# Tribute to the recent fallen..



## Swedishchef (Jun 4, 2014)

Hey guys

It's not often that Canada makes the news and unfortunately in this case it is not for a good reason.

3 RCMP officers have been killed this evening in Moncton, New Brunswick. Another 2 have been shot and are in hospital.

I am not opening any debates about guns...just wanted to pass along thoughts and prayers to family members and the fallen's fellow officers.

Hug your loved ones tonight.

Andrew


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## DBNH22 (Jun 5, 2014)

That's too bad about the three mounties.  

Contrary to popular belief, bad things do happen outside the US.

Do you remember Karla Homolka and Paul Bernardo Swedish?


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## Swedishchef (Jun 5, 2014)

Yes it is sad indeed. and it is still ongoing.

It's one thing for a police officer to be shot while responding to an armed robbery and a gunfire exchange begin but it's another to get a call for an armed suspect and be completely ambushed on arrival. you can not predict the unpredictable....

I certainly do remember them. they were quite sick.

Violence exists in every country. Some more and some less. but if 1% of people are violent than that number represents a lot more bodies in a larger populated country. 

ANdrew


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## DBNH22 (Jun 5, 2014)

Here's a link to the story.

Hopefully they'll catch the guy.

What you said about the 1% being violent....

It's very sad that so few can make life miserable for the rest of us that just want to go about our lives peacefully without bothering or hurting others.

Down here in the states we're seeing increased gang violence in the more rural areas now.


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## Swedishchef (Jun 5, 2014)

I know the story quite well. I live 400 miles from where it is taking place and I have friends who are involved in this. It's not cool.

Sigh


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## Fi-Q (Jun 5, 2014)

Pretty bad story. I have friends and familly in Moncton that are sleeping in there basement since yesterday.

I tought about you Andrew when I got the news......

Hope no more blod will flow before they catch him


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## begreen (Jun 5, 2014)

Seattle Pacific University, a Christian college, just had a shooter go nuts. Fortunately he was subdued, but he still killed one person and wounded 2 more. When are we going to end this violence?


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## begreen (Jun 6, 2014)

Sounds like they just arrested the alleged shooter in Moncton. 
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/07/w...rampage-that-left-3-canadian-police-dead.html


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## Swedishchef (Jun 6, 2014)

begreen said:


> Sounds like they just arrested the alleged shooter in Moncton.
> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/07/w...rampage-that-left-3-canadian-police-dead.html


Yeah, he came out of the woods soaking wet and said "I am done". They had him surrounded and I guess he was tired of being a wet rat.......I am surprised he gave up that easily and glad he didn't take his life.

Seattle was quite a mess..I read a student tackled him while he was reloading his shotgun. That person is a hero amongst heroes.


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## begreen (Jun 6, 2014)

I'm glad it is over for that community. 

Yes, the SPU student is a brave kid. He pepper sprayed the shooter, then tackled him. Once he was down other students piled on to hold him until the police arrived.


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## Swedishchef (Jun 6, 2014)

And today at his first appearance there was not request for a psych assessment. Good stuff.
Gonna be a sad memorial next week. I wish I could make it...


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## Lake Girl (Jun 6, 2014)

Andrew, thoughts go out to you and your colleagues...  I always struggle to understand what twists in an individual that leads them to do something like this.  Keep safe yourself.

Heard about the Seattle shooting but haven't checked on the details.  Brave and quick thinking student seems to have minimized the damage...


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## BrotherBart (Jun 6, 2014)

Personally I think that anybody that doesn't relate sitting in the bedroom massacring people in a video game with deciding to go do it for real is an idiot.  

Quit worrying about if your kid is looking at porn or smoking dope, and start looking at how many kills they are scoring on Mortal Combat.


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## begreen (Jun 7, 2014)

It's looking like the Seattle kid had some mental health problems that the system didn't deal with and his mom wouldn't let him get help. The kid was calling out for help years before. As in other cases, the warning signs were there, but not acted on. It's a fine line the legal system treads when dealing with mental health. Often this is an area of frequent budget cuts when money is tight.
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Seattle-shooting-suspect-reported-a-rage-inside-262235681.html


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## begreen (Jun 7, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> Personally I think that anybody that doesn't relate sitting in the bedroom massacring people in a video game with deciding to go do it for real is an idiot.
> 
> Quit worrying about if your kid is looking at porn or smoking dope, and start looking at how many kills they are scoring on Mortal Combat.


If that was so Japan would have one of the highest massacre rates and South Korea would be off the charts. Instead it is quite the opposite. There was a local program on this topic. The numbers don't show a correlation between video games and violent crime, though many seem to think so.




http://videogames.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=003627
http://www.pbs.org/kcts/videogamerevolution/impact/myths.html
http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsl.../October/violent-video-games-and-young-people
This is another view at stats that seem to correlate better:
http://www.newgamernation.com/violence-and-video-games-part-9-the-statisticsconclusion/


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## BrotherBart (Jun 7, 2014)

Look at the most popular video games in Japan. Kinda lite on shoot'em ups.

http://www.technobuffalo.com/2013/01/28/top-30-best-selling-games-in-japan-for-2012/


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## begreen (Jun 7, 2014)

True, shooters are not part of Japanese society. This correlates to almost no handguns there. South Korea, which plays video games as a national addiction tracks closer to American games.


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## Swedishchef (Jun 7, 2014)

Lake Girl said:


> Andrew, thoughts go out to you and your colleagues...  I always struggle to understand what twists in an individual that leads them to do something like this.  Keep safe yourself.
> 
> Heard about the Seattle shooting but haven't checked on the details.  Brave and quick thinking student seems to have minimized the damage...


 

Thanks...I always try to be safe.

Yes, a student saved many lives and is a true hero.


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## begreen (Jun 7, 2014)

The student that subdued the shooter is getting married soon. Today, their wedding gift registry was completely filled and now donations for the young couple have been pouring in. This is a bit tough and overwhelming for the guy who prefers to keep a low profile and is quite unused to all the public attention. 
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Donations-pour-in-for-Seattle-campus-shooting-hero-262250211.html


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## BrotherBart (Jun 7, 2014)

Thanks for letting me know about the fund. Young man didn't hesitate, just moved. One in at least a million.


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## webbie (Jun 9, 2014)

Hard for me to relate video games and murder - because hundreds of millions of people around the world play games big time - yet in most other cultures (and even here, by statistics), they don't act out. 

We could go further and say that Chess or certain card games - football, for sure, etc. all cause violence...

If I had to pontificate on the subject, I'd say that I think it's a big combo of things - poverty, hopelessness, consumer culture (which often means a lack of personal connections), a world in flux, the ease of gaining weapons, media culture (copycats, etc.) and probably a lot of other factors too.

If it were easy to isolate out one or two parts we could do something about it. As it stands, I think the murder and violent crimes are still on a downward curve (stats against population) - even here in the USA. 

We definitely have a violent culture, though. In a few ways, that's a good thing...in that, over history, that made the European and other powers leave us alone. But now that we have fewer real threats of that type, we have to focus that warrior spirit on other things....

Who knows? There was always lots of violence - the Mafia, Prohibition, Civil Rights and on and on. Probably less today than ever.


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## webbie (Jun 9, 2014)

Once the damage is done...by poverty, hopelessness, family, etc. it is very difficult for outsiders (social workers) to fix. Every time I delve into the field (as a volunteer, etc.), I find it's pretty much fighting a losing battle. It's quite depressing....

The real fix - IMHO - is to avoid the causes in the first place.
When it comes to mental health, you can't fix all of it because some is genetic. But it may be possible to create conditions where less of it expresses itself in a violent fashion. 

I think I read that Social Services are the 2nd largest industry in Western MA. So it's not like we don't spend a lot of time and money on these things. However, IMHO, there is no amount which can alleviate all the potential problems. Well, I guess we are getting something for the money - among the very lowest murder rates in the USA:
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state#MRord

As you can see by the chart at the bottom, the national rate is headed down and down. It's just the media and the randomness of these acts which shocks.


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## ChipTam (Jun 10, 2014)

Swedishchef said:


> Thanks...I always try to be safe.
> 
> Yes, a student saved many lives and is a true hero.



My wife and I were in Moncton the day before the shooting on our way to Newfoundland.  Yes, it was a very sad day for everyone.

ChipTam


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## Swedishchef (Jun 10, 2014)

I am currently in Moncton right now. Take care.


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## BrotherBart (Jun 10, 2014)

Hell it happened again today in Vancouver. We live in a world full of insane people.

And before some gun nut says carrying will prevent it, a guy carrying in Las Vegas just got himself killed because he was "packing".


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## begreen (Jun 11, 2014)

This has happened 74 times *in schools* since Sandy Hook. It won't stop until collectively we all say - enough!

http://www.king5.com/news/local/74-school-shootings-since-Sandy-Hook-262629761.html


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## mass_burner (Jun 11, 2014)

begreen said:


> If that was so Japan would have one of the highest massacre rates and South Korea would be off the charts. Instead it is quite the opposite. There was a local program on this topic. The numbers don't show a correlation between video games and violent crime, though many seem to think so.



in fact, some PTSD treatments now incorporate violent video games. It seems "reliving" the trauma in a safe setting reduces the anxiety.


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## mass_burner (Jun 11, 2014)

begreen said:


> This has happened 74 times *in schools* since Sandy Hook. It won't stop until collectively we all say - enough!
> l



then what? there is no feasible solution.


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## Grisu (Jun 11, 2014)

begreen said:


> This has happened 74 times *in schools* since Sandy Hook. It won't stop until collectively we all say - enough!
> 
> http://www.king5.com/news/local/74-school-shootings-since-Sandy-Hook-262629761.html



That's what they come up with as "solutions": 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ented-to-protect-children-from-shootings.html


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## Warm_in_NH (Jun 11, 2014)

When I was in school in south Florida in the 80's we had two uniformed and armed cops in the school all day every day. We entered and left through the front entrance as the rest of the property was surrounded with a ten foot tall fence with barbed wire on top. When we were moving out of there they were in talks about installing metal detectors at the entrance. 

Was it ideal, no, did it do a good job at keeping the peace, yes, would it prevent what we're seeing today in schools, most likely. 

Bad stuff and copy cats have always been around, the new trend we're seeing is 24/7 media coverage of every little thing. Even if it were one murder a day in this country it would be on your TV all day until the next one came along. Turn off your TV's, hug your kids, check their schools and find out what their security protocols are, and get involved if you don't like it.


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## valley ranch (Jun 11, 2014)

That makes sense John, to have security in schools, just like in a court house.

Richard

Was that a public school?


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## begreen (Jun 11, 2014)

Treating the symptoms is one solution, but it doesn't fix the problem. Maybe it would be better to look at and understand why the US has such a high incidence of these shooting?


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## valley ranch (Jun 11, 2014)

Blurts will be there with a knife, gun, club or some other weapon. I say guard the kids just like we guard our money.


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## begreen (Jun 12, 2014)

And how do we guard our police, as in the Las Vegas shooting?


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## Lake Girl (Jun 12, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> in fact, some PTSD treatments now incorporate violent video games. It seems "reliving" the trauma in a safe setting reduces the anxiety.



It is called systemic desensitization ... it is a technique that is also used with commercial airline pilots.  The re-occurance of stressful malfunctions (or multiple malfunctions) in flight sims effectively inoculates anxiety when faced with the real situation (that's how the pilot was able to keep cool under pressure and  "land" on the river).  



webbie said:


> The real fix - IMHO - is to avoid the causes in the first place.
> When it comes to mental health, you can't fix all of it because some is genetic. But it may be possible to create conditions where less of it expresses itself in a violent fashion.



A family friend who was a GP decided he wanted to work in the psychiatric field.  I don't think he made it through the additional training as he was so discouraged.  Mental health issues cannot be "fixed" like a large number of health problems i.e. cast a broken bone, surgical intervention, etc.  Success in mental health is measured in incredibly small steps to make the patient's life "more normal".   The other part of the problem is that the patient stops taking medications because they feel better and are unaware of the return of the downward spiral.

There is truth to genetics playing a part in health issues - including mental health.  We lost a nephew to suicide - his birth Mom, half-sister, grandmother and great-grandmother all have (had) anxiety and depression issues.  He tried a large variety of medications, electro-shock but nothing helped control the anxiety - he said the depression part was easy in comparison.  There is also a greater stigma placed on men with mental health issues and that added a further burden to his condition.  From our limited experience, there still isn't enough help out there.  Unfortunately, while the medical profession has made great strides in understanding the larger picture of how the body works, they still have not worked out the subtleties or the interaction among different systems within the body.  Doctors are taught to focus on one system in isolation but fail to understand how a disruption in one system can create a domino effect into others.


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## Warm_in_NH (Jun 12, 2014)

valley ranch said:


> Was that a public school?



Yep, public middle school in Ft. Lauderdale FL. It was fairly segregated into three groups that didn't particularly get along VERY different than New England. 



begreen said:


> Treating the symptoms is one solution, but it doesn't fix the problem. Maybe it would be better to look at and understand why the US has such a high incidence of these shooting?


 
It's not just in the U.S. China has seen an increase in mass stabbings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China_(2010–12)

If you google this stuff you'll find it's really world wide, but our media just covers the stories that boost ratings and revenue, not necessarily the whole news. Why do some stories make national news for years (just saw one on a little girl that went missing years ago overseas while on vacation) while others get a 5 second spot on a local station and are never covered again (local girl went missing a year ago, long since forgotten)?

Lake Girl raises a lot of valid points with human behavior and inherited traits, the mind is an amazing thing. My ex decided to go on in her adult education after earning her law degree and resumed her earlier studies in psychology. It was extremely frustrating for her, having no black and white answers to anything, being able to read both sides of an argument and being able to fully agree with each conflicting side once you looked over all the points that were made. It's the human mind, I highly doubt we'll ever have even a thorough understanding of it.

Maybe we need to start keeping score again in kids sports, letting Tommy beat the snot out of Billy so they can make up and be friends again the next day, take the helmets off and let them see how much it hurts when you experience pain. I have no idea. The only real change I've seen since I was raised (I had Nintendo and shoot em up games then too) is that we seem to be shielding kids from life more than we ever used to.  

I'm just looking at it like any other issue, there's a problem, it's increased since "X", what factors have changed prior to "X" that led to this increase?


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## mass_burner (Jun 12, 2014)

all species are not perfect, especially humans. reminds me a Sandburg poem:

_*Why is the sun a red ball in the six o’clock mist?   *_
_*Why is the moon a tumbling chimney?… tumbling … tumbling … “I’d give you the shirt off my back” *_
_*… And I’ll kill you if my head goes wrong.*_


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## webbie (Jun 12, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> all species are not perfect, especially humans. reminds me a Sandburg poem:
> 
> _*Why is the sun a red ball in the six o’clock mist?   *_
> _*Why is the moon a tumbling chimney?… tumbling … tumbling … “I’d give you the shirt off my back” *_
> _*… And I’ll kill you if my head goes wrong.*_



Reminds me of a Procol Harum verse....

"My old dog's a good old dog
My old man's a silly old sod
The human face is a terrible place
Choose your own examples"


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## begreen (Jun 12, 2014)

Seems to be the rule of the day. Argue about it and do little or nothing. Comparing to other nations means squat. This is happening in our own backyard. It is our children and our problem. After 74 repeats in 1.5 years is a shrug of the shoulders all it's worth?

Exactly where is the money going to come from for guarding our children when the current attitude is cut anything for the social good?

The lyric that comes to mind is from King Crimson:

"The wall on which the prophets wrote
Is cracking at the seams.
Upon the instruments of death
The sunlight brightly gleams.
When every man is torn apart
With nightmares and with dreams,
Will no one lay the laurel wreath
As silence drowns the screams."


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## valley ranch (Jun 13, 2014)

I'm guessing you/yours have a plan.


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## mass_burner (Jun 13, 2014)

But it doesn't only happen in schools, movie theaters, malls, businesses, etc. Can we make everywhere and everyone safe all the time?


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## Lake Girl (Jun 13, 2014)

Disenfranchisement from society ... anger and frustration with their life finally finds a target they feel are to blame?  How do you fix internal thought processes that derail?  For the young man from Moncton, NS, his parents went to the police prior to the shootings to seek help for their son.  Since there was no direct stated threat, there was nothing the police could do at that time.  Unless there is a stated threat to themselves or others, psych evaluation isn't an option.  He's getting that now but too late for the three Mounties who have died and their families and the two that were injured.

Article on "school shootings" ... http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2014/06/how_many_school_shooting_incid.html
While you may be able to secure the building, what about the entire school property?  Do you lose more personal freedoms in return for security?  Or is security just an illusion?

An interview with Peter Lanza, father of  Adam Lanza who was responsible for the Sandy Hook deaths.  Wow, a whole lot was going on there...
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2014/03/17/140317fa_fact_solomon?currentPage=all


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## mass_burner (Jun 13, 2014)

Lake Girl said:


> Or is security just an illusion?



yes. Unless you live in North Korea. But then there's that eating grass thing.


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## Warm_in_NH (Jun 13, 2014)

BG, I put the China link in there not to distract from what is going on here at home; but because you eluded that this was unique to the US, when in fact it is not.

I gave no shoulder shrug, I merely suggested that maybe people should look at and focus on what they can control instead of wishing for complete control over everything which it seems you think can be accomplished through legislation?  

None of the above is a brush off to the brutality of murder, however, overall, violent crimes are decreasing not increasing. Again, 24/7 media will have you thinking the end is near, but if murder is how it ends for you or me our odds are improving daily.


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## begreen (Jun 13, 2014)

The murder rate has been decreasing and this is a good trend, but the number of mass shootings at educational institutions is recently on the rise. That's definitely not what I want to see. I don't advocate complete control at all, though it has worked in some countries. Sorry if it came off that way. What I would like to see are some common sense measures and a lot more attention paid to mental health issues. I agree the media is part of the issue. They tend to sensationalize and overdramatize situations in their endless quest for ears and eyeballs to satisfy their Neilsen ratings and boost ad dollars. That should stop. 

Interestingly, yesterday I heard from a friend's 21 yr old daughter that is currently living in Morocco. They don't allow hand guns or rifles there. She asked her friends there what would happen if someone just pulled a pulled out a gun in a cafe or on street and they looked at her like she was crazy because it's not even a possibility. If there is one gun related homicide in a year it's a big deal there.


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## Warm_in_NH (Jun 13, 2014)

begreen said:


> The murder rate has been decreasing and this is a good trend, but the number of mass shootings at educational institutions is recently on the rise. That's definitely not what I want to see. I don't advocate complete control at all, though it has worked in some countries. Sorry if it came off that way. What I would like to see are some common sense measures and a lot more attention paid to mental health issues. I agree the media is part of the issue. They tend to sensationalize and overdramatize situations in their endless quest for ears and eyeballs to satisfy their Neilsen ratings and boost ad dollars. That should stop.
> 
> Interestingly, yesterday I heard from a friend's 21 yr old daughter that is currently living in Morocco. They don't allow hand guns or rifles there. She asked her friends there what would happen if someone just pulled a pulled out a gun in a cafe or on street and they looked at her like she was crazy because it's not even a possibility. If there is one gun related homicide in a year it's a big deal there.



Yep. Shootings are rare there but they do happen, much more common, and more so than here, bombings.

"On April 28, 2011, in Marrakesh, a terrorist detonated a remote-controlled bomb in the Argana Café in Jamaa El Fnaa square, a well known landmark in tourist guidebooks. The attack killed 17 people and injured 23, predominantly Western tourists. The bomber was apprehended within a week and was sentenced to death."

There are several others to go with that. 

Again, nuts everywhere. Seems killers generally don't follow the laws either. Go figure.

We agree it would be nice to see an end to these tragic events. Whether or not it will happen or how to get there is a debate I'd rather have in person, as I'm sure we'll never agree but will all raise valid points. 
No sense in sending this thread to the ash can over it. 

Let's hope it's a long time before a mass killing makes headlines again. 

Cheers. 

John.


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## Swedishchef (Jun 15, 2014)

So, I am back. I worked in MOncton for 8 days, including the day of the memorial. I had a tough task that day (don't want to go into details) that I am happy I accomplished.

One thing is certain: the people in Moncton (or the Maritimes) are officially the most supportive in Canada. The people of Moncton showed SOOO MUCH SUPPORT for the RCMP. There was kids walking on streets (where the murders happened) with signs that say "WE LOVE MOUNTIES", chalk messages on the paved driveways,  people that would not let us pay for meals, coffee, etc. I had a splitting headache and stopped at a pharmacy: The pharmacist refused to let me pay..I got into a friendly argument and I won (and paid for my pills..). We were 25 at a restaurant, the entire staff came out and told us the meal was on the house. A lady at Starbucks gave me 20 prepaid gift cards (with a value of $25 each), it goes on and on and on.

I just pray this never happens again...

Andrew


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## Warm_in_NH (Jun 16, 2014)

You guys earned it Andrew. 
Thanks and be safe.


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## ChipTam (Jun 16, 2014)

Warm_in_NH said:


> You guys earned it Andrew.
> Thanks and be safe.



Yes, the same well wishes from Nfld.

ChipTam


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## Swedishchef (Jun 16, 2014)

Thanks John. Very kind words.

Chip! Long time no see.  While over there I ran into one of my best friends from Newfoundland. He is posted in Gander. On Friday we spoke to each other (about the incident) not expecting to be called out. Monday we were having a few cold ones after a 14 hour day. Small small world. Newfoundland sent over about 35 people to help out.
A


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## ChipTam (Jun 17, 2014)

Swedishchef said:


> Thanks John. Very kind words.
> 
> Chip! Long time no see.  While over there I ran into one of my best friends from Newfoundland. He is posted in Gander. On Friday we spoke to each other (about the incident) not expecting to be called out. Monday we were having a few cold ones after a 14 hour day. Small small world. Newfoundland sent over about 35 people to help out.
> A



Hi Andrew,

    Glad to hear you're back in Gaspe safe and sound.  Sounds like it was a difficult temporary posting.  We're back at our summer home on the Bonavista Peninsular about half way between St. John's and Gander.  Lots of former RCMP in our tiny village.  I can think of three former officers and one active officer.  One of the former officers (our next-door neighbor) was assistant director of the RCMP in Ottawa until a couple of years ago.

    By the way, I met one of your collegues (actually a member of Surete de Quebec) in a professional way just south of Riviere de Loup last year.  She was a very pretty officer with a cute pony tail but our meeting cost me $200.

All the best,
                   Chip


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