# Jotul 602 N?



## nola mike (Feb 8, 2011)

Looking at a newer Jotul 602 to replace my non-epa version (which is working great, but I'd like it to be cleaner).  Seller claims it's about 7 years old, has a glass door, and has secondaries--says it's a 602 N, and links to this UK site:
http://www.jotul.com/en-GB/wwwjotulukcom/Main-Menu/Products/Wood--Multi-fuel/Stoves/Jotul-F-602-N/
which shows a solid door.
Any idea of what i'm dealing with? The stove is an hour away, so not that easy to look at in person.


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## webby3650 (Feb 8, 2011)

The 602N appears to be a basic version. I am not familiar with it, if is an EPA model I think it should be a 602cb, ask if it has any other description on the UL label.


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## begreen (Feb 8, 2011)

It followed the original 602 and was the predecessor to the F602CB.
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/13742/


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## nola mike (Feb 8, 2011)

So...is there a difference between the N and CB?  Confusing stuff.  Looks like the N here is EPA/secondary burn, while in UK it's a slightly updated original 602?


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## begreen (Feb 8, 2011)

Maybe just the door? Call and ask if it is the old spin wheel door or the lattice glass door. Confirm that it has the secondary rack.


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## nola mike (Feb 8, 2011)

Seller says the stove has secondaries.  Here are pics from the ad.  Seller confirms that the door is glass.


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## begreen (Feb 8, 2011)

Looks pretty clean on the outside. Did they provide any interior shots?

Consider it almost a CB, maybe a son of a CB.


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## nola mike (Feb 8, 2011)

no interior shots.  i'm trying to figure out what to offer.  missed out on a green CB for $250, which I think was a steal.  I'm thinking $300 or so is fair...


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## nola mike (Feb 9, 2011)

here are some interior pics; owner says both side plates have hairline cracks.  Don't look like a big deal, but will have to be replaced at some point...


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## nola mike (Feb 11, 2011)

So I pulled the trigger, bought the stove and installed ($350 delivered).  it's in great shape.  Very fine hairline crack in the side plate, but no warping and otherwise super clean.  Having a bit of a hard time burning it so far (I'll post if I continue to have problems, but I'm going to replace the glass gasket and seal the top plate first tomorrow).

Anyway, the answer to the question of the difference between a 602N and 602 CB? Not much, it appears.  The sticker on the back says "f 602 CB"  (see the very top), while the front has 602 N cast in.


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## begreen (Feb 11, 2011)

nola mike said:
			
		

> here are some interior pics; owner says both side plates have hairline cracks.  Don't look like a big deal, but will have to be replaced at some point...



I haven't looked at a 602CB interior in years, but I don't remember that twist to the secondary manifold. Have you stopped at a Jotul dealer to compare with a new model? That might be related to the burn problems. I would also pull the back heat shield if possible to examine the condition of the back of the stove. The rear labels looks like it might have gotten hot on the upper right side. Could just be age, but worth checking to be sure that secondary air wasn't leaking up in that corner from a warped manifold.


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## nola mike (Feb 12, 2011)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> nola mike said:
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Eh, crap.  You're right.  Looks like that burn chamber is warped:
http://www.woodmanspartsplus.com/SubPage.aspx?spv_id=740475&spt_id=3

The stove looks real clean otherwise.  Didn't pull the heat shield prior to install, but looked behind it and it looked ok.  Where does the secondary air get fed from?  I'll check out the manifold better tomorrow to see if the warp looks like it's letting air past it...


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## precaud (Feb 12, 2011)

nola mike said:
			
		

> here are some interior pics; owner says both side plates have hairline cracks.  Don't look like a big deal, but will have to be replaced at some point...



Mike, I'm sorry to say but the inside of that stove looks like it has been repeatedly seriously overfired, so much so that several pieces have twisted and warped. Are you sure you want that? Even $100 would be expensive.


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## nola mike (Feb 12, 2011)

well, my mistake for sure.  Got too excited and bought the thing.  So it is what it is at this point.  Replaced the window gasket, which helped immensely.  At least it's burning predictably and like the old 602 now.  But no secondary burn.  I did a closer inspection on the stove today.  Aside from the warped burn chamber, everything else looks good.  Looks like the air chamber is relatively thin steel, whereas everything else is cast iron in the stove.  So that might explain why it's in worse shape than everything else.  There's no discoloration anywhere, the cast manifold above the air chamber is straight (not sure if this is 2 pieces, or if the chamber is integral to the manifold).  We'll have some warm weather this week, so I'll see if I can take it apart further.  But the secondary chambers, at least on the left rear, are allowing air in from the airbox.  So that's the main problem.  Questions:

1) How do I remove the air chamber?  Looks like there are 2 bolts towards the front, that's all I see.  Does that come off separate from the manifold above it?  Do I need to remove the rear shield first?
2) Where is the secondary air supposed to be drawn from?

Looks like I'll need to replace the air chamber at least, but maybe it will be repairable (certainly doesn't look like it though).


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## precaud (Feb 12, 2011)

Mike, you can download the manual from Jotul's website, page 25 shows the internal parts. I've never done a disassembly of one, can't help you there. You may have to contact Jotul for that info.

Secondary air enters at the rear of the stove behind the label holder. It goes up the inner channel (the vertically ribbed piece at the back of the firebox) and into the stainless steel secondary manifold, which is your warped piece. I'm not sure if the manifold can be replaced without disassembling the stove. Either way, 
based on units I've seen, the factory does a pretty sloppy job in final assembly of the F602 - misaligned plates, gaps where there should be none, loose pieces. Please do it carefully and cement all seams inside and out, even ones you don't disassemble. Also, you might consider adding some air holes in the back of the new secondary manifold before putting it in. Look at my thread about F602 mods for details.

May I ask, why did you buy an F602? I predict that you will be unhappy with the F602 as a heater compared to your original 602.


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## nola mike (Feb 12, 2011)

Saw the manual, but I wasn't clear on whether it was one piece or not.  There's definitely a gap between the rear shield and the steel manifold.  So if I can straighten it somewhat, maybe place a little cement...we'll see.

Bought the newer version because 
a) I like the glass door
b) I wanted something more efficient that pollutes less.

Running it now, I'm having no problem getting stove temps up the same as the old one, and it actually seems to light easier.  Once I get the secondaries firing, well, I don't know what that will do, but I guess it should raise the temps a bit more.  Firebox seems the same size; the manifold comes down at the back the same as the baffle did in the old one.  Why would I be unhappy with the new model?


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## precaud (Feb 12, 2011)

I owned both and found the newer one to put out much less heat. If you're happy with it, that all that matters.


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## begreen (Feb 12, 2011)

Neighbors have been heating their little house for 3 years now with the 602CB and last I checked were still happy with it. But I'll ask again when I see them. The newer stove definitely burns cleaner when in good working order. I've learned this now that I am looking out at the stack on the old 602 instead of having over my head. Their stack is usually clear and mine often has a light wisp of smoke until at the coaling stage. 

Ask a good Jotul dealer about disassembly. In your photo, the secondary manifold looks like it is just hanging on the bottom of the baffle. Have you tried removing the center bolt to see if it drops down? If not, I would try removing the baffle and see if it comes out with it. You could remove the side plates too and maybe drill a couple small holes at the start and finish of the crack to stop its progress.


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## nola mike (Feb 13, 2011)

OK, so did a little restoration today.  Removed the manifold, which was just a piece of steel attached to the cast baffle with 3 bolts (only 1 of which I broke).  I was able to wiggle it out with a bit of difficulty, but didn't have to remove anything else.  I was able to straighten it out and reinstall.  So when I started the fire, I got some secondary burn out of the rear tubes for a minute.  After that, I didn't see anything from the holes themselves, but had that lazy appearing-out-of-nowhere flame in the middle of the box, which I think is a secondary burn.  But not shooting out of the holes like on my other stove.  2 possible problems now:
1) Too much primary air.  I replaced the gasket on the glass, but I think I probably used something thicker than stock.  Even shut all the way down I get really active flames in the box.  I think I'm getting too much through the airwash intake.  What a goofy design.  
2) Leaking between the manifold and the sides.  While it fits snugly, the space between the manifold and the side plates is definitely not air tight.  I assume that for this size leak, the effect is secondary air washing down the side burn plates, maybe acting more like a primary intake?  I'm going to throw some cement on it and see what happens.

Here are some pics, you should be able to figure out what's what, since I'm not sure what order they'll post in...


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## precaud (Feb 14, 2011)

Good goin', Mike. If you're not seeing air streams coming out of the holes, then the air is likely getting sucked out the edges and up through the gap around the sides. The manifold originally had cement all around the perimeter to stop the air from leaking.


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## nola mike (Feb 14, 2011)

precaud said:
			
		

> Good goin', Mike. If you're not seeing air streams coming out of the holes, then the air is likely getting sucked out the edges and up through the gap around the sides. The manifold originally had cement all around the perimeter to stop the air from leaking.


Ah, that's what I thought.  I cemented the back, I'll do the sides tomorrow.  Can't believe that piece is $150! Glad I tried to fix it first.  Also, saw your threads about the 602 mods, very interesting.  Did you ever add rear holes to the manifold?  And how do you remove the side burn plates?   Looks like I need to drill out the rivets on the rear heat shield (and replace with what?), and remove the back burn plate to get out the upper baffle.  Much harder than on the old model...

Unfortunately (?) it's going to be in the 70's this week, so may not get a chance to burn much...


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## precaud (Feb 14, 2011)

Yeah, anything made from stainless is expensive, but that borders on ridiculous for such a simple piece. You should probably wire-brush the cast parts before cementing. Don't forget the front too. You want all of the air coming out of those holes.

Yes, I added some rear holes, I think it was described in that thread. The burn plates lift and slide out. If you drill the rivets out, just use sheet metal screws to hold it in place.


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## nola mike (Feb 14, 2011)

Hmmm....sealed it up, still no secondary burn.  Only things I can think of are:
1) blockage in the secondary air intake 
2) too much air through the airwash (would that do it?)
3) leak between the cast upper baffle and exhaust (at the seams), allowing secondary air to go straight up the chimney.


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## precaud (Feb 14, 2011)

#2 I highly doubt, #1 and 3, could be.


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## Lynch (Feb 14, 2011)

cant find the 602 mods thread can you post a link
did some searches still couldn't find it.


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## precaud (Feb 15, 2011)

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/34651/


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## nola mike (Feb 15, 2011)

Well, I think I found the problem.  First (?) pic is what I found in the secondary air intake.  Mostly stove cement with a nice layer of ash on top.  Second pic is my fire this AM after cleaning it out, hopefully you can see the secondary burn...
Just in time for more 70' weather.


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## precaud (Feb 15, 2011)

Success! Excellent!


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## Lynch (Feb 15, 2011)

i know you havent had much time to keep the new stove burning but, what are your thoughts old 602 vs the new one?


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## nola mike (Feb 15, 2011)

Well, I've burned exactly 4 splits since I've had the secondaries going, and the window gasket is still letting too much air in (FWIW I think that turbulence from the excess air was contributing to the poor secondaries as well), but it seems to heat a bit faster, and I'm getting no smoke.  Even burning hot, I got smoke from the old one until it coaled out.  I haven't had any of the problems that precaud mentioned--the stove gets plenty hot just as quick as the old one, and I haven't had any issues with uneven burning.  We'll see if fixing the stove makes the burning better or worse.  BTW, where did this forum come from, and why is this thread in it?


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## Lynch (Feb 16, 2011)

not sure, what were we suppose to be talking about ?

you'll have it fine tuned in no time!


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## precaud (Feb 16, 2011)

Near-term memory lapse, perhaps?  

Don't mean to be argumentative, but there is simply no way you can add over 40 lbs (25%) of iron inside the firebox of a small stove and not affect how hot it gets.


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## nola mike (Feb 16, 2011)

Sure there is.  Shouldn't affect the ultimate temps, though maybe how fast it heats up. Slow heat up time can be mitigated by insulation (new stove has a bit) and airflow (new stove is different, though who knows if it's better).  A secondary burn is taking advantage of btus that would otherwise be lost as smoke.  Airbox isn't any smaller near as I can tell.


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## begreen (Feb 16, 2011)

That's looking a lot better Mike. Nice going. Give us an update on how she's burning after you have a chance to run it for a few days.


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## nola mike (Feb 23, 2011)

Alright then, here's the update...
1.  I was getting secondary burn, but not enthusiastic.  I have the wrong gasket on the glass, letting in too much air (I STILL can't find the correct one locally).  So I mostly sealed the top airwash inlet with more gasket, which made the burns more manageable and a much better secondary burn.  Seems that the turbulence of all that air entering does in fact kill the secondaries.  Either that or air was being preferentially drawn in the front.
2.  Fires are easier to start/catch faster on the new stove.
3.  Precaud is right, in that this may not get as hot as quickly as the old stove.  I noticed that I was getting poor heat output despite 600+' stove top temps.  So I measured elsewhere.  The ONLY part of the stove that was 600' was the cook plate before I reduced the air.  If I measured 1" off of it, the temps are 200' less.  The sides and back are much lower still, and until everything REALLY gets cranking, they're in the 2-300' range.  So what it takes is to get the cook plate to 800+' during the hot part of the burn.  I know this is high, but again, at this point the rest of the stove is in the 600' range, and the flue exit temps are in the 500's.  If I run it this way, then my sides end up in the 500's, and top (aside from the plate) is in the 600's, and I get good heat output.
4.  I think that I get a longer period of hot temps (see above) with this stove.  It does coal up, but the coals are HOT.  I can easily maintain my temps in the high 400's-500's until the coals burn down.  I can burn them down quick if I open the air.
5.  Have more coals in the rear of the stove, but everything still burns down fine.  Still toying with adding more 2' air inlets back there, but I'll wait a bit on that.
6.  It burns MUCH cleaner.  No smoke from the chimney.  Old stove I always had smoke, no matter how hot I was burning.

I think this is trickier to burn than the old one.  If I leave the air open, the cook plate gets hot but nothing else does.  If I close it too early, everything heats evenly but slowly, and nothing gets as hot.  Closing in stages seems to work best (not necessary on the old stove); get it caught, then reduce the air until the flames get just a bit lazy (not violently whipping).  At this point the secondaries kick in more, and everything heats up nice.  Once my cook plate reaches 700-750', I close down all the way or nearly so, it heats up a bit more, and go from there.  Seems like I mess with the air on this one more, but at least part of that is that I can now see the flames I think.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that the old stove heated more uniformly--sides heated quickly, which I think accounts for the difference in heat output.  Again, I think the outputs are close once I get the sides radiating on the new stove.  The insulation on the new stove I assume is the culprit.  It allows the firebox to heat quicker at the expense of radiating heat initially.


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