# Anyone with a vegetable garden?



## kevinmoelk (Dec 15, 2006)

Just considering projects for next year.  Not into gardening, but wanting to be more self reliant, I've considered adding a veggie garden to my property for good fresh vegetables and also to cut down on the ol' food bill.  I'm wondering how many folks have gardens.  What size is it?  How many people in your home?  Does it supply all the veggies you eat?  Have you done any calculations on money saved?  How much time does it take to maintain?  Etc.

Post your thoughts folks.

-Kevin


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## Roospike (Dec 15, 2006)

Little something to read ..............

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/2837/


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## kevinmoelk (Dec 15, 2006)

Thanks Roo.  I still can't use my search function and I've also noticed that I cannot see the PMs I've sent.  Errgh.  Thanks for the thread link.

-Kevin


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## Roospike (Dec 15, 2006)

***************** ;-) *********************


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## kevinmoelk (Dec 15, 2006)

Holly cow Roospike!  I'm very impressed with your garden.  I'd love to have something like that.  But my area has lots of problems.  We have these animals called belding ground squirrels that dig tunnels all over the property.  So I'd have to use raised beds.  I also have a bad back, so I think the raised beds would be the way to go.  Not to mention birds and rattle snakes.

How long have you been gardening like this?  I'm glad your kids enjoy the work.  My only gardening experience stems from my childhood, but the gardening was purely ornamental... no veggies.  We did grow rhubarb, but that's about it.  Have much to learn I suppose.  Do you have any books you could reccommend?

-Kevin


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## Roospike (Dec 15, 2006)

wrenchmonster said:
			
		

> Holly cow Roospike! I'm very impressed with your garden. I'd love to have something like that. But my area has lots of problems. We have these animals called belding ground squirrels that dig tunnels all over the property. So I'd have to use raised beds. I also have a bad back, so I think the raised beds would be the way to go. Not to mention birds and rattle snakes.
> 
> How long have you been gardening like this? I'm glad your kids enjoy the work. My only gardening experience stems from my childhood, but the gardening was purely ornamental... no veggies. We did grow rhubarb, but that's about it. Have much to learn I suppose. Do you have any books you could reccommend?
> 
> -Kevin



Thanks Kevin , I have been around gardening my whole life as i have grown up with a garden and then started my own .
The best thing to do is figure out what you would like to grow and then go from there on research of each item , start your garden small and let it grow in size with your growth of knowlage.

A good place to start is at the Miracle-Gro web site , forum , Q & A and all kinds of information.

http://www.miraclegro.com/


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## hilly (Dec 17, 2006)

I grew up with vegetable gardens and just recently moved to a location where I can actually have one. Since I personally haven't been gardening for long, I treat it as an annual experiment. The first year I didn't weed enough and at one point had trouble finding my veggies! This year I added a few things, kept the weeds in check and got a lot more out of the garden. Processing the food can be a time consuming task, but I find carrots, peas and corn are easy to freeze with very little prep. I will soon be thinking about next years experiment. Oh yeah, I grew pumpkins this year. The lesson: keep them far away from everything else! I had pumpkin vines all through my corn patch!


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## Czech (Dec 18, 2006)

Pumpkins? Now we're talking! I have around 1000 sq ft raised. Against my better judgement, I began growing the Atlantic Giant pumpkins a couple years back, my fall harvest of other veges has dwindled since! I need to figure out how to insert pics and I'll post a few.


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## Bushfire (Dec 18, 2006)

wrenchmonster said:
			
		

> Just considering projects for next year.  Not into gardening, but wanting to be more self reliant, I've considered adding a veggie garden to my property for good fresh vegetables and also to cut down on the ol' food bill.  I'm wondering how many folks have gardens.  What size is it?  How many people in your home?  Does it supply all the veggies you eat?  Have you done any calculations on money saved?  How much time does it take to maintain?  Etc.
> 
> Post your thoughts folks.
> 
> -Kevin



Kevin,

Money saved?  You should read the 64 dollar tomato by William Alexander - funny, and should answer your question.  My wife and I do garden, but its more a fact of getting the varieties and selection that we would like, rather than what our local grocery store stocks - I don't think it saves us any money.  It also allows us to grow everything organically, which has numerous benefits as you might imagine.  What we grow does not sustain us completely, but it certainly goes a long way.  I've attached a couple of pictures for you to see what our operation looks like.  The raised beds are where most of the veggies get grown, although we also have other flower beds that we also plant a few ornamental, but edible, veggies in such as swiss chard, beets, garlic, etc.  We also have bean tipees in a couple of places.  We also have 2 apple, 2 plum, 1 nectarine, 1 peach and 2 pear trees that are only a few years old so have not produced fruit yet.  We have good archards around (which I like to support) so these are more for fun than for food, per se.  The other picture shows our asparagus bed when it was first planted some four years ago - we now get about 5 weeks supply of asparagus every spring for the two of us.  Trust me, it looks  a lot nicer now with a stone wall and wood chip path surrounding it, but these were the only pics I had on my work computer.

Maintenance is huge, but also fun and good exersize.  Plus, there is no better feeling that pulling potatoes right out of the ground and serving them up with a little butter and fresh herbs.  Cherry tomatoes rarely make it into the house.


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 18, 2006)

I would go organic and go with raised beds, wrenchy. Bushfire basically nailed it.

We compost all our kitchen scraps, grass clippings, raked leaves, you name it. That stuff goes right back into the soil, making it progressively better.

In your neck of the woods, I'd try pole and bush beans, lettuce, cukes, broccoli, cherry tomatos, carrots and all sorts of other good stuff.

Here's another garden design if varmints are a problem.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/2477/


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## vgrund (Dec 18, 2006)

My wife and I has kicked around the idea of starting a garden but there are just so many other things on our list.  Most of the folks around me probably would buy one of these and call themselves gardeners:

http://www.frontgate.com/jump.jsp?sort=-1&itemID=6140&itemType=PRODUCT&AS=1&keyword=garden

That thing cracks me up.  Seriously, though, for newbies like ourselves we might just do a container garden of some sort.  It seems like it would be easier to a handle on the basics and keep out the critters.

Victor


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## detmurds (Dec 19, 2006)

I too will be doing a garden.  Thing is, I don't reallly know what grows well here in Western Washington?  This would be my first as well.  What I would love to grow is: green onions, bell peppers, carrots, tomatoes, corn, and well just about anything as long as it grows well here?  Any tips?  I know already that I have to surround the garden with an 8 foot fence to keep the deer and other critters out of my "harvest"!


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## Roospike (Dec 19, 2006)

Com-mon people ! I'm trying to get into the ZEN of wood burning here and now I'm back to itching for the garden ...............sheeeese . 

Gardens are great ! there is nothing like FRESH , makes your local stores produce taste like tennis balls.


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## detmurds (Dec 19, 2006)

Roospike said:
			
		

> Com-mon people ! I'm trying to get into the ZEN of wood burning here and now I'm back to itching for the garden ...............sheeeese .
> 
> Gardens are great ! there is nothing like FRESH , makes your local stores produce taste like tennis balls.



I like your thinking!


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## kevinmoelk (Dec 19, 2006)

Wow, gardeners and wood burners.  The whole forum group seems a pretty self reliant bunch.  I'm very impressed with the gardens everyone has shown.  A lot of hard work involved I'm sure.  It seems from everyone I've spoken to here and elsewhere are telling me to start small, then expand.  So maybe I'll just make say a 4x8 raised planter and try a few things to see how it goes and how I like it.

I'd like to go organic for health reasons, and I think it's just more of a challenge.  So I have to ask, what's the best way to make a raised bed?  Can I just use some 2x4s and plywood?  Again, only to see if I'm going to like gardening, obviously not a permanent fixture.  What's an inexpensive design?  Can you use PT lumber or old rail road ties?  How high should I build?  I'd like the bed to be at waist height to save my back, but then how much soil do I need underneath?  So many questions.

-Kevin


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## Burn-1 (Dec 19, 2006)

wrenchmonster said:
			
		

> "Can you use PT lumber or old rail road ties?-Kevin"



Considering that pressure treating lumber involves impregnating it with heavy metals and that railroad ties were usually treated with liquid creosote, those options would likely put more than a few undesirable things in your soil. Not what one would want the plants I am growing for food consumption to take up in their root systems. Don't do it. If you were looking for something more permanent, I saw on a recent episode of 'Ask This Old House' where Roger cook built a rasied bed using composite ties built from a Trex-like material.

I am looking at building some beds too and will probably use some old granite blocks and tamarack posts which is what I remember using when we built them with my grandfather when I was a kid. I would suggest western larch if you can find it easily. You could also use scrap untreated lumber. 

The best place to get info and one of the most underutilized resources in most states is your local county extension agent which operate in conjunction with state land grant schools, Washington State in your case. They are the first place I would look.

I couldn't find anything on the Yakima extension site but I found this on the Spokane County site. I hope it is helpful. Raised bed gardening


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## Bushfire (Dec 19, 2006)

wrenchmonster said:
			
		

> Wow, gardeners and wood burners.  The whole forum group seems a pretty self reliant bunch.  I'm very impressed with the gardens everyone has shown.  A lot of hard work involved I'm sure.  It seems from everyone I've spoken to here and elsewhere are telling me to start small, then expand.  So maybe I'll just make say a 4x8 raised planter and try a few things to see how it goes and how I like it.
> 
> I'd like to go organic for health reasons, and I think it's just more of a challenge.  So I have to ask, what's the best way to make a raised bed?  Can I just use some 2x4s and plywood?  Again, only to see if I'm going to like gardening, obviously not a permanent fixture.  What's an inexpensive design?  Can you use PT lumber or old rail road ties?  How high should I build?  I'd like the bed to be at waist height to save my back, but then how much soil do I need underneath?  So many questions.
> 
> -Kevin



I used 2x8 or 2x10, I think.  Boxes are 4x8.  In the NE they'll last a good ten years, maybe more.  PT and RR ties have issues, and I'd stay away from them for any food production.  I looked into the new recylced wood/plastic products, but they were too expensive for the 8 boxes I constructed, but if just doing one, they'd last forever.  However, if just tryign this out, I'd go for 2x6s or somwthing and then you can always easily burn it if you get bored.  Picture of mu construction can be found below.  I used scrap lumber for posts that I sank into teh ground about 18 inches or so.  As you can see, my install was made harder by the slope, but it also acts as a great micro climate as it's all facing SE.


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## elkimmeg (Dec 19, 2006)

I always have had a garden but not blessed with the best soils  Gardening means less time processing wood less time playing golf..
Bambie and here friends ruined it a year ago then there was the wood chuck  that is now providing fertilizer
 We compost everything and re work it back into the soils Nowhing like garden fresh Vegies that actually tast that way
 If I wanted sawdust I can grab fom around the bench saw not at the local super market


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 19, 2006)

All you really need for raised beds is to dig out the walkways and mound the soil up into raised beds. Then you can turn compost into the soil and put sawdust from your woodcutting activities into the walkways. It's a good way to dispose of woody waste and allows you to walk around your garden without compacting the soil your plants are growing in.

Some of my beds are framed in. I used 3/4" x 3.5" red oak pallet lumber nailed into stakes driven into the ground. Frames are nice, but you really don't need them.

I think organic is easier than chemical. You don't risk over-ferting or burning your plants, and the compost just makes the soil better. I turn it into the soil in the spring or fall and I also sift it and use (lots of) it for mulching my plants. The mulch retains moisture in the soil, suppresses weeds and gives your plants a good shot of organic nutrients every time you water or it rains. Eventually it gets turned into the soil as well.

Gardening is one of the more relaxing, satisfying things you can do in your spare time, IMO. Right up there with cutting and burning wood.


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## kevinmoelk (Dec 20, 2006)

Thanks guys for all the advice.  I will seek out some local advice for my particular climate for what's good to grow.  I want simple and easy.  I like the idea of using some pallet wood.  I've got some cedar fence boards left over from a project this summer.  Probably not enough to build everything, but it wouldn't take too many more boards.  If I want to build a raised bed say at waist height, then how much soil do a need?  Should it go to the ground, or can I build a table like structure with a bottom, and say maybe have 12-18" of soil?

What about watering?  Do you folks just spray it down with the hose, or do you have irrigation systems installed?

-Kevin


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## Bushfire (Dec 20, 2006)

Raisng the bed to waist height maybe too much, in my opinion.  You really only need to riase the level about 12-18 inches, if that, from the ground to improve drainage and allow for ease of adding amendments.  As Eric points out, having rasied beds also allows for you to walk between them, thus not compacting the soil on the actual planting area.  Watering raises an interesting thing with raised beds.  They are great in that they drain and thaw a lot earlier than the ground, thus allowqing earliler plantings in the spring, but they do tend to dry out more quickly in the summer, thus requiring more frequent watering.  At the moment we just use a hose, but I plan on setting up a drip irrigation system sometime in the future that is fed by water caught from the roof of the house.  By adding more organic matter, the soil will actually retain moisture more  efficiently and also allow plants to draw upon that moisture in times of scant rain.  You can never have enough OM, in my opinion.  If you end up using a raise bed system, I highly recommend the square foot gardeing system - see Square Foot Gardening by Mel Bartholomew.

Good luck.


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## DriftWood (Dec 20, 2006)

Location, location, location, Full sun from sunup to sundown from spring to fall if possible. For hi yields plants need sun and water, the more hours of sun the better the yields. I went no till years ago you should have seen the worms the that garden. Leaf mulch in the fall, plant through them in spring, covered with grass clippings in the summer, no weeds and its all gone by fall in time for more leafs.

I water at 1 inch a week, rain fall or water from the hose. get a rain gage. Plants need deep roots to get through dry periods I will water only once a week if needed and the soil under mulch stays wet longer.


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## njtomatoguy (Dec 20, 2006)

I love gardening- When I was a kid, I learned from my grandfather, and his best friend, who was my neighbor- but- it is a lot of work. With that said, nothing beats a Jersey tomato, and I have excellent sandy soil. I use no synthetic feritilizer. Last year I had a calcium deficiency, so the tomato plants looked like hell, but still got a pretty good crop.I also plant spinach,lettuce,green beans, jalapeno peppers, sunflowers cucumbers and green and yellow squash. I also try a new veggie every year.

In the past have tried:

Beets
Carrots-miserable failure
Okra
Sugar baby watermelon
Cantaloup-failure
pumpkins-take up too much room
eggplant- I don't like it, so I wont grow it again.

Get that square foot gardening book, it's an excellent reference.

Bob


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 20, 2006)

Funny about the carrots. When I lived in a place with sandy soil, I had fantastic carrots. Now my soil is a little heavier to clay, and I have trouble getting them to grow single, straight roots. Leave them in the ground, though, and they make a nice mid-winter snack if you can get to them. That hasn't been a problem so far this year.

But yes, it's a lot of work, though I'd say the satisfaction from even marginal results is more than worth the effort. Look at as physical and mental therapy, with the added bonus of excellent free food. Ply your neighbors with fresh veggies, and they'll forgive all sorts of abberant behavior.


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## Firewoodguy.com (Jan 6, 2007)

[quote author="wrenchmonster" date="1166170128"]Just considering projects for next year.  Not into gardening, but wanting to be more self reliant, I've considered adding a veggie garden to my property for good fresh vegetables and also to cut down on the ol' food bill.  I'm wondering how many folks have gardens.  What size is it?  How many people in your home?  Does it supply all the veggies you eat?  Have you done any calculations on money saved?  How much time does it take to maintain?  Etc.

Post your thoughts folks.

-Kevin[/quote 

A veggie garden is good, if you have the time to maintain it. Whats good about it, there is always fresh vegetables (e.g. fresh vine ripen vegetables) It does take time to care for it, but the outcome is well worth it. You may have to protect the garden from small animals and critters. I usually use 4' chicken wire on the outside perimeter. Hoeing, watering and spraying is a standard procedure. I mainly grow a dozen or so tomatoes and green peppers plants and have 2 or 3 hills of cukes and a few other small variety of veggies. My garden is only about 15' x 30'. As to the saving from supermarket prices, consider maybe none, but the freshness is far superb than supermarket produce. Good luck to you what ever choice you choose.


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## sgcsalsero (Jan 7, 2007)

Nothing can surpass the taste of home grown, worth the effort alone to me.  I've used Pinetree seeds for a couple years now, very reasonable prices . . .some things bomb some things take off . . couple dollars wasted, no biggie.  I think we get our tomato seeds from Burpee.  You may want to pick up a couple catalogs by calling direct to places like this, and also ask for some recommended resources (probably most if not all of customer reps are avid gardeners).  One other resource, check out davesgarden.com.


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## PAJerry (Jan 7, 2007)

I've always had a garden.  I grow corn, tomatoes, onions, brussels sprouts, green vegetable soy beans, edible podded peas, spinach, and squash. Also have 11 blueberry bushes,  raspberries,  asparagus, gooseberries, and a plum tree.  Our soil here is mostly clay but I have hauled in lots of horse manure from a neighbor over the years and our garden soil is very good now.  Stokes Seeds has been my most reliable supplier of good seed and I've used them for 35 years.


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## begreen (Jan 7, 2007)

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> Funny about the carrots. When I lived in a place with sandy soil, I had fantastic carrots. Now my soil is a little heavier to clay, and I have trouble getting them to grow single, straight roots. Leave them in the ground, though, and they make a nice mid-winter snack if you can get to them. That hasn't been a problem so far this year.
> 
> But yes, it's a lot of work, though I'd say the satisfaction from even marginal results is more than worth the effort. Look at as physical and mental therapy, with the added bonus of excellent free food. Ply your neighbors with fresh veggies, and they'll forgive all sorts of abberant behavior.



Word Eric. Gardening is great exercise. Like wood warming you many times, a garden rewards your health and mind many times over.


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## Bushfire (Jan 8, 2007)

sgc said:
			
		

> Nothing can surpass the taste of home grown, worth the effort alone to me.  I've used Pinetree seeds for a couple years now, very reasonable prices . . .some things bomb some things take off . . couple dollars wasted, no biggie.  I think we get our tomato seeds from Burpee.  You may want to pick up a couple catalogs by calling direct to places like this, and also ask for some recommended resources (probably most if not all of customer reps are avid gardeners).  One other resource, check out davesgarden.com.



We've also had great success with Pinetree.  The prices are great.  They, as with all teh other suppliers, do run out of some things, so don't leave your ordering too late.  Infact, we (my wife and I) usually get togteher with a couple of work collegues and do a monster order (I mean, who needs 200 tomato seeds) sometime in late Jan or early Feb.  It's never too early to start thinking about this years veggies.  In fact, with the weather we've been having in the NE, you'd think it was already too late to plant some things .

It's also never too late to scope out sources of organic matter - another thign to scrounge that will cost you nothing if you take the time.  Use that same truck you haul wood around to haul manure (or wood chips for mulch/paths) from local sources.  

Happy planting.


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## colsmith (Jan 17, 2007)

A little late, but hey it isn't gardening season yet anyway.  I garden big time, but the original questions are quite complicated, one cannot really say how much time and money and effort was involved.  It would probably be cheaper to get a job and buy the vegies and fruit with the money from the job.  I actually get lots of produce FREE from a local market, more than we can eat, but I still grow a lot of vegies, since mine are organic and fresher than what I get free, which means tastier and I don't have to worry about the chemicals sprayed on it.  I do mostly raised beds, since we live on a slight slope and most of the topsoil went to live by the neighbors downhill from us a long time ago.  

The method I use is to create a framework from free materials, usually wood.  I get the wood from various friends and some was from my brother, and I make lasagna gardens in them.  That means layers of free (of course) organic materials like old produce, leaves, horse manure, wood ashes, etc. piled up until they rot a bit and covered with just enough soil or compost to plant in.  You get the best darn soil in the world that way, doesn't matter how heavy or rocky or sandy your own soil is.  You can get a book from the library called "Lasagna Gardening" or something like that, but you can also read plenty about it on gardenweb.  Visit http://www.gardenweb.com/forums/ and read the Soil and Compost group, and the Vegetables group, whatever interests you.  LIke hearthnet but about gardening, and bigger.   You can learn about growing berries or bulbs or whatever you fancy.  I have one raised bed framed with large concrete bricks.  I have devious quack grass, so cannot use the no frame method.  The quack grass grows under the frames anyway, but makes it a little more difficult for it.

I strongly recommend growing tomatoes because they taste about 37 times better if homegrown vs. picked green and shipped across the country to you.  Fresh things like lettuces and spinach for salad is good, and always grow radishes since they grow fast and are reliable and make you feel like a successful gardener early on.   I grow about 15-20 kinds of vegies every year plus have rhubarb, asparagus, raspberries in 3 colors, and an orchard of mostly pears and apples.    I can a lot of food every year, last year over 200 jars.  Tomato sauces, salsa, pickled peppers, jams, and fruit sauces are the main things we can.   Of course people who don't know what my life is like ask if I get bored because I am not employed!?!    We don't have time to take care of the orchard, we barely pick a tenth of the fruit.  Fortunately a lot of it is old and falling down and will become firewood!  I am up too late per usual so will stop now, although I could talk about gardening all night.  My 'handle' on gardenweb is led_zep_rules.


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## tjg911 (Jan 17, 2007)

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> Funny about the carrots. When I lived in a place with sandy soil, I had fantastic carrots. Now my soil is a little heavier to clay, and I have trouble getting them to grow single, straight roots.



actually eric that makes perfect sense. carrots do well in sandy loam but in heavier soils not as well. in loose friable soil (no roocks, clay, roots) they grow straight. also go light on nitrogen (too much manure) or the roots get hairy. 

tom


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 17, 2007)

I've heard that too much organic matter, in my case compost, makes for bad carrots. This year I think I'll excavate out a section and put in a nice layer of forest sand and see how that works.

Actually, I was out turning the garden the other day (before it got below zero around here), and dug up some of the remaining carrots from last summer. Pretty darn good. I think I read somewhere that the taste comes out after the first frost. Seems like the case.

The first seed catalog of the season arrived yesterday. What I wouldn't give for one of those juicy tomatos shown on the cover, right now. And just a few months ago, we were composting what we couldn't eat or give away.


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## tjg911 (Jan 17, 2007)

wrenchmonster said:
			
		

> Just considering projects for next year.  Not into gardening, but wanting to be more self reliant, I've considered adding a veggie garden to my property for good fresh vegetables and also to cut down on the ol' food bill.  I'm wondering how many folks have gardens.  What size is it?  How many people in your home?  Does it supply all the veggies you eat?  Have you done any calculations on money saved?  How much time does it take to maintain?  Etc.
> 
> Post your thoughts folks.
> 
> -Kevin



kevin,



this is too big so i have to post it in increments!



the basis of my life is to be self reliant. without living off the grid, that's hard to do but i do far more than the average person. i do buy my firewood cut and split but i have toyed with buying trees. gardening like anything else returns what you put into it. imho gardening is a lot of work - all season. weeding is the most annoying and important thing in gardening, in the heat of summer watering can be time consuming. i start most things from seed growing under lights or direct seed. i buy peppers and eggplant as plants just because i don't want to start them from seeds. they want heat to germinate and i refuse to buy a heating mat to germinate them. pinetree is inexpensive for seeds but fedco will make pinetree look super expensive! seeds last for years, onions are the exception and i buy fresh seeds each year. i save seeds for pole beans and tomatoes so i don't buy them.



i grow most of the food i eat. i save a lot of money especially when you consider that i grow everything except the eggplants organically, organic produce can be expensive. the eggplants are grown in 5 gallon pails and i do use osmocote for vegetables as the fertilizer, the garden is 100% organic. a simple example of costs is i harvested 32 butternut squash (bns) this past fall. the regular price for non organic bns is 69 cents a pound. the organic price of bsn is 99 cents to 1.29 a pound. my bns average about 3-4 pounds, some are small 2 pounders and some are huge 6-7 pounders. i figure i have around 100-110 pounds of  organic bns, they store 6-7 months. the seeds cost $1.50. so that's about $70 worth of non organic bns at the store. but mine is organic so they are worth about $100 to $130 to me. that's just butternut squash! i can't tell you what i save but my grocery bill averages (?) about $20 a week when i buy very little to $70 when i buy a lot or expensive stuff, some weeks i don't even go if there's nothing on sale (coffe, mayo, tp, cheese, bagels, etc) or that i need. say good quality olive oil is on sale for $10 a bottle vs $15 i'll buy 6 or 7 bottles so that'll add up fast. this is for just 1 person tho not a family of 4 or 5. i grow hundreds of dollars worth of mesclun (baby lettuces and different types of greens), at $7 a pound for non organic so at the stores my organic must be worth $10 a pound, seriously. i have 100 pounds of onions in storage, my long term storage onion will store 12+ months. you get the picture. in fairness i do buy food at the health food store. it's hard to say how much, usually spices and herbs or non organic brown rice in 25# bags. i am a vegetarian so beans at 89 cents a pound or rice at the same price is cheap protein vs meat, 2 pounds of protein costs me $1.80 - 1 pound of rice and 1 pound of beans. lentils are even cheaper at just 69 cents a pound.


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## tjg911 (Jan 17, 2007)

my garden is 30' X 40' no raised beds. i plant it pretty intensively and use space carefully. i plant crops with a second or even 3rd harvest of the same thing in mind or replant a different crop after the 1st is harvested. for example, i pull spring planted carrots and seed fall carrots in the same 1' X 6' plot. i get about 15-20 pounds of carrots per harvest or 30-40 pounds for the entire season, my long term storage carrot will store 12 full months. or i'll plant potatoes and after i dig them i plant kale or cabbage or winter long keeping radishes (keep 6 months not your typical radishes these are huge like giant carrots!) in that space. i'll have 2 cabbages growing all season in a 3' X 7' plot by starting seeds every 40 days.



it takes a LOT of time to do all this. holding a full time job does mean i have to, read that as MUST, work on it on evenings and the weekend. now i don't spend every free minute in the garden but it does require say on average 10-20 hours per week and depending upon when in the season it varies. in august and september i am VERY busy and harvesting/freezing is part of that time as well. when i pick 4-5 pounds of pole beans i now have to blanche and freeze 1/2 of that because in another 3-4 days i'll have another 5 pounds to pick. sometimes it can be too much work but no one forces you to do it, you do it if you want to and since i want to i do have to do it! most of what i've eaten since october has been from the garden and all the vegetables have been from the garden. it's a real treat when i get a pizza or chinese!



it's easier to tell you what i never grew. keep in mind i have stopped growing some things because they use too much space or have too long a growing season or yield too little for the time/space used so i can't justify them. but also consider i grow for storage thru fall, winter and spring and i buy very little in the way of veggies. if you grew just for fresh eating then smaller amounts of space would mean you could grow more things. for example i have stopped growing melons, watermelons require all season to grow and produce very little and you can't store them. i never grew artichokes, asparagus, celery, corn, kohlrabi, leeks, okra, rhubarb, shallots, any fruits nor any grains. other than that, i have grown it. i have about 20 veggies in the garden, not counting different varieties of the same thing (3 varieties of onions, 8 varieties of tomatoes, 2 or 3 broccoli varieties etc).


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## tjg911 (Jan 17, 2007)

if you do this start small then expand. that's how i did it. the key is to have healthy soil, it's ALL about the soil! clay is a killer, i have sandy loam which is an excellent soil type. i add leaves (free), manure (i buy every 2nd or 3rd year) plus compost i make to enrich the soil. it is fun but you should read online or simple books about how to grow vegetables, that's how i learned. each vegetable has certain requirements for water or fertilizer, weeding (carrots, onions and garlic do not compete well with weeds), sun and of course insect issues. if you go organic you save money on fertilizer (i do buy an organic one) and of course pesticides (i do use an organic one). most insects are not going to harm your stuff but you need to learn which do and how to deal with them, rather easy once you know. for the most part the 'good' bugs eat the 'bad' bugs but you still have to be proactive. it is fun and i like it. but there is a fair amount of work involved. 

hope this helped you.

tom


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 17, 2007)

Most of the work, in my experience, is done between mid May and mid July. After that, everything should be pretty much on its way. If you mulch heavily, it cuts down on the need to weed and water so much. So you can enjoy the fruits of your early summer work in the latter part of the season.

Of course, as tjg suggests so well, gardening can be a lot of fun and you can spend as spare much time as you have in the garden. Pretty much you get out of it what you put in, and there are plenty of things you can fool around with later in the summer if you're so inclined.

I don't use any chemicals, so I have to stay on top of the bugs. Japanese beetles and cucumber beetles are my main enemies. Gotta get out there and squish or otherwise dispose of them before they get a foothold.


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## kevinmoelk (Jan 18, 2007)

Thanks for the continued advice folks.  I'm starting to look at some seed catalogs and talking to other local gardeners.  I still plan on building a raised bed at near waist height, mainly for my back problems, so I don't have to stoop too much to work on the garden.  It will be roughly 4x8 in size.  For watering I'm going to set up a soaker hose and put a timer on it so it will be watered automatically.

I'm considering the following for my first year:

Tomato
Zuchinni
Red Pepper
Potato
Cucumber
Squash

That's it.  From what I've read, all of these are simple to grow.  Not sure if and how they will work together or if I can get all of those in a 4x8 bed.  Any thoughts?

-Kevin


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## Roospike (Jan 18, 2007)

wrenchmonster said:
			
		

> Thanks for the continued advice folks.  I'm starting to look at some seed catalogs and talking to other local gardeners.  I still plan on building a raised bed at near waist height, mainly for my back problems, so I don't have to stoop too much to work on the garden.  It will be roughly 4x8 in size.  For watering I'm going to set up a soaker hose and put a timer on it so it will be watered automatically.
> 
> I'm considering the following for my first year:
> 
> ...


In a 4X8 bed you might get 1 Cucumber hill and 1 Tomato plant ( maybe 2 ) Go back and look at my garden pic's posted WM to see what these items take for space.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/2837/


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## Roospike (Jan 18, 2007)

The yellow out lined area is about 12' X 6" , as you can see how a Cucumber hill can take over the space and there not finished growing as seen in the second pic.


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## tjg911 (Jan 18, 2007)

wrenchmonster said:
			
		

> Thanks for the continued advice folks.  I'm starting to look at some seed catalogs and talking to other local gardeners.  I still plan on building a raised bed at near waist height, mainly for my back problems, so I don't have to stoop too much to work on the garden.  It will be roughly 4x8 in size.  For watering I'm going to set up a soaker hose and put a timer on it so it will be watered automatically.
> 
> I'm considering the following for my first year:
> 
> ...




Kevin,

spike is correct, 32 sq ft is really quite small. For carrots, different greens, beets, onions which are all smallish ok but for the things you mention, they use a fair amount of space.  you might have room for 2 tomato plants, 2 pepper plants, if you trellis the cuke perhaps 2 or 3 but that's about it. 32 sq ft of potatoes will yield perhaps 10-12 pounds, potatoes use a lot of space and yield 1-4 pounds per plant. bush zucchini use less space than a regular zucchini which can use a  full 4' X 4' all by it's self. squash? yellow? see zucchini, winter? 1 winter squash plant can use the whole 32 sq ft. 

i don't mean to discourage you but you don't realize the space plants need and use. a nicely planted garden in mid june can be so over grown and crowded by august you won't be able to get into it! i meantioned i plant intensively and that's because of the space. i waste room on paths but with a raised bed that is not going to be a problem. 

you may want to try plants in 5 gallon containers. it seems impossible you could grow a tomato plant in such a confined space but it is possible. containers require special consideration for the soil mixture, fertilization and in hot weather MUST be watered every day. i grow eggplants in them and it works fine but i gave up on tomatoes because i get better results in the garden and i have the space. I doubt squash could grown in a 5 gallon pail, forget potatoes (try a trash can). I can tell you how to grow in 5 gallon pails and direct you to a website like this one.

Multiple 4' X 8' beds will allow you to grow more things.

Tom


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 18, 2007)

I'm not sure about the Northwest, wrenchy, but out here on the east coast, it's hard to go wrong with green beans. Pole beans, bush beans--you name it. If you do it right, they produce beans all season long (and I mean lots of beans). 

One good thing about zucchini is that it's a very productive plant as well. What I do is let them get big, then cut 'em up and dry 'em and then burn 'em when the heating season rolls around. Zuclear Energy.


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## kevinmoelk (Jan 18, 2007)

Well I was mostly getting suggestions from people of things that are EASY to grow.  I'll have to re-think a little, lol.  The 5-gallon bucket idea seems great!  I'd love to get more information.  I'd still like to try my raised bed idea, but in conjunction with the 5-gallon buckets, perhaps I can grow a few more things.

So.... let me pose this question.  If you only had one raised 4x8 bed, what would you grow in it?

-Kevin


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## Bushfire (Jan 18, 2007)

"If you only had one raised 4x8 bed, what would you grow in it? "

Too easy - tomatoes and one or two basil plants.


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 18, 2007)

I love tomatos and basil, but my vote remains beans. You get a lot of food growing in a small area, and you don't have to wait until the end of the summer to enjoy it. Plus, bean plants put nitrogen into the soil.


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## begreen (Jan 19, 2007)

wrenchmonster said:
			
		

> Thanks for the continued advice folks.  I'm starting to look at some seed catalogs and talking to other local gardeners.  I still plan on building a raised bed at near waist height, mainly for my back problems, so I don't have to stoop too much to work on the garden.  It will be roughly 4x8 in size.  For watering I'm going to set up a soaker hose and put a timer on it so it will be watered automatically.
> 
> I'm considering the following for my first year:
> 
> ...



Sounds like you'll be needing another bed Kevin. Look at the size of the mature plants. To conserve space, think vertical. I made several stout vertcial cages out of 3/4" pvc pipe that are 2' x 2' x 5'. they've stood up so far for 6 years and are still going. You can use a cage like this for tomatoes and cucumbers. However, two zuchini plants could take over an entire bed if they're happy, so plan on some severe pruning or crowding. Of all the plants listed, only the pepper is really going to be worth putting in a raised bed. Maybe add some lettuce, eggplant, herbs (like basil), beets and or carrots to the bed. Potatoes don't need the raised bed, but do need some space if you're looking for quantity. You'll need about a 2-3' x 10' bed to get a nice yield. Our beds are 30' long and we fill one with potatoes.  We grow Yukon Gold  and Red Pontiacs. I second the notion of beans, especially pole beans. Our favorites are Blue Lakes. For squash we grow delicatas, though they had a virus hit the main seed crops and are in short supply last year. Bummer. Another super easy green to grow is swiss chard. Very tender and tasty.


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## tjg911 (Jan 19, 2007)

Well the answer to that question is "what you like the most because it's a very limited space". Based upon your original choices some of those are possible, see below. 

For me, I'd have to say a couple of tomato plants because I love them, some carrots, parsley, lettuce/mesclun and swiss chard because these don't use much space and I can crowd them in between other things, a mini cabbage about 2 pounds at maturity and pole beans because they produce vast amounts of food all season. 

If you had the 4 X 8 bed for tomatoes, pole beans and cukes on the same trellis and 1 or 2 butternut squash that were allowed to grow out onto the lawn (these are vines that will grow to 12' long with 2 -3 fruits per vine) you could grow other things in containers. Eggplant, peppers would work. Yellow squash and zucchini may but they have extensive root systems and I don't think it'd work but I am not aware whether it has or has not been done. Tomatoes also have long roots and can be grown in a 5 gallon container but the yields are reduced and fruits are perhaps a bit smaller so in adddition to watering them each day I stopped and went back to the garden.

Tom


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 19, 2007)

I second tjg's suggestions, both on letting the squash grow out into the lawn, as well as using a trellis to get more vertical use out of your limited space.

Here's a photo of my garden from last summer. Note that the tomato plants are in standard tomato cages while the pole beans and peas (foreground) are growing up a trellis made of bird netting suspended from a thin steel cable. You save lots of bed space with a trellis, since most of the plant's mass is growing vertically. You can do the same with most squash (though not zuccini), cukes, etc. Trellised plants do create shade, however, so you need to put them in a place where they won't shade other plants--or shade plants that can take it.


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## tjg911 (Jan 19, 2007)

nice garden eric and all good points.

tom


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## Webwidow (Jan 20, 2007)

Eric I am duly impressed with your fine looking garden. Last year was my 1st year for a garden in the new house. 10x10 raised bed. 
Dreamed of fresh salsa last winter. Now planning additional flower beds.
My garden:
Lots of tomatoes, never enough 'matoes.  :coolsmile: 
Carrots :coolsmile: 
Bush beans  :down: I think it got too hot and someone didn't water enough
Peppers never matured :sick: 
Swiss Chard
Japanese Eggplant   my best crop
mixed salad greens   
Basil & Cilantro in the flower bed


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## colsmith (Jan 20, 2007)

Forget the potatoes.  You need a lot of space to grow enough for any real purpose, and they are fairly cheap at the store and, IHMO, not that much better homegrown.  Grow tomatoes for sure, the taste difference with homegrown is so extreme.  Also, if you grow cucumbers, squash, and zucchini all near each other, you could be quite devasted by cucumber beetles and/or squash vine borers.  I would say grow cucumbers, and count on some gardening friend to give you zucchini.   Grow some greens, like spinach or lettuce, intermixed with radishes, unless you hate radishes.  They grow quickly, and after they are harvested then the tomatoes grow bigger and take up the space they were in.  If you are in the northwest, you don't have such hot summers, so things like peas, kohlrabi, lettuce, spinach, etc. (cool season things) will do well for you.  Everything you listed except maybe potatoes like the hot hot sunny weather, which I think you don't get that much of.  I could be confused, but someone said you were in the northwest.  

Also, if you like herbs, dill and cilantro are really simple to grow and attract bees to pollinate your other crops plus other good bugs.  If you stick a few marigolds around the edge of the bed, or onions, or nasturiums, that will help to repel bad bugs.  Nasturiums are pretty and you can eat the leaves and flowers.  Cilantro seeds are coriander, by the way, and all of the things I mentioned in this paragraph are easy to save seeds from for the next gardening season.  That helps save money, too.


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 20, 2007)

Lamentably, here's what it looks like after a heavy rain.

I have to keep the stuff that doesn't like wet feet up on the higher parts, until I can do something about the drainage.


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## begreen (Jan 20, 2007)

Marcia, while I agree that potatoes take room, there is no comparison with store bought. The flavor and texture just isn't there in the average store spud. Maybe it's the variety they grow, but since we started growing our own, it's hard to go back to the store stuff. 

Eric, that is such a sad sight, especially in comparison with the earlier shot. But hopefully this summer it will be sunshine all the way.  BTW, how are your tomatoes when they are mature? I never had much luck with tomato cages with the mature plants. Our plants average 5-6 ft tall.  For us, the cages have been too small and either became overwhelmed or tipped over due to the weight. Do you prune your tomatoes pretty vigorously?


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 20, 2007)

It looks a lot worse than it is, BG. Everything stays put and the water drains right out pretty quickly. Usually it only happens in the spring and fall and is submerged for less than a day, but we did get a rain like that last summer when everything was in full bloom, and everybody suvived. Added a few points to my blood pressure, however. Were I retired, or otherwise unemcumbered by a regular job, I'd turn that big lawn in the background into a little truck farm and get a stand at the farmer's market which is about a block down the street on the town square. This was all productive farmland back in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries.

I don't prune the tomatos as aggressively as I should, and I tend to give them too much compost and worm casting tea, so they get a little leggy and bushy. The regular tomatos will pull the cages over if I don't hold them up with steel fence posts when they start bearing fruit. About half of the tomatos I grow are different varieties of cherries, and they're usually OK. The fridge at work is always full of beans and cherry tomatos in the late summer. That means I don't have to come up with fruitcake around Christmas.

Thanks for all the compliments, by the way. Seems I'm always trying to make it better, but never quite get it exactly right. One time, years ago, I was in the bank getting a car loan and the loan officer was asking about assets. The first thing that came to mind was the garden--specifically, the soil. It beat out the wood pile!


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## Roospike (Jan 20, 2007)

I've not heard of trimming tomato plants when mature , not to say it shouldn't be done.
What i do is buy the 50' rolls of concrete rebar mesh and cut it to 13 squares and roll them and hook them together. Put the roll over the plant when small , place a stake in the ground next to them and zip tie the steak to the cage and as the plant grows you bring up the branches.

Our tomato plants always get 6' tall and we dont have an issue with plants falling over nor do we have to trim the plants.


The only pic i could find of just the tomato cages that you can actually see the cages. ( in the snow ) pictured is 16 of the 24 cages.

Pictured is the tomato plants in the cages ( hard to see ) and the tomato plants are about 60% of total height of mature.


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## Roospike (Jan 20, 2007)

Found another pic of the garden showing the tomato cages.


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## kevinmoelk (Jan 20, 2007)

Just wanted to pop in and say thank you to everyone for all the suggestions.  I'd write more, but don't have too much to add at this point.  Enjoying sitting back, reading and learning.

-Kevin


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## begreen (Jan 21, 2007)

Roospike said:
			
		

> I've not heard of trimming tomato plants when mature , not to say it shouldn't be done.
> What i do is buy the 50' rolls of concrete rebar mesh and cut it to 13 squares and roll them and hook them together. Put the roll over the plant when small , place a stake in the ground next to them and zip tie the steak to the cage and as the plant grows you bring up the branches.
> 
> Our tomato plants always get 6' tall and we dont have an issue with plants falling over nor do we have to trim the plants.
> ...



That'll work. Looks great. 

Tomatoes will produce more fruit if the sucker growth is pruned off early and consistently. We have a cooler summers which makes it harder to set tomatoes. So we give them all the help we can. In the late summer, we get night fogs that can really bring on blight and mildew fast. By mid-Sept. we strip the plant down to what is strictly producing fruit. If they make it, we can still be harvesting in late Oct. due to the late frosts. Most years our goal is to still have a few tomatoes from the garden on the table until Christmas. Granted we're eating tomatoes that were picked green and ripened indoors, but it's still a treat. Can't wait to get the greenhouse built. Then I'm shooting for year round cherry tomatoes.


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 21, 2007)

Yes, very nice, Roo. Standard cages get a little weak in the legs, since they taper down as they near the ground, which makes them tippy. If I didn't have a million old cages laying around (the guy I bought the house from grew nothing but chemical tomatos), I'd do what you're doing.

I always start out intending to aggresively trim the suckers off my plants, but at some point they start growing so fast--along with everything else in the garden--that I get overwhelmed and give up.

We can get a frost around here as early as September, so big tomatos can be a crap shoot, but it's always worth the risk. In my experience, what tomatos need to grow mature fruit is hot nights. That's a tough order for Seattle, and hit & miss for upstate NY. My parents in central Wisconsin are sick of eating ripe tomatos by the time mine are ready to eat off the vine. Growing ripe tomatos in a greenhouse is tricker than you might think. You have to crank up the heat at night, which is something I'm not usually willing to do. And I always get thick skins, for some reason--maybe from the cool nights.

Here's what the garden looked like yesterday morning. Below zero here today.


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## kevinmoelk (Jan 24, 2007)

Too tired to read all the way through this thread, lol.  Has anyone every grown sweet potatoes?

-Kevin


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## Bushfire (Jan 24, 2007)

Here in CT we've tried sweet potatoes once.  Won't try again.  Although I love them, I don't think we really have the climate to get good results.  We got tubers, but they were small and few and far between.  I do grow the ornamental ones every year in pots as they are great foliage plants that spill over the edge of pots and give a great display.


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## begreen (Jan 24, 2007)

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> We can get a frost around here as early as September, so big tomatos can be a crap shoot, but it's always worth the risk. In my experience, what tomatos need to grow mature fruit is hot nights. That's a tough order for Seattle, and hit & miss for upstate NY. My parents in central Wisconsin are sick of eating ripe tomatos by the time mine are ready to eat off the vine. Growing ripe tomatos in a greenhouse is tricker than you might think. You have to crank up the heat at night, which is something I'm not usually willing to do. And I always get thick skins, for some reason--maybe from the cool nights.
> 
> Here's what the garden looked like yesterday morning. Below zero here today.



Beautiful winter shots. When I was in mid-NY a few weeks ago, it was shirtsleeve weather and we were in the deep-freeze. Well we are in a run of sunny days in the 50's so I'm not complaining, except that this is our false spring which means that I need to get pruning and domant spray going. 

You are so right about the nightime heat. Maybe I should build a black, cement block wall behind our tomatoes. Hmmm, that's a thought.


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 30, 2007)

I was going through some old pics and came across this view of the garden from the opposite side. I like the snow, but this pic jogged my memory about why I love the warm weather so much. Some of those carrots are still in the ground. I've gotta run out and dig a few up before it gets dark!

This is a raised-bed garden, but I put sawdust into the walkways so that we can hang around there in our bare feet. The sawdust also helps retain moisture, harbors worms (for some reason), and most importantly--gives me a place to stash the sawdust from my various wood-processing operations. Back when I used to buy loads of logs and cut firewood in my yard, I'd add compost to the beds every year and sawdust to the walkways, and the garden elevation would increase accordingly. The wooden bed frames are just pallet lumber nailed to stakes, so as the rest of the garden grows in height, you just pull the frames up as needed with a pliers. The only downside is that eventually the fence will get buried.


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## colsmith (Feb 6, 2007)

Sweet potatoes - I grew them once, but it was when I was living in Puerto Rico, so that probably isn't comparable to where you live.  They grow really well in PR, but you have to water them a lot since it is so hot hot hot there all the time.  I just stuck tubers I had that were trying to grow in the pantry into the ground.  Worked out fine.


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## cottonwoodsteve (Feb 6, 2012)

Plant same thing at different times a few weeks apart.
That way you don't have droughts and floods of vegetable. 
This may prevent you having to drop bags of Zucinni on the neighbors door steps in the middle of the night
This may not work is some short seasons. Also some things that may do well in early summer may not do well in mid summer.
So basically staggered planting will  even harvest out but not as well as you would think.

As far as potatoes I am going to try them in buckets this year. I planted them in the ground last year and damage to much of my meger crop trying to dig them up.

Try Spaghetti Squash if they do well in your area
They are very hard and normal kitchen knives have a hard time splitting them in half. Bake them in the oven until the edges start burning.
Then you take something that was hard as a rock and now scrape out spaghetti noodles. Goes well with spaghetti sauce and beef stroganough sauce.


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## SolarAndWood (Feb 6, 2012)

I love these old garden threads especially this time of year.  Less than 2 months and it will be prep time.


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## timfromohio (Feb 6, 2012)

Amen to that!  I was circling items in the Baker Creek catalogue yesterday.  With the non-winter we are having, I've been starting to clean up some beds that didn't get cleaned up in the Fall due to excessive rainfall.


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## begreen (Feb 6, 2012)

Yep. It looks like we may be able to get an early start this year too. We've just had a string of nice 55+ Â°F days. Last year we didn't see these temps until mid-March.


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## timfromohio (Feb 6, 2012)

We'll hit almost 50F here and it's sunny - I live in NEOhio, at least, that's what I've been told ....  

I'm hoping that this odd weather is not indicative of a weird, overly-wet spring.


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## Wood Duck (Feb 6, 2012)

It has been very unseasonably nice here but even my drier-than-average  yard isn't dry enough for me to work the soil in any garden beds. i'll get them ready as soon as conditions permit in case we have another rainy spring.


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## lukem (Feb 6, 2012)

Yep...old thread, but gonna post anyway.

Planted some left-over lettuce and pea seeds last weekend, just to see what will happen.  Starting the 'maters this weekend, and peppers soon to follow.  Got the itch for sure.

Have a bunch of fruit trees, grapes, and asparugus on order.  Gonna be busy this spring.


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## valley ranch (Feb 7, 2012)

We grow much of our food. Last year we built a greenhouse. Our main home is in the mountains at 6800ft, nights can be cold. It, the greenhouse, supplied all our greens for a family of 4. 
We grew many things that would never fruit or ripen up here without the greenhouse. We had bellpeppere, wax peppers, tomatos, peas, beans, lettice, beets and many other things.


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## valley ranch (Feb 7, 2012)

The gardens in your pictures are beautiful, good for you. We will be planting at our other ranch this year. The temp is hot in the summer, we are looking forward to it.


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