# Savings come slowly for hybrid, electric car owners (Volt pays for itself in 27 years)



## BrianK (Apr 6, 2012)

http://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/blog/2012/04/savings-come-slowly-for-hybrid.html

*Savings come slowly for hybrid, electric car owners*

*Nashville Business Journal by Nevin Batiwalla, Staff Reporter*
Date: Thursday, April 5, 2012, 12:09pm CDT
If you're thinking about buying a fuel-efficient hybrid, electric or otherwise eco-friendly vehicle as a way to save money over time, do your homework — or be prepared to wait.
Buyers who choose Nissan's all-electric Leaf ($28,421) over its approximate gas-powered equivalent, Nissan's Versa ($18,640), will likely wait nearly 9 years until they break even, according to a new report by _The New York Times_ that examines the cost of fuel efficiency.
For drivers of the Chevrolet Volt ($31,767), the wait is even longer— 26.6 years.
A few vehicles begin paying off relatively soon after leaving the dealership. Two hybrids— Toyota's Prius ($23,537) and Lincoln's MKZ ($33,887)— as well as Volkswagen's diesel-powered Jetta TDI ($25,242) all take less than two years before they start saving their owners money.
Check out this chart by the _Times_ that breaks down the savings delay for many popular fuel-efficient models.
The high price tag of many fuel-efficient vehicles — including the Nissan Leaf, which will soon be made in Smyrna, Tenn. — is one reason consumers have yet to embrace them with open arms.


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## begreen (Apr 6, 2012)

One thing lacking from that comparison chart is maintenance costs. This is particularly apparent with the Nissan Versa vs Nissan Leaf.


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## macmaine (Apr 6, 2012)

*One thing lacking* from that comparison chart is maintenance costs. This is particularly apparent with the Nissan Versa vs Nissan Leaf.

1+ BeGreen
Brake Pads : Oil changes: belts: spark plugs; mufflers; serpentine belt; radiator ; water pump; the list goes on and on.
The Volt will have a lot less wear and tear as well as most drive >75% of the time in all electric.

*Another thing lacking* is the assumption that the "real life" MPG is the highway MPG. They always assume we all drive
55 mph from our house to work and never putter to do errands or go to the dump etc.
Most driving is a combination of city and highway not all one or the other. ICE cars will vary much more than EV
as EV never have to "idle" at stop light or behind school buses, etc

What the authors of these articles fail to realize is how incredibly cheap the fuel is for these vehicles. Electricity is  only a couple hundred dollars a year.
My overnight charge costs me about 50 cents! That gets me 35-45 miles of driving. How far can a CRUZE go on 50 cents of gas?That is 1/8th  of a gallon and
Lets see that looks like 4 miles.

*Another thing that is lacking* is the apples to oranges argument.
Those in the market for a Volt are NOT looking at Cruze, which is  a nice  car.
Why not buy a used Corolla? That would be cheaper than a new Cruze? Heck why not buy a skateboard instead of a Leaf or Volt or Cruze?
I guess I get tired when "experts" who have never owned let alone driven these cars sets up a straw man by  comparing an econobox to a prius or a volt or Leaf.
They then jump up and down and shout "see how expensive this is"!!
Why not compare the Leaf or a Volt to mid level car like Acura or A4?
That is if you are going to pay 350+ a month for a lease why not get the car that is maintenance and almost fuel cost free?
I drove a Chevy Impala today brand new nice car but not even close to the fun of an electric car.



*Another thing lacking* is the concept of externalities. Currently ICE vehicles puff out CO SO2 CO2 and there is a cost to that. Currently drivers of ICE do not pay any DIRECT cost for this. Of course the public does pay a collective price  from  smog air pollution, and yes global warming. Health care system absorbs the cost of this pollution with Asthma Heart Attacks COPD all worsening with worsening air quality. See Los Angeles. EV markedly decrease this even if powered by some coal.

Question for the author of the NYTIMES article : You are stuck in middle of the Holland Tunnel in NYC at rush hour
You have a choice of having all the vehicles EV or all of them ICE, you are stuck there for a few hours?

Peace Tom


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## daveswoodhauler (Apr 7, 2012)

macmaine said:


> *One thing lacking* from that comparison chart is maintenance costs. This is particularly apparent with the Nissan Versa vs Nissan Leaf.
> 
> 1+ BeGreen
> Brake Pads : Oil changes: belts: spark plugs; mufflers; serpentine belt; radiator ; water pump; the list goes on and on.
> The Volt will have a lot less wear and tear as well as most drive >75% of the time in all electric.


 
Don't get me wrong, I am for hybrids and smaller cars, but based on GM's reliability record I think I'll wait to see how much the volt does/doesn't cost one over a span or 5-7 years. Once reliability is established, I think more folks will turn to hybrids.


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## SolarAndWood (Apr 7, 2012)

daveswoodhauler said:


> Once reliability is established, I think more folks will turn to hybrids.


 
While the Leaf and Volt may be relatively new to the game, the Toyota hybrid platform has been on the market for 15 years.  TDIs have been around even longer.  While I'm not sure I would run out and buy a high mileage used one, I wouldn't think twice about replacing our 2008 Camry hybrid with 75K on it and not one single issue other than gas, oil, tires and brakes with a new one. There is no question that we were far better off buying the hybrid than a comparably equipped V6 both economically and environmentally.

I think the market is moving in the right direction.  I hope the American companies can compete in it going forward or they will be left behind.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 7, 2012)

Since the VOLT is a high end high tech luxury car IMO you have to compare it to a CADDILAC or BMW not a CRUZE. So now the whole projection changes. Plus if your not financially challenged why not buy whatever you want,Id like an electric hummer or large pickup. I dont care if it never pays for itself.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 7, 2012)

The only thing i ever bought that paid for itself is rental property.


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## sesmith (Apr 8, 2012)

The article's #s look good to me. I really do like the new hybrid and electric technology and am glad people are buying these cars cause eventually, they will be price competitive and mainstream. When we bought our Toyota Yaris in 2008 I did my own price comparison with a Prius and came to the conclusion that it made no sense for us to spend the extra money from a simple payback perspective. I know a Prius is a nicer car and probably more comfortable, but to me a car is a car, and we like small, compact and cheap to run and maintain. The argument that maintenance is more for conventional cars doesn't hold true for me, for the newer cars. I used to work on cars for a living. I've only had to do routine oil changes on the Yaris so far, tires, and an air filter or 2. More than 60k on it and I've never had to do any brake work yet (and we live in a hilly area). I would argue that the more complicated control and electrical systems in the hybrid and electric cars might need more in the way of service work over their lifetimes.

My daughter just bought a new Hyundai Accent, another small very efficient car. I used to think the Hyundai cars were just built cheaply and never had an interest in buying one (old mechanic's prejudices). I was totally impressed with the 2012 models and their warranty. Hyundai has come a long way. She also looked at a Prius C. Also a nice car, but money won out in the end. The Prius C's 53 mpg fuel economy over the 40 mpg Accent alone can't justify the 4-5k difference in price. In the end, that's a 92 gallon difference in fuel per year (15k driven per year), or around $368 / year. 4k divided by 368 is 11 years, more time than she will own it. Of course it is more complicated than that. You have to look at length of ownership, fuel price increases, resale value, etc, but I think the numbers in the Times article make sense.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 9, 2012)

There are  people(myself incuded)who keep a vehicle for 10-15 years and longer. no telling what gas prices will be by the end of that cycle. Peace of mind is worth something as well.


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## begreen (Apr 9, 2012)

sesmith said:


> The article's #s look good to me. I really do like the new hybrid and electric technology and am glad people are buying these cars cause eventually, they will be price competitive and mainstream. When we bought our Toyota Yaris in 2008 I did my own price comparison with a Prius and came to the conclusion that it made no sense for us to spend the extra money from a simple payback perspective. I know a Prius is a nicer car and probably more comfortable, but to me a car is a car, and we like small, compact and cheap to run and maintain. The argument that maintenance is more for conventional cars doesn't hold true for me, for the newer cars. I used to work on cars for a living. I've only had to do routine oil changes on the Yaris so far, tires, and an air filter or 2. More than 60k on it and I've never had to do any brake work yet (and we live in a hilly area). I would argue that the more complicated control and electrical systems in the hybrid and electric cars might need more in the way of service work over their lifetimes.
> 
> My daughter just bought a new Hyundai Accent, another small very efficient car. I used to think the Hyundai cars were just built cheaply and never had an interest in buying one (old mechanic's prejudices). I was totally impressed with the 2012 models and their warranty. Hyundai has come a long way. She also looked at a Prius C. Also a nice car, but money won out in the end. The Prius C's 53 mpg fuel economy over the 40 mpg Accent alone can't justify the 4-5k difference in price. In the end, that's a 92 gallon difference in fuel per year (15k driven per year), or around $368 / year. 4k divided by 368 is 11 years, more time than she will own it. Of course it is more complicated than that. You have to look at length of ownership, fuel price increases, resale value, etc, but I think the numbers in the Times article make sense.


 
As noted, the Prius to Yaris is not a direct comparison. The Prius is a much roomier, more comfortable car with significantly more standard features. If the goal is the cheapest transportation then perhaps a bike or bus pass is even a better comparison?


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## sesmith (Apr 9, 2012)

begreen said:


> As noted, the Prius to Yaris is not a direct comparison. The Prius is a much roomier, more comfortable car with significantly more standard features. If the goal is the cheapest transportation then perhaps a bike or bus pass is even a better comparison?


 
I don't disagree with that (I mentioned that in my original post).  Actually, my bike does better than that...I ride a bicycle to work most days.  My point being, I am glad that people buy the hybrid and electric cars.  They are making a difference.  But the reason for purchasing them has to be more than just the economics of fuel savings, cause that argument doesn't work.  The Times article's #s make sense.  When the pricing difference comes down enough for me to personally justify it, I'll jump right on that bandwagon.  Until then, my approach is to go small and efficient, but conventional, albeit a little cramped.  Actually, you can't believe how much stuff you can fit in a Yaris hatchback!


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## begreen (Apr 9, 2012)

I tip my hat to your frugality. You rock.


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## oldspark (Apr 10, 2012)

begreen said:


> As noted, the Prius to Yaris is not a direct comparison. The Prius is a much roomier, more comfortable car with significantly more standard features. If the goal is the cheapest transportation then perhaps a bike or bus pass is even a better comparison?


 With the economic problems we are facing down the road, less is more.


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## begreen (Apr 10, 2012)

Not for everyone, otherwise we would all be driving something like the Lada. People still pay for styling, comfort and features that satisfy their needs and aesthetics just like wood stoves. And as the Prius is proving, it comes out as less in the long haul. Locally the cabbies are adopting the Prius with a vengeance.


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## woodsmaster (Apr 11, 2012)

daveswoodhauler said:


> Don't get me wrong, I am for hybrids and smaller cars, but based on GM's reliability record I think I'll wait to see how much the volt does/doesn't cost one over a span or 5-7 years. Once reliability is established, I think more folks will turn to hybrids.


 
What major reliability problems did GM have ? All of them I've ownwed have been pretty reliable.


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## oldspark (Apr 11, 2012)

begreen-all I am saying spending less money on a car right now might not be a bad thing, for me my Fit is a luxury car after driving a Geo Metro for over 13 years, as far as maintenance cost goes my small cars have had very few problems, had a 1980 Datsun 310 bought new that cost me very little in 180,000 miles of driving (finally hit a deer). I could have bought a nicer car but I did not see the point and so far my I like the Fit a lot and usually get about 38 miles to the gallon and have pulled up to 42 on the interstate.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 11, 2012)

woodsmaster said:


> What major reliability problems did GM have ? All of them I've ownwed have been pretty reliable.


Exactly woodmaster ,i think GMs reliability issue was blown way out of proportion.  
To all the GM bashers:
I prove you wrong each and every day as i get in my 17 Year old Silverado with 180,000
miles on it and do another days work. Flawlessly,dependably, GM trucks never let me down in 35 years of driving them. Only BAD truck i ever had was a late model rust bucket toyota tacoma.


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## begreen (Apr 11, 2012)

The essential point missed by the article is that there is a diverse market of consumers out there. Different cars fit the needs of different people. Some folks are happy with the cheapest econoboxes, but a lot are not. What the article missed are the other motivating factors like clean emissions, personal pleasure, resale value, etc. Still, there is a trend toward these cars becoming a lot more popular. Chevy sold over 2000 Volts in March. What's encouraging is that America is finally waking up and realizing that burning 12mpg in the latest SUV is not the most efficient or practical way to daily commute to work. As we move towards higher CAFE mpg goals the options are continuing to get more interesting. It's about time.


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## oldspark (Apr 11, 2012)

Yep-what I love is the 4 wheel drive pickups with big tires going 60 to 65 mph in a 55 mile speed zone not giving a crap how much 4 dollar gas they burn.


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## Jags (Apr 11, 2012)

begreen said:


> The essential point missed by the article is that there is a diverse market of consumers out there. Different cars fit the needs of different people.


 
Ding, Ding, Ding - we have a winner.

I have been saying this same thing for a while now.  Is a full electric with a 50 (just throwing a number) mile range for everybody - NO.  But there is a market.  If you are a person that works in a city with a 12 mile round trip to work through city traffic, it could be a good fit.


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## Delta-T (Apr 11, 2012)

I still wonder why we are not inundated with hybrid tractor trailers and box trucks. Its all well and good to build efficient cars to save (or maybe not save) money for average people, but you'd think, wth the miles traveleed and the fuel saved, it makes for a good financial argument to have these things already, like yesterday even.


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## firebroad (Apr 11, 2012)

Call me an optimist(not), but these vehicles are the wave of the future.  All new technology starts off sky-high, remember when the CFL's first came out?  They were $20 each back then, now I can buy one for about $2-3.  Am I going to go right out and buy a Volt or a Leaf?  Heck no.  Will I buy one in the future?  I sure hope I can sooner rather than later.


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## Dune (Apr 11, 2012)

sesmith said:


> The article's #s look good to me. I really do like the new hybrid and electric technology and am glad people are buying these cars cause eventually, they will be price competitive and mainstream. When we bought our Toyota Yaris in 2008 I did my own price comparison with a Prius and came to the conclusion that it made no sense for us to spend the extra money from a simple payback perspective. I know a Prius is a nicer car and probably more comfortable, but to me a car is a car, and we like small, compact and cheap to run and maintain. The argument that maintenance is more for conventional cars doesn't hold true for me, for the newer cars. I used to work on cars for a living. I've only had to do routine oil changes on the Yaris so far, tires, and an air filter or 2. More than 60k on it and I've never had to do any brake work yet (and we live in a hilly area). I would argue that the more complicated control and electrical systems in the hybrid and electric cars might need more in the way of service work over their lifetimes.
> 
> My daughter just bought a new Hyundai Accent, another small very efficient car. I used to think the Hyundai cars were just built cheaply and never had an interest in buying one (old mechanic's prejudices). I was totally impressed with the 2012 models and their warranty. Hyundai has come a long way. She also looked at a Prius C. Also a nice car, but money won out in the end. The Prius C's 53 mpg fuel economy over the 40 mpg Accent alone can't justify the 4-5k difference in price. In the end, that's a 92 gallon difference in fuel per year (15k driven per year), or around $368 / year. 4k divided by 368 is 11 years, more time than she will own it. Of course it is more complicated than that. You have to look at length of ownership, fuel price increases, resale value, etc, but I think the numbers in the Times article make sense.


 
I have to vehemently disagree on the maintainence issue. At 60K on the Yaris, you shouldn't need to have replaced any parts yet. You have changed the oil and filters 6-12 times already though, which would not have been required with an electric car. Soon you will need to change the timing belt and brakes,  not so with the electric. Next will come exhaust work, radiater/water pump and hoses. Fuels system issues, from the tank itself, fuel pump, filter, injector pump, injectors. Brakes again, Oil changes the whole time.
Then there is engine maintainence itself. The maintainence of a heavy duty electric motor is virtually non-existent. Replace the bearings for $3 each (there are two) every forty years or so. I have some 80 year old electric motors with original bearings. The complexity of the electric vehicle controll system does not come close to making up for the number of entire systems eliminated by electric drive. There is simply no comparison.


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## maple1 (Apr 12, 2012)

Our 2006 Civic has 265,000 kms on it. It gets an oil/filter change every 12,000kms, and has had the front brakes done once. That's it (aside from tires). Gets an honest 45mpg (Cdn.). I'm going to find it awfully hard to justify not getting another Civic when it comes time to replace this one.


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## daveswoodhauler (Apr 12, 2012)

woodsmaster said:


> What major reliability problems did GM have ? All of them I've ownwed have been pretty reliable.


 
This is one of the shart I was referring too. Don't get me wrong, I do like some of the Gm cars, its just the domestic automakers have some catching up to do:





http://content.usatoday.com/communi...iner-in-consumer-reports-annual-report-card/1


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## webbie (Apr 12, 2012)

FYI, cars with the highest cost of ownership, and therefore the longest "payback" are Lexus, Mercedes and similar - they cost about double per mile from economy cars...sometimes more....

If you want to sell 10,000 to 50,000 cars (Volts) a years, you can cheery pick customers who feel that the car pays for itself the very first day!

When the time comes and you wish to sell 10% or 20% of ALL cars as electric, then you need to be a bit more specific about payback. Nothing in this world starts out in the perfect incarnation - the ipad is certainly better than the Apple I and most of you would never have bought an Apple I.

So let's hear it for the pioneers!


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## oldspark (Apr 12, 2012)

Even thoughh many of us have had good luck with our small cars as far as maintenance costs go I have to agree with Dune and the electric cars having less parts to maintain in the long run, I used to work on electric fork lifts and for the most part they were trouble free, you have problems once in a while with the electrical system but a good reliable drive train for the most part. I dont know if I will ever own an electric car (close to retirement) but I think they will work for many people.


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## webbie (Apr 12, 2012)

Many said we'd never move from horses.
Bill Gates said no computer would EVER need more than 640K of RAM (todays computers have 2000X that).

End of story. Some folks can see forward, others tend to find fault with everything.


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## Slow1 (Apr 12, 2012)

Dune said:


> I have to vehemently disagree on the maintainence issue. At 60K on the Yaris, you shouldn't need to have replaced any parts yet. You have changed the oil and filters 6-12 times already though, which would not have been required with an electric car. Soon you will need to change the timing belt and brakes, not so with the electric. Next will come exhaust work, radiater/water pump and hoses. Fuels system issues, from the tank itself, fuel pump, filter, injector pump, injectors. Brakes again, Oil changes the whole time.
> Then there is engine maintainence itself. The maintainence of a heavy duty electric motor is virtually non-existent. Replace the bearings for $3 each (there are two) every forty years or so. I have some 80 year old electric motors with original bearings. The complexity of the electric vehicle controll system does not come close to making up for the number of entire systems eliminated by electric drive. There is simply no comparison.


 
The only system that really concerns me for maintenance on an electric car is the batteries.  When I start looking at my TCO I generally consider keeping a car for 200K miles which in the case of the battery system means I will be replacing it at least once, likely twice.  So - as a thought exercise I have tried to see how it compares to oil changes... Going with easy math numbers here:  If you assume the battery pack has to be fully replaced each 100K miles (that may be generous), and it costs $10K to do it, then you are looking at $0.10/mile.  Assuming you change your oil every 3000 miles, then that would be $30 worth of battery for the same distance - how much are your oil changes costing you?  Now the cost to replace the battery pack may be significantly different and you may not get 100K miles out of it... if you get fewer miles and the cost goes up then that would make the 'virtual' oil changes much more expensive.... if it goes the other way (more miles on the battery and/or less expensive change of the battery pack) then you have some money left over to pay for those other ICE tune ups etc....


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## woodgeek (Apr 12, 2012)

Slow1 said:


> The only system that really concerns me for maintenance on an electric car is the batteries. When I start looking at my TCO I generally consider keeping a car for 200K miles which in the case of the battery system means I will be replacing it at least once, likely twice. So - as a thought exercise I have tried to see how it compares to oil changes... Going with easy math numbers here: If you assume the battery pack has to be fully replaced each 100K miles (that may be generous), and it costs $10K to do it, then you are looking at $0.10/mile. Assuming you change your oil every 3000 miles, then that would be $30 worth of battery for the same distance - how much are your oil changes costing you? Now the cost to replace the battery pack may be significantly different and you may not get 100K miles out of it... if you get fewer miles and the cost goes up then that would make the 'virtual' oil changes much more expensive.... if it goes the other way (more miles on the battery and/or less expensive change of the battery pack) then you have some money left over to pay for those other ICE tune ups etc....


 
Actually that would be a $300 oil change !!


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## Dune (Apr 12, 2012)

This isn't theoretical.
Electric cars are not new.
100 years ago, electric cars outnumbered ICE cars 2-1.
Jay Leno has an electric car from the teens with the original batteries.
The batteries in the Volt are warrenteed for 8 years.


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## Slow1 (Apr 12, 2012)

woodgeek said:


> Actually that would be a $300 oil change !!


 
Hmm... thanks for the double check..

$10,000 for batteries / 100,000 miles = $0.10 / mile
3000 miles between changes * $0.10/mile = $300

Guess there is a lot of budget there for a tune up with each of those oil changes eh?

So the point seems to be well made - if the batteries have to be fully replaced each 100K miles and are anywhere near $10K to replace (net cost) then I suspect this one maintenance cost will more than make up for the 'normal' ICE maintenance schedule expenses during the same 100K mile period.


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## begreen (Apr 12, 2012)

Slow1 said:


> Hmm... thanks for the double check..
> 
> $10,000 for batteries / 100,000 miles = $0.10 / mile
> 3000 miles between changes * $0.10/mile = $300
> ...


 
Not sure where that figure was pulled from. There are Prius cars out there with lots more than 100K miles on them. Some triple that number.

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1023454_toyota-prius-taxi-tops-340000mi-dispels-battery-myth


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## Dune (Apr 12, 2012)

It came from thin air, just like the idea that a car will only need oil changes in 100,000 miles.


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## sesmith (Apr 12, 2012)

Dune said:


> I have to vehemently disagree on the maintainence issue. At 60K on the Yaris, you shouldn't need to have replaced any parts yet. You have changed the oil and filters 6-12 times already though, which would not have been required with an electric car. Soon you will need to change the timing belt and brakes, not so with the electric. Next will come exhaust work, radiater/water pump and hoses. Fuels system issues, from the tank itself, fuel pump, filter, injector pump, injectors. Brakes again, Oil changes the whole time.
> Then there is engine maintainence itself. The maintainence of a heavy duty electric motor is virtually non-existent. Replace the bearings for $3 each (there are two) every forty years or so. I have some 80 year old electric motors with original bearings. The complexity of the electric vehicle controll system does not come close to making up for the number of entire systems eliminated by electric drive. There is simply no comparison.


 
Here's a comparison:

http://www.edmunds.com/toyota/prius/2012/tco.html?style=101420746

http://www.edmunds.com/toyota/yaris/2012/tco.html?style=101402709


It evens out more when you buy used (2007):

http://www.edmunds.com/toyota/prius/2007/tco.html?style=100777218

http://www.edmunds.com/toyota/yaris/2007/tco.html?style=100689157

Note the maintenance and repairs categories.

Interesting is that it really doesn't seem to matter much when you buy new vs used on the lower end car, something I've noticed with my own stuff these days (unless you find a great deal when used shopping). Can't say that with the higher end cars, it appears.

One thing that's certain for sure.  It costs too darn much to drive these days.


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## begreen (Apr 13, 2012)

Not sure where they pull those figures either. I pay a lot less for insurance, no financing fees and a heckuva a lot less maintenance still on a 6 yr old Prius. That might also be the same with the Yaris, can't say. But then again, I chose to get the Prius and not the Yaris for the greater interior space, flexibility and economy.


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## Slow1 (Apr 13, 2012)

begreen said:


> Not sure where that figure was pulled from. There are Prius cars out there with lots more than 100K miles on them. Some triple that number.
> 
> http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1023454_toyota-prius-taxi-tops-340000mi-dispels-battery-myth


 
The numbers I picked were not quite "out of the air" but I admit they are pretty close.  I generally assume that when a warranty is given on something that it should last at least that long.  Also in my discussions with my local Nissan dealer who was marginally informed on this it seemed that they were expecting 80% battery capacity after 3 years and a gradual decline to about 50% capacity once it got to the end of the warranty period.  

Now when comparing this performance to a Prius one has to remember that if you are relying 100% on the battery you are going to notice that capacity reduction a lot more than if you are using the battery as a buffer and recharging it as you use it.  I do believe these are very different use cases and thus I would expect that the useful service life will likely be much shorter for the pure plug-in electric battery pack.  IF I start off with a range of 100 miles, then 3 years later am down to 80 that may be ok, but take it down to 50 and I'm going to be hurting and need to replace the batteries.

Now as to cost - I've read a bit on this as well.  It seems the main counter point being offered by Nissan (and perhaps others) is that you may not have to replace the whole battery pack at once, perhaps just a few cells at a time.  I wonder about that answer as it seems it may just be a way of spreading the cost out over time.  I have not yet found a clear answer on the cost to replace the full battery pack.  However, if the full replacement was $5K instead of the listed $10K, that takes our costs down to about 5c/mile and that 'virtual oil change' is now a mere $150, which is quite the improvement but still rather expensive.

Don't take this as saying I don't support electric cars - I am eager to own one.  I really do hope that the TCO will come down quickly in the next couple years.  The battery packs appear to be one of the key components where there is room for rapid improvement.  Clearly this has been known for some time, everyone seems to be waiting for battery technology to improve and become more cost effective right?


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## MishMouse (Apr 13, 2012)

Actually replacing the battery pack in a prius may not be expensive as you might think.

http://cbelectriccar.com/blog/toyota-electric/toyota-prius-battery-replacement-price/

This site figures it at around $4K, but can be around $500 for DYI.


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## Slow1 (Apr 13, 2012)

MishMouse said:


> Actually replacing the battery pack in a prius may not be expensive as you might think.
> 
> http://cbelectriccar.com/blog/toyota-electric/toyota-prius-battery-replacement-price/
> 
> This site figures it at around $4K, but can be around $500 for DYI.


 
Perhaps I need to be clear - I'm looking at cost estimates for something akin to a Leaf which is all-electric, not the Prius.


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## begreen (Apr 13, 2012)

IIRC they have already addressed this concern. The battery is guaranteed for 8yr or 100K miles. That covers a lot right there. But a friend said his Nissan Leaf dealer told him that Nissan expects battery technology to improve and will have an upgrade program. And the entire pack is not likely to need replacement at one time. Also, remember, that if the car is kept up well, it's value with a new battery pack will be higher than your average 10 yr old vehicle because there will be much less anticipated maintenance in its next 10 yrs of service.

http://cleantechnica.com/2011/08/09/nissan-explains-leaf-battery-video/
http://green.autoblog.com/2011/09/30/nissan-addresses-leaf-battery-life-replacement-costs/


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## Slow1 (Apr 13, 2012)

begreen said:


> IIRC they have already addressed this concern. The battery is guaranteed for 8yr or 100K miles. That covers a lot right there. But a friend said his Nissan Leaf dealer told him that Nissan expects battery technology to improve and will have an upgrade program. And the entire pack is not likely to need replacement at one time. Also, remember, that if the car is kept up well, it's value with a new battery pack will be higher than your average 10 yr old vehicle because there will be much less anticipated maintenance in its next 10 yrs of service.
> 
> http://cleantechnica.com/2011/08/09/nissan-explains-leaf-battery-video/
> http://green.autoblog.com/2011/09/30/nissan-addresses-leaf-battery-life-replacement-costs/


 
So what do you calculate the cost to be for the battery over a 200K mile, 15 year life cycle?  I have read these articles as well, but am still not clear based on the "swap the individual cells, not the whole pack for 'hundreds each' as they fail" that it is really going to drive the cost down that much.  If this is done by the dealer, how much is the labor markup going to add when they have to diagnose which cells to replace?  Only time will tell us whether any of this really matters - thus part of the risk of any new technology of course.


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## begreen (Apr 13, 2012)

If I knew what battery technology would be even 5 years from now I would be a rich man. To predict over 200K and 15 yrs would be folly.

Note that Nissan designed their battery system as modular. Modules are replaceable, not the individual cells. Their goal is to extend their electric line into multiple electric vehicles all using these modules. That should continue to drive down cost. The diagnosis should be pretty simple, each module is continually monitored. It's just a matter of plugging into the cpu to determine this.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 14, 2012)

There are some nice Electric motorcycles coming to market. Asia is bringing them out big time. A great starting point . Scooters and smaller bikes for a few K . MAny still use lead acid batteries cuz of their cheap prices and universal availability. Razor sells a small electric MC 220LB cap. 10 mile range for $500. Suitable for a smaller person. If you want 60mile range and highway speeds you will need  $3K and up


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## MishMouse (Apr 16, 2012)

How well does these all electrics preform in frigid conditions?
Also, do you have to drive them almost everyday to keep them charged?


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## Jags (Apr 16, 2012)

MishMouse said:


> How well does these all electrics preform in frigid conditions?
> Also, do you have to drive them almost everyday to keep them charged?


 
Until it starts to get VERY cold, electric motors don't care. Now cabin heat is a different story.
Do you have to use your cell phone everyday to keep it charged? (sorry, kind of a snarky comment, but its intent was to demonstrate how the battery tech compares to stuff that we are already use to.)


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 16, 2012)

MishMouse said:


> How well does these all electrics preform in frigid conditions?
> Also, do you have to drive them almost everyday to keep them charged?


Personally i dont want to drive a motorcycle in frigid conditions.My body does not do well in frigid conditions either thats why i love my wood stoves.


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## MishMouse (Apr 16, 2012)

The main reasons why I ask is after a typical winter if a vehicle sat over a month without it being run it needs to be connected to the charger to start even with a fresh battery. Didn't have to do that this year because we really didn't get that 1-2 month period of below zero temps. Typically about now I would be starting to connect the charger to every vehicle that sat in order for them to start. I think I only need to do it for my wife’s ATV and my pickup truck this year. 

The main question is how does the environment (extreme cold/or heat) effect the operation of an all electric or even a hybrid?


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## btuser (Apr 16, 2012)

Cold weather is going to be rough on a battery-powerd vehicle.  You're going to pre-heat the vehicle as it's plugged in but that's going to be tough at work for the first 20 years.  If you park in a garage great but a lot of folks don't.   An hour's drive home at 0F is NOT going to sell a lot of electric vehicles.


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## Jags (Apr 16, 2012)

MishMouse said:


> The main reasons why I ask is after a typical winter if a vehicle sat over a month without it being run it needs to be connected to the charger to start even with a fresh battery.


 
I'm not sure if I understand this.  I have never experienced a need to connect a battery charger to a vehicle if the battery is up to snuff.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 16, 2012)

My truck sat for 3 months this winter,while i was nursing a broken arm ,started right up. I do have a very good battery,one of those optima $200  jobs.


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## GaryGary (Apr 16, 2012)

MishMouse said:


> The main reasons why I ask is after a typical winter if a vehicle sat over a month without it being run it needs to be connected to the charger to start even with a fresh battery. Didn't have to do that this year because we really didn't get that 1-2 month period of below zero temps. Typically about now I would be starting to connect the charger to every vehicle that sat in order for them to start. I think I only need to do it for my wife’s ATV and my pickup truck this year.
> 
> The main question is how does the environment (extreme cold/or heat) effect the operation of an all electric or even a hybrid?


 

Hi,
I don't know about a full electric car like the Leaf, but were are on our 2nd Prius in SW Montana where it gets down to -20F once in  a while.  The Prius is parked outside 99% of the time, and we have not had any problems.  It has also sat outside for as long as a couple weeks while we were on vacation with no problems.
The Prius holds up to the cold weather better than I do 

Gas mileage drops a bit for short trips in the winter, but long trip mileage does not appear to be effected much.

As an all around winter car, the only thing I could really wish for on the Prius is a little more ground clearance.

--
On the battery maintenance/replacement issue, there are quite are detailed DIY methods out there (one was in Home Power a few months ago) on rebuilding a hybrid battery pack.  Basically involved evaluating each cell.  Some cells will be OK, some can be recovered with a careful charging process, and a small number will need to be replaced.  To me, the process sounded time consuming, but not very expensive.  There is an good ebay supply of replacement cells for not a lot of money -- presumably from salvaged battery packs.  So, I'd guess, the same sort of thing will happen for full electric cars if the the sales are sufficient.


Gary


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## begreen (Apr 16, 2012)

The need to charge would depend on car. Some have anti-theft or other devices that may provide a slight drain on the battery. But otherwise I would think that the issue with a zero degree battery would be pretty much the same whether is sat for a week or four.


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## MishMouse (Apr 16, 2012)

Jags said:


> I'm not sure if I understand this. I have never experienced a need to connect a battery charger to a vehicle if the battery is up to snuff.


 
Well, it all depends on the temps, get a few weeks where the temps stay double digit below zero and it really sucks the juice out of the battery.  Going outside and trying to start a ICE when the temp is -40 really tests the battery power, especially if you do not have the engine heater plugged in and you do not use synthetic oil. 

Though trying to move frozen oil wouldn't be an issue with an all electric and since you would already have it plugged in any loss should be recovered.   The system most likely works similiar to a trickle charger once it reached max charge.

What I would like to see is tests showing the performance of an all electric and or a hybrid in more adverse conditions (Alaska during the winter/AZ during the summer).  Which is the main reason why I brought more external conditions into the discussion as they would need to be addressed as they could affect the performace.

One of my co-workers owned a Prius, but they really didn't drive it in the winter and kept it in a heated garage.


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## begreen (Apr 16, 2012)

Fortunately those temps are very extreme and rare. Most folks and cars never experience them. It takes lots of prep for cars to work if it's that cold. Some folks bring their batteries indoors overnight. Some have battery heaters and most all have engine block heaters.

I can't find it now, but I read of a long term road test of a Prius in northern Quebec. It did quite well. The Prius is an ICE hybrid so I don't see why the car would have starting issues any more than a regular car would in -40F.


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## Slow1 (Apr 16, 2012)

I'm glad I don't have to worry about -40* weather in any case... keep those extreme temps to those who enjoy it or have to deal with it for some other reason.  I imagine that if I lived somewhere where my car had to sit out in that temp then being an early adopter on electric cars likely wouldn't be my first concern.  Then again, those who grew up there may just take it all in stride....

I am, however, concerned about the reports from testers (such as Consumer Reports) that claimed the range in the Leaf fell to as low as 65 miles when using the Heat and/or AC.  The clip I found from them on the web wasn't very detailed so not really helpful in understanding how they hit that point, but that does concern me as if that was with a new battery and it were 'normal' then take away that 20% that Nissan dealers have told me to expect to lose in the first 3 years, that puts it down to a possible 52 mile range with heater - now we're bumping into my range anxiety for winter commute here if I can't charge during the day (not an option yet, no guarantee it will be there within the 3 years...).

I sure wish I could afford a Tesla....  They sure seem to have the range thing down (160/230/300mile) as well as many other design questions.  Just the cost factor rather smacks me out of the ballpark.


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## btuser (Apr 16, 2012)

Starting issues aren't the problem, it’s the lack of wasted energy in the form of heat and the drag on battery performance by an air conditioner. Between cold weather affecting a battery's output and the additional drain from having to heat seats/defroster/cabin I bet trip length is cut down considerably. Those are major power items.

I guess for short trips electric heat will warm up a lot quicker than an IC but the power to run heating is a byproduct of needed engine cooling. There is no such waste to be scavenged from an electric engine, so you have to fire up the toaster coils and warm up the cabin. A snuggie ain't going to cut it.


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## woodgeek (Apr 16, 2012)

Slow1 said:


> I'm glad I don't have to worry about -40* weather in any case... keep those extreme temps to those who enjoy it or have to deal with it for some other reason. I imagine that if I lived somewhere where my car had to sit out in that temp then being an early adopter on electric cars likely wouldn't be my first concern. Then again, those who grew up there may just take it all in stride....
> 
> I am, however, concerned about the reports from testers (such as Consumer Reports) that claimed the range in the Leaf fell to as low as 65 miles when using the Heat and/or AC. The clip I found from them on the web wasn't very detailed so not really helpful in understanding how they hit that point, but that does concern me as if that was with a new battery and it were 'normal' then take away that 20% that Nissan dealers have told me to expect to lose in the first 3 years, that puts it down to a possible 52 mile range with heater - now we're bumping into my range anxiety for winter commute here if I can't charge during the day (not an option yet, no guarantee it will be there within the 3 years...).
> 
> I sure wish I could afford a Tesla.... They sure seem to have the range thing down (160/230/300mile) as well as many other design questions. Just the cost factor rather smacks me out of the ballpark.


 
Could always get a personal propane heater to use in the car in the winter. !!


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## Slow1 (Apr 16, 2012)

btuser said:


> I guess for short trips electric heat will warm up a lot quicker than an IC but the power to run heating is a byproduct of needed engine cooling. There is no such waste to be scavenged from an electric engine, so you have to fire up the toaster coils and warm up the cabin. A snuggie ain't going to cut it.


 
On the bright side, if the car is plugged in I do believe that some have the ability to schedule or remotely have the temp adjusted in time to leave so you don't have the drain on the batteries to get the cab temperature brought up or down (as the case may be).  Sort of a remote-start for the auto HVAC system.  Doesn't do much good if your work parking lot doesn't have a plug for you though...


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## Slow1 (Apr 16, 2012)

woodgeek said:


> Could always get a personal propane heater to use in the car in the winter. !!


 
How about some slabs of soapstone - heat them on the stove before you leave, then put them under your feet and pile blankets on top like the old days?


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## begreen (Apr 16, 2012)

Slow1 said:


> How about some slabs of soapstone - heat them on the stove before you leave, then put them under your feet and pile blankets on top like the old days?


 
That is a thought. In cold regions you might be able install a compact diesel heater like an Espar or Webasto. I've seen a few home brew electric conversions that have done that.


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## Slow1 (Apr 16, 2012)

begreen said:


> That is a thought. In cold regions you might be able install a compact diesel heater like an Espar or Webasto. I've seen a few home brew electric conversions that have done that.


 
How about one of those tiny wood stoves?  Have to slant the flue out the back I suppose, but what a site that would be to see driving down the road eh?  Definitely need a barometric damper I imagine as the draft would go up as you hit highway speeds.   Hmm... there are laws in MA about texting and driving, what about feeding your wood stove while driving?


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 16, 2012)

I can see the new laws now ,No loading the wood stove while driving.


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## btuser (Apr 16, 2012)

begreen said:


> That is a thought. In cold regions you might be able install a compact diesel heater like an Espar or Webasto. I've seen a few home brew electric conversions that have done that.


 
If you could sacrifice some trunk space I'm sure a propane or even gas pony motor that could be a seasonal modification would work.  Easy enough to add if you needed the extra 20-100 mile range. 

You wouldn't need a full-sized motor producing enough electricty to drive+charge because your destination would be programmed by the GPS.  This way the motor would know when to kick on ahead of time to extend the battery and therefore gain extended range from a smaller/lighter motor.   100 miles electric, or 150 miles cogeneration.  Something like that, but we'd have to learn to plan ahead.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 16, 2012)

I just got a new Beverageair so im getting much better range than i did with cans and bottles (burp)  Im going green here im sure ,less bottles and cans to process. signing off for today.......................................................


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## GaryGary (Apr 16, 2012)

btuser said:


> ...
> You wouldn't need a full-sized motor producing enough electricty to drive+charge because your destination would be programmed by the GPS. This way the motor would know when to kick on ahead of time to extend the battery and therefore gain extended range from a smaller/lighter motor. 100 miles electric, or 150 miles cogeneration. Something like that, but we'd have to learn to plan ahead.


 

That seems like a pretty slick idea to me.
The IC engine could be small, light weight, and setup to run at maximum efficiency and constant rpm.  

Seems like an enterprising person might be able to build a prototype of this idea around something like a Leaf?

If (say) the electric car has a 100 mile range on battery alone and uses 300 watt-hr per mile, then the usable battery capacity is about 30 KWH.   If you want to do a (say) 160 mile trip without stopping to charge then how big an IC do you need?  
If you are averaging 40 mph, then the little IC engine has (160/40) = 4 hrs to generate 60 miles worth of range -- about 18 KWH worth of charging -- so, for this case, it would need to be an honest 4.4 KW (6 hp) engine running over the full 4 hours of travel time.

Another nice thing about this is that you would never be totally stuck.  The car would be able to manage some small speed with just the charge that the small IC is putting in, or you could pull over and let the IC charge for half an hour, and then move on some -- you don't have to worry so much of running out of juice at a really bad time, or just a mile short of a charging station.

It does seem like in order to plan when the IC engine comes on you do need to know not only how far you are going, but how fast you want to get there -- the IC engine has less time to do its thing if you want to get there fast.

Gary


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## btuser (Apr 16, 2012)

Neat. And like you say you can supersize them if they want a bigger engine. It would go farther if we could get rid of some emissions rules. I mean if you're going 70 mi/gallon do we need a catalytic converter, which is really not for an engine running at 100% capacity?


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## semipro (Apr 17, 2012)

btuser said:


> If you could sacrifice some trunk space I'm sure a propane or even gas pony motor that could be a seasonal modification would work. Easy enough to add if you needed the extra 20-100 mile range.
> 
> You wouldn't need a full-sized motor producing enough electricty to drive+charge because your destination would be programmed by the GPS. This way the motor would know when to kick on ahead of time to extend the battery and therefore gain extended range from a smaller/lighter motor. 100 miles electric, or 150 miles cogeneration. Something like that, but we'd have to learn to plan ahead.


 
I think they're calling this setup a "BEVx". 
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2012/01/bevx-20120129.html


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 17, 2012)

I said this before,in the case of the leaf and like cars,why not put a small generator in the trunk. Inexpensive range extender.$300-$500 If you know you will exceed your range for that day, fire up the gen from the get go. IM sure you could push that 8o mile range to well over 100. Just about every large camper and motorhome has one. Make it propane.With remote start.


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## btuser (Apr 17, 2012)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I said this before,in the case of the leaf and like cars,why not put a small generator in the trunk. Inexpensive range extender.$300-$500 If you know you will exceed your range for that day, fire up the gen from the get go. IM sure you could push that 8o mile range to well over 100. Just about every large camper and motorhome has one. Make it propane.With remote start.


Hell, link it to my Blackberry so my car can download my calender and start on its own.  Estimate my trips and make reservations at chargi ng stations on the way. I can stop for an hour at a high-voltage charging station, catch up on email/texts, and keep moving.  4X10hour days will give Americans a whole extra day to shop!


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## begreen (Apr 17, 2012)

The Ford Focus Electric will have some pretty sophisticated apps and networking that cover a lot of this.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 18, 2012)

begreen said:


> The Ford Focus Electric will have some pretty sophisticated apps and networking that cover a lot of this.


Im glad ford is jumping into the electric game for us Buy american folks. I still think the prius is a good car but id like to see an american company have as much success worldwide as the prius has enjoyed. And id also like to see the ford and the volt on sale in japan(at a reasonable price) and South korea although im not optimistic of that happening. That said I still have to admire toyota for sticking with the concept even when it was not so popular or profitable.


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## MishMouse (Apr 18, 2012)

I just checked and Mitsubishi has the MiEV that gets 112 MPGe along with an 8 year 100K warranty.

"Based on independent EPA testing, the Mitsubishi i can travel 62 miles on a full charge, in typical driving conditions. Incidentally, the EPA's MPGe ratings came in at 126 City and 99 Highway for a combined 112 MPGe—making the Mitsubishi i the most efficient electric vehicle in its class.12"


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## Slow1 (Apr 18, 2012)

MishMouse said:


> I just checked and Mitsubishi has the MiEV that gets 112 MPGe along with an 8 year 100K warranty.
> 
> "Based on independent EPA testing, the Mitsubishi i can travel 62 miles on a full charge, in typical driving conditions. Incidentally, the EPA's MPGe ratings came in at 126 City and 99 Highway for a combined 112 MPGe—making the Mitsubishi i the most efficient electric vehicle in its class.12"


 
Cute little car.  Only 4 seat belts so won't meet my needs, cost is listed around $29K (before federal rebate) so it is less expensive than the leaf.  For someone with short distance commuting in a city area it may well be nice.  If I didn't have to drive 4 kids to school it might almost do for me - my daily drive on normal days is around 40 miles so that is in range... of course I wonder if this battery pack also loses 20% in the first few years and would thus land in the 49 mile zone and then leaving only 9 miles of range buffer for accessory (heat/AC) use...


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 18, 2012)

I need space for 5 at least. Might be better off getting an SUV converted to electric. I hear toyota is coming out with a RAV4 electric soon. Thats an SUV, At least he current version is


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## katwillny (Apr 18, 2012)

Steven Chu says higher gas prices are a good motivator to get American off of the dependency of fossil fuels and foreign petroleum. Only problem with that is that the average guy has no control over how cars are being designed and hybrid cars are too expensive. Not to get all political just a personal view.


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## begreen (Apr 19, 2012)

Chu is right, sorry. As long as fuel is cheap, inefficient vehicles will rule the roost. There are affordable non-hybrids that are reasonably priced. The Chevy Cruze Eco is an example.


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## oldspark (Apr 19, 2012)

begreen said:


> Chu is right, sorry. As long as fuel is cheap, inefficient vehicles will rule the roost. There are affordable non-hybrids that are reasonably priced. The Chevy Cruze Eco is an example.


 Yep all sorts of economical cars that get great milage especially when you compare them to what a lot of people drive, no need to go broke saving fuel and money.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 19, 2012)

begreen said:


> Chu is right, sorry. As long as fuel is cheap, inefficient vehicles will rule the roost. There are affordable non-hybrids that are reasonably priced. The Chevy Cruze Eco is an example.


And you can be the proud owner of one of these babys for a low $159 a month lease.  Wont break the bank and i have read that reviewers have attained as much as 58 MPG on a level road at 55MPH. Avg Mpg is closer to 40.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 19, 2012)

I know many people dont like the idea of a lease but i have had 2 already an made money on both of them. My rule of thumb is if you are only going to keep the car for about 3 years often its a good deal. Plus you have options at the end of the lease, you can buy the car or simply give it back.


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## maple1 (Apr 19, 2012)

How do you make money leasing a car?


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 19, 2012)

maple1 said:


> How do you make money leasing a car?


I made money as opposed to buying the same car. When the lease was up the car was not worth the residual value, so if i had bought it i would be out the difference.
In that case i just gave it back and the leasing company took the hit for the difference. The second time they had a deal going (GM)where you could turn the car in a year early ,they waive the remaining payments, so i was in a new car in just 2 years. That car i purchased and did take a loss 3 years later when trading it in. I never paid more than $229 to lease a new car but never paid less than $333 to buy one,and that was with a down payment. they all worth just about nothing after 5-6 years anyway.Unless your buying a truck ,they hold their value much longer than a car.


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## semipro (Apr 20, 2012)

katwillny said:


> Steven Chu says higher gas prices are a good motivator to get American off of the dependency of fossil fuels and foreign petroleum. Only problem with that is that the average guy has no control over how cars are being designed and hybrid cars are too expensive. Not to get all political just a personal view.


 
The average guy does however have a choice in what he buys to some extent.  As long as he continues to buy SUVs and Pickups instead of more fuel efficient vehicles, that's what Detroit is going to develop and produce. 
If we had paid the true cost of fuel in the past (without federal or other subsidization) its likely we'd be much farther ahead with respect to developing efficient vehicles.


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## btuser (Apr 20, 2012)

The big cost savings in my house is the list on the fridge.  Not running out for milk on Tuesday or a can of stewed tomatoes on Thursday or more laundry soap on Friday when you were just there at Target buying a KungFu Joe and a birthday card for Saturday.  MPG is great but 200mpg isn't going to fix my bad memory.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 20, 2012)

btuser said:


> The big cost savings in my house is the list on the fridge. Not running out for milk on Tuesday or a can of stewed tomatoes on Thursday or more laundry soap on Friday when you were just there at Target buying a KungFu Joe and a birthday card for Saturday. MPG is great but 200mpg isn't going to fix my bad memory.


I drive a low MPG truck for work. I can effectively double my economy by combining trips,works for any car or truck. Like you said dont drag a 6000LB vehicle out for every minor item you may think you need right now.


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## katwillny (Apr 20, 2012)

semipro said:


> The average guy does however have a choice in what he buys to some extent. As long as he continues to buy SUVs and Pickups instead of more fuel efficient vehicles, that's what Detroit is going to develop and produce.
> If we had paid the true cost of fuel in the past (without federal or other subsidization) its likely we'd be much farther ahead with respect to developing efficient vehicles.


And I agree with you as far as that Semipro, how about the guy who cant afford to go buy a new energy efficient car because he has not had a steady job for the past few years? what is he to do, happily pay $4.50 to 5.00 a gallon. Thats why I am not a proponent of raising gas prices to curb usage. Im all for efficient vehicles, but if I cant afford to drive to my job then how happy can I be with Chu.


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## GaryGary (Apr 20, 2012)

katwillny said:


> And I agree with you as far as that Semipro, how about the guy who cant afford to go buy a new energy efficient car because he has not had a steady job for the past few years? what is he to do, happily pay $4.50 to 5.00 a gallon. Thats why I am not a proponent of raising gas prices to curb usage. Im all for efficient vehicles, but if I cant afford to drive to my job then how happy can I be with Chu.


 

It seems like there should be some creative financing for fuel efficient cars that provides some up front money in exchange for a payments over the years that are less than the fuel cost savings.   Sort of like the home loans where you can borrow the money to add energy saving features, and the added payment is more than made up for by the monthly energy cost saving.    Seems like a win-win?

Gary


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## semipro (Apr 20, 2012)

katwillny said:


> And I agree with you as far as that Semipro, how about the guy who cant afford to go buy a new energy efficient car because he has not had a steady job for the past few years? what is he to do, happily pay $4.50 to 5.00 a gallon. Thats why I am not a proponent of raising gas prices to curb usage. Im all for efficient vehicles, but if I cant afford to drive to my job then how happy can I be with Chu.


 
I thinks sometimes folks lose sight of how fuel prices ultimately affect their transportation costs. 
Since vehicle ownership averages about $0.50/mile, a $1 increase in per gallon cost of fuel (25% increase) results in an increase of $0.05/mile (10%) in driving cost for a vehicle that gets 20 MPG. The cost increase for more efficient vehicles would be even less.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 20, 2012)

Gas prices like everything else can only be successfully tamed long term by 1 thing, competition. When it has to compete with CNG or electric or some other form of transportation fuel prices will moderate. Short term ,supply and demand still rule.


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## MishMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

If they are thinking that raising gas prices will lead more people into hybrids/ev they need to understand that would only work with a growing economy with ultra low unemployment.  If someone can't afford to pay over 4$ a gallon for gas, there is no way that person is going to be looking to buy a new car.  If you look at current consumption rates, I do not think we are using more gas, I think we are using less. The higher the price goes the less we will use.  The other problem with higher gas prices is that it also increases the overall costs of everything.


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## begreen (Apr 20, 2012)

I don't think that is the goal. It is to reduce carbon emissions. If you do that with a non-hybrid, that is still a gain. For the near future, electric cars are going to be for urban corridors. Note that it is not regulation that is and will cause gas prices to increase. It is the global marketplace. We need to wake up to the fact that many other industrialized nations will pay much more for our resources than we currently pay.


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## btuser (Apr 20, 2012)

begreen said:


> We need to wake up to the fact that many other industrialized nations will pay much more for our resources than we currently pay.


 
You're right.  We need to invade NOW.

I really hope the rich have a plan.  I hope they've figured out fusion and are just waiting for the end of the petrodollar to fund the baby boom.  It stinks to think about buring all that oil when we've got such a better way of doing it, but it's a supply chain that's not going to stop till it breaks.  If we stop buying gas the price of gas for Americans will skyrocket.  The price of everything will skyrocket. We won't save anything (well, maybe the planet) by getting off of gasoline because as others have stated someone else is ready to line up and buy it.


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## katwillny (Apr 20, 2012)

MishMouse said:


> If they are thinking that raising gas prices will lead more people into hybrids/ev they need to understand that would only work with a growing economy with ultra low unemployment. If someone can't afford to pay over 4$ a gallon for gas, there is no way that person is going to be looking to buy a new car. If you look at current consumption rates, I do not think we are using more gas, I think we are using less. The higher the price goes the less we will use. The other problem with higher gas prices is that it also increases the overall costs of everything.


That was exactly my point. Thank you. Steven Chu makes a great point however I disagree with him due to this same point you make. The average guy cannot afford to go and purchase a new vehicle so that he can save on fuel. But I also understand that it HAS to start somewhere. Its a difficult subject.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 21, 2012)

One of my vehicles only gets as about 8 miles to the gallon ,but i only put about $50 -$60 a month in gas in it. I cant buy a vehicle that gets better MPG for $50-$60 a month. If i were putting out $300-$500 on gas every month you bet i would be looking to update.


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## begreen (Apr 21, 2012)

katwillny said:


> That was exactly my point. Thank you. Steven Chu makes a great point however I disagree with him due to this same point you make. The average guy cannot afford to go and purchase a new vehicle so that he can save on fuel. But I also understand that it HAS to start somewhere. Its a difficult subject.


 
Indeed. The more higher mileage cars that get into the market now will mean that there will be many more available on the used market in the future.


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