# Ash pan vs No Ash Pan



## sixman (Apr 30, 2010)

The Lopi Endeavor that I so badly want does not have an ash pan which looks to me like a big downside. However of all the stoves that I have looked at it has the lowest clearance from the back of the stove to the wall specification of 4.5 inches. Most others are 10 and over. Any ideas on a stove with an ash pan and low rear clearance or am I making more of no ash pan then need be made. Seems like it would be alot easier to slide the pan out and dump it than try to shovel it out and put it in a bucket while trying to leave the coals and not make a mess.


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## cmonSTART (Apr 30, 2010)

Honestly I've never used my ash pan.  I just shovel into a bucket.


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## fossil (Apr 30, 2010)

I burn in two stoves.  Lopi Liberty - no ash pan.  CFM shop stove - ash drawer in pedestal.  I never use the ash drawer in the CFM stove...more hassle than it's worth.  Both stoves, I just shovel ash out the door and into a covered pail as needed...usually only about once a week, if that.  Rick

ETA:  The Endeavor's a _very_ nice stove...I have two relatives here in Bend who both recently replaced old woodburners with new Lopi Endeavors, and they're pleased as punch.


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## laynes69 (Apr 30, 2010)

I have a ash pan on my new woodfurnace, but its more of a pain to use it. I usually shovel a little ash each morning. I miss the shaker grates of the old furnace, but not the burn times. It took a little while to get used to, but its not bad now.


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## sixman (Apr 30, 2010)

Thanks for the input Fossil, you always seem to pop up just when I need advice. While I waiting for input I came across the Hearthstone Heritage stove. Seems to have really good clearances that would work for me, just not sure if the soapstone models are all they are cracked up to be. It makes total sense that they would give a more consistant heat across the burn time but there has to be a downside to it that they do not let you in on. Any thoughts on Soapstone stoves?


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## oldspark (Apr 30, 2010)

The ash pan on my PE Summit was standard and I have not used it yet, been digging ashes out of a wood stove with an ash shovel for ever and its not that big a deal.


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## fossil (Apr 30, 2010)

sixman said:
			
		

> Thanks for the input Fossil, you always seem to pop up just when I need advice. While I waiting for input I came across the Hearthstone Heritage stove. Seems to have really good clearances that would work for me, just not sure if the soapstone models are all they are cracked up to be. It makes total sense that they would give a more consistant heat across the burn time but there has to be a downside to it that they do not let you in on. Any thoughts on Soapstone stoves?



Never had a soapstone stove, so no personal experience with them.  Lots of forum members have them, and from what I've read & learned here, most all are very happy with them.  I'm not so sure the "softer heat +" or the "longer time to heat up -" arguments are really significant, but I can't really say.  I, personally, think it comes down ultimately to styling.  The soapstone stoves are distinctive looking and some folks just really like that look.  I like plain old butt-ugly no-nonsense steel plate stoves...and so does my wife, and they pretty much fit our decor.  If we had different taste in furnishings & such, we might have a really pretty soapstone stove in our great room instead of the Liberty.  Rick


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## Ratherbfishin (Apr 30, 2010)

My Quad 5700 has an ash pan but I find it is easier to just shovel the ash out...I don't think I will ever use the ash pan...waist of money in my opinion.


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## BrotherBart (Apr 30, 2010)

On the eighth day God created steels stoves. He just let Bob Fisher think it was his idea.  :coolsmirk: 

My old stove had an ash pan and my current stoves have ash pans. I used each one. Once.


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## grommal (Apr 30, 2010)

Well, in the face of all this opposition, I'll cast one enthusiastic vote for well-designed ash pans.  They are fantastic.  But, you need to have one that is indeed designed well, and then you need to use it correctly, to reap the benefits.

In my old VC, the ash pan was great.  (It was one of the few well-designed things about the stove, but that's another story.)  It held a week's worth of ashes and allowed spill-free, dust-free, mess-free removal of the ashes.

My new Jotul Oslo also has a great ash pan.  It also holds a week's worth of ashes and provides mess-free ash removal.  Once per day at most (not once per load), I rake the ashes just a tiny bit if needed.  This lets a portion of the fine, fully-burned ash to fall into the pan, and leaves the floor of the firebox with a nice layer of coals and insulating ash.  They key is to resist raking too much.  You want the firebox floor to have a layer of ashes.  Running the stove this way allows me to just toss a whole load of wood onto the coals and ash, and away it goes in a couple of minutes.

These ash pans work well because they are large, easy to remove and replace, and easy to carry.  They work well because the grate in the firebox floor is designed properly, with the right amount of slots of the right size, so that the ash doesn't drop through too easily, but drops when you rake it just a bit.  This is very different from the ash pans in the pedestal of stoves where you need to rake the ashes around and through a little trap door.  Those pans may reduce the shoveling, but they don't also virtually self-empty the ashes from the firebox into the pan like the pan and grate in the Oslo.  The Oslo is as close to an automatic ash management system as I think you could get, as often it's multiple days between any raking at all, and a week between emptying, even when burning 24/7.

You can empty the ash pan whenever you want.  You don't have to wait for the stove to burn down like you do if you shovel the ashes.  You can do it entirely at your convenience, not the stove's convenience. 

I can't see how raking the ashes all around to separate them from the coals, and then shoveling the ashes into a bucket or other receptacle, can possibly be as easy or as mess- and dust-free.  Personally, I wouldn't consider a stove without one.


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## BrowningBAR (Apr 30, 2010)

sixman said:
			
		

> Thanks for the input Fossil, you always seem to pop up just when I need advice. While I waiting for input I came across the Hearthstone Heritage stove. Seems to have really good clearances that would work for me, just not sure if the soapstone models are all they are cracked up to be. It makes total sense that they would give a more consistant heat across the burn time but there has to be a downside to it that they do not let you in on. Any thoughts on Soapstone stoves?




*Downside of soapstone stoves:*
They take longer to warm up and throw heat
The Hearthstone model line claims anything over 600 degrees can damage/crack the soapstone.

I have three stoves: Old Pre-EPA cast iron stove (no ash pan), catalytic cast iron stove (with ash pan), Non-catalytic soapstone stove (with ash pan)

My opinion on ash pans: pain in the @ss. I can remove ash quicker from the stove that doesn't have an ash pan.


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## begreen (Apr 30, 2010)

Ash pans can be way over-rated. Don't let affect your purchasing decision.

As for the soapstone downsides, the Alderleas have a similar characteristic. Only I think it's a +++. Even though it's 50 outside, I know it will be getting cooler overnight. So I start a quick fire and it is building heat, slowly in the stove. No one is rushing to open windows and in the morning, with just 3 splits, there will be a warm house.


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## fbelec (Apr 30, 2010)

reading thru the posts tells me, it all depends on the stove you have. i have a old defiant with no ash pan, and a old hearthstone with a ash pan. cleaning the defiant takes a few minutes. fine ash layers the top of the stove and surrounding area after a cleaning. no matter how careful i am. the hearthstone with the ash pan, pull it out, dump slowly in a ash bucket and return to stove. quick, easy and no dust. just can't hold a weeks worth of ashes. otherwise i like it.


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## rottiman (Apr 30, 2010)

2 Regency R-3's, 2 ash pans, .....never use either one.  Pedestal ash drops are a P.I.A


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## savageactor7 (Apr 30, 2010)

After 30yrs burning with an ash pan I didn't think we could live without one. I can honestly say things are easier now. In the morning when the stove is cool we remove a couple 3/4 shovels of ash from the front of the stove...pull the hot coals froward, load and that's that.

The bonus is that we're not juggling a warm ash tray threw the house to dump outside in a barrel before we're fully awake.


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## John_M (Apr 30, 2010)

My stove has an ash pan. I looked inside the pan once when I installed the stove and havn't done so since. Shoveling the ashes out of the stove and SLIDING them off the shovel into a covered ash bucket works best for me. Whether or not the stove had an ash pan was not part of my decision to purchase the Spectrum. John_M


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## Backwoods Savage (Apr 30, 2010)

fossil said:
			
		

> sixman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




On the ash pan, we've had them for many years and also the old grate stoves. The Fireview was our first stove w/o an ash pan or grates and we weren't sure we'd like it. It proved to be a non-issue for sure. It is easy to empty ashes and the fire does well sitting atop the ashes. 

On the soapstone, fossil has not had them and we have our first and have used it now for 3 winters as our only source of heat. Comparing with our last stove, we now use only half the amount of wood we used to and stay a lot warmer too! Fossil is not so sure on the soft heat and longer heat up time and there has been much debate on this. 

My thoughts were that the soft heat story was pure baloney. When we got the stove and started using it, that baloney turned into sirloin steak! There is a difference. On the longer heat up time, this is true but only a little bit. If you read the bull some folks post you'd think it would take hours to get heat from these rocks. It is pure bull too. Does it take longer? Yes, but only a little bit. If you want instant heat, use an oil or gas furnace. If 10 minutes means that much to you, then stay away from soapstone. 

One more point is on the Hearthstone, we almost bought one but after reading about them and talking to several folks, we are happy we did not buy one. The big Mansfield seems to be the one most folks are happy with. What concerned me the most was the 600 degree maximum. There is a big difference between 600 and 700 degrees on the feel of heat and when you consider that the stove will be operated at less than the maximum that does not feel like much. I know with our stove we can tell a big difference and 500 degrees is not much in the cold of winter. I like being able to run the stove well over 600 for quite some time and in the cold of winter when the stove top gets below 550 we are then opening the draft to get that burned down so we can reload the stove.

On the down sides of soapstone, the soapstone can scratch easy (but can be buffed easy too). One has to be careful when cooking on top of the stove and/or with water. A blast of cold water on hot stove could prove interesting to say the least. Another down side is the weight factor. Ours weighs 485 pounds before any wood goes in. However, that has proved to be not a big factor at all. One more might be that the soapstone can soak up some moisture through the summer so should be heated slowly on the first burn in the fall. Hearthstone recommends (at least they used to and I'm not sure if they still do or not) doing a burn-in the same as when the stove was new. Woodstock says it is a non-issue; you don't have to be concerned.


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## Highbeam (Apr 30, 2010)

Love the soapstone, hate the ash pan. Ash pans are marketing hype and actually are a negative on a stove as they allow another place for leaks. 

A properly sized stone stove at it's max temp of 600 or 700 will heat just as well as a properly sized steel stove at its max temp. You just need to buy the right size of stove. Buying a stove based on max temp is like choosing a truck engine based on redline RPM, it just isn't important if your engine is big enough.

The heritage has excellent rear clearance requirements. 7" to a combustible wall is hard to beat.


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## Slow1 (Apr 30, 2010)

As to ash pans -  My experience is that my first stove (VC Encore NC) had what I thought of as a well designed ash pan.  I could swing the door open, slide a lid on the pan to lift it out and carry it outside to empty into the ash bucket.  Only thing I'd have designed differently would have been to put some sort of handle on the bottom of the pan to allow easier handling while emptying the hot ashes outside (the handle is on the lid... hot pan of ashes in what is essentially a tray with gloves can be tricky to dump).  Anyway - I liked that and was a bit concerned about moving to a stove without that nice feature.

Anyway - enter the Fireview without an ash pan.  Folks said "don't worry, you won't miss it".  Well - they are right.  I've found that it really is a non-issue.  I used to empty the ash pan 2x a week with the VC, now I shovel ashes at most once a week.  It really is no big deal.  Since the stove runs best with some ashes left in the stove there isn't any point in totally cleaning out the stove either.  So, during a reload if I have a couple extra minutes I may just pull the bucket over and shovel 2 or 3 scoops of ashes out and I'm done.  It really takes less time to do this than it did with the old stove - no concerns about anything falling through the grate while the pan is out and/or the pan gasket not being well sealed either.  I guess I've gone over to the "simpler is better" on this issue.

So my conclusion on this whole issue is that if you don't have an ash pan you really aren't likely to miss it.  If you have a really well designed one it can be a nice feature to have.  I would never advise someone to choose their stove based on an ash pan being there or not.


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## fire_man (Apr 30, 2010)

A big disadvantage to the the ash pan door is that if it's not properly sealed, you can severely overfire. To me, it's just one more variable I don't want to deal with - fiddling with the door to make sure it shuts tightly and making sure one more gasket is in good shape.  I believe in KISS , rather than PITA.


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## begreen (Apr 30, 2010)

Very good point fire_man. Had that happen on the Castine which had a pretty nice ash pan system. But over time, ash would build up behind the ash pan. This ash would get compacted behind the ash pan when the door was closed. Eventually it accumulated enough to prevent the ash pan door from closing tightly. After that I just let the ash pan fill up and let the ash to continue to build up at the bottom of the firebox. The stove seemed to burn better with the bed of ash underneath the coals and it was less frequent ash dumps for me. 

The ash dump on the T6 is so useless that ignoring it is a no-brainer. PE should make it an option on all of their stoves or dramatically improve the design.


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## grommal (Apr 30, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Very good point fire_man. Had that happen on the Castine which had a pretty nice ash pan system. But over time, ash would build up behind the ash pan. This ash would get compacted behind the ash pan when the door was closed. Eventually it accumulated enough to prevent the ash pan door from closing tightly. After that I just let the ash pan fill up and let the ash to continue to build up at the bottom of the firebox. The stove seemed to burn better with the bed of ash underneath the coals and it was less frequent ash dumps for me.
> 
> The ash dump on the T6 is so useless that ignoring it is a no-brainer. PE should make it an option on all of their stoves or dramatically improve the design.


This happens when you let the ash pan get too full before emptying it.  Then when you slide it out, the top edge of the opening scrapes the excess ash off into the housing.  If you don't let it get overfull, this does not happen, and the tiny amount that drops through the grate while the pan is not in place is not enough to build up and cause problems in a single year of use.  It is a good idea, though, to clean out those ashes as part of the spring shutdown.

Just finished 24 years of burning, all with an ash pan.  I have yet to have an air leak at the ash pan door.  I'm not suggesting that they don't happen, but a stove is no more prone to leak there than any other door that is opened only weekly (in other words, approximately 21 times less often than the door where you load the wood).


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## begreen (May 1, 2010)

Guilty as charged. I finally decided I was dumping it too frequently and just let it fill up completely.


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## fbelec (May 1, 2010)

Just finished 24 years of burning, all with an ash pan. I have yet to have an air leak at the ash pan door. I'm not suggesting that they don't happen, but a stove is no more prone to leak there than any other door that is opened only weekly (in other words, approximately 21 times less often than the door where you load the wood).[/quote]

that say's it all.
one other thing i'd like to know. what is it about the ash pan that everyone that say's they have it, but that is not worth it? is it just a poor design of the stove that you have. my ash pan on my hearthstone is like a scoop. if there is to much ashes in the stove for the ash pan to handle or some falls down in the time that you pull it out to the time that you replace it, it scoops it up for the next time. the only draw back to mine is it is to small and has to be dumped often. i still use it because it is very fast to use. pull it out, dump it into the mini barrel and put it back in. so not ever having a stove but this one with a ash pan i can't see the drawback of using it. hopefully some can explain so that i can understand.

thanks
frank


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## grommal (May 1, 2010)

fbelec said:
			
		

> Just finished 24 years of burning, all with an ash pan. I have yet to have an air leak at the ash pan door. I'm not suggesting that they don't happen, but a stove is no more prone to leak there than any other door that is opened only weekly (in other words, approximately 21 times less often than the door where you load the wood).



that say's it all.
one other thing i'd like to know. what is it about the ash pan that everyone that say's they have it, but that is not worth it? is it just a poor design of the stove that you have. my ash pan on my hearthstone is like a scoop. if there is to much ashes in the stove for the ash pan to handle or some falls down in the time that you pull it out to the time that you replace it, it scoops it up for the next time. the only draw back to mine is it is to small and has to be dumped often. i still use it because it is very fast to use. pull it out, dump it into the mini barrel and put it back in. so not ever having a stove but this one with a ash pan i can't see the drawback of using it. hopefully some can explain so that i can understand.

thanks
frank[/quote]I had looked at Hearthstone stove when shopping last year.  I did like the way the ash pan scooped up ashes that had fallen into the pan enclosure.  Clever!  I did not like the size of the ash pan, but as long as you don't mind handling ashes every couple of days, that's fine.  On some Hearthstone models, though I don't remember which, the ash pan itself had to seal a gasket just by pushing the pan into its seat, rather than having a more robust door take on the sealing responsibilities.  Maybe this works great and is not prone to air leaks, but I was a little skeptical of this particular aspect of the design.

As you can tell from my posts, I also can't see the net drawback to using a well-designed ash pan.  Much of this is personal preference, but I'd bet that some of the folks who say they don't like them (and have good ash pan designs) have never truly tried using them properly, or perhaps got a bad taste in their mouths from a previous poorly-designed ash pan.  That's fine, too.  However you like to remove your ashes is up to you.  Just don't try to tell me that all ash pans are junk and anybody who uses one doesn't know what they're talking about and has just fallen prey to marketing hype.


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## oldspark (May 1, 2010)

I guess the reason peoply call them junk and hype might be do to the fact it is so easy to take the ashes out with a shovel. Just saying!


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## begreen (May 1, 2010)

Lest this thread get off track, I should be clearer that all ash systems are not created equal. There are decent ash systems out there. The better ash systems seem to be on stoves that that come from a foundry where  the ash grate is cast and integral to the base of the stove. With a steel stove or one that has a firebrick base in the firebox, this is often not the case.  Some of these stoves have systems that appear to be engineered by someone that never ran a stove 24/7. I think these are the systems that get the negative reports. The rest of the stove can be excellent, but the ash system appears to be tacked on like a marketing afterthought. 

Having worked with both, I find a system that I can go a couple weeks between ash cleanout works the best for me. That's mostly because I don't feel like dumping ashes after a day of work and long commute home. It's not going to get dealt with until the weekend. For the OP, looking for a steel stove, I would not place the ash pan as a priority option.


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## Mad Tom (May 2, 2010)

I have shoveled ash on my old stove. My new Jotul has a pan.  Its alright but I wish it were about 5 inches deeper. if it overfills you drag it out and the top gets raked out into the opening. Messy pain in the butt. Better off shoveling.


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## REF1 (May 2, 2010)

Of all the things I hated about my Homestead the ash pan was a decent positive. Could be messy, but that was my fault for putting too much into it. I just ordered an Ashtrapper which should be here in a couple days and it seems a very good compromise between an ash drawer and shoveling into a bucket. It'll work well in this firebox of the Elm. But it should work well in just about any firebox. To me a lid is the key. Stoves which have a well designed ash drawer with a lid are a good thing. Not many do and it's just as easy to watch ashes spill over the edge of a drawer as off your shovel. This Astrapper seems the ticket. Scoop them up, close the lid, done.


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## firefighterjake (May 3, 2010)

I pretty much share Grommal's feelings on ash pans . . . but then again I have always had a stove with good ash pans and the Jotul Oslo is no different. Very few coals . . . lots of fine ash. Dumped once to twice a week in middle of the winter when burning 24/7 . . . much easier, cleaner and faster for me than scooping out with a shovel (which I also tried) . . . 1) open ash pan door, 2) remove ash pan and take outside (after closing ash pan door), 3) dump and replace. No muss, no fuss.

For me this is a good feature in my stove . . . but others have had ash pans that were not designed well . . . still others have never had an ash pan. My own take is that for me having an ash pan isn't one of those must-have features, but if you're going to have one it's nice to have one that works well.


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## yanksforever (May 3, 2010)

Love the Soapstone and I think most of the people that say they don't like them have never owned one. Plus they cost
more and we know how "tight" some people can be.
Beautiful even heat that doesn't drive you right out of the room. Plus they are not "stone" cold in the morning like some 
of the steel stoves. And yes...they are beautiful. Better than a big black steel box sitting in the middle of the room. Just voicing my opinion
like the steel stove people do.   
As for the ash drawer...never use it...waste of time and energy!


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## billb3 (May 4, 2010)

I had a firelight and the ash pan could be messy if I didn't keep up with it.
I was so used to a shovel that the first couple times I let it overfill and the fire down low enough and made such a mess I just went back to a shovel.
Creature of habit I guess. 
The airwash worked a little better if you kept up with the ashpan.
It didn't help with the mess you got if you opened the front doors.


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## carlo (May 5, 2010)

Only used my ash pan a couple of times. Much easier to scoop out the ashes into a bucket. One thing the ash pan gives me though is extra insulation so my hearth flooring doesn't get as hot.


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