# Problem with low heat output on a Breckwell Big E



## Regor (Feb 5, 2010)

I'm pretty disappointed with my new Big E and the local Farm and Home store I purchased it from has not been a lot of help.  I apologize in advance for the lengthy post, but I want to include as much information up front as possible.  The following is what I submitted to Breckwell including their replies.

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I purchased the Big E pellet stove Saturday to replace an old Ashley wood stove that was doing an adequate job of heating my shop.  I have been extremely disappointed with the heat output of the Big E stove and initially thought my expectations were too high.  After speaking with the dealer and several acquaintances that own pellet stoves, I now believe the stove has a problem.

The pellets are apparently feeding OK (80 pounds per day on setting 4) but the output temperature at the vent averages 105 degrees F (wife's hair dryer puts out more heat).  Ambient air temperature has averaged about 12 degrees over outside temperature (25 to 40 degrees since Saturday).  The flue gas temperature is over 200 degrees which doesn't seem to be the 80+% efficiency advertised.  The flame is not near as large as what is depicted on your web site, 5 to 6 inches over the burn pot on the average.  I have tried various damper settings to no avail.  The pellets are the same brand a friend is using in a smaller stove at a lower setting with about a 200 degree temperate output.

My 2400 sq. ft. building is air tight and insulated.  I realize this is a little larger than the stoves rating but I am not expecting 70 degree temperatures.  My old Ashley would easily maintain 30 degrees above outside temperature and much more if I fired it a little harder (the Ashley was not huge, it was the type found in many living rooms in the 70's and 80's).

The dealer is a Farm and Home store whose knowledge apparently does not go beyond convincing customers how great and economical pellet stoves are, so I'm looking forward to hearing from someone that can help me and prove the salesman correct.

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Breckwell's reply (abbreviated):

I am sorry to hear about your frustrations.  This type of compliant usually has a simple explanation.

The first thing I want to you to look at is the slide switch at the top of the control panel.  Assuming you are not using an external thermostat this switch should be in “Manual”.  If this switch is not in “Manual” then you will get low heat output.  

If this is not the case please read further.

You have provided some useful information, however, a few details seem to be missing.  You mention feed rates and heat output but you do not mention what heat level you are using.  I will provide you the feed rates for each setting so that you can time them independently to verify that the unit is feeding the correct amount of pellets for each setting.  

The next question I have is about your exhaust configuration.  The units efficiency will greatly depend on the installation.  The unit operates best with a simply “out and up” exhaust.  If that “up” portion is significantly long then this can create a very power draft and pull heat from the unit and put it out the exhaust.  How is your unit exhausted?  Mentioning horizontal and vertical feet is important.  I am looking for a description that includes the number of feet (or inches) between the stove and the first elbow (or T) and the amount of feet between each elbow and so forth.

Also, you mentioned that the area being heated by the unit is fairly well insulated and air tight.  This will probably make have a fresh air intake a must.  As the unit draws in fresh air for the combustion process it dumps that air outside via the exhaust.  In other words it is constantly removing air form the room it is in if it is draw inside air.  This creates a draw against the stove and can greatly affect the heat out and efficiency of the unit.  

Lastly, I would like to know about the appearance of the flame.  Does it lean over in any direction or does it stand straight up?  Is it more orange or more yellow in color?

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My response:

The switch is and has been in the manual position.

I have had the heat setting on 4 and the feed rate appears to correspond to the information provided.

The flue gas is exhausted directly out the back with an 18 inch horizontal run of 3" Simpson Duravent terminating with a rain hood.  No elbows.  The dealer said this would be fine as the stove has a forced draft configuration and does not rely on a natural draft that a vertical run would provide.

When I mentioned the building being airtight, I was mainly implying that I am not heating a drafty, old barn.  The building is fairly well sealed but I feel that I'm getting enough fresh air around the overhead door, windows, etc.  I could also crack a window an inch or so if you think it will help.  At this point I am reluctant to cut any more holes in my walls for additional piping because as it stands, I can not keep this stove and may have to go back to burning firewood (I have water lines to protect from freezing).

I would call the flame a light orange and it has a tendency to lean to the right.  I have not had any real soot issues, I have just had to wipe a little ash off of the window now and then.

***********

And Breckwell's latest reply:

I am going to send you some Flue Plates.  These plates go in the upper left and right hand corners I “shelves”.  The clips will be towards you to hold them there so they don’t fall behind the firewall. The one with the notch cut out of it goes in the left side.  (This should make more sense when you receive the plates)

It sounds like the draft through your unit is a little too fast (flame leaning to the right, hot exhaust).  These plates are designed to slow the air flow just a bit to help the heat transfer process. 

This should solve your problem.  I invite you to contact me again if needed to ensure the plates are install properly and so forth. 

************

This retrofit sounds like a design flaw and cause for replacement to me.  Has anyone run across this before?  

I am new to pellet stoves and new to this Forum, but from what I have read, there is a tremendous amount of knowledge here so I thought I would ask for some insight.  Thanks in advance.

Roger


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## gbreda (Feb 5, 2010)

Welcome to the forum.  Lots of good info hear from great folk.  A few strange brews keep it fun too.     

Sounds like you have a good dialogue going with tech support.  I dont have any experience with Breckwell Big-E (although I almost pulled the trigger last year on one).  There are others who do have (or had) this model, hopefully someone will chime in with their experiences. Possibly try a search for "Big E" and see what you find.

Keep us posted

oh yeah, some pics of the install are always appreciated here  

Geno


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 5, 2010)

Welcome Roger errr I mean Regor,

Do you have the manual and does the manual have a numbered exploded parts diagram and a parts list?   

If it does, does it show any flue plates?    

I don't know that unit, there are others on here that do and will likely chime in given time.  I just wanted to welcome you.  

But it is possible (given the down behind the firebox mention) that they were there originally but got dislodged during installation handling or shipping.


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## jtakeman (Feb 5, 2010)

I am an ex bigE owner and one of the issue's I had was lack of heat. Always seemed to push more heat out the vent than it did the combustion. If Breckwell did there homework and made some baffles to correct this issue? I would give it a try! I didn't think the stove was a dog, I just wasn't getting enough heat from it.

I would bet if they have repair parts for the current models, the fix will be in the next run of stoves.

Keep us posted.
jay


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## Regor (Feb 6, 2010)

Thanks guys, for the welcome and responses. 

Gbreda, I have searched some but have yet to see anything regarding this issue - I'll hit it a little harder tonight.

Smokey, the manual (and the PDF file on the website) just has general diagrams - no detailed drawings.  I suppose it is possible it came with flue plates that came loose and someone at the store did something with them - this is a Farm and Home store so some employees may not have known what they were.  That's a good thought Smokey.  It sounds like that's what Breckwell is sending me.  

I may be paranoid but when parts have to be added to a brand new stove in order for it to perform as designed, I get very nervous.  It's akin to paying for a new roof on your house but having to cover it with a blue tarp to make it really work.  Y'all (spent some time in Texas) think I'm being unreasonable with that thought?

The dealer did contact me this morning and offered to take the stove back and is trying to sell me a US Stove-King model 5500 for 1200.00 plus 10 bags of pellets.  Anyone have any opinions on this offer?  I gotta tell ya, at this point I'm not sure what to do.  I'm considering going back to burning wood, at least that is familiar territory.

Thanks all,
Roger


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 6, 2010)

Sorry can't help you with the 5500 decision know nothing about the stove, and I don't make recommendations on stoves.  

Mainly because people can't answer the first couple of basic questions well enough for me to be able to make certain what the right stove for them is.


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## imacman (Feb 6, 2010)

Roger, sorry to hear about all the problems with the Breckwell, but from what I've heard from a very reputable Breckwell dealer, the quality control on their stoves has gone down hill a LOT in the past few years.

That said, the US Stove at that price is worth a try, I think.  You're getting it for $1200 & 10 bags of pellets, and the stove is listed for $2550.00 at US Stove website.  Even US Stoves "sale price" of $2326.00 doesn't come close to the deal your getting.  (The stove the dealer quoted is a NEW stove, right?)

There are more & more US Stove owners on the forum in the past 6 months, so if it was me, I'd give it a shot.


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## buildingmaint (Feb 6, 2010)

My Big E has served me well for the past 5 seasons. I have had problems , a lot when I was a newbee, but that was from lack of experience with pellet stoves. Mine will heat my 900 sqft open design to unlivable on # 3 manual if I'd let it. I did this one February 20 degrees outside.


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## yknotcarpentry (Feb 6, 2010)

I have a  big E, do do you have an oak Set up or not?   I originally ahd the stove set up in my shop/ barn (very drafty) and I felt the heat output was poor. I moved it into my house and installed an OAK and there was a  world of differance....


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## Regor (Feb 6, 2010)

I just received an e-mail that Breckwell has shipped the flue plates so I have decided to wait until they arrive and see if it helps before returning the stove.  I have been seeing better reviews of the Big E than for the US Stove 5500 so I'll hang in there for awhile and try to work through the problems.

I do not have an OAK setup currently because I felt that I probably had enough air in leakage to compensate, but that will be the first thing I will do in the morning.  Hopefully I will get more than the 105 to 110 degree output I have now.  I'll let y'all now how that turns out.

If this doesn't help I think I will hook the old Ashley back up to get me through the expected cold snap until the plates arrive.

I'm sure lack of experience is factoring in but I consider myself fairly mechanically inclined, I work at a coal fired power plant and part of my duties are troubleshooting systems for the maintenance department - unfortunately we do not fire with pellets


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## bote3 (Feb 6, 2010)

i installed us stove 5500 m yesterday in my basement and it really does not throw out wuch heat unfortunsty my stove is used so i called us stove and they told me i needed to shut stove off and clean behind 2 little doors next to burn pot also to try different pellets had an englander 25 pdv and this stove threw out more heat just my 2 cents


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## Regor (Feb 6, 2010)

I hooked up an OAK this morning - didn't make any difference.

After lunch I shut it down and went through it completely - cleaning everything.  There was, IMO, excessive ash in the chamber area behind the fire box.  The manual recommends removing the inspection plates and cleaning every ton burned.  I've burned 300 lbs. and there was 6 inches of ash in this area.  To me, this indicates excessive airflow through the stove causing the ash carryover.  This would also mean the exit gas would be passing through the heat exchanger to fast to effectively conduct a good heat transfer.  Pretty crappy efficiency.  I've tried various damper settings, from 1/4" (pretty sad flame) to almost wide open (pellets looked like popcorn in the pot) and everywhere in between.  

I have notice uneven temperatures at the heat exchanger output - 100 degrees F on the left - 105 in the center - 115 to 120 degrees on the right.  Indicates uneven airflow and the flame is leaning to the right.  

Back to the drawing board, I guess.


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## Regor (Feb 16, 2010)

I got the flue plates in last week and they did help some.  The flame straightened up some, ash carry over quit, and while the flue exhaust is still hotter than the convection air, it is not blowing like a blast furnace.  I am still not all that pleased with the heat output - 175 degrees on setting 4; 150 degrees on setting 3; 105 degrees on setting 2 and setting 1 is not worth bothering with.  I have tried a couple of different brand of pellets (pretty much all that is available locally) and settled on Rocky Mountain which friends have had good luck with.  

I contacted Breckwell again today asking if the flue plates were standard and maybe my stove was just missing them.  It appears that the stove does not normally come with flue plates and they send them as a last resort.  Sounds like shoddy engineering to me.  Apparently my expectations are too high because the rep said that the 175 degree temperature on setting 4 is "a little hotter than our own test numbers".  Is it just me or does that sound a little weak for a supposedly 55,000 BTU stove (unless that includes the energy going out the flue).

Sorry for the rant, just frustrated. 

Roger

PS; Thanks SmokeyTheBear for the info and suggestions via PM's.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 16, 2010)

Roger,

The ratings on all stoves are input firing rates.  To get the net output rating you have to take the firing rate and multiply it by the efficiency of the stove.  

The amount of heat coming out of the convection blower portion is not in fact measured by a thermometer, the thermometer doesn't factor in the volume of air being moved.

For example a blower capable of 1000 cfm (I don't know what yours operates at, this is to simplify the numbers) delivering air at 90 degrees in a room of 4000 cf say a room of 500 square feet and 8 foot high ceilings can in theory get that room to 90 degrees in 4 minutes if there are no heat loss to account for and the stove doesn't keep sucking its own heated convection air back in.


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## Regor (Feb 16, 2010)

SmokeyTheBear,

Ok, thanks for the clarification.  I may be comparing apples (my stove) to oranges (friends claiming 200+ degrees).  I'm not sure what my blower is rated at but it does put out a pretty good volume of air, possibly more than the comparison stoves (oranges).  This would explain the temperature discrepencies.  I may be expecting too much, plus the whole thing with the flue plates kind of threw up a red flag.

Roger


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## jtakeman (Feb 16, 2010)

Regor said:
			
		

> I'm not sure what my blower is rated at but it does put out a pretty good volume of air, Roger



Your blower is rated at 135 CFM's on high. You would have to check the voltage being fedd to it to figure out the CFM on low fan speed. Just FYI.

You should see higher temps on low fan speed, But you are not moving as much air.


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## rick31797 (Feb 16, 2010)

I am curious what the outcome was.
Rick


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 16, 2010)

Roger,

The reason I don't get involved in recommending any stoves is that most folks don't have any idea of the heat loss of their house (or whatever) thus it isn't even possible to say a particular stove can even handle the job when it is working properly.

This can lead to all kinds of frustration.

These stoves are generally slow in providing heat, my 4000 cubic foot room example above requires almost 30 minutes with a 135 cfm blower on high to do the same thing that the 1000 cfm blower did in 4 minutes.   Given that you have to heat the air and distribute it and that takes a long time and likely your house (or whatever) is going to allow additional air to infiltrate during that time it becomes a battle just to get enough air heated let alone counteract the heat losses through the walls, ceilings, etc.  

It also doesn't help if the stove is sucking up heated air and blowing it out the vent.  But I won't go there.


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## Regor (Feb 17, 2010)

Jtakeman - Thanks for the info.  The fan speed is directly related to the pellet feed on this stove but I understand your point.

Rick - outcome on ???  If your wondering about the flue plates, they really did make a big improvement.  It just has me wondering why they are not originally used in this stove.

Smokey - Thanks again for the insight.  I just got off to a rocky start and the whole thing with the flue plates instantly made me skeptical of the whole thing.  I believe the stove is now probably performing correctly.  I will get through the rest of this winter (here in MO the temps should be improving in another 3 or 4 weeks) and re-evaluate my heating needs for next winter.  Going back to firewood may be the answer for this particular application (shop heat) and maybe I can move the pellet stove into the house.

I've had a request via PM for photos so I will see if I can figure out how to post a few.

Thanks all,
Roger


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## robmayas (Feb 17, 2010)

So is it worth the money or not?I will be purchasing a pellet stove in the coming weeks and im curios.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 17, 2010)

robmaya said:
			
		

> So is it worth the money or not?I will be purchasing a pellet stove in the coming weeks and im curios.



If you are going to put cold hard cash down on a heating device make certain it can handle the HEAT LOSS OF YOUR STRUCTURE.  If it can't then no matter what you get it for (or what you get) you'll be disappointed.


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## robmayas (Feb 17, 2010)

yep i hear ya^
im looking for a reliable pellet stove and the more researchn i do the more problems i find with these stoves. i want to stay around 2500.


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## Regor (Feb 17, 2010)

robmaya said:
			
		

> So is it worth the money or not?I will be purchasing a pellet stove in the coming weeks and im curios.



I'm probably the wrong person to answer this question but if I had a chance to do it over - I wouldn't.  Not without a lot more research than I put into it initially.  

I was in a rush because my wood stove flue caught fire one evening, burning a hole through the pipe (my fault) and my wife freaked.  I was planning on going out of town for 5 days and needed to either replace the stove pipe/flue or come up with an alternative quickly (one that my wife would feel was safe in my absence).  My wood stove was getting some age on it and was about due for replacement so I let some friends at work convince me that a pellet stove would solve my problem.  I liked the idea of the convenience and safety aspect of a pellet stove so I pulled the trigger based on their advice and the guy at the Farm & Home store.  Turns out this stove is probably not ideal for my application (I'm heating a shop rather than my home).

Is the stove worth the money?  Probably.  Is this the stove for you?  I don't know.

Take the advice of many on this forum and only use a knowledgable dealer who will be there to answer questions, solve any problems that may arise, and will back the product.  You are already one step ahead of me in that you are here on this forum prior to buying a stove.

Good luck,
Roger


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## Regor (Feb 17, 2010)

Okay folks, I'm finished with my rant. I'll chalk it up to blind inexperience, rash decisions, and lessons learned. Time to move on and enjoy what I've got. I truly appreciate everyone's input and with that said I will now try to post some pictures.

I had a request for pics of the flue plates and since I don't have any way to add text to the photos I will try to briefly describe the pics.

One shot of the flue plates pulled out and lying on the floor - left side and right side.
A shot of the plate being slipped in to position on the left side - to the left of the heat exchanger and slides back (right side is similar).
A shot of the plate in position on the left side.
And the stove running.


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## rick31797 (Feb 17, 2010)

I come close too buying one of these pellet stoves, they look so well made.It would have did me fine because i would have been just been using it too help heat a large room along with Gas.

I think you just have too big an area too heat, 2400sq ft  My gas furnace 75,000 BTU furnace would have problems heating that area.I am surprised the wood stove does as good as job as it does.
Ceiling fans might help you move the air around.. But when i hear that your have a flue gas temp of 200 , that don't sound good at all.. I have a thelin and have 10 ft of pipe inside going from the stove through the ceiling.. on high i can reach up and put my hand on the pipe, and its not hot enough to burn me.. that tell me the heat is going where it should be.

Rick


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## Regor (Feb 17, 2010)

Rick

The stove really does appear to be well made.  
Yeah, I do have a large area to heat and I'm not expecting 70 degree temps, I was kind of shooting for 30 degrees (average) above outside temperature.  Daytime temps here usually average in the 20's and I would like to see my shop at least 50 degrees at these temperatures. 
The flue plates really helped slow down the flue gas, it's still pretty hot but it's not blowing at as high a velocity as it was before.  I would encourage anyone who has this model to contact Breckwell and ask for the plates.  If mine is any indication, it would have to help their efficiency.

Roger


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 17, 2010)

robmaya said:
			
		

> yep i hear ya^
> im looking for a reliable pellet stove and the more researchn i do the more problems i find with these stoves. i want to stay around 2500.



There are more stoves that didn't have problems than what you landing here and finding would indicate.   This is a place to get answers and places like that tend to attract folks with problems needing answers.

It frequently isn't a major issue that causes the problems it is the lack of completely reading (and this means between the lines) and understanding the manual(s) and getting to know the air path through your stove.  These devices must be kept reasonably clean. 

If you are handy with a few simple tools and patient you will soon have an understanding of how your stove operates and be able to handle it well on your own.

If on the other hand you need someone else to do this you really need to find a good dealer and understand that unless you are getting a furnace, these are not considered primary heating devices and a dealer will put you in his schedule based on their prior commitments.  This can mean it will be several days or longer before they can get to you.

Once you can answer the heat loss question then you need to gather a list of stoves that exceed that value divided by each stoves efficiency rate at their middle firing rate .    This figure will put the stove into a position where it can handle a normal winter with some reserve and burn relatively clean. 

Even then you need to understand that the relatively low blower rates means it takes time to get the heat distributed so it will not be a quickly responding system.   It can take more than an hour to move a 960 sq ft structures air through a large number of stoves with the fan on high and assuming the air sent out doesn't come back until the rest of the air goes through (which of course doesn't happen).


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## Bail22 (Dec 29, 2010)

Roger, 
It took me a good month to learn the sweet spot on the Big E.  I either had a defective ashpan or I warped the ashpan somehow.  Once I got that diagnosed, I was able to get my heat up to 190-200 degrees on level 4.  I am heating a three story house from the basement which is a science in itself.  I will take some pictures of my install & check on the plates when I shutdown for cleaning tomorrow evening.  I read your rant & I can only tell you it sounds pretty similar to mine.  I have my rant in a word document just trying to finish it, I will get it posted soon.
Stay warm


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## Regor (Dec 29, 2010)

Was the warp in your ash pan very noticable?  I will look mine over a little closer tomorrow.  I have noticed a little air in leakage around the door glass but it is not bad enough yet to go through the headache of getting it repaired IMO.  I'm looking forward to reading about your experience (rant) with this stove.  
Should be able to turn it down Thursday - looking at close to 60 degrees in our area.

Roger


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