# St. Croix Hastings VersaGrate Motor Noise - Revisited with videos!



## ylomnstr (Sep 30, 2009)

So, this is my 2nd season with my Hastings.  I've had issues with the VersaGrate motor being loud from the beginning basically.  I had the dealer give me a new motor which I put in, and the new one started doing the same thing after a day or so.  It just seems like the motor is poorly designed.  Almost sounds as if the bearings are not smooth.  Anyway, I've taken a video of the motor so you guys can hear the difference.  My biggest concern is if I should just run it without the motor.  I know it would require more cleaning, but this is really crazy, especially since the stove is in the same room where I spend the majority of my time, otherwise it wouldn't bother me as much.  I contacted St. Croix at the end of last year and they sent me a 3rd unit, which I haven't put in yet, but I suspect it will do the same thing.  

Last year I started a post about possibly running the stove without the VersaGrate motor.  Some people tried it and noticed a huge difference like me.  Others didn't.  Any suggestions at this point?  Since I have 3, I'm tempted to take the 1st one apart and see if I can figure out why it's so loud.  Anyway, here are the links to the videos (probably have to turn up the volume a bit as they were taken with my cell cam):

With VersaGrate motor running: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCEWpM4seoY

With VersaGrate motor disconnected (disregard the clunk noise you hear occassionaly.  first run of the stove this season and it was warming up):  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPC3Saa9iuY

Thanks.  Rob


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## jtakeman (Sep 30, 2009)

Please post a photo of the motor, There are other brands out there maybe you can cross to.

Post up the motor info.

Manufactor and model number. RPM's would help to.

Jay


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## THE ROOSTER (Sep 30, 2009)

I really couldn't hear much in the videos


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## ylomnstr (Sep 30, 2009)

You definately have to turn the volume up to hear it on the video, but you guys MUST hear the grinding/rattling sound in the first video.  There is no sound in the 2nd video other than the "thump" sound which is just the stove settling as it heats up since it's the first burn this year.

Here's some info on the motors.  The first motor has no sticker on it like the 2nd and 3rd one do giving model info, but it does have the same MK VF stamp on it, so I assume the same company made the first one.

The 2nd currently installed motor is made by Merkle-Korff Ind.  Model # is 4515UI-040.  P/N 80P20296.  115V 60 HZ. Rated .39 Amps
The 3rd motor which I haven't installed yet is the same make.  Model # is 4509UI-040.  P/N 80P20296.  115V 60 HZ. Rated .39 Amps.

Only difference I see is the model # is different.


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## jtakeman (Oct 1, 2009)

I haven't had much luck with the Merkle motors. Just not built to last. I prefer the gleason Avery motors. Built like tanks.

http://www.gleasonavery.com/acmotors/series_v.htm

You would need to figure ot the RPM, I think its a 40 rpm motor but not sure.

Maybe Gleason can cross it over for you.

jay


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## imacman (Oct 1, 2009)

ylomnstr said:
			
		

> ......The first motor has no sticker on it like the 2nd and 3rd one do giving model info, but it does have the same MK VF stamp on it, so I assume the same company made the first one.
> 
> The 2nd currently installed motor is made by Merkle-Korff Ind.  Model # is 4515UI-040.  P/N 80P20296.  115V 60 HZ. Rated .39 Amps
> The 3rd motor which I haven't installed yet is the same make.  Model # is 4509UI-040.  P/N 80P20296.  115V 60 HZ. Rated .39 Amps......



ylomnstr, I heard the noise in the video you mentioned, and compared to the one w/o the motor connected,  I agree that it doesn't sound great. 

 Question:  have you tried running the motors by themselves out of the stove?  Maybe make-up a 120V "test" cord like I did from an old lamp cord plug.  Plug in the original, and then plug in the new 3rd motor and see if you hear any difference.


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## Xena (Oct 1, 2009)

Rob

As you know, I disconnected the versa grate on my st croix mid season last winter
and never looked back.   If I run the stove on #3 or #4 for long periods I do have to scrape the burn pot
out more often, but most of the time those settings cook me out of the house.
It's not that big of a deal and I'm perfectly fine with leaving it unplugged.   Only time
I might want to plug it back in would be if nobody would be home for a full day
but that never happens.


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## ylomnstr (Oct 1, 2009)

Xena said:
			
		

> Rob
> 
> As you know, I disconnected the versa grate on my st croix mid season last winter
> and never looked back.   If I run the stove on #3 or #4 for long periods I do have to scrape the burn pot
> ...



Do you notice that it doesn't burn as clean since you've unplugged it?  Like the flame isn't as strong and/or the glass gets dirtier quicker?  Not sure how that would happen since the versagrate only really scrapes the pot, so it's probably in my head, but I just want to be sure.  Perhaps I'll hook it up to a switch so I can just shut it off when I'm home and turn it on when I'm not home, as you suggested.


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## relxn88 (Oct 1, 2009)

Xena said:
			
		

> Rob
> 
> As you know, I disconnected the versa grate on my st croix mid season last winter
> and never looked back.   If I run the stove on #3 or #4 for long periods I do have to scrape the burn pot
> ...



 I have a St. Croix and I slop up the versa-grate system with lots of Never-seize. You can get it at any auto store. Slop all the cams, shafts and anything that moves and your good for a year.


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## ylomnstr (Oct 1, 2009)

relxn88 said:
			
		

> Xena said:
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Yeah it's not the actual cams or shafts that make the noise.  It's the motor that turns all that stuff.  The motor itself is loud.  I'm wondering if the motor can be taken apart and lubed.


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## mnkywrnch (Oct 1, 2009)

ylomnstr said:
			
		

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Since u have 3 I would give it a shot,just use high temp synthetic grease let us know if u do it and how it works out.


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## Dr_Drum (Oct 1, 2009)

My friend owns a Prescott and complained of the exact same problem. He had it serviced and it was the linkage making noise. I'm not positve, but I think he said they put a gromet or bushing on the linkage? Maybe not the same problem? As macman said, bench test it.
Mike -


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## ylomnstr (Oct 1, 2009)

Well unfortunately my dealer I believe knows less than most of us.  Plus he'll probably charge me to come check it out.


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## mnkywrnch (Oct 1, 2009)

ylomnstr said:
			
		

> Well unfortunately my dealer I believe knows less than most of us.  Plus he'll probably charge me to come check it out.


Just seperate the linkage from the motor and run the stove, that should isolate the noise.


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## ylomnstr (Oct 1, 2009)

mnkywrnch said:
			
		

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Yes even if I run the motor without the linkage connected it still makes the noise.  Definately a problem with these motors.  Not designed to be quiet obviously.


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## Xena (Oct 1, 2009)

ylomnstr said:
			
		

> Do you notice that it doesn't burn as clean since you've unplugged it?  Like the flame isn't as strong and/or the glass gets dirtier quicker?



Negative on both questions.   

Switch? Why make things complicated?  Just pull the connector black/purple wire and it won't run.
Plug the connector back on and it will run.


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## ylomnstr (Oct 1, 2009)

Xena said:
			
		

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True.  It's just that pretty much since I've had the stove, the side panel has been off as this has been an ongoing battle.  I'd like to just finally put the panel back on and only have to take it off once a year to clean inside.  I suppose I could just extend the wire to the back of the unit so I can just unplug it as wanted.


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## jtakeman (Oct 1, 2009)

I like the switch Idea. All the covers can be on and you could activate the motor for a bit as needed. As long as your careful with the wires and use the proper size. Why not! Make sure to keep them from contacting the stove in anyway. Wire tye them to the exsisting harness. And you only need to do one of the wires. So really not that much work involved.

Go for it! Just be careful it is best to be safe. Always unplug the stove when playing with the electrical items.

just my 2
Jay


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## krooser (Oct 1, 2009)

Geez... my St Croix isn't noisy at all.... maybe I'm deaf!

huh?


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## scoop7707 (Nov 11, 2009)

Hey everybody,
New to the board.
I just bought a Prescott EXP and the Versagrate motor makes the same noise. This is my second motor and both have made enough noise to hear from 50ft away. In fact, I listened to the YouTube video posted above, with headphones on, and could barely hear the noise on the video over the noise from my motor. The stove at the dealer is extremely quiet. Only noise is the air from the blower. I just emailed Eventemp support offering to let them listen to the noise over the phone. I can sit at my desk and they will be able to hear it without putting the phone near the stove. My problem is further complicated by the fact that my dealer has hearing loss and cannot hear the motor at all. He came over and replaced the motor with one that made a lot less noise for the first 3 days now it is as loud as the other one. I had my back to him and he unplugged the motor and I said that was a lot better and he was shocked that I could tell with my back to him.
Anyway, they need to find a different manufacturer or design for this motor. The noise if driving my wife and me crazy and the stove is less than a month old. If anyone finds a motor that will work, let me know. I will be happy to buy one and install it myself if Eventemp can't send me a quiet one.

One other thing with the stove, there are puddles of oil on the bottom shelf of the stove right near the Versagrate motor. My dealer saw them too when they installed the new motor. I just looked again tonight and there is more oil. Only thing around that could be leaking oil is the original lubrication of the motor.

I will let you know what Eventemp proposes.


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## magsf11 (Nov 11, 2009)

?????? the only time i hear my motor is when the side panel is open. last yr i did have a noise but after I lubed the cams up with high tept bearing grease the noise went away. after watching the vido again your sounds like mine but when everthing is button up i cannt hear anything on mine.like the one post said try to bench test it and see if the same noise is there.


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## scoop7707 (Nov 11, 2009)

Just rechecked the oil on the floor of the stove and it definitely is coming from the gearbox of the Versagrate motor. I know this post was for the hastings, but the same model motor is in the Prescott. It looks like the motor is mounted differently on the hastings and you may not be able to see the oil leaking if this is the cause. The sound is similar to a timer that that has gone bad.


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## woodsman23 (Nov 11, 2009)

why not try and make a sound cover for the motor and be done with it. maybe use some expanding foam and make a cover for around the motor??. Just putting it out there. I have  a st croix afton bay and i hear little to nothing from the versagrate. Why not just dissconnect it and just manually pull out the shaker rod a couple times a day, its the same deal.


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## krooser (Nov 11, 2009)

My versa-garte is silent... I DO have a rattle when my fan is on high speed. It's either the baffle above the firepot or the hopper extension. Tomorrow I'm going to pull off the hopper extension and run a bead of silicone on the top of the stove where the extension sits... then screw it back down and try it again.

One of the main reasons I bought my (used=cheap) St. Croix was because of the versa-grate... no pot scraping/very little ash build-up even after one week without opening the door... I'm lazy.

I'm going to call ESES *(my dealer) tomorrow and ask them what they think about your problem. They know these stoves inside and out and should have a fix for you... stay tuned.


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## ylomnstr (Nov 11, 2009)

Well I've been through 2 motors and they both did the same thing.  The replacement is fine for a day or so, then starts to go bad again.  What I did for now is hook up an inline switch that I mounted to the back of the stove so I can shut it off just by flipping the switch if I'm in the room and the noise is bothering me.  I leave the motor on most of the time, but if I'm watching a movie or something, I'll shut it off with the switch.  It's such a HUGE difference when I shut the motor off.  My wife was even like WOW.  I don't know if it's just a faulty design for a motor or what.  St. Croix sent me a replacement for the replacement, but I have yet to install it because I'm under the assumption that the same thing will happen with this one which would be motor #3.


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## jamesdjs (Nov 11, 2009)

I have a St Croix and my Versa grate was noisey but it was due to the cam and linkage. I used never seiz on the cam and linkage and all the noise went away.
My motor is silent.


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## colbyc (Nov 11, 2009)

I have been through two motors - same noise keeps coming back.  First my dealer told me the distributor knew about the problem which is why they replaced it the first time.  After I called him back out, he told me there was nothing wrong with my first motor, pellet stoves are just noisy and they are not going to replace it again.  I have kinda of just learned to live with it.  I figured I can just disconnect it if it gets to be too much of a nuisance.


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## imacman (Nov 11, 2009)

THE ROOSTER said:
			
		

> I really couldn't hear much in the videos



Me either....doesn't sound loud to me.


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## ylomnstr (Nov 11, 2009)

macman said:
			
		

> THE ROOSTER said:
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Yeah it didn't come out well.  I'll try taking the video with my actual camcorder and upload it then.  But trust me, its a HUGE difference.


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## krooser (Nov 11, 2009)

I spoke to a service tech today at Earth Sense Energy Systems who is my St. Croix dealer. She told me that the newer versa-grate motors are loud... generally louder than the older ones (my stove is about 7 years old and is silent). There is no remedy to quieting down the new motors. She said that if the noise is too much you may be able to replace that motor with one from another manufacturer. Of course the specs would have to be the same. Whether Even-Temp would help you out with the replacement cost is unknown... but I would certainly press them to help you out.

Sorry I don't have better news... ESES is probably St. Croix's biggest dealer (and other manufacturers, too.) I've never been steered wrong by the service dept.... I guess the next move is up to you.


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## mnkywrnch (Nov 11, 2009)

I believe your right krooser mine makes alittle noise every half revolution but isn't that bad,doesn't bother me one bit,but I'm normally listening to the forced hot air furnace running which is much louder.


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## krooser (Nov 12, 2009)

Here's a picture of the versa-grate motor driveshaft... have you lubricated the eccentric at the end of the shaft? It's located inside the steel bracket at the end of the shaft.


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## mnkywrnch (Nov 12, 2009)

I've taken the versa grate on my stove completely apart lubed the cams rods everything,the noise is definitely the motor,but it really isn't a big deal to me as the stove is in the dining room.I used the cooper high temp anti seize.


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## ylomnstr (Nov 12, 2009)

mnkywrnch said:
			
		

> I've taken the versa grate on my stove completely apart lubed the cams rods everything,the noise is definitely the motor,but it really isn't a big deal to me as the stove is in the dining room.I used the cooper high temp anti seize.



Ditto with me.  The noise from the motor sounds like metal bearings rolling around each other or something.  Can't really explain it, but it's a huge difference.


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## krooser (Nov 12, 2009)

Fair enough...


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## scoop7707 (Nov 13, 2009)

Thanks everyone for the suggestions and research. The noise on the video is barely descernable compared to mine. The noise is definitely in the gearbox connected to the motor. When disconnected from everything else, the motor with gearbox is loud. Like I said, I can hear it over 50 ft away plain as day. It is in the room with my TV and it is very hard to hear the TV.
I looked at the puddle of oil and found it is coming from the gearbox.

I spoke to my dealer and also got a response from tech support at Eventemp. Eventemp said they would work with my dealer to solve the problem. They also said that motor is a "Buy Out" part they have no control over. I don't know what that means. Does that mean the VersaGrate system is made by another company and they cannot specify that another motor needs to be used? I asked for the RPM of the motor so I could see if there was another brand I could replace it with. They said it is a 1 RPM. The closest thing I could find looks right, but is a two RPM.

My dealer asked Eventemp if they could take apart the gearbox to see if they could find out what was going on and still send it back under warranty. EvenTemp agreed. My dealer said the inside of the gearbox was filled with a vaseline type of grease with no gasket between the halves of the gearbox. He thinks the high temp is melting the grease and it is running out the bottom of the gearbox. He scraped all the grease out of the gearbox and packet it with high temp lithium grease. I am scheduled to go down there tomorrow to listen to it run outside the stove. 

We ran the original outside the stove disconnected from everything. When my dealer had it out of the stove and running, he disconnected the power to the motor while my back was turned and I exclaimed "Wow, that is better" It was a huge relief. The noise is loud. It shocked him that I knew when he disconnected the power. Turns out my dealer has some loss of hearing and the tones he cannot hear is the range the motor makes its noise in. He cannot hear it at all, but knows it is real because I could tell him when he disconnected it. I cannot say how much of a relief it was to have it disconnected. 

I will let you know if the other grease helps the noise. If it doesn't I may try the replacement they would send or maybe, I will buy the 2RPM motor and just run the VersaGrate twice as fast. It would cost about $80 plus shipping, but would be worth it. I don't know if I can take this noise much longer. After a few thousand dollars and a month with the stove, I am ready to chuck it out of the house.


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## ylomnstr (Nov 13, 2009)

Scoop7707 said:
			
		

> Thanks everyone for the suggestions and research. The noise on the video is barely descernable compared to mine. The noise is definitely in the gearbox connected to the motor. When disconnected from everything else, the motor with gearbox is loud. Like I said, I can hear it over 50 ft away plain as day. It is in the room with my TV and it is very hard to hear the TV.
> I looked at the puddle of oil and found it is coming from the gearbox.
> 
> I spoke to my dealer and also got a response from tech support at Eventemp. Eventemp said they would work with my dealer to solve the problem. They also said that motor is a "Buy Out" part they have no control over. I don't know what that means. Does that mean the VersaGrate system is made by another company and they cannot specify that another motor needs to be used? I asked for the RPM of the motor so I could see if there was another brand I could replace it with. They said it is a 1 RPM. The closest thing I could find looks right, but is a two RPM.
> ...



What about running the stove with the motor disconnected?  I know some others on this forum have done that and say they haven't noticed a difference, other than the great peace and quiet.  Like I said, I hooked up a switch so I can turn it on and off as needed.  If yours is that much louder than mine, then yours may really be a bigger problem.


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## scoop7707 (Nov 13, 2009)

Here is the quote from tech support
"This is a buy out part that we have no control over and if the gear box is not packed tight enough with grease then it will become noisy."

I am wondering if I can repack a new one with good grease whether it would stay quiet. In other words, if the motor is run and is not packed with enough grease, does it do damage to the gearbox making it noisy forever no matter how much grease would get packed in later. We will see. I am sure I have nothing to lose. It is not like I can return the stove. Of course, if I could get the motor out of the one in my dealer's show room floor, it would be as quiet as a mouse.


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## ylomnstr (Nov 13, 2009)

Scoop7707 said:
			
		

> Here is the quote from tech support
> "This is a buy out part that we have no control over and if the gear box is not packed tight enough with grease then it will become noisy."
> 
> I am wondering if I can repack a new one with good grease whether it would stay quiet. In other words, if the motor is run and is not packed with enough grease, does it do damage to the gearbox making it noisy forever no matter how much grease would get packed in later. We will see. I am sure I have nothing to lose. It is not like I can return the stove. Of course, if I could get the motor out of the one in my dealer's show room floor, it would be as quiet as a mouse.



Keep us posted!


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## scoop7707 (Nov 13, 2009)

I definitely have not ruled out a switch as an option. I would like the stove to work like it was intended especially for a few thousand dollars.


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## ylomnstr (Nov 13, 2009)

Yeah I here you.  Pisses me off too.  Especially since I found out about the St. Croix having this motor AFTER I bought the unit.  Sure, my fault for not really doing my homework, but I had an odd feeling I was going to deal with this exact issue after I bought the unit.


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## krooser (Nov 13, 2009)

I think by "buy out" he means this is a vendor part that they do not manufacter themselves... they have no control over the part but they DO have a say who they buy from. If enough folks complain about the noise I'm sure they will look for another vendor... but the dealers have to make their feelings known, too.

The St. Croix is a good unit... I really like the fact that you don't have to do much daily maintenence on 'em.. that noisy versa-grate is a good design. Now to get yours quiet....


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## scoop7707 (Nov 25, 2009)

Sorry it has been a while since I made it back here. The day I was supposed to pick up the modified motor, my sales person was sick and he had the motor in his truck, then with deer hunting it delayed it even more. When I went to pick up the motor from my dealer, he had the door to the Prescott he runs on the sales floor open. Turns out the one he had that was running quiet started making enough noise he could hear it with his hearing damage. He made the modifications on the one he had and asked me how it sounded. It was very quiet.
He connected mine to a power supply and I could not hear it run. I just installed it and we will see if it stays quiet. It is very quiet right now. I have to strain to hear it it at all. If I didn't know what to listen for, I would not be able to hear it at all. 

The modification he made was to open the gearbox, scrape out all the lubrication that was left in there, filled it with white lithium grease and then used a little high temp silicone on the outside of the gearbox so the grease would not leak out even if it got runny. 

Only time will tell. I will also try to lubricate the shaft of the VersaGrate. The cam has been lubed with white lithium. It should be good to around 400 degrees. I will let you know how it goes. 

I hope this is a good long term solution and gives us all some hope there is a solution.


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## krooser (Nov 25, 2009)

Good news... if this works out this post will make things a lot easier for those of us with St. Croix stoves...


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## mnkywrnch (Nov 25, 2009)

I will also try to lubricate the shaft of the VersaGrate. The cam has been lubed with white lithium. It should be good to around 400 degrees. I will let you know how it goes. 
I would use the copper high temp anti seize it will hold up better than the lithium grease.


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## jxnsdad (Nov 25, 2009)

Can you post the make and model of motor they gave you to replace the motor that was then packed with lithium?  Thank you


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## krooser (Nov 25, 2009)

jxnsdad said:
			
		

> Can you post the make and model of motor they gave you to replace the motor that was then packed with lithium?  Thank you


You missed it.... see the first page....


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## scoop7707 (Nov 25, 2009)

I will try the copper anti-sieze. thanks Mnkywrnch

The make and model of both motors was the same as the earlier post with the motor pictures. 

The motor was still quiet this morning after running all night. We will see how it does in the next week.


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## Dr_Drum (Nov 26, 2009)

Just FYI, you can find grease that is made for extreme high heat applications up to and beyond 900F. Personally, I would consider a dry lubricant instead though. Maybe try cleaning out the gear box etc. completely with carb cleaner, dry completely, and fill with powdered graphite. Just thinking out loud. I think graphite is good to over 3000F.
Mike -


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## rickgrimes2 (Nov 27, 2009)

I want to thank scoop 7707 for the tip. I have a st croix afton bay,bought it in Sept of 09 and it also had a noisy versa grate motor. I had my dealer look at it and he said it was the reduction gears meshing,most of them make the noise.Then on this forum, I saw other folks with same problem.I took scoop 7707 advice and took the motor cover off,cleaned it out and I put some john deere high temp cornhead grease in the housing,put it all back together,and I was shocked that I can not even hear the darn motor even run! After living with this for the past couple of months,silence is golden. Thanks scoop 7707 and thanks to all the other members for all the advice and education in the art of pellet stove operation..


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## johnny1720 (Nov 28, 2009)

From my research it seems that the versa grates are just cheese graters.  And you know what happens at the bottom of a cheese grater?  All the waste matter is piled up below the grate and it slows the burn down.  If you don't have one be happy that you don't.  I agree they are good for a quick clean but to have it constantly running is bothersome to me.  I unplugged the grates on both of my stove and never looked back.


Just an FYI:  Unplug the grate and clean the stove every two weeks like the rest of us.


Johnny


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## krooser (Nov 28, 2009)

johnny1720 said:
			
		

> From my research it seems that the versa grates are just cheese graters.  And you know what happens at the bottom of a cheese grater?  All the waste matter is piled up below the grate and it slows the burn down.  If you don't have one be happy that you don't.  I agree they are good for a quick clean but to have it constantly running is bothersome to me.  I unplugged the grates on both of my stove and never looked back.
> 
> 
> Just an FYI:  Unplug the grate and clean the stove every two weeks like the rest of us.
> ...



That just doesn't happen... after a week the ash is MAYBE 1" higher under the Versa-grate than on the sides. The ash is pretty evenly distributed....

I bought my St. Croix BECAUSE of the versa-grate... I didn't know anything about pellet stoves but the service tech I talked to told me I'd have a lot less cleaning to do with the versa-grate than without. I can go as long as two weeks without even opening the stove's door... the versa-grate motor is something like a two rpm motor... not exactly high speed....


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## mnkywrnch (Nov 28, 2009)

johnny1720 said:
			
		

> From my research it seems that the versa grates are just cheese graters. And you know what happens at the bottom of a cheese grater? All the waste matter is piled up below the grate and it slows the burn down. If you don't have one be happy that you don't. I agree they are good for a quick clean but to have it constantly running is bothersome to me. I unplugged the grates on both of my stove and never looked back.
> 
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> Just an FYI: Unplug the grate and clean the stove every two weeks like the rest of us.
> ...


I agree   ash does build up under the grate,but that's why there's a shaker plate a few pulls every morning and the ash falls right in the pan,IMO the versa grate is a nice feature just a little noisy,but I will be solving that problem soon,so to unplug the grate would be kinda silly when it does work well.
mnkywrnch


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## johnny1720 (Nov 29, 2009)

krooser said:
			
		

> That just doesn't happen... after a week the ash is MAYBE 1" higher under the Versa-grate than on the sides. The ash is pretty evenly distributed....



How many stoves have you worked on?  How many stoves have you owned?

You just agreed with me in your statement above.

Trust me I know what I am talking about and you have no idea.  

Johnny


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## krooser (Nov 29, 2009)

johnny1720 said:
			
		

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Here's five days of ash (Monday to Saturday) in my St. Croix burning Uncle Jed's pine pellets...  sure looks pretty good to me.

The burn pot...






The ash under the dreaded versa-grate... the unburned pellets are from the auger dumping them in while I waited for the grate to cycle back so I could remove it.





The versa-grate plate...





Finally the ash pan...





This stove ran almost continuously from Monday until Saturday @ 11:00PM CST. I shut it down for maybe 8 hours total during the day when the outside temps were in the 40's. 

How many stoves have I worked on? One...mine. For three seasons... I think I know it pretty well. I don't plan on getting in a peeing match with you... but now it's your turn to provide some photgraphic evidence of how bad the versa-grate system is...

Your turn...


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## johnny1720 (Nov 29, 2009)

Kroozer

I worked on a design team that re-developed a line of pellet stoves.  I know the in's and out's of the versa grate systems.  And they just don't work.  The amount of ash you have below your grate is more than if you simply unplugged it for the week.  Also you would not have any unburnt "wasted" pellet fuel below your grate if your grate was disabled.  Look at the different stoves on the market and you will have clear understanding of why so few of the other MFG's use that system.  It is another object that can break or cause a call back.  And when it comes down to the functionality of that design it really does not work as well as you think it would.  

But you want to believe what a salesman told you by all means go ahead and don't listen to the people designing stoves.



Johnny


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## mnkywrnch (Nov 29, 2009)

I've never designed or built a pellet stove,but do clean and repair mine and help friends when there having issues I personaly like the versa grate system,  I ran it unplugged and the ash was much higher under the burnpot than when I was running it,but your a designer of stoves and know much better than personal experiences,so I must be dreaming it all up.BTW you really must of had a bad experience with the versa grate to hate it so much.Krooser thanks for sharing the pics looks good.


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## krooser (Nov 29, 2009)

johnny1720 said:
			
		

> Kroozer
> 
> I worked on a design team that re-developed a line of pellet stoves.  I know the in's and out's of the versa grate systems.  And they just don't work.  The amount of ash you have below your grate is more than if you simply unplugged it for the week.  Also you would not have any unburnt "wasted" pellet fuel below your grate if your grate was disabled.  Look at the different stoves on the market and you will have clear understanding of why so few of the other MFG's use that system.  It is another object that can break or cause a call back.  And when it comes down to the functionality of that design it really does not work as well as you think it would.
> 
> ...



I just don't agree... I never have any unburned pellets under the grate... those in the picture were dumped by the auger while I was waiting 30 seconds or so for the grate to move so I could remove it. 

I doubt there are many stoves that will allow you to run for 10-14 days without scraping, cleaning or otherwise attending to the burn pot and still have a good running stove. I can't go that long using Uncle Jed's pellets... but I can using Eureka's or Bear Mountain since they both produce less ash than the UJ's... seven days is about max with my regular pellet.

There's room in this industry for many different products and designs... top feed, bottom feed, etc. No one design is perfect... no one opinion is correct all the time. I come from the automotive world where there's always new and different designs being developed. Maybe a new Maybach is the best car in the world but I really don't give a flying crap... I like my '56 Ford F100 with the supercharged Hemi... my stove is an older, low tech model and I like that.

I spoke with the SERVICE dept. at my dealer, too... the tech told me he prefers the St. Croix's over the other brands they sell...Harman, Enviro, Quad, Theilen, Lennox and others. Fewer problems and service calls. Since I used to be an ASE certified auto technician listening to the guys who repair the stoves was important.

I'd buy another St. Croix in a heartbeat... my stove is 9 years old. I've owned it for three seasons. Except for screwing around with damper settings and forgetting to tighten the ashpan resulting in a poor burn and a plugged stove (my fault) it's been almost perfect. Keep most any stove clean and it will give years of great service. 

There are other stoves I'd look at, too... I'm not a "brand snob"... I try to buy the best product for the price.

No offense... but listening to just the designers would mean I could have also owned a Corvair, Vega, Pinto, Edsel, Yugo, Fiat, Chop-o-matic, Shamwows etc.


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## jtakeman (Nov 29, 2009)

krooser said:
			
		

> I doubt there are many stoves that will allow you to run for 10-14 days without scraping, cleaning or otherwise attending to the burn pot and still have a good running stove.



Last year I went 14 days using MaineWoods bad batch. I only had to stop because the ash pan was full. I remember seeing hearthtools posting a photo of his stove running for a solid month(I will try to find the lnk).  Yes we both own the same stove. Enviro Omega.

Rods link 10 weeks 35 bags(can't find the one with the photo's)

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/12700/#144031

Here the one with photo's

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/13351/#147693

So they are out there. But your gonna pay for them.

jay

P.S. krooser. For a week solid run that aint shabby.


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## imacman (Nov 29, 2009)

johnny1720 said:
			
		

> From my research........If you don't have one be happy that you don't.  I agree they are good for a quick clean but to have it constantly running is bothersome to me.  I unplugged the grates on both of my stove and never looked back.
> 
> Just an FYI:  Unplug the grate and clean the stove every two weeks like the rest of us.
> 
> Johnny



Hmmmmm......so your an engineer.  You did research, but according to what you said above, you still bought not one, but TWO stoves that had the grates.  Then, I guess your research was way off, because then you had to UNPLUG the grates on both stoves.  (I would think a good engineer would have forseen that and NOT bought a stove that had them).

And now your annoyed that other NON-ENGINEERS seem to like and have good luck with their stoves.

Sounds like a disgruntled engineer that is annoyed that he didn't see "problems" ahead of time, even though he did "research" on it.

And THEN, in a later post, you said "Trust me I know what I am talking about and you have no idea."   

Seems like YOU had "no idea", otherwise you wouldn't have bought 2 stoves that had the grates.

But hey, what do I know....I'm not an engineer.   :-/


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## mnkywrnch (Nov 29, 2009)

Well said Jay,mac&krooser;.


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## jtakeman (Nov 29, 2009)

johnny1720 said:
			
		

> Just an FYI:  Unplug the grate and clean the stove every two weeks like the rest of us.
> 
> Johnny



I don't get that part. If its working and you get about a week before cleaning. How would it go 1 week longer without the grate not working(disabled).

You would think you would get less time without the grate. I'm with krooser on this. Just doesn't sound possible.


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## johnny1720 (Nov 30, 2009)

-I understand how you might think that having the grate would extend your cleaning intervals.  *However what happens when you run that stove on a lower combustion setting the material gets shredded and falls below the grate.  Also the material that it does grind up when the stove is running harder flies out of the grate then moves to either the ash traps or the chimney of your stove. * And usually that little motor that runs the "versa" grate is wired directly in with the convection blower.  When it really should either be on its own circuit or wired up to run the same speed as the combustion fan.  

-If you look at a cheese grater and you run it back and forth where does the cheese go?  Now place that cheese grater under your burn pot.  The material goes directly below the grate and it slows the airlfow when running on lower settings.  If you are dilligent about cleaning your stove this is not an issue as many of the people on this forum clean there stoves regularly.  However when you have the uneducated public using these stoves and they think they are automatically cleaning because of this grate you will have issues.  What happens is this little grate allows the stove to run no matter how dirty it is.  However it will run terrible the entire time and thus creating bad situations.  It would be better to have the stove stop burning because it is dirty rather than it run terrible.

I was just trying to help the fellow out with the problem in the frist place.  I know everyone is entitled to there ideas/opinions but when you have actually worked in the industry and have seen why/what how and when it puts things in different perspective.

Johnny


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## johnny1720 (Nov 30, 2009)

macman said:
			
		

> Hmmmmm......so your an engineer.  You did research, but according to what you said above, you still bought not one, but TWO stoves that had the grates.  Then, I guess your research was way off, because then you had to UNPLUG the grates on both stoves.  (I would think a good engineer would have forseen that and NOT bought a stove that had them).
> 
> And now your annoyed that other NON-ENGINEERS seem to like and have good luck with their stoves.
> 
> ...



Big Mac,

Your crystal ball must be cloudy!

Peace

Johnny


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## Xena (Nov 30, 2009)

I think the versa grate is a useless/noisy p.o.s. on these late model st croix stoves
and I disconnected mine last season and have not looked back.   I tried lubing it
and it was still noisy.


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## krooser (Nov 30, 2009)

johnny1720 said:
			
		

> -I understand how you might think that having the grate would extend your cleaning intervals.  *However what happens when you run that stove on a lower combustion setting the material gets shredded and falls below the grate.  Also the material that it does grind up when the stove is running harder flies out of the grate then moves to either the ash traps or the chimney of your stove. * And usually that little motor that runs the "versa" grate is wired directly in with the convection blower.  When it really should either be on its own circuit or wired up to run the same speed as the combustion fan.
> 
> -If you look at a cheese grater and you run it back and forth where does the cheese go?  Now place that cheese grater under your burn pot.  The material goes directly below the grate and it slows the airlfow when running on lower settings.  If you are dilligent about cleaning your stove this is not an issue as many of the people on this forum clean there stoves regularly.  However when you have the uneducated public using these stoves and they think they are automatically cleaning because of this grate you will have issues.  What happens is this little grate allows the stove to run no matter how dirty it is.  However it will run terrible the entire time and thus creating bad situations.  It would be better to have the stove stop burning because it is dirty rather than it run terrible.
> 
> ...



Johhny,

Just to be accurate... the versa-grate doesn't "grate" anything. It's right under the burn pot (as you know) and it simply moves back and forth about 2" and can rock from side to side while moving. This allows the ash to drop off the "grate" and onto the shaker plate which is above the ashpan. Then you simply pull on the shaker plate rod a couple time per day to drop the ash into the pan...

The versa-grate motor is maybe 2 rpm's... very slow.

I know there are lots of good stoves out there... I've been looking for a good, used stove for my shop and it wouldn't have to be any certain brand... I'm open to others.

We'll just have to agree to disagree because it's evident we'll never agree ... that's OK... I'm married and I'm used to that.

Take care...


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## johnny1720 (Nov 30, 2009)

krooser said:
			
		

> We'll just have to agree to disagree because it's evident we'll never agree ... that's OK... I'm married and I'm used to that.
> 
> Take care...



True enough!

Peace


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## scoop7707 (Dec 3, 2009)

Sorry it has taken me so long to get back. I am working a lot of hours.
Sounds like some good discussion here. All is good food for thought.

Whether you think the VersaGrate is good or bad, there is an issue with the St. Croix VersaGrate gear boxes making a lot of noise. After running this for a few weeks packed with grease, the gearbox is still almost completely silent. We can now hear the TV (maybe I should make it noisy again!). Some of my sanity has returned (in my opinion, my wife may have a different one). 

So if you want to use the Versa Grate, then take apart the gearbox and pack it will good high temp grease and seal the case outside with high temp silicone. You will be surprised at how quiet it is. 
Of course, if you don't want to use the grate and unplug it, the noise will also go away.

For me, after using the stove when it gets colder here, I will probably unplug mine for a week to test how that works. I will be interested in the ash drop and see if there is increased pellet usage. It might not make much of a difference. So far I am cleaning my stove every couple days. This may be overkill or good practice. Either way I am sure that the new stove cleaning might go the way of my washing a new car. After 5 years, it doesn't get washed nearly as mush as that first year.

Have a great night everyone and stay warm.


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## krooser (Dec 3, 2009)

Sounds like the problem is resolved... good luck.


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## scoop7707 (Dec 6, 2009)

One more update. I got around to cleaning the burn pot and found there was a lot of ash clumped together in the bottom of the pot. Thought it was wierd. When I looked at the motor, I forgot to tighten the set screw on the linkage between the motor and shaft. I tightened it and the motor started making a lot of noise again. 
The good news is after about 30 minutes, every bit of noise went away! Right now I am sitting less than 10' from the side of the stove where the motor is and I cannot hear it at all. This is the way it should sound. I only hear the blower and the pellets. I stopped by the dealer and theirs also make no noise. Packing the gearbox with grease and sealing it so the grease does nto come out is definitely the fix. Thanks for the help and suggestions everyone.


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## woodchopper (Dec 7, 2009)

Glad things worked out for you Scoop and glad I read this thread.


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## scoop7707 (Jan 7, 2010)

Hey everybody,
Not to beat a dead horse, but wanted to report a couple things. Versagrate motor is still quiet as a mouse.

There was some conversation here about running the versagrate vs. not running it. I got the chance to do both. Here are the results.
St. Croix Prescott EXP

No Versagrate:
After 1.5 days with pulling the ash cleanout rod three times, I had to use the pot scraper tool to break up the leftovers on the bottom of the burn pot. The fire was not burning well.

With Versagrate: 
5 days with pulling the Ash Cleanout rod twice a day (same frequency as with no VersaGrate). Burnpot clean. fire good, no scraper needed.
There was some question of whether the versagrate would pile all the ash in the center of the pan. This was not the case. I actually got more ash build up on the right hand side of the ash pan than anywhere else. Then was the left side, then the middle. 
My opinion, I will keep the VersaGrate. I will also keep the stove. It is great. I don't run my furnace at all and my house is an even temp throughout which was not the case with the furnace even after balancing the heat.

I did run into one additional issue with the stove. After over a month of running everyday, I turned it up to maximum. I smelled a smell like the paint was curing again. What happened is the paint on the fake brick grate at the back of the stove started peeling. The paint was soft and peeled in a couple spots. Looked at the stove at my dealer and the paint is bubbling a bit on theirs also. I can only see it when I clean it. After a couple hours, there is enough ash to blend the peel into the rest of the grate. My wife was pretty upset, but she is never around when I clean it and think she has forgotten it. We do like the stove. She is getting spoiled being warm in the family room again.


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## mnkywrnch (Jan 7, 2010)

Nice post scoop!I've tried it both ways as well and my results were similar to yours,I will definetly keep the versa grate running.


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## Estarrio (Jan 29, 2010)

Has anyone had issues with popping or banging sounds from the versa grate?

I have a York insert that I just installed.  Intermittently, it makes a LOUD popping noise...when I look at the burn pot, you can see the pellets jumping along with the bangs - looks like popcorn!

Last night the banging got so loud, it woke up everyone in the house both upstairs and down.  It sounded like a hammer hitting sheet metal at full velocity.

The dealer is going to send someone by this weekend but as it is an intermittent problem, I'm afraid they won't be able to do much.


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## woodsman23 (Jan 29, 2010)

Estarrio said:
			
		

> Has anyone had issues with popping or banging sounds from the versa grate?
> 
> I have a York insert that I just installed.  Intermittently, it makes a LOUD popping noise...when I look at the burn pot, you can see the pellets jumping along with the bangs - looks like popcorn!
> 
> ...




Try and lube the cams on the versa grate.. maybe vacuum the hopper when it empties (auger area)


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## krooser (Jan 29, 2010)

Estarrio said:
			
		

> Has anyone had issues with popping or banging sounds from the versa grate?
> 
> I have a York insert that I just installed.  Intermittently, it makes a LOUD popping noise...when I look at the burn pot, you can see the pellets jumping along with the bangs - looks like popcorn!
> 
> ...



I'd pull the burn pot and the grate and make sure it's clean everywhere... don't forget to vacuum in front of the grate area... ash packs into the front and COULD cause it to bind.


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## Estarrio (Jan 29, 2010)

Thanks for the advice - this was actually within the first four hours of operation on a fresh install.  I cleaned everything...took it all apart and restarted and it still popped.  Eventually, it stopped and has been running for the past couple of hours with no issue.  Maybe, I'll get lucky and it won't continue.  I'm still working on my first bag of pellets in the hopper.


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## krooser (Jan 29, 2010)

My St. Croix will pop and crack when it's been restarted after being stone cold... happened tonite since I had my stove off all day (I rarely do that). I even got up from my cozy recliner to see what the hell made "that" noise... I always restart my stove on setting #3 or 4 to get it hot right away then set it to the temp I want.

When doing your regular cleaning make sure you clean those ash traps above the ashpan really good... and keep the area around the versa-grate clean...


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## Xena (Jan 29, 2010)

Estarrio that is messed up.  Never any noises
of the kind from my St Croix.  Hope you get it
resolved.


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## tchdngrnby (Jan 30, 2010)

I experianced that same "pop" with my EXL once or twice, I noted the grate weldment that sits over the shaker plate move upwards at the same time I heard the pop (yes I was sitting in front of the stove staring aimlessly at the flames while enjoying a cold brew).  The cause was a clinker stuck on the shaker plate.  Upon start up, the clinker is obviously solid and interferes with the shaker plate as it slides beneith the grate weldment.  I remedied this by removing the shaker plate and giving it a good scraping and cleaning.  Also scrape the inside edges and the bottom of the grate weldment, it is a clinker attractor.  I use the end of a flat file to scrape and chip away at any build up.  I've since purchased a spare shaker plate so, when I do my cleanings, I just drop the clean plate in the stove and then I can clean the dirty plate at my convienience with proper alcoholic intake.  If the tax man giveth, I plan to obtain a spare grate weldment to reduce my shutdown time when cleaning.

Removal of the shaker plate is a task all in itself.  In preparation to remove the shaker plate, drop your stove down to the #1 setting.  Open your left side door (facing the glass) and watch the versa grate cam lobe position.  Once the low side of the cam is at 3 o'clock, kill the power and let the stove cool.  The shaker plate will now be able to clear the shrowd that covers the ignitor and will lift off of the shaft without any problems.  This is also a good time to slobber on some anti-seize compound to lubricate the versa grate shaft as it is fully retracted.  The lube will be pulled into the bushing once you restart the stove.  A little dab will do ya they say!

Hope this helps,

Paul V


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## tchdngrnby (Jan 30, 2010)

Forgot to add that Krooser's comment that 80% of all stove problems are the result of a dirty stove hits the mark again.


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## two-if-by-sea (Feb 11, 2010)

I uploaded a video of the noise that my St Croix Prescott pellet stove is making:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgI0phh1cQU

I think it's pretty easy to hear the noise, and I'm curious if this is the infamous "VersaGrate" noise:
0:01 --> you can immediately hear the noise
0:15 --> pellets feed - a much quieter noise
0:37 --> small noise
0:37 --> small noise
2:01 --> HUGE noise

The stove was installed 9/2008.  During the 2008-2009 heating season, I had no issues, and never heard the noise.  When I started the stove for the 2009-2010 heating season, almost immediately, the noise started driving me NUTS!  I can hear it from every single room in the house.  The smaller noises documented above are not so bad.  But the long clicking noise at the end is awful.  Let me know if you guys think it's the Versagrate noise.

Thanks!


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## ylomnstr (Feb 11, 2010)

two-if-by-sea said:
			
		

> I uploaded a video of the noise that my St Croix Prescott pellet stove is making:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgI0phh1cQU
> 
> I think it's pretty easy to hear the noise, and I'm curious if this is the infamous "VersaGrate" noise:
> ...



Your sounds are definately different than the original sounds I posted.  Sounds like something is banging.  But if I hear correctly I still hear the versagrate motor running in the background also.  I'm going to try and get a new video with my actual video camera of mine, instead of the cell phone I used.


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## Estarrio (Feb 12, 2010)

two-if-by-sea:  My problem is similar - I am getting a banging but not with the rattle that I seem to hear in your video.  The dealer came by and adjusted, lubed the versa grate components but the problem has resurfaced...will be calling him back to check it out.


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## ylomnstr (Feb 12, 2010)

Estarrio said:
			
		

> two-if-by-sea:  My problem is similar - I am getting a banging but not with the rattle that I seem to hear in your video.  The dealer came by and adjusted, lubed the versa grate components but the problem has resurfaced...will be calling him back to check it out.



The rattle is definately the versagrate motor.  You can lube it all you want, but it comes back.  The banging I was getting early in the season, but haven't heard it lately.  Seems to bang when it's first firing up and it's been cold.


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## Xena (Feb 12, 2010)

Knock on wood, I've never heard the loud banging from
mine but did have the annoying rattle.  I disconnected
the versa grate and haven't looked back but - as I recall
someone on here, maybe a few someones, came up
with a remedy involving packing it with grease.
Not worth the bother for me since all is fine without
but for those with a noisy one who think they need a versa grate it might
be a worthwhile mod to try.


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## ylomnstr (Feb 12, 2010)

Xena said:
			
		

> Knock on wood, I've never heard the loud banging from
> mine but did have the annoying rattle.  I disconnected
> the versa grate and haven't looked back but - as I recall
> someone on here, maybe a few someones, came up
> ...



I remember you saying that you disabled it and haven't turned it back on.  I wired a switch into mine so I can shut it off at will, say for example, if I'm watching a really quite movie.  Otherwise I've learned to live with it being loud.  I've been through 2 motors.  I've got a 3rd one sitting which I haven't installed yet, but at least this way, I've got replacements incase the motor ever actually fails.  With the motor running, I see that ash builds up more quickly in the pot, but no other real side effects.


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## Xena (Feb 12, 2010)

ylomnstr I posted the above more for the two new
folks who showed up here in this thread yesterday
and today.   ;-)


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## Latent (Feb 13, 2010)

ylomnstr said:
			
		

> You definately have to turn the volume up to hear it on the video, but you guys MUST hear the grinding/rattling sound in the first video.  There is no sound in the 2nd video other than the "thump" sound which is just the stove settling as it heats up since it's the first burn this year.
> 
> Here's some info on the motors.  The first motor has no sticker on it like the 2nd and 3rd one do giving model info, but it does have the same MK VF stamp on it, so I assume the same company made the first one.
> 
> ...



After reading everyone's messages I did something different last year. I pulled the motor and pumped grease through the hole the motor shaft was in. I purchased a timer that turns on the vg motor every 60 minutes for 5 minutes each hour ( Farmtek timer 
# 102719). The noise is still there but a little less and not on all the time just the 5 minutes each hour. I am running more air then normal (combustion air) and found that it helped removing ash from the combustion area. I will be replacing the motor and gear assembly with a heavier model. I believe that the vg motor assembly helps but what a bad design.


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