# Purchasing a wood furnace..cant find ANYTHING about it online



## danielj618 (Dec 9, 2006)

Hi..I joined here expressly to see if anyone has ever heard of..or knows where I can get any info on this furnace. I found a really great deal on a secondary combustion wood furnace. It is a "SureFire 101B" it was manufactured by Procam Steel Products Limited, Pembroke, Ontario, Canada

The furnace is in superb condition and was supposedly only used for one season..I have the manual but when searching online the only reference I can find is that to a patent (apparently by the designer or inventor of this furnace)..

I am curious..did they go out of business?..is it unsafe?..

it seems in great shape and the owner used to run a fishing charter boat in the winter down in St Thomas..he only used it one season and it has sat there in the cellar ever since..it has a scandinavian baffle and it looks like a serious unit

I am just surprised I cant find anything at all on it..online

Thanks,

Daniel


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## danielj618 (Dec 10, 2006)

I'm not an impatient person..I am just assuming that you have either drawn a mental blank or you have googled a digital blank

or you have looked at my post with a "blank" stare and then looked away

how can an item be so invisible on the net...you can find anything and yet it is not a crappy looking unit..I found the patent date to be 1981 and yet the description in the stoves manual sounds like I am reading one of the newer descriptions of the most modern products

ok, consider I buy this unit..how critical is a very small length of the flue being reduced..I have a masonary chimney that finds it's opening and cleanout to be in my basement..it used to accomodate an ashley woodburning furnace and it is a 6 inch reciever and the clay liner looks to be of a 6 x 12" inch rectangular measurement..I have a one story home and the height is code..2 feet above the 10 foot to roof dealio

the furnace has a 8 " flue exit and I can run 8 inch to the wall and reduce it to 6 and have it open back up to a nice ample chimney..or should I reduce it at the stove and run 6" to the chimney..or should I try to find a way to open the reciever up to 8"

I have been told I should NOT mess with the clay tile chimney lining

any answers to either question..


a) stove from outer space?

or 

b) flue issues?

Thanks again


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## kevinmoelk (Dec 10, 2006)

Howdy.  You have the manual but want more information?  I'm confused.  What more do you need?

I looked for the company on Google and could not find any information.  

Is it safe?  Not sure.  Is it a listed stove?  EPA compliant?  Is there a tag on the stove?  An address for the company on the manual?  Maybe a letter can be written to the company.

Just trying to provide some ideas.  Good luck in your search.


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## kevinmoelk (Dec 10, 2006)

If the stove was built in 1981 I would say that it is a dinosaur.  Sorry.  I faced a similar situation with a stove I already had that came with my home about the same vintage as the stove you're looking at.  I would strongly suggest that you do a bunch of reading about advancements in stove technology.  After doing some myself I became convinced that 1) Old stoves are dangerous, 2) They are not any where close to being as efficient as a new stove, and 3) The cost of a good, modern stove is nothing compared to your comfort, safety and peace of mind.

I'm no expert, so take my post with a grain of salt.  But I encourage you to do some heavy reading and talk to the pros around here.  I believe most of them would advise you to avoid an old stove manufactured by a company that you can find no information on.  Not to mention that a good used stove really isn't all that expensive if you consider it as an investment.  Spend 1-2K now and it will pay itself off in just a few years in fuel savings.


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## danielj618 (Dec 10, 2006)

wrenchmonster said:
			
		

> Howdy.  You have the manual but want more information?  I'm confused.  What more do you need?
> 
> I looked for the company on Google and could not find any information.
> 
> ...



heres the deal..

I can get a furnace which is basically new for 500 bucks...I am on an extremely limited budget with 6 kids..newly married after a divorce yada yada...the unit should save me alot in heating as I have ready access to much wood..and a nice pile I am using now

I went crazy today looking into duraplus kits..(I have a brand new CFM smaller stove that I bought two years ago)..this stove sits in the basement hooked up but it doesnt throw enough heat to rise upward and make a difference..

thru the wall..500 bucks plus for kit plus pipe..400 plus for thru the ceiling..(dont want to do this now as it is freezing out..cant breach wall in the house as to the clay chimney liner issue

so I find this furnace local..on one hand i trust the guy...he seems really great and all..but I always like to verify

I am baffled I cant find anything online..no listing for the business name..only one listing where this stove is even mention..(the patent)...being a novice to secondary combustion it seems as if this furnace can generate some intense heat..so..I worry just a bit

it's probably fine but I think the company must have gone out of business quickly

I have six kids..

so..great deal vs..safety concern and to me..500 dollars (borrowed from my neighbor)..is a huge chuck of cash for me

and any veiws on the flue reduction?


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## webbie (Dec 10, 2006)

The one question is easy - you do have to replace the thimble with a bigger one. A 6" pipe is 40% smaller than a 8 inch one, and furnaces are relatively high in BTU"s, so in this case, 8 means 8.

Secondly, the stove manufacturer is probably nowhere to be found. That is true of 95% of the companies which made stoves during that period.

However, if this furnace is in decent condition - and if the install is done by someone who is familiar with the ins and outs of such things, then it might serve you well. Wood furnaces have not evolved like wood stoves - in fact, many models being sold today are identical to models from the 70's - part for part!

The reason is that sales were always relatively low, so R&D and new products were rare.

Hope that helps!


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## Webwidow (Dec 10, 2006)

> I'm not an impatient person..I am just assuming that you have either drawn a mental blank or you have googled a digital blank,or you have looked at my post with a "blank" stare and then looked away



Yes to number to all of the above, and now I'm back.



> how can an item be so invisible on the net...you can find anything and yet it is not a crappy looking unit..I found the patent date to be 1981 and yet the description in the stoves manual sounds like I am reading one of the newer descriptions of the most modern products.


You have a a manual, most of your answers should be in there, we would be guessing..I guess.



> ok, consider I buy this unit..how critical is a very small length of the flue being reduced..I have a masonary chimney that finds it's opening and cleanout to be in my basement..it used to accomodate an ashley woodburning furnace and it is a 6 inch reciever and the clay liner looks to be of a 6 x 12" inch rectangular measurement..I have a one story home and the height is code..2 feet above the 10 foot to roof dealio
> 
> the furnace has a 8 " flue exit and I can run 8 inch to the wall and reduce it to 6 and have it open back up to a nice ample chimney..or should I reduce it at the stove and run 6" to the chimney..or should I try to find a way to open the reciever up to 8"



Reducing the flue to a 6 at the stove or into the chimney you might get crappy draft, a furnace tends to burn some wood which creates smoke. With a one story (chimney) house and I assume it is an outside masonry chimney draft is not the greatest. Height=draft



> I have been told I should NOT mess with the clay tile chimney lining



Mess with lining or thimble is big no no. Do not remove or hack away at it if that is what you are thinking. 



> a) stove from outer space?


1-Might just have been a small local shop that made stoves-pre-internet. 
 2-Maybe Tom Cruise popped down from outer space and fabricated it.

IMHO Final answer: Don't buy the stove it might be a smoking bucket, that creates lots of black goo with your chimney set up. It is not worth it for your application.


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## Webwidow (Dec 10, 2006)

hahaha looks like the master and the widow posted at the same time with different answers on different 'puters. His computer said yes while mine said no. The Lucky 8 Ball maybe...


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## elkimmeg (Dec 10, 2006)

EPA  Regs   1990 forward.. Might I make a suggestion? Since little is know about the product you are thinking of purchasing. That little voice in your head is probably telling you don't purchase sometthing you know little about.  No price is a good price  without parts support. It takes a very trained eye and experience to asscess the condition of such equipment
 there are intermal coils bafflets  pumps  check valves ect that need to, be inspected, then there is the integrity of the fire box. In most cases this is not with in the realm of many homeowners
 mechanical abilities. and  neither are they capable to install it.


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## webbie (Dec 10, 2006)

Replacing the thimble is not a big deal. You bust out the old one and then cement a new one in. A short insulated chimney section can often be used for this instead of terra-cotta. The main thing is to make certain you have plenty of masonry surrounding all of it (no wood!) and that you seal it fairly well - this can be done with furnace and refractory cement.....and then reach in after you install and use your hands to goop and smooth the interior where it meets the flue tile. 
Since you should be (hopefully) going into the 12" side of your tile, it should be no prob to install an 8" crock.

Toughest part is to break the tile out bigger where the crock hits it. Drilling a bunch of holes around it with a small hammerdrill might help. Or a small hand grinder with masonry blade and gloves/goggles.


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## webbie (Dec 10, 2006)

I'm assuming this is hot air, not hot water. And, if lightly used (one season), it is probably in almost original shape. Something like that can usually be repaired in the future with some welding and generic material (firebrick, etc.) - so take all that into account.

EPA regs do not apply to central heaters. 

My opinion may differ from other because - again - I can tell you of MANY companies that are selling the same exact furnace they sold 25 or more years ago. Of course you will not get service and support, but with 6 kids you're going to have to be doing just about everything in life yourself for at least awhile (or forever).


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## laynes69 (Dec 10, 2006)

I would say possible draft issues with a shorter chimney like that. My furnace is 20 years old, it was about shot inside and I rebuilt it. Had a few parts fabricated and some welding skills had it fixed better than new. 500 dollars sounds like a good price. One thing I haven't seen here, Whats the square footage of the house, and do you know the heat output size, or sizes on the wood furnace? A woodfurnace can pump out alot of heat and if you would be planning to tie it into the ductwork, you will need to watch your clearances in case of a power outage. As long as your not in a mobile home, or trailer you should be okay. I do know alof of furnaces need some decent draft to operate properly, So I wouldn't reduce the flue.


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## danielj618 (Dec 10, 2006)

wrenchmonster said:
			
		

> If the stove was built in 1981 I would say that it is a dinosaur.  Sorry.  I faced a similar situation with a stove I already had that came with my home about the same vintage as the stove you're looking at.  I would strongly suggest that you do a bunch of reading about advancements in stove technology.  After doing some myself I became convinced that 1) Old stoves are dangerous, 2) They are not any where close to being as efficient as a new stove, and 3) The cost of a good, modern stove is nothing compared to your comfort, safety and peace of mind.
> 
> I'm no expert, so take my post with a grain of salt.  But I encourage you to do some heavy reading and talk to the pros around here.  I believe most of them would advise you to avoid an old stove manufactured by a company that you can find no information on.  Not to mention that a good used stove really isn't all that expensive if you consider it as an investment.  Spend 1-2K now and it will pay itself off in just a few years in fuel savings.



I dont disagree and yet I dont have that money available

..I will type out this from the manual..I dont type fast at all..here goes

The 101B is an advance wood burning furnace intended to satisfy the heating requirements for a new home, or to replace an existing furnace.  It is important that the consumer have an understanding of the operating principles involved.

FIRING WOOD:
All surefire wood furnaces operate in a unique mode.  An operating cycle similar to that of an oil or gas furnace has been chosen to maintain the highest efficiency and control creosote production.  When the thermostat calls for heat, the combustion air damper opens fully, causing an intense fire to develop.  A scandinavian baffle is employed, promoting high gas temeratures, and complete secondary combustion in the secondary combustion chamber located above the baffle.  Large amounts of hot air are supplied via the air inlets on either side of the firedoor to support complete secondary combustion. This results in very clean flue gases with lower than normal deposits of creosote.

A radiation shield is employed on the inside of the firedoor to protect the door and the door frame from the intense temperatures secondary combustion generates. When the room thermostat has been satisfied, the combustion air damper closes tightly, cutting off almost all oxygen to the fire.  A small amount of air is admitted to the firebox to prevent the build-up of volotile gases when the damper is closed. The fire will extinguish, and because grates are not employed, hot coals insulated by the cocooning effect of the ash bed will remain for up to 6 hours after the damper has been closed.  These coals rekindle when the fire when combustion air is again admitted. 

CREOSOTE:

Creosotes are deposits of tar predominantly caused by incomplete combustion of wood.  The amounts of creosote is dependant upon the species of wood, moisture content and humidity of combustion air.  Creosote is produced in large quantities by slow burning and smoldering wood fires.  The 101B controls such production by extinguishing the fire between cycles.  

it goes on to tell you there are cleanouts in the heat exchanger to ensure a good draft and for safety etc..

it "sounds" fairly advanced for it's time but I suppose if it works as advertised would be the key


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## laynes69 (Dec 10, 2006)

Sounds something like a gasification furnace. You say he used it, then it worked for him. Sounds fair on the price, and when it comes to operating it, it should explain to some degree on how to. You will just have to learn how to operate it in a safe clean manner. Follow installation clearances and make sure its installed properly and you shouldn't have any problems. Just make sure it will be okay with your insurance company. Better safe than sorry.


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## danielj618 (Dec 10, 2006)

the house is approx 1,000 sq feet at the original..it has a huge attached garage that I am "very slowly" converting into a large living room and two bedrooms for my girls..it is rocked and insulated well with ten feet ceilings in the that area..house is well insulated..throughout..(modular home, ranch..built in 1980)

I have the CFM stove's (mentioned earlier)..bigger brother in there heating it quite nicely...I push 80 degrees all the time in order to try and have the air flow through to the other end of the house..there is as much as a 15 degree difference at the far end where my daughters sleep now when they are at my house..It is going to get colder..that worries me...I was going to install the smaller CFM stove in the far end when I had plan A,B and C..then I found this furnace in the classifieds

the cellar is all masonary, chimney thimble area..all masonary..7'4" height to cellar ceiling (house floor above)..uninsulated with vents..cellar fllor is cement

the furnace also has a plenum with 3 or 4 round duct outlets..very large circulating fan (drum type?)..everything looks good

I am a mechanic/maitenance person by trade..26 years..

fire box is solid as a rock baffle at the bottom is very very sound..slight warping at the top baffle in the box and slight warping at the inside door radiant sheild

I hope I am providing a good discussion for a sat nite

 =)


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## danielj618 (Dec 10, 2006)

it has a sheet metal outer casing with detachable places to maintian things..not rusted at all

big square box looking ..all controls, plenum on top


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## danielj618 (Dec 10, 2006)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> I'm assuming this is hot air, not hot water. And, if lightly used (one season), it is probably in almost original shape. Something like that can usually be repaired in the future with some welding and generic material (firebrick, etc.) - so take all that into account.
> 
> EPA regs do not apply to central heaters.
> 
> My opinion may differ from other because - again - I can tell you of MANY companies that are selling the same exact furnace they sold 25 or more years ago. Of course you will not get service and support, but with 6 kids you're going to have to be doing just about everything in life yourself for at least awhile (or forever).



plain hot (forced) air


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## laynes69 (Dec 10, 2006)

Sounds like it may be over kill for your home. Thats not alot of space and by the sounds of it the woodfurnace pushes out some serious heat. I have a plain jane wood furnace that heats our 2400 square foot home easily. We have 10 foot ceilings and our house is 150+ years old. I would think with something like that, someone would tend to operate it in a low manner due to a house overheating and this would create a creasote problem. I'm not trying to discourage you, but it happens. Also you will be looking at some wood consumption. Also not to sure with it being a mobile home, maybe someone could chime in on that. I would think about it before you do it, maybe get a few more opinions.


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## danielj618 (Dec 10, 2006)

laynes69 said:
			
		

> Sounds like it may be over kill for your home. Thats not alot of space and by the sounds of it the woodfurnace pushes out some serious heat. I have a plain jane wood furnace that heats our 2400 square foot home easily. We have 10 foot ceilings and our house is 150+ years old. I would think with something like that, someone would tend to operate it in a low manner due to a house overheating and this would create a creasote problem. I'm not trying to discourage you, but it happens. Also you will be looking at some wood consumption. Also not to sure with it being a mobile home, maybe someone could chime in on that. I would think about it before you do it, maybe get a few more opinions.



understood

I was thinking of allowing it to vent directly into the cellar and allow the heat to flow upward..also it isnt a moble home..modular home..(framed house built inside and moved to site in two pieces)..

I have access to about 15 cords of wood that was cut down this january or so..(my neice has 100 acres just logged..tops are everywhere)..I live on a mountain in upstate NY..it's pretty dern cold

I seem to be lobbying against advice..safety was my main concern..I could actually vent this if I wanted to..into the new area of the house which doubles the house size..house is 24 by 40..garage (new living area) is 24 by 35

I want to thank you all for your input..

admin has made me feel alittle better knowing many furnaces have stayed the same..and thank you for the flue advice..the manual seemed to agree but not in a "warning" manner


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## begreen (Dec 10, 2006)

Daniel, maybe it's best to assess the whole process. We're getting information piecemeal. Maybe this furnace is good, maybe it's not, but having the whole picture will help decide that. I wouldn't rush into this one. FWIW, heating a cellar and expecting it to somehow heat the upstairs is often unsuccessful. 

Best to state all the knowns to us (exisitng chimneys, existing heating system type, your location, problems, possible stove locations, the budget) and the goals. A description of the house and it's floorplan would help, as would drawings and pictures.  One question I have is what else is on the chimney flue that you want to attach this wood furnace to? And if you went with the smaller cfm stove instead, what chimney flue would it be connected to, a new one?


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## webbie (Dec 10, 2006)

The idea of venting it into BOTH the basement and perhaps adding two or three of it's own new ducts might be a winner. 

Yeah, in general we have found that tons of heat in the basement tends to stay there, so delivering some of it elsewhere is good. Heck, you're supposed to build houses in the hollow - not on top of NY state Mts. You will freeze up there! But you'll have a nice view while you do


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## danielj618 (Dec 10, 2006)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Daniel, maybe it's best to assess the whole process. We're getting information piecemeal. Maybe this furnace is good, maybe it's not, but having the whole picture will help decide that. I wouldn't rush into this one. FWIW, heating a cellar and expecting it to somehow heat the upstairs is often unsuccessful.
> 
> Best to state all the knowns to us (exisitng chimneys, existing heating system type, your location, problems, possible stove locations, the budget) and the goals. A description of the house and it's floorplan would help, as would drawings and pictures.  One question I have is what else is on the chimney flue that you want to attach this wood furnace to? And if you went with the smaller cfm stove instead, what chimney flue would it be connected to, a new one?



I brought "neighbor joe" with me..while not being an expert in wood furnaces..he is familar with the process..he is a safety freak and we both checked it out..but I got nervous when I couldnt find ANYTHING on the net

in my Garage (new living area) I have a CFM FW300010..it heats ranging from 12,000 to 55,100 BTU's per hour..straight up chimney..metal triple wall from the ceiling up thru..Chimney was here already..(used to have an Ashley wood furnace under it)..10 foot ceilings..total area 24 by 35..I have a back up 35,000 BTU unvented propane wall heater..2 X 6 walls padded out to 8" to match 3 courses of block at bottom of wall..fully insulated and in attic area also.. I have converted it to a breezeway (side entrance door) then a large living room ..and to follow, 2 small bedrooms for my girls ..small back hall leading to the dog door to their yard..

the house is attached to the breezeway thru a standard size doorway....large kitchen, hall with 2 bedrooms to the right, bathroom left and 2nd living room at the far end..electric heat throughout (which I refuse to use..and will be soon ripped out)..I have another 35,000 btu back up heater (same type) in the kitchen...our bedroom will be half of the far end living room..(we sleep in the garage area now..(embarrassed)..we try not to run the propane heaters much at all..(thermostat knob..always turned down low)..

house is solid as a rock and is 3/4" plywood over 2X 4 construction, fully insulated, 1" foamboard insulated and simulated beveled siding..( masonite like material) ....and attic space jammed with about a mile thick fiberglass


we will end up with 5 bedrooms when done..

our climate is cold winters..upstate NY 1,200 feet elevation..usually alot of snow...original windows..(which help my house breath with my unvented heaters)..money is extremely tight and will be for about 2 more years..


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## danielj618 (Dec 10, 2006)

ooops..

this furnace would be vented into an unused external masonary chimney that used to have another ahley furnace attached to it in the basement..chimney is clean and solid..the location is almost directly under the far end living room..(where the heat is needed) solid masonary thimble and cleanout door underneath

I am going outside to measure the height of my chimney..brb


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## danielj618 (Dec 10, 2006)

ok...Chimney is 17 feet high from thimble entrance..thimble enters the wall about 6 feet off the cellar floor

on a personal note..I got remarried a year ago..friends from another forum gave us our wedding as a gift..sweet people sent us a check..we would have had a pretty normal day without them

if you want to see the crew..here is one of our our wedding pics

http://www.bluewavecompany.com/images/wed7.jpg

thats the crew   

my beautiful wife left california for me

I am blessed with a wonderful family


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## danielj618 (Dec 10, 2006)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> And if you went with the smaller cfm stove instead, what chimney flue would it be connected to, a new one?



thats where my search began..I was going to buy a thru the wall kit of simpson duraplus triple wall..it was going to be 500 plus dollars..almost 600..I will be fronted the money for a tree job I am going to do for "neighbor joes" brother..(and I am going to get a TON of oak after I cut down 6 trees)..one of them enormous 

we balked at that price as it was 100 over my pay for the job..he would have loaned me it..but then we were going to breach the masonary chimney midway..I was advised against that by a mason..I could crack it and not know

so we started looking for bigger stoves to put in the cellar through the exsisting chimney

goodnight all

I appreciate your input..

I'll check back tomorrow..(thats when I am supposed to pay for the stove)


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## webbie (Dec 10, 2006)

The unvented is always a big concern -- use only while attended and as little as possible Definitely install a few CO detectors in the house to cover all the combustion you will have going on.

The chimney should work.....main thing with furnaces is not to fire them up until it gets nice and cold...then you won't be smoldering. 

If and when you install ducts for the wood furnace, note that these ducts should not touch wood or combustibles as wood furnaces can get them a lot hotter than others....your manual should have specs on that. If there is none, use 6" from the top of the plenum on the furnace and 2" from the ducts that come out from there - you can probably then go to regular regular boots (which touch combustibles) as long as you are 12 feet or more away from plenum - note that these are guesses based on manuals I have seen. If your manual does not address, download some similar manuals for other wood furnaces and specs should be similar as to duct clearances.


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## begreen (Dec 10, 2006)

That helps. I'm with Craig on this one. If you go for the furnace, you will need to add some ducting to make it deliver the heat efficiently to upstairs. Then it might work ok, though this furnace sounds like overkill for 1000 sq ft. How many BTUs is it rated for in the manual?  It may work, but if you are constantly throttling it down there may be other issues like creosote accumulation. From the description it sounds like there is not a possibility of a trunk duct feeding the garage. Even if it does sort of work, where will the parts come to make it really work well? Where do you get parts for it in the future?

Can a wood stove be added to the living room in the original house? Heating the place 24/7 is a lot of work with wood, but if you are home then it is nice warmth. I agree with not using the propane heaters. I am not a fan of unvented propane heaters. Be sure you have CO detectors if you use these things.  Or have you considered a pellet stove?


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## danielj618 (Dec 10, 2006)

yes..I was going to add the smaller stove to the existing living room..then the cost..I can add a duct leading to the garage..I can run a chase straight up into the attic area..the attic of the garage area and main house connect..and there is an opening between the two..I can also possibly sneak one just at floor level into the garage area but it would have to run along the back wall..(poured cement floor)..the costs are similar but the furnace is slightly cheaper..I also do have the cellar door which can be left open at the top of the cellar stairs..that is in the kitchen..center of the house

I suppose one can never tell until you use it..it seemed as if by description the fire would literally almost go out inbetween it cycling..and then rekindle..coals would remain up to six hours and still re-ignite..the major benefit was being able to load it and go to work and have the house stay warm..another factor is I have an unheated cellar..and water pipes..so far so good but the winters have been mild since I bought the house..I was thinking with that much heat..some of it would have to come upstairs..and some could be vented too

it's a crap shoot and some unknown..

I do have a few CO detectors and the propane units are brand new..I tend to be lucky and I got them for 75 bucks apiece in the boxes..279.00 heaters regularly..end of season..they supposedly have failsafe oxygen depletion sensors..and like I said..the windows are not great and I get some fresh air through and leave one open a crack..so far no problems at all and they are mostly to keep the house warm when we are not home

love the idea of a pellet stove..i have a leftover thru the wall thimble from one that was removed..I hate to sound like a whiner but we dont have money...but we have kids..lots

there is a christmas song about mary and joseph and the inn..a line says.."a barn is a mansion if it's walls shelter love" so in that sense I am a rich man    



gonna sleep on it

later !!


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## Mark (Dec 20, 2006)

Just to let you know I have the same wood furnance in my home. She's an old one by looks of the manuel - 1967 I'm guessing. I bought this farm house last May and the previous owner lived here for years and this was his primary heat. The only thing I had to do for the house inspection was to weld a plate over the heat exchanger as there were some cracks. I'm needing to have it wet certified the first week of the new year so I'll keep you posted. If the furnance you are looking at is new I don't think you have anything to worry.

Mark


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## stoveguy2esw (Dec 21, 2006)

> I do have a few CO detectors and the propane units are brand new..I tend to be lucky and I got them for 75 bucks apiece in the boxes..279.00 heaters regularly..end of season..they supposedly have failsafe oxygen depletion sensors..and like I said..the windows are not great and I get some fresh air through and leave one open a crack..so far no problems at all and they are mostly to keep the house warm when we are not home


 for the record im not meaning that co detectors are not needed , i get on my soapbox about them constantly in my job, but the "ods shutoff system " in vent free appliances are about as foolproof as it gets as long as they are not monkeyed with. vent free gas is safe provided that the parameters of confined space are met. www.ventfree.org/AnswersToComments.htm this is a link for a pretty concise q & a about these products. another good source of information about vent free gas is"gama" who you can look up at www.iccsafe.org  even though im extoling the safety of these units i wholeheartedly agree wil our experts in here that co detectors should be used (as well as smoke detectors) when any flame producing device is present , i dont care who made it or what it burns , if it makes a fire, get these devices


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