# Indoor or Outdoor Boiler to Heat Garage?



## dook (Dec 11, 2012)

I'm in the process of designing my next home and trying to figure out how to heat the garage in a manner that will not cause insurance companies to reject me.

I understand that a woodstove in a garage is not kosher, although most rural people around here do just that without problems. There are no codes in this rural Montana county, the only objective is qualifying for insurance.

I've read many threads here about heating garages and NFPA standards  and narrowed things down to this:

It seems that Outdoor wood boilers have a reputation of using MUCH more wood to heat a given area than indoor ones because heat is not radiated inside the structure to be heated. Not knowing much about boilers, it seems to me that if OWB's radiate that much heat, the issue is insulation.

Would it be more efficient to build a super-insulated shack 2 feet from the garage to house an indoor boiler and a couple cords of wood?


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## bupalos (Dec 11, 2012)

If you have space in the garage and that's where you want to put it, I'd shop insurance companies until someone wants the business. I wouldn't say "will you let me have one." I'd say, "I'm putting one in there, do you want to insure me or let the other company do it."

There is little to nothing inherently more dangerous about burning wood in a modern gassifier than having any other type of boiler in there.


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## dook (Dec 11, 2012)

bupalos said:


> If you have space in the garage and that's where you want to put it, I'd shop insurance companies until someone wants the business. I wouldn't say "will you let me have one." I'd say, "I'm putting one in there, do you want to insure me or let the other company do it."


 I wish it were that easy. Getting someone to insure you is difficult. Insurance companies prefer not to insure people with large tracts of land, off-grid homes and log homes. When you fall into all 3 of those categories it's nearly impossible.





> There is little to nothing inherently more dangerous about burning wood in a modern gassifier than having any other type of boiler in there.


As I understand it, gas boilers and oil furnaces are not acceptable in garages either.


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## juanni (Dec 12, 2012)

My solution is to build a home without combustibles and never have to purchase fire insurance.

Think of the money, hassle and frustration of dealing with those insurance companies over a lifetime, that you can eliminate.


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## StihlHead (Dec 12, 2012)

dook said:


> It seems that Outdoor wood boilers have a reputation of using MUCH more wood to heat a given area than indoor ones because heat is not radiated inside the structure to be heated. Not knowing much about boilers, it seems to me that if OWB's radiate that much heat, the issue is insulation.
> 
> Would it be more efficient to build a super-insulated shack 2 feet from the garage to house an indoor boiler and a couple cords of wood?


 

The OWB inefficiency issue is not with the insulation, and insulating them more would have little effect on the amount of wood that you burn. It is the way that they operate that causes them to run inefficiently. They go into starved air smolder mode between fire modes, and that makes charcoal as the wood stays hot and the wood gasses escape. You cannot just add insulation over them, nor do you want to build a shed around them (though I know people that have done that). They come in an insulated housing, usually sheet metal over foam over the boiler steel. The advantage of an OWB is that they can run for a reasonably long time between loading, as they store energy in a smaller water tank in the boiler housing and in the unburned wood. You can also burn any wood in there (wet, green, dry, pithy), and you do not need to split the wood that goes in them. Not having to split wood was a HUGE advantage. Also you do not need a separate water storage tank using them. They can also be installed pretty much anywhere outside and take up no indoor space. You can also split the lines and run multiple pumps to heat various types of things, like garages, hot tubs, DHW, space heaters, greenhouses, hydronic home floor heating and concrete walkways, pools, or whatever. The other advantage is that they are outside, and so the wood, smoke, ash, etc. is all outside, and they do not incur a liability for fire insurance.

Now that said, many states do not allow older style OWBs to be installed and they require newer EPA approved ones only. In your case that is not an issue though, and older OWBs are half the price of newer EPA ones. Newer EPA ones are basically gassifiers, and they require that you burn only well seasoned dry wood. They are more efficient and smoke less, but there is much controversy as to how efficient they are.

I designed and retrofitted a classic style Central Boiler OWB into my ex's house that had an electric hydronic floor heating system and an electric DHW. I used a single loop of 1 inch PEX and ran the line to a hydronic floor bypass loop Hx and then to the DHW Hx. It worked as designed, and basically paid for itself in about 4 years of use. We were also able to keep the house a lot warmer with the OWB than with electricity. It ate about 10 cords of wood a year, but the ex has vast acres of timberland to harvest firewood from, so she has a lifetime supply of firewood for free (well, labor and gas money). Fire insurance was not an issue, as it was detached from the house by a little over 6 feet (all you need in Oregon for fire codes here). We found that loading the boiler half full more times a day (usually twice) was more efficient, as the more wood you put in them the more charcoal is made before it actually burns. Wood gassifiers with a storage tank are more efficient as they burn all the wood at once and store the heat in water. However, they require an insulated storage tank, and they need to be fed dry seasoned wood. There are also many issues with systems like the Greenwood and others with bricks cracking and the like.

We chose the smallest classic CB OWB as a compromise on price, quality, good company reputation, good sales rep, size, fire insurance issues, existing heating systmes to retrofit, availability, and safety. They are open loop systems so if they boil over, that's all they do. Water and steam gush out, the steam takes away the excess heat, and that's it. Nothing else happens in a boil-over. They are UL approved. Yes, they eat wood. No, they do not smoke nearly as much as claimed, and actually they smoke a lot less than a typical pre-EPA wood stove. Usually they only smoke for a few minutes when the damper opens and they go into burn mode. At full fire and in closed damper mode, they hardly smoke, if at all.


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## StihlHead (Dec 12, 2012)

juanni said:


> My solution is to build a home without combustibles and never have to purchase fire insurance.
> 
> Think of the money, hassle and frustration of dealing with those insurance companies over a lifetime, that you can eliminate.


 
If you are going to get a mortgage on your home, it does not work that way. You need fire insurance in order to get a loan. Even if it is built of concrete and steel.


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## juanni (Dec 12, 2012)

StihlHead said:


> If you are going to get a mortgage on your home, it does not work that way. You need fire insurance in order to get a loan. Even if it is built of concrete and steel.


 
No mortgage, cut out the Banksters too.


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## mikefrommaine (Dec 12, 2012)

juanni said:


> No mortgage, cut out the Banksters too.


Got a way to avoid taxes?


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## stee6043 (Dec 12, 2012)

I've been through two insurance companies in the past few years and heating with wood has been little more than the check of a box, a few extra dollars per year and a couple of photos of the wood burner.  I had no idea some folks struggle to get and/or maintain "fire insurance".

Regardless, I'd echo what was stated above.  You won't vastly improve the efficiency of an OWB but hyper-insulating it.  The massive firebox and massive output numbers are why they are inefficient.  They can't help but idle all day long....


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## dook (Dec 12, 2012)

Thanks for the replies. The property will not be financed. I'm not very worried about fire. If it burns down, I'll just rebuilt it. The reason I need insurance is a much more dangerous and expensive hazard.....LAWYERS. I have 185 unfenced acres. In order to get lawyer insurance you have to buy homeowners. No way around it. If not for that, I'd build it as I please, like most everyone else around here and put a homemade woodstove in the shop and burn 3 cords of pine a year.

Thanks for you detailed reply, Stihlhead. The "10 cords a year" part is the hurdle. That's what everyone else has told me about OWB's.  Seven extra cords a year would be the added insurance premium to protect myself against lawyers. What if I got an indoor wood boiler and built an insulated shack around it? How many cords?  There is plenty of beetle-killed dry pine around here and it's not hard to split when it's cold outside. I just don't want to split 10 cords of it to keep a 1600 square foot insulated garage/shop at a tolerable 55 degrees every winter.


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## juanni (Dec 12, 2012)

mikefrommaine said:


> Got a way to avoid taxes?


 
Avoid, no.
Minimize by purchasing property in a low tax state with few "essential services".
Self employed, use every deduction and simply work less, and spend the additional free time saving money by building my own house, repairing my own car etc...


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## maple1 (Dec 12, 2012)

'Lawyer Insurance'?


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## mikefrommaine (Dec 12, 2012)

juanni said:


> Avoid, no.
> Minimize by purchasing property in a low tax state with few "essential services".
> Self employed, use every deduction and simply work less, and spend the additional free time saving money by building my own house, repairing my own car etc...


You sound like me  I did/do all of the above and grow a good portion of our food. My two biggest expenses are property taxes and insurance. Living in Maine I can't do much abut either.


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## StihlHead (Dec 12, 2012)

juanni said:


> No mortgage, cut out the Banksters too.


 
I do not have a mortgage here either, but I have fire insurance. Mainly for liability. O/w someone trips and falls onto your property, and it becomes theirs in civil court. Also if the place does burn down, I get a new house built here.


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## juanni (Dec 12, 2012)

StihlHead said:


> I do not have a mortgage here either, but I have fire insurance. Mainly for liability. O/w someone trips and falls onto your property, and it becomes theirs in civil court. Also if the place does burn down, I get a new house built here.


 
I will have liability insurance, just not fire.


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## juanni (Dec 12, 2012)

mikefrommaine said:


> You sound like me  I did/do all of the above and grow a good portion of our food. My two biggest expenses are property taxes and insurance. Living in Maine I can't do much abut either.


 
I think it is the way to go.  I roughed in garden plot but probably won't have time to work it next spring.

I have had the high paying job in the city and the big house.

Between all the taxes, fees, hassles, adversarial relationships with all the various govt bureaucracies and having to pay someone to do repairs because you don't have the time or place to do it..... it isn't worth it and you don't get ahead.

The last time I registered a car there, I ended up having to go through a long winded VIN inspection process because someone typoed 1 digit on my VIN title wrong.

After I got that straigtened out a week later I get a notice that I owe then ONE dollar more, someone else made an error.  Couldn't just send a personal check, had to be a MO, CC or come in and pay cash.

3 weeks later I got a notice my license was suspended because I didn't have vehicle insurance.
I did, they didn't ask and it was another trip in.


Now I go down to the county courthouse, breeze up to the counter, no nasty clerk, no bulletproof glass, no smog, just a smile, a 2 minute transaction, a thank you and out the door. 
Ahhhhhhhhh..........


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## StihlHead (Dec 12, 2012)

dook said:


> Thanks for the replies. The property will not be financed. I'm not very worried about fire. If it burns down, I'll just rebuilt it. The reason I need insurance is a much more dangerous and expensive hazard.....LAWYERS. I have 185 unfenced acres. In order to get lawyer insurance you have to buy homeowners. No way around it. If not for that, I'd build it as I please, like most everyone else around here and put a homemade woodstove in the shop and burn 3 cords of pine a year.
> 
> Thanks for you detailed reply, Stihlhead. The "10 cords a year" part is the hurdle. That's what everyone else has told me about OWB's. Seven extra cords a year would be the added insurance premium to protect myself against lawyers. What if I got an indoor wood boiler and built an insulated shack around it? How many cords? There is plenty of beetle-killed dry pine around here and it's not hard to split when it's cold outside. I just don't want to split 10 cords of it to keep a 1600 square foot insulated garage/shop at a tolerable 55 degrees every winter.


 
Yes, liability insurance. I have a heavy policy rider on top of my fire insurance here. Costs me an extra $20 a year for $300k in liability insurance. Wood stove here was a non-issue for fire insurance, and I am not sure it costs me a nickle more than w/o it. They did not want to know anything about it, other than that it is there. It is on the original building permit with the house on the county records though.

The OWB does not burn 4x the wood than a super insulated wizz-bang "whatever" system. More like 20%-50% more wood, depending on the model and the size/demand/location/design, etc. They are not as bad as people make them out to be. NY state and New England villinized OWBs for a long time. The EPA OWBs are better, and basically they are wood gassifiers like most indoor boilers but they do not require a separate holding tank. Same design gassifier firebox though. As I said before, you do not need to split cordwood for OWBs. They burn logs. I cut larger rounds into quarters or halves, and whatever size the ex could lift was the maximum. We cut mainly 2' DBH trees and down for feeding the OWB, and usually I cut logs 2-3 foot long by about a foot in diameter, and there were always smaller stuff from limbs and tops. Splits are not required though, and a big reason I was grinning when I saw the OWB in operation at the dealer's house. He was burning 1 foot diameter logs in there, 3 foot long. No problem.

Several issues with indoor boiler systems: they are all EPA controlled and they require holding tanks for heat storage. Insualtion of the boiler is not the issue there either. You are thinking along some lines that are not real aspects of what is going on in wood fired boilers. An super insulated shack does not get you much of anything more tham a simple waterproof single insulated shack for an indoor boiler built away from a building. Insulate the crap out of your house/garage/shop and the holding tank, but not the boiler. The boilers are not where the most heat is being lost. Heating 1600 sq ft of garage space is going to eat wood in any system you get. My ex's house has 2200 sq ft and insulated, but she had 10 skylights and 8 sliding glass doows, and windows galore. That place leaked heat like a sieve. A better designed home would have used half the wood, even in an OWB.

If you want the most efficient system, I would build a Russian fireplace along one wall, or in the center of the shop/garage and have the firebox on an outside wall, facing out. Build a small fire and burn it hot and that's it. It will heat the firebricks and radiate heat for hours. Simple system, no moving parts, no issues with the EPA, outside air supply built into the design, and the wood, bugs, ash and smoke all stay outside, and they are simple systems to operate. Contrary to common opinion, they do not cake up with creosote, as the fire is burned small and hot and fast, so that leads to far less smoke to build up on the inside liners. I have a friend that designs them up near Crater Lake, and he burns 1/2 the wood that he burned using a good indoor stove with his Russian fireplace. They are similar in effect for burning and heating as a wood gassifier. They both burn small hot fires and store the heat that is radiated out for a period of time after burning. Indoor gassifiers are relly spendy though, and water tank storage systems require a lot of plumbing, pumps, valves, feedback systems, and you need a Hx system for distributing the heat. Copper is REALLY forking spendy these days. The EPA OWBs work in similar fashion, but they do not require added holding tanks that the indoor models do (they have a tank in the boiler unit) and they are self-contained. All they need is a slab, or level gravel, or RR tie foundations. I would avoid pressurized systems as well, for many reasons. Lots of debate on that as well, but I have seen heating systems go bad. I believe in KISS...

All of these systems require that you be there to load the firewood. That is the drawback in any wood heating system though. Its not like NG, propane, or electricity.


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## dook (Dec 12, 2012)

StihlHead said:


> If you want the most efficient system, I would build a Russian fireplace along one wall, or in the center of the shop/garage and have the firebox on an outside wall, facing out. Build a small fire and burn it hot and that's it. It will heat the firebricks and radiate heat for hours. Simple system, no moving parts, no issues with the EPA


And no liability insurance either.

I currently heat my 1400 square foot well insulated home to 73 degrees f with 3 cords a year using an ordinary woodstove. It seems I should be able to heat a 1600' insulated shop to 55 degrees with about the same 3 cords. But the problem seems to be that if I want lawyer (liability) insurance I have to add 7 more cords a year to the equation.

My current off grid home is heated by a woodstove and sits on 200 acres. It took me several weeks of searching to find an insurer and homeowners insurance costs me $1350 a year.
I paid over 20K in car, home and boat insurance to State Farm over the last 2 decades. I had them come out and evaluate my home for homeowners insurance and they called me the next day and said "NO". They refused to give a reason. My neighbors have a similar home, but it's a log home. They told me they were dropped after several years of no claims simply because the insurer was no longer insuring log homes.

Methinks our rulers want the human cattle herded into the cities where "one third of our subjects will keep the rest under observation".


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## flyingcow (Dec 12, 2012)

Most indoor gassers do not need storage, mine does, but all do not.. My indoor unit is next door in my garage. My wood is in there also.

The new EPA compliant OWB's are not as efficient as a true gasser, with the exception of Econoburn or Portage and Main. But my neighbor has an E-Classic EPA compliant OWB. It has a second chamber, burns a bit cleaner than the old Classics' but not by much.

A good rule of thumb if you're burning oil.
        1 cord of seasoned wood= 100 gals of oil in a E-Classic.(this was info given to me by the salesman)
        1 cord of seasoned wood=150 to 175 gals of oil. That info was given to me by this forum. And I have found it to be true.

A true gasser doesn't smoke, majority of OWb's do. Thats why they were "vilified" in most semi urban areas.

You're in the country, smoking out neighbors is not a biggie.

Sounds like you've got a tight house you're living in. 3 cord? Seems like if you're that meticulous about building, you're shop won't need much either. Maybe another 3 cord? An OWb or gasser will run you into what?.......10/15,000 bucks? E-Classic's are pushing $12,000. Eko's maybe $5000? Vigas w/Lambda $7,000 or less? Plus DIY storage for maybe $3,000 max?


Oh yaeh...just for kicks look at a GARN. Don't be intimidated cause it's the size of a mini-sub. Take a look.


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## StihlHead (Dec 12, 2012)

dook said:


> And no liability insurance either.
> 
> I currently heat my 1400 square foot well insulated home to 73 degrees f with 3 cords a year using an ordinary woodstove. It seems I should be able to heat a 1600' insulated shop to 55 degrees with about the same 3 cords. But the problem seems to be that if I want lawyer (liability) insurance I have to add 7 more cords a year to the equation.
> 
> ...


 
Wow. I have a dubba wyde on an acre with a wood stove w/o the manf. plate on it. I have 'valuation insurance' for $50k replacement value as it has accessory buildings: detached shop and garage, attached cabana in back, covered porches, and a well house. Its only about $400 a year. Truck insurance is another $400 a year. Medical insurance is the big one... $250 a month. But I beat cancer a few years back and that cost them more than I have paid or will likely pay in insurance fees. I dunno why you cannot get house insurance though. Is it built on skids or something? This trailer is just sitting on concrete blocks. No one ever came to look at it. Its through Farmers (USAA will not cover HUD homes).

200 acres is a lot of land. My ex has land that size, and it was a chore to manage it all. In my experience, it is about 190 ares too many for my likes. 

3 cords of wood is good for Montana. I doubt that anything would burn much less than that. Well insulated is the key. I keep this std. insulated metal box about 68 degrees but burn into July with all the rain we get here. I burn about 3 cords as well, mostly hardwood and doug fir that has the same or better heat. This year I am only though a half cord though, it has been warm up until recently.


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## dook (Dec 12, 2012)

So, what's the difference between indoor and outdoor boilers other than where they're designed to be located? Are indoor boilers more efficient and less expensive? I'm thinking of putting an indoor boiler in a shack a couple feet from the garage.

I think one reason my insurance is so expensive is it would take 45 minutes for a fire truck to climb up my driveway, but I'm not certain my current carrier knows that my house is 1300' elevation above my mailbox. The other is liability on the acres.


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## kopeck (Dec 13, 2012)

dook said:


> So, what's the difference between indoor and outdoor boilers other than where they're designed to be located? Are indoor boilers more efficient and less expensive? I'm thinking of putting an indoor boiler in a shack a couple feet from the garage.
> 
> I think one reason my insurance is so expensive is it would take 45 minutes for a fire truck to climb up my driveway, but I'm not certain my current carrier knows that my house is 1300' elevation above my mailbox. The other is liability on the acres.


 
The big difference is you are not loosing heat between the boiler and your house.  Those underground runs bleed some heat no matter how well they're insulated.  Now if you put yours in a shed then yes, you will be in the same boat in that respect.

The indoor models are more refined.  From what I've read the new gasification OWB use secondary combustion more for smoke control then efficiency.

You also loose all of the heat radiating from the boiler when it's sitting outside.

It's really all about what you want.  If you don't want the mess in side and you are willing to burn more wood and walk out side in unpleasant weather to feed the boiler then it should work for you.  I like being able to load my boiler with out getting bundled up, I don't mind the bit of a mess storing the wood inside causes and I really do like the idea of burning less wood.

Each has their place, it's a life style thing really.

K


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## goosegunner (Dec 13, 2012)

OWB companies must have some miracle insulation.  Temperature differential, something with 2" of spray foam sitting outside when it's -10 is going to lose more heat than if it is sitting in a heated space. 

gg


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## StihlHead (Dec 13, 2012)

kopeck said:


> The big difference is you are not loosing heat between the boiler and your house. Those underground runs bleed some heat no matter how well they're insulated. Now if you put yours in a shed then yes, you will be in the same boat in that respect
> 
> The indoor models are more refined. From what I've read the new gasification OWB use secondary combustion more for smoke control then efficiency..


 
Pretty meaningless in the grand scheme of things. Heat losses are small from insulation and loss vs indoor boiler compared to differences in efficiency of the two types of boilers. The main driver of indoor vs outdoor boilers has been that the EPA has had control of wood burning appliances INSIDE and hence they are mostly cleaner burning wood gassifiers. OWBs have been exempt, and thus are typically less efficient and tend to smoke more (not all of them do though).



kopeck said:


> You also loose all of the heat radiating from the boiler when it's sitting outside...


 
If you keep the distance short, this becomes a non-issue. If you bury and insulate them they will not lose much heat. Expose the Pex to ground water and you will lose a ton of heat. All depends on the install. This issue would be the same with an indoor boiler put in a shed away from the garage/shop. OP issues is that he is trying to get around the insurance issue of having a woodburning appliance in the garage.

Having an OWB for about 3 years loading it outside was also a non-issue. I located our's the edge of the garage eves, so the trek was covered. Going outside and getting in touch with reality was actually a good thing. Especially being cooped up with cabin feaver this time of year.


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## BoilerMan (Dec 13, 2012)

It's funny I was just on the phone talking to someone about all these things.  Indoor vs. outdoor, gasser vs. conventional. 

To answer some questions and to highlight some post on here.

Indoor vs. outdoor is different than conventional vs. gasser.
OWB are usually conventional as Stihlhead sescribed and can be _somewhat_ clean/efficient if operated with some brains.  However they are not and never will be as efficient as even an indoor conventional wood boiler, due to heat loss in underground and lost heat through the jacket and lost heat from the chimney that would otherwise be inside the building envelope.
Outdoor gassers are better, but still suffer from the same as above.

A boiler shed installation, is (on here) an indoor gasser installed in some type of building usually with wood storage in it, there is still underground line loss and expense if this building is not attached to the home.  All wood and mess is outside, no lost floor space from the boiler itself or wood storage, added expense of building the shed and underground lines (if needed).

An indoor boiler is inherrantly the most efficient due to all losses are inside the building envelope, but so is the wood and associated mess. 

An indoor gasser is the most efficient, and with storage the most convientent also. 

All boiler installations indoor or outdoor will be easier to operate with storage, unless the boiler design incorporates storage (most OWB, Garn etc.).

There are alot of variables here, and confusion from people whe think all OWB are smoke dragons (most are, but not all)  Also there are two types of boilers, gassifier and conventional (referred to as 'smoke dragon').  I've owned and operated a smoke dragon and gassifier (both indoor installations).  I operated my SD well, and it did make quite a bit of smoke, or what most would consider normal for someone burns wood.  I have a gasser now and can tell you there is NO smoke (only at startup for <5 min.) and it makes way more heat for the same amount of wood I load.

If you burn wood, it should be dry.  If you don't season your wood, then you reap what you sow.  Water doesn't burn and has to be boiler out of the wood before it can produce any heat to heat your building THIS IS THE TRUTH!

TS


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## BoilerMan (Dec 13, 2012)

StihlHead said:


> Pretty meaningless in the grand scheme of things. Heat losses are small from insulation and loss vs indoor boiler compared to differences in efficiency of the two types of boilers. The main driver of indoor vs outdoor boilers has been that the EPA has had control of wood burning appliances INSIDE and hence they are mostly cleaner burning wood gassifiers. OWBs have been exempt, and thus are typically less efficient and tend to smoke more (not all of them do though).


 
All wood boilers are exempt from EPA standards, as they are solid fuel centeral heating appliances.

Stoves on the other hand are supplementary, and therefore subject to EPA.

Trust me, we are on the same page about regulation of pretty much all things.......... The EPA has killed lots of things, but we won't go there in here.

EPA wood stoves are however, a good thing IMO, less wood=more heat. I own one, and had an air tight before. EPA stove (Quadrafire 4300) the glass stays clean, and I havn't had to clean the chimney in 3 years! And I do everything myself, built house, clean chimneys, pipe, wire, engine repair, timeing belts, ASE master mechanic, just for some credibility. Trust me I don't like the EPA or most gov't for that matter, as I've seen what it does to our cars, and no I'm not a carburator guy.

Sorry about the rant, but had to say that, as all of us have no real way of knowing where each other are coming from.

TS


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## StihlHead (Dec 14, 2012)

Taylor Sutherland said:


> An indoor boiler is inherrantly the most efficient due to all losses are inside the building envelope, but so is the wood and associated mess.
> 
> An indoor gasser is the most efficient, and with storage the most convientent also.


 
Well, I would argue that the boiler location is not the main factor in burning efficiency, and starved air systems in typical conventional OWBs are a far greater cause of lost energy (compared to a gassifier) than radiant heat from the firebox/boiler itself and line losses (if the lines are installed correctly). I measured OWB line losses extensively with temp gauges at both ends, and the heat loss was minor, usually 1-3 degrees. I would also argue that any non-gasser stove can become a lot more inefficient if they are stuffed full of wood and then damped down. In these cases, wood stoves just become charcoal makers and the unburned wood gasses escape up the flue. Cat and 2ndary EPA stoves try to not allow this to happen, but if temps go low on either one, the wood gasses escape unburned and the efficiency drops. That is the real advantage of a gasser or Russian firebox. Burn hot and fast, and store the heat someplace else.

Which brings up another point about OWBs vs. indoor gasser/boiler units inside a building, or inside super-insulated building outside: unless you have an OAK you are drawing a lot of heated air into the boiler and up the flue. A super-tightly insulated out building with an indoor gasser in it (a design the OP is considering here) will either starve for air to feed the boiler, and/or it will draw air into the firebox from the heated area of the building unless there is an OAK of some type installed. So the insulating effects are diminished. Similar to an inside boiler unit or stove w/o an OAK. Heated air is going to feed the fire and head up the flue. Lost energy there. The typical OWB air source is another aspect for the OAK debate that people against OAKs bring up all the time: that they do not want super cold air feeding their fireboxes (in any type of wood burning appliance). The thought is that cold air prevents effective burning or reduces boiler/stove efficiency. All OWBs draw air directly from the great outdoors, and they burn just fine.

My background is several fold here. I have designed and installed and used many wood burning appliance, solar systems (passive, active, and electrical) and alternative energy systems. I also have a couple of college and university degrees in engineering and have been educated in thermodynamics and heat transfer. I also have an interest in energy and staying warm in winter.


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## dook (Dec 14, 2012)

Thanks for the info, Stihlhead. Forgive my ignorance, but what does OAK stand for? Outside air something?   My thinking is that a boiler in a super insulated shack benefits from being able to use that pre-heated room air for combustion, raising burn temps and getting more BTU per cord than you would if cold outside air were entering the firebox.

Since the application is a garage/shop, wide temp swings are tolerable and I think I would opt for storage and faster,hotter burns.

An older used inefficient boiler used that way might be a better value, the saved money being spent on insulation of the building.
Also, I was thinking that a used inefficient boiler would be less likely to be severely damaged by it's own heat than an efficient used one.


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## StihlHead (Dec 14, 2012)

OAK = Outside Air Kit

Typically a 4 inch air supply from the outside or underside of the house to feed a wood stove or fireplace insert. Required on all HUD homes in the US (manf. or mobile) and for all wood burning appliances in many WA state counties. Much much much debate about them on this site and others, their effectiveness, and new codes requiring them.

As for burning pre-heated air... the energy has to come from someplace to heat that air, and that is from the boiler or the air in your house or wherever the boiler is. In other words, the heated air is not free for the taking. It has to be heated... That may or may not be offset by the radiant heat of the device heating the ambient air that is then robbed by the firebox. I think it would likely not be offset, and it would depend on a lot of factors in the overall system. Any small boiler shack would rapidly use its warm air supply through the air intake damper, and that heat would be lost up the flue. I was reading this afternoon that the EPA has determined that any stove, with or w/o an oak that has new wood put into it that is not run with the damper wide open for about 15 minutes will become far less effective in efficiency and throw out far more particles of smoke during that time. With damper open for 15 minutes that sucks up a lot of ambient air and heat if you are sourcing it from inside a structure. I happen to be a big believer in the benefits of using an OAK, and I have them on my stoves here (I am in a HUD home, and they are required, but I would have added them anyway).

Temp swings are not going to happen in any heated area if you have a t-stat controlled system in any of these options, as long as the boilers/stoves are fed a supply of wood. Typically an OWB hydronic loop is kept at 165 to 185 degrees, and the damper opens when the boiler gets to 165, and closes when it is at 185. They can be set to open and close at lower or higher temps, this is just a typical example of an open system that has a max of 212, the boiling point of water at sea level. Pressurized systems run different and they can run on steam loops, which are at higher temps. That is just the boiler loop temp though. The inside house or shop temp is set by a thermostat, and whatever secondary system that you have attached to the Hx will come on or go off by that setting and not vary because of boiler temp. In a passive DHW Hx, the placement of the Hx will drive a convection water heating loop as long as the Hx is hotter than the water in the DHW. When the temps are equal, the convention loops shuts itself off. As an aside, I do not know of any wood burning system that claims that it is more effective or efficient because it draws on a warm air supply. Great debates, but no facts that I am aware of.

Used boilers are likely going to fail or last a long time based on the way that they are welded, the type of thickness of steel used, and the age of the system. It will also depend on if the boiler water was treated right with an anti-corrosive in an open loop system, and if they were banged up in shipping and the like. I happen to be a fan of thicker plain steel over stainless steel (SS), as they can be repaired far more easily, plain steel is more ductile that SS, and it transfers heat better than SS. SS tends to get brittle, and is very hard to weld in the field. You can get an older style classic Central Boiler new for half what an EPA one costs. $5k last I looked. Some people do not like these boilers, and there is always someone that either installed them or is using them wrong, or does not like the higher OWB wood consumption, etc. and is ranting about them and wanting to sell them. There are many fly-by-night OWB companies out there though, and I would avoid them. Stick with the better brands, like Woodmaster, CB, Wood Dr, Heatmore, etc. if you go with an OWB. With the gassers, Garn, Tarn, Greenwood and some others have been out there a while. Avoid homemade boilers like the plague. I would also avoid pressurized systems, but that's me. You open another can of worms with those systems as compared to open ones.


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## Floydian (Dec 14, 2012)

StihlHead said:


> Well, I would argue that the boiler location is not the main factor in burning efficiency, and starved air systems in typical conventional OWBs are a far greater cause of lost energy (compared to a gassifier) than radiant heat from the firebox/boiler itself and line losses (if the lines are installed correctly). I measured OWB line losses extensively with temp gauges at both ends, and the heat loss was minor, usually 1-3 degrees


 
IMO, standby heat loss from ANY outdoor boiler, gasser or not, should not be underestimated. All forms of heat transfer get in on the action, 24/7 for however many days a year. I'd be surprised if the avg OWB was losing anything less than 2000 btu/hr. Heck, 4 or 5,000 btu/hr seems well within the realm of possibility. That could equal half a cord or more per year just in standby losses of the boiler itself.

Now let's look at underground losses. A 3 degree loss in underground transit would be completely unacceptable to me. Let's say someone is pumping 8 gpm x 500 x 3T=12,000 btu/hr!
Truly epic losses when figured over an entire heating season.

Imagine burning 2 or 3 cords/yr just in transmission and standby losses

Crunch the numbers people!

Noah


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## dook (Dec 14, 2012)

Thanks, Stihlhead.
In a system like that I think I'd set the temps very wide and fill the firebox once a day. I would consider the hydronic slab to be a "storage system". A 1600 sq.ft. slab 6 or 7 inches thick with 2" foam underneath will stabilize the temp swings somewhat. 24 hours later when I fill the firebox again, it will have to run wide open for quite a while to heat the slab and the storage tank....or so I assume. Would a 100,000 to 150,000 BTU boiler be about right for a well insulated 1600' garage with 3 insulated overhead doors and 3 man doors, and a few triple insulated fixed acrylic windows on the southern exposure? Outside temps will average low 20's f and inside temps 40 to 60. When it goes sub zero I could fill several times a day.

Many modern woodstoves are designed to use firebox temps to preheat the combustion air by routing ducts inside before they feed airwash and secondary nozzles. I assumed the same theory would apply to a boiler in an insulated shack.


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## Fred61 (Dec 14, 2012)

Temperature and comfort temperature are two different things. First, I feel 60 degrees is about as warm as I would want a shop unless you're sitting at a bench populating circuit boards or the like. If it's a mechanical or woodworking shop 60 would be tops. But even if it's colder and you have heat rising and coming into your body you're going to feel comfortable at a lower temperature. When the temperature is at 60 and the space starts cooling and heat is leaving your body you will immediately start to feel cold.


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## EffectaBoilerUser (USA) (Dec 14, 2012)

I live in Michigan and although I am not  a professional plumber, it is my understanding that if a wood boiler is placed in a garage that the boiler must be in a "boiler room" so as to be accessible only from an outside entrance. Thus, you must not be able to enter the boiler room when in the garage.

I think this is code in more than just Michigan.

However, what I have seen done is to place the boiler in this type of room (even a lean too style room off the garage) but have the storage in the garage itself. By doing so, any heat loss from the tank would go into heating the garage.

Because of the popularity of he outdoor wood stove, it seems like we have just become used to having central heating systems outside.

Having owed and operated my Effecta Lambda indoor wood gasification boiler for 3 years, I would never entertain the idea of having a boiler outside. It is so nice to be able to fill the boiler once per day with 100 lbs of wood without having to go outside.

Another reason I think so many like to have the wood boiler outdoors is that traditional wood boilers created a lot of creosote. However, I have been operating my Effecta Lambda boiler for 3 years now and have never cleaned my chimney. These is absolutely no creosote in the chimney-the only thing in the chimney is very dry ash!


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## dook (Dec 14, 2012)

EffectaBoilerUser (USA) said:


> I live in Michigan and although I am not a professional plumber, it is my understanding that if a wood boiler is placed in a garage that the boiler must be in a "boiler room" so as to be accessible only from an outside entrance. Thus, you must not be able to enter the boiler room when in the garage.
> 
> I think this is code in more than just Michigan.
> 
> However, what I have seen done is to place the boiler in this type of room (even a lean too style room off the garage) but have the storage in the garage itself. By doing so, any heat loss from the tank would go into heating the garage.


That seems like very good advice.

I've looked at some of the boiler manufacturers websites and it seems that boilers are both very large and very expensive. Paying $7000 plus storage plus hydronics just to do what I could do with a used $200 woodstove (and less wood) just so I can have liability sure is a bitter pill to swallow.


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## maple1 (Dec 14, 2012)

You can get into a gassifying boiler for less than $5000 (just the boiler that is).


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## EffectaBoilerUser (USA) (Dec 14, 2012)

If your goal is to heat only one room/garage and you have no plans for future heat loads its tough to beat a decent wood stove.


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## dook (Dec 14, 2012)

EffectaBoilerUser (USA) said:


> If your goal is to heat only one room/garage and you have no plans for future heat loads its tough to beat a decent wood stove.


I agree, but try getting insurance.


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## Como (Dec 15, 2012)

How big is the house and what will the load be?

How often are you going to be in the garage?


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## StihlHead (Dec 15, 2012)

Hmmm... well, interesting issues. We can debate the line loss and radiant heat loss issue all we want, but that takes the thread off on a tangent. The OP here has a dilemma. He cannot have a wood heating device located in the shop/garage, as that wood mean he cannot get insurance on the shop/garage. So he cannot buy a cheap stove and put it in there. He cannot build a fireplace or a fancy Russian fireplace in there either. He cannot put a gassifier in there, or any other type of wood boiler. The storage tank and a hydronic floor heating system can go in the shop/garage, yes, but the boiler, no. So that leaves him with a wood burning appliance that is detached from the shop/garage. So he has a choice of a classic or newer EPA gassifier OWB in its own unit, or an indoor wood gassifier or other type of indoor wood boiler placed in a shed not attached to the shop/garage, which would basically boil down to being an OWB. If it is like Oregon in Montana, that means a minimum of 6 feet away from the building for fire code (and making the insurance co. happy).

He is not heating the house with the device... just the shop/garage. He is stuck with line losses and radiant losses of an OWB, regardless.


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## StihlHead (Dec 15, 2012)

maple1 said:


> You can get into a gassifying boiler for less than $5000 (just the boiler that is).


 
Name/brand? Cost?

Smallest new 4030 Classic non-EPA Central Boiler (should be more than enough to heat his 1600 sq ft shop) unit is $5500. All you need on top of that are the brass fittings and valves, the Pex lines, insulation and corrugated drain pipe or thermoPex to run underground, a mixing valve and/or a flat plate Hx, A Taco pump or two, the flooring Pex, and 120 V. wiring to the OWB and inside pump if you have one, as well as a foundation of rock and/or concrete.

Here are several used CBs for sale in the Midwest for as low as $3,000:

http://for-sale.yakaz.com/used-central-boilers-for-sale


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## StihlHead (Dec 15, 2012)

Floydian said:


> IMO, standby heat loss from ANY outdoor boiler, gasser or not, should not be underestimated. All forms of heat transfer get in on the action, 24/7 for however many days a year. I'd be surprised if the avg OWB was losing anything less than 2000 btu/hr. Heck, 4 or 5,000 btu/hr seems well within the realm of possibility. That could equal half a cord or more per year just in standby losses of the boiler itself.
> 
> Now let's look at underground losses. A 3 degree loss in underground transit would be completely unacceptable to me. Let's say someone is pumping 8 gpm x 500 x 3T=12,000 btu/hr!
> Truly epic losses when figured over an entire heating season.
> ...


 
Amusing... but my mistake, my notes (I have not lived there for over 4 years now) are actually unmeasurable to 1/3 of a degree (not 3 degrees). ThermoPex claims less than 1 degree loss per 100 ft of line. My ex's boiler lines are about 50 ft, from the Hx in the house, but only 10 feet are in the ground, the rest of the run is in a well insulated attic of the garage. Line losses were far less than a degree on average.

I would guess that a half cord a season went into thermo losses of my ex's OWB (radiant heat and line losses). We burned 10 cords on average of mixed species wood, mostly fir, oak, alder and maple. So a 5% loss is not unreasonable, and hardly epic. Cords are highly variable in heat value though. A tight stacked cord of dry madrone has far more heat value than a loose stack of damp green cottonwood. However, I bet that one or two cords went up the flue in unburned wood gasses when the OWB is in off mode making charcoal. Its the nature of the OWB, and that is where the epic losses are in them (of you want to use that term). She has an unlimited supply of firewood though, so it did not really matter. The offset cost in electricity saved paid for the system in 4 years of service, inefficient as it is. Burning 1-2 cords less in a gasser would be about right, and another one cords less in an inside gasser would be about right as well. Give or take, rough order estimates. My ex's place had no room for an indoor gassifier or for water storage tanks. It also had no room for a Russian fireplace. It was already plumbed with a PEX hydronic floor heating loop. The layout of the house (sprawling single level ranch home) did not lend itself to using an inside wood burning appliance. So we opted for the OWB, and were happy with the results, inefficient as they are. Sometimes efficiency is not the bottom line, as it seems to be with everyone here. Cost is usually a big issue, as are the requirements and limitations for the heating device being designed.


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## dook (Dec 15, 2012)

Como said:


> How big is the house and what will the load be?
> 
> How often are you going to be in the garage?


The house will not be heated by the boiler. Just the garage previously described. I would probably spend less than 20 hours a week in it but want to keep the contents from freezing and keep the dogs comfortable. They don't live in the house.


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## maple1 (Dec 15, 2012)

StihlHead said:


> Name/brand? Cost?
> 
> Smallest new 4030 Classic non-EPA Central Boiler (should be more than enough to heat his 1600 sq ft shop) unit is $5500. All you need on top of that are the brass fittings and valves, the Pex lines, insulation and corrugated drain pipe or thermoPex to run underground, a mixing valve and/or a flat plate Hx, A Taco pump or two, the flooring Pex, and 120 V. wiring to the OWB and inside pump if you have one, as well as a foundation of rock and/or concrete.
> 
> ...


 
Make that less than $4000

http://www.newhorizonstore.com/Products/88-eko-gasification-boiler.aspx


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## maple1 (Dec 15, 2012)

dook said:


> I'm in the process of designing my next home and trying to figure out how to heat the garage in a manner that will not cause insurance companies to reject me.
> 
> I understand that a woodstove in a garage is not kosher, although most rural people around here do just that without problems. There are no codes in this rural Montana county, the only objective is qualifying for insurance.
> 
> ...


 
So how will you be heating your house?


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## dook (Dec 15, 2012)

StihlHead said:


> Smallest new 4030 Classic non-EPA Central Boiler (should be more than enough to heat his 1600 sq ft shop) unit is $5500.


 http://centralboiler.com/models.php Looking at the cutaway view of that boiler...it seems like it would be easy to build one, with a flat top (maybe fins) and deflector plate in the back to re-route exhaust and an extra large door to facilitate construction. I like your ideas about using heavy steel instead of stainless. I can't weld stainless well enough not to have leaks.

Looks like $1100 in steel if 5/16 is used.


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## dook (Dec 15, 2012)

maple1 said:


> So how will you be heating your house?


Woodstove and a mass of rockwork around it. A living room without a fireplace or woodstove just ain't right, especially in a log home. I like to be able to see the fire. I have a woodstove in my current home and love it. I easily maintain 73-74 degrees with about 3 cords a year. In sub-zero spells it might drop to 68 in the morning.
There is only one reason I can't have a woodstove in the garage....lawyers. I don't even want fire insurance, just need the liability.


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## maple1 (Dec 15, 2012)

I was just wondering as, if you were thinking about using some sort of outdoor or 'self-enclosed' wood burning device to heat the shop - why not also consider running a couple of lines to the house & heat  or help heat that also? You could also use it to heat your DHW. You could still have the stove in the livingroom - but using the outdoor unit as much as you could in the house too would reduce stove wood consumption a lot, and supplement your DHW heating (also not sure how you're heating your DHW though?). Think maximization of investment, I guess.


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## dook (Dec 15, 2012)

maple1 said:


> You could still have the stove in the livingroom - but using the outdoor unit as much as you could in the house too would reduce stove wood consumption a lot,


As I understand it, the opposite would be true. I would use less wood heating with the indoor woodstove than the OWB. If the house was going to be on a slab, it might be worth it to keep the slab warm, but it will be a crawl space and stem wall design.

I had considered DHW, but I live alone and don't use enough to justify piping it that far just for winter use.


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## StihlHead (Dec 15, 2012)

dook said:


> http://centralboiler.com/models.php Looking at the cutaway view of that boiler...it seems like it would be easy to build one, with a flat top (maybe fins) and deflector plate in the back to re-route exhaust and an extra large door to facilitate construction. I like your ideas about using heavy steel instead of stainless. I can't weld stainless well enough not to have leaks.
> 
> Looks like $1100 in steel if 5/16 is used.


 
If you have your own fab shop you could make one, great. Many home made OWBs and many OWB companies have failed for subtle reason though. The boilers and/or fireboxes crack or the welds fail and they leak over time. You also need a feedback controller and solenoid unit for the damper and a tight fitting door. I have the supplier for the control modules that CB uses someplace. They are cheaper there (about 1/3 the price) than CB. You also need a good 12' plus stainless flue and cap (most OWBs have really short flues, and that is not good), and a stand and stuff like that. Boilers are not that easy to make tight to last, but... if you are good at welding and steel fab work, go for it. I would use as thick a steel plate as you can manage. Thicker is better. You also need to have an anti-corrosive in the boiler water to keep the steel from rusting out. CB has about the best stuff on the market for that (as tested by some of my chemist buddies that have CBs). Inside the firebox rust is not an issue, as creosote does not corrode steel that much, but it can trap water that can. You could build the unit on a tube frame on a slab inside an well insulated out building and forget all the trim. Basically a firebox with a boiler around it, a door, a damper someplace for air intake that flaps closed to control the burn, secondary injection air ports off the damper feeding steel pipes at the top with holes drilled into them making EPA wood stove secondary burners to improve efficiency. You could plumb in one or two in/out threaded ports for water flow. The smaller CBs have a pair of each for two separate hydronic systems.

The baffles at the top of the CB classic fireboxes are designed to trap and burn more wood gasses at the top of the boiler, but I would imagine that they are a PITA to fabricate. You could use a flat top boiler with the drilled pipe air injectors like the typical EPA wood stove instead. Use 3/4 inch threaded pipe for that and it would be easy. You could make the boiler jacket/tank as large as you need, but for this application I would imagine that you do not need much more than 150 gallons.

Yes, I can hear the people in New England and New York screaming from my yard about building a home made OWB, 3,000 miles away...


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## dook (Dec 15, 2012)

Thanks, Stihlhead,
If I can't find a good used boiler when I get ready to do this, I just might go that route. When you say I shouldn't need more than 150 gallons, do you mean not including a storage tank?


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## Floydian (Dec 15, 2012)

Hi dook,

Will the garage be off grid? Will it have a good potential for passive solar gain? You mentioned triple pane acrylic windows on the south side of the building-Do these have a high solar heat gain coefficient?

If grid tied, what is your Kwh rate?

Noah


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## dook (Dec 15, 2012)

The garage and house will be off grid solar PV with backup generator. There isn't much sunshine in Western Montana in the winter, I'm still evaluating the feasibility of passive solar heat, but so far it doesn't look good. Maybe 30 or 40 hours a month sunshine Dec thru Feb.
At my current place, I made shop windows by taking a 4' x 8' x 1/8" clear acrylic sheet and cutting it in 3 equal pieces 1" space in between to make a triple pane window . Works a lot better than glass windows but may not last as long.


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## StihlHead (Dec 16, 2012)

dook said:


> Thanks, Stihlhead,
> If I can't find a good used boiler when I get ready to do this, I just might go that route. When you say I shouldn't need more than 150 gallons, do you mean not including a storage tank?


 
Yes. Most OWBs have water storage in the boiler itself, and typically it is above the firebox. One advantage (or disadvantage, depending on how you look at them) is that the typical OWB does not require a separate water storage tank. The indoor Eko gasser that was priced above requires a separate water storage tank (Eko sells a 490 gallon steel tank for $3k). The CB priced above does not need a separate water storage tank and it holds 150 gallons in the boiler. There are a variety of designs for these systems though. Many types of gasifiers and OWBs have a water tank local to the boiler and a copper coil loop inside filled with a separate water supply loop to/from the area being heated. The CBs do not have a copper coil in them and the boiler water is cycled through the outside loop. They can be set up to either pump the boiler water to heat a separate hydronic floor loop through a Hx, or they can be set up to pump the boiler water directly into the hydronic floor loop using a mixing valve to temper the heat.


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## maple1 (Dec 16, 2012)

I'm pretty sure the Ekos are being run without storage by some people, and used propane tanks make very economical storage in various sizes. Attacks are also quite economical, not much more than the Ekos, and they are also being run without storage.

I'll defer to Eko & Attack owners though if they want to chime in...


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## flyingcow (Dec 16, 2012)

Tarm, econoburn,vigas, woodgun,Eko,etc. _There are a lot of units that don't need storage when they burn._ Some specific units require storage, *but I think most do not.* Storage is more for convince than anything else. Helps efficiency a few % points. It's all a learning curve as how to burn properly, no mater what you have for a boiler.


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## goosegunner (Dec 16, 2012)

StihlHead said:


> Yes. Most OWBs have water storage in the boiler itself, and typically it is above the firebox. One advantage (or disadvantage, depending on how you look at them) is that the typical OWB does not require a separate water storage tank. The indoor Eko gasser that was priced above requires a separate water storage tank (Eko sells a 490 gallon steel tank for $3k). The CB priced above does not need a separate water storage tank and it holds 150 gallons in the boiler. There are a variety of designs for these systems though. Many types of gasifiers and OWBs have a water tank local to the boiler and a copper coil loop inside filled with a separate water supply loop to/from the area being heated. The CBs do not have a copper coil in them and the boiler water is cycled through the outside loop. They can be set up to either pump the boiler water to heat a separate hydronic floor loop through a Hx, or they can be set up to pump the boiler water directly into the hydronic floor loop using a mixing valve to temper the heat.




You wouldn't happen to sell OWB's would you?  Seems like most of your postings are written to tell how great they are compared to indoor boilers. With a lot of miss information about how indoor boilers function.

I ran my Econoburn without storage for the first year. It worked well during the bulk of the winter. I would load with amount of wood I needed and it will idle on and off. During the shoulder season creosote will build more easily.

I now run with storage. I can run it in the summer the same as the winter. It burns everything to a fine ash, creosote is not an issue. I use it to heat my pool in the summer, it burns smoke free.  

I had a Taylor 450 OWB. It was fine but smoked a lot except when down to coals. It was embarrassing the amount of smoke it would produce at times in the sky. Did not bother distant neighbors but I did not like it.  The country side here has many owb's. The valleys many times will have a nice blue smoke haze, brand does not seem to matter.

gg


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## StihlHead (Dec 16, 2012)

Why is it here that any time I post ANYTHING about ANYTHING, everyone thinks I am a salesman or somehow involved in the products I post about here? Be is a chainsaw, a BBQ grill, OWB, or whatever? I mean, what is it with you people that everything and anything is somehow construed to be a giant conspiracy??? I am NOT a salesman for any type of OWB, or wood heating appliance. I do not even have an OWB any more. If you read my byline, you will see that I had an OWB at my ex's place and I have 2 wood stoves here.

I have an OPINION....the OP asked questions about this stuff, and I answered. BUT NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!! I must either be completely wrong about everything, or I am a salesman, or otherwise invested in selling some product that I happen to post about here.

I give up. The anti-OWB paradigm is just too strong in this place, and if you wanna talk about dis-information, then just look at the many posts made by the state of New York or New England environmental agencies. Or the EPA... As I am obviously wrong about everything, and I must be getting paid to waste my time responding to posts like this.

What a joke...


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## flyingcow (Dec 16, 2012)

StihlHead said:


> Why is it here that any time I post ANYTHING about ANYTHING, everyone thinks I am a salesman or somehow involved in the products I post about here? Be is a chainsaw, a BBQ grill, OWB, or whatever? I mean, what is it with you people that everything and anything is somehow construed to be a giant conspiracy??? I am NOT a salesman for any type of OWB, or wood heating appliance. I do not even have an OWB any more. If you read my byline, you will see that I had an OWB at my ex's place and I have 2 wood stoves here.
> 
> I have an OPINION....the OP asked questions about this stuff, and I answered. BUT NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!! I must either be completely wrong about everything, or I am a salesman, or otherwise invested in selling some product that I happen to post about here.
> 
> ...


 
Statements like this makes us wonder......*The indoor Eko gasser that was priced above requires a separate water storage tank (Eko sells a 490 gallon steel tank for $3k). The CB priced above does not need a separate water storage tank and it holds 150 gallons in the boiler. *

Eko.....has never needed  storage.


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## maple1 (Dec 16, 2012)

I don't really see anything wrong with people supplying information in one post to correct misinformation in another. That's kind of a part of what makes this place so good - a big learning experience. I've been corrected many times and don't think I've ever felt like melting down about it.

(Also seemed pretty apparent to me the salesman comment was a joke).


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## Como (Dec 17, 2012)

I think it is is to fair to say that any wood burning Boiler system works better with storage.


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