# Rim Joist Insulation



## DBNH22 (Oct 15, 2013)

I have an unheated, open basement in which the rim joists are not insulated.  I want to insulate them but wasn't sure what the best way to do it is.  At first I thought I'd use the spray foam and do it myself but the materials are expensive and I've read that you need a respirator an dmachine and the whole nine yards.

Now I'm thinking it might be better to use the rigid board.  I understand you still have to foam it in place.  has anyone done this?  Would you use a can of great stuff for something like this?  I was thinking that (2) two inch pieces of rigid foam should get me to roughly R14 which from what I heard is reccomended for rim joist insulation in most areas.

Any thoughts?


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## velvetfoot (Oct 15, 2013)

I did that.  I cut the foam into blocks and banged them in there and caulked them in there.  I'd recommend using the great stuff only with an applicator gun because you can't just start and stop another day with the can.  Better yet, get a quote for a guy to come in and spray the foam in there.


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## DBNH22 (Oct 15, 2013)

I don't want to pay labor costs if I can do it myself with the rigid and get roughly the same performance while saving some money.

I called aroud and the price on the 2 inch rigid foam boards (4x8 sheets) was all over the place.

One company said 1.08 and another said 38.64 and some were in between.  What's with the huge price difference?


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## Ashful (Oct 15, 2013)

Sprayed foam provides a zero draft and vapor barrier, along with superior insulation.  Foam board can be cut to fit, but eliminating all draft is a difficult challenge.  It might be worth getting a quote or two on spray foam for the rim, before ruling it out.

I have a spray foam job scheduled for next week, at my place.  $1264 to do a wall adjoining attic space, which is almost entirely inaccessible.  My choices for insulating this existing wall were either spray foam, or tear out the drywall to hang bats, and then replace the drywall.  I went with the spray foam.


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## velvetfoot (Oct 15, 2013)

I got the foam boards at HD.  38 sounds more like it.  Depending on how deep you make it, you could estimate how much you'll need.  
I wouldn't recommend my pounding it in and caulking method if you go that way.  Get a dispenser for the great stuff and cut them small.


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## DBNH22 (Oct 15, 2013)

Joful said:


> Sprayed foam provides zero draft and vapor barrier, along with superior insulation.  Foam board can be cut to fit, but eliminating all draft is a difficult challenge.  It might be worth getting a quote or two on spray foam for the rim, before ruling it out.
> 
> I have a spray foam job scheduled for next week, at my place.  $1264 to do a wall adjoining attic space, which is almost entirely inaccessible.  My choices for insulating this existing wall were either spray foam, or tear out the drywall to hang bats, and then replace the drywall.  I went with the spray foam.




$1300 is a lot of money.  IEverything I've read says that if you take the time to do it correctly you can achieve just as good performance with the rigid board and the can foam.  If it cost $1300 to have it done w/ spray foam by a company compared to 300-400 to do it myself with the rigid and I actually getting my 900 -1000 worth by spending more money?


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## velvetfoot (Oct 15, 2013)

You should see what it might cost as far as materials go, maybe it'll be more than you think, or not.


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## Ashful (Oct 15, 2013)

I did.  The materials were over $700 for DIY spray foam, for the amount of area I needed to cover.  In my case (unique situation), with the space being almost impossible to access, I knew the job would come out less than splendidly, if I tried to DIY it.

Back to the OP... your choice.  Just throwing out another option you may want to consider.  DIY is not free, when you figure in material, and what other thing you could've been doing with your time spent.  I DIY most stuff (re-taping drywall, pulling wiring, putting up baseboard and chair rail with my evenings this week), but some stuff I contract out (HVAC install, spray foam, wall-to-wall carpet, etc.).  It all comes down to your time / money balance, and everyone has a different tipping point.


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## DBNH22 (Oct 15, 2013)

Joful said:


> I did.  The materials were over $700 for DIY spray foam, for the amount of area I needed to cover.  In my case (unique situation), with the space being almost impossible to access, I knew the job would come out less than splendidly, if I tried to DIY it.
> 
> Back to the OP... your choice.  Just throwing out another option you may want to consider.  DIY is not free, when you figure in material, and what other thing you could've been doing with your time spent.  I DIY most stuff (re-taping drywall, pulling wiring, putting up baseboard and chair rail with my evenings this week), but some stuff I contract out (HVAC install, spray foam, wall-to-wall carpet, etc.).  It all comes down to your time / money balance, and everyone has a different tipping point.




Good points.  I think I will call a few contractors just to get pricing on it and see what they say.


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## velvetfoot (Oct 15, 2013)

I meant Dana should check the cost of the foam boards.


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## DBNH22 (Oct 15, 2013)

velvetfoot said:


> I meant Dana should check the cost of the foam boards.




I have called a bunch of places and they do some to be kind of expensive.  I'm waiting to hear back from the spray foam contractors.


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## velvetfoot (Oct 15, 2013)

I meant figuring out how many pieces you had to cut out, for whatever thickness you wanted, and then figuring in the waste too, and calculating the number of boards you need, and multiplying by the price per board.


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## billb3 (Oct 15, 2013)

Dana B said:


> I don't want to pay labor costs if I can do it myself with the rigid and get roughly the same performance while saving some money.
> 
> I called aroud and the price on the 2 inch rigid foam boards (4x8 sheets) was all over the place.
> 
> One company said 1.08 and another said 38.64 and some were in between.  What's with the huge price difference?



Likely the difference between EPS, XPS. ISO and then some are foil-faced.
Animals might not chew through the foil and then again they might- the foil is supposed to also have some extra weathering protection.
I did my sister's rim joints with foil faced XPS from Home Depot and  put foil on the cut surfaces for the first few rim joint bays and then decided that was too much work and just cut the panels a little under size and foamed them in and got it done and over with. Her rim joints were so poorly made  there were places I could stick my fingers outside easily. Her basement ceilings were mice and chipmunk hotels.


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## Swedishchef (Oct 15, 2013)

+1 on spray foam.

When I built my house, i had calculated the cost to put 2 inches of XPS on my basement walls. The pannels are 2X8. I would have needed to ensure the surfance was smooth, purchase anchors, SEVERAL tubes of PL300 (to ensure the board sticks to the wall preventing air from getting between the foam and wall), tuck tape, etc. I was going to cut out smaller foam blocks and goodstuff around them. I did the math: it would have cost me $2200 in materials. I figure it would have taken me over 20  hours (my house perimeter is 166 linear feet). I called a spray foam company and they quoted me $3400 taxed inc. SOLD.

They came and taped everything up. They sprayed 1.5 inches of high density foam everywhere and were completely DONE in 2.5 hours. They charged me $2.25/ sq ft. They calculated the rim joists to be about 1 sq ft. So to do only the rim joists would have cost me about $380. And it is VERY air tight. When I open my basement entrance door, I feel the vaccum it creates.

In my view some things are just worth paying others to do if the price is right. It's like an oil change: $40 at the garage and it's done in 15 minutes or: $25 for a gallon of oil and $10 for the filter + 1 hour of me cursing and trying to get under my car to get it done....

Andrew


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## semipro (Oct 16, 2013)

OP,
I have done what you've described in my basement. 
I also put together a spreadsheet with foam prices based on volume (not R value), materials only.  
Contractor installed foam was the most expensive. 
DIY spray foam was next, but way more than DIY foam boards and not that much less than the contractor option. 
DIY using foam boards and a foam application gun was by far the least expensive. 

If foam contracting prices come down a little I'd probably go that way. 
Until then, the foam DIY options is my preferred choice.


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## DBNH22 (Oct 16, 2013)

I spoke with an insulation contractor yesterday and he said the going rate to do a basement rim josit job would be anywherr from 300 - 500 or a little more depending on the area.  That seems like a very reasonable price to me.   I think that would actually be cheaper than doing the spray foam myself from the pricing I've seen for it.  The only problem is  that he is two hours away from me and does ot travel far for small jobs.


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## Ashful (Oct 16, 2013)

Dana B said:


> I spoke with an insulation contractor yesterday and he said the going rate to do a basement rim josit job would be anywherr from 300 - 500 or a little more depending on the area.  That seems like a very reasonable price to me.   I think that would actually be cheaper than doing the spray foam myself from the pricing I've seen for it.  The only problem is  that he is two hours away from me and doe snot travel far for small jobs.


Similar here, with finding one, but I suspect there are some spray foam contractors near you.  Send me your zip code, and I'll Angie's List a few.


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## velvetfoot (Oct 16, 2013)

He might eventually come out your way.


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## DBNH22 (Oct 16, 2013)

Joful said:


> Similar here, with finding one, but I suspect there are some spray foam contractors near you.  Send me your zip code, and I'll Angie's List a few.




I already searched Angie's list and there were a few.  Some got some bad reviews and I have left massages with others but received no return calls. 
It's such a shame that the less than reputable contractors tarnish the image of the honest ones that want to provide a decent service at a reasonable price.

Since the guy that quoted me 500 got some good reviews I am going to attempt to talk him into maybe doing my rim joist when he's already scheduled to be in my area for a larger job.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 16, 2013)

Dana B said:


> Some got some bad reviews and I have left massages with others but received no return calls.



Sorry, but that is just too funny.


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## Ashful (Oct 16, 2013)

Dana B said:


> It's such a shame that the less than reputable contractors tarnish the image of the honest ones that want to provide a decent service at a reasonable price.


Since moving from a smaller house to a larger house, I've encountered several instances of contractors quoting me MUCH more to do the same exact job I had done at the last house.  I guess they try to gauge how much money you might be willing to hand them, based on your house, the ironic thing being that I actually had much more cash to spend when I lived in the smaller house... now it's tied up in equity.


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## Swedishchef (Oct 16, 2013)

Joful said:


> Since moving from a smaller house to a larger house, I've encountered several instances of contractors quoting me MUCH more to do the same exact job I had done at the last house.  I guess they try to gauge how much money you might be willing to hand them, based on your house, the ironic thing being that I actually had much more cash to spend when I lived in the smaller house... now it's tied up in equity.


 
What is the going rate for a carpenter your way??


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## Ashful (Oct 16, 2013)

I do most of my own carpentry, but have hired one company do help with refitting old window frames, and their rate is as follows:

Master:  $65/hr
Journey:  $47/hr
Apprentice:  $35'ish (can't remember exactly)

I think these rates are WAY down, versus 10 years ago.  For example, my mason is currently at $65/hour.  In 2005 he was at $105/hour, and still turning jobs away.


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## DBNH22 (Oct 18, 2013)

I've called around and most prices to have a contractor do the spray foam seems to be around 700-800 give or take a little.  That definitely seems reasonable.

The one thing I'd like to ask those of you who've had your rim joist insulated is what was the difference?  Did you find that your energy costs dropped?  Did the house feel warmer?


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## Swedishchef (Oct 18, 2013)

Unfortunately I can't attest to any difference: my house was a new build and I got it done right away.

However, one would assume it would save a fair amount of money. Think about it: heat rises. If heat can escape or cold air leaks are coming in the basement from on top of the walls (where the rim joist is located), it would be tough to heat. I know that my house ends with 2 @ 2X12s sitting on a gasket on the foundation. Therefore, the concrete is pretty cold and there's only 3 inches of wood keeping the cool air from entering (R value of about 3). I think it would be an effective way to save but I could be wrong.

I am sure others who have had both uninsulated and insulated will chime in shortly

Andrew


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## Ashful (Oct 18, 2013)

I know one co-worker who did it in his 1971'ish house, and swears it made an enormous difference, but have no first-hand experience from which I can speak about rim joist insulation.  I imagine it would have to make a very big difference in how cold your floors feel, on the first floor.


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## semipro (Oct 18, 2013)

Dana B said:


> I've called around and most prices to have a contractor do the spray foam seems to be around 700-800 give or take a little.  That definitely seems reasonable.
> 
> The one thing I'd like to ask those of you who've had your rim joist insulated is what was the difference?  Did you find that your energy costs dropped?  Did the house feel warmer?


Sorry, no good metrics to go by other than it felt warmer.


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## drewmo (Oct 18, 2013)

OP - Does NH offer any rebates on such work? Might make the pros doing it look a little more appealing. I believe Maine, through Efficiency Maine, offers $600 back on rim joist air sealing.


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## woodgeek (Oct 19, 2013)

Dana, based on other airsealing I have done, I would attest that beyond energy savings, there is noise, pest, dust and allergen reduction, reduction in summer humidity and increase in winter humidity.  Before I couldn't get the winter humidity up, now keeping it at 30% or so keeps us all a lot healthier.  Many previously creaky floors now don't creak (caused by swings in outdoor humidity).  Overall, great effects, like getting a new house.

Cons: some rooms might get less comfortable, requiring you to rebalance your HVAC system.


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## Ehouse (Oct 19, 2013)

Something you might try, (I have not done it), set your table saw to 45* and bevel the ends of the pieces of foam.  Cut them slightly oversize longways and make them tight as you dare top to bottom then friction fit them in.  If you have fairly uniform spaces, you can rip them all in advance and the bevel will give you some leeway side to side.  The friction fit will allow you to also place some loose insulation in the bay first to increase R value and bring the work out toward you for easier caulking top and bottom.  That's my theory and I'm stickin' to it.


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## Ashful (Oct 20, 2013)

I can't imagine table-sawing foam board.  Must be almost as messy as getting tarred and feathered.  If I can't knife it with a utility knife, I hot-knife it with a resistance wire on a bow saw frame.


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## Ehouse (Oct 20, 2013)

Joful said:


> I can't imagine table-sawing foam board.  Must be almost as messy as getting tarred and feathered.  If I can't knife it with a utility knife, I hot-knife it with a resistance wire on a bow saw frame.




A small panel saw works well too.  You could set up a stationary hot wire and run your bevels on that.


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## velvetfoot (Oct 20, 2013)

I cut a lot of foam boards on a table saw: it's not so bad.


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## TradEddie (Oct 21, 2013)

velvetfoot said:


> I cut a lot of foam boards on a table saw: it's not so bad.


Me too, not nearly as bad as I expected.

For my rim joists I started with regular latex caulk, sealing the joints as best I could, often smearing caulk onto a gloved hand reaching far into inaccessible bays, then I put foam board or XPS cut slightly small or friction fit. On a cold night I went around with the IR thermometer and any bays that were still noticeably colder or showed a draft with an incense stick got another bead of caulk around the foam board. I then added Roxul on top in case anyone in the future would say it wasn't up to code. It took many, many hours but I'm very pleased with the results, and surely less than $200 in materials.

TE


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## peakbagger (Oct 22, 2013)

Check into this program http://nhsaves.com/residential/retrofit.html They will figure out the best payback items and pay for the half the cost up to $4000. I got a lot of work done including rim joists. The utility also audits the work so the contractors have an incentive to make sure the work is done right.


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## DamienBricka (Nov 9, 2013)

Dana B. When I bought my house 13 years ago I had no insulation in the wall and a R19 in the ceiling. I needed to open up the walls to redo the wiring. I debated a long time between Icynene (foam) and fireglass batt. I decided to go with Icynene. I went from paying $225 a month on the gas budget plan to nothing. I went all electric since the furnace was shot. I pay around $75 a month on budget with electricity. I remember the day the insulation was sprayed on it was 123/23/2002. That morning I was freezing with a 100,000BTU furnace to being to warm that first night. I am now a strong believer of sprayed foam and yes it will pay back in no time. My experience.

Damien


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## EJL923 (Nov 20, 2013)

I think rim joists is my next project.  I just used tight fitting foam boards in my basement window bays.  They are single pane swing open, which are very leaky and cold.  Last year i placed fiberglass bats in the window which helped a bunch.  This year i used foam boards with removable caulk so i can take it out in summer.  Point, dont forget to check the health of those leaky windows too.


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## Ashful (Nov 20, 2013)

You insulated inside the windows?  If you're not providing a good vapor barrier, you're going to have lots of condensation on that cold glass.  Are the window frames wood or metal, and are you concerned about the paint / rust / rot?


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## EJL923 (Nov 20, 2013)

We shall see if there is any condensation, i don't think there will be.  I have seen people do this a lot.  There is nothing that will be damaged if it gets wet, and i can monitor from the outside throughout the season.  Both the window and the foam board is sealed from air leaks.


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## Ashful (Nov 20, 2013)

If it's air sealed, then no problem.  The rule of thumb is you need the outer vapor barrier (in this case, the original window) to be more leaky than your inner barrier (your foam and sealing), to avoid condensation.  Reverse this, and someone's getting wet.


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## DBNH22 (Nov 27, 2013)

I have shceduled a day to have the rim joists spray foamed.  I'm getting the 2lb closed cell sprayed on 3-4 inches thick for $860.  As long as everything goes well it should be a good deal.  Date is decmeber 12th.  I'll let you guys know how it goes.


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## DamienBricka (Nov 30, 2013)

Dana. What is the total length of the rim joist?  And are they 10 or 12 inches high? When I did my house 10 years ago I paid $3 a square foot 3 thick.


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## DBNH22 (Dec 2, 2013)

DamienBricka said:


> Dana. What is the total length of the rim joist?  And are they 10 or 12 inches high? When I did my house 10 years ago I paid $3 a square foot 3 thick.




I don't know what the measurments are but i've started pulling back some of the fiberglass batts that were stuffed in the joists in the basement and I can feel cold air coming in.  The floor above the basement has been very cold the past few days.  I have one of those picture windows that extends out over the foundation over bare ground.  I looked underneath it in the basement and there's a pretty significant cold draft rushing in.  The sorry R19 batt is no match for mother nature in this little area.  The batt has become pure blaxck due to the air passing through it.  I'm chomping at the bit to have the job done.  Im hoping it will make a huge difference.  Did you notice a big difference when you had your's done Damien?

I've also noticed lots of mouse droppings.  I'm hoping that the spray foam pretty mcuh seals up all their acceess holes.


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## DamienBricka (Dec 2, 2013)

Hi Dana,
On December 23, 2002. I had the whole house sprayed with Icynene foam (If I had to redo it again I would use a dense foam). That day it was done it was very cold outside. I went from seeing my breath to being to warm. The 100,000BTU gas furnace that had to be replace was removed as well as all the duck work. I could not find a gas heater small enough for the house. So I went all electric. My electrical company had an energy audit done on the house and the door blower test showed that the house was very tight.
So yes you will see a difference.
Damien


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## DBNH22 (Dec 2, 2013)

What is Icynene?  I'm  getting the 2lb closed cell foam.  I'v been reading about the stack effect and how an uninsulated rim joist casues cold air to enter the basement and hot air to leave via the attic.  I'm hoping that when the rim joist is sprayed I will have much warmer first level floors, the temp throughout the whole house will be more uniform and stable, and that my energy costs will be significantly reduced.

I'm debating whether to add more fiberglass batts to my attic (currently have r30 which is most likely performing like R20) or rip the batts out and start from scratch with cellulose blown in to R50.  That's going to be a costly undertaking which would be next year at the earliest.


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## DamienBricka (Dec 2, 2013)

Icynene is an open cell foam. I would not recommend it. Closed cell foam is much better. Attic blown cellulose would be my choice for your situation.
I am working on the drawings of my next home. For that one I will be using SIP panels. That is several years down the line. 
No cold air coming thru the joist will make a big difference.
Damien


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## semipro (Dec 2, 2013)

Dana B said:


> What is Icynene? ....  I'v been reading about the stack effect and how an uninsulated rim joist casues cold air to enter the basement and hot air to leave via the attic.  I'm hoping that when the rim joist is sprayed I will have much warmer first level floors, the temp throughout the whole house will be more uniform and stable, and that my energy costs will be significantly reduced.
> 
> I'm debating whether to add more fiberglass batts to my attic (currently have r30 which is most likely performing like R20) or rip the batts out and start from scratch with cellulose blown in to R50...


There have been some good posts here about sealing up the attic.  Adding more fiberglass won't gain you much unless you seal the attic floor where wiring, plumbing, chimneys, etc. enter.   In general, thermal insulation is not very effective unless you minimize airflow through it.

Edit: also, I can't see any reason you can't blow cellulose over the existing fiberglass.  However, you'll likely need to pull up the what's there to install proper air sealing materials.


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## DBNH22 (Dec 2, 2013)

semipro said:


> There have been some good posts here about sealing up the attic.  Adding more fiberglass won't gain you much unless you seal the attic floor where wiring, plumbing, chimneys, etc. enter.   In general, thermal insulation is not very effective unless you minimize airflow through it.
> 
> Edit: also, I can't see any reason you can't blow cellulose over the existing fiberglass.  However, you'll likely need to pull up the what's there to install proper air sealing materials.




I've already air sealed the attic.  This spring I pulled up the batts, air sealed with some cans of Great Stuff, and replaced the batts.  Before I do anything in the attic with insulation I actually need to replace the baffles for the roof insulation.  The ones there now are cheapos and some of them are missing.  I need to get the kind that fold down into the joists so that they create a barrier between the soffit/ventilation space and the insulation.


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## Ashful (Dec 2, 2013)

Mice chew right thru spray foam, and ants love the stuff, treating it like a giant ant colony.  Make sure you have your rodent and insect issues fixed BEFORE using spray foam, or you'll regret the day the stuff was invented.


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## woodgeek (Dec 2, 2013)

Dana B said:


> I've already air sealed the attic.  This spring I pulled up the batts, air sealed with some cans of Great Stuff, and replaced the batts.  Before I do anything in the attic with insulation I actually need to replace the baffles for the roof insulation.  The ones there now are cheapos and some of them are missing.  I need to get the kind that fold down into the joists so that they create a barrier between the soffit/ventilation space and the insulation.



I airsealed my attic in 2009.  And then in 2010 I did it again.  In 2011 and 2012 I found still more I missed.  Then this summer I had some pros come in to finish the parts I couldn't reach.  I **think** its done now. 

A quick test to know if you are done....if is 20°F outside, is it below freezing in the attic??  Or not?

And most folks will jsut blow cellulose over batts...too expensive to rip out the old stuff, and then pay for extra cellulose.


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## midwestcoast (Dec 2, 2013)

The only reason I see to rip out old fiberglass batts in the attic would be to make air sealing easier/better since you can see everything all at once.  Otherwise you just pull back one batt, seal, replace…
I suppose if you have low eaves with little room to add blown-in on top then it could make sense to pull batts out there.

In other words if I you're cold just put on a sweater. No need to take your shirt off first.


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## DBNH22 (Dec 11, 2013)

Tomorrow is the day that my rim joists are getting done.  I can't wait.  It's been pretty cold as of late and the kitchen floors are like ice when walking on them without shoes.  I'll let you guys know how it goes.


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## wenger7446 (Dec 11, 2013)

Dana B said:


> Tomorrow is the day that my rim joists are getting done.  I can't wait.  It's been pretty cold as of late and the kitchen floors are like ice when walking on them without shoes.  I'll let you guys know how it goes.



Keep us updated. I want to do mine next year.


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## DBNH22 (Dec 13, 2013)

So I got home last night and checked it out.  it looks like they did a decent job.  Three inches of closed cell in each bay covering the side and top of each bay and coming down over the sill plate slightly.  It was not very windy last night but it was only 10 F outside and the floor felt noticably warmer or should I say less cold since it still doesn't feel warm.  Before the spray foam it was literally like walking on an ice rink.  Now it still feels cool but not cold.  I'm happy with that as it's much more bearable..  I'm debating wether to insulate the basement cieling with new R19 fiberglass batts or put some 4x8 XPS foam boards on the basement walls to get that floor a little warmer.  I'm leaning toward the foam boards on the walls.  The foam on the walls should make both the floor warmer and the basement whereas the batts on the ceiling would only serve to warm the floor.  Any thoughts on this?

As for the house itself maintaining temperature more easily and being at a more uniform temp, I've not been able to tell yet.  I think I'll have to observe this over the next week or so to see what difference if any there is to be found with regard to that.


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## TradEddie (Dec 14, 2013)

I'm considering XPS on my basement walls too, curious to hear opinions on this. What I do know is that finishing half of my basement, adding 400sqft of conditioned space to a 1900sqft house decreased my heating bills, so insulating those walls must help. 

TE


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## mithesaint (Dec 14, 2013)

Definitely insulate those walls with XPS.  I added foam to the walls as part of an ongoing basement finishing project, and it made a huge difference.  Even earlier in the week, with temps near 0 and windchills below 0, it never got below 62 degrees in the basement.  The basement is unheated, btw.  The only heat source is waste heat from a propane water heater and whatever heat a dehumidifier puts out.


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## Swedishchef (Dec 14, 2013)

+1 on putting insulation on the walls in the basement.

Don't forget that floors are rarely warm unless: 1- there is a heat source underneath (heated flooring) or 2 - The basement is heated and there is no insulation in the basement ceiling.


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