# HELP!! Englander 25-PDVC keeps blowing circuit board fuse



## donbryce (Mar 3, 2013)

Stove is 2008 model, never a problem except replaced ignitor last fall, until now. I pushed the start button and the stove went into the normal start-up cycle, had nice fire going. Suddenly, it completely shut down, no power, no lights, nada. I'm not sure if the start-up cycle finished or if the room air fan had come on or not. Anyway, the 6A fuse in the control/circuit board was blown. No spare taped to the board, or none I could find. I found 2 5A fuses locally, put one in, and when I plugged the stove back in the 2 led numbers under 'heat range' and 'blower speed' lit up '1' '1'. They went out after 10 seconds or so. I pushed the 'ON' button,* immediately blew* another fuse. The fuse on the wiring diagram pasted on the back panel is 5A, not 6A, so any chance the 5A I put in is too small?  

Here's what I've done so far:
- Unplugged the exhaust and room-air fans, attached a 110V lead to each, and they both work fine.
- Unplugged both auger motors, attached the lead, they both work fine
   I removed the upper motor completely to test it, and snugged up the loose collar bolt/set screws, removed all pellets and verified the upper auger turns fine, no binding.
   I tested the lower auger motor in place, attached to the auger. It worked fine, cleared all the pellets from the feed tube.
- Visually checked every wire and connection, nothing melted or chafed, no loose connections.

Until Englander returns to work tomorrow, and I can talk to tech support, is there anything I can test or try without risking blowing my last fuse? I'm hoping one of the local electrical supply shops will have some fuses, tomorrow.

What about unplugging both auger motors and fans, and the ignitor, put the fuse in and try 'ON'? If the start-up cycle begins, then an error code, would that point to one of the fans or motors or ignitor?


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## slvrblkk (Mar 3, 2013)

I would bet either its the ignitor or you have a frayed/rubbed wire somewhere......probably should inspect the wiring very carefully....with the stove unplugged or course....BTW, those fuses are common so the supply house should carry it...are you handy with a volt meter? You can take an ohm reading of the ignitor


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## imacman (Mar 3, 2013)

The pic in the owners manual and the parts list BOTH list the fuse as 6amp.

Slvrblkk, the OP stated "- Visually checked every wire and connection, nothing melted or chafed, no loose connections."

If you unplug the blowers, augers and ignitor and the unit doesn't blow a fuse, then slowly start reconnecting them.

Another thing to try is to do a board hard reset.  

Also, was the unit plugged into a good surge protector?


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## donbryce (Mar 3, 2013)

I'm suspicious of the ignitor too. I'll try unplugging it and turning stove 'on' when I have at least a few fuses in hand, tomorrow. However, the fire was going well when the first fuse blew, so I'd think the ignitor would have been cut off? I'll need tech assistance for any board reset stuff, especially if it needs to be plugged in and fused.
The stove was plugged into a surge protected power bar. Voltage at the plug reads about 109V.


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## SwineFlue (Mar 3, 2013)

donbryce said:


> Voltage at the plug reads about 109V.


 
Are you seeing 109 Volts consistently?   I thought 110 was the minimum (nominally it's 120).


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## Mr. Spock (Mar 3, 2013)

The control board appears to have triac's on them. Could be suspect also.


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## Harvey Schneider (Mar 3, 2013)

You could use the diagnostic mode to turn on the circuits sequentially. That might help to isolate a potential short circuit.
There is also the possibility that you just have a bad case of worst case. If the motors are pulling max current each because their bearings are gummy or the blowers are caked, the combined worst case may be beyond what the fuse will allow. In that case, you won't be able to identify a single cause , but the system as a whole won't make it.


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## donbryce (Mar 4, 2013)

slvrblkk said:


> I would bet either its the ignitor or you have a frayed/rubbed wire somewhere......probably should inspect the wiring very carefully....with the stove unplugged or course....BTW, those fuses are common so the supply house should carry it...are you handy with a volt meter? You can take an ohm reading of the ignitor


So, I put the 2 multimeter probes into the ignitor leads, and on the 20K scale, it read 5.19. No idea what that means? Anyway, I finally found some extra fuses this morning, put one in, and pressed 'ON' with the ignitor disconnected. We have a working stove again! I'll be ordering a new ignitor from Englander this time. The one I put in last fall was off EBay. At the time, over a year ago since I ordered it, I didn't know Englander now ships from inside Canada.
Thanks to all who posted. And if I can learn something, what should the ohms reading on an ignitor be?


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## SmokeyTheBear (Mar 4, 2013)

It depends upon the igniter's wattage.

It is usually between 36 and 48 ohms or much higher than your shorted out igniter was at  less than 6 ohms.


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## Harvey Schneider (Mar 4, 2013)

donbryce said:


> So, I put the 2 multimeter probes into the ignitor leads, and on the 20K scale, it read 5.19.


 


SmokeyTheBear said:


> It is usually between 36 and 48 ohms or much higher than your shorted out igniter was at less than 6 ohms.


5.19 on a 20K scale usually means 5.19K. You can only read an igniter's resistance on the 200 Ohm range. The reading of 5.19K would indicate an open circuit igniter. It may have opened in the process of dying and taking out the fuse.
The 5.19k probably means that your fingers were on the metallic part of the probes when you did the measurement.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Mar 4, 2013)

Harvey Schneider said:


> 5.19 on a 20K scale usually means 5.19K. You can only read an igniter's resistance on the 200 Ohm range. The reading of 5.19K would indicate an open circuit igniter. It may have opened in the process of dying and taking out the fuse.


 
Normally I'd agree except that it was still taking the fuses out so the igniter isn't likely to have 5.19 K across the terminals as then the stove just wouldn't light and the fuse wouldn't go poffy.


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## Harvey Schneider (Mar 4, 2013)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Normally I'd agree except that it was still taking the fuses out so the igniter isn't likely to have 5.19 K across the terminals as then the stove just wouldn't light and the fuse wouldn't go poffy.


I agree that it doesn't all make sense. Cheap meters don't have enough digits to display anything meaningful for a 36 Ohm igniter on a 20k range (it should read 0), but as you say, it went poof three times. Maybe the igniter is open terminal to terminal, but the hot side is shorted to the case. Just conjecture.
The important thing is the OP got his stove running.
I chimed in only because I think it is important that we teach others how to use their tools to trouble shoot a problem.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Mar 4, 2013)

Harvey Schneider said:


> I agree that it doesn't all make sense. Cheap meters don't have enough digits to display anything meaningful for a 36 Ohm igniter on a 20k range (it should read 0), but as you say, it went poof three times. Maybe the igniter is open terminal to terminal, but the hot side is shorted to the case. Just conjecture.
> The important thing is the OP got his stove running.
> I chimed in only because I think it is important that we teach others how to use their tools to trouble shoot a problem.


 
I'd agree with that.

I'd also have issues with those igniters if they can fail in such a mode, but sometimes one gets some stuff that isn't as it should be.


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## donbryce (Mar 4, 2013)

For the record, and would-be buyers, this is the one I bought way back in 2011 http://www.ebay.com/itm/IGNITER-Ign...141?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item256f1142cd It didn't get installed until Sept 2012, months after my original went bad late in the season, around March 2012. So I got less than 6 months use out of it. Warranty was/is 12 months from purchase date, so no coverage for 'spare parts'. IIRC, the locking collar didn't fit the 25PDVC either, I had to use the one off the Englander ignitor.
My original lasted from Sept 2008 until 2012. We typically turn the stove on at least twice a day, often three times, during our heating season Oct - April, so lots of use. I've ordered a new one from Englander, almost the same price (and now shipped from their Canadian warehouse in my province of N.B.).


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## Harvey Schneider (Mar 4, 2013)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> I'd also have issues with those igniters if they can fail in such a mode, but sometimes one gets some stuff that isn't as it should be.


This is the second time, on this forum, that I have read of an igniter failing in a mode that did collateral damage. The other, IIRC, was on a Mt Vernon.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Mar 4, 2013)

Harvey Schneider said:


> This is the second time, on this forum, that I have read of an igniter failing in a mode that did collateral damage. The other, IIRC, was on a Mt Vernon.


 
At least some of the control board makers are getting somewhat of a clue and installing more fuses on their controllers and it is a good thing that some of the controller fuses actually seem to work.  But I always understood that the magic blue smoke was to protect the fuses from going, damn the electronics  . 

To the OP be thankful for the blown fuses it could have been far worse.


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## stoveguy2esw (Mar 5, 2013)

have you figured this out yet? if not call my shop its pretty slow in here as i type this so you should be able to get to a tech pretty quick, or PM me a daytime number when you can be at the stove and i'll see if i can have a tech call you


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## donbryce (Mar 5, 2013)

stoveguy2esw said:


> have you figured this out yet? if not call my shop its pretty slow in here as i type this so you should be able to get to a tech pretty quick, or PM me a daytime number when you can be at the stove and i'll see if i can have a tech call you


 Thanks Mike. All is OK now with the ignitor disconnected.


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## Harvey Schneider (Mar 5, 2013)

donbryce said:


> Thanks Mike. All is OK now with the ignitor disconnected.


Before you spend your hard earned cash on another heater, it would be worthwhile to check the igniter with the multimeter set to the 200 Ohm scale.
Also check to see if either lead of the igniter is shorted to the casing (any reading on the same scale). If there is a short to case the triac on the control board may have been damaged. Without the heater present there is no power to the triac, and therefore, no way to know if it is damaged.


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## stoveguy2esw (Mar 5, 2013)

donbryce said:


> Thanks Mike. All is OK now with the ignitor disconnected.


 

 ok, when you get ready to replace that igniter , you may want to check the circuit  to ensure its not a board issue, i have seen triacs damaged by a grounded igniter (rare but happens) in which case the igniter would recieve power all the time this would obviously burn through igniters rapidly. there are ways to check for this which we could walk you through to ensure its not an underlying issue of which the blown igniters are a symptom of and not the actual problem


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## stoveguy2esw (Mar 5, 2013)

Harvey Schneider said:


> Before you spend your hard earned cash on another heater, it would be worthwhile to check the igniter with the multimeter set to the 200 Ohm scale.
> Also check to see if either lead of the igniter is shorted to the casing (any reading on the same scale). If there is a short to case the triac on the control board may have been damaged. Without the heater present there is no power to the triac, and therefore, no way to know if it is damaged.


 

guess we were "simultyping"   i do have ways to ferret this out a short term test using a different component such as the exhaust blower using diagnostic i can pinpoint the issue.


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## donbryce (Mar 5, 2013)

Harvey Schneider said:


> Before you spend your hard earned cash on another heater, it would be worthwhile to check the igniter with the multimeter set to the 200 Ohm scale.
> Also check to see if either lead of the igniter is shorted to the casing (any reading on the same scale). .


If you can be patient with someone who does not use a multimeter: I set the meter to '200' on the ohms scales. The read-out is '1   .' I inserted the probes into the 2 insulated female spade clips on the ignitor leads, hands off. Read-out stays the same, a '1', some spaces, a decimal '.'.


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## donbryce (Mar 5, 2013)

stoveguy2esw said:


> ok, when you get ready to replace that igniter , you may want to check the circuit to ensure its not a board issue, i have seen triacs damaged by a grounded igniter (rare but happens) in which case the igniter would recieve power all the time this would obviously burn through igniters rapidly. there are ways to check for this which we could walk you through to ensure its not an underlying issue of which the blown igniters are a symptom of and not the actual problem


 The new ignitor will be in hand in a week or so. Should I call tech help and ask for you when it arrives, or can this test be done without a working/new ignitor?


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## SmokeyTheBear (Mar 5, 2013)

Insert one of the probes into a clip and touch the other one to the igniter case.

Then insert that probe into the other clip and touch the case with the other probe.

Report both readings please.

The test that Mike was talking about involves using either a 120 volt device in place of the igniter or using a voltmeter.  He wants to see if there is power in the igniter circuit from the control board when there shouldn't be.


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## heat seeker (Mar 5, 2013)

donbryce said:


> If you can be patient with someone who does not use a multimeter: I set the meter to '200' on the ohms scales. The read-out is '1 .' I inserted the probes into the 2 insulated female spade clips on the ignitor leads, hands off. Read-out stays the same, a '1', some spaces, a decimal '.'.


 
That sounds like a burnt out ignitor. It could still be shorted to the case, so do as the Bear says to check.


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## stoveguy2esw (Mar 5, 2013)

yep, just looking for power where it shouldn't be as well as checking to see if power is there when it should


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## donbryce (Mar 6, 2013)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Insert one of the probes into a clip and touch the other one to the igniter case.
> Then insert that probe into the other clip and touch the case with the other probe.Report both readings please.


 
Readings on the 200ohm scale for both leads/case were as tested when I inserted the probes into the 2 leads: '1   .' This is, I assume, no continuity, or no short to the casing?



SmokeyTheBear said:


> The test that Mike was talking about involves using either a 120 volt device in place of the igniter or using a voltmeter. He wants to see if there is power in the igniter circuit from the control board when there shouldn't be.


 
I rigged up a power cord with 2 female spade clips on one end, 60W light bulb on the other. So, do I attach the 2 clips to the control board lugs for the ignitor, manually get the fire going, and turn on the stove? I'd expect to see the light come on initially, then go out after the 'S' 'U' lights go out, indicating a successful start-up? Or is there another test procedure?


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## imacman (Mar 6, 2013)

donbryce said:


> I rigged up a power cord with 2 female spade clips on one end, 60W light bulb on the other. So, do I attach the 2 clips to the control board lugs for the ignitor, manually get the fire going, and turn on the stove? I'd expect to see the light come on initially, then go out after the 'S' 'U' lights go out, indicating a successful start-up? Or is there another test procedure?


Don't need a light bulb....just use the Volts setting on your volt/ammeter....set it to AC volts, 200 volt scale, or whatever the next higher one above 120 is.  Connect probes to ignitor leads from the control board.  When stove ignitor is supposed to come on, it should read pretty close to 120.


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## Harvey Schneider (Mar 6, 2013)

imacman said:


> Don't need a light bulb....just use the Volts setting on your volt/ammeter....set it to AC volts, 200 volt scale, or whatever the next higher one above 120 is. Connect probes to ignitor leads from the control board. When stove ignitor is supposed to come on, it should read pretty close to 120.


Triacs can leak enough current to give a false "on" reading.This isn't a reliable test. The, low tech, light bulb is straight forward and reliable.


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## imacman (Mar 6, 2013)

Harvey Schneider said:


> Triacs can leak enough current to give a false "on" reading.This isn't a reliable test. The, low tech, light bulb is straight forward and reliable.


OK, I stand informed (not an electrical engineer).  Good to know, though.


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## donbryce (Mar 6, 2013)

Update: I got ahold of tech support, and he suggested connecting the exhaust blower to the ignitor contacts, which I did, and we verified voltage to the ignitor.He didn't tell me how to check if the ignitor turns off after start-up, so I connected my light bulb, lit the stove manually, pressed 'ON', and the bulb come on right away. I waited until start cycle completed, and the bulb went out the instant the 'S' 'U' lights went off, so everything seems normal. I stand by my original contention that the replacement ignitor was faulty. Hope the new one from Englander will last longer....


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