# E-Classic vs Heatmor Responce 200ssr



## corvett1 (Jul 23, 2009)

Does anyone know the differance between the two boilers, good or bad comments. I've read here some people are having problems with the e-classic any problems with the responce 200ssr. I know the indoor boilers are the prefered way to go on this forum, but I have no chimney on my house and the location in my basement I would have to locate the boiler would mean I would have to put a two story stove pipe on the outside of my house which I don't want to do.


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## SolarAndWood (Jul 23, 2009)

I think that someone here has installed just about every boiler made in an outbuilding.  If you are willing to build one, you don't need to limit your options.  If I were doing it, I would combine it with the woodshed.


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## stee6043 (Jul 23, 2009)

Based on users on this site it sure seems like the E-Classic was a big let-down initially.  For the money they seemed to have a lot of issues with the refractories breaking, warping steel in the firebox and some other issues (requiring a paper-clip to run right???).  I think eventually the E-Classic is going to be a great unit and a great replacement for the typical OWB but right now it's just too early in the product life span.

As Solar said I'd seriously consider building a low-end shed and perhaps looking at EKO's, Tarms, Econoburn, etc....


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## Hydronics (Jul 24, 2009)

I agree, Even if you only put a roof over an indoor gasifier, you'll probably have less heat loss than an OWB and for the same money. In reality, for any outdoor boiler you want all the wood under a roof so you can access it without getting it or yourself wet.
Good luck.


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## SolarAndWood (Jul 24, 2009)

Hydro, do you have pictures of your splitter posted somewhere?


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## Hydronics (Jul 24, 2009)

I don't have any pictures. It works great though, with the machine @ idle it will rip through anything.
I don't want to get off topic & hijack this thread. PM me if you need more info.


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## heaterman (Jul 24, 2009)

corvett1 said:
			
		

> Does anyone know the differance between the two boilers, good or bad comments. I've read here some people are having problems with the e-classic any problems with the responce 200ssr. I know the indoor boilers are the prefered way to go on this forum, but I have no chimney on my house and the location in my basement I would have to locate the boiler would mean I would have to put a two story stove pipe on the outside of my house which I don't want to do.



I wouldn't recommend either one right now. There's a lot of shaking out to do yet from what I can see in both of those products. Speaking from personal experience with a couple owners of E-Classics, they don't perform anywhere close to what is claimed under field conditions.  There is a lot of new stuff coming on the market and unless it is tried and true technology that's been in use for a while (read something from Europe) I would wait, Econoburn being the exception in US made equipment. 

Take the $$ you would spend on a wood burner and invest in insulation and windows for your house .....unless of course they are already in good shape. That will almost always provide the fastest ROI. Tax credits available for that too. 

All of the above advice can be disregarded if you simply want to thumb your nose at the fuel company.


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## altheating (Jul 25, 2009)

Having used an Econoburn for the past 3 plus years in a wood shed that previously housed an aqua-therm. First off, my wood consumption went from 30 plus cords with the aqua-therm to about 6 cord with the Econoburn. I would highly recommend putting a gassifier into a woodshed vs an outdoor furnace setting in the open. The cost of a small woodshed would put you in the same price range as an OWB. The closed system boiler will last much longer than a non-pressurized system and when the rain is running down your neck, you get done pissing and moaning about digging wet, snow and ice covered wood out of the wood pile, you'll wish you had put the boiler in the wood shed! You may even get the little women to load the indoor unit a few times a year if its inside. Of course, I am a bit partial to the Econoburn line. The problem I see is all these new OWB gassers have not been tested in the field, and those that have been used for one heating season seem to have issues, some of them major issues. Many of these OWB companies had to get "something" into the marketplace just to stay afloat. Buy the looks of the end product, not much thought went into the designs of these units. Take for instance the E-classics, what knuckle head thought you could put 500,000 btu's per hour through a tin box (reaction chamber). I bet this knuckle head has some type of engenearing degree.


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## fabguy01 (Jul 25, 2009)

altheating said:
			
		

> I bet this knuckle head has some type of engenearing degree.


 HaHa thats funny :coolsmile:


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## Gooserider (Jul 25, 2009)

Hydronics said:
			
		

> I don't have any pictures. It works great though, with the machine @ idle it will rip through anything.
> I don't want to get off topic & hijack this thread. PM me if you need more info.



As a mod, what I would suggest is that you start a separate thread about the splitter in the "gear" area rather than doing PM's...  I suspect that many of us would be interested in seeing (We LUVS PIKTURS :coolgrin: ) or hearing more about it...  I know that I prefer to answer things in the forums rather than PM's unless it really IS "Personal" so that others can get whatever educational / entertainment value there is in the exchange... 

Gooserider


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## corvett1 (Jul 28, 2009)

I've read a few post here about installing a indoor boiler and it seems like the installation cost is just as much as the boilers, is this true.


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## stee6043 (Jul 28, 2009)

corvett1 said:
			
		

> I've read a few post here about installing a indoor boiler and it seems like the installation cost is just as much as the boilers, is this true.



Depends on whether or not you include thermal storage and whether or not you do the install yourself....so many variables.


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## Nofossil (Jul 28, 2009)

My initial install was in parallel with an existing oil boiler. No storage, nothing fancy, did it myself.

I think I had a couple hundred dollars in valves and pipe and fittings, and a $50 Taco 007 off of eBay.

It's gotten more complicated since then............


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## stee6043 (Jul 28, 2009)

nofossil said:
			
		

> It's gotten more complicated since then............



HA....understatement of the year perhaps?


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## corvett1 (Jul 28, 2009)

Another reason I was looking at the outdoor boilers is because they have the storage built in. Can you heat a 3500-4000sq.ft. house efficiently with a indoor boiler outside in a shed with no storage.


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## SolarAndWood (Jul 28, 2009)

Which outdoor boilers have storage built in?  Or are you talking about the water in the water jacket?


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## heaterman (Jul 28, 2009)

stee6043 said:
			
		

> nofossil said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Some people have tooooo much time on their hands.


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## heaterman (Jul 28, 2009)

SolarAndWood said:
			
		

> Which outdoor boilers have storage built in?  Or are you talking about the water in the water jacket?



None that I have seen have what would realistically be called "storage". I think there are a couple that hold about 300 gallons or so. 

But heck! Even 300 gallons at a firing rate of 500,000 btu's and efficiency of 90% (like the salesman said) would only hold about 5 minutes of firing time.


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## 66chris (Feb 16, 2010)

corvett1 said:
			
		

> Does anyone know the differance between the two boilers, good or bad comments. I've read here some people are having problems with the e-classic any problems with the responce 200ssr. I know the indoor boilers are the prefered way to go on this forum, but I have no chimney on my house and the location in my basement I would have to locate the boiler would mean I would have to put a two story stove pipe on the outside of my house which I don't want to do.




From my stand point, I have looked at both boilers. Here is my points that may send you one way or another. 

Induced Draft: 
Central Boiler- down draft (sending the smoke down threw the ashes as a way to reburn them)
Heatmor- Up draft (inducing air up threw the grates  creating a hotter fire and staying true to      thier standard design)

Winner - HEATMOR, they have used the up draft systen design since 1984, I believe that you will get a more complete burn this way. With Central Boiler they have this new down draft system, it sounds like a big nightmare with the grates being plugged.

Design:
Central Boiler- complete redesign
Heatmor- Minor changes

Winner - HEATMOR they have stayed true to thier roots and have had a similiar design since 1984. With Central boilers redesign, all I have seen is people complaining about thier new product. So redesigns are good, but in this area I think Central needs to go back to the drawing board.

Warranty:
Cental Boiler- 25 year
Heatmor- Lifetime

Winner - Heatmor, Looking over both companys warranties. Heatmor warranty reads that its covers your stove for the life of it and has no conditions for corrision. Central boilers reads that they cover thier warranty for 25 years and you must follow the scheduled maintaince requirements in thier manual. Which is spraying a chemical in the stove and chimney periodically to prevent metal deteration, looks like  this will cost me more money in the long run being that you have to buy this chemical from the dealer periodically to keep the warranty in good standing. And the other turn off here is that it sates the the Dealer is only responsible for selling you the furnace. So then who preforms the warranty work?

accessability:
Cental Boiler- sprayed on urethane for insulation prevents you for see the water jacket to inspect it for leaks. An when you have a leak you will have to cut away alot of urethane to find where its at, most repairs will be done off site. They will want to respray the stove with urethane, at another location, might have somthing to do with the environment. 
Heatmor- Blanket type insulation, not of good of an r-value as urethane but is easily removable for boiler inspection. No messes when having to repair the boiler and can be done on location. 

Winner - Heatmor, with the ability to fixes the unit on location and prevent down time, it a clear choice.

Insulation:
Cental Boiler- Sprayed urethane
Heatmor- Batt Insulation

Winner - Central Boiler, the ratings of r-value on urethane Insulation will help prevent heat loss on the boiler, where with Heatmor's Batt insulation has a lessor r-value which wil allow mor e heat loss.

Construction:
Central Boiler- certified boiler plate(mild steel) They use to offer Stainless steel, but from my understanding they quit because it takes longer to weld and you have to be more precise. It slows down the production time on putting out a good quanity of stoves. 
Heatmor- 409 Grade Stainless Steel, there's not alot to say about stainless steel. Its just better, it will outlast mild steel by 3 times, 

Winner - Heatmor, they 409 stainless steel they use is titanium enhanced, in testing from all the major welding maunfactures and from some of the metallurgical engineers, they state that 409 Stainless is the all around better metal them mild steel. Yes they did say that its easier to weld mild steel and that anybody with any welding expirence could fixes a mild steel. 409 stainles steel is stronger and will last longer then mild steel in oxidation situations. Stainless gets a bad rap for stress cracking, I have found that with the 300 grade  stainless you will find alot of stress cracking, but not with the 400 grade.

Here is my thoughts, I hoped they help you with your decision. I bought a  Heatmor response 200SSR 8 months ago and I love it. I only wish that I would have waited for the Heatmor response 200SSRII. With its efficiency at 99%, I'm sure that it would have cut my wood comsuption from 5.5 cords a year down to 4 cords or less. And the best part about the new 200SSRII is that Heatmor stepped up and delivered another up draft stove. 

If I was you I would get a Heatmor Response 200SSRII.


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## altheating (Feb 16, 2010)

You may want to take a look at the newly released Outdoor Econoburn. They just put the info out to the public the other day. The Outdoor Econoburn is the same great boiler only with a weatherproof enclosure. They have also added a preheated air induction system that allows the forced draft air to be heated before it is pushed into the fire box. It will increase the efficiency and improve the overall performance. Same 25 year warranty as the Indoor Econoburn's.


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## altheating (Feb 16, 2010)

How did I miss that, the Heatmor has a unit that is 99% efficient? I would like to see those test results. I bet the test was not done by an independant lab


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## Frozen Canuck (Feb 16, 2010)

:lol:  :lol:  :lol: 4 sure on the 99% claim on any OWB smoke dragon. Time 4 me to get on my rubber boots & walk 2 the moon & back on this thick & wide river of BS that the OWB industry puts out. Let's C next will be a claim from some OWB smoke dragon manufacturer that "their" smoke dragon OWB is going to power the next mission to Mars. Maybe the entire sloar system. :lol:  :lol:  :lol:


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## Frozen Canuck (Feb 16, 2010)

Nope just thought about it, that is way to small a claim for that industry. First will be inter galactic travel, then the universe, then they will start to conquer all of the other dimensions (one by one of course) so they can keep on saying "their" OWB smoke dragon is better than anyone else's OWB smoke dragon. Stay tuned their PR people are already busy working on the next BS press release. Snake oil sales people of the wood burning industry. Shameful. Too bad, they give all a black eye (permanently). Then we get all upset when frustrated people who live near one of these start to push for legislation. We probably (absolutely) need to bang the drum (a lot) harder when someone from the wood burning industry does the snake oil sales job or we all will pay the price eventually. Funny to laugh at the lies they tell but we will all pay the price for them. In very restrictive legislation.


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## heaterman (Feb 16, 2010)

I agree with the analysis given by 66Chris. He's accurate on all the "nuts and bolts" end if things. AFA the 99% thing goes.......not so much.  99% is waaaay into condensing territory and the unit would have to see return water no higher than 110* to achieve it. A condensate drain would also be required and in addition, condensation in a wood boiler is something to avoid at all costs even if it's stainless steel. I have yet to stick the analyzer into the flue of any OWB and see more than 48% efficiency, including the EPA units.


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## 66chris (Feb 16, 2010)

For all you that love to speak before you have all the facts. Please go check out the EPA website at http://www.epa.gov/burnwise/owhhlist.html You will see that the Heatmor 200SSRII has a low heating value of 99%. So go fly your kite to the moon and check out the thier site on OWB before you talk. As for econo burn stoves, you don't even have a stove that pass phase 1 accept for seasonal burn.


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## heaterman (Feb 16, 2010)

66chris said:
			
		

> For all you that love to speak before you have all the facts. Please go check out the EPA website at http://www.epa.gov/burnwise/owhhlist.html You will see that the Heatmor 200SSRII has a low heating value of 99%. So go fly your kite to the moon and check out the thier site on OWB before you talk. As for econo burn stoves, you don't even have a stove that pass phase 1 accept for seasonal burn.



So how are they handling condensation that occurs at anything over 85-87% in ALL fossil fuel or solid fuel appliances ?


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## Frozen Canuck (Feb 16, 2010)

Ok Someone south of 49 please clear this up for me. Does the EPA testing refer to the combustion level of the wood in the sample. As far as my limited math skills will go thats the only number that is possible. Sure cannot be energy recovered from the wood (usable btu's), as heatermans response said that is in condensing territory & I have never seen a smoke dragon with a condensate drain. If that is all this test refers to....well....if I add a fan to a camp fire pretty sure I can get close to that so what use is that test????? Please clear this up for me as the math just does not add up. BTW agree with the 48% being the best efficiency that you have EVER measured in the flue of an OWB. Doubt my smoke dragon comes anywhere near that as I know my exhaust temps are in excess of the flash point of paper or wood as I can lite both simply by holding them over the flue on a very long pole


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## heaterman (Feb 16, 2010)

Frozen Canuck said:
			
		

> Ok Someone south of 49 please clear this up for me. Does the EPA testing refer to the combustion level of the wood in the sample. As far as my limited math skills will go thats the only number that is possible. Sure cannot be energy recovered from the wood (usable btu's), as heatermans response said that is in condensing territory & I have never seen a smoke dragon with a condensate drain. If that is all this test refers to....well....if I add a fan to a camp fire pretty sure I can get close to that so what use is that test????? Please clear this up for me as the math just does not add up. BTW agree with the 48% being the best efficiency that you have EVER measured in the flue of an OWB. Doubt my smoke dragon comes anywhere near that as I know my exhaust temps are in excess of the flash point of paper or wood as I can lite both simply by holding them over the flue on a very long pole



Exactly.

Common sense will tell you that flue temps would have to measure within a degree or two of actual boiler water temp in order to attain 99% efficiency. The best gas fired boilers I work with will hit 95-96% with condensate raining from the drain but only when seeing return water temps in the 90-100* range. Once return temps get above 135-140* they are actually running about 87-88%. You can't defy the laws of physics. Efficiencies above 88 require capturing the latent heat contained in the moisture laden flue gas. Tain't gonna happen with wood unless you want a really serious maintenance issue.
I'm not saying it isn't possible as I have seen more than a few Garn's fill a 5 gallon bucket with condensate when started with 45-50* water in them. Combustion efficiency was well into the 90%+ range but running any wood burner that way would be a serious mistake.

Maybe what HeatMor is referencing is the Euro method of rating heating equipment which will often quote efficiency of over 100%. Just a tad misleading.........


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## Frozen Canuck (Feb 16, 2010)

BTW the smoke dragon I refer to in my yard is..... you guessed it.....a Heatmor. That's why I am asking for clarification on these report numbers from you engineer/math types as my simple farm boy/contractor math well....comes up with a vastly different number based on my real world testing.


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## Frozen Canuck (Feb 16, 2010)

Exactly, Heaterman I have been shopping for a new boiler (nat gas) for a back up in the house, was thrilled to find a local supplier with a North American made model that tested at 90.3%. Just cannot see how a bread loaf shaped wood burner in a water jacket no less is going to beat those numbers.


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## Gooserider (Feb 17, 2010)

altheating said:
			
		

> You may want to take a look at the newly released Outdoor Econoburn. They just put the info out to the public the other day. The Outdoor Econoburn is the same great boiler only with a weatherproof enclosure. They have also added a preheated air induction system that allows the forced draft air to be heated before it is pushed into the fire box. It will increase the efficiency and improve the overall performance. Same 25 year warranty as the Indoor Econoburn's.



I've seen a couple of mentions of the Outdoor units, and I'm really glad to see one of the established gasifier companies venturing into that territory - though as I've said elsewhere I think if you have to go with an outdoor install, you are better off to put an inside unit in a larger boiler shed....

I would say though that looking at the Econoburn website, I think they could do a bit better job on the presentation - there is a mention that they exist on the front page, and some dimensions that are not very obvious on the specs page, and that's about it...  Might be worth putting more up - maybe a separate page on the outdoor units w/ more info about the shelter, perhaps details on any extra freeze protection goodies (or the ability to add them) and so on...

Gooserider


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## burnclean (Feb 22, 2010)

Lower heating value efficiency does not account for moisture loss that is why the value can be so high...the EPA also publishes the higher heating value efficiency which is the number you should be looking at.


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## Frozen Canuck (Feb 22, 2010)

Yes, I see the higher eff numbers for the Heatmor, however those are also in condensing territory. Without a condensate drain where is all that water going to? This can probably be attributed to the manufacturer suppling these numbers in a "voluntary" test. Just cannot see how the manufactuers math & claims can defy the laws of physics, if someone else can please explain it to me.


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## burnclean (Feb 22, 2010)

There are also high numbers for the Central Boiler Maxim.  I've also seen claims from indoor suppliers of 85% efficiency as well.  The high heating value efficiency numbers are *close* to condensing territory but still very possible.


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## Frozen Canuck (Feb 22, 2010)

Yes agreed, possible; however if this # is achieved on a regular basis where is all that water going to? As Heaterman stated he has achieved very high eff #s on the initial fire of a Garn, then he & his crew have to clean up the mess that is created by condensing at those high eff #s. Just cannot see how this is possible/desirable on a regular/continual basis; esp on an outside unit as all that water will become ice when exposed to outside temps, over the course of a heating season that is one huge block of ice.


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## burnclean (Feb 22, 2010)

heaterman said:
			
		

> 66chris said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



^I'd bet that those stoves don't condense, probably get close to it but they simply don't.


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## Como (Feb 22, 2010)

Lies

Damm Lies

And statistics


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