# Heartbroken over a poor investment.



## WendyO (Mar 4, 2014)

I saved for 3 years to buy a wood stove insert this past November, thinking it would help keep my fuel costs down. I paid an arm and a leg for a Jotul, that claimed to put out 40,000 btu's for up to 1,300 sq. ft. It's the smallest insert of the 3 I looked at - but I live in a small house ( 1,400 sq. foot Cape. ) so I bought it. After burning through 1.5 cords of wood - and 100's of $ of bio bricks ( as we were told to try by retailer who sold us the stove ) and now on tank #2 of oil AND a kerosene heater in addition,  I can honestly say that claim of 40,000 btu's is bull! I am so upset about this I can't tell you. After MANY phone calls to the retailer, a service tech FINALLY came to the house to check out the stove. He said the wood was a bit damp ( though it burns fine in our other fireplace ) and we weren't getting the stove hot enough. As a result, it wasn't putting out the heat. Duh. Really? So I bought a thermometer, and got the insert consistently up over 500 degrees. Still no great results. Now we're into end of January - and they tell us perhaps the chimney isn't drafting right. So... the service tech comes and extends the top of our center chimney by 3 feet because perhaps the draft wasn't working properly. It worked a bit better - but STILL not getting that " need to wear only a t-shirt " kind of heat. No where near it. Now it's March --- many many phone calls later and still no solution. I am so upset about this $3,800 investment that I am ready to go to the Better Business Bureau about Superior Hearth, Spa and Leisure in Southington, CT  who could CARE LESS - and Jotul Corporate about their misrepresentation. Superior's solution?? Buy a bigger stove for an additional $800.00

Has anyone a suggestion for me? Am I doing something wrong? Please...


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## Dix (Mar 4, 2014)

How seasoned is your firewood???

Damp ain't good Wendy.

The first year is usually the hardest, until you start to get ahead on your stacks.


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## BrotherBart (Mar 4, 2014)

The lil Winterport insert firebox is only like 1.2 or 1.4 cubic feet of space. Good for heating a thousand square feet or so and maybe four or five hour burns.


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## drewmo (Mar 4, 2014)

After something like 20 years with a smoke dragon, my folks ended up buying a Jotul free-standing, also with a very small fire box. I was concerned that the heat would not meet their expectations. Fortunately, it puts out enough heat for their purposes, so they're happy. But I notice that they never burn the stove hot enough (usually in the 300-350 range), so I played with it for an hour and sure enough I had my dad cursing that it was too hot up in the loft. 

There is definitely a learning curve to wood stoves, especially if this is your first go at burning wood. Not sure of your history with inserts and stoves, Wendy, so if you're not having good luck with your dealer, find a neighbor, fellow Hearth member, anyone who has experience with burning wood and ask to show you the ropes. Jotul is a great and respected manufacturer and with the right knowledge, wood and air circulation, that stove should deliver.


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## Dix (Mar 4, 2014)

Missed the part about the Bio Bricks. With those, you should have had some heat, barring crappy house layout / flow, and other hinderences. A smaller fire box is not going to help with the nasty winter we've had.


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## velvetfoot (Mar 4, 2014)

Do you use the fan?


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## GENECOP (Mar 4, 2014)

In most instances you want to get more stove and have the extra potential in reserve should you need it....your Stove is rated for 1300 SQFT, your Cape is 1400SQFT....Sq footage is usually just a guide line , how high are your ceilings, how well are you insulated, what type of windows etc etc....Like someone suggested work with some of the members here or find a friend or neighbor who has stove experience....as far as pursuing BBB and other agencies, I would pass on that, At the end of the day their posistion will be you chose the stove and it was undersized for your conditions....no real liability there....and it will just continue to upset you, just move on, work with it, you will figure it out and make it work, good luck....


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## blacktail (Mar 4, 2014)

WendyO said:


> Still no great results.
> 
> STILL not getting that " need to wear only a t-shirt " kind of heat.



Stove rated "up to" 1300sf...
1400sf house...
cold northeast climate.

Maybe your expectations were too high.


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## Don2222 (Mar 4, 2014)

Hello
I had a VC Dutchwest large wood/coal stove. Never got the house real hot even with the stove cranking at 800 to 1000 Deg F on top and the blower on! Sold it and got a wood pellet stove in the same spot and Bingo! No more oil used for heat and house will bake if turned up too high. Just my experience! House is 2200 sq ft. Also got a 2nd stove as a backup but do not need it.


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## elmoleaf (Mar 4, 2014)

Good heating from wood is as much dependent upon the existing home conditions, the fuel and the installation details as it is upon the stove itself. 
House: age, level of air sealing, height of flue, insulation levels, floor plan and location of stove in home, inside vs outside chimney, house location/elevation, etc.
Fuel: type of wood, moisture content, size of pieces. 
Stove: epa, non-epa, fire-box size, method of operation, temperature, etc. 
Installation: insulated flue, blockoff plate, stove accessories, cap, etc
Experienced eyes on the situation first hand would be helpful. Barring that, lots of photographs and descriptions.
Above is only a partial listing of variables ...there are many places to go wrong. Impossible to diagnose without more information.


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## DougA (Mar 4, 2014)

Hopefully a member in CT will offer to help you. If an experienced member has a moisture meter and can spend a few hours there, it would correct the problems that your dealer should have. Remember that 40,000 BTU and 1,400 sq ft. is the maximum the stove is rated for in ideal conditions. That means perfect wood, perfect draft, perfect operator. It seems to be pretty common to take the mfg. numbers and cut them by 40 to 50% to get realistic, real world use.  Even if you go up one size, that may not be enough. To be fair, this winter is the worst out of 30 that I have been using my wood stove.


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## velvetfoot (Mar 4, 2014)

Again...fan?


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## rdust (Mar 4, 2014)

Please explain the chimney that is being used from the stove up.(diameter, height etc)  Can you take us through how you're running the stove? 

As BrotherBart said above that's a small firebox.  If you're wanting to heat primarily with wood successfully a stove in the 2+cubic ft range will be needed.(most of us end up in the 3 cubic ft range)  Remember you can build a small fire in a big stove, it's hard(impossible) to build a big fire in a small stove.  It's not uncommon to miss on the first stove purchase, I did!


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## dznam (Mar 4, 2014)

WendyO said:


> I saved for 3 years to buy a wood stove insert this past November, thinking it would help keep my fuel costs down. I paid an arm and a leg for a Jotul, that claimed to put out 40,000 btu's for up to 1,300 sq. ft. It's the smallest insert of the 3 I looked at - but I live in a small house ( 1,400 sq. foot Cape. ) so I bought it. After burning through 1.5 cords of wood - and 100's of $ of bio bricks ( as we were told to try by retailer who sold us the stove ) and now on tank #2 of oil AND a kerosene heater in addition,  I can honestly say that claim of 40,000 btu's is bull! I am so upset about this I can't tell you. After MANY phone calls to the retailer, a service tech FINALLY came to the house to check out the stove. He said the wood was a bit damp ( though it burns fine in our other fireplace ) and we weren't getting the stove hot enough. As a result, it wasn't putting out the heat. Duh. Really? So I bought a thermometer, and got the insert consistently up over 500 degrees. Still no great results. Now we're into end of January - and they tell us perhaps the chimney isn't drafting right. So... the service tech comes and extends the top of our center chimney by 3 feet because perhaps the draft wasn't working properly. It worked a bit better - but STILL not getting that " need to wear only a t-shirt " kind of heat. No where near it. Now it's March --- many many phone calls later and still no solution. I am so upset about this $3,800 investment that I am ready to go to the Better Business Bureau about Superior Hearth, Spa and Leisure in Southington, CT  who could CARE LESS - and Jotul Corporate about their misrepresentation. Superior's solution?? Buy a bigger stove for an additional $800.00
> 
> Has anyone a suggestion for me? Am I doing something wrong? Please...




Your insert is too small to live up to your expectations and undersized for your climate and square footage no matter how well seasoned your wood is. Take the Superior offer and upsize - you'll be much happier.


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## webby3650 (Mar 4, 2014)

Don2222 said:


> Hello
> I had a VC Dutchwest large wood/coal stove. Never got the house real hot even with the stove cranking at 800 to 1000 Deg F on top and the blower on! Sold it and got a wood pellet stove in the same spot and Bingo! No more oil used for heat and house will bake if turned up too high. Just my experience! House is 2200 sq ft. Also got a 2nd stove as a backup but do not need it.


A pellet stove is hardly the answer here. It's simply undersized and being used with under seasoned wood.


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## webby3650 (Mar 4, 2014)

This is a tiny insert, its undersized for the house. But, it should still be contributing to the houses heat demand. I'm guessing the house has vaulted ceilings? Old windows? All these things play a part in the amount of heat needed. That's why most Jotul stoves are rated for cubic footage, not square footage.


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## Ram 1500 with an axe... (Mar 4, 2014)

Wow..... Where do we start.... You need to answer alot of questions in order to get help and a few pics of the room would help......you may need to upgrade to the biggest insert possible, 1 size up won't cut it.....
What type of wood are you burning?
How long has it been split and stacked? What is the MC?
Do you run your stove fully open? 
How much wood do you burn at a time?
At what speed do you run your fan?
How cold is it outside?
How many windows do you have? Are they single pane?
What's your insulation like?
How big of a space are you trying to heat?
Are you burning 24/7 or do you cold start everyday?

I will stop there........


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## Don2222 (Mar 4, 2014)

webby3650 said:


> A pellet stove is hardly the answer here. It's simply undersized and being used with under seasoned wood.


A pellet stove is an option but the proper size stove and dry wood or dry wood pellets is most important!


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## webby3650 (Mar 4, 2014)

Don2222 said:


> A pellet stove is an option but the proper size stove and dry wood or dry wood pellets is most important!


The OP said they were struggling to heat, how's a pellet stove gonna help with that?  (Joke)


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## weatherguy (Mar 4, 2014)

A bigger stove, drier wood and a block off plate (if you don't have one) would probably solve problems.
If the dealer is offering you a bigger stove for just the price difference, jump on it. This is a long term investment and will pay off down the line.


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## tarzan (Mar 4, 2014)

We heat our fairly well insulated 1500sf home in WV with a 2.1cf stove rated for "up to" 2,000sf and it struggles when temps drop to near or below 0f


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## HotCoals (Mar 4, 2014)

weatherguy said:


> A bigger stove, drier wood and a block off plate (if you don't have one) would probably solve problems.
> If the dealer is offering you a bigger stove for just the price difference, jump on it. This is a long term investment and will pay off down the line.


x2


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## Don2222 (Mar 4, 2014)

webby3650 said:


> The OP said they were struggling to heat, how's a pellet stove gonna help with that?  (Joke)



A second stove of any type for more heat could help alot to get off those fossil fuels.


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## WendyO (Mar 4, 2014)

Thank God I knocked on Hearth's door. I sooooo appreciate all this feedback. I will get answers to all questions pending and post back. 
Thanks to all.


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## Dix (Mar 4, 2014)

WendyO said:


> Thank God I knocked on Hearth's door. I sooooo appreciate all this feedback. I will get answers to all questions pending and post back.
> Thanks to all.



Get cracking, we're waiting 

Oh, and welcome to the forums, and Da Sistahood!


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## webby3650 (Mar 4, 2014)

Don2222 said:


> A second stove of any type for more heat could help alot to get off those fossil fuels.


I'm all for that!


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## jatoxico (Mar 4, 2014)

A beer says the installer did not insulate the damper, 2 says there ain't no block off plate.

Wendy is this an exterior chimney? If you have a small cape the insert may be enough to heat the first floor if you make sure the heat gets into the room and is not going up the chimney and if you burn good fuel. First year is not uncommon to have wet wood. Ask your installer to stuff the damper area with Roxul insulation or you can do it yourself for $40-50.


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## razerface (Mar 4, 2014)

I have less experience then the posters before me,,,but it sounds like the stove is not rated to handle your sq footage. I would go bigger. AND do the stuff jatoxico just mentioned while installing


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## prezes13 (Mar 4, 2014)

Wendy I have a lopi cape cod 2.2 cf fire box, my house is a raised ranch, open floor plan living room dining room and kitchen with vaulted ceiling, three bedrooms and a bathroom just under 1200 square feet of living space upstairs where the insert is, house was built in 1994 well insulated 2 by 6 construction.  This insert is rated for 1200-2200 sf it gets my house warm enough72-76 degrees but never cooked me out of the house.  I don't have a block off plate and i have flexible ss liner which is not insulated.  As far as bio bricks not the best from my experience try Eco Bricks you can get them at BT Enterprises in Bristol, I would love to help you run your stove but I am a beginner myself.  Also huge difference if you run your stove 24/7 or few hours a day and let it die out.


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## ddddddden (Mar 5, 2014)

dznam said:


> Your insert is too small to live up to your expectations and undersized for your climate and square footage, no matter how well seasoned your wood is. Take the Superior offer and *upsize* - you'll be much happier.





weatherguy said:


> A *bigger stove*, drier wood and a block off plate (if you don't have one) would probably solve problems.
> If the dealer is offering you a bigger stove for just the price difference, jump on it. This is a long term investment and will pay off down the line.





razerface said:


> . . .I would *go bigger*. AND do the stuff jatoxico just mentioned while installing.


+1
The bottom line is that you can stuff only so much wood into a tiny firebox.  If you're serious about heating your home with wood, that means burning 24/7 in winter. . .not much fun with a small stove that would require loading every ~5 hours.


BrotherBart said:


> The lil Winterport insert firebox is only like *1.2 or 1.4 cubic feet* of space. Good for heating a thousand square feet or so and maybe *four or five hour burns*.






WendyO said:


> . . . Superior Hearth's solution?? Buy a bigger stove for an additional $800.00.
> Has anyone a suggestion for me?


Trade in while you can.
When installing the new stove, get them to seal the damper area of the masonry chimney with a block-off plate.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/make-a-damper-sealing-block-off-plate

Looks like Superior carries Enviro and Pacific Energy stoves too. . .maybe look at those if the big Jøtul is too pricey or won't fit.  Moving forwad, you can improve your wood supply and burn technique. . .why hinder your efforts with a stove that is too small for your needs?

http://www.superiorathome.com/Retail/Inserts/wood.html

http://www.superiorathome.com/Retail/Stoves/wood.html


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## Soundchasm (Mar 5, 2014)

I don't know which Jotul you've got, but my opinion (not shared by all) is that life is much tougher for an insert than a freestanding stove.  A freestander of the same size might do the job by adding all the radiant heat.  So if it's an insert, I'd start trying to mitigate its weaknesses with the techniques mentioned by jatoxico.  That stuff will benefit whatever you put in there.  And BTW, this is my 3rd year with the Rockland, and the first two years had a pretty steep learning curve.  Now that I've discovered jatoxico's advice, I'll take it myself this summer.


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## Ram 1500 with an axe... (Mar 5, 2014)

Just an FYI....not all inserts need a blockoff plate at the bottom, I too have a SS liner, an outside brick chimney....
I did some experimenting this year, I ran the insert without the surround. I came to the conclusion that my insert does not give off heat near the top back or sides. It comes out the front and up the flue. The more I closed the flue, the less heat would go up the flue, the hotter the stove would get, the warmer my room would get. I did this for over a week using an ir thermometer. I did this experiment because many people here say that is the answer, I told my friend who installed it and said I was crazy and not to listen. My problem was babying the stove, not filling it up, amoung others like too many windows and no insulation, the weather, ect....just saying, while we wait for Weny's response....


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## smokedragon (Mar 5, 2014)

Doing The Dixie Eyed Hustle said:


> Missed the part about the Bio Bricks. With those, you should have had some heat, barring crappy house layout / flow, and other hinderences. A smaller fire box is not going to help with the nasty winter we've had.


I agree......if he burned through 100's of dollars of bio bricks, it should have been kicking the heat out.  

I tried some of those in my smoke dragon this winter (ECO bricks, but same thing) because my grandparents house has a woodstove that they don't use.  They wanted to have a small amount of wood on hand for a power outage and thought these would be a good option.  They burn very hot, and are 7% moisture or less.  They are also very dense for a nice long burn.  If the stove wouldn't throw out heat with those, then something else is wrong.

I know many people (myself included) that the first question is firewood.....but that is not a question with a stove running on bio bricks.

I for one think this is an issue of "it will heat up to 1500 sqft" meaning 1500 sqft in south georgia, not 1500 sqft in CT.  The BTU numbers and square footage claims from most of the manufacturers are inflated.




Ram 1500 with an axe... said:


> Wow..... Where do we start.... You need to answer alot of questions in order to get help and a few pics of the room would help......you may need to upgrade to the biggest insert possible, 1 size up won't cut it.....
> What type of wood are you burning?
> How long has it been split and stacked? What is the MC?
> Do you run your stove fully open?
> ...



I second all of these questions (except the wood, since I don't think that's the main issue).

I still think the issue is you were sold a poor solution.  A stove rated at 1300 sqft is not going to heat a 1400sqft house in CT.  Especially if you have single pane windows, drafty house, etc.

That top square footage number is more like winters I see in NC, with a well insulated home (for most manufacturers).


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## mstoelton (Mar 5, 2014)

I know this has been asked but I did not see the answer. 

Are you running the fan on the insert.  Inserts due to their lack of profile (not sticking out into the room) need a fan to distribute the heat they produce.  This can be compounded by not installing block-off plate, insulating flue etc.

Does the insert have a fan and Is the fan running?


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## johnpma (Mar 5, 2014)

tank#2 of oil......how is your hot water heated?


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## BurnIt13 (Mar 5, 2014)

johnpma said:


> tank#2 of oil......how is your hot water heated?



And what size tank?



mstoelton said:


> I know this has been asked but I did not see the answer.?



There have been no answers yet....we are all still sitting on the edge of our chairs waiting for the OP.


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## MishMouse (Mar 5, 2014)

With under seasoned wood your stove is not going to put out the heat that it is supposed to.
Since you are trying to heat 1.4K with a 1.3K stove you are not going to be able to just burn wood, you will only be able to use it to supplement your current heat load.   The stove is just not going to be able to handle heating 1.4K.

When I first bought a stove I went with one that could handle 1.4K and I have a total of 2.K, my intent was to heat my 800 (open) basement to above 70, I had to run that thing above 650 to even keep the basement above 65 it might of heat 1.4K if I ran that thing till it glowed red.  When buying a stove always take what they say it heats with a gain of salt.  Go for a stove that heats a bigger area than you will be heating.  A stove that heats between 1.8 - 2K would have been a better choice. My mistake of going to small cost me around $600.  But, since all the piping is in place you might be able to make a deal with your dealer to get a larger stove at a discount since your dealer should have told you that the stove would have an issue fitting your needs.


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## stoveguy2esw (Mar 5, 2014)

joining in late ,

a couple things i see
1. the OP says the stove is reaching 500F  when its burning so its gotta be lighting off secondaries and burning pretty well,

2. burning biobricks eliminates the "green or unseasoned wood" angle,
3. she says they think her flue isnt drafting right were this the case it would be hard to get the stove to reach those 500F temps on the stove surface.
4. i see no mention of a blower, inserts are severely limited in projecting heat using strictly radiant heat, if the unit doesnt have a blower as most of it is inside the fireplace a lot of heat gets trapped back there.

also i would check as mentiuoned above if the insallation included a block off plate above the smoke chamber. if its not there a large percentage of generated heat gets wasted into the chimney above.

as for BTU projections , one should note that stoves do not create BTU's , the fuel does, now at 40K BTU with 1 lb of wood containing roughly 8500 BTU of stored energy, the unit would have to burn roughly 4.75 LBS of wood per hour to "release" that much energy , of which a percentage of this heat has to leave up the flue (usually 30% "ish") in order to create and maintain draft. this is just the nature of the beast with a wood stove. so "output" of heat would need a higher "lbs per hour" of consumption to give that much heat to the room. the stove should have been an EPA rated unit which would have come with a tag which listed the tested output, do you still have that tag (usually its taped to inside of glass or placed in the stove)

lastly, do we know how well insulated the house is?


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## M1sterM (Mar 5, 2014)

WendyO said:


> ...He said the wood was a bit damp ( though it burns fine in our other fireplace ) and we weren't getting the stove hot enough. ..



Can't believe no one else has mentioned this (I think).  You have an open fireplace that you're trying to heat the house with, too?  That's got to be sucking a ton of heat out of the house as well.

I know everyone else has already said this, but if your wood is not fully dry, you're really strangling what the stove can do.


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## woodgeek (Mar 5, 2014)

Lots of good points above, but I would say...

You are not the only first time insert user to have this problem....we get one a week in here. You are making oodles of heat (cuz there is just ash afterwards), but it simply not getting into your conditioned space.  You need to figure out where it is going and fix it.  Choices are:

1) up the flue inside the liner (because YOU are giving it too much air, which carries the heat up the stack)
2) up the flue outdside the liner (because the INSTALLER didn't seal the top plate on the chimney or the block off plate)
3) out the walls of the chimney (because exterior masonry chimneys suck heat to the great outdoors)

or some/all of the above.

Solutions are:
1) try closing the air down after you have a good fire going with dry wood or bricks, heat should jump up and you should get 'secondaries', and burn can get longer.
2) ask installer if top plate sealed and block off plate installed...send someone on roof to inspect, look behind surround, post pictures here.
3) if chimney is exterior, make sure damper area is either blocked with a metal plate or roxul batt insulation, AND line the masonry firebox with roxul batts between the insert and bricks.


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## begreen (Mar 5, 2014)

This has been a miserably cold winter back east. If the insert hadn't been burning is it possible that you would be on oil tank #3 or 4 by now? Semi-seasoned wood will burn ok in a fireplace but it will burn poorly in a modern wood stove. Dry wood makes a world of difference. Get next years wood delivered and stacked soon and try to avoid getting oak and hickory if possible. It takes at least 2 yrs to season.

Question: Is the insert fireplace on an exterior wall? Did they put in a damper sealing block off plate when the insert was installed?

I would also recommend having a home energy audit done. The house sounds like it may need some tightening up and insulation.


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## Ram 1500 with an axe... (Mar 5, 2014)

M1sterM said:


> Can't believe no one else has mentioned this (I think).  You have an open fireplace that you're trying to heat the house with, too?  That's got to be sucking a ton of heat out of the house as well.
> 
> I know everyone else has already said this, but if your wood is not fully dry, you're really strangling what the stove can do.


This is a great point........I find closing my basement door and doors to rooms that I do not heat with the insert helps quite a bit in heating up the room......why?  Because it stops the cold draft from coming into the room being heated. We were sitting on the couch in front of the insert, we could feel a draft on our necks, I said this is impossible, sure enough, closed the doors and the chilly necks disappeared.....
You may have this issue and not even know it....having another fireplace is probably sucking out whatever heat you are creating, that could be a cause. Still we don't know about the window and insulation situation......
I have 11 single pane Windows and no insulation and I can get my room 72-76 degrees only when properly burning...


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## fire_man (Mar 5, 2014)

Ram 1500 with an axe... said:


> having another fireplace is probably sucking out whatever heat you are creating


 
It's not  just that an unused fireplace can suck heat up the flue. I was amazed the interior rear brick wall of my unused fireplace typically measured 32 degrees during this winter, and that was with a well insulated block off plate replacing the damper. The outdoor cold conducted through the exterior chimney brick directly into the rear wall of the fireplace. It's a MAJOR source of cold into a house that I don't hear mentioned very often.


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## stoveguy2esw (Mar 5, 2014)

fire_man said:


> It's not  just that an unused fireplace can suck heat up the flue. I was amazed the interior rear brick wall of my unused fireplace typically measured 32 degrees during this winter, and that was with a well insulated block off plate replacing the damper. The outdoor cold conducted through the exterior chimney brick directly into the rear wall of the fireplace. It's a MAJOR source of cold into a house that I don't hear mentioned very often.


 


really good point as the cold being conducted through the brick is what it is, even closing the damper in the flue would have no real effect on this.

also, the unused flue may be downdrafting due to the active flue pulling air out of the house using the other flue for "replacement" air.


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## DanCorcoran (Mar 5, 2014)

Our home (not the cabin) was built in 1921 of brick, not brick veneer.  It has two coal fireplaces.  In addition to chimney caps (which we keep closed year-round) we also have fireplace "shields", which cover the opening of the fireplace to keep cold air from entering the room.  They knew in 1921 that a brick chimney and fireplace can be a great source of unwanted cold air.


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## fire_man (Mar 5, 2014)

Fast forward to my house built 64 years later and they lost the recipe for common sense. Now that I understand this heat loss, I will try to fix it.


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## Ram 1500 with an axe... (Mar 5, 2014)

Speaking of recipe, Wendy O, have you tried baking cookies while burning to help keep you warm........
I guess you forgot about us.......


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## WendyO (Mar 5, 2014)

jatoxico said:


> A beer says the installer did not insulate the damper, 2 says there ain't no block off plate.
> 
> Wendy is this an exterior chimney? If you have a small cape the insert may be enough to heat the first floor if you make sure the heat gets into the room and is not going up the chimney and if you burn good fuel. First year is not uncommon to have wet wood. Ask your installer to stuff the damper area with Roxul insulation or you can do it yourself for $40-50.




Jatoxico ~Let's start drinkin.... NO insulation - NO block off plate. I mentioned it to Superior Hearth and they said "I didn't need a block off plate - it's not standard with an installation" - of which I don't believe them. It's just a way to get out of doing something additional, God forbid. " No insulation needed either" .  Are these procedures really not standard when installing?? It's not an technically an exterior chimney, however it backs up to room that was a garage - still a slab floor - converted into a barnsided "mantown" with a large open fireplace on an opposite wall. This room IS blocked off from the rest of the house, as it's only used on weekends and gets to be about 40 degrees when not used. We bought the Roxul the other day. We'll do it.


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## WendyO (Mar 5, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> Lots of good points above, but I would say...
> 
> You are not the only first time insert user to have this problem....we get one a week in here. You are making oodles of heat (cuz there is just ash afterwards), but it simply not getting into your conditioned space.  You need to figure out where it is going and fix it.  Choices are:
> 
> ...




Woodgeek - I am climbing on the roof this weekend and looking down the damn chimney! I will get pictures.


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## Kosmik (Mar 5, 2014)

tarzan said:


> We heat our fairly well insulated 1500sf home in WV with a 2.1cf stove rated for "up to" 2,000sf and it struggles when temps drop to near or below 0f


2.2cuft firebox on a 1,300-1,400 sqft home for me.  Most the time I have the two upstairs bedrooms closed off making it closer to a 1,000 sqft ranch.
If I don't get it started by 4-5pm on a cold day {below 45, little/if any sun}, I have a hard time keeping the house above 68.

If your home is real drafty having an open window (cracked) nearby or an outdoor air kit, will help the 'feeling' cold.


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## WendyO (Mar 5, 2014)

Ram 1500 with an axe... said:


> Speaking of recipe, Wendy O, have you tried baking cookies while burning to help keep you warm........
> I guess you forgot about us.......




 LOL.... no... I didn't forget about you... I'm working on it!  I have been posting replies~!


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## begreen (Mar 5, 2014)

WendyO said:


> Jatoxico ~Let's start drinkin.... NO insulation - NO block off plate. I mentioned it to Superior Hearth and they said "I didn't need a block off plate - it's not standard with an installation" - of which I don't believe them. It's just a way to get out of doing something additional, God forbid. " No insulation needed either" .  Are these procedures really not standard when installing?? It's not an technically an exterior chimney, however it backs up to room that was a garage - still a slab floor - converted into a barnsided "mantown" with a large open fireplace on an opposite wall. This room IS blocked off from the rest of the house, as *it's only used on weekends and gets to be about 40 degrees when not used*. We bought the Roxul the other day. We'll do it.


My guess is they were just trying to be competitive with their bidding. A block-off plate is good sense in this case but not required or "standard". It is an extra cost requiring additional fab and installation time and materials.

*Bingo* Bringing up a room from 40F takes a ton of heat. That is part of the problem. It could take the better part of a day pumping heat into the room to get it up to temp. You not only have to get the air hot but all the contents of the room, walls and ceiling too.


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## WendyO (Mar 5, 2014)

stoveguy2esw said:


> joining in late ,
> 
> a couple things i see
> 1. the OP says the stove is reaching 500F  when its burning so its gotta be lighting off secondaries and burning pretty well,
> ...





Stoveguy - The blower does get used - it's set to go on "auto". However - NO block off plate or insulation! Since it would be tough to put the plate in, I could at least insulate, right? And... I have an attic floor about this room the I JUST learned about 15 minutes ago - is actually asbestos... After reading everyone's suggestions the last 24 hours, I thought to myself it's time to add additional insulation to the attics. I remember this gray loose stuff under the floor up there and GOOGLED "Insulation used in houses built in the 50's". A picture came up showing exactly what's up there - with the caption: ASBESTOS. So... if my house doesn't burn down first, then I'll die of asbestos poisoning.


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## xman23 (Mar 5, 2014)

All of what you said sounds like the worst possible conditions for this stove to work. Beside the heat going up the chimney, the location of the stove room doesn't sound very good. Buyer beware. It is hard to get it right on your own, but your paid a so called professional.


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## WendyO (Mar 5, 2014)

Ram 1500 with an axe... said:


> Just an FYI....not all inserts need a blockoff plate at the bottom, I too have a SS liner, an outside brick chimney....
> I did some experimenting this year, I ran the insert without the surround. I came to the conclusion that my insert does not give off heat near the top back or sides. It comes out the front and up the flue. The more I closed the flue, the less heat would go up the flue, the hotter the stove would get, the warmer my room would get. I did this for over a week using an ir thermometer. I did this experiment because many people here say that is the answer, I told my friend who installed it and said I was crazy and not to listen. My problem was babying the stove, not filling it up, amoung others like too many windows and no insulation, the weather, ect....just saying, while we wait for Weny's response....




Hi Ram - why don't all stoves need a block off plate? ( Of which we don't have... buy we did get the insulation not too long ago and will be putting that in this weekend.... )


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## WendyO (Mar 5, 2014)

ddddddden said:


> +1
> The bottom line is that you can stuff only so much wood into a tiny firebox.  If you're serious about heating your home with wood, that means burning 24/7 in winter. . .not much fun with a small stove that would require loading every ~5 hours.
> 
> 
> ...




DDDDD ---- I think I will go larger. ( Darn it... I wish I didn't have to spend the money ) I really like the look of the Jotul - and will probably go from the 350 to the 550. What the heck. What do you ( or anyone ) recommend? Should I go with the larger Jotul `for $800 more - or go with the same upgrade in size with a Pacific Energy for an additional $300????? This is an investment. I want a good stove. I'll worry about the payment later...


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## WendyO (Mar 5, 2014)

begreen said:


> My guess is they were just trying to be competitive with their bidding. A block-off plate is good sense in this case but not required or "standard". It is an extra cost requiring additional fab and installation time and materials.
> 
> *Bingo* Bringing up a room from 40F takes a ton of heat. That is part of the problem. It could take the better part of a day pumping heat into the room to get it up to temp. You not only have to get the air hot but all the contents of the room, walls and ceiling too.



The woodstove is not in that room. The COLD room is on the other side of the wall to it, and that room is blocked of from the rest of the house - only used on weekends. There is no woodstove in there. MY living room ( not mantown )  has the woodstove in it.


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## begreen (Mar 5, 2014)

Ah, got it. Might as well go big if the fireplace will accommodate a large stove. One insert to suggest is the Enviro Venice. Another is the Hampton HI 300. Both are very good looking and good heaters. In PE their big one is the Summit.


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## WendyO (Mar 5, 2014)

WendyO said:


> I saved for 3 years to buy a wood stove insert this past November, thinking it would help keep my fuel costs down. I paid an arm and a leg for a Jotul, that claimed to put out 40,000 btu's for up to 1,300 sq. ft. It's the smallest insert of the 3 I looked at - but I live in a small house ( 1,400 sq. foot Cape. ) so I bought it. After burning through 1.5 cords of wood - and 100's of $ of bio bricks ( as we were told to try by retailer who sold us the stove ) and now on tank #2 of oil AND a kerosene heater in addition,  I can honestly say that claim of 40,000 btu's is bull! I am so upset about this I can't tell you. After MANY phone calls to the retailer, a service tech FINALLY came to the house to check out the stove. He said the wood was a bit damp ( though it burns fine in our other fireplace ) and we weren't getting the stove hot enough. As a result, it wasn't putting out the heat. Duh. Really? So I bought a thermometer, and got the insert consistently up over 500 degrees. Still no great results. Now we're into end of January - and they tell us perhaps the chimney isn't drafting right. So... the service tech comes and extends the top of our center chimney by 3 feet because perhaps the draft wasn't working properly. It worked a bit better - but STILL not getting that " need to wear only a t-shirt " kind of heat. No where near it. Now it's March --- many many phone calls later and still no solution. I am so upset about this $3,800 investment that I am ready to go to the Better Business Bureau about Superior Hearth, Spa and Leisure in Southington, CT  who could CARE LESS - and Jotul Corporate about their misrepresentation. Superior's solution?? Buy a bigger stove for an additional $800.00
> 
> Has anyone a suggestion for me? Am I doing something wrong? Please...





I've learned some things from all of you...

1.Start chopping wood now - to be well seasoned for next year. And very very very dry. 
2. No Oak or Ash. 
3. Perhaps I need a bigger stove for what I'm trying to heat.
4. Keep it stoked and once it's cranking, keep the control lever open 1/8" . 
5. I need to re-insulate my house. It will help retain the heat - and by removing the asbestos I found in the attic today, I will live longer.
6. I need to look at new windows - and have an energy audit done for any additional suggestions.

This is only the beginning.


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## Dix (Mar 5, 2014)

Nothing wrong with oak or ash. Both need to be seasoned. Oak will be your friend in the dead of "0" winter.


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## begreen (Mar 5, 2014)

Oak and hickory take a couple years to season after splitting but ash is wonderful short seasoning wood. If you can get ash go for it. 
It's good to consider tightening up the house. Leave the windows until last (but with storm windows). New windows are expensive and have a much longer ROI.


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## WendyO (Mar 5, 2014)

begreen said:


> Ah, got it. Might as well go big if the fireplace will accommodate a large stove. One insert to suggest is the Enviro Venice. Another is the Hampton HI 300. Both are very good looking and good heaters. In PE their big one is the Summit.



B - I have to stay with the original retailer... They are only charging me for the upgrade or I can pick another brand that they carry. ( Pacific Energy - but I don't like the way it looks. I like the Jotul better. )


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## begreen (Mar 5, 2014)

If you are going to insulate and improve house sealing then that will reduce the heat requirements. Perhaps then the Jotul C450 will suffice. It is a nice insert.


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## weatherguy (Mar 5, 2014)

Is it $800 more for the 550? I would go with that one, I'd prefer the Summit but the 450 and 550's are both nice stoves too.


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## WendyO (Mar 5, 2014)

weatherguy said:


> Is it $800 more for the 550? I would go with that one, I'd prefer the Summit but the 450 and 550's are both nice stoves too.





weatherguy said:


> Is it $800 more for the 550? I would go with that one, I'd prefer the Summit but the 450 and 550's are both nice stoves too.



$800 in addition to the $3,800 I already paid!


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## weatherguy (Mar 5, 2014)

WendyO said:


> $800 in addition to the $3,800 I already paid!


 I understand, these stoves and installation aren't cheap but once you get squared away your house will be warmer and oil bills smaller so it will pay off, just look at this year as your orientation to wood burning.


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## Ram 1500 with an axe... (Mar 5, 2014)

WendyO said:


> Hi Ram - why don't all stoves need a block off plate? ( Of which we don't have... buy we did get the insulation not too long ago and will be putting that in this weekend.... )


Put it in, it can't hurt...


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## Ram 1500 with an axe... (Mar 5, 2014)

I vote for the 550....gl


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## brenndatomu (Mar 5, 2014)

WendyO said:


> So... if my house doesn't burn down first, then I'll die of asbestos poisoning.


Look at the bright side, at least the asbestos won't burn! ......... sorry, I'll go to my room now


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## coldkiwi (Mar 5, 2014)

Is the summits firebox bigger than the 550?


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## dyerkutn (Mar 5, 2014)

WendyO said:


> I've learned some things from all of you...


Hearth.com comes to the rescue again--what a great forum. So glad to hear you are willing to stick with your investment.

This has been a REALLY harsh winter.  I am a first year burner and I was hoping to not use any oil but have had to use some because of the extreme cold.

I have an Alderlea made by Pacific Energy--I don't know if they have inserts but they have the same box as the PE's but a beautiful look because the steel is covered with a cast iron apron. Good luck. Don't give up.


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## jimdrea (Mar 5, 2014)

It's tough choice, but I say in for a penny in for a pound. Your already committed and if they will upgrade you for 800 more for a much bigger unit I say go for it. Today I had a Napoleon 1402 insert installed at 1pm. Right now my 1400 sq foot down stairs is 74 degrees. I'm burning 3 year old oak that my neighbor gave me . Good luck let us know how you make out, I feel your anxiety.


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## Soundchasm (Mar 5, 2014)

WendyO said:


> Hi Ram - why don't all stoves need a block off plate? ( Of which we don't have... buy we did get the insulation not too long ago and will be putting that in this weekend.... )



Check with the experts here to make sure you leave a clearance between the insulation and the stove.  My understanding is there needs to be space to naturally convect heat away from the stove and not concentrate it in the appliance itself.  Might shoot for insulating the left, right, back and top if possible to do so safely.

The blower pulls a ton of heat out of the stove (that's the point, right?), but if you had a roaring fire and electric goes off, your stove might hit temperatures that'll get your heart racing if it's totally packed with insulation.  And your stove may have a secondary air intake in the rear that needs to stay open.  These guys know all that stuff.  Check your clearance, Clarence.


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## begreen (Mar 5, 2014)

dyerkutn said:


> Hearth.com comes to the rescue again--what a great forum. So glad to hear you are willing to stick with your investment.
> 
> This has been a REALLY harsh winter.  I am a first year burner and I was hoping to not use any oil but have had to use some because of the extreme cold.
> 
> I have an Alderlea made by Pacific Energy--I don't know if they have inserts but they have the same box as the PE's but a beautiful look because the steel is covered with a cast iron apron. Good luck. Don't give up.



Not a bad suggestion. Take a look at the Alderlea Insert.


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## Huntindog1 (Mar 5, 2014)

WendyO, I wanted to point out when you said the wood burns in the fire place, that a fire place has alot of air so subpar wood would burn but the same wood can be bad for these newer epa stoves. These stoves are more like smoke burners. The extra moisture in sub par not so seasoned wood cools the stove and doesnt get the stove into its smoke burning mode of operation. But the other guys are right you need a bigger stove. Just wanted to explain this aspect.


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## jatoxico (Mar 5, 2014)

Few installers seem to want to do a block off plate, just how it is. Insulation though is mandatory IMO. My installer wanted to use the pink stuff and only on top (by the cap). I got them to do top and bottom although they did not do the bottom to my satisfaction and I ended up doing it again.

If this is supplemental heat insulate and make sure you're getting the most out of it through proper operation. There is a definite learning curve to get good heat. If you're convinced you need more, upgrade. I have the 550 and I'm happy but I needed a flush mount unit. The Kennebec 450 is very capable and extends (adjustably) onto the hearth. Therefore heats a little better for it's size and depends less on the fans which is especially useful during power outages. Do a search on that unit here and see what you think. From what I have read there is not a big drop off in performance despite the manufacturers quoted spec's.


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## Ram 1500 with an axe... (Mar 5, 2014)

jatoxico said:


> Few installers seem to want to do a block off plate, just how it is. Insulation though is mandatory IMO. My installer wanted to use the pink stuff and only on top (by the cap). I got them to do top and bottom although they did not do the bottom to my satisfaction and I ended up doing it again.
> 
> If this is supplemental heat insulate and make sure you're getting the most out of it through proper operation. There is a definite learning curve to get good heat. If you're convinced you need more, upgrade. I have the 550 and I'm happy but I needed a flush mount unit. The Kennebec 450 is very capable and extends (adjustably) onto the hearth. Therefore heats a little better for it's size and depends less on the fans which is especially useful during power outages. Do a search on that unit here and see what you think. From what I have read there is not a big drop off in performance despite the manufacturers quoted spec's.


I think they don't do it because it is not necessary....IMO....also I asked about an insulated liner, they said 99% of all installs are not insulated......


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## jatoxico (Mar 5, 2014)

Ram 1500 with an axe... said:


> I think they don't do it because it is not necessary....IMO....also I asked about an insulated liner, they said 99% of all installs are not insulated......



Many people have seen significant improvement in output after insulating the damper and block off plate (myself included). May not be necessary for a safe install but for max heat the surround alone will not cut it.


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## Ram 1500 with an axe... (Mar 5, 2014)

Idk.... My unit doesn't give off heat in the back, on top, or sides of it, the heat goes out the flue and out the front.......so how would a block off plate benefit that? Believe me, when I heard many people preaching the block off plate, I investigated, I was shooting my ir gun at every angle for many hours....maybe these new units are built differently?


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## jatoxico (Mar 5, 2014)

Ram 1500 with an axe... said:


> Idk.... My unit doesn't give off heat in the back, on top, or sides of it, the heat goes out the flue and out the front.......so how would a block off plate benefit that? Believe me, when I heard many people preaching the block off plate, I investigated, I was shooting my ir gun at every angle for many hours....maybe these new units are built differently?



The heat shielding is effective at keeping heat like you said but can always be better. I was losing heat from the flue collar and the exposed pipe. The block off keeps that heat from going up into the smoke chamber. The heat from the liner itself as it passed though the damper etc (before getting into the clay tile) was going into the empty smoke chamber and above the damper area. That heat was being lost to the brick. I was able to measure a 50 F difference on the exterior brick at the level of the smoke chamber. Example on a 30 degree day the brick was 80 F or more. So no doubt the liner was not performing as well as it could. 

With the smoke chamber stuffed with Roxul and a plate there is no cold convection currents, my surround gets much hotter and the exterior brick is now only about 5 degree above ambient. I pulled the insert off the wall 1/2" to let the hot air trapped by the plate out from behind the surround. Seems to work.

It may not be night and day for you but just add the Roxul and recheck your temps I'd bet they would be somewhat higher. Even if you just improve the heat retention of the liner so you get less creosote it would be worth it.


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## BrotherBart (Mar 5, 2014)

Net net if the dealer doesn't have other stoves that 550 will be a sea change in heating if it will fit. Hell of a fireplace insert.


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## BrotherBart (Mar 5, 2014)

Ram 1500 with an axe... said:


> Idk.... My unit doesn't give off heat in the back, on top, or sides of it, the heat goes out the flue and out the front.......so how would a block off plate benefit that? Believe me, when I heard many people preaching the block off plate, I investigated, I was shooting my ir gun at every angle for many hours....maybe these new units are built differently?



You did this without the surround on the insert while it was burning?


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## Dix (Mar 5, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> Net net if the dealer doesn't have other stoves that 550 will be a sea change in heating if it will fit. Hell of a fireplace insert.



Wendy, make sure  a new unit will fit in the FP before committing to it. You'll be pretty ticked off if it doesn't.

And get cracking on the firewood


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## BrotherBart (Mar 5, 2014)

Two weeks after I installed the 30-NC in the fireplace a guy six miles from me listed a C550 insert new on the pallet on craigslist for $775. If I hadn't already installed the bad boy I would have been all over that insert.


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## Ram 1500 with an axe... (Mar 5, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> You did this without the surround on the insert while it was burning?


Yes, I took off the surround for a full week, I had ir gun in hand often, the only place the insert was losing heat was up the flue, I had cobwebs in the fireplace, if I remember correctly, the inside brick was 50 degrees, not soaking up heat from the insert.... You could keep your hand everywhere except for on the flue...... I would close the air and the flue would cool down immediately....


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## jatoxico (Mar 5, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> Two weeks after I installed the 30-NC in the fireplace a guy six miles from me listed a C550 insert new on the pallet on craigslist for $775. If I hadn't already installed the bad boy I would have been all over that insert.



Not the longest burn time around but seems to be pretty bulletproof.


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## BrotherBart (Mar 5, 2014)

Ram 1500 with an axe... said:


> Yes, I took off the surround for a full week, I had ir gun in hand often, the only place the insert was losing heat was up the flue, I had cobwebs in the fireplace, if I remember correctly, the inside brick was 50 degrees, not soaking up heat from the insert.... You could keep your hand everywhere except for on the flue...... I would close the air and the flue would cool down immediately....



Just for clarification. "up the flue" was inside or outside the liner?


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## Ram 1500 with an axe... (Mar 5, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> Just for clarification. "up the flue" was inside our outside the liner?


The thick heavy metal collar connected to the insert and the stainless steel liner. Outside using the ir gun, that metal can't be any hotter inside then on the outside  when your burning hot and hard


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## BrotherBart (Mar 5, 2014)

So heat was going up the chimney instead of being retained to go into the living space. Exactly what a block off plate is for. Has nothing to do with pipe temps. It has to do with heat going up into the chimney around the outside of the liner instead of being retained to heat your house.


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## Ram 1500 with an axe... (Mar 5, 2014)

If a stove is 700 degrees, your telling me the flue shouldn't be 350 degrees or so?
You shouldn't see heatwaves at the top of the chimney?


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## Ram 1500 with an axe... (Mar 5, 2014)

Heat is going up my 6 inch stainless steel liner, the more I close the stove, the lower the heat goes up


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## Ram 1500 with an axe... (Mar 5, 2014)

My room gets 72-76 degrees depending how I run the stove, I have 11 single pane windows, no insulation, plaster walls, and a whipping wind at times, been 10-20 degrees lately and it heats my space when I run it, I'm not feeling like I'm losing heat


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## BrotherBart (Mar 5, 2014)

You are missing the point. Nothing to do with inside the pipe. You have heat coming off of the surface of the stove going up the chimney outside of the liner instead of being retained inside the fireplace to heat the house. If you can't get that through your head, just keep on keeping on and be happy.

Hopefully the OP gets the point. 

Done here.


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## Ram 1500 with an axe... (Mar 5, 2014)

The only heat loss that I have is inside the flue that's why I can not comprehend what a blockoff plate would accomplish, it's not hot behind my surround inside the fireplace, if I had a block off plate, it would still be hot inside my 6 inch ss liner... Sweet dreams


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## begreen (Mar 5, 2014)

One insert installation doesn't equal another. Your insert appears to be unique. It is the first one I have heard of that radiates no heat from its convection jacket.


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## BrotherBart (Mar 5, 2014)

It is a very small flush mounted wood stove behind a fireplace surround. The only way out for the small amount of heat it can produce is through the blowers. And none of Jotuls inserts are designed for convection.


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## Bigg_Redd (Mar 6, 2014)

dznam said:


> Your insert is too small to live up to your expectations and undersized for your climate and square footage no matter how well seasoned your wood is. *Take the Superior offer and upsize - you'll be much happier*.



This.  My parents have wrestled with an undersized Jotul insert (550)and are finally taking the replacement plunge.


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## Bigg_Redd (Mar 6, 2014)

WendyO said:


> DDDDD ---- I think I will go larger. ( Darn it... I wish I didn't have to spend the money ) I really like the look of the Jotul - and will probably go from the 350 to the 550. What the heck. What do you ( or anyone ) recommend? Should I go with the larger Jotul `for $800 more - or go with the same upgrade in size with a Pacific Energy for an additional $300????? This is an investment. I want a good stove. I'll worry about the payment later...




PE.  More bang for buck.


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## Bigg_Redd (Mar 6, 2014)

coldkiwi said:


> Is the summits firebox bigger than the 550?



Way bigger if you're talking about useable space.  The 550 is rated at only 65,000 BTUs vs 99,000 for the Summit


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## Charles1981 (Mar 6, 2014)

Get the biggest stove you can imo.

There are rare instances where too big of a stove can blow you out of house and home, but I think given what you have experienced thus far with a small stove you want to go as big as you can.

Regardless I do feel you may have issues with heat even upgrading to a bigger stove. I think an insulated liner, blockoff, and insulation around the surround will help substantially with a bigger stove, but If your wood is wet you may still have lackluster heat production until you get ahead....There are still many tales of woe on here with owners of wet wood and big honking stoves.

But still get the biggest stove you can shove in there....It also means you won't have to reload every 3-4 hours.


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## ddahlgren (Mar 6, 2014)

There are some realities to look at. The average cord of hardwood has about 20 million btu per cord if perfectly seasoned.  It is not perfectly seasoned in any way if burned the same year it is cut. It would have to be kiln dried for that to happen. You are probably losing 20% for that alone. Giving the average insert a rating of 80% efficient is very generous but for the sake of argument lets be generous. Now you have 12.8 million btu of heat to heat the house in a cord of wood. The stove is fantasy rated at 60,000 /hr. that is with kiln dried wood and lab conditions and not a 24 hour rating that is a peak output at the highest safe temperature for short term use. This brings up the question how long does it take to burn a cord of wood with a 1.2 cu. ft. firebox. I have a free standing stove that happens to be that size and 3 years heating with it so I have a clue about this. If you got 60,000 btu per hour the 12.8 million btu net rating wood it would last slightly less than 9 days and with the firebox size you would have to reload and never let the stove get below 50% full and never stop to clean ashes or burn down coals. This would be a full time job 24/7.  I can burn a cord a month if I really stay on top of things but 5 weeks probably closer. In the case of last month with all those brutal days I went through 3/4 cord of wood and 25 packs of bio bricks and eco bricks combined as well. They are handy in the morning or getting the stove up to temp quickly after a burn down and clean out. As far as heat goes when the stove is on the average burn part of the cycle the room the stove is in will be 75 the rest of the first floor is 60 something the second story bed rooms mid to high 50s on a 10 to 20 degree day.

For the 3800 you spent on the too small stove a professional should have done heat loss calculations to tell you how big a stove you needed in the first place rather than you tell him what you like and going with it under the assumption it will probably be ok. If they don't know how and have the software to do it and the software that makes it quick and easy they are not a professional in the heating business. There is hope as there are free calculators online and plenty of good web pages to help determine the infiltration numbers. All you need to do this is a ruler thermometer and internet connection and about 4 hours. The numbers it will spit out will be in btu per hour assuming for the most part oil or gas heat and will be higher than you really need for wood or coal for that matter. You can cross check these by taking the amount of oil you burned or you neighbors did between fillings and multiply that that by 100,000 and divide by the number of hours between a fill up. EX. 175 gallons over 3 weeks with both fills at 10 am.(175 X 100,000) / 504 hours = 34722 btu per hour. Ask a neighbor if need be if they have a similar house how much they burn and how warm they keep their house. If they say something around the example given I would at least double that number to 70,000 to 90,000 btu to get 'stove ratings'.

Making the house tighter is the easiest way to need less heat. The best bang for the buck is 3M interior wind film along with gaskets for exterior wall electrical outlets and switch plates  Tight door sweeps and gaskets as a must as well. For the wood you have on hand now I would split it down to nothing bigger than a 2 X 3 or 2 X 4 and store tomorrows wood next the stove as it will have the driest air in the house..


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## blades (Mar 6, 2014)

Hi Wendy, and welcome. 
  Insulation - I believe it would not be necessary to remove the present insulation, it is not in a living space and therefore doesn't not represent a hazard ( I could be wrong but remediation now days would unbelievably expensive) You can add insulation over the top, I would recommend blown in cellulose because it does not have/ allow air transport through it when properly installed, something that none of the fiberglass types will tell you ( fiberglass insulation actually loses R value as the temps dip do to air transport through it - something else they do not tell you) additionally as the cellulose settles it does not lose R value ( another do not tell thing with fiberglass)  It is also treated with fire retardant as well as bug and rodent stuff. Cost is about the same or a little less.

  Windows- unless the framing and /or sills are way out of square or rotted it is not necessary to replace the whole assembly, They make replacement sash kits ( wood) ( I used Champion)  with all the good features at considerably less than all the window ads ( stay away from vinyl windows they shrink and crack with age) Note that Vinyl, Alum. window units do not expand and contract at the same rate as your wood framing and generally start leaking after a year or so.  Only the fiberglass units are very close to wood in expansion and contraction but are of premium price. Also note the sash units can be a DIY thing if your so inclined there by saving a bunch more. ( Toss out the previous if your window assemblies including the frame are not wooden).

  Insert- block off plate- absolutely top and bottom ,  otherwise  a lot of heat lost right up the chase and that include additional heat from your conventional heating appliance. You can burn a fireplace 24/7 and whatch your heating bill actually increase. naysayers beware
  If the unit/s are capable of being set up with an outside air source ( commonly called an OAK) do it, this reduces( won't eliminate) the migration of cold air to the unit from other rooms as well as from out side through every nook and cranny - again naysayers beware. ( nothing more uncomfortable than a small hurricane of cold air at ankle level feeding the fire).

   Flue - I gathered that it is sort of in an inside chase - so technically an insulated flue is not needed, additionally there might not have been enough room to install same. At the same time insulated flues generally preform better than non- insulated ones.

Best wishes on your quest.  ( dang editor wouldn't let paragraph insets so spaced apart)


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## hamsey (Mar 6, 2014)

Wendy,

We recently had Superior install a Jotul Rockland at the end of January. When shopping I stated I wanted a block off plate and roxul. Paid extra for the Block off plate made it myself in had it in place. Went and bought roxul at Lowes as I needed more for the gas stove.

When they came to do the install they did not install the plate claiming there was note enough room. They did install roxul at the top of the chimney and above the stove. Install went fine but they were in a hurry together to the next install.

Upset that they did not install the plate I went ahead and did the install myself. Quite a bit of choice words but I did get it in place. I asked about an insulated liner and was told that I did not need it. I dealt with the Avon store when purchasing.

I would get the bigger stove, block off plate and insulating. Not sure who did your install but Sweep Away located in Wolcott did ours. I am going to have them come back and pull the liner and insulate it along with some other work I Ned to have done on the chimney.

As others have said dry wood is a must. Being our first year we are short  on wood burning most of it in the open fireplace. Trying to get ahead on wood but is difficult with the winter we are having. I was able to score two cords from AJ in Farmington that was CSS for a year and stacked that for next winter. Still too wet to use this year.

As is usually the case bigger is always better. Surprised that Superior would offer you the upgrade, I would jump at it.


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## Kosmik (Mar 6, 2014)

WendyO said:


> I remember this gray loose stuff under the floor up there and GOOGLED "Insulation used in houses built in the 50's". A picture came up showing exactly what's up there - with the caption: ASBESTOS. So... if my house doesn't burn down first, then I'll die of asbestos poisoning.


Is there any openings to disturb the asbestos? Gable vents?  Plumbing heating penetrations?  Don't go up there, I'd be more worried about what gaps I can see from living spaces.  The AB problem comes from breathing it, and like fine ash it is small and gets everywhere.  I've had friends do mitigation themselves, but they were real DIYers, and still used a truckload of ducttape and plastic sheeting.

The biggest problems with asbestos come when you do some remodeling and thus disturb it, bring it into the living space, or worse and probably root of cause home problems you make a direct airway from previously undisturbed asbestos area to living space.  AB mitigation is no small task, sometimes the best/cheapest option is to just leave it be.

In summary, I wouldn't even enter my attic, not even to add more insulation (save to take a sample for testing) if I thought it contained asbestos...And I'd caulk shut the hatch.

If you think it's asbestos and you think you'll be insulating before next winter, get a pro to check it or maybe send a sample to a lab first.

Cellulose is cheap and easy to blow (probably less hazardous dust, too).  Worked well for me.  Plus it's making use of old newspapers.

What I thought from when I did attic insulation and look into it, which may be wrong, is fiberglass doesn't settle as much as cellulose.  That when cellulose settles you do lose some R-value, just as when any insulation settles and less airspace is trapped.  So cellulose needs reblowing in a few years to re-up the R-value.

While expensive there are DIY foam kits to do X board feet (expensive, like 200 board feet $300), but for an entire attic a professional may come in close.  Foam will give you best sealing of air leaks.

Still, blowing cellulose is kinda fun and can usually rent the blower cheap or free with purchase of cellulose.  Need two people, one to blow, one to load...A third wouldn't hurt.  Helps to caulk/seal everything in attic or from below, as the cellulose dust finds it's way through some pretty small cracks.

Bigger stove will help, but heating of buildings is artful too.  If having real troubles try making foam board or blanket insulations to put over windows that aren't taking in good sunlight.  Even a fancy double pane window will have an R-Value of under 4.   In solar homes many will shutter the windows at night with some form of insulation.

And as funny as it may sound, cracking a window in the same room as the unit (nearer the better) can make a drafty house warmer...As the stove pulls air from the near window and not the front door or upstairs window or other far off gap in cold part of house.

And when you'll really feel the heat off a stove is when its air control is throttled all the way back and you have a steady secondary going.  Having to give it more oxygen (air control open) to keep secondary going is a sign of not dry wood.  Plus then it's not just heat going up the chimney, but cold air being brought into the house to feed the fire working against you.


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## webby3650 (Mar 6, 2014)

Just keep in mind that insulating the liner will do nothing to improve the heat that is coming from the unit. So paying to have it removed and insulated will have a very poor rate of return. 
That being said, I am a firm believer in insulating a liner. We always insulate, it's so easy and does not add much cost if its done before its installed.


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## dave_376 (Mar 6, 2014)

As everyone else has said you need to insulate. Superior isn't a bad store, they are just like every other dealer in CT I have talked to. None want to insulate the liner or install a block off plate. They are not required by building code so they done need to install them, but they will gladly come back out and charge you extra to add them later. 

Burn all the ash you can get. Oak needs to be cut and split longer but It also burns great. 

I would look at the Pacific Energy Aldera T5 insert as an alternative to a Jotul. Jotul's are fantastic stoves and I would have no reservations about burning a properly sized Jotul in my house. The PE might put off heat faster after a cold start than a Jotul because of the amount of cast iron. Cast iron takes a long time to heat up but it also radiates that heat off long after the fire has died.

Don't get discouraged with burning wood!! Keep at it and learn how to burn effectively and stick it to the oil man.


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## dyerkutn (Mar 6, 2014)

dave_376 said:


> Cast iron takes a long time to heat up but it also radiates that heat off long after the fire has died.


So true. That is the stove I have---once the heat has absorbed into everything  in the room it holds for a really long time and if you don't let it die down too soon it is really easy to relight if you have dry wood.


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## webbie (Mar 6, 2014)

WendyO said:


> Thank God I knocked on Hearth's door. I sooooo appreciate all this feedback. I will get answers to all questions pending and post back.
> Thanks to all.



Most of these posts are right on!

Bottom line - the combo of about the coldest winter I remember, an undersized stove, etc. is probably the culprit.

We have been educating people here since 1995 not to put faith in brochures and claims from any manufacturer. There is hardly a stove out there which can put out 40K BTU on a constant level. It's a matter of simple math - which is why we developed some calculators to do the work for you.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/burn_time_calculator

If I worked backwards through that calculator, I would see that it would take a 3 CF firebox stuffed with harder wood to have a 6 hour burn at 40K BTU...

On the other hand, if this was a winter where we had weeks of 45-50 degree days in Jan/Feb, you'd probably think the stove was really doing a good (or better) job.

So you want to maximize everything - the wood, the installation, the firebox size, etc. to match the job you are trying to accomplish.


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## fire_man (Mar 6, 2014)

I almost gave up on woodstoves but thanks to this Forum I stuck with it and learned the right way to heat my house with wood.

Stick with it and you'll be doing the same.


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## TradEddie (Mar 6, 2014)

While I agree with others that the combination of an incredibly cold winter, small stove and poorly insulated house are part of the problem, I don't think anyone has addressed your air control. It's not intuitive how a stove air control works, it's not like a thermostat or gas pedal, more air does not give more heat, there is a sweet spot depending on your stove and the dryness of your wood where you will get the most heat, open it too much and the fire burns hotter, it looks great, but the heat goes up the chimney, close it too far and you starve the fire. At just the right spot you send enough air to gently scorch the wood on the bottom, driving off flammable gases and smoke that burn at the secondary tubes. Do you have a stovetop thermometer? For $20 they are about the best investment you can make, second only to investing in time for well seasoned wood. 

TE


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## becasunshine (Mar 7, 2014)

WendyO said:


> Stoveguy - The blower does get used - it's set to go on "auto". However - NO block off plate or insulation! Since it would be tough to put the plate in, I could at least insulate, right? And... I have an attic floor about this room the I JUST learned about 15 minutes ago - is actually asbestos... After reading everyone's suggestions the last 24 hours, I thought to myself it's time to add additional insulation to the attics. I remember this gray loose stuff under the floor up there and GOOGLED "Insulation used in houses built in the 50's". A picture came up showing exactly what's up there - with the caption: ASBESTOS. So... if my house doesn't burn down first, then I'll die of asbestos poisoning.



WendyO, we have a 1950s brick and block bungalow with no wall insulation- brick, block, plaster and mud, and we have the gray fluffy stuff under the original floor boards in the attic, as well as in between the attic floor joists, underneath the more modern R19 batting insulation that a previous owner put in between the floor joists.  There was an original certificate nailed to a roof joist cross beam/member in the attic certifying that the original rock wool insulation was installed in 1958. 

So, there's a possibility that the gray fluffy stuff in your attic is not asbestos- but if you are going to disturb it, you will want to make sure.  Not sure how you would go about making sure but you'll want someone with certifiable knowledge on the subject matter to advise you.

Insulation *is* key.  We have a freestanding Napoleon NPS40 pellet stove in this 1950s brick and block bungalow that is rated to heat 2000 sq. ft. (and we all know what they say about wood burning appliance ratings.)  This bungalow is 1410-1420 sq. ft. and that pellet stove could not carry this house by itself in the coldest weather until this year.  Yeah, I know what I just said.  

We'd added batting R30 insulation over the original rock wool and the R19 insulation in the attic, and we'd had a company install a radiant barrier on the underside of the roof and the inside of the gable walls.  Prior to adding attic insulation and the radiant barrier, we'd added cell shades to the windows, and thermal curtain panels over the cell shades on some windows, regular curtains over the cell shades on other windows.  (The house had double pane replacement windows installed throughout when we bought it.)  All of those improvements helped a lot but the pellet stove still couldn't carry the house.

Early this fall, we added UL approved outlet and switch plate insulated inserts to ALL of the outlets and switches, on both exterior/perimeter walls and on interior walls.  The effect was the equivalent of closing a door or a window.  The lack of insulation in the walls made the electrical outlet and switch penetrations in the walls act like little chimneys, funneling the conditioned air from inside the living space in the house, up through the non-insulated walls and into the attic.  Sealing up the wall penetrations reduced that air leakage.  Then my husband caulked, spray foamed, or otherwise sealed the penetrations from the ceiling into the attic.  When we peeled back the newer, white R30 insulation that we'd recently added, we could see dust markings on the underside of the batting that corresponded directly to the electrical/lighting fixture penetrations in the ceiling right below.  Those markings clearly showed that conditioned air was escaping through our light fixtures and up into the attic.  Google "sealing air leaks in your attic,"  the FedGov has several good web sites on this topic, complete with photographs and instructions.  We also beefed up the weather stripping on a couple of casement windows.  All of these changes were the equivalent of closing another door or window.  Finally, because the hardwoods in this house have been sanded/refinished a couple of times, leaving a gap along the quarter round trim on the baseboards, we used caulk that dried clear and caulked that gap around all of the baseboards in the house.  BOOM!  Another door/window closed. 

We also fabricated an insulated insert to put inside the grill of an old school (but still working very well) through the exterior wall NuTone exhaust fan over the range in the kitchen.  I have to remove it if I want to use the fan, and put it back when I'm done using the fan, but the reduction in the draft is noticeable.  It took a while to figure this out, but even after we put the insert behind the fan grill there was still a noticeable draft behind the range in the kitchen.  We pulled the range out and saw that after we'd pulled up all of the layers of old flooring in the kitchen and replaced it with ceramic tile during that kitchen renovation (and we did the tile floor ourselves) we'd totally blown past THAT HUGE GAP IN BETWEEN THE TILE FLOOR AND THE ADJACENT PLASTER WALL.  Since it was a gap in a non-insulated exterior wall, that by itself was the equivalent of leaving a window open.  Husband filled that gap with expanding foam (yes it was that big) and the draft was stopped immediately. 

I'm betting you have some sizeable gaps around the plumbing coming in for your sinks and toilets- we did.  Spray foam.  You can trim it and paint it to match.

All of these things made a HUGE difference in our 1950's era house.  The pellet stove has carried this house comfortably with very little assistance from the gas furnace, except occasionally on the very coldest nights, in the wee hours right before dawn.

(I'm in this part of the forum because even though we heat this house with a pellet stove, we are in the process of having a wood stove installed into the home in which we hope to retire in a few years.)


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