# Efficient Fireplace Without Blower?



## Strat (Sep 16, 2012)

Hello hearth.com community. My wife and I are having our first house built. We live on Long Island, and the house is going to be around 1550 square feet, all on 1 floor. We're getting a wood-burning fireplace, which was a $5,500 upgrade. I hadn't really researched it yet at the time, but now that it's time to start picking out the stone and stuff, I've been looking into it.

I think the standard fireplace it comes with is a zero clearance prefab, a 36" Majestic Royalton BR36, or something similar. I knew fireplaces weren't very efficient in general compared to wood-burning stoves, but after some research, it looks like this setup would be purely decorative, and might even suck warm air out of the house. Atmosphere and ambiance is important to us, but for $5,500 I was really hoping it would also work as a backup heat source in a power outage. Bringing our oil bill down would also be nice. Am I correct in assuming that this sort of fireplace is essentially useless for heating?

We like the look of a fireplace, and want to be able to see the flames. Having the option to sometimes have an open flame (no glass) would be nice too. We also want to put our TV above the mantle, which wouldn't really work with a conventional wood-burning stove.

I've been considering paying out of pocket for an upgrade to the basic fireplace it comes with. I have researched a few efficient EPA II certified fireplaces and have some questions. I looked at the Lennox Brentwood, Lennox Montecito, and Lennox Montecito Estate. These seem great because they are very efficient and have an ambiance very similar to that of a traditional fireplace. My only concern is that they seem to use an electric blower. In addition to probably being noisy, it also won't work in a power outage. I don't want to have to depend on a generator or battery system. If the blower is off, how is the efficiency affected? Without the blower, would these still be more efficient than the Majestic Royalton? Would they work to heat the house in a power outage?

I also looked at the Majestic Sovereign, which seems to be similar to the basic Royalton, but with a tapered firebox, which is supposed increase efficiency a bit. How would this compare to the Royalton and to the EPA certified fireplaces without the blower?

There's a company called Fuego Flame that makes a zero clearance fireplace that's supposed to be extremely efficient without using a blower. The company claims it uses "natural convection" to direct the heat away from the chimney and into the room.

http://www.fuegoflame.com/Products_zero_c.htm

That sounds perfect, but I can't find much information on the company or product, and they don't have any dealers near me. Does anyone know if these Fuego fireplaces are any good or do what they claim?

Are there any other products that I'm missing that would do what I want? My budget is also limited. I can't find prices on a lot of the items I mentioned. Does anyone know approximately how much more the builder will charge me for each of these items over the $5,500 I already paid? Thanks in advance.


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## RNLA (Sep 16, 2012)

Welcome to the forum. The blower on most wood heating appliances is for moving the air out into the home obviously. The power outage situation is a small concern, yes the blower will not work, but how long could you be out of power? One thing is for sure you'll get one hundred opinions here, mostly great advice!


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## Strat (Sep 17, 2012)

Thanks for the reply, RNLA. A power outage in the winter is always a possibility, and would be the only time I would actually _need_ the fireplace for heat. I have no idea how much the builder will charge to upgrade to one of the EPA efficiency models, but if I'm going to be paying more (possibly significantly more) than I already have for this, I'd really like to be able to depend on it for that situation. It could mean the difference between being able to stay in my home or not during a winter power outage that lasts for days or weeks. There's also the issue of blower noise during regular use. If we're in the living room, it'd be nice to have the option of listening to the crackling of the fire instead of the blower noise. I think the blower in the Montecito models works on a thermostat. There's a dimmer that can control the speed of the blower, but I'm not even sure if I'd be able to turn it off completely if I wanted to eliminate the noise.

Does anyone have experience with any of the fireplace models I mentioned?


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## begreen (Sep 17, 2012)

You will not regret investing in a good EPA fireplace. There is a big difference in heat output and reduced wood consumption when compared to a standard contractor-grade, ZC fireplace. A good unit will have a quiet blower, particularly when run on low speed. And some allow the blower to be mounted remotely in a basement for further noise isolation. Take a look at some other models before making the final decision. A BIS Tradition CE, RSF Topaz or Focus 250, Kozy Z42 or maybe an affordable Osburn Stratford?

Word is that Lennox is getting out of this business. Use that as leverage for a discount if you go for one of their models.

http://www.icc-rsf.com/en/rsf/the-topaz-fireplace
http://www.securitychimneys.com/pages/fireplace/high_BisTraditionCE.asp?
http://www.kozyheat.com/z42.html
http://www.woodlanddirect.com/Wood-...Stratford-Zero-Clearance-Wood-Stove-Fireplace

PS: the best investment you can make to keep heating bills low is sealing the house envelope well and insulation. What are the specs for the house insulation?


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## Strat (Sep 17, 2012)

The house will be Energy Star certified, so I think that means it will be sealed pretty tight. One entire side of the house is a completely open area that contains the living room (where the fireplace will be), dining room, and kitchen. That entire side is an open floor plan with cathedral ceilings. The other side of the house has the bedrooms and bathrooms.

Thanks for the model recommendations. Even if I could get it setup so the blower was fairly quiet, I'm still concerned about performance in a situation where I don't have electricity. Will these EPA fireplaces still be at least somewhat useful for heating without electricity to power the blower, or is the only option for that scenario a wood-burning stove? Is Fuego Flame basically a scam?


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## begreen (Sep 17, 2012)

What will be the ceiling height in the fireplace area? That may be a larger determining factor. If 8-10ft, then yes, they will, though not as well as a free-standing stove. But if the house envelope is good, I still think you will be able to heat the place. If there is a cathedral ceiling, then that is a different issue. Heat is going to stratify up near the peak and a fan will be necessary to stir it up.

Is the stove location engraved in stone or is it still open? If you can you post a floor plan and we can help with placement.


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## Strat (Sep 17, 2012)

Thank you so much for your quick and helpful responses. I PM'd you the floor plan to look at. The ceiling above the fireplace will be cathedral/vaulted. I'm not exactly sure how high it is at that specific point, but it will be on the slope up, I think. I don't think we can really move the fireplace from that spot because it's sort of integrated into the overall plan of the house and garage.


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## begreen (Sep 17, 2012)

Yes, I can see that the location is not the issue. The high ceilings will definitely affect power outage heating. I'd invest in a generator if this is a big concern. What are your fuel options? What is the central heating system?


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## teutonicking (Sep 17, 2012)

Strat said:


> Hello hearth.com community. My wife and I are having our first house built. We live on Long Island, and the house is going to be around 1550 square feet, all on 1 floor. We're getting a wood-burning fireplace, which was a $5,500 upgrade. I hadn't really researched it yet at the time, but now that it's time to start picking out the stone and stuff, I've been looking into it.
> 
> I think the standard fireplace it comes with is a zero clearance prefab, a 36" Majestic Royalton BR36, or something similar. I knew fireplaces weren't very efficient in general compared to wood-burning stoves, but after some research, it looks like this setup would be purely decorative, and might even suck warm air out of the house. Atmosphere and ambiance is important to us, but for $5,500 I was really hoping it would also work as a backup heat source in a power outage. Bringing our oil bill down would also be nice. Am I correct in assuming that this sort of fireplace is essentially useless for heating?
> 
> ...


 
Another alternative is to get a battery back up or a small quiet generator that you can use for power failures.  We have frequent power failures in my area (Maryland) with our utility, Pepco.  I bought a small 1600 watt Yamaha inverter generator that is extremely quiet--only about 51-61 dBA.  It is also lightweight, runs for about 10 hours on one gallon of gas, and has enough power for a blower plus a few other small appliances. 

http://www.yamahagenerators.com/Yamaha-Generator-EF2000iS-p/ef2000is.htm


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## Strat (Sep 17, 2012)

We can either go with oil (which is standard) or propane for our regular heating. We'd like to upgrade to propane, so we're looking into that, but it's likely that the initial required investment will be a bit out of our budget, so we'll probably end up with oil. I'm not generally preoccupied with being prepared for major power/infrastructure outages, but I guess I always assumed having a fireplace would give me peace of mind that we'd be prepared just in case, which I'm finding out now is only partially true. I don't necessarily need the fireplace to be able to heat up the entire house to 70 degrees in February, but I'd like to at least be able to keep the living room comfortably warm in a winter blackout.

Even though we'll have cathedral ceilings in the entire half of the house that has the fireplace, a regular wood-burning stove (in the spot where our fireplace is planned to be) would still easily heat the house without a blower system, right? I like wood-burning stoves, but we like the stone/brick surrounding a fireplace, and we'd have to figure out what to do with the TV, since we planned to put it above the mantel. I would also have to see if the builder can accommodate a stove, and what it would cost. Sigh.


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## begreen (Sep 17, 2012)

Looking at the floor plan I'd consider having a freestanding stove as an affordable alternative. I would locate it more centrally, swapping positions with the garage entry. That way you can get a good quality convective stove that looks nice and yet won't break the budget. Total installed cost should be around $4000 for a nice stove like the Enviro Boston, Jotul F55 (or the Oslo), Quadrafire Cumberland Gap or Pacific Energy T5. Definitely plan for installing a good quality, reversible ceiling fan near the peak of the cathedral ceiling.


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## Strat (Sep 17, 2012)

The PE T5 looks nice. We would have to figure out how we'd arrange our TV and stuff, but it's an option I'm considering. We're planning on getting a ceiling fan, but what is the importance of it being reversible? Wouldn't you always want it blowing down?

What about if we got an over-sized EPA fireplace, like the BIS Tradition? I really like the look of it, and like the fact that it can be used with its glass door open to get the atmosphere of an open flame (obviously at the expense of efficiency, but nice for winter holidays nonetheless). Is that the same thing as the Lennox Montecito Estate? Did Lennox buy Security or something? Any differences between the two other than the brand? Given that it's designed for heating up to 2,500 square feet, and my house will only be around 1,550 square feet, I imagine the extra heat output would help compensate for the cathedral ceiling. I also just came across this thread:

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...up-bis-tradition-when-fan-cant-come-on.33404/

Based on that last reply, it looks like the Tradition might perform adequately in the event of a power outage? I would be fine using the blower under normal circumstances, in which case that setup would heat the entire house and help me fight utility costs (right?), but it sounds like maybe even without the blower it might be good enough to keep the living room warm enough to get though a blizzard or something, which I could live with. What do you think?


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## zzr7ky (Sep 17, 2012)

Hi -  I second the suggestion to consider a free standing stove.  The cost will be similar and the performance is much better.

Enjoy!
Mike


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## FyreBug (Sep 17, 2012)

If I may add my 2 cents... Because a ZC is a fully enclosed and insulated unit the heat you will get in a power outage will strictly be radiant heat coming from the front glass. Therefore you should look at something with a large viewing area. 

So am I right to conclude your #1 concern is getting heat during power outage and #2 wood burning as secondary heat any other time (or is it primary heat?)  

Do you have many power outage in your area? If you have a cathedral ceiling even a wood stove would limit its effectiveness if you dont have something to power up the ceiling fans. As others mentioned, there are reasonably priced generators out there.

If you are heating with oil and considering propane why not consider a high efficiency wood burning furnace? There are ways to provide the heat throughout the house even during power shortages. We sell many wood furnaces to Amish folks and obviously they never use the blower yet find ways to get the heat around.

So based on the comments here are your options depending on your budget and other variables. You may want to list your pros & cons for each options. 

1) Wood stove  Aprox cost $1K - 3K + depending on model and venting
2) Upgrade to high efficiency ZC $3K - $10K depending on model and venting
3) High efficiency Wood Furnace with oil backup $3K - 6K depending on model, venting & installation 
4) Combination of the above

Let us know more about your budget and what your overall goal is and we'll all try to steer you in the right direction.


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## FyreBug (Sep 17, 2012)

Also if you are still considering a ZC can I suggest the Valcourt FP10 Lafayette? It's a 2.5 cu ft fireplace Washington State approved (below 4.5g/hr). It vents on 6" chimney. It has a large single glass.

The nice thing about this unit is you can install both a gravity kit and heat dump kit- that is you can vent heat in the same room or upstairs without a blower. 

Also, You can add a 'heat dump' blower kit thermostatically controlled. This means you can heat a room up to 30 ft away - up, sideway or down. Of course this option requires power to operate. So basically you turn the unit into a small furnace and able to heat various area of your house. 

Best of all it's the only High-Efficiency ZC that size that retails at about $3K. 

Disclaimer: We make these.  


hr).


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## Strat (Sep 17, 2012)

Thanks, zzr7ky and FyreBug. A generator is also something I'll eventually look into (since it obviously has a lot more uses than just heating), but I guess I don't want to be completely dependent on it in an emergency. A "combination" of options would be ideal long-term. I would say we have an average number of power outages in my area, but I have the "better safe than sorry" attitude when it comes to this stuff.

My wife has her heart set on a fireplace, so I want to fully explore that to see if I can make it work first before turning to a stove. I found these other threads that also make me think that the big Tradition/Montecito EPA fireplace (or something similar) might fit my needs.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...place-extraordinaire-44-elite-question.86054/
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/quadrafire-alternative-they-are-backordered-for-a-year.20417/

That FP10 Lafayette looks very similar to the Tradition/Montecito, just a bit smaller. I really like that look.


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## FyreBug (Sep 17, 2012)

Strat said:


> Thanks, zzr7ky and FyreBug.
> 
> That FP10 Lafayette looks very similar to the Tradition/Montecito, just a bit smaller. I really like that look.


 
The Montecito Collection is actually smaller than the Lafayette by 20%. It retails for about $3,500 and does not have the heat dump option as the Lafayette does.

The Montecito Estate is much larger however and retails for about $5,500. Vents on 7"

Someone mentioned Lennox is going out of business and that is not correct. They were bought out recently by an investment group and the Lennox name will have to change within 2 years.

BTW what is the Sq ft of you main room where the ZC goes and can you post a plan of your house?


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## begreen (Sep 17, 2012)

I would err on the side of smaller with a tightly insulated house. The 2.5 cu ft Valcourt would be more than adequate. I don't completely agree with fyrebug in that the stove will still convect somewhat. But hot air being what it is, it will convect right up to the ceiling peak. It's not uncommon to find 110F air at the ceiling and 70F at the floor level with a cathedral ceiling. The reversible ceiling fan is to reduce drafts in the winter by not blowing down on you. It will effectively put the heat where you want it, at the outside walls for draft free warmth and greater comfort on the periphery of the living space.




Note that if you are worried about heating in a power outage, what about food storage? Do you have a well or a pumped septic? They both need power too.


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## begreen (Sep 17, 2012)

FyreBug said:


> Someone mentioned Lennox is going out of business and that is not correct. They were bought out recently by an investment group and the Lennox name will have to change within 2 years.


 
Correction, I said they are getting out of this business. They will still continue in their core HVAC business.


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## Strat (Sep 17, 2012)

Thanks so much for all the advice, guys. What do you think about catalytic fireplaces like the Lennox Villa Vista (same as the BIS Panorama, I think)? How does that compare to the Valcourt FP10 Lafayette and Tradition/Montecito for my needs? What are the pros and cons for someone in my situation?


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## firecracker_77 (Sep 17, 2012)

Get a stove or insert designed for heating.  Enjoy the wood heat whenever possible.  A fireplace is nice, but doesn't necessarily throw enough heat unless it's purpose built as others have listed examples of.  Still a stove seems easier and cheaper.


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## FyreBug (Sep 17, 2012)

Strat said:


> Thanks so much for all the advice, guys. What do you think about catalytic fireplaces like the Lennox Villa Vista (same as the BIS Panorama, I think)? How does that compare to the Valcourt FP10 Lafayette and Tradition/Montecito for my needs? What are the pros and cons for someone in my situation?


 
I cant comment beyond the specs of the Villa Vista. Cost is $5,000 + and vents on 7". So if your budget allows for it, the unit and venting will be significantly higher. Also be aware all the Lennox units are approved only on their chimney so shopping for various brand of chimney is out of the question. 

There are great debates here on Catalytic vs Secondary combustion. Typically a Catalytic unit provides longer burn times although I see Lennox only claim 8 hours burn time for this unit. As a rule Catalytic units are larger, vents on bigger chimney and may require the user to be somewhat more careful in its operation.

However, many people feel this is well worth the extra for the longer burn times.


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## FyreBug (Sep 17, 2012)

begreen said:


> Correction, I said they are getting out of this business. They will still continue in their core HVAC business.


 
Sorry... should read more carefully.


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## DiscoInferno (Sep 18, 2012)

I've got a BIS Ultima (AKA Lennox Brentwood) that I use for primary heating in MD.  As mentioned PEPCO has frequent outages, and so we've been without the use of our blower a few times.  While the blower certainly maximizes the heat out of the unit, it still creates a pretty decent convection draft in the bottom louvres and out the top without the blower.  Plenty of heat pours out of the unit, the main issue is (as mentioned) that it goes mostly straight up rather than out as it would with a blower.


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## Strat (Sep 18, 2012)

DiscoInferno said:


> I've got a BIS Ultima (AKA Lennox Brentwood) that I use for primary heating in MD.  As mentioned PEPCO has frequent outages, and so we've been without the use of our blower a few times.  While the blower certainly maximizes the heat out of the unit, it still creates a pretty decent convection draft in the bottom louvres and out the top without the blower.  Plenty of heat pours out of the unit, the main issue is (as mentioned) that it goes mostly straight up rather than out as it would with a blower.



Thanks so much for that info, DiscoInferno. So are you saying that the convection draft you get without the blower from your Ultima is adequate to keep you warm if you huddle around it during a winter blackout? Just looking for a rough comparison to its normal effectiveness and also to a normal non-efficient fireplace. Without the blower, does it warm up most of the room, as compared to normally when it would warm most of your entire home?


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## Ashful (Sep 18, 2012)

Reading the first few posts (sorry if this has already been mentioned, I did not read all), I'd be looking to have the builder simply provide a stone hearth and chimney onto which I could install a free-standing wood stove.  No power outage concerns, and you could get a nice pretty stove approved for open-door burning, such as a Vermont Castings Encore 2-in-1.  It might mean more research for you upfront, if your builder is not familiar with the requirements, but likely worth the investment if this is some place you want to stay long-term.  Another un-mentioned advantage of a free-standing stove is that you can swap them out if your needs change (or were initially mis-calculated).


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## DiscoInferno (Sep 19, 2012)

Strat said:


> Thanks so much for that info, DiscoInferno. So are you saying that the convection draft you get without the blower from your Ultima is adequate to keep you warm if you huddle around it during a winter blackout? Just looking for a rough comparison to its normal effectiveness and also to a normal non-efficient fireplace. Without the blower, does it warm up most of the room, as compared to normally when it would warm most of your entire home?


 
The way our house is laid out, all of the rooms off of the living room (with the fireplace) have headers, while the hallway to the stairs does not.  This path acts like a natural convection channel, so we get a strong natural flow from the fireplace across the ceiling and up the stairs.  Cold air returns down the stairs.  Even without the blower the fireplace can heat most of the house OK if it's not too cold out; we're not relying on the blower to distribute the heat so much as to get more out of the fireplace in the first place.  I'm not sure what the efficiency loss is without the blower, maybe 20%?  It's certainly not 50% or more, the heat wants out of the air space around the firebox and the only way out is into the room.  Think of it as a freestanding stove in an insulated metal alcove.

The fireplace room gets quite hot in any case, there would be no need to huddle.  Some of the more remote rooms can be a little chilly with just the fireplace though.  We built an addition on the other side of the house a few years ago and put a small freestanding stove in that so now it's pretty evenly heated.  With vaulted ceilings and less favorable convection paths I can imagine having a hard time heating a whole house with an fireplace, but the room it's in will always be warm.  You can also get gravity (passive) vents to run to upper rooms with many EPA fireplace models.  I have a forced-air vent leading from mine into the basement that I can use if I ever finish it.

There is no comparison between a non-EPA fireplace (typical Majestic box) and an EPA fireplace.  I've had both, and blower or no blower the EPA fireplace puts out an order of magnitude more heat.  Not to mention the massive air loss from the non-EPA fireplace.


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## begreen (Sep 19, 2012)

Thanks for the report DI.


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## Strat (Sep 21, 2012)

This is a great community and you've all been extremely helpful. Thanks again.

I'm waiting to hear back from the builder as to how much extra money each of these options would cost me. Then I'll figure what I can afford and what I want to do.

I'm now leaning towards one of the smaller EPA fireplace units, in the interest of space. I would have liked not to put the TV over the fireplace, but given our floor plan, on top of the fireplace is really the only option. Anywhere else just wastes a huge amount of space, which we can't afford to waste. So, I want to keep the TV as low as possible so that we don't have to tilt our heads way back to watch it, which means the mantel has to be as low as possible. The smaller units enable you to put the mantel at 42". The larger units require 56". That means we can have the TV over a foot lower if we go with the smaller one. Hopefully with a smaller unit, the bottom of the TV can be at around 50", which isn't awful, and much better than 64".


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## Ashful (Sep 21, 2012)

My mantels are at 71" and 73".  Makes for one heck of a TV viewing angle.


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## Lars (Aug 25, 2014)

Strat said:


> This is a great community and you've all been extremely helpful. Thanks again.
> 
> I'm waiting to hear back from the builder as to how much extra money each of these options would cost me. Then I'll figure what I can afford and what I want to do.
> 
> I'm now leaning towards one of the smaller EPA fireplace units, in the interest of space. I would have liked not to put the TV over the fireplace, but given our floor plan, on top of the fireplace is really the only option. Anywhere else just wastes a huge amount of space, which we can't afford to waste. So, I want to keep the TV as low as possible so that we don't have to tilt our heads way back to watch it, which means the mantel has to be as low as possible. The smaller units enable you to put the mantel at 42". The larger units require 56". That means we can have the TV over a foot lower if we go with the smaller one. Hopefully with a smaller unit, the bottom of the TV can be at around 50", which isn't awful, and much better than 64".


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## Lars (Aug 25, 2014)

I realize that these posts are 2 years old, but I found them when researching the Lennox Villa Vista. Just curious to know what product Strat went with and how it has worked out. We are in NJ as well and our homes sound almost identical. We need to make a decision before the season is in full swing. Had a Quadra fire 7100 in our previous home and loved it, but the house was a lot larger at 3900 sq ft. Need to find something that works with 1,600 sq. ft and one level this time


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## begreen (Aug 25, 2014)

I would start a new post. Strat left the room on Sept 21, 2012. We don't hear much about this fireplace. Searching the internet shows a mixed reviews for this fireplace. More popular in this size is the BIS Tradition CE also sold by Lennox. Also take a look at the RSF Topaz.


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## Strat (Aug 26, 2014)

I got an email notification about Lars' reply. I'm happy to give an update.

We ended up going with the Lennox Montecito (55,000 BTU, 2 cubic feet). The house is 1550 square feet, and the ceiling in front of the fireplace is approximately 14 feet high. We have a reversible fan directly in front of the fireplace on a 2 foot downrod. We've been in the house for a little over a year, so we've only had 1 winter worth of fireplace use so far. Over the winter, we had fires an average of probably 2 or 3 nights a week, and some weekends.

The wood I had last winter wasn't the best, so it was often a struggle just to get a good fire started at all. Because of this, I didn't really experiment much with turning the blower and ceiling fan off to simulate a power outage. After spending an hour or two to get a fire started after a long day of work, I wasn't in the mood to do experiments, and definitely wanted to get as much heat out of my effort as possible.

This coming winter should be better. I cut and split the wood much earlier in the year, so it should be much better seasoned than last winter. I have a lot more wood, it's all already split, and since it won't be green, the fires should be a lot easier to get started and maintain, so I intend to experiment with leaving the blower and ceiling fan off.

However, I can report on how it worked with the blower and ceiling fan on, using mostly green wood. Once the fire has had some time to really get going, the Lennox Montecito had no problem heating our entire house, even on very cold nights. The blower is on a dimmer switch (which also has an off setting). We'd usually run it on high in the beginning (right after the thermostat kicked it on) as it was heating up, and then we'd switch it down to medium. On a 30F night, with the regular oil heat thermostat set to 60F, within maybe 3 or 4 hours of starting the fire, the living room would usually be around 75F and the bedrooms would be around 67F, which is just about perfect. If we planned on spending more time in the living room and didn't want to be sweated out, the living room temperature could easily be lowered by lowering or disabling the blower, adjusting the air combustion control, or by keeping less wood in the firebox. The ceiling fan on reverse seemed very useful for distributing the heat around the house (thanks, begreen). The blower isn't too loud, but is definitely noticeable on high, and barely noticeable on medium. It takes a while for the fireplace to get hot enough for its thermostat to kick the blower on, and there's no way to force it on manually.

The fires required a lot of maintenance and would only burn unattended for about 4 hours. I'd fill the firebox with as much wood as I could fit at around midnight right before I went to bed, I'd set the air combustion control to medium, and the fire would be completely out by 7AM when I woke up. The fireplace would still be warm to the touch, but cool enough that the fireplace's thermostat turned the blower off (usually at around 4 or 5AM, I think). Because of this, I'd have to set the house's oil heat thermostat to around 65F before we went to bed, otherwise we'd wake up freezing. Occasionally there would be some visible embers glowing in the soot (sometimes even for days after). I'm not sure if those would be enough to start a new fire. I didn't try it because I'd be heading off to work, so there was no point in heating an empty house when I knew the fire would be out by the time I got home 9 or 10 hours later. I'm hoping that I can get better burn times this coming winter (they advertise up to 8 hours) by closing the air combustion control more. I didn't go much below medium last winter because I was using green wood, and I was nervous about creosote build-up. With better seasoned wood, that will be less of a concern, so I can try closing the air combustion control all the way before I go to bed to see if I can increase burn times.

I hope this was helpful. Let me know if you have any other questions and I'll be happy to try to answer them. Maybe if I remember, I'll try to post an update this coming winter after I experiment with how it works with the blower and ceiling fan off.


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## begreen (Aug 26, 2014)

Welcome back. I'm glad you like the Montecito. That is the same as a BIS Tradition CE and a good unit. As you are finding out, EPA fireplaces and stoves really want fully seasoned wood. You will find a world of difference in operation with fully seasoned wood. 

If it is ash, alder or doug fir, late winter stacked and split wood "may" be ready for burning by late fall depending on how thick the splits are and how and where it was stacked and summer weather conditions. But if it is a dense hardwood like oak or hickory it wont' be fully seasoned for a couple years. To determine how dry the wood really is, take a couple thick splits and re-split them, then use a moisture meter on the freshly exposed face of the wood. If it is not <20% the wood is not fully seasoned.


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## Strat (Aug 26, 2014)

Thanks, begreen. I have around a cord split, all of which is unfortunately black (basically red) and white oak. Most of it was split between this past March and May. I know oak really needs more time than that, but I tried to compensate by making the splits very thin so they'd season faster. It's stacked neatly and every piece gets a lot of sun and wind, but it's not covered. Last winter, most of the wood I burned was split in the fall, and the splits were a lot bigger, so I should at least be a lot better off this year, even if it's still not ideal. I have a moisture meter, so before my first burn this fall I'll test a freshly re-split piece and see what it says. If I'm remembering correctly, I tested a few pieces that way back in June and the moisture content wasn't so bad. I think some of the smaller ones were below 20% already, assuming my meter was accurate. My moisture meter is the General Tools & Instruments MMD4E. Is that a fairly accurate meter? Do you find that making thinner splits can speed up the seasoning process significantly?


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## begreen (Aug 26, 2014)

Yes, thinner splits will dry out faster. Be careful though, a fireplace full of them will burn very intensely if the wood is dry. That could lead to an over-firing situation. In that case it would be good to mix them with some thicker splits. Note that unless the thicker splits are fully seasoned you will not be seeing the full heating potential of the fireplace. You might consider buying a couple cords now for next year if you have room to stack them. 

Several folks have bought that moisture meter and are happy with it.


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## Kamiobi (Sep 6, 2014)

I thought I would chime in here because I just checked some oak I split in November 2012 thinking it might be ready for this year and it was still at 24% and these weren't very big splits.


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