# So flooring with a wood stove...



## Poindexter (Jul 2, 2017)

The trick is between us my wife and I are allergic to just about everything.  We are pulling up our wall to wall carpet this summer.  

Want to replace it with "something impermeable and low VOC".  Vinyl planks are pretty well not an option becuase of the VOCs.

The remaining contenders are ceramic tile - 1800 sqft of it, hardwood T&G or engineered hardwood faced T&G.

Several issues. 

If we were going to retire here I would just tile and be done with it except for sealing the grout every spring.  Its just the wife and I in the 5 bedroom house our four kids grew up in, with the woodstove on the upper level.  We would like to sell in the two to five year window, before carrying 8 cords of wood upstairs every winter gets to be too much.

My RH readings on the upper level run 8-10 % in the winter, running two gallons per day through the humidifier.  In the summer 60% RH with the windows open is common. 

 I am way outside the recommended RH swing for hardwood.  I have no central air circulation, just hot water baseboard heat and the exhaust fans in the bathrooms.

I have looked at engineered hardwood pretty hard.  FWIW the two most suggested brands up here with wood stoves are Bruce and Somerset.  The install .pdfs for both specify a max 20 point annual RH swing, i got 50 points and few options.

We are looking at recarpeting and living in an apartment while waiting for the house to sell.  By the time new carpet has offgassed enough VOC for my wife to be in the house there will be too much pollen in it for me.

Or we could just bite the bullet and tile it.

Looking for another option.  I am not anxious to give up the wood stove; getting 2/3s of my annual energy without releasing any fossil carbon to the atmosphere is a good feeling.


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## DBoon (Jul 2, 2017)

Poindexter said:


> My RH readings on the upper level run 8-10 % in the winter, running two gallons per day through the humidifier. In the summer 60% RH with the windows open is common.


I wouldn't worry about the RH swings for hardwood so much.  Before installing the wood, make sure it is well acclimated to the indoor RH and choose a 2-1/4" strip flooring of a wood species that doesn't expand as much horizontally (e.g., oak and not maple). 

We never use AC in the humid northeast and we don't have problems with our oak floors.  At a condo with maple floors, some gaps open up in winter, but they are not large and it is not a problem.


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## WoodyIsGoody (Jul 2, 2017)

Poindexter said:


> If we were going to retire here I would just tile and be done with it except for sealing the grout every spring.



Properly installed tile is more durable and requires less maintenance than most people give it credit for due to two reasons:

1) It's rarely installed properly, even by pro's.
2) People slowly damage it with improper care.

Grout is typically the weak link in a tile floor because people fail to use a pH neutral cleaner on it and/or the installer took a shortcut and over-wetted the grout during the install. Runny grout installs much more quickly and over-wetting during the wipe-down phase can save a lot of labor cleaning grout haze off tile surfaces after it hardens. But a drier grout install is much more durable and dense and, with modern sealers and proper cleaning solutions, only needs to be sealed every 5 years or so with moderate residential traffic.

Of course there are epoxy and polyurethane grouts that never need to be sealed and are unlikely to cause issues with allergies. Especially the water based polyurethanes. But I'm a fan of natural, portland cement based grout.


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## begreen (Jul 2, 2017)

A good quality, low VOC bamboo floor can handle wider RH swings. We have it upstairs and it has been great. As for tile, our bathroom floor tile is going on 15 yrs old now and the grout has never been resealed. It looks as good as the day it was installed. 

Another flooring to consider is marmoleum. This is a great product that is very stable, comes in a variety of colors, and with a good artistic installer it can look stunning. We had a friend that used this product for their main flooring in Haines, AK. The result was unique and beautiful.
http://www.forbo.com/flooring/en-us/products/marmoleum/marmoleum-sheet/bygfce


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## moey (Jul 4, 2017)

I know its a lot colder where you are. But 8-10% for RH seems very low arent you walking around with bloody noses and cracked skin?


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## semipro (Jul 5, 2017)

Poindexter said:


> My RH readings on the upper level run 8-10 % in the winter, running two gallons per day through the humidifier. In the summer 60% RH with the windows open is common.
> 
> I am way outside the recommended RH swing for hardwood. I have no central air circulation, just hot water baseboard heat and the exhaust fans in the bathrooms.
> 
> I have looked at engineered hardwood pretty hard. FWIW the two most suggested brands up here with wood stoves are Bruce and Somerset. The install .pdfs for both specify a max 20 point annual RH swing, i got 50 points and few options.



We live in a similar situation with similar RH swings and windows open in the summer.  We've had no problems with the engineered wood floors installed in our house.  Because of its plywood-like construction its more dimensionally stable than solid wood.  Ours is a "floating" also which allows shrinking and expansion.  

We love ceramic tile but have had problems with heavy objects falling on it and breaking it (plates, glass jars, etc.).


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## bfitz3 (Jul 6, 2017)

Just an opinion... If you are going to sell, I think most people would find 1800 ft of tile to be cold and clinical vs a warmer inviting feel from wood.


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## blades (Jul 6, 2017)

Or a couple splits of oak


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## begreen (Jul 6, 2017)

Poindexter said:


> I have looked at engineered hardwood pretty hard. FWIW the two most suggested brands up here with wood stoves are Bruce and Somerset. The install .pdfs for both specify a max 20 point annual RH swing, i got 50 points and few options.


Like that is realistic in 90% of America? Sounds like a totally controlled environment one would see in a commercial installation. Your 50% swing is not all that untypical and was pretty normal before the ubiquity of air conditioning. The house I grew up in back east had no AC with hardwood floors that saw down to 15% in the winter and 80+% in the summer. Our house will go from 25% to 75% over the course of the year depending on the season and weather. White oak floors downstairs and bamboo upstairs. The bamboo is dead stabile. The only place we see the oak change is right in front of the wood stove.


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## Ashful (Jul 6, 2017)

begreen said:


> Like that is realistic in 90% of America? Sounds like a totally controlled environment one would see in a commercial installation. Your 50% swing is not all that untypical and was pretty normal before the ubiquity of air conditioning. The house I grew up in back east had no AC with hardwood floors that saw down to 15% in the winter and 80+% in the summer. Our house will go from 25% to 75% over the course of the year depending on the season and weather. White oak floors downstairs and bamboo upstairs. The bamboo is dead stabile. The only place we see the oak change is right in front of the wood stove.


You beat me to it.  Our typical RH% is 80% in summer, and we often see RH numbers in the 90%'s.  The house has been without summer air conditioning most of it's life, and all winter we sit around 20%.  Because of the thick stone walls, on these high-humidity days, our RH is higher indoors than out, thanks to the temperature drop.

Meanwhile, I have about 6000 sq.ft. of mixed hardwood and softwood flooring, much of it over 240 years old.  No issues, other than the gaps between boards are slightly wider in winter, and tighter in summer.  It was designed to move, which is why wood floor has been so popular for hundreds of years.

What is this supposed narrow RH% range allowed for natural wood flooring?


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## Poindexter (Jul 6, 2017)

When i go looking at the install guides and online warranty statements of prefinished solid hardwood T&G flooring, and similar for hardwood faced engineered T&G, i find 20% ranges.  30-50% RH is the most common.  I have seen 25-45 and 35-55.

I hadn't thought about hardwood flooring being popular before ac was invented, that is a really good point.  Thanks for that one.


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## Ashful (Jul 6, 2017)

I'm no national expert, but I can say that without question, it was the primary flooring used in this part of the country from the late 1600's up through the invention of air conditioning.  It sounds like the manufacturers have just found a way to limit their warranty exposure, as the ranges they dictate here are completely unreasonable for residential applications in many of the most highly-populated parts of the country (eg. the entire east coast!).

I have no experience with pre-finished floors, or engineered wood floors, but I've laid and owned miles upon miles of proper wood flooring (finished in place).  Never a problem, with any of them, but I'll admit we never get down to single-digit RH's, like you.


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## moey (Jul 7, 2017)

Ashful said:


> I'm no national expert, but I can say that without question, it was the primary flooring used in this part of the country from the late 1600's up through the invention of air conditioning.  It sounds like the manufacturers have just found a way to limit their warranty exposure, as the ranges they dictate here are completely unreasonable for residential applications in many of the most highly-populated parts of the country (eg. the entire east coast!).
> 
> I have no experience with pre-finished floors, or engineered wood floors, but I've laid and owned miles upon miles of proper wood flooring (finished in place).  Never a problem, with any of them, but I'll admit we never get down to single-digit RH's, like you.



I suspect although I have no knowledge flooring was installed with gaps hundreds of years ago. It was hand nailed and boards probably were not that straight to start with. It was often nailed through the face as well so boards were not pushed together tight. Today its installed basically as physically tight as you can get it.


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## Ashful (Jul 7, 2017)

moey said:


> I suspect although I have no knowledge flooring was installed with gaps hundreds of years ago. It was hand nailed and boards probably were not that straight to start with. It was often nailed through the face as well so boards were not pushed together tight. Today its installed basically as physically tight as you can get it.



I've face-nailed many rooms of wood flooring, and I set the gap according to the season.  If it's August, I'll just use my .040" thick 6" metal scales as gap gauges, since I know it's not likely to expand much beyond its present state.  If it's February, I leave more generous gaps, sometimes using gauges over 3/32" thick.

In terms of boards being not straight, don't underestimate the skill and precision of builders of old.  Their processes were more labor-intensive, without motorized machinery, but no less accurate.  The older wood in my house may be more consistent and straight than the newer parts, given the higher quality of base material (old growth vs. saplings).


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## bfitz3 (Jul 7, 2017)

Ashful said:


> I've face-nailed many rooms of wood flooring, and I set the gap according to the season.  If it's August, I'll just use my .040" thick 6" metal scales as gap gauges, since I know it's not likely to expand much beyond its present state.  If it's February, I leave more generous gaps, sometimes using gauges over 3/32" thick.
> 
> In terms of boards being not straight, don't underestimate the skill and precision of builders of old.  Their processes were more labor-intensive, without motorized machinery, but no less accurate.  The older wood in my house may be more consistent and straight than the newer parts, given the higher quality of base material (old growth vs. saplings).


My previous house, a Victorian in distress, had 3/4 wide t&g cherry flooring upstairs, proof that child labor was allowed when it was built, and stunning oak flooring downstairs. The oak was installed in spirals around the room. Each board ran the full length of whatever space it was in, some boards were 13 feet long. I obviously have no idea what the reject rate was on material when they built the house, but have a feeling it was better than the 25% return rate on my modern cut, pre finished, knot so clear, inconsistent grained and colored Bruce oak flooring. Anyway... The point is that a quality, properly installed wood floor can last 100 years, even if it gets some abuse.

I found one picture that shows the spiral pattern in the entry. This is post remodel, post housing collapse, pre realizing losing 20 grand and god knows how many hours of my life rehabbing a house.


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## Ashful (Jul 7, 2017)

bfitz3 said:


> This is post remodel, post housing collapse, pre realizing losing 20 grand and god knows how many hours of my life rehabbing a house.
> View attachment 198399


Very cool floors!  It's never a total loss, if you enjoy the process, or living in the space.


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## iron (Jul 9, 2017)

definitely don't do tile. that would look horrible.


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## sportbikerider78 (Jul 19, 2017)

WoodyIsGoody said:


> Properly installed tile is more durable and requires less maintenance than most people give it credit for due to two reasons:
> 
> 1) It's rarely installed properly, even by pro's.
> 2) People slowly damage it with improper care.
> ...



I've used the poly based grouts with great success.  Basically, zero maintenance.  Just a nice cleaning and some patience. 

I LOVE tile.  To be it is a no brainer if you have pets.


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## Squirrely (Jul 19, 2017)

Poindexter said:


> Or we could just bite the bullet and tile it.



We tiled and love it. 
The whole floor is a hearth, and wherever we want carpet we use orientals.

Greg


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