# How to tie in pellet boiler into existing oil boiler



## Vtpenguin (Feb 28, 2014)

Hi from frost cold VT.  I've decided to go for a pellet boiler, but am sort of lost on how I can install this myself.  Was quoted 10k to 15k for a pellergy, kedel or similar installed.  Am looking at doing a Harmon stove with conversion kit, or if less expensive, a LMF Americas heat, if I can find one. What I'd like to do is connect it in series to My Weil McLean, to use its plumbing valves pumps, etc. I just don't see how I do that, or what I need to buy in addition to the boiler itself. 





I guess what I need is a pellet boiler integration/installation for dummies.  Any help and guidance would be appreciated.


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## webbie (Feb 28, 2014)

My suggestion would be to download some owners manuals which may be available online for any biomass boiler - 
http://www.woodboilers.com/products/discontinued-boilers.html

The multi-heat is a pellet unit, but the wood models should also give you some ideas.....

Also, some of the stickies in the boiler room may apply - with or without storage. But I think the manuals will give you the best idea.

Harman stove with conversion kit? If that is not a real pellet boiler you'll probably be sorry. In cold VT you are going to need all the heat you can get! Trying to save money is one thing, but you might end up spending in extra pellets, frustration and backup fuel...more than you save.

You need to have a boiler with as much water as possible in it and also as many square feet of surface area (interior) with water behind it.


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## velvetfoot (Feb 28, 2014)

Even though I'm now leaning towards a wood boiler, here is a thread I started on the Harman Hydroflex.  I think there's a wealth of info there:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/harmon-hydroflex-60-pellet-boiler.81612/


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## __dan (Feb 28, 2014)

I would start with the assumptions that oil will never be coming down in price, wood pellets will be relatively stable long term in price as the industry matures, and utility gas is not going to be available in your area. Utility gas is always the first thing I would check for and the best fuel choice when available now or in the future.

Given those assumptions I would be looking at taking out the oil boiler completely and going with one of the high quality European pellet boilers that can perform as a long term reliable and efficient central heat source for the house, Froling, Windhager ... Something that runs easily unattended for long periods, auto cleaning and auto start stop.

I would look at it as a long term capital investment that will eventually pay for itself compared to the cost of burning oil. If you're burning $2000 anually in oil, over ten years that's $20,000 and the best quality pellet boiler will look cheap by comparason.

I would not at all consider what you indicated in your first post. I like to build for the long term and feel satisfied that my work is actually a money saver over the life of the equipment.


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## DBNH22 (Feb 28, 2014)

I'd echo what the previous posters have said, that a pellet stove w/ conversion kit is not a good idea.  These days we're all trying to save money but sometimes our efforts to save actually end up costing us more in the long run.  Are you handy/mechanical at all?  know anything about plumbing?

When I had my boiler put in I hired a plumber.  There are probably a lot of people capable of doing the install themselves but I knew I wasn't so I didn't even consider it.  Whatever you decide to get your should do your homework to find out exactly what's going to be involved in installing the new heating appliance properly so that everything works as efficiently and safely as possible.

That being said, how large is the home you're trying to heat?  velvetfoot mentioned the Harman Hydroflex 60.  I've never used one but I did view one in operation when i was in the process of shopping for a pellet boiler and let's just say that the word I would use to describe it is "underwhelming."  If I'm correct it is one of the cheapest if not cheapest pellet boiler on the market.  It's also one of the lowest rated for BTU output and smallest physical units.  once I started loking at other models I did not even consider the HF60.


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## velvetfoot (Feb 28, 2014)

I didn't think the original poster had a large budget.  There are rebates in Vt. though, no?


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## iceguy4 (Feb 28, 2014)

> What I'd like to do is connect it in series to My Weil McLean, to use its plumbing valves pumps, etc.


   An excellent idea.



__dan said:


> Given those assumptions I would be looking at taking out the oil boiler completely and going with one of the high quality European pellet boilers that can perform as a long term reliable and efficient central heat source for the house, Froling, Windhager ... Something that runs easily unattended for long periods, auto cleaning and auto start stop.


     PLease don't get mad...this is a bad idea...Taking out the oil boiler that is... Boiler choices I'll leave alone.



Vtpenguin said:


> I guess what I need is a pellet boiler integration/installation for dummies.  Any help and guidance would be appreciated



 If your close to Albany NY I may be interested in doing the job for you.  (at least 2 members of this forum have used me)
  Oh that circulator to your HW heater needs to go.  Its costing you $$$ with the price of oil...


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## __dan (Feb 28, 2014)

iceguy4 said:


> PLease don't get mad...this is a bad idea...Taking out the oil boiler that is... Boiler choices I'll leave alone.
> 
> Oh that circulator to your HW heater needs to go.  Its costing you $$$ with the price of oil...



I am not concerned with getting mad. I am very happy to learn new things, study all the time, and very happy to admit when I am wrong and improve. Otherwise, I do realize I can be a difficult person at times

In that spirit, perhaps you could say why you would think of keeping the oil boiler (convenience, redundancy?). There is a cost in footprint, annual maintenance, fuel, added complexity, that could be reduced by going with one pellet boiler designed and built by the factory as a standalone reliable central heat source. I would not consider installing a boiler that I thought needed a backup unit or was prone to failures, repairs, needed excessive owner atendance.

I was going to add that the electric DHW could go in favor of an indirect tank.


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## iceguy4 (Feb 28, 2014)

__dan said:


> In that spirit, perhaps you could say why you would think of keeping the oil boiler (convenience, redundancy?).


 my answer...yes and yes... I guess the only thing I would add is reliability.   Make no mistake about it, an oil boiler has way more reliability(perhaps way could be removed)  then a pellet burner.      As far as I know there is no pellet burner that can go the whole season un-attended ..  I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.   on the other hand, almost any oil burner will go without ANY intervention.     Also "redundancy " is almost never a bad thing


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## maple1 (Feb 28, 2014)

Looks like you have an electric DHW heater, but it is also being heated by the oil boiler?

Assuming you have decided for sure on pellets - I would get rid of the oil all together, put in a Windhager (or similar quality), tie it to your existing hot water heater the way it is now if you want to (although using electric alone shouldn't be that bad $$ wise), and if you are nervous about a lack of a second heat source as some seem to be - put in a small electric boiler for backup, since they are cheap & easy (but not all that cheap to run if you use it much - hence as backup) and take up next to no room.

You will get rid of all the oil liabilities & ongoing maintenance etc. etc., you can use your existing chimney for the new boiler, and if your existing electric DHW heater ever cabbages out you can replace it with a HPWH.

Trust me, it feels some good getting rid of the oil tank once you actually do it.


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## iceguy4 (Feb 28, 2014)

maple1 said:


> Looks like you have an electric DHW heater, but it is also being heated by the oil boiler?
> 
> Assuming you have decided for sure on pellets - I would get rid of the oil all together, put in a Windhager (or similar quality), tie it to your existing hot water heater the way it is now if you want to (although using electric alone shouldn't be that bad $$ wise), and if you are nervous about a lack of a second heat source as some seem to be - put in a small electric boiler for backup, since they are cheap & easy (but not all that cheap to run if you use it much - hence as backup) and take up next to no room.
> 
> ...




   Short of having an outside tank , an oil tank is "down there" on MY concern list.   And for me , one of the better feelings I got was when I added an extra tank...At this point I have 2  tanks side by side....both 1/2 full.    Removing a completely reliable  oil boiler to spend more money on an electric boiler makes no sense.   and as for maintenance on your oil boiler ....this is mostly generated by gallons burned.   Yearly cleanings will be minimalized if its not used ( I service my own oil burner ...I have ALL the proper equipment...and expertise)   The only reason I would choose your option was if room was a concern


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## maple1 (Feb 28, 2014)

It's very much up there on insurance companies concern lists. At least up here. My perfectly good 18 year old tank was due to be replaced before it reached 20 - or else I would lose my coverage.

My parents had to replace theirs this past summer - and it was only 7 years old.

Electric boilers are cheap - and factoring in no more oil bills made perfect sense to me.

As always - to each their own.


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## iceguy4 (Feb 28, 2014)

I guess what I need is a pellet boiler integration/installation for dummies.  Any help and guidance would be appreciated.[/quote]


The more I look at your picture the more I see(plumbing wise) that "makes my teeth hurt"   The only thing I like is the chair....you'll be needing that when you become a basement dweller


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## DBNH22 (Feb 28, 2014)

iceguy4 said:


> I guess what I need is a pellet boiler integration/installation for dummies.  Any help and guidance would be appreciated.




The more I look at your picture the more I see(plumbing wise) that "makes my teeth hurt"   The only thing I like is the chair....you'll be needing that when you become a basement dweller[/quote]


Well the chair, a jar of peanut butter and about six to eight of the snap style mousetraps.


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## iceguy4 (Feb 28, 2014)

Dana B said:


> Well the chair, a jar of peanut butter and about six to eight of the snap style mousetraps.



old school...I use the electric traps....something about seeing their eyes pop out that makes me feel like I cant wash my hands enough....and I too cheap to throw the whole trap and mouse out together...


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## __dan (Feb 28, 2014)

Pellet boiler choice would drive the decision of if the backup boiler, oil or other, was necessary or advised. The Froling or Windhager are factory designed and built to run reliably standalone with the owner expected to do the minimum, ash cleaning, fuel feeding, and monitoring of the unit for proper operation and maintenance as needed.

My brother in law has an unattended second house on a huge oil bill. Since it is unattended most of the year, I cannot recommend a pellet boiler, which is exactly what I would want for him if he lived there, could take the ash out occasionally, and monitor the operation of an otherwise very reliable unit (Froling Windhager). No oil backup, why maintain two boilers.

I would not ever consider one of the alternate pellet boiler models available that had such deficiencies that a backup oil boiler was seen as necessary or advised. I hate wasting money or having to do a job twice. Spend the money for quality and save money over the lfe of the install.


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## DBNH22 (Feb 28, 2014)

__dan said:


> Pellet boiler choice would drive the decision of if the backup boiler, oil or other, was necessary or advised. The Froling or Windhager are factory designed and built to run reliably standalone with the owner expected to do the minimum, ash cleaning, fuel feeding, and monitoring of the unit for proper operation and maintenance as needed.
> 
> My brother in law has an unattended second house on a huge oil bill. Since it is unattended most of the year, I cannot recommend a pellet boiler, which is exactly what I would want for him if he lived there, could take the ash out occasionally, and monitor the operation of an otherwise very reliable unit (Froling Windhager). No oil backup, why maintain two boilers.
> 
> *I would not ever consider one of the alternate pellet boiler models available that had such deficiencies that a backup oil boiler was seen as necessary or advised. I hate wasting money or having to do a job twice. Spend the money for quality and save money over the lfe of the install.*




At the risk of getting someone's panties in a bunch I'm curious what other brands/models you had in mind regarding deficiencies and what your're basing this comment on.


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## __dan (Feb 28, 2014)

Without mentioning the model, there is a pellet boiler repeatedly mentioned in the threads here, usually by new owners looking for help with trouble.

The commonly mentioned problems are creosote buildup, frequent cleaning required, and the problem they have but don't know they have, the boiler is always on and maintaining the boiler at the setpoint. Boiler on/off is a manual change to the thermostat so the boiler does not come on and off for demand, it fires to maintain the boiler aquastat even with no demand, which is death due to short cycling and loss of efficiency. They are also reported to smoke.

That boiler model, I could see having an oil backup as necessary. I would advise against that scenario.


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## Vtpenguin (Feb 28, 2014)

Thank you all so much.  The best quote I got was 9k for a Kedel, installed, replacing the oil completely.  I was unable to secure the loan for it, dealing with a lot of in expected "debts" and such.  No equity to borrow against.  I can spend 4k, maybe 5k tops.  Hence trying to do this on my own.  

There is up to a 1k rebate available currently in vt. But you submit it after. I believe.  

Iceguy4 I'm 4 hours from Albany NY.  

So- what is bad about the current set up? The circ on the dhwh? Is it not needed?  I always thought it looked like a hack job.  


I'd be happy to say goodbye to the oil altogether-I in fact really need it gone. But, $$.  So short term-

what I envision doing after this feedback is Installing the pellet boiler, not a conversion kit, you talked me out of it, along side the oil boiler, and having it done by someone qualified, but me maybe doing some of the grunt work.  

Lo to think about.  Any recommendations that might work with my budget?


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## Oilman (Feb 28, 2014)

You have a coil booster tank, not an electric water heater. The wire you see is a 14/2 wire going thru the lower thermostat to turn the bronze pump on and off. This should save you money as you can run a lower low limit setting.
I would also recommend keeping a backup source,in your case the oil boiler.I have been heavily involved in the coal and wood heating business since the 80's and pretty much 100% of the people who said they didn't need a back-up-well, they had one 5 to 10 years later.Life can throw you curveballs you never expect-many which can curtail your ability to run a labor intensive solid fuel unit.(I love solid fuel burning,but my experience in the field also makes me a realist.I was the guy who got called to add the oil unit or remove the wood/coal unit and replace with oil)
Anyway, that's my opinion.
Unfortunately, I'm not sure if your budget is large enough for a decent installation, I'm sorry to say. I can spend almost as much for material on a wholesale level (not including boiler) for a complex solid fuel boiler install as you have alotted for the whole job.
I feel bad, I hope I haven't burst your bubble.


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## maple1 (Mar 1, 2014)

If you leave the oil boiler there - have you got your pellet boiler venting figured out?


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## DZL_Damon (Mar 1, 2014)

Vtpenguin said:


> Thank you all so much.  The best quote I got was 9k for a Kedel, installed, replacing the oil completely.


 
Bummer you are not in the position right now for that, you'd be very happy with it. I understand if you can't get it, you can't get it.

Why not a good pellet stove as an alternative if capital is tight? A $3,000 pellet stove is a real nice piece of equipment, where as the same manufacturers $5500 pellet boiler doesn't seem to be as much. A stove would probably take care of 75%+ of your heating demand.


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## DBNH22 (Mar 3, 2014)

__dan said:


> Without mentioning the model, there is a pellet boiler repeatedly mentioned in the threads here, usually by new owners looking for help with trouble.
> 
> The commonly mentioned problems are creosote buildup, frequent cleaning required, and the problem they have but don't know they have, the boiler is always on and maintaining the boiler at the setpoint. Boiler on/off is a manual change to the thermostat so the boiler does not come on and off for demand, it fires to maintain the boiler aquastat even with no demand, which is death due to short cycling and loss of efficiency. They are also reported to smoke.
> 
> That boiler model, I could see having an oil backup as necessary. I would advise against that scenario.




I understand the need to tiptoe around because some people on this site may be overly sensitive when discussing a product that they may own.  However I wish it weren't like that.  I would never take a critique of my boiler personally.  There is great value in honest and objective discussion of both the negative and positive aspects of the different products out there.  Anyhoo, my first season with the Biowin has been a positive experience so far as winter is winding down.  I will probably do some type of post at the end of the season, most likely in late April.


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## Vtpenguin (Mar 3, 2014)

I already have a wood stove, and go though 3 cords of wood a year, and 1000 gallons of oil. What is the least expensive pellet boiler available?  I'm going to have to purchase it, and then install it myself I guess.   Maybe find someone to help me that is familiar.  Can any one recommend where I might purchase one?


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## DBNH22 (Mar 3, 2014)

Vtpenguin said:


> I already have a wood stove, and go though 3 cords of wood a year, and 1000 gallons of oil. What is the least expensive pellet boiler available?  I'm going to have to purchase it, and then install it myself I guess.   Maybe find someone to help me that is familiar.  Can any one recommend where I might purchase one?




If you buy a boiler for no other reason than the fact that it's "the least expensive,"  you may deeply regret it.   100 gallons of oil plus three cords of wood sounds like an aweful lot of fuel.  How large of a home are you heating and how well insulated/air sealed is it?


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## Vtpenguin (Mar 3, 2014)

Its about 1800 sq ft. All one floor, not counting the expansive cavernous basement I have.  Yeah, it's probably not the best insulated.  I'll be doing some work on that, but I have these high ceilings, and there is now way to add insulation to them that I am aware of. They are vaulted. 

What about a wood boiler in My garage? Are they cheaper?


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## Mr._Graybeard (Mar 5, 2014)

Dana B said:


> I understand the need to tiptoe around because some people on this site may be overly sensitive when discussing a product that they may own.  However I wish it weren't like that.  I would never take a critique of my boiler personally.  There is great value in honest and objective discussion of both the negative and positive aspects of the different products out there.  Anyhoo, my first season with the Biowin has been a positive experience so far as winter is winding down.  I will probably do some type of post at the end of the season, most likely in late April.



You Windhager guys are amusing. So name the boiler that cannot be named because it would offend people.

From my perspective, if I didn't have a backup boiler for my Harman, my homeowners insurance agent would take me off his Christmas card list.


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## DBNH22 (Mar 5, 2014)

Mr._Graybeard said:


> You Windhager guys are amusing. So name the boiler that cannot be named because it would offend people.
> 
> From my perspective, if I didn't have a backup boiler for my Harman, my homeowners insurance agent would take me off his Christmas card list.




Glad you're amused.  Maybe it's not that common but I have seen a few posts on here in the past where people got a little touchy when their equipment was being criticized.  Other times I have seen people go out of their way to say things like "well you know there is a boiler brand that isn't that great but I'm not going to say which brand it is, just read the  other threads."   That's all I was alluding to and my point was that we should all be open to constructive criticism on this site.  After all a big part of being here is learning from one another right?

That being said, my personal experience with the pellet boilers is based solely on having viewed several of them last year prior to purchasing the Windhager which I have been happy with this season.  I wanted to view a Kedel and see a demo but never got a call back from Jacob at Interphase after having an initial phone conversation with him.  The Frohlings and Okofens are out of my price range so I did not bother visiting the dealers on these ones.

I actually did view the Harman PB105 and the Hydroflex60 as well as the Windhager Biowin in person.  I saw all of them in action.  From viewing them alone it seemed to me as if the Windhager was a higher quality product for very little additional cost.  The Windhager dealer just seemed more knowledgeable than the Harman dealer.    I also read a lot of the posts on here in which people were saying that they had to replace the burnpot on the PB105 several times and that Harman had not resolved the issue.  In addition to that I spoke with several people on here who had experience with the Windhager and had good things to say about it.  All of this led me to choose the Windhager.  That is my personal experience and view of things but of course I'm happy for anyone that may have bought any other brand of pellet boiler and had a good experience with it.

As for the insurance company requiring a backup.  I called my insurance company to let them know that I'd be installing a pellet boiler and using it as my primary heating appliance.  They said that was fine and that it would not negate my homeowner's policy or in any way adversely affect it.  They were more than happy to oblige when I asked them to send me a letter stating as much.  I left the oil boiler in place but they never even asked about it or having a backup for the pellet boiler.


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## __dan (Mar 5, 2014)

To me, oil heat is obsolete and there is no one who should be installing oil. The alternatives are so much better, pellets or building a low heat, self heating house, new from the ground up.

In a pellet boiler, there are a few must have features. It must have a modulating firing rate or turndown, in the range of 3 to 1. It's a lot more efficient and better for the boiler to stay on at a lower fire rate that matches the load instead of on/off control on an aquastat. It must have automatic (electronic) draft control, variable speed draft fan, and automatic motorized supply air dampers. It must be built to go the distance, expected lifetime with minimal repairs should be over 20 years. It must or should run unattended for long periods and be relatively forgiving of poor maintenance by the owners, which will happen. Some type of effective self cleaning and robust safety features, safe by design and safe with the safety controls..

Low cost is an illusion. High quality materials are a labor saver on the short run and a money saver in the long run. Personally, I would be livid and inconsolable if I spent the kind of money necessary and found out after the fact that I had to respend to get something that actually does the job. I save the money to do it right. It was reading the board here, the complaints and problems others were experiencing, that sold me on the Froling.

I have oil backup but have not burned a drop for the second year. I only have oil because it's necessary for the cordwood boiler, not because I want it.


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## DBNH22 (Mar 5, 2014)

__dan said:


> To me, oil heat is obsolete and there is no one who should be installing oil. The alternatives are so much better, pellets or building a low heat, self heating house, new from the ground up.
> 
> In a pellet boiler, there are a few must have features. It must have a modulating firing rate or turndown, in the range of 3 to 1. It's a lot more efficient and better for the boiler to stay on at a lower fire rate that matches the load instead of on/off control on an aquastat. It must have automatic (electronic) draft control, variable speed draft fan, and automatic motorized supply air dampers. It must be built to go the distance, expected lifetime with minimal repairs should be over 20 years. It must or should run unattended for long periods and be relatively forgiving of poor maintenance by the owners, which will happen. Some type of effective self cleaning and robust safety features, safe by design and safe with the safety controls..
> 
> ...




Dan, I'm just curious if you use the Frohling for DHW in months when you're not heating.


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## __dan (Mar 5, 2014)

Dana B said:


> Dan, I'm just curious if you use the Frohling for DHW in months when you're not heating.



Yes. With the slabs off I can cold start and make 80 gallons of DHW with the 2 gallon pail of twigs and branches in the picture.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/twigs-for-dhw.108749/


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## chken (Mar 5, 2014)

Vtpenguin said:


> Hi from frost cold VT.  I've decided to go for a pellet boiler, but am sort of lost on how I can install this myself.  Was quoted 10k to 15k for a pellergy, kedel or similar installed.  Am looking at doing a Harmon stove with conversion kit, or if less expensive, a LMF Americas heat, if I can find one. What I'd like to do is connect it in series to My Weil McLean, to use its plumbing valves pumps, etc. I just don't see how I do that, or what I need to buy in addition to the boiler itself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would recommend looking at a pellet stove, getting familiar with it, and then making a decision based upon some user experience. A boiler is a big expense, no one wants to make a mistake.

Also, if you want to learn about how a system is piped, and if you were looking at the Harmans, just download their manuals, I'm sure they show basic serial and parallel plumbed setups.


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## DBNH22 (Mar 6, 2014)

I second what chken just said.  "No one wants to make a mistake."  Now that winter is winding down there's no need to rush out and buy something new on an impulse.   You should take at least two or three months to research any and every product that you might be interested in,  see demos on all of them, do internet research, talk to people who already own them, talk to plumbing heating guys, look into state/federal rebates and financial assistance etc etc etc

You'll enjoy being in your nice warm home next year with whatever solution you choose providing that warmth knowing that you have no regrets about the decisions you've made.


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## iceguy4 (Mar 9, 2014)

__dan said:


> To me, oil heat is obsolete and there is no one who should be installing oil. The alternatives are so much better, pellets or building a low heat, self heating house, new from the ground up.


   Well  this is a brazen statement.   Pellet equipment is NOT in anyway as reliable as oil .  Problems can be as simple as pellet selection...Things can happen with "fuel" delivery in pellet systems that oil systems don't have to deal with.     I would NEVER set up a house (in an area subject to cold enough weather to freeze pipes)  with a "stand alone" pellet burner..  Just saying


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## __dan (Mar 9, 2014)

iceguy4 said:


> Well  this is a brazen statement.   Pellet equipment is NOT in anyway as reliable as oil .  Problems can be as simple as pellet selection...Things can happen with "fuel" delivery in pellet systems that oil systems don't have to deal with.     I would NEVER set up a house (in an area subject to cold enough weather to freeze pipes)  with a "stand alone" pellet burner..  Just saying



I would probably not advise an owner to install a pellet boiler if they also did not want to do the maintenance. Having a contractor come in to clean the ash out would probably negate the fuel savings. Those people may as well live in an apt or condo. I routinely advise insulation and siding upgrades or building new with super efficiency methods and materials.

I would never advise a pellet boiler install that required routine maintenance that was any more than ash removal and light brushing. I would never recommend an appliance that had a creosote buildup problem.

I am recommending standalone pellet boilers for everyone who does not gave gas available as the alternate to oil hydronic. That and building new with super insulation. I would only recommend one of the European pellet boilers. It would have to be comparable to the Froling. I would not consider and advise against the PB 105 in all situations. The boiler needs to have a modulating firing rate, burn clean, and self clean. I will be very happy for the customers when Harmon runs a suitable competitor in the market.


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## timss13 (Apr 7, 2014)

Can you run a pellet boiler when you have steam radiators?


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## DZL_Damon (Apr 7, 2014)

timss13 said:


> Can you run a pellet boiler when you have steam radiators?


 
Not if your running steam through them... but perhaps someone has made a boiler/burner that is capable of making steam. I know they CAN make steam, it's just the controls aspect behind it.

If you are running water through them, then it will run VERY well. Extra thermal mass is good for a modulating system.


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