# NYS DEC Part 247 Regulations



## Awillard (May 29, 2010)

The NYSDEC is proposing regulations that will significantly hamper the use of outdoor wood boilers, which by the text of the regulations don't necessarily have to be outdoor, burn wood, or even have to be a boiler!  This is there second step in prohibiting the burning of wood in New York State.  The first was an ban on the open burning of garbage (a good thing) that even put into affect within the regulation how big a campfire could be (no more than 3')!  We have started an online petition for New York residents to show their frustration of the DEC at: http://www.petitiononline.com/deckerhe/petition.html 
Please take a moment to sign before wood burning is banned in New York!
Link to DEC Regs:  http://www.dec.ny.gov/regulations/64459.html


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## webbie (May 29, 2010)

Having just attended a biomass conference which was attended by many representing NY State agencies and orgs, I would find it very hard to believe that the above accusation about banning wood burning has even a grain of truth to it.

http://www.powernaturally.org/programs/BiomassResources/default.asp?i=2
http://www.newyorkbiomass.org/

More likely, it seems you are complaining about the desire of the public and legislators to burn wood in the most efficient manner possible and with the least pollution. That seems to be the target of the new regs...which I happen to agree with (just like you agree with the garbage ban...and I do too).

Why not just present your accurate case instead of trying to scare folks into thinking there is some kind of plot here? The facts seem to show that NY State as whole is extremely interested in increasing the energy they get from biomass, as opposed to doing away with it.

Make no mistake about it, Andrew - the entire concept of Outdoor Wood Boilers was created by the manufacturers specifically to drive their trucks (and bank accounts) through loopholes in the laws and code concerning everything from boiler safety and construction to EPA standards. Setting bad examples of inefficient wood burning seems like the REAL way to get wood burning banned.

Those of us in the industry see a future when millions more in the Northeast burn biomass - and this is a future that cannot exist with high pollution devices.


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## Awillard (May 29, 2010)

My complaints, as well as those from many others, come from the way the DEC is approaching the subject of outdoor wood boilers.  I have no problem; in fact encourage the development of ways to use biomass as an energy source, and in more efficient ways.  I have several issues with the proposed regulations.  One is stack height.  The DEC proposes chimneys be the grater of 18 feet or 2 feet above any structure within 150 feet.  For our home this would be a 36' chimney.  I realize that chimney height has resolved complaints in populated areas, but I live in a very rural area.  Our closest neighbor is ~750' away, and our second closest is ~2000' away.  There is no need for a higher chimney on our unit.  A neighboring far would be forced to 82' of chimney due to the location of his silo, considered a structure by the DEC.  The DEC is also proposing setbacks from property lines and neighboring residences that speak just like local zoning regulations.  Zoning and land use regulations should be left up to the local municipalities.  Next is the proposed phase out of existing units.  Their proposal is that once a unit hits 10 years from the date of manufacture, it mush be taken out of service and scrapped.  Why not let existing units run out their useful life.  If fact, the way the regulation is written, a EPA Phase II unit installed before April 14, 2011 could only be used for 10 years.  Lastly is the wide scope of the regulation but the total lack of addressing any indoor furnace.  If someone installs a non-outdoor boiler system in a garage or shed to keep bark, ashes, dust, etc. out of their home, it falls under the regulations.  The standing joke about the regulation is that it’s the outdoor wood boiler regulation for units that aren't necessary outdoor, don't necessarily burn wood (pellets, corn, coal, and other biomass are included), and don't even have to be a boiler.  I've spoken to one of the regional DEC Air Quality representatives regarding the new biomass boiler that was recently installed at a local school.  This boiler uses some of the newest gasification technology to burn biomass to heat the school.  According to the representative, the school will be able to run the boiler for at least next winter, but due to the 1000' setback from any school in the regulation, most likely the boiler will have to be shut down.  

Most people I've spoken with locally are just saying that the DEC can't do what they are proposing, but the DEC has shown in many past cases that they can and will.  To some degree, a lot of people need a rude wake up call!


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## webbie (May 30, 2010)

Ok, so you are proposing that we sign a petition put up by a guy who is a large Central Boiler dealer and put out a vast number of units? And you are telling us he (and/or you) have no axe to grind?

And you are starting that since many tens of millions of dollars were made and pollution was generated by intentionally skirting regulations....that is a reason why it should be allowed to go on much longer than what is deemed fair for the environment and the general population (tens of millions) of NY State?

Fine. I respect your opinion, but I hear different ones from my friends and cohorts in the biomass industry. They are unhappy about the bad PR and reputation given to biomass by those who skirt the intention of the regs which have been in place for 20+ years.....not withstanding the boiler construction regs which have been in existence for about 150+ years. 

It sounds like some parts of the regs need modified or changed, and hopefully that will happen.


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## Awillard (May 30, 2010)

Does it make sense to thow away a car that is only 3 years old simply because the the warranty on some cars only lasts 3 years.  Go ahead, I'd like to see someone scrap a 3 year old BMW or Jag just because it didn't have the latest and greatest emmisions.  Yes a local Cenral Boiler dealer set up the web based petition, but I know of several Garn and Ahona units that will have to shut down and scrapped due to these new regulations.  And yes I do own and operate a Central Boiler unit and burn only clean dry seasoned wood that i've cut myself.  Our boiler does not smoke out the neighborhood (or our yard) like others would presume it does.  As far as efficency, it love someone to prove to me that there would be a significant improvement if I switched to gasifier as I now only burn 12-14 face cord of wood (depending upon the winter) to heat our 30x40 two story home.  I believe we must devlop and use better technologies, and I welcome the transition to these technologies, but you cannot mandate the instant transition to these technologies the instant they are developed.  We've proven that solar power is much better environmentally than coal fired plants, but we havent shut down all the coal plants yet!


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## webbie (May 30, 2010)

Not an apt comparison to a BMW, my friend.

Remember, we are talking about units which were built specifically to skirt regulations. So this would be like you building a bunch of cars that did not meet emissions or safety standards, selling them and making millions, and then telling the authorities that you should be able to use them forever...

Again, you are welcome to your opinion, but I can't help but think you have more irons in this fire than just being a lone owner. Of course, I've been wrong before and I will be wrong again.

The transition to cleaner burning, BTW, started in the USA in about 1985 - that is 25 years ago. How long do you wish to take to have them implemented?


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## Awillard (May 30, 2010)

There has been great advances in cleaning up diesel engines and in safety features for agricultural tractors and construction equipment in the last 25 years also.  I don't know about your area, but there are plently of over 25 John Deere Tractors and even more pieces of CAT equipment of the same age operated on a regular basis in this neck of the woods.  And you are correct in saying I'm more than a lone owner - i've had to deal with the DEC and their envioromental regulations for my entire career as a civil and environmental engineer.  This just happens to be the proverbial straw.


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## leaddog (May 30, 2010)

I have to agree that OWB's can be a problem. That said I don't see where the GOV is really trying to fix it. Any time the GOV gets involved they tend to write up a bunch of reg's that favor some special interest group and make matters worse. You have to realise that the wood boiler group is a small group and there is no money there. The oil, propane, elect, industry don't WANT wood boilers period and that includes the heating and plumbing people. That is where the money is.
The bio-mass industry has done a terrible job in educating people about clean burning and even letting people know there is such a thing as gasification. You can rail all day on the OWB industry about making dirty burners BUT they did see a market and DID fill that market and DID reach people that need a cheaper way to heat their homes. If the Tarms, eko's, garn's, etc had reached out and let people know they were out there maybe there would have been alot less of the dirty ones burning. Here in Michigan hardly NO ONE has even heard about gasification. But at every fair, flee market, roadside, newspaper, local celebration, there is a OWB display and salesman showing people how great a OWB is. Two years ago here you couldn't FIND ANY dealer for ANY gasification boiler in the state. The ONLY info was on the net. The bio-mass industry needs to go to school at Central Boiler and learn how to market and stop railing on how dirty they are. If you let people know they have a better product they will buy and you won't have to have a bunch of self serving regs wrote up by a bunch of unknowing people that have no knowledge of what they are writing. There is more knowledge HERE than in the whole EPA and state gov agencies combined.
The other problem I see with the gov getting involved more is the industry people that really know bio-mass are overseas and they want NOTHING to do with all our stupid regulations. We can't get any of the GOOD boilers over here because our state and federal gov has passed stupid regs that vary from district to district and were put into place to protect special interests. LIKE asme, ul, home owners installing there own water heater, pex pipe. Yes even a few years ago the plumbing people got regs inplace where pvc, pex etc couldn't be used because anyone could install it and they didn't want that. Elect codes, building codes, plumbing codes, and yes even heating codes are really designed to protect special interests under the IDEA of protecting the people. Money talks and untill the bio-mass people get enough clout we will not progress here but they can start by educating the heating and cooling industry. I go to shows all the time and talk to heating contrators and most don't have a clue about gasification boilers. they haven't seen one, heard about them, and think they are just OWB's. That is a compleat failure on the part of the bio-mass industry. I think I've informed more people here in my small world than the industy in the state and I'm not the most informed person as all I've learned has been from this site. If I had not found this site I would have been back burning an OWB and would have sent my eko to china to be made into steel for a central boiler. So rail all you want about CB but they know how to market and maybe they might get smart and just buy up one of the overseas co. and they will take over the bio-mass industy.
leaddog
leaddog


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## leaddog (May 30, 2010)

Another example of zoning and gov regs being written is in the solar area. You can get vac. tube waterheaters from china for about the same price as an on demand gas or elect water heater. But because it has to be installed by a licened PRO and the make-up it will cost several Thousands. Now the GOV says they are promoting solar by giving rebates etc but all they are doing is keeping the price sky high so no one will put it in. There is no good reason that every house doesn't have solar DHW in MOST of the US except the Elect co., gas, propane, oil co's DON"T want that. Just think how much elect, gas, propane, oil would be saved if the GOV was serious. But think how much the coal, oil, elect, propane indusry would do to keep that from happening. Bio-mass and solar is not going to happen for a long time I'm afraid.
leaddog


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## Donl (May 30, 2010)

Very well said Leaddog!


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## Frozen Canuck (May 30, 2010)

Sadly have to agree with you leaddog.

I have over the years become more & more aware of the difficulty in getting our building codes changed for the good.

There are literally hundreds of examples in the building industry where changes that groups of pro's have pushed for, to improve how we build homes have been shelved, or outright rejected.

In almost every case it can be tracked back to an interested group (vinyl siding & asphalt shingle industry) are huge culprits when it comes to changes in the fire codes for example, as both of these products fuel & help spread fires from home to home esp. in dense housing which btw is the majority of homes.

The result is from the time I started in the trades, we have gone from losing 1-3 homes in a residential fire in the city to a point where we now can lose half a block or more if wheather is against you as well.

Can't see how this serves anyone other than the interest groups. Who btw paid in advance for this service in the form of political contibutions. There is the root of the problem. Change that first then we can start to change the rest.


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## EricV (May 31, 2010)

Andrew Willard said:
			
		

> There has been great advances in cleaning up diesel engines and in safety features for agricultural tractors and construction equipment in the last 25 years also.  I don't know about your area, but there are plently of over 25 John Deere Tractors and even more pieces of CAT equipment of the same age operated on a regular basis in this neck of the woods.  And you are correct in saying I'm more than a lone owner - i've had to deal with the DEC and their envioromental regulations for my entire career as a civil and environmental engineer.  This just happens to be the proverbial straw.



There's the rub.  This is a beef with DEC more than the OWB's alone.

Sounds like you have a history of environmental issues with DEC.

Stack height and set backs aside what gives you the right to pollute the air that me and my family breath with a device that was made to skirt every regulation out there?  You have no right to pollute the air in the manner your  OWB does.

Your petition is a joke, talking about rights.  We the people have a right to clean air just like everyone else.  One right you do have is to your opinion and I respect that right, but you have no right to delibritly pollute the air others breath


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## leaddog (May 31, 2010)

EricV said:
			
		

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The problem is not that every one shouldn't want clean burning it is that the gov is making regs that don't solve and help the problems. They are passing regs that will stop people from burning clean boilers and if they burn wood will put dirty furnaces inside their homes. Then more homes will burn down and trust me a burning home puts out more dirt than a OWB will in it's life time. 
There are boilers that burn clean but are being lumped in with all other boilers or the regs are being written for a few with special tests so only they will pass because of there design. None of the Europian boilers and the garn will pass and they burn cleaner. If the gov wants to promote clean burning they will help the bio-mass industry promote clean burning and people will buy a good product. Right now they are just trying to shut down wood burning.
Now as far as other people polluting the air: cars, trucks, trains, planes, elect plants, steel mills, factories, and one of the great polluters of all gas emiting from the rear end of every living thing is messing up the air I breath. Now we have moved most of the factories over to China, being forced into smaller cars, now that Sen. K has passed on we're going to put in a few wind mills to ruin all your east coast view, dumping a few gal of oil on the beaches, burning up the great wild west, we are going to solve the biggest source of pollution of all. Shut down those boilers and burn more high priced oil. Maybe if we save some of that beach sand you all will be happy. By burning it it will make heat and turn it into some pretty glass so we all can look thru rose collored glasses. I'm sorry but if they want to fix the problem then set down and look at the problem and come up with a solution that helps. First off they have to see if there is a real problem and then they have to understand what can work and learn about the technology that is out there. It's really nice and easy to say put up a stack 100ft high, but it's shown that that adds to the problem and causes more problems. Stupid people that won't learn will make even more stupid problems. Sorry I'm not politically correct but I'm getting very sick of how our gov is working. We have lots of problem and they are NOT FIXing anything, just making more problems.
leaddog


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## goosegunner (May 31, 2010)

EricV said:
			
		

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Maybe all the burners should be shut down and every one use solar only. That would eliminate even more pollution.

gg


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## webbie (May 31, 2010)

Well, you know it's funny - a car today puts out maybe 1/50th the pollution of a car from a car 40 years ago....some even less than that.
They are also many times safer in a crash. Yet many of the same folks are always complaining about all those government regs which caused that to happen. Tell you this much - I'd have at least one dead child if it was not for those government auto safety standards. Many of you probably would also...

Public health is a big issue. You cannot look at it in the typical "aw shucks" common sense fashion, because it covers tens of millions of people and involved science which you cannot see with your eyes (pollutants).

Someone above mentioned the poor job of selling the public on clean burning biomass. Well, I would say that the poor job is because of what a lot of the public and the officials see and hear - that is the smoky OWBs! They have held the headlines with hundreds of news stories - all negative - each year for the last number of years.

I can't state whether the OP burns his OWB clean - it is surely possible to burn one cleaner than another, although it is impossible to burn one (non-epa) at a decent total efficiency. 

In any case, it is high time in this country to finally stop doing things at very low efficiencies - we simply cannot afford to waste the resources nor produce the extra pollution. Unfortunately, people do not respond to "please" as a way to change behavior, so both government regulations and manufacturers cooperation and R&D are needed.

Those who want to continue living in the stone age will find a way to do so as long as possible......as mentioned above, the problem is the loophole that these makers drove a train though.......now it must be closed.


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## leaddog (May 31, 2010)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Well, you know it's funny - a car today puts out maybe 1/50th the pollution of a car from a car 40 years ago....some even less than that.
> They are also many times safer in a crash. Yet many of the same folks are always complaining about all those government regs which caused that to happen. Tell you this much - I'd have at least one dead child if it was not for those government auto safety standards. Many of you probably would also...
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> Public health is a big issue. You cannot look at it in the typical "aw shucks" common sense fashion, because it covers tens of millions of people and involved science which you cannot see with your eyes (pollutants).
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I don't disagree but what the regs are saying even the tarm won't pass. the garn won't and no other boiler that I know of that has really clean burning. So how can you be for what is happening. It's a big farce. The OWB people didn't just go out and make the market. the market was there for the taking. The OWB filled a need for a easy, low cost way for people to heat there homes and other buildings. Now make a boiler that does this that is clean and market it and people will buy it. It's easy to bash them so why not do what they did and beat them at the game. 
leaddog


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## jason elmer (May 31, 2010)

I think there are people out there who are very zealous and have a zero tolerance for any activity they do not like.  There are also people who hate the human species and consider us to be the equivalent of roaches and want to return the earth to a pre-civilization state.    

It is my estimation that the US has reached and passed the population carrying capacity for freedom.  Thats the big reason I wish we could reduce immigration legal and illegal.  Limits on what you can or cannot do are only going to increase as the population increases.  And it seems most of my fellow countrymen are only too happy to give up their freedoms for security whether it be food, healthcare, employment... you name it.  

Much is made about the increases in asthma.  This is puzzling because our air quality has improved markedly in the past 30 years.  Sometimes I wonder if we as a population are less healthy because advances in medicine has saved (prolonged) many young lives and these people grow up and tend to be more fragile ie. the runts that used to die now survive in a somewhat weakened state.  However I believe we should save lives as much as possible as it is the morally right thing to do.  

Back to smoke issues.  Our forefathers would be surprised to see us argue about these little amounts of smoke.  In my state at the time of settlement.  There was a continuous haze for years caused by slash fires, forest fires, brush clearing, field burning, and wood heat in homes (non gasification).  Our cities were choked with smoke from burning coal, the buildings were streaked with black soot.  Trees were hard to grow in cities and many died.  Botanists brought in tree of heaven from China because it could survive the pollution.  There was so much smoke that navigation on the Great Lakes was severely impacted regularly.  Many shipwrecks occurred due to poor visibility from smoke.  As recently as the 1950's acid fog was killing people in London.  We have come a long ways from those conditions.      

Nature has always produced a lot of smoke.  Wildfires were once common across vast areas prior to settlement in North America.  Large areas that could support forest were actually savanna and prairie.  These were maintained by frequent fires both natural and set by natives.  

Recently a forest fire broke out in northern Michigan consuming about 4500 acres of forest mostly jack pine.  How much smoke did that create?  I'm not sure but I was about fifty miles away from it and it looked like a thunderhead.  Jack pine is a fire prone species.  It is designed to burn frequently.  That's how it regenerates.  In fact our very own government burns thousands of acres of the stuff all the time to create and maintain habitat for the endangered Kirtland's warbler.  The Kirtland's warbler requires young jack pine to nest and needs at least 80 acres for each pair.  For a bird to need these uncommon conditions in present day Michigan means that the forest burned a lot more before we got here.  

That being said I believe we should be good stewards of the land, water, and air, and burn wood as responsibly as possible.  But be realistic we will never totally eliminate all smoke nor should we try.  It is natural!  Four hundred million people living in the United States is not!


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## shagy (Jun 2, 2010)

I sure can not believe the pettiness of some. Who cares who put out this petition. That person at least has not buried his or her head in the sand.This resolution states all wood burning devices not in a building inhabited by humans is considered a outside boiler. Thus unless it passes Phase 2 testing it falls into the 10 yr throw away clause.Being naive and believing the DEC will just over look your favorite furnace will get ya no where.We all can argue the indoor outdoor crap another time. If you live in NY sign it. Everyone will benefit


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## webbie (Jun 2, 2010)

white pine said:
			
		

> I think there are people out there who are very zealous and have a zero tolerance for any activity they do not like.  There are also people who hate the human species and consider us to be the equivalent of roaches and want to return the earth to a pre-civilization state. !



Are you talking about Catholics, Muslims or folks who don't like to smell acrid smoke hanging over their valley?


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## Awillard (Jun 2, 2010)

shagy said:
			
		

> I sure can not believe the pettiness of some. Who cares who put out this petition. That person at least has not buried his or her head in the sand.This resolution states all wood burning devices not in a building inhabited by humans is considered a outside boiler. Thus unless it passes Phase 2 testing it falls into the 10 yr throw away clause.Being naive and believing the DEC will just over look your favorite furnace will get ya no where.We all can argue the indoor outdoor crap another time. If you live in NY sign it. Everyone will benefit



Shaggy - you hit it right on the head with"This resolution states all wood burning devices not in a building inhabited by humans is considered a outside boiler"  Even if the boiler passes Phase II, if it is installed by April 14, 2011, the boiler falls under the 10 year rule.  B the way, just what would happen to the EKO, Tarn, Garn, or any other gasifier with a 40' stack anyway.  This is what Garn said about the matter:  http://garn.com/content/stacks.aspx

By the way - our next boiler will be a gasifier and it will not be in our house!


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## shagy (Jun 2, 2010)

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 Cute dog! stupid quote... you do not get it. These people care if it comes from your garn campfire or your fireplace


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## EricV (Jun 3, 2010)

I talked to one of the Citizen Participation Specialists at DEC about this.  He said the best way to get this adjusted, and I don't disagree there is room for improvement, is to right up our concerns in a non emotional clearly written statement.  He said the proper people will look at them and consider the data we input.  I think he's right, educations seems to be a common thread here.  We have all learned a great deal about our own systems from our own experiences and from the experiences and expertise of others here.  If we share this information in a non emotional, non combative, informational manor we may get some of our education to work for us.

Just my 2 cents.


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## jason elmer (Jun 3, 2010)

Actually I was referring to the fringe environmentalist movement.  But I do agree there are zealots of all races, religions, creeds, and political persuasions.  

The key point is that most legislation is poorly written by our political class which in my opinion seldom even grasp what it is they are drafting.  Politicians of both parties tend to be lazy, self serving, incompetent, or worse corrupt.  The outdoor boiler issue is one that can, should, and has been addressed at the local level of government.  Some areas that have issues with smoke accumulation such a valleys and low pockets can and should draft tighter regulations as should areas with higher housing density.  Making them illegal in very rural areas is not a pressing issue.  What they are doing is casting a wide net at the state level that snares much cleaner gasification units and this is not the answer.  Getting the New York state budget under control should be priority one for Albany,  outlawing wood boilers is inconsequential in comparison.  

Does anyone have any data on the number of outdoor boilers in New York state?  My guess is there are thousands but in the grand scheme of things most are probably located in rural areas where timber is abundant and homes are scarce.  Quite simply the number of people heating with wood just isn't that large.  As a percentage of total air pollution emitted statewide I would guess they comprise less than 1% of statewide emissions.  Once again a local issue not a statewide problem. 

Now would I own a smoke dragon?  No way!  But this is America folks and unless the pollution from these units can be scientifically proven to cause SIGNIFICANT PUBLIC HEALTH ISSUES they should be legal.  And as I mentioned above regulations should be crafted at the local level.  Better to use a scalpel than a meat cleaver.  

In the long run the market place will determine the winning design and I believe the modern wood gasification boiler will win.  If gassers get lumped in with the smoke dragons in the proposed legislation they will disappear from the marketplace as well.  Classic unintended consequences of well intentioned legislation, happens all the time.


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## lawandorder (Jun 3, 2010)

shagy said:
			
		

> I sure can not believe the pettiness of some. Who cares who put out this petition. That person at least has not buried his or her head in the sand.This resolution states all wood burning devices not in a building inhabited by humans is considered a outside boiler. Thus unless it passes Phase 2 testing it falls into the 10 yr throw away clause.Being naive and believing the DEC will just over look your favorite furnace will get ya no where.We all can argue the indoor outdoor crap another time. If you live in NY sign it. Everyone will benefit



The part about not inhabited by humans etc.... deals with non indoor rated units. I believe the language is designed to prevent outdoor boilers from being installed into an out building or garage in an attempt to bypass the regulations that they intend on passing. If you have an indoor unit that is installed indoors is still an indoor unit, and an outdoor unit installed indoors is still an outdoor unit...


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## Donl (Jun 3, 2010)

lawandorder said:
			
		

> The part about not inhabited by humans etc.... deals with non indoor rated units. I believe the language is designed to prevent outdoor boilers from being installed into an out building or garage in an attempt to bypass the regulations that they intend on passing. If you have an indoor unit that is installed indoors is still an indoor unit, and an outdoor unit installed indoors is still an outdoor unit...




I hear what you, and it makes sense in what you are saying.  However, in reality they do in fact treat indoor and outdoor boilers the same when they are installed in an outbuilding. 

In the jurisdiction I live in the definition they use clearly defines an indoor boiler located in an uninhabited outbuilding as being an Outdoor Boiler.  It does not make any sense to me and when I have talked to the powers to be, they could care less.

Government can be a big mean uncaring machine. Most people are to apathetic to demand respect from their Governments!


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## shagy (Jun 4, 2010)

lawandorder said:
			
		

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 WRONG... DEC states this is the way I expressed before. You see you only believe otherwise ,your guessing . Not a good thing . Just sit back and wait to see whos correct. Dont whine if your wrong. But better yet start screaming and sign petitions.


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## Awillard (Jun 4, 2010)

Don L said:
			
		

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Confirmed last evening at the DEC Public Hearing in Watertown: "indoor" units installed in a building away from the primary structure that is being heated will be considered an outdoor wood boiler and will be regulated.  If installed before April 15th, 2011, these units will have to be replaced within 10 years from the date they were put into operation.


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## horrocksd (Jun 4, 2010)

Reading over the proposed regs in 6 NYCRR, part 247, the following provision cause me some concern:

- Page 4, Sec 247.3, b "prohibited fuels", 11 "coal"

- Page 6, section 247.6: Emission limits (It appears my brand-new Econoburn 150 will not pass these regs, even though it's one of the most efficient and clean burnig boilers on the market). Yes, I'm a bit concerned.

- Page 7, Stack height: "A residential size new outdoor wood boiler shall be equipped with a permanent stack extending a minimum of 2 feet above the peak of any roof structure located within 150 feet of the out door wood boiler and no less than 18 feet above ground level."

-Page 12, Requirements for existing OWBs: "An existing OWB that commenced operation between Spetember 1, 2005 and April 14, 2011 must be replaced with a new outdoor wood boiler meeting the requirements of this Part or must be permanently removed from service within ten years of the commence operation date, but no later than August 2020."

-Page 13: "No person shall operate an existing outdoor boiler in the northern heating zone between May 15 and August 31 or each year, or between April 15 and September 30 of each year elsewhere in the state."


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## shagy (Jun 5, 2010)

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I know of Mr Willard... He had to jump through hoops to put up a personal wind turbine on his property that happens to be in a VERY rural area. He is a very intelligent person. Your statement of burning a device that was made to skirt every regulation out there is false. The EPA had no regulations on these. EricV can you tell us all why a person in the village of Adams NY or others have burnt their OWB and the village and didnt know they were there? How does that happen? When the village of Adams wrote the regulations for boilers this man stood up and admitted he had a boiler. He has a CL40 CB unit with the top of his chimney 14' from the ground. All homes in that area are old Victorian homes. On the other hand you can see a plume out of others. Is it the machine or the operator? 
DEC admitted they are not receiving 50 complaints on wood furnaces a week as the Governor's office stated. The DEC pointed out that they only had 70 or so furnaces that had complaints filed on in NY. 
The petition is about wood burning.So the joke is on you. This petition is about all the people that have bought a furnace and are told they will have to throw it away in 10 yrs. That includes all furnaces in a out buildings and outdoor boilers. Is that fair? We will see how brave you are at the hearing in Saranac Lake. Hope to hear you or anyone else to tell all the people that have these to just throw these away. Could make things a little more lively. In today's world though the rights of one far surpasses the rights of the majority
Wait till the DEc and APA tell us we cant have 2 stroke motors in the park...only 4 stroke or paddles only


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## shagy (Jun 5, 2010)

white pine said:
			
		

> I think there are people out there who are very zealous and have a zero tolerance for any activity they do not like. There are also people who hate the human species and consider us to be the equivalent of roaches and want to return the earth to a pre-civilization state.
> 
> It is my estimation that the US has reached and passed the population carrying capacity for freedom. Thats the big reason I wish we could reduce immigration legal and illegal. Limits on what you can or cannot do are only going to increase as the population increases. And it seems most of my fellow countrymen are only too happy to give up their freedoms for security whether it be food, healthcare, employment... you name it.
> 
> ...



Just returned from Alabama. They burn Thousands of acres every year of woodland. The EPA says that the average acre will emit about 156 "POUNDS" of particulate. Seeing that citys such as Atlanta , Columbus , Macon Ga ,Dothan , Montgomery Al are to the east of these and the west wind blows to the east. How on earth do they survive? 
 VERY GOOD post white pine


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## EricV (Jun 5, 2010)

"EricV can you tell us all why a person in the village of Adams NY or others have burnt their OWB and the village and didnt know they were there? How does that happen?"

Quite simple.  There are responsible users of OWB's that try not to bother their neighbors.  They use better fuel, drier wood, etc.  Not green wood that was a standing tree the day before.  Those folks have no concern for anyone but themselves.  

The problem is the ones that don't.

In either case there are none of the non gasification boilers that burn without vast amounts of pollution, they are just not built in a fashion that allows hot enough combustion.

And I have already talked to DEC on several occasions on this topic.  I don't need to be brave to talk to DEC.  

By they way, DEC has absolutely nothing to do with wind turbines so I'm not sure where you are going with that.

And what does rights have to do with anything?  No one has the right to foul another person's living space.  It's that simple.


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## Awillard (Jun 5, 2010)

EricV said:
			
		

> "EricV can you tell us all why a person in the village of Adams NY or others have burnt their OWB and the village and didnt know they were there? How does that happen?"
> 
> Quite simple.  There are responsible users of OWB's that try not to bother their neighbors.  They use better fuel, drier wood, etc.  Not green wood that was a standing tree the day before.  Those folks have no concern for anyone but themselves.
> 
> ...





Eric V - DEC has a lot to do with Wind Turbines when someone has to follow thier SEQR Process, Something the DEC did extremly poorly on the Part 247 Regulations.


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## shagy (Jun 5, 2010)

So its the operator's not the stoves


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## DaveBP (Jun 5, 2010)

I can't imagine that the dreaded OWB is any worse offender than many old time wood stove setups that have been running for years, WHEN loaded appropriately with dry wood matched to the current load. A Eurogasser is going to stink up the neighborhood if loaded with wet wood and run on low speed, too.

Comparing standard OWBs  to late model BMWs or Jags as someone did earlier in this thread is a bit of a stretch, though. An Edsel, maybe.


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## heaterman (Jun 6, 2010)

lawandorder said:
			
		

> shagy said:
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> 
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That is correct. It's the rating of the unit that makes or breaks the deal from what our EPA air quality people say here in Michigan.


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## Awillard (Jun 6, 2010)

heaterman said:
			
		

> lawandorder said:
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But this is the NYS DEC that we are dealing with - Take an indoor unit and put it in a shed or your garage and in the DEC's eyes it becomes and outdoor wood boiler!  So - if you take your EKO (current ad on this page) and install it inside your house - no regulation.  But if you install it in a wood shed 50' from the house to keep wood bark, ashes, etc. outside (and keep your insurance rate down) - poof -it's an outdoor wood boiler and regulated!  If it is installed before April 15, 2011, it does not even matter if it is EPA Phase II certified, you can only use it for ten year from the "commence operation date".


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## shagy (Jun 6, 2010)

[quote author="DaveBP" date="1275790342"]I can't imagine that the dreaded OWB is any worse offender than many old time wood stove setups that have been running for years, WHEN loaded appropriately with dry wood matched to the current load. A Eurogasser is going to stink up the neighborhood if loaded with wet wood and run on low speed, too.

Comparing standard OWBs  to late model BMWs or Jags as someone did earlier in this thread is a bit of a stretch, though. An Edsel, maybe.[/quote

 Maybe compared to a VW bug. Very correct post


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## webbie (Jun 7, 2010)

DaveBP said:
			
		

> I can't imagine that the dreaded OWB is any worse offender than many old time wood stove setups that have been running for years,  An Edsel, maybe.



If those woodstoves have short chimneys, are surrounded by cold interior firebox walls and have a firebox big enough for you to fit into, you would be correct. But they don't.


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## DaveBP (Jun 7, 2010)

> Webmaster
> 
> DaveBP - 05 June 2010 05:12 PM
> 
> ...



Actually, the mental image I had was of the venerable 55gal. drum with the stove pipe elbow out the sheet-metal covered window and maybe just above the roof drip edge. Terribly inefficient and I'm sure a combustion gas analyzer would gag, but when run with reasonably dry wood they didn't seem to bring the sky down on the public awareness like the OWBs are. Maybe I just never lived next to one of those.

I think of it primarily as an assault on public courtesy. If someone is blasting Beethoven at 3 AM and keeping the neighborhood awake it is not time to outlaw high volume stereo systems. Fine the jerk for being a public nuisance. (Some would include public health in the case of some types of music). 

The dinosaurs went extinct without the world coming to an end. Maybe we'll be as lucky this time.


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## webbie (Jun 7, 2010)

There are noise laws which measure the decibel level. 
If I lived next to a dirty one I would be pissed off beyond belief. I know this because just the one stove that a guy about 1000 feet away burns improperly stinks up our entire block and more.

If folks had to use dry seasoned split wood for OWB...well, a lot would not use 'em! That's a heck of a lot of work to get 30% or less efficiency out of. 

I know...we all long for those horse and carriage days, but since we now share the planet with 6 billions others, accommodations will have to be made. This is not big government intentionally picking on the little guy. Virtually every source of pollutants is regulated. As another example, the government is soon going to outlaw inefficient natural gas appliances....gas logs and low efficiency fireplaces, etc.

From a big picture perspective, this is a good thing. One only need look at the oil lapping the shores of the Gulf to understand there are costs involved in wasting energy. As a society we have a choice. We can continue to allow for that "freedom" of inefficient burns and excess pollution, at the risk of public health, resource use and outright banning of ALL biomass appliances. Or, we can work together with regulators, the public and manufacturers to establish the best possible technologies. I choose the later.


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## goosegunner (Jun 7, 2010)

It is interesting how people in general draw the line in the sand just before themselves.

What if we draw the line at Solar heat only no burning?

What if we draw the line for driving vehicles a limited number of miles a year?

Why do you need a snowmobile,atv, or tractor? most people in the cities don't use resources on such wasteful things.

How about chainsaws, can't you get by with cross cut saws? My grandfather did for many years and they pollute much less than chainsaws.

Do the wealthy really have the right to pollute the earth with there own private jets?

Might as well limit your living space, because why should I heat a 2500 sq ft house when we could set the cap at 1000 sq ft.

No heating of accessory buildings that aren't inhabited. Who really needs a heated garage anyway?

The list could go on and on. It is just something to think about. I am sure that we all could come up with something in our life that could be on the wrong side of someone's line. So maybe we should reflect and climb down from all the tall horses and just think.

gg


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## webbie (Jun 7, 2010)

Thats the neat thing about being human. You can make those decisions about where the line is, then you can modify the decisions as circumstances change.

There is a difference between being on the wrong side of that line, and being REALLY FAR on the wrong side. As I write this, my peace and quiet are being disturbed by lawnmowers, kids, a tractor somewhere and motor vehicles. On one hand I think we have swung too far that way - too much noise, too much light, too many roads, too many cars.......

On the other hand, you cannot fix it by laws or regulations alone - that takes policy and planning for the long term. Again, we have to go back to the start of this particular problem. Laws were made about air pollution from wood burning. A bunch of manufacturers and retailers made tens of millions of dollars from finding a loophole - then fought to keep that loophole. 

Snowmobiles, ATVs and all that other stuff are very highly regulated and if folks were running one around their 2 acre property borders 24 hours a day (similar to a OWB) and they had no pollution or noise standards, I suppose we would hear something from the general public.


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## goosegunner (Jun 8, 2010)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Snowmobiles, ATVs and all that other stuff are very highly regulated and if folks were running one around their 2 acre property borders 24 hours a day (similar to a OWB) and they had no pollution or noise standards, I suppose we would hear something from the general public.




Many would argue about the regulation being strict(Yellowstone Park complaints)  If you can't see them or hear them do they not emit unnecessary pollution?

I wonder what pollutes more. The guy in northern Wisconsin heating a 1000 sq ft house with his OWB burning dry wood or John Travolta flying his personal Jumbo jet around like a commuter plane. While living in Mansions requiring large amounts of energy to heat and cool.



gg


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## goosegunner (Jun 8, 2010)

By the way I do enjoy your conversation and appreciate your point of view. I believe I have taken the thread off track so enough said by me.

gg


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## d-bone20917 (Jun 8, 2010)

Andrew Willard said:
			
		

> heaterman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As lawandorder says, the way the the proposed regulation is written it applies to boilers not designed to be installed in a location inhabited by humans.  An indoor boiler is designed to be installed in a building inhabited by humans, so even if you put it in an outbuilding it is not subject to this regulation.  They will need to change the way the proposed regulation is written if they want to consider indoor boilers in an outbuilding an OWB.  I have been following this because I have an indoor wood boiler in an outbuilding.  Below is the definition of an OWB from the proposed regulation.

(12) 'Outdoor wood boiler'. A fuel burning device that (a) is designed to burn wood or other fuels; (b) is specified by the manufacturer for outdoor installation or installation in structures not normally occupied by humans; and (c) is used to heat building space and/or water via the distribution, typically through pipes, of a gas or liquid (e.g., water or water/antifreeze mixture) heated in the device.


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## ken999 (Jun 8, 2010)

Re-read through this thread. It WAS CONFIRMED at the Watertown meeting that ANY boiler in an outbuilding will be subject.


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## DBoon (Jun 9, 2010)

> I wonder what pollutes more. The guy in northern Wisconsin heating a 1000 sq ft house with his OWB burning dry wood or John Travolta flying his personal Jumbo jet around like a commuter plane. While living in Mansions requiring large amounts of energy to heat and cool.



Well, the guy in Northern Wisconsin is really far away from where I live, and perhaps he is far away from all his immediate neighbors as well.  And if he is burning dry wood, then maybe nobody would notice anyway.  Good for him for burning correctly and being considerate.   I can't smell his wood smoke at all, and it doesn't drift into my house, so no big deal.  

As for John Travolta, well, I have to say that I have never smelled the exhaust of his jumbo jet while enjoying a nice spring or fall day outside, or had my wife awakened in the middle of the night by the exhaust from his jet seeping into my house.  

It's the people within a half a mile of me in a small valley village that I care about more.  And often, they are not burning dry wood, burning correctly, or being considerate.


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## 4acrefarm (Jun 9, 2010)

The problem we have dealing with this issue is the same as health care, tax policy, energy, and so on. It's complicated. We have extremist on both sides of every issues screaming that the sky is falling, trying to cause a panic. After hearing about the government death squads that are going to decide whether our perents get to live or die I'm a little hesitent to beleve some of what I hear. ( by the way my 83 year old father has not been put to sleep yet) What I think we need is resonable inteligent and informed people willing to lsten to oposing points of veiw, argue their point and re wiliing to change their opinion if the facts warent it, without getting angry. 

Don't we all want to be left alone and be allowed to to as we want on our own property. Their is not one of us that wants our neighbor to infringe on our space. Smoke pouring into your house from your neighbors fire is no different than loud parties or having them drive their trucks though your garden. I think we must balance goernment intrusen and neighbor intusen and come to some kind of agreement. The politicians would not be spending any time on this if some of us did not intrude on our neighbors right to clean air.

I have been gulty of this myself, I have a homebuilt boiler that smokes. I have been working diligently to improve the situation. My neighbors have been great I have had no complaints even though they probably should have. If I do get any complants I will do whatever I need to do to adress them, even if it means to stop burning untill I can afford a gasser.  It helps that I do most of my burning in the evening when everone  is inside with windows shut. I will not burn in the summer to save $50 dollars per month in hot water.

I would compare the owb industry to the American auto industry in the 1970s. They are crusing along thinking they do not need to change while the world passes them in every way. Not BMW think 73caddy ineficient  and overpriced. If they would all evolve We could all have gasses made in USA for reasonable prices burning less wood and poluting less.

These are just my opinions ,not trying to force them on anybody but in the words of Rodney King "Can't we all just get along" lol.


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## Frozen Canuck (Jun 9, 2010)

Well here we all are again only a few months after plenty of discussion in other related threads on this topic. Some of us singing the same song about "freedom" to do as we please, where we please & when we please & to heck with everyone else. That's the "American" way, some of us say.

Well turns out that not everyone agrees, esp. those who have to breathe the air fouled by dirty wood burners (that would include me as I own an OWB) & yes I am concious of my neighbors right to clean air. Sad fact is though that I cannot control the wind & everytime the wind shifts & they are downwind of my OWB I am fouling their air & they have a valid concern in my opinion. 

My nearest neighbor is 2-3 miles away, so it is far less of a concern than most units being discussed here but is still a problem. That is what brought me to this sight, I need a solution to this problem & I dont feel another OWB is the solution.

Seems some or most in NY state feel the same as it appears that they are ready to cast a very wide net. 

I feel that most of us are misunderstanding the intent of this net. The net is intended not to eliminate all wood burners, just the dirty ones, esp. all of the OWB's as this is where the majority of complaints are aimed & that is what they are sick & tired of (the complaints).

So they have designed a net that will catch all OWB's & yes it will get other units too, but from their viewpoint it is far more important to get all the OWB's. You see that is the target, the OWB's. After all these years of complaints & all the videos on the www. showing one of these OWB's smoking away they just want to be done with them, all of them not some or even most.

That is why the net is built in the manner proposed, to catch all OWB's, not some or even most but all, 100%. They intend to deal with the majority of the complaints they receive in a total, complete & final way.

As they proceed with elimination of 100% of the OWB's they will, as I have said catch other units in their net. These units if they are gasifiers & are operated with storage allowing for a complete burn everytime will be of little concern to them as they have much bigger fish to catch, why waste your time with small fish when there are so many large ones to catch? 

Think of it as a catch & release program (just like fishing you cant keep the small ones) as a properly operated gasifier will be far too low on the pollution scale to be bothered with in comparison to the OWB's & the owner of a properly operated gasifier will be able to back up their claim of burning cleaner with a simple flue gas test when needed.

So at the end of it all I guess all of the OWB owners (me included) will have to step up to the plate & invest in cleaner burning units, some of us sooner than we had thought or planned, that is fair as we are the ones who bought & operated dirty units & caused this problem in the first place, so we should be prepared to take it on the chin when everyone else says enough is enough.


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## leaddog (Jun 9, 2010)

Frozen Canuck said:
			
		

> I feel that most of us are misunderstanding the intent of this net. The net is intended not to eliminate all wood burners, just the dirty ones, esp. all of the OWB's as this is where the majority of complaints are aimed & that is what they are sick & tired of (the complaints).
> 
> So they have designed a net that will catch all OWB's & yes it will get other units too, but from their viewpoint it is far more important to get all the OWB's. You see that is the target, the OWB's. After all these years of complaints & all the videos on the www. showing one of these OWB's smoking away they just want to be done with them, all of them not some or even most.
> 
> ...


I don't know how it is in Canada but I have been involved with gov here for many years and if you put a reg in place you HAVE to treat everyone equal. So if you make someone with a  OWB stop you MUST make any and all others stop that come under the same diffition or else you are discrimating and the Reg will get thrown out in court. They can't make ANY exception for a Garn or Tarm if they come under the OWB clause. So they MUST make the deffinition at the time of drafting the reg. 
That's why it is so important that the people that are drafting this reg understand OWB, gasification, stack height, setback, downdraft, actual amount of polutants and the actual damage or non damage. I'm tell you all. This isn't about the few complaints they get. They get LOTS more complaint about other things that they aren't interested in solving. THERE IS NO MONEY IN WOOD BURNING AND NO TAX MONEY PERIOD....... This is a easy way to look like they are doing something and all us little people can do little to stop it.
I went to a zoning meeting a couple years ago about just this type of reg.s at the local level. The zoning board had attended some meetings put on by the state and most of the info had come from NY telling how BAD ALL and I repeat ALL wood smoke was and how little NG, propane,fuel oil , and elect poluted. NY is leading the field on this and if the bio-fuel industry doesn't start to counter this it will be another generation when fosil fuel becomes VERY expensive before we start to catch up . Do I think that OWB are a small problem, YES, but when people learn there is a better way that doesn't cost more and is cheaper in the long run they will go away. If tarm would have come out with a boiler that would have addressed and given the people what they were looking for and had been promoted there wouldn't have been all those OWB smoking. Give CB credit. they knew how to promote and still do so quit crying and start educating, promoting, and if there is a better product let people know. I have NEVER seen or heard anything about gasification boilers accept on the net or at a couple show here in Michigan. Sorry I take that back, CB has advertized theirs in the local dealers adv.
Most people around here that have heard about gasification have heard it from this very small fish.
leaddog


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## webbie (Jun 9, 2010)

Frozen Canuck said:
			
		

> So at the end of it all I guess all of the OWB owners (me included) will have to step up to the plate & invest in cleaner burning units, some of us sooner than we had thought or planned, that is fair as we are the ones who bought & operated dirty units & caused this problem in the first place, so we should be prepared to take it on the chin when everyone else says enough is enough.



In the best of all possible worlds (which does not exist), those manufacturers who sold tens of millions of dollars worth of the things would have to chip in and allow you to upgrade cheap....share the pain a bit.

On the other hand, a very efficient unit in the USA might get the 30% federal tax credit and do even better when and if the new Home Star Energy thingy passes.

Please take my insider word in this - the OWB loophole was VERY intentionally taken advantage of by the makers.......this is not an issue that was win-win-win, but more of an issue of "I see an opening to make money by skirting the spirit of safety and air pollution regulations". 

Another interesting FYI. In the earlier time of OWB, you would be very luck to get more than 7 years out of a unit without a lot of leaking and in many cases replacement. I'm sure units have improved and people got smarter about water treatments, etc. - but still 10 years is a valid lifespan considering the history.


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## Frozen Canuck (Jun 9, 2010)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Frozen Canuck said:
> 
> 
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I agree that it was an act with intent. However I & many others did not do the research necessary to find a better way, so soon it will be time to face the music, I dont have a problem with that, as I being one that has caused the problem should face the consequences of that action. Pretty straight forward cause & effect in my book.



Leaddog: Govt is the same here, rarely rational. React far more than act. Usually in an over the top manner. However if I & others were not burning dirty then they would be happy to sit on the sidelines. You see I & others have given them something to react to & we should all know that it usually ends badly for us in that situation.


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## USA-1 (Jun 9, 2010)

Frozen Canuck said:
			
		

> Well here we all are again only a few months after plenty of discussion in other related threads on this topic. Some of us singing the same song about "freedom" to do as we please, where we please & when we please & to heck with everyone else. That's the "American" way, some of us say.
> 
> Well turns out that not everyone agrees, esp. those who have to breathe the air fouled by dirty wood burners (that would include me as I own an OWB) & yes I am concious of my neighbors right to clean air. Sad fact is though that I cannot control the wind & everytime the wind shifts & they are downwind of my OWB I am fouling their air & they have a valid concern in my opinion.
> 
> ...




You don't even know if your nearest neighbor is 2 miles away or 3 miles away? Yet, you say your boiler is fouling their air?!! And it's your fault?
Your stories reek of BS. I don't know for real how many other screen names you type your anti- US boiler 'stories' for, but this frozen canuck 'character'
is less believable than Shrek. 
C'mon, you guys are going to have to do better than this one.


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## webbie (Jun 9, 2010)

USA-1 said:
			
		

> Your stories reek of BS. I don't know for real how many other screen names you type your anti- US boiler 'stories' for, but this frozen canuck 'character'
> is less believable than Shrek.
> C'mon, you guys are going to have to do better than this one.



Strike two, USA..........third is the charm.

Sorry to say, but you are the troll - probably financially involved. If you had just a bit of smarts, you could have looked back through the last year of Canucks posts and seen where he is from and what he has....no BS.

Strike two - my delete button finger is itching, itching, itching...

BTW, why is someone from NH so worried about NYS regs?


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## Frozen Canuck (Jun 10, 2010)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> USA-1 said:
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> 
> 
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Why not just let him go at it the way he has been? 

100 responsible gaser owner/operators could not convince people to move away from OWB's as fast as he can with the way he chooses to behave, gives everyone an inside look at the OWB industry (as that is what he represents) he also gives everyone a good idea of how much they should believe when near an OWB salesperson. IMHO. Good eye opener for anyone considering an OWB. He alone is reason enough to turn & run the other way, preferably to a reputable gaser dealer/salesperson.......but away from the OWB for sure.


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## Mauler (Jun 10, 2010)

hey guys, newbie here

I've looked but I can't find what units DO meet the new NY regs. Any help?


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