# Code violation - depends upon where you live?



## Don2222 (Mar 31, 2011)

Hello

Some states allow it and some do not!

*The question here is should someone be able to purchase and use this LP vent free stove or not?*

What about the propane heating tops for propane tanks?


http://www.aquasupercenter.com/prod...are&siteID=q5QZHUbCIj8-T3KoCJcSUxGhCC9ZnooP3A

Â»Â» Description:

ProCom Compact Vent Free 25,000 BTU Free Standing Gas Stove With T-Stat Remote - Classic Black

ProCom Compact Vent Free 25,000 BTU Free Standing Gas Stove With T-Stat Remote - Classic Black has metal housing with the look of cast iron with beautiful hand painted logs. It is thermostat controlled and no hassling with cutting wood or hauling ashes. Compact, space-saving design fits almost anywhere and no electricity required to light or operates. Capture the beauty and essence of a stove with the ease and efficiency of vent-free gas technology.

Â»Â» Application:

    *

      Indoor 

Â»Â» Features:

    * Compact Vent Free 25,000 BTU Free Standing Gas Stove - Classic Black
    * With T-Stat remote
    * Dual fuel technology
    * Beautiful hand painted logs
    * Metal housing
    * Thermostat controlled
    * No hassling with cutting wood or hauling ashes
    * No electricity required
    * Space-saving design

Â»Â» Product Notes / Warranty / Manufactures Website:

3 Year Limited Warranty


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## Fsappo (Mar 31, 2011)

In New York, yup.  Depends on your local codes.  Why are you asking?


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## Don2222 (Mar 31, 2011)

Franks said:
			
		

> In New York, yup.  Depends on your local codes.  Why are you asking?



Thanks for asking. 

  My point is that we can not judge on this forum in a general sense what may be right or wrong for any one particular installation for a particular locale.

What works well in one case maybe totally wrong for another case in another location.


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## webbie (Apr 1, 2011)

Vent free are legal in most of the country - there were quite a few hold-outs, but the gas (vent free) lobby spent a LOT of time and money overturning those!

I think they are still illegal in Canada...??


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## Fsappo (Apr 1, 2011)

Don2222 said:
			
		

> Franks said:
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So you were just trying to make a point?  The weather that lousy where you are?


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## Wood Heat Stoves (Apr 3, 2011)

Vent free is illegal in California. There is code and there is your own common sense and comfort level. Even if they were legal here, I would feel more comfortable with a direct vent unit where I knew if there was any possibility of unburned gases they would be venting outside the house, as well as not using up oxygen in the room. I used to have a Rinnai unvented heater and had to trust an oxygen sensor to shut it down.  Also, why are they illegal in some locations and not others? The air you breath is the same.


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## Garjan111 (Apr 3, 2011)

Go to  chimneysweeponline.com then go to libraries, then unvented. I'll see you in about 48 hours. Lots of good reading.

Gary


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## Wood Heat Stoves (Apr 3, 2011)

Wow! Drilled down to http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/library.htm and found this title, Vent Free Gas Fireplaces and Why We Don't Sell Them. More good reasons than I had ever realized for not going ventfree. But my instincts already told me that.


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## ashthree (May 7, 2011)

Vent free has been illegal in Australia for quite some time now.


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## CSCPeter (Jul 8, 2011)

It is legal in NY but you have to open the window, makes a lot of sense!


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## Frozen Canuck (Jul 8, 2011)

Have to agree with some of the posts. 

Why on earth would anyone set up any appliance in your home to kill your family in their sleep just because "code" allows you to do so?

Keep in mind "code" is a set of absolute minimums, ie; you can do no worse/less than this.

Seldom if ever do I recommend that anyone just do minimum code, for a small percentage more one can do far better than just the minimum.

Why take chances? Especially as in this post with people's lives! 

Unless of course one is trying to prove Forrest Gumps mother right...you know "stupid is, as stupid does!"


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## North of 60 (Jul 11, 2011)

Don2222 said:
			
		

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We are all humans using the same things that our bodies require to exist no-matter where we live or what code dictates. Code is minimum! Some areas have a larger quota for human ignorance in accepting a person to place their lips on the tailpipe of a running car and being required to breath normal.
My 2 cents.


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## dave11 (Jul 11, 2011)

The uninformed/distorted opinions about unvented appliances on this site never stop amazing me. The only reason any of these appliances are illegal anywhere is because those making the rules don't understand the issue any better than some do here. 

If you bother to learn about them, you'll see that they are very good at burning gas at 99.99% efficiency, meaning there is essentially zero carbon monoxide being made. I have a very accurate carbon monoxide detector that reads zero when held next to my ventless heater. So assuming good working order, there is zero danger. 


And what if it malfunctions? That's the reason there are requirements for make-up air and spacing/sizing regulations for each installation. As well as a recommendation for a room carbon monoxide detector, which everyone with any sort of gas appliance should have anyway. 

And there's a low oxygen sensor on every unit, to boot.

Still nervous? Let me ask you: What about all the people who cook with gas stoves and gas cook tops? Those are less efficient and definitely put carbon monoxide into the room. Why aren't you lobbying for gas stove and cook tops to be banned? The average family is cooking a couple hours total per day, after all. 

A properly sized and installed ventless heater is perfectly safe. The only real concern is moisture accumulation, which is not a true safety issue.


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## CSCPeter (Jul 11, 2011)

http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hoconsrp.htm

http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hovfco2.htm

Interesting reading about vent-free and how it is not good for you


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## North of 60 (Jul 11, 2011)

dave11 said:
			
		

> The uninformed/distorted opinions about unvented appliances on this site never stop amazing me.
> 
> If you bother to learn about them, you'll see that they are very good at burning gas at 99.99% efficiency, meaning there is essentially zero carbon monoxide being made. I have a very accurate carbon monoxide detector that reads zero when held next to my ventless heater. So assuming good working order, there is zero danger.



If you bother to learn that your efficiency #s only represents that you have 0 flue temp loss as its all dumped back in the room. Nothing related to emissions.
 ESSENTIALLY ZERO CO  HAAAA HAAAAA give me a break.  Your gas stoves comment isnt even worth a reply if someone is that narrow minded..  I will give you a hint........ think of possible scenarios............. Have a good sleep.


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## Danno77 (Jul 11, 2011)

I still haven't figured out why an unvented decorative or infrequently used fireplace/stove is a bad idea. I'd have no problem smacking the OP's stove in my house for the occasional warm fire before bed. Why are people so bipolar with things? Some say absolutely not, some say absolutely yes, I say, I wouldn't run one full time as a primary source, but short term burns and used in the right circumstances, could be a useful and safe appliance.

I also agree that if I'm cooking on my gas stove/oven for thanksgiving I'm putting out more that the 25k stove listed above. Nobody freaks out about that!


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## Frozen Canuck (Jul 13, 2011)

Seriously? You have not figured out why having the toxic byproducts of combustion present in a home for the occupants to inhale is a bad idea! Really?

BTW the gas stove you refer to is required to be vented to the outside....ever wonder why?

Yes I know, I know there are plenty of people (idiots) who DIY it & dont install proper venting. When they get lucky (not a skill & not by design or planning) & dont kill their family, they then jump on the computer & tell the world it is safe to do as they have done because they are sure no one will die. They will even proudly state that no one in their family has died (yet).

Remember what Forrest's mom said about people like that.


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## Danno77 (Jul 13, 2011)

Frozen Canuck said:
			
		

> Seriously? You have not figured out why having the toxic byproducts of combustion present in a home for the occupants to inhale is a bad idea! Really?
> 
> BTW the gas stove you refer to is required to be vented to the outside....ever wonder why?
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My gas oven is required to be vented to the outside? Bullshit.


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## Frozen Canuck (Jul 13, 2011)

It is here for sure, called a "range hood" that is required to be vented to the outside.

Even if code is foolish enough (way behind the times) to allow someone to install a gas (fossil) burning appliance without a vent where you live, why on earth would anyone want to do so?

The only possible excuse would be to save a few bucks. That's an awful reason to put the occupants of a home at risk. Why would anyone do that? Makes no sense. Hence the reference to Forrest's mom.

Unless of course I am the one who is out of touch & their is some (unknown to me) benefit to inhaling the exhaust of a combustion process.


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## North of 60 (Jul 14, 2011)

Frozen Canuck said:
			
		

> It is here for sure, called a "range hood" that is required to be vented to the outside.
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> Even if code is foolish enough (way behind the times) to allow someone to install a gas (fossil) burning appliance without a vent where you live, why on earth would anyone want to do so?
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Well put/said.


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## Danno77 (Jul 14, 2011)

No, I guess you have changed my mind. There is no acceptable level for any pollutants in the air I breath.


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## Frozen Canuck (Jul 14, 2011)

Thanks North. 
Sorry if I sounded a little hot under the collar, it's just that alot of the the stuff in the DIYish forums makes me cringe. 
After 30+ years in the trades I sometimes hope (foolishly) that people get it & just build it/do it right the first time.

Seriously folks...every course I & any other trades person takes is available through the faculty of extension at your local technical institute....for me that's SAIT (Southern Alberta Institute of Technology) & NAIT (Northern.....).
I am not saying nor do I expect you to take them all. 
However when you consider the cost of fixing some of the serious errors I see in structures of all types every day....well the $500.00 cost of a course that applies to what you want to do, be it air & vapor barrier, structural framing, electrical, plumbing or whatever you are interested in trying at home, is very very cheap. 
Likely about 1% or so of what it will cost to have a pro come in & fix the mistakes you made because you simply did not know. 
Hard to find a better bargain than education.


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## heaterman (Jul 14, 2011)

Simply put. Unvented appliances of any type, [heating or cooking] are allowed to be sold and used in the USA for one reason and one reason alone. 

Money.

Who padded whose pocket. What builders association twisted the arm of what politician. What manufacturer produced "documentation" that their product was safe.

Frankly speaking, there is no good reason to install an unvented appliance of any type anywhere. CO is only the most noticeable gas emitted by the combustion process. There are many other byproducts of combustion that are very bad for you. It's just that CO kills you rather quickly which is generally deemed to be a bad thing so it's regulated and supposedly dealt with. Other things that kill you more slowly and in a less dramatic fashion are acceptable. 
And yes, any home with a gas fired cooking stove should have a hood vented to the outside of the structure. Why are there range hoods that are unvented? See the comment above regarding Home Builders Associations.............just sayin.

One other small detail and it should stick in everyone's head..........*always remember that "code" is the MINIMUM standard to which anything can be built or designed.*


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## Garjan111 (Jul 14, 2011)

Yeah I always get, they must be safe because they are allowed to sell them! Well hello, you can buy cigarettes and alcohol too and are they good for you?

I quit selling them about 6 years ago and it was the best thing I did. No more calls about smells and wanting me to check them out.

Also I believe they don't test them with logs and that's another problem. The fiber logs as they deteriorate, the fibers get airborne and guess what? You breath them. When your logs break or start to deteriorate your to dampen them with water and put into a plastic bag and seal tight so no more fibers are in the air.

The same people that say they are safe are the ones that drink only bottled water  

Gary


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## Danno77 (Jul 14, 2011)

Garjan111 said:
			
		

> Yeah I always get, they must be safe because they are allowed to sell them! Well hello, you can buy cigarettes and alcohol too and are they good for you?
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> I quit selling them about 6 years ago and it was the best thing I did. No more calls about smells and wanting me to check them out.
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Do people say they are safe, or safe enough? I just feel that the people who are whining about the health risks are likely hypocrites that do about 1000 other poor things to their bodies. Eat poorly, smoke cigarettes, live in metropolitan areas so polluted that you can't see half a mile away... You get the idea...

If you are a health nut and you minimize ALL risks in your life, then go ahead and rant about what a bad idea it is, even in moderation, used infrequently and in a 150 year old drafty house.


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## Frozen Canuck (Jul 15, 2011)

Danno77 said:
			
		

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So ... are you saying that only healthy people who refuse to take risks with their health have the right to breathe clean air or complain about polluted/toxic air?

Would that apply to your family? After all your making that decision for them if you install an unvented appliance in your home. Would you ask them how they felt about it? Explain the potential risks? Ask them if they as a family would like to persue a healthier/safer way to install said appliance? Just wondering how this ends up when it is your family & their lives on the line, or would you justify the risk & not say a word knowing/believing that you are saving a few bucks & that makes the risk worth it?

BTW if you are living in a 150 year old drafty house, I suggest you invest in air/vapor barrier as well as insulation. You may find the need/desire to take a risk with so much on the line vanishes when you can keep the cold out, as opposed to using the cold & drafts as an excuse to bring the exhausts in to the space where your family lives.


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## Danno77 (Jul 15, 2011)

Frozen Canuck said:
			
		

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Triple wythe brick structure with plaster and no balloon framing does not allow for the methods you think are appropriate in order to seal up a house to the point that it becomes unhealthy. Besides, I do not need an unvented appliance for heat, I want it for ambiance, which, in my opinion, is a realistic use of one.

Do you explain to your kids that by eating mcdonalds they will become fat, do you explain to them the I'll effects that caffeine has on your body? Where's this line at?


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## Garjan111 (Jul 15, 2011)

Danno............I think unvented gas logs are perfect for you. Have a nice life!

Gary


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## pyrotom (Jul 27, 2011)

I probably shouldn't bother adding the the proverbial fire here, since this issue is clearly a hot debate, puns intended.

However, I apparently can't resist 

Perfect hydrocarbon combustion produces CO2, O2 and H2O, which are all harmless. I inhale all of those things every day, whether I'm using an unvented heater or not.

 Is the argument here whether or not a properly working gas appliance can achieve near-perfect combustion? Or is this like a helmet law discussion, where we are debating what is legal vs. what is smart?

We don't recommend installing unvented gas products, but they aren't the anti-Christ, either.


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## Danno77 (Jul 27, 2011)

Nope, Tom. That's not how it works. They are either 100% bad for 100% of applications  or 100% good for 100% of applications. There is no middle ground.


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## Frozen Canuck (Jul 31, 2011)

Danno77 said:
			
		

> Nope, Tom. That's not how it works. They are either 100% bad for 100% of applications  or 100% good for 100% of applications. There is no middle ground.



Would you kindly point out where anyone in this thread said they are 100% good for 100% of applications. I think you are left with the first part of that sentence only.


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## Danno77 (Jul 31, 2011)

Frozen Canuck said:
			
		

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Nope, you are right. My point was, rather, that the people who were against them feel that a person who sees any value in them must believe that latter part. They can't understand that there is a middle ground.


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## Frozen Canuck (Jul 31, 2011)

Here code allows for no middle ground. Combustion appliances must be vented to the exterior of the structure period. 
Honestly I have never seen or heard of it being otherwise here, so code has said "vent it" for a very long time. 
However when I travel south of 49 I do see air conditioners in the attics of homes of all places. Now there is another one that makes absolutely no sense at all. 
Seriously code needs some serious work south of 49, as from all appearances code there is at a minimum 30 - 50 years behind the times. 
I have some serious concerns about code here but we have nothing even close to the mixed up mess of do whatever you want that exists south of 49. Not even close, difference between night & day etc. 
In other words if I had your code I would be thrilled to get the code that exists here now. It would be a huge improvement in the quality of work done. 
Time to give the lobbyists the boot & do what is right. 
Before you all gas yourselves because someone paid good money for the code to say that you can.


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## Planethill (Feb 3, 2012)

Wow, what a debate!

I installed that very stove in the OP's post about two years ago.  We are very happy with it...*BUT* we also don't use it for primary heat (I have a wood stove and oil boiler for that), never have it running unattended or while asleep and have a CO detector in the room (and elsewhere throughout the house).  

Essentially it's in a back room of the house that is always cold.  It's the farthest point from the wood burner and the last room on the boiler-loop, so it's always chilly.  It only gets fired up when my wife wants to read in the evening away from the noise of the kids/TV which is about once a week in the winter.  

I totally get the risks and think one would be nuts to use it 24/7 or as a primary source of heat, especially since propane is expensive where I live ($5.15 a gallon on my last fill).  However for my use case, used occasionally to heat a room for a few hours a week in a room that doesn't even have doors, in a 150 year old "loose" farm house, I have no concerns.  YMMV.


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## eclecticcottage (Feb 3, 2012)

Ok...this one has been done to death IMO, BUT...

If you have a wood stove, do you have an OAK?  No?  You do know it's pulling oxygen out of your home, right?  What about a pellet stove?  Same thing...

Have you ever burned a candle?  An oil lamp?  Do you know what kind of "stuff" those put into your air?

Anyway.  A VF isn't meant to be, nor should it be, a primary heat source.  We used one as such for 2 years and never had moisture condensation on the windows or soot build up anywhere either.  We did replace it with the Hampton Bay in my sig, it was a temp fix for a really scary old gravity heater when we couldn't afford a Dv stove (the Old House never had central heat, so it wasn't as simple as replacing a furnace-there wasn't one).  And we use a LOT more NG now too.

Now we have a VF in the Cottage as backup to the Lopi just in case we get caught away from the Cottage in a cold snap and can't get home to restoke the stove (since we have NO other heat source).  If it was a long enough period of time, we would be in danger of having our pipes freeze and cause serious damage to the house.  I can't remember the last time it was on.  We have a CO detector in that room, and an air purifier too (more for dog dander, but it's there either way).  We are also not air tight, you can feel the air come in around the door frame, so it's a bit like a window open a crack.  I'd eventually like to replace it with a Thelin Gnome DV or the Berkshire from the Old house, when we have the $$ (and I can convince DH, who likes the VF).

I wouldn't recommend or vilify a VF, I think they have their place, and it really depends on each situation.


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## stoveguy2esw (Feb 3, 2012)

not wishing to take sides but can i ask a question?

why is it that VF gas stoves get lambasted all the time but nobody ever seems to vilify kerosine heaters which have a far worse record for safety?


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## eclecticcottage (Feb 3, 2012)

Maybe because (unless I'm thinking of the wrong ones), those aren't hard plumbed in?  Or because people bring up the VF's and not those 

We had a kerosene torpedo heater for our garage and we ended up selling it because I couldn't breathe in there when it was on.  Bought one run on propane and it's fine for me, we have used both on separate occasions under the Old House to defrost frozen pipes (it's on pillars, so we just set it right at the crawl space entrance outside and let it heat up underneath, usually a few hours later the pipes have defrosted-the kerosene one stunk up the house though, but it was better than crawling under there with a hair dryer).


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## sticks (Feb 5, 2012)

I with the kerosene heater question I alsowould rather see someone put in a properly sized vent free appliance than a vented gas log in a fireplace poor draft. I here it all the time "my fireplace smokes so I will just put in a gas log". Some how the fireplace magically knows it is burning gas and will send it up the chimney. I have seen much higher c.o. readings from this than vent free logs.


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## thechimneysweep (Mar 3, 2012)

This is an old post, and has strayed all over the place, but I'd like to address a couple of points made above concerning vent-frees.

*Legality:*  Vent-frees are illegal to install anywhere in Canada, Australia or New Zealand.  In the US, it is illegal to install vent-frees in California and  Montana.  Minnesota prohibits vent-free installation in any home built after 1980.  County-wide bans exist in several states, including Arizona, Colorado, Washington, Kansas, Wyoming, Ohio, Michigan, North Dakota, South Dakota, Nevada, New Mexico, Alaska, Minnesota, Texas and New Hampshire.  Austin, Texas and New York City have issued city-wide bans.  Most States that don't ban vent-frees altogether prohibit their use in bedrooms, or as the sole source of heat in any dwelling.

*Comparison to Gas Ranges:*  This is rapidly turning into a moot point, as most states now require vented exhaust hoods for all new gas range installations.  Nonetheless, there are still lots of old, unvented gas range installations out there, and this argument still comes up, so here are the facts:

It turns out there is a huge difference in daily exhaust exposure to users of unvented gas cooking appliances as compared to users of vent-free gas heaters.  

According to a study by the State of Illinois summarized at http://gasunie.eldoc.ub.rug.nl/root/1999/2041533/?pFullItemRecord=ON A typical household gas range produces the exhaust from an average of 6.4 cubic feet *(6,528 btu's)* of gas per day (this average is computed on an annual usage rate, and includes the peak usage season during the Holidays). 

Vent-free manufacturers typically limit use to a maximum of three hours per day, so a 25,000 btu vent-free operated according to the manufacturer's guidelines introduces the exhaust from *75,000 btu's* of gas into the breathing space every day during the 6-month heating season, for an annual average of *37,500 btu's* per day (nearly 6 times the average daily emissions  created by an unvented gas range).


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## FanMan (Mar 4, 2012)

Hi, I'm new here.  I was going to say I was amazed how passionate people get about this subject, but then I've seen it all before elsewhere online on other subjects... but anyway:  Most of what I've found online seems to indicate that vent free appliances are legal under most state codes (California being one obvious exception).  On most sites I've visited, they're also reported to be legal for bedroom use if the device is under 10,000 BTY/h, and fore bathroom use under 6,000 BTU/h.

On all the websites where people report health problems from using vent free appliances, they're talking about gas fireplaces and [heating] stoves, never about "blue flame" or catalytic heaters.  This makes sense, as to get a yellow flame from natural gas or LP requires the air to be choked down so that it's starving for oxygen and burning inefficiently... no surprise that it's producing excess CO2, CO, and even soot.  Any welder knows that you can coat a piece of metal with black carbon with a big yellow acetylene flame by turning off the oxygen.  I don't think I like the idea of a vent free gas fireplace but perhaps the modern blue flame ones aren't so bad?  Are the newer ones more efficient than older ones?

My thought is to replace my aging kerosene burning forced hot air furnace with a largish direct vent gas fireplace in the living room/kitchen area, and wall mounted (DV or vent free, I'm still thinking about it) heaters in the bedrooms.  It's an older drafty house, I usually sleep with a window cracked open all winter anyway, and I'm figuring louvered vents in the bedroom doors.


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## Highbeam (Mar 5, 2012)

Anybody that justifies a decision by saying that, "they'll leave a window cracked open to survice while they sleep" needs to slow down and rethink it. If the pollution is so bad that you can't live in there without ventilation then you certainly are not making a wise decision. Death from CO is not violent, you just stay asleep.

I'm all for burning stuff. I love the smell of a campfire. When the power is out I have burned oil lamps, I love gas rangetops, etc. These are all interactive uses where you are there with the appliance involved in the operation. A DV space heater can be run all day (and night) automatically pumping pollution into your home over a prolonged period. That's the difference. 

I even like the smell of diesel exhaust. That doesn't mean I'll plumb the exhaust into my home for heat.


Put me in the never install it camp. On principle.


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## Dune (Apr 18, 2012)

Danno77 said:


> Do people say they are safe, or safe enough? I just feel that the people who are whining about the health risks are likely hypocrites that do about 1000 other poor things to their bodies. Eat poorly, smoke cigarettes, live in metropolitan areas so polluted that you can't see half a mile away... You get the idea...
> 
> If you are a health nut and you minimize ALL risks in your life, then go ahead and rant about what a bad idea it is, even in moderation, used infrequently and in a 150 year old drafty house.


 
Wait, you get to decide who can rant about this? Why is that? Is the fact that my cousin died from a malfunctioning gas appliance good enough reason for me to be able to comment?


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## FanMan (Apr 18, 2012)

Highbeam said:


> ...A DV space heater can be run all day (and night) automatically pumping pollution into your home over a prolonged period...


 
Didn't you mean to say, "DV space heater can be run all day (and night)_ *without *_automatically pumping pollution into your home over a prolonged period"?  DV vents outside so it doesn't pollute the house.

In my case, I decided not to go with anything VF... I now have a DV stove in the living room and two DV heaters, not installed yet, for the bedrooms.


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## Wood Heat Stoves (Apr 21, 2012)

They're still illegal here in California. Why they're considered safe in some states and not others I don't know, it's the same air. Indoor air pollution can be a problem with many things contributing to it so why take a chance on adding one more thing? Another by-product of vent-free is moisture which, in a humid climate, can also be a problem.


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