# What is the Ideal storage method in new construction?



## Jags (Dec 14, 2010)

I had a question asked from a friend that I simply don't know the answer to, so I thought I would pose it to you hot water folks.

In a new construction environment - money is no object - what is the best water storage that could be implemented or included in the house?  Would you pour a concrete storage cistern? Drop in a couple of big tanks for stratification?? What?

What would be the "perfect" config to be used with a gassifier?

I really am looking to throw some ideas at my friend.  The question was based off of a 2000sqft ranch.


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## pybyr (Dec 14, 2010)

Here's some interesting stuff from hydronic guru John Sigenthaler:

http://www.pmmag.com/Articles/Column/7df8232b040d7010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____

At the same time, if the new construction won't be all that huge, and will have a relatively open floor plan, a well-designed and built masonry heater is wonderfully effective, and wonderfully simple.


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## Nofossil (Dec 14, 2010)

If it were me, I'd designate a portion of the north wall of the house, basement and first floor, to be framed in as a storage room. I'd stand two (or maybe many more) 1000 gallon propane tanks on end. I'd plumb them, pressure test them, and insulate the heck out of them. Probably seal off the bottom, back, and top of them and blow in cellulose until it's pretty tight. At least 2' on the outside wall and 3' on the top surface. I'd leave some reasonable access for making plumbing changes, adding heat exchangers, and so on.

I'd use solar panels to heat them (in sequence) during the summer. I'd also use them during the summer as a heat sink for my heat pump when it's acting as an air conditioner.

During the winter, I'd draw heat from them as needed - to heat the house, to heat the DHW and hot tub, and as a last resort, to act as a heat source for my heat pump. I'd add heat as needed with occasional full-bore fires in my gasifier.

My goal would be to have all of them topped off at 180 degrees from solar panel and heat pump (air conditioning) activity at the end of Fall, and to have most of them at 32.1 degrees at the end of the winter.


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## sdrobertson (Dec 14, 2010)

I would love a 1000 gallon propane tank standing upright.  You would need a pretty deep sub-basement in the basement and watch the water level under the ground.


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## Chris Hoskin (Dec 14, 2010)

yeah, love the idea of a 1000 gallon vertical pressurized tank.  Not the best for making dhw as is, so I would want to fit it with an oversized dhw heat exchanger.


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## Nofossil (Dec 14, 2010)

It would be interesting to see if it would be reasonable to design in enough storage (in a well insulated house) so that you could store an entire winter's worth of heat.


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## Jags (Dec 14, 2010)

Good ideas with the propane tanks, but wouldn't two stacked on top of each other get the stratification needed.  Keep in mind - that we are not talking OFF GRID.  He doesn't have a problem with processing wood, but I think he would have a problem with stacking up a half dozen 1000 gal propane tanks.

He is just looking at a real world install for a new construction home.  I won't be changing his mind on home layout/floor plan at this point, but he was asking if while pouring a foundation, he should be considering some of this.  In order to really consider this properly, a model of some sorts needs to be planned.  That is where I am at.


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## djblech (Dec 14, 2010)

I think Trevor is on to something. Simple is going to be the key to any future wood heating systems I install. I like my boiler, but it is anything but simple. I need to be here on a constant basis to stoke and maintain heat. If the power goes out, I am in a bad situation even if I have a back-up generator or batteries. I don't have storage, but that is just another system that could be problematic. Then there is the total cost of installation. I know that when my boiler dies, I will be considering a masonry or just a 1 or 2 wood stove solution to my heating problem. 
Doug


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## Jags (Dec 14, 2010)

djblech said:
			
		

> I think Trevor is on to something.



I do to.  I really like the whole masonry heater thing, but I don't think that has even crossed my friends mind.


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## Como (Dec 14, 2010)

A new properly designed and built house of 2,000 sq ft would have a heat loss of less than 20,000 btu hr max.

Properly sited most of that could be obtained passively. For hot water and back up you could use solar in floor with a small back up gas/propane boiler, demand would be so low that using a wood boiler would just not be worth it. I assume you would need gas/propane for cooking.

Personally I would add a small wood stove for ambiance and as a booster, with its own outside makeup air supply.


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## Jags (Dec 14, 2010)

Como said:
			
		

> A new properly designed and built house of 2,000 sq ft would have a heat loss of less than 20,000 btu hr max.



Really?? I am not up to snuff on the new code and requirements, etc.  Do you have any "favorite" place to sniff around at these designs?  This is more on a personal level than with my friends question.

Heck - I think my bedroom requires 20,000 btu an hour. :lol:


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## Adios Pantalones (Dec 14, 2010)

Take this where it comes from, but I'd want pressurized storage to allow DHW in the summer, as well as solar input for DHW.  

You could have a hydronic heated masonry heater with a shutoff valve- no need to heat it in the summer.


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## Jags (Dec 14, 2010)

Adios Pantalones said:
			
		

> You could have a hydronic heated masonry heater with a shutoff valve-



Trying to get the big picture - do you mean a mass of stone that is being heated by hot water (pipes running through it)?


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## Como (Dec 14, 2010)

Jags said:
			
		

> Como said:
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It is a long term plan of mine. Might be very long term unless the economy picks up.

My situation includes severe cold in the winter, no need for air con in the summer, nasty north winds but lots of solar gain. I started a blog. Maybe one day.

http://comobermhouse.blogspot.com/2010/02/welcome-to-our-house-blog.html

Building codes are usually a long way behind best practice.


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## Jags (Dec 14, 2010)

Very interesting Como, and thanks for the link.

So - foundation wise - anything that I should being thinking about for storage options??


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## welderboyjk (Dec 15, 2010)

My neighbors just built a new house with "extensions" off of the basement that were filled with sand and "capped" for a floor on a covered porch. I have often wondered about insulating such areas and running a bunch of pex through something like that and using it for storage.


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## Hunderliggur (Dec 15, 2010)

Jags said:
			
		

> Very interesting Como, and thanks for the link.
> 
> So - foundation wise - anything that I should being thinking about for storage options??



A walkout basement with at least one large French door, 6-0 x 6-8, preferably 6-0x8-0. That way you can bring the tanks in with a tractor/Bobcat. I stacked my tanks horizontally with the Bobcat forks in the doorway and moved them in the basement with a pallet jack. A below grade wall penetration for potential underground pipes in the future.


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## btuser (Dec 15, 2010)

The best place to store heat is in the fuel.  You lose efficiency as soon as you light a match.  Massive storage would mean massive losses, either stored in water or a concrete slab.  I would start with passive solar (which doesn't have to be ugly), then super insulation keeping in mind a need to dehumidify because we people give off a ton of water.  sSo after I knew where my house was going to be built, what direction it would face, I would look for the center and build a masonary heater. 

Wood boilers are great for homes that were built around fossil fuel but if you're starting from scratch I would definately go with the masonary heater.   It all depends on why you're building a house.


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## Jags (Dec 15, 2010)

I understand the "best case" scenario for energy efficiency, but it ain't my house and he ain't gonna go redesigning it for me.  The floor plan is done.  A basic - open - 2000 sqft ranch.  That is what I am working with.  He is looking into gassers with storage.  That is the other piece of the puzzle.  Since there has been no "glaringly" obvious suggestions on the foundation work (other than access - good idea, but it won't have a ground level basement access), I will assume at this point that no special attention is needed for the foundation.


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## in hot water (Dec 15, 2010)

For a hydronic system, water may still be the best storage media.  Well insulated tanks, I'd like a removable HX in the tank via a top manhole.

A floor drain is a must have in a basement or near any finished area.  Leaks happen.

hr


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## Floydian (Dec 15, 2010)

I have been going round and round on this subject for the last year or so. Currently in the design phase of a house for my folks and obviously the heating system controls a lot of design aspects. 

Construction will be 2x6 with sprayed in cellulose in voids. Then 2-3 inches of recycled 4x8 Poly Iso (sealing all gaps, cracks) then 1x strapping (vertical) 2ft o.c. then lap siding. Similar detail on vaulted ceilings and close attention to foundation insulating and this should be a house in the 10 to 12 btu/sq ft at design(0 deg F for us). R-3 Windows really stand out now in the heat loss calc but it gets hard to justify jumping up to triple panes when it means lots more money to burn a tiny bit less wood a year.

Solar thermal heating is the ultimate but when you start crunching the numbers(btus and $$$)it can get out of hand real quick. 

Wood is the fuel source for us as we live on 72 acres of mostly wooded land and have always heated with wood. Now, to do it with maximum efficiency, comfort and convenience.

Masonry heaters are very appealing in a lot of ways. No power needed, High aesthetic value, efficient, comfy radiant heat, convenience of one or maybe two fires a day. From discussions with a couple of friends with MH they get a bit harder to control in the shoulder season as you are building fires based on conditions that are 12 to 24 hours away. This makes overshooting or undershooting a reality at times. Still they like the MH a lot but might do things different if starting over. Also parts of the houses that just don't get as much heat as they want and these are open house layouts. 

Masonry boilers were discussed earlier. Check this out if you haven't seen it, its pretty cool:

http://heatkit.com/html/lopezs.htm

Of course now your adding electrical requirements and negating one of the big advantages of the masonry heater. But now you can get more heat to the extremities of the house(Bathrooms!).

IMO the gassifyer+storage+low temp emitters comes out ahead in the end for efficiency, comfort and convenience. Like a masonry heater it is a high mass heating system but one where you can put the heat where you want it, when you want it. Plus DHW year round. 

Man, I can't wait to get my Varmebaronen and storage set up. Probably about the spring time  

Noah


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## Como (Dec 15, 2010)

Floydian said:
			
		

> IMO the gassifyer+storage+low temp emitters comes out ahead in the end for efficiency, comfort and convenience. Like a masonry heater it is a high mass heating system but one where you can put the heat where you want it, when you want it. Plus DHW year round.



The link I have above suggest about 10,000 btu peak, really cold night. At that level a gasser becomes hard to justify. Even where I am you would be burning a cord or so a year. (10,500 HDD) At current prices $300 a year for Propane, less for NG and you have to have the gas anyway for cooking. A couple of solar panels would cover a lot of that. Or a small wood stove.

If it is a much bigger house and/or with other buildings, then the numbers start becoming more interesting.

Sounds like you are building your parents house on the same lot? Could you use just one boiler?

I think with windows, location is king, make sure they all pretty much face south.

I was thinking why there are no Garn type boilers in Euroland.

They are physically very big.

Average house is smaller/better insulated.

Far fewer people have access to free or low cost wood.

Emissions, Garn is not bad but probably would not pass the German regs for example.


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## Floydian (Dec 15, 2010)

Hi David,

I agree, gassers can become hard to justify cost wise but I think comfort is also really hard to put a price on. My payback on this system is probably longer than most members here(a little less than 10 years counting DHW vs propane and electric) but I am pretty tired of the wood stove routine and I think propane and electric prices have only one direction to go.

As far as one boiler to heat two houses this is exactly what I was originally hoping to do. A Garn located between two houses (about 400' apart) but after many Boiler Room hours I decided against it for several reasons. Way to much underground piping for my liking, standby heat loss in a place a cant really take advantage of it, and having to build a structure I don't otherwise need. We can actually save a bit of money by installing a boiler+storage in each house and this makes all standby losses usable. I sure do love the Garn though.

I hear you on the windows but I am just not willing to give up the beautiful views of the scenery around us to eliminate too many windows. We also get a wonderful cross draft through our house (as will my folks house) that eliminates the need for any AC needs.
I find there to be many trade offs no matter how I look at this whole heating situation.

Noah


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## Como (Dec 15, 2010)

Floydian said:
			
		

> I find there to be many trade offs no matter how I look at this whole heating situation.



We can all agree on that!


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## tom in maine (Dec 16, 2010)

I think that if you are talking about a relatively low heat load like 10k btus, a gasifier still makes very good sense. With proper sized storage,
you can fire the unit every other day.
My heat load is 6,000 btus/hr at design temp of -10F. This week I have fired our unit every other day or every two days, depending on how cold it was.
This is for heat and hot water for two people
If there was a solar input and it was not December in Maine (only 40% sunny days), you can really stretch out the use of a wood boiler.

If the backup ever comes on (fuel oil) I feel really uncomfortable, even though I probably used about five gallons last year and the 75 or so gallons in the tank has been there over two years. I do need to use it up before it becomes sludge.

The investment in wood is then an ethical investment. Do you really want to buy oil or gas or use wood? I like the idea of getting the fuel that I grew or my neighbor grew.

My 2 cents worth about storage. An unpressurized tank with a plate or coil hx is going to be less expensive if you factor in all the actual costs.
Installing pressurized systems with its logistical cost, big expansion vessels, proper insulation and plumbing is a significant investment.
An unpressurized system is simpler to service. Yes, I am in the business, but an objective analysis of the systems might be worthwhile.


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## pybyr (Dec 16, 2010)

Tom's well-taken points raise another issue.

Regarding the cost of expansion tanks for pressurized storage-- the Europeans apparently often use a "semi-open" system where the expansion tank is located relatively high in the building, above any of the served loads, and that expansion tank has a small opening at the top.  The weight of the water from there down to the boiler at the lowest part of the system supplies a certain amount of pressure.  Since the elevated expansion tank can be a relatively ordinary vessel (no need to contain actual pressure there, or have bladder, air, etc.) it can be fairly low-tech and inexpensive (compared to what we normally think of as "expansion tanks."  

So, if building a building with an intent to run pressurized storage (if that is what one chose to do), perhaps try to build in (space-wise and structurally) a place for such an elevated expansion tank.


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## Como (Dec 16, 2010)

We are in danger of getting the which is greener, Prius vs Hummer type debate.

In Colorado with that load I could source it from mainly from solar, so I probably would not look any further. 100 sqft with storage, not sure quite how much, would take of most of the load.

I think it would be a hard sell except for most non committed wood burning types, and there is so much more low hanging fruit.

With regards to the semi open system, I know that is the norm for most residential houses, or certainly has been, I am a bit out of date.  There are some issues, nothing is ever perfect, from dead birds in the tank to the need to make up evaporation loss and the consequent gunk that can come into the system, especially in hard water areas.


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## Fred61 (Dec 16, 2010)

Floydian said:
			
		

> I have been going round and round on this subject for the last year or so. Currently in the design phase of a house for my folks and obviously the heating system controls a lot of design aspects.
> 
> Construction will be 2x6 with sprayed in cellulose in voids. Then 2-3 inches of recycled 4x8 Poly Iso (sealing all gaps, cracks) then 1x strapping (vertical) 2ft o.c. then lap siding. Similar detail on vaulted ceilings and close attention to foundation insulating and this should be a house in the 10 to 12 btu/sq ft at design(0 deg F for us). R-3 Windows really stand out now in the heat loss calc but it gets hard to justify jumping up to triple panes when it means lots more money to burn a tiny bit less wood a year.
> 
> ...




Just wanted to make a comment on your insulation. Although the manufacturers of polyiso suggest using it as sheathing I feel that if it has the foil surface it becomes a vapor barrier. Applying it to the outside of your insulated wall could cause it to trap water in your insulated stud bays. The instructions for installation call for a metal strip to be applied along the edge for air flow which I think defeats some of its insulating value. 

Over the years, I have used it on several projects but I applied it to the interior of the studs and applied the wallboard over it which was a pain in the you know what but along with insulating, it provided me with a vapor barrier and it isolated the sheetrock from the studs allowing the sheetrock to contribute to the thermal mass even on the outside walls.


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## tom in maine (Dec 16, 2010)

This could become a very very long thread.
I like the Lopez masonry boiler. 
If you read some of the description, they talk about it overheating the space it is in.
Something like this really screams for either very good insulation (like a Seton, etc.) or installation
in a space that needs a lot of space heat that would come off the shell like a masonry stove.

Regardless, it is for a high heat load space as constructed on the website.

On insulated sheathing: In our climate, here in Maine, the guideline is that if it is over R-10, the wall cavity will be 
above the dewpoint and condensation is not a problem. More is better.

If one has the luxury of building a new home or completely renovating an old one, insulate the hell out of it.
www.building science.com is a great resource for concerns about how to avoid expensive mistakes.

If a building is superinsulated, all other heating choices become a lot less expensive.

You only buy insulation once.


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## WEDONTNEEDNOOILLETTHEMOTHERBURN (Feb 1, 2011)

well this thread has really thrown me for a loop, but as this is my first post on here i'll start by saying hello.  i live in central NH and am planning on building a new house(probably around 1800 sf ranch) either this summer or the next on an 8 acre lot i just purchased.  ive been reading on here for a few weeks now as i am pretty sure i want to install a wood boiler in the new house.  but then i stumbled across this thread and some people are saying that in a new construction with good insulation a boiler might not be the way to go.  some are suggesting a masonry heater(which i had never heard of until today) and i think someone else said a plain old wood stove would be plenty to heat a new house.  as i said i dont really know much about a masonry heater but it seems to me that it would have some trouble evenly heating the entire house, especially if you dont necessarily want all your bedroom and bathroom doors open 24/7.  i appreciate the fact that it requires no electricity to operate, thats a great feature, but not at the sacrifice of comfortably heating the ENTIRE living space.  and what is the price of having something like that installed?  i checked out the link with the masonry boiler, pretty cool idea, but is it a realistic option to heat my house?  and how hard would it be to find someone that could install something like that?  someone also said that a wood boiler is good for a house designed around fossil fuel but if you are building new you may want to look at going other directions, but arent i going to want some kind of backup system anyways like an oil burner incase i want to take a vaca in the winter or get injured and cant do the wood thing for a while?  i feel more confused now than i was before i came here lol please straighten me out!


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## woodsmaster (Feb 1, 2011)

WEDONTNEEDNOOILLETTHEMOTHERBURN said:
			
		

> well this thread has really thrown me for a loop, but as this is my first post on here i'll start by saying hello. i live in central NH and am planning on building a new house(probably around 1800 sf ranch) either this summer or the next on an 8 acre lot i just purchased. ive been reading on here for a few weeks now as i am pretty sure i want to install a wood boiler in the new house. but then i stumbled across this thread and some people are saying that in a new construction with good insulation a boiler might not be the way to go. some are suggesting a masonry heater(which i had never heard of until today) and i think someone else said a plain old wood stove would be plenty to heat a new house. as i said i dont really know much about a masonry heater but it seems to me that it would have some trouble evenly heating the entire house, especially if you dont necessarily want all your bedroom and bathroom doors open 24/7. i appreciate the fact that it requires no electricity to operate, thats a great feature, but not at the sacrifice of comfortably heating the ENTIRE living space. and what is the price of having something like that installed? i checked out the link with the masonry boiler, pretty cool idea, but is it a realistic option to heat my house? and how hard would it be to find someone that could install something like that? someone also said that a wood boiler is good for a house designed around fossil fuel but if you are building new you may want to look at going other directions, but arent i going to want some kind of backup system anyways like an oil burner incase i want to take a vaca in the winter or get injured and cant do the wood thing for a while? i feel more confused now than i was before i came here lol please straighten me out!



If I was building new and had access to natural gas I would super insulate, then put in radiant floor and a condensing boiler and forget about the wood. the $8,000 or so you save will buy a lot of gas. Just my 2cents.


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## Como (Feb 2, 2011)

Heat distribution

Insulated houses need mechanical ventilation, pull out the stale heated air and pre heat the incoming cold air via a heat exchanger.

Back up heat supply

Whilst you are not there the main requirement is to stop the building freezing. It will be -27F where I am tonight and I know people who have houses that will not freeze at these temperatures. Might be an extreme but if you can capture heat by design and stop it getting out then you are good to go.

Not everybody wants to go to these extremes so a small back up electricity/gas system would be the way to go, just in case.

There is a point of diminishing returns, which varies by individual circumstances. And individual location.

I like the idea that the house design basically takes care of itself and which I can top up if I want to be really warm.


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## leaddog (Feb 2, 2011)

Back to original question. I would design one wall with 4 propane tanks on end on the outside wall. Highly insulated with access from the outside in case you need to work on them. 5ftx15ft is the footprint and could blend in with the outline well. Install a drain in case you need to drain. I would then build a small building a short distance away for the boiler as I like the boiler away from the house but it could be put in the house if you want. Depending on location solar could be installed on the tank wall to supplement.
leaddog


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## heaterman (Feb 2, 2011)

Jags said:
			
		

> Como said:
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Read Joe Lstibureks book about construction for cold weather climates. It's full of good ideas and proven methods that can easily get you down to 10 btu's / sq ft.  If you are building a new home his book is the best investment you could possibly make. It should be mandatory reading for every builder in the Northern half of the US. Unfortunately most that I have shown the book to dismiss it offhand as a bunch of  garbage.  I don't like those people. They do a great disservice to their customers by using antiquated methods and materials. 
Bear in mind that when you design for that level of structural integrity, mechanical ventilation and heat recovery are just about mandatory. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Lstiburek

http://www.amazon.com/Builders-Guide-Climates-Joseph-Lstiburek/dp/B000OSLFWK


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## Frozen Canuck (Feb 2, 2011)

Couldn't agree more. His books & articles are all well worth the read. 

The man definetely has his brain in the right groove...too bad so few North Americans realize the value of what he teaches & preaches. Others (western europeans) for example, take his teachings learn them, reproduce them, fine tune them & then resell them to us in the form of products & technologies. If we ever intend to get out or back in front we have got to start learning to listen to those in our own continent who are ahead of the curve instead of sending them abroad. 

There I go again....asking us to think & learn....time for me to go find a brick wall....I feel a headache coming on. ;-)  Time to go flatten my forehead again! :shut:


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## Frozen Canuck (Feb 2, 2011)

On a more seroius note Jags. We are achieving a 10 btu/sq/ft on a regular basis here in the net zero homes constructed in the area. The newest generation of net zero homes has a goal of 5 btu/sq/ft. These are incorporating some newer tech such as grey water heat recovery. System uses a tank to hold grey water which is attached to a HX (filtered of course). Home heat calls look for heat at this HX first so as much heat as possible (without stopping the plumbing) is recovered. Even if all your friend can achieve is 10 btu/sq/ft in his new home. Well he may find that he needs far less storage than he first thought. Something the size of a bathtub may just do the trick. He wont need to replace the btu's he doesnt waste.


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## shortline (Feb 2, 2011)

nofossil said:
			
		

> My goal would be to have all of them topped off at 180 degrees from solar panel and heat pump (air conditioning) activity at the end of Fall, and to have most of them at 32.1 degrees at the end of the winter.



Interesting thread!  What someone needs to do is establish a middle of the road model house with set heating and cooling requirements, and calculate how much water storage it would take to achieve nofossil's goal.  I'd also like to see the numbers on closed(pressurized) verses open storage systems.  From what I've gleaned in the few months of following this forum is that; water heat storage is necessary for optimum efficiencies in biomass fuel usage and for solar storage.  But I've not seen any calculations on how much storage is necessary other than the old how deep are your pockets calculation.


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## PassionForFire&Water (Feb 2, 2011)

I build a Insulted Concrete Forms (ICF) house about 10 years ago.
If I would do it again, I would incorporate a storage tank into the basement with ICF.
You can build a large volume box (>1000 gallons) for very little money. Cost all-in these days ICF runs from $12 to $15 per square foot of wall surface. This includes labor.
Then you line it with a liner and put your copper coils in and make a top cover for it. See other treads on this forum.
Now, if I really would build an other new home, i definitely would go the Passive House or Net Zero Energy way; 5 BTU/hr heating requirement or less
You probably don't need a wood boiler at all, maybe just a nice architectural indoor wood boiler with DHW capability or wood boiler stove for ambiance and/or DHW in combination with solar hot water in summer and shoulder seasons.


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## PassionForFire&Water (Feb 2, 2011)

shortline said:
			
		

> nofossil said:
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While i'm waiting for 2 feet of snow to come down and an 8-year old that is very happy because there is no school today, .... here we go:

Based on a 20,000 BTU/Hr heating requirement as per Como's input

Calculation:

1000 gallons x 8.35 Lb/gallons = 8,350 Lbs of water
Let's assume a Delta T of 30 Â°F 8,350 x 30 = 250,500 BTU storage

We burn Red Oak, what has 8,500 BTU/Lb on a dry base.

250,000 / 8,500 = 29 lbs of red oak

Assume 20% moisture content > 29 x 1.2 = 34.8 Lbs

Assume 80% overall efficiency of your wood boiler > 34.8 Lbs x 1.2 = 42 Lbs of red oak required *to keep your 1000 gallons storage tank charged*

A 1000 gallons tank can store around 250,000 BTU and would bring you 250,000 / 20,000 = 12.5 hours of heat or 2 times re-fueling of your boiler per day 

A 2000 gallons tank can store around 500,000 BTU and would bring you 500,000 / 20,000 = 25 hours of heat or only 1 time re-fueling of your boiler per day (depends how much wood your boiler can hold)


Please, somebody double check this calculation :cheese:


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## heaterman (Feb 2, 2011)

10 btu/sq ft is why you see a lot of European wood boiler, Viessmann for example, shown with outputs of 50,000 btu or less and only 160 gallons of storage.  Nooooow it makes sense eh?


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## Como (Feb 2, 2011)

PassionForFire&Water; said:
			
		

> shortline said:
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My number was peak load, where I am you could probably multiply the duration by 3, in less sunny areas by 2 as the temp will vary over the course of the day. 

And then it depends on how often it is your minimum temp, we have had about 4 days at -20 this year, usually 0 is a more common cold temp. So usually the storage would last a lot longer.

And then there is the solar gain, even in the fairly nasty little house we are living in at the moment, when it is above freezing and the sun is shining the heating goes off. 

And finally the occupancy load, heat generated from cooking, people, dogs etc.

I would expect that in reality you might expect a once a day refill with 1000  gallons in the very worst conditions and a few times a week normally.

I might be tempted to go with smaller storage the solar could keep heated, and then kick in the wood or whatever more often when needed.


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## Frozen Canuck (Feb 2, 2011)

Exactly Heaterman; as well as the almost total absence of the 4000/5000/6000 or larger McMansion, that needs a Jesus big McHeating system, requires several very large McTruckloads of materials to build, (built thoughtlessly McWrong) here in most cases. With little or no thought to the McEnvironment it is in or its McOrientation on the property etc, etc, etc. We really have a McHuge list of what we McWaste here, then we have the McNerve to McBitch about it, not McLearn from it. 

I think it was Einstein that said the definition of insanity is repeating the same thing over & over & expecting different results, if so then we are simply insane. 

Kind of explains why the European's look at us the way they do.   In our words I dont think they trust as far as they could throw us.

There; thats my morning rant, think I'll go split some wood.


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## Fred61 (Feb 2, 2011)

PassionForFire&Water; said:
			
		

> I build a *Insulted* Concrete Forms (ICF) house about 10 years ago.
> If I would do it again, I would incorporate a storage tank into the basement with ICF.
> You can build a large volume box (>1000 gallons) for very little money. Cost all-in these days ICF runs from $12 to $15 per square foot of wall surface. This includes labor.
> Then you line it with a liner and put your copper coils in and make a top cover for it. See other treads on this forum.
> ...



Oh my goodness. What could you have said to them to insult them in such a way? They deserve an apology. 

Sorry!! couldn't help myself. Just too good to pass up!!


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## WEDONTNEEDNOOILLETTHEMOTHERBURN (Feb 2, 2011)

woodsmaster said:
			
		

> WEDONTNEEDNOOILLETTHEMOTHERBURN said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




well im pretty sure i want wood to be my main source of heat as it is free and i enjoy producing it.  but maybe what youre saying is that id be better off with a simple wood stove than a wood boiler or a masonry heater due to installation price.  would a wood stove in the basement act the same as radiant floor heating?  i feel like a wood stove on the first floor would be overkill and the place would be 90 degrees before i knew it.


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## heaterman (Feb 2, 2011)

Answering the construction question first will enable you to make intelligent decisions about your heating/cooling needs. If it's 1800 sq ft and standard stick built construction then a wood boiler may be a good choice. Especially if you may add on or build additional garages, polebarns or whatever in the future. 
If on the other hand you take some steps to build a very tight well insulated home, that wood stove in the basement may be a very good suggestion for you to consider. The only thing you would lose is the ability to heat your domestic hot water. 

So. Are we going 2x4 stick built walls? 2x6? 2x6 + an inch of foam on the outside? ICF? That's what you need to answer before the wood boiler/wood stove/gas boiler question.


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## WEDONTNEEDNOOILLETTHEMOTHERBURN (Feb 2, 2011)

well i honestly dont know much about building a house.  what is the price comparison when you look at either building a normally constructed house with a wood boiler vs. a very well insulated house with a cheaper heating system?


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## Fsappo (Feb 2, 2011)

WEDONTNEEDNOOILLETTHEMOTHERBURN

Best forum name ever.


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## Como (Feb 2, 2011)

WEDONTNEEDNOOILLETTHEMOTHERBURN said:
			
		

> well i honestly dont know much about building a house.  what is the price comparison when you look at either building a normally constructed house with a wood boiler vs. a very well insulated house with a cheaper heating system?



You would need to define both those terms for a start, factor in your heat loads and location, take into account re sale value and your time costs in producing and feeding the boilers. And of course your local construction costs.

I am going the wood boiler route as in my building I do not really have any other options. For a new build it is really a no brainer, avoid the issue, build a better house that would be more comfortable and nicer to live in.


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## Fred61 (Feb 2, 2011)

WEDONTNEEDNOOILLETTHEMOTHERBURN said:
			
		

> well i honestly dont know much about building a house. what is the price comparison when you look at either building a normally constructed house with a wood boiler vs. a very well insulated house with a cheaper heating system?



If I were building new right now I would build "superinsulated" and then choose the heating method that suits the design, even if I were burning wood. I have an EKO 25 in my basement that runs fewer hours each year because of the ongoing improvements in the insulation in my home. I admit that the improvements are a hobby for me because I enjoy doing the work and seeing the positive results. I don't know your age but if you're going to burn wood, something to think about is how are you going to handle 4 or 5 cords a year when you are in your seventies. I'll be 69 in April and I can tell you that 3 cords are as much I care to handle a year. 

The other thing is comfort. People that don't live in a well insulated home don't understand that the comfort temperatures are very uniform in a house like mine. I don't have any friends, acquaintances or relatives that could care less about energy conservation and comfort is on the back burner. When I visit their homes, I can't wait to get out of there and get home where it's comfortable. Someone in an above post worried about having a warm spot and cooler or cold temps whit a masonry heater. I can tell you that in a superinsulated house you will still be comfortable in the far reaches of a home. I fire my EKO once a day to replenish my storage. I usually start my fire at 4:00 pm and my burn usually lasts 'til 9:00 pm depending on whether the zones are calling for heat at the time. The master switch on the boiler is then shut off. I haven't had a fire overnight since the winter of 2008-2009.


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## in hot water (Feb 2, 2011)

100% solar fraction homes and buildings have been constructed in Europe.  This Swiss company manufacturers tanks for thermal storage and features a 100% solar thermal project in Switzerland.  Click on the English site then scroll down to the 100% solar apartment building to get an idea of tank size for 100% solar fraction.


http://www.jenni.ch/


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## Grover59 (Feb 2, 2011)

Tom in Maine said:
			
		

> I think that if you are talking about a relatively low heat load like 10k btus, a gasifier still makes very good sense. With proper sized storage,
> you can fire the unit every other day.
> My heat load is 6,000 btus/hr at design temp of -10F. This week I have fired our unit every other day or every two days, depending on how cold it was.
> This is for heat and hot water for two people
> ...



I agree, insulate the place as much as possible, I have a 1000 sq ft ranch built in the 70's and it has a higher heat load then I would like, I have 750 gals of open storage, and I use dip tubes with flat plate hx, and no in tank hx. Lately I will start a fire in my boiler once a day, the storage will take care of both the house heat and hot water for two people. We both work days so I have a mickey mouse control system that shuts down all heat except for the floor heat that I keep at 70 degrees. I have motion detectors that if they don't see motion in 30 minutes they shut down all thermostats except for the floor. 
       Now I know this may sound stupid but the regular kick down thermostats won't work cause we never know when we will be home or not. My wife may have the day off, but not home all day no need to heat the house if no one is there. This system works very well and I just found that there is company called BayWeb that makes a thermostat that uses occupancy sensors to do the same thing, guess what they use the same stuff I do, x10 stuff, very inexpensive and is very reliable. 
        I was just pondering at what would be the best next move, and I bet Tom would agree, I should try and tighten up the place. I have a friend that has one of those expensive thermo cameras designed for heat loss in a building and I will tell you it is amazing how much heat is just leaving the place, and with a little time and money and work it could make a huge difference in my heat load if I just tightened it up. 

Steve


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## Fred61 (Feb 3, 2011)

I too have a 1000+ sq ft early 70s ranch. The improvements that contributed to my efficiency were new windows with low E glass. Self install in order to have control of the insulation quality. Cellulose fiber insulation in attic (15 inches with plans for 8 more). Removal of drywall and application of 1.5 inch polyiso sheets screwed to studs then sealed at joints with plastic tape and re-sheetrocked. (20 more feet to be done). Install radiant under floor and super insulate sills with foam.


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## ihookem (Feb 3, 2011)

This stuff is over my head. I can tell you according to my builditsolar.com heat loss calc. my house has a 24400 btu heat loss @ 10 degrees. I have a 2208 sq.ft house. with 9' ceilings. That is 11 btu per sq.ft. What else can I do? Drapes? put more foam against inside basement walls? I don't have a storm on the front door. Honestly to the poster Frozen Canuck, how on earth can a house be built to use half the btu's I use now? I'm in a 1 yr old house. 4 1/2" closed cell in the walls (9' walls) r 60 in ceiling w/ energy heels that were foamed shut. Not many north side windows, Do you have any suggestions? I can't even see where 22,000 btu's would go except 360 sq. ft of windows including doors.


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## benjamin (Feb 3, 2011)

ihookem said:
			
		

> \?
> I can't even see where 22,000 btu's would go except 360 sq. ft of windows including doors.



Bingo!  it's pretty easy to do the heat loss calc manually so you see theoretically where the heat is going, in my case it was something like 70 btu/degree/hour for ceiling, 110 for walls and 200+ for windows, but I'm not giving up the windows and I don't think I'm ever gonna cover them every night either.


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## Frozen Canuck (Feb 3, 2011)

ihookem said:
			
		

> This stuff is over my head. I can tell you according to my builditsolar.com heat loss calc. my house has a 24400 btu heat loss @ 10 degrees. I have a 2208 sq.ft house. with 9' ceilings. That is 11 btu per sq.ft. What else can I do? Drapes? put more foam against inside basement walls? I don't have a storm on the front door. Honestly to the poster Frozen Canuck, how on earth can a house be built to use half the btu's I use now? I'm in a 1 yr old house. 4 1/2" closed cell in the walls (9' walls) r 60 in ceiling w/ energy heels that were foamed shut. Not many north side windows, Do you have any suggestions? I can't even see where 22,000 btu's would go except 360 sq. ft of windows including doors.






OK I'll give it a shot. Bear with me if I ramble, I will try to get there in a very short form (otherwise this will be a book) as well as address your questions. Sorry I have to give the broad strokes on such a detailed concept.

First of all the concept of net zero housing is not that the home consumes no energy, it is that the home is supposed to produce as much energy as it consumes. So given that premise a wide variety of well designed homes can indeed be net zero homes, the variety varies with region, climate as well as site specific factors. Virtually all newer ones do produce as much or more energy than they use & sell their surplus to the grid.How do they achieve this? 

Frame:  All of them & I do mean each & every single one, are what some members refer to as super insulated (very important whether you are heating or cooling the house). Most of the newer ones are all SIP construction (simply put it is a better system), concrete ribbon footing, then SIP's to the roof line, so you start with an R44 basement (6"PU SIP) & that R value continues in most cases through out the exterior of the home (no weak spots allowed) roof & floor trusses are set back from the edge of the exterior wall to allow for continuous insulation basement floor to roof top. You have a home (when done right) that has next to zero air infiltration, each panel is sealed with adhesive & foam at all contact points, for most of the panels this means 4 of the 6 faces. IMO this as or more important than extreme R values, if cold air cant get in you never have to replace it with warm air (we just lack an accurate test method presently, to prove what alot of us old crows believe). Exterior doors seldom allow air to directly enter the building, there is either a vestibule or porch so the air has a chance to warm (or at least slow down) before entering the home. That in a very small nutshell gives a general summary of the homes structure or at least the intent of it. Wasteful things simply do not exist in these homes. Essentially double minimum code R value (thats R20 walls here) & virtually air tight. Like I said IMO the air tight portion is the one that really makes it work.

Mechanical Systems: Extremely important, you can lose more here (when it's done wrong) than you can gain with a good frame. Very heavy on the Engineering (usually one at least on site) which for a home is out of the ordinary, very helpful though as they usually begin the discussion on best methods to deal with gains/losses within the home. Always a high eff heating system be it forced air/hydronics, I prefer the hydronics but I am getting older & like warm feet. Usually a wood burner of some sort in the basement with high mass stone or other to soak up the heat, that is also the backup heat source during outages. This mass will always be oriented to soak up solar gain as well, so never on the north or east walls usually central in the home (makes a better radiator centrally located). The mech contractor spends many hours running the numbers to ensure nothing is wasted, as much latent heat as possible is recovered, grey water heat recovery system (in the newer homes), preheated make up air (using latent heat) not grid or fossil, no air enters the living areas until it is warm. HRV (heat recovery ventilation) no air leaves the home until the heat is scrubbed out, can also be used to warm make up air. These guys get serious about all the btu's not just a general overview or broad strokes. That being said they even take into account the effect people will have when they enter the structure, you can design a perfectly sealed structure but if you forget that bags of warm moist water (humans) will live there...well you now have a mold factory. Really fast way to ruin a house so it is accounted for in the building mechanical systems.

Electrical: Yes important here too. High eff lighting for sure. No pot lights (too much heat lost to the attic) where you dont want it. An absolute minimum of electrical on exterior walls (you dont have to repair what you dont damage) Retain the R value & envelope integrity.

Windows: These are the weak points, as to the best of my knowledge the best windows are R11 at this time so, 25% of nominal ext wall R value. House is built as much as site allows to gain that free solar as well as take advantage of existing wind breaks including other homes (yes your neighbor is your friend when his home blocks 60% of your wind load). So yes majority of windows are south & west facing. What the windows are not is huge, you will not see a 13'x6.5' picture window in these homes. No cathedral ceilings either so no raker windows to lose heat through. Typical windows are triple pane vinyl frame with either traped air chambers in the frame or foam in the chambers.

Ext Doors: Typically minimum R20 foam core, yes they are thicker & heavier & cost more than a standard R8 metal door. I prefer them with a fiberglass skin as it won't conduct like metal & can be made to look like real wood without the maintenance issues of wood.

Roof System is typically aligned (pitch of roof) based on latitude & site conditiions to allow for max solar gain. Up there is where you will find the PV panels as well as summer dhw panels. I prefer the two pronged approach to solar as the owner gets 4 months free dhw in my area as well as sells power to the grid for most of the year, I am in favor of net metering not batteries. Gives the owner a secure reliable supply without the cost, complexity, maintenance of a battery pack as well as giving them another income stream.


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## Frozen Canuck (Feb 3, 2011)

ihookem said:
			
		

> This stuff is over my head. I can tell you according to my builditsolar.com heat loss calc. my house has a 24400 btu heat loss @ 10 degrees. I have a 2208 sq.ft house. with 9' ceilings. That is 11 btu per sq.ft. What else can I do? Drapes? put more foam against inside basement walls? I don't have a storm on the front door. Honestly to the poster Frozen Canuck, how on earth can a house be built to use half the btu's I use now? I'm in a 1 yr old house. 4 1/2" closed cell in the walls (9' walls) r 60 in ceiling w/ energy heels that were foamed shut. Not many north side windows, Do you have any suggestions? I can't even see where 22,000 btu's would go except 360 sq. ft of windows including doors.




Sorry; had to continue in another post, Admin & Mod's are going to put me on the naughty list for this one. OK where did I leave off?

Interior surfaces get attention too. Walls need to reflect light so color & sheen matter. Dark tile etc is favored where sunlight can fall on it (free solar again).

Virtually all homes are open concept. Allows for free flow of air without mechanical aids. No cold spots as air flow happens effortlessly (just add people & have them move around).

I think I will wrap there & address your questions before I fill another post. As a general note it isnt so much that these homes have cutting edge tech, as it is that there is absolute attention to detail & a high degree of professionalism & pride in the crafting of these homes (as all homes should be). Rather than the cookie cutter mass production housing we have gotten used to seeing. You know the stuff that needs a major reno when it 5 or 10 years old.

Now your questions; "This stuff is over my head" I dont agree based on your description of your home, 11 btu per sq.ft is in the range of a net zero home as far as usage goes, & I bet you did it without the benefit of an engineering team involved in the design & present during the construction. Am I right?

"What else can I do?" I dont know that you can without sacrificing some of the things you may really enjoy about your home & with you at 11 btu/sq/ft I really dont think you would recover the investment. The waste water heat recovery, as well HRV are all designed into these homes when they are on paper, as a retrofit I dont think they would pay for themselves as they are extensive whole house systems.

"Drapes?" Yes that would help with heatloss when you are out of the house & at night. You have to understand that most people who want a net zero home are like some of the boiler tweekers here, they just dont stop looking for those btu's not ever.

"Put more foam against inside basement walls?" Depends on your basement construction. If you have uninsulated concrete walls that can radiate the cold directly in then yes. If you have ICF's if they are R20 or better then you have most of it covered remember the dirt insulates as well. If you have SIP's then no.

"I dont have a storm door on the front door" Adding a good quality one in the spring would be helpful you will save energy when the wind blows or rain & snow fall.

"How on earth can a house be built to use half the btu's I use now?" Honestly if you had asked me 30 years ago I would have looked at you & laughed at the thought of a 5 btu/sq/ft house, heck even 10. I probably would have told you that you were crazy, never happen I would have said. Answer to your question is the march of time & the advancement of technology. Within my lifetime I hope we will all see a home that can be heated by simply adding people to it, so efficient that you will need to exhaust excess heat once the owners move in. If I hear about it say 15-20 years from now I promise not to laugh. When some young engineer figures out the window heatloss issue that will be a huge step down that road.

"Do you have any suggestions?" "I cant even see where 22000 btu's would go except for 360 sq ft of windows including doors" Honestly I think you did a fantastic job of your home, you got to 11 btu/sq/ft. If you want a clear picture of how you really did. Run all your numbers with the following changes, all ceilings are 8' not 9'. Net zero homes seldom if ever have 9' ceilings (in this cliimate at least). All windows have an R value of R5.8, last set of triple pane I priced came in at that & they are widely available, one has to watch out for factory hype on window performance. Change your doors to an R20 like we install in the net zero homes, yours maybe an R8 maybe less. I think once you make those alterations to your calculations, so you are apples to apples so to speak, you will be even more pleased than you already should be. Seriously I ran those numbers & I wont spoil it for you. I am going to assume that you dont have 30+ years in the trades like an old grunt like me, or a building science engineering degree. So job very well done congrats. Ask the Mrs. to bring you the beverage of your choice you earned it. BTW its hot toddy weather.


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## Hansson (Feb 3, 2011)

Insulate like hel and buy a heatpump.
http://www.eviheat.se/upl/files/14983.pdf

Sell the wood


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## Ldl0431usmc (Feb 3, 2011)

I'm  a big fan of well insulated unpressurized storage.  Either a concrete cistern or fabricated tank.  There is a lot of flexability with a tank like this; you could drop a heat exchange coil in for your domestic hot water and even add a solar coil for summertime DHW if you're too lazy to make the one or two fires a week it would take to keep the domestic water warm enough to keep the Women off your back.

If it was my house and money was no object, that's what I would do.


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## Como (Feb 3, 2011)

Hansson said:
			
		

> Insulate like hel and buy a heatpump.
> http://www.eviheat.se/upl/files/14983.pdf
> 
> Sell the wood



That would be the way to go, a very neat combination.


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## ihookem (Feb 3, 2011)

Thanks frozen Canuck,  I have 29 years in the trades. You are still ahead of me. I will do a little more to the basement by putting foam against the inside walls. I have 12" block walls with 2" pinks foam on the outside. I also have all brick on the outside. I started putting 1 1/2" foam on the inside. It raised my basement temp 2 degrees but am only half done. Another 300 bucks will finish it off. I don't care if I get my money back, I just want to see a warmer basement. It's a personal experiment of mine but very expensive. A storm door is 225 bucks. I'm also suspicious that my gas fireplace pulls air out on windy days like today. My humidity went from 40% this morning to 35% tonight.??? Kid insisted he shut the door tight this morning. Any air leak lowers my humidity. Thanks for everything Frozen Canuck. If everyone was like you the United States would have Opec by a noose if they even bothered giving them the time of day. I can only wish. I can't even get customers I know to add insulation in a 100 year old attic with 3" of fiberglass that's been there for years. . I quoted 1400 bucks for a 2000 sq. ft. attic to add 16" of cellulose insulation I was told they won't get their money back for 4 years. Come to think of it that is an investment that pays back 25% after 4 years. ( Wish my stocks would do that) House must have lost 40k in heat over the 113 years. Do you like fiberglass or cellulose insul in an attic?  Later, ihookem.


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## Frozen Canuck (Feb 4, 2011)

You are quite welcome. Dont think I am ahead at all, what you have accomplished I am going to guess basically on your own is outstanding. If you dont feel so why not post asking other members for their btu per sq ft. My guess is it will be a very long time before you hear about a close to yours usage #.

I agree, if we in North America paid attention to heatloss in our buildings, well then bye bye OPEC. We would not be sending our young men & women overseas to fight against what "our own money" has bought others. 

AFA the customer & insulation go, I have been for many years showing people in black & white (chart, graph or spreadsheet) their true break even point on the insulation as well as the amount of money they will save ie. put right in the bank for the rest of the years they have left on this earth. The second figure has far more impact than the first in the majority of cases & usually seals the deal too BTW. If you think it may help I encourage you to give it a shot. Money talks esp. the money one saves as given tax rates it is worth twice as much as the money one earns.


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## Frozen Canuck (Feb 4, 2011)

Forgot to answer the last question ihookem: First of all I always try to get max airflow in any attic, the more air changes per hour the less humidity issue/rule, makes it an easy choice for me. So you will see my roof systems with full vented soffits, not just partial as well as ridge vent for the full length of the ridges. I always focus on max cold air in at the low points (soffits). Max warm/moist air out at the high points (ridges). Given that I am always shooting for max air flow; in a conventional roof system (non SIP) I always install blown in cellulose. Minimum code here is R40 attic insulation, seldom if ever (esp since the energy price increase) do that little usually between R60 R100. I have not done a fiberglass attic in over 20 years nor would I recommend it in a conventional roof. Dont get me wrong in some cases where choices are limited due to design & other factors, fiberglass may be the only choice that makes $$ sense. However when choices are not limited due to other factors...well fiberglass isnt even on the list as it allows for far to much air infiltration in an attic space where I am trying to achieve max air flow.  An insulation with a high infiltration rate in that environment kind of defeats the purpose of insulating in the first place.


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