# Lil Powerhouse Boiler?



## Hosted (Jan 9, 2009)

I was wondering if anyone has actually seen a lil powerhouse boiler?  The website is www.lilpowerhouse.com.  I have been looking for an inexpensive boiler for my house and was wanting some input on these.  I don't know if it would be a good unit or if it is just a lot of talk.  I thought picking out a boiler would be a pretty straight forward project, but there are so many choices I'm started to go nuts.  Thanks in advance.


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## shoeboxlen (Jan 9, 2009)

the sticker camo on the door deffinitly inspires confidence :-/


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## stee6043 (Jan 9, 2009)

Hmmm...if all of the below statements from their website were true I think they would be putting a lot of other boiler manufacturers out of business...32 hour burn time???  Turbosized draft fan???  All of this with a 4" flue connection....

Q.  Why Does the Lil Powerhouse burn so much less wood than outdoor wood 
furnaces ?
_______________________________________________________

A.  Combustion takes time, temperature, turbulence, and the proper fuel to air 
ration.  Our turbosized draft is designed to produce the most perfect combustion 
which in turn produces more than twice the firebox temperature with less than or 
comparable chimney temperatures.
Q.  What happens if I don’t fire the Lil’ Powehouse?  Will it freeze up like an 
outdoor boiler and water stove?
_______________________________________________________________
A.  No.  This is a non toxic antifreeze system designed to be fired only when you 
want the heat.
Q.  What kind of burn times can I expect?
______________________________________________________________
A.  One customer heats 3500 sq feet of house burning dry oak.  He gets 32 hour 
burn time in the dead of winter.


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 9, 2009)

That website is so full of misinformation (softwood has a greater heating value than hardwood?) and lack in information (type of steel used; construction, warranty, certifications, etc.) that basically all they're selling is dreams and hype, from what I can see.

If you want a good, conventional and relatively inexpensive boiler that will perform and last, you can do a lot better. One that I owned was the Marathon Logwood. There are others. This one looks like a real crap shoot to me.


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## Duetech (Jan 10, 2009)

Per pound pine is hotter than oak but you have to use a lot more bulk to get the weight. Even so I liked their "Why Us" page and #"16. Lil Powerhouse using small dry wood saves you from the uncostly expenses of chiropractic bills resulting from handling huge logs or heavy green logs." ...How do you save money when it is uncostly?


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## jdew1920 (Jan 10, 2009)

Funny really.

My Favorite: "Air to fuel ratio is expressed as the massive air used to burn a unit mass of fuel.  Air 
to fuel ration is important for accomplishing efficient combustion."


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## Duetech (Jan 10, 2009)

Ya think maybe they know a politician? I'm sure they could explain that!


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## Dave T (Jan 10, 2009)

The first design of this boiler was a bolt together including the fire box, it was a flop they may have changed it but you 
won't see one in my backyard a 30 year old Tarm is ten times the unit of one of these powerhouses brand new...Dave


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## Tree farmer (Jan 10, 2009)

Finally someone made a boiler I can use in my treestand!   Although I think my chemical hand warmers may give me more reliable heat.


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 10, 2009)

I've noticed that some of these marginal boiler mfgs. and dealers tend to resort to spewing nonsense and irrelevant information to try to obscure the fact that their product is, at best, nothing new. It's the old "baffle them with bullsiht" sales approach. There's an old thread around here somewhere from a Taylor dealer on Ebay that's a classic example of that.

Here, I found the thread:

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/11205/

Here's what the dealer told me when I asked about the overall efficiency of his boiler:

“I know there are a number of rating systems for the efficiency of a wood burning stove- but publishing a rating without pages of qualifications really isn’t fair to a regular person without ASHTO access and the ability to interpret the results. Taylors are rated between 87 and 93 percent efficient- based on a number of test conditions. That being sais- anyone can understand that the bigger the water capacity of the stove the more efficient it is in wood useage since it’s the water that stores the heat. Taylor and the various knock-offs have the largest water capacity in the industry. We heated a 2600 sf home in NH, had plenty of hot water and provided over 200 gallons of hot water to our horses in the NH winter, using a Taylor 260- so small it’s not made anymore- and 3 cords of mixed green unsplit hardwoods A YEAR.....It’s the water that does it......more water = less wood.”

So there you have it, folks--more water = less wood.


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## Rick Stanley (Jan 10, 2009)

WOW!! My rig oughta MAKE wood.........................


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## webbie (Jan 10, 2009)

I think you guys are jealous because:
"One customer heats 3500 sq feet of house burning dry oak.  He gets 32 hour
burn time in the dead of winter."


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 10, 2009)

Actually, I want the boiler that's so small it's not made anymore. You know, the one that heated a 2,600 square foot house in New Hampshire plus all the DHW and 200 gallons of water a day for horses--on 3 cords of wood. I'm guessing the loggers' union got that model discontinued.


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## smokinj (Jan 10, 2009)

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> Actually, I want the boiler that's so small it's not made anymore. You know, the one that heated a 2,600 square foot house in New Hampshire plus all the DHW and 200 gallons of water a day for horses--on 3 cords of wood. I'm guessing the loggers' union got that model discontinued.


Heck Iam fine with just the 32 hr thing. Hedge sould be good for a week to 10 days!


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## jdew1920 (Jan 11, 2009)

CZARCAR said:
			
		

> jdew1920 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Air to fuel ratio is the MASS of air to mass of fuel.  Massive air?  What is "Air to fuel ration"?  Also A/F by itself only tells you how much air to how much fuel.  Stoichiometric A/F is the chemically perfect ratio of air to fuel for complete combustion, so being able to control A/F is important - maybe that's what he was trying to say.  Who knows, anyways I guess my point was, besides it being filled with mindless rambling, the spelling & grammar are pretty bad.


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 11, 2009)

I would say that mindless rambling pretty much sums it up. He could have said: "This boiler is designed to burn wood" and imparted the same amount of useful information.


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## Fred61 (Jan 11, 2009)

Air to fuel ratio is the MASS of air to mass of fuel.  Massive air?  What is "Air to fuel ration"?  Also A/F by itself only tells you how much air to how much fuel.  Stoichiometric A/F is the chemically perfect ratio of air to fuel for complete combustion, so being able to control A/F is important - maybe that's what he was trying to say.  Who knows, anyways I guess my point was, besides it being filled with mindless rambling, the spelling & grammar are pretty bad.[/quote]

I wouldn't judge the outfit in spelling and grammar. If we did, we would never have purchased an Eko after seeing to printed material coming from New Horizons!


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## shoeboxlen (Jan 11, 2009)

I was waiting to read on the page for those extra cold nights just put in a 12 pack of bud the alcohol injection will increase thermo out put for an extra kick insertjim beam.......................... GIT R DONE


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## Cheap wood heat (Feb 5, 2009)

Hi all I am the manufacture of the LILPOWERHOUSE outdoor wood fired hydronic heater and would be happy to answer questions for you!! I will direct you to government sites that will give you good answers on facts of burning wood if you desire!! After finding and reading this site I find good answers in those who do thier research and humor in  those who don't!! I really like the one that referances storing heat in water as being better than leaving the energy stored in the wood!! Set a pail of  hot water outside and see how long it stay's hot!! Then through a log of wood outside today and burn it tommorow it  still gives you hot water tomorrow!! Not really rocket science!!


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## Eric Johnson (Feb 5, 2009)

Welcome to the Boiler Room, Cheap wood heat.


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## Dave T (Feb 5, 2009)

Thanks for posting in the boiler room and informing people like me about the product..I do have a few questions..
Is your boiler a "bolt together"?? If you changed this design WHY?? Does your boiler have a secondary chamber where gasification takes place?? Is there any thermal mass in your boiler (or concrete of some sort)?? How many gallons of water is contained in your boiler??Where are you located how avalible are parts for your boiler?? Thanks, Dave


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## Cheap wood heat (Feb 5, 2009)

TacoSteelerMan
Our boiler is built as a bolt together and called a STD and also as a welded unit and called a WOW !! No secondary chamber as all you need is a temp above 850 deg. in main fire box to burn the gasses! No concreat or better termed refactory brick!!  Our hydronic heater holds 25 gallons! We are located in Little Falls Minnesota and parts are always avaiable as they are all jig built so any new part off the jig will fit any old furnace!! 
Thanks


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## kenny chaos (Feb 5, 2009)

Hello Cheap Heat-
They say that your advertising has a lot in common with the people on this thread, mindless rambling. :lol:
Is it true that I could expect 32 hour burn times?
Does it have a btu/hr rating?
What kind of accesories does it come with (pumps, fans, controllers, etc.) and what brands are they (reputable)?
What guage/thickness and quality metal is used for the boiler and the firebox?   
I agree that gasifiers are way over rated, not that you said that.
What kinda warranty do you respect? 
Anything else you can add.
Now would be the perfect time.
Thanks-
Kenny


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## Cheap wood heat (Feb 6, 2009)

Hi Kenny how are you!!
The 32 hr burn time is a customer with a super insulated house burning dry cured oak, his house requires less than 50,000 btu's per hr in the dead of winter!! As for you I need to know what type of heat you have forced air ect. as well as how many btu's your current system is rated at!! I also need to know what type of wood you intend to burn! As you can see sq footage means very little it has very little to do with btu demand ! A 500 sq ft house with busted out windows just won't heat well!! 
The max btu's per hour rating is 500,000 btu's per hour!! And it will hold that if you keep wood in it!!  wow But the rest of the story is you will have short burn times at this rate as our furnace holds 1.8 million btu's of dry cured oak per fill!! So if you require 100,000 btu's per hour to heat your house you would have a 13 hr burn time with properly insulated lines, as the cheap lines can loose 2-3 times as much heat as a house requires!! We build an efficient furnace so lets not waste the heat in the transfer to the house!!
All components can be purchased from wwgraingers which is a very well know manufacture although we purchase most products direct as an OEM!!
The firebox and water jacket is built from 16 ga. cold rolled steel !! And this is a must to transfer the heat from the firebox to the water as fast as possible !!The heavier the steel used the poorer the transfer and the more heat that goes out the chimney!!
Gasification is a must in building a efficient furnace ! But the  european design that has been used in europe for the past 1500 years is not very efficient (better know as down drafts) they will burn clean but it is almost impossible to extract the heat out of the gasses before they exit the furnace!! So we try build for clean air and efficency!!
The what kind of warranty do I respect I'm not sure I follow ! Is this a miss print ? If not please explain so I may answer it to the best of my abillity!!
I can go on for hrs but I don't want to ramble!!
Thanks
Paul


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## kenny chaos (Feb 6, 2009)

Thanks for all that Paul and by all means, feel free to ramble.
The more I/we know, the better we can judge.
I was inquiring about any warranty.
You say components can be purchased from Graingers?  What is included and what is extra?
Thanks Paul-
Ken


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## brad068 (Feb 6, 2009)

Paul, the best thing you can do is to stop right there. You obviously need to do more research and homework. 16 Ga.!?! are you kiddin' me!? Thats exhaust tubing for christ sake!! DD's aren't very efficient! That design is the standard for the best efficiency. I will even admit that and I'm a huge garn fan. Have you seen a DD or a garn or a seton/greenwood in person in action? My guess is no. Because if you did you wouldn't be typing. Grainger a manufacturer? To the best of my knowledge they are a industrial supply company.

You are correct about the poorly insulated underground piping but that is about it!

I got a ? for ya'. Which is more efficient? A chunk wood heater burning full out or a chunk wood heater cycling?

I did my homework on wood boilers and could of built anyone I wanted to but chose the garn design. Here is the link to my home built unit so you can see that I'm not blowing smoke and do know what I'm talking about. https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/11262/

I'm sure in your mind your unit is the best unit for the price, but you don't bring a knife to a gun fight.


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## kenny chaos (Feb 6, 2009)

Garnification said:
			
		

> Kenny, the best thing you can do is to stop right there. You obviously need to do more research and homework. 16 Ga.!?! are you kiddin' me!? Thats exhaust tubing for christ sake!! DD's aren't very efficient! That design is the standard for the best efficiency. I will even admit that and I'm a huge garn fan. Have you seen a DD or a garn or a seton/greenwood in person in action? My guess is no. Because if you did you wouldn't be typing. Grainger a manufacturer? To the best of my knowledge they are a industrial supply company.
> 
> You are correct about the poorly insulated underground piping but that is about it!
> 
> ...




You talkin to me?  Huh?  Are ya?  I din't think so.
Sober up and try again on the morrow.


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## brad068 (Feb 6, 2009)

kenny chaos said:
			
		

> Garnification said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 Thanks Kenny!! I edited it.


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## Cheap wood heat (Feb 6, 2009)

Hi Garnification
So I would like to solve your puzzel!! what you now need to give me is the rest of the information needed for the equation !! I need it all or your question is baseless !! How is the heat extracted from the fire in the chunk heaters ??How many btu's does the chunk heater hold?? How will we we use the heat (btu's per hour transfered off the system)? what type of device is used to extract the heat radiant hry heat,forced air, water to air,water to water,radiant base board,radiant tube ,cast iron radiators?? What type of wood dry, green?? what type of controls on the chuck heater cycling heater! are the cfms the same on both units! See if you want good answers you need to ask real questions!! Its like me asking so what color is my horse!! Well if thats all you get to go on all you can do is guess!! So give me the rest of the equation so I can answer !!
Then lets talk your thermal storage theory!!   Give me gallons of liquid held in your garn like unit then give me surface area of heat exchange,also needed is sq footage of outside shell and how it is insulated so we can see heat loss of your unit! What is ambient air in building? How many cubic feet is your fire box??  What is btu per hour heat draw off of this unit? How many cfms are used for your combustion?? Is this unit pressurized or vented?? What is exhaust stack  size?? Than we can start to calculate this out and see how good it is!! I also would like for you to tell us  how frequent you load your unit and how many gpms you are flowing on your unit as well as hot out and return line temps to house or buildings heated so when we are done we can see if your #s  match !!I will also work with you to pick a government web site with both dry wood weight per # and btu,s per cord so we can calculate this in agreeable terms!! Utah state forrestry extension web site would have this and work for me or you chose one and let me know!!


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## brad068 (Feb 6, 2009)

Paul, you by chance aren't a politician are you? I asked some simple questions and you skate around them and give me nothing but a waste of time. Do you understand why we use thermal storage, because if you don't than I can understand why you can't answer which heater is more efficient. 

Paul, John Doe has a 1972 Ford pinto with 116,273 miles, 2.3L automatic, blue, with one tire(driver rear), having 2psi less air pressure than the other (4),one occupant (driver), engine up to n.o.t.

He is going to drive this car 20 miles in downtown Chicago and 20 miles on the open highway at a steady 55 mph. 

Which drive is going to be more fuel efficient? No politician answer either!


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## kenny chaos (Feb 6, 2009)

Mr. Cheap-
Would you perhaps have one of your units operating in the Rochester/Buffalo area?
And again please, what type of warranty do you offer?
Thanks-
Kenny


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## Tarmsolo60 (Feb 6, 2009)

Garnification said:
			
		

> Paul, you by chance aren't a politician are you? I asked some simple questions and you skate around them and give me nothing but a waste of time. Do you understand why we use thermal storage, because if you don't than I can understand why you can't answer which heater is more efficient.
> 
> Paul, John Doe has a 1972 Ford pinto with 116,273 miles, 2.3L automatic, blue, with one tire(driver rear), having 2psi less air pressure than the other (4),one occupant (driver), engine up to n.o.t.
> 
> ...



Depends on when the Pinto gets rear ended ;-P


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## Eric Johnson (Feb 6, 2009)

Paul,

I agree with Garnification. How about some answers to our specific questions about your boiler rather than a whole lot of theory and hype?

Again: What is your warranty?
What components are supplied with your boiler (pumps, aquastats, blowers, etc.)?
What brands of components do you use?

These are questions not answered on your website and it seems to me that they would be basic information for any serious potential customer.

I also agree that a downdraft gasifier is probably one of the most efficient designs around. I know that Garnification prefers the Garn design, but I think we both believe that each design uses a different approach to getting the same result.

How can you say that a Euro-style gasifier is relatively inefficient when you have temps in the secondary burn chamber of 2,000 degrees F. and 300 degrees F. at the exhaust outlet? Where did the 1,700 degrees go? Can you describe the efficiency of your boiler in similar terms?

On the question of heat storage, comparing an unburned chunk of wood to a bucket of water sitting out in the cold is, in my view, an irrelevant comparison.


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## webbie (Feb 6, 2009)

850 is not nearly enough to cleanly burn all the wood gases.........

As many of us have learned the hard way, there are two parts to the equation - combustion - and then heat exchange. Some freestanding stoves like the VC Everburn models do a good job of igniting the gases...ending up with 1500 degree and hotter internal temps! But because they are limited by design (freestanding stove), they cannot squeeze out all the heat from those gases before they exit the stove - and that is why there has been problems with internal overheating, warping and flue collars glowing red.

A boiler can solve all these problems, especially with storage. You can use extensive firetubes or other methods to extract the heat after high temp combustion...and then, if the house does not need the heat instantly, you can store it in water. 

Anyone who doubts the idea of storage mass should look at the heating of the earth, oceans and other such stuff...even the heating of a dark floor or wall in a passive solar setup. Or, just look at a hot water DHW tank! Yes, there is such a thing as instant hot water heaters but they don't burn wood - and have to be very high BTUs and instant-on.


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## Ugly (Feb 6, 2009)

This has been painful to read. I actually squirmed in my seat.

People on this forum pretty much know the value of burning wood or none of us would be here. We'd be in the "convince me I need to burn wood forum" 

The questions that keep getting repeated and not answered concerning warranty, construction etc.. make me wonder if there are any answers. 

If I put a drum of boiling water on a bed of burning wood, at least I'd know how to get it fixed, how long it would last and what equipment was supplied. I mean seriously, even a used car salesman tells you what options the model has. (no offense to the used car salesmen among us for using them in the comparison, because really there is none)

Regards,
Ugly


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## Cheap wood heat (Feb 6, 2009)

Hi moderator!
Would be happy to answer your direct questions.

warranty?
WOW has a 90 day warranty!
STD has a 3 year warranty!
warranty is a parts replacement warranty not just some limited manufatures defect in materials ans workmanship that basicly covers a cracked weld !!
Why I say this is some even have a life time warranty which in most states is seven years! 
You don't need a lawer to read our warranty and tell you it disclaimed everything as so many do!  I'm not a politician I am a person who cares about his customers after the sale!
 Components included in price aquastate and this is a Love digital control!!
Fan is a Dayton 
Solenoid is Dewyer
Then you asked about the pump we use Taco pumps but they are sold seperatly as the only way to know what pump someone needs is to first design thier system so I don't see how someone of knoledge could expect that to be part of the system!! Yes some companys include a pump but I would sure be worried of thier system if they don't first understand your needs!!
Ok lets talk gasification on the garnification system see the fan he is useing? looks like about a 2-3 hp motor what is electrical consumption?? then he states it will pull a large chunk of wood through if not careful that piece did not burn then!
With the size of the fire box  the cfm's must  be way off for efficient combustion !(fuel to air ratio) unless the fan is so inefficiant and then why such a monster?
Next with this type of gasification we will burn the whole load of wood and transfer heat into water for later use  correct? what we know is D/D gasifcation runs the smoke through the coal bed to use the 1100 degree coal bed to ignight the gasses correct?   So each time you load the furnace you must start a new fire correct! You now don't have a coal bed so you will not get 1700 degree fire till you have burn't a fair portion of the wood! During this process you will be creasoting up the flue tubes so they loose size as well as heat transfer ability! 
OK I hope we are on the same page so far and if we are or aaren't let me know and we can go to the next step of this equation!!
NOW YOU ASKED MORE QUESTIONS ON MY UNIT AND I WILL EXPLAIN THAT AS WE GO ON BUT FIRST WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO TALK IN THE SAME LANGUAGE! AND D/D GASIFICATION SEEMS TO BE WHAT IS THE ISSUE HERE!!
YOU HAVE 2 TYPES OF ANSWERS IN LIFE THE GUESS THIS IS THE WAY IT IS AND THE CALCULATED ONE TO GIVE THE TRUES ANSWERS !
EVERYTHING HAS AN EQUATION TO GET TRUE ANSWERS BUT LEAVE OUT 1 PART AND THE EQUATION BECOMES INVALID!!


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## Cheap wood heat (Feb 6, 2009)

Hi webmaster
850 degrees is the spontaious cumbustion point of the wood gasses not the altimate burn temp anything below 850 will not burn the gasses !!
So how do we get to the 850 is the first piece of the puzzel!!


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## Eric Johnson (Feb 6, 2009)

Depends on how you run it. Some people here start new fires every time, while others try to keep a live bed of coals over the nozzles at all times. The guys who do cold starts can get from nothing to gasification in under 10 minutes. It takes some practice and experience, but it's not that hard to do. No creosote involved. So within 10 minutes you've got gas burning at around 2,000 degrees and a 300-400 degree stack temps at the outlet.

What are the average stack temps on your boiler?

I'm one of those "keep a nice bed of coals in the firebox at all times" kind of DD operators. It works well in my situation because I have a big heat load. So any time I refill the firebox, I get instant gasification. No creosote there, either.

I fail to see how a standard firebox-and-grate boiler with no refractory and no secondary burn chamber can compete with a DD gasifier. Does your boiler produce any creosote at all? The only place I ever get any creosote is in the firebox.


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## Cheap wood heat (Feb 6, 2009)

I would like to make one thing clear i'm not against gassification but there are far better ways than down drafting!! 
Also down drafting can be far more efficient than alot of the outdoor boilers on the market today !!
Lets just no think its a god send quite yet because there are to many issues left undisclosed!!


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## Cheap wood heat (Feb 6, 2009)

1100 degrees is where we want to be to burn more efficently but is not the spontaius cumbustion temp! The hotter we get the cleaner we burn! 
If It required 1100 degrees a cat would not work as they only take you up to 900 degree!  The gasses light off and they are what create the heat to get to the higher burn for top efficiency!


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## brad068 (Feb 6, 2009)

Cheap wood heat said:
			
		

> 1100 degrees is where we want to be to burn more efficently but is not the spontaius cumbustion temp! The hotter we get the cleaner we burn!
> If It required 1100 degrees a cat would not work as they only take you up to 900 degree! The gasses light off and they are what create the heat to get to the higher burn for top efficiency!



A catalytic! who uses a catalytic on a gasifier. Gasifiers burn so clean that they don't need a combustor. If you are using a cat on your boiler than you, my friend, have a long way to go in combustion chamber design. My unit will easily pass 2000*F in the secondary chamber which in turn leaves nothing but co2 and water. Doesn't get much cleaner than that.

You still haven't answered my question about seeing several different gasifiers in person and working. But I think I know what the answer is going to be anyway.


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## sparke (Feb 6, 2009)

Cheap wood heat,  Please stop using exclamation points at the end of every sentence.  You are giving me a headache!!   That said,  can we cut through the chase?  Here is the bottom line: many people do not believe your boiler can obtain the efficiencies you are claiming they achieve.  So instead of discussing how other boilers work (which we all have a very good idea).  Can we discuss what makes your boiler so efficient?  Maybe you have stumbled onto something in your design.  If you have I suggest you get your boiler tested by Omni- labs.  They are known in the business and people generally trust their ratings.  The UL/CSA rating speaks for itself...


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## Cheap wood heat (Feb 7, 2009)

Sparke
Seems everyone would like to complain about somthing .
So I have sold 7500 outdoor boilers in my life been involved with the outdoor boiler bussiness since 1979,built free standing wood stoves b4 that and do have my own test equipment mounted to my furnaces every day to monitor btu's ,burn temp ect!! Have burnt and  tested the garn, greenwood , central boiler, heatmore, woodmaster, taylor, hardy,dahl, nordway,nordine, johnson and tarm and many indoor units!!.  Lets here your story??
I beleive there are Alot of people with very little knoledge here makeing big statements  so they built 1 furnace and have copied some other  furnace to start with seems you guys have some real knoledge. So alot of the coments here sorry coments come from people with seeming little knowledge and all I have asked is if you would give me some info for what you are saying so that I may give you back an educated answer and I just get more criticism towards my furnace I have answered most questions here but when you first sling mud you should at least be able to back it up!!
If you have a boiler that you have built and tested with omni tell me about it otherwise why do you make this statement to me?? I must prove myself but you don't need to ??


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## kenny chaos (Feb 7, 2009)

Paul-
You gotta understand that there are a lot of "industry" people on here who need to protect their own thing and others who just jump on the most popular bandwagon.
I appreciate your K.I.S.S. attitude but as a simple lay person, I wonder how good your product can be compared to all the others at twice the price?
My dad told me that you get what you pay for and I've found that to be true most of the time, certainly not always.
Is it really too much to ask for a referance in my area?
If you hit the PM button down under my name, you can send me a Private Message. 
Thanks-


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## Floydian (Feb 7, 2009)

Cheap wood heat-To me this forum is about people providing  information to help folks make informed decisions. I must say I don't think you have done a very good job of that. I am here to learn. So far I find your comments to be misleading at best.

To quote sparke:"Can we discuss what makes your boiler so efficient?"

Noah


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## kenny chaos (Feb 7, 2009)

While I certainly don't know a thing about this boiler or its manufacturer, my intuition tells me he's one of those who is better with his hands than the spoken word so maybe a little patience and understanding will help set things right?


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## brad068 (Feb 7, 2009)

Guys, I'm outa here.

Paul the best advice I can give you is to get out of your "Branch Dividian" compound and see the rest of the world.

Old sayin, "you can't push a rope"

 Its been fun,

Garni


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## EForest (Feb 7, 2009)

Paul,

You must feel like an African American from 1950's Mississippi trying to sit at the front of the bus.
Sell your stuff, prove your worth, or get the F... off the bus.

No offense but please defend yourself or give it up.

best of luck,
Ed


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## Eric Johnson (Feb 7, 2009)

kenny chaos said:
			
		

> Paul-
> You gotta understand that there are a lot of "industry" people on here who need to protect their own thing and others who just jump on the most popular bandwagon.



I don't see any "industry" bias in this thread, other than a manufacturer making unsubstantiated claims about his product. Paul appears to be making the sales pitch that he gives to people who don't know anything about wood boilers, which is to say most people who just want to save money and get the fossil fuel monkey off their back. Mention 32-hour burn times and some secret technology that produces superior efficiency, and you've set the hook. It's all about telling people what they want to hear.

I don't mean to be harsh, Paul, but I've heard enough OWB sales pitches over the years to recognize the pattern. Long on big claims and short on relevant facts. How is your boiler different in design from, say, a Marathon Logwood or a Royall 6150? I've bought, installed and operated both, and I'd say you're using the same basic technology.

Of course, how would we know? If you go to the New Horizon or the Tarm USA or the EconoBurn websites, the first thing you see is a cutaway diagram showing how the boiler works, along with specs, certifications, warranty information, etc. Those boilers are expensive, carefully-engineered and -manufactured appliances. Yet they're up-front about the basic technology. And, as anyone who follows this forum knows, they work as advertised.

Claiming that your boiler is superior is one thing; proving it is the challenge.

And finally, it's not a puzzle and it's not an equation. It's about explaining how the technology works in plain terms that we can all understand and analyze. You're asking us to drink your Kool-Aid so that you can explain your boiler design and combustion technology on your terms. Respectfully, if you want to sell boilers to this crowd, it's the other way around.


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## steam man (Feb 7, 2009)

I've had some throbbing pain reading most of this thread but Paul could help that if he would post all the data he's collected on all the boilers he has tested along with his so we can see how it compares. Yeah right. 

Mike


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## sparke (Feb 7, 2009)

Cheap wood heat,  

I am far from slinging mud. I simply asked for information and made a suggestion.  Why do my credentials matter?  I am the prospective buyer.  You are the seller.  You are the one who needs to prove your credentials.    If your boiler does what you say it does, I want to invest in your company!!  You are still dancing around the questions.  You are also losing your audience as most folks think you are not going to answer their specific questions.  As far as the folks and knowledge on this web-site is concerned - Many folks here including professionals and DIY types take time to help other people in need of knowledge.  Not asking for anything in return except maybe a written Thank You!  I am not attacking you or your business in any way.  I give you credit for jumping in this thread when the majority of posts towards your product are negative.  People are expressing how they feel about your product.  You took the time to post, so I assume you do care what people here think about your product.  Instead of "throwing mud"  lets start over.  I have 2 questions:  

I want to know how your unit achieve efficiencies better then other outdoor units using a forced draft.  

You say it is proper air to mass ratio.  How does the unit know what is the proper ratio and how does it adjust these ratios?

I am truly interested.  I have friends that build their own boilers from scratch.  Even though I have a great boiler,  I want to build one from scratch.   I want to burn less wood. I want the satisfaction of having a highly efficient unit that I built with my own hands.   So I will always be looking for ways to achieve better efficiency.  If you have a way to help me in my quest I want to hear about it!  Right now I am set on building a Garn style boiler.  At the end of the day it is about burning the least amount of wood and reducing our carbon foot print that matters.


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## sparke (Feb 7, 2009)

My post was being written at the same time as Eric's.  He must of hit the submit button before me!   Sorry for the redundancy ...


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## Eric Johnson (Feb 8, 2009)

Not to belabor the point, but I have trouble believing this after looking at pic of the boiler on the website (http://www.lilpowerhouse.com/):



			
				Cheap wood heat said:
			
		

> The max btu's per hour rating is 500,000 btu's per hour!!



And this is a new one on me as well:


			
				Cheap wood heat said:
			
		

> The firebox and water jacket is built from 16 ga. cold rolled steel !! And this is a must to transfer the heat from the firebox to the water as fast as possible !!The heavier the steel used the poorer the transfer and the more heat that goes out the chimney!!



This is what I mean about old-school boiler sales hype.


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## Donl (Feb 8, 2009)

What got me is having sold 7500 outdoor boilers. That works out to  selling at least one boiler every other day for the past 30 years.  Not impossible I guess ,but I have my doubts.


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## kenny chaos (Feb 8, 2009)

Paul-
I tried Paul.  I really, really tried.  You leave me to make only one conclusion.

I had a couple e-mail chats with Roger at http://www.fluemiser.com/ and he is also his own referance.


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## Ugly (Feb 8, 2009)

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> Not to belabor the point, but I have trouble believing this after looking at pic of the boiler on the website (http://www.lilpowerhouse.com/):
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I get 200 mpg per gallon on biodiesel on my 3/4 Dodge . Wait a minute, sanity check;

A decent lab predicts 6930 Btu/pound of 2 year old seasoned hardwood. 500,000 Btu/hr equates to 72 pounds of wood per hour at *100%* effciency (not possible to achieve).

Since seasoned hardwood is normally 20 per cent water you lose 210 BTU per pound right off the top just to boil out the water vapour. (1050 Btu per pound water to boil it assuming no heat loss).

I'm not going any further with the math, I'm going to let the numbers speak for themselves. For the sticklers, softwoods differ by 5% more energy per pound at equivelant moisture content.

Don't take my word for the numbers, check the lab results and online publications from researchers for the amount of energy in wood yourself.

I love the taste of snake oil in the morning.

Regards,
Ugly


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## Cheap wood heat (Feb 12, 2009)

Hi Guys
Sorry I work night and day so not much time to post !!
SO let me tell you how it works!!
First start with dry cured wood normal cured wood will be 17% moisture or less!!
Now my fire box size is 22"x24"x27"  or a total of 8.25 cubic feet a cord of wood is 128 cubic feet  if you devide 128 by 8.25 you get  15.5 loads of wood per cord in my furnace!!
Now if you go to the  Utah university  forestry extension web site you will find white oak @ 29.1 million btu's per cord  but I use 28 million as this is not 100% dry wood!!
28 million btu's  devided by 15.5 loades per cord you get 1,806,451.6 btu's per load devide this by 70%  even though we achive up to 80% on this model when burning cured oak but poorer quallity woods will be less efficient!!
1,800,451.6 x 70% = 1,264,516.1  Btu's of usable heat per load 
This equates to 
1 At a 50,000 btu per hr draw on the furnace you will get a 25.29 hr burn time 
2 At a 100,000 btu per hr draw = 12.64 hr burn time 
3 At a 250,000 btu per hr draw = 5.05 hr burn time
4 At a 500,000 btu per hr draw =  2.52 hr burn time 

When we hit 500,000 btu's per hour we tipically run  wide open no longer able to shut down!!
Now with only 25 gallons of liquid we are able to get from 30 deg liquid to 150  deg in 30 min from a fresh  firing with no coal bed  so we must have dry wood !
In about 40 mins we are up to 180 deg and shut off if no heat demand on furnace!!
This is our poorest firing as we have no 1100 deg coal bed to use 
We have now transfered 31,125 btus into the water jacket (This equation is 180 deg - 30 deg = 150 degx25 gallons x8.3#s per gallon for 31125 btu's)
From this point on we will only transfer the heat needed as the demand applies!
We have now started our coal bed and will use this to reignight as well as reburn the gasses once all moisture has been released from wood! (wet wood will not burn in excess of 212 deg till all moisture is dried from it in a non-pressurized vessle!)
Now when we fire with a coal bed we use the 1100 deg coal bed and force our air in under the coal bed from 6 different ports accross the full bed to enhance the thempeture above 1100 deg in the air space of the fire box!! once we hit 850 deg air temp in the fire box we start to spontanisly combust the gases the hotter we get the temp the better they will combust! the gases are what really produce the heat and if you just think of how hot hydrogen burns  you can now see how we get temps in excess of 2000 deg in our burn box .
If we burn at 2000+ degrees we can achive stack temps of 500 deg and loose some effiency! but most of our units are not burn't at max temp as we bank furnaces together for larger demands like green houses  and such!
All our intake air is pre heated and a solenoid opens the dampener and starts the fan at a 5 deg differencial.
We start our air out at 7.56 sq inches and by the time we hit the maniford we have increased this to 16 sq inches this device along with our fan is what we call our turbosized draft as we needed to create the turbulance to get  proper combustion! Now you  have to disperse this air accros the coal bed so you dont just blast a hole in the coal bed or it will not work this is where the 6 port manifold comes in!
Now we have achived our 2000 deg fire box temp but if we use 1/4 " steel to transfer through we can not trap the heat fast enough b4 it leaves the fire box so we use 16 ga steel to transfer which is 4 times as fast transfer rate. ( manufatures of odwb's have gone to heavy steel units because of deteriation/corrosion caused by the high volume of water when burning high moisture green wood) We also use 100% nontoxic boiler antifreeze in all our units for the best corrosion protection of the water jacket!
We burn dry cured wood so we don't see the corrosion but just fill ours with green wood and see what happens! Thats right not good!
Dry wood used wind and solar energy to dry the moisture out of it where green wood uses 1/2 the energy in it to dry the wood! green wood takes twice as much wood !
The gases have 1/3 of the energy in them so don't burn the gas and loose 1/3 more
You do the math
Hope this helps as starters this is not simple but its not rocket science either!
Now I would like to ask someone out there to work with me on large volume of liquid vs. small volume!
What I need is some one to give me there firebox dementions as well as thier gallons of onboard liquid so we have somthing to compare!
As you can see I have listed mine so I have given a starting point to all of you!
We also have New prototypes we are building for the new EPA rules and they put this unit to shame but do cost more,we won't be putting this product to market till we feel it is as maintane free as we can build as many people buying are not into the high maintance thing!
Thank
Paul


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## sdrobertson (Feb 12, 2009)

Wow - I'm not sure I'm reading this right but...On your facts page you suggest under Drying Wood that the "fuel wood be dried for three months to two years." There is no way you can get wood to 17% moisture or less in 3 months much less than a year. Please explain to me how you use the turbosized draft to create the turbulence to disperse this air across the coal bed from under the coal bed. If it goes up through the coal bed then when and where do you introduce the air to the wood gas to ignite it? Without a way to separate the fire from the water, how can it burn so hot? Every other boiler in the world uses some sort of way to separate the fire from the water and then a heat exchanger to move the heat from the exhaust to the water. Your boiler looks nice and clean on the outside, but I guess I need a drawing to show the insides so I can understand how your achieving this remarkable 2000 degree temps. 
As far as 25 gallons of fluid, it seems that your boiler would be running almost all the time to keep a house up to temp when its fairly cold out. Maybe this is how the boiler burns clean as it is always forcing air to the fire and never shuts down, but this would kill any burn time.


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## Duetech (Feb 12, 2009)

Cheap wood heat/Paul,

"What I need is some one to give me there firebox dimensions as well as their gallons of on board liquid so we have something to compare!"

As per your request for comparative analysis. This link (cozyheat.net) will take you to a download for the manual for the EKO product line for further product comparison.. 

Now for my operational comparison. My EKO40 has a water capacity of 24.5 gallons (that is treated to prevent corrosion but does not have anti-freeze in it), plus plumbing capacity, according to the manual. In my current setup I do not use storage so I have short cycle gasification and idle periods, much the same as you reference for your burn cycle scenario, and get an approximate burn time to your 100,000 btu rating (12 hours with red oak and red elm. . However you do not state your heat load or the weather conditions) listed for the Lil' Powerhouse Boiler (LPH) but with a smaller hopper capacity. The maximum wood capacity of the EKO40 is around 6.5 cu.ft. or about 26% less capacity than the 8.25 cu.ft. of the Lil' Powerhouse Boiler. Also I usually have a burn in progress 24-7 so I make use of an existing coal bed. With your LPH capacity on my boiler that would equate t a 15 hour burn time. To be specific the 12 hours of operation in cold weather are for ambient temperatures around 20-30*f with little or no wind and using red oak which is lower on the btu chart than white oak. The EKO40 uses steel pipes for heat transfer tubes extracting the heat from the exhaust gasses and the walls of the pipes look to easily be twice, and more, the thickness of the 16ga that you reference for the LPH. In comparison, at this juncture, it appears the EKO is more efficient and is structurally more sound than the LPH. The 16 ga seems fragile and more prone to stress failure if exposed to the wide spectrum of burning scenarios that many boilers are expected to endure. I don't really know but it sounds as though your unit is housed in a heated structure (??) while mine is in an unheated structure and unquestionably that has an effect on thermal output efficiency. Are the air settings for flame, air and combustible gasses adjustable with the LPH like they are with the EKO? The reason I ask is not everyone has white oak at their disposal and different woods burn differently and with non adjustable air/gas fixtures thermal efficiency will decrease in regards to boiler comparisons and types of wood burned. With my system I use a water/air heat exchanger in my oil furnace plenum and run a dhw sidearm heat exchanger so there is always a thermal degradation of my 24-7 water flow of water leaving and returning to the boiler. Are your pumps static dependent on heat demand? What type of water heat transfer method are you using? Water/air, radiant, baseboard? All of these heat loads will effect the way a boiler operates if there is no storage so the comparison you ask for must be qualified for accurate analysis.
The actual dimensions of the primary chamber for my 40 are (front to back length) 21" x 17" wide x 33" deep but the bottom of the primary is in a V or U shape so the 33" is at the center and at the top of the nozzle. On the sides where the taper starts it is only about 27". When first purchased it was described as a 49 gallon capacity firebox (231 cu.in per gallon x 49 gal.= 11319 cu.in divide by 1728 cu. in. per cu.ft=6.55 cu.ft. primary combustion chamber) so that averages out to be about 31.7 inches for depth. One further question on the 16 ga firebox on the LPH...Since the standard for boilers is 1/4' boiler plate is the LPH a non pressurized or atmospheric pressure boiler then?


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## Eric Johnson (Feb 12, 2009)

If it's true that 16 ga. steel improves heat transfer from the firebox into the water jacket, why do you use the same 16 ga. steel for the pressure vessel? Seems to me it would transfer heat more quickly from the water into the boiler insulation and the boiler room which the opposite of what you should be trying to do.


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## steam man (Feb 12, 2009)

Cheap Wood Heat-the one main problem I see with your math excercise is that you assume the firebox is 100% filled with wood (and no space for air?)! Please correct me if I am wrong if you're talking "useable firebox" dimensions! However, if I am correct I would think on average the firebox would probably be no more than 1/2 filled! If that's the case then you would have to cut the burn times or outputs in half based on that alone! I am also skeptical of the claim about the efficiency! You state you can do 50,000btu/hr up to 500,000 btu/hr! This is like a 10:1 turndown ratio in which I believe the best modulating NG boilers on the market don't do with their sophisticated controls! And you do it with a basic damper control based on boiler temp alone! With all your claims about thinner steel and heat transfer you do realize that using antifreeze also cuts down on heat transfer? I didn't see any math numbers accounting for that! Let's get to the point: you need to show us some real life test results performed preferably an independent third party agency! Do you have that? I also haven't seen mention of stack temperatures! They must be remarkably low! If your boiler does what you say then more Lilpower to you!

Mike

That punctuation disease is contagious! That's what I get for posting on this thread!


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## kenny chaos (Feb 12, 2009)

All I want is some stinking referances.
That'll be my independent study.


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## Cheap wood heat (Feb 12, 2009)

Eric Johnson
Hi I will start with you as it is short and simple!!
Reason
 #1 less espensive
#2 small surface area compared to large water capacity units so such a minimal thing to begin with
#3 boiler sits outside no boiler room needed
#4insulation is used to keep heat in water jacket  so why use 4 times the steel instead of insulating properly?
AND JUST REMEMBER I NEVER SAID I HAVE BUILT THE PERFECT FURNACE  JUST A VERY COST EFFECTIVE ONE!


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## Eric Johnson (Feb 12, 2009)

Actually, you're trying to have it both ways. You offer an inexpensive boiler but make unrealistic efficiency claims. It can't be both cheaper and more efficient than anything else on the market.


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## Cheap wood heat (Feb 12, 2009)

OK STEAM MAN THIS IS FOR YOU!
#1 THE FIRE BOX IS ALWAYS FILLED 100% WHEN FILLING CAN'T SEEM TO SEE WHY YOU WOULD LOAD A FURNACE ONLY HALF FULL DIDN'T YOUR DADDY TEACH YOU TO DO THE JOB RIGHT?
#2THE FURNACE WILL DO 500,000 BTU'S THIS IS THE AAMOUNT YOU CAN DRAW OFF IT STEADY IF YOU DRAW LESS THE FURNACE JUST STAYS IN THE IDLE MODE LONGER!
#3 I DID GIVE MAX STACK TEMP ON 500,000 BTU DEMANDS WHICH IS WORST CASE SENARIO!
#4 3RD PARTY TEST RESULTS, WHO HAD INDEPENDENT TEST RESULTS B4 THE EPA STEPPED IN? SO TILL OUR NEW MODEL GOES FOR EPA TESTING DON'T HOLD YOUR BREATH ,AND AS FAR AS TEST RESULTS GO READ WHAT THE ODWB PEOPLE USE TO SAY AND SEE WHAT THEY SAY ABOUT THIER NEW EPA UNITS #'S DON'T ADD UP BUT WHAT YOU WILL SEE IS YOU NEED TO BURN DRY WOOD TO GET THESE KIND OF RESULTS!
#5YOUR NG BOILER IS OF NO COMPARISON AS YOU DON'T FILL IT WITH THE DAYS FUEL AND WALK AWAY AND STILL COME HOME TO A HOUSE!
#6 YES ANTIFREEZE EXCHANGES AT A DIFFERENT RATE BUT THIS IS BOTH IN AND OUT SO IT IS SO CAMPARABLE TO WATER IF YOU STUDY IT!


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## Cheap wood heat (Feb 12, 2009)

ERIC JOHNSON WHY CAN'T IT BE??
THE FORD FOCUS CANT GET GREAT GAS MILEAGE BECAUSE ITS CHEAP??


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## Cheap wood heat (Feb 12, 2009)

WHO OUT THERE HAS A BTU METER HOOKED TO THERE FURNACE??
I DO AND I BUILT IT WITH THE HELP OF SOME VERY TOP NOTHCH ELECTRONIC PEOPLE AND PROGRAMMERS!
THIS WILL BE AVAIABLE ON ALL OUR  EPA MODELS AS WELL AS RETROFITABLE TO ALL OLD UNITS
WE KNOW WHAT ARE FURNACE IS DOING AT ANY GIVEN MOMENT DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOURS IS DOING??


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## Cheap wood heat (Feb 12, 2009)

SDROBERTSON
HOW CAN YOU MAKE STATEMENTS ABOUT MY FURNACE IF YOU DON'T EVEN UNDERSTAND HOW TO DRY WOOD!
I CAN DRY WOOD IN 24 HRS TO BELOW 17%  JUST NEED TO SPLIT IT DOWN TO KINDLING SIZE AND KEEP IT IN A LOW HUMIDITY HIGH TEMP AREA WITH AIR BLOWING ACCROSS IT  BUT SURLEY NOT A BIG ROUND CHUNK!
WHEN YOU UNDERSTAND THIS PLEASE MAKE YOUR STATEMENTS AGAIN WITH A LITTLE MORE THOUGHT!
aND AS FAR AS THE BOILER PLATE THING DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT BOILER PLATE IS??IT IS A ROLLED PIECE OF ANY TYPE OF STEEL AND THIS TERM IS AN OLD ONE FROM WHEN WAY BACK WHEN ROLLED STEEL WAS THE TYPICAL FOR STEAM BOILERS ! NO SUCH THING IN THE FLAT OR SQ. FURNACES JUST SOMTHING THE PEOPLE WHO BUILD WITH ROLLED STEEL USE !THIS IS NOT A GRADE OF STEEL! CALL US STEEL AND TRY BUY THIS AND GET THE ASTM# FOR THAT HE HE!!


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## Cheap wood heat (Feb 12, 2009)

CAVE2K
LOOKING FOR SOME ONE WHO IS TRYING TO STORE THERE HEAT IN A LARGE VOLUME OF WATER SO WHAT YOU HAVE WON'T HELP TO EXPLAIN WHY WE USE ONLY 25 GALLONS BUT THANKS FOR THE HIT!
ALSO WE DO SIT OUTSIDE NOT IN A BUILDING!
AS FAR AS LITER STEEL BEING MORE PRONE TO STRESS FAILER YOU ARE WRONG IT IS JUST THE OTHER WAY AROUND THICK STEEL HAS MORE STRESS AS IT CAN NOT EXPAND AND CONTRACT AS EASY AS LIGHT STEEL !
THIS IS WHAT MADE THE ASHLEY INDOOR STOVE SUCH A GREAT LONG LASTING FURNACE!


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## Eric Johnson (Feb 12, 2009)

Cheap wood heat said:
			
		

> ERIC JOHNSON WHY CAN'T IT BE??
> THE FORD FOCUS CANT GET GREAT GAS MILEAGE BECAUSE ITS CHEAP??



Because you're not Ford Motor Co.?

The reason you can't have it both ways is because your design is inherently less efficient than all gasifiers and probably most conventional wood-fired boilers on the market today. 

I want to see a cutaway drawing of your design. You're making all these fantastic claims and not backing it up with anything that we can analyze and ask questions about.

And please tone down the ALL CAPS. No need to shout.


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## Cheap wood heat (Feb 12, 2009)

ERIC JOHNSON
SEEMS YOU DON'T HAVE MUCH EXPERIENCE IN THIS INDUSTRY 
ALSO SEEMS LIKE MOST PEOPLE ON HERE ALREADY HAVE A UNIT AND ARE NOT LOOKING TO BUY JUST TRYING TO JUSTIFY THIER CONCOCKTED BUILD!
IF THIS SITE IS FOR BUYERS THEN WHERE DO ALL THESE SILLY QUESTIONS COME FROM?/
DOSEN'T LOOK LIKE YOU HAVE A BTU METER RUNNING EITHER SO HOW DO YOU CALCULATE YOU UNIT??
YOU SEE EVERYONE WANTS TO MAKE STATEMENTS ABOUT HOW EVERYONE ELSE IS WRONG BUT NO BIG ANSWERS WHY THEY ARE RIGHT ?
SEEMS LIKE THE SAME THING AS OUR LAST ADMINISTRATION DID TO THE PEOPLE AND SEE WHERE WE ARE NOW!
GO TO WEBSTER DICTIONARY AS SEE WHAT GASIFICATION IS ! IT IS (CONVERSION INTO GAS ) WOW SEEMS WEIRD THAT IT SAYS NOTHING ABOUT D/D OR ANY OF YOU OTHER MISBELEIFS!
THIS SITE SEEMS TO BE FOR THE PEOPLE WHO THINK THEY KNOW WHAT IS RIGHT AND SPREAD SILLY THOUGHT TO THOSE LOOKING FOR GOOD UNDERSTANDING AND I HAVE YET TO SEE ANY POST THAT WOULD HAVE RELEVANCE IF I WERE LOOKING TO PURCHASE!


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## Cheap wood heat (Feb 12, 2009)

ERIC JOHNSON WHO ARE YOU THEN TO MAKE CLAIMS THAT ONLY FORD CAN BUILD EFFICIENT AND CHEAP AND NO ONE ELSE CAN??
MUST HAVE A DEGREE!


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## Eric Johnson (Feb 12, 2009)

How about that diagram, Paul?


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## stee6043 (Feb 12, 2009)

I was actually going to buy an Englander add-on furance from The Home Depot before I found this website.  So I say "absolutely" this site is for buyers.

This thread is classic, by the way.  A truley entertaining read...


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## kenny chaos (Feb 12, 2009)

A few user names and numbers?
PM me if not for publication.


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## Cheap wood heat (Feb 12, 2009)

SO IF YOU THINK A PICTURE WILL PROVE SOMTHING YOUR PRETY SIMPLE AND SHOULD NOT BE GIVING ADVICE OUT HERE!
HOW ABOUT COMING TO SEE ME AND WE WILL JUST WATCH THE FURNACE AND USE THE EQUIPMENT NEEDED TO TEST ANY BOILER FOR A REAL ANSWER!
WOULD BE HAPPY TO PROVE IT TO YOU SO YOUR ANSWERS HERE WILL BE OH HELP TO BUYERS!
sHOW ME 1 PICTURE THAT YOU HAVE THAT PROVES THE EFFICIENCY OF A FURNACE AND PICTURE AND I WILL GET YOU A PIC OF MINE BUT AS PICS ARE JUST USED FOR A SIMPLE SELLING TOOL THEY HAVE VERY LITTLE USEFULNES IN FIGUARING OUT HOW EFFECIENT IT WILL WORK! WHAT I SEE IS ALOT OF PEOPLE ASKING FOR INFO SO THEY CAN COPY THINGS !
ALL AND LET ME SAY THAT AGAIN ALL BTU'S ARE CALCULATED BY EQUATION NOT PICTURES ! MANY OF THE PEOPLE HERE SEEM TO THINK YOU JUST MAKE THINGS UP AND IT BECOMES FACT!
LETS BUILD A BTU AND EFFICIENCY EQUATION ON THIS SITE SO WE CAN PLUG IN SOME INFO AND SEE SOME STARTING POINTS FOR THE REAL BUYERS INSTEAD OF JUST CONFUSING THEM WITH THE BRAIN STORMS OF A FEW!
DOES EPA ASK FOR A DIAGRAM FOR CERTIFICATION OR DO THEY USE TEST RESULTS AN EQUATION TO CONCLUDE ITS EFFICINCY AND PARTICULATES!


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## Ugly (Feb 12, 2009)

I'm looking to replace two existing units with out of the box solutions at the large store we have. I'm shopping. The one Empyre at the large building is fine for the moment, but it's a bit of a beast and can eat a full cord a day in the cold weather. I'm also going to build one.  Basically I'm a buyer - One who does his research - because burning wood is a science, not an art.


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## Cheap wood heat (Feb 12, 2009)

Hey Ugly
would love to discuss this with you but may be easiest if you call me so I can get your specifics so I give you real answers!
320-632-5254


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## steam man (Feb 12, 2009)

Cheap Wood Heat-I really appreciate your tenacity in defending your position. That's OK, stay tough. As a manufacturer of OWB you surely must be aware of the problems associated with them and why they are being regulated. You, as a manufacturer, are obligated to show why your boiler does what it does to meet expectations and regulated emissions. I find it hard to believe your current boiler is as great as you say but yet you have to manufacture a new model to meet new EPA guidelines. It would seem your current one would be just fine. That makes me question your claims. I have been involved with boilers for almost 4 decades if you count I helped my dad install his wood boiler in 1972. He had a solid fuel license and was responsible for pioneering the effort to install many wood boilers in my hometown and believe me, I learned enough to make industrial boilers my life long career. I like this forum because I learn something new all the time and help contribute when I can. Treat this forum like a peer review and not basic consumers. There is a lot of high level expertise here and your up against a tough crowd. If this helps you I posted below how boiler efficiency is MEASURED and calculated. This is a must to do before any claims can be made. 

measure air flow through firebox. 
measure air temp in & out 
measure water temp in & out 
measure water flow 
calculate btu’s to raise air temp 
calculate btu’s output to water 
air BTU + water flow BTU = total BTU’s 
water flow BTU’s divided by total BTU’s = efficiency 
Temperature drop x GPM x 8.33 x 60 = BTU/hour 

Mike


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## Eric Johnson (Feb 12, 2009)

I'm getting pretty sick of being insulted by you, Paul, every time we try to get close to what actually makes your boiler work and why it's supposedly superior to everything else on the market. Now I have to travel out to Minnesota to see it firsthand if I want any useful information. You refuse to supply references, drawings--anything useful. Just a lot of blah, blah, blah, nonsense that only you understand.

Apparently everybody is an idiot but you. Good luck with that sales approach, pal.


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## Sting (Feb 12, 2009)

Its a calling to be the whipping boy in these "discovery" threads

Thank-you Eric for the sacrifice of time and endurance it takes to pull for the answers

Great read 

Kind Regards
Sting


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## sparke (Feb 12, 2009)

This certainly is an entertaining read.  BUT we are not getting anywhere.  Paul obviously believes in his product and that is fine.  BUT the dialog is going to get nasty soon.
 Can we all take a breath and start over?  

Paul are you here to convince us of your products efficiency?  If so we to figure out a way to communicate so this conversation can get more civilized!!


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## sdrobertson (Feb 12, 2009)

Cheap wood heat said:
			
		

> SDROBERTSON
> HOW CAN YOU MAKE STATEMENTS ABOUT MY FURNACE IF YOU DON'T EVEN UNDERSTAND HOW TO DRY WOOD!
> I CAN DRY WOOD IN 24 HRS TO BELOW 17%  JUST NEED TO SPLIT IT DOWN TO KINDLING SIZE AND KEEP IT IN A LOW HUMIDITY HIGH TEMP AREA WITH AIR BLOWING ACCROSS IT  BUT SURLEY NOT A BIG ROUND CHUNK!
> WHEN YOU UNDERSTAND THIS PLEASE MAKE YOUR STATEMENTS AGAIN WITH A LITTLE MORE THOUGHT!
> aND AS FAR AS THE BOILER PLATE THING DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT BOILER PLATE IS??IT IS A ROLLED PIECE OF ANY TYPE OF STEEL AND THIS TERM IS AN OLD ONE FROM WHEN WAY BACK WHEN ROLLED STEEL WAS THE TYPICAL FOR STEAM BOILERS ! NO SUCH THING IN THE FLAT OR SQ. FURNACES JUST SOMTHING THE PEOPLE WHO BUILD WITH ROLLED STEEL USE !THIS IS NOT A GRADE OF STEEL! CALL US STEEL AND TRY BUY THIS AND GET THE ASTM# FOR THAT HE HE!!




Ok, Ok, I've read the whole post again along with your facts page from your website...You win as I don't know what I'm talking about-could you let me know of a unit installed in Western Michigan so I could look at it and then maybe recommend it to all of my friends?  Even a video like was suggested earlier would help educate myself so I don't make a mistake on what I would recommend in a solid fuel boiler to several of my closest friends who are looking into wood heat.


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## Duetech (Feb 12, 2009)

Cheap wood heat said:
			
		

> CAVE2K
> LOOKING FOR SOME ONE WHO IS TRYING TO STORE THERE HEAT IN A LARGE VOLUME OF WATER SO WHAT YOU HAVE WON'T HELP TO EXPLAIN WHY WE USE ONLY 25 GALLONS BUT THANKS FOR THE HIT!
> ALSO WE DO SIT OUTSIDE NOT IN A BUILDING!
> AS FAR AS LITER STEEL BEING MORE PRONE TO STRESS FAILER YOU ARE WRONG IT IS JUST THE OTHER WAY AROUND THICK STEEL HAS MORE STRESS AS IT CAN NOT EXPAND AND CONTRACT AS EASY AS LIGHT STEEL !
> THIS IS WHAT MADE THE ASHLEY INDOOR STOVE SUCH A GREAT LONG LASTING FURNACE!



Hi Paul,
Storage is in the planning stages here. My EKO cannot do the thermal swing that you are saying the LPH can. From what I have gathered from those that have storage there is always an extended burn needed to get storage up to par. What time frame are we talking to get 1200 gallons of water from 100*f to 180*f with the LPH when there is no other heat load involved? If I am understanding your description of the heating process for the LPH then basically the LPH is a 500k btu output boiler that is only limited by the heat demand and the controls on the boiler?


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## stee6043 (Feb 12, 2009)

sdrobertson said:
			
		

> Cheap wood heat said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



SD, if you get a lead on a West Mich install I will offer to go along.  I'll bring the camera....


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## sdrobertson (Feb 12, 2009)

Picture of unit burning off Ebay.  Now we can see the door and the exhaust out the side of the unit.


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## Fred61 (Feb 12, 2009)

Hey Cheap,

I think the posting page has spell-check!!


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## kenny chaos (Feb 12, 2009)

I did get a PM that I had referances coming this afternoon.


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## Duetech (Feb 12, 2009)

Just in case anyone is wondering about the 4" chimney??? With forced draft 4" is large enough to run an EKO40 and is actually .18 times larger. Standard thermal draft is another thing. But the 4" is viable with forced draft.


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## brad068 (Feb 13, 2009)

Guys I had to chime back in. This is just too good to sit idle

Paul you are a piece of work. I think in your mind you could sell ice to an Eskimo.

Paul, by the looks of the pic above and the importance of the 16 ga steel, I'm wondering why didn't you just go and pick up old used refrigerators and turn them into your boilers? Seems to me that would save you alot of work. 16 ga, your right it probably won't stress crack because it will warp up like an old ash pan!

Paul, my boiler has 1300 gals of stored water. It has a 3/4 hp 3450 motor which runs the blower wheel to create the induce draft. It moves 350 to 400cfms and combustion air is anywhere from -40*F to 100*F. The exhaust runs anywhere for 200* to 260*F throughout the burn which is usually 3 hrs. 

The best temp rise I ever got is 50*F/hr. 120 to 170. Forget about the air btu, forget about the gpms,(circs are off) and the calc. btu per hour in my unit is???????.....

And this was a load of about 100 lbs of oak. Remember the total burn was 3hrs and my best hr rise was 50*F


PAUL, THE REASON US FOLKS USE STORAGE IS THE FACT THAT THE COMBUSTION IS SO MUCH MORE EFFICIENT!

ok, I'm done shouting. Did you ever have a science teacher show you an experiment with burning wood? 

The teacher first tries to light a 2x4. Then tries wood chips. Then tries sawdust. What do you thinks happens when the teacher, (using the same ignitor for all three) lights the sawdust?

My point is, is that when you burn fuel in smaller "chunks" is that you can use the cycling method more. When you are burning large chunks of wood (12" piece of oak 2' long split 4 ways) once you get it burning the best and most fuel efficient way to combust that piece is to let it burn all full out. By doing this you keep the combustion in very high temps which inturn fully combusts all the available gases. 
Which brings me to the absolute necessity of refractory in a secondary chamber. The refractories benefit is to keep the combustion air in an extremely high temp environment which can only take place if the hot gases are separated from the water jacket which will quench the gases if they come in contact. Thats why owb are infamous for the thick slimey creosote sticking to the firebox walls.
Paul, have you ever tried to torch through a piece of well pipe with water on the backside? Or try to solder a joint with water in it? Same principle as a owb without refractory or a refractory lined secondary chamber.

Oh, my calculated btu/hr for a 50*F rise is 542K dumped into storage.


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## kenny chaos (Feb 13, 2009)

Garnification said:
			
		

> Guys I had to chime back in. This is just too good to sit idle
> 
> Paul you are a piece of work. I think in your mind you could sell ice to an Eskimo.
> 
> ...




Yeah- take that *******.  I checked your references and cannot believe you would give me those.  Lucky for you there are suckers born every minute.
I get these really stupid phone calls everyday warning me it's my last chance to get another warranty for my car, or to federally refinance my house.  They never stop.  It tells me that there's lots of easy fish to catch.  
Can we end this thread?  
The joke is on us.


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## Eric Johnson (Feb 13, 2009)

Calm down, Kenny.

What did you find?


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## Cheap wood heat (Feb 13, 2009)

Hey garnification
I have $1000.00 that says you can not warp my 16 ga firebox when operated properly!!
I do say your #s are very possible but  as the oak you fired with only had about 692.857 btu's so not sure how the burn took 3 hrs! #'s come from utah state forestry extension 
29.1 million btus per cord  with a weight of 4200#s per cord 
burn 100#s 4200 devided by 100#s = 42 loads per cord
29.1 million btus devided by 42 = 692,857 btus per load 
took 500,000 off in 1 hr and only 192857 for other 2 hrs  and at a air volume of 350 to 400 cfms seems we did a lot of cooling in the other 2 hrs !!
I did give this 100% efficiency for these #'s as well as 100% dry wood as is stated in utah specs !
Now this is just my calculations not any facts but maybe you can tell me more of the burn process  other wise I see alot of excess air !
I do not say you are wrong I do not say what you have is junk I say we can all figuar the equation if we talk about it!
I'm not here to put anyone elses product down  just to tell you what I can achieve!
Now we do split our wood smaller so that it will cure faster , the size you suggest I would say more than 1 year in most area's to cure!
you did not give moister content so I take it to be 17% moisture wood ! 
The owb has slimy creasote on the walls because they burn high moisture wood burn dry wood it will go away!!
Most owb are not well suited to burn dry wood as they run to high of a heat load and would charcoal up and ash over and smother the coal bed out! Not all of coarse but most!
Now if you feel i'm off base tell me why !
Happy to talk and thanks for keeping it real!


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## Cheap wood heat (Feb 13, 2009)

Fred61 
 I hear what you say but can't seem to find it will you guide me to it!
Thanks


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## Cheap wood heat (Feb 13, 2009)

Hey Kenny chaos
Yep so I worked in shop all day just back in to respond and do some office work we are a small company and I do  Sales ,buying ,r&d;testing ,ect.ect.
Can't just sit here all day on computer! Said I would get you refs yet today but now you slam me and make false statements because I have not gotten this to you yet !
You asked for someone in your area and I need the time to search data base for someone who is ok with me giving out the phone# 
A couple years ago I gave out a customers # and within 6 months he had so many calls from his # being passed around he  had to change his # as his phone rang night and day and it was his personal# with many family members in house so I always verify with customer and get permission b4 sending out if you were my customer I think you would ask I did the same for you! 
Now if I just paid you who cares but then you would say whatever I asked because you were making money! my customers spent thier money and now own a furnace and life is good give them 25 calls every evening about it and seems it's no longer such a good deal!!


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## Fred61 (Feb 13, 2009)

Cheap wood heat said:
			
		

> Fred61
> I hear what you say but can't seem to find it will you guide me to it!
> Thanks



Just below the box you are typing in there is a row that says "Check Spelling." Click that.


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## Cheap wood heat (Feb 13, 2009)

Thanks for the reply fred but it's not on my page 
Just the submit post link
As you can see I sure could use it! But have search and can't seem to find it .
Maybe in the way I log in? Help from anyone would be great!
Thanks again Fred


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## Sting (Feb 13, 2009)

You have to use the POST REPLY tab not the Fast Reply

Drill on Please!


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## leaddog (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm not sure I want to jump in here but I just don't under stand a couple of things. 
If you are reaching 2000* in your burn chamber and your exaust is out the side you must be transfering the heat to the water in the burn chamber. If that is right then what keeps the walls from cooling down the fire down. That is what almost all the OWB do and that is why they can't keep the fire hot enough to burn up all the gasses. And if there isn't any other path for the exaust except from the burn chamber if you have a stack temp under 400* then the temp of the exaust leaving the burn chamber must be 400* and that means you aren't high enough to get full burn. Now if your temp leaving the burn chamber is 2000* then your exaust will be close to that. You won't get any build up but you will make rain from that snow falling right above the stack thats for sure. It sure would be interesting to watch flies fly over that stack.
By the way just for info here for someone that didn't relize, 16 guage is .0508 which is less than 1/16 thick. Be very carefull how you put wood in. If you ring the bell it might be a splashing sound. I always wondered what 500,000btu would do at 2000* to 1/16in steel. Better be sure and not have a pump fail or the power go out. I think that 500,000btus would boil out that little bit of water in a hurry  and gobs of red hot 16ga steel wouldn't be a pretty pic that's for sure.
I have heard of people over heating eko's enough to slightly warp the return fitting but I'm not sure if any thing would be left with a pump failure here.
Just my take
leaddog


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## kenny chaos (Feb 13, 2009)

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> Calm down, Kenny.
> 
> What did you find?




I found that by playing the "good cop" card and prevaricating to be truly interested in Paul's product,
I was repeatedly ignored for the most basic of questions.
Following too numerous requests, a false attempt was finally made to pacify me, "I'll get it to you this afternoon."
Read for yourselves, when drawn out on this put-off, Paul's excuse was that he was too busy.
Techies have determined a less than efficient boiler.
HR has determined less than efficient business accumen.
I believe we have answered the OP's question.
This was a fun ride but now it's time to move on.
Ken


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## brad068 (Feb 13, 2009)

Excellent post leadog. 

Paul, I did forget that when I had drier wood with that burn scenario that I did set my timer for alittle over 2hrs. I'm use to what I'm setting my timer at now for the past month and a half seeing I have alot wetter wood.

Paul do you yet understand why we use storage? 
When I burn a load I will never use all the btus generated by that one 2-3hr burn in that 2-3 hr time frame. I got to keep the fire burning full out to keep the combustion temps up so I need to dump the excess heat somewhere. And yes, I will lose a very,very little heat due to storing and circulating but I more than make up the difference in the complete and total combustion of that load of wood.

When owbs cycle and have no refractory they loose alot up the chimney. That alot is completely burned in my boiler getting all the usable heat out of every ounce of wood. And the only way to due that is a constant full burn cycle.

Moisture content does have something to due with slimey creosote but the majority of the slime is because the aromatic hydrocarbons cool and condense on the walls of the boiler water jacket. The boilers that don't have as much creosote are the ones that also run stack temps 900*f and above. Theres alot of usable btus in a 900*F+ stack temp. Mine runs about 240 and that with 2000*F+ in the secondary chamber

I am having trouble believing that your boiler, when cranking out 400K-500K only has a stack temp @500*F with 25 gals of water.

Another great addition of the garn system is that when there is a power failure at a full burn nothing happens( as long as you don't open the door!) The water storage Incorporated around the firebox absorbs any and all heat that will be generated right after power age. Thats the beauty of onboard storage. Now when yours has a power failure at full burn I have to agree with leaddog in that I think your unit will be ready for the scrapyard.

Paul glad you calmed down and stopped shouting, but you still ain't going to sell me on one of your units.


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## heaterman (Feb 13, 2009)

Saints preserve us How did I miss this thread?

I

have 

NOTHING

to 

contribute

to

this

conversation.

 :gulp:  :roll:


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## Eric Johnson (Feb 13, 2009)

Oh come on, heaterman. Might as well join the fun.

I'm thinking about stickying this one both for its entertainment and educational value.


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## webbie (Feb 13, 2009)

Combustion aside, I have concerns about the boiler and jacket heat loss. The side walls look fairly thin, considering that a water jacket AND insulation has to be there - and the front appears to have relatively little or no insulation. It would seem that 15% or more of the heat produced is radiated to the great outdoors.


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## stee6043 (Feb 13, 2009)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Combustion aside, I have concerns about the boiler and jacket heat loss. The side walls look fairly thin, considering that a water jacket AND insulation has to be there - and the front appears to have relatively little or no insulation. It would seem that 15% or more of the heat produced is radiated to the great outdoors.



But the door is camoflauged, Webmaster....if you can't see the door can it really be a source of heat loss?  Not different than "if a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around to hear it...."

ha.


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## NWfuel (Feb 13, 2009)

Maybe we need to take up a collection and send someone to Minnasota. However, I would never post pictures of my machine if no patent pending. Just my 2 scents, this leaves 3 senses available! Right Craig!


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## Jackpine Savage (Feb 13, 2009)

I've been following this thread, I'm not sure why, I certainly have other things I should be doing. But anyway, I went to town today, and as I was making a turn at the stoplight in Wadena, MN, what do I see but TWO Lilpowerhouse boilers on a trailer. The camo doors left no question. The guys pulling the trailer could probably hear me laughing as I thought about some of the comments on this thread.

My question for the manufacturer is how well that 16 guage metal stands up to an overheat condition. I would guess you would definitely want a low water cut-off device.


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## Rick Stanley (Feb 13, 2009)

All of you manufacturers, dealers, distributors, sales-reps and installers of wood heating equipment that pretty much rely on your gift as a B.S. artist to stay in business. 

BEWARE!!  The car in your rear-view mirror could be a Hearth.com guy. We ARE everywhere................................... :coolgrin:


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## Cheap wood heat (Feb 14, 2009)

Hey Jackpine
You saw those boilers going out today that is great! Just sold them from this thread!
This site has made my phone ring crazy with people ready to buy they are spending there tax return money for our product!
Many people have already researched the d/d system and large water capacity and felt it was not only not cost effective but also a very complicated system to operate a nightmare to maintain and repair! 
My customers seem to realize that all the heat in the water where it can be lost compared to storing the heat in the wood is ridiculous.
They say so little heat extraction surface so much heat loss surface area on the large water capacity!
And the price they say!One customer said he felt it would take him the rest of his life just to break even on the Garn he was quoted on and he called his wood free!
So lets keep talking so I keep making money and helping people who really need help in today's economy!!
Keep up the good work guys!
Thanks
Paul


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## sdrobertson (Feb 14, 2009)

Cheap wood heat said:
			
		

> You saw those boilers going out today that is great! Just sold them from this thread!
> This site has made my phone ring crazy with people ready to buy they are spending there tax return money for our product!
> Keep up the good work guys!
> Thanks
> Paul



Maybe you should contact the owner and advertise your product on this uneducated site and then the money will really roll in and help put all the country back to work.


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## Cheap wood heat (Feb 14, 2009)

To all you gasification experts
Tell everyone here what gasification is???
Then for those of you looking to see if there answer is right  look in webster dictionary for the answer!
Every wood stove is a gasifier!!


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## Cheap wood heat (Feb 14, 2009)

To SDRobertson
Thanks for the advice but this seems to working just fine for me!!


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## EForest (Feb 14, 2009)

Hey Cheap,

Y'all seem like a highly edyamakated guy. Thanks for all yer wysdumb.
I fer one hav ejoyed these posts laetly.

thanx sew mulch!


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## brad068 (Feb 14, 2009)

Cheap wood heat said:
			
		

> Hey Jackpine
> You saw those boilers going out today that is great! Just sold them from this thread!
> This site has made my phone ring crazy with people ready to buy they are spending there tax return money for our product!
> Many people have already researched the d/d system and large water capacity and felt it was not only not cost effective but also a very complicated system to operate a nightmare to maintain and repair!
> ...



This sounds like the preachings that David Koresh preached to his followers in that Branch Dividian compound mess. We all know how well that turned out for his followers :red: 

And everyone thought Yugo's were the hot item when they came over. Thats where I would categorize these boilers :coolsmile: 

I do believe that I could incinerate your entire boiler in my furnace if given the chance. Would you indulge me?


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## Cheap wood heat (Feb 14, 2009)

Hey garnification Got a gasifier?? He He Ha Ha Ho Ho!!
Please see webster dictionary on gasification!!


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## Cheap wood heat (Feb 14, 2009)

Man I just can't believe no one here can answer the gasification question! Thought you guys who slam me and my product would know the answer!!


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## brad068 (Feb 14, 2009)

Cheap heater, This is how I classify a gasification boiler compared to a force/natural draft boiler or furnace. I compare it to a oxy/acetylene torch. The later is like a flame burning with only acetylene and a gasification is burning with the perfect mix of both.

Obviously yours is the latter, orange, pukey, soot filled flame. On the other hand the mix of the fuel, (acetylene) with the correct amount of oxygen ,BEFORE it hits the secondary burn chamber is where the two unit separate into two different categories. AGAIN, a secondary chamber. A true gasification burner will expel gases out of the fuel AND completely burn them.

I just remembered, do you use a catalytic combustor on your boilers????


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## Cheap wood heat (Feb 14, 2009)

Hey Garnification
Seems you made up a new definition for gasification to suit what you would like to say!
Sell it to webster maybe!
Seems you guys want me to give real descriptive answers and you make things up as you go !
That's what makes this so good for me and why my phone is ringing!!


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## Dave T (Feb 14, 2009)

To any of the boiler room folks that bought this boiler,
   Give us an update, I wanna hear about customer service, the ability of the LPH personel to help you set up your system, what was your wait time to get the boiler, take us some pics so we can see the grates and air inlet positions, keep us updated on thoughts and functionality.. Thanks again BOILER ROOM AND IT'S PEOPLE for expanding the horizens and getting REAL WORLD FEEDBACK...Dave


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## brad068 (Feb 14, 2009)

Cheap heater, Do you use a catalytic combustor in your boilers??


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## Ugly (Feb 14, 2009)

Cheap wood heat said:
			
		

> Hey garnification Got a gasifier?? He He Ha Ha Ho Ho!!
> Please see webster dictionary on gasification!!



In order to accept that all boilers create gasification by the definition utilized in Websters, we'd first have to recognize Websters as the definitive scientific dictionary of our era. I don't. For an enhanced explanation of gasificiation, I'd like to turn your attention to Van Nostrand's Scientific Encyclopedia, something a little more concrete than a simple dictionary. I don't look in the phone book to learn to add or substract and neither do I look in the dictionary to learn science.

Gasification relies on chemical processes at elevated temperatures >700°C, which distinguishes it from other processes. Gasification is essentially a process that converts carbonaceous materials, such as coal, petroleum, or biomass, into carbon monoxide and hydrogen.

Regards


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## Cheap wood heat (Feb 14, 2009)

Garnification
And now that you bring up my silly thing about air to fuel mixture lets look at yours 350-400 cfms with 100#s of wood that is a pretty poor fuel to air mix !
You said you were burning 100#s of oak in 3 hrs so we have  350 cfm's X 60 minutes X3 hours  which is 42000 cubic feet of air through your unit per burn !
And you say your efficient??
Better do more research on fuel to air ration !!
Does your torch still work if you give it too much oxygen?? No I didn't think so either!!


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## brad068 (Feb 14, 2009)

I don’t look in the phone book to learn to add or subtract.

That is hilarious, I have to remember that one!


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## Sibert (Feb 14, 2009)

I have been reading this forum for a while now, and had to make join to post on here.  I would still like to see some pictures, movies, or hear some first hand information on one of these things.  I plan on building an outdoor wood burner this summer and I was hoping to see some great idea to incorporate into mine, buy all that is going on now is people bickering.  I would imagine there are more people watching this thread that would just like to see some of the questions that have been asked that makes this thing so efficient over the others in the world.  Now we are worrying about what words mean.


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## NNYorker (Feb 14, 2009)

I thought the Adobe thread was pretty big....... I think we're off track again. Definitions of gasification????????? Didn't this thread start out looking for any type of real pictures of the construction of the boiler, how is this thing made and out of what. I think everybody is curious --how about some close up photos of the burn chamber,video of a burn was mentioned earlier,etc,etc,etc. People are looking for some substance to back up your claims. This is what this forum and the web is for --information , learning........


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## brad068 (Feb 14, 2009)

Garnification said:
			
		

> Cheap heater, Do you use a catalytic combustor in your boilers??



 Again,

 Do you use a catalytic combustor in your boilers?


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## kenny chaos (Feb 14, 2009)

I don't know much about boilers, but I know more than I want to about people.
I thought that I had strongly suggested we put an end to this while nobody but 
the rightful person looked the fool.
Some people by nature cannot resist "the carrot" and I imagine this will soon 
end up in the ash can where it should probably be anyways.
I'm disappointed.


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## mike1234 (Feb 14, 2009)

What a thread.  Full of turf defending, accusations, a little name calling.  Better than the soaps on TV.  Wondering who is sneaking over to sleep with who's wife next??   ;-P 

Besides all of the drama, I know DD people are going to defend their boilers to the death, even though I think that SOME DAY someone will come up with a better way to get heat out of wood.  This may or may not be it, but in general most jumped on the bandwagon that this stuff was crap, it could not work, and no amount of math, science, BS, whatever was going to change your mind.   You might be right, I don't know, but I won't jump on that bandwagon.  That said, I would not buy one until I talked to a dozen people who had burned theirs for 15 years without any trouble.

For those attacking, are you trying to convince him to take all of his boilers to the junkyard to sell as scrap?  You think he is going to do that?
For Paul, give it a rest, you're not going to convince them that your design is even viable, so sell your boilers and service them and prove everyone wrong so that in 5 years we are all saying, those are sure awesome boilers, maybe they will have their forum.  If however you are selling less than great boilers, there will be lots of "I told you so" going on.

Maybe I should keep my mouth shut, but every now and then it's nice to at least sound like the voice of reason.  
Now back to "As the World Turns,"  did you know that Grace was actually the son of George, but that they messed up the sex change operation and .......


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## Cheap wood heat (Feb 14, 2009)

See why you would like to end this Kenny 
So now we are looking at 700 deg c which is 1292 degree f so tell me how you gasifications people get that temp from the primary burn of your wood!!


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## brad068 (Feb 14, 2009)

Mike and Kenny, you guys are absolute right. I quit this thread a couple pages back and should of never jumped back in. Thanks for refresh :zip:


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## Cheap wood heat (Feb 14, 2009)

And kenny was that b4 or after you posted the lies about me I do see why you want out!!
PLEASE TELL THE PEOPLE YOU WERE LYING ABOUT WHAT YOU SAID!!


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## leaddog (Feb 14, 2009)

mike1234 said:
			
		

> What a thread.  Full of turf defending, accusations, a little name calling.  Better than the soaps on TV.  Wondering who is sneaking over to sleep with who's wife next??   ;-P
> 
> Besides all of the drama, I know DD people are going to defend their boilers to the death, even though I think that SOME DAY someone will come up with a better way to get heat out of wood.  This may or may not be it, but in general most jumped on the bandwagon that this stuff was crap, it could not work, and no amount of math, science, BS, whatever was going to change your mind.   You might be right, I don't know, but I won't jump on that bandwagon.  That said, I would not buy one until I talked to a dozen people who had burned theirs for 15 years without any trouble.
> 
> ...



I would agree except I think that most people reading this see a lot of holes in the claims being made here. I for one would hate to see someone shell out big bucks for a boiler that doesn't live up to the claims. There is a lot of OWB being sold out there that are JUNK. They are what is causing the big uproar and causing the regulations that are going to hurt us all. I have no axe to grind and if I'm wrong I'l be the first to say so but untill the proof is in the pudding buyer be ware. I haven't seen any new or different development here that shows that boiler can do what is claimed. You can't change science just by claiming things.
leaddog


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## Cheap wood heat (Feb 14, 2009)

MIKE1234 
Thanks mike I didn't find this site by looking for it I found it under LILPOWERHOUSE on a web search so when I read it I atleast felt I could set things a bit straight but when I got here I got hammered by how dumb I was !I have 30 years experience in the outdoor boiler industry and have test most of what is being discussed ! And at no time did I say I was better than anyone here !
When someone made What I felt was  baseless statements I just asked for there credential's as I thought people giving advise to prospective customers of wood furnaces should have some!! I have stated mine !!


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## kenny chaos (Feb 14, 2009)

Cheap wood heat said:
			
		

> And kenny was that b4 or after you posted the lies about me I do see why you want out!!
> PLEASE TELL THE PEOPLE YOU WERE LYING ABOUT WHAT YOU SAID!!




No problem dude.  The truth is, he would not give me any references.
I believe I had already clarified that.

As an old hippie in my own right, I appreciate his abilitity to folk with the establishment.


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## brad068 (Feb 14, 2009)

Cheap wood heat said:
			
		

> See why you would like to end this Kenny
> So now we are looking at 700 deg c which is 1292 degree f so tell me how you gasification people get that temp from the primary burn of your wood!!



You know, I was going to quit and go work in the shop but what the hell!, I mizes' well finish the night here!

Paul I will say it ,You are as dumb as a post!

Have you been paying attention at all or are you still stuck in your fantasy land?

How does the cutting torch obtain the extreme temps to cut steel. EXCESS OXYGEN! Same principle with a gasification boiler. Only addition is that a gasification boiler uses a refractory lined chamber to keep the exhaust gases very hot and some dwell time in this chamber to complete combustion. Definition of refract is to bend which is exactly what it does with the high heat created in that chamber. It turns back the heat into the gases instead of into the water jack.

Paul, does your boiler use a catalytic combustor?


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## Sibert (Feb 14, 2009)

Paul you got on here once again and read through the posts and still answered no questions about why the boiler is better.  If you go back through the pages there are plenty of unanswered questions that you have skipped over to argue with people about credentials and definitions rather than giving us answers.


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## webbie (Feb 14, 2009)

Ok, Ok,

If lil is selling boilers, I want my commission.
After all, he doesn't work for free, but I should?

 :lol: 

Closing the thread - I think the basic questions and issues have been addressed.


----------

