# Froling Turbo 3000???



## djbutt (Dec 1, 2009)

I have read good things about the Froling. It seems to be the "Cadillac" of gasification boilers. 

Highest price does not always mean best product, but sometimes you really do get what you pay for.

Does anyone other than a Bioheat salesman have any first hand expieience with one?

I'm installing in a basement with storage. 

I've narrowed my list down to Froling Turbo 3000, Tarm Solo Innova 50 or an EKO 60 with a draft inducer.

My goals are one or two burns a day and a smoke free basement to help "sell" the wife on wood heat.

I know many are happy with the EKOs and the Tarms, but haven't seen any "My Froling is great" posts.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Dec 1, 2009)

Check out the Youtube video titled "Froling start-up". This is one impressive boiler. I hope they have relaxed their selling policies some, Randy


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## Gooserider (Dec 1, 2009)

Welcome to the forums Dave, but I would mention one possible major caution as I noticed that you are also from Mass...  If you are planning to do a pressurized system, you can't do anything other than the extra cost ASME versions of Woodgun or Econoburn...  Mass. has some really stupid regs that say all pressure vessels must be ASME approved (which also means you can't use propane tanks for storage BTW) they will not accept the much more stringent EU EN-303-5 standard that the Euroboilers are built to...

BioHeat should be familiar with this, as they were at the same Mass. Boiler Rules Committee hearings that I was at, where the ASME certified, ASME shop employed members decided to protect their self interest and screw over the folks that live in MA and want to save energy - standard gov't corruption at work...

You can do a "European Open" style system where you have an open expansion tank in the attic, and use whatever boiler you like, assuming you can get your local building inspector to buy off on it...

Gooserider


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## Nofossil (Dec 1, 2009)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> Welcome to the forums Dave, but I would mention one possible major caution as I noticed that you are also from Mass...  If you are planning to do a pressurized system, you can't do anything other than the extra cost ASME versions of Woodgun or Econoburn...  Mass. has some really stupid regs that say all pressure vessels must be ASME approved (which also means you can't use propane tanks for storage BTW) they will not accept the much more stringent EU EN-303-5 standard that the Euroboilers are built to...
> 
> BioHeat should be familiar with this, as they were at the same Mass. Boiler Rules Committee hearings that I was at, where the ASME certified, ASME shop employed members decided to protect their self interest and screw over the folks that live in MA and want to save energy - standard gov't corruption at work...
> 
> ...



I spent a couple of days in a trade show booth with a Froling. It really is pretty impressive. It has a smoke extractor passage built into the top of the door opening. Build quality and control sophistication is second to none. It has more expensive components that could fail, which might be a down side. It uses both a Lambda sensor and flue temp sensor, and has servos to control primary / secondary air volumes.

I don't have first hand experience operating it, though.


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## dogwood (Dec 1, 2009)

Dave, there are at least a couple posts you can use the search function to look for, one by the installer, and one with pictures and input from the owner of a Froling. Before you get your heart set on buying one check with BioHeat on what purchasing one entails. Froling requires BioHeat to have your installer attend installation training hosted by the seller. In my case it was not feasible to fly someone a long distance for installation training on top of the sticker price. Hard to believe, but they  turned my in hand purchase money down. Go figure. I was disappointed, as I really wanted that big, shiny boy toy. However I did end up purchasing the Solo Innova 50. The Solo Innova may work out better with so many fewer possible features to potentially fail, as NoFossil mentioned. Baxi (formerly Tarm) do have a Solo Innova lamda unit model available, but in Europe only. Maybe that high tech feature will become available someday as an add-on to make the Innova more closely approximate the Froling.

Looks like Mass. regulations may be a problem for you too. Nothing like big business and government to mess up a good thing. I am happy with my Solo Innova so everything did turn out well on my end.  I saved a few thousand and maybe avoided other headaches. Good luck on your purchase. I will be envious if you do get the Froling. Keep us posted. 

Mike


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## antos_ketcham (Dec 2, 2009)

We have one installed where I work. It is a pretty amazing machine. Totally automated. Load the wood and walk away. One of the nice features of the Froling is that when you open the outer door it automatically engages a fan bypass that cleans out any smoke in the firebox that could cause a flash back. I'd highly recommend it. Anyone who is in or near northern Vermont and wants to see it in action let me know. 

Pete


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## Hansson (Dec 2, 2009)

ETA is a fine boiler to. I don't now if it`s sold i the US but maybe worth a look
http://www.biovarmebd.se/Produktblad/ETA_SH_20-60_Vedpanna.pdf
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2Y0A-BDaxE&feature=related


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## Singed Eyebrows (Dec 2, 2009)

Hansson; Yes, the ETA is a great boiler & no we can't get this in the USA. This is the one on YouTube that Ian in Cork UK is very happy with. KWB is considered by a number of Greenbuildingforum members to be as good as it gets. If Froling does well here we might get some of these other fancy Lamda boilers. These 3 are very similar & are all hot plated so creosote in the primary chamber burns right off, Randy


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## stee6043 (Dec 2, 2009)

I personally would think these units would have to come down in price to be serious contenders in North America.  Especially with current propane/NG/fuel oil prices.  For the money I think I'd still buy a Garn without hesitation...and have some coin left over....and install it myself.....if I had the room....


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## Hansson (Dec 2, 2009)

I think they are to expensive to. The ETA SH 60 is 9.240,00 €.
What are the price of the fröling turbo?


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## Singed Eyebrows (Dec 2, 2009)

Hansson; The small Froling Turbo is right around $12,000 US. I'm not sure about the 60 size to compare with the ETA you mentioned, Randy


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## stee6043 (Dec 2, 2009)

Last I heard you also had to use a "factory installer" as well.  I was under the impression that the boiler, installed, was well over the $20,000 mark here in the US...


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## Singed Eyebrows (Dec 2, 2009)

True, the $12,000 is a price that is just thrown out in the Bioheat sales literature. As Mike found out you can't buy one for that. I understand better your comparison to the Garn now, Randy


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## Como (Dec 2, 2009)

If you look at the total cost, including storage, construction, distribution etc etc and then amortize it over the period of operation, the actual cost of the boiler is relatively small.

The US does have a relatively small choice, and much of that is down to restrictive practices. My first choice is not available in the US, I currently favour the Garn, it does have advantage over my first choice in certain areas.

I will go and have a look at that forum.


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## Hansson (Dec 2, 2009)

Singed Eyebrows said:
			
		

> Hansson; The small Froling Turbo is right around $12,000 US. I'm not sure about the 60 size to compare with the ETA you mentioned, Randy


The ETA SH 60 Fuel chamber is 223 litre and is on 60kw.
Weight 750 KG


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## Hydronics (Dec 2, 2009)

In my opinion, if you have the room and are willing to spend the extra cash (over a common gasifier), the Garn is the best unit overall.
I don't know enough about the operating details to make an informed decision on the Froling. I do question the cost/benefit with respect to the complexities and potential repair/operating issues of the Froling...


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## Hansson (Dec 2, 2009)

Whats so special whit the Garn? Can you get the tank stratified ?


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## Singed Eyebrows (Dec 2, 2009)

Hydronics; I would also be concerned about the $1000.00 computor etc in the Froling. It was this price about 1 year ago. Maybe someone will take pity on me & tell me how to highlight others posts at the beginning of my post, Thanks, Randy


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## Como (Dec 2, 2009)

Certainly one of the big plus factors is that the Garn is pretty bulletproof, a T34 of the boiler world.

And certainly one of the issues the higher tech stuff has is backup, not so much an issue on the other side of the pond.

Then there is the question of space, a Garn type boiler is much more practical in the US.

Plus the US has the advantage of cheap energy, that extra bit of efficiency is not so crucial.

I like the Garn, I alos liked the combined systems solutions put out by the Euro manufacturers.


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## brad068 (Dec 2, 2009)

Hansson said:
			
		

> Whats so special whit the Garn? Can you get the tank stratified ?



WA..WA..WA..WHAT so special with the GARN!? That like saying what so special about the Internet?!

Hansson, we were just discussing this topic a few days ago. The garn does stratify when the burn cycle is done.
I do notice this now, now that I'm drawing off the top of my unit. When a burn cycle starts, In a time frame of about 5-15 minutes you will see the discharge temp drop as much as 10*F. The water is mixing due to the thermal currents created by the hot heat exchanger passes.And when the burn is done the water calms down and starts to stratify. No need to mix water with a pump when charging storage, the in tank hx passes do it automatically by design.


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## Hydronics (Dec 2, 2009)

Singed Eyebrows said:
			
		

> Hydronics; I would also be concerned about the $1000.00 computor etc in the Froling. It was this price about 1 year ago. Maybe someone will take pity on me & tell me how to highlight others posts at the beginning of my post, Thanks, Randy



Randy,
I agree. Click the QUOTE button below the post you want to comment on.


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## Chris Hoskin (Dec 3, 2009)

for the record, the Froling FHG-L 20/30 sells for $9950 and the 49/50 sells for $10,700.  Add about a thousand dollars worth of accessories and thermal storage.  If all of that is bought turn key along with a professional installation total cost is likely to exceed $20k.  I am curious, what are the equivalent cost for a Garn?  I would think that the unit, plus transport, siting, garn barn and (frequently) underground pex would add up to all of that?  No?

Chris


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## Como (Dec 3, 2009)

The smallest Garn has twice the output of the largest US sold Froling so it is a bit difficult doing a direct comparison.

1500 gallons of storage is a going to cost a lot, I do not have my figures to hand but I think the 1500 is about $14k

Installation is cheaper because it is one box, for me a major saving is the ability to vent horizontally and avoid a few thousand on a suitable chimney.

The Garn Barn is a wash, I need to put whatever I have somewhere, the separation of boiler and storage may make it more practical for others not to need a separate building.

The Froling is more high tech, more efficient, has an auto feed model, pellets, but that one is seriously expensive.

Chalk and cheese.


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## DaveBP (Dec 3, 2009)

OK, now that we have some of the principals involved I would like to ask a question that has long been on my mind. 

This thread has brought up the question of what happens to a Froling boiler when one of the high tech components fails

So, Chris, now that you're here, do you know what happens when,say, the lambda sensor quits, or the microprocessor itself get cranky? Does the whole machine just sit down and quit? Does it lapse into a "dumb normal gassifier" mode and continue working but not as wonderfully? I could live with the latter. Defaulting to "not-so-great but still warm by morning" is acceptable.
I'm surprised that they cost so little more than the Innova, frankly. I thought they were quite a bit more than that but can't recall where I got that notion.

And Hansson, in America it is not a good idea to ask a Harley-Davidson owner what is so special about their motorcycle. The same thing is true about Garns, apparently.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Dec 3, 2009)

I have a direct price list from September 15, 2008 that shows the Froling Turbo 3000 20/30 at $11,000 & the 40/50 at $12,5000. I can take a picture of it if necessary. They had then gone up from there. Are they now going down in price? This would be good news, Randy


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## djbutt (Dec 3, 2009)

Durango said:
			
		

> The smallest Garn has twice the output of the largest US sold Froling so it is a bit difficult doing a direct comparison.
> 
> 1500 gallons of storage is a going to cost a lot, I do not have my figures to hand but I think the 1500 is about $14k
> 
> ...




Basement boiler vs outdoor boiler is apples and oranges (or chalk and cheese).

I grew up and live on a farm in New England and have done my share of working outside year round.

However, I would have a hard sell getting my, imported from out of state professional type, wife to go outside and feed a garn.

A basement install of a smoke free Froling or Tarm is VERY civilized.


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## kabbott (Dec 3, 2009)

Dave B said:
			
		

> However, I would have a hard sell getting my, imported from out of state professional type, wife to go outside and feed a garn..



Darn high maintenance imports LOL :shut:


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## brad068 (Dec 3, 2009)

kabbott said:
			
		

> Dave B said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 And if you did have a garn and she went out to feed it she might not come back in....  ever heard a woman say "its not the size that matters" :kiss:


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## kabbott (Dec 3, 2009)

good point... you keep that up and you will make the quotes in my sig. :grrr:  ha ha

Once you go Garn ...............................


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## Chris Hoskin (Dec 7, 2009)

Hi all, sorry to be delinquent, I was on the road all last week.  I have enjoyed catching up on the chalk to apples comparison!  Good stuff.  OK, a couple of responses due:

1.  Yes, the Fröling FHG-L and the Tarm Solo Innova have both come down in price for 2009.  Prices as posted earlier.

2.  If there is a major fault in the FHG control board, the boiler shuts down completely because the fan is controlled off of this board (no 'dumb gasifier' mode).  Normally, of course, these boilers are installed in conjunction with some kind of fossil fuel back up boiler so, in that case, the house would at least not go cold.  Parts are stocked here in Lyme.

3.  So, if size matters, is a Garn owner over compensating for feelings of inadequacy?  My dream system involves a 1000 gallon vertical LP tank for storage......guess I shouldn't talk!


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