# Buying acreage--is it a bad idea?



## dave11 (Mar 16, 2013)

So prices for acreage in the tri-state area here (OH,PA, WV) have fallen off quite a bit. I've been looking at tracts of approx 75-100 acres, some all wooded, some partly pasture, some with homes already on them (old farmhouses) but most are undeveloped. Most are quite rural, as in 15 mins to the nearest small town, an hour to the nearest mid-sized town. Some are beautiful, with small rivers/large streams, rolling land, timber, etc.

I currently live in a rural suburb fairly close to Pittsburgh, on 1.5 acres, but I have this odd feeling I need a bigger place out in the middle of nowhere. I doubt I would ever want to sell my current place, which I've renovated, so any new land I bought would be a "project." I would want to build a livable dwelling on one of these plots, or renovate what was already there, so the land could be livable when needed.

I'm sure many people here have lived on large plots--but does this sound crazy? Of course it would be a dumb use of money in the short term, the undeveloped tracts have no water/electric/sewer/phone/gas etc. I suppose I could build it all "off the grid" though, from the start.

I wonder too, if you own 100 acres in the middle of nowhere, how do you keep tabs on it? How do you know people aren't cutting down your trees, for example?

Would like to hear any opinions on this.


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## heat seeker (Mar 16, 2013)

I love the idea, would like to do it myself. But I am concerned with leaving any developed property unattended. Their are way too many bad people around.

Your best bet, IMO, would be to make friends with those living in the area, and hope they'd keep an eye on things for you.

I'll follow this thread, since that's also a dream of mine. Not trying to be a wet blanket here. Other than that, I see no negatives to doing it if you can afford it. 

You might want to see what property values are doing there. This may or may not be the best time to buy if values are dropping.

Good luck, and dream on!


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## kingquad (Mar 16, 2013)

I'm in this area too, and I've seen no indication that prices are falling unless it's being sold without mineral rights.  I personally wouldn't buy if it didn't include mineral rights.  Also, make sure you know the last time it was logged, could be some potential money to be made.


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## Ehouse (Mar 16, 2013)

I love my 100 acre wood.  Three things;  Try to buy adjacent to State land, watershed land, park land etc..  You will be adding to an existing sanctuary,  as well as enjoying expanded usage. 

Buy close enough to your existing home so you can visit frequently. 

Don't immediately put up a structure.  Get a camper and get to know the land.  If you do put up a structure, try to get it subdivided out as a small lot, as you will be hit with residential property taxes on the whole if you do not.


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## JDC1 (Mar 16, 2013)

kingquad said:


> I'm in this area too, and I've seen no indication that prices are falling unless it's being sold without mineral rights.  I personally wouldn't buy if it didn't include mineral rights.  Also, make sure you know the last time it was logged, could be some potential money to be made.



Without mineral rights, you could have a nice shiny drilling rig smack dab in the middle of the property that pays someone else.  The most productive fracking well in ohio, the landowner sold his rights in the 70's. his land is unusable with the drilling activity and now he cannot afford the property taxes while someone else is a multi millionaire.


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## SolarAndWood (Mar 16, 2013)

We have about 60 acres an hour and a half from home.  If you do it, keep it simple.  Structures need security, maintenance and increase your property taxes.  We have bear claw marks in the exterior door to the kitchen but no person has ever bothered the place.  We and especially the kids love it there but quite frankly we could do a lot of other things with what it costs us to keep the place.


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## dave11 (Mar 16, 2013)

The issue of mineral rights does create a lot of uncertainty. Land outside the Marcellus Shale seems to generally transfer with them, or at least can be negotiated.

Not sure though if your land can legally be made unusable though if others decide to drill on them. Depends a lot on state law and precedent.

Some of these properties were once working farms or ranches. Seems like they could be partially returned to that, with a certain amount of work.


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## dave11 (Mar 16, 2013)

SolarAndWood said:


> We have about 60 acres an hour and a half from home. If you do it, keep it simple. Structures need security, maintenance and increase your property taxes. We have bear claw marks in the exterior door to the kitchen but no person has ever bothered the place. We and especially the kids love it there but quite frankly we could do a lot of other things with what it costs us to keep the place.


 
People talk a lot about timber sales--have you considered that? Was wondering if it is all its cracked up to be...


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## xman23 (Mar 16, 2013)

I know the timber value is a big out west, Oregon, and surly many other locations. In PA there are tax deferral programs to keep large tracks of land intact. I started to look into this, thinking a lot of land is where I want to retire to. A lot of pro's and con's. That said, my wife wants to retire to our weekend place.  We have an acre that backs up to 200 acres, a nice house, water, sewer, maintained roads, etc. It' in a great community, with a lot of friends and activities.  

I to would like to hear from the guys here that have large pieces of land, what they like, what they don't.


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## Backwoods Savage (Mar 16, 2013)

Dave, here in MI there are many, many folks who own land in the north but live in the south. Those who own undeveloped land usually have the least problem but those who have cabins or houses that are out in the sticks have constant breaking in problems. After all, it would be easy to break in because who would call the police? How long would it take the police to get there if they were called.

One place i remember well was the Gaylord, MI area. Lots and lots of wooded land with lots of small cabins that are used mainly on weekends in the summer months. I was amazed reading the papers to see all the break-in problems.

As for the investment opportunity, now could indeed be the best time to buy with the prices down. We know they will come back up but just don't know when. Also the mineral rights is a valid concern.

Good luck.


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## bubbasdad (Mar 16, 2013)

Backwoods Savage said:


> Dave, here in MI there are many, many folks who own land in the north but live in the south. Those who own undeveloped land usually have the least problem but those who have cabins or houses that are out in the sticks have constant breaking in problems. After all, it would be easy to break in because who would call the police? How long would it take the police to get there if they were called.
> 
> One place i remember well was the Gaylord, MI area. Lots and lots of wooded land with lots of small cabins that are used mainly on weekends in the summer months. I was amazed reading the papers to see all the break-in problems.
> 
> ...


 
The percentage of folks on state aid is higher in a lot of northern counties than it is in Detroit.   My family had a cottage up there, and the best way to prevent having all your stuff stolen is to hire a local to maintain your property.  They know all the shifty folks, and warn them off.  Probably helps that they are frequently related.


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## bubbasdad (Mar 16, 2013)

I know one thing for sure, if it is decent farmground, it isn't going to go cheap.


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## peakbagger (Mar 17, 2013)

The practicality of owning land for a wood supply is directly related to how far it is away. In the biomass industry moving wood chips is generally regarded as only effective at less than 50 miles one way as the cost to ship it exceeds the value as fuel. I expect with firewood it may be denser, but there is still the wear and tear on the truck, plus the chance that the area will be shut down due to wood transport due to some insect pest. 

I have looked at lots over the years and would love to own one but the reality for me is the taxes and other expenses would make my wood real expensive.


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## johnchap (Mar 17, 2013)

i bought ten acres some time ago in sout vermont  - raw land .... thick woods ... I had it selectively logged and earned one third of the paid price in the first 6 months --- whci paid for some excavation work --- built a small shed below tax code size  - check zoning , taxes !!
i leave a camper on it for 7 months,... the locals check it out and I never had a problem ....  bears ... deer ... moose ....
I will most likely gift it to nephew and nieces ..... NO land is selling there now ... NONE    check out why the prices are low and think ... the economy is tanked and tanking .... most cannot afford or want to risk doing this ,,, I would sell this year .... but no buyers

also check sale penalty - in vt if you are not a resident and sell the property one year after purchase you are TAXED heavy .... very heavy ...after 6 years it is a normal resident tax

enjoy life ...woods are peaceful !


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## SolarAndWood (Mar 17, 2013)

dave11 said:


> People talk a lot about timber sales--have you considered that? Was wondering if it is all its cracked up to be...


 
We have done it and it did offset some of the carrying costs of the property.  I wouldn't go into this thinking you are going to make money on timber unless you have some connections.


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## Wooderson (Mar 18, 2013)

My take is that property is a finite resource.  I do not own property, but I know that it brings great pride to my FIL to see my family work his land and know that the grandchildren will one day be working the place with their children and, God willing, grandchildren.

The Farm is about 15 minutes from our place in town and supplies 100% of our wood.  I CSS blackjack and post oak at the farm and stack for my FIL.  I haul about 1/2 cord to town as needed for our heating.  It is an additional handling, but more workable than multiple stacks at the house, and it allows single stacking with plenty of warm temps and wind.

If you have the flexibility, it is great for the family and the soul.  I second finding a caretaker...just to keep an eye on it.  Drive throughs tend to discourage vagrants IMO.


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## Jack Straw (Mar 18, 2013)

I have a 22 acres and I love it. I wish I had more.


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## Highbeam (Mar 18, 2013)

I have 15 acres about 50 miles away and I have enjoyed it but it is a money loser. Carrying costs, capital gains taxes, property taxes all eat away at any equity or chance of profit over time.

At this point, I want it sold but no buyers to be found.


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## Paver56 (Mar 18, 2013)

I live in Lancaster PA and have 20 acres.  I do not know if you have it out your way but I would see if they have a Clean and Green program.  It is meant to keep taxes lower on farmland.  Without it, we probably would have a hard time paying our property taxes.  Our house is assessed normal, but the land is discounted.  Worth looking into.


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## maple1 (Mar 18, 2013)

You guys have it hard on the tax front. Here, resource land (wood land, farm land) is taxed so low it's negligible.


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## johnchap (Mar 18, 2013)

taxed 1,000 beans per year for ten acres .... it is a buildable / perced and I had a site plan engineered but I think the town has a zonisms and taxisms .... I tried to install a true camp with econ toilet etc .... they demanded septic!   screw em


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## woodsman23 (Mar 23, 2013)

there is no  better investment on than earth _  have acres here in ny and have b uilt a home and now live there, I still don't know why it took me until; 30 to do it...   10+ acres  lovin it_


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## OldLumberKid (Mar 23, 2013)

woodsman23 said:


> there is no better investment on than earth _ have acres here in ny and have b uilt a home and now live there, I still don't know why it took me until; 30 to do it... 10+ acres lovin it_


 
How's living in the snow and the cold weather for so much of the year? Does it get old or do you learn to love it?

Not that we don't get our share here, but "Lake Effect" snow is a whole 'nother world, right?


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## charly (Mar 23, 2013)

We have a 96 acre farm we bought 4 years ago,, we came from 10 acres which at the time thought was all we would need,,,, after 7 years we wanted more, sold our home and bought the farm.... we never looked back... supplies 100% of our wood.. Our big spring fed pond gravity supplies water to our home,, grid goes down,, we still have water,,, we filter what we drink, years before us people just drank the water directly never being ill... We have a farm exemption that saves us on some taxes but that is the biggest killer here... Taxes just went up 4000 dollars over night... We love the peace and quiet having the land and freedom... Bee's , apple trees , chickens and maybe adding a green house down the road... property is hayed every year and we get some income from that as well...  Deer cam's are a good way to babysit your property as well...Also some good signs like Posted, shooting range on premises, stray bullet hazard..  Oh well,, they've been warned  !    Also going to start flying off my property as well so it makes it all worth having the land going right out your back door to fish, fly , hunt what ever you want...It's all what you make it... Myself I could live in the middle of 300 acres and still have fun... Some people need a neighborhood of people,,, it's all in what you want....It's about a full time job just taking care of the place...


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## woodsman23 (Mar 23, 2013)




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## woodsman23 (Mar 23, 2013)

winter gets old in april but its coming to an end soon.


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## woodsman23 (Mar 23, 2013)

OldLumberKid said:


> How's living in the snow and the cold weather for so much of the year? Does it get old or do you learn to love it?
> 
> Not that we don't get our share here, but "Lake Effect" snow is a whole 'nother world, right?


 
*I love it here but taxes are a joke. Winter does tend to get old and we won't even discuss lake effect *


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## charly (Mar 23, 2013)

I agree with NYS taxes... 96 acre farm here,,, taxes come out to be 25 dollars a day to live here. Sickening...


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## heat seeker (Mar 23, 2013)

Don't feel too bad - I pay almost that much for 7+ acres here in CT.


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## OldLumberKid (Mar 23, 2013)

charly said:


> I agree with NYS taxes... 96 acre farm here,,, taxes come out to be 25 dollars a day to live here. Sickening...


 
That's not very encouraging, I was looking to escape the crazy taxes here.

But don't feel too bad — I'm on a suburban 100' x 40' 3 bed 1-1/2 br, with barely any room for firewood (no chickens or farm animals allowed here, of course) and the taxes are about the same as what you're paying on the 96 acres w/ house.  They doubled since we bought in 1997.


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## charly (Mar 23, 2013)

OldLumberKid said:


> That's not very encouraging, I was looking to escape the crazy taxes here.
> 
> But don't feel too bad — I'm on a suburban 100' x 40' 3 bed 1-1/2 br, with barely any room for firewood (no chickens or farm animals allowed here, of course) and the taxes are about the same as what you're paying on the 96 acres w/ house. They doubled since we bought in 1997.


I guess you have to just pay the taxes or sell everything and buy a motor home ..  Then it will be back to outdoor fires only


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## flyingcow (Mar 23, 2013)

If you find a lot with woods/timber on it. When you get a piece of land you are very serious about, try to get a forester to do a report of appx value.

No electricity near it? it would have to be dirt cheap for me to buy it.

we live on 50 acres. Makes for good neighbor relations.


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## SlyFerret (Mar 23, 2013)

Interesting thread!

At some point I will buy some land too.  I want to build an off-the-grid cabin on it as a  get-away.  I want somewhere that I can truly unplug from my high tech life.  My thought is that it needs to be no more than ~2 hours from home, or I won't use it often enough and won't be able to keep an eye on it sufficiently.  Luckily, finding something within a 2 hour drive of northern central Ohio shouldn't be too hard.

-SF


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## OldLumberKid (Mar 23, 2013)

charly said:


> I guess you have to just pay the taxes or sell everything and buy a motor home .. Then it will be back to outdoor fires only


 
Lol -- I kinda pondered the motor home bit, a while back.  

Thought I'd get a lot of surfing in that way -- and visit new places -- I was google earthing Steamer Lane checking out the lay of the land for RVing, and noticed others had the same idea, 

But then where would I keep my firewood stack? I know it's not very big of a stack, but it'd fill the little motor home in the picture, and where would the stove go? ... wouldn't leave any room for the surfboards


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## osagebow (Mar 24, 2013)

Don't forget to consult a geologic map of the area if you decide to buy. The Marcellus and other mineral formations are a concern, of course, but groundwater is also important. I was lucky enough to find land on a sandstone ridge, a great aquifier  that filters any impurities. Nearby nat'l forest, few neighbors, and a large portion of the ridge above me  = 30 gal. a minute of good water. Most of the area around me is susceptible to well pollution due to heavily fractured /caverned limestone. Many still use their sinkholes as trash pits, with wells a few hundred feet away!


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