# Woz (Steve Wozniak) goes Green with housing plans, etc.



## webbie (Aug 16, 2007)

The inventor of the Apple Computer (and much more) is interviewed in this interesting article

He is thinking deeply about energy use...


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## myzamboni (Aug 16, 2007)

Woz plays Segway Polo at a park near my house (he own's a half dozen of them).  It's kind of fun to watch. 

His current house in the hills is huge and way more house that his family needs.


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## KeithO (Aug 24, 2007)

Wealthy businessmen are constantly trying to think of ways of trying to convince ordinary folk that "x" (insert favorite widget, car, house,toy etc) could be so much better and healthier if one could just scrape together about 25% more than what the market value is today.  Take a look at the cost of the "bungalows" they are referring to and then examine what is actually included and what you have to provide additionally.  Compare that to the offers on this web site http://www.valubuild.com/cost.asp#results  $32k for 1232sq ft, just add windows and doors.  Insulation equivalent to R38.

Like the argument that we should install solar panels even though the resultant electricity will cost 10x more "because it is the right thing to do".  BS, the panels are constantly being adjusted in price to be "whatever the market will bear".  They are actually more expensive now than they were a few years ago.   I'm not against solar panels, don't get me wrong, but pricing on this stuff is not fair and I don't think it reflects accurately what goes into making it.  If I can find the right site, I may actually do this with my own "hydroelectric" storage battery (I'm sure I can build a system with 10k gal storage for the same amount as the expensive batteries cost and a LOT more efficient)

Like we should pay more to heat with corn or pellets than natural gas "because it is the right thing to do".  Again, BS.  All that is happening is that prices are being adjusted upward to match the fossil fuels to squeeze the last nickle out of the consumer.  Greed, is what this is called.  In fact, those controlling the corn futures market are more than likely the oil barons in the first place.  Note that the diesel price has been stable all year, barely moving (unlike gas), yet everyone will claim that it was the price of diesel that is responsible for the increase in pellet prices and transport costs.   I recently moved 3 tons of machinery 600 miles with a gas pickup and dual axle trailer ($3.30/gal on I80) and it cost me $140 in gas.  The same trip would have cost me less than $100 with a diesel pickup.

I find the claims for the "miracle wood" very hard to believe.  The mumbo jumbo regarding ice and water.  Often Ice will melt slowly because the exposed surface area of the ice cube doesn't allow for a rapid heat transfer to the water around it.  Basically, a big block of ice in an infinite amount of water will melt at a more rapid rate due to the larger surface area and this rate will progressively slow as it gets smaller and smaller.

My impression with the housing market in the US is that consumers will simply accept anything.  Few seem to care about details regarding insulation in general, almost none ask to have the basement walls insulated outside which would add probably only $5k to the cost of the home.  Few seem to realize that the basic shell of the home has only about $60k in materials and don't bother to do the math to understand how that then gets pumped up to $250k in final price.  Many developers have been gouging home buyers so bad that it almost feels good that the housing market is so slack right now (except for the fact that I too have a devalued home).  There must be about 5% of homes in the area I live in that have stood empty since being built, have never been lived in and have never sold in nearly 4 years.  You must have deep pockets to be able to afford doing something like that..

Keith


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## kevinmoelk (Sep 1, 2007)

I know I'm a little late to the dance but...

KeithO, maybe I'm reading you wrong, but you seem really irritated.  Of course people are ignorant when it comes to well... just about anything in life.  Bread and Circus, spoon-feeding, brainwashing, which ever term you choose to use can be applied to the general population.  Frankly I think Woz has thought about the economics, embodied energy and final outcome of efficiency.  He clearly stated that he wasn't trying to tell folks what is right or wrong, only to serve as an example of another manner in which to construct a home.  I applaud him for even getting involved.  A guy like Woz has enough money to just write a check and forgettaboutit.  Although I disagree with many of the things he stated in the article, he does bring attention to the green construction movement.  

Economics dictate that goods be bought and sold at whatever the market will bear.  This is true for any free market system.  Convincing someone that it is "the right thing to do" is only marketing and those types of claims will only be effective in courting clients who are already morally aligned with the product... solar energy in your example.  I agree that the retail costs may be out of whack, but then so be it if there are folks who are willing to pay that price.  The fact that solar energy could be produced at a lower cost and provided a lower retail cost to the consumer is an OPPORTUNITY  Someone will fill that hole and start selling solar panels of the same quality at a far lower price.  Competitors will have to lower their price to hold market share or risk loosing business.  Economics are beautiful.

"The right thing to do" I feel is important however, not a bunch of BS.  We as a society are far too driven by money.  I believe it IS important to serve as a positive example to others and to future generations.  The example should not be that Dad bought a solar panel and wasted his money, but that Dad invested and promoted a technology that has promise.  Cost analysis should not always be the bottom line.  We do need to think about future generations, future technologies, etc.  

The best example out of my own life is organic food from the farmers market.  I buy lots of it.  Could I get my vegetables cheaper at the grocery store?  Sure.  So why do I buy organics?  Because I think they taste better, are better for the environment, and I like helping my friends and neighbors rather than monsanto.  Could I grow my own organic veggies and save tons of money?  Yes, I could, and want to, but until then I will continue to buy them at a premium because "it is the right thing to do".

I agree with you that the miracle wood seems far fetched.  Not to mention there are far better ways to construct a house and not use wood, or greatly minimize the amount of wood used.  I also agree with the housing market statement you made, though you have to of course factor labor and land value, not only the structure itself.  That said, the profit margins on homes are huge and all the reason why huge suburban tracts are still being constructed all over the US.

My biggest disappointment was the fact that Woz did little to recognize natural building... thinking deeply about material choices and energy apparently did not cross over into using sustainable and healthy materials.

-Kevin


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## KeithO (Sep 1, 2007)

Kevin, I think you summed it up right.  Irritation is the key factor.   I am particularly sensitive to "celebrities" who think its ultra cool spending a fortune on their "green power" and pose as "models" for how it should be done.  It is yet another elitist brigade, in my books right next to the playboys who throw lavish parties full of scantily clad women and the yuppies with their porche's.  Ideally, the ultra expensive "green power" instalation is in an exclusive neighborhood where homes cost upwards of $500k to several million and the monthly association fees are bigger than my mortgage.  This is not a model that is going to get the attention of the regular Joe, its about bragging rights more than anything else.  Then, while being so green, they jet about in their Leers burning hundreds of lbs of Jet A an hour and when not in the Leer, they are in the "commuter" Bell Jetranger avoiding the traffic jams in the cities that they so love.  Ann Arbor is full of Elitist "greens" in their plush neighborhoods with the big SUV's parked in the driveways.

As long as the price of solar panels can be kept high, why should manufacturers try to get into a rat race low margin production scenario ?  It makes business sense, but not ecological / environmental sense and ultimately will result in the technology reaching broad adoption pehaps 50-100 years later than would originally have been possible.  Why do all (most) of the panels need to come from Japan ?  What is the reason behind not manufacturing them in the USA ?  If there were to be a hiccup in the world energy market tomorrow, the worldwide supply would dry up instantly and we in the US would have nowhere to turn for supplies.

The ultimate cost to business when cheap oil runs out will be much greater than if renewable energy were turned into a "commodity" now with less profits in the next few years, but a vast reduction in dependency on foreign oil, a reduction in defense spending, which could in turn fund targeted R&D;and "commercialization" projects for renewable energy.  There is a great opportunity for alternative energy that will be wasted if greed takes over and the alternative fuels mirror price trends of conventional fossil fuels.

The politicians are simply being directed by the "established" energy lobby and are not giving alternative enrgy any significant breaks other than a few pieces of "token" legislation.  Taxpayers should get a break for investing in technology that reduces consumption (insulation, efficient appliances and lighting, PV generation, wind power etc).  Most of the current breaks are pretty small compared to the investments required.  There should also be a focus on total energy consumption.  There should be no need to plan ones home etc so badly that one needs to use $400-$2000 worth of energy/month for heating or cooling in the first place.  This is about treading lightly on the earth and the size of the footprint that one leaves behind.


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## kevinmoelk (Sep 1, 2007)

KeithO said:
			
		

> Kevin, I think you summed it up right.  Irritation is the key factor.   I am particularly sensitive to "celebrities" who think its ultra cool spending a fortune on their "green power" and pose as "models" for how it should be done.  It is yet another elitist brigade, in my books right next to the playboys who throw lavish parties full of scantily clad women and the yuppies with their porche's.  Ideally, the ultra expensive "green power" instalation is in an exclusive neighborhood where homes cost upwards of $500k to several million and the monthly association fees are bigger than my mortgage.  This is not a model that is going to get the attention of the regular Joe, its about bragging rights more than anything else.  Then, while being so green, they jet about in their Leers burning hundreds of lbs of Jet A an hour and when not in the Leer, they are in the "commuter" Bell Jetranger avoiding the traffic jams in the cities that they so love.  Ann Arbor is full of Elitist "greens" in their plush neighborhoods with the big SUV's parked in the driveways.



Hypocracy will always be a factor, but like it or not celebrity can bring attention to worthy causes.  Woz can influence a lot more people than I can when getting the gears turning in peoples minds about energy comsumption, green construction, or whatever widget or thing he is "into" at the moment.  Are Woz and others perhaps stealing someones thunder?  Sure, I'm certain of it.  There have been folks involved in green building LONG before the suject captured his attention.  But at the end of the day the most important thing is getting the message out there.  And yes, people driving 1-ton duallys to get groceries is ridiculous... those folks are helpless and are merely following fashion trends.



			
				KeithO said:
			
		

> As long as the price of solar panels can be kept high, why should manufacturers try to get into a rat race low margin production scenario ?  It makes business sense, but not ecological / environmental sense and ultimately will result in the technology reaching broad adoption pehaps 50-100 years later than would originally have been possible.  Why do all (most) of the panels need to come from Japan ?  What is the reason behind not manufacturing them in the USA ?  If there were to be a hiccup in the world energy market tomorrow, the worldwide supply would dry up instantly and we in the US would have nowhere to turn for supplies.



The same reason business gets into anything... money.  If there were people willing to buy solar panels at Home Cheapo you can bet they'd sell them.  Adoption of such technology will have more to do with lack of conventional energy sources and government intervention/incentives than any other factor.  I'm not exactly sure why all solar panels come from Japan, so no comment there.



			
				KeithO said:
			
		

> The ultimate cost to business when cheap oil runs out will be much greater than if renewable energy were turned into a "commodity" now with less profits in the next few years, but a vast reduction in dependency on foreign oil, a reduction in defense spending, which could in turn fund targeted R&D;and "commercialization" projects for renewable energy.  There is a great opportunity for alternative energy that will be wasted if greed takes over and the alternative fuels mirror price trends of conventional fossil fuels.



I agree there are great opportunites.  The largest problem I see, and this extends into other things beyond energy... is the government.  Not that I think the government should tell us what to do, but they could take action to level out the playing field a little bit so as to provide greater opportunities for alternatives.  I'm still waiting for the day when they put a Mobil sign on the outside of the whitehouse.



> The politicians are simply being directed by the "established" energy lobby and are not giving alternative enrgy any significant breaks other than a few pieces of "token" legislation.  Taxpayers should get a break for investing in technology that reduces consumption (insulation, efficient appliances and lighting, PV generation, wind power etc).  Most of the current breaks are pretty small compared to the investments required.  There should also be a focus on total energy consumption.  There should be no need to plan ones home etc so badly that one needs to use $400-$2000 worth of energy/month for heating or cooling in the first place.  This is about treading lightly on the earth and the size of the footprint that one leaves behind.



Taxpayers should get a break period.  And yes, as alluded to above, the government is in the pocket of big business.  Just like church and state needed to be separated at one time, so now too do business and government.  Right now there seem to be no checks and balances.  I could rant on about this particular subject endlessly, but I will refrain.  It's a mess for sure.  Hopefully states will lead the way as they are with pollution standards.  I'd like to push the limits of technology to do what is right for the people and the environment.  We should all be driving vehicles that are far more efficient, and living/working in modern energy efficient buildings.  The bar definitely needs to be set higher.  We can do better.

-Kevin


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## webbie (Sep 1, 2007)

I don't buy that a celebrity of Woz stature is even comparable to Hugh Hefners silicone parties. Playboy DID change the world, but that was in the 50's and 60's and since then, IMHO, it has went downhill....

Woz is a DEEP thinker, an engineer who has already changed the world by being one of the primary "inventors" of personal computing. When other engineers see his work, they are floored...because he has done the same thing that needs to be done with energy....simplified things and made them cost vastly less. His original designs were for things like disk drive controllers...that used 5 chips instead of 40....to get more from less.

He has spent much of his life helping children on a one-to-one basis with his computer camps and schools. I don't have many "heros", but I have to have respect for a (multi-multi-millionaire) dude who has said "I have enough money - I'll spend the rest of life helping people and raising a family".

BTW, Woz personally gave me $1,000 in one of my efforts to set up a computer lab for disadvantaged kids....we bought our first iMac with it. He answered my emails within 5 minutes! Try that with another celebrity!

Anyway, we need great minds like his to study the energy problem and apply a different logic to it. Another genius from the computer field, Bill Joy (he wrote much of UNIX), is now working as a venture capitalist in Silicon Valley and financing a number of energy-related projects. He and some others are building a 190 foot "super-yacht", which is using a number of technologies from fuel cells to solar, wind and others as a "test platform". Yes, it may seem to be an excess...and probably is, but it is only through R&D;and experimentation that we will get the final result we seek. Example: The first computers filled up entire rooms, dimmed the lights in the neighborhood and had less power than an iPhone.....I'm sure folks thought that was an excess also!

So I say "More Power to Woz" and his friends. Yes, some of the energy equation will be solved through people staying home more, and eating tofu instead of steak...but the field of energy is large enough for millions of players to innovate in a multitude of ways. When we start thinking there is only one "right" direction, we stop innovating.


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## KeithO (Sep 2, 2007)

Craig  

Whatever the man may have done that was technically brilliant, it doesn't apply to the black magic "miracle wood" mentioned in the article.   Nor do the bunglows made of this magic material appear to be value for money.   No degree of fame whatsoever excuses the kind of garbage written in this acticle.  If a readily available species of wood had such special powers, mankind and engineers would have figured it out a long time ago.  I don't see any way whatsoever that ANY kind of wood has the ability to do what is said in the article.  The heat capacity of wood will not permit the absorbtion of the amount of energy required to maintain the temperature differentials quoted. Period.  In fact, even water, which has a terrific heat capacity couldn't do what is expected in this acticle even for cooling, let alone heating.

At some appropriate time, one has to stop the idol worship and figure out whether the laws of science are being violated by the claims.  I have no doubt that some simple calculations will reveal that the magic resin has a heat retention capacity higher than any material known to man, in order to do what is promised.  Some gullible consumer is going to buy this story and spend a fortune on one of these homes and more than likely be sorely disapointed at the end.  California obviously has a mild climate, so the requirements in order to achieve a comfortable home are less stringent than some other parts of the country, but even so I think there are many better options available to buyers than the subject of this article.


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## kevinmoelk (Sep 2, 2007)

KeithO said:
			
		

> Whatever the man may have done that was technically brilliant, it doesn't apply to the black magic "miracle wood" mentioned in the article.   Nor do the bunglows made of this magic material appear to be value for money.   No degree of fame whatsoever excuses the kind of garbage written in this acticle.  *If a readily available species of wood had such special powers, mankind and engineers would have figured it out a long time ago.*  I don't see any way whatsoever that ANY kind of wood has the ability to do what is said in the article.  The heat capacity of wood will not permit the absorbtion of the amount of energy required to maintain the temperature differentials quoted. Period.  In fact, even water, which has a terrific heat capacity couldn't do what is expected in this acticle even for cooling, let alone heating.



KeithO, you're cracking me up over here.  While I applaud Woz for being an advocate for challenging the conventional way houses are built, I'm also certain he is no expert.  Clearly you are intelligent enough to see the forest from the trees, so why not leave it at that?  You will not build a home out of the magic wood, so be it.  Design and efficiency are often overcome by greed.  While there are architects and engineers wanting to push the envelope, they also need to feed their kids... so they give in to corporate politics and draw up another box to be plopped down on a lot with no regard to the land, site orientation, materials or efficiency.  I have to sigh every time someone mentions solar orientation like it's some kind of new concept... it's only been around for several thousand years.

I feel in architecture humankind is rediscovering that perhaps our ancestors were not so stupid afterall.  Solar orientation is one aspect, along with site considerations (let's build around the big tree or boulder), materials (hey maybe the earth can keep us cool and warm), maintainence (maybe I don't need 10 acres in grass or a huge house for only 2 people), etc, etc.  A little common sense goes a long way.  Sometimes humankind had something figured out, but things changed and we simply forgot what we were doing.  

Take for instance... hemp.  And no I'm not a hippie and do not want to smoke pot but I do advocate the use of hemp.  Over the years since the invasion of synthetics and legislation cracking down on all hemp industrial and otherwise... hemp lost market share.  Here's a material that we can make paper with, clothing, rope, etc. that is far superior in many ways.  Hemp is easy to grow, needs no fertilizers or pesticides, is more productive per acre and it enriches the soil it's grown in.  So why then don't we use more of it?  The bottom line is that society doesn't always do things that make sense.

My point is KeithO that while there may not be a magic wood, there may be something to the material.  I'm personally suspicious, but then again I also have to wonder why someone would be researching and developing the super bungalows if it had no promise.  I suggest digging a little deeper... maybe contacting the professor at BYU to learn more about it rather than taking some off hand comment by a computer engineer in an interview. 

-Kevin


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## PAJerry (Sep 2, 2007)

I finally got time to read this thread in full, and you have it right, wrench.  Most of what works well and is practical has been done in the past somewhere. A visit to Greenfield Village in MI is a good place to learn about what worked. They have house examples from most of the ethnic groups that came to early America. Economic standing played quite a role, as well as climate.  A striking example was the contrast in heating between an English house and a Scottish house.  English were more wealthy and had access to more wood so they put fireplaces on outside walls at the ends of the house. The Scots were poorer and had less available wood, so the fireplace was in the center of the house to capture all possible heat from the hearth and chimney. I think that sometimes, to find the best efficiency, you need to take a hard look at the practices of the people living on the edge, barely getting by.  All people are innovators in their own situation.  The wealthy have the means to tinker with things but the poor have to come up with things that work - or perish.


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## webbie (Sep 2, 2007)

KeithO said:
			
		

> Craig
> 
> Whatever the man may have done that was technically brilliant, it doesn't apply to the black magic "miracle wood" mentioned in the article.   Nor do the bunglows made of this magic material appear to be value for money.
> 
> engineers would have figured it out a long time ago.



Keith, it is evident that you have the mind of an engineer!

But your statement "would have figured it out" is precisely why it takes folks who think outside the box - neither jobs nor woz was an engineer when they designed this stuff. Woz is most famous for his disk controller, which I'm certain all the engineers would have said was impossible:
"The  drive was customized for Apple to include 80 tracks (earlier drives had only 70 tracks) and support rotation speeds of 390-600 rpm. This allowed the Mac to store data at a constant linear density under control of the IWM (integrated Woz machine) chip. The drive had 400 possible speeds, and the IWM chose the proper speed by monitoring data read speed and attempting to maintain 489.6 Kbps. If all that sounds complex, remember that the whole thing is controlled by the IWM (ONE CHIP) , while IBM's floppy controller needed 45-50 chips to run a drive with a single rotation rate. Apple's elegant solution was simpler and more reliable - and definitely a sign of a company that thinks different."

If you asked IBM's top engineers at the time whether their 50 chips could be replaced by one, what would they have said?

Woz may be starting from scratch on the energy deal, and he may never get anywhere......but I'll bet the combination of guys like him (Joy, etc.) and large amount of capital with come up with great things. Wait and watch.


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## KeithO (Sep 2, 2007)

Craig

We are not lacking on the science front.  We have had everything needed to build efficient housing for more than 30 years.   If you read solar power handbooks that date back to the original oil crisis (The passive Solar Energy book by Edward Mazria ISBN 0-87857-238-4 copyrighted in 1979) you will find that all the questions are answered, multiple strategies are presented because the author understood that different people have different tastes.

The only thinking out the box required is to get out of the "gigantic house syndrome".  As long as consumers feel that a house must be at least 2000sq ft with a full basement and triple garage and has to contain less than $70k of materials, the only way this need will be met is with what I refer to as "cardboard houses" by which I'm referring to "cheap" 2x4 construction.  It doesn't mean the house is cheap, but the building sure is (the expenses to the contractor).

Until the time comes that consumers raise their expectations and accept "smaller = better" there will be no shift in the general building trends.

Someone also mentioned home placement and orietation.  That is indeed yet another taboo that society is going to have to deal with.  Right now I am barely able to recall a single house that was placed anything other than facing the roadway.  If the lot happens to be on the north side of a road that runs east/west, you may be in luck (unless the garage blocks 90% of the solar exposure).  Any other type of scenario amlost certainly has the home oriented completely wrong to make any use of the sun whatsoever.  How about theose homes with the west facing facades ?  I would not like to have their summer air conditioning bills.

In "poor" countries where people have never been able to afford fossil fuels for heating or electricity for air conditioning, the correct home site and orietation has always been of primary importance.  Once again, this has nothing to do with us lacking any science, its just been a side effect of the might of the $, cheap oil and gas and dare I say it, arrogance.


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## KeithO (Sep 5, 2007)

Kevin: If you take a look at this website http://www2.aud.ucla.edu/heed/ there is a piece of software that is downloadable that allows you to build your house, fit doors and windows, choose the construction materials and place them, and finally, download environmental data for your location and run all the simulations you want.  The FAQ is at http://www2.aud.ucla.edu/heed/heed-faq.html

If one looks at the general trends, lowest energy use and flattest temperature profiles require the highest thermal mass and best external insulation.  This is easy to evaluate with the HEED software just by changing the thickness of the thermal mass walls. Many locations besides Colorado and New Mexico have a sufficient number of overcast days to test the insulation of a home fully.

One of the least expensive ways to achieve high thermal mass walls is by dry stacking concrete blocks, face bonding them with a fiber reinforced concrete and then filling the cavities with concrete and rebar.  This link http://www.thenaturalhome.com/drystackblock.htm shows details of how to do it.  This is a much easier process that regular "mortared" masonry and it is MUCH stronger.

The authors of the above site have years of experience with passive solar and offer consulting.


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## wg_bent (Sep 5, 2007)

PAJerry said:
			
		

> I finally got time to read this thread in full, and you have it right, wrench.  Most of what works well and is practical has been done in the past somewhere. A visit to Greenfield Village in MI is a good place to learn about what worked. They have house examples from most of the ethnic groups that came to early America. Economic standing played quite a role, as well as climate.  A striking example was the contrast in heating between an English house and a Scottish house.  English were more wealthy and had access to more wood so they put fireplaces on outside walls at the ends of the house. The Scots were poorer and had less available wood, so the fireplace was in the center of the house to capture all possible heat from the hearth and chimney. I think that sometimes, to find the best efficiency, you need to take a hard look at the practices of the people living on the edge, barely getting by.  All people are innovators in their own situation.  The wealthy have the means to tinker with things but the poor have to come up with things that work - or perish.



I have to disagree with you.  I see many people here in the USA who are poorer... inner city areas or country. People there frequently live in older inefficient homes with doors and windows that have poor seals.  

It comes down to having the up front funding to fix the problems.  Lower income people don't have the upfront money. 

Even in my own situation, I'd love to take all the siding off my house slap on a bunch of R10 foam all over it, and reside it with some nice stone facing.  I'd love to add solar panels to my roof for PV, and some for hot water.  I'd also love to replace all my windows to make the house more efficient.  All that would add up to about 100K.   I don't have that, so I go along with the status quo.  

The wealthy such as Ed Bagley and Woz have the means to be as green as they want to be.   It's nice that they are role models, but few can achieve what they can.  They get to own a Prius, a segway, have a pile of solar panels, a windmill, an electric pickup truck, add solatubes at will, and toss in a hot water recovery system when they feel like it.  

99.9% of the people in this country will need better and cheaper access to all the technology that allows us to be more green.  Even a diesel version of the new Jeeps is like a 4k option.  At that price, it makes no economic sense since the ROI is like 11 years.  Being green can't just make sense... it has to make economic sense at the micro level.  It has to have a low price point of entry and be mandated.

Government standards for new homes must dictate something like R29 walls.  It has to be easy for builders to do the change.  So taking existing R19 walls with 2x6 construction and adding 2" of foam board is easy and it makes sense.  Working to make that change standard will also lower the cost of the materials since they will be produced on a larger scale. 

Finally, younger folks need to think it's cool to be green.  Not just the people in Woodstock who belong to the Sierra club, I'm talking about all people.  The Rap stars need to stop driving Hummers with tires the size of my Popup trailer, and Jay Leno (who has a green garage with 100 cars in it ??????)  Needs to start collecting and showing off green vehicles.


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## KeithO (Sep 6, 2007)

Warren
How big is your house ? The SIP homes I mentioned earlier http://www.valubuild.com/cost.asp#results cost 1/3 of what you mention above for the entire shell with flooring.  The insulation equivalent to R38 and fewer leaks than stick built mean your energy consumption should drop dramatically.   Sometimes the best thing to do is sell if you can and start fresh.  Most first time home buyers in Michigan end up buying a modular home on 0.5 acre for $140-170k.   For the same money one could have a much better home if only it was possible to get a construction loan.  Due to my immigration status and new credit status I was in a position where I could only finance an existing home which was a very frustrating experience for me (and the frustration continues..)
Keith


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## wg_bent (Sep 6, 2007)

Keith, 

Believe me I've thought of rebuilding, but it's not practical.  There is no way you can build an entire house, plus garage, driveway, fixtures, landscaping, lot, etc... for 30K 

Around here lots start at about 200k per 1/2 acre, that is if you can find a buildable lot.  A while ago I looked at building a stress skin panel home, and the cost was about 1/4 more than stick built, and 50% more than modular.  I went with the modular.  I built a 2500 sqft home and the modular cost was 99k.  Cheap eh?  Well, the total cost at the time (about 10 years ago) was 186k, and the lot was 20k.  That was in central NY near Binghamton.  Here in Poughkeepsie, the lot is 200k, bringing the cost of the modular with lot and foundation to near 400k  and yes, that's more than I can spend.


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## KeithO (Sep 6, 2007)

Warren: What is locking you in at the place you are staying ?  What shape is the property market in ?  If you can get a reasonable price for what you have, there are many less expensive places to live.  And possibly a better climate more suitable for independant living too.  That is why I am buying land in Colorado.

I would rather struggle for 2-3 years and do much of the work myself in order to avoid a $200k loan over the next 30 years.  But thats easy for me to say, considering I have a good job and no health problems.  Not everyone is able to be equally self reliant.   Here in Michigan, I would make a loss of at least 20-30% if I had to sell now and relocate.  The job losses in automotive and the increased gas price (which keeps the commuters away) have knocked real estate prices to the bottom of the barrel.


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## elkimmeg (Sep 7, 2007)

In a way I glad Woz is discovering green homes. Makes me feel briliant for doing so 30 years ago myself designing it my self. Set up to be passive solar receptive in the winter designing it factoring the declinaTION OF THE SUN'S ANGLE AND ENOUGH I OVERHANG TO SHADE THE GLAS IN THE SUMMERS,  Building the nothern esposure into the ground and reduced glazing facing north R 27 side walls masive granite facing behind the central fireplace wood stove location absorbing all the 24/7 heating and releasing it  when the stove dies down. 

Building the home completely by myself designing as I built it Squeezing out every possible  usable floor space aloting decent closet spacem Tweaking my oil burner with fire retentioners motorized dampers  knowing cast iron retains heat longer that steel setting the electrode gap for hoter firing and effecienccy Insulating ever concibable pipe Bliss is not hearing it function at all 

I feel I have saved over 20,000 possibly 30,000 of oil usage since I built this home not huge but economical well within the means of duplication or a common builder today.

Steve you are so right bigger is not better 

Did you know I can rest in bed soaking up sun shine and drift away feling the basking sun on my body in Feb and it is zero out Total comfort Pasive solar radiation. I have even devised ways
 to prevent that heat escape when the sun goes down No rocket scince needed just simple insulated drapes with Valance boxes built and draft stoppers  along the floor made od sand sawdust a sewed together in a  tube like configuration.

What about capuring solar heat inside the home for storage? What if I designed my floor infront of the windows with dark collored tile? then run water tubing under them using the passive solar rediation to heat the tile and cement boards underlayment heat storage medium then heat the water in the tubs? the water is then sent to a tank and can be used to recirculate heat to the very same floors it extracted heat from to be relaeased No expensive pannells not freezing to worry about. Take it another step the sun is used to pre heat water to your domestic hot water tank then re circulated in a closed loop system No I don't need Woz to point me in the green direction been there done that. 

What abou this An Ac system that only uses a blower. Say I extract  hot air from my home and channell it threw underground pipe?  after the air is exposed to 250' below grade cooling at 55 degrees it re enters the home on the mid 60's a only consumption used is an electric blower No compressor and quite effective when the air cools in the pipe it condensates and leaved the moisture there which I pitched it and allow it to enter the ground  So the original air is re entering the home dryer and cooler I used corrigated pipes for the moisture extraction..

Boy where was Woz to help me design these systems Unfortunately 10 years later I built an addition here and dug up the ground AC system and never re installed it but it worked remarkably well for the level I fed it into.   If I had the money I would have the dream green energy star home but I don't and never will So I havd to learn to be cleaver thinking outside the box and using what I had in hand to achieve  a green home 30 years before Woz even gave it a thought


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