# DIY  Fröling install



## ktm010 (Sep 25, 2013)

After viewing this site for the last two years decided to tackle this project, with lots of help of course. First bit of advise plan your project well in advance if possible(something I never do well). I'll try to explain things as I go with pictures hopefully giving someone else ideas or info as this site has given me. First picture is house to be heated and the location of the garage which the boiler will live in.  Also where my first of many mistakes was made. First plan was to have the garage radiant run off the house boiler as a zone, using 1" pex not even tru 1" ID non oxygen barrier of course (mistake).


----------



## ktm010 (Sep 25, 2013)

I'll try to bring this project up to date since the garage was started two years ago. Garage is now complete on the exterior just not finished inside . I decided to tackle the heat project first making it easier to finish inside later.





ktm010 said:


> After viewing this site for the last two years decided to tackle this project, with lots of help of course. First bit of advise plan your project well in advance if possible(something I never do well). I'll try to explain things as I go with pictures hopefully giving someone else ideas or info as this site has given me. First picture is house to be heated and the location of the garage which the boiler will live in.  Also where my first of many mistakes was made. First plan was to have the garage radiant run off the house boiler as a zone, using 1" pex not even tru 1" ID non oxygen barrier of course (mistake).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## maple1 (Sep 26, 2013)

Well I'd say the garage was definitely a success. Very nice!


----------



## BoilerMan (Sep 26, 2013)

ktm010 said:


> I'll try to bring this project up to date since the garage was started two years ago. Garage is now complete on the exterior just not finished inside . I decided to tackle the heat project first making it easier to finish inside later.


 
What did you use for siding on the gable end as well as the vertical wood?

TS


----------



## ktm010 (Sep 26, 2013)

[Alsoquote="ktm010, post: 1527760, member: 25623"][/quote]


BoilerMan said:


> What did you use for siding on the gable end as well as the vertical wood?
> 
> TS


Wood siding is 1 x 6 T&G cedar siding to match the house, the rest is same metal as used on pole barns 38" wide x length you specify when ordering. Also some more pics to try to get up to date. Mike from Advanced Radiant Design putting the boiler together. some pics of the new pex run to the house .


----------



## ktm010 (Sep 27, 2013)

This was the tank I purchased from Mark Schoellig at AHONA,  he truly is a super nice guy to deal with. The tractor was a little undersized for the job but did finally drag it off


----------



## ktm010 (Sep 30, 2013)

This past weekend I put 2" foam board behind where the tank will go. Also tried spray foam on the back side of the tank cause I won't have access to it later. Then wrestled the tank to it's final resting place.


----------



## BoilerMan (Sep 30, 2013)

You will be very happy with STORAGE!  Have you considered making a plywood "box" around the tank about a foot bigger than the tank and filling it with blown-in (cellulose) insulation? 

TS


----------



## ktm010 (Sep 30, 2013)

I'am sure I'll be happy with storage, but not too happy with the price of 220' of copper plus fittings  made me sick. And I will be foaming the rest of the tank plus 2" foamboard around the rest when done. I think maintaining the heat in the tank is worth anything spent on insulation within reason.


----------



## maple1 (Oct 1, 2013)

Wow - where is all the copper going?

I used a mix of copper & black iron, as much black iron as I could do without getting into threading my own pipe. It's a LOT cheaper - just make sure to use big pipe wrenches & lots of thread & dope.


----------



## BoilerMan (Oct 1, 2013)

Copper Copper Copper!  I love beautiful copper!  Show us more pics. 

TS


----------



## JP11 (Oct 2, 2013)

1.5 inch copper.  cool to see get assembled.  SUCKS to pay for.  You sure don't want em to cut one you won't end up needing.  

JP


----------



## skfire (Oct 2, 2013)

copper, copper, copper, beautiful copper,,,,then we cover it.......could not do it to the manifold wall
design, revise, redesign 10 times, so you can cut once and done

good luck

Scott


----------



## dogwood (Oct 2, 2013)

Have you purchased all that copper already? I had 140 feet to plumb with 1-1/2" pipe on our installation. The cost of all that copper pipe and fittings was shocking. So much so, I took a chance on black iron, even though I'd never threaded any pipe before.

I purchased a vintage threading machine on Craigslist and figured out how to use it. I was concerned the threading job on all the pipes would not be good enough, and that joints would leak.  But as it turned out, there was only one leak. I used Rectorseal #5 on all the joints. If I could do this as an amateur, I'm sure anyone could, and save a considerable sum in the process.

However, I am jealous of your Fröling and all that copper. Best of luck with your project. Should be a first class installation.

Mike


----------



## ktm010 (Oct 2, 2013)

skfire yours looks very nice    And the pipe is being deliverd in the morning.


----------



## skfire (Oct 2, 2013)

ktm010 said:


> skfire yours looks very nice    And the pipe is being deliverd in the morning.



thank you.....just make sure you do not cut that pipe until all the design, layouts and take outs are set 100%.

sk


----------



## Coal Reaper (Oct 2, 2013)

looking good!  i took my tanks off trailer with an engine hoist and one other guy.  then stood up with a winch and 3/4" bars to roll into position.  got er done!


----------



## ktm010 (Nov 3, 2013)

Some progress, Garage manifold installed. Pex entry into garage, copper heading towards the wood boiler. Then Pex entry into house heading toward the 1000 gal storage tank, two expansion tanks installed. And that's about it for now.


----------



## ktm010 (Nov 9, 2013)

Hello copper heads !!  finished storage tank tie in, and boiler tie in, and started garage boiler work.


----------



## kopeck (Nov 11, 2013)

Look at all that copper!  Very nice work!

K


----------



## ktm010 (Nov 29, 2013)

Finally all the copper is in, except the future modine heater. Started the electrical work. It has been quite the project so far, a little overwhelming. Lots of help from Mark Schoellig from AHONA I can't believe he hasn't changed his phone number yet. Also the people from Tarm biomass have been great also. Been learning a lot never ran emt before, lots of soldering. My friend is a pipe fitter by trade as you can see he lays out all the work for me, now I see where the word "craftsperson" comes from.


----------



## __dan (Nov 30, 2013)

ktm010 said:


> Finally all the copper is in, except the future modine heater. Started the electrical work. It has been quite the project so far, a little overwhelming. Lots of help from Mark Schoellig from AHONA I can't believe he hasn't changed his phone number yet. Also the people from Tarm biomass have been great also. Been learning a lot never ran emt before, lots of soldering. My friend is a pipe fitter by trade as you can see he lays out all the work for me, now I see where the word "craftsperson" comes from.



Exactly, the work is something to derive pride and enjoyment from. That is evident in the pictures. Money well spent.

That third picture is a nice how to shot of the near boiler piping, pumped bypass with the Termovar. Thanks for the pictures.

You're gonna love putting wood in that thing.


----------



## bro-tek (Nov 30, 2013)

ktm010 said:


> Finally all the copper is in, except the future modine heater. Started the electrical work. It has been quite the project so far, a little overwhelming. Lots of help from Mark Schoellig from AHONA I can't believe he hasn't changed his phone number yet. Also the people from Tarm biomass have been great also. Been learning a lot never ran emt before, lots of soldering. My friend is a pipe fitter by trade as you can see he lays out all the work for me, now I see where the word "craftsperson" comes from.


 
That is a nice setup, is the 2nd pump at the boiler 12Vdc? that your emengency/power outage pump?


----------



## ktm010 (Nov 30, 2013)

Yes a sense of pride, but that doesn't mean much if it doesn't work as expected. And the 2nd pump is the emergency/power outage pump 12Vdc


----------



## dogwood (Dec 1, 2013)

Ktm010, What make and model is your 12Vdc pump? Beautiful job.

Mike


----------



## ktm010 (Dec 1, 2013)

Grundfos 26-99FC Was told this did not need to be the same size as the primary pump. I'am sure 1" copper and a small pump would work fine.


----------



## dogwood (Dec 2, 2013)

Thanks. I'm trying to find a less expensive alternative to the 12v Laing Ecocirs.

Mike


----------



## Chris Hoskin (Dec 2, 2013)

correct me if I am wrong, ktm010, but the pump you are using is a 110V AC pump connected to an inverter, right?


----------



## ktm010 (Dec 2, 2013)

Correct, 110volt pump running thru a 12dc inverter, sorry for the confusion I would hate to steer someone wrong.


----------



## dogwood (Dec 3, 2013)

Thanks for clearing that up Chris.  

Mike


----------



## ktm010 (Dec 5, 2013)

The tank got a nice coat of closed cell foam


----------



## jebatty (Dec 8, 2013)

One thing I like about the Froling that is innovative is that it cycles the loading unit after the burn is done and the boiler has otherwise shutdown to move to storage continued heat buildup in the Froling from the remaining hot coals. That heat otherwise likely would move up the stack and be wasted. A similar control on my Tarm may be an improvement for next summer and would be quite easy to install with a differential controller which would measure boiler hot water temperature and the temperature of the middle or near bottom of the tank.


----------



## ewdudley (Dec 8, 2013)

jebatty said:


> would be quite easy to install with a differential controller


It is straightforward and should work as intended.  But there is a gotcha if any of storage is above or at same level as boiler, in which case much of the cool water pumped into boiler will fall right back into bottom of storage unless there's a check valve.

Loading units provide a (sometimes optional) low resistance check valve so no problem there.  I don't know of a source for a comparable standalone low resistance flapper type check valve.  I built one from a swing check by replacing the brass flapper with one machined out of HDPE that works well, but it took more time and testing than I would have liked.


----------



## skfire (Dec 8, 2013)

jebatty said:


> One thing I like about the Froling that is innovative is that it cycles the loading unit after the burn is done and the boiler has otherwise shutdown to move to storage continued heat buildup in the Froling from the remaining hot coals. That heat otherwise likely would move up the stack and be wasted. A similar control on my Tarm may be an improvement for next summer and would be quite easy to install with a differential controller which would measure boiler hot water temperature and the temperature of the middle or near bottom of the tank.



Yes, it will cycle intermittently for hours after burn shutoff. I have observed mine loading  130 degree water into the tanks almost 10 hours after the burn. A fact which in my system is more than welcomed and usable, I run my tanks down to 105 and auto switchover at 98. I am wondering if there is a condensation preventative strategy in the procedure, gauging the variation between vessel temp and flue gasses.


----------



## jebatty (Dec 8, 2013)

> But there is a gotcha if any of storage is above or at same level as boiler, in which case much of the cool water pumped into boiler will fall right back into bottom of storage unless there's a check valve.


A U-shaped heat trap also should prevent this from happening, wouldn't it?


----------



## ewdudley (Dec 8, 2013)

jebatty said:


> A U-shaped heat trap also should prevent this from happening, wouldn't it?


I think a trap would work if it goes up higher than the top of the boiler. 

Also, how does the Fröling get water though/around the thermostatic valve when in scavenging mode?


----------



## hiker88 (Dec 8, 2013)

skfire said:


> Yes, it will cycle intermittently for hours after burn shutoff. I have observed mine loading  130 degree water into the tanks almost 10 hours after the burn. A fact which in my system is more than welcomed and usable, I run my tanks down to 105 and auto switchover at 98. I am wondering if there is a condensation preventative strategy in the procedure, gauging the variation between vessel temp and flue gasses.


I can't prove this, but I think it also kicks on the pump occasionally, just to exercise it.  There have been a couple times in the summer, where the fire has been out for a couple days, amd I will hear the pump turn on for a few seconds, then shut off again...


----------



## skfire (Dec 9, 2013)

ewdudley said:


> I think a trap would work if it goes up higher than the top of the boiler.
> 
> Also, how does the Fröling get water though/around the thermostatic valve when in scavenging mode?




scavenging mode...I like that...
Maybe Chris will have a definite answer to the thermostatic bypass question.

The loading pump gets switched on via the Froling controller, when it deems it necessary, I do not know what logarithimc variables are involved in the trigger, but I assume it has to do with vessel protection first and then scavenging for add heat, based on tank readings.


----------



## __dan (Dec 9, 2013)

ewdudley said:


> Also, how does the Fröling get water though/around the thermostatic valve when in scavenging mode?



I have the circ launch temp on the Froling set at 70 C which is just above the opening temp of the thermostatic loading unit. As described above, the boiler will shutdown, but remaining coals will relaunch the circs to scavenge heat with the boiler off and then go off again as soon as the boiler temp falls below the differential, about two degrees C. The circs wil cycle on and off for maybe three hours as the coals burn down with the boiler off. No scavenging below 69 C because the loading unit valve closes near there.

The factory setting for launching the circs was a few degrees lower and the loading unit was closed at that temp, making the oading unit circ run for hours around the boiler but no flow through the boiler with the loading unit valve closed. That's without the smart controls I have planned.

Pretty sure the circ launch parameter is just the boiler water temp setpoint, independent of the boiler firing or not.


----------



## skfire (Dec 10, 2013)

__dan said:


> I have the circ launch temp on the Froling set at 70 C which is just above the opening temp of the thermostatic loading unit. As described above, the boiler will shutdown, but remaining coals will relaunch the circs to scavenge heat with the boiler off and then go off again as soon as the boiler temp falls below the differential, about two degrees C. The circs wil cycle on and off for maybe three hours as the coals burn down with the boiler off. No scavenging below 69 C because the loading unit valve closes near there.
> 
> The factory setting for launching the circs was a few degrees lower and the loading unit was closed at that temp, making the oading unit circ run for hours around the boiler but no flow through the boiler with the loading unit valve closed. That's without the smart controls I have planned.
> 
> Pretty sure the circ launch parameter is just the boiler water temp setpoint, independent of the boiler firing or not.




I have seen scavenging and circ running below 69, I do not know what the setpont is in my controller is, I will chk and post, but I ahve definentely seen thew pump run in the low sixties.


__dan said:


> I have the circ launch temp on the Froling set at 70 C which is just above the opening temp of the thermostatic loading unit. As described above, the boiler will shutdown, but remaining coals will relaunch the circs to scavenge heat with the boiler off and then go off again as soon as the boiler temp falls below the differential, about two degrees C. The circs wil cycle on and off for maybe three hours as the coals burn down with the boiler off. No scavenging below 69 C because the loading unit valve closes near there.
> 
> The factory setting for launching the circs was a few degrees lower and the loading unit was closed at that temp, making the oading unit circ run for hours around the boiler but no flow through the boiler with the loading unit valve closed. That's without the smart controls I have planned.
> 
> Pretty sure the circ launch parameter is just the boiler water temp setpoint, independent of the boiler firing or not.





Factory setting for release of pump at 149f(65C) and thermic element in LK Loading pump is also 149F.(as per LK cuts). 
Do not know what the equation for triggering the mode, but I assume it is a relationship between Flue gas temp , Boiler Temp and Storage status(that one minimally, in this mode).


----------



## skfire (Dec 10, 2013)

Here are some pix from tonight, boiler has been off since this morning's burn, LK loading pump was on when I checked(boiler was at 65C) and was running when boiler was down to  63C.
LK supply side was at 60-62C. 
Top of Tanks were at 127F (50c).
System supply side was at 130(52.5c).


----------



## __dan (Dec 10, 2013)

skfire said:


> I have seen scavenging and circ running below 69, I do not know what the setpont is in my controller is, I will chk and post, but I ahve definentely seen thew pump run in the low sixties.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I set my circ launch temp by trial and error. In the off cycle after firing, I noticed the circs were running but doing nothing. The boiler was hot but the near boiler piping was cooler, meaning the loading unit valve was closed. I have the slab load circs and reset controller piggybacked on the Froling circ launch signal, so if the load is on but no heat comes from the boiler because the loading unit is closed, the load piping runs at the basement slab temp ~ 90 F.

Checking the output of the loading unit into the boiler return with an IR temp sensor, the loading unit would not let the return temp fall below ~ 155 F, which was higher than the listed opening temp. To stop the circs running unnecessarily, I bumped up the circ launch temp to the point where the circs would only run if the boiler was hot enough to open the loading unit valve and remove the heat, which was 70 C. That works perfectly. I have one noisy relay that I can hear snap on and off from upstairs. The Froling goes off but has a thick coal bed that continues to burn. I will hear the load relay cycle on and off a few times over three hours or so as the coals heat the boiler above the launch temp, with the boiler off.

The only problem I have with the boiler off, the slab will come on with the DHW indirect tank sometimes and robs the stored heat from the indirect tank as well as the boiler. I have a simple solution for this using an AB micro 800 smart relay and some temp sensor inputs to prove availability of heat before allowing the DHW circ, but it's not implemented. The relay is sitting here. It's for the future, I have a system that works and the DHW is unlimited when I need it, so it's not a priority. There are a lot more inputs to the micro 800 planned, some manual switches for oil auto / off, and an indicator lamp that says "make a fire".

When I put in the buffer storage tank, the smart relay will only load the DHW on the storage tank. Heat storage and ride through from the slabs alone is plenty.

The Froling fire control, Lambda, flue gas temp sensor, fan speed, and motorized air controls are the fancy, smart part. Pretty sure the circ launch is just one parameter, the boiler water temp.


----------



## __dan (Dec 10, 2013)

skfire said:


> Here are some pix from tonight, boiler has been off since this morning's burn, LK loading pump was on when I checked(boiler was at 65C) and was running when boiler was down to  63C.
> LK supply side was at 60-62C.
> Top of Tanks were at 127F (50c).
> System supply side was at 130(52.5c).



Right, the circ is running, but if the loading unit was open and allowing the cooler return water into the boiler (and removing the heat), the boiler would cool a lot faster with no fire. Supply temp at 52 C but the boiler is 65 C means the loading unit valve is closed and not allowing flow through the boiler. If the loading unit was open, it would only be ten or twenty minutes to cool the boiler below the circ launch temp and turn the circs off. The circ could be running but not moving heat with the valve closed. That's what I saw.


----------



## skfire (Dec 11, 2013)

__dan said:


> Right, the circ is running, but if the loading unit was open and allowing the cooler return water into the boiler (and removing the heat), the boiler would cool a lot faster with no fire. Supply temp at 52 C but the boiler is 65 C means the loading unit valve is closed and not allowing flow through the boiler. If the loading unit was open, it would only be ten or twenty minutes to cool the boiler below the circ launch temp and turn the circs off. The circ could be running but not moving heat with the valve closed. That's what I saw.



Yes naturally, but the question I posed was regarding the controller running the pump BELOW 65C...what is the purpose and how?(the setting is clearly at 65c but it runs at lower temps...)
I see it running at 63C and this morning at 58C.

I also re checked the specs on the LK and one reason to the lower temp pump circulation may be the ability to use lower temp thermostatic elements, (safely within boiler capacity allowances)(see pix). This controller is typical to most froling eqpt in europe, so there may be a setting related to a different functioning boiler/system utilizing lower temps(in the off mode..not firing).

Either way, the "scavenging mode" could be moved down to a lower setpoint by using the 131F thermostatic element, since the pump will only be released at 65c upon firing the boiler, but it does scavenge during the "afterburn off" mode(still want to know how and when).

I have to investigate this function and see if replacing the element in the pump is a worthy endeavor since I utilize very low system operating temps...(probably not enough gain/time)


Scott


----------



## ktm010 (Dec 22, 2013)

I have a question on circulator placement, when I was tying into the oil boiler pipes I was told my choice of tying in might not be the best. It was the simplest way so I went for it. It sounds like the water is turbulating and making noise which gets amplified in the pipes, and can be heard up in the house. My question is rerouting and coming around the other side and under the oil burner is possible, would this be a better choice


----------

