# Where did all the power go?



## begreen (Feb 17, 2018)

Not often discussed, but now becoming a major concern is the effect of the cloud on carbon emissions. Add to this the cost of cryptocurrency mining and it has become an issue. 
http://kuow.org/post/what-amazon-doesn-t-want-you-know-about-cloud


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## vinny11950 (Feb 27, 2018)

The more we have, the more we use.  All these technological breakthroughs in efficiency just lead to more use of what has become cheaper.


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## begreen (Feb 27, 2018)

Kind of like when a low calorie cookie that still tastes good comes out. Oh boy, now I can eat twice as much of them!


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## vinny11950 (Feb 27, 2018)

Remember when email first came out and some people predicted it would save paper because people wouldn't have to write letters anymore?  Well that was done in by the cheap printers that allow more people to hit everything they want.


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## Cynnergy (Mar 14, 2018)

Really interesting feature by the Atlantic yesterday on the craziness of bitcoin’s unintended (but probably not unforeseeable) social and environmental consequences: 

https://www.theatlantic.com/technol...bitrages-cheap-electricity-into-money/555416/

Personally I’d rather have the salmon runs restored...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Circus (Mar 16, 2018)

Cynnergy said:


> Really interesting feature by the Atlantic yesterday on the craziness of bitcoin’s unintended (but probably not unforeseeable) social and environmental consequences:


Spending tWh of electricity on something of no intrinsic value. We're insane.  Scarcity for currency could be made with something that's has limited availability and worthless. Car for sale 25000 FNC (finger nail clippings)
Now there's malware going around hijacking personal computers to mine bitcoins so the miners don't have to pay for electricity, buy powerful computers or worry about overheating.


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## begreen (Mar 17, 2018)

High end animators are pissed because there are no top end NVidia cards on the market. They have all been snapped up by bitcoin miners that use the gpus to crunch numbers.


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## Brian26 (Mar 17, 2018)

I visited Iceland last year. The entire country is run by renewable energy mostly geothermal.  My tour guide said there is a massive amount of data centers being built because of it.


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## begreen (Mar 17, 2018)

I've been advocating for our regional power company to build a geothermal plant instead of a new gas plant.


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## CaptSpiff (Mar 17, 2018)

begreen said:


> I've been advocating for our regional power company to build a geothermal plant instead of a new gas plant.



What are the economics on that?


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## begreen (Mar 17, 2018)

Long term they can be good. Like hydro, once the infrastructure is in the operating costs are pretty reasonable. The efficiency is much lower than other thermal conversion plants, but the fuel is free.

https://www.geothermal-energy.org/pdf/IGAstandard/NZGW/2012/46654final00097.pdf


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## CaptSpiff (Mar 18, 2018)

begreen said:


> Long term they can be good. Like hydro, once the infrastructure is in the operating costs are pretty reasonable. The efficiency is much lower than other thermal conversion plants, but the fuel is free.



Those economics worked well under the prior vertical Utility structure where they made a 10-11% ROI on anything they built.

Now Generators are supposed to be independent producers offering their energy at market prices. Building a power plant in a high electricity cost location can bring in huge profits, until a transmission line is brought in and the power plant becomes an idle eyesore. The bankers know this, so financing for anything like Geo/Nuc/Hydro will be nearly impossible going forward.


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## georgepds (Mar 18, 2018)

I think you are underestimating the difficulty of getting permits for a new transmission line

Reference the northern pass line in new England


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## CaptSpiff (Mar 19, 2018)

georgepds said:


> I think you are underestimating the difficulty of getting permits for a new transmission line
> 
> Reference the northern pass line in new England



Nope, I'm not, and you're right... it is super difficult.
Northern Pass (and its alternatives) is a Kill Shot to 20% of the existing legacy power plants in the Mass and surrounding region. And those legacy plants fund a lot of local services thru their taxes, especially school taxes. So opposition is deep and can come from some surprising sources.

But lines do get built. Here's a 500Kv line from Pa to NJ that was recently commissioned:
http://www.tdworld.com/transmission/power-new-jersey-protection-nature

My point was that financing a Power plant in the private sector is much more difficult than under the old Utility model. Unless firm PPA's (Power Purchase Agreements) are set up with guarantees, and then we're right back to where we were pre-deregulation.


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## georgepds (Mar 19, 2018)

CaptSpiff said:


> .....
> Northern Pass (and its alternatives) is a Kill Shot to 20% of the existing legacy power plants in the Mass and surrounding region. And those legacy plants fund a lot of local services thru their taxes, especially school taxes. So opposition is deep and can come from some surprising sources.
> 
> .......



You seem to suggest that the opposition is from  power plants. While this makes sense, my understanding is the principal opposition is from the residents of Northern NH who did not want a HV transmission line in their neighborhood


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