# What kind of stack temps do you have at full output?



## BoilerMan (Oct 14, 2012)

As some may have read my saga.... I am not able to get over 275F at the flue outlet of the boiler.  This is measured with the electronic stack probe that can be displayed on the digital readout, as well as my cheapo magnetic burn indicator on the flue neck of the boiler.  I feel this is way too cold, and thinking my wood is too wet to achieve full gasification.  I am going to break down and buy one of those dumb kiln-dried shrink wrapped wood stacks @Lowes and make one last attempt to see what the temps will do _with really dry wood_.  I may remove the turbulators and try also.  I've burned several loads and seem to be having gasification as the refractory is clean and makes a good rumble, however I'm getting uncomfortable with the amount of shiney tar-like creosote on all the steel in the lower chamber and migrating to the firetubes.  This is my first expierence with a gasser and also this boiler which by comparison uses much less wood, but is lack-luster in tar production.  Post some stack temps y'all get with a normal fire and how long it takes to get there.  I can get to 250F in about 10 min from a cold start, but no higher unless of course I open the bypass.  Help me feel better about this large cash outlay wood burner upgrade, the old NY-WC 130 had much less of a learning curve when it was in place of the Attack, I controlled the draft to maintain 350-400 stack and never had ANY chimney buildup, just let the heat (and smoke billowing) right up the chimney and all was good!  

TS


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## jebatty (Oct 15, 2012)

> I'm getting uncomfortable with the amount of shiney tar-like creosote on all the steel in the lower chamber and migrating to the firetubes.


 
Can your dealer give you any help on this? I don't think you ever should find any creosote-type deposits in the gasification chamber or the firetubes, at least I never have.It would be good to try some very dry wood and see what the result is, as moisture content could be your problem. If your are burning oak, my experience is at least 3 full summers of drying to get oak into low moisture content. Also, see if you can try different wood from a friend. Maybe a different wood or mix will perform better. And if you can, try increasing the air flow from the draft fan. Is their a damper or speed control to do this?

I burn very dry pine and aspen (minimum 2 full summers of seasoning, in woodsheds), both of which burn fast and hot, and I have the homemade chain turbulators. Stack temps during high burn are 425F or so, and mine are probably higher than others. I should try a load of oak sometime and see what the result is. I don't have much oak and I save the oak for the woodstove in the house.This is the start of my sixth season of burning, no problems, so why change a good thing?

I can adjust a damper on the draft fan to reduce/increase air flow and stack temp follows accordingly, but my Tarm really seems to "like" this temp range and it really purrs, or rather it roars. Also, I have a good 10' of black steel stovepipe, single wall, running up to the ceiling where it mates with the Class A, and although I haven't measured, I know the stack radiates quite a bit of heat into my shop and the stack temp likely is a fair amount less before it enters the Class A, another 11'.


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## fahmahbob (Oct 15, 2012)

Depending upon what I'm burning, my stack temp at high burn is anywhere from 325-425. The lower temp is when I'm burning oak that's been drying about a year, the higher temp is from drier oak or year-old red maple. Last year I ended up burning some 6 month dried oak (stacked on my good stuff - long story) and I certainly had issues with 'sticky' turbulators, but that was before I had my probe thermometer so I have no idea what the temp was. I mixed that stuff with dry pine and it helped with the problem, but didn't make it go away entirely.

Oh, and before I cleaned my heat exchanger tubes this spring I had temps close to 500 with dry red maple, but obviously dirty tubes is not how you want to raise your stack temp!


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## maple1 (Oct 15, 2012)

It's only been a week since I started burning, but my burns seem to peak at around 200c, which is pretty close to 400f. When I started, I was only getting up to 150c or so, which is around 300f. I have removed 2 out of the three turbs to get there. Have you checked that your chimney draft is in spec with the manufacturer recommendation? I'm working with natural draft, so will use all I can get (within reason), but I'm kind of thinking too much draft might not be good with a forced draft unit? Maybe? If the wood turns out to not be a factor, and your draft is within spec - I'd try removing turbs one or two at a time and seeing what that does. Also, I'd think about getting a second thermometer in my pipe to make sure on the temps you're reading - or checking with an IR thermometer (they can be finicky too though). My magnetic guage always reads less than my dial guage, by a fair amount at the higher temps - I forget how much higher exactly but I'll check that out next burn.


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## flyingcow (Oct 15, 2012)

I always thought the magnet style stack temp gauges read lower than the probe type? if so, whats that mean for you?

But, the tar creosote is troubling in your lower chamber, especially in the tubes. That being said, i have had, on a few occasions, a little "tar" drip out of stack after it leaves the boiler. Upon cleaning everything, no black stuff.

just curious, from throwing the match, how long before the boiler gets to 165? and then 195?  Should be in less than an hour to 165, than a little over an hour to 195?

Sounds like your getting gassification. Didn't you say your wood is about 19%?  Nice if it's drier, but that shouldn't be your problem. You mentioned Lowes, so you must be in the P.I. area. if you were down my way you could take a whell barrow load of my rock maple. But I think mine is between 15/19%.

After an hour or so of burn, do you have any smoke coming out your chimney?

My stack hits 250 pretty quick also. Runs about 400/450 during burn. When i see it pushing 600 I clean tubes.


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## Gasifier (Oct 15, 2012)

Taylor. My current stack temps are around 450-600 . If I have good gassification then my temp is around 400. If I lose gassification because of a blow through my coal bed the temp will quickly rise to 550-600 . Don't sweat this problem too much. I have been running my gasser for a little over one year now. (I burn all through the spring, summer, fall for DHW.)

In the beginning I had some creosote problems. I took me a while to figure out how to solve them.

First, you and Jim are correct that it may be in the moisture content. That was one of the problems I had with certain wood I was burning. Mixing in some dryer wood will help significantly, but not totally eliminate it. Once I got to the point of burning all dry wood and leaving the stuff with a higher moisture content until it is dry, I had no more problems in the boiler. Luckily I always have White Ash stacked outside. The stuff dries fast and throws good BTUs.

Second. I determined that I was losing too much heat through my single wall stove pipe and by the time the venting happened at the top of my 27' chimney it was not hot enough. That resulted in creosote and moisture running down the chimney. To make a long story short on this one, I switched my pipe inside the boiler room over to double wall, insulated S.S. and have had no problems since then.

Third. You and others may not agree with this, But. If you are having the problem because of moisture content and you do not have any other wood available. Here is something you can try. Just like in a wood stove or regular boiler, the smaller the split size is the more surface area you have for catching on fire. This results in a hotter fire. So if you have to, split your higher moisture content wood into smaller pieces. I found that it helped to get the fire hotter.

Fourth. Another type of wood to burn is *free* pallets. Now yes, it is more work, and a pain in the ass sometimes. But, if you take your time, listen to some tunes, and break some free pallets down, you can burn this wood for now while your other wood dries. You can also mix this in with your higher moisture content wood, say 40% pallet wood with 60% higher content wood. You may even split some of the other wood a little smaller so it dries out quicker while you are burning some pallet wood. I like to split wood by hand just for the exercise. Well, to a certain extent. So three or four nights a week I would go outside and spend 20 minutes and split some of my wood into smaller pieces. Using a large heavy round to set the splits on and hit them with a maul does a nice quick and easy job. Then I would bring these splits into the boiler room and stack them. They would be there for a week or more. Keeping this rotation going helped the wood to dry out even further before it went into the boiler. Did I mention the pallet wood was *FREE*!

Fifth. Sorry for the novel.  I get a little to talkative sometimes. 

 Have a good one man. And keep us posted on your problem.


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## Clarkbug (Oct 15, 2012)

You could always grab some biobricks if you can get them, or some cheapie framing lumber, which might end up being cheaper than the little plastic wrapped bundles.  2x4 will burn hot and fast, and you would definitely see what the top end of heat production would be.....


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## Gasifier (Oct 15, 2012)

flyingcow said:


> I always thought the magnet style stack temp gauges read lower than the probe type? if so, whats that mean for you?


 
This is what I heard too. And it seems to hold true. The temps that I am giving are rough. I am only using a magnetic thermometer on the outside of my single wall pipe just when it comes out of the ash cyclone. Really good gassification and I can have an outside temp of 150(inside 300), without gassification I have seen 325(650) on the outside of the pipe. Knowing that temp can be twice on the inside of the pipe, as pointed out to me in my first year of burning in my gasser, I know about where it is. Now I can usually keep the outside of pipe temp around 175-275 (inside350-550). Unfortunately I can not baby sit my boiler all day and make sure I have gassification all the time.

Hey. Check out this thread and read down to where you can see three different types of thermometers in one picture. Cool comparison.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/had-to-join-you-guys.90746/#post-1206064


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## wardk (Oct 15, 2012)

I'm new to this  too, I have found 350 to be about right . Have seen higher like 475 with very dry pine cause the boiler to puff,manual says use a brick to control airflow, works great. I think 250 is a little low unless the exchangers have taken that much heat off the flue gas to heat the water. What does the bypass bypass?


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## JP11 (Oct 15, 2012)

wardk said:


> I'm new to this too, I have found 350 to be about right . Have seen higher like 475 with very dry pine cause the boiler to puff,manual says use a brick to control airflow, works great. I think 250 is a little low unless the exchangers have taken that much heat off the flue gas to heat the water. What does the bypass bypass?


Put me down as a ditto of 350 being the sweet spot.

You need to remove every variable you can.   Get some KNOWN dry stuff.  Like bio bricks.. or a neighbor that's had something under cover for years.

Just starting to read your post.... like SO MANY on here.  I was yelling at the screen after the first couple sentences.. IT'S the WOOD 

It so often seems to be the cause of 95% of the problems on here.  Hang in there, the folks on here will get you straightened out.  You may, or may not have any hair left by the time it's fixed though.  

JP


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## maple1 (Oct 15, 2012)

Gasifier, are you sure you were getting creosote?

I'm new at this gasifying stuff, but I have always understood that gasifiers burned up all the creosote-forming stuff, so there would be nothing left going up the chimney to make creosote?


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## Eric Johnson (Oct 15, 2012)

Contacting the dealer is a good idea. Sounds to me like perhaps your air adjustments are out of whack. Forgive me if you've covered this already, but have you played around with them yet?

My only advice is: don't panic. These are more complicated devices than a conventional wood fired boiler, and there is an invisible learning curve, as well as the machine breaking in and performing correctly. The one wildcard with any wood burner is the condition of the fuel, which is a variable you generally don't have to contend with when burning fossil fuels. All I can say is that it took me awhile to get my rig to do what I expected, and yes, I had some unjustified buyer's remorse at times.


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## Gasifier (Oct 15, 2012)

maple1 said:


> Gasifier, are you sure you were getting creosote?
> 
> I'm new at this gasifying stuff, but I have always understood that gasifiers burned up all the creosote-forming stuff, so there would be nothing left going up the chimney to make creosote?


 
Yes. When I was burning wood with too much moisture in it I did get creosote. That was my fault. In the early part of my first winter season with the gasser, last winter, I was throwing in some wood I just wanted to get burned up. Mistake. To high of moisture content is not a good thing. Yes the boiler would burn it up in the firebox. But better to not have it. Now as far as the chimney went, I sure did have creosote. My chimney goes up 27' after it goes through the wall. That is a lot of cooling time by the time it gets up to the cap. After I learned a few things, takes me a little while sometimes , I called my chimeny sweep guy because I could see the creosote on the chimney cap. He came and cleaned my chimney out top to bottom. There was quite a bit of creosote. I don't like any of it.  Period. I had never had any creosote in the chimney when I burned my wood stove. That was because my stack temps were much hotter.

So, like I said. I changed my inside pipe from the pain in the a.. single wall pipe, with joints that leaked that had to be sealed with high temp caulk, etc, etc, to the double wall insulted s.s. and the problem has been solved. I also did away with all that b.s. horizontal pipe for clean out purposes and sloped it up to the wall from the ash cyclone. Heat goes right up quicker, any larger pieces slide back down the pipe right down into the ash cyclone. Works much better.

Oh sh!t. I started another novel. Sorry.


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## kopeck (Oct 15, 2012)

400 F is where I run.  The temps climb as the tube get dirty.  When I see temps over 55o F it's time to clean to tubes.

K


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## BoilerMan (Oct 15, 2012)

Ok, this thread took off fast! LOL, for all who asked, in my OP I have an electronic stack probe (factory), and also the cheapo mag thermometer, both read within 25F of each other. I also have an IR and that reads somewhere in between the two, so I know I'm in the bleachers of the ballpark on the temp reading. My chimney is 6" class A at 24 feet from the boiler flue collar, all straight up. My water temps go from room temp to 190 (with no load) in about 25 min. The boiler capacity is 47 gallons...... So heat output seems pretty good, it's just the low stack temp and I don't want to gunk this thing all up. I just brought home two of those EXPENSIVE kiln-dried shrink-wrapped firewood-for-idiots from Lowes. I'm gonna light those in there and see what happens. Thanks for the responses, I'll keep you posted.

Oh, ant BTW the majority of what I have is Beech, with some Yellow Birch and White Maple mixed in.  I cut it all last fall before the frost.  Split and stacked it all in March.  Most splits are around 18% with some as high as 21%
TS


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## Eric Johnson (Oct 15, 2012)

I wouldn't get all obsessive on the stack temp, Taylor. Mine has been all over the place and I've never had any creosote in the stack. Maybe a little soot, but nothing like you get with a wood stove or non gasifying boiler. If you're getting the heat out of it, relax and enjoy. You'll know soon enough how it's going to heat your house.


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## flyingcow (Oct 15, 2012)

Taylor Sutherland said:


> Ok, this thread took off fast! LOL, for all who asked, in my OP I have an electronic stack probe (factory), and also the cheapo mag thermometer, both read within 25F of each other. I also have an IR and that reads somewhere in between the two, so I know I'm in the bleachers of the ballpark on the temp reading. My chimney is 6" class A at 24 feet from the boiler flue collar, all straight up. My water temps go from room temp to 190 (with no load) in about 25 min. The boiler capacity is 47 gallons...... So heat output seems pretty good, it's just the low stack temp and I don't want to gunk this thing all up. I just brought home two of those EXPENSIVE kiln-dried shrink-wrapped firewood-for-idiots from Lowes. I'm gonna light those in there and see what happens. Thanks for the responses, I'll keep you posted.
> 
> Oh, ant BTW the majority of what I have is Beech, with some Yellow Birch and White Maple mixed in. I cut it all last fall before the frost. Split and stacked it all in March. Most splits are around 18% with some as high as 21%
> TS


 

you've got a different boiler than i have. So I haven't looked at the layout of yours, obviously. What you have for wood mc isn't bad. But just because you're stack temp on the unit says it's 275f, doesn't mean it's calibrated right. Just a thought, i am very seldom right. I married an Irish lady. Why argue? Sorry off topic. But i think your boiler is running good? Back to my thought....if the magnetic type of stack temp(which usually way lower than probe type) is matching the digital readout......IMO jack azzed opinion...somethings off with the digital readout?

Also, you're going to burn kiln dried wood....different first and secondary settings on your boiler vs waht you are burning now.


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## Woodsrover (Oct 15, 2012)

After a total of 4 full days of burning my new Woodgun and can report a stack temp of around 275 at full burn.  That's with a cheapy bi-metal thermometer so actual temperatures my vary.  Seems funny after seeing 350-400 out of my woodstove for so many years but there it is.


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## BoilerMan (Oct 17, 2012)

Well the KD stuff didn't burn any different (although my wallet was burned).  The highest I've been able to get the stack is 275F and that was with the water at 190F and a high bed of coals.  I've had some bridging and get quite a few blowholes in the coal bed, how do you guys avoid this?  I've been burning 4-5" splits and still get blowholes in the coal bed.  Is it normal to have tar-creosote on the upper chamber walls? 

I ran an underdraft conventional boiler in the same place and never had creosote on the walls of the boiler, I also burned hot and hard and cleaned everything to as-new monthly.  Let me know if you want pics of anything.

TS


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## Nofossil (Oct 17, 2012)

For me, the real question is whether you're getting good secondary combustion. If your secondary chamber has a coating of very light brown or white ash, then relax and enjoy. If it's dark brown then I'd work on getting a burn with really good fuel as a benchmark.

My flue temps run around 450 (internal probe). I have a small boiler with pretty short HX tubes.


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## goosegunner (Oct 17, 2012)

rx7vt said:


> For me, the real question is whether you're getting good secondary combustion. If your secondary chamber has a coating of very light brown or white ash, then relax and enjoy. If it's dark brown then I'd work on getting a burn with really good fuel as a benchmark.
> 
> My flue temps run around 450 (internal probe). I have a small boiler with pretty short HX tubes.


 

How close to the boiler do you measure your stack temps?

gg


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## maple1 (Oct 17, 2012)

Taylor Sutherland said:


> Well the KD stuff didn't burn any different (although my wallet was burned). The highest I've been able to get the stack is 275F and that was with the water at 190F and a high bed of coals. I've had some bridging and get quite a few blowholes in the coal bed, how do you guys avoid this? I've been burning 4-5" splits and still get blowholes in the coal bed. Is it normal to have tar-creosote on the upper chamber walls?
> 
> I ran an underdraft conventional boiler in the same place and never had creosote on the walls of the boiler, I also burned hot and hard and cleaned everything to as-new monthly. Let me know if you want pics of anything.
> 
> TS


 
If your magnetic stick on guage is reading the same as your probe thermometer, which is also close to your IR gun (I think that's what you said?), I would suspect your probe thermometer. This is likely a dumb question, but are you sure it's reading F and not C? My Euro boiler came with a C guage - but maybe yours reads both anyway.


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## henfruit (Oct 17, 2012)

Creosote in the upper chamber is ok.That is where you are taking the wood to 600 degrees and turning it into a gas and then pushing it through the nozel hitting it with secondary air and igniting it.It seems with low stack temps that you are extracing the heat in to the water very good.As long as you are not condenseing in the smoke pipe you should be fine.


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## kopeck (Oct 17, 2012)

I'm wondering the same thing as maple1.  My Tarm reads both but the primary numbers are a Celsius.

275 c would be 527 f, which would be a bit high but in the ball park IMHO.

K


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## BoilerMan (Oct 17, 2012)

Temp is measured at the steel flue collar.  Cheapo magnetic thermometer, confirmed with IR thermometer.  In the first image you can see the stack temp probe in the upper left part of the manifold.  Notice the bypass damper and hor wet-looking the creosote is, also some in the firetubes.  It is not stickey, but man I don't like it.  I'm starting to miss my old smoke dragon, chalk it up to buyers remorse, I just want to get this thing running well and happy about the cash and time I spent doing the install. 

TS


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## BoilerMan (Oct 17, 2012)

Here is the flue measurement setup

Note that the rear cover is removed for the previous post.


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## maple1 (Oct 17, 2012)

I was hoping another Attack owner would be along here...


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## BoilerMan (Oct 17, 2012)

maple1 said:


> I was hoping another Attack owner would be along here...


 
EWD had one but it was older without firetubes, totally different in that reguard.

Some pics of the upper chamber


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## Gasifier (Oct 17, 2012)

Taylor Sutherland said:


> Temp is measured at the steel flue collar. Cheapo magnetic thermometer, confirmed with IR thermometer. In the first image you can see the stack temp probe in the upper left part of the manifold. Notice the bypass damper and hor wet-looking the creosote is, also some in the firetubes. It is not stickey, but man I don't like it. I'm starting to miss my old smoke dragon, chalk it up to buyers remorse, I just want to get this thing running well and happy about the cash and time I spent doing the install.
> 
> TS


 
Hey Taylor. I can not tell you about an Attack. I can tell you that it took me a while to get use to my gasser. You will not have buyer's remorse after you get use to it. You will use less wood and have less smoke. Like others have said already. Don't get to hung up on the temp or the creosote. The creosote in the upper chamber is just going to burn away. In the beginning I use to scrape some of it off and knock it into the deep red hot coal bed. (I didn't like it either. )Then I realized there was no reason to do it. It all ends up burning away when things get real hot anyway. You see, gassers are kind of like women. Our money also ends up burning away when we meet the right one and things get real hot.  Did I even write that right?


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## willyswagon (Oct 18, 2012)

Hey Taylor my upper chamber looks very much like yours.
I too hate the creosote. Last night I had a super hot fire going due to the fact that it was in the mid 40's we had done two loads of laundry, a load of dishes, and both girls had 15 min showers. When I checked the fire at 10 pm 90% of the creosote had dipped off off the side walls and burned off.
I'm thinking that this will happen (hot fires) more often when the weather gets colder, therefore preventing the build up in the upper chamber.


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## Nofossil (Oct 18, 2012)

goosegunner said:


> How close to the boiler do you measure your stack temps?
> 
> gg


I have a thermocouple inserted right at the outlet of the boiler - before the flue pipe. My magnetic flue thermometer usually reads around 250 degrees 18" or so farther along.


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## stee6043 (Oct 18, 2012)

Quite a trip seeing Nofossil posting again....

I measure my external pipe temps a bit closer to the boiler outlet than Nofossil.  My magnetic thermometer usually holds pretty steady in the 350 range during peak burn.  Single wall pipe, cheapo thermometer, your mileage may vary.


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## goosegunner (Oct 18, 2012)

I had a magnetic stack gauge. I made a thermocouple with digital display.  In the same spot internal 400+, external 250.

The integral probes are also very responsive. I checked the accuracy omine with boiling water and ice water. I can see it with a glance from 5' away.

gg


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## kopeck (Oct 18, 2012)

goosegunner said:


> I had a magnetic stack gauge. I made a thermocouple with digital display. In the same spot internal 400+, external 250.
> 
> The integral probes are also very responsive. I checked the accuracy omine with boiling water and ice water. I can see it with a glance from 5' away.
> 
> gg


 
I wondered about external vs. internal for a while.  I have the thermometer that is inserted into the flu, they're sort of made for double walled pipe but I was told that if I wanted something accurate it was the only way to go.  I've always noticed that my stack temps ran a bit higher then what most folks post on here (I've never ran in the 300s F) and I wondered how much variation there was from one type to another.  You just answered my question...I'm really surprised there's that much of a swing!

K


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## maple1 (Oct 18, 2012)

My probe & magnetic guages are about 6" apart, and the probe reads at least 100f higher.


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## flyingcow (Oct 18, 2012)

Your probe thermometer should read higher than the magnetic and IR thermometer, shouldn't it?


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## maple1 (Oct 18, 2012)

flyingcow said:


> Your probe thermometer should read higher than the magnetic and IR thermometer, shouldn't it?


 
That's also what I was thinking.


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## BoilerMan (Oct 18, 2012)

Ok, so I just got home from work, got out the ladder, climbed up to the chimney cap...... If someone was trying to play a joke on me by spray painting the flue gloss black I'd believe them. I brushed it clean this spring and now it has the tell-tale glazed creosote gloss black. I'm not getting gasification, or at least not for long. I run the boiler "flat out" and I simply am not getting gasification all the time. Buyers remorse or at lest brand remorse, as no one else seems to have an Attack on here. I looks like a well made and quite simmilar to everyone else's Eartern Euro boiler. I'm going to just burn my EPA stove for awhile, until I get this figured out.  I'm not going to glaze up my chimney any more.  The old smoke dragon had high enough flue temps that I NEVER had buildup of any type in the flue.  I check and clean from the top.

TS


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## goosegunner (Oct 18, 2012)

Maybe I have missed it but what is the moisture content of your wood?

Wet wood effectively kills your gasification flame.  Do you have smoke?

gg


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## flyingcow (Oct 18, 2012)

http://www.condar.com/probe_meters_dir4use_woodstoves.html

this is the stack temp probe I use,and i think quite a few others here do too.


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## maple1 (Oct 18, 2012)

Taylor, consider these:

-Have you checked your chimney draft with a manometer? If below spec, it may play a part.

-Does the temp probe serve any other function than to give a temp readout? I have a feeling it is reading low - but thinking beyond that, if it was low and was serving another function, I would think you would be having the opposite problem - too hot.

-If I were you, the next thing I would try right now is pulling your turbs out (or some of them) & burning like that. Free & easy (relatively). If your draft is on the low side, the turbs would compound the problem. If pulling the turbs for a burn makes no difference at all, well, I guess you could call me truly stumped - assuming the unit is otherwise functioning correctly. No squirrels nests or packing peanuts in that thing is there?


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## BoilerMan (Oct 18, 2012)

Well my thoughts are the same Maple, pull the turbs out. This boiler has a suction (exhaust) fan, not forced draft like most others on here. I know yours is a nat draft unit and needs draft to function. I had a nat draft wood boiler in it's place with everything exactly the same with no problems at all. No somke when openingthe door either (unlike this one). That was one of the deciding factors on which boiler to buy. I liked the idea that if a door gasket was leaking it would not stink up the house.

I'm taking the whole air setup apart to see if there are any obstructions in there. Come to think of it, there was a mouse nest in the fiberglass insulation when I brought it home. Before I bought it, it was in a garage all last winter, but was new never fired. I hope there is something stuck in the air passages, then it'll be home free after that.

My wood MC averages 18%, I feel that the stack temp reading is accurate, based on alot of prevous wood stove and boiler expierence. After seeing the glazing at the chinmey top, it's not hot enough. If the stack were allowed to get hot enough, the glazing should evaporate back into smoke that it condensed from.

Bottom line: not good secondary combustion resulting in cool stack temps and smoke during the burn. My EPA stove is WORLDS cleaner than this right now, burning the same wood (it's going as I type, due to no boiler use). Sorry about the novel guys, and thanks fir all the input and ideas!

TS


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## mr.fixit (Oct 18, 2012)

Did you try adjusting the fan speed-or air settings?
Almost seems like it is just underfiring,maybe it needs more air.


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## BoilerMan (Oct 18, 2012)

Fan is at 100% Hz.  Factory primary air is wide open, and factory secondary is 1/3 open.  I tried opening up the secondary with seemingly no difference.  I'm in the disassembly moderight now.  The suction fan looks like one from a pellet stove, although the motor is not the cheapo shaded pole variety.  I'll take some pics.

TS


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## mr.fixit (Oct 18, 2012)

Don't know about the Attack but on the EKO when new,the nozzle is cast in place with plastic tubes cast in place to form the secondary air tubes.
With the first firing the plastic melts out.Maybe yours is similar.
Also I recall some early EKOs had misaligned air tubes.
In other words check the secondary air tubes for obstructions.


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## rwh442 (Oct 18, 2012)

I run mine at 600 deg F controlled with a type K TC in the flue stack.  If I did not it would run hotter.  Conventional wood boiler.  Air intake controlled by stack temp PID controller.


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## kopeck (Oct 18, 2012)

Wow.

Do you know where the original owner purchased it from?  Kind of sounds like you need to talk to someone who knows these units.

They're pretty simple over all but if you don't know the quirks it can be frustrating.

K


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## BoilerMan (Oct 18, 2012)

Ok, so I opened up all the air controls (shutters) and inspected the primary and secondary air passages......all clear.  I also removed the exhaust fan and took some pics of that, messed with the fan blade depth relitive to the suction hole, don't ask.

Air shutters, I peered in behind with a bore light. All clear, and was able to see all secondary refractory holes (air outlets).




Fan "suction hole" this soot is sandy and black




Fan




 A shot of the lower chaimber, notice in the back you can see the glazed metal.





Fire in it now, same thing

TS


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## maple1 (Oct 19, 2012)

Did you take some turbs out yet?

One thing I was wondering about was the NA/Euro voltages, and their hz. differences. I think it's 50 vs. 60? Wondering if yours is OK for the difference? Maybe it's all set up for NA anyway & might have nothing to do with it....


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## kopeck (Oct 19, 2012)

maple1 said:


> Did you take some turbs out yet?
> 
> One thing I was wondering about was the NA/Euro voltages, and their hz. differences. I think it's 50 vs. 60? Wondering if yours is OK for the difference? Maybe it's all set up for NA anyway & might have nothing to do with it....


 
I think voltage would be a bigger issue then frequencies but I have to think Taylor and the importer took that into account.

Funny little side story, the reason Europe runs at 50hz vs 60hz in the US is 50 fit the metric system, or at least their frame of thought better the 60hz.  60hz doesn't suffer the same losses that 50hz does in transmission. 

K


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## JP11 (Oct 19, 2012)

Ok.. could be a dumb statement..

but could the fan be wired for 220?

You've got half the "legs" of power and half the fan speed?

Note.. I did NOT stay at a holiday inn express last night.  I'm sitting in bed at a doubletree!


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## rkusek (Oct 19, 2012)

220v 50Hz motor should run 20% faster at 220V 60Hz but otherwise be fine from my understanding.  Doing the opposite is where you run into problems I believe.  Taylor are you using a 220V plug right out of your mains or some kind of step up transformer?


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## mikefrommaine (Oct 19, 2012)

The suction fan set up is similar to my biomass. When it was new the set screw on the fan blades was loose so the fan was not turning at full speed. It didn't gassify well untill I got the fan running right.

So are you sure the fan is spinning freely and at full speed?

On my biomass I dont open the bypass when starting a new fire. I turn on the suction fan and light some cardboard and small splits, the suction fan is strong enough to pull the smoke through the lower chamber with the upper chamber door partially open. I have an almost instant gassification flame while the cardboard burns off.

I would assume your boiler should be similar in operation if the fan is working as designed.


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## BoilerMan (Oct 19, 2012)

Ok, a lot of questions here.  Fan came with a Swedish 115V 60Hz motor, as well as the controller 115V 60Hz. Fan motor had to be taken out and some machine work done on the shaft though.  Long story, the shaft was 1/4" too short from the factory, so I took it to my favorite machine shop and they welded on a short piece to the end of the shaft and machined it true, you'd never know the difference looking at it now.  The fan was hitting the motor plate, no way around it, someone must have been sleeping on the assembly line.  This mod to the shaft in no way has any bearing on CFM befor or after, just mechanical room.  Anyhow, everything on that end is good as far as I know.  Fan works well, pulls smoke into the lower chamber easily and is very easy to start a fire, with quick rumbeling noises from the lower chamber.  After the door is shut though, I don't know what is going on.  Can't peek at the secondary flame, and it's very quiet outside the unit other than the fan noise, no rumbeling.  I have no baseline so I don't know what is normal.  I want a window to see into the lower chamber during a burn, than the truth will be out!  Should have bought a Varm, as it was my first choice........

TS


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## BoilerMan (Oct 19, 2012)

mikefrommaine said:


> The suction fan set up is similar to my biomass. When it was new the set screw on the fan blades was loose so the fan was not turning at full speed. It didn't gassify well untill I got the fan running right.
> 
> So are you sure the fan is spinning freely and at full speed?
> 
> ...


 
Mike, how do you know if your getting a good secondary burn (or any secondary)?  My boiler sounds just the same as far as lighting a new fire, keep the bypass closed, rake some charcoal over the nozzle, with two small splits over it, turn on fan, propane torch for about 30sec. Done, rumbeling from lower chamber in leff than a minute.  It's after that, that I don't know about.

TS


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## mikefrommaine (Oct 19, 2012)

Taylor Sutherland said:


> Mike, how do you know if your getting a good secondary burn (or any secondary)?  My boiler sounds just the same as far as lighting a new fire, keep the bypass closed, rake some charcoal over the nozzle, with two small splits over it, turn on fan, propane torch for about 30sec. Done, rumbeling from lower chamber in leff than a minute.  It's after that, that I don't know about.
> 
> TS


Mine has a viewing port on the lower door. You can't really get a good view of the flame but you can tell its gassifying by the orange glow. I can open the lower door slowly and see  the condition of the flame. With both doors closed I can't hear if it's gassifying or not.

On mine the secondaries are barely open. If I set them too far open than it blows out the secondary flame. To find the sweet spot I got a good bed of coals threw in some splits and adjusted the secondary air inlet while I watched the viewing port. I closed the air inlet down untill the flame went out and then adjusted the other way untill too much air blew out the flame. And set the air in the middle. For me it's set at about 15-20 % open. 

Another thought - on my nozzle there is a front and back. There seems to be an air path molded into the front of the nozzle that goes from the air inlet to the lower chamber. It's subtle and would be easy to put in backwards. Not sure what would happen if it was put in backwards.


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## mr.fixit (Oct 19, 2012)

Is there anywhere on the boiler,like a access panel or clean out cover,that may not be sealing properly,letting the fan suck in air where it's not suppose to? Just a thought.

Is it possible that the fan may be turning the wrong direction? Some motors are reversible so you never know.
Could of been wired wrong if it is reversible.If it's a non reversible motor,never mind.


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## Gasifier (Oct 20, 2012)

Taylor. What's the latest?


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## BoilerMan (Oct 20, 2012)

Zenon from NH is getting ahold of me Monday.  Fas is going in the right direction (unidirectional motor).  All sealed up, I gave it a good inspection before filling and fireing the system.  This does look to be a vell made unit, welds look top notch, and overall good fabrication work.  It's just getting it to perform as intended is the big hangup.  As of now it's in the 50s outside and I've had a couple of fires in the LR stove which will heat the house until it's sub-zero.  I just want it to not glaze up my flue, I'm under the impression that once I get good secondary burn all the glaze will burn off in the lower chamber, the chimney top is another question.  I'll keep you posted.  Any other ideas are welcome, and thanks to all who have posted and made suggestions!

TS


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## BoilerMan (Oct 20, 2012)

Mikefrommaine, you may have solved the problem!  I richened the air/fuel mixture, (closed) the secondary air a bit when I could hear the rumble, and it got louder! The factory setting mark is about 33% open, now it's15-20%  I saw stack temps around 275F still, but they were sustained for almost two hours and Zero Smoke  This thing puts out some heat, charger my 115gal indirect from 105 to 175 and had to dump quite a bit of heat in the floor.  The reason I fired it was to charge the indirect so I didn't need to fire the toyotomi for a shower in the morning.  Anyhow, things are looking up, I was thinking the fire needed more air, it is always my motto to let more air in if the stack is low, but not this time.  I still think my stack is low, but it burned well, and some of the tar-glazeing in the lower chaimber exaporated/burned off.  Thanks all for your input!  Buyers remorse now gone  Now that I have some type of baseline, I can work from here. 


TS​


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## Gasifier (Oct 20, 2012)

Yaaa! Good to here Taylor. Now you are going to see what that baby can do! Keep us up to date. Pics! We like pics!


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## mikefrommaine (Oct 20, 2012)

Taylor Sutherland said:


> Mikefrommaine, you may have solved the problem!  I richened the air/fuel mixture, (closed) the secondary air a bit when I could hear the rumble, and it got louder! The factory setting mark is about 33% open, now it's15-20%  I saw stack temps around 275F still, but they were sustained for almost two hours and Zero Smoke  This thing puts out some heat, charger my 115gal indirect from 105 to 175 and had to dump quite a bit of heat in the floor.  The reason I fired it was to charge the indirect so I didn't need to fire the toyotomi for a shower in the morning.  Anyhow, things are looking up, I was thinking the fire needed more air, it is always my motto to let more air in if the stack is low, but not this time.  I still think my stack is low, but it burned well, and some of the tar-glazeing in the lower chaimber exaporated/burned off.  Thanks all for your input!  Buyers remorse now gone  Now that I have some type of baseline, I can work from here.
> 
> 
> TS​



Glad to here its working for you.


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## Eric Johnson (Oct 20, 2012)

Great news. Enjoy!


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## kopeck (Oct 20, 2012)

For what it's worth my Tarm runs nothing close to the factor "initial settings".

Very cool to hear things are looking up.

K


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## JP11 (Oct 20, 2012)

Eric Johnson said:


> Great news. Enjoy!


 
Ditto

Now that you're in the ballpark.. it's just tweaking.  HUH.. for once it wasn't wet wood!


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## BoilerMan (Oct 20, 2012)

JP11 said:


> Ditto
> 
> Now that you're in the ballpark.. it's just tweaking. HUH.. for once it wasn't wet wood!


 
Well I was hopeing I kinda had the wood thing down........  LOL, the nerd in me with a Moisture Meter and all.  Sometimes I don't know how my wife puts up with me.  I know I was getting some gasification before due to the cleanlyness of the refractory, it's just the long term burn that was not good, you guys with your oxygen sensors....  For us poor folk, we are the lambda control, it's just takes us a bit longer to get into "closed loop".

TS


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## JP11 (Oct 20, 2012)

Taylor Sutherland said:


> , you guys with your oxygen sensors.... For us poor folk, we are the lambda control, it's just takes us a bit longer to get into "closed loop".
> 
> TS


 
Best tax return money I ever spent.  Fill 'er up.. Hit the button.  Tanks were 131 when I got home. 30 mins later.. 147 and climbing fast.     Glad you aren't having buyers remorse anymore.  Now it's just getting to the flat part of that learning curve.


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## BoilerMan (Oct 20, 2012)

Haha, I'm self employed, I try not to pay taxes, so no returns.  LOL, I wish I could make my house worth less....well to the town anyway. 

TS


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## JP11 (Oct 20, 2012)

Taylor Sutherland said:


> Haha, I'm self employed, I try not to pay taxes, so no returns. LOL, I wish I could make my house worth less....well to the town anyway.
> 
> TS


I know just where you are coming from.  My wife is a self employed photographer.  A big portion of our house is her photo studio.  I tell her not to look at the tax returns.. that's not what she is "making" 

I wanna puke when I see how much Maine takes from me every year.  I'm out of state so much for my job.. with a little documentation.. and a couple extra vacations out of state.. I could claim residency elsewhere.


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## woodsmaster (Oct 21, 2012)

I'm a little late in the thread but I was going to say if you shut the door and don't hear a rummble the air settings are off. My biomass looks set up similer to your attack. When I clean the tubes I get around 325 F stack temps and as it gets dirty It rises. After about 6 - 9 months temp get up to about 500 and then I clean it again. If you change to different wood or moisture content youmay have to change the air settings again. That's where a lambada boiler would be nice.


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## heaterman (Oct 21, 2012)

Stack temp at full output?........Depends on how much hot sauce was on the tacos...........


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## heaterman (Oct 21, 2012)

Taylor I didn't take time to read through this whole thing but downdraft gassers need 3 things to burn correctly. Dry wood, the correct chimney draft, correct air flow to the fuel and dry wood........oh, I said that already.....  So back to the three....

Dry wood. I have never been able to get good secondary combustion out of any brand/type of gasser with wood over 25% moisture content. The phase change converting liquid in the wood to vapor in the flue just steals too much heat from the combustion process. If your wood is over 25% you're just going to have to suffer through it until your wood pile gets to where it needs to be.

Chimney draft. This is critical to getting the flue gas up and out of the secondary combustion chamber. The exhaust fan in most cases is there to ensure things move through the interior of the boiler in good fashion and at the right velocity. It's not really intended to actually exhaust the flue gas and create a positive pressure in the chimney like a Garn does. If the chimney doesn't draft things tend to get constipated.

Correct air fuel mix. Most of the gassers I have seen that have been set up by the owners have too much air going through them. A lot of excess air can cool your flue gas too much and will also mess with secondary combustion. The only way you can really dial this in is with a combustion analyzer but you can get close by playing with the air shutter/fan speed and just observing. I would try dialing the air back to about 60-70% of where ever it is right now and give it a try for a few loads. Then adjust accordingly.

Lastly, every DD gasser I have encountered has some tar buildup in the firebox to some extent or another. This is absolutely normal. The flue gas there is in direct contact with the water jacket which of course is many hundreds of degrees lower than the gasses being generated there. Firebox temp will usually be less than 1000* and this will always allow some condensation to occur. The ultra high temps of 1500* + don't happen until you hit the secondary combustion stage.


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## BoilerMan (Oct 22, 2012)

Just wanted to follow up again, I've been burning only every two days for DHW production.  This thing really puts out some heat!  I can't dump it into my indirect fast enough.  I love it, I have to use the radiant floor as the dump zone, which is perfect for the shoulder season.  I can hit idle (set 195) in no time at all from a cold start with just the indirect, all this is only burning about 6 splits!  My stack temps are getting into the 275F (factory exhaust probe) and staying there during the duration of the burn.  I set the "FUEL" fan shutdown at 200F which gives just the right amount of charcoal to start a new burn in less than 5min.  Easiest fires to start, makes a wood stove look like work!  LOL  Mark me down as a happy customer, it's living up to it's modern looks.

TS


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## muncybob (Oct 23, 2012)

I'm finding that the type of wood has a bearing on the stack temps. In this shoulder season I am burning mostly dry willow and I'm seeing stack temps at only 250....throw some maple in there and it's closer to 300. More btu in the wood means higher stack temps, makes sense I guess.


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## Gasifier (Oct 23, 2012)

muncybob said:


> I'm finding that the type of wood has a bearing on the stack temps. In this shoulder season I am burning mostly dry willow and I'm seeing stack temps at only 250....throw some maple in there and it's closer to 300. More btu in the wood means higher stack temps, makes sense I guess.


 
That's interesting that you say that muncybob. I have been burning a low BTU wood lately as well. Usually considered a "weed" tree around here. I got the wood for free last year, besides the work I put into it anyway. But that Boxelder (a soft species of Maple) is only rated at 17.9 million btus/cord. This is just under Red Maple (still a soft wood) at 18.1 million. And that as compared to Sugar Maple, a hard wood, at 24 million btus/cord. But this Boxelder is throwing good heat. Just like when I have burned it in my Pacific Energy Super 27 wood stove years past. My stack temps have been plenty high enough, unfortunately that is sometimes because I have lost gassification , but even with good gassification I am seeing stack temps around 400. The Boxelder is certainly not a premo wood, but with it being free, I am going to continue to take it when I can get it! The stuff I am burning now I split almost a year ago and put it under the porch way too early. Luckily I put it in the back and left it there when I realized this spring that it was not ready to burn. M.C. was still too high. But it has been great to burn the last four weeks for hot water and a very small amount of heat demand every once and a while.


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## DoubleClutch (Oct 24, 2012)

muncybob said:


> More btu in the wood means higher stack temps, makes sense I guess.


 
Based on that theory, stack temps should decrease _even more_ for a _very_-low BTUs-per-volume unit fuel such as corrugated cardboard.

Yet contradicting the model, corrugated cardboard will melt your stack and burn your house down.

I think BTUs ÷ time would show more correlation with stack temp than BTUs ÷ volume.


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