# Stabil My not be the Answer



## wkpoor (Apr 1, 2012)

Director gave me a Husky wacker and a Sears blower this past weekend to work on. Classic after winter storage and won't run. Said he put stabil in the tanks and run them both a while to pull fuel into carbs. Both had fuel lines rotted off and the blower (only one fixed thus far had fish eggs in the carb. Also fuel smelled and looks like old rank fuel and supposedly was fresh last fall. I told him better to dump tanks and run dry. IMO either get some pure gas or drain it. Not really sure if Stabil is the storage answer.


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## BrianK (Apr 1, 2012)

A number of small engine shops around here recommend buying gas at the local airport, as it contains no ethanol.


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## MasterMech (Apr 1, 2012)

He could have had an older Stabil formula.  They re-formulated within the last 2 years to deal with the ethanol in fuel.  Before the re-formulation, adding Stabil to your fuel was like adding salt to boil water faster.  It don't work worth a chit.  No problems that I've heard about with the new formula. Marine or new ethanol compatible formula is clearly labeled.

I still reccomend Star-Tron or AMSOIL Quick-Shot.


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## MasterMech (Apr 2, 2012)

BrianK said:


> A number of small engine shops around here recommend buying gas at the local airport, as it contains no ethanol.


 
Not every airport is willing to sell AvGas since it is leaded (If it's 100LL you're buying) and they can't guarantee you're not pouring it in your car.  (Despite being 100 Low-Lead it actually contains more TEL [lead] than auto fuel did in the 60's)  It's illegal to run in any over-the-highway motor vehicle.  While I believe it's still legal to run in small engines and it shouldn't cause catastrophic damage, (The lead deposits aren't necessary tho.) I don't think it's a great idea since most of these engines exhaust within close proximity to the user.  Love the smell of 2-stroke in the morning? (I do!)  Keep in mind that running AvGas will put lead vapor in that aroma. 

Beware some newer power equipment may have a catalytic muffler installed and 100LL AvGas will plug that up in short order.  Same goes for ANYTHING using O2 sensors as the lead deposits will kill them too.


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## JoeyD (Apr 2, 2012)

I was doing some searching on Google yesterday because of a problem I am having with my Stihl hedge trimmer and found this stuff:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001VMNHX8/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER


Does anyone have any experience with this stuff?


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## wkpoor (Apr 2, 2012)

> While I believe it's still legal to run in small engines and it shouldn't cause catastrophic damage


Been using it a long time myself with no ill affects to anything I use it in. Looks like you pretty much said it right about 100LL. Good stuff just not easy to get. I hear some home stores are selling mower gas that probably is ethanol free.


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## firefighterjake (Apr 2, 2012)

MasterMech said:


> He could have had an older Stabil formula. They re-formulated within the last 2 years to deal with the ethanol in fuel. Before the re-formulation, adding Stabil to your fuel was like adding salt to boil water faster. It don't work worth a chit. No problems that I've heard about with the new formula. Marine or new ethanol compatible formula is clearly labeled.
> 
> I still reccomend Star-Tron or AMSOIL Quick-Shot.


 
I pretty much have been using Star Tron since the switch over to ethanol here in Maine . . . no issues so far.

Like MM what I saw on line was to stick with the Marine Stabil if you go that route.


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## firefighterjake (Apr 2, 2012)

MasterMech said:


> Not every airport is willing to sell AvGas since it is leaded (If it's 100LL you're buying) and they can't guarantee you're not pouring it in your car. (Despite being 100 Low-Lead it actually contains more TEL [lead] than auto fuel did in the 60's) It's illegal to run in any over-the-highway motor vehicle. While I believe it's still legal to run in small engines and it shouldn't cause catastrophic damage, (The lead deposits aren't necessary tho.) I don't think it's a great idea since most of these engines exhaust within close proximity to the user. Love the smell of 2-stroke in the morning? (I do!) Keep in mind that running AvGas will put lead vapor in that aroma.
> 
> Beware some newer power equipment may have a catalytic muffler installed and 100LL AvGas will plug that up in short order. Same goes for ANYTHING using O2 sensors as the lead deposits will kill them too.


 
I was doing a fire extinguisher class last year for the guys that run the terminal here in Bangor . . . and I specifically asked about purchasing av gas and they said that selling it for any purposes other than aircraft results in some stiff fines for them and so they've been pretty careful about who and how the gas is sold.


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## Bigg_Redd (Apr 2, 2012)

BrianK said:


> A number of small engine shops around here recommend buying gas at the local airport, as it contains no ethanol.


 

x 1 million

Been running AvGas for 9 years - chief among it's benefits is that it never goes bad


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## Bigg_Redd (Apr 2, 2012)

[quote="MasterMech, post: 1101129, member: 18173"*]Not every airport is willing to sell AvGas since it is leaded (If it's 100LL you're buying) and they can't guarantee you're not pouring it in your car*. (Despite being 100 Low-Lead it actually contains more TEL [lead] than auto fuel did in the 60's) It's illegal to run in any over-the-highway motor vehicle. While I believe it's still legal to run in small engines and it shouldn't cause catastrophic damage, (The lead deposits aren't necessary tho.) I don't think it's a great idea since most of these engines exhaust within close proximity to the user. Love the smell of 2-stroke in the morning? (I do!) Keep in mind that running AvGas will put lead vapor in that aroma.

Beware some newer power equipment may have a catalytic muffler installed and 100LL AvGas will plug that up in short order. Same goes for ANYTHING using O2 sensors as the lead deposits will kill them too.[/quote]

Must be an east-coast thing. . .


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## Jags (Apr 2, 2012)

I must just be "Forrest Gump" lucky, but I run 87 octane, ethanol fuel in virtually everything I have (and I gotz lotz of engines). It is DANG rare that I ever have an issue associated with fuel. I don't treat it, sniff it, poke at it in any way. Just burn it. I have everything from old skool to newer string trimmers, saws, etc. Dunno, maybe one of these days my luck will run out, but Illinois was a consumer of ethanol fuel from the start of it, so I have been doing this for a long time.

I just did the head math and can instantly come up with 16 internal combustion engines that I work.  I probably forgot a couple.


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## lukem (Apr 2, 2012)

Call me crazy, but I've never run my equipment dry and/or stabilized the fuel for winter. My saw, splitter, and blower get used year round, but the trimmer and mower sit all winter. I've never had a fuel system issue, yet.


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## Jags (Apr 2, 2012)

lukem said:


> Call me crazy, but I've never run my equipment dry and/or stabilized the fuel for winter. My saw and blower get used year round, but the trimmer and mower sit all winter. I've never had a fuel system issue, yet.


 
Must be a mid-west thing.


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## lukem (Apr 2, 2012)

We





Jags said:


> Must be a mid-west thing.


 
Yep, and my equipment consumes more moonshine than I do...probably.


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## gpcollen1 (Apr 2, 2012)

While I have never had an issue with 'bad' gas, I started using some sea foam in my fuel a few years back.  Still no issues.  Figured a stabilizer would not hurt.  Only bad gas i ever had was when i bought my boat and the gas can for the outboard had not been used for 10 years


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## blujacket (Apr 2, 2012)

Seafoam in all my gear


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## wkpoor (Apr 2, 2012)

Fuels are not the same the country over. My guess living ere in the corn belt ethanol is prevalent in all pump gas sold unless you find a pure gas station and thy are mostly around water. Just like summer and winter fuels are different.


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## NH_Wood (Apr 2, 2012)

Quick question: when you run an engine dry for winter storage, do you run an added risk of gaskets, etc., drying and cracking? Cheers!


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## pen (Apr 2, 2012)

I bought a dune buggy w/ a 1600 air cooled motor last year that had been sitting for a few years w/ rotten fuel in it. I usually use sea foam in my products but I had a good amount of stabil in an older bottle that I saw in the garage I had forgotten about and was out of sea foam. The car would run but would have hesitation, idling issues, common symptoms for having a varnished up carb.

Before pulling the carb and rebuilding I figured what the heck and put in about 3-4x as much stabil as what the label recommends for the gas that was in the car (It says using a double dose for gas that was untreated, but I just wanted to use the bottle up). It wasn't 5 miles down the road after putting that in that the old mistreated girl just woke up and acted appropriate.

I suppose it could have been a coincidence that it cleared up then and would have done it w/out the stabil, but I doubt it. Since I used stabil, I'll never know if the sea foam would have done the same job or not. I have used sea foam in the gas since, and haven't noticed any change in performance for the better or the worse. I add it most every time it gets gas since it doesn't get many miles in a year.

I've used either sea foam or stabil in all my equipment as long as I've owned equipment. I also start everything up at least every 2 months and let run for a while. If the equipment has a fuel shutoff it gets the fuel shut down and carb run dry. If there is no shutoff, I just leave the gas in it.

Again, no telling here if the stabil / sea foam is what has made things keep working for me, or if it's because I don't let them sit too long w/out some use. All I do know for certain is that what I have been doing has been working on equipment for years, so I'll just keep the same routine going.  In that time, I've never seen any unforseen failures such as rotted fuel lines either.  I've had a few get old and look like they needed replacement, but that can happen to anything.

pen


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## BrotherBart (Apr 2, 2012)

I am gonna start an Internet email going around that Yak pee is better than Stabil. Then buy a couple of Yaks.


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## LLigetfa (Apr 2, 2012)

blujacket said:


> Seafoam in all my gear


+1
I don't bother with Stabil or high-test.  My old saw has low enough compression that it doesn't need high octane gas.  In fact none of my OPE does.


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## Jack Straw (Apr 2, 2012)

I have had several engines that had what I can desribes as a "chicken fat" like substance in the carb. I clean the carb and they run good. I got a very nice Honda mower cheap just because of that. I wonder on the original post if the guy had added stabil in the Fall to old gas. I treat my gas when I get it. Sea Foam seems to do well. My old plow truck was idling terrible and the Sea Foam took care of that.


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## wkpoor (Apr 2, 2012)

LLigetfa said:


> +1
> I don't bother with Stabil or high-test. My old saw has low enough compression that it doesn't need high octane gas. In fact none of my OPE does.


 Using high test has nothing to do with needing the octane. It simply about the quality of the fuel. I think most people are cornfused about that. And higher octane fuel is plenty fine for low compression engines. Look at airplane recips. They are typically very low compression yet run on 100 octane.


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## BrotherBart (Apr 2, 2012)

Here is a guy home brewing Seafoam.

http://hildstrom.com/projects/seafoam/index.html


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## FanMan (Apr 2, 2012)

Local hardware store sells ethanol free gas in quart in gallon cans... pricey (about $20/gallon) but how much do you really use in a chainsaw?

Avgas no problem for me, I buy it for my ultralight plane during the winter when I don't fly much since it stores better, but I use ordinary car gas (with 10% ethanol) with no trouble all summer.  The lead in avgas can cause problems too, spark plug fouling and lead deposits on valves in a 4-stroke engine.


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## Halligan (Apr 2, 2012)

FanMan said:


> Local hardware store sells ethanol free gas in quart in gallon cans... pricey (about $20/gallon) but how much do you really use in a chainsaw?
> 
> Avgas no problem for me, I buy it for my ultralight plane during the winter when I don't fly much since it stores better, but I use ordinary car gas (with 10% ethanol) with no trouble all summer. The lead in avgas can cause problems too, spark plug fouling and lead deposits on valves in a 4-stroke engine.


 
Are you referring to Trufuel? I've seen that sold at Lowes and I've been purchasing the slightly more expensive Stihl Motomix fuel. I don't run my saw on this fuel while cutting but when laying the saw up for more than a few weeks I drain the gas, run the saw until it stalls, add a little Motomix and start saw to circulate through the carburator, shut saw off. Trufuel and Stihl Motomix come from the same factory with Motmix using Stihls HP Ultra synthetic oil. Trufuel does claim to use synthetic oil so I'm sure it's just as good. The nice thing is that the shelf life is 2 years for either fuel and it's ethanol free.


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## MasterMech (Apr 3, 2012)

Jags said:


> I must just be "Forrest Gump" lucky, but I run 87 octane, ethanol fuel in virtually everything I have (and I gotz lotz of engines). It is DANG rare that I ever have an issue associated with fuel. I don't treat it, sniff it, poke at it in any way. Just burn it. I have everything from old skool to newer string trimmers, saws, etc. Dunno, maybe one of these days my luck will run out, but Illinois was a consumer of ethanol fuel from the start of it, so I have been doing this for a long time.
> 
> I just did the head math and can instantly come up with 16 internal combustion engines that I work. I probably forgot a couple.


 
You ain't the only one Jags.


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## FanMan (Apr 3, 2012)

Halligan said:


> Are you referring to Trufuel? I've seen that sold at Lowes and I've been purchasing the slightly more expensive Stihl Motomix fuel. I don't run my saw on this fuel while cutting but when laying the saw up for more than a few weeks I drain the gas, run the saw until it stalls, add a little Motomix and start saw to circulate through the carburator, shut saw off. Trufuel and Stihl Motomix come from the same factory with Motmix using Stihls HP Ultra synthetic oil. Trufuel does claim to use synthetic oil so I'm sure it's just as good. The nice thing is that the shelf life is 2 years for either fuel and it's ethanol free.


 
I don't recall the brand name... I do know they sold straight gas as well as gas/oil premix.


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## billb3 (Apr 3, 2012)

Jags said:


> I must just be "Forrest Gump" lucky, but I run 87 octane, ethanol fuel in virtually everything I have (and I gotz lotz of engines). It is DANG rare that I ever have an issue associated with fuel. I don't treat it, sniff it, poke at it in any way. Just burn it. I have everything from old skool to newer string trimmers, saws, etc. Dunno, maybe one of these days my luck will run out, but Illinois was a consumer of ethanol fuel from the start of it, so I have been doing this for a long time.
> 
> I just did the head math and can instantly come up with 16 internal combustion engines that I work. I probably forgot a couple.


 

I've never Winterized either, but  I'm starting to be suspicious of any jugs of gas sitting around for long periods of time.


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## firefighterjake (Apr 3, 2012)

BrotherBart said:


> I am gonna start an Internet email going around that Yak pee is better than Stabil. Then buy a couple of Yaks.


 
But you want Tibetan yaks . . . the Nepalese yaks are no good -- you use the Nepalese yak pee and it will gum things up for sure vs. using the Tibetan yak pee.


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## gmule (Apr 3, 2012)

You can also buy clean fuel without ethanol from motorcycle shops as well. They sell it in 5 gal cans called race fuel. Personally I just park them like I found them. In my area we have 10% ethanol blends in the winter.but not in the summer. If I have a small engine that  is hard to start  because of bad fuel I just give the air cleaner a shot of starting fluid and that usually gets them running.


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## LLigetfa (Apr 3, 2012)

wkpoor said:


> Using high test has nothing to do with needing the octane..


You can label me as "confused" if you want but I'm not buying the "nothing to do with needing the octane" bit.  Yes, most premium gas has more other additives but even the most basic gas you buy today is better than what they were selling a decade or two ago.  I like BB's comment in his sig "The "Good Old Days" weren't" cuz I think a lot of folks have a revisionist recollection of history.

I have far fewer problem with gas today than I did a decade or three ago.  I feel no need to go out of my way to buy av-gas nor do I need to add YakPiss or Stabil.  A little bit of Seafoam works wonders for me.


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## Bigg_Redd (Apr 3, 2012)

LLigetfa said:


> You can label me as "confused" if you want but I'm not buying the "nothing to do with needing the octane" bit. Yes, most premium gas has more other additives but even the most basic gas you buy today is better than what they were selling a decade or two ago. I like BB's comment in his sig "The "Good Old Days" weren't" cuz I think a lot of folks have a revisionist recollection of history.
> 
> I have far fewer problem with gas today than I did a decade or three ago. I feel no need to go out of my way to buy av-gas nor do I need to add YakPiss or Stabil. A little bit of Seafoam works wonders for me.


 

Yeah!


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## wkpoor (Apr 3, 2012)

> I have far fewer problem with gas today than I did a decade or three ago. I feel no need to go out of my way to buy av-gas nor do I need to add YakPiss or Stabil. A little bit of Seafoam works wonders for me.


So your telling me fuel today that only stays fresh for about a month is better than fuel of 20yrs ago that wold still burn good after a year in the can. You can take a cup of todays gas and let is evaporate in a dish and see what all is left behind. Al that stuff is what plugs up passage ways. If its so good then why is it not allowed in aircraft tanks? Because those engines have to run reliably even if your plane hasn't been run in several months or a year. Alot of things we do today to satisfy the EPA isn't necessarily better although cleaner yes.


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## FanMan (Apr 3, 2012)

wkpoor said:


> If its so good then why is it not allowed in aircraft tanks? Because those engines have to run reliably even if your plane hasn't been run in several months or a year. Alot of things we do today to satisfy the EPA isn't necessarily better although cleaner yes.


 
Actually, many light planes are certified to run on car gas, as long as it doesn't contain ethanol.  Unfortunately, it's impossible to get ethanol free car gas in many parts of the country.


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## wkpoor (Apr 3, 2012)

FanMan said:


> Actually, many light planes are certified to run on car gas, as long as it doesn't contain ethanol. Unfortunately, it's impossible to get ethanol free car gas in many parts of the country.


 That is correct. I haven't read one of those STC's for auto fuel but my guess its laced with restictions. I used to hear of people using pump gas in the 80's but haven't heard of any for yrs. I think a smart owner operator would stay very far away from pump gas in an airplane. You can say all you want how good you think it is in your weed wacker but put your but behind a prop and I'll bet you don't think its so good.


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## LLigetfa (Apr 3, 2012)

wkpoor said:


> So your telling me fuel today that only stays fresh for about a month...


PFFT!  I think we have us a hypochondriac.  Today's gas lasts me for months/years.  It was so long ago that I mixed up the gas for my chainsaw that I don't remember if it is 2 or 3 years old.  I leave all my OPE tanks filled up while in storage and they run fine on last year's gas.  Maybe not perfect, but nothing a bit of Seafoam won't take care of.


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## Gary_602z (Apr 3, 2012)

BrotherBart said:


> I am gonna start an Internet email going around that Yak pee is better than Stabil. Then buy a couple of Yaks.


 
That is one way to get rid of them empty Naty Light cans!

Gary


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## FanMan (Apr 3, 2012)

wkpoor said:


> That is correct. I haven't read one of those STC's for auto fuel but my guess its laced with restictions. I used to hear of people using pump gas in the 80's but haven't heard of any for yrs. I think a smart owner operator would stay very far away from pump gas in an airplane. You can say all you want how good you think it is in your weed wacker but put your but behind a prop and I'll bet you don't think its so good.


 
Many people are still using car gas in their planes. In states where ethanol free fuel is available, some airports have mogas pumps alongside the avgas pumps. Uncertified aircraft engines (used in homebuilts and ultralights), and some new certified engines, can use mogas with ethanol (Rotax allows up to 10% ethanol). I use mogas in my plane and have had no issues except for the need for a minor jetting adjustment (ethanol runs leaner). Better that than lead fouling from regular use of 100 octane fuel (if 80 octane avgas was still made I'd use it).


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## wkpoor (Apr 3, 2012)

LLigetfa said:


> PFFT! I think we have us a hypochondriac. Today's gas lasts me for months/years. It was so long ago that I mixed up the gas for my chainsaw that I don't remember if it is 2 or 3 years old. I leave all my OPE tanks filled up while in storage and they run fine on last year's gas. Maybe not perfect, but nothing a bit of Seafoam won't take care of.


 Lets go back to what started this thread. I was given a wacker and a blower that would not run after winter storage. Both had ethanol damage and fish eggs in the carb and both were loaded with fresh gas and stabil last fall and run a little before being put up. When I dumped out the gas it looked and stunk like old fuel. And this isn't the first time I've seen this. Just the first time a trusted source said they used stabil and it obviously wasn't the answer in this case. Both units are less than 10yrs old. Also its possible pump gas insn't the same everywhere in the country. It sounds from this forum west coasters aren't having as much trouble. If this is such a non issue then why would retailers be selling mower gas and why does my local mower shop have a back room full of hand held OPE right now in for service?


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## wkpoor (Apr 3, 2012)

FanMan said:


> Many people are still using car gas in their planes. In states where ethanol free fuel is available, some airports have mogas pumps alongside the avgas pumps. Uncertified aircraft engines (used in homebuilts and ultralights), and some new certified engines, can use mogas with ethanol (Rotax allows up to 10% ethanol). I use mogas in my plane and have had no issues except for the need for a minor jetting adjustment (ethanol runs leaner). Better that than lead fouling from regular use of 100 octane fuel (if 80 octane avgas was still made I'd use it).


 Buddy a couple hangers down says the lead fouling is most prevelant in engines certified for 80 octane. I personally have not seen any fouling on plugs in anything at the house. In fact they usually look unbelievably clean.


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## ScotO (Apr 3, 2012)

Bottom line is the corn lobby runs this country.  This ethanol gas is garbage.  I run it in my equipment, go a little richer on the oil mix and I've never had a problem.  But if you let it sit for, say, six months or more, it 'phase separates'.  The ethanol settles in the tank, and when you go to start up your saw, mower, trimmer, etc.......guess what?  it's getting a full blast of straight alcohol.  That ruins engines.........Not to mention the solvent-like decay it does to rubber, nylon, plastic, etc.  And the mileage goes to chit  in your vehicle, too.  OK, I'm done ranting....


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## MasterMech (Apr 4, 2012)

Ethanol fuel blends phase separate not based on time but moisture content.  I bet most folks having trouble with fuel fouling in the can are using non-CARB approved cans (not that there's anything wrong with that) and leaving the vents cracked or open to prevent pressure buildup.  Poly fuel tanks/cans also expand more with temperature fluctuations and so they "breathe" far more than metal cans.  That breathing exposes the fuel to moisture in the atmosphere via condensation inside the container.  The more extreme/frequent the temperature fluctuation is, the worse the problem becomes. 

No matter what fuel your using, and this includes the AvGas crowd, the rules are pretty much the same.

1.) Keep it in a sealed container.
2.) Protect it from extreme temperature fluctuations.
3.) Keep it in the dark.

It's amazing how much longer fuel lasts in equipment that sits in my garage vs. my shed.


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## wkpoor (Apr 4, 2012)

> leaving the vents cracked or open to prevent pressure buildup.


I know from experience if you vent a can or tank with Avgas you soon will have none. Lost about 15gallons off the top of a 55gal container one summer by letting it vent.


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## HittinSteel (Apr 4, 2012)

MasterMech said:


> Ethanol fuel blends phase separate not based on time but moisture content. I bet most folks having trouble with fuel fouling in the can are using non-CARB approved cans (not that there's anything wrong with that) and leaving the vents cracked or open to prevent pressure buildup. Poly fuel tanks/cans also expand more with temperature fluctuations and so they "breathe" far more than metal cans. That breathing exposes the fuel to moisture in the atmosphere via condensation inside the container. The more extreme/frequent the temperature fluctuation is, the worse the problem becomes.
> 
> No matter what fuel your using, and this includes the AvGas crowd, the rules are pretty much the same.
> 
> ...


 
I bought a new trimmer last spring. So I am doing a study on my old weedeater. It has the same tank of gas with stabil (marine) with 93 octane 10% ethanol in it that was in it last spring. Started normally a few days ago and ran very well. Hung it back up on the shelf and will try it again next spring. So the mix is just fine after 1 year.

Caveat..... I run fresh mix/gas in my chainsaws and outboard motor. Just posting my "unofficial" study results.


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## gpcollen1 (Apr 4, 2012)

LLigetfa said:


> PFFT! I think we have us a hypochondriac. Today's gas lasts me for months/years. It was so long ago that I mixed up the gas for my chainsaw that I don't remember if it is 2 or 3 years old. I leave all my OPE tanks filled up while in storage and they run fine on last year's gas. Maybe not perfect, but nothing a bit of Seafoam won't take care of.


 
Exactly!  How the hell do i still have a 5 gallon can in my garage that i filled in NOvember.  Just mixed some up for the chain saw and it actually ran.  How the hell does my snowblower start up year after year after sitting for 8 months.  How did that quad I bought that sat for 2 years still run?  It actually ran rough until I loaded the tank with sea foam.


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## billb3 (Apr 4, 2012)

wkpoor said:


> Lets go back to what started this thread. I was given a wacker and a blower that would not run after winter storage. Both had ethanol damage and fish eggs in the carb and both were loaded with fresh gas and stabil last fall and run a little before being put up. When I dumped out the gas it looked and stunk like old fuel. And this isn't the first time I've seen this. Just the first time a trusted source said they used stabil and it obviously wasn't the answer in this case. Both units are less than 10yrs old. Also its possible pump gas insn't the same everywhere in the country. It sounds from this forum west coasters aren't having as much trouble. If this is such a non issue then why would retailers be selling mower gas and why does my local mower shop have a back room full of hand held OPE right now in for service?


It's my understanding that ethanol absorbs moisture leading to the fish eggs and jello like crap. I try to keep caps tight, tanks full or empty and I'm using a tablespoon of seafoam in any tanks that sit for a few months, especially snowblowers and rototillers that get used so infrequently. I have  drained a tank because the gas was a golden yellow and full of sludgy stuff on the bottom. (snowblower).  I've also used seafoam and made things worse with a rider that sat for two years. So it seems to help, but only up to a certain point.


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## charly (Apr 4, 2012)

SeaFoam, never any problems. Amsoil quickshot and StarTron as well. My Stihl Pro 360 saw is over 9 years old with all it's original carb parts and hoses.


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## amateur cutter (Apr 4, 2012)

I personally don't want anything in my saws that runs leaner, nor do I want anything that draws moisture. 3 of the 4 saws have more than enough compression to warrant 90+ octane fuel to prevent detonation. Keep in mind that car engines have knock sensors & timing retard features in the ECM's for reason, as well as very rapid mixture adjustments. Like every few milliseconds on the very newest models. All these things allow the ECM to compensate for varying fuel quality. In the saws & other ope that I run I want the most consistent quality I can get. For the 50 to 60 gals. of mix I burn per year, the extra money is well worth it. IMHO there's a reason Stihl is selling most replacement carbs at their cost. My dealer told me it's due ethanol damage & not being able to find plastic/rubber components that will hold up to it long term.  Just my .02. A C


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## Angelo C (Apr 6, 2012)

Folks,
If you are running Stihl Synthetic mix you already have a stabilizer in the mix. NOt sure of all the other brands but no need for Stabil if you run Synth. Read the bottle it says so right on the label.

I keep my OPE in the basement and rarely does the mix go bad. I think its the temp, sun and humidity swings that corrode the fuels. Corroding the lines is just a matter of time though. rubber in petroleum will deteriorate sooner or later.


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## oldspark (Apr 6, 2012)

wkpoor said:


> Fuels are not the same the country over. My guess living ere in the corn belt ethanol is prevalent in all pump gas sold unless you find a pure gas station and thy are mostly around water. Just like summer and winter fuels are different.


Nope, almost every station here in Iowa for the most part has non ethanol gas, we make it here but they are not shoving it down our throats, never have used it in a 2 stroke.


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## ethanhudson (Apr 6, 2012)

oldspark said:


> Nope, almost every station here in Iowa for the most part has not ethanol gas, we make it here but they are not shoving it down our throats, never have used it in a 2 stroke.


 
Yeah, I live in western South Dakota and while we do have stations that sell E10 most if not all gas stations sell at least one octane (91) ethanol free.  I personally have no idea if ethanol hurts carbs, fuel lines, injectors whatever...  but I don't wanna find out either so I use 91 E free in everything I operate (unless it's diesel motor obviously)


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## nate379 (Apr 6, 2012)

Sounds like I need to bottle gas and sell it to people in the L48!  We don't have ethanol fuel here.


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## wkpoor (Apr 6, 2012)

It sounds like not everyone around the country has the same fuel which at least partly might explain why some have trouble and some do not.


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## MasterMech (Apr 7, 2012)

Just fired the BR600 up today (an engine notoriously picky about it's oil) and it ran perfectly (started first yank too) on the AMSOIL mix I had in it from the fall.  And +1 on the Stihl oils having stabilizer in 'em already.


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## elwoodps (Apr 8, 2012)

A number of posts in this thread suggest running engines out of gas prior to storage. That's fine for engines that don't run on mixed-gas, but I'd recommend against deliberately running mixed-gas engines out of fuel.

In a mixed gas engine, the gas/oil/air mixture coming from the carburetor passes through the crankcase, lubricating the main and rod bearings, on it's way to the intake port and into the cylinder where it lubricates the cylinder walls and piston before it's burned. So remember that when you run a mixed-gas engine out of "gas", _you're also running it out of oil at the same time._

Yeah, I know that that running mixed-gas engines out of fuel doesn't wreck them instantly. I've done it more than a few times myself. Even deliberately on occasion, before the lubrication angle was pointed out to me. But I suspect that it reduces the life of the engine a little bit each time it happens. By how much? I have no idea, but why do it more often than necessary?

For similar reasons, the use of staring fluid (ether) in mixed-gas engines is even more problematic. I addition to providing no lubrication whatsoever, starting fluid is one of the most powerful degreasers you can buy.


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## LLigetfa (Apr 8, 2012)

elwoodps said:


> A number of posts in this thread suggest running engines out of gas prior to storage. That's fine for engines that don't run on mixed-gas, but I'd recommend against deliberately running mixed-gas engines out of fuel...


+1
I never run my saw out of gas for the purpose of storage.

Further to that, I've seen/heard some folk try to finish a cut as the saw is starting to run out of gas and it makes me cringe.  The very moment I hear the saw lean out, I hit the kill switch regardless of where I am in the cut.


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## Bigg_Redd (Apr 8, 2012)

Non-ethanol gas is very nearly impossible to find in western WA


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## jeff_t (Apr 8, 2012)

LLigetfa said:


> Further to that, I've seen/heard some folk try to finish a cut as the saw is starting to run out of gas and it makes me cringe.  The very moment I hear the saw lean out, I hit the kill switch regardless of where I am in the cut.



Yep. I think that's what killed mine. I was cutting a stump off, and pulled out of the cut to reposition. I was just getting back into it at near wot when it went. There was no indication, it just quit like I hit the kill switch. I probably should have checked, since it was the fourth 30" or so stump I was working on. Live and learn, I guess.


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## ScotO (Apr 8, 2012)

jeff_t said:


> Yep. I think that's what killed mine. I was cutting a stump off, and pulled out of the cut to reposition. I was just getting back into it at near wot when it went. There was no indication, it just quit like I hit the kill switch. I probably should have checked, since it was the fourth 30" or so stump I was working on. Live and learn, I guess.


If the saw sputters under throttle, or if it starts to climb in rpms without having the throttle touched, its time to shut it down and refuel.  Make that a cardinal rule and you'll never ruin an engine that way again.


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## ScotO (Apr 8, 2012)

nate379 said:


> Sounds like I need to bottle gas and sell it to people in the L48!  We don't have ethanol fuel here.


 I'm sure that's because of your extreme cold climate during the winter months.  Don't worry, they'll figure out a way to ruin your gas soon enough.


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## jeff_t (Apr 8, 2012)

Scotty Overkill said:


> If the saw sputters under throttle, or if it starts to climb in rpms without having the throttle touched, its time to shut it down and refuel.  Make that a cardinal rule and you'll never ruin an engine that way again.



That's what I meant when I said there was no indication. It just went from a lot of revs to off. It all worked out ok though, I got to make a 79cc saw out of the 6400.


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## MasterMech (Apr 8, 2012)

elwoodps said:


> A number of posts in this thread suggest running engines out of gas prior to storage. That's fine for engines that don't run on mixed-gas, but I'd recommend against deliberately running mixed-gas engines out of fuel.
> 
> In a mixed gas engine, the gas/oil/air mixture coming from the carburetor passes through the crankcase, lubricating the main and rod bearings, on it's way to the intake port and into the cylinder where it lubricates the cylinder walls and piston before it's burned. So remember that when you run a mixed-gas engine out of "gas", _you're also running it out of oil at the same time._
> 
> ...


 
+1 on keeping the starting fluid away from small engines. They just don't like that big of a bang. I substitute Carb & Choke cleaner. Much safer but you can overdo it especially with our little 2-strokes.

Running a pre-mix engine outta fuel will not starve it for lubrication immediately. Certainly not in the time it takes to coast to a stop. The oil residue/film is still there doing it's job even after you run out of fuel. There is no manufacturer that I know of warning us that running our engine out of fuel will result in permanent engine damage. If that were the case I'd think there would be more documented warranty issues for users running there equipment dry. In fact, most manufacturers RECOMMEND running equipment dry for storage. Of course you could accomplish similar results by dumping the tank and pumping the primer, assuming your engine has one.

Gotta love these old wives tales about how to destroy your engine.


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## ScotO (Apr 8, 2012)

I would rather not run an engine dry.  If you plan to do that, I would recommend NOT running it out of gas under throttle.  Just my HO.


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## MasterMech (Apr 8, 2012)

Nobody gets hurt being extra cautious.


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## LLigetfa (Apr 8, 2012)

I can't speak for every saw ever made, but my saw doesn't just run out of gas and stop in short order.  It leans out and screams as it starts sucking a mix of air and fuel through the pickup.

Go ahead, throw caution to the wind and do as wish with your saw.  I'ts no old wives tale that running a saw lean is not good for it.  Maybe dispelling it as a myth helps you get repeat business.


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## MasterMech (Apr 10, 2012)

LLigetfa said:


> I can't speak for every saw ever made, but my saw doesn't just run out of gas and stop in short order. It leans out and screams as it starts sucking a mix of air and fuel through the pickup.
> 
> Go ahead, throw caution to the wind and do as wish with your saw. I'ts no old wives tale that running a saw lean is not good for it. Maybe dispelling it as a myth helps you get repeat business.


 

Actually poor advice seldom results in repeat business and anything I recommend is practiced/tested with my own equipment. Considering there is not a scuff on the 034's cylinder/piston, I'd say we're getting along just fine.

If I really was into dispensing advice for profit there wouldn't be so much of it available here for free.


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## oldspark (Apr 11, 2012)

I have a 34 year old 045 that has ran out of gas a few times in its day, no harm yet but I will let you know.


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## mecreature (Apr 11, 2012)

I try not to run my 2 strokes out of gas.
I do a lot of other quirky things too, I guess.

I have seen a map that has petro stations around that has non-ethonal gas.
there is one about 5 miles from me. I need to try it.

I bought a bottle of motomix and trufuel. I filled my saws and ran them a bit.
they might not see any action for a bit. I don't know if this is good or not.
I have usually used fresh gas and stabil for this


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## wkpoor (Apr 11, 2012)

The gas thing might be partly a regional issue. Talking to a guy who repairs stuff at the house yesterday. He is seeing what I'm seeing. People are dragging in OPE by the hoards all with fuel issues. Carbs always full of fish eggs and fuel lines or other stuff rotted. Seems this crappy gas is good for the OPE repair business.


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## LLigetfa (Apr 11, 2012)

oldspark said:


> I have a 34 year old 045 that has ran out of gas a few times in its day, no harm yet but I will let you know.


Well... I'd be surprised if, in 34 years, you DIDN'T run out of gas so I'm not sure what your point is.


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## oldspark (Apr 11, 2012)

A couple of posts talked about running out of gas and damaging the engine over time, I was just saying I am wainting for it to happen after 34 years, I aint gonna live long enough to see it happen. I have no point.


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## LLigetfa (Apr 11, 2012)

I knew a guy that would hang around race tracks promoting a brand of oil additive.  He would drain the oil from his engine and drive around the track to demonstrate the protection the additive provided.  Now, I doubt he could do that for 34 years and I don't really have a point with that anecdote either.

My saw is older than yours and I've run it out of gas countless times.  The difference is that I kill the engine right away rather that let it scream leaned out until the last drop is gone.  I've also never deliberately ran it dry for the purpose of storage, preferring to store it with the carb full.


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## oldspark (Apr 11, 2012)

Well LLigetfa you and I are doing it the same way so I guess that's why our saws are still running after all these years.


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## Corey (Apr 11, 2012)

BrianK said:


> A number of small engine shops around here recommend buying gas at the local airport, as it contains no ethanol.


 

This, along with buying "100% real" gas seems pretty silly...and a big waste of money to me.  It's the gas going bad, not the ethanol.  I've got 7 and 15 year old bottles of whiskey on the shelf and they are as good or better than the day they were new.  Try that with gasoline!  But I guess as PT said...every minute someone else will fall for the ethanol myth and spend $20 bucks a gallon for gasoline.


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## pen (Apr 11, 2012)

I do believe this topic's discussion has gotten as far as it is going to go.

pen


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