# Pellet Furnace horizontal vent run question.



## jamobaum (Feb 15, 2012)

Hello burners.  I am new to this forum, and have just purchased a home with a Quadra-fire pellet insert.  This is my first experience with wood pellets and I must say its pretty darn cool.  I love the idea of renewable energy and not having to cut, split, or store bark shedding wood(like my father did).  The problem with the insert is that it only heats the room its in and higher.  Which is fine, I just need more power (heat)for the rest of the house.  This house is 6 years old, 1800 sq ft main floor, 1000 sp ft basement, and 800 sq ft upstairs bedrooms.  It is a story and a half house with basement.  The insert is in the 'great room' which we spend most of our time, and the heat will rise upstairs to the bedrooms if we leave their doors open.  But here's where I need more oomph.  Our bedroom and bath are on the main floor but out of reach of the insert, and so is the basement which is freezing(60 degrees).  We have a forced air electric heat furnace on the main floor and basement, and a smaller unit in the upstairs attic for the upstairs bedroom.   We don't have a natural gas line run to the house.  So we got our first power bill and for Dec it was $550 and then in Jan $620.  So I know the house has a lot of sq feet, lots of widows, and 'high ceiling peaks'.

The pellet insert got me interested and I learned about pellet furnaces that I could "add-on" to the existing furnace, but here's my dilemma.  And I think I now know the answer but wanted opinions.  My furnace room is located in the middle of the basement, so the nearest exit point for the vent is 25 feet away.  I would have to vent it up 9ft, then horizontally 25 feet between the floor joists(no way to get that 1/4"/foot) and then exit the home.

Are there pellet furnaces that allow that kind of horizontal run?
Thanks for the help,
Jamo


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## DexterDay (Feb 15, 2012)

You can put the furnace closer to a wall?? Then just have a longer run of the plenum that feeds to your supply on the HVAC. 

Depending on the HVAC, you can be pretty far away. But that depends on the layout. My furnace is about 15' away from my LP furnace.

 Depending on the unit, you can get away with some long runs. There is a Harman PF-100 user here that has something like 12' of horizontal. Having no ill effects.
 If you look on other websites, I have seen others do 8'-10' regularly. Although it is not recommended at all and the ash accumulation within the horizontal section will need cleaned very often.. 
Not condoning it, but some long runs have been made...

Pics help.....


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## katman (Feb 15, 2012)

Another option is a pellet boiler.  You still have the same chimney issue but  if you can place it  closer to an exterior wall you solve t he chimney proble.  Then you can pipe over to your air handler and install a water to air heat exchanger.  You indicated the basement was freezing--put in some hot water baseboards or radiators and you solve that problem.  If you know a good plumber he can run pipe up to the upper floors and you would have some nice radiant baseboard heat.  Harman makes two peller boilers and there are others out there too.


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## slangtruth (Feb 15, 2012)

I have a St Croix Revolution and am in a similar position, not quite as bad as 25 foot but my cellar is essentially a crawl space and only the center is dug out, which is where the oil tank and furnace and now the Rev lives - I could not move it any closer to the wall and I have about a 6 foot horizontal run inside.  I would say that at best this is marginally acceptable in real life - St Croix themselves do not specify how much venting the unit is equipped to handle, and I feel I am right on the edge. I come out of the furnace to a double cleanout tee, up 3 feet, through 2 45 degree angles with a foot between them, then about 6' with some rise out through the wall, with another cleanout and a 3' vertical outside (required here for code to get above the yearly average snow line). I pulled my combustion blower to clean it the other day, and sitting there on the stove end of the vent I could feel a constant inrush of cold air from outside. It's a lot for the blower to overcome when it's trying to displace the cold dense outside air with light heated air from the stove, and my pipes cool down and clog up quickly in cold temps as a result.  But there's no other practical way to route my venting that I can think of, and the numpty who installed my furnace never had thoughts of any of this cross his mind.  Once we get through this year I'm going to seriously investigate some sort of booster or wind-defeating impeller to cut down the backdraft. Anyone seen anything like that for pellet vent?


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## jamobaum (Feb 15, 2012)

I found the floor plan of the house which I'm sure will help everyone visual things.  The side option exit would look the best(Purple box in photo), but again it's about 25 feet and no rise at all in the floor joist space.  I could go out through the garage, but the pipe would exit out the front of the house, and I'm not sure if my wife or even I would like the look.  Especially if it would darken the vinyl siding as I wouldn't want a long vertical run there.  Maybe only a couple of feet.

Right now I don't want to run a boiler and the associated plumbing, but it definately is an option.  I also thought of placing the furnace or maybe now a stove in the "game room" area(where it angles out, it's right below the "breakfest" room).  If I did that, then I could use a stove like the Drolet Eco-65 and use the 2 vent runs to blow into the master bed and bathroom, and maybe heat at least that "corner" of the basement.  But the laundry room wouldn't get much heat from it.  Guess I am really zoning my pellet heat with that option.   Oh, the masterbedroom and bath are actually under a 4 foot high crawl space.  The basement is only a partial basement and doesn't extend under that part of the house.

Ok guys, let's see what you got!
Jamo


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## bcb1 (Feb 15, 2012)

It's normal to get excited when you first install a pellet stove and you see how they save you money on your electric bill - as well as being able to feel all the heat they generate.  But before you go installing a pellet furnace as a potential whole house solution, you might want to think about your logistics:  mainly, how will you get pellets down in your basement/crawl space?  If you're young with good knees, then lugging a couple tons of pellets down the stairs every year is probably no big deal, but think about down the road.  If you have a full size door entry to your basement, then it's no problem.

I've been burning pellets since 2004, we have a 1.5 story cape cod with a two story great room - not exactly like your floor plan but somewhat similar.  I can tell you that our heat pumps don't come on at all until the outside temps fall below about 25 degrees.  

Cape Cods are notoriously hard to insulate properly on the second level.  The first level is usually no issue; but the building envelope on the 2nd level leaves a lot of room for builders - even experienced ones - to make many mistakes when it comes to air sealing.  If you're experiencing very high energy bills on a fairly new home (and six years old is fairly new) - then it would be worthwhile for you to consider an energy audit from an energy contractor that uses a blower door to test your home.  Many also have thermal IR cameras to test for areas of heat loss.  A couple hundred bucks spent on an energy audit, and the associated sealing (usually accomplished with rigid styrofoam board and spray foam) is fairly low cost and can save you many thousands of dollars in future energy bills.  Take it from a guy that found out the hard way, lol.


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## jamobaum (Feb 15, 2012)

OK, so getting some ideas from posting and getting feedback.  I really like the idea of leaving the pellet furnace in the utility room with the existing furnace.  But it doesn't have to be next to it.  Like Dex said earlier, I could have a longer hot supply line and shorten the vent.  If I keep it in the utility room, I can run a 3 or 4 inch PVC pipe to funnel the bagged pellets from the garage into a holding box in the utility room, and open a door and pour them into a 5 gallon bucket, or later auger them into the furnace hopper, right?

So that leaves me with the vent coming out in the front North facing side of the house with the vent.  

Hmmmm...so I can built a nice decorative brick freestanding chimney about 5 feet tall in front of the garage window next to the porch and be done with it.  I would have four 90 degree bends/clean out tees, and approximately 30 feet total max pipe length, with 10 feet going horizontal(with at least 1/4 per foot rise).

Ideas?


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## jamobaum (Feb 15, 2012)

OK, so I did some quick chimney work and photoshopped one in next to the porch in a little cubby area by the garage.


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## DexterDay (Feb 15, 2012)

Why the chimney?  To look pretty? I dont think they look bad if done correctly? 

If you come out above grade high enough, you shouldn't need to go higher?  How high off the ground will you be coming out of the house? 

One of my vents is in the front if the house. Looks like a standard vent. I have some pavers stacked up on both sides (to hold my leafblower) but also dresses it up a little. If the stove operates correctly, there should be no soot (ever). You can even get some stone decorations to put beside it to camouflage it.

As for the 4 90Â°'s and 10' horizontal. Thats 30' EVL right there. Thats not including anything else. Can you.do anything else to eliminate some 90Â°'s? Or get the unit closer to a wall?


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## jamobaum (Feb 15, 2012)

Well the exit point on the house would be the white "trim" board area on the photo, between the concrete grey foundation and where the siding starts.  It's a 10" rim joist that I would punch through.  I'm not sure if I could eliminate some 90's, I'll check when I get home tonight.  But that chimney was a quick photoshop job, and as it looks in the pictue it would be coming up 6 feet from the ground landscaped area.  I could probably get away with maybe a 2 foot verticle "chimney" measured from the white trim board which would be 4 feet tall altogether.  I gues I could also make it vinyl sided to match the house.  

But yeah it does look a bit big in the photo, hehe.


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## jamobaum (Feb 15, 2012)

Or I could black vent pipe it and plant an evergreen or two "near" it.  There's lots of room to distance buffer in that area. How close can you get an evergreen tree to them??


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## katman (Feb 15, 2012)

your local jurisdiction may not like the chimney so close to the porch or windown even though it looks like it would satisfy the chimney manufacturer specs.


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## DexterDay (Feb 15, 2012)

Depends on the requirements by the vent manufacturer and stove manufacturer.

My Fahrenheit states 1' above ground level, 1' away from building (from siding to end of vent), and 2' from other combustibles (shrubs, structures, etc).

Clearance to Combustibles on the vent (Pellet Vent Pro is all I have) is 1" from side of pipe (if your gonna run up the siding or build a chase) So it doesnt have to be a large cavity.

With that many 90Â°'s your EVL will be pretty high. Really no limit to EVL put on 4" (IIRC)? But you still will want to keep them to a minimum.  Along with being a pain to clean. Unless you use Clean-out T's or Double Clean-out T's would be even better.

Have you thought about or considered going straight up? This eliminates the horizontal, front house termination, chimney/chase,EVL issues, and make cleaning a snap.


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## katman (Feb 16, 2012)

DexterDay, I understand what you are saying about the requirements set by the vent manufacturer.  However, the local building code may be more stringent so I was suggesting that be considered before installing.  I know of a few instances where vents were routed under second story decks.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 16, 2012)

Vent termination clearances also must meet the stove manufactures requirements or no valid certification and the insurance company will not like that.

You do not want long horizontal vent runs and you really do not want a lot of 90 degree elbows even with 4" vent pipe.

I won't even comment about running that vent through a garage space.


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## jamobaum (Feb 16, 2012)

So I when I got home last night I took a look at the situation.  I definately think going out the front of the house is the best "functional" option, not necessarily the most esthetic though.

Going straight up(or relatively) through the roof would put the pipe in the dining room, and I don't like extra holes in the roof that potentially could leak.  I also want to be able to "remove" the pellet system if a)it doesn't live up to my expectations and b)if it does and I want to take it with me if we move(10+ years from now).  So best best is to go out the sill plate.

Now the basement has 9 ft ceilings, so lets so 9 ft for the verticle run there;

Then 90 degree elbow into the garage through a thimble in the sill plate of the utility room/garage with about 8 ft horizontally(can have a rise of 1/4" per foot);

Then that horizontal run would meet another 90degree to come out the front of the house through a thimble;

Then another horizontal run to get it far enough away from the house to meet code, and 90 degree up vertically however much is needed and terminate with a cap.

So I kept thinking of ways to improve esthetics, and I have so far to:
1)leave the black pipe on the house
2)build a stand-alone brick chimney or vinyl sided chimney(with a hollow back to access/clean the pipe)
3)plant evergreens "close" to the black pipe in the first choice
4)get a bronze chinese dragon and vent it through it's open smoking mouth(my favorite idea ;-)  )
5)or a chimnea instead of a dragon:


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## jamobaum (Feb 16, 2012)

Forgot the pic of a chimnea


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## DexterDay (Feb 16, 2012)

katman said:
			
		

> DexterDay, I understand what you are saying about the requirements set by the vent manufacturer.  However, the local building code may be more stringent so I was suggesting that be considered before installing.  I know of a few instances where vents were routed under second story decks.



Sorry if you misunderstood me. I should have quoted the OP when I wrote that.

My post wasnt a response to your post. You are right. Local code always applies. I was trying to answer his question on the distance to Combustibles (his evergreen trees he spoke of).

Sorry for the mix-up. Local code always matters. Just giving him some numbers on the distances that are labeled by the Vent Manufacturer (Pellet vent pro) and Stove manufacturer (Fahrenheit). These are the distances set by them. Just so he has some #'s. But if he uses ICC or Selkirk DT, I dont know what there distances are. Or any other Furnace. Its best to look up the manual online (vent and stove) and look at installation requirements and also CTC's. 

Jamo- Have you experimented with any fans in your home to spread the heat from the Quad?  Using a floor fan, place it in an adjacent room or down a hallway and try blowing the cold air into the warm stove room. The cold air will be replaced with warm air. Cold air finds warm air, easier than warm finds cold. 

I would give this a shot in the meantime. Till you figure out more options. Also try running the unit on a lower setting (Med instead of High) this makes the stove take longer to get the room up to temp. But allows more heat to "Soak" into the objects in the room. Rather than just heating the air. You heat everything and makes it feel more comfortable.


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## jamobaum (Feb 21, 2012)

Well, time heals all wounds right?  Or at least gives you time to think a little more.   So I went to my local fireplace dealer last Friday since I was able to get off work early and they were still open.   I asked about a pellet 'furnace' and he kind of looked at me like "your kidding right?".   So I showed him my floor plan, and with the way the house is layed out and looking for uncomplicated venting, he suggested a stove.  So I was at first dismayed, since I had it in my head I needed to blow hot pellet fueled air into my existing furnace.

In the floor plan photo of the basement is the "game room".  There is a square hand drawing of a couch.  The dealer said I could put a stove there, exaust it out to the rear of the house eliminating my aesthtic concerns.  Since the stove would be there, it would heat soak that part of the basement and heat the main level some.  But most importantly, if I were to get a stove that allowed for it's own ducting(Drolet65 or one of the Ecotek's) I could run a duct in the crawl space next to the stove and into the cold master bedroom/bath.

So I am leaning towards that route now.  And as fate would have it, I explored my new to me basement a little more and found out it wasn't insulated.  The previous homeowner put up wooden siding to give the basement a 'rustic' look, and behind that was a bare basement wall.  So now I am going to remove the wood(it's nailed on with little airpowered brads) and it comes off easy.  Stud a 2x4 wall(the siding is on 1 1/2thick furring strips) and place a plastice vapor barrier against the concrete wall, and R-19 insulate the spaces between the studs.  I figure by leaving an inch and half space to the wall will allow the room for R19.

So any ideas on this way of thinking?


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## DexterDay (Feb 21, 2012)

Couple members here recently installed the Drolet Eco-65. Do a search for them. One used the duct kit... Pretty Slick. Big heater too. 

So with the.different placement of the stove?? Do you still need a long.horizontal run? Or is it gonna be a standard length (2'-4')?


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## jamobaum (Feb 21, 2012)

Well, the horizontal run will be at 10 feet, but it will be at a 22 degree angle upwards instead of straight horizontal.  So there would be two 90 degree bends, two 22.5's and one 45.  With 15 feet total lenght, give or take a foot.

And, the positioning of the stove would still allow me to put in a pellet chute to fill a bucket next to the stove, or into the stove hopper itself   from the garage.

I was thinking along the lines of the Drolet 65; $2k for it is half the price of the furnaces I was looking at.

No I just have to tear apart all the walls. Ughhh


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## katman (Feb 21, 2012)

As suggested above, check out one of the on-line guides to calculate your length--the bends represent more footage than a straight section of pipe.


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