# Geospring HPWH being discontinued



## DBoon

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com...ing-news/ge-will-drop-heat-pump-water-heaters


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## maple1

Huh.

That's too bad...


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## Highbeam

maple1 said:


> Huh.
> 
> That's too bad...



Maybe they'll finally allow us to have split system heat pump boilers. I always saw the HPWH as a temporary technology, stealing room heat and putting that noise in the living space with low dependability and efficiency. Not unlike CFLs.


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## maple1

I can still see merit in using a HPWH - especially if it will also offset some dehumidification & a/c costs.

Then the one comment about putting it in the same space as a freezer also seems like a good idea.

But basing a purchase of a HPWH on just recouping up front costs by DHW energy savings over time doesn't work out for me. I only spend $20-25/mo heating DHW with a conventional cheap resistance heater. For 6 months of the year. (Wood heats it the rest of the year). In an area with little to no purchase incentives. So the energy savings just don't compute with the extra up-front costs, for us.

I have an electric boiler for backup heat. But in no way would want to use it for primary heat - I think it would run us $20/day. So I'm always trying to keep up with what else is out there, and what might be coming, for the future. Oil is a lot cheaper now than 4 years ago when I yanked all our oil stuff out, so it's sort of in the picture again. But I am still waiting to hear & see more about the HPWH 'boilers' that I heard were on the horizon, somewhere, a couple years ago, that use CO2 (I think) for refrigerant, and can put out truly hot water. Maybe if I hold out loooonnnggg enough.....


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## cableman

Yeah its a shame, hopefully thell have parts for us who need them. Love mine so far but its only a few months old.
Ill keep my eye out for them hpwh boilers, id love to pull the oil boiler for that providing it works as well.


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## DBoon

Yeah, it is too bad.  I was going to install one in my next home (undergoing remodeling now).  I have a Geyser now, and that is working well, but an all-in-one system had appeal, and I had heard good things about the Geospring.  Guess I'll go with another Geyser - I have heard mixed reports on some of the other units out there that are reasonably priced.


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## woodgeek

I agree with the commenter Dana Dorsett that poor sales were the result of poor early build quality and internet reviews.


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## velvetfoot

I can see the hp water heaters having an advantage when operating off a generator during a power outage.  I think the Geospring can lock out the resistance rods, but I don't think there's a super easy way to do that on my Nyletherm, unless I mess around with one of the thermostats (since it works on 240 v., off of one of the tank's thermostats).  My Nyletherm runs for about an hour after I take my morning shower, at about 700 watts or so.


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## iamlucky13

Highbeam said:


> Maybe they'll finally allow us to have split system heat pump boilers. I always saw the HPWH as a temporary technology, stealing room heat and putting that noise in the living space with low dependability and efficiency. Not unlike CFLs.



The two stage heating process also isn't as efficient as it could be, especially since the compact compressor on top of a HPWH no doubt compromises efficiency for size. Pairing split systems to water heating seems pretty compelling.

On the other hand, in warm climates, using a HPWH to simultaneously cool your living space and heat your water has some appeal.


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## STIHLY DAN

iamlucky13 said:


> Pairing split systems to water heating seems pretty compelling.


They have these out now. Wicked expensive.
I herd from the supply house that GE is dropping all water heaters, not just hpwh. Parts are already hard to come by.


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## Kobeman

Man, That sucks, I love mine, paid for itself in 6 mos due to the rural electric coop rebates.  Just my luck, every time I pull the trigger on an appliance it gets discontinued, Isle Royale, Geospring......such is life !


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## Seasoned Oak

My electric bill is down $52 over the same month last year and last month it was down $32 even with a higher average temp that necessitated extensive use of AC in July. The savings are real and substantial. Dehumidifier dont run nearly as much contributing to the electric savings.


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## Seasoned Oak

Rheem sells an equivalent model for about the same price with a 12 YR warranty, but im not sure of the specs,they list a $215 annual energy cost but a 2.45 Energy factor while the GE has an energy factor of 3.25 and list an annual operating cost of $220 in some ads and $163 in others,both at 12c a KWH ,sounds illogical. Sears has one too but they want $499 for their ridiculous overpriced protection agreement  as with all their appliances but it does come with a 10 YR parts warranty standard. (sounds like GE makes it) So it looks like one can still get these after GE bails.


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## iamlucky13

You don't have to buy the protection agreement.

I hated being forced to push those protection agreements when I worked at Sears. At the time, it was a relatively new strategy, and we were required to push them hard. They wanted something like 10% of sales where a PA was offered to achieve the upsell. I think we averaged about 5%. The other 95% of the customers were just annoyed by the hardball pitch. I suspect it was a net negative strategy for Sears. I can't tell you how many times I delivered the canned sales lines we were ordered to use, and was met with, "It sounds like you're telling me you're knowingly selling a defective product. Maybe I should check out Home Depot instead." Depending on the product, the protection agreement price was anywhere from 10-50% of the product price.

The economics are not in your favor (otherwise they wouldn't sell them). The manufacturer warranty (speaking only for the HPWH) covers year one, parts and labor. Defects tend to show up earlier in a product life than later, so many are caught by the warranty. The 10 year warranty is parts only. The protection agreement covers through year 3, and includes parts and labor. However they want over 1/3 the price of the water heater to cover 1/4 of its rated life, and odds are probably less than 5% it will fail in that time.

If it does fail, you're facing a minimum of $100 to get a repairman on site, but only the worst failures are very likely to exceed $500. Moral of the story: keep the money in your bank account as part of your emergency fund, which applies to any appliance failure, not just your water heater.


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## Seasoned Oak

Sears wanted Almost $800 (absolutely ridiculous)for a PA on a refrigerator that cost $2200. Instead i bought the same refrigerator at Home Depot for the same price and paid $99 for a longer extended warranty than the one sears offered ,which i used several times as my LG refrigerator has been problematic right from the start. Over $1000 in repairs in the first 15 months. I always get extended warranties on refrigerators with icemakers,it pays.


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## begreen

I always check repair and complaint records on new appliances before buying. Bought a new GE refrig (w/icemaker), Electrolux Oven 6 yrs ago and Frigidaire (Electrolux) Washer and Dryer 7 years ago. No service on any of them so far.


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## cableman

Hope my geosprings lasts and gives me no problems.

I need a fridge, this house has a side by side smack against the left side wall so i can barely open the freezer door!
I hate french door bottom freezers, might have to just go back to the top freezer models. 
Seems nothing lasts anymore, its a shame


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## CaptSpiff

Read this posting after a long time away, so I may be covering old news, but weren't new US Gov't Efficiency Standards hitting this year that made "simple resistive element" tank water heaters above 50 gallons prohibited?

I recall having a discussion about the proposed standards having 2 big downsides (besides cost):
1. the much thicker insulation made the smaller units much fatter and may prevent replacements from fitting in the same location.
2. any unit bigger than 50 gallons would have to be a HWHP design.

Did those standards never become final?
Can't see how GE could be getting out if they were in place.


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## woodgeek

CaptSpiff said:


> Read this posting after a long time away, so I may be covering old news, but weren't new US Gov't Efficiency Standards hitting this year that made "simple resistive element" tank water heaters above 50 gallons prohibited?
> 
> I recall having a discussion about the proposed standards having 2 big downsides (besides cost):
> 1. the much thicker insulation made the smaller units much fatter and may prevent replacements from fitting in the same location.
> 2. any unit bigger than 50 gallons would have to be a HWHP design.
> 
> Did those standards never become final?
> Can't see how GE could be getting out if they were in place.



I think the standards are still being rolled out.  GE is getting out of lots of consumer goods, including appliances, that I guess don't have the margins they are used to compared to jet engines and steam turbines.


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## iamlucky13

The new standard mainly affects tanks over 55 gallons. Most residential water heaters are 55 gallons or less, so those with large houses are the most likely to be affected.

Rheem says the implementation was last year. They also give a table of the new required energy factors:
http://www.rheem.com/products/water_heating/NAECA/

An energy factor over 0.98 is almost impossible to achieve with resistance heat from a practical standpoint. Energy factors over 1 effectively mean you need a heat pump.


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## Seasoned Oak

ID buy a Heat pump dryer in a minute if they had the kind of rebates they have for the water heater. But $1000 to $1500 for the dryer ,just dont think you would ever get the difference back. Biggest reason to buy one at this time is ,if you cant vent the traditional dryer to the outdoors.


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## tom in maine

We are going to be selling HP boilers starting in Dec.
It is a "soft" start, with only 24 units available. More will be in 2017.
They are being made to our specs, given the experiences we have dealt with trying to get a decent unit
that was affordable.

Will also be offering fan convectors.
These are units that output heated antifreeze with no refrigerant plumbing needed.
They operate to -11F and have a heat output rating of 31k btus. They are reversible for cooling as are the convectors.

The initial price on the heat pumps will be about $3400.
Will post more soon.


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## Seasoned Oak

My geospring continues to pump out savings ,Form 1300KWH last year 2015 in Oct to 991 this year Oct. 2016 . So almost $40   Looks like Ill avg about $400+ per yr in savings .Even with no rebates that woulds only take 2.5 Yrs to pay off the entire heater. Since i zeroed out the heater cost up front its all money in the bank.  Probably some pecentage of the savings come from the Dehumidifier rarely coming on anymore.


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## TradEddie

Seasoned Oak said:


> My geospring continues to pump out savings


Mine too. Before installing the Geospring I was using about 12000 kwh/year, I had a goal of 10,000 through switching to LED bulbs and other efficiency improvements, but two years into having the Geospring, I'm down to less than 8500 kwh/year. It's already more than paid the cost difference, so as long as it stays working, I'm happy.

TE


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## Clarkbug

Been a while since I have had a chance to post anything (or even read anything) and one of the first things I see is this post as I start looking into finally replacing my heater.  I guess Ill have to investigate the Rheem units or see if National Grid will incentivize the Nyletherm  Glad I saw this news.  I know the Geospring had some issues, and knowing that they wont be available as a wholesale replacement unit doesnt make me thrilled.


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## woodgeek

Look at the AO Smith units while you're at it. I like mine.  

3-4 yrs ago the Rheem units had poor efficiency number relative to competitors.  Look at 'EF' ratings.


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## STIHLY DAN

I bet another company will take over the factory and produce these exact tanks. I believe its only 3 companies that actually make the heaters. Bradford white or state makes the rheem if I remember right.


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## Seasoned Oak

I hope so ill be buying another one ,im sure.


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## Brian26

There are still a few in stock at Lowe's throughout CT for $699 that includes the huge utility credit/rebate off the store price instantly. Anyone can walk in and buy one for $699. Lowes shows them for double the price in neighboring states for $1399.

That price does not include the $300 federal credit available to end of the year. So final price could be $400 if you can use the tax credit.

Looks like GE will fully continue supporting them. They just released this on their website recently.

GE Appliances has decided to discontinue manufacturing the GeoSpring hybrid electric water heater at the end of the 2016. In order to remain competitive globally, we at GE Appliances need to stay focused on how we best serve the interests of the current market and appliance owners, as well as growing sales to reinvest in both products, services and operations long-term.

GE Appliances will continue to honor all warranties for GeoSpring™ heat pump water. We will continue to provide parts and service for the GeoSpring. For service and support on the GeoSpring Hybrid Electric Water Heater, please contact the Innovations line at 1-888-443-4394, Monday - Friday from 8:00 AM to 6:00 PM.


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## cableman

Good to hear. Mines working well and much better then the old tankless coil. Now if i can get a heat pump boiler that would be great!


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## Seasoned Oak

Brian26 said:


> There are still a few in stock at Lowe's throughout CT for $699 that includes the huge utility credit/rebate off the store price instantly. Anyone can walk in and buy one for $699. Lowes shows them for double the price in neighboring states for $1399.
> 
> That price does not include the $300 federal credit available to end of the year. So final price could be $400 if you can use the tax credit.
> .


Most states have a utility rebate as well. I got a $400 rebate check from my electric Company a few weeks after purchase. I still have to file for the $300 tax credit yet. $699 is a fantastic price.


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## Seasoned Oak

I turned off the Geo for a few weeks to let my boiler heat my water and now i noticed evidence of some slow leakage and a small rust spots below the element housing covers. Very same situation iv had with regular water heaters. If left on they stay hot and any small leaks or even high humidity has no bad effect but if they are allowed to stay cold for any length of time small leaks get rusty fast. Ill be leaving it on and up to temperature from now on as i think it will last much longer. Probably cost very little to keep this bad boy hot especially when there is no cold coming in and the surrounding temp is 78 Deg.


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## woodgeek

Most boilers run a gallon a day, at a minimum.  Figure out the cost per BTU at 110kBTU/gallon and you price of oil and figure you are getting 10,000 BTU per kWh from the Geo.  The oil will not be negligible, but with cheap oil it might not be that different from the geo.


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## cableman

woodgeek said:


> Most boilers run a gallon a day, at a minimum.  Figure out the cost per BTU at 110kBTU/gallon and you price of oil and figure you are getting 10,000 BTU per kWh from the Geo.  The oil will not be negligible, but with cheap oil it might not be that different from the geo.



Gallon a day even while just sitting at 120*?
 I shut mine off for 6months then turned it back on but its only been maintaining as there hasnt really been a call for heat.


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## woodgeek

Mine ran 1.2 gal/day with no call for heat.  And if I set the temp that low, I got condensation and sooted up a lot.


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## cableman

Mine comes on bout 2-3 times and raises temp to 135ish, only takes a couple min to get the temp there. If theres a call it goes to 185 couple times b4 thermastat is satisfied. I sure hope im not burning a gallon a day just keeping it warm!


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## woodgeek

I wired a 120V hour meter like this one

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0027NLO8K/?tag=hearthamazon-20

across the burner motor, and it was running about 1.0h per day while we were on vacation.  And all that heat needs to go somewhere, my AC bill dropped 50% when I ditched the boiler.

Obviously, if you are only running 10mins per day, that is a different story.


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## maple1

cableman said:


> Mine comes on bout 2-3 times and raises temp to 135ish, only takes a couple min to get the temp there. If theres a call it goes to 185 couple times b4 thermastat is satisfied. I sure hope im not burning a gallon a day just keeping it warm!



My old one drank around 3/4 gallon per day just to keep itself warm, when we were using it to heat our DHW in the summer. From all I have read, that was normal - maybe even on the low side. Lots of standby losses in an oil boiler - although some are certainly better/worse than others. I'd be interested to see what an hour meter told you. 

(Is yours a cold start boiler? Do you have a tankless coil or indirect?)


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## cableman

(Is yours a cold start boiler? Do you have a tankless coil or indirect?)[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> I removed the tankless coil cause of the geospring install. Still have the triple aquastat maintaining 120-130 for heating season. Its a peerless wbv3 so i didnt wanna make it cold start. I did just pick up a riello f3 so i can run this at its least gph rating.


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## STIHLY DAN

My calc for oil use was 5 gals of diesel last 6 sometimes 7 days before running out. I new I was going to pull it out so I did not want to be stuck with 100 gals to get rid of when it was time. Did this for 6 months.


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## Mike Fromme

Seasoned Oak said:


> Most states have a utility rebate as well. I got a $400 rebate check from my electric Company a few weeks after purchase. I still have to file for the $300 tax credit yet. $699 is a fantastic price.


I picked one up for 900 at lowes last month... Now they are up to 1400 again here.

500 local and 30% federal rebate. Didn't make sense to keep burning oil.

Like others I was burning ~.75 gallons of oil a day for hot water in the summer with an oil boiler and indirect.


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## SolarAndWood

I replaced an old LP unit with a Geospring a few years ago and have been really happy with it other than the noise (bloody loud IMO).  It rarely leaves heat pump only mode.


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## cableman

I dont notice the noise but its in my basement, and when im down there its a hell of alot quieter then the boiler! 
Basement dropped to 59 while it was on last night but raises back to 61. Its def a good combo having the boiler act as a space warmer since this thing kicks out cold air.


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## Seasoned Oak

cableman said:


> Basement dropped to 59 while it was on last night but raises back to 61. Its def a good combo having the boiler act as a space warmer since this thing kicks out cold air.


I have mine only about 4 feet from my solid fuel boiler ,so the air temps are around 80 all the time.Warmer than in summer. Lots of heat in 80 degree air. HPWH dont have to run long.


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## Mike Fromme

Effiency Maine has increased the rebate to $750 now.


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## CaptSpiff

Mike Fromme said:


> Effiency Maine has increased the rebate to $750 now.



Is that instantly at point of sale, or do you need to file to request reimbursement?


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## Mike Fromme

CaptSpiff said:


> Is that instantly at point of sale, or do you need to file to request reimbursement?


Mail-in rebate form. Must have Maine address.


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## Seasoned Oak

I hope these things remain available ,ill always have one if they do!  Just the electric savings alone will pay for it without incentives.


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## Clarkbug

woodgeek said:


> Look at the AO Smith units while you're at it. I like mine.
> 
> 3-4 yrs ago the Rheem units had poor efficiency number relative to competitors.  Look at 'EF' ratings.



Bit of a delay on my end,  but the Rheem is listed as a 3.5 EF,  which seems pretty did.   They are on sale now at my local Home Depot for $1000,  and National Grid offers a $400 rebate.   

But I think you have to pay to have it installed,  so that might eat a chunk of the rebate up...


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## woodgeek

My info could easily be out of date....5 years ago they used a different refrigerant than the other makers and had a crazy 'low temp cutout' (like switches to the element below 50°F) and some other bad engineering.

I would be ok taking the 3.5 EF rating at face value (I assume there is independent testing).  Mine is listed as 2.2 or 2.4 I think.


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## Clarkbug

woodgeek said:


> My info could easily be out of date....5 years ago they used a different refrigerant than the other makers and had a crazy 'low temp cutout' (like switches to the element below 50°F) and some other bad engineering.
> 
> I would be ok taking the 3.5 EF rating at face value (I assume there is independent testing).  Mine is listed as 2.2 or 2.4 I think.



I agree that a 3.5 seemed pretty solid.  My fear is just that they are so new, the kinks havent been worked out yet, and the protection plan is only 5 years (before at Lowes you could get the 10 year on the GeoSpring).  I normally dont buy the plans, but for something like this thats a bunch of money, it seems like its worth the peace of mind.

I like that it also seems that you can attach ducting without any special adaptors to this model.  If I get it, I may attach some flex-duct and route the intake to where my storage tanks tend to bleed some heat in the winter.


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## iamlucky13

Clarkbug said:


> Bit of a delay on my end,  but the Rheem is listed as a 3.5 EF,  which seems pretty did.   They are on sale now at my local Home Depot for $1000,  and National Grid offers a $400 rebate.
> 
> But I think you have to pay to have it installed,  so that might eat a chunk of the rebate up...



It looks like Home Depot lists the Rheem Performance Platinum on their website, which is listed at 2.45 energy factor.

Rheem claims 3.5 EF for the Professional Prestige. I'm not seeing this model on Home Depot's site.

This should be the rating per the DOE test procedure, which is at 58 degree inlet water temperature, 135 degree final water temperature, and 67.5 degree air temperature.

I looked at heat pump models when I installed my current water heater 5 years ago, but I wasn't able to figure out a way to fit one in my existing closet and assure good air flow to it. If they keep improving, I may have to try harder to fit things in the next time my water heater needs replacing.


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## Clarkbug

iamlucky13 said:


> It looks like Home Depot lists the Rheem Performance Platinum on their website, which is listed at 2.45 energy factor.
> 
> Rheem claims 3.5 EF for the Professional Prestige. I'm not seeing this model on Home Depot's site.
> 
> This should be the rating per the DOE test procedure, which is at 58 degree inlet water temperature, 135 degree final water temperature, and 67.5 degree air temperature.
> 
> I looked at heat pump models when I installed my current water heater 5 years ago, but I wasn't able to figure out a way to fit one in my existing closet and assure good air flow to it. If they keep improving, I may have to try harder to fit things in the next time my water heater needs replacing.



Hmmm.   Here is the link I'm looking at.

http://m.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-Perf...-and-10-Year-Warranty-XE50T10HD50U0/300620237

Under the specs it says 3.5.  I'll have to do some checking to see what the true rating is.


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## iamlucky13

Strange. The day I posted that, the highest rating I could find for a water heater on Home Depot was 2.45. Now it definitely reads 3.5.


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## woodgeek

I looked at the EFs of a number of HPWHs, and they all seem 20-30% higher than they were 4 years ago when I bought mine (when they were all 2.0 to 2.4).  I would suppose that when these were 'weird' low-volume products the engineering was not done that well, and then when volumes became greater and HPWHs became enshrined in code, these companies actually engineered to compete on eff grounds.

It make me wonder if GE bagged its line because it was not interested in improving the engineering....anyone know what the late model qeospring EFs were?

OK, the 'pro' version of the geospring in EF = 3.4.  Hmmm.

https://www.gpconservation.com/ge-geospring-geh50dfejsr.html


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## Brian26

woodgeek said:


> I looked at the EFs of a number of HPWHs, and they all seem 20-30% higher than they were 4 years ago when I bought mine (when they were all 2.0 to 2.4).  I would suppose that when these were 'weird' low-volume products the engineering was not done that well, and then when volumes became greater and HPWHs became enshrined in code, these companies actually engineered to compete on eff grounds.
> 
> It make me wonder if GE bagged its line because it was not interested in improving the engineering....anyone know what the late model qeospring EFs were?
> 
> OK, the 'pro' version of the geospring in EF = 3.4.  Hmmm.
> 
> https://www.gpconservation.com/ge-geospring-geh50dfejsr.html



I tried digging into finding that out once. 

I have had my 2nd gen for almost 4 years. 2 years ago or so the filter light kept coming on. Called GE and they send me out a new upgraded fan kit. I installed it and it seemed to be about twice as powerful as the old one. The new fan really pulled some air compared to the old one. Maybe they just boosted the fan output?


1st gen- 2.35
2nd gen- 2.4 energy factor
3rd gen- 3.25/3.4? Energy factor

Edit- I actually just checked. Completely different compressor and fan assembly on the 3rd generation compared to the 2nd. I cross referenced parts here. 

https://www.geapplianceparts.com/store/parts/ModelSectionParts/GEH50DFEJSRA/3/0/0/0/UNIT_PARTS


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## Seasoned Oak

They are not discounted anymore. When i got mine they were $999 for months at lowes, now same one is $1399 .not a penny off.


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## cableman

I paid 1299 for the 80 gal.
You guys run yours in hp only mode or hybrid? My basement temp goes to lowest 56* so far but goes back up to 57/58 while its not running. Its been running pretty long like 5/6 hours maybe more after the kids shower or bath. They seem to use the most hot water!
Im wondering if hybrid would be more efficient in winter making it recover faster.


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## Tegbert

cableman said:


> I paid 1299 for the 80 gal.
> You guys run yours in hp only mode or hybrid? My basement temp goes to lowest 56* so far but goes back up to 57/58 while its not running. Its been running pretty long like 5/6 hours maybe more after the kids shower or bath. They seem to use the most hot water!
> Im wondering if hybrid would be more efficient in winter making it recover faster.



I used to run only hp mode. Switched to hybrid after the wife took a shower and then I did and had no hot water. It works a lot better but doesn't run the elements unless there is a demand. So when the water is off it will kick off the elements and run hp only. Mine also runs a while in hp mode. Yeah it uses more power but maybe I will switch it back in the spring or summer time. 


Lopi Rockport


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## cableman

Mines 80gal, so far i have never ran out of hot water with 4 showers and whatever else we run. 
Ok So hybrid would only use the elements if hot water was being used and demand was high. It would not switch back and forth if hot water use was done and tank was just recovering correct?


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## Tegbert

That's how mine works. Mine the 50 gallon one but I'm sure the programming is the same. Once the demand is gone it is just on hp mode. The electric light will light when they are on and I've seen it go off after a shower and continues to run the heat pump. 


Lopi Rockport


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## woodgeek

I run hp only.  I got the 80 so that I would run out less.  Switch it to hybrid if I have like 5 adults sleeping over, and I remember.


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## Seasoned Oak

Hybrid mode claims it uses both elements and HP .That should not be a problem because the HP mode only uses about 10% more Kw than straight  Element which is 4500 Watts. And HP is an additional 500+ watts.  I use hybrid rarely when i have several back to back showers and washer going. As the air temp around my WH is around 80 degrees in winter the HP only mode 99% of the time is plenty.


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## Brian26

I have the GE service manual for it. It is available online. I believe in hybrid mode it uses the elements to a certain water temp set point and then kicks on the heat pump.

For the sake of how much electricity these will save you I am a week in comparing running mine in heat pump only mode compared to electric elements using my Effergy energy monitor.

Will post the results next weekend. Keep in mind the energy ratings on it are running it in hybrid mode which uses the elements.

In heat pump only mode I am measuring 492 watts using my Effergy monitor.

Electric elements 4347 watts.  Almost 9 times the power!


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## maple1

Yes, but time running at each is a pretty big part of the equation.


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## Seasoned Oak

maple1 said:


> Yes, but time running at each is a pretty big part of the equation.


And at what the air temp around the WH is. Will run longer in a colder space.


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## woodgeek

And the compressor current **changes** as the temp of the water rises.


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## STIHLY DAN

Hybrid just brings on the elements and shuts off the hp if the water temp drops down to a certain temp (don't remember the #) so when hp only is not keeping up it turns the electric on as that makes more heat faster. The hp and elements are NEVER on at the same time. In boost mode it just turns the elements on at a higher temp. 

To any of you with other brands or newer units. Does your unit go in a self test mode on power up? That is the only thing I don't care for on the GE. If it didn't have that it could run off a generator during a power outage.


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## cableman

What temp you guys have yours set at? Im at 120*


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## woodgeek

me too.  Hot enough to be 'safe', not that I worry about legionella.  Not going to scald (takes a long time).  Hot enough.


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## Seasoned Oak

cableman said:


> What temp you guys have yours set at? Im at 120*


Im now at 140 . Been doing multiple showers back to back and laundry at the same time. Otherwise i have to use the elements in hybrid mode. 140 allows me to use 100% HP mode as i can mix 50% cold and essentially double the  50 Gallon storage capacity. I try not to use the elements if possible. Defeats the purpose of the WH.


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## cableman

You think im at risk for legionnaires keeping it at 120?
 We use a good amount of water so i figure its getting flushed out quite often if that makes any difference.
I think 122* doesnt promote the growth of them but can be present.


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## CHeath

all the people read the reviews on amazon on the 50 gallon unit and made up their minds. Including myself. Apparently that thing was a turd.


----------



## woodgeek

cableman said:


> You think im at risk for legionnaires keeping it at 120?
> We use a good amount of water so i figure its getting flushed out quite often if that makes any difference.
> I think 122* doesnt promote the growth of them but can be present.



Nope.  I don't think there is a risk at 120°.  I think there is a tiny risk at somewhat lower temps...I would not run 110°F.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

I run 140 in summer, 130 in winter.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

CHeath said:


> all the people read the reviews on amazon on the 50 gallon unit and made up their minds. Including myself. Apparently that thing was a turd.



I've had my 50 gal for 5 years now. No issues what so ever, family of 5 with 3 teenagers and in HP only mode all the time. I would buy another one in a heart beat. Now this years model is even more efficient.


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## Seasoned Oak

CHeath said:


> all the people read the reviews on amazon on the 50 gallon unit and made up their minds. Including myself. Apparently that thing was a turd.


The worst reviews were pretty old and they keep making improvements,mine is working flawlessly so far for about 9 months. Has a long warranty so i dont see a problem.


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## iamlucky13

cableman said:


> You think im at risk for legionnaires keeping it at 120?
> We use a good amount of water so i figure its getting flushed out quite often if that makes any difference.
> I think 122* doesnt promote the growth of them but can be present.



I would not worry about it. They can survive at that temperature, and in fact even at up to 145 degrees with lower survival rates, yet the overall risk remains low, because the numbers present are very low in most water systems where the incoming water is clean and the water is used regularly so it doesn't just sit and let stuff grow.

As far as I know, the most likely sources of risk in a household environment are humidifiers stored with water in them, and hot tubs not kept maintained for extended periods of time. Basically, things that can potentially get slimy, which is the environment where legionella finds the nutrients it needs to grow, and then where water may be slashed or sprayed so droplets get breathed in.

For full disclosure, the CDC disagrees and considers 120 degree water heater settings as much of a risk of legionnaire's disease as 140 degree water is of scalding. When they study patients of the disease, they do find a fair number who don't have the classically known exposure risks (humidifiers, hot tubs, proximity to water cooling towers, etc), but they don't seem to try to distinguish between domestic hot water and other potential sources of risk, like standing water in and around the home.

So for a very rare disease that's primarily a risk to the elderly and those with weak immune systems, your water heat is at worst one of the minor risk factors.


----------



## DBoon

I still see the Geospring at Lowes - does anyone know why they are still for sale so long after the discontinuance announcement? Did they have that many in stock? Or did the new owner of GE Appliances change their mind about discontinuing these?


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## Seasoned Oak

Could be they sold the right to make them to someone else ,or just leftover stock. Its a great heater though ,i hope its available in the future.


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## woodgeek

I think I heard the brand was sold....not sure.


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## begreen

The GE webpage for the GeoSpring appears to be current and it lists current rebates for our area. 
http://www.geappliances.com/ge/heat-pump-hot-water-heater.htm


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## iamlucky13

woodgeek said:


> I think I heard the brand was sold....not sure.



Yes. It was sold to Bradford and White:
http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com...ord-white-buys-geospring-rights-and-equipment


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## woodgeek

What the article left unsaid is whether Bradford and While will be making them under the geospring 'badge'....or is it that GE is still selling out its existing inventory.

The article says the market for geospring is 60k units/yr.  If you figure there are 60 million single family detached homes in the US, and each replaces its HWH every 10 years (average), that is 6 million tanks.yr.  So figure geospring got 1% of the market, maybe everyone else together got another fraction.  Sad.


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## Seasoned Oak

Its sort of like Mini-splits. They are super efficient and pay for themselves over time, but the up front cost dont appeal to the masses.


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## STIHLY DAN

Its badged under aero therm. Will be installing a few of them soon.


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## Highbeam

Seasoned Oak said:


> Its sort of like Mini-splits. They are super efficient and pay for themselves over time, but the up front cost dont appeal to the masses.



And the intense ugliness Through a rebate, our utility pays 1200$ towards a minisplit. It's not just about cost.

Just wait until they release the water heater models.


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## begreen

LOL, ugly like a black washing machine in the living room.


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## Seasoned Oak

Highbeam said:


> And the intense ugliness Through a rebate, our utility pays 1200$ towards a minisplit. It's not just about cost.
> 
> Just wait until they release the water heater models.


It dont get much uglier than radiators or baseboard radiation. Lots of places to hide the inside unit but i have to agree ,if you cant hide the outside part your in trouble. Theres a guy 2 blocks from me with one on his front porch roof UGH!


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## begreen

Companies have all sorts of alternatives including ceiling units and and wall convectors that sit on the floor.


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## woodgeek

And with many of those alternate distribution systems, the COP drops to a level comparable to a variable speed ducted HP system with modern ducting insulation and sealing.


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## Highbeam

woodgeek said:


> And with many of those alternate distribution systems, the COP drops to a level comparable to a variable speed ducted HP system with modern ducting insulation and sealing.



Exactly!! And honestly, those alternates are often even more ugly than the wall hung monstrosity. The ceiling cassetes are like RV air conditioners so it looks like you're in a trailer. A cast iron radiator at least has some traditional charm.


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## begreen

woodgeek said:


> And with many of those alternate distribution systems, the COP drops to a level comparable to a variable speed ducted HP system with modern ducting insulation and sealing.


With "some" of those options. The floor mounted cabinet style is unducted and heating efficiency is good. It does fall off a bit for AC. The unit can be half-embedded in the wall cavity to reduce depth.


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## iamlucky13

woodgeek said:


> And with many of those alternate distribution systems, the COP drops to a level comparable to a variable speed ducted HP system with modern ducting insulation and sealing.



If you've got less ducting through unconditioned spaces, you should do slightly better overall than a central forced air system, but potentially with the benefit of zonal control, and of course, without retrofitting ducting into a home built without it. Even the ducted variable speed systems apparently do a decent amount better than most of the single-speed systems, due to the ability to run in their more efficient lower speed ranges.



Highbeam said:


> Exactly!! And honestly, those alternates are often even more ugly than the wall hung monstrosity. The ceiling cassetes are like RV air conditioners so it looks like you're in a trailer. A cast iron radiator at least has some traditional charm.



Really? It seems much less obtrusive to me. I agree a radiator does have more charm, but it still gets in the way.

The cassettes don't seem like they'd be much worse visually than return air registers, which in my house is in the ceiling, too.

Personally I'm most intrigued by the idea of ducted mini-splits as an intermediate option between ductless and central systems.


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## begreen

Meanwhile, back on topic here is the official word from GE on the GeoSpring:

http://products.geappliances.com/appliance/gea-support-search-content?contentId=34296


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## WoodyIsGoody

iamlucky13 said:


> On the other hand, in warm climates, using a HPWH to simultaneously cool your living space and heat your water has some appeal.



True. We have a GE HPWH in our Kauai vacation bungalow and the laundry room where the HPWH is located is the coolest room on a hot day. Electricity was around $0.43/kWh last time I checked so it makes a ton of sense. Kauai electrical rates, however,  are coming down as they transition from oil to photovoltaic.


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## velvetfoot

I went down to the basement this morning and it was 57f.   Cool for June 30th.


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## Seasoned Oak

At times i vent the cool air from the basement  produced by the HPWH  into the upstairs rooms . It helps cool the upstairs and also raises the room temp around the WH which allows it to run less. So win win . Iv also all but eliminated the need for a dehumidifier in the basement with this HP water heater. Another savings.  Along with savings in other areas im at about 50% of my KW use from the same time last year.


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## Seasoned Oak

Im getting a strange clicking sound from the Geo WH  before the HP starts . sometimes it dont start. like when i turn up the water temp i was surprised that it didnt start. So i turned off the power and them back on and it started but it did do the clicking sound for about 5 seconds before it started.


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## Where2

Seasoned Oak said:


> Im getting a strange clicking sound from the Geo WH  before the HP starts . sometimes it dont start. like when i turn up the water temp i was surprised that it didnt start. So i turned off the power and them back on and it started but it did do the clicking sound for about 5 seconds before it started.


Sounds like the reaction I'd expect from a high voltage relay going bad. The make/break action of delivering electrical current can tend to pit the contacts over time. If you can locate the source of the clicking sound, you may be able to isolate the component and find one on Newark or Digikey to swap it out, if you're handy with a soldering iron.


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## Seasoned Oak

Where2 said:


> Sounds like the reaction I'd expect from a high voltage relay going bad. The make/break action of delivering electrical current can tend to pit the contacts over time. If you can locate the source of the clicking sound, you may be able to isolate the component and find one on Newark or Digikey to swap it out, if you're handy with a soldering iron.


Wouldnt the warranty service send me one? Its only about a year old.


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## Where2

Seasoned Oak said:


> Wouldnt the warranty service send me one? Its only about a year old.


If it's still under warranty, find your receipt and call the manufacturer. They should be able to troubleshoot it with you and tell you exactly what it needs.


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## Seasoned Oak

I would imagine GE would send me the part as its still under warranty .But it is working  and producing hot water .I guess it dont always come on when you turn the water temp up.


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## maple1

is it in hp only mode?


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## Seasoned Oak

maple1 said:


> is it in hp only mode?


Yea i always keep it in HP mode only unless i have heavy hot water demands like guests and back to back showers. There are so many options for high demand times.  I just dont remember it clicking like that before the compressor starts.  When i need faster recovery i use the hybrid mode.   I love the WH though, its a money saver ,and my electric is not very expensive at about 10-11cKwh .  ill probably never have a regular WH again.


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## Brian26

Good news for those with Geosprings. Bradford White bought all the geospring production equipment last year from GE and relocated it to its factory. They are now producing the Aerotherm which is just a rebranded Geospring. All they did was put a Bradford White sticker on it.  They also took over full support and warranty from GE for existing customers. 

Here in CT they had some pretty insane rebates 6 years ago on these when I bought mine. They were basically giving them away for free and tons of people were buying them. Mine has been running nonstop in heat pump only mode for 6 years just fine. I know tons of people with them that have had zero issues with them as well. 

https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/article/bradford-white-buys-geospring-rights-and-equipment

You can buy one right now at lowes for $899.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/A-O-Smith-...Water-Heater-with-Hybrid-Heat-Pump/1000213655


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## SpaceBus

How would a HPWH compare to a tank less water heater?


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## Seasoned Oak

SpaceBus said:


> How would a HPWH compare to a tank less water heater?


Id say the HPWH beats the tankless as the only saving from the tankless is no storage losses. Storage losses in modern water heaters is way down,my HPWH only loses a half degree an hour. Plus in HP mode it only uses 550 watts. Less than 2.5 amps.   Electric tankless practically needs the equivalent of  additional electric service as they draw 60 to 80 AMPs . Or almost 20000 watts.


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## SpaceBus

Seasoned Oak said:


> Id say the HPWH beats the tankless as the only saving from the tankless is no storage losses. Storage losses in modern water heaters is way down,my HPWH only loses a half degree an hour. Plus in HP mode it only uses 550 watts. Less than 2.5 amps.   Electric tankless practically needs the equivalent of  additional electric service as they draw 60 to 80 AMPs . Or almost 20000 watts.



In my situation we need to replace an aging 52 gallon resistance heating tank. In the future I would like to install a solar water heater and a cook stove capable of heating domestic water. I didn't realize those tank less heaters were such power hogs, I was under the impression they were much more efficient. Maybe I'll look into HPWH more.


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## Seasoned Oak

SpaceBus said:


> In my situation we need to replace an aging 52 gallon resistance heating tank. In the future I would like to install a solar water heater and a cook stove capable of heating domestic water. I didn't realize those tank less heaters were such power hogs, I was under the impression they were much more efficient. Maybe I'll look into HPWH more.


I have to warn you the recovery time is a bit longer in heat pump only mode .Switching to Hybrid mode fixes that during high use periods but uses more power. You can use the HPWH is one of several different modes,one of which is electric resistance only that uses 4500 watts,but the recovery time is faster of course. if the 52 gallon is barely enough for your domestic HW usage,id go with the 80 gallon HPWH. For me with a family of 4 the 50 Gallon model is fine. When we get company that stays over and takes showers ,i just switch to Hybrid mode.


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## Seasoned Oak

My electric HW bill went from about $35 a month to about $10 a month with the HPWH. So im saving roughly about $300 a year on guessing about my 5th year. I cant even heat my HW that cheap with coal.


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## SpaceBus

Seasoned Oak said:


> I have to warn you the recovery time is a bit longer in heat pump only mode .Switching to Hybrid mode fixes that during high use periods but uses more power. You can use the HPWH is one of several different modes,one of which is electric resistance only that uses 4500 watts,but the recovery time is faster of course. if the 52 gallon is barely enough for your domestic HW usage,id go with the 80 gallon HPWH. For me with a family of 4 the 50 Gallon model is fine. When we get company that stays over and takes showers ,i just switch to Hybrid mode.



The 52 gallons is plenty, the system is just super old. Before we bought this house the home inspector and plumber said the heater is on its way out and a bit rusty. We just figured a tank less would save us a bit on our power bill and take up way less space. I'll have to look into this some more.
As far as typical usage, it's pretty minimal. It's just two adults, no kids, and our dogs. I assumed the minimal use would make the tankless have the advantage, but now I know I don't know much of anything about water heaters.


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## Tegbert

SpaceBus said:


> The 52 gallons is plenty, the system is just super old. Before we bought this house the home inspector and plumber said the heater is on its way out and a bit rusty. We just figured a tank less would save us a bit on our power bill and take up way less space. I'll have to look into this some more.
> As far as typical usage, it's pretty minimal. It's just two adults, no kids, and our dogs. I assumed the minimal use would make the tankless have the advantage, but now I know I don't know much of anything about water heaters.



You should be ok with a 50 gallon. I have a wife and two toddlers. Depends on how long your showers are. If my wife take a shower first and then me I will have lukewarm water with it in heat pump only mode which is fine with me I don’t take hot showers. But anymore than that I have to put it in hybrid before the showers or in high demand.  When the kids are older I will have to probably upgrade to the 80 gallon one. But when I bought this one it was 800. I had a $500 rebate from the electric company and a federal rebate of 2-300 so I basically got it for free and my bill went down about $35 a month too. 

Just a word of caution there is a minimum space requirement for them. 10’x10’x7’ room. If not then you will need to use the ducting kit to draw and vent air from a smaller location. Also the unit are taller than a similar sized tank. Because of that I was limited to the 50 as the 80 wouldn’t fit without major Reno and I needed the water heater now as our broke. Also will need a drain location for the condensate. If no drain is available the a condensate pump can be used. That what I did and works great. 


Lopi Rockport
Blaze King Ashford 25


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## maple1

SpaceBus said:


> In my situation we need to replace an aging 52 gallon resistance heating tank. In the future I would like to install a solar water heater and a cook stove capable of heating domestic water. I didn't realize those tank less heaters were such power hogs, I was under the impression they were much more efficient. Maybe I'll look into HPWH more.



I would not buy a tankless electric heater.

Either heat pump, or a new one of what you already have. We have an 80 gallon tank heater, only costs us about $25/mo to run - with a cheap install to boot, pretty hard to beat.


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## SpaceBus

maple1 said:


> I would not buy a tankless electric heater.
> 
> Either heat pump, or a new one of what you already have. We have an 80 gallon tank heater, only costs us about $25/mo to run - with a cheap install to boot, pretty hard to beat.



Wow, this is a surprise to hear. It seems like due to our space limitations that a conventional might just be the best thing to do. Are newer units any better? I have no idea how old ours is, but it also sat unused for the majority of its life.


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## Brian26

Seasoned Oak said:


> My electric HW bill went from about $35 a month to about $10 a month with the HPWH. So im saving roughly about $300 a year on guessing about my 5th year. I cant even heat my HW that cheap with coal.



Thats about spot on as they have a COP of around 3.5 meaning they are 350% efficient compared to a reg electric tank. Before I had solar panels installed I monitored mine for a few months and it was using around $8-10 a month in power. Thats incredible for a month of hot water.


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## Seasoned Oak

SpaceBus said:


> Wow, this is a surprise to hear. It seems like due to our space limitations that a conventional might just be the best thing to do. Are newer units any better? I have no idea how old ours is, but it also sat unused for the majority of its life.


All depends on the use.More HW needs more KW = more cost to run. 4 people households will generally use twice as much HW and cost twice as much to make, as 2 people HH. If i were to go back to Conventional HW heater id expect my bill to go back to $35 Mo.


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## Seasoned Oak

Check your local rebates ,if you can get a few rebates the price  may be just as low or even lower than a conventional WH. My power company sent me a check for like 3 or $400 when i got mine. Some place they are as good as free with all the rebates.


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## SpaceBus

Our utility room is barely wide enough for the water heater we have, I doubt we could get a HPWH in there. I'm fairly certain our water heater was installed 7/1977. Anything should be better than this.


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## CaptSpiff

So from your photo it looks like the 50 gal tank HWHP might fit fine. They tend to run about an inch wider and 12-18 inches higher. An 80 gal in that area might be a squeeze. What's the normal temp in that utility room, I see you have baseboard under a window?


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## SpaceBus

CaptSpiff said:


> So from your photo it looks like the 50 gal tank HWHP might fit fine. They tend to run about an inch wider and 12-18 inches higher. An 80 gal in that area might be a squeeze. What's the normal temp in that utility room, I see you have baseboard under a window?


We don't use that baseboard heater, but it stays around 60 in there. We may look into the HPWH, we are getting a plumber out here for an estimate in a few weeks.


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## CaptSpiff

SpaceBus said:


> We don't use that baseboard heater, but it stays around 60 in there. We may look into the HPWH, we are getting a plumber out here for an estimate in a few weeks.


That's a good temperature, because the HWHP uses an electrical compressor and the heat from the room air to heat the water. So the room temp needs to be warm enough, which it sounds like it will be. In the summer the HWHP will act like a dehumidifier and pump a bunch of condensate (that's usually a good thing). You'll need to buy a condensate pump for about $50, cause I don't see a sink.


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## SpaceBus

CaptSpiff said:


> That's a good temperature, because the HWHP uses an electrical compressor and the heat from the room air to heat the water. So the room temp needs to be warm enough, which it sounds like it will be. In the summer the HWHP will act like a dehumidifier and pump a bunch of condensate (that's usually a good thing). You'll need to buy a condensate pump for about $50, cause I don't see a sink.



Thanks for the info, I had never heard of such a thing. We will talk to our plumber about it.


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## Brian26

SpaceBus said:


> Our utility room is barely wide enough for the water heater we have, I doubt we could get a HPWH in there. I'm fairly certain our water heater was installed 7/1977. Anything should be better than this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 237511
> View attachment 237512



I posted in the other thread as well. Efficiency Maine has a $750 rebate on heat pump water heaters and you can even self install it. I would be all over this if I were you. A HPWH would fit fine in that area and run 350% more efficient than your current tank. 

https://www.efficiencymaine.com/at-home/heat-pump-water-heater-program/


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## woodgeek

Good info here, but do keep in mind that when I called three plumbers to get my 80 gal HPWH installed 5 years ago, two of them bent my ear at length about how awful they were, one refused to install it, the other said I would be calling him back in a year to take it out, and I would have to pay him twice.

The third guy said sure, did it, and cashed the check.  LOL.


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## SpaceBus

woodgeek said:


> Good info here, but do keep in mind that when I called three plumbers to get my 80 gal HPWH installed 5 years ago, two of them bent my ear at length about how awful they were, one refused to install it, the other said I would be calling him back in a year to take it out, and I would have to pay him twice.
> 
> The third guy said sure, did it, and cashed the check.  LOL.



What don't they like about it.


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## CaptSpiff

SpaceBus said:


> Thank you for the heads up! It will basically make it a free water heater, we will just have to pay the plumber to install it.


Ahh,... no .

They're about $1200 at Lowes, self installed. Expect $1800+ from plumber plus install. But the rebate is after that .

Shopping tip: this HPWH, like many other items, is "regional priced for demand". That means I could drive across the state line and save $100-300. Check the web site and force a new location by entering a different store zip code:
Lowes Maine = $1200
Lowes NY = $1300
Lowes CT = $ 900


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## SpaceBus

CaptSpiff said:


> Ahh,... no .
> 
> They're about $1200 at Lowes, self installed. Expect $1800+ from plumber plus install. But the rebate is after that .
> 
> Shopping tip: this HPWH, like many other items, is "regional priced for demand". That means I could drive across the state line and save $100-300. Check the web site and force a new location by entering a different store zip code:
> Lowes Maine = $1200
> Lowes NY = $1300
> Lowes CT = $ 900



I saw 50 gallon models on home depot, closer than Lowe's, under $500. I doubt we would go for the cheapest HPWH, but there are models under $1,000. We know the rebate will take time to get reimbursed, but that's ok.


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## CaptSpiff

SpaceBus said:


> I saw 50 gallon models on home depot, closer than Lowe's, under $500. I doubt we would go for the cheapest HPWH, but there are models under $1,000. We know the rebate will take time to get reimbursed, but that's ok.


Please check that again. I think you're looking at the traditional electric resistance models.


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## SpaceBus

CaptSpiff said:


> Please check that again. I think you're looking at the traditional electric resistance models.



You are absolutely right, I was mistaken. Still, I think we will get a hybrid heater in a few months. Other home renovations have been gobbling up money.


----------



## Brian26

CaptSpiff said:


> Ahh,... no .
> 
> They're about $1200 at Lowes, self installed. Expect $1800+ from plumber plus install. But the rebate is after that .
> 
> Shopping tip: this HPWH, like many other items, is "regional priced for demand". That means I could drive across the state line and save $100-300. Check the web site and force a new location by entering a different store zip code:
> Lowes Maine = $1200
> Lowes NY = $1300
> Lowes CT = $ 900



The pricing is actually based on instant rebates from each states energy efficiency fund. CT offers the rebate instantly on any HPWH and anyone can drive here and but it and buy it. I tipped off a member here from Long Island that took over the ferry here and saved $700 on one.

The Energy efficient fund in CT Energize CT is flooded with money as everyone pays a surcharge on there gas/electric bill to fund it but few use it. 

I got my Geospring for free from them in addition to a check for 3k for my solar panels. They also did a home energy audit and gave me about 2k in energy efficient upgrades which included sealing all my ductwork and tons of free insulation. Tons of money in the fund but few take advantage of it.


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## SpaceBus

Brian26 said:


> The pricing is actually based on instant rebates from each states energy efficiency fund. CT offers the rebate instantly on any HPWH and anyone can drive here and but it and buy it. I tipped off a member here from Long Island that took over the ferry here and saved $700 on one.
> 
> The Energy efficient fund in CT Energize CT is flooded with money as everyone pays a surcharge on there gas/electric bill to fund it but few use it.
> 
> I got my Geospring for free from them in addition to a check for 3k for my solar panels. They also did a home energy audit and gave me about 2k in energy efficient upgrades which included sealing all my ductwork and tons of free insulation. Tons of money in the fund but few take advantage of it.



So the $1,099 quoted on Home depot is after the rebate? As in without the rebate the price is $1,849? Efficiency Maine has similar programs I've been reading about. Our house has far more damage than the selling agents disclosed, so they will pay for the repairs, eventually. We are exploring our options for repairing the damage. It seems that different programs in Maine offer assistance for this kind of thing, which I think we will take.


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## 3fordasho

Installed mine early 2015, think it's a whirlpool unit from Lowes.  Always in heat pump mode, but there is only two of us. Wood furnace in the same room so there is plenty of excess heat - at least in the heating season.  The dehumidification is nice in the summer.  As far as the plumbers that don't like them, they are more complicated and I found that lowes offered an extended warranty (additional 8 or 9 years) that was priced the same as a conventional water heater, under a hundred bucks.  I installed it myself, really no different then installing a regular electric water heater.  Love it, the energy savings are real and I'd never go back to a conventional water heater.   I think someone asked about tankless, we have a gas fired unit at work, sized about the same as a homeowner type. I think the plumbers have been back to fix it a half a dozen times in the first year or two of use.


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## woodgeek

SpaceBus said:


> What don't they like about it.



Nothing coherent.  Basically said it wouldn't work, it wouldn't save money, and it wouldn't last.


----------

