# Harman, the REAL story



## webbie (Jul 21, 2008)

Well, as anyone who has followed along may know, I have given Harman and their new parent company the benefit of the doubt up until now.

But the news from MANY directions indicates a systemic problem....not just one of production....but one of just plain old not caring.

Dealers are being left to fend for themselves - given no information or bad information. This includes dealers whose entire livelihood is based on the Harman brand. Many of these dealers will be in danger of going out of business based on the lack of product from Harman.

Harmans attitude is that they don't want to talk to dealers or the press. Lawsuits and attorney general actions have been threatened against Harman...or are in progress. There is absolutely no communication from the factory except edicts. No back and forth.

Yes, the BIG meeting with a bunch of dealers is today, but meetings don't make stoves nor do they change corporate attitudes. From afar - or even from close in - we have no idea of what is going on in the corporate suite. It might be to bury Harman in favor of Quadrafire....switch over the dealers......sure, I pulled that out of thin air, but this situation is 100% in the hands of corporate bean-counters who would not know how to chop a piece of wood if you gave them a maul and a round.

Sad to say, this looks like another corporate take-over where the "soul" of a company is gutted and the brand is milked or whatever fits the corporate planners. Keep in mind that even the "big" Harman business is a fraction of what the same company does selling gas fireplaces, office furniture, etc.

At this point I would not suggest that any customer buy a Harman stove that is not in stock - and if you do put a deposit down, put it on credit card so you can dispute the charge if the stove does not come.

Sad to say, we have come to a real case of "buyer beware". Who is going to be there to service the stoves when the Harman dealers closes because they have no revenue (no stoves)? Who is going to answer the phone at the factory about service or parts?

Watch your money, folks......


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## begreen (Jul 21, 2008)

What a shame. So what's the deal? This should be a time of jubilation for them. Are they really producing stoves as fast as they can or have they just been selling off a massive backlog of inventory? Do you know how large a crew and how many shifts are producing new stoves? Or is there no one left behind the doors but the janitor? Anyone in Halifax, PA have the straight and skinny on activity at the plant?


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## webbie (Jul 21, 2008)

I think the second is closer to the truth than the first..........but, again, the corporate ladder protects against people knowing what is really happening...that is the whole idea! There are probably 10 people who really know.......

We do know that the factory is not working full tilt - some rumors say only a tiny bit of capacity is being used. For what reason is another story......could be anything....maybe the parent company only has so much capital, maybe it is in the process of overseas sourcing, etc. etc - maybe they are just plain incapable. Coule be anything.....

This is a company that used to communicate with their dealers.....but, according to dealers, has stopped doing that. The new attitude is (my paraphrase) "send them to the legal dept"......

Just the fact that this company refused to speak to the press in those articles (and many more articles coming up) shows a clear direction.


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## Turbozcs2003 (Jul 21, 2008)

I think we will have to wait to see what the story is.

If they really didnt care, they certainly wouldnt bother having a meeting with the dealers, would they.

Something tells me they are looking for input on how to best resolve this going forward.

Time will tell I guess.


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## begreen (Jul 21, 2008)

It may be telling that the Hearth & Home website still does not include Harman amongst its listed brands. Harman is listed on the HNI website, but not Hearth & Home's.


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## BrotherBart (Jul 21, 2008)

The company has been essentially shut down since last summer and the aquisition didn't close until the 4th quarter. I have never understood why anybody thought it was going to be life as usual. Dane is doubly screwed since he kept some of the liabilities and the sale terms provided for future added payments to him based on company performance. That ain't gonna happen. If there was as much inventory stacked up before the sale as talked about, HHT got their 29 mil back just selling that off. Not to mention that the patents are now safely in their name.

Dane is headed out the door in 3...2...1...


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## webbie (Jul 21, 2008)

YOU are using common sense....but that is not in play here. Dealers pretty much insisted on a meeting......again, third hand - but I think the dealers pretty much said they were driving down come hell or high water, etc.

As to input, they have had that for many months and didn't listen....so it makes no sense that they would now! Expecting a corporation to act like a person may be asking too much,



			
				TurboZ said:
			
		

> I think we will have to wait to see what the story is.
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> If they really didnt care, they certainly wouldnt bother having a meeting with the dealers, would they.
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## nhdblfan (Jul 21, 2008)

As I have posted before,and once again I am one of the ones with a deposit of 2K for an order placed first week in June.
There are several big questions and it does not look very good.

They seem to have built a new warehouse and added employees (no one to answer a phone thou !) yet according to the articles posted they can't even meet last years production and are only giving dealers less that 25% of what they where able to do last season.

more facilites,more employees and 78% LESS production????????????????????????????


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## fueldude (Jul 21, 2008)

My rep informed me that Harman has outsold their yearly production capacity by 3-4 times, and that stove delivery is out 3-6 months. They have also suspended taking on new dealers and are cutting any dealers that applied in 2008. This includes dealers that were approved and had confirmed orders. 

It may be nothing new to some people, but it was unwelcome news to me!


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## webbie (Jul 21, 2008)

The facts are unbelievable  - dealers and customers like to think that there is no way this company would do something so stupid. But facts are hard things to dispute! The next question becomes whether people will believe what comes out of the meeting.......

Last year they produced almost nothing....It was the year before that they had high production. There were 20,000+ stoves in the warehouses when HHT took over. I tend to think very few have been produced since that time (based on reports)....


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## Fire It Up (Jul 21, 2008)

What is the REAL story? 

Everything posted is second hand knowledge and assumptions at this point.


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## BrotherBart (Jul 21, 2008)

If they sold them for an average of $1,500 apiece the aquisition is paid for.


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## fueldude (Jul 21, 2008)

Fire It Up said:
			
		

> What is the REAL story?
> 
> Everything posted is second hand knowledge and assumptions at this point.



I was a dealer that was approved and had my order confirmed. I got the phone call two weeks ago telling me that I am no longer a dealer and for the reasons stated above. Maybe Harman is feeding my rep a line, but I'd be hard pressed to buy that becuase my rep relationship isn't new.


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## Fire It Up (Jul 21, 2008)

fueldude said:
			
		

> Fire It Up said:
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I don't debate the fact that dealers are being denied orders in Maine, but we haven't seen much in the case of facts, but more just assumptions, etc. I have spoken with my dealer whom was highlighted in the recent articles here in Maine as early as Friday, and he hadn't been given a "This is the exact reason you are not getting all your orders, and here is what we are going to do going forward". From my knowledge they are meeting as we speak to discuss arrangements. 

Until then, I will hold back on my assumptions, and take it all with a grain of salt. I was just point out for a topic that says "The REAL Story", it wasn't too heavy on facts, but more opinions and assumptions. Just my .02, that's all.


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## fueldude (Jul 21, 2008)

Oh, I hear ya. It is frustrating coming from a company who was supposed to be easy to deal with. Sure does throw a wrench in things when you think you are getting stoves and then the phone rings telling you otherwise as you have customers coming in the door wanting to order. When I pressed the issue, the reasons I were given for not getting any stoves are already listed. It will be interesting to see what happens after this week.


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## Fire It Up (Jul 21, 2008)

Being heavily involved in large company's integrations and acquisitions as a project manager there could be a variety of reasons for this issue. First item of any merger type business deal is to keep the customer first and try to reduce any influence in supply and product quality. I doubt seriously that this was just a miss calculation in ordering and supply inventory as well as a result of intentions to just stiff the customer. Oversight in production output, delayed orders being processed, etc is a possibility. 

My assumption is that we are seeing the failure of an organization realignment. You have a VP of production or sales that on X date was dropped a fire in his lap. He showed up for a meeting and was told with the rest of the company that he would now head up not only what he was doing, but now also Harman, and on top of all this he would be in charge of the integration of both entities. He probably dropped the ball due to inexperience, or he was not paying attention to work because his wife was cheating on him, or his kid just broke his arm skateboarding, or he just lost his house in a fire due to a Harman stove, etc. We can only assume. 

That being said, it is what it is, and people should have a contingency plan if they are not getting a Harman. Gotta deal with the punches being thrown.


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## nhdblfan (Jul 21, 2008)

Well I think there are some facts that should bring up some very biq questions.
Fact;deliveries to dealers amount to fractions of what they where able to do before and don't even approach previous productions.(I would say there is a very big concern that Harman and some dealers will even be solvent)
Fact;they are not answerting questions and have been l less then truthfull (lying) to dealers about deliveries and dealerships that where established then disolved(breach of contract?)
Deposits and warranties issues along with what will the quality be of those few that are comming of the line (must not be a fun place to work about now) are now in question IMO.
Facts are there and they are not good,

They would not be the first company to go down by incompetent management and leave lots of financial losses.


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## NoMoreOPEC (Jul 21, 2008)

Does anyone know when the new models Quadra-Harman's will be coming out?


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## ugenetoo (Jul 21, 2008)

harmon is a good product. but there are other brands out there to produce heat with. its time to get beyond this soap opera and get on with the business of getting ready for winter. all this hand wringing will not help keep you warm in 6 months. jmhfo


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## compressedwoodsupplier (Jul 21, 2008)

I love this part of the harman website says about there new warehouse 



The new Harman warehouse is now open. This addition to Harman Stove's shipping capabilities will help ensure that we keep up with demand for our hearth products this heating season.  



Just love the wording and look at where they are now


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## MishMouse (Jul 21, 2008)

I could see why Harman would have issues.
Since they had a over production issue that caused this whole mess, a new company taking over would most likely cut production to avoid it happening again. But then add the incredible rise in oil prices and heating costs along with the problems with CFM you have a situation where demand outweighs supply. Then once the crisis hits and they have to build up inventory in a hurry it may not be even possible since they also rely on steel and metal suppliers. Allot of information is still hidden on this. 
I hope Harman pulls itself up from these issues they make a very good quality stove and with both Harman and CFM having issues who's next?


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## webbie (Jul 21, 2008)

Fire It Up said:
			
		

> What is the REAL story?
> 
> Everything posted is second hand knowledge and assumptions at this point.



Well, the question becomes what is first hand? We know from dealers. We know from customers. Harman has refused to talk to the media.

If it quacks like a duck it probably is one. If dealers see and hear the duck and tell us here (and me on the side), then I assume there is a duck. 

Will Harman invite me to a meeting of the CEO and Board and tell me the truth? Of course not.......

Stuff like them cutting off dealers 100% is pretty much historic. I think these people need a high cost consultant, but I want paid up front.....since the customer and dealers appear to have done the same.


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## nhdblfan (Jul 21, 2008)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Fire It Up said:
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## tonto (Jul 21, 2008)

made a few call today myself,every place i called is sold out of harmans,but a few are taking deposits but they do not know how many or when they will be arriving.INCREDIBLE!!


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## cncpro (Jul 21, 2008)

> All Harman Stoves are Proudly Made in America



I have absolutely no knowledge about the whole Harman situation but my gut feeling is that they'll be removing the above quote from their website before this mess is fixed.  This whole thing smells like corporate greed and the exportation of American jobs.  I hope I'm wrong.


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## begreen (Jul 22, 2008)

Fire It Up said:
			
		

> Being heavily involved in large company's integrations and acquisitions as a project manager there could be a variety of reasons for this issue. First item of any merger type business deal is to keep the customer first and try to reduce any influence in supply and product quality. I doubt seriously that this was just a miss calculation in ordering and supply inventory as well as a result of intentions to just stiff the customer. Oversight in production output, delayed orders being processed, etc is a possibility.
> 
> My assumption is that we are seeing the failure of an organization realignment. You have a VP of production or sales that on X date was dropped a fire in his lap. He showed up for a meeting and was told with the rest of the company that he would now head up not only what he was doing, but now also Harman, and on top of all this he would be in charge of the integration of both entities. He probably dropped the ball due to inexperience, or he was not paying attention to work because his wife was cheating on him, or his kid just broke his arm skateboarding, or he just lost his house in a fire due to a Harman stove, etc. We can only assume.
> 
> That being said, it is what it is, and people should have a contingency plan if they are not getting a Harman. Gotta deal with the punches being thrown.



Ironically the last quarterly statement shows a big drop in the hearth division's sales due to the decline in new home construction. But they hope to make up some of these losses via the growing alternative energy sector aka multi-fuel stoves.


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## tkirk22 (Jul 22, 2008)

cncpro said:
			
		

> > All Harman Stoves are Proudly Made in America
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> I have absolutely no knowledge about the whole Harman situation but my gut feeling is that they'll be removing the above quote from their website before this mess is fixed.



Ding Ding. We have a winner.

/fixed a truck in front of a Holiday Inn Express last night.


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## arthurlange (Jul 22, 2008)

Why may I ask is there such a big uprising about ONE brand of stove?   Personally i think ALL ...and i mean ALL the dealers that are hurting and have to give money back, saw the green and the $$$$$ UP FRONT and didnt think properly about all the surroundings going on. I HEAR ALOT OF "CORPORATE GREED" being the factor in this problem at harman(HHT).. HAS ANYONE THOUGHT OF "DEALER GREED?". What i mean by that is, they HAD to know they werent the only dealers selling stove upon stove upon stove, NO MATTER WHAT BRAND.   And in my personal opinion, I think taking deposits that can come back and haunt you on product that (especially at this time)  you have no idea of when you are getting is a bit of bad buisness.


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## cimbo190 (Jul 22, 2008)

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				arthurlange said:
			
		


			Why may I ask is there such a big uprising about ONE brand of stove?   Personally i think ALL ...and i mean ALL the dealers that are hurting and have to give money back, saw the green and the $$$$$ UP FRONT and didnt think properly about all the surroundings going on. I HEAR ALOT OF "CORPORATE GREED" being the factor in this problem at harman(HHT).. HAS ANYONE THOUGHT OF "DEALER GREED?". What i mean by that is, they HAD to know they werent the only dealers selling stove upon stove upon stove, NO MATTER WHAT BRAND.   And in my personal opinion, I think taking deposits that can come back and haunt you on product that (especially at this time)  you have no idea of when you are getting is a bit of bad buisness.
		
Click to expand...

*
Right on.


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## Downeaster (Jul 22, 2008)

Since everyone is throwing in their assumptions, I might as well give you mine.  I worked in the boatbuilding industry for more years than I care to think about.  It is very common for one company to buy out the competition, finish filling orders that have been taken and then destroy the molds essentially removing the competition.  This situation kinda looks the same, except for the filling orders part.  I will add, that I too was burned by Harman.  I went to my dealer and bought a pellet stove that will be delivered the first of August, and will be installed in my home in late August.


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## webbie (Jul 22, 2008)

arthurlange said:
			
		

> Why may I ask is there such a big uprising about ONE brand of stove?



You mean the one big brand of pellet stove that went bust last year and then was bought out by a large company? Obviously, they have something to prove! As to dealer greed, the dealers have confirmation that they were getting their orders. It is not up to a dealer to consider that a manufacturer will mislead them......

It is a pretty big deal in this industry when thousands of stove orders....already sold to dealers and customers....are not fulfilled. In fact, I don't think it has happened in almost 30 years!

So that is the big deal.


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## Turbozcs2003 (Jul 22, 2008)

arthurlange said:
			
		

> Why may I ask is there such a big uprising about ONE brand of stove?   Personally i think ALL ...and i mean ALL the dealers that are hurting and have to give money back, saw the green and the $$$$$ UP FRONT and didnt think properly about all the surroundings going on. I HEAR ALOT OF "CORPORATE GREED" being the factor in this problem at harman(HHT).. HAS ANYONE THOUGHT OF "DEALER GREED?". What i mean by that is, they HAD to know they werent the only dealers selling stove upon stove upon stove, NO MATTER WHAT BRAND.   And in my personal opinion, I think taking deposits that can come back and haunt you on product that (especially at this time)  you have no idea of when you are getting is a bit of bad buisness.




It is only bad business if they dont refund their customers money.

I do agree about people going overboard about corporate greed yadayadayada  on here without hearing the outcome going forward.  To many rumours.  Worst case people wait for a stove or request their money back. Life is too short to worry about a stove.


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## slls (Jul 22, 2008)

I keep thinking about that huge new warehouse to store stoves. They have to be coming from China, seeing that nothing seems to be going on at Harmon factory.


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## ugenetoo (Jul 22, 2008)

Webmaster said:
			
		

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 it hasnt happened yet. its still mid-july and all i read about is someone whipping up the peanut gallery about harmon not honoring their committments. at least allow their allotted time frame to expire before dissing them.
if there are concerns about stove availability, go to another manufacturer. im sure someone will treat you right!


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## webbie (Jul 22, 2008)

Lots of folks who thought they were going to get stoves this summer and fall - are not......

That is the crux of the story. It is probably hitting Quad and Harman harder because they are popular brands and sold nationally...and when it comes to the Harman situation, some bad decisions were made (or maybe they are good for the long run). 

Heck, my info is usually WORSE than what comes from the dealers and consumers here. My point is this - up until this week I, along with most people and dealers, assumed that Quad/Harman would be able to turn up the production lines to meet demand. Now the jury is in - they will not! I suppose that is a good position to be in  - better than having too many stoves in the warehouse. 

At this point we will sit back and watch the reports come in - and likely we will see more news articles. Hopefully, Quad and Harman will hire a PR firm that knows how to inform the customer and the public of what is going on.


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## nhdblfan (Jul 22, 2008)

" I, along with most people and dealers, assumed that Quad/Harman would be able to turn up the production lines to meet demand. Now the jury is in - they will not!"

not being able to turn up production is one thing but it seems,from the reports, they can't even do a small fraction of previous years production.

Far from "whipping up the peanut gallery",there are lots of customers who left a deposit on a Harman pellet stove early this summer and now have to come up with another way to heat their home this winter.For many that means trying to find  additional funds that are just not availble for fuel oil prebuys.Waiting for the "alloted time frame" will leave many more out in the cold.The time to find out why and what Harman is going to do is NOW.


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## webbie (Jul 22, 2008)

nhdblfan said:
			
		

> not being able to turn up production is one thing but it seems,from the reports, they can't even do a small fraction of previous years production.
> 
> Far from "whipping up the peanut gallery",there are lots of customers who left a deposit on a Harman pellet stove early this summer and now have to come up with another way to heat their home this winter.



Remember, they produced very few stoves last year - 2006-2007!

I'm pretty sure they will produce more than last year. But, yes, the whole point of this conversation is to protect people who may have deposits or paid in full stoves.....or be thinking of placing one. 

The good news, if you can call it that, is that as of now I think the factories (quad/harman) are giving realistic lead times. We have Quad customers reporting installs for Jan/Feb. That does not mean that a lot of stoves will not go out to dealers before that....just that others are in line.


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## webbie (Jul 22, 2008)

Just heard that Travis (Lopi Avalon) is sold out of pellet stoves until 2009 also......


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## BrotherBart (Jul 22, 2008)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Just heard that Travis (Lopi Avalon) is sold out of pellet stoves until 2009 also......



I need to stop in at the local stove store. Their brands are Harman, Lopi and Hearthstone.

Of course it doesn't get cold around here so it won't make much difference.


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## tinkabranc (Jul 22, 2008)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Just heard that Travis (Lopi Avalon) is sold out of pellet stoves until 2009 also......



A friend of mine has a small family shop and they sell Travis stoves. He told me this weekend that
he had to stopped taking orders on his pellet stoves for a while because they are so backed up 
with orders.  They do not normally outsource their installation services but may be forced to this year.

people are panicking.


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## BrotherBart (Jul 22, 2008)

Hey Craig. Ya gotta spare room to rent out starting in December? I think I see a land office business in servicing pellet stoves popping up around those parts.

Be kinda like the "storm troopers" that drop in and set up body shops in tents after major hail storms.

        "Alternative Heating Services"
"We Didn't Make It. We Just Make It Work"


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## ScubaSteve (Jul 22, 2008)

Here is what I can add to the mix via insider information from sources in the HHT family. very limited production has happened sense the buyout on Harman product. They have sold out of most stocked inventory. HHT four years ago went to a "make on order" system. Just like back in the last few years of Harman when times were good they are waiting on parts from over seas. They have stopped taking and canceled some new dealers.  HHT a few years back had the same issues with there Quad line and tried to distribute product evenly to all areas but I can tell you 1st hand certain dealers will get special treatment (we did). Anyone remember how great it was to work with Heatilator before Heat N Glo and Quadrafire came on board? The problem is they put the wrong people in charge of things instead of Heatilator people they went with Heat n Glo / Quad people.  In short they purchased market share  when they purchased Harman and like other purchases they have made, it has backfired on them ( does Eddy George in the chicago area ring a bell?)All they got out of that deal was a empty warehouse and no market share.Good thing the stockholders are blind to all this as they hide all this in the reports.They only reason they looked good last quarter was the 50 million dollar loan they took out to cover dividents and get it while they still could. There operation profit for the Hearth segment fell again from 9.7 % to 1.6 % you cant blame that on builder business. Plain and simple they are a sinking ship blinding the stockholders with the "we are positioning our self for the future". Sorry but the future is not good as that make it seem.


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## mlwschultz (Jul 22, 2008)

What does all of this mean for those us has that have just bought a Harman stove (that's been delivered & installed by the dealer)?  The dealer just delivered 3 more tons of pellets Friday afternoon & said they are sold out of stoves for the year.


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## gw2kpro (Jul 22, 2008)

mlwschultz said:
			
		

> What does all of this mean for those us has that have just bought a Harman stove (that's been delivered & installed by the dealer)?  The dealer just delivered 3 more tons of pellets Friday afternoon & said they are sold out of stoves for the year.



Just like in any industry, if your dealer goes belly-up, best of luck getting service from them because they're no longer an entity.  If the parent company goes belly-up, there's no more warranty, your recourse will have the words "class action" associated with them and will take years to get your $100 settlement.

This is one of the reasons that I bought my stoves for the absolute rock bottom deal I could find them online, I contracted one install and the other I'm doing myself.  I have taken them both down and understand well how they work, and could do most repair work myself.  I wasn't going to pay $1200-1500 more per stove to have the "peace of mind" of the local dealer (I have the "peace of mind" of having more than $2500 extra in my pocket between the two, which would buy me almost 2 more stoves) , I feel very bad for the people that are going to get hurt by thie Harman deal, there are going to be a lot of dealerships go out of business.


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## MCPO (Jul 22, 2008)

gw2kpro said:
			
		

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My sentiments exactly!
 John


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## webbie (Jul 22, 2008)

As a long term hearth industry member, I have my reservations about all the panic(s) and run-on-the-banks. It's strange, because my job is to promote the business (or my creed, or whatever), but at the same time I tend to side with the customer when it comes to protecting them.

I hear many stories that make me shudder......as BB says, people making foolish decisions. One neighbor told me that they were spending a lot of money on a fancy pellet stove and extra hopper setup.......they need a big hopper because.....well, because it is two older people that live together - neither can lift a bag of pellets. So they hope someone else or their son can come over and fuel up the stove! Bad decision, IMHO.

I appreciate the update from the horses mouth (RE: Harman/Quad)..... I heard some similar tales, but tried not to repeat them since I am not on the inside. Sadly, it looks like one more case where the bean-counters and corporate types see stoves as "product" and people as "numbers". I sincerely hope differently, and I know there are some people in the org who do care....but part of me wishes that Dane would have been able to hold on for another year. It seems the small guy doesn't have much chance these days!


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## newf lover (Jul 22, 2008)

I plan on calling my dealer tomorrow and hopefully will get some answers on getting a stove in a reasonable time or getting my money back. While I wish I was as handy, or my husband was as handy as some people on this board, we are mechanical morons. I don't feel I have a choice but to go with a local dealer who I hope will be in business when I need them. One reason I picked a Harman was because it seems to be (or had been) pretty reliable. If this falls through, you can bet I won't be buying a Harman or Quad, and I'll probably wait to shop until Feb./March and hope for a mild winter. I will also add to my research the financial condition of the company and if there is any chance of an acquisition in the near future. It shouldn't be this complicated to buy a damn stove.  Those 3 tons of pellets sure look pretty in my basement.


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## BrotherBart (Jul 22, 2008)

The ironic thing about this last year is that here we are with the market that all stove makers and dealers have to have been praying for every since 1980. About the time it arrives a heck of a lot of production capacity has been sitting idle, people layed off, makers in financial trouble and on and on and on. VC and Harman represented a big chunk of yearly stove production. And I am betting VC ain't getting them out the door any faster than Harman is right now. I have worked for four companies that were taken over. I can assure you that there ain't sqat happening productivity wise at either one right now. New management coming through the door, people wondering if they still have jobs. The turmoil is mind boggling.


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## tonto (Jul 22, 2008)

newf lover
i was at deans stove and spa in southington sunday and they had 6 lopi leydens in stock,thats according to the sales rep. not sure where that stands today,but just wanted to mention that just in case you were still looking.also called a place in guilford who had a p61A 1 left but refused to sell to me because i lived too far from them.called them back today and it was sold.


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## globewyre (Jul 22, 2008)

A harman dealer called me today and said they would have a p68 by october to early november.  I left a deposite for one.    This is the same dealer that was pushing harman DVC earlier in the summer.  The reason for the call is that Harman put a hold on coal stove to make more pellets.  I would not get a coal stove till December or even January.  The sale person said they were allocated a certain number of pellets stove for the rest of the year.  I hope he is right and not giving a sales pitch.   I am also considering quadra fire another dealer has in stock.  I have to wait til they survey my house before they wll take an order.  That will happen later this month.


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## pellet0708 (Jul 23, 2008)

Giovanni said:
			
		

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Same here.  Saved hundreds online (enough to buy 3 ton of pellets)   and there are plenty of little guys out there who do good work and need the work this winter to get all the service you need.  Plus my online stove has full warrenty for parts.


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## LarmanNY (Jul 23, 2008)

Would you mind sharing what stove you bought?  My head be spinning with all the choices.




			
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## STOVEGUY11 (Jul 23, 2008)

There is just way too many stories flying at this point, and impossible to figure which are true at this point. I have been talking to people about this for weeks and its giving me a headache. I cant wait to see how this all gets worked out. I dont even like pellet stoves, and I hate them more now!


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## webbie (Jul 23, 2008)

Stoveguy, like the sig......

BUT, I have put stoves in the front seat and back seats of cars.......I made sure to put the seat belt on....

I remember putting one into a Datsun...........

Never let it be said we turned down a sale. 

As to the Harman situation, I think most of the stuff guessed at or otherwise stated here is pretty accurate. There is no one reason for stuff like this, just a combination of bozos. Read Dilbert for more......


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## STOVEGUY11 (Jul 23, 2008)

My big question is.....Are dealers For Harman going to at least see the stoves that have been Alocated to them, or is it over?


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## webbie (Jul 23, 2008)

I think they will see the 110%, and in some cases seem more........but many had (have) sold more than the 100%. Another question is the exact time frame - traditionally, dealers and customers have not wanted to take delivery of too many stoves after thanksgiving....because when lead times for installation are figured in, that goes right into the holidays.

Things could change quickly. Oil may head down to $100 or less a bbl. Harman may pump things up. It is a moving target.


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## mascoma (Jul 23, 2008)

I talked to my harman dealer this morning, he just got back from the plant last night.
His story...
He will get enough stoves for all deposits he took, as long as some folks don't mind waiting until Nov for theirs.   he is one of 3 dealers who are that lucky.  He was also smart enough to stop taking deposits in early july when harman stopped providing estimated delivery dates.   
Harman told them that they have put $7million into  the plant in the last 6 weeks trying to ramp up production and retooling the lines.  
He claims the plant was the busiest he has ever seen it. 
Harman is not in danger of closing, and will still produce stoves in the US.  

The dealers who thought they could actually sell/build 4x the stoves as last year are the ones who will have issues.  

My story.  Put a deposit on a  P61A June 5th, that was already on order for dealer stock and was due in mid July, after getting new hard numbers from harman the date is now early sept.  I can live with that.

Now I just have to get a date on my pellet delivery.


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## BrotherBart (Jul 23, 2008)

Well heck, sounds like life is good and everything is going to be just fine.


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## BubbRubb (Jul 23, 2008)

What a difference a day makes!  Any predictions that tomorrow's Harman news turns back to doom and gloom?


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## Turbozcs2003 (Jul 23, 2008)

Thanks for the update

Your explanation sounds a lot more valid than the other "theories" about the demise of Harman.

I have a stove ordered June 7th so I hope Harman does a first in first out remedy. If they were/are smart they Harman should send a letter to each customer with a deposit on a stove indicating that they will attempt to deliver the stove at a projected date. 
The dealers will probably do nothing since most appear to be mom and pop operations.


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## mascoma (Jul 23, 2008)

if your dealer was one looking at refunding deposits his outlook may not be the same.


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## nhdblfan (Jul 23, 2008)

"He will get enough stoves for all deposits he took, as long as some folks don’t mind waiting until Nov for theirs.  *he is one of 3 dealers who are that lucky*."

ok,so if you are lucky enough to have a stove ordered by "one of 3 dealers" you might actually get it this fall,early winter.

thats good news??

assuming they are not making this up to continue to lead on the dealers,how do I know if my dealer hit the lottery?


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## mascoma (Jul 23, 2008)

your dealer should have info this week to give you a realistic date.  

If your dealer sold 50 stoves last year and your deposit is his #235 for this year you are probably not going to be happy.


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## MCPO (Jul 23, 2008)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Stoveguy, like the sig......
> 
> 
> As to the Harman situation, I think most of the stuff guessed at or otherwise stated here is pretty accurate. There is no one reason for stuff like this, just a combination of bozos. Read Dilbert for more......



The Harman situation / mystery is not good but speculation and guessing adds nothing.  Trashing them and name calling unknown individuals doesn`t help the situation either.   Not that I`m defending them but anyone who paid up front for a stove not in stock has to assume some of the liability for being so foolish along with those money grabbing opportunistic dealers.. 
 To be sure, I definitely would not have put down more than $50 to secure a stove that was not in stock.  If the dealer doesn`t have the resources to finance inventory he probably shouldn`t be in the business.
 Let`s just hope that Harman doesn`t go belly up and that they eventually deliver most of what some money hungry dealers promised.
 All this negativity is bad for everyone.
 John


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## ugenetoo (Jul 23, 2008)

Giovanni said:
			
		

> Webmaster said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


EXACTLY!


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## nhdblfan (Jul 23, 2008)

Try and get a dealer to hold a stove for just $50 when they have a demand like there was this spring. When I was shopping,early June over 90 outside and the fireplace shops where full of customers.
I doubt any dealer who did not take a sizeable deposit will be around long.

easy to say what you would or wouldn't do on a message board, much harder to put in action when you are buying one.


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## MCPO (Jul 23, 2008)

nhdblfan said:
			
		

> Try and get a dealer to hold a stove for just $50 when they have a demand like there was this spring. When I was shopping,early June over 90 outside and the fireplace shops where full of customers.
> I doubt any dealer who did not take a sizeable deposit will be around long.
> 
> easy to say what you would or wouldn't do on a message board, much harder to put in action when you are buying one.



No, not at all. We all have our tipping points. If you were one of those who ran scared and tied up a tidy sum of money on a promise that`s your personal predicament but I would refuse to be held hostage by some unscrupulous stove shop proprietor who demands full payment up front or an unreasonably large deposit . There are other choices. I wouldn`t go falling in love with any particular pellet stove over their looks.  They all throw similar amounts of heat and some cost considerably less too.
 I mean we are buying a stove here, not a wife.


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## nhdblfan (Jul 23, 2008)

Giovanni said:
			
		

> nhdblfan said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Your "tipping point", which is no more then message board BS ,would have got you a simple "theres the door" and "next" and I wouldn't have blamed them.Look at it from a sellers point,"Lets see line of real customers here and some bozo who is looking to order $4k and does not want to put any serious money up,hmmm."
 Again, tell me the name a of that stove shop that takes orders on several thousand dollar stoves for less than a tank of gas??????Can you even go to Lowes,Home Depot and do that NO.


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## MCPO (Jul 23, 2008)

nhdblfan said:
			
		

> Giovanni said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Judging by your anger you sound like you fell for someone`s "BS" and not mine. 
Ok , I can go along with the usual 10% down payment but shelling out any more has to be silly on the purchasers part and edging close to being suckered. 
 Legitimate shop owners and smart business folk don`t usually show potential customers the door or require unreasonable down payments.  What`s happening presently is a blip and over a short period of time this situation will level out.
 Lighten up and be patient.


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## MCPO (Jul 23, 2008)

nhdblfan said:
			
		

> "He will get enough stoves for all deposits he took, as long as some folks don’t mind waiting until Nov for theirs.  *he is one of 3 dealers who are that lucky*."
> 
> ok,so if you are lucky enough to have a stove ordered by "one of 3 dealers" you might actually get it this fall,early winter.
> 
> ...



Possibly those 3 dealers weren`t greedy and didn`t promise more than the 110% they were told they could sell.


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## slls (Jul 23, 2008)

I wonder what a manufacturer requests, when a dealer puts in a stove order, I have not idea.


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## Turbozcs2003 (Jul 23, 2008)

who knows how much harman would want as a deposit.

I put 500$ down on the stove I ordered.  

If everyone didnt have to put a deposit down, then I could go to 5 Harman dealers and order one. Then first one comes in I buy and blow off the other 4 dealers??   Of course that makes it look like to Harman that they have a boat load of orders.

I hope a lot of people cancel and the serious people who are willing to ride it out get a stove. Perhaps the other folks will find another stove from someone else.

I still feel Haramn should promise dealers nothing and tell them that they will satisfy current oreders by the date they were entered into Harman's system.  That way people who ordered first get their stoves first, not some dealer who speculated and ordered a bunch of unsold stoves.


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## nhdblfan (Jul 23, 2008)

Giovanni said:
			
		

> nhdblfan said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ok I will try this real sloooooooow so you understand.You are not going to find ANY dealer who will take $50 down on a item he has to order that is several thousand dollars.This is especially true when the market is strong.He has to put money up when he places a order.
There was NO being silly or anthing cloe to being "suckered".You obviously have not been around any business or done any purchasing of a item that need to be ordered.Contracts are written and deposits are placed all over this industry.Thats not "BS" 
Once again,before you shoot from the hip and act how you not going to put down a deposit for more than $50 and get a stove,tell us all where this dealer is who take orders like that????That would not be a "smart business folk".

From here;
http://kennebecjournal.mainetoday.com/news/local/5240413.html

"Dyer's store also racked up $5,800 in credit card processing fees for her store's sales last month alone. That is coupled with overtime she paid her staff to work the weekends her store was bustling with customers."

$5800 is the 2% on the CC fees that would equal more than $250,000 in one month(thats not at $50.00 a stove!)

so where are all these dealers Givoni  who take orders for $50.00?????Name them!


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## STOVEGUY11 (Jul 23, 2008)

The real story is everyone panicked and bought a pellet stove like it was the newest craze. Newsflash They have been making them for decades. Pellet stove. "Whats that?" "Ha the pellets look like rabbit food"  Yup sure does but its not. I cant wait to see all the used pellet stoves on the market in the next couple years, from people that just have no idea how much work they are to keep them working. Soooo glad I burn wood!!


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## BadDad320 (Jul 23, 2008)

In regards to the "reasonable deposit"............   My stove shop asked for 50% of the total job up front.  Included were the stove, hardware & labor.   A week or 2 later the stove was in.   The remaining ballance was due at completion.   I had no problem with their terms.


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## hearthtools (Jul 23, 2008)

we take a min of 1/3 down. Stove to be paid in full before it leaves the shop.
Labor and material to be paid right after install.


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## dsnedegar3 (Jul 23, 2008)

I had one Harman dealer request for 50% in June with delivery after December (probably March now).  That's a long time.  I had another Harman/Quadrafire ask for $300.   Asking for 50% is one thing when you expect delivery within a few months, but when you're talking 9 months --that's another issue.


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## webbie (Jul 23, 2008)

Well, if you think that is bad, some DEALERS had to pay Harman and some other makers 100% up front.......

It's fodder for another thread, but mom and pop stove dealers are NOT Lowes, Home Depot or another chain store where you can expect them to say "yes, yes, yes" to everything. The big boxes often have sweet deals with their vendors to be able to return anything, charge back to the makers, etc. etc.

50% down is very typical at this time of year - assuming a stove can be had in 3 months or so. Many of our customers used to pay in full up front just to get it out of the way....but, then again, we were never more than 5 weeks behind (in 20+ years!)

But 50% for 9 months or more or never....personally, unless I was buying a Rolls Royce or nice Airplane, I wouldn't go for that one.


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## STOVEGUY11 (Jul 23, 2008)

Exactly! Dealers have bills too. As does any business. And as a Business there are more bills


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## ducker (Jul 23, 2008)

I put down $1k in June for delivery in Aug of a Harman P38 - which has been confirmed to be installed on the 7th of Aug.


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## MCPO (Jul 23, 2008)

Lowes , Home Depot , True Value , and Ace hardware stores all sell the Englanders at  reasonable prices. No waiting or 1/3 down. 
  My local True Value hardware store has had two sizes available since the spring. They also have pellets.  Neighbor purchased two larger sized model stoves.  They claim they have had no problem getting the stoves from their warehouses.


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## STOVEGUY11 (Jul 23, 2008)

Well it comes down to, you get what you pay for. Not to say the Englander isnt a good stove, but you know what I mean. Some people are not capable of repairing there stoves themselves thats why they buy from a dealer. Home Depot nor your harware store will service their stoves.


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## webbie (Jul 23, 2008)

Giovanni said:
			
		

> Lowes , Home Depot , True Value , and Ace hardware stores all sell the Englanders at  reasonable prices. No waiting or 1/3 down.
> My local True Value hardware store has had two sizes available since the spring. They also have pellets.  Neighbor purchased two larger sized model stoves.  They claim they have had no problem getting the stoves from their warehouses.



Getting off the Harman track here, but these stores usually have stock less than 1/2 the year, can give you no (or dangerous) advice, cannot install, cannot service and usually cannot even deliver (or at least not inside) your house. 

There are plenty of stoves available out there in the marketplace - just not Harman, Quad and selected others. 

Let's try to keep the thread on Harman, Quad and other shortages...


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## begreen (Jul 24, 2008)

Closing thread. That last dialog helps no one. Take a chill pill boys.


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