# LED bulbs and electric savings



## NJ_Burner08002 (Dec 16, 2014)

I just got my electric bill one month after I replaced all my lights with LED bulbs.    My electric bill went from 130 to 50.    Huge savings.


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## BrotherBart (Dec 16, 2014)

Didn't have that big a change but defiantly a noticeable one. Several were CFLs before.


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## Babaganoosh (Dec 16, 2014)

I can't give a good figure for savings because I bought my house and immediately installed led bulbs everywhere. I even leave 3 of them on 24/7. The only lights that aren't led at this point are my motion lights by the driveway.


My bill is lower than anywhere I've lived previously yet this place is double the size.


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## fossil (Dec 16, 2014)

I changed out pretty much all the lamps I normally use to LED's {floods, dimmables, 3-ways, the works). Still have a couple here and there to go.  I'm sure I'm using less electricity, but the lamps are so spendy I'm not sure I'll live long enough to see the amortization.  Makes me feel good, though.  Rick


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## BrotherBart (Dec 16, 2014)

Same way I feel about it Rick.


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## jebatty (Dec 17, 2014)

> ... but the lamps are so spendy I'm not sure I'll live long enough to see the amortization. Makes me feel good, though.


 Likely, or certainly, true for me also, and a big but .... It just might be that the perceived need for payback in one lifetime, or in just a few years for many people, is the root cause of the climate cliff we are now falling over. A genuine payback is an investment that provides a better world for succeeding generations. If the payback is just a better life for the investor to the detriment of the succeeding generations, then we have a downward spiral that can only end in disaster.


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## NJ_Burner08002 (Dec 17, 2014)

I spent $55.00 on electric and used 301 kilowatts


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## NJ_Burner08002 (Dec 17, 2014)

I also replaced 20 incandescent light bulbs with LEDs
Each bulb was $4-$4.50 each.   In just about one month I got my money back.


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## peakbagger (Dec 17, 2014)

Hard to beat LEDs just make sure you understand the color ratings. Cree makes a soft white that is close to incandescent but they also make some bright white ones that are very harsh. Great for lots of light but not so great to live with.


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## NJ_Burner08002 (Dec 17, 2014)

Yes the soft white are nice for rooms.   The bright ones are great for hallways.


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## begreen (Dec 17, 2014)

All our bulbs, CFL or LED are 3000K or 2700K bulbs. I've had good luck so far except in one location, our hallway lighting. The hallway LED bulbs are only 9watt, but they are too bright. Even dimmed they lack the soft lighting we're used to with low wattage incandescents. I need to find some 3-4watt LED floods evidently.


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## jebatty (Dec 17, 2014)

I was using 2 - 200w and 2 - 100w incandescent bulbs in the garage, replaced with 8 - 9w LED (60w equiv), 5000k, and the garage is brighter. 600w replaced with 72w. Priceless. For the LEDs I got a two bulb screw in fitting to fit in each of the sockets.


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## woodgeek (Dec 17, 2014)

Just upgraded the Chrismukkah lights....600 warm white LEDs  , but only 30W total. 

With the LED strings in my girls rooms, I figure I'm running >1000 separate LEDs at the moment.


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## semipro (Dec 18, 2014)

fossil said:


> he lamps are so spendy I'm not sure I'll live long enough to see the amortization. Makes me feel good, though.


It should feel good..  You're paying it forward. 
That is, unless some idiot trashes them all and replaces with incandescent after you're gone. (solar panels on the white house?)


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## semipro (Dec 18, 2014)

We've invested in LEDs throughout the house, for holiday decoration, and for most landscape lighting.  
The lower power requirements allows us to do solar power for all the landscape apps...no wiring, very nice. 
I find myself secretly wishing the old CFLs will fail but many live on.


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## Circus (Dec 18, 2014)

NJ_Burner08002 said:


> replaced 20 incandescent light bulbs with LED bulbs


 


NJ_Burner08002 said:


> My electric bill went from 130 to 50.


 
$80?  It's possible but all twenty lights would have to be on more than eight hours a day, every day. How do LED's measure up to compact fluorescents?


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## WiscWoody (Dec 18, 2014)

semipro said:


> We've invested in LEDs throughout the house, for holiday decoration, and for most landscape lighting.
> The lower power requirements allows us to do solar power for all the landscape apps...no wiring, very nice.
> I find myself secretly wishing the old CFLs will fail but many live on.


I have a whole house full of CFL's and I don't think I've ever had one burn out yet. They last so long I just can't see replacing them with LEDs for a savings of a few watts each. Maybe some year I will but not yet.


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## pma1123 (Dec 18, 2014)

Outside of the benefits mentioned, I've upgraded to LED's in my barn, and the 'instant-on' full brightness is outstanding for those not-so climate controlled environments.  I was amazed at the improvement in lighting also, as I had unscrewed over a dozen old 110W incandescents and replaced with the 17W/100W equivalent LED's.
The eventual payback through power savings is a nice perk, but I truly got a lighting upgrade by doing this.

One other light I upgraded to LED was the mercury vapor 175W dusk to dawn, with a Cooper/All-Pro 37W dusk to dawn fixture.   No more annoying buzzing noises, and it lights up the area equally well.  Highly recommended if anyone is considering replacing one of these old power eating outdoor lights.

As an aside, I wonder how long till the gov't gets involved and starts offering tax incentives/energy credit to change to LED?


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## NJ_Burner08002 (Dec 18, 2014)

All I know is I am saving money.  Lol.    My gas bill last month to heat my house was 29.00 and my electric was 55.00.      Love my wood insert and my LEDs.


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## begreen (Dec 18, 2014)

WiscWoody said:


> I have a whole house full of CFL's and I don't think I've ever had one burn out yet. They last so long I just can't see replacing them with LEDs for a savings of a few watts each. Maybe some year I will but not yet.


We've gone through a box load of CFLs, especially in our kitchen where the lights stay on for long periods of time. 2-3 yrs. is my average there. I just put 2 LED bulbs in to see how they compare. In other locations the CFLs been in place for years.


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## Highbeam (Dec 18, 2014)

I lost my first cree LED A-base. It was in a lamp that is on a switched outlet. It was the 100 watt equivalent and I had heard that they were less dependable. Bulb looks great but does not work anymore. Bummer as it was much more expensive than the 60 watt model.


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 18, 2014)

I recently replaced a CFL with a LED bulb and the LED used 1 watt more then the CFL ,both 60 watts equiv.


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## Babaganoosh (Dec 18, 2014)

I have a Cree 100w in my drawer that I am bringing back to home depot. It lasted 2 months. Far cry from 22 years. I'm just chalking it up to a dud. The rest of my bulbs are fine so far.


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## WiscWoody (Dec 18, 2014)

This is a different LED light but I bought a LED spotlight. It has a 5 and 10 watt setting, rechargable. It has a Black and Decker name but the same light has other brands on it also. It has a Cree LED and the light output is incredible! It's rated at 2000 lumens in high. I usually use the low setting when I walk the dogs at night on these short days in the winter. I paid $40 for mine.


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## WiscWoody (Dec 18, 2014)

pma1123 said:


> Outside of the benefits mentioned, I've upgraded to LED's in my barn, and the 'instant-on' full brightness is outstanding for those not-so climate controlled environments.  I was amazed at the improvement in lighting also, as I had unscrewed over a dozen old 110W incandescents and replaced with the 17W/100W equivalent LED's.
> The eventual payback through power savings is a nice perk, but I truly got a lighting upgrade by doing this.
> 
> One other light I upgraded to LED was the mercury vapor 175W dusk to dawn, with a Cooper/All-Pro 37W dusk to dawn fixture.   No more annoying buzzing noises, and it lights up the area equally well.  Highly recommended if anyone is considering replacing one of these old power eating outdoor lights.
> ...


Yeah up here it's rural and the power company has 175 watt, or maybe less yard lights that are Metal Halide bulbed for $10 a month on your electric bill. Someone owning their own light with the LED that you mention could save quite a bit. I run two CFL 15 watt floods off of the front of a shed with a timer for 6 hours during the winter down to 1 hour on the longest summer days. Suits me fine.


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## sesmith (Dec 19, 2014)

I really like LED's.  We converted interior lights to LED on our boat several years ago (the reduced energy use helps take the load of the solar charging system).

Though most of our house lighting is still CFL, my kitchen can lights are LED conversions, and my exterior security light went from a halogen fixture to an LED fixture this fall.  The lighting is just as good for a fraction of the energy use.  I recently replaced 5 (incandescent) candelabra bulbs in my dining room ceiling fixture with dimmable LED candelabra bulbs.  So that fixture alone went from a 200 watt fixture to a 45 watt fixture.  I figured the payback for the 5 x  $11 bulbs to be about 2 years for us.


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## BrotherBart (Dec 19, 2014)

fossil said:


> but the lamps are so spendy I'm not sure I'll live long enough to see the amortization.



Put'em in the will, with the BMW.


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## begreen (Dec 19, 2014)

Costco had some dirt cheap prices on LEDs the last time I was there. I got a complete 13W LED outdoor fixture for $9.99.


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## Hogwildz (Dec 19, 2014)

Home Depot had em on sale, $5.00 a pc or something like that. I bought 2, 1 failed in 3 days. They are under warranty, if you want to pay the shipping to send it back to the manufacturer. Which costs more than the bub in the first place. I guess ya get what ya paid for, or not even.


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## DBoon (Dec 20, 2014)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I recently replaced a CFL with a LED bulb and the LED used 1 watt more then the CFL ,both 60 watts equiv.


What kind of LED bulbs were these?  The Cree that I have purchased use 8 watts compared to the 13W the CFLs used.


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## jebatty (Dec 20, 2014)

My LED replacements are near 100%: 10 Cree 60w equivalent, 20 SunSun 60w equivalent, and 10 SunSun 40w equivalent, plus a LED tape for under the counter lighting. My wife and I both like the whiter output better, 3200K and 5000K depending on location. First LED's were some SunSun for trial, over a year ago. Then added as time went on. The SunSun were the highest in lumen/watt. Last install was about 1 month ago, some more SunSun. Price average after utility rebate was about $7/each for the 60w and $3/each for the 40w. No bulb failures. No dimming issues. One bulb has had a flicker that rarely shows up and doesn't last long. Very satisfied.


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 20, 2014)

DBoon said:


> What kind of LED bulbs were these?  The Cree that I have purchased use 8 watts compared to the 13W the CFLs used.


One of those recessed bulbs. Over the kitchen counter.


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## DBoon (Dec 20, 2014)

Seasoned Oak said:


> One of those recessed bulbs.


Brand?


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## WiscWoody (Dec 20, 2014)

Hogwildz said:


> Home Depot had em on sale, $5.00 a pc or something like that. I bought 2, 1 failed in 3 days. They are under warranty, if you want to pay the shipping to send it back to the manufacturer. Which costs more than the bub in the first place. I guess ya get what ya paid for, or not even.


Home Depot wouldn't take it back? I would think they would within a month or two with a receipt at least.


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## WiscWoody (Dec 20, 2014)

jebatty said:


> My LED replacements are near 100%: 10 Cree 60w equivalent, 20 SunSun 60w equivalent, and 10 SunSun 40w equivalent, plus a LED tape for under the counter lighting. My wife and I both like the whiter output better, 3200K and 5000K depending on location. First LED's were some SunSun for trial, over a year ago. Then added as time went on. The SunSun were the highest in lumen/watt. Last install was about 1 month ago, some more SunSun. Price average after utility rebate was about $7/each for the 60w and $3/each for the 40w. No bulb failures. No dimming issues. One bulb has had a flicker that rarely shows up and doesn't last long. Very satisfied.


I tried a 5000K Polaroid 60w equivalent in a outside light since it was an open box cheapo to try but I took it out and back to Menards. I thought the light was too blue. I'll have to see if anyone makes a warmer 4000K LED light. Something that will be as bright at -30F as it is at 75F would be nice!


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## EatenByLimestone (Dec 21, 2014)

How do LEDs hold up to vibration?  My CFLs have worked well for me, but I have a few bedroom ceiling fan lights that keep losing the same bulb.  I figure that there must be more vibration in that bulb or a loose wire.  Maybe LEDs will work better.


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## Where2 (Dec 21, 2014)

DBoon said:


> Brand?


It personally took me 485 days to kill a HD Cree Daylight 60W (dusk to dawn use, no dimming). When I contacted them, Cree happily took it back and sent me a replacement along with a prepaid packing slip for the return of their defective bulb for engineering forensics. As a result of how Cree handled the return of the defective unit and stood behind their product, I've bought 6 more of them (for a total of 10). The dusk to dawn use on my dock is literally the most strenuous testing I can run on a bulb. I've had a CFL in one of the two fixtures for 5+ years now...


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## EatenByLimestone (Dec 21, 2014)

I'd think that no on/off would be easiest on a bulb.


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## Highbeam (Dec 22, 2014)

FYI, home depot gladly replaced my 100 watt EQuiv cree led that I had bought at least two months ago. No packaging, nothing. Just went and got a new one. Those babies are 16.97$

So I removed the temporary 60watt cree from the lamp and threaded the 100 watt back in, much brighter in the room at almost double the lumens output. Those cree bulb bases get mighty hot.


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## DBoon (Dec 22, 2014)

Highbeam, just curious, was the 100W Cree LED installed vertically, or at an angle or downward?  I am wondering if a non-vertical placement and the high heating of the electronics creates early failures.


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## Highbeam (Dec 22, 2014)

DBoon said:


> Highbeam, just curious, was the 100W Cree LED installed vertically, or at an angle or downward?  I am wondering if a non-vertical placement and the high heating of the electronics creates early failures.


 
Standard lamp install with a lamp shade. Threads on bottom, vertical. Seems the 100 watt models are less durable than the 60.


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## ihookem (Dec 22, 2014)

I have almost all LED lights.  It saves me about 10 bucks  month. I have about 22 of them so in 22 months I will be even. I'm about half there. I had one bulb go bad so far and started led about 2 yrs ago little by little.


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## DBoon (Dec 23, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> Seems the 100 watt models are less durable than the 60.


Heat is the bane of the power electronics in these (and CFL) bulbs.  It seems that they may not have the cooling optimally figured out yet for the 100W bulbs.  I'll probably wait a little longer on those.


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## mopar440_6 (Dec 23, 2014)

We just bought our house a little more than a month ago. I replaced all of the blown bulbs with LED when we first moved in and I've been slowly going through and upgrading to LED as the existing bulbs (mostly CFL) fail. I'm not looking forward to the cost of replacing the 10 floods in the kitchen and hallway but I may be forced into it sooner rather than later as over half of them were pink when I turned them on this morning. I have no idea what our cost savings is going to be as we haven't lived there long enough to establish a pattern with the electric bill. But when you have a wife who works from home and two small children who all have a habit of leaving every light on all the time, it makes you feel a little better knowing the electric meter isn't spinning off the wall...


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## Highbeam (Dec 23, 2014)

mopar440_6 said:


> We just bought our house a little more than a month ago. I replaced all of the blown bulbs with LED when we first moved in and I've been slowly going through and upgrading to LED as the existing bulbs (mostly CFL) fail. I'm not looking forward to the cost of replacing the 10 floods in the kitchen and hallway but I may be forced into it sooner rather than later as over half of them were pink when I turned them on this morning. I have no idea what our cost savings is going to be as we haven't lived there long enough to establish a pattern with the electric bill. But when you have a wife who works from home and two small children who all have a habit of leaving every light on all the time, it makes you feel a little better knowing the electric meter isn't spinning off the wall...


 
Those pink flood lights you speak of sound like they must already be CFL. I hated those so much that I actually trashed them. They are a disgrace  to the lighting profession with their purple, slow, warm up time. The only good thing is that once up to temperature, the light quality is really good and the watts are low. Changing those floods to LED will vastly improve the experience of turning them on but it won't save you much electricity.

LED floods are down in the 15$ range locally with several brands available for competitition. I still prefer the Cree but own some ecosmart and FEIT floods.


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## mopar440_6 (Dec 23, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> Those pink flood lights you speak of sound like they must already be CFL. I hated those so much that I actually trashed them. They are a disgrace  to the lighting profession with their purple, slow, warm up time. The only good thing is that once up to temperature, the light quality is really good and the watts are low. Changing those floods to LED will vastly improve the experience of turning them on but it won't save you much electricity.
> 
> LED floods are down in the 15$ range locally with several brands available for competitition. I still prefer the Cree but own some ecosmart and FEIT floods.



They are CFL floods and I hate them too. Just not ready to drop $150-200 to change all of them out at once. I've already changed 2 of the floods in the house to the Cree 65w replacement bulbs. Home Depot here has the 65w bulbs for about $15 and they have the whole LED recessed units for about $18. I think the unitized ones would look nicer than the aged recessed reflectors that are in there but not sure if they'll look $3 better.


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## Highbeam (Dec 23, 2014)

mopar440_6 said:


> They are CFL floods and I hate them too. Just not ready to drop $150-200 to change all of them out at once. I've already changed 2 of the floods in the house to the Cree 65w replacement bulbs. Home Depot here has the 65w bulbs for about $15 and they have the whole LED recessed units for about $18. I think the unitized ones would look nicer than the aged recessed reflectors that are in there but not sure if they'll look $3 better.


 
Oh no, just change the bulb. That way you can use the next best thing as well as change out a defective bulb without replacing the whole fixture. I have installed many new can light fixtures in the last few years that were immediately stuffed with LED bulbs.

You can also change wattage and color as desired if you use a standard light bulb base.


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## woodgeek (Dec 23, 2014)

The only exception is if the cans are not airtight and projecting into the attic.  A sealed LED unit might be a good replacement.  Otherwise, just crew in a new LED flood and call er done.


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## WiscWoody (Dec 23, 2014)

I,wander why the floods like the par 30's were so slow to warm up? My other CFLs weren't as bad. I just put up with it as I can't afford 8 new LED can floods for the kitchen. Like they say, CFLs are best used where they will be on for a length of time like my great room lamps are in the winter. They are on at 4 PM until 10 PM.


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## ihookem (Dec 23, 2014)

Are any of the LED lights made in the USA???


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## SidecarFlip (Dec 26, 2014)

peakbagger said:


> Hard to beat LEDs just make sure you understand the color ratings. Cree makes a soft white that is close to incandescent but they also make some bright white ones that are very harsh. Great for lots of light but not so great to live with.


 

I installed CREE 45 watt / 12 volt spot lights on one of my farm tractors.  Amazing is the difference between the stock Halogen and the LED's  Price of admission is high but light output and reflective distance is fantastic.


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## SidecarFlip (Dec 26, 2014)

ihookem said:


> Are any of the LED lights made in the USA???


 

Probably not......


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## Where2 (Dec 26, 2014)

ihookem said:


> Are any of the LED lights made in the USA???


Actually, Home Depot's 120V Cree LED 40W equivalent and 60W equivalent bulbs are labeled "Assembled in USA" on the packaging. That's another reason I was willing to give them another shot after the original test unit I bought died and was replaced by Cree.


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## SidecarFlip (Dec 26, 2014)

On color ratings, I run 6500 Kelvin tubes in my shop for industrial lighting but 6000 and above is harsh lighting for in home use, way too white-bright.  I believe 3500 Kelvin is mre like what you want for interior lighting.

I have no idea who 'Kelvin' is....lol


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## woodgeek (Dec 26, 2014)

this guy...


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## Highbeam (Dec 26, 2014)

2700-3000 kelvin is what incandescent is supposed to be and also what is typically "soft white". The crees available are either yellow or blue, only the two choices. I always buy yellow which is aka soft white.

I like a nice 4000k tube in the shop, but no bluer than that. Remember that color temperature is not the same as lumens so the blue lights are no brighter but just a different color.


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## woodgeek (Dec 26, 2014)

The fun thing is when you have daylight coming in at the same time....it is around 6000K


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## SidecarFlip (Dec 26, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> 2700-3000 kelvin is what incandescent is supposed to be and also what is typically "soft white". The crees available are either yellow or blue, only the two choices. I always buy yellow which is aka soft white.
> 
> I like a nice 4000k tube in the shop, but no bluer than that. Remember that color temperature is not the same as lumens so the blue lights are no brighter but just a different color.


 
We do close tolerance high precision machining and exotic alloy fabrication (I own the shop btw, it's not a home shop).  The 6-65K lighting contrasts incremental units on measuring tools very well and we need a large amount of light to see small details anyway.  We run T5 and T8 tubes, T5 in high bay polished fixtures. and T8's in diffused fixtures,


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## SidecarFlip (Dec 26, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> this guy...


 So thats old man Kelvin......cool.


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## semipro (Dec 26, 2014)

SidecarFlip said:


> So thats old man Kelvin......cool.


A "Lord" I think.


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## WiscWoody (Dec 28, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> The fun thing is when you have daylight coming in at the same time....it is around 6000K


Natural sunlight doesn't look blue to me at all. 5000K bulbs look very bluish to me.


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## WiscWoody (Dec 28, 2014)

I gave in and bought my first LED bulb. A 60W equivalent Polaroid 3000K for $4 at Menards. I wanted a LED for my outside front door since the CFL struggled on nights like tonight when it's below zero. The new bulb was bright right from the start. That's nice!


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## Jags (Dec 29, 2014)

LEDs are cold loving critters.  They actually get more "efficient" as the temps drop.


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## WiscWoody (Dec 29, 2014)

Jags said:


> LEDs are cold loving critters.  They actually get more "efficient" as the temps drop.


It seems so, I was up at 4:00 am tending to the stove and the outside temperature was -15 F. I open the door and flipped the light switch on and it sure seemed to be at full brightness. At that temperature the CFL that I had out there would not have warmed up enough to be bright even after some time. On the other hand the CFLs that are on the front of my shed are 15W floods encased in there enclosure and they do warm up after a few minutes in the winter.


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## Jags (Dec 29, 2014)

WiscWoody said:


> It seems so



Its actually just the nature of a diode.  The same reason that super computers need to be cold.


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## Mainely Saws (Dec 31, 2014)

HD had a sale on Philips 10.5w ( 60 w ) 800 lumen bulbs for $1.75 each so I bought a case . I like the instant brightness ( especially for the outside motion lights ) & being dimmable . There is a warning on the package that the LED bulb is not suitable for fully enclosed fixtures ........


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## semipro (Dec 31, 2014)

Some thought another benefit of LED bulbs would be less bug attraction.  Apparently, those claims were unfounded. 
http://www.energycircle.com/blog/2011/08/17/correction-led-lights-do-attract-bugs


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## Mainely Saws (Dec 31, 2014)

I wonder how 3 or 4 LED 10.5w( 60w) bulbs would  compare to a T12 75w fluorescent tube for light output ?


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## woodgeek (Dec 31, 2014)

Mainely Saws said:


> I wonder how 3 or 4 LED 10.5w( 60w) bulbs would  compare to a T12 75w fluorescent tube for light output ?



Looks like the long tubes are about 60 lumens/watt:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_efficacy
so maybe 4000 lumens total.

The best CFLs are at the same level of efficiency, and the best current LED bulbs are maybe 50% higher (90 lum/W in warm white).

To answer the question....get the lumen spec on the LEDs.


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## Mainely Saws (Dec 31, 2014)

Thanks Woodgeek . The LED bulbs that I have are 800 lumens so it looks like I would need to have 5 of these bulbs to replace the light output of one T12 75w but they would only draw about 52.5 watts compared to the 75w T12 tube . Do I have that right ?


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## Mainely Saws (Dec 31, 2014)

Now that I did the math , 60 lumens per watt would equal 4500 lumens for the T12 75 watt tube ....... That means I would need 5 or 6 LED bulbs to replace the T12 tube . 63 watts for 6 LED bulbs , still a slight savings .............


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## woodgeek (Dec 31, 2014)

Not clear what the eff of the ballast on the T12s is, or if they are older they may be well below their initial brightness.

Subjective effects are hard to predict....for task lighting, the LEDs would prob be more concentrated, for shop lighting, it will just be about lumens.  I like Warm White better lumen for lumen.


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## Where2 (Dec 31, 2014)

Mainely Saws said:


> I wonder how 3 or 4 LED 10.5w( 60w) bulbs would  compare to a T12 75w fluorescent tube for light output ?


I've debated this for some time with respect to a 24"x24" T12 40W U-bend fixture I have in my kitchen which spends quite a lot of time ON.

According to the manufacturer: The 40-Watt linear fluorescent U-Bent light bulbs feature a light output of 1950 lumens and last up to 18,000 life hours @ ~$10 each.

If I installed five 800 lumen LED (60W equivalent) bulbs in my 24"x24" fixture, I'd get 4000 lumens at around 50W. A replacement ballast for my T12 fixture is ~$20, so Edison sockets and LED bulbs start looking like an enticing upgrade if the ballast fails.


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## maple1 (Jan 2, 2015)

I'm pretty sure a flourescent fixture uses more juice than the sum of the bulb wattage. That's what I found when initially using my Effergy - but I forget now how much extra. I was chalking it up to the ballast using it. I ended up replacing two dual bulb 48" fixtures in my office, that were on usually 12 hours a day, with two ordinary dual socket fixtures with LEDs in them.


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## velvetfoot (Jan 2, 2015)

I replaced all the bulbs in the house with 2700k leds.  I doubt I'm saving much compared with cfls, but they're performing well and are dimmable.


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## Highbeam (Jan 2, 2015)

maple1 said:


> I'm pretty sure a flourescent fixture uses more juice than the sum of the bulb wattage. That's what I found when initially using my Effergy - but I forget now how much extra. I was chalking it up to the ballast using it. I ended up replacing two dual bulb 48" fixtures in my office, that were on usually 12 hours a day, with two ordinary dual socket fixtures with LEDs in them.



Since I started paying attention, the last 15 or so tube fixture ballasts that I've installed all had a little table on them that listed input amperage for each bulb option. The tubes have a lumen label. The wattage of the tube is pretty meaningless.


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## seige101 (Jan 3, 2015)

Mainely Saws said:


> Thanks Woodgeek . The LED bulbs that I have are 800 lumens so it looks like I would need to have 5 of these bulbs to replace the light output of one T12 75w but they would only draw about 52.5 watts compared to the 75w T12 tube . Do I have that right ?


You don't calculate the energy use of a fluorescent light by using the watts printed on the bulb. You have to look at the ballast to find out how much power is consumed


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## jebatty (Jan 3, 2015)

With a Kill-o-watt and a twin tube florescent fixture rated for both 32W and 40W tubes, I measured just about 100W consumed regardless of use of T-8 32W or T-12 40W tubes. No energy savings at all. Maybe a higher quality ballast would do better, but not the ballast used in the inexpensive shop light fixture. I have replaced 3 of the old fixtures with an 11W round LED ceiling fixture, 4000K, and while not quite the same lumens the LED has brighter, easier to see lighting than the old florescent fixtures, and one of old fixtures I replaced with a similar 25W LED fixture.


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## Mainely Saws (Jan 3, 2015)

I have a 16'x24' shop area( 9 1/2ft ceilings) with two 8' twin tube florescent fixtures for overhead light ( I have numerous point of contact LED lights on different machines ) so I'm thinking of taking those down & installing a number of standard round ceiling single bulb fixtures with 11w LED 's in them . Maybe use some type of reflective shroud to help .............


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## maple1 (Jan 3, 2015)

jebatty said:


> With a Kill-o-watt and a twin tube florescent fixture rated for both 32W and 40W tubes, I measured just about 100W consumed regardless of use of T-8 32W or T-12 40W tubes. No energy savings at all. Maybe a higher quality ballast would do better, but not the ballast used in the inexpensive shop light fixture. I have replaced 3 of the old fixtures with an 11W round LED ceiling fixture, 4000K, and while not quite the same lumens the LED has brighter, easier to see lighting than the old florescent fixtures, and one of old fixtures I replaced with a similar 25W LED fixture.


 
There ya go - it wasn't just me. 

I was thinking maybe double the bulb wattage - but that's even more than that. I should go check again just for curiosity sakes.


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## DBoon (Jan 5, 2015)

jebatty said:


> I measured just about 100W consumed regardless of use of T-8 32W or T-12 40W tubes. No energy savings at all. Maybe a higher quality ballast would do better, but not the ballast used in the inexpensive shop light fixture.



I just changed out some old-style magnetic core/coil ballasts and they were rated for 120V/0.85A (102 Watts) to power a two F40 (40W) tubes, so there is 22W of loss in the old-style ballasts.  Not sure what the electronic ballasts are rated for, but I would guess they have only 20% (or less) of the core/coil ballast losses.


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## jebatty (Jan 6, 2015)

I used these in the garage, each to replace a single 100W or 150W incandescent bulb, now with 2 x 60W equiv LED's. Better light, brighter, and far less watts.


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## DBoon (Jan 7, 2015)

The ballasts I replaced were in an older friend's flourescent tube kitchen light that was "home built" years ago using shop-light hoods with F40 tubes and magnetic ballasts.  The person who built the light box sealed it up so tight the ballasts would get hot and turn off after 2 hours.  I swapped them out with electronic replacement ballasts and problem solved - they will stay on all day and night now.  Otherwise, I would not bother with keeping fluorescent tubes - would probably just go to LED strips now.


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## jebatty (Jan 8, 2015)

I have one shop light, two 32w T8 bulbs, electronic ballast, and on the Kill-o-Watt still 100w draw. This I use very little, on an occupancy sensor, so I haven't switched it out yet for LED. What I might and you might consider is stripping out the ballast and tubes and putting in LED strip lighting on your own with a 12v transformer.


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## DBoon (Jan 8, 2015)

jebatty said:


> What I might and you might consider is stripping out the ballast and tubes and putting in LED strip lighting on your own with a 12v transformer.



I was looking at that for some very old F40 hoods that I have.  They are in a rarely used part of the basement and I might get around to retrofitting them one of these days.


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## jebatty (Jan 13, 2015)

Looks like a good bulb, price is good, not dimmable, 3000K (which I like better than 2700k) LED Woot


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## jeffesonm (Jan 15, 2015)

I would like to try out a few of these..... what is a good price point I should be looking for?  I see HD has 60W Philips bulbs on sale for $4.50.


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## jebatty (Jan 15, 2015)

The price is good IMO, but pay attention to color 2700K and CRI 80. 2700K is much like incandescent but is too red for me. I like 3000 or 3200 for indoor and 5000K where bright white light is useful. I have not paid much attention to CRI but that may be important depending upon the application. HD has these for $8.97 on line with in store pickup in my location.


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## jeffesonm (Jan 17, 2015)

Picked up a few at HD today... they look nice.  Way nicer than CFLs, and instant-on is great.  I live in a mid-centry house with lots of beige, wood floors throughout, etc, so the warm/yellow is what I need.  At $0.18/kwh replacing the last few incandescents around here should pay back in short order.  Will probably grab a few more.


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## SidecarFlip (Jan 17, 2015)

I want to re-lamp both of my farm tractors from Halogen to LED, preferably CREE and at least 6000 lumens per lamp with an effective range of 1/2 mile.  I run 4 facing forward 2 facing rear and one facing to the right side.  Any suggestions?


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## Where2 (Jan 17, 2015)

SidecarFlip said:


> I want to re-lamp both of my farm tractors from Halogen to LED, preferably CREE and at least 6000 lumens per lamp with an effective range of 1/2 mile.  I run 4 facing forward 2 facing rear and one facing to the right side.  Any suggestions?



No suggestions, but I'd like to know what you find. Unfortunately, my tractor is a 6v (built in 1951) which makes it even more interesting to convert to LED.


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## SidecarFlip (Jan 17, 2015)

All the new ag stuff is LED now and my tractors are just prior to but I need to change them over as the big halogen lights I have are alternator killers.  Been looking at the NH dealer (they have a good selection of LED's), www.tractorseats.com (also have a good selection) and www.superbrightleds.com  (have a huge selection).  I'm leaning toward CREE simply because they appear to be the best and longest lasting.

I'd go with HID but HID lighting requires heavy amperage on startup whereas LED don't.


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## EatenByLimestone (Jan 24, 2015)

Since I last computed my cost per kwh at 22.5c each I've become more interested in swapping over to LEDs.  My usage is now down to the point where the $17 base charge really kills the cost per kwh.  I've been picking LEDs up slowly.  Each time I hit the store I'd buy a few.  First was the bedroom fans at 3 each.  Then the spot lighting on desks.  Today I saw 40w equivalent LEDs at Lowes on clearance at less than $4 each.  Every lamp that's on for more than an hour at a time has now been changed over except for the main kitchen light which is 4 t-8 bulbs and the upstairs fan which is 7 candelabra based bulbs.  Hopefully I'll average less than 200 kwh per month now.


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## iamlucky13 (Jan 30, 2015)

I'm still running mostly CFL's. I bought a bunch of multi-packs when I moved into my current home, about a year before the popular Cree bulb debuted at $13 (now down to $8 in my area) with higher efficiency than most bulbs available at the time, and drove the whole market down into reasonably fast payback times (~2000 hours / ~2 years compared to incandescents). However, since I bought the CFL's, I'm going to use them up.

One place I do have an LED (the Cree) is by the front door, which gets left on during the short days in the winter so we have light when we get home from work. By a rough estimate, that bulb probably has close to 4000 hours on it in a little under 2 years, which isn't enough to payback versus a CFL yet, but I calculate I'm about $8 ahead compared to having used an incandescent over that time. If I had to pay New England electricity prices, it would be more like $25 ahead.

I was going to replace the basic ceramic screw bases in my garage with T-8 fluorescents, since they're cheap and the performance specs for those versus LED's are so close. However, with Philips and Cree both claiming they'll have LED's with efficacies as high as 200 lumens/W available soon, (Philips specifically said this year), I'm waiting to see if they can make good on their promises or are just blowing hot air.



WiscWoody said:


> Natural sunlight doesn't look blue to me at all. 5000K bulbs look very bluish to me.



That's because when you see sunlight, it's almost always the brightest thing you see by a long shot. Your eyes adjust automatically and very effectively to the dominant light source. When a daylight toned bulb is the brightest thing you see, there's usually other bulbs on, and they radically shift your perception.


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## Wilbur Feral (Jan 30, 2015)

The info above about fluorescent fixtures may explain my higher than expected electric consumption (so thank you!).  We have changed out almost every light in our home to LED, got rid of the Fios power sucker boxes (one Tivo that is a bit better and Minis elsewhere), and lower power computers.  Yet the power consumption is still above what I would expect.  We work from a dedicated office in our home and I think the six dual-tube fluorescent fixtures in the office - on for about 9-10 hours per day 5 days / week and perhaps 2 - 6 hours some weekends - could be the culprit.

They are in a drop ceiling with those plastic covers under them to make them look halfway decent in the ceiling.  Any suggestion for a relatively easy way to convert those to LEDs?  I don't want to replace the whole ceiling.


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## jebatty (Jan 30, 2015)

These flat ceiling lights would be a possibility. Without the plastic cover, these are very flat and perhaps 2 in each fixture would work well. I pulled out the 2 x 40w fluorescent fixtures in our basement and replaced each with one of these, the least expensive ones: 3 - 11" ($27.99) and 1 - 14" ($39.99). We have a 4 x 24 fluorescent fixture in our hallway and I am going to remove the innards of that and replace with two of these ceiling lights inside the existing fluorescent can, but keeping the plastic cover for the existing fixture.

http://www.globalindustrial.com/searchResult?searchBox=&q=led+ceiling


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## maple1 (Jan 30, 2015)

Wilbur Feral said:


> The info above about fluorescent fixtures may explain my higher than expected electric consumption (so thank you!).  We have changed out almost every light in our home to LED, got rid of the Fios power sucker boxes (one Tivo that is a bit better and Minis elsewhere), and lower power computers.  Yet the power consumption is still above what I would expect.  We work from a dedicated office in our home and I think the six dual-tube fluorescent fixtures in the office - on for about 9-10 hours per day 5 days / week and perhaps 2 - 6 hours some weekends - could be the culprit.
> 
> They are in a drop ceiling with those plastic covers under them to make them look halfway decent in the ceiling.  Any suggestion for a relatively easy way to convert those to LEDs?  I don't want to replace the whole ceiling.



I think running those lights here would amount to about $7/week.


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## iamlucky13 (Jan 30, 2015)

@Wilbur Feral - I guess if the 100 W/pair figure cited above is accurate, the usage you describe is $15-20 a month. Also a typical desktop and monitor draws 150-200 W ($4-6/mo at 10 hours per weekday), and a smaller unit maybe around 100 W. Plus factor in your regular home usage. You don't have electric water heating, do you? That can add up fast.

Anyways, if your lights are the normal recessed troffers, you can get replacement LED troffers like these:
https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/2x4-led-troffer-fixtures/

Or keep your existing fixtures and use tubular LED's like these, but the lumen rating is a low lower than a regular T8, and for some brands (not the Cree), you have to rewire your fixture to bypass the ballast:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Cree-TW-...48-17040FLW-BDG13-1C100/205737571?N=5yc1vZbol

Or wait a year or so and see if Philips was being honest when they said they'll have 200 lm/W tubular LED's out soon.


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## Wilbur Feral (Jan 30, 2015)

Thanks, all.  Great info. Not so worried about cost as much as figuring out how to reduce waste.  And HW is Geospring (love it).


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## NJ_Burner08002 (Feb 15, 2015)

Electric bill I just received was $17.99.  Lol.    This is the first month bill without Christmas lights.   Love LED bulbs.


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## STIHLY DAN (Feb 15, 2015)

NJ_Burner08002 said:


> Electric bill I just received was $17.99.  Lol.    This is the first month bill without Christmas lights.   Love LED bulbs.



YOU SUCK My delivery fee + line charges + maintenance fee. Is 3 times that, and that's if I shut power off to the house.


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## maple1 (Feb 15, 2015)

Uh yeah, pretty sure I pay more than that just to have a meter.


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## Where2 (Feb 15, 2015)

STIHLY DAN said:


> My delivery fee + line charges + maintenance fee. Is 3 times that, and that's if I shut power off to the house.





maple1 said:


> Uh yeah, pretty sure I pay more than that just to have a meter.



Sounds like the electric utilities make their investors proud off your neighborhoods... I found a neighborhood north of Dan and south of Maple where I only pay $10.99 per month, including the first 100kWh.


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## maple1 (Feb 15, 2015)

OK, I may stand to be corrected. I just pulled out my last bill, and it has listed base charge of 10.83/mo.

But still, a $17.99 power bill - power bill envy.


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## NJ_Burner08002 (Feb 15, 2015)

My gas bill was only 67.00.     I love my insert.    But the LED bulb thing is crazy.   Can't believe my electric bill dropped so much.   This time last year I paid 460 combined for electric and gas.      150 for electric and 310 for gas.


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## EatenByLimestone (Feb 15, 2015)

Mine


NJ_Burner08002 said:


> My gas bill was only 67.00.     I love my insert.    But the LED bulb thing is crazy.   Can't believe my electric bill dropped so much.   This time last year I paid 460 combined for electric and gas.      150 for electric and 310 for gas.




My electric portion dropped as well.  I paid $48.03 with taxes for 218 kWh.  I can't wait to see my usage for this summer.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 17, 2015)

NJ_Burner08002 said:


> Electric bill I just received was $17.99.  Lol.    This is the first month bill without Christmas lights.   Love LED bulbs.


Is that even possible? The customer charge here in Pa is 16 something before you use even 1 Kw of juice.


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## Rearscreen (Feb 18, 2015)

HD in CT had these on sale for under 4 bucks each. I bought about 50, I love them. Savings on electric bill (replacing cfls) has been substantial. Not touting these specifically, other LED's are just as good.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 18, 2015)

I havnt noticed any difference in my power bill since replacing CFLs with LEDs . In most case the LEDs use very close to the same watts as the Cfls. I havnt used Regular Inc bulbs in years.


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## iamlucky13 (Feb 18, 2015)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I havnt noticed any difference in my power bill since replacing CFLs with LEDs . In most case the LEDs use very close to the same watts as the Cfls. I havnt used Regular Inc bulbs in years.



Usually 14 W for the CFL's versus 9-12 W for the LED's. Very little difference.

Personally, I didn't notice a difference even when switching from incandescents. I calculate it should have been in the ballpark of $5/month savings, but since I estimated I was only spending $6-7/month on lighting, the savings disappear into the monthly variation.

Those Philips Slimstyle bulbs that Rearscreen mentioned get dismissed too easily because they're funny shaped. I think this led a lot of people to assume the light pattern is uneven, and look very, very closely for an unevenness at all. I've seen several negative reviews for them where the use held the bulb inches from a sheet of paper to highlight a dim line near the seam. What they never did, however, was hold it a realistic distance from an object, in which case the dim line disappears.

Honestly, I'm really impressed with how even the light is from that funny shape - not just around the bulb, but above and below it, too. It's also one of the lightest LED's I've seen, which is good in fixtures that sag under the weight of a heavy aluminum heat sink.

The only consistent downside I've heard of for it is audible humming when dimmed. I don't have any dimmers, so it's not a problem.


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## Rearscreen (Feb 18, 2015)

Some LED's have a heavy base, these are very lite. Many people install these bulbs with old style SCR dimmers which will create a hum. But, like iamlucky13, I don't have any dimmers. One problem I had was installing in a small hole recessed can. I added a base extension and solved that problem. Also, it's funny, Philips had to say specifically on the package that the light comes out of it 360 degrees, their consumer research must have shown that many would think otherwise. Here's a comparison chart. http://www.designrecycleinc.com/led comp chart.html


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## woodgeek (Feb 18, 2015)

RE dimmers...I got $$ led-rated dimmers, and they make all my LED bulbs hum (v slightly).  I **think** if I get a 'magnetic' dimmer that problem will go away....anyone want to educate me one way or the other?


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## NJ_Burner08002 (Feb 18, 2015)

I used 90 kWh


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## iamlucky13 (Feb 18, 2015)

woodgeek said:


> RE dimmers...I got $$ led-rated dimmers, and they make all my LED bulbs hum (v slightly).  I **think** if I get a 'magnetic' dimmer that problem will go away....anyone want to educate me one way or the other?



I don't think so, but I haven't tried it. All the magnetic dimmers I've seen are for low voltage DC systems. The screw-base bulbs are designed for AC line voltage. I don't think the bulb will come on at all.

Currently, there is no perfect dimming technique for screw-base LED's. For commercial DC systems, I think there are, but the retrofitting forces screw-base lamp designers to compromise solutions of varying effectiveness, because they're trying to make a bulb with a high-efficiency AC-DC converter squeezed into a tiny package work with varying input from a lot of different dimmer designs.

So I think your best bet is to read reviews on bulbs to see if current users have issues with dimming buzz.

The expensive WiFi controlled bulbs like Philips Hue are probably an exception. Since the dimming circuit is matched to the bulb and under the designer's control, they should be able to get around some of the problems that arise with external dimmers.

Either way, the impression I have is most users find most bulbs make acceptably low levels of noise on dimmers, but not the Philips Slimstyle.


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## jebatty (Feb 19, 2015)

For dimmers, I've been lucky. Four sets of LED's on some very old dimmers, and all work fine without humming, except that one bulb hummed. Switched to another bulb to solve the hum.

As to wattage, My old 13W CFL's show a current draw of 0.3A on the base, which translates to 120V x 0.3A = 36W. Similar to the old twin 40W (and 32W T-8) florescent lights - both showed 100W on the Kill-o-watt.


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## iamlucky13 (Feb 19, 2015)

If you're measuring amperage of devices with a switching power supply like CFL bulbs, your power calculation will probably be off due to the low power factor of devices like CFL's.

If you're measuring with a KillaWatt, that should be trustworthy because it supposedly measures power factor and separately reports volt-amps (not corrected for power factor) and Watts (corrected for power factor).

Other sources that have compared CFL's and LED's have reported actual power draw accounting for power factor in the ballpark of the manufacturer claims. For example, I like LEDbenchmark.com because they do consistently detailed tests of a lot of bulbs (the downside is they're in Australian, so most of what's on the US market gets missed). Here's their CFL test:
http://www.ledbenchmark.com/display.php?id=76&name=Mirabella+13W+CFL

If a CFL is actually drawing 36 Watts, I wouldn't expect it to last more than an hour or two. That's almost 3 times the energy as specified. It should be heating up hundreds of degrees and burning out - it's roughly the same amount of energy as a 40 W incandescent, and you know how hot those get.


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