# Electrical Usage Puzzle in Gardner, MA



## Potluck_Crew (Jan 30, 2022)

We need some creative minds. New owners of old home since July. We have Solar System that generates between 350 to 600 per month. We are on net metering through National Grid. 

Our electrical/heating profile
Solar Panels Size: 5.04 kWdc, Monitoring Site: https://www.solrenview.com/SolrenView/mainFr.php?siteId=522
5 mini splits 15 years old
Appliances are mostly 10 years or older, so not as efficient. 
Heat: Harman Accentra insert from 2008-we've tested it for electrical draw-pretty much as expected.
Oil Burner that runs both radiation steam heat and radiant heat. Both on programmable thermostats. 

Sounds totally awesome right??
Things were moving along great in July, Aug, Sept, Oct .Total KWh usage of 10 to 50 per month(with the Net Metering). This translated to monthly bills of under $25. 

Then in Nov/Dec...everything changed and it was huge. Our bill for Nov (which didn't arrive until Dec 20) showed 930 Kwh usage(Net). Then the next bill arrived with a 1500 Kwh(Net)  usage. 

We IMMEDIATELY shut down the mini splits, which we were already using sparingly, relying mostly on Pellet stove and some oil based heat. 

Fast forward till late January, next bill showed 1000 Kwh usage. 

We asked National Grid to come investigate if the net meter was working correctly. No finding.
	

		
			
		

		
	







We had a virtual Home Energy assessment with Mass Saves. Main finding was need for more insulation, which would not have increased the electrical usage except in oil burner and pellet stove use. 

We purchased a Kill A Watt measuring device to test pellet stove as use was added in Nov.  

The pellet stove may account for some KWh increase but not the huge one.  Averaging a draw of between 120watts (lower settings) and 180watts (full power).  We thought perhaps the igniter was stuck on, but not the case!

I report the Solar Generation each month to Mass CEC, so I know it is producing. 


Where do we go from here? Any ideas on things we should check?


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## begreen (Jan 30, 2022)

The big draw could be 220v loads. The clothes dryer and hot water heater are typical big consumers.


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## mcdougy (Jan 30, 2022)

How is water supplied to the home?  Is it a 220v pump and well or municipal water line? Is there circulating pumps involved in the heat system?


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## Solarguy3500 (Jan 30, 2022)

Do any of the rooms in the house have electric baseboard heaters?


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## ABMax24 (Jan 30, 2022)

Electric heat of any kind.

Baseboard heaters, portable heaters, space heaters, water tank heater, heat trace on water lines, heaters for animal waterers, electric infloor heat.

I'm assuming most of the load is from the mini-splits though.


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## gthomas785 (Jan 30, 2022)

Does your house have those roof heat cables that come on when it's below 30


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## peakbagger (Jan 31, 2022)

Could you describe what the spreadsheet is showing ?. It looks to me like a solar production meter versus a household usage meter. Solar systems usually are fit to the house and in most cases the roof pitch is lower than optimal for year round total production. This usually means a shallower pitch and more production in the summer, but less total over a year. In some cases, the solar panels cover the total summer load of the house and spare power goes back to the utility to build up  credit which is rapidly exhausted in the fall and winter. 

I would help if you have a spreadsheet that shows solar production, surplus power to the utility and power purchased from the utility. On my Eversource bill its broken out a net sales and net purchases. BTW used electric power meters are cheap on Ebay, it is very handy to have on on your solar output if you do not have a production meter. In theory many PV systems have that available. 

For completeness, (probably not applicable to you) Do you buy your power from the utility or a third party seller?. Yes you still would buy transmisssion services from the local utility but many states allow customers to buy from third parties. These third party sellers do not handle net metering well if at all and many have seen significant rate increases with the big run up in natural gas pricing. A general hint is do not look at dollars when tracking energy use, look at KW hours, then look at the total cost per KWhour delivered. and see how it changes over the year. Some local utilities have seasonal rates (similar to natural gas bills). Most seasonal rates for power are going to have significant run up this winter.  

If it comes down to that you are just using a lot more power, the prior posts list quite a few potential energy hogs. If you were in the country, wells can develop leaks in the piping on the discharge of the pump can leak causing the pump to run near continuous. If the leak is in a well casing its not obvious.

Once you have gone through the usual suspects than its time to get a home energy monitor. I like CT  (current transformer) based units but there are units that claim to be able to detect appliances with no CTs. I think they still need a CT on the solar output. They require less metering but one big caveat is that fitting a CT on the main incoming line to the service panel may be difficult (in my case, it would require major rewiring due to lack of physical space)


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## SciGuy (Jan 31, 2022)

Potluck_Crew said:


> We need some creative minds. New owners of old home since July. We have Solar System that generates between 350 to 600 per month. We are on net metering through National Grid.
> 
> Our electrical/heating profile
> Solar Panels Size: 5.04 kWdc, Monitoring Site: https://www.solrenview.com/SolrenView/mainFr.php?siteId=522
> ...


 
Take a look at you electrical panel to see all the 220 breakers. In the cabin I live in there's a base board heater in the arctic entry as well as a crawl space heater that come on in the winter when it gets cold that really boost the electric bill.  Since their space isn't shared with the pellet stove, we're paying a premium heating them during the cold months. 

Hugh


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## velvetfoot (Jan 31, 2022)

Radiant heat?  Like hot waterwith a constantly running pump?  How do you do Steam and Water from the same boiler?
For what it's worth, you can get more efficient pumps (ecm) or ecms that adjust throughput automatically...I think.  lol.


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## Potluck_Crew (Jan 31, 2022)

mcdougy said:


> How is water supplied to the home?  Is it a 220v pump and well or municipal water line? Is there circulating pumps involved in the heat system?


The water is municipal. The Heating system, part is radiant heat. Other is steam radiators. Both from same oil boiler.


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## gthomas785 (Jan 31, 2022)

velvetfoot said:


> Radiant heat?  Like hot waterwith a constantly running pump?  How do you do Steam and Water from the same boiler?
> For what it's worth, you can get more efficient pumps (ecm) or ecms that adjust throughput automatically...I think.  lol.


It's been done alot, you run a boiling water loop off the boiler through a HX then to a mixing valve for the radiant. Hot start /low limit on the boiler keeps that water hot when steam isn't calling.


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## stoveliker (Jan 31, 2022)

gthomas785 said:


> It's been done alot, you run a boiling water loop off the boiler through a HX then to a mixing valve for the radiant. Hot start /low limit on the boiler keeps that water hot when steam isn't calling.


my espresso machine does it too...


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## EbS-P (Jan 31, 2022)

My utility installed smart meters. And now I have a free  hub that interfaces with the meter and I can measure real-time power consumption.  It’s pretty handy.  I can turn an appliance off or a a breaker (just no the one one with my hub and WiFi router) and see the change.  

This was todays and the spikes are where the heatpump goes into defrost and kicks on 10kw heater.


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## Potluck_Crew (Jan 31, 2022)

peakbagger said:


> Could you describe what the spreadsheet is showing ?. It looks to me like a solar production meter versus a household usage meter. Solar systems usually are fit to the house and in most cases the roof pitch is lower than optimal for year round total production. This usually means a shallower pitch and more production in the summer, but less total over a year. In some cases, the solar panels cover the total summer load of the house and spare power goes back to the utility to build up  credit which is rapidly exhausted in the fall and winter.
> 
> I would help if you have a spreadsheet that shows solar production, surplus power to the utility and power purchased from the utility. On my Eversource bill its broken out a net sales and net purchases. BTW used electric power meters are cheap on Ebay, it is very handy to have on on your solar output if you do not have a production meter. In theory many PV systems have that available.
> 
> ...


Water is municipal supply so no well or 220V draw there.

The spreadsheet is showing the solar generation only. We only have results of net metering with our National Grid system so getting a record of what is sent back out into the electrical grid is not possible. That is a major frustration of mine!

 I do have a production meter with the solar system. That basically is what when into the spreadsheet by online entry. It seems to match what the Solrenview site is recording. We had NO credits built up in the summer, always some sort of Plus on net metering.

I am looking at the KWh monthly that National Grid reports via our net meter. 

I attempted to create a spreadsheet by calculations.


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## Potluck_Crew (Jan 31, 2022)

Solarguy3500 said:


> Do any of the rooms in the house have electric baseboard heaters?


no electric baseboards.


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## Potluck_Crew (Jan 31, 2022)

gthomas785 said:


> Does your house have those roof heat cables that come on when it's below 30


That I do not know.


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## Brian26 (Jan 31, 2022)

Emporia just released the Vue 2 for $150 that can monitor 16 circuits. This would show you exactly where your energy use is. I only got around to installing it on my main larger loads. You can also monitor your solar with the unit if it's feed into your main panel.


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## gthomas785 (Jan 31, 2022)

Potluck_Crew said:


> That I do not know.


They usually look like this or similar.


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## Potluck_Crew (Jan 31, 2022)

No. Thanks!


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## Highbeam (Jan 31, 2022)

gthomas785 said:


> They usually look like this or similar.


OMG, they just run a screws through the roofing?


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## gthomas785 (Jan 31, 2022)

Highbeam said:


> OMG, they just run a screws through the roofing?


Apparently that installer did.   The most common ones I've seen just clip onto the bottom edge of the shingle.


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## RockyMtnGriz (Jan 31, 2022)

I'm multitasking, so if I list something you've already tried, forgive me for not reading carefully, but here's the low tech, non-spreadsheet, non-smartphone approach I'd use first in investigating the issue:

There are some metal roof valleys, and some entire metal roofs that are heated in a way that would not be visible from the exterior.  They're normally thermostatically controlled and could use a ton of power once the weather gets cold.  If you have thermostatically controlled heating tapes on your plumbing, that could also be the culprit.  Heated downspouts and drain lines are included possibilities here.

It looks like you have an old style rotating dial meter.  Those make it pretty easy to watch the usage change as you turn breakers on and off.  I'd account for what any breaker that causes the meter to spin significantly in cold weather is doing with the power, starting with the 220v breakers.  This would be best done at night when your solar is offline.  Alternatively, turn off all of the breakers, and just turn one on at a time, maybe with the obvious big loads like the fridge, water heater, heat sources turned off or unplugged at the unit.  You can measure most of those with your watt meter at the unit to know what they're up to.

I'd wonder what the mini-splits are doing.  Could they be doing frequent power sucking defrosts?  Could they be going into a backup resistance heat mode?

Slim chance, but I wonder about the hybrid HWH.  The water temp coming into my house varies a lot seasonally, dropping to near freezing at mid-winter.  Could colder water coming in be causing the HWH to kick into resistance mode frequently?  I think that can be programmed out to test.  I know my water heating load also goes up a lot in the winter, both because of cold inlet temperature, and because of the tendency to prefer warmed water when it's cold.  Plus, anything mixing hot and cold for a desired temp (shower, washing machine) is going to need more hot and less cold for the same temp.  

The thing about a hybrid HWH, is if it's using inside air, not only will the unit use power, but you're going to need some form of heat to replace what it's taking from the home, so you have to pay for the heat one way or the other in the winter.  I would expect that to create a significant difference season to season all by itself.  They're a good idea, that makes far more sense in the South, than the North.  

Is your house lit up like a sports field inside and out during the long dark days of winter?  Some I see I would need sunglasses to live in!

Have your kids secretly taken up cryptomining as a winter hobby?

Good watt hunting!


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## DBoon (Jan 31, 2022)

A 5 kW array in the northeast is is likely to generate, on average the energy a typical household generates in an average month. In MA, probably about 5.5 to 6 MWh/year. 

I can easily see heat requirements via mini-splits or heat pumps for a 2000 square foot house running at 500 kWh in November and 1000 kWh (or more) in January. Add in electric hot water (colder input water means more electric usage to heat it, or use of electric resistance means to heat it instead of the heat pump on the water heater) and it is easy to see how your electric usage could go up a lot in the wintertime.


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## stoveliker (Jan 31, 2022)

If your heat pump water heater has a setting that you can switch off the resistance back up heat (that most have), I'd do that and see what that does to your kWh consumption.


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## Rusty18 (Jan 31, 2022)

My heat pump hot water tank can be selected hp, hybrid, or resistance.  It made a $80 jump in the electric bill when I changed it from hp only to hybrid...it got changed back!


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## Potluck_Crew (Jan 31, 2022)

RockyMtnGriz said:


> I'm multitasking, so if I list something you've already tried, forgive me for not reading carefully, but here's the low tech, non-spreadsheet, non-smartphone approach I'd use first in investigating the issue:
> 
> There are some metal roof valleys, and some entire metal roofs that are heated in a way that would not be visible from the exterior.  They're normally thermostatically controlled and could use a ton of power once the weather gets cold.  If you have thermostatically controlled heating tapes on your plumbing, that could also be the culprit.  Heated downspouts and drain lines are included possibilities here.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your response! Gives us further ideas. 

No roof or electrical heating tapes. 

The rotary style meter is the solar production meter. The Net Meter is outdoors and is digital. If Net Meter were a rotary one, I could see testing it as you spoke of. 

The mini splits, it is a mystery what they are doing. They are I believe about 15 years old. We turned almost completely off in late Dec.  We've had some experience with a brand new mini split system in our old house, going through one year of use. 

The hybrid HWH...I am awaiting a digital manual from Rheem. It is located in our basement, where hubby says temp is between 40 to 50 degrees since heating season began.(We do not have any heaters in the basement.) It is a 2014 model. Water is municipal supply with supply line coming in very close to heater. I do imagine it is much colder in winter than summer. We do have HWH set on the Energy Saver mode, which I believe will use heat pump feature and switch to electric when no longer efficient. Have it set at 120. It is good for one 10 minute shower. 

Our house can shine brightly when my daughter visits, but not as a football field! We had changed all the bulbs to LCD before the Kwh usage went haywire. And have several motion sensor or timed lightbulbs in various locations(closet, rooms where lights are left on....). Several of the rooms have the built in ceiling fans with about 5 bulbs. But we don't burn all those bulbs! 

It seems that our next step will be to install one of the Emporia Vue 2 monitors on the Main electrical panel. That will permit us to test all the appliances in questions. When I talked today to the Solar Rep at National Grid, she did not even know something like this existed. _*Thank goodness for this Forum! *_

And no to the Kids and Cryptomining! They actually live nearby(age 34-special need twins). Son only stops in when there is food offered and daughter stops in too much! 

I have attached clarifying images of meter as well as the Solrenview data logger that shows up on web address: https://www.solrenview.com/SolrenView/mainFr.php?siteId=522













Thanks again, I will keep you updated.


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## Potluck_Crew (Jan 31, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> If your heat pump water heater has a setting that you can switch off the resistance back up heat (that most have), I'd do that and see what that does to your kWh consumption.


I am irritated that I don't have the manual and have to ask for it online. Likely did not come with a printed manual which is why the previous homeowner did not have.  We are in the process of ruling out various systems. But thus far have only been able to test 110V appliances with our Kill A Watt! Looking at the Emporia Vue 2 suggested in the threads above. Then we can test the HWH!


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## Potluck_Crew (Jan 31, 2022)

Rusty18 said:


> My heat pump hot water tank can be selected hp, hybrid, or resistance.  It made a $80 jump in the electric bill when I changed it from hp only to hybrid...it got changed back!


Mine are  energy Saver, heat pump, electric only. I guess my energy saver translates to hybrid. I want to see the operations specs in regards to min air temps before I test the hp mode. Our Rheem is located in our basement, which has no "official" heat, only the boiler benefit, and the radiant heat in the ceiling, although insulated under the radiant pipes.  Temps rainge from 40 to 50 since the beginning of heating season. 

I am awaiting the manual via email. Can't seem to find one online. 

Thanks


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## Potluck_Crew (Jan 31, 2022)

DBoon said:


> A 5 kW array in the northeast is is likely to generate, on average the energy a typical household generates in an average month. In MA, probably about 5.5 to 6 MWh/year.
> 
> I can easily see heat requirements via mini-splits or heat pumps for a 2000 square foot house running at 500 kWh in November and 1000 kWh (or more) in January. Add in electric hot water (colder input water means more electric usage to heat it, or use of electric resistance means to heat it instead of the heat pump on the water heater) and it is easy to see how your electric usage could go up a lot in the wintertime.


Our solar array historically has generated about 6.5 MWh the last 6 years according to our solar logging website. 

We know how mini splits can cause increased usage in cold temps. We have one year of mini splits under our belt...outfitting our old house with them before selling. 

We thought in Nov/Dec that we were using sparingly, not as the main source of heat...We shut all but one down. It is used about 2 hours a day. We are using Pellet stove and oil radiation & radiant as heat source mainly.  Tested pellet stove using kill a watt. Max increase in Kwh about 125Kwh/month. 

Boiler Kwh is unknown yet. 

In regards to the the heatpump vs hybrid setting of Rheem HWH. What is the min efficient temperature? We have it on "Engery Saver" which I believe is Hybrid. Our basement is 40 to 50 degrees. *Awaiting a digital copy of manual from Rheem. *

We will be getting an emporia Vue 2 which will let us test the non  110V systems. 

Thanks for your thoughts.


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## Solarguy3500 (Jan 31, 2022)

DBoon said:


> A 5 kW array in the northeast is is likely to generate, on average the energy a typical household generates in an average month. In MA, probably about 5.5 to 6 MWh/year.
> 
> I can easily see heat requirements via mini-splits or heat pumps for a 2000 square foot house running at 500 kWh in November and 1000 kWh (or more) in January. Add in electric hot water (colder input water means more electric usage to heat it, or use of electric resistance means to heat it instead of the heat pump on the water heater) and it is easy to see how your electric usage could go up a lot in the wintertime.


Agreed.

After reading through this thread again, I think it's likely there is nothing wrong or out of the ordinary as far as energy usage is concerned. @DBoon makes some really good points here, as others have as well. This time of year the solar is not contributing much. My 15.2 kW array only produced 355 kWh in January.

The thing that really caught my eye reading through the OP again is that there are 5 heat pumps that are 15 years old. I missed the 15 years old part the first time I read through. I think those are most of your culprit. 15 year old heat pumps are not nearly as efficient as newer ones and probably not cold climate ones, so they'd have to work really hard (use a ton of energy) for heating when the temps get low.

@Potluck_Crew  you said earlier that you shut the mini splits off after you got the December bill, but in a more recent post you say you are still using one of them. I really think they are what is causing the majority of the high energy usage, as well as other things mentioned previously such as the water heater working harder due to colder inlet water, etc .


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## Potluck_Crew (Jan 31, 2022)

Solarguy3500 said:


> Agreed.
> 
> After reading through this thread again, I think it's likely there is nothing wrong or out of the ordinary as far as energy usage is concerned. @DBoon makes some really good points here, as others have as well. This time of year the solar is not contributing much. My 15.2 kW array only produced 355 kWh in January.
> 
> ...


Thank you.  
The one mini split we use is for 2 hours a day to bring bathroom up to temp. Before the " Mostly shut down," had several hours a day on  a couple of splits. 

There are 3 outdoor units, installed in stages. I don't think I have in the house paperwork the install info. After solar install, which was 2008.  Will have to see how I can document ages and such! I will have to wade through snow for outside look at one of the units. 

We will be getting that Vue 2 monitor and it will help to give us some answers! Thanks!


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## Brian26 (Feb 1, 2022)

The Vue 2 will let your figure it out easily. Its also been extremely cold in New England the last month and the Fitchburg Airport which is the closest climate station to you was way below normal. Your hot water heater and boiler have been working way harder than normal especially with all the well below normal night time lows. Its just simply been a really cold month. I bet there have been many nights where your boiler has been running nearly continously.


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## RockyMtnGriz (Feb 1, 2022)

FWIW, I just got a meter installed this fall that appears all but identical to your service meter.  Mine is not a NET meter, but the same otherwise.  Mine has 3 or 4 little bars at the bottom left that mimic the movement of the old spinning disc.  They move left to right, then annoyingly disappear for a while before starting at the left again as power is consumed.  It's not as easy to judge load as the good old disc, but still possible.  You might check to see if yours has them too.  Worst case, there's patience combined with the KWH counter.

When you say that your HWH has a "heat pump" mode, that makes me think that it's at least part of the issue.  I'm almost certain that it's going to be able to run the backup resistance elements in "energy saver" mode.  Plus, the fact that you know it's only good for a 10 minute shower leads me to think that you're pushing it near its limits often enough to know that.  Unless it's in heat pump only mode it's going to kick the resistance elements on long before (and after) it gets to cold shower temps.  See if you can live with "heat pump" (only) mode.  If nothing else, it'll give you a clue about how much past the heat pump capacity you're currently going.  Strangely, turning up the temp could also help in energy saver mode if it keeps the water hot enough in your normal use to avoid having the resistance elements kick on (if that helps, it won't really matter if it's in heat pump or energy saver mode  - it's effectively just heat pump mode with a higher temp setting).  And, while the thought alone is depressing, maybe you need a low (at least lower) flow shower head??  They make a difference.  Adjustable flow heads are a good compromise between depression and hedonism.

When you say that your HWH is in the basement, but with no heat there, that really isn't going to make a difference.  Think of the whole space inside the home as one sealed space (at least for this purpose).  You can't take any heat from any space anywhere inside your home without affecting the total heat in your home.  If you lower the total, you're going to have to make that up.  It's more efficient to make it up with a heat pump than other methods (usually), but it's still going to cost you somehow.

You got me thinking, so I pulled out my power bill for a little comparison.  I have a 3.500 - 4,000 sq ft home in a very cold climate.  It's just my wife and I, but we work from home, so we're always here, computers and tvs are on a lot.  What I think is interesting about the comparison is that I have almost nothing that uses electricity specifically to produce heat.  We have all the normal electronic gizmos, and a fridge and a freezer in the garage big enough that Jimmy Hoffa _could_ be in the bottom of it and I wouldn't know.  That's in addition to the biggest semi-normal fridge/freezer my wife could find, in the kitchen.  All are 8-15 years old.  We don't have a well pump, or anything else to add noise to the electric bill.  The only thing that *is* a problem is I do have my roof ringed with roof cables, which I use as sparingly as possible, and they can really suck up the juice when I have to use them.  But I'm able to correct for that use pretty well.  Hot water comes from wood, except for a short time in the summer when it's propane.

Looking at my bill, it ranges from about 300-350 kwh in the June to Aug ust area, to 400-500 kwh in Jan or Feb.  Around 40% higher in winter.  The need for some extra roof cable use in the warmer months of Oct. or March and April, can kick it to almost 500 too, but that's just wasted heat outside the house.  I just plugged my wood furnace into the Kill a Watt, and it's 265 watts for the blower and HWH pump.  If that's running 100% of the time, as it can get close to doing in the dead of winter, that's about the entire 200 kwh increase.  There might be some slight need for roof heat, and a little engine heater use, but my garage fridge and freezers go into a coma to the point where I have to rotate warm water jugs into the fridge daily to keep it from becoming a freezer too.  So, it probably somewhat balances out.

The point of all of this is that my bill bumps 40% ish in the winter, and while the heat from that ends up in my house, I don't have the bill bump from using electricity as a significant heat source.  For the heat part, I'm burning around 7 cords of wood, very efficiently, and maybe 50 gallons of propane in the range which, being unvented, is also very efficient.  I'm probably in a much colder climate than you, but keep in mind that my target house temp is 60 degrees +-3, - upstairs.  I'll let someone else convert my wood and propane to KWH, as I'm sure somebody here has the conversion at hand.  If you knew how many KWH hour equivalents of pellets and oil you're burning, that would be an interesting comparison as well.

Depending on how much pellet and oil fuel you're using, it might not be unreasonable for your electric use to triple in the winter.  You're actually getting heat from your usage.  I spend the short summer cutting wood.  I don't have a mini-split (yet), but I'm guessing it puts out much more heat than a simple space heater, and I know that if I were to run a space heater a couple of hours a day, it would definitely help with my heat load.  You've cut down the electric draw by cutting down the mini-splits, while probably increasing the electric draw from the pellet stove, and the oil burner, yet all the while burning oil and pellets you're also going to have to pay for.  

First, you need to make sure you don't have something subtle or strange that's derailing you.  There's a ton of ideas in the previous posts.  You don't really need an "app" for that.  The service meter is the ultimate arbitrator that your utility is billing you from.  Weather it is easy to watch with an easily observed disc, or difficult because it only reads KWH, you can get the same data, it just might take more time and patience.  Watch the meter, and flip the breakers, or install an electronic alternative, it's your time and money and up to you.   

If you don't find a big problem, and even if you do, you should do some calculations yourself.  I will suggest that maybe you're doing it wrong (no disrespect - it takes time to figure out this complicated stuff).  Cutting the mini-splits at the expense of running the pellet and oil burners may be the wrong approach, depending on the cost of electricity, fuel, and the COP of the mini-splits at the temperatures you're experiencing.  You need to figure out the break-even points between the heating options you have.  With a COP of say, 3.0 and an equivalent cost of 1.5x electricity vs. (fuel cost + electricity use on the fuel burner), it should cost half as much to run the mini splits.  COP varies by temperature though, so if it's a 50 degree afternoon, it's an easy bet you're way ahead with the mini-splits running.  You should probably even run them to a few degrees above your desired temp to bank heat for the colder night (similar to turning up the HWH to save $).  If it's -25, well, you'll know for sure if you've done the math, but there's a good chance you're ahead with a fuel burning device.  If you calc it out, you'll know when it's time to switch from one source to another, or generally seasonally if you prefer not to make a profession out of heating your house.  This site can also be a huge resource in helping you to improve efficiency.

In the end, the sad truth, I think, is going to be, that energy ain't free, in fact, it's pretty expensive, yet maybe in the perceived moment, cheaper than it should be.  If you want the big house, the fast car, or generally, the carefree - I'll consume it if I feel like it - lifestyle, you're going to have to pay for it.  The opposite of that is the mindful, conserve it where you can, and where it doesn't hurt too much, approach.  You will probably find the ultimate solution in turning down the thermostat, taking non-orgasmic showers, turning off the lights when you're not absolutely using the light, killing the vampire loads, putting easily available wood into the woodstove, and choosing the right heat source for the job to be done at the time - those kind of things.  

Don't take this wrong - yes, I exaggerate, but you get the point, it's a lot of small efforts, as long as they are not offset by a few big mistakes.  You're getting monthly electricity from your solar panels equivalent to what I just paid $62 for.  I know people who have $400+ monthly electric bills, and they're not in all-electric homes.  They have more "spare time", but have less financial security, or have to work harder to make money.  If you want to live the same life as my friends, you're effectively going to have to come up with the extra $338 a month.  How you do it is your choice.  Or, do this work, and have the small bill, and maybe retire earlier or better, or at least more securely.

I think you're trying have the small bill, that's why you're here, and I commend that.  It's worth it, and doable, but if it was easy, it would be more popular.  So far, I have a house that has room for my business, in a very cold place where I spend zero for A/C, and average of $40 a month for electricity, and every 5 years or so, I buy a few hundred gallons of propane when it's around $1 a gallon.  That's savings i can put to much better use.  And, I cut a fair bit of wood, which starts out free, though it doesn't end quite that way, yet it keeps me in shape, and beats the hell out of a real job.

Keep at it and you'll figure it out!


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## gthomas785 (Feb 1, 2022)

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that cold climate heat pumps (including mini splits) usually have a compressor heater that keeps the compressor oil liquefied when it's not running. That way it is able to start in freezing conditions. Just turning the mini split "off" may not actually save that much energy compared to flipping it off at the breaker.

Just be careful when you turn it back on, and let it warm up for a few hours before starting it or you could damage the compressor.


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## Potluck_Crew (Feb 1, 2022)

gthomas785 said:


> One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that cold climate heat pumps (including mini splits) usually have a compressor heater that keeps the compressor oil liquefied when it's not running. That way it is able to start in freezing conditions. Just turning the mini split "off" may not actually save that much energy compared to flipping it off at the breaker.
> 
> Just be careful when you turn it back on, and let it warm up for a few hours before starting it or you could damage the compressor.


That is a move I can make! Thanks


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## RockyMtnGriz (Feb 1, 2022)

I made a rule some time back, that insomniac ramblings should be edited (or deleted) by someone who has not been awake for more than 24 hours.  I see that I've broken that rule again.


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## Potluck_Crew (Feb 1, 2022)

RockyMtnGriz said:


> I made a rule some time back, that insomniac ramblings should be edited (or deleted) by someone who has not been awake for more than 24 hours.  I see that I've broken that rule again.


But you give me lots to think about.

Yes, I want the lower bill! But what I really want is an explanation for a jump of approx 200% in usage from Oct to Nov.  Is it something I can address and modify? We loved this house when we looked at it because of all the green energy options built in. Something Green has turned RED! We still LOVE the house! 

Awaiting the Vue 2 Energy Monitor to arrive.


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## gthomas785 (Feb 1, 2022)

Potluck_Crew said:


> But you give me lots to think about.
> 
> Yes, I want the lower bill! But what I really want is an explanation for a jump of approx 200% in usage from Oct to Nov.  Is it something I can address and modify? We loved this house when we looked at it because of all the green energy options built in. Something Green has turned RED! We still LOVE the house!


Oh, the joys of heating a house through the New England winter!

Your electric usage does seem high for non-electric resistance heat.

Not a great referene for comparison... but in our 2500 sqft, poorly insulated house which is also in MA, we used 800 kWh in December. That was with 1 mini split running, a bunch of christmas lights, electric stove baking, 2 wood stoves, gas hot water. An average month for us is closer to 500-600 kWh. We don't have solar.

I believe that with a bit of patience and deductive reasoning you will find the culprit, and I would bet it's a resistive heating element somewhere.


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## EbS-P (Feb 1, 2022)

Potluck_Crew said:


> But you give me lots to think about.
> 
> Yes, I want the lower bill! But what I really want is an explanation for a jump of approx 200% in usage from Oct to Nov.  Is it something I can address and modify? We loved this house when we looked at it because of all the green energy options built in. Something Green has turned RED! We still LOVE the house!
> 
> ...


I looked up the heating degree days for Boston. Something like 5600.  Cooling degree days is less than 1000. Here we have 2300 cooling degree days and I can use  1500kw hours with a base load of about 700 kw hr for an all electric house.  

Back of the napkin math says my cooling is 800kw hr a month for 2200 cooling degree days.  Let’s say double that plus 20% (defrost and crank case heaters).  If I were to take my house up north to Boston where they have twice as many heating degree days. . I would estimate my heatpump to consume 2000 kw hr a month.

It’s not specific to your house but in general winter is just expensive when it comes to electric consumption.  I will leave you with my latest snapshot of what the average 3000 sq ft hime built in the 1960s with heatpump heat consumed last billing cycle.       2200 kW hrs!!   Yep. That’s down south 2300 heating degree days.  


Don’t give up you will find it what’s consuming all the power. I don’t think it’s just one thing. Think of it this way 100w crank case heater run 24-7 is 75 kw a month.    I know my heatpump water heater runs 30% more just because the incoming water temp drops 20 degrees or so during the winter.  Lights are on more as daylight hours are shorter.  We bake in the electric oven more.  Xmas lights  List could go on.


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## woodgeek (Feb 1, 2022)

I seem to recall that the older (Gen 1) Rheem HPWHs (like more than 7-8 years old) switched to regular electric at a higher air temp than other models.  Like 60°F?  It was one reason why I didn't buy that model back in 2012.

HPWH report:

That could be good for 200-300 kWh/mo when it got cold.


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## Potluck_Crew (Feb 2, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> I looked up the heating degree days for Boston. Something like 5600.  Cooling degree days is less than 1000. Here we have 2300 cooling degree days and I can use  1500kw hours with a base load of about 700 kw hr for an all electric house.
> 
> Back of the napkin math says my cooling is 800kw hr a month for 2200 cooling degree days.  Let’s say double that plus 20% (defrost and crank case heaters).  If I were to take my house up north to Boston where they have twice as many heating degree days. . I would estimate my heatpump to consume 2000 kw hr a month.
> 
> ...





woodgeek said:


> I seem to recall that the older (Gen 1) Rheem HPWHs (like more than 7-8 years old) switched to regular electric at a higher air temp than other models.  Like 60°F?  It was one reason why I didn't buy that model back in 2012.
> 
> HPWH report:
> 
> That could be good for 200-300 kWh/mo when it got cold.


Thanks for the info. Ours is a 2014 model and rated down to 40 degree ambient temp. We have turned it to heat pump only as of last night. We will see how it behaves!


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## Brian26 (Feb 2, 2022)

woodgeek said:


> I seem to recall that the older (Gen 1) Rheem HPWHs (like more than 7-8 years old) switched to regular electric at a higher air temp than other models.  Like 60°F?  It was one reason why I didn't buy that model back in 2012.
> 
> HPWH report:
> 
> That could be good for 200-300 kWh/mo when it got cold.


Or maybe more. I just installed the Emporia Vue 2 and connected my 8 year old GE Geospring circuit. Its been really cold here the last few weeks and my incoming city water has been ice cold. I did some experimenting running in heat pump only mode and all electric element on days with similar temps.  I was really shocked how much more electricity I used  in electric element only mode as you can see from this chart.  It also shows how much savings the heat pump can provide.  Heat pump only mode consumed about 2-4 kwh day compared to a whooping 8-10 in electric only mode. 

Its just my wife and I so I could imagine with kids the usage could be huge running electric elements.


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## woodgeek (Feb 2, 2022)

Potluck_Crew said:


> Thanks for the info. Ours is a 2014 model and rated down to 40 degree ambient temp. We have turned it to heat pump only as of last night. We will see how it behaves!


You'll need to read the manual.  The Gen 1 switched to electric resistance at 60°F irrespective of what mode it was in!  Because the air coil was undersized and would start to frost up at that temp, and HPWHs generally don't do defrost cycles.


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## Potluck_Crew (Feb 2, 2022)

woodgeek said:


> You'll need to read the manual.  The Gen 1 switched to electric resistance at 60°F irrespective of what mode it was in!  Because the air coil was undersized and would start to frost up at that temp, and HPWHs generally don't do defrost cycles.


Will do. Thanks.


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## EbS-P (Feb 2, 2022)

Potluck_Crew said:


> Will do. Thanks.


I had an issue with mine where it was using the element in heatpump only and a hard reset corrected it.


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## Potluck_Crew (Feb 3, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> I had an issue with mine where it was using the element in heatpump only and a hard reset corrected it.


Did you pick up on that through energy monitoring?


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## Potluck_Crew (Feb 3, 2022)

Solarguy3500 said:


> Agreed.
> 
> After reading through this thread again, I think it's likely there is nothing wrong or out of the ordinary as far as energy usage is concerned. @DBoon makes some really good points here, as others have as well. This time of year the solar is not contributing much. My 15.2 kW array only produced 355 kWh in January.
> 
> ...


So, I found the manual and the temp rating for heating. But honestly I don't know how to interpret this information. 
And the the "without any frost"?

Any help is appreciated! 
Again, we are thinking these are likely about 15 years old?


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## woodgeek (Feb 3, 2022)

Potluck_Crew said:


> Did you pick up on that through energy monitoring?


With mine, I can obviously hear the compressor and fan going when its in HP mode, and when it goes to the element the fan turns off and it makes a little boiling noise like a regular electric HWH.   If the fan is not running after you take a shower, its probably using the element.

My 10 yo AO Smith only does that when it gets to 40°F in my attached tuck-under garage, which is only during polar vortex events.


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## EbS-P (Feb 3, 2022)

Potluck_Crew said:


> Did you pick up on that through energy monitoring?


Yes.  A constant 6kw load is pretty easy to spot.


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## EbS-P (Feb 3, 2022)

Potluck_Crew said:


> So, I found the manual and the temp rating for heating. But honestly I don't know how to interpret this information.
> And the the "without any frost"?
> 
> Any help is appreciated!
> ...


So you can see that the TC shows heat produced so at 45 dedgres wet bulb temp outside you and get 22.2 k btus (at 70 degrees inside temp)  consuming 1.6 kw.    At 5 degrees wet bulb you get half of that  10.3 k btus using 0.87 kw.    I’m not sure why they use wet bulb outside.  

With out any frost comment I assume is meaning no ice on the outside coil causing the unit to defrost.  

And you said you have 5 of those 1.5 ton units?   Even at at 15 degrees you have over  60,000 btus of heating capacity.  And could consume 6kw.   Now they all might not runn at the same time or at full output.  


Here is a similar chart for my unit.  Outdoor temps on the left column indoor return temp is along the top.


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## sloeffle (Feb 3, 2022)

Potluck_Crew said:


> And no to the Kids and Cryptomining! They actually live nearby(age 34-special need twins). Son only stops in when there is food offered and daughter stops in too much!


I LOL'd too hard at that.

Great thread BTW, I'm learning a lot. I'm probably going to order a couple ( two panels in my house ) Emporia's myself.


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## Potluck_Crew (Feb 3, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> So you can see that the TC shows heat produced so at 45 dedgres wet bulb temp outside you and get 22.2 k btus (at 70 degrees inside temp)  consuming 1.6 kw.    At 5 degrees wet bulb you get half of that  10.3 k btus using 0.87 kw.    I’m not sure why they use wet bulb outside.
> 
> With out any frost comment I assume is meaning no ice on the outside coil causing the unit to defrost.
> 
> ...


We have two of that size, and one smaller. Total of 6 cassettes inside. 

Thanks for the explanation. I am beginning to grasp it.


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## woodgeek (Feb 3, 2022)

The choice of wet-bulb outside is bc of condensation/frosting.  Under dry conditions, the outdoor coil runs a few degrees cooler than the outdoor air (dry-bulb) temp.  If its humid outside, such that condensation forms, the outdoor coil runs warmer, at the wet-bulb temp, rather than the dry-bulb temp - Delta T.  With the heat of condensation contributing heat to the coil.

That is, my HP puts out MORE BTUs at 45°F when its raining than when its sunny.  Bc when its raining, the outdoor coil is at 45°F (wet-bulb), whereas when its sunny, it is probably more like 38-40°F (dry-bulb-5-7°F).  I can tell by measuring the temp of the air coming out of the registers.


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## Potluck_Crew (Feb 3, 2022)

woodgeek said:


> The choice of wet-bulb outside is bc of condensation/frosting.  Under dry conditions, the outdoor coil runs a few degrees cooler than the outdoor air (dry-bulb) temp.  If its humid outside, such that condensation forms, the outdoor coil runs warmer, at the wet-bulb temp, rather than the dry-bulb temp - Delta T.  With the heat of condensation contributing heat to the coil.
> 
> That is, my HP puts out MORE BTUs at 45°F when its raining than when its sunny.  Bc when its raining, the outdoor coil is at 45°F (wet-bulb), whereas when its sunny, it is probably more like 38-40°F (dry-bulb-5-7°F).  I can tell by measuring the temp of the air coming out of the registers.


Thank you for this explanation on wet and dry bulb. That was something I was surely not clear on!


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## Potluck_Crew (Feb 4, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> So you can see that the TC shows heat produced so at 45 dedgres wet bulb temp outside you and get 22.2 k btus (at 70 degrees inside temp)  consuming 1.6 kw.    At 5 degrees wet bulb you get half of that  10.3 k btus using 0.87 kw.    I’m not sure why they use wet bulb outside.
> 
> With out any frost comment I assume is meaning no ice on the outside coil causing the unit to defrost.
> 
> ...


So, I thoroughly enjoyed working the math and formulas(Retired Middle school Math Teacher) .

I learned about COP, Coefficient of Performance  and used the formula and steps I found on this website: https://www.pickhvac.com/faq/heat-pump-cop/







Here is a chart of our particular system. In the spec sheets, it does list a COP of 4.11

I know this is a very simple interpretation of the system.


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## Brian26 (Feb 4, 2022)

woodgeek said:


> The choice of wet-bulb outside is bc of condensation/frosting.  Under dry conditions, the outdoor coil runs a few degrees cooler than the outdoor air (dry-bulb) temp.  If its humid outside, such that condensation forms, the outdoor coil runs warmer, at the wet-bulb temp, rather than the dry-bulb temp - Delta T.  With the heat of condensation contributing heat to the coil.
> 
> That is, my HP puts out MORE BTUs at 45°F when its raining than when its sunny.  Bc when its raining, the outdoor coil is at 45°F (wet-bulb), whereas when its sunny, it is probably more like 38-40°F (dry-bulb-5-7°F).  I can tell by measuring the temp of the air coming out of the registers.


Yeah. There is a noticeable difference in heat output with high wet bulb temps. I'm on the shoreline that has constant high outdoor wet bulb temps. Right now its in the upper 40's with 100% humidity and I just turned on one of my splits and its incredible how much heat it putting out at its minimum capacity using only 200 watts. I often see my outdoor condenser coil with a steady stream of water from the basepan.  Its incredible how much that huge outdoor coil can sweat in high wet bulbs.


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## Potluck_Crew (Feb 7, 2022)

Potluck_Crew said:


> We need some creative minds. New owners of old home since July. We have Solar System that generates between 350 to 600 per month. We are on net metering through National Grid.
> 
> Our electrical/heating profile
> Solar Panels Size: 5.04 kWdc, Monitoring Site: https://www.solrenview.com/SolrenView/mainFr.php?siteId=522
> ...


We have electrician coming tomorrow(2/8) to install the Emporia Vue to our main panel. Hubby could do it, but we also have a few other electrical jobs to be done. Looking forward to unravelling our puzzle.


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## Potluck_Crew (Feb 11, 2022)

Getting closer to the answer. Installed a Emporia Vue2 on the main electrical panel, and the electricians are coming back to install a 2nd one on the sub panel that holds HWH, Mini Splits. We have been trying to chase down the various circuits on the main panel. They had changes over the last few years apparently and are not labeled correctly. More sleuthing! We do see that our Fridge is not very efficient by today's standards....This snapshot is just of the last hour's electrical use on the main panel(Warm day, not calling for boiler, no laundry going right now....)


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## Potluck_Crew (Mar 13, 2022)

We think we have the answer...finally. One of our 3 split system outside units is malfunctioning. 
We finally had the 2nd vue energy monitor installed on the 2nd circuit panel. 

Measuring the two units, both with the inside units OFF, one used .03 Kw in an hour, the malfunctioning one, .5Kw in the hour. So we will get a tech over to take a look. Both of these outside units are raised off the ground and have good circulation.

In regards to the heatpump hot water heater, only 2 days in with the energy monitor. We set it a month ago on  HEATPUMP only. In two days of monitoring it used average of 3kWh a day. (both weekend days with lots of activity!)

I am so appreciative of all the help this forum has given. I have found a new thing to study in my retirement...energy use!


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## Brian26 (Mar 14, 2022)

Potluck_Crew said:


> We think we have the answer...finally. One of our 3 split system outside units is malfunctioning.
> We finally had the 2nd vue energy monitor installed on the 2nd circuit panel.
> 
> Measuring the two units, both with the inside units OFF, one used .03 Kw in an hour, the malfunctioning one, .5Kw in the hour. So we will get a tech over to take a look. Both of these outside units are raised off the ground and have good circulation.
> ...


Thats probably normal for the mini splits to draw some power when they are off. The compressors have an electric heat wrap to keep them warm. When its cold liquid refrigerant will settle in the compressor and can damage it if it tries to run when its cold.. I have the Emporia vue as well and you can actually see the heater come on.


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## Potluck_Crew (Mar 14, 2022)

Brian26 said:


> Thats probably normal for the mini splits to draw some power when they are off. The compressors have an electric heat wrap to keep them warm. When its cold liquid refrigerant will settle in the compressor and can damage it if it tries to run when its cold.. I have the Emporia vue as well and you can actually see the heater come on.


I can see it is normal for the cycling on/off and defrost cycle. But the one we feel is malfunctioning used about 15x the electrical draw in the same time frame. Love the Vue, wish I would started months ago with it. Would have saved us some buck with our 27 cents per kwh!


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## semipro (Mar 14, 2022)

Potluck_Crew said:


> I have found a new thing to study in my retirement...energy use!


Have you started looking at parasitic draws elsewhere yet, for fun you know?   
Certain devices found in entertainment centers are particular culprits (e.g satellite and cable boxes).  
I ended up putting our entertainment center on a smart receptacle to address these losses.


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## Potluck_Crew (Mar 14, 2022)

semipro said:


> Have you started looking at parasitic draws elsewhere yet, for fun you know?
> Certain devices found in entertainment centers are particular culprits (e.g satellite and cable boxes).
> I ended up putting our entertainment center on a smart receptacle to address these losses.


Yes, likely, now that we found the big draw! In one month our usage went up 300%! This vue energy monitor is amazing!  We have on order a new fridge. Current one works, but is about 20 years old and not very efficient. Dining room outlets reflect pellet stove draw.


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## fire_man (Mar 15, 2022)

gthomas785 said:


> Oh, the joys of heating a house through the New England winter!
> 
> Your electric usage does seem high for non-electric resistance heat.
> 
> ...


Here is another reference for comparision:

We have a similar setup (2300 sq ft house, not great insulation) in the same climate. Two woodstoves, Oil fired hot water heater, Large Fridge (25 years old) , Basement Freezer, Electric Dryer, Electric range . My usage  was  423 KWH  Dec 15-Jan 15  which included christmas lights compared to your 800 KWH . Eyeballing my chart it looks like my monthly average is around 500 kWH. No Solar. My usage does seem kind of low especially considering I have such an old Fridge and a separate Freezer.

I'm guessing you are not using the 2 Woodstoves as much as me and your Minisplit made up most of the 377 KWH difference in December. My Summer spike is due to a dehumidifier and AC.


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## Potluck_Crew (Mar 15, 2022)

fire_man said:


> Here is another reference for comparision:
> 
> We have a similar setup (2300 sq ft house, not great insulation) in the same climate. Two woodstoves, Oil fired hot water heater, Large Fridge (25 years old) , Basement Freezer, Electric Dryer, Electric range . My usage  was  423 KWH  Dec 15-Jan 15 compared to your 800 KWH . Eyeballing my chart it looks like my monthly average is around 500 kWH. No Solar.
> 
> ...


Yes, the


fire_man said:


> Here is another reference for comparision:
> 
> We have a similar setup (2300 sq ft house, not great insulation) in the same climate. Two woodstoves, Oil fired hot water heater, Large Fridge (25 years old) , Basement Freezer, Electric Dryer, Electric range . My usage  was  423 KWH  Dec 15-Jan 15 compared to your 800 KWH . Eyeballing my chart it looks like my monthly average is around 500 kWH. No Solar. My usage does seem kind of low especially considering I have such an old Fridge and a separate Freezer.
> 
> ...


Yes, we only have one pellet stove. It is undersized for whole house heating so when it is cold, it runs full force.(about .25kw per hour) That eats up some electric. I do appreciate the comparison. We have a basement freezer we have not plugged in yet. Trying to see if we can get by without it. 

Having tech come look at one mini split which we believe is malfunctioning after putting an energy monitor on everything.  It used 15x the energy as another split outside unit, same timeframe, temp and demand. 

Other electrical savings steps we are/have taken: new pellet stove on order-sized for whole house heat. New fridge(energy star rated) on order that will hopefully cut that usage in half. We set the water heater on heat pump only and that is helping! 

Finally getting some answers! 

Thanks


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## fire_man (Mar 15, 2022)

Potluck_Crew said:


> Yes, likely, now that we found the big draw! In one month our usage went up 300%! This vue energy monitor is amazing!  We have on order a new fridge. Current one works, but is about 20 years old and not very efficient. Dining room outlets reflect pellet stove draw.
> 
> View attachment 293548
> View attachment 293549


Would you mind sharing the cost for the Vue monitor including the cost to install in both panels ? 
Had you researched other monitors as well? I really like the level of detail you get and the friendly easy to understand display.


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## Potluck_Crew (Mar 15, 2022)

fire_man said:


> Would you mind sharing the cost for the Vue monitor including the cost to install in both panels ?
> Had you researched other monitors as well? I really like the level of detail you get and the friendly easy to understand display.


I had not done much research on other monitors, but saw on this Forum the type of details that were available and that Vue was now a 2nd generation product. I went for it. The cost from Amazon..
Full "kit" monitor, and 16 circuit monitors was $150. A smaller kit with monitor and 8 circuit monitors was $110. 
I bought full kit first, had installed. Then purchased smaller kit and it was installed later.  
You do have to have a 2.4 GHz wifi available. (We had to add a wifi range extender in the basement.)

The first kit, with 16 monitors went into a jammed packed panel. It took 2 man hours of electricians doing it. The 2nd kit with the 8 monitors, I haven't gotten the bill for yet, but I think it was only 1 man hour. Our rates here in central MA are $85 per man hour. So all in all, my total cost for installation are likely about $270. 

Depending on your basic electrical comfort level, you might be able to put in yourself. My husband preferred that the electricians do the work. There are some youtube videos that you can watch about the basic monitor and also installs.  So all in, I have over $500 in the system. for 2 Circuit panels. But the savings will surely pay for itself.  We went from a $20 electric bill to a $270 in one month. 

For a 240 amp breaker, once you verify that both circuits are fairly equal, you can move one of the monitors to another breaker, and set a multiplier of 2. In my images in previous post, I have the boiler, water heater and dryer set up that way. It makes your 16 sensors go farther. I am totally comfortable in moving the sensors around to different circuits. 

Here is the link to Amazon and the product:  Amazon product


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## fire_man (Mar 16, 2022)

Potluck_Crew said:


> I had not done much research on other monitors, but saw on this Forum the type of details that were available and that Vue was now a 2nd generation product. I went for it. The cost from Amazon..
> Full "kit" monitor, and 16 circuit monitors was $150. A smaller kit with monitor and 8 circuit monitors was $110.
> I bought full kit first, had installed. Then purchased smaller kit and it was installed later.
> You do have to have a 2.4 GHz wifi available. (We had to add a wifi range extender in the basement.)
> ...



*Thanks for the great details. I can imagine if the panel was already jam packed it might be tricky to install. I can see how especially in your case it would pay for itself quickly due to a defective appliance. I like that the sensors are magnetically coupled so no need to break any connections.*​*On a similar subject, I have heard horror stories about people with outrageous water bills due to one leaky toilet. *


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