# Home nightmare, need advice.



## bfunk13 (Oct 18, 2010)

I have been doing some winterizing of my home for the last few weekends. I knew my attic had a lack of insulation so i scoped it out. I found fiberglass batts in the rafters, i lifted one up to find this pour in granular looking stuff underneath. After some investigation it looks to be vermiculite. And after researching this product, i find 80% of this used before 1990 was contaminated with asbestos. Here is the real problem, our furnace is located in the attic. We burn wood for the majority of our heat, but do kick on the furnace in the morning and it may come on throughout the night. I am so scared that i may be filling my home with this crap. I took a sample of it and am having it tested but, some bags of this contained asbestos and some did not. Depending on the vein it was produced from. So the word is it you have this vermiculite in your attic, pretty much treat it like it is contaminated. I know it costs about $8 a square foot to have this removed by an asbestos abatement team. It could even go up to 10K 20K. I was really stupid when buying this home. I did not have an inspection. Most of what i have read says its considered safe if not disturbed. I an considering heating with nothing but wood until i can find out more. Any suggestions or advice will be greatly appreciated.


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## midwestcoast (Oct 18, 2010)

Don't beat yourself up, an inspector may not have looked under the fiberglass & found the stuff anyway. Inspection quality varies like anything else.

Asbestos concerns in building material are often overblown in general & abatement conducted when the safest course may be to leave it be or encapsulate it.  That said loose vermiculite insulation can be an exposure risk & the furnace being up there would be a concern to me. It is a problem & it sounds like you're doing your homework on this.  Abundant caution is reasonable until you get a handle on the situation.  If that means leaving the furnace off until it's taken care of, well, you've got a nice woodstove sitting there...
Obviously do not go moving anything around up there & stir it up. You might consider having a certified professional (who does not work for a removal company) come & assess whether you are at significant risk of exposure from the ventilation system or other routes (it was sometimes poured into walls too).  There may be options other than removal that are less expensive & could prevent exposure: sealing all penetrations in ceilings & walls, duct sealing, moving the furnace....  Obviously any significant work in the attic should be done by an asbestos-trained professional who won't cause exposure to your family.

Before embarking on any expensive removal or isolation work I'd have a real-estate lawyer look through all the sales documents, especially any disclosure forms to see if you have any options there. Also look to see if there are any State/local programs to help homeowners in your situation?


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## billb3 (Oct 18, 2010)

Most (if not all ) of the asbestos health  problems  have been limited to the miners and processors that were exposed to it.

Most problems with asbestos comes  when you start drilling holes  and sawing products that have the stuff in it.

Asbestos can be in shingles and linoleum, too.

Up there in the attic covered up by pink is probably a minimal risk problem.

Even  if yours does have asbestos in it, the  solution is probably what you've got now - leave it  alone.
However, should you remodel - it will be good to know ahead a time that you may have some additional abatement costs associated with it. Or, work around it.


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## maverick06 (Oct 19, 2010)

I will disagree, Asbestos is scary stuff, If it was me I would get it treated or move. My grandfather died from it, he was a shipyard worker, but worked behind a desk, so that was jus teat getting carried in the wind. Why roll the dice and try to save a few bucks ($10k+), your life isnt worth it. 

I panicked when I saw rockwool in my attic, then realized it wasnt something contaminated with asbestos. 

Suggest you pay to have it cleaned up asbestos you can (sorry for the pun)


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## Highbeam (Oct 19, 2010)

Figure... you now know about it and will have to disclose this problem to future buyers. Your house value just dropped by much more than the cost to remove it. People get spooked quickly when they hear about asbestos contamination and the whole children thing. 

Shop around, you're talking about a low skill job for a guy with a big shop-vac. The real cost comes with their little suits and their supposed high level certifications. Insulation is cheap. Plan on removal of everything up there. Then in the end, blow in the modern insulation of your choice. No need to disclose anything to future buyers or to worry yourself. Peace of mind is a great thing.


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## RoseRedHoofbeats (Oct 19, 2010)

I would get it removed, for the peace of mind alone. Cancer's pretty expensive too.

~Rose


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## Wooddust (Oct 19, 2010)

RoseRedHoofbeats said:
			
		

> I would get it removed, for the peace of mind alone. Cancer's pretty expensive too.
> 
> ~Rose




Indeed.


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## midwestcoast (Oct 19, 2010)

The assumption that having it removed is the safest course just may not be true though. What about the walls & all ventilation? I'd pay for some advice on this before paying for removal. There are folks who are well trained about asbestos in buildings. Not talking about the guys in suits & respirators who go in there & pull it out by hand.
+1 on the impact to home value though.


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## bfunk13 (Oct 19, 2010)

Some good replies, thanks! I am still waiting on the test results and am looking at all options. This problem has really got me stressed out and bummed.


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## Highbeam (Oct 19, 2010)

If I'm buying your home and you disclose the asbestos problem then I am frightened away. Regardless of whether it is safer to leave it or to remove it, removing it means it is gone and you no longer have an asbestos house. Asbestos houses are right up there with black mold houses.


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## bfunk13 (Oct 20, 2010)

I agree Highbeam.


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## maverick06 (Oct 20, 2010)

dont get stressed about it. No reason to. After all whats happened is already in the past, nothing you can do other than deal with it, so dont worry. This is a case where, likely, any action is better than inaction.  (action - advice or just removal). You might also have legal recourse against previous homeowners or the asbestos companies, however I suspect that would just be wasted effort.


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## ironpony (Oct 20, 2010)

I am in the environmental industry
I am a licensed asbestos hazard evaluation specialist
You need to take 3 samples minimum up to 1000 sq ft
if they all come back negative, you are good to go
dont panic and get some help locally


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## ironpony (Oct 20, 2010)

I panicked when I saw rockwool in my attic, then realized it wasnt something contaminated with asbestos. 

the only way to know is to test it, there are alot of products which it was added to 
ex. the fingerprint powder in the CSI kids play kit contains asbestos
it was recalled for that reason
flloor tile 
cement pipe 
insulation materials
gloves
gaskets 
brake linings
your exposure is higher downtown on the street corner from all the brake dust
than what is in his attic


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## bfunk13 (Oct 20, 2010)

Thanks guys, i know i am being a bit paranoid and thinking about the worst case scenario. Just not something i was ready to find and deal with.

Iron pony, i have about 1000 sq ft up there. So send out 3 samples huh?
The first sample i am having checked is a freebie, a friend works for a large company that tests their own in house.
I was planning on contacting and sending samples to an accredited lab.
What kind of $$$ are we talking about if it needs removed?
Thanks!


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## ironpony (Oct 20, 2010)

3 random samples would meet testing requirements
our samples run 25 dollars
call in a pro and he can write a report and give you
a clean bill of health on your house
there is s good chance there is nothing there


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## bfunk13 (Oct 21, 2010)

ironpony said:
			
		

> 3 random samples would meet testing requirements
> our samples run 25 dollars
> call in a pro and he can write a report and give you
> a clean bill of health on your house
> there is s good chance there is nothing there




God i hope theres nothing, thanks!


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## burleymike (Oct 21, 2010)

I just went through this same thing.  I noticed that the rockwool in my attic is different than any I have seen anywhere else.  It has little mica flakes in it and I was concerned that it may be vermiculite.  I have been working slowly on the house for 4 years now and spent a lot of time in the attic stiring up a lot of dust.  As you the furnace is up there as well.  I sent a sample to a lab and it came back negative.  They determined the mica like flakes are indeed mica so I am comfortable with that.  

2 years ago I gutted the kitchen and used a saw to cut the old floor into squares to get it out easily.  One layer was 3/4" particle board then 9x9 linoleum tiles then 7/16 osb with sheet vinyl on it.  Only doing research about the attic insulation did I find out the 9x9 tiles were probably asbestos flooring.  This means I have some of that crap on the basement floor that would have fallen between the floor boards.  Next spring I am going to send the wife and kids out and gently mist the floor down there until all the dust turns into mud and get it all out.  I also need to wet the floor joists and underside of the floors and wipe all that down.  Good luck hopefully it is asbestos free.


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## bfunk13 (Oct 21, 2010)

Did it look anything like this?
This stuff has the little mica flakes in it as well. All material is about the size of large coffee grounds.
Thanks for the reply Mike, i too tore out some old countertops that now i believe may have had asbestos in them. Never even crossed my mind at the time.
This had a really old linoleum type stuff on it. Glad to hear yours turned out to be ok.


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## burleymike (Oct 21, 2010)

Unfortunately no, what you have is certainly vermiculite lets just hope it is not the contaminated stuff and if it is contaminated that it has not entered the living space.  Is your return duct work in the attic sealed very well?  Where is your filter in the attic or is it in the house somewhere?  I read that there could be up to 30 million homes out there with vermiculite in the attics and or walls.  Then there are all those people that have it in their gardens added to the soil.

When I figured out that the old kitchen floor was probably asbestos tile I called my dad to tell him about it.  He told me how when he was a kid Grandma had the furnace replaced and the guys spent a day tearing all that old octopus duct work out of their basement along with the white cardboard like insulation that was on the ducting.  Grandpa was a pipe fitter and brought a lot of the stuff home and insulated all the duct work in the basement with a ton of it.  Grandma was not happy about all that white dust all over the house.  She lived to 97 and died of natural causes.  I could always be worse we could be living next to Chernobyl!


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## btuser (Oct 22, 2010)

Don't beat yourself up over the inspection.  I've had two and would never pay for another.  The three times I sold a house I had to read the report and got a good laugh.  The things they picked up on were nothing compared to the things they missed!


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## edge-of-the-woods (Nov 29, 2016)

This is an old thread, I just looked up vermiculite and read this, b/c I'm about to post something new about it.

Just wanted to add, testing vermiculite for asbestos doesn't mean anything.   The EPA has a guideline that all vermiculite should be treated as if it has asbestos in it.  In CT, there's a law on the books that says the same thing.  Don't risk it, get rid of it.


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## Highbeam (Nov 29, 2016)

edge-of-the-woods said:


> This is an old thread, I just looked up vermiculite and read this, b/c I'm about to post something new about it.
> 
> Just wanted to add, testing vermiculite for asbestos doesn't mean anything.   The EPA has a guideline that all vermiculite should be treated as if it has asbestos in it.  In CT, there's a law on the books that says the same thing.  Don't risk it, get rid of it.



It wouldn't be hard for a homeowner to suck this stuff out with a long shopvac hose, bag it, and dump it in the landfill. Nobody would know....


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## peakbagger (Nov 29, 2016)

Highbeam said:


> It wouldn't be hard for a homeowner to suck this stuff out with a long shopvac hose, bag it, and dump it in the landfill. Nobody would know....



Definitely a bad idea, illegal disposal of asbestos is a federal offense, jail time and massive fines after the cost to remove it from the landfill is paid by the person who dumped it.


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## Highbeam (Nov 29, 2016)

peakbagger said:


> Definitely a bad idea, illegal disposal of asbestos is a federal offense, jail time and massive fines after the cost to remove it from the landfill is paid by the person who dumped it.



It's not asbestos, just the old dirty insulation in my attic.


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## lml999 (Nov 30, 2016)

Highbeam said:


> It's not asbestos, just the old dirty insulation in my attic.



Maybe so, but that shopvac just may have launched a cloud of asbestos fibers into the air.


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## edge-of-the-woods (Nov 30, 2016)

Highbeam said:


> It's not asbestos, just the old dirty insulation in my attic.



And in your lungs.  You would breathe in a TON of that stuff when you were doing that, even with a respirator.  Once it goes airborne, you're in trouble.


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## semipro (Nov 30, 2016)

IIRC fiber length has a lot to do with how dangerous asbestos is. 
Having been exposed a lot of it as an auto mechanic I was glad to read somewhere that the shorter fibers like those produced by worn brake linings are less likely to cause problems.


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## mcdougy (Dec 2, 2016)

I recently had dealings with a attic with vermiculite in it. I was told by the insulating contractor that even though it gets removed, the house is tagged as having it in there previously and must be disclosed to the next buyer.


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## Bad Wolf (Dec 3, 2016)

If it is contaminated, typically a home owner can do the abatement themselves.  Check with your local Department of Environmental Protection or Department of Public Health. Its not rocket science. 

From the Wyoming website:
You may perform asbestos abatement in your own home but this is not recommended as improperly following asbestos abatement procedure will lead to accidental contamination and the possibility of disturbing materials that were otherwise inert and harmless.  Additionally, cheaper alternatives to removal are available and can be applied through the use of a trained and licensed professional.

If you must perform asbestos safe abatement, be sure to have the services of an asbestos inspector.  The inspector will advices you on potential hazards and help you formulate an appropriate abatement procedure.  Most importantly, you will need to disposed of asbestos containing materials accordingly to avoid a citation and fines.


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