# Best Electric Water Heater



## thinkxingu (Jun 28, 2016)

Looks like a lot of water heaters getting replaced around here! I've ruled out on demand, as I'll never recoup costs and there's a wide range of experiences; I've also ruled out hybrid because of cost and because we lose power a lot.

So, suggestions on best standard electric water heater?  I'll be installing myself.

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## peakbagger (Jun 28, 2016)

Water heater life is very dependent on your local water quality. Some water will chew up heaters and some others doesn't. Installation details also factor in, in some areas if you forget to install galvanic nipples (isolate the copper from the steel nipples on the tank) you are done for. Same for anodes, aggressive water means replacing anodes every few years. Skip it and you have just doomed the heater to failure, keep the anodes in good shape and you can see 20 years. Get rid of the plastic drain valves and flush the tank of sediment yearly unless you determine that your water supply has minimal sediment or you have an upstream filter. Odds are if you wait several years and don't drain it with the plastic valve its not going to open.  There are companies that make Stainless steel water heaters, you pay a lot more up front but they last a lot longer with less maintenance, (no anodes). Most folks get scared off by the upfront cost of stainless and just go with known brand and hope.

A secret that folks don't know about municipal water systems is that the local fire department can trash a water heater if there is nearby fire. They can inadvertently pull a suction on the water line and collapse a hot water heater unless the house is protected by a backflow preventer. Years ago I tested fire hydrants for a water utility and they usually could tell where were testing by the trail of complaints. We did it during the day but we also had a crew that worked nights flushing hydrants. Folks would not even know that the testing occurred overnight but it might have been enough to crack or collapse a stone liner.


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## iron (Jun 28, 2016)

when ours goes, i think i'm leaning this way:
http://www.geappliances.com/ge/heat-pump-hot-water-heater.htm


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## LowbanksArcher (Jun 28, 2016)

iron said:


> when ours goes, i think i'm leaning this way:
> http://www.geappliances.com/ge/heat-pump-hot-water-heater.htm


Very interesting


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## thinkxingu (Jun 28, 2016)

iron said:


> when ours goes, i think i'm leaning this way:
> http://www.geappliances.com/ge/heat-pump-hot-water-heater.htm


That's what I referred to as a hybrid. The ratings are not great (average 3 stars on most review sites), they need a drain for condensate, temperature/humidity can be an issue, microelectronics can be tricky and expensive to fix, and the cost might not be made up in the service life.

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## Highbeam (Jun 29, 2016)

Just go buy a cheap one at home depot and install it right. If you are too good for that then go marathon. You don't need a huge one unless you are bath tub people.


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## Highbeam (Jun 29, 2016)

Just go buy a cheap one at home depot and install it right. If you are too good for that then go marathon. You don't need a huge one unless you are bath tub people.


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## thinkxingu (Jun 29, 2016)

Highbeam said:


> Just go buy a cheap one at home depot and install it right. If you are too good for that then go marathon. You don't need a huge one unless you are bath tub people.


It's not that I'm "too good" for anything, it's that we go away for periods at a time and have an all-electric house we're trying to be frugal in.

That being said, it looks like we have three major options: Whirlpool, Rheem (not Marathon, regular), and Kenmore. Any input welcome:

Size: there are four of us--the kids still take baths and my wife and I like them here and there in winter. We also often run the dishwasher and washing machine together. Currently, we have a 50 gallon.

Insulation: obviously we want to save as much money as possible, are some brands better here?

Complexity: we lose power here and there and use a generator, so something not too complicated that might get messed up.

Thanks!

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## Highbeam (Jun 29, 2016)

thinkxingu said:


> It's not that I'm "too good" for anything, it's that we go away for periods at a time and have an all-electric house we're trying to be frugal in.
> 
> That being said, it looks like we have three major options: Whirlpool, Rheem (not Marathon, regular), and Kenmore. Any input welcome:



Ha! You're too good sounds bad, sorry. Okay try this, if none of the regular water heaters are good enough for you.... then step up to a marathon. Otherwise, they are all the same. Steel tank, lined with some sort of ceramic, replaceable standardized elements, drains, thermostats, and nipples. All of those options are equivalent so shop for price. There is something to be said for using off the shelf common parts like water heaters which need to be easily replaceable.

I used the basic, electric, 40 gallon, rheem, water heater from home depot and it went in super easily with no leaks. Used a drain pan, earthquake straps, expansion tank, and semi rigid stainless steel connectors to ensure easy replacement. It's now in a dedicated closet with easy access for inspection and replacement if needed. Being fed with filtered soft water I never intend to drain it or remove the anode rod.


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## Highbeam (Jun 29, 2016)

thinkxingu said:


> Size: there are four of us--the kids still take baths and my wife and I like them here and there in winter. We also often run the dishwasher and washing machine together. Currently, we have a 50 gallon.
> 
> Insulation: obviously we want to save as much money as possible, are some brands better here?
> 
> Complexity: we lose power here and there and use a generator, so something not too complicated that might get messed up.



A 40 or 50 gallon would likely be adequate. I too have a family of four with daughters in the double digits of age. We don't use the bathtub for baths and have modern fixtures and appliances. Have never run out of hot water.

All water heater brands have to meet the current energy regulations which require a significant amount of insulation. So significant that standby losses are virtually zero for all modern water heaters. The marathons have more but we're at the point of diminishing returns.

Your generator will need to provide 4500 watts to run the water heater. They are not complicated but do need a good bit of power. I choose not to try and run the water heater by generator since that is a huge amount of generator capacity for an item that is not really critical. Plus, due to modern insulation levels you will have 50 gallons of 120 degree water ready to go for quite some time. That 50 gallons makes a whole lot more 100 degree water for showering.

Try and grow your kids out of baths. Terribly wasteful.


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## Buzz Saw (Jun 29, 2016)

Highbeam said:


> semi rigid stainless steel connectors.




When you use the semi rigid connector is the galvanized connector(I forget what they are called) needed?

Thanks.


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## maple1 (Jun 30, 2016)

What Highbeam is saying, x2.

I wouldn't try to factor in power-outage situations, unless you're talking being without power for days at a time. Even then, there is enough reserve in the tank to get a quick shower or two out of. We have no need for any hot water while waiting for power to come back on. We actually had our longest outage in months just last night - hot water was way down the list of wants. You can catch up on dirty dishes, laundry & baths when the power comes back.

Ours is 80 gallons. It's 5 years old now, no issues yet (knock on wood). I watched for sales then jumped when I saw one. I added a layer of fiberglass insulation to it, and heat traps. Very efficient. I wasn't sure about the added insulation, and if it would be worth it, but after adding it I could feel warmth in the wall of the tank with my hand under the insulation. So I think it helps. Getting the heater up off the floor on a (solid) stand also helps.

But I would fully cost out a Heat Pump heater first - there are incentives in place in some areas that make them pretty darn attractive. Check out threads in the Green Room for more info on those.


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## thinkxingu (Jun 30, 2016)

maple1 said:


> What Highbeam is saying, x2.
> 
> I wouldn't try to factor in power-outage situations, unless you're talking being without power for days at a time.
> 
> But I would fully cost out a Heat Pump heater first - there are incentives in place in some areas that make them pretty darn attractive. Check out threads in the Green Room for more info on those.



Yeah, I decided to skip power outage consideration.

I can get a hybrid for $1000 with a $300 federal tax credit and maybe a credit from my power company (if I get it professionally installed). I'm guessing somewhere around $800 in the end, but, as I mentioned above, I would need to add a condensate line, which would add to the cost and complexity, and the reviews on the $1000 ones are mediocre at best--electronics problems, leaks, etc.--while the actual savings are questionable.

From what I've read, if I keep the basement at 60 in the winter, I'd have to use the hybrid mode which saves MAYBE 10%--at that rate, I'd save around $25/year. Assuming ten trouble-free years, I'd barely break even.

I'm leaning towards a Kenmore 50 gallon for $508 with free delivery. We have a Kenmore now that has been solid for 12 years, and the fit would be perfect.

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## Seasoned Oak (Jun 30, 2016)

Highbeam said:


> Just go buy a cheap one at home depot and install it right. If you are too good for that then go marathon. You don't need a huge one unless you are bath tub people.


Agreed We have 6 people on a 30 Gallon,all showers. Works fine. Im considering a Geo spring just because i run a dehumidifier all summer and have so much hot water use. Probably costing ME $50 a MONTH right now just for hot water. It helps that i just signed up for  .045cKWH generation, that alone is saving me $50 a month.


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## maple1 (Jun 30, 2016)

thinkxingu said:


> Yeah, I decided to skip power outage consideration.
> 
> I can get a hybrid for $1000 with a $300 federal tax credit and maybe a credit from my power company (if I get it professionally installed). I'm guessing somewhere around $800 in the end, but, as I mentioned above, I would need to add a condensate line, which would add to the cost and complexity, and the reviews on the $1000 ones are mediocre at best--electronics problems, leaks, etc.--while the actual savings are questionable.
> 
> ...



Do you use a dehumidifier?

I also highly doubt that 60° thing too. There are lots of people posting different real-world experiences in the Green Room.

I like our conventional electric, don't get that wrong - but if the gap was only $300 between it & a HPWH, and I could displace dehumidifier use with it (or I could use some added A/C effect in the summer), I would be seriously considering a HPWH.


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## thinkxingu (Jun 30, 2016)

maple1 said:


> Do you use a dehumidifier?
> 
> I also highly doubt that 60° thing too. There are lots of people posting different real-world experiences in the Green Room.
> 
> I like our conventional electric, don't get that wrong - but if the gap was only $300 between it & a HPWH, and I could displace dehumidifier use with it (or I could use some added A/C effect in the summer), I would be seriously considering a HPWH.


I do use a dehumidifier, but my water heater is in a closet in the corner of a room, so I'm not sure that would make any difference. I'll check them out a bit more, but I'm still thinking the condensate line is a deal breaker.

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## maple1 (Jun 30, 2016)

If I used a dehumidifier, a condensate line would also be a non-factor. A dehumidifier also makes condensate, so it would need to be dealt with either way.

You might be able to dehumidify and make hot water with a HPWH, using the same amount of electricity per month that you are using now just to dehumidify. Or even less.


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## velvetfoot (Jun 30, 2016)

The heat pump water heater makes noise and the resistance model is silent.


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## cableman (Jul 1, 2016)

My condensate pump dropped to 19.99 free ship on amazon, i actually ordered it for the dehumidifier i was gonna order. Ended up using it on the hphw i ended up installing.
I just ran it outside 20' away using some pex and clear hose.


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## thinkxingu (Jul 1, 2016)

maple1 said:


> If I used a dehumidifier, a condensate line would also be a non-factor. A dehumidifier also makes condensate, so it would need to be dealt with either way.
> 
> You might be able to dehumidify and make hot water with a HPWH, using the same amount of electricity per month that you are using now just to dehumidify. Or even less.


Like I said, my water heater is in a closet so I'd still have to use a dehumidifier.

I'll look into the HP versions, but I'm not convinced it's best for us.

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## semipro (Jul 4, 2016)

velvetfoot said:


> The heat pump water heater makes noise and the resistance model is silent.


Our resistance electric water heater is quite noisy actually.  I believe its because we have hard water and the mineral build-up on the elements somehow causes localized boiling of the water, or something like that.


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## jebatty (Jul 5, 2016)

Our electric hot water heater is on an "off-peak" rate of about $0.06/kWh whereby electricity is furnished only between 11pm and 7am. Off-peak usage is on a separate meter. We never run out of hot water during the off time, which is similar to a 16 hour power outage every day.

The water heater is new but also has added insulation and heat traps. Recently we were gone for 3 weeks and the off-peak meter showed standby losses between 2-3 kWh/day. Usage including standby losses when we are home averages about 100-110 kWh/month. 

I doubt a HP would work well in our basement because we keep the basement at about 50-55 degrees during the winter. It does warm up during the summer to above 60F but always stays cool. We also dehumidify in the summer from about July 1 to Sept 15. Also, at 110 kWh/month at $6.50/month for electricity, or $78/year, a HP likely would never pay its way after considering the cost plus electric usage by the HP.


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## maple1 (Jul 5, 2016)

jebatty said:


> We also dehumidify in the summer from about July 1 to Sept 15. Also, at 110 kWh/month at $6.50/month for electricity, or $78/year, a HP likely would never pay its way after considering the cost plus electric usage by the HP.



Any idea on the consumption of your dehumidifier?


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## Highbeam (Jul 5, 2016)

Buzz Saw said:


> When you use the semi rigid connector is the galvanized connector(I forget what they are called) needed?
> 
> Thanks.



I got rid of my copper plumbing so I don't have to worry about that but from what I understand the ss is like brass, not reactive. So no extra dielectric fittings are needed.


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## jebatty (Jul 7, 2016)

maple1 said:


> Any idea on the consumption of your dehumidifier?


 I'm putting the Kill-O-Watt on it to verify, my estimate is 2-3/kWh/day.


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## maple1 (Jul 7, 2016)

jebatty said:


> I'm putting the Kill-O-Watt on it to verify, my estimate is 2-3/kWh/day.



That would translate to about $10-15/mo here. Or about half what it costs us for resistance electric DHW.

So if a HPWH could cut your electricity consumption for DHW in half (think that's been reported on here) AND displace a dehumidifier at the same time - that's some real compounding savings going on.


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## thinkxingu (Jul 7, 2016)

maple1 said:


> So if a HPWH could cut your electricity consumption for DHW in half (think that's been reported on here) AND displace a dehumidifier at the same time - that's some real compounding savings going on.



Yes, if your water heater isn't in a closet, doesn't require a condensate pump, you don't need to raise the temp of the room for the heat pump to work effectively, you don't have major computer-control-wrecking power outages, the HP water heater is as reliable and doesn't cost much more than a standard one, and your numbers are correct. Be interesting to know for sure!


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## maple1 (Jul 7, 2016)

thinkxingu said:


> Yes, if your water heater isn't in a closet, doesn't require a condensate pump, you don't need to raise the temp of the room for the heat pump to work effectively, you don't have major computer-control-wrecking power outages, the HP water heater is as reliable and doesn't cost much more than a standard one, and your numbers are correct. Be interesting to know for sure!
> 
> Sent from my XT1528 using Tapatalk



The only one of those I might be concerned about is the control-wrecking power outage thing. Then again, there is lots of sensitive electronic stuff kicking around this place that we haven't lost yet. Well, I did have a computer motherboard go bad one time, that may or may not have been outage related. There might be whole-house protection available that would protect everything?

The closet situation might be able to be overcome by some ducting, condensate has to be dealt with somehow if using a dehumidifier anyway & condensate pumps are cheap (the condensate from our Venmar just drips into a 25 gallon plastic barrel in our basement, that gets used to flush toilets in an outage), don't think I have read yet of anyone having to raise their temps for a HP to work effectively, I think the HPWH defaults to ordinary resistance heating if something happens to the HP side, and also doesn't sound like a big cost difference from some of the incentives I have read about on here.

But it still comes down to situational issues, and personal preferences & priorities - all of those might not apply to everyone. And yes it is all very interesting - I'm not sure right now what we would do if our resistance heater were to go belly up. Likely another one (incentives are quite lacking here) - but there would be lots to consider.


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## thinkxingu (Jul 7, 2016)

maple1 said:


> The only one of those I might be concerned about is the control-wrecking power outage thing. Then again, there is lots of sensitive electronic stuff kicking around this place that we haven't lost yet. Well, I did have a computer motherboard go bad one time, that may or may not have been outage related. There might be whole-house protection available that would protect everything?
> 
> The closet situation might be able to be overcome by some ducting, condensate has to be dealt with somehow if using a dehumidifier anyway & condensate pumps are cheap (the condensate from our Venmar just drips into a 25 gallon plastic barrel in our basement, that gets used to flush toilets in an outage), don't think I have read yet of anyone having to raise their temps for a HP to work effectively, I think the HPWH defaults to ordinary resistance heating if something happens to the HP side, and also doesn't sound like a big cost difference from some of the incentives I have read about on here.
> 
> But it still comes down to situational issues, and personal preferences & priorities - all of those might not apply to everyone. And yes it is all very interesting - I'm not sure right now what we would do if our resistance heater were to go belly up. Likely another one (incentives are quite lacking here) - but there would be lots to consider.


I checked this checklist (https://www.energystar.gov/products...electric_storage_water_heaters/considerations) and info page out and two other things came up: the first is that because the HPWH pulls in heat, if it's in conditioned space the heat will work harder reducing efficiency. The second is that it shouldn't be in a closet as the AC effect it has also will reduce efficiency.

It's certainly a close call--in the end, I'm not confident a HPWH would be trouble free and cost-effective enough for me to deal with what the installation would require (pump, plumbing/wiring changes to accommodate height, etc.).

I'd be interested to know the future, however, to be able to tell how much each would have cost me in the long-run both in money and frustration!

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## Seasoned Oak (Jul 7, 2016)

thinkxingu said:


> Yeah, I decided to skip power outage consideration.
> 
> I can get a hybrid for $1000 with a $300 federal tax credit and maybe a credit from my power company (if I get it professionally installed). I'm guessing somewhere around $800 in the end,
> 
> ...


Check with your local Power company Mine is giving $400 , plus the heap pump only mode is good down to about 40 degrees .so you could run it all the time in heat pump only. It only reduces the room temp by about 2 degrees ,intermittently. Its incredibally easy to hook up took me about 10 minutes.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jul 7, 2016)

velvetfoot said:


> The heat pump water heater makes noise and the resistance model is silent.


Sounds like a small refrigerator.


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## semipro (Jul 7, 2016)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Sounds like a small refrigerator.


Our older blue top Geospring is louder than that, a definite potential downside. 
On the other hand, Ours has been relatively problem-free for over 4 years now.  
We had one error code that never resurfaced after a hard reboot. 
The humidification and filtering of our basement air has been a real bonus.


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## thinkxingu (Jul 7, 2016)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Check with your local Power company Mine is giving $400 , plus the heap pump only mode is good down to about 40 degrees .so you could run it all the time in heat pump only. It only reduces the room temp by about 2 degrees ,intermittently. Its incredibally easy to hook up took me about 10 minutes.


I did--the rebate would essentially cover the required installation, which I can do by myself. The only one I've found that would make sense, the Geospring, gets very varied reviews. The ones that get great reviews are $500+ more.

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## thinkxingu (Jul 7, 2016)

semipro said:


> Our older blue top Geospring is louder than that, a definite potential downside.
> On the other hand, Ours has been relatively problem-free for over 4 years now.
> We had one error code that never resurfaced after a hard reboot.
> The humidification and filtering of our basement air has been a real bonus.


"Relatively" is not what I'm looking for!

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## Seasoned Oak (Jul 7, 2016)

thinkxingu said:


> I did--the rebate would essentially cover the required installation, which I can do by myself. The only one I've found that would make sense, the Geospring, gets very varied reviews. The ones that get great reviews are $500+ more.
> 
> Sent from my XT1528 using Tapatalk


I think GE has ironed out most of the flaws by now. Waranty work cuts into the bottom line. They do give a 10 years parts warranty which i can do myself. The first ones from china had most of the problems,now all made in USA.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jul 7, 2016)

First impressions ,this is a quality unit (the geospring 50 gal) Whenever it runs my dehumififier shuts off,so im saving there as well. I should have bought one of these a long time ago. I have 6 people here and use 7000 gals of water a month most of it HOT water.


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## semipro (Jul 7, 2016)

thinkxingu said:


> "Relatively" is not what I'm looking for!
> 
> Sent from my XT1528 using Tapatalk


Just sharing what I know...for all reading. 
Its anecdotal of course, but my resistance electrical heater has required more maintenance then the GeoSpring. We have two water heaters and hard well water. 
The hard water is very tough on resistance elements.  
The design of the Geospring with the heating coil embedded in the outer wall of the tank should actually result in less build-up of minerals there.  Since we use our GS in HP only mode the minerals should not build up much on the "back-up" elements.


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## byQ (Jul 7, 2016)

I wanted to go with the Geospring 50 gallon hybrid. It is superior technology compared to just an electric water heater. In reality the Geospring is cheaper in real dollars over time. And any rebates really make it cheaper.

Why I didn't get the hybrid? The $300 federal rebate doesn't apply for new construction. My state only offers $35 rebate. And most importantly, I would have to locate the WH in a location where the machine's noise could be heard - to bad. I was thinking of a house redesign so I could get one - but it is really to late.


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## jebatty (Jul 8, 2016)

This gets complicated when comparing a HP hybrid to a resistance (R) hwh in our household. Based on the last 12 months, we use an average of about 150 kWh/yr of electricity for R hot water, which at a rate of $0.054/kWh = $97/yr for electricity. The Kill-O-Watt showed 6 kWh/day for the dehumidifier, and it would be used on average from Jun 15 - Sep 15, 90 days, 540 kWh/season for dehumidification, which at a rate of $0.108/kWh = $58/season. Total electricity cost = $155.00/yr.

Based on kWh of electricity used for R hot water (150/365 = 0.41 kWh/day), assuming a temp rise of 80*/gal (50 to 130F), that would take 80 btu/gal or 0.0234 kWh/gal for electricity. Daily hot water use then would be 0.41/0.0234 = 17 gal of hot water per day.

So, how much $ would be saved from a HP hybrid? Probably only a small part of the dehumidifcation, as the HP hybrid would operate minimally to provide 17 gal of hot water per day. The dehumidifier would still need to operate most of the time. I might assume the HP hybrid would save about 1/2 of the electric cost of R hot water, or about $50/yr. Total savings could be somewhat more than $50/yr. 

Next comes noise and condensate drainage. The hot water heater is located in a part of the basement that we use a lot for various purposes. I'm not personally aware of the noise level, but based on noise comments, noise could be a real problem. Drainage would not be a problem as the hot water heater is located near a floor drain. 

Our history of R hot water heaters is that they last in the 20 year range. I replaced one this summer after 20 years of service, not because it was leaking but because the thermostat had failed, and 20 years is a long time for a hot water heater. Replaced out of conservative caution to obviate a future failure. Cost of the replacement after utility rebate was $200. The rebate is available because the hot water heater is on the off-peak rate. I did the install my self -- very easy.

Final result: cost savings, if any, would be small. R hot water heaters are very simple and dependable appliances that last a long time with virtually no required maintenance. Element replacement is cheap and easy, if needed. Conclusion: I doubt it would make any financial sense to switch to a HP hybrid.


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## jebatty (Jul 8, 2016)

Forgot to mention that during Dec - April the basement temp is 50-55F, and that may make the HP hybrid not usable in HP mode but need to operate in R mode. Result, $0 savings during this period.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jul 8, 2016)

Jebetty
How do you know exactly how much your water heat used,you have some kind of meter hooked up to it?


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## jebatty (Jul 8, 2016)

I calculated hot water used based on electricity usage. We get electricity for hot water only between 11pm and 7am, and my guess is that the hot water heater only heats once during this period because we are not then using hot water. So, we start the day with hot water, use it during the day, and the hot water heater re-heats at night. The water heater is on a separate meter, so I also know the electricity used.

Cold water to the hot water heater comes from our well, estimated water temp is is 50*, and the hot water heater is set at 130*, so a temperature rise of 80*. It takes 1 btu to raise one gallon of water 1*, so 80 btus to raise 1 gal of water from 50* to 130*. 1 kWh of electricity is 3412 btus in energy. So it takes 80/3412 kWh of electricity to raise 1 gal from 50* to 130*, or 0.0234 kWh. 

We use about 150 kWh/yr of electricity for hot water, or 150/365 per day = 0.41 kWh/day. If heating 1 gal takes 0.0234 kWh, then 0.41/0.0234 = number of gallons heated per day = 17.5 gallons. 

Obviously, a number of assumptions here, but all pretty accurate, at least close enough to get a good estimate of hot water used. Hot water use also includes system losses as well as hot water used.

Let me know if you think this methodology is off-base or if I missed something.


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## velvetfoot (Jul 8, 2016)

I have noticed of late that while the toilets upstairs have condensed water on them because of the humidity, the basement pipes around the well tank and softener don't.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jul 8, 2016)

I have no idea how much hot water we use but out of the 7000 gallons the only thing that gets all cold water are the toilets. We do lots of clothes washing ,in both hot and cold ,dish washer is hot only and showers mostly hot. Id say at least half or more of the water we use is hot.


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## Don2222 (Jul 17, 2016)

I am leaning towards this one at Home Depot
A little Romex and 2 -40 amp breakers and it is done.
My neighbor got one and loves it. When she is away there is zero cost!
http://m.homedepot.com/p/EcoSmart-24-kW-Self-Modulating-4-6-GPM-Electric-Tankless-Water-Heater-ECO-24/203316217?cm_mmc=Shopping|THD|G|0|G-BASE-PLA-D26P-WaterHeaters|&gclid=CNzIwrPn-80CFU5Zhgod8XoO0Q&gclsrc=aw.ds


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## maple1 (Jul 18, 2016)

A tankless heater wouldn't be my choice.


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## cableman (Jul 18, 2016)

That tankless is 24000 watts!


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## thinkxingu (Jul 18, 2016)

maple1 said:


> A tankless heater wouldn't be my choice.


This. In the end, with the absolute best scenario, I might save a few hundred bucks over a decade going with an HP or on-demand, but the potential issues vs. simplicity outweighs the money.  And, if I were to ever go solar, that difference would be further minimized. This, of course, is in my situation, which, as mentioned, is in a small closet, would need condensate line run, and new wiring/plumbing. YMMV.

Thanks for the input, everyone!

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## maple1 (Jul 18, 2016)

Don2222 said:


> I am leaning towards this one at Home Depot
> A little Romex and 2 -40 amp breakers and it is done.
> My neighbor got one and loves it. When she is away there is zero cost!
> http://m.homedepot.com/p/EcoSmart-24-kW-Self-Modulating-4-6-GPM-Electric-Tankless-Water-Heater-ECO-24/203316217?cm_mmc=Shopping|THD|G|0|G-BASE-PLA-D26P-WaterHeaters|&gclid=CNzIwrPn-80CFU5Zhgod8XoO0Q&gclsrc=aw.ds



To elaborate a bit more, you'd need three - 40 amp breakers, and a run of AWG 8 for each one. Plus the panel space & capacity for it. So that little bit of Romex can add up in a hurry when it's AWG 8 & you need to run three runs of it.

With each little flow of hot water, it's chewing up 24kw of juice. Then when the flow stops, all that heat generated in the elements & heater that hasn't made it out of the heater is lost - whereas when conventional elements have power cut to them, at least the heat goes into the water to be stored for future use. And, a conventional heater usually doesn't cut in with small flows of water.

There is very little standby loss in a conventional tank type electric water heater. If you'll be away that long, you could always turn it off.

Some of my thoughts on electric indirects...


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## Seasoned Oak (Jul 18, 2016)

maple1 said:


> A tankless heater wouldn't be my choice.


Only thing they save is standby loss which is not a big problem anymore.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jul 18, 2016)

maple1 said:


> With each little flow of hot water, it's chewing up 24kw of juice. Then when the flow stops, all that heat generated in the elements & heater that hasn't made it out of the heater is lost - whereas when conventional elements have power cut to them, at least the heat goes into the water to be stored for future use..
> ...


LIke when the wife is preparing a meal at the sink and running part hot water and part cold. I can see that thing cycling on and off a hundred times a day.


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## Don2222 (Jul 18, 2016)

maple1 said:


> To elaborate a bit more, you'd need three - 40 amp breakers, and a run of AWG 8 for each one. Plus the panel space & capacity for it. So that little bit of Romex can add up in a hurry when it's AWG 8 & you need to run three runs of it.
> 
> With each little flow of hot water, it's chewing up 24kw of juice. Then when the flow stops, all that heat generated in the elements & heater that hasn't made it out of the heater is lost - whereas when conventional elements have power cut to them, at least the heat goes into the water to be stored for future use. And, a conventional heater usually doesn't cut in with small flows of water.
> 
> ...


Here is a complete EcoSmart system that my neighbor installed and used a FloTec holding tank so not heating really cold water.
See pics
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...tion-pics-good-efficient.143673/#post-1939059
I am planning on using the indirect tank that my oil boiler uses so oil heat would be the backup I can connect the generator too for a long power outage.
You do not need 3 - 40 amp breakers on the smaller units. My neighbor uses the EcoSmart-18 that needs 2 - 40 amp breakers. 8 Guage is not too hard to work with or too expensive if purchased at Home Depot. I just did a run of 6-3 for my 50 amp welder in the new workshop and it only cost about $100 with the outlet. Yes you do need space in your circuit box which I also did not have! Therefore I just installed a  125 amp sub panel in the boiler room so I can easily connect what ever EcoSmart panel I choose. Also with the new liquid copper lock - no sweating is needed for the copper water connections! I cannot wait to try that!
Just throwing out this option, I did some research to put in my 2 cents.


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## thinkxingu (Jul 19, 2016)

Don2222 said:


> Here is a complete EcoSmart system that my neighbor installed and used a FloTec holding tank so not heating really cold water.
> See pics
> https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...tion-pics-good-efficient.143673/#post-1939059
> I am planning on using the indirect tank that my oil boiler uses so oil heat would be the backup I can connect the generator too for a long power outage.
> ...


The Copper Lock looks cool! Wonder how that compares to Sharkbite connections?

As for the on-demand, each time you start adding stuff--breakers, wire runs, sub panels--the payoff is reduced.  If the electric ones were more efficient and reliable, maybe, but given they're not...

Sent from my XT1528 using Tapatalk


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## Seasoned Oak (Jul 19, 2016)

An oil boiler to heat hot water in the summer has to be one of the most expensive ways to heat water. There is a constant heat loss while on standby.


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## thinkxingu (Jul 19, 2016)

Seasoned Oak said:


> An oil boiler to heat hot water in the summer has to be one of the most expensive ways to heat water. There is a constant heat loss while on standby.


And it heats the basement, making the AC work harder. Like pushing a car uphill.

Sent from my XT1528 using Tapatalk


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## Don2222 (Jul 19, 2016)

thinkxingu said:


> And it heats the basement, making the AC work harder. Like pushing a car uphill.
> 
> Sent from my XT1528 using Tapatalk



X2. I have to get rid of it!
Using the efficient Buderus oil boiler for hot water Only uses approx 225 gallons a year for 4 people.

225 x $1.66 per gallon is $373.50 right now but if it goes up to $4 then it is $900 a year! yikes

*How much does your hot water heating cost?*


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## Seasoned Oak (Jul 19, 2016)

Don2222 said:


> X2. I have to get rid of it!
> Using the efficient Buderus oil boiler for hot water Only uses approx 225 gallons a year for 4 people.
> 
> 225 x $1.66 per gallon is $373.50 right now but if it goes up to $4 then it is $900 a year! yikes
> ...


My HPWH is estimated to use $135 annually for 4 people but may be less if the room temp is above 70 and the WH set temp is below 135. I keep mine at 120. and when the wood stove is going the room temp goes to 90 so should be less.


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## maple1 (Jul 19, 2016)

$25/month of $0.18/kWh electricity.


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## thinkxingu (Jul 26, 2016)

Installed my Kenmore standard electric water heater yesterday and set it to 120 degrees--$515 total, so we'll see how it goes!

Sent from my XT1528 using Tapatalk


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## Highbeam (Jul 27, 2016)

thinkxingu said:


> Installed my Kenmore standard electric water heater yesterday and set it to 120 degrees--$515 total, so we'll see how it goes!
> 
> Sent from my XT1528 using Tapatalk



If it works on day one with no leaks, it will likely last a long long time. These modern appliances are either crap out of the box or pretty good.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jul 27, 2016)

Highbeam said:


> If it works on day one with no leaks, it will likely last a long long time. These modern appliances are either crap out of the box or pretty good.


Ditto that,last one i replaced had stripped threads where the water pipes attach. No way could i get it to stop leaking from the threads. Not much leak testing done at the factory i guess. Had to swap it out at HD the same day .Its replacement is going on 5 years now


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## iron (Jan 10, 2019)

curious if anyone has new thoughts on whether the hybrid water heaters are ready for prime time yet. i'm looking at this one (https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-P...Electric-Water-Heater-XE50T10HD50U1/303419574) and with a $500 rebate from my local energy company, it comes out just a few hundred more than a standard water heater and purports to save $200-300/yr compared to the standard heater. financially, it seems like a no brainer. but, i am suspect of durability and reliability. i believe this rheem had some recalls 2-3 years ago with heaters that were catching fire. plus, with the hybrid, you have to install condensate lines such, so it wouldn't be a plug and play like with a standard heater.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 10, 2019)

iron said:


> curious if anyone has new thoughts on whether the hybrid water heaters are ready for prime time yet..


Did you read the reviews?  347 of them on the webpage the heater is on. Avg 4.5 out of 5 stars


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## Tegbert (Jan 10, 2019)

iron said:


> curious if anyone has new thoughts on whether the hybrid water heaters are ready for prime time yet. i'm looking at this one (https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-P...Electric-Water-Heater-XE50T10HD50U1/303419574) and with a $500 rebate from my local energy company, it comes out just a few hundred more than a standard water heater and purports to save $200-300/yr compared to the standard heater. financially, it seems like a no brainer. but, i am suspect of durability and reliability. i believe this rheem had some recalls 2-3 years ago with heaters that were catching fire. plus, with the hybrid, you have to install condensate lines such, so it wouldn't be a plug and play like with a standard heater.



I have the geosprings version for 2 1/2 years now and it works great. 90% of the time it’s in heat pump only mode. I just about got it for free with the pud rebate and federal rebate that was going on. I did have to run a condensate pump but that’s it. Just plugged it into the outlet and ran a drain line to the washer drain and ran a pvc pipe from the water heater to the pump. Really only added 10-15 minutes to the install. 


Lopi Rockport
Blaze King Ashford 25


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 10, 2019)

Its hard to beat an appliance that pays for itself, Same as a hi efficiency washer that pays for itself through lower power and water consumption. Mine paid for itself the first year i used it,after rebates and power savings.  3 years after purchase im about $600 ahead Money in the bank on power savings.  Even if the heat pump eventually conks out ,it has 2 regular elements like a conventional WH so could probably use it in electric only mode. At this point i would definitely buy another one down the road .


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## iron (Jan 10, 2019)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Did you read the reviews?  347 of them on the webpage the heater is on. Avg 4.5 out of 5 stars


i did, but whenever i read reviews, i look for the critical/negative ones to see if there's a pattern. there seems to be for this model - though it's possibly an earlier version of this model.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 10, 2019)

iron said:


> i did, but whenever i read reviews, i look for the critical/negative ones to see if there's a pattern. there seems to be for this model - though it's possibly an earlier version of this model.


I do the same. It does seem like there are a lot more positive reviews for this brand (Rheem) than the GE that i have ,but they also were had a few bad ones until they worked out the bugs.


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## iron (Jan 10, 2019)

so what happened here?
https://www.treehugger.com/sustaina...lug-geospring-heat-pump-hot-water-heater.html

seems like the geosprings model was nixed, but it appears to still be sold in stores???
ETA: limited quantity available. looks hard to find and now it's sold under another name.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 11, 2019)

iron said:


> so what happened here?
> https://www.treehugger.com/sustaina...lug-geospring-heat-pump-hot-water-heater.html
> 
> seems like the geosprings model was nixed, but it appears to still be sold in stores???
> ETA: limited quantity available. looks hard to find and now it's sold under another name.


Low sales killed the beast. I installed mine myself and if it ever needs repairs, ill do that as well.


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## semipro (Jan 11, 2019)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Low sales killed the beast. I installed mine myself and if it ever needs repairs, ill do that as well.


Reportedly, there were quality issues with the original (blue top) units that were made in China.  Supposedly the 2nd gen. (red top) was much improved but it seems the damage to its reputation was done. 
Our Gen 1 unit is still going strong and paid for itself long ago with decreased electricity costs. 
Ours lives in the basement and shares a room with a condensing (ventless) clothes dryer creating a mutualistic pairing - each likes the air exhausted by the other.
Many find the dehumidifying and air filtering aspects of HPWHs to be an advantage rather than a problem.  I've also found that its ability to run off a relatively small generator in a power outage is nice. I also like that scale accumulation from hard water is less because of the lower heating temps of the HPWH as compared to a resistance unit. 
I'd buy another HPWH without hesitation.


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## iron (Jan 11, 2019)

do you see issues with a garage install in the seattle area (maritime climate)? i think in the winter the garage is down to 40 or so, so kind of right at the threshold of heat pump vs electric resistance. in the summer, 60s-70s. not as ideal as an install in FL or AZ.


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## semipro (Jan 11, 2019)

iron said:


> do you see issues with a garage install in the seattle area (maritime climate)? i think in the winter the garage is down to 40 or so, so kind of right at the threshold of heat pump vs electric resistance. in the summer, 60s-70s. not as ideal as an install in FL or AZ.


40 is lower than will work well when in HP mode but you can set it to automatically use the resistance elements when the HP won't work.  It will work very efficiently in the 60-70 degree range.  You'll still probably see a significant benefit in power use over a resistance unit.  A garage is a good place to put one.  Fan noise is a problem for some so there's that too.


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