# CANT DECIDE BETWEEN REGULAR OWB OR OUTDOOR WOOD GASSER



## dspoon19

I am having trouble deciding what will be the best bang for the buck as far as an outdoor wood boiler vs a wood gasification stove.  I give some specs below.

Live in NE Ohio
Use on average around 5.5 gallons of LP per day for forced air heating
have a 2200 sq ft house built in 2007, full basement
Have access to virtually as much free wood as I can take
don't leave the house for long periods of time during heating season


I had a few "VS's" questions.

1.) OWB vs Gasser maintenance
2.) upfront costs differences
3.) long term cost differences
4.) efficiencies differences
5.) ancillary equipment cost differences
6.) ease of operation
7.) ease of installation
8.) longevity (how long do they last with typical maintenance) of OWB vs wood gassifier
9.) any recommendations on either for a good brand?
10.) any other special considerations that  newbie would like/need to know about heating your house with an ourdoor wood burning appliance


thanks,
Derek in ohio


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## Clarkbug

Derek,

Welcome to Hearth!  

I would do some reading here to get a feel for things, since your question has been asked before.  

But I guess Ill start answering your question by asking some of my own...  how close are your neighbors?  You say you have access to as much free wood as you can take...how much time do you have to gather it? 

I cant address all of your questions, but I can speak in generalities about some things you asked.  A "regular" OWB can handle wet wood, at the expense of burning a lot more of it and smoking a bunch, potentially ticking off your neighbors.  An outdoor gasser needs dry wood, so you need to have a shed to keep the wood in or something to keep the rain/snow off of.  Gasser will be more expensive up front, but will use a lot less wood long term.  Spend the money to put your buried lines in right, as heat loss there will plague you for the rest of your days.  Same with the pipe size, dont skimp if you are on the edge between two sizes for the run that you have.  

I think ease of install will be the same between the two choices, and operation should be similar.  

Folks near me that have a regular OWB (now banned in NY for a new install) are those that have lots of time to gather wood in the winter for free (farmers who clear hedgerows, fallen trees in woodlots, etc.) or those that buy a log truck load and cut it up to toss it in.  I dont know anyone with an outdoor gasser, mostly because of the dry wood requirement.  

Others can speak to the other aspects of your question better than me.


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## maple1

Does it have to be an OWB?


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## flyingcow

1.) OWB vs Gasser maintenance   In Maine, OWB's have to be EPA compliant. My neighbor has an E-Classic OWB. He cleans his tubes about the same as I do. About every 2 weeks. Takes 15 minutes to do a good cleaning
2.) upfront costs differences  E-Classic was about $12k.. My gasser plus storage tank was about the same with controls. Figures given to me by E-Classic salesman. 1 cord of seasoned wood will replace 100 gals of oil. An indoor gasser 1 cord of seasoned wood replaces 150/175 gals of oil. This figure is spot on. 
3.) long term cost differences ?? 
4.) efficiencies differences look at #2
5.) ancillary equipment cost differences ??
6.) ease of operation My  gasser experience and observation of  OWB's owners, about the same between us.
7.) ease of installation  More  time for an indoor gasser, but savings in effiency, for me, outweighs that.
8.) longevity (how long do they last with typical maintenance) of OWB vs wood gassifier I expect 20 yrs, not sure of a OWB. 
9.) any recommendations on either for a good brand?  Take your time and look around. You've found a great site to help you with that. Good people here. 
10.) any other special considerations that newbie would like/need to know about heating your house with an ourdoor wood burning appliance No matter what you get for a burner, you should have seasoned wood. The obvious, location of stack. Should have a building to protect wood from the elements. 

I put an indoor gasser in an unattached building. piped underground to house. I like this set up. I also stack my wood on palllets and move with a tractor. Note my avatar. Also, a gasser makes minimal smoke. Once you start a fire, you can't tell it's burning. Kinda neat, but it's extremely efficient. I understand you have ample wood supply, but IMO, why burn more. 

Welcome, others will chime in.


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## flyingcow

Also, others have built a "man cave" to put an indoor gasser in. I've yet put a TV in mine, but maybe someday.


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## cityboy172

I have an owb, and am now wishing I would of known what a gasifacation boiler was 7 years ago when I bought my central boiler. I am going through about  1 cord a week as of lately.  Looking forward to revamping my system this spring.


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## flyingcow

cityboy172 said:


> I have an owb, and am now wishing I would of known what a gasifacation boiler was 7 years ago when I bought my central boiler. I am going through about  1 cord a week as of lately.  Looking forward to revamping my system this spring.




One thing i noticed about OWB's. they'll burn all that you put in. A buddy of mine has a 6048?  He learned not to fill it full at night, Learned about how much to put in to get him thru the night. Helped some on wood consumption. Which is about the same idea as me with my gasser, but it's alot less wood that i waste.


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## cityboy172

flyingcow said:


> One thing i noticed about OWB's. they'll burn all that you put in. A buddy of mine has a 6048?  He learned not to fill it full at night, Learned about how much to put in to get him thru the night. Helped some on wood consumption. Which is about the same idea as me with my gasser, but it's alot less wood that i waste.


I have the same boiler as your buddy.  I have noticed that a little bit, but that seems to apply more so in the warmer weather (+20 on up, low or no wind).  In this stuff we've had this year, It's more of a "feed me more oak".


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## dspoon19

Clarkbug said:


> Derek,
> 
> Welcome to Hearth!
> 
> I would do some reading here to get a feel for things, since your question has been asked before.
> 
> But I guess Ill start answering your question by asking some of my own...  how close are your neighbors?  You say you have access to as much free wood as you can take...how much time do you have to gather it?
> 
> I cant address all of your questions, but I can speak in generalities about some things you asked.  A "regular" OWB can handle wet wood, at the expense of burning a lot more of it and smoking a bunch, potentially ticking off your neighbors.  An outdoor gasser needs dry wood, so you need to have a shed to keep the wood in or something to keep the rain/snow off of.  Gasser will be more expensive up front, but will use a lot less wood long term.  Spend the money to put your buried lines in right, as heat loss there will plague you for the rest of your days.  Same with the pipe size, dont skimp if you are on the edge between two sizes for the run that you have.
> 
> I think ease of install will be the same between the two choices, and operation should be similar.
> 
> Folks near me that have a regular OWB (now banned in NY for a new install) are those that have lots of time to gather wood in the winter for free (farmers who clear hedgerows, fallen trees in woodlots, etc.) or those that buy a log truck load and cut it up to toss it in.  I dont know anyone with an outdoor gasser, mostly because of the dry wood requirement.
> 
> Others can speak to the other aspects of your question better than me.




The neighbors are fairly far away.  I sit on 4 acres in the middle of farm country.  I've got plenty of time to gather wood.  if I run out of time there is a eco-bloc guy 20 mins from my house that sells it fairly cheap compared to cord wood.


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## dspoon19

maple1 said:


> Does it have to be an OWB?


It has to be outside and it has to burn wood.  I don't wanna get into pellet furnaces or anything indoors.  I burnt wood indoors when I lived with my parents for 20 years and I know what a PITA indoor burning can be.


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## dspoon19

flyingcow said:


> 1.) OWB vs Gasser maintenance   In Maine, OWB's have to be EPA compliant. My neighbor has an E-Classic OWB. He cleans his tubes about the same as I do. About every 2 weeks. Takes 15 minutes to do a good cleaning
> 2.) upfront costs differences  E-Classic was about $12k.. My gasser plus storage tank was about the same with controls. Figures given to me by E-Classic salesman. 1 cord of seasoned wood will replace 100 gals of oil. An indoor gasser 1 cord of seasoned wood replaces 150/175 gals of oil. This figure is spot on.
> 3.) long term cost differences ??
> 4.) efficiencies differences look at #2
> 5.) ancillary equipment cost differences ??
> 6.) ease of operation My  gasser experience and observation of  OWB's owners, about the same between us.
> 7.) ease of installation  More  time for an indoor gasser, but savings in effiency, for me, outweighs that.
> 8.) longevity (how long do they last with typical maintenance) of OWB vs wood gassifier I expect 20 yrs, not sure of a OWB.
> 9.) any recommendations on either for a good brand?  Take your time and look around. You've found a great site to help you with that. Good people here.
> 10.) any other special considerations that newbie would like/need to know about heating your house with an ourdoor wood burning appliance No matter what you get for a burner, you should have seasoned wood. The obvious, location of stack. Should have a building to protect wood from the elements.
> 
> I put an indoor gasser in an unattached building. piped underground to house. I like this set up. I also stack my wood on palllets and move with a tractor. Note my avatar. Also, a gasser makes minimal smoke. Once you start a fire, you can't tell it's burning. Kinda neat, but it's extremely efficient. I understand you have ample wood supply, but IMO, why burn more.
> 
> Welcome, others will chime in.




Do you have to get a storage tank when you do a gasification system?  Do you have to put a gasser in a building or can it be a true outdoor free standing unit?  I don't want to burn more and if I cheap out and get a regular burner I am sure I will kick myself in the butt for not getting the gasser in 15 years when the "fun" of cutting wood and hauling wood wears off!


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## cityboy172

dspoon19 said:


> It has to be outside and it has to burn wood.  I don't wanna get into pellet furnaces or anything indoors.  I burnt wood indoors when I lived with my parents for 20 years and I know what a PITA indoor burning can be.


 

My next Boiler will be an Indoor model, outdoors.   Mine is going in a pole barn, or an addition to my pole barn anyways.


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## hobbyheater

dspoon19 said:


> Do you have to get a storage tank when you do a gasification system?  Do you have to put a gasser in a building or can it be a true outdoor free standing unit?  I don't want to burn more and if I cheap out and get a regular burner I am sure I will kick myself in the butt for not getting the gasser in 15 years when the "fun" of cutting wood and hauling wood wears off!



Our first boiler (non-gasier) was like the one pictured.  It burned 22 cords per year. This is what most outdoor boilers look like before the little metal house is built around them.




Our second boiler (no picture) (non gasier) was a triple pass cast iron down drafter which burned 16 cords per year. When 1,046 imperial gallons of storage was added, consumption dropped to 10 cords per year.



30+ years ago when our Jetstream was connected to the same storage, consumption dropped to 4 1/2 cords per year.

From my experience,  storage has really allowed our gasifiction boiler to work at very high rate of efficiency.

Most outdoor boilers gasification or not are unpressurized and adding storage is going to be awkward.


http://www.newhorizonstore.com/Products/88-eko-gasification-boiler.aspx

I feel your money would be much better spent if you were to build a simple out building that could contain one of the above indoor boilers and plus two 500 gallon propane tanks for heat storage.
You will find not many with outdoor boilers of either type will post on this forum.  But believe what others have said here.  Take your time and read the many posts and make an informed decision not a panicked off the cuff type purchase.

Welcome to "Hearth"


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## flyingcow

dspoon19 said:


> Do you have to get a storage tank when you do a gasification system? No. But my specific model you have to.  Do you have to put a gasser in a building or can it be a true outdoor free standing unit?  Yes, it needs to be in a insulated building    I don't want to burn more and if I cheap out and get a regular burner I am sure I will kick myself in the butt for not getting the gasser in 15 years when the "fun" of cutting wood and hauling wood wears off!


 I agree. 

Storage with a gasser does save some wood, but it's more about convince for me. Most of the time I start a fire once a day. Takes 10 minutes at best, which includes me splitting the kindlin' up first. I also heat my DHW n the summer months too. You can always add storage in later. My boiler is in outbuilding, and  my tank is in my basement about 100ft from boiler.


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## BillsWS

Derek, I have been working through the same question.  If I were to go OWB it would be the Portage & Main BL2840 http://www.portageandmainboilers.com/#!pm-ultimizer-series/c5zz  I think it is brilliant in its design, check it out.  If outside I could use the wood here on my property (12 acres).  I could be less fussy about the species and quality of the wood.  I have a Blaze King catalytic so I know the importance of DRY wood, but if something comes up in a year and I am not able to cut, split, stack and fully dry I wouldn't be in too big of a pinch.  The folks I have communicated with about their P & M BL series love them and are using a lot less wood than their previous OWB http://www.outdoorwoodfurnaceinfo.com/forum/  The mess would be outside, I think install would be WAY less complicated with the OWB (I have had two CB's in the past) and I don't need to add another chimney to my house.  On the other hand, the idea of the MOST EFFICIENT use of the wood BTU's appeals to me.  I have a fully insulated (ICF) 9 ft. high basement with outside access (man door size).  If it is really cold out and something happened to a pump or some other component, I could go down in the basement to work it out (outside?  Wow, changing a pump when it is 10 below zero out?).  The plumbing, tanks, valves, controllers, etc... seem WAY more complicated to me.  Going down the basement steps and feeling the warmth thrown off having the gasification boiler and tanks down there is appealring.  The cost of the inside boiler and hook ups is quite a lot higher in my research.  I am also a person who likes everything neat and tidy, and I believe that with an inside set up my wood would be smaller, less of it, and I would build a porch roof just outside my basement man door and have my year + worth of wood just outside the door.  Neat, tidy, organized and out of sight.


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## maple1

dspoon19 said:


> It has to be outside and it has to burn wood.  I don't wanna get into pellet furnaces or anything indoors.  I burnt wood indoors when I lived with my parents for 20 years and I know what a PITA indoor burning can be.


 
My boiler is in my basement - I wouldn't have it any other way & consider it to be nothing resembling a PITA.

But to each their own - and on that note, if I HAD to have a wood burner outside my house, I would put an indoor gassification boiler, in an insulated shed, big enough to hold it and my winters wood (maybe with some extra room for workshop or mancave space), and put storage tanks in my basement.


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## dspoon19

Has anyone ever calculated out the costs of the two systems and compared them?  I mean with the OWB you have the unit, the underground piping, a pump, and the heat exchanger.  Those are the basic necessities.  The gasification system requires the unit, a place to put the unit, possibly storage tanks to get the most benefit out of it, wood storage, pumps.

Assuming the gasser costs 2x more than the OWB and I save at max 50% on free wood and that the OWB set up costs 6K and the average life is going to be 15 years, it would "cost" 400 dollars per year for the OWB set up and 800 dollars per year for the gasification set up.  I will use approximately 5 cords of wood in a OWB for the heating season, so at best I will burn 2.5 cords of wood with the gasser unit.  2.5 cords takes me about 8 hours to cut and haul and costs $0. 

So in my simple mind I am saving 2.5 cords/8 hours of work but paying an extra 400 dollars per year.  This is why I question which one I should go with.  The gasser is more efficient yes but is it worth the money?

Is my thinking correct or am I overlooking something?


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## hobbyheater

dspoon19 said:


> Use on average around 5.5 gallons of LP per day for forced air heating



There is a big discrepancy between your propane used and your projected wood use to obtain the same results! 



dspoon19 said:


> .  I will use approximately 5 cords of wood in a OWB for the heating season, so at best I will burn 2.5 cords of wood with the gasser unit.  2.5 cords takes me about 8 hours to cut and haul and costs $0.
> Is my thinking correct or am I overlooking something?



I think you have missed something!


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## sloeffle

dspoon19 said:


> Assuming the gasser costs 2x more than the OWB and I save at max 50% on free wood and that the OWB set up costs 6K and the average life is going to be 15 years, it would "cost" 400 dollars per year for the OWB set up and 800 dollars per year for the gasification set up.  I will use approximately 5 cords of wood in a OWB for the heating season, so at best I will burn 2.5 cords of wood with the gasser unit.  2.5 cords takes me about 8 hours to cut and haul and costs $0.



Please don't take this the wrong way.

So what you are saying is that your chainsaws, wood haluer ( truck, ATV, tractor )  do not run on gas or some other form of fuel that you have to buy ? You also need to account for buying chainsaws and wear and tear on your equipment.

I have a buddy that will sells me 1.5 cord unsplit loads for 125$. I have 30 acres of dead ash trees that I can easily cut and split and I can't even justify my time / fuel / wear and tear on equipment when I can buy it that cheap. I even thought about going the pellet route but I dropped 3k on a PSG Caddy a few years ago that requires cord wood.


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## dspoon19

hobbyheater said:


> There is a big discrepancy between your propane used and your projected wood use to obtain the same results!
> 
> 
> 
> I think you have missed something!


 
From the BLM website (same numbers are on other sites) take number of gallons of LP used and divide by 220 to get cords of wood used.  I think they are assuming a good hardwood with low moisture content.  I am burning 1.5 year elm and shagbark hickory mixed in with some sugar maple and iron wood.

so....5.5/220= .025 cords per day x 30 days in a month=.75 cords per month x 6 month heating season = 4.5 cords.  I just rounded up to 5 for small insurance.

is this a fair way of determining wood usage?


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## maple1

From what I've seen & heard (I don't own one) - if you burn less than 8 cords of wood per year in an OWB, you are in a very small minority.

Isn't LP in the $4-5/gallon range now? So 5.5 gallons/day would be maybe $20? 6 month heating season would be $3500-4000? That amount of $ would buy a lot of wood - and a very nice boiler system in short order. Something seems off - but I don't buy propane except by the 20-pounder for the BBQ.

EDIT: Also, the way you calcd also doesn't take into account lost efficiencies due to the general nature of an OWB. Those will kill your calcs very badly right off.


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## dspoon19

sloeffle said:


> Please don't take this the wrong way.
> 
> So what you are saying is that your chainsaws, wood haluer ( truck, ATV, tractor )  do not run on gas or some other form of fuel that you have to buy ? You also need to account for buying chainsaws and wear and tear on your equipment.
> 
> I have a buddy that will sells me 1.5 cord unsplit loads for 125$. I have 30 acres of dead ash trees that I can easily cut and split and I can't even justify my time / fuel / wear and tear on equipment when I can buy it that cheap. I even thought about going the pellet route but I dropped 3k on a PSG Caddy a few years ago that requires cord wood.


 

I don't think I use 400 dollars a year in fuel, 2 stroke mix, chains, bar oil.


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## dspoon19

maple1 said:


> From what I've seen & heard (I don't own one) - if you burn less than 8 cords of wood per year in an OWB, you are in a very small minority.
> 
> Isn't LP in the $4-5/gallon range now? So 5.5 gallons/day would be maybe $20? 6 month heating season would be $3500-4000? That amount of $ would buy a lot of wood - and a very nice boiler system in short order. Something seems off - but I don't buy propane except by the 20-pounder for the BBQ.
> 
> EDIT: Also, the way you calcd also doesn't take into account lost efficiencies due to the general nature of an OWB. Those will kill your calcs very badly right off.


 

I'm locked in at $1.94/gallon thru till the spring.  True on the loss of efficiencies!  so if the OWB was 75% efficient I would still burn slightly under 8 cords per year.  I am not sure on the actual efficiencies of an OWB though.


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## maple1

Think more like 40-50%.

Maybe.

Definitely not 75%.


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## Treefarmer

dspoon19 said:


> I'm locked in at $1.94/gallon thru till the spring.  True on the loss of efficiencies!  so if the OWB was 75% efficient I would still burn slightly under 8 cords per year.  I am not sure on the actual efficiencies of an OWB though.




Possibly 40% efficient WITH storage. Figure on 25-30% otherwise.


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## stee6043

A lot of fun stuff going on in this thread!

One thing I haven't seen is any feedback on startup cost between the OWB and gassers.  I was under the impression that total installed cost for an OWB these days is almost spot-on with many of our gasser/storage setups?  The comment above suggested an OWB could be installed for $6k compared to a gasser for $12k. 

Am I correct in assuming you can't really do a new OWB these days for sub $10k with a pad, pex, etc and so on?  I'd bet dollar for dollar these systems are pretty darn close anymore.


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## MarkW

Many are above $10k which is partly responsible for me deciding to go with the gasser.  I think there are still some low end models available that would come in around $6k.


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## dspoon19

Portage and Main claim 80% average with gassers and 70% with their conventional OWB's.  Is this true? 

I think in my case the money leans towards the OWB and the time leans towards the gasser.  the classic time and money dilemma!


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## maple1

There's a difference between combustion efficiency & heat transfer efficiency - it's one thing to turn the wood to heat, quite another to get the heat to where it's needed or will be used.

Have you actually gotten firm quotes on OWB (gassing or not) stuff? Would be interested to see what you're looking at for costs. My new setup cost me about $15k all-in, with about 2k of that being due just to me living in a different country than where I bought the boiler from. Also had costs for new DHW & backup heating included - and also includes 15% tax on everything bought here. I think I'll be around 6 cords of wood (1/3 of it windfall spruce) for all heat & DHW by the time this heating season is over - 20 year old 2700 sq.ft. two storey on exposed hilltop. For what that is worth.


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## Seasoned Oak

Iv got a friend with an OWB. His house is smaller than mine. His wood pile is half


dspoon19 said:


> It has to be outside and it has to burn wood.  I don't wanna get into pellet furnaces or anything indoors.  I burnt wood indoors when I lived with my parents for 20 years and I know what a PITA indoor burning can be.


How about something in an attached garage. Best of both worlds.


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## flyingcow

I thought there were a few P n M users on this site. I don't think I've heard anything bad about the P n M on this site. You always here the bad 10 fold before the good pops up.  Call Portage, maybe they have a few users in your area. 

Keep in mind, you should have a pad for an OWB. Make the pad a bit bigger and four walls and put an indoor gasser in there. Just  light insulation should work for now. Upgrade the building later. You really should have some sort of lean to or wood shed to keep wood under cover and dry. If i had to build a wood shed, I would design it to hold at least two seasons wood. Walkway down the middle for the wheel barrow. That way once you stack it, leave it.

The end of the heating season is getting closer. Year end deals, you never know what you might stumble across.


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## hobbyheater

dspoon19 said:


> Portage and Main claim 80% average with gassers and 70% with their conventional OWB's.  Is this true?
> !



I have only seen one Portage & Main Optimizer 250 in action. The house it heats is half the size of our home , but consumes double the wood .
Your 4 acre lot is very small in relation to the amount of smoke that a conventional OWB is going to make!


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## Seasoned Oak

hobbyheater said:


> I have only seen one Portage & Main Optimizer 250 in action. The house it heats is half the size of our home , but consumes double the wood .
> Your 4 acre lot is very small in relation to the amount of smoke that a conventional OWB is going to make!


That sounds about right. Iv got a friend with an OWB. My houses is bigger than his,but his wood consumption is many times what mine is. Partly cuz it not seasoned too. If i had to handle that much wood id give up wood heat altogether. Not even a nice fire view for all your work.


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## dspoon19

stee6043 said:


> A lot of fun stuff going on in this thread!
> 
> One thing I haven't seen is any feedback on startup cost between the OWB and gassers.  I was under the impression that total installed cost for an OWB these days is almost spot-on with many of our gasser/storage setups?  The comment above suggested an OWB could be installed for $6k compared to a gasser for $12k.
> 
> Am I correct in assuming you can't really do a new OWB these days for sub $10k with a pad, pex, etc and so on?  I'd bet dollar for dollar these systems are pretty darn close anymore.


 

I'm just going by the Central Boiler website.  They seem to be most prevalent in my area along with hawken energy. The classic 5036 OWB model is $6600.  Parts and piping for a complete install will be around $1000.  so right around $7600 +/- a few hundred dollars for a complete set up.  so 8K to be safe.


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## dspoon19

Seasoned Oak said:


> Iv got a friend with an OWB. His house is smaller than mine. His wood pile is half
> 
> How about something in an attached garage. Best of both worlds.


 

Yea I thought about this.  or putting in a pole barn im trying to get up before fall as well.  my insurance company said unless the boiler is UL approved for indoor use I cant put it in the garage or barn and be covered.


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## dspoon19

hobbyheater said:


> I have only seen one Portage & Main Optimizer 250 in action. The house it heats is half the size of our home , but consumes double the wood .
> Your 4 acre lot is very small in relation to the amount of smoke that a conventional OWB is going to make!


 

As long as the prevailing winds stay as usual the closest neighbor is about 2 miles away.  if winds are bad his house is 200 yds away!  you think this is too close?


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## flyingcow

IMO. any kind of outdoor wood boiler that is not a true gasser will be a mistake. CB  is not a true gasser.you can buy an EKO and build a small outbuilding completely separate from everything and be further ahead.  or look for a UL listed gasser?


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## maple1

Aren't most gassifying indoor boilers UL listed?

Speaking for myself - I just want people to be aware of all their choices, and make sure they take everything into account before they make a decision. IMO an OWB would be down there on my personal list of choices - but I also realize everyone has different preferences & priorities & one answer doesn't fit all.


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## dspoon19

Just as a side, how many people here pay for wood?  And also how much work do you have to do if you buy it or if you can get it for free?


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## Boil&Toil

dspoon19 said:


> Assuming the gasser costs 2x more than the OWB and I save at max 50% on free wood and that the OWB set up costs 6K and the average life is going to be 15 years, it would "cost" 400 dollars per year for the OWB set up and 800 dollars per year for the gasification set up.



You appear to be assuming (incorrectly, I think) that an indoor boiler has the same lifespan as an outside - and for an outside non-gasifier, I think you are optimistic even at 15 years life, while 20-30 is not atypical for "indoor" versions, IME. Putting the indoor type outdoors (in a building, with storage in the building(s) to be heated) looks like a win to me .vs. most of the outdoor boilers.

And yes, *all modern indoor wood boilers are UL listed* - even my old smoker, which can typically be found on craigslist for $1000 or less (sometimes much less) - but I still want to de-smoke it before I put it to use. Aside from not wasting wood and polluting the air around my house, there's the delight of not having chimney fires...


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## flyingcow

dspoon19 said:


> Just as a side, how many people here pay for wood?  And also how much work do you have to do if you buy it or if you can get it for free?




I pay $185 processed delivered in the yard. 6 yrs ago i was buying it tree length for $95 a weighted cord. About 2 yrs ago tree length went to $120 a cord. For me and my time, I will have it processed and delivered for $185.


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## BillsWS

The price I got from P & M rep for the BL2840 is $7600.  The part of the boiler that contains water (water jacket) is replacable on the BL series.  I was given the price of $2500 (+ shipping) for a replacement water jacket.  I think some of the lower end gasification boilers (indoor) start around $4800 and go up to $12,000 from what I gather.


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## hobbyheater

dspoon19 said:


> As long as the prevailing winds stay as usual the closest neighbor is about 2 miles away.  if winds are bad his house is 200 yds away!  you think this is too close?



Interesting thread from a few months ago. 
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/best-owb-video-i-have-ever-seen.113364/

This is an example of what can be seen on YouTube and there are plenty more. So you will have to decide on what would be a good neighbor distance. 
.


----------



## martyinmi

flyingcow said:


> IMO. any kind of outdoor wood boiler that is not a true gasser will be a mistake. CB  is not a true gasser.you can buy an EKO and build a small outbuilding completely separate from everything and be further ahead.  or look for a UL listed gasser?


You gots to explain yourself here.
A unit that burns all the smoke from the particular species of fuel chosen and efficiently transfers said energy to it's hydronic reservoir with a sub 350 degree exhaust gas temperature certainly qualifies itself as a gasser-in my book anyway.
How differently does your book read?
And FYI, I'm not a huge CB fan.


----------



## flyingcow

dspoon19 said:


> I'm just going by the Central Boiler website.  They seem to be most prevalent in my area along with hawken energy. The classic 5036 OWB model is $6600.  Parts and piping for a complete install will be around $1000.  so right around $7600 +/- a few hundred dollars for a complete set up.  so 8K to be safe.




marty, this was my response to this above statement. i was referring to CB's claim that they are a gasser.  Didn't quote it right.  CB is not a gasser as I know it. Trying not to derail the thread.


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## Mauler

I have the outdoor econoburn gasser EBO-150. I heat 3000sqft in a well insulated house, we keep it at 75 and use 6-7 cord well seasoned (thanks to this forum I know how to actually season wood) in a shed next to the gasser. My neighbor has the CB 6048 and uses somewhere north of 12 cord for the same size house, (and I think I recall he keeps the house temp a bit lower). We both have 3 kids so lots of hot water use, etc. The econoburn is pressurized which I think helps with not using a plate exchanger but I don't have storage (not sure if I'll bother). Some minor maintenance so far (ashes, creosote, etc) and I'm only in my second season but I haven't had oil delivered in those 2 years and still have half a tank left. This summer I'll give it a proper cleaning but it doesn't seem too involved. I idle alot when I'm not home so it does smoke but I'm on a 7 acres wooded lot, so its not a problem. So far I'm very happy (crosses fingers).


----------



## flyingcow

Haven't seen the Econoburn up close, but it looks like a good OWB. So doesn't the Portage unit.


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## martyinmi

flyingcow,
The point(s) that I was trying to make to you are these:
(1)Central Boiler does make a true gasser. (2)They function in the same manner as a Garn, Tarm, Econoburn, etc.
Your post implies that they do not on both accounts.

The title of this post suggests in no uncertain terms that the OP is contemplating whether to choose a conventional OWB or an OWB that is a gasifier. No thread derailment here.

Whether he chooses an indoor unit or an outdoor unit, it should be a gasser, not a conventional.


----------



## Mauler

flyingcow said:


> Haven't seen the Econoburn up close, but it looks like a good OWB. So doesn't the Portage unit.




a quick review of the tarm looks like the basic design is very similar to the econoburn. No surprise as the downdraft concept seems pretty straightforward, except possibly for some control aspects. The outdoor econoburn is simply an indoor gasser with spray on foam insulation with an outhouse shell, not at all like a typical "OWB", which is why I got it. I believe it is the best choice for those who prefer an outdoor unit, although I thought long and hard about the P&M gasser. If I recall the PM is not pressurized which I felt was less desirable. Frankly, I wanted a Garn but couldn't justify the build out for it, now that they have a mini version I'm sure I would have gone that route, if only for the integrated storage.


----------



## dspoon19

Just talked to a neighbor that has an Appalachian stove insert and he's starting into his 5th cord of the year. It's been a bad winter so he said he will probably go the 6 cords. I am pretty confident I can burn 6 cords for the season with an OWB. So if I were to spend the extra $5k ( difference between central boilers gasser and conventional models), besides saving me from gathering 3 free cords of wood, what else would it do for me?  Even if it saved me 4 or 5 cords of free wood what would it save for me besides a few hours of time?  I can see a tipping point if you were to burn year round to heat dhw or if you lived in a cold climate and burned15 cords a year but is the extra cost worth the small amount I would burn? 

There are a lot of considerations to be made and I just want to make best decision possible. 

I thought maybe get a owb to start with since it will be a huge savings over lp and pay for itself in the first 2.5 years.  Then use part of those savings to invest in a gasser once the owb takes a crap. I just don't know.


----------



## dspoon19

hobbyheater said:


> Interesting thread from a few months ago.
> https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/best-owb-video-i-have-ever-seen.113364/
> 
> This is an example of what can be seen on YouTube and there are plenty more. So you will have to decide on what would be a good neighbor distance.
> .




I think this is just bad boiler operation and improperly seasoned wood. I've see conventional boilers run very efficient with low moisture wood and they hardly smoke at all once up to temp.


----------



## Charles1981

My neighbor works for a tree service. Has an OWB (heatilator) and burns green wood in it. I've seen them go through at least 10 cords so far this year. I mean it heats his 2500sq foot house and 1500sq foot pole barn but still. Holy wowza. It is a lot of work to go through that much wood...They are loading that OWB 3-4 times a day (probably because the burn such green wood).

And it can be annoying some days. Both him and my other neighbor have one, and some mornings its just billows of smoke heading our way.


----------



## dspoon19

Charles1981 said:


> My neighbor works for a tree service. Has an OWB (heatilator) and burns green wood in it. I've seen them go through at least 10 cords so far this year. I mean it heats his 2500sq foot house and 1500sq foot pole barn but still. Holy wowza. It is a lot of work to go through that much wood...They are loading that OWB 3-4 times a day (probably because the burn such green wood).
> 
> And it can be annoying some days. Both him and my other neighbor have one, and some mornings its just billows of smoke heading our way.



Yea I definitely don't want to be the guy that smokes all the time. My wood is all very seasoned. 10 cords is ridiculous to even deal with even if it's free and he can get all what he wants. I would not even own a wood burning appliance of any sort if I had to deal with 10 cords or more and had to pay $190 per cord. At that point for the small money savings I'll just stick to lp.


----------



## Charles1981

his wood is free but seriously...it is so much work for them. He is always complaining. I can't even start to bring up "proper" burning practices with him. He thinks I am crazy having 7-10 chords on hand the year before for next year. We are on good terms and I don't really even want to go there..he is the wood professional.

They are about 1000 feet away, but I still get the smoke my way. It really isn't that bad, but noticeable every so often, but I could see how some would be VERY sensitive about it especially those sensitive about asthma and respiratory issues.


----------



## hobbyheater

dspoon19 said:


> I think this is just bad boiler operation and improperly seasoned wood. I've see conventional boilers run very efficient with low moisture wood and they hardly smoke at all once up to temp.








This was what we owned for our first boiler. It burned well seasoned old growth Douglas Fir.  It smoked worst than the one in the first video. The worst smoke occurred as the boiler would cycle up and just as the smoke would clear up, it would cycle off. We did not have happy neighbors. The concept of a primitive boiler like this will heat your home but is also totally inefficient.




dspoon19 said:


> . At that point for the small money savings I'll just stick to lp.



If saving money is the only reason for burning wood it sets off warning bells.
I have always enjoyed the firewood collecting routine but I enjoy it a lot more when only putting up 4 1/2 cords per year as opposed to 22 cords per year.


----------



## maple1

dspoon19 said:


> Yea I definitely don't want to be the guy that smokes all the time. My wood is all very seasoned. 10 cords is ridiculous to even deal with even if it's free and he can get all what he wants. I would not even own a wood burning appliance of any sort if I had to deal with 10 cords or more and had to pay $190 per cord. At that point for the small money savings I'll just stick to lp.


 
You're kind of contradicting yourself in places - saying 3-4 cords wouldn't be that much of a saving to you, but no way would you burn 10 cords a year? If you go with a non-gasser OWB, I would bet money you'll be looking at significantly more than 6 cords. Just read Maulers post # 46 back a page - 6 cord vs. 12+. 6 cord a year is 60 extra cord burned by year 10. That's $11,900 at your $190/cord figure - nothing to sneeze at.


----------



## flyingcow

martyinmi said:


> flyingcow,
> The point(s) that I was trying to make to you are these:
> (1)Central Boiler does make a true gasser. (2)They function in the same manner as a Garn, Tarm, Econoburn, etc.
> Your post implies that they do not on both accounts.
> 
> The title of this post suggests in no uncertain terms that the OP is contemplating whether to choose a conventional OWB or an OWB that is a gasifier. No thread derailment here.
> 
> Whether he chooses an indoor unit or an outdoor unit, it should be a gasser, not a conventional.




You're starting a peeing competition again. Maybe an E-Classic is technically a gasser, but it's not nearly refined as the indoor gasser's that are used by members here. You'll use more wood with a CB and you will have more smoke issues compared to an indoor gasser.  The only exception I see to that is the Econoburn OWB. Which it was pointed out before, it's the same boiler they have as an indoor unit, just insualated with a an outside jacket.

As I have pointed out before, the numbers that were given to me from the E-Classic salesman. A cord of seasoned wood will replace a 100 gals of oil.My neighbor who has one, verifies these numbers.

An indoor gasser, 1 cord of seasoned wood will replace 150/175 gals of oil. I have and others on this site have verified these numbers. A E-Classic is a step up from the old 6048's, but not much.

All i want to point to the OP is the E-Classic is not as efficient as an indoor gasser. And you will have no smoke after start up. E-Classic has made some really off the wall claims on efficiency.


----------



## hobbyheater

I will  try and give short explanation of what causes the white smoke.
The fire box is completely surrounded by water with max temperature 190 F.
Fire box is loaded up with dry wood, water temp drops to 140 F, draft opens and a large percentage of the charge is ignited.
Water temp hits 190 F, draft closes, brisk fire is choked but still smolders with little smoke visible out of the chimney but the smoldering wood is still making creosote that now attaches to the fire box water surrounded walls.
Water temp drops to 140 F, draft again opens, smoldering wood again starts to burn but this is a low temperature fire creating much smoke and as it gets hotter, it will ignite the creosote that has attached itself to the firebox walls creating more smoke and keeping the smoke going until the water temp again reaches 190F when the draft shuts down.  It is an endless cycle.
You would need a very large load that would keep the draft open for long periods of time to clear up the smoke.  Your load does not appear to be that large.

Heat storage allows a boiler to have that continuous load.


----------



## 2sons

Had an inefficient, basic OWB and would go through a minimum of 16 + cords of wood a winter.  That was heating a 14 year old 3,000 sq. ft. house plus hot water.  Saved a lot on wood cutting by burning soft coal, but make sure your neighbors are far away.  When firing it with the coal it looks like a steam locomotive from the old western movies.


----------



## stee6043

flyingcow said:


> You're starting a peeing competition again. Maybe an E-Classic is technically a gasser, but it's not nearly refined as the indoor gasser's that are used by members here. You'll use more wood with a CB and you will have more smoke issues compared to an indoor gasser.  The only exception I see to that is the Econoburn OWB. Which it was pointed out before, it's the same boiler they have as an indoor unit, just insualated with a an outside jacket.
> 
> All i want to point to the OP is the E-Classic is not as efficient as an indoor gasser. And you will have no smoke after start up. E-Classic has made some really off the wall claims on efficiency.


 
I can certainly see the point you're trying to make, cow, but I think the disconnect here is that you're referencing the e-classic unit itself and not the "system".  In my humble opinion, the reason an e-classic will not compete with an indoor unit is primarily based on the fact that it is designed to idle (huge firebox) and designed to be outside.

I would argue that an E-Classic installed in my basement, hooked up to my storage, and run full-bore with zero idling would be very close in terms of efficiency to most of the indoor gassers we have.  I've never seen an e-classic in person but the fundamental down draft, HX concept seems to be very similar to the EU boilers.

Installed outside and used as designed (extensive idling) I fully agree with what you're saying about the e-classic, Cow.


----------



## stee6043

I would like to add another two cents from the viewpoint of a suburban wood burner using an EU gasser:

If I lived in the middle of nowhere on 100 acres of my own property filled with trees I would find myself seriously considering a standard OWB for my central heating needs (or an outside gasser, who knows).

All of us gasser owners know the realities of needing dry, quality, properly processed wood for our boilers.  There is not a doubt in my mind that my brother in law (who runs a CB 60XX) and I spend almost exactly the same amount of time processing wood each year even though he uses 2x-3x as much as I do.  Why?  Because he only splits pieces bigger than 10"-12" in diameter.  I have to split everything down to 4".  Hour for hour, I save nothing in terms of time.  In fact, I think I might spend more time some years depending on which stacks I'm using.

If there were no neighbors to worry about I can surely understand the appeal of dropping a tree and tossing it into the fire.  As my BIL says "a good chimney fire helps clean the flue".  And he has one or two per year I believe.  Good for him.

If I was outside any metro area I would have zero problems burning green wood and sleeping well at night knowing that I'm wasting a lot of wood (renewable) but saving a lot of time.  The forest fires in Michigan each year are doing more to pollute than my OWB ever would.  I've never lost sleep over the hundred campfires I've had beers around...yet.

So there, that's my two cents on OWB's.  It's unfortunate in my opinion that people with close neighbors or in places with poor air quality choose to run their boilers irresponsibly.  This is why the OWB will surely go the way of the Pinto.  But I don't think we do ourselves any justice by constantly bashing OWB's and their owners.  Running an OWB is a lifestyle choice just like anything else.  Just because they burn XX the wood doesn't necessarily mean the responsible OWB owner is any more a slave to their boiler than us "super eco friendly" gasser users are...


----------



## dspoon19

As of now I use around 30,443 BTU's of energy per hour to heat my house, heat my hot water and run my stove.  I am only looking to heat the house with the addition of an outdoor wood burning appliance.  What is the best outdoor wood burning appliance that will achieve this + a small cushion of BTU's?  I am looking for best mix of $/BTU for the furnace itself and performance/life.


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## hobbyheater

dspoon19 said:


> As of now I use around 30,443 BTU's outdoor wood burning appliance that will achieve this + a small cushion of BTU's?.



Examples 
Portage & Main Ultimizer  Max output 225,000 Btu's per hour   gives you a cushion of  194,557 BTU'S per hour .
 Portage & Main Optimizer  max output  190,000 BTU'S per hour  gives a cushion of    159,557 BTU'S per hour.


----------



## maple1

dspoon19 said:


> As of now I use around 30,443 BTU's of energy per hour to heat my house, heat my hot water and run my stove.  I am only looking to heat the house with the addition of an outdoor wood burning appliance.  What is the best outdoor wood burning appliance that will achieve this + a small cushion of BTU's?  I am looking for best mix of $/BTU for the furnace itself and performance/life.


 
You will have to come to that conclusion (which is best for you) yourself, by gathering all the info & weighing pros & cons with your priorities.

IMO, with a heatload that small and what would be a very large cushion inherent in any OWB, an OWB is not the best solution at all in either $/BTU, or performance, or life.

I'm out of this one...


----------



## martyinmi

flyingcow said:


> You're starting a peeing competition again. Maybe an E-Classic is technically a gasser, but it's not nearly refined as the indoor gasser's that are used by members here. You'll use more wood with a CB and you will have more smoke issues compared to an indoor gasser.  The only exception I see to that is the Econoburn OWB. Which it was pointed out before, it's the same boiler they have as an indoor unit, just insualated with a an outside jacket.
> 
> As I have pointed out before, the numbers that were given to me from the E-Classic salesman. A cord of seasoned wood will replace a 100 gals of oil.My neighbor who has one, verifies these numbers.
> 
> An indoor gasser, 1 cord of seasoned wood will replace 150/175 gals of oil. I have and others on this site have verified these numbers. A E-Classic is a step up from the old 6048's, but not much.
> 
> All i want to point to the OP is the E-Classic is not as efficient as an indoor gasser. And you will have no smoke after start up. E-Classic has made some really off the wall claims on efficiency.


Once again, my friend, explain what you mean by "not nearly as refined" please. I believe the E-Classics have a three stage burn. Three separate solenoids that, when working in unison with the controller, determine how much air is introduced as well as the location said air is introduced.

I have friends with E-Classics and they DO NOT SMOKE. The only two instances where they might would be when (1) bridging is experienced (same as yours) and (2) immediately after burn cycle is complete, but it only lasts for a few moments.

If you have your Tarm in a barn and not in your home, you know as well as I that you have as much radiant loss as the E-Classic, right?

From what I've read about the Econoburn OWB's they are a fine unit, but they cannot possibly be any more or any less efficient than the E-Classics. Their designs, as viewed from their websites, show both units share the same efficient downdraft design and a similar heat exchange system. If both are used the same way (without storage), I'd wager that wood consumption differences would be negligible. I'd go out on a limb and say that I think the E-Classic would use slightly less because of the control system it employs.

The point that I'd like to make to the OP is that the E-Classic is just as efficient as your Tarm when it comes to converting wood gas into heat. Your system should, however, be able to transfer more Btu's to your home because of the storage system that you employ and the fact that you have much, much less idle time. Once again, though, I'd wager that amount would be difficult to measure.

Lastly, if you choose to ignore CB's efficiency numbers, shouldn't you also refuse to quote their numbers pertaining to oil/wood comparisons?

It is not my intention to start a peeing competition here either. My sole intention is to make the OP aware that thermodynamic laws do not apply more to a European styled gasser than they do to a gasifying OWB.

stee6043, two very good posts! I've owned 3 Pinto's in the past. Two mid 70's wagons (one was a crusin' wagon!), and a Brand new '79 3 door I bought when I was a senior in high school.


----------



## flyingcow

Lastly, if you choose to ignore CB's efficiency numbers, shouldn't you also refuse to quote their numbers pertaining to oil/wood comparisons?

The numbers that was given to me from the CB salesman, were his own experience. Not CB's "effiency" numbers that they post in the misleading ad's. Plus my neighbor and good friend has the same real experience. My gasser out performs the the E-classic. 100 gals vs 150/175 gals per cord.  You can make all kinds of nonsense in a long running thread. You were taken to the cleaners a while ago on this site defending CB's numbers. I am done with this marty. 


stee, you make a good point that i somewhat  agree with. I understand the idea of blocking wood up big. Less time splitting. I own 50 acres not worried about smoking out the neighbors. But whether I buy the wood or I have to process it myself I want to use less. But I think an E-Classic burning wide open will still not perform as well as a decent gasser. Has nothing to do with storage, or heat load. My question is...why the big azzed firebox? If it will perform as well as Erou type gasser's, why does Econoburn OWB have a smaller firebox? The cost of an E-Classic is as much, if not more than a gasser with storage. My 2 cents.  

And to dspoon......my apologies. You are looking for information, and we got a bit derailed.... 

As a note, I drive truck for a living. I am not a heating guy. But some day.............who knows.


----------



## martyinmi

flyingcow said:


> Lastly, if you choose to ignore CB's efficiency numbers, shouldn't you also refuse to quote their numbers pertaining to oil/wood comparisons?
> You were taken to the cleaners a while ago on this site defending CB's numbers. I am done with this marty.


I have never been "taken to the cleaners" while "defending CB's numbers". Do some digging my friend. You'll find no such defense, especially from this P&M owner! I have, in the past, staunchly defended gasifying OWB's, especially when an indoor unit wouldn't be a viable option.

And.....The title of this thread is "CAN"T DECIDE BETWEEN REGULAR OWB OR OUTDOOR WOOD GASSER". Of the two choices available in the thread title, you apparently chose....... neither?

You ARE trying to sell your style (and maybe brand?) of boiler. I'm simply trying to sell responsible wood gasification, be it from an indoor unit or an outdoor unit.

Do you realize just how incredibly ridiculous it sounds when you claim your gasser is up to 75% more efficient that an E-classic?


----------



## hobbyheater

flyingcow said:


> ....As a note, I drive truck for a living. I am not a heating guy. But some day.............who knows.




Full derailment in effect. Drove truck for a few years also Water cooled brakes, limiting valve for steering axle , lots of Fun .


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## flyingcow

Buddies of mine haul off road. They usually gross 250k on 6 axles. The right kinda wood can push 280k.


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## stee6043

The only way this thread could get more off track would be to start posting pictures of scantily clad women.  But it's pure entertainment with a dash of enlightenment tossed in regardless.  Highly enjoyable as far as I can tell.


----------



## dspoon19

Not a problem, I enjoy all the different POV's and experiences and knowledge everyone that has to offer.  Like Jack Nicholson said in batman "you cant make an omelet without breaking a few eggs".


----------



## hobbyheater

stee6043 said:


> The only way this thread could get more off track would be to start posting pictures of scantily clad women. .



This is the best that I can Do! 
I'm recovering from laser Prostate surgery , so my bride of  42 years ( known as Woodwidow on another forum) cleaned the boiler and chimney for me on the weekend!


----------



## bpirger

Hobby....I hope you are feeling great and healing even better!  And what a trooper to do the work for you!

I live in the middle of 44 acres of woods with my nearest neighbor over 0.5 mile away.  I installed a Garn.  We love it.  I don't think there's anything better for radiant heat, becuase I can use low temp water very well.  One fire a day.  Takes 5 minutes tops.  I don't need to split to the size of the typical "euro gasser"....but I do tend to split everything over 3" at least once anyways.  I leave things bigger than my wife (yeah srnhe will run the splitter sometimes).   No mess inside...no oil in 4 years.  None.

For me it was about simplicity....can't be a more simple machine than the Garn.  Hopefully it will last forever.

I'd rather not burn twice the wood and have twice the work......I'd rather not smell the smoke from my own stack like I suspect I would from an OWB.

My wood comes from my lot....so while it is "free", it isn't really free.  I'm hoping to buy a 562XP soon....I have a winch on the 3pt behind the tractor....it isn't free.  But I DO enjoy it....

I haven't heard of too many OWB lasting very long....most I have seen seem to go away in 5-7 years.   Nothing worse than driving by one turning on when there's something of an inversion layer in the valley....

My little brother died in a house fire in 1976, gas pilot light ignited gasoline spilled in the basement....so for me, there's no boiler in the garage. 

Everyone has there own reasons/drivers for their choices....you really have to wrestle with it yourself and arrive upon your own conclusions.  There really is a "smoking gun" answer....though there is a smoking stack!  

Without storage, you'll likely idle often in anything with your modest heat load....which leads to problems with all wood burners without storage.  That's another whole line of thought for ya, storage or not, etc.

It adds up, it reaches deep in your pocket during install time, but you get what you pay for......Enjoy the journey....it should be enjoyable....especially if you are doing it all yourself.

It's 3F outside, I'm sitting in shorts, the floor is 82 (radiant), the temp is 74, the Garn is outside winding down, everyone else is asleep in bed, LeBron just hit a killer 3 to beat the Warriors at the buzzer.....and I don't have to  start a fire until tomorrow evening...  Life is great, save Lebron.  Go Spurs!


----------



## hobbyheater

bpirger said:


> I live in the middle of 44 acres of woods with my nearest neighbor over 0.5 mile away.  I installed a Garn.  We love it.  I don't think there's anything better for radiant heat, becuase I can use low temp water very well.  One fire a day.  Takes 5 minutes tops.  I don't need to split to the size of the typical "euro gasser"....but I do tend to split everything over 3" at least once anyways.  I leave things bigger than my wife (yeah srnhe will run the splitter sometimes).   No mess inside...no oil in 4 years.  None.
> 
> For me it was about simplicity....can't be a more simple machine than the Garn.!




Sad the lose of your brother !

We come from the dark side of heating a home with a wood boiler ,the time before gassification and storage were heard of ! When we learned of the Jetstream early 80's it did not take very long to make the change. The Jetstream arrived on the seen about 3 years before the Garn , had the Garn been available it would have been our choice! 

dspoon 19 
This is a you tube link to a video on the Garn . Its an expensive system that not all can afford but I thought you might enjoy seeing the concept .


----------



## Fred61

One point not considered by most is the aging of the owner/operator. Looking at a cord of wood from inside a 70 year old body is much different than what a 40 year old sees. I'm in my 70s and in my younger years if I was faced with putting up 12 cords of wood I would jump for my tools and head for the woods. Now things are different. Three cords are as much as I want to handle.

It bugs me to read articles every day written by 30 somethins about when a person should retire . They say we should keep working 'til 70. I say don't tell me thatI should work 'till 70 unless you are writing yoiur piece from inside a 7o year old body.


----------



## BrotherBart

Amen Fred. A big Amen.

BB -- Sixty-six in two weeks.


----------



## Roundgunner

I'm new to this but will give you my thoughts.

I have a extremely large heating demand and growing.


My house + business combination is 2500 sq, with a 1400sq Modine serviced ( occasionally ) 3 car garage, that has my mother inlaws 900 sq. house attached on the other side.


The growing part is a under construction 31 X 40 3 car garage with a 2 bedroom apartment above it for my daughter and her family. With a enclosed sun/pool room 15x30. This garage will have a Modine also.


I have 2 oil boilers, one in each basement of the existing house’s. The big house has 2 air handlers and the pool heater. The small house has 1 air handler and the garage Modine. When the other garage, apartment, sun room are done the smaller house boiler will supply the air handler and Modine for it.


Long winded but it shows it is complicated and large.



I got a Profab Empyre elite II 200 last fall. It is a OWB gasser built into a too small woodshed (9 x13) about 30 from the new garage into the woods.


I have the gasser plumbed into a manifold in the existing garage splitting water off to the heat exchangers in each basement creating a secondary loop with the oil dragons.  I did it this way because it is the end of the plumbing changes, and if the wood goes out or can’t keep the secondary loop hot enough for the demand the oil dragon will kick in.


Performance:

I used to have a homemade wood boiler to heat my pool and I burned pine in it because people were always giving it to me for nothing. In October I had about 6 cord of seasoned pine and 3 cord of seasoned maple that was cut and split too small, it was for our small emergency heat portable woodstove.


I also gathered a few cords of log length miscellaneous hardwood that came down during hurricane Sandy (fall 1.5 years ago) that I thought would be OK to burn. Remember I said I was new?

The boiler makes plenty of heat, the pumps move the hot water around pretty good too, the heat exchangers are too small and will have to be replaced with larger better ones. (PM me if you want to buy some used 50 plate Heat exchangers.)

The wood has been my problem. I was not sure when my wife was going to see the light and let me do this project so when she did in September I was not quite ready with the wood and had no time to put into it as I installed the boiler and shed with a couple friends and it was a pretty big project and we were racing the cold weather.

The pine works but it burns pretty fast, the small maple burns nice too but is cut so small it burns fast too. I try to mix it and we have been getting by in this very cold winter. The 1.5 year old log length that I cut to length and split in November was not dry enough and for the most part is next years wood. I’m afraid I’m going to run out of wood before we run out of winter.

I like the way the boiler runs and Pro Fab sent me a new firebrick for the lower door with no hassle when I noticed a crack. I get hardly any smoke from it which is a good thing as I have neighbors. I fill it 3 times a day but when it is below zero over night I only let it go 6 hours because I don’t want it to get down to where the oil dragon has to kick in.

So far we have only burned 1/8th of a 275 gal oil tank and most of that was during the times I was cleaning the boiler. The way this runs with incorrect wood I bet next year when I have proper size and dry wood I will only fill twice a day unless it is real cold then only 3 times. I’m not sure what advantage a water storage tank would give me, the thing is not fun to cold start a new fire in so I don’t think I want to let it go out, ever. I have been able to clean it with enough embers to restart without the whole cold start PIA.

Cost

I got a deal on the boiler as it was the last one at the dealers who is not going to sell boilers anymore. $9000

Pumps, pex, fittings, copper and heat exchangers about $4000

Shed with windows and power $1100

Food and coffee for my helpers $400

My guess is I would have burned about 12-14 hundred gallons of oil by now. +$4000 between the 2 houses. (both houses are 73-74 degrees, both women have arthritis and the heat helps)

For the little bit of money difference I think you would be better served with a gasser OWB in a shed bigger than mine.


----------



## kopeck

How about this point, one that no one has really addressed. Who wants to go outside and feed a boiler on a cold, windy night?  There's been nights when I haven't been feeling 100% that I can barley drag my self downstairs to get the Tarm going, I'm pretty sure I would burn oil/lp what ever on those nights if I had to go out to tend an OWB. 

I can completely see having a boiler in another building if you don't want the mess in your house but again, it would be enclosed and out of the elements.  There would still be some losses here but there's also a better chance to mitigate those losses.

I don't think it can really be argued that if you are looking to get the best bang for your cord a gasser inside your heated space is the way to go.  OWBs work, but all that heat you are loosing to the ground and to the atmosphere adds up after awhile.  It's just the nature of the beast.  Add in the flat plate exchanger and there a bit more loss there as well (although that's a much smaller loss overall)

If you are willing to cut/burn more wood to make up for the losses then go for it!

K


----------



## hobbyheater

Roundgunner said:


> I'm new to this but will give you my thoughts..




Welcome to " Hearth" !

Good post!


----------



## dspoon19

Roundgunner said:


> I'm new to this but will give you my thoughts.
> 
> I have a extremely large heating demand and growing.
> 
> 
> My house + business combination is 2500 sq, with a 1400sq Modine serviced ( occasionally ) 3 car garage, that has my mother inlaws 900 sq. house attached on the other side.
> 
> 
> The growing part is a under construction 31 X 40 3 car garage with a 2 bedroom apartment above it for my daughter and her family. With a enclosed sun/pool room 15x30. This garage will have a Modine also.
> 
> 
> I have 2 oil boilers, one in each basement of the existing house’s. The big house has 2 air handlers and the pool heater. The small house has 1 air handler and the garage Modine. When the other garage, apartment, sun room are done the smaller house boiler will supply the air handler and Modine for it.
> 
> 
> Long winded but it shows it is complicated and large.
> 
> 
> 
> I got a Profab Empyre elite II 200 last fall. It is a OWB gasser built into a too small woodshed (9 x13) about 30 from the new garage into the woods.
> 
> 
> I have the gasser plumbed into a manifold in the existing garage splitting water off to the heat exchangers in each basement creating a secondary loop with the oil dragons.  I did it this way because it is the end of the plumbing changes, and if the wood goes out or can’t keep the secondary loop hot enough for the demand the oil dragon will kick in.
> 
> 
> Performance:
> 
> I used to have a homemade wood boiler to heat my pool and I burned pine in it because people were always giving it to me for nothing. In October I had about 6 cord of seasoned pine and 3 cord of seasoned maple that was cut and split too small, it was for our small emergency heat portable woodstove.
> 
> 
> I also gathered a few cords of log length miscellaneous hardwood that came down during hurricane Sandy (fall 1.5 years ago) that I thought would be OK to burn. Remember I said I was new?
> 
> The boiler makes plenty of heat, the pumps move the hot water around pretty good too, the heat exchangers are too small and will have to be replaced with larger better ones. (PM me if you want to buy some used 50 plate Heat exchangers.)
> 
> The wood has been my problem. I was not sure when my wife was going to see the light and let me do this project so when she did in September I was not quite ready with the wood and had no time to put into it as I installed the boiler and shed with a couple friends and it was a pretty big project and we were racing the cold weather.
> 
> The pine works but it burns pretty fast, the small maple burns nice too but is cut so small it burns fast too. I try to mix it and we have been getting by in this very cold winter. The 1.5 year old log length that I cut to length and split in November was not dry enough and for the most part is next years wood. I’m afraid I’m going to run out of wood before we run out of winter.
> 
> I like the way the boiler runs and Pro Fab sent me a new firebrick for the lower door with no hassle when I noticed a crack. I get hardly any smoke from it which is a good thing as I have neighbors. I fill it 3 times a day but when it is below zero over night I only let it go 6 hours because I don’t want it to get down to where the oil dragon has to kick in.
> 
> So far we have only burned 1/8th of a 275 gal oil tank and most of that was during the times I was cleaning the boiler. The way this runs with incorrect wood I bet next year when I have proper size and dry wood I will only fill twice a day unless it is real cold then only 3 times. I’m not sure what advantage a water storage tank would give me, the thing is not fun to cold start a new fire in so I don’t think I want to let it go out, ever. I have been able to clean it with enough embers to restart without the whole cold start PIA.
> 
> Cost
> 
> I got a deal on the boiler as it was the last one at the dealers who is not going to sell boilers anymore. $9000
> 
> Pumps, pex, fittings, copper and heat exchangers about $4000
> 
> Shed with windows and power $1100
> 
> Food and coffee for my helpers $400
> 
> My guess is I would have burned about 12-14 hundred gallons of oil by now. +$4000 between the 2 houses. (both houses are 73-74 degrees, both women have arthritis and the heat helps)
> 
> For the little bit of money difference I think you would be better served with a gasser OWB in a shed bigger than mine.




Thanks for laying this out there!  I was hoping someone could break down the "total cost" of a gasser system.  Now I would like to see a comparable regular OWB system broke down.  Is all the ancillary equipment really 4K?  I was just quoted a Hawken OWB for 6300 and the dealer said total would be around 8500 with all fittings, pumps, piping, etc.  I know the good pex is expensive but besides that its just ball valves, a taco recirc. pump, filter, HX'er and misc. copper fittings.  I don't see how all those things could all add up to $2200 for me.   I am an engineer and have been designing industrial glass melting furnaces for years and I know the cost of the equipment that goes with the actual furnace is expensive but no where near the actual tank cost!  Thanks though for sharing your experiences!


----------



## dspoon19

kopeck said:


> How about this point, one that no one has really addressed. Who wants to go outside and feed a boiler on a cold, windy night?  There's been nights when I haven't been feeling 100% that I can barley drag my self downstairs to get the Tarm going, I'm pretty sure I would burn oil/lp what ever on those nights if I had to go out to tend an OWB.
> 
> I can completely see having a boiler in another building if you don't want the mess in your house but again, it would be enclosed and out of the elements.  There would still be some losses here but there's also a better chance to mitigate those losses.
> 
> I don't think it can really be argued that if you are looking to get the best bang for your cord a gasser inside your heated space is the way to go.  OWBs work, but all that heat you are loosing to the ground and to the atmosphere adds up after awhile.  It's just the nature of the beast.  Add in the flat plate exchanger and there a bit more loss there as well (although that's a much smaller loss overall)
> 
> If you are willing to cut/burn more wood to make up for the losses then go for it!
> 
> K



Yeah I worry about that sometimes too, what if I don't feel good or work runs over or I have to go away for the weekend.  I figure once I put it in the ROI is 2.5-3 years at current propane price/usage.  I know I have to be dedicated in those 2.5-3 years or it will all be for nothing.  I have a 36x40 pole barn plan in the works and I was going to situate the boiler so that if I decide to put it in there I can build the barn around the boiler.  tuck it in a corner or something.  I put my hand on my neighbors CB the other day and the sheet metal was barely warm.  I also talked to the dealer because I was going to put it in the barn to help give off radiant heat from the unit but he said they are so well insulated that you wont get much heat off of them at all.  he also said to check with insurance before I put the unit in the barn to check and see if they will insure the barn with it in there.


----------



## kopeck

Well, don't forget what ever heat is lost to the atmosphere is lost where and indoor boiler the heat loss is just absorbed into the house.

So it's even more then just how well insulated it is...

K


----------



## heaterman

Here's the math.......

5.5gl propane = 502150 btu's (91,300btu/gallon)

At the nominal industry figure of 21,000,000 btu's / cord of well seasoned wood will gross out to about 41 days worth of propane use for you.

BUT! THE DEVIL IS IN THE DETAILS.........

*Given the fact that even the best gasser OWB's will net about 50% efficiency (not including system losses from underground piping etc)....you are now looking at a cord every 20 days on average.
*If you look at a standard OWB with an efficiency of 30-35%, (those are measured real world numbers)  you are down to burning a cord every 12-16 days or there abouts.
*Burn green unseasoned wood and you can cut another 3-6 days off the amount of time it will take to burn a cord of wood.

You will find, as have many others, that regardless of what the OWB salesman is telling you, a full cord every 2 weeks is about normal. One of my customers just told me that through this patch of cold recent cold weather he was torching through 2 full cords every 9-10 days.

If I were you I would not easily discount a good quality pellet boiler. Mine has been lit since last January and the display tells me I just hit the 8 ton mark. Less than $1500 invested for a years worth of heat and domestic hot water and about 10 minutes per week of my time.


----------



## dspoon19

heaterman said:


> Here's the math.......
> 
> 5.5gl propane = 502150 btu's (91,300btu/gallon)
> 
> At the nominal industry figure of 21,000,000 btu's / cord of well seasoned wood will gross out to about 41 days worth of propane use for you.
> 
> BUT! THE DEVIL IS IN THE DETAILS.........
> 
> *Given the fact that even the best gasser OWB's will net about 50% efficiency (not including system losses from underground piping etc)....you are now looking at a cord every 20 days on average.
> *If you look at a standard OWB with an efficiency of 30-35%, (those are measured real world numbers)  you are down to burning a cord every 12-16 days or there abouts.
> *Burn green unseasoned wood and you can cut another 3-6 days off the amount of time it will take to burn a cord of wood.
> 
> You will find, as have many others, that regardless of what the OWB salesman is telling you, a full cord every 2 weeks is about normal. One of my customers just told me that through this patch of cold recent cold weather he was torching through 2 full cords every 9-10 days.
> 
> If I were you I would not easily discount a good quality pellet boiler. Mine has been lit since last January and the display tells me I just hit the 8 ton mark. Less than $1500 invested for a years worth of heat and domestic hot water and about 10 minutes per week of my time.


 
When you look on most if not all of the OWB websites, they say they are rated for X amount of BTU's per hour with a properly seasoned wood.  How do they arrive at this number?  Is this number accurate.  The boilers I am looking at are rated by the manufacturers at 225K BTU/Hr with good seasoned wood.  Where do they measure BTU's at?  I know they cant take into account losses in underground piping and stuff but to claim the BTU's and not back it up.....can they legally put that info on their sites??


----------



## heaterman

Excellent question and it does make you wonder how they can make those claims.

Basically, you are looking at efficiency ratings that were obtained in a lab, not outdoors, and using a test protocol that bears absolutely no resemblance to actual working conditions. (about like comparing me to Kate Upton) 
The testing protocol was so flawed that the EPA quit telling manufacturers they had to use it until they came up with something else.
They also told the manufacturers involved that they should voluntarily cease using the efficiency numbers from those tests in their product literature because they were so phony. Sad to say, the word voluntary is key there and a lot of them are still quoting the bogus numbers.
In a sense, I do not feel sorry for anyone who is so ignorant that they would actually believe some of the claims of 98% efficiency some of the companies claim to produce. It is a physical impossibility.
The other thing they do is publish misleading numbers that use combustion efficiency only and ignore the fact that 70% of the heat produced exits out the chimney because thermal efficiency (heat exchanger design) is so poor.

Don't get sucked up in the hype.
The last time we did that, Obama got elected.


----------



## Roundgunner

Well just so I don’t feel so dumb, I have to think if the temp in the upper chamber of my gasser is, lets say 800 degrees and the lower chamber is 1800-2000 degrees and the temp coming out the stack is 350 that heat is going to be going into the water.

The water is losing temp every inch of the way but that’s life. If it comes out of the boiler at 175, heats over 3500 sq feet of house and DHW and returns at 155 to be reheated life is good. All that and if you are worried about cost you can gather your own wood, have you ever tried to drill a heating oil well?


----------



## martyinmi

heaterman said:


> *Given the fact that even the best gasser OWB's will net about 50% efficiency (not including system losses from underground piping etc)


Steve,
In your mind, would an Econoburn OWB be any more efficient then,say, an E-Classic?
Wouldn't a Garn in a barn, or any other European style gasser in an enclosure be near the 50% efficiency mark also, especially if the storage tanks were in the enclosure?
I'm not a huge believer in the EPA's numbers any more than you are. When the Garn was tested, it tested right in there with some of the higher testing OWB gassers.
I couldn't imagine any of the European indoor units being much more efficient, if any, at converting wood gas into heat than what the Garn is.
If we presuppose that they (indoor units) operate at 85% efficiency and employ mass indoor storage, then I need to know where the 35% in efficiencies went, especially if we are not including system losses from underground piping, etc., as that would make efficiencies for the OWB gasser even lower.
I'm aware that there are some losses from idle time, but any OWB gasser that I've seen shuts off the air completely when done cycling. If mine were to idle for more than about three hours, it would extinguish itself. I'm aware that there are some losses from the exhaust, and an OWB gassers exhaust losses would be higher than an indoor unit's, but how much? Radiant losses too, but how do we do a heat loss calculation? Has a study been done and published? How does one even calculate such losses?

Just to let everyone know, I consider Steve a friend. I've pm'd him on several occasions, and I've met him at his house and looked at his pellet boiler. He is one of the most intelligent HVAC professionals I've met.
I simply want to understand, from a heating and cooling professional's point of view that I trust, where the extra 35% goes.

In other words Steve, I want to get into your head! Just for a quick visit though.

Marty


----------



## flyingcow

Wohaa...Marty chimes in with a big pile of words. Go figure. BTW......my gasser still equals 150/175 gals of oil. Eclassic equals 100 gals. These are my numbers. Love to haunt when I'm right.


----------



## martyinmi

Hmmmmm.......In post 66 our favorite "airborne bovine" was "done with this". Now he's back seeking his own brand of "haunting" justice. 

Give it up cow-boy. You'll not find a sane soul on this planet who'd bet a steak dinner on behalf your self fabricated 75% added efficiencies.


----------



## Roundgunner

dspoon19 said:


> Thanks for laying this out there!  I was hoping someone could break down the "total cost" of a gasser system.  Now I would like to see a comparable regular OWB system broke down.  Is all the ancillary equipment really 4K?  I was just quoted a Hawken OWB for 6300 and the dealer said total would be around 8500 with all fittings, pumps, piping, etc.  I know the good pex is expensive but besides that its just ball valves, a taco recirc. pump, filter, HX'er and misc. copper fittings.  I don't see how all those things could all add up to $2200 for me.   I am an engineer and have been designing industrial glass melting furnaces for years and I know the cost of the equipment that goes with the actual furnace is expensive but no where near the actual tank cost!  Thanks though for sharing your experiences!



I’m not sure of the actual cost, I tried to not bring it up too much, my wife was not thrilled. It seemed like I was getting more fittings every time I turned around.

I used over 400 feet of 1” Pex and insulation. 2 big 1” manifolds, 2- ¾ manifolds, 2 strainers, 2 check valves, 2 heat exchangers, 2 boat loads of copper and brass fittings and a truck load of hangers. It seemed to be never ending but it is nice now.

My wood boiler is up a hill so I used a Tyco 0014 at the boiler, 90 feet of 1” pex into a manifold then split to go into the two separate basements. I have a second and third Tyco 0014 in each basement just before a strainer then into the heat exchangers and back up to the manifold and finally back to the boiler. The secondary loop (oil) has a Tyco 007 on each loop.

I forgot that I had another friend (plumber) spend some time with us, I bought some fittings and the strainers from him and gave him $300 for his time and I owe him a few boxes of ammo when he lets me know what he needs.


----------



## BoilerMan

Roundgunner said:


> I’m not sure of the actual cost, I tried to not bring it up too much, my wife was not thrilled. It seemed like I was getting more fittings every time I turned around.
> 
> I used over 400 feet of 1” Pex and insulation. 2 big 1” manifolds, 2- ¾ manifolds, 2 strainers, 2 check valves, 2 heat exchangers, 2 boat loads of copper and brass fittings and a truck load of hangers. It seemed to be never ending but it is nice now.
> 
> My wood boiler is up a hill so I used a Tyco 0014 at the boiler, 90 feet of 1” pex into a manifold then split to go into the two separate basements. I have a second and third Tyco 0014 in each basement just before a strainer then into the heat exchangers and back up to the manifold and finally back to the boiler.



The cost to run those 3 TACO 0014's is not negligible either.  1.55amps X 120volts = 186 watts each   X 3 = 558 total watts.  Or basically .558Kwh.   If those circulators run 24/7 at my electric rate of   $0.15 that's $60/month.  Then there are the air handlers and Modines you mentioned. 

I guess what I'm saying is that in a typical OWB that is not pressureized (you need a HX and another high flow-low head pump) there are some significant operating costs of the circulating systems as well.

TS


----------



## heaterman

martyinmi said:


> Steve,
> In your mind, would an Econoburn OWB be any more efficient then,say, an E-Classic?
> Wouldn't a Garn in a barn, or any other European style gasser in an enclosure be near the 50% efficiency mark also, especially if the storage tanks were in the enclosure?
> I'm not a huge believer in the EPA's numbers any more than you are. When the Garn was tested, it tested right in there with some of the higher testing OWB gassers.
> I couldn't imagine any of the European indoor units being much more efficient, if any, at converting wood gas into heat than what the Garn is.
> If we presuppose that they (indoor units) operate at 85% efficiency and employ mass indoor storage, then I need to know where the 35% in efficiencies went, especially if we are not including system losses from underground piping, etc., as that would make efficiencies for the OWB gasser even lower.
> I'm aware that there are some losses from idle time, but any OWB gasser that I've seen shuts off the air completely when done cycling. If mine were to idle for more than about three hours, it would extinguish itself. I'm aware that there are some losses from the exhaust, and an OWB gassers exhaust losses would be higher than an indoor unit's, but how much? Radiant losses too, but how do we do a heat loss calculation? Has a study been done and published? How does one even calculate such losses?
> 
> Just to let everyone know, I consider Steve a friend. I've pm'd him on several occasions, and I've met him at his house and looked at his pellet boiler. He is one of the most intelligent HVAC professionals I've met.
> I simply want to understand, from a heating and cooling professional's point of view that I trust, where the extra 35% goes.
> 
> In other words Steve, I want to get into your head! Just for a quick visit though.
> 
> Marty



Talking about non gasser OWB's mainly Marty.
Some, albeit very few, of the OWB gassers do pretty decent.
I would not lump the Econoburn outdoor unit in with that group is it a totally different design than what is typically thought of when visualizing an OWB. IT is basically an indoor unit modified with a little "house" built around it.

No offense taken Marty. Stop in again if you get up this way sometime! The coffee pot is always on.


----------



## martyinmi

Kinda what I figured Steve.
I looked at precipitation amounts for your area the other day. It looks like you folks have received nearly 3x the snow that we have.
I'm thinking my new Jetta would need all wheel drive just to get within 50 miles of you!
No offense intended at all Steve. The coffee offer works both ways too. We have a Keurig with a half dozen different blends!


----------



## heaterman

I don't know exactly where you are so send me your address Marty. I've got a road trip on the schedule this week to Mt Pleasant and Shepherd area. One needs to get sized up for a Garn and the other guy is going with a Windhager. He's only about 3 miles from Maeder Brother pellet plant.
If there's time I may extend the journey and stop in. (Seems like you were around St Johns?)


----------



## Buzz Saw

Dspoon19, my sister & brother -in-law burn around 16 cords a year out of their CB E-classic.  They live down by Norwalk, Ohio so the weather is pretty similar to NE Ohio. 

FWIW When I do my set up it will be an indoor unit in an out building.  I'm going to build a workshop so why not put everything indoors?  The wood and boiler will have their own room in the the work shop.  All the mess will be in that room, non in the house(which the mess is in the house now and it drives me crazy) Heck I'll probably make the boiler room a lean to with it's own garage door for easy wood unloading.



BillsWS said:


> Wow, changing a pump when it is 10 below zero out?)



If something breaks down I'll be able to work on it in heated shelter with tools readily available.


----------



## dspoon19

Buzz Saw said:


> Dspoon19, my sister & brother -in-law burn around 16 cords a year out of their CB E-classic.  They live down by Norwalk, Ohio so the weather is pretty similar to NE Ohio.
> 
> FWIW When I do my set up it will be an indoor unit in an out building.  I'm going to build a workshop so why not put everything indoors?  The wood and boiler will have their own room in the the work shop.  All the mess will be in that room, non in the house(which the mess is in the house now and it drives me crazy) Heck I'll probably make the boiler room a lean to with it's own garage door for easy wood unloading.
> 
> 
> 
> If something breaks down I'll be able to work on it in heated shelter with tools readily available.


 
Yeah I'm in Lagrange so they are very close to me.  Wow that's a lot of wood.  I hope I'm not burning that much! 

After reading all of this and reviews from other websites I have compiled a spread sheet with 2 furnaces from each of the major MFG'ers. One of the furnaces being a gasser and the other a conventional OWB.  I am listing the quotes I've gotten, warranties, ease of maintenance/repairs, customer service quality, efficiencies (even though everyone claims that the combustion efficiencies are bogus), and just general quality of the units.  I think seeing everything laid out side-by-side will help me determine what I need to get. 

Are you running any kinda outdoor wood burning appliance right now?  If so what are your experiences?


----------



## sloeffle

I am south of you guys a few hours. If you need a spray foam guy for your PEX lines shoot me a PM and I can pass on his info.

Scott


----------



## Buzz Saw

dspoon19 said:


> Are you running any kinda outdoor wood burning appliance right now? If so what are your experiences?



I'm not running one, but I burn the hell out of my USSC hot blast furnace.  I know of scads and scads of people around that are using OBW and they all seem to burn tons and tons of wood. To be fair I don't think any of these guys season their wood properly.  My sister might have hers c/s/s 10 months or so before they start burning it. I didn't mention this in my first post, my sister's house is around 2000sqft with a 2000sqft detached garage(not very well insulated) that they heat, they also heat DHW.   I think with properly seasoned wood they could get it down a few cords.

Saturday I was talking  with a guy from Attica that has an OLD conventional indoor wood boiler.  Not sure how many sq feet he heats but he said usually burns around 6 cords.  

I've gone back and forth on what I'm going to do at my next house (inside vs outside) and I keep coming back to indoor.  I guess in the long run if you warm and your project is a success.  I'm really curious to see what you come up with as it could weigh in on my decisions in the future.


----------



## Buzz Saw

Heaterman,    Do you know anyone down here in Northern Ohio that does your quality of work you would recommend us buckeyes to talk to/work with?

thanks


----------



## dspoon19

Buzz Saw said:


> I'm not running one, but I burn the hell out of my USSC hot blast furnace.  I know of scads and scads of people around that are using OBW and they all seem to burn tons and tons of wood. To be fair I don't think any of these guys season their wood properly.  My sister might have hers c/s/s 10 months or so before they start burning it. I didn't mention this in my first post, my sister's house is around 2000sqft with a 2000sqft detached garage(not very well insulated) that they heat, they also heat DHW.   I think with properly seasoned wood they could get it down a few cords.
> 
> Saturday I was talking  with a guy from Attica that has an OLD conventional indoor wood boiler.  Not sure how many sq feet he heats but he said usually burns around 6 cords.
> 
> I've gone back and forth on what I'm going to do at my next house (inside vs outside) and I keep coming back to indoor.  I guess in the long run if you warm and your project is a success.  I'm really curious to see what you come up with as it could weigh in on my decisions in the future.


 


Yes this area seems to be more of an OWB area vs a gasser area.  The people that i know that burn are mostly farmers and for them the easiest way to feed a boiler is to drop a tree and leave the trunk and larger branches right by the boiler.  When it needs stoked they just go cut off a hunk and throw it right in or they cut off a hunk and split it and throw it in.  Very little if nothing is seasoned.  Most people I talk to around here burn between 5 and 8 cords depending on the year.

I have almost unlimited supply of free wood, most of it being osage orange, shag bark hickory, oak, and elm.  I season it properly and have it in 4-8" rounds x 2' long so there is no splitting.  I dont think my wood situation could get any better.  That said, I think getting a P&M BL28-40 will be my best bet.  Its a robust, high efficiency conventional boiler.  It cost $700 more than a CB 5036 but I think i'll get a better product and a more efficient product.  I dont see an outdoor gasser or an indoor gasser in an outside shed worth the money for me.  Still gathering numbes but so far thats how i'm leaning.


----------



## 2sons

FYI on the P&M BL28.  I talked to P&M last week and then said should burn somewhere between 10-15 cord a year.  14 year old well insulated cape cod, total hating of 3,000 sq. ft., 85 feet boiler to house, property located in central PA.  Any P&M seem to be a good boiler, but the P&M factory said there gasser in my climate should be about 8-10 cords.  I'm looking at an indoor gasser.  Been there done that on the OWB.  The one I got rid off ate wood and/or coal for breakfast, lunch and dinner.


----------



## Buzz Saw

dspoon19 said:


> I have almost unlimited supply of free wood, most of it being osage orange, shag bark hickory, oak, and elm.



Is it possible that this unlimited free wood could become limited or go away in the next 5-10 years?   The old saying "if it's too good to be true" keeps popping up in my head about your wood situation. B/c like you said



dspoon19 said:


> I dont think my wood situation could get any better.



Another thing to consider, at least for me, is someone else filling up the burner.  By someone else I mean the wife. I'm gonna play hell getting her all bundled up to go fire an OWB.  Sshe will have to slip on shoes and coat for the walk to the shed, but once inside she won't have cold snow blowing on her while she tries to wrestle big chunks of wood.

Ever thought of processing your unlimited free wood and selling it to pay for a gasser?  Best of both worlds?

Is there a P&M dealer in the area?  I haven't decided yet how important dealer support is going to be for me on my purchase.  Are there any gasser dealers in Ohio?



dspoon19 said:


> P&M BL28-40


   How much will this run?$$$$


----------



## dspoon19

2sons said:


> FYI on the P&M BL28.  I talked to P&M last week and then said should burn somewhere between 10-15 cord a year.  14 year old well insulated cape cod, total hating of 3,000 sq. ft., 85 feet boiler to house, property located in central PA.  Any P&M seem to be a good boiler, but the P&M factory said there gasser in my climate should be about 8-10 cords.  I'm looking at an indoor gasser.  Been there done that on the OWB.  The one I got rid off ate wood and/or coal for breakfast, lunch and dinner.




So at best would save 7 cords a year.  That is pretty significant in my book.  I am still young and foolish and I think I need to try the OWB.  For what I am paying now in propane I can live with the hassles while the boiler pays itself off in 2.5 heating seasons.


----------



## dspoon19

Buzz Saw said:


> Is it possible that this unlimited free wood could become limited or go away in the next 5-10 years?   The old saying "if it's too good to be true" keeps popping up in my head about your wood situation. B/c like you said
> 
> 
> 
> Another thing to consider, at least for me, is someone else filling up the burner.  By someone else I mean the wife. I'm gonna play hell getting her all bundled up to go fire an OWB.  Sshe will have to slip on shoes and coat for the walk to the shed, but once inside she won't have cold snow blowing on her while she tries to wrestle big chunks of wood.
> 
> Ever thought of processing your unlimited free wood and selling it to pay for a gasser?  Best of both worlds?
> 
> Is there a P&M dealer in the area?  I haven't decided yet how important dealer support is going to be for me on my purchase.  Are there any gasser dealers in Ohio?
> 
> How much will this run?$$$$




Every year Lorain cuts down hundreds of trees.  Most get chipped up and sold as mulch.  I know a lot of people that work for the city and can hook me up with free wood.  Lately I have been cutting at a horse farm that I found on craigslist that is closer to my house.  They needed their 40 acres of prime hardwood thinned out and I was happy to oblige.  Its not 100% I can always get free wood but id say its 97% for sure.  Even if I have to pay I found amish selling 3/4 cord bundles for $20. 

I've thought about that.  Good hardwood cords around here go for about $190.  I work a lot of hours for work now and wood prep for sales would cut into my hunting and fishing time even more!

There is a dealer in Mansfield.  He is hard to get ahold of and slow to get back to you.  I am trying to get ahold of P&M directly to see if they have another dealer in the area or if they do direct sales.  

Ive seen prices between 7K and 7.5K for the BL28-40.  Optimizer 250 will be more around 9K+ I think. 

Did get a Hawken Energy quote on a regular OWB, model HE-1130.  $6300 from dealer in Oberlin.  Hawken does make a gasser but I cant remember the price now. 

And a CB 5036 for $6600.  This is what most people have around me.


----------



## dspoon19

If anyone in the Michigan, PA, WV or KY area know of any P&M dealers please let me know!


----------



## hobbyheater

dspoon19 said:


> So at best would save 7 cords a year.  That is pretty significant in my book.  I am still young and foolish and I think I need to try the OWB.  For what I am paying now in propane I can live with the hassles while the boiler pays itself off in 2.5 heating seasons.


 
 You are right!  EXPERIENCE is the real teacher !


----------



## dspoon19

2sons said:


> FYI on the P&M BL28.  I talked to P&M last week and then said should burn somewhere between 10-15 cord a year.  14 year old well insulated cape cod, total hating of 3,000 sq. ft., 85 feet boiler to house, property located in central PA.  Any P&M seem to be a good boiler, but the P&M factory said there gasser in my climate should be about 8-10 cords.  I'm looking at an indoor gasser.  Been there done that on the OWB.  The one I got rid off ate wood and/or coal for breakfast, lunch and dinner.



Where abouts in central PA you from?  Do you have a good dealer close?  I run back and forth through PA all the time.


----------



## Buzz Saw

dspoon19,

Seems to me price point is a big deciding factor in your system build, or is there another factor I missed?  If that is the case have you check out this site?  http://www.smokelessheat.com/


The Vedolux 30 gasser looks to be the cheapest unit at about $6,200 and prices go up from there.   If you bought water storage tanks(propane tanks) at $1,000 the price would be very similar to 



dspoon19 said:


> Ive seen prices between 7K and 7.5K for the BL28-40. Optimizer 250 will be more around 9K+ I think.



I don't want you to think I'm trying to spend your money for you, but I'm vicariously living through your project since you are going to be finished before I even get started.  What do you think?


----------



## dspoon19

Buzz Saw said:


> dspoon19,
> 
> Seems to me price point is a big deciding factor in your system build, or is there another factor I missed?  If that is the case have you check out this site?  http://www.smokelessheat.com/
> 
> 
> The Vedolux 30 gasser looks to be the cheapest unit at about $6,200 and prices go up from there.   If you bought water storage tanks(propane tanks) at $1,000 the price would be very similar to
> 
> 
> 
> I don't want you to think I'm trying to spend your money for you, but I'm vicariously living through your project since you are going to be finished before I even get started.  What do you think?



Pricing is big for me.  I burn wood to save money so its all about the $/BTU for me. I don't do this for convenience because if that was the case I would just get geothermal or stick with propane.  Obviously I'm not going to start an open campfire outside and have a fan suck hot air in the house but I'm also not going to spend top dollar on a gasser because it saves me a few cords of wood.

I've burnt wood indoor for 25 years with my parents.  For me the process never made sense.  For them it was all they knew. 

My thoughts on burning indoors; you have to get the wood indoors somehow.  This means trekking the wood through the house into the basement or installing a wood shoot.  One costs money the other costs a lot of time.  Or you leave the wood outside close and go outside and get it, but I think this defeats the point of having an indoor system.  You will bring bugs, spider, fleas, ticks, and at some point you will bring in a few mice.  That's just part of bringing wood indoors.  I am not 100% sure on this but at some point your indoor furnace will probably have a back draft and smoke will come in the house for a second.  I like the smell of a fire burning but I like it when I want to smell it not when I am required to smell it.  Burning indoors your going to suck all moisture out of the air so you will have to keep a humidifier running to keep the house from drying up.  I can attribute many bloody noses to this cause when we first started burning we didn't have money for a humidifier.  You will have to go through the house with a bucket of hot ashes at some point.  There's also the risk of a fire hazard.  Plus I don't want my basement taken up with wood and a boiler room to contain the mess.

These are just some of the reasons I don't want to burn indoors.  And if I go with a  gasser and have to put it outside, then I have to construct a small shed for it (more money), then I gotta put the storage tank(s) somewhere.  Gassers are nice because they are low emissions and burn a few less cords of wood.  I think their upfront extra cost of the unit plus all the extras that go with it that a regular OWB do not require makes a world of difference long and short term.  I am still working on the spread sheet that shows the costs of both units and compares their cost per year and time savings over the life of the furnace.  I am going to assume a few scenarios.  First is that wood is free and second scenario that wood is not free.  I am also going to assume that a gasser burns have the wood.

I like that your asking questions and picking my brain about this.  It makes me think of all angles!


----------



## maple1

I'm not going to tell you which way to go, but...



dspoon19 said:


> My thoughts on burning indoors; you have to get the wood indoors somehow.  This means trekking the wood through the house into the basement or installing a wood shoot.  One costs money the other costs a lot of time. I roll mine in a basement entrance on a pallet jack. If I couldn't, I'd put a chute in a window at negligible cost  Or you leave the wood outside close and go outside and get it, but I think this defeats the point of having an indoor system.  You will bring bugs, spider, fleas, ticks, and at some point you will bring in a few mice. Knock the wood before you chute it & that will take care of most of that. I don't even do that, most just gets wheeled in and parked & I never have issues.  That's just part of bringing wood indoors.  I am not 100% sure on this but at some point your indoor furnace will probably have a back draft and smoke will come in the house for a second.  I like the smell of a fire burning but I like it when I want to smell it not when I am required to smell it. I do not have that issue at all. If I had an OWB in the yard I would get way more smoke in the house from the stack of it being so much lower, and wind at times blowing it to the house, and it making big smoke to start with. Burning indoors your going to suck all moisture out of the air so you will have to keep a humidifier running to keep the house from drying up.  I can attribute many bloody noses to this cause when we first started burning we didn't have money for a humidifier. False. Low indoor humidity is from bad air sealing & infiltration of dry outside air. No humidifiers running here, at all. Indoor burning does not suck moisture out of the air. You will have to go through the house with a bucket of hot ashes at some point. False. With a gassifier & batch burning, there are no hot coals left when you go to light a fire. Only cold ash, and maybe a few cold pieces of charcoal. I keep an old foundation coating bucket beside my fire door. I remove a small scoop worth of ash from my bottom chamber every time I make a new fire. The bucket stays right there until I need the ash outside on my icey driveway. There's also the risk of a fire hazard. My insurance company doesn't consider it much of a risk. Plus I don't want my basement taken up with wood and a boiler room to contain the mess. I can understand not wanting to lose the space - but no extra measures or rooms are needed to contain the mess. All of my stuff is in one end of mine, not much mess at all.


 
I can appreciate a decision to go outdoors - but it should be an informed one.

Sounds like your mind is made up to do that - I would go with a gassifier. After you pay for it you will need to live with it for hopefully a long time - that long time is when you will appreciate the reduced wood consumption & smoke production. The initial price difference will then seem quite insignificant.


----------



## dspoon19

maple1 said:


> I'm not going to tell you which way to go, but...
> 
> 
> 
> I can appreciate a decision to go outdoors - but it should be an informed one.
> 
> Sounds like your mind is made up to do that - I would go with a gassifier. After you pay for it you will need to live with it for hopefully a long time - that long time is when you will appreciate the reduced wood consumption & smoke production. The initial price difference will then seem quite insignificant.


 

Those were just my observations from indoor burning for 22 years.  I think I will have to "live" a shorter time with the OWB.  Most people around me are 10 cords or less.  Besides saving time, what does spending the extra money on the boiler get me?  Fuel is free so count that out.  I'm still going to have to go out and feed both types.  What does spending the extra money get me besides an estimated 10 hours max of wood cutting time savings? 

Theoretically if the house is sealed air tight, and the only moisture in the house comes from the occupants, and the furnace combustion air blower takes in the same air that is in the house, shouldn't the moisture in the air be sent out the flue?  The furnace has to breathe from somewhere correct?  So where does it take in air from?  An outside source?  If so then that's OK.  But if it sucks in air through all of the air leaks in your house, doesn't it bring in cold dry air with it?  This would go against the purpose of heating the house and trying to keep moisture at an acceptable level?

You have to make a new fire every time you clean out the ashes?


----------



## 2sons

A very good dealer in central PA is Twin Springs Plumbing and Heating in Somerset, PA.  http://twinspringsheating.com/  Ask for Matt he is a good fellow and will answer all your questions honestly and not just tell you what you may want to hear.  They are selling a lot of the Nature's Comfort as well.  I was more curious than anything when I called the P&M factory about a price on a BL2840 with the shakers.  The quote was $8,300.  Matt had one for sale last week on ebay at $7,885. 

I agree with you about some of the short falls of bringing wood in the house, but I work a lot of hours as well and found out cutting wood to _keep up_ with heating the house was not near as much fun as cutting wood to heat the house.  These things do eat a lot of wood.  It appears everyone I have talked to and what I've read around the net says a gasser of any kind will use less wood.  When it comes right down to it how much is all relative as there are so many variables to consider.  You could install the outdoor boiler I had and may cut less or more.  Like I said lots of variables.  One thing about the outdoor gassers is that everyone I talk to says there is a learning curve to firing them, and generally more maintenance than an indoor one. 

No doubt about it with today's oil and lp gas prices the outdoor boiler will pay for itself.  But there is a lot of work involved and life doesn't afford me the time like it did when I first got it to feed it.  On the flip side, a guy down the road built his own home made OWB and figures he will use about 6 cords this winter.  Then again he was on the junkyard wars some years ago so could probably make an old pinto heat his house.  By the way, he built our house as well as his, and his house is very similar to ours but has more square footage.


----------



## maple1

*So at best would save 7 cords a year. That is pretty significant in my book.*

*Besides saving time, what does spending the extra money on the boiler get me? Fuel is free so count that out.*

You're contradicting yourself again. Either the wood you burn has value to you, or it doesn't - I'm reading you saying both in different places.

*So where does it take in air from? An outside source? If so then that's OK.*

Mine comes from a slightly cracked open basement window right behind my boiler. Moisture from other places such as showers, cooking, & drying laundry will more than make up what will go up the flue in a tight house.

*You have to make a new fire every time you clean out the ashes?*

No - I make a new fire every day. And when I do I scoop a few ashes out before doing so. That is life batch burning a gassifier to storage. I made one fire a year in my old one, sometime in October - but I wouldn't go back to that way now for anything.

I think you have your mind made up - so good luck.


----------



## dspoon19

dspoon19 said:


> Those were just my observations from indoor burning for 22 years.  I think I will have to "live" a shorter time with the OWB.  Most people around me are 10 cords or less.  Besides saving time, what does spending the extra money on the boiler get me?  Fuel is free so count that out.  I'm still going to have to go out and feed both types.  What does spending the extra money get me besides an estimated 10 hours max of wood cutting time savings?
> 
> Theoretically if the house is sealed air tight, and the only moisture in the house comes from the occupants, and the furnace combustion air blower takes in the same air that is in the house, shouldn't the moisture in the air be sent out the flue?  The furnace has to breathe from somewhere correct?  So where does it take in air from?  An outside source?  If so then that's OK.  But if it sucks in air through all of the air leaks in your house, doesn't it bring in cold dry air with it?  This would go against the purpose of heating the house and trying to keep moisture at an acceptable level?
> 
> You have to make a new fire every time you clean out the ashes?


----------



## Fred61

"Esperiesia docet" is Latin for "experience is the best teacher". The Romans figured it out a long time ago. Some people are able to shorten the learning process by taking advice from people that have lived the real world experiences while others will not take advice and move blindly forward. There is no reason to stress out or even sympathize when you know they are headed in the wrong direction. You've done your part.


----------



## heaterman

I suppose it would be fruitless to bring up the pollution caused by nearly all non-gasification equipment.
I suppose that it would also be fruitless to mention that a typical OWB emits as much smoke and particulates as 600 packs of cigarettes being smoked in your yard. Every day.
I suppose that the link between childhood asthma and a high particulate environment would also make no difference.
I suppose mentioning that a typical OWB emits as much air pollution into your yard as 4 diesel semi's idling there all day would make no difference either.

It's the American way. What's the cheapest and there is nothing else to consider........

PS.....One of my 4 wood burning sons has an OWB (came with the house when he bought it) and he cannot wait until the day when he can ditch it. He is tired of the endless cutting splitting hauling stacking loading day and night through the snow and cold. He is tired of the mountain of ashes he has to deal with. He is tired of the smoke blowing through his yard and stinking up the house when the wind is wrong. He is ready to be done with hearing his neighbor (1/4 mile away) complain about the smoke and odor.......
As they said above......some learn from others experience, some learn the hard way. Your choice.


----------



## Fred61

I learned my lesson when I was still a child. We didn't have a lot---OK we were poor. Not poor like today but back when poor people were skinny for lack of food. We are now live in a consumable society that has never learned to conserve anything. What's wrong with saving that extra 7 cords for down the road or for the good of someone else?

Perhaps the OWB will rot out about the same time those extra cords of wood start becoming more difficult to process because of your age and physical ability.


----------



## hobbyheater

Dspoon 19!

Do you understand the concept of the load required to make a outdoor gasification burn as a gasifier?
P&M 250 Optimizer max output 190,000 BTUs per hour with a load of 10,000 BTUs per hour.  Will this load verse output work?


----------



## skfire

Fred61 said:


> I learned my lesson when I was still a child. We didn't have a lot---OK we were poor. Not poor like today but back when poor people were skinny for lack of food. We are now live in a consumable society that has never learned to conserve anything. What's wrong with saving that extra 7 cords for down the road or for the good of someone else?
> 
> Perhaps the OWB will rot out about the same time those extra cords of wood start becoming more difficult to process because of your age and physical ability.




BRAVO!!
Well said sir!!

Scott


----------



## skfire

Fred61 said:


> "Esperiesia docet" is Latin for "experience is the best teacher". The Romans figured it out a long time ago. Some people are able to shorten the learning process by taking advice from people that have lived the real world experiences while others will not take advice and move blindly forward. There is no reason to stress out or even sympathize when you know they are headed in the wrong direction. You've done your part.




http://www.ascd.org/publications/ed...t09/vol67/num01/What-Would-Socrates-Say¢.aspx

out of left field maybe, but very relevant to the point  Fred is raising..in my mind it explains the issues...maybe we are going about it the wrong way....it is more of a systemic problem manifesting itself in a individualized format..

Sorry for the tangential vector...but again that is part of the intelligence in this forum.

Scott


----------



## MarkW

Started reading that link, skfire.  It just makes me mad.  Only because it's true. Critical thinking is dying quickly.  Two girls I've got at home prove it daily.  Asked to make grilled cheese this week, all we got was "I don't know how".  We suggested they figure it out...lost cause.
I'm convinced the majority of the would will die within a few weeks if there were ever a global calamity that destroyed the power grid.


----------



## dspoon19

heaterman said:


> I suppose it would be fruitless to bring up the pollution caused by nearly all non-gasification equipment.
> I suppose that it would also be fruitless to mention that a typical OWB emits as much smoke and particulates as 600 packs of cigarettes being smoked in your yard. Every day.
> I suppose that the link between childhood asthma and a high particulate environment would also make no difference.
> I suppose mentioning that a typical OWB emits as much air pollution into your yard as 4 diesel semi's idling there all day would make no difference either.
> 
> It's the American way. What's the cheapest and there is nothing else to consider........
> 
> PS.....One of my 4 wood burning sons has an OWB (came with the house when he bought it) and he cannot wait until the day when he can ditch it. He is tired of the endless cutting splitting hauling stacking loading day and night through the snow and cold. He is tired of the mountain of ashes he has to deal with. He is tired of the smoke blowing through his yard and stinking up the house when the wind is wrong. He is ready to be done with hearing his neighbor (1/4 mile away) complain about the smoke and odor.......
> As they said above......some learn from others experience, some learn the hard way. Your choice.


 

I would like to learn more about the particulate emissions of the two boilers.  Every where I look they just say "lowered emissions".  Where can I find up-to-date particulate information on both standard OWB's and gasification units?

I have honestly not considered particulate emission up until this point and would like to learn more.


----------



## dspoon19

Does anyone out there have first hand experience with both an OWB and a gasser unit?  If you do, do you have side by side numbers to compare everything?  Cost, emissions, combustion efficiency, heat transfer efficiency.  I want all numbers side by side under identical real world conditions. 

If everyone cared about efficiencies we would all drive a Toyota Prius.  It has efficiency, low particulate emissions, and gets the job done.  Based on theory it should be the perfect car and everyone should have one.  Theory is just that.  I am here for real world numbers.


----------



## hobbyheater

dspoon19 said:


> I want real world conditions.
> .





This is real world conditions temp minus 5 c  ! Jetstream  gasification boiler at full output air is just hot enough to be uncomfortable to breath  , the air smells no different than the air that would come out of a furnaces hot air duct .


----------



## flyingcow

I"ve shared my experience(with my gasser) plus the info I've gotten from two sources on the e-classic. Based on comparison with oil use history. Plus everyone else has chimed in. There is no consumer reports. For me it was I wanted to handle less wood for my roi.


----------



## henfruit

Went to see a potential customer today. He is burn a free heat machine seven years old. He is tired of burning 22 cord a year. I asked about the pex he has in the ground, he said he gets minimal snow melt! Time for some new in ground and a new boiler.


----------



## Buzz Saw

dspoon19 said:


> So at best would save 7 cords a year.



dspoon,if you saved 7 cords a year that would be 70 cords in 10 years.  How much extra time would you gain back not handling 70 cords of wood?  Time =money or wood cutting time= less hunting fishing time. Maybe that is a factor to consider.


----------



## arbutus

I was where you were with cost.  Putting an indoor boiler outdoors in an 8 x 12 shed, enough room for the boiler and a cord of wood, with the ability to add a lean to for additional wood storage later on.  Put it near the back door or garage door, close but still out of the house.  Indoor gasification boiler -Eko, Attack, Biomass, etc - (apparently good units with several users here) $4-6k, + $1500 in a good shed seems like it's comparable to your traditional OWB cost.  Figure additional money for underground piping, pump, wiring, etc being equal for both scenarios.

The question is wood quality and quantity.


----------



## Buzz Saw

dspoon19 said:


> My thoughts on burning indoors; you have to get the wood indoors somehow. This means trekking the wood through the house into the basement or installing a wood shoot. One costs money the other costs a lot of time. Or you leave the wood outside close and go outside and get it, but I think this defeats the point of having an indoor system. You will bring bugs, spider, fleas, ticks, and at some point you will bring in a few mice. That's just part of bringing wood indoors. I am not 100% sure on this but at some point your indoor furnace will probably have a back draft and smoke will come in the house for a second. I like the smell of a fire burning but I like it when I want to smell it not when I am required to smell it. Burning indoors your going to suck all moisture out of the air so you will have to keep a humidifier running to keep the house from drying up. I can attribute many bloody noses to this cause when we first started burning we didn't have money for a humidifier. You will have to go through the house with a bucket of hot ashes at some point. There's also the risk of a fire hazard. Plus I don't want my basement taken up with wood and a boiler room to contain the mess.



I totally agree.  However for me burning less wood the better.  My wood is "free" as well.  I just have to fuel up the tractors,splitter, saws, UTV  after I have driven to the farm with my truck and trailer.  Right now I'm lucky that I cut wood with my dad and uncle for now, but they are getting old. Dad is 67 and uncle Donnie is 63.  In 10 years they don't be much help so I'll be on my own.  I'm going to try and process as much wood in the future as now BUT what I don't need is going to heat my parent's house and maybe my uncles place too.  The less wood I need to burn keeps that much more money in  my parents' pockets.   

Plus once I move to the farm I'm going to be building a workshop, so why not put the everything indoors.  If you have no ambition for an outbuilding I can see why you lean towards a normal OWB.    I also want to heat the workshop so I'm sure my heat loads will be higher than yours so if I can stretch a chunk of wood a little further that makes sense to me.


----------



## Buzz Saw

Oh another thing to consider is what would be the price difference per year over the life of the OWB vs INB in an insulated shed?  If you got 15 more years of service with an IWB would that be financially beneficial?

So if OWB project cost $10,000 and lasted 10 years = $1,000 a year

        IWB project cost $15,000 and lasted 25 years = $600 a year.

**These number are just round numbers I used for an example**


----------



## Buzz Saw

FWIW  Just found out Wolff Brothers is an Econoburn dealer.  There is a branch in Medina.

Check it out.  No idea about pricing.
http://www.wolffbros.com/cgi-bin/la...TURL)=ECONOBURN_INDOOR_WOOD-FIRED_BOILERS_EBW


----------



## skfire

FACTS FOR "CHEWAGE"

1.UG PIPING(DONE RIGHT) + HX + CHEMS(ANNUALLY)+ SHED(+ADDED ANNUAL  
   TAXES IF APPLICABLE) = BIG $$$$

2. 7 OR MORE  CORDS TO PROCESS...EVERY YEAR FOR THE LIFE OF THE OWB(6-10
   YRS WITH SERIOUS MAINTENANCE SINCE NO STORAGE, ESPECIALLY A NON
   GASSER OWB)...

3.FIGURE IN PRICES FOR NEW DOORS, CHIMNEYS, GRATES EVERY COUPLE OF
YEARS..

4. & WORST CASE SCENARIO...IN 6 YEARS...KAPUT...THEN HERE WE GO AGAIN
    ANOTHER  7Gs(INFLATION TO 8or9) FOR A NEW  ONE...

SEEMS MONEY DOES GROW ON TREES!!

WAS NOT WORTH IT TO ME.
PLENTY OF DOCUMENTATION IN THIS FORUM OF RESEARCH AND EXPERIENCES WITH BOTH.

SK


----------



## dspoon19

Buzz Saw said:


> dspoon,if you saved 7 cords a year that would be 70 cords in 10 years.  How much extra time would you gain back not handling 70 cords of wood?  Time =money or wood cutting time= less hunting fishing time. Maybe that is a factor to consider.




Yes it does add up over time.  I would save about 150 hours of time over 10 years.


----------



## maple1

I don't know about others, but 2.1 hours per cord of wood does not compute at all with my experience in getting a cord of wood ready to burn. I think 70 cords would come out to something closer to 700 hours than 150.

I'm out - again.....


----------



## dspoon19

maple1 said:


> I don't know about others, but 2.1 hours per cord of wood does not compute at all with my experience in getting a cord of wood ready to burn. I think 70 cords would come out to something closer to 700 hours than 150.
> 
> I'm out - again.....




your right...I was off.  im averaging a half cord per 2 hours.  so 300 hours of savings.


----------



## dspoon19

Does anyone know where I could find up to date info on particulate emissions for newer standard OWB's?


Buzz Saw said:


> dspoon19,
> 
> Seems to me price point is a big deciding factor in your system build, or is there another factor I missed?  If that is the case have you check out this site?  http://www.smokelessheat.com/
> 
> 
> The Vedolux 30 gasser looks to be the cheapest unit at about $6,200 and prices go up from there.   If you bought water storage tanks(propane tanks) at $1,000 the price would be very similar to
> 
> 
> 
> I don't want you to think I'm trying to spend your money for you, but I'm vicariously living through your project since you are going to be finished before I even get started.  What do you think?



Havent read the fine print on the lifetime warranty but that might sway my decision if its a better warranty.  I like the P&M designs, I like that they are both outdoors, now the question is which one.  If I think for a second the gasser makes more sense but for some reason the bl28-40 seems like a good idea.  I really need to take a closer look at my heating usage numbers and use that to help make the final decision.  I got the particulate information for the gasser but cant find any info on the bl28-40.  I'm not saying ive been talked into a gasser yet but I am taking a closer look at it.
*SpecificationsULTIMIZER BL28-40
SpecificationsOptimizer 250 Wood Gasification Unit*
Maximum Furnace Output (BTU/hour)225,000Maximum Furnace Output (BTU/hour)Up to 190,000
Heating Area (sq. ft.)4,000 plusHeating Area (sq. ft.)5,000
Size Total W x D x H44” x 62” x 77”Size Total W x D x H47" X 66" X 81"
Shipping Weight (lbs)2,300Shipping Weight (lbs)3,030 lbs
Chimney Size6”Chimney Size6”
Door Size W x H19” x 15”Door Size W x H18” x 20”
Fire Chamber W x H x L28” x 35” x 40”Fire Chamber W x H x L / Cubic Feet28” x 30” x 30” / 11
Surround Fire Brick Height12”Water Capacity (US gallons)240
Water Capacity (US gallons)*90Horizontal Fire Tubes20 (1.5" diameter)
Horizontal Flat Tube Heat Exchanger6” x 10” x 7’ ***Vertical Fire Tubes6 (2" diameter)
Heat ExchangerMulti-Pass Reverse TurnMaximum Log Length26"
Maximum Log Length40”Split or suggested Log diameter4"to 6"
Split Wood or Suggested Log DiameterWill burn wood as large as you want to handle**Power Draft MotorPositive Pressure
Electrical Requirement120 VoltElectrical Requirement120 Volt
Power Draft MotorYesHeat ExchangerTriple Pass
Limited Warranty20 Year Limited WarrantyLifetime
$7,900                                                                              $11,500


----------



## martyinmi

dspoon19,
Whether you buy an indoor unit or an outdoor unit, make sure it is a gasifier. Period.
You'll be doing yourself a favor by not having so much work.
You'll be doing your neighbors a favor by not choking them out.
Almost 7 pages. I'm exhausted!

BTW, BUY A GASSER

Gassers=Good

Conventional=Bad


----------



## 2sons

First link is epa rated outdoor gassers.  The second is an older article (also good for insomniacs); might be able to glean some info from it while wadding through the government speak.

http://www.epa.gov/burnwise/owhhlist.html

http://woodheat.org/attachments/article/NYSOBreport.pdf


----------



## Vizsla

dspoon19 said:


> Thanks for laying this out there!  I was hoping someone could break down the "total cost" of a gasser system.  Now I would like to see a comparable regular OWB system broke down.  Is all the ancillary equipment really 4K?  I was just quoted a Hawken OWB for 6300 and the dealer said total would be around 8500 with all fittings, pumps, piping, etc.  I know the good pex is expensive but besides that its just ball valves, a taco recirc. pump, filter, HX'er and misc. copper fittings.  I don't see how all those things could all add up to $2200 for me.   I am an engineer and have been designing industrial glass melting furnaces for years and I know the cost of the equipment that goes with the actual furnace is expensive but no where near the actual tank cost!  Thanks though for sharing your experiences!



An engineer and your having trouble understanding a simple material take off and cost differences. Something doesn't sound right, cause your asking to be spoon fed a lot of easily access able  information. Usually engineers have this all figured out and then ask questions.  I'm not convinced your an engineer at all, especially when saving 7 cord seems insignificant. Or cost analysis over life of boiler, that alone would make the decision pretty easy. Especially when 95% of OWB will be out of biz shortly after clean burning standards go into effect. I'm sure several will reopen under whatever name seems catchy. But what warranty coverage there might be now, won't be there for future support.

There's no such thing as buying a cheaper OWB system when looking beyond initial cost. I would love to see a $2200 install package. I can hear the trees shivering


----------



## heaterman

Sad to say but there are no valid comparisons to be drawn from the total FAIL that was the EPA emissions tests of 2-3 years ago. The test method was so badly flawed that the numbers generated are regarded as nearly worthless by the honest engineers in the industry.
I mean.........who uses square sawn, 4x4" kiln dried red oak, cribbed and nailed together in a stack in the firebox? Most guys I know using an OWB consider wood to be seasoned if they cut it in July and start burning in October.

I had to opportunity to work a little bit with a guy from the DEQ air quality division from Michigan a few years ago. He and I corresponded a bit about the testing itself and their findings. That test was actual real world measurements of how a typical OWB performs. His name was Brian Brady and I've lost track of him because he doesn't work in the same capacity anymore.
He was involved in research some of the northern tier Midwestern states were doing to determine the extent of particulate emissions and efficiency of 7 different brands of boilers. They called them an OWHH (outdoor woodfired hydronic heater) because technically speaking they are not boilers. To my knowledge this study was not published due to some constraints imposed by funding of the project. 

They set up monitoring stations around some OWB's at varying distances to measure how much particulate matter was in the air plume downwind of these units. They found even at distances of 1/2 mile away from the unit there were still enough particulates in the air to have an effect on people the same as the smog in Los Angeles. 
At distances under a couple hundred yards the particulate levels were about equivalent to what a person doing a pack a day would put in their lungs.

When they tested for efficiency, using properly seasoned wood, they found that the average of the 7 models tested was in the 33-34% range with the worst one coming in at 28% and the best only hitting 41% if I recall correctly. So basically a person using a traditional OWB is doing twice as much work as a person using an indoor gasification unit. He's also putting hazardous levels of fine particulates (the size that get waaaay down into your lungs) into the air right in his own personal environment.
From what I have seen, most of the newer units that feature (supposedly) gasification type burns, are only marginally better.


----------



## dspoon19

Vizsla said:


> An engineer and your having trouble understanding a simple material take off and cost differences. Something doesn't sound right, cause your asking to be spoon fed a lot of easily access able  information. Usually engineers have this all figured out and then ask questions.  I'm not convinced your an engineer at all, especially when saving 7 cord seems insignificant. Or cost analysis over life of boiler, that alone would make the decision pretty easy. Especially when 95% of OWB will be out of biz shortly after clean burning standards go into effect. I'm sure several will reopen under whatever name seems catchy. But what warranty coverage there might be now, won't be there for future support.
> 
> There's no such thing as buying a cheaper OWB system when looking beyond initial cost. I would love to see a $2200 install package. I can hear the trees shivering




I ran the numbers long ago.  It is cheaper to go with an OWB period.  I would save on wood processing and particulate emissions.  With the small heat load I have wood processing savings do not justify the cost for me.  As someone mentioned earlier, a pellet stove might be the way to go for me.  Now that we have been getting into particulate emissions I am more interested.  I still don't think the gasser (for me) is worth it but I am taking a second hard look at them now.


----------



## hobbyheater

The PDF  pages are from  the Jetstream manual on the principles of clean burning and the benefits from using storage. Please read!

No offense meant to be made by what I'm going to say, but I'm trying to draw a comparison or illustration. You have seen how your parents blind-fully burned wood indoors with the mess associated with it. You are about to do the same thing, only outdoors.
I have stated previously stated that we burned wood in two pre-gasification boilers and lived with the associated problems because there was nothing better to be had in that time period.  For 30 plus years, we have used gasification with storage and fully understand the benefits.
Everyone who has posted in this thread is only trying to steer you in the right direction!
For your parents for their time, there was no better way.  Now there is a better and more responsible way, but it is not by making an even bigger mess outside.
I myself and many on this forum enjoy the freedom of being able to heat our homes with wood and do so in a responsible way.


----------



## dspoon19

hobbyheater said:


> The PDF  pages are from  the Jetstream manual on the principles of clean burning and the benefits from using storage. Please read!
> 
> No offense meant to be made by what I'm going to say, but I'm trying to draw a comparison or illustration. You have seen how your parents blind-fully burned wood indoors with the mess associated with it. You are about to do the same thing, only outdoors.
> I have stated previously stated that we burned wood in two pre-gasification boilers and lived with the associated problems because there was nothing better to be had in that time period.  For 30 plus years, we have used gasification with storage and fully understand the benefits.
> Everyone who has posted in this thread is only trying to steer you in the right direction!
> For your parents for their time, there was no better way.  Now there is a better and more responsible way, but it is not by making an even bigger mess outside.
> I myself and many on this forum enjoy the freedom of being able to heat our homes with wood and do so in a responsible way.


 

No offense taken at all.  I have tried for years to talk my parents out of their indoor wood burning insert.  They heat about 1800 sq ft and run through 5-5.5 cords per year.  House stays around 70-72 degrees.  We have no good way of getting wood into the house except going through the living room to the fireplace.  Ash drawer was emptied with sometimes still glowing coals in it.  This had to be taken back through the living room to go outside.  There are still small burn holes in the carpet where one would pop on the way to the door.  So you can see why I am slightly paranoid about wanting everything outside. 

I think gasification with storage is great use of the energy.  At this point I don't have the money or a good place to put storage.  I know the extra up front cost of the gasser with storage and everything is best for the long run in wood savings and environmental issues.  Its just hard to stomach the up front hit.   Can I draw a fair comparison to a gasser with storage like a standard hot water tank, and a gasser without storage to a instant hot water (tank less) system?


----------



## skfire

dspoon19 said:


> No offense taken at all.  I have tried for years to talk my parents out of their indoor wood burning insert.  They heat about 1800 sq ft and run through 5-5.5 cords per year.  House stays around 70-72 degrees.  We have no good way of getting wood into the house except going through the living room to the fireplace.  Ash drawer was emptied with sometimes still glowing coals in it.  This had to be taken back through the living room to go outside.  There are still small burn holes in the carpet where one would pop on the way to the door.  So you can see why I am slightly paranoid about wanting everything outside.
> 
> I think gasification with storage is great use of the energy.  At this point I don't have the money or a good place to put storage.  I know the extra up front cost of the gasser with storage and everything is best for the long run in wood savings and environmental issues.  Its just hard to stomach the up front hit.   Can I draw a fair comparison to a gasser with storage like a standard hot water tank, and a gasser without storage to a instant hot water (tank less) system?




On your first paragraph, you are comparing apples to oranges.
Your experience with the indoors insert issues has no bearing on the indoor gasser operation(assuming decent practices). My grandfather's stove glowed red some nights, the house had a fine layer of ash come spring time..etc....most of us have been there, it does not make it same today.

On your second paragraph, I think a closer investigation of values and total expenses is warranted prior to making assumptions on final costs. As to the final question, no.

I think you need to break every single cost down, add them up and then do same for pros vs cons involved but not based on your assumptions, but rather the hard data you will easily find in this forum, not too mention this thread alone...like marty said..7 pages...and I assure you there are about 1500 hundred more on this topic(that is how I joined),,,,,dig

Me out.(Maple 1 like)

Good luck

Scott

ps: I as well started like you, same criteria....and thanks to the great folks in here, I quickly immersed myself into the particulars and did a complete 180..but it took a serious amount of researching and analysis. If you are an eng, this should be cake and even easier to come to an educated decision.


----------



## hobbyheater

dspoon19 said:


> t.   Can I draw a fair comparison to a gasser with storage like a standard hot water tank, and a gasser without storage to a instant hot water (tank less) system?




The comparison you are trying to draw does not make sense to me!
Real life experiments.
1  Our oil boiler backup with DHW, a demand unit that held 2 1/2 gallons, would use 3 gallons per day or 21 gallons per week in standby mode. When connected to storage, that figure dropped to 9 gallons per week.
2 When we wanted to switch to a electric demand boiler for backup, none of the local suppliers could tell us what KW capacity would be required even though we knew our daily load.  So I bought two 40 gallon hot water tanks; quality Tanks with good insulation.  They almost could do the job of heating the house but could not supply the water hot enough to be truly successful.  But what was discovered in the milder months with low load draw, the electric hot water tanks were more economical to operate as opposed to the electric demand boiler.  Hard to understand but a fact.
The electric boiler does not heat the storage at this time.  If we ever get lower off peak rates, I will hook the electric boiler up to the storage tank.


----------



## flyingcow

Don't get hung up on that a gasser needs storage. Build
s small out building. Plus a shed to store wood in. You'll need that shed even if you do a owb. Shed plus an eko will be very comparable in price. Or buy the econoburn owb. That's a true gasser.  But as heater man pointed out they out their own shell around it. Storage helps a little bit with effiency but its more for convience.  If cost is your concern go pick a used smoke dragon on Craig's list. Best way t keep costs down and see how it goes.


----------



## flyingcow

But for god sakes don't cheap out on the underground piping!


I still think an air sourced HP is something for you to look at.


----------



## Countryboy1966

HI folks long time no post, but I wanted to chime in.  I purchased an old indoor 140K btu fire king and the gas shed for $200 on craigslist in 2007.  I used that unit and another $1700 in materials to heat my house until 2013/14 year when I moved into my new property.  My tenant uses that boiler and enjoys its use.

It burns about 10-12 cords a year, but works very well IMO.  There are areas in which it needs to be improved upon but we are addressing them as we go on.

I'm reading how OWB's last 7-8 years for some and I have to be honest that this unit from 1979 works just fine.  I think the necessity is that you have to have a sense of mechanical aptitude to get the true value out of them.  I don't understand why some units only last 8 years.  Metal doesn't disappear.  I weld and work on mine all the time, but the cost of the unit and a couple extra cord of wood was an opportunity cost I was willing to pay to forgo an expensive unit.

My new house has a wood furnace in it.  I've burned 5 cords of wood so far this year so this has me wondering.  I think the advantage of having the unit inside the house has been a benefit.  Problem now is the garage is detached and I have a machine shop that needs to be heated.  New plan is to put a boiler system in the garage and send a line to the house for an A coil.  We shall see what next year brings.

All I can say is sometimes a cheap unit is beneficial to learn from such as I did.  Since 2007, I have not paid a cent for fuel oil and the fact that I'm still a fat ass tells me I'm not having to cut too much wood.


----------



## Vizsla

2sons said:


> First link is epa rated outdoor gassers.  The second is an older article (also good for insomniacs); might be able to glean some info from it while wadding through the government speak.
> 
> http://www.epa.gov/burnwise/owhhlist.html
> 
> http://woodheat.org/attachments/article/NYSOBreport.pdf





dspoon19 said:


> I ran the numbers long ago.  It is cheaper to go with an OWB period.  I would save on wood processing and particulate emissions.
> 
> I know the extra up front cost of the gasser with storage and everything is best for the long run in wood savings and environmental issues. Its just hard to stomach the up front hit.



Nope not an engineer, I don't think they get this easily confused and contradict themselves.  Using figures calculated long ago?   And all those reasons for not wanting an indoor unit, are almost word for word out of a OWB sales training binder.  Hmmmm.... Best gasser OWB overall thermal efficiency 30's% and who knows what will be lost to underground lines. Even a single degree is a few million BTU's over a heating season.     Versus many other well proven and documented other options. Indoor or outdoor.....it's OK many cannot see past the initial cheap price. And their counting on it.  Good luck either way


----------



## Fred61

I'll sit the rest of this one out in the peanut gallery with SKFIRE


----------



## dspoon19

Vizsla said:


> Nope not an engineer, I don't think they get this easily confused and contradict themselves.  Using figures calculated long ago?   And all those reasons for not wanting an indoor unit, are almost word for word out of a OWB sales training binder.  Hmmmm.... Best gasser OWB overall thermal efficiency 30's% and who knows what will be lost to underground lines. Even a single degree is a few million BTU's over a heating season.     Versus many other well proven and documented other options. Indoor or outdoor.....it's OK many cannot see past the initial cheap price. And their counting on it.  Good luck either way


 

8 gallons of propane per day @ 91330 btu/gallon = 30443 btu/hr required

I burn no less 20 MMBTU/cord content wood with low moisture content.

Assume a gasser has an overall eff. of 80% and a regular OWB has 30%.

I would need 1.32 cords/month to feed the gasser.  and a total of 7.25 cords for the total 5.5 month heating season.
I would need 1.86 cords/month to feed the OWB and a total of 10.25 cords for the total 5.5 month heating season.

I would save 3 cords per year.  Wood is free so I save no $.  I only save about 12 hours of time each year and I save the few extra lbs of particulate matter.   

Are those overall efficiencies assumptions in the ball park?  Am I doing something wrong in my calculations?


----------



## hobbyheater

dspoon19 said:


> .  Wood is free  $.  I  matter.   ?




http://akroncanton.craigslist.org/for/4322979051.html


----------



## heaterman

Seriously.......If your heating load is that low why are you even thinking about a wood boiler?

Go with a good heat pump, enjoy the 30% tax credit and never have to lift a finger.
If you want to cut wood just for the sake of exercise go ahead and cut to your hearts content.
Sell it and you'll have the HP paid for with a couple years production.


----------



## flyingcow

Even living where I live, I like the efficiency of the HP's.  If i ever rebuild it will be a house with r-40 walls and r-60 ceilings. And more than likely an air sourced HP as my main heat. This wood thing has been fun for a while, but damn it's easy to press a button and be warm....or have A/C. My 18,000btu unit cost about $4200. to have installed.


----------



## heaterman

That's the biggest complaint I hear about HP's also. They do move a lot of air to get the job done. A heat pump, short of a water to water unit running a radiant floor will never be a comfortable as a hydronic based heating system.

Most of the issues I see however are because of three main areas:

1.the person doing the install cheaped out on duct sizing, 
2.sized the whole system short of actual heat load or 
3.flat out didn't know what he was doing.


----------



## dspoon19

I don't know much about heat pumps.  These can be either water or air sourced? They last about 15 years?  Any ideas on total cost of system plus average yearly operating cost?

I calc'd it out that electric heat per unit is slightly cheaper than propane @ $2/gallon so I would have to install an electric heat supplement system. 

My buddy down the street with geothermal and a similar house has outrageous electric bills because his supplemental electric heat has to help out.  Summer cooling for him is real cheap though.  He did say that his heat never feels "warm", so he burns in an insert to help out on the weekends to take the chill off. 


Are there any smaller outdoor wood burning appliances that would suit my heating requirements? 

Is it wise to say that I can add load to the boiler to make it more efficient?  Like add a garage loop? or buy a hot tub?  Eventually I might use more of the BTU's that the furnace can provide to heat the pole barn I plan to build. 

I have been thinking about designing one and sending the prints to the local fab shop for quote.  I'd do all the assembly and controls myself.  I just don't know if I want to take the chance to throw that kinda money away.


----------



## flyingcow

FYI- this is the ytpe of HP I have. Have had good luck with it, but still new to me. It has a head unit, no ductwork. Took  a day or so to get used to the head hanging on the wall, but now don't even notice it. We got a $600 rebate(because it was a Hyper unit) from the power co for the install. Plus a slightly lower Kwh rate from oct to april. This has helped lower my wood useage. When it's not below zero, we use it quite a bit(but it does work below zero). It's in the main living area, and keeps a good dose of heat in that area. Our family enjoys that. I also have a 12k unit upstairs. Basically I'm at a point where the investment in these units was at a time when i can spoil us. BUT, it was also dirven by the efficiencies of these units, plus the ability to heat at a lower outside temp. Until recently, HP's have never been practical up here in the north land, IMO. Just want to clarify what type of HP I have. Fujitsu makes a comparable units.

These are the numbers supplied to me by Mitsu::
for cooling---1270 watts 
Heating outside temp @47f----1540 watts
Heating outside temp @17f----2620 watts


http://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/en/consumer/product-solutions/product-showcase


----------



## Clarkbug

dspoon19 said:


> 8 gallons of propane per day @ 91330 btu/gallon = 30443 btu/hr required
> 
> I burn no less 20 MMBTU/cord content wood with low moisture content.
> 
> Assume a gasser has an overall eff. of 80% and a regular OWB has 30%.
> 
> I would need 1.32 cords/month to feed the gasser.  and a total of 7.25 cords for the total 5.5 month heating season.
> I would need 1.86 cords/month to feed the OWB and a total of 10.25 cords for the total 5.5 month heating season.
> 
> I would save 3 cords per year.  Wood is free so I save no $.  I only save about 12 hours of time each year and I save the few extra lbs of particulate matter.
> 
> Are those overall efficiencies assumptions in the ball park?  Am I doing something wrong in my calculations?



Based on your low heating load, these units will idle quite a bit, either one of them.  I think your efficiencies are in the ballpark, but the wood usage will be higher due to cycling and idling losses.  

The HPs that Flyingcow mentioned are nice units...  Mitsubishi, Fujitsu, and Daikin all make them, some that use a single condensing unit outside connected to multiple head units inside the house.  Really nice if you have a main living space or bedroom that never gets quite as hot or cold as you want without making the rest of the house terrible.

I would advise against having your own boiler fabbed, just because if something goes south, you dont have any fix other than dumping more of your own $ into it.  

However your roll, really insulate your buried lines, and if you are at all near the limits for the size piping, go a size bigger now.


----------



## Mr._Graybeard

Buzz Saw said:


> dspoon19,
> 
> Seems to me price point is a big deciding factor in your system build, or is there another factor I missed?  If that is the case have you check out this site?  http://www.smokelessheat.com/
> 
> 
> The Vedolux 30 gasser looks to be the cheapest unit at about $6,200 and prices go up from there.   If you bought water storage tanks(propane tanks) at $1,000 the price would be very similar to
> 
> 
> 
> I don't want you to think I'm trying to spend your money for you, but I'm vicariously living through your project since you are going to be finished before I even get started.  What do you think?




My friend has an Attack DP boiler hooked up to a pressurized storage tank. It is a thing of beauty. The smallest Attack boiler from New Horizon is $4900. Might look at that.


----------



## dspoon19

Clarkbug said:


> Based on your low heating load, these units will idle quite a bit, either one of them.  I think your efficiencies are in the ballpark, but the wood usage will be higher due to cycling and idling losses.
> 
> The HPs that Flyingcow mentioned are nice units...  Mitsubishi, Fujitsu, and Daikin all make them, some that use a single condensing unit outside connected to multiple head units inside the house.  Really nice if you have a main living space or bedroom that never gets quite as hot or cold as you want without making the rest of the house terrible.
> 
> I would advise against having your own boiler fabbed, just because if something goes south, you dont have any fix other than dumping more of your own $ into it.
> 
> However your roll, really insulate your buried lines, and if you are at all near the limits for the size piping, go a size bigger now.


 
Yea I looked into those units after I got back from Aruba. They have those things everywhere but are used for cooling only.  I like them a lot.


----------



## dspoon19

Mr._Graybeard said:


> My friend has an Attack DP boiler hooked up to a pressurized storage tank. It is a thing of beauty. The smallest Attack boiler from New Horizon is $4900. Might look at that.


 
ill have to check into those. 

 what does the pressure typically run on pressurized system?  do you have more safety equipment when using a pressurized system?  do you have to run storage with a pressurized system?


----------



## dspoon19

I think in Ohio you have to have a certain class of boiler licensure to install or modify any pressurized system.  Anyone else know about these regulations?


----------



## Floydian

Hello Derek,



dspoon19 said:


> 8 gallons of propane per day @ 91330 btu/gallon = 30443 btu/hr required
> I burn no less 20 MMBTU/cord content wood with low moisture content.
> Assume a gasser has an overall eff. of 80% and a regular OWB has 30%.
> I would need 1.32 cords/month to feed the gasser. and a total of 7.25 cords for the total 5.5 month heating season.
> I would need 1.86 cords/month to feed the OWB and a total of 10.25 cords for the total 5.5 month heating season.
> I would save 3 cords per year. Wood is free so I save no $. I only save about 12 hours of time each year and I save the few extra lbs of particulate matter.
> Are those overall efficiencies assumptions in the ball park? Am I doing something wrong in my calculations?



These numbers are not adding up to me.

First we need a realistic number for btu/gal of propane at your furnace's efficiency. Let just say 85%. So 91,330X.85=77,630 Btus/gal

At 8 gallons of propane/day you're looking at 621,040 Btu/day X 30= 18.6 MMBtus/month

Now let's look at how many Btus you get from a cord of 20 MMBtu/cord
Gasser @80% eff: 20 MMBtus X .8 = 16 MMBtus/cord

OWB @ 30% eff: 20 MMBtus X .3 = 6 MMBtus/cord

Now back to the 18.6 MMBtus/month that you need......

With a gasser: 18.6 MM DIVIDED by 16 MM = 1.16 cords/month X 5.5 months = 6.38 cords/year

With an OWB: 18.6 MM DIVIDED by 6 MM = 3.1 cords/month X 5.5 months = 17 cords/year

In your OP you mention(I think) that  you are averaging about 5.5 gallons of propane/day. I would guess/hope that that is a more realistic number over the course of winter. In that case the numbers would look more like this:

Gasser=4.4 cords/year.

OWB= 11.7 cords/year.

This math obviously uses some big assumptions that could really change things depending but I'd guess they are pretty close for this purpose.

In all honesty, I am pretty anti-OWB to begin with and these above numbers only make me more so. That's without even getting into the particulate/pollution discussion.

Noah


----------



## flyingcow

Thanks for that Floyd. His math didn't look right to me either, figuring a gasser will use 3 cord less?


----------



## dspoon19

Floydian said:


> Hello Derek,
> 
> 
> 
> These numbers are not adding up to me.
> 
> First we need a realistic number for btu/gal of propane at your furnace's efficiency. Let just say 85%. So 91,330X.85=77,630 Btus/gal
> 
> At 8 gallons of propane/day you're looking at 621,040 Btu/day X 30= 18.6 MMBtus/month
> 
> Now let's look at how many Btus you get from a cord of 20 MMBtu/cord
> Gasser @80% eff: 20 MMBtus X .8 = 16 MMBtus/cord
> 
> OWB @ 30% eff: 20 MMBtus X .3 = 6 MMBtus/cord
> 
> Now back to the 18.6 MMBtus/month that you need......
> 
> With a gasser: 18.6 MM DIVIDED by 16 MM = 1.16 cords/month X 5.5 months = 6.38 cords/year
> 
> With an OWB: 18.6 MM DIVIDED by 6 MM = 3.1 cords/month X 5.5 months = 17 cords/year
> 
> In your OP you mention(I think) that  you are averaging about 5.5 gallons of propane/day. I would guess/hope that that is a more realistic number over the course of winter. In that case the numbers would look more like this:
> 
> Gasser=4.4 cords/year.
> 
> OWB= 11.7 cords/year.
> 
> This math obviously uses some big assumptions that could really change things depending but I'd guess they are pretty close for this purpose.
> 
> In all honesty, I am pretty anti-OWB to begin with and these above numbers only make me more so. That's without even getting into the particulate/pollution discussion.
> 
> Noah




What if the furnace is a Lennox rated at 98.2% eff?  Are these numbers on the yellow energy tag on the side of the furnace true? 

If they are true then just for round numbers supposed 100% use of the fuel.  I would use 730,640 BTU's per day x 30 days = 21919200 BTU's per month.

Your numbers suggest I could cut wood usage by 62.4%.  In your calc's, why do you change the heating value of the wood and the propane? 

Wood is 20MMBTU.
Furnace is 98.2% eff. (just humor me and round to 100%)
OWB is 35% overall eff.
Gasser is 80% overall eff.
Propane is 91330 BTU/Gallon
I use 8 gallons per day

8 x 91330 = 730640 BTU's/day = 21919200 BTU's per month (round to 22MMBTU)

Gasser:  Need 22MMBTU's per month + 20% more BTU's to make up for the loss (100-80 = 20)
               22MMBTU + 20% more = 26.4MMBTU's per month.
So I need to burn 26.4MMBTU of wood.  Wood is 20MMBTU per cord.  26.4/20 = 1.32 cords/month x 5.5 month season = 7.26 cords per season

OWB: Need same 22MMBTU's per month + 70% more BTU's to make up for loss (100-30 = 70)
                22MMBTU + 70% more = 37.4MMBTU's per month.
So I need to burn 37.4 MMBTU of wood.  Wood is still 20MMBTU per cord.  37.4/20 = 1.87 cords/month x 5.5 month season = 10.285 cords per season


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## dspoon19

Even if you use the simple rule of dividing you number of gallons of propane by 220 I would still use 1.1 cords per month but this is at 100% efficiency which is not the case with either of the wood burning appliances I am looking to get.

Add 20% more for fuel for the 80% efficient gasser and you get 1.32 cords per month. 

Add 70% more fuel for the 30% efficient gasser and you get 1.87 cords per month.

.55 diff in cords per month x 5.5 months is 3.025 cords less per year with gasser.

I think my math is correct.  I get the same results from 2 different methods.


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## dspoon19

Clarkbug said:


> Based on your low heating load, these units will idle quite a bit, either one of them.  I think your efficiencies are in the ballpark, but the wood usage will be higher due to cycling and idling losses.
> 
> The HPs that Flyingcow mentioned are nice units...  Mitsubishi, Fujitsu, and Daikin all make them, some that use a single condensing unit outside connected to multiple head units inside the house.  Really nice if you have a main living space or bedroom that never gets quite as hot or cold as you want without making the rest of the house terrible.
> 
> I would advise against having your own boiler fabbed, just because if something goes south, you dont have any fix other than dumping more of your own $ into it.
> 
> However your roll, really insulate your buried lines, and if you are at all near the limits for the size piping, go a size bigger now.



Yeah Can I add load so they don't cycle and idle so much?  I mean I can always find a use for more heat.  Heat the garage, barn, maybe get a hot tub so I'm not wasting the wood on idling. 

If I were to not use storage, what is the "sweet spot" to run a gasser at?  80% of total output?  50%?


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## hobbyheater

Really think this one needs a little humor !


ATTORNEY: Doctor, before you performed the
autopsy, did you check for a pulse?

WITNESS: No.

ATTORNEY: Did you check for blood pressure?

WITNESS: No.

ATTORNEY: Did you check for breathing?

WITNESS: No..

ATTORNEY: So, then it is possible that the
patient was alive when you began the autopsy?

WITNESS: No.

ATTORNEY: How can you be so sure, Doctor?

WITNESS: Because his brain was sitting on
my desk in a jar.

ATTORNEY: I see, but could the patient have
still been alive, nevertheless?

WITNESS: Yes, it is possible that he could
have been alive and practicing law.


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## Fred61

I can't sit on the sidelines any longer. Perhaps this will close this thread.

Here goes: despoon, you say you're an engineer. Tell us what it's like to drive a train.


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## dspoon19

Fred61 said:


> I can't sit on the sidelines any longer. Perhaps this will close this thread.
> 
> Here goes: despoon, you say you're an engineer. Tell us what it's like to drive a train.



What the heck does a train have to do with this?!?


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## Floydian

Derek,

To me you are going about this all wrong.

A cord of wood with 20 MMBTUs burned at 80% leaves you with 16 MMBTUs, plain and simple.
A cord of wood with 20 MMBTUs burned at 35% leaves you with 7 MMBTUs.



dspoon19 said:


> Gasser: Need 22MMBTU's per month + 20% more BTU's to make up for the loss (100-80 = 20)
> 22MMBTU + 20% more = 26.4MMBTU's per month.



Your method here is wrong. Burning 26.4 MMBTUs to deliver 22 MMBTUs is 83.3% efficiency NOT the 80% you referenced earlier.

Your numbers for the OWB at 35% get really wacky.



dspoon19 said:


> OWB: Need same 22MMBTU's per month + 70% more BTU's to make up for loss (100-30 = 70)
> 22MMBTU + 70% more = 37.4MMBTU's per month.



Burning 37.4 MMBTUs to deliver 22 MMBTUs is 59% efficiency. A vast improvement over the 35% number you mention and it ain't gonna happen with a traditional OWB, IMO.

Now to simplify this. I'll give you 100% eff. on the furnace, no problem.
You feel you need 22 MMBTUs/month X 5.5 months = 121 MMBTUs/year, correct?

So you need 121 MMBTUs delivered.

With the gasser at 80% you have access to deliver 16 MMBTU out of a 20 MMBTU cord. 121 MMBTUs DIVIDED by 16 MMBTUs/cord =  7.5 cords/year

With the OWB at 35% you have access to deliver 7 MMBTU out of a 20 MMBTU cord. 121 MMBTU DIVIDED by 7 MMBTUs/cord = 17.3 cords/year

Now I am thinking you really want the OWB from the little I have read of the this thread. That's fine, it just looks to me like you are skewing the numbers in that direction and I am cautioning you, along with others here, to BE WARE! Or just burn crap tons of wood every year.

Good luck,
Noah


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## skfire

dspoon19 said:


> What the heck does a train have to do with this?!?


 
on page 8 this thread will officially be a runaway train and you are the engineer.
Fred....just when I thought I was out.....they pull me back in...ooooofa...


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## flyingcow

dspoon19 said:


> What the heck does a train have to do with this?!?




Floydian.....RUN, RUN away.......You are in the vortex.........


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## flyingcow

dspoon19 said:


> What the heck does a train have to do with this?!?




BTW..............................is this (dspoon) thread created by Webbie?????? Please say so.


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## BrotherBart

skfire said:


> on page 8 this thread will officially be a runaway train and you are the engineer.
> Fred....just when I thought I was out.....they pull me back in...ooooofa...



It ain't gonna make it there.


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