# Indoor Boiler installed in Wood Shed vs. Central Boiler 6048



## ch17011 (Dec 20, 2010)

Hello all I have tried to search the forums and find the right answer.  I am considering installing a Central Boiler 6048 but when I consider the cost of that unit for $8000 plus $3,000 in hookup materials (insulated pipe, heat exchangers, etc). Or I could invest in a $4,000 indoor unit and build a $1000 storage shed around it plus the $3,000 for the hookup materials.  What I am getting at is if I build a shed with an indoor boiler I could save $3,000 on  paper and be 3 years ahead on my return on investment.

Anyone install an indoor boiler in a shed or garage that backfeeds the house?  Any suggestions good or bad?


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## woodsmaster (Dec 20, 2010)

I'm installing a biomass 60 with 1000 gal pressurised storage in a 12 x 14 shed 12' tall walls. I have around the same money in my set up as I would have in a outdoor central boiler gassifier. 
I have many more hours in labor and research installing the boiler and building the shed than I would have if I just bought the central boiler. I do have room in the shed for wood storage and
it will be nice to load indoors. If the boiler ever goes bad I still have a shed. If you have a lot of free time and ability to install than an indoor gasser may be for you. Don't be surprised if you go over your estimate a little. 
Oh and my wife is jealous of the time and attention I give to the boiler, shed and shop.


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## heaterman (Dec 20, 2010)

Outdoor vs indoor in a remote building?....  In my ever so humble opinion, any discussion of that topic is a waste of oxygen and time.  

Put it inside. 

I assume you are thinking about a downdraft gasification type boiler vs the CB 6048?  Let's just say the days of all units like that CB are numbered. Go with a gasification type boiler of some kind and enjoy the benefits of using about half as much wood and not turning your yard into something that chokes you when you go outside.


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## ch17011 (Dec 20, 2010)

Heaterman - I would rather not have the furnace inside my basement so as to save room, no dirt, plus I do not have a chimney for use either.  The shed would be built with inslulated room & chimney of course.  The central boiler is not a gasifcation unit as you already know but I'm working on a budget here so that is why I figured an indoor gasificaction boiler in a shed vs a traditional outdoor unit.

Lots of possible benefits with indoor in shed: storage, gasification boiler, less wood and same cost is what I am hoping for.


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## flyingcow (Dec 20, 2010)

ch17011 said:
			
		

> Hello all I have tried to search the forums and find the right answer.  I am considering installing a Central Boiler 6048 but when I consider the cost of that unit for $8000 plus $3,000 in hookup materials (insulated pipe, heat exchangers, etc). Or I could invest in a $4,000 indoor unit and build a $1000 storage shed around it plus the $3,000 for the hookup materials.  What I am getting at is if I build a shed with an indoor boiler I could save $3,000 on  paper and be 3 years ahead on my return on investment.
> 
> Anyone install an indoor boiler in a shed or garage that backfeeds the house?  Any suggestions good or bad?



Looked at OWB, almost $12,000. Installed a indoor boiler in my unattached garage, put storage in basement. Works excellent!! for me. Basically same money.

Will check in later. BUT figure E-classic OWB(supposedly more eficient than a 6048). 1 cord of wood=100gals of oil.

                                                                                                                      Gassifier- 1 cord of wood = 150 gals of oil sometimes closer to 175 gals.

My figures----used to use 1,000 gals of oil. I'm heating my house on 6.5 cord(yr round). AND my t-stat is set at 72, not 68 liked it used to be on oil.

And this is a true 128 cu/ft cord.


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## Como (Dec 20, 2010)

http://www.windhager.co.uk/products/index/view/categoryID/10/productsID/22

This sort of thing?

I can not remember seeing something similar to the all in one box Central Boiler on a European web site.


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## ihookem (Dec 21, 2010)

I put a gassifier outside in a 6x6 shed. It works very well 120 ' from the house. I wish I would have made a 8x8 shed though. I burned 3 1/2 cords last year and 1 cord was popple and boxelder. The Central boiler ( the smallest one 4020 ) would have been about 5k more than my EKO 25.


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## heaterman (Dec 21, 2010)

ch17011 said:
			
		

> Heaterman - I would rather not have the furnace inside my basement so as to save room, no dirt, plus I do not have a chimney for use either.  The shed would be built with inslulated room & chimney of course.  The central boiler is not a gasifcation unit as you already know but I'm working on a budget here so that is why I figured an indoor gasificaction boiler in a shed vs a traditional outdoor unit.
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> Lots of possible benefits with indoor in shed: storage, gasification boiler, less wood and same cost is what I am hoping for.



I should have expounded more better   Boiler in a shed = inside for this discussion. 

 If you have the funds, make your shed large enough to hold a couple face cords of wood. That will make a lot of difference in the amount of ^&%($)#** stress you go through when lighting your boiler and maintaining a burn.  Gasification boilers do not like snow covered wood being thrown into the firebox and frozen wood is not so good either.  Your idea sounds like the best case for your particular scenario.  Go fo it.


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## Como (Dec 21, 2010)

> Looked at OWB, almost $12,000. Installed a indoor boiler in my unattached garage, put storage in basement. Works excellent!! for me. Basically same money.
> 
> Will check in later. BUT figure E-classic OWB(supposedly more eficient than a 6048). 1 cord of wood=100gals of oil.
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I saw those numbers, I was trying to work backwards the load of another building near here.

1 cord of wood=100gals of oil - They do not say what efficiency the oil would be burnt at, suggests that the E Classic would burn at about 40%. From what I have read this may be possible but not if it is operated the way they usually are.

Your numbers, 120 mbtu gross, something less than 100 mbtu net ( I am assuming an old oil boiler) Say 160 mbtu gross in the wood, 125 mbtu net, so you are using more but (keeping the building warmer) but costing a lot less.


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## flyingcow (Dec 21, 2010)

Como said:
			
		

> > Looked at OWB, almost $12,000. Installed a indoor boiler in my unattached garage, put storage in basement. Works excellent!! for me. Basically same money.
> >
> > Will check in later. BUT figure E-classic OWB(supposedly more eficient than a 6048). 1 cord of wood=100gals of oil.
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> ...



WAYYYY over my head. The oil boiler is a Weil Mclain 85,000btu boiler. Serviced every year, seems like it always got high 80's% effiency.  The E-classic figure of 1 cord= 100gals of oil was from the E-classic dealer. I know this guys rep, always spot on with figures.

All i know is raw numbers. What i used for oil, and what I'm using now for wood. Very well seasoned wood, and I am gaining on the efficient use of this wood boiler.


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## Tennman (Dec 21, 2010)

Our boiler barn is about 120' behind the house with a 180' underground. I'm wasting some energy with the long run but love having the stacked wood near the splitter, the mess from splitting, inevitable occasional smoke, etc in my boiler barn. The ash, soot, bugs are all kept in my man cave. I'm happy and she's happy. Make it as big as you can afford. I spend a fair amount of time in the barn so don't undersize. Invest in a good indoor gasser and build the "command center". You'll be spending a lot of time with this beast and I'd hate to be doing that standing in the cold. Just like belly buttons... innie or outie both work. I'm an outie. Lots to read here. Have fun.


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## shawntitan (Dec 21, 2010)

Put it inside, you'll thank yourself the first rainy/snowy night you don't have to stand outside to feed it.


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## Como (Dec 21, 2010)

Well the numbers were done in my head, but I guess what I am saying is that your numbers, oil saving, wood usage, increased temperature are pretty much where you would expect them to be.

If you had gone down the Central Boiler route you would have been looking at burning twice as much wood.

The 1 cord of wood=100gals of oil I found on the Central Boiler site. Along with their 93% efficiency claim!


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## yooperdave (Dec 21, 2010)

lots of good coments both ways.  doesn't central boiler come with a 25 year warranty??  thats got to be worth a lot, no?


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## Singed Eyebrows (Dec 21, 2010)

Buy the indoor gasser & put outside if necessary. Don't even think about purchasing the smoke dragon IMHO. Even if you don't have close neighbors the lungs you save might be yours. That & as Heaterman says, about half the wood consumption. I believe I read that as of 2012 OWB's cannot be built that do not meet strict standards. Wisconsin is not one of the states that sits & says there is nothing we can do about a gross polluter, even if you have a so called legal OWB. So trying to install one "under the wire" might be a costly mistake, not sure of your current laws & certainly not pending ones, Randy


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## heaterman (Dec 21, 2010)

yooperdave said:
			
		

> lots of good coments both ways.  doesn't central boiler come with a 25 year warranty??  thats got to be worth a lot, no?



I always tell my customers that the best warranty to have is the one you never need.  AFA warranty's go read the fine print. Few if any are what they appear to be on the surface.

Re" the efficiency ratings mentioned by COMO. As I understand things the companies that showed exceedingly high efficiency ratings all seem to have been tested in one specific lab. Draw your own conclusions. 
If I had to guess I would say that we will see a complete rethink and overhaul of standards and test methods coming in the not too distant future. Possibly even something that bears some resemblance to real world conditions and valid protocols for efficiency. You heard it here first.


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## Hydronics (Dec 21, 2010)

It really is a no brainer: put the gasser in the shed. I am very happy with my EKO 60 in out-building, 150' from house.
I got the 60 with the intent to install storage but it works so well I'm not sure I'll ever install the storage. Probably when life isn't so busy. In my opinion storage doesn't give the return on investment unless you build it yourself. you can burn 30" long in the 60, I cut 24" for ease of handling & quicker drying.
You'll want to cover & dry all your wood, ideally right next to or in with your boiler. The bigger the building the better or at least a lean-to for wood storage.
Don't expect to put green wood in a gasser though, nothing should be loaded with green wood anyway -you use 1/3 of the energy steaming off the water.
There is a Central dealer 10 minutes from where I live, nice guy, I teach his sons karate, I really wouldn't want a Central if it were free.
I think it's tough to beat an EKO -product for the dollar. I can tell you first hand that I'm satisfied with mine. Best of luck to you either way!


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## yooperdave (Dec 21, 2010)

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good point on the warranty...but this one includes 25 years at no charge.  there are also rebates and the e-classic qualifies for the tax credit.  sure knocks down the cost now doesn't it?  what brands do you sell? "centralboiler.com"  ask them any  questions. every one that i know that has one is absolutley sattisfied.  no i am not a dealer.  just admire their simplicity and funtionality.


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## Tennman (Dec 21, 2010)

Our boiler barn is about 120' behind the house with a 180' underground. I'm wasting some energy with the long run but love having the stacked wood near the splitter, the mess from splitting, inevitable occasional smoke, etc in my boiler barn. The ash, soot, bugs are all kept in my man cave. I'm happy and she's happy. Make it as big as you can afford. I spend a fair amount of time in the barn so don't undersize. Invest in a good indoor gasser and build the "command center". You'll be spending a lot of time with this beast and I'd hate to be doing that standing in the cold. Lots to read here. Have fun.


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## Como (Dec 21, 2010)

heaterman said:
			
		

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You can not read the warranty on their web site, in fact I found it hard to track down any mention of it.

I tend to be suspicious of small companies and long warranties. Easy enough to draft something that is pretty meaningless.

I was under the impression OWB's effectively did not last 25 years anyway?


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## MNBobcat (Dec 21, 2010)

With a gasifier you have to burn really dry, seasoned wood.  That means splitting everything, stacking everything and letting it season.  I have a 6048 and I can cut wood and burn it the same day - split or not.  Standing dead is plenty dry enough.  I can even burn punky wood.  True, you may go through more wood with the 6048 but the processing of that wood is a lot more forgiving and less work.

I built a 12 x 24 pole building.  Poured a 6 inch slab on one side and set the  boiler on it.  I installed a louvered agri fan near the ceiling and it operates on a light switch.  I have motion detector lights on the outside of the building that come on when I get near the building and I have plenty of light inside of the building.  The other half (12x12) of the shed is used for wood storage.

I put thermopex in (235 feet) between the house and the shed and also between the shed and the pole building.  The 6048 will heat both.  It heats my attached garage to 60F all winter, heats the house and all our hot water.

I love the boiler.  I love having it inside, out of the wind where everything is clean and dry.  No wood mess anywhere near the house.  I love the walk at night, through the woods, to put some wood in the boiler before I go to bed.


I probably have about $15k in my set up (including the pole building thermopex)  But it was worth it for having a first rate setup.  Also, I was paying $3k a year for propane so the payback period is pretty short.

Also, you don't need to buy a brand new boiler.  Mine was 2 years old and I saved about $3k over new.  

Its been so efficient, that I've not had any smoke problems either.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Dec 21, 2010)

yooperdave said:
			
		

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 & thats their downfall "simplicity", It's just a box with a water jacket & not capable of burning cleanly. Sometimes you need to care about others or others will show you how much they care about you, Randy


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## yooperdave (Dec 21, 2010)

Singed Eyebrows said:
			
		

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   jeez! how many bells and whistles do you want?  as far as burning cleanly, how the heck can they achieve as 97% efficiency rating?  (e-classic highest output rating with lowest emissions nov 11 2010 epa website...as advertised on central boilers site for the e-classic)  as far as caring about others, it seems that at least twice a month, someone with a indoor woodstove is asking how to deal with complainers.


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## Como (Dec 21, 2010)

The EPA regs are a bit of a joke, they were designed by the OWb manufacturers.

They require the use of crib wood, who burns crib wood?

The very best German etc stoves claim low 90's efficiency, to achieve that you need all sorts of controls and storage.

97% would be around the very best propane boilers, they can use PVC pipe for exhaust... Not something you see on an OWB.


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## heaterman (Dec 21, 2010)

yooperdave said:
			
		

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Regarding the efficiency numbers....... Let me just flatly say that they are completely false. They are misleading at best and a bald faced lie at worst. I'm sorry but you cannot achieve that level of efficiency without collapsing the flue gas and condensing the heat held in the water vapor back into liquid form. This would mean that the 90+ efficiency wood boilers, all brands, would have to have a condensate drain somewhere for the liquid to drain off the heat exchanger and out of the chimney. Obviously this is not the case as no wood burners that I have seen are equipped with a condensate drain. Therefore it is 100% safe to say that the stated efficiency of these 90%+ units is a joke. In real life, real world conditions they come nowhere near that number and the manufacturers are taking advantage of inherent flaws in the EPA test protocol to make these outrageous and fictitious claims. Why would they do such a thing? Certainly not to help their customers make a wise and informed purchasing decision. Draw your own conclusions from there.

I think the EPA has become, or at the very least is becoming aware that they are the laughing stock of the science community involved with combustion technology and testing. You will probably see changes and revisions of the test standard coming down the road in the future. 

As far as everyone being satisfied  goes.......I'll mention that to the guy that just returned his CB E-classic for a refund......hopefully. He showed me a stack of dead parts and what was literally a books worth of service call invoices. And btw.....that warranty covers only the water jacket as he found out to his complete dismay. Labor or service call charges are not paid for by the company. He figures he has around two grand in labor charges out of his pocket......I'm just sayin.....

PS: he is installing a Garn as we speak.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Dec 21, 2010)

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 I don't believe I mentioned an efficiency rating. What I did mention was pollution & all non gassers are going to pollute to varying degrees. I care about my neighbors & get the Atmos burning hot as fast as possible. If you don't care about air pollution there is simply nothing more to discuss & you don't need to do anything. It will be done for you, trust me on that, Randy


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## sdrobertson (Dec 21, 2010)

ch17011 said:
			
		

> Hello all I have tried to search the forums and find the right answer. I am considering installing a Central Boiler 6048 but when I consider the cost of that unit for $8000 plus $3,000 in hookup materials (insulated pipe, heat exchangers, etc). Or I could invest in a $4,000 indoor unit and build a $1000 storage shed around it plus the $3,000 for the hookup materials. What I am getting at is if I build a shed with an indoor boiler I could save $3,000 on paper and be 3 years ahead on my return on investment.
> 
> Anyone install an indoor boiler in a shed or garage that backfeeds the house? Any suggestions good or bad?



My first adventure was with a homebuilt OWB that lasted for 4 years and then rotted out. I then purchased a CB 6048 that I ran for 2 or 3 winters. I live in a village but have almost 5 acres of property so I wasn't that concerned about covering the area with smoke as during the shoulder season I hooked the OWB up to a timer and only burnt it at night and lived off the hot water in the boiler during the day. In the middle of the winter, I would fill it before daylight, and then again after sundown to try and hide the smoke. When my father purchased a EKO, I was hooked on the decreased wood use, plus the fact that it didn't smoke up the neighborhood. I have a EKO 60 in a pole barn and I'm using the same water lines that I had with the OWB. The Central Boiler was nice as I didn't have to split the wood, I would just cut and stack it in the fall and then I would just throw it in and forget about the boiler. With the gassifier, I need to split the wood, and stack it up to dry it a year ahead to season I will burn it. At first I was concerned about how much work it would add to my fire-burning with all the extra work, but after having the gasifier for 3 seasons I realize that it is actually less work than before. Even with the splitting of the wood, I burn so much less that I'm ahead in the game. 
In my opinion from using both the OWB, and a gasifier, there is no reason to put in the OWB. Even if it was more money, the gasifier in the long run will be a much better deal even if your wood is free. Free wood still takes time to process, and purchased wood costs more money.


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## Como (Dec 21, 2010)

> My first adventure was with a homebuilt OWB that lasted for 4 years and then rotted out. I then purchased a CB 6048 that I ran for 2 or 3 winters. I live in a village but have almost 5 acres of property so I wasn't that concerned about covering the area with smoke as during the shoulder season I hooked the OWB up to a timer and only burnt it at night and lived off the hot water in the boiler during the day. In the middle of the winter, I would fill it before daylight, and then again after sundown to try and hide the smoke. When my father purchased a EKO, I was hooked on the decreased wood use, plus the fact that it didn't smoke up the neighborhood. I have a EKO 60 in a pole barn and I'm using the same water lines that I had with the OWB. The Central Boiler was nice as I didn't have to split the wood, I would just cut and stack it in the fall and then I would just throw it in and forget about the boiler. With the gassifier, I need to split the wood, and stack it up to dry it a year ahead to season I will burn it. At first I was concerned about how much work it would add to my fire-burning with all the extra work, but after having the gasifier for 3 seasons I realize that it is actually less work than before. Even with the splitting of the wood, I burn so much less that I'm ahead in the game.
> In my opinion from using both the OWB, and a gasifier, there is no reason to put in the OWB. Even if it was more money, the gasifier in the long run will be a much better deal even if your wood is free. Free wood still takes time to process, and purchased wood costs more money.



Says it all, should be a sticky.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Dec 21, 2010)

sdrobertson said:
			
		

> My first adventure was with a homebuilt OWB that lasted for 4 years and then rotted out. I then purchased a CB 6048 that I ran for 2 or 3 winters. I live in a village but have almost 5 acres of property so I wasn't that concerned about covering the area with smoke as during the shoulder season I hooked the OWB up to a timer and only burnt it at night and lived off the hot water in the boiler during the day. In the middle of the winter, I would fill it before daylight, and then again after sundown to try and hide the smoke. When my father purchased a EKO, I was hooked on the decreased wood use, plus the fact that it didn't smoke up the neighborhood. I have a EKO 60 in a pole barn and I'm using the same water lines that I had with the OWB. The Central Boiler was nice as I didn't have to split the wood, I would just cut and stack it in the fall and then I would just throw it in and forget about the boiler. With the gassifier, I need to split the wood, and stack it up to dry it a year ahead to season I will burn it. At first I was concerned about how much work it would add to my fire-burning with all the extra work, but after having the gasifier for 3 seasons I realize that it is actually less work than before. Even with the splitting of the wood, I burn so much less that I'm ahead in the game.
> In my opinion from using both the OWB, and a gasifier, there is no reason to put in the OWB. Even if it was more money, the gasifier in the long run will be a much better deal even if your wood is free. Free wood still takes time to process, and purchased wood costs more money.



Actual field experience . . . . Priceless!!

Efficiency ratings . . . . Useless!!

I thought the only advantage of a traditional OWB was the cost. If you're saying the indoor gassifier/detached boiler room is less expensive, then this decision is a no-brainer!! You've dismissed placing the wood-fired hydronic in the residence, so we'll not consider that option, though it has some advantages.

Myself, I'm on the top side of the 40's, and I would not want to burn more wood. I go get wood during the winter, and even with the advantages of diesel/gas/hydraulics, I'm sore. I want to keep doing this for a long time. If I had to double (leap of faith) my wood gathering efforts, I'd be in serious trouble.

Now comes the fun part . . . researching which boiler to obtain ;-)


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## heaterman (Dec 21, 2010)

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What brands do I sell?
 Royall, HeatSource, Central boiler, Heatmor, Aquatherm, FireKing, Woodmaster, BlueForge, EKO,  WoodGun, Garn, EconoBurn  etc etc.  are some of the brands we have installed and serviced for people.


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## ch17011 (Dec 21, 2010)

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Thanks for the insite.  Do you have pictures or any way to explain how your system works?  A 2K gallon storage tank sounds pretty extreme.  My boiler will tie into a hydronic coil in my airhandler - pretty simple.  I guess one of the pieces I will be missing if I go with a indoor boiler is the water storage is much much smaller..


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## goosegunner (Dec 21, 2010)

> I thought the only advantage of a traditional OWB was the cost. If you're saying the indoor gassifier/detached boiler room is less expensive, then this decision is a no-brainer!! You've dismissed placing the wood-fired hydronic in the residence, so we'll not consider that option, though it has some advantages.



A guy that I work with just put in a Heatmor 400 which is the traditional style OWB. He paid over $10,000 for the unit alone.

Another Coworker called me asking about my new setup, Econoburn 200. He said his quote for a new Heatmor 400 was $16,000 installed.

I told him it will be a while before I can say the Gasifer is the way to go, but 16K for a OWB seemed crazy considering all the other options out there. I referred him the this site and told him to start reading.

gg


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## ihookem (Dec 21, 2010)

I think owb are so expensive is because they buy too big and 16k plus install  is past the point of return in most cases. I can say my EKO is 80% efficient. What I did was measure the weight of my wood for about 36 hrs. I found a heat calc on line to figure about what my heat load was. I compared my btu output @ 6000 btu per pound of wood. My figures told me I was at 80 % efficient. I posted this last year and another poster replied and said with his calcs his also came in at 80 %.


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## sdrobertson (Dec 22, 2010)

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https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/18299/


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## jebatty (Dec 22, 2010)

I also have had experience with an OWB aka "smoke dragon" (1997-2007), then Tarm gasifier with 1000 gallons pressurized storage 2007-to date. These both were used to heat my shop to interior air temp of about 55-60F.

OWB: heated my old shop 1997-2007, 700 sq ft (6,300 cu ft), poorly insulated; burned seasoned pine slab wood, normal winter days (-5 to +20F) had to load 2-3 times a day, used about 10-15 cords per winter. At times the smoke was so bad that a neighbor came over and thought the place was on fire.

Tarm: also heated my old shop 2007-2009; burned seasoned pine slab wood, normal winter days (-5 to +20F) had to burn daily 4-6 hours, used about 5 cords per winter, nearly smoke free.

Tarm: now heats my new shop, 1500 sq ft (20,000 cu ft), well insulated; burn seasoned pine slab wood, normal winter days (-5 to +20F) one burn of about 6 hours every 2-3 days, estimate 3 cords per winter, nearly smoke free.

My current estimate of 3 cords/winter is based on weighed wood burned in November (1288 lbs) and 873 degree days, with 9,768 normal degree days for my area of Minnesota; total estimated wood to be burned 6,620 lbs = 2.78 cords at 2,380 lbs/cord of jack pine.

EDIT: I will continue to refine my calculations, as I am weighing wood also for Dec and intend to do so for Jan and Feb.


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## sdrobertson (Dec 22, 2010)

Good post jebatty....I get asked all the time on how many cords do I burn but I have a hard time giving good information on how much wood I actually go through as I have never really kept good track.  I think I know to a extent, but I do not want to give out bad information as it would only be a guess.  I do know that it is allot less than before.  I'm starting this year to actually keep track.....


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## ihookem (Dec 23, 2010)

So far I burned about a cord of boxelder, elm and popple. Not much for how cold it's been.


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## Paso (Dec 26, 2010)

If you are on an acreage don't rule out something on wheels.

I have never regretted installing my project inside of my trailer.

Insurance has no issues all I'm doing is supplying hot water to the building. 

Wouldn't work if your in town.


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