# Pellet Boiler Questions



## Mojo29 (Feb 16, 2015)

Newbie here and was looking for any info on the Kedel or Blackstar pellet boilers.  Was looking to buy one and have it installed.  Also does anyone know if I can direct vent these in NJ?  What are the spacing requirements for a chimney system or direct venting?  

Is there anyone in NJ who can install a pellet boiler?


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## TaylorIE (Feb 17, 2015)

Mojo29 said:


> Newbie here and was looking for any info on the Kedel or Blackstar pellet boilers.  Was looking to buy one and have it installed.  Also does anyone know if I can direct vent these in NJ?  What are the spacing requirements for a chimney system or direct venting?
> 
> Is there anyone in NJ who can install a pellet boiler?



Hi Mojo29, my name is Taylor Lynn and I am the Sales and Dealer Relations Manager for Interphase Energy--exclusive importer of Kedel Pellet Boilers and I would be happy to speak with you more about Kedel.  Kedel offers an advanced and economical alternative to fossil fuels without sacrificing the convenience, peace of mind and service customers want from their central heating system. With 88-90 percent combustion efficiency, the Kedel is extremely efficient. It is also smart and savvy, with built in web-enabled controllers that allow you to monitor boilers from just about anywhere. The Kedel is also modular, so it can be set up in a variety of sizes and pellet storage options.  Our licensed dealers can get more into it, but chimney draft should be a min. 5 PA. and be stable.  Direct venting is possible with the installation of a power venter (4" for our 54k and 102k BTU models, and 5" for our 170k BTU models).  At the moment we do not have any authorized dealers in NJ, but we would like to and may be able to work something out.  Please connect with me for further conversation (taylor@kedelboiler.com).  Thanks!


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## Danni the Dane (Feb 18, 2015)

Hi "newbie" from another "newbie" on this site 

Just to verify what Tayler writes regarding the pellet system from Kedel, the I can reccomend this setup/system. I have been useing pellet systems from Kedel (in Denmark, where it is produced, it is sold under another name, but still as Black star ank RTB models)

I have been using these systems for about 6 years in my own house and have about 10-11 years experience with it from my parents house as well, so I have some experience to give 

If you consider to install a Kedel pellet boiler, please be adviced, that the RTB model from Kedel is STATE of THE ART and if the Black star model impress, please take your time to check out the RTB model. I Work alot away from home in long periods, and due to different reasons, I got a good offer on a RTB so I changed my normal model for an RTB and I have NOT regred this at any time. I started it up in october and I have only refilled pellets into it, and last week I emtied the ash tray (Space for ash for yet another month use) but I wanted to se the ash - I know "NERD" 

Oh, One of the benifits with the Kedel brand is the easy to replace and low Price spare parts - it is constructed so function and Price walks "hand in hand" and many of these spareparts is possible to replace by the user when needed - this is my experience, and please note, I have not replaced any spareparts yet (well, One... but that was me trying to do something wrong  )

I live en Europe, Denmark (origin country of this system) and I found this site today. I am a "bio energy nerd" and likes these online sites where discussions about bio energy lives - I use stokerforum.dk and stokerpro.dk (Danish forums) and one of the reasons I likes these forums is, that it gives a objektive user2user experience of the different brands and not only a seller's version of the product  I hope Taylor agrees with my opinion given above when I write "5 out of 5 stars" for NBE Kedel series, and an extra star for the RTB to burst the scale 

Sorry for my English


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## Tennman (Feb 18, 2015)

From the hills of Tennessee.... a very big, welcome Danni. You are going to fit right in as a fellow bio energy nerd (used interchangeably with geek). Great review on the Kedel. Blessings


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## DBNH22 (Feb 18, 2015)

I don't have any experience with the Kedel other than contacting Jacob for a brief phone call when I initially started looking into the different pellet boilers.  Jacob never called me back though.

I ended up buying a Windhager Biowin and I'd recommend it without reservation.  Marc Caluwe is the American distributor and you might see him posting on here.  

This is my second year with the Biowin and I'm happy with it.  It cannot be direct vented though and I'm surprised that the Kedel can.   My advice is to lay your eyes on the units in person before picking one.  I would also not recommend buying a pellet boiler of any kind unless you plan on staying in your current home for at least 6-7 years because that seems to be the average minimum payback time.

Also look into federal and state programs to mitigate the cost of a pellet boiler.

best of luck.


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## Danni the Dane (Feb 18, 2015)

Dana B said:


> I don't have any experience with the Kedel other than contacting Jacob for a brief phone call when I initially started looking into the different pellet boilers.  Jacob never called me back though.
> 
> I ended up buying a Windhager Biowin and I'd recommend it without reservation.  Marc Caluwe is the American distributor and you might see him posting on here.
> 
> ...



Quick question, the Biowin pellet boiler is, as I know it from other users on www.stokerpro.dk, an Austrian Top of the ART producer of pellet boilers (a quick note, Austria is the lead nation on quality pellet boilers) - but what is the unit cost for such boiler in the states?! In Denmark, where I am from, the unit price (without installation cost) is about x 2 / x 2,5 of the RTB boiler from NBE. So if the price range is about the same "over there," then I think a pay back period of 6-7 years is quite good. Our RTB (in general switch over from oil to pellets) had a paybacktime on 1½-2 years when going from the horrible boiler from 1965 (WTF) with a oil burner from the 1990s to a NBE KEDEL (in Denmark Scotte/Woody) pellet boiler.

One of the forces from NBE is the ability to be retrofitted into nearly all central heating systems, this is one of the pointers of their lead market placeing in Europe (+50000 unit sold). If interested, see these links for some inspirations (facebook site from the NBE production etc)

NBE productions:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/NBE-Production-AS/1448239495465585

The guys behind NBE productions (I have met the guys in person):

A "funny time laps video of an RTB installations from NBE productions made by Marvin/Gavin - cannot remember, but NBE US Marketing director)
 

various video's from Jannik (Director of operation from NBE)
https://www.youtube.com/user/jannich11/videos?shelf_id=0&view=0&sort=dd


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## DBNH22 (Feb 18, 2015)

Danni:

With respect to the payback period, there are obviously a lot of different variables, cost of unit, cost of installation and ancillary materials/costs, costs of pellet fuel as opposed to alternative fuel in local area, size of home, level of air sealing insulation etc etc etc

Based on my experience I would tend to think that the average payback time for someone with an average home 1700- 2500 square foot would be about 6-9 years.

I don't want to quote exact numbers.  I'll let the vendors do that.  However I looked into Harmann, Windhager, Kedel, Frohling and Okofen before buying the Windhager and I can tell you that Harmann is the cheapest but not much cheaper than Windhager and Kedel which are fairly close together.  I believe at the time the Windhager was slightly cheaper than the Kedel.  Then you have the Frohlings and Okofens which are around double what the Kedels and Windhagers are.

In any event I saved a lot more last year than I am saving this year because this year pellet prices have gone up while oil has dropped sharply.  Still saving though.


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## Danni the Dane (Feb 18, 2015)

Dana B said:


> Danni:
> 
> With respect to the payback period, there are obviously a lot of different variables, cost of unit, cost of installation and ancillary materials/costs, costs of pellet fuel as opposed to alternative fuel in local area, size of home, level of air sealing insulation etc etc etc
> 
> ...



For starters, I wrote your payback time is quite good = My opinion is IT IS GOOD - in Denmark the payback on a Austrian State of the Art pellet boiler is about 7-9 years  In my situation I came from a (SH***Y) old oil boiler and I made the RTB Installation myself = ChEaP and therefore short payback time with these two variables combined (old oilboiler + saved installation cost)

But okay, price range in the US and Europe varies - I can see you have a significant better warrenty from "KEDEL" in the US than we have on the same products in Europe (checked/googled it) but also, the Windhager is about double the price in Denmark - ALL Austrian Pellet boilers are EXPENSIVE in Denmark (Like our cars  ). A quick note is, the Europe setup is a bit different regarding hopper system etc. so perhaps this plays a part in system costs

But yes, I am aware the instalation cost varies from house to house, that is why I ask for unit price isolated - this show what cost of unit is and for an respektive house, the installations cost lies within the same area for each type/brand of boiler (expected)

I have a 2590sf house, build in 1966, renovated climatescreen (heavely renovation) but I have an idea of the cost/benefit expectations for a oil/pellet switchover - for Denmark that is 

What is the price for pellets in the US? in Denmark we pay about 1750-2000 Danish Kr for 896 kilograms (about 2 Danish kr / kilo gram = 0,36 USD / kilogram)


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## DBNH22 (Feb 18, 2015)

Danni the Dane said:


> For starters, I wrote your payback time is quite good = My opinion is IT IS GOOD - in Denmark the payback on a Austrian State of the Art pellet boiler is about 7-9 years  In my situation I came from a (SH***Y) old oil boiler and I made the RTB Installation myself = ChEaP and therefore short payback time with these two variables combined (old oilboiler + saved installation cost)
> 
> But okay, price range in the US and Europe varies - I can see you have a significant better warrenty from "KEDEL" in the US than we have on the same products in Europe (checked/googled it) but also, the Windhager is about double the price in Denmark - ALL Austrian Pellet boilers are EXPENSIVE in Denmark (Like our cars  ). A quick note is, the Europe setup is a bit different regarding hopper system etc. so perhaps this plays a part in system costs
> 
> ...




Don't quote me on it exactly but I believe the price on the Windhager Biowin base unit last year was around $8,000.00 US dollars.

Most of the pellets would fall in the price range of $240 - $320 USD per imperial ton/2000 pounds or 907kg.

From what I understand everything is more expensive in Europe though.

This is America though; where we eat our cheap Mcdonalds big macs, buy our cheap Chinese made plastic goods and sit on our obese asses watching vulgar American reality TV shows all night long until we die prematurely of heart disease.


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## Danni the Dane (Feb 18, 2015)

A Windhager Biowin base unit for around 8000 USD is ½ price compared to Danish prices - WTF  !! And the same price of an RTB in Denmark, hmm...!

Pellets is around the same price range and YUP in Denmark pretty much everything is expensive, but surely we have benefits from all the taxes 

"This is America where we eat our cheap Mcdonalds big macs, buy our cheap Chinese made plastic goods and sit on our obese asses watching vulgar American reality TV shows all night long."

Just to make sure, your making a joke, right?! Surely you did not read any of my text in any way possible that way... right?! In my line of work, I meet alot of US guys (Afghanistan, Balkans, Baltic, Germany etc.) and you, as a people, as a nation, has my deepest respect!


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## DBNH22 (Feb 18, 2015)

Danni the Dane said:


> A Windhager Biowin base unit for around 8000 USD is ½ price compared to Danish prices - WTF  !! And the same price of an RTB in Denmark, hmm...!
> 
> Pellets is around the same price range and YUP in Denmark pretty much everything is expensive, but surely we have benefits from all the taxes
> 
> ...



Wow that is quite a price difference.  I'd imagine that the European and American units are the exact same product with the exception of some power/voltage differences.


That was kind of a joke but not completely.  I'm glad to hear that you have respect for this nation and it's people but there are those of us, native Americans, that have less and less respect for this nation and our fellow citizens each new day.  I wasn't responding to anything you'd said, just offering my own opinion on the US.


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## Danni the Dane (Feb 18, 2015)

Dana B said:


> Wow that is quite a price difference.  I'd imagine that the European and American units are the exact same product with the exception of some power/voltage differences.
> 
> 
> That was kind of a joke but not completely.  I'm glad to hear that you have respect for this nation and it's people but there are those of us, native Americans, that have less and less respect for this nation and our fellow citizens each new day.  I wasn't responding to anything you'd said, just offering my own opinion on the US.



In Denmark we, as the only country in Europe, has a government demand of boilers tested for standard EN303-5 Class 5, ALL other European countries has EN303-5 Class 3 - So, A Danish Bio Nerd cannot collect a boiler in another country due to a needed certificate of this EN standard - I guess this is one of the reasons why the Austrian Boilers are more expensive - no other options to get one  And, as I wrote earlier, Austria is lead nation in quality pellet boilers!

Regarding the RTB, then NBE bought another Danish company that was about to close, startede the RTB production at this facility IN DENMARK, to save workplaces in our country - the RTB is 100 % produced in Denmark (sure, components for the production is imported - gearmotors, condensators) but steel production, design, assembly, test etc. - all DANISH... This is infact one of my reasons positivity for the product (sure, do not misunderstand me, the product it self is GREAT!) but the people behind, their intentions is right up my alley as a proud Dane - Danes takes care of each other, and when a Danish company lowers profit for benefit of jobs - I am hooked 

Well, in Denmark we also has alot of problems with citizens, we have people who never had a job, but the tax in Denmark goes to social services to take care of the weak - the problems is, in Denmark som of the weak is in fact just lazy, and this makes it difficult for the true weak to get what they need because they do not have the energy to explain they are not the "lazy ones"!! (my personal opinion)... But every nation has its own issues I guess.

Back on track - sorry, do not want to f***k the thread up with all sorts of off topic text 

Guys, the newbie thanks for a warm welcome on site - have a nice day, the time in Denmark is 21:10 (9pm) and the wife needs attention


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## DBNH22 (Feb 18, 2015)

Danni I'm trying to follow all of the acronyms you're using and I've had to google them.

So correct me if I'm wrong but NBE is a Danish pellet boiler company and the RTB is the ready to burn model that they make?

I see that it comes in 10, 16, 30 and 50kw units.  Are they all the same unit with different settings for different output?  The Windhager come sin a 21kw or 26kw.  It's the same model you just configure a dip switch for the output that you want.  I've always had mine set on 21kw and never had an issue.

What about the Kedel?  I remember hearing something about it being Danish made but then I also remember someone saying something about Czech Republic.

I think Okofen and Frohling are also both Austrian.  Am I correct?  I know that Windhager has a presence in Austria, Germany, and the UK.  Are there some brands that are more dominant in certain European nations?


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## Danni the Dane (Feb 18, 2015)

Dana B said:


> Danni I'm trying to follow all of the acronyms you're using and I've had to google them.
> 
> So correct me if I'm wrong but NBE is a Danish pellet boiler company and the RTB is the ready to burn model that they make?
> 
> ...



Sorry, US/EN is not my native language (I guess it is obvious)

NBE = Danish Company, started by Kim Gregersen and Jannik Hansen
KEDEL = US Brand - in Denmark it is sold as Scotte or Woody, in Czech as OPOP etc.
Black Star boiler = NBE design, produced in Czech
External (big red) and Mini (small black) hopper = NBE design, produced in Czech
External Black Star auger = No idea
Pellet burner = Designed and produced in Denmark, developed in 1999 and advanced since then.
RTB boiler, hopper, auger etc = designed, produced in Denmark (new top line model - altso called Ready to burn)

I am not aware if NBE own OPOP in Czech which produce the Black Star boilers, but I am sure they have interest in the company for sure! but RTB production is all Danish!

Specs...

The Burner:
10kw = own size burner
16kw = settings for 16 and 20kw (24kw as well - more to this, old options, due to slightly different burner tray (option))
30kw = own size burner
50kw = own size burner

The Boiler:
10kw+16kw burner uses the Black Star 1016 boiler (BS1016) - different burner for 10kw and 16kw as I wrote above
20kw option (same burner as 16kw) it uses the Black star 2030 boiler
30kw bigger burner, but still the Black Star 2030 boiler
50kw bigger burner uses the Black Star 4050 boiler

there is also an 40kw option and also MUCH bigger options than 50kw - perhaps not testet/aproved in the US yet.

The RTB boiler:
10 and 16kw is the same boiler, only the burner is replaced
30kw is a bigger boiler

it is the combination with the burner area and boiler ability to use the amount of effect ind the "fire" that gives the different combinations. The "force" of NBE burner/boiler setup is the wide modulation due to the combination of internal and external auger and this, in theory, saves pellets.

NBE is the biggest European branch - meant, it has sold significant most boiler setups around europe. The Austrian brands are more "isolated" due to need of installer and service from installer - the whole initial idea of the Black star series was for DIY people, and the RTB for installer/service like the Austrian brands (well, I installed it myself and regulated it from the Oxygen sensor and ash)

The brands most Bio nerds in my forums talk about is NBE/Blackstar/RTB and MGM (google Slimpel) and som Swedish models (older Tech, but stabel) and the brands you mention - but due to prices of the brands you mention, not many in my forums has these - one of two users only.


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## DBNH22 (Feb 18, 2015)

Danni, if you're interested I created a post on here last year when my Windhager was installed.  I included some pics that show the inside burn chamber, electronics etc etc

I'll find the link for you.  it's an old post.


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## DBNH22 (Feb 18, 2015)

Here is the link to my Windhager install thread


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## Danni the Dane (Feb 18, 2015)

Yes please, it would be very interesting  in Denmark, and now it gets geeky, we invite people to come and look and our boiler setup - this way people can see the differnet brands, its +/- from end user - the user2user experience.. The Danes rides the green wave (haha) but it gives a better insight than the sales manager at the store


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## Danni the Dane (Feb 18, 2015)

Dana B said:


> Here is the link to my Windhager install thread



Got it, and 'nuff said - 'it is one nice boiler! Funny like the RTB shares a similar design (ripoff  well, the RTB is a ripoff, hehe)

is there any online service on it? I can view and control mine from abroad..


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## DBNH22 (Feb 18, 2015)

It seems that there a lot of people on this website that have very good things to say about both Kedel and Windhager but you don't see much on the Frohling and Okofen.  I think that the Frohlings and Okofens are simply out of the price range of the average American middle class person.

I have had Windhager engineers from Austria at my home several time to check on my boiler.  My experience with Windhager and Marc, the American distributor has been very impressive.  They truly stand behind their product.

The only brand I didn't like when I looked into the boilers was the Harmann.  The pb105 is their pellet boiler.  they are traditionally a stove company and the quality of build between the pb105 and the Biowin was like night and day.  I've also heard that the pb105 has had issues with the burn pot bubbling.


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## DBNH22 (Feb 18, 2015)

As far as I know there is no online control option with the Windhager but you'd have to ask Marc to be sure.

In all honesty though how often are you going to remotely access your boiler to change the settings?

With any boiler from any manufacturer you can always tie into an IP based thermostat and change the temp on the fly.  That is the only thing I would see needing to mess with on a daily basis.


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## Danni the Dane (Feb 18, 2015)

Windhager is, and no doubt about this, a high end product - Engineers from Austria in your home for inspection - hearts and minds, thumbs up from me!

If you want to, then you can see the two Bio "geeks" that started NBE and their intentions in this video: 

Well, the online part is infact a big deal for me - NBE has something called Cloud service - a group of software ingeneers from development monitors the online connected boilers and reacts if any problem shows up - corrects it online or offer solutions with service personel on site. I am away from home alot, and often 6-7 month, I like to logon and check everything is okay, but this is more a nice thing, it is the surveillance I like the most.

Windhager has (perhaps had) a side production of their pelletboiler i germany named Veissmann Voglio (Spelling?), but it was the same boiler under another brand and about 30% less price in germany = 50-60% less than in Denmark... At that time I tried to get one of those.... So, I know it is a great boiler you have


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## DBNH22 (Feb 18, 2015)

Danni the Dane said:


> Windhager is, and no doubt about this, a high end product - Engineers from Austria in your home for inspection - hearts and minds, thumbs up from me!
> 
> If you want to, then you can see the two Bio "geeks" that started NBE and their intentions in this video:
> 
> ...





It's nice that a unit can be diagnosed online but I look at it this way:  if the product is well built all around, software, electrical, mechanical etc etc  then there shouldn't be any problems


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## Danni the Dane (Feb 18, 2015)

well true - but to please my OCD and paranoia, it works quite well at this  controlfreak is a work habit, cannot help it 

edit: my parents NBE pellet burner from 2000 has burned 70 tons of pellets with only one electric igniter changed - and that is all in 15 years - guess that is okay build


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## DBNH22 (Feb 19, 2015)

Danni the Dane said:


> well true - but to please my OCD and paranoia, it works quite well at this  controlfreak is a work habit, cannot help it
> 
> edit: my parents NBE pellet burner from 2000 has burned 70 tons of pellets with only one electric igniter changed - and that is all in 15 years - guess that is okay build




By the end of this season, my second with the Windhager, I will have burned about 12 US tons of pellets.  I estimate that I will have saved around $3000 USD over oil in the last two seasons.

So what is the American warranty on the Kedels as opposed to the European warranty?


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## Danni the Dane (Feb 19, 2015)

a sawing of 3000 USD quite good i think 

Kedel, in the states, gives 30 year warrenty on the boiler vessel - in Denmark 24 month warrenty... A bit different I will say  why, I do not know - perhaps to get market share in a advancing market in the states


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## DBNH22 (Feb 19, 2015)

So what is the average daily temp this time of year where you are in Denmark Danni?

Where I am in northeast US it has only gone above 0 C one time in the past 30 days and only for 4 hours.  We have been averaging between -18 C to about -5 C during the day for awhile now.

Last Sunday evening the temp was -19.4 C and when the wind chill was factored in it was actually -36 C.  That was at 10:30 pm when I checked right before going to bed.  I'm sure it got even colder that night.


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## Danni the Dane (Feb 19, 2015)

Hi Dana,

Well this winter, and the last in fact, has not been cold in actual minus degrees, but alot of wind/windchill. A normal Danish Winter can go from -2 in day time to - 15/-18 in the night - we are talking celcius. But the last coulpe of years it is not the snow etc. as much as my time growing up, that cools down the hous, but the storms (nothing compared with your storms  )

But at this time in my area about 0 till +2C in the daytime till -3 till -7 in nighttime


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## DBNH22 (Feb 19, 2015)

Danni, I looked at the stokercloud website and saw that there are actually quite a few in the northeast US where I'm at.  I also noticed that there are three units in New Zealand.  New Zealand!  I didn't know it ever got that cold there.


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## Danni the Dane (Feb 19, 2015)

Yeah I saw that - what's next, Pellet boilers in GUAM? haha  it's the new "black" everybody wants one


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## DBNH22 (Feb 19, 2015)

Danni the Dane said:


> Hi Dana,
> 
> Well this winter, and the last in fact, has not been cold in actual minus degrees, but alot of wind/windchill. A normal Danish Winter can go from -2 in day time to - 15/-18 in the night - we are talking celcius. But the last coulpe of years it is not the snow etc. as much as my time growing up, that cools down the hous, but the storms (nothing compared with your storms  )
> 
> But at this time in my area about 0 till +2C in the daytime till -3 till -7 in nighttime




Yeah we have had an unusually snowy winter this year.  Most places in New England have at least three to four feet of snow on the ground and some of the drifts or areas where the plows have been are over ten feet tall.  Have you ever been to the US, specifically New England?  I've never been to Europe but would love to visit Germany or maybe Norway some day.  My wife has been to Germany and France.  She loved Germany but hated France.


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## Danni the Dane (Feb 19, 2015)

The world is F**KED up the last couple of years I think, but "what's to come," do not think it is getting any better/stable. Danish Winters were somewhat like you descripe years ago, and now I have to rush home from work when the snow hits the ground, just to play with it with my son before it is gone again 

I have never been to the stats (yet) - my wish was to send the wife to the US when we were expecting our son, and then come over myself in the periode before birth  - giving him birth in the US would give him US citizenship, not a bad thing to have, but the wife was not keen on the idea (both I and her has family in the States - me in Florida and her in Arizona)

Germany is a GREAT country, with a great nature and loving people - I ran Berlin Marathon each year, but switched for Hamburg instead, both Germany Marathons - love the country! France, well, I have been stationed for 7 month in a French Camp, and well... Only some of their colony nations soldier talked to me, that was untill the day I was the guy to go to, but just that day I could not remember any other language than danish  they are special, and I understand if she likes Germany better. But I spend 2 weeks in France this sommer with my family, and my best friend and his family - the only European way to come to Disneyland .. I have just returned after 1½ month in Norway with "you guys," and I love Norway, alot like Denmark, just pretty nature and a rich government - haha


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## DBNH22 (Feb 19, 2015)

Florida and Arizona huh?

Never been to Arizona but Florida is not one of my favorite places.  Too flat and hot.  The coasts are definitely the best part of this country though, especially the northeast and northwest.  The middle is just a big, flat boring place, with the exception of Colorado/rockies.

The US is a big place and so unlike Europe in that we are isolated from easy travel to other nations and cultures.  I've never been to Mexico but I have been to Canada.  Canada is a great place but it's friggin cold eh!

Number one on our places we'd like to visit is New Zealand.  We actually thought about emigrating there but I think it would be too expensive.  We're hoping we can at least take a family vacation there when the kids get a little older.


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## Danni the Dane (Feb 19, 2015)

Sorry, not Arizona, her family lives in Nevada, just outside Las Vegas - I jingsed the geography a bit, just a bit 

Florida should be freaking hot and moist in the air.. But it is my mothers kid brother who lives overthere and has for nearly 30 years as director of some branch of a hearing aid / sound isolation somewhat goverment contracted company, but we keep in contact when he visits Denmark.

I do not believe "the grass is more green" in the states, but the citizenship for my son would make his future more flexiable - I always look for ways to optimize everything (educated LEAN manager, hehe). But to make as much paths possible for my son to choose from is one of my goals in life 

In my line of work af Sgt 1Class (my militart rank at the time), it is a bit different than most of my collegues due to I work with finacial controlling, procurement, getting goods in and out of areas where others cannot and all of it in operational invoirements. This line of work have forced me to meet people of every culture, religion, nationality etc, and to make a cooperation work - in alot of different parts of the world - I have been around 

New Zealand, what is the motivation?! I know some old geezer from New Zealand set the world record a couple of times on costums motorbikes in the Nevada desert, but that is about what I know about New Zealand


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## DBNH22 (Feb 19, 2015)

Danni the Dane said:


> New Zealand, what is the motivation?! I know some old geezer from New Zealand set the world record a couple of times on costums motorbikes in the Nevada desert, but that is about what I know about New Zealand



We like the outdoors/natural world and it would be nice to live in a place where you can enjoy that kind of lifestyle 12 months out of the year.  Also from what I've read NZ is one of the least corrupt places in the world.  Between big business and big government and the collusion of the two America is becoming more and more corrupt by the minute.  The government here is encroaching more and more upon the people's freedoms.  Outsiders think life here is so great but in reality at least half the population consists of unthinking, shallow, materialistic, self absorbed, brain dead morons and you have to deal with these people every day in America.


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## Danni the Dane (Feb 19, 2015)

Regarding your perspective on NZ - thumbs up from me - if that is your motivation, then go for it! There is alot of things to consider before making such move, but we only live once - a good friend of mine reminded me of that, not so long ago - it really made my think on my position in life. And about the corruption, in the world we live in today, what does "least corrupt" really mean, sure it is going to benifit the people? I really do not trust our officials, this i common for all nations - they are first off being the shallow, materialistic, self absorbed, brain dead morons if you ask me..

One thing I do not understand about the US - the 1%'ers, or what you call them, the rich f**kers that rule the country - WTF? that is as crazy as the Russian Oligags if you ask me.

Regarding the US, then there is a European saying "The US is the biggest western banana republic" as a symbol of what you mention - I know it is no Utophia overthere, but do not fool youself, Europe is neighter, but this discussion does not fit the internet, but has to be taken over a beer or a good bottle of red wine.


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## Karl_northwind (Feb 19, 2015)

Danni the Dane said:


> Regarding your perspective on NZ - thumbs up from me - if that is your motivation, then go for it! There is alot of things to consider before making such move, but we only live once - a good friend of mine reminded me of that, not so long ago - it really made my think on my position in life. And about the corruption, in the world we live in today, what does "least corrupt" really mean, sure it is going to benifit the people? I really do not trust our officials, this i common for all nations - they are first off being the shallow, materialistic, self absorbed, brain dead morons if you ask me..
> 
> One thing I do not understand about the US - the 1%'ers, or what you call them, the rich f**kers that rule the country - WTF? that is as crazy as the Russian Oligags if you ask me.
> 
> Regarding the US, then there is a European saying "The US is the biggest western banana republic" as a symbol of what you mention - I know it is no Utophia overthere, but do not fool youself, Europe is neighter, but this discussion does not fit the internet, but has to be taken over a beer or a good bottle of red wine.



Sorry to butt in, but I read the thread and had to comment, 
I can't even begin to describe the explaining I had to do when in Europe last fall when congress shut down the Federal government.  The guys in austria (Windhager plant) were completely confused as I had to explain to them what was happening in the US. 
and I'm glad you've had good experiences with Americans abroad.  I'd like to think the more open minded tend to get out and see the world (in uniform or not, and I have a lot of friends who have done both) 
cheers, 
back to your regularly scheduled conversation. 
karl
(BTW I am a windhager dealer and have nothing but good things to say about the equipment, and lots of good about the company, the product and Marc, the importer)


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## BrotherBart (Feb 19, 2015)

Well, this one is far enough off the rails. Take it to PMs folks.


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