# What lighting do you recommend for an often cold garage?



## Sprinter

I have four double 4' fluorescent fixtures in the unheated garage.  They are useless at less than 50-55F.  It's frustrating.  I have some tube fixtures in the house utility room and kichen, and I don't mind them so much, especially since I installed electronic ballasts in them.

But I sure would like to flick a switch in the garage in the cold wx and actually get light.  Otherwise, I like the wide diffusion of the 4' tubes. 

In the Green Room because you guys seem pretty up on lighting which I haven't been lately.


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## peakbagger

Cant beat LEDS for this. If you want the maximum efficiency, you can rip out the ballasts and go with dedicated LED tubes, otherwise you can get LED tubes that have a built in transformer that will work with newer fixtures without messing with the ballasts. Either way they work great in cold temps and the light is better. You may end needing less fixtures


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## jb6l6gc

Those are old fixtures obviously. You need cold start ballasts!


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## semipro

Good info in this thread and some others: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/plug-in-t8-leds-vs-line-voltage.150914/#post-2025491

Here too: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/lighting-layout.151967/#post-2065322

I may be able to save you the time of reading through it all though:  invest in some new LED shop fixtures.


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## Seasoned Oak

4 Double LED worklight fixtures with lights will set you back about $140.00 at $35 a pop.  Only Like 5 bucks more than a regular Florescent Fixture till you buy the bulbs.  And if you factor in replacing those bulbs left and right its probably cheaper. Even the new T8 fixtures with the skinny bulbs burn out left and right. Ill   never buy Florescent Shoplights  again,its all LED. Plus its 40 watts total power consumption VS 64 for the T8 fixture.


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## Kevin*

jb6l6gc said:


> Those are old fixtures obviously. You need cold start ballasts!


There's a reason they sell cold weather fluorescent fixtures, had one in my cold ass garage for years and it always flips right on.

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## jebatty

I suspect that buying and installing cold start ballasts may be more expensive than buying new LED fixtures. And cold start ballasts will not cure the rapid depletion in light output of T8's over time, nor cure the high power consumption of T8's vs LED's, nor cure the lower usable light output.


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## jb6l6gc

personally had my new shop lights installed for two years now and have yet to have a tube burn out.
They may not be that expensive if you have a good electrical supply in your local. I know the fixtures go on sale for like $24 here, I just waited for that sale to buy mine.  LED's are great but I find sometimes they have a weird flicker and depending, the light colour can take some getting used to.


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## peakbagger

The utilities were heavily subsidizing T-8s retrofits with electronic ballasts for businesses a few years back and most of the businesses regretted them due to high ballast failure and frequent tube replacement. Many of the fixtures got yanked and replaced with heavily subsidized LEDs usually with fancy options like occupancy and remote access. The businesses like them much better although it does take a bit of getting used to walking through a dark warehouse and having the lights turn off behind you while the light above you turns on. Feels like someone is following you with a spotlight. They also remotely dim the lights as the typical very white LED light tends to be too bright most of the time. I find that it tends to get into shaded spots far better than fluorescents. Most of the LED retrofits are in clear plastic sleeves instead of glass, they don't shower the area with glass like a glass tube will when broken and generally take a bit of a whack to actually stop them from running.  

The biggest issue is that in order to drive the LED price down there is some real junk on the market.


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## Corey

Don't even know that I'd replace the fixture... you can buy 4ft LED 'tubes' that retrofit right into the old fluorescent fixture.  You just take out any starter/ballast and wire 120VAC to the bulb terminals.  Looks like the high power 25W are around $8/tube and the normal power (18W LED = 60W incandescent) are cheaper.


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## Highbeam

My 1800 SF shop is usually not heated. I'm up at 1000' ASL near mount rainier and used modern t8 fixtures from HD for the lighting. I have only replaced 2 of the tubes in the last 4-5 years since they were installed. When it's really cold they don't fire to full brightness at first but within a minute or so they're at full output. No buzz, flicker, or nonstarts. The electronic ballasts are indeed "cold weather" but that is just what they sell these days at the big box. Rated to work down to zero F as I recall. When I bought them the LED price/tech was not ready and it still might not be. I Bought two cases of t8 tubes for something silly like 1.50 per bulb so no big deal if one dies. I still have 15 or so left in a box.

I do not expect to replace fixtures or bulbs ever or often enough to matter. You account for the fact that t8 bulb output goes down over time in your lighting design, just overlamp when new. Oh, I used 9 or 10, 8 foot long, 4 bulb fixtures from HD. 3700k t8.

I sure love my LED can lights in the house though.

My point is that you don't "need" LED to get workable light in a cold garage. Some old flourescents were not designed to work well in the cold.


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## Seasoned Oak

I dont know what the problem is with my T8 fixtures and lights but the tubes turn black on the ends very quickly and the bulbs dont last more than a few months to a year.  LED shoplights i have are about 6 months old and are working flawlessly so far,very bright too on less power.


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## sportbikerider78

I have these and I like them.   I can't say they are the best or cheapest, but they come on full blast in my cold garage.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Feit-Electric-4-ft-2-Light-LED-Utility-Shop-Light-73985/205701897

I had the traditional "2 bulb" garage lighting..which was terrible,,because I have a high ceiling 3 bay garage.  I swapped out the bases for ones with an outlet and plugged the LED fixtures right in.  In the sockets, I used a 2 bulb adapter and put in 2 more LEDs'. 

Where there were 2 bulbs, now there are 4 bulbs and 2 strip lights.


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## Highbeam

t8 fixtures attached to a white steel ceiling. I'm very happy with the result. The t8s provide lighting, I can always kick on additional task lighting for something very specific or when under a vehicle.


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## Seasoned Oak

Highbeam said:


> t8 fixtures attached to a white steel ceiling. I'm very happy with the result. The t8s provide lighting, I can always kick on additional task lighting for something very specific or when under a vehicle.


Nice setup, i guess im not the only one who puts his NC-30 up on two rows of cement blocks. Iv got 2 Ncs, one in a shop and one in a house im rehabbing and they are both up on 2 rows of blocks.


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## Sprinter

Thank you all for the education.  I have not kept up on lighting for a long time and how it has changed for the consumer.   For my garage issue, my fixtures are all T12 but I think I favor the idea of bypassing the ballasts for that type of LED tube.  Seems easy enough and worth the cost.  Maybe I'll wait until fall and see what's available then.  I appreciate the answers.


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## sportbikerider78

If you don't care,,,I'd encourage waiting.  I think the prices on replacement bulbs will drop significantly in the next 2 yrs.


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## Highbeam

T12 are the old old stuff. Probably a magnetic ballast. Probably noisy. Not likely rated for very low temperature. Bulb selection is fading to zero on those. I suspect "their" way of making you upgrade to a more efficient fixture is to make your old tubes obsolete.


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## Highbeam

Seasoned Oak said:


> Nice setup, i guess im not the only one who puts his NC-30 up on two rows of cement blocks. Iv got 2 Ncs, one in a shop and one in a house im rehabbing and they are both up on 2 rows of blocks.



Thanks SO. I needed to get 18" of elevation to pass my inspection. It's a permitted install.


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## Seasoned Oak

With the difference of less than $5 between a T8 fixture and bulbs and a power saving Hi-efficient LED fixture with built in bulbs i dont see any reason to buy another T8 fixture,ever.


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## Highbeam

Seasoned Oak said:


> With the difference of less than $5 between a T8 fixture and bulbs and a power saving Hi-efficient LED fixture with built in bulbs i dont see any reason to buy another T8 fixture,ever.



The fixtures are only 45$ for 4 bulbs, which is 11,600 lumens.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lithonia...rip-Flushmount-TC-2-32-120-1-4-GESB/100192753

Bulbs for 2$ each. 2900 lumens, 30,000 hour bulb life.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-...uorescent-Light-Bulb-30-Pack-434530/205477883

Every day at your local home depot. What LED do you have to compare from a non-mail order site?


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## Highbeam

Looks like we're still at 80$ for a similar 8' fixture that only makes 8000 lumens with max bulb life of 50,000 hours.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/EnviroLi...Lumen-DLC-Flex-Tubes-EVST704T204001/206101301

So you need 1.45 times as many of these fixtures for the same output which cost you 116$ per equivalent. Compare that to only 49$ for the T8 fixture with bulbs.

LED is still more than twice as expensive to purchase.

Sure they use less power but not that much less.


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## Sprinter

Highbeam said:


> T12 are the old old stuff. Probably a magnetic ballast. Probably noisy. Not likely rated for very low temperature. Bulb selection is fading to zero on those. I suspect "their" way of making you upgrade to a more efficient fixture is to make your old tubes obsolete.


All true.  I hope I can find the style of LED tube that supports the ballast- bypass method in a T12 form factor.  I couldn't seem to find one at HD, but I'm going to wait til next fall anyway.  They're all working fine now. 

FWIW, I installed a T8 fixture several years ago at a relatives' place, but I was very disappointed with the apparent output and the color.  Maybe I got the wrong kind of tube, but the output seemed much dimmer than  the T12s and the color was bad.  That experience put me off of T8 fixtures.  I much preferred the "cool white" T12s.  They do work much better with an electronic ballast, though, for sure. (I had to replace one that failed).


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## Highbeam

Your color choices with t8 are far greater than with t12. Especially now that t12 are dying away. I bought a couple of the cheap t8 hanging shop light fixtures with the reflectors and plug in cords and have been happy with them too. Really low price if you want a plug in deal.


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## Seasoned Oak

Highbeam said:


> Every day at your local home depot. What LED do you have to compare from a non-mail order site?


I get the 4 foot LED shoplight  available in a 2 set pak. For $32.50 Unit,  Nice and bright at 4500 Lumens
Price has been dropping steadily
http://www.samsclub.com/sams/2pk-led-shoplight-4-ft-led-shoplight/prod20051839.ip?navAction=

The T8 Fixture at my local ACE Hardware store is $23 ,but then i have to pay $7 for 2pak of bulbs.


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## Seasoned Oak

Just noticed these replacement LED bulbs for  T8 fixture but not all that much cheaper than the whole light. And only 30 watts total.
http://www.samsclub.com/sams/t8-15w-5000k-2-pk-2-pack-t8-led-lamps/prod18920266.ip?navAction=push


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## Sprinter

Seasoned Oak said:


> I get the 4 foot LED shoplight  available in a 2 set pak. For $32.50 Unit,  Nice and bright at 4500 Lumens
> Price has been dropping steadily
> http://www.samsclub.com/sams/2pk-led-shoplight-4-ft-led-shoplight/prod20051839.ip?navAction=


That's encouraging.  I was assuming I would be retrofitting my T12 fixtures, but I may end up replacing them altogether when the time comes.  We'll see.


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## RSNovi

I put T8 fluorescents with cold start in my pole barn located in Michigan.  They always fire right up.  I wanted it like daylight in there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## begreen

A friend put a full set of T8's in his wood shop. Good light, but they completely block radio reception. Thinking now of taking them out and putting in LEDs.


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## Seasoned Oak

ID rather go with the whole LED fixture. That way i know the the bulbs are matched correctly with any other components of the fixture. ,and they do claim  50000 hour bulb life.Theres no way im getting anywhere close to that out of my remaining T8 bulbs and fixtures


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## Highbeam

Seasoned Oak said:


> ID rather go with the whole LED fixture. That way i know the the bulbs are matched correctly with any other components of the fixture. ,and they do claim  50000 hour bulb life.Theres no way im getting anywhere close to that out of my remaining T8 bulbs and fixtures



Yeah, 30,000 claimed from the 2$ t8 tubes. That's like 30 years at 3 hours per day.


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## Highbeam

begreen said:


> A friend put a full set of T8's in his wood shop. Good light, but they completely block radio reception. Thinking now of taking them out and putting in LEDs.



Inside my metal sided barn with metal ceiling and like 36 t8 bulbs burning I get perfect radio reception but not cell reception. Your friend has radio and/or electrical problems.


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## begreen

Google - T8 ballast blocks radio. No wiring or radio problem. The shop is all wired new. This is/was a known ballast problem in some T8s. A large batch got out on the market including some via Home Depot. I can take a good portable radio tuned to an FM station outside the shop and the station goes to white noise as soon as I walk with the radio into the shop.


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## Sprinter

I may be in a unique position here.  I have only one fixture with an electronic ballast in the house or garage.  It is in the utility room where I had to replace the magnetic ballast due to failure.  All other fixtures still have original magnetic ballasts (all T12, BTW)

I just took a an AM/FM radio through them all.  I have no RFI from any fixture except the new electronic ballast, where I get substantial noise on FM channels, but much less on AM.  I get the noise on FM when the fixture is on, and it disappears when off.  All of the original fixtures are quiet on AM or FM freqs.

I didn't expect that when I replaced the ballast until this thread suggested it.

I suspect that some electronic ballasts, whether on T8 or T12 are noisy by poor design and perhaps some are better designed.


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## semipro

I've tried numerous brands and types (commercial/residential) electronic ballasts and still have RFI problems. 
Its a well documented problem without prescribed solution other than to identify the offending ballast and replace it. 
I've tried various inline filters on affected receivers without success.


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## begreen

Unfortunately in my friend's shop he has 10 of these offending ballast/fixture combos.


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## Seasoned Oak

Highbeam said:


> Yeah, 30,000 claimed from the 2$ t8 tubes. That's like 30 years at 3 hours per day.


I have about 4 T8 fixtures all purchased in the last 12 months in 2 different locations.  Every single bulb in every fixture has about 2" of black on each end. They are going downhill way faster than my old shoplights. No way ill ever see anywhere near 30000 hours ,ill be lucky to get a few hundred hours.


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## begreen

Some ballasts are harder on tubes than others depending on the start mode and output (normal vs HO).


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## Highbeam

begreen said:


> Some ballasts are harder on tubes than others depending on the start mode and output (normal vs HO).



There are many other ballast specifications. It's like buying a woodstove, many things. Ballast factor is just one of them. Also, the quality of power feeding the ballast appears to be important.

When the bulbs are rated for 30,000 or 50,000 in the case of LED, that assumes pretty ideal conditions. Probably continuous duty, temperature controlled, with constant pure power and good grounds.

Are the LEDs any more tolerant of crappy power? Who knows.


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## sportbikerider78

I got one of these for above a working area in the garage.  For $39, worth a shot.  I wanted the stupid pull string...but not in the middle.  lol

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-4-ft-White-LED-Linkable-Shop-Light-54103161/205331022


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## iamlucky13

I don't think you'll find quite as many T12 compatible LED tubes as T8 LED tubes, and few seem to specify that they work with magnetic ballasts, so I suspect you'll find yourself replacing the fixtures instead of just the tubes.

Check the rated lumens output on your lamps and choose your replacements accordingly. Don't just go based on size, as some LED's that appear to be replacements have only a fraction of the rated output.

That said, almost all LED tubular retrofits or replacement fixtures I've seen have 1/2 to 3/4 the rated lumens as the equivalent fluorescent, yet most of their reviews are good. I find this curious, but the technical questions this raises aren't particularly important, since these folks still seem satisfied. If you replace 2800 lumen tubes with 1700 lumen tubes, I suspect you'll be happy. If you replace them 1000 lumen tubes, or replace twin-tube fixtures with LED fixtures that are rated for 2000 lumens, you might be a bit disappointed.


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## Seasoned Oak

Check the lumen output as well ,the LED shop lights sams club offers for $35 list 4500  The Home Depot LED shop light For $39 lists 3200.


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## Sprinter

iamlucky13 said:


> I don't think you'll find quite as many T12 compatible LED tubes as T8 LED tubes, and few seem to specify that they work with magnetic ballasts, so I suspect you'll find yourself replacing the fixtures instead of just the tubes.


I'm finding that out, but I'm hoping to find LED T12 tubes that will work with the ballasts bypassed.  At least I'm okay for now, and the cold garage is only a  concern when it gets cold again.  Too bad.  I actually like the T12 fixtures.  I'll figure out something.  Maybe the LED fixtures will improve with time, as I would expect with such a young and ever-changing technology.


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## Sprinter

Seasoned Oak said:


> Check the lumen output as well ,the LED shop lights sams club offers for $35 list 4500  The Home Depot LED shop light For $39 lists 3200.


Doesn't lumen output pretty much depend on color?  I wonder what color name emits the most light?


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## iamlucky13

Color temperature, specified in Kelvin, is what relates to color. Lumens are separate.

Color temperature refers to the color tone an object glows at when heated to that temperature. 2700K is what normal incandescent lightbulbs glow at (often called warm white). 3000K is what many halogens glow at (sometimes called soft white). Fluorescent and LED lights are designed to mimic these behaviors, and are available in higher color temperatures. Daylight usually means anything above 5000K.

Lights in the 3500-4500K range (aka "bright white") seem to be the most popular choice for workspaces like offices and shops, I think because they appear reasonably neutral under the widest variety of circumstances - 2700K is perceived as orangish-red when compared to sunlight, where as 5000K bulbs tend to look a bit harsh and blue-toned at night.


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## begreen

Often higher color temp LEDs bulbs will have a bit higher lumen output, at least for 12v bulbs.


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## iamlucky13

begreen said:


> Often higher color temp LEDs bulbs will have a bit higher lumen output, at least for 12v bulbs.



Yep, and also usually be slightly more efficient. However, if you have two bulbs in different color temperatures, and both are rated for the same number of lumens, your ability to see should be similar in a space illuminated by either.


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## Sprinter

begreen said:


> Often higher color temp LEDs bulbs will have a bit higher lumen output, at least for 12v bulbs.


Yeah, that's what I was getting at.  The "warmer" , lower Kelvin equivalent colors always seem to me to be less bright, but I haven't looked at the numbers much to see it was just perception, or a matter of fluorescent material used.

The way fluorescents emit light in so many discrete wavelengths and with so many gaps seems to affect how the eye perceives the color and overall brightness compared to a black body spectrum, so it seems to complicate the Kelvin comparison I would think.

From what I see, LED spectrums seem to be all over the place depending on color and manufacturer.


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## iamlucky13

Yeah, I've noticed a few colors look washed out under fluorescent lights due to the numerous gaps in their spectrum. We have a moss-green paint in one bedroom, for example, that looks almost grey under fluorescent lights, but more or less as expected under LED lighting. Clearly, the primary color in that paint falls right in one of those spectral gaps, but in a slightly different shade of green, fluorescents tend to be a bit exaggerated. This graph really shows why that is:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-yxuQF3Sy_...44/R0BoSYkZN6w/s1600/cfl_spectrum_500_250.png

I've noticed a bit of weakness in LED lighting for violet and deep red colors. They sometimes look a bit bluish and pinkish-orange respectively, and fluorescents actually seem to do a hair better at these polar opposite ends of the rainbow, but you have to really pay attention to notice, and on the whole, I like LED's significantly better. High color rendering index (90+ CRI) LED's do a bit better in the reds especially, but aren't nearly as widely available. For shop lights or general area lighting, I'm pretty content with ordinary 80 CRI lights.

The spectra for LED's certainly look a lot better on the whole than for fluorescents:
http://openluna.org/wiki/images/6/63/Warm_vs_Cool_White.jpg

These spectra are almost universal for daylight and warm white bulbs. In addition to the purples and reds I mentioned, you can also see a dip in the teal region. I've not really noticed this when I compare LED's, but others might.

But again, that's generally only if paying really close attention. I try not to consider CRI except in a few specific areas like the bathroom (where you often look at yourself in the mirror - we're very perceptive to skin tones so accuracy is good there) and in the kitchen (food looks its best under good light and good light helps with detail oriented tasks).


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## Sprinter

Thanks.  All helpful info.  Stuff I haven't looked into much as far as available consumer products.  Sounds like you have a built-in spectrometer lol.   

I have seen that LED spectra are much smoother. I's good to know that differences within the daylight and warm white varieties don't vary much.


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## Sprinter

begreen said:


> Often higher color temp LEDs bulbs will have a bit higher lumen output, at least for 12v bulbs.


That reminds me.  I once bought a high-output CFL for a dark hall area several years ago just to try.  It was so intensely blue and violet, almost mercury vapor color that it was unbearable.  It did seem brighter than other 100w equivalents, but not worth the garish color.


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## Highbeam

Color temperature and lumens output have a bizarre relationship with some people. Very often you hear people say that the blue (high temp) lights are brighter because they are less yellow even when actual lumens output is the same.

I like a soft white.


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## Sprinter

Highbeam said:


> Color temperature and lumens output have a bizarre relationship with some people. Very often you hear people say that the blue (high temp) lights are brighter because they are less yellow even when actual lumens output is the same.
> 
> I like a soft white.


Fore sure.   Human color perception in the brain, and wavelength sensitivity of the cones is pretty bizarre in itself, and can certainly vary among individuals.  I suppose the fact that I perceive "warm" colors as less bright has to do with the fact that overall sensitivity falls off with longer wavelengths, with around 555 nm green at the peak for most.

The "short" cones that peak in the blue/violet wavelengths may be more sensitive in some people.  I don't know.  Just speculation.  Perception all happens in the brain anyway.


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## FTG-05

Ballast bypass T8 or T12 replacement LED tubes:  18 watts for 2000 lumens or 111 lumens per watt, pretty efficient.  Bypasses the ballast for better efficiency and eliminates electronic noise or temp lighting issues.

And it's only $10.49 per bulb.

https://www.1000bulbs.com/product/153509/PLT-10021.html


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## Highbeam

FTG-05 said:


> Ballast bypass T8 or T12 replacement LED tubes:  18 watts for 2000 lumens or 111 lumens per watt, pretty efficient.  Bypasses the ballast for better efficiency and eliminates electronic noise or temp lighting issues.
> 
> And it's only $10.49 per bulb.
> 
> https://www.1000bulbs.com/product/153509/PLT-10021.html



And since you need bulbs anyway you can subtract that 2$ off of the 8.49$.


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