# Strange smell in basement and Circuit Panel feels hot next to 100 Amp Main Circuit Breakers! We have



## Don2222 (Aug 3, 2011)

Hello

It was hot last night and here is a list of what electric appliances were running:
1. Electric washer
2. Electric 240vac dryer with aluminum wiring
3. Three 110vac air conditioners 5x,10k and 12k BTUs
4. Pool filter pump 110v
5. Media Center - TV, Media Server, Surround Sound etc.
6. Desktop Computer
7. Kitchen Refrigerator
8. 2 or 3 Ceiling Fans
9. A few room lights

I would say maybe 60-70 Amps Total. The circuit box is a 23 yo Challenger made by GE and so is the 100 Amp main breaker and most of the other breakers. They do not seem like the best quality since I purchased the box and breakers at Somerville Lumber!
They are the same shape as square D.

I took the front of the Circuit Panel off and I could feel the main breakers and they were HOT!

The main breaker plastic started melting. The wires from the meter socket were NOT warm.
Then other breakers started to trip, like the kitchen refrig and room light, then basement light!

*What could be the cause?*

Tonight I removed the old 100 Amp main and replaced it with a new one.
See pics of old and new below!

Click on pic to enlarge


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## chrisf (Aug 3, 2011)

is that aluminium wire on the sub feed it looks like it in the pic? If it is make sure the old breaker could have been used with aluminium. I see the new one is. Even with the new breaker you still need to use the anti corrsion grease on alum wire. alum wire needs to be torqued properly.


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## begreen (Aug 3, 2011)

The old breaker overheated at the bus. It looks like it was not making good contact. What did the bus look like where the breaker attached to the bus? If there is corrosion, oxidation or arcing soot and pitting there, the new breaker may have the same problem. It needs to have a firm, clean contact with the bus bar.


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## jimbom (Aug 3, 2011)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> The old breaker overheated at the bus. It looks like it was not making good contact. What did the bus look like where the breaker attached to the bus? If there is corrosion, oxidation or arcing soot and pitting there, the new breaker may have the same problem. It needs to have a firm, clean contact with the bus bar.


  My first thought also.  The bus may have been damaged.  

If you have an infrared thermometer, check the temperature of the breakers.  Should be similar if load is balanced.


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## woodgeek (Aug 3, 2011)

poor connection at bus = arcing = heat and melting


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## semipro (Aug 3, 2011)

woodgeek said:
			
		

> poor connection at bus = arcing = heat and melting



+1

Its amazing how many electrical problems come down just to bad connections


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## Don2222 (Aug 3, 2011)

bkfc255 said:
			
		

> is that aluminum wire on the sub feed it looks like it in the pic? If it is make sure the old breaker could have been used with aluminum. I see the new one is. Even with the new breaker you still need to use the anti corrosion grease on alum wire. alum wire needs to be torqued properly.



NO

The only Aluminum wiring goes from the dryer to the 220vac breaker at the bottom left in the panel.


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## Don2222 (Aug 3, 2011)

Hello

I believe you guys are right On about the poor connection.

It seems like a bad connection inside the breaker because when I removed the Old 100 amp main circuit breaker the spring connector stayed on the box's buss stab!

The bus was not in bad shape, I did clean it with a wire brush however because there was some corrosion on it.

Because of the melted plastic around this connection maybe more proof of the heat emitting from this bad connection.

Summary
So maybe the corrosion combined with the failing connection inside the breaker and of course the hot night with the loading was the adverse tolerance stackup that caused this failure
The failing connection inside the breaker is very likely to be the spring that keeps the breaker closed. If the spring does not push the connector hard enough then there can be heat and burning from a loose connection at high current like the 60 amp load we had!

Well I guess $42.95 for the new good quality 100 Amp Square D Main breaker from Home Depot made by Schnelder Electric is a wee bit cheaper than calling in an Electrician!

Just as long as I did remember to pull the Meter before working on the 100 Amp wires so I would not turn into a french fry!! LOL

Thanks so much you guys

See pic below


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## mellow (Aug 3, 2011)

Did your meter box have a seal lock on it?  Curious how that works if you break that seal and remove the meter then just put the meter back,  do you get fined if you don't call the electric company to come back out and inspect it?


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## Don2222 (Aug 3, 2011)

mellow said:
			
		

> Did your meter box have a seal lock on it?  Curious how that works if you break that seal and remove the meter then just put the meter back,  do you get fined if you don't call the electric company to come back out and inspect it?



Hi mellow

Good Question!

  I called the Electric Company. They said if you have electric work done by yourself or an electrician where the Meter must be removed for safety, then after the work is done just call them to re-tag the Meter.

The Electric Company does not do inside panel work so that is the policy!

Thanks, I think we all learned something here!


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## semipro (Aug 3, 2011)

Don2222 said:
			
		

> mellow said:
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2nd that.  I was not aware you could pull your own meter.  I thought you'd get fined.

P.S.: This thread reminds me to point out the dangers of using the "push-in" connections on the back of electrical outlets instead of the screw terminals.  I've come across many that were bad.


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## Highbeam (Aug 3, 2011)

I pulled my meter when my electrician buddy and I swapped to a nice new panel when I bought my current home. I shoved the meter back in and everything was fine. We were having elctrical issues more recently and had the power company out, it turned out to be a bad connection where the lines from the street pole attach to the weatherhead and the power guy finally found/fixed it. While he was there I asked him to tag the meter seal and he just did it. No questions asked. Without that tag, a neighbor kid could pull off my meter without any tools. 

The power company doesn't want people messing with the meter socket due to the obvious safety concerns. However, a very common reason for them to encourage it is if you have a power outage and run a backup generator. Removing the meter is a positive disconnect.


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## Don2222 (Aug 4, 2011)

Hello

Well I tried the same loading tonight on the new 100 Amp Mains and they are cool as a cucumber!!

So that was it! 
 A bad breaker with a bad connection inside!! Just a little stressed after 25 years but maybe that challenger breaker made by GE was not the best quality. 

  In fact I do not see them for sale around here anymore even though they still make and sell the breakers but not the panel!  http://www.aplussupply.com/break/challenger/challp.htm

Here is a recall on the Challenger GFCI breaker but that is not what I have.
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml88/88095.html

May not be the best quality so I will see how the new 100 amp main breaker holds up. So far it stays cold under the same load!
The challenger Panel and breakers were purchased in the late 80's at Somerville Lumber!


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## seige101 (Aug 4, 2011)

I strongly advise to put the proper breaker in there. While the homeline breaker does fit and will work they are not tested and approved for use with each other. If something were to happen again especially a fire the ins company would have a good reason to decline a claim.

I see breakers make a poor contact with buss all to happen. Usually the buss gets fried too. Might want to consider a new panel. A 100 amp 20/24 circuit panel should only be around $75 at the local box store possibly a few bucks cheaper at the local electrical supply house.


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## fbelec (Aug 4, 2011)

that is a definite on the challenger not being good i see it all the time. but the homeline is not to far from that also. the reg square d stuff is quality but the homeline stuff is their cheap line to compete. if you are looking for a breaker to fit that panel and it is not made, then call the local wiring inspector and ask what he'll accept as a replacement. there is a breaker made by T+B called the classified breaker and also by cutler-hammer that is classified for fit in many panels you need to check for the number on your panel and if it is on the list that comes with the breaker it can be a legal substitute. the national electrical code is that only breakers be installed in that panel be of the type and same brand as the panel. so the home line is a no no.
second thing. in your second picture showing the new breaker installed i see the duplex breaker below looking like there is rust on the breaker. what you need to do is pull that and some of the surrounding breakers and look on the sides of the breakers for the rivet's. if they is corrosion or rust, that breaker has seen some water and the breaker is not trustworthy. code say's any breaker that has got wet has to be changed. if you are seeing water come into that panel that would make each different circuit breaker blow or shut off and turn on. and also the same thing could happen to the new breaker. the water enter the panel via the service outside. what is your service (outside) made up of? is it metal pipe, pvc pipe or cable. pipe is good cable is usually the source of the leak. i do lots of change overs to pvc pipe end of wet story. 

frank


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## Don2222 (Aug 4, 2011)

fbelec said:
			
		

> that is a definite on the challenger not being good i see it all the time. but the homeline is not to far from that also. the reg square d stuff is quality but the homeline stuff is their cheap line to compete. if you are looking for a breaker to fit that panel and it is not made, then call the local wiring inspector and ask what he'll accept as a replacement. there is a breaker made by T+B called the classified breaker and also by cutler-hammer that is classified for fit in many panels you need to check for the number on your panel and if it is on the list that comes with the breaker it can be a legal substitute. the national electrical code is that only breakers be installed in that panel be of the type and same brand as the panel. so the home line is a no no.
> second thing. in your second picture showing the new breaker installed i see the duplex breaker below looking like there is rust on the breaker. what you need to do is pull that and some of the surrounding breakers and look on the sides of the breakers for the rivet's. if they is corrosion or rust, that breaker has seen some water and the breaker is not trustworthy. code say's any breaker that has got wet has to be changed. if you are seeing water come into that panel that would make each different circuit breaker blow or shut off and turn on. and also the same thing could happen to the new breaker. the water enter the panel via the service outside. what is your service (outside) made up of? is it metal pipe, pvc pipe or cable. pipe is good cable is usually the source of the leak. i do lots of change overs to pvc pipe end of wet story.
> 
> frank



Thanks so much for the info Frank !

I did have to do something quick to keep the house fom burning down so that Homeline will keep me going temporarily. Upgrading the service from 100 amp to 200 amp is the right way to go here. I am not seeing alot of water but there must be some moisture getting in because there was some corrosion on the buss stab. I just wire brushed it off but I am concerned about water or moisture leaking in. I took some pics. The service pipe and meter box is all metal and installed in 1962 when the house was built. The challenger box was an upgrade from the original done approx 1988.

So please look at the pics below and let me know how to waterproof them?

Click on Pic to Enlarge then click again to enlarge one more time!
PS. The L2 on the right meter socket is tinned copper wire NOT aluminum. I had that checked out for certain!

Also my electric company said since I have the new Tri-Plex wires from the Pole all I need is a new 200 amp box to upgrade the service!


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## yooperdave (Aug 5, 2011)

can't believe that this has happened!!
on tue nite, half of the house went dead-power wise. got a ladder and checked out the attic right away (squirrel problem last winter; thought they may have damaged wires) but all checked out ok. neighbors were all ok. 
checked all breakers-ok
put meter on main-only one leg had power. called power co. showed up after dark traced problem to meter box. the lines feeding into the house-one leg was completely corroded-so bad, it just broke! removed the bad section and went to bed with only one phase of incoming. next day, left work early, pulled meter myself (after trying to get the power co back out here-3 calls and each one was disconnected when they transferred me), removed meter box from wall of house, lowered it onto a good section of incoming feed to service panel. by this time power co was on site- the guy actually helped out (not officially) re-attached everything and was back in business!
one line voltage was completely corroded, and also, the ground was corroded to a point that only 3-4 strands were left and contacting! explains why light bulbs were burning out the previous week!

but anyway, check both legs of incoming voltage to ground- you shouldn't have that much of a difference between the readings.  if so, probably still a bad connection somewhere


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## Wallyworld (Aug 5, 2011)

Don2222 said:
			
		

> I would say maybe 60-70 Amps Total. The circuit box is a 23 yo Challenger made by GE and so is the 100 Amp main breaker and most of the other breakers. They do not seem like the best quality since I purchased the box and breakers at Somerville Lumber!
> They are the same shape as square D.



They may be the same shape as a SqD but are SqD listed to be put into a Challenger panel? NEC doesn't allow breakers to be put into panels that aren't listed to be in that panel. Just an FYI


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## Don2222 (Aug 5, 2011)

Wallyworld said:
			
		

> Don2222 said:
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Yes, I agree. Just had to get a new breaker in there before the house burned or I lost power completely! Just this past year they put up a new telephone pole across the street with a new transformer 5 feet higher than the old one. Since the the wire would not reach to my house anymore, they put in the new standard Tri-Plex wiring rated for 200 Amps. So all I need is a new panel now for an upgraded service!


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## begreen (Aug 5, 2011)

I'd replace the meter box as well. It has definite corrosion in there. If that water traveled down the wiring on to your panel's main bus, it would possibly explain the breaker failure. Corrosion of the panel's main bus is the primary thing I have seen fail in cheap panels. The old Zinco panels were notorious for this. You are lucky to have caught this. I was in one house that had lost power. Their entire panel looked like your failed breaker. Very scary stuff!


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## Don2222 (Aug 5, 2011)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> I'd replace the meter box as well. It has definite corrosion in there. If that water traveled down the wiring on to your panel's main bus, it would possibly explain the breaker failure. Corrosion of the panel's main bus is the primary thing I have seen fail in cheap panels. The old Zinco panels were notorious for this. You are lucky to have caught this. I was in one house that had lost power. Their entire panel looked like your failed breaker. Very scary stuff!



Yes, BGreen I was lucky and glad the whole house did not go up in smoke!

*So which new panel is the best quality? See new panel pics below:*

I have just been looking around and again it is not easy!

The new Square D Panel with the new protruding clips on the Breakers and recessed Buss OR
   The Siemens old style copper bus with the same old style recessed clip style breakers??

Click on pic to enlarge
The square D on the left would mean buying all new breakers! The Siemens on the right will hold my old breakers!


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## begreen (Aug 6, 2011)

I prefer SquareD, but would also be comfortable choosing a GE or Cutler-Hammer panel. It may be a personal thing but I don't like the neutral and ground bus bars to be so close to the breakers on the Siemens. It would be good to get some more feedback from the real electricians here. I only apprenticed and then moved on to other work.


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## Don2222 (Aug 7, 2011)

Hello

Well so far the new 100 Amp Mains are fine and not over heating! I guess the spring in breakers get weak and make the breakers just fail sometimes especially when they 25 years old!

Thanks for your opinion on the new boxes.

Does any one else have an opinion on the new electric panels? Which is better? What brand is better?
What type, the new breakers that square D uses or the same old style with stabs that the Siemens use?


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## laynes69 (Aug 7, 2011)

A few years ago I decided to upgrade our old panel. We had a 100 amp Square D QO panel that did well for over 25 years. After researching and having a buddy as an electrician I choose to stay with the QO from Square D. We put in all new from the weatherhead to the panel. I think it was around 400 total and it took about 6 hours. We pulled the meter and I ran the conduit beside the old service before we began. Local electricians wanted 1800.00 to do it. I spoke with our electric company to verify the lines would hold a 200 amp service. Right before we were done, the electric company came out and connected the new service and mounted the meter. It was well worth it.


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## semipro (Aug 7, 2011)

I'd compare the price of breakers for each panel.  While the panels may be similar in cost the breakers might not be and that's where most of you expense is (assuming you're not using your existing breakers).


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## seige101 (Aug 8, 2011)

Personally i prefer Murray panels. Ge is junk in my opinion. Homeline is right down there with Ge in my opinion. Square D QO would be my second choice.


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## Wallyworld (Aug 8, 2011)

I would never pick a panel based on the fact that my old breaker would fit in there.  SQ D QO panel is one I've used many times, its expensive. I would never use SQ D homeline, don't like them, they are made to hit a price point. I've used GE also, their breakers never seem to trip when loaded, I swear you could arc weld with a bare wire hooked to a GE breaker. Lots of folks Like Cutler Hammer, never used one so I don;t know. That Murray with the copper Buss looked OK to me


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## Highbeam (Aug 8, 2011)

I sure prefer a solid copper buss bar. At what point do you need to upgrade to arc fault CBs? Those puppies are expensive.


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## Don2222 (Aug 8, 2011)

Hello

Wow, has anyone seen this circuit breaker recall?

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml10/10354.html

Hazard: The recalled circuit breakers have a spring clip that can break during normal use, leading to a loss of force to maintain a proper electrical connection in the panelboard. This can lead to excessive temperature, arcing or thermal damage at the connection point, and damage to the panelboardâ€™s electrical insulation and can result in a fire, property damage, or personal injury.

Incidents/Injuries: Siemens has received one report of a circuit breaker spring clip that broke during installation. No injuries have been reported.

Description: This recall involves Siemens and Murray 15 through 50 AMP single and double pole circuit breakers, load centers (circuit breakers that come with an electrical panel), and meter combos (contain a load center and a meter socket). â€œSiemensâ€ or â€œMurray,â€ date codes 0610 or 0710 and the catalog number are printed on a label on the side of the circuit breakers. Date codes between June 2010 through August 2010 are stamped on the inside of the metal box of the load centers and meter combos. The catalog number for the load centers and meter combos is printed on a label inside the metal box door and on the packaging.


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## Don2222 (Aug 8, 2011)

Hello

How about this?? Murray main breakers from the 70s and 80s failing!! I guess I saved $300 bucks!

Another Burned Up 200 Amp Murray Breaker!!

http://www.contractortalk.com/f32/another-burned-up-200-amp-murray-breaker-36569/

He knew what the problem was here before I left the shop.

Customer says:

1.Lots of flicker/diming issue lately.
2.Half the lights in the house were out.
3.Pool pump (240V) turned on and all the lights came on.
4.Main breaker is red...says 200 A on it.

I have done three of these in the past 6 weeks.

If you see this breaker, know that there will be problems. It is difficult to inspect because you obviously have to pull the meter, but you can't really tell till you do. As soon as I wiggled it I could hear the telltale crunching of a burned breaker/bus.

This one was from 1974

Bus wasn't burned too bad...a little pitting.

$302 invoice. Breaker cost $56 and I brought it with me.

I should go door to door in these neighborhoods and clean up $$

Home Depot stocks a Seimans replacement unit with side fed lugs.


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## steam man (Aug 8, 2011)

I just had a company do a Thermographic survey of all our major electrical components using a thermal imaging camera. We use this procedure to find electrical issues before they end in disaster. The hot wire has a bad connection and was repaired.


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## Don2222 (Aug 8, 2011)

steam man said:
			
		

> I just had a company do a Thermographic survey of all our major electrical components using a thermal imaging camera. We use this procedure to find electrical issues before they end in disaster. The hot wire has a bad connection and was repaired.



Neat! What repair was made here?


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## begreen (Aug 8, 2011)

I did a thermal test when we moved into the house. Turned everything on for an hour, then went to the panel and felt each breaker. A few were definitely hot. The solution, tighten the screws. Several of the breaker wire screws were barely tightened.


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## woodgeek (Aug 9, 2011)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> I did a thermal test when we moved into the house. Turned everything on for an hour, then went to the panel and felt each breaker. A few were definitely hot. The solution, tighten the screws. Several of the breaker wire screws were barely tightened.



Cool! I mean, hot!  I will try that with my IR thermo....


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## fbelec (Aug 9, 2011)

sorry for the delay in comeback. i've been busy. it's crazy around here. don show a picture of the pipe. or the from above the meter to the connections to the wire from your house and street wire. looks like water got in there and and got high enough to start going into the pipe that leads to the panel. your wires are copper with a lead coating. what would have prevented the water on the breakers is where the wires come in from the meter should have come in to the panel then to the side where they connect to the breaker, and before connecting to the breaker they should have come down to the side a little below the breaker and then bent up to go into the breaker. that would have given you a drip loop. once the water go's into the pipe with the wires in it, it follows the wire like a pipe and drips from the lowest point of the wire. have you looked at some of the other breakers for water stains? if you are going for a service change from 100 to 200 amp (which would be a good idea from what you said about how much you a drawing for a load) that would be a good idea. siemans or the square d would be a good choice. square d breaker cost more. going for the the service change is more that just a panel and wire change. the pipe on the house, the wire in it, the panel, the ground wire, the water pipe bond and a ground rod or two will have to be changed or installed. if you stay with your current setup drill a hole in the bottom of the meter socket towards the back about 1/4 inch hole for water drainage and install a new set of wires from the meter to the main breaker with a drip loop so that if any water comes in it will drip to the bottom of the panel and not hit any of the breakers and you should be ok.

frank


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## Don2222 (Aug 9, 2011)

fbelec said:
			
		

> sorry for the delay in comeback. i've been busy. it's crazy around here. don show a picture of the pipe. or the from above the meter to the connections to the wire from your house and street wire. looks like water got in there and and got high enough to start going into the pipe that leads to the panel. your wires are copper with a lead coating. what would have prevented the water on the breakers is where the wires come in from the meter should have come in to the panel then to the side where they connect to the breaker, and before connecting to the breaker they should have come down to the side a little below the breaker and then bent up to go into the breaker. that would have given you a drip loop. once the water go's into the pipe with the wires in it, it follows the wire like a pipe and drips from the lowest point of the wire. have you looked at some of the other breakers for water stains? if you are going for a service change from 100 to 200 amp (which would be a good idea from what you said about how much you a drawing for a load) that would be a good idea. siemans or the square d would be a good choice. square d breaker cost more. going for the the service change is more that just a panel and wire change. the pipe on the house, the wire in it, the panel, the ground wire, the water pipe bond and a ground rod or two will have to be changed or installed. if you stay with your current setup drill a hole in the bottom of the meter socket towards the back about 1/4 inch hole for water drainage and install a new set of wires from the meter to the main breaker with a drip loop so that if any water comes in it will drip to the bottom of the panel and not hit any of the breakers and you should be ok.
> 
> frank



Here are the pics of the metal conduit pipe. The transformer on the pole is new this past year and the wires from the street are also new Tri-Plex 200 amp wires.
Thanks for all that really good info

click on pics to enlarge and then click again


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## fbelec (Aug 9, 2011)

looking at your setup i don't see where the water would be coming in but you'll be surprised what a beating the meter socket will take. if your ok with your setup just drill that hole, change that breaker to what should be in that box and you should be ok. 
one other thought. the water could be getting in from the weatherhead. that's at the top of the pipe where the wires come out. if so, the water will follow the neutral wire right thru the meter socket and to the breakers. replace the wire from the panel to the meter and let the neutral wire loop down to the bottom of the meter socket before it goes into the pipe to your panel and you should be all set.


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## velvetfoot (Aug 9, 2011)

Not that it might be relevant since it's the opposite direction, but I noticed some water coming into the house in the winter via the outside conduit, and I think it was because of the cold air coming in.  I put some of that clay-like duct seal in there and it didn't happen again.


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## ironpony (Aug 9, 2011)

[The power company doesn't want people messing with the meter socket due to the obvious safety concerns. However, a very common reason for them to encourage it is if you have a power outage and run a backup generator. Removing the meter is a positive disconnect.[/quote]


I know I am late to the conversation but we run 25 kw generators for power supply 
and one way of connecting them is to pull the meter and the end of the pigtail of the generator has a plug/recepticale
that connects directly to the meter base.


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## Don2222 (Aug 10, 2011)

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> Not that it might be relevant since it's the opposite direction, but I noticed some water coming into the house in the winter via the outside conduit, and I think it was because of the cold air coming in.  I put some of that clay-like duct seal in there and it didn't happen again.



Great Idea! I have some non harding Monkey Dung. That would work great

http://monkeydung.com/


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## Don2222 (Aug 10, 2011)

fbelec said:
			
		

> looking at your setup i don't see where the water would be coming in but you'll be surprised what a beating the meter socket will take. if your ok with your setup just drill that hole, change that breaker to what should be in that box and you should be ok.
> one other thought. the water could be getting in from the weatherhead. that's at the top of the pipe where the wires come out. if so, the water will follow the neutral wire right thru the meter socket and to the breakers. replace the wire from the panel to the meter and let the neutral wire loop down to the bottom of the meter socket before it goes into the pipe to your panel and you should be all set.



Thanks again Frank

I really appreciate your thorough and honest analysis!!


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## fbelec (Aug 10, 2011)

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> Not that it might be relevant since it's the opposite direction, but I noticed some water coming into the house in the winter via the outside conduit, and I think it was because of the cold air coming in.  I put some of that clay-like duct seal in there and it didn't happen again.




i think that happens up here in mass. when we get real cold it usually is windy also. code states that when going thru walls or the like the pipe should be duct sealed or some how insulated so that no air is exchanged for that reason of condensation. all it takes is one time things get wet and the code book states that if a breaker gets wet, it's time for a change


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## fbelec (Aug 10, 2011)

ironpony said:
			
		

> [The power company doesn't want people messing with the meter socket due to the obvious safety concerns. However, a very common reason for them to encourage it is if you have a power outage and run a backup generator. Removing the meter is a positive disconnect.




I know I am late to the conversation but we run 25 kw generators for power supply 
and one way of connecting them is to pull the meter and the end of the pigtail of the generator has a plug/recepticale
that connects directly to the meter base.[/quote]

yep some power company's don't like even us electricians in that meter unless we notify them first. and if they find a meter seal broken twice they put on a lock so that it can't be pulled unless they are called in. 
btw, that's how i hookup my generator. then i put in the meter blank and it's sealed from weather.


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## fbelec (Aug 10, 2011)

Don2222 said:
			
		

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your welcome don. anytime i can help. if you find somthing on that leak let us know. i've seen leaks happen the next day after the rain stopped.


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## semipro (Aug 10, 2011)

fbelec said:
			
		

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So you're saying that the condensation occurs as warm humid air from the house leaks into the cold meter box?  That makes sense but I just wanted to clarify.


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## Don2222 (Aug 10, 2011)

Hello

Check this Failed Breaker on YouTube Video!

Good Breaker contact shown by green arrow
Bad Breaker Contact shown by red arrow below!!


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## Don2222 (Aug 10, 2011)

Semipro said:
			
		

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I think it is condensation because I do not see water dripping that would cause corrosion on the panel stabs!

So here is my thoughts
Warm air from the meter socket is coming in between the meter wires and causing the warm air in the panel to condense and corrode the breaker contacts and the stabs. Also warm air traveling outside to the meter socket thru the gaps between the meter wires is condensing on the meter socket contacts and wires.
So I am stuffing pieces of fiberglass insulation between the wires in the back of the meter socket and the back of the circuit panel box, then air sealing with some Monkey Dung!!


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## fbelec (Aug 11, 2011)

Semipro said:
			
		

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yes i can happen. that was the reason for the code. it came about because of electrical that goes thru fridge and freezer walls.


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## fbelec (Aug 11, 2011)

Don2222 said:
			
		

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that will work fine. sometimes you don't see the water because it is a small amount, but if you pull the breaker and see water stains that is all it takes. if it has water stains it needs to go because it is not trust worthy. it could start tripping at 8 amps, but it could blow at 25, which could take out a 14 gauge wire.


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## fbelec (Aug 11, 2011)

Don2222 said:
			
		

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also i forgot to say that the water doesn't have to rot the panel, what it does is rot the breaker. the panel itself will put up with a lot of water before it's problem


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## Don2222 (Aug 11, 2011)

Hello

Thanks Frank


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## steam man (Aug 16, 2011)

Don2222 said:
			
		

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Sorry about the delay. I am on a steam turbine ship and can only answer when we get to port. Every repair is a little different. Typically it can be just tightening the connection, cleaning corrosion off the wire, and even just changing out the wire. Most of our equipment sees pretty rough service (and hot ambient temps). After we repair it we may try an IR gun on it to compare the before and after readings since we don't carry a thermal imaging camera. They are pricey. Also, all the major electrical connections are 450V and high amperage. Nothing like watching a controller blow out of its box and across the deck.

Mike


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