# Air sealing success stories



## EatenByLimestone (Oct 22, 2013)

Last year we had a bunch of stories about air sealing our houses.  It's time to fess up and tell if they were successful or not.  

I'll start.  Last year I finished off my attic and felt really good about the job I did insulating and such.  Then the snow came and I got to see all of the patches of melted snow.  The largest one was over a spot that I blew 18" of cellulose over.  That was the event that started my airsealing education and campaign.  I went around with a caulk gun and then started putting up foam boards and then sealing around them.  By the end of winter I had most of it done.  I still have one area of kneewall to do, but I want to see how bad the snow melts above it to serve as motivation.  Other than that spot I believe I'm sealed down to the floorboards upstairs.  

Downstairs I already had new windows put in.  I finished with the new windows in 2009.  Last winter I ran around on a windy day and sealed around the outlets.  This summer I finished a closet that I lost the plaster in due to a leak on one wall and then condensation on another after the warm air was able to get into the wall.  It's all insulated and sealed now.  I'd like to put new storm doors on the front and back door, but they are expensive so I don't see it happening before next summer.

I started working in the basement by replacing 4 single pane windows that were cracked and didn't open with 3 hoppers and one sliding window.  I'll be hitting the rim joists this winter.  

So results:

The house stays much warmer.  Yesterday, after a smoke issue due to a yellow jacket nest in the was cleared, I got the woodstove in the unfinished basement running.  I burnt about a load and a half with the last fill around 5pm.  My house is still 69F off of a high of 70F when I went to bed after the temp dropping to the 39F last night.  It's been as high as 53 today and is windy with rain today.  We're supposed to get down to 34F tonight, so I may start another load if the temp starts to fall inside.

Right now I'm happy as a clam with the air sealing I've done.  

Matt


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## velvetfoot (Oct 22, 2013)

On a side note, perhaps that downdraft was a symptom of a tighter house!


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## EatenByLimestone (Oct 22, 2013)

Maybe.  If I continue to have a lighting issue I'll have to fix that one kneewall to stop the house from acting like a chimney.  It should be clear in a few days if that is the case.  I'll be doing a bunch of paper charges if it is.


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## velvetfoot (Oct 22, 2013)

In a little while, the stove will always be warm and there won't be an issue.


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## EatenByLimestone (Oct 22, 2013)

That will be nice...


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## Where2 (Oct 22, 2013)

I'm very impressed. If I read your post correctly, the last load into the wood stove was around 5PM, and at noon the following day you had dropped one degree with anywhere from a 30°F to 16°F temperature differential between inside and outside, including wind and rain.  

If you only understood how inefficient houses in Florida are, you would cry. Florida houses cannot keep a 10°F temperature differential for an afternoon.


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## EatenByLimestone (Oct 22, 2013)

I lived in W. Palm Beach from '86 to '94.  I really wasn't into houses as a teenager, but I think we had electric heat.  I know that we didn't have natural gas to the house as we had a small propane tank burried in the back yard, but that only heated a hot tub that my parents installed.  I know the house was made of block with a stucco exterior.  I have no idea if and how well it was insulated though.  I know my father didn't turn on the AC enough and I had mold growing in the corners of my room.  It's odd, I can't imagine not knowing the source of heat in a house.  The house we lived in before that (back in NY) had oil heat and a woodstove in the family room.  I guess it's a matter of necessity up here, but didn't seem important down there.

I ended up lighting the stove about 45 minutes ago and the house was at 67F.  Outside was at 45F and there were a few coals in the ashes when I stirred them.  Not enough to do anymore than keep the firebox warm.  I figure I'll do a PR coup with the wife and keep her warm.  

Matt


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## begreen (Oct 23, 2013)

We sealed up so many leaks in the 2006 remodel that it is like a whole new house for heating. Sealing the rim joist and then insulating it along with the crawlspace walls made a huge difference in floor temps in the winter. The crawlspace never goes below 60F now. However, there is still too much glass area for this size house, but that is not going to change. Maybe we will get around to insulated curtains some day.


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## B-Mod (Oct 26, 2013)

I built my own interior storm windows, using glass, and magnets to hold the glass in place. Works pretty slick. I also put Styrofoam in all windows, some totally covered, others about 2/3 covered if I wanted to see out, or get more sunlight in. This fall I will be building interior storm window in the basement single pane windows, and maybe getting to the rim joists.....


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## EatenByLimestone (Oct 26, 2013)

Do you have any pics of the storm windows?  They sound pretty nice!

Matt


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## B-Mod (Oct 26, 2013)

They are very simple, my windows have a built in piece of wood about 1" from the glass of the window, it is about 3/4" of an inch wide. I bought rolls of strip magnets, you have to look for the ones that work to they attract each other, and have an adhesive backing on them. I attached one to the wood, then found it best to put the other attracted to the installed magnet. Then removed the protectors from the magnets adhesive, and then inserted the glass in the opening. If you stick the magnets on both the window frame, and the glass, they do not line up exact, and will actually repel each other if they are enough out of alignment. I install a few thumbtacks as a back up to the magnets, just in case, lol. I used glass as it was quite a bit cheaper than plexiglass.....


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## kod198707 (Oct 27, 2013)

Instead of styrofoam, I read that bubble wrap works well. It will also let in light, and rolls up for storage.


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## EJL923 (Nov 19, 2013)

I've been contemplating sealing/ins rim joists, been wondering what the payback on that job is?


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## ailanthus (Nov 20, 2013)

I just posted this under another thread seconds ago, but it would be appropriate for here as well - here's my story from ~3 years ago:

I had a blower door test done for $300, then spent another ~$800-1000 on DIY projects (attic insulation, duct sealing/insulation, etc. etc.) and then switched to wood heat - so I have no idea how effective it all was. The purpose of doing it all was that I didn't think we could comfortably heat the whole house with wood without some improvements. We had been paying ~$2000 annually on heating oil, but now we're using wood heat 99% of the time.. I had to install a new chimney and stove, so some money was definitely spent, but the payback will be relatively short.


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## EatenByLimestone (Dec 6, 2013)

Well, it's been colder now and I have some updates.  The house has been warmer this year and the humidifier has to be refilled much less.  I'm counting that as a success story for my upstairs air sealing. 

I decided to start on the rim joist and sill plate.  Well, that's going to require more foam than I thought.  I think a drunk guy did the block work and parge coat.  There are plenty of shims under the sill plate and then the bays in the blocks are open so I'm stuffing Roxul into the open bays (Roxul as opposed to something else because I have about 3/4 of a bag of it and don't know what else to do with it.) and foaming over the openings.  I'm also foaming around foam boards placed between the floor joists, right up against the rim joist.  I'm placing the foil side toward the inside.


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## woodgeek (Dec 7, 2013)

Matt,

How much of the block walls are above grade? Are they already insulated on the inside?  Depending, you might want to think about filling the block cavities with something pourable like perlite.  The open cavities will have huge horizontal and vertical heat transport by convection.  

You would want to get the perlite that is treated to be hydrophobic, for masonry app, not the garden stuff (that could absorb water).  Its available over the 'net, but the shipping is $$.  If you found a drivable source, it could be quite affordable and effective....


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## woodgeek (Dec 7, 2013)

Yar, and my airsealing story is a 1960 house, with ACH_50 estimated to be 15-20 when I bought, dropping to 6-7 (measured) after extensive DIY work in the attic and windows.  This was dropped further to 4-5 (about the limit w/o forced ventilation) by some pros for about $1500 after an energy audit.


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## EatenByLimestone (Dec 7, 2013)

I think I'll insulate outside the block some time in the future.  It's just the time/money thing.  When you have 1, the other isn't there.  I couldn't believe the gaps I filled though.  There were 1/2" and 3/4" shims all over the place.  I got the back wall done last night.  I'll work my way around the house in the next few days.  

Matt


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## woodgeek (Dec 7, 2013)

Understood.  I would go for the perlite cuz w/o the exterior finish details, its a lot easier and cheaper than exterior foam (but also less effective).  You could just skip foaming the top of the cavity to keep the option open for later....


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## laynes69 (Dec 7, 2013)

I airsealed our attic a couple years ago, which dropped our heating demand by probably 30%, we had over 30 open cavies from interior walls dumping heated air into the attic. We saw a huge improvement, but we still had 2 major areas of our home that were extremely drafty. Our laundry room was half rotten, and whenever I would walk in the room, the floor could just about freeze water. It was an old part of the house that's was built after the initial construction, but well over a hundred years old. Our den was the other problem area. Extremely drafty, and very cold. 

Well this summer I gutted the den, and tore off the old laundry room from the house. In place of the laundry room, we built a 2 story addition. The den was airsealed, and insulated (no drywall yet). Well I'll just say it's a huge improvement, even after adding square footage to the home. Currently, it's 16 degrees and falling (looking to be around 11 tonight). Before, It was a chore to try and not have a large coalbed build up. The house would be warm, but we would be goin thru a bit of wood. After all the improvements, we are able to let the coals burn down. The house is staying much warmer, and we are burning less wood. Last night I loaded the furnace at 10pm, and set the thermostat for 72. When I woke up at 7:30am, the house was 69 and we had a nice coal bed. Within a half hour, the house was back at 72. 

I still need to concentrate on the basement, where there's alot of room for improvement. Menards carries a diy foaming kit, which I want to use on our sills. We have half concrete block and half boulder foundation walls with large beams on top. It's a problem area that will be difficult to fix. People at work think I'm crazy, but I enjoy comfort, and savings.


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## B-Mod (Dec 7, 2013)

I just bought some the diy foaming kits from Menards, but I am not sure when I will get to using it yet. Hope they work good.


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## wingsfan (Dec 7, 2013)

B-Mod said:


> I just bought some the diy foaming kits from Menards, but I am not sure when I will get to using it yet. Hope they work good.


 

let us know how that works, i'd like to maybee try that.


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## 1750 (Dec 9, 2013)

My preference would be to create a thermal break from the grade/subgrade exterior temps by insulating the exterior basement walls, but barring that, does it make sense to use foam panels to insulate the interior?  Once the cold has communicated through the wall from the outside into the building envelope, isn't the point moot?


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## woodgeek (Dec 10, 2013)

Basement insulation is a v complex topic for a new design.  You can insulate the interior of a basement wall with a water/mold resistant foam, but then you would also want to put a thermal break between the slab and the wall, lest the cold wall sink heat from the slab (which should have R-10+ insulation under it).

In retrofit situations, its a free for all...anything built before 1990 or so is such an uninsulated horror show, that anything you do should improve the performance is a good idea...just avoid potential wetting/wicking/mold issues.

I have a lot of foundation wall that is 50% above grade, that is fully finished in the interior with drywall on 1" furring strips...a 1" uninsulated cavity.  Kind of a stumper from a retrofit point of view (w/o serious demo)....I might talk to an icynene guy about the above grade parts.  In the below grade but dry parts, I might pour in some perlite.  In the wet parts (near a drain/sump) I will call it good enough and leave it as it is for maximum drying potential.


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## 1750 (Dec 10, 2013)

I knew enough to have rigid foam insulation (R-10) under the slab, but (maybe oddly) didn't know enough about thermal breaks to ask for the same thing on the below-grade poured walls.   I kick myself, of course, because it would have been so easy to do this prior to backfilling!

In the finished area I had the wall furred out with 2x6, and with rigid foam against the poured wall and then rolled insulation to fill the rest of the cavity.   In the unfinished area, it's just poured wall.   It's all dry, and I was wondering if it would make any sense to put rigid foam against the unfinished walls.   

Maybe it's worth it to try and still dig down next to the basement walls and slide sheets of rigid foam?  That would be a lot of work, but it would only be 5 ft or so in most places.


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## DBoon (Dec 10, 2013)

I just iterated on a lot of little things (wall insulation, EPDM gaskets on bottom of double hung windows, bronze weatherstripping on double hungs, spray foam on above grade basement walls, etc.) to get the infiltration lower.  No one things does it all until you get to the end...

I couldn't even tell you how bad my ACH was before I did all this.  All I know was that my wife complained of breezes through the house in the wintertime, and the smell of other peoples wood smoke in our house...

The last blower door test I had done came up with an ACH (at 50 Pascals) of 5.5 (1800 CFM for a 1200 square foot house with a full basement).  The blower door technician suggested two things for me to seal better - the attic hatch and a basement door, and by his estimation if I did those two things (I did) I would drop that by 40% (to about 3 to 3.5).  I've read that the natural ACH is the ACH50 divided by ~10, so that would give me a pretty small value.  The house sure feels pretty comfortable now, and with the new oil boiler using outside air for combustion, I feel pretty good about the air sealing work I've done.


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## DBNH22 (Dec 12, 2013)

I have fiberglass batts in my attic to R30.  They're probably performig more like R20.  I pulled them up and airsealed as much as I could with Great Stuff this spring but I think I might have a professional come out and so it.  As I've read on here, most DIYers actually miss a lot in the attic when they do the air sealing themselves.  

My basement rim joists are being spray foamed today.  

In the spring I think I may have some blown in cellulose added to the fiberglass batts to get me to R50.  Need to install new baffles first though.


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## DickRussell (Dec 13, 2013)

DBoon said:


> ... I've read that the natural ACH is the ACH50 divided by ~10, so that would give me a pretty small value.



The depressurization to 50 pascals is intended to get well beyond "natural" leakage, which is driven by both wind pressure and that resulting from air density differences due to outside temperature. Clearly, leakage is worst when it's very windy and bitterly cold outside and nearly nonexistent when it's mid-60s and calm outside. That's one reason why any argument that you should "build tight, but not too tight - the house has to breathe" is so flawed and simply doesn't work. There is no way to design in any amount of "leakage" that is just right for any set of conditions, let alone all the time. Anyway, to approximate "natural" worst case leakage from the ACH50 number, one would divide by a number more like 18, plus or minus, and which depends on the house configuration (single story vs two) how well it is protected from wind by trees and topography, and climate.


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## DBoon (Dec 14, 2013)

Hi DickRussell, I've seen a lot of different values indicated for the "divisor" for ACH50 to get natural leakage - I'm hoping you can point me to some further references on this topic...thanks.


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## woodgeek (Dec 14, 2013)

I've seen some of those, and while they might be useful in some contexts, they are statistical models.  If your air leakage in your ACH50 is all at the bottom on one side of the house, then natural convection will be squat (think hot air balloon) and wind driven air will also be squat (compared to CFM50).  You can imagine other permutations....all leakage is low, but on opposite sides, half the leakage is high, half low, etc.  The bottom line is that it is impossible to infer ACH_nat or ACH_wind from ACH_50 in anything other than a statistical sense.  ACH50 is a great way to define airtightness in a building code or to validate airsealing work during a retrofit, but is not useful for energy modeling in a single house.  

Myself, I like 15-18 for the 'best guess ratio' of ACH_50 to ACH_nat.


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## GaryGary (Dec 14, 2013)

Hi,
Here is a method for converting the 50 Pa ACH to nautural ACH that takes into account some of the variables like climate, sheltering, height of house...

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Conservation/BlowerDoor/FlowRates.htm#Natural

See the LBL method.

Gary


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## EatenByLimestone (Dec 16, 2013)

While I was down in the basement tightening up and sealing air leaks I smelt a bit of the natural gas perfume.  I got some soapy water and checked all of the joints, but still couldn't find anything.  I called National Grid.  The guy with the fancy equipment couldn't find any at first, then he switched to a different setting (I'm guessing a little more sensitive) and found the leak.  He had to shut me off... But at least he realized I was somewhat competent when I explained what I had done to try to find it and only turned off the valve at the meter.  He didn't seal it.  He said, "Just replace the csst with black pipe and leak test it.  Then you'll be good to go."  Well that's what I did and just finished my 2nd leak testing. 

With the woodstove I wasn't too worried, but I don't like not having backup heat when we're supposed to be down to 3 tonight.

I think there was probably enough air moving around before I started sealing up the area that I never noticed the leak before.  On disassembling the CSST pipe I found the original contractors overtightened a compression joint and crushed a ring/gasket.


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## drewmo (Dec 16, 2013)

Great thread as we had the rim joists sealed and basement walls insulated to a minimum of 3 feet below grade just recently on our 1920s-built home. With this cold settled over us, my basement is now about 50 degrees with no radiant heat (furnace was removed over the summer). Over the last couple of days I've done some additional insulating (plastic over windows and other miscellaneous areas of air infiltration). I've seen a 2-3 degree rise in basement temperature even with the outside temps dropping. Last winter with no insulation and no radiant heat, the basement would hover around 36 on the coldest of days. Way too cold for my comfort.


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## DBNH22 (Dec 17, 2013)

drewmo said:


> Great thread as we had the rim joists sealed and basement walls insulated to a minimum of 3 feet below grade just recently on our 1920s-built home. With this cold settled over us, my basement is now about 50 degrees with no radiant heat (furnace was removed over the summer). Over the last couple of days I've done some additional insulating (plastic over windows and other miscellaneous areas of air infiltration). I've seen a 2-3 degree rise in basement temperature even with the outside temps dropping. Last winter with no insulation and no radiant heat, the basement would hover around 36 on the coldest of days. Way too cold for my comfort.




Yikes.  What did you first floor floors feel like prior to the basement insulation?  I just had my rim joist but not basement walls spray foamed and it made a noticable difference in how the floors feel.

It certainly is cold today here in southern NH.  On my drive in to work this morning the car thermometer read -5.


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## drewmo (Dec 17, 2013)

Dana B said:


> Yikes.  What did you first floor floors feel like prior to the basement insulation?  I just had my rim joist but not basement
> walls spray foamed and it made a noticable difference in how the floors feel.
> 
> It certainly is cold today here in southern NH.  On my drive in to work this morning the car thermometer read -5.



Floors were a bit cold, but I'm thankful for a wife who can spot a man (and child) without slippers from a mile away. While I'm not exactly thrilled about this cold snap, I'm kinda happy that it came early to give the insulation a good testing.


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## DBNH22 (Dec 18, 2013)

drewmo said:


> Great thread as we had the rim joists sealed and basement walls insulated to a minimum of 3 feet below grade just recently on our 1920s-built home. With this cold settled over us, my basement is now about 50 degrees with no radiant heat (furnace was removed over the summer). Over the last couple of days I've done some additional insulating (plastic over windows and other miscellaneous areas of air infiltration). I've seen a 2-3 degree rise in basement temperature even with the outside temps dropping. Last winter with no insulation and no radiant heat, the basement would hover around 36 on the coldest of days. Way too cold for my comfort.




Did you use spray foam for this and have it come out of the rim joist area over the sill plate down the walls?  I had considered doing that an dhving it go down four feet on the walls  as I'm told that that's where the forst line is in NH.  But the extra cost for material and time is not something I was ready to absorb righ tnow.  I just wanted to get the rim joist done and maybe next year I'll tackle the basement walls.


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## newbieinCT (Dec 18, 2013)

love this thread! All these success stories are motivation. Just moved into a 2200sqft, oil-heat 1890s farmhouse. We are house poor but through CT programs, we are eligible for rebates and financing for insulation.  We are about to pull the trigger on attic insulation, whole house air sealing and most likely wall insulation (debating that one...not sure but will probably go for it).  It's scary to say you are going to invest so much when you just got for your first few mortgage payments, but we are going to do it. Stories like the ones abovet make me feel better about it!  Add on a new stove to the air sealing and insulation and I'm hoping we will be toasty warm 
Thanks everyone! 
meg
ps: a few weeks ago this entire thread would have been gibberish to me  - ACH, R ratings, perlite, rim joists.  Big learning curve but everything on here made sense to me...and I'm nodding my head in agreement as I read along. Seriously, thanks everyone!


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## DBNH22 (Dec 18, 2013)

newbieinCT said:


> love this thread! All these success stories are motivation. Just moved into a 2200sqft, oil-heat 1890s farmhouse. We are house poor but through CT programs, we are eligible for rebates and financing for insulation.  We are about to pull the trigger on attic insulation, whole house air sealing and most likely wall insulation (debating that one...not sure but will probably go for it).  *It's scary to say you are going to invest so much when you just got for your first few mortgage payments, but we are going to do it. Stories like the ones abovet make me feel better about it!  Add on a new stove to the air sealing and insulation and I'm hoping we will be toasty warm *
> Thanks everyone!
> meg
> ps: a few weeks ago this entire thread would have been gibberish to me  - ACH, R ratings, perlite, rim joists.  Big learning curve but everything on here made sense to me...and I'm nodding my head in agreement as I read along. Seriously, thanks everyone!



It may be scary but it makes good financial sense if you plan on being in the home for a long period of time.  Some of the heating systems/insulation/air sealing and other projects discussed on this site are far more costly than others and will have a longer payback time.  I think air sealing and insulating rim joists tends to fall on the lower end of that scale and payback time is relatively short for most who do it.  After it's paid for itself it's nothing but savings as long as you live in the home.  It always amazes me that people will drop 10k, 20k or even more on something like new kitchen cabinets or a bathroom remodel but never once  think about there home's energy use.  Granted some of the aesthetic upgrades can sometimes add value to a home but usually not the amount you spent on them.

Like you all of this talk abour R values, rim joist, air sealing etc was foreign to me just a short time ago.  Last year's heating bills put a pretty severe scowl on my face.  Having to order 100 to 130 gallons of oil every three to four weeks was downright miserable when oil prices were bouncing around 3.79 - 3.99 a gallon.  Being the frugal sort I figured that there had to be a better way to heat my home so I began doing research on oil alternatives.  Along the way I've learned a great deal about wood pellets, wood pellet boilers, natural gas, r values, air sealing, the whole nine pertaining to making a residence as energy efficent as possible.  Along the way I stumbled on this site and have found it to be a great source of free, invaluable information.  There are a lot of great people on here willing to share their experience and knowledge.  Making my home as energy efficient as possible has now become somewhat of an obsession.  My wife doesn't mind because we have two very young childran and plan on staying in the home for at least another twenty years barring life throwing some major league curveballs our way.  She sees the bottome line made out of $$$$ under all that spray foam and those bags of wood pellets.


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## EatenByLimestone (Dec 18, 2013)

I'm considering doing the upper 4 feet of basement walls with this:

http://www.reflectixinc.com/basepage.asp?PageIndex=622

It's pretty much bubble wrap with a radiant barrier on both sides.  Since radiant barriers work best when they can reflect heat back into an air space it should work well against the wall reflecting heat back into the room.  Without the air space it's R-3.?.  With the air space it should be much more effective.  The main sellng point to me is that it's cheap enough I won't feel bad if I decide to tear it out when I eventually get the outside of the walls insulated.


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## EatenByLimestone (Dec 18, 2013)

Dana B said:


> I think air sealing and insulating rim joists tends to fall on the lower end of that scale and payback time is relatively short for most who do it.



Most of my air sealing was done with caulk.  Some of it was more expensive and specialized than other caulk, but it was caulk.  The payback is real quick for that stuff.  



Dana B said:


> My wife doesn't mind because we have two very young childran and plan on staying in the home for at least another twenty years barring life throwing some major league curveballs our way.



My wife is more concerned with the comfort aspect.  I'd rather not pay lots of money for her comfort.  I want her to be comfortable, but I don't want to go broke doing it!


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## woodgeek (Dec 18, 2013)

EatenByLimestone said:


> I'm considering doing the upper 4 feet of basement walls with this:
> 
> http://www.reflectixinc.com/basepage.asp?PageIndex=622
> 
> It's pretty much bubble wrap with a radiant barrier on both sides.  Since radiant barriers work best when they can reflect heat back into an air space it should work well against the wall reflecting heat back into the room.  Without the air space it's R-3.?.  With the air space it should be much more effective.  The main sellng point to me is that it's cheap enough I won't feel bad if I decide to tear it out when I eventually get the outside of the walls insulated.



I still think that stuff is junk.  Overpriced junk at that.  I'd start at an inch of foamboard.

With hollow blocks, pouring in perlite would be easy, and work better than that stuff.


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## DBNH22 (Dec 18, 2013)

EatenByLimestone said:


> Most of my air sealing was done with caulk.  Some of it was more expensive and specialized than other caulk, but it was caulk.  The payback is real quick for that stuff.
> 
> *My wife is more concerned with the comfort aspect.  I'd rather not pay lots of money for her comfort.  I want her to be comfortable, but I don't want to go broke doing it!*



Making the home more comfortable and more energy efficient are often one in the same.  I hear you about going broke doing some of these things though.  For me there has to be demonstrable proof that the money invested will produce a significant savings at some point down the road.  Otherwise it doesn't get done.


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## DBNH22 (Dec 18, 2013)

woodgeek said:


> I still think that stuff is junk.  Overpriced junk at that.  I'd start at an inch of foamboard.




I've never seen that stuff before but I'd have to agree with you on the foamboard for basement walls.  When I get around to doing mine the only two materials I'll consider will be spray foam or 2" XPS rigid foam.  I'll have to see which is more cost effective at the time.  if I go with the rigid board I'll install it myself but if I go with spray foam I'll have someone do it.


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## newbieinCT (Dec 18, 2013)

Dana B said:


> It may be scary but it makes good financial sense if you plan on being in the home for a long period of time.  Some of the heating systems/insulation/air sealing and other projects discussed on this site are far more costly than others and will have a longer payback time.  I think air sealing and insulating rim joists tends to fall on the lower end of that scale and payback time is relatively short for most who do it.  After it's paid for itself it's nothing but savings as long as you live in the home.  It always amazes me that people will drop 10k, 20k or even more on something like new kitchen cabinets or a bathroom remodel but never once  think about there home's energy use.  Granted some of the aesthetic upgrades can sometimes add value to a home but usually not the amount you spent on them.
> 
> Like you all of this talk abour R values, rim joist, air sealing etc was foreign to me just a short time ago.  Last year's heating bills put a pretty severe scowl on my face.  Having to order 100 to 130 gallons of oil every three to four weeks was downright miserable when oil prices were bouncing around 3.79 - 3.99 a gallon.  Being the frugal sort I figured that there had to be a better way to heat my home so I began doing research on oil alternatives.  Along the way I've learned a great deal about wood pellets, wood pellet boilers, natural gas, r values, air sealing, the whole nine pertaining to making a residence as energy efficent as possible.  Along the way I stumbled on this site and have found it to be a great source of free, invaluable information.  There are a lot of great people on here willing to share their experience and knowledge.  Making my home as energy efficient as possible has now become somewhat of an obsession.  My wife doesn't mind because we have two very young childran and plan on staying in the home for at least another twenty years barring life throwing some major league curveballs our way.  She sees the bottome line made out of $$$$ under all that spray foam and those bags of wood pellets.



I'm scared to see a winter's heating bill here...we haven't been here long enough and, like you, plan to be here long term.  This site is pretty amazing...so many options. I want to walk into the nearest Harman dealer right now and buy the biggest stove we can afford..but there's some kind people on here saying there are other options, other brands, pellet boilers, geothermal. We have a lot to think about, esp b/c we have a crazy layout.  We plan on doing some stuff ourselves - rim joist and basement insulation type stuff (you should see the mess in our crawlspace below the kitchen!).  We are thinking of it the same way - insulate and air seal before rehabbing the kitchen. it's hard to do when the kitchen something you see everyday but hopefully we will FEEL the difference.  I think we are only hesitant about retrofitting all the walls w/ dense pack cellulose. Hear great things but people say it's not worth all the money if you have properly sealed house and insulated attics. We'll see.

I'm starting to talk about R values in my sleep..and dream it! I was telling my husband this morning about the 3rd contractor that came. He said "but we only had two come". Apparently, the 3rd one was part of my dream last night! I'm need a vacation from insulation 
Meg


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## woodgeek (Dec 18, 2013)

newbieinCT said:


> I'm scared to see a winter's heating bill here...we haven't been here long enough and, like you, plan to be here long term.  This site is pretty amazing...so many options. I want to walk into the nearest Harman dealer right now and buy the biggest stove we can afford..but there's some kind people on here saying there are other options, other brands, pellet boilers, geothermal. We have a lot to think about, esp b/c we have a crazy layout.  We plan on doing some stuff ourselves - rim joist and basement insulation type stuff (you should see the mess in our crawlspace below the kitchen!).  We are thinking of it the same way - insulate and air seal before rehabbing the kitchen. it's hard to do when the kitchen something you see everyday but hopefully we will FEEL the difference.  I think we are only hesitant about retrofitting all the walls w/ dense pack cellulose. Hear great things but people say it's not worth all the money if you have properly sealed house and insulated attics. We'll see.
> 
> I'm starting to talk about R values in my sleep..and dream it! I was telling my husband this morning about the 3rd contractor that came. He said "but we only had two come". Apparently, the 3rd one was part of my dream last night! I'm need a vacation from insulation
> Meg



I'd be scared of the oil man too.  In your climate, I would cross the 'geo' off the list.  Performance on geos is generally overstated, and within spitting distance of mini-splits, and they would cost 3X as much as minis for installation.  Might be a case for geos in the far north and new construction, but minis are chasing them out of most of the lower 48 IMO.  Assuming natgas is not available, I would think your budget options would be wood, pellets or mini-splits, or some combination of those.  Any of those will be a few $k up front, but prob save $500-1000/year.


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## EatenByLimestone (Dec 18, 2013)

woodgeek said:


> I still think that stuff is junk.  Overpriced junk at that.  I'd start at an inch of foamboard.
> 
> With hollow blocks, pouring in perlite would be easy, and work better than that stuff.



Foam board would have to be covered and with the 30 down in the basement I'd rather not leave it uncovered! I don't want to finish off the basement.  My ceiling is barely 6 feet from the floor.


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## DBNH22 (Dec 18, 2013)

newbieinCT said:


> I'm scared to see a winter's heating bill here...we haven't been here long enough and, like you, plan to be here long term.  This site is pretty amazing...so many options. I want to walk into the nearest Harman dealer right now and buy the biggest stove we can afford..but there's some kind people on here saying there are other options, other brands, pellet boilers, geothermal. We have a lot to think about, esp b/c we have a crazy layout.  We plan on doing some stuff ourselves - rim joist and basement insulation type stuff (you should see the mess in our crawlspace below the kitchen!).  We are thinking of it the same way - insulate and air seal before rehabbing the kitchen. it's hard to do when the kitchen something you see everyday but hopefully we will FEEL the difference*.  I think we are only hesitant about retrofitting all the walls w/ dense pack cellulose. Hear great things but people say it's not worth all the money if you have properly sealed house and insulated attics. *We'll see.
> 
> I'm starting to talk about R values in my sleep..and dream it! I was telling my husband this morning about the 3rd contractor that came. He said "but we only had two come". Apparently, the 3rd one was part of my dream last night! I'm need a vacation from insulation
> Meg



The guy I had do my energy audit said the rule of air sealing/insulating a home is the ABC rule, attic, basement, center in that order.  You get more bang for your buck starting with the attic as that is where most of your heat will leave your home if it's not properly sealed and insulated.  I only have R19 fiberglass batts in my walls but I'm not as concerned with the walls as I am the attic and basement.  If you have not already learned about the stack effect you should read up on it on the internet.  It's the phenomenon whereby the warm air in your home esacpes at the top causing the pressure at the lower lefels of your home to decrease and cold air to be sucked in.  Sealing both the top and bottom of your home will reduce this.


This is your first winter in New England Meg?  Although CT is considered part of New England Danbury and that whole southwest corner tend to culturally identify with NYC more than New England.  More Giants fans there than Patriots fans.  Where are you from originally?


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## semipro (Dec 18, 2013)

EatenByLimestone said:


> Foam board would have to be covered and with the 30 down in the basement I'd rather not leave it uncovered! I don't want to finish off the basement.  My ceiling is barely 6 feet from the floor.


Wouldn't you have to cover the Reflectix too?  I don't think its a proper thermal (flame retardant) barrier. 
If you don't want to finish the basement and don't want to install a thermal barrier over the insulation wouldn't something like Roxul work or is to too expensive for you?


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## woodgeek (Dec 18, 2013)

EatenByLimestone said:


> Foam board would have to be covered and with the 30 down in the basement I'd rather not leave it uncovered! I don't want to finish off the basement.  My ceiling is barely 6 feet from the floor.



Aaah.  I see.  Still think the reflectix is a waste of time.  Perlite (or any other cavity fill) is easy, permanent, cheap and non-combustible.

A list of R-values before and after block fill... http://www.schundler.com/rvalues.htm


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## EatenByLimestone (Dec 18, 2013)

semipro said:


> Wouldn't you have to cover the Reflectix too?



I hadn't heard that.  I'll look into it.  

It has a Class A/ClassI fire rating.  The same as brick.  Wood has a Class II and plywod Class III.  



woodgeek said:


> Aaah. I see. Still think the reflectix is a waste of time. Perlite (or any other cavity fill) is easy, permanent, cheap and non-combustible. A list of R-values before and after block fill... http://www.schundler.com/rvalues.htm




Am I understanding the chart right in that I can bring a 10" block (not lightweight) from 2.31 to 5.95 by filling each and every cavity?  

How is that better than R 3.7?  Especially if you consider time invested?


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## woodgeek (Dec 18, 2013)

EatenByLimestone said:


> I hadn't heard that.  I'll look into it.
> 
> It has a Class A/ClassI fire rating.  The same as brick.  Wood has a Class II and plywod Class III.
> 
> ...



The issue is I don't believe anything from the reflectix site is correct.  I think it is a R-1.5 insulation product.  It radiation shield properties will deteriorate as soon as it gets dirty/dusty.  And I think it is flammable.  And priced at about 500% the cost to manufacture.


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## Justin M (Dec 18, 2013)

EatenByLimestone said:


> Foam board would have to be covered and with the 30 down in the basement I'd rather not leave it uncovered! I don't want to finish off the basement.  My ceiling is barely 6 feet from the floor.


I went the spray foam route because it didn't cost much more.  But if you don't want finished walls then why not consider Dow THERMAX foam board sheething?   http://building.dow.com/na/en/products/insulation/thermaxsheathing.htm . It's supposed to be approved to be left exposed to the interior,  but you should check with your local building dept. to be sure.


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## EatenByLimestone (Dec 18, 2013)

I didn't know there was a foam that didn't need to be covered.  I'm going to have to look for a close distributor.


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## woodgeek (Dec 18, 2013)

I've gotten the Thermax at my local Home Despot.  Its foil faced poly-iso.


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## Justin M (Dec 18, 2013)

Or  there is a spray foam company near you that offers "Intumescent Coatings: Includes thermal and ignition barriers to add a fire rating to your spray foam insulation as required by most codes".
 http://www.upstatesprayfoam.com/energy-star.cfm


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## 1750 (Dec 18, 2013)

Justin M said:


> I went the spray foam route because it didn't cost much more.  But if you don't want finished walls then why not consider Dow THERMAX foam board sheething?   http://building.dow.com/na/en/products/insulation/thermaxsheathing.htm . It's supposed to be approved to be left exposed to the interior,  but you should check with your local building dept. to be sure.


This is what I was looking at.  I think you can just glue it to the poured wall, and then you are done.  I'm assuming the reflective surface enhances the R.  

Does anyone know which of the rigid foams you can use with ground contact on the outside?   I was thinking about trenching along the exterior to 36" and sliding rigid foam against the poured wall.


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## woodgeek (Dec 18, 2013)

I thought the issue in ground was insect tunneling.  Prob want something treated with borates...?


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## drewmo (Dec 18, 2013)

Dana B said:


> Did you use spray foam for this and have it come out of the rim joist area over the sill plate down the walls?  I had considered doing that an dhving it go down four feet on the walls  as I'm told that that's where the forst line is in NH.  But the extra cost for material and time is not something I was ready to absorb righ tnow.  I just wanted to get the rim joist done and maybe next year I'll tackle the basement walls.



Yes, for the most part, the spray foam covers the sill plate and runs down the wall. We have some pipes and such running along the basement ceiling so it was probably a little difficult to work around given the pressure coming out of the wand. We took a pretty favorable loan through Efficiency Maine and will get about 15% back in rebates. I've seen somewhere that NH also offers some pretty decent rebates (better than Maine to my chagrin). Not sure if it was www.nhsaves.com, but I'm sure any home energy auditor would know what's available.


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## newbieinCT (Dec 22, 2013)

woodgeek said:


> I'd be scared of the oil man too.  In your climate, I would cross the 'geo' off the list.  Performance on geos is generally overstated, and within spitting distance of mini-splits, and they would cost 3X as much as minis for installation.  Might be a case for geos in the far north and new construction, but minis are chasing them out of most of the lower 48 IMO.  Assuming natgas is not available, I would think your budget options would be wood, pellets or mini-splits, or some combination of those.  Any of those will be a few $k up front, but prob save $500-1000/year.


Thanks, woodgeek! Initial look at geothermal made it look amazing - the cold weather here will make it an issue in winter months.  My dad loves learning about this stuff - the nerd in him comes out. He's been sending me links and texting me stuff that says the same was what you are.  A combo is going to be the best for us. for now, we are investing in a good pellet stove.  Next up, figure out a plan that will probably include wood insert (or possibly freestanding, not sure if there's room) and ductless.  Going to have to speak with the neighbor that says he has geothermal. He has an old antique and I can't imagine it's all that warm...especially dead of winter unless he's eating up his oil (which terrifies me!)

Thanks for the advice


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## woodgeek (Dec 22, 2013)

Geo is nice technology, and can provide cheap heat and a long service life.  It's just very expensive up front, and many performance specs (that look awesome on paper) neglect the energy costs associated with pumping water in the ground loop.  A good installer picks a right sized pump and the performance is great.  A bad installer puts in a bad loop and an oversized pump, and the resulting system is an energy pig.  It varies a lot.

For financial estimating, use our site's calculator: https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/fuel_cost_comparison_calculator/
with your local fuel costs.  For the minis, put in 250% for efficiency in electric.


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## DBoon (Dec 23, 2013)

Getting back to air sealing...I am, by nature, curious and I want to know how "tight" my house is and whether I should pursue more air-sealing measures.  I want to stop short of adding a ventilation system (I don't want to make it too tight) due to cost and the fact that I have hydronic heat, so adding extra ventilation would be somewhat problematic and expensive.  Here is the short summary (detail below) - I've tightened up a lot and achieved good results (the blower-door test guy was amazed at what I've achieved in my old house), but I still have room to improve (if I want to).  It's almost impossible to make an old house too tight without a gut rehab.

Details:
I knew my CFM50 (and therefore my ACH50) and I had been wondering what the best "conversion" from ACH50 to ACH natural (not pressurized) should be.  I had heard from elsewhere that a divide by 10 was a pretty good number to use, and others here (Woodgeek, Dick, Gary) suggested numbers in the range of 12-20.  I used Gary's adjustment calculator (seep previous post) and came up with 16.375. 

I also found that this presentation link http://www.buildingscienceconsulting.com/presentations/documents/Expert 2013 - Ventilation_rev.pdf confirms this range of numbers.  See page (not slide) 62 and look at the slide in the bottom right where it references a study of a home in Quebec City that compared the ACH50 to a gas tracer test reading at normal pressure.  The ratio was 4.16 (ACH50) / .30 (average gas tracer reading), or about 14. 

So, I am going to assume 15 for my conversion from ACH50 to ACH(natural).

My original house blower door test was 1800 CFM at 50 Pa.  I was told that if I sealed up the attic hatch better and the basement access door (which I subsequently did), I would probably drop to around 1200 CFM at 50 Pa, so I am going to use 1200 CFM as my "test" value.  My house is 1250 square feet with a full basement, and 8.33 foot high ceilings in the living area and 7.5 foot height in the basement.  So that gives me about 19,750 cubic feet.  My ACH50 is (1200 cubic feet/minute * 60 minutes/hour) / 19,750 cubic feet = 3.65.  My ACH(natural) would then be 3.65 / 15 (from above), or 0.24.  I'm feeling pretty good about this, especially since my house is a 1922 bungalow, and I still really need to get into that attic and seal up a few hard to reach ceiling penetrations....Essentially, ACH50 of 3.0 is what you can get if you seal up the big holes and a 1.5 is possible addressing smaller holes (per the link above).  I'm nearly there.

Now, I'd like to know "what is the lowest I could go without creating "problems" (health, odors, moisture, etc.) or without requiring mechanical ventilation.  My "gut" tells me that I can push a little further...

Using my 0.24 ACH(natural), that would mean 86 CFM for the house, or doing the math (0.24 air changes/hour * 19,750 cubic feet) / (60 minutes/hour) = 79 cubic feet/minute of natural ventilation. 

Referencing the above Joe Lstiburek presentation, the desired CFM for the house is 7.5 CFM per person + 0.01 to 0.03 CFM per square foot of conditioned living space.  "Person" is defined as numbers of bedrooms + 1, which would mean 4 (even though my wife and I are the only occupants of the house).  So that means 4 * 7.5 CFM + 0.01 * 1250 (square footage of living area) = 42.5 CFM (using the BSC formula) or 67.5 CFM (using the ASHRAE formula with a .03 multiplier).  See pages 63 and 67 of the above referenced link for these formulas. 

So it looks like that I am in the "safe" zone still on not making my house too tight.  This is not surprising given that it is really, really hard to make an old house too tight unless you do a gut rehab (which there is no need to do on this house). 

Next up...I need to motivate myself to rip up the attic floorboards and seal a few pesky ceiling penetrations, and also seal around the chimney chase.  I can also make a few more improvements to the basement door sealing - realistically, I am probably not getting all the improvement I should since there are some areas I didn't seal at all and now that winter is here, I can feel the result of this.

Those planning to achieve the results I have should note that I have no appliances (excepting my wood stove) that utilize house air for combustion.  Summary below:

Stove - electric
Range - electric
Water Heater - heat pump with electric backup
Boiler - oil using outside combustion air (though not "sealed combustion")
Woodstove - uses inside air for combustion drawn from the basement

I absolutely did not take the final steps to seal up the basement doors really well until I had a new boiler installed that used outside combustion air.  I had previously noticed that if I was trying to establish a new fire and run the boiler at the same time, my woodstove chimney draft wasn't as good as it was with the old oil boiler not running.  This raised concerns about sufficient ventilation to run these two appliances simultaneously.  Now, there are no problems if I run both simultaneously.


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## woodgeek (Dec 23, 2013)

Ok DBoon, I previously had a similar goal...to airseal my house to the point of min adequate natural ventilation, but not beyond, because adding an HRV would not be cost effective.

I agree with all your math above, but in the end I have come to a different conclusion. The issues are subtle, IAQ, humidity, freshness, allergens, performance in mild weather versus cold weather, etc.

The formulae you provided from ASHRAE and building science guru Joe L. are for determining proper *mechanical* ventilation rates in very tight houses.  AFAIK, none of these guys recommend simply tightening a house such that ACH50/15 provides that rate.  Instead they say that you should build tight ACH50 <3 and put in forced ventilation....an HRV in cold climates or either an HRV or a simple blower in mild climates.  And the ventilation should have a controller the occupants can use to turn off the ventilation when it is not needed.

As I understand it, Joe L. and other gurus say that occupants in houses without mechanical ventilation start to give 'stale air' reports sometimes around or below ACH50 = 5.  Reports of excessive winter humidity also start in around or below that level (depending on amount of water vapor sources, use of bath fans, etc).  The ballpark value for 'lowest ACH50 that doesn't require some mechanical ventilation' is around 5, and that assumes the proper use of bath fans to control odors/humidity and cracking a window for fresh air during mild weather.

This ACH50=5 completely jibes with my experience.  I started at ~ACH50 = 15+ (estimated) years ago and got down to a measured ACH50 = 5.5 this summer. Since more leaks were sealed after that work, I guess that I am around ACH50 = 4.5 now, with 4 occupants in 2250 square feet, and no combustion appliances.  We have plenty of fresh air except when the outside temp is hovering in 55-75° range for extended periods.  Specifically, under those conditions the house retains cooking odors >8 hours, and odors from tiny amounts of garbage can permeate the whole house at a low level.  Running 1 bath fan continuously (80 cfm), or cracking a couple windows removes the problem completely.  In the spring and fall, we do the window thing.  In mild weather in the winter (as now) I switch the fan on.  Not really a big hardship. Note that since I am only adding ventilation in mild weather, there is minimal energy penalty.  ACH50 = 5 does not need extra ventilation in cold weather.  

As for humidity, so far this year my humidifier has stayed in the closet and RH has ranged from 30-40%, even through some respectable cold spells. I intentionally don't vent shower humidity in cold weather; but if the RH got too high, I would.

So right now I have manual control of ventilation that is not a hardship, but if I miss it, as in the recent warm weather I come home to a smelly house and an annoyed wife.  I am thinking of installing a single small blower on an outdoor thermostat to turn on when the outdoor temp is >50°F.  That would be the budget alternative.  Or I could just get a cheap HRV and run it more to get even fresher filtered air.  I wouldn't duct it everywhere, just to my biggest space, and let the HVAC circulate it.  The more time goes by, the more I am leaning to the second choice.


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## lml999 (Dec 23, 2013)

EatenByLimestone said:


> Most of my air sealing was done with caulk.  Some of it was more expensive and specialized than other caulk, but it was caulk.  The payback is real quick for that stuff.
> 
> My wife is more concerned with the comfort aspect.  I'd rather not pay lots of money for her comfort.  I want her to be comfortable, but I don't want to go broke doing it!



27 years of marriage here...there's no better investment than my wife's comfort. 

When she's happy, everybody is happy!


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## EatenByLimestone (Dec 23, 2013)

I don't think any of the guys here will disagree with that!  The women won't disagree either!


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## DBoon (Dec 24, 2013)

I certainly agree "happy wife = happy life".  I also agree with the points that Woodgeek is making - as air infiltration goes down, other factors become more apparent.  The folks at Building Science (Joe L. and friends) discuss this a lot.  

I've been pretty cautious about how I've approached this for good reason - I don't want a moldy, smelly house that is a little more efficient on fuel, and I didn't want a tight house that fuel burning appliances couldn't function properly in.  That was why I was explaining what I did and why, and where I was today. It's quite possible that if I did a new blower door test today, that I would not have reduced by CFM value (and hence my ACH50) to what I think I did - I could still be around ACH50 = 5. 

I do think that I am reaching the law of diminishing returns anyways...which is why it is hard to motivate myself to do a lot of ugly, hard work to get a little bit more reduction. The reality is that I probably also once had an ACH50 = 15, and could feel drafts in the house.  Now I don't and my wife and I are comfortable.  So further motivation is tough, though I think I will still do a better job of sealing that basement door...

The next house will be sealed better upon renovation, and will have an ERV/HRV for sure.  That is already dialed in to the plans.


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## newbieinCT (Dec 24, 2013)

EatenByLimestone said:


> I don't think any of the guys here will disagree with that!  The women won't disagree either!



Since I am the "wife", I wish I could disagree with this part of the thread. But I can't. I know that I will obsess over something I feel doesn't "work right".  I think that's why the husband gave me full reign to ask questions and figure out the right stove...happy me = less questioning later


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## woodgeek (Dec 24, 2013)

DBoon, I guess a better way to explain this is that ACH50 is a measured number.   And ACH_nat is not a number, it is a function of time, wind, outdoor temp, and even its seasonal time average is only statistically correlated with ACH50.  I would not be surprised if your ACH50 was 3.65 (measured) and you do NOT have problems with getting fresh air, while I can be at ACH50 = 4.5 and have noticeable issues during mild weather.  My location is very wind sheltered.  My airsealing in the attic is complete, so a lot of the CFM50 might be in the sides of the house.  IF your residual leaks are top and bottom, not sides, and you are more wind exposed, your average ACH_nat can still be above mine.

I think the emerging paradigm in building science is about homeowner control.  Giving folks an airsealed house where they can turn on a fan, an HRV or open a window is giving them more control over air quality than they had in a leaky house where the leaks could not be turned off (with out of control allergens and dust in mild weather, and hard to humidify dry air in the winter).


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## DBoon (Dec 24, 2013)

Given that any estimation of ACH(natural) from an ACH50 reading is just that - an estimation only, I could certainly believe that two houses with identical ACH50 would have different performances in real-world conditions.  I read somewhere else (can't remember where) that another way to estimate ACH(natural) is to measure and plot ACH at different pressures and extrapolate down to natural conditions. 

In any case, "calculating" an ACH(natural) number is just an exercise in curiosity.  I have a feeling that I'll know when I seal too much - but I haven't reached that yet.  And it is certainly the case that if you are building new, the general idea is to build it tight and introduce a controlled amount of ventilation, and not have the ventilation be an uncontrolled infiltration.


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## DBNH22 (Dec 26, 2013)

lml999 said:


> 27 years of marriage here...there's no better investment than my wife's comfort.
> 
> When she's happy, everybody is happy!




That reminds me of a bumper stick I once saw that read "If mama aint happy, aint nobody happy!"

But the all time funniest bumper sticker I've ever seen had to be "Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you're an a$$h*&e."  Please note that this wasn't meant to offend anyone here.  I just found it to be a damn funny bumper sticker.


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## EatenByLimestone (Dec 29, 2013)

People get offended too easily.

I'm going to try to get a little more sealing done today.  On Wednesday evening we're scheduled for -13F.


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## DBNH22 (Dec 29, 2013)

EatenByLimestone said:


> People get offended too easily.
> 
> I'm going to try to get a little more sealing done today.  On Wednesday evening we're scheduled for -13F.



-13 sure sounds like one heck of a way to ring in the New Year.


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## EatenByLimestone (Dec 29, 2013)

Those nuts in Time Square will be a little cold this year.  

I had one kneewall left that will filled with bins of babyclothes.  There is only a small entrance to it, so I was dreading getting in to seal that.  The wife and I pulled everything out of it and I got foam up.  1" thick boards for most of it and spray foam around the edges.  I'm sealed to the floorboards.  I will go back and tape it just to make sure of the seal and then fill it back up.  I purchased vacuum bags at Harbor Freight so maybe it will be a little less of a mass of stuff in there.


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## semipro (Dec 31, 2013)

The foil faced polyiso product our local box store carries is the GAF EnergyGuard.
It has a flame spread rating of less than 75 which would put it in Class B.  I"m not sure what Class materials are required in what living areas.  Page 159 here would seem to contain that info from the IRC. http://www2.iccsafe.org/states/newjersey/nj_building/PDFs/NJ_Bldg_Chapter8.pdf

The Life Safety Code (NFPA 101)[5] and Section 803.1 of the International Building Code limit finishes for interior walls and ceilings to materials in three classes (A, B, or C, with A being the lowest flame spread and C being the highest) and gives greater restrictions for certain rooms:

Class Flame Spread Index
A 0-25
B 26-75
C 76-200

Edit: I'm doing some insulating work in the basement and have some areas where it would be great to have only the foam without an additional flame barrier over it.  I thought I'd pass on the info above as it seemed relevant. I've not been able to find the TherMax product that Woodgeek referred to nearby so I was looking for alternatives.


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## EatenByLimestone (Dec 31, 2013)

The foam I'm using has to be separated from living areas by at least drywall.  My drywall doesn't immediately cover it, but between the foam and the room is a framed knee wall.


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## EatenByLimestone (Jan 22, 2014)

I trimmed out the finished attic in the past 2 weeks and this is the first cold snap we've had since then.  Part of what I did was to pull the caulk and such from around the windows and make sure I've foamed as much as I can and then recaulked and trimmed it out.  The windows were installed before I was worried about things such as air sealing.  Last night we got down to -6 and the house was snapping and popping from the cold.  I don't recall that happening when we were down to -12 before.  Maybe I caught a few small leaks doing it.  

Matt


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