# Encore Non-Cat Overfires



## cmcramer

Glad to join your Forum: excellent discussions!      My one month old VC Encore non-cat connects via 6" flue collar to 6 feet of single wall stove pipe then 25+ feet of Metalbestos (sp.?) chimney - all straight up, ending slightly above my roof's peak. Never a low-draft problem in 20 years of woodstoves.  Encore's surface reaches 500-600 degrees, and it usually holds a very consistent temp. And yes, I hear the 'roar' or 'rumble' as I close the damper on a very hot fire. It gradually goes away....

...BUT, when I re-load a very hot stove that contains 3-4 inches of red hot coals, fill the firebox as full as I can with dry hardwoods,  allow that new wood to ignite for 6-8 minutes before closing the damper,  keep the primary air set at its lowest, the temp of the burn STILL increases to the point where part of the stove glows red! And I can't turn the thing down any lower - I just wait 20-40 minutes for the red glow to subside. OVER FIRE!

What part glows? I believe it's called the "Outer Back" - it's the part the flue collar bolts into. It's only thin sheet steel, but I assume the cast iron "Inner Back" is glowing, too....I just can't see it. An area about the height of the flue collar, and about one inch wide, on both sides of the flue collar, glows red. 

Called my Dealer, who contacted a VC/ CFM Field Rep.  Dealer faxed me a letter from CFM's Sr. Tech Advisor, John Davidson.  Mr. Davidson says that, yes, 'rear cast assemblies' on some Everburn stoves are glowing red.  but, "The glowing does not constitute any safety or operational issues."  (I'll post the full text of this letter if anyone is interested.)

Yes, Mr. Davidson, but doesn't glowing red constitute a WARRANTY issue? OVERFIRING VOIDS THE WARRANTY! Not to mention...what happens when that part warps _after _the VC 3-yr cast iron warranty expires?

Meanwhile, 2 questions, please: Is it pretty much accepted by the woodstove industry that glowing red cast iron results in shorter life expectancy of that cast iron? And, would the experienced folks here recommend I install a damper in my flue pipe so I can close it slightly and slow down this overfire condition?   

Thank you very much from Way Upstate New York - Lake Effect Snow Country!


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## BrotherBart

When my old stove pulled that trick, twice, it ended up in the back yard on blocks smoking ribs.


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## Roospike

Sounds like its about time VC addresses these issues.   
This statment is kinds in left feild *"rear cast assemblies’ on some Everburn stoves are glowing red.  but, The glowing does not constitute any safety or operational issues.”*

I agree with BrotherBarts statement. (Did you say smoking ribs , BUDDY !? )

Also, Welcome to the hearth forum cmcramer.

How long has your new *VC forge* been doing this cmcramer ? Is that the end of it from VC and your dealer or are they getting back to you with more help and information?


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## cmcramer

I've owned the stove one month - red glow has happened throughout that time. 

Dealer says that VC Field Rep will contact me - perhaps come see the stove - in 2 or 3 weeks. (...Show Me....)

I'm polishing my "Letter-of-Complaint" to VC/CFM.....and I have a form from New York State Attorney General's Consumer division. This situation - a properly operated woodstove that obviously violates its own warranty parameters - must be a legal issue. I'm keeping my powder dry...

A $1895 BBQ is a little expensive for my taste.


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## Roospike

cmcramer said:
			
		

> I've owned the stove one month - red glow has happened throughout that time.
> 
> Dealer says that VC Field Rep will contact me - perhaps come see the stove - in 2 or 3 weeks. (...Show Me....)
> 
> I'm polishing my "Letter-of-Complaint" to VC/CFM.....and I have a form from New York State Attorney General's Consumer division. This situation - a properly operated woodstove that obviously violates its own warranty parameters - must be a legal issue. I'm keeping my powder dry...
> 
> A $1895 BBQ is a little expensive for my taste.



Wow , I hear ya there. Its a pickle for sure. 
Also you would think with glowing parts of the stove would change the distance to combustibles , what ever the back of the stove is rated for it sure in the hell isn't rated for "glowing red". 

Be careful.


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## Gunner

cmcramer said:
			
		

> Glad to join your Forum: excellent discussions!      My one month old VC Encore non-cat connects via 6" flue collar to 6 feet of single wall stove pipe then 25+ feet of Metalbestos (sp.?) chimney - all straight up, ending slightly above my roof's peak. Never a low-draft problem in 20 years of woodstoves.  Encore's surface reaches 500-600 degrees, and it usually holds a very consistent temp. And yes, I hear the 'roar' or 'rumble' as I close the damper on a very hot fire. It gradually goes away....
> 
> ...BUT, when I re-load a very hot stove that contains 3-4 inches of red hot coals, fill the firebox as full as I can with dry hardwoods,  allow that new wood to ignite for 6-8 minutes before closing the damper,  keep the primary air set at its lowest, the temp of the burn STILL increases to the point where part of the stove glows red! And I can't turn the thing down any lower - I just wait 20-40 minutes for the red glow to subside. OVER FIRE!
> 
> What part glows? I believe it's called the "Outer Back" - it's the part the flue collar bolts into. It's only thin sheet steel, but I assume the cast iron "Inner Back" is glowing, too....I just can't see it. An area about the height of the flue collar, and about one inch wide, on both sides of the flue collar, glows red.
> 
> Called my Dealer, who contacted a VC/ CFM Field Rep.  Dealer faxed me a letter from CFM's Sr. Tech Advisor, John Davidson.  Mr. Davidson says that, yes, 'rear cast assemblies' on some Everburn stoves are glowing red.  but, "The glowing does not constitute any safety or operational issues."  (I'll post the full text of this letter if anyone is interested.)
> 
> Yes, Mr. Davidson, but doesn't glowing red constitute a WARRANTY issue? OVERFIRING VOIDS THE WARRANTY! Not to mention...what happens when that part warps _after _the VC 3-yr cast iron warranty expires?
> 
> Meanwhile, 2 questions, please: Is it pretty much accepted by the woodstove industry that glowing red cast iron results in shorter life expectancy of that cast iron? And, would the experienced folks here recommend I install a damper in my flue pipe so I can close it slightly and slow down this overfire condition?
> 
> Thank you very much from Way Upstate New York - Lake Effect Snow Country!





What are the surface temps when you are reloading ?

What are the surface temps when it is glowing?


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## Roospike

Vermont Castings Everburn chart. ( just as long as you stay under orange with your stove ) :grrr: 
http://www.marshallarts.co.za/temptable.htm


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## BrotherBart

Roospike said:
			
		

> Vermont Castings Everburn chart. ( just as long as you stay under orange with your stove ) :grrr:
> http://www.marshallarts.co.za/temptable.htm



And the paint vaporizes at 1223 degrees. Trust me on this. :coolsmirk:


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## cmcramer

Surface temp when re-loading = 500-600
Surface Temp when glowing = 600-650

These are approximate, taken with a new $12 thermometer. The surface stove temp is definitely below the 700+ range, that's for sure, when 'blood red' glowing happens. 

Now, this condition does not happen every time. It seems that I can avoid it by letting the stove burn down a little longer before refueling, or by adding only half a load of new wood. But I don't want to run my stove like that!


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## BrotherBart

Drop a fresh full load of wood into any stove at 500 and all hell is gonna break loose for a while. Do it with me or Spikes 3+ CF fire boxes and you can pick up the chimney cap down the block somewhere.


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## Roospike

Yep , with ours your get a hell of a lot of secondary combustion and heat @ 500° with a new load but shouldn't get any glowing parts. 

How about rounds , larger splits , hard wood (Oak ) & tighter packed loads. All this will help with longer burn times and controlling fires in the average stove.

Why are you re-loading the stove when its @ 500°-600° ( there are many answers but need to know why you do so. )


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## BrotherBart

I used to do it with the old stove sometimes but got tired of re-growing eyebrows.


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## Roospike

******************** :cheese: ***********************


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## Harley

Not to go too far off topic, but hope the discussion on this and other threads answers the question for Elk about the donor stove from VC.


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## TMonter

Readily overfiring can also be a sign of wood that is too dry. In discussing stove design with a Quadrafire engineer a few months back at the local stove shop, he told me that wood that is too dry can cause problems just like wood that is too wet.

Makes sense when you think about it.


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## cmcramer

> Why are you re-loading the stove when its @ 500°-600°



Well, I've been experimenting with different ways to use this new stove, trying to reproduce various real-life situations. Finding out how much heat I can get out of the thing _safely _is one possible situation. For example, if I need to leave the house to buy a few dozen snow shovels and the stove is running really hot but almost out of wood: it needs to be re-loaded for the long, cold afternoon.  How will it perform? 

I've also tried different ways to start it; different high air/low air settings; different amounts of time with damper open; trying to use low, slow fires; etc. I'm still learning what this stove does best, and not so best.

So, one way to run the stove is full-out, re-filling it when it still has a bed of 2-3 inches of red-hot coals and surface temp around 500-600. I guess I believe a $2000 stove ought to handle this assignment...but maybe I'm asking too much.

I'll certainly wait longer before I refuel the next few times and watch it closely.


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## Gunner

cmcramer said:
			
		

> Surface temp when re-loading = 500-600
> Surface Temp when glowing = 600-650
> 
> These are approximate, taken with a new $12 thermometer. The surface stove temp is definitely below the 700+ range, that's for sure, when 'blood red' glowing happens.
> 
> Now, this condition does not happen every time. It seems that I can avoid it by letting the stove burn down a little longer before refueling, or by adding only half a load of new wood. But I don't want to run my stove like that!





I too often do "hot reloads" and sometimes the temp hits 800 or more, and no glowing.  I do it cause it's darn cold out and I want to go to bed.  Don't intend to stay up and wait for the stove to cool or run a half load and then get up real early to fill again.


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## Roospike

cmcramer said:
			
		

> Why are you re-loading the stove when its @ 500°-600°
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I've been experimenting with different ways to use this new stove, trying to reproduce various real-life situations. Finding out how much heat I can get out of the thing _safely _is one possible situation. For example, if I need to leave the house to buy a few dozen snow shovels and the stove is running really hot but almost out of wood: it needs to be re-loaded for the long, cold afternoon. How will it perform?
> 
> I've also tried different ways to start it; different high air/low air settings; different amounts of time with damper open; trying to use low, slow fires; etc. I'm still learning what this stove does best, and not so best.
> 
> So, one way to run the stove is full-out, re-filling it when it still has a bed of 2-3 inches of red-hot coals and surface temp around 500-600. I guess I believe a $2000 stove ought to handle this assignment...but maybe I'm asking too much.
> 
> I'll certainly wait longer before I refuel the next few times and watch it closely.
Click to expand...


I can understand that and I'll do it too. I was just making sure your weren't loading this way because you couldn't get enough heat for your home in turn being stove too small. 

You have a lot of wood burning experience and for $2k i agree a stove should work correct.


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## elkimmeg

First of all, we assume you have a good seal at the flue collar/ connector pipe connection?
 At 500 degrees and 3 / 4" bed of hot glowing coals after reload it can be dampered down right away.  What is happening is the top door is allowing a lot of air exposure to the hot coals while reloading then the damper is left open a few minutes.   lot of heat and smoke building up all at once.  putting the secondary combustion chamber in over drive.

 No you should not be seeing glowing red.  I will be talking to VC tomorrow by phone and relay  your concerns I can tell you that when I damper down with the Cat encoore even if it let it get to 750 griddle top it starts settleing down and within 10 minutes its back to 600+- and stays there for a long long time.

 Another question I have to ask is your ash removal sequence?  when reloading do you even out the ash bed and stirr it up? Do you plie the to the rear around the everburn shoe?


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## cmcramer

> First of all, we assume you have a good seal at the flue collar/ connector pipe connection?



Just a crimped stovepipe jammed into the flu collar. I have read in another thread here the importance of sealing that connection better...so I'm off to the store today. Is furnace cement best? 



> Another question I have to ask is your ash removal sequence?  when reloading do you even out the ash bed and stirr it up? Do you plie the to the rear around the everburn shoe?



Till now, I just add new wood: I don't touch the hot coals/ash bed. But I certainly will if you think it will help. What is your recommended procedure?

Thanks for your interest!


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## mikeathens

Hmmmmmmm, CM.  alll of this sounds strangely familiar.  I am with you that you SHOULD be able to reload when you want to, no matter how many coals are in there.  Maybe a problem with the everburn?  I NEVER had these issues with my DW catalytic, even under the same conditions.  Keep on VC about this.  I gave up with my everburn dutchwest and traded it in on a Hearthstone after one full year.  I am already happier.  I never had any glowing parts, though.  I'm sure mine came close.  Seal up that flue collar and see if it quells the inferno.  I don't have one of these stoves any more, but i'm interested to see if it slows down the meltdown.  Hopefully, you'll have better luck than I did getting help from VC tech support...


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## TMonter

Why hasn't VC come back on this issue? It seems to me like this is a safety issue as well as a customer service issue and you would think they'd certainly be interested in fixing the problem.


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## Roospike

TMonter said:
			
		

> Why hasn't VC come back on this issue? It seems to me like this is a safety issue as well as a customer service issue and they'd certainly be *interested* in fixing the problem.



I think you hit the key wod there TMonter. There either *not interested* or dont know how to fix the problem.
With all the issues one would think after contacting VC and the dealers there would of been some kind of fix. 

What does it take for a product to become a safty reacall ? Anybody know ?


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## Highbeam

I own a Lopi, an old EPA Lopi, I will buy another stove (or three)in my lifetime. At this point, a VC is not in the running. For crying out loud... glowing red is not a safety concern? Is normal? No response from the company? many reputable forum members dumping stoves? No thanks.


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## cmcramer

FYI: here is the text of the letter from CFM/VC.



> November 3, 2006
> Subject: Glowing Rear Components
> 
> I am writing this letter in response to reports that parts of the rear cast assemblies on the Resolute Acclaim and some of our Everburn Woodstoves are glowing red. The hot flue gases do hit the sides here while turning to go vertical in the rear lower right and rear lower left of the stoves.  On a large load of wood it is normal for these areas to glow while the fire is at its peak (typically one or two hours during a burn cycle) and dull "blood red" glowing may extend upward toward the base of the flue collar.  These areas have been reinforced to deal with the excess temperatures that may occur here. The glowing does not constitute any safety or operational issue.
> 
> If further questions arise, please contact me.
> 
> Sincerely yours,
> CFM Corporation
> John Davidson
> Senior Technical Advisor


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## tradergordo

Highbeam said:
			
		

> I own a Lopi, an old EPA Lopi, I will buy another stove (or three)in my lifetime. At this point, a VC is not in the running. For crying out loud... glowing red is not a safety concern? Is normal? No response from the company? many reputable forum members dumping stoves? No thanks.



I wouldn't jump to conclusions.  Its possible the stove is defective although VC claims its normal (and if you look carefully at the design of the stove, which I have, you can see exactly what they describe in that letter - the blasting secondary combustion is basically directed into the cast iron in the rear corners of the stove).  

I do think the dealer should personally go check it out, but perhaps they don't think its their responsibility?  At any rate - we don't know who installed this stove or it if was done properly, we don't know what type of wood is being burned (could be excessively dry), we don't know if all gaskets and joints have been checked (doors easy to test - should be no gaps around flue connection, etc.).  We don't know if he has an excessive draft problem (he described a 31+ foot (flue+chimney) straight up exhaust - that sounds suspect to me!).  Finally, it isn't even real clear as to what exactly is glowing - he said something about thin sheet metal and not the cast iron?  Do you have pictures??  Has the paint come off? (can you even see glowing if the paint hasn't come off?)

As for "many reputable forum members dumping stoves" -- well the only guy so far that I've read about who got rid of his everburn stove was a new forum member with few posts, who had what seemed to me and others to be a problem with his install (specifically a gap around the flue) and even he didn't report any glowing parts.  I've been pretty happy with my everburn Dutchwest and have not had any overfiring problems or glowing parts.  Although I did initially have problems with the gasket around the front door - when the paint cured in the initial firings, the gasket stuck to the cast iron, and pulled out - this could actually be the cause of overfiring for some people - even if the gasket has not pulled away enough to make the problem obvious, it could be loose.  This is also something that can easily be checked and fixed.


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## Harley

cmcramer said:
			
		

> On a large load of wood it is normal for these areas to glow while the fire is at its peak (typically one or two hours during a burn cycle) and dull "blood red" glowing may extend upward toward the base of the flue collar. These areas have been reinforced to deal with the excess temperatures that may occur here. The glowing does not constitute any safety or operational issue.



Wow...

Ok, so assume you burn 24/7 for the most part and re-load every, say 6 hours? This thing is going to be glowing "blood red" for 4 to 8 hours per day. I'm not a metal guy, but I know some of you are..... doesn't this put a lot of stress on the metal?

"safety or operational issues".... strange he conveniently left out the word "warranty"


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## cmcramer

Seems to me that the letter from CFM/VC acknowledges a design/structural issue. Mr. Davidson doesn't say a thing about overly dry wood, gaps in the flue connection, missing gaskets, or any other installation errors.  He _does _state that the glowing parts have been "reinforced."  Sounds like they _engineered _the stove to glow red! Wow.

And by the way, the visible "Outer Back" piece of a my non-cat VC Encore is not cast iron. It appears to be made of a material similar to the lower heat shield....similar to single wall flue pipe. (Guess I don't know the proper terminology.)  It's just bolted onto the "Inner Back" cast iron piece with an air gap in between, and seems to function as a heat shield. And yes, the paint has come off the glowing "Outer Back" .

I asked earlier: if my straight 31' flue is too much draft, should I put a damper in it? CFM/VC tech support said they are asked that question often, and the answer is NO WAY.  

Don't understand why.


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## Andre B.

Sounds to me like the secondary burn chamber is not large enough to handle a full load of wood.

Make primary burning chamber smaller or increase the size of the secondary burn chamber so that at high burn rates the gases have a longer time in which to complete burning.
Also need a longer refractory lined transition area between the secondary chamber and the bare metal heat exchanger to more.
Sound like there is not much in the way of heat exchanger area between the secondary chamber and the stove pipe anyway. Kind of one of those "Here is your sign" moments, great granddad was smarter then we thought when he was writing all those engineering books.

Classic example of what happens when the marketing department gets to tell engineering what to do.  Make it hold more wood and make it smaller.
But you will never get the company to admit that.


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## tradergordo

cmcramer - not having seen the stove - it sure SOUNDS to me like you've got a SERIOUS defect there, in fact, I would not be surprised if you find it has cracked.  You need to remove that rear heat shield and examine the cast parts below.  I personally would not run the stove at all in this condition.  On the dutchwest, there are just two Phillips screws holding the rear shroud to the rear of the stove, its simple to remove.  Note that in the letter they sent, they did NOT describe what you have described here.  If in fact the stove has been damaged, it would be nice to still try to get to the bottom of WHY it was damaged, and again any of the possibilities for overfiring that I previously mentioned could have contributed.  As for putting dampers in super long flue/chimney setups - I don't really know about this, I too have seen other pros caution against this, although I'm not sure why - perhaps they have blockage risks?  Don't know.  But the 31 foot straight up exhaust is going to create an awful lot of draft...

Also - what is the gauge and brand of the single wall flue?  The other person who had problems I think was using cheap flue materials, and it sounds like you migth be also - I wonder if this could also be a factor?  (for example if there was a gap, either at installation, or a gap that may have formed in the high heat at the flue collar area - which in turn contributed to overfiring)




			
				cmcramer said:
			
		

> Seems to me that the letter from CFM/VC acknowledges a design/structural issue. Mr. Davidson doesn't say a thing about overly dry wood, gaps in the flue connection, missing gaskets, or any other installation errors.  He _does _state that the glowing parts have been "reinforced."  Sounds like they _engineered _the stove to glow red! Wow.
> 
> And by the way, the visible "Outer Back" piece of a my non-cat VC Encore is not cast iron. It appears to be made of a material similar to the lower heat shield....similar to single wall flue pipe. (Guess I don't know the proper terminology.)  It's just bolted onto the "Inner Back" cast iron piece with an air gap in between, and seems to function as a heat shield. And yes, the paint has come off the glowing "Outer Back" .
> 
> I asked earlier: if my straight 31' flue is too much draft, should I put a damper in it? CFM/VC tech support said they are asked that question often, and the answer is NO WAY.
> 
> Don't understand why.


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## mikeathens

Gordo,  relatively new poster, yes.  New woodburner, no.  I have been burning much longer than you and with more stoves than you.  You are more familiar with the everburn, but have you had experience with other stoves?  Comon.  Glowing red?  A combustor that takes an hour with each load to get working if lucky?  Combustor that, other times, gets going so hot that it can't be controlled, even closing primary air as much as you can?  You try a catalytic, or Herthstone, or other catalytic or non-cat with burn tubes, and you'll see what I'm talking about.  Sounds like maybe you have "ideal" conditions" for this stove?  You are probably one in 100 that does.  Who ever heard of putting too much wood in the stove?  When I'm ready for bed and I have a half burned load, I'm not going to sit up and babysit my stove for another 3 hours waiting for it to burn down further.  Maybe you have become accustomed to the inconsistencies and difficulties with the everburn, and don't know any other way?  Sorry if I'm wrong, but I believe you said this is your first stove you got this past fall?

This stove has issues for some people, and that's that.  Not operator error, probably not installation issues.  And trust me, I NEVER use cheap flue or other materials.  I checked EVERY gasket on mine, and only missed the connector pipe issue because I never learned otherwise from dealer, installer, or inspector. MAYBE the flue collar/connector pipe does make things heat up faster when not properly sealed, but fixing that did not make the stove run better or easier to operate.  I don't even know if it fixed anything - I was sick of the stove, got a Hearthstone Heritage with burn tubes and - whoa, wait a minute...why does it work perfect with my same installation?  I won't ever buy one of these "everburns" again.  To expensive for the hassles.  These are problems one should have with a $150 Lowes stove where you can say "you get what you pay for".  With everburn?  $1200?


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## cmcramer

> I would not be surprised if you find it has cracked.  You need to remove that rear heat shield and examine the cast parts below.  I personally would not run the stove at all in this condition.



Really? 4 weeks old; glowed red 8-10 times for 30-45 minutes each;  that will crack a $2000 VC cast iron woodstove? 



> Note that in the letter they sent, they did NOT describe what you have described here



Good point. Different location of glowing red.



Thanks, I'm listening hard!


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## elkimmeg

I earlier questioned this flue collar connection and he see a good amount of crimpimg, so does not have a good seal
 Every indentation of the crimping causes an air leak just above his area  that is glowing red %/8" has to be cut from the crimp edge and inserted to the rib above the crimping.
 before I seat it I run a bead of gasket cement on the lowed rib and inset the connector pipe to the rib  above the crimping. Danm who is inspecting these stoves, if 1/2" or more  crimping is exposed.  This is the first connection I inspect.  Before he takes legal action,  I would highly recomend that the stove be installed correctly and that means a correct flue collar to connector pipe.

 IT is common for manufactures to only make the stove collar 1" deep but crimping is 1.5" long.  No joint in the connector pipe should one see any crimpimg. It 's code and grounds to fail inspections.   Pipe manufactures do make a  stove collar started piece just to solve the shorter aoolaince flue collar depth... The last person that complained had the same setup and admits the stove calmed down once the laek was resolved.  So now one poster thkes that one poster as groungs for all to jumpship from the everburn technology? 

 Let me clue you in VC is noi the only stove manufacturer using the technology called Ever burn. I quess we all should jump ship on Jpotuls because a recent poster over fired his.

 then we all shouild jump ship on Pe summits because the guy in NY with a poor direct connection can't get heat For that matter please no one but a pellet stove some part might wear out or the owner does not scrape the burn pot. Don't buy Englanders because a recent poster can get his to run hot enough in a shared chimney burning wet wood.  Don't by A Dell or Sony or Apple computer because Somy made defective barreries Honda has a re call Toyota has one so don't buy any of those manufactures products.  Be glad you do not have a Jet Blue ticket


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## Highbeam

OK, I apologize, I will back off and only express my disappointment with the VC for engineering a stove where glowing red is "normal". I am no metallurgist either but I have a gut feeling that glowing red will have a detrimental effect on the stove.


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## tradergordo

cmcramer said:
			
		

> I would not be surprised if you find it has cracked.  You need to remove that rear heat shield and examine the cast parts below.  I personally would not run the stove at all in this condition.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really? 4 weeks old; glowed red 8-10 times for 30-45 minutes each;  that will crack a $2000 VC cast iron woodstove?
Click to expand...


Lets clarify this for everyone - what you described IS NOT the cast iron glowing at all!  What you described is essentially a HEAT SHIELD that is glowing red - that is BAD any way you slice it.  Anyone else ever seen a heat shield glowing red?  I don't know for sure that the cast iron is cracked, and even if it is, it could have been cracked anywhere from the factory floor, to transportation, or your dealer could have even dropped it, who the heck knows??  All I know is that it certainly does not sound safe to me.  

Mike - sorry I offended you, that was not my intent - my intent was simply to correct some statements made.  I appreciate hearing about your comparative experiences with different stoves, good to know.  Glad you are happy with the new stove too.  (I would love to know the nitty gritty details of how they compare, cost difference, how long it takes to archive efficient burn, etc.) 

Elk - yes, I also thought the problem with the flue connections (as described by both people with complaints) could have been the issue.  I also agree with you that people seemed awfully quick to "pile on" without knowing all the facts, based on a tiny sample.  If you go read the reviews in the hearth.com database on ANY model of stove, you will find someone (multiple people) complaining about something from literally every manufacturer.


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## Highbeam

Do any of the fine manufacturers of stoves recommend and recognize a stove glowing red as normal? There are installation errors and then there are engineering errors. An installation error is not the fault of the manufacturer though the difficulty in properly installing a stove can be partly the manufacturer's fault. Now a properly installed stove running red, and the manufacturer claiming that the red is normal is a whole different animal. Whether it is a cat stove, an EBT stove, or a non-cat stove, heck- even a pellet stove, I would not be happy if it was glowing red when properly installed and operated.


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## Shane

To me that letter from John Davidson reallly sums it up.  There is no way a sane man (which I'm sure John is) would take on that amount of liability if in fact there was something wrong with the stove glowing.  The original posters problem is that his heatshield is glowing, this is a totally different component (as has been pointed out) and should be immediately addressed by the dealer/installer.  And as Elk pointed out there are numerous stoves that utilize EBT.  To date I too have only seen one poster that has ditched his Everburn stove for another technology/brand. Nothing wrong with that, it's his choice.  I don't know what was going on with Mikes stove I couldn't figure it out.  With CMCramers stove the operating temps for stove top & pipe temp are right on the money for normal temps.  If your heat shield is glowing I highly recommend disassembling the combustion chamber and finding out what's what because something's amiss.  Back to the point though. Mike has ditched his stove.  This is one stove out of thousands made and sold over the past three years.  I don't think we're looking at faulty technology, otherwise there would be numerous complaints.  I have personally sold approximately 10 EBT stoves to date and not a bit of trouble with any of them.  As far as a recall VC or any other stove company is going ot jump in there and recall any defective products it produces. (Look at the Robertshaw recall or the Sequoia recall)  These are usually voluntary as no manufacturer wants to cause harm to the end user.  If one or two complaints about a product are enough to deter someone from buying something that's too bad.  Really a pissed off person is going to tell whoever will listen that product X sucks.  A happy consumer will usually say nothing and if they do it's usually because they were asked.  I usually stray from such arguments but I really see some mob mentality going on here.


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## TMonter

Elk, I don't think anyone here is faulting VC for having issues with this model of stove. However, their lack of a reasonable response really makes them look bad in the safety/customer service department. This isn't a case of one person having this issue with this particular stove, it's a situation of the problem of the stove glowing and VC saying it's normal operation.

Every stove manual I've read has said that glowing parts is a sign of overfiring. 

Even with a reinforced area of the stove, a glowing heat shield constitutes a significant safety risk and in reality if someone were to set fire to their house from this, VC would be liable.


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## elkimmeg

There is a couple of common things happening  with the everburn stove complaints. First one is the flue collar connection was not properly connected, allowing a huge area of leakage into the stoves. Second when asked if this flue collar connection passed the stove inspection, I  have yet to receive an answer. With out a permit , who installed the stoves?  So we are receiving complaints from posters that have  illegally installed stovves?  This being so and admitted that the flue collar connection  fails proper connection, one has to wonder who set these stoves up? 

 It is quite evident that no one read their manuals or they would have read the first page, the second page, and the 4th page, alerting then the need for code compliancce. So they come to the forum to post their displeasure with illegally installed stoves, where they never read the listing manual.

People are outraged VC has not responded to them, yet there is no disclosure where the selling dealer is involved? Folks the selling dealertakes care of these issues. Just like Harman does with pellet stoves. Harman does participate on this forum and issue warranty recalls.  I have yet to see one, PE does not , Lopi does not. So why are these people outraged with VC. 

VC has the exact arrangement with its dealers, that every stove manufacture has. If a stove is defective  the dealer is involved. He is the person that is susposed to take care of warranty issues.
 Yet there is no mention of dealer interaction posted?.

Part of the dealer installation is to make adjustment to the stove in the field. These new stoves are no longer  refactory cemented together, but all cast parts gasketed and bolted together. As part of the installation setup ,the bolts tightnees should be checked also the refractory shoe  should be checked and adjusted,  so that it is set correctly. Vital to the secondary burn process engineered to allow x amount of air into the secondary burn chamber.  IF it is not set properly or miss aligned,  you could be experiencing the conditions as described  Add the Flue collar leakage and you have a blast furnace in the back of the stove.  Has your dealer confirmed the bolt tightness and the shoe is set correctly? and flue collar joint set correcctly? 

I have inspected at least a dozen everburn stoves, I have yet to hear one complaint.  I know the flue collar connection is correct or I would not pass the inspection... Then one has to ask, if they can't get the first connection right , then what else is not up to snuff?    Now we have posters wanting to diss the crap out of a manufacturer  because of posters with incorrect installs and installed illegally. Sounds about right?

 They even want a recall for  incorrectly illegally installed stoves.  Sounds about Right? Yet not one mentioned anything about dealer support?


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## TMonter

> Whith out a permit who installed the stoves?  So we are receiving complaints from posters that have illegally installed stovves?



Not all places require a permit to install stoves Elk. Here in North Idaho, it's all driven by fire codes, UL requirements and your homeowners insurance. If you're unsure of what you are doing you certainly should have it inspected.



> It is quite evident that none read their manuals or they would have read the first page the second page and the 4th page alerting then the need for code compliancce. So they come to the forum to post their displeasure with illegally installed stoves where they never read the listing manual.



Again you're assuming the stoves have been illegally installed when they may not have.



> People are outraged VC has not responded to them yet there is no disclosure where the selling dealer is involved? Folks the selling dealertakes care of these issues. just like harman does with pellet stoves. Harman does participate on this forum and issue warranty recalls I have yet to see one PE does not Lopi does not so why are these people outraged with VC.



People are understandably upset as it does seem that this particular VC stove has some issues, but I wouldn't say they are outraged.


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## Harley

Even though I posted some comments on the thread... now going back and re-reading all of the posts... there may be a little over-reaction from ALL sides.  I can see why this one is heating up the way it is.  The way I see it....  there's a few things going on here, and no-one really has the full picture yet as to what the full story is.

OK - lets assume it is a bad installation and air leakage is causing an over-fire condition and causing the glowing red parts on the stove.  Or lets make the assumption that the stove is not really being operated in a safe manner, causing the same described conditions.  The text of the posted VC response is (yes... taking some liberties here) "don't worry... the back of the stove glowing is OK"


Now - either way... I think something not good is going on.  On one hand we recently heard  VC might be looking at the postings here, and would possibly respond to them.  This thread seems to be one that they would really want to make an official response to, as it really is turning into an issue where their newest non-cat technology is being called into question from a safety standpoint.

We don't have a lot of details as far as actual pictures of the actual installation - but if VC is interested in what is said here, at least you would think they might say - "we've got people looking into this one, and trying to figure out the problem"

I'm not trying to bash either side - at this point we are all making a lot of assumptions it seems


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## TMonter

Can the user post some pictures of the install and give a good accounting of all the materials used? That may better help determine the problem. Pictures are worth 1000 words and the idea here is to help resolve the problem, not point fingers.


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## BrotherBart

elkimmeg said:
			
		

> I have inspected at least a dozen everburn stoves, I have yet to hear one complaint. I know the flue collar connection is correct or I would not pass the inspection... Then one has to ask, if they can't get the first connection right , then what else is not up to snuff? Now we have posters wanting to diss the crap out of a manufacturer because of posters with incorrect installs and installed illegally. Sounds about right?



Then why the hesitation to install the donor stove?


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## elkimmeg

All states have adopter the International codes Therfore all states are bound to enforce them. Insurance companies have no jurisdiction enforcing the International codes. and have no method of International code approval nor can they issue permits. They can do insurance inspections but that does not make them code compliant the only preson that can is the  Licenced International code inspector. Some towns can appoint the fire dept to handle inspections of wood stoves as NFPA211  falls within the fire dept codes. Since NFPA211 is not a reconised national code the building depts have to defere wood stove inspections to the fire dept. if they so desire. In some towns this arrangement works well. The listing its self is non compliant till it has been approved buy Ahj.  Not one complaining poster has admitted to obtaininga permit or even admitted to asking for one. Code wise without a permit there should be no stove installed to question its opperation.  EVery manufacture has to alert the owner and installer code compliance is mandatory therfore permits and sucessfull inspections are required, before that stove can be fired.

Don't believe than you must be another that has not read your manual. and you want to argue the point? Now I do realize that not all inspectors make the best effort. and that they can't be bothered. Maybe all town or counties do not have the manpower for proper inspection coverage. I understand that but I have yet to hear these complainer state that. I know what is required in the state of Ny where this complainer lives and permits are required the othen complainer was from NY and the third one from MA and Iknow the codes in MA and his town is not a small rural tome I know his inspector he attended my seminar.   That accounts for the 3 most recent complainers

 Back to the stove with issues these secondary burn chambers are lined with the same insulation the  urns holding molten steel as it is transported over to the molds to be poured in.
  I'm not saying the stove could not be defective  gasket joints not bolted together tigh enough possibly damaged  insulation in the secondary burn chamber. The Everburn shoe not alighned or missing a gasket piece.  Where is the dealer in this? ccould it be the flue collar connection  soo poor toomuch air is being drawn into the secondary burn chamber causing it to over heat?

 I will be checking with VC tomorrow to validate the correspondence submitted here.  I find it odd t for a VC spokesman to admitt that it is common or ok to see glowing red something is wrong.

 Yet no dealer or  VC tech has examined the stove. Jack is the northeast distributor and he has no knowledge of this glowing red issue I find it odd that VC CFM would ever allow posting of such a letter or finding on a public forum.  Me I would want to confirm  these findings. Which I will tomorrow. If it is true, then I not buying its ok  there is a design flaw and I will question the fix.
 I will not support a company that admits to a design flaw and does nothing about it. I will demand it be addressed.  If true ,my building inspections Dept comes under the jusisdiction of the dept of public safety in MA.  I will be on the phone to alert them tomorrow.  CFM will be addressing them. I will also post to confirm what I'm told here.


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## webbie

Keep in mind that the temp at which cast would glow - about 900 F - is a very normal temperature for the inside of a stove. The ember bed in a wood stove is easily 1200-1500+ F, so why would the cast iron that it touched be much cooler?

There are also different alloys of cast iron - some have chromium and other metals added in order to raise the temperature that the metal can withstand in everyday use. 

I am not an expert on metals either, but I would guess that iron alloy could easily take constant heating to 1000 degrees (red hot) and not warp or crack. The problem of warping is more likely to occur when it hits hotter temps than that....bright red, etc.

Cast iron exhaust manifold on older cars often glow red hot every time the engine is used! That is a lot of heating and cooling cycles!


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## TMonter

> Don’t believe than you must be another that has not read your manual. and you want to argue the point? Now I do realize that not all inspectors make the best effort. and that they can’t be bothered. Maybe all town or counties do not have the manpower for proper inspection coverage. I understand that but I have yet to hear these complainer state that. I know what is required in the state of Ny where this complainer lives and permits are required the othen complainer was from NY and the third one from MA and Iknow the codes in MA and his town is not a small rural tome I know his inspector he attended my seminar.  That accounts for the 3 most recent complainers



I didn't see anything in the national code that required a inspection, just compliance with the code. From what I can tell inspections are left up to local jurisdictions and my county here doesn't require a permit to install a wood stove as a replacement to an existing one.


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## BrotherBart

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Keep in mind that the temp at which cast would glow - about 900 F - is a very normal temperature for the inside of a stove. The ember bed in a wood stove is easily 1200-1500+ F, so why would the cast iron that it touched be much cooler?
> 
> There are also different alloys of cast iron - some have chromium and other metals added in order to raise the temperature that the metal can withstand in everyday use.
> 
> I am not an expert on metals either, but I would guess that iron alloy could easily take constant heating to 1000 degrees (red hot) and not warp or crack. The problem of warping is more likely to occur when it hits hotter temps than that....bright red, etc.
> 
> Cast iron exhaust manifold on older cars often glow red hot every time the engine is used! That is a lot of heating and cooling cycles!



That's what I have been thinking following the thread. What temps and how much glowing goes on in that cat chamber when the cats light off? Darn sure more than 900 degrees.

In fact 900 at a flue collar is more the rule than the exception when new loads are firing off on most any technology stove.


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## cmcramer

Mr. elkimmeg: I'll gladly fax you a copy of the letter right now if you'd like to see it. Email me your fax number if you'd like a copy. (cmcramer@usadatanet.net)

OK. I'll borrow a camera tomorrow.

I'll seal those dang crimps in the flue connector.

I'll remove the rear heat shield and inspect the cast iron underneath.

I don't know anything about tightening bolts and adjusting the 'refractory shoe'.

I'll stop being a "complainer" as soon possible


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## elkimmeg

Lets get to the bottom of this?  Was the stove installation permitted and inspected? What has you dealer done to address the issues? Who installed the stove?
 We recently took the office fax number out of the Centrix system and I have a new number not on my business inspection card. I will e-mail you after 9:00 Am with the correct Fax number.
 i will in turn Fax your reply to VC in VT.  then phone them.  If there is a design flaw then the public should know glowing red is not normal . If you have a defective stove where is your dealer in all this.  Please give me the background info.  I want to help you if I can. For me to press the issue with my contacts at Vc I have to know  the details including your dealer you purchased it from and his response.  To be fair I also will run this by Jack, if he is the distributor for your local. How did you get this letter from CFM?  One can not go into this like a bull in a china shop one has to know the details.  Did you know a phone call from me got  our Moderator's Winter warm replaced Mo heat.  I will try to do the same for you or atleast try to get answers. I need more info


 This being the third such post concerning the Everburn techology and a very heated post, all viewer including myself ,want to know if there is a problem with the Everburn technology


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## Gooserider

Elk, I will say I'm dissapointed that we aren't seeing a more visible response from VC on this, but I also am not sure that having the stove inspection would have prevented a problem - You and I have gone the rounds on this before, and I don't see a need to repeat, but I still maintain that an inspectors signature does not make a "code compliant" install, or the lack of a signature make a "non-compliant" install...   It all depends on the quality of the work performed, and I think a significant number of inspectors would not catch your "no crimps" rule as a failure....

I know that I'd been posting here for quite a while and had not seen any discussion of the stove collar length being an issue that would require trimming the crimps until a few days ago when you first raised the issue.  IIRC there were some of the other pro's on here that questioned you on this, let alone the rest of us.  

Up until seeing that discussion, my initial response to a short collar would probably have been to leave the crimps showing, after making sure the pipe was as far in as I could make it go, and just make sure that the required three screws per joint were there, and probably throw some refractory into the joint....  The need to trim strikes me as one of those rare, esoteric fine details in the code that would be easy to miss, and I would argue that if the stove maker isn't supplying a "starter adapter" with the right length crimp on it, there should be a mention of the need to trim in the manual along with the other instructions on connecting single wall pipe to the stove.

Note that EVERY VC manual that I got on our tour tells you to insert the connector pipe's crimped end into the stove connector, and secure it with three screws.  NOT ONE says anything about needing to use refractory cement, or any other sealant.  NOT ONE says anthing about not having exposed crimps, or a need to trim.  You might say that having exposed crimps and no sealant violates code - I would argue that the MANUFACTURUERS instructions _do not call for sealant, or prohibit exposed crimps_.  Therefore our problem stoves were installed *in accordance with the manufacturers STATED INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS*!

It is worth noting that the manuals ALL totally dodge the question of installing double wall pipe, or connecting to prefab chimneys, saying only to follow the manufacturers instructions, but they give fairly detailed instructions about how to connect single wall stove pipe - which include the three screws / joint, but don't say anything about exposed crimps or needing sealant....

The way the manual is written, it at least implies that the information in it, and possibly the instructions for any double wall pipe or prefab chimney, is all that's needed for a normal install (which will be code compliant and pass inspections) - I do not think that it is reasonable for VC to expect people to figure out trimming and the need for sealant if the manual doesn't tell them it's needed.

Any VC trained dealers or installers reading this?  I'd love to know if VC tells you about trimming and using sealants in the dealertraining?

 Gooserider


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## tradergordo

One thing I've noticed is that those with complaints seem to indicate an inability to control their burn, dampering down and closing the air control does not seem to bring the fire under control.  This indicates an air leak (or possibly excessive draft though this is less likely).  

As for VC telling people a little glow is OK - well I have no idea about that, but I can say that the lower back corners are protected by the rear heat shield, I can also say that I have never seen this glowing before on mine, not the corners, not around the collar, and certainly not the heat shield.  I don't think it can be all that common or more than one person would have mentioned it here (and again technically our man here did not describe what VC says is OK anyway).  May also be worth noting that I have NO crimps on my flue pipe where it enters the flue collar (or anywhere else for that matter, its a non-crimping brand: 22 gauge HeatFab Saf-T pipe, which I definitely recommend).  I can easily see where this might be a problem for some installs, the flue collar is not very deep, I wouldn't want any crimp on that piece.  Unfortunately there is nothing specific about this in the owners manual as Gooserider mentioned (or perhaps worse, they talk about inserting a crimped end) - this is something VC should clarify in future manuals.


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## BrotherBart

tradergordo said:
			
		

> One thing I've noticed is that those with complaints seem to indicate an inability to control their burn, dampering down and closing the air control does not seem to bring the fire under control.  This indicates an air leak (or possibly excessive draft though this is less likely).
> 
> As for VC telling people a little glow is OK - well I have no idea about that, but I can say that the lower back corners are protected by the rear heat shield, I can also say that I have never seen this glowing before on mine, not the corners, not around the collar, and certainly not the heat shield.  I don't think it can be all that common or more than one person would have mentioned it here (and again technically our man here did not describe what VC says is OK anyway).  May also be worth noting that I have NO crimps on my flue pipe where it enters the flue collar (or anywhere else for that matter, its a non-crimping brand).  I can easily see where this might be a problem for some installs, the flue collar is not very deep, I wouldn't want any crimp on that piece.  Unfortunately there is nothing specific about this in the owners manual as Gooserider mentioned (or perhaps worse, they talk about inserting a crimped end) - this is something VC should clarify in future manuals.



Do us a test. Get that famous "rumble" going real good and turn out the lights and take a look back there.


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## elkimmeg

Goose valid points  all listings require the inslaller to install the stove according to code compliance. That is emphatically stated. If the installer is not versed in code then maybe he should not be installing stoves. Without firing up my note book, all joints are required to be overlapped 1.5" coincidently is the length of the crimping, therefore no crimping should bee seen.
 I agree the manuals should address the starter piece.  iF stops are set only 1" deep. But the person installing the stove should be versed in code. When one can look between the valleys of the crimps and see what is going on in the combustion chamber, common senses should kick in. This is not normal. I would pass seeing the crimps if refactory cement filled the gaps or as I suggested using a starter piece or shortening the crimped area. that is my suggestion from years of experience. but no one should be able to see   the fire between spacing of the crimps. 

  You just justified  the reasons that  for permitting and inspections to check that the code and listings instructions are followed ,Thanks, And I thought you were anti gov. Unfortunately I have seen too many flue collar connections that failed. I fail them not worring about stove preformance, but thw what if draft backs up.  I worry about carbon monoxide leaking out that joint.

 I'm a little perplexed here are you advocating one should ignore the carbon monoxide leak potential? because one is not versed in code and the listing does not mention the real threat?

 One is allowed to do self installations. That does not allow the installer to scoff code, permitting, and safety. and if he does not know code then  inspections  become more important.

 the point here is all posters complaining about  everburn stove have flue collar to connector pipe leakage . Don't point the finger at me I'm looking  for solutions and getting the first connection right and sealed, properly is the start


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## Roospike

Again i hate to be the one to ask the question.........but ..............

I asked the question about taking the spark screen out of a chimney cap as it was posted and i was told its the *STOVE PIPE* and parts that can not be redesigned , modified or tampered with as to *VOID the UL listing* of the pre-made chimney pipe. 

So now my question would be if your trim , cut , change the pipe ( crimps ) does this not void the UL listing on the chimney pipe ?

If the chimney pipes are UL listed is there wording with VC in the install manual about only using this brand or that brand ? I cant imagine the stove would be built and not able to except standard UL listed stove pipe.


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## Gooserider

The things you say about installing to code being required are true Elk, but I don't agree that getting blessed by the sacred inspector pen is what makes the install safe...  You've admitted that not all inspectors are as knowledgeable on this subject as you are (and I respect your efforts to improve that), and we've seen more than a few tales here on the forum of "walk-through" inspections that passed installs with serious problems, so inspections are NOT going to solve this problem.  

Note that I am NOT inherently opposed to the idea of inspections on a voluntary and advisory basis. (indeed I've even mentioned to the GF the idea of asking if you'd be interested (during what seems to be your slow season) in coming up to look our house over and tell me what things I ought to fix and why - possibly with a priority order - I'm decent with tools and can do most sorts of repairs, but I'm not up on the problem identification side of things....)  I certainly have no problem with knowledgeable groups creating codes saying how things OUGHT to be done, and with following that advice - you will note in my posts that I may not tell people to get inspections and permits, but that I ALWAYS tell them to follow code as best I understand it (and say if I'm not sure) with the possible exception of faking it for short term testing....  

Where I take issue is with the "mother-may-I" aspect of the government telling me that I have to have their permision to build something on MY property, using MY money, etc. - if the insurance company wants to demand an inspection before they cover me, that's the insurance company's right to define under what conditions they are willing to do business with me.  The insurance company can refuse to do business with me, (or I with it) but 
I can't decline to do business with the gov't.  If I try, they will send a bunch of blue suited thugs down to steal my property and / or put me in a cage.  You frequently mention ORDERING people not to use certain things, or to change the way something is built - I'm not saying that you are wrong from a technical standpoint, I am asking who appointed you GOD  :question:  Elsewhere there is a thread about putting stoves in one's bedroom - and whether or not you would LET someone put a stove in their bedroom...  Warn them about the hazards, sure, but if the owner says that he considers the risks worth the added ambiance, Who the he!! are you to say they can't do it?  You aren't their mother, or even their BIG BROTHER, so why are you acting as one?  {Important note - I'm saying "You" here as the generic inspector - this isn't intended as a personal attack!}

The other aspect that I resent is the notion that I'm told it's for my safety, but it sure seems like a revenue source - I know you feel under paid for the inspections you do, but I've also sat in Town Meeting and heard multiple officials in the town gov't tell us that permits are an important REVENUE SOURCE for the Town Gov't....

Getting back to the main topic;

Knowing what I know now, I would also say that looking into the crimps and seeing the stove innards would bother me.  But if all I had was the manual, and I had religiously done what the manual said to do in all other respects, and noting the warning on the Fourth page that I should follow ALL INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY or my house might burn down - well if thats the way it looks it must be the way it's SUPPOSED TO LOOK - the manual told me to stick the crimp into the stove outlet, and they put a mechanical stop there to keep the crimp from going all the way in like it did on the rest of the pipes so it must be done that way on purpose....  

Given that, I'd be down right peeved if the inspector then came along and told me to do it differently!  Note that I am NOT scoffing at code or safety - I am trying to do the "RIGHT THING" just like the book told me to do, what do you mean the book is wrong?

I am NOT pointing the finger at you Elk, I'm sure you are correct on the technical aspects of it, but that doesn't change what the manual says either.  If the finger should be pointed anywhere, it should be resting solidly on VC's head, and I hope you will tell them that when you talk to them next....


----------



## Gooserider

Roospike said:
			
		

> Again i hate to be the one to ask the question.........but ..............
> 
> I asked the question about taking the spark screen out of a chimney cap as it was posted and i was told its the *STOVE PIPE* and parts that can not be redesigned , modified or tampered with as to *VOID the UL listing* of the pre-made chimney pipe.
> 
> So now my question would be if your trim , cut , change the pipe ( crimps ) does this not void the UL listing on the chimney pipe ?
> 
> If the chimney pipes are UL listed is there wording with VC in the install manual about only using this brand or that brand ? I cant imagine the stove would be built and not able to except standard UL listed stove pipe.



Good questions Roo!  I know when I bought an elbow from a local stove shop a while back, it came from the factory with no crimps on either end, the shop manually crimped it when I bought it, so they were modifying it as a matter of routine practice.  

The VC manual didn't specify any brands of pipe, but did list various standards that different types of pipe should meet.  As far as I could tell, there was nothing that would have made the requirment for the pipe going into the coupler any different from the pipes on the rest of the setup.  In the single wall pipe section they mentioned that some makers offered "special slip sections" of pipe that might "eliminate the need to cut" the pipes, which implies that they thought it was OK to cut single wall pipe (double wall, and other types of chimney they said to "follow manufacturer instructions")

 Gooserider


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## rtljr

I'm another Encore non-cat owner; almost two months of ownership.  I too have had the same issue, three times now, with a glowing red back around the area of the flue collar upon reload.  Stove temperature on the left top will rise to the 500 - 550 degree range.  Stove pipe temperature (single wall) one foot above the flue collar has been as high as 650 degrees as measured by a Rutland magnetic thermometer.  In all three instances the stove top temperature increased by a maximum of 100 degrees while the stove pipe increased from 300 degrees at reload up to 

Wicked rumbling is evident during these conditions.  I can see fire in a gap around the flue collar when in updraft mode and when the stove "runs away" there is visible glowing inside the flue collar followed by glowing on the rear of the stove around the flue collar.  This glowing starts on the right (as viewed from the rear of the stove) of the flue collar and then progresses to the left.  The glowing starts at the junction of the top of the stove and the rear plate around the flue collar, marches downward and then starts to progress along the bottom of the flue collar with the two glowing trails heading towards each other.

The first time this happened, I rode it out.  The second time I switched to updraft mode and covered the logs with cold wood ash.  In all cases the primary air control was set to the minimum air flow setting.  The second runaway was during a reload at 4 AM and I could see the reflection of flames flickering off my hearth pad under the air inlet at the rear of the stove.  On the last runaway, I stuffed an insulted oven mitt into the air inlet and things settled down within about ten minutes.  (Thanks to the poster who relayed how to stop a runaway Detroit Diesel somewhere on this forum, it worked with my Encore too!)

My Encore is hooked up via single wall black pipe to a ceiling thimble.  From the thimble, there is about seven feet of double wall stainless to a thirty degree elbow followed by another thirty degree elbow to clear a roof truss.  From there it is a straight shot up through the roof with about eight feet of double wall stainless to clear the ridge.

It sounds like some commonalities are present here.  I look forward to continuing to follow this thread.  In the meantime, I am not operating my stove as glowing red parts constitute overfiring per my owner's manual and voids the warranty on this $2,000 stove.  In addition the paint at the top of the rear heat shield as viewed from the rear of the stove is flaking off.  Perhaps this stove got a wee bit too hot.


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## elkimmeg

Roospike said:
			
		

> Again i hate to be the one to ask the question.........but ..............
> 
> I asked the question about taking the spark screen out of a chimney cap as it was posted and i was told its the *STOVE PIPE* and parts that can not be redesigned , modified or tampered with as to *VOID the UL listing* of the pre-made chimney pipe.
> 
> So now my question would be if your trim , cut , change the pipe ( crimps ) does this not void the UL listing on the chimney pipe ?
> 
> If the chimney pipes are UL listed is there wording with VC in the install manual about only using this brand or that brand ? I cant imagine the stove would be built and not able to except standard UL listed stove pipe.



 Roo we are talking single wall stove vent pipe here naturally you are allowed to cut it to fit it to length Single wall stove pipe is not UL listed  its rolled up 24 gage steel the same steel you ciy in your shop Are you saying it you  cut a sheet of steel you loose the UL listing? that"s Ridic  I think you read something wrong here or missinterpeted some thing said cutting Single wall pipe has nothing to do with UL listings making proper tight joints and using the right gage metal is all that is required.


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## cmcramer

> If you have a defective stove where is your dealer in all this.  Please give me the background info.  I want to help you if I can. For me to press the issue with my contacts at Vc I have to know the details including your dealer you purchased it from and his response.  To be fair I also will run this by Jack, if he is the distributor for your local. How did you get this letter from CFM?



I called the Dealer - Truax and Hovey, Liverpool, NY. I described the issue to "Howard" (cell 315-374-1535) , who said he'd look into it. An hour later, Howard calls to say VC Field Rep - Bob Carpenter - faxed him a letter and I can receive a copy. Also, Field Rep says VC will "stand by their product" and will call me and perhaps visit in 2-3 weeks "when he is in my area."

Also, I do not see flames through my unsealed crimps at flue connection at any time.

I'm heading out to get tools now....gonna take off rear heat shield, inspect, and seal crimps as I reassemble flue connection. Then fire it up and observe.

Thank you all very much for your interest in my stove issue.


----------



## elkimmeg

ok here are common factors all those that have experienced oveer firing  do not have a good d seal flue collar to connector pipe all can view fire threw the connection.

 there are 2 flue collar options for this stove the standard 8" oval or the optional 6" round The first question I have is which flue collars do these stoves have?
 the second variable is these flue collars can be reversed to exit to the rear or to the top is the rear exit or top exit  used in these cicumstances? If reversed from factory settings is the flue collar seated properly. If not,  could they be leaking adding to the problem, Again no poster has supplied any dialoge with there dealer and in no case has the dealers been out to trouble 
 shoot these issues, Why????? This is what the dealers are suposed to do. Who  has confirmed these stoves are properly setup? os the Everburn shoe seated properly 
Are all the connecting bolts properly tightened who has checked this? Is the flue collar properly seated? Where is your dealer in all this, to comfirm and trouble shoot these issues?

 After all it is the dealers that get the technical bulitins as to current problems and fixes.  No manufacturer puts them on public forums that's why they setup dealer networks.

 Can anyone tell me where their dealer stands on these issues? Why is it being hashed out here?  There is something wrong in the way this is going down. The people trained and 
 most qualified to solve these problems are not being heard from Why?

 I'm trying to get to the bottom of this and get some answers but I need to know why dealers and tech support have not been involved. and if they were what did they do and what is their take on the situation?  Every new stove requires some assembly and setup who is checking to see if these stoves in question are setup properly? 


 Part of the setup requires adjusting the door latch and ash cleanout door latch. A poor sealing ash door, definitely spell conditions of overfiring  as does the front door seals,

Who is confirming these seals are not contribution to these condition. I did get an e-mail from VC telling me that dealers have to check the everburn shoe alignment ans seating and gasket 
seal.  Again who is setting up these stoves? who is checking out all the possible  issues.  Are all these stoves defective?  Why has the dealer not  replaced them if they are defective?

 Almost nobody on a public forum has the expertise to trouble shoot your stoves,  especially true for a recent technology stove. 

 Again what is your dealer input?


----------



## rtljr

8" round oval flue collar, top exit on my non-cat Encore.  Dealer is coming over Saturday to look over their installation.  Will post dealer findings after that time.


----------



## cmcramer

I have a 6" vertical flue collar. Just took it off, and the gasket material was smushed flat underneath- good seal, I'd say. Both doors and ash drawer also have good, tight seals as judged by the force required to turn the handles tight. The stove does keep a good, long, very steady fire under almost all conditions. As for dealer response, please see my previous post.

I took of the rear heat shield off just now. The rear heat shield on these stoves 'stands-off' the cast iron rear plate of the stove 1 to 1.5 inches...but NOT in all areas. Right next to the flue collar, where the heat shield comes to an end, the heat shield bends in toward the cast iron at 90 degrees, such that the edge of the heat shield actually touches the cast iron. This leaves a 1 inch strip of the rear cast iron plate exposed and visible, right next to the flue collar bolts. The portion that glows red has actually been this cast iron - not the heat shield itself, although the heat shield has still lost paint.  I apologize for misleading you - an honest mistake.

But still....., most of the rear cast iron plate on this stove is now rust-colored: no black paint left.  So the letter from CFM/VC does, in fact, describe my issue! With the heat shield off, you can inspect the entire back cast iron plate, including the rear corners normally covered by the heat shield, and it is almost all rusty. That whole dang thing is glowing red, I'll bet!

Gonna seal it up, seal those crimps, and fire it up. This will be a good test.

So thanks to all who were alarmed at my "the heat shield glows red" statement. You were right to sound the safety alarm, I was wrong. Nevertheless, we still have a glowing red CAST IRON back plate issue, as acknowledged by CFM/VC letter.


----------



## tradergordo

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Do us a test. Get that famous "rumble" going real good and turn out the lights and take a look back there.




DONE, there is nothing to see!  I'd be more than happy to make a video if it would help, then at least those who are interested can  hear what that everburn rumble should sound like anyway... but there isn't going to be anything else very exciting to see, nothing glows, you can't see fire looking down at the flue collar, etc.  

NOTE: I have a dutchwest large, which is quite a bit larger and heavier than the Encore - IF there is an engineering issue (and that is still a big IF) my guess is that it's related to the smaller stoves not being built to properly handle (exchange) the secondary combustion heat.  Although I REALLY can't understand HOW something like that could POSSIBLY have been missed in testing the product before it ever went commercial.  Only guess I have is that the owners with complaints either have much more draft than they ever had in the VC labs or they have leaks (and the evidence points to the leak theory - you SHOULD NOT be able to look down at the flue collar and see fire!).

My stove has a firebox that is almost 50% larger than the encore's, and I pack it as full of wood as I can every night, and I've never seen any glowing stove parts, nor has any paint flaked off ANYWHERE on the stove.


----------



## elkimmeg

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> elkimmeg said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have inspected at least a dozen everburn stoves, I have yet to hear one complaint. I know the flue collar connection is correct or I would not pass the inspection... Then one has to ask, if they can't get the first connection right , then what else is not up to snuff? Now we have posters wanting to diss the crap out of a manufacturer because of posters with incorrect installs and installed illegally. Sounds about right?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then why the hesitation to install the donor stove?
Click to expand...


Like you I am reading these post and now have concerns.  I mean  there exist a letter from Vc  stating glowing red is ok?  I think that alone  would kick in a concern?

I don't want to be part of installing a flawed designed stove. Remember inspectors are not part of stove opperations, only that they are installed code compliant.


----------



## elkimmeg

I sent this e-mail off  to the the head of VC opperations in Vermont

"Dale this letter has found its way onto a public forum.  In one day it has gathered so much interest that 800 people have viewed this post.   Some posters have swapped stoves to other manufactures some have suggested recalls.
 Owners are confused should their stove glow red it voids the warranty, but this letter acknowledges it is a common occurrence.  The past few weeks the Everburn stoves  are severely questioned. IT has come to a point, that almost all readers  looking at your everburn  product post are not considering VC products. Every manufacturer states glowing red is a condition of over firing. It will take a lot of PR to convince the public that Glowing red is acceptable. Again Hearth.net would welcome  input from CFM. As to the reasons this occurs and any work arounds 

 the letter

    November 3, 2006
    Subject: Glowing Rear Components

    I am writing this letter in response to reports that parts of the rear cast assemblies on the Resolute Acclaim and some of our Everburn Woodstoves are glowing red. The hot flue gases do hit the sides here while turning to go vertical in the rear lower right and rear lower left of the stoves.  On a large load of wood it is normal for these areas to glow while the fire is at its peak (typically one or two hours during a burn cycle) and dull “blood red” glowing may extend upward toward the base of the flue collar.  These areas have been reinforced to deal with the excess temperatures that may occur here. The glowing does not constitute any safety or operational issue.

    If further questions arise, please contact me.

    Sincerely yours,
    CFM Corporation
    John Davidson
    Senior Technical Advisor


----------



## elkimmeg

What happens if Vc requires you to fax in a certificate of inspections before warranty work is issued? There listing requires these stoves to be installed per listing which clearly states code compliance? That piece of paper can be required .It is proof the instalation was done right,therfore it must be a problem with the stove? 

 Not one of the complainers  has answered the question I asked about if their stoves were permitted and passed compliance. I take a lot of **** to complain about illegal installations.

 I"ve come to the conclusion, I can no longer help stoves that are illegally installed. To me these installation scoff the very ground I stand. By helping, 
I am encouraging more people to scofff my profession,  that I work dilligently  at.


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## Shane

Elk I can see your point, but what about the stories we constantly hear about people having to drag the inspectors by their ears to actually inspect even though they've purchased their permits?  How many stories have we heard when people call the AHJ they say an inspection is not necessary?  There are people here that could not get an inspection, it's not their fault.  And you must admit that not everyone does/knows their jobs like you.  Many times inspections can be nothing but a technicality as the inspector is not familar enough with the products/codes they're inspecting/enforcing.  You know the stuff that we've seen passed that shouldn't have been.  VC should be able to confirm proper installation via the dealer.  A couple of the people having problems have mentioned that their dealers will be arriving to check the situations.  I wouldn't sway from helping folks with un-inspected installs, they're not scoffing the ground on which you stand.  How many times have you helped folks out that have recieved bad info from their dealers/ahj's/friend and family members?  You know that ignorance is excessively prevalent in this industry and that people put their trust in people they shouldn't.  Is that not a major function of this site for us with experience and knowledge to help those without?  If it weren't for the pro's on this board (and others with solid knowledge) where would some of these folks be?  I can tell you some of them probably wouldn't be typing from warm comfy non-burnt down homes!  Now it's different when we encounter people who say they don't care about codes etc.  Those are the ones to write off.


----------



## TMonter

> There listing requires these stoves to be installed per listing which clearly states code compliance?



Code compliance does not mean an inspection is required. Both my Wood stoves are properly installed to code, but have never been inspected by anyone other than the insurance company.


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## elkimmeg

shane in many rural states I would agree with you but two posters are from NY which borders Ma and I know they enforce code. The other is from Billirica Ma  a town of 40,000 and here is a link to there goverment page.

http://tinyurl.com/2e3q8j [edit: Tiny link by Mo for readability.]

 The building officials attended my seminar last year at Bridgewater State college.  I have my notes and the flue collar to connector pipe  was covered. 
 In the state of Ma we require a solid fuel affdavit stating the the installation was preformed according to code. It is part of the wood stove permitting application available to all 351 citties and towns posted on the state web site.


----------



## TMonter

> The building officials attended my seminar last year at Bridgewater State college.  I have my notes and the flue collar to connector pipe was covered.
> In the state of Ma we require a solid fuel affdavit stating the the installation was preformed according to code. It is part of the wood stove permitting application available to all 351 citties and towns posted on the state web site.



I can find nothing on their site that someone replacing a stove has to have the new stove re-inspected. I can imagine that it would need to be installed per the code.

Do you have a better link?


----------



## Shane

> shane in many rural states I would agree with you but two posters are from NY which borders Ma and I know they enforce code. The other is from Billirica Ma a town of 40,000 and here is a link to there goverment page.



Each situation should be judged differently.  If they didn't get the inspections and they're required then they should.  Of course this may or may not be the issue.  They could be installed perfectly.  I understand you pointing out that we just don't know.  I'm really interested to see the response from VC to your letter.  They've talked a big talk about "being a believer" and I've believed (blindly) let's see what happens with this situation.  Even if the Everburn system does end up needing changed or something I still believe that VC has produced some of the finest stoves ever made, and while not considering a certain model for a possible purchase is reasonable.  I don't believe that saying "I would never buy a VC" is reasonable.  If that's the case then I will never buy a Ford Chevy or Dodge etc.


----------



## elkimmeg

TMonter said:
			
		

> The building officials attended my seminar last year at Bridgewater State college.  I have my notes and the flue collar to connector pipe was covered.
> In the state of Ma we require a solid fuel affdavit stating the the installation was preformed according to code. It is part of the wood stove permitting application available to all 351 citties and towns posted on the state web site.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can find nothing on their site that someone replacing a stove has to have the new stove re-inspected. I can imagine that it would need to be installed per the code.
> 
> Do you have a better link?
Click to expand...



 codes in Ma which mirror the national codes

http://tinyurl.com/22o462 [edit: Tiny link by Mo. This link was broken, anyway. Hey elk, how about using Tiny!]


----------



## elkimmeg

TMonter said:
			
		

> The building officials attended my seminar last year at Bridgewater State college.  I have my notes and the flue collar to connector pipe was covered.
> In the state of Ma we require a solid fuel affdavit stating the the installation was preformed according to code. It is part of the wood stove permitting application available to all 351 citties and towns posted on the state web site.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can find nothing on their site that someone replacing a stove has to have the new stove re-inspected. I can imagine that it would need to be installed per the code.
> 
> Do you have a better link?
Click to expand...



 codes in Ma which mirror the national codes

[edit: bad link deleted to prevent MASSIVE scrolling! Elk, use Tiny!]


 try this link
[edit: another bad link deleted by Mo.]


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## TMonter

None of the links work. All come up 404 Not found


----------



## Highbeam

Shane said:
			
		

> shane in many rural states I would agree with you but two posters are from NY which borders Ma and I know they enforce code. The other is from Billirica Ma a town of 40,000 and here is a link to there goverment page.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Each situation should be judged differently.  If they didn't get the inspections and they're required then they should.  Of course this may or may not be the issue.  They could be installed perfectly.  I understand you pointing out that we just don't know.  I'm really interested to see the response from VC to your letter.  They've talked a big talk about "being a believer" and I've believed (blindly) let's see what happens with this situation.  Even if the Everburn system does end up needing changed or something I still believe that VC has produced some of the finest stoves ever made, and while not considering a certain model for a possible purchase is reasonable.  I don't believe that saying "I would never buy a VC" is reasonable.  If that's the case then I will never buy a Ford Chevy or Dodge etc.
Click to expand...


Hi Shane, it is very very common for folks to remain loyal to brands and disloyal to others based on brand alone. Especially Truck brands. The VC appears to be a fine product, it is the company position in this situation which leads me to label the brand as fighting an uphill battle. "Never" is a strong word and I won't say never, but I will say that the competition has an automatic leg up over that red hot potatoe. I am eagerly awaiting the VC response. VC sure takes a bashing on other sites as well. I guess all publicity is good publicity.


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## cmcramer

It's not the seal at flue connection. (just tested out newly sealed stove: still glows red)
It's not faulty seal at door or ash pan.
It's not overly dry wood.
It's not too much draft.
It's not lack of a building permit.
It's not lack of certificate of compliance.
It's not about being a "complainer".

It _is _ about design/engineering flaws, acknowledged -  in writing - by CFM/VC's Senior Technical Advisor, that void my warrantee.

IF Glowing parts = Overfiring,
AND Overfiring = Misuse,
AND Misuse = Void Warrantee
THEN Glowing Parts = Void Warrantee

Let's see, how do I start my letter...How about:
"Dear Mr. Attorney General"


----------



## rtljr

My stove installation was inspected both by the local fire department for permit purposes and by my insurance company prior to use.  The dealerthat I purchased from and who installed the stove will be out Saturday AM to inspect the stove.  They will contact VC for any information prior to the appointment.  The co-owner said that it sounded like too much draft and, due to gasketed construction rather than cemented construction, there might be an air leak somewhere.  Both my family and my wife's family are long-time VC owners (original Defiant and Vigilant).  Due to the new technology I expect a long learning curve, but I don't want to put my wife and children in danger or damage an expensive piece of hardware.


----------



## cmcramer

Please keep us informed!

If you would like a copy of the letter from CFM/VC that acknowledges this glowing stove problem, just email me your fax number and I'll fax you a copy.


----------



## elkimmeg

don't for get to send your letter to consumer affairs and division of product safety or public safety also forward your letter to CFM. I say go for it 
glowing red is unacceptable..

 BTw are all the stoves involved matt black? or are they enamal coated. If enamaled look real close, glowing red should be cracking the enamal 
Can you post a picture of the glowing red?

 I tke a step back I was  justy trying to qualify the conditions and the instalation I did send the letter I posted to the Vermont Castings plant in Vermont.
  I did not get a response yet. If I do I will post it


----------



## Harley

Just making a suggestion

It seems this has gotten a little beyond the type of installation/use of the stove issue - for all interested - I think at this point - we are talking about safety and how to fix the problem - not point fingers.

Elk did the right thing and let VC know what was being said here... that was a little while ago, and quite frankly, the lack of response does really say a lot to me.  It wasn't too long ago that we heard they may participate in the discussion.  I have always been a big VC fan, so I'm not "bashing" them because I've recently switched brands.

Given all of the details that have been put out on this thread - In my mind - I really have to put this issue in VC's court.... not the stove owner, and not even the dealer who sold the stove.  There's been a little somewhat heated discussion about the everburn technology, but they are in 2 different models of stoves, so what works in 1 may not work in the other (Gordo - I'd still like to see the video and hear what the "rumble" sounds like).

Although I said above "not point fingers" - I guess I just did.  I believe it would be in VC's interest to respond to the 'glowing red metal is OK'   <no - that wasn't quotes> part of the letter.

I'd still like to hear something from them saying they even give a crap about the issue and that they are looking into it - but so far - nothing.


----------



## Shane

The thing that was strange to me is that they included the Acclaim in the letter.  That's an older non-cat that doesn't use EBT.  The combustion package is a soft ceramic fiber material like the cat housings on the cat models.  I don't have any complaints of glowing and I have roughly 10 of these stoves sold (ones with EBT includes VC & Dutchwest models).  Also there is another VC dealer in town that supposedly dwarfs my sales so surely he's sold plenty.  I wonder if there is a specific production run with a defect or something?  If they come out with a safety recall I'll be sure to contact all of our customers etc.
Webmaster brought up a good point that cast manifolds etc commonly glow on cars and that it is possible that what was said in the letter is reasonable.  I mean really I don't think that VC is a deceptive company and would try to dodge a huge issue.  John Davidson I'm sure would not write such a letter without permission/support of the CFM brass and or legal counsel, as doing such surely could jeapardize his job.  And I certainly wouldn't think that such a letter would be issued if it could not be backed up somehow?  It just seems illogical to me.
Also note that I am not trying to downplay the issue at hand, there are obviously people with stoves that are over firing judging by some of the stack temps mentioned.  But what if it is simply a case of some failed seam gasket?  To me the technology is tried and true in a sense it's over 3 years old.  Many stove companies utilize it.  We're not talking about a Whitfield Photoeye or something.


----------



## elkimmeg

It may be it took a while for for  problems to arise the customer base finally finds Hearth.net forums. the letter was dated in Mov but it acknowledges a problem that existed prior to them.. 

Is it only confined to the Encore and Resolute Acclaim?  what about the just released non cat Defiant .Also note no mention was given about glowing red in the Dutchwest line

 Is the glowing red only visiable in the mat black stoves? has anyone seen it in the enamaled stoves?. Shane you are a dealer and you find out about the letter john davinson wrote 3 months back here on hearth.net.  Did you know VC had a recall on their sequioa fireplaces last year?


----------



## Shane

Yeah we definately knew about the recall.  That's the thing VC in general is very proactive about recall situations etc.  My distributor called me and said "you have one of the Sequoias that are part of the recall, it is field repairable and the kit is on the way."  1 week after the kit was delivered a follow up call was made to ensure that I had installed the kit and filed the paperwork.  Very proactive in getting their product fixed and making sure they were all fixed.  I don't recall seeing the letter from John Davidson last November, however, I was not in the office as much at this point.  I was installing stoves, so I could have missed it, forgotten that I read it, or maybe it wasn't sent to every dealer.  Seems like I'd remember it though.


----------



## rtljr

My Encore is non-enameled.


----------



## elkimmeg

Can one of you post a picture of the stove  glowing red, all the light off, so that the glowing is exposed and highlighted?

 I had a feeling your stove was matt black, as the glowing may not show up in the enamal coated stoves.

 That does not mean it is not occuring in the enamal stoves its just not  as visiable


----------



## elkimmeg

Update Dale is on the road this week so my e-mail to him is sitting on his computer not opened yet
 Next I called the head of enginerering spoke to him and just sent him the Email I am also faxing him a copy
 I do have some good news you two may want to PM me we can discuss   what is going  on behind the sceens not ready to publish on the forum and not quite confirmed.
 CMcramer PM me back this morning but I have not communicated with rtljr 

 I also have supplied this discussion link to VC head of engineering


----------



## tradergordo

Harley said:
			
		

> (Gordo - I'd still like to see the video and hear what the "rumble" sounds like)



OK, by request - I created the "everburn rumble" video.  Not sure my server can handle much traffic, and its a huge file, but see if you can download it:
EverburnDemo.avi

PROBABLY BEST to right click the link and do a "save target as" instead of trying to play it directly.  I'll put a lower resolution version on YouTube as soon as I can figure out what happened to the software I used to have to shrink video files.

-Gordo


----------



## Corie

It won't right click save as for me? 

IDK why


----------



## Corie

Well I got it to download!

Very very interesting.  Its also interesting how you can see the fire through the intake holes for the everburn system.


----------



## Gunner

can't get it to run...says connecting but never does.


----------



## Roospike

I cant get it to open . save as target saves a link page that does the same thing as direct.
It sits there and spins and i have 5 meg download.

Monster file ?


----------



## begreen

It downloaded ok for me. I am blown away by the stack temps. 950 to 1050 "normal" operating range? I've never seen that with any of the stoves I've owned.  Well, at least there's no creosote in those pipes.


----------



## Roospike

I let the download run and it did come up. I was in the back room and couldnt figure out who was talking in the kitchen ! ( computer room is of of the kitchen )

Any good pictures of the rear air intakes of the stove ?


----------



## elkimmeg

The secondary burn chamber it is nit unusual to see it go 1,400 or even up to 1,700 degree in there.
With smoke channeled in the high heat chamber, is it any wonder a few particulates get burned off

This is the same setup the Lopi Leyden ,Harman oak wood and Quad Island royal uses
Smoke is forced down the coal bed drawn up into the secondary combustion chamber super heated hot air is injected and the high heat secondary burn begins

All Non cat Encores and Defiants have rear and bottom heat shields not an option they are attached as standard equipment the refractory package of insulation they use is the same that insulate the molten steel/cast iron pots that are then tipped and poured into the molds so IT constantly can take 2,700 degrees.
BE green that explains the rear distance to combustibles its damn hot back there

As to the problems after a lengthy discussion with engineering yesterday here are some thoughts I came away with
ONE VC realized that the dealers are not preparing /education the customers as to the characteristics of using the everburn system.,

When damperd down to activate the everburn/ secondary burn cycle, it is very similar to the Cat models after the initial rolling flames gas off
it settles down to a glowing coals burn Not that wild active fire of the air tube secondary burning but a sedate glowing ember fire. VC noted that the common user is so used to seeing open flames they think they are doing something wrong s the combination of the glowing primary burn and the secondary burn is producing the heat expected, but to one not understanding this they think the stove is not performing right. Some will open the ash door and create a blast furnace in there. Others start opening up the primary air to full open.

Nobody has explained that the stove acts normal without a dancing flame display. One can get this in the open damper mode.

The John Davidson letter in this post did not originate in engineering till I faxed them a copy yesterday engineering had not seen or had knowledge of the letter. His job is to train and educate the dealers and techs. He is not part of engineering, where a letter of this info should have originated.

VC head engineer first response was that of an air leak most probably the ash door latch or gasketing. Their second-guess it the stoves are being over fired. The third possibility the stoves are being overloaded. Yes it is possible to overload these stoves A fully loaded stove is loaded to the bottom of the rear damper exit. However with top loading it is possible to load over the damper all the way to just getting the top griddle closed about 6’ more inched are available that can be overloaded.  Loading in that air space changes the airflow dynamics of the stove.

Which once it gets going, could lead to over firing.  Another part of the Everburn operations is raking the hot coals to the middle rear around the refractory everburn shoe.
Most stoves we are accustomed to using, we all rake the coal bed forward and to the front.  How long did it take the PE burners to adopt north south loading well there is a learning curb to working the Everburn system be a VC product. Harman, Quad, or Lopi. 
LETS face facts in order to increase efficiency the heat has to stay in the stove longer more smoke particulates have to be burned off. That equates to less leaving up the chimney.

These stoves require good draft setups. That old direct connect is not going to work well as we dissected when a PE was direct connected in Ny the guy complained he was not getting heat.
it takes a good draft to accomplish a decent secondary burn.  There are about 4 methods employed in producing secondary burn the cats and everburn use the secondary burn chambers
The third method is baffles and air tubes the forth is plain baffles. 

Again there is also the possibility these stoves have some qc issues.  VC would like to get them in their testing lab and see what the issues are.  Till yesterday engineering did not know of these issues or the letter from John. Normally I do not communicate with engineering but to the head of operations.  The reason I did not get a response is he is not in this week.

VC has indicated they intend to get this situation worked out I have PM both poster here that have issues and asked them about an


----------



## Gunner

Finally got the video. Couple Q's
Do you have to let it get that hot before engaging the damper?
What temps does it settle in at?
Whats the "coolest" you can run and still get everburn?  How does this effect spring/fall burning?

Being able to look into the stove threw the holes in the back is freaky.

Good work on the vid.


----------



## tradergordo

Elk - good points - and again it also goes back to the poorly written manual - something VC can easily fix (and they should!).  We discussed this a while ago, but their old manuals went into great detail about how the stoves work, and the new manual doesn't cover it at all!  You are right about the characteristics of the burn - and in my video you can see how the fire looks with the damper open, and how it looks about 20 seconds after closing the bypass to activate the everburn secondary combustion.  What I should have added is what it looked like 15-20 minutes later with the primary air completely cut off.  The flue temps were stable at about 800 degrees F, the slight rumble was still going, and there were basically no flames in the firebox - just nicely glowing orange coals.  This is the beauty of "horizontal combustion" - you get nice hot fires that last as long as possible without the wood on top being consumed too quickly, all with little to no particulate emissions.  A snapshot from an hour or two later would show the everburn still going, with stack temps maybe down to 700, same old glowing fire with little to no flames - keeping the house warm all night long.

Regarding the potential problem with the encore - perhaps for some reason the cast iron around the secondary burn chamber is not adequately insulated with the ceramic filament material?  Not sure.  The engineers seem to think its a leak issue.  To the original poster - how did you go about testing the gaskets?


----------



## tradergordo

Gunner said:
			
		

> Finally got the video. Couple Q's
> Do you have to let it get that hot before engaging the damper?
> What temps does it settle in at?
> Whats the "coolest" you can run and still get everburn?  How does this effect spring/fall burning?
> 
> Being able to look into the stove threw the holes in the back is freaky.
> 
> Good work on the vid.



I like to bring it up near 1000 before closing the bypass damper, because doing so works nearly every time (and by "works" I mean the everburn doesn't stall out after 5 or 10 minutes).  Now you can (and I have) close the bypass sooner, but your results may vary, sometimes it works fine, sometimes it stalls.  Mine usually settles in between 600-800 within 20 minutes of closing the bypass.  The coolest I can run and still get an everburn is about 500.  Regarding spring/fall burning - it is VERY EASY to overheat the house - I'm still learning how to burn in warmer temps because even this week when temps got to the 40's the house hit 80.  Its just a matter of changing how you burn, you need to build smaller fires and plan to let them die out completely.  

"Being able to look into the stove threw the holes in the back is freaky."  Yea, that is an interesting feature...


----------



## begreen

This doesn't explain the high stack temps. In the video the stack thermometer is about 18" above the stove. A thousand degrees seems really high to me. Isn't that a lot of heat being wasted by going up the stack? Are these *stack* temps normal for all of this style stove? What are other owners seeing?

 Also, to my knowledge, the Quad Isle Royale does not use the same technology. From what I understand, although it too is a top loader, it should not be grouped with the VC, Lopi and Harman stoves. Its design preceeded these stoves and it does not get as hot in the rear of the stove. The Isle Royale has rear corner clearance of 6 inches. I can't corner install a VC, Lopi or Harman, but can install an IR. Can we get some reports on stack temps typical with the Isle Royale from Jags and Carpneil?


----------



## cmcramer

Elk wrote



> All Non cat Encores and Defiants have rear and bottom heat shields not an option they are attached as standard equipment



Not exactly. The bottom heat shield was NOT attached, and my stove sits on an unpainted cement basement floor so my understanding is that the bottom shield is not required. Is this correct?




> VC realized that the dealers are not preparing /education the customers as to the characteristics of using the everburn system



I agree, and I have been burning wood for 30 years, 5 different stoves.



> VC head engineer first response was that of an air leak most probably the ash door latch or gasketing.



A brand new $2000 stove should not have an air leak, but I will certainly test for this. How do I test ? In Everburn mode, do I stick a smoking cigar under the stove? What's your suggestion?



> Their second-guess it the stoves are being over fired.



Obviously. But being overfired by running them per VC manual. That's the point.



> The third possibility the stoves are being overloaded. Yes it is possible to overload these stoves A fully loaded stove is loaded to the bottom of the rear damper exit. However with top loading it is possible to load over the damper all the way to just getting the top griddle closed about 6’ more inched are available that can be overloaded.  Loading in that air space changes the airflow dynamics of the stove.



Interesting. As noted in my earliest posts and the Davidson letter, yes, glowing stoves happen in Everburn mode  (550-600 surface temp) and re-loaded VERY FULL.  Yes, I have, in fact, re-loaded to above the base of the rear damper door and glowing resulted. To avoid glowing I am now filling burn chamber about half full. If this is an issue, the manual and dealer sure should have emphasized it. How many woodstoves have a limit on how full you can fill the burn chamber? And wouldn't you think VC would have tested the heck out of these stoves - including maxing them out in every way - before marketing them?



> Another part of the Everburn operations is raking the hot coals to the middle rear around the refractory everburn shoe.



I believe you.....but this is news to me. Not in manual. Never heard of such a thing before. I will test this out in up coming days.




> Again there is also the possibility these stoves have some qc issues.  VC would like to get them in their testing lab and see what the issues are.  VC has indicated they intend to get this situation worked out



Some QC issues? I agree, again. VC can certainly have my stove back for QC testing. I want to be a good customer, and I hope they want to continue to be my woodstove company.

Thank for the help!


----------



## tradergordo

cmcramer said:
			
		

> A brand new $2000 stove should not have an air leak, but I will certainly test for this. How do I test ? In Everburn mode, do I stick a smoking cigar under the stove? What's your suggestion?



Probably not a bad idea, although I would start with the traditional "dollar bill test".  Starting to sound like a broken record now, but again there seems to be a problem with Vermont Castings manuals, my manual has a section called "Test and Repair the Door Gaskets" but the Encore manual doesn't seem to have the same.  Anyway, it says:

"Air leaks can be caused by low spots in the door gaskets.

To locate such low spots, close each door on a
slip of paper and attempt to pull the paper free. If the
paper slips out without tearing, the gasket isn’t snug
enough at that spot.

If the seal cannot be improved by adjusting the door
latch, try shimming the gasket. Pack a small quantity of
cement or a smaller diameter gasket into the channel
beneath the gasket to lift the main gasket and thereby
improve its contact with the door frame.
If shimming does not improve the seal, replace the
gasket following these steps..."





			
				cmcramer said:
			
		

> Another part of the Everburn operations is raking the hot coals to the middle rear around the refractory everburn shoe.
> 
> I believe you.....but this is news to me. Not in manual. Never heard of such a thing before. I will test this out in up coming days.



Once again this is something left out of the manual, but mentioned to me by a CFM technician.  My manual says:
"Once the fire is burning steadily, continue
adding fuel until a thick bed has been established on
the grate. The bed should be about 2” (50mm) deep
and should cover the throat opening into the secondary
combustion chamber that is located in the lower center
fireback."

OK - that's all fine and good, but how long is it going to take to establish a 2" deep coal bed across the grate?  You can accomplish the same thing a heck of a lot faster by raking the coals toward that throat opening they mention.  If you have a big bed of coals later, you don't need to mess with the coals, just reload and close the bypass.  If the fire has really died down, I rake ash away from the throat opening and fresh coals toward the opening before reloads.  This works well.  And again hating to sound like broken record, but all of this info could be useful if it were in the owners manual.


----------



## cmcramer

tradergordo -

It sounds like the 'rake the coals' technique is to help the subsequent load of wood to burn HOT enough and properly engage the Everburn once the damper is closed.. Is this right?

I have the opposite issue - too hot!


----------



## tradergordo

BeGreen said:
			
		

> This doesn't explain the high stack temps. In the video the stack thermometer is about 18" above the stove. A thousand degrees seems really high to me. Isn't that a lot of heat being wasted by going up the stack? Are these *stack* temps normal for all of this style stove? What are other owners seeing?



Don't know how much difference it makes, but I believe that thermometer is 14" above the stove top, which is slightly lower than the 18" recommended height (I think I read the instructions after drilling the hole  ).   In my particular case the high stack temp doesn't make much difference because I have a long single wall flue all inside the room (with vaulted ceiling) so I recapture a lot of the heat that would otherwise be wasted.  But for all I know it was designed the way it is for good draft and low creosote (this is probably one of the biggest trade offs woodstove engineers must deal with - the balance between heat exchange & draft).



			
				BeGreen said:
			
		

> Also, to my knowledge, the Quad Isle Royale does not use the same technology. From what I understand, although it too is a top loader, it should not be grouped with the VC, Lopi and Harman stoves. Its design preceeded these stoves and it does not get as hot in the rear of the stove. The Isle Royale has rear corner clearance of 6 inches. I can't corner install a VC, Lopi or Harman, but can install an IR. Can we get some reports on stack temps typical with the Isle Royale from Jags and Carpneil?



Isle Royale uses top mount burn tubes - totally different design.  You have to keep the flames going to get secondary combustion with that model of stove.  From the isle royale manual:
"The next stage of burning, the secondary stage, is the period
when the wood gives off flammable gases which burn above
the fuel with bright flames. During this stage of burning it is
very important that the flames be maintained and not allowed
to go out. This will ensure the cleanest possible fire. If you
are adjusting your stove for a low burn rate, you should
close down the air to the point where you can still maintain
some flame. If the flames tend to go out, the stove is set
too low for your burning conditions."


----------



## tradergordo

cmcramer said:
			
		

> tradergordo -
> 
> It sounds like the 'rake the coals' technique is to help the subsequent load of wood to burn HOT enough and properly engage the Everburn once the damper is closed.. Is this right?
> 
> I have the opposite issue - too hot!




First - yes, this does not apply to you at all, you have no problem getting secondary burn to work!  
To clarify the purpose of raking the coals toward the throat - this is to superheat the gasified wood (AKA smoke) before it hits the secondary combustion chamber, mixes with air and bursts into flame.  The bigger the coal bed around the throat opening, the easier it is to achive good secondary burn.  This is less important once you have a big coal bed established.


----------



## ansehnlich1

I've followed this entire thread, along with all other threads regarding Everburn Technology. I had stated in previous threads I would not purchase a stove with the Everburn Technology in it, and I remain convinced of this.

I have not sold wood stoves, nor have I any claim to any expertise regarding them, but I have a suggestion for wood stove manufacturers......

Make a stove that

1. burns wood

2. heats a home

3. is easy to work


----------



## elkimmeg

The raking the coals also does this it removes the ash and fly ash that accumulates in the mix and it dropps down into the ash pan. You will receive a better burn without the ash inbetween the coals

 Anioyther thing that happens over time is bark and  falls off the logs insertyed in the top and at times deposits on the griddle top gasket when that happens the seal is not as good from time to time I take a soft paint bursh and clean it off naturaslly at 500 degrees to not attempt cleaning it I anso find ash accumulates on the bottom front doors again with a soft pain brush I  gently sweep them.. I agree the manuals could do a lot better job od haw the stove runs and how to opperate it. This is also partly the responsibility of the retailer dealer and his installer to take the time to explain how to opperate the stove.  Trader any way to post that info I gave you about the horrizontal burn mode  with the diagrams of how the smoke and air parth are designed you know the first 8 pages of the older VC manual   

 Idealy the coals are stirred to remove the ash and piled over the everburn shoe so the air is drawn threw the real hot coals  threw being better than over them  and also remove tha sah so it too isn m not drawn in with the air fly ash reduces preformance


----------



## Highbeam

ansehnlich1 said:
			
		

> I've followed this entire thread, along with all other threads regarding Everburn Technology. I had stated in previous threads I would not purchase a stove with the Everburn Technology in it, and I remain convinced of this.
> 
> I have not sold wood stoves, nor have I any claim to any expertise regarding them, but I have a suggestion for wood stove manufacturers......
> 
> Make a stove that
> 
> 1. burns wood
> 
> 2. heats a home
> 
> 3. is easy to work



I agree, maybe these super fancy technology stoves are not for me. Plane old non-cat looks much simpler for the 24/7 burner. It's hard enough to prepare firewood, light the fires, feed the stove, and regulate the temperature without screwing around with these extra features. I like long burns, I like clean emmisions, and I like efficiency but cripes, does the typical wood burner want to babysit the heck out their stoves all the time? Making the operation of burning wood too complicated will surely backfire.


----------



## TMonter

With the amount of problems users seem to be having with the Everburn technology, it makes me wonder why VC has hung onto it. There are a lot of other non-cat stoves out there that  are not temperamental and don't have the issues this line seems to have. 

Maybe it's just me but it sounds like the VC non-cat technology in this stove is encumbered by too many variables to ever work right without tons of fiddling.

If VC doesn't make a solid effort to resolve the issue here, I can't see how I could ever recommend one of their stoves to anyone.


----------



## tradergordo

elkimmeg said:
			
		

> Trader any way to post that info I gave you about the horrizontal burn mode  with the diagrams of how the smoke and air parth are designed you know the first 8 pages of the older VC manual



That manual is unfortunatly just a graphical scan, I could convert it to text electronically for posting, but its easier to send people to the link instead.  If you are interested in:
"Economics and Efficient Combustion, The How and Why" and "Fuel Limiting" which covers the "horizontal combustion" concept and the "magazine system" concept, its on page 4 of the document linked above.

As for the ribbing on Vermont Castings - I like to be scientific about things and honestly because I have not owned any other stove, I can't compare apples to apples.  Having said that, I see complaints from users of every manufacturer - just go to the hearth.com review engine and see for yourself.  From what I've been able to determine, every stove has its quirks, you have to learn how to operate it with experience.  And sometimes a stove might have a defect, or an installation might have problems.  There are different stoves for different people, I think like with anything, its a matter of trade offs.  Simplicity might come at a cost (which could be shorter burn times, greater emissions, etc.)  

I've gotten pretty used to operating my stove and I'm comfortable with it now, I also appreciate what it is capable of, I think it does a very good job of heating my house and burning efficiently.  I don't know how other models would compare, but I have my reservations about "burn tube" style stoves which seem very popular today, and the catalytic models which seem to have more complaints than any other designs in general despite the very big praises they get from some owners.  Also I think some people are not very objective when commenting on their own stoves so I don't know what to believe.  I guess in the absense of a serious independent review (like "consumer reports") the only person I really trust is myself - boy would I love to try about 10 different stoves in my own house under as nearly identical conditions as possible... but that's never going to happen.  I think its interesting to note that the ONE person so far here who traded his everburn (Dutchwest) stove back in for another model ended up getting a stove that some other person apparently didn't like and traded back to the shop, and the traded in dutchwest went to some other guy who was looking for a used one. 

A handful of people complaining about a stove doesn't necesarily mean that stove is garbage, if they sold 100,000 units and 1% have complaints, that's 1000 unhappy people - maybe not so good, but is it different for other stove companies (again go read the reviews on hearth.com)?  I don't know.  I had a gasket problem with my stove initially, if this same problem impacted many units, then you could have a lot of overfiring stoves out there... in my case I caught the problem immediately and fixed it, but that's because it was obvious, might not be so obvious in other instances.  The fact that there are absolutely no operating temperatures listed in the manual doesn't help people who want to know if they are overfiring their stove.

I'm not ready to write VC off, but they obviously need to do a better job of training their dealers and writing their manuals.  Owners (and Dealers) need to be proactive in looking for potential problems, especially with a new install, and addressing concerns quickly.  Of course it doesn't help if there is a problem and VC is brushing it aside.  I too think they should participate in this forum - its probably the best way for them to sell stoves anyway - basically free advertising, so their absence certainly doesn't win them any points.


----------



## pmacleay

Vermont Casting/DutchWest Stoves has thousands of Everburn units in the field with very few warranty issues.  It does sound like your stove is burning hot.  I would suggest conducting the “dollar bill” test on the door and ash door gaskets.  Pinch a dollar bill between the door and the gasket, close the door completely and pull the dollar bill out. The dollar bill should resist being pulled out but come out without tearing. Try this every few inches all the way around each of the doors. If you find lose gasket seals the door should be adjusted.  You can do this by adjusting the handle pawl or the hinge pins or both.  If you are not comfortable adjusting the doors call your dealer and have him/her adjust the doors. It is very unlikely that the gasketed joint assembly found on Everburn units is leaking. Vermont Castings leak test 100% of their stoves at final assemble. Another place to look would be the primary flap.  Open both doors and reach a finger up between the primary air manifold and the inside of the front of the stove.  Open and close the primary air lever.  You will feel the flap opening and closing.  When the flap is closed it should lie flat on the manifold with no gaps.  It is possible for a piece of debris to keep it from closing completely. Don’t hesitate to call the customer service number for help.  Vermont Castings is very concerned about satisfaction of their customers.


----------



## elkimmeg

See Vermont casting is watching and monitoring our forum. I know as I was on the other end directing, the manager of engineering to this site ,reviewing this post, while being on the phone with him.  They are reviewing what is said here. Its late Friday so not much more will be done today. It will be looked into.

 Vermont  thanks and welcome aboard Hearth.net  Its great to see your company presensce here


----------



## Roospike

This is what "I" would do ..........

Call your dealer and have the dealer address the issue(S) of the everburn , stove , install and let them trouble shoot any issues and problems. 

If the issues and problems can not be addressed and fixed by your local dealer .........................

***GET A DIFFERENT MODEL and or GET A DIFFERENT STOVE******

With all these threads and pages of post of issues on the Everburn stoves its obviously not an issue that is going to be fixed here , if the issue is just a small QC problem or its the stove design let the dealer find out the problem otherwise go a different direction. 

Just my o2¢


----------



## Gooserider

While on the topic of manual problems, I've spotted another issue that could cause a problem.  This is one where VC isn't the only offender - I've got a downloaded Hearthstone Heritage manual with the same issue  It is also possible that I'm misunderstanding the code, if so I think there's a possible clarity issue with the code.

We all see frequent reference to the "2-3-10" rule about chimney height.  My understanding is that the height measurment is to the top of the flue exit where the smoke comes out, and does NOT include the cap.  To me this just seems intuitive as one could otherwise have a chimney with a low exit and a tall cap...  

However of the FIVE VC manuals I have, THREE show a chimney with what looks like a cap on it, with the dimension line drawn to the top of the cap.  Two have a truncated cone like object that is included in the dimension.  The Hearthstone manual is worse however - in other pictures that use the same style of chimney the top peice is specifically labeled "chimney cap" - and the dimension lines go to the top of the cap screen and don't include the "roof" of the cap.

It would seem to me like they could come up with a clearer drawing, or possibly include one additional sentence in the blurb on the rule such as "These dimensions are to the top of the chimney only, and do not include any chimney cap."

 Gooserider


----------



## Gunner

cmcramer said:
			
		

> Surface temp when re-loading = 500-600
> Surface Temp when glowing = 600-650
> 
> These are approximate, taken with a new $12 thermometer. The surface stove temp is definitely below the 700+ range, that's for sure, when 'blood red' glowing happens.
> 
> Now, this condition does not happen every time. It seems that I can avoid it by letting the stove burn down a little longer before refueling, or by adding only half a load of new wood. But I don't want to run my stove like that!



Bottom line nothing should be glowing with a 650* stovetop.

No stove should take this much fiddle farting around to operate properly.


----------



## MountainStoveGuy

Gooserider said:
			
		

> While on the topic of manual problems, I've spotted another issue that could cause a problem.  This is one where VC isn't the only offender - I've got a downloaded Hearthstone Heritage manual with the same issue  It is also possible that I'm misunderstanding the code, if so I think there's a possible clarity issue with the code.
> 
> We all see frequent reference to the "2-3-10" rule about chimney height.  My understanding is that the height measurment is to the top of the flue exit where the smoke comes out, and does NOT include the cap.  To me this just seems intuitive as one could otherwise have a chimney with a low exit and a tall cap...
> 
> However of the FIVE VC manuals I have, THREE show a chimney with what looks like a cap on it, with the dimension line drawn to the top of the cap.  Two have a truncated cone like object that is included in the dimension.  The Hearthstone manual is worse however - in other pictures that use the same style of chimney the top peice is specifically labeled "chimney cap" - and the dimension lines go to the top of the cap screen and don't include the "roof" of the cap.
> 
> It would seem to me like they could come up with a clearer drawing, or possibly include one additional sentence in the blurb on the rule such as "These dimensions are to the top of the chimney only, and do not include any chimney cap."
> 
> Gooserider



I dont look at manuals when i sell chimneys, mabey i should. when i address the 10/2/3 rule i use the pipe only, before the cap is installed. that rule is used to prevent downdrafting eddies of of other roof structures, so if the top of the cap is in that envelope, i would say thats bad. As elk likes to say, better safe then sorry.


----------



## cmcramer

Vermont wrote


> I would suggest conducting the “dollar bill” test on the door and ash door gaskets.  Pinch a dollar bill between the door and the gasket, close the door completely and pull the dollar bill out. The dollar bill should resist being pulled out but come out without tearing. Try this every few inches all the way around each of the doors. If you find lose gasket seals the door should be adjusted.  You can do this by adjusting the handle pawl or the hinge pins or both.



Will do -  tomorrow morning when stove cools. 



> If you are not comfortable adjusting the doors call your dealer and have him/her adjust the doors.



I've owned two other VC stoves - I can do this, too.



> Vermont Castings leak test 100% of their stoves at final assemble.



Hmmm. I guess I'm being asked to do a gasket leak Quality Control check ........on VC's gasket leak Quality Control check. I will, because I want a properly fuctioning woodstove.



> Another place to look would be the primary flap.  Open both doors and reach a finger up between the primary air manifold and the inside of the front of the stove.  Open and close the primary air lever.  You will feel the flap opening and closing.  When the flap is closed it should lie flat on the manifold with no gaps.  It is possible for a piece of debris to keep it from closing completely.



Will do.



> Don’t hesitate to call the customer service number for help.



*I did.* CFM/VC rep just gave me the John Davidson line: "Not a real problem, Sir, if it happens now and then."



> Vermont Castings is very concerned about satisfaction of their customers.



Glad to have you on this forum, Vermont.  And right now ...... I am a long time Vermont Casting owner who is not satisfied with his new stove, but willing to work with you to resolve this issue.

In other news: I do not even have to 'overload' my stove to get a glowing red condition! Today I *half-filled *the burn chamber with hardwoods and it glowed red.  

Stay tuned for my leak test results. 

And thanks to all.


----------



## MountainStoveGuy

no way in hell would i sell a stove knowing its going on a 30' chimney without a damper. No way. No damper no sale. Granted you might have a leak, but IMO i think its overdrafting like a mother...


----------



## Gunner

MountainStoveGuy said:
			
		

> no way in hell would i sell a stove knowing its going on a 30' chimney without a damper. No way. No damper no sale. Granted you might have a leak, but IMO i think its overdrafting like a mother...



I would have to agree, but he says the stovetop temps are less than 700 when glowing. What gives? He also asked VC about the damper they said NO WAY.????


----------



## MountainStoveGuy

thats because off all the fresh air rushing over the damper, cooling the top surface, and the everburn is in the back cranking at 200% capacity. I think that it was a bad move for VC to recommend not putting a damper in. If it were my stove, i would try it.


----------



## elkimmeg

Gunner I working diligently in getting the first representation of a manufacturer to address issues on out board  this is a giant step forward. There are alternative solutions for each owner with overburn stoves agreeable to them and VC. But the popost has become bigger that these two IT VC stepping up to the plate here. 

 MSG I agree sounds like overdraft. Aslo  it would not be the first $10 stove top thermo that read incorrrectly I got 4 here you can have cheap.  That's why I monitor the stoves with 2 each

Gunner where was PE to slove the guy in NY that could not produce heat in his PE summit. IF you remember correctly I had a hand in getting that resolved Not PE

 This may be a good thing Hearth,net got reconized today  by the largest manufacture of hearth products in America Hopefully we can attract some of the other major players


----------



## MountainStoveGuy

Put a damper in, i will send you a 10lb sack of fat wood free of charge if im wrong.


----------



## Gunner

I see...Didn't think there was enough air at the top to keep temps lower with the air completely shut down.  Were does the primary air enter?


----------



## MountainStoveGuy

the secondary combustion system is where its entering, which is not controllable by any leaver. (at leasnt not in any secondary combustion stove i have ever seen)


----------



## Gunner

elkimmeg said:
			
		

> Gunner I working diligently in getting the first representation of a manufacturer to address issues on out board  this is a giant step forward. There are alternative solutions for each owner with overburn stoves agreeable to them and VC. But the popost has become bigger that these two IT VC stepping up to the plate here.
> 
> MSG I agree sounds like overdraft. Aslo  it would not be the first $10 stove top thermo that read incorrrectly I got 4 here you can have cheap.  That's why I monitor the stoves with 2 each
> 
> Gunner where was PE to slove the guy in NY that could not produce heat in his PE summit. IF you remember correctly I had a hand in getting that resolved Not PE
> 
> This may be a good thing Hearth,net got reconized today  by the largest manufacture of hearth products in America Hopefully we can attract some of the other major players



What is your point? I can't ask questions because someone named vermont is stepping up to the plate?

What does one *incorrectly* installed summit have to do with this thread?  Nobody from PE wrote him a letter saying it wasn't supposed to produce heat!

Chill Elkmiester


----------



## MountainStoveGuy

So, to clarify my theroy, once you shut down the primary air, it forces all the air to be pulled through the secondary combustion system, which in a overdraft situation pulls to much air through the stove making hot spots. All the air rushes through the system, making the air rush throgh the back of the stove over fireing where the gasses are and rushing over the baffle in the top, bringing the temp down (or the rear exit without a baffle sucking all the heat out of the stove). Making the top burn cool or normal, and the back glow red. Other symptoms of overdraft are short burn times, and lack of control of the primary air lever. 
I challenge VC's recomendation of no damper. This is like the classic overdraft situation, which can ONLY be controled by a damper or a catalytic stove.


----------



## elkimmeg

Really I shiould have gone back and read the post over. He has a 30' straight shot chimney?  the more and more I think about it I agree with MSG Overdraft.

 most hardware stores have in line dampers for single wall pipe. Your stove would not be the first one that required that extra draft control  especially 30'
 If this is the case,  then almost every modern stove would exhibit simmilar symptons. Many an inline damper have solve simmilar over draft issues in Jotuls.


----------



## MountainStoveGuy

it took me a good hour to read this thread today, i even got yelled at by the boss for spending to much hearthnet time...


----------



## elkimmeg

Gunner said:
			
		

> elkimmeg said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gunner I working diligently in getting the first representation of a manufacturer to address issues on out board  this is a giant step forward. There are alternative solutions for each owner with overburn stoves agreeable to them and VC. But the popost has become bigger that these two IT VC stepping up to the plate here.
> 
> MSG I agree sounds like overdraft. Aslo  it would not be the first $10 stove top thermo that read incorrrectly I got 4 here you can have cheap.  That's why I monitor the stoves with 2 each
> 
> Gunner where was PE to slove the guy in NY that could not produce heat in his PE summit. IF you remember correctly I had a hand in getting that resolved Not PE
> 
> This may be a good thing Hearth,net got reconized today  by the largest manufacture of hearth products in America Hopefully we can attract some of the other major players
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is your point? I can't ask questions because someone named vermont is stepping up to the plate?
> 
> What does one *incorrectly* installed summit have to do with this thread?  Nobody from PE wrote him a letter saying it wasn't supposed to produce heat!
> 
> Chill Elkmiester
Click to expand...


you are right I over reacted sorry.   Its took a lot of convincing to get  Vermont here. I think that is a major step  that we members of the hearth are being heard. I don't want to discourage but encourage it,  attracting other manufactures to  participate.  I  did a poor job of expressing this point


----------



## Gunner

No worries Elk :coolsmile:


----------



## MountainStoveGuy

My offer was serious on page 8, but if you buy one of these it will tell the tale. I would bet my first born you are pulling more then 1" on the watercolum (which would peg this instrument).


----------



## cmcramer

As soon as VC recommends a damper - I'll do it.


----------



## MountainStoveGuy

thats silly, the chimney and the stove are two seperate devices. Let the stove manufacture recomend fixes for there stove, and let chimney experts tell you what wrong with your chimney. I dont think there is anything wrong with your stove, i think you have a bad installation. Buy a draft meter, then no ones opinion matters, those things dont lie, whats another $40 when you have $2k invested. Or even better, go buy a $6 damper and just install it.

put a quad, or a jotul, or a hearthstone, or a PE... ect on your 30' chimney and you will get the same result.


----------



## Gooserider

MountainStoveGuy said:
			
		

> Gooserider said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While on the topic of manual problems, I've spotted another issue that could cause a problem.  This is one where VC isn't the only offender - I've got a downloaded Hearthstone Heritage manual with the same issue  It is also possible that I'm misunderstanding the code, if so I think there's a possible clarity issue with the code.
> 
> We all see frequent reference to the "2-3-10" rule about chimney height.  My understanding is that the height measurment is to the top of the flue exit where the smoke comes out, and does NOT include the cap.  To me this just seems intuitive as one could otherwise have a chimney with a low exit and a tall cap...
> 
> However of the FIVE VC manuals I have, THREE show a chimney with what looks like a cap on it, with the dimension line drawn to the top of the cap.  Two have a truncated cone like object that is included in the dimension.  The Hearthstone manual is worse however - in other pictures that use the same style of chimney the top peice is specifically labeled "chimney cap" - and the dimension lines go to the top of the cap screen and don't include the "roof" of the cap.
> 
> It would seem to me like they could come up with a clearer drawing, or possibly include one additional sentence in the blurb on the rule such as "These dimensions are to the top of the chimney only, and do not include any chimney cap."
> 
> Gooserider
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I dont look at manuals when i sell chimneys, mabey i should. when i address the 10/2/3 rule i use the pipe only, before the cap is installed. that rule is used to prevent downdrafting eddies of of other roof structures, so if the top of the cap is in that envelope, i would say thats bad. As elk likes to say, better safe then sorry.
Click to expand...


The way you do it is the way that sounds right to me, and I can understand not looking at manuals (beyond maybe an occasional skim) if you already know what the rules are.  My concern would be for the person that doesn't have your background and just goes with what the manual shows in good faith...  IMHO this is even more questionable than my earlier issue about the questionable website customer install photos, as this is something that is clearly put out by the company in an "official document".  

I don't have a great deal of sympathy for someone that does something the manual says not to, but I do when the manual gives ambiguous or wrong info, or leaves things out.  IMHO if you are going to provide info you should either do a complete job of it, or say "this product intended for professional installation only" and leave out the "How to DIY" info.  Don't tell people how to DIY, but leave out stuff that only a pro might be reasonably expected to know.

 Gooserider


----------



## MountainStoveGuy

agreed there goose.
hopefully the DIY also reads the pipe installation manual, every one i have ever seen tells you to measure to the bottom of the cap.


----------



## MountainStoveGuy

here is a similar story for you.
My good freind Jim, bought a rais 86 stove from me. He is the type that more is better in any scenario. I helped him install the chimney. He decided on a 20' chimney in a top level in his home. Upstaris of homes are always positivly pressured and they dont need as much chimney as a main level or basement level stove. I tried to tell him this but he is pretty hard headed.
So most friday nights i go over there and talk about aquariums and what not, and every friday night the stove has red spots all over it. He is overfiring this stove almost every time he uses it..(and proud of his red spots, "thats a darn hot fire huh")  finally the last big snow storm took a 4' section of his pipe off, a few weeks ago he came in to the shop to tell me that his stove no longer glows, and is burning longer, but his chimney is gone and wants to buy more. He didnt see the correlation of what just happend. So now, he is on short pipe and loving life. His stove burns longer, and puts out more heat because of proper draft. The equivelent of a shorter chimney is installing a damper on a tall chimney. It reduces draft.
His chimney actually blew off with wind, his install was in a existing wood chase that he had 4' and a 2' section sticking out. Now he doenst meet the 10/2/3 rule, but it works. he needs to buy a extra foot to make it leagle, but that will have to wait untill spring.


----------



## elkimmeg

Gooserider said:
			
		

> MountainStoveGuy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gooserider said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While on the topic of manual problems, I've spotted another issue that could cause a problem.  This is one where VC isn't the only offender - I've got a downloaded Hearthstone Heritage manual with the same issue  It is also possible that I'm misunderstanding the code, if so I think there's a possible clarity issue with the code.
> 
> We all see frequent reference to the "2-3-10" rule about chimney height.  My understanding is that the height measurment is to the top of the flue exit where the smoke comes out, and does NOT include the cap.  To me this just seems intuitive as one could otherwise have a chimney with a low exit and a tall cap...
> 
> However of the FIVE VC manuals I have, THREE show a chimney with what looks like a cap on it, with the dimension line drawn to the top of the cap.  Two have a truncated cone like object that is included in the dimension.  The Hearthstone manual is worse however - in other pictures that use the same style of chimney the top peice is specifically labeled "chimney cap" - and the dimension lines go to the top of the cap screen and don't include the "roof" of the cap.
> 
> It would seem to me like they could come up with a clearer drawing, or possibly include one additional sentence in the blurb on the rule such as "These dimensions are to the top of the chimney only, and do not include any chimney cap."
> 
> Gooserider
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I dont look at manuals when i sell chimneys, mabey i should. when i address the 10/2/3 rule i use the pipe only, before the cap is installed. that rule is used to prevent downdrafting eddies of of other roof structures, so if the top of the cap is in that envelope, i would say thats bad. As elk likes to say, better safe then sorry.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The way you do it is the way that sounds right to me, and I can understand not looking at manuals (beyond maybe an occasional skim) if you already know what the rules are.  My concern would be for the person that doesn't have your background and just goes with what the manual shows in good faith...  IMHO this is even more questionable than my earlier issue about the questionable website customer install photos, as this is something that is clearly put out by the company in an "official document".
> 
> I don't have a great deal of sympathy for someone that does something the manual says not to, but I do when the manual gives ambiguous or wrong info, or leaves things out.  IMHO if you are going to provide info you should either do a complete job of it, or say "this product intended for professional installation only" and leave out the "How to DIY" info.  Don't tell people how to DIY, but leave out stuff that only a pro might be reasonably expected to know.
> 
> Gooserider
Click to expand...



 Goose this is addressed on the first page of the manual Have you given  any thought the installation instructions are not for the Diy but to  serve as guidelines for the professional and It assumes that the professional does not need hand hloding First page of the manual clearly states this in a highlighted box

 We recommend our wood burning product be installed and serviced by professionals
 Who are certified in US. By the National Fire Institute ( NFI) as NFI wood burning Specialist


----------



## begreen

Wow, leave for a day and this place gets cooking hot. 

First, let me thank Vermont for stepping in. Welcome. 

Second, cmcramer, try a draft damper. It can make a very big difference. I wouldn't have been able to run our old 602 without one, it would have overfired constantly. (Actually it did for the former owner, that's why I had to rebuild it.) Part of the problem when there are a lot of different thoughts and then different folks with different or related problems joining in a thread is that one loses focus on the core issue. Kudos to MSG for sifting through the posts to find the 30' chimney. 

From the Harman Oakwood manual:
*Signs of an overdraft*
include rapid fuel consumption, inability to slow the fire,
and *parts of the stove or chimney connector glowing red*.
It is important that you follow the chimney guidelines in
this manual, including size, type, and height to avoid draft
problems.

Here's a couple links on the symptoms of overdraft. Sound familiar?
http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hoxdraft.htm
http://www.epa.gov/ttn/chief/ap42/ch01/related/woodstoveapp.pdf (pg A20)


----------



## Gooserider

Elk, I've seen that box, but if that was really the audience they were writing the info in the manual for, I would not expect to see most of the stuff that I see in there.  The pro shouldn't need any kind of picture, or comment on the 2-3-10 rule, or all the details about how to make an approved wall pass-through, or notes about putting three screws in a pipe joint, etc., etc, for about 8 out of the 14 pages on installation in the manual.  Indeed, if I were a "Pro" I'd be mildly annoyed at having to dig through all those pages of standard code for all stoves info in order to find the specific information for the stove I was installing...

A pro should already know how to install a chimney, or make sure an existing chimney is suitable.
A pro should already know how to connect single wall pipe.
A pro should already know how to determine if a chimney is the right size
A pro should already know how to make a pass through for a combustible wall
A pro should already know how to make a wall shield
A pro should already know how to make floor protector and how to choose materials for one.


The pro should only need the info specific to the stove in question

Clearance requirements (with and w/o added shields)
Flue diameter
Clearances for pipes, and other exceptions from usual code specs
Floor protector R-value required, and dimensions

If I were writing the manual ONLY to be used by a pro who already knew the relevant codes (part of definition of "pro" that many fail to meet) then I could probably condense the material that VC spends 14 pages on down to five or six....

However, as is we get a manual full of info that the pro shouldn't need, but that is just enough to get a DIY in trouble.  We also get botched "Pro" installs, and in at least some cases, botched inspections of those pro installs....

It sort of reminds me some ways of an article I saw a while back on Kosher foods - There are apparently two Kosher certifications one can get, one is issued by the State Gov't of New York by inspectors that may or may not even be Jewish (and don't ask me what business a state gov't has enforcing a religious standard) and the other is an actual Rabbinical seal issued by a Rabbi in accordance with all the applicable rules of the religion (I'm not Jewish, don't ask me for the details...)  The NYS gov't claims their seal is a "fraud prevention" to keep places from claiming to be kosher that aren't.  However it is worth noting that just about all the NYS producers of Kosher foods find it is worth their while to voluntarily go to the extra effort to get the rabbinical seal in addition to the NYS seal that they have to get in order to say "its Kosher"  Further, according to the article, most Jewish folks that are really serious about keeping kosher tend to ignore the NYS seal and look for the rabbinical one.  (It's been a while, and I forget the details, but that was the main idea)

I kind of feel the same way about a gov't inspection - it does not make me feel any safer about the job.  However if there were a good PRIVATE certification agency, I'd be more inclined to trust their approval.

Gooserider


Gooserider


----------



## Roospike

elkimmeg said:
			
		

> Gunner I working diligently in getting the first representation of a manufacturer to address issues on out board this is a giant step forward. There are alternative solutions for each owner with overburn stoves agreeable to them and VC. But the popost has become bigger that these two IT VC stepping up to the plate here.
> 
> MSG I agree sounds like overdraft. Aslo it would not be the first $10 stove top thermo that read incorrrectly I got 4 here you can have cheap. That's why I monitor the stoves with 2 each
> 
> *Gunner where was PE to slove the guy in NY that could not produce heat in his PE summit. IF you remember correctly I had a hand in getting that resolved Not PE*
> 
> 
> This may be a good thing Hearth,net got reconized today by the largest manufacture of hearth
> products in America Hopefully we can attract some of the other major players



Now lets see ........

There was about 5 Pacific Energy stove owners on that thread.

Tom Oyen from chinmeysweep on line , on line sales and Pacific Energy dealer. President / CEO 
http://chimneysweeponline.com/emptom.htm

Jack Cohen, Pacific Energy distributor .
Vice President Bac Sales 
jack@bacsales.com 
518 828 6363 ext 240 

The local Pacific Energy dealerthat sold the stove.

THE Pacific Energy manufacture/ company was called and input was given.
http://www.pacificenergy.net/support.html

And it was an install issue over heat distribution of the fireplace and not a safety issue or manufacture defect of the stove. ( or glowing red )

I think that thread and stove was well covered with Pacific Energy dealers , distributors and the company. 

And YES there was a pro inspector on the case that went above and beyond. ;-)


----------



## TMonter

Just a comment on the "recommended chimney height" in the manual. The reason it's recommended and not a hard and fast rule is that every chimney is different. When I installed my 3100i Quad, the stove vendor told me I didn't have enough chimney. 

I dropped my manometer on the pipe and showed him at room temp it drafted at 0.25 inches with no heat, this was because I did a complete reline with insulation. I only have 12' of chimney which is far less than I got recommended.

There is no standard for chimney height in the regulations, but you should have enough draft to operate your stove.

Just because someone is a professional installer or inspector does not mean that they are automatically right.



> I kind of feel the same way about a gov’t inspection - it does not make me feel any safer about the job.  However if there were a good PRIVATE certification agency, I’d be more inclined to trust their approval.



Heh, why do you think boilers follow ASME rather than US government codes? I agree Goose, government oversight does not mean it's correct or safe.


----------



## cmcramer

Dollar bill test shows all gaskets to be tight. Can't say that I can locate the primary air flap to check for debris that may be hanging it up in an open position - where the heck is it?

OK. You Pro guys have convinced me, I think.  I'm off to buy a damper and a gizmo to measure the draft. ('air velocity meter'?)

*Manual Damper  OR  Barometric??*

Also note that the www.chimneysweep.com article about overdraft that was recommended to me included this:



> Note: if you attempt to reduce your chimney updraft with either type of damper, you do so at your own risk. Only a few of the woodstove manufacturers we know of recommend the use of stovepipe dampers, and then only in cases of extreme overdrafting: many specifically forbid their use



Does VC "forbid" their use?  The VC call center guy reading off his computer screen definitely said, with emphasis, "We get asked that a lot, and NO!  No damper."  

Will installing a damper void my warranty, Mr. Vermont?


----------



## cmcramer

Found the primary air flap - it's free and clear.


----------



## MountainStoveGuy

Looking at exclusion #2 on page 36 of your manual, you have already voided your warrenty because a manufacture told you not to install a damper on a chimney that has to much draft (not in the manual, VIA email). The warrenty for your stove SPECIFICLY calls out peeling paint as a sign of overfiring, and overfiring voids the warrenty.
I have NEVER herd of a damper voiding any warrenty, or any manufacture saying its use will void a warrenty.


----------



## Corie

Yeah that is pretty odd.  Imagine you had the stove hook up to a chimney with 30 something feet of height.  There is no WAY you could get by without a damper in that case either, but the manufacturer forbids it.  It just doesn't make much sense on devices that we know are all something sensitive to draft.


----------



## Gunner

cmcramer,
what was you previous stove and how did it perform?


----------



## cmcramer

> what was you previous stove and how did it perform?



My VC Resolute, from late 1970's, ran fine! I could engage the damper and close the air intakes to control any fire.


----------



## MountainStoveGuy

thats because it wasnt a reburner. you had full air control in your old stove.


----------



## Gooserider

cmcramer said:
			
		

> Dollar bill test shows all gaskets to be tight. Can't say that I can locate the primary air flap to check for debris that may be hanging it up in an open position - where the heck is it?
> 
> OK. You Pro guys have convinced me, I think.  I'm off to buy a damper and a gizmo to measure the draft. ('air velocity meter'?)
> 
> *Manual Damper  OR  Barometric??*
> 
> Also note that the www.chimneysweep.com article about overdraft that was recommended to me included this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Note: if you attempt to reduce your chimney updraft with either type of damper, you do so at your own risk. Only a few of the woodstove manufacturers we know of recommend the use of stovepipe dampers, and then only in cases of extreme overdrafting: many specifically forbid their use
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does VC "forbid" their use?  The VC call center guy reading off his computer screen definitely said, with emphasis, "We get asked that a lot, and NO!  No damper."
> 
> Will installing a damper void my warranty, Mr. Vermont?
Click to expand...


I would go for an inline manual damper.  I know that some use barometric dampers with woodstoves, but I don't think they are compatible.  The two have different operating concepts, and I think the manual model fits the way a woodstove operates better.

A barometric damper works on the idea of not restricting the draft, but rather drawing part of the air from outside the stove.  To me this raises several problems - 
1. The added cold air will cool the gasses in the flue, leading to creosote buildup - note how almost everything else we do to our chimneys has the partial objective of keeping those gasses warm....
2. Where does that extra air come from? I'd rather not be pulling heated air out of my house to send up the chimney.
3. It only slows the air flow through the stove as a secondary effect of dividing the gas flow.

The manual damper works by changing the effective cross section of the flue, thus restricting and slowing the gasses.  It doesn't cause cooling, so it shouldn't cause an added creosote problem, and it doesn't pull any heated air out of the house.  Since the pressure differential driving everything is still present, I'd expect the gasses getting past the damper to even move a bit faster, which is a good thing.

I would go with a manual damper in the first section of pipe after the flue exit.

As to the warrantee, I would expect that it shouldn't have any effect since all you are really doing is changing the gas flow through the stove in the same way that changing the chimney height would.  Thus you might potentially decrease the draft below a safe amount (probably the reason the stove mfgrs are worried about it) but shouldn't be able to do anything that would actually damage the stove.

My guess is that the reason the stove mfgrs don't want you using flue dampers is twofold...  Both reasons relate to the question of what happens if you misuse one and they had "reccomended" it.  As long as they say "don't do that" then they are pretty much covered - "it's not our fault, we told them not to...."  They don't want the potential liability that could result if you cranked the damper down to far and gassed yourselves because the stove had no venting.  The other problem would be more with the gov't - the stove has been certified at a given emissions rating w/o the damper, using a certain flue size.  They probably can't advise you to install a device that could potentially cause the stove to burn in a less clean way.

Gooserider


----------



## cmcramer

Please remember that it 'twas www.chimneysweep.com that claimed some stove companies forbid dampers....not one humble and still learning cmcramer 


A manual damper goes in Sunday am. Testing soon to follow.


----------



## Gooserider

Just as a FWIW, Not all stove companies forbid manual dampers - Hearthstone quite clearly RECCOMENDS them for some chimneys in it's manual for the Heritage.  They suggest taking a draft reading at installation, and looking for a draft between 0.25" and 1.0" WC.  If the draft is over 1.0"WC they reccomend installing a manual damper.

FWIW, in light of the minimum chimney height discussions elsewhere, they also state REQUIRED heights, with a minimum of 13' and a maximum of 30', using the word "required" as opposed to VC's use of "recommended"

Gooserider


----------



## MountainStoveGuy

one thing i liked in the VC manual i read, was the graph for chimney hight and altitude. Your chimney is appropriate for a 11,000 foot altitude installation.. you would have to assume that the same chimney will act different at sea level or there would be no need for the graph.


----------



## begreen

I read through the VC manual which is excellent in many respects. Yet, although there is a section on draft, it never addresses overdraft. Like there is only poor draft and normal draft, but over draft doesn't exist. This seems to be a glaring omission considering overdraft can lead to overfiring which may void the warranty. It puts the owner in a Catch22 circumstance. As a comparison, the Harman Oakwood manual, for a very similarly designed stove, has a specific paragraph for overdraft conditions. Lopi doesn't have a specific section on draft like VC and Harman, but does include a separate paragraph on overfiring the stove:

Over-Firing the Stove
This stove was designed to operate at a high temperature. But due to differences in vent configuration,
fuel, and draft, this appliance can be operated at an excessive temperature. If the stove top *or other area
starts to glow red*, you are over-firing the stove. Shut the air control down to low and allow the stove to
cool before proceeding.


----------



## marc nichols

I have a VC Encore dealer installed in late November 2006. The thread is very interesting. My dealer rep is due out tomorrow for a second inspection. I don't know if my problem is the same, but I am unable to control stove top measured temp with the thermostate lever. In an updraft mode, I can easily get to 550 deg though I usually close the damper close to 500. From then on, the temp slowly decreases to around 390 or slightly lower with on a few quarter sections on hot coals. Changing the position of the thermostat and waiting 30-45 minutes has no discernable effect.

We are at 3000 ft altitude and have an double wall 8" chimney pipe (required for open door burning with VC screen in place). The chimney is @ 25' in height. The install manual has a graph for 6" chimneys buit nothing for 8" though I would think my local dealer understands needs here. I am burning year old oak that is probably not adequately cured and I would expect the stove to therefore be incapable of maximum efficiency and temperatures. But, I would expect some control. 

Does anyone have insight to this? Recommendations? What stove top temperature (RR corner is where I have been measuring) minimum and maximum would be typical? Does anyone have actual measurement ranges when in the efficiency mode and a reasonable load of wood aboard?

I just found this site. It's a wonderful resource.  

Thanks

marcn@wildblue.net


----------



## MountainStoveGuy

25' of 8", once hot, will pull twice as hard as 25' of 6". You problem sounds very similar to the original poster.
My guess on how your stove operates on 8 inch would be something like this.
Load the fireplace, start up should be difficult. 
One the draft is established, your intial load of wood burns up within the hour. 
you reload the stove, turn it down, and the second load of wood burns up in a hour or two. There would not be much noticable difference betwee the air wide open and the air shut down.
If this sounds like you, your loosing lots of efficiency, and your stove is overdrafting. Do you have access to a flow meter to check draft?


----------



## cmcramer

Hey MountainStoveGuy: You don’t have to send me that free kindling. Plus, I’m telling everyone I see today that you’re the smartest stove guy I know…

Installed manual damper 20” from flue collar. Left it oriented at ‘noon’, or 0 degrees. Wanted to see if this alone would have any effect. Started a fire.

Later, with surface temp up to 500 degrees and a good thick bed of hot coals, filled firebox to near capacity – but not quite - with maple. Primary air at lowest, Everburn engaged. After an hour, temp was 625 and part of the rear cast iron was glowing dull red. Glow lasted 20-30 minutes before subsiding. But only a part of the back glowed this time…..and a duller red than before.

Next re-load, surface at about 475 degrees, with damper now turned to about 30 degrees…or 1:00 on a clock dial. Two hours later, surface temp peaked at about 610, no red glow at all. 

These are preliminary findings, of course, from my first two real hot burn cycles. But it sure looks to me like the damper is reducing my DANG OVERDRAFT! I will continue to watch very carefully as this stove goes through its burn cycles over the next few days and weeks. I’ll be sure to report back on this thread.

Truth be told, I’d never even _heard _of ‘overdraft’ before this discussion. When I first bought a house/woodstove in early 80’s, all the discussion was about LACK of draft and how to get MORE. There’s a whole generation of woodstove owners ready to update their 20-30 year old stoves who will need to be educated about these new cat / non-cat stoves and their new requirements. Once I get the damper dialed in so that it prevents glowing red cast iron but does not prevent a good draft for fire starting and good hot burn cycles.....this non-cat stove will be just fine.

Side notes: (1) Everburn rumble much less noticeable with manual damper set at 30 degrees.  (2) Originally, I just estimated my chimney at 30 feet, not knowing this was critical. It’s actually 25-26 feet, if that make a difference.  

Now, about my warantee....and that pesky letter on CFM letterhead that says glowing red cast iron is not a problem.................

Thank you, again, to everyone who help me through this woodstove issue.


----------



## elkimmeg

MSG it appears  Marc has the opposite problem he is dampering down too quickly and not establishing that 2 to 3" bed of hot coals first His case is not over drafting but not estamlishing a good bed of coals and charing of the wood he is loosing ground after dampering.

 Marc  you have to wait longer  its ok to see 650 degrees before dampering down infact your manual warns of going above 750.
 The other key is to establish the bed of coals and rake them to around the everburn shoe center rear


----------



## marc nichols

I don't have access to a draft meter but perhaps the installer rep will have one with tomorrow. I'll try calling them first thing and suggest that. I just reloaded and left in updraft for 10 min. I moved the stove top thermometer reading 430 to the center just behind the top loading plate and it quickly went to 500 and a little. So, temps were generally higher than I thought. I closed the dmper and this time left the thermostat on full hi. After 15 min, the temp is up @20 deg but I'm sure things haven't normalized yet.

I had broached the idea of a damper with my installer several weeks ago. They were not adverse to installation but wanted me to try different loading and burning proceedures first which have been fruitless. After reading posts about VC's clear recommendation not to install a damper, I am concerned with warranty issues. IF this stove is overdrafting, I'm sure the damper would control that. However, I don't know what secondary effects it may have on the EBT combustion process and I can't measure what is going on at that level of the stove. 

Does anyone offer a thermometer that works on double wall pipe so that I can accurately measure exhaust temp?

This is my third wood stove and second VC. I'm really dissapointed. They should not be so fiddley to operate. If this thing is "normal" , it doesn't belong in a home. I can't say I'm a wiz at these things, but after years of operating them and being a trained firefighter by trade, one would think I have the basic understanding necessary for good judgement here.

20 minutes now and temp is 550. I'm going to try and throttle it back. Still have only a few pieces on a good bed of coals/

Again, thank you for any input on this thread.


----------



## marc nichols

per master of fire:

Apreciate your input but; my stove has been burning for @18 hours and has a very well established bed of coals. After reloading, the VC manual says " close the damper and set the air control lever for for the desired heat input" (this is after allowing the stove to regain thermal momentum) "when the surface temperature reaches 450 degrees F, adjust the air control for the amount of heat you desire. 

Please look at my most recent post for more detail. Accordingly, I fired well above VC recommendations for the system to operate properly when moved to the EBT mode.

As to stirring the coals, what would be the advantage of top loading if one must open the front anyway? And secondly, how would one do that efficiently with several pieces burning on top of the coals. And most importantly, why should this be necessary for the operation of something so intrinsically simple as a wood stove. If this is what a current VC non-cat requires, it is woefully under engineered and not customer friendly. 

I find it disconcerting that two knowledgeable people with the same info can arrive at such divergent conclusions. Wood stoves are not rocket science and should not become so. Unfortunately, I haven't figured this out either and here we are...


----------



## begreen

Marc said:
			
		

> Does anyone offer a thermometer that works on double wall pipe so that I can accurately measure exhaust temp?



I have the Condar 3-19 on my double wall stack.
http://www.condar.com/meters.html


----------



## MountainStoveGuy

i have a general rule of thumb, any chimney on a main level of a home, 20' and over should have a damper installed. The exceptions to this rule are catalytic stoves, and stoves installed in a low pressure area like a basement. Im pretty familer how a 25' 8 inch chimney works, i have one in my showroom. Noting i put on it works like its inteded without the use of a damper. Its not rocket sicene, but it is scientific, but with the unique nature of every install, its more like art.
does any of the sypmtoms i put forth in my last post apply to you?  
Mind you that my chimney setup here at the shop is at 5500' altitude, and it still pulls way to hard. 14'-16' is ideal hight at lower altitudes, and lower then 14 and you have to add pipe, any higher then 16' you might need to add a damper, and at 20' there is usually no question that a damper is needed. Once again, these are just generic rules that i use,  every installation is different.

CMC, im delighted that the damper worked for you. Happy burning!


----------



## elkimmeg

marc  Your manual recomends to  monitor center griddle top temps


----------



## BrotherBart

elkimmeg said:
			
		

> marc  Your manual recomends to  monitor center griddle top temps



His manual also says:

"Overfiring may cause a house fire, or can result in permanent damage
to the stove and to the catalytic combustor."

What is that all about?


----------



## elkimmeg

As to stirring the coals, what would be the advantage of top loading if one must open the front anyway? And secondly, how would one do that efficiently with several pieces burning on top of the coals. And most importantly, why should this be necessary for the operation of something so intrinsically simple as a wood stove. If this is what a current VC non-cat requires, it is woefully under engineered and not customer friendly.

 Marc I have the cat encore which still works simmilar to yours I use a poker or fireplace tool shovel  Stiring the coals removes the fly ash accumulation with in the coal bed mix  this fly ash actually acts as insulation between the coals .  The combintion about piling the coals infron of the everburn shoe, was told to me by the maneger of engineering at VC. 
Goose and I were both told this during the entire everburn demonstration.  When we did the plant opperations tour . 
 This information (  piling the coals around the everburn shoe has been posted numerous times here. 
 Smoke is drawn over the coals and super heated before it reaches the secondary combustion chamber threw  air is injected from the holes in the shoe further heating the smoke  as it passes into the  secondary combustion chamber.
 That is how the technology works.
Most stoves we are told to rake the pile to the front to enhance the airwash system, the Everburn stoves it is opposite to enhance the everburn secondary burning. 
It takes 1200 degrees for smoke to combust and  your hotest part of the srove is the active coal bed


----------



## elkimmeg

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> elkimmeg said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> marc  Your manual recomends to  monitor center griddle top temps
> 
> 
> 
> 
> His manual also says:
> 
> "Overfiring may cause a house fire, or can result in permanent damage
> to the stove and to the catalytic combustor."
> 
> What is that all about?
Click to expand...


 BB that disclaimer is part of almost every manual printed


----------



## BrotherBart

elkimmeg said:
			
		

> BrotherBart said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> elkimmeg said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> marc  Your manual recomends to  monitor center griddle top temps
> 
> 
> 
> 
> His manual also says:
> 
> "Overfiring may cause a house fire, or can result in permanent damage
> to the stove and to the catalytic combustor."
> 
> What is that all about?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> BB that disclaimer is part of almost every manual printed
Click to expand...


A statement about ruining the cat in a non-cat stove in almost every manual? I dun tink sooo Lucy.


----------



## elkimmeg

You have never seen one manual cover  more than one model appliance or tool?


----------



## Gooserider

elkimmeg said:
			
		

> You have never seen one manual cover  more than one model appliance or tool?



I have, but usually the manuals that cover multiple appliances SAY they are for multiple appliances, list the relevant numbers, and so forth...  This is presumably one of those proofreading "Thinko's" but the manual in question (I have hardcopy) SAYS on the front cover, Encore NON-Cat stove, model 1450, and nothing else, but also has the warning about damaging the cat that was quoted earlier - it's on the bottom of page 24, near the end of the operation section.  What I would suspect is that a lot of the text in the VC manuals is "boilerplate" that doesn't change much, and they missed fixing it here.

It's not a fatal error but it is sort of an amusing / embarassing one.  :red: 

Gooserider


----------



## MountainStoveGuy

i was hoping to see Vermont follow up with this thread...


----------



## cmcramer

*Me Too!*

You can be sure I will follow up with VC - in writing - as soon as I give my dealerthe 2-3 weeks he asked for so a VC Rep can contact me.  I believe an extended warrantee is called for here.


----------



## begreen

And perhaps a few replacement parts would be in order. 

Have you done a draft test yet with the manometer? What is the draft reading with the damper wide open? How far can you close the damper and yet still maintain good draft (.1")?


----------



## TMonter

The overdraft issue seems to be a glaring oversight on VC's part, but to be fair a lot of other manufacturers also seem to miss it. I know my Quadrafire 3100i manual says nothing about too much draft in the chimney.

Perhaps this is something we should ask all stove manufacturers to address in their manual.


----------



## cmcramer

BeGreen -

Does "manometer" = "air velocity meter" = " "draft guage" ??  I did not buy one, opting instead for manual damper with trial and error. So far, my fire has started fine and my 30 degree damper setting seems to stop my stove at just below glowing red. I'll continue trial and error until I have a good fell for damper settings.  

Based on MountainStoveGuy, Elk, and others....sounds like with 25 straight feet of 8 inch stainless chimney, lack of draft will not be a problem. So I am concentrating on the upper end: how much damper do I engage to eliminate glowing, but not alter other burn characteristics, like start-up.

In your opinion, what are the chances I have done permanent damage to my cast iron such that its life span will be significantly shortened? Let's say I had 15 overfires...each lasting 30-45 minutes....blood red or a little hotter.  

Other opinions?


----------



## tradergordo

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Kudos to MSG for sifting through the posts to find the 30' chimney.



Where the heck were the pro's when I said ON PAGE 2 of this thread:

*"We don’t know if he has an excessive draft problem (he described a 31+ foot (flue+chimney) straight up exhaust - that sounds suspect to me!"*

?

  Oh well, I'm glad the problem is solved now!


----------



## begreen

> Does "manometer" = "air velocity meter" = " "draft guage" ??



Yes. If you can get the dealerto come out with a guage it may strengthen your case. Particularly if the draft readings are very high without the damper. 



> Based on MountainStoveGuy, Elk, and others....sounds like with 25 straight feet of 8 inch stainless chimney, lack of draft will not be a problem. So I am concentrating on the upper end: how much damper do I engage to eliminate glowing, but not alter other burn characteristics, like start-up.



The best results are likely to have the stack damper open when starting the stove. Then closed as much as possible without negatively affecting the secondary burn in the stove. Try 45 degree angle for the damper after she gets going good. Do this for a few burns and see how it behaves at that setting. 



> In your opinion, what are the chances I have done permanent damage to my cast iron such that its life span will be significantly shortened? Let's say I had 15 overfires...each lasting 30-45 minutes....blood red or a little hotter.



That's a topic I'd take up with the dealer. It's a little confusing from the posts, is it one part that is red or several? If the heat shield was glowing red, how red was the part behind it? The rear shield needs to come off and a close inspection on all affected parts should follow. If anything is white or cracked, I'd insist on replacement. But maybe inspection will show all being ok. As mentioned earlier, car exhaust manifolds can get red hot each time they run in some vehicles. Whatever, I would like it in writing that the warranty is intact if there is ever a failure with this part.


----------



## marc nichols

Well, my dealer rep showed up this morning; a different fellow from the first time. This guy was quite knowledgeable about the design of this stove and clearly well versed in the dynamics of fire, fuel and air flow. 

To make a long story short, he confirmed that we could not control the burn rate at all with the thermostat lever, all systems were working and there were no gross leaks. His conclusion was that the system was over drafting. You may recall this unit has an 8" x25' pipe. He planned to call his distributor and VC directly for suggestions. Two ideas were discussed: a damper above the stove and a controllable cold air intake for testing purposes. Based on discussions here, I doubt that VC will condone either. However, it is their responsibility to make this system function. Otherwise, they can have it back no expense to me. And...you all will know that the design is in this way challenged and VC stepped up or.... didn't.  As I see it, the sticky problem they have is that the stove is certified as it is specified.

BTW, with my thermometer center mounted just to the rear of the top loading plate, and a moderate load of Oak, the temperature runs 400- 500 deg. depending on how long the load has burned down.  Relative to a proper running set up, I don't know where this lies in the normal range of operation for this stove. Does anyone have numbers?


----------



## elkimmeg

center griddle top temps should run between 400 and 650 though the manual does indicate 750 but I never try to run it that high

The manual also indicated the ranges as high low and mediun the prior manuals for older Encores do indicate the range by temp.
 I will look them up and post them here.

Readings in the 350-500°F (175-260°C) range 
indicate low to medium heat output.  
• 500-600°F (260-315°C) readings indicate me- 
dium heat output.  
• Readings of 600-750°F (315-400°C) indicate 
high heat output. Operating your Encore continuously 
at griddle temperatures of 750°F (385°C)


----------



## marc nichols

elkimmeg said:
			
		

> center griddle top temps should run between 400 and 650 though the manual does indicate 750 but I never try to run it that high
> 
> The manual also indicated the ranges as high low and mediun the prior manuals for older Encores do indicate the range by temp.
> I will look them up and post them here.
> 
> Readings in the 350-500°F (175-260°C) range
> indicate low to medium heat output.
> • 500-600°F (260-315°C) readings indicate me-
> dium heat output.
> • Readings of 600-750°F (315-400°C) indicate
> high heat output. Operating your Encore continuously
> at griddle temperatures of 750°F (385°C)



Great info Elk. Is the above relative to the 1450 model non-cat? How old is the manual you have?


----------



## elkimmeg

The manual or Encore I have is for the current model run of Cat Encores basically they are of the same designe  pannelks ect so the cast iron has the same tollarance range
 I would not hesitate to opperate the Non cat encore in the mode.Also this is also found in the Modern Model run of the Resolute Acclain whicch is a non cat.

 Here is what I do I have two stove top rutland thermometers on my top one to check the reliability of the other I do not need the two But uses then to cross refference each other

 Tonight will not go below 20 .My zone is holding 70 degrees stove top is 450 I will not be pushing it any more.

 nights below 20 to say 10 I target 500 to 550 griddle temps

Bellow 10  I'm pushing  550 to 650 the colder  the higher stove top temp 

 I am able to accomplish this with a 2" or better bed of coals  full load of wood primary air open 1/2 to full 10 minuter at 5minutes if primary open full I cut it back to 1/2  Many times I will bring the stove top to 600 or 650 damper it cut primary full closed and wait 10 minutes to make my final setting. At that point I see how the fire has adjusted to dampering down. If I wan more heat then I open the primary 1/8  1 1/4 or 3/8  I may have to adjust it again in 15 minutes.

 Normal burn times the 450 range  a full 8 hours a load

500 to 550 7 of the hours will stay within this range  but the last hour will drop between 400 and 450 with a good bed of coals to easilly start up a fire

600 /650  6 to 6.5 hours in this range then it starts dropping  to 400 possibly 350 the last 30 minutes still stirring the coals and gathering them the fire will easilly ignight the next load

 however I may use smaller splits first  and not fully load till the smaller ones get fully in flame. 

 This is using woos that has been seasoned 2 years,  good decent hardwood and decent size splits. My Cat Encore has consistantly given me these results this is not a one tome lucky 
 opperation but truthfull results 

 Really the temps you are reporting does not indicate over firing but  learnig what it takes to run your stove. Every new stove has a learning curb.  I am giving you realistic guidelines
 and not manufacturing hype about BTUs or area heated. Your wood supply or moisture containt, will retard the results I posted here if it is not as seasoned as mine.

 I hope this gives you a range to target for productive opperations


 BTW I have a non Cat Encore here but it relfects an newer model than yours 1451 which I will pull the manual from and compare it to the prior 1450 models


----------



## marc nichols

elkimmeg said:
			
		

> The manual or Encore I have is for the current model run of Cat Encores basically they are of the same designe  pannelks ect so the cast iron has the same tollarance range
> I would not hesitate to opperate the Non cat encore in the mode.Also this is also found in the Modern Model run of the Resolute Acclain whicch is a non cat.
> 
> Here is what I do I have two stove top rutland thermometers on my top one to check the reliability of the other I do not need the two But uses then to cross refference each other
> 
> Tonight will not go below 20 .My zone is holding 70 degrees stove top is 450 I will not be pushing it any more.
> 
> nights below 20 to say 10 I target 500 to 550 griddle temps
> 
> Bellow 10  I'm pushing  550 to 650 the colder  the higher stove top temp
> 
> I am able to accomplish this with a 2" or better bed of coals  full load of wood primary air open 1/2 to full 10 minuter at 5minutes if primary open full I cut it back to 1/2  Many times I will bring the stove top to 600 or 650 damper it cut primary full closed and wait 10 minutes to make my final setting. At that point I see how the fire has adjusted to dampering down. If I wan more heat then I open the primary 1/8  1 1/4 or 3/8  I may have to adjust it again in 15 minutes.
> 
> Normal burn times the 450 range  a full 8 hours a load
> 
> 500 to 550 7 of the hours will stay within this range  but the last hour will drop between 400 and 450 with a good bed of coals to easilly start up a fire
> 
> 600 /650  6 to 6.5 hours in this range then it starts dropping  to 400 possibly 350 the last 30 minutes still stirring the coals and gathering them the fire will easilly ignight the next load
> 
> however I may use smaller splits first  and not fully load till the smaller ones get fully in flame.
> 
> This is using woos that has been seasoned 2 years,  good decent hardwood and decent size splits. My Cat Encore has consistantly given me these results this is not a one tome lucky
> opperation but truthfull results
> 
> Really the temps you are reporting does not indicate over firing but  learnig what it takes to run your stove. Every new stove has a learning curb.  I am giving you realistic guidelines
> and not manufacturing hype about BTUs or area heated. Your wood supply or moisture containt, will retard the results I posted here if it is not as seasoned as mine.
> 
> I hope this gives you a range to target for productive opperations
> 
> 
> BTW I have a non Cat Encore here but it relfects an newer model than yours 1451 which I will pull the manual from and compare it to the prior 1450 models



Again, more really pertinent information and I thank you kindly.

As to learning how to operate etc., I assure you that while I would not indulge myself wity a handle such as "master" or king of tye fire box etc., I am a trained professional fire fighter and in a former life, schooled in engineering. One focus had been carburetor design which fits in nicely with the way some of these systems work. In any case, I completely understand how to run this thing. the problem is, the parts involved are not functioning as designed. This may well be as analysed by some; too much draft. Bottom line, the primary air control has zero effect on the burn in my stove and we have confirmend that the flap is responding to the handle. Instruments such as a manometer would be useful for certain. For now, the local rep is looking into next steps with VC and I feel better armed with some reasonable expectations as to the "normal" controllability of this stove.

Again, thank you.

Marc


----------



## MountainStoveGuy

Marc, the reson your air control doenst work is because your chimney is pulling all the combustion air through the secondary combustion chamber, which is not controllable by any leaver. When you have proper draft, the air control turns down the stove because it forces air through the secondary burn chamber which casues air resistance, and slows every thing down. when you have to much draft, the stoves engineered  resistance wont work because the draft is out of the scope of the design of the stove. I hope that makes sense.


----------



## marc nichols

MountainStoveGuy said:
			
		

> Marc, the reson your air control doenst work is because your chimney is pulling all the combustion air through the secondary combustion chamber, which is not controllable by any leaver. When you have proper draft, the air control turns down the stove because it forces air through the secondary burn chamber which casues air resistance, and slows every thing down. when you have to much draft, the stoves engineered  resistance wont work because the draft is out of the scope of the design of the stove. I hope that makes sense.



Yes, it does make sense and it is the basis we are going with for now. It will be interesting to see what VC says/does. If I went to the 6" pipe, that may help but it would be contrary to their published specs for my application. I understand in this forum VC has clearly stated no to a damper. That leaves little unless I just do it anyway.

It seems to me that a restriction on the air inlet for the secondary to compensate for the overdraft would also work. Once adjusted, that orifice reduction wouldn't need to be a variable and would i think put the system back in balance.

Marc


----------



## Gooserider

Marc said:
			
		

> MountainStoveGuy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Marc, the reson your air control doenst work is because your chimney is pulling all the combustion air through the secondary combustion chamber, which is not controllable by any leaver. When you have proper draft, the air control turns down the stove because it forces air through the secondary burn chamber which casues air resistance, and slows every thing down. when you have to much draft, the stoves engineered  resistance wont work because the draft is out of the scope of the design of the stove. I hope that makes sense.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it does make sense and it is the basis we are going with for now. It will be interesting to see what VC says/does. If I went to the 6" pipe, that may help but it would be contrary to their published specs for my application. I understand in this forum VC has clearly stated no to a damper. That leaves little unless I just do it anyway.
> 
> It seems to me that a restriction on the air inlet for the secondary to compensate for the overdraft would also work. Once adjusted, that orifice reduction wouldn't need to be a variable and would i think put the system back in balance.
> 
> Marc
Click to expand...


I don't think a fixed restriction on the secondary intake would work reliably - your draft pressure will vary somewhat depending on things like temperatures, wind conditions, etc. so you would need varying amounts of restriction.  However putting a variable restriction on the secondary would tend to be defeating the entire design concept of the modern stove, that the secondary is not closeable so that you can't go into "smolder mode"

I'd be more inclined to go with the manual damper in the outlet, no matter what VC says.

 Gooserider


----------



## marc nichols

Gooserider said:
			
		

> Marc said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MountainStoveGuy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Marc, the reson your air control doenst work is because your chimney is pulling all the combustion air through the secondary combustion chamber, which is not controllable by any leaver. When you have proper draft, the air control turns down the stove because it forces air through the secondary burn chamber which casues air resistance, and slows every thing down. when you have to much draft, the stoves engineered  resistance wont work because the draft is out of the scope of the design of the stove. I hope that makes sense.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it does make sense and it is the basis we are going with for now. It will be interesting to see what VC says/does. If I went to the 6" pipe, that may help but it would be contrary to their published specs for my application. I understand in this forum VC has clearly stated no to a damper. That leaves little unless I just do it anyway.
> 
> It seems to me that a restriction on the air inlet for the secondary to compensate for the overdraft would also work. Once adjusted, that orifice reduction wouldn't need to be a variable and would i think put the system back in balance.
> 
> Marc
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't think a fixed restriction on the secondary intake would work reliably - your draft pressure will vary somewhat depending on things like temperatures, wind conditions, etc. so you would need varying amounts of restriction.  However putting a variable restriction on the secondary would tend to be defeating the entire design concept of the modern stove, that the secondary is not closeable so that you can't go into "smolder mode"
> 
> I'd be more inclined to go with the manual damper in the outlet, no matter what VC says.
> 
> Gooserider
Click to expand...


With a properly sized and balanced chimney pipe such that the system operates per design, there is no adjustment for temp, wind bar pressure etc. but the thermostat flap is effective I presume. So why wouldn't a restriction on the intake for the secondary work? How about a variable inlet? What would be the operating difference between that and a damper?

This isn't to "defeat" anything by the way. It is to compensate for a design problem....we think.

Thanks for your thoughts on this.


----------



## Roospike

cmcramer said:
			
		

> *Me Too!*
> 
> You can be sure I will follow up with VC - in writing - as soon as I give my dealerthe 2-3 weeks he asked for so a VC Rep can contact me. I believe an extended warrantee is called for here.



No extended warranty or any warranty for you cmcramer ! 
You *OVERFIRED* your stove son !   Warranty VOIDED .

Alright , I'll quit stirring the pot . Had to came check in on this thread to see if VC made things right yet or even posted to the issues and how to fix them.


----------



## cmcramer

Hey Roospike - Overfired?   Whaddya mean, overfired?  Glowing red cast iron is "NORMAL", remember?  And not a WORD about overdraft in the manual.



> November 3, 2006
> Subject: Glowing Rear Components
> 
> I am writing this letter in response to reports that parts of the rear cast assemblies on the Resolute Acclaim and some of our Everburn Woodstoves are glowing red. The hot flue gases do hit the sides here while turning to go vertical in the rear lower right and rear lower left of the stoves.  On a large load of wood it is normal for these areas to glow while the fire is at its peak (typically one or two hours during a burn cycle) and dull “blood red” glowing may extend upward toward the base of the flue collar.  These areas have been reinforced to deal with the excess temperatures that may occur here. The glowing does not constitute any safety or operational issue.
> 
> If further questions arise, please contact me.
> 
> Sincerely yours,
> CFM Corporation
> John Davidson
> Senior Technical Advisor


----------



## cmcramer

Got some spare time?  Call 1-800668-5323 and navigate to VC Woodstove guy. Tell 'em you have a Encore model 1450 (non-cat) that's glowing red.

"Sounds like you're burning your stove a little too hot, Sir"

No, Really?

"What kind of wood are you using, Sir"

Year old Maple

"What is the surface temp Sir"

600 F

"What's the flue gas temp?"

Don't know - shouldn't matter. Can I put a damper in the flue  to slow down the fire?

"No. We can't recommend that. VCs never been tested with dampers. Could be dangerous. Call your Dealer for help."

Bye!


----------



## TMonter

VC's lack of response to this thread is troubling. Even after we found the problem you'd think they'd be able to address this somewhat. Any word from VC on a response Elk?


----------



## mikeathens

I am looking back over the last week...I am not going to keep getting involved in this, but I wish you all would read what I have written in the past instead of making assumptions and misquoting me:

1.  My stove was not installed "illegally" or improperly.  Two dealers and one inspector failed to mention anything about flue collar gaps and sealing.  By the way - NEVER an issue with any other stove.  Perhaps special instruction in the maunal are in order?  As stated earlier - screws?  Inspectors don't even know the code.  Why rely on them if they are going to give faulty/innacurate information?  Elk, you tried to tell me numerous times that the XL DW cat model could be used with a 6" flue?  You had a convincing argument, and then another member popinted out that you were worng?  Who do I trust now?  Why the hell would you pass on info that you were making up?  PARTIAL CREDIBILITY LOSS.
2.  The perceived "overfiring" was NOT necessarily solved by the connector pipe seal.   I decided to move to a more dependable model than continue to waste wood and my time trying to fight an uphill battle.  I didn't give it a chance to act up again.  Don't asssume this solved the runaway stove problem.  Doesn't look like it makes much difference to others, either.
3.  the stove was VERY difficult to operate:  let me restate.  On the cat model and on my new Hearthstone w/tubes, as long as there is a flame in the firebox, the stove will quickly start operating visible emissions-free.  with the everburn, flames in the box mean nothing, and getting the secondary to engage can be a time-comsuming and frustrating process.  Flames in the DW everburn simply meant that you were getting heat, but 9 times out of ten, smoke was BILLOWING from the chimney.  Not efficient.  Not easy to operate.  this equals crap in my opinion.
4.  despite the fact that thousands of these stoves have been sold over the past couple years, MOST people don't care about the smoke or efficiency.  If it looks pretty and puts out heat, it's fine.  Hence, I would expect that few people would lodge any complaint.
5.  VC has poor customer service.  Three different answers on operation of the same stove from the same 1800 number?  I called two dealers.  Neither knew what "proper" operation was.  VC stated on the phone that rumbling indicates overfiring.  Dealers both state "operate just like the cat. model".
6.  I am not outraged.  I never said outraged.  I am disappointed that VC can't get me a straight answer or train dealers how to operate the Everburn.  This might make it easier for the rest of us...
7.  All of this is too much of a hassle.
8.  I am not tring to dissuade anyone from buying any VC stove.  Just stating my experiences.  Do not try to point fingers at operators and/or installations.  For those of you having good luck with the stove, good for you, congratulations.  For those of us not, many factors are involved, but I will say in my case, it was not the operator.  Remain skeptical if you want, but there are enough of us having the same problem to rule out what many of you are so fixated on:  operator error and poor installations.

I am NOT going to buy another one of these stoves.  I would recommend everyone considering one to see one in operation, and get PROFESSIONAL, knowledgable operating advice (something not necessary with the cat or burn tube stoves).  I would also recommend to VC to train your dealers, installers, etc. with this everburn stove inparticular because it so finnicky and requires some majorly unorthodox operating techniques.  What I am reading here is that you have to baby sit the stove for over an hour to get the prerequesite coal bed (this is what I experienced).  Don't let it go too long, or you have to start over again!

No more from me on this subject.  Too many people ready to jump in and start bashing people, knowledge, and stoves they know little or nothing about.  Good luck everyone.  Good luck VC.  I hope all of you enjoy your "normal" glowing red stoves and hours upon hours of frustrating fun.

FYI:  you won't hear from me again.  I can see that everyone who thinks that this everburn crap is the greatest thing in the world is going to continue to place all blame on the "ignorant" user and "inexperienced" installer and all of their sub-standard materials and skills.


----------



## BrotherBart

Mike from Athens said:
			
		

> I am looking back over the last week...I am not going to keep getting involved in this, but I wish you all would read what I have written in the past instead of making assumptions and misquoting me:



For what it is worth, zilch, I agree with you on all points Mike. Glad ya have a stove now that gets the job done without all of the hassle.

Personally I think that 99% of wood stove buyers should get ones with the top re-burn tube design. At least they can simply "enjoy the fire" with decreased emissions even if they aren't pyros like a lot of us here that want to run'em at max efficiency and aren't pursuing their Masters of Stoveology.


----------



## Gooserider

Marc said:
			
		

> Gooserider said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Marc said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MountainStoveGuy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Marc, the reson your air control doenst work is because your chimney is pulling all the combustion air through the secondary combustion chamber, <snip>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <snip>
> It seems to me that a restriction on the air inlet for the secondary to compensate for the overdraft would also work. Once adjusted, that orifice reduction wouldn't need to be a variable and would i think put the system back in balance.
> 
> Marc
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't think a fixed restriction on the secondary intake would work reliably - your draft pressure will vary somewhat depending on things like temperatures, wind conditions, etc. so you would need varying amounts of restriction.  However putting a variable restriction on the secondary would tend to be defeating the entire design concept of the modern stove, that the secondary is not closeable so that you can't go into "smolder mode"
> 
> I'd be more inclined to go with the manual damper in the outlet, no matter what VC says.
> 
> Gooserider
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> With a properly sized and balanced chimney pipe such that the system operates per design, there is no adjustment for temp, wind bar pressure etc. but the thermostat flap is effective I presume. So why wouldn't a restriction on the intake for the secondary work? How about a variable inlet? What would be the operating difference between that and a damper?
> 
> This isn't to "defeat" anything by the way. It is to compensate for a design problem....we think.
> 
> Thanks for your thoughts on this.
Click to expand...

Well with a properly working system, I still see comments about needing to adjust burning habbits for different conditions.  My assumption is that when the system is doing right, the variation in draft falls within the range the stove can deal with.  In the systems that aren't doing right, at least some of the time the variation falls outside the range on one side or the other - note that at least some of our "problem users" have reported things occasionally work OK.  From some of the other manuals I've looked at where they DID talk about draft numbers, it looks like the "tolerable range" is about 0.75" WC  - below 0.25" you don't have enough draft to get a good burn, and over 1.0" you have to much to control the stove.  

I'm guessing here, but assume that the "conditions induced variation" is on the order of 0.25"WC, if this variation falls entirely inside the tolerable range window, then you never have problems.  If it occasionally goes towards the low side, you have intermittent draft failure, or intermittent overfire problems if it occasionally goes on the high side.  How far outside the window you get would say how often you have problems and how bad they'd be.  If you were constantly on the high (or low) side, then you would have a chronic problem.

Adding a restriction should effectively "shorten" the stack, reducing the draft to the point where it falls within the range.  Since this would be making the system work outside it's "natural" range, I'd expect it to be a bit fussier about sensitivity to conditions changes.  The question is whether or not it would be possible to find a single fixed restriction that would work under all conditions, or if you would need a variable restriction to allow better control because of the fussier nature of the setup.  I don't know.

Now the question becomes where to add the restriction.  If you put it on the intake side, then the chimney will still be pulling on the stove with the full draw, and you'd get an effective partial vaccum inside the stove.  Since fires need air to burn, this might reduce the ability to get a good burn, plus the air that does get into the stove would be really sucked through fast, again prossibly not letting the controls work.  

OTOH, putting the restriction on the exhaust side has the stove side of the restriction pulling with less draft, but still pulling hard on the stack side.  This leaves the stove pulling in air at normal pressure, and exhausting into a draft that it thinks isn't pulling as hard, so the stove will think everything is "normal".  The stiffer draft on the stack side will simply make sure the smoke clears quickly, which is a good thing.

Thus I think you would be better off putting the restriction on the exhaust side, simply because it would have less impact on the dynamics of the stove itself.

As to the "defeat" issue - I'm not saying that your intent was to cause the stove to burn dirty, just that the effect of adding a variable restriction would potentially allow you to do so - Just like they have taken a great deal of the adjustability out of our car engines because if they left you able to adjust things you might set the engine up to run dirtier (and better in some cases)  I suspect that just like in the auto industry where the car makers are very constrained in what they can tell you to do about adjusting things, the stove industry is as well - (possibly in an effort to keep the gov't from mandating more stuff on them)  And just like in the car / bike industry that has spawned a sizeable aftermarket industry of devices to "fix" the EPA regs induced "design defects" we have the equivalent in the stove industry with things like inline dampers, etc.

 Gooserider


----------



## cmcramer

Gooserider  - 

Sure sounds correct to _this _layman: great analysis. 

And your analysis is why I put a manual damper in my flue. It will still take some fussin'- no doubt about it. But I'll work it out.


----------



## marc nichols

Gooserider,

Thanks for the detailed and thoughtful analysis. It all makes sense to me though I still wonder about choaking down the primary inlet. Essentially, that is the simple operation of older stoves...close down the incomming air but only one air input. That however could be THE problem, if any, with trying that on the VC. 

In any case, my rep called this morning after speaking with the distributor sales guy (25 years in the biz) and with the distributors engineer. they concluded that this 8"x25' chimney pipe is overdrafting the stove. design parameters. My dealer will try a damper tomorrow. In a few days after I get a chance to test it, I'll report the results. 

Tonight I loaded with soft wood, my first such fueling. The stove is burning a little cooler but...no adjustability. Same  old thing.


----------



## Roospike

cmcramer said:
			
		

> Hey Roospike - Overfired?   Whaddya mean, overfired?  Glowing red cast iron is "NORMAL", remember?  And not a WORD about overdraft in the manual.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> November 3, 2006
> Subject: Glowing Rear Components
> 
> I am writing this letter in response to reports that parts of the rear cast assemblies on the Resolute Acclaim and some of our Everburn Woodstoves are glowing red. The hot flue gases do hit the sides here while turning to go vertical in the rear lower right and rear lower left of the stoves.  On a large load of wood it is normal for these areas to glow while the fire is at its peak (typically one or two hours during a burn cycle) and dull “blood red” glowing may extend upward toward the base of the flue collar.  These areas have been reinforced to deal with the excess temperatures that may occur here. The glowing does not constitute any safety or operational issue.
> 
> If further questions arise, please contact me.
> 
> Sincerely yours,
> CFM Corporation
> John Davidson
> Senior Technical Advisor
Click to expand...


O' Thats right , my bad .  ;-)


----------



## cmcramer

Update and Epilogue: 

Using my newly installed manual damper definitely slowed the stove....but did _not_ prevent the stove from glowing red under all situations. I still had a red hot stove near the flue collar a couple times over 2 weeks as I waited for VC Field Rep to show. To produce a red stove, it needed to be really hot at surface (650), with a big bed of hot coals, and a firebox packed full of new wood. After engaging secondary burn and turning primary air all the way down, temp would climb slightly and stove would glow.

VC Field Rep was 100% professional, informative, and all business. He began by listening real hard and asking a few pointed questions. He immediately zeroed in on the gaskets, using the dollar bill test to check for air leaks. Front Door was acceptable....and ash pan door at latch end was acceptable. Now I'm thinking to myself.....sure glad I tested these like hearth.com guys suggested.....I'd be really embarrassed if he found a bad gasket that I missed.....

Then he tests the *hinge end of the ash pan door* and the dollar bill simply falls out to the floor. Dang! Turns out the *latch end *can be tight while the *hinge end *is loose, something that just never ocurred to me, even though now that I look back over this thread, someone did say to use the dollar bill _every few inches all the way around each of the doors_.

Rep unbolted the ash pan door hinge, tapped it in a few times with what looked to be a vinyl-covered steel mallet, and tightened it back up. You could tell he had done this before....  Rep says "it's VC's responsibility, not yours."  Made me feel a _little _better.

I can not reproduce my glowing red stove anymore. It's only been 5 days, but I've given it my best shot. Instead of climbing in temp and glowing, the temp drops 50 or 100 and steadies out for a nice long, steady burn. 

Interestingly enough, VC Rep did not think overdraft was a significant factor. If I remember his explanation properly, he said the Everburn chamber's proper operating temp *is* its maximum temp, and its maximum temp *is* its proper operating temp...._when the primary air is closed and the stove is otherwise operated properly_.  So overdraft might pull more air in through the secondary air inlet, but that by itself would not - could not - get the Everburn any hotter than it was....because it runs at it's maximum temp. And adding 'cooler' air from the secondary inlet is not gonna increase the Everburn's internal temp.  Now, if excess air is leaking through the dang ashpan gasket (on the door-hinge end)....this *can *cause overly hot gases to enter the Everburn.....gases hotter than the stove is engineered for ....and this can cause the Everburn to burn hotter than it is designed to burn......and can cause glowing cast iron nearby.  That's my best recollection - hope it makes sense.

VC Rep also said that if cast iron is not warped and not cracked - which it is not - then my 14-15 episodes of glowing is not a significant issue in the life of this stove. I sure hope he is correct.

Now I'm gonna work on getting those long burn times I read about here! Gonna start cutting my wood longer and splitting it less!

Thanks for all the help!


----------



## BrotherBart

Wonderful. Glad it is fixed and the stove is running as designed. Kudos to VC for fixin it up.


----------



## begreen

Good to hear a happy ending. These stoves are finely tuned. A little air in the wrong place can make them tempermental.  I am a little dismayed that the hinge side is adjusted by banging on them with a mallet, but hopefully this won't need an annual adjustment.


----------



## elkimmeg

Behind the sceens I urged VC to get this issue sloved, From the begining I thought it sounded like a gasket problem. Knowing these stoves, I really also though it was the ash pan. Which I know I mentioned.  I never thought of the hinge pin adjustment. I figured the latch adjustment.  Well I promised you,  your issue would get resolved. and promised VC does take quality issues serious, serious enough to send out their top tech. . If it did not work out , I convinced VC to swap it out with a cat model. You were not going to be ignored or forgotten.  Very few manufactures take this step, they all leave it up to the dealerto figure it out.   Glad to hear they were able to correct  your issues. I'm sure a memo will be going out to all dealers to check or adjust  the very few others that have simmilar problems.  I am sure that they are checking, at the factory, that  this issue is not going out the door without being checked


----------



## Roospike

Very good deal this issue was figured out on your stove , this is something VC needs to take a closer look at. 

I always feel if you need a damper then there is an issue somewhere else in the stove , pipe damper are a band-aid to another problem assuming its a quality built stove in the first place.

This problem sounds like a standard issue dealer / vc phone call should of fixed ASAP . There are some stoves like Pacific Energy that one needs to check the door when first installed because the doors are not made with the stove and the stove has so many door options . I dont know if VC builds these stove with the door from the factory but the way Elk talks there all quality checked before going out the door ......if this is the case then it looks like VC just happened to miss a stove to two ( or more with the famous everburn stove problem ) 

The issue needs to be standard knowledge with the dealer , the vc stove owners manual and the VC phone service # .

At least now its standard knowledge on Hearth.com for whatever few everburn owners show up here looking for answers. 

Again , *GLADE TO SEE THE PROBLEM IS FIXED!* Now , go burn some wood and enjoy the stove the way it was meant to be. 

**************************** :cheese: **********************************


----------



## begreen

Roospike said:
			
		

> I always feel if you need a damper then there is an issue somewhere else in the stove , pipe damper are a band-aid to another problem assuming its a quality built stove in the first place.



That's like saying if you need to put chains on the tires there is an issue somewhere else in the car. Plain silly. 
Put a PE on a 40 ft stack and it will likely be redder than a whorehouse and about as hard to control. ;-)

Although VC (and all of us) may have learned a good thing about everburn stoves, that doesn't mean that they aren't a great product. I'm with Elk on this one, we need more stoves that are pushing to burn as cleanly and efficiently as possible. There may be a learning curve and some adjusting, but the everburn stoves are a positive step. If a tall stack needs a damper, so be it. No big deal.


----------



## DavidV

Hey BB I want to know more about those ribs.


----------



## Roospike

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Roospike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I always feel if you need a damper then there is an issue somewhere else in the stove , pipe damper are a band-aid to another problem assuming its a quality built stove in the first place.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's like saying if you need to put chains on the tires there is an issue somewhere else in the car. Plain silly.
> Put a PE on a 40 ft stack and it will likely be redder than a whorehouse and about as hard to control. ;-)
> 
> Although VC (and all of us) may have learned a good thing about everburn stoves, that doesn't mean that they aren't a great product. I'm with Elk on this one, we need more stoves that are pushing to burn as cleanly and efficiently as possible. There may be a learning curve and some adjusting, but the everburn stoves are a positive step. If a tall stack needs a damper, so be it. No big deal.
Click to expand...


*"BAND-AID"*

and NO begreen , a damper on a stove to band-aid the possible issues is NOTHING like chains on tires. Not even in the same ball park.

cmcramer was suggested a damper ( band-aid) to be put on his stove and turns out it wasnt the pipe at all.

Gunner put a damper ( band-aid) on his pipe to solve a drafting issue and come to find out it was a collar attachment leak and not a over drafting chimney at all. 

I would be walking on egg shells telling people to just slap on a damper when 99% of the time its another issue all togother..........as we have been seeing many times on this forum.

**************WADR***************


----------



## Corie

I disagree.

You have a fluid device designed to operate over a relatively small range of fluid velocity.  If the fluid velocity is too high, the device will not function properly.  The flue damper adjusts to the fluid velocity to that which corresponds to the velocity of optimal performance for the appliance.


How is that a band-aid?  That's simply altering the charecteristics of the environment which the stove is operated in to allow the best possible performance from the appliance.


----------



## Roospike

your missing the point ..................

The point is: the fist thing a lot of people tell someone is "O' You need a damper" when 99% of the time its another issue all together. 

Ya'll are bringing in 40' chimney stacks and has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Now if you want to talk about 40'-50' chimneys than that fine in another thread that may be the case but when the first thing that is thrown out there to an issue is "DAMPER" then that is wrong. Most of the time its another issue all together as proof as we have seen many time on this forum.

I'm not saying a damper isn't ever needed , but there's a time and a place and when one is told out of the box ya need a damper you are misleading people from the actual issue. Just like this thread.


----------



## Corie

I understand what you're saying, but you're not being clear enough.

From your posts, it sounds like you believe there is never a time where a stack damper is needed.



> I *always* feel if you need a damper then there is an issue somewhere else in the stove , pipe damper are a band-aid to another problem assuming its a quality built stove in the first place.



I'll agree that sometimes the draft damper might get jumped to as the easiest fix and maybe sometimes everyone shouldn't do that.  However there are certainly conditions where they are needed and 100% necessary.  Quality stove, quality installation, just a draft that is too strong. No band aid.

Case in point: Russo coal stove, 12 feet of single wall pipe, to 6 feet of insulated chimney through the roof.  Not a seemingly strong draft producer.  Nonetheless, the stove will suck newspaper up the flue.  On a cold day, without a stack damper, there was almost no way to slow down a coal fire, regardless of how open or closed the air control was.  Mind you, stove was purchased brand new, no leaks, good gaskets.  Insert a barometric damper and even on the coldest days, there is no problem with control of the fire.


----------



## Roospike

> I *always* feel if you need a damper then there is an issue somewhere else in the stove , pipe damper are a band-aid to another problem assuming its a quality built stove in the first place.



I stand behind this statement 100% ...............

As we can see in this thread.........it was NOT a damper issue. 

How about this .... The very last thing one should try is a damper to solve an overdraft / overfiring issue with a stove , 99% of the time theres another issue that needs to be corrected. 

I'm making such a strong point to this is because there are so many people on this forum that run around a call out "damper" when there is a problem and in turn then thats a band-aid to the actual issue.


----------



## Roospike

cmcramer said:
			
		

> My one month old VC Encore non-cat connects via 6" flue collar to 6 feet of single wall stove pipe then 25+ feet of Metalbestos (sp.?) chimney - all straight up, ending slightly above my roof's peak. Never a low-draft problem in 20 years of woodstoves.





			
				<span class="spellchecked_word">cmcramer</<SPAN class=spellchecked_word>sp</SPAN>an> said:
			
		

> *I asked earlier: if my straight 31' flue is too much draft, should I put a damper in it? CFM/ tech support said they are asked that question often, and the answer is NO WAY. *
> 
> Don't understand why.



As we see here now as to why Vermont Casting says "NO WAY" to adding a damper to a 31' chimney. .....................

Its another issue all together as we have all found out and *this* is my point to not suggest a damper to solve all stove issues. 

I'm just not sure how to explain it it any other way guys.


----------



## begreen

We had our totally rebuilt 602 on a modest stack, but it loved to overfire and the stack temps showed a lot of heat heading up the stack. I added a damper and it became a pussycat. Very predictable and a significant drop in stack temps. Perhaps it was unnecessary, but I don't think so. Nor do I think there is any blanket rule for all stoves and all flues in all climates. Nor does every stove run perfectly under all circumstances and climate conditions. And if the user has an inherent situation where the stove works great under most conditions, but overdrafts in others, then another degree of regulation can a good thing. The exception of course is the PE which by all accounts has reached near perfection.


----------



## Corie

I don't see any reason to continue talking about it, because your mind is already made up.


----------



## Roospike

Your correct Corie , and this thread backs up why i feel this way as so do all the other threads that end this way as well. 

There is nothing wrong with getting to the bottom of the issue before adding a band-aid to cover up the problems , I'm really unsure why this would even be debated.


----------



## Corie

You're right, in that getting to the bottom of the issue is certainly the main concern.  That's what were here for.


If every overdraft situation is related to a faulty stove, its easy to say that everything we suggest as a potential remedy outside of fixing the stove is a band-aid.


Since every single potential overdraft situation isn't necessarily related to a problem in the stove itself, its hard to globalize what you're saying.


----------



## Roospike

Corie .......I just dont know how to explain it to you any other way , I've changed my wording , I've explained it in different ways and i even placed quotes in.  

Sorry brother , I'm just shot to word it so you understand. Maybe someone else can jump in here and feed it to you in a way it comes through.

cheers. 

Again cmcramer , that awesome you have your stove working the way it should , stick around brother , were going to point you the everburn guy .  ;-)


----------



## Gooserider

I am glad to see this issue resolved, but I'm not sure I would go as far as Roo does and say that the added damper is ALWAYS a band-aid, however I'd agree that perhaps we are over anxious to reccomend it as a solution.  When we have a couple cases of people seeming to solve problems with a damper, it gets real tempting to reccomend it to everyone, which we should probably avoid.

I haven't reviewed the entire thread, but I don't think the damper was the first thing suggested, but only came up AFTER we had suggested the check for air leaks, and other stove problems - The damper was suggested after we were told (wrongly as it turned out) that the stove was sealing properly.

CMC didn't mention it earlier, which is understandable given the timing, but you will note that the damper did NOT solve the problem entirely, though it helped.  I still wonder what the draft reading on the stove would have been, and whether or not that would have indicated a damper - IIRC, we never got that number.



> Using my newly installed manual damper definitely slowed the stove....but did not prevent the stove from glowing red under all situations. I still had a red hot stove near the flue collar a couple times over 2 weeks as I waited for VC Field Rep to show. To produce a red stove, it needed to be really hot at surface (650), with a big bed of hot coals, and a firebox packed full of new wood. After engaging secondary burn and turning primary air all the way down, temp would climb slightly and stove would glow.



So what do we have as "take-away" from this?

1. We should modify our "dollar test" instructions to explicitly include the hinge area, not just a generic "every few inches around the door"

2. We need to put more emphasis on sealing the pipe system, especially at the stove / stack junction.

3. We should be slightly less anxious to reccomend adding a damper unless there are definite indications.  We should include the cautionary note that the damper may appear to work, but really be hiding other problems.

4. If a damper doesn't work, we need to go back to the stove.

5. We should be more interested in getting a draft reading on problem stoves - this raises the question of whether or not there is a low budget "home-brew" method of making a draft meter - would a manometer give the same sort of info? - that would be really simple if it would work...

Other lessons?

Gooserider


----------



## elkimmeg

Goose good summary: Had a draft reading been taken, it would have indicated an over draft situation
 MSG has had a post in the ppast that draft reaings should be the first step in finding out why a stove is not opperating correctly

Many new members here do not know the Lime 4x4 members problems I sent him My draft meter but it never made it to him got lost in the mail my fault for not insuring it
 and having a tracking number. On Ebay there are cheap draft meters. 

 Professional installations should include checking the stove for proper seals simple things like latch adjustments.

 Knowing Dale and Peter at VC, do you think they are having their people check each and every one  from now on?

 Somewhere in the past VC must have treated downeast poorly and the wounds are still deep. Can't argue  against paying $2000 and not getting better QC 
 but that is plagues most manuftacures  be in the stove industry or any home applaince some do slip therw that should not. the point here is to identify them fix them and make sure other
 never suffer from the same issues. And know I would not be happy witha Sears Refrig that only cools to 55 degrees./ I guess downeast has had issues with Sears as well.


----------



## begreen

MSG posted this link for an inexpensive draft guage. 
http://www.dwyer-inst.com/htdocs/airvelocity/Series460Intro.CFM

I've been reviewing some stove manuals this morning. Many warn of the risk of overdraft. I'd say if the stove pipe is going up more than 2 stories, it is likely to draft strongly and should be tested. The stove may not glow red, but may consume more wood than necessary. It would be REALLY helpful for manufacturers to include nominal draft ranges for their stove to take some of the guesswork out of this. Perhaps they do provide the dealers with this information?

Here's a typical mfg. caveat:
2. Too much draft may cause excessive temperatures in the
appliance. An uncontrollable burn or a glowing red stove
part or chimney indicates excessive draft.
[PE Spectrum]


----------



## Gooserider

elkimmeg said:
			
		

> Goose good summary: Had a draft reading been taken, it would have indicated an over draft situation
> MSG has had a post in the ppast that draft reaings should be the first step in finding out why a stove is not opperating correctly
> 
> Many new members here do not know the Lime 4x4 members problems I sent him My draft meter but it never made it to him got lost in the mail my fault for not insuring it
> and having a tracking number. On Ebay there are cheap draft meters.
> 
> Professional installations should include checking the stove for proper seals simple things like latch adjustments.
> 
> Knowing Dale and Peter at VC, do you think they are having their people check each and every one  from now on?
> <snip>



Not sure I follow why we are sure there was an overdraft situation?  If the stove was not sealing properly, could that not have been the entire problem?  I notice that fixing the ash door seal seemed to solve the problem, but putting the damper on didn't - to me that suggests that the seal was more of a problem than the draft....  If CMC did have a draft issue as well as the seal, do you think he'd benefit from continuing to use the damper even though the stove now appears to be working OK without it?

What I was thinking of is if there is an even cheaper method of measuring draft that might not be as accurate as an real genuine meter, but would give a rough indication as to whether or not there was a problem.  This is why I was wondering if a manometer would work a couple of posts back - a poor man's manometer would be really easy to do, and MIGHT give an idea about if there is a problem or not.  Essentially a poor man's manometer is as simple as getting a few inches of clear tubing, attaching one end to the chimney under test, and sticking the other end in a glass of water - measure the height of the water colum...   The question is whether this would work well enough. - I don't know.

I also agree that a good install should check gasket sealing, but I can see how this problem is something that could get missed - note that the LATCH was working properly, it was the hinges that were off - an easy thing to miss - sort of like troubleshooting automotive electrics - everyone checks the wires, but many forget to check the chassis ground....

I'd also agree that Dale and Peter will probably be looking harder at this now, although their existing  smoke test should have caught the problem - I'd almost wonder if it wasn't some form of shipping or installation induced problem, probably the latter.  I could easily see how someone grabbing the door while moving the stove might put an unusual stress on it that could tweak the hinges out of position w/out noticing it.

Gooserider


----------



## Andre B.

Gooserider said:
			
		

> What I was thinking of is if there is an even cheaper method of measuring draft that might not be as accurate as an real genuine meter, but would give a rough indication as to whether or not there was a problem.  This is why I was wondering if a manometer would work a couple of posts back - a poor man's manometer would be really easy to do, and MIGHT give an idea about if there is a problem or not.  Essentially a poor man's manometer is as simple as getting a few inches of clear tubing, attaching one end to the chimney under test, and sticking the other end in a glass of water - measure the height of the water colum...   The question is whether this would work well enough. - I don't know.



Should work just fine after all draft is almost always giving in inches of water in old engineering books.
Give you one guess where the inches were measured. 

Today they just use a mechanical meter because it is more portable and less messy to toss in the tool box.

I think the biggest question is the shape and orientation of the opening in the probe, you want to avoid any ram pressure or  ventury effects.


Simple one for setting propane system pressure.
http://www.rverscorner.com/articles/manometer.html


----------



## cmcramer

> I’d almost wonder if it wasn’t some form of shipping or installation induced problem, probably the latter.  I could easily see how someone grabbing the door while moving the stove might put an unusual stress on it that could tweak the hinges out of position w/out noticing it



Hmmm. We did not grab and drag the stove by the ashpan, but you got me thinkin'...

The stove is shipped on a two-tiered wooden pallet. The bottom tier is a little wider than the stove legs. But the top tier of the pallet was much narrower than the stove legs...and rested directly upon the ashpan.  This  top tier seemed to support its share of the stove's entire weight by resting right on the the dang ashpan.  And if that pallet was not quite built to spec. ....and if more weight than called for rested on that top tier-- ashpan interface................

Plus, it was carted into my house on a two-wheeled cart.

Seems to me that damaging the ashpan hinge alignment during shipping and handling is certainly a real possibility.


----------



## begreen

Own Honda & Toyota automobiles, work in software - both products go out the door with an "acceptable" level of bugs. No product is perfect. And it's really hard for any company to 100% cover what happens in transit.


----------



## Gooserider

downeast said:
			
		

> <snip>
> Motto : "*NO EXCUSES*"  period. We don't need no enthusiasts Msr. E for any brand that fails to work . ( "We don need no stinkin' badges." Bogart ) :roll:  "No one else has ever complained"  drum roll, please.
> Glad the CFM "problem"   was solved for you Cramer. But think about it: how many man hours, frustration, maybe expense did it take over how long for the "problem" to be solved ? How much is your time worth ? We purchase products for 1/2 the price of most wood stoves that operate no more than they should. Would a trial run at the factory cut into CFM's margins that much? Do the Canadian Teachers Union need those pennies ? What has it cost in market share, in good will, in product positioning ? How much time do employees have to take to re-do a defective product ? John Davidson needs to be out pushing product, training dealers, not fighting unecessary fires  :coolsmirk:
> _*Software does not go out the door before being "beta tested". Consumer software has both beta and focus groups.* _Honda and Toyota and Subaru (yes, I am biased towards things that work) use a system of engineering and manufactures called TQM ( Total Quality Management) . It's tough from top down. And complex and expensive in the short haul. It was used at LL Bean.


 (Emphasis added)

Gee sounds like you must have never heard of MICRO$OFT....  Oh, I forgot, they don't have bugs, only "features"

Gooserider


----------



## cmcramer

> Do the Canadian Teachers Union need those pennies



Well, downeast, you certainly struck a chord with me on this one. A minor chord. *F minor*.


----------



## elkimmeg

Downeast is trying to bait me into discussion



> Tell ‘em Mr E. But then “the stoves are 100% American.”



 Are you asking if Canada is part of America?  Last time I checked it  was. 
 Are you looking to  for me to do a brief history lesson  how the war of 1812 established the 49 parrellel 
 Yes we had the French and indian wars, that resulted in more of the border being defined. 

 Yess the Ontario teacher pention plan owns and controls CFM. They had little choice they happened to be the largest share holders when CFM corp  just about Bankrupted the company 
 by delaulting its loan obligations  The teachers association had two options sit back and have bankrupcy courts dish nickles on thier dollars oor take a bold move ant takeover the company.
a take over would mean a huge comniment to more money pumped in to get rolling again, Another part was to sell off u non productive branches of CFm like its water and wter purification unit
 the focus on it main teir of products making hearth products.  Under an entirly new management and finally the funds needed to do R&D CFM/VC  started manufacturing the everburn 
 technology. At no point did the Vermont foundrys ever shut down during all this corporate termoil. Went feul prices were less than $1 per gallon the hearth industry went in decline. 
The early 90's things were so bad the original founder need a company to buy them out they sold to Majestic the original combination on paper looked good VC with wood burning technology and Majestic with gas This union last only a few years till the Mid 90's when CFM bought  out Majestic. CFM oinly looked at the bottom line and  milked the good VC name they brnched out into other industries that did not turn out to be productive and startrd loosing money to the point of loan defaults. During that time QC took a hit  they treated their dealers like crap expecting them to  solve all QC issues. The threat that they would market to the big box stores was real ie gas grills. By selling to the bvig box stores  local dealers could not compete. so many local dealers got fedup and dropped their line.  Somewhere around 1998 /1999 the quality control issuse got to the point things had to be changes Finally replacement refractior packages were used to replace the cracking cast iron plates. A little more money was being directed to R&D again QC began to improve but the company on a whole was loosing money and it came to a head in 2003
 when the teachers bought  out what was left of CFM. From that time forward I have noticed a dedication and renewed commitment to quality and  better dealer relations. CFM has limited its product line with the big box stores  as well. Part of the renewed R&D is connected to the everburn technolody A bold move to bring to market a stove that  emitted less than 1 GPH the cleanes stoves ever tested by the EPA.  The company is banking on the acceptance of this new technology In no way are they out of the financial woods they still carry a huge dedt

 So How am I doing Downeast is this a fair assesment of where VC is and the uphill battle to exist anymore you want to add feel free? I do not feel I sugar coated one part of the history.
I admitted to problems with QC I admittes to dealer relations and lack of dealer support anything else I missed fill us in. Do you think it fair with completely m new owners and managrs that the company is still run the same way If so please educate us. If you have issues VC should address I did supply you with phone nyumbers where you can talk to the head of engineering and let them know of your concerns. I supplied you those phone numeres months back.  If you need them again either back search this site or PM me and I wll provide them again.

 I assume that you were so concerned that you would have taken the initiative and called. Well !,what did you find out? I also assumed you issues would be better you explaining them directly to them,  then finding them out  in pieces on an open forum.  In you mind can you acept that one makes a mistake admits then tries to improve to move on or are they froverr bound by a prior mishaps.  I would like to think one can learn form mistakes and use the knowlegde not to repet them But that's my way of thinking Evidently not shared by you
 So stop feline fotoing around and spill out you discontent ,be you disdain towards me, or the manufacturer ,so it can be addressed .Call VC. I do know the last time you needed info ,I went out of my way to provide you the linkls ,to what you asked.   BTW have you used the everburn technology?


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## SSPENCE

Getting back to the overdrafting problem.  Have any of you read the story in SNEWs about dealing with uncontrollable non-cats.  It says that their tested in a warm lab with only 15 ft of venting, measuring from floor that applaince sits on to cap.  when you put them into a taller install 25ft to 30ft  and in colder climates the draft is so great that the stove will be uncontrollable. and on most non-cats they have a inlet that doesn't shut down all the way so they can pass EPA.  It was a very intresting story that dealers should read.


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## begreen

Hi Spence, is there an online link you can provide to the article?


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## begreen

moving this to its own thread, there's good info that might get lost in a 16 page thread.

 I want an AWES.


http://hometown.aol.com/snewsmail/epasays.htm


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## Andre B.

BeGreen said:
			
		

> moving this to its own thread



https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/7057/


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## Gooserider

downeast said:
			
		

> The time many of you spend online is because of Microsoft R&D. Bugs certainly. Fixes certainly. Microsoft with all itheir imperfections created the entertainment and the compulsion many spend on this forum..and others. It spawned 1000's of spinoffs that created 1000's of jobs and 100's of companies. How can anyone with a job and career take so much time daily to sit at a MS PC ? A quick look at posts: some of you spend at least 4 hours ( FOUR HOURS) per day posting !
> What a life .
> 
> Now boys and girls: CFM is a company owned by the large and powerful and wealthy and closed shop Canadian Teachers Union. It is their pension fund investment. Tell 'em Mr E. But then "the stoves are 100% American."
> 
> Don't ever let facts get in the way.
> BTW: F minor is our favorite key. LOve it.



YOU might be online "because of Microsoft R&D" - I'm not...  My machines run Linux 100%, Microsoft gets some of their networking code from the same BSD licensed files that Linux uses, but Linux does NOT use Microsoft code, other than to the extent that has been needed to reverse engineer some of Microsoft's deliberately incompatible formats...  

When we first got our cable connection, I built up a Win2K box JUST so that I could get the cable people to do the install - Officially Comcast doesn't support Linux - Hooking the W2K box to the directly cable, with a completely new install, we could not get the browser to display properly - After 3 hours on the phone with tech support, it still wasn't working, but I had gotten plenty of malware uploaded onto the machine.  When I told the tech that the only other machines I had available were on the Linux network, the support person suggested that I try those machines anyway - I plugged in my cable router, and everything JUST WORKED....

The net wasn't invented by Microsoft, and very little of the net runs on Microsoft software.  Per all studies, the net backbone runs on a mix of *nix boxes, and Linux machines have had a constantly increasing part of that load.

You might not even be on Hearth.com "because of Microsoft R&D"!  I don't know just what platform the site is running on, but I strongly suspect it's a Linux box, given that the site is credited as "Powered By ExpressionEngine" and EE's website states that it uses PHP, MySQL and a couple of other Open Source programs, all originally developed on Linux, though I think some have been ported to Microsoft...

Gooserider


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## jjbaer

Mike from Athens said:
			
		

> Elk, you tried to tell me numerous times that the XL DW cat model could be used with a 6" flue? You had a convincing argument, and then another member pointed out that you were wrong? Who do I trust now? Why the hell would you pass on info that you were making up? PARTIAL CREDIBILITY LOSS..



Mike...he made a mistake...get over it........if you or I paid for the advice on this forum, we'd have a basis to groan....we didn't and therefore we don't..... Also, Elk has probably forgotten more about stoves than either you or I have ever learned, even though we're BOTH engineers.....I say to cut Elk a break......




			
				Mike from Athens said:
			
		

> No more from me on this subject. Too many people ready to jump in and start bashing people, knowledge, and stoves they know little or nothing about.



You mean too many people bashing Elk....gotcha.....LOL




			
				Mike from Athens said:
			
		

> FYI: you won't hear from me again.



that a threat or a promise...LOL...just kidding

Ok...all kidding aside, I can sense your frustration...I'm NOT a VC owner (own a Jotul C450 but WWL was next in line) but I do think they make very good stoves. However, that said, I've also read the thread here (and took your advice and read your previous thread...very interesting) and, in my opinion, I think VC "missed the boat" here by not even acknowledging the draft issue and by saying glowing parts are normal......I, like you, am an engineer and if I were in the stove business and heard about "glowing parts" the first thing that comes to mind is "too much air".....and for someone to say that glowing parts are normal when the manual says it indicates an overfire, and then tell customers they don't recommend dampers, well, then, IMHTO (in my humble technical opinion), that's plain old b*&&^%$t. And someone mentioned this earlier but the damper has a similar effect to reducing the chimney height so if a damper reduces a 25 ft chimney to effectively draw, for example, equivalent to a 20 ft chimney and if that supposedly voids a warranty, then what about the owner of a 20 ft chimney with NO damper.......his warranty certain-ally isn't void so why would the person with the 25ft chimney have a voided warranty because he used a damper that made his stove draw like it was connected to a 20 ft chimney? Answer: it shouldn't..... Bottom line:  a stoves performance is heavily determined by draft conditions and for companies to not even be willing to address this at all is, well, you fill it in.........that said, VC needs to do better on this but I still think they make fine stoves overall and they did resolve the problem.  I would have however asked for an extended warranty....the stove did technically overfire many times and I think the owner said that the air leak in the ashpan was VC's responsibility.............i.e., segway into "I want an extended warranty"...... 

So, how is the new stove working?

Regards from you "neighbor up North" in the Dayton area...


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## jjbaer

Roospike said:
			
		

> your missing the point ..................
> 
> The point is: the fist thing a lot of people tell someone is "O' You need a damper" when 99% of the time its another issue all together.
> 
> Ya'll are bringing in 40' chimney stacks and has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Now if you want to talk about 40'-50' chimneys than that fine in another thread that may be the case but when the first thing that is thrown out there to an issue is "DAMPER" then that is wrong. Most of the time its another issue all together as proof as we have seen many time on this forum.
> 
> I'm not saying a damper isn't ever needed , but there's a time and a place and when one is told out of the box ya need a damper you are misleading people from the actual issue. Just like this thread.



Roo......stop preaching....we're all trying to help the patient without ever seeing or hearing him/her and that many times means there will be mis-diagnosed cases.....get over it....like I told Mike...if you're paying for the advice then you'd have a legit reason to groan...you ain't and don't.........and yes, as an engineer, draft DOES have a large bearing on how a stove operates so a damper many times is not a band-aid.........


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## elkimmeg

there was a simmilar th post where the  solution turned out to be one of the very first suggestions the ash door seal. Adjusting the hinge of the ash door solved the gasket fit,
 Goose and I speculated that the hinge was probably knocked out of alignment in either transit, using a two wheeler and lifting the stove from the bottom of the ash pan essembly or when moving it into position the ash pand door areas was  a lifting point Finally It could have been damaged by removing the bottom shipping crate. . We think the hinge of the ash door got tweaked and caused it not to seal properly and caues th a masive air leak. When the dollar bill test was applied for some reason it was never done around the hinge position.

 Once the seal was restored the inline damper was not needed. To address Cast  question there are chikmney conditions that draft too strong and no stove will over come that without means to reduce the draft conditions MSG in his altitude has to deal with this all the time I agree with his solution  installation of an inline damper


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## jjbaer

elkimmeg said:
			
		

> there was a simmilar th post where the  solution turned out to be one of the very first suggestions the ash door seal. Adjusting the hinge of the ash door solved the gasket fit,
> Goose and I speculated that the hinge was probably knocked out of alignment in either transit, using a two wheeler and lifting the stove from the bottom of the ash pan essembly or when moving it into position the ash pand door areas was  a lifting point Finally It could have been damaged by removing the bottom shipping crate. . We think the hinge of the ash door got tweaked and caused it not to seal properly and caues th a masive air leak. When the dollar bill test was applied for some reason it was never done around the hinge position.
> 
> Once the seal was restored the inline damper was not needed. To address Cast  question there are chikmney conditions that draft too strong and no stove will over come that without means to reduce the draft conditions MSG in his altitude has to deal with this all the time I agree with his solution  installation of an inline damper



Right on Elk....my point though was that when people on this forum try to help diagnose a problem (or receive help), it's almost certianally without being able to see the stove in question....it's "free tech help at a distance" with a caveat of "free advice isn't always correct so people shouldn't groan when it's not 100% accurate"...........if they were paying for the advice and it turned out to be wrong, well then, there's a reason to groan....but not when we all get/give advice for FREE.....LOL.........


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## webbie

Yeah, no one should ever use Microsoft as a good example of anything - except coercion!

Site is running FreeBSD, I use all Mac products.....and give exactly zero dollars to MS for anything. That stuff is overpriced and, as Go says, it is all hacked together attempting to mimic what UNIX (BSD), etc. already does. Of course, this stuff was all put together by a bunch of longhairs at University of Ca. Berkeley...This forum and many other parts of the site are run on Expression Engine - you can see the link at bottom of page. It is also based on free software (PHP. MYSQL), which is quite powerful stuff...used by Yahoo, etc. to run their servers! I think Google uses Linux although I will have to check it out. I doubt that any of these progressive New Media companies use MS stuff for web serving.

BSD stands for Berkeley Software Distribution. The Mac system is also based on BSD.

If you want to thank someone for the net, there are a lot of folks who did it - none of them at MS....but Bill Joy is my hero!
http://www.engin.umich.edu/alumni/engineer/04SS/achievements/advances.html#joy

I've always compared VC to Mercedes (I had one) - lots of parts, over-engineered and luxury. That doesn't mean that people don't buy them - in fact, if Mercedes sold cars for the same prices as most competitors - as VC does - they would sell a ton. Heck, I'd buy another one even though my last one (Marthas C280) was a dog. Main reason I don't is that I don't really drive much!

DE is correct, however, that this is no more of an American company than Honda or Toyota. Doesn't matter to me, just stating the facts. I rarely make a buying decision on country of origin, especially when many us car brands are made in canada and mexico while japanese brands are made in ohio and kentucy!


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## jjbaer

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Yeah, no one should ever use Microsoft as a good example of anything - except coercion!
> 
> Site is running FreeBSD, I use all Mac products.....and give exactly zero dollars to MS for anything. That stuff is overpriced and, as Go says, it is all hacked together attempting to mimic what UNIX (BSD), etc. already does. Of course, this stuff was all put together by a bunch of longhairs at University of Ca. Berkeley...This forum and many other parts of the site are run on Expression Engine - you can see the link at bottom of page. It is also based on free software (PHP. MYSQL), which is quite powerful stuff...used by Yahoo, etc. to run their servers! I think Google uses Linux although I will have to check it out. I doubt that any of these progressive New Media companies use MS stuff for web serving.
> 
> BSD stands for Berkeley Software Distribution. The Mac system is also based on BSD.
> 
> If you want to thank someone for the net, there are a lot of folks who did it - none of them at MS....but Bill Joy is my hero!
> http://www.engin.umich.edu/alumni/engineer/04SS/achievements/advances.html#joy
> 
> I've always compared VC to Mercedes (I had one) - lots of parts, over-engineered and luxury. That doesn't mean that people don't buy them - in fact, if Mercedes sold cars for the same prices as most competitors - as VC does - they would sell a ton. Heck, I'd buy another one even though my last one (Marthas C280) was a dog. Main reason I don't is that I don't really drive much!
> 
> DE is correct, however, that this is no more of an American company than Honda or Toyota. Doesn't matter to me, just stating the facts. I rarely make a buying decision on country of origin, especially when many us car brands are made in canada and mexico while japanese brands are made in ohio and kentucy!



Web...we agree again...on MACs.......also, Joy graduated at Mich 3 yrs before I did...I was there in Mech Eng but didn't know of him...wasn't well known then....he is now...


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## marc nichols

Weeks ago I reported on my VC non-cat problem: The thermostat control did not provide control of the burn rate/intensity. As a reminder, I have an 8" pipe 25' tall. We are at 3000 ft elevation. 

After consultation with the distributor, my dealer installed a damper.  I stll cannot verify things are working properly and certainly I am less than impressed with control of this stove. I do seem to be able to slow the process down now, though stove top temps don't seem to vary more than 100 degrees while burn time is clearly longer....go figure! I installed a probe type thermometer in the stack and with the stove top at a steady indicated 500 degrees, I'm registering only 250-300 at the probe. No matter what, so far, I can't get the probe reading over 350. I would expect much higher stack temps. 

Anyway, Spring is here and it is beginning to get too warm to need/ survive the stove. I may have to wait until next year to fiddle with it more. For now, I wouldn't recommend a VC non-cat stove to a prospective purchaser. It is far to problematic and touchy as to how it is operated. And, VC hasn't stepped up in this forum to address the issue other than that one "notorious" response.

Fortunately, my dealer promissed to hang in there with me into next fall and a chance to properly retest the stove. I'll keep monitoring this site though to see if VC or anyone else comes up with viable input.

Marc


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## seaken

As a dealer I wish I had some sort of "scanner" that would tell me what type of customer this prospective wood stove client is going to become. If I knew that they were going to be as sensitive as most of the fine folks in this thread I would definitely NOT suggest a VC or DW stove. 

I would try to sell them a Lopi or Avalon. But then they would complain "but I like the features of this VC stove. I want that one. Here's my money. Don't try to talk me out of it. It's want I want!" And I would say, "excuse me, but, my scanner says you will not tolerate a long learning curve, and that you will not lift a wrench, and will expect me to be there on a moments notice to walk you through the process of starting and maintaining fire. You are better suited to this Lopi stove."

They will say, "Are you suggesting that I am uneducated? I am college educated and can figure anything out. Besides, it's a wood stove. How simple can you get? It's not as complex as software, or automobiles, or rockets. Stop try to "sell" to me and give me what I want!"

And I will say, "fine, I will happy to sell you this VC (or insert brand of your choice) if you will agree to follow my suggestions and take my lead as I walk you through the learning curve these stoves require before they operate as you are expecting. When you call me up and want me to be there immediately to help you troubleshoot your stove I want you to agree to allow me to use my knowledge and expertise to help you solve your issues. And if there is a defect in the stove, I want you to allow me to fix it or replace it, at my cost, without accusing me of some nefarious business technique and attributing all manner of crooked business practices to the manufacturer. I want you to admit that this is a wood stove, wherein a fire takes place on a regular basis, and that fire and heat have a tendency to break things. In short, I want you to agree to be a reasonable human being who understands that I am just trying to help you get what you want and will not be held responsible for ruining your life after we find out that my original suggestion to buy a Lopi was really the best choice to begin with. Do you agree to these terms?"

They say "absolutely not! How dare you treat me this way. I am a customer!"

I will say "not my customer". And point them down the street to the other more patient stove dealers.

I swear, the more I'm in this business the more I wonder if I'll be able to put up with the demands of the consumer. One thing's for sure, I won't be selling my products and services to the cheapskates in my neighborhood. I can't afford it. Either I find enough customers who will respect my way of doing business or I will go do something else. Simply put, as a consumer, you can not expect to pay less and less for products and services and then expect excellent service and 100% perfection from everyone in the chain. In order for me to be there at a moments notice, to hire competent service people who know more than God about any subject, and carry only products that have been checked, re-checked, and re-re-checked, I would have to double and triple my prices. Will you pay $4000 for that Encore? That's what it will take to get perfect service and no-questions asked, drop-what-you're-doing personal service. 

You can't have it both ways. If you are going to insist that spending $2000 for a stove entitles you to VIP service and over-the-top response from everyone, at every level in the chain of consumer products distribution, then you will continue to be disappointed and end up coming here to start getting every body worked up about brand X and their terrible customer service. In this world of consumerism you cannot pay enough to get that kind of service. It simply is not available. So, reason would dictate that there is going to be an uncomfortable and prolonged exchange when something goes wrong in the process. Things are so tightly budgeted, in order to give the consumer the lowest price possible, there is no room for contingencies.

How much will you pay to get killer service? Why do you complain when I ask you to pay $200? $1000? I know what it costs to give this type of service. But consumers think they should get it for free? Somethings gotta give.

To sum up (please!), if you want your dealerto be perfect, pay him. Don't expect to get killer service paying market prices for your consumer products. Most of you won't get it. There are not enough dealers who are capable of killer service, and even fewer who are inclined to offer it. A few of you may get, if you pay for it. Otherwise, be content to call more than once, wait for the technician, wait for the decision from the boss, wait for the "repair or replace" decision. 

Rant over. Flame on.


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## Gooserider

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Yeah, no one should ever use Microsoft as a good example of anything - except coercion!
> 
> Site is running FreeBSD, I use all Mac products.....and give exactly zero dollars to MS for anything. That stuff is overpriced and, as Go says, it is all hacked together attempting to mimic what UNIX (BSD), etc. already does. Of course, this stuff was all put together by a bunch of longhairs at University of Ca. Berkeley...This forum and many other parts of the site are run on Expression Engine - you can see the link at bottom of page. It is also based on free software (PHP. MYSQL), which is quite powerful stuff...used by Yahoo, etc. to run their servers! I think Google uses Linux although I will have to check it out. I doubt that any of these progressive New Media companies use MS stuff for web serving.
> 
> BSD stands for Berkeley Software Distribution. The Mac system is also based on BSD.
> 
> If you want to thank someone for the net, there are a lot of folks who did it - none of them at MS....but Bill Joy is my hero!
> http://www.engin.umich.edu/alumni/engineer/04SS/achievements/advances.html#joy
> 
> I've always compared VC to Mercedes (I had one) - lots of parts, over-engineered and luxury. That doesn't mean that people don't buy them - in fact, if Mercedes sold cars for the same prices as most competitors - as VC does - they would sell a ton. Heck, I'd buy another one even though my last one (Marthas C280) was a dog. Main reason I don't is that I don't really drive much!
> 
> DE is correct, however, that this is no more of an American company than Honda or Toyota. Doesn't matter to me, just stating the facts. I rarely make a buying decision on country of origin, especially when many us car brands are made in canada and mexico while japanese brands are made in ohio and kentucy!



Google primarily runs on Linux, and has been the basis of some heated debates in the Free Software community concerning some of their browser based applications - if the code runs on their servers, but the results appear on your machine, does that count as "distributing" the software, with GPL required source code availability...  Nobody has been fighting it that hard though, as Google is otherwise very supportive and puts a good bit of it's profit into supporting Free Software.  Along with high profile stuff like the "Google Summer of Code" projects, where they subsidize several hundred college students to work on various projects, they also have a policy where their regular employees are encouraged to spend a certain amount of their company time each week on Free Software projects.

Linux and BSD are used to run an ever increasing amount of the Internet, mostly taking over from the proprietary Unices.  

What gets really amusing is to poke around the various Microsoft owned sites - NetCraft who studies such things reports that MS is very poor at "eating it's own dogfood" as a very high percentage of MS owned sites are running on boxes that do NOT use MS based OS's - IIRC Hotmail runs on Solaris, and the main MS support site runs on some other proprietary Unix, there are even some Linux boxes in their web mix, but very few MS IIS boxes...  Hardly a suprise, they tell us that security is important to them, so why would they want to run Windows?   

Gooserider


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## ernie

seaken:

Thanks for the post, very plainly put. Right on!

ernie


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