# Problem with Seton boiler



## wouldchuckwood (Dec 3, 2007)

I installed a Seton W-100 boiler last year, and absolutely loved the way it functioned.  However, as I have discovered, the draft control was not sealing off completely, and the fire never shut down completely.  

When running it early this season, it was off more than it was on, and was going over 48 hours on a load.  Consequently, all that smoldering built up creosote in the fiberglass insulation, and ignited – melting the galvanized skin!

Has anyone had any experience with this?  Are there any Seton owners out there that have had their boiler running for more than year?
Any information would be appreciated.

Thanks.


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## antknee2 (Dec 4, 2007)

Check out some custom gasket work on my Seton .  The gaskets if done properly it will make your boiler behave like a fossil fuel boiler . There are some posts under Greenwood problems , may help you. Also sounds like you are due for some serious heat storage tanks , so you run at full power an burn the fuel completely once or twice a day an no smolder fires in-between. Anthony


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## wouldchuckwood (Dec 4, 2007)

Thanks.  I'll give that a try after (if) I replace the insulation and galvanized skin sheets.  

I ended up casting a refractory brick to cover the ash opening in the firebox, because the ashpan warped and pulled away from the boiler bottom - another major design flaw.  Did you have trouble with that?  

I have this set up in my basement, so I'm a little leary of this happening again.  Luckily, I was around when it touched off.  Otherwise, it would have eliminated the need to heat house.


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## antknee2 (Dec 4, 2007)

This may sound ridiculous but you should always keep enough ash in the fire box to refill the pit after you empty the draw. I will try to find the post on how to find all your leaks . Anthony
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/11100/


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## jklingel (Dec 4, 2007)

Curious. What did Fred Seton say about this? I am considering one of his boilers, too. Too, did you  build it, or did "he/they"?


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## wouldchuckwood (Dec 4, 2007)

jklingel said:
			
		

> Curious. What did Fred Seton say about this? I am considering one of his boilers, too. Too, did you  build it, or did "he/they"?



I haven't heard back from Fred yet.  My boiler was built by Seton.


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## SteveJ (Dec 5, 2007)

I talked with Fred today - he has not mentioned anything about meltdown.

Let me know if you have trouble getting ahold of him - I will relay your incident if you would like.

I definitely would like to know what he says or does about your situation.

Steve


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## wouldchuckwood (Dec 5, 2007)

I spoke with Fred this afternoon.  He is going to get back to me on the replacement parts.

I mentioned the leaking draft door, and he suggested a "grey high-temp gasket material" that comes in sheets from NAPA.  Basically, cut a piece the same dimensions of the door, and bolt it to the door itself using large washers.  Seems like a simple enough thing to do.  So simple, in fact, that I can't believe they don't install these gaskets at the factory - given how crucial air control is.


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## antknee2 (Dec 5, 2007)

very cool , sounds easy enough . If you want to perfect your boiler you will need to check out the entire outer skin , loading door, damper and ash compartment  under negative draft conditions using a inline draft inducer mounted  on your chimney pipe .Tonight I will send some pictures of procedure.


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## SteveJ (Dec 5, 2007)

Anthony,

Will you post the pictures in this thread for testing?

Thanks,
Steve


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## antknee2 (Dec 5, 2007)

SteveJ said:
			
		

> Anthony,
> 
> Will you post the pictures in this thread for testing?
> 
> ...


Yes Steve


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## wouldchuckwood (Dec 5, 2007)

Anthony D said:
			
		

> very cool , sounds easy enough . If you want to perfect your boiler you will need to check out the entire outer skin , loading door, damper and ash compartment  under negative draft conditions using a inline draft inducer mounted  on your chimney pipe .Tonight I will send some pictures of procedure.



I have to replace all the outer skin panels and insulation, so I will be sure to use that high-temp silicon sealant under each panel.  I don't have a draft inducer installed, so I'll have to come up with a different way of checking for leaks.


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## antknee2 (Dec 6, 2007)

With  negative pressure  in your boiler , damper closed and something to generate a small steady stream of smoke  carefully observe the smoke . If it gets sucked in and disappears , you found a leak . My boiler came with the draft inducer in the pic , Great to have for tests and cleaning ash . really cuts down on dust in boiler room . Good luck with your boiler . Anthony


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## rsnider (Dec 13, 2007)

just wanted to know if everthing worked out with the replacement parts for the seton? is the boiler up and running again and did fred send you the parts or have someone else make them for you?


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## rsnider (Dec 18, 2007)

still wondering if the seton is back in action?


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## homebase (Jan 3, 2008)

Anyone here know of anyone that purchased and built a Seton from the Build your own kit he sells?


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## wouldchuckwood (Jan 3, 2008)

Fred sent the parts - the entire outer skin, I believe.  With the holidays, and a bad case of the flu, I haven't had the time to put it all back together yet.  Hopefully, I can tackle it this weekend.  

All I know is that I've spent more on oil in the past three weeks (keeping the thermostat at 63) than I've spent on wood for the entire year!   Between the Seaton, and our wood-fired kitchen cook-stove, I heated this drafty old farmhouse on a single tri-axle load of wood last year - keeping the thermostat at 68.

You'll all hear a loud "WhhHoo" when I fire that puppy up again!


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## rsnider (Jan 3, 2008)

sounds like fred seton took care of the problem for you. hope everything works out. let us know when its up and running again.


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## wouldchuckwood (Jan 24, 2008)

rsnider said:
			
		

> still wondering if the seton is back in action?



Seton Boiler is back in action! I finally got it finished up this past Sunday afternoon - just in time for some really cold weather (for around here anyway). I did not install a draft regulator this time, so it is probably running a little hotter than it needs to. I don't mind a little lost efficiency for a cleaner (and safer) burn. 

It will raise the water temp from 170 to 190 in about 90 seconds while 3 zones (about 1600 sq ft) are running. My oil burner won't do that.

I used the high-temp sealant around all the panels, and made a gasket for the draft door. I still have to make one for the feed door, but it is running much better than before as it is.

When it is running full-tilt, especially when freshly stoked, it will make a "chug-chug" sound like a steam-engine. It would do this before too, but the draft regulator would minimize the effect. Now, the sides of the boiler actually pulsate. Is this due to too much draft, not enough air, or from the "gasification" process? The draft door is set to open just past vertical - about 80 degrees from the closed position.

My thanks to everyone for their input and assistance. It sure is nice to be warm again.


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## SteveJ (Jan 24, 2008)

I talked to Fred about the same issue with the puffing.

He told me that the puffing is a result of not enough air for the recently added fuel.

What I do is crack the feed door open until the pulsing stops until the air intake closes for the first cycle. Usually, I can fully close the door in a couple of minutes and the pulsing stops.

I have only seen my Seton pulse just after stoking with fresh fuel. 

I suggest you talk to Fred to confirm.

I think that Anthony turns on his draft inducer for a couple of minutes to eliminate the puffing - Anthony?

Hope this helps and great to hear you are up and running!!
Steve


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## antknee2 (Jan 24, 2008)

Congratulation's on your boiler restoration  I have the pulsating / puffing problem when I start from scratch . I use some cardboard to help start the fire , my latest way to keep it under control is the same as Steve. I wait by by the load door and watch for top skin of the boiler to start flexing , then I crack open the door just enough to stop the pulsing . The only time I use the draft inducer is when cleaning ash . Wondering what type of draft regulator you had with your original setup ?? Do you have any pics of your boiler without the outer skins ?? You will not believe how much better the Seton boiler operates when air leaks are a thing of the past .. Anthony


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Jan 24, 2008)

Welcome back to our world, where The [fossill] Man is constantly being beaten down, and we'll keep doin' it till we beat him into submission!!

My experience with the GreenWood is about the same . . . on cold starts (generally spring and fall) the GW will puff which is a rich fuel/air mix. Cracking the feed door takes care of that. . .not sure how I'd like that if the GW was in the residence though.
 Supposed to be single digits tonight though, so try to avoid the cold starts ;-) 

Burn on


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## wouldchuckwood (Jan 24, 2008)

Anthony D said:
			
		

> Congratulation's on your boiler restoration  I have the pulsating / puffing problem when I start from scratch . I use some cardboard to help start the fire , my latest way to keep it under control is the same as Steve. I wait by by the load door and watch for top skin of the boiler to start flexing , then I crack open the door just enough to stop the pulsing . The only time I use the draft inducer is when cleaning ash . Wondering what type of draft regulator you had with your original setup ?? Do you have any pics of your boiler without the outer skins ?? You will not believe how much better the Seton boiler operates when air leaks are a thing of the past .. Anthony



I took some pictures with one of the side panels off, but that's it.  Far from a photo-documentary.  For the draft regulator, I just had the basic 8" weighted flapper.  You could adjust the weight between 4 and 8 IWC.  

I'll try cracking the door next time, and see what that does.  There's plenty of draft while it's chugging - no back-puffing, so I'm guessing it's just a little starved for air.  It only does it when it's hot and freshly stoked.  I'll run it past Fred, and see what he has to say.  If it's not hurting anything, it doesn't bother me a bit.  

Thanks again.


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## rsnider (Jan 24, 2008)

whats the draft regulator? are you talking about the intake air or the exhaust air?


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## wouldchuckwood (Jan 24, 2008)

rsnider said:
			
		

> whats the draft regulator? are you talking about the intake air or the exhaust air?



Draft regulator for the exhaust. It's basically just a weighted (adjustable) flap on the end of a T in the stove-pipe. If the chimney draft exceeds the regulator setting, the flap is drawn up, and air is let in thorough the T rather than trying to draw it through the boiler.


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## rsnider (Jan 24, 2008)

i know what your talking about now. did seton suggest this for th boiler?


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## wouldchuckwood (Jan 24, 2008)

rsnider said:
			
		

> i know what your talking about now. did seton suggest this for th boiler?



In the installation manual they recommend one if the draft it too high, in order to increase the efficiency of the boiler. If the heat moves through the boiler too quickly, it won't get adequately absorbed by the water vessel. 

So far, I don't notice any real increase in wood consumption since I eliminated the regulator - even though the exhaust temp is noticeably higher. I'm going to have the chimney lined in April, so I may need to put a regulator back on if the liner greatly increases the draft.


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## Scotty2 (Apr 5, 2008)

After running a Seton 300 for 2 seasons, I'm now in the process of removing all side panels, replacing the thermal blankets, and doing a "MAJOR" creosote removal.
The stove has always smoked, thank goodness it's out in the wood shed, and it's always dripped creosote, around the door and many of the panel seams.
When it stopped working, I started removing cover panels to find the thermal blankets were wet to the touch...must be a combination of moisture and creosote as when we started a bit of mig welding in the back (the flexible exhaust pipe that Fred Seton uses has fallen apart), we started a smoldering fire in the blanket, which went on for hours...eventually I got out the water hose and saturated it as I couldn't get all the side panels off quick enough.
Fixes: I'm told bring my return water temperature up over 100 degrees F, and I like the gasketing some of you have done. Any other suggestions?
Only lucky thing to happen is that this stove is a "take apart", if it had been the Greenwood (based on the Seton), I understand there are a lot of welds I would have had to contend with.
Regards, Scotty


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## antknee2 (Apr 6, 2008)

Seton stove said:
			
		

> After running a Seton 300 for 2 seasons, I'm now in the process of removing all side panels, replacing the thermal blankets, and doing a "MAJOR" creosote removal.
> The stove has always smoked, thank goodness it's out in the wood shed, and it's always dripped creosote, around the door and many of the panel seams.
> When it stopped working, I started removing cover panels to find the thermal blankets were wet to the touch...must be a combination of moisture and creosote as when we started a bit of mig welding in the back (the flexible exhaust pipe that Fred Seton uses has fallen apart), we started a smoldering fire in the blanket, which went on for hours...eventually I got out the water hose and saturated it as I couldn't get all the side panels off quick enough.
> Fixes: I'm told bring my return water temperature up over 100 degrees F, and I like the gasketing some of you have done. Any other suggestions?
> ...



Scotty your not alone when it comes to major creosote problems and saturated insulation lurking in back of Seton style boilers . The problem is almost always related to the intended close to condensing efficiency Incorporated into the original design . If you had a heat load high enough and a way to extract the boilers full potential for a extended period of time with a full load of good wood the boiler will self clean the hidden components in back of the boiler . If this info makes sense to you and you would like me to go into more detail , say the word . All my info is based on experiments with my Seton W-130 . How large of a heat load do you have ? Hope it's huge .  Anthony 
I just read your other post regarding pex pipe  insulation . It sounds like you know both of your problems, pipe size and return temperature .


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## Scotty2 (Apr 6, 2008)

An additional problem is one we brought on ourselves...I couldn't get the Seton 300 to hold a fire overnight and the warehouse was dropping temperature drastically...tho Fred Seton helped to spec PEX size, layouts, stove etc...so we went and installed an on/off switch that allowed me to close the damper, yet have all heat go to the warehouse. Course this cooled the stove waaay down.
Additionally, I was assured the stove would handle mostly green wood better than dry, so I went from burning dry Cedar to 16 month Oak split into 50 lb. chunks...never got a good heat going, possibly already too creosoted up.
So, I'm guessing I need to add a mixing valve?
Regards, Scotty


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## Mainewood (Apr 6, 2008)

Seton stove said:
			
		

> An additional problem is one we brought on ourselves...I couldn't get the Seton 300 to hold a fire overnight and the warehouse was dropping temperature drastically...tho Fred Seton helped to spec PEX size, layouts, stove etc...so we went and installed an on/off switch that allowed me to close the damper, yet have all heat go to the warehouse. Course this cooled the stove waaay down.
> Additionally, I was assured the stove would handle mostly green wood better than dry, so I went from burning dry Cedar to 16 month Oak split into 50 lb. chunks...never got a good heat going, possibly already too creosoted up.
> So, I'm guessing I need to add a mixing valve?
> Regards, Scotty


 :coolsmirk:   Does it get cold enough on the west coast to heat with a Seton?  I have learned from reading the various posts on this forum, that there is a "learning curve" period while operating any wood burning appliance.  The good news is that there are plenty of "learners" in this forum who will be able to help you.  It is always important to insure that the wood burning appliance is not "idling" for extended periods of time.  These types of heaters work best when there is a sufficient demand for heat so that they burn hot.


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## Scotty2 (Apr 6, 2008)

To answer some of the questions raised about our Seton 300 creosote and thermal blanket problems.
Our heat load is massive...in season. That's the first thing I noticed...I really need the thing less than 6 months of the year...and then it won't keep up (as configured).
To hold a fire, I was turning the thermostat off/down in the warehouse at night...I got tired of starting a fire anew each morning. That's when I "stupidly I find" installed an off/on switch at the furnace (much closer to the house than the warehouse), so that I could shut down the draft, yet keep the water circulating to the warehouse regardless of temp (not just the overload temps)...Sigh, how is it possible to shoot yourself in the foot so often?
I'll reiterate for those coming late to this post how thankful I am that this Seton has screwed on side panels...it's basically a take-a-part...and that's exactly what all these types should be. I definitely wasn't provided the necessary info regarding condensation and haven't seen much if any about it in the instruction manual. If this had been a welded panel stove I would have been scre....Regards, Scotty
Picture 1 is the back draft assembly removed from the lower back section of the stove.
Picture 2 is the 8" exhaust plugged
Picture 3 is some of the burned insulation...most was in unrecognizable shape.
Picture 5 shows the creosote on the schedule 40 pipes as seen from the back
Picture 6 (bottom right) is the new draft pipes we're welding together
Note the 3/5 gallon buckets in Pic 4 showing just the start of the cleaning process...not the ash, just the creosote, with the broken flexible exhaust pipes that were used on the draft.


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## antknee2 (Apr 7, 2008)

Wow Scotty those as some scary pics, this is a major wake up call for  anybody with a Seton style boiler to check an clean the  components behind the back refractory wall . If it just soot accumulation it is not as volatile an creosote . It's unbelievable you were able to even light a fire with such restricted draft . Glad no body got hurt or major property damage Anthony


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## Bob Rohr (Apr 7, 2008)

I hope you guys are using smoke detectors and low level CO detectors.  That some dangerous looking stuff.  Stay safe with wood burners, CO detectors are a must!

 hr


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## muleman51 (Apr 7, 2008)

The real question is, how do you prevent this. Those pictures could almost be mine, although mine has never gotten that bad. My Adobe will plug up so that it burn poorly in about two weeks,  'm getting to be a pro at removing the back and cleaning it. Everyone says you need higher return temps, but unless I quit my job during the day and get up in the middle of the night it ain't going to happen. Seton, Adobe, Greenwood we all seem to be in the same boat.


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## Scotty2 (Apr 7, 2008)

Fortunately our Seton 300 is in a free standing 3 bay building that we use to store wood for the stove...otherwise I would have removed it from the home/whatever some time ago.
Regards, Scotty


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## Bob Rohr (Apr 7, 2008)

muleman51 said:
			
		

> The real question is, how do you prevent this. Those pictures could almost be mine, although mine has never gotten that bad. My Adobe will plug up so that it burn poorly in about two weeks,  'm getting to be a pro at removing the back and cleaning it. Everyone says you need higher return temps, but unless I quit my job during the day and get up in the middle of the night it ain't going to happen. Seton, Adobe, Greenwood we all seem to be in the same boat.




There is always a cause for an ugly mess like that.  I doubt it is inherent to the design of the appliance??

It could be one, or a combination of events.  Green or wet wood is a common cause.  Draft problems too much or not enough.  Mainly it is caused by running them to cold.  You MUST know what that return temperature is and have a means to adjust it.  Manual balance isn't very practical.  Really a 3 way thermostatic mix valve is a simple and effective fix. It assures the boiler stays warm enough regardless of the loads.  Although when it starts opening to bypass more flow back to the boiler, you are probably running out of available power to meet the heat load. The 3 way will prioritize the boiler protection and provide less to the building load.   A simple strap on aquastat that turns off the pump until the fire catches up works, but does lead to cycling.  Variable speed injection, delta T circulators are a few more methods.

 hr


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## Mainewood (Apr 7, 2008)

master of sparks said:
			
		

> muleman51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It sounds to me like there is a greater heat demand than the boiler can keep up with. What are you heating?  How many sq. feet?  Is it well insulated?  You may need to consider heating less area so the boiler will operate at temperatures necessary to burn clean.


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## muleman51 (Apr 9, 2008)

I am heating a 1920 four square farm house. It is very tight all new windows and reinsulated. We only heat the basement and first floor, the upstairs stays warm enough.  The basement is heated with fintube on zone valves, there is a zone valve on the heat exchanger for the first floor. The main house is 30x30 with a new 12x24 sunroom on the south this has in floor heat, all new very well insulated. I have begun to collect some data, don't know if it will be helpful or not. I'm trying to write down the return and supplly temps and flue temps when I am by the boiler. I really don't think the boiler gassifise but I really don't know how you would tell. I didn't check the tubes in the last week. Its been in the 30-40 range so demand isn't very great.  Seems to me like my flue temps are plenty high between 5-600 when its burning. Anybody want to buy the boiler it is a great science project if you are so inclined, I'm loosing my interest fast.


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## KZIEBARTH (Apr 9, 2008)

Muleman, I may be interested in your boiler as a science project.   Send me an email.  I feel bad about all the trouble you have had with the boiler.  Your pain comes through pretty clear in your posts.

I have no answers for you but I like to experiment with things and do some fabricating as well.

Kevin


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## Mainewood (Apr 9, 2008)

Seton stove said:
			
		

> Fortunately our Seton 300 is in a free standing 3 bay building that we use to store wood for the stove...otherwise I would have removed it from the home/whatever some time ago.
> Regards, Scotty



It looks like there is a greater heat demand than the boiler can keep up with. What are you heating?  How many sq. feet?  Is it well insulated?  You may need to consider heating less area so the boiler will operate at temperatures necessary to burn clean.


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## muleman51 (Apr 11, 2008)

Kevin, if you interested give me a call. 507-251-0901 Where are you in MN? I'm in Zumbrota.


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## Scotty2 (Apr 11, 2008)

Regarding the Seton 300 with the creosote problems...
An interesting side note.
It was suggested I consider an 'on demand' propane fired inline water heater to keep the temp up over night...$600 for a good one, plus tank and installation costs.
Any thoughts?


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