# Any hint at pricing on the Froling P4 boiler?



## superheat490 (Jul 27, 2009)

Does anyone know of approximate price on the Froling P4 boiler?


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## stee6043 (Jul 27, 2009)

I believe there are six or more different sizes available.  Obviously price will depend on output.  From what I've heard they will be quite a bit more expensive than the more common/popular brands on the market.


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## Como (Jul 28, 2009)

About $25k

Plus delivery.

For the bigest one.


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## NP ALASKA (Nov 22, 2011)

I am looking at the model 25 and its 15K plus. Not counting delevery, storage, hook up, pumps etc.


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## Gasifier (Nov 22, 2011)

NP ALASKA said:
			
		

> I am looking at the model 25 and its 15K plus. Not counting delevery, storage, hook up, pumps etc.



Boy, that is some serious cash. Especially if you have to pay someone to hook it all up. I had to pay someone to install it. And I wanted to. Didn't have the time or desire to do it myself. And it was worth every penny. But I'll bet you will be very happy with it NP. I had a hard, very hard time convincing myself to spend what I spent on my system. My wife said no. Well, she wanted to. Then I said yes. And went ahead and did it. And now she and I are both very happy. No oil being used. I basically have 13 into my system. Just under. But boy is it nice to have some storage for heating all the time and DHW in the shoulder seasons, and have every floor of the house and the garage running off their thermostats. Really nice. Good luck with your purchase. That sounds like a great system. Keep us up to date on what you decide, and pics are always awesome.  :coolsmile: BOTH OF YOU.


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## NP ALASKA (Nov 23, 2011)

Spoke to dealer today, should have a quote in the morning. I have to big of a house, I need the 32/38 model instead of the 20/25. I will run it on the 38 side.....its 129,800 BTU. My oil boiler is about that. I plan to place 400-800 gallons of storage which should help a bunch.

Tarmbiomass has these awesome tanks, my question is is it worth 3K plus shipping to Alaska for only 400 gallons??? Are these tank special? I could have a tank built locally twice as thick wall thickness for half that and have twice the amount of water.  Thoughts anyone???????

So I have decided to build a pellet bin in the garage, something about 5'X5',  7' tall. this should suffice until I can place a Silo outside. 

I have it figured at 8-10 ton of pellets. with our prices 5.50 to 6.50 I round up to 7.00 for my calulations. 2800.00 to 3500.00
This is a savings to the wood I currently burn at 20-25 full cord at 200.00 to 250.00 per cord. i used 225.00 for my figures. Thats 4500.00 to 5625.00
1700 to 2125 saved with no saw gas, splitter gas, bobcat fuel, time and labor cutting and stacking. Cheaper fuel and easier to deal with. That hard to take...

I have the equipment shed to store 8-10 ton easy enough. The bobcat with forks for easy handling. 

If any one has a good idea for storage please let me know. I think I would like to stay vertical since space is a concern. I even though about stacking two 500 pound propane tanks. Are these tank under 10ft long?

I have decided this is going to cost me atleast 25K, she said okay tonight so it straight aheaad get it done...

Best Regards, Morgan


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## PassionForFire&Water (Nov 23, 2011)

25K .... that's a very nice Thanks Giving present


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## maple1 (Nov 23, 2011)

I think if I could get a storage tank built local, able to take the pressure and to the size I wanted, at the cost savings you're talking about - I'd go local all the way. There would be some extra cost with insulating it, but don't think it would be that much, relatively speaking.

Those are some pricey numbers being tossed around - have you checked out the Varmebaronen pellet boilers? I don't know much about any of them, but they're a lot less money than I'm seeing here.


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## Gasifier (Nov 23, 2011)

NP and Superheat,

Spoke to dealer today, should have a quote in the morning. I have to big of a house, I need the 32/38 model instead of the 20/25. I will run it on the 38 sideâ€¦..its 129,800 BTU. My oil boiler is about that. I plan to place 400-800 gallons of storage which should help a bunch.
Tarmbiomass has these awesome tanks, my question is is it worth 3K plus shipping to Alaska for only 400 gallons??? Are these tank special? I could have a tank built locally twice as thick wall thickness for half that and have twice the amount of water.  Thoughts anyone???????
So I have decided to build a pellet bin in the garage, something about 5â€™X5â€™,  7â€™ tall. this should suffice until I can place a Silo outside. 
I have it figured at 8-10 ton of pellets. with our prices 5.50 to 6.50 I round up to 7.00 for my calulations. 2800.00 to 3500.00
This is a savings to the wood I currently burn at 20-25 full cord at 200.00 to 250.00 per cord. i used 225.00 for my figures. Thats 4500.00 to 5625.00
1700 to 2125 saved with no saw gas, splitter gas, bobcat fuel, time and labor cutting and stacking. Cheaper fuel and easier to deal with. That hard to takeâ€¦
I have the equipment shed to store 8-10 ton easy enough. The bobcat with forks for easy handling. 
If any one has a good idea for storage please let me know. I think I would like to stay vertical since space is a concern. I even though about stacking two 500 pound propane tanks. Are these tank under 10ft long?
I have decided this is going to cost me atleast 25K, she said okay tonight so it straight aheaad get it doneâ€¦

That is a nice Thanksgiving present! Awesome! Congrats and pictures all along the way please!

I have 400 gallons of storage and my E100 Wood Gun is "rated" at 100,000 BTU. But it puts out more than that. Probably closer to 120,000, but I am not certain. Company says they are going to discontinue the E140 because the E100 is large enough for most homes and some customers with the E140 and saying it is capable of putting out way more heat than they need. I will just say the E100 throws a lot of heat. I am happy with my storage, but I also think it would be better to have 700-800 gallons for my system. From what I have seen so far. I am going to wait a year or two because this is my first year with it. Then, if I think it is worth it, I will add another tank in. But hopefully what I have will be fine. But I would strongly consider more like 700-800 gallons. However I do not know what your house is like, your insulation, etc. And your heat demand up where you live will be greater than mine. I would think anyway. Will you need most of the heat to go directly to your house/DHW demand? As long as that can be done, the extra storage will be great. And I guess it all depends on how you set the system up as well. Can you explain how you will set it up and how it will function? I would be very interested in that. And the guys that know more about it than I do can give you some advice. Good luck guys. How you making out Superheat? Any decisions yet?


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## Chris Hoskin (Nov 23, 2011)

Hi Morgan,  the tanks we sell are not particularly 'special' but they are ASME stamped tanks which certainly adds to the cost.  Any pressurized tank over 120 gallons is required to be ASME stamped.  You will notice that all the indirect water heater manufacturers have tanks going up to 119 gallons which allows them to produce tanks without the ASME stamp.

Getting a tank made locally may make good financial sense, especially with the freight costs to AK.  However, your inspector will want to see an ASME stamp on whatever tank you choose.  Also wanted to mention that 400 gallons would be more than enough buffer for the 32/38 P4 - we recommend 300 gallons.  If you have room/ceiling height for a vertical 400 gallon tank, by all means go for it, but I really don't think you need more gallons than that.  With its wide modulation and, of course its ability to self start/stop, there is really not nearly as much need for thermal storage as with a wood boiler.  Buffer tanks allow for higher efficiency by creating longer run times and dramatically reducing the amount of on/off cycling that the boiler does, but the required gallons to do that are not near what it takes to optimize a wood boiler system.

Chris


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## NP ALASKA (Feb 22, 2012)

Well, thanks everyone for input. We have made the decision to go ahead with the Froling P4
I will order it this week, they say about 4 weeks for delivery to Alaska.
Not sure total cost yet but it is definately over 20K at this point.

I will submit pics as I get it and under take the task of installation with my buddy whom is a heating specialist and some help from dad who is heavy into controls and such.

Should be fun.

Regards to all


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## Paver56 (Feb 22, 2012)

Congrats-I just got my Froling 40/50 with 1500 gallons unpressurized storage up and running 2 weeks ago.  I am blown away!  I am so amazed with the engineering of the Froling.
It is so user friendly.  I hope your pellet boiler is just as great.  The day I took my delivery, the guy I bought my boiler from was delivering a Froling pellet boiler.  He could not fit it in his box truck the way it was shipped.  How big and how heavy is your boiler?


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## Singed Eyebrows (Feb 22, 2012)

Tarm Sales Guy said:
			
		

> Hi Morgan,  the tanks we sell are not particularly 'special' but they are ASME stamped tanks which certainly adds to the cost.  Any pressurized tank over 120 gallons is required to be ASME stamped.  You will notice that all the indirect water heater manufacturers have tanks going up to 119 gallons which allows them to produce tanks without the ASME stamp.
> 
> Getting a tank made locally may make good financial sense, especially with the freight costs to AK.  However, your inspector will want to see an ASME stamp on whatever tank you choose.  Also wanted to mention that 400 gallons would be more than enough buffer for the 32/38 P4 - we recommend 300 gallons.  If you have room/ceiling height for a vertical 400 gallon tank, by all means go for it, but I really don't think you need more gallons than that.  With its wide modulation and, of course its ability to self start/stop, there is really not nearly as much need for thermal storage as with a wood boiler.  Buffer tanks allow for higher efficiency by creating longer run times and dramatically reducing the amount of on/off cycling that the boiler does, but the required gallons to do that are not near what it takes to optimize a wood boiler system.
> 
> Chris


Not here Chris, ASME is required for a tank that runs over 15 psi. Below that any size tank can be used without that certification, Randy


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## Normande (Feb 22, 2012)

According to the Tarm flyer on front of me a P4 20/25 is about 12k retail


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## Chris Hoskin (Feb 22, 2012)

Singed Eyebrows said:
			
		

> Tarm Sales Guy said:
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Now THAT is interesting Randy.  Can you point me somewhere where I can confirm that?  I don't doubt you, but need to be able to point to it in black and white to be able to do anything with the info.  Do you think this is a state code, or national?  We are starting to hear similar things from an indirect water heater supplier, but the issue still seems murky.   I assume, then, that the indirects stop at 119 gallons because they are subjected to domestic water pressures higher than 15psi?  Any details you can provide would be appreciated, thanks.  Chris


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## ewdudley (Feb 22, 2012)

Tarm Sales Guy said:
			
		

> Any details ....  Chris




FWIW for comparison, here's New York State's 'synopsis':

http://www.labor.ny.gov/workerprotection/safetyhealth/PDFs/Boilers/boiler.pdf

The 120 gallon hot water tank limitation shows up, but residential hot water 'boilers' appear to be off the hook (if fewer than six families).

--ewd


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## NP ALASKA (Feb 26, 2012)

NP ALASKA said:
			
		

> Well, thanks everyone for input. We have made the decision to go ahead with the Froling P4
> I will order it this week, they say about 4 weeks for delivery to Alaska.
> Not sure total cost yet but it is definately over 20K at this point.
> 
> ...




Well, the Forling is not on the way yet, I amy have changed my mind at the last minute.  I am researching and seriously considering the Effecta line up. Boy with all the stuff on the market it is very hard to commit to a 20K project.

I will follow up with which way I go


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## Onfoot (Feb 26, 2012)

NP, I can fully appreciate the challenge of the choices you are making.

With respect to storage, I am quite happy with my 850 gallons unpressurized storage system.  But I plan to build a timber-framed 1500 gallon storage tank this summer, and will be purchasing a custom liner from Tom in Maine.  (www.americansolartechnics.com).  He also sells an 1100 gallon tank for $3200 which disassembles and ships easily.  If you have not already done so, I would suggest you check out Tom's website and perhaps talk with him.

Main concern for me is to be able to fire my boiler full-out for an entire burn, transferring every possible BTU from the wood to my heat storage tank.  With a bigger tank I can absorb the BTUs from a bigger boiler and minimize the amount of time that I need to fire the boiler.  (Note that I am not talking about reducing the use of wood--if my heating system draws a million BTUs over a 24 hour period, I will need to burn enough wood to put a million BTUs into the heatsink--whether that is accomplished with one firebox load or ten firebox loads.)  I don't want my boiler idling and I don't want to be needing to add wood every two hours.  My two cents, anyway.


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## NP ALASKA (Feb 26, 2012)

Onfoot,

Thanks for the reply, nice to see someone closer to me doing similar things already.
You really really arent all that far, I drive through to calgary area almost yearly. We raise quater horses and have friends there. I just bought a mare form a lady in Invermere BC.

I am spending the day researching the Effecta line, getting ready to call dealer for some more infomration.

Regards


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## Onfoot (Feb 27, 2012)

Next time you are coming down the Alcan, you should drop by and we can compare system notes.  One question I have, looking at your signature, is how you manage to go through 50 cords of wood in a winter...  What are you heating?  I have two buildings with a total of about 4200 sq ft heated space all together (counting the 1200 sq ft in which my boiler sits--the garage/shop/mechanical space which is simply heated by the presence of the boiler).  Everything is well insulated (R32 in walls, R60 in ceilings), though there are lots of windows.  And I am estimating my annual wood burn to be in the neighbourhood of 9 to 12 cords.

When are you looking to make your boiler decision?


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## NP ALASKA (Feb 27, 2012)

Sounds good i will let you know if I come that way this summer again.

I am glad to see you estimates, it makes me more confident in my pursuit of a new boiler.
I have 4800 Sqft. 3771 2 story home, 1029 sqft Garage/mechanical room.  It is double wall construction with 12 incha walls and a valuted R60 Roof. 
I plan to put my system in the front of the garage and will still be able to put trucks inside. Toys are in the shop across the driveway.
I am thinking about 1100 gallon tank from Greer tied to a 200-300 gallon tank. The smaller tank will be used when I am in pellet mode, isolateing the 110 gallon tnak out of the equation. When I switch to wood they all come into play giving me 13-1400 gallon storage.

As for how I burn so much wood. Well I am heating close to 11,000 sqft. between 4 buildings. House/Garage, shop, 2 business buildings. These are all tied to a central boiler 7260 OWB. I think I may hit 60 cord this year.


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## brokenknee (Feb 27, 2012)

NP ALASKA said:
			
		

> Sounds good i will let you know if I come that way this summer again.
> 
> I am glad to see you estimates, it makes me more confident in my pursuit of a new boiler.
> I have 4800 Sqft. 3771 2 story home, 1029 sqft Garage/mechanical room.  It is double wall construction with 12 incha walls and a valuted R60 Roof.
> ...



60 CORDS, wow do you have a wood processor? I wouldn't have time to css that much even if I had the loggers deliver it.


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## Onfoot (Feb 27, 2012)

Hmmm.  With 11,000 sq ft you have 2.6 times the square footage to heat, but (at 60 cords) are using 5x the wood (compared to my 12 cords).  I am not familiar with the Central 7620, but you seem to be going through a whack of wood!  Mind you, I don't know how your other buildings are insulated, nor the heat loss from the heating lines and etc.  Your main buildings sound identical to mine--double offset outer walls (2x4 inside 2x6 framing).

I would be shocked if you could not substantially reduce your wood use.  Mind you, I don't know how the North Pole, AK winter compares to Whitehorse, YT winter.  So far as I can judge, our temperatures are not radically different.


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## NP ALASKA (Feb 27, 2012)

Me
Chain saw
Log truck
New holland Skid steer
2 teen ager's that make a little cash stacking

I cut everything on the place, fulltime job, 3 of 5 kids still at home, 4 quarter horses, a business my wife runs and I am head maintenance man. All this and I will be completeing my BA Degree this year.

Walk in my boots, your sure to stay fit.


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## NP ALASKA (Feb 27, 2012)

I think our winters are pretty comparable.  

My other buildings are not as well built for sure, and they are 30 years old. We have a very high heat loss that is impossible to calulate.
The 2 business buildings are dog boarding facilites one has 10 dog doors and the other has 42 dog doors that can be swinging open anytime of the day or night. 
I close them off when we have not client occupying them. But none the less it is poorly insulated and its like keeping your front door open constantly.

This is why I am thinking 2000 gallon store with buffer tank in the other structure. The one with 10 dog doors has room for the boiler and tanks.


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## Onfoot (Feb 27, 2012)

With all those swinging doors, you might as well just be lighting a big bonfire every night, eh?     Mind you, I would not expect the kennel facilities to need to be kept anywhere as warm as your other buildings.  But clearly a huge heat loss no matter how you slice it.


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## NP ALASKA (Feb 27, 2012)

The kennels are around 55-60

The attached grroming shop is another story, it is a seperate zone and dont let the women get cold. You'll never hear the end of it. LoL


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## Singed Eyebrows (Feb 27, 2012)

Tarm Sales Guy said:
			
		

> Singed Eyebrows said:
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Hi Chris, I didn't see your post till now. The people that built my tank, IPS in Wisconsin told me this & you could check with them. I also found it under a Google search of Wisconsin boiler laws or something like that. I believe it is state code & kind of an unusual one. I'll try to do some digging too, Randy


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## henfruit (Feb 27, 2012)

Randy, Your sysytem must run over 15 psi?


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## Singed Eyebrows (Feb 27, 2012)

henfruit said:
			
		

> Randy, Your sysytem must run over 15 psi?


My system runs 13.5 psi maximum at 180 degree water in the tank & thats all the temp the Atmos is rated for. I'm running the 500 liter expansion tank in my signature, Randy


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## jebatty (Feb 28, 2012)

> Well I am heating close to 11,000 sqft.... These are all tied to a central boiler 7260 OWB. I think I may hit 60 cord this year.



There must be a better way. Deep Portage heats 56,000 sq ft on 85-90 cords/yr. 50% more wood; 500% more heated space. All of the heat is forced air through fan coil units and air handlers. A Wood Gun E500 with 4000 gal added pressurized storage and a Garn WHS 3200 with plate hx handle the job nicely.


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## Como (Feb 28, 2012)

Heat load not sq footage is the most important factor.

I expect to use 50 cords, but Pine and at altitude.


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