# Basement flue with no bottom clean out?



## NVHunter (May 16, 2015)

Ok,

We moved into a new to us home two weeks ago.  I want to install a wood stove for supplemental heat and this house has a dual flue in the masonry chimney, one larger flue for the top level fireplace, and a second 7" X 11" terra-cotta flue for the daylight basement wood stove hookup requiring a thimble through the cinder block wall where a hole has been cut out.

I already had a thread regarding lining the smaller flue with a Stainless Steel liner so I've got those question out of the way, but now I have a new question.

With installing a new liner you install a T clean out at the bottom of the flue correct?

My question / concern is the smaller flue in the basement does not have an open bottom for a clean out.  The flue stops at the opening in the cinder block wall where the thimble goes....

I stuck my camera up into the clean out in the bottom of the chimney outside and looked up the chimney.  The smaller flue has a cinder block bottom sealing it completely up...

Is this a problem?  Do I need a T clean out to install the stainless liner?  If so, do I need to have a hole cut out of the bottom of this flue to make room for the T clean out?

Here are some pictures of the hole for the thimble, and pictures of the bottom of the fireplace and cinder block bottom of the smaller flue.

Mike


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## webby3650 (May 16, 2015)

I'm not sure what I'm looking at in the pics. 
You do not need a clean out for the flue per say. But, you do need at least 2" of space below the thimble for the bottom of the Tee and Tee cap.


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## NVHunter (May 16, 2015)

webby3650 said:


> I'm not sure what I'm looking at in the pics.
> You do not need a clean out for the flue per say. But, you do need at least 2" of space below the thimble for the bottom of the Tee and Tee cap.



Sorry I want to lable the pictures but didn't know how.

The pictures of the gray blocks are looking up at the bottom of the smaller flue where it's sealed off. I took these pictures from the clean out access at the bottom of the chimney. 

The second picture of the black hole is from inside the house in the basement where the thimble will go. I was trying to show how it's full of debris and stops right there with no clean out at the bottom.


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## webby3650 (May 16, 2015)

Clean out all the debris so you can tell if there is any room below the thimble.


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## bholler (May 17, 2015)

I believe that Technically to be to code you do need a clean out on a chimney servicing a solid fuel appliance needs to have a clean out.  But i have never seen that enforced i would rather see a clean out and if possible we put one in but as long as you have enough drop for the bottom of the tee you should be ok.


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## webby3650 (May 17, 2015)

bholler said:


> I believe that Technically to be to code you do need a clean out on a chimney servicing a solid fuel appliance needs to have a clean out.  But i have never seen that enforced i would rather see a clean out and if possible we put one in but as long as you have enough drop for the bottom of the tee you should be ok.


Are saying that a Tee with a cap isn't up to code? I know that the original masonry chimney was supposed to have a clean out below the thimble, but once its retrofitted with a SS liner it's a sealed system servicing an appliance. I wouldn't be surprised if there is some silly out of date code that still requires a clean out. If that chimney needs cleaned, so does the connector pipe. It's easy to Pull the pipe and and clean out the Tee.


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## bholler (May 17, 2015)

webby3650 said:


> Are saying that a Tee with a cap isn't up to code? I know that the original masonry chimney was supposed to have a clean out below the thimble, but once its retrofitted with a SS liner it's a sealed system servicing an appliance. I wouldn't be surprised if there is some silly out of date code that still requires a clean out. If that chimney needs cleaned, so does the connector pipe. It's easy to Pull the pipe and and clean out the Tee.


Yes as far as i know it is still required by code.  I still prefer to put them in when possible but I agree I don't feel it is necessary either because like you said the pipe should always come down anyway but you do want the drop of the tee so there is a little room for stuff to fall without obstructing the flow


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## NVHunter (May 18, 2015)

Okay, I cleaned out the bottom of the flue.  Its very uneven with mortar and chunks of cinder block throughout it.  The deepest point below the thimble hole is 4-5" with a corner of a cinder block sticking out into the bottom of the flue 3" to 4".  The corner of the cinder block is 1.5" below the thimble hole.  I think I'm going to have to chisel the bottom of the flue out to make room for the tee and to make it more uniform and clean.  It looks like they just threw a bunch of blocks and clay tiles together to build the interior of this damn thing...

As far as a clean out in the chimney, there is one below both flues.  The fireplace flue is just sealed up, just as it would be if it had a stainless steel liner in it. 





Here are a few photos of the flue.

One of the flue looking up with an offset of 20 degrees or so.

Two more of the thimble hole and the uneven floor of the flue...

Should I chisel it smooth?

Mike


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## NVHunter (May 18, 2015)

No inquiries or thoughts on the pictures of the flue bottom?


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## bholler (May 18, 2015)

NVHunter said:


> No inquiries or thoughts on the pictures of the flue bottom?



We don't know how much your tee cap sticks down and if there is room for it or not.  If you have room then no need to do anything if you dont you will need to chisel out some of that block.  And yes it is a pita to do


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## NVHunter (May 18, 2015)

Thanks, I don't mind hard work. Rather do a good job and pay attention to detail the first time then have to do it over again. I guess that's why I like to do things myself if I can, can't stand sub par work, which it looks like was done putting this flue in 40 years ago...

Thanks. 

Mike


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## bholler (May 19, 2015)

NVHunter said:


> which it looks like was done putting this flue in 40 years ago...


I am not saying this to demean masons there are some fantastic masons out there but many have no clue how to properly build a chimney.  And 40 years ago pretty much non of them did.   Yours honestly is not bad at all for the time it was built that was pretty standard.


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## Chinneysweep187 (May 19, 2015)

Forgot about the clean out . They are important for masonry where the masonry will crumble and fall down . In your case I would say not needed when you get your liner measure tee with tee cap on and compare to size of thimble opening . If it won't make it I would just cut the bottom of the tee down to give you more room . As long as you check it every year you should be fine and clean it out when necessary. Get a slip connector for the tee to make disassembling easy .


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## Chinneysweep187 (May 19, 2015)

Also needs insulation for the liner fyi


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## webby3650 (May 19, 2015)

Chinneysweep187 said:


> Forgot about the clean out . They are important for masonry where the masonry will crumble and fall down . In your case I would say not needed when you get your liner measure tee with tee cap on and compare to size of thimble opening . If it won't make it I would just cut the bottom of the tee down to give you more room . As long as you check it every year you should be fine and clean it out when necessary. Get a slip connector for the tee to make disassembling easy .


Only about an inch is gained by trimming the tee down. That will help, hope it's enough!


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## bholler (May 19, 2015)

Chinneysweep187 said:


> would just cut the bottom of the tee down to give you more room


You do realize that doing that voids the ul listing of the entire system.  Not saying i haven't done it but only as a last resort if i cant clear enough space and never for a wood stove.  There is going to be deposits in the chimney even if you are burning right and that space was put there by the people who designed the liner and its components to allow for a little bit of dirt buildup.  I agree that a clean out is not necessary i still put them in when possible but they are not needed but i would not recommend cutting the tee for a wood stove


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## bholler (May 19, 2015)

Chinneysweep187 said:


> Also needs insulation for the liner fyi


Yes i agree totally


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## NVHunter (May 19, 2015)

bholler said:


> Yes i agree totally



Yes if there's not enough room at the bottom of the tee I will make room, ie: chisel out some space below for the tee to sit. 

The tee and thimble all need to be insulated as well correct. Only makes sense I'd think. Is that what you were stating above Chimneysweep187?

I'm most likely going to use a 7" liner ovalize down to 4.5"x 9.1" or 5" x 8.75" for the inside 7"X11" diameter flue. 

How much diameter does the insulation add to the liner? 1/2" insulation adds 1" correct?  Rockford Chimney Supply states their 1/2" insulation adds 1.5". Is that true? If so where's the extra 1/2" coming from?

Thanks


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## bholler (May 19, 2015)

You need to allow for 1.5" and it is going to be hard to get through those offsets


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## NVHunter (May 20, 2015)

I looked at the fireplace inspection when we were buying the house. The sweep checked off that the woodstove flue is 8"x13".

I can't find the inside dimensions for an 8"x13" flue out there but I have found an 8.5"x13".

The spreadsheet stated that flues inside diameter is: 6 3/4" x 11 3/8".

Only oval flue I could feasible use would be the 4.5" x 9.1" which with insulation would be 6" x 10.6" which would give me 3/4" of play around the inside of the flue.... This looks to be the only insulated option I have.

That or break out the flue which you said could damage the fireplaces flue also. The two flue are pretty close together at the crown of the chimney.

I'm determined to put a stove in this house and it has to use this chimney....

Frustrating


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## bholler (May 20, 2015)

NVHunter said:


> Only oval flue I could feasible use would be the 4.5" x 9.1" which with insulation would be 6" x 10.6" which would give me 3/4" of play around the inside of the flue.... This looks to be the only insulated option I have.
> That or break out the flue which you said could damage the fireplaces flue also. The two flue are pretty close together at the crown of the chimney.


I would have a good reputable sweep out and tell you if the tiles can be broken out it may be fine to break out.  But that is not a diy job so you would have to get a quote for that.  But yes that oval will fit it is just a question of whether you will be able to make it through the offsets or not.  It may go right through What type of liner are you planning on using?   Heavy flex or the mid weight stuff has a smaller od and is more flexible it generally goes through offsets better


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## NVHunter (May 20, 2015)

I'll call around and have a few sweeps come out to see what they say. Is there any safety difference between the heavy flex or the mild weight liners?


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## bholler (May 20, 2015)

It is not a safety issue it is more about durability.  For customers who will be using their stove all the time we use heavy flex for occasional burners we will sometimes use mid weight we never use light wall for wood stoves but it can work fine we just prefer the heavier stuff with more metal and smooth walls.


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## Chinneysweep187 (May 20, 2015)

The liners I use can shave off about 2 or 3 inches cutting the bottom of the tee. Bholler I totally agree with you it's mostly for furnaces you should do that but if you can't make the room in the bottom of the thimble then I would do it. And your also right about a decent amount of build up in the chimney no matter what but I figured it'll it's a person doing this liner their self they would probably be the type to take the stove pipe off mid season and check for creosote which I always do at my house .


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## Chinneysweep187 (May 20, 2015)

In my opinions though if you can break the bottom of thimble out I would drop the liner with no tee cap and then everything would drop down to your normal clean out


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## webby3650 (May 20, 2015)

Chinneysweep187 said:


> In my opinions though if you can break the bottom of thimble out I would drop the liner with no tee cap and then everything would drop down to your normal clean out


You never want to do a re-line Tee system and leave the cap off. It's part of the system and needs to used!


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## Chinneysweep187 (May 20, 2015)

What's the point if it drops down to a masonry clean out ?


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## webby3650 (May 20, 2015)

I assume bholler runs a piece of liner off the bottom of the Tee and then uses the cap on the bottom of the Tee extension. So the original clean out door is usable.


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## webby3650 (May 20, 2015)

Chinneysweep187 said:


> What's the point if it drops down to a masonry clean out ?


Because the masonry clean out can leak air causing major problems. A re-line is intended to be a sealed system, from the stove-top to the chimney cap.


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## bholler (May 20, 2015)

Chinneysweep187 said:


> In my opinions though if you can break the bottom of thimble out I would drop the liner with no tee cap and then everything would drop down to your normal clean out


That is absolutely the wrong thin to do it would let air in to the bottom of the system which is a terrible idea.  The system need to be a sealed system which means you need to run liner down to the clean out and use a second tee.  Then seal it all up and use a good tight door or use a tee cap over the opening which ever works best.


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## bholler (May 20, 2015)

webby3650 said:


> I assume bholler runs a piece of liner off the bottom of the Tee and then uses the cap on the bottom of the Tee extension. So the original clean out door is usable.


Yes 




webby3650 said:


> Because the masonry clean out can leak air causing major problems. A re-line is intended to be a sealed system, from the stove-top to the chimney cap.


And yes


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## Chinneysweep187 (May 20, 2015)

If it's some crap clean out from the 60s then I agree but my clean out is a masonry door with a gasket . Leaked air is not a problem . Also you could simply silicone the door .


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## Chinneysweep187 (May 20, 2015)

bholler said:


> That is absolutely the wrong thin to do it would let air in to the bottom of the system which is a terrible idea.  The system need to be a sealed system which means you need to run liner down to the clean out and use a second tee.  Then seal it all up and use a good tight door or use a tee cap over the opening which ever works best.


I agree with that and have done it many times but in his scenario it seems like a lot of work


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## bholler (May 20, 2015)

Chinneysweep187 said:


> I agree with that and have done it many times but in his scenario it seems like a lot of work


If you agree why did you propose leaving the tee cap off?   In my opinion that is just a half assed way to install a liner.  Like i said before i dont really have an issue with no clean out but if there isn't one you need the drop of the tee.


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## Chinneysweep187 (May 20, 2015)

I said that because the ways the pictures looked it seemed like a lot of work to open up bottom of the thimble . Probably would have to rebuild part of the wall to properly get in there to demo it out .


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## Chinneysweep187 (May 20, 2015)

but the way you mentioned is definitely preferred also idk what I was thinking at the time because if the thimble has a bottom you can't leave the tee cap off to begin with lol


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## bholler (May 20, 2015)

Chinneysweep187 said:


> but the way you mentioned is definitely preferred


Not just preferred but required by just about every liner manufacturer


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## bholler (May 20, 2015)

Chinneysweep187 said:


> I said that because the ways the pictures looked it seemed like a lot of work to open up bottom of the thimble . Probably would have to rebuild part of the wall to properly get in there to demo it out .


I am not trying to pick on you i am sorry if it seems that way but some of the was just wrong and as a pro I feel obligated to correct you


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## Chinneysweep187 (May 20, 2015)

bholler said:


> Not just preferred but required by just about every liner manufacturer


Putting an extension on the tee is not in the manufacturers instructions and violates the listing but okay


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## bholler (May 20, 2015)

Chinneysweep187 said:


> Putting an extension on the tee is not in the manufacturers instructions and violates the listing but okay


Yes it is in many manufacturers instructions what brand pipe are you referring to?  Do they allow for an open system?  Because to pass the ul 1777 it need to be a sealed system.  So if their instructions say other wise they are violating the ul listing


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## Chinneysweep187 (May 20, 2015)

Which manufacturer allows you to extend the tee and please provide the proper references


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## Chinneysweep187 (May 20, 2015)

And I still don't see how a clean out with a sealed door is an open system .


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## bholler (May 20, 2015)

Chinneysweep187 said:


> Which manufacturer allows you to extend the tee and please provide the proper references


Olympia ventinox copperfeild simpson.  Those are the ones i know of off hand.   




Chinneysweep187 said:


> And I still don't see how a clean out with a sealed door is an open system .


Because the liner is not sealed there for it is not a sealed system.


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## BrotherBart (May 20, 2015)




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## Chinneysweep187 (May 20, 2015)

the clean out is an extension of the liner also and if no air is getting in then it is a sealed system


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## webby3650 (May 20, 2015)

My best friend had a brand new house built. Had a new masonry chimney built with an 8" rigid SS liner right from the start. The "certified" installer left the Tee cap off. 
The first in incident: stove overfired uncontrollably for no apparent reason.
Second incident: stove quit drawing mid burn. They came home to a new house full of smoke and an unconscious dog! 
The clean out door wasn't sealed and was bypassing the stove completely. If the installer had half a brain, he would have put the clean out door at Tee level so he could reach in and remove the Tee cap. Not to mention clean it without getting on the 12 pitch roof!


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## Chinneysweep187 (May 20, 2015)

Also I can't find in the instructions where it allows a tee extension what section would that be in.


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## webby3650 (May 20, 2015)

Chinneysweep187 said:


> the clean out is an extension of the liner also and if no air is getting in then it is a sealed system


This is an incorrect way to install a liner. The Tee cap is NOT an option. I don't want anyone researching this topic to run across this thread and get wrong info.


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## Chinneysweep187 (May 20, 2015)

webby3650 said:


> My best friend had a brand new house built. Had a new masonry chimney built with an 8" rigid SS liner right from the start. The "certified" installer left the Tee cap off.
> The first in incident: stove overfired uncontrollably for no apparent reason.
> Second incident: stove quit drawing mid burn. They came home to a new house full of smoke and an unconscious dog!
> The clean out door wasn't sealed and was bypassing the stove completely. If the installer had half a brain, he would have put the clean out door at Tee level so he could reach in and remove the Tee cap. Not to mention clean it without getting on the 12 pitch roof!


Yes but I am making sure the clean out is sealed which he obviously did nothing t. That's why they make draft gauges and such


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## Chinneysweep187 (May 20, 2015)

A lot of older clean out doors are not air tight what so ever


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## Chinneysweep187 (May 20, 2015)

Why didn't you install said liner for your best friend


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## webby3650 (May 20, 2015)

Chinneysweep187 said:


> Why didn't you install said liner for your best friend


Because I didn't want to. I tried to talk him out of this set-up and go with a class A chimney system. But this guy was "cheap"!


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## Chinneysweep187 (May 20, 2015)

Word. Also if the air from clean out was by passing the stove completely how did the stove over fire to begin with considering it obviously had no draft


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## NVHunter (May 21, 2015)

Wow...  Didn't mean to start such a heated discussion.... I think if I need room I'll chisel out some of the brick and mortar to make room for the tee. The chimney's clean out is a good 4 plus feet below the thimble level and it's the "60s" style steel door with no seal what so ever. 

I'll just disconnect the stove pipe each time I clean the liner and remove the buildup at that time while sweeping the stove pipe too. Not a huge deal I think.

Thank you to all for the input. 

Mike


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## bholler (May 21, 2015)

NVHunter said:


> The chimney's clean out is a good 4 plus feet below the thimble level and it's the "60s" style steel door with no seal what so ever.


And that door is for the ash drop on the fireplace correct?  It would be allot of work to put in a clean out and would not be worth it at all you have the right idea just clear a little bit so you have enough room and you will be good.


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## bholler (May 21, 2015)

Chinneysweep187 said:


> the clean out is an extension of the liner also and if no air is getting in then it is a sealed system


How could you possibly confirm there is no air getting into the system?  There can be gaps in liners open block cores in the crock and cleanout and lots of other potential areas for air leaks in an old clay lined chimney.  Not to mention the door which is usually not sealed well at all.  And regardless to pas the ul tests that liner system needs to be a sealed system separate from the rest of the chimney  Which if you leave the tee cap off it is not.




Chinneysweep187 said:


> That's why they make draft gauges and such


So you are going to install it start a fire and get everything up to temp so you can test the draft and if you dont have enough you are then going to pull the liner and put the cap on?  That would be much easier than just putting the cap on to start with.


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## webby3650 (May 21, 2015)

Chinneysweep187 said:


> Word. Also if the air from clean out was by passing the stove completely how did the stove over fire to begin with considering it obviously had no draft


Two separate incidents within a week or two.
I have since moved the clean out door up to Tee level so I could cap it. Hasn't experienced any issues in the 3 seasons since I fixed it. It would have been so much easier to do it right the first time.


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## NVHunter (May 21, 2015)

bholler said:


> And that door is for the ash drop on the fireplace correct?  It would be allot of work to put in a clean out and would not be worth it at all you have the right idea just clear a little bit so you have enough room and you will be good.


Yes just for the fireplace. Other flue is sealed up from clean out location.


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