# RE: Wood lot size



## firefighterjake (Apr 13, 2012)

I think it's been asked before, but I think it bears asking again.

I would like to buy a woodlot of my own to pull firewood off . . . and maybe build a house some day. Obviously there are a lot of factors in determining how large a lot a home owner would need to have a sustainable harvest (amount of wood used, hardwood vs. softwood, woods vs. fields/open area, tree density, etc.) but in general how large a lot would you folks suspect would be necessary . . . assuming most 5-6 cords a year, mix of hardwood/softwood, more woods vs. fields?


----------



## jimbom (Apr 13, 2012)

Ten acres would be about right.  Ten management units.  Cut each unit every ten years.  County extension would be able to tell you their experience in your area.


----------



## firefighterjake (Apr 13, 2012)

Jim . . . I was thinking between 10-60 acres would be good. I figured like you that at a minium I would want 10 acres . . . but thought I would throw out the question to other folks. Thanks for replying.


----------



## rdust (Apr 13, 2012)

I think 10 would be enough for a single family obviously if you can afford more that would also work.

My neighbor to the south has just shy of 30 and it's not even all wooded.(maybe half and half)  He's lived there since the late 60's, I don't think he'll ever have an issue.  He uses it to supply his household and I believe one or two of his kids also cut off it although I'm unsure how much the kids burn.  He's also offered to let me cut off it since I've lent him a hand in the past but I haven't called in that favor yet.


----------



## Jags (Apr 13, 2012)

I have seen it reported (don't remember where) that an established wood lot of 7 acres will support the burning needs of the average house, indefinitely.  YMMV.


----------



## fox9988 (Apr 13, 2012)

I've cut 2-3 cords a year for the last 12 years on 8 1/2 acres that is 1/2 wooded. Still haven't cut a tree down that didn't "need" to go (lots of ice storms in the last 12 years) . Haven't put a noticable dent in the supply yet. My red oaks average about 1 cord per tree, so I only need 2.5 trees/year at that rate.


----------



## 19FarmHand78 (Apr 13, 2012)

A buddy of mine did a paper in collage on this. His studies said that if you bought a 15 acre wood lot of established hardwoods, an average house hold would never use up the wood off it, if you only cut what you need, and use all useable wood.


----------



## smokinj (Apr 13, 2012)

We had 2 acers going up and was way more than we need, but the trees where very large and old growth.


----------



## muncybob (Apr 13, 2012)

Along with the size it's also important to consider the terrain. We have about 4 wooded acres but about half of it is very hard to access. Fortunately that's where our softwoods are located.


----------



## jimosufan (Apr 13, 2012)

I read somewhere that you could harvest 1 cord per acre each year. on an established wooded area.


----------



## bogydave (Apr 13, 2012)

If you buy a lot with large trees , your way ahead. 15 acres of wood, you'd get enough when you cleared for the house & yard & driveway for a few years. Then just manage the property taking the dead, sick, blow down, & cleaning up the woods. You'd always have big trees to for the critters & you enjoy. 15 acres would be plenty, but after the shop goes in, a big garden area (has to have full sun so no shade trees on the south side of the garden), nice big yard, burn pit/picnic area, fire breaks far enough from buildings,  a few trails & a wood storage area, you're down a few  acres of woods. 15 acres sounds right.
But  if I were dreaming of a perfect size piece of wooded property, I'd go with 20 acres at least, with a small creek running thru it


----------



## Backwoods Savage (Apr 13, 2012)

Right. The first factor is what kind of trees? The second is how big are the trees? You also need to factor in how much clearing you would want for the house and other buildings. Still, in most places, and it seems for sure in yours, that 10 acres would give you plenty and then you also would not have any bare areas. Just cut what needs to be cut first and rather than cutting off an acre this year and off a different acre next year, just cut what really needs to come out. On the 10 acres though, I would highly doubt you'd ever run out of wood.

Also take notice of many areas in the US that are farm areas. Many moons ago they cleared land for housing, barns and such plus clearing land to farm. But they always left a woodlot. Of course the reason was not only firewood but they used to have more need for wood for other things along with the need for lumber. In our area, many of these type of woodlots tend to be about 20 acres in size.


----------



## maplewood (Apr 13, 2012)

I was always told a 20 acre lot would keep you in firewood for life, at 5 cord per year.
But I've been told a lot of other things that I'm not too sure about....


----------



## TreePointer (Apr 13, 2012)

When I looked into this question, it seemed like two acres of forest would be needed for each cord.  This was for eastern hardwood forest and not cutting live trees--only dead standing, deadfall, and blow downs.  Some actually estimated under 2 acres per cord.  Not a scientific study, but I did read it on the Internet.


----------



## Jack Straw (Apr 13, 2012)

We have 22 acres, about 1/2 that is woods, and we have plenty of wood. In New York you need to be careful, if you build a nice house on 60 acres the taxes can be very high. You may need to consider building your house on 5 acres and getting a separate wood lot. My house is on 14 acres and I have a separate lot that is 8 acres. The 8 acre lot is only assest at  $7k.


----------



## osagebow (Apr 13, 2012)

I've read the 10 acre stat a few places, and felt secure with my mature 11 acre lot. BUT....
I didn't figure the steepness factor and "rockyness" of my land. I can reasonably access only about 6 acres, but can scrounge nearby national forest thankfully. Factor ease of reaching  the trees in your decision.


----------



## MarkinNC (Apr 14, 2012)

This won't give you your number, but it will give you some things to think about.

http://www.ianrpubs.unl.edu/epublic/live/g1554/build/g1554.pdf


----------



## surviverguy (Apr 14, 2012)

The topography also plays a role in wood production. More water and more fertile soil grows wood faster. If you buy clearcut land, you'll be waiting 15 years for logs. Already forested land puts you way ahead. Consider taxes. Sometimes it's cheaper to buy more land and get farming tax rates or conservation status than to buy a few less acres and get charged full residential tax rates.  Taxes can be much higher than the cost of c/s/delivered firewood.


----------



## RORY12553 (Apr 14, 2012)

surviverguy said:


> The topography also plays a role in wood production. More water and more fertile soil grows wood faster. If you buy clearcut land, you'll be waiting 15 years for logs. Already forested land puts you way ahead. Consider taxes. Sometimes it's cheaper to buy more land and get farming tax rates or conservation status than to buy a few less acres and get charged full residential tax rates. Taxes can be much higher than the cost of c/s/delivered firewood.


 
Not to sounds like a complete idiot on this....how long does it take the average tree to grow to a harvest size and at what size would you harvest?


----------



## fox9988 (Apr 14, 2012)

RORY12553 said:


> Not to sounds like a complete idiot on this....how long does it take the average tree to grow to a harvest size and at what size would you harvest?


Growth varies greatly among species. Conditions like soil, moisture, temp, and sun exposure also make a difference. I'm guessing harvest times could vary from 10-40+ years.


----------



## TreePointer (Apr 14, 2012)

Around here, I've seen select cut harvests (not clear cut) in a mature forest about every ten years.  Timber goes to mill.  We get treetops for firewood.


----------



## Thistle (Apr 14, 2012)

jimosufan said:


> I read somewhere that you could harvest 1 cord per acre each year. on an established wooded area.


 
That's what my DNR has said for years.Pretty much standard rule  - 1 cord per acre yearly without damaging your woods. I normally burn 3-4 cords in a season (about 1/2 that last winter) & pretty much all I cut is dead standing,deadfall & ones that are dying/have storm damage.


----------



## surviverguy (Apr 14, 2012)

As trees grow larger (in a woodlot) they need more room. Thinning of the stand will be required for the health of the trees or thinning will occur naturaly. I manage 55 acres of trees and routinely cut down the lower quality trees to give the best trees enough room to thrive. Foresters use terms like stem density (# of trees in a given area) and meausre the density of trees (basal area). The pines grow twice as fast (or more) as the oaks. Hardwoods can take 30+ years to reach 18" diameter at breast height (DBH), while a pine can get there in 15 years (in ideal circumstances). I use the thinings for firewood if its convenient and large enough to bother with (min. 8" DBH).


----------



## surviverguy (Apr 14, 2012)

As far as what size to harvest at- it depends.  Forest owners have different goals. In different regions different species carry higher values for lumber. For example in the Carolinas the hardwoods have a high value for furniture. In other states the hardwoods are worth half as much as pine. Lots of forest owners like/love  their trees and only harvest the dead stuff. I have a huge white oak 30"DBH that I'm considering cutting down for firewood. The larger it gets, the more of a pita it'll be to deal with. I love looking at that huge tree (live) but I might like looking at it more after its c/s/s.


----------



## golfandwoodnut (Apr 14, 2012)

jake, I would say 10 acres of easily accessible wood would be fine, but I say grab all the land you can while watching the taxes.  God isn't making any more and the price has continually gone up and they are finding gas everywhere and you could always harvest some trees for profit in the future.  And besides, it is great having land. I just bought 66 more acres myself in NY where you can still get the Oil and Gas rights at a cheap price, if they do not kill you on taxes.


----------



## jeepmedic (Apr 16, 2012)

I live on 20 acres, about 1/2 is wooded, and I cannot keep up on the stuff that falls on its own. Iv cut almost 20 cords since December, and haven't cut a standing tree yet. There is no end in sight


----------



## firefighterjake (Apr 17, 2012)

Thanks for everyone's replies . . . looked at a couple of lots.

I liked the location of one . . . but it was a bit swampy and has been cut hard in the past . . . mostly a lot of small growth coming up . . .and the price was expensive.

The second was a bit larger than I was looking at . . . but had promise . . . until I got part way in and discovered that the present owners are actually harvesting the wood right now . . . guess they figure on getting as much money as they can in the short run.

I'll keep looking and bide my time . . . I figure the worse that can happen is I resort to buying tree length wood which right now is going for about $100 a cord.


----------



## TradEddie (Apr 17, 2012)

I've got only one acre, including a house and small lawn.  Between storm damage and removing trees that overhang the house or power lines, I've had enough to burn about 2 cords each year for the last 8 years, and have given plenty away to friends.  I can't imagine ever running out of wood at this rate.  Having the wood already so close to the house is great, but my skills don't extend to accurately dropping 90ft oaks, so I have to get a tree service out for the scary ones.  This eliminates wood burning as a cost-saving exercise, but it's cheaper than having the house flattened.  10 acres of quality trees must surely be capable of supplying all the wood you could possibly burn in one house.

TE


----------



## Cowboy Billy (Apr 17, 2012)

Hi Jake

   As Dennis said it depends on the types of trees, growing conditions and the length of growing season. It also depends on how tall the trees are. The trees on my property are 40 to 60 feet tall. And down the road at my cousins his are 70 to 90 feet tall. When we cut over there we get 1/3 more wood per tree for the same size and number of trees cut. At my house I have seven acres that was only slightly wooded. But if I was cutting off of it I would want at least 10 acres of woods. So I could spread out my cutting and not have to clear any one area.

  Last week my brother and I cleared about 3/8 of a acre to open up more of the gravel pit. And I did not get as much wood as I had expected to get.

  We cleared this








And only got this for wood. Which isn't as much as it looks like as its only about 4' high.






Billy


----------



## Dakotas Dad (Apr 17, 2012)

We have 5 acres, all hardwoods, sitting in about 12, to which we have full permision to clear, clean up, whatever. I am sure we could never run out just with clean up. This year, because myself and two neighbors who heat with wood decided to try to get a few more years ahead, we have been scrounging and doing some late ice storm cleanup on a couple local farms.


----------



## seeyal8r (Apr 18, 2012)

Depending on density but I would think 10 acres would be sufficient if it were solid standing timber and you selectively cut it thinning the larger trees every year. I think eventually you would work your way out of any trees though. Couldn't go wrong with keeping 10 acres as your minimum and purchasing what you can afford. Usually larger tracts of land get cheaper per acre. I've got 80 acres for sale here with about 30 acres of hardwood on it and the rest native pasture. Asking $240K.


----------



## StuckInTheMuck (Apr 19, 2012)

This seems to be close to you.. 

Remote hunting cabin with 107 acres of hardwood forest. Nice 2 bedroom cabin with wood stove and outhouse. You will enjoy the meandering brook and lots of wildlife. Excellent hunting. Access is with atv or 4 wheel drive only. This is a very nice piece of land. Wonderful spot to get away from it all!​ 
http://www.landandfarm.com/property/107_acres_in_Waldo_County_Maine-330030/​ 
If you buy a lot that has some really straight hardwoods, you might be able to nurture those while cutting the ones around the high quality trees for firewood.  An occasional timber sale could cover your property taxes.  This magazine has a good article on how to make your best trees grow.  Unfortunately, the article isn't available unless you purchase the magazine for $3 bucks online.  I got mine as a hard copy as a member of the New England Forestry Foundation.  The gist of the article is to reduce competition (for light, nutrients and water) by cutting lower quality competing trees and it can increase the growth rates (in diameter) by up to 80%.  

http://northernwoodlands.org/issues/issue

If you get at least 10 acres, you can put it in current use which knocks down your taxes.

http://www.maine.gov/revenue/propertytax/propertytaxbenefits/CurrentUseLandPrograms.htm

good luck


----------



## firefighterjake (Apr 20, 2012)

StuckInTheMuck said:


> This seems to be close to you..
> 
> Remote hunting cabin with 107 acres of hardwood forest. Nice 2 bedroom cabin with wood stove and outhouse. You will enjoy the meandering brook and lots of wildlife. Excellent hunting. Access is with atv or 4 wheel drive only. This is a very nice piece of land. Wonderful spot to get away from it all!​
> http://www.landandfarm.com/property/107_acres_in_Waldo_County_Maine-330030/​
> ...


 
Interesting . . . a little more land at a little higher price than I am looking at spending (although it's in the right area and at the right price per acre) . . . what is most interesting is that I didn't see this on the Maine real estate listings site . . . and for the life of me I don't remember seeing any signs for this property . . . which makes me wonder what else is out there and available. Thanks for posting.


----------



## Bigg_Redd (Apr 20, 2012)

firefighterjake said:


> I think it's been asked before, but I think it bears asking again.
> 
> I would like to buy a woodlot of my own to pull firewood off . . . and maybe build a house some day. Obviously there are a lot of factors in determining how large a lot a home owner would need to have a sustainable harvest (amount of wood used, hardwood vs. softwood, woods vs. fields/open area, tree density, etc.) but in general how large a lot would you folks suspect would be necessary . . . assuming most 5-6 cords a year, mix of hardwood/softwood, more woods vs. fields?


 
The rule of thumb is 1 cord per acre per year.  Some areas do a little better, some a little worse.  You burn 5-6 cord per year so you'll need a 5-6 acre woodlot.


----------



## lukem (Apr 20, 2012)

My dad owns 40 +- acres, and about 20 of it contain good hardwood (mostly ash, cherry, elm, and oak).   The rest is yard, mowed pasture, or pasture on it's way back to becoming wooded.  I'd say we only cut on 15 - 20% of the total land...some is just not accessible enough (read giant ravines) or doesn't have anything worth cutting.  We've been cutting on it for 30 years and can't keep up with the standing dead/down.  There's a lot of wood there that lays and rots.  

I should also mention that, up until about 10 years ago, he heated entirely with wood using an pre-epa stove and monster wood furnace.  Both were complete pigs...growing up we easily burned 8 - 10 cord per year, maybe more.  After I moved out and the "help" dried up, he retired the wood furnance and got a heat pump...although the stove still does the bulk of the heating.  We heated both of our houses for a couple years (probably 12 cord total) and still couldn't keep up with the dead/down.  I'm now cutting on my neighbor's wood lot since it is much closer to where I live, but there's no reason his land couldn't heat both of our houses (10-12 cord per year) into perpetuity.

10 acres should be more than enough...and I doubt you'd ever need to cut a live tree if you didn't want to.


----------



## lukem (Apr 20, 2012)

I'm not sure how wooded real estate works in your area, but you can pick up "logged" woods around here much cheaper than something that hasn't been gone through.  Some folks will buy a parcel, **** it for the timber, and turn right around and sell it.  The woods will be junk for a while, but a wood-burner's dream with all the tops.  You could buy it, "re-hab it" buy cutting tops and cleaning up after after a few years you'd have some decent wooded land, minus any valuable timber.  You'd get a lot of firewood and increase the value of the land.


----------



## Dakotas Dad (Apr 20, 2012)

Buddy is currently looking at 196 acres, 45 or so clear, rest in "woods" logged about a decade ago. If they get it, I and his sister get full rights to fire wood it..lol

but more importantly.. to hunt it. 

The property has a small house, several fair shape out buildings, and a 5 acre apple orchard (deer love apples!!) My guess is they will get it for 280-300k..

@FFJake: contact with local farmers.. around here, many won't list it, they try to find friends or friends of friends.. so it doesn't go to a develpoer.. That is how we stumbled into ours, and how above friends did too..


----------



## StuckInTheMuck (Apr 20, 2012)

firefighterjake said:


> Interesting . . . a little more land at a little higher price than I am looking at spending (although it's in the right area and at the right price per acre) . . . what is most interesting is that I didn't see this on the Maine real estate listings site . . . and for the life of me I don't remember seeing any signs for this property . . . which makes me wonder what else is out there and available. Thanks for posting.


 
Jake, you're welcome.   Landandfarm is cheap to list on, so that's why you'll find stuff there and not on the MLS.  Here's another site to look at..  http://www.fountainsland.com/properties.aspx  They represent the sellers and sell based on value of the land for timber production most of the time, so the prices are reasonable.  Parcels do tend to be larger though.  Download one of their property reports to see the detailed information on a parcel.  The idea to approach a farmer or large landowner is a good one.  You can offer to pay the fees for a survey and new plot plan for the subdivision if they give you a reasonable price.  Just find someone who needs some cash.  Another approach is to go to the tax collector in the town and find out if anyone is delinquent on their taxes.  You can contact the owner and offer a price that will pay off their taxes and put some coin in their pocket.  That's how I got my lot in MA.  It was cheap.  And two years after I bought I sold less than 20% of the timber and made back 40% of my purchase price.  We cut the lower quality stuff (mostly white pine) to let the hardwoods put on some diameter.


----------

