen or not knowing about better alternatives. I was looking at CB Units myself at first.
> Mike


 

Maybe I gave you the wrong impression and if I offended, apologies, but here is what I really think:

a) I did not make a blanket statement on all OWBs..only the ones I have personal experience with and their rolling their eyes and making un-educated statements regarding wood based fuel boilers and claiming their OWBs are the cat's meow.(as per my reference in my post).

b) It is not a competition, but it affecting everyone now and will do more so in in the future, so I raise the point of education, awareness and future planning.

c) I welcome geothermal or any other type of system that would factually challenge my way of living and maybe improve the overall scope of energy consumption and conservation in our country. But there is no need to "lighten up", since there never as any weight on my point of view other than facts and where the lack of facts was displayed I pointed it out, maybe too directly? I think we are past the point of tact in this nation...we need some truth telling and calling out.

Thank you for the opportunity to diatribe and again apologies if I offended by raising the sociopolitical aspects of this, but I value the opinions in this forum and the best results rise from high temperature distillation...

Scott


----------



## Coal Reaper (May 10, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> The sad thing is they used that pic to promote their product on CL.
> 
> http://holland.craigslist.org/fod/3706476097.html


WOW.  LET ME TELL YAH, THE DIAMOND PLATE ROOF AND ACCENTS ALMOST HAD ME SOLD...


----------



## NE WOOD BURNER (May 10, 2013)

The idea of an affordable outdoor boiler has been widely accepted by the market. The price of the non-gasser OWB was affordable for most wanting a central wood heating system. That market is still there but short term economics alone is what is limiting the gasser OWB/IWB to obtain the lion's share of the market. regardless of the brand it is a substantial investment in both time and money. of course laws have excluded some who just can't lay out the cash for a system and obtain the benifit from a longer payback time.
heating to storage is a new concept for many including myself. my earlier question regarding using an OWB to batch burn and heat to storage,was geared toward possibly introducing the idea to existing users and adapt existing boilers. though it may not be the most efficient system, I would think wood consumption will be reduced. and the smoke would be reduced allowing both types of boilers to coexist. If its possible to run an OWB as a batch burner to storage, I feel It would be a win win for both the OWB and IWB industry.
IMHO


----------



## skfire (May 10, 2013)

BoilerMan said:


> I still think it's an unwillingness for people to recognize the fact that there are different ways to do something. Some people are happy to have minimal processing and burn more wood, do I feel that way, no. If they have access to lots of wood, I'm not too worried there is some type of wood-consuming mongering and the whole country will become like Hati, deforested desert. Are we worried about some kind of ban on wood-burning due to the billowing smoke from OWBs, and that turning into us having to go back to oil? We are set on our boilers and their efficiency, they are set on their lack of oil bills and are (usually) ok with burning copious amounts of wood (compaired to high efficiency users). They think we are nuts and we think the same of them. It's like alot of things in life, we need to try and see things from someone else's perspective, even if it goes against what we believe. That way we can understand where they are comming from, and maybe we can show them why we believe what we believe. And it is their right to have their own opinion, just as we do. I like Fords, they like Chevys etc.
> It was said on the first page that we should have laws banning OWBs, that sounds like liberalism to me. We can't ban all things that we don't like, offset laws, sure, don't choke your neighbor with woodsmoke, but banning no. If I want to own 100 acres and live right in the middle and have an OWB and not bother anyone, _I should be free to do so._ That same thing should not happen in a subdivision or urban setting, that just makes everyone mad.
> 
> If they are totally ignorant, then let them be. I for one am about as conservitave as they come, trust me. We need to be realistic, and I for one believe that if we can use domestically produced oil and and not import huge amounts of energy, we'd be much better off. That means less gov't restriction on just about everything, and more conservitism to get there. Being a good steward, and being stupid are two different things. Coal isn't in the ground to leave there, and trees don't grow for us to hug. The O voters hang out in the AshCan for some good political debate. I do frequent there.
> ...


 

I agree with most of your viewpoints, and myself being a very, very conservative person, I would like to point out some things you touched upon, such as:

a) Absolute freedom in choice of burning whatever quantities of wood, sure why not, but in Europe they cleared out their forests and were forced to re think consumption, conservation and efficiency. Not smart to not heed history's lessons and mistakes by others.
On same point , I do not want regulation regarding choices, so educating and making the proper choices eliminates the"legislative control" in the decision making..sort of pre-emptive control of our lives and not having "choices"forced upon us based on "bad/uneducated decision making" caused legislation.
Again I advocate EDUCATION , CIVICS & PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY and NOT LAWS or FORCED LEGISLATION, but if we think this happens by just simple freedom of choice...we have forgotten history;s lessons..WITH FREEDOM COMES RESPONSIBILITY and FREEDOM IS NOT FREE.


b) Ignorance should not be left alone, I greatly disagree with that viewpoint. Ignorance breeds malignancy and becomes gravely damaging, that is why it is propagated by the controlling parties...they called them the Dark ages for a reason..Our Founding Fathers have written scores on this point alone and build a country on the basis of knowledge based decision making. Hell they almost hanged for it.. History's abound with tragedies bred by ignorance...let them them eat cake and all.
Again, not by legislation, but by peer review, socioeconomic pressure and self exemplification in choices.


c)domestic energy in oil and gas...very dangerous topic. Tremendous amounts of misinformation and media driven "fact-spewing", all based on Energy company agendas, written by their PR sectors and backed by millions of dollars paid to mouthpieces and "in house scientists".
Domestic energy access does not equal patriotism..let's be careful. Always follow the money.
Too deep to get into here, but there is plenty of evidence, research, on actual amounts of energy, profit making vs feasibility curves and studies. But is way off topic.
Only relevant point is conservation and availability of energy, with our kids, grand kids and beyond in mind, not just us and now. ..and I am NOT for not using our Oil or Gas, I am for "how" and by "who profits or decides for and from our rights" and with what consequences to our future.
*Next step they are trying to implement is GRANTING the right of eminent domain to energy companies on the basis of "public utility and good" premise..let's see how we' d like that..see such as:*_http://marcellusdrilling.com/2011/0...line-company-giving-it-eminent-domain-powers/_
if we are for Domestic usage of fossil fuels do we all support that? I for one will make a stand on my ground regardless..but ignorance and false data based legislation will bring that sooner or later..
Btw my father was a petrochemical and marine engineer that worked for Esso and most of the other 7 sisters for over 40 years. Please do not assume me to be a liberal, tree hugging uneducated person on the subject.
I have been on tankers with him transporting Arabian oil up the Miss. river to dump back into the ground in our depleted strategic reserves and have done plenty of research regarding the extraction/transportation/distribution/point of sale profits mechanisms of the energy trade. It's a commodity being sold in the international market to the highest bidder and domestic/patriotic facets have absolutely no bearing in it, other than advertising and policy creation towards the public. Maybe if the American people were more aware of who and from what country makes the most profits out of our domestic energy , we may have some awakenings.

d) I like what you said about being a good steward, but being stupid is judged by what we leave in our wake based on our decision making criteria. Regarding coal and trees, they serve other purposes than just energy consumption vectors, so let us consider that as well. As far tree hugging...I am for your original point....the right to their opinion, but through education, myself, I would just rather hug a warm something and hold a cool brewed beverage afterwards.

Thank you for the great points and opportunity for the discussion boiler man.

Scott


----------



## chewy (May 10, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> The sad thing is they used that pic to promote their product on CL.
> 
> http://holland.craigslist.org/fod/3706476097.html
> 
> ...



Yes, upon further inspection this is not the highly notable "free heat machine".  It clearly does not have a light bulb.  It's the little things that seperate the "free heat machine"!

Erin


----------



## heaterman (May 10, 2013)

I'm guessing that the "free heat machine" is the one I heard a salesman describe as having non conductive steel used in the legs it stands on............ Honest to Pete, I heard him say that.


----------



## mikefrommaine (May 10, 2013)

heaterman said:


> I'm guessing that the "free heat machine" is the one I heard a salesman describe as having non conductive steel used in the legs it stands on............ Honest to Pete, I heard him say that.


Don't be a hater


----------



## chewy (May 10, 2013)

heaterman said:


> I'm guessing that the "free heat machine" is the one I heard a salesman describe as having non conductive steel used in the legs it stands on............ Honest to Pete, I heard him say that.


This is what I'm talking about.  It's the little things that add up.  "Free heat machine" didn't invent fire, they just improved it.  You definitely don't want to loose all of your heat down through the legs.  It never made it to production, but they actually designed the legs to have a water jacket around them to draw what little heat transferred there.  Definitely ahead of their time.  

"Free heat machine" A different kind of gasification.

Erin


----------



## Chris Hoskin (May 10, 2013)

Wow!  What a great discussion, thanks all!  I'll have to re-read the thread a couple more times, there is a lot to digest here.  In the meantime, have a great weekend.  Chris.


----------



## heaterman (May 10, 2013)

chewy said:


> It is, but it's not a batch burner. Since it idles theres questions weather or not its as efficient as burning a load full out to heat storage.
> 
> Erin


 
Actually there is no question about it. Smoldering in a gasser is the same as smoldering in an OWB. To match the combustion efficiency of a batch burn boiler, one would have to remove and extinguish the fuel each time the aquastat satisfied, then reload when you needed more heat. There's a reason the Euro countries give no tax incentives unless storage is a part of the installation.


----------



## dogwood (May 11, 2013)

Scott (skfire), didn't mean to offend you either.  I was defending friends and co-workers, all good hard working country folk, who are really proud of their OWB's getting them out from under the oil and propane companies. There's a lot of interest from people from all walks of life in alternative energy nowadays. Its an interest shared by rednecks and tree-huggers alike. And these individuals are doing something about it which I admire. 

Mike


----------



## skfire (May 11, 2013)

dogwood said:


> Scott (skfire), didn't mean to offend you either.  I was defending friends and co-workers, all good hard working country folk, who are really proud of their OWB's getting them out from under the oil and propane companies. There's a lot of interest from people from all walks of life in alternative energy nowadays. Its an interest shared by rednecks and tree-huggers alike. And these individuals are doing something about it which I admire.
> 
> Mike



Sounds good Mike, maybe people are starting to make a change in the right direction!!
Up here things are not as you have experienced, but I can only hope for improvement.
Thank you Mike
Scott


----------



## mikefrommaine (May 12, 2013)

Here is some priceless advice being offered on that other forum regarding OWB sizing.



			
				Arbonaut;4319852 said:
			
		

> Definitely get stainless, water-cooled door and no legs. Heatmor is probably the best. I agree that you should get the next size bigger than you think you need. 200,000 will do most homes. If you heat the pool, get twice that.


 
http://www.arboristsite.com/firewood-heating-wood-burning-equipment/236072.htm


----------



## heaterman (May 12, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> Here is some priceless advice being offered on that other forum regarding OWB sizing.


 
It's probably a good thing I don't visit that site......could get ugly.......


----------



## BoilerMan (May 12, 2013)

Scott, I have to admit I was tired and the rant was a bit unsupported.  By ignorance, I meant over at AS and their name calling, I guess I'm used to that in my in-laws being farmers and "burned wood all their lives" mentality, literally buckets of creosote removed from their chimneys monthly.....  I'm for voluntary education as well, but the classes would be ill-attended I'd think, at least around here.  The "burned all my life" mentality again.  I read this thread last night with my wife's Kindle so wasn't going to reply with that.  I've been pondering some of your points today as I cleaned my boiler (rainey day project) between Mother's day events.  Europe and the US have much different landscapes and trees as well.  I was also thinking that is everyone stopped burning oil, NG, LP, or coal, and we all burned wood we would have some serious deforestation issues.  If we all burned one source of fuel for all out needs we'd have some serious shortage issues, economics and efficiency such as with OWB and other seemingly overpriced things that I have no way to quantify why one would buy such a thing.  It is interesting how all of this plays into the human psyche and the thought of Mike's post on OWB sizing, even worse!  Ah well interesting thread indeed!  I truly love these type of threads and the different perspectives, to get a balanced arguement we need.....dare I say...... some OWB fans to chime in.........   waiting for lightning strike...........

TS


----------



## Frozen Canuck (May 12, 2013)

BoilerMan said:


> we need.....dare I say...... some *OWB fans* to chime in......... waiting for lightning strike...........
> 
> 
> TS


 
Don't think anything like that even exists after season 3. I know after I used 22 cord the first season & 25 the second....well the last word you could use to describe me was "fan". I am sooooo glad that "thing" is just sitting in the yard now catching dust. They do make sort of an interesting art deco motif for north america though. Scattered throughout farm country like old thrashing machines.The thrashing machine however performed as advertised, these "things" not even close.


----------



## leon (May 12, 2013)

heaterman said:


> It's probably a good thing I don't visit that site......could get ugly.......


 

Hey Heaterman,

I have been responding to the very thread we are discussing on AS.
I enjoy explaining why they dont work very well for sure, as well as
explaining how a lot of firebrick makes great thermal mass to the deaf ears
on AS and (insert blasphemy here)how coal will heat a large herd of buildings
with less work.


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## heaterman (May 13, 2013)

leon said:


> Hey Heaterman,
> 
> I have been responding to the very thread we are discussing on AS.
> I enjoy explaining why they dont work very well for sure, as well as
> ...


 

Got a link?


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## arbutus (May 13, 2013)

BoilerMan,

I'll give you my opinion, based totally on observation and not at all on experience.

OWB vs Gasser:
Initial cost:  Entry level OWB is less than an entry level Gasser
Wood consumption:  Gasser uses half? the wood of an OWB to produce the same net heat
Ongoing maintenance:  OWB (no tubes to clean)
Lifespan: ??? Probably gasser

Particlulate emissions are something few buying OWBs truly care about.
A yard full of smoke is an annoyance to most, but it beats paying for propane or oil, which is why most are burning wood.


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## leon (May 13, 2013)

heaterman said:


> Got a link?


 
hope this works:

www.arboristsite.com/firewood-heating-wood-burning-equipment/236072-3htm#post4320369


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## leon (May 13, 2013)

heaterman said:


> Got a link?


 
hope this works:

www.arboristsite.com/firewood-heating-wood-burning-equipment/236072-3htm#post4320369


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## heaterman (May 13, 2013)

arbutus said:


> BoilerMan,
> 
> I'll give you my opinion, based totally on observation and not at all on experience.
> 
> ...


 

True, a yard full of smoke is just an annoyance .......until their kids develop asthma or they get chronic bronchitis from it.
One study I read (NYSERDA?) equated the emission from a residential OWB to having something like 400 packs of cigarettes smoked in your yard every day.  Even when they aren't smoking to beat the band they are still pounding out a lot of particulates and most people don't understand that. Smoke is just the visible part of emissions.


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## heaterman (May 13, 2013)

leon said:


> hope this works:
> 
> www.arboristsite.com/firewood-heating-wood-burning-equipment/236072-3htm#post4320369


 

Nope....my 'puter says page not found


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## skfire (May 13, 2013)

BoilerMan said:


> Scott, I have to admit I was tired and the rant was a bit unsupported. By ignorance, I meant over at AS and their name calling, I guess I'm used to that in my in-laws being farmers and "burned wood all their lives" mentality, literally buckets of creosote removed from their chimneys monthly..... I'm for voluntary education as well, but the classes would be ill-attended I'd think, at least around here. The "burned all my life" mentality again. I read this thread last night with my wife's Kindle so wasn't going to reply with that. I've been pondering some of your points today as I cleaned my boiler (rainey day project) between Mother's day events. Europe and the US have much different landscapes and trees as well. I was also thinking that is everyone stopped burning oil, NG, LP, or coal, and we all burned wood we would have some serious deforestation issues. If we all burned one source of fuel for all out needs we'd have some serious shortage issues, economics and efficiency such as with OWB and other seemingly overpriced things that I have no way to quantify why one would buy such a thing. It is interesting how all of this plays into the human psyche and the thought of Mike's post on OWB sizing, even worse! Ah well interesting thread indeed! I truly love these type of threads and the different perspectives, to get a balanced arguement we need.....dare I say...... some OWB fans to chime in......... waiting for lightning strike...........
> 
> TS


 
If we all burned wood, it would be over very quick, especially with most accepted burning methods.
I think our energy situation is dangerous at best, especially the lack of any infrastructure geared to the next fuel source..oil and gas will not be around for a long time. This last push is for milking the heck out of all its worth..and see below regarding "domestic energy"...money above all...where is their patriotic spirit?
http://m.apnews.mobi/ap/db_6776/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=7vljO50S
Thank you for the great points Boiler Man


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## arbutus (May 13, 2013)

heaterman said:


> True, a yard full of smoke is just an annoyance .......until their kids develop asthma or they get chronic bronchitis from it. One study I read (NYSERDA?) equated the emission from a residential OWB to having something like 400 packs of cigarettes smoked in your yard every day. Even when they aren't smoking to beat the band they are still pounding out a lot of particulates and most people don't understand that. Smoke is just the visible part of emissions.​


 

How does an EPA tagged OWB and a gasifier that cycles, such as a Wood Gun, or anything with out storage, compare in terms of particulates?

Having a wood heatsource in a detached building is a big plus for me, because I thought both of our wood stoves did a good job of spewing ash indoors at our previous house (old smoke dragon and 2007 Pacific Energy). 

I'll also add that I happily use a burn barrel, when the wind is right, but Michigan was thinking about clamping down on those due to particulates a couple years ago.


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## leon (May 13, 2013)

Heaterman,

I am sorry about that but I copied it exactly :^(,

Anyway you can go to the AS site and it is on the
firewood and wood heating pages two or three pages down.


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## leon (May 13, 2013)

The particulates issue us another beast i have been trying to
eliminate describing how a water scrubber would work eliminating the
unburned particulates from exiting a stack using a water trap exactly like
the ones used for diesel exhaust gas scrubbers where in the exhaust would
be piped into a water bath then the only thing exiting an exhaust pipe
would be steam.

You would use more water of course but the stack exhaust would be
steam and only steam.

The basin would be made of mild steel and would be water tight of course
and it would have to be cleanable with a gasketed lid after the water was drained to
waste.

I do not see this happening though as it would cost more to make  a OWB BUT the benefits of
simple steam as an exhaust plume would outweigh the negatives in dealing with particulates
as there would be none. As always hope springs eternal.


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## mikefrommaine (May 13, 2013)

heaterman said:


> Nope....my 'puter says page not found


 
Try this

http://www.arboristsite.com/firewood-heating-wood-burning-equipment/236072.htm


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## heaterman (May 13, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> Try this
> 
> http://www.arboristsite.com/firewood-heating-wood-burning-equipment/236072.htm


 
Got it. Added a comment.

After reading through that thread I can see what the prevailing wisdom is there..........


EDIT:  Added another post there, we'll wait and see if I get flamed.


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## heaterman (May 13, 2013)

arbutus said:


> How does an EPA tagged OWB and a gasifier that cycles, such as a Wood Gun, or anything with out storage, compare in terms of particulates?
> 
> Having a wood heatsource in a detached building is a big plus for me, because I thought both of our wood stoves did a good job of spewing ash indoors at our previous house (old smoke dragon and 2007 Pacific Energy).
> 
> I'll also add that I happily use a burn barrel, when the wind is right, but Michigan was thinking about clamping down on those due to particulates a couple years ago.


 
Truth be known..........there's not a lot of difference in actual performance as far as the off or low demand idling is concerned. Lot's of manufacturers will tell you different but real world tests are proving otherwise. Even the high brow Euro models don't do all that well when cycled off and idled. Storage is key to burning clean and keeping things at max efficiency. Anyone telling you differently is just blowing smoke (pun intended)


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## mikefrommaine (May 13, 2013)

heaterman said:


> Added another post there, we'll wait and see if I get flamed.


 
They ignored my attempt to instigate.


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## maple1 (May 13, 2013)

You guys are bad. 

Some interesting reading though.


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## NE WOOD BURNER (May 14, 2013)

Chris Hoskin said:


> So why do people keep buying these things? It is my understanding the Central sells more boilers each year than all the high efficiency indoor equipment suppliers combined. What is the message that is resonating so strongly with homeowners? Obviously something I've thought a lot about, but I would really appreciate any feedback on this. Thank in advance. Chris


 
Chris,
The main thing is that attractive is that the unit is outside and near the wood storage.
A buyer ready to pull the trigger for this type of central heating can make one phone call in my area and have financing and the product delivery date with all neccessry accesories for install. Fairly easy install pad for boiler,lines to house, electric

Indoor requires much research(planning), more labor (can't do in one weekend)

Now if the indoor guys could put together for Example: 25' storage container with a properly sized indoor gasser with water storage plumbed and wired. educate the buyer on batch burning now You will have the market. providing you can put it all together within the price of the new gasser OWB. Two weekends and it can be installed. include 100' of thermopex or logstar and a heat exchanger.

My point is that after researching this site I like the indoor boilers the best for longevity and wood consumption. the problem that I have is; that I do all the leg work to come up with a system and all the prices are still at full retail for this setup plus It will take much longer to install.
Your products, product knowledge and installs are proven.

Scenario: 3000 s.f. cape including basement. FHA furnace 2x6 construction(1986) entrance to basement is a standard bulkhead with dormer and 30" access door and one flight of stairs. Propane hot water tank(40gal)
future barn to be 32 x40(2x6 walls 10 high cieling) radiant in floor.

Challenge for indoor guys: sell me on a complete stand alone indoor system for outdoors that I can install in 1-2 weekends.


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## leon (May 14, 2013)

If you have a shed or one car garage for this system its going to be easy

Harmon SF-360 wood and coal boiler 42 gallons with hot water coil.
8 by 8 lined chimney or round chimney pipe 2 feet above roof line of home.  

You could use the smaller SF-240 wood and coal boiler and save even more money

Air scoop with one automatic vent to vent air from system at the first storage tank.

Automatic air vents in the top of the 4 storage tanks. 

five boiler drains for the Boiler and storage tank.
four boiler drains to bleed air from top of storage tanks when filling system with cold water
prior to firing.

Backflow preventor for water feed loop from potable water supply to boiler inlet in home.

Water pressure regulator for water feed to boiler.

4 New Horizons storage tanks @ 490 gallons each 1960 gallons capacity
5 pop off valves- one on boiler and four on storage tanks mounted on top of  storage tanks
1 or 2 loops of X number of feet of 13.00 thermo Pex from garage/shed to home
for domestic hot water and hydronic heat OR simply avoid a domestic loop.

Install one pump inside the home to create a continuous heating loop from boiler to home
and back to boiler to prevent freeze damage

2 aquastats for overheat protection and hydronic heat service.


The use of schedule 80 threaded pipe fittings to connect to the storage tanks in
series using unions and pipe dope after the tanks are set on 6 by 6 PT beams to keep them above ground
and then to the $13 thermopex (only if you cannot solder like me).



OR you could simply use one steel stove pipe, an 8 inch flue tile,  one 490 gallon tank and the SF360 and see how that pony runs for the first season.


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## NE WOOD BURNER (May 14, 2013)

Leon,
That boiler is a non-gasser?


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## BoilerMan (May 14, 2013)

Leon, I had a New Yorker WC130, with shaker grates.  I wanted to have the option to burn coal, to say the least, I was not impressed on how the underfire air burned wood.  Coal yes, but it is really a coal boiler also rated for wood.  I operated it with storage and burned it hot and wide open.  Still smoked a considerable amount but let enough heat up the flue I had no creosote issues.  I ran the stack at 350-400F.  Having said that I now have a gasser on the same system with storage and although the cleaning is a bit more I save about 25% on wood, mind you I ran the NY as efficient as a water jacked box can possibly be run.  Neither of my systems idle.

TS


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## maple1 (May 14, 2013)

You can get a decent gassifying boiler for less than or not more than the cost of that Harman - pretty sure that one wouldn't be on my radar...


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## leon (May 14, 2013)

NE WOOD BURNER said:


> Leon,
> That boiler is a non-gasser?


 

Yes,

The Harmon hand fired wood and coal boilers are non gassers.

The combustion chamber they have is a very efficient design.

They offer a firebox reducer to permit the end user to have DHW 
during the off season as well.


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## BoilerMan (May 14, 2013)

Leon, I don't want to be a kill-joy here, but I welded in C channel into my NY for firebrick, Welded in a shelf for a vermiculite baffle so to keep the flue gasses in the tall firebox longer, and SS secondary air tubes, and I saw little wood reduction.  It was a sooty crampt job and really a waste of time looking back.  When you have only just underfire air, no matter how efficient your heat exchanger is, you still have unburned wood gas (smoke) escaping up the flue, and thats useable heat that _could have _made it to the water-jacket and done something useful.  This is why I bought a gasser.  Asside from the loop in the top of the firebox, the NY is the same thing with shaker grates as well.  There is no substitute for a fire-tubed HX, and the _only way _that will work is with complete conbustion before you extract the heat from the flue gasses.  I'm convinced that all wood-coal boilers are really coal boilers, that _you can also burn wood in._ 

TS


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## NE WOOD BURNER (May 15, 2013)

heaterman said:


> It's time for the wood burning community to face the real costs associated with doing things right.


 
This is an interesting statement.(no disagreement)

doing things right= batchburning to storage?

I strongly believe if a person already has a non epa wood stove or if they have a non epa OWB or an EPA rated OWB that doing things right would mean that they follow best burning practices. This is stressed by the gasser OWB dealers I spoke with. But many end users do not follow. or they get trapped without dry wood which seems to happen. here on this site it is recommend to get your wood first and let it dry(4-8cords). If you did that for a non epa OWB you would need to have basically 32 cords of wood ready for your first season. then maintain there after.
Burning to storage has a cost factor of installation if you want to buy all new. When I took my residential energy class years ago. The hope of the professor was that the cost of the storage would eventually come down with competition. I think it is now just starting to hit the point of competition or inguinity.
I have seen installs of OWB with additional storage but the additional storage was designed to keep the fire going and thus it added very little benifit of BTU's to house. If a home and shop are plumbed correctly with a thermal storage unit(TSU). I strongly believe that an OWB could be used as an appliance to heat the TSU. So in my mind a builder building Mcmansions would be a friend to the indoor boiler community if he where to suggest Thermal storage and radiant heating in the build. Then the home owner owner could buy what ever appliance they wanted. When the appliance is rendered inoperable then a sales opportunity exists to sell a shed and an IWB with little cost to implement.
So my point is: you never get 100% compliance but you can always do better. so trade/professional groups would be a great place to educate on batch burning to storage to start the ball rolling.


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## leon (May 15, 2013)

Whoopsie on my part Boilerman;

I forgot to mention that I have an overfire
draft/secondary air supply in my 32 year old Switzer coal and wood boiler


leon


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## leon (May 15, 2013)

maple1 said:


> You guys are bad.
> 
> Some interesting reading though.


 




NO, we are not bad, WE see the light through the haze of smoke others
have been spewing for years.

IF I could build the Lil Albert or Big Bossman designs modifying them slightly by
building a cylindrical firebox totally filled with firebrick and offer them for sale with
1,000 gallons additional storage, and a water trap for soot and a second induced draft, I would do it in a heart beat because all there would be for exhaust is steam and a bit of odor from the
creosote in the water trap.





Edited today by leon at 341 EST


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## pen (May 15, 2013)

No point in bashing other internet sites here.


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## heaterman (May 15, 2013)

pen said:


> No point in bashing other internet sites here.


 

Very true.
Lot's of things I would like to say not only at AS but here also.........but I don't because it would just kick the hornet nest so to speak.
Seems like our country as a whole is all about an us vs them mentality......maybe fostered by our politicians and media.....but it shouldn't be that way. We all have something to learn from one another and from what I have learned so far in this life, no one has all the answers by himself.

"If I have made friends of my enemies, have I not destroyed them?"
Abraham Lincoln


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## BoilerMan (May 15, 2013)

leon said:


> NO, we are not bad, WE see the light through the haze of smoke others
> have been spewing for years.
> 
> IF I could build the Lil Albert or Big Bossman designs modifying them slightly by
> ...


 
Why not just have a Garn and loose the water trap and gain all the efficiency.  Open system for all those scared of pressureized hot water too.

TS


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## leon (May 15, 2013)

BoilerMan said:


> Why not just have a Garn and loose the water trap and gain all the efficiency. Open system for all those scared of pressurized hot water too.
> 
> TS


 
Hello TS,



I burn coal too because I am so exposed to the winds so thats a big 
issue with my old one room school house that is so poorly insulated.


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## BoilerMan (May 16, 2013)

Oh, I was just saying because the design you listed is basically a Garn, but with a water trap.  Don't know if you can burn coal in a Garn.............

Re-side that old school house, and put at least 2" of blue board benieth the siding, or two layers 2" and some other thickness and stagger the seams and tape them all with Venture tape, the $$$$$ you'd save on even coal would pay for the project and keep you more comfortable too!

TS


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## NE WOOD BURNER (May 17, 2013)

PRICES ARE DROPPING!















*E-Classic 3200*
_Ignition Ready_
*US $16,065*  * MSRP ** 
  -$1,700  _ Heating Up Rebate_
*$14,365*  


FINANCE NOW

Door
Firebox
Weight
Water Capacity   22.5"x28.5"
40"x48"x30"
3,050 lbs.
410 Gallons 


8-Hr Output Rating 
12-Hr Output Rating 

Manufacturer’s Rated
Heat Output Capacity   262,000 Btu/hr †
175,000 Btu/hr 


306,000 Btu/hr †


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## leon (May 17, 2013)

I could certainly try to buy a brood herd of four 490-gallon insulated storage tanks
from New Horizons for that kind of money and still afford to buy the schedule 80 pipe,
elbows, unions, 5 air vents, 5 boiler drain valves, pipe dope, 1 air scoop,
1 tank mounted temperature guage,  2 by 4 by 8 foot and 6 by 6 by 8 foot PT lumber to
make a floor and frame to set them on and still use my old boiler I think.


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## mikefrommaine (May 17, 2013)

leon said:


> I could certainly try to buy a brood herd of four 490-gallon insulated storage tanks
> from New Horizons for that kind of money and still afford to buy the schedule 80 pipe,
> elbows, unions, 5 air vents, 5 boiler drain valves, pipe dope, 1 air scoop,
> 1 tank mounted temperature guage,  2 by 4 by 8 foot and 6 by 6 by 8 foot PT lumber to
> make a floor and frame to set them on and still use my old boiler I think.


12k for 2000 gallons of storage doesn't seem cost effective to me.


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## leon (May 17, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> 12k for 2000 gallons of storage doesn't seem cost effective to me.


 


With the old wood and coal boiler paid for in 1986 I have no incentive to buy a
new one unless i have a water jacket failure.


The storage would be an improvement whereI would only need one fire a day on cold days and possibly two fires in very cold weather when are not tending a small hot burn during the day.


Even the Harmon SF240 would work well with storage if the water jacket failed on my old boiler.   


With oil going up I am using more coal and I will run out of wood this burning season most likely.


I can get a great fire with charcoal briquets in a pinch so thats certainly a plus for my place as it is very hard to heat some days with the wind coming from the west. If I lived in the bottom of the valley heating would be easier but I live at 1,140 feet above mean sea level.  


I will probably purchase a pellet burning basket to try this year and have a drop in bin made to let my coal burn with gravity feed without banking it this year too. I will probably have to remove a pile of firebrick to do that but I will leave the remainder of it and the channel iron used to keep it above the grates.


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## maple1 (May 17, 2013)

You could do 2000 gallons of storage using propane tanks for less than the cost of one of those tanks.


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