# Insulating basement - Thinking aloud



## kennyp2339 (Jan 6, 2016)

I'm will be starting my insulated the basement project this weekend. A couple questions or thoughts out load before I get this rolling.
My existing basement is concrete block wall. The wall is approx. 8ft high with 3ft exposed to weather the other five feet underground, I have (2) rectangular windows maybe 12ft x 20ft that swing open vertically. The basement connects to my garage which is walk out to the driveway (house is a raised ranch style)
Last year I used a basement water sealing primer to give all the blocks a uniformed white color, I have never had water in there, but in the summer I do run a dehumidifier and empty the 2 gal tank every 3 to 4 days, In my opinion it seems like I can call it a dry basement.
My idea for insulating is to install (glue) ridged foam board in the R-10 range (looking at owens corning foamular 250) taping all the seams. I will install a 2x4 along the rafters to make a clean line where the foam board meets the ceiling. I will tape all seems with a heavy duty tape. I have bats of roxual insulation left over from a different project that I intend on stuffing in between the rafters where they meet the 2x4 to the outer sill plate. I want to frame out the inside wall with 2x4 after the foam and install electrical outlets and drywall.
Right now my wood stove is approx. 10" away from the block wall. I plan on buying a couple 45deg dvl elbows and create an offset to move the stove away from the wall.
My main question is plastic vapor barrier - If I install the rigid foam board glued and tape all seems the foam wall should be air tight keeping the cold block from creating moisture right? Any input on this or the project in general will be greatly appreciated. Thanks KennyP.


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## semipro (Jan 6, 2016)

I did this in my basement almost exactly.  
There a good article here on basement insulation http://buildingscience.com/documents/information-sheets/basement-insulation  Another good reference here:  http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/how-insulate-basement-wall
The folks at Building Science have since changed their view that the walls need to dry inward saying that any water that might accumulate between the masonry wall and foam board wasn't going to cause any problems.  There's an article out there somewhere on that.  The XPS is a pretty good liquid water barrier but does allow some water vapor through.  A separate vapor barrier is not needed.  I took the precaution of using only latex paint on the mold resistant drywall I hanged on the wooden studs.  I also used Roxul, which is well suited for this application.
I'd also add that any wood that touches masonry should be treated so consider that with your sill plates.  Some recommend using metal studs also. 
My walls were a bit taller than the foam board so I had to install some fire-stop spray foam at the top of the stud bays. 
You may also want to consider insulating your floors similarly so that may affect your wall design.


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## velvetfoot (Jan 6, 2016)

Me too, but a little different. I made a couple threads here.  One is: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/basement-wall-foam-board-idea.30400/ .

The only wood I used was in the furring strips, and they were buried in two sheets of 2" foam. There are no fasteners going all the way from the outside through to the wall. I also put foam pieces in the sill plate area.  Used router for wiring.  Used Densarmor plus mold resistant drywall w/fiberglass facing.

You can run into the wall and bounce off, there's hardly any mold friendly stuff, but it took a while.  A long while.


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## smithm1979 (Jan 6, 2016)

All good stuff, i did mine in similar fashion. Glued and screwed 2" foam directly to the concrete and then studded 2x4 walls with fiberglass insulation in them. If I remember the building science page correctly, foam and then fiberglass was OK since the foam is in essence your vapor barrier.  I did all this before i put the stove in, i like cutting wood but don't like wasting it by heating the outside. Fyi, had a hard time finding what tape to use, all articles just said "tape the seams", i used 3M all weather flashing tape from Amazon, really good stuff.


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## velvetfoot (Jan 6, 2016)

I used Tyvek tape from Home Depot.


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## mass_burner (Jan 6, 2016)

What is the expected benefit here?  I have a similar basement setup and with the stove running for 3-4 hours the temp is a comfortable 69 d within 20' of the stove. Temp decreases about 1d every 6-8' and is coldest, 66, at the far end and corners. I have no insulation, and open joist bays.


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## semipro (Jan 7, 2016)

velvetfoot said:


> I used Tyvek tape from Home Depot.


Tyvek tape is good stuff and expensive. 
Owens Corning also makes a pink tape that's meant for use with their foam insulation panels.


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## semipro (Jan 7, 2016)

mass_burner said:


> What is the expected benefit here?


The less heat that is sucked up by cold walls and what's outside them means more heat for your house. 
Also, if the basement is occupied it will feel much warmer.  There's nothing like a cold masonry wall nearby to suck the heat right out of you.


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## velvetfoot (Jan 7, 2016)

semipro said:


> Tyvek tape is good stuff and expensive.


Hah, that the least of your expense concerns!  I don't even want to add up what the 4" of foamular cost.  It was a slow project, so I'd pick up some foam evenings on the way home. They are light and just fit into my car.


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## mass_burner (Jan 7, 2016)

semipro said:


> The less heat that is sucked up by cold walls and what's outside them means more heat for your house.
> Also, if the basement is occupied it will feel much warmer.  There's nothing like a cold masonry wall nearby to suck the heat right out of you.


Less heat, yes, but how much less? And is the difference worth the significant outlay in time/expense? And if you want heat in your house upstairs, why have ceiling insulation.


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## velvetfoot (Jan 7, 2016)

mass_burner said:


> why have ceiling insulation.


For me, it was there and I didn't want to mess with taking it down.  At the time I thought I'd want a finished basement, hence the walls.  Now there are 6 tons of pellets down there, so I guess that ship has sailed.


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## semipro (Jan 7, 2016)

mass_burner said:


> And if you want heat in your house upstairs, why have ceiling insulation.


There' s no reason other than for sound deadening.
If you heat source is in the basement the best insulation scenario is basement walls and floor insulated, ceiling not.
The numbers I've seen estimate 50% of heat produced in a basement goes to heating uninsulated walls and the world outside (no reference).   That's not too hard to believe when you consider masonry has an R-value of about 1 per ft. thickness.


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## iron (Jan 7, 2016)

so the opinion on the vapor barrier is??? none?

i'm looking to do a similar project this summer, but plan to use the spray on closed cell foam instead. seems cost comparable and should give good air sealing properties with a good installation rate (vs trying to cut sheets perfectly, tape, etc)


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## smithm1979 (Jan 7, 2016)

Yeah the general consensus is no vapor barrier, at least from what I've read online


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## mass_burner (Jan 7, 2016)

semipro said:


> There' s no reason other than for sound deadening.
> If you heat source is in the basement the best insulation scenario is basement walls and floor insulated, ceiling not.
> The numbers I've seen estimate 50% of heat produced in a basement goes to heating uninsulated walls and the world outside (no reference).   That's not too hard to believe when you consider masonry has an R-value of about 1 per ft. thickness.


But doesn't being underground, geothermal effect, give you a headstart on heating? When it's 10d outside, my basement is a steady 62d.


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## semipro (Jan 8, 2016)

mass_burner said:


> But doesn't being underground, geothermal effect, give you a headstart on heating? When it's 10d outside, my basement is a steady 62d.


Sort of but that just raises the base temp. Thermal insulation slows the rate at which heat moves. It doesn't prevent temp equalization.
When you start heating the basement at 62d you warm the masonry and surrounding fill also to increase its temp.  Masonry and soil have a high heat  capacity so it will take a lot of BTUs to raise their temp. This heat would be better used to heat the interior of your house.


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## mass_burner (Jan 8, 2016)

semipro said:


> Sort of but that just raises the base temp. Thermal insulation slows the rate at which heat moves. It doesn't prevent temp equalization.
> When you start heating the basement at 62d you warm the masonry and surrounding fill also to increase its temp.  Masonry and soil have a high heat  capacity so it will take a lot of BTUs to raise their temp. This heat would be better used to heat the interior of your house.


I guess it all comes down to the many variables, layout, size, etc. It also depends on your use of the space. I work there 3 days/week and also do wood working, other fix it projects, and occasionally watch football games. During none of these activities am I ever cold/uncomfortable. In fact, if I didn't work, watch football, I wouldn't need the stove, moving around is enough to keep me warm.


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## semipro (Jan 8, 2016)

mass_burner said:


> I guess it all comes down to the many variables, layout, size, etc. It also depends on your use of the space


Not really.
With a heat source in the basement your basement temps won't change much if you insulate the walls as long as that heat can move upstairs.
Simply put; if you insulate your basement walls you'll either use less fuel to maintain current temps throughout the house or temps in the house will increase.
I'm assuming here that heat produced in the basement has a way to move to upper levels.  If its trapped in the basement then basement temps will most certainly go up.


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## gzecc (Jan 8, 2016)

Don't forget to install 1/2" sheet rock above the top plate of the framed wall prior to installing the wall. This is fire blocking. Easy to do prior to the all construction.


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## mass_burner (Jan 8, 2016)

semipro said:


> Not really.
> With a heat source in the basement your basement temps won't change much if you insulate the walls as long as that heat can move upstairs.
> Simply put; if you insulate your basement walls you'll either use less fuel to maintain current temps throughout the house or temps in the house will increase.
> I'm assuming here that heat produced in the basement has a way to move to upper levels.  If its trapped in the basement then basement temps will most certainly go up.


My basement stairs are outside the inner basement envelope. There are 2 sliding aluminum clad 2" doors, one on each side of the two car garage. I think these doors have foam inside cause they are pretty light for their size. 

No other way for heat to escape freely  upstairs.


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## mass_burner (Jan 9, 2016)

So, is it worth insulating if you're not trying to heat upstairs?


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## semipro (Jan 9, 2016)

mass_burner said:


> So, is it worth insulating if you're not trying to heat upstairs?


Not as much so.  You're still burning more wood than you'd have to if the walls and floor were insulated.  However, since you're only heating the basement and it has restricted use it just may not make sense to invest time and money there.  
That said, unless your basement ceiling is very well insulated and air sealed (not just FG stuffed between the joists), a lot, if not most, of the heat you produce in the basement is migrating upstairs.


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## mass_burner (Jan 9, 2016)

semipro said:


> Not as much so.  You're still burning more wood than you'd have to if the walls and floor were insulated.  However, since you're only heating the basement and it has restricted use it just may not make sense to invest time and money there.
> That said, unless your basement ceiling is very well insulated and air sealed (not just FG stuffed between the joists), a lot, if not most, of the heat you produce in the basement is migrating upstairs.


I have no insulation at all, open joist bays everywhere. Wood floors above benefit. I have an l-shaped sectional/coffee table area 3' in front of the stove.


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## mass_burner (Feb 24, 2016)

mass_burner said:


> I have no insulation at all, open joist bays everywhere. Wood floors above benefit. I have an l-shaped sectional/coffee table area 3' in front of the stove.


Had to feel it for myself, but man am I using more wood in the basement. If I used the same amount upstairs yesterday, the house would be 85. 

I can't tell if the heat is floating to the further end of the basement,  if cold air is coming in from the garage, or if the walls are soaking up the heat.


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## semipro (Feb 24, 2016)

You'd be amazed the amount of heat the walls and earth beyond suck up.  I was.


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## woodgeek (Feb 25, 2016)

Taped XPS IS a vapor barrier.

AND, the concrete is going to be (assumed) wet/damp anyway.  So, nothing that molders in contact.  THis is why I don't like the fiberglass/stud approach in a basement.

I tapconned 1x1's on 16" centers with the screws going through a continuous sheet of 1" taped XPS up against the concrete.  Then put another 1" of XPS between the 1x1's, so I have 2" of XPS total and no thermal or moisture bridges.  The wood can dry to the outside.  I then screwed drywall to the 1x1s.  They sell 'systems' of plastic studs that work similarly.


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## semipro (Feb 25, 2016)

woodgeek said:


> Taped XPS IS a vapor barrier.


I believe XPS is actually a vapor "retarder" with a perm rating of about 1.1 (ng/Pa·s·m2) per inch thickness.   As sold, Foamular with the integrated plastic facing still comes in around 1.1 - 1.5 perms.
A "barrier" has a perm value of 0.1 or less.
This strengthens your case for avoidance of using mold-susceptible materials like wood studs in basement walls.
http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/green-basics/rigid-foam-insulation
http://www.finehomebuilding.com/item/5090/whats-the-difference-vapor-barriers-and-vapor-retarders
http://ww3.owenscorning.com/content/docs/ASTM Document.pdf


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## RichW_SC (Feb 25, 2016)

I am planning something similar. I have about 1000 sq/ft of dirt in my crawl space which is vented. It's pretty dry down there but no insulation in the joists. I'm going to put a 6mil vapor barrier on the dirt with 2" foam board on the brick walls. For the joists I'm gonna use 1" of spray foam to air seal and insulate. These old houses are so much fun...


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## Dieselhead (Feb 26, 2016)

Anyone use heavy plastic against the wall then 1" airspace with traditional framing and fiberglass?


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## semipro (Feb 26, 2016)

RichW_SC said:


> I am planning something similar. I have about 1000 sq/ft of dirt in my crawl space which is vented. It's pretty dry down there but no insulation in the joists. I'm going to put a 6mil vapor barrier on the dirt with 2" foam board on the brick walls. For the joists I'm gonna use 1" of spray foam to air seal and insulate. These old houses are so much fun...


I'd suggest you read up at greenbuildingadvisor, buildingscience, or energyvanguard before you do this.  
As I understand it, there are 2 basic ways to go: 
- insulate and seal the crawlspace and then connect it by duct to the living space for air exchange; or
- ventilate the crawlspace and isolate it from the living space with air sealing and thermal insulation. 

From your description it sounds as if you are planning some sort of hybrid that may create more problems than you have now.


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## woodgeek (Feb 26, 2016)

Indeed. You want to be careful with crawls...

Sounds like you want a separate air space insulated from the outside.

The 1" sprayfoam under the floor would be a nice way to airseal an old floor, but might not be necessary as Andy says.


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## RichW_SC (Feb 26, 2016)

semipro said:


> From your description it sounds as if you are planning some sort of hybrid that may create more problems than you have now.



Yes those are great sites and I'm planning to close off the vents, encapsulate and then monitor the moisture levels.  I have a dehumidifier I can put down there if needed. Luckily it's a very dry basement/crawlspace. The spray foam will be to air seal and a little insulation to make my hardwood floors a little more comfortable. 

To the OP here is a great site that covers basement insulation: http://www.homeconstructionimprovement.com/basement-insulation-guide/


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## mass_burner (Feb 26, 2016)

So I put a little fan on the floor in front of my desk pointed toward stove. It helped move the colder air and it got up to 66 at my desktop a lot sooner.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 26, 2016)

One downside to too much basement insulation is if you lose heat altogether for an extended period of time your basement will not benefit as much from the 55 degree below ground temps. Iv seen a house go thru 2 months of the worst part of the winter without any heat due to a n oil furnace that failed to come on and never freeze due to the basement being totally underground and no insulation under the first floor  between the 2 floors. The basement stayed about 45 and the ist floor about 35. This situation would apply a house thats empty for long periods of time in winter like a seasonal home or second home.


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## mass_burner (Feb 27, 2016)

Seasoned Oak said:


> One downside to too much basement insulation is if you lose heat altogether for an extended period of time your basement will not benefit as much from the 55 degree below ground temps. Iv seen a house go thru 2 months of the worst part of the winter without any heat due to a n oil furnace that failed to come on and never freeze due to the basement being totally underground and no insulation under the first floor  between the 2 floors. The basement stayed about 45 and the ist floor about 35. This situation would apply a house thats empty for long periods of time in winter like a seasonal home or second home.


What do you mean by never freeze? Pipes or people?


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 27, 2016)

I m


mass_burner said:


> What do you mean by never freeze? Pipes or people?


I mean the inside temp never went below freezing for 2 months despite no heat at all in the house and prolonged outside temps at 10 degrees overnight and 25 during the day. There were no people in the house for months as its a seasonal use house ,and the oil heat failed in mid december and wasnt discovered until mid feburary. I basement is all concrete block with no form of insulation on it and no insulation between the floor joists. Had there been it would have blocked the ground heat from traveling up to the first floor. As i said certain situations are better off with no basement insulation ,this is one of them.


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## mass_burner (Feb 27, 2016)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I m
> 
> I mean the inside temp never went below freezing for 2 months despite no heat at all in the house and prolonged outside temps at 10 degrees overnight and 25 during the day. There were no people in the house for months as its a seasonal use house ,and the oil heat failed in mid december and wasnt discovered until mid feburary. I basement is all concrete block with no form of insulation on it and no insulation between the floor joists. Had there been it would have blocked the ground heat from traveling up to the first floor. As i said certain situations are better off with no basement insulation ,this is one of them.


Yea, I get what you're saying, but pipes often  run along the perimeter of the main floor, close to below freezing temps. Whatever heat that comes up from the basement isn't gonna keep the pipes from bursting.


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## sportbikerider78 (Feb 29, 2016)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I m
> 
> I mean the inside temp never went below freezing for 2 months despite no heat at all in the house and prolonged outside temps at 10 degrees overnight and 25 during the day. There were no people in the house for months as its a seasonal use house ,and the oil heat failed in mid december and wasnt discovered until mid feburary. I basement is all concrete block with no form of insulation on it and no insulation between the floor joists. Had there been it would have blocked the ground heat from traveling up to the first floor. As i said certain situations are better off with no basement insulation ,this is one of them.


I live on a slope with a walk out basement.  When I insulate, I'm only doing the walls that are above ground.  It is not a normal living space with bedrooms and such.

I also had zero heat down there this winter as I was heating with a woodstove and no pipes froze.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 29, 2016)

mass_burner said:


> Yea, I get what you're saying, but pipes often  run along the perimeter of the main floor, close to below freezing temps. Whatever heat that comes up from the basement isn't gonna keep the pipes from bursting.


It did keep pipes from bursting in this case, water pipes everywhere on the first floor above ground. When i entered the house in mid febuary it was 33-34 outside it was low 20s after an overnight in th emid teens and the basement was noticeably warmer about 40-45 and the heat had been off for 2 months.


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## Husky (Feb 29, 2016)

sportbikerider78 said:


> I live on a slope with a walk out basement.  When I insulate, I'm only doing the walls that are above ground.  It is not a normal living space with bedrooms and such.
> 
> I also had zero heat down there this winter as I was heating with a woodstove and no pipes froze.


I'm just curious, but when I hear people saying they are only going to insulate half their wall how are you doing it. Do you leave the insulation exposed or drywall over half of it. I am only asking because I wanted to insulate my walls but in no way wanted to drywall to finish. Everything I have read says you can't leave foam board exposed due to the fire hazard and building codes.


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## vinny11950 (Mar 1, 2016)

Dieselhead said:


> Anyone use heavy plastic against the wall then 1" airspace with traditional framing and fiberglass?



This was done to the basement in my house somewhere in the late 80s.  They used regular lumber, fiberglass and sheetrock, and the bottom sections that touch the concrete floor are rotting out.  I have taken out some sections, and the lumber falls apart pretty easily and I can see there was no moisture barrier used between the lumber and concrete floor.  Not sure how well the plastic works against the walls because it wasn't attached very well and I can see big gaps that allow plenty of airflow and moisture to get in there, especially in the summer.  Not a fan of the system, which is why I am tearing it out slowly.


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## Seasoned Oak (Mar 1, 2016)

I would cover the wall with cement board with a small gap behind it first ,or a large piece of roof rubber. Got to keep the moisture away from the wall


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## sportbikerider78 (Mar 1, 2016)

Husky said:


> I'm just curious, but when I hear people saying they are only going to insulate half their wall how are you doing it. Do you leave the insulation exposed or drywall over half of it. I am only asking because I wanted to insulate my walls but in no way wanted to drywall to finish. Everything I have read says you can't leave foam board exposed due to the fire hazard and building codes.



My basement is a bit different.  I have many different sections and not just a wide open square or rectangle.  I have a block pantry and another area that is used for constructions.  When I do it, I have the ability to do entire walls and then skip other walls without it looking very strange. 

Right now, I have no plans to finish with drywall.


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## DickRussell (Mar 1, 2016)

vinny11950 said:


> .... They used regular lumber, fiberglass and sheetrock, and the bottom sections that touch the concrete floor are rotting out.  I have taken out some sections, and the lumber falls apart pretty easily and I can see there was no moisture barrier used between the lumber and concrete floor.  Not sure how well the plastic works against the walls because it wasn't attached very well and I can see big gaps that allow plenty of airflow and moisture to get in there, especially in the summer.  Not a fan of the system, which is why I am tearing it out slowly.



This comes up regularly, and this link:http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/how-insulate-basement-wall
often is posted as recommended reading.


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## velvetfoot (Mar 1, 2016)

Do you have a similar link for insulating a basement floor?


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## iron (Mar 1, 2016)

also this: http://www.homeconstructionimprovement.com/how-to-insulate-a-concrete-floor/


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## velvetfoot (Mar 1, 2016)

I remember reading of osb tapconned onto xps foam, and then a flooring on top of the osb.


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## moey (Mar 2, 2016)

Husky said:


> I'm just curious, but when I hear people saying they are only going to insulate half their wall how are you doing it. Do you leave the insulation exposed or drywall over half of it. I am only asking because I wanted to insulate my walls but in no way wanted to drywall to finish. Everything I have read says you can't leave foam board exposed due to the fire hazard and building codes.



You dont actually need to "finish" the drywall just hang it.  You would have boards up there anyways to hold the drywall up.  Besides being safer its nicer to look at then blue or pink walls. Ive done our basement with 2 inch XPS with 5/8 drywall hung up. I didnt bother to finish the seams as there is no living space in the basement. Its much much more comfortable now. There were times when my basement would drop below 50F now I dont think it has been below 60F and theres very little heat going down there.


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## velvetfoot (Mar 2, 2016)

I I think is cool is that you can run right into the wall and just bounce off-it's solid.


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## mass_burner (Mar 3, 2016)

velvetfoot said:


> I I think is cool is that you can run right into the wall and just bounce off-it's solid.


What exactly is dangerous about exposed xps? It's out in the open at the BBS all the time.


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## velvetfoot (Mar 3, 2016)

It's got writing all over it that tells you to cover it up.


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## moey (Mar 3, 2016)

mass_burner said:


> What exactly is dangerous about exposed xps? It's out in the open at the BBS all the time.



It has a low ignition temperature and then burns quickly and releases toxic gases.


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## semipro (Mar 3, 2016)

Dow Thermax insulation board meets most codes related to fire spread.


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## moey (Mar 3, 2016)

Thermax is hard to come by Im not even sure they make it anymore and its pricey usually.


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## mass_burner (Mar 5, 2016)

moey said:


> Thermax is hard to come by Im not even sure they make it anymore and its pricey usually.


So the material itself is inert, harmless? Can it be painted with fire retardant paint?


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## woodgeek (Mar 5, 2016)

mass_burner said:


> So the material itself is inert, harmless? Can it be painted with fire retardant paint?



No.  Its still foam with a thick foil layer so it passes some sort of flame test.


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## mass_burner (Mar 8, 2016)

Does anyone have any idea on the heat absorption rate of poured concrete?


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## woodgeek (Mar 8, 2016)

If you mean R-value....its pretty low, like 0.1 per inch of thickness.  The heat capacity is also fairly large.


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## mass_burner (Mar 8, 2016)

woodgeek said:


> If you mean R-value....its pretty low, like 0.1 per inch of thickness.  The heat capacity is also fairly large.


Folks say poured concrete walls absorbs heat from stoves. Well, I'm wondering how fast and to what extend it does that.


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## semipro (Mar 8, 2016)

That's dependent upon specific heat: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/specific-heat-solids-d_154.html 
and r value: http://www.archtoolbox.com/materials-systems/thermal-moisture-protection/rvalues.html
Those values only mean something in comparison to some other material.  E.g., heat travels x times faster through concrete than through y and concrete holds x times more heat than y.


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## woodgeek (Mar 8, 2016)

mass_burner said:


> Folks say poured concrete walls absorbs heat from stoves. Well, I'm wondering how fast and to what extend it does that.



Turns out to be a non-trivial calculation.  Bottom line....they can absorb MOST of it.


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## semipro (Mar 9, 2016)

woodgeek said:


> Bottom line....they can absorb MOST of it.


Which is what I observed in our house.  
Our primary source of heat, a wood stove, originally operated in our uninsulated basement with poured concrete walls and backfill outside.  The difference in comfort and upstairs house temps was significantly better after insulating the basement walls.  Sorry, no numbers to provide though.


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## mass_burner (Mar 10, 2016)

Has anyone used  reflectix, the foil faced bubble wrap insulation?


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## DickRussell (Mar 10, 2016)

mass_burner said:


> Has anyone used  reflectix, the foil faced bubble wrap insulation?


Here is a good read on that one: http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/stay-away-foil-faced-bubble-wrap


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