# small invertor gen and subpanel?



## briansol (May 17, 2013)

I've narrowed down choices on a generator to the 2400 inverter generator with the tri carb from these folks:
http://www.yamaha-propane-natural-gas-generators.com/ef2400is.htm

it only has 'normal' outlets, not the big heavy duty generator outlet.
Rated / Maximum AC Current 16.7 / 20 amps @ 120V








I'd like to hook up my pellet stove, fridge, and oil boiler (for hot water mostly), and maybe a few lights/outlets to it, in rotation.   maybe a laptop/etc.  not looking for full house use---  just enough to manage.

since all of these are in various parts of the house, running extension cords is just not a good idea.   With them costing $50 + each these days anyway, it's probably cheaper for me to just install a subpanel any way with one cord.

But, the electric box is in the front of my house (I have underground power in my area) and I don't really want to keep the generator in the driveway.   I'd like to have it in the backyard, which is fenced in and if its as quiet as they say it is, provided I don't 'show off my light' no one will know I have it on from any distance.  But that means running a long wire.  Either an outside cord around, or pass wires in the (finished) basement from the outside back wall to the front wall.

All of the subpanels i'm seeing for generators seem to want the big boy plugs and more amps 30-60.

Can I do this with a weaker set?

Or, am I going about using a portable invertor wrong like this....  its meant to power a few items locally, and not use a house connector.  I've never used a generator before on my house for any period of time so i'm completely new to this all.

thoughts?


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## Highbeam (May 17, 2013)

The subpanel setup is a bad idea. That is an inferior and overly expensive way to switch just a few circtuits to generator power. The superior, both cost and function, method is with an interlock kit on your panel. This is also code legal and allows you to power any and all circuits with a genset. The hardest part will be running the new "generator inlet" cicuit from the panel to a convenient place on the outside of your home for a male plug.

You only need a 240 genset if you want to power 240 devices but with such a small genset you won't be doing that. So you will be making an adapter that plugs into the house side generator inlet which is usually some sort of 30 amp twistlock and then also plugs into the genset of your choice. The adapter will be configured such that your 120 volt power will feed both legs of the panel.

If, in the future, you acquire a larger genset capable of 240 then it will likely have the proper plug to allw direct connection to the generator inlet.

Imagine, you'll be able to walk into any room and flip on the light switch.

The clean power from that yamaha will be very good for your flatscreen TV, laptops, and even pellet stove. Things should run smoothly and quietly with no hum.


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## velvetfoot (May 17, 2013)

That's what I do.


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## briansol (May 17, 2013)

I have no need/use for 240. The dryer and range are the only things I have that are 240 and the hell with laundry in an emergency situation, and I have a nice grill w/ side burners for cooking with propane (which is why I want the tri-carb anyway-- I plan to stock a few grill tanks as fuel storage) 


I'm very capable... younger... no medical/etc equipment requirements. I just want a little comforts should we run into Sandy or a Snowpocolypse again. Lost a lot of food both those weeks and cold showers suck!


So, interlock kit...

googling....

yes, That's what i'm after. a plug on the outside of the house to plug the set into, and that plug is on the panel.

but again, all these kits i'm seeing call for the larger cord.





How does my 'normal' ac outlet plug on this get hook into these things?


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## velvetfoot (May 17, 2013)

You wire up an adaptor.  A 120v on one end and a 240v interlock on other end.  The plug is wired as generally described above (they can be customer wired).  That's how I did it.


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## begreen (May 17, 2013)

It can work. You don't need a giant generator plug wired in. And the Yamaha genny (same as we have) will do the job well. Without seeing the panel and how it is wired, it's hard to advise exactly, you need to assess the suitability for your panel. Contact your electrician to see if you can install an interlock (main breaker lockout), wire up the remote outlet for the genny, install a 20 amp generator breaker at the top of the panel (which can only be engaged when the main breaker lockout is up) and migrate the genny loads to the leg of the panel that the 120v breaker is on.

Here are a couple examples of the main interlock. They are with 240v breakers, but it can also be done with 120V breakers. This just means that only one side of the panel will be powered.


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## begreen (May 17, 2013)

Note, I am sure your are capable and handy, but this is a situation where you want to be 110% sure that it is done correctly. You absolutely must not be able to backfeed into the grid (power lines) from your generator. Doing so can have some very dire consequences including the possibility of killing someone.

http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/stories/13-How-NOT-to-Connect-a-Portable-Generator.html


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## briansol (May 17, 2013)

My house is fairly new construction (1997) so it should be pretty up to date with hook ups. I do have central air in the house and the breaker box is pretty large. There are open slots. (note, I don't plan to run the c/a on gen).

I followed you until 'leg of the panel that has the 120'.

are you saying that in general, one side is all 120 and the other 240, and i'll only be able to chose the lessor 'half' based on where the breakers were put?

And yes, i'm aware of the linemen danger/.backfeeding/etc.   I plan to have an electrician do this for me... and i'll need to get a permit to do it as well.


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## begreen (May 17, 2013)

No, the main panel will have two "legs" or bus bars that the breakers alternatively attach to. Each leg carries 120v. A 2 pole breaker bridges both legs to provide 240v..

I suggest you have an electrician give you a quote. If he is a good guy you may be able to run the remote leg yourself to save a bit of money, but have a pro do the panel work and wire up the new breaker plus generator interlock. An error could be lethal.


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## briansol (May 17, 2013)

gotchya.  thanks!

any idea on a reasonable estimate for this?  500? 1000?


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## begreen (May 17, 2013)

Not knowing the house or path of the wiring for the remote outlet it would be just a guess. This should take about 3 hrs. so I'd guess less than $500.


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## briansol (May 17, 2013)

Assume easy.  The box is at outside-wall level and there's already gromments through the foundation there to the outside.


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## Highbeam (May 17, 2013)

BG sent you down one road with moving breakers but there is a better way. You use your 120 volt genset to feed both sides, phases, legs, (whatever you want to call them) of the panel. You do this by combining the two hot leads within your adapter that goes from a twistlok 30 amp to the 120 volt duplex plug on the genset. This makes it so that no 240 volt device will operate which is fine since you don't have a 240 volt genset.

My home is equipped with an interlock and a generator inlet on the exterior wall. I used a 30 amp inlet circuit since that is standard and will allow for a 7000 watt 240 volt genset should I ever decide I want to use something that big. Sizing that generator inlet circuit to 30 amps and using regular 10 gauge romex is the way to go.

Feeding a home equipped with an interlock using a 120 volt genny requires some creativity. The creativity is accomplished entirely within the adapter cord between your genset and the generator inlet.


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## nate379 (May 17, 2013)

If you just feed 120v into the panel wouldn't only one side of the panel be powered? When you feed with 240v you put 120v on each side of the panel.

I'm not an electrician and I slept on the couch last night so maybe I'm way off on this.

My gen set is 240v and I use my ~100ft 6 gauge welder's cord to plug it into the welding outlet.  I just made an adapter that goes from the end of the welder's cable to plug into the gen set.  I just shut the main off and shut off whatever breakers I don't need to have power to. Yes I know most power companies don't like this. Mine doesn't care, they said my setup is just fine. I have it in writing.


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## woodgeek (May 18, 2013)

I thought the standard was to power both hots tied together by the interlock? That way all 120V circuits are live and all 240V circuits are dead as doornails.

IIRC, the 240V plug supply has the 120 V single hot from the genny tied to both hots on the 240V outlet.  Wouldn't want to plug that into a live 240V outlet....or am I missing something?


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## BrotherBart (May 18, 2013)

nate379 said:


> My gen set is 240v and I use my ~100ft 6 gauge welder's cord to plug it into the welding outlet. I just made an adapter that goes from the end of the welder's cable to plug into the gen set. I just shut the main off and shut off whatever breakers I don't need to have power to. Yes I know most power companies don't like this. Mine doesn't care, they said my setup is just fine. I have it in writing.


 
Be interesting to know who put that in writing if MEA is your electricity provider. 

MEA's Tariff, Section 9.09, says:
_Standby generating facilities shall be installed in accordance with the Association's "Service Assembly Guide" and shall include installation of a double-throw switch on the consumer's side of the kilowatt-hour meter, with capacity in either position equal to the total connected electrical load through the switch. All such installations shall be subject to prior approval of the Association in order to ensure the safety of the Association's personnel._​


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## nate379 (May 18, 2013)

Yeah, double throw switch on consumer side of the meter means the panel main  One of their engineers came out and approved it.  Same deal they had to do for my solar panel install.


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## Highbeam (May 20, 2013)

nate379 said:


> If you just feed 120v into the panel wouldn't only one side of the panel be powered? When you feed with 240v you put 120v on each side of the panel.


 
That's how I thought the world worked but then I came up with this....



woodgeek said:


> I thought the standard was to power both hots tied together by the interlock? That way all 120V circuits are live and all 240V circuits are dead as doornails.


 
I don't think it is standard and you tie the hots together at your adapter, not the interlock. I may not have invented the theory but I was fighting a genset that only regulated the voltage on one leg of its 240 output and then I thought, why not feed both sides of the panel with the same 120? Easy to do, you just combine the normally out of phase hots from the panel and feed them with the single hot from the genset's 120 output. You need to be sure that your one neutral conductor is up to task because it is doing double duty of a normal 240 setup. Not a problem with these small gensets and larger interlock wiring.

It's the only way to feed all the 120 volt circuits in your panel with a 120 volt genny.


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## velvetfoot (May 20, 2013)

Plus you want to have the flexibility of plugging in a bigger, 240v. generator.


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## Highbeam (May 20, 2013)

velvetfoot said:


> Plus you want to have the flexibility of plugging in a bigger, 240v. generator.


 
With the adapter being the device that combines your 120 volt genset to feed both sides of the panel you have a tool. Use it wisely. If you remove that adapter and plug a standard 240 genset into it, you can run everything including 240 volt appliances.


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## velvetfoot (May 20, 2013)

I just wired a 240 volt plug to feed both legs - there was enough room in there.


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## Dave A. (May 20, 2013)

nate379 said:


> My gen set is 240v and I use my ~100ft 6 gauge welder's cord to plug it into the welding outlet. I just made an adapter that goes from the end of the welder's cable to plug into the gen set. I just shut the main off and shut off whatever breakers I don't need to have power to. Yes I know most power companies don't like this. Mine doesn't care, they said my setup is just fine. I have it in writing.


 
Light bulb lights over head. Didn't realize it could be this easy.

So I've got my 240v dryer 30a close to an outside window, near where I'll keep the generator/ gen set. (Champion 3500/3000 haven't used it yet and was not looking forward to all the extension cords/ plugging and unplugging ref/freezer, small a/c etc.) So if this works I avoid all that and don't need additional equipment installed or an electrician. Have done some wiring in the past, added circuits/ moved them around in the panel, so have some idea what I'm doing.

Aside from whether it's technically code and all -- just so I know if I do it right it's safe and will work.
My dryer is on a 60 amp kitchen/laundry sub panel to 100 amp main panel.

Anything wrong with any of the following:
1. So I get a 240v dryer cord/plug and wire that to the interlock plug
edit: correction s/b locking gen plug
for gen (my gen is only 120 so will wire black on gen to both red and black on dryer cord. This is what I'm most unsure of)

Power up gen
2. Turn off main house breaker. (and put tag warning anyone not to turn back on)
3. Unplug regular dryer plug (30A)
4. Turn off breakers I don't want power to or might overload gen
5. Turn off anything I don't want on.
6. Plug in dryer/gen cord to dryer wall socket and gen

Power will go from dryer plug into sub panel both legs (actually the only thing 240v right now in the house is the dryer but I realize you can't have 240 by splitting 120 between the two legs) and from there into main panel (both legs). And all the breakers will work normally.

Edit: am using the wrong term, meant the locking generator plug, not the interlock.


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## woodgeek (May 20, 2013)

At the risk of confusing everything further, I thought the interlock panels forced one 240V breaker to be off whenever the main breaker was on (and vice versa).  You **can** backfeed a dryer plug with 120 to power your 120V appliances, but if you used an interlock panel (for safety) you couldn't then run your dryer off grid power.


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## Dave A. (May 20, 2013)

Highbeam said:


> This makes it so that no 240 volt device will operate which is fine since you don't have a 240 volt genset.


 
Will it not operate at all or would it just operate at 120v?

Another question if anyone knows. Realize that can't use the dryer if I back feed through that outlet, but was just wondering otherwise if only one leg of the 240v for the dryer is hooked up would it run but just at lower output -- take twice as long to dry?


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## Ashful (May 20, 2013)

Dave A. said:


> Will it not operate at all or would it just operate at 120v?


 
Won't run at all. You would have the same potential (i.e. voltage) on both legs of the 240V circuit, so zero voltage between them.



Dave A. said:


> Another question if anyone knows. Realize that can't use the dryer if I back feed through that outlet, but was just wondering otherwise if only one leg of the 240v for the dryer is hooked up would it run but just at lower output -- take twice as long to dry?


 
No, for reason above. Getting 120V to that dryer would mean tying one of the hot legs to ground or common, something you don't want to mess with.

What Highbeam has proposed, with regard to running both legs of your panel off the same 120V potential, is an interesting idea. The required neutral would have to handle the combined load, whereas the neutral in a 240V circuit only handles the small difference in load between the two hot legs. In any case, some newer dryers do have a 4-wire hookup, 2 hots + neutral + ground. More common is the 3-wire hookup, meaning there's more often no opportunity to back-feed your panel at 120V from a dryer plug.

That said, the dryer plug technique is used by many for a 240V back feed, safe or not. The trouble with this setup is more with regard to making a mistake and throwing the wrong breakers in the wrong order, or having someone get at the panel when you're not around, than anything else.


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## woodgeek (May 20, 2013)

Dave, your procedure exactly as described will 'work', without requiring any new permanent wiring.  Indeed, it is exactly what many folks with generators do.  BUT, it does not have a safety interlock, and puts linemen at risk.  If someone flipped the breaker back while you were running (ignoring your tag) your genset would backfeed the grid.

Instead, get an interlock panel, and it will mechanically force one (new) 240V 30A breaker to be 'off' whenever the main breaker is on...that 30A line can go to a (new) locking outlet, located wherever you like, that will be dead whenever you are on grid power.  Use that with the same cabel you made up for your idea, and you are 'safe'.  I was saying (confusingly) that if you moved your dryer to that new breaker, it could never connect to grid power...it would be locked out.


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## Highbeam (May 20, 2013)

The legal way to do it is with a cheap interlock kit and a generator inlet circuit. Functionally, this is exactly the same as backfeeding through a four wire dryer plug using a double male "suicide" cord. I recommend a backfeed that utilizes both the ground and neutral along with the hots.

Especially with your goofy subpanel setup I would be most inclined to only send genny power to your main panel using the appropriate interlock and genny circuit. Sometimes subpanels have isolated grounds.


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## Dave A. (May 20, 2013)

Highbeam said:


> The legal way to do it is with a cheap interlock kit and a generator inlet circuit. Functionally, this is exactly the same as backfeeding through a four wire dryer plug using a double male "suicide" cord. I recommend a backfeed that utilizes both the ground and neutral along with the hots.


 
Just checked my dryer plug and it's a 3 prong (no separate ground).

What would be the risk in combining the ground and neutral at the dryer outlet -- pretty sure they are combined in the sub panel.

As I said, haven't used the gen yet and sort of hope I don't have to. And not planning on being in this house more than a couple years so don't want to have to invest in something unless it's really necessary. Am confident the main could be kept off while the gen ran. Another point is that my panel is filled, even the 1/2 breaker slots are maxed out -- I probably could move some things around if I had to but would rather not.

The gen says floating neutral -- does that mean you don't ground it? (probably in the directions but they aren't handy). That would kind of imply neutral and ground are joined at the gen. That can't be right, am guessing that they are assuming you're going to be backfeeding or using a transfer switch and relying on the house ground and if you use extension cords you need to run a ground to something?



Highbeam said:


> Especially with your goofy subpanel setup I would be most inclined to only send genny power to your main panel using the appropriate interlock and genny circuit. Sometimes subpanels have isolated grounds.


 
What's the risk of using my 3 wire dryer plug from the sub? I know the neutral goes back to the main though there may be an additional ground to the water pipe near the sub.

And what's the problem with a separate ground on the sub?

J, WG, HB, thanks for the replies.


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## Dave A. (May 20, 2013)

Joful said:


> No, for reason above. Getting 120V to that dryer would mean tying one of the hot legs to ground or common, something you don't want to mess with.


 
Maybe I'm not following but I was thinking in terms of only connecting one of the hots. I.e Black to Black, White (neutral) to white, Red not connected. Certainly would never connect a neutral to a hot. One problem I foresee would be that it's possible a certain one of the hots is necessary for the motor and controls and I'd have to connect to the correct one. I wouldn't think you could cause damage to the dryer with only one hot connected. The question is whether it would even work -- I mean I saw something about someone wanting to connect an elec WH to 120v and the response was it would work but take longer to heat.


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## Highbeam (May 21, 2013)

On a three wire circuit, such as to your dryer, the ground is often undersized. It is not a neutral, but a chassis ground and only needs to carry enough current to trip the breaker. That's the first problem.

It is poor form to use a ground for a neutral. In a 120 circuit, both the hot and neutral are current carrying conductors. To use the dryer plug ground for a neutral means you will be energizing the ground system which energizes the metal exterior of your toaster. Do you really want to do that?

The ground and the neutral are not combined at the sub, only the main.


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## Highbeam (May 21, 2013)

Find a four wire plug somewhere.


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## Ashful (May 21, 2013)

Dave A. said:


> Maybe I'm not following but I was thinking in terms of only connecting one of the hots. I.e Black to Black, White (neutral) to white, Red not connected. Certainly would never connect a neutral to a hot. One problem I foresee would be that it's possible a certain one of the hots is necessary for the motor and controls and I'd have to connect to the correct one. I wouldn't think you could cause damage to the dryer with only one hot connected. The question is whether it would even work -- I mean I saw something about someone wanting to connect an elec WH to 120v and the response was it would work but take longer to heat.


 
Maybe we got off track here, as this conversation has taken a few turns, so I'll just summarize what's normal, here:

240V dryer outlet is typically three-pronged, and is wired with black, white and green. Back at the breaker panel, the other end of the black and white conductors are connected to the two poles of a double-pole breaker, such that both black and white are "hot". They're the opposite ends of a single 240V "phase". Green is always ground.

In some unique situations, you will come across a 4-prong 240V receptacle. These are more often used for kitchen ranges, but I suppose there may be some 4-pronged dryers out there, as well. In this case, you will have a cable with black, red, white, and green, and it is normal then to use black and red for hot, white for neutral, and green for ground, when connecting this wire at the breaker panel.

As just about everyone knows, in a 120V receptacle, there are typically 3 wires, black (hot), white (neutral), and green (ground).

I've come across very few houses that don't have at least one wiring mistake or non-conformity, so it's always best to check voltages, rather than relying on colors.

Now, the trouble with back-feeding 120V thru a standard 3-prong dryer outlet is that the white wire in that dryer outlet is not connected to the common rail in your breaker panel. It's connected to one of the "hot" rails.

Also, to answer the prior question about using ground for common, if everything is properly wired, this is technically possible. However, it is unsafe and illegal. Ground connections are not always continuous or direct. Code dictates that ground and neutral only be bonded at ONE place in the house, and that is where service enters the house, again for safety reasons.


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## ironpony (May 21, 2013)

Joful said:


> Maybe we got off track here, as this conversation has taken a few turns, so I'll just summarize what's normal, here:
> 
> 240V dryer outlet is typically three-pronged, and is wired with black, white and green. Back at the breaker panel, the other end of the black and white conductors are connected to the two poles of a double-pole breaker, such that both black and white are "hot". They're the opposite ends of a single 240V "phase". Green is always ground.
> 
> ...


 





like the house I worked on where whoever wired it believed black should be ground and white hot and green neutral, talk about a mess


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## Dave A. (May 21, 2013)

woodgeek said:


> At the risk of confusing everything further, I thought the interlock panels forced one 240V breaker to be off whenever the main breaker was on (and vice versa). You **can** backfeed a dryer plug with 120 to power your 120V appliances, but if you used an interlock panel (for safety) you couldn't then run your dryer off grid power.


 
Now I see what you were saying here. It just didn't fit my situation (and I didn't understand how an interlock worked at that point). But my dryer breaker is in a sub panel box, not in the main panel so would not be effected by the interlock. For the interlock to work as intended you can't backfeed into a normally working breaker. (As you know), it really needs a dedicated to gen breaker which must be turned off before the main can be turned on and vice versa.

Starting to think about installing an interlock (at some point). Have seen kits for $150 but that includes a breaker which I wouldn't really need. At one point I had a 240v AC breaker in the first position in the main. But when my 18000 btu wall unit died, I replaced it with a smaller 1 ton (12000 btu) 120v unit. The 1.5 ton unit was much larger than needed. Anyway the other side of that 240v, I was going to use for something else. I have to think about it.

First thing though is buying or making up the extension cord for the gen. My gen is 120v so I need plugs for that (3 wire 30a) but am thinking about using a four wire cord to support a (future) 240v gen. And then buying the parts for the dryer/gen dual male "suicide" cord and making that up.

Trying to find some link for Highbeam's idea of joining the two hots of a 240 to the one hot from the 120 gen but can't find anything. Would like to see some more support, details for that.

Backfeeding without an interlock installed, I can see you really need some way to mechanically lock the main breaker off, or remove it (in a safe way).


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## briansol (May 21, 2013)

After all this talk i'm debating my intended purchase again and wondering if getting a 240 is a better idea.  :/


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## Highbeam (May 21, 2013)

Getting a 240 genset sucks. You won't have the same options for a quiet, inverter set to produce high quality power efficiently and quietly. Instead you will be stuck with full RPM contractor screamers that suck vast quanitities of fuel. 

The only inverter 240 genset I have seen is the biggest honda and it was like 5000$.


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## Ashful (May 21, 2013)

briansol said:


> After all this talk i'm debating my intended purchase again and wondering if getting a 240 is a better idea. :/


 
Highbeam makes a good argument, but I would not even consider buying a 120V generator. For those that already have them for running portable power tools, that's one thing... but there are too many 240V appliances I want to run in my house.

Running a resistive heater like an electric water heater on half voltage is one thing, but you generally don't want to do that with appliances containing motors or electronics. No 240V means no water, for my house.

Of course, this is why so many favor the two-generator setup.  The 240V rig for the well, and the 120V inverter for everything else.


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## Dave A. (May 21, 2013)

Have looked at a few youtube videos about these suicide plugs. And there's very little warning about where one of the real problems with them is. Only saw it mentioned once as to what I think is the glaring problem with them which goes against all normal usage of electric plugs and cords.

And that is that with these cords with 2 male plugs you can easily end up with a live male plug if you're not careful. In everyday normal usage with electricity you plug the non-energized male into an energized female socket/receptacle.And when you unplug something the exposed male end is never hot. You don't expect the metal contacts to be live and don't need to take care not to touch them.

With a suicide plug otoh, if you don't have the house end plugged in before turning on the gen set or remove the house end while gen set is on, you have a live male plug, something most people would normally never expect. The bare metal contacts are live/hot. You can't touch them or allow them to get shorted together, touch metal or ground. So it's important they be plugged in and unplugged in the correct sequence. And anyone using these devices needs to be necessarily vigilant and warn/prevent others from unplugging them.

Another risk comes in having them left in place after line power is restored. They must be removed before the main breaker is turned on.

They clearly are dangerous and it is understandable why their use should not be encouraged.


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## Ashful (May 21, 2013)

Umm... hence the name, "suicide plug".


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## briansol (May 21, 2013)

I have city water/sewer and live above the road (gravity takes the stuff away from the house should the pump fail), no well.
I rarely have less than a few cases of Poland spring in the house as well.
my property contains a 'babbling brook' and I have filtering capabilities if absolutely necessary to get water. I also use rain buckets for the garden.
I have a boiler, thus no electric hot water heater.
I don't care about cooking on the electric range.... i'll use my grill
I don't care about using the clothes dryer in an emergency. I have a ton of clothes to get by for a few weeks with out doing laundry.
I don't care about a/c... can live without.

I don't know what the boiler runs on. Is that a 240 ringer? I assume its not much as its the fuel that burns it.

What else is 240 that I would NEED in an emergency? I can't think of anything.


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## maple1 (May 21, 2013)

Everyones NEEDS are different. Sounds like you've got yours covered. I've got mine covered without needing any electricity until about the time the freezer gets to thawing. That's my NEED point. Aside from that, if we run out of water from all the places we've got it & I don't feel like carrying a couple of buckets from the well, I can hook my well pump into my generator - it's only a 120v jet pump. My boiler keeps us lots warm with no electricity at all by convection flow. Extra tank for the BBQ. I'm set.

The wife & kids though tend to get a bit needier after only about an hour...


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## Dave A. (May 21, 2013)

Joful said:


> As just about everyone knows, in a 120V receptacle, there are typically 3 wires, black (hot), white (neutral), and green (ground).


 
My 120v receptacles are almost all 2 wire + ground (black, white, bare (ground)). Have never seen romex with a green wire. BX, less common in my locale, has a green insulated ground wire.



Highbeam said:


> On a three wire circuit, such as to your dryer, the ground is often undersized. It is not a neutral, but a chassis ground and only needs to carry enough current to trip the breaker.


 
Now I see where you guys are coming from on these 2 wire plus ground dryer hook-ups. Never thought that was really acceptable or standard.



Mine is certainly not done that way. I have three insulated #10 wires black, red, white. Ground strap connected to neutral on the dryer, and white wire is neutral back to the sub panel.

Had a 240 a/c unit connected that way when I moved in and it shorted out badly. Whole house wiring got messed up knocking out one side of the panel. Not sure if the meter caused but it also was ruined and had to have the meter box replaced and a new meter put in. But the elec co denied any responsibility even though the electrician claimed it was the fault of the meter. The only damage to the house wiring was on that 14 2 wire plus ground romex line to the a/c. That had the thinner gauge bare ground wire.

Am pretty sure that current romex is not like that. The bare ground has to be the same gauge as the insulated wires and been that way for awhile.


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## Dave A. (May 21, 2013)

Highbeam said:


> Especially with your goofy subpanel setup


 
Nothing really goofy or bogus about it. Builder built in a development.  Was quite common back in the mid 1950's when this house was built in this area especially ones without NG service having lots of elec appliances in the kitchen requiring many circuits, d/w, range g/d washer/dryer, etc.  Main residential panels tended to be limited to about 12 breakers then, so a sub panel with the same # of breakers helped increase the capacity and made the house easier to wire, I guess.


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## Dave A. (May 21, 2013)

Joful said:


> I've come across very few houses that don't have at least one wiring mistake or non-conformity, so it's always best to check voltages, rather tha


 
Sometimes that's necessary. But I prefer to check continuity with the power off when possible.
Edit: And testing outlets with plug in wiring testers is a good idea
also.



Joful said:


> Now, the trouble with back-feeding 120V thru a standard 3-prong dryer outlet is that the white wire in that dryer outlet is not connected to the common rail in your breaker panel. It's connected to one of the "hot" rails.


 
Okay mine is not like that. But even if the white wire is used for a hot it's done so continuously. When you're backfeeding into a dryer plug (assuming you do that) you're not going to even see that wiring which is inside the receptacle. And if you check voltage and continuity, then you'd be connecting to the correct wires unless things were really screwed up before hand and likely there would have been evidence of that.

Where is anything being done much different than with line power by hooking up a gen if you don't do something really stupid like reversing hot and neutral when hooking up your gen extension cord/s assuming you make them up yourself. I can't see it.


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## Ashful (May 21, 2013)

Dave A. said:


> My 120v receptacles are almost all 2 wire + ground (black, white, bare (ground)). Have never seen romex with a green wire. BX, less common in my locale, has a green insulated ground wire.


 
Ground is referred to as green, because in a flexible cord set, it is always the green wire. Bare copper also turns green. The ground screw on your receptacles and junction boxes are colored green. You get the point. Yes, it's normal to find uninsulated copper used for ground in Romex/



Dave A. said:


> Am pretty sure that current romex is not like that. The bare ground has to be the same gauge as the insulated wires and been that way for awhile.


 
This is correct when dealing with smaller gauge wiring. With current-carrying conductors larger than gauge 6, all ground wires are typically kept at gauge 6.



Dave A. said:


> Was quite common back in the mid 1950's...Main residential panels tended to be limited to about 12 breakers then, so a sub panel with the same # of breakers helped increase the capacity and made the house easier to wire, I guess.


 
The house in which I spent most of my childhood was built in 1953, and had three Edison fuse panels, 24 channels each. They were all original construction. None of these three panels was the "main" or "sub", in our current sense of the words. Power came into the house thru an old knife-blade disconnect with dual cartridge fuses, and then into a large lug box into which all three panels were connected. Pretty standard big house or light commercial stuff for that period.

One thing that was real interesting about that house was that we had no toggle switches for lights. We had momentary contact buttons which controlled enormous banks of relays, all located in the garage or basement. Each relay controlled a lighting circuit, and there were many momentary contact buttons to control each relay. I've seen the same rig in a few churches and schools, but never another house.


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## nate379 (May 22, 2013)

I don't know who exactly started this big scare about killing lineman, bald eagles, baby seals, etc but it's b/s. Unless a person has a BIG gen set (like 50-100Kw... or larger) it wouldn't be able to power the grid even if you wanted to. With a normal homeowner size unit (4-10kw) as soon as it fed onto the grid it would either trip the breaker on the gen set or stall the engine because of way too much load on it.



woodgeek said:


> Dave, your procedure exactly as described will 'work', without requiring any new permanent wiring. Indeed, it is exactly what many folks with generators do. BUT, it does not have a safety interlock, and puts linemen at risk. If someone flipped the breaker back while you were running (ignoring your tag) your genset would backfeed the grid.


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## woodgeek (May 22, 2013)

nate379 said:


> I don't know who exactly started this big scare about killing lineman, bald eagles, baby seals, etc but it's b/s. Unless a person has a BIG gen set (like 50-100Kw... or larger) it wouldn't be able to power the grid. With a normal homeowner size unit (4-10kw) as soon as it fed onto the grid it would either trip the breaker on the gen set or stall the engine because of way too much load on it.


 
I agree with you completely. If your residential service line was down, you could zot the guy fixing it I suppose, with 120V. If they don't have proximity voltage testers, you were backfeeding (with the main on), they didn't hear your genny AND you didn't hear them drive up.

Advice over the internet and electrical code both tend to an overabundance of caution.  I do not own an interlock panel, and run cords all over my house during the rare outage.


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## semipro (May 22, 2013)

nate379 said:


> I don't know who exactly started this big scare about killing lineman, bald eagles, baby seals, etc but it's b/s. Unless a person has a BIG gen set (like 50-100Kw... or larger) it wouldn't be able to power the grid even if you wanted to. With a normal homeowner size unit (4-10kw) as soon as it fed onto the grid it would either trip the breaker on the gen set or stall the engine because of way too much load on it.


This assumes that the house with the generator is still connected to a grid that can suck up all that power. In the rural area I live in there's a lot of space between houses and only a few may be served by a circuit protected by an inline fuse. If that inline fuse is tripped the power from the genny has no place to go but into an unwary lineman.


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## briansol (May 22, 2013)

maple1 said:


> Everyones NEEDS are different. Sounds like you've got yours covered. I've got mine covered without needing any electricity until about the time the freezer gets to thawing. That's my NEED point.


same.  I have some good amount of meat in my freezer and plan to buy a half-cow (free range grass fed filtet!) this fall as well so it would be painful to watch that melt away.

I guess the quest is on to get this working on 120v.
 had a read through this thread, and it looks promising:
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=156864


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## Highbeam (May 22, 2013)

In case you all want to know what an interlock panel looks like, here is my home panel. I installed it about 5 years ago and it passed inpection. The cover is off but the interlock is part of the panel. THis is the more expensive way to do an interlock but I needed a new panel anyway.


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## Ashful (May 23, 2013)

Nice.  Having always lived in big old houses that have seen many additions, I've always wished I had a breaker panel that neat.

My current main panel has three sub-feeds in it.  Two of those three sub-panels have additional sub-feeds to other panels down the line.  You get the idea...


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## BrotherBart (May 23, 2013)

Every time I think about getting fancy I read these generator threads and just go back to being happy with the four 12/3 extension cords run from the genny shed.


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## briansol (May 25, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> Every time I think about getting fancy I read these generator threads and just go back to being happy with the four 12/3 extension cords run from the genny shed.


I hear that.  I'm thinking about going this route as well at least at first.   Those cords are about $50 a pop these days, So i was thinking for $200 and maybe a little more, could I do it the RIGHT way?  And not have to trip over cords, or fish them through cracked windows, etc etc...


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## BrotherBart (May 25, 2013)

I think about a neighbor a few lots from mine. After a week long outage in 2009 he had popped $21,000 for a whole house autostart rig complete with 500 gallon propane tank. Since then he has lost power for three hours, one time.


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## briansol (May 25, 2013)

ouch.  yeah, i looked at getting a whole house set up.  Cheap ones were 8 grand for the unit alone.   I see some others are 3500/4000 bucks but those are diy from northen tool/etc and i'm not really up for that.  $1500 is about the most i want to spend.  That's about what i'll have total in meat at any one time in the house anyway.   Above that, it's cheaper to just throw the meat out. lol


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## Ashful (May 25, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> I think about a neighbor a few lots from mine. After a week long outage in 2009 he had popped $21,000 for a whole house autostart rig complete with 500 gallon propane tank. Since then he has lost power for three hours, one time.



$7000 per hour.  Wonder what his kWh rate works out to?  Hard to criticize the guy though.  He'd have looked like a genius if you guys had the week-long Sandy outages most of my neighbors suffered.


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## begreen (May 27, 2013)

nate379 said:


> I don't know who exactly started this big scare about killing lineman, bald eagles, baby seals, etc but it's b/s. Unless a person has a BIG gen set (like 50-100Kw... or larger) it wouldn't be able to power the grid even if you wanted to. With a normal homeowner size unit (4-10kw) as soon as it fed onto the grid it would either trip the breaker on the gen set or stall the engine because of way too much load on it.


BS. When there is a power outage it usually is because a line is down. If that line is down and there are just a few houses between you and the break, a very lethal shock can happen if the linesman thinks the line is dead. Even if not lethal, if he falls from the bucket he is not likely to do well.

http://www.powerlineman.com/lforum/showthread.php?711-Storm-Death


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## begreen (May 27, 2013)

Backfeeding through a dryer or welding outlet with no neutral is a bad idea, don't do it. Also, backfeeding both buses in the panel could have bad consequences if you have a modern stove or dryer with digital readout, heat pump or heatpump hot water heater, etc. installed and you fail to turn off all 240v breakers first. Repairing fried electronics in some of these appliances can get very pricey. Turn off the main breaker, then turn off all 240v breakers. And if you have a grid-tied solar array, disconnect that too. Play it very safe here folks. If you don't know exactly what you are doing, stick to extension cords or pay an electrician to wire up things correctly. Often the power goes out after dark. When setting up to run from the generator, you don't want to be fumbling, soaking wet in the dark during a big storm. Do some practice runs on a nice dry sunny day to be sure you have the drill down right and tape a preflight check list on the inside of the main panel door to be sure you don't forget anything.


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## FanMan (May 27, 2013)

At my cabin (where my electric needs are minimal, just lights, ceiling fan, and stereo) I backfeed the house with a 120V suicide cord from a 650W Honda portable generator into an outdoor 120V socket, and a jumper cable with spring clips to bridge the legs at the main disconnect.  Bad, unsafe, whatever, but it works and it's only my wife and I.  Our power there has been out since Sandy and we're expecting another month before it's restored.

At home, I recently replaced my electric dryer with a gas dryer, freeing up the 240V line which I moved to the outside of the house... that will be the generator input, gotta buy a bigger generator before the next hurricane (had week long power outages for both Irene and Sandy).


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## jharkin (May 28, 2013)

This thread just confirms my plan to steadily eliminate all the 240V loads in my house.  The dryer is the only one left and that I can live without in a power failure. I would love to chuck the noisy 3K job for a smaller inverter set.


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## jharkin (May 28, 2013)

Joful said:


> $7000 per hour. Wonder what his kWh rate works out to? Hard to criticize the guy though. He'd have looked like a genius if you guys had the week-long Sandy outages most of my neighbors suffered.


 
Genius? For that money he could have put his family up in the Ritz all week and still had a lot of cash left over...


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## jharkin (May 28, 2013)

Joful said:


> Nice. Having always lived in big old houses that have seen many additions, I've always wished I had a breaker panel that neat.
> 
> My current main panel has three sub-feeds in it. Two of those three sub-panels have additional sub-feeds to other panels down the line. You get the idea...


 
Ha ha sounds familiar. We got rid of all the subs and fuse boxes and managed to consolidate it in one panel with a new main drop off the street.. Yet it still looks like a mess. Lots of splices inside the panel extending old BX runs that were not long enough to reach the breakers etc.

It is theraputic ripping out old unused lines though inst it? Especially fun when I find live ones hanging cut off in the crawlspace just waiting to torch the place...




Joful said:


> 240V dryer outlet is typically three-pronged, and is wired with black, white and green. Back at the breaker panel, the other end of the black and white conductors are connected to the two poles of a double-pole breaker, such that both black and white are "hot". They're the opposite ends of a single 240V "phase". Green is always ground.
> 
> In some unique situations, you will come across a 4-prong 240V receptacle. These are more often used for kitchen ranges, but I suppose there may be some 4-pronged dryers out there, as well. In this case, you will have a cable with black, red, white, and green, and it is normal then to use black and red for hot, white for neutral, and green for ground, when connecting this wire at the breaker panel.


 

One other point... The 1996 NEC revision introduced the requirement for 4 wire outlets for Dryers and ranges. So you will see a 4 prong outlet in any house built more recently than that. You also are supposed to update to a 4 wire if you "move or substantially modify" an older outlet.

Even when it was legal, a 3 wire 240/120 outlet was supposed to be wired with SE type cable that has the heavy braided ground and was capable of carrying the neutral load.


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## Highbeam (May 28, 2013)

jharkin said:


> Ha ha sounds familiar. We got rid of all the subs and fuse boxes and managed to consolidate it in one panel with a new main drop off the street.. Yet it still looks like a mess. Lots of splices inside the panel extending old BX runs that were not long enough to reach the breakers etc. It is theraputic ripping out old unused lines though inst it? Especially fun when I find live ones hanging cut off in the crawlspace just waiting to torch the place...


 
Between my new panel and the ceiling, I installed a large gutter box (metal box) and in this box I spliced on extensions to each circuit so that the wires could make it to their new breaker locations. Whole lotta wire nuts in that box.

If you discontinue a circuit and pull the wire from the panel, must you remove it from the structure or do you leave it dead in the walls and attic?


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## Ashful (May 28, 2013)

Judging by the amount of old knob and tube stuff I find decomissioned in old houses, I'd say most just leave it.  I always try to remove when I can, but would not destroy a wall to do so.  I have not seen code specifying one way vs. the other.


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## nate379 (May 28, 2013)

Lineman are trained to treat all lines as live, even if they aren't.  They have fall harness on when in the bucket truck.
A few of my friends are linesman so this is coming right from the source... one is sitting on my couch stealing my beers right now actually. 

A 4-5Kw gen set would have trouble powering more than 1-2 houses unless they hardly had anything on.



begreen said:


> BS. When there is a power outage it usually is because a line is down. If that line is down and there are just a few houses between you and the break, a very lethal shock can happen if the linesman thinks the line is dead. Even if not lethal, if he falls from the bucket he is not likely to do well.
> 
> http://www.powerlineman.com/lforum/showthread.php?711-Storm-Death


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## nate379 (May 28, 2013)

It's not any different than adding in one of those plugs to backfeed into.  Just about every dryer made in the last 10 years uses a 4 wire plug.  A welder is normally two hots and a ground but the ground can be run as neutral, the welder doesn't care and it's still prefectly safe.  Ground and neutral are bonded in many panels anyhow.



begreen said:


> Backfeeding through a dryer or welding outlet with no neutral is a bad idea, don't do it.


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## Highbeam (May 28, 2013)

nate379 said:


> A welder is normally two hots and a ground but the ground can be run as neutral, the welder doesn't care and it's still prefectly safe. Ground and neutral are bonded in many panels anyhow.


 
That's too much. Both items are illegal and unsafe. Maybe I am misunderstanding you?

The ground in a welder circuit (any big three wire romex) is undersized. It is undersized since the only function is to pop the breaker. Not designed to be a current carrying conductor so trying to make it work as a neutral could burn it up and cause a fire.

The ground and neutral are only bonded at the main panel. One place only.


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## Seasoned Oak (May 28, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> Every time I think about getting fancy I read these generator threads and just go back to being happy with the four 12/3 extension cords run from the genny shed.


Thats was the second of 2 reasons i got a wood stove in the first place. I could either pay out big bucks for equipment i may or may not ever use(BIg generator) of pay out smaller bucks for something that 1. Would pay for itself. 2.I would use often. And 3 would work and provide heat and cooking ability even if the power went out for a month or more. It was as they say a no brainer.


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## nate379 (May 28, 2013)

All depends on the wiring I suppose. My welder circuits are 50 amp and use 6 gauge wires. My generator has a max output of 16 amps at 240v. It's plenty big enough wire... by several sizes.

Yes ground and neutral at the main, that is why I said "many panels" and not all or most.



Highbeam said:


> That's too much. Both items are illegal and unsafe. Maybe I am misunderstanding you?
> 
> The ground in a welder circuit (any big three wire romex) is undersized. It is undersized since the only function is to pop the breaker. Not designed to be a current carrying conductor so trying to make it work as a neutral could burn it up and cause a fire.
> 
> The ground and neutral are only bonded at the main panel. One place only.


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## Dave A. (May 28, 2013)

From what I'm reading just using extension cords from the gen to your appliances and devices is not so uncomplicated as it seems. First you need to know if the gen has a floating neutral or a bonded neutral. And then you need to sink a ground rod at the gen, hook up ground and possibly bond the neutral and ground at the gen with a dummy plug.


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## BrotherBart (May 28, 2013)

With a bonded neutral you do not need to ground the generator if you are only cord connecting stuff using the outlets on the genny.

http://www.osha.gov/OshDoc/data_Hurricane_Facts/grounding_port_generator.pdf


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## velvetfoot (May 29, 2013)

And if a portable generator was connected to house wiring using a power inlet with interlock at the panel, the ground and neutral should not be connected at the generator, only back at the panel?  As in, only one place where neutral and ground are bonded?


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## Highbeam (May 29, 2013)

There is great mystery and inconsistency with the whole "floating" neutral thing with generators. After much head scratching, it becomes evident that all you do is plug the genny in to the house's inlet plug which has all 4 wires and in no case is the portable genset grounded to rods at the genset. This is one of those internet situations where you can do a search and find no consensus. It might drive you crazy trying.


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## jharkin (May 29, 2013)

What I read in more than one place is:

For connection to the house via an interlock or transfer switch where the generator is wired through a 4 wire connection

Do not bond the ground and neutral at the generator
Do not use a ground rod at the generator
The theory is that if the ground is bonded at the genny you now have neutral and ground bonded in two places (gen and main breaker box) and its possible for neutral current to flow to the generator over the ground wire. The generator grounds to the house ground rod via the 4 wire cable.​​For use with extension cords

Bond ground and neutral at generator
use a ground rod at generator
My genny had a bonded ground. I rigged it so I can connect/disconnect it as needed and have a piece of welding rod with a thick cable wired to the ground lug that I can use as a simple ground stake when using it as a portable.


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## jharkin (May 29, 2013)

Highbeam said:


> If you discontinue a circuit and pull the wire from the panel, must you remove it from the structure or do you leave it dead in the walls and attic?


 


Joful said:


> Judging by the amount of old knob and tube stuff I find decomissioned in old houses, I'd say most just leave it. I always try to remove when I can, but would not destroy a wall to do so. I have not seen code specifying one way vs. the other.


 
Same Ias I have seen. Professional electricians never seem to take the time to rip out old stuff, they just disconnect and run new in parallel.  That's if you lucky and they dont do something scary like tie romex into an old KT or other ungrounded stuff. In my house we had remnants of KT, early ungrounded fabric covered NM, armored BX and many different variations of romex, all mixed up.

(Off topic, but knob and tube is actually quite safe to use if its in good repair, not covered up with insulation and not overloaded or used with anything that needs a ground.  But that's almost never the case and insurance companies are afraid of it so we tend to just rip it out as a matter of course)

In my house .... Everything thats dead that I can get to, I rip out. All the old stuff other than the armored BX that tests with a decent ground I replace with NM-B. Since I have a small cape most of the wiring is exposed in the basement or up in the attic crawlspace.   Only whats in the walls of the few unrenovated rooms is left.


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## briansol (May 29, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Thats was the second of 2 reasons i got a wood stove in the first place. I could either pay out big bucks for equipment i may or may not ever use(BIg generator) of pay out smaller bucks for something that 1. Would pay for itself. 2.I would use often. And 3 would work and provide heat and cooking ability even if the power went out for a month or more. It was as they say a no brainer.


 
when I first went pellet, I was working 1.5 hours away form home, 9+ hours a day.   Sheer logisitics of being gone for 12 hours a day meant i'd have to rely on the oil pig to keep the house warm after the wood stove burned out.  Perhaps a retired man or someone working from home, or someone with a spouse at home, etc to feed it, this becomes a better solution.   the pellet stove allows me to top it off before I leave for work and come home to it still burning and keeping the place warm.  I also don't have to wake up in the middle of the night to stuff it, poke it, or wake up to a cold house either.

Also, while great for the winter, it doesn't do a thing for keeping my meat from spoiling in the summer.  I'd argue that I have more power outages in the summer from T-storms and such than I do in the winter from snow and ice.

While I do have an insert, my fireplace is a working unit.  If it REALLY came down to it in the winter, I could easily rip the stove and pipe out and burn wood directly in the fireplace.  I do have about a 1/2 cord of wood in the yard stacked that I use mostly for summer firepit stuff.  Should get me through a couple days at least, and there's tons of woods near by with deadfall to scavenge if necessary.  My old man lives just a mile away and has a few cords split from sandy havoc hat brought down a few trees in his yard.  And since his fireplace doesn't work (leaks smoke like crazy), pops can bring the heat over here!  lol  I have 3 propane tanks at the house now.  1 on the grill, 2 as spares.  That will supply cooking for a little while at least.

I've considered getting a 2nd stove, and it would be a wood stove, on the level2 below my pellet stove.   I have a split level that is 2x2 if you will, half stories each. flight.
======== 4 (bedrooms)
............========3  (pellet level, kitchen, livingroom)
========2 (den/living/playroom/office/etc behind at garage level)
..........=========1 (basement)

level 1 stays warm enough from the oil pig running the hot water... mid 60s without anything else.  it is a finished area.  tv room, man cave, whatever you want to call it.   I currently rent it out to a buddy of mine and he uses it as a studio apartment type deal.  The oil pig also runs to heat level 2 to 55* most the time when i'm not using it (which is basically never....)   I'd like to put the wood stove at this level to a, help heat it to get me even further off oil, but also provide another heat source option.

The problem is venting.   I don't know how to clear the bedroom windows with a wood stove up out, and up over two stories + roof pitch without it looking hideous.  This is also the street view side of my house too.  my furnace and chimney are on the complete other side of the house.

Anyway, ultimately, the generator was to run the fridge and freezer to keep my meat from spoiling.   anything above and beyond, is pure 'nice to have'.  I'd LIKE to run my pellet stove, LIKE to have some lights, laptop, etc etc, but none of it is actually required.


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## Seasoned Oak (May 29, 2013)

II actually do have a generator. Its hard  to start or does not start at all even though it has only a few operating hours on it. I doubt if id bother with it unless the power was out for days. Every situation is different as to power interruptions. Depending where you live in relation to power plants ,substations,tree lined delivery routes. In 25 years in this house the most the power ever went out is 3 hours or so. The temp in my fridge and  freezer did not change even 1 degree in that time span. After years of keeping a deep freeze i have determined that its not worth the cost with all the things that go unused for too long and have to be thrown away  anyway we are in the process of emptying its contents so we can decommission it.
I do like the idea of running the house off my work truck power inverter if we were to have an extended outage. Probably the route id take.


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## begreen (May 29, 2013)

You're lucky. We can depend on the power going out from 10-120 hrs annually and sometimes even longer. Our location is an ideal candidate for underground lines due to all the trees, but it ain't gonna happen in my lifetime, if ever.


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## Dave A. (May 29, 2013)

jharkin said:


> For use with extension cords
> 
> Bond ground and neutral at generator
> use a ground rod at generator


 
That's what I had read and seems to be safer.

The OSHA article dated 10/2005 doesn't even acknowledge the current acceptability of interlocks, I wonder if it represents their current position.

Not an electrician but it kind of bothers me having the generator itself act as the only ground in the system. Sure your car works that way, I guess. (But I've had vehicles with static electricity problems on exit at times.) So it's kind of like having your house appliances hooked up to your car and relying on the car (gen) as the ground if you do it the way the 2005 OSHA  article suggests.

Many of the grounding rules just don't seem to be consistent.


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## Highbeam (May 29, 2013)

How does one, "bond ground and neutral at generator"? You plug stuff in, got it. You attach a ground rod to the ground lug, got it. No idea how to bond the g and N.


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## Seasoned Oak (May 29, 2013)

begreen said:


> You're lucky. We can depend on the power going out from 10-120 hrs annually and sometimes even longer. Our location is an ideal candidate for underground lines due to all the trees, but it ain't gonna happen in my lifetime, if ever.


So how do you deal with it ?


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## jharkin (May 29, 2013)

Highbeam said:


> How does one, "bond ground and neutral at generator"? You plug stuff in, got it. You attach a ground rod to the ground lug, got it. No idea how to bond the g and N.


 

The neutral winding on the alternator is physically wired to the generator frame. So if you set a multimeter to continuity check and test it you will get a circuit between the ground and neutral sockets of the power outlets. On my gensetr, you can unscrew the end cover from the alternator and on the neutral terminal there are two wires one goes to the neutral wiring for the outlets, the other to the frame. Unscrew the wire to the frame and viola you now have a floating neutral. Now a continuity tester will show open circuit between neutral and ground at the outlets.


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## Dave A. (May 30, 2013)

The article I read said to always check first for continuity at the gen between ground and neutral (as Jeremy suggests) and proceed accordingly. Floating neutral on gen works best with wiring gen to house, bonded neutral works best for extension cord wiring direct to appliances.

For wiring to house through a transfer switch if the the gen has bonded neutral you need the transfer switch to be able to switch the neutral connection to the house panel (as well as the two hots) avoiding the neutral bonding at the main panel (the bonding at the gen would then be the single bond of ground and neutral).

For extension cord hook up direct from gen to appliances with floating neutral (unbonded) at gen it needs to be bonded and the article recommended a dummy plug with jumper wire between neutral and ground.


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## Highbeam (May 30, 2013)

Way too complicated for regular people to deal with the floating neutral issue.


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## jharkin (May 30, 2013)

Which is why "normal people" should hire an electrician to do stuff like hardwiring a generator. Maybe most of the time you will get away with cutting corners but the one time you don't might be deadly.


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## Highbeam (May 30, 2013)

jharkin said:


> Which is why "normal people" should hire an electrician to do stuff like hardwiring a generator. Maybe most of the time you will get away with cutting corners but the one time you don't might be deadly.


 
Perhaps, but this is not always about hardwiring a generator. This could be a regular guy wanting to plug in a refrigerator with an extension cord. If he is able to determine the bonding regime of his genset he then may be required to make some sort of jumper device or open up the high voltage end of the generator to "fix" it.

There's a place for electricians. That place shouldn't be plugging in a refer to a duplex outlet on a portable genset. I don't have a solution though and I can guarantee that an electrician will seldom be involved with this in real life.


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## BrotherBart (May 30, 2013)

Yeah I am one of them. All I know about electricity is not to stick my finger in light sockets. Though I understand that most "contractor" grade portable gennies have bonded grounds to meet OSHA work site rules I don't think my two 3,500 watt ones are bonded. Since they stay in the shed I built for them and only do the extension cord thing I am gonna ground them using the lugs on the gennies. Separate grounds for each. I will pound two pieces of rebar into the ground under the shed floor and use 10 gauge stranded for the wire.

Unless somebody tells me that I am gonna light myself up or smoke the fridge.   I have powered the essentials for a week at a time three times with no drama but that doesn't mean things were done right.


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## seige101 (Jun 1, 2013)

nate379 said:


> I don't know who exactly started this big scare about killing lineman, bald eagles, baby seals, etc but it's b/s. Unless a person has a BIG gen set (like 50-100Kw... or larger) it wouldn't be able to power the grid even if you wanted to. With a normal homeowner size unit (4-10kw) as soon as it fed onto the grid it would either trip the breaker on the gen set or stall the engine because of way too much load on it.



Because every time there is an extended outtage and people do stupid things while desperate i hear about a lineman getting zapped. It's a very real thing.


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## begreen (Jun 3, 2013)

Exactly. There are a lot of not so sharp people out there that do dangerous things. If we're lucky, they just earn a Darwin award. If not, they take others down with their ignorance.


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## briansol (Jun 4, 2013)

Back to my OP, I can't seem to get the website people to respond to my email/contact form.  Which has me weary about sending $1500+ to them.

Anyone know of any other places that sell those tri-carb yammys?


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