# change power companies in PA?



## maverick06 (Dec 1, 2012)

I live in pa and as we arent regulated I can chose my power company via papowerswitch.com 

But there are so many choices I was wondering if anyone here has had good results in doing this? The fixed price/no cancellation fee options are clearly safe. Many are variable rate, with lower rates. I am not sure how much they vary the rates though. Not sure if that would set me up to get hose by some unscrupulous power company. And I have had a terrible time finding any reviews.

What have you guys done.


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## Redbarn (Dec 1, 2012)

maverick06 said:


> I live in pa and as we arent regulated I can chose my power company via papowerswitch.com
> 
> But there are so many choices I was wondering if anyone here has had good results in doing this? The fixed price/no cancellation fee options are clearly safe. Many are variable rate, with lower rates. I am not sure how much they vary the rates though. Not sure if that would set me up to get hose by some unscrupulous power company. And I have had a terrible time finding any reviews.
> 
> What have you guys done.



We have Met Ed as the service provider. After much research and using the basic criteria that a supplier had to have a Stock Symbol, we settled on a 1 year contract with Reliance Energy. Went to the Reliance web site and signed up directly.

This was cheaper than Met Ed over the 1st year but theoretically cost more than some of the variable options. From a billing standpoint, it is completely seamless and we pay our bill to MetEd as usual. You actually have to read the bill to find that Met Ed bills for both companies.

Met Ed prices varied a lot over the 1st year but when it came to renewal time, Met Ed dropped their price. Reliance beat it so we signed up for another 1 year deal. Our rates have dropped by 3+ cents per KWhr over the 18 months. So far, so good.


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## woodgeek (Dec 1, 2012)

I've stuck with PECO while they taper off the winter discount.  I guess in Jan 2013 I'll look around and ask you who I should go with.


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## Jerry_NJ (Dec 7, 2012)

I've used a source (Edit: Constellation Energy) to supply my electricity through JCP&L for something approaching 2 years. The first year I save in the neighborhood of $15 per month on a contract price. I am now on a variable price and sometimes it is more than JCP&L . I just haven't gotten around to changing back to JCP&L. I may look for one of the outfits that gives Airline miles : ) as a bonus.


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## jwoair23 (Dec 7, 2012)

I have Duquesne Light as my "normal" supplier. I just recently switched to IGS Energy, they had a 12 year lock on the rate, no cancellation fee. It seems like a good deal overall, but I haven't had it kick in yet as I only did it a month ago. I think my next bill should reflect it. 

I wasn't able to find anyone else I knew that had done it, for comparison's sake, so I am hoping for the best!


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## Elle (Dec 14, 2012)

I've stayed with PPL. My brother uses Dominion and is happy with it. I've done things like turn off surge protectors that have " stand by" items in them. That alone cut my bill almost in half!!


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## Jerry_NJ (Dec 15, 2012)

Well if your usage is measured in Killo-Watt-Hours not Milli-Watt-Hours I wonder how you could even detect the difference with surge protectors on or off   I have a watt meter and what I believe are surge protectors, those extension cords with an on/off switch and a number of outlets in an enclosure, so I can measure mine.  If you have high loads on one or more of the outlets then turning the surge protector off would shut those loads off, is that what you're talking about?

Since I went off Contract (fixed) charges for electric energy from Constellation (delivered by Jersey Central P&L) I find the saving are not always positive, i.t., sometimes JCP&L charges less.  JCP&L provides me their rate in each billing so that I can compare, and I do.  I wonder how many others track the "savings".   I have considered returning to JCP&L for the energy, or finding a third party provider that also give miles on United Air Lines - I had an offer on that some months back but I can't find it now.  Not on the web or the UA web either.


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 15, 2012)

Well PPL and the PUC gave us a good one this time. The PUC is ;letting them  raise the customer charge from $8+ to over $15 almost double ,and thats before you use a single kill-a-watt. The PUC here should be elected instead of hand picked industry insiders who are throwing us under the bus at every opportunity.


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## Jerry_NJ (Dec 15, 2012)

I don't recall what the customer charge is in NJ, but I"ll guess less than $10 for the last billing. 

We were without electric power for almost 10 days, and we were not last. That means our power company had all of its repair employees and equipment running a maximum over times (know ans 24/7).  The company also had even more crews in from out-of-state, including the home company First Energy of Ohio.  It was a First Energy team that go our street service back on.  Just that, and after the town and cut a narrow path down the road through fallen trees, mostly evergreen, I now hate White Pine trees..that's another story.  So all this work can be paid for or we can think like Big Labor an tell the private companies they have to print money (like our government) to pay for the restoration.  Remember Hostess bakers?  I think they had been around most of my life time (I'm in my 70s) and they are no more because they were told (by the Union in this case) they have to somehow create wealth (also know as bad guys in Washington DC) and not compensate their employees at a level that allowed them to compete in the marketplace.

Yes, the power companies are heavily regulated but private.  They can not create wealth (pay for stuff) beyond what the market/regulators will allow.  Yes, I am suspicious of in-bed relationships between regulators (politicians) and the poeple they are supposed to oversee... look at the public employee unions and elected officials who grant wages and benefits that the overtaxed citizens can't afford, even though they are the ones who create wealth.  Even there there is a limit to how deep the pockets are.

So, if you want to feel bad about an increase in the customer charge, keep your head down as you look at the cost to you from the continuing roll out of Obama Care and more regulations - Obama is still after coal, and while he didn't succeed in the Ca p and Trade legislation (even his progressive democrats wouldn't pass it) his free and excessive use of the regulatory powers is accomplishing the same thing.  Watch the environmental folks push you electric bill up by double, then who you going to blame?   I blame us, we who elect corrupt and power hungry officials.  Even if we didn't vote for them, the fact that they get elected says we who didn't vote for them didn't do enough to defeat them.

A good example of what is yet to happen to electric power cost take a look at gasoline and heating oil.  I'll estimate in the past 15 years my electric cost, energy plus delivery, went from 9 cents to 14 cents per KWH, a little under 50%, heating oil went from $1 to $4 per gallon, up 400%, this is Obama's goal, as he said himself before being elected the first time:  "electric rates will necessarily skyrocket"  he's still yet to deliver on that promise but he's working on it.  That increase will come by increasing generation cost from coal and oil, even natural gas - and we know how he feels about nuclear.  So, your doubled customer charge will pales into insignificance as you electric rates make you think about getting used to being cold and in the dark.

I also expect to see my homeowner policy cost go up due to storm damage form Sandy. And in spite of the fact my company denied my claim - a small claim my losses didn't include my home.


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 15, 2012)

The main reason why PPL is pushing to double customer charges is they cannot compete with other electric providers on generation,they keep getting creamed in a competitive market so they are sticking it to us where they have no competition,and thats in delivery. We had  little damage from sandy so its not from that. The editorial in our local paper today really chastised PPL for this latest money grab. They are guaranteeing shareholders a 10% annual return on a utility stock,pretty rare in this economy. I can see where power companies servicing beach front towns will have increased costs going forward,possibly they should charge more for electric there to balance the cost/risk.


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## Jerry_NJ (Dec 15, 2012)

Okay, sounds like a back-room deal.  I assumed it was based on damage such as we have in NJ.  I know PA didn't get hit as hard but I figured hard enough to be a needing $$ for repairs.

Seems we agree there are two many deals and not enough creation of value and efficiency - which had been the American way and free markets.  I don't see anyway out of the regulated delivery because the cost of infrastructure is too high for several suppliers to build delivery to the end user.  That said there has to be regulatory oversight, not deal making, if this arrangement is to be good value for the dollar.

Sorry about the diatribe.. I try not to do that, sometimes I back-slide.   Regulation is a pet peeve of mine.


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## Hearth Mistress (Dec 15, 2012)

We have Met-ed here but only a few houses down is PECO. Our house is 1100 sq feet, no kids, just my hubby and I, I work from home so during the day stuff is on.  Our electric bill was only over $100 ONCE in 10 years in the middle of summer when AC was kickin on high for weeks on end.

We now pay $75 a month, fixed regarless how how much we use. Whatever we over pay is credited to our account and left there until we ask for a refund.  Every 4 months the a analyze our usage and adjust out monthly fixed fees - so far it only goes down.

I started looking into other companies just out of curiosity but there were so many extras and fees and variables that I just gave up.

Just be sure to read all of the fine print, that is where they get you


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## Jerry_NJ (Dec 15, 2012)

Well what do you use electricity for? From your signature it looks like you  are a serious wood heat person - guess that's why the summer air conditioning bill it a high bill.  Do you use oil or gas (natural or otherwise)? 

A better measure of use is how many KWH, we don't need to know the rate  you are paying, including customer fees, to translate you usage.  I use about 1000 KWH per month average (or about $150) - but I am all electric, including heating (geo thermal heat pump) hot water, cooking, washing, and of course lighting which is mostly high efficiency... I also have almost twice the floor space at 2,000 square feet.  Thus, my interest in getting the KWH energy charge as low as I can.  Here I again note, electricity is still a bargain compared to oil heat.  Here I mean even resistive electric heat isn't too bad compared to oil, and if the resistive heat is controlled per room, one can heat only during the time the room is being used.

How do you like the Stihl mini boss?  Is that like the MS 260?  Not sure I have the model right, but it the MS isn't a commercial rated saw.  I purchased a new Husqvarna 440E with 16", it is better than my past stock of saws, but not a Stihl.


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## btuser (Dec 16, 2012)

We're in NH and switched from PSNH to somebody else.  When all is said and done we saved about 5-10 bucks a month on a large residential bill.  Now PSNH is petitioning to raise it's deliver charges, so that will go away soon.  

I wish we hadn't de-regulated our market.  Water is going to be next.


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## pen (Dec 16, 2012)

btuser said:


> I wish we hadn't de-regulated our market. Water is going to be next.


 
I'm in Pa and have been debating making a switch as well. However, while other companies offer lower rates the the one I was forced to be with before deregulation, talking to any one of them feels like I'm dealing with a greasy used car salesman, so I've stuck.

The thing is, Penelec (who I am with), actually wants it's current customers to leave! They apparently don't want the burden of reading meters and such.  The problem is I just haven't been able to find another supplier that isn't running scams / promotions that remind me of dealing with a cable or satellite company.

pen


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## Jerry_NJ (Dec 16, 2012)

I can't say I've dealt with a used car salesman in the past 40 years, thank God, but it does seem to my recollection of those dealings yields the same for the electric power industry, both the 3rd party suppliers and my home company, JCP&L.  I went through some searches on the web and then made several telephone calls to determine who was including, or not, which taxes when they quoted me their rate.  Even the JCP&L bill which provides their KWH rate for comparison.  I can determine the 3rd party rate by simply dividing the $$ by the KWH, and that was as advertised.  But not I'm on a floating rate and so it can go up/down each month (free market) and it does, yes even down.  

I don't see the deregulation issues as part of the problem, it is an attempt to put market pressure on the energy charge.  As there is no reasonable way to deregulated the delivery, it remains fully regulated.  If this results tin game-playing to up the customer charge (a regulated cost), then it is a regulation problem not a deregulation problem.

Unlike telephone, which had the same benefit, embedded wireline delivery of telephone service which was too expensive to build to expect any real competition there.  The regulator tried by forcing a similar hybrid, the telephone company had to lease the physical line to other providers .. this moved the goal posts a bit but didn't really open that market.  Wireless has, as the infrastructure had to be built by all providers, thus it was open to competition and their is true competition there and reasonably good value.  I use only pre-pay, ant that is 10 cent a minute including "long distance".  Then there voice over IP (Internet) which ratchets the cost down.  Lots of examples of how deregulation and market competition delivers better value to the end user, us.


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## johnny1720 (Dec 16, 2012)

I live in WNY and I switched to Ambit Energy about two years ago.  I switched in the winter because they give you a big discount for the first month then they beat National Grid's rates by 1% each month from there on.  I have saved a bunch of money, however every 12 months they send you a letter that needs to be returned.  If you do not return the letter the rates increase, (I found this out the hard way and had to get a new agreement from online).  I use between 900 KW's in the summer and 2000 KW's in the winter.  I have a geothermal heat pump that heats my house with no help from any other source.


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## Jerry_NJ (Dec 16, 2012)

Johnny,

I see you have a Closboy Pellet insert, don't you use that at all?  I have a Quadrafire Wood Insert and it see use when the outside temps dip low, here that would be below 30 degrees.  We rarely see temps below 20. 

What is your square foot for the heated space in you home?  Mine is 2,000 and in a cold month I can hit 2,000 KWH even with and estimated 30-40 hours of wood heat supplementing during the cold evening/nigh (but not over night) hours.  My Waterfurnace is approaching 20 years old and while it has seen a couple of expensive repairs in the last 5 years (a total of about $2,500 - or less than I have saved over the cost of oil heat, and there was the first 15 years with zero repairs).  How is the Climatemaster working out?  I think that's the brand my Waterfurnace installation company moved too and it is about time for me to be replacing the compressors, which translates to a new furnace - but I can still use the existing ground loop, a twin 250' vertical loop well sunk into the water aquifer. 

Hope this isn't a theft of thread, it is still about electricity and minimizing our cost (cost of living).  As for the customer service charge I'd not be angry with JCP&L and would expect it to either be temporary or dedicated to paying for the damage from Sandy and then sunk into delivery hardening.  JCP&L does spend a lot of $$ cutting and trimming trees along the rural roads where I live, but hurricane (nor an official hurricane according to my homeowner insurance company) Sandy showed we can not leave pine trees and other weak soft wood (we all like to burn hard wood, and I can say the many hard wood trees on my property survived - while large healthy looking White Pine snapped off, not uprooted, just snapped off about 5' above the ground) and week rooted trees within range of the aerial power lines.  Here is a rare case where I'd support application of (forget the term) laws on the books that allow government to overrule private property rights in the interest of the health and safety of all.  Here I anticipate some tall Pine trees on private property will have to be cut down as they are tall enough to reach the power lines.  This is a tough pill for me to swallow as I in general think government has too much power over our private lives.


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## johnny1720 (Dec 16, 2012)

Jerry, I live in WNY and I heat a 1850's house that is 2500 square feet.  I have not been through and entire winter but I am confident I will not surpass 2000kw per month.  I installed it last February and we had cold weather in March.  I have only burned maybe 3 bags of pellets since the install.  If you send me your email I will forward you my energy history spread sheet since 2008.  I have an electric range, dryer, well pump, lots of CFL's and almost all energy star appliances. I keep the house @ 70 or 72 depending on what it is doing outside.  I heat my hotwater with a propane tankless, i had an old electric that cost me about $70 per month to run in May of 2009.   

This might be the time to install a new heat pump, expect to spend 7k and you will probably get 50% of that back in taxes and rebates.  We had temps down near 10 late last february and the heat pump never went into stage two.


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## Jerry_NJ (Dec 16, 2012)

johnny,

I can't find the way to send you a private message, I'd like get you data, but do not like to put my email address in a blog message.  If we can send private messages via hearth.com send me one and I will respond with my private email.

I find a $7k estimate interesting, and I know nothing about the taxes and rebates offsets.  I got about 25% off the cost of my unit 20 years go, but this time I"d be replacing a high efficiency unit, i.e., very little reduction in my power usage - still rebates (from power company?) and taxes (federal income tax?).

I've been blogging a bit today on geoghermal, here and elsewhere, so I forget if you had any complaints.  Is the Climatemaster working well?  My Waterfurnace installer changed to Climatemaster so if I go back to him, and he did a great job on the installation 20 years ago, I'd have to move to Climatemaster.


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## pen (Dec 16, 2012)

Click on the "Start a Conversation" link under the person's name / avatar that you want to have a private conversation with to do so.


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## woodgeek (Dec 29, 2012)

Okay, I spent my morning looking at my options....

I had stuck with PECO for several years as they originally had a winter heat discount....7.5 cents including delivery. To make it greener, I enrolled in 'PECO Wind', which bumped it 2.5 cents....a few years back I was getting 10 cent (total) wind power and thought it a deal.

Now, PECO is still my delivery company, and charges me $7/mo + 5 cents for delivery. PECO Wind is ceasing to exist, and PECO base power looks like 9.5 cents, so conventional power runs 9.5+5 = 14.5 cents/kWh, completely flat across month, time of day or usage.

Looking for new green/wind options in PA, the portal is here: http://www.choosepawind.com/buy-pa-wind

Going over the options, I went with: http://citizenpower.com/GEC/index.html While the website makes them sound like dirty hippies...they were also the cheapest. My only choice is length of contract, I went with 24 mos since I can't be bothered to mess with this stuff too much.

The good news....my locked rate for 24 mo is 8.5 cents for 100% wind power (local, not REC). So my 'all in' will be 13.5 cents/kWh, or a whole cent cheaper than conventional PECO power. Since the phase out of my previous deal, my PECO Wind price has risen from 10 cents to 17.5 cents, so I will be saving 4 cents per kWh, or about $600 yr . Suppose I should have looked into this sooner .

Oh yeah, and I figured out my wind powered ASHP is delivering BTUs at a price equivalent to $1.80 gal oil. OR about half of what I can get it for discount around here (although with the tank and boiler scrapped I would have a hard time using it).


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## Jerry_NJ (Dec 29, 2012)

Woodgeek,

Sorry if I have already asked in the past... but my memory is so bad I can't even recall how to look 

Your numbers look interesting, ans very surprising. You are saying you are buying "green" (never mind the lost flocks of birds) electric power for less that the dirty oil (worse coal) generated electricity. It sounds like the old saying: "sounds too good to be true", not saying it isn't, but I haven't checked my case yet. Somehow good deals are never offered in my market.

Hum 4 cents and $600 says you use about 15,000 KWH a year. What are you heating with, your signature says "burning up to 1.9 cuf fe of wood" what an hour?

I think the JCP&L customer charge is low, less than $5 and the delivery is about what you quote, I do recall buying delivered power from under 15 cents, maybe close to 14 cents per KWH, depends son what Constellation energy is charging... which is always ove 10 cents. A energy cost of 8.5 cents is the lowest I've seen, even from whatever energy (coal mostly I think).

I'll take a look at your source, thanks,

EDIT:  I just looked closer, your source is "PA" not "NJ"  a substitution of NJ didn't return anything and I bet there are no wind sources in NJ, unless they are offshore.  As speculated above, no in my market.


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## woodgeek (Dec 29, 2012)

Jerry,

IIRC we talked about cheap wind power a few years back, when I was getting it for 10 cents/kWh (total) and you were incredulous then.  I am heating with a conventional split ASHP that I have tinkered with a bit, and get a SCOP I think ~2.25 ± 0.1.  My annual usage is ~3.5 MWh for base, 1.5 MWh for AC, 2 MWh for a HPWH and 8 MWh for space heating, totaling ~15MWh.  No combustion on site other than (recreational) wood-burning, biased towards really cold weekends, evenings and power outages.  Previously, a now-scrapped oil boiler provided space heat and DHW and cost an arm and a leg.

PA is a pioneer both for deregulation (started back in the 90s) and wind power (currently 900 MW capacity, or equivalent to a 300 MW plant running 24/7).  Wind economics are pretty good compared to conventional power, but are dominated by construction costs, and thus depend strongly on the cost of the debt/ financing model/ discount rate.  Most of the turbine owners nationwide also receive a 2.2 cent/kWh federal subsidy for the first 10 years of production, which makes it pretty easy and low risk to make money in the business (onshore).  This 2.2 cents for **new** projects is ending on the New Year.

So yes, it appears I can buy 100% local wind power on a 2 yr contract for 8.46 cents/kWh.  My local excelon provider charges me 9.5 cents now, and is supposed to increase to 10.5 cents next year (unclear).  There are other conventional providers in PA that can get close to 8.5, I think, haven't really looked.  My excelon provider has a lot of nukes, and so I expect that there are little guys out there undercutting them with cheap (also local) natural gas fueled megawatts. And no matter what I choose, PECO adds 5 cents/kWh + $7/mo for delivery.

If there's a catch...I'll let y'all know.


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## woodgeek (Dec 29, 2012)

IF you want to see where your conventional juice comes from, and how much CO2 is produced, try...

http://www.epa.gov/cleanenergy/energy-and-you/how-clean.html


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 29, 2012)

In any case utility produced power is a bargain and very hard to reproduce for the price SO FAR. If solar gets much better or wind more commonly available that may change the dynamic.


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## Jerry_NJ (Dec 29, 2012)

From what I learned on this thread Wind is subsidized 2.2 cents per KWH, that's a big 20%+ and paid for by you know who:  YOU.  As for Solar, don't hold your breath.  This is all more ethanol economics. 

I'm all for clean energy and that's hydro and nuclear for now.  JCP&L used to be about 50% nuclear.


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## BIGDADDY (Dec 30, 2012)

jwoair23 said:


> I have Duquesne Light as my "normal" supplier. I just recently switched to IGS Energy, they had a 12 year lock on the rate, no cancellation fee. It seems like a good deal overall, but I haven't had it kick in yet as I only did it a month ago. I think my next bill should reflect it.
> 
> I wasn't able to find anyone else I knew that had done it, for comparison's sake, so I am hoping for the best!




12 year or 12 month lock on rate?


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## BIGDADDY (Dec 30, 2012)

I have Dominion.

This may help you.


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## woodgeek (Dec 30, 2012)

Jerry_NJ said:


> Woodgeek,
> 
> I think the JCP&L customer charge is low, less than $5 and the delivery is about what you quote, I do recall buying delivered power from under 15 cents, maybe close to 14 cents per KWH, depends son what Constellation energy is charging... which is always ove 10 cents. A energy cost of 8.5 cents is the lowest I've seen, even from whatever energy (coal mostly I think).
> 
> ...


 
Google turned up this link... http://maketheswitchusa.com/nj/

It seems to think JCP&L costs 10.72 cents/kWh, and suggests "Commerce Energy" which offers a 12 mo contract at 9 cents, or a 15% reduction. An unknown is whether JCP&L charges you a cancellation fee for switching from them...I would think not but you would want to check/call them.

Looks like you CAN buy green power by paying a surcharge to Commerce, details here http://www.njcleanenergy.com/renewa...npower-choice-program/start-today/start-today

The cheapest one is 50% Wind and 50% hydro for a 2 cent surcharge. So, in principle you can get 'green' power for 0.3 cents/kWh more than you are nominally paying now.



Jerry_NJ said:


> From what I learned on this thread Wind is subsidized 2.2 cents per KWH, that's a big 20%+ and paid for by you know who: YOU. As for Solar, don't hold your breath. This is all more ethanol economics.
> 
> I'm all for clean energy and that's hydro and nuclear for now. JCP&L used to be about 50% nuclear.


 
But unlike ethanol, wind is significantly energy positive and not as hard on the environment as growing corn. And unlike solar, turbines can deliver power cheaper than many FF sources (whose prices are, ahem, also effectively subsidized)....unsubsidized grid parity for wind was reached in many (but not all) markets 10 years ago. If the 2.2 cent subsidy doesn't get renewed going forward, we will see if wind power will 'sink or swim' on its own.


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## Jerry_NJ (Dec 30, 2012)

Woodgeek,

Thanks your input is always helpful and interesting to me and others, I am sure.  Also: "(whose prices are, ahem, also effectively subsidized)." Amen!  And usually to the determent of the free market.  I am cheering for wind power to survive whatever the government involvement, but I remain an observer in my private practice, I can't even get up the energy to do some solar water heating - and even if just done the 9 months a year on doesn't have to protect against freezing temperatures one could easily recover the cost in a year or two, less if DIY.

But I diverge, again..  I got another electric power offer in the mail, it is connected to United Airlines, I can always use a few addition miles on my UA (once Continental) account.

Happy New Year


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## maverick06 (Dec 31, 2012)

ok, so I started the thread, so I can have the sidebar haha!
I just checked the link and it shows that for me, the power currently provided is 40 nuclear! Thats pretty cool. Did you also know that about 40% of all nuclear power provided is actually from burning old soviet nuclear weapons. There is very little press on this, it didnt want to be perceived as if the nuclear plants were bombs, just a few articles. The US bought them, reprocessed the fuel into commercial grade fuel, and provided them to the industry. I have no idea how the costs worked, probably all paid by the us govt. But to get rid of the russian's weapons, thats a pretty good deal. So think about that. My christmas tree is in front of me, burning 600 watts of power.  96 watts of which are from megatons that were aimed at where i work.

I think we won


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## Jerry_NJ (Dec 31, 2012)

Yep, and we decommissioned many more USA weapons than did the Russians, a policy we seem to still be following.  More interesting might be how much of the bomb decommissioned stuff producing electric power is from Russia and how much from USA weapons.  Whatever it cost us, better in our hands than on the world terrorist market.  From the Iran news I have concluded weapons grade nuclear fuel takes more processing, so what has to be done to bring it back to industry grade fuel - and where did the stuff taken out go?

Isn't it interesting the Russians were (are) yet making a profit on the "end" of the cold war, and still find it necessary to ban adoption of Russian orphans by USA families.... just another example of Russian/USA cooperation.  Much more of this and they'll end up winning.


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## woodgeek (Jan 1, 2013)

Jerry_NJ said:


> Yep, and we decommissioned many more USA weapons than did the Russians, a policy we seem to still be following. More interesting might be how much of the bomb decommissioned stuff producing electric power is from Russia and how much from USA weapons. Whatever it cost us, better in our hands than on the world terrorist market. From the Iran news I have concluded weapons grade nuclear fuel takes more processing, so what has to be done to bring it back to industry grade fuel - and where did the stuff taken out go?


 
For enriched Uranium...the stuff taken out is depleted uranium...to 'unprocess', you just mix it back in...dilute the enriched stuff with depleted or unprocessed, natural U.


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## maverick06 (Jan 1, 2013)

If you want to read the details, check out this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megatons_to_Megawatts_Program
The summary to date:
equivalent to 18,000 russian nuclear warheads have been eliminated
This is 50% of our nuclear power.


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## Laszlo (Feb 20, 2013)

woodgeek said:


> Looking for new green/wind options in PA, the portal is here: http://www.choosepawind.com/buy-pa-wind
> 
> Going over the options, I went with: http://citizenpower.com/GEC/index.html While the website makes them sound like dirty hippies...they were also the cheapest. My only choice is length of contract, I went with 24 mos since I can't be bothered to mess with this stuff too much.
> 
> The good news....my locked rate for 24 mo is 8.5 cents for 100% wind power (local, not REC). So my 'all in' will be 13.5 cents/kWh, or a whole cent cheaper than conventional PECO power. Since the phase out of my previous deal, my PECO Wind price has risen from 10 cents to 17.5 cents, so I will be saving 4 cents per kWh, or about $600 yr . Suppose I should have looked into this sooner .


Thanks for pointing them out to me. Much better find than what comes up on the PApowerSwitch site, both for long-term fixed prices, and for 100% wind. Plus they claim taxes are already included in their price, unlike some of the competition.

Any issues or surprises since your switch? I'm thinking of signing on for a 3-year fixed rate of 8.28¢/kWh (compared to PECO @ 8.69¢).


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## woodgeek (Feb 20, 2013)

I am yet to see the new contract in my bill....I think the switch happened last week, but I won't see that bill until march.


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## greg13 (Mar 3, 2013)

In NY They started allowing outside Energy suppliers a few years ago and from what I have seen and heard so far no one SAVES much money by switching providers and it turns into a major hassle when you try to switch back. The local TV stations have done many news segments on the subject.


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## johnny1720 (Mar 4, 2013)

greg13 said:


> In NY They started allowing outside Energy suppliers a few years ago and from what I have seen and heard so far no one SAVES much money by switching providers and it turns into a major hassle when you try to switch back. The local TV stations have done many news segments on the subject.


 
I changed almost 2 years ago, i got a report from the energy company last week.  They said I saved $32.00 in the last 12 months, IMHO not worth it but it has been a seem-less change for me and my family.


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## muncybob (Mar 7, 2013)

I have not saved much either, but we are not big users of electricity. I do consider a change when they make a special offer such as a $50 credit, etc. and there is no termnation fee.


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## Hearth Mistress (Mar 7, 2013)

My latest bill from Met-ed has a "compare other supplier rate" at .089.  Since we don't use a lot of electric, I've never even thought of looking.  We've been here just over 10 years and have ony had an electric bill over $100 a few times, either really cold pre-stove months or really hot AC mobths. We are on a "fixed" plan $78 a month and every 3 months they review our bill and change it accordingly.  Right now I pay $78 a month but only use about $55 so that extra money gets credited to my account and I can either leave it there, for higher months, like Summer when the AC is on, or get a refund. While this payment arrangement may not work for everyone, I don't mind it.


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## Redbarn (Mar 8, 2013)

Hearth Mistress said:


> My latest bill from Met-ed has a "compare other supplier rate" at .089.  Since we don't use a lot of electric, I've never even thought of looking.  We've been here just over 10 years and have ony had an electric bill over $100 a few times, either really cold pre-stove months or really hot AC mobths. We are on a "fixed" plan $78 a month and every 3 months they review our bill and change it accordingly.  Right now I pay $78 a month but only use about $55 so that extra money gets credited to my account and I can either leave it there, for higher months, like Summer when the AC is on, or get a refund. While this payment arrangement may not work for everyone, I don't mind it.



We switched from Met-Ed at 0.089 to Reliance at 0.069. Took about 30 minutes on-line and we fixed the rate for 1 year.

Everything else is the same as before. Same billing,etc..
We just pay less for the same product/service.
Not many things in life go down in price !


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## Hearth Mistress (Mar 8, 2013)

Redbarn said:


> We switched from Met-Ed at 0.089 to Reliance at 0.069. Took about 30 minutes on-line and we fixed the rate for 1 year.
> 
> Everything else is the same as before. Same billing,etc..
> We just pay less for the same product/service.
> Not many things in life go down in price !


I never heard of them, just googled it. No thanks, India has taken enough jobs out if the US. Unless there is another Reliance Energy, they are based in Mumbai.


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## Redbarn (Mar 9, 2013)

Hearth Mistress said:


> I never heard of them, just googled it. No thanks, India has taken enough jobs out if the US. Unless there is another Reliance Energy, they are based in Mumbai.



My mistake.
Reliant Energy
Houston, TX


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## Hearth Mistress (Mar 9, 2013)

Ok, just looked. you lucked out, not so much here.

The quote for my zip code is .879 for 12 months but that doesn't include the "distribution fees" that my current supplier will tack on to the bill for Reliant to use their infrastructure to get 3rd party electric to my house. Not sure what these fees are but being that close to what I'm paying now, it just doesn't seem worth it, especially since I'm sure after 12 months the "honey moon, thanks for switching" rate would go up so I'd be right back to looking around again. 

It was worth a look though, thanks for sharing.


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## woodgeek (Mar 9, 2013)

Hearth Mistress said:


> Ok, just looked. you lucked out, not so much here.
> 
> The quote for my zip code is .879 for 12 months but that doesn't include the "distribution fees" that my current supplier will tack on to the bill for Reliant to use their infrastructure to get 3rd party electric to my house. Not sure what these fees are but being that close to what I'm paying now, it just doesn't seem worth it, especially since I'm sure after 12 months the "honey moon, thanks for switching" rate would go up so I'd be right back to looking around again.
> 
> It was worth a look though, thanks for sharing.


 
HM--the distribution rate from MetEd should be broken out on your current bill. It should also have a 'price to compare' on it to allow you to, um, compare the generation prices.


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## woodgeek (Mar 9, 2013)

Ok, got my first electric bill that reflects my new contract. No surprises. PECO is charging me the same customer fee ($7.17 flat) and distribution fee (4.25 cents/kWh) as in my previous bill. Neglecting the customer fee, my price per kWh was 12.9 cents total in Jan, now it is 12.7. All as expected.

Feb is a high use month for me, 2700 kWh, so I saved a whopping $5.

But the new supplier is 100% PA wind, so I dropped the CO2 associated with last month's usage by >1 metric ton. 

As for price trends, the 24 mo contract I took in Dec is now priced 0.1 cents cheaper....I could have saved $7.50 last month instead of $5!


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## Redbarn (Mar 9, 2013)

woodgeek said:


> Ok, got my first electric bill that reflects my new contract. No surprises. PECO is charging me the same customer fee ($7.17 flat) and distribution fee (4.25 cents/kWh) as in my previous bill. Neglecting the customer fee, my price per kWh was 12.9 cents total in Jan, now it is 12.7. All as expected.
> 
> Feb is a high use month for me, 2700 kWh, so I saved a whopping $5.
> 
> ...



There seems to be a strong Zip code factor.

I pulled out our Met Ed Bill for February.
Customer charge was $8.11. Supplier fee $3.45 cents per kWh.
For 839 kWh of use at a saving of 2 cents per kWh,  we saved $16.78 in Feb.
Even if the price goes back up after the 12 month contract period ends, well worth the effort of an hour at most online.

We have multiple bills as we have a separate bill for our outbuildings.
So we have multiple saving.

The lower rates do make financial case for fitting solar panels to the barn less attractive but as the price of PV panels, microinverters and other Solar hardware continues to fall, it slightly eases the pain of waiting.


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## Hearth Mistress (Mar 9, 2013)

woodgeek said:


> HM--the distribution rate from MetEd should be broken out on your current bill. It should also have a 'price to compare' on it to allow you to, um, compare the generation prices.


The price to compare is .089 on my bill, so Without going back an looking at my bill, the Reliant .0879 rate, plus the distribution rate, which is a few cents, would mostly likely put me over what I pay now, so with Met-Ed I stay


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## woodgeek (Mar 9, 2013)

Hearth Mistress said:


> The price to compare is .089 on my bill, so Without going back an looking at my bill, the Reliant .0879 rate, plus the distribution rate, which is a few cents, would mostly likely put me over what I pay now, so with Met-Ed I stay


 
The 'price to compare' strips out the distribution charge for an 'apples to apples' comparison. The distribution charge is the same whether you buy from MetEd or not.

Your reliant rate doesn't look right. I looked up your options for your zipcode and MetEd at pappowerswitch:

http://www.papowerswitch.com/shop-for-electricity/shop-for-your-home/

and got a 7.6 cent quote from Reliant and a 6.9 cent quote from 'Washington Gas Energy Svcs', which would save you 1.3 or 2 cents/kWh net, equivalent to a 10 or 15% reduction of your current bill.


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## Redbarn (Mar 9, 2013)

Our March Bill arrived this morning.

The Reliant rate is $0.06889810 per kWh
The use of 8 decimal places amuses me  !

The Met Ed compare rate is $0.0887


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## woodgeek (Apr 11, 2013)

woodgeek said:


> Ok, got my first electric bill that reflects my new contract. No surprises. PECO is charging me the same customer fee ($7.17 flat) and distribution fee (4.25 cents/kWh) as in my previous bill. Neglecting the customer fee, my price per kWh was 12.9 cents total in Jan, now it is 12.7. All as expected.


 
New bill arrived, as expected from media reports, my PECO price to compare jumped a penny to 9.61 cents (i.e. not including delivery). My PA wind power (under 24 mo contract) is now 1.16 cents/kWh _cheaper_ than my conventional excelon power. With my thirsty HPs and all electric house, that saves me about $200 AND ~10 tons of CO2 per year.


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## Jerry_NJ (Apr 11, 2013)

Looks great.

I just switched (in progress) from Constellation power to ?? a United Airlines connected supplier.  I get 12,500 miles, about 1/2 a ticket, so that is worth about $200 on my next flight I don't have to buy.  I run a geothermal hp, that's my 20+ year contribution to lowering my electric bill and CO2.


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## woodgeek (Jun 8, 2013)

woodgeek said:


> New bill arrived, as expected from media reports, my PECO price to compare jumped a penny to 9.61 cents (i.e. not including delivery). My PA wind power (under 24 mo contract) is now 1.16 cents/kWh _cheaper_ than my conventional excelon power. With my thirsty HPs and all electric house, that saves me about $200 AND ~10 tons of CO2 per year.


 
PECO price structure has changed....they dropped their generation a penny (saving me nothing, but making them more competitive) and boosted their distribution by 2 cents.  The price of wind power has also climbed (for new customers), but my contract price is still 0.2 cents cheaper than PECO.  So, I got 2 mos of decent savings for switching ($40), but am still saving the CO2.  Mischief managed.


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## Laszlo (Jun 22, 2013)

woodgeek said:


> New bill arrived, as expected from media reports, my PECO price to compare jumped a penny to 9.61 cents (i.e. not including delivery). My PA wind power (under 24 mo contract) is now 1.16 cents/kWh _cheaper_ than my conventional excelon power. With my thirsty HPs and all electric house, that saves me about $200 AND ~10 tons of CO2 per year.


 


woodgeek said:


> PECO price structure has changed....they dropped their generation a penny (saving me nothing, but making them more competitive) and boosted their distribution by 2 cents. The price of wind power has also climbed (for new customers), but my contract price is still 0.2 cents cheaper than PECO. So, I got 2 mos of decent savings for switching ($40), but am still saving the CO2. Mischief managed.


 
Just got our second bill since our switch to wind. Looks like we lucked out by locking in 36 months at 8.28¢/kWh. We would have made the switch to wind power anyway, even if marginally more expensive--but I certainly won't complain that the last two months were our lowest electric bills in the last 6 years. 

While the online sign-up was very easy, I was annoyed with PA's requirement of a "16 day rule", which delayed our switch by another month. I submitted my switch request March 3, but apparently not soon enough to affect my March 19 meter reading. As a result, we got a taste of PECO's 9.61¢/kWh rate in April, and had to wait _47 days_ before starting to pay the reduced price.

But we saved $13.10 for May (1.33¢/kWh), and now with PECO's shift of costs from generation to distribution, only $3.19 in June. The real savings for us will come in winter with our heat pump in heavy use, and several years down the road when I bet PECO's prices will be much higher. For reference, when they started listing the "Price to Compare" on our bill in 2011, the generation cost was only 3.78¢/kWh...


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## woodgeek (Dec 26, 2014)

Ok, I dug through this old post to get info for my contract renewal.  After 30 mins of googling, I found that my current supplier (trieagle 'green eagle') was still cheapest for '100% PA windpower', and offered a discount (about 0.6 cents/kWh) to renewing customers.

That was the good news.  The bad news is that the new fixed rate is 10.1 cents/kWh for 36 mos, versus my previous rate of 8.5 cents for the last 24 mos.

Looks like the price is set by in-state RPS compliance RECs (which are mostly wind), whose costs have gone up $15 (per 1 MWh, or 1.5 cents/kWh) in the last 2 years in PA.  When I signed up in 12/2012, they only cost $1, now they are more like $16.  I guess they found their customers?

DOE page: http://apps3.eere.energy.gov/greenpower/markets/certificates.shtml?page=5

The same outfit sells wind power tied to national wind RECs that are still being priced at $1/MWh (0.1 cent/kWh).  No surprise, that power is about 1.5 cents cheaper.  I am happy to pay an extra penny to support my instate RE generators, and know they are feeding into my local grid, rather than a saturated (and thus ultra low price) REC market in west texas or iowa.

Bottom line, I went from 0.5-1 cent _cheaper_ than conventional/Excelon power to ~1 cent _more_.   Oh well, if Laszlo's PECO price trend above holds, I could still end up saving over the 3 year contract term.

-----------------------------------------------

While my PA windpower cost went up 10% relative to my contract 2 years ago (including distribution), in the last two years energy retrofits have dropped my BTU heating requirements by 25%, and DIY alterations to my HP controller should increase my SCOP by 25%.

In oil terms, my 2250 sq ft house would currently require ~500 gallons/yr at 4500 HDD65, and will instead use ~6000 kWh/yr of local windpower costing $900, or the equivalent of $1.80 per gallon HO.  Current prices are falling, but are currently $3/gal $2.40/gal in my area.  In addition, of course, we are saving ~6-7 tons of CO2 per year (or 13 tons/year relative to pre-retrofit oil usage)

In EV terms, my fuel cost to go 100 miles is now ~$4.50 with local wind power, versus a Prius getting a seasonal average 45 mpg at (current/local) $2.60 gasoline, which works out to $5.75 / 100miles.  So, our EV is saving $125 and roughly 3 tons of CO2/yr relative to a Prius (at 10k miles per year), which is why when they see a Prius on the road the kids like to point and say 'Look, a gas guzzler!'

And then when I feel too righteous, I fly to Hong Kong on business.


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## Jerry_NJ (Dec 26, 2014)

I continue to shop for the lowest, not cleanest cost.   I pay my "share" of CO2 minimization through heating efficiency (And I can still go for all new windows in myh 30 year old house).  Not worth looking the name up, but comparing JCP&L compare rate my guaranteed 10 cents a KWH for energy was costing me a ewe bucks over the JCP&L rate so I call JCP&L and told them to switch me back to them.  There was not fee, indeed, I then got a telephone call from the 3rd party offering me a $50 check and a continued 10 cent guarantee.  I took it, no look at the cost of gas (oil? and Natural gas too?) go down, but I lost again, but my 3rd party agreements (yes I got the $50 check) has no cancellation fee.

In early November I replaced my 21 year old Water Furnace with a new same brand.  I took the hot water option and can say it has even in this mild NJ Nov/Dec been producing at least 95% of my hot water. My hot water heater is electric, resistive.  The Water Furnace (geothermal, or ground sourced) runs mostly in Stage I with an effective COP of about 4.5, do there I go again, using 22% as much dirty electricity to heat water as resistive hot water.  Again, think I mentioned before, I think I'm getting a high percentage of electricity from nuclear.  Yes, the supplier has told me but "in one eye, out the other" in my aging mind.


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## woodgeek (Dec 26, 2014)

The best I found in NJ with this site: http://www.maketheswitchusa.com/energy-company-plans/nj

was a 10.06 cent/kWh on a fixed 36 mo contract.  They think your price to compare at JCP&L is 10.3 cents, so might save you a measly $30/year if your current rate stayed unchanged.   But you would be locked in by a $125 cancellation fee.

But if you were worried your rates would skyrocket, it would be good insurance.


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## Laszlo (Dec 26, 2014)

Here's an update on PECO's pricing month-to-month. Now including the distribution charges, which add on 4-6¢/kWh, and is the only portion of variable pricing we're currently subject to. Through the end of 2012 we had two distribution rates due to a Residential Heating discount that's no longer in place. If the "Electric Off-Peak Service" distribution rate is the regular charge, then I have the numbers (except for June 2011) to fill them in going further back. 

Things look pretty stable for now, without the dramatic doubling seen in the first two years of PtC reporting. But even so, feeling pretty good about our fixed 8.28¢ generation rate. It was only _very _slightly undercut for 3 months this Fall, but usually rides comfortably below PECO's price to compare. 

That's good to know that TriEagle offers discounts to continuing customers. When we're up for renewal, I think we'll opt for the lower-priced National Wind plan, as I don't particularly care if the wind power credit is earned in-state if it's more cost-effective to develop elsewhere.


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## Laszlo (Mar 9, 2015)

To anyone looking to switch, Green Energy Collaborative is now offering 100% wind power at the 3-year fixed price of 8.06¢ per kWh. That's the lowest I've seen them offer in the past two years (when I signed up at 8.28¢), and PECO's price hasn't been that low since _2012!_ PECO's current price is 9.07¢, so if you switch you'll save a full penny per kWh today, and likely more in future months when PECO decides to raise rates again.


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## woodgeek (Mar 9, 2015)

Cool.  I saw that price for wind RECs, but the cheapest PA wind RECs were a penny more. 

In my limited research, there is a lot of stranded or nearly stranded wind in West Texas, and their RECs are going for a song.  RECs in other states seems to be 'finding a price'.


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## Jerry_NJ (Mar 9, 2015)

Well, being more economic driven that green driven, that price is one I'd take...but in NJ, parent company in OH, I don't think I have access to the great offer in PA... I live less than 30 miles (estimate as the crow flies) from the PA border. 

So for now I satisfy my attention to both matters with a new Series 5 Water Furnace Geothermal Heat Pump... my second, the first lasted 21 years and was replaced as a precaution, not because it failed.


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## Laszlo (Mar 28, 2015)

Also limited research, but it seems Texas legislators and public planners have caught on to the wind potential out in west Texas, and have put in place a forward-thinking “if-you-build-it, they-will-come” approach to transmission lines. A 2005 law ordered the PUC to establish Competitive Renewable Energy Zones (CREZ), where lines are built from the best wind sites out to the demand centers in the eastern part of the state. Texas actually has a significant advantage in this regard--for instance, if Kansas wind farms wanted to find transmission paths to big cities, they'd have to negotiate for lines across several different states, which introduces more hurdles and bureaucratic delays. Texas has both supply and demand in-state, and a grid that's more separate from its neighbors than other states. That allows for a more streamlined approach, with less haggling over cost-sharing.

Even with the newly built 18,500 MW of transmission capacity, I'm sure there will be more imbalances as wind producers push to use it all. But if they start overbuilding, the Texas grid is well-positioned to be responsive in rectifying saturated lines and in laying the groundwork to prepare for future projects.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/24/b...ed-for-wind-power-and-more-farms-plug-in.html
http://www.renewableenergyworld.com...as-wind-boosted-with-improved-public-planning


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## Laszlo (Dec 8, 2015)

Laszlo said:


> To anyone looking to switch, Green Energy Collaborative is now offering 100% wind power at the 3-year fixed price of 8.06¢ per kWh. That's the lowest I've seen them offer in the past two years (when I signed up at 8.28¢), and PECO's price hasn't been that low since _2012!_ PECO's current price is 9.07¢, so if you switch you'll save a full penny per kWh today, and likely more in future months when PECO decides to raise rates again.



New all-time low price of 7.66¢ per kWh, fixed for 3 years, compared to PECO which is now at 8.49¢ per kWh.


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 9, 2015)

I was paying 6.9c for a few years but now  the best deal in my area is 7.6c   PPL rate are always higher as dont really want the generation business , they sold many of their generating stations,they do much better with their monopoly on the poles and wires and meters. I think they are preparing for the day when residential rooftop solar panels will take over residential power needs and this way they can still nick you for grid tie in.


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