# Copper vs Black Iron?



## Tennman (Nov 12, 2013)

Slammed at work so I can't do the plumbing on my storage addition. I was always planning on black iron because I don't trust my soldering skills, but now I don't have time to do the work. That means hiring out the plumbing modifications. So copper is way more expensive than black iron, but way less in terms of install time. At $100-125/hr for the plumber, is it a wash and are there benefits of going copper? Running the lines will be somewhat complex since I must run up and over a door frame to get to the tanks with lots of elbows, joints, unions, etc. I've told the plumber all American fittings (no Chinese junk) in black iron. Now I'm thinking it may actually be cheaper in copper because of the labor savings. I intend to keep everything 1 1/2" dia just to keep head losses low in the boiler barn.  The Laddomat has 1 1/4" fittings so I guess boiler to storage could be 1 1/4". Thots? Way behind schedule, but gotta balance priorities.


----------



## maple1 (Nov 12, 2013)

You might be right on the cost thing from reduced time spent.

Can you do it all 1-1/4? Is the 1-1/2 you were planning in any long runs? If you get to many fittings, the $$ go up quite a bit with each increase in pipe size, especially with copper. That stuff can be downright scary, $$-wise. I think with a 1-1/4 laddomat, I would use that for max pipe size. How far between your boiler & storage?


----------



## Tennman (Nov 12, 2013)

Maple, The tanks sit about 10' to the left of the boiler on the other side of a doorway. Lack of foresight when I built the barn. So boiler to storage is probably ~20-25' one-way and storage to underground lines probably 30'-35' one-way. Gotta go up, attach to ceiling joists and back down unfortunately. I'm leaning copper now cause I think the cost will be nearly a wash. I've already bought the isolation ball valves for the storage tank manifolds, so the manifolds can stay BI and just to the runs in copper between everything.


----------



## Coal Reaper (Nov 12, 2013)

my thought (and nothing to back this other than copper is less mass so it made sense to me) was that copper would heat up faster than BI when charging tanks.  i ran 1-1/4" copper from boiler to storage tanks and PEX on the return.  soldering wasnt bad at all, used acetylene.  shame TN is so far, i have some ~30' sections of PEX leftover...


----------



## jrod770 (Nov 12, 2013)

Tennman said:


> Slammed at work so I can't do the plumbing on my storage addition. I was always planning on black iron because I don't trust my soldering skills, but now I don't have time to do the work. That means hiring out the plumbing modifications. So copper is way more expensive than black iron, but way less in terms of install time. At $100-125/hr for the plumber, is it a wash and are there benefits of going copper? Running the lines will be somewhat complex since I must run up and over a door frame to get to the tanks with lots of elbows, joints, unions, etc. I've told the plumber all American fittings (no Chinese junk) in black iron. Now I'm thinking it may actually be cheaper in copper because of the labor savings. I intend to keep everything 1 1/2" dia just to keep head losses low in the boiler barn.  The Laddomat has 1 1/4" fittings so I guess boiler to storage could be 1 1/4". Thots? Way behind schedule, but gotta balance priorities.



$100-$125/hr for the plumber?  Get another quote.  That is a rip off.  I am a plumbing contractor in Ohio and would never think about charging someone those amounts for the work described.


----------



## iceguy4 (Nov 12, 2013)

Tennman said:


> I don't trust my soldering skills


 

Tinning flux will make you a pro. amazing ...the difference.


----------



## kopeck (Nov 12, 2013)

I found iron to be a bit of a pain but that was due mostly to crappy imported fittings, copper was easy and once you figure out sweating it's not bad to do.  If you go iron, so WARD fittings!

If I was paying some one...well I would do what they're most comfortable with!

K


----------



## Tennman (Nov 13, 2013)

Really the rate's high? Huh... I will get more quotes around. He did say that if it was a 1-2 day job where he could stay in one place it would be less. 

I need to mess with the tinning flux suggestion. I'm sure some fittings and the suggestions I've gotten around here I could get comfortable. But at the moment work is 10-14hr days, 6 days/week until Xmas.

100% agree on fittings kopeck. I spend ~two days removing all the leaky, crappy, porous Chinese fittings after my first year. Just unbelievable junk that I was shocked stores were actually selling. Yeah, now that I think about it, gonna let the plumber advise and quote.

Thanks all.


----------



## Pat53 (Nov 13, 2013)

jrod770 said:


> $100-$125/hr for the plumber?  Get another quote.  That is a rip off.  I am a plumbing contractor in Ohio and would never think about charging someone those amounts for the work described.


 
That's what I was thinking. That's double the plumbers rate around here.


----------



## altmartion (Nov 13, 2013)

why not use pex? and unfortunately, if you are worried about saving money demanding all American product is not the answer. it sucks but it usually costs a lot more. I try as much as possible to buy American. but when I am trying to out bid others it is real hard unless they are extremely patriotic as well, but usually money trumps the flag.


----------



## arbutus (Nov 13, 2013)

I was new at soldering when I was putting in my piping, but I found that Oatey 95 tinning flux worked fine with lead free solder.  Nokorrode brand flux worked great with both lead free and 50/50 solder.  50/50 solder is easier than lead free.

I found that the water soluble gel flux did NOT work well at all.

Watch a few youtube videos, use steel wool or scotch brite on the tube, and get a couple of brushes for your fittings, clean everything well, and go to town.  I had no leaks in any of my solder joints, but did have a couple of black iron pipe joints that needed an extra half turn after things warmed up.


----------



## kopeck (Nov 13, 2013)

altmartion said:


> why not use pex? and unfortunately, if you are worried about saving money demanding all American product is not the answer. it sucks but it usually costs a lot more. I try as much as possible to buy American. but when I am trying to out bid others it is real hard unless they are extremely patriotic as well, but usually money trumps the flag.



Pex is fine in small diameters, in larger diameters it quite a bit more difficult to work with and take even more specialized tools.

K


----------



## kopeck (Nov 13, 2013)

arbutus said:


> I was new at soldering when I was putting in my piping, but I found that Oatey 95 tinning flux worked fine with lead free solder.  Nokorrode brand flux worked great with both lead free and 50/50 solder.  50/50 solder is easier than lead free.
> 
> I found that the water soluble gel flux did NOT work well at all.
> 
> Watch a few youtube videos, use steel wool or scotch brite on the tube, and get a couple of brushes for your fittings, clean everything well, and go to town.  I had no leaks in any of my solder joints, but did have a couple of black iron pipe joints that needed an extra half turn after things warmed up.



Don't use steel wool, it has oil in it and can effect how well the joint flows.

I've never used tinned flux, I have some old stuff that I'm just finishing up and it works well.  I bought some water soluble flux to replace it and while I was able to use it I don't like it as much as the old stuff.  I found you had to be johnny on the spot with the solder, a hair to much heat and it would burn.  On 3/4" it wasn't terrible, might be less fun on 1 1/4" pipe.  Then again I was using mapp, I bet with propane it would be a bit more forgiving.

K


----------



## altmartion (Nov 13, 2013)

kopeck said:


> Pex is fine in small diameters, in larger diameters it quite a bit more difficult to work with and take even more specialized tools.
> 
> K


 you can rent tools. pex is a lot cheaper than copper (for now) and a lot more reliable than iron and a lot easier to work with. he could also go with pex-al-pex. cost a lot  more but is a simple to work with.


----------



## stee6043 (Nov 13, 2013)

altmartion said:


> you can rent tools. pex is a lot cheaper than copper (for now) and a lot more reliable than iron and a lot easier to work with. he could also go with pex-al-pex. cost a lot  more but is a simple to work with.


 

Pex more reliable than black iron pipe?  Can you explain that further?  I've never heard such a statement.

My system is primarily black iron with a dash of 1" Pex-AL-Pex.  You might as well call 1"+ Pex what it is - rigid pipe that uses special connectors.


----------



## arbutus (Nov 13, 2013)

kopeck said:


> Don't use steel wool, it has oil in it and can effect how well the joint flows.
> 
> I've never used tinned flux, I have some old stuff that I'm just finishing up and it works well.  I bought some water soluble flux to replace it and while I was able to use it I don't like it as much as the old stuff.  I found you had to be johnny on the spot with the solder, a hair to much heat and it would burn.  On 3/4" it wasn't terrible, might be less fun on 1 1/4" pipe.  Then again I was using mapp, I bet with propane it would be a bit more forgiving.
> 
> K


 

I didn't know that about steel wool.  I guess I got lucky and didn't run into problems.
I had pinhole leaks develop in most of the joints in 3/4" copper heated with a propane torch when using water soluble flux.  Some were several days later.


----------



## kopeck (Nov 13, 2013)

stee6043 said:


> Pex more reliable than black iron pipe?  Can you explain that further?  I've never heard such a statement.
> 
> My system is primarily black iron with a dash of 1" Pex-AL-Pex.  You might as well call 1"+ Pex what it is - rigid pipe that uses special connectors.



Yup.  Done right I don't see how one could be more reliable then the other.

I've got to say I really don't think Pex is as great as some make it out to be.  I've got a lot of it in my house and to works well but it can be a pain to work with.  I spent hours laying out a nice straight lines of pex only to have it go all loopy on me when warm.  Come to think of it maybe that's more a personal problem.   It is truly amazing how much it expands when warm though!

I like copper, it's just expensive.  It's time tested though and requires very basic tools.

K


----------



## 91LMS (Nov 13, 2013)

one thing that i will add is black iron radiates heat from the water like crazy.  mine was not insulated (can be expensive) and it gave off a lot of heat.  also pulls a fair amount of heat from my fossil boiler when the wood is not in use.


----------



## altmartion (Nov 13, 2013)

I guess reliable was a bad choice of a word. I am not sure what word to use. we have ph, oxygen, sediment and weather all have an affect on iron pipe. plus, pex expands and contracts more in length than girth so it has less of a chance of connections moving where iron is the opposite and over time will have more tendency to leak. don't quote me but I want to say pex has a better flow rate. also less connections. pex can be buried with out issue of rotting. actually code here does not allow us to bury iron pipe. personally I always try to bid a job using copper. I like the looks of it and ease of use but wind up using a ton of pex instead. I am not trying to show off. so please don't think that. this is all just based on experience and opinion. I have cutting and threading gear. power and manual. but choose not to use it. heck, I don't even use it to make a manifold anymore. if I don't buy them I make them out of copper. pex is going to be very expensive as soon as the no lead fittings are mandated. then you will probably see more pvc.


----------



## altmartion (Nov 13, 2013)

kopeck said:


> Yup.  Done right I don't see how one could be more reliable then the other.
> 
> I've got to say I really don't think Pex is as great as some make it out to be.  I've got a lot of it in my house and to works well but it can be a pain to work with.  I spent hours laying out a nice straight lines of pex only to have it go all loopy on me when warm.  Come to think of it maybe that's more a personal problem.   It is truly amazing how much it expands when warm though!
> 
> ...


 actually you can buy sticks of pex  that are 20' plus.


----------



## BoilerMan (Nov 13, 2013)

PEX on a boiler primary loop is a recipe for trouble if you ask me.  I recall reading several posts on PEX melting/splitting in an overheat condition and letting a lot of steam out and ruining some stuff in the process.  I am a tried- and true kind of guy too.  Copper can be art work, and I LOVE COPPER PIPE, done well it makes me stare! 

Black Iron it out of my league, you need a threader and a good tape measure (and WARD fittings).  Quality (not Chinese) Teflon tape and a quality dope, Rectoseal, Gasoila (my personal favorite). 

Nocorrode is my flux of choice, and I still use 50/50 lead solder on all heating piping.  I save the lead-free for domestic, on the larger diameter pipe lead solder flows great, the silver requires more heat and never flows like lead. 

Just my exp.
TS


----------



## woodsmaster (Nov 14, 2013)

Pex should not be used for close to boiler plumbing. It can overheat and burst in a bad situation.


----------



## altmartion (Nov 14, 2013)

BoilerMan said:


> PEX on a boiler primary loop is a recipe for trouble if you ask me.  I recall reading several posts on PEX melting/splitting in an overheat condition and letting a lot of steam out and ruining some stuff in the process.  I am a tried- and true kind of guy too.  Copper can be art work, and I LOVE COPPER PIPE, done well it makes me stare!
> 
> Black Iron it out of my league, you need a threader and a good tape measure (and WARD fittings).  Quality (not Chinese) Teflon tape and a quality dope, Rectoseal, Gasoila (my personal favorite).
> 
> ...


yea, I always use copper from boiler to manifold. then I will switch to pex if it is being used. copper is where your art work is, as you said. i do primarily boilers and plumbing. i absolutely love making a customer say wow, that is incredible, how do you know where everything goes? i try to build everything in my shop and just bring it to the job when ready. i am not a huge pex fan but i do know what job needs it and what one does not.  i like gasoila, but it seems it get "oily" fast. megalok is my preference. i did just buy a small can of "monster blue" (it think it's called) but haven't had a chance to try it yet. i am right next to you with the solder. i have no preference in flux brand, but i do try to only use little containers. i do not like to use contaminated flux. don't know if it matters but it just makes me nervous. a sweat joint never looks as good if you have to fix a leak.


----------



## fuelfarmer (Nov 14, 2013)

I have copper, stainless steel. rubber hose, and black iron pipe. It all works.


----------



## altmartion (Nov 14, 2013)

woodsmaster said:


> Pex should not be used for close to boiler plumbing. It can overheat and burst in a bad situation.


 i have seen this happen a few times but only on wood boilers that are installed poorly. as long as it is used after the manifold it's good. i use it more than i like to but it is hard to sell copper over pex sometimes. especially in my work area. very low income. it is amazing i get the amount of work i do. but i also have a few different tools because of changes over the years in fittings and rings and doing as much radiant as i do. so being so invested in the product i won't turn down a job because of it.


----------



## altmartion (Nov 14, 2013)

fuelfarmer said:


> I have copper, stainless steel. rubber hose, and black iron pipe. It all works.


 beautiful! i don't care how good you can make pex look it can never compare to something like this. nice work!!


----------



## altmartion (Nov 14, 2013)

the first one is just a simple 2 zone baseboard. the second one is was an emergency radiant in slab. did it in two days, that's why it looks a little out of whack. but the owners were still impressed. is there a thread of photo's? i love looking at other peoples work.


----------



## BoilerMan (Nov 14, 2013)

Those look like Z-one valves from Caleffi and Watts manifolds..............  Both my favorites.

Very nice looking work!  Thumbs up to you sir!

TS


----------



## altmartion (Nov 14, 2013)

BoilerMan said:


> Those look like Z-one valves from Caleffi and Watts manifolds..............  Both my favorites.
> 
> Very nice looking work!  Thumbs up to you sir!
> 
> TS


 thanks. i have had great luck with calleffi. i do have trouble with the autofill/ back flow preventer though. always venting and sticking, so i use watts for those as well now


----------



## brad068 (Nov 14, 2013)

fuelfarmer said:


> I have copper, stainless steel. rubber hose, and black iron pipe. It all works.
> 
> Are you sucking thru the (horizontal) swing check valves?


----------



## fuelfarmer (Nov 14, 2013)

Sure am. Is that a bad thing?


----------



## Tennman (Nov 15, 2013)

Thanks all. I'm sure I could get comfortable with soldering. I do know that plumbing all my boiler loop with LOTS of valves, unions, nipples, etc in black iron was hard to get everything the right length. I didn't have any threading capability so was forced to use available length nipples. And after all these years seeing the fancy control rooms like fuelfarmer's, I'm leaning copper because I don't think the final cost will be much different. All my advice, brainstorming, and experience comes from you guys 500-800 miles north, so I really appreciate it. Closest thing to a boiler with storage around me is up the road at Jack Daniels..... and what the neighbors are running back in the hollers.


----------



## salecker (Nov 15, 2013)

Hi Tennman
 If you have the time and aren't rushed you could do the copper and solder.
 When i did my boiler and storage install i had never done anything like that,soldered up a basement suite and a few repairs was the extent of my experience 3/4 was the biggest pipe i had soldered.I used about 50% used fittings and all used pipe for my boiler room.I had over 150 soldered joints and ended up with 2 leaks,both were sealed with a little heat and solder.I bought a Map gas kit and got the B tank.Lot's of cleaning,lot's of care and attention.The shop i got all my stuff from told my wife to be patient because i was saving over 25K in labor.She had been bitching about how long it was taking me,that stopped
 Thomas


----------



## altmartion (Nov 16, 2013)

salecker said:


> Hi Tennman
> If you have the time and aren't rushed you could do the copper and solder.
> When i did my boiler and storage install i had never done anything like that,soldered up a basement suite and a few repairs was the extent of my experience 3/4 was the biggest pipe i had soldered.I used about 50% used fittings and all used pipe for my boiler room.I had over 150 soldered joints and ended up with 2 leaks,both were sealed with a little heat and solder.I bought a Map gas kit and got the B tank.Lot's of cleaning,lot's of care and attention.The shop i got all my stuff from told my wife to be patient because i was saving over 25K in labor.She had been bitching about how long it was taking me,that stopped
> Thomas


 25k in labor. wow, what did you build? can we see pics? I love seeing massive copper jobs.


----------



## Briquetmaker (Nov 16, 2013)

fuelfarmer said:


> I have copper, stainless steel. rubber hose, and black iron pipe. It all works.


Nice install Fuelfarmer. I went with black pipe to go with existing conditions. It sure was harder to do with the crappy import fittings


----------



## Coal Reaper (Nov 16, 2013)

That is a beautiful BI job!


----------



## altmartion (Nov 16, 2013)

Briquetmaker said:


> Nice install Fuelfarmer. I went with black pipe to go with existing conditions. It sure was harder to do with the crappy import fittings
> View attachment 117881


 incredible!! a true work of art!! you should be proud of yourself. so pristine. excellent job. this is magazine worthy, no doubt!! do you mind if I copy this and show it to my employees? they are all cocky and need to see what real craftsmanship looks like. plus I am a member of another site and they would appreciate this.


----------



## salecker (Nov 16, 2013)

altmartion said:


> 25k in labor. wow, what did you build? can we see pics? I love seeing massive copper jobs.


It wasn't all that massive,but we live 100 miles from any trades so travel adds up,and we are up where shop time starts at $80.00.I'm sure the underground lines.and the work in the house would have been in that figure.
 Thomas


----------



## Briquetmaker (Nov 17, 2013)

altmartion said:


> incredible!! a true work of art!! you should be proud of yourself. so pristine. excellent job. this is magazine worthy, no doubt!! do you mind if I copy this and show it to my employees? they are all cocky and need to see what real craftsmanship looks like. plus I am a member of another site and they would appreciate this.



No problem. Tell them I'm a cabinet maker, not a plumber.


----------



## TCaldwell (Nov 17, 2013)

c'mon a cocky plumber, but realistically it is not that difficult with forthought, patience and the right tools. From what I see alot of plumbers dont care what it looks like because its hidden behind sheetrock, and often not caring what it looks like leads to leaks and alot of finger pointing later on. We general contracted a 22,000 sqft house with plaster walls, 15 geowells and gas boilers, the plumber paid for alot of plaster repair, the heating contractor not one leak. Sorry for going off topic, I to appreciate the excellent copper and black iron porn!


----------



## MarkW (Nov 18, 2013)

I'm no pipe fitter, either. That being said, I recently finished piping my system.  I started with BI because of the cost factor(roughly 2-1).  I spent the entire day on the boiler to storage piping before my threader crapped out on me. Ended up doing the storage to house in copper and it went much faster.  I'm kicking myself for not going copper to begin with as I value my time over the $300 or so I might have saved doing it all BI.
Plus, I like the looks of the copper better.


----------



## Tennman (Nov 18, 2013)

Briquetmaker/Andy, OMG.... So.... do you want to do any plumbing on the side when cabinet work gets slow.... Tennessee is very pleasant this time of year with lots of good college football in the area , tours of Jack Daniels, the Space Flight Center. You need to find Gasifer's "Show me your system" thread from several years ago and add yours to it. Are you able to keep that room spotless like that during the burn season? Something tells me you have a lot of happy cabinet customers. Wow. FYI, when my system was up to temp I painted my BI with red Rustoleum like I had seen in Government facilities. So easy since I dried as I brushed it on. Yours may be insulated now. But congrats on a fantastic job!

I'm leaning copper since this will the only storage system either I or my heirs will ever own.


----------



## kopeck (Nov 18, 2013)

MarkW said:


> I'm kicking myself for not going copper to begin with as I value my time over the $300 or so I might have saved doing it all BI. Plus, I like the looks of the copper better.



Yes and Yes! 

K


----------



## Briquetmaker (Nov 18, 2013)

Tennman said:


> Briquetmaker/Andy, OMG.... So.... do you want to do any plumbing on the side when cabinet work gets slow.... Tennessee is very pleasant this time of year with lots of good college football in the area , tours of Jack Daniels, the Space Flight Center. You need to find Gasifer's "Show me your system" thread from several years ago and add yours to it. Are you able to keep that room spotless like that during the burn season? Something tells me you have a lot of happy cabinet customers. Wow. FYI, when my system was up to temp I painted my BI with red Rustoleum like I had seen in Government facilities. So easy since I dried as I brushed it on. Yours may be insulated now. But congrats on a fantastic job!
> 
> I'm leaning copper since this will the only storage system either I or my heirs will ever own.






I have heard Tennessee is very nice. If you were closer I would come to help. I find plumbing to be very interesting, fun to me and always learning something. I did post in Gasifier's thread a while ago and need to show some pics of the tweaks I have been working on. I am putting in a 2000 watt  battery backup to run everything except the oil boiler and a few plumbing changes. Always hard to keep the room clean with the little bit of blow back you get when opening the door. I think a small exhaust fan would help and my new freshly painted gloss black pipes are easier to keep clean.  It is nice painting warm pipes....no drips.  By the way, thanks for your kind words on my workmanship!


----------



## Morgan (Nov 18, 2013)

As far as flux for soldering, my all time favorite is Griffon S-39 Universal.  It is a water soluble red paste, using new pipe and fittings I don't even clean/sand them anymore, just apply flux to the pipe(I don't do the fitting, I like trying to keep as much flux out of the piping as possible), apply heat(get a nice crosstech torch, best on the market in my opinion) and then add the solder, I typically use 95-5 as it makes for a stronger joint.  

Just want to add, there are some nice install pictures in this thread!


----------



## wardk (Nov 22, 2013)

Tennman up here BI is about 1/4 the price of copper so I used BI. I'm a farmer and my buddy is a lawyer . we had never done any boiler work before. Rented a power threader $60 a day , bought way to many fittings as they will take back what you don't use, we used way more than I thought especially unions. It took us about 6 hours to plumb the garn in and plumb the basement up to the manifold. We were done and congratulating each other over a beer the lawyer says maybe we should put a shingle and do this for second job. It's not that hard but I have to admit it's not a work of art like Briquetmakers.


----------



## Ehouse (Nov 23, 2013)

Briquetmaker said:


> Nice install Fuelfarmer. I went with black pipe to go with existing conditions. It sure was harder to do with the crappy import fittings
> View attachment 117881




This makes me drool!  I've only done simple runs for gas lines but it seems to me that a drawback to black iron is that if you have a leak, you have to rework every joint back to the end or a union.  any way around this?


----------



## Briquetmaker (Nov 23, 2013)

Ehouse said:


> This makes me drool!  I've only done simple runs for gas lines but it seems to me that a drawback to black iron is that if you have a leak, you have to rework every joint back to the end or a union.  any way around this?



3 wraps in Teflon and apply Blue BLOCK


----------



## salecker (Nov 23, 2013)

Ehouse said:


> This makes me drool!  I've only done simple runs for gas lines but it seems to me that a drawback to black iron is that if you have a leak, you have to rework every joint back to the end or a union.  any way around this?


The guy who told me how to do my system had me use hemp.I did a test when i was testing my tanks and plugged the openings.I used Teflon tape on some,pipe dope on some,and tape and dope on some.And hemp and pipe dope on the rest.I was testing to 80 psi,the only method that didn't leak was the hemp and dope.All the others stopped leaking with more tightening.I had zero leaks in over 150 threaded fittings.
 The prep takes more time,but the results are worth it.He had me score the threads at a 90 with a sharp chisel,that created a rough surface to grab the hemp strands,you keep winding hemp on till you have the treads covered about as deep as it will thread into the fitting.Then a bit of pipe dope to hold the threads.Tighten as tight as you usually would.
 The hemp absorbs liquid,water,oil,ect and swells.So if you do have a little weepage it will stop.
 I even use it on my trucks and equipment.
 Thomas


----------



## altmartion (Nov 25, 2013)

Morgan said:


> As far as flux for soldering, my all time favorite is Griffon S-39 Universal.  It is a water soluble red paste, using new pipe and fittings I don't even clean/sand them anymore, just apply flux to the pipe(I don't do the fitting, I like trying to keep as much flux out of the piping as possible), apply heat(get a nice crosstech torch, best on the market in my opinion) and then add the solder, I typically use 95-5 as it makes for a stronger joint.
> 
> Just want to add, there are some nice install pictures in this thread!


I guess I don't understand how the solder sticks to the copper if it is not scuffed up. I have done it accidently before and it did hold but it eventually blew apart.  maybe I will try this at my house. I will be adding some in floor radiant. I wouldn't do it at a customers house.


----------

