# Bedroom floor is cold



## Beer Belly (Aug 20, 2013)

having the garage underneath is the problem. The garage is insulated, and we usually put down throw rugs for the Winter. The Wife wants to screw 1 inch Foam Boards to the ceiling of the garage.....I don't think this is code, and she doesn't care......we do not want to carpet the bedroom, we love the wood floors.....any suggestions ???


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## The Maine Stove Guy (Aug 20, 2013)

You might consider a Rinnai heater in the space. I'm not sure it will completely accomplish warm floors but it does throw the heat out low just above the floor. The right answer is probably insulating under the floor better.


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## DanCorcoran (Aug 20, 2013)

I fastened foam insulation boards beneath the floor of my cabin, but they're in the open crawl space, not indoors. I don't know if there's a code issue indoors. They do seem to keep the floors warmer.


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## RSNovi (Aug 20, 2013)

I am planning to install electric floor heating in the room above my garage.  It sounds like you already have the floor down though.


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## Jags (Aug 20, 2013)

I am not sure what "code" would be broken by insulating the floor.  If I were doing it (and I am not a code jockey), I would be putting fiberglass with a vapor barrier up there.


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## fox9988 (Aug 20, 2013)

House shoes


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## Ashful (Aug 20, 2013)

We have an old house with all wood floors, and just wear slippers in the house.  Who wants to chance breaking their neck walking down a wood staircase in socks, anyway?

For the bedroom floor, since it seems to be an issue for you, I'd be looking at radiant floor heating.  Pull down garage ceiling and insulation, install radiant system, re-insulate, drywall.  Could be done in two weekends, or in one week by any competent contractor.


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## rideau (Aug 20, 2013)

Sheepskin rugs, sheepskin slippers, or hiking or skiing socks.

The chilly floor likely keep the room a nice temp for sleeping.

Last several winters Cost Co has had a four skin sheepskin rug for a very reasonable price for several weeks...watch for it.  Available in white, black or brown. 

Easier and cheaper than any alternatives, and very enjoyable.


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## Grisu (Aug 20, 2013)

Those foam panels can be installed inside without an additional fire barrier: http://building.dow.com/na/en/products/insulation/thermaxwhite.htm


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## bag of hammers (Aug 20, 2013)

Roxul also makes a rigid panel, designed for basement walls I believe - 100% fire proof.  But if the garage is insulated and drywall over that I'm not sure I would attach anything over top of existing drywall, if that's what she is talking about.  I'd be inclined to drop the drywall and whatever insulation is up there, and inspect to see why it's so cold.  Floors over garages seem to be a favorite spot for builders to skimp.  If you have a bag of $, get a spray foam guy in to fill every void before the drywall goes back up.  Radiant heat as mentioned would be nice.  

Easy for me to spend your time and $$$....


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## Ashful (Aug 20, 2013)

bag of hammers said:


> Easy for me to spend your time and $$$....


 
True, but the materials are not all that expensive... the time is.  Anyone can insulate with batts, and hang and tape drywall.  The radiant can be hot water or electric, and even much of that install could be handled by a handy homeowner.


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## Holzstapel (Aug 20, 2013)

Are you certain that the ceiling in the garage is insulated?  Drill a small hole in the ceiling and probe up there with a coat hanger or something.  See if you can feel the layer of insulation. 

Where i work we deal with developers cutting corners all the time.  There is a high end residential complex where i had to go into every garage and probe the ceiling.  Turns out about 75% of the ceilings were not insulated at all.  The developer had to go back into every garage, remove the ceiling and install insulation.


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## bag of hammers (Aug 20, 2013)

Joful said:


> True, but the materials are not all that expensive... the time is. Anyone can insulate with batts, and hang and tape drywall. The radiant can be hot water or electric, and even much of that install could be handled by a handy homeowner.


Very good points. I mentioned spray foam - as I recall it almost made me fall off my chair when I started asking about cost. That pretty much drove me to DIY and Roxul, both of which I like.



Holzstapel said:


> Where i work we deal with developers cutting corners all the time. There is a high end residential complex where i had to go into every garage and probe the ceiling. Turns out about 75% of the ceilings were not insulated at all. The developer had to go back into every garage, remove the ceiling and install insulation


 
Scary, isn't it. That's where my brain was going. I would be very suspicious of this particular area over the garage. I thought I read somewhere that this was a very common complaint from new homeowners, for warranty claims, etc. If the insulation was done right (and the HVAC is up to spec) that room above should be a non-issue.

My (old) house supposedly has blown in insulation in the walls. I'd say after opening up a couple spots to do some repairs, the previous owner wasted their money. I'm sure there are good insulation contractors out there but I'd be wanting to have a look myself.


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## jharkin (Aug 20, 2013)

Holzstapel said:


> Are you certain that the ceiling in the garage is insulated? Drill a small hole in the ceiling and probe up there with a coat hanger or something. See if you can feel the layer of insulation.


 
I'll bet your suspicion is right.
The OP stated that "The garage is insulated" He didn't specify but I'm betting by the symptoms that the garage walls are insulated and its treated as conditioned space (and thus no insulation between garage and bedroom above). They are probably actually using that garage as a garage and not heating it and thus even though insulated it probably stays quite cold.

I'll add another vote to drop the ceiling and insulate that floor. I cant think of any code issues affected so long as you pay attention to required fire breaks, etc.


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## Ram 1500 with an axe... (Aug 20, 2013)

How about hanging an electric garage heater from the ceiling?


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## Beer Belly (Aug 20, 2013)

I did check around a couple of openings in the garage ceiling, and it is insulated, probably not very well though.....Wife wants a quick fix, but I'd rather tear it apart and do what really needs to be done. A heated floor sounds great, but the Wife already freaks when our electric bill goes up even $5. I'm just gonna have to tell her to live with it, or do it my way.....and then duck


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## Grisu (Aug 20, 2013)

Beer Belly said:


> Wife wants a quick fix, but I'd rather tear it apart and do what really needs to be done.


 
Sounds familiar. 



> A heated floor sounds great, but the Wife already freaks when our electric bill goes up even $5.


 
That's a keeper!


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## jharkin (Aug 20, 2013)

Quick cheap correct

Picky any 2


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## kingquad (Aug 20, 2013)

Dense packing the ceiling with cellulose will be your cheapest and easiest solution.  You may have to cut some sections out of your ceiling to pull out the old insulation.  Then just patch those sections.  A good dense pack insulator will have a thermal I.R. camera and should be able to tell you if you missed any stud spaces.  This will give you good r-value and stop air infiltration, while also being the most cost effective solution as long as you can hang and tape a little bit of drywall.


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## kingquad (Aug 20, 2013)

kingquad said:


> Dense packing the ceiling with cellulose will be your cheapest and easiest solution. You may have to cut some sections out of your ceiling to pull out the old insulation. Then just patch those sections. A good dense pack insulator will have a thermal I.R. camera and should be able to tell you if you missed any stud spaces. This will give you good r-value and stop air infiltration, while also being the most cost effective solution as long as you can hang and tape a little bit of drywall.


By "cut some sections", mean cut strips just big enough to get the old insulation out.


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## Hogwildz (Aug 20, 2013)

Grisu said:


> Those foam panels can be installed inside without an additional fire barrier: http://building.dow.com/na/en/products/insulation/thermaxwhite.htm


You ever see the amount of toxic black smoke polyisocyanurate puts out when it burns? I would never put that anywhere near my house.
I know our code requires not one, but two layers or sheetrock in garage ceilings with living space above. Might be just one for fire rated drywall, not sure there.
Polyiso is bad stuff. Allowed or not, that stuff would never make it near this house.


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## Dave A. (Aug 20, 2013)

Another item to check would be the garage door's weather stripping -- is it tight or allowing a lot of air infiltration making the unheated garage colder than necessary.  Newer doors often have better weather stripping systems than older doors.


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## Beer Belly (Aug 21, 2013)

Dave A. said:


> Another item to check would be the garage door's weather stripping -- is it tight or allowing a lot of air infiltration making the unheated garage colder than necessary. Newer doors often have better weather stripping systems than older doors.


I did check the weather stripping, and replaced the seal on the bottom of the door. Put in a new window last year. I'm thinking the blown insulation is the quickest, and easiest.....now to get her to accept the cost....it's funny, she wants things done, but then when she hears the cost


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## mithesaint (Aug 21, 2013)

jharkin said:


> Quick cheap correct
> 
> Picky any 2


 

Amen brother.


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## bag of hammers (Aug 21, 2013)

DanCorcoran said:


> I fastened foam insulation boards beneath the floor of my cabin, but they're in the open crawl space, not indoors. I don't know if there's a code issue indoors. They do seem to keep the floors warmer.


 I've got this on my to-do list as well.  Did you already have the floor insulated?  Sorry this is a bit off track....


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## DanCorcoran (Aug 21, 2013)

bag of hammers said:


> I've got this on my to-do list as well. Did you already have the floor insulated? Sorry this is a bit off track....


 
My floor is 2x6 tongue-and-groove pine boards. There was no insulation beneath them (open to the crawl space) until I installed the styrofoam insulation. Once I get the woodstove going and the cabin up to temperature, the floors stay warmer than they did without the insulation. The bedroom is carpeted, which adds more insulation in there.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Aug 21, 2013)

Jags said:


> I am not sure what "code" would be broken by insulating the floor. If I were doing it (and I am not a code jockey), I would be putting fiberglass with a vapor barrier up there.


 
The code that gets broken is the one dealing with flame spread, exposed un-faced foam is candy for a fire since it has a very low ignition temperature and burns very quickly and emits very nasty chemicals while a smoldering and a flaming.  Code calls for a certain flame spread rating when materials are used for interior surfaces.  There is a ceramic micro bead powder that can be mixed into cheap flat latex paint that provides the required flame spread, and as another poster pointed out Dow provides foam panels with required ratings as well.

Covering the panels with drywall or another material also can provide the required flame spread ratings, there is a laminated particle board foam panel that comes in 2' by 8' and is 2.5" thick called barricade panel.


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## woodgeek (Aug 22, 2013)

Frankly we're all guessing here. I would add that airsealing between the house and attached garages is a real problem in existing houses. I found a lot of openings between my garage and house, maybe a couple square feet when added up.  If I left garbage in my garage sometimes, I could smell it in the room over...that ever happen to you?

If you've got that, it could be a large part of your problem. Also not great for indoor air quality...gas fumes, exhaust, CO, etc. not what you want in a bedroom. I would go berserk in there with a caulking gun to make the garage drywall a continuous air barrier.

Are the garage sidewalls framed, or concrete? If the latter, you could also be pulling cold air in at the sill plate and freezing your floors. I had that, and just had the area cellulose densepacked for surprisingly cheap.


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## pyroholic (Aug 22, 2013)

Any heat getting dumped in there (in the insulated floor cavity)? When I used to build for Toll Brothers we always had this issue.

 The solution:  draft stop to isolate the part of flooring that actually had living space(there was some dead space in the living area in their design). Insulate.  Run a duct in there to dump a little heat into the insulated area.

Not sure if this is possible with your situation, but thought I'd throw it out there.


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## Beer Belly (Aug 22, 2013)

woodgeek said:


> Frankly we're all guessing here. I would add that airsealing between the house and attached garages is a real problem in existing houses. I found a lot of openings between my garage and house, maybe a couple square feet when added up. If I left garbage in my garage sometimes, I could smell it in the room over...that ever happen to you?
> 
> If you've got that, it could be a large part of your problem. Also not great for indoor air quality...gas fumes, exhaust, CO, etc. not what you want in a bedroom. I would go berserk in there with a caulking gun to make the garage drywall a continuous air barrier.
> 
> Are the garage sidewalls framed, or concrete? If the latter, you could also be pulling cold air in at the sill plate and freezing your floors. I had that, and just had the area cellulose densepacked for surprisingly cheap.


No garage smells leaking into the bedroom above. The garage has the last 8 feet enclosed as a laundry room making it too tight a fit for a car, so just basically storage, and is half foundation with a finished and insulated walls on one side....on the other side of the garage is the lower level family room (split level ranch)


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## semipro (Aug 22, 2013)

Even if the garage ceiling is insulated the fiberglass is probably not in contact with your bedroom floors. Air circulating above the insulation will make the floors cold.
I like the packed cellulose option. I think it will achieve your goals without a complete teardown. I'm not sure that "dense packing" is even required in this case. A medium or loose pack cellulose blow-in may achieve what you need.

Trouble is, no matter how well you insulate your garage ceiling it will still be cold in there. In the bedroom you have only warm air heating your floors and that air tends to rise not sink. I fear even with good insulation your floors will be too cold for your wife unless you add some underfloor heating.

Another option, electrically heated floor mats.  Put them where you wife tends to walk.  I believe you can cover them with area rugs.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Aug 22, 2013)

The only way to be certain that the void between the bottom of the floor and the ceiling of the garage is properly setup, air sealed. and insulated is to pull down the ceiling.  

Don't go dumping hot air into the void as it will also dump moisture into the void leading to other issues down the road.


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## Ashful (Aug 22, 2013)

semipro said:


> Even if the garage ceiling is insulated the fiberglass is probably not in contact with your bedroom floors. Air circulating above the insulation will make the floors cold.
> I like the packed cellulose option. I think it will achieve your goals without a complete teardown. I'm not sure that "dense packing" is even required in this case. A medium or loose pack cellulose blow-in may achieve what you need.


 
I suspect the "dense packing" is aimed at avoiding the phenomena you describe in your first two sentences.  A looser packing will settle, allowing an air space between the insulation and floor.  If the ends of each joist bay are sealed, no biggie.  But if cold air is getting in there (eg. woodgeek's block wall scenario), then the loose fill may achieve nothing.

Area rugs are indeed a good suggestion.  We have a very old house with wood floors and zero insulation anywhere.  We have area rugs on most of our wood floors, using them more to define "areas" in each room (large rooms) than anything else, but they do keep the feet warmer.  I usually wear slippers in the house, but my wife and kids are usually barefoot.


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## Bster13 (Aug 22, 2013)

If you radiant floor heating, you wouldn't necessarily have to have your electric bill go up if u used some pex, and outside solar array and a circulator pump:



(This video is just the basics, but yeah, folks run radiant floor heating off a system like this as well)



Beer Belly said:


> I did check around a couple of openings in the garage ceiling, and it is insulated, probably not very well though.....Wife wants a quick fix, but I'd rather tear it apart and do what really needs to be done. A heated floor sounds great, but the Wife already freaks when our electric bill goes up even $5. I'm just gonna have to tell her to live with it, or do it my way.....and then duck


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## semipro (Aug 22, 2013)

Joful said:


> I suspect the "dense packing" is aimed at avoiding the phenomena you describe in your first two sentences. A looser packing will settle, allowing an air space between the insulation and floor. If the ends of each joist bay are sealed, no biggie. But if cold air is getting in there (eg. woodgeek's block wall scenario), then the loose fill may achieve nothing.
> 
> Area rugs are indeed a good suggestion. We have a very old house with wood floors and zero insulation anywhere. We have area rugs on most of our wood floors, using them more to define "areas" in each room (large rooms) than anything else, but they do keep the feet warmer. I usually wear slippers in the house, but my wife and kids are usually barefoot.


 
The actual specs for "dense pack" are pretty rigorous as far as density.  A medium pack, which is much more achievable, even with equipment available at big box stores, should still result in intimate contact between the insulation and floor preventing the air flow issue.


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## woodgeek (Aug 22, 2013)

From the OP, it sounds like the sills are NOT tied into the floor joist bays, and not a huge amount of air leakage. I would still pore over the garage drywall looking for openings to the framing, and caulk/can foam any I find.

If the bays are empty now, cellulose is def the way to go.  My guy densepacked a whole 30' long bay from a single 3" hole near the middle.  IF they are already insulated, I would try airsealing the garage and do one winter on it to see if that fixes it before doing something more aggressive.  As for the loose/dense fill issue, the material is cheap, and dense will provide airsealing (believe it or not).


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## woodgeek (Aug 22, 2013)

Beer Belly said:


> No garage smells leaking into the bedroom above. The garage has the last 8 feet enclosed as a laundry room making it too tight a fit for a car, so just basically storage, and is half foundation with a finished and insulated walls on one side....on the other side of the garage is the lower level family room (split level ranch)


 
S'cool.  Sad story....I have a friend whose mom did herself in with the 'running car in garage' 30 yrs ago.  CO leakage into the bedrooms overhead nearly killed her three daughters too, and left one with permanent brain damage.  IMO, I think 'airsealing the attached garage' will eventually become a code and resale/inspection issue.


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## bag of hammers (Aug 22, 2013)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> There is a ceramic micro bead powder that can be mixed into cheap flat latex paint that provides the required flame spread,


 
Interesting - do you have more info?  (I'd PM you but thinking others may also want to know more..?....)


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## kingquad (Aug 22, 2013)

woodgeek said:


> S'cool. Sad story....I have a friend whose mom did herself in with the 'running car in garage' 30 yrs ago. CO leakage into the bedrooms overhead nearly killed her three daughters too, and left one with permanent brain damage. IMO, I think 'airsealing the attached garage' will eventually become a code and resale/inspection issue.


It already is in the new international building code as of 2012, but many municipalities are slow to adopt new codes.


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## Stegman (Aug 22, 2013)

Hogwildz said:


> You ever see the amount of toxic black smoke polyisocyanurate puts out when it burns? I would never put that anywhere near my house.
> I know our code requires not one, but two layers or sheetrock in garage ceilings with living space above. Might be just one for fire rated drywall, not sure there.
> Polyiso is bad stuff. Allowed or not, that stuff would never make it near this house.


 
While I don't share Hogwildz concerns about the product, I'm pretty sure he's right - most code requires that the foam board be covered with sheetrock.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Aug 22, 2013)

bag of hammers said:


> Interesting - do you have more info? (I'd PM you but thinking others may also want to know more..?....)


 
This is a link to the paint additive http://www.hytechceramics.com/flameretardant.html

Dow makes the laminated OSB/foam panel and this is sold at building supply and home improvement centers  http://www.homedepot.com/p/Barricad...all-Panels-OVRX2496R12/203640690#.Uha2slSSZIg

There are other panels as well, basically, a large number of materials can be laminated to foam to provide the required flame spread ratings.

I'm looking at doing the walls in the garage (which is a garage under) a bit later on and have been looking at a number of options.  I have to decide if I want to be able to attach things to the walls when I'm done.

As always when mucking around a house have a chat with the building inspector what passes for code in one location would fail at another.


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## jharkin (Aug 22, 2013)

semipro said:


> The actual specs for "dense pack" are pretty rigorous as far as density. A medium pack, which is much more achievable, even with equipment available at big box stores, should still result in intimate contact between the insulation and floor preventing the air flow issue.


 
A good read on Dense packing

http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-043-dont-be-dense/?searchterm=dont be dense


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