# 867-5309 . . . Talking about (G)Jenny



## firefighterjake (Nov 2, 2017)

So it's Day 4 of using a generator and I'm optimistic that we'll have power sometime tonight . . . I hope.

I count myself as fortunate since we have our woodstove and a small 3,000 watt Coleman Powermate generator bought back in the Ice Storm of 1998 which we've been using to keep the freezer and refrigerator going . . . and my wife has got a spare extension cord running to the TV.

The other day she said something along the lines of "You know if you're going to insist that we live in the sticks, which I figure is the case since you have shown no interest in going anywhere else for the past 21 years, I think maybe we should look at getting a generator that will run most of the house and be easier for me to set up."

Now I should mention she actually lugged the Powermate generator off the back porch, down the small flight of stairs, gassed it up and had it running with extension cords powering the various appliances by the time I got home . . . although she did confess that it was quite heavy and she dropped it on her foot.

Me, being me . . . and like most guys . . . I immediately was drawn to the Honda EU7000Is which offers the more stable power, is quieter and sips the fuel as it is an inverter. I figure I don't necessarily need a whole house generator like the large ones fixed and in place, but I plan to get something that we can easily roll out, hook up a cord, flip a switch and start the generator (bearing in mind that in 1998 my poor wife ended up breaking her arm and I left for a class down in Emmitsburgh, Maryland at the Firefighter Academy so she had to fuel, start and man-handle this all by herself . . . and sadly we're both not getting any younger.

I'm thinking gasoline . . . mainly because of the cost in my neck of the woods.

I'm also thinking something 6,000 watts or more should suffice for what we want -- keeping the freezer and refrigerator going, powering the well pump, TV, internet/wifi and a couple of lights.

As mentioned I was drawn to either the Honda EU7000IS or Yamaha EF6300ISDE . . . the specs look good for both (although I would love to hear pros and cons of these two units) . . . but then I started to wonder . . .

Do I really need an inverter? I mean if this Powermate Big Box store generator has been running well enough and powering my TV and appliances for all of these years (we end up using it maybe once a year or once every other year for a few hours to a day or two) do I really need the more expensive inverter?\\

I mean sure the reduced noise would be nice, but I live in the country so it's not a necessity.

The improved fuel economy is also nice . . . but a conventional generator just a bit smaller (Honda EM6500S) offers a similar run time albeit with a slightly larger tank. I can live with this since right now I am fueling up the Powermate every 1 1/2-2 hours.

My real question is on the quality of the power . . . is the more stable power for electronics all that necessary? I mean to say, I've been using the Powermate now for nearly two decades without any problems with appliances/electronics so I was wondering if an inverter is totally necessary or if a plain Jane generator such as the Honda EM6500S or Yamaha EM7200DE would meet my wants/needs?


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## Montanalocal (Nov 2, 2017)

I have had a generator most all of my life (I am in my 70's and have always lived in the country).  When I have taught some of my classes on being self-sufficient, I emphasize the big 3 as far as electrical self sufficiency.  1.  Food preservation, refrigerators and freezers.  2.  Heat.  Wood burning for us usually covers this, but if you have propane or gas, you need to factor in fans and thermostats.  3.  Water.  You mentioned your well pump.  

Once you add up all the wattage of everything you want to run, there are two things I would not be without.

1.  Battery starting.  When you need it, it will be very cold and have not been running for some time.  Spend a little money and get a battery start model.  None of us are getting any younger.  Get a battery tender and leave it hooked up.

2.  Whole house hookup.  It does cost money.  If you plan on living in your house for a long time going forward, it will be a very good investment.  You can run anything in your house if you get a good quality double-pole double-throw  switch and run your generator through your main electric panel.

As far as quality of electricity, I have had a 9000 watt old regular generator for may years, and have had no problems with computers and such.


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## vinny11950 (Nov 2, 2017)

Not sure on the answer, Jake, but I am curious what the more knowledgeable members will say.  So sign me up to this thread.


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## fbelec (Nov 3, 2017)

touching the subject of lighting the whole panel up it is inexpensive to do so. at worst if your panel is not to old all you are going to need is a generator interlock. if the company that makes your panel doesn't make a interlock kit for it go for a company called generator interlock. they are the most expensive kit out and they take the responsibility if something happens. these kits are ok to satisfy electric code. if you can use a drill with a 1/8 inch bit which the kit comes with then you can install one of these. they are 2 to 3 times the cost of the company that makes your panel. and in mass the generator interlock brand sells for $150.00 murray siemans about $65.00 then you'll need a 2 pole 30 breaker for your panel and a piece of 10/3 romex that goes between the breaker and the generator power inlet mounted to the outside of your house. and i recommend paying the extra $10.00 for the ge power inlet box. way better design to keep everything dry while in use. you can get them anywhere you can buy ge products or the home depot. 

the generator interlock make it so that you can have the main utility breaker on and generator breaker off or the generator breaker on and the utility main off. the can't be on at the same time. that's what makes it safe for the lineman and code compliant.

frank


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## peakbagger (Nov 7, 2017)

The inverter generators do really sip fuel and they also tend to be quieter. The government quietly put in power quality standards over th last 20 years that force legit manufacturers to accepts much wider swings in power quality. Switching power supplies like those used in computers can take real crappy power. 

The biggest thing with a generator is how easy it is to drain the fuel entirely out of the unit. If the unit sits for years between uses if you leave gas in it, its probably going to deteriorate and cause issues at some point.


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## moey (Nov 7, 2017)

*Let it warm up and dont let it run out of gas.* Those are the two keys in my opinion to not causing any damage to appliances. Those problems exist for any generator you buy. I have a inverter and a large cheap champion noisy generator to run my well pump. Ive never had an appliance with a motor sound different on either generator. In my opinion people make way to big of deal on power quality. But you do want something that is reliable.


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## Ashful (Nov 7, 2017)

On the power quality, with respect to modern electronics, it’s not much of an issue.  Most modern electronics use power supplies with wide-ranging inputs, most typically 90 - 265 VAC, 50 - 60 Hz.  It’s more things like refrigerator compressors and well pumps, which may respond unfavorably to poorly-regulated voltage.


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## Highbeam (Nov 7, 2017)

There are inverter gensets and then there are non-inverter gensets. The non-inverter gensets are available in a wide range of quality. Really, your utility power is not generated with an inverter but a high quality generator. My champion brand inverter genset makes better quality power than the utility does. All to say, don't be afraid of a well made non-inverter genset. Well made means it will be expensive.

Here's a problem that hasn't been mentioned yet. When you backfeed your panel through an interlock you are required to use a 240 volt genset. Okay fine, that knocks out lots of inverter gensets. By design, the breakers in your panel will unevenly load the two legs of the incoming 240 volt power BUT the standard 240 volt genset only regulates the sum of the two sides to be 240 volts. Meaning one side can be at 90 while the other leg is at 150! Not cool! Other 240 gensets only regulate one leg to 120 and assume that you are evenly loading each leg. Also not cool and can result in 90 volts to the refrigerator which is no good.

When looking at 240 volt gensets to be used to backfeed your entire panel be sure to ask how the voltage is regulated. The fancy Hondas might just be smart enough to regulate two independent 120 volt legs. That would be awesome. I think they're fuel injected too! Note also that a 6000 watt 240 volt genset can only provide 3000 watts to all of the 120 volt breakers on each leg. The only way to power a single load above 3000 would be if it was a 240 volt breaker. You start looking at your breaker locations a little differently when you are thinking about spreading the load evenly across both legs.

I have an interlocked siemens panel and I love it but I decided to not use any 240 volt circuits and instead wire an adapter to feed my whole panel with 120 volt power from the inverter. It works great but it only works because of my 10 gauge generator ciruit and 3000 watt genset. See, the neutral takes double the anticipated current in this setup.

Lots to think about.

Oh, with an interlock you need to flip off breakers for automatic huge loads like electric water heaters, water heaters, hot tubs, or anything else that you don't want coming on and knocking out the genset. It's not quite as simple as flipping a switch.


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## Ashful (Nov 7, 2017)

Interesting hypotheses, Highbeam.  My genny has a four-wire hook up, with neutral and ground, and is voltage regulated.  I’ll have to see how uneven loading affects the individual leg to neutral voltages, next time I have to backfeed.


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## firefighterjake (Nov 8, 2017)

Thanks folks ... as always the depth of knowledge here is fantastic. Based on the comments here I suspect I'll go with a generator ... now I need to find a good make and model.

While overall wattage will be important, reliability and "cleaner/more equal" power are also high on my want lists. The noise isn't as important since I am in the country and in a power outage I suspect a fair number of my neighbors will also be using a generator. I like the idea of having electric start with pull start as a back up. Being portable with wheels will be a must, but I suspect the larger generators will come with this feature.

Any thing else I should be considering?

Any personal recommendations?


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## velvetfoot (Nov 8, 2017)

This thing  is handy to let you know when utility power is back:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Reliance-Controls-PowerBack-Utility-Power-Return-Alert-THP108/202216506


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## Highbeam (Nov 8, 2017)

Ashful said:


> Interesting hypotheses, Highbeam.  My genny has a four-wire hook up, with neutral and ground, and is voltage regulated.  I’ll have to see how uneven loading affects the individual leg to neutral voltages, next time I have to backfeed.



I'm sure all generators are "voltage regulated" and we don't really want to talk about the ground and neutral and what a floating neutral means! The first time I noticed the lame voltage regulation methods of 240 volt gensets is when I was backfeeding my house and the refrigerator was just barely turning on and made very little noise. I stuck my kill-a-watt meter in a plug on the same circuit and found less than 100 volts but the genset was purring along just fine. I then found another outlet on a different circuit at 140. Light bulb moment. Just to be sure, I replaced the AVR in the generator head and adjusted the pot to provide 120 volts and it worked great until I unevenly loaded the legs again.

Inverter gensets are awesomely boring at making perfect power but you don't see many running 240 volts.

To the OP. My non-inverter genset ran everything just fine when not in the unevenly loaded situation. Big screen TVs, computers, lights, all without flicker or humming. My ceiling fan runs on low all winter and that bugger hummed more than ever when on genset power. With the inverter genset, no hum at all.


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## mustash29 (Nov 8, 2017)

I had this place built in '96 when I was 26 but only ever dealt with short term outages due to drunks taking out a pole, etc.

Bought a Briggs "Storm Responder" 5500 / 8250 surge when a storm was approaching in '11 but we never needed to use it.

It was still in the unopened box a year later in '12 when Irene hit.  We were out for 5 days.  I back fed the whole house with 240 V via the dryer outlet + had 250' of romex running over to the neighbors.  We had all essentials - oil furnace (internal hot water coil), well pump, fridge, waterbed heater, lights, hair dryer, leaf blower, etc + the neighbors fridge & freezer.  We blew through 17 gal in 5 days.  We cooked on the grill & Coleman propane camp stove.

After Irene, I drained the fuel, ran her dry, changed the oil, put a few drops of oil in the plug hole, covered it with the box it came in as a dust cover and parked it in the rec room / mud room where the wood stove lives.

I eventually picked up a slightly used Coleman 1500 / 1800 portable tailgate model.   

5 years later we get this nasty quick wind & rain storm. We had 3.5" of rain last week and got 4.5" of rain overnight with peak wind gusts of about 67 mph at the coast.  I'm about 15 miles inland.  Lost power about 10 pm Sunday evening.  Came home from work Mon AM after 13 hr nightshifts due to fall outages on the boilers at work for the last 3 weeks.  Grumpy & tired, I fired up the little Coleman to run the fridge & freezer.

Just before dark the little guy was retired and I woke the big guy from his long nap.  Filled the fuel tank, opened the main breaker, plugged in my back-feed cord and was ready to rock.  Just for sh!ts & giggles I wanted to see if the lady of the house could get it running.  Engine switch on, full choke and it coughed and started 1/2 way through the first pull.

We got the grid back Wed evening.

I never worry about the PC or fancy TV because anytime we lose power the cable & internet are down anyway so all we need is the essentials - cold drinks, hot food, showers & lights.

Time for another fuel drain, run dry, oil change and put back to bed until needed again.


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## peakbagger (Nov 8, 2017)

I bought a generator a couple of months after the year 2000. I live in a rural area but its a newer neighborhood that was logged before the development went in thus the trees mostly are at or below the powerlines. Almost all the houses in the development voluntarily put in underground feeds to their homes, this cuts way down on issues as frequently trees on house services can damage the main line.  I have never needed the generator for a power outage. I have run it twice since I bought it. I just make sure its drained, run it out of gas and put it away. I do have cheater cord that plugs into the 220 VAC twist lock outlet which I would use to tie into a sub panel in my detached garage. It will start my well pump. Its 6000 Watt Generac.  

A few days prior to the most recent storm the utility started aggressively cleaning the right of way in my development (it was planned), 8 feet from the centerline of the wire. They just started the project back again on Monday. Where we have the problems in the area are summer folks who dont want the woods around their lines cleared. They arent around typically when the bad weather comes in but raise heck when the clearing contractor comes by. I wish the utility would just put break away connections on their service leads so their decisions would not impact the locals who live year round.


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## maple1 (Nov 8, 2017)

My first preference would be easy on fuel. Keeping a gennie in fuel during an extended outage is something that a lot of people don't think all the way through - they don't look past big wattage. The easier the better. That = inverter for me.

The whole hog approach would be a big whole house self starter and self switcher, tied to an LP tank or NG source. But if you don't already have LP or NG that kind of puts the jimmies to that approach. Second to that would be similar, but the gennie would be a diesel, hooked to a fuel oil tank, if there is already fuel oil on site.

I don't have LP, NG, or fuel oil - so that leaves me with a sensibly sized inverter and a couple jugs of gas.

I guess the moral of all that is -  that I would start deciding based on an assessment of currently on-site fuel sources. Then the next most easiest to keep supplied in an extended outage, if what is on-site is lacking. Big wattage is down the list for me - I don't need to use the electric dryer or range or electric water heater or electric boiler in an outage.


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## peakbagger (Nov 8, 2017)

For most folks its the well pump that sets the size of the generator. There is the option with many deep wells with external capacitor boxes to convert them to variable speed constant pressure which eliminates the startup current surge. With that out of the way the generator can be much smaller but realistically the price of the pump conversion will handily pay for the bigger inverter generator. The variable speed pump option does make sense for off grid folks who somehow live perpetually without the grid (but usually have a generator or two anyhow to equalize the batteries and cover extended periods of no sun or wind). They normally use a different type of pump called a positive displacement pump and and a storage tank. Its far more efficient but the up front cost is steep. Of course the pump with no electrical requirements is one of these https://www.bisonpumps.com/ which can usually be fit in the same casing as the electric pump. 

The trade off with a variable speed conversion is when the drive fails is not cheap to fix compared to a $25 pressure switch. 

The bummer is that in Northern New England where the OP lives, oil heat is quite popular and most folks have at least a 275 gallon tank partially full of oil. It burns quite well in a diesel generator. Unfortunately small diesel generators are not user friendly and quite loud. Definitely not an option in a neighborhood unless you really dont like the neighbors and dont need to sleep.


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## Highbeam (Nov 8, 2017)

Even with a gas sipping inverter genny, I shut down overnight. The cooled refrigeration can easily cruise until morning without harming food and a running genset ticks off the neighbors while attracting the attention of thieves overnight.

If you have a wellpump that demands double or more of your regular needs then consider the two generator approach. One big, cheap, gas hog, hoss of a generator for occasional high demands and a smaller, quieter, more efficient genset for long runs.

The big hoss can cover if the little one fails.

Nothing wrong with gasoline. Preserve it and use it in the lawnmower over the summer. It won't go bad in a year. People really get hung up on this whole fresh gas thing. It burns just fine if you keep the stabil in it and use within a year.


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## firefighterjake (Nov 8, 2017)

Sticking with gas for ease of use . . . so far every time I've needed to fire up the old, small generator it's started up fine with at most a short spray of starter fluid.

Gas supply has never been an issue either as every time the nearby gas station (located very close to a sub station) has had power . . . and if push came to shove I suspect I could find a gas station in the city where I work.

To be honest I'm heavily leaning towards the Honda line of generators . . . although I've also been looking at generators like Rigid which are powered by Honda engines.


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## Dix (Nov 8, 2017)

Following thread, also.

Hang on to her Jake, she sounds like a keeper. The wife, not the generator. But keep that, too The generator


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## greg13 (Nov 8, 2017)

Multi Quip is a great generator. Don't be afraid to check into buying a good used over sized unit (8-25kw). Many rental houses sell off their units after x# of years regardless of the use they have had and often can be had fairly cheap. Remember that you most likely will not be putting a ton of hours on it, We have a few big units 25 - 70kw with 4-10000 hrs on them that still run like new so the few hundred hours you may put on will be nothing. Also you could look at welder/generator combo units, you never know what you may find cheap.

Greg


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## Sodbuster (Nov 9, 2017)

My buddy just installed a 12K Generac generator powered by NG. It senses when there is a power interruption and fires up 30-45 seconds later. All automatic. He has a little different situation however. They are gone for 3 months of the year (winter) and if the power goes out and we get a lot of rain, his basement will flood without a sump pump running. He also has 4 deep freezes loaded with meat and food, so the loss would be substantial, if he were to lose power. I think his system was around $2500 installed.


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## fbelec (Nov 9, 2017)

2500 wouldn't even buy the gen
installed that would run about 8 to 10 thousand


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## Sodbuster (Nov 9, 2017)

fbelec said:


> 2500 wouldn't even buy the gen
> installed that would run about 8 to 10 thousand



LOL, should of explained, buddy's friend, who sells them is a Master Electrician, so he got it at cost.  Buddy is and Unlimited Tonnage Journeyman pipe fitter, so no skilled labor was hired, just a few brews afterwards.


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## Highbeam (Nov 9, 2017)

firefighterjake said:


> To be honest I'm heavily leaning towards the Honda line of generators . . . although I've also been looking at generators like Rigid which are powered by Honda engines.



There are Honda portable generators and then there are the much cheaper "other brand" portable generators that have engines with a Honda sticker. I would put these two things at opposite ends of the quality spectrum. On the off brand genset the Honda engine you get will be a low end or commercial level off-the-shelf engine that is used for everything from trash pumps to hay elevators. Little or no better than a regular briggs engine. The generator head will be low budget too. Noisy power.

If you would rather not pay for a Honda or yamaha then I believe you would be better off with a Honda/Yamaha clone from champion.


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## Sodbuster (Nov 9, 2017)

I have a Chonda generator marketed under the Champion brand from Costco. Runs my whole house, I just have to cycle larger loads to compensate for when the well motor kicks on.


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## jebatty (Nov 10, 2017)

Montanalocal said:


> I emphasize the big 3 as far as electrical self sufficiency. 1. Food preservation, refrigerators and freezers. 2. Heat. Wood burning for us usually covers this, but if you have propane or gas, you need to factor in fans and thermostats. 3. Water.



This advice is exactly what I did in getting a generator 12 years ago -- a 5500W, 240V Craftsman. I did install a 10 circuit transfer switch so that I could have various circuits to energize as needed. 1) Primary consideration was refrigerator and freezer, 2) next the 240V well pump, 3) then key lighting circuits, 4) then the microwave circuit to enable a little cooking, and last the circuit that powers the TV, internet router, computer, and sound system. Long after we got the generator we switched nearly all lighting to LED, so current draw of lighting is barely a consideration, other than convenience. We also heat with a wood stove, so heat is not an issue. In a pinch the well pump also is not an issue, we live on a lake and can use our camping water purifier to get drinking water, if needed, cooking, washing and non-drinking water can come right from the lake. The septic system is gravity, so no pump issue here. A gallon or two of lake water in the toilet bowl does the flushing. And even for cooking, we can easily use our camping rocket stove and skip the microwave. 

I would think that with your long experience with a generator, you know well what is critical, what also would be very helpful, and lastly what really is just a convenience. With all the electricity we use from the grid, it is eye-opening to see how little electricity is actually needed to cover power outages, even those that may extend over many days, which are rare in our area of rural northern MN.


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## jebatty (Nov 10, 2017)

Need to add that the well pump only needs to be operated very minimally. One or two 5 gallon water jugs filled from the well easily would cover several days of need for drinking water. In the end, other than convenience, there is little need to oversize a generator.


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## peakbagger (Nov 10, 2017)

I have a shallow well on my lot that I havent used for years, if I lose power a bucket and a rope will cover me. I hike and camp so I have various water treatment systems to treat the water just in case. One of these years I will hook up the shallow well and run the outdoor hoses and toilet off it it instead of using my deep well pump.


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## maple1 (Nov 10, 2017)

Our house draws from a generations old dug well for all its water. About 25' deep. We use a 120v shallow well pump. It does good even though it's at the outer range of its specs. I can run it off our 3kw inverter if I have to but rarely do - we have 3 toilets, the water in the tanks can get us a couple of days. I have a 25 gallon plastic drum under the condensate drain on our HRV that usually has some water in it, I can flush with that if I have to. If there is severe bad weather coming we fill a couple extra buckets, couple of gallons for drinking in the fridge. Worse comes to worse I can drop a bucket down the well on a rope. Worse comes to worser I can take a 5 minute walk to a brook.

Our power bills show average 20kwh/day of use, +/-.  Closer to 16 in the winter when heating DHW with wood. If you take out say 10 hours for overnight when hardly using any, that works out to around 1.4KW per hour. A 1400 kw generator is pretty small - having one twice that more than covers our bases. Not sure many factor in their daily normal consumption when sizing a gennie - they are more apt to add up all their appliance draws & use that even though those would never all be running at the same time in an outage.

If we had a 240v well pump that we absolutely needed during outages, I think I would go the 2 gennie approach. A cheaper 240v one only used to run that pump and maybe any other big loads I wanted to plug in when it is running for that, and a 2kw inverter for the rest of the house & time. There is a huge difference in fuel consumption between the two. But as already said, we don't have LP, NG, or fuel oil here to take advantage of. And we also haven't had much in the way of outages here the past few years (knock loudly on wood).


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## Sodbuster (Nov 10, 2017)

One thing I wish I had on my generator is idle control that allows the unit to idle when high draw isn't occurring. Mine runs wide open whether I'm running a light bulb or my well pump.


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## firefighterjake (Nov 10, 2017)

Lost power again . . . only for 3 or 4 hours though. Not exactly sure how long since I was outside splitting up some wood.


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## Highbeam (Nov 13, 2017)

Sodbuster said:


> One thing I wish I had on my generator is idle control that allows the unit to idle when high draw isn't occurring. Mine runs wide open whether I'm running a light bulb or my well pump.



US grid power is at a frequency of 60hz. 60 cycles per second is the same as 3600 rpm which is th engine speed of the regular non inverter gensets. You can’t idle them lower or your power output won’t meet specs.

Th inverter sets can idle down because voltage and frequency are created by the computer.


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## Sodbuster (Nov 13, 2017)

firefighterjake said:


> Lost power again . . . only for 3 or 4 hours though. Not exactly sure how long since I was outside splitting up some wood.



Thanks, that makes sense.


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## Agent (Nov 13, 2017)

Just to throw in a few cents of opinion - over the course of the summer, I kept an eye on Craigslist for a nice used genset.  I ended up snagging an 8KW LP/Natural Gas Winco with an automatic transfer switch for $500.  I wouldn't have minded lugging a portable one around, but the price was right.  In hindsight, the ATS is awesome, since I can set it to auto if I'm out of town and we lose power (like earlier this summer).


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## velvetfoot (Nov 14, 2017)

I have several portable generators that are stored without gas.  I started them the other day.  The hardest one to start was the Honda 2k inverter and the easiest was the oldest one with a Briggs engine:  one pull.

Our electric utility came through and trimmed the trees and it made a big difference in outages.  Been a few years now though...  What's interesting to me is that another nearby electric utility is preemptively cutting down as h trees.


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## firefighterjake (Nov 14, 2017)

velvetfoot said:


> I have several portable generators that are stored without gas.  I started them the other day.  The hardest one to start was the Honda 2k inverter and the easiest was the oldest one with a Briggs engine:  one pull.
> 
> Our electric utility came through and trimmed the trees and it made a big difference in outages.  Been a few years now though...  What's interesting to me is that another nearby electric utility is preemptively cutting down as h trees.



Following the ice storm in 1998 when we were without power for 14 days the utility company came through in the Summer and cleared back the tree branches. It was several years before we had even a single power outage.


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## Lanningjw (Nov 16, 2017)

firefighterjake said:


> Following the ice storm in 1998 when we were without power for 14 days the utility company came through in the Summer and cleared back the tree branches. It was several years before we had even a single power outage.


Hey firefighter Jake had the same results with the Honda 2K and my Briggs & Stratton Wheel Horse wheel horse started up right away Honda took several several poles to get that thing fired up but all is good

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk


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## dogwood (Dec 2, 2017)

I have one of those Honda EU7000IS inverter generators. I purchased it primarily to run a wood boiler and its circs , a well pump, freezer and refrigerator.  Some of those require 240v which the Honda can provide.  My research here and elsewhere indicated that pumps, and motors in general (as opposed to computers and other electronic devices) wouldn't run properly, and could be damaged, without the pure sine wave an inverter provides. So I got the pricey Honda inverter generator to cover both of those bases..

The summer before last, I installed a yet to be utilized interlock on the service panel. The installation of the interlock, 30 amp breaker and exterior plug-in went okay, and passed an electrical inspection. Trouble is I don't fully understand how it functions even though its installed correctly. For instance:

     1. Since the double 30 Amp breakers the genset is wired into are on the left side of the service    panel, how does power get to the right side of the panel?

     2. I assume I will be using the Honda gensets 120/240v output to provide power to the service panel. If I am providing 240v to the panel why wouldn't household devices using only 120v get fried? And how can the generator outlet provide both 120v and 240v?

     3. In this thread a few people recommended to Jake that he use a separate regular, non-inverter type generator to run his well pump. If electrical motors are not supposed to run correctly without a pure sine wave, and the well pump is a motor, why would that be okay?

If anyone could answer these questions, I'd appreciate the education. Actually since I didn't know the answers, I was afraid to use the Interlock set-up to plug the generator into the service panel, when the electric went out for a few hours, a couple of weeks ago.  I was scared of frying out every electrical device in the house. Thanks.

Mike


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## maple1 (Dec 2, 2017)

If it passed an inspection there should be no worries.

ETA: I only know enough about wiring to be dangerous but the gennie doesn't exactly put out 240 v in one lump. It puts out 2 x 120v, in 2 legs, which can get combined to make 240v. Or kept split to give 120v to two rows of 120v circuits. Basics of answers to your questions. I think.


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## greg13 (Dec 2, 2017)

maple1 said:


> If it passed an inspection there should be no worries.
> 
> ETA: I only know enough about wiring to be dangerous but the gennie doesn't exactly put out 240 v in one lump. It puts out 2 x 120v, in 2 legs, which can get combined to make 240v. Or kept split to give 120v to two rows of 120v circuits. Basics of answers to your questions. I think.



That is correct. Your utility company supplies 220v to your panel. there are 2, 110v "hot" lines and a common, tie the 2 hots together and you have 220, 1 hot & common gives you 110. 

As for electric motors, they will tolerate small voltage swings with no problem. Electronics not so much.


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## jatoxico (Dec 2, 2017)

At the end of the summer I did a fair amount of research and work sorting out my generator situation. I was getting voltage drop so I went through all connections and upgraded the cord from 12 to 10ga (which didn't give as much as I hoped for) and now am getting good power to all critical circuits. I'm feeding through a 6 circuit switch which I rewired to update to my current needs.

My older gen is a Coleman 5000 W continuous 240V, 30amp(?). It uses about 5g gas in about 8-10hrs depending. Been unfortunate enough to have to rely on it several times for extended periods and feeding it gas, especially when everyone else is trying to do the same thing is tough. So unless you want to store 20+ g it is a PITA not to mention its ungodly loud.

So now I bought a 2000 W, 120V inverter generator that runs 8-10hrs on a gallon and its comparatively silent. I'm feeding through the same 6 circuit switch and I can now get through most outages with the gas I typically have on hand. Its nice that during low demand times I'm not the big set to run a few light bulbs.

There are considerations to feeding both sides of the panel 120 V in phase especially shared neutral circuits. If anyone does this its something you should educate yourself on.


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## begreen (Dec 3, 2017)

jatoxico said:


> At the end of the summer I did a fair amount of research and work sorting out my generator situation. I was getting voltage drop so I went through all connections and upgraded the cord from 12 to 10ga (which didn't give as much as I hoped for) and now am getting good power to all critical circuits. I'm feeding through a 6 circuit switch which I rewired to update to my current needs.
> 
> My older gen is a Coleman 5000 W continuous 240V, 30amp(?). It uses about 5g gas in about 8-10hrs depending. Been unfortunate enough to have to rely on it several times for extended periods and feeding it gas, especially when everyone else is trying to do the same thing is tough. So unless you want to store 20+ g it is a PITA not to mention its ungodly loud.
> 
> ...


That pretty well matches up with our situation. We had the same Coleman generator. It was loud and was not practical for week long outages unless I wanted to stock a lot of gasoline. I tried that for a while until all the 5 gallon containers developed a split on top. Also, none of the UPSs in the house would work on its dirty AC, so I couldn't recharge them. Now we have a 2.4kW Yamaha inverter generator. It easily powers refrigs, freezer, some lights and tv. Everything works fine, it's quite quiet, miserly with fuel and setup to run on gas or propane. I've only run it on propane so far. We always have a few 20# 4.6 gal cylinders on hand and a large 100#, 25gal. cylinder for emergency reserve. There's also a 120gal tank for the cooktop that I could patch into in a serious emergency. Of course, Murphy's law says that as soon as I got the new generartor long outages have ceased. The longest so far has only been a day. The generator has more time on it for maintenance running than it does for emergency power.


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## jatoxico (Dec 3, 2017)

begreen said:


> Now we have a 2.4kW Yamaha inverter generator. It easily powers refrigs, freezer, some lights and tv. Everything works fine, it's quite quiet, miserly with fuel and setup to run on gas or propane.



Yamaha's are great unit and the multi-fuel option is a big plus. It does come down to how much you want to spend considering expected use. I went with the Champion 2000 which is surprisingly well built and thought out for only $450. For example it has a fuel shutoff valve for short term storage and an easy access carb drain on the float bowl for longer term. Equivalent Honda does not either AFAIK.

Its nice to be able to stand next to the unit and not have to raise your voice to talk.


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## begreen (Dec 3, 2017)

Yes, since our purchase Champion has established itself with a good reputation and they make a dual-fuel version. I would probably go for one today if I did it again, though one thing I like about the Yamaha is the automatic switching to economy mode. The Champion is manually switched.


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## fbelec (Dec 5, 2017)

all service panels today are made so if you put a 2 pole 30 amp breaker in for example think of starting at the top of your panel and go down in a straight line top breaker is on phase A 2nd breaker is on phase B 3rd breaker is on phase A 4th breaker is on phase B and so on down the line. if you have a set of circuits running on a 3 wire to the panel black and red to breakers one below the others the shared neutral is good that way 10 amps on one of those wires and 8 amps on the other the neutral see's 2 amps. if you have a shared neutral with the breakers across from each other on the same phase that same circuit see's 18 amps. so if you are running a shared neutral on a 120 generator you have a fire hazard. you could overload the neutral. if you don't understand this then to be on the safe side you should call in a electrician for a quick look see just to make sure. 

if you have your interlock is installed right you should only be able to put the utility on and not the generator breaker and the same for if the generator breaker is on you should not be able to turn on the utility breaker at the same time if so it's not installed right and someone could get hurt.


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## jatoxico (Dec 5, 2017)

fbelec said:


> if you have a set of circuits running on a 3 wire to the panel black and red to breakers one below the others the shared neutral is good that way 10 amps on one of those wires and 8 amps on the other the neutral see's 2 amps. *if you have a shared neutral with the breakers across from each other on the same phase that same circuit see's 18 amps.*



So if the wire for your shared neutral is rated for 15 amps you could exceed its rating because the hots are in phase. My understanding is if your house is wired that way (above bold) it would be incorrect for even line power. For 120 V generator use you are now putting any correctly (for line power) wired shared neutral circuits in phase, potentially overloading the neutral.

This is the most likely reason they don't make a cord for this application and you would have to make your own. Many electricians to feel the likelihood of exceeding the capacity of the neutral in the real world is low, others disagree.

In my case I have several but avoided using them since mostly they are not needed. There is one but I wired and use my transfer switch so only one hot can ever potentially be used. There is also the possibility of energizing the other hot on in the 3 wire so the breaker for that *must be* opened.

If you are using a simple interlock then any circuit could be used and much greater chance of a problem so you would need to ID if you have any shared neutrals. Also you cannot power any 220, obvious but just worth mentioning.


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## Ashful (Dec 5, 2017)

jatoxico said:


> So if the wire for your shared neutral is rated for 15 amps you could exceed its rating because the hots are in phase. My understanding is if your house is wired that way (above bold) it would be incorrect for even line power. For 120 V generator use you are now putting any correctly (for line power) wired shared neutral circuits in phase, potentially overloading the neutral.
> 
> This is the most likely reason they don't make a cord for this application and you would have to make your own. Many electricians to feel the likelihood of exceeding the capacity of the neutral in the real world is low, others disagree.
> 
> ...



You are correct, jatoxico.  Fbelec’s A and B legs, often improperly called “phases” are in permanent anti-phase.  Thus, the current on the neutral wire is the difference in the current between the two legs, the so-called “phase imbalance”.  It is not the sum of the currents, as he seemed to imply.


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## jatoxico (Dec 5, 2017)

Ashful said:


> You are correct, jatoxico.  Fbelec’s A and B legs, often improperly called “phases” are in permanent anti-phase.  Thus, the current on the neutral wire is the difference in the current between the two legs, the so-called “phase imbalance”.  It is not the sum of the currents, as he seemed to imply.


Not being either I'm sure I'm guilty of bastardizing the terms and lingo.


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## fbelec (Dec 6, 2017)

it's late and i must be reading wrong the sum is only added up if the two circuits are on the same leg but if the two circuits are on opposite legs it's the difference. if i am not reading wrong nevermind
i have seen many times the red and black on the same leg and yes the neutral does get overloaded. you know it's been running hot when you look at the white wire and it's brown. then i try stripping the sheath and it's melted to the wires.


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## jatoxico (Dec 6, 2017)

fbelec said:


> i have seen many times the red and black on the same leg and yes the neutral does get overloaded. you know it's been running hot when you look at the white wire and it's brown. then i try stripping the sheath and it's melted to the wires.



This makes me think I should clarify my earlier comment:


jatoxico said:


> Many electricians feel the likelihood of exceeding the capacity of the neutral in the real world is low, others disagree.



The disagreement only apples to MWBC's in use when running off small 120V inverter generators. For example my 2000W only delivers 14.2 amp so the possibility of melting a wire rated for 15 amp without overloading the generator is low. Even so, wires, insulation and connections age so I still take the precautions I mentioned.


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## Ashful (Dec 6, 2017)

@fbelec, you’ve got the idea.  To be honest, I had trouble following the original post, so it’s possible I was answering a scenario other than that which you were describing.  The typical situation in which circuits may share a neutral is not two circuits on the same leg, which would be an illegal setup, but situations where two circuits are on opposing legs, with a shared neutral.  This is legal and common, eg. 4-wire electric range hook-ups.  In that case, which I was describing, the current on the neutral is simply the difference (“imbalance”) in the associated legs.

The very reason it’s not legal to share a neutral between two circuits on the same leg is what you may have been describing, the currents would be summed, and the neutral would not be properly protected by the breakers.

In my shop, I ran 12AWG 3C+GND to quad receptacle boxes, so that I could populate those boxes with both NEMA 5-20 (115V) and NEMA 6-20 (230V) receptacles, using one “hot” and the neutral for the NEMA 5-20’s and both hots (no neutral) on the NEMA 6-20’s.  Which hot leg is used alternates in each box down the length of the circuit, and the current on the neutral ends up being just the imbalance on this circuit.  I verified this with two commercial electrical contractors before doing it, and after some debate in their own offices, both agreed it was safe and legal.  A residential electrician ended up doing the work for me, and he reported having done the same setup before.


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## fbelec (Dec 6, 2017)

jatoxico in your case no harm as long as it's not that way in the main box.

ashful i have had other electricians tell me that what you have is wrong but they don't comment when i say to them other than amperage show me how it's different from that circuit to a main panel. it's wired the same way but with breakers in line.


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## jatoxico (Dec 7, 2017)

Ashful said:


> In my shop, I ran 12AWG 3C+GND to quad receptacle boxes, so that I could populate those boxes with both NEMA 5-20 (115V) and NEMA 6-20 (230V) receptacles, using one “hot” and the neutral for the NEMA 5-20’s and both hots (no neutral) on the NEMA 6-20’s.



How many breakers in the main panel for this, separate one for each or a double pole (if that's the right term)? As I understand it current code requires the breakers to be tied together for standard 115V MWBC's so no one turns off one thinking the circuit is dead and then gets zapped because the other hot is still closed. Curious how you did it.


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## Ashful (Dec 7, 2017)

jatoxico said:


> How many breakers in the main panel for this, separate one for each or a double pole (if that's the right term)? As I understand it current code requires the breakers to be tied together for standard 115V MWBC's so no one turns off one thinking the circuit is dead and then gets zapped because the other hot is still closed. Curious how you did it.


In my case, each of those circuits was fed with a dual-pole GFCI breaker, which are single-levered (internally-linked) on my panel type.  It's a "garage", in terms of code definition, which requires GFCI on 115V circuits.  However, due to the odd wiring configuration, it was not possible to use GFCI outlets, so 230V GFCI breakers was the way to go.

It's a wonderfully convenient setup, if you have a mix of low-current (eg. up to 2 hp) 230V portable machinery, and the usual need for plenty of 115V receptacles.  I have dedicated circuits for the machines that are above 3 hp.


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## jatoxico (Dec 7, 2017)

Ashful said:


> It's a wonderfully convenient setup



Sounds like it's working good for you. My shared neutrals are wired correctly (hots on different legs) excepting that the breakers are not connected as now required. Actually using this to my advantage when running the generator because it allows me to shut down the hot not in use so no possibility of overloading the neutral.

The one MWBC circuit I'm using with the generator has GF receptacles (kitchen) that I was worried would fault but I tested with combination of a good load, a kilo-watt and multi-meter at both the panel and the receptacles and everything checks out. With the other hot breaker open there's no unexpected power making its way to the receptacles fed by the other hot. As maybe you can tell I'm still looking for the gotcha since this is not a standard setup but I think I have it surrounded.


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## metalsped (Dec 10, 2017)

Have you (or anyone else here) ever thought about diesel? Specifically, military MEP machines? These beasts are available either as a genset only, or on a military trailer. They features choice of 120V single phase, 120/240 single, or 120/208 three phase (user selectable).

These machines are built as 'prime power' generators, which means they are DESIGNED to run 24x7. Not so for any of these suitcase generators I have heard mentioned thus far (not a knock against them... different tools for different needs). Especially for places like rural Maine, who frequently see long power outages (I am still getting customers coming to me looking for sets after last months storm... have one going to Bangor in about two weeks time!)... these represent a way to ensure that you will always have power.

They run at 1800rpm, and are quite fuel efficient. You can fine tune hertz and voltage down in .1 increments! They also feature fuel provisions which allow for the sets to refill themselves from 55g drums, 275g oil tanks, etc. They aren't thief bait either (800-1200+lbs).

I do not want any of this to come off as a sales pitch. *It is not*. I do sell these on the side, but I feel they are a method of power generation that more folks should look into! Especially those in the rural parts of the world! 

I could talk all day about these, from a sheer enjoyment standpoint. We lost power in 2013 for 9 days. In that same timeframe, we lost our oil furnace, and all the baseboard in the house. Almost $20k later.. I told myself I would never go through that again. Thats why I started doing this.

I'd love to talk diesel gensets with anyone that would listen! They can be had somewhat more affordably than most folks think too (especially when comparing to the lawnmower engine Generacs that are all the rage today).


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## metalsped (Dec 10, 2017)

There is no way to share my enthusiasm about these machines, without it sounding like I am trying to sell them. Please understand I only bring it up because I am pretty knowledgeable about these sets (I have had about 20 go through my hands in the last year), and information is power!


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