# Wood Gas Car



## eba1225 (Jul 16, 2008)

I know we had this discssuion before on this board, but I just found this article on CNBC.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/25706395/for/cnbc/

Erik


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## glacialhills (Jul 16, 2008)

So where are the plans to do this? I would think this technology would help those of us out in here in the country with unlimited free wood. Why is this technology not being heralded from every rooftop? Even if it is inconvenient to use.


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## Eric Johnson (Jul 16, 2008)

Here's one from Finland--the La Kamina, I believe.


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## tkirk22 (Jul 17, 2008)

Glacialhills said:
			
		

> So where are the plans to do this? I would think this technology would help those of us out in here in the country with unlimited free wood. Why is this technology not being heralded from every rooftop? Even if it is inconvenient to use.



Here's a report done for FEMA in the late 80s. Now fire up that welder and torch.

http://www.gengas.nu/byggbes/contents.shtml


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## Adios Pantalones (Jul 17, 2008)

Looks like you need a fair bit of vehicle space to generate the gas.  I wonder if I could fit the extra parts in the back of my ugly Baja.


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## Adios Pantalones (Jul 17, 2008)

Oooh- Ooh ohh!-  A great project would be building a gasifier generator.  OK- so it won't kick in automatically, but how cool would that be?


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## Jags (Jul 18, 2008)

Adios Pantalones said:
			
		

> Oooh- Ooh ohh!-  A great project would be building a gasifier generator.  OK- so it won't kick in automatically, but how cool would that be?



I have actually toyed with that idea.  My genset is strapped to a 1942, small hp (like 12) 4 cylinder engine.  Slow rpm, low compression, so it will burn darned near anything for fuel.  I simply haven't allotted the time and energy to do it.


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## sapratt (Jul 19, 2008)

We could always go back to steam powered cars.


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## renewablejohn (Jul 28, 2008)

Nothing wrong with steam so long as you treat it with respect.


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## Nofossil (Jul 29, 2008)

The problem with wood gas (and steam) for automotive use is that neither throttles well. It's impossible to go from prolonged idle to full power instantly, and vice versa.

A more promising approach might be to build a wood gas power hybrid so that the excess power can be used to charge batteries, and the batteries can provide instant power when needed.


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## Telco (Jul 29, 2008)

nofossil said:
			
		

> The problem with wood gas (and steam) for automotive use is that neither throttles well. It's impossible to go from prolonged idle to full power instantly, and vice versa.
> 
> A more promising approach might be to build a wood gas power hybrid so that the excess power can be used to charge batteries, and the batteries can provide instant power when needed.



Wow, that's an excellent idea.  As you say, using wood is more of a constant power source more suited for steady output.  A smallish battery bank that could carry the full load until the wood fired generator could be brought up to temp and stabilized, that could then provide full power to the vehicle, could be set so that it continued to charge the batteries after you arrived to your destination.  Only bad thing here is, no covered parking, ever, unless you parked outside till the stove cooled down and quit smoking.  Either that, or you'd need to come up with a way (at least at home) that you could get the stack to a chimney.  Thanks for this idea!  I'm working out the design for a gasoline electric hybrid that would use a gasoline engine soley to run a generator, but if it hits the fan and petroleum fuels are no longer viable this idea would make a fine backup.


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## renewablejohn (Jul 29, 2008)

Nofossil

Steam if used in reciprocating  engines has excellent throttle control which is why paddle steamers and steel rolling mills used steam to go from full throttle forward to full throttle in reverse in a matter of seconds. Steam turbines are a totally different animal and not suitable for automotive purposes.


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## Hansson (Jul 29, 2008)

http://www.vedbil.se/indexe.shtml


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## Adios Pantalones (Jul 29, 2008)

Those guys' project is pretty impressive, Hansson- I think the history of wood power in Sweden probably helped them along (used woodfired cars, control valves for the purpose, etc.).

I have fond memories of visiting Umea for a week's long conference.  Light most of the night, getting drunk and almost in a fight with some crazy local, eating "elk" (what we call 'moose') and frozen moose milk mousse


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## Jags (Jul 29, 2008)

Adios Pantalones said:
			
		

> ..... and frozen moose milk mousse



My brain locked up on that one.


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## Hansson (Jul 29, 2008)

Adios Pantalones said:
			
		

> Those guys' project is pretty impressive, Hansson- I think the history of wood power in Sweden probably helped them along (used woodfired cars, control valves for the purpose, etc.).
> 
> I have fond memories of visiting Umea for a week's long conference.  Light most of the night, getting drunk and almost in a fight with some crazy local, eating "elk" (what we call 'moose') and frozen moose milk mousse



 
My granfather have one woodfired car. It was very ordinary then.


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## Nofossil (Jul 30, 2008)

renewablejohn said:
			
		

> Nofossil
> 
> Steam if used in reciprocating  engines has excellent throttle control which is why paddle steamers and steel rolling mills used steam to go from full throttle forward to full throttle in reverse in a matter of seconds. Steam turbines are a totally different animal and not suitable for automotive purposes.



By 'throttle' I mean perhaps something closer to 'modulation'. The issue is that there's a good deal of thermal mass involved, so ramping from low thermal output to high thermal output (or vice versa) takes more than the fraction of a second required for a traditional internal combustion engine. I believe steam powered cars had to vent steam whenever you would crest a hill, for instance. You can pressurize the system while stopped, but it's not going to be able to give you full power right away if you want to accelerate from a stoplight to highway speeds. Low mass boilers certainly help, but as far as I know this problem has not been solved. I suspect it's inherent to that class of engines, and is a similar issue with wood gas systems.


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## renewablejohn (Jul 31, 2008)

nofossil

Thermal oil steam evaporators have solved this problem as steam produced is on demand in just the same way as the air fuel mixture of an internal combustion engine.  Certain Lister diesel engines have be converted to run on steam mainly in Australia.

Hansson

I am looking for a vintage woodgas fired tractor do they ever come up for sale at farm sales as I have seen lots of pictures of examples produced in sweden.


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## m0jumb0 (Aug 1, 2008)

I've done a lot of research of wood gasification( though I'm by far not an expert), and I think having the gasifier on your car would be too cumbersome.  What I've been thinking about is having a relatively good sized stationary installation at home and compressing the producer gas somehow and storing it.  Then you can just convert your vehicle over to run on producer gas, which is very similar to natural gas as far as energy density.  Just install a tank in the trunk and fill it up at home.  Of course you're going to be tied to such and such a radius around your home, but you could certainly save a lot commuting or running around town.  And most of the car conversions I've seen have the capability to easily switch back to gasoline so you could do that in a pinch.  Anyway, very interesting overlooked technology.  I just wish there was a good set of plans to build a simple demo gasifier with off the shelf parts that would produce gas suitable to run a B&S;engine or similar for demo purposes.  There are a lot of variables to account for in your design that make it difficult when scrounging parts from scrap metal and whatnot.


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## pybyr (Aug 1, 2008)

There are some folks experimenting with variants of the old Lister CS stationary engines (made from the 1920s to 1980s) (and the clones of the same design still made in India (nicknamed "Listeroids")) for combined heat and power (motive energy for electric generation + water jacket and exhaust heat for domestic heating), often with used vegetable cooking oil, and, increasingly as that becomes more scarce/sought after, the possibility of using wood gas, and relying on the diesel system only for "pilot ignition"; many are looking into it, but the "guru" is  Ken Boak, whose experiments and musings are chronicled at 
http://www.powercubes.com/listers.html
These Listers and clones are marvels of design from before the "planned obsolescence" era and, used within their best parameters, remarkably efficient and durable.
I' ve got a 6hp Listeroid in my barn awaiting someday deployment for CHP or backup power during outages, and maybe, if I ever hit the lottery and get to experiment full time, wood-generated producer gas use....


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## Adios Pantalones (Aug 1, 2008)

Carbon monoxide is one of the main components of the combustible gases.  Reading a couple of sources- the technology was abandoned because of pollution concerns and the convenience of oil, but more importantly for our discussion- people were dying from CO poisoning.

This looks like a lot of fun, and maybe useful for my survivalist fantasy world- but treat it with respect, and keep it outside guys!

Stay safe
-pH


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## m0jumb0 (Aug 1, 2008)

Adios Pantalones said:
			
		

> Carbon monoxide is one of the main components of the combustible gases.  Reading a couple of sources- the technology was abandoned because of pollution concerns and the convenience of oil, but more importantly for our discussion- people were dying from CO poisoning.
> 
> This looks like a lot of fun, and maybe useful for my survivalist fantasy world- but treat it with respect, and keep it outside guys!
> 
> ...



yeah, you can't overlook the importance of running your gasifier in a well-ventilated area.  however, if you're running the system at negative pressure with a blower sucking producer gas from the gasifier, any leaks will suck air (which can be dangerous in its own right).  once your engine is started up, it should be pulling a vacuum through the system as well.


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## Dune (Aug 17, 2008)

My father used a gassifier to power the diesel engine in his fishing boat in Norway during WWII. It was not a "survivalist fantasy world", just survival. Gas producers reappear whenever oil supplies dry up. Like now. As far as I know, the main problem is cleaning the gas well enough to burn without tarring up the engine. This may have been solved by now.  I thought about using this technology for cogenerating, but the filtering problem seemed too intense. By the way, the energy output of a gas producer can be increased by 20-30% via water or steam injection into the base of the fire. Typicaly the water was used to cool the gas before it entered the engine, then sprayed as a fine mist into the bed of coals, where it became "water gas".


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## brad068 (Aug 17, 2008)

Hey guys, do you remember the name Pogue?  I would like to know if his contraption really worked as well as he said but then again he is still using gasoline but 200mpg does sound great.  I seen some blueprints of his design and read some letters that were written by Ford Motor Company that state his invention was doing what he claimed but I still wonder.


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## akal60 (Mar 3, 2009)

here is a place that is selling these now, I just got mine and am going to use it for stationary power and hot water production.   http://www.allpowerlabs.org/gasification/gek/index.html


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## renewablejohn (Jun 18, 2009)

akal60 said:
			
		

> here is a place that is selling these now, I just got mine and am going to use it for stationary power and hot water production.   http://www.allpowerlabs.org/gasification/gek/index.html



Update please, Was it easy to assemble, does it work etc


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## karri0n (Jun 23, 2009)

m0jumb0 said:
			
		

> I've done a lot of research of wood gasification( though I'm by far not an expert), and I think having the gasifier on your car would be too cumbersome.  What I've been thinking about is having a relatively good sized stationary installation at home and compressing the producer gas somehow and storing it.  Then you can just convert your vehicle over to run on producer gas, which is very similar to natural gas as far as energy density.  Just install a tank in the trunk and fill it up at home.  Of course you're going to be tied to such and such a radius around your home, but you could certainly save a lot commuting or running around town.  And most of the car conversions I've seen have the capability to easily switch back to gasoline so you could do that in a pinch.  Anyway, very interesting overlooked technology.  I just wish there was a good set of plans to build a simple demo gasifier with off the shelf parts that would produce gas suitable to run a B&S;engine or similar for demo purposes.  There are a lot of variables to account for in your design that make it difficult when scrounging parts from scrap metal and whatnot.



I think the problem with "storage" as you are referring to, is that as soon as the temp drops, the wood gas begins to condense. I don't think storing it in a tank like NG/Propane will work in this case.


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## karl (Jun 24, 2009)

m0jumb0 said:
			
		

> I've done a lot of research of wood gasification( though I'm by far not an expert), and I think having the gasifier on your car would be too cumbersome.  What I've been thinking about is having a relatively good sized stationary installation at home and compressing the producer gas somehow and storing it.  Then you can just convert your vehicle over to run on producer gas, which is very similar to natural gas as far as energy density.  Just install a tank in the trunk and fill it up at home.  Of course you're going to be tied to such and such a radius around your home, but you could certainly save a lot commuting or running around town.  And most of the car conversions I've seen have the capability to easily switch back to gasoline so you could do that in a pinch.  Anyway, very interesting overlooked technology.  I just wish there was a good set of plans to build a simple demo gasifier with off the shelf parts that would produce gas suitable to run a B&S;engine or similar for demo purposes.  There are a lot of variables to account for in your design that make it difficult when scrounging parts from scrap metal and whatnot.




I looked into this last year with natural gas.  The problem is with the compressor.  They are expensive and they only last so many hundreds of hours before they have to be rebuilt.  It was a significant cost of going with natural, probably more than the gas itself.  The compressor is like 6000.00 dollars and works for 6000 hours.  So a buck an hour and it would run 4-8 hours a night.

The company went bankrupt this year, because it would take 5 dollars a gallon gas to break even with the system.


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## Adios Pantalones (Jun 24, 2009)

Dunebilly said:
			
		

> My father used a gassifier to power the diesel engine in his fishing boat in Norway during WWII. It was not a "survivalist fantasy world", just survival. Gas producers reappear whenever oil supplies dry up. Like now. As far as I know, the main problem is cleaning the gas well enough to burn without tarring up the engine. This may have been solved by now.  I thought about using this technology for cogenerating, but the filtering problem seemed too intense. By the way, the energy output of a gas producer can be increased by 20-30% via water or steam injection into the base of the fire. Typicaly the water was used to cool the gas before it entered the engine, then sprayed as a fine mist into the bed of coals, where it became "water gas".



OK- when we find ourselves blocked from getting oil by German warships- we will go to it LOL.

"For our purposes".  

Huh- this is from last year...


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## Dune (Jun 25, 2009)

Adios Pantalones said:
			
		

> OK- when we find ourselves blocked from getting oil by German warships- we will go to it LOL.
> 
> "For our purposes".
> 
> Huh- this is from last year...



Hey Pant-free, back from Germany I take it?


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## North of 60 (Jun 25, 2009)

Jags said:
			
		

> Adios Pantalones said:
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Jags, if you spent as much time on that gasifier as you do on this forum, I think all the worlds energy problem's would be solved.
Now if we added BB,s time, all the problems in the world would be solved. NOW GET TO IT :lol:

 N of 60


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## madrone (Jun 25, 2009)

Just a little modification...

http://www.saabhistory.com/2008/04/04/the-nine-cylinder-saab-steam-engine/


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## Jags (Jun 25, 2009)

north of 60 said:
			
		

> Jags said:
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Yeah, probably.  But my time spent here is multi-tasking.  I still need that paycheck.  But if I were to win the lotto......


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## karri0n (Jun 25, 2009)

Jags said:
			
		

> north of 60 said:
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????!

They don't let you do gasification experiments in your cubicle? What type of place is this?! Never will I work for a company such as this.


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## Jags (Jun 25, 2009)

karri0n said:
			
		

> Jags said:
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Trust me, my office has too many "experiments" going on now. :lol:


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## karri0n (Jun 25, 2009)

Jags said:
			
		

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Bahaha,

sounds a lot like mine.


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## Gooserider (Jun 25, 2009)

Just as a minor historical note, the old "Stanley Steamer" from the early days of autmotive history, held the wheel-driven Land Speed Record for several years, and supposedly worked much better than the petroleum engines of it's day...  Also the predecessor to the engine of the Stanley Steamer, was first used in the "Roper Cycle" - a steam powered motorcycle invented by Stanley's partner Roper, who demonstrated it running at a reported 30mph on what is now the Storrow Drive bicycle path in Boston.  This was several years before Daimler did his original fossil fuel engine "motorcycle" contraption in Germany, (top speed SEVEN mph) and unlike Daimler's rather odd looking device, the Roper Cycle looked recognizably like a motorcycle.  If one gets rid of the "internal combustion" part of the definition of "Motorcycle", the Roper Cycle would have been the "first motorcycle" by several years.

Unfortunately, Roper was also the first "Motorcycle Accident Fatality" - he crashed at the end of his return run.  However it does not appear that this was due to a failure in the motorcycle, eyewitness reports and the post-accident investigation suggest that Roper had a heart attack shortly before the end of the run, and may well have been dead before the crash.

Gooserider


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## rfactor (Aug 11, 2009)

Here's a PDF version of the plans for the FEMA downdraft wood gasifier:

http://wood-gas.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/woodgas12.pdf


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## TreePapa (Aug 14, 2009)

Mad Max anybody?

Although the Mad Max cars where not gasifiers, they would have fit right it, esp. in Thunderdome.

I do recall a similar movie in which the cars might have been wood-gas powered, or at least made to look like they were wood powered. But I can't recall the name or details of the film.

Peace,
- Sequoia


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## Gooserider (Aug 14, 2009)

TreePapa said:
			
		

> Mad Max anybody?
> 
> Although the Mad Max cars where not gasifiers, they would have fit right it, esp. in Thunderdome.
> 
> ...



I have a very vague memory of a movie I saw back when I was a kid, of the WWII military hero genre...  Our hero was an aviator shot down by the Japs over some large island (Philipines??)  He lands near a semi abandoned village w/ population of a bunch of abandonned school age kids and one (sexy of course) white missionary woman / love interest that must be transported several hundred miles over mountains and jungle terrain and some water to get back to US forces...  He did a McGiver and made a wood gasifier to power this old yellow schoolbus w/ dried coconut husks and went off trekking with bus full of kids, love interest, etc. - w/ one or two kids sitting on roof of bus periodically tossing coconut hulls into the gas generator...  Much melodrama, only part really memorable was when he looses brakes on a steep curvy downhill and has valiant struggle to maintain control of bus...  Little kid decides this is fun and starts making siren noises, then when they stop at bottom of hill, and our hero is collapsing over steering wheel in relief, tells him "That fun soldier, lets do again!"...   :lol: 

Gooserider


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