# Low Temp heat emitters source



## peakbagger (Jan 19, 2016)

After taking a hydronics course, its obvious that I need to yank my baseboard and go with low temp emitters as I should be able to increase my effective storage capacity by running the emitters at a far lower temp then my Slant Fin baseboard. Sure the baseboard puts out heat at low temps but at some point the installed footage means that the system cant keep the rooms warm. The old Pex Supply (Supply House now) has some lines of emitters but I am curious if anyone has found any other good sources that direct sell to the public?  Houseneeds in VT lists some lines but its all special order and traditionally their pricing isn't great on special orders. Much of the equipment I run into is only sold through distributors and the markup makes it pretty pricey (in general it looks like its about 5 to 10 times more expensive than baseboard). Give the level of talent in northern NH for heating systems, I expect 90% of the installers really have no use for low temp emitters as they mostly do baseboard with a couple of zones on a standard oil boiler so buying local is not an option.


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## TCaldwell (Jan 19, 2016)

Last weekend I removed the 31 ft of slant fin, piped series that was struggling with supply water under 140 deg. This is a living room, 16ft cathedral ceiling and lots of glass on the south facing wall, adjoining kitchen with 8ft ceiling, totals out to 800sqft. The room configuration, wall spaces, window heights didn't configure well to cast iron rads or panel rads, I didn't want to spend the money for cast iron baseboards, I went with the smith's environmental double element baseboard, 40ft total and piped it supply on top and reverse return on the bottom. Possibly at 120 deg the slant fin was producing 300btu/ft, I believe the smiths is double that. Last night was cold, single digits and windy, typically to compensate for this room in weather like this I'd fire at 150deg to try to hold 73 deg, the smiths held the room at 73, and was still holding at when I fired at 130deg this morning. Overall so far I'm impressed, I ordered last wed, Thursday they were at my doorstep, Sunday they were running. I thought the cost was reasonable, 28$/ft.


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## velvetfoot (Jan 19, 2016)

I can't really help you, but I looked into low temperature baseboard a couple years ago.  At that time Heating Edge was best, http://www.wardheating.com/pages/hydronics/-new--low-temperature-perimeter-heating .  There might be others selling similar products now, including Slant Fin, since it helps the mod-con boilers work to max efficiency.  Are you sticking with baseboard?

Wow:  As I was typing...


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## velvetfoot (Jan 19, 2016)

Here is a chart I made.  It's a couple years old and outdated I'm sure.


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## velvetfoot (Jan 19, 2016)

TCaldwell said:


> and piped it supply on top and reverse return on the bottom.


So, was that the way the stuff you took was piped, or did you change things?


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## maple1 (Jan 19, 2016)

Question: are there some low temp emitters, that have a max supply temp spec?

Low temp emitters are great for getting heat out of cool water - but if they are limited in how hot the water can be that's going into them, you might come up short on the recovery aspect. If recovery is a particular concern.

I would like more low temp emitters in my system, but at least my oversized Slant-Fin does have some recovery horsepower to it if I want to send hot water to them. I don't think it would matter to most types but not sure - and that is one of the drawbacks to low temp radiant in-floor, it only likes water of a certain hotness so recovery is slow.


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## peakbagger (Jan 19, 2016)

I would like to go radiant wall mount emitters. My floors are not well set up for conversion to tubing and based on the course I took, tubing has its limitations unless the house was designed for it, plus I do a lot of setback in the house zones so I want reasonable response.  I have a couple of spots where putting tubing in walls would be great but not in the mood to drywall, although my bathroom may get it at some point.


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## JohnDolz (Jan 19, 2016)

peakbagger said:


> I would like to go radiant wall mount emitters. My floors are not well set up for conversion to tubing and based on the course I took, tubing has its limitations unless the house was designed for it, plus I do a lot of setback in the house zones so I want reasonable response.  I have a couple of spots where putting tubing in walls would be great but not in the mood to drywall, although my bathroom may get it at some point.


I probably should remain silent as most of you have been on the other thread but while I agree with the value of low temp emitters I believe the better place to start is with the mixing valve which allows you to maximize the potential of your current emitters with low temp water. I spoke with Tom and understand he had a problem spot in the house that he was addressing so that makes sense. To me, if you were going to do 1 or the other (understanding that both is best) I would suggest mixing valve 1st. I replaced my baseboard radiator covers about 5 years ago with something more decorative - I can assure you that if you are doing your whole house $28/ft will add up quickly.


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## TCaldwell (Jan 19, 2016)

Velvet, look on smiths he2, it has 2 elements and can be piped many ways


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## velvetfoot (Jan 19, 2016)

TCaldwell said:


> Velvet, look on smiths he2, it has 2 elements and can be piped many ways


I realize, but I just was wondering what you did.  My house is probably series on each of two floors. All the piping is under the floor in my setup, and I assumed so was yours.  I was wondering if you used the return pipe in some innovative manner instead of just replacing the baseboard.


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## velvetfoot (Jan 19, 2016)

TCaldwell said:


> Velvet, look on smiths he2, it has 2 elements and can be piped many ways


I realize, but I just was wondering what you did.  My house is probably series on each of two floors. All the piping is under the floor in my setup, and I assumed so was yours.  I was wondering if you used the return pipe in some innovative manner instead of just replacing the baseboard.


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## tom in maine (Jan 19, 2016)

Baseboards are convection devices. As such, the taller the housing it, the greater the convection and the higher the heat output.
If you can tolerate a taller housing, you can bump up the output.
Dick Hill and I tested and did this and it works well. Dick had students make stupidly tall housings and the output continued to increase.
The chimney effect is what makes many of the low temp emitters work well.
You could try it somewhere if convenient.
In my own heating system, I am pumping unpressurized tank water with a bronze pump into various radiant walls and floors.
I wanted a bit more output on the first floor of the house and installed a steel radiant panel in the original closed loop system I had.
When I converted to open loop, that panel had to go. I got some fin tube and made a panel with some v match pine as a housing.
It should have a grill on top, but that is still waiting to happen.
It is only 3-4' long but throws out a fair bit of heat.


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## velvetfoot (Jan 19, 2016)

I recall in my last look at this, that there is some commercial fin tube baseboard in tall convectors.  I recall they were very expensive and the electric outlets interfered, again, as I recall.


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## maple1 (Jan 19, 2016)

tom in maine said:


> Baseboards are convection devices. As such, the taller the housing it, the greater the convection and the higher the heat output.
> If you can tolerate a taller housing, you can bump up the output.
> Dick Hill and I tested and did this and it works well. Dick had students make stupidly tall housings and the output continued to increase.
> The chimney effect is what makes many of the low temp emitters work well.
> ...


 
How high is your v match housing?


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## TCaldwell (Jan 19, 2016)

Velvet, my piping is exposed in the basement


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## velvetfoot (Jan 19, 2016)

Tom,  then why did you have to use the return tube inside the convector.


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## tom in maine (Jan 19, 2016)

It's not too tall, only about 8", but that is a bit taller than the housing that is usually used.
I believe you would only count the front panel as the actual convector height. And the top and damper do tend to 
cut down the convection on regular baseboards. 
If you look around at commercial convectors, they tend to be rather tall. And double radiant panels are really radiators and convectors.
If you can situate them, they do a good job.


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## Bob Rohr (Jan 19, 2016)

It all about the surface area when moving heat.  I suppose it depends on what type of look you are after.  Panel rads work at low temperature but the required square footage goes up quickly, and the cost

Jaga has some low temperature emitters with small "muffin" fans to force convection.  Forcing the air flow really improves output, think of those suspended hydronic heaters seen in shops.  The fans have a built in reset control to ramp speeds on the Jaga system.

I've been hunting down unique old cast iron radiators for my shop and office.  Running about 125F supply they recover quite nicely and provide radiant and some convection.   Here is a corner rad I found up in Omaha I tested, stripped, painted and installed it.

Old cast radiators are available for scrap prices, sometimes free for the hauling.

The infrared is about a 45 minute run from 65 to 125F


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## cpeltier (Jan 19, 2016)

Bob Rohr said:


> It all about the surface area when moving heat.  I suppose it depends on what type of look you are after.
> 
> I've been hunting down unique old cast iron radiators for my shop and office.  Running about 125F supply they recover quite nicely and provide radiant and some convection.   Here is a corner rad I found up in Omaha I tested, stripped, painted and installed it.
> 
> ...



I've used Governale cast iron baseboard to heat some cold bedrooms using a low temp supply setup for radiant. The water source tops out at 120F and it has worked well.


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## maple1 (Jan 19, 2016)

Bob Rohr said:


> It all about the surface area when moving heat.  I suppose it depends on what type of look you are after.  Panel rads work at low temperature but the required square footage goes up quickly, and the cost
> 
> Jaga has some low temperature emitters with small "muffin" fans to force convection.  Forcing the air flow really improves output, think of those suspended hydronic heaters seen in shops.  The fans have a built in reset control to ramp speeds on the Jaga system.
> 
> ...




How did you strip it?


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## TCaldwell (Jan 19, 2016)

Velvet, probably best if you google he2 baseboards, it shows 4 different piping options, reverse return, s output was high, along with the benefit of even heat for that length of run


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## velvetfoot (Jan 19, 2016)

Will do.  I've done a lot of insulating along the rim joists, where the distribution pipes are, plus there's the second floor, so I'm not sure this elective surgery is in the near future


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## Bob Rohr (Jan 19, 2016)

maple1 said:


> How did you strip it?


 Started with paint stripper, pressure washer, then an assortment of hand and powered wire brushes.  It it wasn't so big, heavy, and awkward it would have gone to a sandblaster.


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## Karl_northwind (Jan 20, 2016)

Bob Rohr said:


> It all about the surface area when moving heat.  I suppose it depends on what type of look you are after.  Panel rads work at low temperature but the required square footage goes up quickly, and the cost
> 
> Jaga has some low temperature emitters with small "muffin" fans to force convection.  Forcing the air flow really improves output, think of those suspended hydronic heaters seen in shops.  The fans have a built in reset control to ramp speeds on the Jaga system.
> 
> ...


that's a gorgeous goofy radiator.  
I'm trying to convince the wife that we can install some old cast iron radiators horizontally as benches in a house we're renovating.  she wants to do euro-panel rads, and as I can get them super cheap, that may win out.  

my vote for your project Peakbagger, are pensotti panel radiators.  I'm going next week to swap out some baseboards for some 12x72" panel radiators.  clean, better micro zoning, and a lot more heat per linear foot.


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## Boardroom (Jan 20, 2016)

My house was not conducive to running radiant floor piping so I also fitted my house with old CI rads. I found most of them on classifieds. I think the most I paid for one rad was $100. I got one big one for free just for picking it up.  I had a guy with a mobile wet blaster come out to the house and he stripped them all in a day. I just bought spray paint from home depot to paint them. I think in total I bought 13 rads and two leaked when I tested them so I ended up with 11 good ones.  My average cost all finished for each one was $180. I have been running pretty hot water through them but JohnDolz has convinced me that cool could work. I guess it will all depend on whether I have them sized properly for the rooms they are in. Getting them clean on the inside is the real trick. I wish I had done a better job with mine.
Here are some before and after pics. Sorry I couldn't get them oriented properly.


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## velvetfoot (Jan 21, 2016)

TCaldwell said:


> Velvet, probably best if you google he2 baseboards, it shows 4 different piping options, reverse return, s output was high, along with the benefit of even heat for that length of run


I read the he2 brochure again.  Why did you choose return instead of parallel, since parallel has more output?


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## velvetfoot (Jan 21, 2016)

TCaldwell said:


> Velvet, probably best if you google he2 baseboards, it shows 4 different piping options, reverse return, s output was high, along with the benefit of even heat for that length of run


I read the he2 brochure again.  Why did you choose return instead of parallel, since parallel has more output?


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## TCaldwell (Jan 21, 2016)

The output difference wasn't that much, I the continuity of heat distribution across a 40 ft baseboard run I believe is evened out with reverse return, rather than different temps with parallel from one end to the other


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## velvetfoot (Jan 21, 2016)

I think I get it.  Not home runned  with separate controls, but the temperature is less when it makes the turn, but then loses more heat on its way back.  I never thought of that before.


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## doco2279 (Mar 2, 2016)

Good afternoon everyone.  I've an old farm house and the baseboard in it are horrible.  I'm not sure when they were installed, but they are old and beat up.  I was thinking of replacing them with bigger units.  I'm currently running an outdoor wood/coal boiler and I'm usually running around 150 degree water through the system.  I'd like them to put out more heat.  From what I was reading, I think I infer that if I made my own custom covers and made them taller, I'd increase the chimney effect and hence the heat output.  Is this correct?  Should I still look at also replacing these old units with newer units?

Thanks.


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## JohnDolz (Mar 2, 2016)

doco2279 said:


> Good afternoon everyone.  I've an old farm house and the baseboard in it are horrible.  I'm not sure when they were installed, but they are old and beat up.  I was thinking of replacing them with bigger units.  I'm currently running an outdoor wood/coal boiler and I'm usually running around 150 degree water through the system.  I'd like them to put out more heat.  From what I was reading, I think I infer that if I made my own custom covers and made them taller, I'd increase the chimney effect and hence the heat output.  Is this correct?  Should I still look at also replacing these old units with newer units?
> 
> Thanks.


I can only tell you that I am using standard fin tube baseboard and am heating my house with VERY low temp water (the circulators run pretty much non-stop to achieve this). My house was built in 1987 so we probably have different heat loss issues but I can tell you that the only time I saw 150 degree water (excluding recovery) was when it was -15 outside and even then maybe it wasn't that high. If you just want to dress up the house take a look at the link below. I installed these when I bought my house 5 years ago and love them (they even have a tall version now). Too lazy to dig up my old invoice but for some reason I thought I paid less (thinking I paid $3 - $4k for 95% of the house - don't recall how many lineal feet that was). Not sure what a low temperature emitter costs per foot but there is no install costs with the covers. I did it myself which proves ANYONE can do it. One word of caution, my plumber swears that the covers cause a huge loss of efficiency/ The owner of the company would dispute that and based on my experience I do not see any difference in the rooms with these covers vs. the 1 or 2 rooms that have the traditional covers. The real loss comes from the lack of convection due to water temp being well below 120 most of the time. Regardless my house is 72 degrees. 

www.baseboardheaters.com


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## velvetfoot (Mar 2, 2016)

doco2279 said:


> From what I was reading, I think I infer that if I made my own custom covers and made them taller, I'd increase the chimney effect and hence the heat output. Is this correct?


I believe that's true.

The high output baseboards mentioned above would be a direct replacement and be about the same size.  It'd be great (for me, lol) if you came up with some material cost estimates.

I might look around a little and see if it's possible to buy taller convector add-ons, but I think I did that a few years ago with no luck.  I don't know why you couldn't make your own, if you had the skills.

John:  That link doesn't work for me.


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## doco2279 (Mar 2, 2016)

I found some stuff online about making your own baseboard covers.  It is definitely possible. I was just curious if anyone on here had attempted it.  I might give it a go and let you know material cost if I actually get around to doing it.  On my current baseboards, the little diverter thingy's never stay open, so I know my convection isn't working like it should.  Plus they just look old and worn out. 

http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-make-wooden-baseboard-heater-covers/


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## JohnDolz (Mar 2, 2016)

doco2279 said:


> I found some stuff online about making your own baseboard covers.  It is definitely possible. I was just curious if anyone on here had attempted it.  I might give it a go and let you know material cost if I actually get around to doing it.  On my current baseboards, the little diverter thingy's never stay open, so I know my convection isn't working like it should.  Plus they just look old and worn out.
> 
> http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-make-wooden-baseboard-heater-covers/


Take a look at the link above for some aftermarket covers. They were not cheap but I am extremely happy with how they look. The one caution I remember reading somewhere is to be cautious of what material is used in a cover. You do not want to create an insulating cover over it, you want to transfer heat. Convection is the ideal method but as one starts using low temp water convection is greatly reduced so I take BTU's wherever I can get them.


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## velvetfoot (Mar 2, 2016)

I just read the thread again some.  Tom in Maine made some covers.  
TCaldwell's paid $28/ft for high output baseboard.  For my 103' of baseboard, that would come to $2900.  Could be worse.

That wood cover looked pretty good to me.  I imagine you'd take off the metal covers and left the pipe w/fins. And leave a space at the bottom so the cool floor air can come in.  In my case, the restraining factor for height would be the power outlets, which would still be pretty tall.


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## velvetfoot (Mar 2, 2016)

There are people out there that make these things:




http://www.custommade.com/radiator-cover/by/davidgilbert/


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## JohnDolz (Mar 3, 2016)

velvetfoot said:


> I believe that's true.
> 
> The high output baseboards mentioned above would be a direct replacement and be about the same size.  It'd be great (for me, lol) if you came up with some material cost estimates.
> 
> ...


Sorry about that, try baseboardheatercovers.com


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## JohnDolz (Mar 3, 2016)

velvetfoot said:


> I just read the thread again some.  Tom in Maine made some covers.
> TCaldwell's paid $28/ft for high output baseboard.  For my 103' of baseboard, that would come to $2900.  Could be worse.
> 
> That wood cover looked pretty good to me.  I imagine you'd take off the metal covers and left the pipe w/fins. And leave a space at the bottom so the cool floor air can come in.  In my case, the restraining factor for height would be the power outlets, which would still be pretty tall.


At $28/ft it is almost the same price as just the heater cover I mentioned, of course that assumes one has the ability to install it themselves, I do not. But as I think about it, I am running temps that are mostly 100 - 120 degrees so I can't imagine I could go any lower with water temp. I know TCaldwell was "fixing' 1 room in his house that was forcing him to use higher water temps.


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## Fred61 (Mar 3, 2016)

If you did find a way to increase the height of your housings and it still did not adequately heat the space you would have room to add another fin tube within the additional space. I have 55 feet or so of fin tube advertised on CL for a buck a foot and have had no takers.


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## doco2279 (Mar 3, 2016)

I'm going to be doing some re-modeling this spring and I'm thinking of removing baseboard from the room we are re-modeling and installing some of the Myson t6 radiators.  Have you guys had any experience with these types of radiant panels?


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## Bob Rohr (Mar 3, 2016)

doco2279 said:


> I'm going to be doing some re-modeling this spring and I'm thinking of removing baseboard from the room we are re-modeling and installing some of the Myson t6 radiators.  Have you guys had any experience with these types of radiant panels?




Compare the output charts carefully.  Be sure to note what SWT they are listing for their outputs.

Most of the heat emitter manufacturers have de-rate tables or formulas to determine outputs at lower temperature and or flow rates.

On some fin tube and panel rads you may be looking at a 40% or more de-rate going from a 180°SWT to 120.


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## Pologuy9906 (Apr 3, 2016)

Bob Rohr said:


> Compare the output charts carefully.  Be sure to note what SWT they are listing for their outputs.
> 
> Most of the heat emitter manufacturers have de-rate tables or formulas to determine outputs at lower temperature and or flow rates.
> 
> On some fin tube and panel rads you may be looking at a 40% or more de-rate going from a 180°SWT to 120.


I started using Pensotti panel radiators. I like the warranty. I believe it was 10 years. I sized each room with low temp. I believe I used 140 degree temp. They performed great in the rooms I put them in. I had to dial them back when the boiler was on. My wife loves it 75-77. Go on Pensotti's website. I believe there's a chart that shows the de-rating as Bob spoke of. Eventually I will do my entire home with them. At least thats the plan.


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## Karl_northwind (Apr 4, 2016)

Pologuy9906 said:


> I started using Pensotti panel radiators. I like the warranty. I believe it was 10 years. I sized each room with low temp. I believe I used 140 degree temp. They performed great in the rooms I put them in. I had to dial them back when the boiler was on. My wife loves it 75-77. Go on Pensotti's website. I believe there's a chart that shows the de-rating as Bob spoke of. Eventually I will do my entire home with them. At least thats the plan.


That's what we use.  our customers love them.


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## Pologuy9906 (Apr 4, 2016)

How do you typically size them?


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## Karl_northwind (Apr 6, 2016)

Pologuy9906 said:


> How do you typically size them?


Download the installation manual from their website.  it has the entire process.


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## dogwood (Apr 6, 2016)

Link to Pensotti installation manual: http://www.pensotti-pna.com/pannel_rad_instalation_manual_final.pdf


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