# Life/career advice needed (Getting a Masters degree)



## Badfish740 (Oct 4, 2013)

Ok hearth.com'ers...I need to change course in life, well sort of.  Here's the deal:

I'm 31 soon to be 32.  I'm married with a beautiful two year old daughter.  My wife is a teacher with a Masters degree and makes good money/is on a clear career path.  She wants to stay at the high school where she teaches now and eventually retire from there.  I have a government job (Same job since college-been here seven years) with great benefits but I've risen as far as I can with the degree I have (BA in History), and the hours are long and the pay is low.  I also have a 60-75 minute commute.  Getting a Masters in Public Administration would allow me to move into a more management oriented position and utilize the skills I already have, just at a higher level.  Luckily I live relatively close to Rutgers University and they offer a lot of their classes online so I wouldn't even have to physically go there most of the time.  The problem is that my schedule coupled with my commute still wouldn't make it very easy for me to take classes.  So I thought of this scenario:

I could leave my current job and go work for UPS as a package handler.  There is a 5:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. shift that would allow me to be home with my daughter during the day (thus saving $800 a month on daycare) and still keep a normal schedule-ie: I could get home at 11:00 p.m. hit the sack, and then be up with my wife in the morning, helping her get out of the house and then watch my daughter until she gets home at 3:30.  I would take most of my classes online and just fit in schoolwork whenever possible.  I figure I could finish the degree in three years (it's supposed to take two years, but you have up to four years to finish) and be back out looking for a job by the time I'm 35.  

I have no doubt that I can do it/manage it, but I wonder how HR folks will look at my resume?  Will their balk at the fact that I took time off from the career track in order to get my degree?  Or are they used to seeing unconventional looking resumes since the economy has turned upside down?  I'd also be curious to hear from other people who have done the same/similar things in order to either change or advance their careers.


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## Highbeam (Oct 4, 2013)

Hang tight at your current job. The market is not healthy enough to leave a sure thing. I am very thankful to be employed when I see so many who aren't.


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## Jags (Oct 4, 2013)

Badfish- it has been reported (yet I don't really agree) that employers are less likely to hire a person that has been out of work for a lengthy period of time.  I don't know if that really applies here because of you looking at a job with UPS, but it is a time lapse for your "field".  Just tossing that out there.


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## daveswoodhauler (Oct 4, 2013)

When you have kids, everything changes. Who carries the benefits in your family? Reason I ask is that when my wife used to teach, her health insurance rates were appx 50% of mine, and I am the one that works at an insurance company.

Sounds like you have already done some cost analysis on the wages...I would do the same comparison on the bennies.
(You might be losing $800 month just in benefits)

And, like the prior posters...my vote would be for you to keep your current job and work on the masters..albeit a bit slower....most employers will look favorable to those folks that are enrolled in a degree program even though they might not have attained the degree yet.
Good luck


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## Badfish740 (Oct 4, 2013)

daveswoodhauler said:


> When you have kids, everything changes. Who carries the benefits in your family? Reason I ask is that when my wife used to teach, her health insurance rates were appx 50% of mine, and I am the one that works at an insurance company.
> 
> Sounds like you have already done some cost analysis on the wages...I would do the same comparison on the bennies.
> (You might be losing $800 month just in benefits)
> ...



It's a tough call which is why I asked for outside advice-staying here and doing the Masters is easier said than done.  My hours right now usually run about 9-6 and I have an 75 minute commute on either end.  The time is just really tough to find.  Also, there is no room to advance here so it's not as if the Masters is going to benefit me here-I have to go elsewhere regardless.  As far as benefits, I actually carry them now-the school district pays my wife half what they would be paying in premiums not to take them. UPS benefits are actually quite good-package handlers are in the Teamsters Union and the union supplies the benefits, which would be another big reason for taking the job.  They also offer tuition assistance-it's not a lot, but its something.  All that said, there is still the issue of the gap in work history...


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## festerw (Oct 4, 2013)

Stay where you are for right now, my wife is an executive assistant at a place she hates and finished an MBA program last year in hopes of going somewhere else (the company gave tuition assistance at least).  She has applied for over 30 jobs in the past year and hasn't got past a 1st interview with any.  She's ended up in a position where she is not being hired because she is overqualified for an administrative/executive assistant but underqualified to be hired a manager, director, etc.

Long story short, don't bank on another degree to get you a better job.  Right now I make $7/hour more than she does and only have an Associates Degree.


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## vinny11950 (Oct 4, 2013)

Like others have said, stay at your current job.

I am not sure a Masters degree will make much of a difference in this economic environment.

I have a friend who works for New York City in a civil service position.  The way he climbs the ladder is by taking civil service exams, passing, and then hunting for job openings in different departments.

Not sure if it applies to your field, but in my book, staying in your job and then looking for a better job is the way to go.  Try networking with people who are doing what you want to do so you get a feel of what it takes.

Good luck.


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## mass_burner (Oct 4, 2013)

I'm going to disagree with the consensus. Let me say first, I have always had a bigger appetite for risk than average. I am an independent consultant in the IT field with an LLC. How the screeners go through resumes changes, I remember last year, I was hiring a programmer for my client and he didn't want to see anybody who had been at their current job for more than 2 years. He figured those folks were the dead weight that didn't have the stuff to find a better job until they were forced to by layoff etc.

Your resume is just a tool to get you a meeting, it should be a tease to get them curious. There are ways to emphasize what you want; and ways to downplay other things. Once your in the meeting, face-to-face, then if asked, you can explain anything. There are two things I would advise you before you do anything: 1. do you have a liquid safety fund, at least 6 months core living expenses, better 1 year. 2. do you have term life/disabilty insurance outside of your employer. At you age, it should be cheap. If you have these two covered. It puts you in a better position to take a risk. Your field may different than mine, but I guess I'm saying that taking a calculated risk may be scary, but it could pay off.


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## firebroad (Oct 4, 2013)

Badfish, I apologize if I am totally wrong, but it seems to me that you are suffering from burnout. 
Getting your Masters IS doable, you said yourself Rutgers offers online classes.  It is just going to be tough.  And expensive.
Are you a State or Federal Employee?  I am sure either one has other job opportunities in various branches of Government.  I was working for my states' Department of Health & Mental Hygiene, burned out AND broke!  I was dipping into my savings just to make ends meet, and here I was 58 years old, going on interviews!  I managed to get a dream job (for my qualifications) at another State Agency, the work is easy, the perks are great, and my paycheck is $7000.00 more than it was!

Though Mass_burner states many wise and important points that I agree with, there is no rule that states that a prospective employer wants someone who will disappear in two years.  I have been working for Maryland for 26 years, and I have changed agencies twice.  I have gone on many interviews, and all were impressed with my record.  In fact, I sat in on an interview once, and one of the candidates had had seven jobs in 10 years--no one wanted to hire him.

If there is any way you can keep working where you are and go to school, that is wonderful.  But consider that you might be able to do a transfer to another government agency that might make your education more accessible.  Whatever you decide, we're all pulling for you!!


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## mass_burner (Oct 4, 2013)

firebroad said:


> there is no rule that states that a prospective employer wants someone who will disappear in two years.  I have been working for Maryland for 26 years, and I have changed agencies twice.  I have gone on many interviews, and all were impressed with my record.  In fact, I sat in on an interview once, and one of the candidates had had seven jobs in 10 years--no one wanted to hire him.


 
true, no rule. my example was simply to illustrate that employers are fickle. that what they consider an advantage today, may be a disandvantage in a few years time depending on the macro environment and that you shoudn't base your professional decsions on this alone.


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## Highbeam (Oct 4, 2013)

What makes you think a masters in such a general field like PA is actually going to get you somewhere? Is your lack of that masters holding you back or is it something else like experience or a sucky bachelor's degree. The only positions in government that I've seen benefit from a masters are management, high science, and director positions. You need to have luck, gray hair, and supervisory experience in your current role before the masters will allow you to pop up into management.

High high education seldom gets you anywhere if your current degree gets you a package handler position. Perhaps you need to consider a different bachelor's degree in a better field. Engineering? IT? Then top that with a masters if/when you see the need.

A masters in PA on top of a sucky bachelor's degree is still sucky. Perhaps the work you did for your bachelor's degree can mostly apply to a more marketable second bachelor's degree.


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## Highbeam (Oct 4, 2013)

Oh and I hold it against an applicant if they are so unloyal and uncommitted that they can't hold a job for several years. That two year itch is not something to be rewarded.


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## Badfish740 (Oct 4, 2013)

I really appreciate all of these thoughts-it's a lot to think about.  I want to respond to a few points and clear some things up that might not be clear.



firebroad said:


> Badfish, I apologize if I am totally wrong, but it seems to me that you are suffering from burnout.



That is a big part of it.  Ok, out with it, I work for a legislator (I don't like to advertise my line of work online)-I got into this because I had an interest in politics and government.  I've done pretty much everything there is to do in a legislative office-constituent services, policy analysis, grants related work, community and government relations, etc...  It's interesting work and I've enjoyed it but its hard on a family (nights, weekends, long hours, etc...), and I really DON'T enjoy the politics anymore-things have simply gotten too nasty.  I'd much rather do government relations for a company or work in government at an agency.  Many of the positions I've applied for say "Masters preferred."



Highbeam said:


> What makes you think a masters in such a general field like PA is actually going to get you somewhere?



Because many of the people who hold jobs like the one I'd like to have.



Highbeam said:


> Is your lack of that masters holding you back



As far as I can tell, yes.



Highbeam said:


> High high education seldom gets you anywhere if your current degree gets you a package handler position.



I don't follow-the UPS job is a means to an end.  Obviously I'm way overqualified, I'm just using it to get somewhere else.



Highbeam said:


> or is it something else like experience or a sucky bachelor's degree. The only positions in government that I've seen benefit from a masters are management, high science, and director positions. You need to have luck, gray hair, and supervisory experience in your current role before the masters will allow you to pop up into management.



I've got the supervisory experience, (the gray hair is coming), and luck?  I dunno...



Highbeam said:


> Oh and I hold it against an applicant if they are so unloyal and uncommitted that they can't hold a job for several years. That two year itch is not something to be rewarded.



Is seven years not several?


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## wazzu (Oct 4, 2013)

I have been a fed employee for some time now and found that education has not helped me advance at all. It is more about meeting the minimum qualifications so you can get a passing score (you do not need college for that). Then the real key is to know or have a friend that knows the selecting official. It has not worked out real well for me, having education that is. Most of the people getting selected for promotions in my agency are suck-up scum and "networkers". Its just a job man, find your success in your family and hobbies. PS, I have been working without pay all week. Ha, sometimes I wonder about myself.


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## jharkin (Oct 4, 2013)

A few thoughts....

Im not HR, but as a hiring manager I can say that looking at resume's Ive only ever been scared off by a gap in work directly related to the applicants field when there is no good explanation for it.  What scares me off more is applicants who are under 40 but have a 5 page resume because they change jobs every 2 years.  That tells me if I hire them, I would waste a year on training and then just have to do it again.

Also, to add to what others have said - the market is TOUGH.  especially for management level positions. I know folks who have gone 12-18 months before finding something, and most of the time the key is to have an in.. a network... somebody in the org to recommend you. A buddy of mine just started looking -  30 applications got 27 ignores, 2 immediate rejections, and one that went 4 rounds of interviews including exams and psych evaluations before being rejected. And we know 2 VP level guys who work at the company he was applying to that would give him a recommendation internally.


FWIW, Ive only got a bachelors and have managed to make it up to director level management (staff of 30-50 on 3 continents). Once you have been in an organization a long time its more about making the right friends and impressing key high level folks than what your resume says.  But I'm talking private sector - I'm sure .gov is different.


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## semipro (Oct 4, 2013)

I'm still trying get past the fact that your teacher wife gets paid well and gets home at 3:30.
My teacher wife's pay is pitiful and she rarely leaves work before 5:30 after working from 7:30 on with a 20 minute lunch break.

My whining here may actually result in a constructive comment:
you'll need to consider that your wife may get "tenure" even if its not called that and that whatever path you take should result in her being able to keep her current position without you having to endure a long commute.  The costs associated with commuting are often way underestimated.

I hire MS and PhD level professionals and would look unfavorably on an applicant that left a position in their field even to enable educational advancement.
Perhaps you could wait it out a bit and find a job in your field that is closer to home (or Rutgers) and then start your masters?

Edit: the time I most enjoyed with my young children was the pre bedtime and bedtime hours.  I wouldn't have missed those for anything.  Tucking them in, reading them stories, making up stories together, and discussing their day was probably the highlight of my life as a father.

2nd Edit: Wow, I just realized that my eyes were watering after making the recollections associated with my first edit.  Maybe its the 14 hour work day and subsequent margarita kicking in...maybe not.


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## homebrewz (Oct 4, 2013)

You need to make a list of the positives and negatives and carefully weigh each one. You might interview some of the faculty 
and find out how others have made it work. In a program like that, there are probably a lot of "non-traditional" students. 
You can also seek the advice of a career counselor, which might be a worthwhile investment. 

I'm not sure what entity of government you're in, but you're in.. and the time put in should transfer to another position
and count towards retirement, etc. Perhaps you could find something at another office or part-time for a while? 

I'd have to disagree that leaving work to pursue higher education would be looked upon unfavorably. I think that's likely to be a 
slim percentage of employers. I think it shows a drive towards self-improvement and a desire to learn. Of course, if you do have 
a string of 2 year stints at jobs before grad school, that would not look so favorably. Fortunately, you do not. It all depends on the 
candidate. 

You do, perhaps, sound burnt out, which is not good. However, you are taking steps to change that situation, which is great. 
Good luck.


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## jebatty (Oct 5, 2013)

At your age I was frustrated as well, even though I had a good job. That was 33 years ago. I stuck it out, looked for job expansion opportunities in what I was doing, and only made changes when I had a new position in hand and did not involve a job interruption. 
The frustration passed, jobs improved, and life went on much better that I expected. 

The exception to the general advice to keep your current job might be if you were to change fields completely. Our son was in management, saw little possible opportunity for advancement, left his job (supported by his wife with a good job and loans) and went into a completely different field with a PhD in Clinical Psychology after 4 years of additional education. He landed an excellent job. The job interruption was irrelevant.


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## Badfish740 (Oct 5, 2013)

semipro said:


> I'm still trying get past the fact that your teacher wife gets paid well and gets home at 3:30.  My teacher wife's pay is pitiful and she rarely leaves work before 5:30 after working from 7:30 on with a 20 minute lunch break.



I guess "good" is subjective, but her salary is in the high 50s.  Since mine is currently in the mid 40s, that seems "good" to me.  As for leaving at 3:30, the last bell rings at 2:05 and she is contractually obligated to stay until 3:00 for students who need help, etc...  Luckily she works literally minutes away from our house and my daughters daycare-if my daughter were to stay past 3:30 it would cost us a lot more than $800 a month.  Her school is also very technology heavy-she has a school issued iPad (so does every student) and Mac, and everything is cloud based, so she is able to do much of the "grunt work" (grading, grade book, emails/parent communication) from home.



semipro said:


> you'll need to consider that your wife may get "tenure" even if its not called that and that whatever path you take should result in her being able to keep her current position without you having to endure a long commute.  The costs associated with commuting are often way underestimated



We wanted to live in a rural area and are paying the price for it I guess.  Obviously for her it was easier to find work close to home, but for me the jobs are mostly in the big populations centers (Trenton, Newark, New Brunswick)-all of which we live at least 40 miles from.  My best hope is to find a job with more set hours and maybe a work from home option one day a week or something.  My neighbor works from home every Friday and loves it.



semipro said:


> Edit: the time I most enjoyed with my young children was the pre bedtime and bedtime hours.  I wouldn't have missed those for anything.  Tucking them in, reading them stories, making up stories together, and discussing their day was probably the highlight of my life as a father.





wazzu said:


> Its just a job man, find your success in your family and hobbies.



I just wanted to respond to these two points because they jumped out at me.  This is honestly my real goal.  Right now I only tuck my daughter in on the weekends, but she can't possibly stay up until I get home during the week.  I hate that.  I do get her ready for daycare and drop her off in the morning which is nice.  Also, before we had her I was barely keeping up with having enough wood for the winter.  Now every weekend (the ones when I'm not working) is a choice between spending quality time with her and catching up on collecting/cutting/splitting or the million other things to do around the house.  It's also frustrating because we are friends with most of the young families at church who all live locally and want to get the kids together, etc... Apparently I'm the only one of the dads who who doesn't have a "normal" job where I'm home by 5:30-6:00 so when they get together for a potluck dinner or something on a Wednesday night my wife always has to go alone.  

Well so far I've reevaluated taking time off to get the degree and reevaluated the degree I get.  I'm determined to do SOMETHING by January so that I can start the Spring semester.  Thanks guys.


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## jebatty (Oct 5, 2013)

I think 33 years ago I was where you are now - frustrated with my career direction. I looked for opportunities while holding my current job, made changes only after landing the new position, and life turned out better than expected.

The exception to the general advice of keep your current job might be if you change fields completely. Our son was in management with little opportunity for advancement, he quit his job with the support of his wife and loans and obtained a PhD in Clinical Psychology, landed an excellent job with a great future, and the 4 year job interruption was irrelevant.


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## Badfish740 (Oct 5, 2013)

jebatty said:


> I think 33 years ago I was where you are now - frustrated with my career direction. I looked for opportunities while holding my current job, made changes only after landing the new position, and life turned out better than expected.



If 33 years from now I have kids with great careers, my wife by my side, a 1500SF shop, and a gasser with 1000 gallons of storage, I'll consider myself a success 



jebatty said:


> The exception to the general advice of keep your current job might be if you change fields completely. Our son was in management with little opportunity for advancement, he quit his job with the support of his wife and loans and obtained a PhD in Clinical Psychology, landed an excellent job with a great future, and the 4 year job interruption was irrelevant.



I'm not looking to change but rather advance, which seems as though really leans toward staying put and getting the degree.  I'm going to talk with a career counselor at Rutgers about where I want to be and how their programs can work with my crazy life.


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## Ashful (Oct 5, 2013)

I did exactly what you are proposing, and it was the best move I ever made.  I did it at an even worse time in the job market, and before the complicating factor of kids.  After 3 years in school, I was able to double my salary.  More on HR shortly, when I'm typing on a computer, instead of a phone.


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## Redbarn (Oct 5, 2013)

Joful said:


> I did exactly what you are proposing, and it was the best move I ever made.  I did it at an even worse time in the job market, and before the complicating factor of kids.  After 3 years in school, I was able to double my salary.  More on HR shortly, when I'm typing on a computer, instead of a phone.



I'm with Joful. Plan it well and go for it.
I did the same thing and had no qualms when both my kids did it too.

The safe option isn't...


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## stee6043 (Oct 5, 2013)

A career change/break is a big decision.  Only you will know the right answer for you.

One thing I can offer is that completing an "online degree" is not as easy as most people may think.  Many respected schools offer online/video classes these days.  If the courses are coming from a "real school" you can rest assured it's not going to be a walk in the park even with the nearly infinite flexibility offered by video courses.

I have two masters degrees that were primarily video based from a "real school".  It took me 4 years to complete the two degrees.  It's very, very easy to get burned out if you think you can take two classes per semester and also work a job and be part of a family.  Plan on one class per semester and then project how long you think it should take.  And plan on taking a semester or two off, just in case things like baby # 2 happen.

You'll really enjoy the team project conference calls with the ornery two year old in the back ground.  It's a blast!  If you're a real gluten for punishment knock the wife up with #2, start the classes and go for it!  Hammer down.

In my opinion advanced degrees are an important part of a well rounded resume for those that want to advance within corporate America.  They don't make sense for everyone, they are not a singular answer for those wanting to be "management" and they can be very expensive.  But if you have the focus and drive and can handle the debt load, it's a great investment (in my opinion).  And last, these days MBA's are pretty much a dime a dozen.  If you want to differentiate yourself from the 1000's of other people out there with MBA's consider getting a specialized degree with some kind of business/operations emphasis that isn't an MBA.  I have no idea what Public Admin entails but make sure it's something you can apply broadly if "Plan A" doesn't pan out.

Just my two cents.


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## woodgeek (Oct 5, 2013)

I'm agreeing with Joful too.  Refine your plan and go for it.  The commute you have now is a life destroyer, and your kid is only little once.  Sounds like you will end up three years from now having spend ~1000 fewer hours driving, irreplaceable memories with your child (who will be starting school), a grateful wife, and a masters degree.

I assume you have done the research on job opportunities with the Masters.

The hole in the resume?  You restructured your life so you could get the masters, including a job with more appropriate hours.


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## flyingcow (Oct 5, 2013)

I only read the first few dozen threads. Badfish, you're all set. Go forth an conquer. BTW, UPS is a good solid way to go.



IMO, you've got your mind made up? Do you not?  


Your daughter....these early years are so damn important. In your gut, you know this is right.



5pm to 10 pm? Rock on, easy hours.


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## Ashful (Oct 5, 2013)

Okay, Badfish... I read your posts, but not many of the replies.  Maybe some of this is just repeating what others have said.

I found myself in a situation very similar to yours, excepting that we were still "planning to have kids," rather than already having had them, and I knew that my situation at the time was not where I wanted to be stuck for life.  When the telecom industry tanked in 2001, my wife and I (and thousands of other Lucent/Agere engineers) found ourselves without jobs, and I decided this could never happen to me again.  I started shopping full-time masters programs, and actually found that if I was willing to enroll in a Ph.D. program, I could get a free ride.

Not really wanting to do the full Ph.D. at the time, but not wanting to PAY for school even more... I went for the Ph.D.  Then, three years into the 5-year program, the company funding all of my research pulled the plug, although they did offer me a job... in Boston, where I could continue working on the Ph.D.  Instead, I negotiated to transfer my dissertation credits over to master's thesis credits, and graduated with an MSEE (plus something like 36 extra credits toward a Ph.D. I'll never complete).  I was then faced with the same task that worries you... explaining in job interviews why I hadn't been working the last three years, and even worse... why it took me THREE years to get a master's degree.

I found both items to be a complete non-issue.  In fact, in every case, the interviewers were impressed that I had chosen to go back to school, and with the course- and lab-work I had completed during that time.  Many had either similar stories of their own to tell, or expressed some desire to do the same for themselves.

More importantly, with my education and skill set / job experience, I have almost zero concern about staying employed.  I interviewed with several companies after graduation, and received offers from every one of them.  The company I chose actually had several rounds of layoffs shortly after I was hired, but since I brought something highly valued to the company, others were laid off in my place.  If I do somehow lose my job down the road, I have no concern with finding another, since my area of study is in-demand, and so very few working in my field are schooled in my particular area of expertise.

All that said, it was very hard getting it done, and I imagine your road will be even harder.  I did not have kids at the time, life's biggest factor in stuff like this.  However, I always tell myself I can do ANYTHING, if there's an end in sight.  Two years, three years... seems like a long time, looking forward.  However, look back three years, and it seems like yesterday.  You can do it, if you know it's just a couple years.  Just keep the end in sight, and make sure your work is moving you toward that end... as quickly as possible.  I disagree with the notion of taking a partial load... just get it done.


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## Grisu (Oct 6, 2013)

Hi Badfish,

I also would say that the "hole" in your resume actually will not really be one since you will be getting your degree and be working during that time. However, I see a big problem with your plan: When are you actually going to study? A 2-year old being alone at home with Daddy will not be happy just playing by herself for more than a few minutes. She will want your attention plus that pesky household stuff like preparing lunches, cleaning dishes, doing laundry etc. will rear its head. Have you researched how many hours of course work you will need to complete during the semester? At least double that with time needed for assignments, reading etc. 

I do not worry that you will have a problem with your resume but I fear you completely underestimate how difficult it will be to juggle the demands of a toddler with the workload of a masters degree. Just "squeezing that time in somewhere" does not sound like a workable plan IMHO.


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## woodgeek (Oct 6, 2013)

Of course, like many a mom trying to finish a degree (or just take care of life), you can work out a reciprocal child care arrangement with a friend/neighbor/relative/bear with a similar aged child. Or buy child care for the portion of time required.


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## Retired Guy (Oct 6, 2013)

How is the potential of finding a Public Administration job without relocating?


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## Swedishchef (Oct 6, 2013)

I think part of the answer lies on what type of person are you. Some people have commented that you should just keep your current job, it's a job and there are millions of people who would want it. Others suggest you take the leap of faith/risk. So do you enjoy the simple/stable life you have now or do you have a drive to continue studies and roll the dice for a big payout?

For me, personally, I will NEVER spend  1.5-2.5 hours a day commuting to a job. That is approximately 1/4 of a work day travelling. I have had numerous job opportunities with my current employer but in Montreal. My office would be located in one of the worse places in town (geographically speaking) so a commute would be hell-ish.

You may not be there for the bedtime routine but hell, you'll be with them all day. They won't need to tell you how their day was: you were with them the entire time. That is priceless in my opinion.

PS. What does you spouse suggest?


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## Mrs. Krabappel (Oct 6, 2013)

I say go for it, but I'm salting away at a master's and I often regret it.    It makes life really hard, which is hard on my kid.    In the bigger picture it will be good for my life, but 2.5-3 years is a big chunk of his childhood.  

That being said, I don't have a spouse who can help get household things done or  take a kid out for some fun.


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## Badfish740 (Oct 7, 2013)

Swedishchef said:


> I think part of the answer lies on what type of person are you. Some people have commented that you should just keep your current job, it's a job and there are millions of people who would want it. Others suggest you take the leap of faith/risk. So do you enjoy the simple/stable life you have now or do you have a drive to continue studies and roll the dice for a big payout?



Another small point of clarification.  I think maybe some have gotten the idea that I am a corporate hotshot who is making tons of money and is climbing the ladder to success but doesn't see his family right now looking to transition to a position where I slow down see my family more.  Quite the opposite.  In 2006 when I graduated from college I took a low paying, crazy schedule, high stress job (with a long commute) thinking "this will only be temporary."  Seven years and an economic crisis later, it turned out to not be so temporary. 



Swedishchef said:


> For me, personally, I will NEVER spend  1.5-2.5 hours a day commuting to a job. That is approximately 1/4 of a work day travelling. I have had numerous job opportunities with my current employer but in Montreal. My office would be located in one of the worse places in town (geographically speaking) so a commute would be hell-ish.



I never really thought about it when I typed it, but I'm sure to many in other parts of the country, an hour and 15 minute commute probably does sound quite insane.  However, when you live in NJ (most densely populated state in the union), it's a sad reality.  If you Google mapped my commute right now it would tell you 48 minutes door to door (its only 37 miles), but the 9 million other people trying to get to work in the morning/home at night adds the extra half hour.  Furthermore, if I got out of work at 4:30 or 5:00 everyday (instead of 6:30-7:00) I would be home in plenty of time for bedtime.  Heck I could even split wood during the week!  Throw a work from home day in there once in a while and I'd think I'd died and gone to heaven.  



Swedishchef said:


> PS. What does you spouse suggest?



She's just as unsure as I am.  She doesn't even want to work, but in NJ that doesn't fly.  We couldn't even support ourselves on my sub $45K per year salary let alone us plus our daughter.  Still pondering the opportunities, but I am enjoying the discussion in the meantime.  I am committed to starting a Masters in January (Spring 2014 semester)-it's just a question of how to do it.


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## Ashful (Oct 7, 2013)

Badfish740 said:


> She's just as unsure as I am.  She doesn't even want to work, but in NJ that doesn't fly.  We couldn't even support ourselves on my sub $45K per year salary let alone us plus our daughter.  Still pondering the opportunities, but I am enjoying the discussion in the meantime.  I am committed to starting a Masters in January (Spring 2014 semester)-it's just a question of how to do it.


Glad someone asked the spouse question, I did not think to do it.  I've had a few invites to go back to school and finish what I started, but my wife is the one saying, "don't even think about it."  I'm okay with that.

You know that $45k in NJ just isn't going to cut it, long term.  You live in the third highest ranking state by median income, in our entire country.  Put aside your crazy high NJ property taxes, mortgage, vehicles, food... now you have the expense of college for your kids to consider!  I didn't see if you posted the age of your kids, but I'm sure you already understand compounding.

If you survive it (all up to you, and how tough or stubborn you are), you will not regret it.  Just plan your sleep and home repair projects around holidays... it's what I did for three years.  As long as you keep focused on that distant light at the end of the tunnel, you'll get thru it fine.  Just be damn sure that the career / education you are pursuing is worth it.  I see far too many people who are so highly educated in nothing useful.  Some careers just don't pay for higher education.


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## jharkin (Oct 7, 2013)

You are not alone Badfish.  It could be worse, my wife used to make 70 something as a hospital nurse and around here we couldn't keep the lights on even at that pay (and we have no debt other than house/student). Right now she is a SAHM but even if she went back to work full time we would still need my job to make ends meet so I dont have a lot of flexibility to take a leap like you are considering. So  I say if you are ready - go for it!

I see those same statistics that say the Average American commute is 20 minutes and I scratch my head.  My drive is only half yours - 18 miles - and can be anywhere from 35 minutes at 6:15 am to well over an hour if I cant get out early and have to do it at 5pm.  I bet Boston is like your area - us young professionals all have to head west out of town to find a town cheap enough to live in, then head back east into town where all the tech companies are inside the 128 (I-95) loop road.

I am lucky that my company has generous vacation (at my tenure 30 days plus holidays) and is very tolerant of telecommuting and flex hours and I take advantage of that a lot to increase the time I can spend with my (almost) 3 year old twins. I put up with a lot of non-ideal things career wise right now for that flexibility. Its priceless.


----------



## Badfish740 (Oct 7, 2013)

jharkin said:


> You are not alone Badfish.  It could be worse, my wife used to make 70 something as a hospital nurse and around here we couldn't keep the lights on even at that pay (and we have no debt other than house/student). Right now she is a SAHM but even if she went back to work full time we would still need my job to make ends meet so I dont have a lot of flexibility to take a leap like you are considering. So  I say if you are ready - go for it!
> 
> I see those same statistics that say the Average American commute is 20 minutes and I scratch my head.  My drive is only half yours - 18 miles - and can be anywhere from 35 minutes at 6:15 am to well over an hour if I cant get out early and have to do it at 5pm.  I bet Boston is like your area - us young professionals all have to head west out of town to find a town cheap enough to live in, then head back east into town where all the tech companies are inside the 128 (I-95) loop road.



It's very similar here.  Basically in NJ the cities have "ring suburbs" where a home like ours (2 bed/1 bath 1960s era ranch) can easily run into the $300K range with a $5K per year property tax bill.  Nice towns, if you can afford them, but we can't.  We moved out beyond those for that specific reason, but I pay the price in commuting.  



jharkin said:


> I am lucky that my company has generous vacation (at my tenure 30 days plus holidays) and is very tolerant of telecommuting and flex hours and I take advantage of that a lot to increase the time I can spend with my (almost) 3 year old twins. I put up with a lot of non-ideal things career wise right now for that flexibility. Its priceless.



Flex hours are another thing I look for in a potential job.  We are early risers-if I could start at 7:00 and leave at 3:00 I'd do it in a heartbeat.  I do want to make sure that I'm not coming off as whiny though-I don't think that I should be "entitled" to any of these things at my current job, I just want a crack at a different job that offers them.


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## Ashful (Oct 7, 2013)

BTW... you might want to wear a different hat to your job interview.


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## Swedishchef (Oct 7, 2013)

I don't think you are whining whatsoever. You are simply stating facts.

As for the commute: it is all what you are used to and what you are ready to accept. My home province takes 4 hours to get from tip to tip. I certainly won't spend 1.5 hours in a car to get to work one way 

Move to Canada   Lots of firewood waiting to be cut, very small population (finally busted the 35 million mark for the first time) for the size country we have and we even have good hockey teams! haha.


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## Highbeam (Oct 7, 2013)

Joful said:


> BTW... you might want to wear a different hat to your job interview.
> 
> View attachment 113850


 
Good idea.

To add to Joful's experience and recommendation the most important thing that I took about his story is that he has a valuable degree/specialty. MSEE which I expect means a masters in electrical engineering. If you traded your bachelors in history for a bachelors in EE then we wouldn't be having this conversation as you would have plenty of opportunity. Joful's success depended on that chosen field of study. There are plenty of phd graduates out there unemployed or making 45k a year because they chose an easier field of study.

So I hope that you are certain of the employment opportunities (aka reward) for giving up a sure thing at your current job.


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## mass_burner (Oct 7, 2013)

$5K per year property tax bill

that would be a $1200 cut for me. But its for the schools, 65% of town budget is for schools.


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## Badfish740 (Oct 7, 2013)

Highbeam said:


> To add to Joful's experience and recommendation the most important thing that I took about his story is that he has a valuable degree/specialty. MSEE which I expect means a masters in electrical engineering. If you traded your bachelors in history for a bachelors in EE then we wouldn't be having this conversation as you would have plenty of opportunity. Joful's success depended on that chosen field of study. There are plenty of phd graduates out there unemployed or making 45k a year because they chose an easier field of study.



That's a whole other discussion entirely.  I mean, I could have skipped a four degree entirely, gone to trade school for plumbing/HVAC/electrical and gotten an Associates in either Business or Construction Management and seven years out I'd probably have my own mechanical contracting business by now.  But I didn't.  When I was in high school History was the one subject that interested me besides shop class (I wanted to be a welder or a machinist).  My two blue collar parents were dead set on me going to college (I was the first one in my family to go) because they thought it was a ticket to a better life than they had.  They didn't know anything about college except that it would probably mean that I'd have a job that didn't depend on the weather, punching a clock, or whether or not my back was going to give out on any given day.  Looking back I would have done things differently.



Highbeam said:


> So I hope that you are certain of the employment opportunities (aka reward) for giving up a sure thing at your current job.



Well as I said before-when I look around I see lots of people with History, Poli-Sci, and Communications undergraduate degrees holding the kinds of positions I would like to be in.  The difference between them and me is that they tend to have either MPP (Masters in Public Policy), MPA (Masters in Public Affairs/Administration) on top of those undergraduate degrees.  I've been on at least two interviews where I was eventually turned down.  When the position was eventually filled, I either heard through a connection with the job or stalked Linkedin and found that the person who landed it had an MPA.  That said, my original question was "how do I get my degree" not "what degree do I get?"


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## Swedishchef (Oct 7, 2013)

Highbeam said:


> Good idea.
> 
> To add to Joful's experience and recommendation the most important thing that I took about his story is that he has a valuable degree/specialty. MSEE which I expect means a masters in electrical engineering. If you traded your bachelors in history for a bachelors in EE then we wouldn't be having this conversation as you would have plenty of opportunity. Joful's success depended on that chosen field of study. There are plenty of phd graduates out there unemployed or making 45k a year because they chose an *easier field of study*.
> 
> So I hope that you are certain of the employment opportunities (aka reward) for giving up a sure thing at your current job.


 I know lots of engineers who aren't making more than 45K a year. When you join a firm with 200 employees, it takes time to climb to a higher pay scale.

The easier field of study is different from one person to the next. I have an honors degree in Chemistry (with some quantum theory) and a double minor in physics/computer science. To me it was easy. However, I can't write an essay in english literature of take a philosophy class without wanting to gouge my eyes out. I find those classes very very hard. My mind is a scientific one, not artistic.


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## jharkin (Oct 7, 2013)

Swedishchef said:


> I know lots of engineers who aren't making more than 45K a year. When you join a firm with 200 employees, it takes time to climb to a higher pay scale.




Location plays a large part in that.  Around here, 45k was a starting salary in my field (Mechanical engineering) _15 years ago_, with EEs and CEs making more.   Today starting salaries are closer to 60, and probably 70-80+ for Masters and more for Doctorates. Its not unheard of for folks with an advanced degree or just a lot of years on the job to break into the 6 figures while still completely technical (i.e. not in management track).


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## Ashful (Oct 7, 2013)

Swedishchef said:


> I know lots of engineers who aren't making more than 45K a year.





jharkin said:


> Location plays a large part in that.  Around here, 45k was a starting salary in my field (Mechanical engineering) _15 years ago_, with EEs and CEs making more.


Aside from Badfish's OP, entirely, but EE salaries are generally near the top of engineering disciplines.  I don't know the actual published numbers, but based on the group of friends I knew, starting salaries from my school were $65'ish for BSEE, $85 - $95 MSEE, and $105+ Ph.D.EE.

Highbeam's point is a good one, though, and it seems Badfish has already thought this thru.









*Job Type
Salary Range
Median Salary*
Executive Director of a non-profit
$34,000 - $66,500
$60,000
Human Resources Director
$79,525 - $97,750
$88,000
Management Analyst
$43,750 - $56,163
$51,000
Policy Analyst
$35,000 - $53,844
$45,000
Consultant, Business
$57,500 - $74,500
$60,000
Program Administrator in an non-profit
$40,000 - $55,000
$40,000
Director of Program Management, Human Services
$55,000 - $70,000
$60,000
Purchasing Manager
$48,750 - $56,250
$52,500
Entry-Level Federal Position (Grade 11)
$46,189 - $60,049
$53,000
Mid-Career Federal Position (Grade 13)
$65,832 - $85,578
$75,000
Source: US Office of Personal Management and Pay Scale

While it's no guarantee of a higher salary, the range does become much more skewed in your favor with the MPA.


----------



## Badfish740 (Oct 7, 2013)

As another aside I just want to say that it's a testament to Craig, all of the mods, and all of the posters in this thread (and in general) that these kinds of things can be discussed here.  I've seen threads similar to this one turn judgmental and nasty/political in hot second elsewhere.


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## Swedishchef (Oct 7, 2013)

jharkin said:


> Location plays a large part in that.  Around here, 45k was a starting salary in my field (Mechanical engineering) _15 years ago_, with EEs and CEs making more.   Today starting salaries are closer to 60, and probably 70-80+ for Masters and more for Doctorates. Its not unheard of for folks with an advanced degree or just a lot of years on the job to break into the 6 figures while still completely technical (i.e. not in management track).


I was mistaken. A starting salary for ME around here is about $60K. I was thinking of when my buddy was doing his P Eng with a firm. Ooops, my bad!!

Funny thing is that the job I have not doesn't require more than a HS diploma and after 3 years your base salary is $82K. Hence why lots of friends (including my 3 friends who studied ME) do the same as me.

I say GO FOR IT.You seem to already know you're gonna do it..

This thread is making me want to go back to school. That won't happen anytime soon: my wife currently stays at home and I am the sole income winner. :|


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## Ashful (Oct 7, 2013)

Badfish740 said:


> As another aside I just want to say that it's a testament to Craig, all of the mods, and all of the posters in this thread (and in general) that these kinds of things can be discussed here.  I've seen threads similar to this one turn judgmental and nasty/political in hot second elsewhere.


hey... we gotta talk about something other than woodstoves, once in a while.


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## Swedishchef (Oct 7, 2013)

Exactly We could even talk about my wife who just backed into a hand railing at the post office and scratched alongside our car (actually, let's not talk about it. Keep the OP thread going.).


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## flyingcow (Oct 7, 2013)

Badfish740 said:


> As another aside I just want to say that it's a testament to Craig, all of the mods, and all of the posters in this thread (and in general) that these kinds of things can be discussed here.  I've seen threads similar to this one turn judgmental and nasty/political in hot second elsewhere.




I don't want craigs head to get too swelled up, but it is a very well run board. Also, one of the best group of participants for a BB. These type of discussions are interesting to me, mainly the different view points and experiences.

I think I live a very sheltered/isolated life. Most of the time I'm happy with that. But when you need to run to a mall or box store, it's just an hour away--if you drive 80mph. It has helped now they got the interstate speed limit at 75mph now. A lot of people up here commute an hour and fifteen to work, which will get them about 80/85  miles from here.


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## Swedishchef (Oct 7, 2013)

I am 250 miles from a box store


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## festerw (Oct 7, 2013)

Swedishchef said:


> Exactly We could even talk about my wife who just backed into a hand railing at the post office and scratched alongside our car (actually, let's not talk about it. Keep the OP thread going.).




Must be going around, a couple weeks ago my wife backed her Grand Cherokee into the  fender of my Wrangler


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## flyingcow (Oct 7, 2013)

Swedishchef said:


> I am 250 miles from a box store



How about "point and click" shopping?


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## jharkin (Oct 7, 2013)

I can walk to the local hardware store,no need to drive to the box


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## Swedishchef (Oct 7, 2013)

Don't wanna jack the thread but....I am in a town of 7500 people and it's the largest town for 250 miles. God bless internet shopping and free shipping. And GOd Bless me getting a transfer next year!!

Now go get that Masters


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## woodgeek (Oct 7, 2013)

Swedishchef said:


> Exactly We could even talk about my wife who just backed into a hand railing at the post office and scratched alongside our car (actually, let's not talk about it. Keep the OP thread going.).



My wife wanted to avoid driving over the newspaper in our driveway, and ended up with a deep 6' long scratch the length of our car from the metal mailbox.

The newspaper is fine.


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## woodgeek (Oct 7, 2013)

Joful said:


> Aside from Badfish's OP, entirely, but EE salaries are generally near the top of engineering disciplines.  I don't know the actual published numbers, but based on the group of friends I knew, starting salaries from my school were $65'ish for BSEE, $85 - $95 MSEE, and $105+ Ph.D.EE.
> 
> Highbeam's point is a good one, though, and it seems Badfish has already thought this thru.
> 
> ...



The local ChemE's are getting 80-90k jobs out of their bachelors.


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## Elle (Oct 7, 2013)

I just finished a masters and I am " a little" older than you lol.  A masters is an expensive degree! The reason I decided to go for a masters was to be able to be self employed. I can become a licensed counselor and have a private practice. That is my ultimate goal and the only reason I would get a masters later in life- to work for myself not for someone else. 

Is there a reason you can't do what you want to with you current degree?


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## Elle (Oct 7, 2013)

I don't know how to edit from the app so another post. 

I did not get one question about any gap in work while on school. Anyone who has gone thru a graduate program knows it is a lot of work and it is hard to so both a full time job and school. I would not let that deter me. You can always learn something you can apply in your field from any job- even packing for UPS.  It gives you more perspective than someone who has never had that job. 

If you can afford it. Go for it. Those letters after the name are nice. I'm letting someone else pay for the PhD tho lol


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## Hearth Mistress (Oct 7, 2013)

Ok, well I feel the need to chime in, I read a lot of the posts and skimmed the rest.  As an mid level executive at a fortune 500 company managing over 100 people all over the US, I never finished college but don't regret it either, any more anyway.

I was fortunate to have a one on one meeting with the former CEO of my company as part of a "early in career" leadership program a few years back.  I had only been in my role about a year and was scared to death going into the meeting. When we got to the questions about my education, I squirmed and explained I never finished college but started listing all of my other accomplishments.  He interrupted me to let me know he never finished either, dropped out his sophomore year,  never went back, no regrets.  He values "real life" experience over college any day.  I then realized that even my peers, that had their BAs and Masters were not working in their field anyway. Changed the way I looked at it from that day on.  I hire people based on their overall abilities, skill sets and experience.  I don't worry about gaps either, they usually can explain them. As someone else posted, it is way more of an issue to me if they have job after job every few years. Not saying that's the way it should be but that's the way it is for me. 

So, only you can make the decision, however, I'm not buying the job market is flat.  I get at least 3 job posting a day from ladders.com, people are hiring but you need to market yourself and your skills.  My background is in printing, not mail and mailroom operations but my multi unit management skills can be applied in any industry, just had to look outside the box.

Yes, UPS is a decent job but be prepared to bust your butt. There is a UPS depot near one of my main sites and we get a lot folks from there. It will fill the gap but before you do that, take some time to list our your abilities and brainstorm how those skills can transfer into a totally different industry. You may be surprised just how qualified you are for other positions with growth potential without going back to school just yet.

If I had to do this all over again, I'd get into healthcare services. Not sure exactly where or how but know people are always sick, regardless of the economy and there are plenty of administrators, managers, communication specialist and other   "non-medical" positions that support hospitals. With the boomers getting older (no offense to anyone) not only are they reaching retirement but eventually will be needing more and more healthcare resources.

I'd be glad to help you re-invent your career if you want to PM me. There is a lot to say about work/life balance and right now, it doesn't appear you have that...making matters worse


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## Highbeam (Oct 8, 2013)

Good post HM.

You've got to be able to do something more contructive with your interim job than pack boxes.Use this opportunity to take a step towards your goal, not as a place to wait.

My mother is a top advisor at a university offering masters degrees. She has told me to not waste my time with advanced schooling but that is because my bachelors was in a good field. Should have been a chemE.


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## Ashful (Oct 8, 2013)

Highbeam said:


> Should have been a chemE.


Not sure which direction you went Highbeam, but chem-E definitely pays well, if you can tolerate the work.  I dislike chemistry too much!

I did actually go and pull the published numbers from my school, and the numbers I published from memory above were pretty much dead-on for EE, and show that the EE median starting salary is actually a good $12k (17%) over Chem-E for this school, although that might be due to different ratios of BS vs. MS or Ph.D. students graduating from each program.






I think Hearth Mistress will agree that it takes two things, above all else, to successfully end up where she has:

1.  Ability to demonstrate your smarts and/or skills.  This goes beyond just having the smarts/skills, as too many smart folks are socially inept.
2.  Luck, to have the opportunity to demonstrate said smarts/skills to the right person, at the right time.  Many very qualified people just never have the opportunity to do so, if for no other reason than bad timing within their organization.

The fact is, you can do very well without any degree.  The issue I see is that you are presented with more opportunities / luck if you have the papers to get you in front of the right person, in the first place.

This is all interesting discussion, but I suspect all irrelevant to Badfish.  He seems to be telling us he has no interest in climbing the management ladder.


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## Highbeam (Oct 8, 2013)

Joful said:


> Not sure which direction you went Highbeam, but chem-E definitely pays well, if you can tolerate the work.  I dislike chemistry too much!
> .


 
I did civil and environmental. Entering my junior year of college I was accepted into and had to choose between civil, mechanical, and forest engineering at both UW and WSU. I'm happy with my choice, it's been a good move. Chemistry never appealed to me either, physics was my favorite.


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## Swedishchef (Oct 8, 2013)

Where are my fellow Homie Chemists?!?!


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## Ashful (Oct 8, 2013)

I think Adios Pantalones is a chemist or Chem-E.


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## jharkin (Oct 8, 2013)

Swedishchef said:


> Where are my fellow Homie Chemists?!?!



Your a chem-e?  For some reason I thought once you said you where RCMP...  my memory must be failing or that was somebody else...




Joful said:


> 2. Luck, to have the opportunity to demonstrate said smarts/skills to the right person, at the right time. Many very qualified people just never have the opportunity to do so, if for no other reason than bad timing within their organization.



There is a lot to be said for luck.  I started as an Aero, switched to mechanical when the job outlook didnt look good, and ended up working in software of all things.  Got lucky more than once along the way - when everyone was jumping ship to start ups during the dot-com boom I was hesitant and later it turned out to be a smart move when many of them got laid off in the crash and some even came back to my company.  Having stuck it out through the rough times put me in a good position for management track opportunities when they opened up later and many others had left.

(Also realizing that I'm way out of date re: going salary's!  I need to ask for a raise  )


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## Ashful (Oct 8, 2013)

jharkin said:


> (Also realizing that I'm way out of date re: going salary's!  I need to ask for a raise  )


Those numbers I published are from one of the top 20 schools in the country, based on mid-career salary, so I wouldn't call them typical.  Then again, living in a part of the country with very high cost of living, as you do...

http://www.payscale.com/college-salary-report-2014/full-list-of-schools


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## Swedishchef (Oct 8, 2013)

jharkin said:


> Your a chem-e?  For some reason I thought once you said you where RCMP...  my memory must be failing or that was somebody else...


 I am in the RCMP. But I still have my chemistry degree   I should have gone Chem-E.  I appreciate/enjoy applied sciences much more than natural science. But when you're 17 you go to University, you have NO clue what is out there.


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## begreen (Oct 8, 2013)

I am the last one to be giving job advice because I am a (calculated) risk taker. I also know that I need a job with variety or I get bored. In 50 yrs of employment I have had at least 5 major and somewhat unrelated careers. Would I do it again? Yup. I trust in my abilities and curiosity. Here is my pov, but take this with a grain of salt. We each have our own path. The real trick is getting someone that is hiring you to do the same. Follow your passions and develop them. If you are good you will be hired. Any person interviewing you that doesn't appreciate the effort, expense and discipline you take at retraining probably isn't someone you'd want to work for anyway.


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## Ashful (Oct 8, 2013)

Swedishchef said:


> Any person interviewing you that doesn't appreciate the effort, expense and discipline you take at retraining probably isn't someone you'd want to work for anyway.


Worth repeating.


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## jharkin (Oct 8, 2013)

Joful said:


> Those numbers I published are from one of the top 20 schools in the country, based on mid-career salary, so I wouldn't call them typical.  Then again, living in a part of the country with very high cost of living, as you do...
> 
> http://www.payscale.com/college-salary-report-2014/full-list-of-schools



Jeez tell me about it! 6k property tax on a little 1400sq house on a half acre... I can only dream of the large tracts of land some of our members here enjoy... Someday...


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## Swedishchef (Oct 8, 2013)

jharkin said:


> Jeez tell me about it! 6k property tax on a little 1400sq house on a half acre... I can only dream of the large tracts of land some of our members here enjoy... Someday...


 
Nunavut has a great discount on land packages right now


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## Ashful (Oct 8, 2013)

Swedishchef said:


> Nunavut has a great discount on land packages right now


Yeah...  and for three days in mid-July... you can actually see the "land."


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## homebrewz (Oct 8, 2013)

Speaking of chemistry, MS in environmental geochemistry here. Though, I certainly didn't need it to do the work I'm doing at present. However, it was paid for by a teaching assistantship, so I figured why not. The knowledge and experience gained by doing my own research and defending it, and the professional contacts I made were well worth it. Don't know about a more professional degree, like the MPA, but I think some good connections could be made. Who you know really helps come job hunting time.


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## Swedishchef (Oct 8, 2013)

Joful said:


> Yeah...  and for three days in mid-July... you can actually see the "land."


 
Oh how wrong you are. You can see land for 4-6 months of the year. You just can't get a shovel into it


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## midwestcoast (Oct 9, 2013)

I dunno if Badfish is still reading this but to me, taking into account the commute and having some time for a young kid, the best route would be to find a job in his field with opportunity for advancement where his desire for a Masters would be appreciated and maybe even accomodated somewhat.  There are places that will help with tuition, or let you work from home one day a week to allow you to take night courses or save commute time so you can do correspondence work.
Why not start out looking for a dream position that would give you the flexibility to get the degree and then to USE it to advance?
UPS is not your dream so why start out by compromising so much?
Not saying it's easy or even likely, but worth a shot!


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## Ashful (Oct 9, 2013)

midwestcoast said:


> ...the best route would be to find a job in his field with opportunity for advancement where his desire for a Masters would be appreciated and maybe even accomodated somewhat.  There are places that will help with tuition, or let you work from home one day a week to allow you to take night courses or save commute time so you can do correspondence work.


I got a portion of my BSEE paid for in this way... started working in a low-level engineering role, while they payed for me to take courses at night.  It can be done, in theory... but takes damn near forever, while taking up your only time away from work, and leaving zero time for family.  Maybe some companies offer a better deal, or time off to do homework, but none I've ever found.  I eventually found I had to stop working and go back to school full-time, if I wanted to finish my degree in any reasonable amount of time.

I suspect statistics support what I found, but I've never looked into it.  I can say I've known dozens of people who have tried to do the part time / evening school thing, while working full time.  Most give up after after several years, with very little accomplished.  In fact, in my memory, I cannot recall a single one who completed their degree, without biting the bullet and going back full-time at some point.


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## Badfish740 (Oct 9, 2013)

Joful said:


> I got a portion of my BSEE paid for in this way... started working in a low-level engineering role, while they payed for me to take courses at night.  It can be done, in theory... but takes damn near forever, while taking up your only time away from work, and leaving zero time for family.  Maybe some companies offer a better deal, or time off to do homework, but none I've ever found.  I eventually found I had to stop working and go back to school full-time, if I wanted to finish my degree in any reasonable amount of time.
> 
> I suspect statistics support what I found, but I've never looked into it.  I can say I've known dozens of people who have tried to do the part time / evening school thing, while working full time.  Most give up after after several years, with very little accomplished.  In fact, in my memory, I cannot recall a single one who completed their degree, without biting the bullet and going back full-time at some point.



This was a major reason for me considering the part time job-I've personally seen two coworkers at my current job who attempted a Masters while working here full time and didn't finish.  One finally left in order to finish (she was single and pretty unattached so it was an easy choice) and one is still here in the same boat as me.


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## Hearth Mistress (Oct 9, 2013)

I wouldn't say it's been luck, I'm far from a "lucky" person.  I've put up with my fair share, and then some of BS. Worked in retail for a long time, 50-60 hrs a week, 6 days a week, never enjoyed a holiday for years.  Worked for pigs of humans (both men and women) but never once compromised my integrity or morals, ever.  If you haven't figure it out yet, I'm not a "yes sir" type of person, I will challenge people and their "directions" if warranted, respectfully, at the right time.  None of that is "luck" it is ability to seize an opportunity and put yourself in front of the right people. That's not something someone can teach you, that's experience and intuition. 

My boss hired me because he surrounds himself with people who are head strong, he lets us do our own thing, with success or failure, his support never waivers.  Granted, it took me 20+ years and a bunch of crappy jobs before this one to finally find a company where I fit in, not the "lone nut" 

My advice to anyone in what they feel is a dead end job, you have skills, you have a lot to offer and if you are not in a nurturing environment, keep looking.  If you think there is opportunity, put yourself in front of the people that make decisions. The ONLY person that cares about your development plan and career goals is you.  

You can say I "lucked out" but if it wasn't for me having the courage and self confidence to reach out to my bosses boss's admin to get a meeting with her, the VP of my division, knowing she was coming to town, I'd never have the opportunities I've been blessed with these past few years. In her 15+ years, no one ever was so forward. Not only did she accept my meeting, she brought along her boss, the president of my division too.  THAT was the start of my success, nothing to do with luck...just bravery


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## BrotherBart (Oct 9, 2013)

Like Hearth Mistress says, ya have to kiss a lot of frogs. I actually never told any prospective employer about my MBA or the year of law school.  

Of course I didn't have kids so I could launch off of a few cliffs hoping to catch some wind under my wings. Fortunately I did. And was doing it in the seventies and eighties. Doing it today I would probably end up living in a refrigerator box somewhere.


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## Ashful (Oct 10, 2013)

Hearth Mistress, don't misinterpret what I say.  You obviously have the chops to be where you are.  But thinking back to your original story, you were lucky that your former CEO had chose to have that "early in career" leadership program, and take the time to meet with you.  Without that sole meeting, you may have still done well (finding other opportunities), but might not be exactly where you are today.

I've done very well for myself.  A lot of it was dumb luck.  Some of it was making choices that put me in the right place at the right time.


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## jharkin (Oct 10, 2013)

Joful said:


> I suspect statistics support what I found, but I've never looked into it. I can say I've known dozens of people who have tried to do the part time / evening school thing, while working full time. Most give up after after several years, with very little accomplished. In fact, in my memory, I cannot recall a single one who completed their degree, without biting the bullet and going back full-time at some point.



I believe it.  My company ran a program for a while in partnership with a local business school (Babson college) where we could get a Management certificate - basically 1/3 of an MBA with an emphasis on the tech related courses.  This was for engineering managers. It was copletely paid for and the Babson professors even came to our office campus to teach on site. It took a bit over two years at one course per semester and summer.

I did the entire course, and at the end you had the option to enroll at Babson and finish the MBA.  Just happened to be when the kids arrived and my wife left work and it just hasn't worked out financially or time wise for me to finish. I find that the courses I took plus my engineering degree and on job experience are more than enough to be an effective engineering manager.  Maybe if I wanted to start my own company or go interview for an executive role I'll regret not finishing, but for now....


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