# Really bad/annoying problem with my pellet stove.  Please help?



## eyeaml337 (Dec 28, 2008)

Hi everyone.  Hoping for some help.

This is my stove:
http://www.englanderstoves.com/55-shp240.html

The basic explanation of what is happening in my stove is that every time i turn it on even if i set the heat range very low the pellets will pile up in my burn pot all the way to where they drop down and in.  this basically results in no heat and worry from me that something is seriously wrong with my stove. 

I will try and snap a picture in case someone needs to visually see what is going on.

It usually takes an hour to build up.  The pellets that are in the pot just dont burn off like they should I guess. 

I have never had this problem until 2-3 weeks ago.

The stove is brand new.  I ran about 30 bags through with no problem earlier in the season but i wasnt leaving it on for more than 4-8 hours at a time.  now I leave it on for the same or longer and end up with this problem.

I have called the Englander tech support which is a giant pain in the ass so far to deal with and the best solution they have some up with is sending me some “magical parts” that “almost guaranteed will fix the problem”

I have cleaned the chimney and the entire interior of the stove in every way you can imagine.  I have searched and done pretty much all the standard suggestions that people have posted here and other places.  Followed the stickys etc.  No luck ... 

Oh and I burn NewEngland Wood Pellets.  I was told they are the best I can get. http://www.pelletheat.com/

if anyone can help that would be awesome!


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## crausch (Dec 28, 2008)

Have you tried a bag or two of another brand of pellets, just to rule out that the pellets are not your problem. Maybe you have a few bad bags in your batch.


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## lpgreg (Dec 28, 2008)

A couple things come to mind, A faulty control board, or open up the draft to burn faster.


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## pelletizer (Dec 28, 2008)

Does the stove have a low fuel feed rate ajustment and low burn air adjusment?
Sounds like to much fuel is being dumped in and maybe not enough air to complete the burn?


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## eyeaml337 (Dec 28, 2008)

codebum said:
			
		

> Have you tried a bag or two of another brand of pellets, just to rule out that the pellets are not your problem. Maybe you have a few bad bags in your batch.



i have tried many different brands just to make sure im not crazy on this.  normally i can figure this kind of thing out but this has me stumped like you wouldnt believe.  NEWP are really the best too.  I know people that stock them exclusively as well as owners that burn nothing but them.  but just to make sure i tried some british stuff some agway stuff and wally world bags lol as well as a few others i have come across - pretty much anything i never tried before.  each bag same problem


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## eyeaml337 (Dec 28, 2008)

lpgreg said:
			
		

> A couple things come to mind, A faulty control board, or open up the draft to burn faster.



wish i could - there is no manual draft and Englander hasnt told me if there is a way to increase via the board or not.  i know there is only burn "mode A" and cant change it


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## eyeaml337 (Dec 28, 2008)

pelletizer said:
			
		

> Does the stove have a low fuel feed rate ajustment and low burn air adjusment?
> Sounds like to much fuel is being dumped in and maybe not enough air to complete the burn?



yes it does have the adjustment available - it is at its lowest setting.  every control goes 1-9

factory "standard" changed at some point but i have no idea when.

user to be 

low burn feed - 1
low burn air - 5
air on temp - 1

now it is 1-9-1

That is what I have it set to burn at now.  I also made sure my fresh air feed wasnt clogged by anything.  I even put in a new pipe for it.


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## eyeaml337 (Dec 28, 2008)

Deffy said:
			
		

> did they say what the magical parts are? a working combustion blower perhaps? englander service is usually excellent.
> 
> give them a chance i'm sure they will get your stove up and running properly.
> 
> ...




unfortunately my faith in Englander is lacking.  This is the second stove that we have had.  The first one after 3 weeks of phone tag and calls etc they finally replaced the entire unit.  

as for pellets - i have tried several different brands all with the same results - some actually built up faster.  others a little slower.  

I store 2 full tons of pellets inside my house about 10 feet away from the stove.  i also have a dehumidifier going next to them  they should be dry.

Pictures will be incoming.


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## eyeaml337 (Dec 28, 2008)

one last thing.  

as of 2pm EST i decided to disassemble my entire chimney from the stove and blow out with my compressor.  i did find a chunk of cake probably about 4" long but only 1/4" high so not a clog ... i must have somehow missed it when i cleaned earlier.  it was nasty cake so ... 

i used a flashlight to visually inspect every piece of pipe - no major or even minor build up but i cleaned the heck out of it just in case one by one.  so DEFINITELY a clean chimney.  also blew out the fans and the cold air intake on the stove while i had the compressor up and running.

clean clean clean

I then took a shop vac to the interior.  there was maybe 2 specs of dust when i was done.  

I am now firing up and will take some pictures - gives me an excuse to use my new Rebel XSI *woot*


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## pelletizer (Dec 28, 2008)

Maybe Mike will catch your thread and help out sounds like you have gone above and beyond to fix the problem.
1-5-1 does not sound right to me shoule be more like 5-5-1 but that would make you bump even more pellets in the burn pot correct?


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## eyeaml337 (Dec 28, 2008)

pelletizer said:
			
		

> Maybe Mike will catch your thread and help out sounds like you have gone above and beyond to fix the problem.
> 1-5-1 does not sound right to me shoule be more like 5-5-1 but that would make you bump even more pellets in the burn pot correct?



yes 1 is the lowest and what my feed rate and air on temp is at the moment.


also forgot to mention what they were sending me.  He said something about a burn pot gasket and another thing for the pot its a new plate "with like little weird wings" that will supposedly help somehow ... They had me reset the control board as well.


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## heathracing (Dec 28, 2008)

i have the same type problem but my stove is 6 yrs old and been burning that way for a long time. im tired of it. yor 1-9-1 settings should only affect you burn on 1 and 2 heat settings not 3-6 from what ive read. also i would check your door and glass seals the gasket on the hinge side likes to push over and not seal on my pdv 25 and i could move the glass around so i put some spacers behind the clamps to seal the glass
 hope this helps. did you check and see if the impeller came loose on the combustion blower it is only held on with a set screw


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## Lobstah (Dec 29, 2008)

Definitely sounds like an "air to the fire" problem.  Blower, OAK clog...or bad seals/gaskets on the door...can you tighten?...check ash pan, etc?

Jim


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## eyeaml337 (Dec 29, 2008)

heathracing said:
			
		

> i have the same type problem but my stove is 6 yrs old and been burning that way for a long time. im tired of it. yor 1-9-1 settings should only affect you burn on 1 and 2 heat settings not 3-6 from what ive read. also i would check your door and glass seals the gasket on the hinge side likes to push over and not seal on my pdv 25 and i could move the glass around so i put some spacers behind the clamps to seal the glass
> hope this helps. did you check and see if the impeller came loose on the combustion blower it is only held on with a set screw



triple checked the glass and gasket just now - seems fine no looseness at all.

took a look at the fan and it is tight as well.

I'm betting at this point that I may need to think about a new stove.  Unfortunately - it was bought from Lowe's and I highly doubt that they will return it.  One of the suggestions that came after last seasons 3 weeks of hell with tech support was to DOWNGRADE to a smaller stove.  It didn't make any logical sense to us so we opted to not do that.  the whole reason for buying this stove was the 240# hopper and the boasting that you can run it for long periods without having to really worry about it etc.  

I based my whole purchase on a few friends who have finished basements and heat entire houses (one smaller and three bigger than mine) with their stoves.  One has the http://www.englanderstoves.com/55-shp22.html which seems to be the same basic idea as mine but more attractive and pretty for aesthetic value i guess.  I know that the pellet stove is supposed to only be "supplemental" heating but ... I don't know anyone who owns one that supplements with it.  I know about 30 some odd people with pellet stoves and have helped install probably 15 of those.  Their smaller stoves seem to keep their houses at a very warm and cozy temp even in extreme cold.  I know circumstances cary house to house and let me just quickly say - my house is average size comparison wise.  i have better insulation (all new windows etc) and the airflow in the house is amazing.  problem is the damn stove.  i only know one person who bought the same model i have and they have not had these problems.  i guess my bad luck maybe.  but its very aggravating as you can see...

Anyhow, i got the stove, framed out the area that i keep it in properly insulated fireboard etc etc etc and last season we went through hell with Englander.  It would barely heat the small 10x10 area it was in let alone my home.  They agreed to replace it saying it must be defective.  We got a replacement in AUGUST.  Well ... no way to test in August ... I voiced this major concern back then.  They assured me there would be no problems yada yada yada ... well now its the second stove and its winter and we are having issues AGAIN.  We are getting cold and miserable lol

So now the drama begins with stove #2 it seems.  Meanwhile we are using the baseboard heaters but those are costly as heck.  1500w and we only have two hydronic.  They are expensive to replace the old style ones with the new hydronics.  

This is the basic overview ...


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## eyeaml337 (Dec 29, 2008)

Lobstah said:
			
		

> Definitely sounds like an "air to the fire" problem.  Blower, OAK clog...or bad seals/gaskets on the door...can you tighten?...check ash pan, etc?
> 
> Jim



checked all of that too.  including the ash pan.

also tried running with and without the OAK and still same issues.

I have yet to find a standout problem with the stove.  It is REALLY REALLY not a typical problem is what I have boiled down to.


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## eyeaml337 (Dec 29, 2008)

still no luck 

still no parts from Englander ... its been over a week now.  i know the holidays and all but this is costing me a LOT of money


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## eyeaml337 (Dec 29, 2008)

just received:

"PU-ADPBUF - AIR DEFLECTOR PLATE (BENT) FOR PUF STOVE"
"PU-BPCG BURN POT CRADLE GASKET FOR PUF FITS BETWEEN BURN POT" 

No instructions on how to actually *INSTALL* these items - and have been getting a busy signal since 5pm.  I believe they close at 6pm for tech support ... how effing wonderful


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## stoveguy2esw (Dec 29, 2008)

in the lower corners of the front of the stove there are 2 plates you lift out , also there are 2 more little panels which each have a screw holding them in place. these should be pulled usually about once per ton of fuel and the areas behind them vacuumed out, while these plates are removed , tap on the firewall to help shake any ash down which may be clinging to the baffling in this chamber as welll, this should allow the accumulated ash to be removed down at the bottom through the openings the screwed on plates cover.


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## eyeaml337 (Dec 29, 2008)

stoveguy2esw said:
			
		

> in the lower corners of the front of the stove there are 2 plates you lift out , also there are 2 more little panels which each have a screw holding them in place. these should be pulled usually about once per ton of fuel and the areas behind them vacuumed out, while these plates are removed , tap on the firewall to help shake any ash down which may be clinging to the baffling in this chamber as welll, this should allow the accumulated ash to be removed down at the bottom through the openings the screwed on plates cover.



Did that too :-D

I have the L-shaped ones and i took a blower and a shop vac to the stove as well.  I did get a decent amount of crud when i tapped on the firewall - maybe 2 cups worth.  Also cleaned the holes above the top of that metal flappy part 

i actually just got off the phone with tech support and after speaking with him he said he has had a few scattered calls about the same issue i am having but usually it is an adjustment of some kind and its fixed.  he said he notated my account with a recommendation for replacement if the problem persists after the test run with the gasket and bent plate thingy.  

the fire does look much stronger right now.  i will keep the fingers crossed and hope for the best.

i am running at HR 5 and BS 5 for 2 hours and see if it does it.  If not I will crank to 7&7;wait 2 hours see what happens and if successful up to 9&9;.  If not I guess it's time to look for a new stove :-/


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## PunKid8888 (Dec 30, 2008)

Mike will set you straight


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## eyeaml337 (Dec 30, 2008)

it took a little longer to build it back up to the problem levels (~30 minutes longer) but it eventually did it.  So I guess ... new stove per their recommendation.  now the problem is ... what stove ... do i take the same one (stove #3) or get a different one and eat the cost difference!?  

Ive paid Lowe's delivery TWICE already and was given a hard time about delivery into my basement even though it is easy access and only 4 steps down via a rather large bulhead.  So I can only imagine that in the dead of winter a replacement wont be easy and probably not free ... which will make things worse for me ... meanwhile ... no heat from the stove ... i am kind of at my wits end and really beyond pissed at this point.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 30, 2008)

eyeaml337,

Could you tell us about your exhaust system?

Does the owners manual have a set of timings for the feed system?

Lastly, have you verified that your air path is sealed?


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## eyeaml337 (Dec 30, 2008)

SmokeyTheBear said:
			
		

> eyeaml337,
> 
> Could you tell us about your exhaust system?
> 
> ...



Sure thing.  My pipe/chimney is set up that basically right out of the stove is my T and then that shoots upward.  i then have a 90 degree elbow that goes 2' into the thimble and through the wall (i believe this is another 2' or so) once outside i had to go up off the ground so i finished it off with another 90 degree and a straight shot up and then the standard kit cap out there.  (i can illustrate this if needed via my awesome MSPaint skills lol) i was considering potentially getting another T with a cleanout for the outside pipe but was told that it woudlnt be needed and also upon visual inspection there was no debris or clog at that 90 degree upward elbow there.

The fresh air is set up a good 6' away from the exhaust and isnt clogged

I have gone piece by piece and quadruple checked everything for air flow out of the pipe.  nothing leaks that i can see, feel, or detect.  Everything seems ok ... obvioulsy not but whatever is wrong with this thing - i am absolutely AMAZED


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 30, 2008)

Is that flue all three inch stuff?

If you do an effective flue length calculation I think you may be a bit over the recommended number.

Somewhere in a fairly recent posting the numbers are provided.

Here is one such reference:

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewreply/310416/


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## eyeaml337 (Dec 30, 2008)

SmokeyTheBear said:
			
		

> Is that flue all three inch stuff?
> 
> If you do an effective flue length calculation I think you may be a bit over the recommended number.
> 
> ...



Yes it's all 3" but I don't think I over did it since it was the kit they sell


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 30, 2008)

Your tee and two 90 elbows starts you off at 15 and that is about the limit for a 3 inch flue.

Your 2' + 2 ' of horizontal adds 4 to that making it 19 which is over and then how much vertical pipe do you have ?

I think you may need 4" flue in order for that poor stove to properly draw.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 30, 2008)

BTW if this is the case I think it maybe the reason the other stove also had problems.


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## MCPO (Dec 30, 2008)

eyeaml337 said:
			
		

> SmokeyTheBear said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Doesn`t sound like a very efficient exhaust vent to me, especially at only 3". No wonder you have problems. There was no debris or clogs probably cause nothing got thru it, maybe not even the exhaust.
 But as you say you are " pissed " huh?


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## eyeaml337 (Dec 30, 2008)

well every store sells the same 3" pipe kit for pellet stoves, and via store/englander/home depot/lowes/friends/family that have pellet stoves I was told that the kit was fine and that I could add if needed.  I think we added a single 90 degree to the kit.  other than that its what came in the box.  ripping my 3" out and replacing with 4" doesnt sound like a good time at all and i checked with the depot and lowes and neither has the 4" pellet pipe in a kit or sold standalone ...


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## eyeaml337 (Dec 30, 2008)

also, on the outside it is a pretty strong amount of air/wind/smoke/etc blowing out - and when the stove is hot and operational it gets out there very well ... the first unit was tested by a tech from an auth reseller of englander in my area on site at one point and he couldnt figure out what was wrong with it either so it was deemed defective.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 30, 2008)

Yes every store sells 3" vent kits and yes you can in fact add to it.    

However, that third 90 degree elbow is more than a minor addition (it is the same as adding 10' of vertical or 5' of horizontal vent pipe). 

Why do you actually need the that additional 90 degree (air flow restriction)  bend?

Since we are examining your air piping what kind of weather/small animal protection do you have on the end of the OAK?


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## eyeaml337 (Dec 30, 2008)

SmokeyTheBear said:
			
		

> Yes every store sells 3" vent kits and yes you can in fact add to it.
> 
> However, that third 90 degree elbow is more than a minor addition (it is the same as adding 10' of vertical or 5' of horizontal vent pipe).
> 
> ...



So I needed it to get the exhaust higher off the ground really but I can probably figure a way around it such as large rocks instead of dirt and leaves etc.  I just didnt want the ground to go up in flames.  it is approximately 32" off the ground without running it upwards.  I could just take off that 90 degree and put the exhaust there and maybe point it at an angle instead of straight at the ground right?  would that work? is there a minimum clearance from exhaust to ground?  i imagine that the heat coming out would be able to ignite things correct?  lol i could put a small pond back there under it :-D

So the OAK i have set up the way the kit tells you to do it with the deflector plate - that is up and away from the ground etc.  I thought about boxing it in with some 2x4's etc but it seemed unnecessary.  it has the screen and all that from the kit and hasnt been clogged or invaded by animals.


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## eyeaml337 (Dec 30, 2008)

also just found this about the 4" pipe dealio:

Through-the-wall 4" Pellet Vent Kit for high-altitude installations (over 4,000 ft.). Contains all the parts needed for most (high-altitude) pellet installations. Comes with 3" - 4" increaser, so it will work with our stoves (or others) with 3" diameter exhaust.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 30, 2008)

Actually the 4" is a requirement at high altitudes and may be needed at any altitude depending upon the amount of air flow resistance produced by the exhaust system.

Does your stove have a manual draft control, if so how did you set it?

And you have a PM.


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## eyeaml337 (Dec 30, 2008)

4" might make sense or if removing one of the 90s would work as well ... seems like that is a major pain point for my piping right?  

no manual draft control that i know of.  the only options are the ones on the board which basically is pellete feed rate (1) burn air (9) and air on temp (1) the AoT just makes the room blower kick on at a low temp and factory setting is 1.  actually 1-9-1 is factory setting now according to Englander.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 30, 2008)

What is directly under where the vent would hit if you removed the outside 90 degree elbow?

If that is concrete or dirt or rocks then you should be fine.  If it is grass etc... my stove install book says 24" from the top of any combustible items.


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## PunKid8888 (Dec 30, 2008)

Could you remove the final bend before the vertical stack on the out side and run the stove like that for testing purposes.  See if it helps out the stove?


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## eyeaml337 (Dec 30, 2008)

SmokeyTheBear said:
			
		

> What is directly under where the vent would hit if you removed the outside 90 degree elbow?
> 
> If that is concrete or dirt or rocks then you should be fine.  If it is grass etc... my stove install book says 24" from the top of any combustible items.



I 2x check my book just in case but since it is dirt (weeds grow sometimes but i have roundup) and i happen to have a good 1/2 cu.yd left of crushed stone I will dump the crushed rock there and remove the 90.  Should know within a few hours if this will work.  Just have to do it after work I'll be home at about 5pm so that wont be until about 8pm EST tonight for a full test of it.

Other than the obvious no clogging is there anything else I should look for?  More heat? better flame? Indicators that it may be the problem solver?

Also, while I'm out there ... should I bother boxing in the OAK intake?  I have plenty of PT scrap to do it if its needed ...


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 30, 2008)

Flying ash embers but not flying pellets in the stove is a good start ;-).

Oh please don't mention cu yards of anything related to snow, rock, loam, or manure.  My back starts complaining when it hears such things.

I wouldn't touch that OAK.


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## eyeaml337 (Dec 30, 2008)

SmokeyTheBear said:
			
		

> Flying ash embers but not flying pellets in the stove is a good start ;-).
> 
> Oh please don't mention cu yards of anything related to snow, rock, loam, or manure.  My back starts complaining when it hears such things.
> 
> I wouldn't touch that OAK.



haha i have my girlfriend at home right now digging down an extra 12" then filling it with "stuff" and then when i get home i'm taking that 90 off.  I'm tempted to leave work early for this because I'm so excited by the possibility of fixing it rather than dealing with a new stove LOL!


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## PunKid8888 (Dec 30, 2008)

Now thats a girlfriend worth keeping.  

How is the soil by you?  mine is pretty much frozen solid can't imagine it being much fun


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## eyeaml337 (Dec 30, 2008)

she said its not horribly solid and i told her that she didnt have to do it if it was too hard.  maybe it will work out.  if not oh well ill just dump rock :-D


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## MCPO (Dec 30, 2008)

If I was in your situation I`d remove the verticle section and vent the stove straight out (temporarily) just to see if this causes the stove operation to improve dramatically. 
 It`s a shame to have to depend upon sales people at HD or other stores but unless you pay more for the professional services of a legitimate dealer you really have to do your homework and or be knowledgeable regarding pellet stove installations.
 Most claims given by most products are almost always sugar coated and usually the best possible conditions / situation and all too often don`t mention any of the countless variations for obvious reasons that aren`t obvious to the consumer.


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## eyeaml337 (Dec 30, 2008)

does anyone have a chart or formula handy for calculating things properly.  I am kind of curious.  I guess also what the proper requirements would be as well.


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## eyeaml337 (Dec 31, 2008)

disassembled the pipe - dumped some rock and have a bunch of good non flammable clearance from things.  will run tests tonight as it is supposed to snow and be mighty cold in the next few days.  negative temps this weekend etc.  so HOPEFULLY removing the 90 degree and more direct venting will help.  if not ... oh boy!


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## MCPO (Dec 31, 2008)

eyeaml337 said:
			
		

> disassembled the pipe - dumped some rock and have a bunch of good non flammable clearance from things.  will run tests tonight as it is supposed to snow and be mighty cold in the next few days.  negative temps this weekend etc.  so HOPEFULLY removing the 90 degree and more direct venting will help.  if not ... oh boy!



 Well , if nothing else it should give you an indication of whether the vent is the problem or not.


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## eyeaml337 (Dec 31, 2008)

Driving home in this wonderful weather we are having stuck LOL.  No luck still piles up.  I'll keep the new pipe confit though since it looks better on the outside of my house


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 31, 2008)

How long does it take to pile up? 

Did the amount of time change?


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## eyeaml337 (Dec 31, 2008)

roughly 1.25 hours.  Before it was maybe 10-15 minutes faster.  I could probably shut off clean and restart and get a different time though.  Know what I mean?  All in all I'd say it didn't make a noticeable difference or maybe no difference  not that I *want* to but if I say moved the entire stove outside and ran no pipe would that even be something I should try or consider trying?


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 31, 2008)

No to the last of the items, no need to take the stove out.

I still have plenty of questions since you are likely still close to the cut off point on that exhaust system.

Does that stove have two augers, and a shallow sloping fire pot that should allow the ash to be pushed out of the pot by the feed of new pellets from the back of the fire pot?

Is it the burning pellets that are in danger of falling out of the pot or will the ash be what falls out?

My unit is a drop feed and the ash can only leave the pot via being ejected by air when disturbed by incoming pellets or by the air flow through the firepot.

The other thing is since the stove has an OAK does the outside end of the OAK have any guard that covers it?


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## eyeaml337 (Dec 31, 2008)

SmokeyTheBear said:
			
		

> No to the last of the items, no need to take the stove out.
> 
> I still have plenty of questions since you are likely still close to the cut off point on that exhaust system.
> 
> ...



So my pipe isnt all that long now.  I have the T and one 90 and 6' vert pipe and then 3' horizontal and the cap on the end.  Is that still too much?

The stove has one auger.  from the bin to a chute that gravity drops into the burn pot.  the best way i can describe this is that the pellets just pile up and like ... half burn ... and then fill the entire pot overflowing both on and half on fire into the sides of the stove etc.

the OAK has a deflector plate for protection.

I had my girl shut it off and clean it earlier and now i am running a second test with the new pipe length as well as the gasket and plate in there.   So I am going to call Englander in the meantime and update them a bit and see what they say and if they have any other ideas etc.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 31, 2008)

6" vert = 3 plus 
2 90degree turns (T and one 90 degree elbow) =  10 plus
3' horiz = 3

Totaling  16 which is exactly one more than the recommended for 3" pipe.

Also did you see in the instructions that for a basement install you should be using 3" pipe for the OAK and not the flexible tubing?

About that deflector plate and such there is no screen over the OAK opening and that deflector plate leaves ton of room for air flow?

You have a top feed system (I downloaded and read the manual for your stove while I was waiting) , they really can be finicky about pellet quality.


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## eyeaml337 (Dec 31, 2008)

SmokeyTheBear said:
			
		

> 6" vert = 3 plus
> 2 90degree turns (T and one 90 degree elbow) =  10 plus
> 3' horiz = 3
> 
> ...



Si I just took a really nice picture lol.  http://flickr.com/photos/eyeaml337/3154754010/sizes/l/

That is after ~1-1.5hrs of burning.

Actually on the phone with Mike and another guy from Englander right now. Showed them the picture and i think (for lack of a better term) Bricks were sh@t.

Is there a guide somewhere on the calculations and all that?  Would being over by 1 cause this problem really?

As for the OAK - I rigged it with PVC pipe instead of flexible pipe - no leaks all sealed - no clogs.  lots of air.  My OAK has a screen and a metal plate that fastened to teh outside the kind of bends outward to prevent things from getting sucked onto it i would imagine.  kind of a 45 degree bend and then there is a screen on the hole.  I did also try running the stove without the OAK hookup because my basement is large and has plenty of air etc even tried with windows open to get more airflow and then added a fan into the equation as well.  lol


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 31, 2008)

Well I have no doubt seeing that picture that you have an air flow issue.  Something is constricted (plugged, blocked) or not exactly working correctly.

The combustion fan is what starts the air draw, however any leak between the combustion fan and the OAK is not going to help and any major resistance in the exhaust won't help, likewise in the OAK.

I'll bet they were wondering what's up.

The control board might not be setting the correct voltage for the combustion fan or the combustion fan is bad.  I have no way of telling as I don't have the voltage information and haven't access to your stove to see what my multimeter would say.

I'd try snaking through from the air intake to the fire pot, maybe a mouse, squirrel, or other critter crawled in and got stuck.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 31, 2008)

I wouldn't expect being over by one would cause that much of an issue.

I posted a reference link to one of many posts providing the numbers.   I didn't go locate the post that had a link to the tables etc.

You aren't burning industrial or standard grade pellets I hope as your stove can't handle them.

I didn't see any timing information for the feed system so it is hard to determine if the stove is overfeeding or not.

Did the other stove act exactly the same way?


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## eyeaml337 (Dec 31, 2008)

SmokeyTheBear said:
			
		

> Well I have no doubt seeing that picture that you have an air flow issue.  Something is constricted (plugged, blocked) or not exactly working correctly.
> 
> The combustion fan is what starts the air draw, however any leak between the combustion fan and the OAK is not going to help and any major resistance in the exhaust won't help, likewise in the OAK.
> 
> ...



LOL  Nice.  At least we know what the problem is.  Now its just a where/with what.  I will snake the OAK from the back of the stove to the pot like you were suggesting and see what happens.  I have a multimeter but no idea what to check with it.  

In other news the team of Brandon and Mike at Englander are offering me a new stove of my choice.  Suggesting the http://www.englanderstoves.com/55-shp22.html

they only make 3 stoves so ... here are all of them.  I obviously have the 240.  Sacrificing a large hopper for a working stove is something i will live with.  or should i take a 1:1 swap on the 240?  

http://www.englanderstoves.com/sh_pellet_stoves.html

The problem at the moment that Brandon is trying to work out is that if they exchange it they dont know how they will get it delivered to my house.  normally they use a freight company and the owner (me you etc) has to take their old one out to the company and then pick up the new one.  I don't have the equiptment or man power to do that at all so ... they are trying to make it happen.  There are a lot of Englander authorized dealers around here.  Maybe one of them will do it up for us i hope i hope i hope.


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## eyeaml337 (Dec 31, 2008)

SmokeyTheBear said:
			
		

> I wouldn't expect being over by one would cause that much of an issue.
> 
> I posted a reference link to one of many posts providing the numbers.   I didn't go locate the post that had a link to the tables etc.
> 
> ...



i kept looking for the tables and i read the post that mentions things but i wanted to try and find a table just because im a visual kind of learner with some things i guess hahaha.

so the other stove didnt have this problem at all.  the problem with the other stove was that it would be burning away but no heat would come out of it and no matter what Englander tried to do they couldnt get it to blow heat.  eventually deemed defective and swapped for this one and well ... yea.  

probably worth noting that the other one did have the extra pipe and the 90 hooked up.

As for pellets - New England Wood Pellets are (from what i see and hear) the most premium that money can buy.  I have also tried other brands to make sure its not a bad bag or me just imagining things etc.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 31, 2008)

If they provided the voltage information for the combustion fan you could verify that the control board was sending the proper voltage to the fan.  If the voltage was supposed to be x and you measure y then you know the control system has issues.  If the voltage is correct then it gets narrowed to the air handling system.  You could then verify all of the heat settings.  Likewise if they provided feed timing information you could verify the auger operation.

At least I have feed timing information in my manual.  Other than that it is relatively skimpy on real information.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 31, 2008)

I'd go for a 1:1 replacement maybe they'll get it right this time.


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## NEStoveOwner (Jan 1, 2009)

I have two questions.  Does this unit have two auger motors?

If it does can you confirm upper auger works properly.  My situation on my Englander 25PI is* slightly *similar.  

My flame will die and i will later have a full pot of unburned pellets.  Its a little different than yours because i can see hot coals.

My upper auger motor will quit when the stove gets hots ~2-3 hours depending on the heat setting i use.  The upper auger stops working and flame dies, stove keeps running to go through its cool down sequence before shut down.  If the auger motor has enough time to cool it will resume working and start feeding pellets to lower auger and than the burn pot is overflowing. Not trying to thread hijack , i ve have done the full dedug and know exactly my issue.  At first i chased feed rates and etc. I know my problem for sure is a motor    https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/32191/

I just thought i would throw out that my bad motor had me looking at other things and would have never guessed a motor issue.

Good luck with your Englander.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 1, 2009)

NEStoveOwner,

His stove has only one auger and it is a top feed system.

If Englander published a bit more information in their manual eyeaml337 could actually debug the stove as he has a multimeter.

Things like auger timing information and blower voltages for each setting would have gone a long way towards eliminating properly working parts.

I started fighting overflowing burn pot issues on about day two of my burning season.  It was a lot of little things dealing strictly with airflow through the burn pot and the fact that I'm burning what amounts to standard grade pellets.

As for thread hijacking, heck not an issue at all as you haven't, the more eyes the better.


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## eyeaml337 (Jan 3, 2009)

Brandon called as promised - i wasnt here so i got a VM - he spoke to his boss and they think they have something worked out for me - they seem to think that the http://www.englanderstoves.com/55-shp22.html would be better.  it is a completely different system.  Does anyone have any input on these?  Are they really better?  I know they cost slightly more in the store right now than the other models but i dont know if that is a quality thing or an aesthetics thing.  they are "prettier" stoves than my big box with no gold trim etc.

Also as i feared - they are "unsure" that the pickup/delivery can be done.  I don't know how or why I am expected to handle an exchange.  the involvement on my end is WAY more than I can handle.  I would have to disconnect my stove,  carry it up and out of the basement through the bulkhead, transport it to the location, pick up a new stove, and then carry it down into my basement through the bulkhead and then install it.  I have friends and all but none of us have large equiptment to transport a giant pellet stove in nor do we have insurance that will cover us if we get hurt doing this.  Also, major concern with what happens if we drop the damn thing or something worse.  This is really crappy.  I hate to seem non-appreciative because I am but on the other hand this isnt a good way of Englander doing business.  To make an end user responsible for all the stuff that they paid for to begin with when replacing what they seem to believe is a (second!) defective stove, is a bit ridiculous.

Ideas?


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## stoveguy2esw (Jan 3, 2009)

NEStoveOwner said:
			
		

> My upper auger motor will quit when the stove gets hots ~2-3 hours depending on the heat setting i use.  The upper auger stops working and flame dies, stove keeps running to go through its cool down sequence before shut down.  If the auger motor has enough time to cool it will resume working and start feeding pellets to lower auger and than the burn pot is overflowing. Not trying to thread hijack ,
> I just thought i would throw out that my bad motor had me looking at other things and would have never guessed a motor issue.
> 
> Good luck with your Englander.



depends on the heat setting, is it the higher ones or the lower ones, it is possible that it could an over temp limit, the top auger would stop if the high limit is reached by the stove, then start the top motor again if the unit cools below that threshold. if the motor itself stops due to overheating , it would still be receiving voltage when it was supposed to run , if the motor had stopped due to it overheating then the continued voltage would cause it to stay that hot or even get hotter as the lack of motion would not disperse energy which would have to be dispersed as heat. trust me dude, it aint the motor in that case


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## eyeaml337 (Jan 6, 2009)

So it looks like i have to try to convince them that they need to deliver the new stove and not have me pick it up.  everyone seems to think that this is what they should do but i am going to have to speak to some uber high up person to basically tell them all the reasons WHY they should deliver the stove to my house rather than making me and a few friends transport these stoves back and forth.

also the stove that they want to replace like i was saying is the 25-PDV - are there any owners out there that can tell me the pros and cons of this stove if any?  I just want to make sure i know what i am getting into if i take that one over a 240.  i guess the factory settings are MUCH different on it which sounds rather nice.  the defaults for the 240 are 1-9-1 where as the 25-PDV is like 5-6-5 or something like that so i would have much more control over the flame.  

any suggestions on this whole thing?  especially the getting them do deliver it part?


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## sydney1963 (Jan 6, 2009)

http://www.nevelsstoves.com/articles/Venting-your-pellet-stove.htm

Try this web site.

Pellet stoves have to push the exhaust air through the vent pipe with the stove's exhaust fan. With less restriction your pellet stove will breathe easier and burn more efficiently. First let's clarify the word restriction. Restrictions come from several different items. 

45 degree elbows 
90 degree elbows 
Horizontal distance 
Vertical distance 
Elevation where you live. 

A rule of thumb equation we are using has been adopted by most pellet manufactures. The equation is called the sum of Equivalent Vent Length (EVL). All of the above mentioned venting restrictions have been assigned EVL values as follows: 

Each 45 degree elbow = 3 EVL 
Each 90 degree elbow and Tees with cleanout = 5 EVL 
Each foot of horizontal run = 1 EVL 
Each foot of Vertical run = 0.5 EVL 
Elevations above 3000 ft with an EVL of 7 must adapt to 4 inch vent pipe. 

If your installation is below 3000ft, we would need to do some math. The rule of thumb equations is that if the sum of the EVL is 15 or greater, then the pellet vent pipe would be increased to 4 inch diameter pellet vent pipe.


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## eyeaml337 (Jan 6, 2009)

my EVL appears to be 15.5 now that i have taken better measurements and trimmed off the excess pipe last week.  I realize i am .5 over.  I dont think that being .5 over would really cause this kind of issue do you guys?


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 6, 2009)

I don't really know if being that close to the border line would cause this issue, like a lot of things it would depend upon how clean the air path is and whether there are other unknown restrictions.

That is the reason I asked about screening and such on your OAK.

I had to remove the original screen system.  I started by drilling additional holes in it.  That helped then I cut sections out of it that helped more so it got reamed out really well.   Just have to remember to make certain it gets taken care of in the spring.

When the service guy came to modify my burn pot he also came with a different cap arrangement for my OAK, which he installed and said if I found that it  needs to be removed to remove it.

It turns out that my evl is exactly 15 and I still have issues although things are far better than they started out as and I'm trying to push more ash than the average woodland critter.

I was expecting your trial after removing that 90 degree elbow etc... to have produced a change measured in hours.


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## eyeaml337 (Jan 6, 2009)

would it be pointless to get maybe a T and then hook up two OAK units to it? or maybe take some pvc and extend outward from the house - rig something up and drill a bunch of holes for airflow into it so that it would take in as much air as it needed?


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 6, 2009)

I don't know.

Like I said it would help to have more detailed information about the output voltages and such for the system.  We are assuming that the combustion blower actually is ramping up when the heat level gets changed.  For all we know it might be slowing down.  In any event it amounts to an airflow problem which as someone on here will tell you puts it on the same level as the cause of 80% of pellet stove issues soot plugged pipes.


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## eyeaml337 (Jan 6, 2009)

yea.  i mean it looks like this stove is the problem and not anything else.  at least that is what i think and now Englander thinks.  I went through a discussion with them about the OAK and the pipe calculations etc and they said everything sounded ideal.  now they want to replace it but well ... yea take a look at the posts about that ... im waiting to talk to the head honcho i guess lol


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## sydney1963 (Jan 6, 2009)

eyeaml337 said:
			
		

> my EVL appears to be 15.5 now that i have taken better measurements and trimmed off the excess pipe last week.  I realize i am .5 over.  I dont think that being .5 over would really cause this kind of issue do you guys?



Actually mine adds up to 17 and my stove runs fine.


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## sydney1963 (Jan 6, 2009)

eyeaml337 said:
			
		

> SmokeyTheBear said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That does not look right at all.  Really lazy looking flame and it looks like the inside of your stove is all sooted up.


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## eyeaml337 (Jan 6, 2009)

the inside isnt that bad.  i actually clean it on a more than regular basis.  kind of giving up lately and not even running the stove.  i have a shop vac with a stiff brush i clean it out with and 20 minutes later the thing is spotless.  then i burn, wait a little while and that pileup and flame happens.  more than 9 out of 10 times.  every so often it takes about ~3 hours or more to pile up instead of ~1 but it ALWAYS piles up ...


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## sydney1963 (Jan 6, 2009)

Sorry to hear about the probs you're having, hope you can get it fixed.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 6, 2009)

sydney,

I have a drop feed system and when the ash level (with or without clinkers) in the burn pot gets high my flame goes lazy and the stove soots up fast.  His stove is just getting to that point faster a lot faster.

Part of what has helped my stove in addition to removing the OAK screen was the modification that was provided for the burn pot.  However the stove still doesn't evacuate the ash as well as it could.   That is to say my pellets don't shuffle all that well   Times between pot dumping etc ... vary widely depending on pellet ash content.


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## eyeaml337 (Jan 6, 2009)

im going to try modifying my OAK tomorrow


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## eyeaml337 (Jan 13, 2009)

ok i think i have exhausted ALL options on this.

here is the new situation:

after speaking with Englander the other week and they said they would give me that other model I am just basically in a fight with them about how i shouldnt be the one to pick up and deliver my own damn stove.

they agree but they arent willing to budge on this whole "will not ship to house" thing.  

Basically I turned around and said: #1 this is the SECOND DEFECTIVE stove that i have gotten.  #2 i do not have the manpower, knowledge, equipment, or INSURANCE to be moving a bulky heavy awkwardly shaped stove in and out of my home! #3 if Englander as a company has to PAY someone else to pickup and deliver and maybe even install the stove then they should at this point to make things right! #4 I shouldnt have to run around and figure out who will do this but i will because they refuse to #5 im PISSED

So, now I am running into this problem:  No one wants to touch their mess.  No one that is a stove shop type of place sells or services Englander "because of their horrible reputation" and basically tells me that they wont do it and i am SOL.

Can anyone help me out here?  I have no idea where to even begin.  I have called 3 or 4 places all with the same answer.

On top of this it took TWO EFFING WEEKS for an answer that wasnt really an answer from englander.  I was told they would call me back - no one did.  I called last Friday and was told that the manager or whoever would call me back in 30 mins - no call.  Called Monday 1/12 and was told he was on the other line.  could hear the typing in what i assume is some kind of IM program (maybe they are smart and have jabber going!) and was told that i couldnt hold on and that he wanted me forwarded to his voicemail and would definitely call me back by 5pm when they close ... well 445 rolled around and no call so i called them.  was told he was busy blah blah blah bunch of BS and then was told again he would call me back.  so keep in mind this is TWO weeks now that have gone by.  finally at ~545pm i get the phonecall.  which is a review of #1-5 and that i have to do the footwork.  

needless to say i am pissed and really unhappy about this whole ordeal ... 2 seasons of not having a pellet stove, wasting time money and energy, and still no results.


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## Dr_Drum (Jan 13, 2009)

You are probably just out of luck, their warrantee is probably limited to product replacement, not installation and shipping. Maybe ask for a refund so you can buy a different brand? Highly unlikely that would happen. I personally would rent a truck, get some friends together and just get it done, right or wrong, put it behind you.

Good Luck man.
Mike -


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## eyeaml337 (Jan 14, 2009)

im ready to put a video on youtube of me pouring gasoline on the stove, setting it aflame, and then shooting it with various caliber weaponry ...


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## eyeaml337 (Jan 18, 2009)

So good news:  Lowe's has actually stepped up on this one.  A manager there who remembers me and likes me decided to go above and beyond.  He called Englander and i guess they are going to arrange shipment of a new stove the http://www.englanderstoves.com/55-shp22.html to Lowes and then that will be delivered to my house.  Hopefully within a week or so.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 18, 2009)

Too bad it took this long.


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## eyeaml337 (Feb 11, 2009)

well from the date of my last post until now is how long it took to get the stove in.  I had to buy a new "appliance adapter" and a new tee because the original adapter was in the stove so tightly that it wouldnt come off and i ended up destroying it.  no idea how it became that bad but whatever.  they wouldnt sell one piece without the other ... so both new.  all of the pie is the same.

its been 2 days.  it was a pain to get started.  i dont know if anyone else has experienced that?  seems like the ignitor gets hot but the auger just ends up burying it?  other than that and more importantly i suppose ... no clogs, no lazy flame, nothing wrong as far as i can see.  pumps out WAY more heat and no cakes no choke out.  none of the horrible stuff i was experiencing before.

so unless i am crazy or something goes awfully wrong it seems like i really wasnt crazy :-D  right?


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## MCPO (Feb 11, 2009)

eyeaml337 said:
			
		

> ong as far as i can see.  pumps out WAY more heat and no cakes no choke out.  none of the horrible stuff i was experiencing before.
> 
> so unless i am crazy or something goes awfully wrong it seems like i really wasnt crazy :-D  right?



Hard to say, really. I mean you were so pissed all thru the whole ordeal and it makes me question how you would handle a real crisis.
 Just how many folks do you know who got 2 brand new bad stoves in a row and then receives a third new replacement?
 Seems you got treated pretty well indeed. Try doing that with a $25K automobile..
 Anyway , I sure hope you are happy now and finally get to enjoy the stove.


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## eyeaml337 (Feb 11, 2009)

Gio said:
			
		

> eyeaml337 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i was more patient than pissed.  there is a huge difference in freaking out and going nutty and being pissed about being given TWO DEFECTIVE stoves.  a sigh of relief when i was able to get the third one.  if it were a 25k vehicle i would have been able to return the first lemon right away, then the second lemon right away and if the third one went bad then i would probably pick another vehicle make and model.  which is what i would have done if it were a possibility - i would have just gotten a harman


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## woodsman23 (Feb 11, 2009)

eyeaml337 said:
			
		

> Gio said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm glad it has worked out for you. If it were me and that happened i would have loaded that stove in my pickup and took it right to their place and crammed it up someone's butt, but thats just me. I think you were more than patient.

good luck


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## Nitro-Fish (Feb 14, 2009)

eyeaml337 said:
			
		

> well from the date of my last post until now is how long it took to get the stove in.  I had to buy a new "appliance adapter" and a new tee because the original adapter was in the stove so tightly that it wouldnt come off and i ended up destroying it.  no idea how it became that bad but whatever.  they wouldnt sell one piece without the other ... so both new.  all of the pie is the same.
> 
> its been 2 days.  it was a pain to get started.  i dont know if anyone else has experienced that?  seems like the ignitor gets hot but the auger just ends up burying it?  other than that and more importantly i suppose ... no clogs, no lazy flame, nothing wrong as far as i can see.  pumps out WAY more heat and no cakes no choke out.  none of the horrible stuff i was experiencing before.
> 
> so unless i am crazy or something goes awfully wrong it seems like i really wasnt crazy :-D  right?



I just pile up a small handful of pellets (enough to cover the ignitor) right over the hole, hit the on button & the pellets take off with very little delay, by the time they're burning, the auger has caught up & the flame fills in nicely.


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## stoveguy2esw (Feb 14, 2009)

eyeaml337 said:
			
		

> ok i think i have exhausted ALL options on this.
> 
> here is the new situation:
> 
> ...



first off, most(not all) stove stores will not touch anything they did not sell, regardless of brand, in some cases even if its a brand they carry.

secondly,

if you read the stated warranty you should note , that the warranty states...
 Procedure:
Purchaser must give notice of claim of defect within the warranty period and *pay transportation
to and from a service center designated by the factory.* The dealer from which the unit was
purchased or the factory, at our option, will perform the warranty service.

ESW is paying the shipping from the location both ways, which according to the warranty they are not required to do. having shipped one replacement, as well as shipping on the first stove back, now shipping a second unit, and a second unit back. which is not a requirement of the warranty. heck , we likely have more money invested in this than you do.



			
				eyeaml337 said:
			
		

> Can anyone help me out here?  I have no idea where to even begin.  I have called 3 or 4 places all with the same answer.
> 
> On top of this it took TWO EFFING WEEKS for an answer that wasnt really an answer from englander.  I was told they would call me back - no one did.  I called last Friday and was told that the manager or whoever would call me back in 30 mins - no call.  Called Monday 1/12 and was told he was on the other line.  could hear the typing in what i assume is some kind of IM program (maybe they are smart and have jabber going!) and was told that i couldnt hold on and that he wanted me forwarded to his voicemail and would definitely call me back by 5pm when they close ... well 445 rolled around and no call so i called them.  was told he was busy blah blah blah bunch of BS and then was told again he would call me back.  so keep in mind this is TWO weeks now that have gone by.  finally at ~545pm i get the phonecall.  which is a review of #1-5 and that i have to do the footwork.
> 
> needless to say i am pissed and really unhappy about this whole ordeal ... 2 seasons of not having a pellet stove, wasting time money and energy, and still no results.




i'll take a look at this when i get in monday and see what is going on with it , i have not been involved in this  up to this point to my knowledge but i'll se whats happening.


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## Dr_Drum (Feb 14, 2009)

eyeaml337 said:
			
		

> So good news:  Lowe's has actually stepped up on this one.  A manager there who remembers me and likes me decided to go above and beyond.  He called Englander and i guess they are going to arrange shipment of a new stove the http://www.englanderstoves.com/55-shp22.html to Lowes and then that will be delivered to my house.  Hopefully within a week or so.



In my opinion nobody went above and beyond. You finally received the services you bought and paid for on the first stove (assuming you paid for shipping and install on the first stove). It's not your fault the first two stoves did not function as promised and implied. You have the right to expect the performance advertised. You were more than patient. Good luck with the new stove.
Mike -


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