# Lambda Type Owners - Highest Secondary Settings Seen?



## hiker88 (Nov 22, 2012)

Hey everyone - happy Thanksgiving,

It's been a fun month or so getting to know the new boiler.  For you guys with automated units, I'm just curious what kind of secondary settings you see?  

I had a fire this morning and the secondary was at 62% and it flirted briefly with 63%.  The rumbling noise was quite impressive.  It's kind of become a point of interest of mine to see how wide open that secondary will ever get.  So, just curious what others have seen and what I can set my sights on.


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## TCaldwell (Nov 22, 2012)

Secondary output reflects the direct acting controller output and the percentage of secondary air. A output of 63% at high burn is representative of well seasoned wood. The dryer smaller splits or construction wood will give a higher output, and larger and higher mc will require a lower op to maintain setpoint. controller output has no correlation to effiency, a higher controller op does not mean higher or lower effiency, just the percentage of in this example secondary air required to maintain setpoint. well seasoned wood will typically produce high burn outputs between 45-75% range


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## stee6043 (Nov 23, 2012)

TCaldwell said:


> Secondary output reflects the direct acting controller output and the percentage of secondary air. A output of 63% at high burn is representative of well seasoned wood. The dryer smaller splits or construction wood will give a higher output, and larger and higher mc will require a lower op to maintain setpoint. controller output has no correlation to effiency, a higher controller op does not mean higher or lower effiency, just the percentage of in this example secondary air required to maintain setpoint. well seasoned wood will typically produce high burn outputs between 45-75% range


 
This seems a little bit contradictory.  It's generally accepted that burning lower MC wood will indeed increase efficiency of a wood burning appliance.  So if secondary output is closely correlated with wood moisture content wouldn't it then also be an indication of the quality/efficiency of the burn?  If the answer is "no" there must be some voodoo magic happening in these lambda boilers.


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## TCaldwell (Nov 23, 2012)

Steele, It is a generalization you could make, high secondary output= high effiency, however output is dependant on type, size and mc and chosen setpoint. A o2 feedback system calculates a output to meet a chosen setpoint. Effiency primarily driven by o2% and stack temp, for instance if you are humming along at high burn with a setpoint at 6%o2 with a secondary op of 55% with a secondary burn chamber temp of 1800 deg and a flue temp of 300, then you decide you want a higher op, to do this you would need to increase your setpoint to say 7%[ you need a higher secondary op to increase the residual o2 in the fluestream] in doing so your new op will have increased BUT your secondary burn temp will have decreased, flue temp increased along with excess air= lower effiency. what really matters is chosing the correct o2 setpoint for your boiler combustor design by sampling with a portable fluegas analyser. It will calculate on the fly what the effiency is and you can adjust the setpoint to get the highest effiency. the op will adjust to maintain setpoint throught a burn. Wood type has alot to do with op denser woods by nature will tend to burn slower, requiring less op but will burn hotter than some softwoods that require a higher op.


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## EffectaBoilerUser (USA) (Nov 30, 2012)

I have been operating my Effecta Lambda 35kW boiler for 3 years now and have always been impressed with how the primary and secondary dampers automatically adjust from 70/30 with a cold, first started boiler and then by the end of the 5 hour burn they are at 40/60 or as much as 20/80.

Today (per the request of a gentleman in Colorado) I am going to do a burn using 100% kiln dried pine. According to the one I am speaking to in Colorado, the only wood available in his area is very dry pine and other woods. He has tried to burn this wood in several NON LAMBDA controlled gasification boilers with no success. A fixed damper opening boiler allows the combustion to get too violent and causing many problems.

I will post my data logging results of this burn once I have completed it.


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## hiker88 (Nov 30, 2012)

That will be interesting to hear about.


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## mikefrommaine (Nov 30, 2012)

EffectaBoilerUser (USA) said:


> I have been operating my Effecta Lambda 35kW boiler for 3 years now and have always been impressed with how the primary and secondary dampers automatically adjust from 70/30 with a cold, first started boiler and then by the end of the 5 hour burn they are at 40/60 or as much as 20/80.
> 
> Today (per the request of a gentleman in Colorado) I am going to do a burn using 100% kiln dried pine. According to the one I am speaking to in Colorado, the only wood available in his area is very dry pine and other woods. He has tried to burn this wood in several NON LAMBDA controlled gasification boilers with no success. A fixed damper opening boiler allows the combustion to get too violent and causing many problems.
> 
> I will post my data logging results of this burn once I have completed it.



Seriously? I burn almost all pine and often burn a load of only kiln dried construction scraps. No issues.


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## maple1 (Nov 30, 2012)

Yes, first I've heard of that.


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## stee6043 (Nov 30, 2012)

EffectaBoilerUser (USA) said:


> I have been operating my Effecta Lambda 35kW boiler for 3 years now and have always been impressed with how the primary and secondary dampers automatically adjust from 70/30 with a cold, first started boiler and then by the end of the 5 hour burn they are at 40/60 or as much as 20/80.
> 
> Today (per the request of a gentleman in Colorado) I am going to do a burn using 100% kiln dried pine. According to the one I am speaking to in Colorado, the only wood available in his area is very dry pine and other woods. He has tried to burn this wood in several NON LAMBDA controlled gasification boilers with no success. A fixed damper opening boiler allows the combustion to get too violent and causing many problems.
> 
> I will post my data logging results of this burn once I have completed it.


 
Probably a bit of a fish-tale by your Colorado source.  I've burned wood too dry to register on my super-high-dollar Harbor Freight moisture gauge with no issues.  With storage it's actually a bit of a treat to have a wicked hot, wicked fast fire with uber dry wood.  I like my fires like my bouts with stomach flue - fast and violent.


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## EffectaBoilerUser (USA) (Dec 6, 2012)

I spoke with the gentleman again today and he is telling me that were he is located (9,000 ft elevation) the wood is extremely dry and when used in an EKO and Pro Fab's new indoor unit it gasifying too much and the excess gas is causing small explosions in the boilers and smoke is being exhausted out the draft openings. He is telling me that because the draft openings on these units is fixed that he is unable to accurately control the amount of combustion and secondary air going to the boiler. I am hopping to burn a load of kiln dried pine this weekend and data log the entire burn in my Effecta Lambda 35 boiler. Should have something to post on hearth next week!


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## mikefrommaine (Dec 6, 2012)

I know a guy who has a friend that went to college with a guy who is dating a girl who talked to a person in a coffe shop that has an effecta, and he said.... (insert negative criticism of effecta here)


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## maple1 (Dec 6, 2012)

EffectaBoilerUser (USA) said:


> I spoke with the gentleman again today and he is telling me that were he is located (9,000 ft elevation) the wood is extremely dry and when used in an EKO and Pro Fab's new indoor unit it gasifying too much and the excess gas is causing small explosions in the boilers and smoke is being exhausted out the draft openings. He is telling me that because the draft openings on these units is fixed that he is unable to accurately control the amount of combustion and secondary air going to the boiler. I am hopping to burn a load of kiln dried pine this weekend and data log the entire burn in my Effecta Lambda 35 boiler. Should have something to post on hearth next week!


 
Tell him not to stuff the wood box so full.

Do EKOs & Pro Fabs (Empyres?) really not have ANY adjustments on the doors? Mine is likely the most minimalistic gassifier out there, and it has an opening adjustment on the intake door - and one on the secondary chamber.

I don't think your 'experimental' burn will have any correlation with burning pine in Colorado either - and I'd suspect there are some on here doing that successfully now with units from the 'other guys'.


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## willyswagon (Dec 7, 2012)

maple1 said:


> Tell him not to stuff the wood box so full.
> 
> Do EKOs & Pro Fabs (Empyres?) really not have ANY adjustments on the doors? Mine is likely the most minimalistic gassifier out there, and it has an opening adjustment on the intake door - and one on the secondary chamber.
> 
> I don't think your 'experimental' burn will have any correlation with burning pine in Colorado either - and I'd suspect there are some on here doing that successfully now with units from the 'other guys'.


 
Empyre Elite has no adjustments period! That's why I bought it.
As my wife said, If she had to F$%& with adjustments for heat, it would be with the oil boiler thermostat!


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## maple1 (Dec 7, 2012)

Even though mine has adjustments - they're minor. Like a threaded stop on the draft door - set it & forget it.


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## EffectaBoilerUser (USA) (Dec 7, 2012)

Thanks for confirmation regarding no adjustments on the Empyre Elite 100 - at least I know the gentleman in Colorado is telling the truth!

What types of wood are you burning in your Elite 100? How do you like it?

What I was trying to say in my previous post was that most of the currently available wood gasification boilers have little to very minor adjustment and normally this is not a big issue. However, when trying to burn extremely dry pine and other soft woods the fixed primary draft systems tend to consume the wood quicker because they are not able to change/regulate the amount of air going into the primary/secondary chambers (obviously, very dry pine wood requires much less combustion air than a 15-20% MC hardwood).

On Lambda controlled boilers the draft openings can be quickly and easily changed by a key stroke on the control panel. Normally I run my Effecta at a 13% CO2 setting for 15-20% MC hardwood. However, when I get into some much dryer softwood such as pine I lower the CO2 % to 10%. Doing so closes the upper primary draft control more and thus allows less combustion air in the primary chamber. This then allows the pine to burn slower/last longer and provide more BTU output.

Another nice feature of Lambda controlled gasifiers is that there is no by-pass lever to operate. You simply throw in the wood, start the fire and the Lambda system automatically changes the position of the servo controlled dampers (primary and secondary) depending on the outlet CO2%.


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## maple1 (Dec 7, 2012)

If all I was burning was dry pine, I'd just take 10 seconds and thread my draft door stop in from its present wide open location to cut down on primary chamber air, and burn away. Set for the fuel, and forget.

I will admit Lamda controls would likely be beneficial for changing conditions throughout a burn, yes. But I'm all about simplicity. Who knows - maybe someday I'll even have Lambda something-or-other in my basement.

Betchya I can clean my boiler faster than you can yours.


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## __dan (Dec 7, 2012)

hiker88 said:


> Hey everyone - happy Thanksgiving,
> 
> It's been a fun month or so getting to know the new boiler. For you guys with automated units, I'm just curious what kind of secondary settings you see?
> 
> I had a fire this morning and the secondary was at 62% and it flirted briefly with 63%. The rumbling noise was quite impressive. It's kind of become a point of interest of mine to see how wide open that secondary will ever get. So, just curious what others have seen and what I can set my sights on.


 
This thread should go back on track.

I have the same boiler, the Froling FHG-L 20,. First burn was ~ 7 weeks ago at the end of October.

The thread should really sell a few more Frolings, though I have to be careful what I say.

I am set up for HW storage with taps and valves ready in the primary header, but I'm a bit non standard right now and using the 1200 sf, 4", radiant basement slab for storage. I knew this was not enough load for the full burn and was concerned, depending on the Froling's ability to turn down the output. Briefly, I am getting perfect burns with no slumbering and huge turndown. I am injecting 135 deg F and returning 100 to 110 F from the slab at the balance point.

Initially with the factory defaults I did not have enough load and saw some slumbering in the first few days with trial small loads. I considered my options and five minutes of googling delivered the factory code to enter the service menu and have access to changing operating setpoints. No hardware modifying. All I had to do was lower the minimum flue gas temp to 95 deg C (because the slab is not enough minimum load) lower the supply water temp to 73 deg C ( the Froling is slow to modulate above setpoint, it operates substantially higher, usually 80 to 90 C HWS, at minimum load), and raise the slumbering temp to max (20 C above HWS setpoint or 93 C).

Typical burn, I can not load more than halfway. At the end of the burn with only the warm slab for load, it runs 20% primary air, 10% secondary air, 35% draft fan speed, 16% excess oxygen, but it is drafting through the charcoal bed and flue gas is 110 C which is to much for my load, and the HWS temp runs 90 C. Flue gas temp ~ 100 C will get me 80 C HWS temp. The Froling at that point is running on the (programmable) minimum draft fan speed, 35%, minimum primary air at 20%, and well above HWS and flue gas setpoints. Half load burn time is ~ 3 hours.

DHW load plus the basement slab is enough load for the Froling and will pull down the HWS temp to above setpoint at the minimum burn rate.

The Froling is a lot bigger than the Weil McLain 3 section Gold oil. The basement slab load burns the oil.

Although I am sold on storage, it's in the future. I am getting everything I want right now. Unlimited heat and DHW and its very light on fuel. I am burning two 32 gallon Rubbermaid barrels of wood in ~ 3.5 days. About equal to a full 6 cu ft wheelbarrow load for three days. I have three years of cordwood in the yard and am burning the junk first.

I wanted initially quick heat with minimum fuel. Circs start up after ~ 15 minutes and 1 hour later the DHW load drops out and the slab is returning 100 deg F. It goes quickly to minimum load and ~ ten minutes later the Froling has turned down to 35% draft fan speed and 20% primary air. The secondary air always runs at the minimum setpoint of 10% and above minimum excess O2 ~ 12 to 16%. I've seen 50% secondary air only if I open the boiler and poke the coal bed at minimum load.

Payback is ~ 5 years with nice heat.

The Froling is effortless to light, mostly put the wood and paper in, light and walk away. Three minutes. I am burning birch and swamp maple from outside. I am loaded with red and white oak after I burn the junk.


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## willyswagon (Dec 7, 2012)

EffectaBoilerUser (USA) said:


> Thanks for confirmation regarding no adjustments on the Empyre Elite 100 - at least I know the gentleman in Colorado is telling the truth!
> 
> What types of wood are you burning in your Elite 100? How do you like it?
> 
> ...


 

Burning Maple, birch, and the odd beech. I am looking at wood that is between 16-20% on the MM. I have to be carefull with the sizing of the splits if there is not a big heat demand. As your guy in Co stated, if you get alot of gas built up you can get a little wood gas explosion when the fire re ignites. My buddy with the Wood Gunn finds the same thing.

They would like to see the wood between 18-25" in length.
It says in my manual that if you wood is very dry you should keep it 5" dia or more.
If it is high in moisture you should split it less than 5".
If between 19- 25% moisture they say the diameter of the wood is not that important.

Hope this helps. If you would like anything else on the Elite PM me so this one can get back to Lamda controll stuff
Ken.


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## hiker88 (Dec 7, 2012)

_dan

I've been through your thread a couple times.  What does hws stand for please?


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## __dan (Dec 7, 2012)

hiker88 said:


> _dan
> 
> I've been through your thread a couple times. What does hws stand for please?


 
Hot Water Supply - temp right out of the top of the boiler.

One more data point, got my electric bill. Heat and DHW, the Froling with the circs, is exactly $9.46 for the month.


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## EffectaBoilerUser (USA) (Dec 7, 2012)

Ken,

Thanks for the clarification on the type of wood you are burning in your Elite 100 boiler.

A while back I did some temperature measuring and data logging on my Lambda boiler which showed some of the temperature differences with and without the Lambda sensor activated. Since the topic of this post is related to Lambda sensor controlled boilers, I have attached it again to this post to show what the data displays. In addition to lower smoke temperatures and more consistent/tighter temperature bands in the secondary chamber, the use of a Lambda sensor on reduces emissions by approx. 400%.


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## hiker88 (Dec 7, 2012)

__dan said:


> Hot Water Supply - temp right out of the top of the boiler.


 
Thanks for that.  Although we have the same boiler it is hard for me and my limited experience to compare since our set up is pretty different.  I've only made changes two settings.  My slumber temp is 90c ( i think 85 or 87 was the default) and there was a timer setting that Tarm walked me though changing in the service menu.  I was getting some erroneous "boiler has air leak" message related to the residual oxygen  readings.  I was burning some real gnarly pieces of wood at the beginning of the season and as a safety, the boiler was interpreting the high residual oxygen content settings as a leak, or leaving a door open.  Once Tarm walked me through the change I never got the message again.

With 220 c flu gas temp I hit 64% on the secondary last night.  Our TV room is in the basement, and when I really hear it rumbling I go out for a look.  My wife thinks it's dorky as anything, but like I said, I'm a gadget guy and just generally curious about these kind of things.


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## maple1 (Dec 7, 2012)

Reduces emissions by 400% over what? Are you saying emissions are 400% lower with Lambda activated than with it deactivated - all else being equal?


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## EffectaBoilerUser (USA) (Dec 7, 2012)

Can you let me know what the slumber temp is? On my control panel I have the following:

Smoke Temperature
Boiler Temperature
Efficiency%
Primary opening and Secondary opening are in the form of a series of vertical bars that move as the dampers change position

What does your control panel display?

On your Froling do you have (1) fan, (1) Lambda sensor, (1) smoke temperature sensor and individual stepper/servo motors for both the primary and secondary drafts?

Thanks!


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## hiker88 (Dec 7, 2012)

EffectaBoilerUser (USA) said:


> Can you let me know what the slumber temp is? On my control panel I have the following:
> 
> Smoke Temperature
> Boiler Temperature
> ...


 
My main menu is configured to show flu gas temp and boiler temp (you can add things like temp of the boiler room etc, but this is what I go with). My settings sub menu shows boiler temp, flu gas temp, fan speed, primary air setting%, residual oxygen content %, secondary setting%, service hours, time in slumber, and then software version.

The boiler will slumber at 93c and ETL at 100c


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## hiker88 (Dec 7, 2012)

EffectaBoilerUser (USA) said:


> On your Froling do you have (1) fan, (1) Lambda sensor, (1) smoke temperature sensor and individual stepper/servo motors for both the primary and secondary drafts?
> 
> Thanks!


 
Yes, sorry missed this question.


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## __dan (Dec 7, 2012)

hiker88 said:


> Thanks for that. Although we have the same boiler it is hard for me and my limited experience to compare since our set up is pretty different. I've only made changes two settings. My slumber temp is 90c ( i think 85 or 87 was the default) and there was a timer setting that Tarm walked me though changing in the service menu. I was getting some erroneous "boiler has air leak" message related to the residual oxygen readings. I was burning some real gnarly pieces of wood at the beginning of the season and as a safety, the boiler was interpreting the high residual oxygen content settings as a leak, or leaving a door open. Once Tarm walked me through the change I never got the message again.
> 
> With 220 c flu gas temp I hit 64% on the secondary last night. Our TV room is in the basement, and when I really hear it rumbling I go out for a look. My wife thinks it's dorky as anything, but like I said, I'm a gadget guy and just generally curious about these kind of things.


 
Yep, I've been constantly going outside to look at the flue exhaust then downstairs to look at the boiler temps, like twice an hour. At 35% draft fan speed it's quieter than the circs. I have to look at the dial thermometers in the HW header then look at the LCD on the Froling to see if it is running. Standing right next to it, I cannot hear it over the circs at minimum burn. Cannot hear anything upstairs which is a big plus over the oil boiler.

Because of the low flue gas temp and sloppy wood from outside, I see the the H2O steam condensate in the flue gas. In the first hour from a cold start when it's dehydrating the wood I see ~ 10 ft streamer of H2O and ~ 2 ft streamer of H2O at minimum burn.

I've been looking for grey smoke and saw it for the first time today. I had brought in all wood pieces that had fallen off the pile and were close to the ground, outside of the tarp cover and loaded that, probably waterlogged, moldly, mushroomy. I am cleaning up and burning the junk. The first hour was slow to burn and in the flue gas I could see the steam going up and there was some unburned grey smoke that separated out of the steam and fell to the ground. I could smell it. First time in 7 weeks and due to low quality wood picked up from close to the ground. Pretty much what I expect to see from the neighbors burning.

All the other burns I've been watching the flue gas closely. It's water vapor and you can see it wisp and evaporate to the air in 2 to 10 ft with no residue. I'm sure you have the invisible flue gas because of the higher temp flue gas.

I'm waiting for January to see what it does with the red oak splits. I running well under what I had guessed I would burn. At this rate I will have a pile of junk wood left over for next year. Next improvement is wood storage.


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## EffectaBoilerUser (USA) (Dec 7, 2012)

What I am saying is:

The Co content over time averaged 490 PPM with the Lambda sensor activated
The Co2 content over time averaged 13.2% with the Lambda sensor activated
The boiler efficiency over time was 92% with the Lambda sensor activated


The cumulative Co content over time averaged 2,721 PPM with the Lambda sensor NOT activated
The Co2 content over time averaged 10.2% with the Lambda sensor NOT activated
The boiler efficiency over time was 87% with the Lambda sensor NOT activated
As can be see from the above test data, the Co PPM is drastically reduced when the Lambda sensor is activated.


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## EffectaBoilerUser (USA) (Dec 7, 2012)

Opps!

This is what I meant to post - don't want to confuse anyone!


The Co content over time averaged 490 PPM with the Lambda sensor activated
The Co2 content over time averaged 13.2% with the Lambda sensor activated
The boiler efficiency over time was 92% with the Lambda sensor activated


The Co content over time averaged 2,721 PPM with the Lambda sensor NOT activated
The Co2 content over time averaged 10.2% with the Lambda sensor NOT activated
The boiler efficiency over time was 87% with the Lambda sensor NOT activated


As can be seen from the above test data, the Co PPM is drastically reduced when the Lambda sensor is activated.


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## stee6043 (Dec 8, 2012)

Where do your boiler efficiency numbers come from?  How were the calculated?  Just curious.


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## BoilerBob (Dec 8, 2012)

Effecta used to be on my favs list. Now I am sick of hearing that name.

 Paul


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## Tennman (Dec 8, 2012)

Enjoying this thread.... A non-lambda guy learning a lot. Thx


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## EffectaBoilerUser (USA) (Dec 8, 2012)

The efficiency #'s are generated/calculated using the European Test Method EN303-5. I do not know the exact details of this efficiency test setup/method but do know that it looks at how much did the water temperature of a given volume increased when a specified amount of fuel was burned in the boiler. 

I will look into this efficiency test method further and get some additional details to share with everyone.

Regarding the other data figures I presented, they were gathered using calibrated/ISO certified instrumentation and I have attached the performance graph of this actual test.


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## JP11 (Dec 8, 2012)

Tennman said:


> Enjoying this thread.... A non-lambda guy learning a lot. Thx


 
I've got one.  I'm into a lot of this stuff.. in waves.

For now... I'm content with the oil boiler not coming on.   I need to keep cutting wood and getting ahead.  Drier wood is more important that about anything else.

Hit the button, load, hit the button.   Keep the storage temps up.. don't over feed the boiler so it doesn't idle.

JP


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## EffectaBoilerUser (USA) (Dec 8, 2012)

Not quite sure why the performance graph did not post, lets try this again!


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## EffectaBoilerUser (USA) (Dec 8, 2012)

Lets try this one more time!

I agree that the most important (and simplest to control) item with any wood gasifier is the moisture content of the wood being burned.


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## EffectaBoilerUser (USA) (Dec 8, 2012)

Now its really go me puzzled.

I am attaching the performance graph but it is not showing up on the posting.

Lets try it one more time.


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## EffectaBoilerUser (USA) (Dec 8, 2012)

Regarding the question about the efficiency test method, I have attached a sheet that shows all of the different test methods used to Test/Certify the effecta Lambda boilers.


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## mikefrommaine (Dec 8, 2012)

So you used those standards when you came up with your efficency numbers? 92% wouldnt the boiler be condensing at that point?


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## TCaldwell (Dec 8, 2012)

Hiker & Dan, I am curious, at startup what are the p/s damper positions and fan speed. What conditions or events cause the fan speed to modulate and did you say the normal operating residual o2 runs between 10 and 16%.
thanks
tom


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## __dan (Dec 8, 2012)

TCaldwell said:


> Hiker & Dan, I am curious, at startup what are the p/s damper positions and fan speed. What conditions or events cause the fan speed to modulate and did you say the normal operating residual o2 runs between 10 and 16%.
> thanks
> tom


 
Startup is max load for me since the boiler, DHW, and heat have been off for at least 12 hours. Boiler may be 36 C and the circs launch at 67 C (15 minutes after lighting).

At startup, I have the draft fan max speed set for 75%, down from the factory default at 80%, primary air is either 90 or 100%, and the secondary air seems to be set by the lamda sensor feedback. Secondary air usually runs at the minimum opening of 10%. The Froling excess O2 setpoint is 8% but it will not close the secondary air below the minimum opening of 10%, so for my typical burn when the boiler is turning down and restricting output, excess O2 is typically 12%. The Froling detects fuel load burnout at, I believe, 19% excess O2. and goes off.

So typically for me, I have max load for 1 hour, draft fan 75%, primary air 100%, secondary air 10%. After 1 hour the DHW load drops out and the boiler is at or above the HWS setpoint of 73 C and starts to turn down the output. With the loss of the DHW load and the slab returning 100 deg F, going from max to min operating condition is ~ 10 minutes. The Froling goes right from max to min parameters because HWS temp is above the setpoint of 73 C. 35% draft fan, 20% primary air, 10% secondary air. The boiler is at the minimum operating setpoints.

With moderately dry wood the basement slab is not enough load for the mimimum burn rate and the HWS temp continues up typically to the 80 to 90 C range and 12% excess O2 (above HWS and excess O2 setpoints). Flue gas runs 110 C at min burn rate. It burns out with no slumbering ~ 3 hours later because of the half load of fuel.

If I open the boiler later in the burn when it's charcoalized and poke it, it will go to 20% primary air and 50% secondary air, draft fan speed stays at 35% after I close the door. (HWS temp above setpoint)


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## EffectaBoilerUser (USA) (Dec 9, 2012)

I will investigate efficiency ratings in greater detail with Effecta. I am not sure exactly how the displayed efficiency is calculated.

On my Effecta at start up the primary defaults to 70% open and the secondary to 30% open. Once a fire is made and the smoke temp. reaches 100C the dampers then go to 100% primary and 0% secondary in an effort to get the combustion process going as quick as possible! At this temp the Lambda control system is also activated as the burn continues the Lambda system will automatically change the primary and secondary dampers to maintain the target CO2 setting.


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## stee6043 (Dec 9, 2012)

mikefrommaine said:


> So you used those standards when you came up with your efficency numbers? 92% wouldnt the boiler be condensing at that point?


 
That's exactly why I was asking the question.  Boiler efficiencies that exceed 90% are generally going to be condensing.  That being said, we could debate boiler efficiency, combustion efficiency, system efficiency, etc and so on.  They all have different meanings.  At the end of the day none of us could ever truly compare our boilers to any others in an installed configuration because of the variables.

My EKO advertises "91%-95% overall system efficiency when properly installed and operated".  I'd like to think I have a pretty good thing going with it but I can tell you that on average I'm not doing better than low 80%'s.  I also know that my brother-in-law is seeing high 20%'s, low 30%'s with his Central Boiler OWB.  Ultimately, based on what I know about my system I could say with high confidence that a lambda boiler (Froiling or otherwise) would not substantially improve my system efficiency.  I might not have to adjust my air settings two or three times each burn but I'm quite certain the efficiency numbers are going to be right in line with the EKO.


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## EffectaBoilerUser (USA) (Dec 9, 2012)

If you look at the performance graph I posted yesterday morning you will see that the efficiency % with and without the Lambda sensor was a difference of 6%. Thus, yes, the efficiency is not greatly increased with the use of a Lambda control system.

The biggest difference is that of the 4x reduction of CO PPM.

Having owned and operated an EKO40 for two years before I installed the Effecta Lambda 35, I do like the fit that there is no by-pass lever on the Effecta boiler to mess with. Once the fire is lit the primary door is closed and the Lambda system controls the damper opening automatically. It is also nice to be able to adjust my target CO2% (for different wood types and moisture content) with the touch of a button and know that the lambda system will automatically adjust the dampers for the most efficient burn.

Gotta go to Church!


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## skfire (Dec 9, 2012)

hiker88 said:


> Thanks for that. Although we have the same boiler it is hard for me and my limited experience to compare since our set up is pretty different. I've only made changes two settings. My slumber temp is 90c ( i think 85 or 87 was the default) and there was a timer setting that Tarm walked me though changing in the service menu. I was getting some erroneous "boiler has air leak" message related to the residual oxygen readings. I was burning some real gnarly pieces of wood at the beginning of the season and as a safety, the boiler was interpreting the high residual oxygen content settings as a leak, or leaving a door open. Once Tarm walked me through the change I never got the message again.
> 
> With 220 c flu gas temp I hit 64% on the secondary last night. Our TV room is in the basement, and when I really hear it rumbling I go out for a look. My wife thinks it's dorky as anything, but like I said, I'm a gadget guy and just generally curious about these kind of things.


 
I think the factory setpoints for FG is 160 and for boiler temp is 80(I have to chk). I have bumped mine to 87.

Have you tried brushing the HX? 220c maybe a bit high, if you a getting it a lot.

The wife has been running the boiler for the last month(had an accident) and she is loving it, but seeing FG over 205, I tend to get ready for a brushing. Last night mid burn(oak,ash and cherry. 65%full box) it reached FG 207c, Boiler 86c, primary closed to 75%, secondary at 39% and fan speed at 79%.

I try to clean the HX every 150 hrs or so and have only fine powder like fly ash.

Scott


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## skfire (Dec 9, 2012)

TCaldwell said:


> Hiker & Dan, I am curious, at startup what are the p/s damper positions and fan speed. What conditions or events cause the fan speed to modulate and did you say the normal operating residual o2 runs between 10 and 16%.
> thanks
> tom


 

At start up(first  10 minutes or so), primary runs at 99%, secondary at 10% and fan at 85%

As the setpoint of 8% O2 level is reached and past, around 6.5% the sec starts modulating up.

Scott


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## NP ALASKA (Dec 9, 2012)

Guys please let me know if the Lambda stuff starts somewhere else this is great info
What a hobby my wife says. I wish i liked going to work this much
Lol


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## hiker88 (Dec 10, 2012)

Well, it looks like my morning burn on 12/09 has answered my question. I don't think I'll be seeing secondary settings any higher than this.




























































I think this was about 45-60 mins into the burn. Previous fire was 24 hours before. Got up Sunday with the house at 66 and storage in the high 50s celsius. If I had had the system in "auto backup" the oil furnace would have come on. Goal was to get the house up to 70 and charge storage for the next 24 hour cycle.

With the temps lately, and two zones calling for heat, the Froling will run at it's highest setting with the safety door closed (85% fan speed) - and stay about 84-86c. My boiler setpoint is 90c. The first floor always comes up to temp first. Once the first floor zone stops calling for heat, the temp of the boiler will come up a few more degrees, but the boiler will still usually run at 85%.

With no zones calling for heat, storage starts coming up quickly, and the boiler will reach it's setpoint and maybe get as high as 92c. The fan is modulating down at this point. Boiler temps usually stay at 90c with fan speeds as low as 35%. As the wood starts to burn out, the fan will gradually increase as it tries to keep boiler temp up.

The holes you see to the right of the lighting door (on the black metal outside of the primary chamber) are the air inlets for the primary chamber. There is a tunnel in the insulation that leads along the side of the boiler. Air is pulled in through these holes and runs along the side of the boiler plating where it is preheated, it then gets pulled in through a butterfly vale and into the primary chamber. The air inlets for the secondary are similar except that that air is actually injected in the nozzle area, not the secondary chamber proper. To avoid confusion, the holes you see in the primary chamber are not air inlets - those holes are in the cladding plates that line the primary. The cladding plates come out for cleaning.


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## Chris Hoskin (Dec 10, 2012)

for anyone interested in the gory details of the difference between the European method of calculating efficiency and the North American, you may find our blog post from June 2009 interesting.  The difference has to do with how moisture is treated:  the Europeans use the Lower Heating Value of the fuel and we use the Higher Heating Value.  The result is that a European tested efficiency of, say, 92% translates to a North American efficiency of something like 86%.  That is how a boiler that touts an efficiency of 92% can still be non-condensing. Gory details: http://blog.woodboilers.com/2009/06/european-union-to-north-american-wood.html  This is just one of the places that there is confusion in the marketplace and why we tend to talk about our boilers as being "over 80% efficient" instead of citing specific numbers that are derived in a lab.  At the end of the day, all the bells and whistles make a boiler easier to use, more efficient and cleaner burning to be sure, but the most important accessory that people can add is a decent wood shed.


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