# Woodburners and generators



## My Oslo heats my home (Sep 4, 2012)

How many woodburners also have a generator(s)


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## Highbeam (Sep 4, 2012)

The wood burning stove won't keep the freezer cold or the lights on so I use an interlock to backfeed the panel from my 3500 watt 220 volt genset. It runs 12 hours on just over 4 gallons but I always shut the genset off at night before bed.


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## Thomas Anderson (Sep 4, 2012)

Are you asking about co-generators?... i.e. a wood stove that also produces electricity?  It's something I'm highly interested in, but there are no commercial solutions I'm aware of.  If you want to experiment, you can buy some thermoelectric generator chips which use the Seebeck Effect to create a voltage across a temperature gradient.  You can buy TECs here: http://www.customthermoelectric.com/powergen.html.  You would need to wire them in a combination of series and parallel strings and attach them to a charge controller in order to charge a battery.  It's possible you could create tens or even hundreds (if you've got the cash up front for that many TECs) of watts continuously as long as your stove is producing heat.  If you have a sufficient battery bank and use electricity efficiently, that can indeed hold you over during a power loss.


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## BrowningBAR (Sep 4, 2012)

I do not have a generator. I will within the next few years, but not at this point. Also, I went with three free standing stoves specifically as inserts are hindered more from power outages.


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## BrotherBart (Sep 4, 2012)

Only four.


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## fossil (Sep 4, 2012)

Thomas Anderson said:


> Are you asking about co-generators?....


 
I'm pretty sure that when the OP uses the term "woodburner" he's talking about people, not appliances.  Rick


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## Thomas Anderson (Sep 4, 2012)

I thought so too, Rick, but the first reply used it the other way. In any event, a co-generating wood stove would solve lots of problems.

My own setup is that I'm off-the-grid.


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## My Oslo heats my home (Sep 4, 2012)

yeah, I was thinking along the lines of sustainability. Having no power and no heat. was curious how many folks that burned also had a generator or another way to survive when the crap hit the fan. Ive been wanting a generator for years but it's one of those purchases my wife doesn't see the same way I do.


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## jjs777_fzr (Sep 4, 2012)

I own a small Crafstman 750Watt gas generator.  I've used it for the past 25+ years.  I guess that little Kawasaki motor was built right.
Quiet too.  It's just enough to run lights, tv, and the fridge.


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## Thomas Anderson (Sep 4, 2012)

I highly recommend a small camp-sized propane generator. They cost just a few hundred bucks and put out about 1200-1500 Watts. They're also immune to spills, start right up in the dead of winter, don't get gummed up if not used in awhile, burn very clean, and are very reliable. They're also convenient if you already have propane for cooking, etc. This is the one I've got: http://www.buy.com/prod/2000-watt-propane-generator/219322954.html.  There are also some bigger ones of the same type that put out up to 4000 watts.


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## Backwoods Savage (Sep 4, 2012)

Not to side track this thread, but welcome to the forum Thomas.

As for generator, yes we have one but it has nothing to do with burning wood. We can heat the house with no fan at all so if power goes out, we would run the generator for water pump and refrigeration.


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## Highbeam (Sep 4, 2012)

Really now, a genset can be a 300$ so it's totally worth buying for convenience and to avoid wasting the freezer/fridge. We use an antenna for our TV so we get full television entertainment when the power is out.

The independent minded wood burners that are frequent on this site also appreciate gardens for food and large accumulations of supplies like meat in the freezer. Losing that freezer can mean the loss of a significant amount of effort.


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## Backwoods Savage (Sep 4, 2012)

Right on Highbeam.


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## My Oslo heats my home (Sep 4, 2012)

Highbeam said:


> The independent minded wood burners that are frequent on this site also appreciate gardens for food and large accumulations of supplies like meat in the freezer. Losing that freezer can mean the loss of a significant amount of effort.


 
I think along the lines of your response HB but It's not as easy for a proactive person to persuade a reactive person until crap does come around. We also stock the freezer for 6 mos periods and would hate to see that perish.


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## Thomas Anderson (Sep 4, 2012)

Alternatively, if you don't want to deal with the fuel and maintenance of a generator, you could connect up a charge controller, battery bank, and inverter either to the whole house or specific loads such as your freezer.  I.e. an uninterruptible power supply (but one you can build much more inexpensively than those commercial solutions).

People stage fire drills in order to prepare for fires.  Why not stage a power loss drill in order to prepare for a power loss?  That might be persuasive.


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## My Oslo heats my home (Sep 4, 2012)

Thomas Anderson said:


> People stage fire drills in order to prepare for fires. Why not stage a power loss drill in order to prepare for a power loss? That might be persuasive.


 
We have had our share of power outages with adverse situations, shes been through it with me. I'm going to have to be a little more naggy about this, ususally when the subject does come up it goes away as fast as it started.


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## jotul8e2 (Sep 4, 2012)

We have two wood burning stoves - one for the house, one for the shop.  And two generators - one 16.5 kw to power our all-electric house, and a 25 year old Craftsman 4kw, because you never know, the battery in the big one may not be charged.  Yes, those Kawasaki motors were some of the finest small engines ever made.

Actually, the battery in the big one WAS dead last time I needed it!  I jump started it from the lawn tractor.  I run my generators a couple hours once every quarter to keep the corrosion from building up on the armature.


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## jeff_t (Sep 4, 2012)

We have had one since 2003, when we had a little blackout for a few days in August. It's a 10k portable, and will run the central a/c if nothing else is on. It will handle more than that, but not through the 220 feeding into the interlock. It has a 20 amp breaker. I can run a couple of extension cords for lights, fridge, etc to the other outlets on the generator. The only downside is that it is a gas sucking monster, especially under that kind of load. I always try to find out how widespread the outage is, and how long it might be down. Gas can be an issue. I also have a 4.5k that sips fuel. I have considered swapping it for a propane unit like Thomas suggested. I'd be able to run it off the 250 gal tank, as well. I have also thought about selling them both and getting a standby. A friend sells them on the side and can get me a pretty impressive price.


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## Blue Vomit (Sep 4, 2012)

My neighbor has a generator. When the power goes out, he becomes Ned Flanders and I become Homer Simpson. DOH!


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## blwncrewchief (Sep 4, 2012)

BrotherBart said:


> Only four.


 
I was going to refrain from replying but since you did I am down to 4. I sold off 4 in the last year or so.


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## simple.serf (Sep 4, 2012)

Picking up our MEP-002 on a M116A2 trailer this weekend. Also have 4 other generators, and take care of 5 or 6 industrial gensets gas, propane, Natgas, and diesel.

Yeah, I like generators.

My concern here is our severe winter storms, we are located in the main lake effect snow belt for a ski resort. 4 or 5 feet in 8 hours isn't uncommon, and I would like to be able to keep the deep freezers, well pump, septic pump, electric stove, fridge, dishwasher, fans, chicken lights in the barn, and some lights on all at the same time  (maybe I need the MEP 005....). Fuel is supplied by a 275 gallon fuel oil tank, and a 110 gal farm tank.

I also have 6 t105's, a charge controller, inverter, panels and some other cool stuff for monitoring power coming in from the sun (doesn't do much for the winter storm, though).


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## maverick06 (Sep 4, 2012)

I have 2, both inverter generators. With an insert I get no heat without the blower moving... the refrigerators warm up, and the sump pump is worthless without it. a few days without power gets old really fast.... even if you have a generator, but its worse if you dont have one. Because then you are without power, a refrigerator with $600 worth of rotting food, and a flooded basement. I can also run my whole house fan with my generator!

It pays for its self fast. and buying your self one will guarantee trouble free utility service for a few years.


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## Ashful (Sep 4, 2012)

Our house was plumbed and wired for a generator by the PO, but as in their words, "the power never really went out, so we never got around to installing one."  A buried 500 lb. propane tank, gas lines, and electric are all installed, but I could see myself easily getting _way _too carried away in selecting a generator.



Highbeam said:


> The independent minded wood burners that are frequent on this site also appreciate gardens for food and large accumulations of supplies like meat in the freezer. Losing that freezer can mean the loss of a significant amount of effort.


 
We have significant accumulations in our freezer.  My wife spends a decade putting stuff in, and it never comes out.  When we moved last year, I found items in the bottom of the basement freezer chest that I clearly remember my wife placing there when we bought the thing 8 years prior.  I dug up and tossed cookies (pun intended) baked and frozen by my wife's grandmother, who passed away more years ago than any cookie should be kept.  

For you "the end is coming!" folks with gasoline powered generators, what's your plan when the gas stations can't pump?  Can't imagine those little toys can run indefinitely, with the gasoline you have stored in your garage.


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## Treacherous (Sep 4, 2012)

My father has a late 80's Coleman Powermate 1750 with a Kawasaki motor.  It still runs great to this day.

I have a couple Honda EU2000i's with extended run marine tanks.  Since the warranty on second unit will expire at the end of the year I am going to convert them to tri-fuel so I can use propane in them.



jjs777_fzr said:


> I own a small Crafstman 750Watt gas generator. I've used it for the past 25+ years. I guess that little Kawasaki motor was built right.
> Quiet too. It's just enough to run lights, tv, and the fridge.


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## firecracker_77 (Sep 4, 2012)

I have a Generac 8k and a Woodstock DV gas model.  Both work as long as the natural gas flows.  I have water issues, so I have to have a Generac to run the sump pumps.  It's nice to know there's heat whether I'm around or not for the pipes.


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## firecracker_77 (Sep 4, 2012)

My Oslo heats my home said:


> I think along the lines of your response HB but It's not as easy for a proactive person to persuade a reactive person until crap does come around. We also stock the freezer for 6 mos periods and would hate to see that perish.


 
I have been slapped upside the head by reality enough times that I don't scoff at people who warn of potential disasters.  A deep freeze and dry food goods are a great idea as is extra water storage.


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## pen (Sep 4, 2012)

I picked up a 5,500 watt generator after being w/out for 3 days last year. Bought it by waiting at Home Depot as a tractor trailer loaded with 27 pulled into the lot. The scene was a feeding frenzy at the customer service desk, which nearly turned into me being devoured when I threw the money down and said "I'll take 2 of those" Mother in law who is too far away to share one, but close enough that she gets the same storms, was without too and the second one was for her.

Since then, I've yet to need to use it. But, it's getting use being loaned out to local family members. It's just another tool waiting in the shop for it's day to be the one needed. I look at it similarly to being several years ahead on wood; being prepared matters.

Not sure what the original thread intent/direction was here, but where things are going it isn't fitting in the hearth room. Moving this over to the Inglenook.

pen


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## Jack Straw (Sep 5, 2012)

I have made the decision to roll the dice and not have a generator. We have been in this house for close to 20 years and the power has never been out for more than 24 hours. We have the wood stove, a freeze-proof faucet on the pond (to flush the toilet) and we keep some bottled water on hand for drinking. I figure we have about $300 worth of food in the freezer and if we have an extended power outage it wouldn't be a big lose. If the power goes out more than a day, we will put the frozen food in the refrigerator and start eating!

Edit....my neighbor has several generators and I can always borrow 1, so that is also a factor!


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## firefighterjake (Sep 5, 2012)

My Oslo heats my home said:


> yeah, I was thinking along the lines of sustainability. Having no power and no heat. was curious how many folks that burned also had a generator or another way to survive when the crap hit the fan. Ive been wanting a generator for years but it's one of those purchases my wife doesn't see the same way I do.


 
If and when you're on Day 4 or 5 without heat, running water, etc. she may change her mind about a generator. I purchased my generator back in 1998 . . . and I was lucky to find a generator. It's only a small one, but it can run a few simple appliances to make cooking and living a bit easier. Turned out to be a good investment . . . we didn't get our power restored until 14 or so days after the storm . . . and to make matters worse I was right in middle of playing Tombraider at the time . . . very inconvenient (I also didn't have any alternative heat source other than a small, smelly kerosene space heater that I borrowed.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_ice_storm_of_1998


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## Thomas Anderson (Sep 5, 2012)

It's important to understand normalcy bias and how it tends to keep us from preparing for likely hardships.  Just because something hasn't happened in your short experience doesn't mean it's not a high risk in the future.  E.g. my house hasn't burned down in all my life, but that doesn't keep me from buying home insurance.


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## firefighterjake (Sep 5, 2012)

Thomas Anderson said:


> It's important to understand normalcy bias and how it tends to keep us from preparing for likely hardships. Just because something hasn't happened in your short experience doesn't mean it's not a high risk in the future. E.g. my house hasn't burned down in all my life, but that doesn't keep me from buying home insurance.


 
And that's why I'm preparing for the zombie apocalypse.  

All kidding aside . . . this makes sense . . . preparing for things that have a high probability or risk of happening -- i.e. fire, CO issue, loss of power, etc.

It is my personal belief that some folks go a little overboard by preparing for the end times, zombies, etc. . . . but if they're not hurting anyone . . . it's their money and their time, right?


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## firecracker_77 (Sep 5, 2012)

Thomas Anderson said:


> It's important to understand normalcy bias and how it tends to keep us from preparing for likely hardships. Just because something hasn't happened in your short experience doesn't mean it's not a high risk in the future. E.g. my house hasn't burned down in all my life, but that doesn't keep me from buying home insurance.


 
I am well aware of normalcy bias.  It explains the sheep mentality of many people. 

It's always a good idea to have thought through all sorts of contingencies whether or not they come to pass.  A whole house gerator is better in my opinion as you don't have to deal with electrical cords....especially dangerous when water is involved.


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## Jags (Sep 5, 2012)

One little one:


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## ironpony (Sep 5, 2012)

Jags, not sure if weve had this conversation before. I have one of those in my garage, rescued it from the scrap yard, 100 bucks. it is only 5kw 3 phase or 3kw single phase if I remember correctly.
actually tired of looking at it, might wind up in the scrap yard anyway.
we have 4 20 kw diesels at the shop for temp power on jobsites and many 5-10 kw also,  keep a 5kw at the house.


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## Jags (Sep 5, 2012)

It was a 3000 watt 3 phase military genny.  It is now a 10000 watt single phase.  1942 - runs like a top.


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## jharkin (Sep 5, 2012)

We have a 3200 watt gasoline unit i bought to be able to keep the sump going if we loose power during a rain event like 2 years ago. For good measure i wired it to a transfer switch so i can run the fridge, freezer, septic pump, one light/power circuit in the kitchen/bath, and boiler for DHW. I have the internet stack on a small ups so we can keep internet and phone online +rechanrge portables protected from dirty genny power.

I treat it as a temporary backup only, and the few times ive needed it we ran it just a couple hours a day to take showers, make cofee, and keep the fridge cool. Wood for heat, Camp stove to cook,candles/rechargeable flashlights for light, books and games for entertainment. If its a snow outage you can put frozen food outside as well to stretch the usage.

I keep 5 gal of gas on hand treated and rotated since we know if the whole town is out the gas station pumps will be also. i run the gen every 3 months and change oil/filters/plug yearly.A lot of folks who buy these things after a hurricane then forget them for years get a nastysuprise when the day comes they need it.


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## Vincent (Sep 5, 2012)

We got a 5500 watt Porter Cable generator. My wife also, didn't think we needed one. I sure felt pretty smart when our electric was off for a week this summer. She sure didn't complain much when she was sitting in front of that fan staying cool.


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## velvetfoot (Sep 7, 2012)

I have 5, and each one has its own story.
The larger Generac 10 kW I use for the well pump.
I've told myself I'm standardizing on the 2 kW Honda inverter for small loads.
Although...I really have a soft spot for the 1000 watt Harbor Freight little 2 stroke generator.


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## Shadow&Flame (Sep 7, 2012)

Yep...I have 4 of them.  Its always nice to have a backup for the freezers and lights.  Too many storms not to have at least one.


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## daveswoodhauler (Sep 7, 2012)

We have one, and after the Ice Storm of 2008 I installed a hook up switch right to my panel. The power goes out, I plug in the Gen, flip the safety switch, and just select the breakers I want to be powered.
After 8 days of no power and well water in 2008, no way I am going to go through that again.


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## thewoodlands (Sep 7, 2012)

Yes we do, we bought it before the big Ice Storm of 98. New carb on it so it's set to roll.

zap


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## Thomas Anderson (Sep 7, 2012)

jharkin said:


> I keep 5 gal of gas on hand treated and rotated since we know if the whole town is out the gas station pumps will be also. i run the gen every 3 months and change oil/filters/plug yearly.A lot of folks who buy these things after a hurricane then forget them for years get a nastysuprise when the day comes they need it.



This is why I like propane.  No worries about letting it sit between uses.  Starts right up again.


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## Flatbedford (Sep 7, 2012)

I just got a 3500W Mikita unit from a friend this summer. It was making low voltage for him and he replaced it and _gave_ it to me. I spent about 10 minutes messing with the governor and now its fine. I don't have a transfer switch yet, but I made a couple long 12/3 cords with quad boxes on them that I can drag into the house.


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## My Oslo heats my home (Sep 8, 2012)

Thomas Anderson said:


> This is why I like propane.  No worries about letting it sit between uses.  Starts right up again.


What's the comparison of gas to propane on fuel consumption.  Say 5 gallons of gas to how much propane?


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## MasterMech (Sep 8, 2012)

My Oslo heats my home said:


> What's the comparison of gas to propane on fuel consumption. Say 5 gallons of gas to how much propane?


Not sure on the exact fuel consumption but most have comparable run times to 5 gal gas units using a 20lb BBQ tank and that's roughly 4 - 4.5 gallons of juice. 

I do know that a generator converted to run on propane may not run at 100% capacity since LP doesn't make as much power in a converted gasoline engine.


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## Thomas Anderson (Sep 8, 2012)

I don't know of a direct comparison, but my little propane genny sips less than 1lb per hour under load.  Also, propane (and NG) is much less expensive in a BTU-equivalence measure.  It's comparable to like $1.50/gallon of gas.


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## Flatbedford (Sep 8, 2012)

Thomas Anderson said:


> ... propane (and NG) is much less expensive in a BTU-equivalence measure. It's comparable to like $1.50/gallon of gas.


 
Not where I live. I regularly pay over $5/gallon in the winter here.


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## Thomas Anderson (Sep 8, 2012)

Let's look at the numbers....

  91,500 BTUs / gallon of propane
115,000 BTUs / gallon of gasoline

$2.50 / gallon of propane on my last fill-up in April
$3.82 / gallon of gasoline national average

2.7 cents / MBTU propane
3.3 cents / MBTU gasoline

So gasoline is 22% more expensive for the same amount of energy.  I've never seen propane at $5/gal, though I have seen it for under $2/gal.  My best advice is to get a large tank and fill up in the off season.  No stabilizers needed.


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## Flatbedford (Sep 8, 2012)

Here's an April 2012 bill. Just under $5.00/gal.


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## Thomas Anderson (Sep 8, 2012)

Yikes!  How were you paying $4.82 when I was paying $2.50 just a state apart?  Have you compared other companies?  Maybe you're just getting ripped off.


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## BrotherBart (Sep 8, 2012)

Thomas Anderson said:


> Yikes! How were you paying $4.82 when I was paying $2.50 just a state apart?


 
Simple. Since propane is a byproduct of processing natural gas and you live in a state that is punching gas wells like crazy, then...


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## Thomas Anderson (Sep 8, 2012)

BrotherBart said:


> Simple. Since propane is a byproduct of processing natural gas and you live in a state that is punching gas wells like crazy, then...



It's not that simple... if it were, then the opportunities for arbitrage would be ginormous.  I might buy a truck myself and drive it to the next state.  I think either your company is gouging you or there are regulations and taxes at work.  Also, propane prices haven't moved here much since gas started to be drilled.  Maybe it has partially made us immune to inflation in that sector, but again, you're only a state away, so arbitrage should solve that for you.


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## BrotherBart (Sep 8, 2012)

The NY statewide average this month is $2.69 a gallon for deliveries of 1,100 gallons or more. Not including tank rental charges.


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## pen (Sep 8, 2012)

Also, try getting that propane genny started in the teens or single digits. Don't keep it in a cold garage.  There is a reason that most propane generators require electric run to them, it's for the carb heater. If I were to get one, it would be a multi fuel unit that I could start off of gasoline.

I grew up with propane vehicles in the family (from the early 70's right up until the early 2000's) What was always nice is that they required an oil change every 30 or 40k miles, and even then the oil looked like new. What wasn't so nice was starting them up in cold weather.

The other thing to consider is the cost of keeping enough propane around for a few days of usage. The price of a 40lb cylinder anymore will about put one through the roof. If the power is out, I have a much better chance of finding a place to get gasoline than I do propane.

pen


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## Flatbedford (Sep 8, 2012)

Crazy isn't it. Propane is big bucks in my area. My Fireview cut fuel costs by $2000 the first year we had it.


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## Ashful (Sep 8, 2012)

Thomas Anderson said:


> Yikes! How were you paying $4.82 when I was paying $2.50 just a state apart? Have you compared other companies? Maybe you're just getting ripped off.


 
It's also above $4/gal in our area, and I'm not even a state away.  Most companies around here will charge a very different rate, depending on whether you're using it as a primary heat source or not.


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## BrotherBart (Sep 8, 2012)

18 years ago people cut in a driveway and ruined my whole day by building a house on the place next to me. They put in propane heat instead of an electric heat pump like most everybody here has for A/C and heat. Then immediately started trying to get all the rest of us to petition for a gas line to be run here. We all just looked at them and said "Are you nuts? Know what that 11 mile pipe would cost?". For 18 years I have listened to that backup bell on the propane truck as it backs up that long driveway and alternately grin (they are a pain in the butt) and cringe. Then toss another split in the stove.

And they live in six 1/2 acres of trees. Any down or cut they let rot.


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## My Oslo heats my home (Sep 8, 2012)

In a case where a emergency exists I wouldn't really consider the cost so much, however you look at it it has to be done. My consumption concerns were more for run time for each type of fuel and what is available when refilling is needed. I know LP needs no electricity for filling but gasoline does. And LP doest get stale over time like gas. There's a lot of pros and cons.


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## Retired Guy (Sep 9, 2012)

$4.85 propane was too much for us. Put in a standard electric water heater and cut cost in half.


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## MasterMech (Sep 9, 2012)

My Oslo heats my home said:


> In a case where a emergency exists I wouldn't really consider the cost so much, however you look at it it has to be done. My consumption concerns were more for run time for each type of fuel and what is available when refilling is needed. I know LP needs no electricity for filling but gasoline does. And LP doest get stale over time like gas. There's a lot of pros and cons.


 
Most filling stations for LP are electric powered unless it's mounted on a truck.  While it may be technically possible to fill a tank without electricity, I'm betting there's a good chance that the business that sells LP in small quantities isn't going to be open during a power outage.  Gas stations around here have hookups for generators to run the pumps. 

Your best advantage for going LP is going to be that you can sore large quantities of it on-site if you get a large tank installed.  100 gallon will run a 10Kw genset for a long time before it needs refilling.  Plus you could plumb in for cooking purposes as well.

Pen's point on LP being a b*^&$ in very cold weather is well made.  I do however know of several LP fueled home standy-by generators around here that do not have trouble starting in our typical winter temps.  Maybe because they have power to the carb heater right to the point of when they are needed.  I agree that a portable unit like the ones that have been popping up in every catalog lately could be a challenge however.


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## jharkin (Sep 9, 2012)

Been a long time since I had a gas grill, I take it long gone are the days they put the tank on a scale and plug in the filling hose to fill & weigh?

If I was going to run a entire house fixed backup I would get a natgas unit and have it plumbed into our city gas. Probably the cheapest runtime of all (discounting upfront), but we don't have power outages any where near often enough to make that investment worth it. Even if we had 5x the outages it wouldn't be worth it.


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## Thomas Anderson (Sep 9, 2012)

What are you guys talking about, I can start my propane genny when its in the single digits.  Cold weather is not a problem at all.  Diesel doesn't start in cold temps, but propane is fine.    Propane boils at -44*F.  I don't know the exact rate of consumption, but its under 1 gal/hr.  So I could run my generator for like 10 days straight off of my 100 gal tank if I needed to.  Good luck storing (and stabilizing) that much gasoline.


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## begreen (Sep 9, 2012)

We are charged about 4.36/gallon here. But if I drive up north, I can get it for about $2.50. It's called a captive market.


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## Thomas Anderson (Sep 9, 2012)

begreen said:


> We are charged about 4.36/gallon here. But if I drive up north, I can get it for about $2.50. It's called a captive market.



If I were in that situation, i'd call a company up north and tip the driver $30 or whatever it took for them to drive me down a delivery.  Or if I were really enterprizing, i'd start a competing propane business there and undercut the competition.


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## begreen (Sep 9, 2012)

Sure. $30 tip and $130 for the roundtrip fuel. That just killed the incentive. Ain't gonna happen.

We had a local company set up a competitive business for just this reason. They had cheaper prices for about a year. Now they match Suburban Propane's price exactly. So much for competition.


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## Thomas Anderson (Sep 9, 2012)

That's some funky math if the price is almost half as much with the distant company.


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## MasterMech (Sep 9, 2012)

jharkin said:


> Been a long time since I had a gas grill, I take it long gone are the days they put the tank on a scale and plug in the filling hose to fill & weigh?


 
I know 2 places that still fill that way but the fill pump is electric at both of them.


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## begreen (Sep 9, 2012)

Thomas Anderson said:


> That's some funky math if the price is almost half as much with the distant company.


 
More like funky facts. Suburban Propane is a rip. Cenex up north is quite reasonable. Highbeam pays a lot less than us too. I wish they broke into the Seattle/Tacoma market, but they seem more rurally focused. FWIW, gasoline prices are also about 30-50 cents/gal higher, mainly because the market will bear it. Sucks, but that's the facts mam.


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## MasterMech (Sep 10, 2012)

begreen said:


> More like funky facts. Suburban Propane is a rip. Cenex up north is quite reasonable. Highbeam pays a lot less than us too. I wish they broke into the Seattle/Tacoma market, but they seem more rurally focused. FWIW, gasoline prices are also about 30-50 cents/gal higher, mainly because the market will bear it. Sucks, but that's the facts mam.


 
That's a hoot.  3000+ miles away and Suburban is still considered a "rip".   And I've yet to talk to an even halfway satisfied customer.


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## nate379 (Sep 10, 2012)

4k gas Generac.
Sure the stove heats the house just fine, but having some lights, TV, etc is kinda nice too.

Natural gas one would be handy in the fact that its relatively cheap, but if we ever had an earthquake that shut the lines down (could happen) then it'd be useless.

I'm keeping my eye open for a decent priced diesel unit as I have a diesel tank at home (275 gals) for other equipment.


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## FrankMA (Sep 11, 2012)

I just bought a Honda EM6500SX because I refuse to deal with no water and no electricity again. I have a well so no power means no water. I lost power 2X last year, once for 4 days and then for 6 days as well as losing power for 2 -3 days at a time in previous years. Honda was running a decent promo discount offer plus zero percent financing for 18 months. I got the generator and a 10 circuit transfer switch for $600 off of list which is pretty much internet prices as I began looking on-line several weeks. I bought from a local Honda power equipment dealer which is really what I wanted to do anyway (support local small business). Just knowing that I will have power if the grid goes down is a very comforting feeling. It's not too often that you feel good about spending a decent chunk of $$$ but the peace of mind is well worth it.


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## velvetfoot (Sep 11, 2012)

Have you made sure the generator will start your well pump?  I was surprised at how much juice my pump required.


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## Thomas Anderson (Sep 11, 2012)

That's one of the problems with using a generator to run your household directly.  It needs to be big enough for the biggest load, e.g. starting your well pump, but that often makes it over-sized for the average load, and thus it burns through fuel too fast.  It's going to be a little more expensive, but putting a battery bank between your generator and your house would allow you to right-size your generator and also not need to run it as often.  I.e. just charge up the batteries and run the generator again when they get low.


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## BrotherBart (Sep 11, 2012)

A 5000 watt, 3250 watt and two 800 watt 2 strokes are it for here. And we never have a year lately without a week long outage and a few day or two ones. I keep twenty gallons of gas on hand and in the spring start using it in the tractor and mowers and saws. Come Fall, dump the rest in the cars and stock up again with fresh. In a month or so I will refill the two 25 gallon water tanks with filtered water and the beat goes on.

The base load for the house is always under 2 KW so the 3250 can run it forever on a little gas. When I need the extra punch I fire the big boy for a little while. The rain barrel off the gutters handles flushing water just fine. Unless it is frozen then the jugs in the basement come into play.

We had a six hour outage last week. Tree limb fell on a line. Good timing. It was on the same day of the month that I fire all of the gennies and let'em run for a bit.


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## FrankMA (Sep 11, 2012)

I'm having my transfer box installed this Friday so I have not actually tested the generator yet. It's rated at 7000 start up watts and 6500 continuous watts (5500 watts if longer than 30 minutes of continuous heavy use) which should be more than enough to power the well pump, furnace for hot water, fridge, freezer, some lights and intermittent use appliances. I powered a TV and several lights/appliances with a small 1000 watt inverter generator during our 6 day outage back in October 2011. I can always alter my use patterns if needed but just having back up power (and knowing it!) is a real good thing.


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## FrankMA (Sep 11, 2012)

> That's one of the problems with using a generator to run your household directly. It needs to be big enough for the biggest load, e.g. starting your well pump, but that often makes it over-sized for the average load, and thus it burns through fuel too fast.


 
That's one reason why I went with a Honda. The unit has an intelligent voltage regulation control that automatically throttles up or down to accommodate the load that is being placed on the motor. It delivers very clean, stable  power which for me is a must. I work from my home (my office is in my house) so I need to know that my computer and other sensitive electronic devices won't get fried.

I've owned many Honda products in the past and can attest to their durability and reliability when it really matters the most. It's kind of funny when you see posts on various forums stating that this engine runs "like a Honda" or has many features that are found "on a Honda". The cost differnece between owning a genuine Honda product or a knock off is marginal if you amortize it over several years.


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## velvetfoot (Sep 11, 2012)

I was surprised that my 7500 base, 10000 w surge Generac takes a big hit when the well pump, which is down 450', comes on.  It's not like the pump was spec'd for for startup current or anything..it came with the house.  I measured the startup current once, and it was real big.


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## BrotherBart (Sep 11, 2012)

Having the firepower to just keep on keeping on when the power goes out is a big waste as far as I am concerned. Good grief. We are a bunch of people that burn pieces of very large weeds to heat our houses. We have two legs on the poles coming in here. One virtually never goes out and ours does when a squirrel farts. A guy on the one that doesn't go down spent $15,000 on a whole house unit and big propane tank after they finally went down for five days. Once in 20 years. Four years ago and the only time it has ever fired up is the monthly test.

Don't get carried away with back up power.


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## Ashful (Sep 11, 2012)

Thomas Anderson said:


> That's one of the problems with using a generator to run your household directly. It needs to be big enough for the biggest load, e.g. starting your well pump, but that often makes it over-sized for the average load, and thus it burns through fuel too fast. It's going to be a little more expensive, but putting a battery bank between your generator and your house would allow you to right-size your generator and also not need to run it as often. I.e. just charge up the batteries and run the generator again when they get low.


 
I agree completely, and that's a good plan for someone like yourself, but likely a hassle for the average homeowner. Batteries have their own host of problems and dangers. I can't tell you how many homes I've seen with battery battery backups on their sump pumps, only to see the light indicating a bad battery glowing, and the homeowner giving the usual "I've been meaning to get around to replacing that..." excuse.



BrotherBart said:


> Don't get carried away with back up power.


 
I figure I can rent a hotel room for every outage I'll ever see in this lifetime for less than the cost of the generator it would take to keep this house humming in the summertime. If it's hot, and the AC is cranking when the power goes out, I'm headed for the closest hotel with juice. Wintertime outages around here are so much less frequent and painful.


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## Thomas Anderson (Sep 11, 2012)

I would tend to assume that if my power is out, it is more dangerous to travel than to stay put, at least for quite awhile anyway.  You're not going anywhere in a hurricane, ice storm, or snow storm.  And if it's a major grid interruption like we've been seeing lately, then the nearest hotel with power may be a much longer drive than you want to go.  Plus you have to worry about food spoiling, pipes bursting, etc.  There's also the issue of miscreants using the opportunity to loot houses with no security systems due to the outage.  To each their own, but I'd rather maintain power in my residence than roll the dice.  It's not just the cost of a hotel at stake.

If you were going to add batteries to a whole-house backup system, then you would definitely want to go with good quality deep cycle batteries that have a decent lifespan and warranty.  Mine are warranted for 15 years.  And of course, once you have batteries, it's easy to add some solar panels to your setup if you want to as well.  That would save significant fuel during an extended outage and could even maintain baseline functions when your genny is completely out.


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## jharkin (Sep 12, 2012)

BB and Joful made some very good points about sizing - but I don't think they were saying any backup is bad. They were just pointing out the difference between a minimal backup to run the essentials (good) vs. spending 10s of thousands on a backup big enough to maintain your lifestyle like nothing happened, which I 100% agree is a waste for most of us.


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## velvetfoot (Sep 12, 2012)

An advantage of a portable generator is that it can be moved somewhere else where power is not available to do a job, or to help out someone else.
A disadvantage is that someone could take it...it is portable, after all.


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## MasterMech (Sep 12, 2012)

velvetfoot said:


> An advantage of a portable generator is that it can be moved somewhere else where power is not available to do a job, or to help out someone else.
> A disadvantage is that someone could take it...it is portable, after all.


 

I don't want to meet the sumbitch that can pick-up my 7500W "portable" (All copper windings, twin cylinder engine, no wheel kit on it, just sits in the corner of my garage.), load it up and take off.    He can have it. I'll get another one. 
(I have much more portable units for off-site work.)


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## Ashful (Sep 12, 2012)

Thomas Anderson said:


> I would tend to assume that if my power is out, it is more dangerous to travel than to stay put, at least for quite awhile anyway. You're not going anywhere in a hurricane, ice storm, or snow storm. And if it's a major grid interruption like we've been seeing lately, then the nearest hotel with power may be a much longer drive than you want to go. Plus you have to worry about food spoiling, pipes bursting, etc. There's also the issue of miscreants using the opportunity to loot houses with no security systems due to the outage. To each their own, but I'd rather maintain power in my residence than roll the dice. It's not just the cost of a hotel at stake.


 
Some good points, depending on how rural or urban you are, but I've never experienced an outage of more than a few hours in my 40 years of life. The longest I can recall was the "Great Northeast Outage of 2003" [1], which only lasted one afternoon and evening in our area. We did go to a hotel that evening, and they had power, water, and AC running, thanks to a big on-site generator. Our alarm system does have battery backup, which is good enough to carry us 16 - 24 hours... still many times longer than the longest blackout I can remember.

As far as being prepared for a more drastic or long-term event, my doomsday preparations are quite simple... seeds and ammo.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_blackout_of_2003


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## FrankMA (Sep 12, 2012)

_*"I was surprised that my 7500 base, 10000 w surge Generac takes a big hit when the well pump, which is down 450', comes on. It's not like the pump was spec'd for for startup current or anything..it came with the house. I measured the startup current once, and it was real big."*_​​My well is only 160' deep so I wonder if the additional depth and required HP of your well pump is what causes such a huge draw when it comes on. My well pump is 1/2 HP @ 230V/60Hz/1Ph.​


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## velvetfoot (Sep 12, 2012)

FrankMA said:


> _*"I was surprised that my 7500 base, 10000 w surge Generac takes a big hit when the well pump, which is down 450', comes on. It's not like the pump was spec'd for for startup current or anything..it came with the house. I measured the startup current once, and it was real big."*_​​My well is only 160' deep so I wonder if the additional depth and required HP of your well pump is what causes such a huge draw when it comes on. My well pump is 1/2 HP @ 230V/60Hz/1Ph.​


I bet you'll be okay.


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## FrankMA (Sep 12, 2012)

jharkin said:


> BB and Joful made some very good points about sizing - but I don't think they were saying any backup is bad. They were just pointing out the difference between a minimal backup to run the essentials (good) vs. spending 10s of thousands on a backup big enough to maintain your lifestyle like nothing happened, which I 100% agree is a waste for most of us.


 
I agree. I looked into a stationary propane powered unit at one point and IIRC, the cost was somewhere in the $15K range. I can shut down certain circuits periodically (fridge, freezer, lights, etc..) to do laundry if required as I cannot justify that type of expense. My cookstove is propane as is my laundry dryer so my draw on those appliances is much less than if they were 100% electric.


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## Ashful (Sep 12, 2012)

FrankMA said:


> My well is only 160' deep so I wonder if the additional depth and required HP of your well pump is what causes such a huge draw when it comes on. My well pump is 1/2 HP @ 230V/60Hz/1Ph.


 
There's a wide range of HP's for any given depth, depending on your desired or required flow rate. Horsepower translates to a given torque/lift/pressure at a given flow rate, and whereas one installer might install 1.5 HP for a given size house and a given depth, another might cheap out and install 3/4 HP. Both work, but will deliver different flow rates for a given depth.

That said, I suspect start-up current to be largely dependent on depth, as well as motor HP. A 3hp motor on a radial saw or table saw has a much lower start-up current than a 3hp motor on a bandsaw or a heavy planer, due to the added friction and inertia. Even so, I've measured start-up currents of 60 amps on my 3hp (FLC = 18 amp) radial saw motor.


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## Thomas Anderson (Sep 12, 2012)

Also, the depth of the well isn't as important as the depth of the pump and the height of the water column in the well casing.  You're probably not really pulling it all the way up from 450'.  My well is 500' deep in order to get the necessary flow rate, but my pump is at 150' and the top of the water column is at around 75-100'.  So far, I've never sucked air and my pump doesn't need to be too big. I've got a large bladder tank (100 gallons) so it doesn't cycle too often as well.  It's the startup current that's high, so you'll have less load spikes from the pump cycling if you install the largest tank you can.  A large tank also means that if the power goes out while you're in the shower, you can finish your shower before going to turn on the generator.


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## My Oslo heats my home (Sep 14, 2012)

When a transfer box is installed, does the electrician predetermine which circuits get used when he wires it? And how does this box work when the generator runs outdoors and the panel is 30' away? This is all new to me.


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## nate379 (Sep 15, 2012)

Lose power here at the house several times a year, mostly in the winter when we get wind storms. Longest one so far was 3 days.

The $100 I spent for a 1980s model 4k Generac gen set was money well spent.

Have a community well that uses a large 3 phase pump so SOL for having water during power outages. I have drinking water in the pantry and use the water heaters contents for toilet flushing, washcloth "showering", etc.


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## woodgeek (Sep 15, 2012)

Gotta agree with BB's sentiment that a lot folks waste a lot of $$ on backup power. Of course, a _hobby_ is another thing entirely....

My sweet spot is an $80 two stroke genny, a propane burner to cook on, and my hobby PV system with a 40 Ah deep cycle.

Stupid small engine question....I can find sites to convert inverter generators to propane....is it possible for a cheapo two stroke?

EDIT: after some coffee....I realized no lube in propane = no two-stroke.


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## FrankMA (Sep 15, 2012)

My buddy (who is a licensed electrician) and I just installed my 10 circuit transfer box yesterday. We started out connecting the most important (to me) circuits to power from the generator. We hooked up the well pump first, then the furnace, fridge, freezer, etc... until we had all the circuits/power used up.

My transfer panel was all prewired and had (2) 220V circuits and (8) 110V circuits. After we got all the big ones out of the way, we focused on lights, TV's, etc... until all the circuits were full. What ends up being powered (after the big draw, single circuit items) depends on how your house was wired when it was built. You'll find that some circuits feed power to outlets or lights in 2 or more rooms or levels. I only needed one of the 220V circuits so we converted the second one into (2) additional 110V circuits.

I'm pretty satisfied with the end result as all of the most important bases are covered for my household. I would have needed a much larger generator to power everything and that would have been very expensive and cost prohibitive. Your decision as to what to power and what not, gets easier as you get closer to the last couple of circuits if you have put some thought to your previous choices. You need water, heat and food, the rest is more or less for convenience to make your life easier.


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## velvetfoot (Sep 15, 2012)

Here's a thread I did on my inexpensive, relatively, interlock kit:  https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/squared-generator-interlock-kit.17345/

I've measured the current draw from my 450' deep well pump and it was 37 amps at startup and 11.7 amps constant.


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## Ashful (Sep 15, 2012)

FrankMA said:


> I would have needed a much larger generator to power everything and that would have been very expensive and cost prohibitive. Your decision as to what to power and what not, gets easier as you get closer to the last couple of circuits if you have put some thought to your previous choices. You need water, heat and food, the rest is more or less for convenience to make your life easier.


 
Problem for me is, if it's anytime May thru September when the power goes out, I need air conditioning.  I'm also the guy who keeps his house at 62*F - 68*F in winter.

I think I could live without the lights or the well pump, if the AC was cranking and I had a fridge full of beer. How long does a fridge stay cold when the power goes out?


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## BrotherBart (Sep 15, 2012)

Joful said:


> Problem for me is, if it's anytime May thru September when the power goes out, I need air conditioning.  I'm also the guy who keeps his house at 62*F - 68*F in winter.
> 
> I think I could live without the lights or the well pump, if the AC was cranking and I had a fridge full of beer. How long does a fridge stay cold when the power goes out?


 
Why cooling with window units were a non-event when we lost power when it was 90 a couple of weeks ago. Fired the genny and cool continued. The whole house heat pump died from lack of use/attention back in the 90s.

Got tired of paying to freeze downstairs to keep the upstairs cool. And paying for it.


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## Redbarn (Sep 16, 2012)

Thomas Anderson said:


> If you were going to add batteries to a whole-house backup system, then you would definitely want to go with good quality deep cycle batteries that have a decent lifespan and warranty.  Mine are warranted for 15 years.  And of course, once you have batteries, it's easy to add some solar panels to your setup if you want to as well.  That would save significant fuel during an extended outage and could even maintain baseline functions when your genny is completely out.



I'm interested in your batteries. 
Are they lead/acid? Lithium? 
Could you please share the brand of battery with the 15 year warranty ?


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## Retired Guy (Sep 18, 2012)

Thomas Anderson said:


> What are you guys talking about, I can start my propane genny when its in the single digits. Cold weather is not a problem at all. Diesel doesn't start in cold temps, but propane is fine. Propane boils at -44*F. I don't know the exact rate of consumption, but its under 1 gal/hr. So I could run my generator for like 10 days straight off of my 100 gal tank if I needed to. Good luck storing (and stabilizing) that much gasoline.


 
It has to do with the temperature being too for proper vaporization of the propane. The more surface area (horizontal tank) the better it will perform at low temperatures.


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## Retired Guy (Sep 18, 2012)

MasterMech said:


> That's a hoot. 3000+ miles away and Suburban is still considered a "rip".  And I've yet to talk to an even halfway satisfied customer.


 
Very happy with their service. The prices are a rip though.


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## Highbeam (Sep 18, 2012)

Joful said:


> How long does a fridge stay cold when the power goes out?


 
Not very long if you keep opening the door for more beer. Refrigeration is the #1 reason for my genset.


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## Highbeam (Sep 18, 2012)

begreen said:


> Highbeam pays a lot less than us too.


 
Just filled up the RV tank (30 lbs) and a BBQ 20 lb tank this last weekend for 2.19 per gallon. Diesel is at 4.26. Living on an island in the middle of the puget sound elevates the prices I would think.


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## Ashful (Sep 18, 2012)

Highbeam said:


> Not very long if you keep opening the door for more beer.


 
Just one more reason to buy in 25 oz. bottles.


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## BrotherBart (Sep 18, 2012)

Just shut the gennie down when the lights came back on. High winds bad. Great electric co-op crew that had them back on in an hour good. Nasty wind and a deluge of rain.


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## Highbeam (Sep 18, 2012)

Joful said:


> Just one more reason to buy in 25 oz. bottles.
> 
> View attachment 74222


 
I make beer and cider and prefer the 22 ounce "bombers" for bottling. Much faster process but then you end up drinking 22 ounces of beer everytime you want to have a beer.


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## FrankMA (Sep 18, 2012)

You could always switch to vodka or some other spirit to keep you libated during an emergency situation. Never want to be caught short when the power goes down! I always try to keep an adequate supply of various wines and other beverages on hand just in case of an emergency...


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## BrotherBart (Sep 18, 2012)

FrankMA said:


> I always try to keep an adequate supply of various wines and other beverages on hand just in case of an emergency...


 
I do that too. In case the sun comes up tomorrow.


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## Ashful (Sep 18, 2012)

Yep.. plenty of spirits in the house, but the funny thing about beer is, you always crave it most when it's the least practical to get one.


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