# Natural Gas Costs in New England......



## webbie (Dec 15, 2007)

Just got my gas bill and figured the cost......just for comparisons sake!
Some folks pay more, some less....but,

It is about $1.50 per 100,000 BTU's when everything is figured in.

That, in my opinion, is a decent price considering oil and other high costs.

That is the equiv. of:

About $2.10 a gallon for oil
About $1.38 for LP (no way, jose, on either of those!)

Or, to replace that $1.50 worth of gas (with efficiency figured in) , I would need:
13 lbs of pellets (1/3 bag) - so about $225-$230 a ton (so pellets are about the same cost)
20 lbs of wood - or 1/150th of a cord of hardwood - so about $1.00 worth of wood at $150 a cord (a cheap price for wood - but at that price, it would be a little less than gas, of course depending on the efficiency)

If I had electric resistance heat or a plug-in space heater, and paid 12 cents a KWH, it would cost about:
$3.00 to replace that heat that I am paying $1.50 for (efficiency figured in)

Anyway, just a spot in time - this month I am happy about the relatively low bill....


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## jgoodnow (Dec 15, 2007)

Hi Craig,

Your gas & electric are cheap compared to mine.  Gas (KEYSPAN) costs me $1.73/therm (1 therm = 100,000 BTU) and electricity (NSTAR) is $0.185/kWh. Electricity is also over 3 times more expensive than gas per unit of energy coming into the house.  I monitor our gas usage closely to track changes resulting from energy efficiency projects. Insulating and air sealing an old house have got to be the most cost-effective projects you can do and I'm seeing this in our reduced gas bills.

First post, BTW.  I've been lurking/researching for about a month and recently purchased a Jotul Kennebec (after reading all references to "Kennebec" on hearth.com, of course). One of these days I hope to make a post about high R-value flush hearth construction. Meeting the Kennebec's 2.92 R-value spec in a thin hearth is no small challenge.


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## webbie (Dec 15, 2007)

The electric might be 3x, but the efficiency brings it down to closer to 2.5......

And, welcome.

Out here (Holyoke Gas), the price initially is up where you mention, but since everyone is late paying their bill, you get a vast discount - something like $.22 a therm, for paying within 10 days. 

Since our house is newer - and zoned (even though it is hot air heat), the gas use is low. Much lower than my house in a warmer clime was (southern NJ). The furnace and hot water heater are both 90% efficient.

Of course, nothing beats free wood - and even if you can't get all your wood free, it certainly is nice when you get it by the side of the road. So far, I have never found any heating oil or pellets there......
 :coolgrin: 

Conservation and insulation may not be "cool" , but it is probably the most effective use of money and time in terms of "green" upgrades. It really angered me when the VP said that "conservation may be a virtue, but not an energy policy" - that statement could not be more wrong! After all, why does he think Boeing keeps building jets with more MPG?


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## jgoodnow (Dec 15, 2007)

Do you have any idea of your heating-only gas consumption in normalized terns, say BTU per square foot per year? Mine is a bit less than 85,000 BTU per square foot per year (years 2002-2006, prior to insulation and new windows). I have no idea how this compares to other houses.  I'm also finding that I must further normalize by heating degree days in order to track my own gas consumption over time.


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## downeast (Dec 15, 2007)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Out here (Holyoke Gas), the price initially is up where you mention, but since everyone is late paying their bill, you get a vast discount - something like $.22 a therm, for paying within 10 days.
> Since our house is newer - and zoned (even though it is hot air heat), the gas use is low. Much lower than my house in a warmer clime was (southern NJ). The furnace and hot water heater are both 90% efficient.
> Of course, *nothing beats free wood *- and even if you can't get all your wood free, it certainly is nice when you get it by the side of the road. So far, I have never found any heating oil or pellets there...... :coolgrin:
> *Conservation and insulation may not be "cool" , but it is probably the most effective use of money and time *in terms of "green" upgrades. It really angered me when *the VP said that "conservation may be a virtue, but not an energy policy*" - that statement could not be more wrong! After all, why does he think Boeing keeps building jets with more MPG?



Forest Gump: "stupid is as stupid does", that VP needs a dope slap.  %-P We were suprised that the northern European houses being built have little real insulation compared to what we do here. Their explanation is that their electricity costs--most homes use electric heat-- are subsidized by their government.

Energy cost comparison: Maine costs are the highest in the U.S.  Heating oil  *$3.60/g*, LP/propane  *$2.99/g*, 
electricity @  *.14/kw hr*. And it is all "deregulated" by our state agencies along with underpants -taxed, food- taxed, liquor- price fixed (we have to make booze runs to N.H.), health premiums- "regulated". 

"Free" wood Craig can be good for the little body, no ? :lol:


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## iceman (Dec 15, 2007)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> The electric might be 3x, but the efficiency brings it down to closer to 2.5......
> 
> And, welcome.
> 
> ...



of geez your in holyoke.... thats not fair ... your gas is always cheaper your G&E;are a lot less than us Baystate gas and Wmeco prices...
man  i wish i was you


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## webbie (Dec 15, 2007)

Ain't in Holyoke, but in southampton (over the hills) ,we get our water and gas from Holyoke Utilities.

Have not calculated per square foot, but I will try it at least by the month for a cold month (the next bill), and try to take out the hot water, cooking and dryer. 
We also have a gas fireplace - probably 35,000 BTU input, which we use maybe 1 hour per day....not as efficient as our furnace, but still a nice source of warmth and radiation. 

As I said, all in all I am pleased with the price (of the gas).....considering the weather and the fact that we work at home, so are here using the energy almost 100% of the time. The house is 2800 sq. ft, but that does not include my office and music room....but I only heat a little nook corner of my office  where I sit - with a unit heater that runs from the hot water heater tank.


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## webbie (Dec 15, 2007)

downeast said:
			
		

> We were suprised that the northern European houses being built have little real insulation compared to what we do here. Their explanation is that their electricity costs--most homes use electric heat-- are subsidized by their government.



That doesn't make sense.......they use about 1/2 the ENERGY per capita as we do, so that covers the whole gamut. In Denmark, which is northern europe, hot water heat is the norm, produced by local plants (district heating) with gas, oil, or even wood chips. Germany (northern europe) is the world leader in installation of renewable sources, and also pretty good in conservation.

Are you talking about Norway where they might have some excess Hydro, or are they using windmills in other areas to generate electric (a good reason for a subsidy?)....

Explain....

"Denmark

In Denmark district heating covers more than 60 % of space heating and water heating.[2] In 2005 82.4 % of this heat was produced on combined heat and power plants. Heat recovered from waste incineration accounted for 22.9 % of the total Danish district heat production.[3] Most major cities in Denmark have big district heating networks including transmission networks operation with up to 125 °C and 25 bar pressure and distribution networks operating with up to 95 °C and between 6 and 10 bar pressure. The largest district heating system in Denmark is in the Copenhagen area operated by CTR I/S and VEKS I/S. In central Copenhagen the CTR network covers 275.000 households (90-95 % of the areas population) through one network of 54 km district heating distribution pipes providing a peak delivery of 663 MW.[4] The consumer price of heat from CTR is approximately €42 per MWh plus taxes.[5]

Finland

In Finland district heating accounts for about 50 per cent of the total heating market [6]. Over 90 per cent of apartment blocks, more than half of all terraced houses, and the bulk of public buildings and business premises are connected to a district heating network. Natural Gas is mostly used in areas to the south east gas pipeline network, imported coal is used in areas close to ports, and peat is used in northern areas where peat is a natural resource. However, other renewables such as wood chips and other paper industry combustible by-products are used, as is the energy recovered by the incineration of municipal solid waste. In some towns, waste incineration can contribute as much as 8% of the district heating heat requirement. Availability is 99.98% and disruptions when they do occur usually reduce temperatures by only a few degrees[7]."


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## iceman (Dec 15, 2007)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Ain't in Holyoke, but in southampton (over the hills) ,we get our water and gas from Holyoke Utilities.
> 
> Have not calculated per square foot, but I will try it at least by the month for a cold month (the next bill), and try to take out the hot water, cooking and dryer.
> We also have a gas fireplace - probably 35,000 BTU input, which we use maybe 1 hour per day....not as efficient as our furnace, but still a nice source of warmth and radiation.
> ...



okokokok but i am still jealous because you pay less than i do


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## minesmoria (Dec 15, 2007)

The electric baseboard heaters, i use in my bedroom as the stove is on the other side of the house.

The cost here in bc canada is 6 cents kwh


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## Webwidow (Dec 15, 2007)

We can't hook up to Holyoke electric, they do not service our area, believe me I have tried.Our gas bill is awesome. If we pay within 2 weeks we get a nice discount too. Craig for clarification, our water bill is not from Holyoke but our dearly loved S'hampt water dept. (enterprise account) whose rates have gone up 100% since moving here!  I'll hold off on this topic until spring.


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## Jabberwocky (Dec 15, 2007)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Just got my gas bill and figured the cost......just for comparisons sake!
> Some folks pay more, some less....but,
> 
> It is about $1.50 per 100,000 BTU's when everything is figured in.



That's some cheap gas!

My new bill is $1.93 per "therm". 1 "therm" = 100,000 btus also figuring everything in.

electricity is running $0.10875 / kwh. ouch!


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## WILDSOURDOUGH (Dec 16, 2007)

I don't remember what I figured out our electric came out to last month, but do remember that
it was something like $55.00 for the actual eletricity and $65.00 for the fees.... do you add in or 
divide out the fees when you are quoting KWHs ?
I will look mine up and post again.


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## stick burner (Dec 16, 2007)

After getting the great deal on the cord of mulberry wood a couple of weeks ago ($75), I asked my bbq wood supplier if he ever had mulberry to sell.  There's lots of it around here.  The answer was yes.  We made a deal.  $100 per cord, if he didn't have to split it, and he would dump it off at my house.  Since I bought the DR splitter, I can't refuse a deal like that.  Sweet.

Stickburner


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## downeast (Dec 16, 2007)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> downeast said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As was said Craig, energy costs are subsidized by those nations. The average net tax is easily 60+ % of gross income. 
Energy costs are low in cities as you found. Homes and apartments are about 1/2 what we have as a norm. 
Oh, France uses nukes for ~ 80% of their energy needs, and has for a generation.
European homes are constructed with little insulation as we have as codes and norms. In overseas assignments, and lately, fun travel, I go to construction sites --commercial or residential--just "to see".  Hot water is normally heated with electricity in most homes, offices, apartments. The goverments pay out of the very high taxation. European construction is years behind us in tight, energy efficient building techniques.  For us, R30 roofs, and R19 walls are minimal. Hollow "cinder blocks" are the norm in all of the buildings I've visited under construction in Norway, Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Spain, Italy in the past 10 years. Most recently in Austria. 
The average car is smaller, but so many more of then in all parts of Europe. Traffic problems and pollution are endemic in Rome, Vienna, Madird for example. The catalytic technology came from our car industry BTW.
Wood in Europe: there ain't none for firewood or lumber. Europeans we know, use tiny twigs and branches in their very efficient Kacheloffen or "thermal mass" stoves. Most homes in fact are not centrally heated: like here generations ago, one room is heated by those wood stoves.....or use electric supplied hot water heat as you said.
Hey Craig, we have most things done correctly. Most of world wants what we have...or migrate here. Perfect ? No. The best so far ? Where else would you want to exist ? Maybe New Zealand ?
MERRY CHRISTMAS !


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## webbie (Dec 16, 2007)

Downeast, didn't take you 10 posts to get into "love it or leave it!"......

We were talking about Energy Costs and the way folks heat in Northern Europe. As you can see by the "facts" (small things, just a bother sometimes), the heat is these areas of northern Europe is  gotten in a more efficient and less polluting way than we often do...and, I might say, a more comfortable one (hot water heat, as opposed to hot air heat)...

If you want to debate the quality of life in Coastal Maine against that in Paris, that is Ash Can materials...or maybe not even that.

If we (American) get on the right track we can kick the butts of much of the industrialized world when it comes to a lot of things, but we are not doing so in an organized fashion (regional planning, mass transit, energy, etc.). Doesn't mean we will lose the "war" - the private sector just by itself may end up "saving" us, even without subsidy. But it certainly would be a shame to watch us get 1/2 way there, and then have the rug pulled out because the Saudis and Chavez (OPEC) didn't like the idea that we were saving so much.

So that is where I stand and the "side" that I am on - then again. If you are on the "there is always another forest over the next mountain, so burn it up" end of things...well, from Maine that might be what the view is...

So let's see if you can make it to 50 or 100 posts without getting too personal.


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## downeast (Dec 16, 2007)

No personal argument Craig. But let's not glorify European energy use and gestalt compaparing it to our systems before seeing it in action. I have (except for Denmark and Finland, haven't been yet) . The "facts" noted about Finland and Denmark are not sourced. 
No glorification of anything except reasonable discussion. Not personal at all. From my time overseas, what we have is not perfect, yet not bad compared to most other countries. Rose colored views. No. 
How many do you know who do what they preach ? All wood heat sustainably harvested, tankless hot water, all CFL's, tight heavily insulated small footprint home, fuel efficient cars, walk or bike when possible. Hey, *that's* very personal.


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## webbie (Dec 16, 2007)

In Europe, it is not as personal. It is a group effort - you will give me that (hopefully) and that is what I am getting at. While it may seem that an individual in Maine - arguable the most "individual" state in the country, can affect our energy use by chopping and carrying wood, I would invite you to take a trip through this fine land. Go to coastal SC where they are building 3-5 millions dollar houses with lots of windows and high ceilings - for folks who are gonna use them 3 months (at most) a year -oh, and the boat is parked out back. So in an (argumentative) sense, you are saving enough energy in a year to allow him one trip out to the continental shelf....for some beer and fishing.....

Point is, personal behavior -  when we are talking about 300 million plus people - is almost impossible to regulate. I can tell you with certainty that conservation and energy are not on the minds of these millions of folks. Large cars, long trips, boats, air conditioning...that is what is on their minds.

So, IMHO, a large scale problem needs large scale answers. Yes, it does help for each person to recycle something...but it helps a lot more for the manufacturer to use less (and greener) packaging. So I guess I should repeat that I think the answer lies in technology. But we need to get behind the changes needed to make certain a lot of that technology is invented and produced here. 

To put it in a sentence, the engineer who make a car produce 1% less pollution or makes an internal combustion engine 2% more efficient, does more to save the world than someone who keeps their house at 62. That would be less true if we ALL kept our houses at 62, but we don't. And I would cheer that engineer even if he flew around in a private jet - because that would mean his ideas and inventions would spread faster!

Complicated, I know. But the world is a big place and does not turn on a dime, and while I do believe individual consciousness is 100% important as to who we each are (in terms of sanity, knowledge, etc.) , there is a group dynamic when it comes to these BIG ideas....


Wow, we are getting hit HARD with this storm.....big time white out! Windy too.


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## downeast (Dec 16, 2007)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> In Europe, it is not as personal. *It is a group effort *- you will give me that (hopefully) and that is what I am getting at. While it may seem that an individual in Maine - arguable the most "individual" state in the country, can affect our energy use by *chopping and carrying wood,* I would invite you to take a trip through this fine land. Go to coastal SC where they are *building 3-5 millions dollar houses with lots of windows and high ceilings *- for folks who are gonna use them 3 months (at most) a year -oh, and the boat is parked out back. So in an (argumentative) sense, you are saving enough energy in a year to allow him one trip out to the continental shelf....for *some beer and fishing.....*
> 
> Point is, personal behavior -  when we are talking about 300 million plus people - is almost impossible to regulate. I can tell you with certainty that *conservation and energy are not on the minds of these millions of folks. Large cars, long trips, boats, air conditioning...that is what is on their minds.*
> So, IMHO, a large scale problem needs large scale answers. Yes, it does help for each person to recycle something...but it helps a lot more for the manufacturer to use less (and greener) packaging. So I guess I should repeat that I think the answer lies in technology. But we need to get behind the changes needed to make certain a lot of that technology is invented and produced here.
> ...



We agree, damn it.  :bug: 
Europeans want the same lifestyle, conveniences, wealth. They are not thinking about much except for what most democracies under Capitalism desire: a good life. (Scott and Helen Nearing, real inherited wealth Socialists, "Living the Good Life" lived a couple of miles from us). Stories to tell in the Ash Can if you're interested.
But: those profligate "rich" consumers do one big thing: make jobs, build a great economy, develop technology to save lives, make life better.....mostly.
There's no "housing crisis" here. McMansions and McYachts are running full bore out for years' of work for local contractors. A  McMansion up the road we call the "Monday House": has 7 (count 'em) bathrooms "for the grandkids". Took 3 1/2 years and $4.5 million. The mega yachts on the Riviera we saw last Spring were like jetsum in the marinas. There is nothing like that in N. America. Real conspicuous consumption --chopper pads onboard, "dinghies" over 25'. 
So, ain't freedom grand ?


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## jgoodnow (Dec 16, 2007)

Here is some U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) data on Northern European per capita energy consumption:

Source: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/energyconsumption.html
Table 1c, _Per Capita (Per Person) Total Primary Energy Consumption (Million Btu per Person), All Countries, 1980-2005_

2005 Data, Million BTU per person per year

Denmark: 153.0
Finland: 241.5
Iceland: 489.6
Ireland: 164.1
Norway: 455.7
Sweden: 259.9
United Kingdom: 165.7

All Europe: 146.4
United States: 340.5
Canada: 436.2
North America: 280.3
World: 71.8

From this data, it is clear that the U.S. is not doing better than most Northern European countries, except for Iceland and Norway. Iceland is endowed with abundant geothermal energy resources, while Norway is a major oil producer.

There is also another table which shows energy intensity, that is, the amount of energy required to produce one dollar of gross domestic product. The U.S. does better in this category but is still not as efficient as most Northern European countries or Europe as a whole.


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