# Chain dull in two hours?



## nrc (Mar 5, 2019)

I have some three foot diameter by ~21 inch thick Ash rounds that I finally decided to get rid of.  The Home Depot rental splitter wouldn't go through them so I decided to start noodling them with a chainsaw as I've seen suggested here.

I have an 18" Craftsman saw so it's a lot of work but it's yielding some very nice chunks of wood.  These have been on the ground three or four years so they're at <15% MC and burn really nicely.

The trouble is after two hours of work my chain seems fully dull and I'm making sawdust.  I picked up the recommend Oregon S62 replacement chain, and went for round two.  I was very careful to let the chain do the work and keep it out of the dirt.  Same result - dull after two hours.

Is this typical?  I'm fully an amateur at this but I've cut a lot of smaller Ash branches and rounds and never dulled this quickly.  Is it just that the heartwood in these large rounds from the trunk is harder?

I guess I'm going to have to hone my sharpening skills.  Or maybe sharpen my honing skills.


----------



## DodgyNomad (Mar 5, 2019)

If they've been on the ground 3 or 4 years, I'm betting theirs a lot of dirt/and debris embedded in them.  If you look at soil under a microscope, it's made up of lots of tiny, abrasive rocks.  

That's what's likely dulling your chain more quickly than you like.  

Try to get the logs up a bit, and if you have access to a stiff broom or brush, knock off any heavy dirt that you might have to cut through.  It helps.


----------



## SeanBB (Mar 5, 2019)

Ash seems to get much harder the more it seasons. I had some ash rounds that had been at the bottom of a stack for a few years and the maul just bounced off them.


----------



## kevin j (Mar 5, 2019)

not unusual. Two hours is a lot of cutting. I usually put a couple file strokes on the chain every two tanks or so


----------



## bholler (Mar 5, 2019)

Yeah I would be pretty happy with 2 hours of cutting out of a chain.


----------



## Tar12 (Mar 5, 2019)

2 hours of noodling is pretty good! The Stihl 2-n-1 sharpener is your friend...buy it and master it!


----------



## DodgyNomad (Mar 5, 2019)

Tar12 said:


> 2 hours of noodling is pretty good! The Stihl 2-n-1 sharpener is your friend...buy it and master it!




That's the first thing that came to mind when I read the original post.  You typed what I was going to type last night, almost verbatim.  

2 hours is pretty good for wood that's been laying on the ground.  Stihl 2 in 1 for the win.


----------



## JimBear (Mar 5, 2019)

Tar12 said:


> 2 hours of noodling is pretty good! The Stihl 2-n-1 sharpener is your friend...buy it and master it!


Speaking of mastering it. How goes the square grind learning curve?


----------



## nrc (Mar 5, 2019)

Great feedback, guys.  I feel better knowing that's not atypical.   Yes, there's some dirt on these but usually I can just peel the bark off where I'm working.  The way the Ash borer infested these trees it's falling off anyway.

YouTubed the Stihl 2-n-1 sharpener and that looks perfect.


----------



## peakbagger (Mar 5, 2019)

The best trick to a sharp chain is drop the tree on snow and buck it in place. The snow doesn't dull the chain and keeps the chain out of the dirt. I know folks who used to pick log landings after a harvest. The wood that was left was usually full of dirt. I have seen folks have to pressure wash logs there was so much dirt on them. A definitely risk when buying a truck load of logs as the loggers will sometimes get that last buck out of job by selling the dirty stuff.


----------



## rowerwet (Mar 5, 2019)

back when everything was done with a two man or single buck saw, you cleared away the bark from the cut with a "spud" because bark dulls the saw.
a hatchet would do the job, but really, 2 hours is longer than I would go on my 20" or 24" saws between sharpening. I hit my chain with the Pferd 2 in 1 sharpener every other tank of fuel at most.


----------



## SpaceBus (Mar 5, 2019)

As others have stated, two hours is a long time cutting, especially with a 50-ish cc saw. My 460 feels like an anvil after cutting all day. I'm glad to have picked up a tiny Stihl 150 for limbing duty and just using the 460 for bucking and felling (when needed). I'm getting up to five chains now, so I'll probably get an electric sharpener.


----------



## maple1 (Mar 5, 2019)

You're sure you're noodling - and not ripping?


----------



## GadDummit (Mar 5, 2019)

I had a huge 4 - 5 foot thick maple that dulled mine in about 1 hour. You're doing just fine! Just get a sharpener like everyone said and you'll have something to do during those breaks, haha. I have the Timberline sharpener and it's screwproof even for an arthritic bastard like me.


----------



## MissMac (Mar 5, 2019)

nrc said:


> I have some three foot diameter by ~21 inch thick Ash rounds that I finally decided to get rid of.  The Home Depot rental splitter wouldn't go through them so I decided to start noodling them with a chainsaw as I've seen suggested here.
> 
> I have an 18" Craftsman saw so it's a lot of work but it's yielding some very nice chunks of wood.  These have been on the ground three or four years so they're at <15% MC and burn really nicely.
> 
> ...


if you're ripping wood, then you want to use a ripping chain.  otherwise it will be really hard on your chain and your bar.  also dirt on the wood will really dull your chain quickly.  always a good idea to give your teeth a couple of quick strokes frequently rather than waiting until you're shooting out ferry dust.


----------



## bholler (Mar 5, 2019)

I always just carry extra chains with me.  I dont like to waste time sharpening in the feild when i can do it in the shop sitting on a stool infront of the chain grinder.  Yes doing it thatway shortens the life of the chain but it saves so much time it is well worth it to me


----------



## Woodsplitter67 (Mar 5, 2019)

Id be upset if i had a chain go dull in 2 hours. I just sharpened a chain this past weekend that iv been using sence  january. Iv touched up the chain 3xs with a hand file.
        Wood thats been on the ground sucks to cut as alot of times theres alot of dirt on the rounds
         One key thing is that as soon as you think the chain is getting dull run the file on it and touch it up.. the duller the chain gets the harder it is to bring back


----------



## Corey (Mar 5, 2019)

Dunno, two hours seems pretty good to me - especially in a hard wood, and noodling where it's harder to rock the saw.  In hedge, I can definitely tell some performance drop after a tank of gas or two.  Sure, in small rounds you can rock back-n-forth to keep a point contact, high 'per tooth' loads and decent cutting.  But noodling always seems to lead to long flat saw cuts, load spread out over a bunch of teeth and slower cutting.

If using any power sharpening, be sure not to blue the teeth with heat, that will take out some of the hardness and make them dull faster.  But I usually hit the chain after every tank of gas or two.

Also - what is up with a splitter than can't do a 20" round?  Must have been something wrong with that splitter - hope you got your money back!


----------



## bholler (Mar 5, 2019)

Woodsplitter67 said:


> Id be upset if i had a chain go dull in 2 hours. I just sharpened a chain this past weekend that iv been using sence  january. Iv touched up the chain 3xs with a hand file.
> Wood thats been on the ground sucks to cut as alot of times theres alot of dirt on the rounds
> One key thing is that as soon as you think the chain is getting dull run the file on it and touch it up.. the duller the chain gets the harder it is to bring back


It really depends how much you cut in that time.  In 2 hours I will have gone through 5 or 6 tanks of gas.  And I switch chains about every hour of cutting.  

Btw I haven't sharpened a chain since jan either but that's just because my saw has just been sitting on the bench.


----------



## SpaceBus (Mar 5, 2019)

bholler said:


> It really depends how much you cut in that time.  In 2 hours I will have gone through 5 or 6 tanks of gas.  And I switch chains about every hour of cutting.
> 
> Btw I haven't sharpened a chain since jan either but that's just because my saw has just been sitting on the bench.



I've got three chains to sharpen and haven't run the saw since Jan either. I go back and forth with getting an electric sharpener.


----------



## bholler (Mar 5, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I've got three chains to sharpen and haven't run the saw since Jan either. I go back and forth with getting an electric sharpener.


I like the electric sharpener.  It saves a ton of time.  But you do have to be carefull you dont burn the chain or it will dull very fast.


----------



## blacktail (Mar 6, 2019)

When comparing the chain's performance to when you cut branches and small logs, just think about how much work your chain is doing. Bigger wood requires your chain to remove a lot more material per minute.


----------



## Woodsplitter67 (Mar 6, 2019)

bholler said:


> It really depends how much you cut in that time.  In 2 hours I will have gone through 5 or 6 tanks of gas.  And I switch chains about every hour of cutting.
> 
> Btw I haven't sharpened a chain since jan either but that's just because my saw has just been sitting on the bench.



Iv been doing alot of cutting sence january.. i didnt post what i cut.. iv cut well over 4 cords to rounds and now have 2.5 cords in log lenth and a bunch of other miscellaneous cutting. I would estimate that i have atleast a mimium of 12 hourd on that chain. It could have kept going, but i had the time to clean up the saw, so i did a full service. 

I dont think id be super happy if i would have had to change my chain 6 times over the course of that time.


----------



## bholler (Mar 6, 2019)

Woodsplitter67 said:


> Iv been doing alot of cutting sence january.. i didnt post what i cut.. iv cut well over 4 cords to rounds and now have 2.5 cords in log lenth and a bunch of other miscellaneous cutting. I would estimate that i have atleast a mimium of 12 hourd on that chain. It could have kept going, but i had the time to clean up the saw, so i did a full service.
> 
> I dont think id be super happy if i would have had to change my chain 6 times over the course of that time.


What wood are you cutting?  What chain are you running?  I have neer heard of anyone cutting that long with that little sharpening.


----------



## maple1 (Mar 6, 2019)

Yes, 12 hours on one sharpening seems pretty out there, even for clean as a whistle softwood. I am usually touching mine up every second tank, and that's if I don't knick the ground or otherwise get into something dirty. Might get the third tank in if I'm lucky.


----------



## Woodsplitter67 (Mar 6, 2019)

bholler said:


> What wood are you cutting?  What chain are you running?  I have neer heard of anyone cutting that long with that little sharpening.



 The majority im cutting is oak, i did cut a little poplar and im guessing 1/2 cord of cherry so far. Mostly oak. 

As i said in my original post, i have touched it up so far 3xs with the hand file.. but my chain is not so beat that i need to swap it out.  This past weekend I did a real sharpening on the grinder.

As for the chain, its all Husqvarna bar and chain.. iv been running my 550xp 95% of the time.


----------



## bholler (Mar 6, 2019)

Woodsplitter67 said:


> The majority im cutting is oak, i did cut a little poplar and im guessing 1/2 cord of cherry so far. Mostly oak.
> 
> As i said in my original post, i have touched it up so far 3xs with the hand file.. but my chain is not so beat that i need to swap it out.  This past weekend I did a real sharpening on the grinder.
> 
> As for the chain, its all Husqvarna bar and chain.. iv been running my 550xp 95% of the time.


My chains are not so beat i need to swap them out.  I just choose to because it is much faster than even a quick touchup with a file.  But regardless the most i cut before i feel the chain is dull is a chord.  But that depends on the wood with rock oak i am lucky to get a half a cord.  Cherry i could do more than a cord probably but when i can fell the chain start to dull at all i just switch it out.  It only takes a min.


----------



## TreePointer (Mar 6, 2019)

As mentioned already, chain does matter.

*Hardness*.  Some chains have harder teeth than others and thus tend to stay sharper longer.  Example: standard Stihl chain has more chrome plating than standard Oregon/Husqvarna chain (thicker chrome plating makes it harder).

*Tooth geometry*. Semi-chisel teeth tend to keep their cutting efficacy longer than full chisel teeth.  Why?  While full chisel teeth will cut more aggressively than semi-chisel teeth of the same pitch, once the sharp point of a full chisel tooth wears down, cutting efficacy can rapidly diminish. Semi-chisel teeth don't start with that sharp tip in their geometry.

*Chain length*.  Shorter chains (on shorter bars of course) will seem to dull more quickly.  When cutting the same diameter wood, each tooth on a shorter chain cuts more per linear foot of chain travel than than a tooth on a longer chain.  This means more wear from friction for teeth on shorter chains.

*Pitch size*.  Larger pitches will cut more wood than smaller pitches before becoming noticeably dull.  This is because larger pitches take a larger bite of wood per linear foot of chain travel.  Larger bites mean each tooth spends less time cutting through the same diameter log.


----------



## Kevin Weis (Mar 6, 2019)

In other words size matters.


----------



## nrc (Mar 6, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> As others have stated, two hours is a long time cutting, especially with a 50-ish cc saw. My 460 feels like an anvil after cutting all day. I'm glad to have picked up a tiny Stihl 150 for limbing duty and just using the 460 for bucking and felling (when needed). I'm getting up to five chains now, so I'll probably get an electric sharpener.



Absolutely - I was pretty beat but really please with knocking some of this stuff out.   I have a 15" electric which I've found ideal for limbing and light work.



maple1 said:


> You're sure you're noodling - and not ripping?



This is an great point.  I hadn't really thought of noodling in terms of cross cutting vs ripping.  Like I said - amateur.  The way I approached these I was really ripping the majority of the time.  With an 18" saw dealing with a three foot diameter round it just seemed to make more sense to cut slices out along the length then to try to go across the diameter.

So on the next go I'll try doing 4" thick cross cuts and then ripping those and that should be much less ripping.   Thanks for that.



Corey said:


> Also - what is up with a splitter than can't do a 20" round?  Must have been something wrong with that splitter - hope you got your money back!



I did get my money back.  It went through some 2-2 1/2 foot diameter rounds that were 20-24" think but it would not budge on the three foot plus ones.  These are monster rounds so I wasn't sure if that was to be expected.  It was a 25 ton stand up splitter from Home Depot.


----------



## maple1 (Mar 6, 2019)

You should be able to avoid any ripping at all, actually.


----------



## nrc (Mar 6, 2019)

maple1 said:


> You should be able to avoid any ripping at all, actually.



Once I cross cut it into 3' diameter 4" thick rounds is cutting down through the grain to cut it into strips not considered ripping?  Seems like that's still with the grain.


----------



## maple1 (Mar 6, 2019)

4" rounds? Not sure there's a reason to go smaller than your normal firewood length.

Kinda hard to explain but I'll try. Picture a log on the ground. Cut a 20" (or whatever your stove length is) round off. Roll it to the side a bit so it's clear of the log. Stand at the end of the round and cut right through the round from the top side all the way to the ground. (If you have a 20" bar that will take the full length of the bar). That is noodling. If you had stood or pushed the round over on its cut face first and done the same thing that would be ripping. And if it was a 36" diameter round you bar only would have reached half way across.

Think that's all I got...


----------



## nrc (Mar 6, 2019)

maple1 said:


> 4" rounds? Not sure there's a reason to go smaller than your normal firewood length.
> 
> Kinda hard to explain but I'll try. Picture a log on the ground. Cut a 20" (or whatever your stove length is) round off. Roll it to the side a bit so it's clear of the log. Stand at the end of the round and cut right through the round from the top side all the way to the ground. (If you have a 20" bar that will take the full length of the bar). That is noodling. If you had stood or pushed the round over on its cut face first and done the same thing that would be ripping. And if it was a 36" diameter round you bar only would have reached half way across.
> 
> Think that's all I got...



Actually, based on that description it's closer to what did than I was thinking.   I guess I didn't describe it well.

Diagram below shows it.  First cuts are the blue.  When I cut that I try to keep the bar up as much as possible so I'm cutting through the grain from the end/top of the round. I'm only doing the blue cuts about six inches deep because it seemed easier than trying to use more of the bar and get a deeper cut.  Once the blue cuts are done I roll the round to the side and make the orange cut straight down.


----------



## maple1 (Mar 7, 2019)

I would likely only quarter or halve by noodling , then do the rest with a splitter.


----------



## Medic21 (Mar 7, 2019)

I cut a lot of dead ash.  It dulls chains fast.  I switched to semi chisel chains for this reason.  The full chisel still feel sharp but, if you push it along your finger nail is just slides across.  That same chain will fly through soft wood but, won’t touch ash anymore.  

Use semi chisel on ash or sharpen as soon as it slows down.


----------



## Sodbuster (Mar 24, 2019)

bholler said:


> I like the electric sharpener.  It saves a ton of time.  But you do have to be carefull you dont burn the chain or it will dull very fast.



Like Holler said with an electric sharpener, which I have. All you need to do is spark it a bit, if you see the tooth change color you hit it too hard. All you want to do is see shiny steel, then it's sharp.


----------



## Sodbuster (Mar 24, 2019)

Medic21 said:


> I cut a lot of dead ash.  It dulls chains fast.  I switched to semi chisel chains for this reason.  The full chisel still feel sharp but, if you push it along your finger nail is just slides across.  That same chain will fly through soft wood but, won’t touch ash anymore.
> 
> Use semi chisel on ash or sharpen as soon as it slows down.



That's good to know Medic21, I have a lot of dead Ash to cut, I normally run full chisel, but will pick up a couple loops of semi-chisel.


----------



## ColdNorCal (Mar 24, 2019)

Make sure the chain oiler is placing enough onto the chain. My Craftsman out of the box was not.  Pferd or Stihl chain sharpeners work great and can be used out in the field.


----------



## woodhog73 (Apr 9, 2019)

I’m sorry in advance I didn’t read the posts. Just want to say I touch up my chains with a file every other fill up no matter what. Even just 1 file stroke helps. If you mean actually running 2 hours on your saw and the chain is dull ?? Well ya I’d say it’s dull in 20 minutes. Especially if your wood is dirty, dead on the ground wood, standing dead rotting wood etc.


----------



## aaronk25 (Apr 10, 2019)

I’m touching up my chains every 20-40 mins max.  So a lot of times at 3/4 a tank.  As soon as I can tell a difference each tooth gets a stroke or 2 from the 2 in 1 file.   (Takes the rakers/depth gauges down too).   It’s so easy once you “stay ahead of the sharpening”.let it get dull, really dull and it’s a lot of work.   

Plus the chain and bar temps go way up....not good. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## tadmaz (Apr 10, 2019)

I bought my MS261 with 2 stihl branded chains last March.  I cut 4 cords last year until the first chain got dull.  I've cut 3 cords so far this year and the second chain is starting to get dull.  I've bought a pferd and plan to sharpen the chains for the first time soon.  As long as I'm getting chips versus dust it must be sharp.  For the guys sharpening constantly, not sure what's going on.  Maybe once my chains get a few more years on them they will need more frequent sharpening?


----------



## Woodsplitter67 (Apr 10, 2019)

tadmaz said:


> I bought my MS261 with 2 stihl branded chains last March.  I cut 4 cords last year until the first chain got dull.  I've cut 3 cords so far this year and the second chain is starting to get dull.  I've bought a pferd and plan to sharpen the chains for the first time soon.  As long as I'm getting chips versus dust it must be sharp.  For the guys sharpening constantly, not sure what's going on.  Maybe once my chains get a few more years on them they will need more frequent sharpening?



Some of my chains iv ran for years and they dont need anymore sharpening than somthing fresh out of the box.. 
I agree with you on the fact that i can cut alot of wood and not have to touch the chain that much..


----------



## Sodbuster (Apr 10, 2019)

I've heard from more than one person that Stihl saw chain, while expensive, is worth the extra cost. They use a very high quality steel.


----------



## SpaceBus (Apr 10, 2019)

I think it also has a lot to with the condition, type of tree, and how much minerals or dirt are in/on the bark. I honestly can't believe that manufacturer of chain matters at all. If it did, the market would look much different. There's also how much use over a period of time. Someone who uses chainsaws every day will dull a chain in an hour of use, but they will have cut far more material than even an experienced chainsaw user that isn't using it every day. 

I used to never sharpen chains, but I also rarely used a saw. Now I might dull three chains a week if the weather is nice. Since my use is very high, I've ordered a Granberg sharpening jig because the hand guide is tedious. The Granberg will also keep chains sharper as the teeth will be all the same length.


----------



## Sawset (Apr 10, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I think it also has a lot to with the condition, type of tree, and how much minerals or dirt are in/on the bark. I honestly can't believe that manufacturer of chain matters at all. If it did, the market would look much different. There's also how much use over a period of time. Someone who uses chainsaws every day will dull a chain in an hour of use, but they will have cut far more material than even an experienced chainsaw user that isn't using it every day.
> 
> I used to never sharpen chains, but I also rarely used a saw. Now I might dull three chains a week if the weather is nice. Since my use is very high, I've ordered a Granberg sharpening jig because the hand guide is tedious. The Granberg will also keep chains sharper as the teeth will be all the same length.


Metallurgy matters. Actually quite a lot. If you look up "Marbain", that's something I work with. Allowed for a fair amount of market share in cutting blades and wear parts in the ag and turfcare eq industry. Competitors have a hard time competing with it. Patented material and heat treat process. Something similar may be in play with saw chain - I wouldn't doubt it.


----------



## TreePointer (Apr 10, 2019)

Stihl chain = thicker chrome plating = harder teeth

With all other factors excluded, this allows Stihl chain to stay sharper longer than softer alternatives.  It also means that harder files should be used to sharpen Stihl chain.


----------



## Sodbuster (Apr 10, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I think it also has a lot to with the condition, type of tree, and how much minerals or dirt are in/on the bark. I honestly can't believe that manufacturer of chain matters at all. If it did, the market would look much different. There's also how much use over a period of time. Someone who uses chainsaws every day will dull a chain in an hour of use, but they will have cut far more material than even an experienced chainsaw user that isn't using it every day.
> 
> I used to never sharpen chains, but I also rarely used a saw. Now I might dull three chains a week if the weather is nice. Since my use is very high, I've ordered a Granberg sharpening jig because the hand guide is tedious. The Granberg will also keep chains sharper as the teeth will be all the same length.



That's like saying  the manufacturer of the saw doesn't matter it's just a motor with a bar attached to it. Around here all the pros use Stihl, with very few exceptions. Used to be a mixture of Husqvarna and Stihl, but Husqvarna really screwed their distributors when they began selling through the big box stores.


----------



## SpaceBus (Apr 10, 2019)

Sodbuster said:


> That's like saying  the manufacturer of the saw doesn't matter it's just a motor with a bar attached to it. Around here all the pros use Stihl, with very few exceptions. Used to be a mixture of Husqvarna and Stihl, but Husqvarna really screwed their distributors when they began selling through the big box stores.



Loads of folks around here use Husqvarna as well. It's a preference thing, not a one better than the other thing.


----------



## SpaceBus (Apr 10, 2019)

This is like saying Ford is better because they use an DOHC engine vs GM with pushrods. It's all about preference.


----------



## salecker (Apr 11, 2019)

Chains matter...
Get some of the awesome china chains...
Don't have to resharpen,by the time they get dull they are to stretched to be reused.Make awesome skipping noises when the drives get to far apart to mesh with your rim or spur drive.
 But seriously it is known that the Stihl chains are one of the best if not the best chains out there.


----------



## SpaceBus (Apr 11, 2019)

salecker said:


> Chains matter...
> Get some of the awesome china chains...
> Don't have to resharpen,by the time they get dull they are to stretched to be reused.Make awesome skipping noises when the drives get to far apart to mesh with your rim or spur drive.
> But seriously it is known that the Stihl chains are one of the best if not the best chains out there.



You aren't event reading what I'm saying. I never said to buy the cheapest chain and that's as good as a quality chain. Husqvarna and Stihl both make quality products, it's just preference


----------



## Zack R (Apr 11, 2019)

Didn't read the whole thread but I touch up my chains after every day of use, which is rarely more than two hours of normal cutting. Noodling dulls them faster for sure, so I'd say you did great to get two hours of use.


----------



## salecker (Apr 12, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I honestly can't believe that manufacturer of chain matters at all. If it did, the market would look much different.


So which part of this did i get wrong?
You clearly state that in your opinion the manufacturer doesn't matter.
I said it does and gave an example.
So i stand by the fact that all chains are not created equal,therefor the manufacturer of the chain makes all the difference.


----------



## bholler (Apr 12, 2019)

salecker said:


> So which part of this did i get wrong?
> You clearly state that in your opinion the manufacturer doesn't matter.
> I said it does and gave an example.
> So i stand by the fact that all chains are not created equal,therefor the manufacturer of the chain makes all the difference.


It is the quality of the chain that matters not who made it.  Yes right now stihl make some of the best chains out there.  But they are not the only ones.  And just because they are top quality right now doesn't mean they will be in the future.


----------



## Sodbuster (Apr 12, 2019)

bholler said:


> It is the quality of the chain that matters not who made it.  Yes right now stihl make some of the best chains out there.  But they are not the only ones.  And just because they are top quality right now doesn't mean they will be in the future.



They will likely be king for the near term at least. They have a very loyal following by the pros that use them everyday to make a living, they'll  be the first to notice if quality slips. They charge a premium, but it's worth it. Kind of like lawn pros use Exmark  and Scag expensive but worth it, when downtime costs you money, it pays to pay a little more.


----------



## bholler (Apr 12, 2019)

Sodbuster said:


> They will likely be king for the near term at least. They have a very loyal following by the pros that use them everyday to make a living, they'll  be the first to notice if quality slips. They charge a premium, but it's worth it. Kind of like lawn pros use Exmark  and Scag expensive but worth it, when downtime costs you money, it pays to pay a little more.


Yes but Porter Cable and Delta used to be at the top for woodworking.  Now they area  junk.  DeWalt was untouchable for years with contractors not anymore. There have bern many other companies who let their quality slip when they were at the top.


----------



## SpaceBus (Apr 13, 2019)

bholler said:


> Yes but Porter Cable and Delta used to be at the top for woodworking.  Now they area  junk.  DeWalt was untouchable for years with contractors not anymore. There have bern many other companies who let their quality slip when they were at the top.


When did porter cable go down? We recently SNAGGED a PC 7" circ on sale.


----------



## Marshy (Apr 13, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> When did porter cable go down? We recently SNAGGED a PC 7" circ on sale.


IMO they have varying quality levels of tools. I think their drills are just as good as Makita, better than craftsman and just below dewalt. That's for the 18 and 20 volt tools. If you get the smaller ones they quality and build suffers.


----------



## bholler (Apr 13, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> When did porter cable go down? We recently SNAGGED a PC 7" circ on sale.


  They have slowly moved away from what they used to be since black and decker bought them in 04.  They still make some industral quality stuff but most of it is just homeowner grade stuff


----------



## bholler (Apr 13, 2019)

Marshy said:


> IMO they have varying quality levels of tools. I think their drills are just as good as Makita, better than craftsman and just below dewalt. That's for the 18 and 20 volt tools. If you get the smaller ones they quality and build suffers.


Makita dewalt and Milwaukee are now rated as the top 3 in cordless drills for quality.  Porter cable is on par with ryobi and hitachi when it comes to quality.  For homowner grade stuff they are pretty good.  But they dont hold up well to professional use.


----------



## salecker (Apr 13, 2019)

bholler said:


> Yes but Porter Cable and Delta used to be at the top for woodworking.  Now they area  junk.  DeWalt was untouchable for years with contractors not anymore. There have bern many other companies who let their quality slip when they were at the top.


Most of the time when that happens it is because of company take over by an aisian firm.The only thing they want is the name.You can see a bunch of "old USA " company names being used again.McCulloch is a fine example,or Bell and Howell.
 Stihl is a quality name with quality products,unless the company structure changes there is no reason to think that the quality will fall.


----------



## bholler (Apr 13, 2019)

salecker said:


> Most of the time when that happens it is because of company take over by an aisian firm.The only thing they want is the name.You can see a bunch of "old USA " company names being used again.McCulloch is a fine example,or Bell and Howell.
> Stihl is a quality name with quality products,unless the company structure changes there is no reason to think that the quality will fall.


I agree I don't think the quality will fall unless something changes with the company.  But that doesn't mean they will stay at the top nessecarily.  There could easily be another company who innovates and surpasses them.  It happened with DeWalt and their 18v line.  The quality of their product didn't change but everyone else improved while they didn't change for years.  Untill their 20v stuff came out now they are up with the leaders again.

I just think getting stuck on one brand is silly.  Things are not static the quality is all that matters to me and right now I use stihl chains because they have great quality and there is a dealer 5 miles from me.  If another good brand was closer I may not use them.

And btw most of the time it is an American company not an Asian one that buys up a brand and kills the quality


----------



## SpaceBus (Apr 13, 2019)

Y'all can believe what you want about chains, but my Stihl pro chain dulls just as fast as the chain that came with my Husqvarna "landowner" saw. I have noticed that Stihl has different sharpening angles than others, but that doesn't make them better.


----------



## Sodbuster (Apr 13, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> Y'all can believe what you want about chains, but my Stihl pro chain dulls just as fast as the chain that came with my Husqvarna "landowner" saw. I have noticed that Stihl has different sharpening angles than others, but that doesn't make them better.



It's really hard to judge chain quality over time unless you've paid very close attention to what you were cutting. I cut some live cherry out in the woods, and the chain lasts forevery. I cut a 150 year old shag bark hickory, that's set next to a gravel road, and I'll go through a chain every tank.  Pebbles and grit are literally ingrained in the wood, plus the outside is really gritty.


----------



## SpaceBus (Apr 14, 2019)

Sodbuster said:


> It's really hard to judge chain quality over time unless you've paid very close attention to what you were cutting. I cut some live cherry out in the woods, and the chain lasts forevery. I cut a 150 year old shag bark hickory, that's set next to a gravel road, and I'll go through a chain every tank.  Pebbles and grit are literally ingrained in the wood, plus the outside is really gritty.



Yes, I get a lot of sparks around here due to being on a ledge stone cliff. That happens on living trees too, not just stuff laying on the ground. I'm 90% soft wood here and I can't get more than two tanks out of a 20" loop. Perhaps in your neck of the woods chains last longer, but I stay busy with the file here.


----------



## aaronk25 (Apr 14, 2019)

Ya you guys going long times, like more than a couple tanks of gas without sharpening do not have a sharp chain, it is infact by most standards dull,l.  The difference is your cutting softer woods.  

Try bucking burr or white oak for one hour and not sharpening.    Not gonna happen.    I’ve switched back to semi chisel for oak as these 300 year old oaks have a lot of sand in them.  

And when you sharpen remember to take the rakers down to or you will be wasting your time....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## SpaceBus (Apr 14, 2019)

aaronk25 said:


> Ya you guys going long times, like more than a couple tanks of gas without sharpening do not have a sharp chain, it is infact by most standards dull,l.  The difference is your cutting softer woods.
> 
> Try bucking burr or white oak for one hour and not sharpening.    Not gonna happen.    I’ve switched back to semi chisel for oak as these 300 year old oaks have a lot of sand in them.
> 
> ...



I've been reading more about the different types of chain. I bought a couple of extra loops for my 460 without even knowing anything about the chains. Turns out they are all three full chisel. One of them was in rough shape from my poor hand filing skills. I got a Granberg file-n-joint and now all of my chains are like new. It's amazing what a little bit of time can do.


Perhaps some folks here with very long times between filing just aren't cutting much or forgot what a sharp chain was like.


----------



## Sawset (Apr 14, 2019)

I've run chains into icy dirt before, and it took 2-3 sharpenings to get it back to where it could cut decent for more than 10 minutes. I've also had new chains seem to cut ribbons for a very long time, way longer than from machine ground. I usually take a couple chains along, and change out when I think the edge is starting to dull. Usually after about three tanks, or an hour. Makes for a couple 2-3 hours cutting till I'm tired. I might try changing that routine to hand filing every tank, we'll see. It would be interesting to really look close at what is happening to the edge that is factory ground, vs say hand file, small dremel grinder, or bench grinder. What is really going on. That sandy ice really took the edge off - need to put my inspector gadget magnifier to it and find out.


----------



## SpaceBus (Apr 14, 2019)

I'm not going to lie, I sharpened my Stihl picco chain today and it was not near as bad as I thought it would be. The sparks flew as I cut lims flush with the trunk with my tiny 150tc. The chain got caught several times, but no issues. A few cutters had nicks, but overall not much material had to come off and all the cutters are even now. I don't know if anyone else makes picco chains, but the dealer sold me a stihl loop when I asked for a spare.

After reading some posts about cutting on these forums I might get a second bar for all three of my saws. They all have at least two chains each currently. There's a 395XP with two 24" ripping chains waiting for a sawmill. Unfortunately mud season is in full swing and I have nowwhere to put it right now.


----------



## TreePointer (Apr 14, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I don't know if anyone else makes picco chains, but the dealer sold me a stihl loop when I asked for a spare.




I like Stihl chain, but a couple years ago I tried Woodland Pro 3/8LP pitch chain on my small saw.  Very pleased.


----------



## SpaceBus (Apr 14, 2019)

TreePointer said:


> I like Stihl chain, but a couple years ago I tried Woodland Pro 3/8LP pitch chain on my small saw.  Very pleased.


This chain is tiny, way smaller than 3/8lp. I actually was given a 3/8lp chain by mistake by the new guy. It was corrected, but I should have checked before I left the store.


----------



## TreePointer (Apr 15, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> This chain is tiny, way smaller than 3/8lp. I actually was given a 3/8lp chain by mistake by the new guy. It was corrected, but I should have checked before I left the store.



When you sated "Picco" I just assumed it was the 3/8lp variety because that's what's on my 12" Stihl power pruner bar (D'oh!).  Stihl must have paired 1/4" pitch chain with that saw to keep it smooth for carvers and delicate pruning.

With that being the case, I don't have a recommendation as an alternative to Stihl chain because I don't run any saws in 1/4".  Woodland Pro doesn't seem to have a current offering in that pitch, but Oregon has two models:

25A - no guard link, good for carving

25AP - guard link


----------



## SpaceBus (Apr 15, 2019)

TreePointer said:


> When you sated "Picco" I just assumed it was the 3/8lp variety because that's what's on my 12" Stihl power pruner bar (D'oh!).  Stihl must have paired 1/4" pitch chain with that saw to keep it smooth for carvers and delicate pruning.
> 
> With that being the case, I don't have a recommendation as an alternative to Stihl chain because I don't run any saws in 1/4".  Woodland Pro doesn't seem to have a current offering in that pitch, but Oregon has two models:
> 
> ...



I'll have to read more about those chains. I have no idea what that means. I use this baby saw for limbing and pruning and it's a real treat.


----------



## TreePointer (Apr 16, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I'll have to read more about those chains. I have no idea what that means. I use this baby saw for limbing and pruning and it's a real treat.




*> > >*   See the three highlighted parts in the graphic below  *< < <*


A regular or "pro" chain will have drive links but no guard links.

Low-kickback chains (aka "safety" chains) often include specially shaped drive links called guard links.  Guard links have a protrusion that partially covers the depth gauge (raker) of each cutter link.  These don't perform as well as regular chains when carving or plunge/bore cutting.

Your Sthil 1/4" pitch chain should have guard links on every cutter link.


----------



## bholler (Apr 16, 2019)

TreePointer said:


> *> > >*   See the three highlighted parts in the graphic below  *< < <*
> 
> 
> A regular or "pro" chain will have drive links but no guard links.
> ...


They don't perform as well as regular chains in any way.  But they do reduce the chance of kickback


----------



## TreePointer (Apr 16, 2019)

bholler said:


> They don't perform as well as regular chains in any way.  But they do reduce the chance of kickback



I agree.  

I do find Stihl RS3 in 3/8 to be pretty good in its early life.  The smaller the pitch, the more a safety chain seems to disappoint.


----------



## bholler (Apr 16, 2019)

TreePointer said:


> I agree.
> 
> I do find Stihl RS3 in 3/8 to be pretty good in its early life.  The smaller the pitch, the more a safety chain seems to disappoint.


Yeah the one that came on my stihl isn't horrible unless I am cutting something really hard like hickory or rock oak.  I think I tossed it now but I am not sure


----------



## SpaceBus (Apr 16, 2019)

My 3/8 Husqvarna OEM and Oregon chains are both pro style full chisel round ground chains without any kind of guard. I didn't see any guards on my Stihl 150 with either OEM. 1/4 chain, but I can double check soon. Honestly, on that tiny saw, from what you guys are saying I wouldn't want them anyway.


----------



## salecker (Apr 16, 2019)

If you have a chain that is worth the effort like Stihl...
You can take an angle grinder to the guard links and remove them from use.Takes a few minutes,but after wards 
"It Will Cut"


----------



## TreePointer (Apr 16, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> My 3/8 Husqvarna OEM and Oregon chains are both pro style full chisel round ground chains without any kind of guard. I didn't see any guards on my Stihl 150 with either OEM. 1/4 chain, but I can double check soon. Honestly, on that tiny saw, from what you guys are saying I wouldn't want them anyway.



There are plenty of saw junkies around here, but I think most folks will never run precise comparison tests to realize any difference.  Either type of chain should serve a firewood cutter well.


----------



## spudman99 (Apr 17, 2019)

TreePointer said:


> There are plenty of saw junkies around here, but I think most folks will never run precise comparison tests to realize any difference.  Either type of chain should serve a firewood cutter well.



You sort of answered my question.  For the homeowner type here, who cuts maybe 2 cords a year, is there any advantage to a full chisel versus safety chain?  I mean how often/likely is a kickback and then with full PPE is that a significant worry.  I cut 2 flowering cherry trees this weekend and with a 32" trunk, my Stihl 251c labored pretty hard on a full depth cut (16" effective cutting bar length).  I always wondered if a full chisel would have saved me any appreciable time or effort as it took 15 min or so to cut the trunk around.


----------



## bholler (Apr 17, 2019)

spudman99 said:


> You sort of answered my question.  For the homeowner type here, who cuts maybe 2 cords a year, is there any advantage to a full chisel versus safety chain?  I mean how often/likely is a kickback and then with full PPE is that a significant worry.  I cut 2 flowering cherry trees this weekend and with a 32" trunk, my Stihl 251c labored pretty hard on a full depth cut (16" effective cutting bar length).  I always wondered if a full chisel would have saved me any appreciable time or effort as it took 15 min or so to cut the trunk around.


A kick back is always possible especially when someone isn't used to a saw.  And ppe is great but you can still get hurt especially from a kickback.  That is why all homeowner grade saws come with safety chains


----------



## TreePointer (Apr 17, 2019)

spudman99 said:


> You sort of answered my question.  For the homeowner type here, who cuts maybe 2 cords a year, is there any advantage to a full chisel versus safety chain?  I mean how often/likely is a kickback and then with full PPE is that a significant worry.  I cut 2 flowering cherry trees this weekend and with a 32" trunk, my Stihl 251c labored pretty hard on a full depth cut (16" effective cutting bar length).  I always wondered if a full chisel would have saved me any appreciable time or effort as it took 15 min or so to cut the trunk around.



While semi-chisel chain will feel less "grabby" than full chisel chain, the shape of the tooth does not determine whether the chain is low-kickback or "safety" chain.

Stihl examples:
RM   = seim-chisel, pro (yellow)
RM3 = semi-chisel, low-kickback (green)

RS   = full chisel, pro (yellow)
RS3 = full chisel, low-kickback (green)

Essentially, the most common feature I see that makes a chain low-kickback is the guard link, but you'll also see bumper tie straps (tie straps with a protrusion as seen on guard links).  These features reduce the amount of wood each cutter link "bites" when the chain traverses the kickback zone of the bar.  The kickback zone is the top quadrant of the bar tip.

The best reduction in kickback forces is achieved when using low-kickback chain with a low-kickback bar.  A low kickback bar has a smaller diameter at the bar tip.  This smaller diameter translates into a smaller kickback zone. 

TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION ON ADVANTAGES:

Low-kickback chains, regardless of tooth shape, don't plunge/bore cut very well.  I also find them more difficult to sharpen both when running a round file through and when using a flat file on the depth gauge.

TOOTH SHAPE:

As a separate issue, semi-chisel chain on average will cut a little slower than its full chisel analog.  On the other hand, semi-chisel chain often will keep its cutting efficacy longer between sharpening.  That's because once the sharp point of a full chisel chain is worn, it loses a lot of it's desired cutting characteristics.  For this reason, many sawyers find that semi-chisel chain seems to do better in "dirty" wood that tends to dull chains more quickly.


----------



## SpaceBus (Apr 17, 2019)

Reading this thread prompted me to do more research on chain maintenance as everything I knew was: make sure it has bar oil, flip the bar and file every two tanks with the guide, and take down the rakers occasionally. After learning about different sharpening products I settled on a Granberg File-N-Jig. This product has changed my life, every cut is effortless. It only takes a few minutes to sharpen a chain. Unless I'm not cutting at home, I think I'll just cut two tanks  sharpen and flip the bar rather than save up all my chains for one time. I also have been trying the Humboldt cut and have had some success. Both trees I used it on today fell where I wanted. I did use a winch for the first one, but I probably didn't need it.


----------



## spudman99 (Apr 18, 2019)

@TreePointer has convinced me.  The time and effort savings for a 40cc saw used sporadically is not worth the risks associated with a semi-chisel chain.  You are also correct that my Stihl bar has the nose slightly more narrow and I never knew why.  I wills stay with the green chains and continue to be careful.


----------



## SpaceBus (Apr 18, 2019)

I cut and fell trees frequently and appreciate the pro style full chisel on the 460. On my tiny Stihl 150 with 1/4" picco chain I like the added safety features as I'm really close to the work with the top handle and 12" bar.


----------



## TradEddie (Apr 20, 2019)

maple1 said:


> Stand at the end of the round and cut right through the round from the top side all the way to the ground. (If you have a 20" bar that will take the full length of the bar). That is noodling. If you had stood or pushed the round over on its cut face first and done the same thing that would be ripping.



I learned something new today! I always thought noodling referred to any lengthwise cut.
The way I see it now there are three ways to use a chainsaw to cut up a log that is resistant to splitting: 
1) Cut "cookies", in much the same way a saw would be used for cutting logs to size.
2)  Ripping: Placing the log vertically and cut downwards. Or bark on ground and cut horizontally, like milling.
3) Noodling: Placing the log with bark on the ground, stand at a round cut end, bar parallel to the bark and cut down to the other side.

The big question: assuming #1 is not ideal for loading a stove, is #2 or #3 less wear on the chain?

TE


----------



## SpaceBus (Apr 20, 2019)

TradEddie said:


> I learned something new today! I always thought noodling referred to any lengthwise cut.
> The way I see it now there are three ways to use a chainsaw to cut up a log that is resistant to splitting:
> 1) Cut "cookies", in much the same way a saw would be used for cutting logs to size.
> 2)  Ripping: Placing the log vertically and cut downwards. Or bark on ground and cut horizontally, like milling.
> ...



#3 is the least wear


----------



## TreePointer (Apr 20, 2019)

TradEddie said:


> I learned something new today! I always thought noodling referred to any lengthwise cut.
> The way I see it now there are three ways to use a chainsaw to cut up a log that is resistant to splitting:
> 1) Cut "cookies", in much the same way a saw would be used for cutting logs to size.
> 2)  Ripping: Placing the log vertically and cut downwards. Or bark on ground and cut horizontally, like milling.
> ...



Let's simplify:
1. Bucking = crosscut a log to make cylindrical rounds
2. Ripping = cut a round from butt end to butt end
3. Noodling = cut a round from bark to bark

Note:  A cookie is simply a very short cylinder.


----------

