# Gardening question



## timfromohio (Oct 26, 2009)

I tried to post this question yesterday but it didn't work.  Try again.  

Gardening question - has anybody ever tried the "Ruth Stout" method?  Calls for no tilling and lots of mulching.  Tons of mulching actually.  The idea is to leave the underlying soil as undisturbed as possible with a steady supply of ever decaying mulch that improves soil quality, retains moisture, keeps weed growth at bay.

Wondering if anybody has tried this sort of thing and had any success, in particular on a heavy, clay-rich soil.

Thanks!


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## Tom Pencil (Oct 26, 2009)

My Dad is doing that method with a few modifications.  Not sure if he has a lot of clay in his soil but I know he likes gardening this way.  I'll give him a call and see if I can dig up more information from him.


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## timfromohio (Oct 26, 2009)

Thanks Bantam.  My wife picked up the Ruth Stout book at a library book sale.  I tilled up a new 45x55 or so new garden area last year - lots of clay.  I'm wondering if this sort of heavy mulching will help this garden area becoming more productive sooner than later.

Tipp City - I used to have to travel to Troy for work a couple of times a year and I think drive right by Tipp City!  Small world.  We're up in NEOhio, west Akron, Bath Township.


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## Tom Pencil (Oct 26, 2009)

He says that he has a lot of clay also.  Old moldy hay was his primary mulch.  His tomato plants did not grow as well as he thought they should because he says he needs to come up with a way to get the soil warm before plants are surrounded by the mulch.  Also had a problem with germinating peas and green beans.  Came up with the idea of pulling back the mulch to form a row, plant the seeds then cover with sawdust from his shop.  Watered the beans daily then when they sprouted and came thru the sawdust then he would suround the plants with mulch.  Had a problem with skunks digging up the mulch looking for worms/grubs but other than that he says its a lot less work.  Still learning the whole process as he goes but said that he will not go back to the standard way of doing gardening.


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## SolarAndWood (Oct 26, 2009)

We heavy compost/mulch and the soil we plant in has never been compacted...the tractor spans the soil and the 4' rototiller hangs down in between.  The tire/walkways are heavily wood mulched.  We were going to do winter rye/clover/vetch this year but haven't had the time, maybe next year.  Probably not what most gardeners would call working the soil, but a decent compromise for someone who wants to know where their food comes from but doesn't have a lot of time.


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## kenny chaos (Oct 26, 2009)

I always thought a rototiller compacted soil pretty darn bad.


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## SolarAndWood (Oct 26, 2009)

I think it depends on where the weight is carried and how deep you are trying to till.  We just break up the surface/turn under the plants with the rototiller and use a cultivator to go deeper.  We are strictly glacial till and clay yet have nice deep relatively well drained soil other than one spot I screwed up when constructing one of the terraces.


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## Wood Duck (Oct 26, 2009)

I have tried both the standard method of digging organic matter into the soil (I always use a shovel, not a rototiller), and the heavy mulch method. The heavy mulch approach definitely is less work per square foot, but nowhere near as fast at improving the soil, in my experience. I often grow things like pumpkins, melons, or strawberries by simply mulching the whole plot and clearing the mulch away to plant seeds (or strawberry plants) at scattered spots. I have also grown fruit bushes like raspberries, perennials, and woodland native plants this way. You certainly can improve soil this way, but it takes time. i think it worked better in Louisiana than it does here in PA, since the invertebrates in Louisiana seemed to turn the soil more rapidly than they do here. I use fall leaves, grass clippings, almost anything, but be careful with carbon rich/ nutrient poor materials like sawdust, chainsaw chips, or chipped wood, because it can deplete nitrogen in the soil if you work it in to the soil. With fall leaves, you almost can't add too much - four feet deep in the fall is only a foot or less by spring, and 6 inches by mid summer. Grass clippings are great -high in nitrogen - but they can stink if you add them too thickly all at once. I try to spread them only a couple of inches deep at a time.

So, to garden a large area with moderate work, use a heavy mulch, keep adding to it, and in a few years you'll have a great surface layer of organic matter and an improved soil beneath. To quickly improve the soil, work the organic matter into the soil, but it will be a lot more work per square foot.


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## timfromohio (Oct 27, 2009)

Bantam - thanks for checking with your dad.  His plan sounds just like the book.  As an aside, I detest skunks.  I killed 5 last year and 3 so far this year.  Neighbor across the street got 2.  We are over run with those destructive little creatures.  I wouldn't mind one or two, but I have gone outside with the dog at night only to have to grab him as a pair ran across the back driveway.  I've seen a three-pack of them chewing up the back portion of my yard and the young ones have managed to squeeze through the mesh on the garden fence.  Skunks are evil ....  

The soil I'm dealing with is clay-rich and slow to warm up and dry out in the Spring.  Last year I tilled in all the leaves I could using an old BCS walk-behind tractor (rototiller on steroids).  It doesn't seem to compact the soil too bad so long as it's dry.  Kenny - to your point, I think even if you use a small tiller like I do it's still good to run a single bottom plow or something similar to break up sub-soil compaction.  As light as my tiller is relative to a tractor, you're right - it's still got to be creating some layer of hardpan.  

SolarandWood - how large is your tractor?  

Woodduck - thanks for your suggestions.  I wouldn't mind the work of getting organic matter into the soil it's just that timing is the problem.  By the time the soil is truly workable in the Spring it's time to plant.  NEOhio typically has very wet springs which compounds the problem.  Looks like I'll try deep mulching this year.


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## SolarAndWood (Oct 27, 2009)

Older Ford, 3000 lbs somewhere around 30 hp at the pto.  It has no problem with a 4 ft tiller.  The single blade cultivator drops in and the tractor has no problems with it 18" down.  I make three runs down each row, one in the middle and then one at each end of the 3pt adjustment which is almost rubbing the tires.  Lazy mans approach but makes quick work of it.  We make big compost piles and toss them on when we clean up in the fall and when we prep in the spring.  Again, the lazy approach to composting.  Fall cleanup and spring prep is 2 or 3 hours.  Adding the 40 or so yards of wood mulch on the walkways takes some time but I would much rather mulch than weed.  The seed beds are then easy to run a hand cultivator through a couple times a week.  We use grass clippings around the plants for weed control as well.


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## colsmith (Oct 27, 2009)

I can assure you from many years of experience that the sheet composting/lasagna method of gardening works great with clay soil, and almost instantly.  Those of you that don't think so must not be putting a good variety of layers in your garden.  I use mainly layers of leaves, old produce, and horse manure, with a sprinkling of wood ashes and crushed egg shells.  I put compost on the top, and can then plant in that pretty much instantly.  The plants then grow into the decomposing materials.  The raised bed method keeps the soil warmer in the spring (things are composting, so make some of their own heat) and since it is raised up it drains better, so you can garden sooner after lots of spring rain.  

My tomato plants are always 8-10 feet tall, my flowers look like they are on steroids, etc.  I get all the leftovers from a local produce stand, so I routinely have layers of say bananas, pears, cantaloupe, cabbage leaves, cucumbers, etc. along with the leaves and horse manure.  You put layers of newspaper or cardboard down first to smother any weeds.  After a while that breaks down and the underlying soil mixes with the stuff on top, due to action from roots, water, worms, and other soil life.  I don't till anything.  That just destroys your soil structure, e.g., the air and water microchannels, and also chops up and kills earthworms.  Some worms can be cut up and live, but not earthworms, folks.

We have 8 raised beds, one is 25 ft. long, the rest are smaller.  Some people just make layers on their regular soil and sort of mound it up, but we have quack grass here, so we need a barrier between garden and not-garden.  I recommend you visit Gardenweb and their Soil, Mulch, and Compost forum, and search for "lasagna" http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/soil/


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## SolarAndWood (Oct 27, 2009)

Some Like It Hot said:
			
		

> http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/soil/



Great link Marcia, I didn't know about the Starbucks program.

There is no doubt that if you can come up with 2 ft of compost for your entire garden, it will rock.  No different I suppose than being 5 years ahead on your wood supply.  Good motivation to get my collection program going again.  Urban compost scrounging works just as well as wood scrounging.


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## timfromohio (Oct 27, 2009)

Thanks for all of the input.  I was on leaf duty again after work yesterday and am now committed to trying this method next Spring - I have about a 6" layer of shredded Maple leaves on the garden area right now.  I'll pile some grass clippings on top of that and think I've found a supply of free, composted horse manure - I'll try to get as much of that out there as well and just let everything rot down.  

SolarandWood - 4' tiller sounds awesome.  I have toyed with the idea of getting a compact diesel tractor and wondered about hp ratings.  

Marcia - thanks for the link.  I know what I'll be reading at lunch today.


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## SolarAndWood (Oct 27, 2009)

The last tractor was about 20 hp, 2wd and weighed about a ton.  Not nearly as versatile as the current one but I think the current one is too big to mow a suburban yard.  If you don't care about any serious loader work, a smaller one with industrial tires that can both mow and do the other stuff would be nice instead of having two machines.  Those little diesels are great on fuel.


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## timfromohio (Oct 27, 2009)

I was looking at older Fords (I believe same as Massey Furgeson).  Models like 1510, 1520 - they had 3 cylinder diesel motors that were rated in the low 20s for hp.  4wd.  Wasn't sure if they would have enough umph to run a bottom plow, but capable of everything else I'd like - small bucket for moving compost around, could easily run a blade for snow plowing the driveway, tiller, large belly mower, etc.


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## SolarAndWood (Oct 27, 2009)

I have a 1910, think it is early 80s.  Very capable little tractor.  The lift arms are rated for almost 2 ton and has no problem getting the butt of a hardwood tree off the ground and skidding it.  Also, has no problems with the 4' tiller, single point cultivator/hiller, 6' brush hog, 6 ft box blade, 8' york rake, small backhoe, etc.  However, unless you have a very simple open lawn, I think you would get pretty annoyed mowing with it.  The loader is fine for plowing the driveway, compost, etc but it doesn't take too much weight in it to pick the rear end of the tractor off the ground.  I run into this whenever moving rock, stone or when picking up something substantial with a chain suspended from the loader.


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## d.n.f. (Oct 27, 2009)

I just set up a garden this summer using the lasagna bed method.  Uses very little soil and has been described in this site already.

Tons of mulch and free cardboard (both from the local tree nursery).  All put in raised beds.

Will be ready to plant next year as we need some decomposition and more importantly I didn't get the deer fence up this year.

Google 'lasagna gardening'.  Tons of stuff on it.   There is most of a book on the topic online and it tells you everything you need to know.


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## timfromohio (Oct 27, 2009)

Thanks dnf - I like hearing success stories.  The garden area I'll be trying this on was mildly productive last year, but nearly as successful as I was hoping for - hopefully heavy mulching will help.


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## Rick (Oct 27, 2009)

About 5 years ago I filled in an area about 2' deep with wood chips.  Not for a garden but to fill in a low area.  Those chips have broken down into the darkest, best looking soil on my property.  I had notions of digging the soil out and moving it to my garden but I never got around to it.  I also tried an experiment last year where I covered a 20X10 area with a dump truck load of leaves.  Just last week I raked back the remaining leaves (which rotted down to about 10% of the initial volume) to reveal a very rich soil, but only an inch or so deep at ground level.  I'm going to till that area up this fall and cover it with another dump truck load to see what happens next year.  The problem with my soil is that it is hard like a rock, and is filled with rocks, so at some point I have to dig to give the roots somewhere to go.


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## SolarAndWood (Oct 27, 2009)

Or do raised beds...a lot of people swear by them.


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## timfromohio (Oct 28, 2009)

SolarandWood - do you mean raised beds without sides to them?  That might work but I would have to bring in a lot of growing medium - I'm afraid if I mounded up what I have available to me I'd be creating canals in the walkways in between the beds since the clay-rich soil is slow to drain.


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## timfromohio (Oct 28, 2009)

PS - the root cause of this problem is greedy land developers.  Apparently even back in the 1970s when our neighborhood was built the good top soil was trucked out.  I saw that first hand when we lived in Columbus - the neighborhood there had been a corn field.  What was left of the chemically-saturated top soil was scooped up and taken away.  Houses built and sod laid down on top of hard clay.  I probably wouldn't have wanted that dirt anyway ...  

I have many options, but all revolve around getting as much good organic matter into the soil as possible.  

Rick - I have been using woodchips from cutting as well as sawdust on the path in this garden area - if I have extra, I'll just throw them in the mix on the rest of the garden.  2' is a lot of wood chips - wow.


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## SolarAndWood (Oct 28, 2009)

timfromohio said:
			
		

> SolarandWood - do you mean raised beds without sides to them?  That might work but I would have to bring in a lot of growing medium - I'm afraid if I mounded up what I have available to me I'd be creating canals in the walkways in between the beds since the clay-rich soil is slow to drain.



I have no experience with raised beds, but Marcia's link talked about 2 ft of compost material over sod which would suggest that Rick might never have to dig it up if he got enough compost material.

I would probably never do raised beds because I find the tractor to be a huge advantage in garden prep/cleanup.  It makes it trivial.

We have clay and glacial till.  If you break it up with a cultivator/subsoiler and add compost, it does fine.  We added a terrace this spring and it is full of strawberries, raspberries, blackberries, herbs, pumpkins and 10 ft tall sunflowers in its first year.  Clay isn't the end of the world.


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## colsmith (Oct 28, 2009)

Once you get a raised bed made and filled, maintenance is low.  After a few years they only subside about an inch a year, and that is easily made up each fall w/leaves and horse manure or compost on top (they hold the leaves down and help them rot).  You just pull the weeds and old plants out easily, as the soil you have created is so light and fluffy.  Quack grass is my main foe, other weeds don't make it under the raised beds. 

Fortunately it is much easier to scrounge garden materials than firewood.  Most municipalities have free wood chips, some even have free compost.  Both work well in raised beds.  I would put the wood chips on the bottom, and be sure to put something with more nitrogen on them, like manure or coffee grounds.  I brought home my first bag of other people's leaves today, while I was out shopping in my tiny car.  I usually get a few truckloads each fall, for my raised beds and to stockpile for mixing with the old produce in my compost piles.  Used coffee grounds, animal manure, grass clippings, lots of these things are easy to obtain.  Just lift the grass clipping and leaves in their bags at the curb.  Old fruit and veg seems to be particularly nutritious, but that may be harder to get.  Ask at a local farmer's market or ?

My raised beds vary from about 8" to 15" tall.  I use exclusively free materials for them, with the exception of screws to hold lumber together.  3 raised beds are plastic children's pools with small holes cut into the sides for drainage.  One bed is literally that, an old waterbed frame I scavenged from a friend's burn pile.  One is random scrap lumber, another is from some hinged boards that were support for something packed on a pallet, a friend saved them at work for me.  The best one is the wood that formerly went all the way around playground equipment at my brother's former house, the new owners didn't want it.  Another is surrounded by concrete bricks.  Got everything from friends or on freecycle or people's trash.

My garden is phenomenal.  This year many friends reported trouble with tomatoes, some kind of blight, but that barely slowed mine down.  Last year I had a really impressive eggplant yield from 3 plants in a raised bed, while the control in regular dirt had one eggplant.  We have clay, not from developers stealing topsoil, but because we are on a slight slope.  The neighbors down the road by the river got most of our topsoil years ago. 

No tilling means no fumes, no buying fuel, no compacting the soil with heavy equipment.   Tractors and things are needed for large scale crop production, but for family sized gardens they are best avoided.  If you have nice decomposing mulch, why till it in?  Air, water, worms, bugs, and roots will mix it for you without compacting the soil.  No-till is an increasing trend in gardening, since it lets the soil fungus develop that helps spread water and nutrients to your plants' roots, plus doesn't disturb the air and water channels that develop over time.


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## timfromohio (Oct 28, 2009)

SLIH - I have a lot of experienced with raised beds that have sides to them - we currently have a setup with 13 beds like this that are excellent.  For this new garden area, I was thinking of much larger raised bed areas that are simply mounded up withouth defined sides.  The problem we have had with the raised beds we already have is that they just don't lend themselves to growing things like corn or squash.  I've found that you just need more space than provided by a conventional raised bed which is why we expanded and created another garden area to be dedicated to conventional "row" type growing.  While we have successfully grown both corn and squash in our raised beds, we wanted more square footage for blocks of each.  Also, since the squash vines go everywhere I was hoping to try "3 sisters", well maybe just "2 sisters" if I can get the soil fertile enough (3 sisters is corn, beans, squash all interplanted - corn is used as a natural trellice for the squash, beans adding nitrogen to the soil)

Hopefully the clay will be a blessing in the long term - it's full of nutrients, just needs to be ammended to aid in drainage.  I know that the Amish farmers in our area prefer clay-rich soil due to its long-term potential productivity.

Thanks for all of the continued comments and suggestions.


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## jebatty (Oct 28, 2009)

I've got really bad soil, mostly sand with not much organic matter. For starters I did 2 - 5' x 25' plots with a walking aisle between them using the "double dug" method and bio-intensive plantings. Each spring I add about 1-2" of good compost on top, lightly raked but not incorporated into the soil. No tilling at all. Never walk on the garden soil itself, use a board to stand on if I have to stand on the garden, so as not to compact the soil. But with 5' width, can reach in pretty well from each side. No fertiliers, herbicides, etc. Bio-intensive reduces weeding to about zero. Amazingly productive. A 5' x 5' patch of carrots (just scattered the seeds and no thinning) produced 15 lbs. And with the loose soil, they pulled right out. Also got radishes, lettuce, green beans (7 lbs. into the freezer plus what we ate), broccoli, 22 winter squash harvested, and cucumbers. Each year I rotate my crops into different areas of the 2 patches.


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## SolarAndWood (Oct 28, 2009)

timfromohio said:
			
		

> I was thinking of much larger raised bed areas that are simply mounded up withouth defined sides.



That is exactly what we do.  They are 15 of them 4' wide ranging 80 - 100 ft long with 9 inches or so of wood mulch in between for people and equipment travel.  

The irrigation system is fed by garden hose, split by valves and then distributed by soaker hoses down each row.  It gets laid out in the spring and rolled up before the fall cleanup.


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## timfromohio (Oct 28, 2009)

SolarandWood - that is a sweet setup - I remember the pics you posted - very nice looking.  Do you have a well?  Irrigation is a problem for us as we're on a well and it's quite distance from a spigot at the house to the new garden area.  The raised beds are served by two 75 gallon rain barrels, although you'd be surprised how fast you can go through 150 gallons of water.  I'm considering either (1) more rain barrels or (2) driving a shallow well in the back of the property for the new garden area - hopefully this area will be expanded in the future.  While I'll always maintain a certain amount of space for my kids to play, we still have so much yard in grass it's ridiculous - I want to till it up, graze sheep on it, something other than lawn ...


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## SolarAndWood (Oct 28, 2009)

We are on a municipal water line that I think ends around the corner at the fire house.  Our family's camp is fed by a spring and I am no longer surprised by how quickly you can go through water.  

I was out at my friends farm this past weekend.  He had a tank there that was probably 10x10x3 that he said wasn't that expensive.  Not sure how much roof you have to collect with, but gravity seems to be the cheapest way to collect and move water.  Pretty reliable as well.


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## d.n.f. (Oct 28, 2009)

I made raised beds out of cinder blocks and used the lasagna technique with only one dump truck of soil.   It is a large raised bed.  Leaves, grass cuttings, tree farm dumpings, and tons and tons of non-waxed cardboard.  It is looking pretty good (did in the spring) and will be ready by next spring.  As soon as I finish the deer fence.......


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## SolarAndWood (Oct 28, 2009)

The deer fence is key.  We tried the live and let live thing the first year.  Just had well fed deer and more little ones the next.  As much as we didn't want a fence, there was no use fighting it.


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## timfromohio (Oct 28, 2009)

I'd recommend a multitude of tactics be used together to combat fattening the local wildlife off your garden.  I currently have 5 foot high chain link fence with bushes planted in front of it around one raised bed garden area.  While deer can easily jump 5 feet (I've seen them jump 7 or 8 and it looked easy), I think they are hesitant to jump if they can't see where they are landing.  The thick bushes obstruct a clear view of just where they'd be landing and I've never had a deer in that garden area.  I did have small rabbits squeeze under the gate and one just about squeeze through the chain link fence itself.  Beefing up the bottom of the gate solved the rabbit problems and I've had no trouble with any unwanted wildlife in that area.  

Around the new garden area I put up 6 foot t-posts, so they are sticking out of the ground 5 feet.  I have 3 foot, supposedly "rabbit proof", fencing around the entire area (which also houses my berry patch - two rows of blueberries, 1 row each of blackberries and red raspberries) and a single electric line at the top.  This kept out the deer for awhile.  They then started sticking their heads through the space between the top of the 3' wire mesh fencing and the electric line which is at the 5' level.  They pruned all the of the blueberry bushes that they could reach using this technique.  They then became more brazen and started jumping the fence.  I actually saw a doe out there one day and sprinted out with a handful of gravel to pitch at her.  She ran and actually dove BETWEEN the 2' opening created by the top of the wire mesh fence and the single electric line with complete outstretched legs so that her hooves touched neither fence.  While a rather cool move, still very irritating.  So, I'm stringing another electric line at the 4' level and looking into some way to add height to the posts without having to buy all new posts so that I can string some fish line around the 6' or 7' level.  To this I plan on attaching pieces of tin foil, old CD's, anything that will move in the breeze and hopefully deter them from approaching the fence.  Concurrently, I'm looking into purchasing a crossbow.  Bow season is long up here in Ohio and you are allowed to hunt on your own property with relatively little hassal.  While my wife is not a big fan of venison, I work with a number of guys that are fans and would appreciate the meat.  Also considering a pellet gun or something non-lethal to pop them with in the hopes that they might get into their minds that my backyard is simply a bad place and chose not to venture there.  I've encouraged my dog to chase them, but he's way too lazy and knows he has no chance of catching them so doesn't really put out any effort in that department.  Plus, during rutting season he might wind up getting chased and injured.

We've also been innundated with skunks which I detest.  I shoot them on sight.  They are incredibly destructive.  Same with rabbits.


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## SolarAndWood (Oct 28, 2009)

Now were talkin, lock and load.  How'd we get there from Ruth Stout?  Anyway, I found that 8 ft t posts, with 7' polypro mesh and 4 ft wire fencing around the bottom seems to do the trick 3 years running knock on something.  I see them out there.  First they get their nose in the mesh, back up, try to go under and get the wire in their nose, check the rest of the fence line, then wander off.  A few chipmunks have their way with it but most of them even give up.

The really nice thing about the t posts is you can quickly pop one side of the fence out to do the spring prep/fall cleanup with the tractor.


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## timfromohio (Oct 28, 2009)

This thread must somehow come full circle to sipping beer while stove-watching ...


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## SolarAndWood (Oct 28, 2009)

Didn't have a fire last night, but did have a beer while sitting in an Adirondack chair in the middle of the garden enjoying the view of the sunset and the seasoning heap.


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## timfromohio (Oct 28, 2009)

Sounds very nice.  We didn't have a fire either, but I did enjoy a fine pale ale as it was taco night.  Must have a nice beer on taco night!


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## Gooserider (Oct 29, 2009)

Any good suggestions for growing advice / how to sites...  I've been doing gardens now for 2-3 years with very mixed results...  The soil I was on had a lot of clay, gravel, and sand, plus the usual New England crop of rocks, and more than a few tree roots.  It isn't great for sunlight (to many trees, plus roots), but all of it does get full sun for at least part of the day...  

No deer in the yard that I know of, and haven't ever seen sign of them, although we have seen them within a few blocks of the house.  However we definitely have skunks, possums, groundhogs, squirrels, chipmunks and rabbits by visual siting...  

This year I decided to pretty much give up on the existing soil, even after tilling in a lot of compost and manure, plus wood ashes, it still seemed like pretty lousy crop soil.  We had a porch that got "avalanched" off the side of the house, and I dismantled it and used the decking boards to make raised beds on top of the old garden.  Ended up with about 150' worth of 3' wide bed, broken up into rows about 2' apart.  The beds were filled with a layer of chopped leaves / unfinished compost from the pile I started last fall, topped with a layer of finished compost that I got from a friend. 

Surrounded it with a fence of 4' high wire mesh on T-poles, with about 1' flat along the ground sticking out, with lots of rocks on it, and 3' up the poles.  It seems to have stopped the worst of the critters - my basil dissappeared, and something did in the lettuce and kept the brocoli trimmed back for much of the season, but I didn't see any other signs of critter munching, and it may have been the bugs that got the stuff...

The GF and I are low-carbers, so we tend to avoid most root vegetables, and corn, but we both like peppers, I'm fond of hots, and she likes bells.  This year I planted 15 varieties of peppers, one flat of each, zuchini, summer squash, and a middle eastern zuchinni variant called "cousa magda" I also did a flat of onion starters, some herbs, and some lettuce...  

I created a trellis system for the peppers that I copied from a friend that is noted for his tomatoes - I put in vertical pipes about 10' apart and 4-5' high along each row.  Across their tops, I ran 3/4" thin wall electric conduit, holding it in place with a wrap of stiff wire into the top of each pipe, and splicing the pieces together with 1' lengths of 1/2" conduit.  I tied a wire along the pipes about 4" up, and ran a string (used the free load tieing twine from Home Despot and Sloews) between the wire and the pipe at each plant.  As the plants grew, I wrapped the twine around the main stems to support them, and tied the heavier branches to the stems with recycled "lettuce velcro".

The herbs mostly did pretty well except that the basil dissappeared completely.

The lettuce did fair, we got a few salads worth, and then it sort of got buried by the cousa-magda squash.  However it never developed "heads" as such, and I don't think I got as much as I would have gotten if I'd spent as much in the grocery store produce dept.  (This sums up most of the veggies actually...)

The Cousa Magdas did fair, especially considering that I didn't have any planting suggestions for them, and put them in at "summer squash" spacing, I should have done them w/ zuchini spacing.  I also got a few summer squash.  I didn't get ANY zuchinnis.  All three of the squash varieties had loads of blossoms, but it seemed like very few turned into fruits.

I planted the peppers alternating hot and sweet varieties, figuring that would help me tell them apart, which it would have, if all of them grew out well.  Instead, I found that all the hots except the Habaneros did good to excellent, especially the Super Chillies and the Kung Pao's...  I probably have at least 2-3 grocery bags full of assorted hots.

The sweets did poor to fair at best - I did get a good harvest off the Cubanelles, and a fair number of Italias, but the rest were on the order of 1-2 peppers per variety, if that...  Chopping and freezing them I ended up with about 1quart of peppers, and probably got about the same amount that I had used as they came in.

Some of the plants didn't grow all that well, but most took off after a slow start, and ended up close to or over the top of the trellis top pipe.  Once again, I had lots of flowers, but not anywhere near as many peppers...

The onions looked like most all of them grew out, but the ones I've pulled out were not much bigger than my thumb - these were supposed to be yellow onions that should have been about 3-4" diameter...

I'm underwhelmed by these results to say the least...  I probably could have gotten as much produce at the local supermarket for the money I spent on just the plants, let alone the other stuff, and the time and work I put in...  Any good sites on suggestions to find out what I'm not doing right that is making some stuff grow and other stuff not???

I'm not fanatically organic, but I have been trying to minimize the amount of artificial stuff that I use on the garden.  I do put most of my wood ashes on the soil or the compost pile, otherwise the only chemicals I've been using has been slug killer - I had tremendous numbers of slugs this season, and it was frustrating cause every time I put out the slug stuff it would rain...

Gooserider


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## Bobbin (Oct 29, 2009)

Dedicated raised bed gardeners here.  The vegetable garden is all raised beds (rough cut 2x12" hemlock, binned on the inside to deter decay), 4'w x 8'l and the ground soil was double dug 12-14" deep, so the beds are actually about 24" deep.  We compost all vegetable matter and other garden debris.  We've been at this for close to 20 yrs. now and I can attest to the results.  

Trellising things like cucumbers or squashes at the north end of the beds allows good sunshine and keeps them contained.  We have expanded the garden area this year.  We've been MOFGA members for many, many moons now.  (Maine Organic Farmer and Gardener Assoc.).  They are a terrific organization and are a wealth of information.  

I have friends who swear by the "lasagne method" of reclaiming areas for planting though I've never tried it.  I think I may give it a whirl along the pond as a way to choke out some out of control vegetation, build the soil, and prepare it for an ornamental planting.


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## SolarAndWood (Oct 29, 2009)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> topped with a layer of finished compost that I got from a friend.



I think especially on these sites that didn't have soil to begin with, compost is everything.  We doubled the size of the garden this year and the new terrace that got preferential treatment did noticeably better.  I have the clay broken up down to where the glacial till is like concrete. I can actually feel the sub soiler pick up the 3 pt arms while it rides on top of it.  That is between 9 and 12 inches down which is more than twice we had when we started 4 years ago.  As the depth and organic material grows, we get better drainage and results.  

Do the tomatoes not go more than 5' high or is that just a manageable harvesting height?  What does he do for plant spacing?


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## timfromohio (Oct 29, 2009)

Gooserider - were you looking for websites on gardening?  If so, check out www.homesteadingtoday.com - excellent forum with a great gardening section.  I also like the following blogs on gardening and small-scale sustainability:

http://onestraw.wordpress.com/

http://thedeliberateagrarian.blogspot.com/

Do you start your stuff from seed or purchase plants?  We start everything from seed and are strictly organic.  The primary fertilizer we use is fish emulsion based.  

First off, don't get discouraged.  This past year was the first year that I successfully grew peppers from seed at our current homestead.  Previous couple of years they were leggy and pooped-out after a few weeks in the ground.  My advice in peppers if you're growing them from seed.  Start them early and use a heating mat for germination.  This really helped us.  Don't set them out too early and when you do consider row tunnels to help keep them warm, especially where you are.  Here in NEOhio we are zone 5b - I'm assuming you are probably the same.  Lettuce - start early in the season.  Will bolt easily once the warmth of summer comes,  You can get two crops if you want - Spring and Fall.  This coming year, I plan on tyring to continue growing through the summer but will use an angled trellice to shade it - hoping I can get cukes to grow up the angled trellice and shade the lettuce.  Also, look for heat tolerant varieties.  What variety were you growing?  My experience is that most leaf lettuces are not too picky with soil conditions.  

As for places to get seed, I like Baker Creek Heirloom Seeds and Seed Savers Exchange.  Check them out and in the very least send off for a catalogue to go through in the winter while sitting by the stove.

In general, I think success hinges on soil fertility and condition.  If it's fertile and drains well, the plants will do well.  This may take a few years to do, but the effort will be worth it.  Admittedly it's hard to be patient - I'm not patient which is why I started this thread searching for ways to accelerate the process of improving the soil in our expanded garden area.


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## SolarAndWood (Oct 29, 2009)

For composting a big garden, the biggest accelerator for us was buying a dump trailer and a silage fork.  Unless you are moving that kind of quantity, I don't know how you would ever compost more than a small garden unless you have a lot of time to devote to it.


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## kenny chaos (Oct 29, 2009)

One thing I learned when gardening is that many people
spent their time doing other things while waiting for my veggies to come in.
I once told my doctor I was growing lazier as I grew older
and he responded that we get more efficient.
I now just keep a couple containers going and enjoy the fruits
of my neighbors labor with no guilt.
Do a good job. ;-P


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## SolarAndWood (Oct 29, 2009)

Kenny, do you rent out the 80 acres?


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## kenny chaos (Oct 29, 2009)

SolarAndWood said:
			
		

> Kenny, do you rent out the 80 acres?





You had to ask.
Beginning next year I believe I will be renting it all out.
If I may be so bold as to think I can offer some advice;
Do what you want to do today.
Tomorrow may never come.
I just learned that I lost a very young friend
last night in a car crash.
More importantly, over time, your chances of
unexpected problems increase tremendously.
I was pretty leery about taking out a 30 year
mortgage at 35 but I figured I'd never be able to
retire anyways so I was looking forward to working the farm
till my time came.
Who knew that at 50 my body would start making my decisions for me.
I fight tooth and nail to keep going but it's sliding away.
We may (probably should) sell the land to pay off the mortgage
but I can't make that desicison just yet.
Life IS short.
A buddy told me the other day that he likes to spend his money
on what he wants, otherwise, he has to spend it on things he needs. :lol:


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## colebrookman (Oct 29, 2009)

I'm not fanatically organic, but I have been trying to minimize the amount of artificial stuff that I use on the garden.  I do put most of my wood ashes on the soil or the compost pile, otherwise the only chemicals I've been using has been slug killer - I had tremendous numbers of slugs this season, and it was frustrating cause every time I put out the slug stuff it would rain...

Gooserider[/quote]
Gooserider you're heading in the right direction.  Farming, like burning wood has a learning curve and like here on the forum you learn something new every day.  This was a bad year because of the rains which spread disease and slugs everywhere.  NY state was hit even harder than us.  My peppers  and tomatoes did poorly, green squash, peas, beans, spinach, swiss chard did great.  Raised beds are the key for me.  Suggestions; go easy on the wood ash, test your soil before using and the a little goes a long way.  If you add it to compost and then to your garden you could end up with way to much.  Keep it separate.  Critters love lettuce so cover the bed with narrow opening wire fencing attached to bendable plastic pipe.  Cheap and reusable.  Don't bother starting from seed in the house at first, just by a six pack and plant early then replant from seed directly in the beds.  Plant spinach, swiss chard and peas as soon as you can.  Have the bed all set to go.  Buy dwarf peas, get some 4ft. wire or netting and they will climb easily.  For slugs, small plastic containers buried at soil level and fill with cheap beer works great.  Also old boards laid on the paths between beds will attract slugs at night to be squished in the morning.  For onions go to your farmers market right now and buy a 25lb bag along with winter keeping potatoes and enjoy.  Scallions and chives are easy to grow and come back yearly.  The life of a farmer,as we know, is a challenge.

Be safe.
Ed


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## timfromohio (Oct 29, 2009)

Kenny - my condolences on the loss of your friend.


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## Bobbin (Oct 29, 2009)

Yes, Kenny, my condolences, too.  I just lost a very dear fried to suicide and it really has me thinking about what it all means in the big picture.   Like today, for instance.  Not much of great importance happenin' at work, it's beautiful outdoors and the dog and I are going to do some perennial gardening clean up while we dose up on vitamin D.  

You are right about doing what you want to do now; this thing we call life is no dress rehearsal.


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## SolarAndWood (Oct 29, 2009)

Sorry for your loss Kenny and thanks as always for sharing your advice.


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## DBoon (Oct 30, 2009)

Hi Gooserider, you may want to get a soil test for nitrogen, potassium and phosphorous.  You can by an inexpensive kit, or pay $3-$5 for your local extension office to do one for you.   The deficiency of one major nutrient could lead to really poor yields.  Just a thought.


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## Gooserider (Oct 30, 2009)

Feels kind of wierd to be getting back to gardening after Kenny's posts, but...  At any rate condolences.

To take stuff in order...

Solar & Wood - 





> I think especially on these sites that didn’t have soil to begin with, compost is everything.  We doubled the size of the garden this year and the new terrace that got preferential treatment did noticeably better.  I have the clay broken up down to where the glacial till is like concrete. I can actually feel the sub soiler pick up the 3 pt arms while it rides on top of it.  That is between 9 and 12 inches down which is more than twice we had when we started 4 years ago.  As the depth and organic material grows, we get better drainage and results.


I think you are right, I know my friend certainly has results to show for it - he's been growing tomatoes for years in a lot of the same ground, and expanded the plot by several rows, built up with a foot or two of compost...  The existing garden got about 4" of added compost - When he planted he put row covers over several of the existing area rows, but not over the new ones - but the newer rows WAY outperformed the older rows over the course of the season - bigger, bushier plants, and many more tomatoes.



> Do the tomatoes not go more than 5’ high or is that just a manageable harvesting height?  What does he do for plant spacing?


My friend has taller pipes - he has gotten his from salvage and accumulation over several generations, his are about 7-8' long, and  ends up with about 6' sticking out of the ground.  I was purchasing, and I found the best deal was the 10' long pipes sold as top rails for chain link fence, cutting them in half on an angle gave me about 5' lengths, which ended up sticking out of the ground about 4' after I drove them in far enough not to wobble...

When the tomatoes get to the tops of his pipes he breaks off the leader, both for harvesting convenience and because it encourages the plants to put their energy into making 'maters instead of more plant...  His spacing is about 30" or so between plants, it works out that he gets three plants between each pair of pipes that are spaced 10' apart.  I believe he does 5' between rows.

Tim 





> Do you start your stuff from seed or purchase plants?  We start everything from seed and are strictly organic.  The primary fertilizer we use is fish emulsion based.


First off, thanks for the links, I will be checking them out shortly...
I've been purchasing plants, the last few years almost all have come from "Griggs" a local farmer / nursery that has been growing stuff in town for at least a couple generations.  I don't really have a good place to do seed starting, and the times I've tried it hasn't worked very well...  I haven't been using any fertilizer beyond the compost and wood ash.  I have been doing slug control using some stuff called "Escargo" from Gardens Alive, but not all that much.  Towards mid season I did get kind of desperate and hit the garden with some Sevin spray as well, but that was considerably before doing any harvesting.

[/quote]First off, don’t get discouraged.  This past year was the first year that I successfully grew peppers from seed at our current homestead.  Previous couple of years they were leggy and pooped-out after a few weeks in the ground.  My advice in peppers if you’re growing them from seed.  Start them early and use a heating mat for germination.  This really helped us.  Don’t set them out too early and when you do consider row tunnels to help keep them warm, especially where you are.  Here in NEOhio we are zone 5b - I’m assuming you are probably the same.  Lettuce - start early in the season.  Will bolt easily once the warmth of summer comes,  You can get two crops if you want - Spring and Fall.  This coming year, I plan on tyring to continue growing through the summer but will use an angled trellice to shade it - hoping I can get cukes to grow up the angled trellice and shade the lettuce.  Also, look for heat tolerant varieties.  What variety were you growing?  My experience is that most leaf lettuces are not too picky with soil conditions. [/quote] 

We are about 20 miles south of the MA / NH border, which is the line between two zones, 4 & 5 if I recall correctly.  I have been trying to get the plants in the ground as soon as I think we are past the last frost - which is also about as early as Griggs has them for sale - my theory has been that given our relatively short growing season, the earlier I get them in the ground, the more time they have to grow...  I haven't been doing row covers so far, but I've been thinking about it.  I was growing a bunch of different lettuce varieties, I remember Romaine, Iceberg, Boston, Red Leaf, I think Michigan, one or two others that I forget offhand.  Haven't tried cukes, neither the GF nor I are all that fond of them.

[/quote]As for places to get seed, I like Baker Creek Heirloom Seeds and Seed Savers Exchange.  Check them out and in the very least send off for a catalogue to go through in the winter while sitting by the stove.[/quote]
Will have to look at them, although I'm not sure about doing seeds from scratch as I mentioned...  The other thing that makes me less into seeds is that I seem to grow a small number of a lot of different varieties - most seed stuff I've seen seems to be targeted more towards growing a lot of one variety - and I hate the thought of wasting the seeds that I didn't plant...
[/quote]In general, I think success hinges on soil fertility and condition.  If it’s fertile and drains well, the plants will do well.  This may take a few years to do, but the effort will be worth it.  Admittedly it’s hard to be patient - I’m not patient which is why I started this thread searching for ways to accelerate the process of improving the soil in our expanded garden area.[/quote]

This is getting long, so will continue in the next.  I am also enclosing a few pix from when I was getting stuff started this spring...


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## Gooserider (Oct 30, 2009)

Continuing...

Colebrookman, 





> Gooserider you’re heading in the right direction.  Farming, like burning wood has a learning curve and like here on the forum you learn something new every day.  This was a bad year because of the rains which spread disease and slugs everywhere.  NY state was hit even harder than us.  My peppers and tomatoes did poorly, green squash, peas, beans, spinach, swiss chard did great.  Raised beds are the key for me.  Suggestions; go easy on the wood ash, test your soil before using and the a little goes a long way.  If you add it to compost and then to your garden you could end up with way to much.  Keep it separate.  Critters love lettuce so cover the bed with narrow opening wire fencing attached to bendable plastic pipe.  Cheap and reusable.  Don’t bother starting from seed in the house at first, just by a six pack and plant early then replant from seed directly in the beds.  Plant spinach, swiss chard and peas as soon as you can.  Have the bed all set to go.  Buy dwarf peas, get some 4ft. wire or netting and they will climb easily.  For slugs, small plastic containers buried at soil level and fill with cheap beer works great.  Also old boards laid on the paths between beds will attract slugs at night to be squished in the morning.  For onions go to your farmers market right now and buy a 25lb bag along with winter keeping potatoes and enjoy.  Scallions and chives are easy to grow and come back yearly.  The life of a farmer,as we know, is a challenge.


I may need to do more testing, but it is really expensive here in MA - at least the only place I've found that does it is UMASS and they want something like $20 / test  :bug: My home testing, which I did on the soil, but not the compost, showed that I was a bit on the acid side, and needed more basic stuff which is why I was doing the ashes...  I may do something different with this years batch I guess.

Project for this fall is to run more of my leaves / partially composted stuff through the shredder and fill the beds back up to the top, maybe a little over.  When I filled them this spring they were up to the top, but they've settled about half way over the course of the year...  I haven't decided whether or not I'm going to try to get some more "Llammadoo" from my bee supply lady to throw in the beds or not, probably wouldn't hurt if I did.

I may try the fencing over the lettuce, and some of the other plants as you suggested.  Part of it is a question of figuring out what both grows well and that the GF and I like to eat...

Dboon 





> Hi Gooserider, you may want to get a soil test for nitrogen, potassium and phosphorous.  You can by an inexpensive kit, or pay $3-$5 for your local extension office to do one for you.  The deficiency of one major nutrient could lead to really poor yields.  Just a thought.


I wish I could get testing for that little...  It is really a pain that there don't seem to be reasonably priced alternatives in MA...

Gooserider


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## timfromohio (Oct 30, 2009)

Gooserider - if you're that far north I'd definetly recommend row covers, clotches, and maybe even covering the soil with black pastic in the Spring before you plant to help it warm up sooner.  There's a great book called "Four Season Harvest" by Elliot Coleman - the guy lives in Maine and has incredible gardens.  He uses moveable greenhouses - I know that way beyond what you're probably looking to do, but he has a lot of good ideas that are applicable to your situation since you both live up in similar garden zones.  See if you can get it from the your library.

I echo the recommendations to get a soil test - great idea.  

One other question - how much sun does your garden area get?  It looks from the pics (nice beds btw) that it might be a bit shaded.  I would think, especially up where you are, the more sun the better.  You could always harvest some of those trees in the background!


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## Wood Duck (Oct 30, 2009)

I use raised beds, but they are not a solution to every problem. Here on my rocky, clayey, limestone-based soil we have excessive drainage, and raised beds only seem to accentuate the dry conditions. Another problem I have seen with raised beds occurs when sandy, light soil is piled on top of clay - this was a common situation in Baton Rouge. You'd hire a landscaper to plant shrubs, and they would plant them on a turtle-back mound of sandy soil over your native play. The sand dries out fast, so you'd water often, and the water would immediately sink down to the clay and keep it saturated all the time, so you shrubs would never root below the imported soil becaue the saturated, anoxic soil is unsuitable for most plants. After a few years, they would start to die as they got too large for the limited amount of soil available for them to root. By that time, you're convinced that they were planted properly and it must have been disease, your fault, etc. that resulting in the death of your plants.

I am not saying that raised beds are a bad idea, just be aware that they don't solve all problems. Mine don't have anything holding up the sides. I like to be able to easily turn them over, change shape, etc. and sides make those things a little tougher. Also, I'd have to find material for the sides.


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## Gooserider (Oct 30, 2009)

timfromohio said:
			
		

> Gooserider - if you're that far north I'd definetly recommend row covers, clotches, and maybe even covering the soil with black pastic in the Spring before you plant to help it warm up sooner.  There's a great book called "Four Season Harvest" by Elliot Coleman - the guy lives in Maine and has incredible gardens.  He uses moveable greenhouses - I know that way beyond what you're probably looking to do, but he has a lot of good ideas that are applicable to your situation since you both live up in similar garden zones.  See if you can get it from the your library.


Well I could certainly do that black landscape fabric - I was thinking about that anyway for weed control, and if I layed it out early enough, it should help warm the soil, probably the row covers would help as well, just have to figure out what size to get that would work with my row layout.  



> I echo the recommendations to get a soil test - great idea.



Will keep looking I guess, see if there are alternatives to UMass...  I have friends in NH, maybe they can get testing done cheaper?



> One other question - how much sun does your garden area get?  It looks from the pics (nice beds btw) that it might be a bit shaded.  I would think, especially up where you are, the more sun the better.  You could always harvest some of those trees in the background!


It is on the shady side, problem is the GF likes the trees.  There are also a lot of trees across the road that I can't touch because they are on town land...  I would say that with the current situation, all of the garden gets at least a couple hours a day of full sun, and partial sun the rest of the time.  Ironically though, the areas that I think get the most sun were among the ones that seemed to have done worst...

Gooserider


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## colsmith (Oct 31, 2009)

Gooserider, as for your onions, sounds like you planted them too deep.  If not enough of the onion is above ground, they just do the green onion thing and the leaves grow a lot, but not the bulb.  It has to be mostly out of the ground for a good sized bulb to develop.  Could also be they didn't get enough sun.  Onions love sunlight.

As I said in an earlier post in this thread, Gardenweb is an excellent site for all sorts of gardening questions, whether about compost, tomatoes, fruit trees, whatever.  They have a gazillion different forums.  I recommend "Soil, Compost and Mulch" the most for raised bed info, but the vegetable forum is great, too.  I learned a lot about growing and harvesting garlic and potatoes there and in the Allium forum.  Then the Harvest forum is helpful with canning and preserving and things.

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/cornucop/  is the vegetable forum.


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## SolarAndWood (Oct 31, 2009)

Some Like It Hot said:
			
		

> If not enough of the onion is above ground, they just do the green onion thing and the leaves grow a lot, but not the bulb.  It has to be mostly out of the ground for a good sized bulb to develop.  Could also be they didn't get enough sun.  Onions love sunlight.



I thought it was bizarre how high the onions are out of the ground the first year we grew them.  We tripled out production of them this year because they are so easy and so good.  When they are small, it seems you have to really stay on the weeds as they do seem to like sun.  However, if you space the rows wide enough for your favorite cultivator, it isn't too hard to do.  After they get going, we mulch with grass clippings and don't do much else other than consume them.


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## timfromohio (Oct 31, 2009)

Maybe I've been putting my onions in too deep as well.  I've used purchased sets the past two years and was unimpressed with the size of the finished product.


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## SolarAndWood (Oct 31, 2009)

Tim, we use starts for the onions and barely cover the bottom with soil.  We did white red and yellow this year.  All seemed to do fine in clay with compost mixed in.


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## Gooserider (Oct 31, 2009)

The onions I was using, according to the tag were "yellow giants", 100-120 days to maturity, 3-4" diameter...  They came in a cardboard tray looking like a batch of chives.  I dropped the dirt and plants into a bucket of water in order to wash the dirt out and make the plants easier to pull apart.  I planted them a couple of inches deep, on about a 4-5" grid pattern - stick finger in soil, drop plant in, cover, move a handspan over and repeat.  
I tried to stay reasonably on top of weeding them.  I noticed that the green tops never seemed to get more than a few inches high at a time and then got kind of floppy and would just straggle across the ground.

When I was harvesting yesterday, I would say average was less than an inch in diameter.  Most of the bulbs were sticking out of the ground anywhere from 1/8 to 1/2 their diameter, (which surprised me, but I let them do their own thing...) and it didn't seem to make a lot of difference in the size about how far out they were...

Gooserider


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## dougstove (Oct 31, 2009)

If there alot of skunks, it might mean alot of soil grubs.  Around here, the skunks are thick but I like them because they eat the various june bug larva and other grubs that damage roots.


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## Bobbin (Oct 31, 2009)

The Garden Web is a wonderful resource.  I've been a contributing member since 2001 and mourned the day Spike sold out to iVillage.  The result of that transaction was a dive in the quality of participation and an overall "net loss" of valued members.  Many treasured and valued professionals "submerged" never to resurface.  Mercifully, I managed to cultivate something akin to "relationships" with some of them and know where to seek them out in related gardening forums.  

Several forums have remained relatively unscathed in the years hence, but the overall quality of the discussions has plummetted since the sale.  You can time it; every ding-dong in the world turns up in May wondering when they should plant their bulbs...


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## DBoon (Oct 31, 2009)

Hi Gooserider, you may want to get a soil test for nitrogen, potassium and phosphorous.  You can by an inexpensive kit, or pay $3-$5 for your local extension office to do one for you.  The deficiency of one major nutrient could lead to really poor yields.  Just a thought.


> I wish I could get testing for that little…  It is really a pain that there don’t seem to be reasonably priced alternatives in MA…



For $20, you can buy a home test kit for Nitrogen, Potassium and Phosphorous.  Wood ashes definitely help with the Potassium - add about 10 pounds/100 square feet/year.  Other organic fertilizers can help with nitrogen and phosphorous - these are better than synthetic since they break down and release nutrients more slowly.  You could also have a deficiency of trace elements - this is harder to test for.  Dolomitic Lime (also counteracts acid soils) has a lot of trace elements in it.  My soil is deficient in magnesium, so I add a little Epsom Salts (magnesium sulfate) to counteract that - a half gallon per 1/4 acre is about all you need of that.  

Since I did the soil test and learned that my soil was deficient in nearly everything, I added some NPK fertilizers and corrected for missing trace element.  I spread my wood ashes on my lawn and garden each year (these have a lot of trace elements also).  My lawn is looking 2 to 3 times as lush as before, and my garden produces like crazy.  It was well worth the cost of the kit.


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## kenny chaos (Oct 31, 2009)

Thanks for the condolences and I apologize for interrupting the thread.
I'm glad you carried on with it.
Great exchange of information!
My dad always said that a man isn't a man if he doesn't produce some of his own food.
I toast, to you men.
Kenny


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## timfromohio (Nov 1, 2009)

Kenny - don't apologize for interrupting the thread.  We all here talking about gardening or woodburning, etc. - things that few of us probably do for a living and just really enjoy investing time in - your sentiments re-affirm my own determination in these kinds of activities - the stuff that really brings joy and richness to our lives.

Gooserider - you could always make sure your onions from this year are dried out well, store them in mesh bags or something similar, and plant them again next year.  It sounds like you have the equivalent of onions sets - they would likely pick up growing where they left off.  

SolarandWood-I'll try planting less deeply next year.  It may also have been the source - I just picked up a couple of bags of sets at Lowes or HD.  The quality was probably not the best.  I've wanted to grow onion from seed, but in the gardening books I have that illustrate doing this, the onions are transplanted a couple of times and it looks like a lot of trouble, especially given the size of the onions.  I already transplant all of the tomatoes, peppers, and herbs we grow from seed once from small dixie-cup size pots to larger ones and just didn't want to mess around with the onions.


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## colsmith (Nov 2, 2009)

Onions from seed would work, but it takes a lot longer and more effort.  Since onion sets are so cheap, I would say just buy them.  Plants work well, too, but are a lot pricier than sets (the little onion bulbs, for those not in the know about how they are named). 

Gooserider, sounds like I guessed right, you are burying your onions and that makes the bulb not develop much.  You should just place the set into the ground enough that it doesn't fall over when you water it.  Even if you have a plant, just put the roots underground, not the bulb part.  The bulb should be almost completely above ground when it develops. 

I know more about gardening than burning wood, because I have been doing it much longer.


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