# NC educators leaving the state



## begreen (Apr 19, 2014)

Quelle surprise. Treat the teachers like crap and they decide to leave in droves. How is this good for a state?
http://wunc.org/post/alarming-number-teachers-resigning-wake-county


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## Mrs. Krabappel (Apr 20, 2014)

It's less people to fire when the privileged kids have their charter school and everyone else is at home learning from an iPad


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## Lake Girl (Apr 20, 2014)

No incentive for advance degrees?  No benefit for dedication to a job = years of experience?

How do they determine teacher excellence?  A test taken by students?  Can be statistically skewed in so many ways ...

Not surprising there is a mass exodus with no job security and very little if any incentive.


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## begreen (Apr 20, 2014)

Lake Girl said:


> No incentive for advance degrees?  No benefit for dedication to a job = years of experience?
> 
> How do they determine teacher excellence?  A test taken by students?  Can be statistically skewed in so many ways ...



An ignorant electorate is much easier to manage.


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## Lake Girl (Apr 20, 2014)

Just for fun I was poking around looking at starting salaries by capital (Edit: not capitals - just large) city/state, NC is at the bottom of the pile from the few that I checked ....
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Elementary_School_Teacher/Salary  With the wages they offer, they won't even get the mediocre as those teachers with half a brain will move on to better job markets.

Yeah, the politicians seem to be saying the right things about keeping costs down but you always have to look under the surface to find the undercurrents they are not sharing ...

Why is this relevant?  Daughter is dating a young man from SC and just graduated from University of Winnipeg, Manitoba with a B Ed. - not sure if it is heading to long term relationship but...  Luckily, she has no debt - planning on Mom/Dad's part and some part-time work from her   Starting wages in Canada are over the median wages in most of the states.  As I look at the wages there, I wonder how long it takes teachers to pay back those loans ...

Curious - what wage level is the poverty line in the US?


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## webbie (Apr 20, 2014)

Pay doesn't always equate with teacher quality - but you have to give them (the good ones) reasons for staying.

That is, many private schools, like our local Friends Schools, don't pay that well - but the teachers have a lot of freedom on how to teach. I suppose the same is true for many private schools.

Public schools differ, but it seems to me that forcing teachers to be more "production line" would make them want more salary and benefits. At least that's how I would feel. Our local highly rated schools back in NJ (wealthy area) had a number of good teachers, but when some of them made "political" mistakes, even the best were shown who was boss (the admin and the school board, etc.). I remember when "everybody's favorite teacher" of 25 years experience was sent out to the woodshed for some ridiculous reason. Because of union rules, they could not fire her but they made sure she couldn't enjoy doing what she did. 
Another of my kids faves was targeted by Falwell and crew for a case that almost went to the SCOTUS. 
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Teach...peech+in+the+classroom,+federal...-a020587689

I have no problem with the eventual ipad apps for learning....in many cases of the rote subjects, they will do a great job. But where does the inspiration come from? Hopefully the ipad apps will have an animated Ben Franklin talking to them about his inventions!


I'm fine with a future that has fewer teachers.....but higher quality ones. Large institutions move very slowly, but most futurists know that education needs to be revolutionized. In the Steve Jobs book it mentions that he felt the ipad would help....and may have even got involved in this if he lived.


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## Mrs. Krabappel (Apr 20, 2014)

Craig, what you are failing to see is that funding will still be spent at the same level for that kid learning from an ipad.    The difference in $$ will go into the pocket of a private corporation.   I believe that education needs a revolution, but not in the direction we are headed.     

Pay doesn't assure quality in most areas.  I've worked for total morons who make bank.    In education you don't get to apprentice.  You have to bring your A game every single day, starting with day 1 on the job.     In addition, we are the crux of the community. We do so much more than teach.     I'd love you to spend a day at my school so you could point our the low quality teachers.  I cannot find them.   Even ones who are not necessarily fabulous in front of the kids play important roles otherwise, like being the one who knows how to teach programming and runs the robotics club. 

Private schools don't have to teach everybody.  You cannot compare.


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## firefighterjake (Apr 20, 2014)

Folks who complain about teachers making too much money, having the luxury of so much time off or having great pensions should spend a week or so in their local school . . . it would be eye opening.

It really is quite different from the school that most of us remember . . . a lot more "problem" or "special needs" students, lots of mandated tests and today's teacher/school nurse/counselor truly does a lot more than just teach these days.


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## begreen (Apr 20, 2014)

They certainly should get higher pay than the politicians. They are far more important to our greater good.


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## Lake Girl (Apr 21, 2014)

webbie said:


> ...I'm fine with a future that has fewer teachers.....but higher quality ones. Large institutions move very slowly, but most futurists know that education needs to be revolutionized. In the Steve Jobs book it mentions that he felt the ipad would help....and may have even got involved in this if he lived.



Pay doesn't always equate with teacher quality but, there will be winners and losers in that scheme based on unidentified factors (see article)  ... not necessarily good or bad teachers.  Should teachers that miss the "mark," whatever that mark may be, be punished for not being a teacher that "adds value" per assessment?  What about intangibles?  What about teachers that are consistently good but not the best?  No wage increases and no stable contracts?  What kind of environment will be created when teaching becomes a competition not a cooperative effort?  http://wunc.org/post/ranking-teachers-nc-bets-big-complicated-stats-model

As to "production line", if ranking is based largely on student assessments you get teaching to the test - not very creative.  I've done the drill of testing (NY State Regents diploma) but is it the teacher's fault that I didn't get physics?  (I did pass though)  I've also seen the other extreme of educational experiment - "whole language" in Ontario was a bust and left a large group of children lagging in spelling and writing skills.  My two oldest sons were part of that one .  I spent a lot of time proof reading ... not all parents can or will do that.

The "technology" experiment is still unfolding ... brain changes have been identified by Harvard researchers but the jury is still out on whether that is a positive or negative.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...ging-way-brains-work-says-neuroscientist.html

The ipad concept has proven helpful in many areas but is not always effective when you have 30 kids that are 6 years of age - smaller class size or teacher assistants are a whole lot more realistic.  Oh - but they're not included in the assessment - how are those teachers rated?  What about each child's own learning style?  Creative abilities?  Do those suffer because of reliance on technology and assessment? That's not even considering children with learning disabilities, behavioral problems, or issues at home ... those all present challenges in the classroom.  Technology may be able to help in some aspects of a classroom but it is not the whole answer.

And what does reliance on technology and "value added" assessment say about the value of human contact and socialization?  I've worked with teens and young adults with the disabilities, problems and issues ... a person who has empathy, pays attention, discusses problems/solutions and has realistic expectations for that child makes a huge difference.  After that, you can start building mastery of skills....

I'm not impressed with the NC plan...

Edit:  Mrs. K - just realized you're in the line of fire - good luck!


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## Beer Belly (Apr 21, 2014)

I work for a school system, and I can tell you that teachers earn their pay.....their day does not end when the bell rings, some work on grading papers, and classroom planning till late into the night. I wondering if these teachers have a union or a contract for fair wages.


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## Jags (Apr 21, 2014)

I am sure for several different reasons that it can't happen, but I have wished for a few years now that Mrs. K would give a truncated version of the trouble/solution that the fine folks in the trenches would like to see implemented.

Our school systems are not doing justice to the students (and teachers).  I am fully convinced that throwing money at the schools (in most cases) isn't going to fix the underlying problems.  Why isn't anybody asking the teachers???  How did the final product (student) get less education than those of yesteryear?  It ain't right.

If you have a problem with your car you ask your mechanic.
If we are have problems with education/students - ASK A TEACHER.


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## Grisu (Apr 21, 2014)

Jags said:


> I am sure for several different reasons that it can't happen, but I have wished for a few years now that Mrs. K would give a truncated version of the trouble/solution that the fine folks in the trenches would like to see implemented.
> 
> Our school systems are not doing justice to the students (and teachers).  I am fully convinced that throwing money at the schools (in most cases) isn't going to fix the underlying problems.  Why isn't anybody asking the teachers???  How did the final product (student) get less education than those of yesteryear?  It ain't right.
> 
> ...



Simple: Fix the kids' homes and many "school" problems will be solved. If you have shoddy built car, don't expect your mechanic to fix that either.


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## Jags (Apr 21, 2014)

Grisu said:


> Simple: Fix the kids' homes and many "school" problems will be solved. If you have shoddy built car, don't expect your mechanic to fix that either.



I understand that this is an issue, but by far, not the only one.


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## begreen (Apr 21, 2014)

Since when is fixing family dysfunction simple? It often goes on for generations. Good schools and teachers are often where the pattern finally gets changed.


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## Grisu (Apr 21, 2014)

begreen said:


> Since when is fixing family dysfunction simple? It often goes on for generations. Good schools and teachers are often where the pattern finally gets changed.



Simple referred to identifying the real problem; was not meant to imply that fixing that would be a piece of cake. However, reducing wealth inequality could go a long way to better education success:







Look how students from low income families fall behind when not in school (yellow circles = summer vacation):






PISA math scores also have a negative correlation with economic equality: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4x6nQ8j5f.../sbiarRYvSH0/s1600/pisa_income_inequality.png


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## Lake Girl (Apr 22, 2014)

Beer Belly said:


> I work for a school system, and I can tell you that teachers earn their pay.....their day does not end when the bell rings, some work on grading papers, and classroom planning till late into the night. I wondering if these teachers have a union or a contract for fair wages.



No longer have tenure and pay raises are based on legislated child assessment system ... http://wunc.org/post/school-boards-challenge-elimination-teacher-tenure

Assessment has its place to ensure that school systems are meeting the benchmarks but they do not identify why those benchmarks may not be reached.  Increased class size, loss of teacher assistants, higher rates of learning disabilities and behavior issues, loss of family economic security to name a few. 

Teachers are constantly being stripped of power over what goes on in their classrooms - can't give zeros, can't fail students.  This is just another way of undermining them further - strip them of economic security.  How does that help NC maintain the teachers they do have much less attract "the best"?  Student enrollment of teacher education programs is down too.  Sad state of affairs for education in NC ...


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## DBNH22 (Apr 23, 2014)

Beer Belly said:


> I work for a school system, and I can tell you that teachers earn their pay.....their day does not end when the bell rings, some work on grading papers, and classroom planning till late into the night. I wondering if these teachers have a union or a contract for fair wages.




Eh that is an an untrue blanket statement.  The side that sticks up for the teachers screams when anyone makes blanket statements criticizing all teachers.  I don't like to hear about how all teachers work so hard or love the kids so much because it's just not true.  Many teachers are doing nothing more than going through the motions and collecting a paycheck.  Many other teachers are just not good teachers.    With the teaching profession, as with any other profession, there are some who are very competent and passionate and others who just plain suck.

I think merit pay and the ability to fire bad teachers would go a long way to improve the public education system.  However the teachers unions aren't going to let that happen any time soon.  The teachers unions are the main reason why our public education system in this country is in such pitiful shape.

Also, if you're someone like me, who is fairly traditional and conservative it's also disturbing to see teachers and administrators, whose salaries I pay for in part through my property taxes, injecting their personal political views into all aspects of the public education system.  Another thing is when schools try to play doctor by labeling certain kids with ADHD and pressuring parents to put their children on drugs like ritalin or adderal.  Congress passed a law several years ago pertaining to this but it still goes on at schools.

In any event is it any wonder that pretty much all parents with the financial means to avoid the public school system by sending their kids to private schools do so?


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## Jags (Apr 23, 2014)

Dana B said:


> In any event is it any wonder that pretty much all parents with the financial means to avoid the public school system by sending their kids to private schools do so?



Another blanket statement that is simply not true.  The public school system that gets my cash is pretty darn high on the list of best schools in the state.  That includes private schools.  Constantly ranking in the top 10.  Yep - a little ole country school.  Their biggest enemy is folks moving to the area for the "school system" and then try to change things.  It seems that many parents don't hold little Jimmy and Kimmy accountable like the (our) school system does - and they think it is too rigid or tough. 

Tough cookies - they can conform or leave.  Their choice.

Edit: I personally heard the argument from a set of parents that they had to help their kids with homework just to get a passing grade.  Really?  Tough.


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## Beer Belly (Apr 23, 2014)

How would they rate a teachers ability to teach, if you have students who just don't get it.....students scores could be due to the students just not performing as they should.....you can bring a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. I agree, that some teachers are just going thru the motions, but I know a lot that are in our building till 9pm grading papers, and meeting with others planning classroom studies....not to mention meeting with parents. Unions have their place when it comes to fair wages and treatment, but in most cases they are used to defend those who should otherwise be gone.


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## DBNH22 (Apr 23, 2014)

Beer Belly said:


> How would they rate a teachers ability to teach, if you have students who just don't get it.....students scores could be due to the students just not performing as they should.....you can bring a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. I agree, that some teachers are just going thru the motions, but I know a lot that are in our building till 9pm grading papers, and meeting with others planning classroom studies....not to mention meeting with parents. Unions have their place when it comes to fair wages and treatment, but in most cases they are used to defend those who should otherwise be gone.




Obviously you'd have to look at a teacher's results over a period of years with many different students (as with any study the larger the sample size the more accurate the picture that's painted)  And of course there are hard working dedicated teachers who genuinely care about their students.  As for the unions though, their priority is their own survival and power, not the teachers, the students or the quality of our education system.


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## DBNH22 (Apr 23, 2014)

Jags said:


> Another blanket statement that is simply not true.  The public school system that gets my cash is pretty darn high on the list of best schools in the state.  That includes private schools.  Constantly ranking in the top 10.  Yep - a little ole country school.  Their biggest enemy is folks moving to the area for the "school system" and then try to change things.  It seems that many parents don't hold little Jimmy and Kimmy accountable like the (our) school system does - and they think it is too rigid or tough.
> 
> Tough cookies - they can conform or leave.  Their choice.
> 
> Edit: I personally heard the argument from a set of parents that they had to help their kids with homework just to get a passing grade.  Really?  Tough.




 You're kidding right?   You can cherry pick a decent public school here or there but the vast majority of parents would jump at the chance to send their kids to private school.  it's like all the big mouthed hollywood actors/politicians talking about how great public school teachers and schools are yet they send their own kids to private schools.  Can you say hypocrite with a capital H?


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## Jags (Apr 23, 2014)

Dana B said:


> You're kidding right?



No.  This is not the only example of a high performing school in my area.  Most of them would be considered rural by most standards.


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## begreen (Apr 23, 2014)

Too many blanket statements here. Improving education is a non-trivial problem. To blame it all on the teachers, unions, administrators is finger-pointing and not a solution. For sure parents are also a large part of the problem or solution. We are fortunate in our very small rural community to have a school system that works and place in the top 20 of the state consistently. I attribute part of this to an understanding that teaching is a community effort. Our teachers get a lot of support and help from the community and that makes a big difference.


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## DBNH22 (Apr 23, 2014)

My point was that if you took a random sampling of 100 parents from different parts of the country whose kids are currently in public schools and gave them the option of their children attending a private school instead the vast majority of them would most likely take you up on the offer.  Most people view the private school option as superior to the public school system as a general rule.


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## begreen (Apr 23, 2014)

That is often dependent on area demographics. If you are in a poor area then of course a parent is going to want a better option for their child's education. Most parents have this choice, but you've left out an important variable, cost. At what cost would they choose this option?

The other reason for opting the private choice unfortunately in some areas is racially or religiously motivated. Race and class have a lot to do with private choices.


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## begreen (Apr 23, 2014)

Frontline did a good program on this topic. It's a complex problem, often regional and the answers are not simple. The Frontline article is here:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/vouchers/howbad/crisis.html


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 23, 2014)

One teacher in the article complains of making 20K less than california. Not surprising at all. Im sure the cost of living in the same house in  NC is 20K less (or more)than california. Also the 2 teachers with the 6 jobs and cant make their payments? Payments on what? Article does not say.Teachers i my small town are not going anywhere. They live in the best houses ,drive the best cars, make the most money and get their generous yearly raises without fail since i was little.
All while the rest of the town that looks like theres a depression going on,struggles with the yearly increase in property taxes. So bash away at me  people for this post ,cuz all teachers are NOT suffering.


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## begreen (Apr 23, 2014)

Yes, as they noted there is a huge difference sometimes in school systems just 10 or 20 miles apart. It depends in large part on what the parents choose and can afford to pay. Our real estate taxes just took a big jump for a new high school. That is not going to happen for a lot of inner city schools.


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## DBNH22 (Apr 23, 2014)

Seasoned Oak said:


> One teacher in the article complains of making 20K less than california. Not surprising at all. Im sure the cost of living in the same house in  NC is 20K less (or more)than california. Also the 2 teacher with the 6 jobs and cant make their payments? Payments on what? Article does not say.Teachers i my small town are not going anywhere. They live in the best houses ,drive the best cars, make the most money and get their generous yearly raises without fail since i was little.
> All while the rest of the town that looks like theres a depression going on,struggles with the yearly increase in property taxes. So bash away at me  people for this post ,cuz all teachers are NOT suffering.




Teachers often have annual automatic raises written  into their union contracts.  Like other public employees they also often make much smaller contributions to their benefits packages than most private sector employees.  Then they have the nerve to turn around and cry poorhouse half the time.  i guess someof them just don't realize how insulting it is to the parents that pay their salaries through property taxes.  You know the parents that don't have tenure, a union that makes it next to impossible for them to get fired no matter what they do, or automatic annual raises.


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## DBNH22 (Apr 23, 2014)

begreen said:


> Frontline did a good program on this topic. It's a complex problem, often regional and the answers are not simple. The Frontline article is here:
> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/vouchers/howbad/crisis.html




The suburbs vs inner cities are night and day not just in the school system but in pretty much every other aspect of life.  But to say that because our suburban public schools are so much better than our inner city public schools really says nothing at all with regard to comparing public schools to private schools.   How many times have any of us heard a parent happy or excited about the chance to send their kids to public schools instead of private school when both options were available?  I'd venture to say that none of us has every experienced that.  On the other hand I'm sure we all know a few families who've scrimped and did whatever they could so that little Johnny or Jane could go to that expensive private school two towns over rather than the local public school.  On the whole private school are viewed as better because they are better.  Does that surprise anyone when we examine how the public schools and private schools operate?  Private schools rely primarily on tuition and philanthropy to stay in business.  They must provide a service that the parents believe is worth paying good money for or they will cease to exist.  Public schools on the other hand are funded by the coercive power of government.  they don't really have to meet any expactations to expect to continue to receive funding.  It's always been there and always will be.  There's no financial motivation to be better.


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## begreen (Apr 23, 2014)

> Teachers often have annual automatic raises written into their union contracts.


Is this a general case in your area? Not so in WA state.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 23, 2014)

I often hear the unions here compare their salaries to those in philly and big city schools as a justification for yearly raises. Thats apples to oranges IMO.
The cost of living and the quality of life are much different in big city schools. Although they often make that argument,i dont see anyone pulling up stakes and moving to philly. In fact we have a lot of former philly residents moving here.


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## begreen (Apr 23, 2014)

Dana B said:


> How many times have any of us heard a parent happy or excited about the chance to send their kids to public schools instead of private school when both options were available?



We were happy to have our kids going to our local schools, it is in part why we moved here. If private, who is paying the tuition and how many parents don't choose this option because they can't afford it?

Financial motivation is not what makes a great teacher. If that was so we would have terrible teachers here.


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## begreen (Apr 23, 2014)

Seasoned Oak said:


> The cost of living and the quality of life are much different in big city schools. Although they often make that argument,i dont see anyone pulling up stakes and moving to philly. In fact we have a lot of former philly residents moving here.



My nephew moved to Philly from Boston last year. So far he loves it.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 23, 2014)

Private school teachers around here make a small fraction of those in public school. In fact that where many with a teaching degree wind up if they dont happen to have a relative on the school board and dont want to leave the area.


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## Warm_in_NH (Apr 23, 2014)

4 of my best customers are teachers. They're the ones spending the money when no one else had any. Lots of money on wants not needs.
Sorry the teachers in the story can't make ends meet, they're obviously living beyond their means. Happens to people in all walks of life who don't have a basic understanding of income vs. expenses.  Will probably happen to them again.


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## begreen (Apr 23, 2014)

I suspect that northeast teachers are better paid on average. Our local teacher's salaries look more like the national average for private schools. Most of the teachers I know have their spouse working too. They live ok on two incomes, but not better than us. Teachers are human beings, not saints. BTW, wasn't it considered by some a patriotic duty to consume just a decade ago? I don't subscribe to that pov but do remember this being the mantra.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 23, 2014)

Ironically we are cutting the size of the police force due to budget cuts 
in this area while crime rises, while it seems our school board doesnt operate on the same planet. The school budget is always a couple million more each year in amid declining enrollment in a small town and the school still has 15 administrators.


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## DBNH22 (Apr 23, 2014)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Ironically we are cutting the size of the police force due to budget cuts
> in this area while crime rises, while it seems our school board doesnt operate on the same planet. The school budget is always a couple million more each year in amid declining enrollment in a small town and the school still has 15 administrators.




That's probably because every year they're screaming that they need more money by playing on people's emotions.  "it's for the kids."  Honestly who wants to look like the jackass saying no to a bunch of kids.   The truth is that those of us in the private sector have been forced to do more with less but the government never has to.


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## begreen (Apr 23, 2014)

Again a blanket generalization. Our teachers took a pay cut as state revenues decline during the last recession.


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## DBNH22 (Apr 23, 2014)

begreen said:


> Again a blanket generalization. Our teachers took a pay cut as state revenues decline during the last recession.




  did they take it willingly or were they forced to take it kicking and screaming the whole way?


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## Jags (Apr 23, 2014)

Dana B said:


> did they take it willingly or were they forced to take it kicking and screaming the whole way?



Who willingly takes a pay cut?


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## DBNH22 (Apr 23, 2014)

Jags said:


> Who willingly takes a pay cut?




Good point but at least when you're in the private sector your employer is paying your salary and not the taxpayers.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 23, 2014)

Dana B said:


> did they take it willingly or were they forced to take it kicking and screaming the whole way?


A pay cut would never pass muster around here.


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## begreen (Apr 23, 2014)

Dana B said:


> did they take it willingly or were they forced to take it kicking and screaming the whole way?



The cuts were large and across the board. There was some complaint from the teachers, but nothing major. It was a pretty dire situation for a couple years.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 23, 2014)

begreen said:


> Again a blanket generalization. Our teachers took a pay cut as state revenues decline during the last recession.


That would not happen around here. It is only the size of the increase that is up for discussion. I guess it depends on the school board makeup.
Ours is mostly retired teachers and teachers spouses. The fox is guarding the hen house.


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## begreen (Apr 23, 2014)

WA state teachers are state employees. Their salaries are not determined by local school boards. Interestingly it is rare to have more than one or two teachers at any time on our local school board.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 23, 2014)

I do think its a very honorable profession. Its the best gig around here,if you can get it. But at some point budget realities and the local economies must play a part in salaries. That is if they insist on making the local economies foot the bill.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 23, 2014)

begreen said:


> WA state teachers are state employees. Their salaries are not determined by local school boards. Interestingly it is rare to have more than one or two teachers at any time on our local school board.


I think thats a better formula. Our state hands down a lot of regulation and even salary recommendations but expects the locals to pay for it all. If the state wants to dictate everything, thats fine with me but let them pay for it.


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## DBNH22 (Apr 23, 2014)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I do think its a very honorable profession. Its the best gig around here,if you can get it. But at some point budget realities and the local economies must play a part in salaries. That is if they insist on making the local economies foot the bill.



Professions aren't honorable or dishonorable.  Individuals are.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 23, 2014)

Dana B said:


> Professions aren't honorable or dishonorable.  Individuals are.


Good point.


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## Jags (Apr 23, 2014)

Dana B said:


> Professions aren't honorable or dishonorable



Tell that to a judge.


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## Adios Pantalones (Apr 23, 2014)

North Carolina- 1st in flight, 47th in education.

I don't have kids in school, just bad jokes.


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## DBNH22 (Apr 23, 2014)

I think teachers are one of those professions, like attorneys or the police where a few bad apples that do some very bad or dumb things tend to color the entire profession in the minds of many.   I'll often read some news story about something happening at a public school that sets me off and then I forget that there some very decent, caring individuals in the public school system.  But when push comes to shove the notion that anyone other than my wife or I should have any significant input into how my children are raised is probably the worst possible button anyone could push with me.  As I see it the public school system is more apt to exhibit disrespect toward and infringe upon parental rights than the private school system.


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## Beer Belly (Apr 23, 2014)

class sizes also come into play in quality of education.....I'm sure most of the private schools have more reasonable class sizes.


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## Jags (Apr 23, 2014)

Beer Belly said:


> class sizes also come into play in quality of education.....I'm sure most of the private schools have more reasonable class sizes.


as is most likely the case of rural schools.  My local school has an average class size of 13 students.  When I graduated we had 11 (in 8th grade).


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## Mrs. Krabappel (Apr 23, 2014)

Warm_in_NH said:


> Sorry the teachers in the story can't make ends meet, they're obviously living beyond their means. Happens to people in all walks of life who don't have a basic understanding of income vs. expenses.  Will probably happen to them again.



There is so much misinformation on this thread.  I will start with this one.  I am one of those teachers mentioned.  I buy everything second hand except food and underwear.  I drive a 10 year old truck and consider it new.  I don't own cable, an expensive phone plan,  clothes dryer, furnace, dishwasher, bathtub, or microwave.  I grow a garden and have chickens and bees. I hand split scrounged wood.   I spent my spring break learning how to re-wire my 100 year old house because that is the only way it's going to get done.   Even then, I don't know how will afford the wire once I use up what I found at the pawn shop.  I absolutely live beyond my means.  I would like you to tell me where else I can cut so that I can live below my means.   I tried to increase my salary by completing my ninth year of college, but that didn't happen.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 23, 2014)

Edit :Ms krabapple. What is the salary for a NC teacher if you dont mind my asking?  Im sure its more than mine and i have all those things you mentioned except TV Cable.
EDIT: Average NC teacher salary is $45,700 .   Way more than mine.


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## begreen (Apr 23, 2014)

That seems kind of personal. There are a lot of other factors than salary involved. Mortgage size, property taxes, education debt, single mom, savings for college are some variables.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 23, 2014)

begreen said:


> That seems kind of personal. There are a lot of other factors than salary involved. Mortgage size, property taxes, education debt, single mom, savings for college are some variables.


Salaries are not determined by ones debts or bills.


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## begreen (Apr 23, 2014)

No but one's remaining cash on hand sure is. The point being simply that not every teacher is living beyond their means due to frivolous spending. My son is getting by on a whole lot less than that too. But he rents and is saving nothing. 

PS: Your edited question is better put.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 23, 2014)

Mrs. Krabappel said:


> I tried to increase my salary by completing my ninth year of college, but that didn't happen.


With that kind of education you could be a doctor. Or at least the school principal. Edit: $45k is about what the avg salary around here and every teacher i know is doing quite well on it.
Moving to a better paying district is an option but not one without other risks.


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## begreen (Apr 23, 2014)

You would think, but NC just cut off teachers at the knees. Alas, as she has mentioned in other threads, she's looking at a career outside of the education system. Too bad, I'm willing to bet she's a damn fine science teacher.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 23, 2014)

Best regards Ms K to whatever you decide. 9 years is an impressive resume.


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## Warm_in_NH (Apr 23, 2014)

Mrs. K, I read the article and saw no mention of numbers or percentages. I figure if they took a job and built a life around their salary, they should be able to maintain at the very least, if you then added several more paying jobs between the two of them, it leads me to believe that they increased expenses beyond their income and are trying to catch up. With an article that mentions no numbers, percentages, etc... one can only draw their own conclusions.

I in no way meant any disrespect towards teachers, nor do I feel that they don't deserve to be fairly compensated for their work. I have no intention of arguing this point with you as I'm a contractor in NH and you're a teacher in NC.

My views are based on what I see in NH and what I read in the article. One friend is a high school teacher and a coach here, he dries a $50,000 truck, new snow machine, newer Harley, and two scooters, has a nice house, and his wife works part time. My other buddy makes $87,000/yr. as a college professor, plus all his benefits, plus his extra pay for "workshops", plus his sabbatical that allowed him to travel the world (again), and he is constantly complaining that he's on the short end of the stick. That's what I'm tired of hearing.

I apologize that I wrongly applied my knowledge of my region and the opinions that were formed from my experiences to a situation that you appear to be living first hand. I wish you the best of luck (sincerely), I've lived on the edge, I know it's no fun.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 23, 2014)

Warm_in_NH said:


> One friend is a high school teacher and a coach here, he dries a $50,000 truck, new snow machine, newer Harley, and two scooters, has a nice house, and his wife works part time. My other buddy makes $87,000/yr. as a college professor, plus all his benefits, plus his extra pay for "workshops", plus his sabbatical that allowed him to travel the world (again), and he is constantly complaining that he's on the short end of the stick.


One thing for sure is having a college degree in any profession does not always equate into a good financial manager. I have friends who make as much as 160K a year. And they are always broke.


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## Mrs. Krabappel (Apr 23, 2014)

When you read about average salaries, that number includes everyone's salary like the superintendent who makes quadruple that and all the other well paid downtown folk.  That salary is much bigger than mine.  Much bigger even than my friend who has taught for 25 years.  But thank you for your kindness and concern.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 23, 2014)

Mrs. Krabappel said:


> When you read about average salaries, that number includes everyone's salary like the superintendent who makes quadruple that and all the other well paid downtown folk.  That salary is much bigger than mine.  Much bigger even than my friend who has taught for 25 years.  But thank you for your kindness and concern.


If thats the case, then it seems you are quite underpaid. A science teacher with your education level could command a much higher pay in a great number of areas. Possibly not anywhere in NC unfortunately. Come on up to PA, we would be glad to have you.
P.S. My daughter is currently planning a  teaching career. But i would probably have to win a seat on the school board to get her in the local school.


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## Mrs. Krabappel (Apr 23, 2014)

Yes I have only personalized this thread because there are so many personal and incorrect assertions towards teachers and the OP was written about NC. In a handful of regions people are paid what they are worth.  Not here.  My assistant principal, who makes $15k more than I, Has a wife who cuts hair and makes substantially more than he does.  In fact my mechanic drives a nice truck and makes a good living but I have yet to see him criticized for that, even when he raises rates.  My own father, who barely finished 8th grade, makes 250k between his DOD pension and his DOD contract work.  Nobody has ever questioned his salary, work ethic, or ability to live within his means .


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 23, 2014)

Seems you picked the worst state to work in at your chosen profession Mrs k.  Theres probably about 49 better options.


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## DBNH22 (Apr 23, 2014)

Mrs. Krabappel said:


> Yes I have only personalized this thread because there are so many personal and incorrect assertions towards teachers and the OP was written about NC. In a handful of regions people are paid what they are worth.  Not here.  My assistant principal, who makes $15k more than I, Has a wife who cuts hair and makes substantially more than he does.  In fact my mechanic drives a nice truck and makes a good living but I have yet to see him criticized for that, even when he raises rates.  My own father, who barely finished 8th grade, makes 250k between hid DOD pension and his DOD contract work.  Nobody has ever questioned his salary, work ethic, or ability to live within his means .




I think there are a few reasons why teachers may singled out for criticism.

1.  You deal with people's kids and sometimes there are contentious issues that arise.  It's a very senstive subject dealing with others' children.

2.  You salary is paid for in part by tax revenue.  This makes some more inclined to criticize you than a mechanic whose salary is paid for by his customers who've chosen to go to his shop.

3.  It's a demonstrable fact that our public education system is in a sorry state of affairs compared to other westernized nations.  Our students consistently rank well below many other nations.  Whether or not is their fault in total or in part teachers are a logical target when seeking to place blame for this phenomenon.

4.  Many feel that the teachers who do complain about money yet talk about their passion for the job and love of the kids should shut up and continue teaching or do something else.


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## Warm_in_NH (Apr 23, 2014)

I would never criticize anyone for driving a nice truck. But I'll tell ya I don't want to hear your hardship story in one ear while you're rambling off about your new obnoxious ride in my other ear. I also don't want to hear you're short changed as an educator while you're being paid very well and own a very nice home in NH and three others in FL. Certain professions seem to come with a sense of entitlement that I guess I'll never understand.

Most contractors in my area, myself included, haven't been able to raise our rates in several years, the market hasn't supported it, many fellow business owners have gone under and lost everything, sad.


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## begreen (Apr 23, 2014)

"Seems you picked the worst state to work in your chosen profession." Contractors out here seem to raise their rates monthly.

Yeah, that was a parody of SO's comment. There are lots of reasons why one chooses an area to live and work in. No need to defend that choice. NH is a beautiful state. So is NC.

FWIW it looks like PA is the second highest state for teacher's pay.
http://www.takepart.com/photos/average-teacher-salary-by-state-teachers-salaries


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## Mrs. Krabappel (Apr 23, 2014)

Jags said:


> I am sure for several different reasons that it can't happen, but I have wished for a few years now that Mrs. K would give a truncated version of the trouble/solution that the fine folks in the trenches would like to see implemented.
> If you have a problem with your car you ask your mechanic.
> If we are have problems with education/students - ASK A TEACHER.


Jags, I appreciate this sentiment.  Certainly teachers are frustrated daily when decisions are made by either folks who have spent no time in the classroom, or by folks who have done poorly in the classroom so they are promoted to administrative roles.  I have many ~subversive~ ideas about education and they include more body movement, more integration of subjects, more relationships with industry, more access to pertinent equipment, and less testing.


Dana B said:


> The side that sticks up for the teachers screams when anyone makes blanket statements criticizing all teachers.


You have some kind of personal issues here so I’m going to suggest you go get a beer or take a hot bath. Reading my replies won’t help, so I’m not writing them for you.  I’m clarifying for others who might buy your slanted hyperbole. I do suggest you visit a local school and spend some time in a classroom so you can make some more realistic observations.  At this job, it is impossible to “go through the motions” when you deal with upwards of 200 people and make thousands to millions of personal interactions every day.

Poor teachers can and do get fired.  The protection that teachers get is only to provide them with due process.  In other words, you cannot fire someone just because you want to hire a cheaper newer teacher.  You have to show cause.  Merit pay is idealistic, but difficult to qualify.  How do you compare the biology teacher to the media specialist?  How do you compare the Speech pathologist to the math teacher?  Additionally, how do your account for the teachers in the low income areas whose kids score poorly.  I have taught in inner city Los Angeles.  I have taught at more affluent schools.  Same teacher.  Same subject.  Far different scores.  In the end, testing companies are making buckets of money with the same tax dollars you abhor putting towards a teacher salary.

Schools don’t label kids with ADHD.  Ever.  This comes from an outside doctor referral.

My kids spend far, far more time listening to the political views of their peers (and therefore- peers parents) than they ever hear about mine.  This is true across the board, though there are certainly exceptions.

The vast majority of parents send kids to their neighborhood school, even when there is a choice.  The statistics do not support your assertion that if parents can, they place their kids in a different school.  If It’s one of the reason free charter schools become more like a private school.  But that’s a topic for another day.   

 Many of my students drive their own brand new cars past the private school every day on their way to my public school.  I've talked to many parents who are very pleased with the switch from private school.  I would venture to say that, with a few exceptions, parents have been pleased with the teachers and the schools at which I’ve worked.  Heck, I learn and grow every single day when surrounded by the thinkers and doers that I work with.  The private schools do have the advantage of smaller numbers and families who value education.  They don’t waste time with kids who have special needs or behavior issues.  I went to a little catholic school and, well, that’s a story for another time.

It’s true that NC has lower property taxes than other areas.  Most other costs-to-live are about the same.

It’s disingenuous to assert that the economy has not impacted teachers.  If you have been paying any attention at all, you  might have noticed that  cuts have changed the climate of education in the last five years.

US schools are not failing.  https://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/97oct/fail.htm


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## Mrs. Krabappel (Apr 23, 2014)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Seems you picked the worst state to work in at your chosen profession Mrs k.  Theres probably about 49 better options.


 
When I moved here from Hawaii we were about halfway in teacher pay.   As mentioned in the article, this has changed drastically.    Many teachers I worked with now drive over the border to South Carolina (!), Tennessee, or Georgia for a 10,000 raise.  It's sad that a link to the article outlining the unconstitutional steps our general assembly has made has just provided folks an opportunity to pile on whiny, overpaid, underworked teachers.

As BeGreen Mentioned, I'm working on other options.  I have decided to stay put for a bit, but will be joining the mass teacher exodus once I finish my master's degree in biology.


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## begreen (Apr 23, 2014)

Your corner of NC is God's country. It is a beautiful and special location. Too bad that politics is screwing with a good life decision.


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## Mrs. Krabappel (Apr 23, 2014)

Yes we have built a good life here, and my son has gotten a first class education by hard working, caring, effective teachers


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## tfdchief (Apr 23, 2014)

I taught high school Biology in IL for 7 years.  I loved teaching but saw I was going to go nowhere.  So I moved on.  Sad that our teachers are not more secure.  They are so important.


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## DBNH22 (Apr 23, 2014)

Mrs. Krabappel said:


> Jags, I appreciate this sentiment.  Certainly teachers are frustrated daily when decisions are made by either folks who have spent no time in the classroom, or by folks who have done poorly in the classroom so they are promoted to administrative roles.  I have many ~subversive~ ideas about education and they include more body movement, more integration of subjects, more relationships with industry, more access to pertinent equipment, and less testing.
> 
> You have some kind of personal issues here so I’m going to suggest you go get a beer or take a hot bath. Reading my replies won’t help, so I’m not writing them for you.  I’m clarifying for others who might buy your slanted hyperbole. I do suggest you visit a local school and spend some time in a classroom so you can make some more realistic observations.  At this job, it is impossible to “go through the motions” when you deal with upwards of 200 people and make thousands to millions of personal interactions every day.
> 
> ...




You pretty much offered up the the company line on every issue regarding teachers and the public school system so I won't respond to any of your responses to what you've deemed my "slanted hyperbole" save one.  That one being your assertion that schools don't label kids with ADHD.

Being a teacher I'm sure that you're familiar with Teenscreen?  For those other posters and readers that may not have heard of Teenscreen it is a now defunct suicide and depression screening program that was devised by David Schafer, a Columbia University psychiatrist with strong financial ties to pharmaceutical companies (he was on their payrolls).  The program consisted of a questionaire that was a frequently administered to teenagers by public high schools without parental consent or even notification.  The questionaire was a very basic and generalized series of questions and more often than not indicated that the teen was suffering from depression or was even suicidal.  

Here is a link to the story of Aliah Gleason and the horror she went through thanks to taking the Teenscreen survey.

If you really want to get into it I'd be more than happy to explore the truth of the matter with you regarding my so called slanted hyperbole and your boilerplate teachers' woe is us talking points.


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## Lake Girl (Apr 24, 2014)

Dana, it wasn't the school or the teachers, from the article
" Bush Administration's 'New Freedom Initiative' -  a  program designed to subject every school age child in this country to psychological testing."  Wow- what a rotten program.  Big Pharma lobbyists at their finest...  As to ADHD diagnosis and Ritalin prescription, that's from a Psychiatrist not a teacher.

Mrs. K, glad to hear you are still working on the Master's - even though NC doesn't recognize the extra work and money that goes into that effort.

For those that haven't looked further, NC wages for teachers are 46th in the nation.  No monetary benefit to getting a Master's degree in NC.  One teacher, who has a master's degree and received the teacher of the year award, still lives in her parent's basement after 3 years of teaching in NC.  She's paying back her student loans ... What's the going rate for 6 years of university?  (Sorry no links about this teacher, website was down for maintenance)

If you had a Bachelor's degree, what would you expect for your starting salary?  If you had a Master's, would you expect some additional pay?  I know I would - at least so I could recoup the extra money spent.

I recall reading that NC has a voucher system for private schools, supports charter schools.  Dollars that would go into public school education are getting shifted away to other options.

Edit:  The $$s by state - total, per student, average teacher salary.  Interesting comparison of $ per student by state...  page 85  http://www.nea.org/assets/img/content/NEA_Rankings_And_Estimates-2013_(2).pdf


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## Lake Girl (Apr 24, 2014)

*Teacher pay by the numbers: *


Under the current state base pay scale, it would take a teacher 16 years to reach a $40,000 salary.
North Carolina school teachers have only seen one one raise since 2008, which was 1.2 percent.
Governor Pat McCrory and legislative leaders recently pledged to raise salaries for teachers early in their careers to $35,000.
http://wunc.org/post/16-years-reach-40000-salary-considering-pay-incentives-nc-teachers


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## woodgeek (Apr 24, 2014)

A large study by the Ed Dept in 2006 showed that test scores of (non-parochial) private school students and public school students, as a group, were within the noise of each other.  Parochial schools as a group showed lower scores.
Two differences:
--the public school cannot turn anyone away....private schools can and do throw out weaker students to improve their metrics.  With the above, this suggests public schools are doing a better job.
--Public schools don't advertise.  Private schools do.  That alone will make most folks 'know' they must be better.  Add in the confirmation bias associated with shelling out big $ for tuition, and now you have an army of advocates.

Bottom line: the best public schools are as good or better than the best private schools.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 24, 2014)

The economy has not been nearly as kind to my profession and others in Pa. possibly with the exception of teachers and more so school administrators. If not for the fact that i have become debt free, i would be hurting badly. Some of my friends in the business have gone under. Seems all the bad decisions made by local, state and fed govts have been piled onto RE owners in the form of yearly tax increases,sewer fees and inspection & permit charges. Mostly i just collect money from ever poorer tenants and home purchasers, just to pass it on to local taxing bodies,  sewer plants, and code inspectors. The share i get to keep gets smaller and smaller while expenses go up and up.  Fact is all states are NOT equal. Mrs k has a right to complain about her low salary. Pa teachers , not so much.


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## DBNH22 (Apr 24, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> A large study by the Ed Dept in 2006 showed that test scores of (non-parochial) private school students and public school students, as a group, were within the noise of each other.  Parochial schools as a group showed lower scores.
> Two differences:
> --the public school cannot turn anyone away....private schools can and do throw out weaker students to improve their metrics.  With the above, this suggests public schools are doing a better job.
> --Public schools don't advertise.  Private schools do.  That alone will make most folks 'know' they must be better.  Add in the confirmation bias associated with shelling out big $ for tuition, and now you have an army of advocates.
> ...




The government run Dept. of Education conducted a study that showed government run public schools are better than private parochial schools?  Why is that not surprising?  I guess all the parents out there that are spending tens of thousands of dollars each year so that their kids may go to private schools rather than public schools are ignorant fools just wasting their money.


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## btuser (Apr 24, 2014)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Private school teachers around here make a small fraction of those in public school. In fact that where many with a teaching degree wind up if they dont happen to have a relative on the school board and dont want to leave the area.


You can say the same thing about cops and fireman. Investment bankers too.

My wife had to fight off 3 other candidates for her job as an art teacher. All three were daughters of teachers/administrators, upset because they were "promised" the job.  It got nasty when they started slandering my wife, saying she wasn't qualified as an alt( unimportant jargon) "too voluptuous" (my favorite!) to teach young boys and 1/2 dozen other BS reasons.  They dug through 4 years of paperwork trying to find something before she found out and threatened to complain.  

The final straw was an email from a "concerned" parent that came from one of the moms home email.  It was dropped after that.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 24, 2014)

btuser said:


> All three were daughters of teachers/administrators, upset because they were "promised" the job.  .


Its a safe bet in this town an "outsider" doesnt have a chance against relatives of board members. Im not sure why retired teachers and teacher spouses are even legally allowed on school boards, as its a clear conflict of interest IMHO.


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## woodgeek (Apr 24, 2014)

Dana B said:


> The government run Dept. of Education conducted a study that showed government run public schools are better than private parochial schools?  Why is that not surprising?  I guess all the parents out there that are spending tens of thousands of dollars each year so that their kids may go to private schools rather than public schools are ignorant fools just wasting their money.



Exactly.  Imagine if they poured those resources into their local public schools....

The Ed study was commissioned by the previous administration and 'buried' when the findings came in the way they did.


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## btuser (Apr 24, 2014)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Its a safe bet in this town an "outsider" doesnt have a chance against relatives of board members. Im not sure why retired teachers and teacher spouses are even legally allowed on school boards, as its a clear conflict of interest IMHO.


Those are the breaks.  A lot of nepotism is just people looking out for their own.  Its the glue that holds small towns towns together.

As a country we spend 1/2 trillion dollars every year on k-12 education.  Its a huge market  now but just wait till they corporatize it.  All you have to do is look to the numbers of for-profit colleges to see how it will turn out, or for-profit health care before it.


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## yooperdave (Apr 24, 2014)

K, you really need  to move to another state.  There are many districts that have a lower cost of living.  By no means should you throw away or disregard your nine years for a career change.  Sounds like the quality of life would be a concern, NC isn't the only place where it's safe to raise a child (young man).  Do you still like teaching?...then stick with it-just  not the location where you are now.


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## Mrs. Krabappel (Apr 24, 2014)

Yes I am working on a different direction.   I will be fine.   I am but one story though.  The entire point of the thread and the article is to highlight recent changes in education that are designed to line the pockets of wealthy individuals with your tax dollars, while students are underserved and teachers are underpaid.    NC is not in a vacuum.  This is a national trend.  We have just fast tracked it here.  No matter what side of the political stick you fall, this cannot be okay for if you are a taxpayer, particularly if you have children or grandchildren.

It's sad that a thread started to discuss these important issues quickly deteriorated into maligning teachers for being money grubbing, crappy at their jobs, and poor handlers of money  Of course whenever I bring up my own story, these things never apply to me.    Just these other elusive terrible and greedy teachers.    The ones we are so focused on that we are going to miss our pockets getting picked.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 24, 2014)

WIth all due respect Mrs k there are teachers who are money grubbing,crappy at their jobs,and poor handlers of money,same as every other profession. My point is that all states (and teachers)are not equal. I dont have a problem with teachers in my area getting the 2nd highest salaries in the country. Now the slew of 6 figure administrators and asst. administrators  is another story. Thats where the fat is around here_. 
PS Any teacher who burns wood for heat gets my vote. _


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## begreen (Apr 24, 2014)

SO, are they the exception rather than the rule?


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 24, 2014)

begreen said:


> SO, are they the exception rather than the rule?


NC seems to be the exception when it come to salaries and raises. I suppose the school boards there dont operate there the same way they do here. For the record i dont think any teacher should make less than 50k a year except as a starting salary.certainly not after 20-25yrs.


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## btuser (Apr 25, 2014)

If we're going to move education towards a private model, I suggest we look to the NFL.  We could have a kindergarten draft, where the lowest scoring schools from last year get to pick their students this year using a myriad of determining factors such as testing, attitude and an interview with the parents.  I give you my Joe Namath guarantee my wife could pick a winning team from the combine results (sit down, don' t bite, bring a lunch and a pencil etc, put your jacket on, did you bring a jacket?).

The child would get a 1yr contract, after which they would either receive scholarship (good test scores, because my wife's salary is performance-based) or have to pay for school. The worse they do the more it costs, so maybe parents would pay attention.  The best franchises would make the most money, but there would be a certain amount of revenue sharing among the league.   Sure, they're would be casualties (special education, ESL, Art and Music ) but freedom is messy, and this is about giving America a choice.

When was the last time the taxpayers had to give money to the NFL?







FYI:  the NFL hasn't payed taxes since 1966.


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## yooperdave (Apr 25, 2014)

Not only hasn't the NFL paid taxes, they pretty much haven't paid anything.  It's the fans that pay! and pay and pay


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## Beer Belly (Apr 25, 2014)

Seasoned Oak said:


> NC seems to be the exception when it come to salaries and raises. I suppose the school boards there dont operate there the same way they do here. For the record i dont think any teacher should make less than 50k a year except as a starting salary.certainly not after 20-25yrs.


 The school system I work for, teachers start at about 50k, and some at certain levels are closer to the 100k mark.....Administrators from Principals on up are from 125k upwards to 250k (superintendent)


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## Grisu (Apr 25, 2014)

btuser said:


> When was the last time the taxpayers had to give money to the NFL?
> FYI:  the NFL hasn't payed taxes since 1966.



The NFL receives subsidies all the time: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/10/how-the-nfl-fleeces-taxpayers/309448/


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## stoveguy2esw (Apr 25, 2014)

begreen said:


> Your corner of NC is God's country. It is a beautiful and special location


 
  most definately , i live in the same chain of mountains up in Virginia, actually the spouse and i are planning to run down the parkway towards the NC end tomorrow making a  weekend of it.


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## stoveguy2esw (Apr 25, 2014)

Education is very much the epitome of an issue which has no clear cut "blanket" solution. teachers are in some ways (and please you teachers dont take this the wrong way) teachers are similar in this manner to assembly line workers , they are producing a product from raw materials. now part of te quality of the finished product depends on the skill of the workers (the teachers)  another facet which matters just as much is the "raw materials" the students.  imagine having to produce 500 individual products of the same design and quality using completely different parts and pieces to do so. its pretty darned tough to make that happen IMHO.

in essence the kids are not clones, they are all different, yet the standards they are expected to be taught to and the methods of doing so are becoming increasingly standardized. imagine having a job where you have  10 different bolts to tighten and each are a different size yet the boss only gives you one wrench to do the job.not too effective right , so , now the "wrench turner" faces a dillemma "do i only tighten the one bolt my wrench fits? or do i go buy a set of wrenches to ensure i can tighten them all? " when the wrench set is not provided by the boss it becomes a problem, especially when that wrench set costs more than the wrench turner can easily afford.

wasnt really planning to weigh into this one , but here i am, my opinion is that we should not be attacking teachers for the shortcomings of the "tool set" they are provided. and certainly we should not be accusing them of greed when the profession as a whole based on its immense importance to our society as a profession is woefully underpaid for the potential benefits to overall society they provide.

i cant imagine how lousy my lot in life would have been but for the people who educated me.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 25, 2014)

Its not just NC teachers who are not making what they expected in this economy. I saw the writing on the wall back in the early 2000s. I knew tough times were coming and made an extreme effort to get out of debt.It was a wise move as im making about a third to half of what i expected to be making at this point in my career.  And im sure i have a lot of company,with the millions who took  lower paying jobs after the great recession. And many of those do have college degrees,and student loans. For me i have to stick it out here,and dont have the option of just moving to a different town or state.


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## stoveguy2esw (Apr 25, 2014)

i hear ya SO, wasnt necessarily belittling teachers outside of NC was meant to be descriptive as a whole.

in the case of NC , the saddest part of this is the state in attempting to save dimes is going to evenually lose dollars, industries are not going to be as willing to locate in a state with lousy educational standards (again not pointing at the teachers but the states government's shortsightedness in investing in education)


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## Grisu (Apr 25, 2014)

NC will eventually become a retirement state. Scenic landscape, relatively mild winters, low property taxes, no kids to bother you.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 25, 2014)

Im not complaining because for every one like me living on less, there is a few thousand who lost everything. A home after paying on it for decades in some cases.
Lots of colleges grads around here who would love even a low paying job in their chosen profession.  I could be wrong but i think NC will still get enough teachers even with the low pay.


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## stoveguy2esw (Apr 25, 2014)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I could be wrong but i think NC will still get enough teachers even with the low pay.


 


probably so but you have to wonder if the lower paying positions will attract the best and brightest. a great teacher is priceless the sooner folks realize this the sooner the overall level of education will go up.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 25, 2014)

stoveguy2esw said:


> probably so but you have to wonder if the lower paying positions will attract the best and brightest. a great teacher is priceless the sooner folks realize this the sooner the overall level of education will go up.


The parents are half the job as well and they have not been involved around here. There is no quick way to change the hard numbers. Too many people chasing too few jobs.
Good thing we have people retiring in record numbers.Thats another problem .......THe pension bomb.


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## stoveguy2esw (Apr 25, 2014)

pensions are pensions, personally i think if a person in any job were paid a high enough wage while working then the person would be able to contribute to a pension fund, now, when a pension is being provided with no or very little contribution from the worker in any job then a lower pay commensurate to the pension's funding isnt too tough a deal.still this is a side issue not the wedge point in my opinion.

this pension bomb though is another situation caused more by the local governments than by the teachers IMHO. its a classic pay now or pay later deal. being a government program the pension funds are probably raided by governors constantly to balance budgets (in virtually state a constitutional requirement of the state government) and since states cannot print currency they cannot run a deficit and expect to sustain it


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 25, 2014)

The Pension bomb is particularly bad in PA. They have been kicking the can down the road for 12 years now. THey have 2 choices. Bankrupt the state or revamp the outrageous early 2000s 50% pension hike. 50% for lawmakers and 25% for public employees including teachers.  All indications are they will bankrupt the state before they change a thing.


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## stoveguy2esw (Apr 25, 2014)

like i said, the local government is to blame for this mess, think about it this way, as a person or a family has a certain amount of income , they should budget themselves to ensure they do not find themselves without money with bills left to pay. the problem with most politicians (even the ones who preach about the balnced budget) is they simply couldnt balance a simple checkbook much less balance a state's checkbook, so they turn to the "credit cards " of politics, robbing peter to pay paul, then in order to maintain their office they hand out goodies such as tax breaks to garner favor with voters. this is what perpetuates the idiocy that happens literally everywhere in this country.


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## btuser (Apr 25, 2014)

Grisu said:


> The NFL receives subsidies all the time: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/10/how-the-nfl-fleeces-taxpayers/309448/


You must be quoting a government study.


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## DBNH22 (Apr 26, 2014)

Something worth noting that no one mentioned yet is the public school system's and the government's ridiculing and outright hostile attitude toward charter schools and home schooling.  It's scary that a bunch of government bureaucrats and public school feel so entitled to usurp the rights of parents and intrude a child's upbringing.


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## Mrs. Krabappel (Apr 27, 2014)

Nobody in public schools really cares about people homeschooling, but everyone who pays taxes should be pushing back against charter school implementation.  Talk about overpaid administration!  http://www.truth-out.org/buzzflash/...l-pirates-of-privilege-plunder-public-schools


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 27, 2014)

Dana B said:


> Something worth noting that no one mentioned yet is the public school system's and the government's ridiculing and outright hostile attitude toward charter schools and home schooling.  It's scary that a bunch of government bureaucrats and public school feel so entitled to usurp the rights of parents and intrude a child's upbringing.


Im all for charter and home schooling but they need some regulation and some guidelines. As with everything else in Govt ,no oversight means corruption and
exorbitant salaries and mismanagement. Our local public schools officials are quite vocal in their dislike for PA charter schools. Even thought they get 20% of the funding for students who dont ever set foot in a public school, they still want more.


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## Lake Girl (Apr 27, 2014)

I checked on this website: http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/community/overview_of_homeschooling/20312
Public school systems may still have responsibilities to students who are being home schooled: In PA, retention of student portfolios and ensuring that evaluations of the portfolios was completed, standardized testing, provision of curriculum materials as needed by parents/guardians, inclusion in extracurricular activities as desired.

Clearly all home school situations are not created equal - comparison of Houston and Denver experiences: http://voices.yahoo.com/homeschooling-houston-texas-vs-denver-colorado-690331.html  For myself, Texas seems a little too unrestricted as to parental responsibilities to ensure a home schooled child's education.

I guess you could say that since there is no uniformity among the states as to home school requirements, all situations are not created equal.  I gained appreciation of the extra work that is required to home school children when the Ontario teachers were out on strike years ago.  I have six children so trying to keep 3 children up to grade level activities and taking care of 3 younger children simultaneously was a bit stressful.  The internet was handy as the Ministry of Education website had some materials available.

In my wanderings on charter schools, Arizona does not require teacher certification - that's scary!

In NC, the state referenced by the original article, public schools seem to be getting the short stick.  All three school types get public funds.  The advantage is that parents are motivated because they have chosen the charter or private school and will be more likely to volunteer time and money to make it a successful experience for their child.


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## Mrs. Krabappel (Apr 27, 2014)

Yes the new charter schools are owned by big money.  They hire new teachers with no license or experience for low pay/minimal benefits naming for them to leave fairly quickly.  They provide very little support for struggling kids.  They don't have to meet the same standards.  Many don't provide lunch, bus, or aftercare, which eliminates the poor kids. So they spend less and Big money pockets the difference and the taxpayer still pays the same.  We all welcome innovation in education.  That's how charter schools started.  That's no longer the case.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 27, 2014)

We cyber schooled our daughter for a year. We never heard from the local public school. Dont know exactly what they did or did not do for the $2000 they got out of it.


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## Mrs. Krabappel (Apr 28, 2014)

The local school did not get the money.  They are funded based on the number of  kids attending the school, unless the cyber school was through that location.


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## DBNH22 (Apr 28, 2014)

Mrs. Krabappel said:


> Yes the new charter schools are owned by big money.  They hire new teachers with no license or experience for low pay/minimal benefits naming for them to leave fairly quickly.  They provide very little support for struggling kids.  They don't have to meet the same standards.  Many don't provide lunch, bus, or aftercare, which eliminates the poor kids. So they spend less and Big money pockets the difference and the taxpayer still pays the same.  We all welcome innovation in education.  That's how charter schools started.  That's no longer the case.




I don't believe you when you say "we all welcome innovation in education."  While there are some bad charter schools there are also some very good charter schools.  The public school systems attitude toward charter schools and home schooling is as I stated, hostile and demeaning.  With the disproportionate number of children attending public schools due to the inability of most parents to pay for private schooling the public school system has a semi monopoly on a K-12 education in this country and they like it that way.  Anything that threats that, "innovation in education," is not welcomed.


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## Jags (Apr 28, 2014)

Right?  So lets throw out a for profit k-12 school system.  It should be wildly successful just like our for profit health care system.


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## DBNH22 (Apr 28, 2014)

Jags said:


> Right?  So lets throw out a for profit k-12 school system.  It should be wildly successful just like our for profit health care system.




Ask a veteran if they'd prefer to get treatment at a VA or in the for profit health care system.


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## BrotherBart (Apr 28, 2014)

Dana B said:


> The public school systems attitude toward charter schools and home schooling is as I stated, hostile and demeaning.



Just as some people's attitude toward public schools appear to be.


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## jatoxico (Apr 28, 2014)

I know this was mentioned but it worth saying again. Public schools MUST take all students regardless of their situation. For example he schools must often pay for in class aids, which depending on the nature of the child's condition may be a full time aid for a single student. Private schools do not have to deal with this. If the public school funding is withdrawn as a result of students going to for profit schools the public schools will not be able to function. It is also a component to the disparity that can sometimes exist between charter v. public schools academic performance. When you can pick and choose you can keep your scores up.


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## BrotherBart (Apr 28, 2014)

Dana B said:


> Ask a veteran if they'd prefer to get treatment at a VA or in the for profit health care system.



They are asked every year.

"WASHINGTON, Jan. 20, 2006 – Veterans continued to rate the care they receive through the Department of Veterans Affairs health care system higher than other Americans rate private-sector health care for the sixth consecutive year, a new annual report on customer satisfaction reveals."


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## DBNH22 (Apr 28, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> They are asked every year.
> 
> "WASHINGTON, Jan. 20, 2006 – Veterans continued to rate the care they receive through the Department of Veterans Affairs health care system higher than other Americans rate private-sector health care for the sixth consecutive year, a new annual report on customer satisfaction reveals."



here's a link to a study done  on the VA that says otherwise


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## BrotherBart (Apr 28, 2014)

I don't see anything there that says they asked veterans which they prefer, as you suggested.


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## DBNH22 (Apr 28, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> I don't see anything there that says they asked veterans which they prefer, as you suggested.




It's not there.  But it does show that the government run VA healthcare system failing vets.


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## Grisu (Apr 28, 2014)

Dana B said:


> It's not there.  But it does show that the government run VA healthcare system failing vets.



And the private healthcare industry is failing the poor. What does that have to do with the difference between private and public schools or more specifically the education funding in NC?


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## Jags (Apr 28, 2014)

Dana B said:


> Ask a veteran if they'd prefer to get treatment at a VA or in the for profit health care system.



I did.  I asked my father on several occasions.  He is the one that convinced me to get my paperwork in for it.


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## Adios Pantalones (Apr 28, 2014)

Jags said:


> I did.  I asked my father on several occasions.  He is the one that convinced me to get my paperwork in for it.


I tried to tell a Korean about the basics of Buddhism one time. Talked for 3 minutes before she very politely corrected me. I knew everything when I was 23.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 28, 2014)

Mrs. Krabappel said:


> The local school did not get the money.  They are funded based on the number of  kids attending the school, unless the cyber school was through that location.


In our case (Pa) the local school district gets a 20% ransom for every kid in cyber school in their district. It was part of the initial agreement to allow cyber schools to operate in Pa. Dont know exactly why cyber schools should need the local schools permission to begin with,but now the public schools are re-thinking their position,and feeling somehow shortchanged with their 20% possibly because the falling enrollment in the local schools does not look good for them while the budget continues to spiral upward and they seem to be at a loss for an explanation. Translation: Cyber school seems to have introduced a little competition in the education monopoly and those running the monopoly are feeling some heat.


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## Mrs. Krabappel (Apr 28, 2014)

Is it a private or public cyber school? Who pocketed the rest of the money?


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 28, 2014)

Mrs. Krabappel said:


> Is it a private or public cyber school? Who pocketed the rest of the money?


I guess it would be considered a public cyber school as there is no charge to the family of the student and any one can apply.


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## DBNH22 (Apr 28, 2014)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I guess it would be considered a public cyber school as there is no charge to the family of the student and any one can apply.




Here is a link to a Cyber School in PA

I've never heard about these cyber schools but I came across this link.  It sounds great but the notion of cyber schools reminds me of my main objection to the ubiquitous nature of technology in our lives today.  It's causing us to lose our ability to relate to other through personal interaction.  My son and daughter are only three and two.   They go to daycare two days a week and although it's very costly I can see the positive effect that it's had on their social development.  That makes it money well spent.  I think children need that socialization throughout their developmental years into young adulthood and sitting at home staring at a screen all day does not provide it.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 28, 2014)

I thought the PA cyber school was an excellent setup ,but we only did it for 1 year as my daughter wanted to get back with her friends more. Im mostly satisfied with our local public schools with the exception of its top heavy with way too many administrators and adm Asst. and their fleet of secretaries for such a small town as this. They keep cutting teacher staff,increasing class sizes, but never cut any 6 figure Adm positions. Too many chiefs and not enough indians.


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## Lake Girl (Apr 29, 2014)

Dana B said:


> Here is a link to a Cyber School in PA
> 
> I've never heard about these cyber schools but I came across this link.  It sounds great but the notion of cyber schools reminds me of my main objection to the ubiquitous nature of technology in our lives today.  It's causing us to lose our ability to relate to other through personal interaction.  My son and daughter are only three and two.   They go to daycare two days a week and although it's very costly I can see the positive effect that it's had on their social development.  That makes it money well spent.  I think children need that socialization throughout their developmental years into young adulthood and sitting at home staring at a screen all day does not provide it.



You are missing a golden opportunity with your children by sending your children to daycare ... instilling your morals and values as you stated in your post from the other thread.  Yes, socialization is important but find friends with children the same age and set up play dates.  When my kids were home with me, TV was a small part of their lives.  We made home-made playdough, read books, painted, colored, went for walks, gardened, baked, made sand castles, went to the library, did groceries, cleaning, laundry and banking,  etc.  Time and space to be an individual ... figure things out for themselves and experiment with their environment...to become confident and responsible individuals.  Time for discussions of right or wrong and the ever important Why (no shame in saying I don't know, but finding the answer together models a positive behavior)?  Don't blame others when you are sliding on your part in raising your children...


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## begreen (Apr 29, 2014)

Might be a bit of relief for the kids?


> Dealing with the general public sucks.


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## DBNH22 (Apr 29, 2014)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I thought the PA cyber school was an excellent setup ,but we only did it for 1 year as my daughter wanted to get back with her friends more. Im mostly satisfied with our local public schools with the exception of its top heavy with way too many administrators and adm Asst. and their fleet of secretaries for such a small town as this. They keep cutting teacher staff,increasing class sizes, but never cut any 6 figure Adm positions. Too many chiefs and not enough indians.





Lake Girl said:


> You are missing a golden opportunity with your children by sending your children to daycare ... instilling your morals and values as you stated in your post from the other thread.  Yes, socialization is important but find friends with children the same age and set up play dates.  When my kids were home with me, TV was a small part of their lives.  We made home-made playdough, read books, painted, colored, went for walks, gardened, baked, made sand castles, went to the library, did groceries, cleaning, laundry and banking,  etc.  Time and space to be an individual ... figure things out for themselves and experiment with their environment...to become confident and responsible individuals.  Time for discussions of right or wrong and the ever important Why (no shame in saying I don't know, but finding the answer together models a positive behavior)?  Don't blame others when you are sliding on your part in raising your children...




As I stated my children only go to daycare two days a week.  Three days they are home with my wife and the last two with me.  My wife and I try to take advantage of every moment that we're with them in the ways that you mentioned.  However I see the value in them having that time to interact with their peers in their age group and those children that are also slightly older and younger.   We can't really offer that opportunity at home as I don't think we could schedule that level of play dates.  I find that the daycare atmosphere is also not at all anything like the social/political indoctrination centers that are our K-12 public schools.


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## Lake Girl (Apr 29, 2014)

Dana B said:


> the social/political indoctrination centers that are our K-12 public schools.



 And you know this - how??  I thought you were having specific bad experiences with a local school.  You're taking someone else's perspective instead of forming your own ... as your children aren't even in school yet.  I taught my children to be independent thinkers ...   They stood up to bullies, said no to drugs, stood up for rights enshrined in our Charter of Rights and Freedoms (Canada) in Grade 5 supported by their parents.  Yes we had a go with a public school and segregation of a specific student population - that stopped.  My husband served on the School Board.  I volunteered to assist with their swim program (among other things) because there were too many children who didn't know how to swim and way too many lakes and rivers around here.  Education isn't and shouldn't be a hands-off approach.  If you don't like something or want to improve a school, you have the power to change it by being involved in a positive way and encouraging others to do the same.


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## webbie (Apr 29, 2014)

There is nothing wrong with being indoctrinated (educated socially and intellectually, etc.) as long as that indoctrination is mostly positive. Of course, expecting your schools to instill every possibly human value in your children is not realistic...especially since so many people think differently!

Since we all need more memes, I thought the one below was apt.

Realistically, those are closer to my values..than the status quo. But many Americans seem to fight against things which seem so logical and reasonable. 
To be fair, most Danes cannot afford a powerboat, so they have to sail instead....so there are down sides to this way of life where you value actual education and daily living. You can't have quite as many toys.


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## begreen (Apr 29, 2014)

Charter school pimping Koch Brothers, Gov. Pope and ALEC spewing legislators can chew on this table for awhile. American high schools have achieved their highest rate of graduation. According to a new report, for the first time in American history the national high school graduation rate surpassed 80% in 2012 and is projected to reach 90% by 2020. Suck it boys. 






https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2013/2013309/tables/table_03.asp


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## Lake Girl (Apr 30, 2014)

Charter schools article on reuters that is pretty enlightening in many ways ...  
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/15/us-usa-charters-admissions-idUSBRE91E0HF20130215


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## DBNH22 (Apr 30, 2014)

begreen said:


> Charter school pimping Koch Brothers, Gov. Pope and ALEC spewing legislators can chew on this table for awhile. American high schools have achieved their highest rate of graduation. According to a new report, for the first time in American history the national high school graduation rate surpassed 80% in 2012 and is projected to reach 90% by 2020. Suck it boys.
> 
> View attachment 132462
> 
> ...




High School Literacy Rates

The article discusses the fact that 15 million high school graduates over the last 15 years can't even read at the basic reading level.  So what good is touting graduation rates if not all of the graduates are even capable of reading at a basic level?

But I guess I'm just a Koch brothers stooge.  How predictable and pathetic.  It never ceases to amaze that those to whom complete distrust of industry comes so easily have no issue whatsoever in believing everything that the government tells them, hook, line and sinker.


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## DBNH22 (Apr 30, 2014)

webbie said:


> There is nothing wrong with being indoctrinated (educated socially and intellectually, etc.) as long as that indoctrination is mostly positive. Of course, expecting your schools to instill every possibly human value in your children is not realistic...especially since so many people think differently!
> 
> Since we all need more memes, I thought the one below was apt.
> 
> ...




I don't expect nor do I want the public school system to instill any values in my children.  It is my right, duty and pleasure to install values in my children.  The public school system's function is to tech them how to read, write, do arithmetic, learn about non-revisionist history and objective science etc etc

Also comparing Denmark to the US is comparing apples and oranges.  the populations of each nation and the issues the deal with are completely different.


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## Grisu (Apr 30, 2014)

Dana B said:


> I don't expect nor do I want the public school system to install any values in my children.  It is my right, duty and pleasure to install values in my children.  The public school system's function is to tech them how to read, write, do arithmetic, learn about non-revisionist history and objective science etc etc



So teachers should be indifferent to lying, stealing, harassment, disrespect, violence, tardiness, destruction of common property, intolerance, arrogance etc. etc.?  

And btw. I hope my kid's school is teaching revisionist history instead of passing on made-up fairy tales just because some group likes the moral of it but which never occurred that way. Non-revisionist history and objective science are mutually exclusive.


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## BrotherBart (Apr 30, 2014)

Yeah, every kid I haven't raised yet is gonna be perfect.


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## Mrs. Krabappel (Apr 30, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> Yeah, every kid I haven't raised yet is gonna be perfect.








 I'd have to be spending my lunch counseling those kids about kindness and acceptance of all.


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## BrotherBart (Apr 30, 2014)

Mrs. Krabappel said:


> I'd have to be spending my lunch counseling those kids about kindness and acceptance of all.



And to "install values". Bring hand tools.


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## Mrs. Krabappel (Apr 30, 2014)

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...rter-schools-andrew-broy-district-run-schools

Innovation at charter schools apparently means kick out the low performers.


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## BrotherBart (Apr 30, 2014)

Mrs. Krabappel said:


> Innovation at charter schools apparently means kick out the low performers.



Edunic cleansing?


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## mass_burner (Apr 30, 2014)

did anyone see the Frontline program about Michelle Rhee and the DC schools? Entrenched interests never want to give anything up.

here's the link: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/education-of-michelle-rhee/


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 30, 2014)

Mrs. Krabappel said:


> http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...rter-schools-andrew-broy-district-run-schools
> Innovation at charter schools apparently means kick out the low performers.


I would think its possible the charter schools get a lot of low performers looking to avoid going to school in the first place. By its very nature charter/cyber school would not work unless there is a lot of parental involvement and supervision ,which is also rare in some cases.
I may use it again if we travel extensively. Other wise i think the kids are better off in a regular school be it public or private.


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## Lake Girl (Apr 30, 2014)

Dana B said:


> I don't expect nor do I want the public school system to install any values in my children.  It is my right, duty and pleasure to install values in my children.  The public school system's function is to tech them how to read, write, do arithmetic, learn about non-revisionist history and objective science etc etc
> 
> Also comparing Denmark to the US is comparing apples and oranges.  the populations of each nation and the issues the deal with are completely different.



What "values" do you feel public schools are "indoctrinating"?  Concrete examples as I'm just not understanding what you're objecting to.....

I hate to break it to you - *every social interaction* confirms or challenges values and morals.


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## DBNH22 (Apr 30, 2014)

Grisu said:


> So teachers should be indifferent to lying, stealing, harassment, disrespect, violence, tardiness, destruction of common property, intolerance, arrogance etc. etc.?
> 
> And btw. I hope my kid's school is teaching revisionist history instead of passing on made-up fairy tales just because some group likes the moral of it but which never occurred that way. Non-revisionist history and objective science are mutually exclusive.


 

There's a difference between dealing with the things you mentioned which all can be said to have negative/disruptive consequences and teachers/administrators actively subjecting students to their own personal political and social views.

Also you seem to imply that revisionism for the sake of revisionism is good with no regard for the truth.


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## DBNH22 (Apr 30, 2014)

Lake Girl said:


> What "values" do you feel public schools are "indoctrinating"?  Concrete examples as I'm just not understanding what you're objecting to.....
> 
> I hate to break it to you - *every social interaction* confirms or challenges values and morals.




I don't care to wander too far into the realm of politics but there's really no way to answer your question aside from coming out and saying it bluntly.  The fact is that on the whole our public K-12 schools are dominated by intolerant, totalitarian, leftists.   When one looks at the current state of affairs on our college campuses the problem can be seen to be exponentially worse.

Since you asked for concrete examples here's one.


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## DBNH22 (Apr 30, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> And to "install values". Bring hand tools.




typo.  missed that one.


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## Grisu (Apr 30, 2014)

Dana B said:


> There's a difference between dealing with the things you mentioned which all can be said to have negative/disruptive consequences and teachers/administrators actively subjecting students to their own personal political and social views.



And you had a lot of experience yet with teachers "indoctrinating" your children? I also would hazard the guess that it is only those "liberal" views you are concerned with.

You know, one of the values I want to pass on to my children is to think for themselves. If they are unable to take different opinions and facts from various sources and based on those form their own view than I won't consider myself a good parent. Btw. that may include having a different opinion than my own. I raised kids, not clones. 



> Also you seem to imply that revisionism for the sake of revisionism is good with no regard for the truth.



Your comprehension of what I wrote is rather baffling. Non-revisionist history means a distorted version of past events is passed on despite new data that shed a different light on the issue and require an revised interpretation. Hence, non-revisionist history is often neglecting the "truth". (Ever seen "Rashomon"? Maybe it would teach you something regarding the ultimate "truth".)


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## Jags (Apr 30, 2014)

Next you will be telling me that Christopher Columbus wasn't the first one to find this place. We all know he did.


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## DBNH22 (Apr 30, 2014)

Grisu said:


> And you had a lot of experience yet with teachers "indoctrinating" your children? I also would hazard the guess that it is only those "liberal" views you are concerned with.
> 
> You know, one of the values I want to pass on to my children is to think for themselves. If they are unable to take different opinions and facts from various sources and based on those form their own view than I won't consider myself a good parent. Btw. that may include having a different opinion than my own. I raised kids, not clones.
> 
> Your comprehension of what I wrote is rather baffling. Non-revisionist history means a distorted version of past events is passed on despite new data that shed a different light on the issue and require an revised interpretation. Hence, non-revisionist history is often neglecting the "truth". (Ever seen "Rashomon"? Maybe it would teach you something regarding the ultimate "truth".)



I don't think teachers should be advocating either liberal or conservative values.  The vast majority of academic learning at the k-12 grade levels does not easily lend itself to segways into discussion of political and social issues.  How do you go from learning about the rules of grammar or how to solve for x in algebra to talking about political and social issues?

  Being exposed to opinions differing from one's own is great as long as the discourse is appropriate to the setting and there is civility and mutual respect.  Did you read the story I linked to in an earlier post about the Geometry teacher that demanded a student remove a political t-shirt that she did not agree with and then chastised and ridiculed the student in the classroom?

I understand what revisionist history is.  To me it sounded as if you were suggesting that any and all  revisionist history is good.  My point was that there are many different motivations and agendas that go along with revising history and many of them have no regard for the truth.


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## begreen (Apr 30, 2014)

Certainly agree with that, particularly when creationism is substituted for science. Most of our history is revisionist, particularly in grade schools. That is because almost all text books are vetted by the self-righteous Texas or Tennessee school boards. Little if anything is printed about the slaughter and horrors of Columbus's expeditions, native American decimation via some of the most vile means, the huge scam that was the first transcontinental railroad, etc.


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## webbie (Apr 30, 2014)

Our entire educational hierarchy is and has been based on throwing out the low performers. That was the whole Bell Curve thing, which got lost in the PC discussion and outrage which followed the publication of the book.

I have always wanted more vo-tech schools and more of the euro way of testing youth to find out what suits them best. Some people are mechanical geniuses - others are wordsmiths. Too much of our system doesn't allow for all of this.

Little story - I'm always looking for small volunteer efforts, so I saw something about mentoring kids in the local vo-techs. This, I thought, would be perfect as I have experience in the trades, HVAC, carpentry, etc.

So, I went to meet with the manager of this particular program. The school was big and impressive and I was surprised when she mentioned that there were about 4 others in the area that they were aligned with. Maybe I had found the promised land...where youth learn careers, etc.????

Well, after talking about 20 minutes I detected certain "code words" which were being used. Long story short, what she was telling me was that these schools were the dumping grounds for kids who couldn't make it socially or academically - and, furthermore, what they called "mentoring" sounded more like social work!

She talked about a few kids and really thought I would be a great mentor. I even went through the background criminal check. Then we talked and I said one thing to her - that I tended to do much better working with kids who had some aptitude in the trade or training they were taking - in other words, I truly wanted to mentor vo-tech youth! Well, lo and behold, they were unable to find a youth for me to work with....because they were looking for Big Brothers and Sisters, not for actual mentors.

It left me feeling a bit sad - all these campuses, facilities, staff and kids and the whole thing is mostly a front trying to keep the heads of these kids above water (I was told that the stories were depressing...about their home lives, etc. etc.).....

What the heck can you do about stuff like that? It's depressing. The money is there, the staff is there, the kids are there...but the society and home life is so screwed up that all of it means nothing.

Sad.


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## Grisu (Apr 30, 2014)

Dana B said:


> I don't think teachers should be advocating either liberal or conservative values.  The vast majority of academic learning at the k-12 grade levels does not easily lend itself to segways into discussion of political and social issues.  How do you go from learning about the rules of grammar or how to solve for x in algebra to talking about political and social issues?
> 
> Being exposed to opinions differing from one's own is great as long as the discourse is appropriate to the setting and there is civility and mutual respect.  Did you read the story I linked to in an earlier post about the Geometry teacher that demanded a student remove a political t-shirt that she did not agree with and then chastised and ridiculed the student in the classroom?



What really puzzles me is that someone opens a thread claiming to want moral, well-rounded, less materialistic children but then infantilizes them by having their social and political views solely being taught and approved by their parents, instead of allowing those children to incorporate ideas and opinions from all kinds of sources. If something worries me about the education of a new generation, then it is that attitude of censorship by "Big Parent" that you seem to advocate. A school is exactly one of the places and settings for civil discourse out of mutual respect, knowledge, and different viewpoints and experiences. If one teacher denigrates a student for a different political view, he/she has no business being a teacher, but the same could be said of a parent - just no one will say anything. I hope you remember to stay civil when one of your children sits at the dinner table wearing a "Pro Keynes" T-shirt. But that is never going to happen with your children, isn't it? How can you ever have discussions when differing views are not even known? Thus, discussions about social and political issues have certainly a place in school at least as much as at the dinner table.

I am also wondering how you want to teach literature for example and read a classical  or modern novel without touching political and social issues. That would be an awfully short list. Moreover, history would be banned from the curriculum and geography shortened to reading maps. Let's not talk about contentious topics in biology such as sex, evolution, or gene engineering. And how about arithmetic? Here is a simple example what happens when you apply it: 



Let's face it: We live in a political and social world. Our children need to learn about it as much as the can from as many different angles as possible to become the well-rounded adults you would also like to have. Our duty as parents is to support their exploration of our world, not act as a gatekeeper. 



> I understand what revisionist history is.  To me it sounded as if you were suggesting that any and all  revisionist history is good.  My point was that there are many different motivations and agendas that go along with revising history and many of them have no regard for the truth.



And who told you that the prior version was the "truth" and not some revisionist fantasy?


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## Lake Girl (May 1, 2014)

My children are adults now and as such our political conversations are usually them telling me what they found out about political leaders of both the US and Canada (information I wasn't aware of).  Surprised how well they sought out information on the political parties/leaders - attending or watching televised debates, watching news from multiple sources, websites.  They make their own informed choices.  As to the article you posted, I wonder how the lawsuit went were the judge was privy to both sides of the story - there are always two.  Never ran into this kind of problem and I know some of my children's previous teachers have different political leanings than my husband and I.  We had discussions on merits of parties/leaders with them outside of the classroom with kids present - these civil discussions were important for the kids to see too.  The teacher's viewpoints never showed up in the classroom; discussions centered on organization of the political system and basic philosophies of each party. They had one exercise that had students pick one political party, research their viewpoints, hold an "election campaign" and have a vote.  A lesson they really enjoyed and was well managed ... a test run of being a contributing member of a democracy.

I did have one incident where a son was wearing a t-shirt of questionable taste, I warned him that it really wasn't appropriate and could get him into trouble, his choice to wear it (he was 16) but take a spare t-shirt... 

"History" that has missing information should be questioned.  I wrote a university history paper based on that premise - two viewpoints were presented in an article that totally lacked representation of two other viewpoints.  Motivations of those two disregarded viewpoints were very relevant.  I got a passing grade but lost points on that one


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## DBNH22 (May 1, 2014)

Grisu said:


> What really puzzles me is that someone opens a thread claiming to want moral, well-rounded, less materialistic children but then infantilizes them by having their social and political views solely being taught and approved by their parents, instead of allowing those children to incorporate ideas and opinions from all kinds of sources. If something worries me about the education of a new generation, then it is that attitude of censorship by "Big Parent" that you seem to advocate. A school is exactly one of the places and settings for civil discourse out of mutual respect, knowledge, and different viewpoints and experiences. If one teacher denigrates a student for a different political view, he/she has no business being a teacher, but the same could be said of a parent - just no one will say anything. I hope you remember to stay civil when one of your children sits at the dinner table wearing a "Pro Keynes" T-shirt. But that is never going to happen with your children, isn't it? How can you ever have discussions when differing views are not even known? Thus, discussions about social and political issues have certainly a place in school at least as much as at the dinner table.
> 
> I am also wondering how you want to teach literature for example and read a classical  or modern novel without touching political and social issues. That would be an awfully short list. Moreover, history would be banned from the curriculum and geography shortened to reading maps. Let's not talk about contentious topics in biology such as sex, evolution, or gene engineering. And how about arithmetic? Here is a simple example what happens when you apply it:
> 
> ...





As I stated earlier I agree with you that it's a good thing when different opinions and views are discussed.   It's a healthy and necessary part of the process of becoming a healthy, stable, well rounded person.


However if you look at the current state of our current K-12  system and much more so our colleges and universities you will see that liberals and hardcore leftists dominate the discussion and are in fact extremely intolerant and dismissive of those who would offer views which differ from their own.  They frequently ridicule and belittle anyone who dare questions them through the use of socially stigmatizing epithets.  They are the masters of cheap identity politics.  This is a fact.  If you choose to deny this fact I'd be more than happy to provide example after example after example after example of this while challenging you to provide examples where conservatives/non liberals have behaved in the same way.  The ironic thing is that it's these intolerant, feeble minded leftist educators who claim to be the most open minded among us.

I think maybe I've not made my point clear enough regarding the revisionist history comment.  I never claimed that the original version of history was always the most accurate.  What I believe is that most revisionist history is conducted with an agenda, that agenda quite often is not an adherence to historical accuracy and objectivity, and that many people accept popular revisionist history at face value.  I'll give you an example.   It's all the rage among historians to claim the Europeans who settled this nation were absolutely brutal and inhumane in dealing with the natives that were already living here.  Many historians paint the picture that the natives tribes were all living in a peaceful utopia amongst themselves before the Europeans showed up.  The basic idea is that Natives = good and europeans = bad and there can be no deviation from this narrative.   While it's true that the Europeans did in fact quite often and over an very long time exhibit a complete disregard for native as humans it's also true that many of the different native groups were guilty of the exact same behavior toward one another before the Europeans ever showed up.  It's also true that many natives, unprovoked, would attack and murder and torture european settlers.   To their credit their are some historians that want to discuss all aspects of this period in our history rather than settling on the mainstream historical account.


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## BrotherBart (May 1, 2014)

And then we have conservative indoctrination.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/apr/27/middle-school-teacher-charged-giving-student-lap-d/


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## btuser (May 1, 2014)

My wife is on one of her many paid vacation this week.  From Saturday to Wednesday she has spent over 60+hrs and $300 painting backdrops and organizing functions at two separate schools for various things that aren't her job and for which she is not getting paid.  

But more importantly, where's my dinner?


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## Grisu (May 1, 2014)

Dana B said:


> The ironic thing is that it's these *intolerant, feeble minded* leftist educators who claim to be the most open minded among us.



Is that an example of the mutual respect and civility you want to teach your children? They are not even in school but you are already denigrating a whole group of hardworking citizens who for the most part try their best to give kids a good education. 



> I think maybe I've not made my point clear enough regarding the revisionist history comment.  I never claimed that the original version of history was always the most accurate.  *What I believe* is that most revisionist history is conducted with an agenda, that agenda quite often is not an adherence to historical accuracy and objectivity, and that many people accept popular revisionist history at face value.  I'll give you an example.   It's all the rage among historians to claim the Europeans who settled this nation were absolutely brutal and inhumane in dealing with the natives that were already living here.  Many historians paint the picture that the natives tribes were all living in a peaceful utopia amongst themselves before the Europeans showed up.  The basic idea is that Natives = good and europeans = bad and there can be no deviation from this narrative.   While it's true that the Europeans did in fact quite often and over an very long time exhibit a complete disregard for native as humans it's also true that many of the different native groups were guilty of the exact same behavior toward one another before the Europeans ever showed up.  It's also true that many natives, unprovoked, would attack and murder and torture european settlers.   To their credit their are some historians that want to discuss all aspects of this period in our history rather than settling on the mainstream historical account.



As my physics teacher used to say:"When you want to believe, go to church." Show that there is a widespread attempt to revise history that is not based on historical evidence. Not too mention that your example is comparing apples and oranges. Your argument is that when two kids fight over a ball, a third, bigger one is justified in taking it from them because they are not nice to each other? And that bigger kid can also take over the soccer field and means of resistance are a justification for brutal violence. I would say those are feeble attempts to revise history to sugarcoat invasion and genocide.


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## mass_burner (May 1, 2014)

begreen said:


> Certainly agree with that, particularly when creationism is substituted for science. Most of our history is revisionist, particularly in grade schools. That is because almost all text books are vetted by the self-righteous Texas or Tennessee school boards. Little if anything is printed about the slaughter and horrors of Columbus's expeditions, native American decimation via some of the most vile means, the huge scam that was the first transcontinental railroad, etc.


 

All, even "factual" histories, are revisionist in the sense they are told by one POV and are biased toward that POV by the omission of other POV's.


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## begreen (May 1, 2014)

Very true, though some factual histories include multiple POVs. I find them the most interesting, particularly if they are based on writings of the time. You still have to draw your own conclusions, which adds one's personal POV to the mix. A good teacher will note this, presenting multiple POVs and encourage discussion and critical thinking.


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## mass_burner (May 1, 2014)

begreen said:


> Very true, though some factual histories include multiple POVs. I find them the most interesting, particularly if they are based on writings of the time. You still have to draw your own conclusions, which adds one's personal POV to the mix. A good teacher will note this, presenting multiple POVs and encourage discussion and critical thinking.


 

Agreed. Read as many POV's as you can so you can corroborate any one of them. Also makes a more complete view.


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## DBNH22 (May 1, 2014)

Grisu said:


> Is that an example of the mutual respect and civility you want to teach your children? They are not even in school but you are already denigrating a whole group of hardworking citizens who for the most part try their best to give kids a good education.



It is an expression of the attitude formed on the observation of their behavior and the environment they've created at schools which is extremely corrosive to open and honest debate with mutual respect.  Not being a leftist, it's extremely common that, from the word go, no respect would be afforded to me or those who think like me in the public education system and on a college campus.  Beyond the lack of respect, one who does not toe the line  of leftist ideology can be confident in the fact that their personal character will be attacked and that they will be ridiculed, belittled, demeaned and ostracized.   So as I go forward in raising my children, instilling my values in them, I will warn them that this is the general state of things of the public education system, because it is true.


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## DBNH22 (May 1, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> And then we have conservative indoctrination.
> 
> http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/apr/27/middle-school-teacher-charged-giving-student-lap-d/




????


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## Grisu (May 1, 2014)

Dana B said:


> It is an attitude formed on the observation of their behavior and the environment they've created at schools which is extremely corrosive to open and honest debate with mutual respect.  Not being a leftist, it's extremely common that, from the word go, no respect would be afforded to me or those who think like me in the public education system and on a college campus.  Beyond the lack of respect one who does not toe the line  of leftist ideology can be confident in the fact that their personal character will be attacked and that they ridiculed, belittled, demeaned and ostracized.   So as I go forward in raising my children, instilling my values in them, I would tell them that this is the general state of things of the public education system, because it is true.



If I would be a kindergarten teacher and a parent who I never met before comes into my classroom that has the mindset of me being an intolerant, feeble-minded leftist who is there to indoctrinate his children I would have a hard time respecting that person beyond professional courtesy. Let's face it, you show exactly the ridiculing, belittling, demeaning and ostracizing behavior you accuse those liberals for. And you claim that attitude was formed on observation when you have no first hand experience with the behavior or environment in our current schools but purely judge from hearsay and news-channel exaggerations. Even worse, touting those intolerant attitudes, oversimplifications, and generalizations as universal truths. Fortunately, there is hope for your children:
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/05/parents-political-beliefs/361462/


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## DBNH22 (May 1, 2014)

Grisu said:


> If I would be a kindergarten teacher and a parent who I never met before comes into my classroom that has the mindset of me being an intolerant, feeble-minded leftist who is there to indoctrinate his children I would have a hard time respecting that person beyond professional courtesy. Let's face it, you show exactly the ridiculing, belittling, demeaning and ostracizing behavior you accuse those liberals for. And you claim that attitude was formed on observation when you have no first hand experience with the behavior or environment in our current schools but purely judge from hearsay and news-channel exaggerations. Even worse, touting those intolerant attitudes, oversimplifications, and generalizations as universal truths. Fortunately, there is hope for your children:
> http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/05/parents-political-beliefs/361462/




With regard to public K -12.  Yes my children have not begun that yet but our system is rife with examples of what I'm talking about.  I already provided one example.  I could provide many more but I doubt you'd ever yield to the evidence.

With regard to college campuses.  It is, as I said before, exponentially worse.  It was not that long ago that I graduated from college myself.  I attended several different colleges and had the occasion for extended visits at dozens of others.  I've seen it with my own eyes.  To deny it is to deny reality.

That being said I realize that not every last individual involved in the K-12 or in the colleges is like this.  But based on all the evidence of outright hostility of the system overall I'm forced to approach it as I do.

Hope for my children?  I want my children to be able to think critically for themselves when they become adults and see the world for what is is and I'm fairly confident that if they're capable of this they're views will be similar to my own.

I'm just curious if you have children of your own.


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## BrotherBart (May 1, 2014)

There is nothing like pouring the foundation for blaming somebody else for your kids growing up all screwed up.


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## DBNH22 (May 1, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> There is nothing like pouring the foundation for blaming somebody else for your kids growing up all screwed up.





ummmmm yeah that's exactly what I'm doing.


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## BrotherBart (May 1, 2014)

As a guy that has no kids but who until recently served on two school division steering committees in my county after retiring as the IT director of the school division at the next county over, I find all of your "observations" to be a crock. I never once observed any of what you claim to be widespread at all in interaction with and observation of teachers and administrators on a daily basis.

Of course I also fail to find the relevance of this whole line of blather on a website devoted to wood burning.

So on that note...


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