# Top Auger not working Englander



## Blaino (Dec 7, 2012)

I own a England Stove Works 25- PVDC.   The top auger just kind of stopped working.. So I did a bunch of research online and then started tearing into the stove.  First thing I did was
Step 1- deep clean the entire stove including the exhaust fan and flu. Tested... FAIL
Step 2- Took apart top auger to clean out any clogging in it. The bearings seemed fine. Put it back together tested: FAIL
Step 3- Checked on vacuum hoses, they seem fine so I unplugged the wire from the vacuum switch and bridged the wires together with an auto fuse to bypass the switch. Tested: Motor still doesn't work.
Step 4- While vacuum switch is bypassed I took wires from top auger and plugged them into bottom auger, the bottom auger would turn....pause....tun....pause just like the top auger was suppose to.  Then I took the wires from the bottom auger and plugged them into the top auger.... it was able to turn constantly just like the bottom auger is suppose to.  That leads me to think that the switch board is fine and both motors work, and vacuum switches are working.....
 So yeah I'm stumped and looking for answers as to why my top auger wont turn.

 Blaine


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 7, 2012)

Top auger motor might be binding under load, when you were playing were there pellets in the system or was it empty?


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## CT Pellet (Dec 7, 2012)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Top auger motor might be binding under load, when you were playing were there pellets in the system or was it empty?


 
+1
I have seen this on several 25's. Quite often, the customer will question why the top auger motor (which turns intermittently) will burn out before the bottom one which will turn constantly. The constant start and stop can be as tolling on the motor as constant turning. It may turn freely but when its pushing a spool of pellets the resistance may be enough in its old age to stall it. if this is the case, put the weak motor on the bottom (much less resistance) and the good one up top. This will get you through til the new motor comes in. How old is this motor?


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## Blaino (Dec 7, 2012)

Thanks for the info CT Pellet, that's actually what I ended up doing directly after posting my original question.  The stove has been running now for a good 30 min with no problem.  As for age of the motors I have no idea. Just bought the house 2 months ago and this is the only source of heat.  I probably will not buy a new motor for the current stove.  Hopefully this stove will last me through winter, or until I get a new WOOD stove.  I am a forester and out in the woods 3-5 days a week so bringin home a small load of Black Oak is what I normally do once a week.. Already have about 2-3 cords of wood outside seasoned and ready to go but alas I have a small pellet stove to heat my 1500 sq ft house with 12' ceilings... I CANT WAIT TO BURN WOOD!


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## MCPO (Dec 8, 2012)

Blaino said:


> Thanks for the info CT Pellet, that's actually what I ended up doing directly after posting my original question. The stove has been running now for a good 30 min with no problem. As for age of the motors I have no idea. Just bought the house 2 months ago and this is the only source of heat. I probably will not buy a new motor for the current stove. Hopefully this stove will last me through winter, or until I get a new WOOD stove. I am a forester and out in the woods 3-5 days a week so bringin home a small load of Black Oak is what I normally do once a week.. Already have about 2-3 cords of wood outside seasoned and ready to go but alas I have a small pellet stove to heat my 1500 sq ft house with 12' ceilings... I CANT WAIT TO BURN WOOD!


 
I think most of us here understand.  For some folks wood really IS the best thing but not for those of us who lack the time, or can`t manage the work anymore, can`t live with the the dirty mess, bugs and critters,not to mention the increased dangers of a wood stove, creosote and chimney fires, having to refuel it 3+ times a day. Then you have to deal with the uneven heat output levels.
I burned wood for many years and I can`t say I miss it.


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## bill3rail (Dec 8, 2012)

Order a new motor before you need it!
One will burn out on the coldest night of the year and you stated that it is your only source of heat!

As far as Wood Vs Pellet, I wish I had a wood stove after this hurricane, I would have 20 to 30 cord of wood in my yard if I had a wood stove.  FREE energy Yeah!

Bill


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## imacman (Dec 8, 2012)

Blaino said:


> ...... I probably will not buy a new motor for the current stove. Hopefully this stove will last me through winter.....


 
As mentioned above, you probably should have at least 1 spare on hand....just in case.   Seeing that you aren't going to keep it past the winter, here's a great place to buy a "spare"....only $19.00 plus shipping.  I bought one as an emergency spare....... it runs great and has a MASSIVE stack.

http://www.surpluscenter.com/sort.asp?catname=electric&keyword=GIAR


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 8, 2012)

imacman said:


> As mentioned above, you probably should have at least 1 spare on hand....just in case. Seeing that you aren't going to keep it past the winter, here's a great place to buy a "spare"....only $19.00 plus shipping. I bought one as an emergency spare....... it runs great and has a MASSIVE stack.
> 
> http://www.surpluscenter.com/sort.asp?catname=electric&keyword=GIAR


The motors that are listed are all intermittent duty. The pdvc uses 1rpm these are not.
be careful.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 8, 2012)

Harvey Schneider said:


> The motors that are listed are all intermittent duty. The pdvc uses 1rpm these are not.
> be careful.


 
Frequently the surplus center has 1.0 RPM gear motors ( and lower ) and Pete just gave a link to one of their 3 gear motor sections.  They also are known to also carry continuous duty motors.


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 8, 2012)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Frequently the surplus center has 1.0 RPM gear motors ( and lower ) and Pete just gave a link to one of their 3 gear motor sections. They also are known to also carry continuous duty motors.


They just don't have them at the moment. I was just advocating caution.


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## imacman (Dec 8, 2012)

Harvey Schneider said:


> The motors that are listed are all intermittent duty. The pdvc uses 1rpm these are not.
> be careful.


If used on the upper auger, they should work fine.


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 8, 2012)

imacman said:


> If used on the upper auger, they should work fine.


I agree that an intermittent duty motor would be fine for the upper auger, as long as you don't forget and swap them next year. The big problem is, they aren't 1 rpm. The stove is going to run hotter with a 2 rpm motor in the top auger drive.


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## imacman (Dec 8, 2012)

Harvey Schneider said:


> ....The big problem is, they aren't 1 rpm. The stove is going to run hotter with a 2 rpm motor in the top auger drive.


Not a huge issue....just run the stove at a lower heat setting than normal, or even turn the LFF down a couple of notches.


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## HD41 (Dec 9, 2012)

imacman said:


> If used on the upper auger, they should work fine.


 
2 RPM upper auger motor not the best for 25PDVC but works well on lower auger.

I brought my lower auger motor back to life with WD40 a couple years ago. When I saw a user had installed a 2 RPM motor from Surplus Center for $18.95; I purchased a pair of 2 RPM CCW motors as backup even though my original motors were still working. The original Merkle Koroff motor actually turns at 1.3 RPM.

I found when used on the upper auger the 2 RPM motor would overfeed (too much heat) on the lowest setting even with lowest three button feed setting. Was OK for colder weather or emergency but I moved it to the lower auger and this works fine. I'm keeping the original Merkle Koroff motor as spare for the upper auger.


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## slvrblkk (Dec 9, 2012)

Harvey Schneider said:


> I agree that an intermittent duty motor would be fine for the upper auger, as long as you don't forget and swap them next year. The big problem is, they aren't 1 rpm. The stove is going to run hotter with a 2 rpm motor in the top auger drive.


 
My old pdvc Merkle auger motors were listed as "intermittent" on both motors. Does anyone know if it still says that on the newer ones. My pdvc was an '06.


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## jtakeman (Dec 9, 2012)

slvrblkk said:


> My old pdvc Merkle auger motors were listed as "intermittent" on both motors. Does anyone know if it still says that on the newer ones. My pdvc was an '06.


 
I don't think the Merkles are rated for continuous duty. Link has spec's and still says intermittent duty cycle.

\\http://merklekorff.thomasnet.com/it...actional-gearmotors-thermally-protected/8212?


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## slvrblkk (Dec 9, 2012)

That's interesting......I thought someone was selling Merkles on ebay that were "continuous" duty.....might have been Mr. Munson.....don't see any listed right now.....


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## jtakeman (Dec 9, 2012)

Maybe he super charged it to last forever?


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 9, 2012)

I have been searching online, and I am surprised to find that virtually all of the small gear motors are rated for intermittent duty.


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## slvrblkk (Dec 9, 2012)

Csh Inc. has continuous duty....I believe Gleason Avery too


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## imacman (Dec 9, 2012)

slvrblkk said:


> Csh Inc. has continuous duty....I believe Gleason Avery too


No, GA are also listed as "intermittent" duty.  The ones listed in CSH are the only ones I've seen that are listed as "continuous".   Funny, though, as they don't look to be any different than any other.


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 9, 2012)

slvrblkk said:


> Csh Inc. has continuous duty....I believe Gleason Avery too


Copied from Gleason Avery web page:

*MOTOR CONSTRUCTION*​*Gearcase*: Zinc die cast​*Lubrication*: Grease filled​*Gears*: Hardened steel and phenolic​*Bearings*: Spherical​*Mounting*: All positions​*Rotation*: CW facing shaft​*Shaft*: 3/8" diameter x 1" long with flat, hardened​*Type*: Shaded pole​*Protection*: Impedance or thermally protected *​*Hz*: 60 or 50​*Duty*: Intermittent ​*Bearings*: Self-lubricating bronze sleeve​*Insulation*: Class B​UL and CSA ​*Motor Leads*: 6" from bobbin​​​I looked at CSH INC and couldn't find gearmotors. The C-frame motors they have are all designed for air over operation for ventilators. The cooling air is how they get their continuous rating.


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## slvrblkk (Dec 9, 2012)

Thats what I think is funny too....they have similar stacks to the Merkle and Gleasons...I wonder if the gears are different?

On a side note...the ones at Surplus Sales have HUGE stacks...gonna pick up another spare...they are too cheap not to.


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## slvrblkk (Dec 9, 2012)

Harvey Schneider said:


> Copied from Gleason Avery web page:
> 
> *MOTOR CONSTRUCTION*
> *Gearcase*: Zinc die cast
> ...


 
Look under "auger motor"

Click to enlarge
*

*​PV003 Auger motor by Multi Products of Wisconsin USA

115 Volts
SP/Open
.5 Amp
1 RPM
Continuous duty, Impedance Protected
CCW rotation, viewing from rear
3 in. body
Skeleton frame
1 in. x 3/8 in. shaft


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 9, 2012)

Gleason Avery requires that you ask via their application link to state the duty cycle you need fill out the form here:  http://www.gleasonavery.com/adforms/index.htm


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## imacman (Dec 9, 2012)

Harvey Schneider said:


> ​​I looked at CSH INC and couldn't find gearmotors......


 
Here's the link to their motors.  Click the green "details" button.  If cooling air is the reason they are listed as "continuous", I don't see any fan on that motor.

http://www.cshincorporated.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=v003&x=0&y=0


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 9, 2012)

slvrblkk said:


> Look under "auger motor"


I searched under pellet and corn stove:
http://www.gleasonavery.com/catalog/pellet-corn-stove-motors.html

Edit:
I went back and searched under _auger motor _and got the same page.


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 9, 2012)

imacman said:


> Here's the link to their motors. Click the green "details" button. If cooling air is the reason they are listed as "continuous", I don't see any fan on that motor.
> 
> http://www.cshincorporated.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=v003&x=0&y=0


I went to the Multiproducts spec sheet:
http://www.multiproducts.com/pdfs/Spec_9901A.pdf
They don't have any mention of duty cycle. That is not proof that it is continuous duty, but it doesn't rule it out. The stack looks like it might be thicker than the original motor in my stove and it is described as impedance protected on the CSH web page.


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## slvrblkk (Dec 9, 2012)

slvrblkk said:


> Look under "auger motor"
> 
> 
> ​Click to enlarge
> ...


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 9, 2012)

PV003 Auger motor by Multi Products of Wisconsin USA this motor has the required high speed cooling fan shaft for air over operation ....  see slvrblkk's post  https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/top-auger-not-working-englander.100559/#post-1290342


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 9, 2012)

slvrblkk said:


> 1 RPM
> Continuous duty, Impedance Protected
> CCW rotation, viewing from rear


Now how did I miss that?


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## slvrblkk (Dec 9, 2012)

Harvey Schneider said:


> Now how did I miss that?



Its Sunday Lol


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 9, 2012)

slvrblkk said:


> Its Sunday Lol


I'm retired, every day is Sunday.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 9, 2012)

slvrblkk said:


> Its Sunday Lol


 
I'm retired as well and it is indeed Sunday neither are valid excuses, especially if it is right there in picture form as well as hen scratchings .


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## pkeaola (Dec 31, 2013)

Blaino said:


> I own a England Stove Works 25- PVDC.   The top auger just kind of stopped working.. So I did a bunch of research online and then started tearing into the stove.  First thing I did was
> Step 1- deep clean the entire stove including the exhaust fan and flu. Tested... FAIL
> Step 2- Took apart top auger to clean out any clogging in it. The bearings seemed fine. Put it back together tested: FAIL
> Step 3- Checked on vacuum hoses, they seem fine so I unplugged the wire from the vacuum switch and bridged the wires together with an auto fuse to bypass the switch. Tested: Motor still doesn't work.
> ...


blaine can u please tell me ... when you say you bridged the wires together with an auto fuse ? do you mean that you connected the top wire that goes to the vacuum switch and ran it directly to the board for power with a fuse in between the motor and the board?im trying to figure out the same thing ,as i just bought this stove and i m having same problem ., i am trying to figure out if its the vacuum switch?i am able to get the the top auger to work if i plug it directly to a power supply with a hot and a neutral but it wont work if i put pellets in the hopper. .in cleaned the shaft auger and it runs fine but as soon as i put it in it wont , again i am a novice i just dont understand what you mean by bridging ?do you leave the other wire that comes out of the vacuum switch still going to the board ?thanks


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## pkeaola (Dec 31, 2013)

hi all i am having an issue with top auger , i did all the cleaning etc. it wont run at all when connected to the leads to the vacuum switch but when i plug into lower leads or directly to power outlet it runs fine! how can i tell if the vacuum switch is bad ?blaine had mentioned that he bridged the the wire that goes into the vacuum switch from the motor , but im not sure whta he means /does the other lead that continues into the board remain connected ?with a fuse in between?i by passed the control board altogether and used switches for each blower seperately then for lower auger since it runs continuous and a switch for the igniter finally a switch for the the top auger motor with a speed adjustment switch for the blower motor and top auger but if i put even the slightest amount of pellets the top auger wont turn ?so i guess its the top auger as someone mentioned above i will replace the top motor from the surplus center but which motor do i buy?


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 31, 2013)

pkeaola said:


> hi all i am having an issue with top auger , i did all the cleaning etc. it wont run at all when connected to the leads to the vacuum switch but when i plug into lower leads or directly to power outlet it runs fine! how can i tell if the vacuum switch is bad ?blaine had mentioned that he bridged the the wire that goes into the vacuum switch from the motor , but im not sure whta he means /does the other lead that continues into the board remain connected ?with a fuse in between?i by passed the control board altogether and used switches for each blower seperately then for lower auger since it runs continuous and a switch for the igniter finally a switch for the the top auger motor with a speed adjustment switch for the blower motor and top auger but if i put even the slightest amount of pellets the top auger wont turn ?so i guess its the top auger as someone mentioned above i will replace the top motor from the surplus center but which motor do i buy?


If you are using a fuse that has blades compatible with the faston connectors that normally go on the vacuum switch, replace the switch with the fuse. If the motor runs, the control board is okay. 
The problem then is either the switch is bad or the vacuum level is not adequate. the latter could be either a clogged hose, a leak of air into the fire box or a dirty stove.


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## pkeaola (Dec 31, 2013)

Harvey Schneider said:


> If you are using a fuse that has blades compatible with the faston connectors that normally go on the vacuum switch, replace the switch with the fuse. If the motor runs, the control board is okay.
> The problem then is either the switch is bad or the vacuum level is not adequate. the latter could be either a clogged hose, a leak of air into the fire box or a dirty stove.


thank you so very much , ill give it a try i have the englander stove so i ran a fresh air intake and didnt have it set up when i initially started the stove ..... so ill try your method first if the motor still doesnt run i guess it must be the motor although it seems to run perfect and not get hot , just doesnt run while plugged into the board error code 2 and then 1 and shuts the stove off thanks again most insightful


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 31, 2013)

pkeaola said:


> thank you so very much , ill give it a try i have the englander stove so i ran a fresh air intake and didnt have it set up when i initially started the stove ..... so ill try your method first if the motor still doesnt run i guess it must be the motor although it seems to run perfect and not get hot , just doesnt run while plugged into the board error code 2 and then 1 and shuts the stove off thanks again most insightful


Since you have already determined that the motor runs, that isn't the problem. What is left is the control board and the vaccum detection system. Reread my previous post.


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## pkeaola (Dec 31, 2013)

got cha  right will do thank you for taking the time , very nice to know that this place exists and there are pps like yourself that are knowledgablethanks again


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