# My Garn Corrosion Fiasco Part 1



## Rick Stanley (Feb 6, 2011)

I have wanted to to share this since it happened last November. I want this NOT to be a Garn bashing session although I was VERY pi$$ed when it happened. So I have waited, cooled off and checked things out so as to figure out and share WHY it happened and what we did about it, so others (including Dectra, Garn dealers and PrecisionChem) could benefit and save themselves some hassle. After all, education and sharing is what the Boiler Room is all about.

So, I got the Garn online in Oct of 09. Followed all recommended start-up/flush/add chemicals/fill/water-testing (done in Jan/10) procedure. Water test (chemical analysis only, no bio test) results were ok so ran it all Winter, shut it down in the Spring, walked away and let it sit idle all summer. In the Fall, last November, in between getting wood put in and other getting-ready-for-winter farm stuff I drew a water sample from a purge valve near the heat-exchanger in my basement and got it sent of to PrecisionChem. There is a spot on the bottom of the water test form for remarks and comments. I had put in there what I could see through the manway and that was that the water was clear enough to see the flue tubes but had a brown color and that I could see brown foam floating at the water line against the tank wall. The results, including a bio test this time, came back A-OK!! But, because of the comments, they recommended draining, flushing and re-filling with new treatment.

When it was drained it looked bad so I snapped these pics and emailed them to Mike at PrecisionChem. He responded right away, set-up a time to call me, we discussed a plan of attack or "path to recovery"as he put it. He said the pics showed for sure that there was bacteria in the water and excessive steam production at the waterline had created an environment that caused corrosion.


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## woodsmaster (Feb 6, 2011)

bummer. Hope all is well now.


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## TCaldwell (Feb 6, 2011)

Rick, what were his reccomendations.


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## BoilerBob (Feb 6, 2011)

I hope you sent Mr. Garn these photos, interested in knowing his response.


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## Rick Stanley (Feb 6, 2011)

Part 2

The first recommendation was to use a garden hose and soft bristle brush to removed only the loose material and NOT expose any bare metal. At that point in was impossible to know how much corrosion, if any, had actually taken place just by looking at it. Here's a couple of shots of me trying that, but I could see right away that I had solid, attached deposits. Also here's a shot of the ceiling that shows pretty well how the action had occurred at and above the waterline and then kinda drooled down from there. The deposits were crusty on the outside and soft on the inside, wish is typical of bacteriological corrosion according to PrecisionChem.


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## Sawyer (Feb 6, 2011)

Wow! Now I am worried.

I believe we all have steam and an area above the waterline for expansion where this can happen.

Did you hear anything from Detra?

What is the solution to avoid this?


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## Como (Feb 6, 2011)

There seems to be two related issues and you would have thought both have a chemical solution.

I did a quick google search and came up with problems all the way from the Space Station to a Canadian Naval Ship that had to be taken out of service for a while.

This was from a UK source, but written in a form I could understand.

http://www.plumbingpages.com/featurepages/WaterProblem.cfm


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## Rick Stanley (Feb 6, 2011)

PART 3

After I sent the previous pics (in part 2) to PrecisionChem and explained that the deposits were attached, they recommended wire brushing to bare metal and pressure washing. Only then could you see that the corrosion had penetrated the steel.  I had never used a pressure washer before, and inside of a tank isn't a very pleasant place to learn, so I didn't get very good results the first time around, plus it really sucked because the tank was still hot. Not fun.
   Anyways, here are a few pics of that session. It cleaned it up some but not good enough. More to come...........


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## brad068 (Feb 6, 2011)

Honestly I don't think that is all to bad when compared to mine.  I have never added any treatment as of yet but will this year.

 I let mine rough up the surfaces of the flue pipes, gives the water more surface area to transfer heat.


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## bigburner (Feb 6, 2011)

I use Mike. Just started this year. I talked/asked before on earlier post about water loss threw evaporation on the Garns - for the reason that I was curious about the above the water line environment. Mike and I talked about it at length and decided the best way was to eliminate it. I use a loose cover and a float fill valve to keep the tank filled to the very top. When it cools and then heats I do get a little out the over flow. [because the Make Up water fills the void]


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## TCaldwell (Feb 6, 2011)

just a thought,what about a small media or soda blaster, and then some sort of coating or sealing agent?


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## Sawyer (Feb 6, 2011)

If this is a problem area it surprises me that Garn coats the bottom but not the top.


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## steam man (Feb 6, 2011)

I am not familiar with bacterial corrosion since all I do is high pressure marine boilers. I have laid up marine boilers countless times and never do we just "walk away". In a wet lay up method we fill the boiler drums all the way to the top with distilled water and use a relatively heavy dose of an oxygen scavenger. The ph should be slightly alkaline, say 8.3 or so. We then would use a head tank as high as possible to keep pressure on the boilers thus no air space to allow rust to form. The furnace sides would typically have a heater installed but dessicant could be used. I am just wondering how much of this could be attributed to an idle lay up.


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## Fred61 (Feb 6, 2011)

The water has got to be continually condensing and raining from the upper surface, only makes sense! If there were a rust treatment that would remain mixed with the vapor, that would be the cat's a s. Do ya suppose better insulation on the top of the tank would help?

Do they have a sacrificial anode installed in these units?


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## charly (Feb 6, 2011)

I remember someone posting on here about corrision in boilers,  one should never shut the circulator down on a boiler that is out of service for the warmer months. Just wondering if that would have maybe helped out on the corrosion , keeping the water moving. Sorry you had to have that happen after taking the time to try to prevent that in the first place. I know that's a dreaded issue with aircraft, anytime corrosion starts it seems very hard to arrest. Hope you get it resolved and all the other Garn owners will benefit as well. It's good that you even cared to check as to get years  of use out of your Garn. Hope Garn steps up to the plate for you. That's a big investment on top of all the work that goes into the installation alone. Hopefully it won't have to be exchanged out for some reason. Good Luck!


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## charly (Feb 6, 2011)

Have you talked to wood boiler solutions,LLC. They were great people when I dealt with them for an outdoor wood boiler I had years ago. Then sent me a free 25 dollar water test kit and only sold me what was needed after a water test was done first. No blanket treatment. I believe they make a solution that treats the air above the water line and keeps any exposed metal from corroding. They are great people to deal with. www.woodboilersolutions.com


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## pybyr (Feb 6, 2011)

Regret to hear of this- and hope you have/ find a solution.

Here I've been with a mild case of "Garn Envy" thinking that only the rest of us ran into frustrating quirks...


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## Rick Stanley (Feb 6, 2011)

PART 4

Like I said, I had never used a pressure washer before, plus I wasn't sure how much I was suppose to be taking off. After sending Mike more pics and emailing back and forth some more I got the hang of it. He sent me some chemicals, I added, fired, circulated, drained and pressure washed again with the tightest nozzle of the three that came with the washer. Here are some shots of the result.

ps- you can see anode rod


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## jebatty (Feb 6, 2011)

The comment from *steam man* on use of a head tank makes so much sense a person could be surprised that this has not come up before. It would turn a Garn into a pressure boiler of some sort, depending on the height of the head tank. I wonder what the inside of other Garn's look like, how far the corrosion progresses, and reports of failures. Other comments from some Garn users show a long life, trouble free. Some claim they haven't followed the treatment regimen. Will be very interested in hearing how Garn follows up to cover your costs, time, equipment and materials, as well as covering the additional chemical treatment, etc. Might there be something unique about your water, Rick, that had lead to this, water testing notwithstanding?


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## jebatty (Feb 6, 2011)

My old OWB had an expansion bladder above the water jacket to take all expansion, and then return the water to the boiler to keep it full all the time -- no free air space in the water jacket. A bladder type "head tank" for a Garn likely would be problematical due to the large volume of water, but it sure worked on the OWB, which I had in service for well  over 10 years before selling it and switching to the Tarm with pressurized storage.


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## Rick Stanley (Feb 6, 2011)

PART 5

Then came the clean-up. All that crap that was pressure washed off ends up in the bottom along with the wash water to be cleaned out. Can't  just flush it out through a 3/4 boiler drain. It's gotta be sucked out. I used a shop vac to suck out the water, then used a sump pump to suck water from shop vac out of the building, then went back in with the vac to get the crud.


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## bigburner (Feb 6, 2011)

When I did mine, there is no drain at the very bottom + it's 15ft down the manway. I have a high head submersible pump that will handle the draft. pumped it out and just keep adding more water to dilute the dirty water. Mike sold me the medium strength cleaner, it did a pretty good job, but there was still rust. Ran it two years with out any water treatment.


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## Rick Stanley (Feb 6, 2011)

PART  6

More clean-up. Had to really spit and polish everything up before final filling and treating. Got it all filled and fired and back online on nov 16. New test was done including bio and all came back ok. Took the better part of a week to do it but it's been heating my house like a champ ever since. Hopefully it is cured, time will tell.


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## nt30410 (Feb 7, 2011)

Rick Stanley said:
			
		

> I have wanted to to share this since it happened last November. I want this NOT to be a Garn bashing session although I was VERY pi$$ed when it happened. So I have waited, cooled off and checked things out so as to figure out and share WHY it happened and what we did about it, so others (including Dectra, Garn dealers and PrecisionChem) could benefit and save themselves some hassle. After all, education and sharing is what the Boiler Room is all about.
> 
> So, I got the Garn online in Oct of 09. Followed all recommended start-up/flush/add chemicals/fill/water-testing (done in Jan/10) procedure. Water test (chemical analysis only, no bio test) results were ok so ran it all Winter, shut it down in the Spring, walked away and let it sit idle all summer. In the Fall, last November, in between getting wood put in and other getting-ready-for-winter farm stuff I drew a water sample from a purge valve near the heat-exchanger in my basement and got it sent of to PrecisionChem. There is a spot on the bottom of the water test form for remarks and comments. I had put in there what I could see through the manway and that was that the water was clear enough to see the flue tubes but had a brown color and that I could see brown foam floating at the water line against the tank wall. The results, including a bio test this time, came back A-OK!! But, because of the comments, they recommended draining, flushing and re-filling with new treatment.
> 
> When it was drained it looked bad so I snapped these pics and emailed them to Mike at Precision Chemical. He responded right away, set-up a time to call me, we discussed a plan of attack or "path to recovery"as he put it. He said the pics showed for sure that there was bacteria in the water and excessive steam production at the waterline had created an environment that caused corrosion.





My 1500 has been online about the same length of time. I haven't see any signs of corrosion yet..was kind of relying on Precision Chemical. My first boiler treatment came from Dectra and was a product made by Jiffy. I swapped out a pump when using it and found a white film around the inside of  the pump  which seemed like a permanent protective coating. With the switch to Precision I don't see that any more. Kind of makes me wonder.
Best of luck!


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## Sawyer (Feb 7, 2011)

I feel bad anyone has to go through what you did Rick. What are you doing differently to prevent this problem from reoccurring?

I felt by following the treatment schedule the Garn would be trouble free. I will be looking in my manhole tomorrow.


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## Rick Stanley (Feb 7, 2011)

PART 7

What the hell happened? Well, it's PrecisionChem's position that an overfiring situation occurred, creating excessive steam, in the presence of a biological. They are right. There was an overfiring, I posted pics of it on here last year. Search this forum with "eeeasy big fella". They also said that a piece of hen manure the size of a quarter or a teaspoonful of 5-10-10 garden fertilizer would be bad news for a Garn 2000 or any open system ESPECIALLY if it boiled. They said biological contaminates can get into open systems just from dust in the air. Mike said he hates to use the word "hospital" in trying to emphasize required sanitation for open systems but it can be almost that critical. 
     So, since no other Garn owners have experienced this I guess it was just a fluke. But since it did happen I just wanted to point out what I did wrong and what to watch out for: Don't over-fired, look in manway often to check water level and keep full as possible using filtered water and take sample from manway not piping if you see any discoloration and do a test. 
    Mike and the folks at PrecisionChem were very helpful and accessible all the way. Phone calls, emails, listening to me holler and bit-ch, you name it, they're great.  

Chris Holley is my Garn dealer and he is a good guy too. Very accessible, I always get a phone call every time I email him. He felt bad because he had been telling guys that after you overfire your garn a few times you'll get the hang of it. Didn't think it was a big deal.  He also felt confident that the testing program would prevent any corrosion issues from getting out of control. I emailed him all my pics and he forwarded them to Martin Lunde. I told Chris that Dectra ought to at least help me out with the cost of the water treatment chemicals and he said that was unlikely to happen and offered to contribute something out of his pocket. I declined. He and Martin and Mike were all in the loop and when Martin heard that it was Mike's position that overfiring was the issue, he simply said that it says in the manual to not operate above 190. I guess it probably does, somewhere.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Feb 7, 2011)

I know a person gets concerned with the large investment. If the unthinkable happened & it rusted through you just weld in a rolled section of metal. Anybody with halfway good welding skills can do this on a non pressure vessel & if it doesn't look as pretty as a new boiler so what? these get covered up/insulated anyways. Thats one of the great points of the Garn, very easily repairable, Randy


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## jebatty (Feb 7, 2011)

So much for customer service from Lunde and Dektra. Chris is not the agent where I live, but to be very candid, when I did have an issue with a Garn operated by a local educational institution, it was Chris, not the local agent, Lunde or Dektra (all located in my back yard), who was the one who was helpful. Glad everything is OK now.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Feb 7, 2011)

Rick Stanley said:
			
		

> PART 7
> 
> What the hell happened? Well, it's PrecisionChem's position that an overfiring situation occurred, creating excessive steam, in the presence of a biological. They are right. There was an overfiring, I posted pics of it on here last year. Search this forum with "eeeasy big fella". They also said that a piece of hen manure the size of a quarter or a teaspoonful of 5-10-10 garden fertilizer would be bad news for a Garn 2000 or any open system ESPECIALLY if it boiled. They said biological contaminates can get into open systems just from dust in the air. Mike said he hates to use the word "hospital" in trying to emphasize required sanitation for open systems but it can be almost that critical.
> So, since no other Garn owners have experienced this I guess it was just a fluke. But since it did happen I just wanted to point out what I did wrong and what to watch out for: Don't over-fired, look in manway often to check water level and keep full as possible using filtered water and take sample from manway not piping if you see any discoloration and do a test.
> ...


 Looks like we've learned something about Garn's warrantee. If you didn't follow initial procedures I could understand the "you're on your own approach". It sounds to me like Garn needs some chemicals that will better protect this expensive boiler, Randy


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## Sawyer (Feb 7, 2011)

Rick Stanley said:
			
		

> PART 7
> He and Martin and Mike were all in the loop and when Martin heard that it was Mike's position that overfiring was the issue, he simply said that it says in the manual to not operate above 190. I guess it probably does, somewhere.



Now I have to re-read the manuals.


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## roaring fire (Feb 7, 2011)

:bug: Where's Heaterman???
He usually eats Garns for supper.
Just surprised he hasn't chimed in on this Garn blooper


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## Rick Stanley (Feb 7, 2011)

roaring fire said:
			
		

> :bug: Where's Heaterman???
> He usually eats Garns for supper.
> Just surprised he hasn't chimed in on this Garn blooper



He's probably rootin' for them Packers :lol:


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## sdrobertson (Feb 7, 2011)

Rick Stanley said:
			
		

> roaring fire said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Please say it isn't so......he does live in Michigan!  Seriously, excellent and entertaining game.


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## pybyr (Feb 7, 2011)

Curious how high temperatures create or exacerbate bacterial issues- usually higher temperatures are less hospitable for most microbes.


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## brad068 (Feb 7, 2011)

pybyr said:
			
		

> Curious how high temperatures create or exacerbate bacterial issues- usually higher temperatures are less hospitable for most microbes.



I'm with pb on this one. What is the one way to purify water: boil of At least 15 min. The problem I see is that your water is to low. That is that much more area in that tank that can and is occupied by air, period. Keep it full that is more btus in storage too.

Chech you pH. That along with steam should of neutralized any organic growth chicken chit or not. 

The bottom of the tanks are coated because that was the one area of failure they had. When a steel tanks rust where do you suppose all the sediment ends up? Thats right, at the bottom and the corrosion starts and pin holes form under all the sediment. But with to much coating the exposed steel will get 10 times the corrosive attack then the whole tank.

Mine is a SS tank so shell corrosion is minimal but the flues are pitting. My opinion it is just about right now to stop the corrosion process.

I will be adding chemicals to stabilize the water this summer.


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## Willman (Feb 7, 2011)

> The bottom of the tanks are coated



I would coat the entire tank if possible. Considering the price on these units they should be fully coated. Water quality prolly should be checked prior to filling to see if there is any biological issues that need addressing. Might be a good idea to pre boil the water that is used to fill the tank by running it through a steam cleaner. The need to keep a hospital grade clean regime also should be mentioned in the manual. Might be I don't know.

Looks like another plus to be assigned to closed pressurized systems.

Will


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## RowCropRenegade (Feb 7, 2011)

I about had a heart attack when I saw this thread 20 mins ago.  I been sitting here awestruck for at least that long.  Good job Rick in finding and correcting the issue.  That biological corrosion scares the hell out of me.  I saw in the manual not to operate over 190.  But if that was the case, I'd never get away from the green beastie for more than 4-6 hours max.  I need 10 hours most days.  

Hope that everything is ok.  Worried about mine now.....


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## heaterman (Feb 7, 2011)

PACKERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRSSSSS!!

Hah. Where's Heaterman he says.  It's Super bowl Sunday people and we had about 30 or so assorted inlaws, outlaws, kids, grandkids, nephews, nieces and other assorted stragglers here eating us out of house and home.  Seriously, they brought some really good eats along with them.

As to the topic at hand.........Bacterial corrosion is a real knotty problem. I think that there's another thread on here recently that deals with it too if I'm not mistaken. 
As Mike at Precision Chem said, it can get going via a very small "input" of the wrong kind of stuff. Take that as a fact. It happens and can be introduced into the system from such a variety of sources that it would be hard to pinpoint exactly what got it going. That is the frustrating part about it.  It's about impossible to tell where it came from according to the stuff i have read on it. It could easily be present in the well water and you'll never know it until something gives out. It's not a bacteria that is tested for that I know of when a new well is drilled because it's not a strain like Listeria or E-Coli that is associated with health problems. 

Open systems are more likely to "contract the disease" but it can occur in closed systems as well. Nothing that holds water in a captive or semi captive state is immune. 
The corrosion is caused by a bacteria that is unfazed by heat and literally feeds on ferrous metal. Once you have it about the only thing you can do to get rid of it is what Rick went through. The fortunate thing for him is that with a Garn you can actually get inside, with good rain gear, and do it. In about any other wood burner you are pretty much screwed due to access on the water side of things. We had to do the same thing with both of the 2000's belonging to my "favorite farmer". It is not a job I would wish on anyone.

Boiling will accelerate the issue from what I understand and maybe that's what got Rick's problem going. As I said before, it could come in right from the well and that's another very good reason to have a water company deliver purified water to your site to use for filling what ever unit you have. I would strongly encourage everyone regardless of what brand or type of boiler you have to regularly have your water tested by a good lab. Someone who is in the business of water testing, not just some guy with a Hach chemical test kit. 

As for warranty, I doubt that any manufacturer would consider this a "defect" or a problem with their unit because it's something that is caused by an external influence. A Garn is about as robust a piece of equipment as I have seen but even they aren't bulletproof.

Probably the worst case I ever saw was in a closed system that was heated by a top of the line Viessmann condensing boiler. It was a very large residential closed system and the boiler itself was stainless so it wasn't attacked. The steel piping and pumps sure took it on the chin though. It was pretty obvious where the contamination came from on that one. For whatever reason, the original installer elected to fill the entire system with water from the lake in the guys front yard.  Go figure........

PS: Two additional things.
1. Coating the tank is not foolproof. All it takes is one very very small pinhole in the coating and you are in trouble.
2. That's probably the worst halftime show I've ever seen and I thought most of the ads stunk this year too. 

and a third.........whoever that was singing the national anthem should have stayed at home. Messed up the words and over sang the song badly. It doesn't have to be embellished. It stands by itself as is. Disgraceful.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Feb 7, 2011)

heaterman said:
			
		

> PACKERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRSSSSS!!
> 
> Hah. Where's Heaterman he says.  It's Super bowl Sunday people and we had about 30 or so assorted inlaws, outlaws, kids, grandkids, nephews, nieces and other assorted stragglers here eating us out of house and home.  Seriously, they brought some really good eats along with them.
> 
> ...


 Aguilera, & yes, The Pack is Back!


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## PassionForFire&Water (Feb 7, 2011)

I don't know much how these Garns are recommended to be installed, but a 10' or 20' high standpipe with open expansion tank and boiler feed system (British open system) should at least keep the boiler filled completely to the top (manhole) and keep air space above the water level to a minimum or non existing.


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## jebatty (Feb 7, 2011)

> *Heaterman:* As for warranty, I doubt that any manufacturer would consider this a â€œdefectâ€ or a problem with their unit because itâ€™s something that is caused by an external influence. A Garn is about as robust a piece of equipment as I have seen but even they arenâ€™t bulletproof.



A person might argue this technicality, but it seems to me that, since an open system is more likely to suffer from the biological attack, especially from overheating, than a closed system, that the mfr should strongly highlight the risk and consequent damage, and not simply say don't heat to higher than 190F. Also, it seems to me 1) that it is a critical design defect for a supplier like Garn to provide a boiler that does not have overheat protection to prevent temperatures higher than 190F, given the known risk; 2) that the design defect is a hidden defect not likely realized or to become known by a homeowner user before suffering the harm; 3) that failure to highlight the problem is intentional in that highlighting the problem would discourage sales and negatively impact profits; 4) that the Garn is sold directly to unsophisticated consumers who are unlikely to appreciate the severity of the problem and risk unless strongly warned of the risk; and 5) that Garn should he held responsible for its intentional and/or negligent acts.

It also seems to me, given the fair number of Garn users on this site who have "boasted" (not to disparage the users, because the boasting is out of pride in their belief that they have a superior product) that they regularly run their Garn's in excess of 190 and into the low 200's, that Garn's failure to post notice on this site of the risk of this behavior to the integrity of the Garn boiler is further demonstration of Garn's intentional hiding of a serious risk.


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## TheSteelFabricator (Feb 7, 2011)

What gets me is a hen can crap in your boiler or a teaspoon of 5-10-10 fertilizer at a cost of less than .02 cents can take out your boiler ,but you have to spend hundreds of dollars in boiler chemicals to rectify the problem. Kinda makes you wonder.


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## jebatty (Feb 7, 2011)

Garn users may want to refer to this thread Gasser Burns as a method to insure that they do not overheat their Garn's. Weighing wood may be a bit cumbersome, but my experience shows it is quite precise in arriving at a target end temperature. Note the Chart which reduced the method to no-brainer simplicity. For example, yesterday my storage was at 110F, the target was 185F (delta-T=75), and amount of wood needed based on the chart (80% eff) was 129 lbs. I weighed out this quantity, proceeded with the burn, end of storage temp was 185F.


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## jebatty (Feb 7, 2011)

Copper is known to have biocidal properties. Is there evidence that use of copper plumbing, rather than steel or pex, with a steel boiler reduces the biological attack issue highlighted in this thread?


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## heaterman (Feb 7, 2011)

A steam tank or any other overhead refill system will not work guys. If it's set up to gravity feed it will just do so until all the water in it runs out of the overflow pipe in the Garn. You can't pressurize a Garn in any way. 

I've had my grubby paws on a lot of Garns, including currently resurrecting one made in 1981-82 as we speak. They are what they are. A very simple and solid design that transfers heat from wood to water better than about anything I've seen. They have their own operating characteristics just like any other boiler I've worked with. Incidents like Ricks are isolated to say the least. The only one I've seen in my area is one owned by my favorite farmer and it is regularly boiled, overfilled, fired wrong and everything else. On the other hand I know of a lot of them that are run up to 200*+ and have never experienced any issues at all. 
My personal recommendation to anyone with a boiler, open or closed system alike, is to regularly check your water conditions. There are a host of things that can happen to your system from nasty water and biologic contamination is only one of them.


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## deerhntr (Feb 7, 2011)

jebatty said:
			
		

> It also seems to me, given the fair number of Garn users on this site who have "boasted" (not to disparage the users, because the boasting is out of pride in their belief that they have a superior product) that they regularly run their Garn's in excess of 190 and into the low 200's, that Garn's failure to post notice on this site of the risk of this behavior to the integrity of the Garn boiler is further demonstration of Garn's intentional hiding of a serious risk.



Boy Jim,
For someone who goes out of there way to state "not to disparage the users", you are doing a pretty darn good job of bashing users, manufacture, and all involved. And you are doing it here on this forum, where for the most part everyone goes out of their way to be helpful, and "Non Bashing". I thought Rick didn't want this to degenerate into a bashing thread. But alas........ You must really have been mistreated by GARN/Dectra when you were a child. I for one, am not into boasting, or posting my degree day efficient use of wood btus. I am simply glad to have an alternative source to heating my home over the traditional check to the oil minister. It just so happens, my alternative is a GARN. Could have been a TARM, EKO, ATMOS, or you name it. Most all appliances have their short falls. Last I checked, I have yet to find perfection. Let us all know when you find it! I'm sure you will.....


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## jebatty (Feb 7, 2011)

Read it as you will. I also have complimented Garn representative Chris, and I have offered possible solutions to prevent overheating and reduce the chance of biological attack.


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## steam man (Feb 7, 2011)

jebatty said:
			
		

> Copper is known to have biocidal properties. Is there evidence that use of copper plumbing, rather than steel or pex, with a steel boiler reduces the biological attack issue highlighted in this thread?



Interesting observation. In the marine world we use copper-nickel piping/heat exchangers to the nth degree to basically ward off salt water corrorsion. Marine growth abounds in these systems so we typically use some kind of "poison water" sytem. The one I use now is basically a salt generator much like a pool would use but on a much bigger scale. Obviously you can't use that in any ferrous metal system. Previously I had experience with a copper/aluminum anode/cathode setup where the metals would slowly leach into the water to keep it free of marine organisms. Curiostity made me research this issue and I found this link: 
http://resources.schoolscience.co.uk/cda/11-14/biology/copch31pg2.html 

Quote:  

  Copper is used for water pipes and central heating systems (tanks and pipes). This is because it doesn't corrode and its ductility makes it easy to shape and install. It also protects against the growth of unwanted, pathogenic bacteria such as legionella, which thrive in stagnant water storage units. 

I would emphasize "stagnant".

This poses the question that with the advancing use of pex (or lack of copper pipe) will bacteria become more prevalent in heating systems? I wouldn't think the copper would leach out enough to make much difference though a high volume system with minimal copper pipe would seem to be more likely to have bacteria problems.

On the lighter side Rick, don't feel so bad. I watched a Star Next Generation episode the other day and they picked up a space bacteria that was eating through their hull. They had to use a neutrino beam to neutralize it. I'm guessing that's not an option.


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## jebatty (Feb 7, 2011)

Local hospitals are installing copper fixtures of some sort in hospital rooms to aid in fighting micro-organisms, and the "leaching" would be air-borne copper molecules or ions. Copper kettles have been used for a very long time and their sanitation effect through killing bacteria is well known. Might not hot water moving/eroding through copper pipes have the same result?


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## brad068 (Feb 7, 2011)

Check pH... bacteria hates high pH, thrives in acidic conditions anoxic, anaerobic, or aerobic. Keep pH up!

 What I see with overfiring is that if it happens often you willl keep losing water due to steam/ condensation out the overfill tube and possibly the cover.

 I have a sight glass on mine and keep the water in it.

 Kinda like an old steel gas tank on ope.  If you have ever looked inside a steel gas tank left to set half full with this great ethanol blend fuel,  you will see a rust line develop right at/ above the liquid.  When you keep them full during storage this doesn't happen.


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## brad068 (Feb 7, 2011)

jebatty said:
			
		

> Local hospitals are installing copper fixtures of some sort in hospital rooms to aid in fighting micro-organisms, and the "leaching" would be air-borne copper molecules or ions. Copper kettles have been used for a very long time and their sanitation effect through killing bacteria is well known. Might not hot water moving/eroding through copper pipes have the same result?



Yes, a relative of mine is on the forfront of this application. They are copper coating door handles, railings, etc. Anything that humans touch.

They where highlighted on a history channel program a few years ago.


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## jebatty (Feb 7, 2011)

No comment on the validity or effectiveness of this method of using copper ions to control biological corrosion in hot water boilers, so FWIW: Copper - Biological Control. 

A very quick scan of some material indicated that some biocides might be detrimental to plastic piping. For those interested, one *oogle search is "copper biocide boiler," and I am sure there are other keywords that would produce results of interest. Copper in marine systems is a different animal from copper in fresh water systems.


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## Corey (Feb 7, 2011)

Interesting thread.  I don't deal with boilers specifically, but do some work with metal corrosion.  It strikes me as strange they only required one water sample and was OK to just walk away from in the spring?

As others have posted, you need high pH and low oxygen to keep the system happy and corrosion free.  But these factors are always in a state of change.  If you happen to have microbes in the system, their growth and byproducts can change the pH/O2 levels.   If the initial fill/treatment didn't kill the colony 100% it will be back.  Also, having a large exposed water surface area can allow CO2 / O2 absorption from the air - further lowering pH and raising O2. The fill water source will also have some impact.  Well or spring water may tend to have more biological content than treated/city water - don't know if that was a factor or not.  I also don't know what all factors were examined in the water test, but iron, sulfur, nitrogen, etc in the water are good bacteria food, so if you had notable levels, that could go to creating good breeding soup as well.

Either way, hope you have it resolved.  I'd say keep up with the full spectrum of testing at least until things seem to stabilize.  The big key with water treatment - if you are not ahead of the curve in keeping things corrosion free, you are behind it.


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## steam man (Feb 7, 2011)

jebatty said:
			
		

> No comment on the validity or effectiveness of this method of using copper ions to control biological corrosion in hot water boilers, so FWIW: Copper - Biological Control.
> 
> A very quick scan of some material indicated that some biocides might be detrimental to plastic piping. For those interested, one *oogle search is "copper biocide boiler," and I am sure there are other keywords that would produce results of interest. Copper in marine systems is a different animal from copper in fresh water systems.



I wouldn't say copper in marine systems is all that different since the great lakes fresh water and copper systems are used to prevent biological growth there also. Typical uses are copper based hull coatings, biocides for ballast tanks, etc. The ion generator you linked to is basically the same thing I used for years albeit on the salt water side. Incidentily, I had to test boiler chemistry on one ship I was on for copper/nickel concentrations on a weekly basis. They had a problem previously where too much copper leached into the boiler water from the copper based pipe systems (bad water chemistry) and it ended up plating the boiler tubes with copper. They ended having to re-tube the boilers. Note that the system you linked to controls the copper/silver ions to a very low 3ppm.

Mike


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## tom in maine (Feb 7, 2011)

We have used steel heat exchangers and cast iron pumps in open tank systems. The corrosion inhibitor we had used worked well. 
We treating piping, so there was no air space.
The air/water interface has always concerned me when it comes to corrosion, treated water or not.

I guess the good news is that everyone knows more about it now and will be a little more stringent on their water testing.


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## Como (Feb 7, 2011)

So to summarise:

It can happen to anyone.

It is unusual

Closed or open systems are both at risk. (There was mention of British semi open systems, I know it can happen in those)

Boiler make, type etc has a influence on the consequences but not whether it will happen, likewise operation style may make things worse.

Water chemistry is key.


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## Flathill (Feb 7, 2011)

I didn't know that you could enter the water side of a Garn Boiler. Just a safety concern. The inside of a boiler, water side or gas side is most likely a confined space which requires taking serious safety related procedures before entry and during entry in this space. Lack of oxygen is just one concern. Proper forced ventilation is necessary. Also a plan and the required equipment needed to quickly get out of the space should be addressed.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Feb 7, 2011)

deerhntr said:
			
		

> jebatty said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 It appears Garn never did spell out the danger of heating over 190 & that is why there are concerned owners on the site now. Garn was either ignorant of this fact or hiding it, your choice, Randy


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## TCaldwell (Feb 7, 2011)

who would have thought that the silly notion of heating our houses with wood , could be this involved, practically making engineers of us all. While some of the challenges you expect, this is not one that gets much attention untill something like this happens. I applaud rick for being forthright and involving us all in something that we should know more about, unpressureized or pressureized corrosion. As my garn sits in my garage empty this winter, waiting for better weather to start a new garn barn, you can be sure I will not skimp on this concern, probably more so now.  In jim's defense this is a very serious concern that dectra has allowed themselves a disconnect due to overfiring, I would be safe to say we all have done it and most not realizing what the results could be. Having said this i would not give mine up, only wishing the r/d money spent on a shiny door went to more direct involvement for something this important.  you would think there is a better way to handle this corrosion!


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## Rick Stanley (Feb 7, 2011)

cozy heat said:
			
		

> Interesting thread.  I don't deal with boilers specifically, but do some work with metal corrosion.  It strikes me as strange they only required one water sample and was OK to just walk away from in the spring?
> 
> As others have posted, you need high pH and low oxygen to keep the system happy and corrosion free.  But these factors are always in a state of change.  If you happen to have microbes in the system, their growth and byproducts can change the pH/O2 levels.   If the initial fill/treatment didn't kill the colony 100% it will be back.  Also, having a large exposed water surface area can allow CO2 / O2 absorption from the air - further lowering pH and raising O2. The fill water source will also have some impact.  Well or spring water may tend to have more biological content than treated/city water - don't know if that was a factor or not.  I also don't know what all factors were examined in the water test, but iron, sulfur, nitrogen, etc in the water are good bacteria food, so if you had notable levels, that could go to creating good breeding soup as well.
> 
> Either way, hope you have it resolved.  I'd say keep up with the full spectrum of testing at least until things seem to stabilize.  The big key with water treatment - if you are not ahead of the curve in keeping things corrosion free, you are behind it.



That's good stuff right there. I would love it if you guys that are experienced in the biology and chemistry of this stuff would keep talking. Maybe you can make me understand it better. HA, good luck with THAT!!
   Here's the thing- I put in the standard start-up additives that came with the boiler, followed instructions to the letter.  However, I did NOT take a test sample after two weeks like they recommend, I did it after 4 months of burning and I did NOT take the sample from the manway as they recommend, I took it  from the piping in the basement 170 ft away. They tested that sample for -total hardness/total dissolved solids-conductivity/ organo phosphonate digest-drop/ PH/ iron........no test for BIO. All came back ok.
   Two weeks later I overfired it and about a month after that I shut it down. It sat there all spring and summer and I never lifted the lid. So, 6 months later I send in another sample taken from the piping and looked inside the manway and gave a brief written description of what I saw in the "comment" area of the test paper that otherwise just has name and date,etc on it. The results came back all OK. Same test as before except this time there was a BIO test and IT WAS OK!?!?!! However, they recommended drain + refill with new treatment OR filtration with 5 micron filter based on my comments. So I drained it and sent them the pics and that's when the cleaning started.
     When I talked with Mike he said that the bacteria was boiled away and that's why the test showed negative. But he had said before, in the same conversation, that boiling made steam and that steam and bacteria made the corrosion. So, does overfiring make bacteria eat my boiler or does it kill them?
     Mike's a genius, so is Martin and I'm not being critical of any of those guys with any of this.  But maybe somebody here can dumb down this bacterialogicalness to a  Maine farm boys' level


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## Frozen Canuck (Feb 7, 2011)

Excellent thread, sure gets one thinking about the water in the system, something I have to admit a large portion of ignorance on. However it does shed some light on something I have been wondering about; this fall when I was shopping for a nat gas mod/con boiler for the house I met a (new to me) installer of same. He gave me a quote etc, however he was the only one to insist upon using distilled water for the system fill as well as tank or bladder system filled with distilled water for system refill. On these two issues he would not budge. His explanation was that he wanted a stable reference point to begin from when doing system chemical balancing as well as a known chemical composition on the system refill side that could easily be balanced on the refill side given a known volume. I "thought" OK makes sense but to be honest seemed like a lot of over kill & quite frankly have wondered why so much effort upfront was needed ever since we had our discussion. After reading this thread however I am thinking he is much further ahead at preventing any water side issues before they can occur & damage what would be a pricey boiler in my case as well. A big thanks to Rick for detailing this for us to digest & I can sure understand & empathize as in my case (on a farm) I really dont think I could eliminate all the sources of contamination. There are just far too many of them & they are everywhere on a farm, probably the same for most of you on an acreage, even if you are in control of your acres I doubt you are in control of what drifts onto your property from the neighbors place. Wondering if the poison water that was mentioned in this thread may be the best way to go for large volume situations. That would be approx 95% of wood burning boilers esp. everyone using storage. I would also benefit if this were to turn into a water chemistry/biology/physics discussion. However I like Rick will need it to be at a "farm boy" level. I try to keep up, I really do it is just that sometimes...well you (science majors) make my head spin. No offense, hey maybe I have a water side issue in my brain "causing corrosion" of said brain, that would explain why I feel rusty when it comes to the science of these issues.


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## heaterman (Feb 7, 2011)

Singed Eyebrows said:
			
		

> deerhntr said:
> 
> 
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Where is this 190* stuff coming from? That is not a magic do not exceed number. Various things happen at various temperatures depending on what exactly is in the water.
There's a lot of science involved in this but there are also a lot of "it depends" and "if/then" circumstances. You could have a certain "cocktail" in your water that becomes active based on practically any water temperature a person could choose. In the case of bacteria for example, there are some that are _relatively inert so to speak until they are killed_ by high temperature (usually boiling) and there are _some that cause no problem at all once they are dead_. Just depends on what you have in combination with the chemistry of the water itself.

I see a lot of people here making judgments and blanket statements about things that are so variable they have to be dealt with on a case by case basis. 
Those kind of comments do little if anything to further everyone's knowledge on this topic. So rather than casting stones at Rick or Garn or Mike from Precision chem let's see what we can collectively learn here. 

I called Mike to get his take on Rick's problem right from the horses mouth so to speak. He told me that as he recalled the situation (3-4 months ago) he was not 100% sure it was bacteria in the first place. He recommended that the situation be treated as such in regards to the method of dealing with the corrosion to "cover all the bases". He also told me that testing to find out exactly what was in the water in order to obtain some kind of an idea exactly what was in there would involve a lengthy period of time and thousands of $$ worth of tests. 

My best advice is to physically take a look at your water through the lid if you have a Garn as well as regular sampling/testing. Or in the case of a boiler you can't actually see inside of, fill a glass jar with some water directly from your boiler (not from the piping) and let it stand for a day to see what settles out. Then along with that get it tested by a reputable lab for at least the basic properties that are known to have caustic effects on your equipment.

In regards to copper vs steel piping, there are a host of issues introduced by mixing noble and ferrous metals together. Dielectric unions can solve some of them but sometimes create more unintended consequences than they alleviate. Personally, I like steel because you have a lot of "anode" available other than the boiler itself. If you have a steel or iron boiler connected to all copper piping you are guaranteeing that anything "happening" in the system  will absolutely happen in the boiler. 

Thoughts?


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## bpirger (Feb 7, 2011)

As a new 1500 owner, I'm sitting here feeling a bit queezy as well.  Like you say Rick, how could the bio test come back negative?  And yet the boilng killed them off?  Hmmmm.

One question I have.....at what temp does the Garn "overfire" light come on?  Or with the new controller, at what point does the warning light come on?  Does it at all?  I'm still using my old timer.....  But it seems to me, if this is such an issue, should the warnign come on at 185?  Hmmm....

I don't recall the manual saying not to fire over 190....though I believe it does (and will be reading).  But that sure isn't something I walked away with after reading...a few times.  Major concerns with bio problems.  YES.  Major concern with corrison in general, and Dectra's total non-responsibility for corrosion....YES.  And their adamant concern with bio corrosion....YES.  But no where did I ever get the connection between firing over 190 and bio problem excaberation.  Now I'm more curious than ever to go and read....and to pop the mancover and take a very detailed look.

I wish Garn had their website still around....I guess we will have to get an explicit answer from Garn regarding their recommendation on maximum fire temperature.  

Rick, I'm truly sorry for your pain....and I'm hoping these problems are in the past.


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## heaterman (Feb 7, 2011)

steam man said:
			
		

> jebatty said:
> 
> 
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Legionella bacteria loves water temp in the 90-130* range and will thrive there. The issues that are prevalent with that particular bacteria are running your water heater below 140* and standing or stagnant water such as found in radiant floor systems sold by some less than reputable companies who say it's OK to get your domestic water out of heating system plumbing. A good friend got legionella from the water in his shower (water heater set at the government recommended 120*) and it almost killed him.  Legionella does not attack system metals in any way that I am aware of but.........I did NOT sleep in a Holiday Inn last night............just sayin.


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## brad068 (Feb 7, 2011)

Amen H-man, Amen.


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## Kemer (Feb 7, 2011)

There is no over-fire light on the new controller


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## Singed Eyebrows (Feb 7, 2011)

heaterman said:
			
		

> Singed Eyebrows said:
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 I got the 190 from the thread & thought it was accurate. There seemed to be an issue with the steaming/overfiring, again from the thread. You are going a long ways towards clearing this up Heaterman, Randy


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## brad068 (Feb 7, 2011)

At work we produce a class A dry sludge out of a municipal sewage plant. We heat the sludge to at least 158*F for at least .5 hrs. and mix in high cal lime. The heat destroys all bacteria and the lime will neutralize any that made it through and any added during storage ( bird crap, blown in rainwater/snow, etc.), up to six months.

The pH is so high the flys don't even like it or hang around. Flies and bacteria go hand in hand.


Rick, 

Was there any chance of air or fices contamination? Do you live on a farm? Is your cover on good? nothing could of got in there during the off season?

Wonder if a mouse would climb up the over flow tube during off season?


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## nt30410 (Feb 7, 2011)

I don't recall seeing in my manual (5 years ago) that the boiler should not be fired over 190F...however I vaguely recall a reference made to not add wood if the water temperature was 180F or more. Does this sound right?


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## jebatty (Feb 8, 2011)

I don't have a Garn manual, and Rick says a number of posts above: 





> He [Chris] and Martin and Mike were all in the loop and when Martin heard that it was Mikeâ€™s position that overfiring was the issue, he simply said that it says in the manual to not operate above 190. I guess it probably does, somewhere.


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## Willman (Feb 8, 2011)

So its all about the water quality. Seems logical.The Achilles heel of water heating. What would a testing company look for in the way of contaminants? Most prolly fill their systems with well water. Wonder if city water is better?

Distilled water is prolly the way to go. Knowing the possible metal degradation due to poor quality water would be enough to try to locate a supplier of distilled. Barring that what other purification methods would be acceptable? Reverse osmosis maybe? I am still wondering about full coating of water tanks. Even if a small area started to be affected it would be easy to spot on a yearly visual inspection.

As was mentioned earlier the Garn seems to be easily serviced concerning metal replacement. A plus for this brand versus some others.

Will


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## Rick Stanley (Feb 8, 2011)

jebatty said:
			
		

> I don't have a Garn manual, and Rick says a number of posts above:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yup, that's what he said. Not to me directly, but to Chris. But that's the word I got from the manufacturer when I called my dealer.


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## steam man (Feb 8, 2011)

Rick Stanley said:
			
		

> jebatty said:
> 
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I would swear the problem looked to me like the boiler laying idle with an air space in it and chemistry probably off some would have been the cause. I am not familiar with open systems per say so can you tell me what happens at 190 deg to cause this problem?

Mike


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## Rick Stanley (Feb 8, 2011)

[ I called Mike to get his take on Rickâ€™s problem right from the horses mouth so to speak. He told me that as he recalled the situation (3-4 months ago) he was not 100% sure it was bacteria in the first place. He recommended that the situation be treated as such in regards to the method of dealing with the corrosion to â€œcover all the basesâ€. He also told me that testing to find out exactly what was in the water in order to obtain some kind of an idea exactly what was in there would involve a lengthy period of time and thousands of $$ worth of tests. ]

Yup, that makes sense. Remember, I was freakin' out at the time. I wanted answers and he gave me some. He was taking care of me and I didn't even know it. We had some heated back and forth, for which I have since apologized,  and I was about ready for a road trip to MN.  He calmed me down and assured me there was a "path to recovery". 

Also, Garni, now that you mention it, some of those heated exchanges, mostly me being heated and mike rolling his eyes, were about mice and manure and insects. Mike told of a commune type place somewhere that has a garn in an outbuilding. They are real hardcore minimalists apparently, because they saved their own feces in 5 gal pails over the winter and let it freeze up for use as compost in the summer. ha ha i ain't $hitin ya. When spring came they put all the buckets in the garn barn to thaw them. Somehow it made a fine dust all over everything, BINGO, corrosion in the garn. Yes, this is a farm. Been a poultry farm for 100 years. Manure and dust everywhere. Also, I did the install myself and it took nearly a year. So there was time for something to crawl in a pipe out there or something. Whatever it is/was it's probably cured. We'll find out when I shut down in a few weeks (running low on wood).

Thanks to everyone for trying real hard NOT to make this a bashing thread. I knew it would be difficult, that's why I was reluctant to even post.


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## pybyr (Feb 8, 2011)

As I am thinking about all this, I am wondering- given the fact that the Garn design can't be filled to the brim-- due to the need for expansion area- and the fact that you then have a zone of hot incredibly moist air above the water, it'd be extraordinary if some corrosion of exposed steel did not occur.  

I think the questions need to be: "how much is normal?" and "when does it negatively affect function or longevity?"

Some of that may come down to metallurgy- some alloys can experience substantial surface corrosion but will be surprisingly resistant to rust-through.

I suppose if one wanted to get really pro-active about it, you could try to do a slow feed of some inert gas into the top of the Garn- to keep the "air space" as low on oxygen content as possible.  Not sure how you'd do that on a homeowner-affordable scale, though-- although, who knows, maybe someone here in the Boiler Room will come up with a way!


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## Hydronics (Feb 8, 2011)

Guys, if the 190* temp is critical, why not use an aquastat to kill the fan when the water hits 190* even if the unit still has wood left?


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## Willman (Feb 8, 2011)

> Thanks to everyone for trying real hard NOT to make this a bashing thread



Thanks Rick for bringing this to the forefront. Another plus on the Garn side is actually being able to look in and do a visual inspection. Without your observation a lot of people wouldn't have even gave water quality a second look. Now how would one do an inspection of a closed systems boiler to check on the integrity of the metal? Send a tiny camera thru the water tubes like the sewer and well bore cameras?
Will


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## Singed Eyebrows (Feb 8, 2011)

Hydronics said:
			
		

> Guys, if the 190* temp is critical, why not use an aquastat to kill the fan when the water hits 190* even if the unit still has wood left?


 That might turn a clean burning Garn into a "smoker". I hope that the water treatment gurus can come up with something bulletproof, Randy


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## heaterman (Feb 8, 2011)

Hydronics said:
			
		

> Guys, if the 190* temp is critical, why not use an aquastat to kill the fan when the water hits 190* even if the unit still has wood left?



That is totally contrary to the design and operating characteristics of a Garn. Once the wood load is going it never shuts down. No cycling = clean burn= very good efficiency=lower wood consumption.
People would start using it like any other boiler. By that I mean loading it full and just letting the aquastat cycle the air flow much like an OWB. Due to the nature and design of the heat exchanger tubes in a Garn, idling is something to be avoided at all cost.
My advice to people who are running a Garn is _simply to avoid firing the thing unless water temp is below 170*_. The top temp will finish around 190-200 unless a person has severely over loaded the unit.


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## Como (Feb 8, 2011)

and if your boiling point is 195F?


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## heaterman (Feb 8, 2011)

Como said:
			
		

> and if your boiling point is 195F?



Adjust accordingly.


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## bpirger (Feb 8, 2011)

Well, I have to agree with heaterman that there is no need for panic...we all just have to observe and keep an eye on things.  The Garn manual says 9% of units are affected by corrosion...and most of these have been bacteriological in nature. 

That said, I just read the Operation and Maintainence manual, Revision 8, Dated April 2010.  The only mention of firing temp I see is that wood should not be added over 185 as this may lead to overfiring...and overfiring to 205 routinely may cause excessive wood usage.  No where did I see any mention of 190.  Certainly it says bio corrosion is an issue to watch and bio corrosion can do very significant damage in just a couple of months.   " Bacteriological corrosion is highly unpredictable; however, once active it can corrode through a tank in a few months.  As indicated in the past, visual inspection, periodic testing and peridodic cleaning coupled with ongoing chemical treatment is one of the mostg effective programs for corrosion prevention."

EDIT:  The installation manual says to fire the unit to 190-200 degrees to get the water to expand and overflow through the overflow pipe...to assure the water level is correct.  Once this happens, presumbaly it will never happen again (unless water is added or fired to a higher temp).  No indication of a 190 limit at all.

Nothing relates firing temps to bio corrosion. 

I think the 190 must have been thrown out there, but it sure isn't in the manuals.  Certainly not related to critter creation....

So I guess we just observe.  Is there any downside to a biocide treatment (from Precision) EXCEPT the cost?  Mayve once a year, for the non heating summer say?  DO NOT EVER USE CHLORINE.

The manual does say:  Add the recommended biocide at the following times: whenever makeup water is added to the unit; a few days before the end of the heating season; and at the beginning and/or middle of the heating season.  Dusty or dirty locations require more frequent biocide additions to minimize sludge build-up and under deposit corrosion potential."  Presumably the recoomendation comes when there is a positive test for bacteria.

Why not as a prophylactic?


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## TCaldwell (Feb 8, 2011)

As the bottom of the tank is coated , for corrosion protection why can't the the balance or at least the top 1/4 also be with the same product?  It seems that the chemicals precision reccomends must be compatable with the coating that comes on the bottom already. With proper surface prep, more covered area, maybee less damaging potential.


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## jebatty (Feb 8, 2011)

Excellent information for Garn owners. Yours is the first post in this thread showing what is in the Garn manual. 



> *bpirger:*The Garn manual says 9% of units are affected by corrosionâ€¦and most of these have been bacteriological in nature.



Based on this information, nearly 1 out of 10 Garns experiences corrosion. Perhaps Garn owners could report on what they find or have found 1) if they have rigidly followed the inspection and treatment procedures and recommendations, or 2) if they have not followed those procedures rigidly, undertake an inspection at the end of this heating season and report, and then do what needs to be done. A Garn, or any other boiler, is far too big of an investment to suffer the risk of premature corrosive failure, especially because the 1 of 10 for Garns is a clear warning that the risk is not remote.

Although Dectra has little reason to consider my input, given Rick's experience and all the traffic on this thread and other Garn threads, it might make good business sense for Dectra to put out a notice to Garn owners reminding them of the need for inspection, proper water treatment, and corrective action if corrosion is discovered.

It would be good advice to all wood boiler owners to inspect their boilers. I also will do an inspection of my Tarm, to the extent possible. It has an access hatch on the top for insertion of a coil heat exchanger, so by removal of this hatch some limited inspection of the interior of the boiler should be possible. I don't recall, and a quick review this morning did not discover, anything in the Tarm manual regarding the testing of fill water or maintenance of any type of water condition, although the warranty does not cover damage from the effects of corrosive water supply. I haven't given much thought to the warranty because I did a self-install, and the warranty only covers installs by a qualified contractor whose principal occupation is sale or installation of plumbing and heating equipment, and the warranty requires service and inspection every two years by a qualified service person. I would assume that my self-install and no inspection by anyone other than myself might cause some resistance on the part of Tarm to any warranty claim. This is my 4th heating season of a 20 year warranty period on the boiler body, so I've survived 20% of warranty longevity already. And this is getting pretty close to "payback" from money saved by not having to buy electric heat or a propane boiler and fuel, although I would not like to buy another boiler.

I did discover in the manual a statement to use wood with MC of 15% or less "for best operation." 20% has been my assumption, although my wood is 2 or more years dry, covered from rain/snow but open to the air, and every time I put my Wagner lumber moisture meter on a re-split piece I read MC usually under 10% and always less than 20% (probably less than 15% but less than 20% is what I've looked for).

And for all boiler users, maybe a careful re-read of the manual is in order. Surprises might be the result.


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## TCaldwell (Feb 8, 2011)

If you look on garn tech specs, under btus stored they use the range of 120-200degf, should this be reviewed if there reccomendation does not exceed 190degf.


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## jebatty (Feb 8, 2011)

This thread is now a hit on Page 2 of a *oogle search on "bacteriological corrosion." The world is now a party to this discussion.

A short description of bacteriological corrosion and the environments in which this can occur:
Bacteriological Corrosion


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## Fred61 (Feb 8, 2011)

Although research on this should be left to the experts and I'm not sure if anyone has identified the bacteria that is the culprit in this reaction, I just wanted to note that over the years I have had some luck using copper sulphate for treating water. Back at my former place, I used to treat my pond with it to reduce the microscopic algae and thus clear the water. It was my understanding that it also was toxic to some bacteria. By reducing the algae it resulted in lowering the oxygen level in the water so if I had fish which I had from time to time, I had to be careful on the dosage. 
I also used a solution of copper sulphate to treat the black growth that was growing on my roof shingles.
Back then my brother had a photo lab. Not one of those compact ones you see at Wal-Mart but one that took hundreds of feet of floor space and used gallons of hot water. He was having bacteria growth in the unit and was affecting the photo quality by appearing as spots on the finished product. By treating the incoming water with just a few crystals of copper sulphate the problem was solved. What reminded me of this was an entry in an above post that copper plumbing had some biocidal characteristics.


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## Hydronics (Feb 8, 2011)

heaterman said:
			
		

> Hydronics said:
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I thought I might get that response.  I wasn't suggesting that people operate that way regularly, just a safeguard if you've had bacterial corrosion. 
I understand that it's not ideal to operate this way but unless you've severely overloaded the firebox you should be down to coal at this point in the burn and have burned off most of the gases that would produce creosote which could potentially coat the exchangers. If waiting until 170 or less to fire is the solution, even better.


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## Der Fuirmeister (Feb 8, 2011)

Rick Stanley said:
			
		

> I have wanted to to share this since it happened last November. I want this NOT to be a Garn bashing session although I was VERY pi$$ed when it happened. So I have waited, cooled off and checked things out so as to figure out and share WHY it happened and what we did about it, so others (including Dectra, Garn dealers and PrecisionChem) could benefit and save themselves some hassle. After all, education and sharing is what the Boiler Room is all about.
> 
> So, I got the Garn online in Oct of 09. Followed all recommended start-up/flush/add chemicals/fill/water-testing (done in Jan/10) procedure. Water test (chemical analysis only, no bio test) results were ok so ran it all Winter, shut it down in the Spring, walked away and let it sit idle all summer. In the Fall, last November, in between getting wood put in and other getting-ready-for-winter farm stuff I drew a water sample from a purge valve near the heat-exchanger in my basement and got it sent of to PrecisionChem. There is a spot on the bottom of the water test form for remarks and comments. I had put in there what I could see through the manway and that was that the water was clear enough to see the flue tubes but had a brown color and that I could see brown foam floating at the water line against the tank wall. The results, including a bio test this time, came back A-OK!! But, because of the comments, they recommended draining, flushing and re-filling with new treatment.
> 
> When it was drained it looked bad so I snapped these pics and emailed them to Mike at PrecisionChem. He responded right away, set-up a time to call me, we discussed a plan of attack or "path to recovery"as he put it. He said the pics showed for sure that there was bacteria in the water and excessive steam production at the waterline had created an environment that caused corrosion.



Had a very similar experience with my Garn (put into operation 12/09) that I discovered in October of 2010 while preparing to run for the year.  Mike helped a lot.  Did a clean up and treatment similar to yours (although probably not as good). Mike had me run through the same procedure. I decided to top off the water at the end of this season to eliminate any air and provide all steel in contact with treated water.  Will be testing again at that time.

As for the treatment provided by Garn, it is only a pretreatment, not final treatment, and certainly not add and forget.  No where does it say this in the Garn manual.  I added and forgot about it.  So far this season my water is clear, but after reading this I'm going to take another look and do a mid winter test.  

I spent days on clean up and another $150 on treatment chemicals.  One last bit of advice....the tank is confined space.  Ventilate with a power (fan) type ventilator and use a O2 meter while inside.   People die every year going into what they think is a safe area because they've been in there before.

edit.... I have a white pex tubing sight glass on mine at the tap port and monitor the water.  Helps alert me to potential problems.  Low water will cause boiling to occur on the tubes even when below 200 on the gauge.  I used to see steam out of my overflow tube.  Not this year.  I make my last fire around 150-160.  Another advantage of running lower temps is higher efficiency.

I completely agree about Mike and company.....very helpful.


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## heaterman (Feb 8, 2011)

Maybe I can clarify the over firing issue.

Over firing in the case of an open system, any open system, means boiling. As in 212 or whatever your boiling point is relative to your elevation. Como for example would probably boil at around 195* where he is located. 

Boiling does something that water only a few degrees less does not do, and that is that it actually changes the water chemistry. This is especially true if you have some bacterial action taking place in the tank.  Nearly all normally encountered bacteria is killed by water temps of only 160* or even less, and the residue of those organisms just sits there in the tank doing nothing. Unless of course it's allowed to build up to an egregious depth on the tank bottom where it can form sludge and create  what is called "under deposit" corrosion. ...but that's not the issue Rick had.......
 If there is bacterial or bio based residue in the tank and you boil it what happens is that the Carbon Dioxide in the matter is released and that can bring your PH well into acidic levels with in a few days or even less. The CO2 released from the matter breaks down the water chemistry and now all of a sudden you have a tank full of acid instead of nice balanced water.
The bio junk in Rick's Garn could have come from something that got in the tank while standing, maybe from the hose he used to fill it with, maybe it was airborne.....who knows? The point is that it was in there and _when his unit boiled_ the water chemistry went down the crapper. 

So what's a guy supposed to do?

1. Don't boil your Garn, OWB, storage or whatever you have.  obviously.......
2. If you do boil it, take a look inside if possible and see what things look like. At the VERY least, take a water sample and get it to a lab within a few days of the event. Tell them what happened and what things look like. Any information you can supply will give them clues to get their research on the right path. Otherwise they are looking for a needle in a haystack.
3. Do whatever they recommend.
4. About a week or so before seasonal shut down, take a good sample and send it in. Follow recommendations the lab and/or your manufacturer makes for seasonal shut down.
5. Take another sample about mid heating season and send that in to monitor what is going on with your chemistry as the year progresses.

6. Forgot one......fill your Garn, your tank, OWB or whatever to the top or until it overflows during the off season.


  Lot's of us have five figure amounts of equipment, time and materials invested in these systems. A hundred bucks a year is a small price to pay for ensuring long and happy life from your boiler. There are wood burners of all types that I have seen go from functioning to perforated in a very short time. Most folks never bother to find out exactly why but I'd lay money on the fact that their water became acidic for one reason or another. Biological contaminants are only one reason out of dozens that this can happen.


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## bigburner (Feb 8, 2011)

Lotâ€™s of us have five figure amounts of equipment, time and materials invested in these systems. --------------------------------------- and counting!!  Another day another HX,valve or something.


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## Der Fuirmeister (Feb 8, 2011)

Willman said:
			
		

> So its all about the water quality. Seems logical.The Achilles heel of water heating. What would a testing company look for in the way of contaminants? Most prolly fill their systems with well water. Wonder if city water is better?
> 
> Distilled water is prolly the way to go. Knowing the possible metal degradation due to poor quality water would be enough to try to locate a supplier of distilled. Barring that what other purification methods would be acceptable? Reverse osmosis maybe? I am still wondering about full coating of water tanks. Even if a small area started to be affected it would be easy to spot on a yearly visual inspection.
> 
> ...



We used city water.  Mike tested our tap water and found bacteria.  Didn't ask what flavor.....

I've been told not to use distilled or RO water.  Deionized was recommended.  No local source and you still need to test and treat regularly no matter what water you use.

Like Rick I was really upset.  The only real answer I've heard is test / treat / monitor.....test / treat / monitor.....test / treat / monitor.


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## Como (Feb 8, 2011)

Sanitation temperature for things like a commercial dishwashers is 180F.

If I go down to Home Depot I am not going to find anything to treat a hydronic system, but if you went into an English equivalent you would as Radiators are the normal way of heating a house.

I think most people know that they need to treat the water, my guess is that most do not, or do so infrequently, when things go wrong.

http://www.fernox.com/files/Fernox/Content/PDF/English/protector_mb1.pdf

Mentions bacterial issues.


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## bigburner (Feb 8, 2011)

Deionized was recommended. ------------- better check that, it may not be hard on steel but it will attack copper in a big way from what I can remember.


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## Der Fuirmeister (Feb 8, 2011)

bpirger said:
			
		

> I wish Garn had their website still around....I guess we will have to get an explicit answer from Garn regarding their recommendation on maximum fire temperature.



They do.....http://www.garn.com/


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## Der Fuirmeister (Feb 8, 2011)

bigburner said:
			
		

> Deionized was recommended. ------------- better check that, it may not be hard on steel but it will attack copper in a big way from what I can remember.



"...deionized was recommended...".....I should have added....by someone here on this site .  For what it's worth, we have zero copper in either of our systems.


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## Fred61 (Feb 8, 2011)

bigburner said:
			
		

> Deionized was recommended. ------------- better check that, it may not be hard on steel but it will attack copper in a big way from what I can remember.



It was my understanding that both DI and RO water try to take back whatever was removed from them by attacking whatever is confining them, causing more corrosion.
Also I wanted to point out that the bacteria living in the hot springs in Yellowstone thrive in both boiling and high acid environment with some being as acidic as battery acid.


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## steam man (Feb 8, 2011)

Der Fiur Meister said:
			
		

> Willman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am not sure why distilled water would not be recommended since that's what is put in high pressure boilers and ultra pure water in nuclear reactors to prevent scaling etc. In my field we occasionaly acid clean boilers and then coat or more correctly, "passivate" the carbon steel to prevent corrosion from O2 attack. The higher the temp the more critical it is.  I am not sure how you would accomplish that on a low temperature system though I am still looking. The inside of the Garn looked ugly to me. Here's a couple links to the passivation process to better understand it: http://www.vecom.nl/english/documentation/tb/TB-2005-17-eng.pdf and http://www.finishing.com/118/22.shtml.

Mike


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## bpirger (Feb 8, 2011)

Indeed, the Garn site is there, but the forum is gone.  Sorry for the miswrite.

And I will also point out that in the manuals, Garn does go on about bacteria and corrosion.  I don't think they have missed the emphasis about treatment, corrosion, and especially from bacteria.  No concerns there from a liability stand point whatsoever, in my humble opinion.

No mention though of a 190 limit.   

Yes, if they rate stored BTU's from 200-120, then I'd have to say that is "assurance" than firing to 200 is OK......

Not so easy to look inside the beast....that will have to wait.  The 8" of fresh snowfall last night conaumed my morning free time....

The house is warm, the mess is ALL outside, and the oil boiler (and inside woodstove) have been OFF since Nov.  Gotta love it!

Is there any reason why not to add a biocide say annually just as a preventive measure?


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## Clarkbug (Feb 8, 2011)

I have been reading this thread with interest, since Im hoping to make the jump to the wood-fired boiler-ness in the next few months.  Im still a long way from that conceptually and financially, but I lurk to learn instead.

I wanted to add that deionized water would not be a good idea to fill your system with.  Having worked on several lab buildings in the commercial plumbing field, metal piping is not used for any of the connections.  While a good portion of this is to eliminate the seams that would be created at fittings etc. that create sites for bacteria growth, the other is what Fred61 mentioned.  When you remove the ions from the water, it will readily try to take back whatever is available from the system is in.  Plus I can imagine it would be incredibly expensive to fill a residential size with DI water.  And by the time you get it to your house, unless the truck that brings it has been cleaned/sterilized, it probably wont be DI by the time it gets there....

Also, wouldnt these corrosion issues really apply to any of the open systems, such as any of the OWB that exist?  Its not specific to a Garn boiler, other than where they have a coating on the interior parts, from what I have gathered.  Also, once the inside of the top of the boiler "rusts" (used for lack of a better term) wouldnt that effectively passivate the metal that isnt submerged in water?


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## bpirger (Feb 8, 2011)

Here's another question for the newer Garn owners.....or all for that matter.  Was the entire bottom surface of your tank covered in the white epoxy "paint"?  Do you have a 2000, 1500, 3200, etc?

In my 1500, I only had the "paint" under the sacrifical rod....not covering the entire length of the unit.  This surprised me somewhat....I'd think covering the entire bottom where whatever sludge will sit is good.  But perhaps they only coat under the sacrificial rod, as if somehow the pieces of rod drop down directly below?  

Perhaps I should have been more proactive about this before forging ahead with installation and fill.....

So what do you have?  Full covering or just partial, and what size unit?

My plan is to take some photos of the inside of the Garn, the water, the corrosion, and try and get the camera "looking up" at the top side of the tank.  Perhaps we can all post our current status to get a feel for what everyone has.  Nothing like a little experience to know what to expect as the norm.....


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## Jim K in PA (Feb 8, 2011)

pybyr said:
			
		

> As I am thinking about all this, I am wondering- given the fact that the Garn design can't be filled to the brim-- due to the need for expansion area- and the fact that you then have a zone of hot incredibly moist air above the water, it'd be extraordinary if some corrosion of exposed steel did not occur.
> 
> I think the questions need to be: "how much is normal?" and "when does it negatively affect function or longevity?"
> 
> Some of that may come down to metallurgy- some alloys can experience substantial surface corrosion but will be surprisingly resistant to rust-through.



Trevor, your comment is what I have been thinking all along.  There is no way you can completely prevent corrosion from occurring in a mild steel tank filled with water and some amount of oxygen.  ALL metals can and do corrode.  Heck, I have taken pictures of corroded welds inside a "stainless steel" tank on a fire department water truck.  Zinc and copper, two highly "corrosion resistent" metals, actually RELY on the formation of an outer layer of zinc or copper oxide to slow the progression of corrosion.  Have you ever seen an old steel car fender out in the field from the 1920s? Brown with rust, but that outer layer of FeO2 has actually protected the core metal from rapid, progressive corrosion.

Now, I am not saying that anyone, me included, wants a big rusty tank of water.  But, I surely do NOT expect my GARN to remain "rust free" no matter how many tests I perform or additives I add.  Conversely, bacteriological corrosion can be insidious, and as mentioned in the manuals, can be vigourous enough to pit through a tank wall in months and must be dealt with quickly and aggressively.  The photographs Rick took are good, but I cannot discern any particular features that would cause ME concern about imminent or even distant failure.  But his actions were sound, and his decision to share his experience commendable.

If anyone does find localized corrosion in their storage tank, GARN or other boiler, clean off the loose material and try to get a gage measurement of the depth of the pit.  That is the only way to really know what, if any, real damage has been done.


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## jebatty (Feb 8, 2011)

Do some reading on the difficult issues presented by the range of biological corrosion and you will find there are no easy or necessarily inexpensive remedies, and this is not likely to be "protective rust," but corrosion protected by the surface corrosion which continues to eat away underneath. I understand that in extreme cases 3/16" steel could be penetrated in a few weeks.

My post above on my old OWB describes a bladder expansion system, but also the boiler had a weighted vent that maintained, with the bladder, about 2 psi in the system. I doubt the water jacket ever had much, if any, free air space, as that was filled with water as the water jacket cooled and the water expansion flowed back into the water jacket. So I guess this might have been a hybrid open/closed system with very low pressure. Others may have the same type of boiler.


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## heaterman (Feb 8, 2011)

Just a FYI and a story to illustrate what can and sometimes does happen.

A very large midwestern city ceased adding chromate to their boiler water supply when the use of them was banned. The chromate (probably zinc chromate) was specifically introduced into the water to prevent bacterial corrosion in piping and other vessels.  Long story short, during the first heating season, 30% of the boilers in city owned buildings failed due to corrosion that was found to be bacterially related. These were all closed system boilers, and I didn't hear it said during the telling but I would bet they were all steam boilers that of course, ran above 212*.

I'll say this again here for some who have missed it previously. 

190* in a Garn, a storage tank or any other open system is not an issue. _BOILING_ the water is the issue that drastically changes PH levels due to a host of factors. Biological contamination being only one of them.


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## Rick Stanley (Feb 8, 2011)

heaterman said:
			
		

> Just a FYI and a story to illustrate what can and sometimes does happen.
> 
> A very large midwestern city ceased adding chromate to their boiler water supply when the use of them was banned. The chromate (probably zinc chromate) was specifically introduced into the water to prevent bacterial corrosion in piping and other vessels.  Long story short, during the first heating season, 30% of the boilers in city owned buildings failed due to corrosion that was found to be bacterially related. These were all closed system boilers, and I didn't hear it said during the telling but I would bet they were all steam boilers that of course, ran above 212*.
> 
> ...



Ok, so that means we shouldn't BOIL a Garn. Because there might be a dead mouse in there. Right? It says on page 5 of the manual that I have, that if you build a fire in a Garn when the water temp is at 185 that you will approach the boiling point of water and water will come out of the overflow pipe and that is a "nuisance, wastes energy and evaporates water from the tank". Maybe it should say "HOLY CRAP STUPID FARMER DON'T EVER EVER OVERFIRE" just sayin


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## Kemer (Feb 8, 2011)

Mine is only coated under the rod.I also agree with heaterman and Jim K on there comments


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## Rick Stanley (Feb 8, 2011)

I went back and checked this out......
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/52508/P15/


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## Der Fuirmeister (Feb 8, 2011)

bpirger said:
			
		

> Here's another question for the newer Garn owners.....or all for that matter.  Was the entire bottom surface of your tank covered in the white epoxy "paint"?  Do you have a 2000, 1500, 3200, etc?
> 
> In my 1500, I only had the "paint" under the sacrifical rod....not covering the entire length of the unit.  This surprised me somewhat....I'd think covering the entire bottom where whatever sludge will sit is good.  But perhaps they only coat under the sacrificial rod, as if somehow the pieces of rod drop down directly below?
> 
> ...



Our 1500 purchased in 2009 was not completely covered.  Only under the rod.


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## Rick Stanley (Feb 8, 2011)

bpirger said:
			
		

> Here's another question for the newer Garn owners.....or all for that matter.  Was the entire bottom surface of your tank covered in the white epoxy "paint"?  Do you have a 2000, 1500, 3200, etc?
> 
> In my 1500, I only had the "paint" under the sacrifical rod....not covering the entire length of the unit.  This surprised me somewhat....I'd think covering the entire bottom where whatever sludge will sit is good.  But perhaps they only coat under the sacrificial rod, as if somehow the pieces of rod drop down directly below?
> 
> ...



Mine is a 2000, bought in 2008, the whole bottom is covered


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## heaterman (Feb 8, 2011)

Rick Stanley said:
			
		

> heaterman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



LOL  I can ask Martin and see if they can make that change in the manual.

In regards to temperature(s)......bear in mind that the temp you are seeing on your gauge is measuring at that one particular point. It would be logical to assume that variations can and do occur throughout a boiler. especially one the size of a garn.  I use 190 as a reference point of _my own recommendation_ to allow some margin for error on the gauge as well as variation in the tank. The issue is and always will be actually getting the whole mess to the boiling point. As we all understand now, it's something to be avoided. 

This has been a good learning experience for everyone involved. I've looked up stuff and read stuff and learned stuff about water quality that I never would have realized otherwise. 
Talking with Mike yesterday, it became pretty clear that there are so many variables involved with incidents like yours that pinpointing any one thing that caused it is almost impossible. I have to admit that while I knew elevated water temps can possibly cause problems, I never really understood the mechanisms that make it happen. Now at least I know a couple out of the hundreds.  One other thing that I'm beginning to understand is that if manufacturers put all the stuff that can happen into the owners manual, it would take up more space than the boiler itself. No one would ever buy a wood boiler just from the shock of the manual. ....kinda like having kids. If we knew what we were getting into when we had 'em we'd have thought twice about it. 

I just want to thank you again Rick, for bringing this up in a forthright and candid fashion. It helps us all.


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## nt30410 (Feb 9, 2011)

Manuals are suggesting 185*F the max.......others are saying the chemicals are breaking down at 190*F.....and yet I am told the new controller has a sticker advising not to exceed 200*F. This is confusing. To correct the new manuals will not accomplish much for those owners who have older units with older manuals. If any changes are made to manuals then an addendum should be sent to all so they can up date their manuals which could be the difference between a healthy or dead boiler.


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## Willman (Feb 9, 2011)

I realize elevation affects boiling point. Doesn't pressure raise it also?  A closed system that loses power and is at the beginning of a burn without enough dump zone could boil real quick setting off the MRSA of steel. Anyone know what a closed system boils at an average seal level?

When heaterman mentioned the boilers prolly being steam I wondered how many years ago the dead men handled water quality within their systems. Did they use the banned chemicals back then an not have any of the bacteriologic issues or did they ? Or is the bacteria that is around a new strain brought on my "modern living"

Will


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## heaterman (Feb 9, 2011)

Willman said:
			
		

> I realize elevation affects boiling point. Doesn't pressure raise it also?  A closed system that loses power and is at the beginning of a burn without enough dump. zone could boil real quick setting off the MRSA of steel. Anyone know what a closed system boils at an average seal level?
> 
> When heaterman mentioned the boilers prolly being steam I wondered how many years ago the dead men handled water quality within their systems. Did they use the banned chemicals back then an not have any of the bacteriologic issues or did they ? Or is the bacteria that is around a new strain brought on my "modern living"
> 
> Will



Elevation, as in higher elevation lowers the boiling point of water.

A closed system at sea level pressure will boil at 212*F/100*C.  One could get into a circular argument and say that once it starts to boil the pressure will elevate in a closed system thereby raising the boiling point......... But at 10PM after a long day I ain't gonna go there. 

AFA your last question is concerned, that is a very good one. I think that it would be very educational to ask it over at heatinghelp.com from the people who hang out on "the Wall". If anyone would know over there it would be Steamhead or Dan Holohan himself. Those two guys have more knowledge of old steam systems than anyone I know.


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## heaterman (Feb 9, 2011)

nt30410 said:
			
		

> Manuals are suggesting 185*F the max.......others are saying the chemicals are breaking down at 190*F.....and yet I am told the new controller has a sticker advising not to exceed 200*F. This is confusing. To correct the new manuals will not accomplish much for those owners who have older units with older manuals. If any changes are made to manuals then an addendum should be sent to all so they can up date their manuals which could be the difference between a healthy or dead boiler.



I can spout this, that and the other thing based on my experience but in the end, regardless of whose equipment you have, follow the manufacturers recommendation. The manual is your friend.


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## Como (Feb 9, 2011)

Technically boiling point is a function of pressure rather than altitude.


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## heaterman (Feb 9, 2011)

Como said:
			
		

> Technically boiling point is a function of pressure rather than altitude.



Noted and corrected........

_Elevation, as in higher elevation lowers the boiling point of water due to reduced atmospheric pressure._


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## Willman (Feb 9, 2011)

Existing post on heating help from the steam thread.  


> It gets worse, Somebody used copper instead of steel for your steam pipes.  When steam hits the copper there is a metallic reaction.  The copper starts to rot, and the water pollutes your boiler.  You need to re-pipe the boiler using steel above the water-line.


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## Willman (Feb 9, 2011)

Searching existing threads  on heating help found this


> You should refer to the manufacturer's recommendations before using any additives to your boiler.  Normal operation of cast iron steam boilers does not require any chemical additives unless you have abnormal and corrosive water conditions


Will


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## Frozen Canuck (Feb 9, 2011)

I think were starting to mix apples & oranges here. The 2 references are from posts about steam boilers. They are different beasties than a water boiler. One always makes steam the other never should. Hence the different (change in) chemistry in the water as some of the replies in this post allude to when steaming/boiling occured, as well as all the possible sources of contamination that are present on a farm that may have also altered water chemistry. I have to agree with other posters in this thread that if it was a bacteria...well there are just far too many of them to justify the cost of testing to find out which one(s) did the deed. Far better from both a time & cost perspective to do a total kill then, clean-test, flush-test, then start the process of balancing the fluid & take more care so as not to boil/steam in future. Great thing about this thread is that we all get a lesson in why not to make, what are probably common mistakes for many members. Plenty of threads here about the "oops overfired my particlar brand" yesterday.


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## jebatty (Feb 9, 2011)

Another idea on keeping the Garn filled with water to prevent empty air space. Might the Garn overflow be plumbed to the bottom of a vented tank, which could be installed at the same level as the Garn, so that the vented tank would accept Garn overflow water, and the vented tank then also would backfill the Garn as the Garn cools down; that is, water in the Garn contracts as it cools, vacuum in the Garn pulls water from the tank back into the Garn?


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## Kemer (Feb 9, 2011)

When I received my Garn I was very disappointed in the fact that it was shipped with out any coverings on the openings.It states in the Manuel to keep it clean yet they ship it open to the elements.If it so important to keep it sterile why don't they do a better job of shipping? Some plastic would of kept the leaves out of mine and saved me some work.


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## woodsmaster (Feb 9, 2011)

Kemer said:
			
		

> When I received my Garn I was very disappointed in the fact that it was shipped with out any coverings on the openings.It states in the Manuel to keep it clean yet they ship it open to the elements.If it so important to keep it sterile why don't they do a better job of shipping? Some plastic would of kept the leaves out of mine and saved me some work.



Just a guess, but I'm guessing it may condensate and cause surface rust if all closed up and the temp changes.


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## TCaldwell (Feb 9, 2011)

check out www.ceram-kote.com   the product is ceram-kote 2000, upon talking to the mfgr,  for boiler water treatments it is rated to 350degf, also www.dampney.com the protexier system using the 795 primer and 794 topcoat.  there seem to be several products mostly sharing novalic epoxy as the primary component., Precision chemical says this practice is not uncommon.


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## TCaldwell (Feb 9, 2011)

Well notwithstanding the isolated bacterial incidents but the overfiring issue of the condensate turning the water acidic, there are probably enough reasons not to fire above 190+/- anyway, primarily reduced heat absorbsion capability, ie lower effiency. It would probably be more productive to re-evaluate lower supply water temps, emitters, mixing, injecting, reset ect. brings to mind a neighboring garn owner  who had the luxury of owning a garn before building his second house. his supply temp is 90degf he gets around the dwh issue simply by preheating his indirect fired hwh to 90 then feeds a elec hwh, to bring it up to 125 deg. this might not be attainable for most but there are probably areas that in most of our systems that gains could be had with a lot less risk.  since my garn is parked in the garage and has to be cleaned anyway, I will probably do more research on coating the inside of the tank, unless proven to be detramental, as i have already voided my warranty many times over.


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## steam man (Feb 9, 2011)

I would almost think that a high level coating application is going to involve some serious prep work such as sandblasting. If that 190F is such a critical number to maintain and a garn shouldn't be "shutdown" while firing wouldn't it be an idea to think about installing a heat dump mechanism? I use a Modine heater on my solar system when the tank gets to 165F and it works great. Keeps the tubes below 200F easily. Granted it would have to be a big one.


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## jebatty (Feb 9, 2011)

Maybe a question to ask is, given that Garn recommends best use of the Garn at supply temperatures of 140F and below, should a Garn even be considered when the primary application is continuous hot water supply above that? Certainly, firing until a desired higher temp is reached and then mixing down is not inconsistent with this, but trying to maintain continuous high temp is quite likely to result in the over-firing corrosion issues.

A second question, if coatings are needed, why should this not be part of the implemented design provided by the mfr? Why hasn't the mfr dealt with this issue, rather than placing the 9% risk rate on the consumer? Would a person purchase another very expensive product knowing that she had a 1 out of 11 chance of a failed product unless the person spent considerable additional time and money to make the product safe to use "as intended"?


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## Rick Stanley (Feb 9, 2011)

TCaldwell said:
			
		

> Well notwithstanding the isolated bacterial incidents but the overfiring issue of the condensate turning the water acidic, there are probably enough reasons not to fire above 190+/- anyway, primarily reduced heat absorbsion capability, ie lower effiency. It would probably be more productive to re-evaluate lower supply water temps, emitters, mixing, injecting, reset ect. brings to mind a neighboring garn owner  who had the luxury of owning a garn before building his second house. his supply temp is 90degf he gets around the dwh issue simply by preheating his indirect fired hwh to 90 then feeds a elec hwh, to bring it up to 125 deg. this might not be attainable for most but there are probably areas that in most of our systems that gains could be had with a lot less risk.  since my garn is parked in the garage and has to be cleaned anyway, I will probably do more research on coating the inside of the tank, unless proven to be detramental, as i have already voided my warranty many times over.



   That is exactly right, Tom. I have owned-up to my "action boo-boo's" that contributed to the corrosion issue. Didn't test early enough or often enough, took the sample wrong, didn't watch water level, and, of course, the boiling and all the chemistry that caused.
   The cause of the boiling, however, like you're saying, is another long list of "system boo-boo's". I boiled the thing over because I was pushing the temps to get less frequent burns and I overshot. The reason I needed higher temps is because I was/am keeping a large, poorly insulated, oil boiler hot enough to make dhw enough for two families with the coil that is in it. Big boo-boo. Like I've said before, I can heat this place, even in the coldest snaps with 140-150 degree water and dhw isn't an issue then. But the rest of the heating season I could run at maybe110-130 degree water with the radiation that I have if it weren't for the dhw issue. Chris told me that, the first time he was ever in my cellar. He looked at me and the oil boiler and said "you're gonna keep THAT thing hot??" 
   Plus, the way I have things piped-up between the oil boiler and the hx is totally backwards. But I did it that way because it was easiest. Chris told me how to do it, but I did it MY way :-/ . And the list goes on. So, if I had it plumbed and controlled the way that was recommended to me from the start, I would burn less wood and never even come close to boiling temps and I think that's what a Garn is designed to do, run long and cool.


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## DaveBP (Feb 9, 2011)

I remember seeing a movie clip (I think it was Disney) demonstrating the concept of nuclear fission. This was back in the "duck and cover" era.

Room with the floor completely covered with mouse traps, each with a ping-pong ball on its bail.

Man tosses a ping-pong ball into the room and.... chain reaction mayhem! Balls flying everywhere in every direction.

And then settled down to peace and quiet.

Not sure why that memory came to me while reading over this thread.


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## TCaldwell (Feb 9, 2011)

i think in any system designed today, one goal is make the system as efficient as possible, primarily using the lowest supply temp to satisfy demand , no mater how high a temp you choose heat the water. One you can heat it all at once, garn  or any downdrafter with storage  or continually heat it without storage.  basically the garn could be equal to a slightly less output boiler with the same storage, pick your poison. Any boiler that you want to maintain a high supply temp will have to be fed more often, i don't follow the logic of the garn and 140deg water. As far as the corrosion, i honestly believe more awareness and the severity of consequences will reduce this problem below the 9%, coating or not.  kind or reminds me of the econoburn - fan issue, at the end of the day when all the heads think solutions are found.


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## bpirger (Feb 9, 2011)

Jim...Hold on a sec.  I'm the guy who said the manual says 9% of Garn's have corrosion "issues".  I never said, nor did the manual, that these issues led to boiler failure,  So I think you might be gunning a little hard here against Dectra.  Again, Dectra is resoundingly clear about the concerns of corrosion and becuase of the variability of all sorts of issues (like installation, like initial water, like water treatment regime, etc.) they clearly state there is no warranty against corrosion.  Did that bother me?  Yep.  With such a huge outlay, for me anyways, I thought it was a little weak.  But then I look at heaterman's experience and that of other Garn users and I feel like it is a solid product with a very solid history.  I know of many standard oil boilers, pressurized, that failed within 20 years.  Yet I hear of many Garns, open, that have been fully operational for 20 years plus.....

So would it be nice to have a conformal coating to completely prevent corrosion?  Sure.  I think I'd rather have that on my truck and car, and everyone I will ever own, so that they don't rust.  Good luck....it doesn't happen.  Does that mean Toyota should be held accountable becuase my old '97 with 225,000 miles has a bit of rust on the frame?  No.  And in fact, the frame on that machine looks nearly new!  Impressive indeed!  

So we can walk around an not pick on everyone about everything.  I work with a software guy who does that...he has all the answers....everyone else's design suck....unit you ask him a hard question.  Then all I hear is "I'm the software guy".  So we all have to accept reality and the risks that go along.

Now, from this thread, we can learn.  Would it be nice to have Garn send out a clarification that says it is most ideal not to fire over 190 becuase that tends to break down water quality treatment sooner and may lead to increased biological concerns?  Sure.  I wish that was written and highlighted in the manual.   Heaterman posted that here 1 year ago.....in the Easy Big Fellla thread from Rick.

So as in many things, we learn, and we move forward.  The beauty of this forum is the sharing of these experiences and knowledge.  Truly amazing to have folks being so open here...and professional folks so willing to lend a hand as well.  In many other facets in life, people might pursue litigation.  Where has that gotten us as a whole?  One place is it caused Garn to shut down their forum....I'm sure they were afraid of comments made there and liability due to them.

Perhaps everyone here should always post a diclaimer, indicating they are not responsible for trying to help another out....


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## Como (Feb 9, 2011)

I am not aware of any boiler manufacturer, or radiator manufacturer, or pump manufacturer who would warranty this sort of item.

It would be similar to a Car Manufacturer warrantying the consequences of bad gas or oil, not within their control.

The more common issue in hot water systems is scaling due to hard water, that is not covered either.


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## jebatty (Feb 9, 2011)

> *bpirger:* Jimâ€¦Hold on a sec.  Iâ€™m the guy who said the manual says 9% of Garnâ€™s have corrosion â€œissuesâ€.  I never said, nor did the manual, that these issues led to boiler failure,  So I think you might be gunning a little hard here against Dectra.



You make your point well. Thank you for doing that. On the one hand I try to think of remedies to prevent the issue, and on the other the pictures that Rick posted raise an OMG response. Comes from a long background, not relevant here. I'll bow out of this thread.


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## TCaldwell (Feb 10, 2011)

you know -don't want to beat a dead horse but check this out   www.scalefreeintl.com


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## Holley (Feb 10, 2011)

I am grateful Rick took the time to document and post his corrosion issue and how he corrected it.  

When I first saw Rick's photos he was well into the process of cleaning under Mike's (Precision Chem) guidance. I was upset at learning that Mike had concluded that boiling the unit had been a contributing factor to the above water line corrosion. A year earlier I had told Rick that a boil resulting from an overfire was mostly a nuisance to be avoided... that if it happened once he was unlikely to do it again as he would learn the characteristics of his system.  I think I suggested not reloading at over 180 as a starting guideline.  

I was particularly discouraged when Rick told me that he had a bio test done just before discovering the bacterial corrosion and that it had come back clean! We recommend twice a year visual inspection and water testing and we send reminders out with the belief that that schedule will head off any serious corrosion issue. I spent quite a bit of time on the phone with both Rick and Mike trying to understand what had gone wrong here. Like Rick I couldn't get my head around the negative bio test. I now believe I understand it, but I'll get back to that.

Corrosion is about the only way a GARN can be damaged.  The owner's manual talks at length about different types of corrosion issues and the need for water testing and visual examination of the tank. The type of bacterial corrosion above the water line that Rick experienced after boiling is not common. Dectra is very forthright in the manual about the potential for and causes of corrosion issues. If over-firing and boiling had been understood to be a common cause of the type and degree of corrosion Rick experienced, the manuals would have addressed it. Common or not, the newest manuals now do address it.

The new digital GARN controls have been shipping for about month or so now. The new control has the following language on the front cover:

Notice:  DO NOT OVERFIRE! If the tank temperature exceeds 200 degrees F or steam is visibly discharging from the overflow pipe or the manhole cover â€“ you are OVERFIRING.  There is no danger of explosion. However, higher temperatures significantly increase water loss from the unit and may initiate moisture damage within your building or shed. Steam as a result of over-firing may significantly increase corrosion.

Every new GARN is now shipped without water treatment chemicals, but with a water test kit. The owner is instructed to submit a water sample before filling their tank. Chemicals will not be shipped until that sample has been received and processed. This allows Precision Chem to make individual adjustments  for unusual water issues, to get the owner into the testing routine and into Precision Chem's data base.

Additionally, in our territory emails or postcards are sent twice a year reminding GARN owners of the need to maintain testing. The GARN owner's manual devotes several pages to the potential for corrosion and the critical need to maintain testing and good water chemistry. However, for some reason only about 1/3 of GARN owners avail themselves of the testing program, 2/3 do not!  I'd guess that compliance among Hearth readers is much higher

I had a phone call the other night from a GARN owner in New Brunswick who suggested that if a GARN is not going to be fired for several months fill the GARN unit to the manway ring thus fully wetting the top surface inside the tank. Heaterman then made the same suggestion. The  information  that  Heaterman posted in #89 clarifying the over-firing issues was really good  and I'd suggest that every GARN owner print it as a reminder.  

As to that reference in the manual relating that 9% of GARNS have experienced a corrosion issue,  I'm told that that number is high and out of date. Apparently in the 80's environmental concerns eliminated many earlier water treatment options and until safer treatment methods were developed there were industry wide boiler corrosion issues. That 9% reflects those years. As bpirger pointed out that statement also does not mean that those 9 out of 100 GARN units were destroyed.......it means they experienced a correctable corrosion issue.

I mentioned earlier that I was really troubled that Rick's bio test, done just before his visual assessment, had failed to detect contamination. After re-reading Rick's post I realized that he had drawn the water sample from a point in his basement 170 feet from his GARN and that the circulator had not been run since the previous heating season. The water that Rick drew was pretty much isolated from the soup that was brewing in his GARN so now the clean test doesn't surprise me. It also reinforces the need to collect the sample through the manway and do a visual check at the same time.

Finally, I never cease to be amazed at the volume of collective and supportive knowledge that exists in this forum. Hopefully, we have all learned much more about water chemistry, biological contamination and corrosion as a result of Ricks experience and this discussion.  Thanks to all of you.


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## brad068 (Feb 12, 2011)

Just thinking out loud here.

Bio contamination possibilities. What happens when we let our garns shut down for the season? First, the water keeps cooling down slowly. What happens to water when it cools- it shrinks. So what is going to replace that volume once occupied by water? Air. And where is that air drawn from? Up the overflow tube.

Depending on what/where you boiler room is, that air could be laden with all kinds of bacteria.

This cycling process is constant during the heating season but the high water temps neutralize any organics I'm thinking. 

So do you guys think that we may need some sore of filtering device on the overflow? Or just make sure when boiler is shut down AND cooled down, fill it up till it over flows?


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## Singed Eyebrows (Feb 12, 2011)

Chris@FHS said:
			
		

> I am grateful Rick took the time to document and post his corrosion issue and how he corrected it.
> 
> When I first saw Rick's photos he was well into the process of cleaning under Mike's (Precision Chem) guidance. I was upset at learning that Mike had concluded that boiling the unit had been a contributing factor to the above water line corrosion. A year earlier I had told Rick that a boil resulting from an overfire was mostly a nuisance to be avoided... that if it happened once he was unlikely to do it again as he would learn the characteristics of his system.  I think I suggested not reloading at over 180 as a starting guideline.
> 
> ...


 Chris, Why can't the Garn be coated on the inside to protect against damage? Owners have quite a few hoops to jump through & if there are mistakes of any kind there is no warrantee. This boiler was engineered out mechanically/function wise. With a decent coating maybe some of the draining/testing, testing/draining could be eliminated, Randy


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## TCaldwell (Feb 12, 2011)

TCaldwell said:
			
		

> check out www.ceram-kote.com   the product is ceram-kote 2000, upon talking to the mfgr,  for boiler water treatments it is rated to 350degf, also www.dampney.com the protexier system using the 795 primer and 794 topcoat.  there seem to be several products mostly sharing novalic epoxy as the prim
> ary component., Precision chemical says this practice is not uncommon.


                 also check out www.scalefreeintl.com                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 In either case, proper cleaning, sandblasting is required to insure product adhesion, as asked in earlier thread at the very least if garn coats the bottom of the tank, so scale and bacterial corrosion don't adhere why is the top third of the tank not also coated above the waterline to combat rust at the same time? maybe steve or chris might know? Maybe there is a good reason for not, just seems a reasonable thing to do at the same time. the scale free is very interesting also requiring no water treatment .


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## Rick Stanley (Feb 12, 2011)

I wish we could get Mike from PrecisionChem into this discussion because Chris and Steve and Dectra and all of us rely on his say-so. But I remember talking with him about this coating issue and there was some difference between "above/at" the waterline versus "below" the waterline that made it a not-good idea to coat the top portion of the tank.
    But maybe we were not talking about Dectra changing their manufacturing process but rather, considering trying to clean-up my tank and coat it with something. I can't remember. But there was some snafu related to coating above and below with the same stuff.


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## heaterman (Feb 12, 2011)

Regarding tank coatings............

These are my thoughts and my thoughts only.

I would guess that there is also a flip side to coating the tank and that is the increased risk of another type of corrosion, which is called "under deposit corrosion". This occurs when an area of the coating becomes compromised and allows water to contact the surface metal. What happens in simple terms is that the corrosive action becomes concentrated on that one spot rather than being spread throughout the entire metal surface. The effect is not much different than if you took a 1/4" bit and started drilling on the steel in that spot. The vast majority of the tank will remain intact but a hole is a hole no matter what. That being the case, coating the tank is not a 100% cure all and end all solution. 

Another factor from a manufacturing standpoint is cost. A Garn is already in the upper range of pricing in the market and adding the cost of surface prep and coating would make it higher yet. Given that the product is fairly low volume, each unit is virtually hand made so it would be impossible to get any economies of scale or production line savings ala Central Boiler and others like them.

I would also think that given the outstanding track record of Garn in terms of longevity over the 30+ years they have been manufactured, the benefits of coating would in a vast majority of cases, be outweighed by the costs and risks entailed by coating the tank.


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## heaterman (Feb 12, 2011)

Rick Stanley said:
			
		

> I wish we could get Mike from PrecisionChem into this discussion because Chris and Steve and Dectra and all of us rely on his say-so. But I remember talking with him about this coating issue and there was some difference between "above/at" the waterline versus "below" the waterline that made it a not-good idea to coat the top portion of the tank.
> But maybe we were not talking about Dectra changing their manufacturing process but rather, considering trying to clean-up my tank and coat it with something. I can't remember. But there was some snafu related to coating above and below with the same stuff.



  Regarding Mike or even Martin entering this conversation......Knowing both of them to some extent, I have no doubt they would love to jump in here and help people understand all the facets of water chemistry and how it interacts with metal. The sad fact of today's world is that there are many in the legal profession that circle sites like this just looking for something to attack and line their pockets or ego. In addition, there are some who will take an incident like Rick experienced and turn it into a personal vendetta against a company or product. _(Again Rick, you deserve a huge pat on the back for the honest and forthright manner you presented this)_ That being the sad state of affairs we find ourselves in, I don't think they or any other manufacturer would jump into something like this. 
  I'm aware of another heating site that had manufacturers factory level techs posting on it and it was wonderfully refreshing to be able to soak up all the internal knowledge they offered. The sad fact is that a topic came up where the manufacturer was attacked much the same as some of the posts on this thread and it became a public trial of sorts right on the www. After that experience on the website, all the manufacturers left, not just the one who was attacked. The site has since also lost a lot of the contractors and engineers that used to hang out there and it's value to me has diminished to say the least. 

Heck, I would dare bet that some of what I have said could be used against me in a court of law, but I don't have all that much to lose so they can have it if they want. I'd rather learn and help others learn than worry about all the what if's.......
I'd probably feel differently if I had a whole company and my life's work tied up in my product.


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## Fred61 (Feb 12, 2011)

I have a question. In one of the posts above someone wrote in capital letters "DO NOT USE CHLORINE" and I would like to know why. Back at my old place I had a well drilled with 20 feet of casing. Since the static level was at ground level, there was about 15 or 16 feet of casing that contained water. I ended up with a rust situation and the drilling engineer told me it was bacteriologic contamination. I was advised to add chlorine bleach to the well. It worked! 24 years later the water was still clear of rust. Why didn't it re-infect in the following years?

I don't believe chlorine will last 24 hours in an open system such as with a Garn. It will gas out quite rapidly whether heated or not. You guys with hot tubs know how long it lasts.

Heck, when I lived in town and was hooked to the municipal water supply, the water was so laden with chlorine I could wear a pair of dark blue trousers in the morning, go home and wash them and end up with a pair of light blue ones for the evening.


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## steam man (Feb 12, 2011)

I've had years of boiler water testing, operations, and maintenance. This problem only illustrates the need for proper maintenance even when the boiler is not in firing season and it really isn't that difficult. The Garn issue makes me think of trying to maintain my pool more than a boiler. I would love to have one of those monsters down in my basement.


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## steam man (Feb 12, 2011)

Fred61 said:
			
		

> I have a question. In one of the posts above someone wrote in capital letters "DO NOT USE CHLORINE" and I would like to know why. Back at my old place I had a well drilled with 20 feet of casing. Since the static level was at ground level, there was about 15 or 16 feet of casing that contained water. I ended up with a rust situation and the drilling engineer told me it was bacteriologic contamination. I was advised to add chlorine bleach to the well. It worked! 24 years later the water was still clear of rust. Why didn't it re-infect in the following years?
> 
> I don't believe chlorine will last 24 hours in an open system such as with a Garn. It will gas out quite rapidly whether heated or not. You guys with hot tubs know how long it lasts.
> 
> Heck, when I lived in town and was hooked to the municipal water supply, the water was so laden with chlorine I could wear a pair of dark blue trousers in the morning, go home and wash them and end up with a pair of light blue ones for the evening.



The short answer: At elevated temps chlorine is bad news. It is highly reactive. Salts will form and cause corrosion.


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## heaterman (Feb 12, 2011)

Fred61 said:
			
		

> I have a question. In one of the posts above someone wrote in capital letters "DO NOT USE CHLORINE" and I would like to know why. Back at my old place I had a well drilled with 20 feet of casing. Since the static level was at ground level, there was about 15 or 16 feet of casing that contained water. I ended up with a rust situation and the drilling engineer told me it was bacteriologic contamination. I was advised to add chlorine bleach to the well. It worked! 24 years later the water was still clear of rust. Why didn't it re-infect in the following years?
> 
> I don't believe chlorine will last 24 hours in an open system such as with a Garn. It will gas out quite rapidly whether heated or not. You guys with hot tubs know how long it lasts.
> 
> Heck, when I lived in town and was hooked to the municipal water supply, the water was so laden with chlorine I could wear a pair of dark blue trousers in the morning, go home and wash them and end up with a pair of light blue ones for the evening.



Different animal completely. Being that the water in a heating system is "captive" so to speak as opposed to constant fresh water running through pipes in the case of a well. It's standard practice to chlorinate a new well as the well itself has been exposed to air and contaminants on the bit or well tools. Once it's flushed out, the chlorine and residuals of it are gone and being that the well is sealed no further issues should occur. 

AFA chlorine in pools is concerned, there's a good reason everything is made of plastic or fiberglass. Same with heat exchangers used for them. Stainless and even titanium are standard equipment and that should tell you something about the corrosive nature of chlorine.


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## sdrobertson (Feb 12, 2011)

This post is a excellent one and I also want to thank Rick for starting this.  This morning I took a water sample to check for "floaties" and I'm happy to report to see nothing in the water sample that settled out.  I have a closed system but I would have never check this without this post.  I had no idea that "things" could grow in a boiler system.  Thanks again to everyone.

**EDIT**I forgot to include this......Even after reading about Rick's problems, I would still love to have a Garn!


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## brad068 (Feb 12, 2011)

heaterman said:
			
		

> Regarding tank coatings............
> 
> These are my thoughts and my thoughts only.
> 
> ...



What I would compare it to is back when the auto industry came out with this great undercoating _____ armor?

The product was great at holding its self together but would let loose off the metal it was coating. It would then create a perfect pocket to trap moisture ,salt, sediment, between the coating and metal which in turn ate the metal right away (Replaced a few ford ranger spring perches).

Its great if it will stay in constant bond with the metal but once it starts to let loose you could be in big trouble.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Feb 12, 2011)

If this really is a problem or not will probably be apparent soon as Garn owners carefully monitor their boiler insides. Hopefully the OP's experience was just a fluke, Randy


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## bigburner (Feb 12, 2011)

I researched tank linings before my project. Had the factory rep come out and offer some coating ideas all which were crazy expensive. The required metal prep would be almost impossible to do inside a garn best quality of sand blast. Anode and good water treatment I think is the key, the above water line areas still have me puzzled, it's like a rain forest in there. [warm,moist,dark]


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## Fred61 (Feb 12, 2011)

What would an ozone bulb do to reduce bacteria?


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## DaveBP (Feb 12, 2011)

I believe ozone might be even more corrosive than chlorine.


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## Como (Feb 12, 2011)

How about Hydrogen Peroxide?


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## steam man (Feb 13, 2011)

Fred61 said:
			
		

> What would an ozone bulb do to reduce bacteria?



I don't know what an ozone bulb is but I do use an industrial grade ultraviolet lamp system at work to kill bacteria in the potable water system.


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## brad068 (Feb 13, 2011)

To the best of my knowledge O3 does destroy bacteria. UV will kill in strong dosage but it mainly disrupts the genetics of the cell to stop their reproduction capabilities.

My opinion is, the best way to eliminate bio issues is to keep pH high and O2 low.


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## seabee570 (Feb 13, 2011)

corrosion......I am with steam man...I have many years experience with steam boilers...the first rule of thumb is if you are laying up the boiler for the non-heating season you should fill it to the top........bacterial corrosion,maybe,but if it was filled with water, it  probably would not have been as bad as it was......


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## Como (Feb 13, 2011)

I remember my Dad telling me that when he did his stint in the Air Force it was a Court Martial offence not to fill up the fuel tanks of the aircraft, maybe for similar reasons?


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## seabee570 (Feb 13, 2011)

i think the main concern with not filling fuel tanks is water would condense on the top of the tank and contaminate the fuel


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## charly (Feb 14, 2011)

seabee570 said:
			
		

> i think the main concern with not filling fuel tanks is water would condense on the top of the tank and contaminate the fuel


  I would agree 100%.


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## bigburner (Feb 14, 2011)

The small planes I have flown this would make sense [just a regular tank] The military helos I crewed all had collapsible blatter tanks that were self sealing.


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## Jim K in PA (Feb 14, 2011)

Just a personal engineering perspective on the interior coating question.  A GARN tank has a lot of  surface area, and a lot of intersecting surfaces (end walls, HX piping, fire box, etc.).   The amount of temperature variation both in terms of surface to surface Delta T, as well as in overall water temp variation, means that all that steel goes through some substantial expansion and contraction relative to surface area and linear joints (seams).  A coating that can handle the extremely high temps of the HX tubing, the flex at the end wall/side intersections, and the growth in wall surface area would have to be one heck of a special material.  Inflexible coatings will crack and lead to more nefarious sub-surface corrosion described earlier by Heaterman.  Coating the entire interior of a GARN or any other complex boiler is no simple task, nor likely to be consistently effective.  

Just my thoughts.


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## sw-ei (Feb 22, 2011)

Clarkbug said:
			
		

> deionized water would not be a good idea to fill your system with.  Having worked on several lab buildings in the commercial plumbing field, metal piping is not used for any of the connections.  While a good portion of this is to eliminate the seams that would be created at fittings etc. that create sites for bacteria growth, the other is what Fred61 mentioned.  When you remove the ions from the water, it will readily try to take back whatever is available from the system is in.  Plus I can imagine it would be incredibly expensive to fill a residential size with DI water.  And by the time you get it to your house, unless the truck that brings it has been cleaned/sterilized, it probably wont be DI by the time it gets there.



DI water is indeed an effective solvent and will leach material from pretty much whatever it comes in contact with.  This leaching increases with temperature and contact time.  There is a case for using it for at least part of a system fill-up, however.  If you have hard water, you can blend DI or RO water with it in order to bring the total hardness down into the optimal (50 ppm?) range before you start adding chemicals.  This will not add Cl- the way a softener will, and can also reduce your initial chemical cost because you are no longer fighting the excess Ca+ and Mg+ in the base water.  If you need a quantity of DI water, you can buy or rent a DI resin bed and fill through it for part of the system fill.  If you use a lot of make-up water and want to blend that, a small DI vessel can be paired with a mixing valve to produce an ongoing supply at the desired hardness.


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## heaterman (Feb 22, 2011)

sw-ei said:
			
		

> Clarkbug said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Both of these posts are good information and spot on accurate.  Thanks to both of you for the clarification!


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