# new Vapor Fire 100 with very poor heat



## gary38532

I heated my 2800 sqft home with a old Clayton 1800 for the last 6 year here in northern PA. It always did a very good job keeping the house 75 even on the coldest January nights. The only problem was it went through about 9 cords of wood and dirty the chimney all the time.
After reading all the great reviews on the Vapor Fire I decided to buy one and replace the old Clayton. Turns out the new furnace can barley raise the room temps even 2 degrees. Going from 64 to 66 on this very morning. Ive been back and forth with them for the last month trying to make it work with no progress. Here's what we've tried...
1. Adjusted door seals so no cold air can leak into the fire chamber
2. Adjusted damper to 3 so no hot air goes up the chimney 
3. Checked fire wood with meter.  Burning maple at 20%
4. Improved chimney  pipe for a better draft.  see photos
5. Removed both heat baffles to also improve draft
6. Adjust damper to 6 to improve draft
Now they want me to insulate my outside chimney claiming that the draft is to low and causing all the problems. I'm not sure i want to spend the money to do so because I don't think this stove will ever heat my home.  Any help would be  great!


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## NoobTube

Maybe @JRHAWK9  can help? He has been pretty upfront about his modifications to his Vapor Fire and seems pretty knowledgeable.


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## NoobTube

Just checking but, have you verified your draft with a manometer:





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Dwyer MARK II 25 Inclined/Vertical Manometer, 0-3" w.c., Red Gauge Oil. Great savings and get fast delivery when you order online at GlobalTestSupply.com. In stock, fast shipping!




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Kuuma states you need to have between .03 and .06 WC for optimal operation. If you are not in that zone, the only real way to get that draft higher is to extend your chimney (I don't think insulating is going to make that much of a difference) Stated minimum chimney height is 14 feet, hard to tell from your picture but, you might be just under that?


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## gary38532

no I wanted to check it but I dont have a manometer and I don't know how to check it.


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## JRHAWK9

Without seeing some raw data and temps in various places and chimney draft it's hard to troubleshoot.  One thing to keep in mind, all newer cleaner burning EPA furnaces will NOT have the raw horsepower of the old school units.  You will not see the crazy high plenum temps you did with the Clayton.

How are your burn times?  Assuming your draft is in check, I'm guessing it's not an issue of how the furnace is burning or creating heat, it's how the heat is being delivered to the house.  How cold of air are you puling in from the basement floor?

How my furnace is heating my place now compared to the first couple years is night and day.  It was no fault of the furnace, as it's burning the wood the same as it always has, but I dramatically changed how the BTU's being produced are being delivered to my house by increasing the temp of the cold air entering the unit and dramatically slowing down and varying the speed of the blower.   I seem to be the exception though, as our house prefers higher supply temps/lower volume over higher volume of cooler air.  I essentially just increased the delivered efficiency of the furnace.



gary38532 said:


> no I wanted to check it but I dont have a manometer and I don't know how to check it.



You need to get one.  You need to know what your draft is.  This is the engine behind the furnace.

Without more hard data, it's going to be hard to do much via online.


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## NoobTube

Amazon has that Dwyer I listed above... Get it. Watch a video on Youtube how to use it and report back. My guess is that you are not drafting near enough. Although insulating your chimney might get you better draft, my guess is that extending your chimney will likely be the best bet for you for a cost-effective method...


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## gary38532

Im ordering one now


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## NoobTube

Keep this post updated. I'm definitely interested to hear back on what your measurement will be. For all intents and purposes, that Vapor Fire is a top notch machine. I'm certain that people like JRHAWK9 and others can help get it running right. Their threads on the Vapor Fire are just inspiring to read through. I wish I went the Vapor Fire route when I first was looking.


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## JRHAWK9

Do you have a SS liner in the chimney?  What size of chimney?  

The temperature of Kuuma's exhaust gasses will not be close to what the Clayton's was, so they are starting out much lower and then hitting that cold uninsulated chimney which cools them even further.  

Figure out what you have for draft, that's the first thing.


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## JRHAWK9

NoobTube said:


> Keep this post updated. I'm definitely interested to hear back on what your measurement will be. For all intents and purposes, that Vapor Fire is a top notch machine. I'm certain that people like JRHAWK9 and others can help get it running right. Their threads on the Vapor Fire are just inspiring to read through. I wish I went the Vapor Fire route when I first was looking.




@brenndatomu  as well.  He has experience in the old school stuff as well as Kuuma.


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## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> Do you have a SS liner in the chimney?  What size of chimney?
> 
> The temperature of Kuuma's exhaust gasses will not be close to what the Clayton's was, so they are starting out much lower and then hitting that cold uninsulated chimney which cools them even further.
> 
> Figure out what you have for draft, that's the first thing.


Thats what they said is the problem I'll have to do something about it


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## gary38532

gary38532 said:


> Thats what they said is the problem I'll have to do something about it


no liner 8in


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## laynes69

I would recommend a home energy audit before placing blame on a unit. The only reason I say that is I had the exact same problem you're having....just to find out my home was leaking air like crazy. The old clayton (hotblast in my case) was just a bandaid to the problem. Not only did I cut wood consumption in half...I made the house much more comfortable both winter and summer. For the few hundred it will cost....I would do it.


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## gary38532

laynes69 said:


> I would recommend a home energy audit before placing blame on a unit. The only reason I say that is I had the exact same problem you're having....just to find out my home was leaking air like crazy. The old clayton (hotblast in my case) was just a bandaid to the problem. Not only did I cut wood consumption in half...I made the house much more comfortable both winter and summer. For the few hundred it will cost....I would do it.


The main house is very well  insulated the living room not so much. Its on a crawel space and has very high ceiling  with big windows but I talked to lamppa about it all ready and they dont think its a probelm. Saying they heat homes alot worse then mine.


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## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> no liner 8in




Definitely not ideal and could very well be most of your problem.  Just don't have the exhaust gas temp to create the draft needed in that  large, uninsulated/exterior and short (?) chimney.

May need to run a 6" insulated liner in it.


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## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> Definitely not ideal and could very well be most of your problem.  Just don't have the exhaust gas temp to create the draft needed in that  large, uninsulated/exterior and short (?) chimney.
> 
> May need to run a 6" insulated liner in it.


thats what I was thinking of doing I emailed them about it im waiting to here if they think its a good solution before spending the money


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## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> no liner 8in


8" square masonry flue? That could be part of the issue...maybe. Get that Dwyer hooked up, that will tell the story on draft. Don't plan a liner just yet...but it would be money well spent even if you did it just for peace of mind...I'd be surprised if after all the creosote the Clayton put in the chimney, if it doesn't have some damage to the liner...only way to know is to camera the flue. Plus MANY chimney don't meet required clearance to combustible specs (where it goes through, or attaches to the house)
How big is the house (I missed that info maybe?) And what is the heat load like? Draft? What is the insulation like?
If you were burning 9 cords in the Clayton, that is a metric crap ton of BTUs! Like JR said, the old school burners can make a ton of heat...just kind of like running an old 70's big block V8...gonna eat you out of house and home...and stinky exhaust to boot! 
Sure looks and sounds like the VF100 should heat your house just fine...just a matter of tweaking the setup. Have patience, hang in there, we'll get you through it. 
FYI, I got my Kuuma used (for a few months) because the original owner had it installed by some hack HVAC guys, (that hacked things up several times!) and the owner finally gave up and sold it. My gain, his loss...I think it would have done the job if he had someone that could have helped him through it (I think he was getting conflicting advice from Lamppa and the HVAC dude) but it was a big ole leaky house, so who knows.


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## lampmfg

I'm glad to see this here, Gary.  I was going to recommend posting it because many can help with this that is better with remote technology than Dale and my dad.   

In all honesty, after reading your e-mail last night, I had called Dale this morning and told him to take the furnace back and refund your money.  We understand you're frustrated, and it's challenging to deal with this, especially going into this time of the year.  

However, we know that these work great and should heat your house no problem.  The other guy who was recently having issues and worked through them with us is now in love with his Vapor-Fire 100.  Customers swear by them, and we have them installed working great in our extremely frigid Northern climate.    

If you want to try and make this thing work with the help of this forum, that would be great.  If you try and can't get it working correctly, we will allow you to ship back and refund your money.  We have a long list going right now, and I'm sure someone would gladly buy it.


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## lampmfg

You should also share the pictures of how it was set-up before you reached out to us.  I want everyone to understand the changes that needed to be made.  Thanks


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## gary38532

Im going to try to get it working before pulling the plug on it thanks


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## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> 8" square masonry flue? That could be part of the issue...maybe. Get that Dwyer hooked up, that will tell the story on draft. Don't plan a liner just yet...but it would be money well spent even if you did it just for peace of mind...I'd be surprised if after all the creosote the Clayton put in the chimney, if it doesn't have some damage to the liner...only way to know is to camera the flue. Plus MANY chimney don't meet required clearance to combustible specs (where it goes through, or attaches to the house)
> How big is the house (I missed that info maybe?) And what is the heat load like? Draft? What is the insulation like?
> If you were burning 9 cords in the Clayton, that is a metric crap ton of BTUs! Like JR said, the old school burners can make a ton of heat...just kind of like running an old 70's big block V8...gonna eat you out of house and home...and stinky exhaust to boot!
> Sure looks and sounds like the VF100 should heat your house just fine...just a matter of tweaking the setup. Have patience, hang in there, we'll get you through it.
> FYI, I got my Kuuma used (for a few months) because the original owner had it installed by some hack HVAC guys, (that hacked things up several times!) and the owner finally gave up and sold it. My gain, his loss...I think it would have done the job if he had someone that could have helped him through it (I think he was getting conflicting advice from Lamppa and the HVAC dude) but it was a big ole leaky house, so who knows.


its a brand new chimney first stove thats ever been hooked to it is the vapor fire


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## gary38532

before the pipe was changed. I dont do this the guys that installed it did.


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## gary38532

gary38532 said:


> its a brand new chimney first stove thats ever been hooked to it is the vapor fire


and its a crap load of wood thats why I stoped it plus it would have burned the house down in the end with all the creosote


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## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> its a brand new chimney first stove thats ever been hooked to it is the vapor fire



So the pic you have of the chimney outside, is that of the new one?  I'm confused as to what was all new?  Was their a new 8" liner put up the masonry chimney?


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## NoobTube

JRHAWK9 said:


> So the pic you have of the chimney outside, is that of the new one?  I'm confused as to what was all new?  Was their a new 8" liner put up the masonry chimney?



That looks like its just chimney block with an 8" clay pipe flue attached... And if it's new... and he needs more draft (pending a test) It should be relatively easy to just buy another 10 or soblocks and add more clay pipe liner to extend it, no?


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## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> So the pic you have of the chimney outside, is that of the new one?  I'm confused as to what was all new?  Was their a new 8" liner put up the masonry chimney?


The picture is of the new one. Everything is new. The old one was taken down and the new one was put back up


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## gary38532

The whole chimney is brand new the old one was taken down in the summer and this one was put up. I wish I knew all this in the summer I would have had it done differently if i did. I just got off the phone with a chimney company and they are saying the middle would have to be broken out to make room for the insulated liner. Its going to be real hard to get someone out here this time of year they are all really busy.


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## Spanky

In the Owners Manual for the Vapor Fire 100 it indicates to locate the Barometric Damper that they provide
as close to the flue outlet as possible and at close to a 45 degree angle in the pipe.  Where exactly is yours located?
I own one of these furnaces and can't be more pleased with the results.  Thanks to many of the members that have
chimed in on this thread I am really impressed with the performance that I obtain.


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## brenndatomu

Curious how long a load lasts for you? Lots of coals left?
Are you filling it up all the way up? 
Running the computer on L, M, or H?
How many coals are left after say, 8 hrs? 
Just for example, I have been running 12 hour loads on 25-30 lbs of wood per load (1/3 ish load) mostly this year...did run one 40 lb. plus load on a 11* night...heating almost 3000 sq ft if you include the basement (1200 ft)...this is an average insulation 1940 brick cape cod. After 12 hours I can usually scrape around in the ashes and get enough live coals to light the next load with no match, just a lil kindlin/splitter trash on the coals...that is with burning Oak and Ash mainly.
Looks like the return air is off the basement floor...what is the temp there...vs at the ceiling?


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## laynes69

gary38532 said:


> The main house is very well  insulated the living room not so much. Its on a crawel space and has very high ceiling  with big windows but I talked to lamppa about it all ready and they dont think its a probelm. Saying they heat homes alot worse then mine.


I'll say it this way. We had a blower door test done on our home about 8 years ago on our 150 year old home. At the same time our neighbors in their 3 year old home were complaining about high energy bills. In the end our home was much tighter than the new home. While a home can be well insulated...it can be very loose with high air infiltration.  It's nice for the manufacturer to offer a buyback if necessary....but it's also easy to say hey it will work. Spending what little bit it will cost to find problem areas in the home is worth it's weight in gold. Unfortunately there's too many variables when heating a home.


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## gary38532

laynes69 said:


> I'll say it this way. We had a blower door test done on our home about 8 years ago on our 150 year old home. At the same time our neighbors in their 3 year old home were complaining about high energy bills. In the end our home was much tighter than the new home. While a home can be well insulated...it can be very loose with high air infiltration.  It's nice for the manufacturer to offer a buyback if necessary....but it's also easy to say hey it will work. Spending what little bit it will cost to find problem areas in the home is worth it's weight in gold. Unfortunately there's too many variables when heating a home.


I've wanted to get it done for awhile now and will once I get the furance running like it should be mine was built in 1990 by the way.


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## gary38532

Spanky said:


> In the Owners Manual for the Vapor Fire 100 it indicates to locate the Barometric Damper that they provide
> as close to the flue outlet as possible and at close to a 45 degree angle in the pipe.  Where exactly is yours located?
> I own one of these furnaces and can't be more pleased with the results.  Thanks to many of the members that have
> chimed in on this thread I am really impressed with the performance that I obtain.


I'm hoping to be one of those people one day too, but in its current state mines not working very well. I posted pictures of the pipe it's two 45s and a strait shot up currently.


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## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Curious how long a load lasts for you? Lots of coals left?
> Are you filling it up all the way up?
> Running the computer on L, M, or H?
> How many coals are left after say, 8 hrs?
> Just for example, I have been running 12 hour loads on 25-30 lbs of wood per load (1/3 ish load) mostly this year...did run one 40 lb. plus load on a 11* night...heating almost 3000 sq ft if you include the basement (1200 ft)...this is an average insulation 1940 brick cape cod. After 12 hours I can usually scrape around in the ashes and get enough live coals to light the next load with no match, just a lil kindlin/splitter trash on the coals...that is with burning Oak and Ash mainly.
> Looks like the return air is off the basement floor...what is the temp there...vs at the ceiling?


I'm taking air off the floor right now it's about 3 degrees warm at the ceiling. I plan on adding duct work so it take it from the ceiling. My burn times have been 17 hours with red oak with full to top but I get very little heat after it goes to coals. I think it's beacuse of the chimney. I'm going to get it fixed and update everyone once its done. How warm are you keeping the house when it's 11? I'm not interested in burn times I want the house to be like 74.


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## brenndatomu

My temp range in the house goes from 71 to 75...but try to keep it 72/73 mostly. Last winter when it got nasty cold in January I had to load 3x per day, and that was the only time the computer came off low...put it up to medium for a couple days. Most of the winter it was on low and loading twice per day. 40 to 45# per load is pretty average...25# is about my low, 70 something is a full load, on average.


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## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> The whole chimney is brand new the old one was taken down in the summer and this one was put up. I wish I knew all this in the summer I would have had it done differently if i did. I just got off the phone with a chimney company and they are saying the middle would have to be broken out to make room for the insulated liner. Its going to be real hard to get someone out here this time of year they are all really busy.


Since that is a brand new chimney I'd not have a problem putting a bare 6" liner in it...insulated is better, but just going to 6" round flue will help alot. I bet you could get a 6" liner in there with the 1/4" insulation blanket on it (1/2" is normal) the OD should be less than 7" that way...should be able to get that down a 8" flue, unless they really globbed the mortar between the tiles.


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## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> My temp range in the house goes from 71 to 75...but try to keep it 72/73 mostly. Last winter when it got nasty cold in January I had to load 3x per day, and that was the only time the computer came off low...put it up to medium for a couple days. Most of the winter it was on low and loading twice per day. 40 to 45# per load is pretty average...25# is about my low, 70 something is a full load, on average.


Crazy mines on high when it's 30 outside


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## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> Crazy mines on high when it's 30 outside


This really is sounding more and more like a low draft issue...


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## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Since that is a brand new chimney I'd not have a problem putting a bare 6" liner in it...insulated is better, but just going to 6" round flue will help alot. I bet you could get a 6" liner in there with the 1/4" insulation blanket on it (1/2" is normal) the OD should be less than 7" that way...should be able to get that down a 8" flue, unless they really globbed the mortar between the tiles.


If I going to spend the money on it I would like to make it the best it can possibly be. So I'll probably have them brake it out and put the liner down it.


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## Highbeam

brenndatomu said:


> This really is sounding more and more like a low draft issue...



especially when he’s getting 17 hours on high. 




gary38532 said:


> If I going to spend the money on it I would like to make it the best it can possibly be. So I'll probably have them brake it out and put the liner down it.



did you ever considerjust a regular class a pipe chimney? I don’t know if anybody in my region even knows how to build one out of rocks!

keep at it. You’ll figure it out soon


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## RockyMtnGriz

It would seem to me that an easy, seat of the pants, test for adequate draft is to watch the baro flap.  If it never moves off of closed, it might be weak draft.  It it's always a-flappin to kill the draft, like mine is, well, the draft ain't it.  Just me, but if my stove wasn't working, and I thought low draft was the problem, I'd give it a try without the baro.  The baro is a huge leak just being there even with the flap closed.  There's leakage around the closed flap, as well as around the tee parts.  I'm not going to say this is the long term solution, as the draft may increase as temps decline into winter, but its a quick test that could be done today.  Further off the cuff thoughts - I might try some hi-temp silicone to seal the joints in the baro tee, and some carefully applied aluminum foil over the baro flap end would make for a 10 minutes of labor test.  No stove pipe rejiggering required.


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## RockyMtnGriz

I saw a significant difference in heat delivered to my living space vs. my furnace room when I sealed up the front cover of the Kuuma.  The air that leaks out of there is the hottest air bouncing around in the furnace, and as delivered, mine leaked pretty good, so you might take a look at that as well as any air leaking from the ducting.  Not THE cure, I know, but it might help.

Fwiw, I installed my vf 100 this summer, so I'm going to reserve judgement on weather I think it's going to heat your house.  I can say, I was heating my house (barely) with a Clayton 1600 before, and I would encourage you to stick with it if you can.  The improvement in my life has been considerable already.  For the shoulder season, I've been mostly running on the lowest setting, and stretching the coals to reload during the day in approx. 20-40 degree weather.  We've had a couple of days so far where the temp ranged 10 degrees either side of zero, with wind, and I will say from those, that I have a feeling that I'm going to be running this Kuuma at some pretty high settings to do the job when real winter sets in.  I think that the ability of the Kuuma to keep producing heat at a good level hour after hour will give it the advantage over the Clayton.  It was a real trick to have the Clayton burning in the morning with the soft wood we have to burn here, and during the day, it was about a 2 hour (partial loads for a decent burn) feeding schedule.  So far the Kuuma is 8-12 hour loads (of pine) on cold fall days (0-30f).

It's too early to have any idea of wood consumption, but the Clayton was often running with a 600 degree stack, and usually smoking.  The Kuuma has a 100 or so degree stack that I can put my hand on, and doesn't smoke.  I actually saw a light tan 4" icicle hanging from the top lid of my metalbestos cap on a subzero morning last week while the stove was running.  If it's burning the wood efficiently,  with no smoke, and not putting half the heat up the chimney, it's gotta be an improvement over the Clayton this winter!

I will say that the roaring Clayton burned the chimney clean at least every few days, so creosote buildup was never a problem!


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## RockyMtnGriz

One last thing - if you do have a low draft problem, I notice the cleanout door on the outside of your chimney.  If that's not airtight, that could be a real draft killer. 
I had that problem with a flue for another stove in my house.  I solved it with some real good duct tape since it's sheltered.  Exposed, like yours is, I would use silicone.


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## gary38532

RockyMtnGriz said:


> It would seem to me that an easy, seat of the pants, test for adequate draft is to watch the baro flap.  If it never moves off of closed, it might be weak draft.  It it's always a-flappin to kill the draft, like mine is, well, the draft ain't it.  Just me, but if my stove wasn't working, and I thought low draft was the problem, I'd give it a try without the baro.  The baro is a huge leak just being there even with the flap closed.  There's leakage around the closed flap, as well as around the tee parts.  I'm not going to say this is the long term solution, as the draft may increase as temps decline into winter, but its a quick test that could be done today.  Further off the cuff thoughts - I might try some hi-temp silicone to seal the joints in the baro tee, and some carefully applied aluminum foil over the baro flap end would make for a 10 minutes of labor test.  No stove pipe rejiggering required.


it never moves unless it's really windy outside


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## brenndatomu

RockyMtnGriz said:


> It would seem to me that an easy, seat of the pants, test for adequate draft is to watch the baro flap. If it never moves off of closed, it might be weak draft. It it's always a-flappin to kill the draft, like mine is, well, the draft ain't it.


What typically happens on *"too big" masonry* chimneys is that they draft like a freight train when the furnace intake damper is open and the fire is building...then when you (or the computer in this case) starts to ratchet back the intake damper to normal secondary burn settings...the chimney cools quickly, draft drops, then the fire dies down some...draft drops more, fire dies more. This is an overly simplistic explanation of what happens (especially with the Kuuma's computer control) but that's the gist of it...


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## gary38532

RockyMtnGriz said:


> One last thing - if you do have a low draft problem, I notice the cleanout door on the outside of your chimney.  If that's not airtight, that could be a real draft killer.
> I had that problem with a flue for another stove in my house.  I solved it with some real good duct tape since it's sheltered.  Exposed, like yours is, I would use silicone.


I'll do that too


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## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> it never moves unless it's really windy outside


Well there you go then...that seals the deal...no draft. Mine is open/flapping even on a warmer day


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## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Well there you go then...that seals the deal...no draft. Mine is open/flapping even on a warmer day


I would say so myself


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## gary38532

I was thinking of buying this for it...






						6" Easy Flex Pre-Insulated Chimney Liner | WoodlandDirect.com: Chimney Liners, Champion
					






					www.woodlanddirect.com
				



'

If you look at that question answer part they say it's 7 3/8 outside diameter. Do you think that would go down my 8in chimney?


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## brenndatomu

RockyMtnGriz said:


> I'd give it a try without the baro. The baro is a huge leak just being there even with the flap closed.


An easy thing to do to take the baro out of the equation is to cover the front with aluminum foil...I told my sister to do this on her chimney...she struggles with having enough good dry wood all winter and the chimney gets a little creosoted up sometimes...so I told her to help with this issue, control the "cold air leak" (baro) by covering it up unless it was needed. She has a 15-16' chimney and the draft tends to stay under -0.06" WC unless it is really cold or windy out, so the baro can stay covered most of the time...easy to pop the foil off when needed. She has the Dwyer Mark II Model 25 manometer permanently mounted on the wall (as do many of us) and monitors draft after every re-load...I personally think that having a manometer setup like this should be mentioned in the manual @lampmfg ...since having proper draft (not low, not high) is so important!! The Dwyer mark II model 25 is not an expensive tool!


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## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> An easy thing to do to take the baro out of the equation is to cover the front with aluminum foil...I told my sister to do this on her chimney...she struggles with having enough good dry wood all winter and the chimney gets a little creosoted up sometimes...so I told her to help with this issue, control the "cold air leak" (baro) by covering it up unless it was needed. She has a 15-16' chimney and the draft tends to stay under -0.06" WC unless it is really cold or windy out, so the baro can stay covered most of the time...easy to pop the foil off when needed. She has the Dwyer Mark II Model 25 manometer permanently mounted on the wall (as do many of us) and monitors draft after every re-load...I personally think that having a manometer setup like this should be mentioned in the manual @lampmfg ...since having proper draft (not low, not high) is so important!! The Dwyer mark II model 25 is not an expensive tool!


And it should be mentioned that a outside chimney is no good unless it's insulated!


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## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> I was thinking of buying this for it...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 6" Easy Flex Pre-Insulated Chimney Liner | WoodlandDirect.com: Chimney Liners, Champion
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.woodlanddirect.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> '
> 
> If you look at that question answer part they say it's 7 3/8 outside diameter. Do you think that would go down my 8in chimney?


Yes, excellent choice! You will need a tee/snout kit for it on the bottom, and a mounting plate/cap for the top.
I used pre-insulated liner for my little Drolet insert stove in the fireplace...love it!
I would think you can work that down your 8" flue...as long as they didn't glob the mortar on in between the tile joint too heavily. If they did you may be able to drop a heavy chunk of steel down the flue on a rope and break it off.
You can test for clearance by running a length (2'?) of 7.5" OD pipe down the flue to test the clearances...use a pipe, or something a little longer like that so that it checks for offsets caused by mortar sticking out on one side, then the other side on the next joint...if that makes sense...


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> it never moves unless it's really windy outside





brenndatomu said:


> Well there you go then...that seals the deal...no draft. Mine is open/flapping even on a warmer day


 I guess before jumping to conclusions...where is the weight on your baro set? The outside edge of it should be lined up somewhere between the 4 and the 6...look close, the numbers are stamped lightly into where the weight mounts...that is just a preliminary setting, but will get you into the ballpark. If the weight is slide clear back, the setting may be higher than your draft ever gets, so it never opens...


gary38532 said:


> And it should be mentioned that a outside chimney is no good unless it's insulated!


Or at least mentioned that there is a strong possibilty that it won't work...because they do...sometimes.
But an insulated 6" round flue will always draft better, and stay cleaner than an oversize square (rectangle) masonry one will...


----------



## brenndatomu

Another liner option...they make it easy to build your whole kit...didn't see that option on the other one...I'm sure they have the parts though, probably have to call them.








						Pre-Insulated Chimney Liner Kit, Flexible Stainless Steel
					

Build Your Own Kit Rock-Flex Pre-Insulated Stainless Steel Chimney Liner & Components Kit Applications: Installed in a masonry chimney venting Wood, Pellet, Gas, Oil, and Coal burning appliances How this page works:  Click "Customize" below to start building your liner kit Select Rock-Flex...




					www.rockfordchimneysupply.com


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> I guess before jumping to conclusions...where is the weight on your baro set? The outside edge of it should be lined up somewhere between the 4 and the 6...look close, the numbers are stamped lightly into where the weight mounts...that is just a preliminary setting, but will get you into the ballpark. If the weight is slide clear back, the setting may be higher than your draft ever gets, so it never opens...
> Or at least mentioned that there is a strong possibilty that it won't work...because they do...sometimes.
> But an insulated 6" round flue will always draft better, and stay cleaner than an oversize square (rectangle) masonry one will...


It remains shut and rock still reguardless of where the weight is placed I've in all possible positions at one time or another it's on 6 currently


----------



## maple1

I didnt see it mentioned (unless I overlooked), so I will be 'that guy'. Since it is the number 1 thing to rule out in all wood heating issues.

Are you sure your wood is dry? 

It does sound and look like there are likely chimney draft issues though.


----------



## gary38532

maple1 said:


> I didnt see it mentioned (unless I overlooked), so I will be 'that guy'. Since it is the number 1 thing to rule out in all wood heating issues.
> 
> Are you sure your wood is dry?
> 
> It does sound and look like there are likely chimney draft issues though.


Yes 20% on fresh split with a meter


----------



## woodey

Are you checking the MC . of your wood on the ends or the middle of  a newly split piece?


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Another liner option...they make it easy to build your whole kit...didn't see that option on the other one...I'm sure they have the parts though, probably have to call them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pre-Insulated Chimney Liner Kit, Flexible Stainless Steel
> 
> 
> Build Your Own Kit Rock-Flex Pre-Insulated Stainless Steel Chimney Liner & Components Kit Applications: Installed in a masonry chimney venting Wood, Pellet, Gas, Oil, and Coal burning appliances How this page works:  Click "Customize" below to start building your liner kit Select Rock-Flex...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rockfordchimneysupply.com


I got a chimney company coming to look at today. I'll keep this in mind if it doesn't work out.


----------



## gary38532

woodey said:


> Are you checking the MC . of your wood on the ends or the middle of  a newly split piece?


Fresh split


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> I got a chimney company coming to look at today. I'll keep this in mind if it doesn't work out.


And they claim their's is 7.25" OD too...that extra 1/8" may make the difference!


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> And they claim there's is 7.25" OD too...that extra 1/8" may make the difference!


Yes haha


----------



## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> And it should be mentioned that a outside chimney is no good unless it's insulated!


That's not always the case though.  Some people do fine with an uninsulated outside chimney, I know Stihly Dan has one but it's also taller and I believe the proper size (6").  You have the worst combination possible.  100% outside, short, larger than 6" and completely uninsulated.


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> That's not always the case though.  Some people do fine with an uninsulated outside chimney, I know Stihly Dan has one but it's also taller and I believe the proper size (6").  You have the worst combination possible.  100% outside, short, larger than 6" and completely uninsulated.


I know it, I hope it's better when I get the liner installed. It could have been ran through the house. The previous owners did it not me. I have a fire place in my kitchen with the flue going through the middle of the house and it doesn't need any heat to draft.


----------



## KC Matt

brenndatomu said:


> Another liner option...they make it easy to build your whole kit...didn't see that option on the other one...I'm sure they have the parts though, probably have to call them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pre-Insulated Chimney Liner Kit, Flexible Stainless Steel
> 
> 
> Build Your Own Kit Rock-Flex Pre-Insulated Stainless Steel Chimney Liner & Components Kit Applications: Installed in a masonry chimney venting Wood, Pellet, Gas, Oil, and Coal burning appliances How this page works:  Click "Customize" below to start building your liner kit Select Rock-Flex...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rockfordchimneysupply.com



That's where I got the liner for my insert. It's a 6" non insulated in a tight flue and I had decided that if it didn't work well I'd add vermiculite but there's no need. They have a pull head that makes dragging an insulated liner through a tight lane pretty easy and they sell a cable like cover that saves the insulation.


I have an old Tundra 1 and it does a great job heating my old dump.  A Kuuma is 1000x better than what I have.  One thing is for sure, in this case the install is the problem.  That chimney is consuming the exhaust heat and killing the draft.  Put in a stainless 6" liner in that flue and the Kuuma will work flawlessly.  Add vermiculite for insulation if you want.  There may be other tweaks you could make but that stone chimney is what's killing your furnace.


----------



## brenndatomu

KC Matt said:


> Add vermiculite for insulation if you want.


Chimney pros will poo poo on that idea...there is no way to make sure the liner is centered so that it has X inches of insulation all the way around it...or if it does, that it wont move later on...so it wont pass code inspection then, in places that have that.
Plus I guess the stuff has a tendancy to find any little hole...and flow into it.
Also, a major mess if you ever have to do chimney work.


----------



## KC Matt

gary38532 said:


> I know it, I hope it's better when I get the liner installed. It could have been ran through the house. The previous owners did it not me. I have a fire place in my kitchen with the flue going through the middle of the house and it doesn't need any heat to draft.



Your Kuuma will work much better with the liner.  That's the best wood furnace on the market and people like me are heating with far inferior appliances.

Check out this pull head.  https://www.rockfordchimneysupply.c...rmation/chimney-liner-pulling-cone-rental.php

Get that and pull an insulated liner with the mesh over it.  Call those guys, they will take care of you.  Add 5' more than you measure your chimney.  Mine took 4' more than I measured so I cut off 1 foot of the "extra" 5 feet.


----------



## brenndatomu

KC Matt said:


> Add 5' more than you measure your chimney. Mine took 4' more than I measured so I cut off 1 foot of the "extra" 5 feet.


Sounds like you forgot to calibrate the tape before you measured...


----------



## KC Matt

brenndatomu said:


> Sounds like you forgot to calibrate the tape before you measured...




I measured the outside of the house... from the ground pushing a fatmax up.  Good thing I added 5'.....


----------



## gary38532

Unfortunately none of these options will work. The inside diameter of the chimney pipe is 6 7/8. I'm not convinced about the furnace either it's 61 in the house right now. The vapor fire was on all night long. Fixing the draft would have to give me +14  degrees and I just don't see that happening.


----------



## brenndatomu

Isn't this about where you were when you started out  with your VF100 @JRHAWK9 ?
I know I was extremely frustrated with my Tundra furnace when I put it in some years back...it came this close to leaving, unceremoniously! Kept after it though, and got it working well...until lil miss Kuuma came along and tempted me


----------



## brenndatomu

How tall is your chimney again?
I think you still have the option of pulling in a bare SS liner...that would still run warmer than the masonry does...masonry is just a big heat sink.
The other thing I was thinking is just put up a standard class A SS chimney right next to your existing. Menards sells Supervent very reasonable...I've used it for several people with great results. The whole chimney was only about $600 when my in-laws built their new house. Yours would be a bit more maybe, but I bet well under a grand still...that's with using Supervent and DIY. A stove shop or chimney sweep would charge much more I'm sure...and have to install "their premium brand" no doubt...


----------



## brenndatomu

Also, have you ever tried cracking a basement window open a bit? Wondering if your house is too tight to allow makeup air in? I doubt this is it, but easy enough to try.
Do you ever get smoke smell in the house?
That would be the classic "too tight" house symptom...


----------



## Mrpelletburner

NoobTube said:


> Amazon has that Dwyer I listed above... Get it.



I apologize if you already posted, what did you get for a measurement? Can you post a photo of where you are taking the measurement?

Are you measuring the internal flue temperature?


----------



## gary38532

Mrpelletburner said:


> I apologize if you already posted, what did you get for a measurement? Can you post a photo of where you are taking the measurement?
> 
> Are you measuring the internal flue temperature?


Its going to be here today I'll let you know when I do


----------



## Mrpelletburner

gary38532 said:


> Its going to be here today I'll let you know when I do



Awesome....

I have an un-insulated 6” SS liner... zero draft issues. Before installing the liner, I could not get the stack to draft properly.


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Also, have you ever tried cracking a basement window open a bit? Wondering if your house is too tight to allow makeup air in? I doubt this is it, but easy enough to try.
> Do you ever get smoke smell in the house?
> That would be the classic "too tight" house symptom...


yes when the stove pipe was wrong it made the stove go to c for like 3 hours. After we changed it to the strait run that it is now. Opening the window has no effect. I get smoke smell when I rake the coals forward. The stove only gets to c for a short period on Medium. Never gets to c on high


----------



## maple1

Seems to me some accurate temperature measuring at certain spots should be part of the troubleshooting too?

And looking at chimney pics, is the top of chimney below the roof peak? Maybe by a fair amount? Could be perspective.


----------



## brenndatomu

That is a pretty short chimney...height would help too, no doubt


----------



## gary38532

It was even shorter then that believe it or not when the guys rebuilt it in the summer I had them make it higher


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> Isn't this about where you were when you started out  with your VF100 @JRHAWK9 ?
> I know I was extremely frustrated with my Tundra furnace when I put it in some years back...it came this close to leaving, unceremoniously! Kept after it though, and got it working well...until lil miss Kuuma came along and tempted me



Not quite, as mine had always burned great and created heat, it was just moving the heat which I tweaked for what this house wanted by way of lots of experimentation.  Turned out I basically was putting too much of too cold of air through the air jacket too fast.  Started to pull the air off the basement ceiling and slowed my blower way down.....whallaa.  In warmer weather mine would always heat the house fine, not as easy as what it does now, but it was not an issue.  Our house is hard to heat though too, lots of volume and not very much insulation where you need it......in the ceiling, as we don't have much of a ceiling to put insulation.  LOL 

I had a brand new 35' fully insulated 6" ICC chimney ran in completely heated space inside a chase, so I have/had TONS of draft.  I had to add quite a bit of weight to my BD in order to get my draft pulled down.


----------



## laynes69

Have you covered the baro with foil and mentioned? While I think a baro is a good idea, I dont feel they are always necessary. In your case...I dont know if one is necessary. The furnace should be able to control the fire with the computer.


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> The main house is very well  insulated the living room not so much. Its on a crawel space and has very high ceiling  with big windows but I talked to lamppa about it all ready and they dont think its a probelm. Saying they heat homes alot worse then mine.


Going back to an earlier post here...do any of your heat ducts run through "unheated" space...attic, crawlspace, garage?
One thing you can try is to temporarily extend your chimney...just get a 4' (for example) section of 6" stove pipe, or duct pipe...add it to the top of your chimney...stick it down it the flue a foot or so...some pieces of tin, or any thin sheet metal screwed to the side of the pipe will allow it to sit on top of the clay flue...some Roxul, or even fiberglass insulation (no paper on it) can be stuffed in the gap to seal it...not good for permanent, but fine for a day or two...3' more onto the height should give you a boost in draft...if it works you can get an adapter that goes from the clay flue tile to class A pipe to extend the height...


----------



## gary38532

laynes69 said:


> Have you covered the baro with foil and mentioned? While I think a baro is a good idea, I dont feel they are always necessary. In your case...I dont know if one is necessary. The furnace should be able to control the fire with the computer.


yes I did it didnt help much


----------



## brenndatomu

How is the pipe installed/sealed into the chimney there? Pipe stubbed in and insulation stuffed around it to seal it? It has to be sealed.
How far is the pipe sticking in there? I remember hearing of someone who found that the pipe was stuffed so far into the crock that it was all but blocked off.


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Going back to an earlier post here...do any of your heat ducts run through "unheated" space...attic, crawlspace, garage?
> One thing you can try is to temporarily extend your chimney...just get a 4' (for example) section of 6" stove pipe, or duct pipe...add it to the top of your chimney...stick it down it the flue a foot or so...some pieces of tin, or any thin sheet metal screwed to the side of the pipe will allow it to sit on top of the clay flue...some Roxul, or even fiberglass insulation (no paper on it) can be stuffed in the gap to seal it...not good for permanent, but fine for a day or two...3' more onto the height should give you a boost in draft...if it works you can get an adapter that goes from the clay flue tile to class A pipe to extend the height...


Ill try to make this happen tomorrow. I'm going to have to fix it myself. Nobody showed up when they said would. I even called the guy that put the chimney in and he said the chimney is fine and refused to help with it. There are ducts that run in a crawl space that's not heated but they are insulated ducts.  I'm thinking of extending the chimney with a class a pipe and then adding a smooth six inch liner with no insulation since it wont fit. Hopefully that will be enough?


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> View attachment 251590
> 
> How is the pipe installed/sealed into the chimney there? Pipe stubbed in and insulation stuffed around it to seal it? It has to be sealed.
> How far is the pipe sticking in there? I remember hearing of someone who found that the pipe was stuffed so far into the crock that it was all but blocked off.


the pipe goes in like 3 inches and its not sealed


----------



## gary38532

oh and that's another thing the manometer was suppose to be here today but something happened (no idea what) and they changed the delivery date to Tuesday.


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> I'm thinking of extending the chimney with a class a pipe and then adding a smooth six inch liner with no insulation since it wont fit. Hopefully that will be enough?


I think it would be a big improvement for sure


gary38532 said:


> the pipe goes in like 3 inches and its not sealed


That's a problem! That's where all your draft is going! Seal this up first, then see what you have before lining/extending.
Stuff some paperless fiberglass insulation in there to seal it up...you will want to put some ceramic insulation blanket or Roxul in there for permanent then.
Fiberglass insulation wont burn, but it will melt at about 1300*, so not high enough for a chimney fire.


----------



## brenndatomu

If this solves your draft problem, you will need to reset your baro. 
Lining the front side of the weight up with the 4 or 5 should put you in the ballpark until the Dwyer comes...


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> I think it would be a big improvement for sure
> 
> That's a problem! That's where all your draft is going! Seal this up first, then see what you have before lining/extending.
> Stuff some paperless fiberglass insulation in there to seal it up...you will want to put some ceramic insulation blanket or Roxul in there for permanent then.
> Fiberglass insulation wont burn, but it will melt at about 1300*, so not high enough for a chimney fire.


----------



## gary38532

its only a 1/8 in gap... its going to be tuff to get it in there but ill try ones the fire is out. Im going to line it and extend it just because at this point


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> its only a 1/8 in gap...


That, and the "leak" around the baro door is a fair amount of cold air cooling the chimney when you are scratching for every bit of draft you can get. 
If I did the math right, that 1/8" is equal to a 2.5 sq inch hole in the chimney.


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> That, and the "leak" around the baro door is a fair amount of cold air cooling the chimney when you are scratching for every bit of draft you can get.
> If I did the math right, that 1/8" is equal to a 2.5 sq inch hole in the chimney.


So should I take the pipe out wrap the ceramic around the pipe and then force it back in?


----------



## brenndatomu

It looks like a tough spot to work in...from the pic I think I would try to cut strips of the insulation and try to stuff it in the gap with a putty knife, something like that...2 thumbs up if you have ceramic insulation there to use!
Could be that it ends up being easier to pull the pipe like you say though...gonna stink either way I'd say...


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Hi-temp silicone [emoji106]


----------



## laynes69

Even home depot should have stove cement in caulking tubes this time of year or a farm and garden store if you don't have insulation.


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> It looks like a tough spot to work in...from the pic I think I would try to cut strips of the insulation and try to stuff it in the gap with a putty knife, something like that...2 thumbs up if you have ceramic insulation there to use!
> Could be that it ends up being easier to pull the pipe like you say though...gonna stink either way I'd say...


ok well its going to have to come apart either way. The manufactor wants me to put a piece of stove pipe in there so the hot smoke never touches the clay


----------



## maple1

Double wall stove pipe may help some too. Although effect may not be significant.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Hi-temp silicone [emoji106]


Would be OK for temporary, but only good to something like 550*, so not a good permanent solution...plus gonna be a bugger to get apart later!


gary38532 said:


> The manufactor wants me to put a piece of stove pipe in there so the hot smoke never touches the clay


Huh? Its gonna touch the clay the whole way up, so whats another few inches? For testing purposes (read: tonight) I'd just plug the leak...or if you have some of that "high temp" aluminum duct tape, could maybe wrap some of that around there until you get your liner kit in...would look a lil redneck, but its more about results right now.
Speaking of the liner kit...might want to check before you order to make sure the tee itself will fit down the flue...been a while since I did mine, I can't remember if there was a clamp on the tee that stuck out beyond the OD of the liner itself...


----------



## brenndatomu

maple1 said:


> Double wall stove pipe may help some too. Although effect may not be significant.


I think that is doublewall, no?


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> its only a 1/8 in gap...


Looking at the pic again...where the stove pipe goes into the crock, it looks like it is an inch or more gap...does it get smaller back inside there somewhere?


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Would be OK for temporary, but only good to something like 550*, so not a good permanent solution...plus gonna be a bugger to get apart later!
> 
> Huh? Its gonna touch the clay the whole way up, so whats another few inches? For testing purposes (read: tonight) I'd just plug the leak...or if you have some of that "high temp" aluminum duct tape, could maybe wrap some of that around there until you get your liner kit in...would look a lil redneck, but its more about results right now.
> Speaking of the liner kit...might want to check before you order to make sure the tee itself will fit down the flue...been a while since I did mine, I can't remember if there was a clamp on the tee that stuck out beyond the OD of the liner itself...


he ment with the liner kit installed it wont touch no clay. I'm going to call Rockford chimney tomorrow and see what they suggest


----------



## brenndatomu

The other thing I meant to ask, and I'm sure @lampmfg  has probably already covered this...but did you open the heat exchanger cleanout door and check that the baffle(s) are not out of place? I moved one VF where the hood ended up in the throat coming out of the firebox...


----------



## KC Matt

Mrpelletburner said:


> Awesome....
> 
> I have an un-insulated 6” SS liner... zero draft issues. Before installing the liner, I could not get the stack to draft properly.




Same here.  Sure, an insulated liner might be preferable but the difference in draft and performance is probably less than some would think.  I'm no physicist but the percentage of heat retained in an uninsulated liner compared to a stone chimney unlined... it's not even worth comparing.  Masonry weighs around 4k lbs per cubic yard and theres 2 or 3 yards in that chimney.  In order to draw, you're going to have to heat 8-12k lbs of ice cold stone before air starts to draw.  Compare that to what little heat is lost on an uninsulated liner with air flowing at a high rate of speed.    It seems obvious what the problem is with this install.

This guy needs a liner.


----------



## brenndatomu

KC Matt said:


> Same here.  Sure, an insulated liner might be preferable but the difference in draft and performance is probably less than some would think.  I'm no physicist but the percentage of heat retained in an uninsulated liner compared to a stone chimney unlined... it's not even worth comparing.  Masonry weighs around 4k lbs per cubic yard and theres 2 or 3 yards in that chimney.  In order to draw, you're going to have to heat 8-12k lbs of ice cold stone before air starts to draw.  Compare that to what little heat is lost on an uninsulated liner with air flowing at a high rate of speed.    It seems obvious what the problem is with this install.
> 
> This guy needs a liner.


I agree...a SS liner solves a lot of problems here...and on many/most problem chimneys.
But the whole 8k lb. chimney doesn't get heated...just the clay liner. There is an air gap (or should be) between the liner and the main body of the block, so its really just the weight of the clay you are dealing with...the block will obviously absorb some heat from the warm (hot) liner over time, but that doesn't have to happen before you can get a good draft. It does take some pretty good BTUs going up the chimney to keep a masonry liner warm though.
I gotta say, at 6-7/8" ID, this one of the smaller masonry chimney liners I've heard of...must be because it is newer.


----------



## gary38532

I think i might rent this tool to brake it out and insulate it as much as possible. Its only a little chimney I cant see it taken that long.


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> The other thing I meant to ask, and I'm sure @lampmfg  has probably already covered this...but did you open the heat exchanger cleanout door and check that the baffle(s) are not out of place? I moved one VF where the hood ended up in the throat coming out of the firebox...


I removed them both of them


----------



## maple1

gary38532 said:


> I removed them both of them



Not sure - are you saying you removed baffles from the furnace?


----------



## brenndatomu

maple1 said:


> Not sure - are you saying you removed baffles from the furnace?


Its a completely different setup from what most/many modern stoves typically have...and Lamppa will tell you to take the baffles out with low draft chimneys...


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Its a completely different setup from what most/many modern stoves typically have...and Lamppa will tell you to take the baffles out with low draft chimneys...


Yes they told me to take them out and I did


----------



## maple1

gary38532 said:


> Yes they told me to take them out and I did



Ah, OK.


----------



## gary38532

Wanted to let everyone know, I got the Dwyer hooked up tonight. I checked before the chimney damper and after. Both spots are reading about .02 and that's with tin foil over the chimney damper so its confirmed what everyone all ready knew. I hope the chimney liner +3 more feet on top of what I got now will give me at least .10 I know I don't need that much but I don't want to just make the min either. I'm still waiting on the chimney guys. They told me they are coming Thursday now. If they don't show up again then I'm just going to do it myself. Thank you for every ones help!


----------



## laynes69

gary38532 said:


> Wanted to let everyone know, I got the Dwyer hooked up tonight. I checked before the chimney damper and after. Both spots are reading about .02 and that's with tin foil over the chimney damper so its confirmed what everyone all ready knew. I hope the chimney liner +3 more feet on top of what I got now will give me at least .10 I know I don't need that much but I don't want to just make the min either. I'm still waiting on the chimney guys. They told me they are coming Thursday now. If they don't show up again then I'm just going to do it myself. Thank you for every ones help!


Is that with the furnace running, or with the chimney hot? That's definitely a very low draft. That will cause all sorts of problems. I would also double check the clean out on the base of the chimney and make sure it's on and sealed. A liner will solve alot of problems.


----------



## gary38532

laynes69 said:


> Is that with the furnace running, or with the chimney hot? That's definitely a very low draft. That will cause all sorts of problems. I would also double check the clean out on the base of the chimney and make sure it's on and sealed. A liner will solve alot of problems.


thats with a big fire


----------



## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> Wanted to let everyone know, I got the Dwyer hooked up tonight. I checked before the chimney damper and after. Both spots are reading about .02 and that's with tin foil over the chimney damper so its confirmed what everyone all ready knew.



yeah, that's not going to cut it!  Kinda surprised you weren't getting any puff backs once in awhile.


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> yeah, that's not going to cut it!  Kinda surprised you weren't getting any puff backs once in awhile.


You do when your loading it and pulling coals forward


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> You do when your loading it and pulling coals forward


99% of the time I get no smoke coming out the door, even if the load catches before I'm done loading...sometimes I do get a bit if I open the door too fast before things are really burning well...


----------



## maple1

gary38532 said:


> Wanted to let everyone know, I got the Dwyer hooked up tonight. I checked before the chimney damper and after. Both spots are reading about .02 and that's with tin foil over the chimney damper so its confirmed what everyone all ready knew. I hope the chimney liner +3 more feet on top of what I got now will give me at least .10 I know I don't need that much but I don't want to just make the min either. I'm still waiting on the chimney guys. They told me they are coming Thursday now. If they don't show up again then I'm just going to do it myself. Thank you for every ones help!



Maybe you already know this, but you hook the manometer between the damper & the furnace, for 'proper' readings. For going forward with trying to measure how your draft changes with changes you make.


----------



## NoobTube

gary38532 said:


> Wanted to let everyone know, I got the Dwyer hooked up tonight. I checked before the chimney damper and after. Both spots are reading about .02 and that's with tin foil over the chimney damper so its confirmed what everyone all ready knew. I hope the chimney liner +3 more feet on top of what I got now will give me at least .10 I know I don't need that much but I don't want to just make the min either. I'm still waiting on the chimney guys. They told me they are coming Thursday now. If they don't show up again then I'm just going to do it myself. Thank you for every ones help!




Glad you were able to verify the draft issue. Sorry that it you had to go through this just to get there. Also... Shame on your chimney guys for designing something like that without taking draft into account. I would be willing to bet extending that chimney 5+ feet will get you the draft you need. Whether or not adding and insulated liner to that equation is required, is not for me to surmise, but I'm sure there are some good chimney guys on this board that can recommend next steps.


----------



## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> You do when your loading it and pulling coals forward



I was actually referring to the wood off-gassing and abruptly igniting leading to a mini explosion inside the firebox which pushes smoke out the cracks in the stove pipes and through the secondary intake holes. 

Although what you are describing will also happen with low draft.


----------



## brenndatomu

NoobTube said:


> Also... Shame on your chimney guys for designing something like that without taking draft into account


That chimney would work on old school fireboxes...trouble is that a lot of the masons that build chimneys are still old school too...although I'm not sure that any masonry chimney is the best choice with something as efficient as the Vaporfire...just not enough waste heat there to make it work...


----------



## maple1

Would a draft inducer be a solution?

Would be kind of a band aid, but with winter looming & all that....


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> That chimney would work on old school fireboxes...trouble is that a lot of the masons that build chimneys are still old school too...although I'm not sure that any masonry chimney is the best choice with something as efficient as the Vaporfire...just not enough waste heat there to make it work...


Very true. my old Clayton worked for years with the same chimney


----------



## gary38532

maple1 said:


> Would a draft inducer be a solution?
> 
> Would be kind of a band aid, but with winter looming & all that....


Maybe idk Im thinking it will be good once its got a liner


----------



## brenndatomu

maple1 said:


> Would a draft inducer be a solution?
> 
> Would be kind of a band aid, but with winter looming & all that....


IIRC those are kinda pricey...IMO might as well put that money toward the permanent solution...and a liner is just a Saturday afternoon job, or should be...


----------



## maple1

Ya I've never installed one, hopefully it goes that well. Was sounding like maybe a tight fit to me.


----------



## NoobTube

Curious, what would be a better solution... Full liner down the chimney or a separate new run of Class A next to it? In my house I have my insert on my main flue with a SS liner with Vermiculite... If I ever was going to add a VaporFire, I have the original Boiler chimney flu that runs paralell to the fireplace flu... But I suspect that is smaller in diameter.

Not saying I'll ever be able to do this, but its always good to know. Maybe in the next house I will do this


----------



## Highbeam

NoobTube said:


> Curious, what would be a better solution... Full liner down the chimney or a separate new run of Class A next to it? In my house I have my insert on my main flue with a SS liner with Vermiculite... If I ever was going to add a VaporFire, I have the original Boiler chimney flu that runs paralell to the fireplace flu... But I suspect that is smaller in diameter.
> 
> Not saying I'll ever be able to do this, but its always good to know. Maybe in the next house I will do this



An independent Class A pipe is always the better performer but some people like the looks of bricks. To those people, I suggest building a chase around the pipe and applying a brick veneer. Pipe is smooth walled, straight, easy to replace, easy to install, easy to clean. 

I happily demolished a masonry chimney system to replace with pipe.


----------



## NoobTube

Highbeam said:


> An independent Class A pipe is always the better performer but some people like the looks of bricks. To those people, I suggest building a chase around the pipe and applying a brick veneer. Pipe is smooth walled, straight, easy to replace, easy to install, easy to clean.
> 
> I happily demolished a masonry chimney system to replace with pipe.


Thanks.  Plus with the exterior class A, you could run an exterior clean out right? That would be awesome as you wouldnt have to do it indoors. Keep the missus happy.


----------



## Highbeam

NoobTube said:


> Thanks.  Plus with the exterior class A, you could run an exterior clean out right? That would be awesome as you wouldnt have to do it indoors. Keep the missus happy.



Ideally, the pipe is inside the house where it's warm and as much vertical as possible. If you would like to run the pipe mostly outside then yes, almost always it will have a tee located outside the home where one side goes up to the cap, one horizontal throught the wall to the stove, and the last one capped off for you to access outside with a cleaning tool. You would still need to clean the horizontal piece to the appliance.


----------



## gary38532

I just got off the phone with Rockford Chimney and he said everyone he knows has problems getting the vapor fires to draft. He said you have to pretty much have a strait shot up with a class A pipe to make it work. He said if it doesn't work with just a plain liner the insulation is not going fix it.  After hearing what he had to say about It I don't high hopes. If I knew all this in the summer it would have been a class A pipe.  Lammpa should be more upfront when it comes to this imo. It would have saved me so much trouble but if they told everyone their chimneys aren't going to work I bet their sales would go down so that prob why they don't say.


----------



## gary38532

NoobTube said:


> Thanks.  Plus with the exterior class A, you could run an exterior clean out right? That would be awesome as you wouldnt have to do it indoors. Keep the missus happy.


my clean out is outside


----------



## gary38532

Highbeam said:


> An independent Class A pipe is always the better performer but some people like the looks of bricks. To those people, I suggest building a chase around the pipe and applying a brick veneer. Pipe is smooth walled, straight, easy to replace, easy to install, easy to clean.
> 
> I happily demolished a masonry chimney system to replace with pipe.


I did demolish the masonry chimney in the summer. I didnt know it would matter. If i did I would have put a class A pipe up.


----------



## Highbeam

gary38532 said:


> I did demolish the masonry chimney in the summer. I didnt know it would matter. If i did I would have put a class A pipe up.


Now that you have a nice new masonry stack, let's see if you can make it work! Sealing up the cleanout door and metal pipe connection in the basement should have helped more.  0.02 is low. 

23- 8" blocks plus 1/2" of mud between each for another 12 inches should get you a 16 foot tall chimney plus another 2-3 feet of vertical rise in the basement. So 19' of chimney and this masonry chimney is pretty "right" sized compared to most. 

Something is still wrong. I believe that you should be having stronger draft from this chimney.


----------



## gary38532

Highbeam said:


> Now that you have a nice new masonry stack, let's see if you can make it work! Sealing up the cleanout door and metal pipe connection in the basement should have helped more.  0.02 is low.
> 
> 23- 8" blocks plus 1/2" of mud between each for another 12 inches should get you a 16 foot tall chimney plus another 2-3 feet of vertical rise in the basement. So 19' of chimney and this masonry chimney is pretty "right" sized compared to most.
> 
> Something is still wrong. I believe that you should be having stronger draft from this chimney.


The chimney is 16 feet in its current state and its not perfectly vertical in the basement but it is at a 45. I just bought the liner for it. 20 ft one so I can add 3 ft more to the chimney. Is it going to work? idk its a 600 dollar gamble


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> I just bought the liner for it. 20 ft one so I can add 3 ft more to the chimney. Is it going to work? idk its a 600 dollar gamble


I'm betting yes...it will work.


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> I'm betting yes...it will work.


I hope!


----------



## brenndatomu

How are you adding 3' on? Having the block laid up higher, or class A conversion plate/pipe on top of existing?


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> How are you adding 3' on? Having the block laid up higher, or class A conversion plate/pipe on top of existing?


more block with the liner going through it


----------



## Highbeam

You will also be able to eliminate the cleanout door and crock connection as potential draft leaks. Plus eliminate the possibility that the crock is pushed in way too far. The masonry structure will just be a convenient structural support for the liner.


----------



## woodey

Hopefully (along with  some sound advice  from  this forum) you get your draft issues solved  as you will love this furnace once properly installed. Maybe one of the  good things to come out of this thread is for people to know how important a role the chimney plays when it comes to burning solid  fuels in any stove. (Lamppa does state on their website the required draft is .03- .06" WC).


----------



## RockyMtnGriz

Highbeam said:


> I happily demolished a masonry chimney system to replace with pipe.


I have 2 masonry flues in my house currently, in addition to the Class A that the Kuuma is on.  I would have happily demolished them long ago, were not the structure holding up part of the house and the roof.  But I do have plans...  Flues made of stone and earth are a stone age solution that should have been abandoned long ago.


----------



## gary38532

woodey said:


> Hopefully (along with  some sound advice  from  this forum) you get your draft issues solved  as you will love this furnace once properly installed. Maybe one of the  good things to come out of this thread is for people to know how important a role the chimney plays when it comes to burning solid  fuels in any stove. (Lamppa does state on their website the required draft is .03- .06" WC).


Yes but what they don't state is that its hard to get that with a masonry outdoor chimney. For people like myself that never had a epa furance that may come as a shock. I'm not here for that anyway. I just want to get it working.


----------



## gary38532

RockyMtnGriz said:


> I have 2 masonry flues in my house currently, in addition to the Class A that the Kuuma is on.  I would have happily demolished them long ago, were not the structure holding up part of the house and the roof.  But I do have plans...  Flues made of stone and earth are a stone age solution that should have been abandoned long ago.


Did you try to run the kumma on the stone ones? Was the class a put up special for the kumma?


----------



## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> If I knew all this in the summer it would have been a class A pipe.  Lammpa should be more upfront when it comes to this imo. It would have saved me so much trouble but if they told everyone their chimneys aren't going to work I bet their sales would go down so that prob why they don't say.



Page 4 of the owners manual, item number 5 under installation instructions has it spelled out in bold.  The manual is available for download by anybody at any time on their website.  One of the first things I did when looking for furnaces was download the manual and read through it.   It may have saved you some time and $$ by reading this before having it installed.


----------



## woodey

RockyMtnGriz said:


> Flues made of stone and earth are a stone age solution that should have been abandoned long ago.


No  doubt there are much better options out there but it should be noted that if you do have an established masonry chimney (as I do)that meets  the required draft the Kuuma  can be vented to it and operate flawlessly . Mine vents to an inside masonry with  a 7x11 tile liner.


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> Page 4 of the owners manual, item number 5 under installation instructions has it spelled out in bold.  The manual is available for download by anybody at any time on their website.  One of the first things I did when looking for furnaces was download the manual and read through it.   It may have saved you some time and $$ by reading this before having it installed.
> 
> View attachment 251911


I did read it before I bought the furnace go to page 7 and you will see it does say you can use a masonry with tile liner


----------



## gary38532

woodey said:


> No  doubt there are much better options out there but it should be noted that if you do have an established masonry chimney (as I do)that meets  the required draft the Kuuma  can be vented to it and operate flawlessly . Mine vents to an inside masonry with  a 7x11 tile liner.


hopefully mine will be good too once it has the liner


----------



## woodey

Hard to tell from your pics, is your current chimney higher than your roof ridge and if not will your modifications put you above it?


----------



## gary38532

woodey said:


> Hard to tell from your pics, is your current chimney higher than your roof ridge and if not will your modifications put you above it?


It should be much taller with the 3 more feet yes. The peak you see in the picture is a lot more then 10 feet from the chimney. The one I'm worried about is not in the picture and is much closer


----------



## JRHAWK9

I've heard about the 2, 10, 3 foot rule when it comes to chimneys.





__





						Chimney Height: The 2 foot, 10 foot, 3 foot Rule | Ask The Chimney Sweep
					

Folks often have trouble grasping the 2 foot, 10 foot, 3-foot standard. These chimney height measurements are important to meet building requirements. Positing a…



					www.askthechimneysweep.com


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> I've heard about the 2, 10, 3 foot rule when it comes to chimneys.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chimney Height: The 2 foot, 10 foot, 3 foot Rule | Ask The Chimney Sweep
> 
> 
> Folks often have trouble grasping the 2 foot, 10 foot, 3-foot standard. These chimney height measurements are important to meet building requirements. Positing a…
> 
> 
> 
> www.askthechimneysweep.com


that is what I'm going by


----------



## maple1

Even going by that, site specific wind patterns can do real strange things sometimes when going over roofs & peaks & stuff. Could be it is pushing down on the top of you chimney some too, if the top of chimney is not above the highest point of the roof.


----------



## gary38532

maple1 said:


> Even going by that, site specific wind patterns can do real strange things sometimes when going over roofs & peaks & stuff. Could be it is pushing down on the top of you chimney some too, if the top of chimney is not above the highest point of the roof.


I bet it is that's why I'm making it higher too


----------



## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> I just got off the phone with Rockford Chimney and he said everyone he knows has problems getting the vapor fires to draft.



Also, don't let them make it out to be a bad thing.  Low stack temps are a good thing, at least for those who have the benefit of tall chimneys.


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> Also, don't let them make it out to be a bad thing.  Low stack temps are a good thing, at least for those who have the benefit of tall chimneys.


That's the whole reason I bought the vapor fire. Tired of doing all the work just to let it go up the chimney


----------



## gary38532

I wish I could stop with the questions on here beacuase im sure its geting old but I need more advice. The chimney guy finally showed up and said just running the liner down is never going to work. He said its needs a inch of insulation +3 more blocks. He said since I all ready bought the liner he will take 500 off of 2500 to do it.  All told and sold I would have 3900 into the chimney.  He also said he wants to change the inside pipe from the stove out too. Puting double wall in to keep the heat in. I know that's good advice beacause the guys from Lamppa also said to do that. All in all I would have 3900 into the chimney plus whatever the double wall stove pipe is going to cost which I know is not cheap.  Maybe I would be better off at this point just puting a new chimney up?  Again thanks so much for all the help


----------



## Mrpelletburner

$2500!! 

Where is that eyes wide open emoji???


----------



## gary38532

Mrpelletburner said:


> $2500!!
> 
> Where is that eyes wide open emoji???





Mrpelletburner said:


> $2500!!
> 
> Where is that eyes wide open emoji???


tell me about it! The chimneys going to end up being just as much as the furnace was


----------



## JRHAWK9

I just looked.  I paid $3,700 to have an ICC/Excel system installed from scratch inside the house by NFI certified people.....about 30'+ of it.  Here's some photos of after they installed it and before the chase was built.  Starting from the top and going down.


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> I wish I could stop with the questions on here beacuase im sure its geting old but I need more advice. The chimney guy finally showed up and said just running the liner down is never going to work. He said its needs a inch of insulation +3 more blocks. He said since I all ready bought the liner he will take 500 off of 2500 to do it.  All told and sold I would have 3900 into the chimney.  He also said he wants to change the inside pipe from the stove out too. Puting double wall in to keep the heat in. I know that's good advice beacause the guys from Lamppa also said to do that. All in all I would have 3900 into the chimney plus whatever the double wall stove pipe is going to cost which I know is not cheap.  Maybe I would be better off at this point just puting a new chimney up?  Again thanks so much for all the help


If he lays up the extra block, can you DIY the liner? It really isn't that hard.
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, putting up a new Supervent class A chimney should run under a grand for the parts.
Edit: I just went to Menards site and priced it all out...the whole chimney system, all the parts, and doublewall stove pipe/elbows/tee too...should be all the major parts needed, unless I missed a minor piece...total was (pretax) $991.81...minus 11% rebate (in store credit) if you bought it by midnight tomorrow. This is for about a 19' chimney (18' of pipe plus the tee)


----------



## Gbawol42

brenndatomu said:


> If he lays up the extra block, can you DIY the liner? It really isn't that hard.
> As I mentioned earlier in the thread, putting up a new Supervent class A chimney should run under a grand for the parts.
> Edit: I just went to Menards site and priced it all out...the whole chimney system, all the parts, and doublewall stove pipe/elbows/tee too...should be all the major parts needed, unless I missed a minor piece...total was (pretax) $991.81...minus 11% rebate (in store credit) if you bought it by midnight tomorrow.



Mine was around $1200 from menards so this should be accurate.  I ran 36 feet class A from my basement wall and up, plus all the wall brackets, pipe connectors etc.

Also bought mine during the 11% rebate and ended up with a nice in store rebate check to soften the blow.


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> If he lays up the extra block, can you DIY the liner? It really isn't that hard.
> As I mentioned earlier in the thread, putting up a new Supervent class A chimney should run under a grand for the parts.
> Edit: I just went to Menards site and priced it all out...the whole chimney system, all the parts, and doublewall stove pipe/elbows/tee too...should be all the major parts needed, unless I missed a minor piece...total was (pretax) $991.81...minus 11% rebate (in store credit) if you bought it by midnight tomorrow. This is for about a 19' chimney (18' of pipe plus the tee)


I can do the liner myself but I can't brake out the Terracotta


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> I can do the liner myself but I can't brake out the Terracotta


I forgot that you were planning on using the insulation...


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> I forgot that you were planning on using the insulation...


I wasn't going to but the chimney guy said it was essential to have it


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> I wasn't going to but the chimney guy said it was essential to have it


I personally think he is wrong (of course I am always suspicious of salespeople)...I think with adding 3' height and the SS liner, that would do the trick...but insulation is always better. Thing ought to suck like a Hoover when you are done!


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> I personally think he is wrong (of course I am always suspicious of salespeople)...I think with adding 3' height and the SS liner, that would do the trick...but insulation is always better. Thing ought to suck like a Hoover when you are done!


Ok well I'm going to stick to the plan then. The Rockford liner with no insulation is going to be here Monday. My neighbor is going to help me install it sometime after the holiday.


----------



## brenndatomu

The good thing is that if you install without insulation and you are not happy with it, it can be pulled out and insulated, then re-installed after the clay is broken out...assuming that the liner is not messed up on initial install...which it shouldn't be, unless it gets stuck and then you force it on through...something like that.


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> The good thing is that if you install without insulation and you are not happy with it, it can be pulled out and insulated, then re-installed after the clay is broken out...assuming that the liner is not messed up on initial install...which it shouldn't be, unless it gets stuck and then you force it on through...something like that.


If it doesn't work im just going to cut my losses and start over with a triple wall pipe. Thats what it should have been to begin with. haha what are you going to do?


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> If it doesn't work im just going to cut my losses and start over with a triple wall pipe. Thats what it should have been to begin with. haha what are you going to do?


You mean doublewall, right? Even though triple wall is approved for wood burning, doublewall is the preffered pipe, and a bit cheaper too.
Doublewall runs warmer (internally) and stays cleaner due to the insulation...so it will draft better too.  The triplewall may have a tighter CTC spec (I dunno) but it is also 2" bigger OD...so the 2" CTC spec of doublewall ends up fitting in the same spot (not that this CTC stuff matters much for your setup)


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> You mean doublewall, right? Even though triple wall is approved for wood burning, doublewall is the preffered pipe, and a bit cheaper too.
> Doublewall runs warmer (internally) and stays cleaner due to the insulation...so it will draft better too.  The triplewall may have a tighter CTC spec (I dunno) but it is also 2" bigger OD...so the 2" CTC spec of doublewall ends up fitting in the same spot (not that this CTC stuff matters much for your setup)


ok good to know Ill go with double if i have to go down that road


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> I just looked.  I paid $3,700 to have an ICC/Excel system installed from scratch inside the house by NFI certified people.....about 30'+ of it.  Here's some photos of after they installed it and before the chase was built.  Starting from the top and going down.
> 
> 
> View attachment 252003
> 
> 
> View attachment 252000
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 251997
> 
> 
> View attachment 251998
> 
> 
> View attachment 251999
> 
> 
> View attachment 252001
> 
> 
> View attachment 252002


wow that must work well huh


----------



## gary38532

gary38532 said:


> wow that must work well huh


I bet I could do that in my house too. Maybe ill pacth it up with the liner for this winter and next year ill put something like this in. If i did it this way I go strait up right off the furnace


----------



## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> I bet I could do that in my house too. Maybe ill pacth it up with the liner for this winter and next year ill put something like this in. If i did it this way I go strait up right off the furnace




yeah, it works good.  Being in heated space and insulated pretty much the whole run allowed me to supply an outside make up air duct to my BD to send cold outside air up the chimney instead of heated basement air in order to regulate the draft.  Been using it this way for about 1.5 heating seasons now.

If your new liner works, I'm not sure spending even more money on a completely separate and new chimney would be worth it.  Obviously your call though.  It would be better, but at what point does the law of diminishing returns come into play in regards to $$$$$ spent.


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> Ok well I'm going to stick to the plan then. The Rockford liner with no insulation is going to be here Monday. My neighbor is going to help me install it sometime after the holiday.


So install on Friday? If you get all sooty doing it...kinda gives new meaning to "Black Friday", eh?!


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> So install on Friday? If you get all sooty doing it...kinda gives new meaning to "Black Friday", eh?!


haha we might do it sooner depends on the weather


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> yeah, it works good.  Being in heated space and insulated pretty much the whole run allowed me to supply an outside make up air duct to my BD to send cold outside air up the chimney instead of heated basement air in order to regulate the draft.  Been using it this way for about 1.5 heating seasons now.
> 
> If your new liner works, I'm not sure spending even more money on a completely separate and new chimney would be worth it.  Obviously your call though.  It would be better, but at what point does the law of diminishing returns come into play in regards to $$$$$ spent.


either way that chimney is bad ass


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> either way that chimney is bad ass


I think that on a cold windy night it would suck up small animals that ventured too close to the VF intake!


----------



## Gbawol42

JRHAWK9 said:


> Being in heated space and insulated pretty much the whole run allowed me to supply an outside make up air duct to my BD to send cold outside air up the chimney instead of heated basement air in order to regulate the draft.



You know I never thought about the BD sucking the nice heated air from the basement.  I know your a numbers man, how much does you flue drop in temp doing it the way you are?


----------



## JRHAWK9

Gbawol42 said:


> You know I never thought about the BD sucking the nice heated air from the basement.  I know your a numbers man, how much does you flue drop in temp doing it the way you are?



The unscientific answer is not enough to cause an issue for me.  I don't keep track of the temp after the BD, only the temp coming right off the furnace collar and the temp of the air entering the BD from outside.  When we had that one -37° morning last January I saw below 0° air entering the BD tee.  I actually had some frost buildup on the exterior of the metal duct not too far before the BD tee.


----------



## brenndatomu

I personally don't think using outside air for the BD would work on anything that burns dirtier than a Kuuma...creosote city!


----------



## gary38532

The chimney guys are braking the clay out now. Going with a inch of insulation plus double wall stove pipe in the house. Ill post new pictures when it's finished!


----------



## Case1030

gary38532 said:


> The chimney guys are braking the clay out now. Going with a inch of insulation plus double wall stove pipe in the house. Ill post new pictures when it's finished!





gary38532 said:


> All in all I would have 3900 into the chimney plus whatever the double wall stove pipe is going to cost which I know is not cheap.



Hopefully all said and done you didn't end up dishing out $3900!!


----------



## gary38532

The draft is about .05 now. The damper moves around now too. It still doesn't heat very well though 67 inside on med 32 outside. Maybe I should add the baffles back in the heat exchanger and readjust the draft? Seems like it wants to bouce back in forth from c and 1 Is that normal?


----------



## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> The draft is about .05 now. The damper moves around now too. It still doesn't heat very well though 67 inside on med 32 outside. Maybe I should add the baffles back in the heat exchanger and readjust the draft.



You need to make sure the BD is level, both horizontally and vertically.  May have to put an extension on the tee with an adjustable elbow to accomplish this.  Or cut a piece of stovepipe at an angle.

Once you get the draft where it should be, then you should probably pick up a few cheap HVAC temp probes and put them in your supply plenum and return air plenum.


----------



## maple1

gary38532 said:


> The draft is about .05 now. The damper moves around now too. It still doesn't heat very well though 67 inside on med 32 outside. Maybe I should add the baffles back in the heat exchanger and readjust the draft? Seems like it wants to bouce back in forth from c and 1 Is that normal?



I think I would be putting the baffles in then getting draft in spec if you can, yes. Manual says they are there for hx efficiency but can be taken out to try to alleviate poor draft side effects. I would also try to get draft to upper end of specs (0.06) if possible, to start with. Make sure you have the gauge hooked up right, doesn't look like its hooked up in that pic above?


----------



## gary38532

maple1 said:


> I think I would be putting the baffles in then getting draft in spec if you can, yes. Manual says they are there for hx efficiency but can be taken out to try to alleviate poor draft side effects. I would also try to get draft to upper end of specs (0.06) if possible, to start with. Make sure you have the gauge hooked up right, doesn't look like its hooked up in that pic above?


it was hooked up. I took it off because I didnt want the rubber hose to melt. I measured it just below the BD.


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> You need to make sure the BD is level, both horizontally and vertically.  May have to put an extension on the tee with an adjustable elbow to accomplish this.  Or cut a piece of stovepipe at an angle.
> 
> Once you get the draft where it should be, then you should probably pick up a few cheap HVAC temp probes and put them in your supply plenum and return air plenum.


I'll level it not today though. I just need a break from this stove.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Buy some copper tubing and make a connection to the rubber hose ~ 1’ away.


----------



## gary38532

Mrpelletburner said:


> Buy some copper tubing and make a connection to the rubber hose ~ 1’ away.
> 
> View attachment 252439
> 
> 
> View attachment 252441


ok


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> I'll level it not today though. I just need a break from this stove.


It does need to be plumb and level...but if you have -0.05" WC, then good enough for today.
Putting the baffles back in now that you have proper draft will help with heat exchange efficiency for sure.
I run my Dwyer off the right port...scale is much larger, and easier to read that way...make sure to pop the hose off and check zero once in a while too.
Congrats on getting to square one finally...not saying there arent a few minor tweaks to be done yet...should be nothing major, I think the painful stuff is done...it gets nothing but better from here!


----------



## woodey

gary38532 said:


> Seems like it wants to bouce back in forth from c and 1 Is that normal?


Yes that is what you want to see, as you get further into the burn cycle it will go from 2-1,  2-1-C, 3-2 ect. If it is going from 1 to closed then the thermo couple is reading a high enough internal temp in the firebox that you should feel more heat in your house. Are all hot air ducts unobstructed, are your air filters allowing  enough air flow thru them. May be  worth trying to remove the lid to the filters or remove 1 filter to introduce more air into the system. Have you removed the hood on the front of the furnace with the blower running  as you should feel a lot of air blowing out there.


----------



## brenndatomu

woodey said:


> Yes that is what you want to see, as you get further into the burn cycle it will go from 2-1,  2-1-C, 3-2 ect. If it is going from 1 to closed then the thermo couple is reading a high enough internal temp in the firebox that you should feel more heat in your house. Are all hot air ducts unobstructed, are your air filters allowing  enough air flow thru them. May be  worth trying to remove the lid to the filters or remove 1 filter to introduce more air into the system. Have you removed the hood on the front of the furnace with the blower running  as you should feel feel a lot of air blowing out there.


I've never seen it go to 3 after being on c?
For me a cold start goes C, 3, 2, 3, 2, 1, 2, 1, c, 1, c, 1...and the real warm plenum temps come from the latter part of that sequence. @JRHAWK9  says that he gets higher plenum temps later on in the burn when it starts to go back to 3 long term for the "coals burn down" part of the process.
Loading on a nice pile of hot coals results in something more like 3, 2, 1, c,1, c,1, c, 1....and usually stays on c for longer periods each time too...especially once it gets cold and I run larger loads of wood.
Easy enough to try removing a filter...but I think that will result in driving the duct temps down...which in my house, doesn't bring the house temp up. 
I do better with less, but hotter air...but it seems every house is a little different.


----------



## woodey

brenndatomu said:


> I've never seen it go to 3 after being on c?


I could have been a little clearer on that as later in the cycle it may go from 3-2 then back to 3 till reload,as far as filter removal it may be worth trying once to see if changes anything and go  from there.


----------



## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> Seems like it wants to bouce back in forth from c and 1 Is that normal?



yeah, it's normal for the computer to want to keep internal firebox temps at whatever output setting you have the computer set ar. 

Lots of examples of mine doing the same thing -HERE- .  When you see the stack temps rise and then fall repeatedly, that is the computer doing the c-1 thing to maintain the 1,080°F firebox temps when it's set to minimum burn.



brenndatomu said:


> @JRHAWK9  says that he gets higher plenum temps later on in the burn when it starts to go back to 3 long term for the "coals burn down" part of the process.



yeah, there's an example of that too at the link above.  They are the highest when the damper stays open more in the 1-2 area....about 2/3 through the burn.  This is with the computer on minimum burn too.  

I too do better with lower volumes of warmer air.  I'm starting to wonder if the OP's house will also benefit from the same.....?

Still would like to see some plenum/supply temps.  Unless that house has an extremely high heat load, I think there is still more to figure out.  At 32° doing back to back loadings like he's doing, he should be seeing higher inside temps....IMO.


----------



## gary38532

Im not sure whats going on with it at this point. Mine spends most of the burn on 1.  I put the baffles back in and I have a draft of .05 with them in. Towards the end of my burn I get almost no heat because its full of coals and its not hot enough to keep the blower fan on. So Ive been putting  little pieces of 2X4s in to try to burn them down but it doesnt do much.  Im going through a 3 hour period of just waiting for the coals to go away. The blower is coming on and off during that 3 hours. Its spends most of its time off. Its seems like its running the same way with the draft as it was with out it. I put a thermometer in the register and my hottest air was 100. I dont have returns so Im not sure how to measure whats going in. I have all the the doors in the house  open to make sure cold air is getting back. I haven't seen mine go to c at all tonight and its full to the top with cherry. Also when mine gets to 3 it stays on 3 never back to 2.


----------



## brenndatomu

So how long are your loads lasting, from loading to loading?


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> So how long are your loads lasting, from loading to loading?


today I got 10 hours. The blower was off for about 2 during that. I loaded on lots of coals more then I wanted to but the back of the stove was empty


----------



## gary38532

I just went down stairs and its on c now first time I seen it and I loaded at 8 its 11 now


----------



## brenndatomu

Cherry is not the highest BTU wood...but a box full of it ought to heat your house this time of year.
The last time I had the firebox stuffed full was last January when the high temp for the day was around zero...an the computer on medium, loaded every 8 hours or so IIRC...a couple times the high temp alarm went off because I loaded on too many coals, and had a full firebox of real dry wood...went 3, 2, 1, c real quick, and stayed on c for a LONG time...2 hrs maybe? CRS n all....


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Cherry is not the highest BTU wood...but a box full of it ought to heat your house this time of year.
> The last time I had the firebox stuffed full was last January when the high temp for the day was around zero...an the computer on medium, loaded every 8 hours or so IIRC...a couple times the high temp alarm went off because I loaded on too many coals, and had a full firebox of real dry wood...went 3, 2, 1, c real quick, and stayed on c for a LONG time...2 hrs maybe? CRS n all....


Ive never had any of that happen. Ive try all wood types same results even wood with 10% water. Just in the time in took me to type this its back to 1


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> I just went down stairs and its on c now first time I seen it and I loaded at 8 its 11 now


Sounds pretty good.


gary38532 said:


> today I got 10 hours. The blower was off for about 2 during that. I loaded on lots of coals more then I wanted to but the back of the stove was empty


The back of the stove was empty? You mean after you pulled coals forward?
Just make sure you keep the coals away from the front plate like they tell you to...I  have been into a few different Kuumas now and I can vouch for damage to that area just as the decal (and manual) say if this is ignored...


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Sounds pretty good.
> The back of the stove was empty? You mean after you pulled coals forward?
> Just make sure you keep the coals away from the front plate like they tell you to...I  have been into a few different Kuumas now and I can vouch for damage to that area just as the decal (and manual say)


yes I pull them forward and then push them off the front thats what Dale told me to do


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> Just in the time in took me to type this its back to 1


Not unusual...


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Not unusual...


ok


----------



## JRHAWK9

Do you have the thermostat hooked up to it and is it calling for heat (which puts the blower on high)?  Make sure the blower is running on low.

I just use an indoor/outdoor weather "station" and put the outdoor sensor in the blower box.  Make sure it's tied down to the metal good though, as you don't want it getting sucked into the blower. LOL

100° plenum temps really won't cut it.  Sounds like you may have a similar situation I was in my first winter.  I too was seeing low plenum temps similar to yours......and lower than everybody else with a Kuuma at the time....barely over 100° at the highest.  First thing I did was I restricted my duct some to increase my static pressure (as I had VERY low duct pressure originally) and that helped some.  You could always try putting in a couple higher MERV rating filters to reduce the volume of air being sent through the air jacket and see if that raises the plenum temp and if it does, see if it heats the house better.  Bottom line is, for our house, the factory blower setup was not optimal..........I slowed my blower WAY down to increase supply temps and it heats our place sooo much easier now.


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> Do you have the thermostat hooked up to it and is it calling for heat (which puts the blower on high)?  Make sure the blower is running on low.
> 
> I just use an indoor/outdoor weather "station" and put the outdoor sensor in the blower box.  Make sure it's tied down to the metal good though, as you don't want it getting sucked into the blower. LOL
> 
> 100° plenum temps really won't cut it.  Sounds like you may have a similar situation I was in my first winter.  I too was seeing low plenum temps similar to yours......and lower than everybody else with a Kuuma at the time....barely over 100° at the highest.  First thing I did was I restricted my duct some to increase my static pressure (as I had VERY low duct pressure originally) and that helped some.  You could always try putting in a couple higher MERV rating filters to reduce the volume of air being sent through the air jacket and see if that raises the plenum temp and if it does, see if it heats the house better.  Bottom line is, for our house, the factory blower setup was not optimal..........I slowed my blower WAY down to increase supply temps and it heats our place sooo much easier now.


Its always on high. Ill put it on low now


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> Just in the time in took me to type this its back to 1





brenndatomu said:


> Not unusual...





gary38532 said:


> ok


Its doing what its designed to do...modulating to keep the fire in its optimized state...burning clean, and hot!


----------



## gary38532

gary38532 said:


> Its always on high. Ill put it on low now


I used a meat thermometer. I know thats not good its what I had. Ill get something better


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> 100° plenum temps really won't cut it.


I started to type the same thing...then I went back and re-read...he said register temps...100* register temps is all I get...works fine. But I caught my misread in time....


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> I started to type the same thing...then I went back and re-read...he said register temps...100* register temps is all I get...works fine. But I caught my misread in time....


sorry yes that was the closet one from the stove maybe like 3 feet away


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> sorry yes that was a the closet one from the stove maybe like 3 feet away


Oh...well that is almost the same as plenum temp then if its that close...


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Oh...well that is almost the same as plenum temp then if its that close...


its very close prob less then 3


----------



## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> Its always on high. Ill put it on low now



Most don't use the thermostat, just run the blower on low.  I haven't heard of one person yet say they achieved better results with running the blower on high.


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> You could always try putting in a couple higher MERV rating filters to reduce the volume of air being sent through the air jacket and see if that raises the plenum temp and if it does, see if it heats the house better.


Stole my thunder here...excellent advice...even just going to cheap pleated filters might be enough to whoa things up enough...but just letting it go to low will help a lot...I don't even have my tstat hooked up.
I too get great results with  "low n slow" on the blower/air speeds


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> Most don't use the thermostat, just run the blower on low.  I haven't heard of one person yet say they achieved better results with running the blower on high.


The wood boiler guys have the same issues with setting up their water circulation speeds...too fast doesn't work, too slow doesn't work...although _we_ can get away with some pretty slow air speeds...


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Stole my thunder here...excellent advice...even just going to cheap pleated filters might be enough to whoa things up enough...but just letting it go to low will help a lot...I don't even have my tstat hooked up.
> I too get great results with  "low n slow" on the blower/air speeds


thats amazing that works I would think faster warm air would heat better. Ill try it though I dont have much to lose at this point. Im starting to wonder if the house is leaking to bad and my old stove was just hiding it but it was 40 outside today and it couldnt get passed 68


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> it was 40 outside today and it couldnt get passed 68


That's just nuts!!
I loaded 31# of wood at 8am and the house went from 71* to 75* and I still haven't reloaded...was still 72* in here the last I looked...I think we had about the same weather today.
Where are you in PA again?


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> That's just nuts!!
> I loaded 31# of wood at 8am and the house went from 71* to 75* and I still haven't reloaded...was still 72* in here the last I looked...I think we had about the same weather today.
> Where are you in PA again?


I know it! Almost NY state but still PA on the most north right corner of PA


----------



## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> thats amazing that works I would think faster warm air would heat better. Ill try it though I dont have much to lose at this point. Im starting to wonder if the house is leaking to bad and my old stove was just hiding it but it was 40 outside today and it couldnt get passed 68



It's not faster warm air though, it's faster/higher volume cooler air.  When you slow it down it becomes less volume of warmer air.  My theory is when you slow things down it slows the speed moving through the air jacket allowing better transfer of heat.  No idea if that's true or if I'm just making $hit up though.    

That -is- crazy.  It was cloudy and low/mid 30's here today and I didn't light a fire till about a couple hours ago when the house dropped to 68°!  I let last nights 40lb fire die out, the blower shut off at 8:15am this morning.....  Although my other half loaded a bit too much wood while I was gone on Friday so the house reached 78° at some point during the night, so the house temp was coasting down all day today.


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> My theory is when you slow things down it slows the speed moving through the air jacket allowing better transfer of heat. No idea if that's true or if I'm just making $hit up though.


You got the data logger now...try a few loads with blower on high...see what is shows when compared...


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> It's not faster warm air though, it's faster/higher volume cooler air.  When you slow it down it becomes less volume of warmer air.  My theory is when you slow things down it slows the speed moving through the air jacket allowing better transfer of heat.  No idea if that's true or if I'm just making $hit up though.
> 
> That -is- crazy.  It was cloudy and low/mid 30's here today and I didn't light a fire till about a couple hours ago when the house dropped to 68°!  I let last nights 40lb fire die out, the blower shut off at 8:15am this morning.....  Although my other half loaded a bit too much wood while I was gone on Friday so the house reached 78° at some point during the night, so the house temp was coasting down all day today.


My house has not been over 68 in like 2 months.  Ill leave it on low though see what happens


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> You got the data logger now...try a few loads with blower on high...see what is shows when compared...



All that will tell me is what I already know.....I will have consistently lower supply temps throughout the burn and less blower run time at the end of the burn.  The way I see it, if those real slow blower temps heated this place when it was -37° one night and with 4 or 5 days straight of 70 + HDD's (two with back to back 80+) it must be doing something right and I'm OK with that.  Especially compared to what I was seeing the first winter.  I don't necessarily need to know the "why".


----------



## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> My house has not been over 68 in like 2 months.  Ill leave it on low though see what happens


I'm wondering if you really do have a very high heat load house.  Like some have mentioned before, a home energy audit may be of some benefit to you.  A blower door test may find some glaring issues which may be simple to fix.


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> All that will tell me is what I already know.....I will have consistently lower supply temps throughout the burn and less blower run time at the end of the burn.  The way I see it, if those real slow blower temps heated this place when it was -37° one night and with 4 or 5 days straight of 70 + HDD's (two with back to back 80+) it must be doing something right and I'm OK with that.  Especially compared to what I was seeing the first winter.  I don't necessarily need to know the "why".


mine would never work in -37 thats another reason why I bought the stove it never gets that cold here. I figured if they work in that im a sure deal but thats not what happen. Do you help it with other heat sources? or is that just the Kumma?


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> I'm wondering if you really do have a very high heat load house.  Like some have mentioned before, a home energy audit may be of some benefit to you.  A blower door test may find some glaring issues which may be simple to fix.


I bet that's where im going to end up. I don't think they will be easy fixes plus its hard to get anyone to come out here and do anything. I live in the deep woods. Lots of people hear where Im at and just say no.


----------



## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> mine would never work in -37 thats another reason why I bought the stove it never gets that cold here. I figured if they work in that im a sure deal but thats not what happen. Do you help it with other heat sources? or is that just the Kumma?



It normally doesn't get that cold here either!  -20° is about as cold as we normally see, and even that is not too often.  That one stretch of weather was a crazy polar vortex.    

I have LP as a backup.  It did kick on the very last morning of that cold snap and run for an hour or so.  Before that it was all Kuuma.  LP thermostat is set to 68°. 







Here's my record of those days.  6 of the 7 days were 70+ HDD's.  LP ran a total of  111 minutes over that span.  I remember that 25 minute LP run day as I was pee'd off because there must have been a wet split or two which totally screwed up the loading that night.  I remember my plenum temps were lower than they should have been and the computer was spending time on '1' and '2' when it should have been on pilot.


----------



## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> I bet that's where im going to end up. I don't think they will be easy fixes plus its hard to get anyone to come out here and do anything. I live in the deep woods. Lots of people hear where Im at and just say no.



Wait to see if slowing the blower down does something.  If it does, try slowing it down more.

Are you -SURE- you are burning well seasoned wood?


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> Wait to see if slowing the blower down does something.  If it does, try slowing it down more.
> 
> Are you -SURE- you are burning well seasoned wood?


will do


----------



## gary38532

gary38532 said:


> will do


the wood Im burning now has been in my basement for two years. Next to the old clayton that whole time. Im not sure how to get it any better


----------



## brenndatomu

brenndatomu said:


> I loaded 31# of wood at 8am and the house went from 71* to 75* and I still haven't reloaded...was still 72* in here the last I looked...I think we had about the same weather today.


OK, I lied...I just went down to do the overnight load...this mornings load was 32.9#   
It finally dropped to 71* in here (still 40 out) so I loaded ~25# for the overnight. (for those reading along, that's a pretty small load) There were a few hot coals yet...it would have went on its own, but I try to limit any unnecessary smoke going up the chimney, so I'll just drop a match on those smoldering splits (literally) and they usually light right up...its off to the races after that. 
I have better luck dropping an unlit match on coals than a lit match...they often go out when you light up them first, so all you did was to add one tiny half charred split to the pile...but if you drop it in unlit, when the hot coals light it, it flares up big at first and everything else that was already smoking takes right off...try it somtime!


----------



## gary38532

this is what Ive been burning. I have lots more in my pole barn thats what Im burning tonight. I'm hoping this will give me less coals. Thats why I swicthed to the cherry in my pole barn.


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> OK, I lied...I just went down to do the overnight load...this mornings load was 32.9#
> It finally dropped to 71* in here (still 40 out) so I loaded ~25# for the overnight. (for those reading along, that's a pretty small load) There were a few hot coals yet...it would have went on its own, but I try to limit any unnecessary smoke going up the chimney, so I'll just drop a match on those smoldering splits (literally) and they usually light right up...its off to the races after that.
> I have better luck dropping an unlit match on coals than a lit match...they often go out when you light up them first, so all you did was to add one tiny half charred split to the pile...but if you drop it in unlit, when the hot coals light it, it flares up big at first and everything else that was already smoking takes right off...try it somtime!


I have zero problems with it going out. There just no heat so who cares.


----------



## laynes69

Sounds to me like the ol clayton was a bandaid. I've woke up with temps in the low 20's out.....the fire ashed over with a few coals, the blower not running with a 74 degree home. Prior to all improvements over the years, I couldn't get the house above 68 with our furnace running full bore in those temps. Now, I can take the house to 80 or higher if I wanted to. While insulation made some difference, airsealing made the biggest difference. Seek makes an infrared camera that works with a smart phone. I bought one and they are worth their weight in gold. Any renovations I do, I can confirm everything is sealed and insulated before closing up the walls.


----------



## gary38532

laynes69 said:


> Sounds to me like the ol clayton was a bandaid. I've woke up with temps in the low 20's out.....the fire ashed over with a few coals, the blower not running with a 74 degree home. Prior to all improvements over the years, I couldn't get the house above 68 with our furnace running full bore in those temps. Now, I can take the house to 80 or higher if I wanted to. While insulation made some difference, airsealing made the biggest difference. Seek makes an infrared camera that works with a smart phone. I bought one and they are worth their weight in gold. Any renovations I do, I can confirm everything is sealed and insulated before closing up the walls.


It's 62 now if that's the case it must have been a big band aid. I miss the clayton


----------



## gary38532

gary38532 said:


> It's 62 now if that's the case it must have been a big band aid. I miss the clayton


The way it's sounding the house has to be warm with no fire in this furance? I dont want to spend any more money to help it. I got so much into it now I would be better off buying propane at this point


----------



## laynes69

Been there done that. When I upgraded, I hated the new furnace. Like you I also had to install a liner. I struggled the first year and slowly made improvements to the house. Fast forward....I dont burn a fraction of the wood I used to and we are much more comfortable. I feel for you...its alot to go through.


----------



## gary38532

laynes69 said:


> Been there done that. When I upgraded, I hated the new furnace. Like you I also had to install a liner. I struggled the first year and slowly made improvements to the house. Fast forward....I dont burn a fraction of the wood I used to and we are much more comfortable. I feel for you...its alot to go through.


so the house has to be perfect for it to work?


----------



## laynes69

gary38532 said:


> so the house has to be perfect for it to work?


No not perfect, but matched for the heat load. A woodfurnace shouldn't be any different than purchasing a central furnace. If a house has a heat loss of 100,000 btus at zero degrees and you purchase a 60,000 btu furnace and it can't keep up....is it the furnace that's to blame? What's the size of your central furnace?


----------



## gary38532

laynes69 said:


> No not perfect, but matched for the heat load. A woodfurnace shouldn't be any different than purchasing a central furnace. If a house has a heat loss of 100,000 btus at zero degrees and you purchase a 60,000 btu furnace and it can't keep up....is it the furnace that's to blame? What's the size of your central furnace?


I don't have anything else besides electric baseboard


----------



## gary38532

I always just heated the house with the clayton all by itself


----------



## laynes69

Our home isn't super tight for it's very old....however just this morning it was around 40 when I woke up....no woodfurnace going and I watched a movie that was an hour and a half long and I didn't drop a degree in the home (73 degrees). With that being said...if you have a good sized woodfurnace (I would consider the Kumma in that category) burning and can't get the house over 68 degrees in 40 degree weather, then your heating the great outdoors. It cannot be the furnace, I don't think it can keep up with the heat load, or it's not ducted right. I've never seen a post with a Kuuma not operating correctly, but I have seen a post or two where they were not large enough for the heating demand of the home. Like I say it's not the furnace's fault if its operating as it should and just isn't sized correctly for the home.


----------



## gary38532

laynes69 said:


> Our home isn't super tight for it's very old....however just this morning it was around 40 when I woke up....no woodfurnace going and I watched a movie that was an hour and a half long and I didn't drop a degree in the home (73 degrees). With that being said...if you have a good sized woodfurnace (I would consider the Kumma in that category) burning and can't get the house over 68 degrees in 40 degree weather, then your heating the great outdoors. It cannot be the furnace, I don't think it can keep up with the heat load, or it's not ducted right. I've never seen a post with a Kuuma not operating correctly, but I have seen a post or two where they were not large enough for the heating demand of the home. Like I say it's not the furnace's fault if its operating as it should and just isn't sized correctly for the home.


----------



## gary38532

Well I'm going to have the switch it back then. I still got the old Clayton in the basement just not hooked up.


----------



## woodey

If you have a firebox full of coals make sure your primary air vents are clear of coals. As Brenn. has said I also prefer not loading the box full, maybe 1/2 to 2/3 depending on weather conditions and sometimes if I end up with a lot of coals at the end of the the cycle I turn the lower limit switch down to 100 and the blower cycles on more often.


----------



## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> It's 62 now



seriously?!  wow.  
Just thinking out loud here....
I know you don't have a return air hooked up.  Is the furnace in the basement and do you have good cycling of air?  Just wondering if, for some reason, you are not getting good internal cold air circulation.  Grasping at straws here.  



gary38532 said:


> I don't have anything else besides electric baseboard



Do you have any records which show what you've used in electricity during a full heating season....or better yet, over numerous heating seasons so you can average them?  Maybe from a previous owner or from your electric company...??  One could take what you've consumed in the past to heat the house and convert it to wood required to produce the same BTU's.  Heck, even a couple months worth of heating bills in the dead of winter would work.  I believe you did mention you burned 10 cords (?) a winter with the Clayton...?  That's a lot of wood for the temps you see in the winter.

This is really mind boggling.


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> I heated my 2800 sqft home with a old Clayton 1800 for the last 6 year here in northern PA. It always did a very good job keeping the house 75 even on the coldest January nights. The only problem was it went through about 9 cords of wood and dirty the chimney all the time.


Something doesn't add up here...a Clayton 1800, (which is a large furnace) with all its known inefficiencies, would heat the house to 75* on 9 cords in the coldest weather, but the VF100 wont do 69* running hard at 40* outside...it just doesn't add up...I don't get it...scratching my head here...


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> I don't get it...scratching my head here...



same here  

I would like to see what his delta is....if it's 30-40° that should be -plenty- to heat the house in those temps.  Assuming return air temps of no more than 65° (if anything they may be lower than that if the upstairs is 68° at the most) AND good internal return air circulation.  He was seeing 100° plenum temps with the blower on HIGH......100-65 = 35° or higher.  With the blower on HIGH!


----------



## gary38532

gary38532 said:


> Well I'm going to have the switch it back then. I still got the old Clayton in the basement just not hooked up.


In 40 I had to open the windows with the clayton th





brenndatomu said:


> Something doesn't add up here...a Clayton 1800, (which is a large furnace) with all its known inefficiencies, would heat the house to 75* on 9 cords in the coldest weather, but the VF100 wont do 69* running hard at 40* outside...it just doesn't add up...I don't get it...scratching my head here...


It's a fact I use to open the windows in 40 and I only filled the clayton half way


----------



## gary38532

with the clayton last jan no electric


----------



## gary38532

This is what I got with the VF100 Blower is on low closest duct from the stove about 3 feet away


----------



## JRHAWK9

wait a second............return air is WARMER than the temp is upstairs.  This tells me you don't have very good return air circulation.  The basement area at the floor, should be the coldest part of the house, if things are working the way they should be.


----------



## gary38532

gary38532 said:


> Well I'm going to have the switch it back then. I still got the old Clayton in the basement just not hooked up.


In 40 I had to open the windows with the clayton th





JRHAWK9 said:


> wait a second............return air is WARMER than the temp is upstairs.  This tells me you don't have very good return air circulation.  The basement area, especially at the floor, should be the coldest part of the house.


Should I turn the fan back on high?


----------



## laynes69

Looking at your humidity levels in your pictures....they are low indicating high levels of air infiltration.


----------



## maple1

JRHAWK9 said:


> wait a second............return air is WARMER than the temp is upstairs.  This tells me you don't have very good return air circulation.  The basement area at the floor, should be the coldest part of the house, if things are working the way they should be.



Aren't we seeing 66 return and 96 supply?


----------



## JRHAWK9

laynes69 said:


> Looking at your humidity levels in your pictures....they are low indicating high levels of air infiltration.



Looks like his dew point is 20°......which is darn dry for the temps he's seeing. 

I know we lose a fair amount of heat through the roof as in the dead of winter we will got down to single digit RH in the house.  Having said that, our current dew point in the house is 40° (73° and 30% RH).


----------



## JRHAWK9

maple1 said:


> Aren't we seeing 66 return and 96 supply?



correct, but 66° return and 63° in the house upstairs (assuming it's upstairs).  Back when I had my cold air on the basement floor, it was ALWAYS the coldest air in the house....and should be if convection air movement in the house is proper.


----------



## gary38532

I just shut half the house off. Only heating the side with the water and bedrooms. It just happens to be the better insulated side of the house too.


----------



## maple1

JRHAWK9 said:


> correct, but 66° return and 63° in the house upstairs (assuming it's upstairs).  Back when I had my cold air on the basement floor, it was ALWAYS the coldest air in the house....and should be if convection air movement in the house is proper.



Gotcha.


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> correct, but 66° return and 63° in the house upstairs (assuming it's upstairs).  Back when I had my cold air on the basement floor, it was ALWAYS the coldest air in the house....and should be if convection air movement in the house is proper.


that was upstairs yes


----------



## JRHAWK9

Years ago I experimented with closing the door to the room with the wood furnace in it, forcing the return air to come from the clothes shoot (which extends all the way up to the loft) and totally disrupting the natural return air convection air pattern.  Lets just say it was a noticeable difference and not for the better.  Did it one night and the house temp dropped.  I even told my other half in the morning how that did not work out so well.

What I learned from that is having proper return air flow is rather important.  I'm wondering if this is part of the issue.  No idea, but having your house temp colder than your actual basement floor (return air) temp is not normal and not right.


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> Years ago I experimented with closing the door to the room with the wood furnace in it, forcing the return air to come from the clothes shoot (which extends all the way up to the loft) and totally disrupting the natural return air convection air pattern.  Lets just say it was a noticeable difference and not for the better.  Did it one night and the house temp dropped.  I even told my other half in the morning how that did not work out so well.
> 
> What I learned from that is having proper return air flow is rather important.  I'm wondering if this is part of the issue.  No idea, but having your house temp colder than your actual basement floor (return air) temp is not normal and not right.


I dont know i dont see how its not geting back to the stove its wide open.


----------



## maple1

JRHAWK9 said:


> Years ago I experimented with closing the door to the room with the wood furnace in it, forcing the return air to come from the clothes shoot (which extends all the way up to the loft) and totally disrupting the natural return air convection air pattern.  Lets just say it was a noticeable difference and not for the better.  Did it one night and the house temp dropped.  I even told my other half in the morning how that did not work out so well.
> 
> What I learned from that is having proper return air flow is rather important.  I'm wondering if this is part of the issue.  No idea, but having your house temp colder than your actual basement floor (return air) temp is not normal and not right.



Maybe it's just outside air infiltration affecting the upstairs more than the basement?


----------



## gary38532

laynes69 said:


> Looking at your humidity levels in your pictures....they are low indicating high levels of air infiltration.


I noticed that too. The only time I got low humidity levels like that was in Jan/Feb. Useally like 35% this time of year. With the VF100 Im geting them now in Nov/Dec


----------



## maple1

gary38532 said:


> I noticed that too. The only time I got low humidity levels like that was in Jan/Feb. Useally like 35% this time of year. With the VF100 Im geting them now in Nov/Dec



Do you have more than one humidity measurer? I've had them go wonky sometimes.


----------



## gary38532

maple1 said:


> Do you have more than one humidity measurer? I've had them go wonky sometimes.


yes I have two and they macth


----------



## woodey

I realize this very unlikely but a few years ago I called and talked to Dale (Lamppa MFG) and he mentioned a case where someone was not getting enough heat from their VF and  the problem was that a mouse had managed to get into the primary air damper and effect the air flow to the furnace.


----------



## gary38532

woodey said:


> I realize this very unlikely but a few years ago I called and talked to Dale (Lamppa MFG) and he mentioned a case where someone was not getting enough heat from their VF and  the problem was that a mouse had managed to get into the primary air damper and effect the air flow to the furnace.


lol thats funny. I dont think thats what going on in my case though you can hear the air being pulled into the furnace.


----------



## Case1030

How often did you have to feed your clayton in this exact weather?

The VF will produce quite a bit more heat per pound of wood. But you won't be able to load the same amount as a non epa. 

I know you mentioned 1/2 loads (clayton) would heat your house well... but how often are loading to keep up? I doubt you can go 10 hours between fills.

The clayton can chew through alot of wood fast = more raw heat. 

Sounds like you can't burn enough wood to keep up with heat load.

All you can do is reduce heat loss. Proper return air and fix air infiltration (spayfoam cans and silicon cocking). If all fails at least your house is easier to heat for the clayton.


----------



## gary38532

Case1030 said:


> How often did you have to feed your clayton in this exact weather?
> 
> The VF will produce quite a bit more heat per pound of wood. But you won't be able to load the same amount as a non epa.
> 
> I know you mentioned 1/2 loads (clayton) would heat your house well... but how often are loading to keep up? I doubt you can go 10 hours between fills.
> 
> The clayton can chew through alot of wood fast = more raw heat.
> 
> Sounds like you can't burn enough wood to keep up with heat load.
> 
> All you can do is reduce heat loss. Proper return air and fix air infiltration (spayfoam cans and silicon cocking). If all fails at least your house is easier to heat for the clayton.


I was filling the clayton like 3 times a day it would be cooled down to about 65 when I got home from work (11 hours later) it would quickly warm in back up though. I would fill at 5 in the morning when I got up for work. Once I got home at 5 again and then once before bed. I think the clayton was hiding probelms in the house. I might call usa insulation tomorrow and see if they can get some to come out and audit the house. today the vf100 was only able to rasie the temperture one degree going from 63 to 64


----------



## brenndatomu

I'm not sure if its right or not, but what I looked up said the Clayton 1800 has a 9 CF firebox?! (over double the VF) And an 8" flue...sounds like some pretty serious firepower to me...


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> I'm not sure if its right or not, but what I looked up said the Clayton 1800 has a 9 CF firebox?! (over double the VF) And an 8" flue...sounds like some pretty serious firepower to me...


Yup its a big one


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> I'm not sure if its right or not, but what I looked up said the Clayton 1800 has a 9 CF firebox?! (over double the VF) And an 8" flue...sounds like some pretty serious firepower to me...


I never filled it to the max though because it would be to long for my spliter so I used 24 inch pieces


----------



## brenndatomu

Case1030 said:


> Sounds like you can't burn enough wood to keep up with heat load.
> 
> All you can do is reduce heat loss. Proper return air and fix air infiltration (spayfoam cans and silicon cocking). If all fails at least your house is easier to heat for the clayton.


I doubt you could burn 9 cords of wood in a season in a VF if your life depended on it.
Yes a few cans of spray foam/caulk can sometimes pay some huge dividends...even with "good" insulation, air sealing can still be a real issue.
I bought a Seek infrared camera like @laynes69  mentioned earlier...was only $100...for me it showed me that there was no real bad air leaks, just areas that need more insulation...still working on that.


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> I doubt you could burn 9 cords of wood in a season in a VF if your life depended on it.
> Yes a few cans of spray foam/caulk can sometimes pay some huge dividends...even with "good" insulation, air sealing can still be a real issue.
> I bought a Seek infrared camera like @laynes69  mentioned earlier...was only $100...for me it showed me that there was no real bad air leaks, just areas that need more insulation...still working on that.


In my house theres is going to be areas I cant fix though like the ceiling in the living room is a cathedral and its full of insulation all ready


----------



## gary38532

This is the room Im talking about if it leaks I bet its here. Problem is theres only about 6 inches between the roof and drywall


----------



## brenndatomu

Yeah you can only do some much with cathedral ceilings...I bet an audit shows other problem areas that are worse.
You said you run the ceiling fan in winter mode in the high ceiling areas?


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Yeah you can only do some much with cathedral ceilings...I bet an audit shows other problem areas that are worse.
> You said you run the ceiling fan in winter mode in the high ceiling areas?


I do but it doesn't do anything


----------



## gary38532

also thats always been the hardest room to heat in the house. its the first to cool down and last to heat up even with the clayton


----------



## gary38532

The blower motor just started making mechanical noises it did for like 10 mins and now stopped and sounds normal again not sure what that was all about


----------



## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> The blower motor just started making mechanical noises it did for like 10 mins and now stopped and sounds normal again not sure what that was all about



could just be a vibration causing something to rattle...?


----------



## gary38532

it didnt sound like vibration to me thats fan always sounded strange almost choppy sounding but its never made noise like that before


----------



## Mrpelletburner

JRHAWK9 said:


> could just be a vibration causing something to rattle...?



The blower just became a wood chipper and took care of that mouse.


----------



## gary38532

Mrpelletburner said:


> The blower just became a wood chipper and took care of that mouse.


who knows at this point


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> it didnt sound like vibration to me thats fan always sounded strange almost choppy sounding but its never made noise like that before


That noise you are describing makes me think of too much static pressure in the duct system...or something...ever talked to Lamppa about it?
I think I have heard the noise you are talking about...but I am trying to remember under what circumstances...


----------



## brenndatomu

I had a leaf get in the blower of a different furnace when it sat in the garage for a while...made a heck of a racket when it when through the blower!


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> That noise you are describing makes me think of too much static pressure in the duct system...or something...ever talked to Lamppa about it?
> I think I have heard the noise you are talking about...but I am trying to remember under what circumstances...



He has a manometer, maybe he should put the hose on the other connection (assuming he's using the large scale for vacuum) and stick the other end in the plenum and see what his SP is.....?


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> He has a manometer, maybe he should put the hose on the other connection (assuming he's using the large scale for vacuum) and stick the other end in the plenum and see what his SP is.....?


That was going through my mind too...


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> He has a manometer, maybe he should put the hose on the other connection (assuming he's using the large scale for vacuum) and stick the other end in the plenum and see what his SP is.....?


I can do that. its just started making that sound again. Im a little confused on what you want me to do. Use the port on the high side to measure it?


----------



## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> I can do that. its just started making that sound again. Im a little confused on what you want me to do. Use the port on the high side to measure it?



yep, put it on the high side and then slide the other end inside the plenum with the blower running.  Measure both low and high speeds while you are at it.


----------



## gary38532

ok high and low all the ducts are open in the house


----------



## JRHAWK9

Looks good to me.... @brenndatomu ?

If anything maybe a hair low, but nothing that will make any real world difference, IMO.


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> Looks good to me.... @brenndatomu ?
> 
> If anything maybe a hair low, but nothing that will make any real world difference, IMO.


Absolutely fine IMO...way better than mine!


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Absolutely fine IMO...way better than mine!


wow I'm surprised I figured since everything else was wrong that would be too haha


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> wow I'm surprised I figured since everything else was wrong that would be too haha


My ducts are all over sized due to being made for a monster coal furnace back in 1940...the only way I can get any real SP is to close all my registers...I have learned that SP is not normally that important on a solid fuel furnace as long as you are getting good temp rise through the furnace...mine runs about 40*...70* in, 110* out, on average...obviously those numbers vary a bit based on house temp and the state of the fire in the VF...


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> My ducts are all over sized due to being made for a monster coal furnace back in 1940...the only way I can get any real SP is to close all my registers...I have learned that SP is not normally that important on a solid fuel furnace as long as you are getting good temp rise through the furnace...mine runs about 40*...70* in, 110* out, on average...obviously those numbers vary a bit based on house temp and the state of the fire in the VF...


hmmm do you think I would get more heat with bigger ones?


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> hmmm do you think I would get more heat with bigger ones?


I doubt it...how many and how big are they? What is the total sq in? You could always add more ducts...


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> I doubt it...how many and how big are they? What is the total sq in? You could always add more ducts...


I dont really know to tell you the truth. I have two main runs in the house one going through the left side of the house the other going to the right it brakes of to smaller runs that go to the rooms 9 times


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> I dont really know to tell you the truth. I have two main runs in the house one going through the left side of the house the other going to the right it brakes of to smaller runs that go to the rooms 9 times


Sounds like it is surely enough total sq inches to accomadate the furnace...surprised that your SP is that high. Are there dampers in the duct system that are partially closed?
Is this the same duct system that the Clayton ran to? If it was big enough to distribute the heat from that monster it should do the  job for the VF...


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> this is what Ive been burning. I have lots more in my pole barn thats what Im burning tonight. I'm hoping this will give me less coals. Thats why I swicthed to the cherry in my pole barn.


Some of that looks kinda freshly cut...still tests out good on the MC after being re-split and checked in the middle?
As @JRHAWK9  mentioned earlier, a wet split or two is enough to throw off the "normal" performance of a load...let alone a whole load of marginal wood...must not be too far off if you are getting some time on pilot (c) though...


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Sounds like it is surely enough total sq inches to accomadate the furnace...surprised that your SP is that high. Are there dampers in the duct system that are partially closed?
> Is this the same duct system that the Clayton ran to? If it was big enough to distribute the heat from that monster it should do the  job for the VF...


yeah its the same duct work I think its the small ducts thats making the pressure... I have one shut off


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Some of that looks kinda freshly cut...still tests out good on the MC after being re-split and checked in the middle?
> As @JRHAWK9  mentioned earlier, a wet split or two is enough to throw off the "normal" performance of a load...let alone a whole load of marginal wood...must not be too far off if you are getting some time on pilot (c) though...


I did check it I can check again. It does burn very hot


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> Absolutely fine IMO...way better than mine!



I just dug threw some old PM's from my first year and originally my SP was at 0.07" W.C.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

JRHAWK9 said:


> I just dug threw some old PM's from my first year and originally my SP was at 0.07" W.C.



How do you measure SP?


----------



## gary38532

I think its more of a problem when the house gets  to 68 its all out of flue and going to coals and then the house cools off quickly. I know they say not to leave the door open to burn them down but what if i did. I never did it because Im worried about braking it.  Im talking about the front door not the ash pan door. I never leave any of them open


----------



## JRHAWK9

Mrpelletburner said:


> How do you measure SP?



Put your manometer hose on the high side nipple and slide the other end in the plenum.  Make sure you don't open up too large of gap, as your reading won't be accurate then.  You are then measuring your supply SP (which will be positive pressure).  To measure your return SP, put the hose on the low side and slide it into the blower box, this will measure the vacuum of the return side.


----------



## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> I think its more of a problem when the house gets  to 68 its all out of flue and going to coals and then the house cools off quickly. I know they say not to leave the door open to burn them down but what if i did. I never did it because Im worried about braking it.  Im talking about the front door not the ash pan door. I never leave any of them open




I wouldn't do either....just asking for trouble, IMO.  Just rake the coals forward and add a small piece of pine or kiln dried lumber on top of the coals.  It will help burn the coals down faster while giving heat.  Those types of wood really don't coal much so you wouldn't be adding to the coals.


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> I wouldn't do either....just asking for trouble, IMO.  Just rake the coals forward and add a small piece of pine or kiln dried lumber on top of the coals.  It will help burn the coals down faster while giving heat.  Those types of wood really don't coal much so you wouldn't be adding to the coals.


yeah that's what I been doing


----------



## gary38532

I'm going to call the manufacturer tomorrow see what they think I should do next.  Its sounding like the house has to be sealed up for this to work and mines just not there.


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> I did check it I can check again. It does burn very hot


Wouldn't hurt to keep checking once in a while...wet wood is one of the most common issues when someone gets a new stove and it doesn't heat well. Wouldn't hurt to keep an eye on any/all of the little things we have discussed in this thread...once you get one thing fixed sometimes one of the other things you checked earlier (and was OK) can circle back around and bite you in the butt later on. One of the many hats I wear at work is "systems troubleshooting" and I have learned this lesson more than once, let me tell ya!


----------



## gary38532

maple1 said:


> Maybe it's just outside air infiltration affecting the upstairs more than the basement?


I think that is whats going on


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> I know they say not to leave the door open to burn them down but what if i did. I never did it because Im worried about braking it. Im talking about the front door not the ash pan door. I never leave any of them open


I agree, no doors open...that could create forge like temps! I dont think it would work well anyways because of the deep firebox below the door...and leaving the ash pan door open is almost a guarantee for problems IMO. Pulling the coals forward is a good way to burn down coals with the Kuuma, especially with the way the primary air comes into the firebox...kinda like blowing on a candle.


----------



## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> I'm going to call the manufacturer tomorrow see what they think I should do next.  Its sounding like the house has to be sealed up for this to work and mines just not there.



Really wish you had some heating bills (without wood help) you could look at to help quantify heat load.


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> Really wish you had some heating bills (without wood help) you could look at to help quantify heat load.


That would answer the million dollar question wouldn't it?!


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> I agree, no doors open...that could create forge like temps! I dont think it would work well anyways because of the deep firebox below the door...and leaving the ash pan door open is almost a guarantee for problems IMO. Pulling the coals forward is a good way to burn down coals with the Kuuma, especially with the way the primary air comes into the firebox...kinda like blowing on a candle.


ok Ill just keep doing what Ive been doing then. I just hit 68 in the house tonight. Regular heat wave in here tonight haha


----------



## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> ok Ill just keep doing what Ive been doing then. I just hit 68 in the house tonight. Regular heat wave in here tonight haha




Blower on low or high?  How about the Kuuma computer?


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> ok Ill just keep doing what Ive been doing then. I just hit 68 in the house tonight. Regular heat wave in here tonight haha


This is with not heating part of the house?


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> Really wish you had some heating bills (without wood help) you could look at to help quantify heat load.


The problem is the house was foreclosed and I bought it. The people that lost it heated it with the clayton so they wouldn't know.  I would have to track down the original owner. Hes the only one who would have used the electric. Plus what did he keep the house with it? Most people that use electric don't keep it very warm. He did stop here one day when I first got the house and he told me he never had any problems heating it but I have my doubts.


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> This is with not heating part of the house?


no this is the whole house on. I switched it back on this afternoon worried its putting to much pressure on the blower


----------



## gary38532

gary38532 said:


> The problem is the house was foreclosed and I bought it. The people that lost it heated it with the clayton so they wouldn't know.  I would have to track down the original owner. Hes the only one who would have used the electric. Plus what did he keep the house with it? Most people that use electric don't keep it very warm. He did stop here one day when I first got the house and he told me he never had any problems heating it but I have my doubts.


Or I could turn them on myself for a month and find out but that would really kick my wallet in the teeth. I bet it would be a lot of watts


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> Blower on low or high?  How about the Kuuma computer?


high fan... computers on 2.... 30 outside in the middle of a ice storm


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> The problem is the house was foreclosed and I bought it. The people that lost it heated it with the clayton so they wouldn't know.  I would have to track down the original owner. Hes the only one who would have used the electric. Plus what did he keep the house with it? Most people that use electric don't keep it very warm. He did stop here one day when I first got the house and he told me he never had any problems heating it but I have my doubts.


Call the electric company, they should have the records...


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Call the electric company, they should have the records...


from like 20 years ago though? Ill give it a shot either way


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> no this is the whole house on. I switched it back on this afternoon worried its putting to much pressure on the blower


Leaving that part of the house off wont hurt the blower...especially on low. When you block a fan (from either side) the amps go down, not up. You can try it...slide a piece of cardboard in the filter slot to block it off...you will hear the blower speed go up from reduced load


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> from like 20 years ago though? Ill give it a shot either way


Depends on the company I suppose...


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Leaving that part of the house off wont hurt the blower...especially on low. When you block a fan (from either side) the amps go down, not up. You can try it...slide a piece of cardboard in the filter slot to block it off...you will hear the blower speed go up from reduced load


ok it seems like that cold air in there cools the kitchen off.... its just leaches through the whole house... maybe Ill block it off with a plastic tarp or something just to see what happens


----------



## brenndatomu

To add to my post about blocking off the blower with cardboard just for a test...don't leave it like that long...the blower motor needs _some_ air flowing to keep itself cool...


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> To add to my post about blocking off the blower with cardboard just for a test...don't leave it like that long...the blower motor needs _some_ air flowing to keep itself cool...


I'm not going to test it I believe you... One last thing I would like too add.... I know it sounds crazy but I swear when there is snow on the roof its easier to heat this house


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> I'm not going to test it I believe you... One last thing I would like too add.... I know it sounds crazy but I swear when there is snow on the roof its easier to heat this house


Snow is a decent insulator...ever play in a snow fort/igloo as a kid...can get pretty warm in there!


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Snow is a decent insulator...ever play in a snow fort as a kid...can get pretty warm in there!


yup and that makes me think the ceilings are the problem


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> yup and that makes me think the ceilings are the problem


It would be some work, but I have heard of people putting 2-3" thick rigid foam insulation panels up on cathedral ceilings to beef up the insulation...not sure how it gets finished though...heck they might make panels specifically for this for all I know...


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> It would be some work, but I have heard of people putting 2-3" thick rigid foam insulation panels up on cathedral ceilings to beef up the insulation...not sure how it gets finished though...heck they might make panels specifically for this for all I know...


I'm definitely going to look into it


----------



## brenndatomu

This is an illustration I found of what I am remembering reading about...havent found the article yet though


----------



## JRHAWK9

Our place would benefit from that too.  We lose a lot of heat through the roof and roof peak.


----------



## brenndatomu

Putting the foam on the inside eliminates thermal bridging too...and since it goes right against the existing ceiling there is no moisture/ventilation issues to deal with...again, this is all from memory...and anybody that has been around here for long knows I have CRS...


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> This is an illustration I found of what I am remembering reading about...havent found the article yet though
> View attachment 252567


I would like the have it foamed but I dont want to rip my ceiling down


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> I would like the have it foamed but I dont want to rip my ceiling down


You could fur it out with 2x2s (or whatever size you want) over top of the existing rafters, have it foamed, new drywall over the foam. Furring running perpendicular to the existing framing to break most of the thermal bridging...this is all assuming the existing framing would take the additional weight OK...once you factor in snow load, 2 layers of shingles, etc etc...
Extension boxes over the electrical boxes...not too much trouble there then


----------



## RockyMtnGriz

I have 2 masonry flues in my house currently, in addition to the Class A that the Kuuma is on.  I would have happily demolished them long ago, were not the structure holding up part of the house and the roof.  But I do have plans...  Flues made of stone and earth are a stone age solution that should have been abandoned long ago.


gary38532 said:


> Did you try to run the kumma on the stone ones? Was the class a put up special for the kumma?


Hi Gary,
First off, congratulations on having the hot thread on Hearth!  You asked me this question many pages ago, so I feel obliged to respond:
My house was built with a massive central block/faux stone 2 flue central chimney.  In addition to this mess, they also put in a
Clayton 1600 on a separate class A Metalbestos  flue, at the bottom of a walkout lower floor, upper floor, and vaulted ceiling/partial finished attic scenario. I replaced the Clayton with the Kuuma, so no, I never tried to run it on the masonry flues.

This might get long from here, so if you don't like reading, scroll down - don't complain!  What's below is mainly intended as food for thought for the next guy pondering their next move.

My dislike for masonry chimneys stems from the fact that I've lived with both.  I currently have problems with the cat stove on my lowest floor that's attached to the masonry.  In the past, every masonry chimney I've lived with had problems with draft, durability. or crud buildup.  I've never had a problem with a Metalbestos class A flue.  I started as an apprentice firefighter at 16,  I'm now 55.  I've been a paid firefighter, and I've also volunteered a lot of years.  I've never seen a class A flue that set a house on fire where somebody didn't do something really stupid.  I've seen many a masonry flue setup where it set the house on fire, and yeah, it might have been stupid, but stupid or deteriorated seems to have been incorporated into all the masonry setups I've been called to.  I'm going to catch hell for that from the masons, and maybe I deserve it, because I never got called to the ones that were built right.  I'm just going to say that there's a lot more leeway to do a masonry chimney wrong, than there is to do a class A wrong, and stainless steel doesn't deteriorate much! Plus a class A is inherently better insulated so it will work better and collect a lot less creosote. I should say my love for class A does not extend to the multi-wall versions that use cold outside air in place of insulation. Insulation= clean.  Cold air=creosote and less draft.
If you're rolling with the liner and such, go with it, but at the temps this time of year, I wouldn't think that the properly constructed, even outside chimney you have, would be the problem - if you don't have leaks. I'm lost at where you're at with the liner, and this and that, but I would think that an unlined masonry chimney would work.  I've read that your baro damper is now opening, and you don't need more than that.  More is just pulling heated air up your chimney - and begs an outside air source.

The change from the Clayton (1600) to the Kuuma (VF100) has been a big plus for me so far.  Both were (are) providing not only my space heat, but all of my DHW.  I don't know if the Kuuma is up to heating adequately in -40 or more temps, but the Clayton wasn't really up to that alone either.  I have a big, leaky, multistory log house.  I don't try to fully heat it all, and I prefer to heat the living part of my house to around 56 to 58 f this time of the year.  The other approx. 50% of the house comprises work areas or marginally used areas that don't have to be as warm, but constitute insulation.  For the last few snowy days (no sun), with temps of around 0 f at night to +10 during the day, I've been running the stove between low to + 2 lines at night, to med+2 lines during the day.  Granted, I'm not trying tp get anywhere near 74, and comparisons of different houses and their unique heat losses, are so meaningless.

My impression, so far, is that if I had an unlimited pile of wood, and unlimited time and effort to throw that wood into a box, I would be able to generate more heat with the Clayton 1600 than with the Kuuma.  For me, though, slow and steady is winning the race! I have other things to do in the winter than to feed the Clayton every 2 or so hours during the day, and than to get up in the middle of the night to feed the stove with creative wood stacks to hopefully have something burning in the morning. I could have fed the Clayton less frequently, but 2 hours seemed to be what was best for a clean burn that didn't run away either.  I was regulating the fire by the amount of wood in the box, rather than limiting air.  My Kuuma is heating when I get up in the morning, when my Clayton mostly wasn't.  The Clayton 1800, that you removed, I'm sure is capable of quite a bit more heat.

If I (we) wanted the house at 74, I'm sure I could do it this time of year with the Kuuma.  I (we) just don't see the need. This time of year, when temps are ranging from -10f to +36f, I'm feeding from 1 1/2 to 3 times a day.  It's easier, actually, if it's colder, because stretching out the coals to avoid a cold start, on the warmer days, is more of a pita.  I know, if I get behind the heat demand, it's a lot harder to catch up than it was with the Clayton.  The Kuuma has a lot more mass, and it just isn't built to run at the draft roaring, chimney glowing, kinda thing, that the Clayton does so well. I can't prove it, yet, but I think the Clayton was wasting at least 1/3 of the wood I put into it.
If you go out and look a the lack of smoke coming from you Kuuma chimney, then consider the difference between touching the stove pipe from the Clayton, and the Kuuma, you'll know that you're working with different system.  So far, it seems like setting the stove to what you would want based on the weather 12-24 hours from now is best.

Can't say the switch is going to work for you, but so far it's working for me.


----------



## RockyMtnGriz

[I'm not going to test it I believe you... One last thing I would like too add.... I know it sounds crazy but I swear when there is snow on the roof its easier to heat this house
QUOTE="brenndatomu, post: 2397394, member: 28195"]
Snow is a decent insulator...ever play in a snow fort/igloo as a kid...can get pretty warm in there!
[/QUOTE]
My house is mostly cathedral ceilings - and it's DEFINITELY easier to heat once there's a few feet of snow on the roof. It has ridge vents, which once well covered over makes the ice dam problem worse, But the heating gets eaisier.  In the perfect world, I'd add more ceiling insulation, along with a roof cupola that isn't subject to being covered over, for the best of both worlds.
Kinda thinking that I might add a cupola that would vent the attic space, plus the area around the flues, when I jackhammer off the masonry chimney that extends above the roofline of my house.  It only seems to serve to wick heat from inside my house to out, and to provide a leak prone joint between masonry and wood/shingle roof.


----------



## gary38532

RockyMtnGriz said:


> [I'm not going to test it I believe you... One last thing I would like too add.... I know it sounds crazy but I swear when there is snow on the roof its easier to heat this house
> QUOTE="brenndatomu, post: 2397394, member: 28195"]
> Snow is a decent insulator...ever play in a snow fort/igloo as a kid...can get pretty warm in there!


My house is mostly cathedral ceilings - and it's DEFINITELY easier to heat once there's a few feet of snow on the roof. It has ridge vents, which once well covered over makes the ice dam problem worse, But the heating gets eaisier.  In the perfect world, I'd add more ceiling insulation, along with a roof cupola that isn't subject to being covered over, for the best of both worlds.
Kinda thinking that I might add a cupola that would vent the attic space, plus the area around the flues, when I jackhammer off the masonry chimney that extends above the roofline of my house.  It only seems to serve to wick heat from inside my house to out, and to provide a leak prone joint between masonry and wood/shingle roof.
[/QUOTE]
I wouldnt even be willing to do the work that firewood requires just to keep the house 56. I never filled my clayton every 2 hours. It took a whole wheelbarrow of wood and it would last all day while I was at work for 11 hours but I didn't blow on the fire when I wasn't home. Jan/Feb it would use like 3 wheelbarrows a day. I know that's alot of wood before anyone even says it but the house would hit 77 at times in our coldest weather. The reason why I decided to get rid of it was the wood usage and it dirty the chimney quickly. Cleaning it every two months. It probably would have burned the house down in the end. That being said I'm not trying to do anything sinister to the Lamppas. I just want my stove to work the best it possibly can and there's lots of people on here that know alot more about it then myself. There is alot of stuff the vf100 has done well first and foremost the wood consumption is half of what my clayton was and thats burning on MAX 24/7 and trust me I would not say it if it wasn't true. The stove truly doesn't smoke and anyone with eyes can tell its constructed like a tank compared too the thin walls of my clayton. The scraping of the ashes down the hole and then pulling the hot coals forward is a beautiful system. Never have to worry about making a big mess shoveling ashes out of the stove. I think it's good for this to be here so people like myself will know what they might be geting into with ANY epa furance. (not just the vf100) If they are going from a old school burner like myself. When it comes down to it the old burners hid sins and the new ones don't so you may find out your house isn't as tight as you once thought. One last thing! If you touched the stove pipe on my old clayton you would have been going to the hospital


----------



## gary38532

I got much better results this morning 70 in the house right now at 5am. I pulled the coals forward before bed and then put a single piece of wood on them that was only about 4 inch long so it couldnt coal up in the back of the stove. It kept it from droping through out the night and was ready to be reload when I woke up. I think my biggest problem is the house just is not holding on to heat.


----------



## maple1

So there's quite a bit of data in the thread. All you other VF guys - do the OP's dT numbers look decent for the setting it's being run at? 

Don't think I've seen any flue temps though - would those help too? Or maybe I missed some.


----------



## gary38532

maple1 said:


> So there's quite a bit of data in the thread. All you other VF guys - do the OP's dT numbers look decent for the setting it's being run at?
> 
> Don't think I've seen any flue temps though - would those help too? Or maybe I missed some.


No you didn't miss it I havent checked it


----------



## JRHAWK9

maple1 said:


> So there's quite a bit of data in the thread. All you other VF guys - do the OP's dT numbers look decent for the setting it's being run at?



I'm trying to remember back to right after I installed it what I was seeing before I started playing around with SP and trying different things.  In the middle of the burn I recall consistent plenum temps of around 95°-100°..... my return air temp was probably around 65° as it was getting picked up off the cold concrete basement floor.  I remember it being 65° a lot and not changing a whole lot.  This was with the blower on low with the Kuuma on minimum burn as well.  I believe when I put the Kuuma on high and the blower on high I was still seeing right around the same plenum temps.  The only time I would run the blower on high back then was when the Kuuma was also on high.  So right around the 30°-35° area is what I believe I used to see with my original, out of the box, install before I made any tweaks to my return/supply air.  Between 30° and 40° would be a safe bet.

Fast forward to now with a speed controlled blower running way slower and taking the return air off the basement ceiling and also taking some of the radiant heat off the front face of the Kuuma.  My return air (with a fire going), ranges from about 78°-84° and my supply temps range from 115°-120° with the computer on minimum burn.  So I'm seeing about a 36°-37° max dT, with the Kuuma on minimum burn.  On maximum burn (going off of memory from last winter) I will see max plenum temps around 124° (and for a longer duration)...so 40°-44° max dT.  Keep in mind, thanks to the speed controlled blower, the warmer the plenum temps get, the higher the volume of warmer air being sent to the registers will be.

So, IIRC, his dT is similar to what I remember seeing back when my install was like his.



maple1 said:


> Don't think I've seen any flue temps though - would those help too? Or maybe I missed some.



Probably would, however, I've learned that the length and placement of probe can make a big difference in temps.  I messed around with placement of mine and just by sliding it out an inch or two can make a 50°+ difference in what it reads.  Placing it on the top or bottom of the pipe also makes a difference.  I now have mine placed where I found it to be the maximum of the locations and probe depth of which I've tried.


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> Probably would, however, I've learned that the length and placement of probe can make a big difference in temps. I messed around with placement of mine and just by sliding it out an inch or two can make a 50°+ difference in what it reads. Placing it on the top or bottom of the pipe also makes a difference. I now have mine placed where I found it to be the maximum of the locations and probe depth of which I've tried.


I've found the same...


----------



## RockyMtnGriz

Gary, forgive my insomniac ramblings - that's never my best work.  I agree that it's best that we all post our experiences whatever they may be to help the next person in their decisions, and with their difficulties.  Good to hear that you're burning half the wood, just hoping for you that you can find a way to keep enough heat in for this to work when full on winter sets in.  I don't really have a feel for how my wood consumption is going to compare yet, but half would be wonderful!


----------



## gary38532

RockyMtnGriz said:


> Gary, forgive my insomniac ramblings - that's never my best work.  I agree that it's best that we all post our experiences whatever they may be to help the next person in their decisions, and with their difficulties.  Good to hear that you're burning half the wood, just hoping for you that you can find a way to keep enough heat in for this to work when full on winter sets in.  I don't really have a feel for how my wood consumption is going to compare yet, but half would be wonderful!


I just wanted to make sure my intentions were clear is all. Thank you for your advice and time


----------



## gary38532

I just got a two and half hour run on c with med settings. My longest one to date. The only thing I did differently was adding a small piece of wood to the front not in the back when my blower shut off.  When it shut off again it was ready for more wood and went to c after I reloaded it.  I noticed that my draft slowly gets weaker while I sit on c dropping to .04 and then the computer kicked it back up to 1... is that from less heat going up the stack?


----------



## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> I just got a two and half hour run on c with med settings. My longest one to date. The only thing I did differently was adding a small piece of wood to the front not in the back when my blower shut off.  When it shut off again it was ready for more wood and went to c after I reloaded it.  I noticed that my draft slowly gets weaker while I sit on c dropping to .04 and then the computer kicked it back up to 1... is that from less heat going up the stack?



Yes, in a lot of cases your stack temps should continue to drop the longer it's stays on pilot, unless your wood is off-gassing like crazy when you load on a bunch of hot coals (which does happen).  Medium setting, you are looking at holding ~1,180°+ temp at the thermocouple in the firebox.  Once the temp drops below that 1,180° area the computer opens up the primary air to '1' until it meets that 1,180° again.  

Is it possible to up your draft a bit?


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> Yes, in a lot of cases your stack temps should continue to drop the longer it's stays on pilot, unless your wood is off-gassing like crazy when you load on a bunch of hot coals (which does happen).  Medium setting, you are looking at holding ~1,180°+ temp at the thermocouple in the firebox.  Once the temp drops below that 1,180° area the computer opens up the primary air to '1' until it meets that 1,180° again.
> 
> Is it possible to up your draft a bit?


I don't think so the most I've been getting is .06 when it's on 1 with tin foil over the BD. The only time it really needs the BD is when it's starting a fire from nothing. I went all out on the chimney I don't know how I can get anymore?


----------



## gary38532

I still think it seems to be working well imo


----------



## brenndatomu

Holey moley, I don't think I have EVER gotten 2.5 hours on pilot!


----------



## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> I don't think so the most I've been getting is .06 when it's on 1 with tin foil over the BD. The only time it really needs the BD is when it's starting a fire from nothing. I went all out on the chimney I don't know how I can get anymore?




No problem it is what it is.  0.06" is great, I was referring to the 0.04" you mentioned before.  Is that with the BD covered?  Seems like you may not even need a BD...?


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Holey moley, I don't think I have EVER gotten 2.5 hours on pilot!


It was also with my best wood. I was down there next to it cleaning up the mess from all work so I was wacthing the whole time.


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> No problem it is what it is.  0.06" is great, I was referring to the 0.04" you mentioned before.  Is that with the BD covered?  Seems like you may not even need a BD...?


yeah I was thinking about taking it out and just puting a cap on the T .... I covered it after I noticed it droping so I don't really know


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> Holey moley, I don't think I have EVER gotten 2.5 hours on pilot!



That's because you load on 0.001 ounces of coals.       I wish I had that luxury in the dead of winter, but the house loses heat too fast so I have to load on a fair amount of coals.

When I load on a good amount of coals in the dead of winter I get some good pilot times.



gary38532 said:


> yeah I was thinking about taking it out and just puting a cap on the T .... I covered it after I noticed it droping so I don't really know



As long as you monitor your draft and it doesn't get too high, I don't see why you couldn't.  Make sure you keep on eye on it though in windy conditions and put it back in if you see it getting too high.


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> yeah I was thinking about taking it out and just puting a cap on the T .... I covered it after I noticed it droping so I don't really know


No way I would take it out! You will need it this winter. When its real cold out mine can't even keep up...its wide open and draft is still too high (at times)...that's why I put a manual damper in after the baro...take the edge off the draft so that the baro can do its job properly. (keep up) Just to be clear, this only happens (for me) when its 0 or below and maybe when the wind is just right...just keep the baro covered with HD foil if you don't need it...easy to pop off when its needed then. Or if you don't like the foil look it would be easy to make a sheet metal "cap" that just hangs on the front of the baro...paint it black, you'd never notice it.


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> That's because you load on 0.001 ounces of coals.       I wish I had that luxury in the dead of winter, but the house loses heat too fast so I have to load on a fair amount of coals.
> 
> When I load on a good amount of coals in the dead of winter I get some good pilot times.
> 
> 
> 
> As long as you monitor your draft and it doesn't get too high, I don't see why you couldn't.  Make sure you keep on eye on it though in windy conditions and put it back in if you see it getting too high.


Ok will do. I loaded on a big bed of coals too.  Hopefully as I get it more sealed up I wont have to as much.


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> That's because you load on 0.001 ounces of coals.   I wish I had that luxury in the dead of winter, but the house loses heat too fast so I have to load on a fair amount of coals.
> 
> When I load on a good amount of coals in the dead of winter I get some good pilot times.


 Yeah but I wasn't even getting that long on pilot when I was loading on a big pile of coals and loading the firebox clear full last January during that real cold snap...and even had the firebox high temp alarm go off on that one!


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> No way I would take it out! You will need it this winter. When its real cold out mine can't even keep up...its wide open and draft is still too high (at times)...that's why I put a manual damper in after the baro...take the edge off the draft so that the baro can do its job properly. (keep up) Just to be clear, this only happens (for me) when its 0 or below and maybe when the wind is just right...just keep the baro covered with HD foil if you don't need it...easy to pop off when its needed then. Or if you don't like the foil look it would be easy to make a sheet metal "cap" that just hangs on the front of the baro...paint it black, you'd never notice it.


hmm so its going to get a better draft as it gets colder?


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> hmm so its going to get a better draft as it gets colder?


Yup.
A chimney works because the warm air column inside it rises...the greater the difference between the flue gas temps, and the outside air temps, the higher the "draft speed" (air speed in the chimney)


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Yup.
> A chimney works because the warm air column inside it rises...the greater the difference between the flue gas temps, and the outside air temps, the higher the "draft speed" (air speed in the chimney)


ok I'll just leave it with the foil for now and if I see it too high I'll remove it.


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> I still think it seems to be working well imo


So how was the house temp after all this?


----------



## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> ok I'll just leave it with the foil for now and if I see it too high I'll remove it.



Probably a good idea.    I totally brain-farted on it actually getting colder than it is now.


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> So how was the house temp after all this?


its been 72 pretty much all day including now Ive been making a list of things that can be improved in the house. Its pretty big but I'm going to start with all new door seals and fix broken latches on windows.


----------



## gary38532

The master Bedroom is 75 but its the best room heat wize in the house always has been.


----------



## gary38532

I was thinking of getting a Seek Thermal camera but Im not sure about it.... People are saying the low image quality only lets you see a small section of the house at a time and I wanted to see how bad my ceilings are.


----------



## brenndatomu

I'm happy enough with my Seek, its not fire department quality equipment, but does the job for DIY projects just fine I feel...take those reviews with a grain of salt, some people would gripe if they were hung with a new rope!


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> I'm happy enough with my Seek, its not fire department quality equipment, but does the job for DIY projects just fine I feel...take those reviews with a grain of salt, some people would gripe if they were hung with a new rope!


Ok I'll get one then I wanted one for a long time anyway


----------



## Case1030

gary38532 said:


> The master Bedroom is 75 but its the best room heat wize in the house always has been.



Can also work on directing the temperature throughout the house. Personally I like sleeping in 68f room. The extra heat can be directed to another room ideally with less heat loss to act as a sink.


----------



## gary38532

Case1030 said:


> Can also work on directing the temperature throughout the house. Personally I like sleeping in 68f room. The extra heat can be directed to another room ideally with less heat loss to act as a sink.


There is two dampers on the duct work to do that. Ive been slowly adjusting them for the new furance.


----------



## RockyMtnGriz

gary38532 said:


> I don't think so the most I've been getting is .06 when it's on 1 with tin foil over the BD. The only time it really needs the BD is when it's starting a fire from nothing. I went all out on the chimney I don't know how I can get anymore?


While it doesn't really matter if the BD is sealed up, or gone entirely, I'd be tempted to think that if it's only getting a slightly high draft at startup, a BD isn't really needed.  Of course, you'll want to watch as the temps change with winter, but with your outside stack, you might not see an increase in draft when it gets really cold.  I'd love to eliminate the BD if I could, and I threw in some just plain wrong features when I ran my stovepipe, because I already knew I had some excess draft to knock down.  It wasn't enough.  The BD is always open, and I'm currently working on cobbling up an outside air supply for my BD as I can't stand the notion of it sucking the warmest air in the house (next to the furnace) up the pipe 24-7.  I'm not telling anyone to do this, and Lammpa already told me not to do this, but I'm a big boy, and I'll deal with my mistakes - if it turns out to be one.
I'm not in love with the notion of having any holes in my stove pipe, either, and that's what a BD is.  There's going to be situations where that gap around the flap could allow a glowing something to be emitted.  I've done what I can to separate anything that could be fuel from my stove, but that's never perfect, and the thought of some spark ending up in a dust-bunny filled crevice somewhere has always troubled me. I'm working to make the outside air attachment something that would contain such sparks as well.
 I've already had a bit of a problem with the BD allowing black and brown bits out into my room.  I don't know if it was only high winds with the stove off, but I suspect not always.  It didn't start until the stove and pipe had dirtied up somewhat, and I cleaned it all a week or two ago, and it isn't doing it again - yet. 
FWIW, it was one time only, but this week I had a significant smoke explosion in my Kuuma while I was relighting it from minimal coals.  I had put some wood bits, paper, and kindling on the few coals over the grate, and left the ash drawer open to ignite it.  Once well lit, I closed the ash drawer intending to let the stove heat up, while I walked away to pick out what I would feed it next.  My back was turned, but there was a loud whoomph like a really large log toppling down in the fire box would sound like in the old Clayton, but with that low frequency wave moving through my insides feeling, combined with clanking from the BD.  That kind of thing, and a BD, makes me REALLY nervous.  No harm done, but it really got my attention!
The original owners of this house had an arrangement where they were stacking about 1/4 cord of wood literally against the side of the old Clayton.  I'm sure it helped to make the wood just that extra-crispy dry, but for God's sake NO!
Anyway, through all the grief you've experienced, you might just have what I had hoped for - no need for a heat sucking baro damper!

All that aside, it seems like you've gotten a lot more positive on the Kuuma experience.  I'll be really interested to see, as you (I'm assuming here) have a chance to get back to some colder weather with most of the bugs worked out.  I know there was a time a month ago, here at least, where I was surprised at how hard I was already working the Kuuma to keep up.  The weather eased, and it's been more of an issue of deciding weather to let it go out, or not.  It seems like every year during this time, I'm looking at the wood consumption, and the wood supply, thinking that there's no chance of making it to spring, but every year there ends up being plenty left.  Maybe it's snow cover on or around the house, or sun angles, or something that makes the difference??  I know we're both hoping we have enough horsepower for the dead of winter.

I appreciate your understanding on my previous post.  I couldn't sleep, but wasn't awake, either, and typed some stuff poorly that seemed rather rude.  It wasn't intended that way, and I'm sorry!  I was going to delete most or all of it, but I see it's been incorporated to a degree, so I just cleaned up what I could.  Some of it's probably good to throw around for the next guy to ponder.

Good to see things are going your way - you're certainly earning it!


----------



## RockyMtnGriz

gary38532 said:


> The master Bedroom is 75 but its the best room heat wize in the house always has been.


If I woke up to find that it was 75 in my bedroom, I'd probably be 2/3 of the way through 9-1-1 before I came to my senses  !
That doesn't even happen here in the summer!


----------



## RockyMtnGriz

I don't want to derail this thread, but since Gary already has some experience running this thing flat out, and all the Kuuma performance folks are gathered round, I'm going to ask:

Does anybody find the thermostat controlled high blower setting to be useful?  For me, it seems like that just causes the stove to cool too much and cycle the fan - accomplishing nothing, really.  It's still the same amount of heat per hour.


----------



## JRHAWK9

RockyMtnGriz said:


> I don't want to derail this thread, but since Gary already has some experience running this thing flat out, and all the Kuuma performance folks are gathered round, I'm going to ask:
> 
> Does anybody find the thermostat controlled high blower setting to be useful?  For me, it seems like that just causes the stove to cool too much and cycle the fan - accomplishing nothing, really.  It's still the same amount of heat per hour.



I can see it cycling in your case as you are sending some rather cool return air through it.  Back when I ran the thermostat and had it running on high speed, it wouldn't cycle in the middle of the burn.  I also had the Kuuma on high during those times too.


----------



## brenndatomu

I meant to post this the other night and forgot...might help some new Kuuma owners figure out how much to load and not have too many coals left when you need to load before going to work in the morning...or running out of wood halfway through the night...and waking up to BRR! I have seen this several times over the years, but my google-fu brought up this article tonight when I searched for this data (just to be sure I had the numbers right)








						FARM SHOW Magazine - The BEST stories about Made-It-Myself Shop Inventions, Farming and Gardening Tips, Time-saving Tricks & the Best Farm Shop Hacks, DIY Farm Projects, Tips on Boosting your farm income, time-saving farming advice, farming tractors 
					

No wood burner on the market burns cleaner than the Kuuma Vapor-Fire 100, in-house furnace, according to the manufacturer.   The hot air furnace recently tested out at 86 percent heat trans...



					www.farmshow.com
				




Computer on low, is supposed to burn 3-4 lbs per hour.
Computer on med, is supposed to burn 5-7 lbs per hour.
Computer on high, is supposed to burn 8-9 lbs per hour.


----------



## JRHAWK9

RockyMtnGriz said:


> I know there was a time a month ago, here at least, where I was surprised at how hard I was already working the Kuuma to keep up.



I guess that's not too surprising to me.  IIRC, you are also heating your DHW with it by way of a HX type coil in the plenum and live in a pretty cold climate.  Granted, you keep it way colder in your place than most of us do, so it's hard to compare, but back when you were asking about whether that HX DHW coil would work I was thinking it was going to steal quite a bit of BTU's in a climate where you may need them to heat the house.


----------



## woodey

RockyMtnGriz said:


> Does anybody find the thermostat controlled high blower setting to be useful?


Yes I find it to be useful at times. I have 16 warm air registers in a old large house I am heating. Although I seldom have all of them open I find that when the temps get below 10 it does make a difference having the high side of the blower kick in at  times.


----------



## gary38532

I always run the blower on high right now at least. I just dont seem to get enough air moment on low.


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> I meant to post this the other night and forgot...might help some new Kuuma owners figure out how much to load and not have too many coals left when you need to load before going to work in the morning...or running out of wood halfway through the night...and waking up to BRR! I have seen this several times over the years, but my google-fu brought up this article tonight when I searched for this data (just to be sure I had the numbers right)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FARM SHOW Magazine - The BEST stories about Made-It-Myself Shop Inventions, Farming and Gardening Tips, Time-saving Tricks & the Best Farm Shop Hacks, DIY Farm Projects, Tips on Boosting your farm income, time-saving farming advice, farming tractors
> 
> 
> No wood burner on the market burns cleaner than the Kuuma Vapor-Fire 100, in-house furnace, according to the manufacturer.   The hot air furnace recently tested out at 86 percent heat trans...
> 
> 
> 
> www.farmshow.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Computer on low, is supposed to burn 3-4 lbs per hour.
> Computer on med, is supposed to burn 5-7 lbs per hour.
> Computer on high, is supposed to burn 8-9 lbs per hour.


Do you weigh your wood before adding it? I've been just guessing with mediocre success....


----------



## gary38532

RockyMtnGriz said:


> If I woke up to find that it was 75 in my bedroom, I'd probably be 2/3 of the way through 9-1-1 before I came to my senses  !
> That doesn't even happen here in the summer!


Its fine for us we always liked it warm even in the summer haha


----------



## gary38532

RockyMtnGriz said:


> Good to see things are going your way - you're certainly earning it!


better and better. It's 32 outside right now 72 in the house on coals. I think before when it was 62 inside I had lots of operator error. In my defense though this new stove is nothing like what I'm use to. I think as I learn what it needs to run my house. It will be all good.


----------



## RockyMtnGriz

JRHAWK9 said:


> I guess that's not too surprising to me.  IIRC, you are also heating your DHW with it by way of a HX type coil in the plenum and live in a pretty cold climate.  Granted, you keep it way colder in your place than most of us do, so it's hard to compare, but back when you were asking about whether that HX DHW coil would work I was thinking it was going to steal quite a bit of BTU's in a climate where you may need them to heat the house.


Sadly, I think the biggest issue is the marginal heat retention properties of my house.  That's the most work to fix.  It's not terrible, but it's a big place with a tough climate.  My wife wouldn't see it this way, but a one room cabin with a nice simple roof where the snow removes itself, and a nice little stove in the middle, is not all wrong!

I'm not seeing problematic amounts of stealing from the DHW setup so far.  If you're thoughtful about usage, two adults really won't use that many BTUs of hot water.  Now, a house full of teenagers would be a different matter altogether!  That's where you need a DHW system designed TO go cold!


----------



## RockyMtnGriz

gary38532 said:


> Its fine for us we always liked it warm even in the summer haha


Lots of people agree with you, and yet strangely, Phoenix is still rather uncrowded???


----------



## gary38532

RockyMtnGriz said:


> Lots of people agree with you, and yet strangely, Phoenix is still rather uncrowded???


It's probably because it's beautiful here in the winter...


----------



## RockyMtnGriz

gary38532 said:


> It's probably because it's beautiful here in the winter...


Can't disagree with that!  Guessing peaceful too!


----------



## sloeffle

Our of curiosity, how many square feet are you heating @gary38532 ?


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> Do you weigh your wood before adding it? I've been just guessing with mediocre success....


Yeah, I started out just doing it sometimes, after reading @JRHAWK9  ramblings about it, but then this year I decided to do every load...curious what I burn in a year, exactly.
It does help you load more accurately for the weather conditions...I find I'm often off when I guesstimate weight...and going buy volume is a _complete_ crap-shoot, depending on what species you are burning.


----------



## gary38532

sloeffle said:


> Our of curiosity, how many square feet are you heating @gary38532 ?


2800


----------



## gary38532

I haven't really messed around with the new camera much yet but I took this just now.  It looks like that roof isn't as bad as I thought maybe? The red on top is the ridge cap and the other red section is where the garage meets the living room. I would love to hear what everyone thinks! Thank you


----------



## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> I haven't really messed around with the new camera much yet but I took this just now.  It looks like that roof isn't as bad as I thought maybe? The red on top is the ridge cap and the other red section is where the garage meets the living room. I would love to hear what everyone thinks! Thank you



I dunno, it doesn't look good, IMO.   Have you messed around anymore with it?

What model Seek camera do you have?


----------



## gary38532

I talked with Dale from Lamppa  today about it. He said the VF100 max output is about 125k BTU. My old Clayton according to the web was 160k so maybe that's why I'm having so much problems.  I have a company coming Tuesday to audit the house. I might just add a wood stove upstairs that should double my BTU's and put me higher then where I was with the old Clayton. I need to do something fast though it was only 64 in the house this morning and it was 20 outside so  when it gets to 0 I'm going to be in real trouble. 
I did look around the house more and found lots of leaks around outlets and doors which I all ready fixed. The windows around the whole house seem to look the same as the one I posted. Leaks in the attic too that I'm planing to address tomorrow. That should be easy I plan to just add insulation to all the cold spots. I'm thinking my best bet is just to get another stove. By the time I pay for all the added insulation I don't think I will be really be ahead money wise. With the VF100 mixing the air and the second  burner upstairs making more heat I'm hoping everything will be warm.
Amazon product
That is the link to the Seek I got.
I know I'm rambling here but I also noticed that I only really get a two degree gain in the house regardless of computer setting high or med.
High does the same in the house as Med is my point. I'm not really sure what to make of that. I can tell the stove is alot hotter on high just by standing by it.


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> I might just add a wood stove upstairs


That's the setup I have...it works _really_ well! Although since installing the VF100, I have not had to run the stove for "extra heat" reasons...more just for ambiance, or just plain ole watching fire TV...I really miss the window in the door of my old Tundra furnace. But when I had the Tundra, and the weather got particularly nasty cold, firing up the stove (Drolet 1400i insert stove) along with the furnace meant neither one had to run any harder than normal, and the house was the same temp (or warmer) as with more average weather.


gary38532 said:


> Leaks in the attic too that I'm planing to address tomorrow. That should be easy I plan to just add insulation to all the cold spots.


Keep in mind that air sealing means as much, sometimes more, than just insulation.


gary38532 said:


> By the time I pay for all the added insulation I don't think I will be really be ahead money wise


Again, keep in mind, insulation/air sealing pays you back 27/7/365...no better heating/cooling investment can be made.


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Again, keep in mind, insulation pays you back 27/7/365...no better heating/cooling investment can be made.


Very True but for what I got in mind we are talking big bucks. I'll just have to wait and see what they say. Meanwhile I'm paying for electric heat In the rooms we are sleeping in.


----------



## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> I talked with Dale from Lamppa  today about it. He said the VF100 max output is about 125k BTU.



I think Daryl would disagree.  They are actually advertised as being a lot less than that.....<50,000BTU's/HR.  The rating you mentioned seems to be a lot like the super exaggerated ones found by other manufacturers prior to them doing the certification tests.  They then magically dropped like a rock.


----------



## brenndatomu

Maybe he meant that it would do the same job as a typical 125K BTU fossil fuel furnace?


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> I think Daryl would disagree.  They are actually advertised as being a lot less than that.....<50,000BTU's/HR.  The rating you mentioned seems to be a lot like the super exaggerated ones found by other manufacturers prior to them doing the certification tests.  They then magically dropped like a rock.


No, I think hes spot on. Mine has special modes made to it to get more out that they told me to do.


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> Maybe he meant that it would do the same job as a typical 125K BTU fossil fuel furnace?



OK, true, I guess that could be.


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> OK, true, I guess that could be.


no


----------



## gary38532

that's not what he said but if that is the case that means Im way under


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> that's not what he said but if that is the case that means Im way under


That's way more than any printed numbers that I ever remember seeing for the VF100...


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> That's way more than any printed numbers that I ever remember seeing for the VF100...


Like I said they had me make changes that I dont think they want me talking about on here so this is where im going to stop. Mines burning hotter then everyone else's.


----------



## brenndatomu

@JRHAWK9  and I have a pretty good idea what they had you do...with that tiny screwdriver  
But yeah, probably not common knowledge.
I don't think anybody is cranking more BTUs out of their VF100 than what JR is getting out of the SpaceHawk100 ©


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> @JRHAWK9  and I have a pretty good idea what they had you do...with that tiny screwdriver
> But yeah, probably not common knowledge.
> I don't think anybody is cranking more BTUs out of their VF100 than what JR is getting out of the SpaceHawk100 ©


ok so maybe hes wrong but that just means Im worst off then I thought


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> @JRHAWK9  and I have a pretty good idea what they had you do...with that tiny screwdriver
> But yeah, probably not common knowledge.
> I don't think anybody is cranking more BTUs out of their VF100 than what JR is getting out of the SpaceHawk100 ©



   I know nuttin'....no idea what you are talkin' 'bout Willis.  




gary38532 said:


> ok so maybe hes wrong but that just means Im worst off then I thought



The 160K rating of your old furnace was more than likely over exaggerated.  The documented rating of the VF100 is actually more on the pessimistic side while the 160K rating on the Yukon was probably way more the optimistic side.


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> I know nuttin'....no idea what you are talkin' 'bout Willis.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 160K rating of your old furnace was more than likely over exaggerated.  The documented rating of the VF100 is actually more on the pessimistic side while the 160K rating on the Yukon was probably way more the optimistic side.


either way im going to need another stove then. I got about 100k I have to make up for.


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> The 160K rating of your old furnace was more than likely over exaggerated. The documented rating of the VF100 is actually more on the pessimistic side while the 160K rating on the Yukon was probably way more the optimistic side.


I was the one with the Yukon...and it was rated for 112K net...and it was a monster! So yeah, 160 on that Clayton is probably a bit high...and the gross rating too. Got to remember, these old beasts used 8" chimneys...so capable of blowing a buttload of BTUs up the stack!


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> I was the one with the Yukon...and it was rated for 112K net...and it was a monster! So yeah, 160 on that Clayton is probably a bit high...and the gross rating too. Got to remember, these old beasts used 8" chimneys...so capable of blowing a buttload of BTUs up the stack!


Alot of it was going up the stack! My house was very warm then! I need that extra 100k no doubt


----------



## gary38532

https://www.regency-fire.com/en/Products/Wood/Wood-Stoves/F3500 

5500 for that stove installed in my living room not sure if im going to do it or not at this point
that would mean I would have 11k worth of wood stoves in the house. Prob still be cold.


----------



## brenndatomu

$5500...wow, I hope that is with a new chimney installed!


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> $5500...wow, I hope that is with a new chimney installed!


yes with a new chimney


----------



## gary38532

it would double my available btu


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> it would double my available btu


Really? What size firebox is that (guess I shoulda looked it up, huh?!   )
Unless that is a *monster* of a stove, sounds like someone is stretching the numbers.
Keep in mind that the VF100 has a 4.1 CF firebox, and a pretty elaborate heat exchanger (compared to a stove) so I'd say it would take a HUGE free standing stove to equal the VF100 heat output...and the biggest stoves out there still use a 8" chimney too.
Of course when thinking about it a bit more...you are comparing convective heat and direct radiant heat...and that's hard to compare really...


----------



## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> it would double my available btu



Be very careful of believing manufactures rated BTU's, unless you can find the EPA test report.


----------



## brenndatomu

I'm sorry...I'm just having trouble taking you seriously with that new avatar pic!


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> I'm sorry...I'm just having trouble taking you seriously with that new avatar pic!


Agreed


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> I'm sorry...I'm just having trouble taking you seriously with that new avatar pic!



What, you don't like my new glamour shot?


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Really? What size firebox is that (guess I shoulda looked it up, huh?!   )
> Unless that is a *monster* of a stove, sounds like someone is stretching the numbers.
> Keep in mind that the VF100 has a 4.1 CF firebox, and a pretty elaborate heat exchanger (compared to a stove) so I'd say it would take a HUGE free standing stove to equal the VF100 heat output...and the biggest stoves out there still use a 8" chimney too.
> Of course when thinking about it a bit more...you are comparing convective heat and direct radiant heat...and that's hard to compare really...


Same size firebox as the vf100 according to the spec sheet


----------



## brenndatomu

I had to look for myself...from the brochure it is 3.0 CF, 25% smaller...


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> I had to look for myself...from the brochure it is 3.0 CF, 25% smaller...
> View attachment 253505


Oh yes sorry I was looking at the bigger one


----------



## brenndatomu

But either way, it is still a large stove...and the two together should be able to have y'all walking around in your skivvies on even the coldest day of the year!   
If not, you have some _serious_ insulation/air sealing problems! (like you need to close the door to the attic or something!)


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> Oh yes sorry I was looking at the bigger one


Ah, yes, the F5200...wow, it is a monster! And does use a 8" chimney! No wonder the price!


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Ah, yes, the F5200...wow, it is a monster! And does use a 8" chimney! No wonder the price!


Maybe I should go with the biggest one just in case?


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> Maybe I should go with the biggest one just in case?


Which one was the quote for?
Honestly, unless your blower door test shows some really glaring issues, I bet the F3500 would fit the bill better.
The stove we have in the fireplace is a Drolet 1400i (1.7 CF) and when we still had the Tundra furnace the 1400i was more than enough to put us over the hump when it was "polar vortexing" outside. The Tundra was 3.5 CF and did fine with our 2400 sq ft (1200 basement, 1200 main floor) until it got really cold. Then at that point, running the Tundra, and the 1400i together (just "average" load sizes) would run the house temp up to, or usually above our typically indoor setpoint. So the stove is only about half the size of the Tundra 1.7 vs 3.5...I guess where I'm going is that with the VF100 at 4.1, and the F5200 at 4.4, seems a bit like shooting flies with a bazooka.
Keep in mind too...we went from heating basically 2400 sq ft (I know the basement "doesn't really count") with the Tundra at 3.5 CF and couldn't quite keep up on the worst days, to heating more like 3000 sq ft (added the upper floor of our cape cod style) with the VF100's 4.1 CF and it will keep up on its own...heck, never even had it on high yet (this is the second winter with it)
My point is, a little extra firepower (CF) goes a long ways.

One other thing is that with a stove you have to be able to move the heat around...so unless you feel like your house is open enough to heat the other areas pretty well, the room the stove is in will be about 95, while the other end of the house is 65. Our place is somewhat in the middle as far as moving the heat from the stove...better than a ranch, but not as wide open as a cabin (its the typical center stairwell cape cod type floorplan)...just something to factor in to your decison...


----------



## sloeffle

gary38532 said:


> https://www.regency-fire.com/en/Products/Wood/Wood-Stoves/F3500
> 
> 5500 for that stove installed in my living room not sure if im going to do it or not at this point
> that would mean I would have 11k worth of wood stoves in the house. Prob still be cold.


Personally, I’d be spending the money on air sealing and insulation.  Insulation is a one shot deal and as @brenndatomu said, your ROI is 24x7x365. Feeding another stove is not.


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> One other thing is that with a stove you have to be able to move the heat around...


I'm hoping the vf100 will move it around the house.


----------



## gary38532

sloeffle said:


> Personally, I’d be spending the money on air sealing and insulation.  Insulation is a one shot deal and as @brenndatomu said, your ROI is 24x7x365. Feeding another stove is not.


I'm going to insulate too


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Which one was the quote for?


the 3500


----------



## Highbeam

The 5200 always was a big 8” flue cat stove. Previously named the 5100. 8” flue is outdated and almost obsolete. From experience you must see the potential mistake you’d be making by installing an oversized chimney. Stick to 6” chimney and stoves. If you must use 8”, I would recommend a bk king. 

The 3500 never had a cat. It’s a bandaid for 2020 emissions and I would not want such a new model stove.

You are looking at buying a stove at the worst possible time. The new 2020 rated stoves are very often new and experimental. I would recommend one of the pre2020 stoves really soon before the deadline or a stove that has not been reinvented to pass the 2020 ratings.

PE stoves are strong contenders for a regular noncat stove. BK or Woodstock for cat stoves are mostly unchanged.


----------



## brenndatomu

So how'd the time in the attic go @gary38532 ?


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> So how'd the time in the attic go @gary38532 ?


I added about one pack of r30 to mainly the hallway area. I also replaced the door seal around the basement door. The top piece wasnt even there.  I have 4 small windows in the basement that are only single plane. I might put insulation over all of them. My plenum temp tonight is 92 fan speed high with the computer on med at c. Its 32 outside and 71 inside. Thursday is forecast to be 10 so it might be a rough day to say the least.  I would turn the stove up to high but it doesn't really change the temp upstairs and it just burns up my wood faster.


----------



## SpaceBus

gary38532 said:


> https://www.regency-fire.com/en/Products/Wood/Wood-Stoves/F3500
> 
> 5500 for that stove installed in my living room not sure if im going to do it or not at this point
> that would mean I would have 11k worth of wood stoves in the house. Prob still be cold.



We have two wood stoves on the same floor, in the same room almost. The house has an open first floor with about 600 sqft and maybe 500 sqft upstairs. Stove number one is a small Morso wood stove that can heat the whole house. Number two is a cookstove with a DHW coil that puts out maybe 10K BTU max into the house (it would take far too much wood to use it as primary heat!). I would not want to deal with running two stoves to heat the house full time, but a few folks on here do it. We have at least $12k (closer to $15k actual) invested into both stoves, one class A exterior chimney, and a liner for the interior 8" masonry chimney (waiting to be installed), the plumbing, and an on demand electric water heater. If I were in your shoes insulation would be my primary concern. If you still can't heat the house after a thorough job insulating the house I would put in a cookstove, but that's not for everyone. 

Last winter was our first winter in the house and with the Morso. The insulation was disgusting R19 fiberglass full of water, mouse tunnels, and feces. On nights I was too lazy to get up the electric baseboard heaters kicked in. We recently had an overnight low in the teens and the house was nice and toasty all night with just the Morso loaded up with Birch. We have gotten about 3/4 of the first floor reinsulated with R23 Rockwool. The R19 upstairs doesn't seem to be in as rough shape, but it is noticeably inferior to the rockwool. I would find it hard to believe you would be unable to heat your house with the VF100 if you properly update the insulation.


----------



## gary38532

Highbeam said:


> The 5200 always was a big 8” flue cat stove. Previously named the 5100. 8” flue is outdated and almost obsolete. From experience you must see the potential mistake you’d be making by installing an oversized chimney. Stick to 6” chimney and stoves. If you must use 8”, I would recommend a bk king.
> 
> The 3500 never had a cat. It’s a bandaid for 2020 emissions and I would not want such a new model stove.
> 
> You are looking at buying a stove at the worst possible time. The new 2020 rated stoves are very often new and experimental. I would recommend one of the pre2020 stoves really soon before the deadline or a stove that has not been reinvented to pass the 2020 ratings.
> 
> PE stoves are strong contenders for a regular noncat stove. BK or Woodstock for cat stoves are mostly unchanged.


I bought a little old stove about 2 years ago that I never installed its over my parents house. I might use that, I'm working on getting the model number. I don't remember what it was.


----------



## gary38532

SpaceBus said:


> We have two wood stoves on the same floor, in the same room almost. The house has an open first floor with about 600 sqft and maybe 500 sqft upstairs. Stove number one is a small Morso wood stove that can heat the whole house. Number two is a cookstove with a DHW coil that puts out maybe 10K BTU max into the house (it would take far too much wood to use it as primary heat!). I would not want to deal with running two stoves to heat the house full time, but a few folks on here do it. We have at least $12k (closer to $15k actual) invested into both stoves, one class A exterior chimney, and a liner for the interior 8" masonry chimney (waiting to be installed), the plumbing, and an on demand electric water heater. If I were in your shoes insulation would be my primary concern. If you still can't heat the house after a thorough job insulating the house I would put in a cookstove, but that's not for everyone.
> 
> Last winter was our first winter in the house and with the Morso. The insulation was disgusting R19 fiberglass full of water, mouse tunnels, and feces. On nights I was too lazy to get up the electric baseboard heaters kicked in. We recently had an overnight low in the teens and the house was nice and toasty all night with just the Morso loaded up with Birch. We have gotten about 3/4 of the first floor reinsulated with R23 Rockwool. The R19 upstairs doesn't seem to be in as rough shape, but it is noticeably inferior to the rockwool. I would find it hard to believe you would be unable to heat your house with the VF100 if you properly update the insulation.


Thats funny you say that my whole addition is R19 and its hard to heat. Problem is I dont know how to fix it without gutting the rooms.


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> My plenum temp tonight is 92 fan speed high with the computer on med at c


You might try letting the blower go back to low again at some point...sounds like you have already made a bunch of improvements to the house, and I personally haven't heard of anyone having to leave the blower on high full time...at some point you will have tightened things up enough to let the VF work "normally"...


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> You might try letting the blower go back to low again at some point...sounds like you have already made a bunch of improvements to the house, and I personally haven't heard of anyone having to leave the blower on high full time...at some point you will have tightened things up enough to let the VF work "normally"...


it went to low for a little while today but it has to be pretty warm outside. Its rare for it to be on low. I ran the fan on high on the Clayton too.


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> it went to low for a little while today but it has to be pretty warm outside. Its rare for it to be on low. I ran the fan on high on the Clayton too.


So the thermostat was satisfied, and it went to low?


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> So the thermostat was satisfied, and it went to low?


yeah it was set to 73 but it was warm out today about 38


----------



## gary38532

Hey guys I got around to getting the name of that little stove I bought and never used. It's a Avalon 996 older but in really good shape if you ask me. It's not very big but maybe between the vf100 and the Avalon it won't matter? Eitherway it's here and not being used. It would save me the cost of another burner.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Here's some threads on this site about that stove.  Like was mentioned earlier, if doing a new chimney, I'd do a 6" and hope that stove functions OK with it.  This allows for you to add a more modern stove down the road. 




			Avalon 996 site:www.hearth.com - Google Search


----------



## gary38532

Ok but I think it is a 6in flue opening to start with. Ill have to check


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> Hey guys I got around to getting the name of that little stove I bought and never used. It's a Avalon 996 older but in really good shape if you ask me. It's not very big but maybe between the vf100 and the Avalon it won't matter? Eitherway it's here and not being used. It would save me the cost of another burner.


That's a 1.7 CF stove, so not huge, but I bet you will be surprised how much it will help put you over the hump with your heat demand.
Install a 6" chimney, use a doublewall telescoping stove pipe to connect, that way if you do decide to upgrade at some point, pop the pipe off and it will easily reconnect to the new stove, no matter the height (assuming you go straight up through the ceiling with the chimney) should take no time flat to switch out the stove then.


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> assuming you go straight up through the ceiling with the chimney.


yeah that was the plan


----------



## SpaceBus

I think after you price out the Class A and accessories the insulation and related tasks will seem like a better idea.


----------



## gary38532

SpaceBus said:


> I think after you price out the Class A and accessories the insulation and related tasks will seem like a better idea.


Im stilling waiting for them to come look at the house. They are suppose to come tomorrow but I doubt it due to a ice storm that's is starting tonight. It may take me a long time to get the house up to par for the VF100. Im looking to band aid it untill that happens so we dont have to spend the  whole winter cold. I always wanted a fire in the living room anyway thats why I bought the stove to start with. It just never got installed cause it was always warm anyway with the clayton and I was spending money on other things for the house.


----------



## JRHAWK9

I may have missed it, but what part of PA are you in....near what city?


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> I may have missed it, but what part of PA are you in....near what city?


Binghamton New York is a hour drive north from here


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> I may have missed it, but what part of PA are you in....near what city?





gary38532 said:


> Binghamton New York is a hour drive north from here


Unless I miss my guess... @JRHAWK9  is trying to look up a HDD (heat degree day) chart for your local area...


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> I may have missed it, but what part of PA are you in....near what city?


Binghamton ny


brenndatomu said:


> Unless I miss my guess... @JRHAWK9  is trying to look up a HDD (heat degree day) chart for your local area...


Idk what that is


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> Unless I miss my guess... @JRHAWK9  is trying to look up a HDD (heat degree day) chart for your local area...



 
I appear to have shared way too much of my info....you now know what I'm going to be doing before I do.


----------



## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> Idk what that is



HDD's...

Use:
KBGM: BINGHAMTON REGIONAL AIRPORT, NY, US (75.98W,42.21N) 






						Heating & Cooling Degree Days – Free Worldwide Data Calculation
					

Heating degree days and cooling degree days for thousands of locations worldwide.  Download free data in a simple spreadsheet format.



					www.degreedays.net


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> HDD's...
> 
> Use:
> KBGM: BINGHAMTON REGIONAL AIRPORT, NY, US (75.98W,42.21N)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heating & Cooling Degree Days – Free Worldwide Data Calculation
> 
> 
> Heating degree days and cooling degree days for thousands of locations worldwide.  Download free data in a simple spreadsheet format.
> 
> 
> 
> www.degreedays.net


Ok


----------



## SpaceBus

gary38532 said:


> Im stilling waiting for them to come look at the house. They are suppose to come tomorrow but I doubt it due to a ice storm that's is starting tonight. It may take me a long time to get the house up to par for the VF100. Im looking to band aid it untill that happens so we dont have to spend the  whole winter cold. I always wanted a fire in the living room anyway thats why I bought the stove to start with. It just never got installed cause it was always warm anyway with the clayton and I was spending money on other things for the house.



No doubt having a fire in the living space is awesome. I like it so much I can see two from one seat. The avalon looks like it has a decent fire view, so you should be pleased. I bet if you charge the house with heat when you go to bed the house will still be warm when you get up. Perhaps you will only need to fire the free standing stove once a day. We light the cooker two or three times a day and the Morso once or twice depending on temp.


----------



## gary38532

The insulation guys just left and said there is not much they can really do to make it any much better. They said the best they could do was to inject all the walls in the home for about 10k but he said after you spend that and fix the drywall he said it wont have any "wow" differences. He said in his opinion the furnace is just under powered for the home.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Personally, I would be more concerned with air sealing and sealing/insulating the roof areas....as heat rises and may be the best "bang for the buck".  Having said that, you may be in the same situation I am in when it comes to insulating the roof areas.  Seeing ours is a log cabin type home w/ loft, we don't have an attic.  So we only have maybe 15" - 18" separating the outside metal roof to the heating envelope inside.  It's a 12/12 pitch roof as well.  We are losing lots of our heat at the peak along the ridge vent.  Snow/ice/frost does not last or even form is this area.  Nothing we can really do now which won't cost big $$$.   We would have to remove all the tongue and groove wood on the ceiling and then inject expandable foam in between all the joists and  then reinstall all the wood....or remove the metal roofing and do something that way.


----------



## gary38532

Im geting the 3500 put in the living room


----------



## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> Im geting the 3500 put in the living room



Then that will still leave you the option of installing a third stove (the older Avalon you have) if those two together don't end up cutting it.


----------



## gary38532

yeah! lol


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> So we only have maybe 15" - 18" separating the outside metal roof to the heating envelope inside.


You think its that much? If its like the cabins I'm familiar with, I'd bet its under 12"...closer to 8" total...


----------



## sloeffle

When you bought the furnace from Lampa, did they say it would be able to heat 2800 sq ft in your heating zone ? @JRHAWK9 or @brenndatomu please correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't that be at the high end of what a Kuuma could handle ?

I think the Caddy and Kuuma are "similar" in size. I'm heating a smaller house that has pretty good insulation and I have less HDD's than you do and there is no way it would be able to heat 2800 sq ft with temps below 20 - 25F.  When temps are below 10F or so my Caddy can keep the house at 70 - 73F but I need to check it more often and usually have to fill it on a pretty healthy coal bed.


----------



## brenndatomu

sloeffle said:


> hen you bought the furnace from Lampa, did they say it would be able to heat 2800 sq ft in your heating zone ?


They state "up to" 3500 sq ft...under the right circumstances (location, insulation level, etc)


----------



## gary38532

When I bought it I sent them photos of my older one and they said they thought it would work well in the house.


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> They state "up to" 3500 sq ft...under the right circumstances (location, insulation level, etc)


Maybe its my ranch being so spreed out. Its long 70 foot house.


----------



## gary38532

sloeffle said:


> When you bought the furnace from Lampa, did they say it would be able to heat 2800 sq ft in your heating zone ? @JRHAWK9 or @brenndatomu please correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't that be at the high end of what a Kuuma could handle ?
> 
> I think the Caddy and Kuuma are "similar" in size. I'm heating a smaller house that has pretty good insulation and I have less HDD's than you do and there is no way it would be able to heat 2800 sq ft with temps below 20 - 25F.  When temps are below 10F or so my Caddy can keep the house at 70 - 73F but I need to check it more often and usually have to fill it on a pretty healthy coal bed.


my Kuuma can barely hit 70 when its 30 outside


----------



## brenndatomu

sloeffle said:


> I think the Caddy and Kuuma are "similar" in size.


Caddy 3.5 ft, VF100 4.1  ft,...IIRC...


----------



## sloeffle

brenndatomu said:


> Caddy 3.5 ft, VF100 4.1  ft,...IIRC...


Ahhh, so it is bigger than the Caddy but not as big as the Max. The Max looks to be 4.9 cu ft.


----------



## Woodman1

I have to jump in here and give my opinion. First I will admit I have not read every post of this thread, but enough I think. That said my first thought is STOP, take a step back and breath. Don't make a hasty decision at this point of the heating season. Second, I don't know what your schedule is but do you really want/can tend to 2 wood burning appliances. Not only now, but 5 years from now also? Third, you may be surprised how little it would take to supplement the kuma on those rare design days with electric/fossil fuels(I don't know what your primary furnace/boiler is)

Unless your house is beyond 5k square feet there is no reason it could not be insulated/sealed to average 30k btu per hour. Money would be way better spend on sealing up the envelope. 

It's your house and your money so do whatever you want, but I would cation you to fix the problem and not just bandaid the issue. I think the Kuma is an excellent modern wood furnace that should/can work on its own within practical limits. Could it heat an unisulated pole barn? Probably not.


----------



## brenndatomu

The other think is that when dealing with cathedral ceilings, you have to consider cubic ft too, not just sq ft.
JRHawk and I have similar sized houses, but he has cathedral ceilings, I don't...between that, and less HDD here, I don't have to run mine as hard as he does.


----------



## brenndatomu

Woodman1 said:


> Third, you may be surprised how little it would take to supplement the kuma on those rare design days with electric/fossil fuels(I don't know what your primary furnace/boiler is)


That's true...we do tend to get hung up on "100% wood heat"...and the truth is that even if you have to supplement with fossil fuel, the wood is still shouldering 90% (for example) of the load...


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> Maybe its my ranch being so spreed out. Its long 70 foot house.


That doesnt help at all...and where is the Kuuma placed in that 70'? Middle? 
Heat loss to the ducts can be significant, especially if they run through cooler (or even worse, unheated) spaces...that can make a bunch of heat just "magically disappear" in a hurry!


----------



## gary38532

Woodman1 said:


> I have to jump in here and give my opinion. First I will admit I have not read every post of this thread, but enough I think. That said my first thought is STOP, take a step back and breath. Don't make a hasty decision at this point of the heating season. Second, I don't know what your schedule is but do you really want/can tend to 2 wood burning appliances. Not only now, but 5 years from now also? Third, you may be surprised how little it would take to supplement the kuma on those rare design days with electric/fossil fuels(I don't know what your primary furnace/boiler is)
> 
> Unless your house is beyond 5k square feet there is no reason it could not be insulated/sealed to average 30k btu per hour. Money would be way better spend on sealing up the envelope.
> 
> It's your house and your money so do whatever you want, but I would cation you to fix the problem and not just bandaid the issue. I think the Kuma is an excellent modern wood furnace that should/can work on its own within practical limits. Could it heat an unisulated pole barn? Probably not.


This is just all wrong... The insulation company just said it was insulated good. They left maybe a hour ago. RARE days? its barely heating in 30. Im not sure where I can seal the house up any better at this point? I did all the outlets, light switch, attic doorways, added insulation to the attic, all the doors in the house have new seals.  Take a step back and breath? Ive been working on this for months and made very little gain.


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> You think its that much? If its like the cabins I'm familiar with, I'd bet its under 12"...closer to 8" total...



I guess I don't really know for sure, I was just guessing.


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> That doesnt help at all...and where is the Kuuma placed in that 70'? Middle?
> Heat loss to the ducts can be significant, especially if they run through cooler (or even worse, unheated) spaces...that can make a bunch of heat just "magically disappear" in a hurry!


There all in the basement and yes its in the middle


----------



## laynes69

An insulation audit doesn't mean anything. Yes, insulation is important, but just as if not more is the ACH (air changes per hour). A blower door test should be done and can be calibrated to give you an exact air exchange rate, and while that is being done, thermal imaging. I know that r19 fiberglass is poo pood, but we had a 2 story addition put on the house and I've done major remodeling (gut, electrical, airsealing, vaporbarrier and drywall). Our kitchen had r19 in the walls (remodeled in the 90's by dad). The other rooms that I've remodeled have r19 in the walls. The kitchen is the coldest room in the house while the rooms I've done and addition are the warmest. The difference, I've  meticulously airsealed the walls before insulating.  The walls I've done even below zero are warm to the touch. It's all on how its installed. If the walls are insulated then look at ways to seal up gaps and cracks.


----------



## brenndatomu

And that reminds me...if having a blower door test done, I've heard it is best to have it done with both putting a negative, and a positive pressure on the house...they can reveal totally different leaks sometimes...


----------



## gary38532

I think I understand way people give up on them now.


----------



## brenndatomu

On who?


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> On who?


The VF100


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> The other think is that when dealing with cathedral ceilings, you have to consider cubic ft too, not just sq ft.
> JRHawk and I have similar sized houses, but he has cathedral ceilings, I don't...between that, and less HDD here, I don't have to run mine as hard as he does.



yep, not only cathedral, but a pretty tall peak (25' I believe) seeing it's a 12/12 pitch roof.  Although I only run it harder when it gets below zero for extended periods of time, as that's when this house becomes harder to heat   Back when we had that 7 day stretch last January of 70 - 84 HDD's I was burning as much wood as fast as I possibly could with it.  I do load on more coals and increase loading size when it gets around 20° or so, but I still leave it on minimum burn.  About 20° daily average (~45 HDD's) is about when I can keep it on minimum burn and start to leave a healthy fire going 24/7 and load on, what I consider, a perfect amount of coals so the Kuuma goes back to pilot relatively quickly.  In temps over 25°-30° or so I can't do that, the house will get too warm.  I weathered a couple single digit night lows in a row a couple weeks ago with leaving it on low.  The point where I need it to consume wood faster so I can load more wood is when I take the Kuuma off low.  Hasn't happened this year yet though, except those few times when I previously loaded too much and needed to load again (to leave for work or go to bed) and needed to burn the coals down in order to do so.

Like I've mentioned before though, before my cold/warm air supply tweaks, the house did not heat as easy as it does now, at least in temps above 10° or so.


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> That doesnt help at all...and where is the Kuuma placed in that 70'? Middle?
> Heat loss to the ducts can be significant, especially if they run through cooler (or even worse, unheated) spaces...that can make a bunch of heat just "magically disappear" in a hurry!



That's another strike we have here.  The Kuuma is on the -very- north end of the house, luckily the house has a 32'x42' footprint, so it's probably not too big of an issue.


----------



## SpaceBus

There is clearly something happening that is not being factored into the equation. My has no insulation in two corner bays, most of the band joist on the first floor, and four sliding glass doors but I can keep it warm with a 31k btu (definitely not into the house) wood cookstove once the house is up to 70df with temps in the 20's outside with wind. At night the 35k btu  (Edit: this is peak, nominal is more like 27k BTU) Morso 2b classic can do the job on soft woods with temps above 20df. Any colder and I load it up with birch if I don't want to wake up and feed it. I brought in a wheel barrow of several years aged hard maple for the upcoming cold front, but that should last me weeks.


----------



## JRHAWK9

sloeffle said:


> When you bought the furnace from Lampa, did they say it would be able to heat 2800 sq ft in your heating zone ? @JRHAWK9 or @brenndatomu please correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't that be at the high end of what a Kuuma could handle ?
> 
> I think the Caddy and Kuuma are "similar" in size. I'm heating a smaller house that has pretty good insulation and I have less HDD's than you do and there is no way it would be able to heat 2800 sq ft with temps below 20 - 25F.  When temps are below 10F or so my Caddy can keep the house at 70 - 73F but I need to check it more often and usually have to fill it on a pretty healthy coal bed.




I believe Daryl (the owner) has a 30 year old Kuuma heating his personal home way up in N MN where it's always COLD.  I believe he's heating ~3,000SF (IIRC) and he told me he hardly has to take it off low.  He admits though, his house is sealed and insulated very well.


----------



## moresnow

SpaceBus said:


> I brought in a wheel barrow of several years aged hard maple for the upcoming cold front, but that should last me weeks.



Damn Talk about efficient! One wheel barrow.  Weeks?  Holy smokes


----------



## Woodman1

I am telling you there is no way a 2800 sq foot house could use more than 100k btu per hour unless you have the equivalent of a window open. I think there is something very basic being missed here and I am just trying to save you from a costly mistake. Think about it, what was the efficiency of the Clayton? 50% And it took 9 cords to heat. That sounds more like a mid 20k btu average over 180 heating days


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> I think I understand way people give up on them now.





brenndatomu said:


> On who?





gary38532 said:


> The VF100


I've only ever personally heard of 2 people "giving up on them"...and they both openly admitted that they had big ole leaky houses and just didnt do their homework on what it was gonna take BTU wise to heat the place...the one went to a OWB then, the other back to gas (I think)


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> I believe Daryl (the owner) has a 30 year old Kuuma heating his personal home way up in N MN where it's always COLD.  I believe he's heating ~3,000SF (IIRC) and he told me he hardly has to take it off low.  He admits though, his house is sealed and insulated very well.


Yeah, they are up there where they are lucky to have the ice all melted by Memorial day, and to be able to swim by the 4th of July!


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> I've only ever personally heard of 2 people "giving up on them"...and they both openly admitted that they had big ole leaky houses and just didnt do their homework on what it was gonna take BTU wise to heat the place...the one went to a OWB then, the other back to gas (I think)



Yep, it's hard for anybody to know a heatload when the house owner doesn't know it.




Woodman1 said:


> I think there is something very basic being missed here and I am just trying to save you from a costly mistake.



I've always wondered if it's a return air issue.  When I played around years ago and disturbed my return air to the furnace, it made a HUGE difference in the ability of the Kuuma to heat the house.


----------



## SpaceBus

moresnow said:


> Damn Talk about efficient! One wheel barrow.  Weeks?  Holy smokes


I was a bit vague there, I should have specified the one wheel barrow of maple should last two weeks only burning it at night. I burn about a half cord a month (85% spruce and fir) cooking and heating. Sometimes on heavy cooking days I have to crack a window if it's not too cold. On a day above 40 df I won't light the Morso at all. I don't usually burn hard woods in the cooker, they take longer to burn and it's usually a waste.


----------



## JRHAWK9

JRHAWK9 said:


> About 20° daily average (~45 HDD's) is about when I can keep it on minimum burn and start to leave a healthy fire going 24/7 and load on, what I consider, a perfect amount of coals so the Kuuma goes back to pilot relatively quickly.  In temps over 25°-30° or so I can't do that, the house will get too warm.



Case in point....low last night of 15° and a high today of 25°  and cloudy (45 HDD).....Kuuma is about 2.5 hours from being re-loaded.


----------



## moresnow

JRHAWK9 said:


> I've always wondered if it's a return air issue. When I played around years ago and disturbed my return air to the furnace, it made a HUGE difference in the ability of the Kuuma to heat the house.



Elaborate on the "disturbed" return air please! 
Are you guys using warmed upstairs return air? Or cold basement floor air?


----------



## maple1

gary38532 said:


> The insulation guys just left and said there is not much they can really do to make it any much better. They said the best they could do was to inject all the walls in the home for about 10k but he said after you spend that and fix the drywall he said it wont have any "wow" differences. He said in his opinion the furnace is just under powered for the home.



Sounds like no blower door test or no thermal imaging? They just looked and did a visual assessment?

I think I would term it more like, too much heat loss that is overpowering the furnace. Looking back at just the quick IR pic you posted a couple pages back, I think I see lots of heat signature. If you had a qualified auditor available who could do a blower test or proper imaging, I think that would tell the tale. But maybe you don't?


----------



## gary38532

maple1 said:


> Sounds like no blower door test or no thermal imaging? They just looked and did a visual assessment?
> 
> I think I would term it more like, too much heat loss that is overpowering the furnace. Looking back at just the quick IR pic you posted a couple pages back, I think I see lots of heat signature. If you had a qualified auditor available who could do a blower test or proper imaging, I think that would tell the tale. But maybe you don't?


no I all ready looked into it no one around here has even heard of a blower test.....


----------



## JRHAWK9

moresnow said:


> Elaborate on the "disturbed" return air please!
> Are you guys using warmed upstairs return air? Or cold basement floor air?



I don't have my return air hooked up to the main house duct, done for a reason.  My furnace room is in an enclosed area of the basement, so I can shut the door and have it enclosed (not completely air tight).  Back then I was pulling the cold air off the basement floor.   
Back years ago when I was experimenting with trying to warm up my return air I closed that door wanting to see what would happen overnight if I got that room heated more than it already was.  So I basically totally disrupted the natural cold air down the staircase and into the furnace room flow.  It was trying to pull air from wherever it could, which was probably mostly down the open clothes chute, which extends all the way up to the loft.  Lets just say it was not a successful experiment!


----------



## moresnow

gary38532 said:


> no I all ready looked into it no one around here has even heard of a blower test.....



Contact your local utility/power provider. If they have not heard of it..... You are really in the sticks


----------



## gary38532

Woodman1 said:


> I am telling you there is no way a 2800 sq foot house could use more than 100k btu per hour unless you have the equivalent of a window open. I think there is something very basic being missed here and I am just trying to save you from a costly mistake. Think about it, what was the efficiency of the Clayton? 50% And it took 9 cords to heat. That sounds more like a mid 20k btu average over 180 heating days


Then what is going on then? Its the same setup (minus the chimmny) the old one used...


----------



## gary38532

moresnow said:


> Contact your local utility/power provider. If they have not heard of it..... You are really in the sticks


ok! I'll call them right now


----------



## gary38532

moresnow said:


> Contact your local utility/power provider. If they have not heard of it..... You are really in the sticks


They said they dont do that kind of stuff and they dont know of anyone that does. I also asked for electric use records and they said they only keep them for the past 2 years so no help there....


----------



## SpaceBus

I don't have time to read the whole thread again, but what's the firewood situation like? The Clayton probably didn't have an opinion, but the Kuuma does.


----------



## moresnow

gary38532 said:


> They said they dont do that kind of stuff and they dont know of anyone that does. I also asked for electric use records and they said they only keep them for the past 2 years so no help there....



Wow. Hard to believe in todays energy conscious society.


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> They said they dont do that kind of stuff and they dont know of anyone that does. I also asked for electric use records and they said they only keep them for the past 2 years so no help there....


Still not sure where you are exactly...North of Scranton? But here are a couple places that can probably do a blower door test...or know someone that can...at least they will know what you are talking about anyways!   








						Blower Door Test
					

Burke Home Services tests for air leaks with blower door testing near Northeastern PA. Call or contact us today to schedule a free estimate!




					www.nepaconstructionservices.com
				











						Blower Door Test
					

Coastal Insulation tests for air leaks with blower door testing in NJ, NY, and PA. Call or contact us today to schedule a free estimate!




					www.coastalinsulationcorp.com


----------



## Woodman1

gary38532 said:


> Then what is going on then? Its the same setup (minus the chimmny) the old one used...



I would start by ruling out the obvious. Try cutting up 3 or 4 pallets and burning them to verify wood quality. These newer furnace/boilers have ZERO tolerance for anything other than perfect wood.


----------



## gary38532

Woodman1 said:


> I would start by ruling out the obvious. Try cutting up 3 or 4 pallets and burning them to verify wood quality. These newer furnace/boilers have ZERO tolerance for anything other than perfect wood.


I'm geting super long runs on small c. I was told even with one wet split you won't get long runs on c. I'm going to try something the company recommend first. I just got off the phone with them.  They are very helpful, I can testify to that.


----------



## gary38532

moresnow said:


> Wow. Hard to believe in todays energy conscious society.


I don't think you guys really understand where I live. Haha My town is made up of maybe 1000 people and thats probably on the high side. It's really nice living out here though. Well sometimes...


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> I've only ever personally heard of 2 people "giving up on them"...and they both openly admitted that they had big ole leaky houses and just didnt do their homework on what it was gonna take BTU wise to heat the place...the one went to a OWB then, the other back to gas (I think)


oh I didn't know it was that few


----------



## SpaceBus

gary38532 said:


> I don't think you guys really understand where I live. Haha My town is made up of maybe 1000 people and thats probably on the high side. It's really nice living out here though. Well sometimes...


I live in a place like this.


----------



## laynes69

I've done this and it works well with my little thermal camera. Just do a poor mans test. Grab a few box fans (if you got them) and place them in the window on high sucking out the house air. Then grab the camera and go around the house. The colder outside the better, but it works well. I've done it in single rooms too that I was buttoning up. When a blower door test is done, they simulate a 20 mph wind on the home. Anything you can do to pressurize the home will work. Hell I'm heating 2500 sqft plus 1200 sqft basement with 10' ceilings and 42 windows in a 150+ year old victorian. It's currently 23 out and my fire has been ashed over for a couple of hours now (cool enough to remove the tubes and clean the furnace) and it's still 71 in the house. Get those leaks found and sealed.


----------



## gary38532

SpaceBus said:


> I live in a place like this.


Oh cool well you can understand why I'm having so much trouble finding help then. I hope


----------



## laynes69

This is an old picture but it gives you an idea what we are heating.


----------



## gary38532

laynes69 said:


> This is an old picture but it gives you an idea what we are heating.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 253675


wow...


----------



## gary38532

This is what Im trying to heat... Minus the garage...


----------



## gary38532

laynes69 said:


> I've done this and it works well with my little thermal camera. Just do a poor mans test. Grab a few box fans (if you got them) and place them in the window on high sucking out the house air. Then grab the camera and go around the house. The colder outside the better, but it works well. I've done it in single rooms too that I was buttoning up. When a blower door test is done, they simulate a 20 mph wind on the home. Anything you can do to pressurize the home will work. Hell I'm heating 2500 sqft plus 1200 sqft basement with 10' ceilings and 42 windows in a 150+ year old victorian. It's currently 23 out and my fire has been ashed over for a couple of hours now (cool enough to remove the tubes and clean the furnace) and it's still 71 in the house. Get those leaks found and sealed.


Ill try it if this doesnt work out... I dont got much to lose at this point...


----------



## laynes69

gary38532 said:


> Ill try it if this doesnt work out... I dont got much to lose at this point...


Don't give up! When we bought this house from my parents, my dad bragged about how easy it was to heat it cause it was "well insulated." Honestly when we purchased the home I think the heat loss was easily well over 120,000 btus an hour at zero degrees. The old woodfurnace just covered it up. We froze out asses off all of the time no matter how warm the thermostat read. At  one point the house was so bad that 2-150,000 btu oils furnaces heated it (one up and down). Now I think we are around 70,000 btus at zero, or less. I want to spray foam the perimeter in the basement and I think that will take us towards the end of improvements. I also need to remove all old caulking around the windows and replace when I repaint.


----------



## gary38532

laynes69 said:


> Don't give up!


Im trying not to... But its been stressful to say the least. I was thinking about selling it all ready (the house not the stove) this afternoon. That place of yours does have crap load of windows.


----------



## laynes69

Unfortunately people judge a book by it's cover. When they see a nice house they automatically think it's tight, well built or efficient. None the less, sometimes it's the icesicles hanging off the gutters, snow missing from the roof and high heating bills that say otherwise. Over the years I've became OCD with energy and comfort. Like it's been mentioned, when things are buttoned up not only will you save in wood usage, but in comfort and cooling in the summertime. Many times people don't understand when it comes to home improvements the important steps to ensure a comfortable home.  Something that only takes a few dollars up front will save thousands over the life of the home. I've went though a few homes with my camera and found some very troubling spots that were eating them alive in energy. I also knew a few people with 1500 sq ft homes with their gas bill hitting 600 a month.


----------



## gary38532

laynes69 said:


> Unfortunately people judge a book by it's cover. When they see a nice house they automatically think it's tight, well built or efficient.


Oh trust me this house was not nice when I got it. That picture is after many changes over the last 6 years.


----------



## gary38532

laynes69 said:


> cooling in the summertime


Thats never been a problem I like it warm even in the summer I only run one window ac


----------



## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> Thats never been a problem I like it warm even in the summer I only run one window ac




There ya go, that's your answer....move to Florida.


----------



## SpaceBus

The wood is not dry, tons of cold air infiltration, or the house is hemorrhaging hot air.


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> There ya go, that's your answer....move to Florida.


haha I've heard that before


----------



## gary38532

laynes69 said:


> I also knew a few people with 1500 sq ft homes with their gas bill hitting 600 a month.


I dont like the heat from other fuels, I like the constant heat that wood makes possible.  Idk what it would cost to heat this house in gas (I'm sure it would be a lot) I never used anything else but wood. This is first year Ive had to use the electric. The bill was only 30 higher but I let most of the house get and stay cold. Only the bedrooms when they were occupied.


----------



## brenndatomu

SpaceBus said:


> The wood is not dry


If he is getting long runs on pilot, "c", then the wood is dry.


----------



## brenndatomu

laynes69 said:


> This is an old picture but it gives you an idea what we are heating.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 253675


Heating that with a Caddy...impressive! You have most definitely fine tuned the air sealing and insulation in that palace!


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Heating that with a Caddy...impressive! You have most definitely fine tuned the air sealing and insulation in that palace!


I would say so... He should come visit my house.... Lol


----------



## laynes69

brenndatomu said:


> Heating that with a Caddy...impressive! You have most definitely fine tuned the air sealing and insulation in that palace!


I know! Last year I ran the furnace 2 times for 5 minutes. I just added a second master bath and gutted and redid a den. That alone made a world of difference. Also the blower always on low is working well, and when the plenum hits around 140 then its speed 2. I'll find out tomorrow night how it does in the colder weather. I still have alot of sealing to do, but it's getting there.


----------



## JRHAWK9

laynes69 said:


> Don't give up! When we bought this house from my parents, my dad bragged about how easy it was to heat it cause it was "well insulated." Honestly when we purchased the home I think the heat loss was easily well over 120,000 btus an hour at zero degrees. The old woodfurnace just covered it up. We froze out asses off all of the time no matter how warm the thermostat read. At  one point the house was so bad that 2-150,000 btu oils furnaces heated it (one up and down). Now I think we are around 70,000 btus at zero, or less. I want to spray foam the perimeter in the basement and I think that will take us towards the end of improvements. I also need to remove all old caulking around the windows and replace when I repaint.




Definitely some impressive results!


----------



## Case1030

gary38532 said:


> I would say so... He should come visit my house.... Lol



It would be interesting to try a max caddy or heatpro in the same spot as your vf100. Obviously I wouldn't want to spend any more after all the hassle you have gone through.... worst case scenario would Lampa still take the furnace back?

I do believe the VF 100 is top of the line, efficiency, clean, and user friendly. Heck I'd like to have one... but end of the day if it's under sized for your house it will never work the way you expect.

Now imagine you bought a smaller furnace like the tundra/heatmax you would probably barely hit 60f.

Honestly if you have exhausted all available avenues, do yourself a favor and get a larger furnace "if" your able to work some type of return with lampa. Now "if" your not able to work somthing out and there is no way to lower heat loss in your home you only have 2 options left...

1. Supliment heat with somthing other than wood.
2. Have fun tending to a second wood stove. (In my eyes that defeats the purpose of switching from the clayton to the kumma!)


----------



## maple1

Maybe it's time for everyone posting to go back & re-read the thread to see if something new comes to mind & try to get re-focused. With 22 pages, its painful, but I just did it (with lots of skimming involved).

So from that - I don't think we did ever see any stack temps? Not sure that will lead to anything, but good to rule things in & out even 22 pages later.

My main point now though after that painful exercise - I also don't think we have seen actual plenum temps? We have seen temps of a close register. But I think actual plenum temps right above the furnace may help. Along with more temps at more register outlets. Looking at past pics, I see a finished/drywalled basement & ceiling. And in that one IR picture, I think I am seeing what looks like MAJOR heat loss out the bottom of the walls. If that is joist space, I think that is where most of the problems is, since it also looks like that is where all the duct work is - sandwiched between a finished basement ceiling and a floor. If the rim joist area didn't get insulated & air sealed properly before the basement ceiling went up, then that is where most of the heat transfer from your ductwork will be - to the cold air surrounding it in that trapped space. Which then leaks & gets pulled out & through due to poor airsealing. Even a short duct run will give up a lot of heat with bare duct work & cold air moving through.

My current thoughts. Unless I missed or misinterpreted something in looking back. Which could be possible with all that skimming.

EDIT: Would also be good to see more IR pics. With the furnace having run at max output for a while and still on a good burn. With it cold outside. Full view from all 4 sides of the house. That's a decent tool, and now that you have it, might as well use it.


----------



## brenndatomu

maple1 said:


> And in that one IR picture, I think I am seeing what looks like MAJOR heat loss out the bottom of the walls. If that is joist space, I think that is where most of the problems is, since it also looks like that is where all the duct work is - sandwiched between a finished basement ceiling and a floor. If the rim joist area didn't get insulated & air sealed properly before the basement ceiling went up, then that is where most of the heat transfer from your ductwork will be - to the cold air surrounding it in that trapped space. Which then leaks & gets pulled out & through due to poor airsealing. Even a short duct run will give up a lot of heat with bare duct work & cold air moving through.


Good post @maple1 ! Funny, I read back through most of this thread myself last night.
Agreed, rim joist is a really common problem area...and the house is about the perfect age to be right in the time where is seems like those issues were even more common...young enough that contractors were really scrimping on materials, old enough that the whole air sealing thing hadn't caught on yet.


----------



## lampmfg

I appreciate everyone helping out, trying to improve his situation.  I understand concerns about the size and BTU output.  The only thing I'm positive about is the Kuuma Vapor-Fire 100 is the most efficient indoor cordwood furnace ever proven by our EPA tests.  That means when set-up correctly for the amount of wood burned, you get the maximum amount of BTU's possible.  Obviously, some houses require a much larger heat load than others, but like many on here have stated in the long run, nearly everyone in those cases would be better off focusing on improving the heat loss they are experiencing.  Another heating appliance would use more of the required fuel and band-aid the more significant problem.  

I have previously stated that we would take back the furnace if desired.  We know that it works great, and so do many of our owners on this thread with a variety of homes, set-ups, and climates.


----------



## Fred61

Interesting that you would bring this up at this time. It came to mind last night that the story has touched all aspects of heating with no final outcome. I have been reading this thread recently as a "who dunnit" mystery waiting for the perpetrator to show up. Thought about going back and reading it as maple did but I was too lazy, however I did want to mention a few things that came to mind as I was reading through it.
Was it ever established that a single firing was "normal", meaning the fire lasted about the amount of time it should have for a given amount of wood?
Another thing that caught my attention was the claim that small pieces of soot came out of the BD at one point which made me suspect there may have been a back draft. Are there any tall trees within 100 or 150 feet of the chimney?
Getting to the insulation part. If the home is as dry as described at this time of the year, there could be a couple reasons. One being air infiltration and the other being an extremely well installed vapor barrier under and around the foundation, which I doubt, with no vapor barrier in the ceiling. I experienced the latter in a house I built in 1979. All my furniture fell apart and I used to carry a quarter in my pocket to discharge myself before touching a door knob. Also don't pet the cat against the grain of the hair By adding a layer of iso board to the ceiling you would be adding insulation and vapor barrier. Although I've never done this on a ceiling, I've done several walls. The home I have now has 1.5 inch iso board under half inch drywall on most of the outside walls. Don't worry about getting extended electrical boxes. Just remove the existing boxes from the wood framing and install those "handi boxes" that anchor to the back of the drywall. Apply plastic tape to all joints in the insulation board.
Several years ago one of my brothers was having a house built (mansion in my eyes) and I happened to visit about the time the insulation was being installed. They weren't scrimping on insulation. Their choice for insulation exceeded any requirements however the installation was terrible. As he was walking me through I pointed out the poor workmanship and he took it personally and assumed I was criticizing his house and he ended the tour. After a couple years he sold the place because he couldn't heat it. There's conduction, convection, radiant and infiltration heat loss with infiltration being the worst. Just open a window and you'll agree.
For all those who have cathedral ceilings in the cold part of the country, wouldn't it be nice if we could train ourselves to live on the ceiling for 7 months of the year.


----------



## Case1030

Did OP end up installing a fresh air furnace duct? If basement is not being used/unfinished, like @maple1  mentioned above



maple1 said:


> If that is joist space, I think that is where most of the problems is, since it also looks like that is where all the duct work is - sandwiched between a finished basement ceiling and a floor. If the rim joist area didn't get insulated & air sealed properly before the basement ceiling went up, then that is where most of the heat transfer from your ductwork will be - to the




Alot of heat loss from bare metal ducts... could try insulating the plenum and ducting in the basement. Wasted heat for a space that's never used.

Also duct delivery temp are already low on The Epa furnaces as is.


----------



## gary38532

Fred61 said:


> By adding a layer of iso board to the ceiling you would be adding insulation and vapor barrier.


So where do I put the iso board on top of the drywall? I dont see how I would put it under it with out taken my whole ceiling down?


----------



## gary38532

Fred61 said:


> Another thing that caught my attention was the claim that small pieces of soot came out of the BD at one point which made me suspect there may have been a back draft


Idk where thats from I never had that happen? I did have bad draft but after the chimney repairs its been good.


----------



## gary38532

Thanks for everyones thoughts about the living room but that's not how it works. The living room is on a crawl space. I think the heat is coming from leaks in in there. The duct work for it runs through the basement wall into the crawl space and braches off to the far ends of the room. It's the only insulated ducts in the house. The garage next to that is on a slab and there is a room above that. I currently have all of that shut off (living room+room above garage) the door to it is also blocked with a blanket. Dale (from lamppa) and I are doing a experiment to see if it heats better with out the addition in the equation. To better pin point where the most heat loss is.  Oh yeah the garage is insulated but I never heat it not now or before with the old wood furance.  The VF100 Is in the center one duct goes left to heat the kitchen and bed rooms (all on the basement) the other goes right to heat the addition on the crawl space and the room above the garage. I hope this makes some kind of sense... Ill post more pictures later If it helps...  I never expected this post to become so big. Thank you everyone for the overwhelming help.


----------



## gary38532

Case1030 said:


> Did OP end up installing a fresh air furnace duct? If basement is not being used/unfinished, like @maple1  mentioned above
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alot of heat loss from bare metal ducts... could try insulating the plenum and ducting in the basement. Wasted heat for a space that's never used.
> 
> Also duct delivery temp are already low on The Epa furnaces as is.


I can insulate them it shouldnt be to hard


----------



## maple1

More IR pics.


----------



## gary38532

maple1 said:


> More IR pics.


Ok


----------



## brenndatomu

Well, how did you fare during the cold snap @gary38532 ?


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Well, how did you fare during the cold snap @gary38532 ?


well lets not forget I got like half the house blocked off still to start. The living room and upstairs area was as low as 45 with ice on the windows (never thought I would see that) and the kicthen and bedrooms where about 68 with the no help from the electric. I kept it 71 through out it though with support from the electric. I don't think its fair to say the vf100 was still struggling even with half the house blocked off because the only thing bettween that 45 and 71 was a blanket and god knows it was still leaking in. I think its pretty much safe to say that the living room/loft area is ruining my new stoves potential. Im just not sure what I can really do about it though. I could call and get the walls and crawlspace foamed but that still leaves the ceiling. What am I going to do about that ceiling? Oh just so everyone knows thats the only cathedral in the house the rest are just normal rooms.


----------



## gary38532

Oh yeah I was going to post more IR pics but ive been busy all week with work and what not and just haven't had a min Ill try to take more tonight!


----------



## gary38532

The living room and loft are on the other side of this... this was taken in the kitchen area


----------



## Fred61

gary38532 said:


> So where do I put the iso board on top of the drywall? I dont see how I would put it under it with out taken my whole ceiling down?


Sorry Gary, I forgot to answer your question.
Yeah! Rip it down, re-arrange the blanket insulation, attach iso board and screw on the drywall.  Over my building career I done more difficult jobs but I'll admit I had the cahones to attempt anything. Did the same thing in an office that measured 19 feet to the peak and installed 5/8 in fire rated drywall.
Doing it will give you a good look at the present insulation or lack thereof. I couldn't believe what I uncovered when I did my walls. This house was built for electric heat and I found some cavities with 15 to 20 inches of of 
bare plywood sheathing exposed.
Gather up some of your friends and your brother-in-law, buy a case of beer and go. Don't forget the panel jack.

Also check the ventilation cavity.


----------



## gary38532

Fred61 said:


> Sorry Gary, I forgot to answer your question.
> Yeah! Rip it down, re-arrange the blanket insulation, attach iso board and screw on the drywall.  Over my building career I done more difficult jobs but I'll admit I had the cahones to attempt anything. Did the same thing in an office that measured 19 feet to the peak and installed 5/8 in fire rated drywall.
> Doing it will give you a good look at the present insulation or lack thereof. I couldn't believe what I uncovered when I did my walls. This house was built for electric heat and I found some cavities with 15 to 20 inches of of
> bare plywood sheathing exposed.
> Gather up some of your friends and your brother-in-law, buy a case of beer and go. Don't forget the panel jack.
> 
> Also check the ventilation cavity.


yeah that sucks though the ceiling in the living room is only like 5 years old when I moved in it had to be taken down it was falling apart from the house not being lived in... I would hate to destroy it. I did see the insulation behind it there was no gaps like that but its very thin. The guys that where doing the job said it wouldnt be a problem ... little did I know...


----------



## gary38532

Maybe I'll try just doing the walls and crawlspace and see if I can get away with it...


----------



## gary38532

Thats the ceiling like 4k worth to get it put up... Ill never get my money back that's the problem


----------



## Woodman1

This is crazy. Your house looks good the drywall looks nice. No way in the world I would tear that down and open up all that mess. What on earth changed in your house from the time you had your old wood furnace to the Kuma?


----------



## gary38532

Woodman1 said:


> This is crazy. Your house looks good the drywall looks nice. No way in the world I would tear that down and open up all that mess. What on earth changed in your house from the time you had your old wood furnace to the Kuma?


idk but its like night and day man


----------



## gary38532

This is Front door... I took these quick its bad outside


----------



## gary38532

small bedroom window


----------



## gary38532

back of the house next to the new chimney that door use to go to a porch... the VF100 is under that door


----------



## JRHAWK9

Looks like you have some pretty good leakage around the wall plates.....??  The red areas under the windows/doors.  I can see windows/doors being like that, but those other areas are not good.


----------



## gary38532

Lots of heat on my foundation that doesnt need to be there.... Maybe I should do something about that?


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> Looks like you have some pretty good leakage around the wall plates.....??  The red areas under the windows/doors.  I can see windows/doors being like that, but those other areas are not good.


yeah I seen that too I wonder why


----------



## laynes69

There's quite a bit of heat loss based on the IR pics. With it being that cold, I would get pics inside the home. Any air leaks above builds to air leaks down below with the chimney effect. Is your crawlspace vented?


----------



## gary38532

laynes69 said:


> There's quite a bit of heat loss based on the IR pics. With it being that cold, I would get pics inside the home. Any air leaks above builds to air leaks down below with the chimney effect. Is your crawlspace vented?


If it is I dont know about it


----------



## gary38532

laynes69 said:


> There's quite a bit of heat loss based on the IR pics. With it being that cold, I would get pics inside the home. Any air leaks above builds to air leaks down below with the chimney effect. Is your crawlspace vented?


Ive tried looking around inside its random to the point Idk what to make of it... How about this... Ill show you the same points inside...


----------



## laynes69

gary38532 said:


> Ive tried looking around inside its random to the point Idk what to make of it... How about this... Ill show you the same points inside...


You can filter the seek to the point of any temperature below a set temp will show in color and the remaining pictures will be black and grey. Here is an example.


----------



## gary38532

what temp do I set it to?


----------



## laynes69

gary38532 said:


> what temp do I set it to?


Experiment with it. You will know when the background colors dissapear and the drafts show. I was thinking around 45 degrees or so when I took the pic.


----------



## gary38532

laynes69 said:


> Experiment with it. You will know when the background colors dissapear and the drafts show. I was thinking around 45 degrees or so when I took the pic.


ok I'll see if I can work it out


----------



## gary38532

Ill try again tomorrow and let you guys know


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> Thats the ceiling like 4k worth to get it put up... Ill never get my money back that's the problem
> View attachment 253858


The "lowest fruit" needs to be picked first...while the insulation in that ceiling may not be great, air leaks are a bigger issue here I think, and as @laynes69  mentioned, hot air leaking out the top pulls cold air in the bottom. That's why it was mentioned earlier about sealing up that rim joist area, if you make it harder to pull cold air in, it slows down the warm air out the top...and a  leaky rim joist is really common and likely part of that heat signature seen around the bottom of the house in your IR pics.
What many people have done to remedy leaky rim joist is a little time consuming, but cheap enough to fix.
Get a couple sheets of 1-2" thick rigid foam insulation board, cut panels that are .5 to 1" smaller than the area between the floor joists (so like 13.5 to 14" wide) and then same for the height. Take a can of spray foam and run a generous bead around on top of the sill plate, up the joist, across the top, down the other joist...also seal up any cracks/gaps you see in there. Then smoosh your foam panel into the wet spray foam and "seal it in" with another generous bead of spray foam around the perimeter on the outside of the foam board. Repeat as many times as it takes to do around the whole foundation. Also run a bead of foam in the gap between the sill plate and the block/concrete of the foundation...that is another common leak...heck, sometimes you can see light through those gaps in the daytime, especially on poorly built houses!
You can do a lot of air sealing with just a few cans of spray foam! IIRC, this was Laynes69's main secret weapon on his house...that and the Seek camera.


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> The "lowest fruit" needs to be picked first...while the insulation in that ceiling may not be great, air leaks are a bigger issue here I think, and as @laynes69  mentioned, hot air leaking out the top pulls cold air in the bottom. That's why it was mentioned earlier about sealing up that rim joist area, if you make it harder to pull cold air in, it slows down the warm air out the top...and a  leaky rim joist is really common and likely part of that heat signature seen around the bottom of the house in your IR pics.
> What many people have done to remedy leaky rim joist is a little time consuming, but cheap enough to fix.
> Get a couple sheets of 1-2" thick rigid foam insulation board, cut panels that are .5 to 1" smaller than the area between the floor joists (so like 13.5 to 14" wide) and then same for the height. Take a can of spray foam and run a generous bead around on top of the sill plate, up the joist, across the top, down the other joist...also seal up any cracks/gaps you see in there. Then smoosh your foam panel into the wet spray foam and "seal it in" with another generous bead of spray foam around the perimeter on the outside of the foam board. Repeat as many times as it takes to do around the whole foundation. Also run a bead of foam in the gap between the sill plate and the block/concrete of the foundation...that is another common leak...heck, sometimes you can see light through those gaps in the daytime, especially on poorly built houses!
> You can do a lot of air sealing with just a few cans of spray foam! IIRC, this was Laynes69's main secret weapon on his house...that and the Seek camera.


Im sorry but I don't understand... you want me to seal the bottom up? I dont know what a rim joist is...


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> Im sorry but I don't understand... you want me to seal the bottom up? I dont know what a rim joist is...







Here is a pic of the foam panels I was talking about...you'd spray foam all around the edges before putting the foam in, then again after installing.




Here is a pic of the finished product...notice the bead of spray foam between the top of the concrete and the sill plate also...


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> View attachment 253868
> 
> Here is a pic of the foam panels I was talking about...you'd spray foam all around the edges before putting the foam in, then again after installing.
> View attachment 253869
> 
> Here is a pic of the finished product...notice the bead of spray foam between the top of the concrete and the sill plate also...
> View attachment 253872


I can make that happen... but it looks like the whole thing is leaking to me... the whole foundation that's above the ground? right?


----------



## gary38532

Some how I have to make that happen there...


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> I can make that happen... but it looks like the whole thing is leaking to me... the whole foundation that's above the ground? right?


It could be radiating heat...especially the foundation that's in front of the VF100, but as I said before, I personally think air sealing as much as you possibly can, will yield more "bang for the buck" gains than upgrading insulation will...


----------



## gary38532

this is the finished half


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> It could be radiating heat...especially the foundation that's in front of the VF100, but as I said before, I personally think air sealing as much as you possibly can, will yield more "bang for the buck" gains than upgrading insulation will...


yes and I want to do that but I need to be able to make it happen


----------



## gary38532

that part your talking about is behind all that wire


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> Some how I have to make that happen there...
> View attachment 253873


That's an outside wall? Not sure what I'm looking at there...different than standard building practice for sure...


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> That's an outside wall? Not sure what I'm looking at there...different than standard building practice for sure...


that's the basement wall


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> this is the finished half
> View attachment 253875


Have you compared the IR pics on the outside of the finished part vs the unfinished part? Just wondering how well the finished part was insulated/sealed...


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Have you compared the IR pics on the outside of the finished part vs the unfinished part? Just wondering how well the finished part was insulated sealed...


its the same


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> its the same


Ouch


----------



## gary38532

I know no wants me to help it with another stove.  Everyone is telling me my money would be better spent on sealing... but I need to able to do it.  In alot of cases I cant...


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> I know no wants me to help it with another stove.


I never said that...I have 2 also, remember?


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Ouch


I wouldn't say that the same guy that did the addition did the basement... im sure its not good...


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> I never said that...I have 2 also, remember?


your the only one that didnt lol


----------



## brenndatomu

Even though your Avalon is a little smaller than ideal (probably) I still think it would provide a surprising boost to the overall house temp when combined with the Kuuma. It would/should get you through this winter and give you an idea where you might want to go with all this next, without spending the big bux on the F3500 and new chimney all at once...


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Even though your Avalon is a little smaller than ideal (probably) I still think it would provide a surprising boost to the overall house temp when combined with the Kuuma. It would/should get you through this winter and give you an idea where you might want to go with all this next, without spending the big bux on the F3500 and new chimney all at once...


its 45 in the living room... Im thinking propane furnace. They want 6k to do the 3500... I think hes trying to play me cuz he knows the house is cold.


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> its 45 in the living room... Im thinking propane furnace. They want 6k to do the 3500... I think hes trying to play me cuz he knows the house is cold.


You spelled proPAIN wrong...   
That's complete BS if he is trying to take advantage of the situation! 
What's heating oil prices like in your area? Around here its cheaper than propain for sure...


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> hat's complete BS if he is trying to take advantage of the situation!


thats what i ment


----------



## gary38532

when you live out where I do theres not much else then propane and wood..... no one here burns oil


----------



## gary38532

Ill keep the living room blocked off, VF100 on max, and the electric set to min.... I guess ill get by... thats all I can do at this point...


----------



## brenndatomu

Switching gears a bit...it would admittedly be a small sample...but if you took a reading of your electric meter at midnight, then heated totally with electric for 24 hours, then took another meter read at midnight again, it might give you a rough idea of your heat load...you would have to calculate HDD in and all too. 
Not that this fixes anything, but it would be nice to know...


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Switching gears a bit...it would admittedly be a small sample...but if you took a reading of your electric meter at midnight, then heated totally with electric for 24 hours, then took another meter read at midnight again, it might give you a rough idea of your heat load...you would have to calculate HDD in and all too.
> Not that this fixes anything, but it would be nice to know...


Im not sure it would be correct... I'm using  4 of them.... theres alot more... Im trying to save as much as can


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> Some how I have to make that happen there...
> View attachment 253873


Going back to this pic...I just cant figure out what is going on there...that is some really weird framing! Can you get a pic of what is up in behind that wiring, what the framing that is actually sitting on the foundation wall looks like,  exactly?


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> Im not sure it would be correct... I'm using  4 of them.... theres alot more... Im trying to save as much as can


You have 4 electric meters?!


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> You have 4 electric meters?!


haha no 4 of the electric baseboards


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> haha no 4 of the electric baseboards


Oh, ok, sorry. Well, whatever you are using would still show up on the 24 hr meter read, and be able to be converted into BTU's...


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Oh, ok, sorry. Well, whatever you are using would still show up on the 24 hr meter read, and be able to be converted into BTU's...


it doesnt matter thats not what is heating  the house half the house is 45 right now


----------



## gary38532

its wrong anyway... whatever it is... its going to be more


----------



## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> its wrong anyway... whatever it is... its going to be more



He means letting the VF100 die out and heating the WHOLE house simply with electric, taking a meter read after the fire dies out and then again 24 hours later.  This will then give you your energy consumption during that 24 hour time frame which can then be converted to gross BTU's.

That's if the meter doesn't fry itself from spinning too fast!


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> it doesnt matter thats not what is heating  the house half the house is 45 right now


I understand...what I am saying is to shut the VF down for a day, open the house back up normal like, heat the place to your preferred temp for 24 hours, get a meter reading. This reading, minus your average daily usage, would roughly equal your 24 hr BTU load. Might cost a bit, but 24 hours shouldn't be too bad, especially next week when its a little warmer.
But if you don't care what the number is, then I guess it doesn't matter...just would be nice to see once and for all if the VF is just completely overloaded, or something is not quite optimized yet...although it sure _seems_ like that's been covered.


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> I understand...what I am saying is to shut the VF down for a day, open the house back up normal like, heat the place to your preferred temp for 24 hours, get a meter reading. This reading, minus your average daily usage, would roughly equal your 24 hr BTU load. Might cost a bit, but 24 hours shouldn't be too bad, especially next week when its a little warmer.
> But if you don't care what the number is, then I guess it doesn't matter...just would be nice to see once and for all if the VF is just completely overloaded, or something is not quite optimized yet...although it sure _seems_ like that's been covered.


Holy crap man... I dont have the money you think I do... there is just no way I can do that... sorry


----------



## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> Holy crap man... I dont have the money you think I do... there is just no way I can do that... sorry



If heating the place with electric really does cost -that- much over a 24 hour period, than yeah, I think you do have an astronomical heat load.


----------



## gary38532

Once we know the BTU number how does that help me?


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> If heating the place with electric really does cost -that- much over a 24 hour period, than yeah, I think you do have an astronomical heat load.


it doesnt I used it all last month it only went up 30 but the vf100 was running the whole time


----------



## gary38532

shuting all my cost effected heat off just gives us a number no solution is my point


----------



## gary38532

we all ready know its big I think that's been well established


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> Holy crap man... I dont have the money you think I do... there is just no way I can do that... sorry


Couldn't cost much more than $25-30 for the day...$40 at the most. 
$40 per day would be $1200 per month...I can't imagine it would run more than that.
My buddy had an all electric house and during the "polar vortex" event we had a few winters back, he had a $900 bill.
He installed a NG system, with AC...then sold the place.


----------



## brenndatomu

new Vapor Fire 100 with very poor heat
					

I know no wants me to help it with another stove.  Everyone is telling me my money would be better spent on sealing... but I need to able to do it.  In alot of cases I cant...




					www.hearth.com
				




Reposting, in case it was missed...


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Couldn't cost much more than $25-30 for the day...$40 at the most.
> $40 per day would be $1200 per month...I can't imagine it would run more than that.
> My buddy had an all electric house and during the "polar vortex" event we had a few winters back, he had a $900 bill.
> He installed a NG system, with AC...then sold the place.


900? that's why I'm keeping the VF100 going... again what do I get out of knowing the BTU number?


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> If im going to let go out I need a good reason other then just knowing...


Like I explained before...it would be just to put a number on it...because its hard to make informed decisions going forward when you have an undefined target. If the plan is to just add more firepower until it is adequate to keep up, then that certainly is your prerogative.
If the plan is to insulate/air seal until you win...well, that is certainly not a bad idea. 
I would want a number...but that is just me.


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Like I explained before...it would be just to put a number on it...because its hard to make informed decisions going forward when you have an undefined target. If the plan is to just add more firepower until it is adequate to keep up, then that certainly is your prerogative.
> If the plan is to insulate/air seal until you win...well, that is certainly not a bad idea.
> I would want a number...but that is just me.


Well thank you thats very helpful...


----------



## Case1030

gary38532 said:


> Well thank you thats very helpful...



If your not willing to seal your house up to reduce the heat load... you are going to compensate with another wood burning stove?... not sure why you don't just go with a larger wood furnace instead of 2 burners. Better make your mind up before the window closes. 

I have a wood stove insert along with my wood furnace, but I only used it 5 days last winter. Sounds like if you get a woodstove upstairs you will be firing it everyday to keep up. Two units to fill, more wood mess...that will get old real fast.


----------



## gary38532

Again I'm willing to seal the house up I just can't do alot of what's being suggested...


----------



## gary38532

Case1030 said:


> If your not willing to seal your house up to reduce the heat load... you are going to compensate with another wood burning stove?... not sure why you don't just go with a larger wood furnace instead of 2 burners. Better make your mind up before the window closes.
> 
> I have a wood stove insert along with my wood furnace, but I only used it 5 days last winter. Sounds like if you get a woodstove upstairs you will be firing it everyday to keep up. Two units to fill, more wood mess...that will get old real fast.


It's going to cost 800 to remove the VF100, then 500 to ship it back and maybe 800 to install the new one that's why...


----------



## Fred61

I have this lingering picture in my head of the guy that told you the "thin" insulation in the ceiling was ok when you had a chance to change it. Did he look like he had just crawled out of a sleeping bag when he got to the job in the morning?
Heat loss of the magnitude you're speaking should be obvious as the nose on your face but after this amount of scrutiny it hasn't been discovered. I can open a window in my house and baking a pie in the oven will keep the house above 45 degrees.


----------



## gary38532

gary38532 said:


> Some how I have to make that happen there...
> View attachment 253873


what if I have them fill the cavity with foam? @brenndatomu


----------



## gary38532

Fred61 said:


> I have this lingering picture in my head of the guy that told you the "thin" insulation in the ceiling was ok when you had a chance to change it. Did he look like he had just crawled out of a sleeping bag when he got to the job in the morning?



Well no he looked like any other guy if you ask me... he did put a very nice ceiling up if you ask me...


----------



## gary38532

I'm willing to do what it takes. I need to able to do it! Typing move the moon is easy... doing it.... well you get my point I hope?


----------



## Woodman1

Your first post states you were able to keep the house a comfy 75 with a 50% efficient Clayton consuming 9 cord for the season. If nothing has changed within the heating envelop something doesn't add up at all. 

Please post a picture from behind the wires on the basement wall so we can see what the sill plate looks like.

 In the picture of the ceiling in the living room what is the hole/access going up that is right of the ceiling fan?


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> what if I have them fill the cavity with foam? @brenndatomu





Woodman1 said:


> Please post a picture from behind the wires on the basement wall so we can see what the sill plate looks like.


This ^ ^ ^.
Having a few select areas foamed would possibly be a good option too...but yes, need a better pic (closeup) of what exactly things look like up there above/behind those wires in the sill plate/rim joist area...


----------



## Woodman1

I had my rim joists sprayed when they foamed my house.


----------



## garmford

gary38532 said:


> Some how I have to make that happen there...
> View attachment 253873



I noticed the window next to your front door is cantilevered past the foundation of the house and you also are showing a ton of heat loss in that area too. Is this the picture under that area?  Obviously getting rigid foam in there is nearly impossible but you could push batt insulation in there or better yet, you may be able to remove the plywood from the outside under the window bump out and insulate, caulk, seal any holes that the romex goes thru the plates, then put the plywood back on.
i won’t argue that rigid foam accompanied with spray foam is you’re best defense, but in areas that you can’t get to, batt insulation will still be a huge improvement.


----------



## Case1030

Woodman1 said:


> Your first post states you were able to keep the house a comfy 75 with a 50% efficient Clayton consuming 9 cord for the season. If nothing has changed within the heating envelop something doesn't add up at all.
> 
> Please post a picture from behind the wires on the basement wall so we can see what the sill plate looks like.
> 
> In the picture of the ceiling in the living room what is the hole/access going up that is right of the ceiling fan?



That's why I'm starting to think. It must be at the delivery. Due to the nature of the epa furnaces they are slow and steady heat producers unlike the old clayton. So definitely alot of air infiltration near or around the rim joists cooling the the ducts... that's my take on it anyway.


----------



## gary38532

Woodman1 said:


> Your first post states you were able to keep the house a comfy 75 with a 50% efficient Clayton consuming 9 cord for the season. If nothing has changed within the heating envelop something doesn't add up at all.


This is correct... My freinds use to come over and complain it was too hot in the house... Sometimes when the fire got to big it would go to 77. This is one of the photos I sent to the Lamppas when I was asking if it would be a good replacement...


----------



## gary38532

I'm not home right now I'll get better pictures when I get back


----------



## gary38532

garmford said:


> I noticed the window next to your front door is cantilevered past the foundation of the house


All the windows in the front are like that... Ill see what I can do with it


----------



## Case1030

@brenndatomu and @JRHAWK9  how much wood could a guy comfortably comfortably go through per heating season if he were to load the vf100 full every time the furnace goes down to coals on max setting? I was thinking 5 cords but you two have first hand experience.

What im trying to get at is, if the clayton has an estimated 50% efficiency and burns 9 cords. The vf100 (correct me if I'm wrong) 86%? And on top of that Lampa gave @gary38532 knowledge to bump up the rate of burn capacity. So maybe he is able to go through 6 cords now with the adjustments made? This is all speculation so correct/add on if it's not accurate.

With that logic he should be near the same heat output the old clayton was producing, except at a slow and steady rate of heat delivery.


----------



## maple1

Im not  an IR or insulation expert but seems to me those IR pics are all showing huge heat loss out the bottom, in the joist area. Which is also where the ductwork is. And a good part of the ductwork is also in a crawlspace? Think I also see some hot spots up high. That is still my number 1 suspect, as mentioned on page 22. Still also havent seen any temp measurements comparing actual plenum temp to temp out the registers. I dont think.


----------



## gary38532

maple1 said:


> Im not  an IR or insulation expert but seems to me those IR pics are all showing huge heat loss out the bottom, in the joist area. Which is also where the ductwork is. And a good part of the ductwork is also in a crawlspace? Think I also see some hot spots up high. That is still my number 1 suspect, as mentioned on page 22. Still also havent seen any temp measurements comparing actual plenum temp to temp out the registers. I dont think.


yes Im on it lol


----------



## brenndatomu

Case1030 said:


> @brenndatomu and @JRHAWK9  how much wood could a guy comfortably comfortably go through per heating season if he were to load the vf100 full every time the furnace goes down to coals on max setting? I was thinking 5 cords but you two have first hand experience.
> 
> What im trying to get at is, if the clayton has an estimated 50% efficiency and burns 9 cords. The vf100 (correct me if I'm wrong) 86%? And on top of that Lampa gave @gary38532 knowledge to bump up the rate of burn capacity. So maybe he is able to go through 6 cords now with the adjustments made? This is all speculation so correct/add on if it's not accurate.
> 
> With that logic he should be near the same heat output the old clayton was producing, except at a slow and steady rate of heat delivery.


@JRHAWK9  would know better than me...he pushes his VF100 to the  max way more often than I do...and has the detailed wood quantity records too...he will be able to give us a definitive answer.
I'm saying 5-6 cords would be max...depending somewhat on wood species...


----------



## Case1030

brenndatomu said:


> @JRHAWK9  would know better than me...he pushes his VF100 to the  max way more often than I do...and has the detailed wood quantity records too...he will be able to give us a definitive answer.
> I'm saying 5-6 cords would be max...depending somewhat on wood species...



9 cords at 50%= 4.5 (clayton)
6 cords at 86% = 5.16 (vf100)
Now let's say it only gets 80% now with adjustment 6 cords at 80%= 4.8

Like I stated above, the clayton (long as I have the scenario correct) would probably smolder while no heat is being called. Soon as heat is called the damper opens, not to long after that the plenum probably starts hammering 180-200f air through the ducts. That would explain how the old furnace covered up the issue so well.


----------



## gary38532

Case1030 said:


> Soon as heat is called the damper opens, not to long after that the plenum probably starts hammering 180-200f air through the ducts


Spot on thats how the Clayton ran


----------



## gary38532

I added some crawlspace photos just for fun


----------



## maple1

130 plenum? Is that what I see?

Edit: And no insulation at all in rim joist area? Which is maybe cantilevered with a room above?


----------



## gary38532

maple1 said:


> 130 plenum? Is that what I see?
> 
> Edit: And no insulation at all in rim joist area? Which is maybe cantilevered with a room above?


yes all of this is ture


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> @JRHAWK9  would know better than me...he pushes his VF100 to the  max way more often than I do...and has the detailed wood quantity records too...he will be able to give us a definitive answer.
> I'm saying 5-6 cords would be max...depending somewhat on wood species...





Case1030 said:


> @brenndatomu and @JRHAWK9  how much wood could a guy comfortably comfortably go through per heating season if he were to load the vf100 full every time the furnace goes down to coals on max setting? I was thinking 5 cords but you two have first hand experience.
> 
> What im trying to get at is, if the clayton has an estimated 50% efficiency and burns 9 cords. The vf100 (correct me if I'm wrong) 86%? And on top of that Lampa gave @gary38532 knowledge to bump up the rate of burn capacity. So maybe he is able to go through 6 cords now with the adjustments made? This is all speculation so correct/add on if it's not accurate.
> 
> With that logic he should be near the same heat output the old clayton was producing, except at a slow and steady rate of heat delivery.



I push it hard maybe 5-7 days a winter, so I'll look at my records.
Well, if pushing it to the max, which includes loading aggressively on coals......it's possible to burn 175-210lbs of wood a day.  So 30 days would be anywhere from 5,250lbs to 6,300 lbs a month.  Using what I use for red oak (3,650 lbs/cord), this equals 1.4 cord to 1.7 cord a month of red oak.  Over 5 months it's possible one could burn 7 - 8.5 cord if running it balls out 100% of the time.  

I have not used 5 cord yet over a ~7 month (early-mid October to early/mid May) "heating" season.


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> I added some crawlspace photos just for fun


You are getting higher plenum temps than I ever have! So IMO, you definitely have high BTU loss...which yes, has pretty much been known for a while now...but without the plenum temp, can't rule out the furnace 100%.
As far as insulating the rim joist/sill plate area as was suggested last night...no reason you can't do that...I have wires stapled to the sill plate just like that...you either work around them, or take them lose, insulate/seal, then staple them back in place...I've done it both ways as needed.
And yes, those bay windows are another notorious loss of heat!


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> You are getting higher plenum temps than I ever have! So IMO, you definitely have high BTU loss...which yes, has pretty much been known for a while now...but without the plenum temp, can't rule out the furnace 100%.
> As far as insulating the rim joist/sill plate area as was suggested last night...no reason you can't do that...I have wires stapled to the sill plate just like that...you either work around them, or take them lose, insulate/seal, then staple them back in place...I've done it both ways as needed.
> And yes, those bay windows are another notorious loss of heat!


Ill try to do the best I can to fix it and post updates here as I go!


----------



## JRHAWK9

130° plenum temp......that's even higher than I see with my blower slowed way down.  Is that with the blower running?


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> 130° plenum temp......that's even higher than I see with my blower slowed way down.  Is that with the blower running?


That's with the fan on low


----------



## gary38532

Would this work? Or should I get something else?


----------



## maple1

I just went painfully looking back again. There was some earlier talk around pages 11 or 12 about duct pressures.  Maybe more, I didnt read ahead past that again. There seems by now some obvious air sealing and insulation problems in the duct area. Which should be able to be band aided some. Along with that can you other VF guys review the duct pressure stuff again and see if you think he's ok there too?

I dont think I would rely on those insulation guys you had out if they didnt look at all of your rim joist and basement area, kind of one of the main possible problem areas they should have looked at first and looked at closest.

And, I dont know so that's why I'm asking - how do Clayton fan cfms compare to VF fan cfms? Could be the big difference between the 2 units I dont think I saw mentioned yet.


----------



## gary38532

maple1 said:


> I dont think I would rely on those insulation guys you had out if they didnt look at all of your rim joist and basement area, kind of one of the main possible problem areas they should have looked at first and looked at closest.


Yeah I agree they didn't give me good advice


----------



## gary38532

maple1 said:


> I dont know so that's why I'm asking - how do Clayton fan cfms compare to VF fan cfms? Could be the big difference between the 2 units I dont think I saw mentioned yet


I think the fan on the vf100 is a little more powerful but I'm not sure


----------



## maple1

gary38532 said:


> That's with the fan on low



I would check plenum temps vs register output temps, at all available speeds under constant burn condition. Think the data has been kind of scattered even after all the pages. It will take a while, but I would measure plenum temps in the same spot all the time, but also check different registers in varying places at all speeds. You should be able to tell which duct runs are losing the most heat. Would also be interesting to see IR pics of the duct work, say in the spaces and also looking down thru floors and up thru ceilings. For fun if nothing else?


----------



## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> That's with the fan on low



It's also in front were it's normally the warmest and where you stuck the probe there could be some dead air.  A more accurate measurement would be up on top of the plenum about center of the furnace body.  Not saying you have to do that, but where you took the measurement explains the high reading.


----------



## JRHAWK9

maple1 said:


> I would check plenum temps vs register output temps, at all available speeds under constant burn condition. Think the data has been kind of scattered even after all the pages. It will take a while, but I would measure plenum temps in the same spot all the time, but also check different registers in varying places at all speeds. You should be able to tell which duct runs are losing the most heat. Would also be interesting to see IR pics of the duct work, say in the spaces and also looking down thru floors and up thru ceilings. For fun if nothing else?




I agree, but I would want to get a good accurate plenum temp first.


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> It's also in front were it's normally the warmest and where you stuck the probe there could be some dead air.  A more accurate measurement would be up on top of the plenum about center of the furnace body.  Not saying you have to do that, but where you took the measurement explains the high reading.


Ok next time I make a fire Ill measure it up high for the whole burn


----------



## laynes69

You have a couple of options, but either a DIY foam kit, foam board and expanding foam, or have a contractor come out and spray foam the rim joists. I had an estimate for our home and it was 800.00 to go all the way around the home. The thermal cam is perfect for your crawlspace. Any air entering the crawl will make it into the home. You can also foam all cracks then place fiberglass in there. If you have areas that are hard to get to, taking a cheap plastic bag, and placing a batt of fiberglass in the bag and stuff it into the cavity. When the fiberglass expands, the bag stops the air movement. I've used this technique many times and it works.


----------



## SpaceBus

I feel for you. Most of my first floor is bare studs and rockwool R23.


----------



## gary38532

SpaceBus said:


> I feel for you. Most of my first floor is bare studs and rockwool R23.


How are you keeping it warm then?


----------



## SpaceBus

gary38532 said:


> How are you keeping it warm then?


With wood stoves and good insulation. The house is so tight I have to open a window to light the cook stove. At 6df and windy the other night it was more effort than normal, but not too bad. I ran both stoves on minimum loaded up with well seasoned sugar maple.


----------



## gary38532

I think I'm going to look into getting the basement walls foamed...


----------



## SpaceBus

gary38532 said:


> I think I'm going to look into getting the basement walls foamed...


Especially if that's where the stove is.


----------



## gary38532

SpaceBus said:


> Especially if that's where the stove is.


Yeah I think it looks like the biggest leak in the IR pictures


----------



## gary38532

I just made a new fire in the vf100 and waited for the computer to get to c. I checked the temp of the plenum in the highest left front corner  it was 105. The blower is back on high... I figured its going to be warmer this week I might as well get my living back into the 60s... @JRHAWK9 @brenndatomu Should I take more temp readings as the fire burns down?


----------



## brenndatomu

Max plenum temps for me usually occurs about 2 hours or so into the burn...


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Max plenum temps for me usually occurs about 2 hours or so into the burn...


It's been almost 3 hours after I loaded it now 113


----------



## Woodman1

Take a reading at some of your registers throughout the house please


----------



## maple1

gary38532 said:


> It's been almost 3 hours after I loaded it now 113



With blower on high all the time?


----------



## gary38532

maple1 said:


> With blower on high all the time?


Yes


----------



## gary38532

Woodman1 said:


> Take a reading at some of your registers throughout the house please


Will do


----------



## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> It's been almost 3 hours after I loaded it now 113


Blower on high with that temp is very good.   More than I remember seeing back when I was running the stock blower setup.


----------



## brenndatomu

Heck, I'm running at 108* right now, with the blower on low...but it was also a small load of wood too...


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Heck, I'm running at 108* right now, with the blower on low...but it was also a small load of wood too...


I wish I could do that... I always do a full 
load I'm going to look into air sealing the crawl space and the basement walls... And go from there


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> Blower on high with that temp is very good.   More than I remember seeing back when I was running the stock blower setup.


So if I fix the leaks I should be warm then


----------



## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> I wish I could do that... I always do a full
> load I'm going to look into air sealing the crawl space and the basement walls... And go from there


Could try doing smaller loads more often.  Mary help with the coaling issue at the end of the burn and allow you to burn wood a bit faster.


----------



## Highbeam

@Case1030 the VF is a low emissions furnace and pretty efficient but it is absolutely not 86% efficient. Even the best wood stoves are only 82% and they are catalytic don’t suffer from duct losses. A noncat furnace is going to be in the 70s if you ignore duct losses. About like an nc30 wood stove. Way better than the old Clayton!


----------



## woodey

JRHAWK9 said:


> Could try doing smaller loads more often.  Mary help with the coaling issue at the end of the burn and allow you to burn wood a bit faster.


Works great for me.


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> Could try doing smaller loads more often.  Mary help with the coaling issue at the end of the burn and allow you to burn wood a bit faster.


I can't really do that during the week with work but I'll try it out on the weekend.


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> load I'm going to look into air sealing the crawl space and the basement walls... And go from there


Better call Dr, Energy Saver!   This is actually a decent video...


----------



## brenndatomu

This one is not bad either...some good info in there


----------



## gary38532

Highbeam said:


> @Case1030 the VF is a low emissions furnace and pretty efficient but it is absolutely not 86% efficient. Even the best wood stoves are only 82% and they are catalytic don’t suffer from duct losses. A noncat furnace is going to be in the 70s if you ignore duct losses. About like an nc30 wood stove. Way better than the old Clayton!


Thats


brenndatomu said:


> Better call Dr, Energy Saver!   This is actually a decent video...



Thats my house!


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> Thats
> 
> Thats my house!


You mean that's the same issues you are having, or literally "your house"?


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> You mean that's the same issues you are having, or literally "your house"?


same issues


----------



## Case1030

Can someone describe "Over All Efficiency"? (Is stack loss calculated)

For example when a manufacturer states 85% overall efficiency, does that mean btu per pound of wood that turns to heat emitted from stove/furnace? Or does stack loss also need to be factored into this equation?


----------



## TCaldwell

Stack loss is a method of calculation for combustion efficiency , 
 K*[tg-ta]/co2=QS
 K= fuel factor for wood .765 (doesnt change)
Tg = fluegas temp 
Ta = combustion air temp
Co2= usually calculated from residual o2 in the fluestream or co2 sensor

Efficiency = 100-QS
 This QS needs to now be adjusted to a lower  heating value for wood,  
QS* .935= real world combustion Efficiency for a wood burning appliance.
 So as a example if the flue temp is 300degf, the combustion air temp is 65degf, calculated co2 is 15.43, qs=88.34%, 
 The adjusted qs=82.6% 

The calculated qs or hhv assumes your able to recoup heat trapped in flue moisture, Or steam you see from the stack,
 The adjusted qs is the best we can get sitting inside watching the steam leave the flue!
I have this calculation programmed into the controller I use on my o2 controlled garn, I’m able to watch real time through a burn. The numbers are very consistent, for about 3/4 of the burn it ranges from 83- 85% efficiency.
 Originally I was going to comment on insulation, I bought a 600 board ft closed cell diy spray foam kit, took about a hr to spray the rim joists, also insulated concrete basement walls with 2 inch foam board and taped seams. These improvements were relatively easy to do and made a huge difference.


----------



## brenndatomu

TCaldwell said:


> I bought a 600 board ft closed cell diy spray foam kit, took about a hr to spray the rim joists


I just seen Menards (for those that have them nearby) has a 200 sq ft froth pak on sale for $299 right now


----------



## sloeffle

When I was looking at doing some foaming at one point in time you could buy the cheapest kits on eBay. I am not sure if that is still true  but it might be worth shopping around. The contractor salesman from Menards who we worked with for our house addition said those kits have a pretty healthy mark up on them.


----------



## SpaceBus

sloeffle said:


> When I was looking at doing some foaming at one point in time you could buy the cheapest kits on eBay. I am not sure if that is still true  but it might be worth shopping around. The contractor salesman from Menards who we worked with for our house addition said those kits have a pretty healthy mark up on them.


The markup/profit margins on the closed cell foam kits are criminal.


----------



## brenndatomu

SpaceBus said:


> The markup/profit margins on the closed cell foam kits are criminal.


Yeah you know its bad when you can often hire a pro to come in and do the job for you for about the same price as buying the DIY kit!


----------



## SpaceBus

brenndatomu said:


> Yeah you know its bad when you can often hire a pro to come in and do the job for you for about the same price as buying the DIY kit!


It's absurd. Poly foam is amazing and I feel like it's being priced out of the markets that need it the most. To do one wall of my house to exceed the r23 rockwool we have now would be $1,400, and that's a froth pak setup for 1,240 board feet.... For now I'll buy small cans to seal the house and keep going forward with the rockwool.


----------



## brenndatomu

SpaceBus said:


> Poly foam is amazing and I feel like it's being priced out of the markets that need it the most.


I had our walls foamed a few years back...there was never any installed and I decided to use the tax credit to fix that. Had a local contractor do it, it was the type that mixes in the gun and they just pump it into the wall cavity through a small hole...I had also gotten a quote for doing the same thing using Airkrete...wish I had gone that route now, even though it was almost double the money. I did a bunch of research ahead of time and I knew that the foam was to be expected to shrink 2% after it cured...I didn't do the math then, but after it was installed I came to realize that 2% across the width of a stud bay is actually a pretty good gap...so much for air sealing! There were some other issues too, but that was more so due to the contractors experience level with this particular product.
I decided to leave well enough alone since this place isn't that hard to heat or cool...there are easier improvements to be made in the attic anyways...still have a little rim joist to finish up too.
Anyways, Airkrete is amazing stuff...the ONLY downside to it, compared to poly foam, is the cost.




__





						Home | Airkrete - All Green Light Weight Cement Insulation!
					

The most environmentally safe, the only fireproof insulation on the planet, gives off zero noxious gases and odors, and is 100% pest and mold resistant!




					airkrete.com


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Airkrete is amazing stuff...the ONLY downside to it, compared to poly foam, is the cost.


I priced that yesterday to do my whole crawl space was about 3200


----------



## SpaceBus

brenndatomu said:


> I had our walls foamed a few years back...there was never any installed and I decided to use the tax credit to fix that. Had a local contractor do it, it was the type that mixes in the gun and they just pump it into the wall cavity through a small hole...I had also gotten a quote for doing the same thing using Airkrete...wish I had gone that route now, even though it was almost double the money. I did a bunch of research ahead of time and I knew that the foam was to be expected to shrink 2% after it cured...I didn't do the math then, but after it was installed I came to realize that 2% across the width of a stud bay is actually a pretty good gap...so much for air sealing! There were some other issues too, but that was more so due to the contractors experience level with this particular product.
> I decided to leave well enough alone since this place isn't that hard to heat or cool...there are easier improvements to be made in the attic anyways...still have a little rim joist to finish up too.
> Anyways, Airkrete is amazing stuff...the ONLY downside to it, compared to poly foam, is the cost.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Home | Airkrete - All Green Light Weight Cement Insulation!
> 
> 
> The most environmentally safe, the only fireproof insulation on the planet, gives off zero noxious gases and odors, and is 100% pest and mold resistant!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> airkrete.com


I like airkrete, but I had no idea there was a professional version. Most aircrete examples I've seen are DIY and somewhat inconsistent for structural uses, but definitely appropriate for insulation.


----------



## Case1030

Highbeam said:


> @Case1030 the VF is a low emissions furnace and pretty efficient but it is absolutely not 86% efficient. Even the best wood stoves are only 82% and they are catalytic don’t suffer from duct losses. A noncat furnace is going to be in the 70s if you ignore duct losses. About like an nc30 wood stove. Way better than the old Clayton!



Right from lampa website. Looks like the efficiency varies around 85% like previously stated.

And there gph is lower than the catalytic stoves aswell. I don't own a VF but they seem to be way ahead of the market.


----------



## Case1030

Also duct loss, long as its within the house is still heat in the house. The problem is where you loose the heat in the house. If the btus are lost in a well insulated area it will still work it's way to the upper floors.

Now if its lost in a poorly insulated crawl space, along with air infiltration will leach it away.


----------



## Highbeam

Case1030 said:


> Right from lampa website. Looks like the efficiency varies around 85% like previously stated.
> 
> And there gph is lower than the catalytic stoves aswell. I don't own a VF but they seem to be way ahead of the market.



Lots of cat stoves are under 1 gph. I’m not impressed with the low emissions as much as high efficiency. I have serious doubts that the 85% is right though. They produced actual data tables that showed mid 70s. I remember because it wasn’t any better than a good stove. 85 is in unicorn territory and I suspect it’s one of those hhv lhv tricks where the energy to boil water from the wood is subtracted. The epa chart should show the real numbers.

The VF is head and shoulders cleaner and more efficient than the other furnaces for sure. They have a great design.


----------



## laynes69

In 1979 my dad owned an insulation business. He foamed every wall in this home. Years later, the ureaformaldyhyde foam shrunk horribly allowing at least a 1/2 on each side of the wall studs. I am now removing it as I go and sealing and re-insulating.  There's also no foam in the small cavities like around the windows and the foam was never filled to the top 2 feet of the walls upstairs. It makes me scared to place foam into the walls after seeing the shrinkage. That and if the mix isn't correct, it can be very detrimental to ones health.


----------



## Case1030

Highbeam said:


> Lots of cat stoves are under 1 gph. I’m not impressed with the low emissions as much as high efficiency. I have serious doubts that the 85% is right though. They produced actual data tables that showed mid 70s. I remember because it wasn’t any better than a good stove. 85 is in unicorn territory and I suspect it’s one of those hhv lhv tricks where the energy to boil water from the wood is subtracted. The epa chart should show the real numbers.
> 
> The VF is head and shoulders cleaner and more efficient than the other furnaces for sure. They have a great design.



The heat exchangers on any wood furnace has a huge advantage over a stand alone wood stove cat or noncat. 

It would be interesting to hear from @lampmfg in regards to this topic.


----------



## Case1030

Highbeam said:


> I suspect it’s one of those hhv lhv tricks where the energy to boil water from the wood is subtracted.



Isn't that factored into stack loss?


----------



## maple1

Since we're at almost 30 pages, it may be prudent if the topic was stuck to so the OPs situation could be focused on.


----------



## Case1030

maple1 said:


> Since we're at almost 30 pages, it may be prudent if the topic was stuck to so the OPs situation could be focused on.



The whole point of calculating efficiency is to compare what the old furnace was doing. There have been many topics circled round and round on the previous pages with no direct answer.

We are trying to also figure out a heat load because OP doesnt have any electric or heating oil records.

Also remember this helps others grasp a better concept. Everyone that has posted is trying to help gary38582.


----------



## gary38532

laynes69 said:


> In 1979 my dad owned an insulation business. He foamed every wall in this home. Years later, the ureaformaldyhyde foam shrunk horribly allowing at least a 1/2 on each side of the wall studs. I am now removing it as I go and sealing and re-insulating.  There's also no foam in the small cavities like around the windows and the foam was never filled to the top 2 feet of the walls upstairs. It makes me scared to place foam into the walls after seeing the shrinkage. That and if the mix isn't correct, it can be very detrimental to ones health.


Maybe I should just stick to the ridged foam then?


----------



## Case1030

gary38532 said:


> Maybe I should just stick to the ridged foam then?



You could use ridgid foam and around the edges use spay foam to air seal. I have done that many times with success.


----------



## gary38532

Case1030 said:


> You could use ridgid foam and around the edges use spay foam to air seal. I have done that many times with success.


I was planing on doing the whole wall also


----------



## gary38532

I guess Ill Just go around all this plumbing? Im going to end up with gaps....


----------



## Case1030

gary38532 said:


> I guess Ill Just go around all this plumbing? Im going to end up with gaps....
> View attachment 253959



I forget what the material is called but it has a reflective mylar type of coating with a thin insulation. Its relatively cheap and really works well. It should be able to slide behind the plumbing.

Maybe another user knows what I'm talking about?

Addition edit: It helps by reflecting radiant heat back away from the walls, which is exactly what the furnace will be emitting alot of. But for the joists I'd stick with ridged foam and spray cans around the edges to air seal.


----------



## brenndatomu

Foil faced polyiso board? That's what I was thinking too...should be able to get a sheet behind there. I'm working on doing my whole basement with polyiso board...well, the one main room for now, more later...


			https://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/insulation/foam-board-insulation/johns-manville-foil-faced-polyiso-foam-insulation-4-x-8/w-n5075/p-1444438921381-c-5779.htm


----------



## garmford

Have you checked to see if your foundation walls already have rigid insulation on the exterior?  Typically you won’t see it above grade. If there is a flower bed next to the house you could dig a few shovel fulls and see. I could see insulating the the top part of the wall that’s above grade on the inside if the exterior is already insulated. I would focus on your rim boards before anything else. Your IR images prove that that’s where your greatest heat losses are. 

FWIW
I also went from a Clayton to a VF100. I had the initial disappointment the first season too as I was used to the amount of heat the Clayton produced compared to the VF. But now after a few years I absolutely love my Kuuma. Mr Hawk helped me tweak mine a bit and it’s running very well. I hope once you get your insulation figured out you will also come to live your Kuuma!


----------



## brenndatomu

garmford said:


> Have you checked to see if your foundation walls already have rigid insulation on the exterior?


That's a good point...new enough house (and poured foundation) that it should have insulation below grade...should be able to see the difference with the IR camera from the inside on a cold night...


----------



## gary38532

garmford said:


> Have you checked to see if your foundation walls already have rigid insulation on the exterior?  Typically you won’t see it above grade. If there is a flower bed next to the house you could dig a few shovel fulls and see. I could see insulating the the top part of the wall that’s above grade on the inside if the exterior is already insulated. I would focus on your rim boards before anything else. Your IR images prove that that’s where your greatest heat losses are.
> 
> FWIW
> I also went from a Clayton to a VF100. I had the initial disappointment the first season too as I was used to the amount of heat the Clayton produced compared to the VF. But now after a few years I absolutely love my Kuuma. Mr Hawk helped me tweak mine a bit and it’s running very well. I hope once you get your insulation figured out you will also come to live your Kuuma!


Ok I wont worry about the walls for now then


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> That's a good point...new enough house (and poured foundation) that it should have insulation below grade...should be able to see the difference with the IR camera from the inside on a cold night...


Ill check it... hard to dig out there right now... pretty frozen


----------



## JRHAWK9

garmford said:


> FWIW
> I also went from a Clayton to a VF100. I had the initial disappointment the first season too as I was used to the amount of heat the Clayton produced compared to the VF. But now after a few years I absolutely love my Kuuma. Mr Hawk helped me tweak mine a bit and it’s running very well. I hope once you get your insulation figured out you will also come to live your Kuuma!



IIRC, you are also heating a rather large volume too.


----------



## garmford

JRHAWK9 said:


> IIRC, you are also heating a rather large volume too.



You are correct. 2300 sq’ ranch(that’s just first floor), 9’ walls with some cathedral and tray ceilings. It’s only 16 years old with out any additions, unlike Gary’s. 
Im only loading twice a  day and my house is staying in the low to mid 70’s. Even last week with those single degree nights I stayed right around 70. I’m quite happy.


----------



## ExxWhy

I wanted to throw my 2 cents in.  I know zero about wood furnaces and little about forced air systems in general, so maybe it doesn't correlate.  But BTU's are BTU's I think. 

I am heating a 3000 sf house that was built in 1969, so you know the insulation is weak at best.  Not century home bad, but weak by modern standards.  My bottom boards aren't insulated at all, the basement is drafty.  Our northern Ohio weather has been similar to the OP as well.  I would think our heat loss has to be similar.  I am using hot water baseboard with a 140K btu rated wood boiler and storage.  Burning that for 5-6 hours per day and the house is as warm as you want to set it.  Optimistically I am getting 700K BTU supply. 

Looking at the Vapor Fire website, looks like your furnace should put out 60K.  I assume you are burning all day, so if it's really putting out that much you should be producing over a million BTU per day.  And yet you are cold. 

Not sure when your's was built, but looks similar vintage.  I have a hard time imagining a house that is smaller than mine that has double the heat loss of mine without some obvious flaws.  Leads me back to the conclusion that furnace isn't putting out the BTU's it should.  On paper, how does the rated BTU output compare between this new furnace and the old one?


----------



## maple1

ExxWhy said:


> I wanted to throw my 2 cents in.  I know zero about wood furnaces and little about forced air systems in general, so maybe it doesn't correlate.  But BTU's are BTU's I think.
> 
> I am heating a 3000 sf house that was built in 1969, so you know the insulation is weak at best.  Not century home bad, but weak by modern standards.  My bottom boards aren't insulated at all, the basement is drafty.  Our northern Ohio weather has been similar to the OP as well.  I would think our heat loss has to be similar.  I am using hot water baseboard with a 140K btu rated wood boiler and storage.  Burning that for 5-6 hours per day and the house is as warm as you want to set it.  Optimistically I am getting 700K BTU supply.
> 
> Looking at the Vapor Fire website, looks like your furnace should put out 60K.  I assume you are burning all day, so if it's really putting out that much you should be producing over a million BTU per day.  And yet you are cold.
> 
> Not sure when your's was built, but looks similar vintage.  I have a hard time imagining a house that is smaller than mine that has double the heat loss of mine without some obvious flaws.  Leads me back to the conclusion that furnace isn't putting out the BTU's it should.  On paper, how does the rated BTU output compare between this new furnace and the old one?


 
There is a big difference. Ductwork in what we think are cold places.


----------



## TCaldwell

Unfortunately it’s not the same, transferring btu’s by water is exponentially more efficient than by air.


----------



## maple1

Don't think the integrity of the entire ductwork has been touched on yet either?


----------



## JRHAWK9

woodey said:


> Works great for me.



This is what I did at the end of January when we had those -37° nights.  I loaded 5 partial loads a day instead of filling the firebox for two of them.  It helped keep firebox temps up w/o having to wait for a bunch of coals to burn down between loadings.  It also helped me burn more wood per day.


----------



## JRHAWK9

maple1 said:


> Don't think the integrity of the entire ductwork has been touched on yet either?



I don't think it has.  Waiting to see some temps taken at the same time at all his registers as well as plenum.  Would be nice if it was in a spreadsheet showing distance from the furnace to the register so one could take that into consideration as well.


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> I don't think it has.  Waiting to see some temps taken at the same time at all his registers as well as plenum.  Would be nice if it was in a spreadsheet showing distance from the furnace to the register so one could take that into consideration as well.


Ill get that posted tomorrow


----------



## gary38532

ExxWhy said:


> I wanted to throw my 2 cents in.  I know zero about wood furnaces and little about forced air systems in general, so maybe it doesn't correlate.  But BTU's are BTU's I think.
> 
> I am heating a 3000 sf house that was built in 1969, so you know the insulation is weak at best.  Not century home bad, but weak by modern standards.  My bottom boards aren't insulated at all, the basement is drafty.  Our northern Ohio weather has been similar to the OP as well.  I would think our heat loss has to be similar.  I am using hot water baseboard with a 140K btu rated wood boiler and storage.  Burning that for 5-6 hours per day and the house is as warm as you want to set it.  Optimistically I am getting 700K BTU supply.
> 
> Looking at the Vapor Fire website, looks like your furnace should put out 60K.  I assume you are burning all day, so if it's really putting out that much you should be producing over a million BTU per day.  And yet you are cold.
> 
> Not sure when your's was built, but looks similar vintage.  I have a hard time imagining a house that is smaller than mine that has double the heat loss of mine without some obvious flaws.  Leads me back to the conclusion that furnace isn't putting out the BTU's it should.  On paper, how does the rated BTU output compare between this new furnace and the old one?


I'm not sure if I said it or not before but the house was bulit in 1990. As far as the stove putting the BTUs out everybody seems to agree it is.  I kown the duct work would get much warmer when it was hooked to the clayton but I never measured the temps back then. I didn't have a reason to do so I could make the place whatever I wanted back then too.  According to what Dale from Lamppa told me he said you cant really compare the two stoves (clayton vs VF100) he said they are just  too different. Ive been burning two full loads a day with it if thats any help... The house must be leaking a lot if it is... it broke 50 today outside and the house is only 69 I only see a 2 degree increase in the room temps on avg. They always drop through out the night regardless of load size, fan speed, and computer setting. 50 with the clayton going was like hell to keep the house from getting to hot... I would only put 3 or 4 logs in on days like today and still come home to 80 in the house... I just dont know what to say about it at this point... im going to move forward with air sealing it. Its the only card I have to play at this point.


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> This is what I did at the end of January when we had those -37° nights.  I loaded 5 partial loads a day instead of filling the firebox for two of them.  It helped keep firebox temps up w/o having to wait for a bunch of coals to burn down between loadings.  It also helped me burn more wood per day.


I did half loads yesterday not much of a diff on my end... still coals up and I have to wait... Im waiting right now as a matter of fact.. When its ready we are going out for dinner... when its ready... I never thought I would be waiting for the wood stove but here I am lol


----------



## SpaceBus

My stove will burn down coals pretty fast if I just open the air wide open. Perhaps put a few small soft wood splits or kindling on the coals.


----------



## gary38532

SpaceBus said:


> My stove will burn down coals pretty fast if I just open the air wide open. Perhaps put a few small soft wood splits or kindling on the coals.


I knew someone was going to say that lol ... Ive tried that a million times... a million ways... its takes a bout a hour or 2 no matter what. I did the 2x4 thing also... all its does is waste my fire start stuff


----------



## gary38532

to get the stove to burn down I useally wake up at 4am pull it forward and go back to bed... wake up at 5am clean up ash and pull it forward again then a shower and its ready for wood before I leave for work alot more work then the clayton was sorry to say


----------



## gary38532

I've been very temped to just throw the wood on top of the coals all ready but the Lamppa say thats bad so I dont. Kind of like being adrift in the ocean with all that water but don't drink... haha


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> I did half loads yesterday not much of a diff on my end... still coals up and I have to wait... Im waiting right now as a matter of fact.. When its ready we are going out for dinner... when its ready... I never thought I would be waiting for the wood stove but here I am lol


Sounds like you need a whole semi load of dry pine...or some other soft wood that doesn't coal up...


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> it broke 50 today outside and the house is only 69 I only see a 2 degree increase in the room temps on avg.


My first impression after reading this is that there has to be a ton of heat going to the foundation...basement floor, foundation, crawlspace, that's all just a 50 ton heat sink basically...heats up slooooowly, and with many BTU's put into it to gain any temp! That's why radiant floor heat is so nice in a commercial shop...someone opens the door to get a vehicle in/out, door is shut, temp is right back to normal almost instantly...because the slab is warm.
I would think that if it was just insulation issues upstairs, the indoor temp should be easily raised on a 50* day.
I just cant figure why there is such a drastic difference in the way the Clayton heated the place...almost seems like it was more than just huge BTU output (although that is part of it I'm sure)...just can't wrap my head around this one...


----------



## woodey

Looking at the pics on the install I am curious as to  the reason the Baro- damper is installed at the thimble to the chimney and not closer to the furnace.


----------



## Socratic Monologue

brenndatomu said:


> I just cant figure why there is such a drastic difference in the way the Clayton heated the place...almost seems like it was more than just huge BTU output (although that is part of it I'm sure)...just can't wrap my head around this one...


I made a similar switch this last year: from a Hotblast 1557 to a Tundra 2.  

The Hotblast heated much of 3000 sq feet, part of the basement, and a large furnace room down to zero F outside pretty easily.  The HB could be run flat out, all day, without issue.  It would burn any wood -- wet, dry, big, small, with bark, with dirty ice stuck to it.  If it was organic and you could jam it through the loading door, it was heat.  Below 20% MC?  Whatever, says the Hotblast, just feed me.  Ash and coal build up was not an issue -- shake the grate, hard if necessary, dump the ash pan and feed it more.  Barometric damper? Nah.  More air = more heat.  No buildup in the flue, either -- 800F once a day to clean it out.

The T2 heats the same down to about 15F, then it struggles.   Struggles slightly more if the hx tubes need a cleaning.    Wood must be dry, splits not too large, and not too much bark, please and thank you.  It has to stop between loads to make tea and rest.  You want the house warmer now?  Should've thought of that two hours ago.  "Don't reload me yet," it says,  "I'm an artist, not an Amazon Fulfillment Center employee.  And don't expect me to burn this wood too fast -- I'll do it right, or not at all."

I'm starting to be trained by the T2, but it is a very different burning experience and still a bit odd.   Also, the furnace has me sealing drafty spots and installing more cellular blinds and interior storm windows when I'm not busy resplitting all those chunks.


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Sounds like you need a whole semi load of dry pine...or some other soft wood that doesn't coal up...





woodey said:


> Looking at the pics on the install I am curious as to  the reason the Baro- damper is installed at the thimble to the chimney and not closer to the furnace.


It's closer to the furance now


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Sounds like you need a whole semi load of dry pine...or some other soft wood that doesn't coal up...


Most of my wood is mixed but it all some kind of hard wood. There is some ash mixed into it but not very much


----------



## gary38532

To be fair the Loft has been off all month... I turned it back on to make the measurement. This was about 2 hours into a full load at med with computer on c. Also distance measurements are approximated.


----------



## Woodman1

Well I think you have found your problem, and from what I can tell you knew it when you titled this thread. It's going to be hard to heat your house with those register temperatures. I00 degree plenum temperature after 2 hours doesn't sound right to me. If that is the way it is designed to operate and as good as it is going to get, I'd be reinstalling the Clayton


----------



## brenndatomu

Hmm...that plenum temp is low...but then again the return air temp is probably low too...was that blower on high or low?


----------



## brenndatomu

Woodman1 said:


> If that is the way it is designed to operate and as good as it is going to get, I'd be reinstalling the Clayton


It's not...if it was, this thread wouldn't have so many people reading along just out of shock, because they have never heard of a disappointed Kuuma owner before.
Like I said earlier in the thread, I've personally only ever heard of 2 people that had big ole drafty houses and had to sell their Kuuma...one installed a OWB, the other sold his to me, and went back to gas as far as I know. 
But this house sure seems like it should be within the realm of the VF100 to heat...just need to figure out where things are wrong...


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Hmm...that plenum temp is low...but then again the return air temp is probably low too...was that blower on high or low?


High


----------



## gary38532

Woodman1 said:


> Well I think you have found your problem, and from what I can tell you knew it when you titled this thread. It's going to be hard to heat your house with those register temperatures. I00 degree plenum temperature after 2 hours doesn't sound right to me. If that is the way it is designed to operate and as good as it is going to get, I'd be reinstalling the Clayton


It gets much worse as the fire burns it's fuel up the registers are cool to touch at that point. Unfortunately puting the clayton back is going going to be hard the chimney is now only a 6in pipe... clayton needs a 8in.


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> It's not...if it was, this thread wouldn't have so many people reading along just out of shock, because they have never heard of a disappointed Kuuma owner before.
> Like I said earlier in the thread, I've personally only ever heard of 2 people that had big ole drafty houses and had to sell their Kuuma...one installed a OWB, the other sold his to me, and went back to gas as far as I know.
> But this house sure seems like it should be within the realm of the VF100 to heat...just need to figure out where things are wrong...


Maybe I didn't give it long enough to heat up I can take more temps later in the day? Could it be my leaky basement cooling it off the whole time?


----------



## SpaceBus

This is great data. Is there any way to get the return air temps a bit higher.


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> Hmm...that plenum temp is low...but then again the return air temp is probably low too...was that blower on high or low?



I wasn't seeing much more than that with the stock setup when the blower was on high.




gary38532 said:


> It's been almost 3 hours after I loaded it now 113



Wonder what led to this plenum temp?  This is very good for high and higher than I was seeing back before my return air/slow blower tweaks.

Although, without knowing the return air temp it's hard to gauge.  My return air temp used to always be right around 65°.


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> Although, without knowing the return air temp it's hard to gauge. My return air temp used to always be right around 65°.


Yes, that is a very nice chart Gary made...very informative...just need 2 more columns, blower speed, and return air temp.
This is how you get to the bottom of a problem...methodically.


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Yes, that is a very nice chart Gary made...very informative...just need 2 more columns, blower speed, and return air temp.
> This is how you get to the bottom of a problem...methodically.


will do


----------



## gary38532

the return is 67 right now just so happens thats what the living room temp is too.... The plenum is still 101... next time I re load I'll do it again with the added data


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> I wasn't seeing much more than that with the stock setup when the blower was on high.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wonder what led to this plenum temp?  This is very good for high and higher than I was seeing back with everything stock.
> 
> Although, without knowing the return air temp it's hard to gauge.  My return air temp used to always be right around 65°.


I had the computer on max that time it was only on mid this time around I found run on max doesnt change much but burns wood up


----------



## gary38532

SpaceBus said:


> This is great data. Is there any way to get the return air temps a bit higher.


Maybe pulling from the ceiling? The return is just a basement stair case...


----------



## JRHAWK9

well if running on max gives you 110°+ plenum temps and medium gives you 101° plenum temps.....that's a big difference...?


----------



## SpaceBus

gary38532 said:


> Maybe pulling from the ceiling? The return is just a basement stair case...


Yes, this is what I was thinking. Especially once your band joist is insulated.


----------



## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> Could it be my leaky basement cooling it off the whole time?



you could very well be taking the air leaking into the house and trying to heat this instead of the cumulative effect of heating strictly inside air.


----------



## gary38532

SpaceBus said:


> Yes, this is what I was thinking. Especially once your band joist is insulated.


Ill make a poor mans duct with cardboard and try today I didnt get around to doing the floor joist yet... holidays are making it hard to find time... I plan to  have it done before going back to work next week... hopefully it happens


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> you could very well be taking the air leaking into the house and trying to heat this instead of the cumulative effect of heating strictly inside air.


that's what i was thinking


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> well if running on max gives you 110°+ plenum temps and medium gives you 101° plenum temps.....that's a big difference...?


not that Ive seen in the house... Do you want me to make a new chart on high this time?


----------



## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> not that Ive seen in the house... Do you want me to make a new chart on high this time?



sure, more data points the better, just make sure the data is correct.  LOL  Your plenum temps will vary based on where you are in the burn, so try to take all measurements at the same time so we can directly relate return air temp to plenum temp to register temps.


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> sure, more data points the better, just make sure the data is correct.  LOL  Your plenum temps will vary based on where you are in the burn, so try to take all measurements at the same time so we can directly relate return air temp to plenum temp to register temps.


Ive been trying to hit it at 2 hours because @brenndatomu  said thats when his is the hottest... I'll do my best to make sure its correct


----------



## SpaceBus

You are doing good work. Seriously, more than  half the folks that come on here balk at trying to improve their setups.


----------



## gary38532

SpaceBus said:


> You are doing good work. Seriously, more than  half the folks that come on here balk at trying to improve their setups.


Thank you


----------



## SpaceBus

gary38532 said:


> Thank you


I also find it commendable that you wanted to go with a more efficient and clean burning unit rather than pump smoke into the air we all breathe.


----------



## gary38532

SpaceBus said:


> I also find it commendable that you wanted to go with a more efficient and clean burning unit rather than pump smoke into the air we all breathe.


Hopefully we can get it working correctly


----------



## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> Hopefully we can get it working correctly



Everything I have seen indicates the furnace itself is working correctly, just need to try to get the warm air to stay in the house and get it to accumulate.  There is a point where things will start to roll and your house temp will increase, which will lead to return air increasing, which leads to warmer supply temps, which leads to even warmer house temps, which leads to even warmer return air....etc  This is the accumulative/snowball effect you are shooting for.  Right now it appears you are not at that "over the hump" point.  Until you can get your return air to increase in temp as time goes on, it's going to be an uphill battle.


----------



## brenndatomu

SpaceBus said:


> You are doing good work. Seriously, more than  half the folks that come on here balk at trying to improve their setups.





SpaceBus said:


> I also find it commendable that you wanted to go with a more efficient and clean burning unit rather than pump smoke into the air we all breathe.


Agreed!


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> Everything I have seen indicates the furnace itself is working correctly, just need to try to get the warm air to stay in the house and get it to accumulate.  There is a point where things will start to roll and your house temp will increase, which will lead to return air increasing, which leads to warmer supply temps, which leads to even warmer return air....etc  This is the accumulative effect you are shooting for.  Right now it appears you are not at that "over the hump" point.  Until you can get your return air to increase in temp as time goes on, it's going to be an uphill battle.


ok


----------



## brenndatomu

I guess I should have said my peak plenum temps occur at 2, sometimes 3 hours... depending on the load...I would think with a full firebox that 2 hours would do it... 
@JRHAWK9 ?


----------



## ExxWhy

I will defer to those who know better, but that just doesn't seem like much heat is being put out with those temps in the ducts.  I can only wish Gary the best in getting this all worked out.

I have learned something from this thread, will get to work doing some insulation around my sills.


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> I guess I should have said my peak plenum temps occur at 2, sometimes 3 hours... depending on the load...I would think with a full firebox that 2 hours would do it...
> @JRHAWK9 ?



It's been so long since I ran the stock blower setup I don't remember for sure.  With the furnace on high with a full firebox, I'd think anywhere around the 2-5 hour area would work.


----------



## SpaceBus

What's a "normal" burn time coals to coals for a VF100?


----------



## JRHAWK9

ExxWhy said:


> I will defer to those who know better, but that just doesn't seem like much heat is being put out with those temps in the ducts.



Kuuma's heat with lower, consistent, plenum temps.  Even with my slowed down blower speeds, I'm still only seeing max plenum temps of ~125° when running full bore..  When very cold out and I'm running it harder, my plenum temps stay between the 117ish to 125ish area at all times, even between aggressive loadings.  This has heated our not-so-efficient place in below zero temps (-37 one night) 5 days in a row last winter.  There's the other thread in this forum section of a Max Caddy owner wanting 140°+ plenum temps......if I was seeing those kind of plenum temps this furnace would completely heat us out of the house most of the time.  I don't get why there is such a huge difference in plenum temps between these two good furnaces, which, the end result, heat most homes just fine.  @brenndatomu went from a Tundra with higher plenum temps to a Kuuma with lower plenum temps but yet he says the Kuuma has heated his home a little easier even after he added a bit more volume to the space he's heating compared to when he was using the Tundra.  So I get why you see things the way you do.  Maybe the blower on the Kuuma moves more air...?  I really have no idea.  Two good furnaces heating homes two different ways I guess.


----------



## JRHAWK9

SpaceBus said:


> What's a "normal" burn time coals to coals for a VF100?



All depends on how much fuel you add and how far the computer is turned up and how many coals you want to load on.  In my case during mild weather I want to load on minimal coals but on very cold days I load on a fair amount of coals and start pulling them forward an hour or so before loading to get them to burn down faster so I can load faster.

What I use:
4-5 lbs/hr on low
5-7 on medium
7-9 on high.

Just this last weekend we were gone again and I loaded the furnace full (85lbs) right before we left and set it to minimum burn to keep the LP from running.  I got 20 hours of blower run time out of that single load.  Past experience tells me when the blower shuts off there are just enough coals left to reload on.


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> All depends on how much fuel you add and how far the computer is turned up and how many coals you want to load on.  In my case during mild weather I want to load on minimal coals but on very cold days I load on a fair amount of coals and start pulling them forward an hour or so before loading to get them to burn down faster so I can load faster.
> 
> What I use:
> 4-5 lbs/hr on low
> 5-7 on medium
> 7-9 on high.
> 
> Just this last weekend we were gone again and I loaded the furnace full (85lbs) right before we left and set it to minimum burn to keep the LP from running.  I got 20 hours of blower run time out of that single load.  Past experience tells me when the blower shuts off there are enough coals left to reload on, but not an excessive amount


That never happens for me my blower shuts off all the time and it's not ready for wood... Then again mines always cold


----------



## SpaceBus

JRHAWK9 said:


> All depends on how much fuel you add and how far the computer is turned up and how many coals you want to load on.  In my case during mild weather I want to load on minimal coals but on very cold days I load on a fair amount of coals and start pulling them forward an hour or so before loading to get them to burn down faster so I can load faster.
> 
> What I use:
> 4-5 lbs/hr on low
> 5-7 on medium
> 7-9 on high.
> 
> Just this last weekend we were gone again and I loaded the furnace full (85lbs) right before we left and set it to minimum burn to keep the LP from running.  I got 20 hours of blower run time out of that single load.  Past experience tells me when the blower shuts off there are just enough coals left to reload on.


85 lbs of wood would last me three days if weather is above 30df


----------



## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> That never happens for me my blower shuts off all the time and it's not ready for wood... Then again mines always cold



constant cold return air and faster blower speed will do that


----------



## JRHAWK9

SpaceBus said:


> 85 lbs of wood would last me three days if weather is above 30df



yeah, the house got up to 79° that day, but I was aiming at keeping the LP from running, hence I loaded way more than I normally would have for the outside temps.  I knew it was going to overheat the house.


----------



## Woodman1

Is it possible to slow the blower down while at the same time having the furnace set for max output or are they tied together?


----------



## brenndatomu

Woodman1 said:


> Is it possible to slow the blower down while at the same time having the furnace set for max output or are they tied together?


Not tied together at all...unless the plenum temp gets so high that it automatically kicks the blower to high...don't think there is much danger of that here right now...


----------



## Woodman1

I think that would be my next step then.  Somehow get that plenum temp up. Way up if possible.


----------



## JRHAWK9

That would require speed controlling it and I'm not sure it would help in his case.  He already tried running the blower on low to increase is plenum temps and it didn't heat the house any better.


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> That would require speed controlling it and I'm not sure it would help in his case.  He already tried running the blower on low to increase is plenum temps and it didn't heat the house any better.


Very true I would need higher temps with a high amount of air movement


----------



## Woodman1

And that equals more btu's


----------



## Woodman1

We keep going in circles here. Most forced air systems are designed for register temps between 120-140. I just remember when I was looking at geothermal systems I was told expect register temps in the 85-90 degree range. The system was designed to basically maintain, it would take many hours to recover from a temperature set back of a few degrees. Even with very well insulated homes some form of back up was required when temps got down near zero. 

Hopefully something gets figured out here real quick before it gets cold and you actually need some heat. No doubt the rim joists and basement walls will help. Anything you do to insulate and seal will help


----------



## gary38532

Woodman1 said:


> Hopefully something gets figured out here real quick before it gets cold and you actually need some heat. No doubt the rim joists and basement walls will help


yup the way it is now this stove wont do anything come  jan/feb thats what Ive been worried about all along


----------



## Woodman1

I feel for you. I still think the furnace is excellent by design.  I'm sure can be made to work. However, time is not your friend right now. 

If laampa says this is way the furnace is designed to operate at these low output temperatures, your going to need to do a lot more work to your house than simply insulating the rim joists. 

I would be looking for some type of cheap backup plan. Somewhere you could find a inexpensive wood stove that could use that 6" chimney. It could sit right where the kuma is and would buy you some time to get your house in shape. Of course this is worse case senerio, but at this point with what has been gone through, this is where my mind is thinking. I like backup plans. Good luck


----------



## JRHAWK9

Woodman1 said:


> Most forced air systems are designed for register temps between 120-140.



Don't know of a single Kuuma owner who sees that high of plenum temps, much less register temps.  I see into the 120's at the plenum simply because I'm speed controlled and run a very slow blower speed.  Heck, my 75KBTU LP furnace only produces 125° duct temps at around 6' from the plenum......and it's using the slowest tap on the blower motor.  120°-140° at the registers would require a monster wood furnace will a HUGE appetite to be able to convert ~6,500 BTU's/lb of wood into the BTU's required for that kind of register temp.....assuming similar blower speeds/air volume movement.    

Gary's house may indeed need more BTU's than the Kuuma is capable of, all we are trying to do is optimize/figure out things to see if this is the case for sure.  I was able to optimize my Kuuma for my house by making some simple return/supply air changes, the furnace was always producing the BTU's, I just needed to more effectively get them into the house.  Although where I started from was much better than where Gary is starting from.


----------



## Woodman1

JRHAWK9 said:


> Don't know of a single Kuuma owner who sees that high of plenum temps, much less register temps.  I see into the 120's at the plenum simply because I'm speed controlled and run a very slow blower speed.  Heck, my 75KBTU LP furnace only produces 125° duct temps at around 6' from the plenum......and it's using the slowest tap on the blower motor.  120°-140° at the registers would require a monster wood furnace will a HUGE appetite to be able to convert ~6,500 BTU's/lb of wood into the BTU's required for that kind of register temp.....assuming similar blower speeds/air volume movement.
> 
> Gary's house may indeed need more BTU's than the Kuuma is capable of, all we are trying to do is optimize/figure out things to see if this is the case for sure.  I was able to optimize my Kuuma for my house by making some simple return/supply air changes, the furnace was always producing the BTU's, I just needed to more effectively get them into the house.  Although where I started from was much better than where Gary is starting from.



I understand, and I don't disagree. However Gary has been given a early Christmas gift with this beautiful warm weather. It may not last all winter. I think it is time to quit sugar coating this and call it for what it is. Unless he can find a way to raise his plenum temperature I think he may be in trouble come winter.


----------



## gary38532

I do not claim to be a cardboard engineer... is it safe? well it is held together with zip ties and duct tape so I would say yes!


----------



## maple1

I can't see a woodstove doing any better than the VF. If one could be added, that would no doubt help.


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> 120°-140° at the registers would require a monster wood furnace will a HUGE appetite to be able to convert ~6,500 BTU's/lb of wood into the BTU's required for that kind of register temp


I bet my clayton could come close it was set to shut off at 125 plenum temps. As in the forced draft would shut down after 125 was reached


----------



## gary38532

maple1 said:


> I can't see a woodstove doing any better than the VF. If one could be added, that would no doubt help.


I was going to get one and everyone told me not too... I missed the rebate on the stove now so now it would be like 6500


----------



## SpaceBus

gary38532 said:


> View attachment 254096
> 
> I do not claim to be a cardboard engineer... its it safe? well it is held together with zip ties and duct tape so I would say yes!


I hope this helps. I've seen elsewhere on the forums where folks have rigged cardboard for temporary ducts to try and pull warmer return air.


----------



## gary38532

SpaceBus said:


> I hope this helps. I've seen elsewhere on the forums where folks have rigged cardboard for temporary ducts to try and pull warmer return air.


yeah I have my doubts.... the air on the floor of the basement was 66 this morning and thats what it was in the living room also... its not much warmer up high is what I am getting at.


----------



## woodey

gary38532 said:


> View attachment 254096
> 
> I do not claim to be a cardboard engineer... its it safe? well it is held together with zip ties and duct tape so I would say yes!


Maybe some clear plastic taped to the window casing, and is there room for a small fan near the stovepipe to divert some heat towards your return?


----------



## gary38532

woodey said:


> Maybe some clear plastic taped to the window casing and is there room for a small fan near the stovepipe to divert some heat to your return?


worth a shot... Ill do that too


----------



## Woodman1

I was thinking something like this that could crank out some serious btu's that could be used temporarily until he gets the house tightened up


----------



## gary38532

Woodman1 said:


> I was thinking something like this that could crank out some serious btu's that could be used temporarily until he gets the house tightened up


the stove isnt really the problem its the chimney pipe I would need... they want 2500 just to do that.


----------



## SpaceBus

gary38532 said:


> the stove isnt really the problem its the chimney pipe I would need... they want 2500 just to do that.


Yeah, my 26' of class A chimney for my cooker was $2,400 shipped. This was all inclusive for every component for a through the wall setup with a tee.


----------



## gary38532

SpaceBus said:


> Yeah, my 26' of class A chimney for my cooker was $2,400 shipped. This was all inclusive for every component for a through the wall setup with a tee.


This would be like 5 or 10 ft Max I think they know the house is cold so why not make some money


----------



## SpaceBus

gary38532 said:


> yeah I have my doubts.... the air on the floor of the basement was 66 this morning and thats what it was in the living room also... its not much warmer up high is what I am getting at.


I'm not trying to say anything about your character, but I find it hard to believe your concrete floor is the same temp as a timber ceiling. My slab is usually 10-15 df cooler than my ceiling on the first floor. The air space above your furnace should be much warmer than the floor. 

Attached are photos of the floor 9' in front of my cook stove and the ceiling above it. The floor by my sliding patio doors is 50df. The front door (north side) is 45df.


----------



## gary38532

SpaceBus said:


> I'm not trying to say anything about your character, but I find it hard to believe your concrete floor is the same temp as a timber ceiling. My slab is usually 10-15 df cooler than my ceiling on the first floor. The air space above your furnace should be much warmer than the floor.
> 
> Attached are photos of the floor 9' in front of my cook stove and the ceiling above it. The floor by my sliding patio doors is 50df. The front door (north side) is 45df.


Your right.. The air temp in the living room up stairs was the same as the basement floor is what I'm saying


----------



## SpaceBus

Hell, most of my slab is 55-60df. We also removed the 2.5" thick foam that was around the slab due to ant infestations.


----------



## gary38532

I would have to check the air temp at the basement ceiling when I get back home


----------



## gary38532

SpaceBus said:


> Hell, most of my slab is 55-60df. We also removed the 2.5" thick foam that was around the slab due to ant infestations.


Idk maybe it's leaks so bad that all the cold being pulled down to the basement floor


----------



## brenndatomu

Still have the Avalon as a backup...if you get a chimney up for it...


----------



## brenndatomu

I think you'll notice a difference pulling air from the ceiling...just not sure how much...you'll know by Christmas, eh!?


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> I think you'll notice a difference pulling air from the ceiling...just not sure how much...you'll know by Christmas, eh!?



Just as long as that window doesn't leak.  Otherwise he may be pulling in even cooler air.


----------



## brenndatomu

The boiler guys that use storage say it works better to let the water stratify...pulling air from the ceiling potentially let's the coldest air sit on the floor, instead of mixing it in...


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Still have the Avalon as a backup...if you get a chimney up for it...


True


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> I think you'll notice a difference pulling air from the ceiling...just not sure how much...you'll know by Christmas, eh!?


Yes I guess I will


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> Just as long as that window doesn't leak.  Otherwise he may be pulling in even cooler air.


I bet... Nah I know that window leaks lol


----------



## SpaceBus

gary38532 said:


> I bet... Nah I know that window leaks lol


Well there you go. The transom windows are probably half of your issue.


----------



## gary38532

SpaceBus said:


> Well there you go. The transom windows are probably half of your issue.


The windows are only single pane down there but I talked to Dale about that too. He said it doesn't matter the stove will still pull from the easiest path which would be the stair case. I really wish I had actual returns the previous owners didn't bother with them. I'm glad they didn't in a way... it probably wouldn't have been done right.


----------



## SpaceBus

gary38532 said:


> The windows are only single pane down there but I talked to Dale about that too. He said it doesn't matter the stove will still pull from the easiest path which would be the stair case. I really wish I had actual returns the previous owners didn't bother with them. I'm glad they didn't in a way... it probably wouldn't have been done right.


Ha, I know what you mean about things done right. We've spent the last year rebuilding the house due to poor craftsmanship. Those windows are not letting cold air in, but letting the heat out. All the warm air around the ceiling is being convected outside.


----------



## gary38532

SpaceBus said:


> Ha, I know what you mean about things done right. We've spent the last year rebuilding the house due to poor craftsmanship. Those windows are not letting cold air in, but letting the heat out. All the warm air around the ceiling is being convected outside.


Oh I'm sure they don't help... I need to get them replaced


----------



## gary38532

Propane wall heater + full VF100... My hope is the warm air from the propane burner will go up and into the VF100. On a unrelated topic... I was also staining some window trim


----------



## brenndatomu

Woodman1 said:


> Most forced air systems are designed for register temps between 120-140. I just remember when I was looking at geothermal systems I was told expect register temps in the 85-90 degree range.


About the only thing a forced air wood furnace has in common with a fossil fuel furnace is the forced air part.
The fossil fueled unit has a given input and output, and can be dialed in accordingly...but on a wood furnace you are lucky to have the same input/output two minutes in a row.
My Kuuma runs about the lowest duct temps of anything I've run...but it will do it for a long time.
The last few days have been warmer here...40s day, 30ish at night...I've used 8 splits total the last 24 hours...that's two small loads...52-53 lbs of wood total.


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> About the only thing a forced air wood furnace has in common with a fossil fuel furnace is the forced air part.
> The fossil fueled unit has a given input and output, and can be dialed in accordingly...but on a wood furnace you are lucky to have the same input/output two minutes in a row.
> My Kuuma runs about the lowest duct temps of anything I've run...but it will do it for a long time.
> The last few days have been warmer here...40s day, 30ish at night...I've used 8 splits total the last 24 hours...that's two small loads...52-53 lbs of wood total.


The Kuuma holds a lot of wood either way. I use to put a full round wheelbarrow in my Clayton on one load. (it could have held more but I only used the front)  The VF100 takes a level wheelbarrow to get it to full... In a way the VF100 has used more wood then the Clayton this year... it burned two cords so far (Nov-Dec) and never heated the house one day. That same amount of wood in the Clayton would have heated this house for a month. Not just heated I would like to add, warm like a summer day at the beach! If your house cant hold onto the heat the VF100 wastes wood too.


----------



## woodey

brenndatomu said:


> The last few days have been warmer here...40s day, 30ish at night...I've used 8 splits total the last 24 hours.


Similar results here, the other nite at 10PM  I put on 4- 18" splits and a 10" on top,  and 12 hrs later the house was 70 (24 outside)  and had a nice bed of coals to load onto,  heating a large 1867 Circa   Queen Anne/Victorian style house. This with computer and blower on low-I have not moved the lower limit switch from the factory placement and leave it set at 103. It amazes me as to how quickly the blower kicks in after a reload onto coals, usually within 4-5 minutes.


----------



## gary38532

woodey said:


> how quickly the blower kicks in after a reload onto coals, usually within 4-5 minutes.


I would think it would kick in fast when it's made to blow 90 degree air... Mines down there on coals right now still blowing 82 degree air... That some how has to heat my house.... Good luck sealing enough to make that happen


----------



## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> The Kuuma holds a lot of wood either way. I use to put a full round wheelbarrow in my Clayton on one load. (it could have held more but I only used the front)  The VF100 takes a level wheelbarrow to get it to full... In a way the VF100 has used more wood then the Clayton this year... it burned two cords so far (Nov-Dec) and never heated the house one day. That same amount of wood in the Clayton would have heated this house for a month. Not just heated I would like to add, warm like a summer day at the beach! If your house cant hold onto the heat the VF100 wastes wood too.


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


>



haha its true that is funny though


----------



## gary38532

gary38532 said:


> haha its true that is funny though


maybe this is just starting drive me crazy


----------



## SpaceBus

gary38532 said:


> maybe this is just starting drive me crazy


This is my life fixing this house


----------



## gary38532

SpaceBus said:


> This is my life fixing this house


Mine here too Ive been working on this place for 6 years or so it didn't even have running water when I got it.


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> Mines down there on coals right now still blowing 82 degree air...


Yeah you won't get real hot air toward the end...which works for me, let the house cool a bit before reloading...get too hot in here otherwise...not your experience thus far though I know...


----------



## SpaceBus

gary38532 said:


> Mine here too Ive been working on this place for 6 years or so it didn't even have running water when I got it.


Wow, that's about all we had going for us here. Sometimes we get discouraged at how neglected and damaged this house was and the money we've spent fixing it, but it would have cost a fortune to get power, septic, and a well put in on naked land. Once you add in the slab, driveway, and other amenities it wasn't a bad deal. 

I have a feeling you might have R15 in your walls and maybe R19 in the attic area, especially in your addition. The Clayton covered this issue for many years if seems.


----------



## gary38532

SpaceBus said:


> I have a feeling you might have R15 in your walls and maybe R19 in the attic area,


No I seen it with the dry wall down the whole addition is r19 walls roof crawl space everything. Idk what the original house is but I do know the attics is up to your knee if you stand in it.


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Yeah you won't get real hot air toward the end...which works for me, let the house cool a bit before reloading...get too hot in here otherwise...not your experience thus far though I know...


It wouldn't be a big deal if it got it warm to start with. I wouldn't mind using a little electric while it was burning down


----------



## Woodman1

Merry Christmas everyone!! What another beautiful day. So this thread really bothers me because so many things don't add up or make sense. Going back to the details of the Clayton, these are the things that we assume to know. I am going to plug in a 50% effeciency for the Clayton. A seasoned cord of hard maple has a weight of 4900#.  I will figure a optimistic 6500btu per pound at 20% mc. At 50% yields 3250 btu per pound. 

So 4900# * 9 cord * 3250 btu per pound equals 143,325,000 btu's. 

24 hours * 180 days equals 4320 hours

143,325,000/4320 equals 33,177btu average per hour heat loss. Large, yes. Completely ridiculous, no. So what am I missing?

Experienced Kuma guys, what is the Kuma rated for at a 12 hour average on high output? 

And If it truly can't keep up with these current temperatures it seems to me there should be something so grossly wrong with the house it should be obvious. Something like a couple of skylights left open.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Woodman1 said:


> A seasoned cord of hard maple has a weight of 4900#.



IMO, 4,900lbs is a bit much for hard maple.    https://chimneysweeponline.com/howood.htm
Which makes it even more confusing.  Numbers just don't add up.


----------



## gary38532

Woodman1 said:


> If it truly can't keep up with these current temperatures


It's 68 in the house today so it's kind of keeping up today I guess. I got 4 more degrees at the register today with the cardboard.


----------



## SpaceBus

Woodman1 said:


> Merry Christmas everyone!! What another beautiful day. So this thread really bothers me because so many things don't add up or make sense. Going back to the details of the Clayton, these are the things that we assume to know. I am going to plug in a 50% effeciency for the Clayton. A seasoned cord of hard maple has a weight of 4900#.  I will figure a optimistic 6500btu per pound at 20% mc. At 50% yields 3250 btu per pound.
> 
> So 4900# * 9 cord * 3250 btu per pound equals 143,325,000 btu's.
> 
> 24 hours * 180 days equals 4320 hours
> 
> 143,325,000/4320 equals 33,177btu average per hour heat loss. Large, yes. Completely ridiculous, no. So what am I missing?
> 
> Experienced Kuma guys, what is the Kuma rated for at a 12 hour average on high output?
> 
> And If it truly can't keep up with these current temperatures it seems to me there should be something so grossly wrong with the house it should be obvious. Something like a couple of skylights left open.


Yeah, I feel like the house is probably R15 for the majority of the exterior walls. Maybe the addition has good insulation, but it has the crawlspace issue. Between the ducts loosing a bunch of heat throughout the crawl space, the transom windows letting the basement heat out, and 1990 energy building codes it's amazing the Clayton could keep up.


----------



## gary38532

Yes Merry Christmas everyone!


----------



## SpaceBus

gary38532 said:


> It's 68 in the house today so it's kind of keeping up today I guess. I got 4 more degrees at the register today with the cardboard.


That's a significant difference I say. Perhaps you can get a bit of cumulative effect and keep the train going.


----------



## gary38532

SpaceBus said:


> Yeah, I feel like the house is probably R15 for the majority of the exterior walls. Maybe the addition has good insulation, but it has the crawlspace issue. Between the ducts loosing a bunch of heat throughout the crawl space, the transom windows letting the basement heat out, and 1990 energy building codes it's amazing the Clayton could keep up.


The clayton didn't even try to keep it warm unless it was in the negatives but it always got it warm


----------



## gary38532

The addition Deff doesn't have good insulation it's the coldest part of the house always is


----------



## Woodman1

Still doesn't add up. Rated max Kuma output per hour anyone?


----------



## gary38532

Woodman1 said:


> Still doesn't add up. Rated max Kuma output per hour anyone?


I think it's just to slow to heat it up. As it leaks out faster then it comes in from the stove. The clayton would heat it 5 degrees in a half a hour. I know no one believes me but it's true! My freinds can't believe the house is cold now when they come to visit.


----------



## gary38532

Woodman1 said:


> Rated max Kuma output per hour anyone


Dale from lamppa said its about 47k he's said that's real power what you get


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> Yes Merry Christmas everyone!


To you to Gary!


----------



## SpaceBus

gary38532 said:


> Dale from lamppa said its about 47k he's said that's real power what you get


Is that all? My Morso is rated at 28k btu/hr nominal and 34k max. A quick Google search says the Clayton is rated up to 180k.


----------



## maple1

Cant compare ratings. Apples and oranges, no two measured the same.


----------



## gary38532

SpaceBus said:


> Is that all? My Morso is rated at 28k btu/hr nominal and 34k max. A quick Google search says the Clayton is rated up to 180k.


that was the new one mines the older one 160k


----------



## gary38532

maple1 said:


> Cant compare ratings. Apples and oranges, no two measured the same.


Thats what the Lamppa's said they heat and way different ways


----------



## Socratic Monologue

I can't recall -- has the Kuuma been tested with EnviroBricks or the like?  Might help to illuminate the situation by ruling out wood-related issues.  Maybe the MC meter is bad or being used in a way that makes it read inaccurately?  

I know my old HotBlast would easily burn wood that my Tundra chokes on (won't go to secondaries), and I never knew there was an issue with the HB since it never whimpered.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Woodman1 said:


> Still doesn't add up. Rated max Kuma output per hour anyone?



I've burned, on back to back to back days last January when it was well below zero.......206lbs, 206lbs and 190lbs of wood.  Do the math how you like.  I come up with AVERAGING ~45k BTU/hr/day.  1.1+ million BTU's per day.


----------



## SpaceBus

JRHAWK9 said:


> I've burned, on back to back to back days last January when it was well below zero.......206lbs, 206lbs and 190lbs of wood.  Do the math how you like.  I come up with AVERAGING ~45k BTU/hr/day.  1.1+ million BTU's per day.


That would imply during the burn the stove would actually be emitting much more than 45k btu/hr, being pretty much in line with any other stove of the same size. We all have to remember that the stove can only put out as much heat as the stove can hold. Firebox volume is the ultimate comparison tool.


----------



## Woodman1

JRHAWK9 said:


> I've burned, on back to back to back days last January when it was well below zero.......206lbs, 206lbs and 190lbs of wood.  Do the math how you like.  I come up with AVERAGING ~45k BTU/hr/day.  1.1+ million BTU's per day.



Not sure what you are referring to. Yes I agree with your numbers. Looks like 200# works out to roughly 45k per hour. 

What doesn't add up to me is how he was able to heat his house with 9 cord with the Clayton if the house is requiring more btu's than the Kuma can produce.


----------



## Woodman1

According to the Clayton wood usage numbers the average loss is in the low 30's. It seems like he should be having no issue at these temps with a furnace capible of cranking out the mid 40's. Either something changed in the house or he is not getting near peak output.


----------



## SpaceBus

Well, according to Google the Clayton 1802g (I don't know which one Gary has, but that one is discontinued and calls for a 8" flue) has a firebox that's over twice the size of the VF100. So between the lower output/smaller firebox (even if it is more even and useful heat in the long run) and insulation issues, I think we can lay this to rest. Until this evening I didn't realize the Clayton was such a massive stove. 9 cords/winter makes a lot more sense when the firebox is 9 Cuft! I could burn my Morso for three days with one load for that beast.


----------



## SpaceBus

Woodman1 said:


> According to the Clayton wood usage numbers the average loss is in the low 30's. It seems like he should be having no issue at these temps with a furnace capible of cranking out the mid 40's. Either something changed in the house or he is not getting near peak output.


This does make one wonder about wood quality.


----------



## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> I've burned, on back to back to back days last January when it was well below zero.......206lbs, 206lbs and 190lbs of wood.  Do the math how you like.  I come up with AVERAGING ~45k BTU/hr/day.  1.1+ million BTU's per day.


Dale said 47 about right?


----------



## gary38532

SpaceBus said:


> Well, according to Google the Clayton 1802g (I don't know which one Gary has, but that one is discontinued and calls for a 8" flue) has a firebox that's over twice the size of the VF100. So between the lower output/smaller firebox (even if it is more even and useful heat in the long run) and insulation issues, I think we can lay this to rest. Until this evening I didn't realize the Clayton was such a massive stove. 9 cords/winter makes a lot more sense when the firebox is 9 Cuft! I could burn my Morso for three days with one load for that beast.


Its very big!! I'll post pictures of it. I use to crawl inside of it to change fire brick. I never used the whole fire box just 24 inches of it.  My spliter is maxed out at 24! That's how big we are talking. The 1802g is the larger newer one. Mine is the 1800g.


----------



## Woodman1

gary38532 said:


> Dale said 47 about right?



Sounds about exactly right on


----------



## JRHAWK9

SpaceBus said:


> That would imply during the burn the stove would actually be emitting much more than 45k btu/hr



I agree.



SpaceBus said:


> We all have to remember that the stove can only put out as much heat as the stove can hold.



....and physically burn.  Remember, the Kuuma is a bit different, as it just doesn't hang the primary air open.  It keeps the burn regulated for whatever temp you have the computer set to; clean burning is priority numero uno.


----------



## SpaceBus

gary38532 said:


> Its very big!! I'll post pictures of it. I use to crawl inside of it to change fire brick. I never used the whole fire box just 24 inches of it.  My spliter is maxed out at 24! That's how big we are talking. The 1802g is the larger newer one. Mine is the 1800g.


Still, it has much more room for wood assuming you fit as much as you could in There. If I had a firebox like that I'd cut my wood to half the length of the box and double stack.


----------



## SpaceBus

JRHAWK9 said:


> I agree.
> 
> QUOTE="SpaceBus, post: 2406473, member: 62498"]
> We all have to remember that the stove can only put out as much heat as the stove can hold.



....and physically burn.  Remember, the Kuuma is a bit different, as it just doesn't hang the primary air open.  It keeps the burn regulated for whatever temp you have the computer set to; clean burning is priority numero uno.
[/QUOTE]
While yes, I do agree, you can't argue with twice the volume.


----------



## gary38532

SpaceBus said:


> Still, it has much more room for wood assuming you fit as much as you could in There. If I had a firebox like that I'd cut my wood to half the length of the box and double stack.


I could have but it was never necessary a round whell barrow was about what I put in every 12 to 8 hours depending on how cold it was


----------



## gary38532

SpaceBus said:


> ....and physically burn.  Remember, the Kuuma is a bit different, as it just doesn't hang the primary air open.  It keeps the burn regulated for whatever temp you have the computer set to; clean burning is priority numero uno.


While yes, I do agree, you can't argue with twice the volume.
[/QUOTE]
it is a very clean burn... you should see the inside of my firebox like the day it was built almost


----------



## gary38532




----------



## gary38532

the fire brick has to be replaced every year... the way its made the wood drops on them and cracks them down the middle like that


----------



## SpaceBus

gary38532 said:


> it is a very clean burn... you should see the inside of my firebox like the day it was built almost


I bet it is, and I don't dispute you. I'm just seeing now that there is now way the Kuuma could heat Gary's house without significant improvements to his house envelope.


----------



## gary38532

SpaceBus said:


> I bet it is, and I don't dispute you. I'm just seeing now that there is now way the Kuuma could heat Gary's house without significant improvements to his house envelope.


I was telling the truth.... haha The clayton had a lot more power. Not sure how much but I know it was more...


----------



## gary38532

On a positive note it's not that bad in here tonight... The VF100 is doing everything she can at the moment... I'll make the changes necessary to make it better. I want the house to be more efficient and dising the Clayton was the first step to that.


----------



## SpaceBus

gary38532 said:


> On a positive note it's not that bad in here tonight... The VF100 is doing everything she can at the moment... I'll make the changes necessary to make it better. I want the house to be more efficient and dising the Clayton was the first step to that.


Hopefully the cumulative effect of the higher return air temp will get you "over the hump" while you improve the home envelope efficiency.


----------



## gary38532

SpaceBus said:


> Hopefully the cumulative effect of the higher return air temp will get you "over the hump" while you improve the home envelope efficiency.


it should they say they heat houses bigger then mine even drafty ones accord to what I'm told


----------



## gary38532

I'll keep everyone updated as its gets fixed it may take me awhile


----------



## brenndatomu

Researching all this stuff forces you to become a more educated consumer too, even if you don't end up diy'ing everything, it makes it easier to know when a contractor is feeding you a line of bull. And that's always a good thing!


----------



## gary38532

Just thinking out loud here want to here what people think of it... What if I turn the crawl space into a conditioned space. Bought the hot water kit for the vf100 and put a radiant floor in my living room. Not sure if it is even possible just a idea is all.


----------



## brenndatomu

The water coil won't make enough heat to feed a radiant floor...plus it steals a bit of heat from making hot air...but making the crawlspace into conditioned space may not be a bad idea...


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> The water coil won't make enough heat to feed a radiant floor...plus it steals a bit of heat from making hot air...but making the crawlspace into conditioned space may not be a bad idea...


Oh ok


----------



## brenndatomu

Just a wild hail Mary pass here...there isn't a duct that is blowing into an "unheated" space, like the garage, attic, crawlspace, anything like that, is there?


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Just a wild hail Mary pass here...there isn't a duct that is blowing into an "unheated" space, like the garage, attic, crawlspace, anything like that, is there?


No theres ducts that go through unheated spaces but they are insulated. I never try to heat the garage it's hard to heat the house let alone the garage too. It never gets below freezing in the garage anyway good enough for the car if you ask me. When I do use it there's a little electric blower that makes it so you can do the work on the car without gloves or a hat. I do know that the addition requires the most heat. From experience it takes double what the main house requires in the duct. As in a 4in opening in the duct work heats the run that goes to the main house. A 8in to the addition to heat it to the same temp. That's how it was ran with the clayton at least. The VF100 mixes better and they are both wide opened now. The damper in the duct work was added when the clayton was over heating the main house and under heating the addition.


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> I bet... Nah I know that window leaks lol


One thing I did to add a bit of efficiency to the basement windows in the finished part of the basement was to install a piece of plexiglass in the window well...I just cut a piece of plexi that was about 3/8" smaller than the ID of the finished window well (want it to fit kinda snug) wrapped it with foam pipe wrap around the edge and shoved it back into the opening a bit. Seems like it helped some...floor doesn't feel as cold, and don't notice the slight draft in the area when it its windy out now...and there was double pane windows there before too...but I'm not sure how well they are installed, as far as the air sealing...


----------



## TCaldwell

I’m no furnace person but a max rated net output of 47kbtu/hr based the heat loss of the house during mild weather, and not keeping up is obviously depressing.
  In  my house foaming the rim joists and r10 panels on the basement walls made a large difference.  I’d bet tightening the house might get you there but will take some time if your doing this yourself.
 Just a wild thought, you mentioned a stove to get you through while you are insulating but the cost of the flue being prohibitive. Also the wood stove would provide uneven heat output not being consistent enough to determine what your actual deficit is while running the kuma to get you over the hump.
 Could you buy a pellet stove/ direct vent out of a basement window for now, being a metered fuel and able to control the output as you make improvements. Hopefully as you insulate you could keep reducing its output, seeing at what point if possible you wouldn’t need it anymore, then Craigslist it? It would allow you to have a warm house while you work on the improvements, buy some breathing room?


----------



## brenndatomu

As my boss likes to say...just thinking out loud here, so hear me out. And I know that there are a few different well versed boiler guys reading this, feel free to jump in then guys.
I've never tried it, so I may be all wet here, but I wonder what would happen if you ran a duct from the supply plenum to the blower intake to try to keep the return air temp up...kinda like the mixing valve, or return protection valve (correct name?) that the boiler guys use to keep the water coming back to the boiler from being too cold. Does that make any sense at all? Hmm...


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> As my boss likes to say...just thinking out loud here, so hear me out. And I know that there are a few different well versed boiler guys reading this, feel free to jump in then guys.
> I've never tried it, so I may be all wet here, but I wonder what would happen if you ran a duct from the supply plenum to the blower intake to try to keep the return air temp up...kinda like the mixing valve, or return protection valve (correct name?) that the boiler guys use to keep the water coming back to the boiler from being too cold. Does that make any sense at all? Hmm...


I'm willing to try anything at this point so all ideas are good ideas


----------



## SpaceBus

TCaldwell said:


> I’m no furnace person but a max rated net output of 47kbtu/hr based the heat loss of the house during mild weather, and not keeping up is obviously depressing.
> In  my house foaming the rim joists and r10 panels on the basement walls made a large difference.  I’d bet tightening the house might get you there but will take some time if your doing this yourself.
> Just a wild thought, you mentioned a stove to get you through while you are insulating but the cost of the flue being prohibitive. Also the wood stove would provide uneven heat output not being consistent enough to determine what your actual deficit is while running the kuma to get you over the hump.
> Could you buy a pellet stove/ direct vent out of a basement window for now, being a metered fuel and able to control the output as you make improvements. Hopefully as you insulate you could keep reducing its output, seeing at what point if possible you wouldn’t need it anymore, then Craigslist it? It would allow you to have a warm house while you work on the improvements, buy some breathing room?


If coal weren't so hard on most liners I would even suggest a small coal stove to supplement.


----------



## SpaceBus

brenndatomu said:


> As my boss likes to say...just thinking out loud here, so hear me out. And I know that there are a few different well versed boiler guys reading this, feel free to jump in then guys.
> I've never tried it, so I may be all wet here, but I wonder what would happen if you ran a duct from the supply plenum to the blower intake to try to keep the return air temp up...kinda like the mixing valve, or return protection valve (correct name?) that the boiler guys use to keep the water coming back to the boiler from being too cold. Does that make any sense at all? Hmm...


I was thinking about something like this myself, but it sounds like a turbocharger blowing exhaust from the turbine into the compressor, which of course won't work.


----------



## brenndatomu

Interesting...




__





						Foundation heat loss and insulation.
					

Been insulating and air sealing using my smarthphone FLIR to easily find all areas of heat loss.  This flir shot of my foundation wall outside shows how much  heat loss uninsulated  exposed concrete foundations have. It was quite staggering  and all that orange/white is some serious heat flowing...




					www.hearth.com


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Interesting...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Foundation heat loss and insulation.
> 
> 
> Been insulating and air sealing using my smarthphone FLIR to easily find all areas of heat loss.  This flir shot of my foundation wall outside shows how much  heat loss uninsulated  exposed concrete foundations have. It was quite staggering  and all that orange/white is some serious heat flowing...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hearth.com


I still don't know if the bottom half of my house has insulation or not... considering they did not bother sealing any rim joists I highly doubt it. Im waiting for a cold night to check inside with the IR... Pulling return air from up high seems like it helped it was almost 75 in the house today when the temp hit 40


----------



## brenndatomu

I'm not sure that checking on a cold night from the inside will show you anything...if its cold outside its going to show cold above ground, and shortly after going below ground level it will show the temp in the 50's...because that is the ground temp a few feet below the surface...doesn't vary a ton summer to winter, except in the first few feet...and even then it changes slowly over weeks...but only after the air temps really start to average up or down a good bit.
Here in NEO, our frost line is ~36"...in other words, anything buried that needs to not freeze, needs to go 36" or deeper. I personally don't remember the last time the frost was much below 2'...and that is even with the 2 winters in a row we had a few years back that we had the "polar vortex" thing going on...had lots of water main repairs at work those 2 winters, so  we got to dig down through the frost line way more than anybody cared too!

Anyways...looking at an IR pic from the inside I think will look similar, no matter if there is insulation on the outside or not...or at least will not show anything conclusive.


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Anyways...looking at an IR pic from the inside I think will look similar, no matter if there is insulation on the outside or not...or at least will not show anything conclusive.


yes I just tired it... all looks the same so no it wont work... either way I'm starting the rim joist tomorrow I got 2 inch foam board. I might put some fiberglass in after too just for extra I got lots of it just siting in my garage anyway.


----------



## brenndatomu

So you said you have no return ducts, correct?
After studying your pics, it looks like the air has to come through the unfinished part of the basement before it gets to the room where the furnace is? (comes from the left when you are loading the furnace?)
If this is correct, I bet its the unfinished part of the basement that is really sucking up the heat...and I'm wondering if there is a way that you could return directly into the "furnace room"? Floor vent cut into the ceiling? (with damper door and fusible link to meet fire code) Or a short return duct run from multiple return vents from above the furnace room? Or from the other way, to the right? Just throwing out ideas here...

My sister has a long ranch style and the wood furnace supply vents are at one end (close to the furnace) and then the basement stairwell is open at the other end of the house...it works pretty well to heat the whole house...at least until it gets real cold, then they fire up the fireplace insert stove in the family room too (which is the last room on the opposite end, and just beyond that open basement stairwell)


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> So you said you have no return ducts, correct?
> After studying your pics, it looks like the air has to come through the unfinished part of the basement before it gets to the room where the furnace is? (comes from the left when you are loading the furnace?)
> If this is correct, I bet its the unfinished part of the basement that is really sucking up the heat...and I'm wondering if there is a way that you could return directly into the "furnace room"? Floor vent cut into the ceiling? (with damper door and fusible link to meet fire code) Or a short return duct run from multiple return vents from above the furnace room? Or from the other way, to the right? Just throwing out ideas here...
> 
> My sister has a long ranch style and the wood furnace supply vents are at one end (close to the furnace) and then the basement stairwell is open at the other end of the house...it works pretty well to heat the whole house...at least until it gets real cold, then they fire up the fireplace insert stove in the family room too (which is the last room, and just beyond that open basement stairwell)


yes no returns and the stair well is in the middle... none of the basement is insulated though. That includes the finished part. What you see is just drywall nothing is behind it.


----------



## gary38532

This is directly above the VF100.... It also has the open stairwell to get air back from... None of this is my work by the way... I bought the house like this.


----------



## maple1

gary38532 said:


> View attachment 254213
> 
> This is directly above the VF100.... It also has the open stairwell to get air back from... None of this is my work by the way... I bought the house like this.



I'm not a furnace guy - but that has to be one of the oddest looking register setups I've ever seen. Got me wondering what else you have going on there that has you behind lots of 8 balls...


----------



## Gbawol42

maple1 said:


> I'm not a furnace guy - but that has to be one of the oddest looking register setups I've ever seen. Got me wondering what else you have going on there that has you behind lots of 8 balls...



Yup not a hvac guy as well, but I always thought your returns should be on the opposite side of the room as your supply.  Kinda as separated as you can get.  I feel your supply would almost blow right into the return the way it is set up.


----------



## brenndatomu

Surely not going to spread the heat around very well...looks to me like using the stairwell as the return is the better plan...


----------



## maple1

gary38532 said:


> I was going to get one and everyone told me not too... I missed the rebate on the stove now so now it would be like 6500



Not getting any easier to keep track of all these pages, and not sure it was mentioned before or if it was, what was said - but have you considered a mini-split heat pump? Also not sure exactly how your winter climate is, outdoor temperature-wise. But thinking you should be able to get a very good cold climate setup installed for half that amount. And get a/c & dehumidifying for the summer months to boot.


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Surely not going to spread the heat around very well...looks to me like using the stairwell as the return is the better plan...


I always have the two returns there I just keep closed


----------



## maple1

gary38532 said:


> It's 68 in the house today so it's kind of keeping up today I guess. I got 4 more degrees at the register today with the cardboard.



Excuse the multi posts. Catching up a bit after the couple holiday days. This thread is getting into 'epic' territory. 

Did you do anything about that window?

I think I would simply cut a piece of foam board to fit snug in the opening up against the window, and tape around the edges with lots of painters tape to air seal around the edges. Quick & easy, and can be easily un-done after winter is over. Well, I would do that for all those windows you might have, if there are more, but that one is in a bad spot. I think your fancy (lol) return intake might be intercepting cold outside air that might be leaking in the window (I have windows like that in my basement, they're pretty darn leaky) and sucking it in before it hits the basement floor.

I think also maybe your combustion air inlet might be intercepting some of your warmer return air before it gets to your return inlet. Not sure what can be done about that though, quick & easy, without 'real' return air ducting, aside from what you've been doing so far.


----------



## gary38532

maple1 said:


> think I would simply cut a piece of foam board to fit snug in the opening up against the window, and tape around the edges with lots of painters tape to air seal around the edges.


yeah I was thinking the same thing... Iooks like I will be replacing the windows in the spring


----------



## gary38532

maple1 said:


> but that has to be one of the oddest looking register setups I've ever seen.


They did strange things like this all over the house... not just went the furnace... I think they didn't have the money to hire someone so they did the best they could but didn't really know what they were doing.


----------



## SpaceBus

gary38532 said:


> They did strange things like this all over the house... not just went the furnace... I think they didn't have the money to hire someone so they did the best they could but didn't really know what they were doing.


My house was allegedly designed by a very forward thinking (for the 70's) architect, but it seems the local builders didn't execute the plans well. As a  result the house had invisible water infiltration for decades that went unnoticed by the previous owners. Plus the hexagonal Terra cotta tile is tenting in the middle of the room which sucks. I feel your pain, but I'm getting inspired by your determination. I've found four new areas of air infiltration I the last two days.


----------



## gary38532

SpaceBus said:


> My house was allegedly designed by a very forward thinking (for the 70's) architect, but it seems the local builders didn't execute the plans well.


I got a little bit of that going on here too but I'll get it sealed up sooner or later


----------



## brenndatomu

maple1 said:


> Not getting any easier to keep track of all these pages, and not sure it was mentioned before or if it was, what was said - but have you considered a mini-split heat pump? Also not sure exactly how your winter climate is, outdoor temperature-wise. But thinking you should be able to get a very good cold climate setup installed for half that amount. And get a/c & dehumidifying for the summer months to boot.


Still not gonna be cheap to run if the heat wont stay in the house...


----------



## maple1

brenndatomu said:


> Still not gonna be cheap to run if the heat wont stay in the house...



Yes, true, but one strategically placed could likely improve the situation quite a bit. And would likely be cheaper to run than anything else other than wood. Maybe. Depending on local LP prices.


----------



## gary38532

SpaceBus said:


> 'm getting inspired by your determination. I've found four new areas of air infiltration I the last two days


I'm happy to hear that this book we got going here is helping other people then just myself. I just got home from geting the supplies to do the rim joists. I went with 2in ridged foam. Going to do the unfinished part first and go from there.


----------



## Highbeam

gary38532 said:


> I'm happy to hear that this book we got going here is helping other people then just myself. I just got home from geting the supplies to do the rim joists. I went with 2in ridged foam. Going to do the unfinished part first and go from there.


Lots of us following along to learn.


----------



## DuaeGuttae

gary38532 said:


> yeah I was thinking the same thing... Iooks like I will be replacing the windows in the spring



I found this thread about a week ago and read all of it.  Good to see some improvement, though sorry to see that there has been no big reveal that can be fixed.

I have no wood furnace experience and will leave that area alone but thought I’d mention a few thoughts that came to mind as I read the massive thread.

1). Insulation and air sealing pay major dividends all year round.  Good to pursue that no matter what.

2) We replaced windows in our former home and loved them.  In our current home it’s cost prohibitive and was not even recommended by our energy audit.  We have, however, installed interior window inserts (ours are aluminum framed with vinyl sheeting), and this has been an easy way to make a huge improvement in the comfort of our home. 
	

		
			
		

		
	





3). Insulated ducts are great, but have you checked inside the insulation to make sure that your lines haven’t been disconnected or bumped loose at their attachment points?  It sounds as if the BTUs from 2 cords of wood simply have not made it to your living space more than can be accounted for with functional duct work even if it does run through a crawl space.

4) Your idea of turning your crawl space into part of the conditioned envelope sounded great.  I wish we could do that with our attics (where all our ductwork is—it appalls me).

Kudos to you for caring about efficiency, not giving up, and working with the knowledgeable folks on this forum.  I wish you well as you keep on working on it.


----------



## gary38532

DuaeGuttae said:


> We have, however, installed interior window inserts (ours are aluminum framed with vinyl sheeting), and this has been an easy way to make a huge improvement in the comfort of our home


Some of my windows are fogged over so I think I'm just going to replace them all in the spring/summer. The big window in my living room is in nice shape maybe I will put a insert on that one.


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> Some of my windows are fogged over so I think I'm just going to replace them all in the spring/summer. The big window in my living room is in nice shape maybe I will put a insert on that one.


We replaced a bunch of fogged windows a few years back too. They were actually really good windows (Pella) but at around 40 years old, it was time...it was also nice to get rid of the wood frame to paint every few years, and the Pella roll-o-screens too. 
It was amazing how much better it made the house look with fresh windows (had the outside wrapped too)
We also skipped replacing a large picture window because it was fine (and expensive)
I'm glad that I didn't replace them because I thought it was going to help with heating/cooling the house, because it didn't make a lot of difference. I think windows are often oversold for helping with heating/cooling. 
Now if the old windows were elcheapo's, single pane, or poorly installed air leakers, I'm sure it would have been a different story.


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> We replaced a bunch of fogged windows a few years back too. They were actually really good windows (Pella) but at around 40 years old, it was time...it was also nice to get rid of the wood frame to paint every few years, and the Pella roll-o-screens too.
> It was amazing how much better it made the house look with fresh windows (had the outside wrapped too)
> We also skipped replacing a large picture window because it was fine (and expensive)
> I'm glad that I didn't replace them because I thought it was going to help with heating/cooling the house, because it didn't make a lot of difference. I think windows are often oversold for helping with heating/cooling.
> Now if the old windows were elcheapo's, single pane, or poorly installed air leakers, I'm sure it would have been a different story.


hmmm mine are not cheap windows as far as know at least. They are Andersen's windows but original to the house. Some are not sealing up good anymore on top but I put weather striping in yesterday to help with that. I would like new ones not only for the heat but also the look. My sister got new ones in her house last year and they look really nice.  She said she could see the difference in the heat but hers were in much worse shape then mine. On a side note I got half way around the basement today with the foam board. I didn't seal any of them in yet. I figure I will just do them all at once so I can take my time and cut and measure.


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> My sister got new ones in her house last year and they look really nice. She said she could see the difference in the heat but hers were in much worse shape then mine. On a side note I got half way around the basement today with the foam board. I didn't seal any of them in yet. I figure I will just do them all at once so I can take my time and cut and measure.


We added the mullions on ours to give it the divided light look...I like that.
And went with casement windows too...they generally seal better. But our house was built for casement windows though too. (taller, more narrow window openings)

Good call on sealing the foam in later, all at once...once you crack a can open, its best to keep moving. Only have to clean up once that way too.


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> On a side note I got half way around the basement today with the foam board. I didn't seal any of them in yet. I figure I will just do them all at once so I can take my time and cut and measure.


Hopefully you didn't do like I did when I started out...I cut the foam too close to exact size and it made it harder to get the expanding foam in there right. IMO its much easier (and a better seal) to leave a nice gap to fill up.


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Hopefully you didn't do like I did when I started out...I cut the foam too close to exact size and it made it harder to get the expanding foam in there right. IMO its much easier (and a better seal) to leave a nice gap to fill up.


I left like a 1/8in gap little more maybe


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> I left like a 1/8in gap little more maybe


That's what I did too...I ended up going more like 1/4" to 3/8" the whole way around. Just seemed to work better...easier to cut too since you don't have to be so precise. I tend to get a little perfectionistic, even with stuff that just doesn't need it!   
I call it "attention to details"...some would call it OCD


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> That's what I did too...I ended up going more like 1/4" to 3/8" the whole way around. Just seemed to work better...easier to cut too since you don't have to be so precise. I tend to get a little perfectionistic, even with stuff that just doesn't need it!
> I call it "attention to details"...some would call it OCD


Hmm I could take them out and shave some off?


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> Hmm I could take them out and shave some off?


Oh, that's up to you, 1/8" will work, I just thought it was easier to get the spray foam in a larger gap, and then it probably traveled back in further too...which would make a better seal...I'd think...


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Oh, that's up to you, 1/8" will work, I just thought it was easier to get the spray foam in a larger gap, and then it probably traveled back in further too...which would make a better seal...I'd think...


I'll probably pull them


----------



## brenndatomu

Did you see (or feel) any obvious air leak areas? It was cold when I started doing mine and there were a couple spots that really had a lot of cold air coming in...and my rim joist area doesn't have near the gaps I've seen on some other houses!


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Did you see (or feel) any obvious air leak areas? It was cold when I started doing mine and there were a couple spots that really had a lot of cold air coming in...and my rim joist area doesn't have near the gaps I've seen on some other houses!


No not really it was warm today 40 but the house is 75 right now and it's 30 now so it must be helping


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> but the house is 75 right now and it's 30 now so it must be helping


Is that the whole house, or do you have part of it blocked off still?


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Is that the whole house, or do you have part of it blocked off still?


whole house


----------



## SpaceBus

gary38532 said:


> whole house


Sounds like a nice improvement


----------



## gary38532

SpaceBus said:


> Sounds like a nice improvement


yes its getting colder now and the inside temp is going down with it but its still better then where I was. Im going to have the most efficient house in my town in the end. I don't care what it takes its going to happen.


----------



## sloeffle

brenndatomu said:


> I'm glad that I didn't replace them because I thought it was going to help with heating/cooling the house, because it didn't make a lot of difference. I think windows are often oversold for helping with heating/cooling.


Not to veer too far off topic. We are going to be replacing 10 el cheapo single hung windows this winter / spring with a really good Provia R-5 double pane double hung window. I agree with @brenndatomu that windows do not have a great of an ROI as some people make them out to be.

However, we have 6 high end ( R-4 maybe R-5 ) double hung double pane windows in our house addition that never feel cold, have ice on them, or have condensation on them. The windows we are replacing have all of these things. I'd have to think that the cold air coming off of the older windows and dropping to the floor would cause the house to be colder. Will I ever see my $7,000 back, probably not, but everyone I've talked says their house feels "warmer". My feet are always cold so personally I think I'll feel "warmer". I will soon find out......


----------



## SpaceBus

sloeffle said:


> Not to veer too far off topic. We are going to be replacing 10 el cheapo single hung windows this winter / spring with a really good Provia R-5 double pane double hung window. I agree with @brenndatomu that windows do not have a great of an ROI as some people make them out to be.
> 
> However, we have 6 high end ( R-4 maybe R-5 ) double hung double pane windows in our house addition that never feel cold, have ice on them, or have condensation on them. The windows we are replacing have all of these things. I'd have to think that the cold air coming off of the older windows and dropping to the floor would cause the house to be colder. Will I ever see my $7,000 back, probably not, but everyone I've talked says their house feels "warmer". My feet are always cold so personally I think I'll feel "warmer". I will soon find out......


We sprang for Marvin triple pane casement and awning windows with no ragrets, not even a single letter.


----------



## sloeffle

SpaceBus said:


> We sprang for Marvin triple pane casement and awning windows with no ragrets, not even a single letter.


I'm thinking about triples in our kitchenette. It has 4 windows in a very small area and that room is either hot or cold. Triple pane R-9 windows are an extra $130 a piece. I doubt I'd ever get that money back though. You are in a much different climate than what I'm in.


----------



## SpaceBus

sloeffle said:


> I'm thinking about triples in our kitchenette. It has 4 windows in a very small area and that room is either hot or cold. Triple pane R-9 windows are an extra $130 a piece. I doubt I'd ever get that money back though. You are in a much different climate than what I'm in.


We did it more for sound reduction than insulation value.


----------



## Fred61

All good suggestions and I would do them as soon as possible. I DID, come to think of it. I can't put a price on my comfort and the environment, however I don't think that's the problem here.  Whatever it is. it's huge. A low R value window is not going to freeze you out on a 29 degree clear day. Hell, I can shut off my heat during a 30 degree sunny day in the morning and coast all day maintaining 70 degrees throughout the day and I do not have one south facing window.

I don't have the answer but one other thing entered my mind. What is the make-up of the soil in the area of the house? I ask because r it's a well known fact that water or wet soil is a good  conduit for conducting heat away from the foundation. Homes built in sandy well drained areas are noticeable warmer than those built in wicking soil. You can tell which ones they are when you drive by them. Sand equals lousy lawn. Clay or heavy soil equals nice grass. I have nice grass which means I had to do some perimeter work when I first bought the place. Fortunately I have my own backhoe but the trucked in back fill cost a fortune. No regrets!

I went with Low E glass at my previous house and there was a noticeable difference in conductivity. They did however reduce the solar gain.


----------



## brenndatomu

Fred61 said:


> I went with Low E glass at my previous house and there was a noticeable difference in conductivity. They did however reduce the solar gain.


Good point, I went with low E glass too...IMO, that was a mistake this far north. We get no solar gain now.
I feel like we lost more than we gained. If we were further south and ran the AC more, might be a different story.


----------



## SpaceBus

Marvin offers three different low E coatings so we went with low E1 which they claim still allows solar gain. Our sliding glass doors that face south are unfortunately low E3 coated, but we didn't have a choice on that one... They definitely don't let in as much heat as the original non coated doors, but the new doors keep in more heat, let in less air, and aren't cloudy. There are plans for a different setup all together, but that's getting too far off topic.


----------



## sloeffle

@gary38532 how is the insulating going ? And has that helped ?


----------



## gary38532

sloeffle said:


> @gary38532 how is the insulating going ? And has that helped ?


Yep it's ongoing and no it has not helped. I bought a pellet burner for upstairs Harmon p68 still waiting for it though.


----------



## bropp

gary38532 said:


> sorry yes that was the closet one from the stove maybe like 3 feet away


Ok


----------



## motoguy

tagging to read the whole thing.  We have a VF100 in our ~3800 sq ft house (with high vaulted ceilings), and it provides 100% of the heat for the home until the outside temps are in the high teens.  I cannot fathom a VF100 in a home of the OP's sq footage, and it not burning you out.


----------



## gary38532

motoguy said:


> tagging to read the whole thing.  We have a VF100 in our ~3800 sq ft house (with high vaulted ceilings), and it provides 100% of the heat for the home until the outside temps are in the high teens.  I cannot fathom a VF100 in a home of the OP's sq footage, and it not burning you out.


Yeah yeah but its true... the duct work never really gets all to warm... IMO the VP100's are hyped up on here.... they just dont make that much heat. I know what your going to say.... heats my place fine.... well in my case the stove is like the sun inside and the duct work is cool except when the fire is at its peak and even then its not very warm. Its makes 93 degree air that's about it...  my Clayton made much hotter air and it heat the house fast and well. The lamppa burns half the fuel with half the heat. No gains just a trade... less wood for less heat. There lots of other things I hate about the VF100 but the fact that its a poor heater is a good enough for now.


----------



## gary38532

On a side note Im picking up my pellet burner tomorrow... after I get it installed I plan to test both stoves... see which can heat the house better.  If the pellet stove out does the Lamppa then they suck case and point. So time will tell...


----------



## laynes69

There's nothing to do with hype. If you have an evaluation done on a home and it has 100k btu loss and you install a 50k btu furnace, it doesn't mean the furnace is at fault....it's just a misjudgment in choice. It doesn't mean that the furnace or company is at fault. This applies to anything you buy, automobiles, tractors, heaters, etc. I've gone hours with little to no heat in 30 degree weather with a degree or two loss. Oh yeah, and my register temps average around the 90's when the furnace is in operation. It's a case of the improper heater for the home, not the brand or company.


----------



## gary38532

laynes69 said:


> There's nothing to do with hype. If you have an evaluation done on a home and it has 100k btu loss and you install a 50k btu furnace, it doesn't mean the furnace is at fault....it's just a misjudgment in choice. It doesn't mean that the furnace or company is at fault. This applies to anything you buy, automobiles, tractors, heaters, etc. I've gone hours with little to no heat in 30 degree weather with a degree or two loss. Oh yeah, and my register temps average around the 90's when the furnace is in operation. It's a case of the improper heater for the home, not the brand or company.


90s not very warm.... Ive been over this with the blower test before... its not that I wont get one done... its that I cant... no one does them out here where I live... and I got the whole btu rating thing a long time ago... I still say they are hype right up... Its like this... What does god use to heat heaven? well thats a easy question my son... A VF100. hahahaha


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> Its like this... What does god use to heat heaven? well thats a easy question my son... A VF100. hahahaha



That's a good one...Lamppa may want to use it in their ads!
"Even the Lord God Almighty himself chooses Kuuma Vaporfire"


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> That's a good one...Lamppa may want to use it in their ads!
> "Even the Lord God Almighty himself chooses Kuuma Vaporfire"


haha he has my permission


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> That's a good one...Lamppa may want to use it in their ads!
> "Even the Lord God Almighty himself chooses Kuuma Vaporfire"


That would be a good ending on their ads   no doubt


----------



## gary38532

On a serious topic, it is heating good these days in 30. I just turned it down a little... starting to get too warm... I still need lots more for a real winter... and this one was far from what is the norm here in PA.... I'm hoping for good things when I have both stoves in here... and I make improvements over time.


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> On a side note Im picking up my pellet burner tomorrow... after I get it installed I plan to test both stoves... see which can heat the house better.  If the pellet stove out does the Lamppa then they suck case and point. So time will tell...


Thing about a "head to head" test is that you will have the radiant heat from the pellet pig...so it will "feel" warmer to you, at least in that room...radiant heat always "feels" warmer than convective...


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Thing about a "head to head" test is that you will have the radiant heat from the pellet pig...so it will "feel" warmer to you, at least in that room...radiant heat always "feels" warmer than convective...


I plan to push it around with the fan from the VF100 with no fire to help even the playing ground


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Thing about a "head to head" test is that you will have the radiant heat from the pellet pig...so it will "feel" warmer to you, at least in that room...radiant heat always "feels" warmer than convective...


I plan to put the pellet burner in the living room (coldest room in the house)... the most air movement is in there... two of the biggest ducts in the house are in that room... far from a fair test I know...  I still think it will be worth knowing


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> I still think it will be worth knowing


Agreed...will be interesting to hear your results.


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Agreed...will be interesting to hear your results.


Dont worry, you and everyone else will know.... when I do


----------



## laynes69

It's 30 degrees out and 75 degrees in the house with this fire. Blower on low with a 89 degree temp coming from the closet register from the woodfurnace. It will remain this way for at least another hour before I load for bed. Prior to this, I would have had the furnace burning full bore before the improvements to maintain 68 degrees in the house. Yes....tightening a house can make that much difference. Been there...done that!


----------



## gary38532

laynes69 said:


> It's 30 degrees out and 75 degrees in the house with this fire. Blower on low with a 89 degree temp coming from the closet register from the woodfurnace. It will remain this way for at least another hour before I load for bed.


boo I'm only into fires from Kuuma's sorry


----------



## gary38532

32 outside
73 inside
Good till... IDK 10 or 11 at night?... I usually just wait till the coal bed is 4 or 5 inch's wide...


----------



## gary38532

laynes69 said:


> It's 30 degrees out and 75 degrees in the house with this fire. Blower on low with a 89 degree temp coming from the closet register from the woodfurnace. It will remain this way for at least another hour before I load for bed. Prior to this, I would have had the furnace burning full bore before the improvements to maintain 68 degrees in the house. Yes....tightening a house can make that much difference. Been there...done that!


Oh and please don't forget Ive been working on the house every weekend... thats how I got to 73...  My Clayton could have heated the house to 75 with the front door open. I guess I have to let go... don't I?


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> My Clayton could have heated the house to 75 with the front door open


That reminds me of a story my wife tells...she worked as a home health aide years ago...one of the places she stopped sometimes, left their back door open, all the time...so the chickens could come into the kitchen to get their feed and water!


----------



## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> That reminds me of a story my wife tells...she worked as a home health aide years ago...one of the places she stopped sometimes, left their back door open, all the time...so the chickens could come into the kitchen to get their feed and water!


feed and water is not the issue... was it warm?


----------



## gary38532

I don't leave doors open man, never did... Im trying to make a point... it was that much over kill I could have...


----------



## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> feed and water is not the issue... was it warm?


Dunno...I suspect it was summer when she was stopping there.


gary38532 said:


> I don't leave doors open man, never did... Im trying to make a point... it was that much over kill I could have...


Oh I know...never thought you did leave the door open...now, a window, maybe  
That's why they call them "windowstats"


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## gary38532

brenndatomu said:


> Dunno...I suspect it was summer when she was stopping there.
> Oh I know...never thought you did leave the door open...now, a window, maybe
> That's why they call them "windowstats"



 at this point when you spend 10k and the house is cold you got to laugh...


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## Case1030

gary38532 said:


> at this point when you spend 10k and the house is cold you got to laugh...



No doubt, I don't blame a guy for being frustrated. Especially after all the trouble your going through.

All said and done, in hind sight could have had an indoor boiler with storage inside your garage and heated it with the radiant heat while keeping a comfortable house temperature.

That's the crap shoot with this game lol. Try to make an investment, save money and it comes to shoot back in the foot.

I think your new Harmon pellet stove will definitely heat your upstairs. We used to have one in the same position, and location that my tundra sits. It's a corn/pellet Harmon stove and it kept the place toasty on low.

Out of all the pellet stoves I have used (ex. Kozi, james town, drolet, englander, trager.) Harman out performed maintenance wise, and pellet consumption was much lower than the other brands. The PF 100 Harmon pellet furnace was by far the best. The drolet eco 65 is an absolute pellet pig far as I'm concerned.

Good luck and let us know your results.


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## gary38532

Case1030 said:


> No doubt, I don't blame a guy for being frustrated. Especially after all the trouble your going through.
> 
> All said and done, in hind sight could have had an indoor boiler with storage inside your garage and heated it with the radiant heat while keeping a comfortable house temperature.
> 
> That's the crap shoot with this game lol. Try to make an investment, save money and it comes to shoot back in the foot.
> 
> I think your new Harmon pellet stove will definitely heat your upstairs. We used to have one in the same position, and location that my tundra sits. It's a corn/pellet Harmon stove and it kept the place toasty on low.
> 
> Out of all the pellet stoves I have used (ex. Kozi, james town, drolet, englander, trager.) Harman out performed maintenance wise, and pellet consumption was much lower than the other brands. The PF 100 Harmon pellet furnace was by far the best. The drolet eco 65 is an absolute pellet pig far as I'm concerned.
> 
> Good luck and let us know your results.


I will and thats just what I have into the VF100... I got another 5k into the pellet burner... plus all the insulation which I haven't added up yet


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## gary38532

Thats what you get when you buy a VFcold... I could have left my old set up alone and not spent anything and been warm!


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## gary38532

I would have burned alot more wood yes.... someone find me 15k worth of wood to make it worth my money and time...


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## JRHAWK9

laynes69 said:


> It's 30 degrees out and 75 degrees in the house with this fire.



Your quote works for me too!


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## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> Your quote works for me too!
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 256268
> 
> 
> View attachment 256269


You cant brag in 30... I can let the stove go out in that temp


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## gary38532

Keep it 75 in 0.... with no help!


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## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> You cant brag in 30... I can let the stove go out in that temp





It was in response to laynes post.  I just thought it was a neat coincidence.  Different parts of the country with the same outdoor/indoor temps with a similar fire state at the same time.


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## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> It was in response to laynes post, which he must have deleted.  I just thought it was a neat coincidence.  Different parts of the country with the same outdoor/indoor temps with a similar fire state at the same time.


I just want to see those indoor temps in 0 is all.... with no help


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## gary38532

Last winter... Clayton 1800 no help!


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## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> Keep it 75 in 0.... with no help!





gary38532 said:


> I just want to see those indoor temps in 0 is all.... with no help




0° is not an issue.  Will 76° at -14° work for ya.....




How about 68° IN THE MORNING towards the end of the burn when it's -37° out. 




It's pointless to compare two different houses with two different heat loads.  Our place is not very efficient, but nothing like yours is.  Either your place loses a ton of heat or the setup/dynamic is just not optimal.


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## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> 0° is not an issue.  Will 76° at -14° work for ya.....
> 
> View attachment 256270
> 
> 
> How about 68° IN THE MORNING towards the end of the burn when it's -37° out.
> 
> View attachment 256271
> 
> 
> It's pointless to compare two different houses with two different heat loads.  Our place is not very efficient, but nothing like yours is.  Either your place loses a ton of heat or the setup/dynamic is just not optimal.


oh bullshit you told me you use propane after 68


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## gary38532

you said you must have had one wet split in the mix


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## gary38532

it doesn't count if it not nothing but wood...


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## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> oh bullshit you told me you use propane after 68



huh???  You've got the wrong guy.  I'm not motoguy, in case you didn't notice.  I've never said such a thing.  I heat 98%+ with wood.  

This is from last winter:


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## gary38532

JRHAWK9 said:


> huh???  You've got the wrong guy.  I'm not motoguy, in case you didn't notice.  I've never said such a thing.  I heat 98%+ with wood.
> 
> This is from last winter:
> View attachment 256274


please don't make me go and find it...


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## gary38532




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## gary38532

would you like me to keep looking?


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## JRHAWK9

gary38532 said:


> please don't make me go and find it...



I know how I heat my house.  Yes, the LP is set to kick on at 68°.  I thought you were trying to tell me I heat with LP to get the house above 68°.  Looking back at my records the LP did run for 86 minutes total the morning of the 31st when it was -37°.  This was in between the night and morning load. 

This is the one I posted above, which you think I'm BSing you on.  
1/20/19....no LP used. 





One from 2016, no LP used:




LP furnace ran for a TOTAL of  111 minutes from the 24th through Feb 1st.  The night load of the 26th is when I had a bad load (piece of wet wood) which caused the house temp to drop and LP to kick in.

Here were the temps of those days:

24th:  HI:  21°,  LOW: 2°...........no LP help
25th:  HI:  2°,  LOW: -10°...........no LP help
26th:  HI:  6°,  LOW: -18°...........bad night load, LP ran 25 minutes
27th:  HI:  5°,  LOW: -9°...........no LP help
28th:  HI:  14°,  LOW: 1°...........no LP help
29th:  HI:  4°,  LOW: -15°...........no LP help
30th:  HI:  -11°,  LOW: -30°...........no LP help
31st:  HI:  -3°,  LOW: -37°...........LP ran 86 minutes in between night and morning load
1st:  HI:  14°,  LOW: -8°...........no LP help

I used a total of $1.52 of LP (1.5 gallons) over that stretch, based on furnace runtime. 

Bottom line is, since I installed the Kuuma, over the past almost 6 heating seasons, I am heating 99%+ with wood when we are home.  Over the past four heating seasons (when I started to keep track of supplemental LP use vs LP used when not home) we have used a TOTAL of 9 gallons of LP to supplement our wood heat when the house temp dropped below 68° on very cold mornings.  That's an average of 2.25 gallons of LP a winter.  Still don't believe me, well that's not my problem.  




gary38532 said:


> would you like me to keep looking?



sure, I'd love for you to, but I'd rather have you stop posting when you can't seem to control your alcohol consumption.  Posting when under the influence is generally not a good idea, makes it seem like you have a split personality disorder or something.    I laugh, but it's actually kinda sad.  It's very noticeable in type when you are on the sauce.


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## JRHAWK9

Our house is not efficient either....used to use 1,200-1,300 gallons of LP a year to keep the place 68°.  This was averaged over 6 years of strictly LP use.

Just got back from a weeks vacation last night and put the LP thermostat at 55° while we were gone.

Here's some data from while we were gone:

I did not load the Kuuma before we left.

My plenum temp probe is on top of the Kuuma's plenum, when the LP furnace kicks in, even though the powered damper closes and blocks off airflow to the Kuuma/probe, it still warms up the Kuuma plenum a bit. This is how I was able to tell when the LP furnace kicked in. The graph looked like saw teeth. The colder it was outside the closer together the "teeth" LOL Meaning the furnace was kicking in more often.

This graph is from a ~25 hour period ending on Jan 30th. Each spike in temp represents when the LP furnace kicked in. I had 6 of these graphs to look through over the time we were gone.  Outside temps ranged from 19° at the beginning of the graph to a high of 27° back down to 22° at the end.






LP ran for a total of 1,458 minutes keeping the house at 55°. Outside temps ranged from high teens to low 30's. Looking at my graphs while we were gone, the furnace kicked it a total of 193 times!! House coasted down for a day or so from it being in the 70's.  It first kicked in at 9:45pm Jan 24th and the last time, before I remotely set the temp at 70° three hours before we got home, was at 7pm on Jan 30th. We got home about 10pm on the 30th and I immediately made a fire and turned the heat off. So the furnace actually ran a total of 1,638 minutes, but 180 of those minutes were from raising the house temp from 55° to 70° (which it still was not 70° in the house when we got home....it was 67°).

So....over those 141.25 hours (8,475 minutes) when the house was being kept at 55°, the furnace ran for 1,458 minutes. 75KBTU/hr LP furnace and 91,500 BTU's/gal. If my math is correct, this comes out to an average of almost 13,000 BTU's/hr GROSS to keep the house at 55° at those previously mentioned high teens/low 30's outside temps.  We have a 90% LP furnace.


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## gary38532

OK... I got the part that your trying to discredit me and thats OK I didnt come here to make friends. I think I said all I'm going to here. Thanks


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## woodey

gary38532 said:


> IMO the VP100's are hyped up on here


Sorry you are not yet getting the results you had hoped for. In my opinion the Kuuma is "under hyped". I had high hopes for this furnace when buying it, and it has exceeded all expectations I had.  I am heating a large circa 1867 house. Last nite  at 11pm   I put on four 5-7" splits with temps at 22.  By morning the temps had fallen to 16, threw on 4 more splits at 9am. and the house holding at a comfortable 68. Good luck going forward.


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## gary38532

woodey said:


> Sorry you are not yet getting the results you had hoped for. In my opinion the Kuuma is "under hyped". I had high hopes for this furnace when buying it, and it has exceeded all expectations I had.  I am heating a large circa 1867 house. Last nite  at 11pm   I put on four 5-7" splits with temps at 22.  By morning the temps had fallen to 16, threw on 4 more splits at 9am. and the house holding at a comfortable 68. Good luck going forward.


Thank you for saying so... I'm not talking about it on here anymore though. When people start making things personall that's were I'm drawing a line. I emailed the web master of this site this morning and asked to have my account removed.


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## brenndatomu

gary38532 said:


> I emailed the web master of this site this morning and asked to have my account removed.


Well, now I'm disappointed too. 
You come on here bellyaching about a first rate machine that is not working right because the (not so) "professional"  install was botched, and the homes heat load is way above and beyond what said machine is capable of dealing with...you get a ton of good advice, make some changes, (and get some improvements) then bail out before the end of the story!
If you have a problem with someone, just click on the members username and hit the ignore button for that member, then you won't see their posts...don't punish yourself and the rest of us because you were offended...I say "yourself" because you are the one that will be missing out on some really great free advice...instead of the 2cnd rate help you have been paying for locally!
Hope you hang around...if not, best of luck with things.


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## Case1030

JRHAWK9 said:


> Posting when under the influence is generally not a good idea, makes it seem like you have a split personality disorder or something.  I laugh, but it's actually kinda sad. It's very noticeable in type when you are on the sauce.



Sure @gary38532  is frustrated, but he definitely didn't deserve this statement.


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## Brokenstone

IMO an apology is owed.


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## Socratic Monologue

JRHAWK9 is a very helpful poster here (in this thread, as well as in the rest of the forum), and did not deserve to get poked repeatedly, nor accused of BS.   He was being mistreated, figured out the reason for it, and said so.


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## JRHAWK9

Case1030 said:


> Sure @gary38532  is frustrated, but he definitely didn't deserve this statement.





Brokenstone said:


> IMO an apology is owed.





Wait a sec.  Someone goes on a drunken rant accusing me of making chit up and I call him out on it, provide actual data and I need to apologize.      The truth hurts sometimes and I will not apologize for speaking the truth and for the return of the aggressive rhetoric.  I don't take being told I make things up lightly.  If someone can't take the heat, they shouldn't have lit the match.  

My initial post was a light-hearted response to someone else who happened to be a few states away with the same indoor and outdoor temps with similar end of burn coals at the exact same time.  Thought it was a neat coincidence, and was all I was trying to convey.  Then someone comes along and wants something different, implying how it's not possible or how I can't provide it.  I provide it and then he tells me I'm making it up.  Knowing he was on the sauce by now I shouldn't have taken the bait, but I did.  I do regret taking the bait, but I wanted to clarify the facts and provide data for anybody who maybe reading this post later doing their own research on furnaces....instead of reading a bunch of useless rants and opinions by someone who was obviously not in a good head space.


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## Case1030

JRHAWK9 said:


> Wait a sec.  Someone goes on a drunken rant accusing me of making chit up and I call him out on it, provide actual data and I need to apologize.      The truth hurts sometimes and I will not apologize for speaking the truth and for the return of the aggressive rhetoric.  I don't take being told I make things up lightly.  If someone can't take the heat, they shouldn't have lit the match.
> 
> My initial post was a light-hearted response to someone else who happened to be a few states away with the same indoor and outdoor temps with similar end of burn coals at the exact same time.  Thought it was a neat coincidence, and was all I was trying to convey.  Then someone comes along and wants something different, implying how it's not possible or how I can't provide it.  I provide it and then he tells me I'm making it up.  Knowing he was on the sauce by now I shouldn't have taken the bait, but I did.  I do regret taking the bait, but I wanted to clarify the facts and provide data for anybody who maybe reading this post later doing their own research on furnaces....instead of reading a bunch of useless rants and opinions by someone who was obviously not in a good head space.



@JRHAWK9 I don't think you understand the point. For one, you (nor I) know if @gary38532 was drinking or not. You were up as late if not later than he was posting (possibly also drinking).

Gary and myself have PM'd a few times and his frustration were in the making and was not directed towards any individual member.

Either way to bring mental illness as a way to argue is a sensitive topic for many, and shouldn't be used in that context.

I'd be upset to if i were in his position considering he was following all the advice that was given. (No ones fault ofcourse that it didn't work out) but the fanboy attitude I believe rubbed him the wrong way.


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## webfish

Well this is done.


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