# Any Harman Owners Using Portable Generators?



## Rokal (Oct 31, 2011)

I am looking for a portable genny to power my Harman XXV in the event of a power outage.  Can anyone recommend a reasonably priced generator that will work well with Harman stoves?

Do I need to buy an inverter generator?    


Would this work for $299?
http://www.tractorsupply.com/gas-di...-trade-3500w-4000w-portable-generator-4434023

Also looking at an inverter generator:
http://www.amazon.com/Champion-Equipment-4-Stroke-Generator-Compliant/dp/B0041K09D8


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## egrims (Oct 31, 2011)

I'm actually looking for one now too with all the crazy weather we've been having.  I managed to espace the power outage this time around but I lost a bunch of food in that hurricane earlier in the year.  I'm looking to do both the stove and the fridge with some overhead in case I need to throw the sub-pump on there for a few minutes.  Been looking at this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Generac-5982-...JHSU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1320089119&sr=8-1

Amazon has it for $420 from them with free shipping but they are currently out of stock.  I'm pretty sure they were in stock this morning too...should have pulled the trigger.


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## egrims (Oct 31, 2011)

Another good site that has decent prices and that I've heard nothing but good things about is Electric Generators Direct:

http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/


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## gbreda (Oct 31, 2011)

I believe that an inverter with true sine wave power is strongly recommended for a Harmon.  That logic board runs everything.


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## egrims (Oct 31, 2011)

Do you know of one that they recommend?

I know someone who runs his Accentra Insert off a generator like the one in the link, not to say that it's the correct or best thing for it though...


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## gbreda (Oct 31, 2011)

I don't have a generator for mine, so I cant recommend one from experience.  Been lucky on power outages being short enough to endure, but that will run out eventually.  Personally, I would prefer a Honda with inverter (the EU versions) but they are not cheap and I cant afford one at this time, especially since I would want something more than for just the stove.

The EU2000 would work fine for the stove and maybe a couple of other smaller items.


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## egrims (Oct 31, 2011)

Yea I'm looking more closely at those now.  Of course Honda doesn't let anyone post the prices on-line so you have to talk to someone or get a quote.  Seeing what they say now.  I like the fact that you can join the EU's together with a parallel cable in case you ever wanted to add some more juice to your setup.

The generac's look nice for the price but apparently they are made oversea's and some people have given bad reviews, although there are plenty more good reviews then bad...decisions decisions.


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## roadking88 (Oct 31, 2011)

i run a 4000 watt lincoln with mine..because it's a welder it's rated higher than 4k..
back feed the whole house
runs water pump boiler tv lights, everything..
during the summer even had the pool pump and dehumidifier on and didn't realize it..lol


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## Rokal (Oct 31, 2011)

egrims said:
			
		

> I'm actually looking for one now too with all the crazy weather we've been having.  I managed to espace the power outage this time around but I lost a bunch of food in that hurricane earlier in the year.  I'm looking to do both the stove and the fridge with some overhead in case I need to throw the sub-pump on there for a few minutes.  Been looking at this one:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Generac-5982-...JHSU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1320089119&sr=8-1
> 
> Amazon has it for $420 from them with free shipping but they are currently out of stock.  I'm pretty sure they were in stock this morning too...should have pulled the trigger.



I have read that a generator should have less than 5% total harmonic distortion (THD) to safely power sensitive electronic equipment.   If this is true, you would need to be looking at the Generac "XP" series rather than the "GP" (general purpose) series.  The "XP" series is much more expensive.

Otherwise, the Generac "IX" series (inverter generator) has less than 3% THD.  However, there are a lot of negative reviews about this line.

Hopefully, some Harman owners with tried-and-true experience will chime in.


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## m159267 (Oct 31, 2011)

Not cheap but I purchased the Honda 2000i specifically for my Harman P-38. We tend to have 1-2 extended power outages per winter. I am in the process of adding a transfer switch by my electrical panel that will make it easy to power not only the Harman but also my refrigerator & upstairs EPA fireplace blower. That will keep the beer cold and the house warm....


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## ehkewley (Oct 31, 2011)

I purchased a cheap cheap cheap 1500 watt generator from Tractor Supply (2nd one left) for $199. It's a Sportsman Portable Generator. It's had a mix of good and bad reviews. It appears to be due to terrible QC on the product line. I get about 10 hours out of 1.5 gallons of gas, and it's powering the P38, the hot water heater (gas), a couple lights, fans ,and laptops. I could run a bit more, but am enjoying the low fuel rate considering the ultra long lines at the gas stations. I drove around southern NH (hollis, merrimack, nashua, amherst, bedford ) but didn't find many that weren't quite busy.

I'm not sure how many others are running cheap generators. I have the surge protector inline, but the power is anything but clean. The stove objects a bit from time to time, but it's running like a champ.


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## wilburg (Oct 31, 2011)

I have no choice, been out of power since Saturday... I'm running the pellet stove on a 15 year old yamaha Genny... Don't know about sin waves... But I do know flame.... And I have been warm... If I fry the board... I'll have to deal with it when it happens.... Since I can be out for three more days I pray that the board holds up...


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## Fire (Oct 31, 2011)

Honda EU Series is the best. Inverter with sine wave technology is the safest for the stove. I have an EU2000I,  and have used it with my Harman Advance.


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## lbcynya (Nov 1, 2011)

Most cheap generators are only suitable for inductive loads...in other words, light bulbs, small heaters, motors, etc.  Running a cheap genny will not cause your electronics to fail right away, it's a bit of a "slow burn"...  Bad power over long periods will cause the electronics to fail prematurely.  How do you define prematurely?  I say, "later and when you least expect it".  Then Harman will get a bad rap because the circuit board failed "for no reason".  If a cheap genny would blow your electronics immediately, we wouldn't be having this discussion...  My 2 cents.  

PS - I sell surge suppressors for industrial applications...for CNC machines with 24 volt electronics...


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## St_Earl (Nov 1, 2011)

lbcynya said:
			
		

> Most cheap generators are only suitable for inductive loads...in other words, light bulbs, small heaters, motors, etc.  Running a cheap genny will not cause your electronics to fail right away, it's a bit of a "slow burn"...  Bad power over long periods will cause the electronics to fail prematurely.  How do you define prematurely?  I say, "later and when you least expect it".  Then Harman will get a bad rap because the circuit board failed "for no reason".  If a cheap genny would blow your electronics immediately, we wouldn't be having this discussion...  My 2 cents.
> 
> PS - I sell surge suppressors for industrial applications...for CNC machines with 24 volt electronics...



i simply can't afford a honda with all the money we are putting into the new house.
but i would really like your opinion of just the "clean" aspect of these gennys-

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200419022_200419022  $299 with $79 shipping (amazon) or $84 shipping northern tools (seller is northern tools on amazon too)
i'm more comfortable with these over the low end generac ix series (not american made like generac's better models)
as these appear to have much better motors and much better reviews compared to the generac ix series.
you can get higher wattage units of the same design too.

quote from the blurb on the powerhorse page-
"...you can count on it to generate clean electricity with a smoother output to safely run sensitive electronics, producing less than 5% total harmonic distortion at full load"

is that level of "clean" good enough?

i haven't yet found (for comparison) the figure on % distortion that the hondas produce.

*edit. i'm finding more info.
it looks 5% or less is what is considered safe.
and one citation saying briggs and stratton give a range of from 3% to 6%  thd on their rigs.
http://www.aboutgenerators.com/harmonic-distortion-for-the-briggs-stratton-pro-series-30338.html

this briggs and stratton is a bit more expensive. but far less than a honda.
it's still more than i want to spend now. but looks like a decent alternative to the honda if you want to spend less but still go with a non chinese made unit.
http://www.amazon.com/Briggs-Stratton-Portable-Inverter-Generator/dp/B0037C18U4


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## LIpelletpig (Nov 1, 2011)

Honda EU1000


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## BrotherBart (Nov 1, 2011)

lbcynya said:
			
		

> Most cheap generators are only suitable for inductive loads...in other words, light bulbs, small heaters, motors, etc.  Running a cheap genny will not cause your electronics to fail right away, it's a bit of a "slow burn"...  Bad power over long periods will cause the electronics to fail prematurely.  How do you define prematurely?  I say, "later and when you least expect it".  Then Harman will get a bad rap because the circuit board failed "for no reason".  If a cheap genny would blow your electronics immediately, we wouldn't be having this discussion...  My 2 cents.
> 
> PS - I sell surge suppressors for industrial applications...for CNC machines with 24 volt electronics...



And how much "dirty power" do you see with line current?


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## lbcynya (Nov 1, 2011)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverter_(electrical)

Buy the best generator you can afford and be prepared to accept that electrical issues >could<<< pop up over the long run.  6% THD is the highest "accpeptable" limit, so 5% THD is a little better.  Invertor generators produce less than 3% THD which is similar to grid power. 

Regardless, invertor generators product 12 volt power and use high qualty electronics to convert the DC to AC.  The higher quality the generator the better the electronics resulting in cleaner power.  Some generators "fake" it and those are typically 500 bucks or less.

It's a debate that will rage on.  Affordability is a big issue and I understand that.  Everyting is a calculated risk.  Find out how much a new board is for the stove and weigh the potential costs. 

Weigh the costs and go with your gut...


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## St_Earl (Nov 1, 2011)

at the risk of totally beating a dead horse, do you think a stove like mine, heatilator ps50, with fewer and less sophisticated electronics, would have a little greater tolerance for these small margins difference in thd?
i know the thread author was referring to his own harman. perhaps this applies on the other side of my question. i.e. sensitivity.


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## XXV-AK (Nov 1, 2011)

I have the Honda EU3000i and the APC BACK-UPS XS 1000 which has the AVR and 20-30 back power. Gives me time to hook the genny up and not miss a beat.


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## lbcynya (Nov 1, 2011)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> lbcynya said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Plenty  I'm most cases power fluctuations are a bigger problem. Also, a good amount of noise, 'dirt', etc. comes from within the facility itself.


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## RKS130 (Nov 1, 2011)

I bought our generator in October 1996 when my wife was VERY pregnant with our twins and we came home from a trip to DC to find no power and a basement full of water, ready to swamp our boiler. This was a Friday night.

First thing Saturday morning I was first on line at Sears and snagged the last generator they had, to power the sump pump.

It may not be what I would have picked after careful consideration and shopping, but 15 years later it still works great. I think it is 2400 watts and we made good use of it during hurricane Irene to power fridge, lights, computers and more. I assume, sine waves or not, that it will power my stove as well.

Bottom line - just get something that works.

Yes, my dream is a NG powered generator which will take over at the moment of an outage. But then again . . . I have lots of dreams and lots of other things which will likely come first.


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## bbone (Nov 1, 2011)

Powerhorse from Northern Tool
very clean power,  safe for sensitive electronics,  great price


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## bonesy (Nov 1, 2011)

Last winter when the big ice storm was forecasted for much of NE PA, I went to HD and bought a Rigid electric start 8kw running 10kw peak generator for $1299. It has a Subarau engine. Havn't had to use it yet but it should almost run my entire house minus my geothermal heating and cooling. I will need to use oil filled electric radiators for heat and once I have this Big E installed this week, I can use that in an emergency and blow heat from the garage into the home. I have electric 80gal hot water heater and a well pump. I do not forsee any issues as long as everything doesn't come on at once, which I can control by turning breakers on and off when needed.


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## Bank (Nov 1, 2011)

First off, I am no engineer or electrician, however, my electrician friends did tell me NOT to use my 8,000 watt generac for my Harman Accentra which I bought from electricgeneratorsdirect, which I might add works very well for the rest of the house. I did buy a 1600 watt B&S inverter for my TV and the Harman. Just my $0.02!


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## St_Earl (Nov 1, 2011)

bbone said:
			
		

> Powerhorse from Northern Tool
> very clean power,  safe for sensitive electronics,  great price



^^^this is what i'm leaning toward.  their 2200w surge 1800w running unit.
these really appear to be the best of the lower priced brands. 
like i said, the generac ix series isn't up to the quality of generac's u.s. made models.
and they are expensive for what they are.

that briggs and stratton p2000 is a *very* nice looking unit. less that 3% thd and "only" $649 on ebay.
probably the closest thing to a honda that costs less.


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## Newburydave (Nov 1, 2011)

I just put a P43 into service the day before the big power outage in the northeast. As they say everything in life is timing.

I have an old (c 1987) Generac S4002 two phase contractor worksite generator (Made in USA back then). The P43 worked fine off the generator for the three days it took to get power back.

As per the dealers recommendations I'm running the stove through a surge protector, standard plug style. I don't know anything about the cleanness of the power from my old generator. It was also running my well pump refrigerator and oil burner so I know there were surges and slumps.

Is there any handy way to test the power output? The manual and spec sheet on the generator disappeared years ago.

If my power is too dirty would running my P43 through one of the bottom end UPCs that Harmon sells help do you th


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## wilburg (Nov 1, 2011)

I'm on day 4 without power on a 15 year old yamaha Ef2400A. (not the ie). And my stove is the only source of heat during this Friggen Halloween surprise... I'm warm, family is warm right now that's all that counts.. If my board fries (god forbid) it would still be better than freezing, or the $100+ a night hotel (if I could find one) or worse the shelter.  I bought the stove to heat my house... That's what it is doing... At this point ... If I fry it, and have to throw it in a junk pile and buy a brand new one, i would.... HOWEVER, saying that.. Once this crisis is over.... I have decided to buy the Honda 2000.


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## newf lover (Nov 1, 2011)

Anyone know what the Honda 2000 goes for? My sister has an Accentra and is on day 4 with no power. Too late for this storm, but they are seriously thinking of getting one after this and Hurricane Irene.


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## wilburg (Nov 1, 2011)

You can expect around $950 ... There are other sine wave genny's out there too.. Yamaha, Ryobi (Home depot $599) Generax. Etc....  My yamaha was a top model of its day... Seeing that it's going to be a 20 year investment on something you may critically need in an emergency, I would think the extra $ for quality is well worth it.    You can also get an adapter to add a second 2000, if you want to upgrade, and a system to connect it to a 5 gallon canister.... After fueling my Genny every three hours for four days.. That alone is why I'm going to get the Honda!  Next week if anyone is looking for a Genny, I might have a 15 year old Yamaha for sale


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## Hitch (Nov 1, 2011)

Doesn't running the generator through a good UPS/surge protector (the ones that produce a pure sine wave) safeguard the pellet stove?


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## iron stove (Nov 1, 2011)

Wilburg said:
			
		

> I'm on day 4 without power on a 15 year old yamaha Ef2400A. (not the ie). And my stove is the only source of heat during this Friggen Halloween surprise... I'm warm, family is warm right now that's all that counts.. If my board fries (god forbid) it would still be better than freezing, or the $100+ a night hotel (if I could find one) or worse the shelter.  I bought the stove to heat my house... That's what it is doing... At this point ... If I fry it, and have to throw it in a junk pile and buy a brand new one, i would.... HOWEVER, saying that.. Once this crisis is over.... I have decided to buy the Honda 2000.



I have a Honda 3500 non inverter, and a new Yamaha inverter. 
Truth be told, Honda and Yamaha make the BEST generators, and they usually have good automatic voltage regulation and " Relativly" clean power output as long as they are in tune, and turning the recomended 3600 RPM. For many, many years people had nothing but traditional revolving field generators, and everything survived.
Remember, even the utility company usus old style power generation.


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## chweng (Nov 1, 2011)

I bought the Honda eu2000i for $999...pricey but certainly reliable.  I've been without power since Saturday afternoon and have been running my Accentra FS, a fridge, TV and a couple lights with the Honda.  Times like these, reliable clean power source outways the extra price.  There are aftermarket companies that sell modified fuel caps and larger gas can to attach for really long run times.  After this experience that's my next puchase.  Out of the box this thing fired right up and is really quiet.


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## lbcynya (Nov 1, 2011)

Hitch said:
			
		

> Doesn't running the generator through a good UPS/surge protector (the ones that produce a pure sine wave) safeguard the pellet stove?



Don't believe so.  The clean power is created from the inverter built into the generator.  The generator actually makes 12-14 volts like a car alternator, then the invertor convers the 12v power to 120 volts.  A high quality 1000 or more watt invertor can get expensive in a hurry.  If you find a cheap inverter, then the conversion from 12 v to 120 v suffers, defeating the purpose.  

Sorry, when it comes to clean power, there are NO shortcuts.  Everything has a balance and everything has a price!


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## iron stove (Nov 1, 2011)

Alos, I subscribe to smaller, Higher quality generators, that burn LESS fuel, and will provide power for longer times.  

  Gasoline is in short supply now, LONG lines,  so my generator will supply power 24 hours a day on 5 gallons, where those 5K units will eat 10+ gallons a day.


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## telegirl (Nov 1, 2011)

I am looking at the Honda eu2000i to power my 2 year old st. croix prescott.  Can anyone recommend to me if this will be ok for this stove?  Had an old St.Croix that ran great on non inverted power, but this one is far more complex.  Thanks!


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## lbcynya (Nov 1, 2011)

telegirl said:
			
		

> I am looking at the Honda eu2000i to power my 2 year old st. croix prescott.  Can anyone recommend to me if this will be ok for this stove?  Had an old St.Croix that ran great on non inverted power, but this one is far more complex.  Thanks!



Perfect!  Will run your stove and a few other essentials as well.


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## wilburg (Nov 1, 2011)

Gas is getting scarce .. Come up north... We have less demand, people are waiting in one hour lines in Springfield, but if they just went north a bit more, less lines... Conneticut has it worse then us, I was just called by Wmeco, they told me that I will hopefully have power by Thursday,  Springfield by Saturday... Conneticut, by the springtime.    Yes the 5k'ers eat up alot of fuel, plus I don't think very many have the sine wave power...   My Genny is a bit loud, louder than I like it because we camp with it, but funny enough.. After 4 days... I can't hear it anymore ... Lol


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## telegirl (Nov 1, 2011)

Thanks!!


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## pastera (Nov 1, 2011)

$189 - 600w Pure sine inverter - http://www.invertersrus.com/pwrig50012s.html
~$200 (w/shipping) 1000w 12v supply - http://www.ebay.com/itm/1000W-13-8V...707?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c2048f1db

Use your cheap genny to power the supply and the supply to power the inverter - still cheaper than a Honda and you have all the extra 'dirty' power.


IMO, the generator power issue is very overblown
     Don't overload the generator
     Unload the generator before starting or shutting down - DO NOT LET IT RUN OUT OF GAS 
     Add non sensitive loads (resistive / incandescent lights) first and remove last to prevent generator surging when adding more sensitive (expensive) loads
     Don't run only reactive (motors) and/or dirty (switching power supplies) - always have a significant portion of the load as resistive (run an oil filled heater or some flood lights).

The grid has the ability to absorb all of the backfed energy from reactive loads and the capacity to keep up with the non-linear loads from devices like switching power supplies - your generator cannot so you need to buffer it with resistive loads 

Aaron


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## Hitch (Nov 1, 2011)

lbcynya said:
			
		

> Don't believe so.  The clean power is created from the inverter built into the generator.  The generator actually makes 12-14 volts like a car alternator, then the invertor convers the 12v power to 120 volts.  A high quality 1000 or more watt invertor can get expensive in a hurry.  If you find a cheap inverter, then the conversion from 12 v to 120 v suffers, defeating the purpose.
> 
> Sorry, when it comes to clean power, there are NO shortcuts.  Everything has a balance and everything has a price!



Darn, I wish you had a different response, but understand what you are saying.  I have an old Honda generator that was barely enough to keep our 1 HP sump pump running when Irene came through and we lost power.  The water was really flowing into the crock and the sump pump ran a lot.  We made it through, but the generator struggled with the initial surge/need of the sump pump on start-up.  It was a long night listening to the generator almost shut down each time the sump started.  

Afterwards, we went out and bought a bigger generator from Costco.  It will provide a lot more juice, but I was hoping that I could filter/clean the power with a good UPS/surge protector.  Oh well.  I don't think I can justify a third generator.  I'll just have to do the best I can when the situation arises.


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## lbcynya (Nov 1, 2011)

See this tread on UPS and related issues relative to creating a sine wave for sensitive electronics - https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/82431/ 

Sorry, still no shortcuts to clean power...  :-(


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## CelciusMaximus (Nov 1, 2011)

@hitch you might get away with a auto battery charger/starter with (120V) input from your genny to a 12V output car battery to inverter to your stove


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## 603BOB (Nov 1, 2011)

Just my opinion, but the whole thing is overblown.

The incoming power is stepped down by a transformer (inductive load) - rectified - filtered - regulated to clean 5VDC power. The processor, the logic, and the LED's all run on 5VDC.

The Triacs for the igniter, combustion blower, feed motor, and distribution blower simply switch off and on whatever is applied to them. They are isolated from the processor by Opto Isolators. 

My Harmon Advance is 11 years old, has run from generators, and even a 1000 watt square wave inverter - no problems - on square waves the motors make a different noise. The igniter is a pure resistance and could care less what the waveform is. My igniter has NEVER been replaced!!

Surge suppressors do nothing to improve the waveform - they only clip very high voltage and fast rise spikes. Typical 120VAC suppressors clip at about 330 volt peaks. Fast rise spikes can not pass through the transformer as it appears to them as a very high impedance.

I have worked with generators and UPS units for many years on communications sites - waveform distortion has never been a serious concern.


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## pastera (Nov 1, 2011)

lbcynya said:
			
		

> See this tread on UPS and related issues relative to creating a sine wave for sensitive electronics - https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/82431/
> 
> Sorry, still no shortcuts to clean power...  :-(



For a more scientific look: http://support.fluke.com/find-sales/Download/Asset/3497420_6112_ENG_A_W.PDF

An online UPS is essentially what I described but with a battery and controls.

There may be no shortcut to Lab grade clean power but the real question is what grade power do you need?

With the triac motor control of induction motors and the simple power supplies in our stoves, they are dirty little bastards themselves, power wise... As long as the power source does not overvolt or cause power transformer overheating from extremely high crest factors, the stove really doesn't care much about the power quality.


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## wilburg (Nov 1, 2011)

My power came back on, my stove ran 4 days on Genny, kept the kids room at 72.   Ran it 24/7... Tv, refridge, DVD players, charge cell phones and iPad  all have circuit boards... Nothing got fried.    Just saying


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## lbcynya (Nov 2, 2011)

Wilburg said:
			
		

> ...Nothing got fried.    Just saying



Dirty power, like dirty oil or dirty grease in a bearing or dirty burn pots or dirty air or dirty underwear aren't going to cause spontaneous failure.  They're all slow burn scenarios...  Just don't jump on the forums and start bashing Harman because your electronics shot craps 6 days, 6 weeks, 6 months or 6 years from now.  Just saying...  ;-)


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## wilburg (Nov 2, 2011)

I won't ...   Sometimes, in an emergency, you just HAVE to wear dirty underwear, wether the "dirt" was planned or not and  wether you like it or not... Just saying....


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## ducker (Nov 9, 2011)

Wilburg said:
			
		

> My power came back on, my stove ran 4 days on Genny, kept the kids room at 72.   Ran it 24/7... Tv, refridge, DVD players, charge cell phones and iPad  all have circuit boards... Nothing got fried.    Just saying



shocker... generator or not - all electronics will fail eventually 6 hours, 6 days, 6 years, 6 decades.. it will fail.

I've used my pellet off of my "cheapy" generator just fine for 10+ days over the past 2 yers.  No problems... save the one time I accidently let it run out of gas.  that drop in voltage, blew the fused in my Harman stove... Don't let this happen, it was a total PITA in getting in there to replace it.  But it was doable by myself.

I've powered the pellet stove, plasma TV, stereo, DVR, freezer, fridge, microwave... no issues.  (not all at the same time of course---)


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## RKS130 (Nov 9, 2011)

I have a plain old Sears 2400 Watt generator, circa 1996 when I was lucky enough to get the last one after coming home from a trip and finding no power and water rising in the basement in an October Nor'easter.  Anyone know if there is something I can insert between the gennie and the stove to even out the voltage?


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## lbcynya (Nov 9, 2011)

RKS130 said:
			
		

> I have a plain old Sears 2400 Watt generator, circa 1996 when I was lucky enough to get the last one after coming home from a trip and finding no power and water rising in the basement in an October Nor'easter.  Anyone know if there is something I can insert between the gennie and the stove to even out the voltage?



Since the concensus is that dirty power is good for your stove, run her till she blows!  Or, maybe expensive electronics miraculously clean up the power, so plug in every expensive device you have. While your at it, don't bother changing the oil in your car either...it's a waste of cash. 
Finally, forget about cleaning your stove...that's a waste of time...cleaning is overrated.


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## RKS130 (Nov 9, 2011)

Looks like its time to just scratch my b**t and drink beer.  Isn't life grand?!


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## St_Earl (Nov 9, 2011)

just ordered my genny. powerhorse 2200
2200 surge watts 1800 running watts.
these have inverters, well reviewed engines, and less than 5% thd. seller is northern tools. they have stores and service in my state and there is a two year warranty.
http://www.amazon.com/Powerhorse-Po...E6D0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1320858582&sr=8-1

glad i waited a bit. the powerhorse gennys are on sale on amazon right now.
the 2200 was down from $299 to $279. their other models are on sale too.

$76 shipping. and at $356 delivered, i still spent almost $100 less than the cheapie generac ix1600 (chinese) i almost bought.
the powerhorse is made in china too. but the engine was developed and tested in the u.s. . and it gets way better reviews than the generac ix series.
it also has a much bigger gas tank.

change/fill the oil religiously. and run with a load monthly to semi monthly.
use premium gas.(gonna put the regular i got into the subie outback)
i hear gas additives like seafoam are also recommended.


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## celticsgreen (Nov 9, 2011)

I have a 13500 surge, 8000 constant Briggs and Stratton generator.






  We just had 3 days of outage which is not uncommon in NH.  In 2008 we had 8 days.  If you are a homeowner in NH and you don't have a generator it is borderline irresponsible since you can count on power outages and most NH residents depend on well water.    The Harman P61 runs ok on the generator, and we stayed warm,  but not as well as off the grid.  You can actually hear the difference in the fans.  They are nosier and the fire color seems like it is tending more orange.  There is definitely a difference.  Since I did not want to run the generator 24/7 we only used the stove during the day.  Although the cheap Chinese generators are tempting you are screwed if you need a part....you will not find it locally or maybe not at all.  If I need a part I can get it locally, same day, in several different locations.  When you lose power for 8 days like we did in 2008, you soon realize that once you are depending on your generator you no longer have a backup source.  I would buy a Chinese generator as a backup to my Briggs, or if I wanted to use a Chinese generator as my primary backup power I would buy 2.


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## richkorn (Nov 9, 2011)

lbcynya said:
			
		

> RKS130 said:
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So... Why the nasty response to RKS130? He was just asking a valid question.


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## richkorn (Nov 9, 2011)

St_Earl said:
			
		

> just ordered my genny. powerhorse 2200
> 2200 surge watts 1800 running watts.
> these have inverters, well reviewed engines, and less than 5% thd. seller is northern tools. they have stores and service in my state and there is a two year warranty.
> http://www.amazon.com/Powerhorse-Po...E6D0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1320858582&sr=8-1
> ...



Thanks for the heads up. I was just looking at the 9000. Says "5% total harmonic distortion at full load, is safe for sensitive electronics"
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200419025_200419025


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## St_Earl (Nov 9, 2011)

yeah. i hope we both have good luck with them.
from all i've read, that >5% number is pretty decent. briggs and stratton list their units at from 3% to 6% thd

i simply couldn't spend for a honda. and even a briggs and stratton 1800 at $649 was too dear with all the money we are laying out as new homeowners.
i guess just keep the oil fresh and use good gas all the time.
and run it periodically with a load to keep it ready.
a friend in n.j. told us of lots of folks in his block busting out their gennys only to find that they had sat idle too long and didn't work.

been hearing about this as superior to stabil and other gas additives-

http://www.seafoamsales.com/tech-info-gas-engines/

http://www.seafoamsales.com/

at 1 oz. per gallon, and a 16 oz can costing $9.95, it isn't as costly as i had expected it to be.
barring constant outages, this should last me several seasons even using the fuel for the mower too.


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## seige101 (Nov 9, 2011)

Rokal said:
			
		

> I am looking for a portable genny to power my Harman XXV in the event of a power outage.  Can anyone recommend a reasonably priced generator that will work well with Harman stoves?
> 
> Do I need to buy an inverter generator?
> 
> ...



I just ordered the Champion 2000 watt inverter Generator Sunday from Cabellas (want to be able to return to the store) It will be in tomorrow i will be posting a full review.

I was borrowing the neighbors Honda 2000 Watt inverter generator for a few hours to run the stove and keep the fridge cold, that thing is awesome but i had to see if i could get a similar quality generator for a few bucks cheaper. Paid $607 w/ free shipping for the Champion, if it doesn't work i will bite the bullet and buy the honda. They are $950 at either electricgeneratorsdirect.com or wisesales.com forgot which one

Edit:
 on the Eco mode on the Honda we were seeing run times or 8-10 hours on the 1.1 gallon of gas it holds. Loads varied from the pellet stove running on high constantly, fridge cycling as needed, and the coffee pot for about 10 minutes to brew a pot of coffee. I was impressed the generator was able to power the stove on high and the coffee maker at the same time, you could tell that was the upper limit though. 

I will need 2 generators to power the house successfully, i want the smaller inverter generator that sips gas to run 8-10 hours a day for the stove, fridge and tv/ computer. I will buy a larger 5000 watt 120/240 volt that i can run the whole house on. I need the 240 volts to power the well pump. I will only run the large one as needed to power the well pump etc so i can save fuel


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## lbcynya (Nov 9, 2011)

richkorn said:
			
		

> lbcynya said:
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Technically, it wasn't aimed at RKS130, just this tread in general.  People are spending thousands on stoves and splitting hairs over hundreds.  Since dirty power doesn't cause your electronics to spontaneously explode, somehow that makes dirty power ok?  Cheap Chinese generators are for inductive loads.  If you choose to power electronics with them, then you will shorten their lifespan.  If we can all accept that fact, then what you choose to power your stove with is YOUR CHOICE.  I also understand that a grand for a Honda generator is more than some can justify and THAT'S OK.  I'm simply trying to help people make and informed decision.   

Also remember that the thread is specifically pointed to Harman users, so other stove manufacturers might have different requirements.  The owners manual for my Harman XXV DOES NOT specify that an inverter generator is necessary.  So, for Harman XXV owners (other Harmans will have to verify), it's prudent to buy the lowest THD generator you can afford and roll with it. 

Everything has a price.  Even if you pay less now, you might pay more later, whether it be fuel, noise, reduction in electronics life, or failure of the generator itself forcing you to go without or replace under duress.

Buy what you can afford (or a little bit more) and go forward with the understanding that you do get what you pay for and low price doesn't always mean low cost.


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## St_Earl (Nov 10, 2011)

lbcynya said:
			
		

> Cheap Chinese generators are for inductive loads.  If you choose to power electronics with them, then you will shorten their lifespan.



well. the generac ix series are chinese. they are inverter generators. they aren't as cheap as they should be though because they trade on the generac name.


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## lbcynya (Nov 10, 2011)

St_Earl said:
			
		

> lbcynya said:
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It's all about how the unit is specified.  I'm sure there are good generators that are made in China, but specification is everything.  And I would hope that Generac spec's higher grade components since their brand is very important to them.  I'm not going to attempt to define cheap, that really has to do more with an individuals budget and their needs.  

But, if Honda (Yamaha's too) is considered the gold standard (best engine, best components, steep price) and they are around $950 for 2000 watts, then the cost per watt is 47.5 cents.

The OP asked if a 3500 watt $299 buck generator was ok.  That equals 8.5 cents per watt. 

Draw your own conclusions.  

I spent over 5 years mulling around a generator purchase, but I was always turned off by just not knowing what I was getting.  So much of products nowadays is marketing and manipulation, it's a shame.  Remember when there was only a few choices out there.  There's probably 10,000 different generators you can buy, all want you to think they are A-ok.  Just like everyone else, I work hard for my $$$ and I want to insure I get the best value.  I was browsing at snowmobiles (something else I really don't need) and my dealer had the Honda's on sale for $850. Took about 12 seconds for me to put my decision to rest.


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## IHATEPROPANE (Nov 10, 2011)

I bought a cheap Chinese inverter generator and only used it so far about 11 hours to test it out.  Way to early to speak of quality.  When I was looking at them the Generac,Briggs,Honeywell and mine all look identical.  All different prices and I would not be surprised in the least if they were for all intents and purposes identical on the inside.  But, ultimately why I bought this model was because I have never lost power for any length of time and in the event that I do I would hope this generator would do the job.  Now if my intentions were to use it for camping or everyday use I would reconsider and probably pay the money for a top of the line Honda or Yamaha.


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## Harman Lover 007 (Nov 10, 2011)

St_Earl said:
			
		

> been hearing about this as superior to stabil and other gas additives-
> 
> http://www.seafoamsales.com/tech-info-gas-engines/
> 
> ...



I stumbled onto SeaFoam a couple of years ago. I use it as a fuel treatment in nearly everthing I own with an engine including my boat, truck, sleds, golf carts, generator, chainsaws, weed wackers and so on. The stuff is amazing. As a fuel treatment, it compares to the "magic" of what Marvel Mystery Oil does in a crankcase.


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## Bad Wolf (Nov 14, 2011)

Seige101, Do you have any feedback on the Champion? Which Cabellas? Hartford? 
I just bought one from a guy in East Hartford who got his at the end of the storm, only had one tank of gas through it. 
He paid $799 and I got it for $400. Looks like a sweet unit, and is advertised as a "true sine wave" (TSW)

I also have a cheapo 2 stroke "inverter" but the kill-o-watt meter read "dc", so I'm assuming its a modified sine wave, (MSW) while the Champion reads 59.9 hz. 
Similarly, my cheap inverter reads "dc" while my pure sine inverter reads 59.9 hz.   I guess its all about the quality of the inverter. 

I'm looking for the same set up: small economy unit (1700 watt Champion) to run for 8-9 hours to power the TARM and few lights, bigger unit (7550 watt Troy-bilt) to run the whole house for 4-5 hours at a time.


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## 76brian (Nov 14, 2011)

I have a Champion Model CSA400032. It's your basic 4000w peak output, cheap chinese synchronous genset.

I also have a recently calibrated Fluke oscilloscope on my bench... and yes, I have seen the output on the scope.

How's it look? Surprising. Lets put it this way... the genny is 4 years old, has at least 150 hours on it, starts on the first or second pull every time, and runs for 16 hours on a tank with a decent load on it. It's been used every year for ARRL field day to run very expensive radio communications gear, and I still use it.

You won't have any problem running modern electronics off of any modern decently made generator. Your computer, your TV, your DVD player, whatever, all use switching mode power supplies, which are built to handle large variances in voltage and frequency. They HAVE to, not every part of the world has a grid as stable as we do in North America.

The only REAL advantage to inverter generators are you get more power from a given engine size, thus less weight per watt, more fuel efficient, and quieter running.

If you're that worried about it, use a decent power conditioner/surge arrestor... which you should be using anyways.


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## seige101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Greg H said:
			
		

> Seige101, Do you have any feedback on the Champion? Which Cabellas? Hartford?
> I just bought one from a guy in East Hartford who got his at the end of the storm, only had one tank of gas through it.
> He paid $799 and I got it for $400. Looks like a sweet unit, and is advertised as a "true sine wave" (TSW)
> 
> ...



It came in last thursday as soon as ups pulled out of the drive way i was ripping the box open on that sucker. Filled it up with oil, gas and let it rip. It would not stay running after i turned the choke off after 5 minutes and it was warm. Called tech support they said the main jet needed to be cleaned, found a local service center 10 minutes away and brought it there friday. They no longer are a champion dealer or service center. Called cabelas up Saturday explained the situation. Drove down to the hartford store (was planning on going down with dad anyways) exchanged it no questions asked.

Got home and filled it up with oil and gas and it started right up. After warming up for barely a minute i shut the choke off, waited barely another minute and put it into econo mode. Boy is this thing quiet. Plugged a 300 watt drop light in, the motor barely ramped up speed. Plugged a 1500 watt heater in and turned it to low, the generator ramped up a little more, cranked it up to high and the motor ramped up all the way. The over load light flickered a few times until the heater was warmed up(300 watt droplight and heater both plugged in). Ran it that way for 30 minutes with no problems.

I used it Sunday for 4 hours running the drop light and it burned about 1/4 gallon of fuel while i was doing a service change somewhere. 

This unit is QUIET i would say as quiet as a Honda Ei2000 while on eco mode and ever so slightly louder while running at full speed.

This Saturday will be the real test, plan on running the pellet stove and fridge on it until it runs out of gas.

Right now i am very happy with the purchase. I feel it is a quality generator with almost equal quality to other units costing $1000+. I just ordered another one for my mom. She will be using it for the same purpose pellet stove, fridge and a few lights.

Full review coming soon! and pictures too


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## gfreek (Nov 14, 2011)

What about a Trip Lite Line Conditioner  plugged into a generator then the stove into that?? Are we worrying about voltage spike, sine wave or both? http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-LC1200-Conditioner-Protection/dp/B0000512LA/ref=dp_cp_ob_hi_title_1


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## IHATEPROPANE (Nov 15, 2011)

seige101 said:
			
		

> Rokal said:
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You were able to run the pellet stove and fridge at the same time?  I am worried my 1600/1800 might not be able.  Although it ran a 1/2 hourse sump pump fine.  But everything I see online says you need 2100+ on surge.


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## seige101 (Nov 16, 2011)

Yes, i would plug in the fridge and let it start up and get running then fire up the stove and let it rip. I also turned off the eco mode until the fridge was running, i wanted that sucker to be at full power for when the fridge kicked in.


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## Rokal (Nov 21, 2011)

I contacted Harman to see if they had any input regarding the use of conventional generators vs. inverter generators.

Below is their not suprising response:



> There are no specific generator models we can recommend because none of our units have been tested or approved for this type of operation. The electronic control boards on our pellet stoves require a constant supply of 120 volts @ 60HZ. The only product tested/approved for use on Harman stoves is the Model 512 Battery Backup System.



In case anyone is interested, Costco just listed a new 1000 watt Duracell Inverter Generator for $199 with free shipping.  This supposedly has <3% THD.

$70 OFF Duracell 1000 Watt Running / 1200 Starting Watt Invertor Generator


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## cdodge04 (Dec 31, 2011)

Sorry to bump an old thread but just wanted to do some follow up. From this thread I picked up on these units: 

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...P_PARENT_ID&storeId=10051&Ntpr=1&ddkey=Search

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200419022_200419022

http://www.amazon.com/Champion-Equipment-4-Stroke-Generator-Compliant/dp/B0041K09D8
http://www.amazon.com/Briggs-Stratton-Portable-Inverter-Generator/dp/B0037C18U4

I'm just wondering, those of you who bought these units, what was the outcome? Did you test to see how clean the power coming out actually was? I'm in an area where we almost never lose power, but I'm going to pick up a generator to use on those certain occasions when we do lose power.


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