# I Used To Recommend Banking Coals. Now I Don't.



## BrotherBart (Jan 12, 2012)

I have long been a proponent of banking coals under ash when it is too warm to put on more wood but you know in the next few hours you are going to want to start a fire. And it also keeps a stove and flue warm for a long time. Well, not anymore. 

Today has been in the forties and raining all day and the house was at a comfortable temp so I banked the coals from the morning fire after noon for a late afternoon restart. Later I did a good bit of cooking in the microwave oven that is across the house in the kitchen which for all intents and purposes is one room with the family/stove room. A little before I was ready to uncover the coals and restart the fire I walked past the Kidde Nighthawk CO detector over the kitchen counter top and, as I do often, hit the button for the highest stored reading since the unit had been reset. I have never seen anything other than "0" displayed. This time it showed a reading of 20 parts per million. Not a dangerous level or one that would set off the alarm but I wasn't happy to see anything but zero. I went over to the stove and uncovered the coals and put some small pieces on to get the fire going in the warm stove. And had a heck of a time getting a draft going. 

I am convinced that I know what happened. The coals were sitting there under the ashes giving off CO which was supposed to be going up the chimney. But between the high pressure right over us with the rain and that microwave oven, which happens also to be the range hood, running there was a flue reversal and the hood was sucking CO out of the stove inlets.

The draft is back up to speed and no new CO has been detected but I just wanted to tell you folks that I no longer recommend something I have done for years. Banking coals in a wood stove. 

And shiver a little when I think about how many times I have done it and then gone to bed for the night.


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## fossil (Jan 12, 2012)

Interesting, and makes sense (your analysis/conclusion).  Glad you've never suffered any ill effects.  Rick


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## pen (Jan 12, 2012)

Makes a lot of sense, even though there are folks on here who will try and argue that there is no CO w/ those coals  :-S 

I'd say this may be another reason to consider an oak.  Same thing could happen w/out specifically banking the coals if someone has the air set too low.

Thanks for sharing.

pen


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## begreen (Jan 12, 2012)

Sheesh. It's getting so that you can't trust any banking system these days.

PS: looks like you meant to say low pressure. There's two sitting over VA right now.


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## SlyFerret (Jan 12, 2012)

See!  This weird weather this season will kill you if you aren't careful!!

-SF


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## Fake coal burner (Jan 12, 2012)

Mine reads 15 ppm when the inversion sets in bad. It even sticks to your nose.


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## BrotherBart (Jan 12, 2012)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> PS: looks like you meant to say low pressure. There's two sitting over VA right now.



I never could keep up with which was which. Must be how I failed the TV weather interview.


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## corey21 (Jan 12, 2012)

Glad every thing is OK now. This winter has been very odd


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## jatoxico (Jan 12, 2012)

Interesting. Wonder if a potentially more serious situation could be created with a with a smoldering load that loses draft.

I had another short period of a reverse draft today. Paper smoke coming through around the door gasket and air control lever. Second time thats happened. Usually I can just throw in 2-3 crumpled pcs of paper. Now I know when I feel the air coming down into the room when I open the door I have to be careful when establishing draft.


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## begreen (Jan 12, 2012)

Yes, we just started stage 1 burn ban with cold temps and a 15-20mph wind. WTH?


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## BrotherBart (Jan 12, 2012)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Yes, we just started stage 1 burn ban with cold temps and a 15-20mph wind. WTH?



So THATS where the high pressure is!


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## Stump_Branch (Jan 12, 2012)

fossil said:
			
		

> Interesting, and makes sense (your analysis/conclusion).  Glad you've never suffered any ill effects.  Rick




No ill effects? Have you never read his profile?

In all seriousness its good to see you have a monitor. I hope woodburners consider having one. Just the same with functioning smoke detectors.


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## maxed_out (Jan 12, 2012)

hey BB glad you are ok.  in addition to the pressure, got me thinking about how fast a metal liner can heat up and how fast it can cool down.


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## BrotherBart (Jan 12, 2012)

maxed_out said:
			
		

> hey BB glad you are ok.  in addition to the pressure, got me thinking about how fast a metal liner can heat up and how fast it can cool down.



It has probably happened before, which as Stump_Branch pointed out would explain a lot of things  :lol: , but I just added the detector with the read-out this season. All bedrooms have one but they are just alarms. Same as used to be downstairs.


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## precaud (Jan 12, 2012)

Add a secondary air intake control so you can shut it down more. Then you won't have to bother banking the coals, and the CO won't leak out.


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## Geoff John-West (Jan 12, 2012)

You got me thinking.  Does CO emit from a closed ash pail that I let cool beside the stove?   I can't smell anything.
Geoff


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## HotCoals (Jan 12, 2012)

Geoff John-West said:
			
		

> You got me thinking.  Does CO emit from a closed ash pail that I let cool beside the stove?   I can't smell anything.
> Geoff


Probably not if it's sealed good.
Try putting your CO detector near it and see.
When I clean my ash out it goes into a metal bucket and into the basement with a cover with heavy weights on it. ..for at least a week and then dumped in the garden area.


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## spirilis (Jan 12, 2012)

Yeah this kind of weather makes me forget the stove and let the heat pump take over... Doesn't help that I have an exterior masonry oversized terracotta clay chimney either...


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## JonP (Jan 12, 2012)

Geoff John-West said:
			
		

> You got me thinking.  Does CO emit from a closed ash pail that I let cool beside the stove?   I can't smell anything.
> Geoff



CO is odorless.  I put my ashes in a covered pail and put it outside with some bricks on the lid so the wind can't blow it off.  I don't want to risk anything, indoors or out.


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## Stump_Branch (Jan 12, 2012)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> maxed_out said:
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All that CO intake did was make you addicted to this thing of burning stuff. For most of use its a very good thing.

I must have misread, you have a detector with a read out? I have just pure alarms. Can you post a pic of the gadgit? How many ppm does it take to set off an alarm?


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## semipro (Jan 12, 2012)

Unless you keep your stove going strong 24/7 at some point your going to run into a low draft situation like BrotherBart described whether you're banking coals or not.  
If this just happens to coincide with the right weather conditions and the use of indoor ventilation (range hood, dryer, bath fans, etc.), Carbon Monoxide could be a real problem.
Like many, we let our fire go out at night and build another one when we get home from work. 
Unfortunately, the way many stoves are built with leaks and multiple air inlet ports, an OAK would not prevent the problem and could even make it worse (and I'm a big proponent of OAKs).

I urge everyone who uses combustion heating to install, maintain, and monitor at least one CO detector during the burning season.


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## hardwood715 (Jan 12, 2012)

Wow, wonder what explanation or scolding old Elk would have given you BB, But old Brownie would cook that CO into the biosphere, Glad your still alive and kicking my friend!!


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## stoveguy2esw (Jan 12, 2012)

i think the biggest "teaching moment" from this thread is that "CO DETECTORS ARE A MUST HAVE"  even with a great installation a great stove and all the experience in the world one cannot plan for all contingencies, especially the fickle nature of draft when affected by weather conditions. CO detectors are insurance to help protect us from these unusual happenstances, in my humble opinion no house should ever be without smoke and CO detectors if ANY combustion device is used. and probably would be worthwhile even in cases where these devices are not used. 

noting also the practice of keeping an ash bucket inside the dwelling is a bad idea as well due to the fact that CO can be emmitted by coals slowly being consumed as they rest in the ash, ideally the coals and ash should be contained in a metal container WITH a lid and should be stored outdoors on a non combustible surface where they can be extinguished safely.bear in mind folks i do not point this out as a "scolding" but as a plea for safety over convenience. note my tagline "inviting fire into your home should be done with the utmost care".


 great thread BB, glad that everything turned out ok my friend.


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## Jags (Jan 12, 2012)

stoveguy2esw said:
			
		

> i think the biggest "teaching moment" from this thread is that "CO DETECTORS ARE A MUST HAVE"



AND - all burning fossil fuels emit CO even at the coaling stages.  Its a fact.  Ash buckets should be stored outside of the house envelope.

I'm with ya Bro.  If my alarm reads anything other than zero, I _pause and reflect_.


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## woodgeek (Jan 12, 2012)

I think anyone with a natural-draft combustion system, stove, boiler or furnace, needs to have robust CO alarms.  We had a cheapie CO alarm that didn't go off despite our getting low-grade CO poisoned for a couple months when our boiler flue got plugged.  Only after it let out a single 'peep' one night did we figure out why we felt so lousy for the previous couple months.  They are designed to alarm only in immediately life-threatening conditions--they will ignore a low level of CO that can really slow you down....

Now I have a real-time display where I can see it, as well as others for backup.

And yes, virginia, coals in a bucket on your hearth will emit CO--I find it hard to believe that a lid will keep it in.


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## Jags (Jan 12, 2012)

woodgeek said:
			
		

> Now I have a real-time display where I can see it, as well as others for backup.



I will probably wear the display button out before the "end of Life" comes for my detector. :lol:


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## DanCorcoran (Jan 12, 2012)

My CO detector would routinely give spurious readings in the 15-30 PPM range, even with the pellet stove off and no other sources of CO.  It wouldn't alarm at those readings, of course, it would just show them if you pressed the display button.  I'm not sure that there's a great deal of accuracy in readings that far down on the scale.


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## stoveguy2esw (Jan 12, 2012)

woodgeek said:
			
		

> I think anyone with a natural-draft combustion system, stove, boiler or furnace, needs to have robust CO alarms.  We had a cheapie CO alarm that didn't go off despite our getting low-grade CO poisoned for a couple months when our boiler flue got plugged.  Only after it let out a single 'peep' one night did we figure out why we felt so lousy for the previous couple months.  They are designed to alarm only in immediately life-threatening conditions--they will ignore a low level of CO that can really slow you down....
> 
> Now I have a real-time display where I can see it, as well as others for backup.
> 
> *And yes, virginia, coals in a bucket on your hearth will emit CO--I find it hard to believe that a lid will keep it in*.




the question is , can you REALLY trust that lid when it comes to this kind of issue?


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## tfdchief (Jan 12, 2012)

Agree with all here.  Fossil fuel burning appliances require CO detectors.  I would add that ALL residences should have them, even with non-fossil fuel burning appliances.  CO can be found in enclosed spaces due to other causes.  It is cheap insurance.


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## firefighterjake (Jan 14, 2012)

Jags said:
			
		

> woodgeek said:
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Which will probably be between 3 and 7 years depending on the manufacturer.

And yeah . . . big proponent of CO detectors . . . and not keeping my ashes inside the house.


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## tfdchief (Jan 14, 2012)

firefighterjake said:
			
		

> Jags said:
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That caught my eye Jake.  I was looking at First Alert Combo Smoke/CO detectors today and noticed there were 2 that seemed identical.....One priced $10 more than the other.  The lower priced one was warrantied for 7 years, and sounds an alarm warning you that the 7 years is up.  The other one, higher priced was warrantied for 5 years.....strange.  I got a call and had to go before I could figure out what the deal was.


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## karl (Jan 14, 2012)

It makes a good argument for an OAK


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## Woodrow (Jan 14, 2012)

The lead singer for the 70's rock group "Boston" (Brad Delp) committed suicide by CO using charcoal grills in his bathroom. 

http://www.guitarworld.com/brad-delp-details-emerge-about-his-tragic-suicide


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## danham (Jan 14, 2012)

x2 on the need for a good CO detector in all dwellings. The kind that allows you to read the most recent high concentration is a huge plus for diagnosing problems. They go off and make noise at 29-30 ppm, but experts say long exposure to levels below that is also not good for you.

I found the biggest culprit by far in our house to be the gas cooking stove. It blows my mind that code in this day and age still allows gas ovens to vent 100% of their combustion gases into your kitchen. One Thanksgiving, when the oven was running for many hours and our windows were closed, the detector hit 23 ppm. I checked the air shutter on the oven burner and it was very badly out of adjustment, even using the eyeball/flame method. I opened it way up and the detector has never shown more than about 13 ppm since, but we still open a  window when using the oven now that we know what a gross polluter it is.

Interestingly --and finally back on topic [grin] -- since getting our Regency insert, with it running and the oven on, we get almost no ambient CO pollution, suggesting to me that air exchange increases enough with the insert fired up to help keep things "cleaner" in the house.

-dan


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## neumsky (Jan 15, 2012)

This is good stuff gang Appreciate honesty!   On another note...I was gassed when I was a little guy... at about 7 years of age(50 years ago) we used to take runs up to my grandmothers place from Minneapolis to Northwestern Minnesota...had holes in the running boards of our car during the winter. Windows closed...heater running full blast I fell asleep in the back when my father & mother tried to wake me up and could'nt...Dad stopped the car and walked me up & down the higway when he let me go I fell to the ground like a bowl of spaghetti. I finally revived.  Another case... Had our 35 year old & his wife & son visiting us here in Oklahoma and as we have as usual ice storms. Power out on our house started the generator up in the garage with the big garage door open about 1 foot. Mistake was we had the ladder down to get into the attic. Fumes went up into the attic and circulated into the house thru the furnace. Did'nt notice it until we started having headaches... Stupid is is Stupid does!  Just a warning!   Be safe    Jeff


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## stoveguy2esw (Jan 15, 2012)

education is the key, the old "saw" in my business is that folks tend to start their first break in fire using the manual for kindling. bottom line , the instructions provided for stoves (and many other items) which folks take for granted in their day to day lives are provided in the hopes that they will be read and adhered to. code inspectors (at least the good ones) arent "out to bust your Blls for jollies, their job is to ensure that folks do things is a safe manner. when its all said and done though, consumers who use hearth products (as well as those who have other items which use combustion in their homes) PLEASE take the time to educate yourselves on the ramifications of inviting fire into your homes.


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## neumsky (Jan 15, 2012)

That is funny Stoveguy...but probably very true!


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## tfdchief (Jan 15, 2012)

stoveguy2esw said:
			
		

> education is the key, the old "saw" in my business is that folks tend to start their first break in fire using the manual for kindling. bottom line , the instructions provided for stoves (and many other items) which folks take for granted in their day to day lives are provided in the hopes that they will be read and adhered to. code inspectors (at least the good ones) arent "out to bust your Blls for jollies, their job is to ensure that folks do things is a safe manner. when its all said and done though, consumers who use hearth products (as well as those who have other items which use combustion in their homes) PLEASE take the time to educate yourselves on the ramifications of inviting fire into your homes.


Being an inspector, I will note that the unfortunate ones that have a fire, are far more interested in what the inspector has to say when the rebuild.  Of course that's obvious, but it is to bad that everyone can't understand the importance of safe building and installs.....which is our only goal.....or at least it is mine.   :smirk:


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## semipro (Jan 16, 2012)

I checked our CO detector today and it was well over 7 years old (2001).  I went out and bought a replacement this evening. 

Thanks for the reminder Brother Bart.


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