# Wow burning biomass is carbon neutral !



## peakbagger (Nov 26, 2014)

EPA previously had pulled the exemption for CO2 emissions for biomass plants partially based on the flawed politically driven and ultimately discredited Manomet Study that the state of Mass used to ban biomass generated power from counting as renewable.

The EPA did a long term study and came to the conclusion that burning biomass is relatively carbon neutral although several environmental organizations are crying foul.

http://biomassmagazine.com/articles/9558/supreme-courts-review-of-epa-authority-may-affect-biomass


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## woodgeek (Nov 26, 2014)

biomass burning with carbon dioxide sequestration is carbon NEGATIVE.


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## peakbagger (Nov 27, 2014)

If and when there is a dollar value for carbon, I expect smart entrepreneurs will convert old biomass boilers into gasifiers to burn the volatiles in the wood and then remove the remaining carbon which they will then mix in with organic wastes and sell it as terra preta (super soil). They will get revenue from power generation, carbon credits for the carbon that is sequestered in the terra preta and selling the soil.


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## woodgeek (Nov 27, 2014)

Sure.  Or if you already have an existing coal CSS infrastructure, you could just blend in a % of dry biomass pellets or biochar to offset the 10% residual emissions of the plant to make it zero carbon.


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## begreen (Nov 27, 2014)

There is a tremendous amount of energy close to home, no butts about it. At a recent EPA webinar it was stated by the biogas council that biogas derived anaerobically from septage (processed sewage) could provide about 12% of all US electrical needs. And that is 24/7. According to one of the presenters, biogas has the lowest carbon intensity of available fuels.


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## Dune (Nov 28, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> Sure.  Or if you already have an existing coal CSS infrastructure, you could just blend in a % of dry biomass pellets or biochar to offset the 10% residual emissions of the plant to make it zero carbon.


It would have to be biochar not plain pelltes, since the pellets could decompose and release methane.
Also any wood fuel use is carbon negative since the roots are left underground where they become constituents of the soil (with some loss to decomposition but clearly not all).


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## woodgeek (Nov 28, 2014)

I wasn't clear.  I was supposing we could completely combust the biomass/pellets (in a future coal carbon sequestration system), and bury the CO2, rather than than only burning the H2 component (wood gas) and burying the C.


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## Dune (Nov 28, 2014)

No need to wait.
We have all the technology that we need right now.
The only thing lacking is the will to use it.
Your plan of burning the volatiles and burying the carbon as a soil enhancement is a perfect example. (not saying tech can't be improved just that we have to stop waiting for a silver bullet and use what we have.)


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## woodgeek (Nov 28, 2014)

Totally agree.  All the tech we need to solve global warming exists today, at a very modest price, see my recent post:

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/an-interesting-take-on-climate-change.134938/page-3#post-1823064

Calls for 'more energy R and D funding' are mostly deflections from 'the right' to keep BAU going a little bit longer


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## peakbagger (Nov 28, 2014)

I work with various energy developers. They are constantly combing the regulations to figure out what incentives are in place and how much money they can make by leveraging the incentives. Rarely if ever is it new technology but rather older technology that becomes economic to use. A few months back I posted a article about a renewable liquid fuel conversion at a nearby hospital. The company that supplied the fuel has been able to make it for many years but the market didn't support it. The original product they made with is is "liquid smoke" a flavoring product. Now that there are RINs which are incentives for liquid heating fuels, the company is now expanding with another project announced for Calremont NH.


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## TMonter (Dec 6, 2014)

begreen said:


> There is a tremendous amount of energy close to home, no butts about it. At a recent EPA webinar it was stated by the biogas council that biogas derived anaerobically from septage (processed sewage) could provide about 12% of all US electrical needs. And that is 24/7. According to one of the presenters, biogas has the lowest carbon intensity of available fuels.
> 
> View attachment 145950



Except that this ignores the reality of biogas utilization and generation. I've worked extensively with biogas and digesters and the reality is they aren't effective in many situations. Most digesters are attached to wastewater plants and generally the output of them is used locally for heating and not power generation. The level of complexity to move from heating to power generation simply isn't viable in 95% of locations.


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## peakbagger (Dec 7, 2014)

I was involved tangentially with biogas a few years ago. Some of the rules of thumb I ran into showed that its never going to be a major contributor.

The easiest way to visualize the potential is think of cow with a 100 watt light bulb in its rear end. The cow can generate enough power to keep the bulb lit at 100 Watts. Pigs were 40 watts and fowl were about 2.5 to 5 watts. I never saw how big a light bulb would be inserted in a humans rear end  but would expect its somewhere between a cow and pig.

Environmentally, organics wastes give off methane which is potent global warming gas and is also a potentially very nasty on the environment if its not treated correctly, therefore generating some power to reduce its impact on the environment is important but not the solution to the energy crisis.


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 7, 2014)

But the fossil fuels used to facilitate transporting the bio-mass are NOT carbon neutral.


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## Doug MacIVER (Dec 7, 2014)

train loads run by my factory everyday, semass killed all the downwind trees in the area. much like the old BFI landfill in E Bridgewater. that landfill is now a landfill gas electric facility.


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## begreen (Dec 7, 2014)

peakbagger said:


> I was involved tangentially with biogas a few years ago. Some of the rules of thumb I ran into showed that its never going to be a major contributor.
> 
> The easiest way to visualize the potential is think of cow with a 100 watt light bulb in its rear end. The cow can generate enough power to keep the bulb lit at 100 Watts. Pigs were 40 watts and fowl were about 2.5 to 5 watts. I never saw how big a light bulb would be inserted in a humans rear end  but would expect its somewhere between a cow and pig.
> 
> Environmentally, organics wastes give off methane which is potent global warming gas and is also a potentially very nasty on the environment if its not treated correctly, therefore generating some power to reduce its impact on the environment is important but not the solution to the energy crisis.



The main problem is that most of this energy is going to waste (pun intended). It is much more efficient for a dairy to process the dung and turn it into good fertilizer and fuel for farm vehicles than to let it leach into the aquifer or just go to waste. Human waste should be powering buses, garbage trucks and other vehicles instead of just venting into the atmosphere.


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## BrotherBart (Dec 7, 2014)

Could my septic tank power my garden tractor?


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## Grisu (Dec 8, 2014)

What did you have for lunch yesterday?


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## JustWood (Dec 8, 2014)

begreen said:


> The main problem is that most of this energy is going to waste (pun intended). It is much more efficient for a dairy to process the dung and turn it into good fertilizer and fuel for farm vehicles than to let it leach into the aquifer or just go to waste. Human waste should be powering buses, garbage trucks and other vehicles instead of just venting into the atmosphere.


Human waste is making power. Landfills are taking the sludge at scheduled intervals to mix with demo wood matter and other trash which basicLEE acts as a gas factory when mixed. Most large landfills now are plumbed for gas/electric generation.
Not sure if there is any capture on the dewatering/treatment end though.
Wonder if poo pellet manufacturing is feasible ?


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## begreen (Dec 8, 2014)

Poop doesn't go into landfills, though you are right that many areas are starting to tap the methane from landfills. Unfortunately a lot of them just flare it off or vent it. That is, those municipalitiesvv that had the foresight to contain the landfill. Locally our county takes the septage (dewatered poop sludge) and runs it through a huge anaerobic digester. This includes Seattle. The biogas runs a similarly huge fuel cell power plant. The "loop" digestate is mixed with sawdust, composted and sold as a good soil amendment.  I plan on trying out a batch of this product next spring. It's been tested to be much cleaner than the average yardwaste.

http://www.kingcounty.gov/environment/wastewater/Biosolids/GardenCompost.aspx


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## Doug MacIVER (Dec 8, 2014)

Milorganite has been around since the 1920's.milwaukee's best.


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## begreen (Dec 8, 2014)

The poop that made Milwaukee famous.


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## JustWood (Dec 10, 2014)

begreen said:


> Poop doesn't go into landfills,


Sure does. I'm in one of 3 different landfills daily and there is at least 1 sometimes up to 3 sludge trucks dumping at any given time I'm there. Some is composted only because landfills are permitted to only take so many TPD likewise only so much is allowed to be composted per day due to permitting depending on the facility




6.41 *Sludge *from wastewater treatment plants, including biosolids, may be accepted at the

Cedar Hills Landfill only if accompanied by a Waste Clearance Decision and


consistent with the landfill’s Plan of Operations. Industrial sludges are handled as

other industrial wastes.


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## peakbagger (Dec 10, 2014)

Depends on the poop. Many municipal sewer systems have too much heavy metals and other pollutants to allow them sludge to be reused as compost. Generally it ends up in a landfill if its too contaminated. Sometimes its used fro landfill cover.


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## TMonter (Dec 10, 2014)

JustWood said:


> Human waste is making power. Landfills are taking the sludge at scheduled intervals to mix with demo wood matter and other trash which basicLEE acts as a gas factory when mixed. Most large landfills now are plumbed for gas/electric generation.
> Not sure if there is any capture on the dewatering/treatment end though.
> Wonder if poo pellet manufacturing is feasible ?



The sludge that comes out of a wastewater plant isn't poo, it's the dead bugs that are in the process to break down the waste.


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## begreen (Dec 10, 2014)

peakbagger said:


> Depends on the poop. Many municipal sewer systems have too much heavy metals and other pollutants to allow them sludge to be reused as compost. Generally it ends up in a landfill if its too contaminated. Sometimes its used fro landfill cover.


That is correct. In heavy industrial areas heavy metals can be a serious concern. We're fortunate here that our processed, digested and composted digestate turns out to be pretty clean. Another issue in the modern world is antibiotics traveling through the waste stream.


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