# New Generator for New House



## whtoak (Aug 30, 2020)

Hello all,

My house is getting  closer to being finished and I am looking hard at generators. I am currently looking at a Yamaha 7200. Does anyone have any experience with Yamaha generators. It is in a good price range for me compared to the Honda. 

The only items I am concerned about running are the lights, refrigerator, freezer, TV and well pump. I am not really concerned with hot water or running the ac unit. 

Any advice on this would be greatly appreciated. Is this going to be enough generator? Do I need step up to a 10,000 watt generator to make sure I definitely have enough power? I am a novice when it comes to generators and want to make the right decision.

Thanks


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## johneh (Aug 30, 2020)

If you are on gas or propane get a whole-house automatic 
unit (Gen teck is one) Comes on when the power goes out
 turns off when it comes back on. I have a 22 Kwatt unit that 
runs everything including hot water and well pump. Put it in after 
being without power for 29 days in 1997 (ice Storm) Been out 4 
times for more than a week 4 times  in the last 10 years one of the
 best investments in my home I have made








						Powering your home, your business, your world.
					

website




					www.generac.com
				



This is what I have it came with everything 
The Price is in Canadian dollars


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## hockeypuck (Aug 30, 2020)

Do you have a deep well pump or is it a shallow pump. I ran my house on a 4500 watt genny with a shallow, oil boiler.   Kept the fridge and a few other circuits going.  I now have an 8 kw that runs everything, with simple precautions, like dont run the dryer and stove together.   Do you have an electric range or gas?  I would get the quietest generator you can afford.   It gets old listening to cheap oversized generators.


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## peakbagger (Aug 30, 2020)

If you are building a new house, have the deep well pump set up with a variable speed drive. It draws a lot less current on start up and in general is superior to standard on/off well pump. One brand is Franklin Mono Drive but expect the competitors have competing units.


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## brenndatomu (Aug 30, 2020)

My well pump seems to run fine on my 6500w genny...~110' deep IIRC.
I used to work at a Honda/Yamaha dealership...we sold a ton of Honda's...hard to beat! But the few Yamaha gennys I serviced seemed like good units too.
Agree with the variable speed pumps...


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## whtoak (Aug 30, 2020)

hockeypuck said:


> Do you have a deep well pump or is it a shallow pump. I ran my house on a 4500 watt genny with a shallow, oil boiler.   Kept the fridge and a few other circuits going.  I now have an 8 kw that runs everything, with simple precautions, like dont run the dryer and stove together.   Do you have an electric range or gas?  I would get the quietest generator you can afford.   It gets old listening to cheap oversized generators.


I have a deep well.


brenndatomu said:


> My well pump seems to run fine on my 6500w genny...~110' deep IIRC.
> I used to work at a Honda/Yamaha dealership...we sold a ton of Honda's...hard to beat! But the few Yamaha gennys I serviced seemed like good units too.
> Agree with the variable speed pumps...


 I will have to ask my builder about the variable speed pumps. My well is 185 ft deep. I really like the Honda's as well but the Yamaha is right much cheaper. The dealer has both Honda's and Yamaha's.


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## brenndatomu (Aug 30, 2020)

whtoak said:


> I have a deep well.


I don't think depth will matter a ton...starting will be the big amp draw (on a standard pump) but depth will affect the running amp draw more so, which will always be the lesser of the two.


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## maple1 (Aug 30, 2020)

I run all that stuff, with a 3200w inverter gennie. We only have a shallow well pump tho.

How often and for how long are power outages there? Typically? We can also get through a day without running the pump at all. With what water our 3 toilets hold plus what the water tank holds. For me, here, low fuel use trumps everything else gennie related. Big gennies can burn a lot of fuel.


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## brenndatomu (Aug 30, 2020)

Inverter gennys are sweet...big ones are spendy


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## begreen (Aug 30, 2020)

I have a friend that uses a Honda 6500 on their deep well pump, no sweat at all. The Yamaha should be able to handle it. The other stuff could be handled by a generator 1/3 that size.  I have a propane fired (dual fuel) Yamaha 2400 that we run 2 refrigs, and a freezer on with power to spare for a few lights and tv. It's an inverter generator that is more friendly to electronics and UPSs for charging. Our UPSs wouldn't run on the previous 4.8kW generator.


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## fbelec (Aug 31, 2020)

your 7200 watt should be more than you need/ with that you could run most thing at the same time. well pump is no problem. you can run a electric stove on it just becareful of how much of it you run at the same time. small burners are 1500 watts big burner is 2000 to 2500 watts each and the oven should be 3500 watts give or take 500 watts for the name of the stove. dryer is 5000 watts washer is 1200 to 1400 watts
have your electrician install a portable generator interlock it will power your whole panel so you will have lights everywhere without a issue. after all what good is a generator if you have to take a candle to go to the john.


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## maple1 (Aug 31, 2020)

If we did have a deep well pump and needed a bigger gennie because of it, I would have 2 gennies.

A bigger 240v one just for running the pump (6000w+/-, Champions are good and they are cheap). And a smaller 120v inverter for everything else - and then some, they are really easy to take places & use for other things. Should only need to run the pump a minute or so a couple times a day. If you also have a water tank. And a couple or 3 toilets. Even a big jug or bucket to hold extra for drinking or toilet flushing. Which is a huge waste of gas, to have a big gennie running all the time for.

If we were lucky enough to have NG here, then an autostart whole house jobbie would be a consideration.

All comes down to your situation. And fuel supply. Ours is gas in jugs. closest gas is 15 minutes away. Close to an hour away, with huge lineups, in Dorian with all the wide spread outages that caused.


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## begreen (Aug 31, 2020)

whtoak said:


> I will have to ask my builder about the variable speed pumps. My well is 185 ft deep. I really like the Honda's as well but the Yamaha is right much cheaper. The dealer has both Honda's and Yamaha's.


My buddy's is around 265', no problem.


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## peakbagger (Aug 31, 2020)

The depth of the well is rarely the issue, its the standing level of the water in the well. I have  330 foot well but the standing water level is around 40 feet.


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## Highbeam (Aug 31, 2020)

maple1 said:


> If we did have a deep well pump and needed a bigger gennie because of it, I would have 2 gennies.
> 
> A bigger 240v one just for running the pump (6000w+/-, Champions are good and they are cheap). And a smaller 120v inverter for everything else - and then some, they are really easy to take places & use for other things. Should only need to run the pump a minute or so a couple times a day. If you also have a water tank. And a couple or 3 toilets. Even a big jug or bucket to hold extra for drinking or toilet flushing. Which is a huge waste of gas, to have a big gennie running all the time for.
> 
> ...



Great post and points. There is no reason to have a 7200 watt genset droning away all day sucking up vast quantities of gasoline when you only need to cycle the well pump a few times per day. Get a reasonable quality big 6000-10000 watt genset like a champion and run it only when needing to run the well or for any other 240 volt loads. That big guy will suck down about 1/2 gallon per hour.

Then swap over to your much more efficient inverter generator of 2000-3000 watts 120 volt for powering the rest of the home. Lights, refrigeration, entertainment, etc. The little guy will idle along making exceptionally clean power, super quiet, and with high efficiency of about 12 hours per gallon of gasoline. 

Another thing this gives you is redundancy. If either genset fails, you can at least keep everything but the well pump running. I like the ability to run propane or gasoline for extra flexibility too but gasoline is more important.

Finally, it will be cheaper to buy a small inverter for $500-1000 and then a big 6000-10000 watt champion for another 750$ than it is to buy the ridiculously expensive 7200 watt yamaha.



peakbagger said:


> The depth of the well is rarely the issue, its the standing level of the water in the well. I have  330 foot well but the standing water level is around 40 feet.



Right, and the only time it really matters is when the "shallow" well is shallow enough to use a little jet pump instead of a 240 volt submersible. 



whtoak said:


> Hello all,
> 
> My house is getting  closer to being finished and I am looking hard at generators. I am currently looking at a Yamaha 7200. Does anyone have any experience with Yamaha generators. It is in a good price range for me compared to the Honda.
> 
> ...



Good luck. I would be asking the well driller about the variable flow rate pumps instead of old school on/off systems with big bladder tanks. The power demand is lower which will pay you back forever. I hear they actually last a long time since they don't bang on and off so violently.


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## whtoak (Aug 31, 2020)

The yamaha was priced ay $ 1700 after tax. I believe the Honda 6500 was priced at $ 2200.  I only plan on running the water when needed. Where I live in Virginia, sometimes the power can be out for a week or more if a bad storm comes through. My parents were out one time for two weeks. We don't loose it all the time but where I am building, if it goes out it might be days before I get it back. I don't want to be stuck without power anymore. 

Thanks for all the posts so far. I appreciate all the insight. I know some of you have suggested 2 generators but I really wanted to just have one generator to handle all of my needs. I am a big Honda fan and based on the responses it sounds like the Honda 6500 will handle what I am looking for to run when the power is out. I also believe the Yamaha would do good as well. I still have a couple of months to decide on this.


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## maple1 (Aug 31, 2020)

Just make sure you go in knowing fuel consumption.


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## Highbeam (Aug 31, 2020)

I thought you were choosing a big inverter Yamaha or Honda. Those puppies are up near 5000$! 1700$ tells me you’re looking at contractor sets and spending a premium for a brand name.

If you’re going big open frame portable then just get a champion and plan on lots of gasoline on hand. Like lots. Like so much that you’ll think it’s crazy! 7 days at 1/2 gallon per hour (actually conservative) if you only run it 12 hours per day is over 40 gallons of gasoline. I keep 20 gallons on hand  and have to be very careful to rotate it through the mower so it doesn’t get too old.


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## brenndatomu (Aug 31, 2020)

Highbeam said:


> I keep 20 gallons on hand and have to be very careful to rotate it through the mower so it doesn’t get too old.


Yup, that gets old, quick!


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## begreen (Aug 31, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> Yup, that gets old, quick!


And why I have switched to propane. It doesn't go stale, burns a lot cleaner and is easier to manage.


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## ABMax24 (Aug 31, 2020)

I think if it were me I'd go a little different route. I'd get 2 3100 watt or 3400 watt inverter champion generators and the parallel kit for them. At light load you can run just 1 on eco mode saving a bunch of fuel, and if load demands you can fire up the second to get over 6500 watts. They can even be bought with remote start and dual propane/gasoline fuel options. The bonus is you still have 2 fairly light portable generators that could be sold to someone with an RV should you want to get rid of them. And total cost for 2 generators and the parallel kit would be under $1500.

The only problem with this is they only output 120 volt power, if you need 240 this doesn't work.


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## Highbeam (Sep 1, 2020)

Every deep well submersible pump I’ve seen has been 240 or more volts. If 120 is an option that would be a big help.


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## fbelec (Sep 1, 2020)

keep in mind also that long extension cords on a heavy load is bad. more than 100 run should be it for lighter loads. the more it takes and the longer runs equal voltage drop.


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## firefighterjake (Sep 1, 2020)

whtoak said:


> Hello all,
> 
> My house is getting  closer to being finished and I am looking hard at generators. I am currently looking at a Yamaha 7200. Does anyone have any experience with Yamaha generators. It is in a good price range for me compared to the Honda.
> 
> ...



After much research this is the exact make and model I ended up purchasing for my house as it not an unusual occurrence to have power knocked out for a few days every 1-3 years where I live.

Ended up with the battery start model so my wife could easily get it fired up and had an electrician friend wire up an outside connection.

About a month after purchasing the generator and having the electrical connection installed we lost power for three or four days . . . 

Since then I've run it one other time due to a late season snow storm. 

I run lights, TV, well pump, freezer, propane water heater, refrigerator, oil boiler and a few other odds and ends -- truthfully the only two things we do differently is not use the electric dryer and not use the microwave. As my wife said to me originally "All I want to do is be able to watch TV, check the internet and take a hot shower without sitting in the dark." 

I am an unabashed Honda lover and was sorely tempted to go with a red generator, but for the price the Yamaha generator seemed to be the better deal and many folks say Yamaha is well known for their reliability.

A bonus . . . the generator is also relatively quiet compared to some generators I have heard.

P.S. Our mechanic at work was in the market for a generator and after he thoroughly researched the various makes and models he ended up getting the same model as me . . . and then three weeks later lost power (unfortunately he had to drive 15 minutes into the City to purchase gas as he forgot to do so.)


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## firefighterjake (Sep 1, 2020)

More thoughts . . .

I've never really worried too much about the fuel supply as I have plenty of gas stations in the area (or at work) and generally lay in a supply of fuel when I hear of a potential storm which could cause a power loss . . . but the mechanic at work tells me this model does very well in terms of fuel consumption.

Final thought . . .

I suspect I may have been like you . . . went back and forth on price, features, size, etc.  As I told my co-worker when he asked what I had purchased . . . You may not need a generator or use a generator every month or even every year, but when you need one the one thing you want most of all is to know it will work and work reliably. That said, again, it's not something you will be using frequently so you don't necessarily need or want to go crazy with a huge, top of the line generator with all the bells and whistles.


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## Bad LP (Sep 1, 2020)

My 7000 Honda sips fuel but it does not like coming out of Eco Throttle into full power for the well pump so when we are using water the it gets shut off so that the genny does not stall. For regular house load Eco works just fine.

While the Honda is a bit more money than some people are willing to spend its a rock solid unit. I keep the battery on a maintainer because those little AGM batteries are not cheap.


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## peakbagger (Sep 1, 2020)

If someone has a gasoline powered generator and access to ethanol free fuel, the logical approach is run it on ethanol free. Talk to any small engine mechanic and they will tell you that 90% of their work these days is damage to the fuel systems from ethanol blended gas.  If you can not get ethanol free, learn how to drain the tank and the carburetor bowl after every use. That reduces the damage from the ethanol free gas but obviously introduces the need to fuel up the generator prior to starting.  The alternative is after a long run just do the last fill with ethanol free so that the ethanol is flushed out. Honda's state they are designed for Ethanol but the large engines usually have tank drain and bowl drain and warning about using fresh fuel and draining when in storage. Alternatively buy a spare carb when you buy the generator and keep it in the shelf for when it will need it. There is no if, if you let it sit with stale ethanol fuel the buildup will start, intially it may jusr run a bit rough and not idle very well but eventually when you need it it will stall when the load changes.


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## firefighterjake (Sep 1, 2020)

I've run a number of small engines with ethanol gas with no issues, albeit I have always used a stabilizing agent of some sort  . . . but that said . . . with the generator I try to only run ethanol -free gas (local gas station carries ethanol free gas which is a little more expensive than the ethanol gas mix, but much cheaper than the canned ethanol-free gas) and even then I drain most of the tank, run the engine dry and use fuel stabilizer. I figure it's one thing if my 15 year old lawn mower ends up with an issue and needs repair . . . lawn just keeps on growing . . . it's a whole other ball of wax if my generator dies in middle of January and I am without power for a week or two.


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## Brian26 (Sep 2, 2020)

I just went through a 5 day outage from Isaias and then a tornado went through last week and  I was was out another 3 days. I got by just fine with my 449$ Harbor Freight 2000 watt inverter. 
Was really impressed with how little fuel it used. 

Standard big frame generators run at a fixed 3600 rpms. This inverter in Eco mode will run at only 800 rpms and doesn't ramp up the engine untill the load is over 500 watts. Had no issue running my fridge, tv, led lights, chargers, etc in eco mode. I went almost 18 hours on a gallon of gas in eco mode. 

Both my neighbors went out and bought one after I told them how much fuel I went through. They were both running huge open frame units that were guzzling gas. 

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android


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## maple1 (Sep 2, 2020)

If someone wants an inverter gennie but they can't quite justify the price they're looking at - there are also open frame inverters out there that are a bit cheaper than the suitcase jobbies. I know Champion makes some. IMO they would be better anyway, should be way easier to service. Changing the oil in those closed up ones can be a task. But they are quiet. And look cute.


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## Highbeam (Sep 2, 2020)

Brian26 said:


> I just went through a 5 day outage from Isaias and then a tornado went through last week and  I was was out another 3 days. I got by just fine with my 449$ Harbor Freight 2000 watt inverter.
> Was really impressed with how little fuel it used.
> 
> Standard big frame generators run at a fixed 3600 rpms. This inverter in Eco mode will run at only 800 rpms and doesn't ramp up the engine untill the load is over 500 watts. Had no issue running my fridge, tv, led lights, chargers, etc in eco mode. I went almost 18 hours on a gallon of gas in eco mode.
> ...



Great post. 18 hours on one gallon! The reality is that most of us don't need 5000+ watts to just keep our house going. Some need those huge gensets only for a few minutes a day to power well pumps. If you live in the heat, AC is another excuse. As you show and I have also experienced, a little 2000-3000 watt generator is plenty and comes with the benefit of significantly less noise, less cost, lower fuel consumption, portability, and better quality power on the inverter units.

Also, as you show. Brand name is not really a factor. Most all are from overseas anyway and in this international economy we can just forget about where something is allegedly "assembled". Customer support is very good on the HF units, the champions, and I'm sure the honda and yamaha places.

I have had zero problems with ethanol fuel in my very wet western washington location. I think it's an overblown myth. That, or the fact that every ounce of fuel I use in the small engine fleet gets sta-bil stabilizer as soon as I buy it.


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## johneh (Sep 2, 2020)

Yes the small inverter units are nice and sip fule
I have a propane-fired whole house unit totally automatic at home
I also have a 11500-watt portable unit that I use at the hunt camp 
The reason I went so big is that it was a good price and an electric start. 
At my age, it is getting hard to pull any engine over.


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## Brian26 (Sep 2, 2020)

Costco has a great price on one with a Yamaha engine. I might pick another one up as the parallel capability on inverters is a great feature. You can essentially pair them together with a parallel kit and they will sync up with each other doubling your output.


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## brenndatomu (Sep 2, 2020)

Highbeam said:


> I have had zero problems with ethanol fuel in my very wet western washington location. I think it's an overblown myth. That, or the fact that every ounce of fuel I use in the small engine fleet gets sta-bil stabilizer as soon as I buy it.


As a former mechanic at a motorcycle/ATV/snowmobile/OPE dealership, I can vouch for how much trouble ethanol causes...it sure brought us a lot of work!
Stabilizer, or at least ethanol treatment makes a big difference...but buying e-free is still the best solution, especially for storage.


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## peakbagger (Sep 2, 2020)

A relevant article for hearth.com 









						Getting Cranked About Ethanol  | Summer 2010  | Knots and Bolts
					

As I was waiting at the shop the other day to pick up my chainsaw, I heard strong words up ahead in line: something about the government and the… This content



					northernwoodlands.org


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## brenndatomu (Sep 2, 2020)

peakbagger said:


> A relevant article for hearth.com
> 
> 
> 
> ...


One thing to point out from that article...as far as "run 'er dry vs leave the fuel in there"...a plastic tank is fine stored empty, any machine with a steel fuel tank will rust if stored empty...unless you live in the desert or something.


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## Brian26 (Sep 4, 2020)

Highbeam said:


> Great post. 18 hours on one gallon! The reality is that most of us don't need 5000+ watts to just keep our house going. Some need those huge gensets only for a few minutes a day to power well pumps. If you live in the heat, AC is another excuse. As you show and I have also experienced, a little 2000-3000 watt generator is plenty and comes with the benefit of significantly less noise, less cost, lower fuel consumption, portability, and better quality power on the inverter units.
> 
> Also, as you show. Brand name is not really a factor. Most all are from overseas anyway and in this international economy we can just forget about where something is allegedly "assembled". Customer support is very good on the HF units, the champions, and I'm sure the honda and yamaha places.
> 
> I have had zero problems with ethanol fuel in my very wet western washington location. I think it's an overblown myth. That, or the fact that every ounce of fuel I use in the small engine fleet gets sta-bil stabilizer as soon as I buy it.




Yeah. The difference in fuel consumption is huge My 2000 watt inverter is rated at .08 gph at 25% load (500 watts). A 7200 Yamaha is rated at .58 gph at 50% load.

Even just running one overnight with the fridge and some chargers plugged in would save a ton of fuel.

I watched my neighbors dump 5 gallon jugs of gas in their big generators every morning. Thats excessive considering they were probably just running their fridge and maybe some chargers overnight. Modern fridges run at extremely low wattages now. Mine only draws 100 watts running.

I had no issues  running a coffee maker, instapot/air fryer, window ac off it as well.


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## Highbeam (Sep 4, 2020)

Overnight running. We don’t do it. Once we’re done watching tv and getting into the fridge for the last time of the night I shut down the genset. The closed refrigerators stay cold overnight, even the quietest generators make noise to keep us and neighbors awake, waste fuel, and a running generator could attract thieves.

If you have a sleeping machine or need ac then that’s different.

Harbor freight makes a 3000 watt inverter too that people love. I think I would rather have two gensets that could run the rv air conditioner (redundant backup). I’ll take a look on Saturday.


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## maple1 (Sep 4, 2020)

Uh yeah we never run ours at night. Soon as the TV is off, the gennie is off.

Got a couple UPS's here too. They also help. A couple of those can run a modem and charge phones etc. for quite a while. The auto booster box things are also handy. Can't save more gas than by the gennie not running.


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## Stelcom66 (Sep 4, 2020)

Even though the power co. has been routinely cutting down trees (what do they do with all that wood?) outages around here still happen, and lately for a long duration. What is the general amount of time a refrigerator can be off without food starting to spoil? I've heard various answers. I ask because I would like to get a generator - for me 4,000-5,000 watts would probably suffice as my well pump is 1/2 hp. During the workday (which since April has been less frequent and < 8 hours) I'm not home - so I'd like to not run the generator then.

Similar the OP, I'd be running the refrigerator, well pump and occasional lights. TV just for the news. If I was building a new house, a generator and probably some solar would be in the plans.

IMO it's easier to deal with a power outage during cold weather. The wood stove keeps the house comfortable and can be used for cooking. If it's cold enough - to a point some food could be stored (securely) outside to keep from spoiling. That's what I did during that early snowstorm in October 2011. With many leaves still on the trees many came down causing power to be out over a week. I kept some food in coolers outside and drinks in the snow.


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## peakbagger (Sep 4, 2020)

If they are relatively full and a modern energy efficient model and most importantly the door is never opened you can get 6 to 8 hours.  Chest type freezers will hold longer if full.  There are special ice packs for freezers that can be put in them that will extend the duration how long it will stay cold without power.

Years ago a local farm had their barn burn down. They had a couple of chest freezers full of meat. The entire barn was down on top of the freezers and they looked scorched. A local fireman pulled the owner aside and told him to get rid of the freezers or the fire inspector would condemn them and make the farmer empty them out. The meat was still frozen so they emptied them out into someone elses freezer before the fire inspector came. When the inspector came he noted the freezers and looked into them and told the farmer he was lucky they were empty when the barn burned down as otherwise he would have to had emptied them.


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## fbelec (Sep 5, 2020)

leave them running over night around here and the thieves listen for the noise and it's gone


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## fbelec (Sep 5, 2020)

around here when the power company does trimming they just drop the wood so anybody can pick it. mostly cut in 4 foot lengths sometimes the crew will leave them log length


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## Stelcom66 (Sep 5, 2020)

I know someone who has their generator chained to something with a lock. Thieves would be a concern any time.

I'm not sure what the policy is re: cut wood from the power company around here. I'd think it would be Ok to take it, less work for them.
The transfer station in town would have lot after a storm. We had a big one a month ago. Unfortunately due to the situation we're all part time at our company. To cut costs I temporarily took the insurance off my truck.


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## maple1 (Sep 5, 2020)

On the fridge freezer thing. If the power goes out here mid day, we will quite often not do anything until the next day. Lost count how many times the power has come back on right after I just drug the gennie out and got things up and running with it. If they are kept closed, I'm ok with going a full day with the fridge and 3 or 4 with a good freezer. Haven't lost any food yet.


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## Highbeam (Sep 5, 2020)

maple1 said:


> On the fridge freezer thing. If the power goes out here mid day, we will quite often not do anything until the next day. Lost count how many times the power has come back on right after I just drug the gennie out and got things up and running with it. If they are kept closed, I'm ok with going a full day with the fridge and 3 or 4 with a good freezer. Haven't lost any food yet.



Overnight or while away at a shift of work the refers are all fine as long as the doors stay closed. Too much value for me to go much longer and risk it plus we need to get food out so usually we only let it cruise about 10 hours.

If you're only safe for 6 hours then your 1950s  fridge is due for replacement.

Modern fridges have low power compressors that are designed to run a lot. They only need 100 watts or so. This means that after you wake up it may take a long time for the fridge to recool. Just be patient.


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## Stelcom66 (Sep 5, 2020)

Yea the re-cooling time is a concern. My frig is 5 years old, so probably an efficient one. Disconnected the large freezer in the basement a couple years ago. Maybe before the next anticipated major storm it would be a good idea to plug it in and fill several containers with water.



maple1 said:


> On the fridge freezer thing. If the power goes out here mid day, we will quite often not do anything until the next day. Lost count how many times the power has come back on right after I just drug the gennie out and got things up and running with it...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Highbeam (Sep 11, 2020)

Got to sit through a wildfire induced power outage this week so have some data! My 3000 watt champion inverter genset ran from sun up to bedtime and has a pretty small 1.6 gallon fuel tank with a red ring down in the fill neck that marks full so maybe even less than 1.6. It lasted over 9 hours per tank running three refers, lights, microwave, girl hair things, TVs, computers, and my hops dehydrator. It has a 171 CC engine and idles down a bit in economy mode. 

So 1.6/9 is .18 gallons per hour for available 3000 watts, surely I was using less on average. It made it almost 10 hours and with the air space in the tank was less than 1.6 gallons so the 0.18 is conservative. 

Great French press coffee every morning.


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## peakbagger (Sep 11, 2020)

FYI, there are low freezing point blocks that will freeze at a lower temps than just water. They keep the food well below freezing for longer.


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## Corey (Sep 11, 2020)

firefighterjake said:


> More thoughts . . .
> 
> I've never really worried too much about the fuel supply as I have plenty of gas stations in the area (or at work) and generally lay in a supply of fuel when I hear of a potential storm which could cause a power loss . .



Always good to lay in a supply of fuel...it has always been one of my main concerns!  But I guess could vary a lot depending on what type of outages you expect.  (this actually reminds me I need to dump my 10 gallons of stored gas in my truck and go get some fresh fuel for storage!)

For single household or few-block wide power outages, as you say, there are always plenty of gas stations, but in an extended local, regional, or (gulp) national outage, those likely won't be able to pump fuel or tender sales, and the few that can will likely be swamped with customers.

I always thought natural gas would be great...not have to store fuel, relatively 'uninterruptible', no fuel going bad.  But I've known of several instances of storms ripping down trees - which had gas lines tangled up in their roots - leading to whole sections of towns having natural gas shut off.  Expect this might be similar for earthquake, flood, tornado, hurricane scenarios.  Even though 'your' gas lines might not be damaged, you could be out due to being on a branch where some lines are.

Propane is another option, though unless you already have a large tank, or room to get one, it's hard to store a large quantity.  The standard 'barbecue' tanks are ~4-5 gallons of gasoline equivalent.  So good for a day or so of run time, or possibly several days if you don't need continuous power.

The best solution I could come up with was to gear up for tri-fuel!  Hopefully at least one of the three will be available, at least for some period of time!


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## peakbagger (Sep 12, 2020)

To throw in another underlooked option think diesel. I realize nationwide that home heating oil is fairly rare compared to natural gas but it is quite popular in New England. Many folks do not realize that now that HHO has gone low sulfur that its effectively interchangable with diesel fuel. Therefore many folks have 275 gallons tanks of potential generator fuel in the basement. Diesel is the highest BTU content fuel so more power with less fuel. Diesels also tend to have a lot more torque to ride through load changes so they work better with well pumps. These sudden loads are called step loads and lightweight natural gas or propane generators generally have far less torque and do not respond as quickly to step loads. The military buys a lot of diesel generators and they tend to be heavy but very beefy. They are designed to be repaired and run for long hours but rarely are so they end up in the surplus market. The trade off is diesels are usually loud. The military did produce some fairly quiet inverter generators (MPE831A) but they are 120/240 volt 3KW units so may be too small for some folks. For folks who really need a long run backup generator the surplus military generators are the way to go.

Of course many off  gridders have the old low speed  Lister Diesels.  Many are decades old and so overbuilt that they will outlast the owners. The Brits stopped making them yeas ago but the Indians still make clones (listeroids). The EPA stopped allowing them to be imported but there is a firm in Canada that will sell you an air compressor based on the same parts that reportedly can be readilly be converted to diesel engine.


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## Stelcom66 (Sep 12, 2020)

When I saw "nationwide that home heating oil is fairly rare..." I was surprised to hear that. As mentioned above it's very popular here in Conn. I recall when my vacant late neighbor's house ran out of heating oil his daughter bought a few gallons of diesel fuel to put in, and fortunately labelled the container accordingly.

Interesting low rpm Lister engine. 

I have an oil furnace, it has an oil filter similar to a vehicle engine. I always wondered why I never detected any scent of the diesel fuel I'm
familiar with, as from a truck. When I was on automatic delivery, I could sense I slight odor I recognized as heating oil after a fill up, but it
wasn't at all like a Peterbuilt or Mack driving by. I believe the heating oil is dyed a certain color? Maybe that's the reason for the unique odor.

Now you've got me thinking about a generator with a small diesel engine. My concern with a typical portable generator would be continually needing to make trips to the gas station (assuming they had electricity) to fill containers. May some kind of diverter valve in the tank fuel supply? But - mine is the typical tank in the basement, the generator would be outside a ways above the tank.


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## peakbagger (Sep 12, 2020)

The easiest way is just hook a "t" into the furnace supply line and a valve and a hose to fill fuel can.


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## Highbeam (Sep 12, 2020)

Careful on the small 120/240 generators. If it’s 3000 watts as in the above example then only half, 1500 watts, is available to either side of your panel. That’s just one microwave, then you blow the breaker. There’s a reason that even the smallest generators are 2000 watts. 

Diesel generators are rare. They’re heavy, expensive, hard to start in cold, loud, and diesel fuel can get some nasty fungus when stored. The availability of right sized diesel gensets that are quiet enough to be acceptable is nearly zero. There is just no market since the gas generators are so good. There are some rv type gensets that are diesel but loud.  There are big utility sized gensets that are diesel and quiet. 

I might look into a military generator for the cool factor. I wish they were about twice as powerful to be used for well pumps.


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## Stelcom66 (Sep 12, 2020)

peakbagger said:


> The easiest way is just hook a "t" into the furnace supply line and a valve and a hose to fill fuel can.



True. That would save a trip and be convenient, and it's already there and no electricity required to disperse it to a fuel can.  I guess I'm thinking about the luxury of actually running a diesel engine/generator directly from the line. Like you said, there's many gallons of available fuel, and during a power outage it's not being used. My neighbor down the street had the advantage of bordering the main state road where there's a propane or some kind gas supply. The had a generator installed that runs off that. Whenever I drive into our street I can see the green pilot light on. Once a week it turns on automatically (as it would during  power failure) to do  a test.

Even though they're a few houses across and down the street, usually when most of the street has been out they have not been, as their house's electricity is fed from poles on the main state road.


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## brenndatomu (Sep 12, 2020)

Stelcom66 said:


> My concern with a typical portable generator would be continually needing to make trips to the gas station (assuming they had electricity) to fill containers. May some kind of diverter valve in the tank fuel supply? But - mine is the typical tank in the basement, the generator would be outside a ways above the tank.


These universal low pressure fuel pumps work pretty well as a transfer pump...or even a lift pump if you have a permanently installed diesel genny


			https://www.autozone.com/fuel-systems/universal-fuel-pump


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## Stelcom66 (Sep 12, 2020)

Trouble is there would be no electricity to run the pump. Discussed this with some friends/family - sounds like a diesel powered generator would be very expensive. If I was off grid it seems like a good way to go.


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## brenndatomu (Sep 12, 2020)

12 volt...battery power


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## Stelcom66 (Sep 12, 2020)

Yes saw several fuel pumps on the link were 12v. Another reason why I'd still like to have a small solar setup for things like that, charge phones and other devices and run a 12v fan in the summer. Hard to imagine having no fans this past (hottest on record here) summer during a power outage.


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## semipro (Sep 12, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> As a former mechanic at a motorcycle/ATV/snowmobile/OPE dealership, I can vouch for how much trouble ethanol causes...it sure brought us a lot of work!
> Stabilizer, or at least ethanol treatment makes a big difference...but buying e-free is still the best solution, especially for storage.


Also a former large and small engine mechanic - I suspect the water absorbing nature of ethanol is what causes most problems as the water corrodes tank and carb hard components.  I think most soft components (gaskets, needle tips, diaphragms, etc. ) are now made to be ethanol resistant. 
Either gas is stored in vented containers which allows moisture in or water enters through the gas tank vent on the equipment.  The former is bad practice anyway since it allows the lighter gasoline components (of low molecular weight) to evaporate, which can result in hard starting in cold weather.  Some can't be convinced that those EPA-complaint cans shouldn't be vented though. 
Proper fuel storage as well as additives or ethanol-free gas as already mentioned are the way to go.


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## firefighterjake (Sep 14, 2020)

Corey said:


> Always good to lay in a supply of fuel...it has always been one of my main concerns!  But I guess could vary a lot depending on what type of outages you expect.  (this actually reminds me I need to dump my 10 gallons of stored gas in my truck and go get some fresh fuel for storage!)
> 
> For single household or few-block wide power outages, as you say, there are always plenty of gas stations, but in an extended local, regional, or (gulp) national outage, those likely won't be able to pump fuel or tender sales, and the few that can will likely be swamped with customers.
> 
> ...



Hehheh . . . you're a belt AND suspenders sort of guy! You sound a bit like our County EMA Director who is always telling us town directors about how he has one generator that uses gas and another which uses propane .  . . he also has stores of food and water and walks the talk when it comes to emergency preparedness.


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## firefighterjake (Sep 14, 2020)

Not sure if it was mentioned or not but the USDA and many safe food experts say you can safely eat food in a fridge without power up to 4 hours . . . longer if one then places ice blocks in the fridge to keep the internal temp below (I think) 40 degrees. Freezers can safely store food 1-2 days depending on how full the freezer is . . .


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## Fat wood (Sep 18, 2020)

peakbagger said:


> If someone has a gasoline powered generator and access to ethanol free fuel, the logical approach is run it on ethanol free. Talk to any small engine mechanic and they will tell you that 90% of their work these days is damage to the fuel systems from ethanol blended gas.  If you can not get ethanol free, learn how to drain the tank and the carburetor bowl after every use. That reduces the damage from the ethanol free gas but obviously introduces the need to fuel up the generator prior to starting.  The alternative is after a long run just do the last fill with ethanol free so that the ethanol is flushed out. Honda's state they are designed for Ethanol but the large engines usually have tank drain and bowl drain and warning about using fresh fuel and draining when in storage. Alternatively buy a spare carb when you buy the generator and keep it in the shelf for when it will need it. There is no if, if you let it sit with stale ethanol fuel the buildup will start, intially it may jusr run a bit rough and not idle very well but eventually when you need it it will stall when the load changes.


So true, thats all you should use is ethanol free if available.  When i fill my can i put a few ounces of sta-bil in it as well.  I run it every few weeks to be safe.


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## velvetfoot (Sep 21, 2020)

I like my HF 3000 watt inverter genny.  We also have a Honda 2000i, but there was a sale on the HF, and the 1000 more watts makes a difference.

When we first moved into our new house, I was shocked (so to speak) that our 5kw genny wouldn't start the well pump.  Wells were a new thing to us.  We had to buy a 7500 Generac, and it still bogs down when the well pump starts.

Our approach is:  if the outage is not widespread, we'll wait a few hours to see if the power comes back.  Maybe light some oil lamps.  Next phase is the HF genny for 120 volt loads.  If the outage lasts a couple days, we'll break out the Generac, especially if we didn't think about putting water in the tubs.  We'll run the Generac for the well pump and any other 240 volt needs, but mostly just the well pump.

If you're going the portable genny route, I think connecting it to the panel with a disconnect switch and an inlet plug is the way to go.  It allows you to select any circuit you want to to power.

I will say that a standby generator setup would be nice, though, I imagine, you could still have fuel consumption concerns, even with a big propane tank.


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## maple1 (Sep 22, 2020)

velvetfoot said:


> I like my HF 3000 watt inverter genny.  We also have a Honda 2000i, but there was a sale on the HF, and the 1000 more watts makes a difference.
> 
> When we first moved into our new house, I was shocked (so to speak) that our 5kw genny wouldn't start the well pump.  Wells were a new thing to us.  We had to buy a 7500 Generac, and it still bogs down when the well pump starts.
> 
> ...



Exactly our approach as well. Except we don't need the big gennie for our 120v well pump - just need to unplug mostly everything else from our 3000w inverter (freezer & fridge) for long enough to cycle the pump. I would do the 2-gennie setup if we had a bigger well pump - using as little fuel as possible is priority 1 here. Even if it means futzing around with a couple extension cords for a couple of days.

Teddy is now bearing down on us, expected to hit full steam later this afternoon. An eery quiet before the storm at the moment, but expect the gennie will get drug out the next couple of days. I hate hurricanes.


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