# Is this a decent wood stove?



## CR250Rider (Nov 12, 2012)

http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3933666&cp=2568443.2568453.2627947.1260958

*Ace Hardware England's Stove Works® 1500Sq Ft Free Standing Wood Burning Stove (50-SNC13)*

Item no: 4236998
$769.99

*It seems just like some of the models they sell at various "fireplace" stores for $1800.*


Sorry if this has been asked before, I'm just a nube, have mercy 
Any obvious thoughts?

thanks!


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## begreen (Nov 12, 2012)

Welcome CR. The Englander 13NC is a good medium small stove. It competes in a crowded field of mid-sized stoves. There are lots of threads and reviews here. Search on 13NC.


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## Sprinter (Nov 12, 2012)

I was attracted to this stove at first, too, mostly because of price, which is certainly good. Home Depot sells it, too, as an Englander 13NC.  Maybe Lowes also?  I believe it was begreen who first tipped me that it requires a hearth pad with an R rating of 2.0 which is unusual and will add to the overall cost of installation. However, if it's the right size for your needs, it has a good reputation.

If you're in the market, I would encourage you to get involved in this forum. Lots of good advice and experience here. I found that there's a lot to learn to do it right


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## El Finko (Nov 12, 2012)

It is for sure a decent stove. I have the 30NC and it is a quality piece, so I would vouch for Englander.

Just make sure it's the right size firebox for the space you want to heat. Always go big, if in doubt.

You can catch a big fish with a small hook, but you can't ask a small stove to heat a large space- and the farther from the stove and the more corners the hot air has to negotiate, the bigger the stove you'll need.

That said, I love my Englander. It's hummin' away as I type this...


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## Sprinter (Nov 12, 2012)

El Finko said:


> ...so I would vouch for Englander.
> .


The manufacturer has a pretty solid rep for customer service as well, which is important since they don't have a traditional dealer network.


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## Pallet Pete (Nov 13, 2012)

CR250Rider said:


> http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3933666&cp=2568443.2568453.2627947.1260958
> 
> *Ace Hardware England's Stove Works® 1500Sq Ft Free Standing Wood Burning Stove (50-SNC13)*
> 
> ...



How many square feet are you trying to heat ? Is your home insulated ? Do you have dry wood ? 

Welcome 
Pete


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## CR250Rider (Nov 13, 2012)

1600 sq feet, well insulated 2 story home built in 1984
stove on 1st floor, we close off the two bedrooms upstairs.
Wood is dry but not prime at all...
thanks!


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## Sprinter (Nov 13, 2012)

CR250Rider said:


> 1600 sq feet, well insulated 2 story home built in 1984
> stove on 1st floor, we close off the two bedrooms upstairs.
> Wood is dry but not prime at all...
> thanks!


In your (our) climate, with only the first floor heated of 1600 sf total, well insulated, that stove may well be adequate. But, a couple questions:

1. Why are you closing off the bedrooms upstairs? Preserve heat or just not used or what?
2. Do you expect the stove to be the primary heat source, or secondary, supplemental?

About the wood. It doesn't matter what stove you get, the wood has to be adequately dry, which means 20% moisture content or better. Do you know what it is? If not, you probably should get a moisture meter and find out for sure.  We are very adamant about wood quality around here


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## Pallet Pete (Nov 13, 2012)

CR250Rider said:


> 1600 sq feet, well insulated 2 story home built in 1984
> stove on 1st floor, we close off the two bedrooms upstairs.
> Wood is dry but not prime at all...
> thanks!


 
The downstairs would be smaller then the 1600 square feet then ? If so It would fit well however it might be worth going to the 30-NC instead. That way you can heat the whole house and have the extra umph on the really cold nights. Trust me you will want it when it gets real cold out ! The 30-NC is  priced anywhere from 699- 1099 depending on what Home Depot is having a sale. You can go to Home Depot website punch in random zip codes or states and get different prices when you get the price you want you can buy it and they ship it to your store free. At least when we where looking. 

Pete


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## Sprinter (Nov 13, 2012)

Pallet Pete said:


> The downstairs would be smaller then the 1600 square feet then ? *If so It would fit well however it might be worth going to the 30-NC instead. That way you can heat the whole house and have the extra umph on the really cold nights. Trust me you will want it when it gets real cold out !* The 30-NC is priced anywhere from 699- 1099 depending on what Home Depot is having a sale. You can go to Home Depot website punch in random zip codes or states and get different prices when you get the price you want you can buy it and they ship it to your store free. At least when we where looking.
> 
> Pete


Pete, anywhere else that may be good advice. But in Seattle, it's really mild. 30's and low 40's is common. 20's happens but not for long. Teens is rare. But that's why I ask about the duty required from a stove and about the upstairs. For supplemental and only the first floor which may only be under 1000 sf and good insulation, I honestly think the 30 would be too much.  A mid-size 2 cf might work, though, even heating the upstairs too.


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## Pallet Pete (Nov 13, 2012)

Sprinter said:


> Pete, anywhere else that may be good advice. But in Seattle, it's really mild. 30's and low 40's is common. 20's happens but not for long. Teens is rare. But that's why I ask about the duty required from a stove and about the upstairs. For supplemental and only the first floor which may only be under 1000 sf and good insulation, I honestly think the 30 would be too much.


 
I would not have guessed that ! I have seen some of the deepest snow and coldest times in Washington state when trucking. I believe you its just odd to me.

Pete


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## Sprinter (Nov 13, 2012)

Pallet Pete said:


> I would not have guessed that ! I have seen some of the deepest snow and coldest times in Washington state when trucking. I believe you its just odd to me.
> 
> Pete


You were probably driving through the east part of the state east of the Cascades (or on top of them) . Whole different ball game there. I've lived on both sides and it's like two planets. Not to say that we don't get some severe weather sometimes, we do. Snow, too. It just doesn't happen often or last long.

Oh, and I think the NC 13 is 1.8 cf which is not as small as many.


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## CR250Rider (Nov 14, 2012)

yeah, probably 1,000 sq ft downstairs, we have a nice hi/lo burn nat gas furnace, so the wood stove would be to keep me and the Mrs warm during tv time 
I think it's better to run a smaller stove hotter, than a larger one cooler, right?
I got my 1st bid for the chimney...$2250. sounds steep to me..._."cost to remove existing metal chimney pipe, install framing for support box, chimney pipe, 6" classA, brackets, and chimney cap."_


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## ddddddden (Nov 14, 2012)

CR250Rider said:


> . . .I got my 1st bid for the chimney...$2250. sounds steep to me..._."cost to remove existing metal chimney pipe, install framing for support box, chimney pipe, 6" classA, brackets, and chimney cap."_


 
Class A pipe ain't cheap, but if you want to DIY, Lowe's/Menard's sells Selkirk SuperVent ~ $25 /ft. last time I looked.


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## Sprinter (Nov 14, 2012)

CR250Rider said:


> yeah, probably 1,000 sq ft downstairs, we have a nice hi/lo burn nat gas furnace, so the wood stove would be to keep me and the Mrs warm during tv time
> I think it's better to run a smaller stove hotter, than a larger one cooler, right?
> I got my 1st bid for the chimney...$2250. sounds steep to me..._."cost to remove existing metal chimney pipe, install framing for support box, chimney pipe, 6" classA, brackets, and chimney cap."_


Big or small. That's a bit controversial sometimes. Most advise you hear will be that it's better to go a step larger if in doubt because you have more capacity in times that you need it and you can build small fires in a larger stove. It will just burn out quicker so you won't have long burn times. Usually that works. However, in your case, it's easier because it will be largely supplemental heat and for ambiance, you have a well insulated house and only 1000 sf to heat on one level in a moderate climate. I think a smaller stove like this would be fine, although it is more medium sized than small. Even smaller maybe, but for ambiance you should maybe consider the size of the window. 1.8 cf is a decent sized stove for a small, easy to heat space. The only caveat I would mention about this particular model is that it requires a hearth pad with a R2.0 insulating value. That would be a bit more expensive to either build or buy, but not necessarily a deal breaker.

Installation costs vary a lot depending on how tall it needs to be, how it has to be installed, etc. Chimney parts alone can be a lot. $2250 seems like a lot unless there is some reason for it. A two story house may require a pretty long chimney and pipe, especially if the roof is steep and the peak high. They have to remove some existing stuff. Sounds like they have to build a support structure. Was the bid itemized? We may be able to better tell you about the installation if you can detail the estimate. Seattle may also be kind of an expensive market for that, too, especially this time of year. Maybe Seattle has some strict codes to follow.  Without a dealer, you better get a good installer.

I'd advise you to go to some dealers. If cost is a huge consideration, there are other good budget priced stoves sold by dealers. Pacific Energy's True North comes to mind, and others. Also, some day you may want to open up those bedrooms upstairs. It may be wise to plan your selection for that...

The most important item? Good (dry) wood. And don't believe the supplier. Get a moisture meter and measure what you get.


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## StihlHead (Nov 14, 2012)

You might wanna save yourself $120 clams ($130 with WA sales tax) and buy the same stove at the Home Depot there in Seattle (the Lander store) where they sell the 13-NC for $649. Home Depot calls it the 1800 sq ft stove. They also have the larger 30-NC at Home Depot that is the same design stove, but deeper for $899. It is also WA state approved.

_Note to self: Thank you for reading the Hearth forum and finding out about and buying an Englander 30 this summer from a HD in Virginia for $649, with free shipping to my living room._ ​​Oh, and if in doubt, the 30 will definately roast your home. I have yet to have to fill mine, down to 34 degrees so far this year, ~1400 sq ft dubba wyde tin can, so a 13 would likely have done fine. I am in the west slopes of the Cascades in north Oregon.​


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## blades (Nov 14, 2012)

Englander, Timberline, and Summers heat all the same stoves. That NC-13 should be more than enough for the Seattle weather.
Flue cost at $2250, I do not think that is out of line, as stated they are removing an old one, building a new chase and installing a new ClassA pipe, actually reasonable considering 25 ft class A pipe at $25/ft is $625 by itself. So $1625   for the new chase, demo of the old, trucking of waste, Building permits and disposal fees. Got to remember guys Seattle has some fairly high costs thanks to all the greenies that slid up from Kalifornia. For that matter the whole west coast is pretty pricey.


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## corey21 (Nov 14, 2012)

Yeah that is a good stove everything have heard about the company and stove are good things.


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## StihlHead (Nov 14, 2012)

blades said:


> Englander, Timberline, and Summers heat all the same stoves.


 
Should read _TimberRidge_... but other than that, they all have non cat 13 and 30 models that are the same, and they are all EPA and WA state certified. Also Kings Co., WA certified with an OAK. Englanders from HD seems to be the cheapest available here in the spendy west.


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## CR250Rider (Nov 15, 2012)

blades said:


> Englander, Timberline, and Summers heat all the same stoves. That NC-13 should be more than enough for the Seattle weather.
> Flue cost at $2250, I do not think that is out of line, as stated they are removing an old one, building a new chase and installing a new ClassA pipe, actually reasonable considering 25 ft class A pipe at $25/ft is $625 by itself. So $1625 for the new chase, demo of the old, trucking of waste, Building permits and disposal fees. Got to remember guys Seattle has some fairly high costs thanks to all the greenies that slid up from Kalifornia. For that matter the whole west coast is pretty pricey.


the chimney starts at the ceiling of the 1st floor, goes into a interior wall upstairs and through the 2nd floor ceiling where the angle of the roof makes the ceiling of the 2nd floor where the pipe goes through only about 7 feet, no attic, just slanted roof. So I would guess the length of the chimney to be installed at around 17 feet tops. I was going to hook up the black stove pipe from the stove to the ceiling flange myself, on the 1st floor...
...if that makes sense ?

no itemized estimate, I think he's charging me $800-1,000 labor for 6 hours of total house work. ?


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## ddddddden (Nov 15, 2012)

blades said:


> . . .actually reasonable considering 25 ft class A pipe at $25/ft is $625 by itself. . .


$25 /ft is for SuperVent.  A fancier brand might run double that price.



CR250Rider said:


> the chimney starts at the ceiling of the 1st floor, goes into a interior wall upstairs and through the 2nd floor ceiling where the angle of the roof makes the ceiling of the 2nd floor where the pipe goes through only about 7 feet, no attic, just slanted roof. So I would guess the length of the chimney to be installed at around 17 feet tops. I was going to hook up the black stove pipe from the stove to the ceiling flange myself, on the 1st floor...
> ...if that makes sense ?
> 
> no itemized estimate, I think he's charging me $800-1,000 labor for 6 hours of total house work. ?


Maybe.  I just had to drop a flex liner down a masonry chimney, so I don't know exactly how difficult a through-the-roof install is, but I think the job can be done by any decent carpenter. . .doesn't necessarily have to be "chimney" guy.  OTOH, your insurance co might require that anyone other than you doing the install be a "professional" chimney guy.


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## blades (Nov 16, 2012)

Sorry on the timberline/ridge, 2 out 3 ain't all bad. Heck the other day I could not come up with the first 3 digits of my ss#. Memory loss is a groan, but hey I get a lot of new friends that way, everyday.


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## CR250Rider (Nov 17, 2012)

I had my 3rd bid for my new class A chimney today and the estimator said "your existing chimney is up to code in every way, why are you replacing it? just get a reducer for the chimney's 8"

Hat's off to Al Brown.....fire safe chimney sweep & repair, Renton, WA... 100% honest guy. his "helper-guy" Rodger is a journeyman in his own right. Saved me a lot of money I can now spend on Quartz countertops for the Mrs....


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## ddddddden (Nov 17, 2012)

Sweet! It's nice when you stumble across one of the few remaining honest people in this world. 
You might want to get Al's opinion in writing, to pacify your insurance co. It might also be a good idea to ask Mike(stoveguy2esw) what he thinks about running the 13NC with an 8" flue. It's generally considered best to stay with the same diameter from the stove collar all the way up. Some stoves are probably fine with increasing flue size; some might be more finicky about draft.


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## stoveguy2esw (Nov 17, 2012)

the unit can be connected to a flue that is within cross sectional value  no more than 2 times that of the flue collar on the stove. 2 times piR squared. the "R" is radius so if a 6 inch round is used its radius is 3 (or half the width) 4 is radius for 8 inch round.  so piR sq. is for a 6 inch round (3 X 3) X 3.14, or 9 X 3.14.

on a square flue you simply go length X width  so a 6 inch square would be 6x6 or 36 sq in.  say a flue is 6 X 9 would be 54 sq in.

connecting to an 8 inch round flue is fine. bigger than that would be an issue. you look at cross sectional value, which is basically how many square inches of space. a 6" flue would be 28.26 sq inches  (3.14 X 9) or (3 times piR sq.) now an 8 inch round would be 50.24 (3.14 X 16) or (4 times piR sq)

so at 28.26 X 2 (56.52 sq in) you have your maximum cross sectional value for a 6 inch flue'd appliance the 8 inch round is within the size parameters allowed to connect to any woodstove with a 6 inch collar unless the manufacturer SPECIFICALLY states you can only use a 6 inch flue. we do not make that specification.

so long story short yeah you can hook that 13 up to an eight inch flue. just thought it would be neat to throw the math out there for folks to see how to calculate cross sectional values on a round flue.


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## rottiman (Nov 17, 2012)

stoveguy2esw said:


> the unit can be connected to a flue that is within cross sectional value no more than 2 times that of the flue collar on the stove. 2 times piR squared. the "R" is radius so if a 6 inch round is used its radius is 3 (or half the width) 4 is radius for 8 inch round. so piR sq. is for a 6 inch round (3 X 3) X 3.14, or 9 X 3.14.
> 
> on a square flue you simply go length X width so a 6 inch square would be 6x6 or 36 sq in. say a flue is 6 X 9 would be 54 sq in.
> 
> ...


 
Awesome reference Mike,  all that and your a Steelers fan as well......LOL.  Seriously though, your products are great and your customer service is outstanding.  CR250Rider you would do well for your $$$$investment with the 13.


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## CR250Rider (Nov 17, 2012)

So it looks like I'm back to having someone install a classA chimney again.
I was told (my free advice ) that I should relocate the support straps to the section above the 45 degree elbow and then just remove the elbow. The inside liner and the outside would be connected, section by section. I could then just get a 8" to 6" reducer and use stove pipe to install the bottom of the chimney to the stove. cool, sounded simple...OOPS!
The outer pipe had spacers but the inside pipe and the outside pipe were not connected. As soon as I pulled off the elbow, it all came crashing down. It goes way up there past where I can see. It was only supported at the very bottom after all.
My entire construction plan was going to make a false upper wall to hide the 10" pipe so I've stopped and seeking wisdom from one of you guys.
ug, I just want to burn some wood!






















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## stoveguy2esw (Nov 17, 2012)

ok hold up a minute.

are you removing a zero clearance FP? chimneys are different in most cases. * this is extremely important! *is the current flue air cooled or insulated? look at the pipe for a label. look on the label for the following "UL 103" or "UL 103 HT" in order to have a safe and effective chimney you must have the "HT" rated pipe.where did the label in your last picture come from? dude, we may well need to talk. look in your inbox in a few im going to shoot you a way to get to me when im back in my office monday. lets put a hold on this project until we know what you have in your roof.


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## CR250Rider (Nov 17, 2012)

stoveguy2esw said:


> ok hold up a minute.
> 
> are you removing a zero clearance FP? chimneys are different in most cases. * this is extremely important! *is the current flue air cooled or insulated? look at the pipe for a label. look on the label for the following "UL 103" or "UL 103 HT" in order to have a safe and effective chimney you must have the "HT" rated pipe.where did the label in your last picture come from? dude, we may well need to talk. look in your inbox in a few im going to shoot you a way to get to me when im back in my office monday. lets put a hold on this project until we know what you have in your roof.


 
Yes, Zero clearance FP
No 103 anywhere I can see.
The roof looks unchanged and it's raining like he*l but no leaking


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## begreen (Nov 18, 2012)

What part is that blue label from?

You'll definitely want to be sure that is correct chimney pipe. Also, single wall needs to be 18" from the nearest combustible.


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## BIGDADDY (Nov 18, 2012)

I know many people here have steel stoves but I would not buy one. I was reading your posts and saw that you are going to save some money on a chimney installation. My suggestion to you is to spend 1500 to 2500 and buy a cast iron stove. It will last longer and look nicer and I think provide better heat.


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## BobUrban (Nov 18, 2012)

Bigdaddy - not to stir the pot but I am curious what your reasoning is for discounting steel Vs. Cast stoves and what makes cast better?  Asthetics is very subjective and I can agree that some of the cast stoves are very elegant but regarding longevity and heat output I am not sure there is a significant, if ANY difference.  Especially when you consider most modern epa cast stoves are just welded steel boxes wrapped in cast.  Can you elaborate?


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## stoveguy2esw (Nov 18, 2012)

cast v/s steel that one has been "ford chevy'd" to death in here already.

they are different in characteristics, but overall since the advent of newer technology i dont think one is "better" than the other. even soapstone should be included in the chat. these days its more about they style and such rather than substance. a well maintained and properly operated steel, soapstone, or cast stove can last a lifetime. either one if not maintained or abused would have a considerably shorter lifespan.


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## BIGDADDY (Nov 19, 2012)

BobUrban said:


> Bigdaddy - not to stir the pot but I am curious what your reasoning is for discounting steel Vs. Cast stoves and what makes cast better?  Asthetics is very subjective and I can agree that some of the cast stoves are very elegant but regarding longevity and heat output I am not sure there is a significant, if ANY difference.  Especially when you consider most modern epa cast stoves are just welded steel boxes wrapped in cast.  Can you elaborate?




Well my response to you regarding heat out put would be that a steel box stove will begin putting off heat quicker then a cast iron stove. A cast iron stove will radiate the heat longer after the fire dies down then a steel box stove. Those are two obvious differences. Can both be pro or con depending on what time of year you are burning and if you just want to burn a short hot fire or 24 7 burning.
If you want to believe a steel box stove for 8 or 9 hundred dollars is as good as a 2500 $ stove you have that right. But for my money I will buy the cast iron stove over any steel box stove.


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## BIGDADDY (Nov 19, 2012)

stoveguy2esw said:


> cast v/s steel that one has been "ford chevy'd" to death in here already.
> 
> they are different in characteristics, but overall since the advent of newer technology i dont think one is "better" than the other. even soapstone should be included in the chat. these days its more about they style and such rather than substance. a well maintained and properly operated steel, soapstone, or cast stove can last a lifetime. either one if not maintained or abused would have a considerably shorter lifespan.




Does that mean you don't think the stoves you sell are better then another stove?


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## ddddddden (Nov 19, 2012)

BIGDADDY said:


> Does that mean you don't think the stoves you sell are better then another stove?


 
Mike has posted what he thinks.
I'd appreciate it if you didn't waste the time of mfr's who are generous enough with their time to post here.


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## BIGDADDY (Nov 19, 2012)

ddddddden said:


> Mike has posted what he thinks.
> I'd appreciate it if you didn't waste the time of mfr's who are generous enough with their time to post here.



I'd appreciate it if you don't waste my time with your interpretation of other people's post. I don't think it is unfair or unkind of me to ask a question of someone that makes a statement anymore then someone asking me a question about what I think even if I was clear about what I thought. 
So back down big boy.
Let every man speak for himself.
And as far as anyone being generous with their time to post here don't make me laugh. You sound ridiculous .


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## ddddddden (Nov 19, 2012)

stoveguy2esw said:


> cast v/s steel that one has been "ford chevy'd" to death in here already.
> 
> they are different in characteristics, but overall since the advent of newer technology *i dont think one is "better" than the other. . .*


 
What part do you not understand?


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## BIGDADDY (Nov 19, 2012)

ddddddden said:


> What part do you not understand?




I don't understand why you are sticking your beak in. I asked Mike a question. Now let me be clear. I don't care to hear anything from you. I asked Mike a question. I asked Mike a question. You know the mfr you apparently believe is so very important and his time so precious , but lets just wait and see if Mike will answer my simple question. In the mean time shhhhhhhhhhhh.


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## ddddddden (Nov 19, 2012)

Your question *has *been answered.
You are trying to bait a mfr about their product, while they are providing assistance to the OP.
If you're not going to help, move along to the "cast iron rulez" thread.


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## BIGDADDY (Nov 19, 2012)

ddddddden said:


> Your question *has *been answered.
> You are trying to bait a mfr about their product, while they are providing assistance to the OP.
> If you're not going to help, move along to the "cast iron rulez" thread.




I guess you and Mike must be some kind of buddies. I will tell you one thing I wouldn't even go in a stove store that says all stoves are basically the same none better then another. I'm sure that store doesn't have the stove I'm looking for. 
If I were going to sell stoves I would sell a better if not best stove you could buy. Just in case someone might want a better then average stove. If your stance is all stoves are the same then drive down to the nearest Lowes or Home Depot and pick you up one. Why pay more then $800 for a stove? I know you don't know the answer to that. It's kinda like when a child looks at a cow and a bull and doesn't really know the difference. Some people know the difference. Some people know when to shut up and some just keep on even after being ask nicely to but out. But you're a real pal of Mike's and you know his internal thought processes. Tell Mike I don't like those same as every other stoves. None better then any other. 
Thanks buddie


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## BobUrban (Nov 19, 2012)

Thanks BD - I am just trying to learn here and this is only my second year of fulltime home heating with wood. 

What stove are you using?


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## stoveguy2esw (Nov 19, 2012)

actually what i typed in is my own personal opinion. not embellishing anything. for the record , i do not "sell" in here, i made that promise to webbie before i even joined. my intention is to offer my expertise to folks who may have use for it.

as for my confidence in my product, heck yeah i believe my stoves are just as solid a product as can be found on the market. OTOH, i do not put down any other products out there who i may or may not be competing against in the market my products occupy. i find it distateful when it is done  by a manufacturer first off, and i believe that most any of the products out there are good if not great products even the ones i dont build. so if im inaccurate in my assessment of their products which would be easily recognized by the members in here what does that do for my credibility in this or any forum.


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## rideau (Nov 19, 2012)

I understood Mike to be dealing with the issue of whether cast or steel made a better stove, and interpreted his statement to mean that, given the same quality of build, both cast and steel stoves can today be manufactured to last a lifetime.  The material is not the determining factor in the life of the stove. 
He does not indicate that the quality of the build or the level of manufacturer response to issues is not a significant factor.
I didn't interpret his statement as an attempt to place a value on every stove manufactured. 
Nor did I interpret it as a statement dealing with his company's product.
His statement about "it is a matter of style rather than substance" if taken out of context could be interpreted to mean all stoves are equal, but in context clearly not.  He is clearly saying that with new technology one substance is not better than another and that with proper care and maintenance ONE made of any of the three substances CAN last a lifetime....not that ALL made with any of the three WILL.  Again, his position is that the material's not the determining factor. 

And I do think it is generous of him to respond to a potential customer so readily; his willingness to put forth a small additional effort can make a huge difference in the ease and comfort level associated with a customer's experience.  He cares, which is nice. 

Most people on the forum are here because they care, which again is nice.

BigDaddy, if you legitimately are interpreting Mike's statement to possibly mean every stove is created equal, and really want to know whether that is what he meant, why not ask that question?  Whether  you meant to or not, you did come across in the phrasing of your question as less than truly inquisitive.  Another point is that we all respond to questions asked of others on this forum, whenever we have an interest.  You can send a PM if you only want a response from one person.  On this forum, dddddden has a right to say his two cents in response to any post you make.  And your response to one of his responses was .... well, you choose a word to describe it. 

I don't know a thing about Mike, and have no axe to grind here.  Just would like to see the forum remain the civilized and informative place it is, where several manufacturers keep tabs and respond in a fashion that is helpful to us all.  And I think that is all ddddddden is trying to do. 

Without meaning to, I've said some things that have upset people on the Forum.  When I realize I have done so, I try to look at the statement I've made from their point of view and either apologize, explain, rephrase or inquire.  Or, in the last analysis, if all else fails, withdraw from the discussion....


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## stoveguy2esw (Nov 19, 2012)

FWIW my posts were an attempt at "putting out a fire" not starting or fueling one. as for the various manufacturers of stoves i have complete respect for them and their products. as for the members in here , ditto. so, my intentions were not to create or perpetuate any arguement. the "ford chevy" thing i wasnt trying to be funny, different types of stove have differing charactoristics in heating. steel units tend to heat up faster, soapstone units slower but provide a softer heat and tend to hold heat longer as the fire dies. cast units are kinda in between that. as for actual quality differences between the types, i dont expect that its greater or lesser , just different.


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## BIGDADDY (Nov 19, 2012)

rideau said:


> I understood Mike to be dealing with the issue of whether cast or steel made a better stove, and interpreted his statement to mean that, given the same quality of build, both cast and steel stoves can today be manufactured to last a lifetime.  The material is not the determining factor in the life of the stove.
> He does not indicate that the quality of the build or the level of manufacturer response to issues is not a significant factor.
> I didn't interpret his statement as an attempt to place a value on every stove manufactured.
> Nor did I interpret it as a statement dealing with his company's product.
> ...




Well I'm not out to upset anyone. Mike made a statement and I asked him a question. Duh took it upon himself to tell me I shouldn't be asking Mike a question but according to you duh has a right to respond to my post And he is telling me not to make the post. Don't ask Mike's time is so valuable and so on. Read the post.
So I ask duh to let Mike answer the question I asked but duh isn't satisfied and continues to make comments to my post. If a man asks you to let it be and let Mike respond ,would you continue making comments?

Duh wants to tell me I can't ask a question and you write your whole post to me and leave out the blatant fact that duh wasn't just responding to a post he absolutely told me I shouldn't pose the question. So hey I get it. 

I wanted to really know what Mike thought but duh pissed me off and I said what I said. As far as I'm concerned  that is the end of it. No problem for me. I really lost interest in my original question to Mike. 
I would apologize to Mike but I was just asking him a question about a post of HIS I read.


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## ddddddden (Nov 19, 2012)

If you don't like steel stoves, you are free to say so. And you did. And Mike posted his opinion on steel vs. iron.
To continue with questions phrased like this


BIGDADDY said:


> Does that mean you don't think the stoves you sell are better then another stove?


is just obnoxious.
And I'm free to say that I don't appreciate you harassing one of the very few manufacturers who takes time to post in this forum.


Disclaimer: I do not own a steel stove, and I know Mike only by his reputation here, which is excellent.


I won't be posting further off-topic in CR250's thread.
Please excuse the interruption.


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## BrowningBAR (Nov 19, 2012)

BIGDADDY said:


> I know many people here have steel stoves but I would not buy one. I was reading your posts and saw that you are going to save some money on a chimney installation. My suggestion to you is to spend 1500 to 2500 and buy a cast iron stove. *It will last longer* and look nicer and I think provide better heat.


As a current owner of both, steel and cast stoves, that is inaccurate.


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## stoveguy2esw (Nov 19, 2012)

ok guys, im running outta olive branches  here and i really do not want this thread to get ax'ed as the OP has a legit question and some things we need to get cleared up for him.

devolving into an arguement about my opinion on stoves aint helping. let get back to helping


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## BrowningBAR (Nov 19, 2012)

BIGDADDY said:


> I know you don't know the answer to that. It's kinda like when a child looks at a cow and a bull and doesn't really know the difference. Some people know the difference. Some people know when to shut up and some just keep on even after being ask nicely to but out. But you're a real pal of Mike's and you know his internal thought processes. Tell Mike I don't like those same as every other stoves. None better then any other.
> Thanks buddie


 
Your entire string of posts in this thread are full of insults, condescending tones, wrong information and bad examples. Not one of your posts in this thread offered anything of value or aided the original poster in their needs.

Spend less time insulting other posters and a little more time reading.

"Thanks buddie"


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## BIGDADDY (Nov 19, 2012)

BrowningBAR said:


> Your entire string of posts in this thread are full of insults, condescending tones, wrong information and bad examples. Not one of your posts in this thread offered anything of value or aided the original poster in their needs.
> 
> Spend less time insulting other posters and a little more time reading.
> 
> ...


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## BIGDADDY (Nov 20, 2012)

I don't think all stoves are the same. Do you think they are? I know some cost more then others. Usually a higher price is indicative of a better quality product. Better materials better construction are part of the quality.Stoves are not the only product with varying prices. Homes , automobiles , clothing and numerous other items. You don't get a Porsche for a ford escort price. Is one better then the other?Will one last longer then the other? I suppose that's open to opinion . 
I think you get what you pay for but thats my opinion. I just don't believe a $800 steel stove is the same or will operate the same or last the same or be the same quality as a $2500 cast iron stove. 
But by all means feel free to believe whatever you want and spend your money on whatever you want.


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## BrowningBAR (Nov 20, 2012)

BIGDADDY said:


> I don't think all stoves are the same. Do you think they are? I know some cost more then others. Usually a higher price is indicative of a better quality product. Better materials better construction are part of the quality.Stoves are not the only product with varying prices. Homes , automobiles , clothing and numerous other items. You don't get a Porsche for a ford escort price. Is one better then the other?Will one last longer then the other? I suppose that's open to opinion .
> I think you get what you pay for but thats my opinion. I just don't believe a $800 steel stove is the same or will operate the same or last the same or be the same quality as a $2500 cast iron stove.
> But by all means feel free to believe whatever you want and spend your money on whatever you want.


Which is better:
Vermont Castings Defiant
England 30NC


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## BIGDADDY (Nov 20, 2012)

BrowningBAR said:


> Which is better:
> Vermont Castings Defiant
> England 30NC




I could only give you my opinion but I already did.


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## raybonz (Nov 20, 2012)

Price doesn't always dictate quality. Let's look at Woodstock soapstone stoves for example. They sell direct to the end user eliminating profits to distributors and stove dealers. This keeps the prices reasonable without sacrificing quality. Home Depot and Lowes and some other box stores also offer good value on the Englander stoves and other good stoves. Englander and Woodstock offer excellent customer support as well. As BB points out you can also buy used and some have bought rebuilt stoves.

Ray


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## ScotO (Nov 20, 2012)

I can tell ya I spent some big money on my Napoleons (both the 1900p and the NZ3000), and they are steel stoves that really amaze me to pieces.  It'll be going on 5 seasons this winter and the 1900 heats my house like nobody's business.  The NZ already has me impressed after a couple days of test firings, and it's very well built with a lifetime warranty on the firebox and quite a few of the internals.  That's as good as anything for me.  I guess the bottom line is there are pro's and con's to every stove, like the Ford/Chevy thing mentioned earlier.

As for Mike, he's got a rock-solid reputation (stove manufacturing aside).  I've NEVER seen him advertise or promote his products.  NEVER.

Back to the original poster, that air-cooled pipe from the old ZC fireplace needs to go.  Get class A and never worry again.  Take Mike's advice and talk with him before you proceed.


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## BrowningBAR (Nov 20, 2012)

BIGDADDY said:


> I could only give you my opinion but I already did.


So, you're trying to tell me that the VC stove is well worth the extra $1500 to $2000? Even with the more expensive upkeep? The quality control issues that VC has had? The labor intensive maintenance (that is beyond the ability of 99% of the owners out there)?

How about the fact that I was able to pick up a 5 year old VC Defiant for $400? Is that a true indicator of quality and value that a stove that went for $2,700 new could be had for $2,300 discount?

And, I am assuming the Blaze King steel stove that goes for $3,500-$4,000 is better than any cast iron stove available as you will be hard pressed to find a cast iron stove more expensive on the East Coast.


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## BIGDADDY (Nov 20, 2012)

BrowningBAR said:


> So, you're trying to tell me that the VC stove is well worth the extra $1500 to $2000? Even with the more expensive upkeep? The quality control issues that VC has had? The labor intensive maintenance (that is beyond the ability of 99% of the owners out there)?
> 
> How about the fact that I was able to pick up a 5 year old VC Defiant for $400? Is that a true indicator of quality and value that a stove that went for $2,700 new could be had for $2,300 discount?
> 
> And, I am assuming the Blaze King steel stove that goes for $3,500-$4,000 is better than any cast iron stove available as you will be hard pressed to find a cast iron stove more expensive on the East Coast.




I'm not trying to tell you anything. I simply stated my opinion. I hope that's OK.


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## raybonz (Nov 20, 2012)

Opinions are fine and welcome as this is how we learn things.. I assume you're in the market for a stove BD?

Ray


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## BrowningBAR (Nov 20, 2012)

BIGDADDY said:


> I'm not trying to tell you anything. I simply stated my opinion. I hope that's OK.


I like how you threw a bunch of insults, claimed the issue was black and white, and then when examples are made to highlight how your statements are wrong, you throw up the "I simply stated my opinion."

Your opinion was insulting and offered a lot of poor information. Also, calling the poster "Duh" wasn't cute or entertaining. Stop being an ass.


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## ScotO (Nov 20, 2012)

BD, you can't deny that BBar has a valid point.  Let's get this post back on the rails for the OP's sake so he don't burn his house down.......

Water under the bridge, as they say.....


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## raybonz (Nov 20, 2012)

Apparently I missed part of this thread.. I see what you mean now..

Ray


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## BIGDADDY (Nov 20, 2012)

raybonz said:


> Price doesn't always dictate quality. Let's look at Woodstock soapstone stoves for example. They sell direct to the end user eliminating profits to distributors and stove dealers. This keeps the prices reasonable without sacrificing quality. Home Depot and Lowes and some other box stores also offer good value on the Englander stoves and other good stoves. Englander and Woodstock offer excellent customer support as well. As BB points out you can also buy used and some have bought rebuilt stoves.
> 
> Ray



Yes price doesn't always dictate quality but most time it is an indicator of quality. You wouldn't expect to pay the same for a cord of pine as you would a cord of oak. I'm  not saying buy the most expensive stove , but don't buy the cheapest stove you can find and think its as good as any other if you are buying new.
You can find used stoves on Craiglist and such places. Some at very discounted prices. Could be many reasons for that from lack of knowledge on operating to personal problems.


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## BIGDADDY (Nov 20, 2012)

BrowningBAR said:


> I like how you threw a bunch of insults, claimed the issue was black and white, and then when examples are made to highlight how your statements are wrong, you throw up the "I simply stated my opinion."
> 
> Your opinion was insulting and offered a lot of poor information. Also, calling the poster "Duh" wasn't cute or entertaining. Stop being an ass.




Ok you're right. I am wrong. The earlier posts I made I made in haste and some bit of agitation. I tried to explain why and what bothered me , but according to you I'm an obnoxious ass. I will try to be better. 
When I get irritated I don't try to be cute or entertaining. So I hope you can give me a break.


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## ScotO (Nov 20, 2012)

BIGDADDY said:


> Ok you're right. I am wrong. The earlier posts I made I made in haste and some bit of agitation. I tried to explain why and what bothered me , but according to you I'm an obnoxious ass. I will try to be better.
> When I get irritated I don't try to be cute or entertaining. So I hope you can give me a break.


 BD, you know where we go when we get irritated!  Over to the Ash Can......


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