# Total creosote clog and CHIMNEY FIRE: THREE WEEKS after brand-new install?!



## Toba Guy (Feb 5, 2015)

Ok, so here is the story.

Just got my first ever woodstove installed, Quadra-fire Isle Royale, with top-loading door.

It was installed professionally (though I'm really beginning to question if he deserves that title). 

Stove is located in the basement, no outdoor air kit, drawing from inside the house. Flue damper also installed. 

Pipe goes up through the main-floor, into our bedroom where it takes two elbows (approx 45 degrees each), to hit the roof at the proper angle to pass between the joists etc. 

For 3 weeks burned more or less continuously. About half scrap 2x4s, and half seasoned pine. 

Kept the damper at minimum, and played with the flue damper to a point where the flames were blue and dancing.

Did not allow it to smoulder to restart from the embers, but used paper and bark/kindling each time to restart. Then added scraps, then the pine. 

After 3 weeks of pure wood-burning pleasure, without any issues or concerns, there was a strong smell of burning-plastic in the main-floor bedroom. Then shortly after a strong smell of woodsmoke. Then the 2" insulated pipe was too hot to leave my hand on. THEN there was a dramatic decrease in draw in the stove. Carbon monoxide detector went off, reading of 89 PPM in the bedroom. 

Contacted the installer, and we tried to light it again (a few days later). No-go. No draw at all. Took the flue damper off and put a straight pipe in instead. No-go, still no draw. Went up on the roof, and the cap itself was totally, completely plugged with creosote. Taking the cap off allowed us to get a fire going, but the draw was still terrible. No smoke or carbon monoxide exited into the bedroom during this fire. 

Installer says it is an issue of negative pressure in the basement (our furnace also draws straight from inside the house). Says this has slowed down the ascent of the smoke, to the point that it is cooling and condensing on the pipe. 

During the 3 weeks of burning, draw was never a problem. Never had smoke pouring out of the stove, trouble lighting etc. 

Installer also says a major factor is the humidity in our house (+/- 45%, down to 35% after running the stove). 

And the "punky" wood we have. I'm familiar with this term, and to my mind our wood is absolutely not punky. My brother has been burning from the same batch since September and has had no complaints. It is totally dry, well-seasoned for at least a year*. *The installer does not contest any _moisture_ issue with the wood, but he says it has "lost all of its energy" and that some of it was cut from dead trees: "never ,ever burn deadfall".) I think he may be trying to shift the blame onto us to cover his butt. 

I don't doubt that the negative pressure is part of the problem here, but my real question is: to your mind, does this explain how we somehow managed to completely clog our chimney with creosote in a matter of* 3 weeks?! *

Seems to me something in this system was grossly miscalculated. When originally purchasing the stove, sales rep said we would essentially never have to clean the chimney, because the stove burnt so clean. Install guy had said we should have it done once per year. I work from home and was at that fire every 1.5 hours having a great time with my new stove, tweaking and tuning the flue damper, keeping the flames blue and rolling: was this the issue? 

Even the flue damper was covered in creosote. How is this possible in THREE WEEKS?!

Thoughts? Insight?

Will provide further details if helpful.


Thanks.


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## Blackjack Dan (Feb 5, 2015)

Wow be safe & be careful and get a second opinion on the install.

Don't know much about that stove it's one I'm looking at purchasing for my own use. What I have read though A flue damper is a big question mark?.  You should get the temp up in the stove and then close the internal damper some call it a bypass after the stove reaches the correct temperature. If this unit has one control for both air regulation and bypass then it's imperative to get the stove to the correct operating temperature while making sure the flue damper is wide open and probably should not be used.


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## TheRambler (Feb 5, 2015)

Do you have a flue probe/ temp thermometer? Stove top therm? Have you actually checked the wood with a moisture meter?(need to check a fresh split face)

I am leaning towards you are keeping the flue temps way too cool as the root of the problem.  Your flue damper is probably not needed, and since it too was covered in creosote it points more towards too cool flue temps.Though there could certainly be other issues as well.

Before you even attempt to use the stove again i would thoroughly clean the flue.


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## gzecc (Feb 5, 2015)

My vote is bad fuel. Fuel is the single most important part of the equation, unless you have some funky designed chimney.


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## firefighterjake (Feb 5, 2015)

Sad to say . . . but usually creosote is due to the fuel . . . or not running the stove and flue hot enough.

Do you happen to have a stove or flue thermometer with readings?


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## webby3650 (Feb 5, 2015)

That pine isn't as dry as you think! It's also highly unlikely you ever needed that flue damper, it's not needed on new stoves unless the flue is very tall.
Negative pressure didn't cause this issue, if that was the issue you would have been experiencing sluggish starts and smoking prior to this event.

I can't believe the cap wasn't the first place the installer looked! Has the chimney been cleaned and inspected since this happened? If the cap is that bad, the rest of the flue is likely not much better.


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## maple1 (Feb 5, 2015)

My guess is the pine isn't dry enough, and your draft isn't as good as you think - likely the damper hurt too.

Was the draft actually measured? No temp data either, anywhere - both should be monitored especially in a new install. If everything is drawing inside air, that's another thing that can pull your chimney draft down. You'll be grasping at straws until you get back to starting with a completely clean chimney, and measured/monitored draft. Dry wood + proper draft should not build creosote.


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## TheRambler (Feb 5, 2015)

Its definitely one or the other or a combination. Fuel, flue temps, or both. If your pine has been cut split and stacked for a year as you say then it should be good to go. Pine is one of those woods that seasons relatively quickly. Should be verified with a moisture meter to rule it out though.


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## Jags (Feb 5, 2015)

You are running way too cool and fuel could be an issue as well.  I see no mention of thermometers or temps.  You state that the damper was used as well as the primary was kept at a minimum.  I don't like to jump to conclusion this fast, but currently this is pointing to operator error.  Please don't take offense to that.  You are not the first (or last).

Obviously step one is to sweep and inspect your flue before you do anything else.

Second - get two thermometers.  One for the stove top and a second probe type for the stack.

Can I take a guess that you were seeing smoke from the pipe almost 100% of the time except for the coaling stage?
Glass all smoked up?


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## claydogg84 (Feb 5, 2015)

Why was the flue damper even installed? You should have only the air control to adjust on the stove.


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## Plow Boy (Feb 5, 2015)

You said "seasoned" pine.  I just wondering with this being a new install, how long have you prepared for the stove by seasoning wood.  Or did u get the pine from someone who said it was "seasoned".  My guess is the pine is green, that coupled with an unnecessary damper in the stove pipe caused a serious problem (to say the least).  Pine has a bad rep. around here because if you burn it to green your going to have trouble eventually.  Burning hardwoods green is bad, but pine is way worse; and can lead to a big pile of ashes where your house use to be.


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## Laurent Cyr (Feb 5, 2015)

All comments here were valid.  Flue temp and stove temp is too low.  Your damper is probably not needed.  Your pipes will need a good cleaning before you start over.  The first year I bought my stove, the creosote layer was heavier than it is now.  I found the raging fire in the stove intimidating, so I kept the temps down way too low.  With the years, I've learned.


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## begreen (Feb 5, 2015)

Most likely the wood and possibly the way the stove is being run. We need to know some temperatures to discuss how the stove is run. Is there a thermometer on the stove top or stove flue? The negative pressure claim sounds a bit fishy, but we need more data on how the stove is being run first. Most likely it's being run too cool.

Just as a check, can you describe the flue system in a bit more detail? Is there single-wall or double-wall connector pipe to the basement ceiling? How tall? From the basement ceiling through the roof there should be chimney pipe (stainless steel, shiny, probably 8" diam.). Is this the way it is? The 45s should be 30 degree angle elbows and made of the same chimney pipe. Is this correct?

PS: Welcome to Hearth.com. You have a good stove. With good fuel and proper running it should provide a lot of warm satisfaction.


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## saskwoodburner (Feb 5, 2015)

This being my first season running a epa style wood stove, my thoughts are to blame the wood and technique as well (with no offense intended). Once you have a way to measure your temps, you'll know how far you can go, and once you figure out how to burn correctly, you'll get there.

 As for punky wood, it can be dry, and still be punky. It's what my son calls movie prop wood, that round that should weigh 10 lbs being like 3 lbs as an example.


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## maple1 (Feb 5, 2015)

Also on the wood, windfalls can be bad, or they can be good. I have burned a crapload of windfall spruce the past 3 years, as I needed dry wood in a hurry. If you get it before it starts to turn punky, and split & stack it in a dry open space, it can 'finish' in a couple months. If it starts to go punky, it can actually soak up water rather than dry out. So punky can be either dry as a bone with next to no heat energy & likely make no creasote, or it can be wet & make a bunch of creosote (still with little heat engergy). Stuff I cut was up off the ground resting on the branches, if the windfall was laying right on the ground that's not usually good either - you have to catch it pretty quick before it goes backwards.

Also think I have to throw a flag on the part about the humidity - that should have no impact on making creosote. Although if you have a poor draft to start with, it might compound it a little bit, I suppose, and make it more sluggish.


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## DougA (Feb 5, 2015)

Toba Guy said:


> And the "punky" wood we have. I'm familiar with this term, and to my mind our wood is absolutely not punky. My brother has been burning from the same batch since September and has had no complaints. It is totally dry, wellseasoned for at least a year. The installer does not contest any moisture issue with the wood, but he says it has "lost all of its energy" and that some of it was cut from dead trees: "never ,ever burn deadfall".) I think he may be trying to shift the blame onto us to cover his butt.


If the pine is deadfall and covered for a year, it should be dry and not cause you any problems. To be fair, your brother may be burning the same wood on a different stove and have no problems because his stove is a different design.  One year of proper seasoning with pine and it should be fine. Punky wood "has lost it's energy" yes, I agree that it has lost probably 50%. But if it is dry and free, many of us use it anyway and it will not cause creosote problems. More likely punky wood (when dry) burns too fast and can cause short, hot fires. That can be good if you are wanting to heat the house up quickly but you need to make sure that you are indeed not choking back the stove unless it is overheating.

Like others suggest, buy a brush & clean the chimney, get 2 thermometers (one for top and one flue probe) and a moisture meter to check your wood. All of those will be under a hundred bucks, even in Canada. THEN, you have the information needed for us to help you better.

I honestly can't imagine anything an installer could do (other than put in a damper, which is not necessary) that could cause the problem.  Like others, I suspect the wood is not as dry as you thought and you are running the stove too cool. Glad you posted and we're here to help you enjoy your investment.


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## branchburner (Feb 5, 2015)

TheRambler said:


> If your pine has been cut split and stacked for a year as you say then it should be good to go. Pine is one of those woods that seasons relatively quickly.



Also a wood that reabsorbs moisture pretty readily, so as DougA mentioned: cut, split and stacked for a year and THEN COVERED (or moved into a shed/barn) well before the coming burn season, to prevent reabsorbing moisture.

Toba Guy, when you kept the damper at minimum, and played with the flue damper to a point where the flames were blue and dancing, you were unknowingly creating creosote by keeping the fire too cool to allow a good secondary combustion (= burning smoke). This is how we ran our airtight VC back in the late 70s, resulting in quick, heavy buildup and a severe chimney fire.

EPA stoves are made to run fairly hard and hot, with lots of draft and lots of air supply, to get the high temps needed to re-burn the smoke/particulate. (Cat stoves being a bit different, as the cat allows smoke to burn at cooler temps.) Once your flue is cleaned, and you get a thermometer to measure flue temps, you should reverse your technique to get hotter burns rather than cooler, slower ones. 

Unfortunately, burning 50% dry 2x4s is not conducive to good burning in an EPA stove: you will either overfire the stove or produce too much off-gassing too quickly to be get proper secondary combustion. The % of small scrap to be burned will probably  need to be much lower for optimal burning.


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## Lumber-Jack (Feb 5, 2015)

I've heard all that pitch in pine will plug up your chimney and causes chimney fires out East. You may have to move out West here if you want to continue burning pine, no such rumor exist out here.


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## TheRambler (Feb 5, 2015)

branchburner said:


> Also a wood that reabsorbs moisture pretty readily, so as DougA mentioned: cut, split and stacked for a year and THEN COVERED (or moved into a shed/barn) well before the coming burn season, to prevent reabsorbing moisture.
> 
> Toba Guy, when you kept the damper at minimum, and played with the flue damper to a point where the flames were blue and dancing, you were unknowingly creating creosote by keeping the fire too cool to allow a good secondary combustion (= burning smoke). This is how we ran our airtight VC back in the late 70s, resulting in quick, heavy buildup and a severe chimney fire.
> 
> ...


 
Last part of my previous post was to verify the wood with a moisture meter to rule it out. If your wood is covered or not it doesnt make a ton of difference in the grand scheme of things. If its cut, split, and stacked off the ground in a spot that gets good wind and sun then it will season just fine. Wood does or rather can reabsorb moisture, but its negligible if its cut, split, and stacked in a location that in conducive to seasoning firewood. I challenge you to try an experiment. Take a piece of seasoned pine for example, split it and check the moisture content. Then take 1 of those pieces and put it in a 5 gallon bucket of water. Leave it there for a few days to a week and then come back and split that piece again and check it again. Split the one that wasnt in the bucket too and compare. I already know what you will see. Sure the outside few layers of wood will be wetter/can reabsorb moisture, but the main portion of any given piece of wood wont reabsorb any meaningful amount of water unless its left there for a really long period of time. It certainly can't hurt to cover your wood, and i certainly do. But it doesnt make that big of a difference. And any wood that does reabsorb moisture, wont absorb nearly enough to take it from "seasoned" to marginal again after its already seasoned to a point that is considered ready to burn. At least not in the majority of locations that people are storing firewood anyway, maybe it would be a different story if you live in a rain forest or the tropics.

Burning scrap wood isnt an issue either. Yes if you load your stove completely full with it you can run into an overfire situation potentially, but mixing it with cord wood is a perfectly fine practice, and is done frequently by many people. Its no different than burning pallets, or burning biobricks etc. Split a 2x4 and check the moisture, most of them arnt super dry, but are certainly in the ideal range. I checked a few out of curiosity a couple weeks back and they ranged from 15-20%


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## DougA (Feb 5, 2015)

TheRambler said:


> I challenge you to try an experiment.


I agree 100% EXCEPT if the wood is punky.  Punky wood absorbs moisture very quickly and I find it dries slowly because it's wet inside.  I have not done this experiment on punky wood and I will leave that to you.  If you find the same results, I will bow in your honor and beg forgiveness.  

I suspect the wood is not as dry as the OP thinks and that factor, plus the learning curve we all experience on a new stove is the what's gone wrong.  Even then, gee, that's a really short time to get clogged up!

This thread is a good one though.


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## bholler (Feb 5, 2015)

i find it amusing that the op hasn't responded yet and you guys keep theorizing i am curious to see what they have to say


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## TheRambler (Feb 5, 2015)

DougA said:


> I agree 100% EXCEPT if the wood is punky.  Punky wood absorbs moisture very quickly and I find it dries slowly because it's wet inside.  I have not done this experiment on punky wood and I will leave that to you.  If you find the same results, I will bow in your honor and beg forgiveness.
> 
> I suspect the wood is not as dry as the OP thinks and that factor, plus the learning curve we all experience on a new stove is the what's gone wrong.  Even then, gee, that's a really short time to get clogged up!
> 
> This thread is a good one though.


 
 Agreed, punky wood is a different animal. Though i would think the average joe would know if the wood is punky. And i am just giving the OP the benefit of the doubt when we says that he knows what punky is, and is wood is not that.


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## MattFoley772 (Feb 5, 2015)

In my Isle Royale I burned mostly pallets and lumber which are pine for whole winter and had almost zero creosote in prefab chimney after winter. So I will bet you are burning wet wood and/or not burning hot enough after loading. Does the wood pop and hiss? Does it give off a lot of smoke? Does it ignite quickly or take a while? Are flames bright yellow or blue, or a darker orange? Do you always load it up and restrict the air or do you burn smaller hot fires regularly?


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## DougA (Feb 5, 2015)

TheRambler said:


> Agreed, punky wood is a different animal. Though i would think the average joe would know if the wood is punky. And i am just giving the OP the benefit of the doubt when we says that he knows what punky is, and is wood is not that.


Point taken.  That's not a bow though, only a nod.


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## firefighterjake (Feb 5, 2015)

bholler said:


> i find it amusing that the op hasn't responded yet and you guys keep theorizing i am curious to see what they have to say



I think we might have scared him.


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## branchburner (Feb 5, 2015)

DougA said:


> Punky wood absorbs moisture very quickly and I find it dries slowly because it's wet inside.



Right, and if you happen to be burning pine that was standing dead, or slab cuts, you quickly discover punkiness is a matter of degree: certainly pine that is cut green and burned the next year will not be at all punky, but pine that is a few years dead is definitely prone to reabsorb moisture even though it doesn't seem to appear that punky.

I don't need to perform any experiments with a moisture meter because I have performed them with my stove. Older mill slabs and standing dead eastern white pine burn great if covered after being split, but sometimes not so great if not covered.


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## branchburner (Feb 5, 2015)

TheRambler said:


> Burning scrap wood isnt an issue either.... mixing it with cord wood is a perfectly fine practice, and is done frequently by many people. Its no different than burning pallets



Right, and can give the same bad results as burning pallets IF done as the OP has done, by closing down the flue damper and air supply to keep them from burning too fast.

I agree, mixing with cord wood is perfectly fine, and is done frequently by me, too, but not 50%. Of course it depend on the stove and the operator, but my experience has been that I had to shut the air back too far, too fast, to keep the fire from running away. Although I don't think wood can be too dry, it can be too small... the excessive surface area meant excessive outgassing at times. My afterburner got overwhelmed, and I ended up with some dirty, smoky burns and even some backpuffing.


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## ailanthus (Feb 6, 2015)

Lumber-Jack said:


> I've heard all that pitch in pine will plug up your chimney and causes chimney fires out East. You may have to move out West here if you want to continue burning pine, no such rumor exist out here.


LOL, it's because of the eastern humidity


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## Oldman47 (Feb 6, 2015)

ailanthus said:


> LOL, it's because of the eastern humidity


You have got to be kidding. Lumber-Jack lives in the Pacific North Wet. They burn soft woods because that is what grows there.


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## ailanthus (Feb 6, 2015)

Oldman47 said:


> You have got to be kidding. Lumber-Jack lives in the Pacific North Wet. They burn soft woods because that is what grows there.


Yes, I was kidding, thus the 'LOL' and the winky face.  Also, I was jesting about the suggestion the original poster's installer made about indoor humidity causing his chimney to plug up in 3 weeks.


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## Stubborn Dutchman (Feb 6, 2015)

firefighterjake said:


> I think we might have scared him.



Maybe just out frantically looking for some decent wood to burn!


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## Jags (Feb 6, 2015)

firefighterjake said:


> I think we might have scared him.



Nope - not yet at least.  He/she hasn't been back since the original posting.
And I really hope the OP doesn't get scared away.  Lots of people here willing to help get this wonderful stove operating as it should be.


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## Toba Guy (Feb 9, 2015)

Ok. First off, thank you all for your input, it has been very helpful and appreciated. I am very happy I found these forums.

So, it has been a busy week at work and I've had little time to reply, so thank you for waiting for this, here's what I've got:

- Yes, I had a stove-top thermometer, and it was generally in the "burn zone" indicated (125-325 Celsius, or 275-575 F for my American friends). Though I will admit that my primary focus during those 3 weeks was on keeping the flames blue. Sales rep had told me that was what I was shooting for, that so long as the flames were blue, then gases and particulate was being burnt. This often involved having the flue-damper at least 50% closed, with air intake damper on minimum.

- Yes, the glass was smoking up daily, but would be cleaned off by the heat of the first fire of the day.

- When the installer came to have a look, he removed the flue-damper. 

- Had the chimney and flue cleaned professionally. He said he couldn't believe how much creosote their was, over an inch on the inside of the pipe. But to his mind, the real problem was the pest-screen on the cap: it was essentially 100% plugged, way worse than the chimney. He says he has seen this problem before. He removed the screen. He also said he saw no evidence of a chimney fire. He then did a test-fire, and saw that black-smoke was visible from the chimney (I don't know if he got the stove up to temp before looking), and told us that our wood must be soaking wet, and that was likely the real issue.

- Got a wood moisture meter (accurate to within 1%), and tested 8 pieces of pine, on a freshly split face: 9 - 12 % moisture.

I'm going to try getting the stove up to temp and putting the pine on and seeing if black-smoke is visible from the chimney.


Hope this helps and gets your diagnostic minds whirring,
Thank you again for your help.


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## Jags (Feb 9, 2015)

Welcome back.  9-12% humidity seems quite low.  Is this air dried fuel? Was it tested at room temps?  If frozen it will not read correctly.
Anything below ~400F during the active stage (before coaling) - is too low.  Smoking up the window is a sure sign of that.  The glass may clear up with the next fire, but your stack isn't gonna see anywhere near those kind of temps to "clean" it up.
Ignore the ranges on your thermo - they where designed for a surface stack temp thermo - not stovetop.

Try this:
Leave your stack damper full open for this entire test.  Load stove FULL of wood.  Ignite. Primary (left to right slide) full open (to the left).  Startup air full open (pushed in).  Allow stovetop to come to 400F and close startup air (if it is not the ACC version and automatic) This means pull the push/pull slide full out.  Allow stovetop to rise to 550-600F and close primary air full off, then open a pinch back up, maybe 5-10% open and monitor.  If stove continues to rise in temps close the primary a bit more.  When stove temp becomes stable - smile.
Don't go by "blue flames" or any other visual sites other than the thermo.  Keep stovetop south of 750F and it will be a happy camper for many, many years.

Here is what I would expect you to see.  Smoke from stack until stovetop gets north of 400F and possibly even up to 500F.  After that - no smoke.  No smoked up window and a nice fire and more than likely - more heat than you have ever produced from the stove.

Report back. (reporting back with your results is important.  It will be very telling if you get different results from the test above.  It WILL help us figure out what is going on if you are not successful with the above test.)


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## Oldman47 (Feb 9, 2015)

Jags, why are you suggesting that they ignore flame color? I really want to know because I ran industrial boilers for several years and flame color was our primary indication of how well our boilers were operating. A blue flame showed plenty of excess O2 and would lead to almost no visible smoke. An orange flame was O2 deficient and almost guaranteed a dark smoky flue.


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## Jags (Feb 9, 2015)

This is for testing purposes.

I don't know anything about the boilers you ran, but the reburn technology on these stove have people looking for all sorts of "wild rabbit" results.  Gotta have rolling flames, gotta see ghost flames, gotta see glowing embers with flame at the top of the box, etc. etc.  Half of that comes from "which 10 minutes" were you looking at the stove.  Temps don't lie and I know this stove very, very well.  If the OP runs the stove as I suggested above - and is successful with that run, I know what the results to the stove and burn will be.


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## Oldman47 (Feb 9, 2015)

I can accept that the secondaries were nothing I had to deal with back then. I really wanted to know for my own information.


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## Wood Duck (Feb 9, 2015)

I don't agree with the idea that having nothing but blue flames mean you're burning correctly. Yes, you should have some blue flame at the top of the firebox, but you also need some yellow flames coming from the wood, at least until the load of wood is thoroughly hot. I have four year old oak firewood that burns great, but I usually can't get the stove to burn with only blue secondary flame for more than a short portion of the burn cycle. Most of the time I need enough air to produce yellow flames until the wood is reduced to charcoal (you can't get yellow flames from charcoal).

If the glass is covered in soot, you need more air.


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## maple1 (Feb 9, 2015)

Jags - could the type of thermometer he's using be a factor? Can the OP post a pic of it & it's location?


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## Jags (Feb 9, 2015)

Oldman47 said:


> I can accept that the secondaries were nothing I had to deal with back then.



We see lots of posts about "can't get my secondary tubes to light off".  The idea that there has to be active flame there for it to be working is flawed.


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## Jags (Feb 9, 2015)

maple1 said:


> Jags - could the type of thermometer he's using be a factor?


Sure - the one he is using is meant for stove pipe.  You can tell by the range of temps that are being reported.  That is why I suggested above to not pay attention to the ranges but actually go by the temp readings.  This, of course, is assuming that the thermo is somewhat accurate to begin with.

OH - and for the Isle Royal thermo placement - I use the top left corner of the griddle area.


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## Toba Guy (Feb 9, 2015)

Thanks for the help Jags.

Forgot to mention, that before the flue was cleaned, the installer came and removed the flue-damper. So that is no longer part of the equation.

The wood is air-dried, and was at room temperature for a week before the moisture-meter reading. Does this mean I have extremely dry wood, or a faulty moisture-meter? It is a digital one, from Lee Valley Tools, Chesnut tools brand. 

Did the test you suggested, here were the results:

- during start-up, could feel the negative pressure establish itself (subtle pressure on my head), the furnace was running at the same time. So I opened the window next to the stove wide-open through-out. This also noticeably increased the draft as well. (We're in the process of getting a separate combustion air for the furnace, and fresh-air intake for the basement). 

- followed your instructions exactly, once it was up to 600 F turned the primary air all the way down, then back up 5-10%, it continued to climb, so I took it down to absolute minimum on the primary air, it stabilized at 700 F. 

- thick black smoke at 400, 500, 600, 650 F: so now I'm questioning either the thermometer or the wood. Does placement of the thermometer matter? I've got it on the stove-top, between the top-loading door and the pipe.


Thanks again.


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## Oldman47 (Feb 9, 2015)

Did you split that wood before taking a moisture reading?


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## Toba Guy (Feb 9, 2015)

Just saw your post regarding 


Oldman47 said:


> Did you split that wood before taking a moisture reading?


Sure did.


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## bholler (Feb 9, 2015)

9% to 12% is pretty low for air dried wood i would question the meter or the testing procedure.  Actual moisture levels that low are not impossible but not very likely.   Also thermometer placement matters allot and they can be off as well


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## HarmanManP43 (Feb 9, 2015)

Pick up some overpriced kiln dried wood from your local store and repeat the test.


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## maple1 (Feb 9, 2015)

There is a link to chart somewhere on the site, whereby you can measure resistance through the wood with an ohm meter, then convert the resistance to a %MC value. Might be good for verifying your moisture meter readings.


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## branchburner (Feb 9, 2015)

Toba Guy said:


> and tested 8 pieces of pine, on a freshly split face: 9 - 12 % moisture



This would be consistent with the idea that very dry wood ALONG WITH small sizes of that wood, with lots of exposed surface area, could be causing more outgassing and smoke production than can be handled by the secondary burn system.

If that was the case, stove temps might appear to be ok for burning smoke even though smoke wasn't fully being burned.

Personally, I prefer to rely on flue temps (and of course the visual indicator of no smoke) to ensure the burn is clean. Stove top doesn't always give me useful info.(Of course, I run a downdraft stove, so it easy for me to see the stove top run over 500f while the burn chamber is 300f, and obviously not burning smoke... or to have the top run under 500f even as the flue pushes 1000f.)


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## markam (Feb 9, 2015)

branchburner said:


> This would be consistent with the idea that very dry wood ALONG WITH small sizes of that wood, with lots of exposed surface area, could be causing more outgassing and smoke production than can be handled by the secondary burn system.
> 
> If that was the case, stove temps might appear to be ok for burning smoke even though smoke wasn't fully being burned.
> 
> Personally, I prefer to rely on flue temps (and of course the visual indicator of no smoke) to ensure the burn is clean. Stove top doesn't always give me useful info.(Of course, I run a downdraft stove, so it easy for me to see the stove top run over 500f while the burn chamber is 300f, and obviously not burning smoke... or to have the top run under 500f even as the flue pushes 1000f.)


I second the theory of excess gas which then condenses.  I have had instances where I put one particularly good split in and my entire firebox is on fire from the amount of gas released (even with air turned to minimum.  Try running a very small load in your stove and see how it works


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## Jags (Feb 9, 2015)

Okay - a couple of things.  First - yes placement of the thermo DOES matter.  You are measuring at the very hottest spot on the stove.  That is not a bad thing, but for this test I need it to be a familiar zone to me.  That zone is the top left corner of the griddle.  Second - man is that wood dry, if in fact your meter and procedure is accurate.  What size is the average stick of wood?  As Branchburner was pointing out - too small of wood can actually cause a massive outgassing that the reburn tubes simply can't consume - the result is smoke.

Any way to confirm the thermo accuracy.  Stick it to the wall of your oven at 450F??

We will get this figured out, just stick with us.


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## Toba Guy (Feb 9, 2015)

Don't worry about me sticking with you guys, this is more than I could ask for! 

Tested the thermometer: when the oven is at 300 F thermo says 400 F, when the oven is at 450 F thermo says 500 F. 
So obviously not too accurate. Time for a new thermometer, stove-top specific probably wouldn't be a bad idea either. Suggestions?

It _was_ smaller splits and a few pieces of small scrap 2x4 that I burnt for the test. (I had just split a bunch of previously split pieces to do the moisture test.) 

I'm taking the moisture meter over to my brother-in-laws place to test it on some green wood he cut this fall. 

I'll repeat the burn test tomorrow with some larger pieces, with the thermo in the top left-hand corner of the griddle. I'll let you know the results. 

Thanks again for all the help.


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## begreen (Feb 9, 2015)

Condar stove top thermometers:
http://www.condar.com/Stovetop_Thermometers.html


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## TheRambler (Feb 9, 2015)

I think its fairly easy to get pine and hemlock(all i have experience) with down to 12ish%. After just 6 months of seasoning i have a cord of mixed eastern white pine and eastern hemlock that measures 14-17%. So i don't find it really odd that he could have moisture readings  as low as he says. Resplit a few that i have  had inside in the basement for a few weeks and i am getting 12-14%.


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## TheRambler (Feb 9, 2015)

It might be worth picking up a cheap IR therm too, can be had at lots of hardware stores for 20-40 bucks


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## Oldman47 (Feb 9, 2015)

maple1 said:


> There is a link to chart somewhere on the site, whereby you can measure resistance through the wood with an ohm meter, then convert the resistance to a %MC value. Might be good for verifying your moisture meter readings.


The method is described here https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/using-a-multimeter-to-measure-wood-moisture-level.40033/ it is a pinned topic in the wood shed.


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## branchburner (Feb 9, 2015)

TheRambler said:


> It might be worth picking up a cheap IR therm too, can be had at lots of hardware stores for 20-40 bucks



Yup, and a nice thing about the IR gun is you can take temps at multiple spots on both stove and flue, in case any spots run a bit hotter or cooler.

I like having both the gun and the magnetic, but if I had to choose only one it would be the gun.


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## Lumber-Jack (Feb 9, 2015)

Jags said:


> We see lots of posts about "can't get my secondary tubes to light off".  *The idea that there has to be active flame there for it to be working is flawed.*


Flawed in what way?


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## Sodbuster (Feb 9, 2015)

Toba Guy said:


> Thanks for the help Jags.
> 
> Forgot to mention, that before the flue was cleaned, the installer came and removed the flue-damper. So that is no longer part of the equation.
> 
> ...


Something is not adding up, I've never seen thick black smoke coming from a wood stove chimney, unless your burning tire's  I think it's a fuel issue.


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## DougA (Feb 9, 2015)

Sodbuster said:


> I've never seen thick black smoke coming from a wood stove chimney,


Sometimes light grey smoke can appear black depending upon the sky conditions you are viewing it against.  I agree, if it was indeed black, that is troubling.


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## Toba Guy (Feb 9, 2015)

So went to my brother's place and measured some 1.5 years seasoned poplar he had, was at 18% on the moisture meter. And a piece from a dying elm he took down this fall was at 34%. 

So looks like the moisture meter is accurate, that pine was actually 9 - 12 %. So what does this extreme dryness mean to the situation as a whole? Adds weight to the excess gases condensating theory?


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## Toba Guy (Feb 9, 2015)

Tomorrow I'll repeat the test-burn scenario, one time with scrap, another with some of that poplar I got from my brother. See if the black smoke still appears.


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## TheRambler (Feb 10, 2015)

Your scrap is untreated wood, right?


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## Jags (Feb 10, 2015)

Lumber-Jack said:


> Flawed in what way?



The tubes don't have to be rolling flames to be working.

To the OP - running scraps isn't really a good test fire.  Grab a stove load from your brother of the real honest to goodness cordwood fuel.  Good old fashion normal sized splits.  Scraps should be used for kindling when starting a cold stove.  Not loading a stove.


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## Babaganoosh (Feb 10, 2015)

Could there be a problem with his secondary burn tubes? Just a thought?.


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## Jags (Feb 10, 2015)

Babaganoosh said:


> Could there be a problem with his secondary burn tubes? Just a thought?.



Sure - but on the IR they are a pretty basic config.  There could also be issues with the baffle, but I think we need to nail down the operation of the unit.  I don't think problems with the tubes or baffle can explain a clogged chimney in 3 weeks.


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## Babaganoosh (Feb 10, 2015)

I figured bad wood and a bad secondary could create all that black smoke and creosote. Plus he's a new burner running the stove too cold.


Gonna watch this thread for the eventual answer.


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## Jags (Feb 10, 2015)

Babaganoosh said:


> I figured bad wood and a bad secondary could create all that black smoke and creosote.



I wouldn't rule it out....


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## jatoxico (Feb 10, 2015)

Toba Guy said:


> So went to my brother's place and measured some 1.5 years seasoned poplar he had, was at 18% on the moisture meter. And a piece from a dying elm he took down this fall was at 34%.
> 
> So looks like the moisture meter is accurate, that pine was actually 9 - 12 %. So what does this extreme dryness mean to the situation as a whole? *Adds weight to the excess gases condensating theory?*



Branchburner already mentioned but I'll repeat it. We have had poster's describe heavy smoke from very dry wood due to excessive outgassing. So to ans your question, yes that's where I'm leaning anyway. Curious how long your burn cycle is?

I don't want to confuse the situation by suggesting this and that, but between the pretty high temps you hit with air shut down and "black" smoke it makes sense that very dry pine could do just what you're seeing. Follow Jag's advise and get a different load of wood. Might help to "time" the load and the temps (e.g. hit 600 ten minutes etc) and total burn time. Pic's of the load would be good too.


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## Lumber-Jack (Feb 10, 2015)

Jags said:


> The tubes don't have to be rolling flames to be working.
> .


Actually I would think that seeing flames around the secondary air tubes is about the only visible indication you can have that they are working to some degree. Without seeing actual flames you are likely just adding additional fresh air to the chimney exhaust much like a hole in flue would, or if you left the stove door open.
Of course if the goal is to add additional fresh air to the chimney exhaust, then I guess you could say that they are working effectively regardless of the lack of visible flames.


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## Jags (Feb 10, 2015)

Lumber-Jack said:


> Actually I would think that seeing flames around the secondary air tubes is about the only visible indication you can have that they are working to some degree.



Thats the point.  Just because you can't see it working doesn't mean that it is not working.


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## maple1 (Feb 10, 2015)

jatoxico said:


> Branchburner already mentioned but I'll repeat it. We have had poster's describe heavy smoke from very dry wood due to excessive outgassing. So to ans your question, yes that's where I'm leaning anyway. Curious how long your burn cycle is?
> 
> I don't want to confuse the situation by suggesting this and that, but between the pretty high temps you hit with air shut down and "black" smoke it makes sense that very dry pine could do just what you're seeing. Follow Jag's advise and get a different load of wood. Might help to "time" the load and the temps (e.g. hit 600 ten minutes etc) and total burn time. Pic's of the load would be good too.


 
Or just put a small load of the same pine. Start small, as they say. It is very plausible that it could be excessive outgassing from a big load of very dry pine.


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## j7art2 (Feb 10, 2015)

You need a fresh air intake in your basement. Of this, I am nearly 100% confident. You can verify this simply by running a thermometer on your flue pipe. If your flue temperatures are not at over 300dF, you will get creosote. No if's, and's or but's about it.

I had a friend who just got a brand new Yukon Eagle, and had an 80% clog and nearly had a chimney fire himself. He spent over $7000 on the unit after install, and was furious at the creosote monster it was. Yukon would not discuss ANY fine tuning of the unit until he installed a fresh air intake. $40 later, and all of his problems were gone.

I did the same with my 40 year old dinosaur. I have since seen an increase in efficiency as well. If you have a basement, you have negative pressure in the basement, and are not getting enough oxygen unless you have a window open. Even in a 120 year old house, his basement was too air tight.


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## jatoxico (Feb 10, 2015)

maple1 said:


> *Or just put a small load of the same pine*. Start small, as they say. It is very plausible that it could be excessive outgassing from a big load of very dry pine.



Sure, or find a couple splits of semi/unseasoned hardwood as a mix in wood. That's easy this time of year . Just didn't want to confuse things, I'm confused enough-


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## Jags (Feb 10, 2015)

j7art2 said:


> You need a fresh air intake in your basement.



If his stove temps continued to rise until the primary air was shut down to zero, I doubt if adding additional air is going to solve his issue.  It sounds like draft is a non issue at this point, unless I am missing something (possible).


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## Isaac Carlson (Feb 10, 2015)

The one thing that got me in the original post was the mention of 2" insulated pipe.  WHY is there 2" pipe on a wood burning stove and WHAT is it made of that it smells like plastic burning?  That stove should have a 6" insulated chimney.  Pics are needed here or a very good description of the pipe.


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## Lumber-Jack (Feb 10, 2015)

Jags said:


> Thats the point.  Just because you can't see it working doesn't mean that it is not working.


Perhaps that is your initial point, but my point is what is the definition of "working"?
If all the tubes are doing is allowing additional fresh air in to the chimney exhaust then by emission control standards you may be reducing the particulate count per given volume of emission (out the top of the chimney), but you are doing nothing to reduce the total particulate count per volume of wood burned, or burn of any un-burned fuel, which really should be our goal.
Pumping air into the exhaust to satisfy emission standards is an old automotive industry trick.
If you define working as simply meeting EPA emission standards, then perhaps the tubes are "working" effectively (without visible flames), but if working means effectively burning off some of the escaping un-burned fuel, then flames are a requirement.


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## Jags (Feb 10, 2015)

Lumber-Jack said:


> but if working means effectively burning off some of the escaping un-burned fuel, then flames are a requirement.



I disagree.  Consuming particulate matter doesn't have to require visible flame.  If enough is present - sure you will have flames and ghost flames and a rolling river at the top of the box, but just because you don't see those types of reactions doesn't mean that the tubes aren't picking off those particulates.  Its the whole smoke/no smoke discussion.


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## Dune (Feb 10, 2015)

Plow Boy said:


> You said "seasoned" pine.  I just wondering with this being a new install, how long have you prepared for the stove by seasoning wood.  Or did u get the pine from someone who said it was "seasoned".  My guess is the pine is green, that coupled with an unnecessary damper in the stove pipe caused a serious problem (to say the least).  Pine has a bad rep. around here because if you burn it to green your going to have trouble eventually.  Burning hardwoods green is bad, but pine is way worse; and can lead to a big pile of ashes where your house use to be.


Nope, green oak produces way more creosote than green pine. 
The OP made clear that in spite of thinking he wasn't smouldering, he was, with the stove control and the chimney damper set at minimum.


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## Dune (Feb 10, 2015)

bholler said:


> i find it amusing that the op hasn't responded yet and you guys keep theorizing i am curious to see what they have to say


Not really, the OP provided more than enough info.


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## Plow Boy (Feb 10, 2015)

Dune said:


> Nope, green oak produces way more creosote than green pine


 
sappy pine burns alot hotter than green hardwood and will start a cresote fire in your chimney.  My grandpa burned green pine slabs and we had us a big fire one evening


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## Dune (Feb 10, 2015)

Lumber-Jack said:


> Perhaps that is your initial point, but my point is what is the definition of "working"?
> If all the tubes are doing is allowing additional fresh air in to the chimney exhaust then by emission control standards you may be reducing the particulate count per given volume of emission (out the top of the chimney), but you are doing nothing to reduce the total particulate count per volume of wood burned, or burn of any un-burned fuel, which really should be our goal.
> Pumping air into the exhaust to satisfy emission standards is an old automotive industry trick.
> If you define working as simply meeting EPA emission standards, then perhaps the tubes are "working" effectively (without visible flames), but if working means effectively burning off some of the escaping un-burned fuel, then flames are a requirement.


If the fire is hot enough, then excess outgassed volatiles will burn due to the input of air. If it is simply diluting the output then the fire wasn't hot enough.


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## Dune (Feb 10, 2015)

Plow Boy said:


> sappy pine burns alot hotter than green hardwood and will start a cresote fire in your chimney.  My grandpa burned green pine slabs and we had us a big fire one evening


Yes, the volatiles are burning, pine burns hotter than Oak regardless.
Your Grandpa's stove wasn't an a Quadra fire, or he couldn't have burned green wood.

Your statement is an encapsulation of the pine myth.


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## Lumber-Jack (Feb 10, 2015)

Dune said:


> If the fire is hot enough, then excess outgassed volatiles will burn due to the input of air. If it is simply diluting the output then the fire wasn't hot enough.


True, and that is why when the stove is cool at the beginning of the burn cycle we don't see secondary combustion flames, but as the stove get hotter is when we generally start to see them, and then when the stove cools down again the secondary combustion begins to extinguish and we no longer see any visible secondary combustion.


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## Jags (Feb 10, 2015)

Randy - your secondaries visually die out long before all the particulates are burned up.  If the tubes are still at the required temps, they are still working to pick off the stuff floating by them.  It just isn't doing it with a big light show to prove it.

Anyhow - we are getting side tracked and I would like to keep this one on its tracks.  The OP needs help.


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## DougA (Feb 10, 2015)

Jags said:


> I would like to keep this one on its tracks. The OP needs help.


Yup.  Good topic for another thread though.


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## branchburner (Feb 10, 2015)

Plow Boy said:


> sappy pine burns alot hotter than green hardwood and will start a cresote fire in your chimney.



Perhaps unknowingly, you are perpetuating the pine myth. Yes, sappy pine burns hotter than green hardwood and will START a creosote fire. So the very hot fire, regardless of wood species, will START the fire by lighting off the pre-existing buildup. But where did the creosote buildup come from? By previously burning green wood, regardless of wood species, at cooler flue temps.

So by your own analysis, if green pine burns hotter, then green oak must burn cooler. If green oak burns cooler, then IT is the more likely cause of the prior excess buildup. WHATEVER wood you burn, it is the smoky, smoldering fire that causes the creosote, and the hotter fire that lights it off. People blame the hot-burning pine because it is the match that lights the chimney, but the fuel that is already IN the chimney comes from whatever was cool-burned before the pine (which may or may not itself be pine). By blaming the igniting pine, people are shooting the messenger.


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## Toba Guy (Feb 10, 2015)

Hello Folks,

So tried another test-burn, with the poplar this time. The results just have me confused. 

Didn't use any scrap, just bark and newspaper as kindling, normal sized splits as the fuel. Lit the paper, noticed the extreme lack of draw, remembered that the window wasn't open, opened it, draw improved but only somewhat. 

Got a lazer-thermometer, measured the upper-left corner of the griddle. 

Even at 125 F no black smoke coming from the flue, just some grey.

Took *25 minutes *for the stove to get up to 400 F, during which time the flames got smaller and smaller. 

No smoke, only "heat-mirage" off the flue at this temp. 

Turned off the ignition-air (pulled back out all the way). 

Stove temp only got up to 460 / 490 F, flames diminished further and draw poor (window next to the stove wide open throughout, primary air all the way to the left throughout). 

So where does this leave us now? 

Black smoke from the pine but not the poplar means there is something off with the pine?

Why did the draw get so awful with the poplar? (It is snowing with heavy-low clouds today, is it an atmospheric pressure issue exacerbating something else?)

Insights? Thoughts?


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## Toba Guy (Feb 10, 2015)

TheRambler said:


> Your scrap is untreated wood, right?


For sure. 

I've got gardens all around the house, no way I'd be burning pressure-treated.


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## Toba Guy (Feb 10, 2015)

DougA said:


> Sometimes light grey smoke can appear black depending upon the sky conditions you are viewing it against.  I agree, if it was indeed black, that is troubling.


Seems like it was actually black yesterday with the pine. Similar sky today (overcast and grey), and smoke didn't appear at all the same when burning the poplar.


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## jatoxico (Feb 10, 2015)

Did you put the MM on the poplar? Sounds like not fully seasoned poplar but that's more like what is supposed to be like. It's encouraging that you were able to run w/o smoke and those temps seem more appropriate and show you have some control over the stove. If you have more, a mix of pine and poplar may give a you what you want.


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## begreen (Feb 10, 2015)

Draft is weak. Can you describe the flue system from stove to the chimney cap? How tall, any bends? All metal or??

I'm not surprised about the poplar, it has low btu content. Good for shoulder season burning though.


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## Plow Boy (Feb 10, 2015)

branchburner said:


> Perhaps unknowingly, you are perpetuating the pine myth. Yes, sappy pine burns hotter than green hardwood and will START a creosote fire. So the very hot fire, regardless of wood species, will START the fire by lighting off the pre-existing buildup. But where did the creosote buildup come from? By previously burning green wood, regardless of wood species, at cooler flue temps.
> 
> So by your own analysis, if green pine burns hotter, then green oak must burn cooler. If green oak burns cooler, then IT is the more likely cause of the prior excess buildup. WHATEVER wood you burn, it is the smoky, smoldering fire that causes the creosote, and the hotter fire that lights it off. People blame the hot-burning pine because it is the match that lights the chimney, but the fuel that is already IN the chimney comes from whatever was cool-burned before the pine (which may or may not itself be pine). By blaming the igniting pine, people are shooting the messenger.


 

I agree, I burn pine to this day(seasoned a year). and yes the issue is burning green wood and then burning something that got the fire hot enough to light the cresote.


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## jatoxico (Feb 10, 2015)

I'm taking the weak draft with a grain of salt at the moment. Just because the load of poplar didn't take off like a load of super dry kindling pine doesn't mean the draft is weak. Are you getting smoke in the house?


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## Jags (Feb 10, 2015)

Hmmmm...
No black smoke = good.  Not being able to get above 490F = bad.  You may find that stove temps will INCREASE as you shut the primary down on an established fire.  It allows heat to be retained in the stove instead of getting flushed up the stove pipe.  Heavy, wet air can affect draft.

With your description of flames getting smaller and smaller it suggests that you may have another fuel issue.  It sounds like the dry exterior was burning off exposing the wetter interior wood.  As suggested above, maybe a combo of the fuel is the ticket.

The issue of draft is tricky.  With the scraps it was raging.  With the cordwood it appears slow.  Wondering out loud if this is actually a "_draft_" issue or a fuel issue.


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## Jacyte (Feb 10, 2015)

This entire issue sounds very similar to the behavior of my stove when burning 3-4 year split but stacked too tight red oak. The wood was very dry and nice at the top of the stacks and the ends but as I reached the middle it smoldered and created a ton of creosote. It would flame up nice early then die down to barely burning within 30 mins. It would struggle to get the cats to active range and even a long burn would fail to evaporate enough water to dry it before the bulk of the wood was gone. I now have even wetter wood but the cores are dry while the exterior is wet. This wood takes a few minutes to light but once it flames it does well.


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## Jags (Feb 10, 2015)

I would try the test one more time.  I would try it with 25% of the scrap material and 75% of cord wood.  Load the scraps on the bottom and stack cord wood on top.  Light from bottom.
At 450F shut down the primary to 2/3rds closed and monitor.  If you see stove temps starting to rise (this can take an additional 10-15 min), close primary air down accordingly, BUT allow for stove top to rise to ~600F. If this is successful check your stack for smoke (I'll bet you a shiny nickle there won't be any).  If it DOESN'T rise we have a draft/fuel issue for sure.


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## saskwoodburner (Feb 10, 2015)

jatoxico said:


> I'm taking the weak draft with a grain of salt at the moment. Just because the load of poplar didn't take off like a load of super dry kindling pine doesn't mean the draft is weak. Are you getting smoke in the house?



I'm thinking the poplar he's tried isn't quite there, moisture wise. I've made all my mistakes (maybe more to come yet!) since October and while I'm no expert on poplar, if it was dry enough, he should have nailed the temp out of the park. I'm a happy peasant burning poplar, and while you never get a long burn time, you sure can generate some heat. And with poplar that's not quite there, it seems to need a lot more air to keep going, and never hits the nice high temps.


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## branchburner (Feb 10, 2015)

Jags said:


> As suggested above, maybe a combo of the fuel is the ticket.



Agree, it's hard to figure out what's going on just on the basis of one poplar load. I burn a fair amount of poplar, and depending on source if it's not borderline green it often ends up being borderline punky with lower heat output... sometimes it burns really great for me, but sometimes not.

Maybe try a few loads where both species AND sizes are mixed. No need to avoid a healthy amount of kindling or smaller stuff on startup, just don't make that the entire load (and don't use much if any on reload).

A lot of my loads end of being a combo of pine, poplar and various hardwoods, with a little 1-3" branch wood underneath the bigger splits to help them along. A few very big splits on top of just paper and bark wouldn't generally cut it in my stove for a nice hot fire, especially if there is no underlying coal bed.


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## branchburner (Feb 10, 2015)

saskwoodburner said:


> And with poplar that's not quite there, it seems to need a lot more air to keep going, and never hits the nice high temps.



That's how I started this season, so I've left those stacks for next year. Last year I had some standing dead poplar that was a little too far gone, dry though starting to get punky. But two years ago I had perfect poplar, burnt easy, hot and quick, and coaled up very nicely (unlike my white pine).

Most people I know around here tend to treat poplar like pine, not enough BTU per volume to bother with. More free tree left for me.


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## saskwoodburner (Feb 10, 2015)

branchburner said:


> Most people I know around here tend to treat poplar like pine, not enough BTU per volume to bother with. More free tree left for me.



I feel the same way about free wood. Neighbor has a 80 acre chunk of land, about 1/3 is still trees, and he knows I like poplar. He tells me, take all you like. So I said deadfall or live.....he says take whatever you want, with a smile. 

Well I hope the OP gets to the bottom of this problem.


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## Toba Guy (Feb 12, 2015)

Hello Folks,

OP back again.

This is a bit of an epic post, so stick with me.

So I agreed with those of you who figured it was a bit jumping to conclusions to try and fully diagnose off one load of poplar (the previous test-fire). Especially seeing as how I didn't load it as I usually would for a cold stove (with some scrap between the kindling and cordwood). I must have misunderstood, I thought we were doing some weird test-fire without any scrap to take that aspect out of the equation. I think we can more or less ignore those previous results, considering what happened with the poplar load below. 

Test fire #1: "25% scrap, 75% poplar" as suggested by Jags

_load consisted of paper, bark, 4 pieces foot-long pieces of scrap 2x4, 4 normal-sized splits of poplar

In the last test-fire, we had already established that the poplar didn't produce black-smoke and would quit smoking completely once up to temp, so I didn't bother running in and out to check the chimney as often, same results as the last test burn, some smoke at the start-up, but once up to temp, no problems, only heat-mirage at the cap. _

*0 minutes: *lit the fire

*6 minutes: *stove temp (measured by IR thermo at upper left-hand corner of griddle) up to 350 F. Stove is chugging air hard, so I shut off the ignition air. 

*8: *500 F so took the primary air down to 5-10%

*10: *525 F

*15:* 600 F so took the primary air down to minimum

*17:* 650 F

*23:* 665 F

*27:* 685 F

*30: *700 F

*34:* 725 F

*36:* 750 F    Fire was drawing like crazy, flames whipping around, despite being choked back as far as possible. Since the temperature was still climbing, I became worried about over-firing the stove, but with the primary air already at minimum, my only option was to close the window and induce a negative-pressure in the basement, so I did. It helped immediately with the draw, and the temperature began to fall soon after.

*40:* 765 F

*43: *725 F

*45: *700 F

*1 hour and 25 minutes:* 500 F

So I don't know if this is a normal situation with poplar of 18% moisture (this is only the second time I've burnt this species), but I was concerned over the possibility of over-fire. I know Jags, you said to keep it below 700 F. Made me wish I still had the flue-damper installed. Also makes me wonder what would have happened had I already had the new combustion-air to the furnace and fresh-air intake for the basement already installed (happening this Saturday, to resolve the negative pressure issue), and thus no ability to close the window and cut air to the stove further. 

- What is the max safe temp for the stove? 
- What peak temperature should I be shooting for? 
- Should I have been able to control the fire more easily or is this the way it goes? (Had I been loading onto an established coal-bed, say before turning in for the night, I could easily have packed the stove way more. Does this mean I can't load the stove fully with poplar alone? Need to mix in some Oak etc?). 
- Suggestions / insights I'm not cluing into see as how I'm a first-time burner?


I also did another test-fire with the 9-12% moisture pine:

Test fire #2: Can I get the pine to burn without black smoke?

_After having "burning-tires" amounts of black smoke when burning a load of only smaller pine-splits, despite good temperatures reached, I wanted to see if I could burn smaller numbers of larger pieces of pine and have a clean burn (thus testing out the excess-gases-condensating theory). 

Load was paper, bark, two 15" pieces of scrap 2x4, and 2 larger-sized pine-splits.

Here is what happened:_

*0 minutes: *lit the fire. 

*5 minutes*: 250 F

*8 minutes:* 425 F, drawing well, but not chugging like the previous time. But up to temp so I cut the ignition air. Some grey smoke at the chimney still. 

*11 minutes: *475 F

*12 minutes:* 500 F

*14: *525 F. Less grey smoke at chimney, but some still visible. Cut the primary air down to 5 - 10%. 

*20:* 550 F. No smoke at the chimney, only heat-mirage. 

*25 minutes: *535 F. Still clean-burn at the cap. 


So correct me if I'm drawing the wrong conclusion, but looks that the previous times with black-smoke _was _likely due to the 2ndary tubes being overwhelmed with excess particulate / gases? 
Is this what the installer was talking about regarding the pine being "punky": Too dry and burns too fast?

What else should I be pulling out of this test-fire?

Suggestions for future loads, combinations of species to balance things out further? Or test things further?


I'm just glad I've found a way to cleanly burn that cord and a half of pine I have sitting in the garage. 


Thanks for reading this epic post, 
And being so generous with your time and experience this past week.


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## jatoxico (Feb 12, 2015)

Off hand that sounds like good progress and yes I think the pine was outgassing. Once the pine got get fully involved with fire caused massive amount of gas to be released and overwhelmed 2ndary burn capacity.

I would also wonder that now you are getting more familiar if you could start shutting air earlier to minimize peak stove temp and maximize cruise temp. May not really need to even use startup air most times and start cutting primary sooner.

As far as wood types you'll get a feel but that pine has a place just may need to use it over time as a mix in. Great to have as a mixer when you're stuck with marginal hardwood. Matter of trial and error but there are also things you can do as far as E/W or N/S loading, split size and packing depending on if you're going for short hot fire or longer burn more moderate burn.


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## begreen (Feb 12, 2015)

Another control factor would be the size of the splits. Larger splits = slower burn. And there is the air between splits. Tighter packed fires will burn slower.


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## Plow Boy (Feb 13, 2015)

I'm concerned with the fact the flames where still very active with the primary air closed off. On my stove as soon as I close primary air I can see the effect on the fire , sounds like an air leak or really strong draft issue.


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## Jags (Feb 13, 2015)

I will have to admit that I have had my stove at 850F+.  Not proud of it, but it has happened.  Your peak temps didn't hurt the stove a bit, but I would be looking at ~750 as the ceiling goal with a cruise temp from 500F to 650F.  A bit higher won't hurt things, but unless you are at the coaling stage I wouldn't dip much below 500F or you might start to see smoke again.

Sounds like you are starting to get the hang of things.  BG is correct - split size matters.  You are running a big stove.  Run big splits.  With 18% popular it doesn't really surprise me that you would have a whiplash effect on the temps.  Start cutting the primary air back a bit sooner with that wood.

Now that you have a base line to work with as far as stove performance goes - you can tweak your methods.  This is part of the "learning curve".  Every stove has one and every install is a bit different.  Keep playing.  Eventually the process becomes muscle memory.  There will always be that stove load...or that split...or that day that switches things up on you, but with experience comes knowing what to do about it.

Sounds like your are ready to leave the nest...


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## branchburner (Feb 13, 2015)

Nice to hear those results. I'd say with a little more experimenting and tweaking with wood selection and air control you will be running smoothly and virtually smoke-free with no problems. A warm stack means a clean stack, which is a pretty good feeling at the end of the burning season.

Different strokes for different folks (and stoves), but I now adjust my primary air and shut the stove back almost exclusively on the basis of flue temps rather than stove top temps. My flue gets real hot, real quick. And if the flue temp drops too low, I know the secondaries have stalled and I need to get the fire hotter, a fact that is not always immediately reflected by the temp of the stove itself. Ultimately, it is the low stack temp and not the stove temp that yields a good crop of creosote.

Happy burning!


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## begreen (Feb 13, 2015)

This year I've found myself going more by flue temps too branchburner. Warming up from a cold start the stove top can be 250-300F, but the flue is approaching 6-800F. That is time to start shutting down the air. At that flue temp I usually will drop the air to 50-60%, wait 5-7 minutes, then close the air all the way down.


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## Jags (Feb 13, 2015)

begreen said:


> This year I've found myself going more by flue temps too branchburner. Warming up from a cold start the stove top can be 250-300F, but the flue is approaching 6-800F. That is time to start shutting down the air. At that flue temp I usually will drop the air to 50-60%, wait 5-7 minutes, then close the air all the way down.



I also base my cold startup adjustments on flue temps until the stove "catches up".  This is the basis for my suggestion of two thermos if possible.  One stovetop and one flue temp.


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## jatoxico (Feb 13, 2015)

I have an insert so no flue temp readings for me but have been kicking around the idea of putting a digital temp thermo in the stream near the cap and monitoring effluent temps. Could make adjustments down below based on that. Anyone ever try this?


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## FTG-05 (Feb 15, 2015)

begreen said:


> This year I've found myself going more by flue temps too branchburner. Warming up from a cold start the stove top can be 250-300F, but the flue is approaching 6-800F. That is time to start shutting down the air. At that flue temp I usually will drop the air to 50-60%, wait 5-7 minutes, then close the air all the way down.



How are you measuring flue temps?

I have double pipe inside the house (and in the chimney of course) so a magnetic temp gauge won't work on it.  What do you guys recommend?

Thanks,


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## begreen (Feb 15, 2015)

http://www.condar.com/Probe_Thermometers.html


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## BradleyW (Feb 15, 2015)

I also like to use both the flue and stovetop temps when operating the stove. Last year I didn't use thermometers, only judged by the fire, and I wonder what mistakes I made. Mostly I think I ran the stove inefficiently and had a lot of heat going out the chimney that didn't have to.


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## Woody Stover (Feb 16, 2015)

Toba Guy said:


> I'm just glad I've found a way to cleanly burn that cord and a half of pine I have sitting in the garage.Thanks for reading this epic post, and being so generous with your time and experience this past week.


Sounds like you're making good observations and getting a handle on it. I got here late, but with *IR, PINE, POPLAR, SCRAPS etc, *I saw the hot stove coming a few pages back.  Several have commented that the IR likes to run, and with those loads...  As mentioned, you'll get a feel for when to start cutting the air to keep the new load under control and avoid getting too much wood gassing. As also mentioned, about the time you think you have it figured out, you'll get the mystery load that goes high on ya, so be ready for that. 


Toba Guy said:


> window next to the stove wide open throughout....Why did the draw get so awful with the poplar? (It is snowing with heavy-low clouds today, is it an atmospheric pressure issue exacerbating something else?).....Black smoke from the pine but not the poplar means there is something off with the pine?


Yes, atmospheric conditions can affect draw. And which window is open can make a difference (upwind or downwind.) I don't burn much Pine so don't know how a full load of smoke would look coming out the stack, but if I have a couple kindling in the stove, or a split on an outside fire, it's definitely making black smoke. But as you've seen, once the re-burn on the stove is working there's no need to worry about chimney deposits.


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## wildcatbb (Feb 19, 2015)

I had a similar problem...3 weeks into heating with an old wood furnace. Chimney was plenty high, or so I thought, 4 foot higher than anything within 10 feet around it. Wood wasnt the best either. End result=Not good


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## wildcatbb (Feb 19, 2015)

I had been fighting a bad draft and added 3 more feet of pipe after this pic was taken and the chimney was cleaned out and not a problem since!


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## DougA (Feb 19, 2015)

I am speechless when I saw that photo.

I'm glad you got everything fixed.  Amazing how a few feet will fix a drafting problem. I hope all those members who have been posting about bad drafts will read your post.


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## wildcatbb (Feb 19, 2015)

It's quite amazing! My chimney was well within spec but I believe the surrounding woods on the north side and another roof line for my house to the southwest caused a weird air pattern. Everyone that looked at it before the 3' was added said it was fine"plenty of height "! Wrong.......as soon as I added that 3'  the old smoke dragon ran like id never seen it do before!


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## Sawset (Feb 21, 2015)

I have both a stove top and flue thermometer.  I've found the stove top a very poor indicator, and the flue thermometer as the more critical indicator.  The two can be completly independant of each other, where the flue to me determines limits and actions. I use three temperatures in the flue.  Below 250 creosote condenses, at 550 creosote burns, 1000 is the limit of the duravent stainless chimney running continously.  Below 250 I've had creosote condense inside the chimney and result in a puddle of black dripping out the back of the stove onto the hearth.  At 550 condensation on the glass (and inside the chimney) will begin to burn back off and self clean.  I've burned wet wood for extended periods successfully, as long as the temps are kept up.  Cleaning the chimney afterward (once mid season, once at the end) produces only small amounts of carbon powder.  Tel-Tru LT225R 200/1000degF is the thermometer I use.  I recently had an issue with a plugged cap screen, and can now safely attribute the cause as 1) the stack thermometer was out of calibration by 100deg, it needs to be checked periodically, something I was lax on, 2) putting splits on in the middle of the night and walking away without opening up the air and getting the stack temp back up.


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## Jags (Feb 23, 2015)

This past weekend I was cranking up a cooled down stove and hit 1100F probe temp.  The stove top was at 400F.

This obviously called for an air adjustment, but if I was going by stove top alone I would have never guessed the pipe was ripping hot.


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## branchburner (Feb 23, 2015)

Jags said:


> This past weekend I was cranking up a cooled down stove and hit 1100F probe temp.  The stove top was at 400F.
> 
> This obviously called for an air adjustment, but if I was going by stove top alone I would have never guessed the pipe was ripping hot.



I shudder to think how hot I must have sometimes run my flue before putting a thermometer on it, but sometimes I'd rather not see. Waiting for a downdraft stove to get to temp before closing the bypass can mean watching your flue get REAL hot, real fast. The spike on a hot reload is scary if that bypass stays open for more than a few minutes.


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## Zemmie (Feb 23, 2015)

I have been reading through this post and thought I would through my two cents in. I have a Hearthstone Manchester installed last fall and am burning mixed hardwood and ash. One day I thought I would throw in a seasoned pine log for the fun of it and then went outside. Few minutes later black smoke, like I was burning oil. I know this stove very well now and knew something was wrong. Come to find out it was the sap on the bark burning off the log. So to conclude does the pine your burning have a lot of sap on it? If so this is definitely were your black smoke is coming from.


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## DougA (Feb 23, 2015)

branchburner said:


> I shudder to think how hot I must have sometimes run my flue before putting a thermometer on it


++++1
I think many members here would rather not be enlightened.  The 2 days before I discovered my baffle was broken, I was seeing flue temps that were way more than I would dare post here and they can jump from hot to holy sh*t in half a minute. It's crazy dangerous.


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## DanCorcoran (Feb 23, 2015)

wildcatbb said:


> It's quite amazing! My chimney was well within spec but I believe the surrounding woods on the north side and another roof line for my house to the southwest caused a weird air pattern. Everyone that looked at it before the 3' was added said it was fine"plenty of height "! Wrong.......as soon as I added that 3'  the old smoke dragon ran like id never seen it do before!



Please start a new thread with a title something like, "Look at this photo after 3 weeks with insufficient draft!".  That way people who are researching draft problems can find it.  You might also provide some background comments, as you did in this thread.  Thanks for posting!


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## wildcatbb (Feb 23, 2015)

Taken care of....new thread started!


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## Jeffm1 (Dec 26, 2015)

Toba Guy said:


> Ok, so here is the story.
> 
> Just got my first ever woodstove installed, Quadra-fire Isle Royale, with top-loading door.
> 
> ...


New burner here and I will admit I only read three pages of this long thread so forgive me if someone already mentioned this. But the flue damper seemed to jump out at me as well as this next point. Do you live in a spot that has high winds at times? I live in a place that gets extremely windy for three months out of the year. One night when the wind was really kicking up and swirling we had a draft coming back own the stove pipe and smoke smell in the house. If you live near a hill or edge of forest or other obstacles sometimes these create different pressures that Jack with the draft up your chimney. You said your stove was running great and then all of a sudden whammo . Plugged up. All the other points have already been mentioned but I did not see anything about high wind issues. I am wondering if high wind sessions combined with the stove in your basement was the problem. If that could be an issue just replace your standard chimney cap with a wind cap and the problem will be solved. Also something else that would go long with this...maybe your chimney needs to be taller. If it sits in a bowl it might be fine when the wind doesn't blow hard but when it does all the pressures change causing back pressure in your flue. I would look at this as well, especially if the top of your chimney is below the line of the peak of your roof.


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