# Which non-gasifier boiler would you recommend



## newguy08 (Jan 5, 2010)

I have read some of the postings regarding purchasing non-gasifier boilers due to the much higher prices of the gasifiers. Which non-gasifier boiler would you recommend to purchase and why?


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## Piker (Jan 5, 2010)

Warning:  Biased opinion...

Check out Thermo-Control.  This company has been around for almost 35 years manufacturing some well built, very simple, and fairly efficient wood burning equipment. 

Cheers


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## Robby (Jan 5, 2010)

Also biased, but not sure which way.

I use a conventional boiler, Harman SF360. I also have 1400 gallons storage. I use dry wood, 20% or less dry. Chimney stays completely clean. Just had a insurance company inspection, he stated he had never seen a chimney that clean. I think it is more inefficient than most assume, I also know it is mostly because of the storage. Very little smoke, because wood is dry and because draft can be set for cleanest burn (again because of storage). If you notice the gassers also are only efficient using storage.

Be aware, Harman great stove, company provides absolutly no help in any form, dealers (in my area) are "maybe" slightly better.
I would be happy to provide any data, if I can, you want.

Robby


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## pybyr (Jan 5, 2010)

newguy08 said:
			
		

> I have read some of the postings regarding purchasing non-gasifier boilers due to the much higher prices of the gasifiers. Which non-gasifier boiler would you recommend to purchase and why?



Not to be argumentative, but I urge you to consider a gasifier regardless of the fact that the initial investment may be more.  I've burned wood in a lot of devices over the years, and have never been so pleased as I am with my gasifier (in my case, an Econoburn).  It's a whole different scene- not much wood, lots of heat, and a very clean flue.  In light of the fact that the installation can be a sizable investment unto itself (especially if you do some form of storage), why handicap yourself with something that's almost certain to use more wood/ make less heat- and still costs thousands to install.  Oil's likely going to go up again, with only the timing and acceleration in doubt.

Again, just $0.02....


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## maineheat (Jan 5, 2010)

If you're in a location that isn't strict about UL/ASME listings, you might want to take a look at the Atmos gasifiers from CTgreenheat (http://www.ctgreenheatllc.com/pricing.html).  I'm not sure where conventional boilers are priced, but I'd think these must compete.  An option worth looking in my opinion.  The only downside might be the limited initial installation base in the US.


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## EricV (Jan 5, 2010)

Robby said:
			
		

> Also biased, but not sure which way.
> 
> I use a conventional boiler, Harman SF360. I also have 1400 gallons storage. I use dry wood, 20% or less dry. Chimney stays completely clean. Just had a insurance company inspection, he stated he had never seen a chimney that clean. I think it is more inefficient than most assume, I also know it is mostly because of the storage. Very little smoke, because wood is dry and because draft can be set for cleanest burn (again because of storage). If you notice the gassers also are only efficient using storage.
> 
> ...



I beg to disagree with this statement on gassers are only efficient with storage.   Yes, storage makes them better but non-gassers are a different class of boiler all together.


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## Duetech (Jan 5, 2010)

Of course the % of efficiency will vary with each method of use and the required load but I have to agree with EricV. My non storage gasser setup probably uses 40-50% less wood than most standard equivocally sized owb's and probably 45-60% less than my old wood furnace. An added benefit is dhw and greater thermal uniformity throughout the house but I also measure efficiency against cost and labor.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Jan 5, 2010)

newguy08 said:
			
		

> I have read some of the postings regarding purchasing non-gasifier boilers due to the much higher prices of the gasifiers. Which non-gasifier boiler would you recommend to purchase and why?


 If you are talking about the purchase of a new boiler I don't think it pays to buy a non gasser as you can get an Atmos for about the same price as mentioned by another poster. You can get lots of used conventional boilers off Ebay Craigslist etc. You might be able to minimize the creosote by running them into storage & you would have an inexpensive system. They will use more wood though. Your risk of a chimney fire is about non existant with a gasser, this and the lower fuel consumption is why I bought my Atmos, Randy


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## gorbull (Jan 5, 2010)

Singed,
Where did you pick up your Atmos?


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## Singed Eyebrows (Jan 5, 2010)

Hi Gorbull; I got mine from Kotly in Poland. They were great to deal with & absolutly trustworthy. They no longer ship to the USA though. This must have been a hassle with fumigation crating paperwork etc etc. When I got my boiler awhile back some of the smaller S series were under $1000.00 in Poland. They are not cheap anymore there with shipping. Like the Webmaster said at the time though, it's not just about price. As I spent all day driving through Chicago traffic on the first day of construction I knew that was right, Randy


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## Piker (Jan 6, 2010)

I just want to point out that chimney fires are still a concern with gassers that are installed without heat storage... the level of concern is obviously dependent upon each individual installation of course.  

Generally speaking, in the quest to balance burn time with efficiency on non-heat storage setups, folks tend to lean toward bigger boilers with bigger fireboxes and longer burn times.  This scenario lends itself to a fair amount of idle time and generous amounts of the flakey variety of creosote in the stack and heat exchanger... especially if there is a barometric check installed where cool air can mix with the smoke during idle.  I am not saying that running a gasser without storage can't be done... it's certainly a viable option, and one that I have first hand experience with... but I am saying that depending upon circumstances and operation technique, creosote production can be an issue.

Creosote is pretty much non-existent on gassers with properly installed and operated heat storage systems.

I am a huge proponent of gasification.  That having been said, it's not necessarily for everyone.  The justification of the expense depends on the commitment of the individual to a lifestyle of heating with solid fuel.  True, there are some inexpensive gassers out there... not saying they are bad, but you generally get what you pay for in performance, reliablility, and longevity... the market sees to that.  An extra $2 or $3k for a gasser over a conventional boiler may not seem like much to those of us commited to burning wood for a lifetime... but to someone who perhaps wants to burn wood just "once in a while," or maybe just doesn't have an extra $2 or $3K to lay out... well, you understand.  Different strokes for different folks...  it's what makes the world go 'round.

Cheers


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## mikeyny (Jan 6, 2010)

I have an old tarm 1982, underburn, no creosote problems, no storage, just a big house with undersized boiler that runs hot most of the time. Even in the warm season when it idles (smolders) I have not had any creosote. Most of the time I burn good wood or I mix in the not so good wood on to the top of the load.


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## Piker (Jan 6, 2010)

mikeyny said:
			
		

> I have an old tarm 1982, underburn, no creosote problems, no storage, just a big house with undersized boiler that runs hot most of the time. Even in the warm season when it idles (smolders) I have not had any creosote. Most of the time I burn good wood or I mix in the not so good wood on to the top of the load.



A perfect example of someone who has mastered the operation of his wood boiler, and proof that heat storage is not absolutely necesary.  Excellent.

cheers.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Jan 6, 2010)

Piker said:
			
		

> I just want to point out that chimney fires are still a concern with gassers that are installed without heat storage... the level of concern is obviously dependent upon each individual installation of course.
> 
> Generally speaking, in the quest to balance burn time with efficiency on non-heat storage setups, folks tend to lean toward bigger boilers with bigger fireboxes and longer burn times.  This scenario lends itself to a fair amount of idle time and generous amounts of the flakey variety of creosote in the stack and heat exchanger... especially if there is a barometric check installed where cool air can mix with the smoke during idle.  I am not saying that running a gasser without storage can't be done... it's certainly a viable option, and one that I have first hand experience with... but I am saying that depending upon circumstances and operation technique, creosote production can be an issue.
> 
> ...


 Piker, without stealing new guys thread, hopefully, could you tell me if when my tank is almost up to temp all around would it be considered idling a gasser to put in 3 large rounds that won't burn very hot even though draft settings remain the same. The flue gas temps will still stay above 300 though. Thanks, Randy


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## Piker (Jan 6, 2010)

Singed Eyebrows said:
			
		

> Piker said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you are maintaining enough draft to keep the gasification torch burning, thereby incenerating most of the particulate matter before it can enter the stack, then no, I would say that is not considered idling.  I am not familiar with the controls on the Atmos... do those have variable or multi speed draft inducers?  Variable speed draft is great at increasing the thermal effiency of the unit when demand is low.  Fewer CFM's at lower stack temps is always good, providing you can maintain an efficient combustion.



cheers


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## Singed Eyebrows (Jan 6, 2010)

Piker; The draft is taken in through a Samson flap, so yes in that sense the draft is variable, the fan speed is not. The draft is variable to water temp though & I'm not sure if this helps much. Thanks, Randy


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## Piker (Jan 6, 2010)

Singed Eyebrows said:
			
		

> Piker; The draft is taken in through a Samson flap, so yes in that sense the draft is variable, the fan speed is not. The draft is variable to water temp though & I'm not sure if this helps much. Thanks, Randy



Ahh... interesting.  Not a bad setup actually... keeps the controls simple if nothing else.  With most of the basic downdraft gassers that I have seen, as you reduce the draft, the combustion efficiency seems to drop off a bit... noticeable by visible smoke or haze coming out of the stack.  Nozzle velocity has alot to do with the combustion efficiency of these units.  What you lose in combustion efficiency, however, is probably more than made up for in thermal efficiency as stack temps and CFM drop.  What you need to be careful of is that visible smoke or haze is kept to a minimum.  If you're seeing that, then there will definitely be particulates sticking to your chimney... and draft inducer.  You might not be "idling" per se, but your won't be getting a good clean burn if you're seeing that. 

does this help?  

cheers


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## Singed Eyebrows (Jan 6, 2010)

Piker; Yes, that helped. My Atmos is unique I believe in that it has a very large nozzle opening & resultant low velocity as you mentioned. This is necessary because this unit is made to gassify with natural draft up to 70 percent normal output & the Samson flap would control everything as on power failure. In short, because of this large nozzle I believe, I will always have some white smoke. There is nothing but fine dust in the heat exchanger cleanout however. This appears to be running just as Atmos designed it to. I'm going to keep an eye on the draft inducer wheel as you mentioned & the chimney. Forgot to mention, this doesn't have much of a torch flame. There is just a bunch of glowing superheated air going through the nozzle. Again, I think it's the large area that causes this. Thanks for the help Piker, Randy


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## Duetech (Jan 6, 2010)

newguy08,  I think we like our gassers and haven't been a lot of help in your search. In light of new restrictions that may be pending for non gassers purchasing one is an area where one should tread lightly. Even the gassers have some trouble in that area. Do a search on Taylor, E classic, Wolf, Heatmore in the "search forums" box in the left top of this page. Don't be coy about PM ing some of the owners/proponents/detractors to get a list of items for comparisons. The real criteria for your  purchase is going to be based on the nuts and bolts of your needs and how you can best make an application to suply that need. I looked at a lot of OWB's before I bought my EKO and I would not have gotten that if I could have gotten an Econoburn (preference for American made to keep Americans working in American based companies. Old fashioned? Probably) but for OWB's I would have gotten a Wolf (it's now my fourth winter wihth the EKO but I think the Wolf is made in MI). Price for the size I needed was hands down the best I had seen but actually the gasser was not far from the price of the Wolf 1.2k before parts (summer sales deal). Construction of the Wolf is simple but rugged (1/4" fire box mild steel and 3/16" jacket) with the potential for owner based tweakings and there is a local dealer close by. Some of the more fancy OWB's that trail a big price tag were also less user friendly on the install and 2k+ more than what I paid for the gasser. All things to look at and only a scratch on the surface.


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## Tennman (Jan 6, 2010)

Two months into running our gasser like a OWB because we have pretty wet wood I'm not sure why folks would want an OWB. As far as I can tell there's little to no financial incentive but many efficiency and burning without smoke incentives. I'm bringing in probably 6-7 cords this season to heat our house with a gasser. That's a lot of cutting, toting, splitting, stacking. I now have a whole new appreciation for my gasser that will use 40-50% less wood. For me TIME is money. Funny now when I step out of my house and smell smoke it's my first sign that something's not right out in the boiler barn. Ya pays now or pays later. I love being in the woods but if I needed to bring in TWICE as much wood as I'm doing now to heat our big house.... hummm...


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## Duetech (Jan 6, 2010)

Tennman, It gets more amazing and efficient where labor is concerned when the wood is well seasoned and is dense like oak and hickory. Light weight hardwoods like cottonwood or aspen and softwoods like pine usually run out of gas in 6 hours in my gasser. They usually leave more ash in the boiler too. I get 10-12 hour burns with the oak/hickory with little ash. Volumetrically you can reduce the needed wood again. That's another grin in the making.


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## newguy08 (Jan 8, 2010)

So it appears that the gasifiers are the choice of most. I did not see many replies listing non-gasifiers. Let me ask another question then, since the gasification boilers are still fairly new the the USA, would anybody dare to say that the pricing will soon come down to a reasonable amount? As with any new product, time appears to have an effect on pricing as well as demand. I have noticed a few advertised gassers listed around the $5k level. but most well above $8k before you include the install costs.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Jan 8, 2010)

newguy08 said:
			
		

> So it appears that the gasifiers are the choice of most. I did not see many replies listing non-gasifiers. Let me ask another question then, since the gasification boilers are still fairly new the the USA, would anybody dare to say that the pricing will soon come down to a reasonable amount? As with any new product, time appears to have an effect on pricing as well as demand. I have noticed a few advertised gassers listed around the $5k level. but most well above $8k before you include the install costs.


 If you look on either UK or Germany Ebay you will see that gassers are not cheap there also. As Nofossil said gassers are deceptively simple, there is a lot of R&D in these. You can buy an Atmos 32S from Connecticut Green Heat for $3541.00, about $500.00 more than a cast iron conventional boiler & it's a bargain in my opinion. Thats not to say that China won't step up to the plate & make a $2000.00 gasser. I don't believe that boilers like the Tarm etc are going to drop drastically in price. Good luck with your search, Randy


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## Duetech (Jan 9, 2010)

newguy08 said:
			
		

> So it appears that the gasifiers are the choice of most. I did not see many replies listing non-gasifiers. Let me ask another question then, since the gasification boilers are still fairly new the the USA, would anybody dare to say that the pricing will soon come down to a reasonable amount? As with any new product, time appears to have an effect on pricing as well as demand. I have noticed a few advertised gassers listed around the $5k level. but most well above $8k before you include the install costs.



I don't really know if I hate to be a pessimist but I sure get to be one often enough. The economy does not look god for the price of anything going down except labor and the opportunity to make it pay. The gov't was supposed to really be a barn burner for alternative fuels but the only alternative turning up is complacency instead of the drive to make good on the promise. Though there are some tax incentives there really isn't much being done to investigate the viability of alternative fuel usage on a large scale. Some Euro' mfg's would rather not try to sell here anymore because of the reg's we have in place and there isn't much steam to advance a lessening of control. Frankly we the people are a bit busy making ends meet and lack the encouragement to believe that those hired to do a certain job really care to get it done with what we have to offer them as an incentive even if we did manage to make it known to them. We shouldn't wait for their contract to end  but shoud fire them like they have fired us since their preformance is already costing us we should at least get something for our money. To sum it up Americancs are scrambling to fill the void the reluctant Euro's and growing market have left/created and build to very stringent and inequitable reg's so their pricing will reflect the needed certification to make a marketable product. Supply and demand says no the prices won't go down until the comapnies really have the competition and freedom to compete.


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## JrCRXHF (Jan 9, 2010)

Last year i have a triangle tube boiler put in (250,000btu) later i decided to keep the house so this winter i put in floor heat in the basement. I am going to buy a 80,000 btu wood boiler and run it to the cold side return of NG boiler with a plate heat exchanger. Doing this i hope that the wood boiler can run hard and when it is not running the gas boiler takes over. I live in the city so i will start up the boiler when i get home at night or on the weekends. It is not going to be my main source of heat.


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