# How much winch to move trees?



## Soundchasm (Jan 16, 2014)

Howdy,

I've got a stream that borders my property, and over the last decade runoff from development has overloaded the creek during thaws and heavy rain.  That's knocked down some big trees on the opposite bank, and their rootballs have caused the creek to take a hard turn directly into my bank.

Sugarcreek Township (where I live) "stabilized" a sewer fixture they run in the creekbed, more or less, and the gabions they installed really seemed to compound problems by catching debris.

I'm in touch with local officials and am pleased with their concern and responsiveness, and I'm in touch with a local "River Keepers" style organization, but they have bigger fish to fry than one bend in a tributary.

I'm getting strategies from folks and have some idea collection/fermentation to perform, but everyone seems to think if only the fallen trees were moved from perpendicular to parallel to my bank it would go a long way to mitigate my bank loss.

I'm sure the bottom line is that this will be my own expense and labor, though it's too early to say.  One SWCD (Soil Water Conservation District) rep implied no one was going to mind me getting in there with a chain saw, but there's got to be a way to move those things if I can even cut them.  Heavy machinery is out of the question because of access and digging the the creekbed requires a permit.

Here's a photo album of the current condition.  I've left the photos full-res so local orgs here can use them.
http://soundchasm.com/erosion/lsc-jan14/

This is a high-water I managed to catch.  Normally you can walk across with one wet foot.  This has to be 5', and if you went in, you'd be hamburger in no time.
http://soundchasm.com/erosion/lsc/

Any thoughts appreciated.
Thanks,
Greg


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## ironpony (Jan 16, 2014)

the attaching point for the winch might be the hard part. good luck with it, soon as you start someone will be screaming or want in on the wood.
you know how that goes.


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## Ehouse (Jan 16, 2014)

The wood work doesn't look all that hard.  You'll bust yer arse with a winch.  Just cut it into manageable pieces.  The gabions are a crappy cheap solution that never last even when the right sized stone is used (larger than the grate).  They won't hold against backfill or water pressure for any length of time.  You won't get the water works dept. to address this now, but make sure they know they need an engineered solution when they are replaced.  It looks like the larger problem is the increased frequency of local heavy rainfall that is increasingly common in many places.  Talk to your officials about a flood control project.


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## gzecc (Jan 16, 2014)

I was expecting large trees. Just cut them up, clean it up. If you can't, hire a couple of tree guys to spend a day.


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## bassJAM (Jan 16, 2014)

Another vote for getting in there with a saw.  Cut them into pieces just small enough that you can place them parallel or carry them out of the creek if you really want.


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## Soundchasm (Jan 16, 2014)

Thank you guys.  It's hard to wait on authorities when I want to get in there and start swinging.  I agree that the trees are likely <30", but I worry it'll be tough to find a solid step down there, and muscling stuff over broken ground is always harder.

It's the rootballs that have changed the path of the creek.  If I get the lumber moved, how do you disassemble a rootball?  The dirt would dull a saw pretty quickly, wouldn't it?  Is a winch a solution to move those things?


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## bassJAM (Jan 16, 2014)

Not sure about the root balls, I think I'd just leave them unless you want to spend a day down there building a fire around each one and trying to burn it away.  A winch might do it too, but I wouldn't go out and buy one.

I grew up next to a smaller stream (East Fork River if you are familiar with it, I see you are close in Dayton) and every year with the floods we'd get large trees.  Sometimes they'd change the course of the river, and create deep spots or slow spots or areas we couldn't get a kayak through, but we always just left them alone.  Eventually within the next couple years it'd flood enough that they'd be taken downstream and the problem went away naturally.  Really I always thought it was neat how much the river has changed within the past 20 years.


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## Soundchasm (Jan 16, 2014)

bassJAM said:


> Not sure about the root balls, I think I'd just leave them unless you want to spend a day down there building a fire around each one and trying to burn it away.  A winch might do it too, but I wouldn't go out and buy one.
> 
> I grew up next to a smaller stream (East Fork River if you are familiar with it, I see you are close in Dayton) and every year with the floods we'd get large trees.  Sometimes they'd change the course of the river, and create deep spots or slow spots or areas we couldn't get a kayak through, but we always just left them alone.  Eventually within the next couple years it'd flood enough that they'd be taken downstream and the problem went away naturally.  Really I always thought it was neat how much the river has changed within the past 20 years.



I know the real solution is to let the creek choose it's course.  But I really dig these three big sycamores on my side, and now there's a small cavern underneath one of them.  Going back through photos, I've lost up to 10' in the last 3 years.  It's only 15 more feet to my property line.  I always went down to keep an eye on it, but the stupid honeysuckle made it impossible to see the whole picture.  After I cleared a bunch of that out, then I realized how much bank I lost.

I think the ying/yang of it is to clear it after every flood, or never touch it.


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## bassJAM (Jan 16, 2014)

10' in three years is huge!  In the 20 years my parents have owned that property they might have lost 2' at the most, but gained the same amount other years.  There's a bunch of sycamores that are completely standing on roots, there's no soil touching the trunk.  They've been like that for years and look pretty cool, but we have had 1 fall from the other bank to our side one year.  It was a mess since it was easily 3' in diameter through most of the trunk, and reached across the entire length of the creek.  It raised the water level a few inches, and caught all the crap that was brought downstream and kept it in this large pool.  The flip side was smallmouth and carp loved it and were a breeze to catch!  But the next spring a huge rainfall took it away.  It's amazing how strong a flood is, I've kayaked 5 miles past that area and never saw that tree again.


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## Soundchasm (Jan 16, 2014)

I was in awe of that rushing water.  Unlimited horsepower, or so it seemed.  Out of all the stuff I see getting trapped on those gabions, I'm just as amazed when it vanishes never to be seen again.  Seriously, where did it go??

A local expert stopped out this afternoon and assured me that over time it'll turn back.  He suggested letting nature takes it's course, and overall I agree, but I opted to not point out that my problem is man-made!  If I were a betting man I'd predict this will get worse over time with more water input into the system.  And if I take his logic to the extreme, I never have to clear snow off my driveway again because it's going to melt.

I'll get in there and try not to get hurt, and see if the creek takes any of my suggestions come springtime.  It probably won't, but I'll have some pride in that I tried.  Thanks.


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## Soundchasm (Jan 16, 2014)

Oh, speaking of crazy sycamores, this one's about ten minutes from my house.  I fully expect elves baking cookies.  I've heard it's the oldest in the county.


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## peakbagger (Jan 17, 2014)

I suspect a 2 ton come along would work fine and some long lengths of cable to run it back to a solid point. The really slick (more expensive device is a griphoist, it takes longer to set up but once it is in place, it makes moving things really easy.


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## mustash29 (Jan 17, 2014)

As far as winches are concerned:

From a vehicle recovery (from mud, snow, off roading, etc) standpoint, the industry standard recomendation is to get a winch that has 1.5 times the pulling capacity of the weight of the vehicle.  This is true for nearly any truck, SUV, off road vehicle, UTV, ATV, etc.

I have a Warn M-8000 on my S-10 ZR2, mounted to a removeable cradle made from 24" x 8" C channel that plugs into the front receiver.  I have used it to pull things that required me to strap the rear hitch to another anchor point.  The S-10 weighs about 5000 lb, camper cap, heavy duty 2x3 box tube rocker protection, 1/4" steel skid plates, etc.

Warn is American made, very good quality, pricey, but about the best winch you can buy.

I have a Smittybilt 8000 on my Jeep Unlimited.  They can be had for about 300 bucks, are a decent winch that works, pulls fast & pretty strong.

IMO, a 300 winch + a bit more for some chain, straps, mount, etc. would be well worth the price if you could yank all that wood out of the creek / river.  As long as you can cut it into manageable sections it would pull out just fine.  You can double your pulling power by adding a snatch block, but the speed will be cut in half.

Not sure if you would be able to remove the stumps.  No problem if they are loose, but they will laugh at pretty much any winch if they are still somewhat attached to the banks.

A standard truck battery & electrical system will support intermittant winching.  For long hard pulls you will rapidly drain (kill) a typical battery and really tax a stock alternator.


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## Soundchasm (Jan 18, 2014)

peakbagger said:


> I suspect a 2 ton come along would work fine and some long lengths of cable to run it back to a solid point. The really slick (more expensive device is a griphoist, it takes longer to set up but once it is in place, it makes moving things really easy.



I watched some youtube videos with the griphoist, but didn't know that's what it's called.  That one looked like it'd take steel cable and required some manpower, which of course is fine.  I'll search the videos for use of a comealong, and see how the internet proposes they be used.  I did see the guys using straps when anchoring to a tree, and that's pretty brilliant.  I'll try calling some rental places early next week and see who has what, if anything.


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## Soundchasm (Jan 18, 2014)

mustash29 said:


> As far as winches are concerned:
> 
> From a vehicle recovery (from mud, snow, off roading, etc) standpoint, the industry standard recomendation is to get a winch that has 1.5 times the pulling capacity of the weight of the vehicle.  This is true for nearly any truck, SUV, off road vehicle, UTV, ATV, etc.
> 
> ...



Your truck sounds like a beast!  That Warn looks really sweet.  So is the Smitty.  I hadn't thought to see if anyone I know has one installed on their vehicle.  Your cautions line-up spot on with what I'm reading.

I'm going to get some measurements of how far I'd like to move a few of these.  At an inch or two per stroke, that'd be quite a workout.  But sometimes you only need to get something broken loose.  But an electric motor would be so much better.


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## bassJAM (Jan 18, 2014)

If you want to go the winch route, Harbor Freight sells a decent model that should get you by.  My brother bought one a few years ago (I think it's 9000lbs) and it's still working fine, we normally use it to put a little tension on a tree when we're trying to get it to fall away from a house or other structure it's leaning towards.


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## peakbagger (Jan 18, 2014)

Come along are great but they are slow. With some planning very large items can be moved as long as you rig it so that the front of the log doesn't get stuck in the ground. I have a couple of them and usually put them in series so that it cut my set up time in roughly half. Using a nylon strap around the anchor tree works well.


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## greg13 (Jan 18, 2014)

using a winch is possible, but you are looking at a rigging nightmare with snatch blocks to get the right pull. there are cases where you will need to roll the log before you can pull it.

If you want to put a stick in a hornet's nest contact a tv station and show them the pictures. Local officials really LOVE that kind of attention. The quickest and SAFEST way to get it cleaned up is with heavy equipment, you would be surprised how fast permits can get issued with the right people making the phone calls.

And since the problem happened as a result of a development (improper planning on the officials part) I would contact a lawyer, or threaten to and see what results you get.


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## Soundchasm (Jul 4, 2014)

greg13 said:


> using a winch is possible, but you are looking at a rigging nightmare with snatch blocks to get the right pull. there are cases where you will need to roll the log before you can pull it.
> 
> If you want to put a stick in a hornet's nest contact a tv station and show them the pictures. Local officials really LOVE that kind of attention. The quickest and SAFEST way to get it cleaned up is with heavy equipment, you would be surprised how fast permits can get issued with the right people making the phone calls.
> 
> And since the problem happened as a result of a development (improper planning on the officials part) I would contact a lawyer, or threaten to and see what results you get.



I've been to a township zoning meeting, several of the River Cleaner meetings, and my conclusion is that if you wanted to get anything done, there's no other choice than a lawsuit.  Out township is under annexing attack (goal of development) from a neighboring city, and the township is powerless to stop it.  And every council person I spoke to knows about killing/scouring working stream beds and erosion, and their ultimate answer is that nothing is done that isn't legal.  "Moral" is merely a passing thought quickly forgotten.

Anyway, I got in there and got everything cut up except for one root ball, and after a big rain it vanished!!  Went down with my shovel and rubber boots and dug a channel on the far side of the gabion.  Counter-intuitively, digging that creek bed is much easier with water flowing because you can use the current to push the rocks onto the shovel.  And small results come pretty quickly because each shovel full is a triple win.  It's a cubic amount that makes the channel deeper and faster, and you throw it where you don't want the water to go.

I'll not claim that my feet never got stuck and I never fell in, but it really was possible to make some progress in spite of no assistance from local officials I might nickname Duck, Bob, and Weave.


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