# Adding home EV charging  ?s



## EbS-P (Oct 16, 2021)

It is likely that I will be getting a Tesla In January.  I have been debating the best way to add at home charging to my home.  Should I go the cheapest route now and just at a single 120v 20 amp outlet? Is 120v charging even a option I should consider or should I plan for the future of more than 1 EV and run a circuit capable of charging multiple EVs at once.  Should I consider a Tesla wall charger to the tune of 550$.   What would you do?  

Relevant Details 

No garage 

Lots of kids oldest is 10

200 amp service entrance at back of house opposite where we will be parking in the front of the house 

1 unused 30A double pole breakers in main box. (It fed a water heater)  and the wire runs about to middle of house through crawl space 

Exterior 70A subpannel (right next to main) with open spots 
One exterior 15 A outlet on front porch

One 20A single pole unused in interior sub panel (does not have any empty spots) with wire running to corner of house nearest where we will park.  

Driving mileage is about 100-150 miles a week. 

Thanks in advance for any feedback 
Evan


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## peakbagger (Oct 16, 2021)

Tesla states 2 to 4 miles per hour of charge with  120 VAC 20 Amp charger. So assuming you have 12 hours of charging overnight, that is 24 to 48 miles per night. So spread your miles over 7 days and you have potential range of 168 to 336 miles per week which meets your requirements. That said take one long trip on a weekend and you may be short overnight charging. I have Rav 4 Hybrid so all I do is buy some gas but with your Tesla you are out of luck.

The 30 AMP dual pole breaker is going to give you double the charge. over night.

Looks like 240 @50 Amps is the largest charge rate, 30 miles per, hour so running a dedicated circuit to the driveway from the 70 Amp to the sub panel is the fastest option. If you are paying an electrician to do the work, my guess is the 50 Amp circuit from the main will not be that much more expensive than extending the 30 Amp circuit.  

Keep in mind there is federal tax credit, It covers 30% of the costs with a maximum $1,000 credit, and there may be other state local and utility credits to reduce the cost further. Make sure that you also check to see if there are any special rates for charging EVs (whihc may require a separate meter).


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## semipro (Oct 16, 2021)

Based on our experience using both 120VAC 15A and 240VAC 50A circuits for charging, I wouldn't go with anything smaller than the latter.  
You'd probably be surprised how many times you'll plug the car in to charge only to unplug 30 min. later when you want to take an unplanned trip.
I'd also consider installing an SAE 1772 EVSE and using an adapter rather than installing a dedicated Tesla EVSE.
Running the circuit out of the subpanel seems to be your easiest option if you go 50 AMP or more. 
Consider also that you can either hardwire the EVSE or install a standard receptacle and plug in the EVSE using a pigtail.  A NEMA 14-50 is a standard electric dryer outlet and can be used for RVs , welders, etc. 
Our EVSE is connected using a plug and a NEMA 14-50 and is also quickly detachable that we can take it on trips if needed.  This allows us to plug the EVSE into a dryer outlet at remote locations (e.g. family/friends) for charging.


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## EbS-P (Oct 16, 2021)

semipro said:


> 240VAC 50A circuits for charging, I wouldn't go with anything smaller than the latter.


I agree that this is the best solution.  

While we are pretty environmentally conscious getting an EV just never was a reality for us.  We will soon be a family of 7.    My work schedule really only has me out for 4-5 hours max 4 days a week working from home the rest.       

So if want to change 3 EVs what should i be running?  Probably a separate 60-80 amp sub panel?   I think this is a reality for us in the next decade. 

I am only 2.5 miles from a super charging station. So that is kinda figuring into my thoughts process. 

 I have access to the basement ceiling and rim joist now  in the area the wiring will penetrate so I’m not opposed to future proofing so I don’t have to pull drywall later.


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## woodgeek (Oct 16, 2021)

If 240V and 50A is too much (e.g. if you want three independent circuits), then I think 240V and 30A or even 240V and 20A is fine.  The 20A example is 16A continuous duty (80% rating), and 240Vx16A = 4 kW.  This is still 3-4x faster than 120V and 10-12A.  240V and 30A is 24A continuous, which is 6 kW, which will charge a Tesla from empty in 12 hours or so.

There are also EVSEs that have two heads and they will sequencially charge two EVs from a single circuit.   Never seen on in the wild.

I charged my 60 kWh Bolt EV for year at 6 kW and it was never a problem.

I agree that 120V charging is a JOKE and not worth the effort to set up.

One thing to remember: 120V charging is often less efficient that 240V charging, bc the EVSE is set up to use 240.  Add something like 10% to the cost to charge.

My buddy just upgraded from a LEAF Gen2 to a Model 3, and he is just gonna use the portable with the 50A outlet.


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## ABMax24 (Oct 16, 2021)

Which Tesla model are you looking at? The reason I ask is the standard range Model 3 can only charge up to 32A or a 40A breaker. That being said I would be tempted to install the Tesla charger, as it can accept up to a 60A breaker for 48A of continuous charging.

The other reason to go with the Tesla charger is they have added functionality to share load between up to 4 chargers, so you could program it to split the power off a 100amp panel between 3 vehicles, which would allow a full 48 amps to a vehicle if only 1 was plugged in or would split the power to 3 vehicles at 26.6 amps each. I believe you can go up to a total of 190 amps between all 4 chargers. 






						Gen 3 Wall Connector Power Sharing
					

Power sharing is a firmware feature that allows up to six Gen 3 Wall Connectors to share power and charge multiple vehicles at once.




					www.tesla.com
				








						Load Sharing - TESLA Wall Connector
					

Subtitles are available when you click the 'CC' icon within the video.




					www.tesla.com


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## semipro (Oct 16, 2021)

EbS-P said:


> I agree that this is the best solution.
> 
> While we are pretty environmentally conscious getting an EV just never was a reality for us.  We will soon be a family of 7.    My work schedule really only has me out for 4-5 hours max 4 days a week working from home the rest.
> 
> ...


While you have access I think that installing another (maybe 100 amp) subpanel near where your EVSEs will be installed would make sense.  While you may not have the capacity in your existing main panel for a 100 amp breaker I believe the building code is okay with using a smaller breaker to feed into a larger subpanel - maybe 50 A for now.  This might be upsized later if you need more EV charging capacity and your main panel can handle it. 
It seems also that if that many EVs are in your future you may need to upgrade the capacity of your service drop and/or add another main panel -- maybe...  That would all depend on how many EVs you need to charge at once and whether you go with something like the Tesla shared EVSE that @ABMax24 mentioned.


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## EbS-P (Oct 16, 2021)

ABMax24 said:


> Which Tesla model are you looking at? The reason I ask is the standard range Model 3 can only charge up to 32A or a 40A breaker. That being said I would be tempted to install the Tesla charger, as it can accept up to a 60A breaker for 48A of continuous charging.
> 
> The other reason to go with the Tesla charger is they have added functionality to share load between up to 4 chargers, so you could program it to split the power off a 100amp panel between 3 vehicles, which would allow a full 48 amps to a vehicle if only 1 was plugged in or would split the power to 3 vehicles at 26.6 amps each. I believe you can go up to a total of 190 amps between all 4 chargers.
> 
> ...


Very good info.  It will be a used X.  At 500$ a wall charger man that’s more than a years worth of charging for me.  Seems like limiting charging rate per vehicle at the vehicle interface would save lots of money.  

It kinda feels like that once you choose Tesla it becomes much more unlikely that you will choose an EV from another manufacturer.  Kinda feels like apple. Once you have two apple devices you are too far in to the unified ecosystem to jump ship to android or PC.  

Making a plan for multiple Tesla wall chargers makes since.  


semipro said:


> While you have access I think that installing another (maybe 100 amp) subpanel near where your EVSEs will be installed would make sense. While you may not have the capacity in your existing main panel for a 100 amp breaker


Yep. That’s the answer pull heavy enough wire to run a 100A panel with what ever breaker I can fit. now and deal with main panel modifications at which ever time.


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## woodgeek (Oct 16, 2021)

You can put in multiple 240V plugs at say 30A breakers, use the Tesla portable charger and still happily charge EVs from other makes on the other outlets.  No lock in.

Use case: you might buy a cheap EV for a teen driver.  Not gonna put a teen in a Tesla


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## ABMax24 (Oct 16, 2021)

EbS-P said:


> Very good info.  It will be a used X.  At 500$ a wall charger man that’s more than a years worth of charging for me.  Seems like limiting charging rate per vehicle at the vehicle interface would save lots of money.
> 
> It kinda feels like that once you choose Tesla it becomes much more unlikely that you will choose an EV from another manufacturer.  Kinda feels like apple. Once you have two apple devices you are too far in to the unified ecosystem to jump ship to android or PC.
> 
> Making a plan for multiple Tesla wall chargers makes since.



I do agree that Tesla is much like Apple, they want to be the only provider of service and accessories for their vehicles. Unfortunately though today there isn't a whole lot of choice, no other car maker comes close to the Tesla's capabilities.


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## EbS-P (Oct 16, 2021)

ABMax24 said:


> I do agree that Tesla is much like Apple, they want to be the only provider of service and accessories for their vehicles. Unfortunately though today there isn't a whole lot of choice, no other car maker comes close to the Tesla's capabilities.


I agree their integrated products are the best but that’s comes with limitations like the nearest service center being two hours away.


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## ABMax24 (Oct 16, 2021)

EbS-P said:


> I agree their integrated products are the best but that’s comes with limitations like the nearest service center being two hours away.



That's not terrible, up here the nearest supercharger is 5hrs away, and the service center is also 5hrs away.

Safe to say I'm not looking for  an EV just yet.


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## EbS-P (Oct 16, 2021)

woodgeek said:


> You can put in multiple 240V plugs at say 30A breakers, use the Tesla portable charger and still happily charge EVs from other makes on the other outlets.  No lock in.
> 
> Use case: you might buy a cheap EV for a teen driver.  Not gonna put a teen in a Tesla


That’s what I’m trying to plan for future proofing.  I wonder what the market will be for 10 year old Tesla 3s.  Being able to record  yours teens driving footage is an interesting concept.   Safety wise I think they have a good safety record.  Collision avoidance is a selling point.  I can’t believe my parents let me drive a 63 MG midget for a year as my to and from school /store car.   I did graduate up to a 1982 Volvo 240DL from the MG.  But my mom got the car with air bags.  Argument has been made you should put the most inexperienced drive in the safest car.


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## EbS-P (Oct 16, 2021)

ABMax24 said:


> That's not terrible, up here the nearest supercharger is 5hrs away, and the service center is also 5hrs away.
> 
> Safe to say I'm not looking for  an EV just yet.


Agreed.  I was looking this is just too good a deal to pass up.


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## jebatty (Oct 17, 2021)

Unless you regularly are maxing out your charge range, I think a 240V/20A circuit is very adequate for a Tesla, and with an adapter will also be good for other EVs that take a J1772 plug.  We have a Tesla Model 3, Dual Motor, AWD. Charging is from a 20A-240V circuit in our garage. Outlet is a standard L5-20R which we had in our garage, and we have a 16A EVSE with L5-20P to J1772 and adapter to the Tesla plug. If you need to install a sub-panel in your garage, 100A would be adequate for up to 5 20A circuits or two  40A circuits or one 40A circuit and two 20A circuits.

We usually charge to 240 miles, which is very generous for daily driving needs. This is my wife's car, and when she's home for the day she plugs in to the Tesla and the car is always ready to go in the morning for the next day needs. We may travel 2-3 times/month to visit family in Minneapolis/St.Paul, distance 180 miles, we also have two Tesla Super Chargers on the route, one 40 miles from our home and the other 115 miles from our home, and also several Super Charging stations in the metro area to charge as needed for driving in the metro area and the return trip home. Tesla also has two service centers in the metro area. 

And we have have Tesla Mobile Service available, which we have used once for a recall to check the shoulder belts bolts (no charge), and for which we have now scheduled for a brake service check/lubrication and cabin filter replacement. We have had the Tesla nearly three years (32,000 miles), and this is the only service the Tesla has required.


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## RustyShackleford (Oct 17, 2021)

First off, congrats on your upcoming EV purchase.   We got a Leaf a couple years ago and love it; two pleasant surprises, fast as hell (and I can only imagine what a Tesla would be like) and virtually zero maintenance.   I plan to keep my '06 Subaru Outback going a few more years and then hopefully available vehicle range and charging infratsructure will make it possible to live without an ICE vehicle and I'll buy a Cybertruck or something.

I'll join the chorus here saying to forget about relying on a 120vac charging circuit.

As far as using your existing 240vac/30amp circuit, do they even make EVSEs that work off that low an amperage ?   I installed a 40amp Clipper Creek unit (with a 50amp breaker and 8awg wire in conduit) for a little future-proofing even though the Leaf can only handle 32 amps.  If you do your own install, be aware you can generally use lighter-gauge wire if you put it in conduit (and conduit is fun).

Finally, @semipro suggested installing a standard 220vac receptacle and plugging into that.   I briefly considered that before realizing that left me with two poor choices: leave the portable charging cord plugged into the receptacle at home and thus have no way of charging away from home (e.g. at a friend's house) or plug that portable cord in to the receptacle whenever I get home.   Not only would the latter be a hassle, but every time I connect my car to the hard-wired EVSE in the rain, I thank my stars that I did it this way; of course, if you'd be in a garage, that might not apply.


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## EbS-P (Oct 17, 2021)

RustyShackleford said:


> Not only would the latter be a hassle, but every time I connect my car to the hard-wired EVSE in the rain,


It will be outside. That is a good point.  


RustyShackleford said:


> two poor choices: leave the portable charging cord plugged into the receptacle at home and thus have no way of charging away from home (e.g. at a friend's house) or plug that portable cord in to the receptacle whenever I get home.


And another….


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## woodgeek (Oct 17, 2021)

Meh.  Used 240V 16A portable EVSEs can be had CHEAP.   You can have one in your trunk AND in your garage. I have a couple extra sitting in my garage right now.  And they're fast enough for nearly every EV need (at 4kW).  No need to spend >$500 for a fancy unit any more.

Many new ones on amazon for $200:  Amazon product

Or $130+shipping new on EBay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/124915062325?hash=item1d15849635:g:gIgAAOSws~phFpej

Note, these are 120V/240V dual voltage units.  Many of the 120V units shipped with EVs can be used at 240V and 16A, read the label.

My friends with a tesla have said that fender benders can be expensive.... all those sensors can be damaged with a new driver in a low speed impact or scrape.  And then they need to be replaced and recalibrated a service center.  I can find a safe non-Tesla EV for my teen drivers (who learned on a 2014 LEAF and a 2015 Volt, respectively).  Both vehicles had some cosmetic dinging from the experience.


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## DBoon (Oct 17, 2021)

I am happily charging my Bolt on a 240V/20A circuit using a TurboCord. It provides about 3.3 kW/h. I used to use a 240V/40A charger and it was faster (for overnight rate charging) and that was nice, but a lot can be said for getting started (inexpensively) with a 3.3 kW/h charger. 

Depending on the length of the wiring run, you may want to price out the copper cable for the charger before you make a decision. 50A rated cable is running about $4/ft right now (per my electrician).


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## semipro (Oct 17, 2021)

RustyShackleford said:


> Finally, @semipro suggested installing a standard 220vac receptacle and plugging into that. I briefly considered that before realizing that left me with two poor choices: leave the portable charging cord plugged into the receptacle at home and thus have no way of charging away from home (e.g. at a friend's house) or plug that portable cord in to the receptacle whenever I get home. Not only would the latter be a hassle, but every time I connect my car to the hard-wired EVSE in the rain, I thank my stars that I did it this way; of course, if you'd be in a garage, that might not apply.


Yeah, mine is located out of the weather.  That said, I have yet to unplug/plug it to take the EVSE with me for remote charging but it's a nice option should I chose to do so.  My 50 amp oulet is weather protected and GFCI (by code) also so not a big safety concern.


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## semipro (Oct 17, 2021)

All you guys saying that the lower power EVSEs are workable must be much better planners than my wife and me.  At least weekly I'm thankful for the faster charging our unit provides.  My wife comes home from work in the BEV and then we decide we want to go somewhere in it.  
I can only imagine that if @EbS-P actually has 3 BEVs in the driveway that the one with the most charge will be the one next taken.


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## semipro (Oct 17, 2021)

jebatty said:


> And we have have Tesla Mobile Service available, which we have used once for a recall to check the shoulder belts bolts (no charge), and for which we have now scheduled for a brake service check/lubrication and cabin filter replacement. We have had the Tesla nearly three years (32,000 miles), and this is the only service the Tesla has required.


It's really interesting how Tesla is redefining vehicle purchasing, ownership, maintenance, and mobility.  The similarities to smartphones are many -- ownership/leasing, not easily replaceable batteries, over-the-air feature/security updates, restricted serviceability, packed with sensors, etc.


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## woodgeek (Oct 18, 2021)

semipro said:


> All you guys saying that the lower power EVSEs are workable must be much better planners than my wife and me.  At least weekly I'm thankful for the faster charging our unit provides.  My wife comes home from work in the BEV and then we decide we want to go somewhere in it.
> I can only imagine that if @EbS-P actually has 3 BEVs in the driveway that the one with the most charge will be the one next taken.


It just comes down to if the BEV has enough range for your daily driving.  If so, 4kW overnight is close to 50 kWh, or 150-200 miles.  Do you often drive >150 miles per day in a BEV without it being a roadtrip?  If so, then DO upgrade to a higher power EVSE.  Otherwise 4 kW is pretty OK.

OP's plan of one higher power, and two smaller seems like a good one.


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## mar13 (Oct 18, 2021)

I didn't read the entire thread (a lot of quick interest from the crowd!), but your "no garage" comment made me think of a car port. I read that a solar car port benefits from the 26% tax credit.  I'm pondering the feasibility of this for the house, even though I don't yet have an EV.


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## EbS-P (Oct 18, 2021)

semipro said:


> It's really interesting how Tesla is redefining vehicle purchasing, ownership, maintenance, and mobility.  The similarities to smartphones are many -- ownership/leasing, not easily replaceable batteries, over-the-air feature/security updates, restricted serviceability, packed with sensors, etc.


I’m not super keen on that.   I’m not a gear head or an auto enthusiast but I like the idea of some aspects of being to maintain my own vehicl (and phone).  First car was an MG that says a lot.   Its Really not replacing a vehicle  either.  We every summer drive 600-1000 miles in a day, two to four days a year.  Kids all fall asleep you don’t dare stop that car.  So if the batterys not charged i would have options.   i almost have the mini van paid off and the lifetime warranty they sold me 4 days after the third baby arrived (a couple weeks early) I am bound and determined to get every cent i can out of that company.


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## EbS-P (Oct 19, 2021)

mar13 said:


> I didn't read the entire thread (a lot of quick interest from the crowd!), but your "no garage" comment made me think of a car port. I read that a solar car port benefits from the 26% tax credit.  I'm pondering the feasibility of this for the house, even though I don't yet have an EV.


We have too many trees ( half aren’t mine) for solar.  It will parked in a driveway.  I have keep trying /wanting  to make solar an option is just isn’t a good one for us


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## EbS-P (Oct 22, 2021)

Would you feel comfortable running a 20A 240V  gfci outlet on 12-2 +ground and not running a neutral?  

The wire is already run from the sub panel.


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## woodgeek (Oct 22, 2021)

EbS-P said:


> Would you feel comfortable running a 20A 240V  gfci outlet on 12-2 +ground and not running a neutral?
> 
> The wire is already run from the sub panel.


I wired up a friends outlet like that for his LEAF.  He already had three wires (2+GND) running 120V 20A, and I just changed the breaker and the outlet.  Voila: 3.8 kW.  

The EVSE plugging into doesn't have a neutral.  Its a 240V three prong plug.


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## woodgeek (Oct 23, 2021)

EbS-P said:


> Would you feel comfortable running a 20A 240V  gfci outlet on 12-2 +ground and not running a neutral?
> 
> The wire is already run from the sub panel.


Deets:

The EVSE (like I linked to above) are dual voltage 120V/240V units with a 15A 120V male plug on them.   Designed to work at 16A and 240V.  I did NOT want to put a 15A 120V outlet on the outside of a house that was wired for 240V, bc obv someone could come up and plug in a hedge trimmer and blow it up (or worse).  Soooo.  I installed the correct NEMA outlet for a 240V and 20 A service.  I then wired up an adapter for the EVSE to convert the standard 120V male plug to a 240V 20A male plug.  And ziptied the adapter to the EVSE.


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## EbS-P (Feb 19, 2022)

Quick update. 

EV delivery should be in a day or two.   I’m 75% certain it has transferrable free lifetime supercharging.  If that’s the case the plan is to charge 120V at home and hit up the super charging when I can or need too.    If it’s not free,  20 amp GFCI 240 breaker and and a 6-20R receptacle.  Is the cheapest way to charge using the mobile charger.  

I watched all the you tube videos on how to cram car seats in to an EV if you are a family of 7.   It’s just like wood stove Tetris except you can’t leave one of them out to load next time.   

Evan


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## RustyShackleford (Feb 19, 2022)

I'm a little confused by this talk of a 20amp 240vac outlet.   Our Leaf ("the Ford Escort of EVs") can make use of 32amps of charging current, so I'm surprised there's EVs that use that much less.   Even if there are, there's "future proofing"; that's why I installed a 40amp charger (on a 50 amp circuit).

Also, having not read whole thread, I'm not crazy about the idea of an outlet, as opposed to a dedicated charger (that is hardwired and has a J1772 plug), IF it's an outside environment, so you might be standing on wet ground, in the rain, plugging the thing in.


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## EbS-P (Feb 19, 2022)

RustyShackleford said:


> I'm a little confused by this talk of a 20amp 240vac outlet.   Our Leaf ("the Ford Escort of EVs") can make use of 32amps of charging current, so I'm surprised there's EVs that use that much less.   Even if there are, there's "future proofing"; that's why I installed a 40amp charger (on a 50 amp circuit).
> 
> Also, having not read whole thread, I'm not crazy about the idea of an outlet, as opposed to a dedicated charger (that is hardwired and has a J1772 plug), IF it's an outside environment, so you might be standing on wet ground, in the rain, plugging the thing in.


#12 2+ ground is already run.  Only need 8’ to get to the exterior wall of the house.  Gfci is a must for me.  It’s not that the EV can’t charge faster it’s in busy and cheap just need something ASAP.   On closer inspection today while doing some other electrical work I realized my main 200 panel is or is very close to not being able to accommodate another 60-90amps.  70A and 90A sub panels, Ac, 60 A heat strip, 60 amp steam shower the. All the 240 appliances. Open slots but didn’t do load calc.     

I totally agree a new high amp circuit is the best way.  Just not ready to head down that path yet.  What’s the bare minimum I need.  180 miles a week.  3 miles per hour charge.  Needs 60 hours a week plugged in to 120v. That’s doable. 7 pm-7am 5 days a week.  Doesn’t work out swap out to a 240v,  2+1 receptacle and 240v gfci breaker.  120$ fix.  Or get a real charger 600$. 

If it has free charging I live 10 minutes from the super charging station and drive by it regularly with extra time in my schedule 3-4 times a week.  None Of this might matter.


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## peakbagger (Feb 19, 2022)

Home charging is a can of worms, there is a SAE standard for Level 1 and Level 2 charge plugs but on board equipment for EVs and PHEVs are not standardized. My Toyota PHEV is limited to an onboard 3300 KW AC to DC Converter. Most of the world uses 240 volt house current so just like computers and a lot of equipment is insulated and designed for 240 volt AC input. The US is a special case which uses 120VAC. In many cases the cord is exactly the same as 240 cord except that there is plug adaptor pig tale that plugs into a standard 120 VAC outlet.  There is no need for a box on the wall, the cord that came with the car is designed to plug into a standard wall outlet. The charger senses the voltage and only draws 12 amps as a typical double straight blade outlet is fed from a 15 AMP breaker. If the cord plugs into the wall, it has to plug into a GCFI outlet if its in a potentially wet area like a garage.  This is called a Level 1 charger. so 12 AMPs multiplied by 120 volts is charge rate of 1440 watt hours or 1.44KWh. Some companies sell level 1 UL rated chargers that are permanently wired into the wall and may be fed by a 20 AMP circuit (or larger), so they can draw 16.6 amps or 2 KWhr.  They usually have wireless capability to be turned on and off remotely. If you are in area that has off peak rates its one way to take advantage of them. My Toyota can do the same thing by a Toyota Ap (which has a monthly fee).

Various folks and companies figured out that most of these EVs were designed for 240 Volts so they came up with level 2 chargers. They operate at 240 volts. This is usually where the AC to DC converter capacity comes into play. On my Toyota, it can only handle 3300 watts so divide by 240Volts and the most amperage it can draw is 13.75 amps which is above the rated continuous load on 15 Amp circuit, so I bumped up to a 20 Amp circuit. I happen to have a 50 Amp welding outlet near my garage panel so it might make sense to just plug into the welding outlet, but the welding outlet does not have a GFI breaker. Just because the plug is rated for 50 Amp doesn't mean I charge any faster as the AC to DC converter is the limiting factor. For another 5 to 10 grand if I bought the deluxe version Prime the AC to DC converter is 6600 watts. In my case I bought a UL rated 240 Volt charge cord and plugged it into a 240 VAC 20 Amp outlet fed from a GFCI breaker. My battery pack is 18.1 KWh so I can charge up the battery from flat in about 5.4 hours. Some folks have just bastardized the regular 120 VAC charge cord by building or buying an illegal 120VAC to 240VAC plug adaptor. Unfortunately most of the charge cords are only listed for 120 VAC (even though the same charge cord with different plug is used elsewhere on 240 VAC). The difference is if you burn your garage down, its unlisted equipment if used at 240 VAC. Note that the actual plugs that plug into the outlet have temperature sensors in them to detect if there is a problem with the internals of the wall plug. If a bootleg adaptor is used, the sensor will not detect a problem with the outlet as it will be a couple of inches away.  The alternative is buy the more expensive UL rated hardwired charger hooked to a dedicated circuit. It has a GFCI inside.

Tesla sells a home charger that plugs into a 50 amp dryer plug. Some of the installations skipped the GFCI but the codes have changed that they now need an outlet fed by GFCI.

There is also the case where if someone is plugging into a real outdoor outlet without a roof over it that the outlet has to be equipped with a rated cover designed to shield the connected plug in the outlet. The old fashioned hinged cover that shields the outlet from rain are not adequate as with some thing plugged into it, its not waterproof.

Its a moving target and even electricians are confused.


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## NoGoodAtScreenNames (Feb 19, 2022)

Not to hijack the thread, but I have a 20 amp / 240 volt non GFCI outlet in my garage that I plug my portable charger into for our Prius and soon to be RAV4 Prime. It’s not out in the weather but the floor often gets wet in the garage from melting snow from the cars. The charger has a GFCI built into it and it is always plugged in. Does the breaker also need to be GFCI if it’s in the plug? I suppose if something went bad before the charger we wouldn’t have the protection, but I’ve also read that doubling up GFCIs in series can be problematic.


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## peakbagger (Feb 20, 2022)

IMO (and I am not an electrician) is that your installation is grandfathered but not in compliance with current code which was changed to include all outdoor plugs including 240volt. If it was hard wired into the panel with no plug and outlet that you are covered.   

Good pick on the Prime  . If its a SE, the 20 Amp plug is fine but if you are buying the XE or XLE and want faster charging you can go with higher amperage circuit since you have the larger AC to DC converter. I am active on the Rav 4 Prime forum. Get ready for the inevitable cold weather fog horn mystery unless they have solved it and the "how do I quiet the choir of out of tune angels" question. Other than those annoyances, I am very impressed at the overall package. GIve me a PM if you want to talk factory tow hitches as I installed mine on my own.


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## EbS-P (Feb 20, 2022)

NoGoodAtScreenNames said:


> Not to hijack the thread, but I have a 20 amp / 240 volt non GFCI outlet in my garage that I plug my portable charger into for our Prius and soon to be RAV4 Prime. It’s not out in the weather but the floor often gets wet in the garage from melting snow from the cars. The charger has a GFCI built into it and it is always plugged in. Does the breaker also need to be GFCI if it’s in the plug? I suppose if something went bad before the charger we wouldn’t have the protection, but I’ve also read that doubling up GFCIs in series can be problematic.


I’d be ok with that. I would consider that inline gfci.   I decided that whenever I do any work I will do my best to bring up to current code.  I was unable to find any 240 gfci receptacles. That leaves the only option as a two pole gfci breaker.  100$ and 15 minutes.  Moving into  period of my life where 100$ on very small extra margin makes sense and doesn’t seem too costly.


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## woodgeek (Feb 20, 2022)

Good advice above.  Some comments:

1. The plan to use 'free' superchargers and charge 120V at home will get really old, really fast.  Even if the supercharger is fast, sitting there for 30+ minutes just to save a few bucks will get annoying.  And how many times do you need to wake up to a quarter full Tesla before you give up on 120V? L2 (240V) home charging is great, just plug it in (like your phone) and its always ready to go.  And the price is sooo much less than gas, esp given the higher eff (mi/kWh) of the Teslas.

2. About the outside/rain factor.  The entire POINT of the EVSE, instead of just plugging in your EV, is safety.  The contacts on the EV connector are DEAD until after its plugged in AND a microcontroller has determined that the ground contact is made and a suitable handshake exists (i.e. its plugged into an EV, not your wet fingers).  So there is no reason you can't stand in a puddle in the rain in your bare feet and lick your Tesla connector to see what it taste's like.  Totally safe.  And a level BEYOND the safety GFI provides.  You are putting in GFI to make codes happy, not bc of any safety factor.

So this is where the plug comes it.  The plug/outlet is the only unsafe part of this plan, esp re weather.  I would put the outlet in an 'in service' weather box.  The in service box has a notch such that the box can be closed with the plug/cord in place.  And then I would just leave it plugged in ALL THE TIME.  The EVSE and its connector is sealed and weather-proof and engineered safe that way.

One issue here is if you want to carry that EVSE in your car when driving.  In this case, I would just get another one and leave it in the trunk (it will never get used).  Another issue is theft.... a thief could steal an EVSE left outside all the time.  If it happens, just get another one for $150 and lock it somehow.

3. Rusty, if you are confused, keep in mind that the EVSE and the EV talk about what current/power to use, and decide to use the lower of their two capacities.  The EV might take 50A 240V, but plug a 16 A 240 V EVSE into it, and they will agree on 16 A. No problem.


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## RustyShackleford (Feb 20, 2022)

woodgeek said:


> One issue here is if you want to carry that EVSE in your car when driving.  In this case, I would just get another one and leave it in the trunk (it will never get used).



That's why I bought a "charger" (one of the $500 things that his hard-wired and has the safety-interlock thing, mentioned in post #37 item #2).   Of course, it's not really a charger, that is in the vehicle; it's just a safe AC connection.  I didn't want to leave the cord at home, in case I ever needed it on the road, and I didn't want to be plugging it in when it's wet.



woodgeek said:


> . Rusty, if you are confused, keep in mind that the EVSE and the EV talk about what current/power to use, and decide to use the lower of their two capacities.  The EV might take 50A 240V, but plug a 16 A 240 V EVSE into it, and they will agree on 16 A. No problem.


Yes, agree on 16A, but charge much slower.


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## peakbagger (Feb 20, 2022)

One of the few benefits of totaling my first Rav 4 was the charge cord was at home when it got hauled so I ended up with spare when I bought the second one. I now have a 240 20 amp cord for the garage so I have two spares. I keep looking for charge stations when I travel just for the heck of it but unless I was there all day it does not make sense. I have in theory 600 miles range with my Prime (45 electric, 555 gas) so I just fill it up with gas until I get home. IMO supercharger type chargers are for full EVs. Battery life is also impacted with fast charges.  In the long run its better to charge them slow.


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## woodgeek (Feb 20, 2022)

RustyShackleford said:


> That's why I bought a "charger" (one of the $500 things that his hard-wired and has the safety-interlock thing, mentioned in post #37 item #2).   Of course, it's not really a charger, that is in the vehicle; it's just a safe AC connection.  I didn't want to leave the cord at home, in case I ever needed it on the road, and I didn't want to be plugging it in when it's wet.
> 
> Yes, agree on 16A, but charge much slower.



We agree.  I just want to point out that ALL EVSE's, both hardwired and portable, have the exact same safety interlocks.  I wouldn't want to be plugging and unplugging a portable EVSE all the time, esp in a wet location.   If the OP was gonna sling his portable charger in and out of his frunk every time he or his wife wants to use it, and make and break 240V plug connections outdoors, nope, that is not a convenient or maximum safety plan.

But that said, a $150 portable EVSE, plugged in 'permanently' in a weather box (or with an indoor plug), is equivalently safe to the hardwired version that cost 3x more.   And the portable on 240V and 3.8 kW, is a very cheap solution if you already have 12 gauge wiring which will be plenty of power for most users to be satisfied.

I have a $600 hardwired 6.5 kW EVSE I installed in 2014 btw.


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## EbS-P (Feb 20, 2022)

I appreciate all the feedback.


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## NoGoodAtScreenNames (Feb 20, 2022)

peakbagger said:


> IMO (and I am not an electrician) is that your installation is grandfathered but not in compliance with current code which was changed to include all outdoor plugs including 240volt. If it was hard wired into the panel with no plug and outlet that you are covered.
> 
> Good pick on the Prime  . If its a SE, the 20 Amp plug is fine but if you are buying the XE or XLE and want faster charging you can go with higher amperage circuit since you have the larger AC to DC converter. I am active on the Rav 4 Prime forum. Get ready for the inevitable cold weather fog horn mystery unless they have solved it and the "how do I quiet the choir of out of tune angels" question. Other than those annoyances, I am very impressed at the overall package. GIve me a PM if you want to talk factory tow hitches as I installed mine on my own.


Yeah - I’m going with the SE with weather package. The rest of the bells and whistles on the higher trim don’t seem worth it. I really wanted to pull the trigger on an EV - VW ID4 looked interesting - but couldn’t do it in the end when I modeled out my trips, particularly in winter. It was close but the Prime just made more sense in the end. I really think this will be my last car with a gas tank though. 

The higher charge rate would be nice for when we are using public level 2 chargers. There’s a lot of Level 2 chargers around here north of Boston. But I wasn’t going to buy the higher trim which included an msrp markup not present on the SE and then the crazy premium package just to get the slightly faster charger. The lower charge rate actually works to my benefit. Since my solar isn’t truly net metered it’s more beneficial to have a lower load over a longer period of time than a faster charge that could force me to pull from the grid. Working from home a lot more now and having a charge time that fits into the daily peak from 9-2 works well. The Prius can fill up on the level 1 during that same time so up to 27 kwh per day from solar going into batteries instead of going back to the grid. 

I’ve also been looking a lot at the RAV4 forum - it seems the biggest complaint right now is interior lighting (…yawn).  I saw a Peakbagger over there and figured it was the hearth.com guy. I mean how many people are out there bagging up peak? Glad you picked a username you like. Mine tend to be cringey stupid and thereby different for each forum I subscribe to…all the good prime puns I could think of were already taken…


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## EbS-P (Mar 4, 2022)

Update…. 
 The Tesla wall charger will be here next week.   I have been hitting up the super charging station.  Was fine the first two times then I thought I knew what I was doing (I am not the typical Tesla owner and playing the Tesla hits streaming radio station confirmed that ).  On my third trip I got two bad chargers in a row and left, without a charge.  Thinking it was some how my fault or an issue with Tesla accounts ect. I didn’t want to be that idiot backing into each and every stall and getting those stares.  I drive home and plugged into to 120 V 12 A.  40 hours later I was fully charged. And the wall charger order was placed.    Range is less than stellar in my city stop and go traffic and cold weather takes its toll.   Needs new tires and  an alignment.   Doubt that will help range.  This is the mixed car I have ever driven and makes me realize how clapped out my Odessey with 114k miles really is. 

Reason I chose the Tesla charger is that it was priced competitively to most others and I can add a second and they “talk” to each to not overload the circuit they are both on.  Others may do the same but didn’t have time to research any further.   It’s been a super crazy two weeks.  

Evan


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## EbS-P (Mar 20, 2022)

I have completed my first week of at home charging.  Twice now I have gotten errors that prevented me from supercharging but each time an AC charger was able to charge the car.  

Install was easy.  Setup went fine.  Decided to reduce the charging rate from 16A to 13A via in car settings. Breaker was warm and I’m sure fine.  But I don’t need the faster charging as I am only charging 10-20 kWh a night.  

Home charger has made life easier than hitting up free charging every 3 days.  I probably will see 50% increases in my average electric usage.   Far cheaper than gas.  

Final thoughts to close this with.  
Im not a huge Tesla fan.  But 4 weeks with this car I am convinced that what ever you think of the brand and their products where they are miles ahead is in the self driving software.   I have hardware from 2016 that’s working with the newest FSD beta.   Coolness aside once they get a few more years down the line they will have in my opinion a safety factor that no one can touch.  Sure it will barf and fail at times but so do humans, probably at a much much higher rate.   Will the license this software?? Maybe.  What’s it worth to have your car save you from an accident?   

Evan.


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## woodgeek (Mar 20, 2022)

How big is the breaker on the Tesla EVSE?  I"m surprised you are charging at 13A (and I assume 240V).


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## EbS-P (Mar 20, 2022)

woodgeek said:


> How big is the breaker on the Tesla EVSE?  I"m surprised you are charging at 13A (and I assume 240V).


Tesla charger is configurable for breakers 60A down to 15A.  You tell it it’s on a 20amp breaker, it sets max output to 16A. You can set charging rate via in in car interface as well.   Charger only needs 2 plus ground (no neutral ) 

the circuit was the old well pump circuit. 20A single pole.  I swapped in a tandem afci breaker on the left side of the panel to free up a spot for a 20A two pole.  I confirmed the wire that I saw was #12 but I can’t say I could guarantee the entire run was so I dropped in the in car charging rate to 13 A at 240V.  I could or maybe should have set the charger up as if it was on 15 A breaker but didn’t.  I could always change That.


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## begreen (Mar 20, 2022)

woodgeek said:


> I have a $600 hardwired 6.5 kW EVSE I installed in 2014 btw.


That's what we've been running on since 2013. Well, almost. Ours is 6kW. 99% of our charging is overnight or longer so no big deal. Eventually we may need to upgrade the circuit, but if one is not daily commuting then the need for a big charger is overrated.


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## EbS-P (Mar 20, 2022)

begreen said:


> That's what we've been running on since 2013. Well, almost. Ours is 6kW. 99% of our charging is overnight or longer so no big deal. Eventually we may need to upgrade the circuit, but if one is not daily commuting then the need for a big charger is overrated.


My math says i can charge 30 kWh (assuming 85% charging efficiency) in 12 hours at 13A @240V.  Given my mileage around town thats more than I need With a 100kwh battery charging to 70% each night.

I really want to look at charging efficiency and vampire drain, but Im afraid what I might find.  Especially when it’s cold and I precondition the battery or preheat the car.  At the end of the day I guess I don’t really care. I’ll keep The pre heats to a minimum and away from 3rd party apps so the car system’s will shut down More.   I’m not Teslas demographic. But WOW! I might become a truck driver if the Tesla Semi drives as a good as mine.


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