# PE Pacific Insert Not Bullet-Proof



## Hogwildz (Aug 18, 2009)

Yes I have oil forced air furnace that used to be the primary, but once insert was installed, I put the oil on back up status, but always kept it runnable.
Had to do a serious service on it last year to get it running again. Did it myself and saved a few hundred bucks.
It works good, but stinks, and is too dry LOL. I miss the wood smell. And the heating of everything, rather than just heating the air.
Haven't really needed heat yet. I might have to move the oil furnace to the Starting position, and put the Summit on injured reserve till I work this out with PE or not.
Its all good, I have heat if needed. BUT WANT WOOD HEAT!! I'm on the road tomorrow, work this past couple weeks picked up. But I plan on taking Corie's number from PE and calling him while on the road.
I am kinda glad I don't have to deal with a distributor, and the dealer was more than glad to pass it along to PE ASAP.


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## greythorn3 (Aug 18, 2009)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> Yes I have oil forced air furnace that used to be the primary, but once insert was installed, I put the oil on back up status, but always kept it runnable.
> Had to do a serious service on it last year to get it running again. Did it myself and saved a few hundred bucks.
> It works good, but stinks, and is too dry LOL. I miss the wood smell. And the heating of everything, rather than just heating the air.
> Haven't really needed heat yet. I might have to move the oil furnace to the Starting position, and put the Summit on injured reserve till I work this out with PE or not.
> ...



Keep your head up! you will once again heat with wood feral swine!

Ray


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## Sisu (Sep 28, 2009)

Hi Everyone,

I am new to the forum, but I have been lurking for a while.  I have a PE Pacific Insert that I bought new in 2005.   It has been operated for four winters now and is operated 24/7 for up to 6 months during the fall/winter/spring season, since I use it as the primary heat source in my house.  I have been very happy with the stove.

This year when I went to clean the chimney, I noticed that the baffle had a crack in it.  I went to my local dealer with the baffle only to find out that they had recently closed.  So I contacted the head office for the dealership, who said that they will replace the baffle but stated that the stove may have been over-fired.  This baffle warped after the first winter and the local dealer at that time stated that that is common and nothing to worry about.  

However, after the baffle issue, I took the firebricks, side rails and insulation, and vacuumed the firebox.  That is when I noticed that there were cracked welds in three locations of the firebox.  The first is in the top left (facing the stove) rim that contacts the door gasket.  The second is at the top left (facing the stove) just inside the stove opening.  The third is at the right top (facing the stove) just inside the stove opening.  

I am now wondering what to do.  Are these cracks a result of poor welds and/or over-firing.  As I stated before, it does see a lot of use, but would that cause these cracks?  I am not aware of over-firing the stove, but the baffle has glowed on occasion.  Until now I have operated it without any temperature gauges, so I am not aware to the temperature ranges that it has been operated at.  To remedy this, I have now bought two magnetic ones now, as per Hogwildz configuration, to go over the door frame.

I am weary that if I were to go to the dealer and try to pursue the limited lifetime warranty for the firebox, that they would just say that it has been over-fired, and the warranty is null and void.  Should I go to the dealer?  Should I go directly to PE in regard to this?  I can reweld the cracks myself, which would be probably be faster, but would cause any issues?

I am just wondering if anyone else has had similar issues and/or opinions of what I should do.  Do I have a leg to stand on in pursuing the warranty?


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## BrotherBart (Sep 28, 2009)

Go to the dealer. If no satisfaction go directly to PE. If you don't you are left with a cracked stove. If they say no you are left with a cracked stove. 

Their overfire paragraph in the manual makes me crazy:

"DO NOT OVERFIRE THIS HEATER: Attempts to
achieve heat output rates that exceed heater design
specifications can result in permanent damage to the
heater and chimney."

With no indication whatsoever what the design specification is.


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## Sisu (Sep 28, 2009)

That is true!  There is no harm in trying.  But maybe I should wait to get my new baffle first from the dealership head office first and then pursue it.  Unfortunately, cold weather is on its way and this may be a long process.

I love the stove, but I know what you mean by the PE manual instructions in regard to over-firing.  It says don't do it, yet it doesn't provide any parameters that would allow you to gauge what constitutes over-firing.  The local dealer wasn't too helpful either.  I did ask in the past about the glowing baffle/warpage/possible overfiring etc. and they stated that everything should be fine.  I wonder if the door rim cracked first, which might have contributed to it running hotter.

I just feel disappointed that a four year old stove would be in this condition.


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## Hogwildz (Sep 29, 2009)

I'm coming up on season 4 with my Summit Insert. Inspect it every year. The baffles all warp or sag to a degree. But no cracks here.
It is covered under warranty so not a big issue. No cracks in the opening here. Without a thermo, how do you gauge or even get a feel for what the stove is running at or performing at?
I don't use the temp markings so much for exact temps, as I use them for a general basis for knowing where she likes to run at, and if its constant and such. Just to have a feel if its doing its normal thing, or operating different than usual. There may be a chance you over fired, maybe you didn't. Ever see the steel body, top or outlet or liner glowing? Baffle glowing is not all that uncommon, but if the body did, that ain't good.
Put the whole thin in for warranty, and see what happens. These things are workhorses & tanks, but contrary to popular they are not indestructible.


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## Sisu (Sep 29, 2009)

Thank you for your replies.  I contacted the dealership headquarters today in regard to the cracks in the firebox.  The person (who I have been dealing with since the baffle issue) said immediately that the cause is over-firing.  He stated that PE has only ever received a total of 6 fireboxes returned, since the start of their operation.  However, he had not yet seen the photos. 

The contact also told me that the crack in the baffle is not a crack.  He stated his boss told him it is a seam?!   When I bought the stove, the baffle did not have any lines in that area.  He did however reaffirm that I will be getting a new baffle.

In the end, he also asked me to email the photos and he will see what he can do but stated that it might be easier for me to contact the manufacturer directly.  I am not sure what will happen, but I can only hope that things happen somewhat quickly as the cold weather is approaching.

I have run the unit up until now without any temperature gauge.  Past operation has been based upon visual observation, sound, and feel.  Cold starts up involved getting a good fire going with the air control on High and then dialing it down Low.  If the secondary burn died out quickly then the air control would be opened up again for a little while longer.  Once things get going, the air control is usually just less than a quarter inch left of Low.  

I have heated with wood for my whole life.  Mind you this is my first Pacific Energy stove and my first EPA rated stove.  I just bought the temperature gauges a few weeks ago after reading your (Hogwildz) posts which sparked my curiousity of how hot my stove runs.  However, since PE has not divulged any information on running temps, I think it is difficult gauging over-firing vs normal operating temps even with a thermometer.  As you know, the stove can run pretty hot.  That said, I still think you have a great idea.  I just wish the instructions were more forthcoming with temperature numbers and more details.

I believe the stove has been operated in accordance with the manufacturer's instruction.  As I stated before, this stove will run 24/7 up to 6 months, so it hasn't been babied.  During extended burn periods, the baffle has glowed and the side rails occasionally.  Other glowing parts have not been observed, however the stove is in our basement and is not being constantly observed during overnight and daytime burns.  The local dealership (that is now closed) stated that glowing baffles, side rails, and even a little cherry red on the top was fine.  

The manufacturer's instructions even states "*When burning at a slow rate for extended periods, occasionally maintain a strong fire under supervision for a couple of hours to relieve firebox and chimney deposits as well as any of the deposits on the glass."* which I have done occasionally, resulting in the glowing side rails.  But, as BrotherBart stated, the instructions are frustrating in their lack of details.  Neither "over-firing" nor "strong fire" (or what constitutes either) are defined to assist the operator.  

It is possible that the crack at the door rim happened first, allowing air in and causing it to burn hotter than normal.  The other cracks are in the side support square stock steel welds and there are no external cracks in the firebox (other than the door rim).  I have noticed since installation the air control set fully on Low does not kill the fire.  I also asked the local dealership about that observation and they also stated that it was normal. 

Is there evidence (other than cracked welds) that would show overfiring?  The side rails are in good shape and are not bent or warped.  The rest of the stove seems to be in good shape.  The door is fine and so is the door gasket.  The insulation on the side rails show some wear, but that probably should be expected after being hot for almost the two years of burn time.

I understand that all stoves have limitations.  I just wish that these limits were better defined and I hope that I am not up the creek with a cracked stove.  Any information, tips, experiences with PE etc. is most appreciated.  I will keep you posted on any future developments.


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## Hogwildz (Sep 29, 2009)

Worse case scenario, get the new baffle, and weld the cracks if PE balks. I agree with the lack of definitions, many stove manufacturers are reluctant to state in details what over firing is.
Check the top of the stove itself for any warping. I usually take my surround & grilles off and use a flashlight to check the outer edges/corners of the stove.
Baffle & rail glow is normal in my book, the top glowing is not. Not saying yours did, just saying the selling dealer might have stretched the truth a lil.
If those welds are correctly ground out and rewelded, it should be fine. You won't totally kill the fire and that is normal. I know mine must have the air setting all the way to low once she is up to temp.
Anything less makes her run hotter. I also had control issues when the door seal was not sealing due to door needing adjustment when I first bought it. I have since learned that the door is not adjusted at factory, and many need user adjustment after install. You may want to check the door with the dollar bill test just to rule that out. Keep us posted.

BTW, that aint no seam, that baffle pc on mine looks like it wraps up from the bottom, across the front, bends over top and then stops.
Might try for a new baffle myself next summer.


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## Sisu (Sep 29, 2009)

I have inspected all the accessible areas on the exterior by taking out the surround and grill, like you suggested.  The top seems to be fine.  No warpage or any other deformation.  Same with the exterior sides of the firebox.  The exterior welds all seem to be intact.  

Yes both dealerships seemed to have a mix of good and bad information.  I agree that the baffle in that area is a single sheet of ss with 90 degree bends.  I was pretty suprised when he told me that it was a seam.  I don't know what they were thinking?!  When I first approached him about the baffle, he didn't even know about the lifetime warranty and tried to tell me I probably didn't have the ss baffle.  I don't have a lot of confidence in them anymore.  

I did do the dollar bill test.  It actually was a $20, since the dollar bill doesn't exist anymore in Canada.  Everything seems tight as a drum.  I did have to reglue part of the gasket last year, as it was starting to come off the door.  Which is what typically would expect as maintenance after four seasons.  The cracked welds are not.

Did you take any pictures from this season's maintenance?  I would be curious to see the condition of your baffle, firebox, firebricks, insulation, etc. for comparison.  It sounds like you have ran your stove almost as much as mine.


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## Hogwildz (Sep 30, 2009)

I took some, don't think any of the areas your experiencing problems in.
I did take lots of when I changed the blower motor. At some point, I might get my own lazy ass to make a wiki about it, for any others that come to that need.
I'll post what I have. Some should show the brick etc.


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## BrotherBart (Sep 30, 2009)

So what happened with the blower Hog?


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## Hogwildz (Sep 30, 2009)

More photos, Ill post ehat I find, then to hell with it, Ill take some of your problem areas.


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## Hogwildz (Sep 30, 2009)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> So what happened with the blower Hog?


It was operating, but one day it ran slow on fast dial, then it wouldn't get to speed. Then just hummed. The next day was fine from then on.
It was dirty as hell cause I never cleaned it. Lack of maintenance on my part is what I'll attest it to this time.
I think it may be ok after I clean it. But replaced the motor/fan assy anyways. It was much easier than I thought. Especially since I thought the insert would have to be pulled out to do the change.
But I managed fairly easy with it left in place. I have read others only getting 3 or 4 years out of the motors. Might be due to lack of cleaning, or maybe they just suck and only last that long.
They are not made by PE but rather by Fasco I think it is. No biggie, since now I know it is easier than expected to replace.


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## Hogwildz (Sep 30, 2009)

Yet more photos, gotta type stuff or it wont post.
These are from last years cleaning.


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## Hogwildz (Sep 30, 2009)

More from last year's cleaning............
Its known I run mine fairly hard. 24/7 in season. But I feel I don't go nuts.
I know others have run theirs harder.


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## Hogwildz (Sep 30, 2009)

Well glad I looked again to take some pics. Seems I have same problems. Se photos.
Front upper inner door opening corners both cracked. And mine extended to the outer shell.
Also looks like a few other cracks, some I cant tell if its the edge of the weld, but there is reason for concern now. Baffle isn't cracked but have your other problems.
Guess I'll be calling my dealer also. Worse comes to worse, my neighbor is a welder for the steelworkers union. I'll have him repair if need be.
My faith in PE just sank quite a bit. Now it will depend on how well they back their warranty.


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## Hogwildz (Sep 30, 2009)

Oh well, more crap to post , uggg ugggg


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## Sisu (Sep 30, 2009)

I am sorry to hear about that Hog!  It gives you sort of a sick feeling in the pit of the stomach.  It appears that the issues seem very similar.  Similar cracks in the same general locations.  If anyone else reading this runs a PE stove or insert I would encourage them to inspect these areas too.  Let us know what you find.

I have sent my photos to the dealership and they have apparently sent them to PE, so now I am just waiting to hear back.  I agree with you, my loyalty to the company is now dependant on how they respond.

Like you said Hog, I too run mine fairly hard.  24/7 for almost all of the fall/winter/spring seasons.  But there should be a difference between running hard and overfiring.  It is a wood stove insert.  It is not for decoration (even though it looks nice) and is meant to have a fire in it and produce heat.

Are you going to still run yours as is or shut it down for now?  The cracks along the upper door openings are the biggest concerns, since they are allowing air to pass into the firebox and could allow for hotter fires.  I am not running mine now and took the baffle, bricks etc out.  It is going to be +3 degrees Celsius (37.4 Fahrenheit) tonight.


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## BrotherBart (Sep 30, 2009)

When you talk to these guys about warranty and they claim that any cracking is from overfiring remember to ask them just what the heck else would be a defect that would be covered in that lifetime warranty on the firebox but cracks?


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## begreen (Sep 30, 2009)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> BrotherBart said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Did you get the fan motor from Grainger? I have found that I can extend the life of these motors by carefully drilling a hole into the felt wicks on the shaft bearings. Cleaning helps, but after a couple/few years the bearings start running dry. If you can get oil to the felt and saturate it before the bearings start to dry out, the motor will work last much longer.


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## madrone (Sep 30, 2009)

I'm not a certified weld inspector, but I've been welding for years and those look like they could be bad welds to me. The baffle crack looks like a classic case of poor weld penetration. When the weld is ground down, it may appear to be fine, but any stress just pops it apart. I'm having a hard time seeing exactly what's going on with the others, but it appears that there are cracks right next to the other welds, which are examples of stress in the heat affected zone. Once again, I'm not an expert, but I'd be inclined to say those are not from overfiring.


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## Hogwildz (Sep 30, 2009)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Hogwildz said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No, I got it online, and it was pretty reasonable. I bopught the whole assembly housing & all, but just changed the motor. They sell just the motor also, but don't think it comes with the brackets on it.
I kep the olf one, will clean it up and see if I can drill that hole and oil the felt. I'm keeping it as back up.


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## Hogwildz (Sep 30, 2009)

madrone said:
			
		

> I'm not a certified weld inspector, but I've been welding for years and those look like they could be bad welds to me. The baffle crack looks like a classic case of poor weld penetration. When the weld is ground down, it may appear to be fine, but any stress just pops it apart. I'm having a hard time seeing exactly what's going on with the others, but it appears that there are cracks right next to the other welds, which are examples of stress in the heat affected zone. Once again, I'm not an expert, but I'd be inclined to say those are not from overfiring.



BB & Madrone. I agree. I did some welding when I worked for Budd trailers. I am no pro, nor certified. But the guys that were teaching me were.
I was always taught, a proper weld was much stronger than thew steel surrounding it. And if the weld broke or cracked, it was a bad weld. If the metal adjacent to it tore or broke, the weld was good, and that particular failure, would also prove a good weld. The insert never glowed, not even close. The baffle did on occasion & the baffle rails, but never the face, top, sides outlet, liner etc. I ain't a pro but can tell the face cracks are extensions from the inner door opening corner cracks. Bad enough now face welding is going to make it look like crap, guess they can be ground flat after properly welded. Then I'll have to repaint at least the front of the insert. Hmmmmmm maybe Honey brown?????  Trying to keep my head, but the knot in my stomach, thew creeping in cold weather & the worry is just driving me nuts.

Worst case scenario, I have 2 options if PE shafts me:
1. Neighbor is a Ironworkers Union welder. I'll pay, barter, beg him to come clean & reweld properly. Hoping he has portable set up and can do it right where it sits.
2. Pull the Summit, and slide in the Summers Heat. HOLD YOUR TONGUE BART!! But yes the option is being contemplated.
All I know is one or the other will be heating this place this winter.
 I don't even care if they give me a new insert or not, I will be just as happy for them to foot the tab of the welding & maybe a can of paint, oh and maybe a new baffle too.  Saggy baffle


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## stoveguy2esw (Sep 30, 2009)

at a glance it looks like the hull of the stove has cracked probably due to displacement from the busted welds (doesnt look like enough penetration there) in the doorframe corner. im no PE expert but i know stoves, if the weld in the doorframe had held the cracks outside the doorframe on the face of the stove(in last set of photos) would not be there.


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## BrotherBart (Sep 30, 2009)

stoveguy2esw said:
			
		

> at a glance it looks like the hull of the stove has cracked probably due to displacement from the busted welds (doesnt look like enough penetration there) in the doorframe corner. im no PE expert but i know stoves, if the weld in the doorframe had held the cracks outside the doorframe on the face of the stove(in last set of photos) would not be there.



And the front of the stove is the coolest part with the primary intake and airwash. I would be trying to clean off some of the crud in the crevices where the top plate meets the stove body and looking for a dye penetrate kit. Maybe Hogs welder neighbor has access to one.

When I busted the Sierra of the same gauge steel and construction a weld popped in the top back of the firebox and the front of the stove body never showed a sign. 900 to 1,000 degrees burns killed it.

Rest Mike. The 30 has never seen over 700 and that was just once. I learned my lesson.


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## greythorn3 (Sep 30, 2009)

you might want to drill stop the cracks before they get anyworse if they dont cover it before you buddy welds them up. 


Ray


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## begreen (Oct 1, 2009)

Sisu said:
			
		

> Like you said Hog, I too run mine fairly hard.  24/7 for almost all of the fall/winter/spring seasons.  But there should be a difference between running hard and overfiring.  It is a wood stove insert.  It is not for decoration (even though it looks nice) and is meant to have a fire in it and produce heat.
> 
> Are you going to still run yours as is or shut it down for now?  The cracks along the upper door openings are the biggest concerns, since they are allowing air to pass into the firebox and could allow for hotter fires.  I am not running mine now and took the baffle, bricks etc out.  It is going to be +3 degrees Celsius (37.4 Fahrenheit) tonight.



24/7 running of a wood stove should not be considered running it hard. You might pass on to your respective dealers that there are a few hundred eyeballs watching this issue right now. The only time I have seen my stove get over comfortable hot temps is when the EBT fed a full fuel load with more air than it needed at full secondary burn. That is why my EBT hole is now plugged and out of operation.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 1, 2009)

If these manufacturers know what stove body temp will break their freakin stoves then they need to tell the buyer straight out. They have the labs and the test results. Plain and simple. Hell, I use the advice from the only two that tell ya not to burn over 700. I figure they buy their steel and welding rods from the same place the guys that built my stove buy theirs from.


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## rob bennett (Oct 1, 2009)

Is there an over firing temp listed in the manual?  If not then then I think you are ok saying that you never over fired it according to the instructions.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 1, 2009)

Burning Sensation said:
			
		

> Is there an over firing temp listed in the manual?  If not then then I think you are ok saying that you never over fired it according to the instructions.



There isn't one in your PE manual. And yes, there isn't a small claims court judge in the country that would not find that warranty ambiguous due to no temps in the manual.


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## stoveguy2esw (Oct 1, 2009)

not looking to get rotten fruit thrown at me but , here we go...

without a standardized way of measuring the stoves temperature under controlled conditions where do you read temps and with what device?  personally i believe stoves (at least steel ones im not as familiar with cast or stone) should be kept below 700F  at its hottest point (hottest surface on the stove you can find) most steel stoves should be able to handle more than that in short terms and infrequently, but when you get to cruising above 700 you are risking damage to the stove. i agree with the poster who stated that the operators manual should give an idea of safe cruising temps for the stove preferrably with recommendations on where to read them and with what kind of device. i do lobby for this whenever i can bend an ear even in my own shop finding a reliable  location wouldnt be hard to do for most manufacturers but finding a standardized device to measure with is the harder part.

BB i know you arent a risk to bust that 30, you probably could do it , but i doubt you would push it that hard.


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## branchburner (Oct 1, 2009)

When the definition of "overfiring" is left so vague, matters are made worse by conflicting opinions and advice from manufacturers, stove shops, chimney sweeps, inlaws, etc.  Some of the VC stories make it sound like customers were almost being instructed to overfire. Unfortunately, not everyone with a stove is comparing notes with their friends on hearth.com. I would imagine a large number of folks are unaware if they've ever overfired their stove. Except for the small sampling posted here, it's hard to know how many overfiring issues arise with the various manufacturers.

As to the warranty, the company is not going to ask what temps you ran your stove at; they are going to look at the stove, and that is the moment they will define "overfiring" for you. This forum is a great place to see who will stand behind their stoves in an iffy situation. It seems the response from Travis has been pretty impressive on the last few Lopi issues that have come up here.


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## CK-1 (Oct 1, 2009)

What does "Limited Lifetime" mean anyway?


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## roselaker (Oct 1, 2009)

Wow! I have been lurking for a week or so, reading and learning a lot. I grew up with wood heat and after reading of the success with the summit's, I went and bought a Summit Classic "on sale" just yesterday (to replace the dying pellet stove that came with the house).  Now I am all excited and impatiently waiting for it to be delivered on Thursday and reading of this new issue about possible bad welds. This is so discouraging...  I am going to take pictures of every weld I can see on this stove before I fire it up. I'm no professional welder, but I have welded a bit, and can recognize bad welds. (my instructor showed me how.)  :gulp:  I think these pictures may come in handy depending on what the welds look like when new. Oh, and I have read in other posts here about the EBT flapper getting stuck on other summits, hmmm... seems like this could result in a VERY hot burn at no fault of the owner. I will post the pics if they are of use, and continue to watch and see...  Thanks for all the insight that you fellow burners take the time to share.


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## Sisu (Oct 2, 2009)

I just wanted to thank everyone for their support, thoughts, and knowledgeable opinions.  It is great to have some experienced welders comment on the welds. 

Here is an update as to where I am right now with my claim.  I called the dealership contact today.  He stated that he has forwarded my claim (along with the photos I sent him) to PE and is waiting to hear back from them.  I had a bit of a chat how I am feeling a bit frustrated about this whole thing.  He was sort of eluding that PE might make the claim it was overfired (all based on that the baffle and firebox welds cracked) by reaching temps above what the stove was rated for.  Then he said that I didn’t use a thermometer to gauge the heat being produced.  He also said that he didn’t think that anyone has ever returned a firebox to PE (in our previous conversation he said he thought only six had ever been returned) in the history of PE. 

That is when I asked him “didn’t you tell me in our last conversation that you stated that the "baffle crack" was only a seam”?  I also asked him what exactly were the requirements/parameters for overfiring etc., and what are the temperatures one should not exceed?!  I also asked him to tell me where in the instructions does it require or even suggest the use of a thermometer and where should it be placed?!  That’s when he started to backpeddle like crazy and stated that he wasn’t suggesting anything and that these are the things that PE will likely ask questions about. 

He did state that this process could take weeks, which is a long time without woodheat.  So now I am left waiting to what response PE will give me.  The gas furnace is now running and I am not looking forward to the gas bill.  Especially since my firewood is free (other than my time, labour, and gas for the saw) and is just sitting here in the woodpile instead of burning in the stove.


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## Nonprophet (Oct 2, 2009)

With these stoves costing thousands of dollars, it's easy to see where both manufacturers and customers are nervous about getting stuck with expensive repairs or, worse yet, irreparable damage......

Rumor has it that some high-end electronics (like expensive digital cameras) have built-in accelerometers in them that will tell the service center if any warranty claim is due to a camera drop instead of a faulty component. You'd think that stove manufacturers would be able to install a similar "sacrificial metal" strip that would offer definitive proof of over-firing by changing color, crumbling, etc.  Like others have said, it seems ludicrous that manufacturers would warn against over-firing without specifying what that actually means........

I will say that I read these forums often, and I pay VERY close attention to which stove manufacturers take care of their customers by standing behind their products. I will be very interested to see how PE follows up on this case as they are one of the manufacturers on my "might like to buy from" list.


NP


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## BrotherBart (Oct 2, 2009)

If they deny the warranty claim, take them to court There is nothing in the PE warranty or manual that could ever win.

Not to mention that it would be cheaper for them to replace your insert than to fight it in court.


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## Hogwildz (Oct 2, 2009)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> If they deny the warranty claim, take them to court There is nothing in the PE warranty or manual that could ever win.
> 
> Not to mention that it would be cheaper for them to replace your insert than to fight it in court.



Is that even realistic. What kind of suit? Small claims?
And do you really think they will come down from Canad to attend? Or would they hire a local lawyer.
I am going to try and get to taking better photos and go down to the PE dealer I bought mine from either tomorrow or Saturday.
I will take the manual and have them show me the over fire warning & temp or lack of in the manual.
I bet the warranty and manual change if a few more of these come around. I doubt it will be to the consumers advantage of course.
But until I get word back, I want to try and give them the benefit of the doubt. I love the insert, but want it made right.


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## begreen (Oct 2, 2009)

Considering that you put thermometer(s) on the stove indicates that you have been watching temps and have at least a mental record of what the stove has been running at. If PE chose to challenge that, it would have to produce some credible evidence which from my armchair, would appear to be guessing as compared to your actual record.

Bad welds and assembly happen to all stoves at some times. I'm hoping PE wants to understand the issue and resolve it soon.


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## greythorn3 (Oct 2, 2009)

ya right, in court the one with the most $ usually wins. ;(


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## madison (Oct 2, 2009)

My observations: After one yr with a T6, I could not find any cracks in welds.  My wife and I both like the type of heat and ease of control of the unit and are so far satisfied with our purchase.  Stove top temp monitored, only exceeded 700 once while observing the EBT (see #4 below).

I will add that I have begun to question the QA/QC at PE,  I have had a few issues that seem to indicate that there is either a lax or non existent quality control inspection process.  More than a couple times while trying to diagnose and repair some issues, i would chuckle to myself that my unit must have been made after a "BC bud" lunch break.

A few of my posts from the last yr for illustrations regarding the QA/QC:

1. Loose and stripped ash chute bolt : https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/23299/
2. Boost manifold (replaced under warranty by PE) : https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/30126/
3. Door fit :  Seems to be an issue with communication between Mfg, Dealer/installers and owners: it seems most users/owners end up refitting them.  Many links on this subject.
4.  EBT like #3 above, but it sounds like some users are disabling this device.  Post#8  https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/34532/#366508

I will again add that we like the T6, and PE did respond to the one warranty issue we did persue (#2), the boost manifold was drop shipped to my residence.

My dealer did elaborate/complain that warranty work is a pain with "all woodstove mfg's" in that the dealer must initially eat the costs and that their (dealers) labor for the warranty work is not compensated.   I cannot attest to the truth of this statement, but it certainly seems to fit the picture when we read about dealers trying to dodge and avoid warranty work.


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## Sisu (Oct 2, 2009)

I agree there could be some qa/qc issues with PE.  When I initially bought my stove in 2005, I had to replace the door twice via the local dealer.  I had gone all out and had ordered the brushed nickel radiant door!  Out of the crate I noticed that the plating was bubbled in some areas (delaminated from the steel).  The replacement that was given to me had the same problem.  Finally the third door was (and is still) fine.  I didn't think too much about it at the time because the replacement process was seamless and quick.  

I really think Branchburner said it well stating "When the definition of “overfiring” is left so vague, matters are made worse by conflicting opinions and advice from manufacturers, stove shops, chimney sweeps, inlaws, etc."  Being a serious wood burner, I fully read the manual and spoke to the local dealer about the operation and performance of the stove numerous times.  

I first spoke to the dealer when I bought it and then after the first burn season.  I wanted to make it absolutely sure that I was operating it properly, since this is the first PE and EPA rated stove I have owned and used (and because I spent serious coin on it).  Every time, after I explained in detail how I run the stove, I was reassured by the local dealer that I was operating the stove properly.  Last summer, I even brought in my baffle and some digital pictures of the side rail insulation last year to the local dealer because I was concerned about the sagging/warpage.  They looked at the baffle and the siderail/insulation pictures, and again I was told that everything looked normal.  Unfortunately, they are now closed, so I don't have them to verify my direct dealings with them.  I am just going through the dealership headquarters, who have never seen my face before.

I read that PE is fairly automated when it comes to the welds.  I am not sure if all the welds in the firebox are done via automated welders, but I think most of them are.  Any manufacturing whether by human hand or machine can fail from time to time, and I am sure PE isn't immune to that.

So now the waiting game continues.  Like Hog said, "I love my insert, but I want it made right."  Loyalty is a two-way street.  I will post any further developments.  If there are more PE owners with similar models out there (and I am pretty sure there is), thoroughly inspect your stoves and give us a report.


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## drdoct (Oct 2, 2009)

Sisu said:
			
		

> Thank you for your replies.  I contacted the dealership headquarters today in regard to the cracks in the firebox.  The person (who I have been dealing with since the baffle issue) said immediately that the cause is over-firing.  He stated that PE has only ever received a total of 6 fireboxes returned, since the start of their operation.  However, he had not yet seen the photos.




These sentences alone should tip you off to how they deal with customers.  Without any shred of evidence it's your fault.  I can almost hear their automated help line:

Welcome to PE help line...
Please press 1 if you have a warped baffle..... <beep> Due to you overfiring your stove it's not covered, sorry!
Please press 2 if you have cracked welds.....   <beep> Due to you overfiring your stove it's not covered, sorry!
Please press 3 if your door won't fit properly....<beep> Due to you overfiring your stove it's not covered, sorry!
Please press 4 if you think it's our shoddy workmanship.... <beep>  We're sorry, 4 is not an option... please pick from the following 3 menu items..... 


Hope they make it right, and before Summer too. (for both of you)


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## timfromohio (Oct 2, 2009)

I have a PE Pacific insert purchased and installed in 2005 - I'll be inspecting very carefully this weekend.  Let's keep this thread going and post whatever is heard from PE.


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## fredarm (Oct 2, 2009)

timfromohio said:
			
		

> I have a PE Pacific insert purchased and installed in 2005 - I'll be inspecting very carefully this weekend.  Let's keep this thread going and post whatever is heard from PE.



Same with my Vista.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 2, 2009)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> BrotherBart said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah small claims court. Cheaper and in and out fast. You tell your side. They tell their side and the judge makes a decision. Or if you really want to swing for the fences see about getting it on Judge Judy. She would have a ball with this.  :coolgrin: 

You would be going after the dealer since he is the one ya handed the money to and he would hand it off to his business liability insurance carrier.


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## karri0n (Oct 2, 2009)

Judge Judy might be a good idea - for one thing, the producers pay out, no damages at all to PE. Another, this gets some real attention that PE won't be able to ignore.


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## Hogwildz (Oct 3, 2009)

Ok, I pulled everything out of the inside. Fire brick, baffle, baffle rails & insulation, the top s.s. guard, everything. Wire brushed it, everything else looks ok.
In a few spots, including the areas that cracked. The weld are more either globbed or not much there like where the cracks are. Some doesn't look like much penetration.
I am guessing in these areas it may not be automated welds, but rather done by hand, cause they are in tight confined spaces. I think maybe the long outer welds are automated, ans the inner's hand welded. I also saved all the crap that came with the insert. Including the QC inspection check list.
The top boxes look like they didn't even look at the stuff and check them off individually. There is just a scribbled line through all those boxes.
The lower set of boxes are checked of one at a time. I'm thinking the quality control guy got lazy and just scribbled a line through the fist set of check boxes, maybe not even actually looking at them.
I am taking photos, the manual & the QC checklist to the dealer tomorrow. Hope he is cooperative, I am doing all I can to stay calm and not blow a gasket on someone.
I'll post the new photos in a few after I take them all.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 3, 2009)

If you need to be bailed out, I will be on the way.


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## Hogwildz (Oct 3, 2009)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> If you need to be bailed out, I will be on the way.



lol, Ya better send me your phone number for my one call then. The OL aint got a pot to wiz in.
I might have to take you up on that.
Ok got my pics, gonna shower then post everything here.
Be back in a bit.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 3, 2009)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> Ya better send me your phone number for my one call then. The OL aint got a pot to wiz in.



They just have got to change that stuff to one call and/or email. But I ain't kidding bro. But just remember that it costs me the same for you threatening to hit him that it does for actually hitting him. Get my money's worth.  :coolgrin: 

And get the 30 hooked up. Cold is on the doorstep and I don't wanna be freezing up there.


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## madison (Oct 3, 2009)

QC checklist?  I am jealous, mine didn't have one.  Now I know mine was a second shift after "lunch break" model.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 3, 2009)

madison said:
			
		

> QC checklist?  I am jealous, mine didn't have one.  Now I know mine was a second shift after "lunch break" model.



My first Englander 30 had a QC check off inside it. And it had a major manufacturing defect. Those pieces of paper are not even good kindling.


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## Hogwildz (Oct 3, 2009)

Took these photos at higher quality setting,
Gonna even print them on photo paper.


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## pen (Oct 3, 2009)

Those are great looking pics.  That quality speaks a lot of your intentions to pursue this case with them.  Quality picture evidence is as good as live ammunition   Well, metaphorically anyway.  Regardless, those pics show an owner who takes care of his equipment and knows better than to overfire (whatever overfireing means!)

pen


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## crazy_dan (Oct 3, 2009)

Left upper door opening, is a crap weld the crack is strait down the middle of the weld.


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## Hogwildz (Oct 3, 2009)

I highly doubt these welds are automated.
Looks a bit sloppy to me.


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## drdoct (Oct 3, 2009)

Sloppy is being nice.  Looks like a bird dumped all over it then tried to take the grinder to make it look nice.  If I were them, I'd be ashamed to even answer your email!

I edited this to add that I'd probably send 1 or 2 that you've got with the thermometers showing.  Even a mention that you know this is not an isolated incident. I sure hope they make it right.... for their sakes.


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## Hogwildz (Oct 3, 2009)

Pen, thanks, I am on a mission. And a force to be reckoned with LOL.
Dan, I completely agree! As I stated in another post, a good weld should never crack down the middle.
If done properly, it should be stronger than the steel surrounding it. The steel should crack or tear first. Even adge the side edge of the weld would prove a good weld. But never down the center or through the weld.
At least that was what I was taught. Any certified welders, please feel free to comment. Even if I am wrong about the strength of a weld. I need all the fuel I can get to fight this if need be.
These don't look so bad. The first one near the top weld looks like the weld may not have penetrated some. Or maybe its a good penetration and has an edge there, Hard to tell. But def better than the others.


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## Hogwildz (Oct 3, 2009)

I think I am going to print all these out, and show that some welds look ok, which makes the shatty welds really stand out.
Where the cracks are, it seems like there is no way to get back into the back of the crack, without cutting the inner steel horizontal plating out. Otherwise is is shove a welding rod back there and hope to get it.
I am not hopeful. Kinda wishing they would just replace the damned thing. But I ain't going to hold my breath.
I'm talking about the first pics I posts tonight.
These are just more of what I saw. Good & bad.
Should I use the first inner opening crack photo, or is this one better?


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## Hogwildz (Oct 3, 2009)

I took some of the baffle too, might as well try for a new one of these too.


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## Hogwildz (Oct 3, 2009)

One more of the baffle.
One more of the welds inner front upper horizontal .
And the best for last............ The QC card, this should be the clincher as far as I am concerned.
A check list is just that, check each thing and check the box after inspected ok. NOT a scribbled line through all the boxes at once.
2 guys did that, the last one did it right. Kinda scary.
Notice the welding inspection is one of the scribblers.


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## pen (Oct 3, 2009)

I think your analysis of the way that card is filled out is spot on and proves your point that this stove came pre-destined to have a failure due to manufacturing defects / flaws that were overlooked.  

pen


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## karri0n (Oct 3, 2009)

I would put a link to this thread. I'm certain the folks at PE are aware of this site and the business it brings them. Just two years ago was PE summit year here, before woodstock cleaned house on the forums. I'm sure both manufacturers at least realize this site has more than a minimal effect on sales.

Maybe we can get an official apology to the hearth.com members  :coolgrin:


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## Sisu (Oct 3, 2009)

Good job Hog!    You did alot of work cleaning up the areas where the cracked welds are.  I will try to do the same this weekend and take pictures of the results, if I get the time.  

I still haven't heard anything from PE.  My claim timeline so far for these issues is as follows:

-*Wednesday September 09, 2009* - I called the dealership headquarters (since the local dealership no longer was in business) in regard to the cracked baffle (I noticed it when I swept my chimney).  After the call, I sent an email to the contact along with pictures of the baffle.

-*Monday September 14, 2009* - I was forwarded an email sent from the dealership contact to PE stating:
"I had this customer contact me regarding a warranty concern/issue on a Pacific Energy Medium Insert. Attached are photos of the baffle as well as the receipt and serial number. Would you be able to contact this customer as well as myself so we can get this resolved. Please address this as soon as possible seeing as the heating season is upon us."  

-*Wednesday September 16* - I called the dealership contact.  He said that they will get me a new baffle, but stated mine might not even be SS (even though I was told it was when I bought it and I am sure the manual states the part is) but they will honour the warranty.  He will contact me as soon as it arrives.

-*Sunday September 27, 2009* - I took everything out of the stove and vacuumed it out, noticing the cracked welds.

-*Monday September 28, 2009* - I registered and posted on this site for the first time in regard to the cracked baffle and welds looking for advice.  I then telephoned the dealership contact and sent the photos via email.  He stated the baffle will still be replaced and is waiting for it.  He also made the comment that the crack in the baffle was a seam and not a crack (see my earlier posts).  

-*Tuesday September 29, 2009* - I telephoned the dealership contact to make sure the photos were received and forwarded to PE.  He said it had been forwarded to PE.  I did not get cc'd this time if he forwarded my email.

-*Wednesday September 30, 2009* - I filled in the online Service/Technical support form on the PE website, to ask if my warranty claim had been received and if they required any other information.

-*Thursday October 01, 2009* - I telephoned the dealership contact to see what was happening.  See my earlier posts for info on this conversation.  

So where am I at right now, since this process started (almost a full month now):

-PE has yet to contact me.  I have not received any correspondance from them at all.
-I have only received one email from the dealership headquarters, which was a forward to PE in regard to the original baffle claim that I was cc'd on.  So far I have to keep calling the dealership to get any information.  
-I have no baffle replacement, even though the dealership stated that it would be replaced.  A moot point now, considering the cracked welds in the firebox.
-My stove is cold and sitting on blocks, so to speak.  The gas furnace is running, since the weather here is cold and miserable.  
-I don't have any real indication what is happening in regard to the warranty claim via PE, no real idea what the outcome will be nor how long this process will take.  The timeline so far indicates that the process could move at a snails pace.  

What does everyone think about this?  Is this acceptable?  I hope Hog has a better time with his dealer and PE!


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## madison (Oct 3, 2009)

The pre paint signature on the "QC" checklist is classic, looks like whomever spent more time with the signature than the inspection.


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## Bigg_Redd (Oct 3, 2009)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Sisu said:
> 
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> 
> ...



What's the EBT hole?


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## Sisu (Oct 3, 2009)

Okay.  I found the time.  It seems things are even worse than I originally thought.  See for yourself: 

This is the left top corner of the door rim.  The weld is cracked and the exterior steel also exhibits a crack.


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## Sisu (Oct 3, 2009)

This is the top left inside corner area.


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## Sisu (Oct 3, 2009)

This is the right top inside corner area.


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## Sisu (Oct 3, 2009)

This is the boost manifold and shelf.  The weld around the hole shows evidence of the weld delaminating.  I didn't realize before that the hole goes all the way through the firebox to the outside, always allowing outside air to pass.  Is that the area that ensures an EPA rating no matter if the damper is on low?


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## Sisu (Oct 3, 2009)

Here is a closeup of the hole and weld in the boost manifold shelf.  Wow that was a tight space to work in to take all these photos.


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## lobsta1 (Oct 3, 2009)

I know I am definitely watching this thread to find out how PE handles these defective stoves. My belief is that they will accommodate the posters on this site & then do away with the lifetime warranty  on new sales.

Companies are becoming much more aware of the power of NEGATIVE advertising on the net. One or two bad stories spread over multiple web sites can easily out shine years of advertising. About 8 years ago I installed a new fridge in my boat. I ordered it at the local BoatUs store from the catalog as they were not normally stocked. The reason I picked that particular fridge was due to the reputation of the maker. I did not realize that the company had been bought out by a conglomerate. Turns out the fridge I purchased was just a re-badged model from the RV division. ONE week after install my boat was "waked" by a passing boat. The door ripped off the fridge. There was no way to repair it. BoatUs said it was a warranty problem. The maker said it was not *normal usage & not covered! *

I posted on the BoatUs site in the Consumer Affairs forum. When the thread got up to 9 pages long I forwarded the link to the support personnel & a week later the manufacturer offered me a free replacement. Bottom line is that too many people are researching on the net before making a purchase of a stove. When they search on PE, google will bring this thread up. Guess how many potential buyers will pass on a PE product. I know I was seriously thinking with the tax credit of upgrading my stove to a Summit insert. Guess who is now hesitating?
Al


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## meathead (Oct 3, 2009)

Man these things are a sloppy mess. Pathetic the OP has been at it for a month without hearing a peep from the manufacturer. Not to mention...the dealer being out of busines seems to be a common trend. I gotta say though, you PE people must be a patient bunch, because thus far everyone has resisted the urge to let the &^#% talking fly. I'm curious to see how this thing goes. Maybe everyone with a proplem should throw a group e-mail together and send it off. DOn't bother including your pics in the e-mail, just tell them that to see pictures of the problem areas they can refer to this thread. 

...It's a metal box that holds fire...even if you were consistantly overfiring (which we still don't have a definition for), warping should occur along with some of those cracks. All I see is a bunch of sloppy welds that didn't stand a chance even if you never had a fire in the thing.


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## jqgs214 (Oct 3, 2009)

Will be checking my welds tonight!  I hope this isn't my 2nd stove with bad welds my first stove (VC) was replaced with this PE under warranty.  Long story you can search for the thread if you like.


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## Bigg_Redd (Oct 3, 2009)

meathead said:
			
		

> Man these things are a sloppy mess. Pathetic the OP has been at it for a month without hearing a peep from the manufacturer. Not to mention...the dealer being out of busines seems to be a common trend. *I gotta say though, you PE people must be a patient bunch, because thus far everyone has resisted the urge to let the &^#% talking fly.* I'm curious to see how this thing goes. Maybe everyone with a proplem should throw a group e-mail together and send it off. DOn't bother including your pics in the e-mail, just tell them that to see pictures of the problem areas they can refer to this thread.
> 
> ...It's a metal box that holds fire...even if you were consistantly overfiring (which we still don't have a definition for), warping should occur along with some of those cracks. All I see is a bunch of sloppy welds that didn't stand a chance even if you never had a fire in the thing.



I've read hundreds of posts by well pleased PE owners.   My two best friends have PE inserts and they love them.   My my PE dealer has been a local yokel for 25 years and has been dealing PEs for over 10 of those years without seeing one serious failure on a PE stove.  Pardon me if I'm not impressed by a few cracks that do not appear to affect the utility of the stove in any way.  

Regardless, I hope PE takes care of these issues to the satisfaction of the aggrieved customers.


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## meathead (Oct 3, 2009)

Bigg_Redd said:
			
		

> Pardon me if I'm not impressed by a few cracks that do not appear to affect the utility of the stove in any way.



The OP has cracks around his door that are allowing air into the firebox (I'd say the utility of the stove has been affected as he now can't control air flow. I wouldn't want to leave the house with my stove burning if it had a crack that let air in) and PE hasn't gotten back to him despite a month of communication. All I was saying is it is pretty patient of him and others with similar issues to not be full on flaming the company at this point.


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## Sisu (Oct 3, 2009)

Bigg_Redd said:
			
		

> meathead said:
> 
> 
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I respect your opinion, but my intent is not to malign PE or the dealership I am dealing with.  I have presented the facts as they happen.  I think the civility in my posts and all of the others who have responded speaks to it.  Also, you should note that I too was a well pleased PE owners.  I don't mean to speak for Hog, but I am pretty sure he feels the exact same.

However, my 4 year loyalty to PE hinges upon their response to these issues, which I believe is fair.  PE has a great reputation based on their products.  However, I don't think anyone ever has a perfect record.  In any manufacturing sometimes a lemon is eventually produced.  I accept that.  If PE comes through with a satisfactory response, we will remain loyal and pleased PE owners and you definitely will hear about it.  I admit I am a bit frustrated at this point, mainly because I have yet to hear from PE.   This could change once I hear from PE.  And I too personally know some PE owners and yes they are pleased.

This is a public forum that allows for the exchange of ideas, knowledge and experience.  I saw a problem and came on here seeking advice and knowledge, and to share my experience with this process.  It is good knowledge for all PE owners here to see how a warranty claim to this degree is managed.

I don't agree that these cracks are minor.  Especially anything that is allowing extra air into the firebox.  How will these stoves (Hog's and mine) look five/10/15 years etc., down the road?  Will those cracks still remain minor?  What are my chances of pursuing a warranty in that time?

Also, what happens to this unit's UL certification and my insurance, especially once I am aware that there is a potential problem?  It is a woodburing appliance and if there is a failure in the product, my family and property can be in danger.  If I am running the stove with knowledge that there are potential problems with the stove, I too am responsible. 

I will let PE reserve judgement on these cracks.  If PE deems them to be minor, I will ask them to put it in writing and make sure I store the writing in a safety deposit box and not in the house.

So I hope you understand the mindset I am in.  But this thread can have a happy ending.  Then we can continue raving about our PE stoves again.


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## madison (Oct 3, 2009)

Correct me as i am probably wrong, but is the door gasket outside of the area of the door cracks, and thus containing any air entrainment?

And other than the observation of the cracked welds, performance/rapid burning were not an issue?

And lastly, what is the "Floating firebox for extended stove life"?


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## Sisu (Oct 3, 2009)

madison said:
			
		

> Correct me as i am probably wrong, but is the door gasket outside of the area of the door cracks, and thus containing any air entrainment?



If you look at the some pictures in Post #65 showing the crack in the weld and the cracked steel, the door is closed.  These cracks are not contained by the gasket and allow for air to enter the firebox.  All the others on my stove I believe are internal based on my visual inspection.


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## madison (Oct 3, 2009)

Agree, thanks, plus the crack down by the EBT may be a source as well ....

Still can't understand the "Floating firebox for extended stove life" concept/design theory ...


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## Todd (Oct 3, 2009)

Where's Tom the Chimney Sweep? Wonder if he's seen anything like this before? He really knows his PE's and has delt with them for years. Maybe someone should shoot him an email.


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## Sisu (Oct 4, 2009)

I telephoned my dealer contact yesterday and the baffle is in.  The contact stated that PE should be in contact with me soon in regard to the cracks in the firebox.  I will let you know what happens.

Adding to my timeline:

*Saturday October 3, 2009* - Baffle is at the dealership headquarters.


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## thechimneysweep (Oct 4, 2009)

Well, Someone shot me and E-mail.  In our 20 years with PE, we've had two cases where cracks appeared in the welds or elsewhere.  In both cases, it was our opinion that the stoves were overfired, as both exhibited two or more of these tell-tale symptoms: metal shaling, shrunken gaskets, BADLY warped baffles & rails, and premature discoloration of the 1200-degree paint.  One guy let on that was heating a 3000 sq.ft. shack that had been a chicken coop, and had NO insulation in the walls.  With a Super Series model, by the way, rated to heat max 2000 sq.ft.  The other guy denied ever overfiring his stove, but our crew noticed he had a stack of cut-to-stove-size creosote soaked railroad ties in his woodpile.

We forwarded our observations along with the warranty claims.  PE replaced both stoves, no questions asked.  Which led us to conclusion that their policy is to honor every warranty claim that comes across the desk (which would be one possible reason they don't go into specifices re overfire temps etc.)  I'm betting they'll do the same here, even though Hog sort of shoots himself in the foot in this three-year-old thread: https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/5506/ (just rattling your cage a little there, my brother).


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## Bigg_Redd (Oct 4, 2009)

Sisu said:
			
		

> Bigg_Redd said:
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If they (the dealer or PE themselves) take care of you, then IMO there is no issue.  If they continue to blow you off then I too will have a problem.


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## Bigg_Redd (Oct 4, 2009)

Sisu said:
			
		

> madison said:
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My mistake.  I did not see anything in the OP about affected burning or burn times.


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## Hogwildz (Oct 4, 2009)

thechimneysweep said:
			
		

> Well, Someone shot me and E-mail.  In our 20 years with PE, we've had two cases where cracks appeared in the welds or elsewhere.  In both cases, it was our opinion that the stoves were overfired, as both exhibited two or more of these tell-tale symptoms: metal shaling, shrunken gaskets, BADLY warped baffles & rails, and premature discoloration of the 1200-degree paint.  One guy let on that was heating a 3000 sq.ft. shack that had been a chicken coop, and had NO insulation in the walls.  With a Super Series model, by the way, rated to heat max 2000 sq.ft.  The other guy denied ever overfiring his stove, but our crew noticed he had a stack of cut-to-stove-size creosote soaked railroad ties in his woodpile.
> 
> We forwarded our observations along with the warranty claims.  PE replaced both stoves, no questions asked.  Which led us to conclusion that their policy is to honor every warranty claim that comes across the desk (which would be one possible reason they don't go into specifices re overfire temps etc.)  I'm betting they'll do the same here, even though Hog sort of shoots himself in the foot in this three-year-old thread: https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/5506/ (just rattling your cage a little there, my brother).



I know your just playing devil's advocate and also trying to make a frustrating situation, a lil on the lighter side, and I do appreciate that Tom. And I always took your word for questions I had.

If I overfired without seeing the telltale signs I have learned about and read about, then I will accept that.
As far as metal scaling, ever off season any stove will take in a good amount of moisture, which does cause rust and scaling, which will come off in layers over time. Especially with heating & cooling of the steel.
Heck I see steel tractor & trailer framing doing the same thing every day, without the seclusion & heat up and cooling down a firebox sees. Its steel, it happens. I have not problem with it if the steel lasts say 15 or 20 years.
I never had shrunken gaskets, I did have the baffle gaskets break when removing the baffle to clean the liner.
As far as the baffle. Its steel, although stainless, still steel, and still a good size area, which with heat added, is bound to sag some over time. I was thinking maybe they should put some rails inside the baffle to help support the upper and lower plates to stiffen the area and help keep them from sagging. But the welds might break from the opposing expansion & contraction. I dunno. The baffle still work, I just loose 1/4" to 1/2" of space, no biggie.
As for premature discoloration. I know the paint, I just don't know. I have never seen a firebox hold paint for a long period of time. I can guess a guy the even only ran his stove at 450-500 degrees is still going to have the paint discolor or burn off. The time frame, I just don't know. But I would also contribute the paint discoloring/burning, flaking etc, also back to the moisture, rust, heat, cool, etc. Not making exucses, maybe I am wrong. But these facts seems obvious to me anyways.

As far as home size. Yes these are space heaters, and we all want to heat the house with it. Whether we can or not, depends on house, insulation as you pointed out, etc. etc.
I keep my oil furnace set to 62 and if it needs to come on, so be it. Wouldn't a stove put out relatively the same amount of heat whether 100 sf or 200 sf? Its not like you can turn a stove temp up or down with a thermostat like a furnace.
 Meaning, it has a maximum out put. Which yes it you leave the air wide open and and run it at its highest, your abusing & prolly over firing.. I never done that, except to start a reload or cold start. But in a 100sf house or 2000 sf house. if the same stove with same wood, charred good and air cut back, should put out the same amount of heat. Now will a smaller place get hotter, faster and stay hotter, hell yes. Seems to me the only difference would be the homes ability to heat up to, and retain that heat. The temps would be different in the 2 homes, but wouldn't the stove put out the same heat either way?

I have never seen the insert glow. With the exception of the baffle once in a while. See the following explanation/problems.
Here is my problem. When I got the insert. I was never told, nor did the packing or manual tell me the door needed adjustment. I think they could at least tell ya this.
Then once I got that squared away. No matter what I did, whether I cut the air to low at 350, 400 or 500, it would still run where it wanted to. usually up to about 700-750 range.There is no other user control I know off. Unless you burn 3 splits at a time. And even then, when it got going, it would run to 650. So if I cut the air backk at say 450, and it takes itself to 750, what am I supposed to do? Is it the EBT taking it there? I even used a 1" door gasket to make sure the door was not leaking. The air all the way to low. And it never mattered, from 400, 450, 500, 550, it would take itself to 750. For an hour maybe 2 while the gasses burned off. How am I to stop this?
How do I get it to stop 550 or 600 and have it not run up to 750? The stove runs to where it wants to run. With the air cut all the way to low, and the blower even on high, I have no further control.

I am open to all suggestions. Could the EBT be malfuncioning and letting the extra air in that lets it go to 750?
If I cut it back at 350, its then merely smoldering and smoking like crazy. And then drops in temp.
I love the insert. It looks nice to me, heats great, and there is not much to it. But at first it was new user apprehension, and feeling like maybe something is wrong.
But when I could NOT keep it from running to 750 or so, with air all the way low, and even cutting it back at say 400 or 450, it still ran to 750. Just took  longer if the air was cut back at a lower temp. But always ended up at around 750, no matter what.


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## Hogwildz (Oct 4, 2009)

Ran out of characters on the previous "rant" LOL
The stove did come back down after the spike usually to about 600-650. But it would run at 750ish for an hour or 2.
If I was in the wrong in some way. Then that is on me. At this will hot run it with cracks, especially face cracks.
I just want an answer, if they will cover it. If not, its gonna be pulled take to be repaired, and I may put the Englander in its place for now.
With working on the house, I may not even do that. I have a tank full of oil, I'll run the damned furnace if I have to.
So much going on, just didn't need this on top of it all. But must be dealt with.
Cultured stone again today, Was up till 4:30 AM installing stone. Not even 1/2 way there.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 4, 2009)

Since Tom posted that he has run his PE stove at 800 for fifteen years it doesn't sound like your burning should have caused cracks. I cringed when he posted that but he knows more about wood stoves than I do.


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## thechimneysweep (Oct 5, 2009)

Whoa there, BB.  I don't maintain 800 degree temps for any period of time, although I do spike into that neighborhood quite frequently, particularly after kindling a fresh load.  BUT... my thermometer is on the "hot spot," in the middle of the top plate of the stove.  I monkeyed around with thermometer placement a couple years ago, and if memory serves, the spot on the faceplate above and beside the door opening where insert owners take the temp was 100 - 150 degrees cooler, varying with the intensity of the fire.  I figured at the time that the cause for the difference was the airflow through the airwash chute, which is behind and slightly above that spot.

The bottom line is, insert owners should figure the actual peak temp is 100 degrees or so hotter than shown on a thermometer placed above and behind the door opening.


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## karl (Oct 5, 2009)

My welds are fine, but the metal is cracked.  The fire box has a crack on the top left, and  the door lip on the top left is cracked on through in the same area.  My baffle looked fine a few weeks ago when I cleaned the stove.

May I suggest we create a sticky for this, for the next month or so.  Many people have been gone all summer and may not see it.  Also put your purchase date in your post so can see if it may be a bad batch of stoves.  Mine was purchased in August of 2007.


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## drdoct (Oct 5, 2009)

Me thinks PE (company) is getting ready to have a big problem...


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## meathead (Oct 5, 2009)

I'm pretty curious to hear PE's reply. From other threads here it sounds like it is likely that everyone with a problem will have a new stove shortly. The fact the OP has been waiting a month + for a reply from them makes me wonder if his dealer has been dishonest about their contacting PE on his behalf. 

Have any of you contacted the company directly to make your claim, or is everyone with a problem relying on a dealer to get the message across?


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## Hogwildz (Oct 5, 2009)

QC slip date 6/7/06
Packaged 10/18/06
Purchased 12/2/06

Starting to get a bit more concerned.
Per PE, you must go through dealer first. Then, if dealer doesn't follow up, then contact PE direct.
I gave photos, copy of purchase receipt, and copy of QC slip to an old guy at the dealer Saturday.
He didn't know anything, but said he would make sure the owner gets the file I left.
I will give them a couple more days, then I will call them. If no movement. I am calling PE direct.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 5, 2009)

Ya know, if I was a stove dealer I would not want this guy walking into my shop pissed off.


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## Todd (Oct 5, 2009)

I bet he's really a teddy bear on the inside. What happened to that pic of Hog and his axe, that was scary! :lol:


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## greythorn3 (Oct 5, 2009)

HAHA! most guys that look like that are softies, they project a image to keep other away, its like a self defense mechanism. They are the ones taking bubble baths and reading poetry behind closed doors..


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## BrotherBart (Oct 6, 2009)

greythorn3 said:
			
		

> HAHA! most guys that look like that are softies, they project a image to keep other away, its like a self defense mechanism. They are the ones taking bubble baths and reading poetry behind closed doors..



Not this one Bubba. Not this one.  :lol: Just a heck of a nice guy that only gets ornery when ya mess with him. Or his wood stove.


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## greythorn3 (Oct 6, 2009)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> greythorn3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree that woodstoves will turn any man into a monster!


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## Sisu (Oct 6, 2009)

meathead said:
			
		

> I'm pretty curious to hear PE's reply. From other threads here it sounds like it is likely that everyone with a problem will have a new stove shortly. The fact the OP has been waiting a month + for a reply from them makes me wonder if his dealer has been dishonest about their contacting PE on his behalf.
> 
> Have any of you contacted the company directly to make your claim, or is everyone with a problem relying on a dealer to get the message across?



I did fill in the online form on PE website last Wednesday September 30, 2009, thinking the exact same thing.  When I spoke to my dealer contact this past Saturday, he mentioned that PE had received it, without me making mention of it before.  So my dealer is in contact with PE and vice versa. 

In PE defence, I originally started with a claim on the baffle and didn't discover the cracks until after.  I made the firebox claim on Monday September 28, 2009.  So they have had a week to respond to this issue. The baffle issue was the original one, and the replacement is waiting at the dealership.

However, I haven't heard from PE yet and would like very like to!


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## Sisu (Oct 6, 2009)

karl said:
			
		

> My welds are fine, but the metal is cracked.  The fire box has a crack on the top left, and  the door lip on the top left is cracked on through in the same area.  My baffle looked fine a few weeks ago when I cleaned the stove.
> 
> May I suggest we create a sticky for this, for the next month or so.  Many people have been gone all summer and may not see it.  Also put your purchase date in your post so can see if it may be a bad batch of stoves.  Mine was purchased in August of 2007.



That seems almost identical to Hog's and my pictures.  Similar problem areas.  I would take a wire brush, like Hog did originally, to the internal welds (if you haven't done so already) to clean them up.  I didn't get to see the full extent of the internal cracks, until I did so.  The four winters of burning was hiding alot under the crud build up.


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## karl (Oct 6, 2009)

The funny thing about this is, when I first bought this stove, I was looking at the door lip and thought to myself,"How can you have right angles like that and put them under an expansive load and not expect them to crack?"  I dismissed my concerns because it seems every stove is made that way.

I have a background in aviation, and we know that right angles create stress points and something will give eventually.  The first pressurized passenger plane ever built start breaking apart in flight.  After six of them crashed in a very short period, they all were grounded.  The problem was that they had square window frames.  The frames were put under stress when the plane was pressurized and the metal cracked at the stress point (the righ angles of the window frames).  Now all pressurized airplanes have rounded windows.  Infact, there are no right angles anywhere in the pressure vessel.  Everything, is some degree of a curve.  This allows the load to be passed though it evenly.  The same thing applies to concrete, except they cut expansion grooves in it instead of making it rounded.  An "L" shaped piece of concrete will always crack where the inside angle is.  If you have a door in the corner of a room.  The drywall cracks from the inside edge of the door to the ceiling for the same reason.


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## jqgs214 (Oct 6, 2009)

Well finally checked my stove, all the problem areas you guys have seem fine on my stove, but I do have a small crack on an interior weld, not something that compromises performance in any way and does not lead to an air source.  Since its a lifetime warranty I'm not pursuing it at this time, dont even have a dealer since I got my straight from a distributor in my last warranty war.  Just thought everyone would want to know I have a crack too.


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## bren582 (Oct 6, 2009)

That's a great point on rounded versus angled cornering in the manufacturing proces. I have a cast iron insert and noticed most corners and edges around the firebox body are rounded or radius to some degree versus 90deg angles. Not sure if the manufacturer does that as normal for a casting but I would imagine that stress relief comes into play especially when dealing with expanding/contracting cast iron. Steel must also expand a contract but I always imagined it would do it better versus cast iron..


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## Sisu (Oct 6, 2009)

wxman said:
			
		

> Well finally checked my stove, all the problem areas you guys have seem fine on my stove, but I do have a small crack on an interior weld, not something that compromises performance in any way and does not lead to an air source.  Since its a lifetime warranty I'm not pursuing it at this time, dont even have a dealer since I got my straight from a distributor in my last warranty war.  Just thought everyone would want to know I have a crack too.



Did you wire brush the internal welds?  Take some pictures and post them too, if possible.  Like I wrote previously, I didn't get to see the full extent of the cracks until I cleaned things up a bit.  I even missed seeing the cracked steel on the door rim. however that wasn't a cleaning issue.  I did a double take on the second set of pictures I took.  The flash on the camera made it stand out.

I still haven't heard from PE.  What about you Hog?


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## BrotherBart (Oct 6, 2009)

This thread got me curious. My old insert has the "knife edge" welded into the door frame like the PE stoves have. And a 3/8" top plate and 1/4" body like PE purports to have. I say purports because the Summit insert I looked at the local stove store the other day damn sure wasn't 3/8" on top.

I still have the old stove, that was fired regularly to temps that pegged the thousand degree scale on the old Rutland thermometers and eventually cracked the top back of the firebox from banging N/S splits into the back of the unlined firebox. I went out in the back forty today and took a look at it. Not one crack around that door frame. 

Something ain't right here with those stoves guys. You guys aren't burning them anywhere near as hot as I burned that old dog.


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## Hogwildz (Oct 7, 2009)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> This thread got me curious. My old insert has the "knife edge" welded into the door frame like the PE stoves have. And a 3/8" top plate and 1/4" body like PE purports to have. I say purports because the Summit insert I looked at the local stove store the other day damn sure wasn't 3/8" on top.
> 
> I still have the old stove, that was fired regularly to temps that pegged the thousand degree scale on the old Rutland thermometers and eventually cracked the top back of the firebox from banging N/S splits into the back of the unlined firebox. I went out in the back forty today and took a look at it. Not one crack around that door frame.
> 
> Something ain't right here with those stoves guys. You guys aren't burning them anywhere near as hot as I burned that old dog.



I', almost positive thats a 3/8" top plateBB.
See attached photo. Just for reference, the bolt to the right is a 1/4" bolt. You can see the top plate is at least 1/8" thicker than the bolt.
I am avoiding toughing, looking at the insert until I hear back from dealer & PE. Trying not to get upset so far. Although inside, I am very.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 7, 2009)

Get that 30 in the addition saddled up. You are gonna need heat real soon ole buddy.


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## Dix (Oct 7, 2009)

Hogz, I agree with BB, get that NC in there.

Take a breath or 2, and exert some energy else where, Japtain Jack Sparrow 
	

		
			
		

		
	






From my experience with warranties, corporate mumbo jumbo, this is "going to be  bumpy ride"  :roll:


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## Hogwildz (Oct 7, 2009)

Well, funny you say that, I was re-contemplating it again today.
I am thinking I will prolly pull the Summit, Either way its going to have to be removed to repair or replace.
I would order the fan for the 30. Lowes only has the fan for the 13, and Im thinking its too small for the 30?
Is there anywhere that has the fan on sale? BB, do you have the side shields mounted on yours for a hearth install? Can you please post a photo again of your install?
I'm thinking to reuse the liner I have, I might have to set it back into the old fireplace firebox. Do I have to have a "T"?
If I put the 30 in the fireplace, I'll need another stove for the addition. Was looking through the local Paper Shop sellit kinda paper today, and look what I found. If its in good shape, looks like a good deal.....
Might be better suited for the addition.

Category: Heating & Plumbing            
HEARTHSTONE PHOENIX WOOD STOVE
cast iron, w/soap stone finish, EPA stove, 20-logs, 60,000 BTU, over $2500. new, sell $850.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 7, 2009)

I am not so sure that the 30 will fit in your fireplace Hog. I had to have the six inch legs to squeeze mine in. For sure hang onto that great liner in that chimney. I just used a thirty degree stainless elbow and went from the liner into the stove so cleaning is done just like a insert.

I don't know that you need the shields. They seem to convect a lot of heat up and then the blower blows it out of the fireplace. But the fireplace side walls probably do the same job. ESW is probably the best bet for the fan. I keep and eye out and haven't seen a better price anywhere else.

Here it is installed and when I pulled it to put the shields on it.


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## karl (Oct 7, 2009)

better pics


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## karl (Oct 8, 2009)

d better pics


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## Hogwildz (Oct 8, 2009)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> I am not so sure that the 30 will fit in your fireplace Hog. I had to have the six inch legs to squeeze mine in. For sure hang onto that great liner in that chimney. I just used a thirty degree stainless elbow and went from the liner into the stove so cleaning is done just like a insert.
> 
> I don't know that you need the shields. They seem to convect a lot of heat up and then the blower blows it out of the fireplace. But the fireplace side walls probably do the same job. ESW is probably the best bet for the fan. I keep and eye out and haven't seen a better price anywhere else.
> 
> Here it is installed and when I pulled it to put the shields on it.



Thanks BB, when ya get a chance, do me a favor and measure your stove height from floor to top of collar. I have the 9" legs, if it takes 6" to make it work, I'll buy them when I order the fan.


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## Hogwildz (Oct 8, 2009)

Called the selling dealer today. He acknowledged he received by file I left for him.
He advised he is just getting done moving everything back from the fair. And has gave PE a heads up. He is going to mail everything to them. He said "They will handle all the warranty work".
Didn't say anything one way or another about anything else. As I knew when I bought it. He just wants to make the sale. And really, I can't fault him, its business.
As long as he gets it off to PE, I'm ok with that at this point. Kind of pointless going through dealer, but thats what they want.
I asked him to keep me in the loop. He said he would, and also said I'll prolly be hearing from PE. Yeah, when? 
Not sure the 30 will fit in my firebox. I'm gonna have to pull the surround off and get a vertical measurement. Its going to be real close if it fits at all.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 8, 2009)

29 inches to the top of the flue collar with six inch legs Hog. If you have less than the 31" high opening that I have it would be a bear to try to get it done and the blower would be blowing into the back of the lintel.

Were it me I would massage a little furnace cement into the cracks on the Summit and use it until you find out what the score is if you can't fire up the 30 in the addition and move some air around.


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## Bigg_Redd (Oct 8, 2009)

karl said:
			
		

> The funny thing about this is, when I first bought this stove, I was looking at the door lip and thought to myself,"How can you have right angles like that and put them under an expansive load and not expect them to crack?"  I dismissed my concerns because it seems every stove is made that way.
> 
> I have a background in aviation, and we know that right angles create stress points and something will give eventually.  The first pressurized passenger plane ever built start breaking apart in flight.  After six of them crashed in a very short period, they all were grounded.  The problem was that they had square window frames.  The frames were put under stress when the plane was pressurized and the metal cracked at the stress point (the righ angles of the window frames).  Now all pressurized airplanes have rounded windows.  Infact, there are no right angles anywhere in the pressure vessel.  Everything, is some degree of a curve.  This allows the load to be passed though it evenly.  The same thing applies to concrete, except they cut expansion grooves in it instead of making it rounded.  An "L" shaped piece of concrete will always crack where the inside angle is.  If you have a door in the corner of a room.  The drywall cracks from the inside edge of the door to the ceiling for the same reason.



Stoves aren't pressurized.


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## Sisu (Oct 8, 2009)

Here are new additions to the timeline:

*Wednesday, October 7, 2009* - Morning: I sent an email to the PE contact (that my dealership contact had forwarded my information to), along with the second set of photos that I took and posted in this thread.  This is what I wrote:  
_
"I have yet to hear from PE and I am wondering if there has been any movement in regard to my warranty claim.  I have attached some more pictures of the cracked firebox, after I cleaned up the internal areas.  

Please let me know what is happening and if you require any more information.  I would like to get this matter resolved in a timely fashion, as the weather is getting colder."
_
Afternoon:  I called PE, since I didn't get a response to the email.  In my discussion with PE, I found out that I did not send the email to PE after all.  It was a distributor for PE.  The PE rep stated that since I live in Ontario, I have to deal with this distributor for warranty claims.  The PE rep then gave me the phone number for the distributor, which I called right after.  I spoke with a distributor rep who dealt with warranty claims (he was not the one I emailed) who assured that I would get a response.  So now I am dealing with a third party, to complicate matters a bit more.

*Thursday, October 8, 2009* - Still no reponse from the distributor/PE.  This morning just around 10:30 am, I dropped by the dealership headquarters for the first time for a face to face chat and to pick up the baffle.  As I stated previously, the local dealer closed, so the dealership headquarters location is a bit less convenient (30 minutes away vs the local dealer who was 5 minutes away).  Luckily because of work, I was in the general area today.  

I spoke to another employee there (since the person who I was in contact with was busy with customers).  He was aware of my warranty claim, but I explained in detail the issues and how I had not yet received any response from the distributor.  He did agree that the distributor is certainly taking their time and explained that his (the dealership's) hands are tied, until the distributor makes a decision and gives them direction.  He also asked if I had overfired the stove, which I again stated again that I was not aware of overfiring it and explained my previous discussions  with the local dealership (refer to my previous posts for details).  He agreed that I should be frustrated with the lack of response, and that the lack of response from the distributor was making the dealership look bad.   He took my contact information, saying that he will personally light a fire under the proverbial buttocks of the distributor to get an answer.  He explained that usually the stove would be removed and taken to a welder for rewelds, cleanup and repainting.  We both agreed to leave the baffle at the dealership, since it wasn't going to serve a purpose until the cracked welds issue is dealt with.  

Like Hog said, the warranty process is not the dealership's fault.  They are in the business of making sales and have to follow whatever process the manufacturer gives them.  It is the distributor and/or PE who has the responsibility to deal with the warranty, and to direct the dealership as per whatever decision is made.  My understanding now is that the distributor is the party at fault, due to the lack of response.   I still have not any response from them in regard to my warranty claim.

So another baby step has been taken.   Hopefully it wasn't backwards...........


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## Sisu (Oct 8, 2009)

Bigg_Redd said:
			
		

> karl said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That may be true to a certain extent.  I think under normal operation, a wood stove may be under negative pressure, since oxygen is being consumed and air is being drawn into the unit.  However, the negative pressure is probably very low.  Whuffing is another issue, dealing with excessive postive pressure, but is not normal operation for a wood stove.

Regardless, there are other far greater stresses that the stove material experiences, mainly temperature related expansions and contractions, and the compression of the door to the door frame.  Either way, the physics of steel still apply.  Sharp right angles in steel that is under stress will crack, which is why 90 degree angles should always be slightly rounded.


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## madison (Oct 8, 2009)

In conversations in the past with a local dealer regarding warranty work, he generalized that warranty work with all wood stove mfg's is a pain, and the dealer has to essentially provide the labor and parts, and then fill out the paperwork to get reimbursed for the parts.

I am not saying the above is true, only relaying what I was told.  And this may not be unique to wood stoves, but could explain the delays.   The dealer is not going to front you the new stove only to find out that the distributor and mfg are not going to reimburse the dealer.  And so relationships between all the involved parties could potentially affect the response time.

Last yr it took ~ one month to get a boost manifold replaced ...


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## Hogwildz (Oct 8, 2009)

I spoke with the selling dealer this morning.
Just returned from the market, and had a voice mail from Corie at PE.
I called back and got his voice mail. So far, the response time in my situation has been pretty good.
Now I hope he calls back while I am here. I have read that almost any consumer product that you have to with deal warranty claims through the distributor, takes a while, as the distributor does not have much motivation to move fast.

BB, I'm pretty sure I don't have the 29". I have not pulled the surround off again yet, but I'm pretty sure the bottom of old fireplace to lentel is 29". ;(
It does open back up to the old damper area once past the lentel, but that means I would have to get the stove in with no legs, lift it, support it, install legs, and then most likely make a plate to redirect the air from fan down past the lentel. The block off plate sits about an inch or two higher than the lentel. Sounds like too much hassle to bother with.
I'll wait and see what PE says. I will prolly have to pull it to get it repaired. I will ask my welder neighbor to look at it first, but I'm starting to thinking welding it where it sits is not realistic.


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## Dix (Oct 9, 2009)

Hogz, you have oil for back up, if I remember right?

I took mine apart the other day (shoulda took picks, lol !!). All is okey doke as far as I can see.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 9, 2009)

Oh how I remember this kind of adventure. Found the crack in the old stove in late September and kept trying to patch it and ended up in October realizing it had to be replaced. Fast. No backup heat around here. Got lucky with an unusually warm November and December. Especially when the new stove had a defect.

Man that was a race I don't ever want to run again. I feel your pain Hog. At least oil is down in cost. But I know you don't give a damn, you want wood burning in the joint.


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## Sisu (Oct 9, 2009)

Update:  
*Friday, October 09, 2009*

I just received an email this morning from my dealer contact:

_This is the email I received from ### [the distributor]. Please remove the unit as quick as possible and we can get it over to a welder to get it repaired. 

Thanks so much for your time._

I just got off the phone with him and he said that I need to remove the stove and get it to their dealership for the repair.  He stated that if they were to remove it, I would have to pay for the labour.  As today is a bit short notice and I need to seek extra manpower, I asked if I could bring it in tomorrow.  But according to him Saturday is not good, since they will only have the sales reps working.  So it looks like Tuesday is the only realistic day (Monday is the Thanksgiving holiday for us) after work to bring it in.  I also asked if they are going to do a thorough inspection of the firebox, to ensure that there are not additional cracks.  He sounded a bit reluctant to that request, so I will have to be very explicit as to making them aware of the locations of the cracks and will have to inspect the work thoroughly, once conducted.  

Also, I asked about how long the repairs will take and he couldn't give a timeline, other than stating that they shouldn't take too long.  He then asked if I had a gas furnace, which I stated yes.  I also reiterated that I am spending additional money on gas, while the stove is not in operation.  He also explained is that they pay upfront for the work and then bill the distributor, which is something other posters have also stated and a possible reason for a lot of foot dragging.

However, here is where things get a bit interesting.  I noticed that in the email that he had sent to me, it had the previous correspondances in a thread, starting with my initial email on September 28.  According to the time/date stamps, the dealer contact did not forward my email to the distributor until October 1, after I had called that day to ask if he had received any response from the distributor and after I had sent the online form query to PE asking if the warranty claim had been received.

Also the distributor responded on Wednesday, October 08 stating:
"_Hi #### [dealer contact]

Please forward a quote to weld this unit

Thank you,"
_

So according to the email thread, the dealer contact failed to email or telephone me on Wednesday, October 08 that the distributor had a response.  More importantly, the dealer contact failed to tell me this yesterday, even though he saw me at the dealership and he was told that I was there to see him.  He did not take a momentary break from dealing with a customer to make sale, which I am sure he could have (I was at the store for about 25 minutes).  If I had known sooner, I could have had the stove out and in their hands before the weekend.   

So now it seems, that the dealership contact was negligent too, in his duties.  On top of that, his tone over the phone today was one of annoyance.  He seems somewhat new at being a salesman.  Hopefully, he will learn that a good business not only depends on sales, but on continued customer service too after the sale.

On another note, I still have not received any direct contact with the distributor or PE.  No one, other than the dealership, asked me if I had overfired the unit etc.  Also, no one came to inspect the stove.  I also have to ask if lifetime warrany applies to the repaired firebox.

I will keep you posted on the future developments.


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## Hogwildz (Oct 9, 2009)

I got a call from Cory at PE. He was nice and had a pleasant attitude.
We discussed the problem of the cracks, he said they could be welded. And he would contact the dealer & advise what actions the dealer needs to make next.
In my experience so far, PE has responded promptly, and Cory has acknowledged I have a legit concern. Sounds like they are going to handle it.
But sounds like it must be set up by dealer. I have more faith in PE than the dealer, but am keeping an open mind and giving the dealer the benefit of the doubt right now.
I was hoping to remedy this without having to pull this heavy beast from where she rests. Not sure that is a reality. Getting it in by myself what hard enough, but at least it was all downhill. No to remove, get out of the house and into the truck is all uphill. I'll prolly get some help I hope.
So far, I stand behind my decision of a PE Summit.


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## karl (Oct 9, 2009)

Sisu,

I have a problem with their proposal.  PE has a 5 year comprehensive  warranty that covers parts and labor.  Removing that stove and putting it back in is a lot of labor.  I would tell them to come and get it and bring it back when its fixed.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 9, 2009)

karl said:
			
		

> Sisu,
> 
> I have a problem with their proposal.  PE has a 5 year comprehensive  warranty that covers parts and labor.  Removing that stove and putting it back in is a lot of labor.  I would tell them to come and get it and bring it back when its fixed.



Yep.

"5 Year Comprehensive

Pacific Energy will replace any part found to be defective (parts and labor) for five years from the date of purchase.  This coverage includes electrical components (blowers, speed controls and thermal switches)."

And it says "replace". Not weld back together.


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## Sisu (Oct 9, 2009)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> karl said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Excellent points!  I am calling PE to see what they think.  I will let you know what I find out.


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## karl (Oct 9, 2009)

I have to say,  I love  the stove.  There have been a few "Newbie what brand of insert should I get?" questions posted on here since this thread started and I have wanted to reply GET A PE but I haven't; not because of the cracks but out of fear of getting flamed by the Englander guys.


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## Hogwildz (Oct 9, 2009)

I sent you a PM Sisu, but I don't think it went through.
I advised Cory at PE of your problems with the dealer & distributor, and also advised at least 3 or 4 other members other than myself had similar problems in similar areas.
He advised he already saw the photos. I asked how, and he advised here. I emailed him my photos just so he knew which ones. I have a feeling he already knows, cause he sounded like he knew which one mine is, and how would he know my name as compared to my forum nick? I am guessing Tom gave him a heads up on the thread and problems arising in our stoves. Doesn't sound like PE will post anything here. But they are watching this thread, and aware of the problems. It does seem like they are going to honor the warranty. That is all I am looking for. I don't the world for free, just warranty to one way or another make things right. And at this point, I feel that is going to be honored. We have had other stove manufacturers have problem cracks etc, posted here, and seen that they took care of them. If welds fix it, and hold this time around. I am fine with that. I do expect them to be ground out and re-welded properly. As for the face cracks, they will have to also grind them out and fill with weld, then grind smooth & repaint. I know a few things about this, and will make sure its done right. Any welder with work pride and worth his salt, already knows these things.
So I am sure they are aware of the stoves here with problems. But sounds like dealers play a roll in warranty repairs.
PE is stepping up as far as I can tell to this point. 
Cory was easy to deal with, and that makes it that much less frustrating, and I appreciate that. The dealer............... we shall see.

PS. Oh, i did forget to talk to him about the baffle, but sent him photos of that also, and advised my concern.


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## Sisu (Oct 10, 2009)

I did speak with PE and posed the question about the 5 year comprehensive warranty.  I spoke with Naomi from PE and she took the time to listen.  She couldn't answer whether or not the comprehensive would include the replacement of the firebox, so she said I need to speak to Cory.  I am assuming that is the same Cory that Hog spoke to.  She did say that Cory was the one that would have made the decision for the repair.  

However, he was in a meeting and since it was the end of the day there, I didn't get a call back yet.  She said if he doesn't call today, that he will call back on Tuesday.  So I will wait until Tuesday to see what he thinks.  

I agree Hog that I do think that PE will honour the warranty (whether replacement or repair).  Technically, they already have, since the repair has been authorized.  However, it does not seem that the cracks are isolated incidents and it could be that they are indeed defects, covered as per the 5 year comprehensive warranty.  Especially, considering that a number of posters here are experiencing the same issue and the fact we are a small sampling of the actual number of PE owners out there.  

Now that questions have been raised about the 5 year comprehensive, I would like an official answer whether it would apply to us.  To me, removing the unit and sending it to the dealership is an inconvenience.  Impossible no, but still a pain.  Also, I have concerns with the uncertainty of the existing welds in the firebox.  I am sure that a good welder can adequately repair the faulty welds.  However, what about the other original welds?  Will they crack too?  I know there is uncertainty to everything.  I just don't want to have to revisit this process ever again.  I don't want to ask for the moon either, I just want to make things right.  

Karl has a good point too.  The original firebox might be better conditioned than a new one.

It sounds like you had a better experience and quicker time dealing with the warranty claim.  The dealer went straight to PE and then you then dealt with PE directly.  You didn't have to rely and wait on your dealer to disseminate information to you.  Therefore, you promptly had an answer.  

I still have a bit of a bad taste in my mouth about the my outcome, so far.  I think that dealing with three different parties makes things convoluted and inefficient.  At the start of this process, my dealer contact kept assuring me that he checks his email constantly and would contact me as soon as he received any information.  So I feel a bit taken by him also.  Getting me to return the firebox and rewelding it might be the easy way out for the dealer and distributor.  

Now that PE is aware of this thread, hopefully they will have better insight and emapthy to issues we have experienced.  If there is anything constructive that they can learn about improving the design of the product and the warranty process, hopefully they will fix it.  They should also realize that we want to continue to be loyal PE customers!


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## BrotherBart (Oct 10, 2009)

Too easy to look like I am fanning a fire by even commenting on this situation but I have to say that PE's warranty always did impress me because it is the only one that I have ever seen for a wood stove that didn't have the "you are responsible for returning it for repair or replacement" crap in it.

They just flat say they will replace what breaks. Except for over firing. And if you do a lot of digging here you will find that post where a Summit owner called them and they said 900 wasn't over firing and wouldn't hurt the stove. Which I thought was nuts at the time and still do.


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## Hogwildz (Oct 10, 2009)

Sisu said:
			
		

> I did speak with PE and posed the question about the 5 year comprehensive warranty.  I spoke with Naomi from PE and she took the time to listen.  She couldn't answer whether or not the comprehensive would include the replacement of the firebox, so she said I need to speak to Cory.  I am assuming that is the same Cory that Hog spoke to.  She did say that Cory was the one that would have made the decision for the repair.
> 
> However, he was in a meeting and since it was the end of the day there, I didn't get a call back yet.  She said if he doesn't call today, that he will call back on Tuesday.  So I will wait until Tuesday to see what he thinks.
> 
> ...



I feel if the cracks are prepared and re-welded properly, hopefully that will end the problems. If the cracks happen again or in another weld, then the lifetime warranty should cover it.
Yes it is an inconvenience, but may be one we may have to deal with. I still want to see, and suggest maybe the same for you, if a welder can bring portable equipment on his truck and weld it where it sits in place. With proper floor protection etc. If its even possible. I know my neighbor used to drive a truck with a generator & welder on the bed. Long leads let him get to a lot of places without having to move stuff. As I said, he is a Union Ironworker, welding for 25 to 30 years, and I will ask, but I am sure he has to be certified to keep his job. I will have him look, ask his advice on the welds that failed, look at the other welds, and see how much to make them right. If he can do it while in place, I will push the dealer to ok that. I don't want to make a buck at all, they can pay him direct. I just want it fixed right. In the end, I too must deal with the dealer, but Cory assured me he would get the dealer on the ball. Cory made my frustration & worry a bit less after talking with him. That is a plus when dealing with any manufacturer. When I get this resolved, and the Summit fired up again, I will post a pic, and praise for PE. Till then I still love the stove, and try and keep an optimistic view, unless proven otherwise. I can see maybe putting the initial warranty call/claim in to the dealer, but really think the manufacturer should handle the rest of the support of their product. There are just too many dealers that want to make the cash from the sale, and hope to never hear from the customer again, unless it involves making more money.


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## minesmoria (Oct 11, 2009)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> Oh well, more crap to post , uggg ugggg




My stove has a crack on the top outside just like your stove!


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## Hogwildz (Oct 11, 2009)

minesmoria said:
			
		

> Hogwildz said:
> 
> 
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When did you purchase?
Seems most of us bought within about a year span. Trying to see if its maybe a time frame of production that is experiencing these problems.
Call your dealer and out a warranty claim in. Post some photos plz.


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## minesmoria (Oct 11, 2009)

The stove is around three years old, those weld joints are so small. The welded joints should be  double or tripple welded  thann this would not happen.

what did pe they say about your claim.


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## Hogwildz (Oct 11, 2009)

minesmoria said:
			
		

> The stove is around three years old, those weld joints are so small. The welded joints should be  double or tripple welded  thann this would not happen.
> 
> what did pe they say about your claim.



They told me I would here from the dealer. It sounds like they will repair it. Which would call for a welder to grind the old welds and reweld. The face will need welded, ground smooth and painted.


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## greythorn3 (Oct 11, 2009)

keep at them feral swine, youll get it taken care of forsure!


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## Hogwildz (Oct 11, 2009)

greythorn3 said:
			
		

> keep at them feral swine, youll get it taken care of forsure!


PE rep basically told me I have a legitimate claim.
Now it is up to the dealer to get ahold f me and let me know whats next. If I don't here from him this week, I'll be Calling Cory at PE again.


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## Sisu (Oct 12, 2009)

minesmoria said:
			
		

> The stove is around three years old, those weld joints are so small. The welded joints should be  double or tripple welded  thann this would not happen.
> 
> what did pe they say about your claim.



Can you post some pictures of the cracks for all of us to see?  Currently, I was told by my dealership that they will get the firebox rewelded.  However, I have to remove the stove and get the stove to them myself, which is more of a problem now that my truck died this weekend.  Also the question has arisen that if these are "defects" then shouldn't the 5 year comprehensive warranty apply?  Therefore, parts, labour and replacement should be covered, including the removal and transport.

I am currently waiting to talk to PE in this regard, as my stove was purchased in 2005.  If the firebox cracks are repaired by the dealership, I don't think the welder is going to beef up all the other welds.  These welds could potentially be sub par too.  I am starting to lean towards "replacement" as a better option.


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## Hogwildz (Oct 13, 2009)

Sisu said:
			
		

> minesmoria said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I would tell the dealer to get a mobile welding outfit to come there and fix it. Thats what I am going to push for. You know if you get a new insert, everyone is going to want one 
And your still going to have to pull that one out and pick up the new one.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 13, 2009)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> And your still going to have to pull that one out and pick up the new one.



Been there and done that with another brand. Painful. Which I seem to remember you getting a few chuckles from.  :coolsmirk:


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## Hogwildz (Oct 13, 2009)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Hogwildz said:
> 
> 
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Spoke with my neighbor today> Confirmed as a member and working in the Ironworker's Union, he has been welding for 25+years. He confirmed my thoughts, that the weld is much stronger than the plate steel, and the steel should warp & or fail before the welds. The cracks down the center of the welds is the tell all. He just finished a continuing education test to keep his certification. He is coming over tomorrow to look at the welds.
If I set up a 220 outlet for his welder, he has a 220 rated extension cord for his welder that he can repair the welds right where she sits. IF/WHEN the dealer calls, I will tell him it must be fixed in place where it sits.
I don't want a cent from this, I merely want my insert fixed correctly, and be able to burn soon. I bet my neighbor will do it cheaper than a local outfit coming in with a mobile set up. They can pay him directly. I just want my insert ready to burn. It was hard enough getting it into my sunken living room, I ain't pulling it back out.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 13, 2009)

Sounds like the best way. Hog. I pulled the 650 pounder out, put the 455 pounder in and pulled it out and put the other 455 in. Took my old knees over a year to somewhat recover. Not even considering in and out of the truck.

Removing the bricks and doors doesn't seem to make it hurt any less. Get that neighbor cranking bro. Better than the new kid it at Smokin Joe's House of Welding and Hot Tub Repair for sure. If the old stove had not been cracked in the back under the shroud that is what I would have done and it would still be burning.


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## Hogwildz (Oct 13, 2009)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Sounds like the best way. Hog. I pulled the 650 pounder out, put the 455 pounder in and pulled it out and put the other 455 in. Took my old knees over a year to somewhat recover. Not even considering in and out of the truck.
> 
> Removing the bricks and doors doesn't seem to make it hurt any less. Get that neighbor cranking bro. Better than the new kid it at Smokin Joe's House of Welding and Hot Tub Repair for sure. If the old stove had not been cracked in the back under the shroud that is what I would have done and it would still be burning.


My back hurts just thinking of moving that insert out.
I drug it off my pick up, across the porch, down into the living room down thank god only 2 steps, and slide it in the old firebox myself. My back was toast for a couple weeks after that.
There is just no way I can get it back up those steps and into the truck myself. Well, If i was motivated enough, I might be able to, but I don't want to be motivated enough. I don't even want to disconnect the liner.
I have one of those cheap induct fans I bought before I bought  a couple real deal ones, I can prolly take an extension cord, take the chimney cap off, mount the fan on top of stack and let it ventilate most of the welding smoke out through the stack. My neighbor says no problem doing it where it sits. I had him weld my plow, and he is  perfectionist. Even looked at me funny when I told him I was not concerned about painting the fresh grinds & welds on the old 20+ year old plow LOL. He will do a top notch job, that I am very sure off. Worst comes to worst, I'll just have him do it and f the dealer.


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## Wacky1 (Oct 13, 2009)

Is this all from overfiring and if so what temp are they saying is too hot???


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## Hogwildz (Oct 13, 2009)

The manufacturer rep I spoke with didn't even mention over firing. 
It seems there are 4 or 5 members here, all purchased their PE's within the same time period. Having the same issues. Too many for coincidence to me. I still have faith in PE. But the dealer has not earned that yet.
I'm thinking bad welding supplies, or maybe a welder that was not paying attention. Not putting blame, but this many stoves, not to mention others out there that don't know about it or mention it, prolly more.
I am confident I have not overfired my insert. Anyone here knows it is my pride & joy, I love it and take very good care of it. As I am sure most others also do.
He never even mentioned an over fire temp. He did mention they had a couple folks that used their stoves "hard".


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## Frostbit (Oct 13, 2009)

I think you're on the right track getting a welder that knows his stuff to do the job. Its a perfect match, seeing how he is conveniently located next door. Considering the difficulty pulling the stove, heck, I would gladly pay him what he wants and if PE is what we still currently think they are, they'll just cut you a check for the guys time, which you can give to him along with a case of his favorite beverage. 

Who knows, if you're like most neighbors, there is always something you have talents at that he can use someday. 

Like someone else posting, for piece of mind, if he does it, its right. You take the stove to the dealer and they send it down the street to Joes Garage and the Hector the tire changer does it, you don't know what you have after the slag is ground off and black paint covers it all up. 

Good luck and be sure to let us know how it turns out.


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## Sisu (Oct 13, 2009)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> Sisu said:
> 
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Yeah, I still want to see what PE says, since they are the ones who make the final decisions and pick up the tab.  Like others have posted, I am a bit weary of sending it remotely to the welder, since my confidence isn't that high right now with the dealer.  I don't know who the welder is they use and if they will properly reweld the defects.  Also, like what has been posted, once the paint is applied, any defects not repaired might not be seen.  The dealer contact also stated that the firebox won't be removed from the metal shell, so any welds that are currently inaccessible will not be inspected.  

A remote welder sounds like another option.  But unless they contain the area to vent outside, I would be worried about the welding fumes and paint vapours in the house.  I have two little ones in our house that I definitely don't want exposed.  

Hopefully, PE will contact me today and these issues will be resolved.  I will post as soon as I know!


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## meathead (Oct 13, 2009)

Sisu said:
			
		

> The dealer contact also stated that the firebox won't be removed from the metal shell, so any welds that are currently inaccessible will not be inspected.
> 
> Hopefully, PE will contact me today and these issues will be resolved.  I will post as soon as I know!



The "dealer contact" sold you a faulty stove...less than 5 yrs ago...doesn't the warranty on these things claim that for 5 yrs everything is covered, and only after 5 yrs you have to bring it in to get any warranty work done? 

Either way, the "dealer contact" sold you a faulty stove. You want it fully inspected, and you want to know the repairs are good. Tell him that's what is going to be done, or he can bring you a new stove and solve the problem that way. Sounds like you can't really trust your dealer to do anything right, so you're going to need to be there or at least get pics to know that they bothered to inspect anything. I wouldn't be surprised at all to hear a place like this just slopped a little more steel over the cracks and ground it down and painted it. Hopefully PE will step in and resolve it all for you. You paid for a good stove and got a bad one - you shouldn't have to spend hours of your time bringing it back to the place that sold it to you to get it fixed. All businesses make mistakes - good ones make them right without asking the customer to do some of the work. 

And don't worry about the fumes from the welder or paint. Have it done when the kids aren't home and crack the windows for a couple hours.


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## Frostbit (Oct 13, 2009)

I can fully understand manufacturers of products wanting the item returned to the dealer for warranty, such as an automobile or appliance. But in the case of these heavy stoves, I think the dealer needs to be a little more understanding and consider where they are placed. I doubt the average stove dealer has any expertise in welding and fabrication, so when a customer comes forth and says he can find someone willing to do it where it sits, they ought to be willing to entertain that option.


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## CK-1 (Oct 13, 2009)

meathead said:
			
		

> Sisu said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree..   Removing and transporting the stove due to welding defects (covered by warrently) wouldn't be an option.   You will have to do it all over again when you bring it back home...

No way..


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## Wacky1 (Oct 14, 2009)

Has anyone found out if you have the firebox  cracks rewelded, does it still remain in the lifetime warranty if this should happen again???  I would wonder about other welds cracking too.   The ones you cannot see.  And just when does the warranty require replacement of the firebox??  After the 2nd weld failure???


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## Sisu (Oct 14, 2009)

Update to the timeline:

*Monday October 13, 2009* - I called Cory the warranty guy for PE.  We had a good chat and I told him the issues while asking about the 5 year comprehensive in regard to the removal of the firebox.  He asked who my dealer was, along with the dealer contact's name, and said he will give them a call.  I also mentioned that he should read this thread, just because it better explains everything, if he hadn't already.  He just said that he had heard snippets of the thread and asked if I could email the link, which I did.  

About a half hour later I got a call from my dealer contact, who was very apologetic and stated that he did not know about the 5 year warranty....???!?  He took down all my contact information again, and stated that dealership will remove, transport and repair the firebox.  I just have to wait for their technical service guy to call me to schedule the time.  I am hoping it will be tomorrow.  

Well the clouds have parted a bit and I can see some sun now.   I have Karl and BrotherBart to thank for giving me the heads up in regard to the 5 year comprehensive warranty!  I am fairly satisfied the outcome so far.  No new stove, but the next best thing hopefully.  I am still a bit weary of having the same firebox, but if the rewelds are done right it should be as good as a 4 year old stove with some new welds.  Hopefully, it will be a bit better.  I knew I should have used creosete logs to heat up my uninsulated chicken coup?!   

Wacky1, I did ask about the lifetime warranty in regard to a repaired firebox, to PE.  They stated that they will honour the warranty still.  I just hope I don't get any more cracking issues again, because my 5 year comprehensive warranty will be gone as of 2010.  After that, I am assuming I will have to pull out the insert myself...  If that happens, PE will really hear about it.

I tried to pm you too Hog and I think the pm is broken right now, because I cannot send any messages.   I will keep everyone posted on what happens next.  I will take some pictures of the insert, once it has been returned.  

It is going to +1 Celsius tonight and -4 Celsius by Friday.  Hopefully, the turn around will be fairly quick!


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## Hogwildz (Oct 14, 2009)

I too also tried to PM you and others. PM on my end is NOT working AT ALL!! Hint hint to mods. 

I got a call from the dealer today. Apparently Cory kept his word on contacting dealer and moving things along.  The dealer explained PE requested the possibility of a mobile welder to come here and weld it where she sits.
Hmm, wonder if Cory has been lurking and reading  Thanks Cory
Dealer said, otherwise he would have to come remove it and take to welding shop. And was honest that it would cost more to do that, than have a mobile welder set up come and repair here.
I advised  the dealer about my neighbor, and he was cool with that. I told him my neighbor might be able to do it cheaper than the local welder also. I am sure he is happy about that. I explained, I do not want to make a dime on this, only get it fixed right ASAP as its getting colder here. Neighbor came over today and looked at it. Said no problem. He feels the outer corners of the knife edge on the opposite sides of the upper cracks should be welded on the outside also. That there is just not enough weld in the small area. He is going to repair the cracked welds on the inside and also weld the outer corner edges on the opposite side. He said grinding it smooth will not leave much weld left for strength, so I said when the door is shut you can't see it anyways, so no need to grind that part smooth for appearance. The face welds will have to be "V"'d out with a burring tool, since there is no room to get a grinder in there to v it. I was thinking maybe my Dremmel could do it just as well with a grinding bit on the end. I'm thinking one of my chainsaw chain sharpening stones for the Dremmel would do real nice there.
Only problem is, apparently being a Union guy, he goes to work and when the job is done, if they run out of work, he goes to the hall, and gets hooked up with another outfit & so on & so on. Well he no longer has the truck with generator, welder & long leads on it. He has a good welder in his garage, but I will need to install a 220 circuit and receptacle, but not sure if he has a long enough 22o rated extension cord. So I might have to have dealer bring in the mobile unit he uses. I'm cool with it wither way, just want it done. I figured my neighbor has been slow with work, I could help him out, help myself in the process by getting it done by someone I know, and help save the dealer & PE some cash. The dealer also was honest and explained it come out of his pocket, then takes anywhere from 6 months to 1 year to get reimbursed. Not sure if he is talking about problems he had with VC at one time or not.He said PE has a good rep in the business, and he never had a problem before. I advised several members buying in the same time periods are having problems. He said some time certain conditions, steel from other sources etc etc, can happen and a bad batch may come out. Hot common, but can happen in almost any industry. He said he has a problem with Vermont Castings Cast Iron stoves years back. He said he thought for a while they were not using the foundry castings, ot maybe using foreign steel or something and had a group of bad stoves. Apparently VC changed back or made some kind of changes to remedy that problem.

At this point, so far, I am very please with PE & the dealer in what I consider a pretty fairly quick response time, honoring the warranty they have, and the attitude of all parties involved has been kind, friendly, light and easy to deal with. No finger pointing, no bad attitudes, and no blame right off the bat to me and the word overfiring. I was very worried that would be used as an excuse and shoved down my throat. Didn't happen.
Dealer is going to call in a day or so after he calls the welding shop for a price to come out & repair. I will then see if my neighbor can do it, maybe cheaper, and then have one or the other come repair the insert.
I did not hear anything back about the baffle. I will ask. But right now, I want to get the welds fixed and if need be, I'll use this baffle until/unless it gets worse. I forgot to mention it ti Cory, and the email with photos I sent him are being bounced back by their server. I Don't thinki its PE, I have this problem once in a while even with work. My satellite internet uses google based email, and apparently some other email servers reject it due to spam problems.

I'll keep everything posted as it happens.

Cory, thanks again if your reading, and send a new baffle


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## madrone (Oct 14, 2009)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> The face welds will have to be "V"'d out with a burring tool, since there is no room to get a grinder in there to v it. I was thinking maybe my Dremmel could do it just as well with a grinding bit on the end. I'm thinking one of my chainsaw chain sharpening stones for the Dremmel would do real nice there.



Dremel's a little wimpy for this application. Die grinder with a carbide burr would be preferable. I'd agree based on the pics that rewelding should be relatively straightforward, and remain problem free if done well.
Glad to hear it's being worked out. I'll go back to dreaming of a Vista Classic...


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## Bigg_Redd (Oct 14, 2009)

And everyone lived happily ever after.

In your faces all you PE doubters/haters!  In your face!


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## Wacky1 (Oct 14, 2009)

Sisu said:
			
		

> Update to the timeline:
> 
> *Monday October 13, 2009* - I called Cory the warranty guy for PE.  We had a good chat and I told him the issues while asking about the 5 year comprehensive in regard to the removal of the firebox.  He asked who my dealer was, along with the dealer contact's name, and said he will give them a call.  I also mentioned that he should read this thread, just because it better explains everything, if he hadn't already.  He just said that he had heard snippets of the thread and asked if I could email the link, which I did.
> 
> ...








Good deal!!  This is going to be comforting to know they stand behind their product!!  Not to mention good advertising for them ;-)


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## BrotherBart (Oct 14, 2009)

Bigg_Redd said:
			
		

> And everyone lived happily ever after.
> 
> In your faces all you PE doubters/haters!  In your face!



Who are the PE doubters/haters? Even the people on here that don't have one seem to speak highly of them. Unlike one guy who badmouths soapstone stoves.  :lol:


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## Wacky1 (Oct 15, 2009)

How can you overfire an insert that has an optional screen to run with the door open??


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## BrotherBart (Oct 15, 2009)

Wacky1 said:
			
		

> How can you overfire an insert that has an optional screen to run with the door open??



Any stove I have/have had that I burned with a screen and the door open never even got up to normal operating temp. Too much cool air rushing right into it and up the flue. Just like a fireplace. To warm the stove and the house up I always had to close the door.

That is why I quit using screens.


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## Sisu (Oct 15, 2009)

Update:
*Wednesday, October 14, 2009:*

I received a call from the service guy from the dealership.  He said that they will come and take the stove Friday afternoon.  I asked if I need to do anything (ie. remove the panel, etc.).  He said that they will do everything!    The welder won't be able to see the firebox until Monday.  But hopefully it won't take too long!

A note to the mods:  I am still unable to send Private Messages.  I get the error message "_You are only allowed to send a Private Message every 30 seconds"_  I think Hog is having the same problem.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 15, 2009)

Sisu said:
			
		

> A note to the mods:  I am still unable to send Private Messages.  I get the error message "_You are only allowed to send a Private Message every 30 seconds"_  I think Hog is having the same problem.



Send a note to the webmaster. He is the only one that can address software issues.


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## Hogwildz (Oct 15, 2009)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Sisu said:
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If we can't PM< how the heck are we gonna send him a note?


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## crazy_dan (Oct 15, 2009)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> BrotherBart said:
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> 
> ...



1: get a piece of paper
2: get a pencil
3 write down your thoughts
4: place written on piece of paper in an envelope 
5 seal envelope
6: put webmaster's name and address on envelope
7: put stamp on envelope
8: put in mail box
9: put the flag up

The post office not just for bills anymore  ;-P


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## Hogwildz (Oct 15, 2009)

crazy_dan said:
			
		

> Hogwildz said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thats not a note, notes are free, thats a letter & postage


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## crazy_dan (Oct 15, 2009)

So what you are wanting to do is send a memo.
could ya just fax it?, or e-mail it? call him on the phone?
yell it from the cooling tower? figure it is probably the highest point around ya. I know ours is for us.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 15, 2009)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> BrotherBart said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



When you click on his name the item above "PM" is "EMAIL". Send him an email. Failing that send an email to webmaster AT hearth.com.


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## Sisu (Oct 19, 2009)

Hey Everyone,

Just a quick update.  The dealer service guy was here this past Friday October 16, 2009 and took the firebox.  He had a good look at the stove and I identified all the areas that I observed with the cracks.  One interesting comment is that he said that the unit did not look like it was overfired, due to the fact the side rails, insulation and other parts of the unit (other than the baffle) were in perfect shape.  He also runs a PE Pacific insert, but his is only two years old.  

So it should be in the welder's hands now and hopefully it won't be too hard of a job.  I am not sure if I should install a block off plate, now that the unit is out.  The insert is in the basement fireplace and the fireplace is constructed masonry block, with a field stove exterior.   The masonry extends to the ground floor, where another fireplace is holding a gas insert.  The whole construction is internal, located at about 1/3 the length of the house (a bungalow) and extends up close to the center peak of the roof.  Currently the void around the liner at fireplace is stuffed with Roxul insulation. 

Past winters, the stove would heat the chimney extending to the ground floor, radiating some of the heat.  I am not sure if the block-off plate would be more efficient use of the heat, since I am trying to get the heat to the ground floor.  What do you think?


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## CK-1 (Oct 19, 2009)

Sisu said:
			
		

> Hey Everyone,
> 
> Just a quick update.  The dealer service guy was here this past Friday October 16, 2009 and took the firebox.  He had a good look at the stove and I identified all the areas that I observed with the cracks.  One interesting comment is that he said that the unit did not look like it was overfired, due to the fact the side rails, insulation and other parts of the unit (other than the baffle) were in perfect shape.  He also runs a PE Pacific insert, but his is only two years old.
> 
> ...



Its good that the ball is now rolling to get these stoves fixed.   Before you handed over your firebox, did you mark the cracks on the stove?..   Reason is..  the service guy isn't welding your stove.   See if you can atleast inspect the stove at the welders shop when its done.


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## Sisu (Oct 19, 2009)

CK-1 said:
			
		

> Sisu said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I didn't mark the areas, but I identified all the areas in need of repair with the dealer service guy.  I asked if I should mark the areas, but he assured me that the welder will clean, inspect and repair all the spots.  As the welder is pretty far away, I don't think I will be able to inspect the firebox, until it gets back to me.  Rest assured though, I will inspect it before it is unloaded from the van and will send it back if the repairs are not complete.

Any advice about installing a block-off plate?


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## Hogwildz (Oct 19, 2009)

Sisu said:
			
		

> CK-1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Usually a block off plate is recommended. But in your case, your taking advantage of the heat being absorbed by the stone & radiating upstairs from the basement.
If you don't use the gas fireplace upstairs, You might want to put a block off plate on the upper firebox to keep the heat from traveling any further. Is this an interior or exterior chimney?
You might be losing heat to the outside through the stone. Might want to compare if the heat will raise better on its own through the doorway to the basement as opposed to the stone upstairs radiating it out, but also radiating it to the outdoors?


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## Sisu (Oct 19, 2009)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> Sisu said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It is an interior chimney.  It is as old as the house, built in 1960.  It is quite large and has three separate individual flues, one for the downstairs fireplace, the second for the groundfloor fireplace, and third for the gas furnace and water heater exhaust.  All are capped and sealed at the top of the chimney.  The only cold zones it encounters is where it protrudes into the attic and out the roof.  

I rarely ever use the gas fireplace, but I want the heat from the woodstove to travel to the groundfloor.  Probably be to have the woodstove insert on the groundfloor.  However, I don't want to have to deal with the moving of gaslines and this was the configuration when we bought the house.  Also, it is finished basement.  We use the basement den where the woodstove insert is, so the heat is nice there. 

I did notice during the last burning days this spring that when the downstairs wood insert was running, heated air was noticable within the groundfloor fireplace firebox area and flue, when I removed the surround from the gas insert.  The inside masonry and air was warm in the groundfloor fireplace, even though they occupy separate flues.   I also noticed that there was no insulation around the void of the gas insert liner, so I filled the void with Roxul insulation.  I am not sure if that was beneficial or will it just trap the heated air in the chimney flue and prevent it from entering the groundfloor.

I guess my question is two-fold.  1. Block-off plate or just leave it stuffed with Roxul and let the heat radiate from the chimney; and 2. Should the groundfloor gas insert have insulation around the liner?


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## Sisu (Oct 27, 2009)

Just another update.  I phoned the dealer on Friday to find out if the welder had repaired the firebox yet.  They didn't know, but being the end of day, they said that they would phone the welder on Monday.  I called the dealer twice on Monday and finally spoke to the person I had contacted on Friday.  She stated that the welder hasn't touched it yet.   She did say that their service guy will have a word with the welder today, to see if things can be expedited.  

Hopefully, I will hear some good news soon.  I am going through some wood-heat withdrawls?!


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## madrone (Oct 28, 2009)

Have sisu, Sisu!


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## Zzyk (Oct 28, 2009)

Thanks for keeping us all up to date on this situation.  I was within a couple of days of buying 2 more pacific stoves (a second for me, one for my brother) and this has given me pause.  The only reason I didn't buy them yet was probelms with the dealer.

Thanks again


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## Sisu (Oct 28, 2009)

madrone said:
			
		

> Have sisu, Sisu!



Kippis!  It is my sisu that is hopefully getting me through this process.


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## Sisu (Oct 28, 2009)

Zzyk said:
			
		

> Thanks for keeping us all up to date on this situation.  I was within a couple of days of buying 2 more pacific stoves (a second for me, one for my brother) and this has given me pause.  The only reason I didn't buy them yet was probelms with the dealer.
> 
> Thanks again



No problem!  I just got off the phone with the dealership.  The service tech guy (Herb) who removed my stove has been away sick and won't probably be back until next week.  I hope he is okay, as he was a nice guy to deal with.  The other contact (Lynne) I spoke with said that she has spoken with the welder  who is ready to do it today and wants to know the spots requiring repair.  I verbally gave her the locations of the cracks.  I just hope that will suffice.  I offered to send pictures via email, but she said it wouldn't help the welder (he probably doesn't have email).  She then said she would call back with the quote from the welder.  That is when I told her that the stove was less than 5 years old and is under warranty.  I guess that information wasn't given to her.  She said that she will get the welder on the job asap.

Both Herb and Lynne have been great compared to the first dealer contact I dealt with.  However, it seems that the more people that get involved, the more things get convoluted, information gets lost, and things seem to take a lot longer.  Anyways, I am still trying to be patient.  I am just kicking myself for not chalking the cracks before having the stove removed.  I hope the welder goes over the stove thoroughly.  

I am not sure how other stove manufacturers deal with their warranties.  PE definitely stands by theirs, it is just having to deal with dealership, distributor, etc. that doesn't make the warranty claim as seamless and quick as it could be.


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## 53flyer (Oct 28, 2009)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> karl said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ok, going a bit "backwards" I guess but this "replacement" point was brought up a few times then apparently dismissed and I'm wondering if it was ever brought up to Cory at PE. I realize that both Sisu & Hog seem to be happy irt getting their stoves welded *but...* I'm still having a problem with the warranty coverage because if the warranty says "Pacific Energy will *replace *any part found to be defective (parts and labor) for five years from the date of purchase." why aren't they *replacing *the stoves??? I also agree with points brought up stating that if these welds are bad there's a very good chance that other (non-visible) welds are bad as well so how does fixing the "seen" welds do anything to fix the potentially broken unseen ones? Again, if the warranty says "replace" why aren't they doing so? I'm very interested in this because I too have been considering a PE stove and the warranty was a big factor and one that is highlighted as "The industry's Best" in their stove brochures. I'm having trouble in my head thinking is thin a stove that I'll have to go through a drawn out repair process once or perhaps 2 or 3 times if the problem were to continue? Do you get a fresh 5yr where parts AND labor are covered after the repair work is done or if the repairs fail in 3yrs will you have to pay for labor?... 

Additionally, my local dealer stated that even though "lifetime warranty" is legally only 7yrs in WA State that PE honored it as "lifetime". Then I read your posts stating the "5yr" warranty time-frame which got me wondering *"just how long IS the warranty?"*. I realize that it actually says "Limited" Lifetime Warranty but the dealer was adamant that PE honored their product to the "Nth" degree. Yes, the dealer obviously wants to make a sale but from both a moral AND "legal" standpoint they shouldn't be throwing around extremely false information. 

Ok, I found the area on PE's website that state's their warranty is 5yr comprehensive (includes parts & labor) http://pacificenergy.net/warranty.php. Apparently, if these cracks occurred (or weren't discovered till) after 5yrs the customer would be responsible for labor (removal, reinstall, etc)??? The cracks are defects and it really shouldn't matter if it was before or after 5 yrs should it? There's also some contradictory information on that warranty pg. Specifically, look below at the two bold areas:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
5 Year Comprehensive
*Pacific Energy will replace any part found to be defective (parts and labor) for five years from the date of purchase. * This coverage includes electrical components (blowers, speed controls and thermal switches).

CONDITIONS 

For wood products – All installations must be installed according to all applicable local and national codes. It is the responsibility of the installer to ensure the unit is operating correctly at installation. 

*Any part that shows in our judgment evidence of defect shall be repaired, replaced or refunded at Pacific Energy’s option.* The defective part may be required to be returned to Pacific Energy or an accredited agent, transportation prepaid. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
You can't say any defective part will be replaced (period) under the 5 Year heading *then say* a defective part will be repaired, replaced, or refunded a few paragraphs down because both conditions can't really occur "at the same time".  I.e. if you're within 5yrs and it's defective the 5 Year statement assures it will be replaced (period). Assuming that statement is truthful, the follow on statement shouldn't be contradictory to that (or vice versa). Either change the 5 Year statement to say "repaired, replaced or refunded" just like it says under conditions *OR* remove the condition statement and relocate it to warranty conditions "outside" the 5yr window.

Anyway, a rant I suppose but I can't stand it when policies, warranties, etc., are made in such contradictory ways. In fact I believe that type of contradiction opens them up for being forced to comply with the stricter version of the contradictory statements under the "reasonable man" standard of the law irt an average person's interpretation, expectation, etc. of a given item.

End of rant. Sorry.


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## 53flyer (Oct 28, 2009)

meathead said:
			
		

> I've read hundreds of posts by well pleased PE owners. My two best friends have PE inserts and they love them. My my PE dealer has been a local yokel for 25 years and has been dealing PEs for over 10 of those years without seeing one serious failure on a PE stove. Pardon me if I'm not impressed by a few cracks that do not appear to affect the utility of the stove in any way.



Just a quick few additions. The above post struck a nerve with me because to assume that just because your dealer hasn't seen a serious failure *in no way* indicates they're not occurring... Heck, 50 of the stoves the dealer sold may be damaged and your 2 best friends "could" have the problem and not even know it as well (unless they do regular "detailed" inspections). How big a percentage of all PE owners do we assume actually look close enough to even have the potential of finding these problems?  How many of those would even realize it "was" a problem (it's less than you might assume).  Heck, even Hog rutinely checked his and quite possibly was missing the defect during 1 or 2 of his inspections and he sounds like a fairly detailed checker.  Anyway, the point is that just like with anything that actually gets reported (many more occurrences are going *unreported*).

BTW, what ever happened to Karl (post 90), and minesmoria (post 133) and their problems?

Also, can everyone else see all the pics in this thread? All I see is a statement saying: 
"Image Attachments
Click thumbnail to see full-size image"
However, there is no thumbnail to click on and I see no pics. In other threads I have a similar problem but sometimes a few pics will actually show up (but never all of them). Any ideas?  Thanks


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## Sisu (Oct 28, 2009)

I agree 100 percent.  Especially since I just spoke to the  welder over the phone, to go over all the spots that required repair.  Right away, he said that the corner door rim weld that gave away because it did not have enough penetration.  He also said that he noticed other welds (that I did not observe) were sunk (ie. shoddy).  He also said that they are welded as they are put together and that the repairs are going to be tough.  The door rim cracked steel will have to be ground out and welded, making for a shoddy look possibly.  

I told him that this stove is under warranty and if there is anything that he can't fix properly to let my dealer know.  I spoke with Lynne and she is okay with that and said that they would get PE to replace it if repairs cannot be made. 

Herb the service tech guy already stated that the stove did not look overfired.  The welder has commented (like other posters here) about shoddy welds.  And I do not want to have to rip the stove out again, if the repairs are unsatisfactory.  Also, the 5 year warranty is almost up, so if I have to rip it out again, it will be on my dime.  

I think I should contact Cory from PE just to see what he thinks.


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## crazy_dan (Oct 28, 2009)

I see the pictures just fine.

Also you never know how many people are like me and would just the the cracks up my self since I have the equipment and know how to do that. I figure it would be easier to just do it where it sits VS haveing to take it some where and maybe get inferior work. I feel I will put a little more care and attention to detail since it is me and mine at risk.


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## 53flyer (Oct 28, 2009)

Sisu said:
			
		

> I agree 100 percent...Right away, he said that the corner door rim weld that gave away because it did not have enough penetration...said that he noticed other welds (that I did not observe) were sunk (ie. shoddy). He also said that they are welded as they are put together and that the repairs are going to be tough. The door rim cracked steel will have to be ground out and welded, making for a shoddy look possibly.
> 
> I told him that this stove is under warranty and if there is anything that he can't fix properly to let my dealer know. I spoke with Lynne and she is okay with that and said that they would get PE to replace it if repairs cannot be made.
> 
> ...



Sisu- Quite honestly this seems like something that needs to be replaced (especially given what the welder said). The service guy saying it it didn't look overfired is a good point but less important to me only from the perspective that if PE doesn't give specific parameters that constitute "overfiring" then they shouldn't be able to say "you overfired it"... 

I actually called PE directly (today) to discuss the concerns I have as a potential customer after seeing these problems (both manufacturing & warranty) pop up on this forum and considering the number of problems that are indicated to exist among all their stoves given this websites relatively small statistical sample size (as discussed in posts 178-80). They should feel more pressure to resolve these issues as more and more people contact them who either have the problem or have heard of the problem. The internet is a great resource for consumers and can be good *OR* bad for manufacturers depending on how they treat said customers (and "potential" customers). A bad reputation can start and spread quickly if allowed to get out of control and although I believe they're still holding onto a decent reputation with you and Hog I believe they've come close a few times and the problem isn't fixed yet either. 

crazy_dan- That's exactly right in that you'd be part of yet another percentage of the people who found the problem but didn't report it because they fixed it themselves... When did you get your stove? Any issues so far with the box or the baffle? Dealers say they've never had an issue with the baffles either but right here we have some people who've had theirs warp.


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## meathead (Oct 29, 2009)

53flyer said:
			
		

> Bigg_Redd said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hey...I never said that...

I think you formatted your quote wrong


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## Sisu (Oct 29, 2009)

I think 53 Flyer was trying to quote Bigg Redd.

I just spoke with Lynne from the dealership via the phone.  She stated the welder does not think he can get at the internal cracks.  Lynne is going try to process the claim for replacement of the unit via distributor.  

I tried calling Cory from PE yesterday, but he wasn't at work unfortunately.  I think this information coming from the welder and dealer will help the warranty claim.  I will keep you posted on what happens.


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## tradergordo (Oct 29, 2009)

The more important question is - why are the welds so bad?  And how many PE stoves out there have similar shoddy welds?  This seems like something people may not notice right away, and we already have more than one person here with the problem.  The welds in the pictures you guys posted here look AWFUL, like they were done by someone that didn't know what they were doing.  You also have a professional welder who inspected the stove in person and said the same thing.

Aren't these stoves inspected by someone other than the welder after they are assembled?  Those stoves should never have left the factory floor.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 29, 2009)

tradergordo said:
			
		

> ... like they were done by someone that didn't know what they were doing.



Kinda true. PE uses robotic welders.


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## tradergordo (Oct 29, 2009)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> tradergordo said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




WOW - that makes it even more surprising.  I assumed it was human welded only because of how bad the welds look.  I guess it was a case of poor maintenance or operation on the equipment?  I have no idea, but either way, doesn't matter how it was done, you'd still expect that every stove would be carefully inspected before leaving the factory.


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## Hogwildz (Oct 30, 2009)

I didn't get a chance to ask Cory, but I'm thinking the outer shell welds are robotic, and the inners are hand welded by a person.
Might have been a stoner on the production line between 2006 & 2007.


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## crazy_dan (Oct 30, 2009)

53flyer said:
			
		

> crazyary- That's exactly right in that you'd be part of yet another percentage of the people who found the problem but didn't report it because they fixed it themselves... When did you get your stove? Any issues so far with the box or the baffle? Dealers say they've never had an issue with the baffles either but right here we have some people who've had theirs warp.



so far no issues I have not had any cracks and the only problem I have had is a minor one of the piece of metal in the front of the firebox just inside the door with the 6 holes in it. which i fixed myself by cutting 3/16" off of each end after straitening it out.

I got my Summit in Jan 2008
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/14446/


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## meathead (Oct 30, 2009)

Sisu said:
			
		

> I think 53 Flyer was trying to quote Bigg Redd.
> 
> I just spoke with Lynne from the dealership via the phone.  She stated the welder does not think he can get at the internal cracks.  Lynne is going try to process the claim for replacement of the unit via distributor.
> 
> I tried calling Cory from PE yesterday, but he wasn't at work unfortunately.  I think this information coming from the welder and dealer will help the warranty claim.  I will keep you posted on what happens.



2 issues come to mind 

1 - to the PE stove buying public - if the robotic welder was set poorly for Sisu's stove, it was probably set poorly for an entire batch of stoves. Poor penetration on one weld for these things more often than not means poor penetration on the next, and all the ones after that until someone services the welder. 

2 - Sisu, you are a patient man. This is not going well. You spoke to a new dealer contact and had to give her the locations of the cracks so she could verbally tell the welder where they are? This thing does not have a snowball's chance in he77 of getting fixed right. Either 

a) the welder is competent with stove repairs and will be able to check all possible stress points himself and make all needed repairs

 or b) the welder is a laborer (not saying he's not a good one) who will weld where people tell him to weld. You are now playing the telephone game with your stove repair at the far end of the line. To be honest I would be glad the welder can't get at the cracks if I were you...because the chances of you telling a woman from the dealer where the cracks are over the phone (even though she should have pics on file and not have to ask) and her understanding your description of every locatiopn and conveying them to the welder in such a way that he knew exactly where every issue was and made a propper repair sounded pretty dismal to me. 

Like a couple others have said - you deserve a new stove...before it gets warm out again.


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## Sisu (Oct 30, 2009)

I think Hog is correct about the welds.  From what I remember, the outer welds are done robotically.  

Meathead - I think the welder they used is a good one and I did speak to him directly.  He was the first one to express concern about getting into the firebox to repair the welds.  He said that the original welds are made as the unit is being put together, which is a lot easier than welding after the fact.  

I told him that it is under warranty, so if he didn't feel that he could weld them properly, to tell the dealer.  He did assess the work, and told the dealer that he could not properly repair the internal welds.  After that, Lynn from the dealership asked me yesterday if I had pictures of the internal cracks to send to the distributor.  I looked at my sent emails, and confirmed that I had sent the distributor those pictures.  I confirmed the names of the pictures with Lynn, so that she could tell the distributor the exact pictures.  

Lynn has been great.  Night and day from the original dealer contact.  So I am just waiting to hear back as to the next step.


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## Sisu (Oct 30, 2009)

I just got a call from Lynn from the dealership.  She said they have the photos and she is completing an RMA (return to manufacturers's form).  The firebox will be going to the distributor on Monday for their welder to assess.  I guess if it is deemed that it cannot be repaired, then replacement is warranted. 

It seems to be going in circles a bit.  It is the distributor that is holding up things now.  Lynn is trying to do all she can, but now the distributor's welder has to make a second opinion.  I just hope that the distributor's welder does not have any bias towards the assessment.  

I will be away next week deer hunting, but I will be updated by my wife about the proceedings.  I will let you know what happens when I get back.


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## drdoct (Oct 30, 2009)

Nothing like spending more to save less.  If the stove is under warranty then I bet it's cheaper to just drop ship one out to replace than to jack with it for months trying to get people to weld and piece things together.  I guarantee the customer is happier to just have a new stove in 2 weeks instead of having to deal with all this just to get back a stove that has a pretty good chance of being repaired wrong.  Doesn't make sense to me.


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## Bigg_Redd (Oct 30, 2009)

meathead said:
			
		

> 53flyer said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



x2


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## Bigg_Redd (Oct 30, 2009)

Quick!  Everyone off the PE bandwagon!  I think we can still catch the BK bandwagon if we hurry!


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## crazy_dan (Oct 30, 2009)

Bigg_Redd said:
			
		

> Quick!  Everyone off the PE bandwagon!  I think we can still catch the BK bandwagon if we hurry!



Nah I don't like cats


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## 53flyer (Oct 30, 2009)

meathead said:
			
		

> Hey...I never said that...
> 
> I think you formatted your quote wrong



But you wanted to right?...j/k  Sorry about the format mix-up.  I went back & fixed it (post 179) today.



			
				Bigg_Redd said:
			
		

> Quick!  Everyone off the PE bandwagon!  I think we can still catch the BK bandwagon if we hurry!



*???...* 
Many of the people posting on this thread have neither a PE nor BK so how do people come off the bandwagon they were never on?  I'm not even on the "Quad bandwagon" (the freestanding stove I have).  However, I do find it quite interesting to read about the various real life issues people are experiencing with their stoves (any stoves).  Most people are presumably interested in simply watching to see how these issues are resolved.  Just as important to most (I assume) is discovering if some underlying reason for these problems was discovered that PE has (or will) fix iot prevent future occurrences.  This thread is particularly interesting to me because the PE is one of the brands I've been considering.  It became even more interesting for me as people who didn't even start this thread began to discover problems they may not have otherwise discovered if not for this thread (like Hog, Karl [post 90], and minesmoria [post 133]).  Btw, What's going on with your stoves Karl & minesmoria :question:


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## greythorn3 (Oct 30, 2009)

damn i thnk the bandwagon left me! my bandwagon left 20-30 years ago!


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## fredarm (Oct 30, 2009)

53flyer said:
			
		

> Many of the people posting on this thread have neither a PE nor BK so how do people come off the bandwagon they were never on?  I'm not even on the "Quad bandwagon" (the freestanding stove I have).  However, I do find it quite interesting to read about the various real life issues people are experiencing with their stoves (any stoves).  Most people are presumably interested in simply watching to see how these issues are resolved.  Just as important to most (I assume) is discovering if some underlying reason for these problems was discovered that PE has (or will) fix iot prevent future occurrences.  This thread is particularly interesting to me because the PE is one of the brands I've been considering.  It became even more interesting for me as people who didn't even start this thread began to discover problems they may not have otherwise discovered if not for this thread (like Hog, Karl [post 90], and minesmoria [post 133]).  Btw, What's going on with your stoves Karl & minesmoria :question:



I have a PE and I'm interested in seeing how this plays out.  I don't have any problems with my stove (that I'm aware of) but would like to know if PE stands behind their warranty.  This is a real-world test case, so please continue to keep us posted.


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## Sisu (Oct 30, 2009)

Just an update before I am away for the week.  I spoke to Cory from PE and he made some calls and called me back.  This what he had to say:

-the stove is in transit to the distributor;
-the distributor's welder is going to take a look at it, and this welder is well versed on PE products (He stated that the other welder might not be that familiar with PE products);
-on Monday Cory is going to conference with the distributor and the distributor's welder to see the course of action;
-if it can be fixed properly, it will be, and he would extend my 5 year comprehensive warranty; and
-if it cannot be fixed properly, I will get a new firebox.

Anyway, there is not much that I can do now, so I will wait and see what happens.


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## fredarm (Oct 30, 2009)

Sounds like a reasonable approach.  Have a good week!


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## 53flyer (Oct 30, 2009)

Well that sounds pretty good Sisu (progress at least).  The only thing that sounds a bit off is to say "the other welder might not be that familiar with PE products".  Should it really matter that much what the exact item is that a professional welder is looking at?  Isn't it just a matter of the welder looking at the metal object (whatever it is) and deciding if it can be welded successfully?  It seems a bit more like he means to say: "well, we were ok with a local welder fixing it but if he doesn't think he can then we want one of OUR welders to take a look to see if there's any way we can get by with a re-weld fix rather than actually having to replace it."  I completely understand a business trying to avoid needing to do a total replacement but by the end of this they're going to have spent 2x what it would've cost to just replace it from the begining...  A delayed process isn't very customer friendly at this time of (cold) year either.

Good Hunting!


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## meathead (Oct 30, 2009)

Sisu said:
			
		

> Just an update before I am away for the week.  I spoke to Cory from PE and he made some calls and called me back.  This what he had to say:
> 
> -the stove is in transit to the distributor;
> -the distributor's welder is going to take a look at it, and this welder is well versed on PE products (He stated that the other welder might not be that familiar with PE products);
> ...



Listen guy, you're going hunting while I'm going to work...I don't think I give a dang how your stove turns out any more. May all your wound chanels plug with fat and all your time be spent looking for nonexistent blood trails. 

JK man have a good hunt. Update us on the stove and any trophies when you get back. In the meantime, we will spout opinions on the matter and fill up a couple more pages of this thread with blather that makes little or no differance to anyone involved. 

Make versus country your country


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## Sisu (Oct 31, 2009)

meathead said:
			
		

> Sisu said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not a problem!!  I hopefully I will catch something other than swine flu!  The best scenario would be to have some meat in the freezer and the wood stove kicking out the BTUs.  

Feel free to fill up more pages on this thread with blather!  I would expect no less!  Just kidding.  Hopefully, others will have reports, in the meantime, on what are happening with their stoves and warranty claims.  With my luck, by the time I get back, everyone else will be sitting by their brand spanking new stoves; while mine will have to be sent to Australia by sailing ship to inspected by a crack team of expert welders for further assessment as to whether or not welding the internal cracks will or will not cause a rift in the universe.


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## Northeaster1 (Nov 1, 2009)

Waiting to see how this turns out.  Looks like PE is doing the right thing now, but too bad these folks have had to wait so long!

We have a 1 year old PE vista insert, that we love, and that so far, has no signs of cracks.

RE: overfiring - we have only a magnetic gauge above the door, but frequently see it go up in the 800+ degree range, after filling the firebox, and burning somewhere between high to med air for 10-20 minutes, before choking it down, unsuallyu in a couple of steps, to low air for the next several hours.

As stated in another thread, I even called PE to discuss these temps.  Although their guy would not tell me the limits of safe temps, he did say that I was fine doing what I was doing..  He defined overfiring as burning through a full load of fuel in something like 4 hours or less.  This would likely mean med - high air the whole time.  Of course, most of us try to cut the air back, to increase burn times, so I thiks I am fine.  Although my "rutland" type magentic gauge is meant for the stove pipe (so I ignore the yellow and red oevrfiring warnings, as thye apply to stove pipe), it is accurate, as I have checked it with a handheld.. although it only reads up to 650.  Up to then, the two are bang on.

Hopefully this was a specific period of poor welding / poor Quality control, that PE has since fixed.  In times like these, I feel that a manufacturer should stand up and say that they did have an issue... it is not fixed, and thye will correct any problems arising from it.  Take the high road, and you will have many PE fans, and customers!!


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## Hogwildz (Nov 1, 2009)

Northeaster1 said:
			
		

> Waiting to see how this turns out.  Looks like PE is doing the right thing now, but too bad these folks have had to wait so long!
> 
> We have a 1 year old PE vista insert, that we love, and that so far, has no signs of cracks.
> 
> ...



My insert was made in 2006, and I am pretty sure the issues are with stoves made in the 2006-2007 time period.
I am happy with PE & Cory stepping up to the plate. Did not even attempt to mention over fire. So They are not trying to weasel out with that route.
I am thinking maybe had a stoner doing the eternal hand welding .

My only beef at this point would be the QC guys that obviously didn't even look at it, well the first two anyways. As I posted earlier, the "check boxes" on the check list were merely a few scribbled up & down touching all the boxes. The last guy seemed to have done his job and checked each one, as if he actually looked at each thing and checked them off as he did.
I'm ok with the rewelds, but if any more go bad, I am going to want a new firebox.


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## TMonter (Nov 1, 2009)

This is why I'm a really big fan of the way Quad does their baffle, the ceramic board holds up to the heat and while the front edge of the board takes a beating you don't have warping problems which is nice. However my first 3100i did have some cracking problems at a weld.


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## crazy_dan (Nov 2, 2009)

SON OF A B!@CH my summit is cracking too!!
I got cracks top corners of the doors will try to get pics later today and will be calling my dealer as well.
Bought the stove 1/25/2008. will look on the sticker to see when it was made.

edited to add: 
Made in March of 2007


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## meathead (Nov 2, 2009)

this is just getting silly


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## Hogwildz (Nov 2, 2009)

Update:
Set up for tomorrow for the Ironworker to come over after work and take care of the Summit.
I'll keep yall posted.


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## pilot-werx (Nov 2, 2009)

You all now have me worried about my summit....  I have had it a year and bought it because it came across as a tough beast...


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## begreen (Nov 2, 2009)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> Update:
> Set up for tomorrow for the Ironworker to come over after work and take care of the Summit.
> I'll keep yall posted.



If you can manage it, it would be super helpful is good documentation and photos of the locations of the weld cracks and the repairs.


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## Hogwildz (Nov 2, 2009)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Hogwildz said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Welp, pretty much documented the cracks in photos earlier in this thread. I'll try and take some during & after repairs also.
The dealer is still going to have to get me a can of paint. Hell, I am even borrowing a welding truck from a friend to make sure this happens, my certified welder neighbor will do the repairs.
I believe in a proactive stance towards anything, so I am not just sitting here waiting, and prolly saving the dealer & PE some coin also. They better pay him at least what they will owe. I am sure I am saving them a few hundred bucks, and even supplying half the stuff. I think I am a pretty damned good customer to be so involved.


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## crazy_dan (Nov 2, 2009)

Called my dealer and she was very helpful. She said she had never heard of that before and mine was the first she had heard of.
She said she would call her contact at PE and get back with me. She called me back in like 5 min. said her contact knew all about it even told her where the cracks should be.
Told me they have a machinewelding shop as part of their business. I was told to bring it in and they will fix it. 
I am not real happy with the prospect of wrestling that beast out then back in to the house, but I did not have them install it or deliver it when I bought it.

Anyway I hit the wrong reply button so I will add pictures in a post under this one

Edited to add:
I was told it was due to the welding of the air wash and causing a pressure point and it will not crack further (I will keep an eye on this and make sure but I do not see light from the cracks when a fire is going). I was told I could use it this season and bring it in at the end of the heating season and they will send it off or I could bring it in anytime and they would weld it. She told me her contact at PE said it is safe and fine to run in its current condition. She did try to tell me that it only happens when they are put under HIGH heat, but that did not matter.


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## crazy_dan (Nov 2, 2009)

Pictures

sorry about the quality


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## meathead (Nov 2, 2009)

OK...I'm not trying to sound like an a$$ here, and maybe this is just me - BUT - 

You bought a stove with a 5 yr warranty, and it was defective. Why does it matter you didn't have them install it? The install isn't faulty, the stove is - and that's what you paid for. 

It's a lot of work to unhook a stove and haul it somewhere and then haul it back and hook it back up. If it were me, I'd want to spend my free time doing something else while they fixed the problem. And that's coming from someone whose daily driver is a mason dump truck. I have the technology to haul it around...but I wouldn't even know where to start looking for the patience. You didn't go cheap after all, you bought what should have been a good stove - they should take it away and bring back what you paid for. That's my .02

I applaud people like Hog who are proactive about problems like this. Personally, I'm proactive from the other end - if I make a mistake, I do everything I can to make it right without a customer having to ask for anything. If I mess up and they have to spend their time telling me about it, it's time to start giving them back some money. These stove companies are all too glad to take 4 figures for a box of metal - I don't see why anyone should have to be proactive about repairing a faulty stove.


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## 53flyer (Nov 2, 2009)

crazy_dan said:
			
		

> Called my dealer and she was very helpful. She said she had never heard of that before and mine was the first she had heard of.
> She said she would call her contact at PE and get back with me. She called me back in like 5 min. said her contact knew all about it even told her where the cracks should be.
> Told me they have a machinewelding shop as part of their business. I was told to bring it in and they will fix it.
> I am not real happy with the prospect of wrestling that beast out then back in to the house, but I did not have them install it or deliver it when I bought it.
> ...



This is crazy that we now have 5 different people with this type of issue...  Every dealer says the same thing: "they've never seen it before". However, as stated in a previous post that could easily be simply that "most" stove owners don't inspect their stoves in that much detail. Don't you have to stick your head into the firebox and look back towards the front to even see most of these cracks? Not many people are out there sticking their heads into a sooty firebox to look for something they don't expect to find (or need to look for) in the first place.

Did she talk to Cory? Considering they told your dealer rep that they were aware of the problem she should realize that it's not an isolated event and as a responsible dealer she should be contacting all their PE owners to have them check their stoves for similar problems. In all actuality this seems more and more like something that PE should address in some sort of a recall. Expensive for them?  Definitely,  but also the right thing to do if a trend is being established.  I can tell you one thing for sure: If a "known crack issue" (this thread is a good start for evidence) caused excessive stove temperatures and led to a house fire PE would be in for a huge lawsuit. Add a death and were talking *multiple *millions (not to mention all the bad press causing loss of customers. To me, this seems like PE needs to stop addressing this problem reactively and get *proactive*...

I also still don't like them saying you need to take the stove in. It's something that you (the customer) did nothing to cause and they should be responsible for making it right. It's not like were talking about a car that can be driven in for warranty work and guess what, if a car couldn't be driven safely due to a defect that made it unsafe to drive to manufacturer/dealer would be paying to tow it from your house.

That PE Super I was looking at is looking less appealing.  I wish PE would say it's something they identified and fixed.  Even if it actually is the case (that they've fixed an identified issue) it would be expensive to actually "admit it" and have to deal with the tidal wave of warranty issues that would follow for all those previous stoves.  I still think it would be a lot cheaper (*dollar & reputation wise*) than the fire scenario I described though.

Edited:  Just read meathead's post (must have posted while I was writing mine).  It's probably evident from my post that I completely agree and would tell the dealer & PE to come get it "at my convenience".  Also, it's getting a little cold out so they should provide you with a stove to use while yours is getting fixed!


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## begreen (Nov 2, 2009)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> BeGreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yep, we're lucky to have you on board here too Hog. Not every forum has a magnanimous caveman with a good head on his shoulders! 

I'd like to see the whole process documented so that it can be presented to PE. Hopefully, soon we can hear of a bulletin being sent out to dealers with instructions of exactly what to watch out for, the cause and the cure. Checked the T6 and so far, no issues but I will be watching this area closely.


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## 53flyer (Nov 2, 2009)

crazy_dan said:
			
		

> Pictures
> 
> sorry about the quality



Hey! I was actually able to see this picture (probably won't be able to next time though-crazy computer quirk I guess).  Just so I have my bearings could you put an "Edit" line on your post to indicate the spacial relationship of the photo? I "looks" like its taken from the inside pointing back towards the front left (side where the door latches). Assuming that were right would it then be just above the height the baffle sits at?  Thank you


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## Wacky1 (Nov 2, 2009)

At least PE is making an attempt at honoring their warranty issues... More than alot of companies out there.  That gives me peace of mind.  Everything these days is mass produced in factories and they are bound to have some issues, that is where the warranty comes in to play.  I feel that PE is conducting a good business ethic by taking care of their customers.  Keep in mind that the steel and materials they use are not produced by PE but a vendor and this may be very detrimental to their own business with PE and other manufactures, if the quality control at the vendor is slacking then there in lies the problem.. Either way I commend PE on standing by there product, which sounds like in these cases they are.


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## pilot-werx (Nov 2, 2009)

53flyer said:
			
		

> crazy_dan said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I can tell you that after spending over $2500 for this stove if cracks appear I will not accept it being simply welded.  I will be more than happy to bring it back to the dealer in exchange for another stove in a crate.  It is crazy that they are having independent welding shops fix this from a liability and SAFETY standpoint.  I can say that I have recommended this stove to everyone who has asked me about it but I can say that after reading about how PE has handled this I will not be so quick to tell everyone to run out and buy one....


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## meathead (Nov 2, 2009)

Something to consider...their welders had first crack at it and it didn't go so good. I'd rather have a local welder - someone who has built a business around good welding and fabricating - get in there and go to work


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## BrotherBart (Nov 2, 2009)

If they develop a busted weld like my old insert did you can't weld it because it is inside the shroud around the thing. The crack in my old, not a PE, stove was hidden by the baffle and inside the shroud and I have no idea how many years it was there before I discovered it.

One of the reasons I didn't buy an insert this time around.


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## 53flyer (Nov 2, 2009)

Wacky1 said:
			
		

> At least PE is making an attempt at honoring their warranty issues... More than alot of companies out there.  That gives me peace of mind.  Everything these days is mass produced in factories and they are bound to have some issues, that is where the warranty comes in to play.  I feel that PE is conducting a good business ethic by taking care of their customers.  Keep in mind that the steel and materials they use are not produced by PE but a vendor and this may be very detrimental to their own business with PE and other manufactures, if the quality control at the vendor is slacking then there in lies the problem.. Either way I commend PE on standing by there product, which sounds like in these cases they are.



I agree with your thoughts that so far it seems like they're addressing these issues.  We really still don't know how well or poorly the end result of these 4 (oops 5 as of today) incidents will be.  We also can't get away from the fact that if this small a sample size is having this many issues that it's a potentially a symptom of something bigger.  In other words, being "reactive" to customers warranty issues is one thing but at some point this begins to look like more than an isolated incident and PE should be getting *"proactive"*.  One or two random occurrences is one thing but in <1 month PE's received 5 occurrence (that we know of).  That's a big percentage of failures based on the relatively small sample size of their customers that are represented by this thread.  There's also a good chance that 3-4 of these 5 people would have never realized they had a problem if not for a chance encounter with this thread.  It stands to prudent reason that there are a great more of these problems out there and a fluke problem goes from being just that "a fluke" to something else at some point as does the manufacturers liability go from a fluke warranty problem to negligence if they know of a potentially dangerous situation and take no action other than a reactive one....      

I realize you have a PE as well and if I owned one right now I'd want to think they were doing the right thing as well but I'll "commend" them once it seems like they're doing less reacting and actually taking more initiative (perhaps they already are, we can hope so).


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## Hogwildz (Nov 2, 2009)

crazy_dan said:
			
		

> Called my dealer and she was very helpful. She said she had never heard of that before and mine was the first she had heard of.
> She said she would call her contact at PE and get back with me. She called me back in like 5 min. said her contact knew all about it even told her where the cracks should be.
> Told me they have a machinewelding shop as part of their business. I was told to bring it in and they will fix it.
> I am not real happy with the prospect of wrestling that beast out then back in to the house, but I did not have them install it or deliver it when I bought it.
> ...



Dan, if you purchased it within the past 5 years, THEY ARE TO COME UNINSTALL AND HAUL IT OUT TO GET WELDED & REINSTALL , which Sisu & I have already been told, DEALER IS TO COME GET IT AND PUT IT BACK  UNDER WARRANTY!. Tell the dealer to get it together, or you can call Cory at PE also, he has been helpful.
I opted to have a mobile unit come and do the repairs while my insert stays in place. Dealer was actually glad to go that route to save on labor for removal, transport & reinstall, which he would have to eat up front & get reimbursed by PE. AN option you may want to consider and relay to your dealer.


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## Hogwildz (Nov 3, 2009)

Everyone's concern is appreciated. One thing not needed, is people trying to fuel the fire.
Especially if you DONT own a PE. Egging the others on does no good. 
As far as I know the issue has just come into light in the last month or so. No company goes on a nationwide recall with only 1 month of issues, without confirming its widespread, and also determining the cause & fix for the issue.
Many car , electronic, appliance manufacturers don't even recall a know defective product. Most recalls are do to either the government mandating it, or the government putting enough other pressure on a company to motivate the company that it is in that company's best interest. Everyone calm down, take some breaths, and if you own a PE with these issues let it be know in this thread, contact your dealer and make the necessary claim & arrangements. So far Sisu and myself have done just that, and BOTH of us were informed the dealer was to pick it up and take for repairs, unless like in my case, I opted for in place repairs.
Honestly, not trying to stir anything, but non owners and other not having the problem, feel free to watch & give input, but lets try and stay positive, and not fuel unnecessary fires. Spouting off about them doing this, and them doing that, at my leisure etc, is not needed, especially when the dealer is supposed to pick it up in the first place. After the 5 years, not sure, PE seems very reasonable, and may or may not even honor older models. Still seems to me it was stoves made in a certain time frame. At this point, I want my insert fixed, maybe get a new baffle for the hassle, and a can of paint to paint the face when repairs complete. If further cracks develop, then I will then pursue further, prolly for a new firebox. We need calm ppl, and strength in numbers at this point. A henfest of whining & moaning is not going to help. Nor is other folks fanning the flames.


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## Hogwildz (Nov 3, 2009)

pilot-werx said:
			
		

> 53flyer said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well there are always those that have to have something new regardless of the fix or repair ( not knocking you, just acknowledging some folks will not accept anything but new). The stoves are welded together at the start, not magically assembled. It is no less safe or liable for a certified welder to make the necessary repairs. Most car companies don't even replace a car for defects, unless they cannot be corrected, that is where the lemon law comes to play. Keep an eye on your stove is all I can suggest at this time. How PE has handled it so far is ok in my book. Not once did I have over fire thrown in my face. How many other manufacturers will use that excuse right from the git go? Of course at this point, its not an isolated incidence, but PE has responded well long before the additional problem stoves surfaced. Give the company a chance to make right, before condemning them.


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## Zzyk (Nov 3, 2009)

As a PE Summit owner I'd like to say thanks for keeping this thread alive and kicking.  I was about 3 days away from buying two more PE stoves and have now put that on hold (tempoorarily I hope).  

I checked my Summit and did not see any problems.  It was still warm so it wasn't that thorough of a check.. I'll inspect it better when its cold.

Side note- mine was manufactured in November 2008.  Would be interested to know if there was a specific timeframe for the problems- 
That and good warranty service would make me more comfortable about buying more PE products.


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## Dix (Nov 3, 2009)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> pilot-werx said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hogz brings up a good point. Yelling and carrying on at the person at the other end of the phone isn't going to accomplish anything, but tick them off and make them have little desire to be of any help to you.


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## 53flyer (Nov 3, 2009)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> Everyone's concern is appreciated. One thing not needed, is people trying to fuel the fire.
> Especially if you DONT own a PE. Egging the others on does no good.
> As far as I know the issue has just come into light in the last month or so. No company goes on a nationwide recall with only 1 month of issues, without confirming its widespread, and also determining the cause & fix for the issue.
> Many car , electronic, appliance manufacturers don't even recall a know defective product. Most recalls are do to either the government mandating it, or the government putting enough other pressure on a company to motivate the company that it is in that company's best interest. Everyone calm down, take some breaths, and if you own a PE with these issues let it be know in this thread, contact your dealer and make the necessary claim & arrangements. So far Sisu and myself have done just that, and BOTH of us were informed the dealer was to pick it up and take for repairs, unless like in my case, I opted for in place repairs.
> ...



Hog-  I'm honestly not attempting to stir things up either.  Rather, I'm simply trying to offer up factual sidebars as appropriate.  Even though I don't currently own a PE I do feel a direct concern because I was a day away from buying a PE Super until I discovered this thread and I want to know if I dodged a bullet or if this "potential" problem has been corrected.  I'm still looking for an insert and have expanded my search to 3 serious contenders but I've been doing a little feet dragging in hopes that the issues of you and Sisu would be resolved.  Since then, the list has grown to 5 and I'm even more concerned as to how this is playing out.  I had been considering a used stove as well so knowing if there's a timeframe to be concerned with would be very helpful.  I told a good friend with a PE to check his stove as well.  I wish this whole thing had started 3 months ago so I could make an informed decision based on the results of all 5 (or more) of your warranty claims.  

As far as a nationwide recall it's true that most (not all) don't go nationwide as soon as they should but many of those foot draggers also end up paying the price for that decision later when it's identified that the manufacturer knew of a defect but didn't take appropriate "proactive" steps.  I didn't say PE needed to do a nationwide recall yet but I stand by the fact that at this point they definitely should be looking into the situation from more than a "wait for the next call" approach.  They very well may be doing such an investigation already and if so that would be a good sign.  

As far as the "1 month of issues" you referred to: this means nothing unless put into context.  The context we have is at least 5 problems "among a very small statistical sample size" and 60-80% of them would most likely never have been found (or reported) but for this thread.  That means if Sisu hadn't started this thread PE would only have ONE reported issue in the last month from this small sample of owners.  The complexity of this issue is that it's a) based on a small sample size and b) a problem that 90% of the public would most likely "never look for".  Those factors must sway the way this type of issue is treated.  The 5yr reference becomes irrelevant if a safety issue is identified and they'd be liable for fixing those stoves as well.  I'd have to look again but I thought the spread was about 2yrs so far for manufacture dates.  Yes, I agree that it's not wise to "fuel a fire" but it's equally unwise to let it spread to the rest of the block/city.  These things are generally resolved in a better way when more people pay attention.  Before deeming something as simply "egging others on" those thoughts/ideas need to be examined to determine if they actually have some merit.

I'm sorry if I seem overly concerned.  Perhaps it's my safety background in military aviation that heightens my awareness to these issues.  I've helped write reports on accidents and completed the Naval Postgraduate Schools safety course so while I'm certainly not claiming to be an "expert", I "am" fairly knowledgeable irt safety concerns and the appropriate responses.  Regardless of the actual item involved (plane, stove, car, crane, etc.) appropriate standards of response are called for.  Sometimes it's hard to turn off many yrs of training but then again, sometimes it shouldn't be turned off either.

Again, I'm not interested in fueling fires and I remain hopefully optimistic for a great result all around.


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## 53flyer (Nov 3, 2009)

Doing The Dixie Eyed Hustle said:
			
		

> Hogz brings up a good point. Yelling and carrying on at the person at the other end of the phone isn't going to accomplish anything, but tick them off and make them have little desire to be of any help to you.



I agree 100%.  You should never bring up liability issues or other seemingly confrontational topics while still in the process of resolution.  Those things should only be brought up "after" all available channels of recourse have been exhausted and an appropriate response has still not occurred.


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## Hogwildz (Nov 3, 2009)

No offense taken Flyer. I was not pointing a finger, just was a general statement. Positive or productive input hurts no one, ans is always appreciated.
I just emailed Cory at PE again, with another copy of my photos & the QC card, my concerns, etc. I will see what his response it.


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## BrotherBart (Nov 3, 2009)

Take a look back through the Forum 53flyer. The stoves that were cracking last season were Quads. And the fix isn't pretty.


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## begreen (Nov 3, 2009)

Good reminders for all. So far this is only showing up with Summit stoves. It is not showing up on the rest of the PE line of stoves.


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## Hogwildz (Nov 3, 2009)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Good reminders for all. So far this is only showing up with Summit stoves. It is not showing up on the rest of the PE line of stoves.



BG, Sisu's initial post to start this thread states his is a Pacific, so it does extend to at least one other model.


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## Dix (Nov 3, 2009)

BG, Sisu has a Pacific.

What has Italy done to you?????????  %-P


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## begreen (Nov 3, 2009)

D'oh! :red:  Crap, sorry. Well, apparently I drink wine more frequently since going abroad.


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## minesmoria (Nov 3, 2009)

I have the summit classic model and bought it back in late august 2006 and have the same crack as the original poster doe's dont know if i am going to call pe  as i am moving  in the next two months or so. Also this is the main heat source as the gas meter is off!


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## begreen (Nov 3, 2009)

Call em. The scope of the problem needs to be defined.


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## Hogwildz (Nov 3, 2009)

Agreed, call PE, claim the problem, if anything to show this is not an isolated incident.


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## Gil655 (Nov 3, 2009)

I am a bit disapointed after reading this thread, i was leaning toward a PE insert for a remodel im doing. But now im not so sure. But i still have a question that needs answered, maybe someone can shed some light.

I have a question for you Pacific and Summit owners. With your experience of how these 2 units heat. Which model in your opinion would be the best fit for a 2200 sf tri-level home, with the fireplace  located in the lower family room area. looking to heat the whole house,, with gas furnace for backup. Double pain windows, well insulated attic.. I will be burning Aged spruce and Pine. I would be gone during the day so need atleast 8hr burn time.  will the Pacific handle the job with out pushin it to hard or will the Summit be a better fit with out toasting me. I read on one forum that you should subtract 30% from the sq ft rating or the stove to estimate your needs. 

What kind of burn times are u gettin with the Summit and Pacific?

Thanks for any input  and i hope evrything works out for u guys.


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## Hogwildz (Nov 3, 2009)

HighBurn said:
			
		

> I am a bit disapointed after reading this thread, i was leaning toward a PE insert for a remodel im doing. But now im not so sure. But i still have a question that needs answered, maybe someone can shed some light.
> 
> I have a question for you Pacific and Summit owners. With your experience of how these 2 units heat. Which model in your opinion would be the best fit for a 2200 sf tri-level home, with the fireplace  located in the lower family room area. looking to heat the whole house,, with gas furnace for backup. Double pain windows, well insulated attic.. I will be burning Aged spruce and Pine. I would be gone during the day so need atleast 8hr burn time.  will the Pacific handle the job with out pushin it to hard or will the Summit be a better fit with out toasting me. I read on one forum that you should subtract 30% from the sq ft rating or the stove to estimate your needs.
> 
> ...



Definitely the Summit. Even so, depending on the layout of the house, a tr-level may be tough to heat all areas.
Regardless of what you may read, a Larger stove can be used with smaller loads, hence less heat output.
As long as its burned reasonably hot enough, creosote is not an issue, and it will burn just as clean with 3 splits, as it will a full load.
The Summit give me a solid 8 hours of useable heat, the stove will continue to out out less heat over a couple more hours, but on a 20 degree or less night, 8 hours is easily obtainable. On warmer nights, longer times are achievable.
Much does depend on how well your home is insulated and retains the heat.


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## 53flyer (Nov 3, 2009)

HighBurn said:
			
		

> I am a bit disapointed after reading this thread, i was leaning toward a PE insert for a remodel im doing. But now im not so sure. But i still have a question that needs answered, maybe someone can shed some light.
> 
> I have a question for you Pacific and Summit owners.



FYI, the Pacific is no more.  PE's middle insert is now the "Super" but the other two remain the same (Smalll=Vista & large=Summit).  So far 4 of the 5 were Summit stoves.  The other one (the one this thread began with) was a Pacific.


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## Bigg_Redd (Nov 3, 2009)

HighBurn said:
			
		

> *I am a bit disapointed after reading this thread, i was leaning toward a PE insert for a remodel im doing. But now im not so sure. But i still have a question that needs answered, maybe someone can shed some light.*
> 
> I have a question for you Pacific and Summit owners. With your experience of how these 2 units heat. Which model in your opinion would be the best fit for a 2200 sf tri-level home, with the fireplace  located in the lower family room area. looking to heat the whole house,, with gas furnace for backup. Double pain windows, well insulated attic.. I will be burning Aged spruce and Pine. I would be gone during the day so need atleast 8hr burn time.  will the Pacific handle the job with out pushin it to hard or will the Summit be a better fit with out toasting me. I read on one forum that you should subtract 30% from the sq ft rating or the stove to estimate your needs.
> 
> ...



Agreed.  I'm always a little off-put whenever a company stands behind their products.


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## Dirtgrain (Nov 3, 2009)

If I were to buy a PE Summit, what should I look for in inspecting the welds?  All I know is that good welds are supposed to look like stacked nickels leaning in the same direction.


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## crazy_dan (Nov 3, 2009)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> crazy_dan said:
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It really is not that big of a deal to me to be honest. If I take the stove out and put it back in. I have no stairs and can back the trailer right up close to the door and use ramps to bridge the gap and not have a steep incline  to deal with. You can bet this will be the cleanest "used" stove they have ever seen as I will wire brush the inside vacuum and wash with soapy water and a toothbrush if needed to inspect every weld and square inch I can see. I will mark any areas of concern. both  in writing and pictures if i can get a picture plus will mark it with welders chalk (soapstone).


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## Csmith (Nov 3, 2009)

Just to pile on here, checked my summit insert (circa 2006) and it has exactly the same problem areas


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## 53flyer (Nov 3, 2009)

Smitty said:
			
		

> Just to pile on here, checked my summit insert (circa 2006) and it has exactly the same problem areas



Well, that's 6 reports now (5 Summit, 1 Pacific).  So far I believe it appears to be from about 2006-2008 correct Hog/Sisu?  Smitty, can you post pics for others to see and can you confirm if the stove was built "or bought" in 2006.  Do you know the build date?  



			
				Bigg_Redd said:
			
		

> HighBurn said:
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> ...



EDIT: I have no idea why the rest of this appears in "all bold".  It doesn't look that way when written...  I noticed that the person I quoted had some bold type in their post so maybe the encoding is carrying over?  I was going to try deleting and reposting without hitting the quote button but I guess you can't delete your own posts. END OF EDIT.

So far we only know the results of 2 out of 5 (6 now) claims but they do seem to be so far which is good to see.  If we assume all these reports are actually faulty welds, PE definitely needs to "at the very least" send out a notice to all dealers to be alert for these issues and it could easily be argued that all Summit and Pacific owners should be advised to inspect those locations for problems (with instructions as to how, where and what to look for).  Again, proactive vs. reactive, this is getting to be too many to be considered a fluke occurrence.  PE very well could be doing so at this very moment and that would be a truly good sign of a company standing behind their products AND looking out for their customers.  So far so good as we just don't know what's going on behind the scenes but one can hope that appropriate actions are in the works.

IRT the interpretation of HighBurns post- Given the amazing number of reports seen on this thread over such a short period and among such a small sample size it seems perfectly appropriate for someone like HighBurn to have new reservations irt a new purchase don't you think?  He may be thinking "would I rather buy something with what sounds like a great warranty but one that I'll also probably need to rely on (along with going through the whole time & inconvenience issue) OR something with an ok warranty that has a history of not being needed?  I don't see why someone's concerns need to be belittled.


crazy_dan- I think it's great if you "want to" take the time & effort to take it in/out yourself and deliver/pick it up.  Some people would prefer to do it themselves simply to ensure it was done "with care" and nothing got messed up during the process.  You'll surely be on the dealer's good side by helping them out so much.  It's definitely your prerogative and unless the dealer tries to "expect" the next customer to do the same it won't have any negative effects.


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## madison (Nov 3, 2009)

Moderators/Admins:  Is it or would it be appropriate to change this thread to a "Poll" so that the number and type of stoves with and without issues could be better understood?  Or would a new thread be necessary?


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## webbie (Nov 3, 2009)

A new thread would be better but I don't think such a poll really says much. Those without issues are less likely to make it to the forum....as you can imagine, those who do have issues might be googling "bad weld Pacific Energy" or something like that and end up here.

That said, it should be noted that I sold hundreds, if not thousands, of Avalon wood stoves and don't remember repairing one weld......certainly never heard anything within a year or two.....so it could be assumed that anything which is reported a few times has some validity to it.


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## Wacky1 (Nov 3, 2009)

53flyer said:
			
		

> Wacky1 said:
> 
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I think that they are seriously looking at this problem and it does take time to decide which is the best course of action in this situation.  I am sure they are speaking to their engineers and fabricators to see what just went wrong.. Could be as simple as a bad lot of welding wire or rods.  Lack of penetration or the opposite for that matter.  The metal could be weaker than it supposed to be.  But whatever the case, I dont believe PE is going to tell everyone to go "pound sand" ..so to speak.  PE does not have the reputation they do, for not doing good business..


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## Csmith (Nov 3, 2009)

Need to take a photography class, but these give the general idea

these two are of the outside , to the left and right of the door near the top


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## Csmith (Nov 3, 2009)

> first one is the the door jam  on the right side ( the crack is in near the corner), second one is inside the fire box, basically stick your head in , turn your head to the left and look in the corner



have to click on the door jam pic to see the close up to actually see the crack


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## pilot-werx (Nov 3, 2009)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

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Correct, I would not accept a repaired stove.  Comparing a car to a woodstove is really not relative.  You are comparing a welded steel box to a machine.  But I will tell you that if driving down the road and the frame of my new car started to develop cracks, I would not take anything less than a new car, or if they wanted to go through the trouble, a new frame.  Same with the stove, I would not accept anything less than a new fire box....


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## Hogwildz (Nov 4, 2009)

pilot-werx said:
			
		

> Hogwildz said:
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Out of curiosity, what brand & model stove do you own?
Ad you have a right to your own view & opinion, I respect that. Whether you would get a new firebox or not , who knows.
With the amount of these starting to surface, it may go that route, I don't know. I would surely take a new one if offered. But would also want to know the issue causing the problems has been remedied.


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## Hogwildz (Nov 4, 2009)

Update:
I obtained a welding truck, and my neighbor repaired the cracks.
He had an air drill with burring bit, which made it much easier to grind the cracks out. No way an angle grinder could have gotten to some spots.
The photos didn't turn out great. For some reason the shiny steel looks bronze or rusted. But it is shiny steel at the repairs.
First photos of the ground out cracks:


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## Hogwildz (Nov 4, 2009)

I did not have a chance to get photos of the weld before he ground the face welds down, but here they are prior to finish smoothing.
When he re-welded the inner door opening corners, he built it up with more weld than from factory, and also added more to the bottom corners.


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## madrone (Nov 4, 2009)

Dirtgrain said:
			
		

> If I were to buy a PE Summit, what should I look for in inspecting the welds?  All I know is that good welds are supposed to look like stacked nickels leaning in the same direction.



Not in this case. Oxy/fuel or tig welds do, but not these kind of mig welds. The tough thing about these failures is that poor penetration isn't always obvious. Cracks are obviously bad, welds that vary greatly in width over the length of the weld, undercutting (groove next to the weld) are the things I'd watch for in this case.


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## Hogwildz (Nov 4, 2009)

The smoothed finished buff looks better than in the photos, but here they are. 
He had a hard time on the hinge side, it was tough to get the disc in there past the hinge post.


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## madrone (Nov 4, 2009)

Flux-core? Lookin' good so far!


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## Hogwildz (Nov 4, 2009)

And finally a pic of the truck I got. The job took 2-1/2 to 3 hours.
And then I had to return the truck. 
Man I wish I had the paint.


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## greythorn3 (Nov 4, 2009)

Looks great feral swine! keep us updated on how it holds togeather!

Ray


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## Frostbit (Nov 4, 2009)

madrone said:
			
		

> Flux-core? Lookin' good so far!




Dunno. I think I see stick tracks. SMAW LH78, I would guess. I could be wrong.


I woulda done it with a MIG


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## crazy_dan (Nov 4, 2009)

Wacky1 said:
			
		

> I think that they are seriously looking at this problem and it does take time to decide which is the best course of action in this situation.  I am sure they are speaking to their engineers and fabricators to see what just went wrong.. Could be as simple as a bad lot of welding wire or rods.  Lack of penetration or the opposite for that matter.  The metal could be weaker than it supposed to be.  But whatever the case, I dont believe PE is going to tell everyone to go "pound sand" ..so to speak.  PE does not have the reputation they do, for not doing good business..



The reason I was given was when the air wash was welded in it caused a pressure point then due to the heating and cooling  expansion and contraction of the metal it causes a crack. I was told where and what the cracks looked like with out them even seeing the pictures. So I believe that they have figured out the problem and have corrected it I hope. I am sure it is cheaper to fix it at the factory and not after a customer buys it. 

From the sounds of it (my thoughts and feelings) it was either a bad batch of metal or The size of plate needed was underestimated IE. it stood up to testing but in real world use where I know hogs and mine are run 24/7, it did not hold up. It is one of them shat happens kinda things. 

I would *still* buy a PE product even after having this happen because they have stood behind their product. Every maker has had flaws at one point or another, It is how they handle those flaws is a real measure of the caliber of company you are doing business with.


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## pilot-werx (Nov 4, 2009)

I have a PE Summit.  Will be a year old next week.  If you are happy having it welded then so be it...


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## Hogwildz (Nov 4, 2009)

Frostbit said:
			
		

> madrone said:
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Yes, stick.
Keep in mind it was done where it sits. The upper innr opening cracks were tough enough position wise.
Not that it was not possible obviously, but working laying on his side looking up. The generator/welder would have to get up to speed once stick was applied. Which caused it to stick a couple times.
Prolly easier to do in a shop where the stove can be positioned more than the welder having to position himself to the stove.
I have got to find some stove bright metallic black paint locally. Lowes, HD & Ace do not carry them as far as I know.


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## Hogwildz (Nov 4, 2009)

pilot-werx said:
			
		

> I have a PE Summit.  Will be a year old next week.  If you are happy having it welded then so be it...


Check your Stove plate or QC card for date of manufacture. If between 2006-2007, keep an eye on the problem areas.
I am happy to be able to have heat soon, as it is getting cold here. If they want tp replace it next spring or summer, I would not turn a new one down.
I don't have time to wait till the middle of winter for a new one now. And highly doubt that option is on the table as of yet.


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## Hogwildz (Nov 4, 2009)

crazy_dan said:
			
		

> Wacky1 said:
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My welder said same thing, could have been a batch of inferior steel. But said he could not tell for sure.
I am thinking these stoves have been made for years before the problem, and obviously since. I am leaning towards bad batch during the 2006-2007 manufacture year.


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## madison (Nov 4, 2009)

Food for thought:

I have had my manifold booster replaced last yr under warranty ( https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/30126 )  and during communications with PE, it was stated to me that they had changed (increased) the length of the boost manifold and ran into issues with the expansion of the boost manifold which resulted in warping when it expanded with heating.  It was indicated that they had changed the dimension back after some issues.

I now wonder, that if the air wash piece expands, may it be creating the forces that are causing the cracks?  And were there length changes made to that part as well?  Both pieces are in the same orientation within the stove body....

I hope that all issues are resolved to the satisfaction of the customer.  Though with the dealer interposed between the manufacturer and customer, I have a feeling that the customer's experience will not be uniform unless the manufacturer "steps up to the plate", and rather than "patch/repair" the issues, find the root cause and replace the affected units.

I would bet that the end result would be a happier customer, and more stoves sold in the future.


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## Frostbit (Nov 4, 2009)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> Frostbit said:
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Do you have one of those flexible grinding/polishing discs and a 4 1/2" electric grinder? Its the way to go to remove any leftover weld and polish out grinding and burr marks before you paint. It will bring the steel to a bright smooth finish before you paint. I mention this because when you do paint, even the tiniest scratch or mark will be amplified to the eye when the paint dries.


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## 53flyer (Nov 4, 2009)

madison said:
			
		

> Food for thought:
> I have had my manifold booster replaced last yr under warranty ( https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/30126 )  and during communications with PE, it was stated to me that they had changed (increased) the length of the boost manifold and ran into issues with the expansion of the boost manifold which resulted in warping when it expanded with heating.  It was indicated that they had changed the dimension back after some issues.
> 
> I now wonder, that if the air wash piece expands, may it be creating the forces that are causing the cracks?  And were there length changes made to that part as well?  Both pieces are in the same orientation within the stove body....


That's interesting madison.



			
				Hogwildz said:
			
		

> crazy_dan said:
> 
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Hog- It looks like it goes back as far as 2005 (or 2004) based on Sisu's purchase although knowing the manufactured dates for all the stoves would help with your "leaning" direction.  A bad batch of steel seems unlikely to have lasted 2+ yrs though.  Here's what I believe to be pretty accurate but people should fill in as appropriate to give you a better idea as to the timeframe involved and how far back you might lean.    
*Inserts:*
Sisu-----[Pacific]---[Bought 2005]--[Manufactured ___?]
Hog-----[Summit]--[Bought 2006]--[Manufactured 07-06]
Karl-----[Summit]--[Bought 08-07]--[Manufactured ___?]
Smitty--[Summit]--[Bought &/or Manufactured circa 2006]

*Free Standing:*
crazy_dan [Summit]--[bought 01-08]--[Manufactured 3-2007]
minesmoria [Summit Classic]--[bought 08-2006]--[Manufactured ___?]

*Model Summary:* 1 Pacific, 5 Summits (3 inserts & 2 Free Standing).


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## Hogwildz (Nov 5, 2009)

Frost, the welder actually did do that buffing with a "tiger pad" I think he called it. It was like a mirror finish almost, and he explained the reason for exactly what you just described.
I bought a can of paint today, painted the entire front, both side grilles, the ash lip, the top plate that overhangs, the lower front pc the slide leer passes through, the lever and the latch tab, of yeah and the entire 3 pc shroud.
Was only going to do the front of the firebox, but the other pcs has minor scratches, but would stand out next to the new paint on the front of the firebox, so I painted it all up front.
I pulled the EBT box out and found the flapper was not seated in place correctly at all, so was not working at all. Might have been letting air in all the time also. Called Cory at PE and he instructed me the way it should be set and advised no adjustments or winding needed on the arm. I need a shower guys, long day, I'm dead tires and got the insert up and running about an hour ago.
I'll post photos & such when I return.
Oh yeah, mine was purchased 2006 and it was manufactured 2006.


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## Frostbit (Nov 5, 2009)

Yup, Tiger pad or horizontal flap wheel is what it is. Good. 

Glad to hear its back doing what its supposed to be doing. Look forward to the pics.


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## Hogwildz (Nov 5, 2009)

Ok, I should have let the pain air cure a couple days, if it becomes a problem, I'll sand & refinish. I just had to see how it is operating .
I wanted to see if it operated better now that the EBT flapper was in position and covering the hole when it should be. I did not run it hot enough to engage the EBT yet.
Seems more level and more easily controllable. I won't really know till its up to full temp.
Here are some photos:
Right face after paint, and close up.
EBT, notice the bees, flys & ladybugs. Note to self, during yearly cleaning, pull EBT, inspect & clean.
Sorry, forgot to take a phot of the flapper in correct position. it has a tab on each side that sits in a slot in those brackets each side.


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## Hogwildz (Nov 5, 2009)

Pics:
I flipped all the fire bricks over, and the bottoms & backs were like new. Should be good for a couple more years or so.
A full shot of the insert.
Left face & close up.
There is one small area where the tiger pad made a small groove, while the welder was trying to smooth & polish the weld behind and just above the hinge.
I did not want the hinge cut off and rewelded on just to polish it perfect. I told him, to do his best and good enough. I am ok with it, and once the door is on you can't see much at all. And from a couple feet away ya see nothing.
He literally had to hold his finger (in his glove) against the back of the tiger pad to get enough pressure & contact tot the repair near the hinge area. The tiger pad was thing and would just flex if he did not push his finger against the back of it while It was spinning.


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## Hogwildz (Nov 5, 2009)

Fire.
I am also trying my new prototype baffle gasket. It is door glass gasket which folds longways in 1/2. I centered it's sticky side to the the baffle opening edge, then folded it over to meet the area around the outside of the baffle surface where it rests on the back ledge. To this point the stock, and both my hand made gasket do not stop secondary from going on in the back along the baffle rear lower edge into the back of the firebox. I have decided to live with that bit of secondary back there, which may actually help burn the wood in back, as I never end up with charcoal back there. At least I know the gaskets survive the burning season very well and are truly reusable.

As for my review and view of PE at this point.
The dealer actually turned out ok. I did most of the legwork, but wanted things done as quick as possible, and I am sure he knew that. I took the initiative and he went with the flow.
Cory at PE was very helpful, and gave me no attitude, and generally seemed like he wanted to resolve the issue and honor the warranty. I would buy PE products again, and would have no problem recommending to anyone I know or was interested. I feel very comfortable knowing PE stands by their product & warranty. I will however keep my eye open for any further issues. I hope this is the end of any cracking & such.
My only real beef is the quality control dept. I know of a couple guys/gals that need their asses handed to them. They are the last in line to assure a quality, properly made & prepared product goes out to the consumer. And whoever was on duty the day mine was crated, was asleep at the wheel. Which the way the check off card was scribbled, indicates. The EBT should be another thing double checked before shipping. After 3 years, only after I decided o pull it out and check it, did I find it was not even completely put together and operating properly. I am not knocking the company, but the QC dept. Every phase of the build to the paint to the QC & crating is equally as important. In the end, I would still buy again. I would check everything including the EBT and every other operating component before installation though.
2 thumbs up here for PE.


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## 53flyer (Nov 5, 2009)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> Ok, I should have let the pain air cure a couple days, if it becomes a problem, I'll sand & refinish. I just had to see how it is operating .
> I wanted to see if it operated better now that the EBT flapper was in position and covering the hole when it should be. I did not run it hot enough to engage the EBT yet.
> Seems more level and more easily controllable. I won't really know till its up to full temp.
> Here are some photos:
> ...



Hey, I can actually "see" a picture in this post (usually I can't)  The pic I see looks like the left face close up but it's tagged as right face close up?  I updated the yr bought, if you know the month I'll add that too.


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## Hogwildz (Nov 5, 2009)

53flyer said:
			
		

> Hogwildz said:
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7/06 is the date on the QC card. I ain't pulling the insert to red the tag on the back.
11/15/06 Deposit put down, 12/2/06 paid fro and brought home.
As for the pictures. Its a habit of mine. My work is insurance adjuster dealing with tractor trailer wrecks. I label my photos per if your sitting in the vehicle, not looking at from front.
Hence right side is curbside, left side is driver's side. Sorry bout that.


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## jqgs214 (Nov 5, 2009)

Two notes: 

1. to me it looks like when the crack was ground down it did not go all the way through is that the case? 
2. I have pacific insert and while I do not have face cracks I do have 1 cracked internal weld that does not go to an outside an source.  I will monitor it and if it gets bigger or more show up it will be reported to my distributor.

unit purchased in 2007 not sure of manufacture date.


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## ermite (Nov 5, 2009)

Hi, i have restore about 30 PE stove and i can tell you that i have see thoses kinds of cracks(the ones each sides off the door) on many stoves.And the baffle support rails are almost always to change.The baffle itself is always wrap at a certain degree and have to be changed sometimes.The small Vista seem to be the one with less problems.The Summit  and Super 27 seems about the same.I have se those cracks on 15 years units and also on units with only 3 to 4 years.If PE said that they have see them on only 6 units ,i have see it myself on a lot more units! I just have check my own 2005 Summit and i have 2 cracks begening each sides of the door and i can confirm than the stove never overheat.It is a conception problem that they have for many years and never correct.The snew supports rails in stainless seem to be better.Thoses stoves are fun to heat,work very well but seem to wear out fast.


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## Spotted Owl (Nov 5, 2009)

Burning Sensation said:
			
		

> Is there an over firing temp listed in the manual?  If not then then I think you are ok saying that you never over fired it according to the instructions.



There is not. I just got off the phone with the factory. I asked about normal operation temp ranges and what the over fire line would be. I was told" We don't test the stoves so it would have to be a judgment call on part of the operator. It's just a common sense thing. If you see parts glowing or the baffle is warped/warping then the unit is being over fired." To me that is as vague as you can get. I called because I did see this info in the manual for the T6 we just ordered either, so I wanted to know definitively from the factory. So much for that. I don't recall ever not having either in writing or over the phone with a factory a normal operating range and over fire temp line not to cross, we have used a lot of burners over the years in different rentals and places we have owned. 


I guess as the factory says, you just need to use commonsense. I know that didn't help, but it's hard to help when the builders don't have any for you.



Owl


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## fredarm (Nov 5, 2009)

ermite said:
			
		

> The small Vista seem to be the one with less problems.



That's a relief!


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## Hogwildz (Nov 5, 2009)

wxman said:
			
		

> Two notes:
> 
> 1. to me it looks like when the crack was ground down it did not go all the way through is that the case?
> 2. I have pacific insert and while I do not have face cracks I do have 1 cracked internal weld that does not go to an outside an source.  I will monitor it and if it gets bigger or more show up it will be reported to my distributor.
> ...



WX, yes the crack was completely through the weld. It was just finer and harder to see once ground out.


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## SmokingAndPoking (Nov 5, 2009)

It honestly looks almost as good as I knew.  I hope the cracks stay gone for you, if nothing else, at least until the end of the heating season this year.


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## begreen (Nov 5, 2009)

Stove looks great Hog. Nice repair and fast. Thanks for the tip on the glass gasket for the baffle seal. I'll have to try that.


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## 53flyer (Nov 5, 2009)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> Fire.
> I am also trying my new prototype baffle gasket. It is door glass gasket which folds longways in 1/2. I centered it's sticky side to the the baffle opening edge, then folded it over to meet the area around the outside of the baffle surface where it rests on the back ledge. To this point the stock, and both my hand made gasket do not stop secondary from going on in the back along the baffle rear lower edge into the back of the firebox. I have decided to live with that bit of secondary back there, which may actually help burn the wood in back, as I never end up with charcoal back there. At least I know the gaskets survive the burning season very well and are truly reusable.



I was actually told by a dealer that you don't even need the gasket and that some people who accidentally sweep theirs out with the ashes don't ever put another one in. What are PE owners thoughts on that statement?


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## Hogwildz (Nov 6, 2009)

53flyer said:
			
		

> Hogwildz said:
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That could be true, but I would rather have that air go to the front of the baffle then just flow back there, looks like its going to do both now with the gasket. My home made gaskets last longer so its not an issue now for me.


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## pilot-werx (Nov 6, 2009)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> pilot-werx said:
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Looking through the paper work, the QC tag indicates it was built on 09/18/08.  Time will tell....  

Your repair looks like  there was nothing ever wrong.  Nice job!  What did you use for paint?


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## Hogwildz (Nov 6, 2009)

pilot-werx said:
			
		

> Hogwildz said:
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Thanks,
The insert actually came with a card from Stove Bright, the paint they use at PE factory. So that is what I bought.
It is Black Metallic.  The local hardware stores, HD & Lowes did not carry anything but Rustoleum.
I was out on a job Wednesday and stopped by a stove shop I was considering prior to making my initial insert purchase from another shop. Thy had the cans of Stove Bright paint in stock.
I was pleasantly surprises to find at the shop it cost $9.95. I wanted it that day too. As I ended up painting everything that night.
I looked online and it ran around $13.00 to $16.00. And I would have shipping to pay and the wait fro it to be shipped.
PE has agreed to also reimburse me for the can of paint also.
I just noticed my damn door glass gasket has about an inch area inside that the glass edge is not covered bu the gasket portion inside. Not PE's fault, as I replaced the glass  and gasket last year I think it was.
It is tight on the outside, so should really be a non issue. But now knowing it is there, I just can't stop thinking about it, and will replace it and correctly install a new one.
I notice I am becoming an anal perfectionist when it comes to my wood burning. Hope I don't get Howard Hughes syndrome 
Could be real bad trying to put more splits in with tissues covering my hands.

We are supposed to drop to 26 tonight. Summit is going, I am babying it for now, but house is 72. Good for me, the girls are wrapped up in blankets. Sheesh.
Looks like I am off to the hardware store tomorrow for a door glass gasket.


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## madison (Nov 6, 2009)

Careful if you start using kleenex when you grab that door handle  Or We'll have to start calling you HogHowardHughes

Great job all around, thanks for sharing


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## begreen (Nov 7, 2009)

> We are supposed to drop to 26 tonight. Summit is going, I am babying it for now, but house is 72. Good for me, the girls are wrapped up in blankets. Sheesh.



Wimps . So when do the 30NC afterburners kick in Hog?


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## Hogwildz (Nov 7, 2009)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> > We are supposed to drop to 26 tonight. Summit is going, I am babying it for now, but house is 72. Good for me, the girls are wrapped up in blankets. Sheesh.
> 
> 
> 
> Wimps . So when do the 30NC afterburners kick in Hog?


Well, I am working on the last wall of stone in the bedroom, then I can get the flooring down, and I am contemplating changing the flooring I planned to install in the office.
It a southern facing room, and was looking at some sweet looking 16" x 16" black granite tiles at HD last weekend. Was going to use that for a hearth, then install the laminate flooring around it. Was also thinking of raising just the area under the stove very high, so high I could stand up straight & load it, and save my back some pain. Then cultured stone around the sides of the platform. I am pretty set on the raised platform now, but have been thinking of installing the black granite on entire office floor, which is next to the entrance, so I would have to do the entrance in it also. I think I remember it being $3 something a pc, so it would prolly be somewhere around a grand to do in those areas area. I already have the laminate for it. But the black granite would give some great passive solar heat in the winter. I just can't make up my mind. Any suggestions?


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## begreen (Nov 7, 2009)

If the granite is textured, it should work ok, but I wouldn't put it on the floor if it was glossy. With wet shoes or boots, it could become a skating rink. Not fun if you're toting in an armload of wood. If it does have good texture for flooring, then I would consider adding a contrasting border made of smaller tiles in a simple geometric pattern. The border could wrap around the hearth and look pretty trick.


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## Hogwildz (Nov 7, 2009)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> If the granite is textured, it should work ok, but I wouldn't put it on the floor if it was glossy. With wet shoes or boots, it could become a skating rink. Not fun if you're toting in an armload of wood. If it does have good texture for flooring, then I would consider adding a contrasting border made of smaller tiles in a simple geometric pattern. The border could wrap around the hearth and look pretty trick.



Its pretty smooth. If I was going to use it, I would put a entrance mat or rug at the doors, and maybe a small area rug in the center. Kinda defeats the purpose I guess.
I think I will stick with the laminate which is a Dupont Real Touch, and is also a stone pattern, more grays though. I'll do the hearth in the Granite to meet the laminate flooring level, but also raise the hearth just under the stove, do the sides walls of the raised portion in cultured stone, and the top again in granite. Less costly, and might actually look pretty good. I def want it raised high enough that I can load while standing up. Back has been not cooperating very much lately, and putting off getting cut open for as long as I possibly can. Processing the wood alone makes me pay for days afterward, but I truly love doing it, so its fair trade off while I still can do it.


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## Wacky1 (Nov 8, 2009)

Hog, not to change subjects, what kind of burn times should I be getting loaded with red oak n/s split mixed with non-split?


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## madison (Nov 8, 2009)

Asked and answered many times, search and ye shall find.  

But burn time and effective heating time are subjective and house/location specific.

But you should easily be able to load the Summit at bedtime, and be able reload it without kindling in the morning, I have been able to relight without much effort over 12 hrs if the box was stuffed and closed down for the day.


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## Hogwildz (Nov 9, 2009)

Wacky1 said:
			
		

> Hog, not to change subjects, what kind of burn times should I be getting loaded with red oak n/s split mixed with non-split?



Wacky, Madison pretty much summed it up.
Depends on many things, insulation in the house, outdoor temps, wind, draft etc.
When it is warm like today, I am still looking at some solid red coals from about 13 hours ago.
Now in the colder weather, it burns down quicker it seems to me. Maybe a stronger draft also.
You should have no prob loading before bed, and having plenty of coals to restart at reload in the morning.
Larger splits & rounds will yield longer burn times.
One problem you may find with all oak, is lots of coals.


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## Wacky1 (Nov 9, 2009)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> Wacky1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



OK, that is what I am getting timewise, and yes, lots of hot coals.  Just checking to see if it gets really cold if I would be able to open it up a little and still get 10+ hrs.  I have had it shut down since Friday morning and the concrete below the hearth is still warm!!  Thanks! ;-)


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## pilot-werx (Nov 9, 2009)

Agree with the others....   I loaded the firebox last night at 8:30....  This morning I reloaded it at 7:30 and off it went in less than minute...


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## Sisu (Nov 9, 2009)

Hi Everyone,

I am back from the hunt, but our party didn't get anything.  I did see the back of one deer (I couldn't identify since I only had a buck tag), spooked a bull moose and saw a cow and calf.  Overall, it was a great time and great to be in the bush for the week.

I just spoke with Lynn from the dealership.  The firebox has been welded at the distributor and after they conducted a preliminary visual inspection.   From the inspection, the distributor inspector wanted a bit more grinding done and then there should be a final inspection.  Hopefully, by tomorrow, it will be approved to be sent back to the dealership by Wednesday.  Lynn said that she will try to get it back to me for the weekend.    She said she will call tomorrow with an update.

I see that there have been a few more stoves with similar issues, since I last posted.  I purchased my Pacific insert in 2005, but I am not sure of the date of manufacture.  Is there any way to get the date via the serial number etc.?

Hog, your repair is looking good!  Your EBT was not correctly installed and that could be a factor in your firebox issues.  How is the stove running now that you fixed the EBT?  Any noticeable difference?

Cory mentioned that he would extend my 5 year comprehensive warranty.  I am going to call him later today, to see if they can put it in writing.


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## Hogwildz (Nov 11, 2009)

Sisu said:
			
		

> Hi Everyone,
> 
> I am back from the hunt, but our party didn't get anything.  I did see the back of one deer (I couldn't identify since I only had a buck tag), spooked a bull moose and saw a cow and calf.  Overall, it was a great time and great to be in the bush for the week.
> 
> ...



I only ran it a couple nights, and didn't push it hard or load it to the gills.
Seems more controllable so far.
I did notice when I replaced the glass last year, one part of the gasket did not cover the glass on the inside. Outside is covered, but an inch or so is not covered on the inside. So I must fix that. Its driving me nuts. I doubt it will make a difference. I am still getting a small leak at the door gasket on the lower latch side. I just don't like this 7/8 flat gasket. Going to try and adjust the door latch a lil more. If it wont seal, I am going back to a 1" round gasket.


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## Sisu (Nov 12, 2009)

Hey Everyone,

I just heard back from the dealership (Herb).  The stove repairs have been made and the dealership will be picking it up tomorrow.  Herb said that they can deliver it the same day, but stated that they can only bring it into the basement, but not install it (as what originally was the plan).  I asked why, and Herb stated that he was told by the dealership owner that it was a cash sale and therefore will not cover the cost of reinstallation.  I asked about why they were able to remove it, and he stated that they did it as a courtesy.  That is when I stated to Herb that this is under warranty, so I understood that the removal and reinstallation was covered by PE and not them.

I said that I talk to Cory from PE to get his perspective.  He stated that it might be a liability issue and since I originally installed the stove, the dealership thinks that they will assume liability if they install it.  Any professional reinstallation would require an inspection of the liner, cap etc. and would be a cost that I would incur.  All I was looking for was the dealership to reinstall the stove and no liability assumed by them.   He said that they can probably set the firebox in the fireplace, but everything else is up to me.  I stated that there were a lot of things dismantled and unscrewed to get the stove out and it wasn't that easy. 

It isn't impossible for me to install the unit, however it is a small space and it took Herb and I about an 1.5 to disconnect the liner and remove the unit.  Reinstallation will have the same PITA factor.  So I asked Cory if the warranty doesn't cover reinstallations (including inspection)?  

That is when he changed his tone and said that he "lost me" at this point.  He stated that they have honoured the warranty up to this point "no questions asked", implying that by doing so, they have done me a favour by asking no questions.  I countered stating that the 5 year comprehensive states "replacement" if part is deemed defective, so by accepting a repaired firebox, I have done them the favour.  He stated that the 5 year comprehensive is "repair or replacement" at PE's discretion.   

Realizing that I was getting a bit put off and that things were going no where fast, I brought the conversation back to the reinstall, stating that the reinstall involves a bit more than putting back a few screws; and that from what I understood, it was a monetary issue and misunderstanding of the warranty vs a liability issue.  Cory stated that he will talk to the distributor to see whats up.

After the phone call, I was a bit dismayed how things played out.   So I sent the following email to Cory to try to communicate things better:


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## Sisu (Nov 12, 2009)

"Hi Cory,

During our telephone conversation, it seems I hit a nerve with you and that was not my intention.  I am not trying to be unreasonable or to be a pain in your side.  As a customer, I am writing this email to hopefully better explain what I was unable to do verbally.

I was told by the dealership (Herb), during the removal on October 16, 2009, that the insert would be re-installed by them.  Therefore, I had the expectation that the unit was to be reinstalled. 

In this morning's conversation with the dealership (Herb), he was told by the Owner that they will only deliver it to the basement, since it was a cash deal and that they initially removed it out of courtesy.  From what he told me, I understood that the dealership will not reinstall it because they believe that they are responsible for the costs.  It was my understanding that the 5 year comprehensive warranty from PE was covering this.  There was no mention of liability concerns in the conversation.  

Also, during the removal of the insert, I spent 1.5 hours with Herb (since he was alone), assisting in the disconnecting of the unit, providing a number of tools, removing panels and screws, lifting it on to my hand truck lifting it up stairs, and lifting it into his truck.  So I am not adverse to doing some of the work.  

However, it was not the easiest thing to remove, due to the tight spaces.  Reinstallation will face similar hurdles.  I don't expect the dealer to take liability for installation.  But, as the customer, I do expect assistance and things to be reasonably convenient.

For you to imply that you have done me a favour by honouring the warranty so far with "no questions asked" I thought was a bit unfair.  I have been very patient and empathetic throughout this process.  Nor am I trying to get away with anything.  I would have no problem answering questions by PE, since I am a diligent woodburner.  Also, the problems with my firebox do not seem isolated (referring to other responses on the Hearth.com forum) and could be a result of a potential design/material issue.  If these are potential issues, PE should ask questions and investigate, as part of the improvement of their products.

The only feedback I have received so far during this warranty claim, in regard to the condition of my insert, was from Herb, during the removal of the insert.  He stated that he did not see evidence of over-firing.  Have you received any feedback from the Distributor?

In regard to interpretation of the 5 year warranty, I am not asking for a new stove.  Therefore, I could be doing PE a bit of a favour.   The PE website states:

_"5 Year Comprehensive 

Pacific Energy will replace any part found to be defective (parts and labor) for five years from the date of purchase. This coverage includes electrical components (blowers, speed controls and thermal switches)."_



I am aware that there also a "conditions" statement after that states, "_Any part that shows in our judgment evidence of defect shall be repaired, replaced or refunded at Pacific Energy’s option. The defective part may be required to be returned to Pacific Energy or an accredited agent, transportation prepaid." _ You mentioned this part, in our telephone conversation.  Does this include the 5 year warranty?  If so, the two statements contradict each other and are very misleading.  The warranty should be rewritten to make things clear. 

At the end of the day, I do appreciate all your help and assistance you have given me.  You have been my advocate, fair to deal with, and have helped move this warranty process that might have stagnated otherwise.  I just hope that you understand some of my frustration that I have had during this process.  

There are three parties I have been dealing with (the dealer, the distributor, and manufacturer).  Each has their varying interests, and knowledge base in regard to warranty issues.  The dealership contact (####) that I dealt with initially did not even know about the warranty on the baffle or about the 5 year comprehensive warranty.  

Being the fourth party in this process, I have to stand up for my interests as well.  I don't want to ask for nor expect the moon.  I just want things made right, so that I may continue raving good things about my PE stove.

Please respond and let me know what the outcome is.  Your response, thoughts, and a clarification of the 5 year comprehensive warranty would be greatly appreciated."

So what does everyone think?  Am I going to far in regard to asking for the stove to be re-installed?  What is your interpretation of the 5 year comprehensive warranty as found at http://www.pacificenergy.net/warranty.php ??


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## madison (Nov 12, 2009)

Sisu,

I understand and empathize with your frustrations.

My general opinion is that the fireplace/stove appliance "Industry" is not the most customer friendly, organized or very well run.

Bottom line, it may behoove any future customers to thoroughly check out their dealer i.e. references, longevity, better business bureau etc. as 'he" going to be the one you really have to deal with for service.  I do not think your experience would be any different no matter what brand, or warranty you may have purchased.

And I would argue that the manufacturers warranty claims are ,,,,  i am at a loss for the proper legal term, bogus, as the manufacturer has made warranty issues a dealer issue, and as you have found out, the some dealers seems to only be associating himself with the manufacturer for the sale of the unit only, and not representing the manufacturer for product support.  It would be interesting to see the agreements that a dealer has to make to sell a manufacturer's product.

Hope this makes sense, my opinion for what is is worth....


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## Hogwildz (Nov 13, 2009)

Sisu,
As much as I understand your frustration, I can see the dealer's concern regarding liability.
If something should go wrong whether due to the install or not, anyone involved including your homeowners Ins. will go directly after the dealer if they reinstall it.
You can try and ask them if they will install if you agree to sign a waiver of some sort, relieving them of any liability.
Just me, but if they were willing to get it in the opening, and it was a matter of me reconnecting the liner and surround etc. I myself would just do it, knowing it was done right, and not having to wait a day longer than I had to.
I understand you position and frustration. The worst part is over, time to get burning again. But again, that is me & my opinion. You need to do what is best for you and what you feel is right.
Keep us posted.


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## Sisu (Nov 13, 2009)

Thanks for the support Madison!  I would agree that the PE warranty is poorly written.  But no matter how poorly written, it is still written and legally binding.  If the warranty is not honoured that would be a "breach of warranty" and litigation would be the proper recourse.  Like Brotherbart stated in post #29, I am pretty confident any judge looking at the warranty would side with the customer.  

Well I did receive two email responses from Cory at PE.  The first was a reply to my email: _"Your point is understood and I will try and accommodate as best I can."_  That was it.  I am not sure how to interpret it.  No answers in regard to my questions about the warranty interpretation etc.  In the second email he sent a PDF screenshot of their database with the addition that the 5 year comprehensive warranty has been renewed another 5 years.* Edit: Correction.  It says it was extended to November 3, 2011. * However, without an official interpretation on what the 5 year comprehensive warranty entails, I don't have full confidence in it.  

Hi Hog!  Yeah I mentioned about signing a waiver in my telephone discussion with Cory, absolving the dealership of liability, but I did not get a committed answer.  He did state that he could try to talk to them about getting it in the fireplace, but I would still be responsible with the connection etc.  We did take a lot of screws out of the connectors from the insert to the line (one took almost 25 minutes to get out), to finally disconnect the unit. 

With the three parties, it is easy for each party to point a finger at the other and say "It wasn't me".  I understand if the dealership does have have liability issues.  However, they are acting as an agent of PE and should be under PE's full guidance and warranty coverage to do what needs to be done.   

Regardless, I was expecting PE to take control and make the process reasonably painless, seamless and timely.  I might be splitting hairs on this one, but I am getting a bit tired of fighting for each step of the way and being told something different on different days.  If I hadn't come here to seek guidance, and followed up every step of the way with the parties involved, my stove would still be sitting here cracked and the warranty claim would be gathering dust in warranty purgatory.

It is a matter of principle now, and I was expecting a bit more from PE.  I bought a PE because of its reputation and warranty.  If I expected any less, I would have gone with another manufacturer.  They have come through reasonably almost all the way, I just don't want them to fall short now. 

And yes, I want to get burning asap!


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## BrotherBart (Nov 13, 2009)

I hate to be the bad buy but if it was a cash and carry self install in the first place I think it pretty much should be the same for the repaired stove. Of course I have always thought patching up the stove was a crock in the first place. When I got a defective stove ESW replaced it with a new one but I never expected them to install it since I installed the first one.


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## branchburner (Nov 13, 2009)

I think a lot is being made of the warranty semantics here. In general, the warranty states: "Pacific Energy will replace any part found to be defective (parts and labor) for five years from the date of purchase.” Then after that it states more specifically: “Any part that shows in our judgment evidence of defect shall be repaired, replaced or refunded at Pacific Energy’s option.” Personally, I do not believe the two statements contradict each other. The second statement simply gives more detail, and clarifies and defines the term "replace" as used in the first statement (which does not specifically say "replace with a shiny brand new factory-original part").  To some, a "replaced part" may imply something other than a "repaired part". The warranty makes clear this is not implicit. The word "replace" has a broader definition than maybe some would like it to in this context. 

I do agree that the wording is needlessly confusing. Instead of "replace" it should read "replace or repair" to avoid misinterpretation. So lets take a vote: should the PE warranty be replaced, or be repaired?


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## Sisu (Nov 13, 2009)

BrotherBart:

I can see your point.  This might be a trivial matter.  However, the flip side is that I originally installed the stove without any expectation of removing and reinstalling it again.  Reinstallation is going to be a lot more difficult than the original install, since alot more things were dismantled this time around.  For example, I am hoping they put back the heat shield and fan to the firebox, which was removed during the repair.  

If the product is under the 5 year warranty, that includes labour and should technically cover the cost of installation.   The dealer should be operating under PE's warranty and not pay for anything out of their own pocket.  The dealer contacts I have spoken to so far have indicated that it is a monetary issue of who is picking up the tab and not a liability issue.  

Also, everything was working prior to the removal, I want to make sure that is the case when it is reinstalled.  I don't want to have to call them back after the fact, if something is wrong (eg. fan not working).  

I feel that had the process been quicker etc., I would be a more forgiving.  And yes, replacement would have been way faster.

Branchburner:

I don't agree with your interpretation of "replace".  A warranty is a legal agreement between the manufacturer and consumer.  As such, it needs to be explicit and not open to interpretation.  If it is vague and/or misleading, it does not serve either the manufacturer nor the consumer well.  

In this case, there are two warranties; the 5 year comprehensive and the limited lifetime.  Reading the warranty page, it is impossible to say that the "conditions" statement applies to both warranties.  If "replace" in the 5 year comprehensive warranty means "replace or repair" it should be defined as such in the warranty or just written "replace or repair".  

As the consumer I read "replace" as "replace" in the statement about the 5 year comprehensive.  Reading the warranty, I understand that the 5 year comprehensive warranty is better than the limited lifetime warranty.   Logic dictates that the company has made a better warranty for this time frame because the number of issues should be low and the company would want to appease and reassure the customer if an issue does arise.  Also, the warranty does make other clear distinctions (eg. labour is not covered under the limited lifetime warranty).  

PE promotes their warranty as the best in the business or "industry leader".  Therefore, it needs to be re-written, if the language used is not what is being practiced.  I vote that the warranty needs to be repaired.


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## crazy_dan (Nov 13, 2009)

Hog if it was a liability issue, then they could just refund me my $$$ and I would go buy something else. This unit was repair by the manufacturer / dealer, so I would assume this to be as safe to use as the day it was brand new. If they were to balk at the idea of a reinstall because of liability then they would need to take the stove back until they made it right, or refund my $$$.


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## 53flyer (Nov 13, 2009)

My apologies if anyone is offended by my opinions.  I certainly don't pretend to say I can't be wrong on any of my points but, as with anyone who has an opinion, I believe myself to be correct until convinced otherwise.  That's the great thing about a open debate, it allows for the uncovering of ideas/thoughts that may otherwise get missed if everyone agreed on "everything".    

1) I’m sorry but replace in no way = repair (no matter where it’s looked up).  As far as semantics, just because “restore” is found in the definition of both repair and replace in no way means they are equivalent.  Irt repair, restore is used as in “to fix” whereas irt replace, restore is used as in “to put back” (to "re" "place" the item).  Those are two totally different meanings.  You can’t “replace” something by trying to repairing it.  

2) *Sisu-* Regarding interpretation of the warranty: As in any contract, this “is” open to interpretation.  That’s why we have such big business in the area of contractual law around the world.  Unfortunately, for various reasons, contracts are purposely written to be vague “in certain areas” so as to limit responsibilities of the party that is typically presenting the contract.  That allows a lot of judges to have employment making decisions on what their interpretation of “it” is…  Similar arguments could be made for our "simple" cough, cough, tax codes & insurance paperwork but l digress.

Aside from that (imo), you’re 100% correct.  The warranty does contradict itself but unfortunately it’s most likely on purpose.  The first part (1st for a reason) provides a great selling point and is the only part emphasized in the selling stage.  The second part provides an out for the company.  The second part does not simply “clarify” the first statement.  In fact it “completely changes” (weakens) it.  You go from an iron clad “we will replace something that is “defective” (period) to “maybe” we’ll replace it (with some grey area).  The contradiction is in the finality of the 2 statements.  To correct it they would have to either:
*A.* Remove the words repair and refund from the conditions statement and make it clear that those conditions only apply to the limited lifetime part (after 5yrs) of the warranty.
*B.* Rewrite the 5yr to say repaired, replaced or refunded. 
Doing A reduces any potential wiggle room thereby opening them up to higher warranty claims (although if you don’t have numerous “defects” that wouldn’t be an issue would it?).  Doing B actually turns a huge selling point (one I’ve heard pushed at both local PE dealers who heavily emphasized "replace") into a negative.  That’s why you won’t see them do either.  A good compromise would be making it an iron clad replacement of defective parts for say, 2yrs, then a repair, replace, refund type warranty for the next 3.  However, you most likely won’t see any change at all.  

At this point a person might be more concerned with the fact that nothing has been said on PE’s behalf irt the problem being discovered &/or a corrective fix being made.  This causes the appearance of a business as usual attitude (weather accurate or not).  In the absence of action, perception becomes reality and PE’s perceived lack of action (proactive action) irt the “*much bigger issue*” of what’s causing these failures could very reasonably be perceived as a nonchalant, reactive attitude to some people.  1-2 problems out of thousands may be flukes but this many similar ones, among such a small relative sample size, are seemingly impossible to write off as such.  In all actuality this is highly suggestive of a defective manufacturing &/or assembly process more than a fluke and repairing the “visible” problem areas doesn’t constitute fixing the underlying problem does it?  It’s suggestive of that due to the span of time these problems cover and the previously mentioned fact that for every 1 reported there are most likely *20+ unreported* just due to the nature of the difficulty in locating the problem (for average owners) without being made aware to even look for it. To some (not all) people, the refund part of the warranty could actually begin to looking more appealing under these circumstances based on the simple premise that “if” nothing substantial has been done to correct this problem then what does that say irt their approach taken on other potential problems.  A company should be ever vigilant to ensure doubt isn’t allowed to raise its head irt their product or practices.  

I’m truly thrilled for those who are happy with PE’s response to their issues and hope you don’t end up having recurring problems going forward.  Personally, PE went from 1 of 4 to off my list because I’ve seen nothing from them to indicate they’ve made any changes to correct what reasonably appears to be an obvious problem.  I’d also rather not buy something with the expectation that I’ll “need to” to enforce a warranty and go through the involved hassle.  I do remain interested to see if they take the corrective actions that should be done irt the underlying problem.  That would cause me to consider PE again.


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## 53flyer (Nov 13, 2009)

Setting aside the replace/repair topic I do see both sides of the “they re-install or I do” dilemma but it really shouldn’t matter if its cash and carry or a full install.  In the end it’s usually more a matter of the size and permanent nature of an item.  A defective TV would generally need to be taken in for warranty work but a gas furnace or even a washing machine would typically be fixed by having a repairman come out to take care of it (with the manufacturer/dealer taking care of the details).  If it can’t be fixed in place then it’s on the furnace/washing machine manufacturer to take it away and re-install a fixed or replacement unit iot make the customer whole again (basically put them back to where they’d be if the manufacturers item wasn’t “defective”).  A big wood burning stove, or even more permanent insert, is a whole lot closer to the furnace or washing machine than the TV in this manner.  If not for PE’s manufacturing defect the customer wouldn’t need to move & fix these stoves in the first place and PE should be taking responsibility for correcting the problems with their defective item and returning it to the customer in a pre-defective stove status.


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## MovingOffGrid (Nov 13, 2009)

If it was my Summit and I was a cash and carry customer, I would be adequately happy they drop my refurbished stove in place.  IMHO they shouldn't be asked to take the liability of a full install.

Until the product issue is proven with time, to actually be faulty materials or workmanship, this seems to me like the best they can do without admitting product defect.  Repair what *may* look to them like over firing, without annoying the customer and accusing of any wrong doing.  However, if more and more Summits keep going bad, future stove owners may have an easier time of holding their feet to the fire. 

I sympathize with you guys.

Fingers crossed these are isolated incidences and my Summit doesn't also end up in the welding shop in a few years.  Fortunately for me, you early adopters are blazing the product quality trail and time will tell if there are/were real defect issues they will be forced to address en masse (every manufacturers nightmare I'm sure).   

New stoves all around


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## madison (Nov 13, 2009)

53Flyer,

Well stated, a great read.


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## ssordo (Nov 14, 2009)

I second that Madison. IMHO warranties should be written for the customer, giving them a level of comfort in knowing they are purchasing a product that is fully backed by the manufacturer. It seems these days that warranties are written only to be deciphered by overpaid lawyers who spend hours cutting through the BS thats compiled in just a few sentences.  Either PE stands behind their product and their words or they don't. I cook for a living, if a customer is unhappy with something it is either replaced or comp'd, I stand behind what I sell. I know that sounds very simplistic but the fact is a happy customer is worth it's weight in gold! I just pulled the trigger on a Buck 91, was going to buy the PE Summit from a dealer which is closer to me and with whom I've dealt with in the past on my VC. If PE thinks this forum or the internet in general doesn't have an effect on their business or an impact on potential customers they are sadly mistaken. The buying public makes or breaks a company, I feel they should at least honor their words and maybe even go a little above and beyond to keep their customers happy. Hope everything turns out for the best for all involved.


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## pilot-werx (Nov 14, 2009)

cntrychef said:
			
		

> I second that Madison. IMHO warranties should be written for the customer, giving them a level of comfort in knowing they are purchasing a product that is fully backed by the manufacturer. It seems these days that warranties are written only to be deciphered by overpaid lawyers who spend hours cutting through the BS thats compiled in just a few sentences.  Either PE stands behind their product and their words or they don't. I cook for a living, if a customer is unhappy with something it is either replaced or comp'd, I stand behind what I sell. I know that sounds very simplistic but the fact is a happy customer is worth it's weight in gold! I just pulled the trigger on a Buck 91, was going to buy the PE Summit from a dealer which is closer to me and with whom I've dealt with in the past on my VC. If PE thinks this forum or the internet in general doesn't have an effect on their business or an impact on potential customers they are sadly mistaken. The buying public makes or breaks a company, I feel they should at least honor their words and maybe even go a little above and beyond to keep their customers happy. Hope everything turns out for the best for all involved.



Could not agree more.  In my business my word is everything.  Yes things are put in writing so the lawyer types are happy, but if I cannot back up my word, let alone what I put on paper, then I should not be in business.  As I have said before, I am happy with Summit but given that this has gone on for 15 pages and I have not see one response from the company, my current Summit will be the last PE product I purchase.


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## Hogwildz (Nov 14, 2009)

crazy_dan said:
			
		

> Hog if it was a liability issue, then they could just refund me my $$$ and I would go buy something else. This unit was repair by the manufacturer / dealer, so I would assume this to be as safe to use as the day it was brand new. If they were to balk at the idea of a reinstall because of liability then they would need to take the stove back until they made it right, or refund my $$$.



Dan, the liability issue would not be with the stove itself, but the install, liner/pipe connection etc.


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## Hogwildz (Nov 14, 2009)

I know of no cash & carry purchases, that a warranty covers the removal & re-installation off the product.
If you purchase a part for your car, a Tv, etc, most of the time, you are responsible to bring it to the place of purchase, or a qualified repair facility.
Now on some things, you can buy an extended warranty which would cover the transport. Unless a warranty details removal, transportation and reinstallation is included in the warranty, I don't see many manufacturers actually covering this..
I can't say there is no such warranty for a product anywhere, but if there is, it is spelled out in the warranty, and sometimes its also spelled out these things are not included. 

Many warrantied could use better wording. Not saying these issues are right, just that they are.

I am, reading the PE warranty now:
Looks like some parts could be vague or interpreted either way.
In the end, I am happy with my Insert, the way the company responded, and still feel its one of the better warranties out there.
I am glad I opted for the in place repair. Made the uninstall,


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## thechimneysweep (Nov 14, 2009)

As a PE dealer for over 20 years, I have always found them to be more than responsive to the rare warranty claims we've presented to them.  They've been quick to assess the situation and authorize repair or replacement of the affected part as needed.  Regardless of the wording in their warranty, they have never quibbled, and have in fact satisfied every customer, even in cases where the problem was clearly operator abuse.  They have also compensated us for our time spent resolving each claim.

I believe this thread clearly illustrates this about PE: they stand by their warranty.  The problems and complaints listed above seem to all derive from perceived slow response or mis-handling of the claim by the dealer and/or distributor, over whom PE has no direct control, other than to jerk their dealership if and when that extreme action is warranted.

In defense of those dealers, it would be charitable to keep in mind that most hearth product dealers do a year's business in about four or five months, and this is the middle of that time period.  It is CRAZY busy this time of year.

At present, all of my employees are working six days a week, 10 hours a day, and we're booked up until after Christmas.  If one of our customers came to us with a warranty complaint similar to Sisu's or Hog's today, we could offer him or her three choices:

Wait until Monday, December 28th, our next available opening, and we'll come get your stove and fix it for you.

Hire the welder of your choice to make repairs (the Hog solution), and send us the bill.

Come down to the shop, take a copy of our job board, and start calling scheduled customers (who've already been waiting several weeks for their appointments) until you find one who's willing to be bumped forward another six weeks so we can take care of your warranty claim.  We'd do this for you, but a) the phone rings constantly this time of year, so we don't have an open line, b) our showroom is crowded with people who need help, so we don't have the personnel, and c) experience tells us your efforts to bump a scheduled customer will be futile.

I know this thread has provided a wonderful opportunity to do some PE bashing, but you might want to consider the possibility, borne out by the postings I see above, that Pacific Energy (and the beleaguered dealers involved) are honestly doing the best they can.


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## iceman (Nov 14, 2009)

thechimneysweep said:
			
		

> As a PE dealer for over 20 years, I have always found them to be more than responsive to the rare warranty claims we've presented to them.  They've been quick to assess the situation and authorize repair or replacement of the affected part as needed.  Regardless of the wording in their warranty, they have never quibbled, and have in fact satisfied every customer, even in cases where the problem was clearly operator abuse.  They have also compensated us for our time spent resolving each claim.
> 
> The problems and complaints in this thread seem to all derive from perceived slow response or mis-handling of the claim by the dealer and/or distributor, over whom PE has no direct control, other than to jerk their dealership if and when that extreme action is warranted.  I believe this thread clearly illustrates this about PE: they stand by their warranty.
> 
> ...






Tom,  Hog,

i agree with you guys....
i understand the other good points brought up by people....   but if i was a dealer, i would not want to spend money on going to get a stove and reinstall if i didnt already do it.....    now lets say the dealer reinstalls it and heaven forbid but a fire starts next week....  no major damage the owner puts out the fire, the first person you are gonna blame is the dealer who installed it because when the owner did it it worked fine for 3 years so it cant be his install tht caused the fire.....  Do you see where i am going?  that is besides the amount of time and money i have to pay my installer when it was a cash and carry and now someone who wants a stove + install has to wait ......  
cmon guys i understand, if it were me i would want pe to take care of everything..  but how many other dealers/companies would simply say its due to overfire?  
i dont think anyone/company is perfect but i do think pe did try to resolve the issue with a good amount of fairness,  alot of companies would leave you to deal with the dealer...  i wish they would simply send you new stoves and be done ... but maybe they are reading and afraid they will have to send out alot more because everyone from here will want one.....
my stove hasnt broken yet and if it does i will try to get the welder to come here like hog did.....
but this wouldnt stop me from buying another one...  there are many satisfied lexus owners out there and there are a few people that have nothing but bad things with there lexus....  but we all know lexus makes a good car and those are isolated problems outta 100s of thousands of cars....

lets not give up on pe ........yet


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## Sisu (Nov 14, 2009)

I understand that all the party's involved have their interests and challenges.  I have no interest in PE bashing nor dealer bashing, the main purpose of this thread is to document my warranty claim.  Believe me, I am not giving up on PE either.  

But dealership and manufacturer perspectives aside, let us not forget these considerations of my current situation as the customer:

1.  The only party who mentioned liability about the reinstall is the manufacturer PE, in conjecture about the dealerships hesitation.  Cory thought that that might be the reason why the dealer was hesitating.  However, the dealership contacts stated it was due to a monetary issue (and not a liability issue) and that they (the dealership) will have to pick up the tab for the install.  Also, the dealership mentioned the removal was done in good faith on their part.  So who is really paying for labour etc. that should be under the warranty claim?  Why isn't this being clarified between dealer and manufacturer?  

2.  I do understand it is a busy season, but the dealership has never stated that they were too busy to remove or reinstall the stove.  Their hesitation has only been a result of that they did not know what was covered by the warranty (eg. labour), their role in the warranty etc.  
This warranty claim process started on September 28 and we are now into November.  At first the initial dealer contact didn't come through, and had said he had done things (eg. sent the warranty claim) when he had not.  Most of the time was spent trying to get the parties (the dealership, the distributor, and manufacturer) to make decisions.  Other times, the dealership (not really their fault) didn't know their role.  Once the decisions were made and roles clarified, the work was done.  IMO, the manufacturer is the one who should spearhead the claim and make sure that all parties are aware of their roles and responsibilities.

3.  There were no answers provided by Cory (the Manager, Technical and Customer Services for PE) in regard to my email.  First, I asked if the distributor (who conducted the repairs) provided any feed back in regard to signs of over-firing etc.  Secondly, I asked what is the proper interpretation of the 5 year comprehensive warranty in regard to "replace".  All I got so far was _“Your point is understood and I will try and accommodate as best I can.”_

4.  I consider the repair of the stove to be a fair compromise.  According to Tom's first post in this thread, had I been totally negligent, I would have received a brand new stove!?  The 5 year comprehensive warranty uses the word "replace".  
As such, connecting the firebox to the liner under PE's warranty shouldn't be an issue.

5.  I was told that the reinstall would happen, by the dealership contact, during the removal of the insert.  Therefore, I had an expectation this was going to occur.

At the time of purchase, the PE warranty was one of the selling points.  I had no intention of using the warranty, but now that I have to, I am starting to learn its pros and cons.  My interest as the customer is I want the stove I had paid for; free of defects and operating as advertised for a reasonable lifespan.  I am sure that is something we can all agree upon.

Hog:  Out of curiousity you stated in post #225 _"Dan, if you purchased it within the past 5 years, THEY ARE TO COME UNINSTALL AND HAUL IT OUT TO GET WELDED & REINSTALL , which Sisu & I have already been told, DEALER IS TO COME GET IT AND PUT IT BACK UNDER WARRANTY!. Tell the dealer to get it together, or you can call Cory at PE also, he has been helpful."_  That is what we were told.  Why have you changed your tone?  How many new PE stoves do you own now, you feral swine!?!  

53 Flyer:  Ditto Madison "Well stated".


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## Hogwildz (Nov 15, 2009)

Sisu,
I should have corrected myself earlier.
The dealer said he was ok with mobile welder coming out, due to the fact it would cost him more in labor to come get the stove, take to welding shop, and bring back. He never really did state he would uninstall & reinstall.
I am not sure whether he would or not. But I have a feeling I would have had to uninstall, let them come get, and bring back, and I would have to reinstall.
I forget his exact words, but I don't remember him ever saying exactly that he would uninstall & reinstall. I just took for granted that they would if need be, as I assumed that is how it would go.
Maybe he would remove & install, but the more I am reading and the dealings, I doubt it would have gone that way. Sorry for the mix up.


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## Dirtgrain (Nov 16, 2009)

I've followed the whole thread, and I am veering away from PE for my upcoming purchase of a fireplace insert.  Am I overreacting?  How big is this problem?  Should I avoid the PE Summit?  Right now, I'm zeroing in on Lopi or Avalon, but the Summit keeps calling to me.


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## begreen (Nov 16, 2009)

Both will heat your house just fine. PE has a nice design, but other designs work well too. Travis makes good stoves. 

We're still happy and not loosing any sleep about our Alderlea. PE is on it and that's what is most important to us.


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## ribs1 (Nov 16, 2009)

thechimneysweep said:
			
		

> At present, all of my employees are working six days a week, 10 hours a day, and we're booked up until after Christmas.  If one of our customers came to us with a warranty complaint similar to Sisu's or Hog's today, we could offer him or her three choices:
> 
> Wait until Monday, December 28th, our next available opening, and we'll come get your stove and fix it for you.



I say this is total garbage.  That's 5 weeks away.  Warranty work should have priority over new work.  Somebody already bought a stove from you and paid you to install that stove.  Now the stove has a problem.  Waiting until December 28th to have it fixed is totally unacceptable.  Sure, new jobs pay and warranty work does not, but when you sell a product with a warranty, you have to expect to keep time open or have the flexibility to honor those warranties in a timely fashion.  If you are too busy to honor warranties, then you are too busy to accept new work.
I would be out of business if I operated like this.


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## Nonprophet (Nov 16, 2009)

ribs1 said:
			
		

> thechimneysweep said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



X2!  The reason you're so busy is because it's cold and people are looking for heat!  Likewise, so is the guy who already bought his stove from you, and now, through no fault of his own (a defective stove) he's supposed to freeze for 5 weeks???  Lastly, warranty work DOES pay--the stove manufacturer reimburses the dealer for warranty work (in most cases). If I had to wait 5 weeks to get service on my defective $3,000 stove, I'd be demanding a refund and take my business someplace else.......

NP


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## crazy_dan (Nov 16, 2009)

Nonprophet said:
			
		

> ribs1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Really bashing a business owner that has nothing to do with this? Just offering some insite to how he does buisness. Has this worked you guys in the past? I would book new and old business the same way first come first serve, IE you get your name in the appointment book in the order the appointment was requested. So what you guys are saying is I should bump a new stove install that pays today because the warranty work does pay eventually? If everybody did this then they would be out of business because payday still comes on Friday this Friday not some distant one.


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## Sisu (Nov 16, 2009)

crazy_dan said:
			
		

> Nonprophet said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



While we discuss the challenges for dealerships etc., I think it is important to be clear about two issues.  The delay now with my warranty claim, according to the information I have, has nothing to do with liability issues or time constaints.  

First of all, the dealer did not indicate (so far) that the reluctance to reinstall the stove was about liability.  They indicated that the issue was that they paid for the removal and were going to have to pay for the reinstall themselves.  Therefore, it is a manufacturer/dealership issue (ie. does the warranty cover this).   The warranty states that labour is covered, so the reinstall should be included?!

In regard to liability, if I had a chimney fire after the install, I would be blaming myself, since I clean and inspect my own liner etc.  If the install of the liner was proved to be the problem, I would be going after the original installer of the liner.  If the stove overfired, due to a crack etc. and caused a fire, I would be blaming the manufacturer and distributor responsible for the repairs.  The dealership, under PE's warranty blanket, just has to put back the stove in the same condition it was when it was prior to removal (minus the cracks of course).  I would be there, with them, assisting with and inspecting the work.  I would even put in the last screw, to signify that I take responsibility from the dealer for the install.

Secondly, the dealership has not indicated that they are too busy to do the reinstall.  The wait now is due to who is going to pay.  As I stated in the first paragraph, the dealership indicated that they had removed the stove on their own dime.  I do believe that this was to be covered under the warranty.  Therefore that would lead me to believe that the manufacturer is intentionally/unintentionally not being clear with the dealer, in regard to roles/responsibilities/warranty coverage.

Another thing that bothers me a bit, is that Cory from PE has not answered the questions in my email I had sent him, in regard to the condition of my stove or the interpretation of the 5 year comprehensive warranty (refer to post #303 and his response in post #306).  He is the Manager for Technical and Customer Services and should be able to clarify those issues.  I am not sure if the lack of answers was intentional or unintentional.  What does everyone think of his response?


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## pilot-werx (Nov 16, 2009)

thechimneysweep said:
			
		

> As a PE dealer for over 20 years, I have always found them to be more than responsive to the rare warranty claims we've presented to them.  They've been quick to assess the situation and authorize repair or replacement of the affected part as needed.  Regardless of the wording in their warranty, they have never quibbled, and have in fact satisfied every customer, even in cases where the problem was clearly operator abuse.  They have also compensated us for our time spent resolving each claim.
> 
> I believe this thread clearly illustrates this about PE: they stand by their warranty.  The problems and complaints listed above seem to all derive from perceived slow response or mis-handling of the claim by the dealer and/or distributor, over whom PE has no direct control, other than to jerk their dealership if and when that extreme action is warranted.
> 
> ...



Two things.....  One, Really glad I did not buy a stove from you...  Two, that is the most ludicrous piece of customer service advice I have ever seen....


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## Sisu (Nov 16, 2009)

Update:

*November 16, 2009* - Lynn from the dealership called to say that they are picking up the stove and will schedule for the reinstallation.  She stated that she tried to contact Cory from PE, but still has not heard back from him.  She stated not to worry and that the dealership and distributor will be sending PE their bills for the warranty work.  Lynn has been awesome through this whole process.

So they just have to look at their schedule and I will be getting my stove back!


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## ribs1 (Nov 16, 2009)

pilot-werx said:
			
		

> thechimneysweep said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Me too.  When someone spends in the neighborhood of 4000 bucks, they deserve to know their warranty will be served in a timely fashion.
The stove business is not the only business that is seasonally busy.


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## thechimneysweep (Nov 16, 2009)

> At present, all of my employees are working six days a week, 10 hours a day, and we’re booked up until after Christmas.



So, who would you business experts bump so you send a crew over to take care of the re-install?  Doesn't every customer who called us several weeks ago because they need their chimney cleaned, or their gas stove or furnace serviced, or the stove they paid for installed, or whatever they need us to do, deserve to have us keep our appointment?

I realize there are other seasonal businesses, but submit that there are few businesses as seasonal as ours, that also need professionals trained in a trade as unique as ours who will remain available year after year despite the annual layoffs in the off-season.  We do the best we can with the personnel we have, and do the work in the order it comes in, as that's the fairest way we can come up with to handle the seasonal rush.  We've stayed in business over 30 years with that philosophy, and fostered thousands of loyal customers who are willing to wait six and even eight weeks for an appointment when they delay until the busy season to call.

By the way, inviting a customer to call other customers to hijack their booking date is not something we would actually do.  I was trying to give forum members an insight into the situation Sisu's dealer likely finds himself in, in mid-November, faced with re-installing an insert that took a professional installer, with the help of the homeowner who performed the installation in the first place, over an hour and a half to uninstall.


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## Sisu (Nov 16, 2009)

thechimneysweep said:
			
		

> > At present, all of my employees are working six days a week, 10 hours a day, and we’re booked up until after Christmas.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In an effort to stay on topic, the dealership (although very busy I am sure) has not indicated that time constraints are an issue in this case.  It looks like the dealership is making a real effort to see this through, and I really thank them for it.  Refer to my posts #328 and #330 for more details.


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## begreen (Nov 16, 2009)

We've had several stoves, some bought from stove and spa stores that forgot your name the moment you were out of the door and some from great stores like the Chimney Sweep. Personally working with Tom's shop was one of the most pleasurable stove experiences I've had. They will bend over backward to help you out and although they may not be able to solve your problem instantly, they stay in very close touch with the customer. There aren't many shops out there that offer a satisfaction guarantee and back it up so well.


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## thechimneysweep (Nov 16, 2009)

Thanks, BG.  As always, your fiver is in the mail.


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## Wacky1 (Nov 16, 2009)

I, personally did not buy from Tom.  But I will say this, I emailed a question about an insert for my home, on a Sunday, and within a few hours I got a response, with very helpful information.  He helped me decide which one would work the best for my needs.  He was able to explain to me what I needed.  I did not get the impression that he was "just out to make a sale".  The information he provided me ,and  has on his website,  quick response to my questions was the deciding factor for me to buy my PE.  I purchased locally because I do that when I can.  If I could not find a reputable dealer locally, I would have purchased from Tom.  I am happy with my insert and its performance.  And I have piece of mind knowing that PE does stand behind their product. Thanks again Tom, for all you do to help out your fellow wood burners. ;-)


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## BrotherBart (Nov 16, 2009)

A lesson from this thread:

No matter what brand stove you have or where you bought it, look it over good every year. IN MAY!


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## Hogwildz (Nov 16, 2009)

thechimneysweep said:
			
		

> Thanks, BG.  As always, your fiver is in the mail.



I second that Tom is top notch. Hell I order whatever I need from him most the time, across the country, rather than deal with local, because local is not as knowledgeable & service oriented.
There are good dealers, and there are not so good dealers. If a dealer is booked up for 5 weeks, there is a reason for that, cause he is a good dealer!
Not directed as Sisu, but the other comments, having a hissy fit like a 2 year old because you have to wait your turn, is just that, acting like a baby not getting their way.
These issues are not a, come fix it in an hour and be done with it. If it was, it would be done. Its not a matter of loosening a screw or two, replacing a part, and going on your merry way.
I just love how folks love to jump in the mix and start bashing everything & everyone just to stir shat up.  If ya have nothing positive to add to the thread, then go to the ash can and post your opinions etc there.
Negativity does not solve issues. This thread is a serious issue several owners are having, either contribute in a helpful manner, or please take it up in another thread.
Thank you for your understanding in advance.

I am sure glad I had them come fix in place, sure saved a wait & headaches.
I am not saying everyone has that option, or it works for all. But I still feel the customer should do all they can on their side to also mitigate the issue.
Again, not attacking you Sisu, seems you are staying pro-active, and that is a good thing. Or I would think your wait would be even longer.

Seriously guys/gals, either contribute in a positive way here, or move on.
The ash can has plenty of trolls just waiting for you. Go feed em there.


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## Hogwildz (Nov 16, 2009)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> A lesson from this thread:
> 
> No matter what brand stove you have or where you bought it, look it over good every year. IN MAY!



X100, I was guilty of that myself. Live & learn, usually the hard way for me.


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## Sisu (Nov 16, 2009)

No worries Hog!  I too think some of this discussion (ie. about best practices for the dealership) is getting off topic.  My experience has been that it also depends who you deal within the dealership.  If you remember, the first dealer contact said he did things when he didn't do them (sending in my warranty claim), never called when my baffle arrived, and generally made me feel like he didn't care at all.  Since then, I have dealt with Lynn and Herb, who are also working at the same dealership.  They have been honest, top notch, professional, and empathetic.  All which is a part of a good business.  

As the customer, I have tried to make a point to be empathetic and professional.  I haven't yelled, been snarky, whined or been unreasonable.  I have, like Hog said, tried to be pro-active and to be informed of every stage.  I have asked questions during the different stages, many of which I can credit to other posters in this forum!  

There is debate whether or not I am asking for too much by getting the reinstall done by the dealership etc.  I respect everyone's opinion, but the person I was hoping to receive an official answer was from Cory.  I am a bit disappointed and curious why I haven't received a direct answer for Cory to my questions, as he is the one who directly applies and enforces the PE warranty.  I, and I am sure many other posters here, would like to know exactly what the official interpretation of the 5 year comprehensive warranty is and what things are and are not covered.  

Regardless, the reinstall seems to be a go.  All it needs is to be scheduled.  I am not sure who made the official decision, but I am glad that it was done.


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## Csmith (Nov 16, 2009)

Smitty said:
			
		

> Just to pile on here, checked my summit insert (circa 2006) and it has exactly the same problem areas



I spoke with my dealer today.  They are being really cool about the issue.  I am less than impressed with PE's response to them.  I went ahead and let them know that I want the stove replaced (not repaired).  For a woodstove a little over 3 years old and only used 3 winters to have such a issue and PE not being more forth coming about fixing it gives me a sinking feeling.  Luckily it is not my only source of heat otherwise I would be downright angry.


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## MovingOffGrid (Nov 17, 2009)

Smitty .... what stove are you getting to replace it?  another Summit?  have they provided any re-assurances that the weld problems won't re-occur?

dealer giving you any options for new stove?

if you get another Summit to replace it, will you burn it any differently next time?  (not meant to be a loaded question, just wondering if you'd treat it any differently).

after re-reading this thread, I realize my questions may be a bit premature, but I'm all ears when you know more


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## Sisu (Nov 17, 2009)

Smitty said:
			
		

> Smitty said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Smitty what has been PE's response so far?  Who did you speak to from PE?  

I have yet to receive an official answer about the 5 year comprehensive warranty in regard to the interpretation of "replace" and what is exactly covered under it.  Keep good records what everyone (ie. dealer, manufacturer, etc.) tells you and when.  

You are welcome to document your claim on this thread.  Let us know what happens.


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## CK-1 (Nov 17, 2009)

iceman said:
			
		

> thechimneysweep said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Your Business Module only includes monetary gain and leaves out any hopes for customer satisfaction.   The dealer un-installed the stove to begin with and should re-install the stove as well.   A Waiver should be created removing them from any liability with the owner present during installation.  To be a good business you don't start a job and not finish it with liability execuses.   If a fire starts due to the dealers install, then they shouldn't be in the fireplace business to begin with.    If the owner had disconnected the stove, then the dealer should give a price of what if would cost for them to re-install it.   If the owner declines the price, the dealer says goodbye and is out the door at this point.


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## Csmith (Nov 19, 2009)

Not sure if this has been brought up yet.  But according to the wikipedia article on Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson–Moss_Warranty_Act

"Under the terms of the Act, ambiguous statements in a warranty are construed against the drafter of the warranty"

IANAL, but replaced=replaced.  I am sure that PE had a team of lawyers draft the warranty, so it possible that I am missing something entirely, or possibly they never anticipated this situation.

Regarding over firing, I have not over fired the stove but found this article that would call into question how that would be determined.  Unfortunately it contains no references, so it just might be made up:

http://machinedesign.com/article/warranty-coverage-avoiding-self-inflicted-wounds-0927

My concern is this, every person that I have mentioned the reweld to me looks at me like I have two heads.  Meaning they think I would be crazy to accept it.  What if the welds fail again or if there are other welds not visible yet that are failing that could cause catastrophic failure.

I contacted the Office of Consumer Affairs in my state about the warranty, but they will only investigate if I place a complaint, which at this time I do not want to do.

There is still a discussion going on, so I am giving the process some time before commenting on it.


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## Hogwildz (Nov 19, 2009)

CK-1 said:
			
		

> iceman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If I remember correctly, this dealer did not perform the original install, but inherited the issues of the stove due to the installing dealer no longer being around.
Sisu, can correct me if I am wrong.


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## Sisu (Nov 19, 2009)

Hi Hog,

You are correct.  The dealership, in my case, did not conduct the original install.  However, at this point, they are acting as an agent of PE, via the warranty, and have agreed to conduct the reinstallation.  

I spoke to Cory from PE this evening (since they are three hours behind being out in BC).  I had a good chat with him and he was calling just to see how everything was going.  He said he spoke to the distributor in regard to the weld repairs to my stove to ensure it was more than complete.

He did say that they have noticed a small number of stoves have exhibited cracks in the areas we have seen.  He stated that these were in stoves that were run pretty hard, but he made a point to say that they were not overfired.  He said that the internal cracks that they have seen settle out and do not continue further, but there too, he made a point saying that they have no problems repairing any cracks and standing by their warranty.

Anyway it was reassuring to speak with him.  I didn't push the 5 year warranty interpretation, since it seems like things are working out.  Now I just have to wait for the dealership to schedule me in and I will be reunited with my stove!


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## BrotherBart (Nov 19, 2009)

Get thee behind me Satin. And don't push.  :zip:


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## Dix (Nov 19, 2009)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Get thee behind me Satin. And don't push.  :zip:



Satin ... is that like a laquer????


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## BrotherBart (Nov 19, 2009)

Doing The Dixie Eyed Hustle said:
			
		

> BrotherBart said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Alright already. Satan. Beelzebub. The guy with the the biggest OWB. Whatever damn it.  :lol:


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## Dix (Nov 19, 2009)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Doing The Dixie Eyed Hustle said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Heck, BB.. ya left a whole this wide <........................>, I couldn't resist


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## BrotherBart (Nov 19, 2009)

Doing The Dixie Eyed Hustle said:
			
		

> BrotherBart said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I know. I need to get the guy's name right. I have been working for him for 62 years and will be transferred to the the home office some time soon I am sure.  :lol: 

By the way, how wide is a "whole"?


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## Dix (Nov 19, 2009)

Wayyyyy bigger than a hole, that's why it has a "w" in it 

 :lol:


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## Hogwildz (Nov 19, 2009)

Sisu said:
			
		

> Hi Hog,
> 
> You are correct.  The dealership, in my case, did not conduct the original install.  However, at this point, they are acting as an agent of PE, via the warranty, and have agreed to conduct the reinstallation.
> 
> ...



Great news! Congrats. I bet your feeling much better now. Now your going to go nuts wanting it in like yesterday
Anyways, I can think of 2 folks that so far, are very pleased with the warranty and PE standing behind it.
I honestly think they may have more instances of this issue than letting on. But to admit so without checking it out good, would be a PR nightmare.
Time will tell. I still love my Summit, and maybe someday will be loving my Englander also. Gonna have to get Mike or Corie on the phone to discuss clearances.


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## Sisu (Nov 19, 2009)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> Sisu said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks Hog!  Yeah the sooner the better, but I don't want it rushed either.  I just want it done right.  

As soon as it is scheduled, I will let you know.  I will make sure to take a lot of pictures of the reinstalled repaired stove and post them here.  I might have to crack open a few windows when I first fire her up.  How stinky did it get after the new paint heated up for you?


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## Hogwildz (Nov 20, 2009)

Sisu said:
			
		

> Hogwildz said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Was stinkier than I remember on the new install break in fires.
Of course I didn't read the can and fired the insert up about 8 hours after I painted it.
But seems ok, nothing peeling, cracking or flaking off.

Wow just noticed my last post disappeared. Damn right wing mods. I better run to church & confess my sins.


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## CK-1 (Nov 20, 2009)

Sisu said:
			
		

> Hi Hog,
> 
> You are correct.  The dealership, in my case, did not conduct the original install.  However, at this point, they are acting as an agent of PE, via the warranty, and have agreed to conduct the reinstallation.
> 
> ...



Ok..  I'm confused..  Who actually un-installed the stove so it can be repaired?... 

Make sure you inspect that puppy before they bring it into the house.


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## Sisu (Nov 20, 2009)

Ck-1:  The un-installation was done by the dealership, who removed the stove and brought it to a welder that they use.  Their welder stated that he couldn't fix it.  From there, the firebox went to the Distributor's welder, who did apparently fix it.  

Don't worry.  I will be inspecting the stove before it is taken off the truck!  Anyone have access to a portable X-ray machine?!  According to the dealership, the re-install probably won't happen until next week.


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## Hogwildz (Nov 22, 2009)

Well, the house is a nice toasty 75, (a bit warm for me, but you know how women need it to be like the inferno of hell), so far so good. Since getting the EBT hooked up correctly, and all other issued taken care of, I can control the running temps much better. Been cutting it back when thermo reads 400-450 ish, figuring actual stove top temp would be 500-550ish, and she will cruise at that temp or slightly higher. 
Received the reimbursement check from PE a couple days ago. Just got to get to the bank and cash it, then pay the welder and the truck rental.
Total cost including reimbursement for the can of paint.......... $259.00.
A relatively cheap out of pocket expense for PE. I credit the low cost to myself being involved and pro-active, and arranging everything.
I saved them some coin as far as I am concerned, and got the insert fixed.
I credit PE, the dealer & Corey in particular for making this as smooth as it could be. And not giving me the run around.
The dealer really didn't do alot, but I am ok with that, I took control and got er done.
I bet it would have cost alot more if they had to send out for repairs.
So far, so good.


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## Wacky1 (Nov 23, 2009)

Hog, congrats on your repair.  What kind of temps were you running when the EBT was not hooked up properly?  Lately I have been getting temps between 600-750 and when I choke it down it stays there for hours.  I usually start the fires to get the wood to coal like the manual states.  By then the temps are high.  Should I be choking it down sooner?  If I do that the flames extinguish and just smolders but then it still burns everything in the firebox.  Just worry about smoldering building creosote.  Are you filling your firebox full and getting those temps.  I just put about 4 red oak splits 15-16" long getting these temps.
Thanks.


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## Hogwildz (Nov 23, 2009)

Wacky1 said:
			
		

> Hog, congrats on your repair.  What kind of temps were you running when the EBT was not hooked up properly?  Lately I have been getting temps between 600-750 and when I choke it down it stays there for hours.  I usually start the fires to get the wood to coal like the manual states.  By then the temps are high.  Should I be choking it down sooner?  If I do that the flames extinguish and just smolders but then it still burns everything in the firebox.  Just worry about smoldering building creosote.  Are you filling your firebox full and getting those temps.  I just put about 4 red oak splits 15-16" long getting these temps.
> Thanks.



When the EBT flapper was dislodged, she liked to spike to about 750 sometimes higher, even when I cut it back at 400-450-500 etc. Now, if I kill the air at same temps, it seems to hold steady at 550 range face temp, which equates to approx 650 stove top. I haven't loaded her to the gills yet, had some decent loads in it though. I had her up to 650 on the face mounted thermo last night, which I am equating to roughly 750 stove top temp. I am using semi moist Black Walnut. Mostly rounds and bark is still on and holding alot of moisture. It will smolder a tad at the lower temps. In time, as the wood dries out, it will even out the temp in the 550 range. Its still kinda warm here for the season so far. 50's during day, 30-40 at night. I suspect it will burn a lil better when the weather cools a bit more and I can get a stronger draft. Its completely different now, and I may find I have to leave the air lever open a lil bit now. Gonna have to experiment. A full load of good dry oak will be the test. To check the EBT isn't the worst thing in the world to get to. Lemme know if ya decide to, and I'll let ya know what ya have to do.

You might want to try cutting the air back a lil sooner, 450-550 range.


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## Sisu (Nov 23, 2009)

Just wanted to update.  The dealership is coming Thursday morning to install the stove.  I will take some photos of the install and repaired firebox.

How are the warranty claims coming along for the others who have had issues?

Hog: I am glad to hear the stove is working out well.  It sounds like the repaired EBT is giving you more control over your burn.  Awesome!


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## MovingOffGrid (Nov 24, 2009)

Hog ... When you took apart your EBT, how was it jammed - was it just knocked out of place and easily fixed ?  I have not seen mine open since I got the stove, and I have been looking almost daily at various burn times.  Wondering if removing to have a look might be wise if these things have the capacity to be bumped out of place during shipping!  Or was it more difficult to fix than a simple realignment? (not meaning to hijack this thread, I'll keep it short and sweet).  Thanks in advance.


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## MovingOffGrid (Nov 24, 2009)

I believe we had a troll in our midst momentarily, and poof - the posts are gone!


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## BrotherBart (Nov 24, 2009)

MovingOffGrid said:
			
		

> I believe we had a troll in our midst momentarily, and poof - the posts are gone!



I split the posts off to their own thread.


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## Wetcoast Elmira (Nov 25, 2009)

MovingOffGrid said:
			
		

> I believe we had a troll in our midst momentarily, and poof - the posts are gone!



Nope.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/46604/

Thanks BrotherBart.


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## Hogwildz (Nov 25, 2009)

MovingOffGrid said:
			
		

> Hog ... When you took apart your EBT, how was it jammed - was it just knocked out of place and easily fixed ?  I have not seen mine open since I got the stove, and I have been looking almost daily at various burn times.  Wondering if removing to have a look might be wise if these things have the capacity to be bumped out of place during shipping!  Or was it more difficult to fix than a simple realignment? (not meaning to hijack this thread, I'll keep it short and sweet).  Thanks in advance.



It was not so much jammed, as it was totally our of position and not set in place.
Its basically an "L" shaped metal flapper, with a small tab/pin off each side at the bend in the "L".
The rest in a slot on each side that is in a small bracket on each side.
Mine, neither pin was in a slot and the flapper was just laying there, cocked to the side, leaving the hole open full time.
Was easy to fix, The brackets on each side unscrew, put the flapper tabs back in the slots, set the brackets and re-screw.


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## Sisu (Nov 27, 2009)

Update:

*November 25, 2009* - I have my stove back finally!!  The re-install started at around 8:30 am and they finished at 10:30 am.  The dealership guys were top notch and did an excellent job.  It wasn't easy and some Murphy's law occurred.  But they took the time to do the job properly.  They even replaced one ss. connector to make the connection easier.

I did inspect the firebox before it left the truck.  It looks like all the welds were beefed up and hopefully they will hold tight.  The only thing that I did notice was that the small crack in the steel rim was not repaired from the outside and is still visible on close inspection.  It is covered by a weld on the inside, so it is sealed.  I will keep an eye on it and hopefully the other re-welds will remove the stresses of expansion and contraction.  

So I got the stove up and running and I am enjoying the wood heat as I am writing this!  I will write up a final summary when I have more time and have a chance to reflect.  I wish a great Thanksgiving to all of the American woodburners out there!!


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## BrotherBart (Nov 27, 2009)

Looks like you are ready to take on another winter Sisu. Rock and roll brother.


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## Sisu (Nov 27, 2009)

Here are some more photos of the door rim of the stove and the before and after of the install.


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## begreen (Nov 27, 2009)

Good to see it warming again. Got a new baffle too?


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## Sisu (Nov 27, 2009)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Looks like you are ready to take on another winter Sisu. Rock and roll brother.



Thanks BrotherBart!  The majority of success in this warranty claim is due to your's and other poster's advice, knowledge and comments.  I felt well armed with information and support.  

Come on winter


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## Sisu (Nov 27, 2009)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Good to see it warming again. Got a new baffle too?



I did get a new baffle too!  It was actually part of the original warranty claim I made back in early September, prior to discovering the cracked welds.


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## Hogwildz (Nov 27, 2009)

Sweet.
Where is the outer crack that still exists. Make sure you document it with photos now, and save them.
I am glad I had the option I had. I want your door!! That is cool looking.
Wanna trade doors? 
Cory also okayed a new baffle for me, but I told him & dealer I want to wait till this burning season is over, I can't go without one at this point.
Your baffle seems to have more holes on thr bottom that run front to back?
New added design? Maybe to help burn the stuff towards the rear of the firebox more evenly. I haven't had many problems in that area, but on a full load, when she is gassing off, it will pop or explode in the back there.
I am guessing cause all those gasses are accumulating back there with and then igniting at once.
I personally have to give PE two Fonzie thumbs up for how they treated me and took care of my issues.
Just paid my neighbor today, shook his hand, and wished him a Happy Turkey day. His dad just died, and as I get older each year these days, I am appreciating the people and things in my life that matter.
Congrats my burning brethren, enjoy. And to all else, a happy, safe and peaceful holiday to all.


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## Sisu (Nov 27, 2009)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> Sweet.
> Where is the outer crack that still exists. Make sure you document it with photos now, and save them.
> I am glad I had the option I had. I want your door!! That is cool looking.
> Wanna trade doors?
> ...



Thanks Hog!  The door is the brushed nickel radiant model.  It was a bit pricey, but it looks pretty sharp.  

If you look at post #67, the second and third photos show the original crack.  However, it is now covered with stove paint and can hardly be seen.  I tried to take photos of it, but it doesn't show up that well.  It is welded shut from inside the firebox, but I am not sure if the crack was ground out etc. from inside.  I will keep an eye on it.  

The baffle seems to look the same as my old one, in regard to design and the number of holes.  I will have to count them to confirm.  There might be a difference in the baffle design due to the size differences in our fireboxes (your Summit and my Pacific).  

As far as getting your baffle replaced, can you not just pick up the kit from the dealer?   The dealership here just brought the new baffle kit (during the re-install) and didn't take away the old one.  I could have picked it up from them earlier, once it had arrived to their store.  You could just pick up the baffle kit (it includes new side rail insulation and baffle gasket) and install it when you are ready.

I think in the end the dealership and PE, in my case too, came through with flying colours.  It did take a bit of time and effort on my part, and there were some bumps along the way.   But in the end I am satisfied with the outcome.  I will make a synopsis in a couple of days of this warranty claim, which hopefully will be of benefit for anyone else faced with a warranty claim in the future.

With the working stove and wood heat, I now feel like the _"Ayatollah of Rock n' Rolla"_!! Let it snow!!  

I hope you had a great Thanksgiving!  Did you get your fill of turkey?


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## Hogwildz (Nov 27, 2009)

Sisu said:
			
		

> Hogwildz said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I ended up working, but was still a good day.
visited my parents, came home ate, watched football, fell asleep, woke up, watched the second football game, then wa awake till 5:30 am, then went to sleep. 
Same as every other turkey day


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## Sisu (Nov 27, 2009)

Hog, can you pick up the baffle kit from your dealer or do you have to exchange it with the warped baffle?


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## Hogwildz (Nov 27, 2009)

Sisu said:
			
		

> Hog, can you pick up the baffle kit from your dealer or do you have to exchange it with the warped baffle?


I dunno, I'll have to ask. I was under the assumption they wanted the old one in exchange. I'll have to ask the dealer.


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## Sisu (Dec 2, 2009)

It has been almost a week and I have had time to reflect on my warranty experience.  The warranty claim for cracks in the firebox of my PE Pacific wood stove insert was made on September 28, 2009.  After decisions between the dealership, distributor and manufacturer were made, the stove was removed and repaired.  The stove re-installed on November 26, 2009.  I am now wood burning again and satisfied with the outcome.

So here are some things I learned in retrospect and tips for anyone’s future warranty claims:
*
1.    Know your warranty.*  I was a bit naïve/ignorant about my warranty.  Thanks to hearth members and re-reading the warranty, I was able to make sure that my issue was covered to my satisfaction.  If the warranty is ambiguous, does not define terms, etc.; don’t be afraid to ask the manufacturer about the interpretation or clarification.  You might not always get a direct answer, but being pro-active should help your claim.
*2.    Follow-up.*  If someone states that they will do something by a certain time-frame, always follow-up with them to confirm.  A simple phone call or email will suffice.  Don’t let your claim fall through the cracks.
*3.    Talk to the manufacturer.*  I was dealing with three different parties (dealership, distributor, and manufacturer).  However, the manufacturer has the ultimate decision making power.  Dialogue with the manufacturer should assist with the claim.  They should have 1-800 numbers and email addresses, no cost to you to keep in touch.
*4.    Don’t be quick to judge your dealership from a single employee.  *The first dealership contact I dealt with wasn’t great, but the others were.
*5.    Inspect early. * Inspect your stove soon after your last burn for the season.  As BrotherBart suggested, inspect the stove in May vs. September (when I did).  My warranty claim was made during the busy season for the woodstove industry.  Chances are things would have been faster, if the warranty claim was made outside of the peak season.
*6.    Be patient.*  No matter what time of the year, the claim will take a bit of time.
*7.    Be nice. * It does not make sense to lose your cool.   You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.  You can still be firm and stand-up for yourself while being congenial and respectful.  Always remain professional.  
*8.    The members on this forum rock!!  *


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## lobsta1 (Dec 3, 2009)

Thanks for the update from both you & Hog. I'm also quite certain the PE appreciates the good words. It's like what has been said before: it's not the initial price but the service in later years that leads to repeat customers & to NEW customers.
Al


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## 1jmiii (Dec 26, 2012)

I spent most of Christmas eve 2012, reading this thread and found it most informative. I too have a 2008 Summit Insert ("Packed with care" slip dated 10/21/08, QC checklist dated 12/09/08) with cracks. Don't know if this thread just dropped dead December 3, 2009 or has been moved elsewhere. If anyone is reading this who knows where it went I would really appreciate some guidance.

Maybe just writing to self but here goes: I noticed cracks along the edges of the seam welds, top and front, of the right side panel of the firebox about a year ago while fiddling with the fan. They did not seem to hurt anything but I mentioned them at Fireplace Warehouse while I was there buying a gasket. They immediately said "Lifetime Warranty" but I did not pursue it because the cracks were minor and removal would be messy and a whole lot of work. Among other things 12' of Persolite insulated chimney liner would need to be removed after dismantling 13" of class A pipe from above the chimney. I was only here about six weeks last winter and successfully made a lot of heat without problems. This year I reglued the door gasket upon my return to the Great Basin, let it air dry for a day and then fired up a small burn to heat cure the glue per instructions. After several hours of low heat I was dead tired so I packed in a lot of wood, set the air control to about half and went to bed. Woke up in the early morning to a house full of smoke. Apparently the fire smoldered for hours before relighting. Tried to recreate the series of events and eventually thought I saw a wisp of smoke just above the door top hinge. Dismantled the trim side panels and bay top, removed the fan and found emanations from the cracks to have left smoke trails leading towards the fan. Under the right conditions combustion gasses can escape the firebox; not normal, but it does happen. I will be attempting to file a warranty claim with Fireplace Warehouse but do not expect much. I have read that the company folded a couple of years ago and is being operated under the same name/locations on a shoestring budget by new management. They certainly don't get any favorable reviews these days but the people on the floor there have always been helpful and willing, past and present, for me. I will remove the fireplace's innards and inspect the back, top, bottom and interior when the weather gives me a break. Hope I don't find anything more (as of now no externally visible cracks around the door frame top corners) because I really don't want to dismantle, remove, truck 630 miles back to Denver, and then rebuild everything. As it sits I can Vee out the known cracks, preheat the stove with a fire, and stick weld repairs. It would be hard to know where to quit Veeing old weld and rewelding because all of the right side welds look like crap with raised edges along the flat panel side that may be cracks that haven't opened up enough to pass smoke. I went to school for welding on the GI bill, got a few certifications, built a few things and had a lot of fun about forty years ago. Only did incidental welding as part of my job doing heavy vehicle repair but I can still burn in some 7018 rod and get penetration where PE did not - IF I can get to all of the places that need welding.

Now on to my questions! Why did this happen and what to do about it? Obviously inferior welds and poor design (90* corners everywhere) are the root causes but I think the stresses generated by high operating temperatures lead to failures in a poorly constructed firebox. My complaint is that operating temperatures are not fully under my control because the EBT valve opens when the box gets hot. I had noticed and not liked this on several occasions previously because the stove makes more heat than I want and rapidly burns what I had hoped to be a full nights fuel. Last night as I sat reading the thread this recurred: I had a nice fire actively burning but getting low on wood so I added about four big splits and immediately returned the air control to minimum. The new fuel lit in seconds and proceeded to burn vigorously for about two hours. I stayed up and observed the stove while reading several more pages of this thread. The intense heat output warmed the living room and kitchen of my 12x60 beercan to 89* in those two hours. I listened with new appreciation to the loud pings, pops and bangs coming from the cracked steel box. I was searching for information about modifying the EBT valve when I found this thread. I examined the works of the EBT and tested its function with a heat gun prior to installing the insert and it was functioning correctly. Several people have mentioned the undesirable aspects of the EBT's operation, i.e. adding air when the fire is already hot, and at least one has disabled it. I want to modify it to be open, adding air, on cold start, close as efficient heating temperatures are reached, then reopen on cool down to get a little more heat while reducing the pile of coals. I am reasonably sure I can do this by reversing the location of the valve L and adding a screw to the back of the L changing its center of balance causing it to tip to a normally open position. The now divorced thermostatically driven operating crank would be reconnected to the L with a short piece of light chain. When the crank rotated in response to elevated temperatures it would pull the L to a vertical/shut position thus damping the fire while I sleep. Has anyone done anything like this? Getting at the EBT underneath my Summit Insert is going to be groan and I would like to do it only once so other's knowledge would be very helpful.

Slightly different subject; had a problem with the Boost Manifold plate warping in a upward bow about 3/8" as soon as I started using the furnace. Brought it back to Denver and showed it to the folks at Fireplace Warehouse. Immediate response "overfired". I didn't think so but did not want to get into a fight so I just straightened it in a press (very easy, soft stainless steel) and reused. Warped again next decent fire I built. Considered the material, shape of the part, and installation location. After straightening a second time I shortened the manifold about 1/16" and reinstalled. No further problems. I was very interested to read a poster recount this exact problem and cure as told to him by PE. Sure wish I had read that they found the cause of cracked fireboxes and fixed it before they made mine!

If anyone has read my tale of woe this far there must still be a spark of interest and I would really appreciate any insight or further history of PE's warranty performance and possible EBT valve modifications.


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## begreen (Dec 26, 2012)

Welcome. This will get a lot more attention if you start a new thread with your specific issues. Go ahead and copy/paste what you just posted into a new thread and I will delete your post once done.


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## madison (Dec 26, 2012)

I would add to your list Sisu (a couple yrs later) :

9. Know your dealer! As he is the one who the manufacture uses as a shield for warranty issues.

And did this stove recrack if I recall correctly?


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## BrotherBart (Dec 26, 2012)

I am gonna close this one. Folks can read it for posterity but new issues need their own thread.


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