# Window heat loss



## chuck172 (Jul 10, 2010)

I'd like to resolve what I think is a big heat loss in my house. Windows.
I have 20 year old Anderson double paned units. They are O.k, but I really don't have any insulated window covering. Insulating shades, curtains etc.
What's everybody using?


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## benjamin (Jul 10, 2010)

Unless your house is extremely well insulated, I'd doubt that these windows are a signifigant heat loss.  Especially if they really were built in 1990, as opposed to the former owner claiming they were twenty years old when you bought the place 15 years ago.

They may be clear glass which loses much more heat than low e, but unless they're really leaky (major wear or bad install), and/or they're rotted out, there is no way you would save money by replacing them or adding insulating curtains.  

If you just want to add curtains, and aren't doing it for the money then go for it.  

I have lots of old double pane clear glass (all facing south-gains more heat and loses more heat) and smaller low e on the other sides. No curtains yet either.


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## chuck172 (Jul 10, 2010)

I built the house with new windows in 1990. They are double paned andersons. I have alot of glass. No curtains, great views. I love the solar gain on the south facing units during a sunny day, but at night I'll bet they equal a big hole in the wall proportionate to their size. I have a big bow window and a sliding glass door that has to let out my valuable Tarm heat. I'll do anything I can to make my minimal (500 gallon) storage work better.


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## DaveBP (Jul 10, 2010)

Modern low-e double-glass well sealed windows are only achieving an average R value of about 3. So just imagine all of the area of the windows being simply uninsulated 2X4 wall.

Is it worth insulating that wall? Sure it is, if it is simply a matter of stuffing some cheap fiberglass in there. Unfortunately, the laws of the universe require that anything having to do with windows have to be the most expensive materials in the entire construction project. 

The other problem with windows is that most good insulators are opaque. No problem at night but you need to remove that insulation in the daytime.

For a few years I put 1" urethane rigid foam panels over my big window wall units. I feel guilty as hell about it but the inconvenience of handling all those panels (and where to put them during the day) caused me to use the foam in another project and just put the effort into cutting a little more firewood to make up for the heat loss. However, this year I am moving into the house that I've been building for too many years. Much more glass area in some rooms so I'm thinking about foam panels for the rooms that aren't occupied during the day. Leave them there until we want to use that room. 

I've concluded that anything you use to insulate windows has to be very convenient or you end up not using it.


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## benjamin (Jul 10, 2010)

I'm in the same boat, insulating shade/panels would make a huge difference when it's 20 degrees and cloudy for a week.  But then you're going to have the boiler going anyway.  Curtains would probably keep my place warmer when it's sunny and really cold outside at night, but I stay comfortable enough without them in that kind of weather.  

If the shades allow you to burn once a day instead of twice, you may enjoy putting them up rather than lighting another fire.  On the other hand most people light their fire in the evening and it might not make that big of a difference in the useful storage if the boiler is covering most of the nighttime load directly, it would be a matter of putting up the curtains or another load in the boiler.


One more thing to get around to when there's nothing better to do.


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## chuck172 (Jul 10, 2010)

If that thermostat calls for heat less frequently with curtains at night then curtains at night is what I want. Any heat save is heat used later when needed and that extends my storage time. Like I said, I have minimal storage, I don't want to add anymore and I want to stretch the  storage as far as possible.


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## Dune (Jul 10, 2010)

A long time ago, Mother Earth News had an article about insulated curtains. They made them with blankets stitched between drape material. You would also want them pretty secure to avoid air touching the window glass. Maybe velcro strips along the sides, weighted at the bottom, and closely fitted at the top. I can't see how it could not help.


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## vvvv (Jul 10, 2010)

http://czarcar-foamwindowinsulation.blogspot.com/


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## chuck172 (Jul 10, 2010)

I found the Mother Earth Link:
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Green-Homes/1983-11-01/How-to-Make-a-Thermal-Shade.aspx


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## begreen (Jul 10, 2010)

If the house has high heat loss, new windows may offer one of the poorer returns on investment. A decent single pane window (with tight glazing in good condition) + a good storm window = R 2, so going from R2 to R3 is not going to net a big savings gain. You would need to upgrade to some serious, arctic design triple pane windows to really affect heat loss through the glass. Curtains, shades or panels can make a quick difference with a faster payback.

For a better ROI, aggressively seal up all leaks, starting with the foundation sill and work upwards. Make sure door and windows are sealing well too. Then insulate every where possible, including the joist spaces above the sill. Then add insulated curtains, multi-cell shades or removable panels and you will start seeing some real gains.


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## Delta-T (Jul 10, 2010)

I've seen people around placing aluminized mylar (emergency blanket basically) over their sliding doors. Never asked how well it worked. Those things reflect high percentage of radiant heat, though I'm sure that heat loss from windows is more likely to be conductive. Anybody know anyone using something like that?


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## vvvv (Jul 10, 2010)

Delta-T said:
			
		

> I've seen people around placing aluminized mylar (emergency blanket basically) over their sliding doors. Never asked how well it worked. Those things reflect high percentage of radiant heat, though I'm sure that heat loss from windows is more likely to be conductive. Anybody know anyone using something like that?


Czar's configuration + modification would result in a foam panel with aluminum facing, overlsized so to create dead air space + foil & reflective gain to r-value. 2" foam can get up to r-15 on the glass! as seen the lower panel remains in place for ease of use but system can be further modified. lower panel in place allows for running around with no pants on!
hard to sell brains to a genius!


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## willworkforwood (Jul 10, 2010)

This seems to be a subject that everyone is interested in these days! We have lots of glass just like you Chuck. Before getting the idea for the boiler, I built 22 storm windows 4 years ago out of Plexiglas and plywood frames. Not a quick project, but it has helped a lot. I can post pics if anyone is interested. The storms averaged $26 each, so the thermal drapes would probably be both easier and less expensive. We also bought floor-length thermal drapes to cover a French door, and that gives a huge improvement in that part of the house. In addition to the storms; a couple of years ago, I realized that the top and bottom window seals were getting old and losing efficiency. I replaced them, 2 being done on a cold, windy Fall day and it make an immediate, noticeable difference in the area around the window. So, it became obvious to me that this job should have been done at least a few years earlier, in order to avoid the gradual loss in efficiency. My windows don't have side weatherstripping, but I know that other models do, so that's another thing that would need replacement over time. These window seals aren't an obvious thing, because they're not something out in plain sight, like door weatherstripping is. It's a good thing to check every few years.


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## semipro (Jul 10, 2010)

We tried some insulated cellular shades (with side tracks to seal the side) in one room.  They seem to work well and are well made.  I believe the name is "Comfortex ComfortTrack Plus".  The side tracks and top and bottom seals stop convective air leakage around the sides.


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## Floydian (Jul 11, 2010)

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Conservation/conservation.htm#WindowTreatments

Here is a bit of info on the subject. Check out the condensation calculator!

I have a friend who lives off grid in a passive solar house. She uses 2" xps panels at night on her large south facing glass. She wipes the condensation off those wooden windows every morning but the hassle is worth it to her.


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## chuck172 (Jul 11, 2010)

That is a great site Floydian, thanks.


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## jebatty (Jul 11, 2010)

Just about the wisest thing my wife and I did back in 1992-1997 was replace all the windows in our 1956 house with quadruple pane equivalent windows (two panes of glass with two layers of plastic film between the glass panes), low-e, argon, etc. They also are coated to block infrared heat from coming in during the summer and trap infrared inside during the winter. These are rated R-8 and were expensive. We have about 62' lineal of glass in a 160' perimeter house, most windows are 5' high, and we really wanted to preserve the outside views. I doubt they ever will provide an investment payback in $$$, but the payback in comfort is priceless. No cold air wash in the winter, no drafts, and even with -30F and colder outside with howling winter winds, the glass on the inside is warm to the touch. Also, no frost or condensation. The wood around the glass is free of any water staining. With all the money a person spends on other items of comfort, in the right situation spending big bucks for comfort from great windows just might be worth it.


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## chuck172 (Jul 11, 2010)

I have the same glass/house perimeter specs as jebatty. No window covering, just 20 year old double pane andersons. Money is tight but I have to come up with a good answer.


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## oldspark (Jul 11, 2010)

chuck172 said:
			
		

> I have the same glass/house perimeter specs as jebatty. No window covering, just 20 year old double pane andersons. Money is tight but I have to come up with a good answer.


 I have some 30 year old double pane Anderson's and I have no intention of changing them out or do I feel the need to make a cover for them. Had some other funky windows changed out but I think the Anderson's do a good job. I have a Passive solar house and when we built it we were going to make some insulated coverings for the big south windows but it never happened (like a lot of things), I was using the plans out of a magazine called New Shelter (great magazine) and I do think on older windows they can make a big difference.


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## Dune (Jul 11, 2010)

Floydian said:
			
		

> http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Conservation/conservation.htm#WindowTreatments
> 
> Here is a bit of info on the subject. Check out the condensation calculator!
> 
> I have a friend who lives off grid in a passive solar house. She uses 2" xps panels at night on her large south facing glass. She wipes the condensation off those wooden windows every morning but the hassle is worth it to her.



That is a great site! Thankyou very much. I am going to be spending a lot of time there.


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## dogwood (Jul 11, 2010)

You might take a look at the low-e window films they have at Lowes. I'm not sure how much insulation value they impart. We have been adding film onto our twenty year old Anderson double hungs to protect our furniture and curtain fabrics by preventing UV infiltration without regard to the added insulation value. The manufacturer is Gila. The film goes on easily with a squeegee. Check out their site: http://www.gilafilms.com/Residential/residential-window-film.htm

Mike


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## chuck172 (Jul 11, 2010)

I looked at the site dogwood, I don't think the film adds to the r value of the windows. As a matter of fact the film would probably reduce the daytime solar gain of the glass. Looks like a great product to block the harmful uv rays as needed in your case though.


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## DBoon (Jul 12, 2010)

You might want to check your library for an out of print book called "Movable Insulation" from Rodale Press.  It's a good resource that would allow you to put a lot of facts behind your decision.


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## jebatty (Jul 12, 2010)

This article might be helpful to you, just appeared in the Minneapolis Star-Tribune: Windows


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## midwestcoast (Jul 12, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> For a better ROI, aggressively seal up all leaks, starting with the foundation sill and work upwards. Make sure door and windows are sealing well too. Then insulate every where possible, including the joist spaces above the sill. Then add insulated curtains, multi-cell shades or removable panels and you will start seeing some real gains.



+1.  You could also just get an energy audit & take the guessing out of where to get the most bang for the buck. The guessing part is kinda fun though.
Storms are much better on a ROI basis (especially DIY storms). Thermal shades or curtains need a reasonably tight fit to walls or tracks. I think 1/8" or less space to keep convection down.
If you're set on new windows get the best you can afford. Quality double pain, low-E, argon replacement sash kits are a cheaper alternative to full replacement windows if your frames are in good shape.  I put in some sash kits & with storms now have ~R4 on most windows, but I don't think it saves me much.  Windows are the most obvious source of heat loss 'cause they're so close & visible, but they are generally far from the biggest.


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## begreen (Jul 12, 2010)

For an option that is easy to use daily and easy on the eyes, I like honeycomb cellular shades. The double-cell variety can offer a gain of almost R 4.  Levelor has a sheer efficiency version of the Accordia that we are looking into: http://www.levolor.com/products/cellular-shades/energy-savings.php. Single cell, but more transparent with R 3.33 rating. Hunter Douglas has the Duette Architella which has an insulating cell within the cell. But I haven't been able to find the R value for this series yet, but their energy guide appear to indicate R =4.0. If so, that would be a 300% efficiency gain over an R 2 storm window according to their docs.

Total R-value ÷ Window R-value = Energy Efficiency Increase
(4.0 + 2.0) ÷ 2.0 = 6.0 ÷ 2.0 = 3
Energy efficiency is tripled (300%). 

The U-factor of an R-2.0 window is 0.5 (R = 1/U; U = 1/R). To
calculate the heat flow through this window if its size is 48" x 60"
(20 sq. ft.) and the temperature is 70° inside and 0° outside:
Heat Flow = U-factor x Area (sq. ft.) x Temperature Difference
Heat Flow = U x Asf x ΔT = 0.5 x 20 x 70 = 700 BTU/hour
Over a 24-hour period, heat loss would total 16,800 BTU.

To calculate heat loss with an R-4.0 shade over the R-2.0 window:
R-value = 4.0 + 2.0 = 6.0; U-factor = 1 ÷ 6.0 = 0.167
Heat Flow = U x Asf x ΔT = 0.167 x 20 x 70 = 234 BTU/hour
Over a 24-hour period, heat loss would total 5,616 BTU.
The R-4.0 shade cuts heat loss by two-thirds (67%).


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## benjamin (Jul 12, 2010)

Dune said:
			
		

> Floydian said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



+2 on builditsolar.com

Floydian brings up a good point that wood windows may suffer from the condensation caused by making the windows colder with curtians etc.  

low e will reduce solar heat gain during the day and reduce heat loss all day and night, so it will usually still reduce total heat loss even on south windows (it would be great if you could find "high heat gain low e" but I haven't found it in my price range).  For all other windows, especially west facing in the summer, low e is "the bomb".  

I'd love a good solution but it seems like all of the options have been tried and discarded.  To me, there are easier places to save energy (air sealing, insulation, DHW tempering tank) and it's easier to cut a little more wood than improve on decent windows.  

Maybe some day I'll have a bead blower or bubble windows...


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## semipro (Jul 12, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> For an option that is easy to use daily and easy on the eyes, I like honeycomb cellular shades. The double-cell variety can offer a gain of almost R 4.  Levelor has a sheer efficiency version of the Accordia that we are looking into: http://www.levolor.com/products/cellular-shades/energy-savings.php. Single cell, but more transparent with R 3.33 rating. Hunter Douglas has the Duette Architella which has an insulating cell within the cell. But I haven't been able to find the R value for this series yet, but their energy guide appear to indicate R =4.0. If so, that would be a 300% efficiency gain over an R 2 storm window according to their docs.



The cellular shades I mentioned earlier in this thread are also eligible for federal energy tax credits.  
http://www.comfortex.com/comfortrackproduct.html


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## begreen (Jul 13, 2010)

I like the design. How long have you had them installed? Any issues so far?


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## GaryGary (Jul 13, 2010)

Hi,

We have the insulated shades with the side tracks on some our windows, and I agree they are a good product.  The ones we have add R4 to the window, so they cut the heat loss to less than half when they are down.

We use triple wall polycarbonate inside storm windows on some windows -- they let plenty of light in but cut the window heat loss in half.  The dual wall version of this stuff is what most greenhouses use today.  They are easy to cut to shape with ordinary wood working tools lightweight to handle.  They do distort the view out the window.

The insulation upgrade calculator here:
http://www.builditsolar.com/References/Calculators/InsulUpgrd/InsulUpgrade.htm

For example, if you take 100 sqft of double glazed window (R2) and add a good thermal shade like the ones mentioned above (R4), for our cold climate (Montana), and heating with $2.10 a gallon propane -- the saving is $183 a year.  The 10 year saving with 10% a year inflation in fuel prices is $2910.  

Gary


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## midwestcoast (Jul 13, 2010)

Hi Gary, welcome to Hearth.com. I just wanted to say that I've spent many hours on builditsolar and have learned a ton. Thanks for collecting & spreadinng so much great info!


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## BucksCoBernie (Jul 13, 2010)

We have a big picture window in the living room that is original to the house (about 55 yrs), all the other windows were replaced by the previous owner. Our solution was to use the frost king window insulation film in addition to hanging insulated curtains. The combo of the 2 did a nice job this past winter and was relatively inexpensive.


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## semipro (Jul 13, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> I like the design. How long have you had them installed? Any issues so far?



We've had them in for only 6 months so I can't speak to durability.  They are real well made and seem to work as advertised.  We have about 12 large unsealed, double layer cellular shades in another room and you can really feel the cold air leaking out around them.  I find that frustrating.  They do keep the room warmer when closed though.


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## semipro (Jul 13, 2010)

BucksCoBernie said:
			
		

> We have a big picture window in the living room that is original to the house (about 55 yrs), all the other windows were replaced by the previous owner. Our solution was to use the frost king window insulation film in addition to hanging insulated curtains. The combo of the 2 did a nice job this past winter and was relatively inexpensive.



There was a pretty good discussion of sealing windows this way here some time ago.  https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/29984/  If I remember right you can buy that film in bulk from one of the industrial supplies like MSC or Grainger.


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## GaryGary (Jul 13, 2010)

midwestcoast said:
			
		

> Hi Gary, welcome to Hearth.com. I just wanted to say that I've spent many hours on builditsolar and have learned a ton. Thanks for collecting & spreadinng so much great info!



Thanks!  That's great to hear.


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## horrocksd (Jul 13, 2010)

We have a lot of 25 year old double pane, double hung Anderson windows. They are in decent shape and don't leak much, but in winter you notice the chill off of the glass. For the inside my wife and I have made our own insulated fabric window coverings for the winter.   She buys "quilted fabric" by the yard. Each window requires about one yard of material and is about 26" wide and 30" long. My wife cuts the fabric and hems the bottom normally, but sews a "flap" as a hem across the top. Each window covering is over-sized in each dimension by about one inch. The coverings are held in place in each window by a spring loaded curtain rod that goes through the flap and holds up the fabric by wedging the curtain rod in the casement of the window. We tuck the fabric in at the bottom and sides of the window. Between the fabric cost and the curtain rod we have about a $7 cost per window. The difference in the cold coming off of the windows is very noticeable. On sunny days we roll the fabric up from the bottom, without removing the curtain rod, and place this half-window roll-up on the ledge of the top of the lower double-hung window and it stays in place. To put them back down we just nudge this roll and it drops to the bottom of the window and we tuck it back in and we're good to go. This has worked very well for us on the 28 large windows we have in the house. We have made a similar window covering for a large bay window off of our kitchen.

Additonally, every fall I buy several "12 window plastic kits" and apply the plastic to our screens and put the plasticed-over screens back in place for the winter. This acts as a triple-glass window and makes a surprising difference. It only costs about $28 to do all of our windows, including 6 casement units.  I have learned to apply this shrink-to-fit plastic to the inside so the high winds we sometimes get doesn't shred it. In the spring I peel the plastic off, then the tape that held it, then clean the screen frame with Goo-Gone to get rid of any adhesive residue.These two things--the "window quilts" and the "screen storm windows" have made a very big difference in the comfort level of the house. This winter the econoburn should make an even bigger difference!


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## chuck172 (Jul 13, 2010)

horrocksd, I like your approach to this problem. I especially like the idea of covering the screens.


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## tlc1976 (Nov 22, 2012)

I know old thread but I was reading and really like the idea of the fabric enclosures for the windows.  And I was wondering if anyone else did what I do.

My house is nothing spectacular so I do what I learned from my grandparents.  For the winter and late fall/early spring, I use old comforters, fold them to size, and nail them in place so they overlap the window trim.  It makes a HUGE difference.  I have double pane wooden casements that are likely as old as the house which is 30 years, and new windows are out of the question.  I do leave the slider door uncovered since I use it sometimes, it's the only window the sun sees, and besides the only window I'd miss looking out of.  If something happened like a fire, the blankets would be easy enough to rip down and get out the window.


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## Ehouse (Nov 22, 2012)

Another approach is to cordon off the space creating a small sun room.  This allows you to use other, perhaps more sightly and easier to manipulate insulating strategies such as tambor, bifold, or pocket doors, or a curtain on a track.

Ehouse


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## WES999 (Dec 11, 2012)

I think I will try to make a few of this type of DIY "storm windows" and see how they work.
Quite simple and and cheap.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 11, 2012)

WES999 said:


> I think I will try to make a few of this type of DIY "storm windows" and see how they work.
> Quite simple and and cheap.


 

I made 16 of them following another written set of instructions, have two left to install after the holidays. Wife does special decorations in one of the double windows.


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## GaryGary (Dec 11, 2012)

WES999 said:


> I think I will try to make a few of this type of DIY "storm windows" and see how they work.
> Quite simple and and cheap.





Not trying to talk you out of doing these storm windows, which look good and effective, but one alternative that I kind of like is to get a sheet of Acrylic (Plexiglass) that is about 1/8 to 3/16ths thick, and just cut to match the size of the window frame opening.  You can just push them into the opening and secure with a couple of small screws that go into the window frame (or more screws for large windows).  They are very little work to make (no frame) and essentially invisible.  Last many years.
The downside compared to the windows in the video is that they don't provide double glazing.

Example: http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Conservation/acrylicstormwindow.htm
The example uses velcro to hold the window in place, but I've since gone to the two small screws, which are so small they don't really show at all.

Gary


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## TradEddie (Dec 12, 2012)

GaryGary said:


> Not trying to talk you out of doing these storm windows, which look good and effective, but one alternative that I kind of like is to get a sheet of Acrylic (Plexiglass) that is about 1/8 to 3/16ths thick, and just cut to match the size of the window frame opening. You can just push them into the opening and secure with a couple of small screws that go into the window frame (or more screws for large windows). They are very little work to make (no frame) and essentially invisible. Last many years.
> The downside compared to the windows in the video is that they don't provide double glazing.
> 
> Example: http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Conservation/acrylicstormwindow.htm
> ...


 
Early this year my son kicked a soccer ball though one of our small basement windows, a 35 year old single pane Anderson, I couldn't replace just the glass and frame, and replacing the whole window assembly would mean a huge demolition inside and out. I pulled the frame apart with only minor damage, used a Lexan sheet to replace the glass, and then glued another sheet where the insect screen would go.  Now I have a bulletproof window, and the difference in temperature inside is remarkable.

I have now replaced almost all of my original Anderson double hung window sashes. The original wood sashes were beginning to rot and separate at the joints, but the vinyl clad frames were still perfect.  Sashes cost perhaps a quarter of the cost of entire window replacements, never mind labor, and each window takes barely 10 minutes to replace both sashes. The resulting air sealing improvement is very noticeable, and I suppose the "Low E High Perf" will be worth something too in the long run. I called Anderson for the part numbers then went to Home Depot to order, HD start out with the same price but for my first few orders when they total up and apply a HD discount, the actual price was 30-40% less than direct from Anderson. Unfortunately, on my last order that deal with Anderson was gone, so I paid full price, but still a huge saving over entire windows, and I don't think that difference would ever have paid itslef back.

TE


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## GaryGary (Dec 12, 2012)

TradEddie said:


> Early this year my son kicked a soccer ball though one of our small basement windows, a 35 year old single pane Anderson, I couldn't replace just the glass and frame, and replacing the whole window assembly would mean a huge demolition inside and out. I pulled the frame apart with only minor damage, used a Lexan sheet to replace the glass, and then glued another sheet where the insect screen would go. Now I have a bulletproof window, and the difference in temperature inside is remarkable.
> 
> I have now replaced almost all of my original Anderson double hung window sashes. The original wood sashes were beginning to rot and separate at the joints, but the vinyl clad frames were still perfect. Sashes cost perhaps a quarter of the cost of entire window replacements, never mind labor, and each window takes barely 10 minutes to replace both sashes. The resulting air sealing improvement is very noticeable, and I suppose the "Low E High Perf" will be worth something too in the long run. I called Anderson for the part numbers then went to Home Depot to order, HD start out with the same price but for my first few orders when they total up and apply a HD discount, the actual price was 30-40% less than direct from Anderson. Unfortunately, on my last order that deal with Anderson was gone, so I paid full price, but still a huge saving over entire windows, and I don't think that difference would ever have paid itslef back.
> 
> TE


 
Very nice.

Can you give us a rough idea what the cost of one replacement sash is?

Gary


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## TradEddie (Dec 12, 2012)

I'll have to check tonight, but IIRC, about $100 per sash originally, depending on sizes, and whether upper or lower. Narroline windows.  Last set were significantly higher. I wouldn't have replaced them just to get the energy savings, but many were beginning to rot, and on some, the spring-loaded sash cords were literally pulling the frame joints apart.  When we moved in, the top of one lower sash was bowed up so far in a U shape that there was an air gap between the glass and frame! I still have one or two of the originals that are in good enough shape not to be on my priority list. For 35 year old windows, not bad.  A few years earlier they'd have lead paint on them and probably none of them would be rotten yet.

I do regret that on my first round, I bought direct replacements, not High Perf Low E, bad salesperson didn't even offer me the option.  Second time around they mentioned the High Perf option, and better yet, prefinished white painted interior for only $10 extra per sash.

TE


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## johnny1720 (Dec 12, 2012)

TradEddie said:


> Early this year my son kicked a soccer ball though one of our small basement windows, a 35 year old single pane Anderson, I couldn't replace just the glass and frame, and replacing the whole window assembly would mean a huge demolition inside and out. I pulled the frame apart with only minor damage, used a Lexan sheet to replace the glass, and then glued another sheet where the insect screen would go. Now I have a bulletproof window, and the difference in temperature inside is remarkable.
> 
> I have now replaced almost all of my original Anderson double hung window sashes. The original wood sashes were beginning to rot and separate at the joints, but the vinyl clad frames were still perfect. Sashes cost perhaps a quarter of the cost of entire window replacements, never mind labor, and each window takes barely 10 minutes to replace both sashes. The resulting air sealing improvement is very noticeable, and I suppose the "Low E High Perf" will be worth something too in the long run. I called Anderson for the part numbers then went to Home Depot to order, HD start out with the same price but for my first few orders when they total up and apply a HD discount, the actual price was 30-40% less than direct from Anderson. Unfortunately, on my last order that deal with Anderson was gone, so I paid full price, but still a huge saving over entire windows, and I don't think that difference would ever have paid itslef back.
> 
> TE


Here is a little hint,  Anderson Windows are warrantied for life.  Each window has a serial number on it somewhere.  I had some issues at work with a few Anderson Windows (we have thousands of them) and they sent me replacements for the cost of the shipping.


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## TradEddie (Dec 12, 2012)

johnny1720 said:


> Here is a little hint, Anderson Windows are warrantied for life. Each window has a serial number on it somewhere. I had some issues at work with a few Anderson Windows (we have thousands of them) and they sent me replacements for the cost of the shipping.


 
Not according to their website, maybe it depends on the type.  20 years limited on glass and 10 on frames for Narroline, mine are 35 years old, and the ones I haven't replaced are still in almost perfect condition. I've even kept the best of each size that I took out, as a temporary fix for another soccer ball accident.

To the question about price, my most recent replacement sashes (Feb 2012) varied from $128 to $167 per sash depending on size, for Narroline Low E High Perf with a prefinished interior.  Earlier replacements were about 30% less. That's cheap compared to installing all new windows, but even still would take a long time for payback if they didn't need to be replaced anyway.

TE


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## semipro (Dec 13, 2012)

johnny1720 said:


> Here is a little hint, Anderson Windows are warrantied for life. Each window has a serial number on it somewhere. I had some issues at work with a few Anderson Windows (we have thousands of them) and they sent me replacements for the cost of the shipping.


I really wish this was true. 
The vinyl cladding on our 25 year old double-glazed Andersen casements is cracking and allowing water in which rots the frame.


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## TradEddie (Dec 13, 2012)

semipro said:


> I really wish this was true.
> The vinyl cladding on our 25 year old double-glazed Andersen casements is cracking and allowing water in which rots the frame.


If you only mean the frame around the glass, and if the actual frame (head, jamb, sills) is in good enough condition, then you may be able to get replacement casements without having to replace the entire window. I expect that replacing the casement would be even easier than replacing sashes.  Call Andersen, their support were very knowledgeable and helpful for me.  Before you call, measure the visible glass sizes, and write down anything you can read from the etching on one corner of the glass.  Work with them to get part numbers, and prices (they also charge shipping), then go to Home Depot and compare prices.
I have no affiliation with Andersen, just a good experience.

TE


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## semipro (Dec 13, 2012)

TradEddie said:


> If you only mean the frame around the glass, and if the actual frame (head, jamb, sills) is in good enough condition, then you may be able to get replacement casements without having to replace the entire window. I expect that replacing the casement would be even easier than replacing sashes. Call Andersen, their support were very knowledgeable and helpful for me. Before you call, measure the visible glass sizes, and write down anything you can read from the etching on one corner of the glass. Work with them to get part numbers, and prices (they also charge shipping), then go to Home Depot and compare prices.
> I have no affiliation with Andersen, just a good experience.
> 
> TE


The casement windows are relatively easy to replace. I have done one under warranty, another purchased, a victim of a soccer ball (kicked poorly by me). Andersen was good to work with but when I called recently they told me the windows were only covered for 20 years.

I may take your advice and call anyway and maybe supply a few photos. We have something like 45 Andersen fenestrations in this house in the way of windows, doors, skylights.


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## johnny1720 (Dec 15, 2012)

semipro said:


> I really wish this was true.
> The vinyl cladding on our 25 year old double-glazed Andersen casements is cracking and allowing water in which rots the frame.


 
I wonder if the ones we had were covered by a lifetime warranty.  We had a bunch of windows that fogged up and others that were in terrible repair.  We took the serial number off and about 3 weeks later we had new windows.   Perhaps they were within the 25 year warranty.


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## jdp1152 (Dec 19, 2012)

chuck172 said:


> I'd like to resolve what I think is a big heat loss in my house. Windows.
> I have 20 year old Anderson double paned units. They are O.k, but I really don't have any insulated window covering. Insulating shades, curtains etc.
> What's everybody using?


 
I have the same age Anderson windows and an energy assessment from Mass Save indicated that replacing this would produce very little cost savings.  Add insulation, seal up leaks, wrap your house.


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## WES999 (Dec 20, 2012)

WES999 said:


> I think I will try to make a few of this type of DIY "storm windows" and see how they work.
> Quite simple and and cheap.




Well, last weekend I made three of these, I followed the youtube instructions for the most part, except I used 1x2 select pine and stained them.
They seem to work quite well ,they fit snugly in the window frame, and you can hardly notice them.


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## DougA (Dec 24, 2012)

We have 30' x 10~16' high south facing window wall with a vaulted ceiling on a super insulated/sealed house that I built 30 years ago. Original windows were double pane sealed units. The windows provide fantastic heat in the winter when it's sunny but very little heat in the summer due to a properly designed overhang and a wonderfully large deciduous tree right in front. I tried insulation on the larger, lower windows but ran into huge problems. When I had insulated panels in the winter, the sun would hit the very cold windows in the morning and the rapid rise in temps broke the seals on all of the windows. You could hear the bang of the glass expanding on cold, sunny mornings. It was more like the crack of a gun actually. Windows didn't break but once the seal is gone, they're pretty well useless because half the time, they are fogged up.  Lesson learned.

All of the windows were replaced under warranty but we still had problems.

10 years ago I finally replaced the entire window wall with newer designed low-e, argon filled. The big difference is that the aluminum spacer on the old units was now replaced with a plastic and butyl spacer. It could handle the stress of the expansion and contraction. I gave up on the interior insulation at night and just use the wood stove to heat the area. Since I have far more standing dead hardwood than I can ever burn, it was a no-brainer.

The view is worth more to us than saving the energy. Just my thought.


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## Jerry_NJ (Dec 28, 2012)

I haven't read in detail but can say I have a two story built in about 1985 (27 years old) and it has Andersen windows.  They are at least medium grade and have solid wood interiors and vinyl clad (over wood) exteriors.  The glass appears to be two pain one piece, the two pains are very close together, no more than an 1/8" air space and no spacers obvious.  We have nice views and a bunch of tall/wide double hung units.  I had considered it may be time to replace these windows with a modern version, one that tilts in so the outside an be cleaned from inside.  This thread has made me question the economic justification of an upgrade.  On the other hand, I am sure the windows are out of warranty and may be impossible to replace anyway.  I have replaced the lower unit on one window because of a failure of the seal and loss of transparent through the glass.  I wonder how long the other windows can hold up on that count.  

In the past Andersen was one of the "best", but I understand Pella and a few other brands may be of better quality/design today.. at a price, of course.


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## ihookem (Jan 5, 2013)

Marvin might be the best. I went with Anderson 4 yrs ago though. Anderson has glass thin enough that when the wind blows you can see the glass bow. Marvin is a heavier window and cost 20% more? My Kolbe windows didn't bow no matter how hard the wind blew.


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## blades (Jan 18, 2013)

4 years ago I used Crestline replacement sash units for all my double hung, I do not remember what the cost was any more. They are the double pain low-E argon units. That provided a significant savings on the NG usage ( ranch home  1960 build).  In A different home back in the 80's we made the insulated shades for the windows, Condensation became a problem on the orginal single pain 1950 style windows, I also replaced those sash units somewhere around the late 80's again it made a difference in the NG usage ( heck with 3 kids 2 dogs + wife and me  might just as well put in revolving doors or for that matter just left them open) The jist here is be careful with the sealed up insulated curtains on the inside as condensation can quickly cause more serious problems to the sash and frames. Note: everything here was wood no alum or vinyl.
Another note: Alum expands contracts 2-3 times as much as wood Vinyl less but UV does a number on these. Fiberglass frames and sash assemblies are the most stable of non wood products but are pricy and pretty much UV damage free. Even the most current vinyl windows still suffer the uv problem and based on the experience of a friend with a new build of just a few years ago shrink. They have warranties but is a fight that is on going as we speak as the blame is being shuttled back and forth between the window company and contractor .


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## PapaDave (Jan 18, 2013)

At some point, I'd like to do FG on the south and west sides of the house, and whatever on the other 2.
Aluminum stove room windows need a stick of dynamite put to 'em.


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