# Water heater being installed as we speak... Goodbye oil!



## AddictiveStew (Apr 9, 2013)

Bought myself a Marathon 50 Gallon water heater over the weekend and the plumber is putting her in right now (not to mention severing my DHW coil on the old oil burner).  Can't wait to shut down that old oil monster for the summer!  Pellets + Electric HW FTW.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 9, 2013)

50 Gal !! Thats a big one. Iv found my 30 Gal Electric does the job even with 5-7 people in the house.Lower standing loss with smaller heater. WHen i went to replace it i found the 30 hard to find at HD. Mostly 40s and up. OVERKILL for most homes.


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## AddictiveStew (Apr 9, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> 50 Gal !! Thats a big one. Iv found my 30 Gal Electric does the job even with 5-7 people in the house.Lower standing loss with smaller heater. WHen i went to replace it i found the 30 hard to find at HD. Mostly 40s and up. OVERKILL for most homes.


 
Well I almost went 85... after I did the calculations I believe 50 to be the right size for us (planning on kids in the future).  The Marathon is one of the most energy efficient ones out there, and it has a lifetime warranty (plastic tank vs metal so no anode rod/rusting).


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## moey (Apr 9, 2013)

I installed a 80 (Rheem) a few weeks ago nice not to hear the boiler running.


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## AddictiveStew (Apr 9, 2013)

moey said:


> I installed a 80 (Rheem) a few weeks ago nice not to hear the boiler running.


 
Nothing boils my blood more than hearing the boiler run.


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## Defiant (Apr 9, 2013)

Nice job Stew, any photos?


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## AddictiveStew (Apr 9, 2013)

Defiant said:


> Nice job Stew, any photos?


 
I'm at work right now, but I can certainly take some when I get home if you're interested!


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## john193 (Apr 9, 2013)

How long will it take to get a return by going to electric? It's something I have looked at in the past but my numbers didn't add up.


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## AddictiveStew (Apr 9, 2013)

john193 said:


> How long will it take to get a return by going to electric? It's something I have looked at in the past but my numbers didn't add up.


 
Considering I burned a tank last summer heating my water alone (old boiler, 65% eff), the ROI for me will be fairly quick.  Maybe 6 months to a year?  Just knowing I'm not using oil is enough to make me happy.  I'm doing everything in my power to stop that beast from running.


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## john193 (Apr 9, 2013)

AddictiveStew said:


> Considering I burned a tank last summer heating my water alone (old boiler, 65% eff), the ROI for me will be fairly quick.  Maybe 6 months to a year?  Just knowing I'm not using oil is enough to make me happy.  I'm doing everything in my power to stop that beast from running.


Yes that is a good feeling. I've burned about 100 gallons of oil since Oct, it's pretty much used for hot water. Electric is about 15.5 cents a kW/h here so the numbers aren't in my favor. The local paper was advertising oil at 3.24 here.


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## moey (Apr 9, 2013)

john193 said:


> Yes that is a good feeling. I've burned about 100 gallons of oil since Oct, it's pretty much used for hot water. Electric is about 15.5 cents a kW/h here so the numbers aren't in my favor. The local paper was advertising oil at 3.24 here.


 
Sounds like you have a modern system. The hybrid systems can be had for pretty cheap right now. Most states have a $300 rebate and there is a federal $300 tax credit. Lowes has a GE model for 999 use a 10% off coupon and your getting it for $300ish after your credit/rebate. Cheaper is you have a Discover card probably $250ish. If you did the install yourself the payback could be pretty quick.


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## bdaoust (Apr 9, 2013)

My plumber was telling me that he could install a electric water heater (I believe 40 gal) for $600 installed.  He even said that he could put a value so you can switch over back to oil if you ever wanted. 

Tempting..............


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## AddictiveStew (Apr 9, 2013)

bdaoust said:


> My plumber was telling me that he could install a electric water heater (I believe 40 gal) for $600 installed. He even said that he could put a value so you can switch over back to oil if you ever wanted.
> 
> Tempting..............


 
Thought about doing that, but then decided not to.  Plan on replacing my furnace in the near future with something more efficient.  I'll save about $2k buying one without domestic hw coil.


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## ironpony (Apr 9, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> 50 Gal !! Thats a big one. Iv found my 30 Gal Electric does the job even with 5-7 people in the house.Lower standing loss with smaller heater. WHen i went to replace it i found the 30 hard to find at HD. Mostly 40s and up. OVERKILL for most homes.


 


OVERKILL.............. says the guy with 4 stoves and a boiler....................................


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## john193 (Apr 9, 2013)

ironpony said:


> OVERKILL.............. says the guy with 4 stoves and a boiler....................................


I don't think they are all in one location...

Not that I care either way, just an observation.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 9, 2013)

ironpony said:


> OVERKILL.............. says the guy with 4 stoves and a boiler....................................


They are indeed in 4 different locations. Theres is one instance where i would need a larger WH ,THat is if you have a jacuzzi bathtub. One on my rentals has one and a gas 40 Gal WH. The tub does drain the whole 40 gallon heater on the first fill. At home though iv had the 30 Gal electric for about 20 years,with any where from 5 to 7 people staying here at a time and only turned up about half way to boot. I guess its possible to run out if your in the shower long enough but i never have.


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## moey (Apr 9, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> They are indeed in 4 different locations. Theres is one instance where i would need a larger WH ,THat is if you have a jacuzzi bathtub. One on my rentals has one and a gas 40 Gal WH. The tub does drain the whole 40 gallon heater on the first fill. At home though iv had the 30 Gal electric for about 20 years,with any where from 5 to 7 people staying here at a time and only turned up about half way to boot. I guess its possible to run out if your in the shower long enough but i never have.


 
That would never fly in our house, dishwasher bath and shower all going at the same time in the evening or back to back. My only experience with a 40 gallon electric in a rental was getting a cold shower constantly if the bath tub was just used no thanks. New electric tanks have very high EF.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 9, 2013)

moey said:


> That would never fly in our house, dishwasher bath and shower all going at the same time in the evening or back to back. My only experience with a 40 gallon electric in a rental was getting a cold shower constantly if the bath tub was just used no thanks. New electric tanks have very high EF.


Exactly! A bathtub will use many times more water than a shower. Here we all use showers maybe 10 Gal hot water use at a time. Lots of 1 and 2 person households out there so one size dont fit all.


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## 343amc (Apr 9, 2013)

I 'sprung' for a Geospring heat pump water heater a couple months back when my old Richmond started to leak. The past couple electric bills have been about $20/month less than normal. Works out well as its on the same side of the basement as the pellet furnace. 

Congrats on helping keep the oil truck parked.


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## moey (Apr 9, 2013)

343amc said:


> I 'sprung' for a Geospring heat pump water heater a couple months back when my old Richmond started to leak. The past couple electric bills have been about $20/month less than normal. Works out well as its on the same side of the basement as the pellet furnace.
> 
> Congrats on helping keep the oil truck parked.


 
Do you run it on "heat pump" only or the mix ( not the correct name ) setting?

I'm thinking of getting one right now I could get one at Lowe's for $250 after rebates etc. Problem is I just installed a new electric hot water tank a month ago haven't even got my first bill for it. Not sure I can convince my wife to do the hot water tank exercise again to get it into the basement.


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## iceguy4 (Apr 9, 2013)

If you have hard water you need to drain tank regularly. calcium will bulld up in the bottom to the point of covering the bottom electrode...funny thing is the shape of the calcium...exact shape of the electrode in reverse...anyone else see this? also, I have an electric 40 gallon (just wife and I ) ...all i have to do is turn the breaker on and flip a few ball valves...we cant tell the difference in our electric bill. Last year I still used it in the winter  OIL is way too much


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## DexterDay (Apr 9, 2013)

moey said:


> That would never fly in our house, dishwasher bath and shower all going at the same time in the evening or back to back. My only experience with a 40 gallon electric in a rental was getting a cold shower constantly if the bath tub was just used no thanks. New electric tanks have very high EF.



Same here.. Washer, Dishwasher, wife with hair to her @!$, 2 kids and myself. My 50 gal doesn't get it done. And that's with my 2 minute quick shower. Prob gonna step up to a 75-80 myself. 



AddictiveStew said:


> Bought myself a Marathon 50 Gallon water heater over the weekend and the plumber is putting her in right now (not to mention severing my DHW coil on the old oil burner).  Can't wait to shut down that old oil monster for the summer!  Pellets + Electric HW FTW.



Congrats.... We don't use oil, but have LP instead. The only LP item left, is the stove we cook on. And I believe we will be getting an electric model. Even though I love fire and hate how uneven electric stoves are!?! We have gone 3.5 yrs in the same 500 gal tank and are under 40% now.... So we went from 3-4 tanks a yr, to 1 tank every 4-5 yrs, or so  Love it


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## briansol (Apr 9, 2013)

Are you planning to install one of those circulatory things to keep the water moving every few hours?

i'm seriously considering doing this too.  I burn wayyyy too much oil in the summer months..  winter too.


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## AddictiveStew (Apr 9, 2013)

briansol said:


> Are you planning to install one of those circulatory things to keep the water moving every few hours?
> 
> i'm seriously considering doing this too. I burn wayyyy too much oil in the summer months.. winter too.


 
Nope. Probably just set a reminder in my phone to turn the furnace on once a month and let her run for a little. I will set my Nest to give the boiler an exercise over the winter though. And a pic was requested, so here it is! Don't mind the horsehair plaster.


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## moey (Apr 9, 2013)

DexterDay said:


> Same here.. Washer, Dishwasher, wife with hair to her @!$, 2 kids and myself. My 50 gal doesn't get it done. And that's with my 2 minute quick shower. Prob gonna step up to a 75-80 myself.


 
You could always buy one of the hybrid hot water heaters and use your existing tank as a booster tank. Heres a article about it:

http://nwwaterheaters.com/blog/feat...anks-airgenerate-airtap-hybrid-water-heaters/


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## AddictiveStew (Apr 9, 2013)

Still can't figure out why my portrait photos post sideways sometimes... sorry all!


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## DexterDay (Apr 9, 2013)

AddictiveStew said:


> Still can't figure out why my portrait photos post sideways sometimes... sorry all!



Posting from iPhone? 

The phone was meant to take pics sideways? Put the button to the right and take a sideways pic? The phone will post straight.


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## AddictiveStew (Apr 9, 2013)

DexterDay said:


> Posting from iPhone?
> 
> The phone was meant to take pics sideways? Put the button to the right and take a sideways pic? The phone will post straight.


 
It was taken with an iPhone, but I uploaded via my mac.  eh, you get the idea at least.


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## DexterDay (Apr 9, 2013)

Yeah. Take pics with button on right


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## Pellet-King (Apr 10, 2013)

post a closeup pick of your yellow sticker please on the mararthon, my 50 gallon heater was installed 2008, came with my house when i bought it, it says something like $454 a yr energy cost, now enjoy $200 a month electric bill's
post a closeup pick of your yellow sticker please


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## Pellet-King (Apr 10, 2013)

I've not run my furnace for sometimes a year whih no ill effect's, usually in the fall insted of wasting pellets over a chilly night, i'm at 3/8 barrel for 2-3 yr's now


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 10, 2013)

DexterDay said:


> Same here.. Washer, Dishwasher, wife with hair to her @!$, 2 kids and myself. My 50 gal doesn't get it done. And that's with my 2 minute quick shower. Prob gonna step up to a 75-80 myself.
> t


Did you try turning it up? THey do have temp adjustments on them.  I run my 30 gal about half way up(5 of us) ,but bump it up higher if we have company (7 or more).Been here 25 years and went through about 3 HW heaters but never had a need to go bigger.


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## maple1 (Apr 10, 2013)

I put in a new 80 gallon electric tank last fall, and decommisioned my oil burner.

Family of 5. We used to use around 150 gallons of oil for DHW in the non-heating seasons. I'm heating the new tank mostly with my wood boiler now, but before that got all up & running, the electric bill went up about $30/month with the new hot water tank. The new tank was less than $400. Getting off the oil was a no-brainer. If I was in an area with good rebating etc. on heat pump water heaters, I'd have one of those real quick.


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## 343amc (Apr 10, 2013)

moey said:


> Do you run it on "heat pump" only or the mix ( not the correct name ) setting?
> 
> I'm thinking of getting one right now I could get one at Lowe's for $250 after rebates etc. Problem is I just installed a new electric hot water tank a month ago haven't even got my first bill for it. Not sure I can convince my wife to do the hot water tank exercise again to get it into the basement.


 
I run it in "hybrid" mode which uses the heat pump exclusively unless there is a high demand.  With only three of us in the house, I don't think we've ever run off the heating elements except for the initial fill.  I'm hoping it will also reduce the need for a dehumidifier in the summer, which will help save a few more dollars on the electric bill.  

So far I'm happy with it.  If I didn't have the pellet furnace down there it might not work out as well.  My basement used to drop down into the mid 50's when I ran the pellet and wood inserts upstairs.  Now it stays in the mid 60s.


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## AddictiveStew (Apr 10, 2013)

Pellet-King said:


> post a closeup pick of your yellow sticker please on the mararthon, my 50 gallon heater was installed 2008, came with my house when i bought it, it says something like $454 a yr energy cost, now enjoy $200 a month electric bill's
> post a closeup pick of your yellow sticker please


 
$497/year


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## RCCARPS (Apr 10, 2013)

Just installed a 40 gallon direct-vent propane water heater to the tune of $1100 with misc parts .    Turns out when you need one in a rush you pay the price.   I am just fortunate lowes had one in sock.   Old one was a 75 gallon that had the bottom blow out of it mid-day.   Set the house alarm off and I came home to the police clearing my house room by room with guns drawn.... Fun.

Only 2 of us in the house so the 40 gallon will be more than enough.   Plus a direct vent propane 75 gallon would have cost me at least $1500-2000.

Would have loved to switch to an electric.  But with a finished basement with the tank and electric panel on opposite sides that was not possible.


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## BrotherBart (Apr 10, 2013)

Moving this one to the DIY room folks. Good info for all, not just pellet burners.


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## woodgeek (Apr 10, 2013)

Way to go....I put in a 80 gal HPWH a year ago, and had the oil boiler scrapped the next week.  80 gal has been fine....two daughters and a wife that love hot water.


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## jharkin (Apr 10, 2013)

10 gal per shower....  Thats what, 3-4 minute showers?  How do you guys manage it Seasoned.....

We must take pretty long showers as we ofter run out after 2 back to back on our 40 gal indirect.  Never could figure out why it cant recover fast enough heating off the 140k boiler either...


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## moey (Apr 10, 2013)

jharkin said:


> 10 gal per shower.... Thats what, 3-4 minute showers? How do you guys manage it Seasoned.....
> 
> We must take pretty long showers as we ofter run out after 2 back to back on our 40 gal indirect. Never could figure out why it cant recover fast enough heating off the 140k boiler either...


 
I think I could run my water continuously with my 40 gallon indirect and not run out. The boiler was 75k. What temp is your boiler running at? Do you have hard water maybe your getting really bad heat transfer.


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## jharkin (Apr 10, 2013)

moey said:


> I think I could run my water continuously with my 40 gallon indirect and not run out. The boiler was 75k. What temp is your boiler running at? Do you have hard water maybe your getting really bad heat transfer.


 
Its a steam boiler so it doesn't stay hot on standby. It has to cold start whenever the indirect calls for heat which probably creates some lag, though with 140k input  (or maybe its 120 i have to double check) it comes up to temp fast. the indirect is coupled to a high limit aquastat on the boiler that cuts the burner off at 180 on an DHW cycle.

I think we just take really long showers


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## woodgeek (Apr 10, 2013)

jharkin said:


> 10 gal per shower.... Thats what, 3-4 minute showers? How do you guys manage it Seasoned.....
> 
> We must take pretty long showers as we ofter run out after 2 back to back on our 40 gal indirect. Never could figure out why it cant recover fast enough heating off the 140k boiler either...


 
tempering valve?


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## briansol (Apr 10, 2013)

What's a good ratio of size of heater to use?

I hate to admit it, but i'm very wasteful in the shower.  I stand there for 10 min a morning half spaced out. lol  my roommate shaves his head every morning in the shower.  my gf, well... shes a girl. lol   so each of us end up about 20 min of hot water each.  We go in succession 1-2-3 in the morning, and with the boiler its not a problem.   I go last... so I want to make sure if I do this, I still have a hot shower.


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## Highbeam (Apr 10, 2013)

20 minutes is more standard for real people and if you start that clock when you first open the faucet then I believe that very few regular people take 10 gallon showers. So 20 minutes with a low flow 2gpm shower head is 40 gallons. But wait, shower water is not straight 120 degree hot water, it is mixed with cold 55 degree water to get you from 120 down to 100 degrees or so. This means that your 40 gallon tank can make way more than 40 gallons of shower water and while you are in the shower, the water heater is trying to recover.

A 50 gallon HWT is very standard for 3 bedroom homes. Anything smaller might actually hurt the home's resale value. There is no real downside to a large water heater, the element sizes are the same. You're just storing more heated water.

The upside is a smaller footprint.

Good job on the marathon, bad job on the install. I can overlook the concrete blocks but the exposed romex cable hanging there is not per code.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 10, 2013)

jharkin said:


> 10 gal per shower.... Thats what, 3-4 minute showers? How do you guys manage it Seasoned.....
> We must take pretty long showers as we ofter run out after 2 back to back on our 40 gal indirect. Never could figure out why it cant recover fast enough heating off the 140k boiler either...


Im not using all hot. Have the shower valve at about half/half . 10 Gal With a 1.2 Gal SH would get you about 10-15 Min. Wife showers much longer about 30 MIn so she goes through 20 Gal+.Claims she never runs out. Also I do have a tempering valve that mixes some cold so you dont get scalded. At times when we have more people in the house i simply turn up the temp further to make the water hotter. Hence the mixing valve mixes MORE cold in you actually use less hot water from the WH. Both the dishwasher and our Washing machine have their own built in WH so they always work at the correct temp. WIfe and i almost never take back to back showers at least when were not sharing a shower.


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## mrjohneel (Apr 10, 2013)

I'm definitely going to get an electric water heater this Spring/Summer to end my dependence on oil. My pellet stove has saved me over $1000/yr so far.  I have a 50-gallon electric water heater in my family's summer house on the Cape and have never run out of hot water with long outside showers, dinner guests, etc. Also, next week I am having a full-blown energy audit -- infrared imaging of the walls, smoke test with a fan on the front door etc. I'm hoping I can fix myself whatever it reveals, saving some money. This is the year for me to finally get as energy efficient as I can. (Wish me luck.)


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 10, 2013)

briansol said:


> . We go in succession 1-2-3 in the morning, and with the boiler its not a problem. I go last... so I want to make sure if I do this, I still have a hot shower.


 Anyone in this situation will need a large WH. Only other solution would be a smaller one run at high temp with a tempering valve.


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## AddictiveStew (Apr 11, 2013)

Highbeam said:


> 20 minutes is more standard for real people and if you start that clock when you first open the faucet then I believe that very few regular people take 10 gallon showers. So 20 minutes with a low flow 2gpm shower head is 40 gallons. But wait, shower water is not straight 120 degree hot water, it is mixed with cold 55 degree water to get you from 120 down to 100 degrees or so. This means that your 40 gallon tank can make way more than 40 gallons of shower water and while you are in the shower, the water heater is trying to recover.
> 
> A 50 gallon HWT is very standard for 3 bedroom homes. Anything smaller might actually hurt the home's resale value. There is no real downside to a large water heater, the element sizes are the same. You're just storing more heated water.
> 
> ...


 
What can I do to make it up to code?


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## jharkin (Apr 11, 2013)

It needs to be run in conduit, at least up to the ceiling where it can be properly supported.


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## moey (Apr 11, 2013)

AddictiveStew said:


> What can I do to make it up to code?


 
The electrical wire should be in conduit from the heater to junction box on the wall or above. However there is debate as to whether its required usually the town inspector has the last say, Id be willing to bet they will say it should be in conduit. To bore you with details NEC code says not to put NM wire in a raceway which conduit qualifies but its usually expected for it to be in conduit going to hot water heater. Can't win...


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## woodgeek (Apr 11, 2013)

I ran romex to a junction box on the wall nest to the unit, and ran an 'armored cable' hanging from the box to the unit. (conduit is not required in a garage in my area) Had to buy 25' of the right armored cable to use 4'. Gave the rest away. My unit specified solid core wire, which ruled out other options like 'appliance whips'. Also, some areas want a cutoff switch next to the unit. In my case, if the unit is in a line of sight of the breaker box, a switch in not required.


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## Highbeam (Apr 11, 2013)

moey said:


> To bore you with details NEC code says not to put NM wire in a raceway which conduit qualifies


 
Sorry Moey, this is absolutely wrong. You are spreading bad info here. Romex (NM) may be in conduit so long as you don't exceed the fill limits and so long as the conduit is not in a wet location. If you don't know code, then don't quote code.


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## Lake Girl (Apr 11, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Exactly! A bathtub will use many times more water than a shower. Here we all use showers maybe 10 Gal hot water use at a time. Lots of 1 and 2 person households out there so one size dont fit all.


 
No teenage girls in your house  That changes the water use factor for a shower....


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 11, 2013)

Lake Girl said:


> No teenage girls in your house That changes the water use factor for a shower....


Actually i do have a 16 YR old daughter who does like to take hour long showers. So the smaller heater provides another function which is a self limiting conservation feature. After about 30-40 minutes or so she is "encouraged to wrap it up" by the cooler water. I consider this feature an added benefit of a smaller WH rather than a limitation.


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## Highbeam (Apr 11, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Actually i do have a 16 YR old daughter who does like to take hour long showers. So the smaller heater provides another function which is a self limiting conservation feature. After about 30-40 minutes or so she is "encouraged to wrap it up" by the cooler water. I consider this feature an added benefit of a smaller WH rather than a limitation.


 
Yet another reason I don't like tankless heaters. 2gpm shower head would suck up a 30 gallon tank quickly. maybe 20-30 minutes? I did some checking and the marathon 30 gallon tank has the same energy factor as the 50 gallon tank. Also, the 30 gallon unit is available with all of the same wattage elements as the bigger tanks so recovery time is less.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 11, 2013)

Highbeam said:


> Yet another reason I don't like tankless heaters. 2gpm shower head would suck up a 30 gallon tank quickly. maybe 20-30 minutes? I did some checking and the marathon 30 gallon tank has the same energy factor as the 50 gallon tank. Also, the 30 gallon unit is available with all of the same wattage elements as the bigger tanks so recovery time is less.


I never had a tankless heater but i was  under the impression that they provide an unlimited supply of hot water. Just looked at one from HD $229 and its 60 Amps Draw. Thats a lot of juice.


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## Highbeam (Apr 11, 2013)

I wasn't very clear but I'm with you Seasoned Oak, the effect of a small heated water tank running cold on the person that is overshowering is a good thing. The unlimited supply of a tankless would not provide this effect and would lead to rampant overshowering. 60 amps is a small one, some use more than one 60 amp breaker.


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## briansol (Apr 11, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I never had a tankless heater but i was under the impression that they provide an unlimited supply of hot water. Just looked at one from HD $229 and its 60 Amps Draw. Thats a lot of juice.


yup.
but, it doesn't run ALL the time.  it only runs when the water is on.  so, is 30 min of 60 amps draw equal to 5 amps??(no idea what a reg heater uses) every 15 min for 5 min? or whatever it turns out to use over the course of the day.
i'd like to see the match behind this with real numbers if any one has done it.


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## jharkin (Apr 11, 2013)

briansol said:


> yup.
> but, it doesn't run ALL the time. it only runs when the water is on. so, is 30 min of 60 amps draw equal to 5 amps??(no idea what a reg heater uses) every 15 min for 5 min? or whatever it turns out to use over the course of the day.
> i'd like to see the match behind this with real numbers if any one has done it.


 
Theoretically when comparing electric to electric, the tankkless is more efficient - both have 100% efficiency transferring heat from the heating coil to the water, but in the tankless there is virtually no standing mass of hot water to give up standby losses.
Highbeams point is just that it encourages you to use more since it never ever runs out.


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## maple1 (Apr 11, 2013)

briansol said:


> yup.
> but, it doesn't run ALL the time. it only runs when the water is on. so, is 30 min of 60 amps draw equal to 5 amps??(no idea what a reg heater uses) every 15 min for 5 min? or whatever it turns out to use over the course of the day.
> i'd like to see the match behind this with real numbers if any one has done it.


 
My 80 gallon tank uses about $30 of electricity per month @ around $0.16/kwh. Keeping 5 of us (3 of them teenagers) in hot water. Rough figures - if that helps anybody.


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## briansol (Apr 11, 2013)

Do you ever run out of that 80 gal tank?


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## moey (Apr 11, 2013)

jharkin said:


> Theoretically when comparing electric to electric, the tankkless is more efficient - both have 100% efficiency transferring heat from the heating coil to the water, but in the tankless there is virtually no standing mass of hot water to give up standby losses.
> Highbeams point is just that it encourages you to use more since it never ever runs out.


 
The big benefit comes when you switch from a gas hot water tank to a gas tankless. The gas hot water tanks have a low EF whereas the gas tankless have a much higher EF. Lots of standby loss going out the chimney. Going from a electric hot water tank to electric tankless would not see as big a change in cost.


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## drizler (Apr 11, 2013)

My old Weil Mclean super cell started leaking and it was a no brainer.   Even under the lifetime warranty it wasn't worth it.   Went to Lowes got a cheap State 40 gallon and a coil of number 10 wire and a breaker.    Problem solved .    40 gallon is more than enough and this one is mounted upstairs in a nice warm closet blanketed.with full shut offs.   I think the works cost me 450 in 2011.    I was burning 5 to 6 gallons of dino juice (turning the boiler off) just for hot water a week.    Now it's about 25 a month .    If I want to fill up the 50 gallon whirlpool tub I just crank up the settings max then dial it down after.


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## velvetfoot (Apr 11, 2013)

It's so quiet too.  It would be nice to heat the whole place with resistance heat-so quiet.


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## semipro (Apr 11, 2013)

iceguy4 said:


> If you have hard water you need to drain tank regularly. calcium will bulld up in the bottom to the point of covering the bottom electrode...funny thing is the shape of the calcium...exact shape of the electrode in reverse...anyone else see this?


Oh yeah.  Way too much.  What a pain and it makes them noisy too.
Our electric resistance waters heaters are basically acting like water softeners.  I've had to clean the tanks and install new lower heating elements numerous times now.


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## raybonz (Apr 11, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> They are indeed in 4 different locations. Theres is one instance where i would need a larger WH ,THat is if you have a jacuzzi bathtub. One on my rentals has one and a gas 40 Gal WH. The tub does drain the whole 40 gallon heater on the first fill. At home though iv had the 30 Gal electric for about 20 years,with any where from 5 to 7 people staying here at a time and only turned up about half way to boot. I guess its possible to run out if your in the shower long enough but i never have.


I'll send my 16 YO daughter there for a shower and you'll change your mind lol..

Ray


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## BrotherBart (Apr 11, 2013)

I can't figure out why anybody would have anything but an electric water heater. I have lived in two houses with gas heaters and they were both a pain in the butt. Fire a boiler just to heat domestic hot water? No way.


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## iceguy4 (Apr 11, 2013)

semipro said:


> Oh yeah. Way too much. What a pain and it makes them noisy too.
> Our electric resistance waters heaters are basically acting like water softeners. I've had to clean the tanks and install new lower heating elements numerous times now.


 ...   Yes, the net affect is soft water.  the build up is what takes out the lower element too.  Be pro active...clean it first before it builds up...speaking of that I should do mine. As of now I use a zoned HW maker with pellet boiler (last year although I had HW maker, I didn't use it during the winter due to high oil costs) but will switch to electric as soon as heating season is over.  A side note...although my oil boiler is cold start, it is kept warm (hot)  during the heating season...I have no problem shuting it down all summer season...Its fairly new and if it leaks, I'll address that if it happens...lots of slow leak fixers out there...


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## iceguy4 (Apr 11, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> I can't figure out why anybody would have anything but an electric water heater. I have lived in two houses with gas heaters and they were both a pain in the butt. Fire a boiler just to heat domestic hot water? No way.


  I  agree to a point  BB.  like I said , I chose electric over a high efficiency zoned HW maker during the winter ...when I was dependent on oil.   now I switch away from electric(only during heating season) with my pelletboiler.  sometimes it fires just for HW because no other zone is needing heat...I can live with that.   soon I will be back to electric...


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## iceguy4 (Apr 11, 2013)

AddictiveStew said:


> Still can't figure out why my portrait photos post sideways sometimes... sorry all!


   I think its because I'm laying on the couch sometimes while reviewing posts...just a thought


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## maple1 (Apr 11, 2013)

briansol said:


> Do you ever run out of that 80 gal tank?


 
Haven't yet. Now that I'm heating it with the wood boiler, I've got the thermostats turned back to around 110 to act more as backup. I've let the wood side cool off a few times to almost that with still enough hot water. Before I got the wood connection up & running, I had the thermostats set to around between 115 & 120 - that was still good, didn't run out on just the electric elements alone. Electric has pretty good quick recovery times - the main reason I went with this big a tank is for working with the boiler. First to have lots of reserve for when I'm heating it with wood & there are spells when I get lazy with the firebuilding, plus it heats with a sidearm & mainly convection so not very good recovery. It gets hot enough in the times of no useage (during the night, or when nobody is home all day), and keeps it there well enough that it'll coast until it gets heated up again by wood. I have plans to add more insulation around it, just haven't gotten around to it yet. If I wasn't using the boiler to heat it, I likely would have gone with a 40 or maybe a 60. Almost ruined myself getting the 80 into place - sucker was heavy.


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## jharkin (Apr 11, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> I can't figure out why anybody would have anything but an electric water heater. I have lived in two houses with gas heaters and they were both a pain in the butt. Fire a boiler just to heat domestic hot water? No way.


 
If its a gas boiler on cold start heading an indirect tank its damn cheap, thats why.  My summer gas bills are about $20 a month.


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## iceguy4 (Apr 11, 2013)

jharkin said:


> If its a gas boiler on cold start heading an indirect tank its damn cheap, thats why. My summer gas bills are about $20 a month.


 

Its like taking the long way to work...just because your car gets a high MPG..  the whole mass of the boiler has to be heated plus any manifolds...ect to heat the HW... Just saying.... $20 bucks is cheap though.. I guess spending any money to cut that down would fall under the catagory of "having more dollars then sense...cents"


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 12, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> I can't figure out why anybody would have anything but an electric water heater. I have lived in two houses with gas heaters and they were both a pain in the butt. Fire a boiler just to heat domestic hot water? No way.


A dedicated gas hot water heater is a little different than a gas boiler with a hot water coil. More efficient and less standing loss than a boiler.


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## mithesaint (Apr 17, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> I can't figure out why anybody would have anything but an electric water heater. I have lived in two houses with gas heaters and they were both a pain in the butt. Fire a boiler just to heat domestic hot water? No way.


 
Should I switch over to a electric when I replace mine?  I currently have a 16 year old propane WH.  Ticking time bomb.  It's gonna give up on Xmas day or something stupidly expensive like that.  My WH is in a cold basement, so I'm pretty sure the heat pump water heater doesn't make much sense, but I'm still up in the air about replacing the propane unit or switching to electric?  I'm paying about $0.13 Kwh for electric and around $2.00/gallon of propane.


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## moey (Apr 18, 2013)

mithesaint said:


> Should I switch over to a electric when I replace mine? I currently have a 16 year old propane WH. Ticking time bomb. It's gonna give up on Xmas day or something stupidly expensive like that. My WH is in a cold basement, so I'm pretty sure the heat pump water heater doesn't make much sense, but I'm still up in the air about replacing the propane unit or switching to electric? I'm paying about $0.13 Kwh for electric and around $2.00/gallon of propane.


 
$2.00 is your current rate if you needed propane today? If so propane is slightly more economical. Propane hot water heaters ( tank type ) have a .65 EF electric is about .92 EF.

Heres a spreadsheet to plug some numbers in:

www.eia.gov/neic/experts/*heatcalc*.*xls*

make sure you put in the correct EF for electric and propane. In your case propane is about 15% cheaper at that rate. I doubt your current system is at a .65 EF I suspect its much lower.


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## Highbeam (Apr 18, 2013)

Here's a good one too.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/fuel_cost_comparison_calculator/

Shows the same results that the propane is currently slightly cheaper to run but there's more to it. The waste heat from an electric tank heater will enter the room where it warms the room and the home above. With LP that waste heat goes up the chimney.

Are your fuel costs all inclusive? The costs include all delivery and taxes. If by eliminating the LP tank you can eliminate LP completely then you save messing with that bill.

The price of LP is volatile and generally tracks heating oil and not natural gas. As such, it is going to go up over time.

I would install a marathon electric tank heater and be done with it. No worries about venting carbon monoxide, LP price fluctuations, running out of LP, etc.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 18, 2013)

Electric HW is very cheap .. My Electric bill barely budges when i switch over to Electric hot water in the summer when i shut my boiler down. I user a 30 Gal Electric water heater for 5 people household.


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## moey (Apr 18, 2013)

mithesaint said:


> Should I switch over to a electric when I replace mine? I currently have a 16 year old propane WH. Ticking time bomb. It's gonna give up on Xmas day or something stupidly expensive like that. My WH is in a cold basement, so I'm pretty sure the heat pump water heater doesn't make much sense, but I'm still up in the air about replacing the propane unit or switching to electric? I'm paying about $0.13 Kwh for electric and around $2.00/gallon of propane.


 
The GE GeoSpring hot water heater ( air source heat pump ) is $999 at lowes, if your state has a rebate many do you could get it for $299 ( + tax ) at lowes with a 10% off coupon more if you order it online getting cashback.  Thats cheaper then some of the electric models. In the summer it would work quite well for a couple months it may just operate as pure electric if your basement is in fact that cold in the winter.


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## semipro (Apr 18, 2013)

moey said:


> The GE GeoSpring hot water heater ( air source heat pump ) is $999 at lowes, if your state has a rebate many do you could get it for $299 ( + tax ) at lowes with a 10% off coupon more if you order it online getting cashback. Thats cheaper then some of the electric models. In the summer it would work quite well for a couple months it may just operate as pure electric if your basement is in fact that cold in the winter.


That 's a heck of a deal especially since the unit can operate purely in electrical resistance mode if needed (basically like a standard electric water heater).


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## woodgeek (Apr 18, 2013)

moey said:


> The GE GeoSpring hot water heater ( air source heat pump ) is $999 at lowes, if your state has a rebate many do you could get it for $299 ( + tax ) at lowes with a 10% off coupon more if you order it online getting cashback. Thats cheaper then some of the electric models. In the summer it would work quite well for a couple months it may just operate as pure electric if your basement is in fact that cold in the winter.


 
I got $300 or 10% federal tax credit last year on a HPWH....don't know about this year...


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## raybonz (Apr 18, 2013)

You wouldn't


Seasoned Oak said:


> Electric HW is very cheap .. My Electric bill barely budges when i switch over to Electric hot water in the summer when i shut my boiler down. I user a 30 Gal Electric water heater for 5 people household.


 You wouldn't say your electric bill was cheap if you lived here lol..

Ray


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 18, 2013)

raybonz said:


> You wouldn't
> 
> You wouldn't say your electric bill was cheap if you lived here lol..
> 
> Ray


I pay about .12 a KW with all the fees and customer charge ect. But when i kick on the  WH in the spring my bill just goes up a few bucks. Not a lot for 5 people. 3000 SF house 2 full sized Ref ,1 Deep freeze 5 computers ,2 TVs. Washer & Dryer going non stop.   Avg bill is about $130


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## mithesaint (Apr 18, 2013)

moey said:


> The GE GeoSpring hot water heater ( air source heat pump ) is $999 at lowes, if your state has a rebate many do you could get it for $299 ( + tax ) at lowes with a 10% off coupon more if you order it online getting cashback. Thats cheaper then some of the electric models. In the summer it would work quite well for a couple months it may just operate as pure electric if your basement is in fact that cold in the winter.


 
I don't have those rebates here.  Best I can do is $300 off the regular price, which would take it down to $699.  I think the 10% coupons are gone, although I can get another 5% off with my Lowes card.  However, I can get a 50 gallon regular electric for $269, so it would take a loooong time for the heat pump to pay itself off, assuming the heat pump doesn't break at some point.  I hate unnecessarily complex things.  

I'm leaning towards an regular electric tank, mostly to be one more step removed from propane.  Still have a propane furnace, but that sits mostly unused thanks to the pellet stove.  Thanks for the advice.


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## woodgeek (Apr 19, 2013)

mithesaint said:


> I don't have those rebates here. Best I can do is $300 off the regular price, which would take it down to $699. I think the 10% coupons are gone, although I can get another 5% off with my Lowes card. However, I can get a 50 gallon regular electric for $269, so it would take a loooong time for the heat pump to pay itself off, assuming the heat pump doesn't break at some point. I hate unnecessarily complex things.
> 
> I'm leaning towards an regular electric tank, mostly to be one more step removed from propane. Still have a propane furnace, but that sits mostly unused thanks to the pellet stove. Thanks for the advice.


 
I'd figure the HPWH would save you at least 40% of your DHW bill, prob ~$200/yr for a family.  Payback in 2.5 years is not so long, esp if there is a 10 yr warranty. And it is less complex than your refrigerator. 

If you're a saintly bachelor, than rock on with the conventional WH.


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## maple1 (Apr 19, 2013)

If you use or are planning to use a dehumidifier, or A/C, you should consider in your evaluations that a HPWH also serves those functions as well (although limited, relatively speaking).


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