# Why can't stove pipe be used as a chimney?



## gapman789 (Nov 5, 2010)

Hey everyone. I've been searching and reading  all I can  for tips and instruction on how to install a wood burning stove in my 24' x 30' detached garage.
I have a good size AURORA stove.

My plans are to keep the stove 5-6 ft from the back wall.
I was going to put a '90' on the back of the stove and then put a 4-5 ft. section of black pipe.  Then another '90' and run a few more feet of stove pipe that I will connect to some double or triple wall pipe to go thru the CELOTEX wall and wood siding , which make up my garage walls.
Once I'm outside the garage about 2-3 ft., I was going to run black stove pipe straight up about 10-12 ft to get past the peak of the roof.

Can I not use stove pipe as my chimney, with a cap/rain shield on top of it?

Also, could I not just run the double wall pipe thru the wall  and let it extend a few feet on the outsdie and turn it upward for 1-2 ft and be done with it, instead of running a stack/chimney all the way up?

Thanks


----------



## jotulguy (Nov 5, 2010)

#1 clearances #2 you need that heat in the pipe so you arent forming creosote. The flue would cool too fast and only cause you issues down the road.....high risk of chimney fires!


----------



## corey21 (Nov 5, 2010)

jotulguy said:
			
		

> #1 clearances #2 you need that heat in the pipe so you arent forming creosote. The flue would cool too fast and only cause you issues down the road.....high risk of chimney fires!


Agreed your system will not get enough heat draft would be poor and a ton of creosote.


----------



## SteveKG (Nov 5, 2010)

gapman789 said:
			
		

> Once I'm outside the garage about 2-3 ft., I was going to run black stove pipe straight up about 10-12 ft to get past the peak of the roof.
> 
> Can I not use stove pipe as my chimney, with a cap/rain shield on top of it?
> 
> ...




If I am picturing this correctly, your stove pipe would end at or just above the eve of the roof??? I mean, if you ran it up only a couple feet after the elbow. This is bad news. For one thing, there is the distinct possibility of emitting embers or sparks right there at roof level. For another, any wind/air movement [atmospheric] will wreck havoc with back/down drafting. The pipe needs to go higher, period. It should be higher by a few feet than the top of the roof. 

You can use regular stovepipe for this. The problem is, as someone said, the exhaust being too cool and the formation of crud inside the pipe [because the crud will condense against the walls of the pipe if a) the walls of the pipe are too cool and/or b) the draft will be negatively affected due to cool or prematurely cooling gases from the fire]. There are two reasons people use double-walled or even insulated pipe. One is that it is much, much safer; the other is that the insulated nature of the passage keeps the "smoke" hotter until it emerges from the top of the chimney and that not only assists adequate drafting but also lessens the condensing of the crud inside the pipe. 

You will find that you will have to clean your pipe quite frequently, if you use single-wall, regular stovepipe outdoors and that you will probably have to replace this pipe every two or three years due to its corroding out. I can almost guarantee that. 

The insulated, double-walled pipe is quite expensive, but mine has been in operation for over 25 yr. I have had to replace no parts at all in that time and it is still in great condition today. Also, and I do burn seasoned wood, in all those years I have checked the pipe yearly but never had to clean it out. Never. 

Previous to this house, I lived in an old miner's shack for ten years. It had a chimney made of the cheap, black steel pipe and I had to replace it every year. It wasn't much money, but it would rust and corrode out in one burning season. Also, I had to clean it out every three or four weeks, a mess and another big chore. It was a rental place, and I wasn't willing to pay for good pipe, which I would have had to do since the owner did nothing to the place. Part of my rent was fixing and repairing windows, shingles, etc.


----------



## Pagey (Nov 5, 2010)

Bottom line: it's not safe.  Single wall has a CTC (clearance to combustibles) of 18".  It will also lose integrity over time, much faster than Class A chimney sections.  It won't keep flue gases hot enough to prevent creosote buildup.


----------



## begreen (Nov 5, 2010)

Three issues here: functionality, code and most importantly - safety. 

The flue is going to want to be heading uphill as soon and as much as possible. Elbows add considerable resistance to draft. Too many of them and the flue won't draw. They are also creosote pockets. So try to eliminate as many as is practical. There is also fire code to consider. Your insurance company certainly will. Code is about safety, mostly about clearances, but also about keeping the flue warm enough so that creosote accumulation is minimized. Single wall pipe gets very hot. It needs to be at least 18" away from any combustible surface. Double-wall connector pipe has a clearance of 6". As soon as a wall or floor penetration is made, you need to go to class A pipe which is clearance rated at 2". Note, for the stove, 36" in each direction will be the clearance requirement unless it has been UL tested to closer clearances. 

I suspect the OP question is about money. If so, ask yourself what the cost will be if there is a loss due to fire? What if the loss are expensive tools? What if that loss is human? Things to think about.


----------



## jeff_t (Nov 5, 2010)

Some friends bought a house over the summer, and I got to check out the previous owner's similar garage install. Three feet up, 90 into a 24" section of class A thru a tight fitting hole in the OSB and vinyl siding, then horizontal for another six feet under a lean to on the back of the garage, then a 90 up. No verical pipe, just terminated in a 90. The horizontal run was supported by a strategically placed piece of plumber's tape. 

Wish I had taken some pictures. Kinda sounds like what you want to do. Once you see it it's pretty scary.


----------



## gapman789 (Nov 5, 2010)

Guys, thanks for the great info.

Where to start....The garage would only be heated periodically throughout the winter.  Maybe once a month, for a week at a time, or a couple of days a week.
My occupation is concrete construction so I'm going to have alot of down time this winter.  Which gives me time to work on my roadracing motorcycles.  End of the racing season maintenance basically.

Money is an issue but so is safety.  Because of the limited time that I will actually be spending in the garage during the cold months, it's hard to justify spending $700+ for double wall pipe to make a chimney out of.

I won't be storing any gas, paints, thinners, etc...of that nature in the garage.  I do have another small shed for that.
There are (4) motorcycles in the garage though.

The creosote issue is what I was missing as far as the heat/gases had to remain hot until escape from the stack to prevent creosote build-up.  I couldn't find out why regular black stove pipe couldn't be used as a chimney.  Now I understand.

I also understand the issue with too many elbows.  Like I said, I would have an elbow coming out of the stove to turn the pipe upwards, then another elbow to get the pipe horizontal and thru the wall, where I would need a 3' double wall pipe going thru the wall, then another elbow outside the wall to complete the stack 2-3 ft. above the peak of the roof.

So, from what I gather from all this info is that I can use stove pipe for the chimney but it is not recommended.
I don't mind the extra maintenance involved in cleaning the pipe.  With the minimal use that I would be using the stove, I'm not so sure I would have to clean it as often as some would think.
I understand that seasoned wood also cuts down on creosote deposits.

The roof is made of metal, corrugated?  It has 'ribs' so to speak and is quite thick.  I do no want to cut a hole in it, so that's why I was going through the wall.

Here's pics of the garage.  The stove would be on the backside.  No windows or doors on the backwall.  
The stove will be just about where the red motorcycle is  and 5'-6' from the backwall.

Am I missing anything?  Again, thanks for the great info.


----------



## SteveKG (Nov 5, 2010)

I understand why you would want to avoid cutting thru the roofing. However, there are specially designed boots for attaching to corrugated roofing for just this situation, and they work very well. You would only have the one elbow then, coming out the back of your stove and the rest a straight, simple shot up to the top. Put in some guy wires to secure the chimney, and you are in business. Very simple, no going thru the back wall and up past eaves, etc. 

Might want to reconsider...this would not be a huge mental job for you as a contractor, you must have some construction smarts already.


----------



## gapman789 (Nov 5, 2010)

jeff_t said:
			
		

> Some friends bought a house over the summer, and I got to check out the previous owner's similar garage install. Three feet up, 90 into a 24" section of class A thru a tight fitting hole in the OSB and vinyl siding, then horizontal for another six feet under a lean to on the back of the garage, then a 90 up. No verical pipe, just terminated in a 90. The horizontal run was supported by a strategically placed piece of plumber's tape.
> 
> Wish I had taken some pictures. Kinda sounds like what you want to do. Once you see it it's pretty scary.



LOL, yeah, sounds about right.  
I'm in the construction biz, so I can build 'stuff'.  I'm not trying to completely hack this thing in.

I keep thinking that there was a time when there was no double wall or Class A pipe.
And the early settlers managed just fine...


----------



## humpin iron (Nov 5, 2010)

.......There was also a time when a piece of scrapwood was used as a bullfloat........How much to replace those bikes and all the other stuff.......ya know early racers wore jeans and tee shirts, not that expensive leather suit hangin on the wall....they managed.
Do it right or don't do it


----------



## gapman789 (Nov 5, 2010)

SteveKG said:
			
		

> I understand why you would want to avoid cutting thru the roofing. However, there are specially designed boots for attaching to corrugated roofing for just this situation, and they work very well. You would only have the one elbow then, coming out the back of your stove and the rest a straight, simple shot up to the top. Put in some guy wires to secure the chimney, and you are in business. Very simple, no going thru the back wall and up past eaves, etc.
> 
> Might want to reconsider...this would not be a huge mental job for you as a contractor, you must have some construction smarts already.



Yea, I have reconsidered the option of going thru the roof.  That was my original intention.  There is no ceiling, only rafters, then OSB, then the corrugated roof.
In additon to simplifying the install, I would then only need a 3'-4' double wall coming out of the roof, correct?  I could use stove pipe all the way up to the roof?  Or is double wall again recommended to run all the way up from the stove thru the roof?

Half of the garage that you see in the pic, is insulated and has a plywood wall.  The other half is not unsulated. ONly 2x4 studs with CELOTEX brown board on the outside, and then wrapped with wood lap siding.


----------



## Later (Nov 5, 2010)

I once had a neighbor that used stove pipe as his chimney and finally realized that, after his third annual chimney fire, that it wasn't a good idea. The wrath of the local FD helped  make him understand.


----------



## certified106 (Nov 5, 2010)

On a side note nice SV. Sold mine last year and man do I miss it!


----------



## Backwoods Savage (Nov 5, 2010)

Welcome to the forum gapman789.


Some great advice has been given. I will only add that if and when you do this, the horizontal section must have some rise. 1/4" per foot of horizontal is the minimum. You might do much better with a couple of 45's rather than the 90's.


----------



## rdust (Nov 5, 2010)

gapman789 said:
			
		

> In additon to simplifying the install, I would then only need a 3'-4' double wall coming out of the roof, correct?



Class A chimney needs to be used to go through and above the roof.


----------



## rijim (Nov 5, 2010)

Might want to check codes before installing stove in a garage.  I think NFPA standards don't allow stoves in any garage; if your state adopted the NFPA Standard as a code then you may have a problem with inspectors and insurance company.

May be worth checking,
Jim


----------



## CTYank (Nov 6, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Three issues here: functionality, code and most importantly - safety.
> 
> The flue is going to want to be heading uphill as soon and as much as possible. Elbows add considerable resistance to draft. Too many of them and the flue won't draw. They are also creosote pockets. So try to eliminate as many as is practical. There is also fire code to consider. Your insurance company certainly will. Code is about safety, mostly about clearances, but also about keeping the flue warm enough so that creosote accumulation is minimized. Single wall pipe gets very hot. It needs to be at least 18" away from any combustible surface. Double-wall connector pipe has a clearance of 6". As soon as a wall or floor penetration is made, you need to go to class A pipe which is clearance rated at 2". Note, for the stove, 36" in each direction will be the clearance requirement unless it has been UL tested to closer clearances.
> 
> I suspect the OP question is about money. If so, ask yourself what the cost will be if there is a loss due to fire? What if the loss are expensive tools? What if that loss is human? Things to think about.



What he said ^^^.

IME, single-wall outside a structure typically has so much pyroligneous acid (aka "creosote") condensing that it drools the stuff at joints, and the stuff literally eats away the steel of the pipe. IOW very bad idea.


----------



## gapman789 (Nov 6, 2010)

CTYank said:
			
		

> BeGreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But if I ran the chimney straight up thru the roof, would it be ok to used single wall black pipe straight up from the stove toward the roof, and then have the double wall or Class A pipe going thru the roof and above?


----------



## Pagey (Nov 6, 2010)

Single wall inside is fine, just try to keep the run to 10' or less for optimal performance.  Then you make the transition to Class A double wall at the ceiling support.


----------



## stevetford (Nov 6, 2010)

With toys like that in the garage, I would have the stove going 24/7. Just thought I would add that as everything else has been covered. Good luck with the install and next racing season.


----------



## gapman789 (Nov 6, 2010)

stevetford said:
			
		

> With toys like that in the garage, I would have the stove going 24/7. Just thought I would add that as everything else has been covered. Good luck with the install and next racing season.



Thanks for the good luck.  Been racing off and on for 16 yrs.  I can't get away from it....yet.
I've thought about keeping it heated all winter long as well.
I've looked into overhead propane heaters, etc...The problem is, only half the garage is insulated. It wouldn't take much for me to insulate and hang OSB on the walls. The roof is wide open though. No ceiling. Just rafters and the roof.
Wood is free.  I got the stove for cheap.  So I figure heating with wood, would be the most cost efficient. Besides, I enjoy cutting wood and being outside.  The wood stove would just be another reason for me to get out of the house and away from the ole lady..lol. j/k babe.

I winterized the bikes today just in case my stove plans fall through for now.  Getting in the low 20's the next couple nights.  In racing, you're not allowed anti-freeze in the bikes. Only distilled water and 'WATER WETTER'.  So, I had to get the water out of the bikes and put in 100% anti freeze.
FYI, anti freeze is more difficult to clean up on the track than oil that's why it is illegal to have in your racebike.

I'm not trying to keep the garage at 70 either.  Hell, give me 50, maybe 60 degrees and I'm good.
I wouldn't mind keeping the stove going 24/7 thru the cold months, unless it became too much trouble.

I'm beginning to lean toward going through the roof.  My employer/boss/friend has a galvanized double wall or triple pipe that sits on the roof. It has the cap and the base plate.
I'm not sure if I'm using the correct terminology. Base plate?


----------



## DonNH (Nov 6, 2010)

I did the same thing as a quick way to get heat in my detached garage for 1 season.  Finally had the garage doors installed in February and was looking to be able to heat it for the rest of the winter.  Had a used pc of 10" class A to use as a thimble through the wall.  Several sections of used metal roofing around the stove to protect the walls, etc.  Kept the stovepipe a couple feet from the outside wall for the run up, and a couple feet higher than the ridge.

Had to work to get draft, and got lots of condensation in the pipe - when running continuous would get a steady drip of nasty black water on the ground under the pipe.  

The following summer I kept my eye on Craigslist, and got a pretty good deal on some new class A pipe.
Ordered the miscellaneous extra pcs - spent about $800~900 total for 16' vertical run plus thru-wall pc, Tee & cap.

Definitely works better, no worries, no dripping.

Don


----------



## firefighterjake (Nov 8, 2010)

gapman789 said:
			
		

> jeff_t said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



HehHeh . . . there was also a time when the early settlers had wooden chimneys and many did just fine . . . but after a number of fires some folks caught on that maybe this wasn't such a great idea from a safety standpoint and made the change. 

By the way, welcome to the forum Gapman . . . sounds as though you have every intention to do things right . . . do things as inexpensively as possible (which is fine) . . . but not at the expense of safety.


----------



## SteveKG (Nov 8, 2010)

firefighterjake said:
			
		

> gapman789 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Few yr. back, I had occasion to do some research in local newspapers around here going back into the mid-nineteenth century. While I perused these old pages, I realized that I kept coming upon stories of stove-caused fires. Of course, back then, in this area of cold winters, every single structure had a stove or more. If a cause was given, it was usually something to do with the stovepipe or chimney. Stovepipes running thru wood walls, wood roofs, etc.


----------



## gapman789 (Nov 28, 2010)

Thanks for all the info.
Stove still isn't installed.  Busy with work, and still undecided on how to do this.  The biggest question is to go straight up thru the roof or go thru the wall and then up.
I've also been trying to find some stove pipe for cheap.  No luck thus far. 

I did find this though.  Is this a good deal?  I was hesitant to put it on here in fear of somebody snatching it out from under me, but oh well.
If I ran stovepipe up to the exterior wall, then a double/triple wall pipe going thru the wall, then the pipe in the ad should get me above my garage. Or damn close.
http://cincinnati.craigslist.org/mat/2071610725.html


----------



## DonNH (Nov 29, 2010)

Looks like a good deal, especially where it appears to include the support bracket, cap & clamps.

A few things to check on:

1) make sure the parts are in good condition

2) I can't tell the brand from the photo - make sure it's a brand/type that you can get additional parts for.

For example, when I did my chimney last year, I spent:

$500 for 20' of 6" Simpson Duravent ($100 each for 5 4' pcs) unused from a guy on CL.  Would have been $167 each new, I believe.

Had to order:  (prices rough - best guess at remembering)

Tee  $125 
cap   $50  
Thimble  $35
2' pipe for thru the wall/thimble  $80
clamps  $30

I made the bracket for the tee, as a standard one wouldn't have worked in my situation.

Already had the inside stovepipe - was just converting the outside run from plain stovepipe to class A.

Don


----------



## burleymike (Nov 29, 2010)

I know a guy that got some 1/4" 8" diameter well casing and welded it to the top of his shop stove and ran it straight up through the roof.  This is an all steel building so no combustible framing around the pipe on the ceiling.  His method of cleaning the chimney is to let it burn out when it catches fire.  I think he is nuts but he thinks it is a great idea.  That CL deal looks good to me.


----------



## Dakotas Dad (Nov 29, 2010)

While I am all about the wood stove.. 

When I work on my track bikes in the winter, and or her Cobra, I use a torpedo heater to warm it up. $200 and done. You got 120v in there it looks like, just open the door a bit for airflow.. or in my case, cooling, because I got my torpedo at a garage sale and it will flat cook me out of the garage if closed up or run for real long. 75Kbtu's.. lol.


----------



## RedGuy (Nov 29, 2010)

Dakotas Dad said:
			
		

> While I am all about the wood stove..
> 
> When I work on my track bikes in the winter, and or her Cobra, I use a torpedo heater to warm it up. $200 and done. You got 120v in there it looks like, just open the door a bit for airflow.. or in my case, cooling, because I got my torpedo at a garage sale and it will flat cook me out of the garage if closed up or run for real long. 75Kbtu's.. lol.



X2 I use a propane torpedo in my barn, easy, clean, and fast. Cost me $100 at home depot plus the tank, but I already had a few of them for my Travel Trailer so I just use them. Some day though I'd like to fix my overhead Molene heater, just need to take it down and figure out what's locked up on it. I only heat my barn periodically and when I do I want it warm now, it would cost WAY too much to heat my barn continuosly on propane, but for the amount of time I heat it up it wouldn't be cost effective or convenent to use wood for my purpose.


----------



## gapman789 (Nov 29, 2010)

I've several torpedo heaters, and propane top hat heaters available to me. 
I was wanting to keep somewhat of a continuous fire/heat going during the winter months.
I'm in the concrete construction biz so once it turns cold and stays cold/snowy, I'll have alot of time off.
And as you can see from the pics of the garage, all my days off will be spent in the garage working on the bikes for the upcoming race season.
I also dabble in buying and selling bikes at auctions, fixing them and reselling or parting them out.

I will be in my garage for 8 hrs a day and then some for maybe 2 months at a time....I feel that wood, would be the cheapest way to go.

I also don't want the bikes to see below freezing temps for any extended length of time. Yes they are winterized, batteries out, etc...

My prior residence had an attached garage so heat wasn't a problem.  This is my lst winter with this unattached garage.


----------



## RedGuy (Nov 29, 2010)

In that case, esspecially if you have wood availible, wood will obviously be the cheapest way to go. A 30lb tank will last me about 20 hours with my heater, so at $24 to fill it it'd cost around $200 a month to heat that way. For me though I'll probably go through one maybe 2 tanks a month if I have a big project.


----------



## spirilis (Nov 29, 2010)

Welcome to the forum, I got nothing to add beyond considering used stuff (craigslist et al, but someone touched on that already).

I do have a question though--does that "WATER WETTER" stuff actually work?


----------



## RedGuy (Nov 29, 2010)

spirilis said:
			
		

> I do have a question though--does that "WATER WETTER" stuff actually work?



It does! I used it in my old Jeep Wagoneer when I was towing a trailer through the mountains. I was over heating badly, found this stuff in an auto parts store and it brough my temps right back in line.


----------



## gapman789 (Nov 29, 2010)

spirilis said:
			
		

> Welcome to the forum, I got nothing to add beyond considering used stuff (craigslist et al, but someone touched on that already).
> 
> I do have a question though--does that "WATER WETTER" stuff actually work?



Yes, WATER WETTER does work.  
In most motorcycle roadracing organizations, anti-freeze is not allowed in the bikes.  The reason being that anti-freeze is almost impossible to get off the track surface compared to oil.
We, racers, use distilled water and WATER WETTER instead of anti-freeze.  

At this time of year, I have to drain/flush all the bikes and I put in 100% antifreeeze.
I also take the batteries out and bring them inside.
The oil is changed, no matter how fresh it may be, and I fill the entire crankcase with oil (overfill) so that as much of the rods and crank are submersed in oil.  That is done to prevent any corrosion that may happen.
Fresh oil is put in because used oil breaks down and becomes acidic and the oil will naturally have moisture in it from normal use of the motor, which can all lead to rust if the motor doesn't run for a few months.


----------



## gapman789 (Nov 30, 2010)

So I found another ad for stove pipe/chimney pipe.
About 20' of double wall insulated pipe, cleanout/elbow, cap and a 3' section to go through the wall.
This was used as a 'thru-the-wall' setup, so I've decided that's how I'm doing the garage.  I just don't want to cut a hole in the metal, corrugated roof.  Plus, I'd have to buy more  pieces to make it a 'thru-the-roof' install.
I got all the pipe in the pictures for $175.  The AURORA stove with dual fans was $100.  Dog was free.

Hopefully I'll have her up and smoking this weekend.


----------



## RedGuy (Nov 30, 2010)

Awesome! That's probably at least $600 in pipe brand new, good score.


----------



## Dakotas Dad (Nov 30, 2010)

Look, I am not some kind of prude or snob, but free or not, I don't think you should let that dog smoke, this weekend or any other..

 ;-)


----------



## Nonprophet (Nov 30, 2010)

gapman789 said:
			
		

> Guys, thanks for the great info.
> 
> Where to start....The garage would only be heated periodically throughout the winter.  Maybe once a month, for a week at a time, or a couple of days a week.
> My occupation is concrete construction so I'm going to have alot of down time this winter.  Which gives me time to work on my roadracing motorcycles.  End of the racing season maintenance basically.
> ...



I know some folks won't like my answer, but the truth is that there are LOTS of folks using single wall chimney pipe just fine with no issues. We used it in our Yurt for two years. We were toasty warm and I had very little creosote buildup even though we had over 14' of pipe outside. I installed a clean out T at the bottom with a cap so I could regularly inspect the chimney, but there was never more than 1/4" or so of the dry crumbly stuff.....I would burn a nice hot fire once a week or so to keep the pipe clean. The only real downside IMHO is that the single wall pipe doesn't last long outdoors, 3-6 before it rusts to the point of needing replacing. We don't have our Yurt insured, so being up to code really wasn't an issue for us.

We also have several neighbors with smaller cabins and they are all using single wall pipe outdoors, and they have been for many, many years......


NP


----------



## gapman789 (Dec 1, 2010)

Dakotas Dad said:
			
		

> Look, I am not some kind of prude or snob, but free or not, I don't think you should let that dog smoke, this weekend or any other..
> 
> ;-)



lol. Good point.  Especially since I've never smoked in 41yrs.


----------



## gapman789 (Dec 11, 2010)

Well, here it is....Just did the install today....No fire as of yet...wanted to check in here lst and I had a question or two for yas.

First, notice the pipe going from the stove to the wall...I know it looks like stove pipe going thru the wall, but there is 4" of double wall insulated pipe on the inside of the wall plus 4" of double wall pipe going thru the wall, and that 12" piece of stove pipe is just being used to give me 4' of clearance from the wall...If I removed that inside black ring, you'd be able to see the double wall pipe.

Question is, is the stove pipe an issue for being over top of the double wall?  Or should I get an 8" to 6" connector coming out of the stove with 6" stove pipe instead of 8" and then meet up with the double wall pipe going thru the wall?  Make sense?
The more I think about it, common sense tells me that the stove pipe must be connected to the inner wall of the double wall insulated pipe.

And, does the height of my chimney look ok?  It is very close to 10' away from the roof if I measure over horizontally from the cap to the roof.
Also, that is 16"x16" of a heavy galvanized steel on either side of the wall where the pipe goes thru.
I also removed all the wall insulation in that 16" area.

And, lol, I realize my support under the cleanout isn't optimal..but it is decorative stone, right?
There has to be some type of support at that 90 degree .  I'll have to rig another support to move the block to get to the cleanout when the time comes.

How's it look to the pros?


----------



## gapman789 (Dec 11, 2010)

Comments, suggestions on my install?  Anyone?  How's it look?


----------

