# A Call From Dead River



## roadking88 (Apr 14, 2014)

So i get a call from dead river Friday they are dropping my presidential contract because i have not bought oil from them in 2 years...for those of you that dont know what that is , it is a contract that covers all of the boiler parts including replacing the entire boiler if beyond repair...also comes with annual cleaning..well i bought 300 gallons for my domestic this year but bought it from cash energy which is much cheaper..well this pushes me even more to get off the oil grid for good...i boiled it down to on demand Rinnai, or a standard electric water heater with a timer..what you guys think?? i know the cost for on demand will be probably be triple the cost of standard water heater...consumer reports says that it will take 2o+ years to pay for the Rinnai ... but with on demand you will never run out of hot water that's for sure...


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## boo boo (Apr 14, 2014)

Dead River oil is one of the highest price per gallon around here also.
I thought of going to the electric water heater but have not pulled the trigger yet.


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## Luv2burnPellets (Apr 14, 2014)

I went with the Rinnai on demand.  Would only use oil if I left the house for more than a day or two.  Of course, with the Rinnai, I use propane.  But also use the propane ( from Dead River ) for my gas stove in the kitchen, and a gas log in the back sunroom for a little supplemental heat on week ends.  It seems to work for me.


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## Jags (Apr 14, 2014)

I have used a standard 60 gal. electric water heater for ever.  Even when I had 3 adults and two little ones in the house I never ran out of hot water.  Ever.


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## peakbagger (Apr 14, 2014)

I would investigate one of the Nyletherm heat pump hot water heaters on ebay and a electric hot water heater for backup.


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## moey (Apr 14, 2014)

If your worried about running out of hot water buy a 80 gallon electric tank they are a couple hundred more. Forget the timer it will not save much standby losses are so low in a modern electric tank. Youll run out of hot water when the heat exchanger needs replacing in the Rinnai and your kicking yourself to try and achieve the payback that will never be realized because propane and electric cost about the same in Maine.


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## john193 (Apr 14, 2014)

What about the GE geospring? I'm about a hair pin from pulling the trigger on one. My local utility is offering $400 rebate.


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## kennyp2339 (Apr 14, 2014)

I also have been wondering about switching over to an on demand hot water system. Its just my girlfriend and myself so our usage should be lower than the average family usage.


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## krooser (Apr 14, 2014)

I spent big $$$ for an on-demand system that was supposed to save me big $$$… never happened. Now we have to run the crap out of the water until it gets hot enough to shower… my water usage is up so any 'perceived' savings I got is now spent on H20.

I think I would be happier if I had a small on demand heater in the main bathroom to supplement the main heater… that would heat our shower water and keep water usage down.

I'd sooner have my old tank type heater back...


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## BrotherBart (Apr 14, 2014)

Taking this over to the DIY room for wider coverage.


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## rafmt (Apr 14, 2014)

I have had an Aquastar on demand hot water heater for the last 12 years. It is a very basic unit. Probably not one of the top of the line heaters but it has worked perfect for me. I had to change the thermocouple once. It being the only thing I use propane for I have it hooked up to a small 20 lb bottle. Can go for over a month on it. Try filling a large jetted bath tub with an electric heater. I am sold on them and will never have an electric water heater again.


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## maple1 (Apr 15, 2014)

I would definitey get rid of everything oil related, right off.

The next step would have a couple of ways to turn - but it is very hard to beat the cheap up front & ongoing operational costs (and easy install) of a simple electric hot water heater. Unless you went the extra step for a HPWH, or added one on to that simple electric heater.

Rinnai - that's propane? So you have propane already also? That might sway me a little bit, but I would likely still go with the electric. But we also don't know much detail about the rest of your heating system - and backup heat considerations.


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## DZL_Damon (Apr 15, 2014)

Get a Hotwater heat pump and you will wonder why they are not better advertised.... probably because slow recovery time.

My wife takes scalding hot, long showers. With our 30 gallon SuperStor indirect hot water tank it was difficult to get 2 showers in a row if she was left to her own devices! If she took a normal, 8 minute shower there was no issue with x2 back to back showers. If I waited just about 30-45 minutes I would have no problems with hot water with my shower.

With that said... I upgraded to a 45 gal SuperStor I scored on craigslist so this summer she can do whatever she wants and we will still be able to do back to back showers. I helped my buddy install the same heat pump on his 41 gal Amtrol and he has never run out even once.

You're from Maine... talk to TominMaine or TomfromMaine on this forum to buy a Nyletherm for $65 less than ebay ($300 last I saw) or on craigslist there is a fellow in Augusta that has a 110v unit (the one I have) for $350. Both the Nyle and the one I have (made by the former Hallowell heat pump company) were made in Maine.

Out of EXTREME coincidence/irony... the guy I bought the 45 gal SuperStor from happened to be the engineer that designed the heat pump for Nyle (Brewer) and then went to Hallowell (Bangor) and made theirs! The Hallowells never went to market over a copyright issue since they used several common parts, just made it 110v vs 220v.

I made Hot water for my wife and I at $0.74/dayaveraged over 3 months  with Maines high electricity rate of $0.175/kwh. It will be lower this year since I will have it on a timer so it's not always keeping itself hot while I'm at work.


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## woodgeek (Apr 16, 2014)

Skip the on-demand system.  Just get a geospring, or a Marathon tank if you don't have a semi-conditioned space for a noisy HPWH.

And never look back.

The whole 'running out of hot water' bit is a legend from the days when all shower heads were 5 gallons per minute.  Shop around for a highly rated shower head in the 2 gpm range, and you will have no problems.  If you want 5+ gpm showers or jacuzzi tubs, then you will have to pay extra for a monster HW system.


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## moey (Apr 16, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> The whole 'running out of hot water' bit is a legend from the days when all shower heads were 5 gallons per minute.  Shop around for a highly rated shower head in the 2 gpm range, and you will have no problems.  If you want 5+ gpm showers or jacuzzi tubs, then you will have to pay extra for a monster HW system.



I used to get luke warm showers on a 40 gallon tank when our kids had a bath. We moved and I switched to a 80 gallon tank no luke warm showers anymore.


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## roadking88 (Apr 16, 2014)

I looked into a heat pump  GE geospring and it has a load of bad reviews....drops the temp in the cellar 10 degrees..i have no insulation down there now with no heat stays about 49 -50 on the coldest night..have wood stove for back up down there if it gets too cold.. but dont want to burn wood all the time....read the negative reviews on this thing..
http://www.amazon.com/GEH50DEEDSR-G...id=1397660593&sr=8-2&keywords=ge+GE+geospring


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## maple1 (Apr 16, 2014)

Not many negative reviews though on this site?


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## john193 (Apr 16, 2014)

No


maple1 said:


> Not many negative reviews though on this site?


none that I found


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## john193 (Apr 16, 2014)

roadking88 said:


> I looked into a heat pump  GE geospring and it has a load of bad reviews....drops the temp in the cellar 10 degrees..i have no insulation down there now with no heat stays about 49 -50 on the coldest night..have wood stove for back up down there if it gets too cold.. but dont want to burn wood all the time....read the negative reviews on this thing..
> http://www.amazon.com/GEH50DEEDSR-GeoSpring-Hybrid-Electric-Heater/dp/B00826MC3W/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1397660593&sr=8-2&keywords=ge GE geospring


It isn't quite clear from the reviews if they pertain to the gen 1 or gen 2 unit. Typically reviewers don't pay attention to the generation and model no before leaving a review. Based on the claimed install dates in the reviews I'm inclined to think it is the first gen. Secondly, negative reviews generally point to issues that the reviewer felt wasn't rectified to their satisfaction. Since this is a subjective matter, it is difficult to filter the unreasonable reviews from the reasonable ones. I typically consult amazon reviews in products but large appliances are not their forte and the reviews on there lead me to conclude that it isn't a fair assessment of the overall performance. Even if these people eventually got the unit repaired, they are likely to not update the review. Finally, those who like something rarely leave a review. Reviews typically come from both extremes if the satisfactory scale.


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## begreen (Apr 16, 2014)

john193 said:


> No
> 
> none that I found


It seems that it takes a few years before problems start showing up. There is some speculation that the problem was worse with the older (blue top?) units. Discussion here:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/geospring-bad-reviews.126616/

More review on Sears website. The positive reviews appear to be new owners happy with the savings or rebate deal. The negative reviews are by people that have owned them long enough to start running into repairs.
http://www.sears.com/ge-geospring-trade-hybrid-water-heater/p-04232200000P


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## john193 (Apr 16, 2014)

begreen said:


> It seems that it takes a few years before problems start showing up. There is some speculation that the problem was worse with the older (blue top?) units. Discussion here:
> https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/geospring-bad-reviews.126616/
> 
> More review on Sears website. The positive reviews appear to be new owners happy with the savings or rebate deal. The negative reviews are by people that have owned them long enough to start running into repairs.
> http://www.sears.com/ge-geospring-trade-hybrid-water-heater/p-04232200000P


Yes the first gen had some QC issues. I read the first 4 one star reviews on the sears link you provided and the reviewers clearly state they are having issue with the first gen (blue top) unit. 

As a side not the second gen comes with a 10 year warranty on parts and 1 year on labor. If you buy through lowes for an extra 100 they will extend the labor warranty to 10 years. A no brainer IMO.


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## begreen (Apr 16, 2014)

It's too early for me to gamble on the red top units. They have some bad reviews showing up already on Amazon. You can have warranty service but if no one knows how to service them it's kind of a moot point. I'll wait a few years to see what shakes out as the best option.


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## Highbeam (Apr 16, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> Just get a geospring, or a Marathon tank if you don't have a semi-conditioned space for a noisy HPWH.


 
I agree, and recently installed a 1.5 gpm head from Delta. We don't run out of hot water like in the olden days. 10 minutes means 15 gallons of tempered water so maybe only 10 gallons from a 50 gallon tank per shower.


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## john193 (Apr 16, 2014)

begreen said:


> It's too early for me to gamble on the red top units. They have some bad reviews showing up already on Amazon. You can have warranty service but if no one knows how to service them it's kind of a moot point. I'll wait a few years to see what shakes out as the best option.


This was the point I and another forum member made. The reviews you see on amazon contain the first gen reviews. The 1.7 star rating is not solely indicative of the second gen unit. In other words, the rating on amazon is moot and should be taken with a few grains of salt...


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## maple1 (Apr 16, 2014)

How many iterations of Geospring are there? Those red top ones don't look anything like the one I saw in the local bldg supply earlier this winter.


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## john193 (Apr 16, 2014)

maple1 said:


> How many iterations of Geospring are there? Those red top ones don't look anything like the one I saw in the local bldg supply earlier this winter.


Here is gen 1

http://frommelectric.com/portals/0/emails/powerline/4thquarter2011/geospring.jpg

here is the current gen (this generation comes in red or gray)

http://i2.wp.com/www.goedekers.com/...013/04/228254_Geospring_LaserRed_noshadow.jpg


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## jebatty (Apr 17, 2014)

A standard electric hot water heater, size as you wish, super insulated (at least 6" insulation) with all reachable hot water pipes also insulated and U-shaped heat traps, can be quite inexpensive to operate. Two of us, plus a regularly visiting daughter with grandchild, 100 kwh/month for electric hot water.


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## woodgeek (Apr 17, 2014)

Remember that the GE still has a heating element that kicks in automatically if it gets too cold, so the HP is still saving you $$ 9-10 mos per year, otherwise its a regular electric tank heater.  A full basement at 50° is not likely to get pulled down more than a couple degrees by a HPWH.  

It's your choice....if you have a good place to install it, and can get rebates on the geospring to get the cost down close to or below a marathon, I would go for it.  If the GE reviews give you cold feet, or no rebates in ME, then get a marathon, the difference is prob $150-200 a year in running cost.  Or get a cheapo (but insulated) tank, and swap it out for HPWH in 5-10 years when that tech has 'matured'.


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## john193 (Apr 17, 2014)

@woodgeek 

How long have you had your geospring for? And I'm assuming you have the later red top unit?


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## begreen (Apr 17, 2014)

jebatty said:


> A standard electric hot water heater, size as you wish, super insulated (at least 6" insulation) with all reachable hot water pipes also insulated and U-shaped heat traps, can be quite inexpensive to operate. Two of us, plus a regularly visiting daughter with grandchild, 100 kwh/month for electric hot water.


That's the way we're set up. Add low flow shower heads and a miserly front loading washer to reduce hot water consumption and the bill is not bad. With the GeoSpring's subsidized price at $199+ $100 for extended warranty and it would take at least 30 or so months to pay back. Oddly that is just about when these units seem to be breaking down.


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## Highbeam (Apr 17, 2014)

begreen said:


> That's the way we're set up. Add low flow shower heads and a miserly front loading washer to reduce hot water consumption and the bill is not bad. .


 
My dishwasher uses more water than the clothes washing machine. And the clothes washer can be set to take cold or warm water.


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## woodgeek (Apr 17, 2014)

john193 said:


> @woodgeek
> 
> How long have you had your geospring for? And I'm assuming you have the later red top unit?



I've had the AOSmith Voltrex 80 gallon HPWH for 22 mos.

He's 7' tall. weighs >1000 lbs, and answers to 'Optimus Prime'.


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## roadking88 (Apr 26, 2014)

well just got off the phone with my boiler man and he said i can leave water in the boiler and just reduce the pressure to 0 shut the switch and if i need heat just pump up the pressure to 12 / 14 lbs turn on the switch and good to go...putting in a electric hot water tank this week ..that's it for me with oil...F^*( em...


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