# Questions about low priced heating stoves



## oldgrezmonke (Feb 27, 2019)

We're been house hunting and we want to take advantage of natural gas for heat that doesn't need electricity . The property that is presently the most likely already has an older vented type heating stove but I'd rather have ventless . I'm considering some models from Pleasant Hearth & ProCom in the 20-30,000 BTU range priced +/- $400 . Any red flags on those companies' offerings in that price range ? Thanks in advance .


----------



## wooduser (Mar 1, 2019)

In my view and experience unvented gas heaters have an excessively thin margin of safety.  I packed off a number of people with carbon monoxide poisoning to hospitals caused by such appliances.

One person in an apartment was being made sick because a very small pilot light on a gas range was dirty,  but was creating carbon monoxide that permeated the apartment.

There are lots of other reasons too,  such as all the water vapor created when burning gas that winds up in your home.

Best advice  ----don't do it.

Post the make and model of the heater that is currently there and let me see what you might be buying into.  That can be found on the rating plate of the fireplace,  unless this is a gas log set in a conventional wood fireplace.


----------



## oldgrezmonke (Mar 1, 2019)

wooduser - You sound like a first responder ; Thank you for your service . 
I don't have that information from the heater . That would have to wait until we take another look at the place .There is no fireplace ; it is a freestanding unit [see picture copied from listing] used as a supplement to the electric heat in the HVAC system . The home in question is a sectional mobile home built in 1976 so there is undoubtedly sufficient air leakage to prevent significant CO or water vapor buildup . 



 .


----------



## wooduser (Mar 1, 2019)

oldgrezmonke said:


> The home in question is a sectional mobile home built in 1976 so there is undoubtedly sufficient air leakage to prevent significant CO or water vapor buildup .



I wouldn't count on that at all,  and you can't take any chance with carbon monoxide.

It has almost the same specific gravity as air,  and tends to hang around for hours.

Vented heaters of the kind you illustrate ar readily available,  and vastly to be preferred over unvented equipment.  You can get gas fired stoves that imitate wood stoves,  with attractive flame patterns that you might want to consider.

You can buy such equipment used pretty often on Craigslist quite cheaply,  and that would be a far better and safer option than buying unvented equipment new,  in my view.

But I strongly recommend against unvented equipment.  The safety margin there is 'way too low,  in my experience,  especially for automatcic equipment that can tend to be set and then ignored overnight.


----------



## Millbilly (Mar 1, 2019)

Wood users advice is solid.  I would not put an unvented stove in my house either.  If people die on boats and in cars from CO then they certainly can in a leaky home.  I'd go look at jotuls if I were you. Best gas stove on the market.


----------



## oldgrezmonke (Mar 2, 2019)

Millbilly said:


> Wood users advice is solid. I'd go look at jotuls if I were you. Best gas stove on the market.


  There's not much cold weather left this season in the Jackson TN area . So we can make-do with the one presently there until Fall . I can wait & see what shows up used on FB Marketplace or Craigslist though I doubt a Jotul would show up near here . At the moment I only see inserts , units like the one there now or with a thermostat that needs 110v . There's only one dealer of fireplace type items nearby & his prices reflect the lack of competition . We're taking the "last look before we decide yea/nay" today so I'll see if I can get the model info of the present one .


----------



## wooduser (Mar 2, 2019)

If you find something that looks plausible you are welcome to post the make and model here for an opinion of the equipment if you wish.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Mar 2, 2019)

Many years ago I installed nat gas wall mounted unvented heater in my walkout basement. Kept shutting off after a few minutes. Come to find out the oxygen sensor was shutting the thing off due to it consuming all the oxygen in the room. The only fix was to crack a window or door open far enough to supply it with fresh air. By the time i could get it to keep running my basement was freezing from the open window. I promptly uninstalled it never to mess with an UNvented heater ever again.


----------



## oldgrezmonke (Mar 2, 2019)

wooduser said:


> Post the make and model of the heater that is currently there and let me see what you might be buying into.  That can be found on the rating plate


 The present heater : Manufactured by Louisville Tin and Stove - Cozy Room Gas Heater , Model # CR1 35-R , Serial # 8  461329 , Manufacture date 1982 , 50,000 BTU . There is some surface rust in various places . I haven't found a manual online .


----------



## oldgrezmonke (Mar 2, 2019)

wooduser said:


> If you find something that looks plausible you are welcome to post the make and model here for an opinion of the equipment if you wish.


 I saw a neat looking one on Marketplace called an "Avalon 700" which looks like a wood stove , is vented , but doesn't have a non electric thermostat just adjustable flame height . Any thoughts on that one ?


----------



## wooduser (Mar 2, 2019)

https://www.avalonfirestyles.com/travisdocs/93508077.pdf


The manual on this fireplace is at the above link.

This is a millivolt powered gas fireplace,  so it doesn't need 120 volt power to operate.  And you can operate this off a millivolt wall thermostat to turn the main burner on and off to maintain a temperature if you wish.  In addition,  you can adjust the size of th main burner input  to vary the amount of heat that's provided.

In short,  it was state of the art gas fireplace when it was built in the early 1990s,  and very likely can continue to operate safely and reliably for years to come.

If you decide to buy it, it would be nice to be able to observe it operating to verify that it's working properly.  If it's already been taken out,  you should get a good price on it because you really can't know if it's in good operating condition.  Checking the gas logs to see if they are in good condition or beat up and falling apart would give you an idea of how hard the use has been.  

You can check with them manufacturer to see if new logs are available if they are needed.

How would you be installing this?    The stove requires a "B" vent double wall gas vent pipe,  not too different from that of a gas water heater,  just a little larger.

It probably needs maintenance work like cleaning the pilot orifice,  cleansing the main burner and rebuilding the logs and embers.

No way to know if it's in operating condition unless you can see it operating.

If you can get the B vent from the old installation,  you might save yourself money by getting that too.  

With those caveats,  I bet I could make this stove run for years  doing mainly ordinary maintenance and the risk of an infrequent repair.

Again,  if the logs are in poor repair,  I'd check on whether you can get new ones from the manufacturer.  Logs and embers that are in good condition would show off the stove to it's best advantage.


----------



## oldgrezmonke (Mar 3, 2019)

wooduser said:


> This is a millivolt powered gas fireplace,  so it doesn't need 120 volt power to operate.  And you can operate this off a millivolt wall thermostat to turn the main burner on and off to maintain a temperature if you wish.  In addition,  you can adjust the size of the main burner input  to vary the amount of heat that's provided.
> * I see I misread the manual .*
> 
> In short,  it was state of the art gas fireplace when it was built in the early 1990s,  and very likely can continue to operate safely and reliably for years to come. If you decide to buy it, it would be nice to be able to observe it operating to verify that it's working properly.  If it's already been taken out,  you should get a good price on it because you really can't know if it's in good operating condition.
> ...


----------



## oldgrezmonke (Mar 4, 2019)

*Re: The Avalon 700 . *I have exchanged messages with the seller & been sent pictures . It was used for a while then removed [no reason given] & has been stored in their garage . The pictures are a bit grainy so I'm not sure if I'm seeing rust on the inside . More than the slightest amount of rust is a no-no , right ? We've arranged to look at it tomorrow .


----------



## wooduser (Mar 4, 2019)

oldgrezmonke said:


> *Re: The Avalon 700 . *I have exchanged messages with the seller & been sent pictures . It was used for a while then removed [no reason given] & has been stored in their garage . The pictures are a bit grainy so I'm not sure if I'm seeing rust on the inside . More than the slightest amount of rust is a no-no , right ? We've arranged to look at it tomorrow .



Actually,  I wouldn't be especially concerned about rust unless it were so bad that parts were physically consumed by rust.


Assuming that rust were on the interior combustion chamber where the flames are,  you'd have to plan to take the burners,  pilot,  logs and such out to remove the rust with a wire brush and reinstall the parts  ----perhaps paint the rusted surfaces with a high temperature paint.

But there really shouldn't be more than small amounts of surface rust.  The flames tend to burn away the paint and then rust could attack the bare steel if the stove was stored in a garage for a lengthy period of time perhaps.  But I'm really just guessing.

I actually posted the above comment before going back to read your remark thast the stove was stored in a garage!  To me,  that would suggest less usage and wear than if it had been used continuously,  especially if it had been stored for many years.

If you get a chance,  post the pictures.  They would help in evaluating the stove.


----------



## oldgrezmonke (Mar 4, 2019)

wooduser said:


> Actually,  I wouldn't be especially concerned about rust unless it were so bad that parts were physically consumed by rust.
> Assuming that rust were on the interior combustion chamber where the flames are,  you'd have to plan to take the burners,  pilot,  logs and such out to remove the rust with a wire brush and reinstall the parts  ----perhaps paint the rusted surfaces with a high temperature paint.
> But there really shouldn't be more than small amounts of surface rust.  The flames tend to burn away the paint and then rust could attack the bare steel if the stove was stored in a garage for a lengthy period of time perhaps.  But I'm really just guessing.
> I actually posted the above comment before going back to read your remark that the stove was stored in a garage!  To me,  that would suggest less usage and wear than if it had been used continuously,  especially if it had been stored for many years.
> If you get a chance,  post the pictures.  They would help in evaluating the stove.


*
Here are the pictures the seller messaged me - the exterior ones are pretty clear but the interior one a bit fuzzy . *The seller used the phrase - "in good condition looks new" . The logs & coals don't quite look like the manual but could just be not placed properly . I'll have a copy of the log placement page to make sure . If some are bad/missing : I presume I'd better check that they are available before buying .


----------



## wooduser (Mar 4, 2019)

oldgrezmonke said:


> *Here are the pictures the seller messaged me - the exterior ones are pretty clear but the interior one a bit fuzzy . *The seller used the phrase - "in good condition looks new" . The logs & coals don't quite look like the manual but could just be not placed properly . I'll have a copy of the log placement page to make sure . If some are bad/missing : I presume I'd better check that they are available before buying .
> 
> View attachment 241899
> View attachment 241900
> View attachment 241901





The fogging on the glass is caused by the combustion gasses against the glass.  You can try wiping that off with a wet cloth then letting it dry to see if it stays clear  ----if it stays fogged up it means the glass has been pitted  by regular,  long time use   ----not unexpected in an old stove.  If that's the case,  that should get you a cheaper price,  particularly if you point that out to the seller.

Just guessing,  but it looks like the seller cleaned up the stove as best they could,  which implies that the fogging of the glass can't be improved on.  You can ask the seller about that,  and if they claim they didn't clean the glass,  check it yourself as a check on the veracity of the seller.

You can check to see if the manufacturer still sells new glass for that stove if you wish  ---they probably want a couple of hundred dollars if they do.   You may also be able to find a GOOD glass shop that will be able to polish the pit out of the glass for you at a moderate price.  Alternatively,  a GOOD glass shop can install new glass for you at a moderate price  ---$50-100 probably.  Having clear glass would add a LOT to the attractiveness of the flames,  but nothing to the heating function of the stove.

The logs LOOK like they are intact,  but you should check that to be sure they aren't falling apart or deteriorated.  The embers look like they are deteriorated  ---they tend to turn to powder after years of use.  That's GOOD  ----it should help you negotiate a cheaper price and you can replace that material by purchasing new embers and such at a stove shop or on line for $5-10.

The fake brick surrounding pieces look liken they are intact.  You should check that when you take the logs out.  If they are broken or deteriorated,  you should get a cheaper price.

If the logs are broken and you can get replacements,  I'd do it before the manufacturer quits making them available,  which may well already have happened.  Broken logs should fetch you a cheaper price,  but even if you can't replace them it's not a deal breaker  for older,  used equipment.

Where is the rust you mentioned?  I could  not see rust in the pictures.

It doesn't look new to me.  It looks like what it is,  well used 25 year old equipment. However,  you can repaint and polish the brass and rebuild the fire and have it looking very nice if you want to spent a little time doing maintenance and repairs.

I take it you will not be able to see if the stove actually operates.  It's always possible there is some repair that needs to be made,  which could be expensive.  Or it might run fine.  That uncertainty should fetch you a cheaper price.

The net result of all this is that you should get this stove for a cheap to moderate price,  depending on the issues I've pointed out such as possible fogged glass or deteriorate logs.

I see no reason to warn you off  this stove,  other than the issues mentioned above which are not necessarily too serious.  Just off the cuff,  I'd say a price of $100-300 might be reasonable depending on how badly the seller wants to get rid of the stove.

Also,  if you can get the vent pipe and metal chimney that may once have been used,  you may be able to get that for little or no money and re use it.

Perhaps you will get some other people expressing opinions on this for you,  which would be valuable.


----------



## oldgrezmonke (Mar 4, 2019)

wooduser said:


> The fogging on the glass is caused by the combustion gasses against the glass.  You can try wiping that off with a wet cloth then letting it dry to see if it stays clear  ----if it stays fogged up it means the glass has been pitted  by regular,  long time use   ----not unexpected in an old stove.  If that's the case,  that should get you a cheaper price,  particularly if you point that out to the seller.
> *I will ask how long it was in use *& carry a wet rag in a bag to check .
> 
> Just guessing,  but it looks like the seller cleaned up the stove as best they could,  which implies that the fogging of the glass can't be improved on.  You can ask the seller about that,  and if they claim they didn't clean the glass,  check it yourself as a check on the veracity of the seller.
> ...


----------



## oldgrezmonke (Mar 5, 2019)

Well , I checked it out today & it looks a *LOT* better in person . This is an earlier version than the date shown on the online manual so , for instance , the "logs" looked different because of a design change . I was told it was in use by a relative for about 3 years then removed . Some time later it was given to the sellers by that relative who thought it could be used in the husband's shop . But since natural gas is not available where they live it's just been sitting inside their garage for about 6 years . Now {before I buy the heater} I just have to decide whether or not we want to buy the place into which to put it .


----------



## wooduser (Mar 5, 2019)

So how much did they want for it?


----------



## oldgrezmonke (Mar 5, 2019)

$300 was the asking price for the stove . I'm pretty sure I can talk them down some .


----------



## wooduser (Mar 5, 2019)

Sounds like an excellent deal,  especially considering the favorable appearance of the stove you reported.

Any chance there was some chimney material that went with that?  If so,  that would make it an even better deal.


----------



## oldgrezmonke (Mar 5, 2019)

wooduser said:


> Any chance there was some chimney material that went with that?  If so,  that would make it an even better deal.


 No , the venting was not available . The venting already in place is probably the right size with at least a passage already up through the roof


----------



## oldgrezmonke (Oct 25, 2019)

I forgot to get back to this . I bought the Avalon for $260 and it has been stored in my shed until brought to the "new" home mentioned above . A small glitch in the land description had to be worked out which took about a month . We have been slowly transitioning from one to the other since . Our last move was fairly long distance and rushed so since we own both outright {no mortgage , etc.} we're taking our time . The "new" one is a fixer-upper but the previous place was approaching falling-downer so we're better off . Plus we're lots closer {@20 miles} to hospitals and such .
  I finished installing the Avalon yesterday but have a problem . The pilot light is on and all the knobs seem to move properly [one seems sticky] but I can't get the burner to come on . Suggestions ? Could something be stuck in the control valve due to prolonged storage ? I've tried tapping on the valve with a wrench and turning the knobs repeatedly .  All the gas heaters I've dealt with before were old with only a simple valve to turn them up or down .


----------



## oldgrezmonke (Oct 25, 2019)

UPDATE - OOPS . After re-reading the manual - I had missed an instruction for an on/off switch . Flipped the switch , Voila , flames came up . I thought the switch was only for the blower .


----------

