# Two GFCI outlets on same circuit



## John_M (Feb 17, 2010)

My kitchen and bathroom are on opposite sides of the same wall. I want to add a 15amp GFCI duplex receptacle in the bathroom on a non-wet wall. This new receptacle and one in the kitchen are located within the space between studs so picking up power from the kitchen receptacle will be easy. This new receptacle will be the fourth on this circuit which is already protected by a 15amp GFCI receptacle. 

Does the NEC allow two GFCI receptacles on the same circuit? Is there a down-side to having two GFCI receptacles on the same circuit?  Regards, John_M


----------



## Cutter (Feb 17, 2010)

It might be easier to just replace the breaker with a GFI breaker


----------



## LLigetfa (Feb 17, 2010)

Around here a kitchen receptacle cannot share a breaker.  In fact we have to "split" them and use two breakers for each duplex outlet so there would be no chaining of another outlet.


----------



## PJF1313 (Feb 17, 2010)

If no one else can give you a definite answer, I'll take a look in the '08 NEC book tomorrow - it's at work, and I'm about 40 miles away ;-)


----------



## Highbeam (Feb 17, 2010)

John_M said:
			
		

> My kitchen and bathroom are on opposite sides of the same wall. I want to add a 15amp GFCI duplex receptacle in the bathroom on a non-wet wall. This new receptacle and one in the kitchen are located within the space between studs so picking up power from the kitchen receptacle will be easy. This new receptacle will be the fourth on this circuit which is already protected by a 15amp GFCI receptacle.
> 
> Does the NEC allow two GFCI receptacles on the same circuit? Is there a down-side to having two GFCI receptacles on the same circuit?  Regards, John_M



In America you can absolutely have many GFCI outlets on one circuit. There is no downside except some rumors of nuisance tripping which I've never actually experienced. I like to wire each outlet on pigtails so that each outlet only is connected to only three wires. This method does not allow downstream protection but also allows one GFCI outlet to trip without tripping the rest of the downstream outlets. 

If you are really trying to stick to the NEC then you'll find that the bathroom circuit can't be shared with any other circuit such as the kitchen. I had to run a new dedicated circuit to my bathroom to pass code.


----------



## ironpony (Feb 17, 2010)

and also 20 amp dedicated


----------



## SlyFerret (Feb 17, 2010)

As far as I'm aware, you only need one GFCI outlet on the circuit, as it can protect the rest of the outlets on the circuit.

-SF


----------



## Highbeam (Feb 17, 2010)

ironpony said:
			
		

> and also 20 amp dedicated



Yes, a dedicated 20 amp "bathroom" circuit. Though the NEC allowed me power more than one bathroom with that dedicated bathroom circuit.


----------



## seige101 (Feb 18, 2010)

John_M said:
			
		

> My kitchen and bathroom are on opposite sides of the same wall. I want to add a 15amp GFCI duplex receptacle in the bathroom on a non-wet wall. This new receptacle and one in the kitchen are located within the space between studs so picking up power from the kitchen receptacle will be easy. This new receptacle will be the fourth on this circuit which is already protected by a 15amp GFCI receptacle.
> 
> Does the NEC allow two GFCI receptacles on the same circuit? Is there a down-side to having two GFCI receptacles on the same circuit?  Regards, John_M



You can in theory put another GFCI outlet on there. Only concerns might be under a trip situation the kitchen might trip, or both.

If it's all ready protected why put another one on there though?

Like others have said, new codes require a dedicated 20 amp bathroom circuit, and kitchen circuits are for the kitchen only this would be for new construction or if you are remodeling down to bare studs.

If you had easy basement access and space in your panel i would opt for the dedicated circuit, if not tap off the kitchen circuit and call it a day.


----------



## John_M (Feb 18, 2010)

Okay, guys, one more small bit of information: The kitchen and bathroom circuits are already protected by 20A circuit breakers. The bathroom breaker feeds a dedicated 20A duplex outlet. 

Your suggestions provide the info. I need. Here is what I will do: Tap off the kitchen circuit which is aready protected by the 15A GFCI duplex outlet. The reason for this second GFCI in the chain is because it is located about 3' from a shower opening. This new duplex outlet in the bathroom will also be a 15A GFCI - the fourth and last  outlet on that chain. Because there will be no load attached to this new outlet, nuisance tripping should not be an issue. The installation will be started in about an hour and should be completed this morning. Later today I'll let you know whether tripping the new outlet also trips the first GFCI outlet in this chain. 

The purpose of this outlet is to power a fan (0.6amps) used for drying the shower after use. Power cord from the fan will not touch the floor. John_M


----------



## fbelec (Feb 18, 2010)

John_M said:
			
		

> Okay, guys, one more small bit of information: The kitchen and bathroom circuits are already protected by 20A circuit breakers. The bathroom breaker feeds a dedicated 20A duplex outlet.
> 
> Your suggestions provide the info. I need. Here is what I will do: Tap off the kitchen circuit which is aready protected by the 15A GFCI duplex outlet. The reason for this second GFCI in the chain is because it is located about 3' from a shower opening. This new duplex outlet in the bathroom will also be a 15A GFCI - the fourth and last  outlet on that chain. Because there will be no load attached to this new outlet, nuisance tripping should not be an issue. The installation will be started in about an hour and should be completed this morning. Later today I'll let you know whether tripping the new outlet also trips the first GFCI outlet in this chain.
> 
> The purpose of this outlet is to power a fan (0.6amps) used for drying the shower after use. Power cord from the fan will not touch the floor. John_M



kitchen counter outlets are not to be tapped for any other outlet than a 2nd kitchen counter outlet. kitchen counter needs two 20 amp circuits. if there is a third kitchen circuit you can tap from there as long as the circuit is not located at the counters. that is the national electrical code. that said, bathrooms need their own 20 amp circuit. you can tap of that for a 2nd or 3rd outlet but that's it. no permanently mounted exhaust fans or lighting but the mirror light that is feed from the same electrical outlet box as the receptacle outlet. 
this is all per national electric code.


----------



## John_M (Feb 18, 2010)

fbelec, thanks for the info. I just finished the installation the way I described and everything works as it should. However, working or not, it does not meed the NEC requirements. One of these days I'll undo what is done and run a new 20A circuit from the main panel where I have 5 or 6 slots available for additional breakers. The only hard part will be drilling a hole up from the basement exactly between the studs above. It'l be easy to pull the 12/2 w/ ground up to the new box. Projects, projects, they just do not stop. John_M


----------



## Gooserider (Feb 18, 2010)

John_M said:
			
		

> fbelec, thanks for the info. I just finished the installation the way I described and everything works as it should. However, working or not, it does not meed the NEC requirements. One of these days I'll undo what is done and run a new 20A circuit from the main panel where I have 5 or 6 slots available for additional breakers. The only hard part will be drilling a hole up from the basement exactly between the studs above. It'l be easy to pull the 12/2 w/ ground up to the new box. Projects, projects, they just do not stop. John_M



A trick that I have found useful a few times when trying to locate places to drill is to make a "marker hole" with a very tiny bit, and then measure an offset from that point...  What I did is cut a wire coathanger to give me a 6-10" length, and chuck it in a drill - then use that to go down through the floor next to my desired point on the wall - it's slow going, but the wire will go through wood if you take it easy.  Probably it will go through wires, but not plumbing, so you have some measure of safety that way...  Once you've gone through the floor, note how far off, and the direction to where you want the main hole, and go to the other side and look for the end of your marker bit...

Using the coathanger wire has the advantage of low cost, and letting you make longer bits than the standard "jobber length" that small bits come in, which aren't long enough to make it through a floor or wall...

The advantage is that the hole you make with the marker bit is small enough that it is not readily visible, and can easily be patched, while it gives you a definite place to measure from to locate the "real" hole...   I did this several times when doing the low-voltage setup on our house, as it was often a challenge to locate the openings for my wall jacks otherwise...

Gooserider


----------



## John_M (Feb 18, 2010)

Thanks, Gooserider for the excellent tip. I just returned from the basement and am able to use the vertical, through-the-floor copper return pipe for the bathroom's circulating h/w baseboard heater unit as the benchmark. The distance from the back of the copper to the 1/2" sheetrock wall is 1" Allow 2.75" to the center of the wall's bottom plate. So, 4.25" behind the copper - to the rear of the house and 6.75" to the left side of the copper will place me right under the "quick set"?  box I installed this morning. I'll use a 1/8" x 12" drill bit for the pilot hole. After drilling the pilot hole I'll go up to the bathroom to see if the drill bit is visible. If so, I goofed. If not, I'll drill a 9/16" hole with a spade bit and pull the wire through.

fbelec, Is the code requirement as you describe it a more recent (2008) addition to the NEC or has this requirement always been as you describe?  

The installation, based on my intended use of it is now is quite safe but not code compliant. Sometime in the next month I'll bring it into NEC compliance. 

John_M


----------



## jf254 (Feb 18, 2010)

Same concept as gooserider, we use insulation hangers at work to landmark spots. they are stiff enough to go through and not collapse.


----------



## fbelec (Feb 20, 2010)

John_M said:
			
		

> Thanks, Gooserider for the excellent tip. I just returned from the basement and am able to use the vertical, through-the-floor copper return pipe for the bathroom's circulating h/w baseboard heater unit as the benchmark. The distance from the back of the copper to the 1/2" sheetrock wall is 1" Allow 2.75" to the center of the wall's bottom plate. So, 4.25" behind the copper - to the rear of the house and 6.75" to the left side of the copper will place me right under the "quick set"?  box I installed this morning. I'll use a 1/8" x 12" drill bit for the pilot hole. After drilling the pilot hole I'll go up to the bathroom to see if the drill bit is visible. If so, I goofed. If not, I'll drill a 9/16" hole with a spade bit and pull the wire through.
> 
> fbelec, Is the code requirement as you describe it a more recent (2008) addition to the NEC or has this requirement always been as you describe?
> 
> ...



yes that is the code now, and i think it was code 10 years for the bath outlets and 15 for the kitchen. just for sh--s and giggles if you bring up a new line to anywhere in the house but the kitchen or bath you'll have to use a arc fault circuit breaker. they're not cheap. and as far as your install goes, you tapped off the kitchen outlet, did you use 12/2 or 14/2 romex?


----------



## John_M (Feb 20, 2010)

fbelec, I used 12/2 romex. Actually, it is a very good, secure, and safe install. For instance, I used all new wire nuts (including a new "Greenie") in the kitchen outlet. On the outlets, the wire was wrapped  around the screws (2/3 - 3/4 of a wrap and in the proper direction) instead of using inserts on rear of outlet. Once the wires were connected, I wrapped electrician's tape around that part of the outlet to prevent even the possibility of a finger, tool, etc. touching the hot side of the receptacle. 

When finished, the installation was tested with one of the typical plug-in circuit testers w/GFCI trip button. The chain of kitchen outlets tested okay, as did the bathroom outlet. As expected, when the kitchen GFCI is tripped all the outlets after that one, including the new bathroom outlet, trip properly. When the new bathroom outlet is tripped, only that outlet trips because there is no load attached to it. 

Here is what I will have to do to run the new circuit: Drill a 5/8" hole through 18 floor joists, all of whose spaces are filled with insulation, domestic and outside water, heating and drain pipe. Then work in a very awkward position reaching over my Weil-Mclain boiler.  All of this work will be from half way up a 6' step ladder. I must use a walker or cane when moving around the house so I am not a poster child for strength and stability while working from a ladder. 

All kitchen receptacles and the new bath outlet work so well and the installation is so "clean" that I am tempted to leave well enough alone and not run the new circuit. There is a greater possibility of me being injured using the ladder than any damage or injury by stray current resulting from the new outlet. The cost of an arc fault circuit breaker for the new circuit must also be considered.    

Your further comments will be much appreciated. John_M


----------



## LLigetfa (Feb 20, 2010)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> A trick that I have found useful a few times when trying to locate places to drill is to make a "marker hole" with a very tiny bit, and then measure an offset from that point...


I just pull off the base shoe and drive in a long deck screw next to where I want the hole, then find where the screw protrudes and measure as you do the offset.  To make sure I found the right screw, I put a magnet on it and see if the other end is magnetized.  Often you can see where nails through the base plate were driven and sometimes other existing penetrations for wiring, plumbing, ductwork, etc., all make good benchmarks.


----------



## John_M (Feb 20, 2010)

LLigetfa, The nail through the baseplate is an excellent technique and what I used many years ago while living in Alaska. I learned it from some electricians who were doing minor upgrades to a home I had built. Yours is the first I have heard of the magnet technique I'll have to keep that in mind.  However, it seems all the walls in my house are built directly on top of TJI's with wide tops and bottoms.  So,  almost all the nails seem to be driven into the floor joists (that's good). I was unable to locate any between the joists.

I think I am at least temporarily finished with this small project. Or, do small projects ever stop becoming? John_M


----------



## fbelec (Feb 21, 2010)

John_M said:
			
		

> fbelec, I used 12/2 romex. Actually, it is a very good, secure, and safe install. For instance, I used all new wire nuts (including a new "Greenie") in the kitchen outlet. On the outlets, the wire was wrapped  around the screws (2/3 - 3/4 of a wrap and in the proper direction) instead of using inserts on rear of outlet. Once the wires were connected, I wrapped electrician's tape around that part of the outlet to prevent even the possibility of a finger, tool, etc. touching the hot side of the receptacle.
> 
> When finished, the installation was tested with one of the typical plug-in circuit testers w/GFCI trip button. The chain of kitchen outlets tested okay, as did the bathroom outlet. As expected, when the kitchen GFCI is tripped all the outlets after that one, including the new bathroom outlet, trip properly. When the new bathroom outlet is tripped, only that outlet trips because there is no load attached to it.
> 
> ...



your installation sounds fine. if this were 25 or 30 years ago thats what they did back then and have had no fires starting. you did well. it doesn't meet todays codes. but it works.


----------



## John_M (Feb 21, 2010)

fbelec, Thanks for nudging me in the right direction by asking all the right questions. Your guidance is much appreciated. John_M


----------



## fbelec (Feb 22, 2010)

John_M said:
			
		

> fbelec, Thanks for nudging me in the right direction by asking all the right questions. Your guidance is much appreciated. John_M



anytime


----------

