# Goose accessibility thread...



## Gooserider (Apr 1, 2010)

Lots of folks have been sending me offers of help and support since my accident, and I don't know how much I can express my appreciation as I start down the long road to recovery...  This will probably lead to lots of threads in different places about different aspects of my issues, but I figure I ought to start one here in DIY to deal with the purely mechanical aspects of trying to make the house accessible to me in my current condition.  

Essentially I'm currently wheelchair confined, and paralyzed from the waist down - NOBODY knows what the future holds in the way of recovery - some folks connect back up, others don't, to varying degrees, and with varying speeds, and nobody knows just how or why...  At any rate, my rehab is based on the "worst case" assumption that I won't get any better, and I've been told to assume that in terms of any accessibility planning, etc...

It currently looks like I will probably be in rehab for another 4-6 weeks while my other injuries heal, and I learn the many skills needed to live in a wheelchair - but the insurance will only pay for a limited length of time before I'm kicked out to either go home or to a "skilled nursing facility" (aka Nursing home) depending on whether or not the house is ready for me to move in.  It is VERY much preferred for me to go home... 

So what will it take to go home?  Our current house is very pretty, but it is a difficult house at best to work on, and it will be very difficult to make it "fully" accessible - lots of different levels, and reasons why I'd like to get access to most of them.  It also needs a lot of repairs to things like siding and outside porches which aren't relevant to access questions.  OTOH, it won't be terribly difficult to make it "minimally accessible" enough to get me home.  This is what I think my immediate objective should be, with a longer term plan of deciding whether to fix this house, or trying to sell it and get a different house (i.e. a raised ranch with a walk-in basement) that would make a better "starting point" for accessibility work.

From what I've learned so far, there are two main issues that need to be addressed - redoing the bathroom and a ramp or lift to get me in and out of the house...

The kitchen and some of the other rooms might eventually need more attention, (especially depending on if we keep the house or not) but they will do for now.

Once I get my Linux box, I will be able to post what floor plans I have done on the house so far, and get Mary-Anne to take lots of pictures so you can see what we have to deal with, in the meantime folks will have to deal with my verbal descriptions...

The house was built approx 1980, and as far as I know all the fixtures, etc. are original, and mostly look it...  The main floor bathroom is relatively small, but is reasonably well laid out (I think)  All the fixtures are avacado green  :sick: and their only virtue is that the toilet is a "real" 5 gallon reliable flusher.  The bathtub is alongside the toilet, and is a fiberglass one-piece unit that has the tub and shower walls all in one unit, surrounded by badly deteriorated sheetrock (not sure if it is molded or just mildewed with lots of peeling paint, etc)  the sink is in a cabinet that is recessed into an alcove in the wall...  We did have the floor of the bathroom redone a few years ago with a nice tile that I would like to keep (and we have a fair bit of extra tiles) 

As I understand the "rules" for accessible design, the minimum that we would need to do to make the bathroom accessible would be to replace the sink with an open front style that I can roll my chair under.  However even though the house has 2.5 baths, this floor is the only one I could access so further renovation after I got home would leave me w/o a usable bath for the duration, so it makes sense to me that doing a total bathroom makeover before I got home might be a better approach...

This would mean replacing the current tub w/ one of the more modern "curbless roll-in" showers which would also deal with the rotten sheetrock, and possibly a more "friendly" toilet as well as fixing the sink....  Does this sound reasonable????

Will post more in my next on the ramp issue...

Gooserider


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## Gooserider (Apr 1, 2010)

The other big challenge that I have to deal with is getting in and out of the house with some sort of ramp or lift, or combination of the two....

The full basement of the house is about 4' down into the ground, and about 4' above.  There are several possible entrances, each posing their own challenges for accessibility.  

There are two routes that we have been looking at as likely candidates for modification, the front door and the garage.

The garage is how we primarily accessed the house, the way I dragged in the wood supply, and so on.  It would have the advantage of keeping the ramp out of the weather (including snow) and would give me access to the laundry room, but would mean an extra level change, and be a challenge in terms of making things fit.

The front door might be a challenge in terms of design, and poses obvious challenges for snow removal

will post more later - they are taking me away for an X-ray///

Gooserider


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## LLigetfa (Apr 1, 2010)

Eh, nice to see you back Goose.  Glad you cheated the reaper.  For the access ramp to the front door, a switchback design would probably be best if you have the space for it.  A lift would be better.  You want to limit the length of a run and need flat rest stops.  They make special offset hinges so that the open door doesn't impinge on the opening.

A curb-less shower enclosure is probably the way to go but a lift could also be an option.  As for the sink, you also need to consider the height, not just clearance underneath.  They do make sinks with the sanitary drain set far enough away that the trap doesn't get in your way.  Too bad you're so far away.  I'm in the process of reno'ing my bathroom so I could apply all I learned from my mistakes.


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## daveswoodhauler (Apr 1, 2010)

Goose - Thanks for posting on layout and setup of your house.
When our good friend became confined to a wheelchair a few years back, they used the garage as the main entrance for the same purposes that you had related.
For the garage, they installed was a small lift, similar to that you would find on the rear of a moving truck, and this allowed my friend wheelchair access to from the garage into the kitchen area. A ramp was not in the cards in the garage due to space, and I am thinking your position might be the same.  This small lift in the garage kept the normal flow of traffic to what they were used to, and allowed them protection during access during the wintertime months. Try to keep the route from the exit from the car into the house as short as possible.
They had to make some modifications to the entrance between the garage into the kitchen, but that wasn't terribly bad as they just opened up the current doorway and installed a larger door, etc.. If you currently use this way for access now, I'd try to keep it the same for you and Mary-Ann.
Will be nice when we can see a layout, and try to include any elevation changes, as it sounds like you have a few on your hands.
Baby steps, right ?


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## Bobbin (Apr 1, 2010)

Hi Goose, 

Nice to see you back and I'll bet you're glad to be back!  Last summer we finally got around to replacing the porcelain enamelled, cast iron tub and the 18 yr. old "temporary" plastic surround that enabled us to get an occupancy permit when we built this joint.  We could count the number of "baths" we took in that tub on about 2 fingers, lol.  So, out it went! (with some sweating and swearing).  We replaced it with a fibreglass shower floor (Kohler from Orange, about $600).  While not curbless it is just terrific, should have  done it ages ago.  I'd wager curbless models for retrofits are available, too.  We put up blue board (whatever the stuff is for tile in tub/shower surrounds) and my brother and I tiled it.  Came out great.  

I cared for my frail elderly mother for nearly 4 yrs. and I have some thoughts to offer on your bathroom:
1.)  you have to be safe!  Everything you do to that room should be done for your safety and comfort.  
2.)  fixtures have to work for you and make it EASY to for you to use them.
3.)  think grab rails! you can never have too many.  Go out on the web and plug in Mr. Grab bar or Mr. Grab rail (I can't remember the site right now).  I bought several from that site.  The founder is a physical therapist and there is a huge assortment of styles and grips.  Great site.  
4.)  since you will be rehabbing the john, and removing the tub enclosure this is the time to put in the proper blocking to support the grab rails securely; this is critical. And you should only err on the side of too much blocking!  While the renovation is under way take lots of pictures so you can refer back to them to "jog your memory" of where all that fabulous blocking is; great "back up" for written notes or blueprints! 
5.)  shower seat.  A must have; we installed a fold down model in our new shower and it's great.  Not cheap, but well worth the dough, remember the blocking! Our's is phenolic white/stainless and was about $250, if I remember accurately.  
6.)  Hand held shower head; if you can swing it it would be helpful to have a have the shower head located near the shower seat, so you can easily reach and dial in the temperature water you desire and you don't have to let gallons of water run down the drain when you don't want to.  If the shower area is on an outside wall this may not be adviseable or easy to accomplish.  
7.)  Toilet; get a high one.  They are worth every penny.  We have a crappy Kohler that doesn't flush for a -hit, and an American Standard that is pretty effective at making the brown stuff go away.  Look at Totos, too.  A friend has one and says it damn near sucks the brown stuff out of him... .  Lol.


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## Gooserider (Apr 1, 2010)

Thanks for all the advice so far, it matches up quite well with what I've gotten from folks here...  Hope to start getting pictures and floor plans this weekend...  Craig's loaner is good, but I want to get my own machine up so that I can get my usual photo software running on it and so forth...  It will also let me get my CAD software copied over and upload the floor plans I've made...  

Not sure what else I can add to the info on the bathroom - but nothing anyone has mentioned sounds like it will be a problem.  Only thing I can think of is the question of how hard it will be to keep the existing floor while getting enough slope for a curbless shower to drain properly, but I think that only needs an inch or two, so it should be possible, even if I have to add a bunch of extra sistering on the rafters under where the tub is now...  One of the other suggestions I've seen is that it is best to use an extra large 3" drain in the floor as it allows faster draining and easier cleanup in the case of "accidents" (which can be a problem w/ spinal injuries)  I think there is reasonably good access to the plumbing as well, nothing in outside walls.

For the ramp - more details...  To go in through the garage, I have to go up about 4' to get from the garage floor to the laundry room.  There are then about 3 steps (about 2') to get from the laundry room to the living room.  The laundry room has a pretty high ceiling (9-10') so it might be possible to raise the floor of the laundry room, though that would have the minor challenge of dealing with the plumbing for the washer and outside hose bibs, plus the gas dryer, and making the window heights look right, and all that.  However it would keep the entrance out of the weather, and deal with the question of how to handle things like snow removal (I'm thinking the best approach to that might be a lawn tractor w/ a snowblower attachment and some hand controls?)

If we did decide the front door would be a better approach, it would be easier in some ways and harder in others...  The current setup has a set of concrete steps going up to a front porch at the same level as the laundry room, making a left turn and then up a couple more steps to the end of the porch, where you go to the right and in a 3-4' deep alcove to the front door.  A ramp could come straight out of the alcove, and either take a turn as soon as it cleared the edge of the porch and go over the steps (there are some railings that would need to be removed) and run down the side of the house and garage, OR go out 5-10 feet from the house, turn and make the same sort of turn after clearing the staircase.  Either option would have to deal with various landscaping issues, walks, and such, but would be doable, and was my first thought.  (Tim was the one to suggest the garage...) 

Will see what happens...

Gooserider


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## LLigetfa (Apr 2, 2010)

I saw an episode of Holmes on Homes where they made a shower wheelchair accessible.  To keep the water in the shower, they put down a rubber curb that flattens under the wheel and pops back up.

http://www.barrierfree.org/product/index.aspx?categoryid=52&productid=197


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## smokinj (Apr 2, 2010)

LLigetfa said:
			
		

> I saw an episode of Holmes on Homes where they made a shower wheelchair accessible.  To keep the water in the shower, they put down a rubber curb that flattens under the wheel and pops back up.
> 
> http://www.barrierfree.org/product/index.aspx?categoryid=52&productid=197



I seen that one very slick product.


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## Shari (Apr 2, 2010)

Goose,

At that same link provided above, check out the automatic door openers.  Also, talk to someone and find out the minimum radius you need to turn your wheelchair around.  You will need this in the bathroom - or at least the 'code enforcers' will probably check this before they let you come home - been there, done that.  

Our son was in a wheelchair & then leg braces/forearm crutches for years - his biggest indoor problem was carpeting & rugs.  Carpeting bogged down his wheelchair, rugs slipped out from under his crutches.

Wheelchairs:  Have you checked out the wheelchairs the 'rise up' so you are almost at a standing height?  Awesome technology there.  I'm not positive, but maybe if you have this type of wheelchair those 'code enforcers' would not require as much home remodeling before you come home.

If you need a Hoyer lift for anything at home, check out the local nursing homes for a used model.  I think they have to replace theirs every year or so for insurance purposes even though nothing is wrong with them.  (Frankly, we have one here that I have even used for picking up large rounds for the splitter or to get rounds into our trailer - so they even have other uses after you heal!)

Financial:  Check out disability social security.  (My hubby is on this.)  Sometimes it's hard to get, other times it's not so hard to get it - depends on your health issue.  If you haven't already checked into this, do it now as it does take 6 months after qualified application to actually begin to receive benefits.

Think positive thoughts every day! 

Shari


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## jebatty (Apr 2, 2010)

Goose - it's difficult even to imagine dealing with the issues you now face, and I praise you for your attitude in dealing with these in a very practical way. Ups and downs, literally and figuratively, likely will face you for quite awhile. 

Also, a positive from your experience is a lesson for now very healthy adults who may never even consider a future disability. We all need to consider future disability, both in buying homes and in remodeling the homes we have.

My best wishes to you, and I'm glad so many Hearth.com forum participants stepped up to help you. Please don't be bashful, personally or through a proxy, to let us know if there is more that we can do.


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## firefighterjake (Apr 2, 2010)

Goose . . . I'm afraid I don't have much solid advice to offer . . . quite frankly when it comes to construction the wife is the brains of the outfit here . . . I just do the heavy lifting.

But what I wanted to say, or rather echo, was JEbatty's thread . . . you don't know how good it is to have you back . . . and how encouraging it is to know you're doing well and improving in both mind and body . . . I cannot imagine what you're going through now . . . but your perserverance is inspiring.


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## Jags (Apr 2, 2010)

One thought - during the bath reconstruction, if the sheetrock is coming down, have a 2x6 or 2x8 nailed between EACH stud at the height that a standard grab rail would be mounted.  Knowing that this "backing" is there will allow you to add/move/install a grab rail or multiple grab rails anywhere, any time at the proper height.


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## mgwmgw (Apr 2, 2010)

Goose and I have discussed redoing the bathroom,
and I am not completely convinced it would need to be
redone before he gets here.

How long would a bathroom be impossible to use
while it is being reconstructed?

If we just have to complete the ramp or lift
before he gets home, that maximizes his ability
to discuss and supervise whatever else we do.
But he cannot live without a bathroom for long.

What happens for people with residences which
have only one bathroom?

Mary-Anne


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## Bobbin (Apr 2, 2010)

I know how much you want Goose. to be home.  I felt the same way about Mum when she was incarcerated in that dreadful place that was supposed to prepare her for life back "at home".  (They did virtually nothing to prepare her and wanted her to stay as long as possible because she was a Medicare patient!).

You HAVE TO HAVE AN EASILY ACCESSIBLE BATHROOM.  Nothing will work until you have this most necessary room ready and waiting for the first visit by the guest of honor.  I know you don't want to read this, but I know from whence I speak and I hope Shari will add her voice to mine on this topic.  There are no short cuts on this count, Mary Anne.  (though I wish there were).  

Goose., you have been dealt a bum hand.  But you now have to play that hand to the best of your ability.  You have to have an easily accessible and useful bathroom, this is a basic necessity and sadly, there are no shortcuts.  Your present condition dicatates certain needs and if they can't be easily met "at home" you will be better served following the regimen and working on new skills at the rehab. hospital.  Patience.  It will pay dividends long term... but you have to permit yourself to believe that.


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## mgwmgw (Apr 2, 2010)

It is not only that I want Goose home,
which I do.  Of course.
It is also that we are discussing
whether to sell this house
and move.  If that happens, 
the less we spend
on this house, the more we can spend
on the new one.

I am unemployed.
Resources are limited.
Nobody in their right mind
would give an unemployed
person a mortgage in this market.

We have a shower above a bathtub.
If Goose can move himself onto a bath
chair in that tub, then that suffices.
Not optimally, but maybe well enough
if we're going to move soon.
If he cannot move himself in that way,
then the bathroom may be the least of
our problems.  How would he get into
and out of a bed?


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## Bobbin (Apr 2, 2010)

I am so sorry you two are facing this awful choice.  I don't know what to offer as counsel.  

But you need to have a fully accessible and functional bathroom before Goose. can come home.  And hospitals can refuse to "release" a patient if they know they know the circumstances "at home" are inadequate for the pateient's needs.  

Hoping others will chime in with their (huge) collective knowledge... 

Hang tough, Mary Anne.  I know there will be more in the offing!


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## Backwoods Savage (Apr 2, 2010)

Goose, you have no idea how great it is to have you posting again and know that you are on the road to recovery. It surely made my day just seeing you post. 

You do have a tough and rough road ahead but nothing that cannot be solved. You also have many, many friends who are willing to help however they can. I'll not add anything to what has already been posted because there have been some very good posts. I also agree with Mary-Anne that some decisions should be made before too many dollars are thrown into the house. Whatever you do or however you go, think it out good BEFORE starting. We wish you well, my friend.


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## LLigetfa (Apr 2, 2010)

There are many different styles of patient lifts for getting in and out of an existing tub or bed etc.

http://www.planetmobility.com/store/paitentlifts/index.html

They also make lifting chairs that go right inside the tub.

http://www.myhomeforlife.com/bath_lifts_s/3.htm


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## Dune (Apr 3, 2010)

Goose, two things. Can medicare or insurance or something pay for a lift in your garage? If so, that may be the best bet. If you go the ramp route, you will need one linear foot of ramp for each inch of rise, plus landings. Four feet up to the door is 48 plus feet of ramp.
   Second, if you need help moving plumbing, let me know. My brother is a master plumber in this state and I was his aprentice for many years. We can even pull a permit if need be. Also, if your renovations require metalwork, I will be glad to help. I make and install miles of railings.


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## mgwmgw (Apr 3, 2010)

The sink in the main floor bathroom is not accessible.
We will need to replace it with a sink that Goose
can fit his knees under, even if we eventually move.
I am not sure how much plumbing that will require.
If we replace the bathtub and shower,
that may also need plumbing work.


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## Tony H (Apr 4, 2010)

It's great to see you are back in action at the keyboard. We had some similar issues a few years back with my Father COPD and broke his foot and fell breaking his wrist. We found the hospital has some wonderfull people in a home rehab department and they came out to the house and looked at the situation in the bathroom . the house was a one story ranch with one 6" stair at the front door but all clear otherwise. The situation was different but maybe you can get some similar help with your bathroom they had all the requirements as well as the most cost effective solutions to get the bath modified and since it was a single bath house the mods had to be made before Dad could come home. 
Good luck with your future .
Tony


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## begreen (Apr 4, 2010)

I can see how this is a big challenge and requires some good thought. Some houses adapt easier than others for handicap retrofit. 

Usually I start on a project like this with a simple spreadsheet or a handwritten table that defines the scope of the project. It lists the tasks, cost of each task, time it will take, then pros and the cons. It could be that retrofitting the house will be fairly reasonable if you can get donations of labor and materials. However, the bathroom retrofit will take a bit more work. If there is tiling involved, there has to be time added for thinset and grout drying. Or it could be that the bottom line just doesn't make sense if all the doorways are narrow and a new building is needed to store everything that is in the garage now. Try to take a very detached perspective in order to decide what is best for say the next 5 years. 

If you do decide to renovate, what are your resources? Look at both your own finances and what the community can offer. In our local area several organizations and companies have one-day house renovation blitzes organized for those in need. I have worked on one called Christmas in April. We showed up early with a team of about 25 people. By end of day we had repainted the exterior of the house and 3 interior rooms. We renovated a bathroom, dig several minor repairs, laid carpet in the living room, fixed multiple wiring problems, cleaned up the yard, planted some nice new plants and hauled away a large truckload of old crap to the dump. It's pretty amazing what a well organized team can accomplish in a day. 

If you do decide to stay in the current house, how much can you call on your community, church, or local friends for this kind of event? By when would you really be ready to start? How much will need to be moved out of the way before work can start? How much help can found for Mary-Anne to get things cleared out and prepared for a blitz?

I'm coming out east for a memorial service at the end of May. If it will help, I could spend a couple days helping and can bring hand tools. The better things are organized in advanced, the more that can be accomplished. Let me know what you think.

PS: In order to make an objective and informed decision, I would also meet with a good realtor to get a professional and realistic opinion of what what the options are. Ideally this would be a person you know and trust.


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## mgwmgw (Apr 4, 2010)

Excellent questions.
I cannot answer most of them
yet.  Working on it.

There is tiling involved.

I am already working on
getting the house ready.
It is WAY cluttered, 
and I am putting things in 
boxes, with the idea of having 
a chain of people pass boxes up
to some attic space which I do 
not expect to be involved
in what needs retrofitting.

I am also putting lots of papers
into recycle containers.

As to whether we stay or move,
in the short run, we stay.
One cannot buy a house that fast.
Unless Arthur needs ongoing care,
we stay.

That means we must solve
the problem of getting into the house
and the problem of the bathroom.
Whether the doors are wide enough
will need to be measured.
We can remove inside doors to make the
opening wider temporarily.

Goose is expected to be ready to come
home in May, maybe early May.
This date can change.

In the longer run, maybe months,
maybe longer,
we will need to decide about staying
or moving, and then your spreadsheet
idea is the best idea.
At that time Goose will be home.

I will be calling the case manager this
week, to ask about getting Goose onto
Medicaid, and to ask if some mobility 
expert should visit our home to give advice.


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## begreen (Apr 4, 2010)

LOL, when the garage entrance was mentioned as a possibility, I thought of my garage. It would take several days to clear out all the crap I have in there. Hoping to make a dent into that mess some time this summer. 

It sounds like a good first step will be measuring the doorways that Goose will need to navigate. The standard wheelchair is about 26" wide. To allow for hand clearance it would be best to have at least 3" clearance on each side or a minimum 32" doorway. Doors can be removed from the interior temporarily, but not for the exterior entrance. Fortunately most primary entrance doors are 32-36" wide. If you can post pictures of the two entrance possibilities from inside and outside that would help visualize the possibilities and challenges that each presents.


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## tmhrrgn (Apr 4, 2010)

MY All
I am the friend that was with Goose the day of the accident and the one who lifted the log off of him. I am also in part organizing the retrofit of their home. One of the Ideas I am thinking of is to try to build everything inside there home so that Goose has the most access to the house. I still need to take some measurements to figure that if we can fit a ramp into the garage and still have some workable space, also if there will be enough room in the Laundry room to put a ramp into the main level. As for the bathroom I know I do not have the skill set to that myself but I still know what needs to be done. I am thinking that if we can get enough people to help in one day we could split us up into teams to tackle each space separately and get as much done at one time. We are currently burning time on this so later this month we could set the date for the work day.

Tim Harrigan


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## begreen (Apr 4, 2010)

Welcome Tim. Thanks for logging in. Good to have you on board. 

My understanding is a garage approach ramp that goes up 48" will require 48ft of 36" wide ramp + adequate landing spaces for the switchbacks. I suspect it will dominate the garage. (Is this a single or 2 car garage?) If the laundry room doorways are 30", this may be the more difficult plan. It may be faster to do the exterior ramp to the main door which hopefully is at least 32" wide. That will take care of the immediate need. Then, it could be covered for better winter accessibility. Of course this is assuming there aren't other complicating factors with a front entrance approach. 

The key to any project is organization. This means having adequate materials and tools already at hand before the work starts. Crew tasks should be broken down into manageable chunks. Be sure to have folks with adequate skills on hand. That will likely mean someone with plumbing and electrical skills. And someone with tiling skills. Be sure to have realistic time estimates and not too many bodies on any specific task.


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## Dune (Apr 4, 2010)

Tim, P.M. me when you are ready.


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## tmhrrgn (Apr 5, 2010)

Dune 
Thanks for the help I am thinking of doing this in a work party weekend as for the weekend it most likely be the weekend of the Apr.23 through the 25th considering that some of the things that need to be done needs a considerable amount of time to set. I am planning on getting measurements this Saturday. The 23rd works for me because I work every other weekend and that is my other weekend off for this month and looking at the time for goose to come home.

Tim


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## Gooserider (Apr 6, 2010)

Well it is not working perfectly, but I have the new Linux machine sort of working now though I still need to do some more to it (like figure out why I'm having trouble getting Firefox to start on it, currently using Konqueror which I don't like as a browser)

Looks like Tim and co will be doing measurements and photos (Take as many as possible and post them) this weekend and planning can happen after that... I also would suggest doing a search through some of my past posts, I know I've posted a bunch of house photos from different angles at various times in the past in assorted threads...  Those who are also members of Trouble-free pool, and some of the other sites that I'm also on might also find photos there (I use the same handle every where I go...)

Feel free to consolidate them or post links, etc.

Far as I can see from here, the two priority tasks are the bathroom redo, and the ramp to get me in.  Of the two, I'd say the bathroom is the more time critical - a ramp can be built pretty fast if one isn't overly fussy about it (especially if doing the front door) but it will take time to allow tile and grout to dry and other such things to happen in the bathroom...

I did have a nice chat on the phone this evening w/ BeGreen, and he did point out that one of the things that might be important to look at is the pitch of the existing tile floor in the bathroom, as the entire floor really should have a pitch in the general direction of the tub drain or there will be future problems w/ the floor and walls from any water that gets out onto the main floor...  If necessesary that may require junking the existing tiles, which I don't see as a huge problem if that is what it takes...

Gooserider


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## woodsmaster (Apr 6, 2010)

Mary-Anne said:
			
		

> Goose and I have discussed redoing the bathroom,
> and I am not completely convinced it would need to be
> redone before he gets here.
> 
> ...



I would say you need to count on the bath being down for a week. there is a lot of work and steps to remodeling a bath. They are small but time consuming and expensive. If you hire work done get time frame in the contract.
If you can get volunters try to orginize by trades best you can and it very well may take longer than a week. It is posibble to do in a couple days but not likely. The reality shows make it look easy. Wish I were closer to help.
Best wishes to both of you and hopefully a full recovery.


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## begreen (Apr 6, 2010)

It was good talking with you today Goose. I'm looking forward to meeting you in person. 

Here's a couple shots I got off of hearth.com threads. The first is a front view of the house. The second a back entry that's not ideal for access from a wheelchair due to various obstructions in the path.


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## firefighterjake (Apr 6, 2010)

woodsmaster said:
			
		

> Mary-Anne said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm thinking you should be able to remodel that entire bathroom in about 30 minutes . . . and that's including the three 3-minute bathroom/snack breaks in that half hour.


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## kenny chaos (Apr 6, 2010)

Could it be the famous Professor Tim Harrigan by any chance?


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## mgwmgw (Apr 6, 2010)

No, Tim is not a professor.
He works for a yogurt factory
and teaches karate.


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## Jags (Apr 6, 2010)

Mary-Anne said:
			
		

> No, Tim is not a professor.
> He works for a yogurt factory
> and teaches karate.



....and is obviously a pretty good egg.


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## mgwmgw (Apr 6, 2010)

As you say, 
Tim is a good egg,
and he is also an excellent cook.


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## webbie (Apr 7, 2010)

Although my knowledge of accessibility issues is limited, I can offer the following to the conversation:
Hearth.com (me and I) insist on buying every pizza, soda, bottle of juice, sandwich and beer for any volunteer effort which may be forthcoming.

I hereby assign Tim, since he is the cook, to coordinate that part when and if these union dudes or other hearth.com members head that way.

Tim, PM me when something get's planned - or just spend up and send me the total afterwards. 

Beer is only for after the power tools are put away. Maybe Goose can be talked out of one of his vintage bottles too!


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## leaddog (Apr 7, 2010)

I've been thinking about your getting in and out of the house and wonder if you could do something like this. My son had an elevator in his house that we removed. It was a very simple thing. It was run with a Budget 1 ton chain fall. It had the elect hooked up with sw. etc but you could run it with the three button box. It was a cage that was suported in the corners with channel iron with cam rollors to keep it steady. It wouldn't take up much room in the garage, out of the weather, and quite simple to build. It would be safe as those chain falls lock and only move if you push the bottons. they have a fast and very slow speed. I wish I hadn't sold it as I would have donated it but if you go that way maybe someone has one. A metal cage could be welded up quite easily. Just an idea.
leaddog


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## mgwmgw (Apr 7, 2010)

I love the idea of an elevator.  I looked into the price some days ago and they are not cheap if we buy them ready made.  About $30,000.  There is a location where an elevator would make sense if anyone thinks that they can make one.

If the elevator is powered by electricity, we would need a solution of what to do if power failed, which it does every other year or so here, not typically for long enough for the freezer to melt, but long enough that Goose would not want to be stuck in a box.

We have natural gas in the house, and could install a natural gas powered generator without having to worry about storing fuel, but that would cost extra.

So an elevator would be good, but ramps would be much less expensive.  I verified this cost difference with Goose's case manager.

Tim found an open platform lift for $4000, so if we have enough distance in the laundry area to get a ramp from the garage to the living room, then replacing the garage stairs with a lift might be possible.  While power failures would still be a problem, an open platform would allow for an easier rescue.  I guess Goose would want to keep a cell phone on his person, which is likely a good idea anyway.

While Tim is an excellent cook, I am more familiar with the food that is available locally, since Tim lives across the state line some distance away.  Tim knows more about construction than I do.  Especially, his family created a ramp for his father some years ago, out of wood and with great success.  I would want to make use of whatever they learned from that.

So I would prefer that Tim concentrate on construction matters than food.  When we have an idea of how many pizzas we need, I can discuss with Web what that food plan should be.  My favorite local pizza source will deliver if that is an issue, and gives discounts for buying larger quantities.  I am glad Web mentioned drinks.  I had not thought about that.  I am guessing that cold water is best while folks work, and choice of beer, soda or sport drink afterward.

I have discovered that F.W. Webb has an accessible bathroom showroom in Methuen MA, which is not far from here.  While that may or may not be the cheapest source, they might be more likely to have things in stock.  Tim used to work at Home Depot, and he checked there and found out that accessible fixtures would need to be ordered and take a week or so to get.  There are also Lowes stores not far from here.  Feedback on plumbing sources would be useful.


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## begreen (Apr 7, 2010)

I would think a wall hung sink would work well for wheelchair access. If not available at local plumbing supplies, I wonder about used fixtures in the more urban areas close by?


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## kenny chaos (Apr 7, 2010)

Mary Ann mentioned Gooze carrying a cellphone.
The medical alert phone thingys where you wear a pendant work well.
Yes, another cost, but it's just an idea.
My folks had one and they kept the base unit in a central location and when they hit the button on their pendant, someone would answer and
ask what they needed and the folks could request a call to one of their children or whatever they needed
instead of every prearranged number being called.  (not to be used for pizza delivery)
It was real slick.  It cost about $30/month.


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## mgwmgw (Apr 7, 2010)

Goose currently has a bicycle water bottle clamped to his wheelchair.
I would not be surprised if it wanted his cell phone attached
in the same way.  I am not sure how he would feel about
something around his neck.


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## Backwoods Savage (Apr 7, 2010)

Mary-Anne, do not hesitate to ask for some discounts at Lowe's and Home Depot and any other place you shop for material. Be sure to tell them what the project is too as they may give even bigger discounts than you suspect.  Good luck.


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## leaddog (Apr 7, 2010)

Mary-Anne said:
			
		

> I love the idea of an elevator.  I looked into the price some days ago and they are not cheap if we buy them ready made.  About $30,000.  There is a location where an elevator would make sense if anyone thinks that they can make one.
> 
> If the elevator is powered by electricity, we would need a solution of what to do if power failed, which it does every other year or so here, not typically for long enough for the freezer to melt, but long enough that Goose would not want to be stuck in a box.
> 
> ...



If there is someone that is local that is handy with welding I think a elevator could be fab'd up farily resonable. It could be an open cage and lifted with a Budget chain fall or simulor. The big factor is how much head room you have above. The chainfall doesn't need much room but you need room to raise and lower and have enough head room. You could power it with a invertor in case of a elect failure but a gen would be a better choice.  The chainfall controls are just a push botton box with four bottons. up, jog, down jog so you can stop it right were you want it. They are used in alot of machine shops and there might even be a co. that would donate one. A hyd. lift is also a posibility but that also depends on how high you have to lift. Check with some truck repair and salvage shops as they might have some that they have taken off delivery trucks. Those run 12v or 24v so it would be easy to run in case of a power failure.
leaddog


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## NWfuel (Apr 7, 2010)

leaddog said:
			
		

> Mary-Anne said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I was thinking the same thing. They are called Rail Lifts (5,000lb) There are also lift gates but would require a pit to install into for level entry. The Rail lift would mount to the wall and floor with 2 posts and a cage could be welded to it. Check with Penske truck rental or similar company. They are selling the whole trucks right now for 10-15,000 dollars and might have a bad truck with a good lift. The older style lifts are 7' wide and 6' deep so plenty of room to turn on. They will have a 4' travel from floor up.
Thomas
leaddog


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## kenny chaos (Apr 7, 2010)

I wonder what the town would think about a jury rigged elevator for a handicapped person.
If the town is not involved, I think it's a great idea.


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## mgwmgw (Apr 7, 2010)

Goose is involved in town politics, and various committees he is on know about his accident.  I have not filed any paperwork for permits yet.  I feel that I should ask advice before I do that.

I have been to the F.W. Webb accessible showroom, and this is what I learned and have figured out, more from looking than because they told me.

One can put a sink recessed into a counter in the normal way.  That is what we have.
One can have the sink stick out of the front of the counter.
One can have a flatter wider shallower sink sit mostly on top of the counter.
One can hang the back of the sink from a wall.
All of these options are available in accessible designs.

An advantage of hanging the sink is that it is easier to adjust the height from the floor.
Closets, even if they sit beside a knee space, tend to come in standard heights.
A disadvantage of a wall hung sink is that the sink is less strong if one leans upon it, and hanging sinks have been known to come loose if one leans upon the front of them.  I have done this.
Some of the hanging sinks have extra wide edges around them, to use like counter space.


Most normal sinks are bowl shaped or shaped like an inverted round pyramid with the drain more or less in the middle.
One difference between accessible sinks and normal sinks is where the drain is located relative to the front edge of the sink.  The drain is not in the middle, but further back.
If the drain is too far forward, then the wheelchair rider will hit it with their knees.

Goose tends to store a lot of stuff around the bathroom sink, more than I do, so I think he would prefer to retain a counter around the sink if possible.  I am not especially fond of the counter surface we have, so if we need to replace it I will not be sorry.  I expect he feels the same way.

Where the front edge of the sink needs to be relative to the rider depends on how long their arms are and how far they can lean forward.
Goose's arms are normal length, and he can move them in the normal way, but the degree of paraplegia offers challenges in his "trunk control" so he is learning to lean more than he could at the beginning.

Since we do not plan to change the kitchen right away, the bathroom sink may do double duty as a kitchen surface when Goose is cooking.  This may mean we want a bigger sink than otherwise.  Also, we will be losing the bathtub, so having a big sink gives us a place to wash big things in, which is generally a good idea.  Thus, my inclination is to get a big sink that sticks out of the front of the counter, and to put narrow legs of some kind either side of the knee space and not rely only on the wall to hold up the sink.

Prices of sinks at F.W. Webb range from small number of hundreds to over $1000.  I plan to choose an option less than $1000, and I think we can find one.

Our bathroom fixtures are a shade of green which I do not believe that we can match.  The toilet seat has been white for years and that looks okay, and some shelves are white, so a white sink or a stainless steel sink should look sufficient from a color match point of view.  The sinks they displayed were almost all white.


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## begreen (Apr 7, 2010)

NW Fuels said:
			
		

> leaddog said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, I was wondering about a modified electric appliance lift. If it was bolted down and had a bit larger stage added to it with a safety rim on it, then Goose could run the control from the lift. It would be battery operated and therefore able to work during and outage. 

http://industrial-equipment.badgerie.com/trucks.html#

Maybe not, these are expensive and AC powered. But a modified manual appliance lift maybe?


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## mgwmgw (Apr 7, 2010)

Tim will be measuring the heights of things, but let me see if I can describe how many levels this house has.
Ignoring attic spaces it has, lowest first:
basement rooms and half bath and circuit breaker box level- below ground
ground/garage level (a second circuit breaker box at this level)
laundry room higher than garage
living room, kitchen, 2 offices (1 will become a bedroom), full bath
master bedroom suite (which will become an office) with full bath

The most likely choices for getting into the house would be
1. ground level to living room level by way of the front door with a ramp mostly outdoors
2. garage level to laundry room by way of one doorway, and then laundry room level to living room, by way of second doorway, using ramps and/or lifts entirely indoors.
3. raise the floor of the laundry room to be even with the living room, and then put a lift into the garage to get up to that level, not sure if the laundry room ceiling is high enough to do this.

The laundry room is long and narrow, but I suspect that it is not long enough to supply one foot per inch of rise to put a ramp going through it to get from the laundry room level to the living room level


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## LLigetfa (Apr 7, 2010)

I was thinking of an automotive style wheelchair lift for the garage and laundry rooms.  They are designed to run on 12V battery so a power failure would not be a problem.


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## tmhrrgn (Apr 7, 2010)

Hi All
I would rather go with something purpose built for this than to modify something that was not made to do the task.

Tim


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## Jags (Apr 7, 2010)

tmhrrgn said:
			
		

> Hi All
> I would rather go with something purpose built for this than to modify something that was not made to do the task.
> 
> Tim



Hmmm....I'm thinking this:


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## begreen (Apr 7, 2010)

No problem Tim. This is just process thinking. It helps to think out lots of options before the hammers start pounding, even if 90% of the ideas get tossed out.


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## begreen (Apr 7, 2010)

Jags said:
			
		

> tmhrrgn said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I like it, mentioned awhile back. Seems like with a trailer behind it, Goose could move a lot of wood.


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## kenny chaos (Apr 7, 2010)

If you go to Google Images and search for "wheelchair lift," you'll get lots of real good ideas what's available, real quick.
You can then do the same for "wheelchair sink."


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## Jags (Apr 7, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Jags said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Maybe we could mount a mower deck on the front and get his butt back to work. ;-) 

Sorry for the left turn folks, sometimes a little "jest" is good for the heart.


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## kenny chaos (Apr 7, 2010)

Here's an idea the union guys could build: http://blog.creativetherapies.com/wp-content/uploads/wheelchair-lift.jpg


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## begreen (Apr 7, 2010)

This website has a good listing of options together with pricing info:
http://www.acessinc.com/wheelchair_porch_lifts.htm

Simple suggestions to make a place more wheelchair friendly:
http://www.ehow.com/how_4889_make-simple-wheelchair.html

Some bathroom pictures for ideas:
http://seniorhousesolutions.com/handicap-bathrooms.php

Massachussetts low cost loan program for home modifications to accommodate the handicapped:
http://tinyurl.com/yhucwvs

Also, Tim, maybe see if you can borrow or rent a wheelchair for a day while you are there. Try it out through the house to check out turning radius, clearances etc.


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## mgwmgw (Apr 7, 2010)

This is the sink we have.  It is between 2 walls  There is a cupboard beneath it.
The left picture of BEGreen's post is what I meant by a sink that sticks out of the front of the counter.
I like that.


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## mgwmgw (Apr 7, 2010)

I think that I have identified the "sticking out" sink in the left picture.
It is a Kohler K-2098-4-0
and there is one for sale on ebay for $150 plus $30 shipping.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Kohler-Bathroom...cmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Sinks?hash=item20b052943d


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## LLigetfa (Apr 8, 2010)

Yes, that one has the drain offset to the side and back.


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## begreen (Apr 8, 2010)

I like it too Mary-Anne. Looks like you might be able to use the current faucet set with it. How wide is the current cabinet top?


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## mgwmgw (Apr 8, 2010)

If I understand how this works, the sink comes in both 4 and 8 inch varieties,
and the faucets we have are 4 inch, so we can use them.
The counter is about 35 inches wide by about 23 inches deep.
The Kohler sink is 26-1/4" x 20-1/8"


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## begreen (Apr 8, 2010)

That will work. The side counters will be narrow, so may be a shallow shelf on each side, about 10" above the counter will provide a location for some items. A medicine cabinet could be added to store things that are only occasionally needed.


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## mgwmgw (Apr 8, 2010)

On the phone the other day, Tim suggested that instead of putting tiles all the way up the wall, we could cover the wall with a vinyl back splash sheet, a shower or bathtub surround.

Does anyone have an opinion about which option would be better and whether there are reasons to do one or the other?


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## daveswoodhauler (Apr 8, 2010)

Mary-Anne said:
			
		

> On the phone the other day, Tim suggested that instead of putting tiles all the way up the wall, we could cover the wall with a vinyl back splash sheet, a shower or bathtub surround.
> 
> Does anyone have an opinion about which option would be better and whether there are reasons to do one or the other?



I think it would be much more cost effective to put in a tub surround or vinyl sheet vs tile, unless the tile work is going to be donated labor.


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## Flatbedford (Apr 8, 2010)

kenny chaos said:
			
		

> I wonder what the town would think about a jury rigged elevator for a handicapped person.
> If the town is not involved, I think it's a great idea.



What he said. I don't think some kind of jury rigged thing would be a proper, safe solution. The lift will be Goose's only point of entry/exit and has to be reliable and safe and something that he can confidently operate alone. I don't think it is something to mess around with.


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## daveswoodhauler (Apr 8, 2010)

Flatbedford said:
			
		

> kenny chaos said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



+10  I am sure that the hearth members could make something pretty cool, but life safety is not something you want to mess with.


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## begreen (Apr 8, 2010)

Mary-Anne said:
			
		

> On the phone the other day, Tim suggested that instead of putting tiles all the way up the wall, we could cover the wall with a vinyl back splash sheet, a shower or bathtub surround.
> 
> Does anyone have an opinion about which option would be better and whether there are reasons to do one or the other?



There are acrylic surround panels made just for this purpose. They work well as long as they are not cleaned with an abrasive. However, I think the main issue is not the walls, it is the shower pan itself. You might want to look at some of these options if looking for a quick installation:

http://www.acessinc.com/ADA_Showers.htm


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## mgwmgw (Apr 9, 2010)

I was assuming that we would not use a "shower pan" at all.  I assumed that we would just tile the floor with something not slippery, and tile the shower floor the same way.  There would be an edge between the shower and the floor, which the wheelchair would compress when it rolls over the edge.

I talked with Goose earlier today, and what he wants has just gotten 2 notches more complex than what I had been thinking about.

First, he does not want to use a shower surround, not because it would not work, but he wants us to indent shelves between the studs behind the shower, in the space of the wall between the shower and the next room.

Second, he wants us to redo the entire bathroom floor, which was new just a few years ago, because water will certainly leak from the roll-in shower, and we need to tilt the floor so all the water runs into the shower drain.  How this gets past the edge of the shower is unclear to me, but that is what he wants.


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## mgwmgw (Apr 9, 2010)

I asked Goose about jury rigged solutions, and he agreed with me that what we do before he comes home should include permits and keep Tim in a safe situation.  What we create after he gets home, if we stay in the house, has room for further creativity.  Among other things, if we have a conservative solution to the essentials then if something else temporarily breaks we can live with that more easily.


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## Dune (Apr 9, 2010)

Mary-Anne said:
			
		

> I was assuming that we would not use a "shower pan" at all.  I assumed that we would just tile the floor with something not slippery, and tile the shower floor the same way.  There would be an edge between the shower and the floor, which the wheelchair would compress when it rolls over the edge.
> 
> I talked with Goose earlier today, and what he wants has just gotten 2 notches more complex than what I had been thinking about.
> 
> ...



You still need a shower pan, even if it is the size of the whole bathroom. I happen to have an abundace left over from a very large shower.


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## begreen (Apr 9, 2010)

Mary-Anne said:
			
		

> I was assuming that we would not use a "shower pan" at all.  I assumed that we would just tile the floor with something not slippery, and tile the shower floor the same way.  There would be an edge between the shower and the floor, which the wheelchair would compress when it rolls over the edge.
> 
> I talked with Goose earlier today, and what he wants has just gotten 2 notches more complex than what I had been thinking about.
> 
> ...



It's hard to say what to do before Tim has a chance to measure and put a level on some things, especially the bathroom floor. If it's level, or there is slight slope down towards the shower, then it may not be necessary to rip up the new tile. If it is the opposite, then it may be necessary to redo the floor so that the entire bathroom floor is pitched towards the shower drain. 

This is best to go over with the company or someone who has done this before. There may be a best way or design. The prefab units appear to be designed so that the chair is moved next to the shower and then he would slide off of the chair and onto the shower seat. Right now, he may not have enough upper body strength for a while to accomplish this. In that case, it may be advisable to forego the prefab unit. This may be Goose's concern. 

It sounds like you have about 6 weeks to pull this together. A complete bathroom remodel with tile can be done in about a week with a tightly scheduled crew. But even if it takes 2 weeks, it may be ok. Why not give the company that installed the floor a call and ask if they have done this kind of installation before? It may be helpful to get their assessment of options. Opinions are free, so might as well have them out and present the options and work up an estimate.


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## Shari (Apr 9, 2010)

Regarding the shower area:  My girlfriend lives in a 'retirement community' and has a main bath built for handicap needs.  Her bathroon floor is all tile, no lip entering the shower, obviously it must have a sloped shower floor for drainage.  I think what Goose is talking about (sloping the entire floor) is being wet when exiting the shower and dripping water on the floor after the shower.  

By the way, my girlfriend says the one drawback on her shower design is that the shower curtain 'clings' when showering.  She had to get a shower curtain that has a weighted bottom hem - that way the curtain does not get sucked into the shower area during a shower.

Shari


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## mgwmgw (Apr 9, 2010)

The store that installed the bathroom floor is just a couple of miles from here.  I was there yesterday looking at options for tiles.  They are willing to come by and give a free estimate.  I said I would talk to Tim when he comes by on Saturday and let them know early next week what I want to do.

One thing that complicates the shower installation is that there is black mold growing in the wall and ceiling above the shower.  We would clearly want to replace that.

We must also remember to put in lots of blocks behind the new shower wall, so we can install grab-bars in a lot of places.

My parents pointed out that the vinyl shower surround might have shelves built in.  That would be simpler than trying to embed shelves into the wall.


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## smokinj (Apr 9, 2010)

If you have mold growing I would gut the whole bathroom and start fresh. To me that is the easy way to do a bathroom.


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## mgwmgw (Apr 9, 2010)

Unless code requires it, I was hoping to leave the toilet in place.
Other than that, we will nearly gut the bathroom.


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## smokinj (Apr 9, 2010)

Mary-Anne said:
			
		

> Unless code requires it, I was hoping to leave the toilet in place.
> Other than that, we will nearly gut the bathroom.



I would even take the toilet out that way the whole floor is the way you want it! I would have it all slope to the area where you get out of the shower with a drain right there....water proof the whole floor and up the sides, and you could use a power washer in there if need be. The shower could be just 3 walls water proof with shower pan and any water that might get out would be pick up by 2nd drain. wouldn't need curtain or anything to hold the water in at the bottom. Kinda like building two showers would be easy to keep clean.


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## LLigetfa (Apr 9, 2010)

Mary-Anne said:
			
		

> I was assuming that we would not use a "shower pan" at all.  I assumed that we would just tile the floor with something not slippery, and tile the shower floor the same way.  There would be an edge between the shower and the floor, which the wheelchair would compress when it rolls over the edge.
> 
> I talked with Goose earlier today, and what he wants has just gotten 2 notches more complex than what I had been thinking about.
> 
> ...


There would have to be some sort of slope toward the drain.  If the floor is sloping the wrong way, you may have to build up the entire floor if you cannot simply drop the floor toward the drain.  If you have to raise the floor, the toilet flange will need to be built up.  I just got done re-tiling my bathroom floor and shower.

The tiled shower walls need to have a waterproof membrane, especially around the cubby holes inset between the studs.  I used Schluter KERDI.  Each cubby will need preformed corners, both inside and outside corners.  When installing the concrete backer board, make allowances for the additional layers of KERDI that overlap.  I suggest you use 1/2" backer on most of the wall and 1/4" in and around the cubby which will give you 1/4" of wiggle room.  You also need to leave room for corner molding to edge out the tile.  You can also use KERDI for the shower pan.  http://www.schluter.com/4625.aspx has all the materials and instructions.


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## smokinj (Apr 9, 2010)

LLigetfa said:
			
		

> Mary-Anne said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I would look at it as building two shower pans one in the shower and the rest of the floor you do the same thing why fight the water just let it fly! jmo


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## mgwmgw (Apr 9, 2010)

I think I would like to start a separate thread about the build week-end.
Discussion about the design should continue here.


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## LLigetfa (Apr 9, 2010)

Instead of adding wood blocking everywhere, you might consider lining the entire shower wall with 3/4" OSB and then 1/4" HardieBacker put on with modified thinset and their special screws.  The OSB would be more dimensionally stable, add lots of strength to the wall should one lose their balance and fall against it, and allow you to drive screws anywhere.

http://www.jameshardie.com/homeowner/products_backerboard_quarterInch.shtml


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## Flatbedford (Apr 9, 2010)

LLigetfa said:
			
		

> Instead of adding wood blocking everywhere, you might consider lining the entire shower wall with 3/4" OSB and then 1/4" HardieBacker put on with modified thinset and their special screws.  The OSB would be more dimensionally stable, add lots of strength to the wall should one lose their balance and fall against it, and allow you to drive screws anywhere.
> 
> http://www.jameshardie.com/homeowner/products_backerboard_quarterInch.shtml



That's what I was thinking too, except I was thinking 3/4 plywood. Probably only because I haven't used USB before. Does OSB hold screws as well as plywood? It would be nice to know that you have pretty much unlimited fastening on the wall.


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## mgwmgw (Apr 9, 2010)

I like the idea if we  have someone present who knows how to do that, and if this can work with having shelves (will they stick out of the vinyl or be embedded into the wall?).


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## mgwmgw (Apr 9, 2010)

I have been reading online about shower surrounds.
As usual, life is not simple.
They vary in the shelves they offer.

They can be made of plastic, acrylic, or vinyl.

Would anyone like to offer an opinion about which is best to use?


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## StackedLumber (Apr 9, 2010)

Flatbedford said:
			
		

> LLigetfa said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The other thing you could do, that may be slightly cheaper than 3/4" plywood is a product called CDX that's a subflooring grade plywood.  Here it's around $24-25 per sheet, compared to $35/sheet of plywood.  If you go w/ OSB, it should hold screws great.  Honestly, though, I don't think you need to go a full 3/4" behind the hardie board.  It may be a bit much, especially if you are putting up hardie board and tile on top of that.  No more than 1/2" behind the hardieboard should suffice.

When we redid our bathroom (well, I did some and a contractor did the rest)  , I used that hardieboard stuff and I did like it.  It's slightly more expensive than the traditional cement board backer (maybe a $1 per sheet more), but it cuts easier and overall is better to use, IMO.  The preformed grid on it too makes tiling a snap.  Most pro-tilers here also don't even use the special screws that they try to sell you.  Most just go w/ a 
1"-1 1/4" galvinized roofing nail and they are much cheaper and do just as good of a job.  

One thing we did in an old lady's house that needed a sloped drain, is that we ran OSB under the tray and then ran mortar on top of that.  Then we set the tray on the mortar and worked it so that it sloped ever so slightly towards the drain.  The actual slope is less than you think.  The mortar gives you a very solid base that will hold it well.  The general contractor that redid our bathroom, did this with our big fiberglass tub.  

Just some thoughts.  Hope Goose continues to get better.


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## begreen (Apr 9, 2010)

Mary-Anne said:
			
		

> Unless code requires it, I was hoping to leave the toilet in place.
> Other than that, we will nearly gut the bathroom.



The tile guys may want to pull the toilet out temporarily even if it is going back in the same place. Makes it easier to work without obstacles. 

As for built-in shelves, I can understand where Goose might want to have some, but that will add time and may compromise the installation. They can also be water traps. A smooth wall is easier to keep clean and has no opportunity for mold pockets. My thought is that it's better to install some surface mount holders. We have stainless basket type holders in our shower. They drain completely without risk of mold build-up like there is with shelves. http://www.thehardwarehut.com/bath_baskets.php. If you go this route, be sure to put blocking in for this too. 

Also, take a picture and do a drawing with piping and blocking locations of each shower wall before they get covered. That will really help locate the blocking and studs behind the tile.


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## Gooserider (Apr 10, 2010)

This is going to be long and tricky to reply to, but I will try....

BG posted some pictures of the front door space, which is up a step or two down that "tunnel" between the main house and the laundry room...  To the left is the back side of the chimney, to the right are the washer and dryer, which is at the same level as the porch itself...  The bushes that are in the picture are now gone.  To do a ramp, I'm assuming we would need to come straight out, then either turn as soon as you clear the house, and go over the existing steps (and removing those railings) or go out past the steps into the yard and then turn, which would leave the steps accessible, but not really gain anything otherwise, and be a nuisance for snow clearing....

On the other side, that porch collapsed, and has been removed, so all you have is that door into the laundry room in the middle of the wall about 4' up...  You would have to come out about 10 feet to clear the garage, then turn to go down alongside the garage, and end up on unpaved ground somewheres....  Note that the door goes into the laundry room, so you'd have the same level change problem as coming in through the garage, with the added complication that the door is in the center of the space, instead of being at the end opposite the house like the garage is...

The garage is two cars, as long as the cars are smallish, but is very full of cruft, which will be a challenge to deal with by other than me...  I think that a lift  is the best solution longish term, as it could replace the existing stairs with about the same footprint as the current staircase, and solve the problem of getting wood in, snow clearing, etc...  However it may be easier to do that after the gummint inspector types have gone away, and put an outside ramp (which I think would be easiest via the front door) in for code reasons...  I suspect that putting a ramp in the garage would be a problem because it would leave no space in the garage that wasn't part of the ramp...

Head room in both the garage and laundry room is pretty good, plus there is an attic above both that has 0-6' plus in the garage and 0-4' or so in the laundry room...  Raising the floor of the laundry room would not be terribly difficult except for needing to deal with gas and water plumbing that runs through it, and that sort of thing.  Not sure about door widths, but I think both could be made wider w/o terrible problems.  One ceiling limitation though, is that the rafters are either 2x6 or 2x8, which means that we might have strength concerns about attaching any heavy stuff to them....(I was told they should be considered to be "collar ties" and not try to store anything heavy in that attic.)

I have a very nice MIG welder and an oxy-aceteline gas rig, but not sure how my skills would be from a wheelchair on building stuff, and as mentioned, the gummint inspectors would be a concern on any kind of lift that was intended for people... 

Not sure how it was done, but the pic of the existing sink that Mary-Anne posted is backwards left-right - in the old film days I'd have said the negative was flipped, but how does that happen digitally??? :-S 

My thought on the shelves is that between M-A and myself, we have lots of "lotions & potions" and so forth, which are currently an ongoing problem with the few existing shelves on the current fiberglass tub...  more space would be a good thing (including for her razors which she currently stores on the shower curtain rail, where they fall off on me...)  If they are recessed it is one less thing to have to work around while showering.  However it falls more in the category of "strong want" rather than "absolute must" - keeping in mind that it wouldn't be hard to do while installing things, but would be very hard to retro-fit...  

I also am in favor of the idea of Kerdi or equivalent under all the tile work, with the idea of sloping the entire floor towards the shower drain....  

As far as the toilet goes - we had to pull it when we had the tiles put in the last time, but that was a job that didn't require a permit, so we were able to keep the toilet.  In this case, I am assuming a permit would be required (if it isn't, then we shouldn't get one...) and my (possibly wrong) understanding of the rules is that while a toilet can be re-used on a small project, major renovations would require us to replace the existing nice (except for color) 5 gallon flush toilet w/ one of the new econo-clogger water saver models...  I would just as soon keep the existing toilet if we can just for cost reasons, but code may require it be replaced... 

Gooserider


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## mgwmgw (Apr 10, 2010)

I found some diagrams Goose had made, took the one of the main floor of the house and added names to the rooms.

Stairs from the garage to the laundry go up.
Stairs from the laundry to the living room go up.
Stairs from the living room out the front door next to the laundry go down.
There is a step from the kitchen to the back porch.
The small bathroom is the one we want to make accessible.
M.A. Office will likely become our bedroom.

Tim has measured the length of the laundry and confirmed as I suspected, that there is no way to take a ramp from the door out of the garage, and go up to the living room.  He also says the ceiling is too low to solve the problem just by raising the floor,  but we might try to also raise the ceiling, but that is probably not our initial  best solution.

The initial best solution is apparently to make a ramp out the front door between the living room and the laundry, going out and to the left.  Tim and Ed have measured and the ramp must go down a total of 60 inches.  From having built a shorter ramp before, which took 2 week-ends, Ed has advised me to explore renting a ramp since it may not be a good idea to buy that much wood or spend that much time if we might move soon.

The open spot between the kitchen and laundry used to be a porch, but it collapsed under snow, and Goose took the wood away.  That is where I guessed we would put an elevator if we had one.


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## Hunderliggur (Apr 10, 2010)

Coming in late but my 2 cents worth anyway.  It sounds like you have the bathroom well along.  We used Kohler shower caddies in our tiled showers:

"The low-profile Aluminum Shower Storage installs nearly flush to the shower  wall and the narrow 5- by 60-inch façade lends itself to paired installations, either symmetrically on each side of the shower, or together on a single wall. KOHLER Aluminum Shower Storage can also be staggered vertically to accommodate users of different statures. The four unobtrusive glass-like shelves in each model create the look of an uninterrupted column and are removable for easy cleaning. The shelves include cutouts for convenient razor and wash cloth storage. Available in either Satin Silver or Matte Nickel finishes for beautiful coordination with other KOHLER showering components, the Aluminum Shower Storage is priced comparably to a typical shower caddie. A self-rimming installation is ideal for both professionals and do-it-yourselfers and is suitable for both new showers and retrofits. "

They are nice units.

For front access, I would recommend a temporary ramp.  Yes it will cost in wood, but check with your local suppliers for discounts or donations.  If you decide you are going to stay long term, I would suggest contacting a local landscape architect (you can probably find some donated help.  My father is an architect and I can ask him for ideas.  My mother (his wife) was wheelchair bound for decades so we have some ideas.)  You could make a nice ramp in front and have radiant ice melt in the ramp for the winter.  It can be landscaped around for a pleasing look.  Think multi-level front yard, with the level being the rest areas needed for a wheelchair ramp.  You may also be able to get an exterior electric lift (would need generator backup) but a government facility I work at put one in and thn replaced it a couple of years later with a ramp.  Reliability was a big issue.

Good luck and take care.  Sorry I cat make it up there this spring.


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## Hunderliggur (Apr 10, 2010)

Still thinking - you can most likely incorporate some raised bed planting in a front walk system and also allow a door to be added to access through the laundry room.  Something might be worked out to keep the ATV chair at that level and have another ramp system to the backyard.....  The possibilities are endless.  Of course, there is "Extreme Makeover" which really opens up the options.


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## mgwmgw (Apr 10, 2010)

Any ideas you or your father would like to suggest would be welcome, short or long term.
I am hoping there is a way we can avoid moving.

Mary-Anne


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## Hunderliggur (Apr 11, 2010)

Looking at your floor plan, I would recommend taking out the wall that create the hall between the bath and the kitchen.  It is probably not load bearing but Tim could check.  If it is load bearing, it would be fairly straightforward to put a header (Double 2x12 or 2x10 depending on opening width) to handle the load.  That would make it much easier for a wheelchair to get into the bathroom and bedrooms.  You may also want to consider getting rid of the door on the bathroom closet or perhaps putting a lower cabinet with upper open shelves.  I don't think Goose needs any extra doors.


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## Gooserider (Apr 11, 2010)

Hunderliggur said:
			
		

> Looking at your floor plan, I would recommend taking out the wall that create the hall between the bath and the kitchen.  It is probably not load bearing but Tim could check.  If it is load bearing, it would be fairly straightforward to put a header (Double 2x12 or 2x10 depending on opening width) to handle the load.  That would make it much easier for a wheelchair to get into the bathroom and bedrooms.  You may also want to consider getting rid of the door on the bathroom closet or perhaps putting a lower cabinet with upper open shelves.  I don't think Goose needs any extra doors.



I think the wall between the kitchen and hall is load bearing - I'd be surprised if it wasn't just as it sits on top of a similar wall in the basement that divides the basement into thirds, along with a big steel I-beam accross the basement main room.  I agree with the idea of getting rid of extra doors as much as possible, though I think anything we design should be set up to have doors added easily by any future owners.

Gooserider


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## begreen (Apr 11, 2010)

Not to be a wet blanket, but looking at the bathroom plans, this is not ideal. There doesn't appear to be enough room to maneuver a wheelchair comfortably. Goose, have you shown these plans to anyone that works with making homes handicap accessible? I think it's possible, but it needs thought. From the looks of the bath space, it seems like you may need to think about removing closets to increase the bathroom footprint. My concern is that right now there does not appear to be room to easily rotate a wheelchair 360 in the space. That could be a real problem.

This is just process thinking here, but maybe look at the closets becoming part of the bath space? If the shower moved into what is now MA's closet, then the toilet could be moved over and given more space. Otherwise access to the sink looks to be too cramped.


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## tmhrrgn (Apr 11, 2010)

Hi
From talking with M-A and Goose today we are thinking on looking how much is it lease a metal ramp to get Goose into the house for the time being. This will give us more time to work on the bathroom and get Goose into the house for sometime so that Goose and M-A can see if they really want to stay in the house or look for something that can be made more accessable and if they decide to stay then we can do the ramp on the front door. Also we need to do the bathroom and if they do decide to sell they most likely break even with a new bathroom. The ramp will cost about $2000 in lumber alone and if they decide to relocate then that most likely add to the market value.

Tim


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## LLigetfa (Apr 11, 2010)

Given the length of run required for a ramp with that much vertical rise, if you're considering rental you may as well consider renting a vertical lift.


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## stee6043 (Apr 11, 2010)

If you guys end up deciding on a metal ramp something similar to the link below be sure to post the cost of the rental/purchase before you buy.  I purchase significant amounts of industrial catwalk quite regularly.  I suspect the equipment I work with would be substantially less expensive than buying it through a medical source.  Judging by the photo in the link below I think the only real change would need to be swapping out the standard bar grating surface for something more smooth such as perforated or expanded metal.  Add a small ramp at each end and presto....a ramp.


http://www.handiramp.com/Galvanized.html


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## webbie (Apr 11, 2010)

Not to add to BG's wet blanket, but I can't help but think that maybe more overall planning needs to be done before anything is actually done!
(even if that entails moving dates)....

In my relatively vast contracting experience, nothing is as important as having plans 100% set AND having ALL materials on the job before anything starts. It might seem as if the Home Depot and other places are close by, but you'll likely spend a good part of the working day going back and forth for the materials.

Well, take this advice for what it is worth. I'm not sure who is doing the overall planning, but if they are experienced in such matters, they already know this. 

As Perot said. measure twice, cut once!


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## mgwmgw (Apr 11, 2010)

About the ramps, I looked up some ramp rental companies yesterday and none of them are open on week-ends so I plan to call them tomorrow.

About the plans for the bathroom - what I had *thought* we were going to do was 
1. replace the sink with an accessible sink and remove the closet underneath the sink so Goose can get his knees there, using a white Kohler sink that sticks out of the front of the counter,
2. remove the bathtub 
3. replace the moldy part of the wall and ceiling above the bathtub
4. tile where the shower is, including the ceiling (or use a combination of a shower surround and tile, but I prefer just tile)
5. redo the floor so water drains into the shower drain
6. put up a weighted curtain along the edge of the shower.

I assumed we would leave the toilet where it is, or remove it and put it back in the same place.
I assumed we would leave the other closet in the bathroom where it is.
I assumed we would remove the shelves next to the bathtub in order to have 29 inches in front of the toilet, and we have that much room but not much more.

I have identified a sink available on ebay, which I need to bid on today if I want it.  I plan to do this.  I will resell it if I have to.

I have identified a variety of formica which is kept in stock at Home Depot. Butter Rum is the name.  I have a sample of it in the car which I need to try against the other colors but I think it should work on the counter next to the sink.

I have called the people who put in the bathroom floor and they should tell me whether the same tiles as we had before are still available some time tomorrow.  I have some other inexpensive sample tiles from the same place on the bathroom floor at the moment, which can be back up choices if that does not work out.

I have identified the part of town government I must talk to in order to get permits, but not gotten them yet.  I am not clear whether redoing the bathroom needs a permit if that is all the construction we do.

The tile store will lay the tiles for money if our team does not know how.  If we do that, then I will take advice from the tile store about backing and blocking, but am incline to have a layer of something rather than distinct blocks.

If we do not find a suitable shower surround with shelves, I plan to use the wire shelves from the URL posted earlier, but I do not plan to try to install that in the initial week-end, since we can live without them and Goose might have opinions on what shelf and where.  I also do not plan to install the grab bars this week-end, but I might buy them if it is clear what we want.  I assume Goose and I can do this after he comes home.

Tim and Ed have a shower chair we can use, so I do not plan to try to install a wall-mounted shower chair right away.  We may do that later.

If our team lays the tiles then we would need someone present who knows what to use as backing or blocking.  Nobody has said they were ready to do that yet.

Whether the result is perfectly ADA compliant is not essential.  Whether this is accessible enough for Goose to use matters a lot, and I would appreciate feedback from people who have personal experience with family members in wheelchairs about that question.

Is it optimal? No.  Is it possible?  I think so.  Is it good enough?  Not sure yet.

Thoughts?


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## begreen (Apr 11, 2010)

I would not do anything until a plan is drawn up and tested for accessibility. It is much cheaper to do this on paper than to make changes mid-stream in construction. There are several options. It is not that big a deal to expand into the closet if that greatly increases the usability of the bathroom. Rent or borrow a wheelchair asap and try it out before committing to a plan. The way the current plan looks, it seems like a wheelchair will get wedged between the toilet and sink. There doesn't appear to be enough room there, maybe just 3 ft.?

The plan does not have to be crazy formal, a basic pencil sketch will do as long as it is dimensionally correct and to scale. But it should stand up to review. Don't stress, there is time to do this before next weekend. Get the tile guy in on Monday and meet with a handicap space designer at the rehab center.  Experiment a little, draw up alternative ideas on graph paper and post the results here. Several of us have construction experience and are very willing to help out. If you are not ready, then put it off for a week or two. Give yourself enough time to do this right without additional stress. 

Also, did Tim take door measurements? Are all at least 32" wide?

FWIW, our custom shower took a full week to tile in. There is a fair amount of prep work that has to be done and drying times in between each step. It was a bit complicated and has a custom pattern that made it a bit more challenging. The floor pan and drain are a critical step that has multiple layers and a membrane system. Speak to the tile guy to get a real sense of what is involved. Allow enough time and don't skip on the waterproofing steps for the backerboard.


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## mgwmgw (Apr 11, 2010)

We have a drawing showing where things are from above.  It is dimensionally correct.

How do we test it?


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## begreen (Apr 11, 2010)

Borrow or rent a wheelchair, sit in it and try to navigate in the bathroom. Also, you can make a paper cut out of a scaled wheelchair, including the turning radius needed, and roll it around the plan. I do this with graph paper and make scaled objects that I can move around. That way one can move the toilet, the wheelchair etc. Goose can also do this electronically in his CAD program if that is more efficient.

Here is the area I am concerned about:


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## begreen (Apr 11, 2010)

For the ramp builders, here is a good information website:
http://www.wheelchairramp.org/

Curbless Shower design - this is a really nice resource with great detailed drawings. Print out for the tile guy and the construction crew:
http://www.design.ncsu.edu/cud/pubs_p/docs/Curbless.pdf

Trench_drain option for the shower drain:
http://www.design.ncsu.edu/cud/pubs_p/docs/trench_drain.pdf

and a good overall design guide for making a home more accessible:
http://www.design.ncsu.edu/cud/pubs_p/docs/residential_remodelinl.pdf


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## LLigetfa (Apr 11, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> FWIW, our custom shower took a full week to tile in. There is a fair amount of prep work that has to be done and drying times in between each step. It was a bit complicated and has a custom pattern that made it a bit more challenging. The floor pan and drain are a critical step that has multiple layers and a membrane system. Speak to the tile guy to get a real sense of what is involved. Allow enough time and don't skip on the waterproofing steps for the backerboard.


Mine was a similar experience.  While I knew what was in the wall prior to the demo, there was still a lot of plumbing to move and I had to cut out two studs and reframe the wall around the cubby.  All this with minimal disruption to the other side of the wall (adjoining room).  If you still plan to have a tiled cubbies, you will most likely want to centre them on the tile pattern so the stud locations and tile pattern may dictate the design.  If at all possible, gut the shower area now so that the stud locations can be precisely ascertained and the plumbing and tile patterns properly planned.

You may need to move the toilet flange slightly to allow more space at the sink.  Floor joist location will be a big factor there but they do make special offset flanges that will let you get closer to a joist than a regular flange.  Some of the water saving toilets have considerably smaller tanks to give you a bit of room to maneuver a wheelchair.  I replaced my toilet with an American Standard H2Option which has a narrower tank.  It flushes much better than the old toilet did.  Some of the first generation water saviing toilets didn't flush worth crap but they've made great improvements in the design.  Some newer toilets are slightly taller than the old style so the transition from wheelchair to throne is not as bad.  Mine is 29.5" high and that model is also available in 31" height.  They also have other ADA compliant toilets.  Consider a hand grab at the toilet too.  Round front bowl is a little more space saving. http://www.americanstandard-us.com/toilets/h2option-siphonic-dual-flush-round-front-toilet  Don't let the MSRP shock you.  They are well discounted.


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## begreen (Apr 11, 2010)

It's best to approach design with an open mind. Keep all ideas on the table and keep them coming. Some will work better than others. But leave the past design in the past. The future needs for this space have changed and should be the guiding criteria. 

I need to head into town and start on some plumbing projects. But before I go, here is a for instance drawing. Note that this is just one possibility. The toilet has been moved to the tight sink location. The advantages are that a grab bar can be put on the wall to make it easier to get on and off of the toilet. The cold water plumbing is already there and it's not a big deal to move the toilet drain over a few feet. The sink area is now generous and allows easy access. There is an open shelving to the right to allow easy access. The shower area is generous and safe. A trench drain will prevent any water from going beyond this space.


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## mgwmgw (Apr 11, 2010)

Goose lacks the software on his laptop to test using the drawing yet.  We will work on that, but the drugs they give him are making it a little hard for him to concentrate sometimes.

In the mean time, I tried to read and understand the ADA specs, and as a result have decided that I am completely out of my depth.   :ahhh: They seem to want a 5 foot turning radius which is nowhere near the kind of space we have, even assuming we got rid of closets.  Then again I have used disabled bathrooms and some of them had nowhere near that kind of space either, so I assume I did not understand the ADA specs correctly.

Borrowing a chair makes no sense.  I am serious plus sized and any wheelchair that would take me would be much wider than Goose's.  I had been assuming that Goose's chair was 29 inches wide, and that kind of space we can pretty easily have, just.

So...I need help...with the bathroom design, so it'll be ready before the build team gets here.

I will ask the tile store to come and do a free estimate, but I suspect this is more than they would do also.

Mary-Anne


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## BrotherBart (Apr 11, 2010)

What requires access modifications to a private residence to meet ADA specs?


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## mgwmgw (Apr 11, 2010)

No law requires it.
Goose said ADA specified how accessible was accessible enough.  He said the rules were there for a reason.
Code is often like that, so I had no basis to argue against it.
I know his chair is 29 inches wide.  I do not know its turning radius, or how to determine how much turning is needed in a bathroom.
This is why I would have preferred if he had been able to do the design himself.


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## Dune (Apr 11, 2010)

As far as the plumbing goes, I will bring a bunch of stock and pipe. Special trips are unavoidable, since I don't know what is there and I am not that great of a planner anyhow. I do have an account at F.W.Webb. I should be able to rip out the old and rough in the new in one day, then come back later to do the finnish. To be certain that that is the case, I will bring Bobby Bluefin, who will regale any willing ears with partialy true fishing tales and general derring do, while he fits pipes.


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## BrotherBart (Apr 11, 2010)

Mary-Anne said:
			
		

> No law requires it.
> Goose said ADA specified how accessible was accessible enough.  He said the rules were there for a reason.
> Code is often like that, so I had no basis to argue against it.
> I know his chair is 29 inches wide.  I do not know its turning radius, or how to determine how much turning is needed in a bathroom.
> This is why I would have preferred if he had been able to do the design himself.



Wheel center line to toes determines the turning radius. I just used the little brown haired girl's chair with me in it and it needs a five foot circle to turn three hundred and sixty degrees pivoting on center.


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## Hunderliggur (Apr 11, 2010)

BeGreen hs the idea - gut the bathroom and put in what you need.  You may be able to make it work without using the closet in Goose's new bedroom.  Not as big as BG's original plan but still better than what is there.  Plastic pipe s really cheap and fast so redoing the plumbing is not that bad.  Is the ceiling in the basement below finished or open?  As an added bonus there is a view outside from the toilet!


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## tmhrrgn (Apr 12, 2010)

The ceiling below the basement is finished but it just bead board so it will be easy to remove.


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## Dune (Apr 12, 2010)

tmhrrgn said:
			
		

> The ceiling below the basement is finished but it just bead board so it will be easy to remove.



That's good to hear, it's definitely going to have to come down.


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## begreen (Apr 12, 2010)

Mary-Anne said:
			
		

> Goose lacks the software on his laptop to test using the drawing yet.  We will work on that, but the drugs they give him are making it a little hard for him to concentrate sometimes.
> 
> In the mean time, I tried to read and understand the ADA specs, and as a result have decided that I am completely out of my depth.   :ahhh: They seem to want a 5 foot turning radius which is nowhere near the kind of space we have, even assuming we got rid of closets.  Then again I have used disabled bathrooms and some of them had nowhere near that kind of space either, so I assume I did not understand the ADA specs correctly.
> 
> ...



Read the North Carolina documents I posted today. They are much more understandable and do-it-yourself friendly. Govt. specs are a little over the top. 

I'm hoping that Goose's chair is a bit narrower, more like 24-26". If it's 29" that is a wide one and will require 36" door or there will be a lot of knuckle scraping. You need to add 3" to each side of the wheel of the chair to allow for hand clearance. For a 29" chair that equals 35". Do check, the average chair width is 24-26" from what I've read.


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## tmhrrgn (Apr 12, 2010)

Let's get this question out of the way. Anyone who is planning on being at the work days have any experience laying tile down and can do the job start to finish? We need to know this because pros do not like walking into half finished jobs and told to complete it due to the fact that they do not want to inherit someone's screw-up

Tim


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## mgwmgw (Apr 12, 2010)

Goose is having trouble uploading the pictures that Tim took, so I took some more pictures and here they are.
These are pictures of the bathroom and of the front door where the ramp or lift will be.

http://s944.photobucket.com/albums/ad287/mgwmgw/House/


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## begreen (Apr 12, 2010)

At this point actual measurements of the door openings and distances from nearest obstacles would be very helpful.


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## mgwmgw (Apr 12, 2010)

Here are some rough measurements.  
I would want someone to check these again before cutting anything.

Inside measurement of bathroom door with frame 29.5"
Width of bathroom across from closet 38"
Distance from inside of bathroom door to corner by shower 33.75"
Distance from corner by shower to end of toilet 31"
Distance from side of toilet to far wall of shower 39.5"
Distance from side of toilet to edge of sink counter 38"

I already posted the dimensions of the sink counter.

There is currently a towel rack sticking out to the left of the door,
but we can remove it if it is a problem.

There is currently a set of shelves between the toilet and the corner,
and I know we will need to move those to another room.


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## Hunderliggur (Apr 12, 2010)

Wherever possible, put in 36 inch doors.  You will not regret it.  I built my house with 36 inch interior doors "just in case".  It also make it a lot easier to move furniture.


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## begreen (Apr 12, 2010)

Thanks Mary-Anne. I will work with these dimensions to look at options. 

The bathroom door will need to be widened. Given that fact, it should be replaced with a 34-36" wide door. How wide is the front entry door? How wide are the two office doors downstairs? I am guessing that in the short term one of these will need to serve as a bedroom. If so, access will be critical.


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## mgwmgw (Apr 12, 2010)

We have discussed replacing the bathroom door with a "pocket door".  I do not know how practical that will be.


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## mgwmgw (Apr 12, 2010)

We need some "counter intelligence".
I have bought a sink
http://www.us.kohler.com/onlinecatalog/pdf/113501_4.pdf 
which is intended to stick out of the front of a counter.
So we want and need a counter.
One option is to make the counter out of plywood and stick formica to it.
Another possibility is to get corian or something thicker,
or to get ready-made counter with something stuck to it,
which Goose says is available at Lowes and Home Depot 
but I cannot find it.

I think plywood would be cheapest
and likely most bothersome to make.

Thoughts?

Mary-Anne


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## Hunderliggur (Apr 12, 2010)

Pocket Door - Nice for doors that are normally open.  It requires a wall opening twice the width of the door which means a header above the door about 6 feet wide.  The pocket gets sheetrock over it so the "finished" door is your regular size.  If it is just the two of you and Goose is not normally going to close the door it would possible make his access easier.  It will also buy you about 3 inches from the door opened up against the wall.

Counter:  I think you could do something either with Formica or with tile.  Since you are tiling anyway consider tile over a SOLID wood base.  Make the"frame" out of 2x along the wall and the front, and finish the front with a pice of 1x applied over the 2x (if a 2x4 frame then a 1x6 front piece).  Use 3/4 plywood (not particle board or OSB) for the deck.  Consult with your tile Gurus on weather they want cement board on top of the plywood.  The problem with plywood on the front is finishing the edges.  For your size and space I think custom built with tile surface would be easiest to fit correctly and would look nice.  Make sure you get the Kohler template to create the openings correctly.


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## Gooserider (Apr 13, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Borrow or rent a wheelchair, sit in it and try to navigate in the bathroom. Also, you can make a paper cut out of a scaled wheelchair, including the turning radius needed, and roll it around the plan. I do this with graph paper and make scaled objects that I can move around. That way one can move the toilet, the wheelchair etc. Goose can also do this electronically in his CAD program if that is more efficient.
> 
> Here is the area I am concerned about:



OK good job on blowing up the relevant section - I would note that the toilet may be off an inch or two either way, but I don't think it would be a big problem.  The wall on the sink side can't really be changed - that area with the X in it is the vertical stack area where the stack for the water heater, the stink pipe, and the upper floor network all go up - changing it would be a MAJOR challenge....  However I don't think it would be a big problem based on the transfers they have been making me do here in Rehab - I pull in and turn left to end up under the sink, or angle right to end up angling up to the toilet, transfer onto the toilet for that task, then continue on across into the tub for a shower, or go across in front of the toilet.

The bathroom door I think will do if we replace the hinges with the offset style that gets the door out of the frame when opening it.

In terms of toilet selection, I don't want to get overly graphic, but bowel program actually calls for an elevated seat with an opening to one side, as one must have enough space between the sitting surface and the bowl to be able to insert a suppository and "manually stimulate" certain areas (I literally must do what is suggested by a certain hand gesture... :sick: ) thus a standard height bowl is preferable, 

IMHO the next design proposal, putting the toilet where the sink is would be MUCH WORSE for access to the toilet and not really help for the sink or shower, not to mention making the shower area smaller, and increasing the number of transfers to and from the chair needed...  I didn't have dimensions, but I did a rough sketch of the existing layout for some of the rehab folks, and they didn't think it was that bad...

In terms of chair sizing, I beleive they said I had 18" in the seat width - plus the wheels and push rims - I think I can get through a 29" door pretty easily, especially if it has offset hinges to get the open door out of the frame width (and I think I even have a couple sets of the offset hinges on hand)

I think all the inside doors are the same size, or at least that is my somewhat fuzzy recollection from when I was making the drawing posted earlier.

I don't like pocket doors, for a number of reasons.  but I need to go right now as I have nurses that want to put me to bed...

Gooserider


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## mgwmgw (Apr 13, 2010)

Here is the situation with respect to the ramp.

Ed estimates that building the ramp from scratch will cost us about $2000 to $3000 for the materials, mostly wood.  The rise is about 60 inches which means a ramp of about 60 feet long.

One can rent a ramp.  I have not been given numbers yet, because they have to visit and measure and make estimates, but the consensus among those who offer both ramp and lift is that a lift will likely be less expensive than a 60 foot ramp.  The break-even point is about 40 foot ramp.  However, lifts cannot be rented, only purchased.  I have had one company visit thus far, and two more rental companies which I expect to visit soon.

Rented ramps are usually metal.  Home-made ramps are usually wood.

Companies that rent ramps typically say if you rent for more than about 6 months, you own the ramp.  Rental companies apply either 50 or 75 per cent of the rent to purchase if you want to convert.

Lifts cost about $4000 to $5000.  A lift needs a cement pad about 5 foot by 5 foot big.  We have mostly flat ground to put that on.  We have an outdoor electrical outlet.  Transportation of the lift costs about $500.  If we used a lift, we would need a short ramp or platform to get over a couple of small steps between where the lift would be and the front door.  The ramp would be less than 10 feet long and about 3 feet wide.

Ramps can be purchased on craigslist.  They cost about $1200 to $2000.  All the ramps I find locally are less than 40 feet long, so we would have to buy more than one.  Some are wood.  One is metal bought from Amrep, so we could buy the rest of the ramp from Amrep, but then we would have to set it up ourselves, which means digging ground and pouring concrete to put the legs of the ramp on.

Metal ramps are "temporary" which I think means no permits.  Wooden ramps are "permanent" which probably requires a permit.

So, given all of that, who has an opinion about what we should do?
I will post rental costs when I have them.


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## kenny chaos (Apr 13, 2010)

Your outside outlet may or may not be, enough for a lift.


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## mgwmgw (Apr 13, 2010)

We have an electrician from the next town over who has said he may be willing to help us.
While I do not know whether he can attend the build week-end,
I expect he can help upgrade the power if that is needed.


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## mgwmgw (Apr 13, 2010)

Here is what I learned from the local Home Depot about counters:

One can make counters out of varieties of stone.  I am not in favor.

One can buy wood and laminate (formica or similar) and make one's own counter.
Some patterns of laminate are kept in stock.  Most are not.

One can buy the laminate already stuck to something, possibly not solid wood,
but the bathroom size would have to be pre-ordered because they do not keep it in stock.

One can make the counter from Corian, which is acrylic.
None of the Corian is kept in stock.  It all has to be pre-ordered.

So, if we wanted to go with solid wood and not pre-order,
then wood and laminate (formica) is the way to go.

If we want something else, then we need to pre-order,
and thus would have to commit to a design ahead of time,
at least enough so that we know what to order.

I guess I could be talked into Corian if someone said it was really better than laminate,
but at the moment I see no advantage to it.
I am not especially in favor of pre-ordering laminate stuck to something,
unless our volunteers think sticking laminate to wood is too difficult for them.
What I remember from Gooserider and me doing this before is that
the glue is very unforgiving.  Once something is stuck, it is hard to move.
Air bubbles may be a problem if you do it wrong.


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## tmhrrgn (Apr 13, 2010)

M-A
Corian is a one solid piece so therefore it will not absorb water from under the counter top. Most of the laminate in stock is on piratical board and will swell with the moisture. The tile option that was floated earlier sounds best in this environment. As for another thing while we are at it the problem with the mold in there started with lack of ventilation we should install a ceiling exhaust fan on a timer switch in there.


Tim


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## daveswoodhauler (Apr 13, 2010)

Mary Anne - Would there be a way to install the lift in the garage? (Or, does that propose another elevation change from the top of the stairs in the garage to the rest of the house)
I was just thinking that if you have the room in the garage, you could use the existing concrete pad and would be protected from the elements.


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## stee6043 (Apr 13, 2010)

I'd definitely be willing to bet that a lift will be less expensive if you're talking $4,000-$5,000.  Below are rough prices for standard industrial catwalk purchased at rather high volumes.  I also threw out some guesses for supports, plates and freight.  A "ramp" may be slightly lighter duty than this but I doubt it would cost less based on lower volumes.  These prices are rough but based on March 2010 actual purchases.

2 High Round Handrail - 120' - $1,800 (This price is for safety yellow.  Could be cheaper for black)
Handrail ends, splics, etc - $200
32" Wide catwak - 3x20' sections - $2,400
Adjustable supports - 3 - $600
Freight to MA, residential delivery - $1,200
Plates for smoth enter/exit at both ends - $200

Total Estimate: $6,400


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## Flatbedford (Apr 13, 2010)

I say rental is the way to go with either the ramp or the lift. The folks that rent it should know what is best and most affordable for you. In 1996 I worked as a grip on the shoot of an HBO movie called "In the Gloaming". It was directed by the late Christopher Reeves. We shot the movie at a house in Pound Ridge, NY near his home. We had an assortment of rented lifts and ramps that we used to move Mr. Reeves all over the house and grounds. The rented equipment was easy to deal with, lightweight, and well made. 
In fact, the more I read on this thread, I am surprised that Mary-Anne and Goose aren't mentioning getting help from professionals that deal with accessibility. While it is awesome that we here at hearth.com and Goose and Mary-Anne's friends are all working together to help solve problems and help make the house more accessible, I am concerned that time and money could be wasted by not getting help from experts. I don't mean to in any way disrespect Mary-Anne or others who have contributed.


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## mgwmgw (Apr 13, 2010)

Rick from the local tile shop was just here.  This is what he recommended.
If the existing floor is flat or tiles toward the shower, then they leave it in place.
Otherwise, they tile over it to get the right tilt.
The labor is cheaper this way than taking up the old tiles.
We should use contrasting tile in the shower, either 1 by 1 or 2 by 2,
so that the small tile can fit right around the drain.
We need to put either a membrane or a copper shower pan under the tile
in the shower.  We do not need to put it under the whole floor.
The floor under the sink should be tiled with the same tile pattern as the shower.
A shower surround would work.  A plumber should know how to install this.
The mold problem may be because the fan is blocked or not powerful enough.
The wall and ceiling above the shower surround could be tiled, but
it would be less expensive to use mildew resistant paint.
I would probably use white on the ceiling above the shower.
I could use white or some other color on the wall.
The local hardware store carries the mildew resistant paint.
One buys it in quarts.
Rick will see if there are leftover or discontinued tiles 
we can use for the shower and under sink 
and get inexpensively.


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## Hunderliggur (Apr 13, 2010)

It sounds like the lift is the best near term solution.  I would put it to the left of the existing stairs looking at the front of the house.  Add a deck level from the entry threshold to the edge of the lift.  Add new steps to get down to the laundry level for the existing stairs.  There would be no permanent modifications except for the slab for the lift and whatever is needed for the walk.


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## daveswoodhauler (Apr 13, 2010)

Put the lift in the garage. Can use the opposite side then where the stairs are currently in. Goose uses the left hand side, Mary Anne uses the right hand side. (Keep existing stairs)
Small ramp from the laundry room to the living room. (Looks like its just a few steps)
If current garage is full of stuff, we can move it to the basement or other room.


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## mgwmgw (Apr 14, 2010)

We would love to put the lift in the garage, but we cannot.  The laundry is lower than the living room and higher than the garage.  A lift in the garage would get to the laundry but there is no room for a ramp or lift from the laundry to the living room.

One of the ramp rental places has a used lift for sale for $2500 including installation EXCEPT not including the cost of putting a cement pad on the ground under where the lift will be.  This is about the cost of the wood if we made a ramp.  There would need to be a little more done to get over the step between where the lift is and the front door, and we may need a way to open the front door at a distance, and I am not sure how much of that is included, but it is still an option.


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## fbelec (Apr 14, 2010)

Mary-Anne said:
			
		

> We have an electrician from the next town over who has said he may be willing to help us.
> While I do not know whether he can attend the build week-end,
> I expect he can help upgrade the power if that is needed.



hi mary anne

i can stop by on the friday to see what i need and if need be pull a permit. there a somethings that i have to do on saturday and sunday but i will be there for some of each day. i thought we were going to be out of town sunday but i think that is saturday so i might be there either sat late morning for a bit or late in the afternoon. then sunday i can be there mid afternoon. i can adjust my schedule for days of the following week also if need be. i'm the boss. so i can make what time i need.

frank


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## Gooserider (Apr 14, 2010)

daveswoodhauler said:
			
		

> Mary Anne - Would there be a way to install the lift in the garage? (Or, does that propose another elevation change from the top of the stairs in the garage to the rest of the house)
> I was just thinking that if you have the room in the garage, you could use the existing concrete pad and would be protected from the elements.


IMHO a lift in the garage would be an ideal solution, EXCEPT that it only gets is into the laundry room, which is about 1.5 - 2'  (3 steps) lower than the main floor of the house, and is definitely not big enough for a ramp that would get from the garage height to the main floor.  I think it would be possible to raise the floor of the laundry room, but that might also be tricky, and would involve needing to modify the plumbing for the gas lines to the dryer, and water / drain lines to the washer....  

In terms of the electric on the outside of the house - the outlet that Mary-Anne mentions is on on a circuit that supplies boxes located all around the house, including the back screen porch and the pool area - it is a 15 amp, GFCI circuit, and already feeds the freezer on the back porch, not to mention also supplying the power for any other power tools that get plugged in to any of the outside outlets, or the ones in the garage that I didn't install myself on a separate circuit.  I would NOT consider it advisable to use that circuit to work a lift directly (It would be OK if the lift was battery powered and the AC draw was just to power the battery charger)

As Dave suggested, I would love to see the lift in the garage, though I'd probably just replace the existing stairs with the lift and have both Mary-Anne and I use it, however as Mary-Anne points out there is no room in the laundry room for a ramp to get to the main level of the house.

Doing a lift on the porch with a shorter ramp from the porch to the front door would get me into the main level of the house, but there would be more work than just the pad for the lift to sit on needed.  A ramp would essentially end up near the driveway, so minimal work would be needed to get from the end of the ramp to pavement.  However a lift would effectively put me on the lawn next to the front steps - the walk from the drive to the front steps I would not consider ideal for a chair.  It is lumpy, rather narrow, and a bit irregular - most people going to the front steps just walk on the grass, and when I'm blowing snow in the winter, I just run over the lawn to get to the steps.  Presumably a fair bit of extra work would be needed to make a passable ground level wheelchair path if using a lift instead of a ramp.

For counter material - Corian is supposedly better for a number of reasons, but I wouldn't raise big objections to Formica or other - it isn't a big deal to me.

In terms of the bathroom fan - the house had a rather poorly installed low power fan / light unit installed into the bath ceiling when it was built, 3" duct, with no real connection between the unit and the vent in the side wall of the house other than the rafter space.  A few years back (5-6?) the fan started to crap out, so I replaced it with a similar but stronger fan - light, that used a 4" duct outlet, and connected with what I thought was the right thing (in retrospect less than ideal) namely plastic drier flex duct reinforced by wrapping w/ duct tape.  I also replaced the wall outlet with a larger one to match.  I forget if it was an 80 or 100cfm rated fan, but it was listed as appropriate for the floor sq footage of the bathroom.  Since I replaced it, the deterioration of the sheetrock and visible growth of mildew, etc. has either stopped or greatly slowed...

Lastly.... Flatbed Ford says;


> I say rental is the way to go with either the ramp or the lift. The folks that rent it should know what is best and most affordable for you. In 1996 I worked as a grip on the shoot of an HBO movie called “In the Gloaming”. It was directed by the late Christopher Reeves. We shot the movie at a house in Pound Ridge, NY near his home. We had an assortment of rented lifts and ramps that we used to move Mr. Reeves all over the house and grounds. The rented equipment was easy to deal with, lightweight, and well made.
> In fact, the more I read on this thread, I am surprised that Mary-Anne and Goose aren’t mentioning getting help from professionals that deal with accessibility. While it is awesome that we here at hearth.com and Goose and Mary-Anne’s friends are all working together to help solve problems and help make the house more accessible, I am concerned that time and money could be wasted by not getting help from experts. I don’t mean to in any way disrespect Mary-Anne or others who have contributed.



I'm not at all sold on the rental idea for stuff that we are likely to be owning for an extended period of time (Maybe I'm over pessimistic but the rehab folks seem to treat this as something that I'm going to need to at least some degree for life...) and even if we move most of the stuff that has been proposed for rental are things we could take with us if we did decide to move (and the new owners would probably want us to take away) so why not buy it - the situation is different than the short term needs (and big budget) of a movie project)

However I am starting to think that FBF might well be right about hiring pros in other respects - I can't express how much I appreciate all the offers of help and assistance from the Hearth folks, but it seems like this effort at design by committee with limited data, and different skill sets, plus trying to figure out how to plan and coordinate everyone's schedule is putting a lot of stress on Mary-Anne and I in different ways.  It also appears that the gov't rules about permits and inspections are very much slanted so as to make volunteer work extra difficult.  There also appear to be various low-cost loans / grants etc. out there that can cover a fair bit of the expenses, but again slanted towards using "pro's" - Would this be a better way to go?  I don't know but I'm starting to wonder about it....

Gooserider


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## begreen (Apr 14, 2010)

I can appreciate your concerns and the stress this is putting on both of you. It will help to slow down a bit.  My suggestions may have seemed dramatic, but I was thinking long-term and not a make-do approach. The reason for this was that if the final design works well, the likelihood of being able to stay in the house increases. Second, this is a huge life change for you, there is no point in making it anything but the most workable possible solution. And last, you folks are on a fixed budget, so each expenditure should be building a foundation for the the next step. Temporary fixes and knucklbusting doorways will only mean a tearout later on. 

Best to do the first stage correctly. I would focus on making the first floor a very habitable and wheelchair friendly place. The first step to that is having an on paper plan that works. Volunteer help can work out, but only if they are going by a plan. If the first step is done right, then there will not be more expense redoing them in the future. That mean that in a year or so, you can assess progress and decide to invest in what it take to make life work well for you. If that is a stair lift, then so be it.


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## tmhrrgn (Apr 14, 2010)

Goose 
I agree with you about the design by committee approach you ad M-A need to get the final layout decided before we do any work and we stick to that plan as much as possible. I know you want to save some money is most areas but at the expense of your comfortable access is an other thing. As for the bathroom as you said before that needs to be done first and done right because that will be the only one in the house for you so if we need to go with rework you are in a jam. Also I know what your preferences are but we also have to look at time and expense too, sounds like among the free labor that is being offered there in no one able or willing to do tile. I know that tile is the best thing for this environment but that take a lot of labor to do and very skilled to boot.

Tim


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## gzecc (Apr 14, 2010)

Make sure you new england guys are looking on CL for ramps and the like.  Check it multiple times a day. Good things come up and dissappear fast.


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## mgwmgw (Apr 14, 2010)

If we were to cancel the build week-end, how would we get the bed downstairs and the boxes into the attic?

Rick, the tile store person, who seemed to have done this a lot before, said we could put the new sink about where the old sink is, minus the cupboard under the sink, leave the toilet in the same place, and lose the wall between the closet and the door to widen the door.  He said we may want to lose the front of the closet.

He was very ready to tell me certain things would not work, and I am inclined to trust his judgement.

The problem with buying ramps on Craigslist is that we have to transport them somehow, and there are things to know about installing them, which I do not know.  I am not saying this is a bad idea, but only that it is not a simple idea.


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## tutu_sue (Apr 14, 2010)

Guys, here is a link to the National Kitchen and Bath Association Planning Guidelines with Access Standards.  I hope maybe the info. can be helpful to you:  http://www.nkba.org/guidelines/bathroom.aspx


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## daveswoodhauler (Apr 14, 2010)

Mary Anne - Since I had offered to help, but am not bringing much expertise with me in the area of plumbing and carpentry, and am still more than willing to come over should the build get postponed for another date...I can help move beds/furniture, boxes, etc..
I wanted to help out, but didn't want to get in the way of the other folks performing the actual work and bringing more to the table than I can, so if you need my help as a mover and I happy to help. (Might need another body with me on the heavy stuff, like the bed, etc..)
David


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## Gooserider (Apr 15, 2010)

First off a few sites that may be useful that have been pointed at - these are coming from a book called the "Paralysis Resource Guide" which is put out by the "Paralysis Research Center" - which is run by the Christopher and Dana Reeve Foundation, which are reputed to be good folks.  The book itself looks pretty good, I'm working on reading through it myself, when not busy with other stuff...  I have NOT checked out these sites myself, the descriptions are cribbed from the book in about the order I think will be most useful...



1. The Ramp Project - MN Rehab Services Dept, and others offers an inexpensive, Modular, Reusable, Easy to build wheel chair ramp design - They have a book "How to Build Ramps for Home Accessibility" contains detailed step-by-step installation instructions and engineering drawings for ramps and stairs.  It can be purchased for $15 or viewed at http://www.wheelchairramp.org

2. Paralyzed Veterans of America pva.org  Not in the book, but mentioned by one of the people that gave it to me as especially useful - see the accessible design section of the site.

3. ABLEDATA: A national resource database on adaptive technology products, including every sort of device and tool for home or workplace modification - http://www.abledata.com

4. Adaptive Environments: promotes accessibility and universal design through education programs, technical assistance, and design advocacy 180-200 Portland St., Suite 1, Boston, MA 02114 (617) 695-1225 (NOTE THAT THESE FOLKS ARE LOCAL!) http://www.adaptenv.org

There were several others, but they looked more oriented towards education and outreach rather than actual design...

A few other thoughts...

1. We really CAN'T slow down that much - the insurance company is only going to pay to keep me here at the rehab center for so long, and judging by the way that the therapists and everyone else is telling me that I'm making great progress, I'd expect that might tend to be a shorter period rather than longer.  They will NOT keep me here longer because the house isn't ready...  If it really isn't ready I'll get packed off to a nursing home / human warehouse, where I will probably NOT get good care...  If it's only somwhat ready they will drop me in the living room w/ a hospital bed and a portable commode...

2. I don't see that the house has to be totally accessible or comfortable at first - as far as I'm concerned, the first floor is all that matters at this point, and then only to a limited extent - enough that I can get in, sleep, and go potty at a minimum.  For this I need - 

A: A ramp or lift to get in the front door (Which must be wide enough)  
B: Wide enough doors to get into the two downstairs bedrooms and the bathroom (Which I'm assuming would be 32"? though it might be possible to get away with a 29 or 30" and a 36" would be ideal)
C: A bathroom that is done enough to not need extensive remakes once I'm home...

A and C are critical, with B almost as important, and easy to deal with (removing doors and frames from the bedrooms would work as a temporary solution..)

We don't need to get to any other floor.  We don't need to redo the kitchen. (both would be nice but not needed at this time...)

3. From all that I've seen thus far, the bathroom mod needed AT MOST is to possibly remove the linen closet on the tub side and make the door wider.  I see no need to relocate any of the fixtures - just replace the sink with a counter mount, and the tub with a roll in design - 

4. There might be a need to update some of the electrical, but if this causes extra gov't hassle, and can be avoided otherwise, I don't see it as vital (if practical might try to design to make it easier to do as a retrofit in the future, but...)

5. I would hope that the volunteer crew can gut the bathroom, and rough it in so that the tile guy can come in and do his thing on the following week, thus allowing proper time for drying cycles and the like.

6. The other volunteer crew tasks would include building a ramp (maybe, though it doesn't look cost effective to rent or purchase commercial ramps from the pricing Mary-Anne has gotten so far) and moving stuff from what is currently Mary-Annes office to the master suite on the second floor, and the bed down to her office - if we have time, possibly also do things to my office as well, though not sure just what....

There are other possibilities, but this is the key stuff as I see it....

Gooserider


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## begreen (Apr 15, 2010)

Sounds good. If the crew can get A, B and C done that will be a great start. Plan on the doors being changed. In the guides I read that a standard wheelchair is about 24-26" wide. Does that confirm with what your chair width is? Got to leave enough hand room when the wheels go through, so make it 34 or 36" for an opening width of ~30-32" (The door body never swings completely out of the way.) This would be a good time to decide if you want to change the hinge side or not.


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## Gooserider (Apr 15, 2010)

More thoughts...

It might make sense to have a SMALL "pre-build" party this weekend if we have any local folks (i.e. fbelec) with relevant expertise that wanted to come look at the actual setup and help come up with actual plans...  If this makes sense, I would suggest contacting Mary-Anne via PM to arrange time, day, etc that would be best.

Likewise, I don't know if the build party might also benefit from spreading out a bit, with most of the work happening on the scheduled weekend, but having another small gathering the weekend after for any needed finishing stuff like putting up rock, painting, etc...


BG - You said:


> Best to do the first stage correctly. I would focus on making the first floor a very habitable and wheelchair friendly place. The first step to that is having an on paper plan that works. Volunteer help can work out, but only if they are going by a plan. If the first step is done right, then there will not be more expense redoing them in the future. That mean that in a year or so, you can assess progress and decide to invest in what it take to make life work well for you. If that is a stair lift, then so be it.



I agree, at least in part, which is why I am saying to focus on just the two aspects of the bathroom and the ramp for this phase of the project - they won't wait, but are independent enough of the rest of the house not to need to be involved in any future rework, and I feel very comfortable with the ideas I've put forth so far (and aside from the question of the door width and that linen closet, so have the rehab and spine guys that I've shown my sketches to)  The kitchen, stair lifts, getting into the laundry room and garage directly, and so on can all be dealt with just as easily, with a lot less time pressure after I'm home, and in a position to be doing more research on things, and take a more active role in the planning and so forth, let alone the big decision about whether to stay in the house or not...

In terms of transport of ramp stuff purchased off CL, I'm sure that if someone found the right deal, we could manage to transport whether with the minivan or someones truck...  The bigger challenge if getting stuff from different sources is to make sure that they can be combined, but that could probably be managed.

Gooserider


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## tutu_sue (Apr 15, 2010)

The 36" door panel will give the 34" needed for elbow access.  
Access Standard Recommended:
The clear opening of a doorway should be at least 34”. This would require a minimum 3’-0” door. 
Code Reference:
•Clear openings of doorways with swinging doors shall be measured between the face of door and stop, with the door open 90 degrees.(ANSI 404.2.3)
•When a passage exceeds 24” in depth, the minimum clear opening increases to 36”. (ANSI A 117.1 404)


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## begreen (Apr 15, 2010)

Good plan Goose. Take it one step at a time.


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## Gooserider (Apr 15, 2010)

tutu_sue said:
			
		

> The 36" door panel will give the 34" needed for elbow access.
> Access Standard Recommended:
> The clear opening of a doorway should be at least 34”. This would require a minimum 3’-0” door.
> Code Reference:
> ...



OK, assuming we are held to that spec, then we certainly will need to open up several doorways, though we can gain some on that door clearance by using "offset" hinges - they aren't necessarily pretty, but they do cause a door to open flush with the frame at 90° - which gains you about 2" over a standard hinge.

We MAY have a problem at the front door however, as there is a sort of 'tunnel' leading into it that isn't much wider than the door...  (And would be a challenge to move on both sides because of structural issues - one wall is the laundry room, the other is the fireplace chimney....

Gooserider


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## begreen (Apr 15, 2010)

> We MAY have a problem at the front door however, as there is a sort of ‘tunnel’ leading into it that isn’t much wider than the door…  (And would be a challenge to move on both sides because of structural issues - one wall is the laundry room, the other is the fireplace chimney….



I saw that on the plan and was wondering what the exact width of the hallway was. Most entry doors are a bit larger than interior doors. Hopefully that door is already 34-36'? If not, there's always vaseline (j/k).


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## Hunderliggur (Apr 15, 2010)

I know I won't be there to help, but try to get the 36" doors if you can.  You will not regret it and if you move it may make the house feel roomier.  If you are temporarily puting the lift in front I would suggest making a landing from the front door threshold to the lift and eliminating a ramp on the porch by the laundry.  They you would have just a roll, lift, and roll.  If later you can raise the laundry floor you could then  move the lift into the garage.  Just some more of my 2 cents.


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## fbelec (Apr 16, 2010)

http://boston.craigslist.org/sob/zip/1693755881.html


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## fbelec (Apr 16, 2010)

http://boston.craigslist.org/bmw/zip/1693699298.html


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## mgwmgw (Apr 16, 2010)

Can we fit the existing king sized Select Comfort bed in the downstairs bedroom?  I think so.
Tim took measurements and Goose was unsure, so I am checking.
What if we replaced the foundation (box spring equivalent) that Goose made with a new foundation bought from Select Comfort?  Do we need to?
If I am calculating this right, yes it will fit, and no, we do not need to replace the foundation.

The room in question is 11' square.  11' = 132".

If we buy a new foundation
it is 8" tall.  We can put it on the floor or on a bed frame.  I would opt for the floor.
It is 79" long.  It uses 2 twin foundations. 37.5" x 2 wide = 75"
It costs $449.99 + either $59.99 if we assemble or $159.99 if they assemble.
We can afford that if we must.

They have an adjustable foundation which can raise head or feet but not the whole bed
$1549 + tax x 2 including delivery.  That is too much money for this, I think.

Things are delivered in 7-10 business days, which could be a timing problem.
We have a p5000 mattress similar to the current p5.

We will put the head of the bed against the wall, so with a new foundation,  132" - 79" = 53" which is plenty.

If we centered the bed in the room, that gives 28.5" off each side, That is not enough.
If we shoved the bed completely into a corner, that is plenty.
Mary-Anne can get through a 20" space. 132" - 75" - 20" = 37" which is enough.

The foundation Goose made is about 77" wide with drawers closed by 98.5" long.
This gives us 33.5" off the end, which is enough.  Not great, but enough.
This gives us a total of 55" on both sides.
Allowing 20" on Mary-Anne's side that gives
35" on Goose's side, which is enough.
Having room on Mary-Anne's side also means we can open the drawers at least a little.

So, if I am calculating this right, if Goose really only requires 29" we can get by with the bed we have.
It won't be quite 36", which would be ideal, but it will suffice.  So, can we get away with less than 36"?

The foundation that Goose made has the advantage that it has a shelf where the bed head would be, which is useful for things like the alarm clock.  If we bought a foundation, we would not have that shelf.  I am sure we can find some furniture to put next to the bed, if we do not already have it, so that problem can be solved either way.


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## begreen (Apr 16, 2010)

It will be very tight, but possible. Have the crew completely empty the room. Then take some masking tape and tape an outline of the bed, maybe put a cardboard box inside each corner. Then, if Goose is there, have him run the wheelchair around the space. It will be tight, but if he can negotiate the turn from the end of the bed to the side it may work. If not, I would consider getting a queen size bed. But get a simple frame to elevate it so that it is very close the the height of the wheel chair seat so that it is easy to go from one to the other. 

If you need to go to a smaller queen bed, Ikea has some inexpensive bed frames to look at. Costco often has great prices on quality queen mattresses (locally, not sure about in your area).
http://www.ikea.com/ca/en/catalog/categories/departments/bedroom/16284/ (don't forget the slats).


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## LLigetfa (Apr 16, 2010)

Matresses being somewhat flexible, are a lot easier to move through tight spaces.  A one-piece rigid box spring on the other hand might not go around corners.  We have a split (two-piece) box spring for that very reason.  When we built our house, we moved in the bedroom furniture before I finished the stair details so we might have to leave some of the furniture or bust it up to get it out when we sell/move.


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## Gooserider (Apr 17, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> > We MAY have a problem at the front door however, as there is a sort of ‘tunnel’ leading into it that isn’t much wider than the door…  (And would be a challenge to move on both sides because of structural issues - one wall is the laundry room, the other is the fireplace chimney….
> 
> 
> 
> I saw that on the plan and was wondering what the exact width of the hallway was. Most entry doors are a bit larger than interior doors. Hopefully that door is already 34-36'? If not, there's always vaseline (j/k).



According to QCAD which I just got installed on this machine, the hallway from the front steps to the front door is 41" wide at both ends.  The front door iself is 36" so there should be no problem on that end...

If we do something at the laundry room, the entrance from the laundry room into the rest of the house is also 36", but the door from the garage into the laundry room is only 32"

Moving to the bathroom - The existing door into the bathroom is 30", and the area in front of the linen closet is already 37" so we might not need to take a lot of stuff off the closet to open things up.  The drawing shows only about 30" from the front of the toilet to the linen closet, which is tight, but when I was making the drawing I didn't think this would be a critical dimension so I just used a canned image from the QCAD parts library, which I put in approximately the right place.  IOW, the walls are as right as I could make them but the fixtures might not be as close...

The hall outside the bathroom is just shy of 38" wide, but the two doors for the bedrooms are only about 30" - tight but doable (barely) 

In terms of the bed - there are TWO separate issues...  The floor space "footprint" of the bed, which can probably be dealt with, (possibly by opening up the closet?) and the HEIGHT of the bed which is what I need to worry about when attempting to transfer in and out of the bed...  

The difficulty of doing a transfer is very much a function of the height difference between the two surfaces.  For various reasons, the bed that I built has a mattress height of 32-34", which is very tall.  The wheel chair height is somewhat variable but probably will be closer to the order of 20-24"...  I asked the folks in the PT/OT department about this, and they said it would make for a VERY difficult transfer, especially since I would not be able to put my feet on the ground for the stabilization that gives me...  As a point of reference, this morning I was using a different matt for some of the stretching and such than I've been using - the new matt was about 2-3" higher than the usual one, and the transfers (which I'm admittedly new at) were MUCH harder...

They had a strong reccomendation for getting a standard height bed....  One option might be to get a hospital type bed, and put it in the living room - this would obviously not be so good for entertaining and such, and means that Mary-Anne and I couldn't sleep together, but would mean that we wouldn't need to move her office, and a hospital bed has other advantages, such as adjustable height and being able to change the angles on it and such...  

Gooserider


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## Hunderliggur (Apr 17, 2010)

I think you (and M-A) would be happier with a proper height bed.  You could have someone make a basic box foundation out of 2X with plywood top to get the height where you want it.  You do not need a "foundation" per se just a level solid surface for the bed.  You may want to consider adding a reinforced "bar" above the bed so you can have a lifting bar (probably like you have now) to help you transfer and adjust.  You will need someone to tie into the floor joists above for a solid and safe installation.  Save the cool foundation you have now because you may be able to use it when you get more abilities.


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## Gooserider (Apr 17, 2010)

Hard to tell from CL postings w/o other data, but the one in Quincy is a fair haul to get, and doesn't sound as good as the one in metro-west (though he doesn't say where it's at)  Sounds like the Metrowest one would at least have what is needed to get us from the front door out to the first turn......  Going from there down to the driveway should be pretty easy and straightforward...

Gooserider


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## Gooserider (Apr 17, 2010)

Hunderliggur said:
			
		

> I think you (and M-A) would be happier with a proper height bed.  You could have someone make a basic box foundation out of 2X with plywood top to get the height where you want it.  You do not need a "foundation" per se just a level solid surface for the bed.  You may want to consider adding a reinforced "bar" above the bed so you can have a lifting bar (probably like you have now) to help you transfer and adjust.  You will need someone to tie into the floor joists above for a solid and safe installation.  Save the cool foundation you have now because you may be able to use it when you get more abilities.



I agree the proper height is a critical factor, as do the PT folks here at the Rehab.  I am also concerned about having enough space for Mary-Anne to be able to get in and out of the bed safely, and have enough room to get sheets tucked in and the like when making up the bed, though she seems to feel this won't be a problem.  I wouldn't be worried about getting a proper "foundation" if I were there to scrounge or build something, but given the situation, it seems that going the route of getting the Select Comfort box foundation is the lowest hassle approach, and isn't that expensive to do...

I DON'T have a "trapeze" over the bed here at the rehab, and they say they tend to recommend against them, as they say that many patients in the past have misused them and hurt themselves significantly.  Instead, they focus heavily on teaching techniques that don't rely on overhead support, or at least that is the approach they use for people w/ my level of injury.  (The programs are very highly customized to fit each patient)

Saving the bed that I made is one of the things I'm suggesting, with probably the best approach being to stack the two sections, after rotating one of them so as to make what amounts to a super-sized chest of drawers....

Gooserider


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## mgwmgw (Apr 19, 2010)

I have been trying to come up with a plan about what must be done.  This is as far as I have gotten.

1. Main floor bathroom
1.1 Drawers under sink are carried to upstairs bathroom
1.2 Content of closet under sink is put into a box and transported up to under upstairs bathroom sink, where there is room and the box is unpacked.
1.3 Closet and sink are removed and discarded.
1.4 New counter is installed.  It is covered with  butter rum colored formica laminate, which Home Depot keeps in stock.
1.5 Kohler sink is installed in the counter.
1.6 Bathtub and its attached surround are removed and discarded.
1.7 Moldy wall behind bathtub is replaced with something that does not mind getting wet.
1.8 We may decide to do something to improve the fan above the shower so the mold does not return.
1.9 I have been advised that one should shave the joists under and accessible shower to make it lower and make sure the water drains.
1.10 Bottom of new shower should be lined with something to contain the water.  I am advised that material is better than a copper pan.
1.11 We do not plan to change the shower head.  We will need a lower hook to hang the shower where Arthur/Goose can reach it.
1.12 The new shower should have plywood or similar behind the shower surround so we can screw in wire shelves and grab bars there later.
1.13 The free standing towel rack goes to the upstairs bathroom.
1.14 The towel rack on the wall needs to be replaced.  Room for 2 large towels would be nice.  This should be higher than the wheelchair but low enough that Goose can reach.
1.15 Where not covered with shower surround, the wall above the new shower will be painted with mildew proof paint, in white.  Use the same for nearby ceiling.  Oconnor carries it.
1.16 We want to make the bathroom door wider.  Is 32 inches with an offset hinge enough?  Can we do this and leave the closet intact?  Can we remove just the front of the closet?

2. Hallway outside main bathroom
2.1 The tall white bookcase will be moved into the new bedroom into the corner opposite the door, not facing the door.
2.2 The brown bookcase will be moved against the staircase in the living room where the green chair is now.
2.3 We want to make the doors into Goose's office and the new bedroom wider.  Is 32 inches enough?  Is that possible?  What are the steps?  Where do we get a door?  What kind of doorway?

3. Living Room
3.1 The wood cart should go into the woodshed
3.2 The green chair should be moved where the wood cart is now, in front of the window.
3.3 The TV and all on its cart are moved upstairs.
3.4 All boxes are moved into the attic, but should be stacked no more than two deep, because sometimes they crush.  Mary-Anne should label all boxes that don't have labels before they are moved.

4. Kitchen
4.1 All computers and stuff at top of basement stairs are taken down to basement.  Assume basement floor can be wet so anything that would mind should not be put onto the floor in the basement.
4.2 All containers of empty wine bottles in the kitchen are carried into the basement.  If space is short, it may be assumed that empty bottles do not mind getting wet.
4.3 Oval table is rotated 90 degrees and moved towards the stairs so Arthur/Goose can reach the microwave.

5. New (and old) bedroom
5.1 All furniture from the new bedroom except the tall white bookshelf will be carried upstairs.  This may involve stacking the furniture to make it fit.
5.2 The long tan desk with the computers on it will be located by the upstairs window.
5.3 On Saturday midday, the new foundation for the new bed will be fetched by Peter, Naha, and Larry.  We must not disassemble the old bed until we have the new bed.
5.4 The white bookshelf in the new bedroom will be put against the wall with the snow picture upon it, next to the white bookshelf from the hall.
5.5 The head of the new bed will be assembled next to the two bookshelves along the wall.  The new bed should be about 20 inches from the wall on the side opposite the door.
5.6 The mattress from the old bed will be transported onto the new bed.  We will need to drill some holes to make this work.
5.7 The two halves of the old bed will be stacked one on another, against the short wall in the old bedroom.


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## Gooserider (Apr 20, 2010)

Looks pretty good to me, I will assume that a lot of this stuff can either be "parallel processed"  and or isn't that fussy about sequencing, though it is a question of what rooms get handled first - but that should be pretty obvious.  I will add any other comments in and try to bold them as I see a need.  In all cases where stuff is being moved, it does seem reasonable to me that consideration should be given to moving things to trash rather than other places if appropriate, but hopefully M-A will be working on this already....



			
				Mary-Anne said:
			
		

> I have been trying to come up with a plan about what must be done.  This is as far as I have gotten.
> 
> 1. Main floor bathroom
> 1.1 Drawers under sink are carried to upstairs bathroom
> ...


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## Gooserider (Apr 20, 2010)

Mary-Anne said:
			
		

> 3. Living Room
> 3.1 The wood cart should go into the woodshed
> 3.2 The green chair should be moved where the wood cart is now, in front of the window.
> 3.3 The TV and all on its cart are moved upstairs.
> ...


 *One half will need to be spun 180° to make the drawers accessible on the same side, may also need some cribbing to make all drawers openable - these units are HEAVY, strongly recomend removing the drawers (which are marked) to make load lighter.  This is something that may want to happen early in process of arranging room as the units are also BIG... *

Gooserider


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## begreen (Apr 20, 2010)

You will definitely want to install solid 2x6 or 2x8 blocking any place a grab rail could possibly be installed. Plywood will not provide enough meat to screw into. FWIW, we used durock for tile backing in our shower. Best to ask the tile guy what he prefers.


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## BrotherBart (Apr 20, 2010)

Don't forget these things. Lowe's has a better one that has a high and low section. That is what we have. The darn thing is invaluable because if not for it the brown haired girl would have to sleep in the bathtub. She isn't paralyzed but she can't get up from sitting down in a tub either. Has to pull her self up with the bar. A bar on the wall of the tub does squat for getting you out and into the chair.

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053


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## mgwmgw (Apr 20, 2010)

This is the estimate from the tile person.
They mentioned wanting to "work with" the available plumber, something about the drain?
I have not arranged for the tile person to be here during the week-end.
I assumed we would put in tiles afterwards.
I hope that works out.
Tim seems to think we can save money using a vinyl shower surround.
I tentatively agree but am unsure how the division of responsibility works in that case.


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## Flatbedford (Apr 20, 2010)

I was gonna ask what everybody thought about using a vinyl shower surround, or even installing one of those prefab ones to save time. I guess the prefab would not fit in the door, but there must be prefab-like options that are suitable for renovation installations.


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## begreen (Apr 20, 2010)

Prefab can be bought in sections to fit through standard doors. There will still need to be a custom, sill-less showerpan. Actually, the estimate seems pretty reasonable compared with our costs out here. Even the sales tax is low compared to our's. I would expect a full tile unit will increase resale value, but it takes more time to install and more labor to keep the grout clean over the years.


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## Gooserider (Apr 20, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Prefab can be bought in sections to fit through standard doors. There will still need to be a custom, sill-less showerpan. Actually, the estimate seems pretty reasonable compared with our costs out here. Even the sales tax is low compared to our's. I would expect a full tile unit will increase resale value, but it takes more time to install and more labor to keep the grout clean over the years.



Agreed on both counts, and I'd want to see Kerdi, Ditra, or equivalent under the tile as well, but...  I think the tile would look better and hold up better than the vinyl setups, although the cleaning angle of it does sound like a bit of a problem as neither of us are big on housekeeping (understatement of the century.... :long: ) 

Tim is a big fan of "Bathfitters" so IF we can get a quote from them before the weekend, that might be an option - however we would presumably want to get explicit expectations from either Bath-Fitter or Mazmanian about just what they would like to see us do in regards to the drain, etc...  IIRC, Mazmainian is open on Saturday for short hours and their boss installer is also one of the sales guys (It's a family business...) so it might well be possible to arrange for him to come out and do a quick look and advice session, perhaps in the afternoon when we've had time for the tub-ectomy, and start doing the rough-in.  (I also note that going back to his estimate, he seems to like Hardibacker, as that is what he called out on the estimate sheet....

Based on what was done when we had them do the current tile floor, I would also expect they will want to have the toilet yanked before starting the job  (BTW, for the purposes of the weekend, I will not need to have a functioning toilet, as I will either be taking care of what needs to be done before leaving the rehab, or using other equipment...)

Gooserider


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## LLigetfa (Apr 21, 2010)

I believe you have more options with a KERDI shower system over a modular surround.  It certainly is a lot more work and the work is specialized so finding volunteers would be tough.  If I weren't so far away, I would volunteer.

Here are a few links:
http://www.schluter.com/8_1_kerdi.aspx
http://www.schluter.com/media/fhb_art_barrier_free_bath_us.pdf
http://www.schluter.com/media/brochures/ShowerHandbook-2009-Web.pdf


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## Hunderliggur (Apr 21, 2010)

The tile quote looks fair and looks like it covers all the bases.  The cement base for the shower is standard approach.  I did not see if they included the pan liner.  Sometimes it is a plumber thing (since the drain goes over it) and sometimes it is the tile guys.  Check.  I think you would be happier with the tile. Make sure you seal the grout with grout sealer according to the directions.  Ask the tile guys which product they recommend.  You can always get one of those sill Scrubbing Bubbles shower cleaner things.  It works with our 19 year old daughter!


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## mgwmgw (Apr 21, 2010)

If it is okay with everyone, I would prefer to go with the tile.
I do plan to have one of those automatic shower cleaners.
I have already done the same in the toilet.

Someone, probably Dune, should call the tile shop on Friday and talk to them and make sure there are the correct expectations on what will be done by whom.


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## begreen (Apr 21, 2010)

Coordinate the plumber with tile guys asap. They should provide the location and height specs for the drain. Ask what is their preferred brand to use with their shower pan system. You will need to have the proper floor drain fitting roughed in and it needs to be set to their spec. This is a critical component that must be correct.

As for the automatic shower cleaner, I think they may be designed for the more conventional setup with 4 walls to contain the spray.


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## mgwmgw (Apr 21, 2010)

Gooserider has moved to a new room.
His new room is 925W.
His new phone number is 617 573 7656.


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## Hunderliggur (Apr 22, 2010)

"As for the automatic shower cleaner, I think they may be designed for the more conventional setup with 4 walls to contain the spray. "

3 walls and a curtain will work fine.


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## Dune (Apr 23, 2010)

Mary-Anne said:
			
		

> If it is okay with everyone, I would prefer to go with the tile.
> I do plan to have one of those automatic shower cleaners.
> I have already done the same in the toilet.
> 
> Someone, probably Dune, should call the tile shop on Friday and talk to them and make sure there are the correct expectations on what will be done by whom.



I will call the tile shop in the morning.


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## Dune (Apr 23, 2010)

I talked with the tile gentleman. He was very informative and helpful. He is aware of Goose's civil activities and had been to the house aproximately ten years ago. He wants us to do as much as possible to lower his extimate even further. If we are not capable, he will complete the tasks. 
 What I gathered so far;
                                   1. The tub must be removed first. He thinks it is fiberglass (from memory). If so, a couple slices with a sawsall will make it easier to carry/fit through doorways. 

                                  2. As soon as the tub is gone, he will endeavor to make a site visit, at which time he can offer further advice.

                                  3. Some means must be used to create a sloping surface towards the drain. Ordinarily this is not an issue, but in the case of handicapped bathrooms, if may be nessasary to carve into the floor 
                                      joists to achieve a slope, without a hard to navigate over lip. If we don't do this work, he will have to. The recommended pitch is 1/4" per foot, though any amount of pitch will cause the water 
                                      to flow towards the drain. 

                                  4. Once a slope is effected, the liner can be installed along with the floor drain (by me).

                                  5. At that point, his installers would put down a sandmix base. He welcomed us to do that , if anyone was capable.

                                  6. Hardy board for the walls is much prefered over duroc, and could be installed by us. We wouldn't need to mud the seams as this can be done by his installers without extra cost.

                                  7. He feels terrible about what happened to Goose and wants to help MaryAnne and Goose as much as possible.

                                 8. His biggest concern is the abundance of collectibles and projects which may hinder construction.


            MaryAnne, Goose and Tim have my phone number if anyone wants to call me.


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## Dune (Apr 23, 2010)

Goose, what are your drain pipes? PVC, ABS, copper or cast iron?  I will be doing all the new work in PVC, but will have to adapt to whatever is there. If I know what you have, I may be able to scrouge up some otherwise expensive adapter parts (if it were copper for instance.) If cast iron, I will need to bring a bunch of gear I don't normaly carry around.

Also, abs is getting hard to find.


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## TreePapa (Apr 23, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> It's best to approach design with an open mind. Keep all ideas on the table and keep them coming. Some will work better than others. But leave the past design in the past. The future needs for this space have changed and should be the guiding criteria.
> 
> I need to head into town and start on some plumbing projects. But before I go, here is a for instance drawing. Note that this is just one possibility. The toilet has been moved to the tight sink location. The advantages are that a grab bar can be put on the wall to make it easier to get on and off of the toilet. The cold water plumbing is already there and it's not a big deal to move the toilet drain over a few feet. The sink area is now generous and allows easy access. There is an open shelving to the right to allow easy access. The shower area is generous and safe. A trench drain will prevent any water from going beyond this space.



Pardon me for jumping in late and I apologize if this was addressed later in the thread. For some reason, this thread is taking forever to load and I wanted to respond to this.

The toliet area in that plan does not allow sideways transfer, which may or may not be necessary depending on how well Goose can get in and out of the chair. I can't readily imagine a layout which would allow sideways transfer, but it is something to consider.

Also, I would stongly recommend ditching the old toliet and getting a 16" high "accessible" toliet; it makes a hugh difference for folks w/ disabilities.

I will post more later on what we went through getting the "cottage" ready for my FIL coming back from rehab in a wheelchair.

Peace,
- Sequoia


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## Hunderliggur (Apr 23, 2010)

If the tub is cast iron you can break it apart with a sladge hammer.


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## mgwmgw (Apr 23, 2010)

I have good news and I have bad news.

The bad news is that absolutely no-one from hearth.com showed up today.
I was surprised.  I had been expecting people.  I hope this means Dune
can join us tomorrow.

The good news is that various other friends showed up.  The bathroom demo is done.
The living room declutter is mostly done.
I still need to attack my office.

So, the first priority for handy people tomorrow is to work out what needs to be bought
to reconstruct the bathroom.  We have the sink.  We need new faucets for the sink.
We need new control for the shower.  We need whatever goes on the wall.  We need
blocking.  We need formica.  We need glue to stick onto the formica.  We need whatever
the counter is made of and whatever holds it up.  I am not sure what else.

Tim experimented with the junk wheelchair and concluded that the closet had to go,
so it is gone.  We will want to put shelves into that space if we can fit them, but
that need not be a priority if time is an issue.

The other piece of good and bad news is that the insurance has approved Gooseirder
staying at rehab until May 6th, but it is certain that they will not approve him staying
beyond May 15th, so the house HAS to be accessible by then.

I have found another ramp I can get on Craigslist.
I have not heard back from the person selling it yet.


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## Gooserider (Apr 23, 2010)

Dune said:
			
		

> Goose, what are your drain pipes? PVC, ABS, copper or cast iron?  I will be doing all the new work in PVC, but will have to adapt to whatever is there. If I know what you have, I may be able to scrouge up some otherwise expensive adapter parts (if it were copper for instance.) If cast iron, I will need to bring a bunch of gear I don't normaly carry around.
> 
> Also, abs is getting hard to find.



Far as I know, it's PVC (White, blue printing on it, glued joints)  The house was built approx 1980 for whatever that is worth.  

On the other side, the potable water is copper, although according to the plumber we have often used in the past, the people that built the house didn't always use the right grade (Yet another thing that our "oh so important to protect the consumer" code inspector did NOT catch...)

Gooserider


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## Gooserider (Apr 24, 2010)

TreePapa said:
			
		

> BeGreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't want to change the location of any of the fixtures, as I agree it is important to be able to transfer on from sideways to at least some extent.  Currently in the rehab, I approach the toilet chair sitting over the hopper such that the front corner of the chair is at approx right angles or a bit less to the toilet chair, and then slide board over the corner onto the chair, and back.   Works pretty well, and I should be able to do the same thing with the current home layout.

As to changing the toilet, I don't want to be overly graphic, or get into "TMI" territory, but it it is critical that I have a space between my butt and the toilet, the higher than standard fixtures are exactly the OPPOSITE of what I need...  One of the abilities I've lost is that of hoisting one "cheek" into the air, but the "bowel program" requires insertion of suppositories, manual stimulation, and other such tasks, as well as the usual "paperwork" tasks.  I need a padded chair that gives me a gap over the hopper so that I can reach the critical area, with the opening to the rear (which causes it's own issues)

What is actually being suggested on one of the other forums that I'm on, which I need to check out further, is a rolling "shower chair" that according to the folks suggesting it, would allow me to transfer from the bed to the shower chair, roll over the toilet for bowel program, and then on into the shower, and then go back to bed in order to get dressed and transfer to the regular chair - if it will work, and allow access to the critical areas, it sounds like a pretty ideal solution as it would cut down on the number of transfers I'd need to make.

Gooserider


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## Gooserider (Apr 24, 2010)

Hunderliggur said:
			
		

> If the tub is cast iron you can break it apart with a sladge hammer.



It's fiberglass, far as I know...  1980's vintage one peice fixture, in avacado green, that combined tub and three sided shower stall.  Aside from the color, and not having as many places to store "lotions & potions" as I'd like, it was a pretty nice unit....  Tim was asking me where I kept my Sawz-All this afternoon, so I suspect it is no longer a useable part of the house...

Gooserider


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## mgwmgw (Apr 24, 2010)

Nope.  The green bathtub is sitting in pieces on the lawn.

Mary-Anne


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## Gooserider (Apr 26, 2010)

Well a great deal of progress has been made, it is still a challenge to get around, but the house is now much more accessible thanks to really fantastic efforts from Fbelec, Dune, Tim, and many others - the bathroom has been gutted, and most of the rework needed to get it roughed in for the tile guys to come in and do the tiling for the shower stall and fix the missing tiles where the old sink cabinet and closet were is done...  

Most of the stuff for Mary-Anne's office has been moved upstairs into the master suite, and the bedroom stuff moved to her office, so at least I can move around a bit, and it looks like by the time I'm out of rehab they will be able to move me around inside the house, and I'll have a place to go potty and shower, and someplace to sleep...

Still need to work out a ramp, so that I can get in and out of the actual house, but...

Gooserider


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## begreen (Apr 26, 2010)

How did office and bath doors work for you?


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## Gooserider (Apr 26, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> How did office and bath doors work for you?



The office door to Mary-Anne's office (now our bedroom) I can BARELY get through, I'm suggesting that we remove the door as a starter, and may need to work on opening up the wall and putting in a wider frame at some point in the future.  

My office, we haven't even attempted yet, as it isn't critical to getting me into the house, and we had higher priorities this past weekend.  However I beleive it's the same size as the door to the bedroom, so will need about the same treatment.  In both cases it may be a challenge getting the doors wider as I don't know what kind of studs are under the existing frames and the hall itself is pretty tight.

The bathroom linen closet is history, which leaves a good bit of room, and that door frame has been ripped out.  There is a new 36"W pre-hung door currently sitting in the garage waiting to be installed in the bathroom door opening.

Gooserider


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## mgwmgw (Apr 27, 2010)

Here are pictures of the build week-end.
http://s944.photobucket.com/albums/ad287/mgwmgw/Build week-end 1/
I have cleaned up the bathroom that was demolished.
The tile guys should be starting by the end of today.


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## LLigetfa (Apr 27, 2010)

Too bad about the sink being busted.  Have to wonder if it was already busted when they put it on ebay.


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## mgwmgw (Apr 27, 2010)

I have communicated with the seller who said it was not busted before it was mailed
and who has filed a claim on UPS.


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## Hunderliggur (Apr 28, 2010)

Looks like te Lay-Z-Boy got a good workout!


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## Gooserider (Apr 28, 2010)

Hunderliggur said:
			
		

> Looks like te Lay-Z-Boy got a good workout!



Well the green one is a super cheapo bargain - happened to hit a sidewalk sale at one time when visiting a Wal Mart, and that was out there, we ended up getting it for $20 or $25, I forget which...  Not the best chair, but for the price it works...  The Tan one kind of hits the opposite extreme, as it is an extra heavy-duty model purchased after several normal recliners had died under Mary-Anne.  What is amusing to see is the two recliners next to each other, as the tan one looks like twice the size of the green one....  

As to the sink, Mary-Anne tells me that UPS came by today and picked it up, and will be getting the vendor to send her another one - so it sounds like there has been at least some sort of resolution, though it means that we don't know if we will actually have a sink in time or not.

Gooserider


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## Flatbedford (May 3, 2010)

Is this of any interest?
http://hudsonvalley.craigslist.org/for/1721667915.html





It is down here in the Hudson valley.


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## Gooserider (May 3, 2010)

Nice looking chair, and not a bad deal for the right person I agree, though the ad seems like the person posting it doesn't know much about the chair (which isn't going to help them sell it IMHO)

However I am trying to stay in the world of manual chairs for now, at least...  Though there is a certain appeal to the notion of having a "tractor" chair for outside use I will admit, I think if I want to go in that direction there appear to be a good many options available locally at similar prices.  Thanks for keeping an eye out for me though...

Gooserider


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## Flatbedford (May 6, 2010)

Hey Goose is this of any interest?
http://newyork.craigslist.org/wch/for/1725625006.html






"Over 50 feet modular steel wheelchair ramp system by American Ramp Systems.

With custom 5 foot platform and top and mid handrails on both sides.

In great condition.

**Pick up only. Buyer to disassemble and transport.**

Original purchase price - $8,000

Price Negotiable

Call Artie at 914-954-1330"

It can't be far from me.


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## Gooserider (May 6, 2010)

Flatbedford said:
			
		

> Hey Goose is this of any interest?
> http://newyork.craigslist.org/wch/for/1725625006.html
> 
> 
> ...



Might be of considerable interest, as we need about 60' worth and to go around at least one bend, so this would fit most of our needs - and I still need a ramp badly...  Problem would be to get it from your area to where I live.  

I'm sending a pointer to this message to Mary-Anne who is trying to make the arrangements for a ramp - which has to happen in the next few days as I'm getting kicked out of here next week...

Gooserider


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## Flatbedford (May 6, 2010)

If there are others from the lower Hudson Valley that could work with me I could help get it to you. I have trucks and access to trailers. I would need help and a week or two to get the parts up your way. Maybe somebody can move it quicker? I would try to help how ever I could for you. If you are interested, I can try to get a better look at it or pictures for you tomorrow.


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## Gooserider (May 6, 2010)

Flatbedford said:
			
		

> If there are others from the lower Hudson Valley that could work with me I could help get it to you. I have trucks and access to trailers. I would need help and a week or two to get the parts up your way. Maybe somebody can move it quicker? I would try to help how ever I could for you. If you are interested, I can try to get a better look at it or pictures for you tomorrow.



That would be a challenge on timing is my first reaction, though I'd let Mary-Anne make the call on it considering that she is in a better position to make the call on what needs to happen, and so forth...  A lot would also depend on what kind of money the person wants - his $8K new install cost is pretty consistent with the $10K we were quoted for 60' or so, the question is how much we can get him down from that number

I get the impression from the name windows that there are a pretty good number of HC folks in your general area, hopefully we could get a good volunteer crew, but I'm not sure just how much that can be counted on - if you're readking this and are able to help out, please post....

Must roll off to therapy right now - will be back in a bit...

Gooserider


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## Flatbedford (May 6, 2010)

Volunteer crew and timing are the tricky parts. I will pm my cell number to you Goose.


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## mgwmgw (May 10, 2010)

Dune and Larry have installed the sink and the shower 
and a formica counter around the sink in the bathroom,
and I have posted pictures of the result here
http://s944.photobucket.com/albums/ad287/mgwmgw/House/
It turned out nice.  The pictures do not do it justice.

Mary-Anne


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## begreen (May 10, 2010)

It did turn out nice, the boys have done well.


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## Flatbedford (May 22, 2010)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> ...as I'm getting kicked out of here next week...Gooserider



Goose,
Are you home? How's it going?


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## Gooserider (May 23, 2010)

Flatbedford said:
			
		

> Gooserider said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Been home now for about a week and a few days, with mixed results...  Lots of minor issues, and learning experiences as I have to figure out a lot of the stuff that they didn't teach me at the rehab...  It has been very frustrating as I had no ramp until late today, so I was mostly stuck in the house, but that has now been fixed, along with getting a lot more done in the bathroom - it is much more finished now than it was...  just needs skimcoating, paint and some other minor finish work...

Gooserider


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