# Pump size



## Huskurdu (Aug 21, 2008)

I apologize up front...but I'm probably going to be asking a ton of questions.  I just got a quote to install my Econoburn 150 into my existing gas boiler loop and almost swallowed my tongue!  I already bought the wood boiler, the two 1" pex lines are buried and it's too late now to quit.  Can anyone give me a clue which pump they would suggest?  It's got a Taco 007 on it now and obviously it's too small.??  The grade from the Econoburn to the gas boiler is about a 6-7 foot drop.  The length is ~115 feet each way using Wirsbo 1" pex tubing.  I insulated the pex with regular pipe insulation (taping the joints) then fed it through 3" pvc, then wrapped it in foil covered insulation (about 1/4 inch thick) then wrapped the whole mess with plastic (bunk silo blanket to be exact).  I only used 45 degree bends for the pvc and there are 8 of them in each line.  The existing gas boiler is a 90,000 btu unit @ about 80 percent efficient.  That seemed important when the guy was figuring the pump size.  Of course he won't share that info with me!  Let me hear what you think.


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## pybyr (Aug 21, 2008)

I don't have the background to help you size the pump but others here will; here's something that I hope might shed some light-

The Taco 007 that is on it might be the "return water protection" bypass pump, as Econoburn sends one of those exact types with each unit- I recall that you bought yours used, and I don't know if the prior owner had that plumbed in as Econoburn recommends, etc.  

If this is all sounding new, I could photograph and e-mail you Econoburn's recommended diagram on that "protection pumping" layout

Also, don't hesitate to call Econoburn- from what I have found so far, their tech support is great, as long as your patient a bit with the fact that they're _really_ busy.

Even though you bought the unit second hand, I bet Econburn will be willing to work with you in the interest of a happy ending.


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## Huskurdu (Aug 21, 2008)

pybyr said:
			
		

> I don't have the background to help you size the pump but others here will; here's something that I hope might shed some light-
> 
> The Taco 007 that is on it might be the "return water protection" bypass pump, as Econoburn sends one of those exact types with each unit- I recall that you bought yours used, and I don't know if the prior owner had that plumbed in as Econoburn recommends, etc.
> 
> ...



This is 'sounding new'....could you please forward anything you have on this?  Any help would be appreciated.


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## pybyr (Aug 22, 2008)

Huskurdu- I haven't been ignoring you, but life has been zany... first look at this thread, which explains how Econoburn's implementation uses two pumps, one between the boiler and load, and the other in a "nearby loop with the boiler" (and no load) to make sure that the boiler comes up to temperature quickly, and does not fall below proper temperature.  

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/20980/

Failure to achieve that protection will result in serious ineffciency, creosote buildup, and in the long run, corrosion of the boiler.

Some of the Euro designs use fancy mix valves instead of pumps, but the Taco 007 you find yourself inheriting with Dale Q's boiler is almost certainly the one that Econoburn shipped with the boiler, intended to be used for that "nearby loop" for protection.

I am going to try to separately e-mail you the newest version of the Econoburn manual (which may not yet be in print or shipped with the boilers, but was e-mailed to me by Mark Odell, VP at Econoburn) which shows the diagram of how these two circulators are routed.  It is a huge file, so I do not know if technology will cooperate; if not, I will try to excerpt and scan the one page with the diagram I'm talking about.  The diagram is on printed page # 10, which in the adobe digital version, comes out as page 13

None of this answers your original question about pump sizing, but all of it is important to get right.  The Taco 007 is probably unlikely to work for your main loop on the distance/ diameter your are talking about, but it is very important to rig the overall system right.

attempt with e-mail of newest Econoburn operating manual to follow in just a minute-let me know if you get the message and the attachment


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## Huskurdu (Aug 22, 2008)

pybyr said:
			
		

> Huskurdu- I haven't been ignoring you, but life has been zany... first look at this thread, which explains how Econoburn's implementation uses two pumps, one between the boiler and load, and the other in a "nearby loop with the boiler" (and no load) to make sure that the boiler comes up to temperature quickly, and does not fall below proper temperature.
> 
> https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/20980/
> 
> ...



Thank you very much for the info again....I've spoken with Hank and the Taco 007 _is_ for the protection loop as you eluded to.  I will still have to nail down what size pump for the main loop (and figure out how to trigger it on/off, but that's minor).  I'm glad I asked the question....I could have really messed up big time!  So I'm going to use the Taco 007 for the protection loop, an unknown pump for the main loop to my gas boiler return line.  I've got another short loop (gravity flow on power out) going to a huge radiator for power-out protection with a normally open zone valve with thermostat (should be able to use this for heat in the garage as well as power-out protection).  The radiator will be slightly higher than the wood boiler and the lines will be routed uphill to it with no 'dips' to allow for thermal flow...at least that is what I was told to do.  Sound logical?


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## pybyr (Aug 22, 2008)

your dump zone idea sounds interesting, but how will you support the weight of a huge radiator high enough to be above the boiler- the iron is bad enough before you even fill it with water...


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## Huskurdu (Aug 22, 2008)

pybyr said:
			
		

> your dump zone idea sounds interesting, but how will you support the weight of a huge radiator high enough to be above the boiler- the iron is bad enough before you even fill it with water...



I'm going to park my truck beside the boiler and put the radiator on top of it.      No, I was just going to build a shelf suported from the wall and 2x4 legs to the floor. The bottom of it will be about 4 1/2' to 5' off the floor.  This will get it as close to the ceiling as possible.  The radiator is about 4' long by 3' high (give or take)....it shouldn't be too bad.


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## heaterman (Aug 22, 2008)

Here's some assumptions and numbers

Assumptions:
230' round trip, 20' of 1-1/4" copper tubing for near boiler piping, 6 1-1/4" 90* ells, dumping into your boiler loop via primary/secondary tees (2), with 4 1" 90's in the house.
 90,000 btu boiler @ 80% eff = 72,000 btu heat load
72,000 btu delivered at a 20* temp drop supply to return = a bit over 7GPM required

GPM numbers for various circs @ those design parameters

B&G;NRF22 = 5.9
Grundfos 15-58FC speed 3 = 6.4
Grundfos 26-64 = 8.1
Taco 007IFC = 5.1
Taco 0010IFC = 5.4

'atsabout all I can do from here.

Note: You will need to use an IFC circ or else install a flo check of some kind to prevent flow in the heating side of things when the bypass circ is running.


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## Huskurdu (Aug 22, 2008)

heaterman said:
			
		

> Here's some assumptions and numbers
> 
> Assumptions:
> 230' round trip, 20' of 1-1/4" copper tubing for near boiler piping, 6 1-1/4" 90* ells, dumping into your boiler loop via primary/secondary tees (2), with 4 1" 90's in the house.
> ...



I will be shopping Ebay for the pumps you've suggested.  I'll use this as a guide.  Your info is awesome!  Thank you.


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## heaterman (Aug 22, 2008)

Huskurdu said:
			
		

> heaterman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Are my assumptions about your piping anywhere close to what you actually have? With that amount of 1" tube in play, just a few more fittings in the house or by the boiler can make a large difference in the flow rate.


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## Huskurdu (Aug 22, 2008)

heaterman said:
			
		

> Huskurdu said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well...I'm still battling through a map of the system....but the 1" pex will tie directly into the 1-1/4 copper return line of the gas boiler...so that will give me 2 tees in the house.  There will be a valve on both pex lines where they meet as well as a valve on the 1-1/4" copper line between where the pex lines intersect.  This will give me flexibility later, so I'm told.  On the wood boiler close loop I guess I'm using 1-1/4 copper with the Taco 007 that came with the unit.  I'll also be using 1-1/4 copper for the power-out loop through a large house radiator.  The main loop that the pump-in-question will be attached to all 1" pex with 2 tees to make the loop turns.  Hank @ Econoburn said that a Taco 007 would not do it, but I don't think he has all the data that you have.  I'm in the process of mapping the system with pencil and paper.  I could try to scan and post what I have if that would help.  It is still somewhat incomplete though.


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Aug 23, 2008)

If the heat is going from the Econoburn to the gas boiler, the piping needs to flow 150kbtuh.

At a 20-degree drop, that works out to 15gpm.

1" pex will be too small for that amount of flow, without exceeding the maximum flow velocity.

Aside from that, the head loss on just the pex run, without even including piping at each end, would be over 55 feet (almost 24psi), and a pump delivering that will be very expensive (ie, commercial size).

Going to 1-1/4" pex would help, but realistically you should run 1-1/2" pex for that sort of distance with that many gallons per minute.

40mm Uponor (Wirsbo's new name) pex would have a 8.4ft head loss at that run, so a Grundfos UPS26-99FC would give you adequate flow and head pressure to run.  On speed 2, it would produce about 14 feet of head at 15gpm, so you would have some extra to handle the near-boiler piping.  And you would have speed 3 on the switch if the piping ended up being too restrictive, or if you added glycol to the system (glycol is thicker than water, so the head loss goes up).

A Wilos Stratos variable-speed pump would also be an option, but they are expensive.

Joe


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## heaterman (Aug 23, 2008)

Joe

What did I miss? Where did the 150K come from?


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Aug 23, 2008)

heaterman said:
			
		

> What did I miss? Where did the 150K come from?



If I'm reading this correctly, he has the Econoburn (a 150k unit) at the end of the pex lines, sending heat towards the gas boiler (which is the 90k unit).

I also just noticed that he says the 1" pex lines are already buried, which is a bit of an issue.  Digging it up and putting in the right size line, or a second line (1" or 1-1/4") in parallel would be the best option.

I hate having to tell folks that something like a buried line is sized incorrectly, and they will have to do something like dig it up.

The other options would be:
-add storage (near the Econoburn, not in the house near the gas boiler) now, so that the buried line only needs to carry 80 or 90 kbtuh.  That adds to the install cost, but I think that it's the best solution in the long run.
-put in a very large pump, which will be expensive to install, and expensive to operate.
-put in a very large dump zone at the boiler end (capable of absorbing 60kbtuh or so), and under-load the boiler until such time as storage is installed (again, the storage tank would need to be at the wood boiler end of the pipe).  That would probably be the cheapest solution (in terms of what you pay right now), although it would require that the user be very careful not to load the boiler to more than 1/2 or 2/3 capacity.

So, I think those are the 4 most practical options...

Joe


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## mikeyny (Aug 23, 2008)

I have 2   007's  on the return side of my setup.. There is one for upstairs and one for down. 2 inch pipe come in from the garage 80 feet away 12 ft. down hill.  Pipe is connected to bypass gas boiler as needed. Check valves and  relief valves also. Pumps were aquired used. One is of the old style, (no cartridge). My system, an 82 tarm multifuel 110,000 btu heats the 3000, st ft house most of the time. 12 full cords per season incl. dhw. It may not be quite properly engineered but it woks great. Those 007's are real work horse's. I do strongly suggest you go with the advice of the engineers. My system was built mostly of  free or almost free stuff. 
                                         Mike


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## heaterman (Aug 24, 2008)

"I hate having to tell folks that something like a buried line is sized incorrectly, and they will have to do something like dig it up. "

Been there done that. It seems as though most of the places that sell OWB's think that 1" is the only size tube in existence. One of the guys working for the insulating company I use told me they did a 1" line set that was a bit over 500' a couple weeks ago. The lines ran from the largest CB made to a 12,000 sq ft pole barn and then to the guys house. I just get speechless when I hear stuff like that. Do these people have no brain or do they not care? That load has to be a minimum of 30GPM..............and by some kind of magic they think they are going to ram it through 500' of 1" pex? Un flippin' believeable!

I see where you're coming from on the 150K. I was looking at it from the load side of the equation, thinking about what he actually needed to get enough heat to the house. The situation he described would definitely be better served with some storage to dump the full output of the E-150 into but 1" pex will probably carry the load of his house alone.


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## Huskurdu (Aug 24, 2008)

I cannot believe that the 'local' installer would sell me the 1" pex line and be ready to hook it up for me if he didn't think it would work.....but on the other hand you never know.  Let me clear up some things.  My existing gas boiler is ~90 kbtu @ 80 percent efficiency is about 72 kbtu that I require for the house and domestic hot water.  I will be putting the Econoburn 150 in the garage to supply that 72 kbtu.  If there is extra available heat then I will use that in the garage.  It looks like I could extend the primary loop about 20' with 1-1/4" copper inside the garage and reduce my secondary loop by that much taking the 1" pex length down to about 85-90 feet one way.  That is, if that doesn't make my main loop (protection loop?) too large.  There is no way I'm digging up that pex now.  I just finished the job.  I need other alternatives.  PLEASE.


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## Willman (Aug 24, 2008)

Numbers and engineering don't lie. You have two well respected pros weighing in on your unfortunate situation. I would heed what they have to say, as sad as it is. Maybe dig down and bury another line set on top of the others and then insulate. a lot of work I'm sure but you would want to be able to utilize all the btu's available from your unit.

Will


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## Huskurdu (Aug 25, 2008)

Willman said:
			
		

> Numbers and engineering don't lie. You have two well respected pros weighing in on your unfortunate situation. I would heed what they have to say, as sad as it is. Maybe dig down and bury another line set on top of the others and then insulate. a lot of work I'm sure but you would want to be able to utilize all the btu's available from your unit.
> 
> Will



Again, I don't need to transfer 150 kbtu through the 1" pex..... I need 72kbtu max.  Still a problem?


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## pybyr (Aug 25, 2008)

Huskurdu said:
			
		

> I cannot believe that the 'local' installer would sell me the 1" pex line and be ready to hook it up for me if he didn't think it would work.....but on the other hand you never know.  Let me clear up some things.  My existing gas boiler is ~90 kbtu @ 80 percent efficiency is about 72 kbtu that I require for the house and domestic hot water.  I will be putting the Econoburn 150 in the garage to supply that 72 kbtu.  If there is extra available heat then I will use that in the garage.  It looks like I could extend the primary loop about 20' with 1-1/4" copper inside the garage and reduce my secondary loop by that much taking the 1" pex length down to about 85-90 feet one way.  That is, if that doesn't make my main loop (protection loop?) too large.  There is no way I'm digging up that pex now.  I just finished the job.  I need other alternatives.  PLEASE.



I DON'T wan't to seem like I am trying to second-guess the "Pros"- 'cause I am not (yet).... one of those-  but it seems from everything that I have researched for my own install like the two "limiting factors" for pipe diameter are two  totally differennt factors:  (1) high velocity of water flow through relatively small pipe diameter = high probability of noise from the high-velocity flow, which is kinda irrelevant  when you are considering underground; and (2) risk of erosion corrosion/failure of plumbing  & fittings from high velocity/ high-temp flows.   

All I've read seems to suggest that 4 FPS is the top for noise avoidance (irrelevant when buried), and that somewhere around 8-12 FPS is the upper limit for avoiding erosion corrosion.  It seems like you or one of the "pros" on here needs to figure whether you can move the FPS/ GPM/ BTUs to move the needed heat without risking blowing out your fittings at the boiler, underground, or in your celllar.  PEX (of any diameter) without fittings  (if you have avoided in-line fittings) in-line seems a lot less likely to have erosion corrosion issues- so it all seems like a matter of the BTUs you are able to move without blowing out your pipe fittings, and at an operating cost (pump size to move those BTUs and GPMs) that you can live with


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## Huskurdu (Aug 25, 2008)

I understood a small part of what you said ....    Here is what I 'think' I know.  The primary loop is going to be the loop that comes out of, and goes into, the wood boiler.  It is created solely for the purpose of getting the boiler up to temp quickly and creating a 'mix' of hot and cold to the boiler when the secondary loop is running.  It should be about 20' of 1-1/4" copper ideally.  There is a secondary loop that comes from the primary loop and ties in to the return side of my gas boiler in my basement @ the return side of the gas boiler.  There is also a pretection loop (power-out loop) also that is going to be created from 1-1/4" copper also, but that doesn't seem to be in question at this time.  
The supply side (hot side) of the primary loop will feed the 'hot' side of the secondary loop via a tee and the secondary loop cold side (return side) will feed the primary loop via a tee also.  So one leg of the primary loop will also be the turnaround leg for the secondary loop when it's running.  As I stated, I could extend the primary loop about 20' to shorten the secondary loop if needed.
Sorry for the simplistic terms.....hard to explain with text.....
I'd love to push this problem off to a installer, but with a quote of $2300 I'm hoping that I could save a considerable amount of labor dollars by doing everything I can myself.  I'm also hoping to save some money on parts also thanks to the internet.  I hope you understand.


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## pybyr (Aug 25, 2008)

Husrkurdu- (you must be a Bob Mould fan or something, but that's a another OT topic)

unless you can get a really good pro to help you, and I am not yet one of those, here's how it goes--

water will gain about 8.34 BTU per gallon per degree in temperature increase

"feasible" gallons per minute of water of the selected pump capacity and friction losses in your pipe [already installed] will determine how many BTUs you can move per minute or hour through the pipe you have installed already

Gallons per minute to move a given amount of BTUs per hour will let you figure out the flow of water in feet-per-second.

Usual "assumed" gain at a boiler or drop in a hydronic load is 20 degrees. although that is not set in stone; you [supposedlt, according to people who know a lot more than me] can bump that up to 25 or 30 ( allowing more heat to move through smaller tubing) if you design it all appropriately)

you DO need to keep feet-per-second (FPS) of water movement above 2- and preferably not too far above about 8-12, especially if you have metallic fittings in the flow path (4 is the safe limit for noise avoidance, and, above 8-12 FPS, you're risking wearing away and blowing out the fittings on your PEX)(upper acceptable FPS limits are _seriously_ fuzzy and unclear on this).

from there, follow the math (and get ahold of the textbooks from people like John Siegenthaler and/ or Dan Holohan) to figure whether you can move the needed BTUs' hour with reasonable thermal and electrical efficiency (how much power you'll burn to move enough BTUs with a big circulator through a small pipe).

OR call Econoburn's tech line and try to talk to Dan Goede and/ or Mark Odell.  They are EXCELLENT, experienced and customer-oriented people who want you to succeed, probably not the least of which reasons being that you are the second owner of a Boiler (Dale Q's) that was a non-success the first time around (and which I almost bought and looked into carefully) (and which was a non-success mostly not due to anything on Econoburn's part, but because the fellow who you bought it from wanted wishful thinking to turn it into something (like an OWB that had inherent built-in water/heat storage) that it never was and never could be)


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## kabbott (Aug 25, 2008)

72k is possible for 1 inch at 115 feet each way even with a small pump such as a taco 00R or 009, but just barely and not counting any other fittings.
Sounds like you could shorten the 1 inch run inside your garage and that would help.
A storage tank in garage would help keep boiler from idling and someone on the forum, cant recall the name, has a storage tank with part uninsulated to heat
garage.

As stated their are some great people here who really no their "stuff" and I will let them handle the specifics but I Think you will be fine with your already buried
line.


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## Huskurdu (Aug 25, 2008)

kabbott said:
			
		

> 72k is possible for 1 inch at 115 feet each way even with a small pump such as a taco 00R or 009, but just barely and not counting any other fittings.
> Sounds like you could shorten the 1 inch run inside your garage and that would help.
> A storage tank in garage would help keep boiler from idling and someone on the forum, cant recall the name, has a storage tank with part uninsulated to heat
> garage.
> ...



I hope you're right!!   I'm now hoping that by extending the primary loop I don't screw up the operation of the boiler.  I've only got the two tees on each end for restrictions and the pex itself has no other joints in it.  I hope to keep the boiler at full capacity all the time because I will have another loop heating the garage.  But if the secondary loop to the house is not pulling the heat fast enough then i'm still stuck.  I saw that thread that you are talking about on the storage tank and I would rather spend another $1000 putting in a heat storage tank rather than spending another $1000 on the pex run again  You know what I mean????


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## Huskurdu (Aug 25, 2008)

Just found this on Ebay.....

"The 009 circulator is designed for use in hot water heating systems and is used in circulating zones in the floor heat and baseboard.  Maximum load: 150' of run at 8' of lift with 1" I.D. water line.TP009 Taco 009 Circulating pump (110 volt)"   

If I was to reduce the 'lift' to say 4' and my total run to 180' would that make a difference?  Or do the specs above only apply on a non-loop system?  Also, what happens to the pump if you exceed the recommended run?  Does the pump fail?


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## Redox (Aug 25, 2008)

I have done remedial engineering for a number of years on large commercial buildings and have run into lots of design errors in my day.  Cooling airflow issues always stand out as particular problems, but heating water issues rarely come up unless you are having a problem making capacity.  Assuming that the house has an adequate system already installed and you are only able to move half the design flow of the boiler, the temperature difference will be double, but the heat will still get through to the end of the pipe.  A 40 degree delta isn't efficient, but neither is an oversized pump that erodes your fittings whenever the system is in operation.

A storage tank would be my first suggestion, but having an oversized multispeed pump should allow you to slow it down in mild weather and keep the erosion manageable.  I would also suggest a Spirovent in the system to catch any "microbubbles".  Since you seem to be pushing the limits of what a residential circulator can do, it might be time to look at a commercial circulator.  These can be had with a 3 phase motor that can be run off a speed drive for infinitely variable flow and maintain excellent energy efficiency at reduced speeds.  It isn't a cheap option, but might solve most of the problem.

Chris


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## Huskurdu (Aug 25, 2008)

I'm debating whether to pay the local installer his astranomical quote to install my boiler with the pex that's too small with a warranty or to remove what I've done and throw away $1000 worth or pex, pvc and insulation.  So, what size tubing should I have used and where would I get it?  I don't see many options for tubing over 1" w/02 barrier anywhere.  The one place I spoke to in California said that the 1-1/4" pex was twice as much as the 1" and didn't come with the 02 barrier and the tool was $950 to install it.  Seemed a little extreme to me.  Looks like no matter what I do I'll have to borrow a lot more money to finish the job.  :-(


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## heaterman (Aug 25, 2008)

Husker

If your load is actually 72,000 (the output of the boiler) and
If you do all you can in the garage and the house to reduce head (IE 1-1/4" with as few fittings as possible)

My gut feeling is that you'll be all right.

The main reason being that I have rarely seen any boiler firing 100% of the time at it's full output. This means of course that your actual load is less than the boiler is capable of. Have you ever noticed the boiler in your house firing continuously when it's really cold? I doubt it.

The caveat here is that the system flow in your house with all zones running is probably higher than the flow you are going to get from the Econburn loop. This will cause your  boiler to fire even when the wood boiler is running unless you turn the aquastat way down and run the Econoburn at 190*.

It's not an ideal situation but I don't think you're in the category of digging it up .


Rules of thumb for copper sized piping

3/4" = 40,000 btu
1" = 80,000 btu
1-1/4" 140,000 btu
1-1/2" 250,000 btu


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## in hot water (Aug 25, 2008)

Stick with the 1".  I don't know how you calculated the design load. most, if not all heat load calcs have some fudge factor.

Years ago at the RPA we compared 6 different heat load programs, from radiant manufacturers,  and noticed a 20% spread.  All seemed to error on the high side.

Also your 72K load is on design day.  How many days are you at design temperature?  ASHRAE has a spec for showing how often a city is at or below design.  

Worse case at design or below design you may slip a few degrees, the heat doesn't just go away.  if you have some mass or radiant, it may flywheel through those days, also.

hr


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Aug 25, 2008)

Huskurdu said:
			
		

> I'm debating whether to pay the local installer his astranomical quote to install my boiler with the pex that's too small with a warranty or to remove what I've done and throw away $1000 worth or pex, pvc and insulation.  So, what size tubing should I have used and where would I get it?  I don't see many options for tubing over 1" w/02 barrier anywhere.  The one place I spoke to in California said that the 1-1/4" pex was twice as much as the 1" and didn't come with the 02 barrier and the tool was $950 to install it.  Seemed a little extreme to me.  Looks like no matter what I do I'll have to borrow a lot more money to finish the job.  :-(



That's why I suggested putting the storage tank in the garage, instead of the house.

From the boiler to the tank, you need to transfer the full 150kbtuh.

From the tank to the house, you only need to transfer a max of 72kbtuh, according to your heat load.  The 1" will do that, fine, since that's roughly half the flow of the full boiler output.

Joe


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## Huskurdu (Aug 25, 2008)

Here is what I am going to do.  I will let you know if it works out.
I am going to 'upsize' my primary loop and my gas boiler return line where the secondary loop comes into them.  This should 'slightly' reduce the 'head' restriction.....or whatever you call it.  I'm going to put in 1-1/2" copper in these spots only.  I'll also have to put in the appropriate 1-1/2" valves to go along with that.
I'm going to us the Taco 009 pump 'probably' unless the guys at Econoburn tell me not to.  It's reasonably prices on Ebay ~200.00 and it seems to be a popular pump that will do the job.
I'm going to reduce that size of the secondary loop as much as possible to also reduce the restriction as much as possible.  I'm also going to mount the pump low in the garage and connect it the return pipe on the gas boiler as high as possible in the basement of the house.  It's gonna be darn close.  If it just can't keep up this winter then I'll have to dig it up and replace with 1-1/4" pex, but I'm betting on this working.  I'll be spending a bit more on copper and related valves,etc...but I think it will pay off in the end.
I appreciate everyone's input and will appreciate any future input also.


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## jpowell1979 (Aug 25, 2008)

You need a Taco 0011 pump.

I have a Greenwood 100 with 180' of 1" pex and it works great with plenty to spare. 

Here is the math. 1"PEX is .06' per foot of head loss.

238 x .06' = 14.2' pf head loss.

Because you have a closed loop there is no head loss for the elevation, just frictional losses. The Taco 0011 will flow 18GPM at 15' of head. http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/00CurveChart.pdf

You can transfer heat at roughly 10,000 BTU per 1 GPM so this would put you right around the 150,000 BTU mark. I got mine of ebay for way less than the local supply store.


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## Huskurdu (Aug 26, 2008)

AlaskaWoodburner said:
			
		

> You need a Taco 0011 pump.
> 
> I have a Greenwood 100 with 180' of 1" pex and it works great with plenty to spare.
> 
> ...



I see it's got a much better flow than the 009.  I'm pricing them now.

Does anyone know what I could use for a zone valve that will open when the power fails?  I would like to use it on my Power-out loop that runs through a radiator.  I'd like to put a thermostat on it to heat my garage, but if the power fails I'd like it to open so that it will gravity flow (or whatever you call it when the hot water rises and the cold runs back to the boiler).


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## Huskurdu (Aug 26, 2008)

Sorry, just to be clear....the zone valve that I need needs to open when power goes out.


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## pybyr (Aug 26, 2008)

Huskurdu said:
			
		

> Sorry, just to be clear....the zone valve that I need needs to open when power goes out.



Google automag + valve

then you will also need to make sure your dump load is installed so that it can circulate by gravity (which basically means it needs to be above the boiler), forget if you have mentioned that on here yet


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## heaterman (Aug 26, 2008)

AlaskaWoodburner said:
			
		

> You need a Taco 0011 pump.
> 
> I have a Greenwood 100 with 180' of 1" pex and it works great with plenty to spare.
> 
> ...



.06 ft of head at what GPM flow rate?  

Here's a bit of knowledge on Hi velocity circs like the 009 and 0011 or Grundfos 26-99 etc..  Any circulator needs a certain amount of pressure on the inlet of the impeller. Typically, the higher the head on the outlet side, the higher the inlet pressure needed to avoid cavitation and what I call "fried pump syndrome".
On a sealed system such as Econoburn, this is not an issue because you have 12-15PSI static fill pressure with which to keep the suction side flooded. 
Such is not the case with an OWB because they are an open non pressurized system. When you have a static pressure of only 2-3PSI available on a circ that needs 3-4, the circ will not live a long and happy life. I have crates full of high head circs that smoked because of tubing that was too small creating the need for a high head circ. Nearly all of them are from OWB installations that used in excess of 100' runs requiring more than 6 GPM.
It's always better to do it right the first time. The fact that 1" tube is what "everybody" sells and uses, plus being less expensive than 1-1/4", doesn't mean it's the right stuff to bury on your job.  A 15-58 will use about 100 watts of electricity. A 0011 will soak up 250+. Both of them will do this forever. Add it up over 5 years. Now factor in replacing a $200 circ instead of a $75 model at least once during that time period ........

I better quit. I feel a rant coming on.


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## Redox (Aug 26, 2008)

Easy there, H M.  You can only do so much...

"Fried pump syndrome" can be avoided by checking the NPSH (net positive suction head) line on the pump curve.  In most small circulators, it isn't a concern, but the larger they are, the worse the problem can be.  I have seen degreed engineers screw this up so many times, I can't count.  The problem is particularly acute with cooling tower loops (gravity application) where the pump is placed some distance horizontally away from the tower.  Sometimes it is so bad that the pump will pull a vacuum and the cavitation is audible.  Add a little crap in the strainer and these pumps end up eroding their impellers in short order.  It happens all the time!

Chris


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## heaterman (Aug 26, 2008)

Redox said:
			
		

> Easy there, H M.  You can only do so much...
> 
> "Fried pump syndrome" can be avoided by checking the NPSH (net positive suction head) line on the pump curve.  In most small circulators, it isn't a concern, but the larger they are, the worse the problem can be.  I have seen degreed engineers screw this up so many times, I can't count.  The problem is particularly acute with cooling tower loops (gravity application) where the pump is placed some distance horizontally away from the tower.  Sometimes it is so bad that the pump will pull a vacuum and the cavitation is audible.  Add a little crap in the strainer and these pumps end up eroding their impellers in short order.  It happens all the time!
> 
> Chris



On the subject of engineers. I had a booth at a local steam and old tractor show a couple weeks ago. A guy came past inquiring about the product and during the course of the conversation he revealed that he was a civil engineer. Long story short, he was looking at an OWB which as typical has the supply on the bottom and the return on the top. The unit was clearly marked as such. He was sharp enough to see that the hottest water was going to be at the top of the water jacket but then went on to say that he was going to pull his supply off the top and simply mount the circ lower on the pipe. I told him that the head would be the same as taking the supply out the bottom UNTIL the circ came on at which point he would have only the "head" over the actual tapping in the water jacket. He didn't get it and argued amiably with me for about 10 minutes before leaving. He'll find out if he does it.


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## Redox (Aug 26, 2008)

"Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a greased pig; after a while, you will learn that the pig likes it" - unknown    

Chris


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## kabbott (Aug 26, 2008)

AlaskaWoodburner said:
			
		

> You need a Taco 0011 pump.
> 
> I have a Greenwood 100 with 180' of 1" pex and it works great with plenty to spare.
> 
> ...



Hmmmm?
Just so where all on the same page here
This is a pressurized system?
He only needs to transfer 72kbtu's correct?
so lets say 7 GPM
At 7 GPM 1 inch pex has a drop of 3.2 psi or (3.2 x 2.31=7.39) 7.39 feet of head per 100 feet. 7.39 per 100 x 230 feet =  17 feet(7.39 x2.3=17).
17 feet of head, 009 ifc does about 6.5 gpm at 17 feet head non ifc slightly more.
If he can shorten the 1 inch to 180 feet or so round trip it seems doable to me.

Are the numbers way off base?Maybe I need to go back to the books.
Not trying to argue just trying to help the fellow out and learn.


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## heaterman (Aug 26, 2008)

If it were mine, I'd buy a 15-58 Grunt and try it before I went to a Hi-V circ. I'll bet that he'll get enough flow to take care of the load even with the longish runs of 1".  Remember that an engineers first priority is to cover his a$$. Being that engineers came up with the design program I use and also developed the pump curves and specs listed in the manuals............you get where I'm going?


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## Nofossil (Aug 26, 2008)

Any engineer worth his salt keeps a safety factor hidden anywhere that he can. If it's overdesigned no one will ever know, and someone else will pay for it. If it's underdesigned, everyone will know and he'll pay for it.

That's why my personal challenge is to do this gasification / storage / solar thing as cheaply as possible. Cost has a way of exposing unnecessary overdesign.


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## Huskurdu (Aug 26, 2008)

I'm all for cheaper, but do I have a 'second' on the 15-58 Grundfos?  At $93 vs $200-$300 it has brightened my day.  Also a max of 87 watts at the highest speed vs over 200 watts
I'm a moron.....we've established that.....  lol      Please get to the meat and potatoes will ya'!!??  I haven't bought a pump yet so I'm still very open-minded on this....let me know what everyone thinks.  Besides the more you guys 'discuss' the more I learn.  I'm funny that way.


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Aug 27, 2008)

Huskurdu said:
			
		

> I'm all for cheaper, but do I have a 'second' on the 15-58 Grundfos?  At $93 vs $200-$300 it has brightened my day.  Also a max of 87 watts at the highest speed vs over 200 watts
> I'm a moron.....we've established that.....  lol      Please get to the meat and potatoes will ya'!!??  I haven't bought a pump yet so I'm still very open-minded on this....let me know what everyone thinks.  Besides the more you guys 'discuss' the more I learn.  I'm funny that way.



The 15-58 would flow your house load.  It won't flow the full output of the boiler.

You need to under-fire the boiler (not load it fully), and should talk to Econoburn directly about the best way to adjust your boiler to operate at a lower output.

Doing storage now would solve the issue the right way, up front.  Of course, there is the cost issue on that.

A large dump zone (eventually, this can become your garage heating zone) would take care of things if you accidentally put too much wood in it.  That's probably the best balance between cost-effectiveness and long-term reliability.

Joe


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## Huskurdu (Aug 27, 2008)

I'm only expecting this pump to push the 72k (give or take) to the house.  The balance of the output of the boiler will be pushed through a heat exchanger for the garage out the other side of the primary loop.  This pump will not impact the heat flow in the garage (not directly anyway).  As stated before why spend the extra money on the much larger pump if it's not needed.  I found a 15-58 Grundfos on Ebay for about $60.00.....it seems worth the risk to me.  Thanks for the input.


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## heaterman (Aug 27, 2008)

Huskurdu said:
			
		

> I'm only expecting this pump to push the 72k (give or take) to the house.  The balance of the output of the boiler will be pushed through a heat exchanger for the garage out the other side of the primary loop.  This pump will not impact the heat flow in the garage (not directly anyway).  As stated before why spend the extra money on the much larger pump if it's not needed.  I found a 15-58 Grundfos on Ebay for about $60.00.....it seems worth the risk to me.  Thanks for the input.



#1 Make sure the circ is a 15-58FC with the flow check built in or else plan on adding one in your piping.

#2.  I would kindly ask you and everyone else here who may be in the process of sourcing system components to consider buying your stuff from a bona fide heating contractor or a plumbing and heating supply house. I spend a fair amount of time here just because I like to help people out and I have the knowledge and tools to do it.  Chances are the place selling the 15-58 for $60 wouldn't know which end is the goesinta and which end is the goesouta. People in my area support me and I appreciate it very much. My business profit is what enables me to buy computers and programs such as the one I used to calculate your flow and head. I know that Joe and nearly any other contractor here would say the same.  I'm not crying in my beer or whining about the internet sales thing by any means. I've bought and sold probably $10K worth of product in the last 3 business days via the net. Just asking you all to remember the local guy who will have a replacement circ or part when you need it some Saturday night or Holiday weekend.


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## Huskurdu (Aug 27, 2008)

#2, point well taken. I appreciate your cander.


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## gradwell (Aug 28, 2008)

After reading this thread I too have now become concerned as I also was told to run 1" from outbuilding to house 160 ft. each way, 320 roundtrip. I fortunately have not yet installed underground so can still correct.

In all of my Newbie no idea what I'm doing wisdom, can anybody give me advice as to pipe and pump sizing for my situation? My heat load total is 108,000 BTU/h. 24,000 BTU/h will remain in the outbuilding leaving me 84,000 BTU/hr to pump 160 ft. to the house which is elevated about 6ft. above outbuilding. The Pex run is a straight shot with 90' s at both ends to get into the buildings. No splices or fittings.

I have the ability to run upto two lines in each direction. I do have about 500 ft. of 3/4" O2 barrier laying around and thought maybe a 1" and a 3/4" each way may do the trick. What do you think and what size pump should I use?

I don't know what other info you may need to help me with this, but please let me know and I will suppy. 

Thank you guys for your help.

Joe


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## Willman (Aug 29, 2008)

Joe, check out the link in this thread by heaterman.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/22206/


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## MrEd (Sep 2, 2008)

I am getting to this thread late, so pardon my ignorance.

Everyone seems to be talking about only the distance from the OWB to the inside boiler, isn't it also necessary to figure out how much piping is in the house? and how would you do that? I have six zones in my 3000sf house, all mostly 3/4 or 1" copper, and 80% of the piping is all in the walls or otherwise inaccessible. How could one possible add up all the lengths, T's and elbows to figure out the required pump size? Yes, you can accurately add up the new run, but that only seems to be 1/2 or even just 1/3 of the problem...

My current boiler has one large circ, and zone vales. I figure new pump needs to be at least that big because if only the wood boiler is running, then the new circ needs to do all the work of the old circ, plus the added distance from tarm to the oil boiler.

Does larger pipe always mean smaller pump? I was planning on 1 1/4" pipe from the tarm to the oil boiler in the cellar, if I upsize to 1 1/2" pipe, and eat the cost now, does that mean for the next 20 years I can use a smaller, more energy efficient circ and save electricity costs? 

Is there any downsize to the larger pipes?


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## heaterman (Sep 2, 2008)

MrEd said:
			
		

> I am getting to this thread late, so pardon my ignorance.
> 
> Everyone seems to be talking about only the distance from the OWB to the inside boiler, isn't it also necessary to figure out how much piping is in the house? and how would you do that? I have six zones in my 3000sf house, all mostly 3/4 or 1" copper, and 80% of the piping is all in the walls or otherwise inaccessible. How could one possible add up all the lengths, T's and elbows to figure out the required pump size? Yes, you can accurately add up the new run, but that only seems to be 1/2 or even just 1/3 of the problem...
> 
> ...



The house is not a concern because the system presently runs on it's own circ. Correct? The zone and boiler piping currently in the house does not enter into the equation unless you are going to do a direct run out to the wood boiler with no additional circ. The existing controls and zone valves will still operate as normal. You're just providing the heat from a different "burner" thereby eliminating the need for the fossil boiler to fire. All it knows is that when there is a call for heat from one of your zones, it doesn't have to fire the burner if it's already hot enough. 

Typically one would tie the wood boiler into the existing piping via primary secondary tees which are closely spaced (no more than 4 pipe diameters apart) and use a separate circ to move the water from the wood boiler into the existing piping. 

When it comes to piping long distances, it's always better err on the larger rather than smaller side of things. A samller circ costs less to operate and less to buy when it comes time to replace it. A 15-58 or 007 runs for less than half the cost of a 26-99 or a 0011. 

What is the total distance from the wood boiler to the point where the pex would tie into your existing piping? What is the heat loss of your house? In other words how much heat do you need to transfer?


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## MrEd (Sep 2, 2008)

The distance from my Tarm to my oil burner is only about 50 feet (100 feet total and was plannong on 1 1/4 black iron), but in my design, I didn't have the oil burner circ running when the wood boiler was firing. My plan was that the wood boiler circ wood run when the wood boiler was firing, and the oil burner circ would run when the oil burner was running - a parallel setup based on nofossils 'simplest pressure storage" design.

I don't see how I could make use of the oil burner circ without circulating water thru the oil burner (and all the losses that go along with that).


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