# Whitfield Advantage II--Half the Burn Pot Doesn't Burn



## susb8383 (Jan 20, 2011)

We've had a lot of trouble over the past 2 years with our Whitfield Advantage II. Unfortunately we don't have a lot of skilled technicians. They clean it and then say that's about all they can do for it.

The problem is that the burn pot fills up overnight for various reasons.

What helped a lot this year was:
1. We got better pellets
2. We changed our stove pipe from a horizontal pipe to one that goes up to our roofline.

We also replaced the auger motor, which had gone belly-up, although we suspect our new motor has a higher rpm.

So here's the latest problem: the right half of the burn pot doesn't burn. For the past few years I noticed that the right half of the flame seems lazier than the left. Also the right half of the stove has blacker soot than the left. But it's really obvious now; when we start up the stove and let it burn for an hour, we get a big lazy flame everywhere and the burn pot fills up. But if I turn off the auger and then boost up the red dots (combustion blower?) the left side burns down but the right side doesn't. (Pic attached).







Another thing--the door. When I latch it shut, it is really easy to do. I barely have to push it. I've done the test with a piece of paper to check the gasket. There's a little resistance, but not a lot. The gasket hasn't been changed in 15+ years. Also over time the door keeps popping its bottom hinge out and we keep pounding it back in. It still sticks out because we never could get it back totally.

The flue pipe probably needs cleaning. We've removed the bottom of the clean out tee but we haven't yet tried to get a tool around the corner (I wanted a double clean out tee, but they don't make it in a 3-inch to 4-inch converter, which is what we needed).

So, all you experts out there...my theory is that their weird thing with the right half of the burn pot acting differently than the left has to do with the door. Shouldn't it be harder to latch it? Is there a way to adjust something so that it is a tighter fit? Do I need to replace the gasket? 

Also our combustion fan blades are really caked with soot. Does that matter? Should I replace it or is there a way to clean it off?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Susie


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## Wi Thundercat (Jan 20, 2011)

If the combustion fan blades are caked with soot it will not move the air that it should for a proper burn. Cleaning them would make a huge difference!


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## imacman (Jan 20, 2011)

Susb8383,

you have most likely named all the problems with your 15+ yr. old stove......it's VERY dirty, the door gasket is probably leaking & needs to be replaced, and your blowers are caked with soot and probably dust in the convection blower too.

The "dollar bill test" you did told a lot....air is probably leaking in.  

Also, there's the problem with the hinge.  

The stove probably needs a MAJOR disassembly & cleaning, including the ENTIRE exhaust pipe. 

And yes, the combustion blower vanes (fan blades) can be cleaned with a wirebrush and a stiff putty knife.

Don't forget to clean the room air blower fan blades too.  There might be oiling holes on that fan (or both?) too.


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## webbie (Jan 20, 2011)

You say they cleaned it....but are you 100% sure all the air intakes and heat exchangers are clean? If one side of the stove was clogged, this is what might happen...no air flow though that part. 

Have you ever taken it outside and done the leaf blower thingy with it?


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 20, 2011)

Your stove is plugged on the right hand side(looking at the stove)

Go looking for multilevel ash traps behind that "fire" brick on the right.

When you find them clean them out, and while you are at it make certain the top right side above the "fire" brick on the back wall allows you to see a brush shoved up into the first level ash trap.


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## susb8383 (Jan 23, 2011)

Such great info from everyone. Where to start???

I removed the firebricks. Not a lot of ash behind them, but I cleaned out what I could see. My stove doesn't have any additional metal baffles behind them. I did find some ash underneath the cleaning damper (if that's what it's called). But nothing that looked different on the right side vs. the left.

Tomorrow I plan to do a leaf blower cleaning using the vacuum feature from the outside. Maybe that will get rid of the mystery ash.

How can I tell if either my exhaust fan or room blower fan needs replacing? Neither has been lubed since I've had the stove. Both motors work but how can I tell if they are working sufficiently?

I plan to buy a door gasket kit and attempt to replace it.

Here's another question, and I'm afraid of the answer. In attempting to clean the heat exchanger tubes, I removed the metal plate in front of them. Is that plate called the heat exchanger baffle? The reason I'm afraid to ask is:
1. I can't find any stores online that has it for the model I need and 
2. My baffle is in pretty bad shape:






Any suggestions?


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## imacman (Jan 23, 2011)

Susie,

Wood Heat Stoves sells parts for Whitfields.  Check here to see if they have the part you are referring to:

http://woodheatstoves.com/advantage-iit-and-iii-c-292_90_99_95_207.html


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## drtnshtr (Jan 23, 2011)

there is also a place near dayton ohio called Stivers Pools that has a ton of older whitfield parts. I dont have their number but im sure a quick search will get ya there. They do ship parts.


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## drtnshtr (Jan 23, 2011)

another thing about this stove is the ash tray sealing up. The ash tray on mine did not seal up very tight and when the stove was burning you could push the tray in and immediately see the flames jump. I adjusted it to work better.


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## checkthisout (Jan 23, 2011)

You REALLY need a new stove.


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## rbchimp (Jan 23, 2011)

I have the same model, when I burn I always leave the blower (green) at 5, and adjust the auger (red) between 2 & 5.  It works for me.  They can be temperamental beasts.

I purchased new fire bricks from Wood Heat Stoves, quick delivery to Canada, should be even faster to you if you need parts.


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## susb8383 (Jan 23, 2011)

Hi all,

My ash tray is pretty tight; it doesn't move at all. 

I did try woodheatstoves.com first but they don't have it.  I will try Stivers Pools; thanks for the tip.

Checkthisout-- yeah....you're probably right. But I found another thread that someone with an Advantage II had started. He inherited a 17-year old stove from a house he bought and was asking what he should buy to replace it. It had a big, lazy flame. He had tried to clean it on his own but didn't have much luck. The people who posted all said that the Whitfield Advantages were really good stoves and not to give up on them. They walked him through how to do a more thorough job. When he was done he was thrilled with the bright, jumping flame.

So...I'm not quite ready to plunk down $3000 until I've exhausted all the other options. 

Yesterday I bought a Sooteater from Amazon. The reports have been good about it. I'm amazed at the amount of ash I see in my flue when I remove the bottom from the cleanout-tee, considering this pipe has just been put in a few months ago. 

Just got back from HD with some hardware to use on my leaf blower. We'll see how it does.

rbchimp, thanks for the tip. We usually put the green a dot or two higher than the red, but I'll try leaving it at 5.

So I assume that 'heat exchanger baffle' is the name of that part? That really is the worst of my stove wear, although the heat exchanger tubes are pretty much the same color as that.

--Susie


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## Wood Heat Stoves (Jan 23, 2011)

send me an inquiry directly daveg@woodheatstoves.com
i'll see if i can find it for you
include model, serial number, part number and description

http://woodheatstoves.com/kitbafflewp21994-p-2896.html  advantage 2
not in stock, but not discontinued!

17100061 advantage2t-3 discontinued item


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## arnash (Jan 24, 2011)

I'd like to add the same advice I just posted in another thread which you might not have read yet.  here it is:
Hi all.  I'm new to pellet stoves and this forum, but in investigating my new old-2nd-hand $50.00 Whitfield Advantage pellet stove (serial # about 7,000) I removed the top piece from over the burn chamber and could then see straight down into the space between the top of the door and the body.  I saw that there was a gap between the gasket and the body, so I assumed that the problem was with the gasket having shrunk with age (even though it appeared to be in perfect condition).
  But a week or so later I discovered something that may apply to all old pellet stoves.  I looked at the locking pin that the latch locks onto and saw that it was no longer round,  but had a gouge worn into it from years of use.  It's loss of metal was essentially the same thickness as the gap between the body and the door.  To fix the pin I coiled a common piece of wire around it several times to fill in the area of the gouge.  Now the door closes tighter and not as easily as before, when it was too easy, -just a bump and it would pop open.
    Bottom line is that the issue of checking the gasket tightness should probably begin with inspecting the pin if the stove has had lots of use.  Hopes this saves someone from replacing a perfectly good gasket.  

 Plus I'd like to mention that cleaning out ash from behind the firebrick didn't make any discernible difference in the  strength of my stove's flame, and both side chambers were full to the top!  I removed over a half gallon of particle matter but it didn't seem to make any difference. (?)  Is it assumed that it should?  
   I wish I had some idea as to why half of your burn pot was cooler than the other, which is the heart of your situation.  Common sense would say that something fairly close to that cooler side is blocking air flow,  the only way to check is to pull out the burn pot and look into the pipe that feeds it air.  Worst case scenario is that a dead and dessicated mouse in blocking one side.  (I once had a refrigerator that quit chilling when a mouse, that was standing on the motor fan, got lodged there when the fan and motor kicked on, stopping the fan from turning. )  It's a far-out possibility, but then your particular problem is pretty strange and possibly unique.   I hope you, or someone else, can discover the actual cause of the problem because we will all then know something that might affects us some day.


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## susb8383 (Jan 27, 2011)

Well no wonder I had such a hard time finding the heat exchanger baffle. It turns out I don't have an Advantage IIT, I have an Advantage Plus! The stove shop that sold it to me has it.

But that doesn't resolve my burn issue. Arnash--thanks for your advice. That's very logical because if it was the door gasket, it doesn't make sense to me why the burn pot would have such a nice neat line dividing where it burns properly from where it doesn't. I'll see if I can find a way to check that pipe. (I never really noticed there WAS a pipe there!)

--Susie

Oh, by the way, I'll also mention that the flame is a really odd orange color with blue. This is for all of the flame, not just the right side of the burn pot.


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## susb8383 (Jan 28, 2011)

Well I'm ecstatic to report that the problem is solved!

It helps when you search for info on the right model. Now that I know I have an Advantage Plus, I found this post from the Stove Doctor:



			
				hearthtools said:
			
		

> With the plus the dont have to remove the firebrick
> You want to Claen the ash traps by pulling the two round plugs at the bottom of the fire box and get a small hose on a vacuum and suck out the ash. MAKE SURE YOU PUT THEM BACK



Yup, there's a plug on each side of the fire box near the bottom, about the size of a quarter. I have never taken them out before. But that explains why I don't have any ash traps behind my firebricks. I'm guessing these plugs are entry points to the ash traps that you can no longer see, but it means that you can clean them out without removing the fire bricks.

The last guy who cleaned the stove told my husband something about them (I wasn't home at the time) but it was lost on both of us.

I pried them off with a screwdriver and found behind them was jammed with ash. I pulled loose ash out with a wire and then stuck a vacuum hose to the opening. On the right side, the vacuum protested for a second which makes me think it pulled out a big wad of ash. (I know I should get an ash vac...) 

Started up the stove and both sides of the burn pot work fine! Whoo Hoo!

Kind of annoyed at Whitfield. I looked again at my owner's manual for the Advantage Plus. There is absolutely no mention of cleaning out the ash behind these plugs anywhere. Their routine cleaning section just says 1. to scrape out the burn pot, 2. to use the damper rod for cleaning off the heat exchanger tubes 3. to empty the ash pan.

Good thing I have this forum!!

But I am going to take all the other suggestions at some point...clean out and oil both fans, clean out the exhaust pipe, do a more thorough leaf-blower vacuum.

Thanks everyone

--Susie


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## susb8383 (Jan 29, 2011)

Wow, it works too well now! I had the red dots on 2, the green on 3, and it overheated.

D'oh!

Does that have something to do with the damper? Should it be pushed in more or less?


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 29, 2011)

Maybe you are just pushing too many pellets through the stove for the convection air fan to dissipate the heat from.

ETA: Speaking of the convection fan you did clean it right?

And did you get that baffle reinstalled?


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## Snowy Rivers (Jan 29, 2011)

The Whitfields have always been a great stove.

I have two Whitfields, a tiny little Prodigy and an Advantage II and they are great stoves.

These stoves do like to be clean to work well though.

The Advantage gets all its combustion air pulled through the firepot by the exhaust fan.

Glad you got the beastie all fixed.


Snowy


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## susb8383 (Feb 1, 2011)

Well I spoke too soon. Still not fixed, but better. Now it doesn't clog up immediately, but if we leave it running overnight, in the morning we have half the burn pot full. Still a lazy flame regardless of the damper setting. It also burns so hot that it overheats. 

My theory is that it is clogged in the passage that attaches the ash trap chamber to??? I've tried to poke around with a wire but all I feel are the metal sides.

I've asked Dave Gault if he has a service manual so we'll see where that takes me.

I think the leaf blower fix would do it. But my problem is that I have a clean out tee outside the house that doesn't come off easily (the top of it was screwed to the next piece which was a variable length pipe and the side end is caulked.) I also don't have easy access to the roof because that's right where all our wires are.

So when I put the leaf blower at the bottom of the tee, it was pulling from both the stove and the end cap on the roof. I'm trying to figure out a way to block off the vertical pipe by sticking something inside it so that all the suction will be directed to the stove. Maybe a 3-inch segment of PVC with a rubber 'hat' on the end to seal the tube a little. Hmm.... Would be a lot easier to do if we didn't have 3+ feet of snow on the ground! (And another foot due tonight).

But I did replace the heat exchanger baffle. That felt good! The old one was sooo corroded that a big piece just broke off in my hand when I tried to take it off.

--Susie


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 1, 2011)

You can also direct a stream of compressed air through those traps, however you need to make certain that your combustion blower is running and that you are careful not to get the mess coming back at you.

Then clean the venting which is where the mess will be ;-).

On the overheating, if the exhaust system is dirty the system can't move enough of the hot exhaust gases through the venting and heat will build up in the stove including the heat exchanger where that high limit system will say oops danger too hot.

Also if the convection air system isn't pushing enough volume of air through the exchanger the temperature will build up to the point the high limit says no lady, ain't gonna run any more pellets through right now.  So make certain that system is clean and that the blower is operating properly.


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## susb8383 (Feb 2, 2011)

How can I tell if the blower is operating properly?


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## arnash (Feb 2, 2011)

My Whitfield is ancient and it has a rotary knob to control the speed of the convection fan (the combustion fan runs at a constant speed and its air flow is controlled by the damper).  It blows a lot of air when it's at maximum.  If your heated air isn't coming out with  a reasonable amount of force when it's on a high setting, then something is wrong with that aspect of the system.  It occurs to me that the cause of a lazy flame, -weak combustion air movement, can be more than a clogged air intake tube, it can also be a clogged exhaust system, or cap.  Perhaps snow is affecting the escape of air from the exhaust vent at the cap on the roof.  I'd have a look at that cap. 

 One other thing you could try is to connect a vacuum hose to the air intake pipe to possibly suck-out any obstruction within it (while it's not running of course).  My Advantage I has a different type of burn pot than the II but I'd guess that the II can also be pulled out.  My burn pot can be lifted out of a metal box that has a pipe in back that connects to the air intake pipe.  Perhaps the Advantage II has a similar arrangement and removing the right part would give you a view of the intake pipe.


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## Stovensen (Feb 2, 2011)

Susie,

The photo of your Advantage Plus shows that it has the same burn pot as my Quest Plus... the Ultra Grate burn pot.

I have experienced exactly the same non-symmetrical burn-phenomena with mine. The remedy was quite simple in my case.

It turned out that the culprit was the inlet-hole for the ignitor at the lower rear side of the burn pot... I noticed that a lot of false air entered the left side here making the pellets burn much faster in this side.

I plugged this hole permanently with a small bolt ( head of bolt towards the flameside and nut on the other ).

I also unplugged the ignitor permanently and now I light the stove manually with fire gel.

There are several benefits with manual starting... I save quite a lot of electricity, the stove is lit much quicker ( 2 minutes ) and I don't have to buy a new ignitor every second year or so

Hope this helps. Good luck and keep us posted


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## susb8383 (Feb 2, 2011)

Stovensen said:
			
		

> Susie,
> 
> The photo of your Advantage Plus shows that it has the same burn pot as my Quest Plus... the Ultra Grate burn pot.
> 
> ...



Hi,

That's interesting. I never thought that might be the problem. But let me ask you, did the asymmetrical burn always occur or did it just pop up? My burn pot used to work fine. I was only in the past couple of years that the problem started happening, which made me think it was caused by ash clog.


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## Stovensen (Feb 2, 2011)

The burn was asymmetrical all the time until I plugged the ignitor-hole.

The ash clog in your exhaust "manifold" can most likely contribute to an uneven airflow above the burnpot, so cleaning that area is very important to ensure good draft.

From reading this thread I understand that your Advantage Plus has a different ducting in the housing between the heatexchangertubes and the combustionblowerhousing ( AKA "the exhaust manifold" ). A Quest Plus is rather difficult to clean in this area, since it can't be dismantled... I'll have to use a long bottlecleanerbrush and a homemade hose for the vac. This cleaning, however, is very effective... the stove works like brand new after each cleaning.

It's very easy to plug the igniter-hole. All you need is a bolt and nut of the right size.

Safety first... if you're planning to unplug the ignitor as well, take care... first unplug the mains, and the "hot" connectors to the ignitor must be insulated properly and fastened to something, so that they by no means can get to touch anything      :exclaim: 

Good luck
Bo


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## susb8383 (Feb 2, 2011)

You know, you got me thinking. Today I tried the leaf blower thing after plugging up the vertical pipe. I expected a big cloud of ash like I saw on Youtube, but I hardly got anything. 

Maybe I'm chasing a mythical clog. Maybe the problem is the combustion blower or something and the burn pot has a problem all around. But I don't notice it on the left because of the ignitor air leak as you mentioned. Also one of the bars in our ultra grate has come loose on one side, so there's a bigger hole. This is also on the left side of the burn pot which probably means the pellets fall through before being burned thoroughly.

Well, tomorrow (hopefully) I'm going to take out the combustion blower and try to clean down that passage as much as I can, as you suggested. I was hoping that the leaf blower would do this for me because every time I take off the combustion blower, there's a chance the gasket will break and buying those things add up. But I'll give it a shot. I might just buy a new combustion blower for good measure.

--Susie


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## susb8383 (Feb 8, 2011)

Sheesh, well I replaced the door gasket. And that made it worse!! 

Now I can't get it to light at all. It ignites for a second but then never really catches.

So...my theory is that my door gasket was so bad before that it made up for its other problems. Now that I have a tight seal, it accentuates whatever caused the problem in the first place.

My next plan is to replace the combustion blower.


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## arnash (Feb 8, 2011)

Yeah, it might be the combustion blower, but don't replace it until you connect it to an electrical outlet to see if it runs normally.  If it does, then there's another problem.  If it works the same outside of the stove as inside then it should produce a strong wind to the burn pot.  My burn pot flame looks like there's a wind storm blowing through it, even with the damper opened only about a quarter of an inch (that's about the size of a big postage stamp). 

 As for getting the flame going, you must be referring to using an electrical igniter since manual fire-starting can make a flame of any size determined by the amount of combustible material used.  But what I'm guessing that you're referring to, without saying it, is that the flame is not being stoked enough by blower air to make it aggressive.  My blower has done something similar a few times when it took way too many seconds for the blower to start spinning, meanwhile the flame was "lazy" and smokey.  I don't know what caused the delay.  What you can do is prep the burn pot with your fire-starter material, turn on the stove and see if the blower starts immediately.  If you can manually close the damper all the way, do that and then light the pot, close the door and open the damper and make sure that pellets feed into it.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 8, 2011)

You have to be certain you have a really good fire going before closing the door. 

The fastest and easiest way to get a good fire going is to use a gas torch.


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## susb8383 (Feb 9, 2011)

Well, what happened is that it started off normal: when it ignited I got a good size flame. But instead of it slowly spreading through the pellets in the burn pot, it just burned out where it was.

I can tell that the exhaust fan is working on the 5 different speeds. But it doesn't seem like that strong a wind to me. Also as it's spinning on 3, for example, suddenly it backs off for a few seconds and then back to where it was before (I could hear it slow down).

I wish there was some way to test the wind coming out of the fan so I know if it's working properly or not.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 9, 2011)

Get one of these:  http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=magnehelic

ETA:  You likely should have kept the door open a bit longer until you had a larger area of pellets burning and a few coals glowing.  You have a fresh gasket on the stove so it doesn't allow the same amount of air into the unit that it was getting before.

If I don't pay attention to the amount of involved pellets and coals when I manually light the stove will go out as it is only idling the combustion blower until either loss of vacuum or fire is detected.


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## arnash (Feb 9, 2011)

"ETA:  You likely should have kept the door open a bit longer until you had a larger area of pellets burning and a few coals glowing."

   Yes, I learned that lesson today when only half my burn pot ignited before I quickly closed the door.  The un-lit side just wouldn't ignite even though it had several drops of lamp oil to help it.  It took quite a while before the flame finally spread to the other side. ( Perhaps a few more drops of lamp oil would have helped.)  So it's important to make sure that at least 2/3rds of the pot is burning to get the  fire going good.  I'll start using my self-igniting propane torch as soon as I find where I put it.  
    As for your blower output, it should be substantial since blower motors aren't weaklings.  Could you have a problem with your damper not being open far enough?  That would cut down on the flow to the pot.


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## susb8383 (Feb 17, 2011)

Hi,

Well you're right, leaving the door open longer solved the problem with it not igniting.

But...I've got a bigger problem. 

Way back near the beginning of this thread, I posted this:


			
				susb8383 said:
			
		

> Wow, it works too well now! I had the red dots on 2, the green on 3, and it overheated.
> 
> D'oh!
> 
> Does that have something to do with the damper? Should it be pushed in more or less?



This really is a huge problem; it gets way too hot. We have the exhaust fan on 1, the room blower fan on 5, and the damper at the recommended 2 inches. And it's still really hot. So hot that when I accidentally touched the pellet bag to the top of the hopper, it immediately burned a slash through the bag. My brand new heat baffle which has only been in there for a few weeks, now looks like this:







In trying to trouble shoot my half burn pot, I think I uncovered the heat problem. I put my vacuum on blow and held it to the hole behind the plug, to try to figure out if I really do have a clog. I could feel some air coming out from behind the heat exchanger tubes so I don't think I have a clog after all. So then I did something that probably isn't recommended...I opened up the right side panel and stuck my hand inside. I wanted to see if I could feel any air coming in there. Well I did feel air moving, but it wasn't from my vacuum. It's from the room blower fan.

I could feel it with the fan on 1 and I could really feel it with the fan on 5. It seems to be coming from the panel on the inside of the stove, behind the burn chamber, where the auger shoot is. Don't know if this picture is clear enough or not:






I assume I'm not supposed to feel air blowing in the back of my stove, correct? That would explain the heat problem, wouldn't it? Even though the room blower fan is working fine, this leak would mean that the fan isn't directing all the air where it should be going, correct?

So what do I do now? I suppose I have to remove that little panel, which I've been reluctant to do. Never took it off before. Actually never noticed it was there before.

Any advice?

Thanks, Susie


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 17, 2011)

Susie,

The area around the drop chute should be sealed it could be a direct shot into the fire box if things aren't sealed elsewhere (I don't know where the seals are on that stove).

One should look at all firebox penetrations.

ETA: Turn down the pellet feed.


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## arnash (Feb 17, 2011)

The room blower wouldn't be the cause of the air movement you felt except by causing air movement into the blower, sucking surrounding air in.  That will result in a slight breeze near the blower.   If the strength of the room air blower is plenty strong, then the excess heat output can only be from excess pellet feed.  Too much fuel produces too much heat.  If my auger is set to maximum, it runs non-stop without pauses and feeds so many pellets to the pot that the fire gets too strong.  It sounds like your fire is too hot, probably because of too fast of a pellet feed-rate


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## susb8383 (Feb 23, 2011)

arnash said:
			
		

> The room blower wouldn't be the cause of the air movement you felt except by causing air movement into the blower, sucking surrounding air in.  That will result in a slight breeze near the blower.   If the strength of the room air blower is plenty strong, then the excess heat output can only be from excess pellet feed.  Too much fuel produces too much heat.  If my auger is set to maximum, it runs non-stop without pauses and feeds so many pellets to the pot that the fire gets too strong.  It sounds like your fire is too hot, probably because of too fast of a pellet feed-rate



Well, we did replace the auger motor last year and we both thought that the new motor has a higher rpm than the old. And we noticed that with this new motor, even after the light on the control panel goes out, we can still hear it winding down. We really didn't start having this overheating issue until this last batch of pellets which are better quality than what we had last year. Maybe it's combination of the two. 

But how do I know it isn't also a problem with the blower air leaking out? The place I feel the air coming out isn't right near the blower. And the higher I put the blower, the stronger I feel the air.

If it is just a problem with the pellet feed, is the only way to fix it to buy a new auger motor? We've already tweaked the dials in the control panel so that the auger is at the lowest setting and the blower is at the highest. Having it be too hot when the combustion setting is 1 and the blower is 5 is a huge difference. You'd think that if the problem were just the feed rate, then maybe 1 & 2 or 1 & 3 would have problems, but 1 & 5?


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## Stovensen (Feb 24, 2011)

Susie,

When I bought my Quest Plus three years ago, I changed the auger motor, since the old one was mechanically worn out ( not electrically, though ).

The old auger motor was an ECM with 220 V, 50 hz, 1 RPM clearly written on it. See Photo.

The new auger motor is a Merkle and Korff with only a kode written on it. See photo. 

I bought the new motor from a dealer here in Denmark and, being no expert in Whitfield stoves, he couldn't guarantee that it was the right one as for RPMs and the direction of rotation. 

So, I benchtested it and it turned out that the MK is a 1.5 RPM with the correct direction of rotation.

It works fine, but obviously the pellet feed trimpot on the controlboard has to be tweeked down constantly. Just like on yours.

Now, who knows the exact RPMs of your auger motor? If it's more than 1.5 RPM I guess that would explain the excessive heat produced by your stove.

Take care, If you're making a benchtest. 120 V can be dangerous.

Another less dangerous way is to take some photos of the code written on your new auger motor and post them here... then I'm sure some of the nice people in here will be able to translate the code. 
Bo


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## arnash (Feb 24, 2011)

I wonder if you're noticing the important levels of the main operations that affect stove heat production.  The main level to judge is the volume of pellets being dumped into the burn pot.  If the volume isn't excessive, just moderate, and the stove is too hot,  then the heat produced isn't being expelled by the blower.  

The second level to judge is the size of the burn pot fire.  If it's large, then a lot of heat is being produced normally but only because it's being fed with lots of pellets.   

The third level to judge is the volume of air that the room blower is sending through the heat-transfer tubes.  If the air speed seems weak then the blower isn't operating at it's normal capacity.  It might need oiling.  If there's air being felt in the back interior of the stove, that may be a deliberate design feature to cool components, but if so, the question would be as to whether or not too much air is being "diverted" to the back.  If you can learn more about your stove, you should be able to figure-out if it's not operating normally.  If you have an owner's manual and haven't really studied it , now is the time.


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## susb8383 (Feb 24, 2011)

arnash said:
			
		

> I wonder if you're noticing the important levels of the main operations that affect stove heat production.  The main level to judge is the volume of pellets being dumped into the burn pot.  If the volume isn't excessive, just moderate, and the stove is too hot,  then the heat produced isn't being expelled by the blower.
> 
> The second level to judge is the size of the burn pot fire.  If it's large, then a lot of heat is being produced normally but only because it's being fed with lots of pellets.
> 
> The third level to judge is the volume of air that the room blower is sending through the heat-transfer tubes.  If the air speed seems weak then the blower isn't operating at it's normal capacity.  It might need oiling.  If there's air being felt in the back interior of the stove, that may be a deliberate design feature to cool components, but if so, the question would be as to whether or not too much air is being "diverted" to the back.  If you can learn more about your stove, you should be able to figure-out if it's not operating normally.  If you have an owner's manual and haven't really studied it , now is the time.



The flame is enormous! When the combustion setting is 1, the flame is as big as it used to be with the old auger/pellets on 5. So I think you're right about too many pellets being fed. 

Let me see if I can dig up some info on the old and new auger motors....


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 24, 2011)

Whitfield produced stoves that require 1 RPM (frequently not exactly 1 RPM) auger motors and 5.5 RPM motors, perhaps you got the wrong one, google and the numbers on that auger motor might answer the question.

ETA: And likely others but those were the common replacements I found when looking.


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## susb8383 (Feb 25, 2011)

Ok, the original motor that came with the stove was 1 RPM, 60 HZ, 55 Amps. 

It looks like the new one I bought is also 1 RPM. I don't know the other numbers. I had bought it off eBay and the details are now gone, but I can still see the description in my Paypal history as "AUGER FEED MOTOR for WHITFIELD PELLET STOVE - 1 RPM." It was from pelletstoveparts.com. This is the only auger motor for Whitfield that I see on their website, so I'm pretty sure it was a CW Maxi-torque:
http://www.pelletstoveparts.com/mm5...PSP&Product_Code=PP7000&Category_Code=Advplus

As I mentioned, one weird thing about the new motor is that after the red light goes off, we can still hear it winding down for a second or so. Is that normal?

So since both are 1 RPM, that doesn't explain my problem, right?


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 25, 2011)

Really need the numbers off of the motor to verify.

Website descriptions have been known to be wrong.

I can show you page after page of messed up descriptions on big box sites.


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## arnash (Feb 25, 2011)

Could the problem be that the rotation-speed controller is actually not working and it's operating at full-speed all the time?  Does the speed knob control the motor directly or is there an electronic component that controls the power to the auger, (which gets a signal from the control knob)?  Perhaps the speed control potentiameter  is burned-out.  I have a variable pot. light switch which I used to replace a light switch, but it's variable-current coil was blown, so it only worked at full power.  Perhaps the same thing has happened to your auger speed pot.


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## heat seeker (Feb 26, 2011)

You could mark a part of the auger or the motor output shaft with a marker, then watch it when it runs. At 1 RPM, it should take (TA DA!) one minute to make a full revolution. If it only runs 30 seconds, it should make Â½ turn. You might need to use a stopwatch, starting and stopping it as the motor starts and stops. With a minute of _accumulated_ time, the auger should have turned only one turn. Doing this will eliminate any question of the correctness of the motor. There are a lot of variables in play here, so eliminating them one by one will eventually get you to the problem.
The service manual might provide some help with the auger feed speeds. My St Croix has an 11.5 second cycle time, and the various feeds have certain time spans for the auger to run. For instance, at low speed it will run 1.5 seconds out of every 11.5 seconds, and so on. (How they got these times I don't knowâ€¦) You might be able to find similar information for your stove. If everything checks out with the feed systems, then you know the problem is elsewhere.
If your motor is variable speed, then the stopwatch part of this post obviously doesn't apply.


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## arnash (Feb 27, 2011)

You need to check to see if the slower auger speeds  take longer than 1 minute.  If it only operates a 1 rpm, then it's running at full speed all the time.  That will generally over-feed the burn pot and result in the excessive amount of flame and heat.


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## susb8383 (Mar 1, 2011)

Sigh...it seems every time I try to check something I find something else that's wrong...

So I opened up the back to check the auger label. It looks as it should: 60hz, 120v, 1rpm. But, when I removed the back, I found that there was a covering of wood dust collecting in that section. The auger motor itself had a layer on it, including the round part that spins (not the shaft, but that thing that resembles a washer coming out of the motor itself.)

I think that explains the weird sound. For a long time, even after the auger light went off, the motor itself would 'wind down,' kind of like an engine that's about to stall. It would do that for about a second after the light went off. Depending on the setting, sometimes it was still making that sound when the light came on for the next burst.

I took a paper towel and wiped off the gunk and then watched it run. It didn't make that sound anymore. Which makes me think that the crud was making it so that the motor wasn't stopping instantly even though it no longer had power.

Don't know if that's related to the heat problem or not. I also found that the dial on the control panel for the combustion air was set at the maximum. 

But getting back to the crud itself: a year ago I had removed the auger screw because we thought we had a clog. I thought I put all back as it was. It spins freely. But now I watched it closely and I can see that some debris is falling out from the circle around the auger screw. Each time it turns, a little big of wood dust falls out.

I don't know if all of these problems are related or not. But I know that I need to figure out why this dust is falling out and, once that's remedied, clean off the auger motor, turn down the combustion air dial, and see if that's any better.

So....my new question is does anyone know why debris is falling out where the auger screw turns? It must be something that I did when I took at the screw and put it back, but what I don't know. Any suggestions?

Sigh again...by the time I get all these problems resolved, it'll be spring!


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## Stovensen (Mar 1, 2011)

Susie,

Safety First... the most serious issue your Advantage Plus stove has, is by far the leak somewhere leading to flying embers in front of the stove.

I just got an idea to make a simple but efficient tool to leak-test the heat exchanger tubes. It requires a bit of soldering i'm afraid, but the tester can be made of these simple components:

One 1.5 Volt AA cell

One 1.5 Volt bulb

Two thin insulated electrical wires about two feet each.

The insulation on the tips of the wires is now removed and soldered properly between the bulb and AA cell, so the bulb is lit. A piece of insulation tape is also needed around the bulb so it won't get shorted when used during the leak test.

Now, turn off any disturbing light around your stove and lower the "light probe" slowly down through the exchanger tubes one at a time while you very carefully are observing for any light passing through any possible leaks/cracks. This light-test should be able to reveal even very small leaks in the tubes.

Before making the test, the exterior surface of the tubes should be cleaned for fly ash, so it won't block the light in case there is/are any leaks. Let's hope not.

BTW, that debris falling from the lower auger bushing also was an issue on my Quest Plus before I changed the nylatron bushing... a large gap/clearence between the augershaft and endplate allowed a lot of fines/saw dust to drop down inside the stove. Some of these fines would get sucked up by the roomblower, since its intake is right next to the augershaft on my Quest Plus. Perhaps this could explain the flying embers? But fines passing through the heat exchanger system most likely wouldn't get ignited. Just saw dust flying around in front of the stove.

Did you also change the nylatron bushing ( and end-plate ? ) when you changed the augermotor?  

Good luck and keep us posted
Bo


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## susb8383 (Mar 2, 2011)

Hi,

I still haven't been able to figure out how to access the ends of the heat exchanger tubes. Anyone with an Advantage, feel free to chime in. If that panel comes off, they don't make it obvious how to do it.

Incidentally the stray spark wasn't anywhere near where the air blows out. It was at the left side of the stove, near where the side panel connects. Could this have been caused by a hole in the tubes? Or maybe because my center fire brick is so worn?

I never saw any kind of bushing on the auger. Is that something that's visible normally or would I only see that if I took the auger screw out? As I recall, there was just the shaft, the screw, and the end plate.
Hmm...I see that the service manual for the Advantage IIT (I have an Advantage Plus, but it's probably the same) mentioned an oilite bushing for the auger. Hmm...

[edit] Oh, sorry, didn't answer your question. Nope, I didn't replace anything with the auger. Just removed it, checked for a clog (which there wasn't), and put everything back.


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## susb8383 (Mar 2, 2011)

Saw this from another post (the owner has an Advantage II):
"So, I ordered the lower bushing with plate from Lennox.  The new plate is â€œupgradedâ€ with a plastic bushing that has a nut on the back side.  My old bushing wobbled in the plate so I was happy to see that it could be locked down.  I am not sure how long that plastic bushing will hold up, but we will see.  The bushing seemed to be installed backwards on the plate.  The nut was on the inside of the plate so that, once installed, the pellets were getting crunched up against it.  Mike, I found a picture on your site that showed the nut on the motor side of the plate and reinstalled it correctly.  That seemed to do the trick.  "

Maybe they've improved the bushing? I didn't really notice a bushing as I mentioned, but that's probably because it sounds like the old one is brass.


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## susb8383 (Mar 2, 2011)

Ok, more stuff. This is from the description of an ebay auction for the end plate/nylatron bushing:

"This Bearing Endplate assembly is a direct replacement for all Whitfield stoves that came with the old style brass bushing. If you have the older style bronze - brass bearing, you will likely find that it is loose in the mounting plate. It is recommended that you replace it with this Nylatron style bearing. Continuing to use your stove with a loose bearing will cause undo stress on the auger motor and will significantly decrease it's life expectancy. With normal use, this Nylatron style bearing would need to be replaced approximately every 7 - 10 years, depending on how much you use your stove.

To check your Nylatron bearing for excess wear, see if the auger shaft wobbles where it passes through the bearing on the very bottom. It should have very little play in it. Another tell tale sign that your bearing is worn is finding an unusually large pile of fine sawdust under the base of the auger. "

Do y'all agree? I saw another post somewhere (I think on Mike's site) and the person said they just found another brass bushing at their local hardware store that fit which fixed their problem.

Do you think I should buy this to fix my debris problem?


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## Stovensen (Mar 2, 2011)

Your Advantage Plus is so new that it most likely has the nylatron version like my Quest Plus which is from 1998.

The quotes you found there says it all very precisely... if the augershaft has so much clearance that it can wobble, the nylatron bushing certainly must be replaced.

$17.10 at Wood Heat Stoves:

http://woodheatstoves.com/auger-bushing-threaded-nylatron-p-16917.html

Now, let's hope that your present nylatron bushing is not worn so much that the auger shaft has been allowed to grind too much in the end plate, in that case you might consider to renew that as well.

Wood Heat Stoves has a kit consisting of both nylatron bushing and end plate $37

http://woodheatstoves.com/whitfield-auger-endplate-pp4010-psp-whs-p-12867.html


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## arnash (Mar 2, 2011)

This is pertinent info in relation to my Whitfield also since I have the same problem with sawdust dropping from the end of the auger.  Just my bushing must be worn out.   I figured it was something like that but wasn't aware that a bad bushing could put a strain on the auger motor.  I'll have to work on that.  I guess the fact that the motor isn't making any noises isn't necessarily a confirmation that all is well.


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## susb8383 (Mar 3, 2011)

Stovensen said:
			
		

> Your Advantage Plus is so new that it most likely has the nylatron version like my Quest Plus which is from 1998.



It's about 15 years old.

But I will pull out the auger and look. It didn't leak at all until I took the auger apart and put it back together. But I didn't do anything to the bushing...


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## Stovensen (Mar 3, 2011)

susb8383 said:
			
		

> It's about 15 years old.
> 
> But I will pull out the auger and look. It didn't leak at all until I took the auger apart and put it back together. But I didn't do anything to the bushing...



Well, then it's about the same generation as my stove and most likely equipped with the nylatron. 

If, however, it has the brass ( bronze? ) bushing, then this photo below of an older style augershaft and some brass bushings may give you a hint as to what you should be looking for in that case.

The nylatron type can be seen on the Wood Heat Stoves web site through the link that I posted further up in this thread.

The signs of a badly worn bushing is easy to get proof for... with the stove turned off and unplugged, take a firm grip on the augermotor and shake it: If there's any excessive clearance between augershaft and endplate, you'll discover it immediately.


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## susb8383 (Mar 4, 2011)

Ok, I took the auger apart again. You're right--there's a nylatron bushing. I never noticed that because it looks like it's part of the end plate. It was pretty worn so I'm ordering a new one.

But I'm not getting it from WoodHeatStoves, much as I'd like to. They really need to fix their shipping weights. Dave, if you're reading this...a little bushing weighs a few ounces, tops. They want to charge me over $10 for shipping as if it weighed 1.25 pounds. The same thing happened when I ordered a sheet of anti-vibration gasket material from them. It was really light and came in a padded envelope but they charged me a huge amount for shipping as if it weighed 2 pounds.

It's just a setting in their shopping cart, but they really need to have someone look at that problem.

Also, the top of the auger was all black and sooty, probably because of my heat problem.

I went to You Do it Electronics and got an electric cord and connectors so I can plug the auger motor directly into an outlet and test the RPMs. I'm going to compare the old motor with the new.

[Edit: Well I ended up ordering it from Wood Heat Stoves after all. They all charge a huge amount for shipping, except for an Ebay auction that charged $5.00 but wanted $22 for the bushing.]


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## Wood Heat Stoves (Mar 4, 2011)

susb8383 said:
			
		

> Ok, I took the auger apart again. You're right--there's a nylatron bushing. I never noticed that because it looks like it's part of the end plate. It was pretty worn so I'm ordering a new one.
> 
> But I'm not getting it from WoodHeatStoves, much as I'd like to. They really need to fix their shipping weights. Dave, if you're reading this...a little bushing weighs a few ounces, tops. They want to charge me over $10 for shipping as if it weighed 1.25 pounds. The same thing happened when I ordered a sheet of anti-vibration gasket material from them. It was really light and came in a padded envelope but they charged me a huge amount for shipping as if it weighed 2 pounds.
> 
> ...



with 16,000 parts online, not all can ship usps, but this one can
please always feel free to contact me for a discount!
i'd gladly ship a bushing for $4.95

dave


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## susb8383 (Mar 6, 2011)

Wood Heat Stoves said:
			
		

> with 16,000 parts online, not all can ship usps, but this one can
> dave



Yeah, I know. I use ZenCart too. One of the limitations of it is that you can't specify a shipping method by product without custom programming. No worries.

But I did find the problem! I was able to plug the auger motor directly into an outlet and measure the rotation (thanks, Dave, for that tip on your video about drawing a line on the shaft and motor housing. I was wondering how to mark the rotation).

Even though the label on the motor says 1RPM, it went for almost a full half rotation past that after 60 seconds, so it was more like 1.4 RPMs. So I was getting about 50% more pellets being fed than I should have. No wonder my stove was running so hot!

I emailed the person I bought it from on eBay. Hopefully I can get a refund, but since I had it for over a year, maybe I can't. 

But if I buy a new motor, I really hope I don't find the same thing. Is this common?

Well at least that's one problem figured out.

--Susie


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## Stovensen (Mar 6, 2011)

This is good news  

As mentioned in a previous post my stove works perfectly with the 1.5 RPM auger motor, but the fuel feed trimpot has to be tweaked down permanently. 
This trimpot, you know, is on the control board... a small screwdriver is needed to turn it.

In some cases it's an advantage with a faster rotating auger... for instance when I burn the thick 8 mm pellets.

8 mm is the maximum diameter for the auger to handle and the flow of pellets is decreased remarkably with 8 mm pellets in the hopper, but with the 1.5 RPM auger motor there's allways plenty of RPMs to tweek from ;-) 

BTW, did you ever check whether something on the door hinge got bent when one of the rivets popped out? You know, exactly the same happened to me shortly after installing it three years ago... 
As you also experienced, the door suddenly jumped off and was hanging in just one hinge :bug: 

After this there was a leak at the hingeside, because one of the hinges got bent a little. I had to remove the sidepanel in order get acces and repair the bent hinge, but after that it worked just fine and it still does.

I was wondering if the asymmetrical burn might be caused by this?

Just my 2 cents.

Bo

PS, plugging the ignitor hole also made the burn more symmetrical.


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## susb8383 (Mar 6, 2011)

Hi,

We already had the pellet feed control on the control panel turned down to the lowest settings, and it was still so hot that the flame was enormous, even on setting #1. So I think I'm going back to the 1RPM motor.

Yes, what I did with the door is replace the gasket which had been the original. When I took off the door to do so, I could tell that one of the hinge pins was bent (the lower one). So I ordered more, but in the meantime, I got a metal rod from the hardware store to serve as a temporary replacement. I also wanted to use the rod to make sure the hinges on the door and the hinges on the stove body were all in alignment. I suspected they weren't, but it turns out they were perfect.

After I put the door back on with the new gasket, I adjusted the hinges so that both the top and bottom were even (one had been closer in which was causing the door to hang slightly crooked and causing an asymmetrical wear on the hinge pins.) But...when they were even and the door felt like it was closing straight (not shifting up or down when I press the latch onto the pin), there was a big gap in the top right corner of the door so that I could see into the chamber. Now I know why the door had been adjusted to hang crookedly; it's the only way to keep that gap from happening.

So now my door is crooked again, just slightly, but I sealed up the hole. I think what I might try next is stay with the metal rod but put some washers on both the top and bottom of the hinges. My theory is that it will raise the door up so that the gap disappears but still keep the door level so that it won't cause the hinge pins to bend over time.

--Susie


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## susb8383 (Mar 6, 2011)

Oh, there's also one more piece to the puzzle about the burn pot that I didn't mention.

On the left side of the ultra grate, one of the rods had come unwelded and is hanging. So this means there's a big gap. It could be that the faster RPM of the auger (and also possibly a defective combustion fan; next thing to check) is causing the entire burn pot to fill up, but since the left side has this extra gap, more pellets are falling through so it looks like it is burning correctly.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Mar 6, 2011)

susb8383 said:
			
		

> Oh, there's also one more piece to the puzzle about the burn pot that I didn't mention.
> 
> On the left side of the ultra grate, one of the rods had come unwelded and is hanging. So this means there's a big gap. It could be that the faster RPM of the auger (and also possibly a defective combustion fan; next thing to check) is causing the entire burn pot to fill up, but since the left side has this extra gap, more pellets are falling through so it looks like it is burning correctly.



If the burn pot is damaged to that point then the pellets under the grate are going to interfere with the air flow through that part of the burn pot.  That in turn will cause burn issues.


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## susb8383 (Mar 10, 2011)

So got my replacement auger bushing in the mail today. But before I put everything back, I have a question.

The end of my auger is full of soot because of my high heat problem:






Does this matter or do I need to clean this off before I put it back? If I do, what should I use? I tried glass cleaner but it hardly did anything.

Thanks, Susie


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## SmokeyTheBear (Mar 10, 2011)

Just like on the window a damp cloth stuck in some ash, polish with it, then a clean damp cloth, followed by a dry cloth to get what is left.

The soot probably doesn't matter but for neatnik in you the above should help.


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## susb8383 (Apr 1, 2011)

Ok, so I finally got a replacement auger motor from these guys today. Side note: I will NEVER buy a stove motor from eBay again! These guys were sooo slow, every little thing was like pulling teeth. Every email I sent them got no response for 3 or 4 days until I emailed "did you get my last email?" and sometimes even then I got no response for days. I'm going through Dave and Wood Heat Stoves next time.

Anyway, the replacement motor, which is a refurbished one since the warranty had expired, is better but still not perfect. 

Instead of it being a 1.45 RPM which is what the one I returned was, it is a 1.2. The label still says it should be 1.

They warned me about this and claimed that the 1.2 is the speed when there is no load. This is totally untrue because it was exactly the same when I plugged it into the wall and had it sitting on the floor as when I had it hooked up to the stove with pellets in the hopper. Besides, if this were true, then bench testing the original motor would result in way more than 1.45 when it was sitting on the floor.

I'm just wondering if anyone has heard this claim before, that motors marked as 1RPM are really 1.2? 

Thanks, Susie


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## SmokeyTheBear (Apr 1, 2011)

I have no idea what the slop is those things, however I do know that they frequently are not exactly what they are sold as.

Folks have been making fairly accurate ac motors for decades that are used in clocks one would think they could get it closer than they seem to be able to.


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## susb8383 (Apr 1, 2011)

Hi,

I just talked to a very helpful person at Wood Heat Stoves.

He had never heard that, but just as he was pulling a similar model off the shelf to bench test it while I waited, he asked a coworker who confirmed that all the 1 RPMs are really 1.2. He said the same thing: the 1 RPM applies to the speed at full load. Whatever 'full load' means because I had almost a full bag of pellets in the hopper when I tested it.

Wood Heat Stoves sells two different motors: the original factory motor and then an aftermarket motor (MaxiTorq.) Both of these are dropped shipped from Lennox so he couldn't bench test those for me, but he gave me the Lennox tech support number.

I just called it. The tech I talked to, with a little prompting, said there's no difference in the RPMs for those two models. They are both 1.2. (He first said 1, but then when I explained that they are all labeled 1, but are really 1.2 when you bench test them, he said both of the motors they sell are 1.2. Didn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling since he first said 1, but when I asked if he's sure, he said "Yes, Mam.").

So there you have it. I'll put my stove back together and let er rip (after oiling the exhaust fan. TIP: When I tried finding the 3-in-1 oil in the blue bottle mentioned in other threads, Home Depot said I'd have to go to a stove store, but Robinson Hardware had it).

[Edit: By the way, I did put the new bushing in (didn't bother cleaning the soot off the auger) and then spun it by hand. No debris falling out! Yay!)


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## SmokeyTheBear (Apr 1, 2011)

Lots of things the big boxes don't carry that some local hardware store has.


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## susb8383 (Apr 2, 2011)

Hi Everyone,

I just want to report that my original problem of half the burn pot filling up is fixed  Whoo Hoo! The stove has been burning for almost 24 hours now without the problem.

So to summarize this incredibly long thread:
It looks like the whole problem was caused by the auger motor having too high an RPM. The fact that the left side didn't fill up is probably caused by my missing bar on that side of the burn pot.

But along the way I solved other problems I found:

Replaced the bushing on the auger end plate that was causing a shower of sawdust to rain down on the auger motor, causing a very disturbing noise
Discovered plugs unique to the Advantage Plus that need to have ash cleaned out from behind
Replaced the door gasket
Oiled the combustion blower
Adjusted the way the door hangs somewhat

A big, hearty thank you to everyone who has kept with this for so long and gave me such valuable advice.

--Susie


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## SmokeyTheBear (Apr 2, 2011)

Just in time to shut the stove off and clean it up for the no burn season.

Glad you got all of the little "issues" taken care of.


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