# Need FACTS on wood drying times



## cottonwoodsteve (Oct 23, 2011)

I would like to know where to get some wood seasoning facts.
All I see and hear is, â€œage it one year minimum, three years is betterâ€.
This sounds like a bunch of bunk that just gets repeated because nobody has any facts.

My Questions are;
Since most of the moisture comes out of the end grain, how does the length of a split influence the drying time? There is probable a big time difference between a 15 inch long split and a 20 inch long split drying.

What is ratio of moisture leaving end verses sideways? This would also answer does width of split greatly change the time.

How does average ambient humidity affect drying time?

How does temperature of wood affect drying time?

When log moisture is frozen does it stop the process?

My concerns are there is probably a 6 to 1 difference in seasoning times around country.

Lets analyse two scenarios;
#1
Southwest location.
15 inch slong plits
Summer day ambient over 100 F
Low humidity
100% sunshine most days.
Wood stored in direct sunlight. Therefore at 130 F surface temperature.
Longer warmer winter days.
Winter daytime above freezing.

#2
Upper Midwest
20 inch splits
Summer ambient 80 F
High humidity
Frequent clouds and thunderstorms
Wood stored in shed out of sunlight so only at air temp.
Short cold winter days.
Winter daytime below freezing most of the time.

If you look at solar heating or solar panel charts there is about a 4 to 1 difference around the country.
Add to this great humidity differences and shade verses sun.

Bases on all of the above differences, how can we make generic statements of wood aging times?
Can we get some facts on the subject?

I keep my wood, 15 inches long, outside with a clear plastic top cover. It is 100 to 110 for most of the summer. The wood gets up to 130 F in low humidity.
My guess is in 3 summer months the wood will age as much as it would take a year for 20 inch wood, in Minnesota, in a wood shed.


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## Woody Stover (Oct 23, 2011)

cottonwoodsteve said:
			
		

> All I see and hear is, â€œage it one year minimum, three years is betterâ€.
> This sounds like a bunch of bunk that just gets repeated because nobody has any facts.
> _I think that these times are good rules of thumb, applicable to most areas of the country. They may be a bit conservative for many areas, but better safe than sorry. Around here, I hear three years mainly in reference to Red Oak, cut fresh, which is the slowest-drying wood AFAIK. Differences can even be very local. If one person lives on top of a hill where there's wind, his wood will dry faster than his neighbor's, a quarter-mile away, who lives in the valley._
> 
> ...


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## CTYank (Oct 23, 2011)

Steve, 
Since the questions you ask involve core activities of the lumber industry and their profit/production, you might guess that the lumber-drying process gets a lot of study there. You'd be correct.
Some of this info gets published- not hard to find. Some of it, resulting from gummint-sponsored research, is open to the public.
Part of the fun of wood-burning is searching this out, and experimentally confirming or extending it, for your situation.
Not packaged in a silver-bullet that I know of. Enjoy.


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## jimbom (Oct 23, 2011)

For starters:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_drying

Using this as a starting point and the regression coefficients for red oak, I have written a spreadsheet for my oak.  I can predict pretty well with controlled conditions.  When the wood is outside exposed to the elements, then the accuracy wanes.  Too many variables and not enough time or interest in quantifying each variable. 

Everybody loves facts, but facts have variables and variables have detractors.


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## peakbagger (Oct 23, 2011)

Roam around on wood web.com. There is a drying forum and a lot of older articles on wood drying.


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## muncybob (Oct 23, 2011)

JimboM said:
			
		

> For starters:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_drying
> 
> Using this as a starting point and the regression coefficients for red oak, I have written a spreadsheet for my oak.  I can predict pretty well with controlled conditions.  When the wood is outside exposed to the elements, then the accuracy wanes.  Too many variables and not enough time or interest in quantifying each variable.
> ...



Jim, would love to see that spreadsheet!


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## SolarAndWood (Oct 23, 2011)

I find the facts interesting but am much more interested in confidence intervals.  I know that 18" good sized splits in an uncovered pile in my location will be dry in 3 years.  Before I was three plus years ahead, I split smaller and stacked in single rows so that I knew I would have enough dry wood to make it through the winter.  The further I get ahead, the bigger I split.


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## red oak (Oct 23, 2011)

Keep in mind that whatever facts you come across are likely to vary for your situation depending on any number of variables (temp, wind patterns, type of wood, size of splits, etc) so take any facts you come across with a grain of salt.  If you really want facts for your situation I would recommend getting a moisture meter and keeping some data of your own.  That way you can be certain that the info is right for you and not someone in a much cooler or wetter climate.


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## jimbom (Oct 23, 2011)

muncybob said:
			
		

> JimboM said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I PMd you.


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## Kenster (Oct 23, 2011)

cottonwoodsteve said:
			
		

> I would like to know where to get some wood seasoning facts.
> All I see and hear is, â€œage it one year minimum, three years is betterâ€.
> This sounds like a bunch of bunk that just gets repeated because nobody has any facts.



I don't know, Steve, but this came across as pretty demanding.  For the vast majority of us, rules of thumb are good enough.  
There are too many variables with hundreds of species of trees,  climates and weather, even elevation,  to come up with a bible for drying times.   To declare years of experience mere "bunk" and say that "nobody has any facts" is rather insulting.   If 'nobody has any facts' why are you insisting that the members of this forum give you the facts and/or do your research for you.  What are you looking for?  A spread sheet that gives you the exact time in days and hours to dry a specific species of tree?   Let us know how that works out for you.  Feel free to share your data when you complete your dissertation.  There are probably folks here who DO have all the answers, but the answers only apply to their location and the type of wood they burn.  It will have no bearing on your own situation.  

I'm thinking most of us are not _nearly_ so retentive, anal or otherwise, in our wood handling, drying and burning techniques.  

The members here go out of their way to help, offer advice and critique, and to share our good fortunes or give a pat on the back when appropriate.   Lighten up a little, relax, do some reading, and enjoy the experience.   We don't give college credit for the learning experiences gained here.

Cheers!

Kenster


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## SolarAndWood (Oct 23, 2011)

Kenster said:
			
		

> We don't give college credit for the learning experiences gained here.



No, but I would have appreciated a GED after my first season without a sizzler :lol:


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## IanDad (Oct 23, 2011)

I don't think you will get hard facts unless you consult lab results. Battenkiller is leading the charge with this kind of information, but they are "lab" results nonetheless and may have little to do with your particular situation. Basic premises found here are VERY sound though. You could do worse than to just adjust the conventional wisdom found here to your in situ conditions.

I have had wonderful results following the basic guidelines found here, both in a reduction in the amount of wood burned and the status of my chimney liner. And yes, I just covered my wood in the last few weeks


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## yanksforever (Oct 23, 2011)

Kenster said:
			
		

> cottonwoodsteve said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ditto Kenster


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## Battenkiller (Oct 23, 2011)

JimboM said:
			
		

> I PMd you.



Hey, PM me, too, I'd love to play with that. :cheese:


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## Exmasonite (Oct 23, 2011)

well, if you want to get down to the scientific nitty gritty of drying times, there are going to be WAY too many variables to control.  This year, for instance, being a very wet year and all the talk of a muted fall given higher moisture content in leaves/trees would probably mean a fresh cut tree would likely need more drying time than a tree freshly cut in a drier year.  How much?  who knows... I think the 1-2 year drying time for most woods is a good guideline to prevent problems.  Oak, probably tack a year on to those numbers.  
There's probably a LOT of info out there on wood drying but keep in mind that everybody's starting point is different... an oak in the NW isn't the same as an oak in the SE.  

Good luck!


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## Battenkiller (Oct 23, 2011)

Kenster said:
			
		

> If 'nobody has any facts' why are you insisting that the members of this forum give you the facts and/or do your research for you.
> 
> There are probably folks here who DO have all the answers, but the answers only apply to their location and the type of wood they burn.  It will have no bearing on your own situation.



Bravo

Yeah, like none of us know anything.  Bottom line is I can give you all the scientific studies and drying theory you can wrap your mind around, but if you want specifics you are going to have to figure those out on your own.  

FWIW the above Wiki link to "Wood Drying" is a nice, concise, and scientific treatment to the theories behind it all, but it won't help you any more than simply knowing the EMC in your area.  Since drying rates are in a linear relationship to RH, and EMC is directly related to average RH in your area, just do the math.  If you don't know how, just ask that question and I or several others here can help you figure it out, but don't go discounting time-honored rules-of-thumb as bunk.  They work as well as anything else in the real world, the rest is just for inquiring minds that want to know why they work.  Experience definitely counts.  

Even in a lab setting, you need a lot of experience just to tell if what you are observing is a real effect or merely artifact.  You also need tons of real-life experience to develop effective experimental designs, calibrate machinery, optimize the methodology, interpret the statistics correctly, and present them in a cohesive manner.


That said, here's another very informative contribution recently posted by another member.  It's from those good old boys at the Forestry Service, and it contains 144 pages of goodies (facts, tables, charts, theory, advice, etc).  If you get lost, come back with specific questions and we will try to address them as best as we morons are able to. ;-P 


http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr118.pdf


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## cottonwoodsteve (Oct 23, 2011)

The last post by Inferno had a good link.
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr118.pdf
Lots of detailed info that I don't have time to digest right now but one thing stood out.
There is a map of the east US area with drying times. I assume this takes into account average temperature, humidity, and other details. This is the type of info that is very important but nobody seems to care about.
The map shows some places you can dry wood in 4 months that would take 12 months in other places.
I assume if I could find a map like that for the dryer western US it would be even more extreme compared to the east US.
So this confirms my concerns. There is a 3 to 1 difference in the cooler more humid parts of the US. Imagine what it would be if it included the dryer west parts. Maybe easily a 6 to 1 difference, 8 to 1 difference?

Lets take even the conservative 3 to 1 difference. If I cut some Oak or Eucalyptus in the spring, leave it outside in an exposed area with some wind, at 100 to 110 F, it will probably be ready to burn by November. If I had money I would cut a controlled block, and get a moisture meter. Then send half of the controlled block to the long drying time area and have someone there age it and test it. They we could graph the moisture comparison.

It is easy to find charts for gardening and solar energy. Gardening is broken down into zones 1 thru 9. What we need is a simular wood burners map with wood aging time zones 1 thru 9, plus a multiplier for stored inside or outside direct exposure.

This is the whole point I was getting at. There is probable easily a 6 to 1 difference in drying times across the US. That's why I got tired of always hearing one size fits all statements.

I live in the upper central valley of California. It gets about 40 inches of rain a year mostly in winter. For 3 months in the summer it is hot and dry. Always over 100 F, lots of 105 F, some 110 F and one or two peaks of 112 to 115 F. Very low humidity. It probably drys wood pretty darn fast.


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## BrowningBAR (Oct 23, 2011)

cottonwoodsteve said:
			
		

> The last post by Inferno had a good link.
> http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr118.pdf
> Lots of detailed info that I don't have time to digest right now but one thing stood out.
> There is a map of the east US area with drying times. I assume this takes into account average temperature, humidity, and other details. This is the type of info that is very important but nobody seems to care about.
> ...




Bunk!


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## rdust (Oct 24, 2011)

cottonwoodsteve said:
			
		

> This is the whole point I was getting at. There is probable easily a 6 to 1 difference in drying times across the US. That's why I got tired of always hearing one size fits all statements.



I never take that away from most seasoning conversations.  Most of us say there are a lot of variables and once you have a season or two under your belt you'll know how long it takes for YOU to season your wood.  One season of higher than normal RH, colder temps, warmer temps can change everything.  

Starting out the "get a couple years ahead" is a sound advice imo.  This is wood seasoning this isn't brain surgery, give it two-three years and not matter what it'll probably be good to go.


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## Battenkiller (Oct 24, 2011)

cottonwoodsteve said:
			
		

> I live in the upper central valley of California. It gets about 40 inches of rain a year mostly in winter. For 3 months in the summer it is hot and dry. Always over 100 F, lots of 105 F, some 110 F and one or two peaks of 112 to 115 F. Very low humidity. It probably drys wood pretty darn fast.



I believe it. 

Average RH in my area is close to 80% year round. In your area it is about 20% RH for most of the year.  Lucky you. Wood will thoretically dry four times as fast as it will here just because of the difference in RH alone.  Your climate in the summer is just about like my basement in the middle of the winter, only hotter.  

Dense wood like oak, hickory, and hard maple will dry down to 20% MC in three weeks in my basement when cut 18" and split 4-6".  Yours should dry even faster. 

As for split length, wood dries 10 to 15 times as fast from the ends as it does from the sides, depending on species.  Cutting wood shorter also reduces the amount of case hardening that will trap moisture in the wood for a longer time. 

Is this helpful?


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## Kenster (Oct 24, 2011)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

> As for split length, wood dries 10 to 15 times as fast from the ends as it does from the sides, depending on species.  Cutting wood shorter also reduces the amount of case hardening that will trap moisture in the wood for a longer time.



Okay, then.  I'm confused.   I always thought it would dry much faster, or more efficiently, from the sides.  If this is not the case, why do we split?


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## cottonwoodsteve (Oct 24, 2011)

Why do we split if it doesn't affect drying time?
To make it easier to carry, to make it fit through the stove door. and it lights off quicker.
The image below shows that even if I cut it into 15 inch length I could not lift it and it wouldn't fit into the house door much less the wood stove door.


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## Kenster (Oct 24, 2011)

That goes against every thing I've ever read and experienced.   Virtually every post about drying wood says that the wood does not start drying out until it is split.  That rounds can be stacked for years but will lose very little moisture until they are split.    

Just to clarify, you're saying that a 12 inch round, for example, will dry out quicker if left in the round than it will if it is split into halves or quarters?  That just makes no sense to me.  It's as if I've just been told that the world is flat after all.


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## Battenkiller (Oct 24, 2011)

Kenster said:
			
		

> Just to clarify, you're saying that a 12 inch round, for example, will dry out quicker if left in the round than it will if it is split into halves or quarters?  That just makes no sense to me.



Not what I said at all. Wood dries from all exposed surfaces.  Fastest from the ends, slowest through the bark. Splitting exposes the inner wood and also dramatically increases the surface area exposed to drying forces.  It also decreases the sectional thickness.  This reduces the distance that water within the split has to diffuse to reach the air touching the wood surface.

It makes perfect sense to split wood to decrease the drying time.  However, it is a fallacy that bucked rounds won't dry unless split.  They will, but since they are only drying from the ends the drying will proceed measurably slower than if it is split.


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## Kenster (Oct 24, 2011)

Lord, I thought the world as I knew it was coming to an end.  Thanks for clarifying BK.  When you said that wood dries faster through the ends than through the "sides" I thought you meant the inside split sides, rather than the bark.  

I can sleep soundly tonight knowing that all is right with the world (except the part where Cottonwood Steve says the only reason we need to split wood is to make it more portable.)


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## cottonwoodsteve (Oct 24, 2011)

Battenkiller says it evaporates from the end 15 times greater than the side grain. He did not say nothing evaporates from side grain. 
If you take a clear piece of plastic and cover a few week old split, the plastic will immediately fog up in the shape of the triangular end but absolutely no moisture shows on the side. I can't tell if it is 15 to 1 but it is a very dramatic difference in the early stages of drying.
So Battenkiller's info and my experiments show that splitting may not be as important as people think. Does it help, yes, but not that much. There may be conditions where cutting a small round a few inches shorter may be even better than splitting a longer piece. Just speculating here.
But then there is still the transport problem. So most will need to split no matter what.

Lot's of good info coming in. We may all learn something.

I think what was bothering me was making blanket statements about wood drying is like making blanket statements about planting corn. When should I plant corn? In the upper Mid West planting time is mid May. In some part of the South West mid May is called harvest time, before the dry heat kills everything.


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## jimbom (Oct 24, 2011)

cottonwoodsteve said:
			
		

> ...When should I plant corn?....


I know this one:

Plant your corn when oak leaves are the size of a squirrel's ear.  Works everywhere.


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## cottonwoodsteve (Oct 24, 2011)

Interesting, I will have to pay attention to the size of the oak leaves this spring . It may make sense and automatically adjust for that exact years weather.
Most big commercial farms in California are in areas that don't have Oak trees. So that's why it may not be a common saying here.

We are learning a lot here!


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## jebatty (Oct 24, 2011)

Interesting discussion but doesn't really help much to get my firewood dry. Cut, split, stack, cover with corrugated steel allowing air flow, wait two years -- ready to go.

For the FACTS, need precise, by the minute, daily temperature, humidity, wind, cover; then this is impacted by each split, proximity to other splits, mice buidling nests in the stacks and blocking air flow; then the precise dimensions of each split, knot content, species, bark cover, surface texture; then add in all other known and unknown variables; then need to pull each split from the stack when the facts show that it has reached a target moisture content -- might be better to wait 2 years, drink beer, and cut some more wood for year 3.


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## Battenkiller (Oct 24, 2011)

jebatty said:
			
		

> Interesting discussion but doesn't really help much to get my firewood dry. Cut, split, stack, cover with corrugated steel allowing air flow, wait two years -- ready to go.
> 
> For the FACTS, need precise, by the minute, daily temperature, humidity, wind, cover; then this is impacted by each split, proximity to other splits, mice buidling nests in the stacks and blocking air flow; then the precise dimensions of each split, knot content, species, bark cover, surface texture; then add in all other known and unknown variables; then need to pull each split from the stack when the facts show that it has reached a target moisture content -- might be better to wait 2 years, drink beer, and cut some more wood for year 3.



I don't think Steve is asking for that kind of precision any more than a farmer needs to know exactly when to plant each particular corn seed, or how deep, or how much water it needs each minute, ect.  He is just looking for a less generalized way of quoting drying times. 

In other words, why wait 2 years for your wood to dry when you know it will dry to 20% in your climate in about 3 weeks?


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## Battenkiller (Oct 24, 2011)

Kenster said:
			
		

> Lord, I thought the world as I knew it was coming to an end.  Thanks for clarifying BK.  When you said that wood dries faster through the ends than through the "sides" I thought you meant the inside split sides, rather than the bark.



Sorry to disturb your future sleep, but that is exactly what I meant. Yes, it has been shown that boards dry 10-15 times faster through the end grain than through the lateral faces.  Every kiln operator and lumberman in the world knows that fact, why should wood behave differently just because you cut it short and split it?

The primary reason why split wood dries faster is that by splitting it you expose more surface area.  

For example, take a 24" round that is  18" long and strip it of bark to expose the bare wood.  It has an outer surface area of 1357 sq.in. on the sides of the cylinder and 905 sq.in. on the ends.  If I take the low figure of 10X the drying rate from the ends, this round will lose about seven times as much water from the ends as it does from the sides. 

Now split it in half. You have increased the lateral suface area by 432 sq.in.  Split those halves and you gain another 432 sq.in. of drying area.  Split those in half and you gain another 864 sq.in.  You still have the same surface area exposed on the ends, but you now have 3 1/2 times the lateral surface area that you started with. 

Then you have to consider the diffusion of water molecules across the grain.  In the round, a molecule of water in the center had to travel 12" to gain freedom into the surrounding air.  In a 4" thick split it only needs to travel 2".  

So there are at least two important reasons to split wood to increase the drying rate, but it will always be that for a given surface area water will leave the wood 10-15 times as fast as an equal size surface area on the sides.


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## SolarAndWood (Oct 24, 2011)

With the bark on, is it effectively 0 from the sides?  Does that explain why you sometimes see sizzle between the bark and wood of what otherwise appears to be a dry split?


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## krex1010 (Oct 24, 2011)

Asking how long it takes to season wood is like asking how long to BBQ a pork shoulder, the only reliable answer is , it's done when it's done.  There are so many variables that affect the season time, temperature, humidity, wind and sun exposure, species, split size.  There are no hard facts, it's seasoned when it's seasoned, and even defining "seasoned" is up for discussion.  Thats why we go by general rules, under most conditions and most species, split and stacked with room for good airflow and good sun exposure, a year in those conditions will generally give good burning wood.  There is no recipie, if you need a recipie, bake a cake, or heat with oil Lol happy burning!


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## Battenkiller (Oct 24, 2011)

SolarAndWood said:
			
		

> With the bark on, is it effectively 0 from the sides?  Does that explain why you sometimes see sizzle between the bark and wood of what otherwise appears to be a dry split?



Effectively zero?  I don't know about that, but I suspect it is a lot slower.  What you see coming from between the bark and sapwood might also be rain water that wicked underneath the loosening bark.  Of course, I know that you season your wood in a shed, totally protected from the elements.  ;-P


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## benjamin (Oct 24, 2011)

If Steve hadn't noticed, the members of this forum are concentrated in the Northeast, and the Midwest.  Our climate conditions and woods are similar enough that rules of thumb are close enough.  Most of us don't cut a lot of Eucalyptus.

Also, you'll notice that there isn't a forum dedicated to air conditioning on this site.  Air conditioning is a way of life in some parts of the country.  For most of us, the lack of air conditioning would mean a week or two of discomfort most years.  

Of course this doesn't answer any of your questions, but here are some tips that might help you figure out whether you need to pay more attention to your wood drying process.


If your neighbors own snow plows, then you might need to worry about drying your wood.  
If your neighbors own swamp coolers then you probably don't need to worry about drying your wood.

If you know precisely how long it takes for your wood species to get "punky", then you just might need to worry about drying your wood.
If you cut wood species known for fueling catastrophic wildfires, then you probably don't need to worry about drying your wood.

If most of the birds you see can swim, then you might need to worry about drying your wood.
If most of the birds you see go "bee-beep" and have legs that turn quickly in a circle while running from coyotes dropping anvils, then you probably don't need to worry about drying your wood.


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## SolarAndWood (Oct 24, 2011)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

> What you see coming from between the bark and sapwood might also be rain water that wicked underneath the loosening bark.  Of course, I know that you season your wood in a shed, totally protected from the elements.  ;-P



lol, I'd buy that.  I'm not sure I have ever seen it from splits from the shed, just splits that come direct from the heap.  If it weren't for snow and ice, they would all come direct from the heap :coolsmirk:


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## jimbom (Oct 24, 2011)

benjamin said:
			
		

> ...some tips that might help you figure out whether you need to pay more attention to your wood drying process...



 :lol: Classic.

How about:  If your landscaping is succulent and stone, you don't need to worry about drying your wood.


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## jatoxico (Oct 24, 2011)

cottonwoodsteve said:
			
		

> Battenkiller says it evaporates from the end 15 times greater than the side grain. He did not say nothing evaporates from side grain.
> If you take a clear piece of plastic and cover a few week old split, the plastic will immediately fog up in the shape of the triangular end but absolutely no moisture shows on the side. I can't tell if it is 15 to 1 but it is a very dramatic difference in the early stages of drying.
> So Battenkiller's info and my experiments show that splitting may not be as important as people think. Does it help, yes, but not that much. There may be conditions where cutting a small round a few inches shorter may be even better than splitting a longer piece. Just speculating here.
> But then there is still the transport problem. So most will need to split no matter what.
> ...



I personally have learned nothing new that has not already been covered here at length. The only blanket statements I heard were made by the OP.


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## Battenkiller (Oct 24, 2011)

SolarAndWood said:
			
		

> lol, I'd buy that.  I'm not sure I have ever seen it from splits from the shed, just splits that come direct from the heap.  If it weren't for snow and ice, they would all come direct from the heap :coolsmirk:



And that BBK would just eat up that sizzle like it was an aperitif. ;-) 

BTW,  rumor has it that your heap is almost all the way to Saratoga by now.  If it gets any bigger I'm gonna start sneaking some splits off you in the middle of the night. :lol:


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## SolarAndWood (Oct 24, 2011)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

> BTW,  rumor has it that your heap is almost all the way to Saratoga by now.  If it gets any bigger



I'm on cruise control now that I know how long it takes to dry bigger splits in the heap with reasonable certainty and am far enough ahead to maintain it.  For my situation, that is 30-40 cord.  For the OP, it sounds like it is more like half a cord.


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## pdxdave (Oct 24, 2011)

I've noticed a general trend where anytime someone posts a thread asking for some real specific drying information, it's because they have a pile of wood that's been split for 4 months that they want to start burning next weekend and need forum approval.


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## cottonwoodsteve (Oct 24, 2011)

pdxdave
I am not looking for approval for a quick burn.
What I am looking for if facts. I am trying to figure out why everybody keeps saying I need multi year drying times, and split some exact size. I want to know what is the advantage of all of this. 
If you remember the rule even doctors said for the last 100 years. Never go swimming within one hour of eating lunch or you will get sever musclel cramps. Recently some research group studdied this. There was no original test data to be found and their experiments could not produce the cramping results. I wasted a lot of time in my youth because if this "old wives tale". Basically I don't want to split and dry exact times and methods unless I know why and what is the real results.

Summing up BK heavy math brought up a point I did not think of.
His data and my experiments say nothing much comes out of the sides % wise.
In simple round numbers, ten times more comes out of the end than the sides per square inch.
But the sides may have 10 times more square inches of surface area. 
Or another way of looking at it, the sides don't emit much moisture per square inch but the sides have lots more square inches of area.
Excellent info. I just never thought in emissions per square inch.

Splitting a large slit in two increases the side area but the end total is still the same. So therefore it will dry much quicker because even though the sides don't emit much per square inch, you just doubled the side area.

So splitting speeds up the drying time. Splitting in smaller pieces speeds it up even faster.

Now I am making an educated guess here;
Long multi year seasoning times probably are not too sensitive to exact processing time to exact burning time. In a real short time I thingk exact times are more important. 
If I cut and split in June it is very hot and dry.
My wood is ready to go in 3 months easily. Actually probably in 3 weeks! 
If I cut and split in November, cold damp and rainy, it might take 8 months or more because nothing will really start drying until spring.

Question for JimboM;
For the corn planting part, I can measure the emerging Oak leaves but how do you get a squirrel to stand still to measure his ears :>)


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## krex1010 (Oct 24, 2011)

I don't believe you need multiple years to season wood, generally speaking. If stored properly and split size isn't extremely large then if you give your wood 12 months you are generally in good shape, you may not be at 15% mc, but you should be at least close to 20% which I think is burnable.  There are exceptions to this but I have oak that is about 22% mc , that seasoned for a little over a year, and if I need it I'll burn it this year, and it will burn fine .  There are no facts or procedures that will work for everyone in every situation.


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## Battenkiller (Oct 24, 2011)

cottonwoodsteve said:
			
		

> For the corn planting part, I can measure the emerging Oak leaves but how do you get a squirrel to stand still to measure his ears :>)



Put out some corn for him.


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## Battenkiller (Oct 24, 2011)

BTW Cottonwood, I like your avatar photo.  Been there, done that.  Actually, 'twas my first experiment.  :coolcheese:


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## jebatty (Oct 24, 2011)

> cottonwoodsteve: I am not looking for approval for a quick burn.
> What I am looking for is facts....  If I cut and split in June it is very hot and dry.
> My wood is ready to go in 3 months easily. Actually probably in 3 weeks!
> If I cut and split in November, cold damp and rainy, it might take 8 months or more because nothing will really start drying until spring.



If you are looking for facts, and if you think you have found them in these posts, then you're not reading very well. Perhaps your best source of information will be your neighbors who burn wood, as they live in climatic conditions most similar to yours. Obviously, since mine is northern Minnesota, where I live there is not a single fresh cut tree that ever would be ready to burn in my wood stove or in my gasifier in 3 weeks, and I haven't found anything that would be ready in 3 months of hot, dry weather. Good luck to you in your search for facts. For me, I will cut, split, stack, cover, and burn in two years. And that's a fact.

But since you already know that if you 





> cut and split in June it is very hot and dry [and your] wood is ready to go in 3 months easily. Actually probably in 3 weeks!


, then why bother asking for any more info from the well meaning people in this forum. It is obvious you already know everything you need to know about drying wood. Keep the home fires burning.


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## Backwoods Savage (Oct 24, 2011)

Methinks it is best I stay out of this one. I could tear it apart too much and start something nasty.


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## cottonwoodsteve (Oct 24, 2011)

I think benjimen brings up a good point. 
Most of the people in the forums live in areas were the weather is all the same and the wood is all the same.
The temperatures, humidity, and snow vary relatively little across the whole area.
You family has lived there for generations and developed it's own wood cutting and drying methods over the years.
It is sacrilege to question it and it probably really works great.

Anything Denver and west has a much great weather and wood differences. 

There are a lot of people in the west that burn for heat but I guess they are not the type that join forums.

50 miles south it never snows. Here we get a dusting of snow once in the winter. 50 miles east they get 30 to 40 feet! Very different wood drying weather.
And the wood in the state varies just as much.
Most on the forum burn Oak, Maple etc.
Here we burn Oak, Eucalyptus, Pine. In some of parts of California they burn Avocado, Almond and Orange. 

Chimney fires are never a problem because earthquakes knock down the chimney way before the creosote ever builds up. 
OK, I'm  pulling your leg on that one.


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## SolarAndWood (Oct 24, 2011)

There is a lot of variation here too.  I would never get away with what I do at home at our camp.  Home is on a windy open ridge, camp is in the middle of mature forest.  Home dries in a heap, camp dries eventually stacked in an open sided shed.


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## quads (Oct 25, 2011)

Backwoods Savage said:
			
		

> Methinks it is best I stay out of this one. I could tear it apart too much and start something nasty.


Yup!  

For me, part of the fun of heating with wood is the simplicity of it.....cut, split, stack, forget about it for 2, 3, 4, or whatever years and then burn it.  Most days there are far too many things that require a lot of thought, pieces of dead trees that I'm just going to throw in the fire eventually is not one of them.

But hey, to each his own!  I guess ciphering and analyzing can be a hobby in itself.


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## onetracker (Oct 25, 2011)

quads said:
			
		

> Backwoods Savage said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## fossil (Oct 25, 2011)

cottonwoodsteve said:
			
		

> ...Most of the people in the forums live in areas were the weather is all the same and the wood is all the same.
> The temperatures, humidity, and snow vary relatively little across the whole area.  You family has lived there for generations and developed it's own wood cutting and drying methods over the years.  It is sacrilege to question it and it probably really works great.
> 
> Anything Denver and west has a much great weather and wood differences.
> ...



Not so, Steve.  Your profile says you joined the forums in December of 2010.  I'd have thought that would be time enough to become familiar with the geographic diversity of our membership (currently nearly 23,000).  We have _lots_ of members from the Rockies and points west of the Rockies.  We have members in the Southwest, the Midwest, the Southeast, Downeast up in the Yukon, down in the desert...all over the place, living in all diffferent climate zones, from mild to severe, burning every species of wood you can think of (and some you can't).  We by no means all live where our families have been for generations.  Questioning the old time ways and debunking the myths about woodburning is part of the fun we have here together.  Toss out your stack of pre-printed labels for people you don't know and stick around...you'll see what I'm talking about in time.  Rick


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## cottonwoodsteve (Oct 25, 2011)

I think what was confusing me was words like long Aging, Curing and Seasoning times.
Nobody really says it is just drying. 
Aging, Curing or Seasoning cheese and wine it goes through a definite chemical change. 
Try and speed up the process and it doesn't work. So you need long times.
You get no heat energy out of sugarcane juice, but Age it into a 151 proof Rum and it will burn very nicely.
One of the things I have learned here is wood does not change its chemical makeup. There is no Aging, Curing, or Seasoning.
Nothing magical. 
It just drys.
It starts out wet wood pulp and turns into dry wood pulp. No Aging, Curing or Seasoning. No significant chemical change. The more you heat or less humidity, the quicker it drys. 

It just drys.

Like the kid that was excited about getting a job at the Motor Vehicle Department. He was excited about working around "motor vehicles". On the first day he found "motor vehicles" were cars, .....just cars.


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## BlankBlankBlank (Oct 25, 2011)

There is technical science and then there is applied science.  Both are valuable and very necessary.  Sharing the details with other people about what you do and how you do it can sometimes be very hard, especially when not used to that level of sharing.  I could ask Erin Rodgers, QB of Green Bay Packers, a question about his technique and how I might apply that technique to my game.  He might have something helpful to say or more than likely he'd not have a darn clue what to say that would make a difference for my game.

The applied science found extensively on this site provide very good parameters to begin the process of drying in your area.  Oak takes longer than silver maple or ash.  How much longer in Maine?  How much longer in Wisconsin?  How much longer in Arizona?  I don't know.  But it does take longer.  I read on the forums that oak takes 2-3 years.  I figure those numbers are probably right, especially considering silver maple does better when it seasons for about a year.  Given that, I should definitely expect oak to take at least two.  So, I'm going to age oak for 2 years and then put a moisture meter on it.  If it's over 20%, then it ages a little longer.  How much longer?  I don't know.  But if it's at 21%, I'll give it a couple months longer and test.  If it's at 25%, I'll just give it another year.

I always take the words of an ole timer to mean a hell of a lot more than some technical manual.  Not because the technical manual is wrong or I'm against science or something.  I love technical manuals.  I take the ole timer's words to have more value because while he might be wrong about one thing or two, he's probably right about a whole lot more.  He's been doin' it a long time.  He knows things.

Unfortunately, I keep getting the sense that we're moving away from the value of ole timer's experience and more highly valuing the lab coat, the briefcase, the degree, etc.  Not me.  I value the ole timer because he's got something to share that will really matter.

Not to mention, the ole timer will, seeing I'm interested, offer me a cup of hot coffee and seat near his fire.  And maybe he'll show me where I can get some of that free wood.  And maybe once in a while the free wood will just happen to be some darn hard oak that when seasoned for maybe 2 or maybe 3 years will burn through the night keeping my a$$ warm.  And my wife will love me more because the heating bill is almost zero.  And my kids will love to help me cut, split, and stack the wood, because they're warm for a change.  They'll see the value that I'm trying to show them, just as I saw the value in that ole timer.


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## jimbom (Oct 25, 2011)

I qualify as an old timer, so I can say this.  Some old timers have one year of experience forty times over.  Some have forty years of experience.


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## Battenkiller (Oct 25, 2011)

JimboM said:
			
		

> I qualify as an old timer, so I can say this.  Some old timers have one year of experience forty times over.  Some have forty years of experience.



And let's not forget those who have forty years of experiments.  :cheese:


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## firefighterjake (Oct 25, 2011)

Don't confuse me by the facts . . . I thrive on ignorance.


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## benjamin (Oct 25, 2011)

JimboM said:
			
		

> I qualify as an old timer, so I can say this.  Some old timers have one year of experience forty times over.  Some have forty years of experience.



Dang, that's a good one.

I was thinking the old timers I know/knew were as likely to tell you to burn green wood because it will last longer, and to only split it if it's too big to fit in the stove.  Most of these old timers burned wood for decades before I was around and probably burned more wood in some years than I will burn in a lifetime.


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## cottonwoodsteve (Oct 27, 2011)

I finally realised part of the  problem.
A year or two ago I listened to an old timer wood stove / chimney guy.
But he was the wrong old timer.
As a side subject when looking at wood stoves I ask about moisture meters. He said something like $150 junk to $350 good.
A 5 second check on Google showed similar. End. It was just not in the budget.
A quick check recently showed same thing but having more time to dig around I found that was way off.
Some are around $30 to $50. Motivated by that I pressed on and found one for $11 from Amazon.(+ $8 for shipping)
Will it be as good as the $350, maybe not. But it is probably just measuring Ohms, so no mater what the price is, it is just a modified Ohm meter. Not rocket science. A regular Ohm meter works, but I don't know how to space probes and calibrate Ohms to moisture %.
I will get it soon but not have much time to mess with it.
Maybe late November I can do a reality check with 2 x 4's wet in the H.D. stack to an extra 2 x 4  dry in shade in my carport for 2 years. 

Handheld MD812 MD-812 Digital Wood Moisture Content Meter with Lcd Display
Sold by: Hisgadget Inc ( thru Amazon)
Condition: new
Quantity: 1
$11.64 each


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## quads (Oct 27, 2011)

cottonwoodsteve said:
			
		

> But it is probably just measuring Ohms, so no mater what the price is, it is just a modified Ohm meter. Not rocket science. A regular Ohm meter works, but I don't know how to space probes and calibrate Ohms to moisture %.


Using a multimeter to measure wood moisture level:  https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/44360/


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## Thistle (Oct 27, 2011)

quads said:
			
		

> Backwoods Savage said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



+1 Yup and me. Its not rocket science.No big deal. I cut,split,stack & forget about it for 1 to 3 yrs,depending on how wet it was originally.Some is dry enough to burn immediately,most needs a year at least.


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## cottonwoodsteve (Nov 17, 2011)

Quick meter measurements, broadly rounded numbers and Oak verses Eucalyptus
The wood;
Eucalyptus dried for 6 months centered on summer.
Eucalyptus dried for 6 weeks in fall.
Oak dried for2 years.
All outside but top covered during rain.

Cut Eucalyptus in early October
Cut down, cut in 15 inch lengths then split 2 weeks later.
After 6 weeks;
Wood in warn but not hot sun. 
10 â€“20% on sunny end. 20 â€“ 30% on shady end
Wood under partial shade tree;
20 â€“ 30 on partial sunny end 25- 35 on totally shady ends 
Bark acts like plastic bag. 20% without and 30% with. Measured near outside of split.
Narrow splits measure much dryer than wide split. This might not be all due to more side area per wood volume. It might be an ohms-per-square type of thing where there is less wood for the current to go throughout. Narrow splits are dryer but probably measure dryer than they really are.

Eucalyptus cut in June;
By September sunny end 0% Shady end near ground 2-3%
Now after many weeks of cooler less dry weather they came up to 2-3% on sunny end and 5 % on shady end. Basically over the last many weeks, dry June wood came up in moisture while wet October wood still went down in moisture.

Measurements show wood in sun dries much faster than wood in partial shade. Obvious, but this means wood in a shed or under eves will take much longer to dry than wood in the open in some climates. This is probably only true in the Southwest and not in high humidity and afternoon thunderstorms of the Midwest summers. 

Other observations;
 2 year dry oak didnâ€™t come up in moisture. So does Oak absorb less from air than Eucalyptus? Or is the Eucalyptus still wicking moisture out from the inside and warm air takes this away quicker than the now cooler air?

Eucalyptus dried 6 months in mostly very dry hot dry weather burns much, much hotter and longer than Oak dried for 2 years.
Eucalyptus, some smaller drier splits, dried for 6 weeks burns about the same as Oak dried for 2 years.

Separate experiment;
2 splits of 6 month Eucalyptus = stove top 450F. 
2 splits of 2 year Oak = stove top 350F

Based on short experiments with my wood in our environment;

Eucalyptus probably only needs to be aged over one summer.
Donâ€™t know about Oak. It has a much different grain / fiber structure. 
If the wood moisture gets down to 0-3% in a few summer months, it probably doesnâ€™t need to be dried for even a year. 
It seems it would be a total waste of time, money and yard space to dry some types of wood for more than one full summer. 
Do I need to dry my Eucalyptus wood for more than a year. No. But I may need to put a sprinkler on it so it doesnâ€™t burst into flames on itâ€™s own after the first year :>)
When another branch breaks on an Oak tree I will do some Oak experiments.


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## ValentineHill (Nov 17, 2011)

Steve, did you split your experiment wood and take the moisture meter reading from the fresh cut (i.e., what was the middle of the piece until right before you split it)? Because that is really the measurement that you need to know. As all of the data suggests, the wood fiber exposed to the air drops down to 20% or less in just a matter of days, but the process of drawing the interior water through the wood to be evaporated takes much longer.  That's why the people that measure water levels over a long period of time on here weigh their wood, rather than split it every time (which you can really only do once in a controlled experiment).

Still, it's great to see that you're doing the right thing -- going out and doing some experiments. Nothing like a bit of science in the morning!

Also, have you seen Skyline's latest on his wood drying experiments from this year? I think you'd really like this thread: https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/83589/ .

Good luck and keep sending in data!


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## cottonwoodsteve (Nov 17, 2011)

No I didn't take measurements immediately as I cut the tree down. Maybe next time I could do it in a more organised fashion.
I didn't have a meter yet when I cut the tree.

Yes I agree that the quick loss might be just the surface loss.That is probably why I noticed a little rebound from 0 back to 3% when the weather cooled.
Still it backs up what the other poster says. Sometimes 3 hot dry months is enough. Will 3 months in winter do much. Probably not.

Another climate experiment I have done indirectly;
Taking the Wall Street Journal on a business trip a few different times.
Hard and crinkly at home in the summer. Soft and supple in the humid Minnesota, Georgia and Florida summer. Then hard and crinkly back home again.
The paper changes it's moisture content greatly depending on location.
My guess is wood will take much longer to dry where the paper is soft and supple.

Also another theory.
If your summer climate doesn't dry the wood very quickly, then it probably almost stops in the winter. So therefore you need another summer to finish it off. That probably means more than one year.  If your climate dries wood very quickly in the summer, then even holding it over the winter isn't going to gain much.
I would say that how much drying gets done in the summer determines how many summers you need.
A guess based on my crude experiments;
Wood cut in June can be dry by October. Wood cut in October will probably need to sit untill next October. Or basically over the hot dry summer. I think counting the needed summers is more important than actual time in years. Cutting it in fall it just adds 9 months of cool weather that doesn't dry much until summer comes. If you have lower temperature, humid summers then you probably need more than one summer to get it done.


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## PapaDave (Nov 18, 2011)

Here's one for 'ya. I've been bucking and splitting some oak logs from a delivery made in May of '09. 
I have found quite a few similar sized rounds w/o bark that once split were obviously of differing moisture content. Some were relatively dry, and others were VERY wet.
Cut at the same time, delivered at the same time, same species, sitting in the same pile for the same amount of time.
Those are facts. 
I've come to the conclusion in my situation, that what I need for drying time for OAK is at least 2 years, and to get it more gooder it should dry even longer. How long?
I don't know exactly, but I don't care exactly.
Some of it will be dry sooner than that. Which ones? I don't have a clue. Which tree or log, again I have no clue, so I put it all together and leave it alone (except for the daily walks to look at all my hard work and future heat) for a couple years.
If you can dry your wood quicker, gooder for you. Sucks for me, so I adjust and adapt.
Those also, are facts. 
Facts alone don't EVER tell the whole story. That's a fact. :lol:


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## cottonwoodsteve (Nov 18, 2011)

It sounds like you just had things in a pile before you split them. The rounds in the bottom center of the pile won't dry as fast as those on the top outside.  Maybe that was the difference before you split them?
My wood seems to be consistent in measurements. So if you have greatly different measurements try to figure out why. Besides how it is stored what was the tree or trees like? A partially dead tree cut in fall will have different starting moisture than a healthy tree cut in spring?

The facts always tell the whole story. It is just we may not understand, and sometimes not wanting to accept facts affects our ability to understand.

If 3/4 of the drying is during the summer and your summers are relatively mild temperatures with high humidity, it will probably take 2 summers worth of drying time.


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## DanCorcoran (Nov 18, 2011)

Just for the record (and to avoid disappointment for those who might want to try it):  aging your sugarcane juice won't produce rum...you need to distill it.  Aging is said to improve the flavor, but doesn't turn juice into rum.


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## cottonwoodsteve (Nov 18, 2011)

I stand corrected.  
I only did rum research in the Caribbean on the consumption end, not the making end.

Test results;
Martineque rum is like paint thinner, Jamacan rum is very mellow. 

Preferd method of testing;
Add some to Coke ( soda type) and consume on warm sandy beach. Testing beach should be located at least 1,000 or more from your work location.


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## begreen (Nov 18, 2011)

That sounds like a short dry time for eucalyptus. Did the wood get resplit and the moisture reading done on the freshly exposed surface of the wood?


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## Battenkiller (Nov 18, 2011)

cottonwoodsteve said:
			
		

> I stand corrected.
> I only did rum research in the Caribbean on the consumption end, not the making end.
> 
> Test results;
> ...



You should do a test on a nice 151 demerara rum from Guyana.  Your Coke will thank you. ;-)


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## jatoxico (Nov 19, 2011)

cottonwoodsteve said:
			
		

> Quick meter measurements, broadly rounded numbers and Oak verses Eucalyptus
> The wood;
> Eucalyptus dried for 6 months centered on summer.
> Eucalyptus dried for 6 weeks in fall.
> ...




Very difficult to get wood this dry.


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## cptoneleg (Nov 19, 2011)

cottonwoodsteve said:
			
		

> I stand corrected.
> I only did rum research in the Caribbean on the consumption end, not the making end.
> 
> Test results;
> ...





   Another Rocket Scientist, I got my fuel Right


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## oldspark (Nov 19, 2011)

cptoneleg said:
			
		

> cottonwoodsteve said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Hows your rocket running these days?


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## cottonwoodsteve (Nov 19, 2011)

In summer average temperature over 100F.
Average humidity 20%
Maybe 1 or 2 thunderstorms in 3 months.

Also remember the wood in the sun easily gets up to 140F when the the outside temp is 100F

So wood temperature well over 100F, 20% humidity.... wood dries in 3 summer months, no problem.

If your temperature is low and humidity is so high the mosquitoes are the size of model airplanes, your wood may taker longer.


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## cptoneleg (Nov 20, 2011)

oldspark said:
			
		

> cptoneleg said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...








   Well I pie are squired afew thangs and came up with---  some secret wood rocket fuel


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