# Pipe material for replumbing hydronic central heat...



## MarcM (Apr 13, 2009)

Question for those that have done DIY work on their central heat-

I'm in a large and old farmhouse that currently has a very old Fitzgibbons 400 oil boiler and hydronic heat zoned into 2 main feed/return loops with branch lines for the cast iron radiators (comes off feed through radiator and onto the return line).

The plumbing is all 'black iron' pipe.  Needless to say, I'd like to have more than 2 zones for about 3500 sq ft of floor space, plus the system I have is not well balanced.  I'm sure the radiator and plumbing sizing was all done by rule of thumb.  The radiator valves either leak through or don't turn at all.

I'm replacing the oil boiler this summer with a more efficient unit.  Next year or the year following I plan on doing a gasifier install, followed by storage as time/budget permits.

To rezone the heat with the current plumbing would be at best extremely difficult, given how I plant to rezone.

About 1/2 of the plumbing is in a dirt crawlspace, and 1/2 in a stone basement.  Is oxygen barrier pex suitable/practical/cost effective?  Copper in the diameter and wall thickness I'd need (doing rough estimates of heat demand and flow requirements) would be insanely expensive, plus I'd have to use dielectric unions at every radiator... I'm not a big fan of cutting and threading steel pipe, but that might be my best choice.

Were you in my shoes, what material would you use for replacement?


----------



## Northwoodsman (Apr 13, 2009)

Marc,

I just installed 2 different zones of baseboard (6 individual baseboard units) in my house and I used 3/4" Oxygen barrier PEX for the main run piping from my EKO40 to each zone and to connect the baseboard sections themselves. 

I really like working with PEX tubing and the price is much better than copper.

Thus, I would highly recommend PEX in your situation (the only place I didn't/wouldn't use PEX would be on the main primary loop that goes from the EKO boiler to my 1,000 gallons of storage and back to my boiler). I wouldn't recommend it in this application for 2 reasons: This line gets the hottest (it could reach 195F) and also the copper is much more comparable in price once you get into the 1-1/4 or 1-1/2" size range.

When you get to where your working on the design/need to purchase a gasifiaction boiler please go to my website at www.upnorthenergy and we'll get you a very competative quote for the boiler and items you need in addition to working on the engineering/design of an efficient system for your application.

Please feel to contact me if you have any other questions via. my website.

Thanks, NWM


----------



## MarcM (Apr 13, 2009)

Thanks for the feedback, NWM.  What style connector did you use?


----------



## WoodNotOil (Apr 13, 2009)

I used PEX to add my baseboard zones.  They make a 3/4" that is specifically for baseboards.  Don't worry about the max temp.  They say rated for 180* at 200psi.  Heating systems run well under 20psi and so the max temp is actually much higher than that.  Mine have seen water close to 200* with no problems at all.  The real weakness is in the connections.  Make sure you use the fittings suggested for the specific brand of PEX you go with.


----------



## Northwoodsman (Apr 13, 2009)

Marc,

I purchased all of my fittings from Menards (they have a great selection of fittings) and my PEX tubing from the internet and everything is working great.

If you don't have a Menards in your area I am now a dealer for these fittings, pipe and the crimp tool and would be more than happy to quote them to you also.

Regarding the type of fittings, I used the copper ring style fittings and had to purchase a crimp tool to crimp these rings.

Let me know what other questions you have and feel free to email me at brian@upnorthenergy.com directly.

NWM


----------



## Piker (Apr 14, 2009)

I have some pex on a radiant zone that actually requires 180* water.  Instead of direct thermal transfer to the subfloor via plates or extrusions, I used the Ultr-Fin.  I regularly send 200* water through that zone without any issues... I even went from the copper manifold to the pex via "sharkbite" connectors just to try them out... considered heresy by some of the old school guys.  Again, no issues.

Most pex is rated at 100 psi @ 180* and 80 psi @ 200*

cheers


----------



## steam man (Apr 14, 2009)

I am not convinced you need dielectric unions at every radiator. You can use yellow brass fittings between any ferrous metal and copper with minimal galvanic action. A lot of plumbers seem to not like dielectric unions which have there own issues.

Mike


----------



## Rick Stanley (Apr 14, 2009)

Here's a thing on dielectrics I found on Fred Seton's site  http://www.radiantdesigninstitute.com/page46.html


----------



## Sting (Apr 14, 2009)

Leave the distribution system alone

Replace each radiator control valve in the areas you want to to maintain at a cooler temperature with Danfoss thermal reacting valves and relocate the house stat to the area that has the greatest heat loss.

Lost less work and lots less expense with a greater comfort and return on investment!


----------



## MarcM (Apr 14, 2009)

Sting said:
			
		

> Leave the distribution system alone
> 
> Replace each radiator control valve in the areas you want to to maintain at a cooler temperature with Danfoss thermal reacting valves and relocate the house stat to the area that has the greatest heat loss.
> 
> Lost less work and lots less expense with a greater comfort and return on investment!



I appreciate the feedback, and I have considered TRV's, but they're just not something that will meet all my needs going forward.  This resto/renovation/upgrade is what I'd call medium grade... and trying my best not to sound like the guy teaching everyone a new game and adding rules as it becomes convenient, I'll be doing other things that will require more flexibility in the system, like adding radiant heat to the kitchen (when it gets redone in two or three years), the downstairs bathroom and the upstairs bathroom, I'll be adding panel radiators on the second floor, I'll be adding plumbing for the wood boiler and storage tanks when I eventually get there, plus I'm replacing the oil boiler at the same time.

I'd rather replumb and have the system designed for what I want it to do, and hence making it more efficient, rather than just adding flow restrictions to redistribute the heat.  And now's the time to do it.  It's a complicated house, and it will take more planning and design than what was originally put in to the system (which was none).


----------



## MarcM (Apr 14, 2009)

steam man said:
			
		

> I am not convinced you need dielectric unions at every radiator. You can use yellow brass fittings between any ferrous metal and copper with minimal galvanic action. A lot of plumbers seem to not like dielectric unions which have there own issues.
> 
> Mike



Thanks for that, and thank for the link Rick.

I had read some things in favor and against dielectric unions... I have seen some pretty aggresive water chemistry in the fire protection systems I work with, and typically pipe and fittings will corrode first, however, the water is completely different from boiler loop water since most of what I deal with is all oxygenated.

Regardless, I think copper is my last choice if only due to its price, and the inconvience (at best) of sweating connections in a dirt crawlspace, which I'd like to avoid if at all possible, so the point may be moot right now.


----------



## Sting (Apr 14, 2009)

MarcM said:
			
		

> I appreciate the feedback, and I have considered TRV's, but they're just not something that will meet all my needs going forward.



HUMMMMMM!!  each radiator can be upgraded in about an hour -- the area is then comfort modulated and will consume less energy - the system performance is enhanced. And this doesn't meet your needs?????

OK -- start by tearing the entire distribution system out of the basement - back to the last available fitting disappearing into the walls and construct home runs of 3/4 black to each loop left by the demolition - Place a thermostat in each of those areas and control either a zone valve or a dedicated (better) zone pump to each loop - add what ever baseboard ( YUCK ) or radiant system you want in any area and pipe home runs of that back to the boiler. Construct one or several temperature reducing manifolds and connect the home runs to these as or directly to the boiler temperature manifold as you heat loss calculation dictates per load loss of each zone. Add several ports to each distribution loop for planned expansion.

Still sound like a DIY project????


----------



## MarcM (Apr 14, 2009)

Sting said:
			
		

> MarcM said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Indeed it does.  I knew pretty well what I was getting into when I started the project.  I'll be using panel radiators, by the way, not baseboards.


----------



## Sting (Apr 14, 2009)

Well you sound like your ready for a challenge -- make a primary loop to commingle all your different boilers into the system and allow them to play well together then build your temperature related supply manifolds off that and pipe from there

Here I a nice example as posted by others:


----------



## MarcM (Apr 14, 2009)

Thanks for the info Sting.

If it makes you feel any better, I do actually have some background in this... not residential boiler loops in particular, but I've got a couple engineering degrees and have calculated flow demand and friction loss on more commercial sprinkler systems than I care to remember.  Thank God for SprinkCalc.  I'm tight with Hazen Williams.    Plus I currently work in a lab that certifies fire protection equipment, so I'm good with sweating, threading, roll grooving, cut grooving, cementing, flanging, etc. etc.


----------



## Sting (Apr 14, 2009)

Read some of these before you begin

http://store.hydronicpros.com/category.php?qcc=1002&qpg=1

This is likely the best 80 bucks you will ever spend on your hobby!
http://www.heatinghelp.com/shopcart/product.cfm?category=8-191
add this and your a jump ahead for wiring
http://www.heatinghelp.com/shopcart/product.cfm?category=2-41


This link leads to a pipe and pressure drop sizer, free download.

http://www.bellgossett.com/BG-SystemSyzer.asp

Here is another link to calculate the amount of fuel you should expect to be using per day by what the weather is bearing on their load.

http://www.degreedays.net/

Good Primer to read on wet heating

http://www.bellgossett.com/literature/files/1195.pdf


----------



## DaveBP (Apr 15, 2009)

Marc,
  Sting's links are good info. 
I don't think it's possible to over-endorse Siegenthaler's book, "Modern Hydronic Heating" for anyone who is willing to tackle a project like yours. It's not light reading. But if you have the courage of your convictions you'll find it a treasure of information and inspiration. If you can do fire suppresion sprinkler systems you can handle hydronics; just the mental flip of adding heat transfer to the flow calculations. Siegenthaler's book comes with some very useful software to do some of the basic drudgework. And if you speak Autocad, the Hydrosym software allows you to make really professional drawings of anything you can imagine hydronically.


----------



## MarcM (Apr 15, 2009)

DaveBP said:
			
		

> Marc,
> Sting's links are good info.
> I don't think it's possible to over-endorse Siegenthaler's book, "Modern Hydronic Heating" for anyone who is willing to tackle a project like yours. It's not light reading. But if you have the courage of your convictions you'll find it a treasure of information and inspiration. If you can do fire suppresion sprinkler systems you can handle hydronics; just the mental flip of adding heat transfer to the flow calculations. Siegenthaler's book comes with some very useful software to do some of the basic drudgework. And if you speak Autocad, the Hydrosym software allows you to make really professional drawings of anything you can imagine hydronically.



Thanks for the feedback Dave.  After all the heat transfer work I did in college and since then, it doesn't yet intimidate me.  Perhaps it will once I get into it, but I love a good challenge just the same.


----------

