# Tiny Wood Stove In a Tiny House - Confirming Issues



## OffGridTinyHome (Nov 12, 2017)

Hello,

This is my first time posting in here. I browsed the forums for a bit and found lots of answers to confirm that indeed I have some issues with my wood stove, and that MOST of my guesses on what I need to do are correct. What I am looking for is confirmation.... "If its worth doing, its worth doing right" kinda thinking... im about to pay for not doing things right the first time and I sure as heck want to make sure I do the overhaul right this time. 

Ok, so lets brief you on the situation! I designed and built an off-grid tiny house. Our primary heating system is a cubic mini-wood stove, the grizzly model. Here is a link to details and specs:
https://cubicminiwoodstoves.com/col...210/products/cb-1210-br-cubic-mini-wood-stove

I have been burning the wood stove for 7 months, but really only have started using it in the past ~month as temperatures have dropped here in Alberta, Canada. (its -20C out at night... -4F). 

I am having several issues and think I know what to do... lets see what you gents and gals think... Here is a pic and the issues:
	

		
			
		

		
	







*Issue #1: *I am having condensation/water drip down the pipe both when the stove is running (more) and also when it is not running (less). The dripping is obviously happening on the outside of the pipe as you can see (seems to be dripping from the rain cap and hitting the pipe.) What you dont see in this pic is that this dripping is becoming an issue inside the house! Brown water is dripping in from the connection spots and the metal tape is not able to seal it. 

I haven't ruled out that the wood is the right moisture level, but im burning birch that was sheltered for 2 years and pallet wood for kindling, so Im thinking this is not the primary issue. That the stove pipe is dripping when we haven't run the stove that day is confirmation of this. 
I know I need to have the male end of the pipes always facing down, which I do where I can. I say "where I can" because the elbows require male ends on both sides. So as the pipe goes horizontal to go inside the house the male ends are facing the "wrong" way - Which brings me to my first question - *1) How do I stop water in this situation where the orientation alone seems to be impossible to design water against as there has to be connections. And how do you orient male connection correctly with elbows?? Here is an image of the drips at their worst:*
*



*
That's a lot of condensation right?! I literally have a bread pan to catch the drip and have to empty it every few days and in this pic above (happened this bad yesterday for the 1st time thus why I'm reaching out for help) we actually had another drip creeping out from the connection where where the pipe meets the stove (drip 3). Which is a huge concern because that will be hard to fix.... my plumber blow torched that pipe end to make it expand, just so it would fit on to the end of the stove, it is VERY snug and wont be easy to take off... but as we all can see, it is a classic example of the male connection going UP into the pipe, instead of a pipe going down into the stove connection. So I think its safe to presume that should any water ever come down the pipe it will try to get out at this joint. Which brings me to *question #2 - What are your guys opinions on what to do at drip 3 location if anything?
*
Alright so I have outlined a lot of things, im sure you have lots of thoughts, but hear out this last variable which im guessing is one of the largest issues. When I bought this stove, they only sold single wall flu pipe. Its 3".... which apparently is a specialty product as not a single store in my area sells 3", let alone double wall 3". 

Low and behold NOW the company I bought this stove (and the single wall flu pipe) sells double wall 3" pipe. Here is the new product:
https://cubicminiwoodstoves.com/col...4-ss-24-stainless-steel-double-wall-flue-pipe

I couldnt help but notice they now no longer sell elbows, and they also include in the fine print on this new product "_We suggest to exit straight up and out the roof. For that reason, we do not have elbows for our flue pipes." _So now im feeling a bit hooped... I cant really change the design of the flu system now. My best guess to help myself is this:

Buy the double wall flu pipe from the company above anyways... try to find new/better elbows that fits the double wall flu... somewhere....

Then connect the double wall to the single wall flu pipe as it exits the house (that could be an interesting connection). Where the elbow is that goes from horizontal back to vertical, what are your thoughts on having a T connection so that water coming down the stove can be captured here??? Not sure if such a product exists but it would be easier to have a water trap here. 

Alright, thats all I got. If you can help answer the 2 questions, and give me your suggestions for redesigning the flu system that would be greatly appreciated... I look forward to hearing your ideas before I order the expensive double wall 3" flu sections. 

Thanks in advance,

K


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## webby3650 (Nov 12, 2017)

I don’t have experience with your tiny stove. Galvanized pipe is not what you should be using for the flue though. I’m also confused as to why your elbows are crimped in both ends, like other warm air pipe, it has a make and a female end.

What pipe does the manufacturer recommend using?


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## OffGridTinyHome (Nov 12, 2017)

webby3650 said:


> I don’t have experience with your tiny stove. Galvanized pipe is not what you should be using for the flue though. I’m also confused as to why your elbows are crimped in both ends, like other warm air pipe, it has a make and a female end.
> 
> What pipe does the manufacturer recommend using?



Hi Webby,

The pipe I have was the pipe the manufacturer sold off their website with the stove, so it was what they recommended. The pipe I linked in my 1st message is what they apparently recommend now. 

The elbows I have now are the ones they used to sell and they no longer sell them. The elbows are not crimped on either side, you stick the crimped male end of the flu pipe into both ends of the elbow, thus one end will face the wrong direction to discourage water getting outside the pipe. 

I too am confused why the elbows had 2 female ends, but at the time of install, I didnt know any better and my plumber who had experience installing wood stoves did not mention anything.


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## webby3650 (Nov 12, 2017)

OffGridTinyHome said:


> Hi Webby,
> 
> The pipe I have was the pipe the manufacturer sold off their website with the stove, so it was what they recommended. The pipe I linked in my 1st message is what they apparently recommend now.
> 
> ...


Well, if he had much experience he would have known better. He also would have mentioned the health concerns with galvanized steel offgassing.


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## electrathon (Nov 12, 2017)

I am figuring that you will soon get a poo storm for what you did here.  Many reasons for this, some valid, some so, so.

What I would do in your situation...  Not saying this is legal or code.  You are neither now, but you are also very unsafe currently.  Two options.  One is to get chimney pipe for a boat wood stove.  This is the best option, very expensive.  I am going to assume you are not going to go that direction.  That said, go to an exhaust shop and buy 3" exhaust pipe.  Weld your seams.  Solid chimney.  It will last for years.  If you burn wet wood you will have creosote buildup issues.  The pipe you have is too big for your stove.  the large pipe will make draft issues.  It should be matched to your stove.

You have ventilation/moisture issues in your house causing the dripping.  This is a separate issue than the fire hazard you currently have.  The moist air in your house is being drawn up the cold chimney, condensing and dripping back inside.


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## Doc C (Nov 12, 2017)

It seems you have a conundrum.....the proper way would be too find new pipe that is made for wood stoves. I think the people that sold your stove and pipe did not know at the time what they were doing.

I would not want to live in a tiny home with that much heat going through galvanized pipe.

There is an old saying that everything is poisonous and nothing is poisonous, it’s the dose that determines what is poison.

Being in that small of an area with galvanized pipe off gassing can’t be healthy. Maybe there is a point where galvanized pipe becomes safe when heated but I am not 100% sure on that.

Slight fire hazard with creosote dripping down the pipe.

I am not sure how you can make what you have safe and usable and without issues.

Also I beleive that the condensation issue will go away when you get rid of the galvanized pipe.

My vote would be to replace all of it and go straight out the roof is that is an option even if it means more work.

And I don’t have a solution to repair what you have.


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## OffGridTinyHome (Nov 12, 2017)

I just double checked my order from the company and it is stainless steel, not galvanized. 

Thanks for your advice Electrathon and Doc C. I crack the nearby window when running the fire, but it is still possible that moisture from inside the house is going up the chimney when burning. I had also installed that dampener seen in the pics and would close both it and the air intake for the stove to stop air leaving the house (and causing condensation), but its possible the air still is going that way and thus the drip issue even when we arent running the stove. 

Electrathon - The pipe is 3" and that is the size it is supposed to have. 

I could look into trying to go straight up through the roof but that would be quite a redesign. Im not sure how that would fix the moisture though...


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## Doc C (Nov 12, 2017)

OffGridTinyHome said:


> I just double checked my order from the company and it is stainless steel, not galvanized.
> 
> Thanks for your advice Electrathon and Doc C. I crack the nearby window when running the fire, but it is still possible that moisture from inside the house is going up the chimney when burning. I had also installed that dampener seen in the pics and would close both it and the air intake for the stove to stop air leaving the house (and causing condensation), but its possible the air still is going that way and thus the drip issue even when we arent running the stove.
> 
> ...



Wood stoves naturally make a house have less humidity. I would think a tiny house would dry out faster.

Do you have access to a humidity gauge you can set up in your house for a little bit and let us know.

I wondering if it’s moisture from within the wood or within the house


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## OffGridTinyHome (Nov 12, 2017)

Good idea. I have an Ecobee thermostat with a humidity indicator. Its at 47% right now and we have been running the wood stove all morning. (fire just finished dying out). Ill keep an eye on it in the next couple days and report back. We also do have an HRV called a Lunos Ego2 which is constantly moving air in and out of the house.


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## bholler (Nov 12, 2017)

What you have is not chimney pipe it is uninsulated which means it will cool quickly and creat massive ammouts of creosote.  Call the company and demand your money back and get a real chimney system from someone who knows what they are doing.  I am sorry to be so blunt but who ever sold you that as a chimney should be put out of buisness it is rediculous.


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## Doc C (Nov 12, 2017)

OffGridTinyHome said:


> Good idea. I have an Ecobee thermostat with a humidity indicator. Its at 47% right now and we have been running the wood stove all morning. (fire just finished dying out). Ill keep an eye on it in the next couple days and report back. We also do have an HRV called a Lunos Ego2 which is constantly moving air in and out of the house.



Humidity is around where i consider normal for heating with wood. 

Is the condensation coming from inside the pipe or is it forming on the outside of the pipe? 

Bholler brought up a good point. I’m pretty sure a few phone calls are in order. The people that sold you that pipe should be shot.


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## bholler (Nov 12, 2017)

Doc C said:


> Humidity is around where i consider normal for heating with wood.
> 
> Is the condensation coming from inside the pipe or is it forming on the outside of the pipe?
> 
> Bholler brought up a good point. I’m pretty sure a few phone calls are in order. The people that sold you that pipe should be shot.


I am currently trying to figure out who to report them to in canada.


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## Doc C (Nov 12, 2017)

bholler said:


> I am currently trying to figure out who to report them to in canada.



That’s a bad deal. My guess is the stove company jumped on the tiny house bandwagon and knew nothing about wood stoves, found some random parts, and threw them into a kit and called it good. Not cool


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## bholler (Nov 12, 2017)

Doc C said:


> That’s a bad deal. My guess is the stove company jumped on the tiny house bandwagon and knew nothing about wood stoves, found some random parts, and threw them into a kit and called it good. Not cool


No it really isnt.  I have seen some really scary stuff dont by tiny house guys.  There are 3 companies here that build them and 2 of them do some really scary stuff for heating.


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## electrathon (Nov 12, 2017)

I was at a tiny house show this morning (in Portland Oregon) and there was a guy there selling Salamander stoves (tinystoves.shop) telling people they are legal to install.  I asked a few questions and he sort of said they are legal in the EU so that makes them legal in the USA too sense their standards are stricter than ours and to not worry about the local codes because they do not matter.  He was using a few of the code words that are like loopholes when you press for better answers. It sounds similar to what happened to this guy.  

The moisture inside the pipe is being drawn out of the home and into the pipe, condensing and dripping back in.  I am guessing this is happening when the stove is off.  Trailers and small spaces are notorious for moisture issues.  47% humidity sounds high to me if it is below freezing outside. I have seen 2" of ice buildup inside of a poorly insulated/vapor barriered wall up in Alaska in the winter time.  Humidity can cause a lot of issues in a house in cold climates.  Cooking, bathing, breathing all add to the problem.


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## Doc C (Nov 12, 2017)

electrathon said:


> I was at a tiny house show this morning (in Portland Oregon) and there was a guy there selling Salamander stoves (tinystoves.shop) telling people they are legal to install.  I asked a few questions and he sort of said they are legal in the EU so that makes them legal in the USA too sense their standards are stricter than ours and to not worry about the local codes because they do not matter.  He was using a few of the code words that are like loopholes when you press for better answers. It sounds similar to what happened to this guy.
> 
> The moisture inside the pipe is being drawn out of the home and into the pipe, condensing and dripping back in.  I am guessing this is happening when the stove is off.  Trailers and small spaces are notorious for moisture issues.  47% humidity sounds high to me if it is below freezing outside. I have seen 2" of ice buildup inside of a poorly insulated/vapor barriered wall up in Alaska in the winter time.  Humidity can cause a lot of issues in a house in cold climates.  Cooking, bathing, breathing all add to the problem.



My humidity sits right at 40% in my 1960 square foot house. Kind of figured 47% would be about normal for a tiny house. Also with his HRV I have a feeling that his humidity is influenced more by outside air then most of us.


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## electrathon (Nov 12, 2017)

Doc C said:


> My humidity sits right at 40% in my 1960 square foot house. Kind of figured 47% would be about normal for a tiny house. Also with his HRV I have a feeling that his humidity is influenced more by outside air then most of us.


It really depends on outside temp.  If it is 10 degrees outside then humidity is almost nil, it is all frozen.  At 35 degrees you will have a lot of humidity.  It took me a long time to get used to this change when I moved from Alaska to Oregon.


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## Doc C (Nov 12, 2017)

I think the answer to almost all of these problems is the proper pipe that allows creosote and moisture to follow the proper path.

As far as the condensation fix maybe running bath fan more often and trying to get the humidity to drop.

I see a water kettle on the stove. If you are adding humidity on purpose with this I would probably try not keeping water in it. 

Maybe target less then 40% after you replace the pipe and see if that helps. Go to low and you'll be dealing with static and dry nose and throat and stuff some there is a balance to be found.


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## Hogwildz (Nov 13, 2017)

I just skimmed through the posts, sorry if this was touched on, but by the looks of the creosote running down the piping, I would guess to say the pipe is run backwards. When properly run, any dripping happens inside the pipe running down & into the stove, rather than out each joint.

If you can manage to run the pipe up through the roof, you will suffer less condensation as the pipe will be in conditioned space and not as cold to cause the condensation.

Properly run piping, with correct pipe, should not need tape of any kind. That tape will do nothing, and the tape above the stove is not going to last very long.

Out of curiosity, can you share photos of the rest of the house.


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## SuperJ (Nov 13, 2017)

Wow, that's a tiny stove.  You don't really get how small it is until you see the guys holding it on their website.

I agree with Hogwildz, if the fittings are properly orientated (so the female openings point up and the male down towards the stove), any condensation or liquid creosote should stay in the pipe.

How are you controlling the fire?  If you are closing that damper above the stove you will probably create even more problems.

A couple observations not necessarily related to the root of your creosote dripping problem.

That inside slide damper above the stove looks like it might not be appropriate
the pipe looks stainless, but it doesn't seem like a good replacement for a outside class A chimney.  But to go that small your in uncharted waters.
Hard to tell, but it looks like your upper sections of pipe need another support above the roof line.


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## SuperJ (Nov 13, 2017)

The instructions for the pipe on their website is suspect.  Looks upside down.
https://cubicminiwoodstoves.com/col...4-ss-24-stainless-steel-double-wall-flue-pipe


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## OffGridTinyHome (Nov 14, 2017)

Doc C said:


> I think the answer to almost all of these problems is the proper pipe that allows creosote and moisture to follow the proper path.
> 
> As far as the condensation fix maybe running bath fan more often and trying to get the humidity to drop.
> 
> ...



I have been watching the moisture since I posted this thread and it fluctuates between 40%-55% depending on what we are doing in the house. I have the ability to control the HRVs rate of air exchange so I will start managing the moisture more with that system. Im wondering if a de-humidifier is also in order...

And thanks for the tip re the kettle. Indeed I bought it because someone told me I might need to ADD moisture to the air haha. Honestly, I never fill the darn thing as it boils off quickly. I will be sure to get rid of it now as its seemingly going to be purely decoration


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## OffGridTinyHome (Nov 14, 2017)

Hogwildz said:


> I just skimmed through the posts, sorry if this was touched on, but by the looks of the creosote running down the piping, I would guess to say the pipe is run backwards. When properly run, any dripping happens inside the pipe running down & into the stove, rather than out each joint.
> 
> If you can manage to run the pipe up through the roof, you will suffer less condensation as the pipe will be in conditioned space and not as cold to cause the condensation.
> 
> ...



Sure! We havent done a share with the larger tiny house community yet but have showed the house off at the Edmonton Home and Garden show. 

We did share some of our story designing and building the house at Edmontontiny.wordpress.com but we havent written on there in a while. Lifes been busy!


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## OffGridTinyHome (Nov 14, 2017)

SuperJ said:


> Wow, that's a tiny stove.  You don't really get how small it is until you see the guys holding it on their website.
> 
> I agree with Hogwildz, if the fittings are properly orientated (so the female openings point up and the male down towards the stove), any condensation or liquid creosote should stay in the pipe.
> 
> ...



The damper above the stove is only used to stop cold air from flowing back down into the house when the fire isnt in use. I control the fire with the inside slide dampener and the secondary burn lever. And of course cracking the door. 

Honestly, after what everyone here has been saying, im debating rehauling the system and making the pipe run inside the house with A1 or the double wall piping I can buy from the original company... It will mean I will lose a corner of my loft space and have to rip a hole in my roof.... a spring/summer job to be sure so I guess no wood stove this winter.


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## bholler (Nov 14, 2017)

OffGridTinyHome said:


> The damper above the stove is only used to stop cold air from flowing back down into the house when the fire isnt in use. I control the fire with the inside slide dampener and the secondary burn lever. And of course cracking the door.
> 
> Honestly, after what everyone here has been saying, im debating rehauling the system and making the pipe run inside the house with A1 or the double wall piping I can buy from the original company... It will mean I will lose a corner of my loft space and have to rip a hole in my roof.... a spring/summer job to be sure so I guess no wood stove this winter.


I would not buy anything from that company.   Even the double wall they are selling as flue pipe looks just like connector pipe to me I don't see any insulation at all there just an air space.  Get your self a real chimney system that is tested and approved for your application.  I have no idea about their stoves but they have no business selling chimneys.


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## moresnow (Nov 14, 2017)

? on the last pic. What is the significance of the "sage" seen in the pic?


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## Timberwolf530 (Nov 14, 2017)

Wow, nothing about this install looks safe.  I'm not slamming you because obviously you wouldn't just inherently know how to do this correctly, but it looks like you've been given some bad information, and this install actually looks pretty dangerous.  Let's start from the inside out.  #1. Is your steel heat shield installed right up against your drywall, or is there and air gap?  It looks like it is right up against it, which will conduct heat right through to the wall.  #2. They told you to install the flue pipe upside down.  The crimped side of the flue pipe should always go down inside the one below it. If you have a chimney fire (which is pretty likely eventually by the looks of it), its going to catch fire on the inside and the outside increasing the risk of catching the house on fire.  They also told you to use the wrong kind of pipe. 3. You should have double wall pipe outside the house, this will help keep heat in the flue, protect the side of the house from heat, and reduce creosote. 4. If you have that much creosote running down the outside of your pipe, the inside has to be completely coated.  I would not have another fire in that stove the way it looks.  That's a chimney fire just waiting to happen.  5. Finally, how high does your pipe go outside?  If it is within 10 feet of the roof peak, it needs to be 2 feet higher than the peak (or those solar panels if you have the those like the model shown does). If it is more than 10 ft away from the peak, it needs to be 2 ft higher than the edge of the roof.  This is will assure a proper draft.  Also, the straighter the pipe, the better the draft.  It would be better if you can install it straight up through the roof.  Good luck, and I seriously would not have another fire in that until it is fixed.

EDIT: I looked on their website, and I guess what you have may be double wall, but it doesn't look like it probably does much if any better than a single wall pipe the way its made.


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## Woody5506 (Nov 14, 2017)

Stuff like this gives me anxiety and is why I paid top dollar for stove/install by a certified professional. I know we all have a budget but man I guess I'm just paranoid about live fire running in my house 24/7.


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## Wilbursan (Nov 14, 2017)

I had a professional installer and they told me they were installing double wall stove pipe and didn't and then didn't put all the screws in (thanks for the info on that Squisher!). They also did not meet code in the attic. There is supposed to be 2" of clearance between the chimney and anything flammable and the box they mounted it in has only 1.5" of clearance on one side. They also didn't put anything on it to keep the insulation off the pipe, which isn't required where I live, but damn, who wouldn't do that if they knew about it? I had to dig the insulation out of the box so I could sleep at night.



Woody5506 said:


> Stuff like this gives me anxiety and is why I paid top dollar for stove/install by a certified professional. I know we all have a budget but man I guess I'm just paranoid about live fire running in my house 24/7.


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## Woody5506 (Nov 14, 2017)

Wilbursan said:


> I had a professional installer and they told me they were installing double wall stove pipe and didn't and then didn't put all the screws in (thanks for the info on that Squisher!). They also did not meet code in the attic. There is supposed to be 2" of clearance between the chimney and anything flammable and the box they mounted it in has only 1.5" of clearance on one side. They also didn't put anything on it to keep the insulation off the pipe, which isn't required where I live, but damn, who wouldn't do that if they knew about it? I had to dig the insulation out of the box so I could sleep at night.




Bummer.


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## Woodenboat (Nov 14, 2017)

I have this stove on my sailboat. The way we run these on boats is basically with all the chimney inside the boat and a DP cap outside. I have never seen that problem on a boat and I am guessing the fact that we have pretty much no setup exposed to the elements outside is partly responsible for this. The other part of the answer is that when the winter comes, we're not on the boats and don't use the stove.
I would try to install the chimney inside your house and exit through the roof. Dickinson makes a fitting that will deal with the transition on your roof.


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## Squisher (Nov 14, 2017)

bholler said:


> I am currently trying to figure out who to report them to in canada.



They state it's uncertified , for recreational use only. There are installation requirements for uncertified appliances and this install is very far from meeting any of them I don't see how it ever could. 48" to start all the way around the sides for basic clearance to combustibles.

At best someone could call them and try to recommend they hire a WETT professional to assist them in their product line or take some WETT training themselves.


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## bholler (Nov 14, 2017)

Woodenboat said:


> I have this stove on my sailboat. The way we run these on boats is basically with all the chimney inside the boat and a DP cap outside. I have never seen that problem on a boat and I am guessing the fact that we have pretty much no setup exposed to the elements outside is partly responsible for this. The other part of the answer is that when the winter comes, we're not on the boats and don't use the stove.
> I would try to install the chimney inside your house and exit through the roof. Dickinson makes a fitting that will deal with the transition on your roof.


Do you have an actual chimney though or is it just some stove pipe like the origonal poster?


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## Hogwildz (Nov 15, 2017)

OffGridTinyHome said:


> Sure! We havent done a share with the larger tiny house community yet but have showed the house off at the Edmonton Home and Garden show.
> 
> We did share some of our story designing and building the house at Edmontontiny.wordpress.com but we havent written on there in a while. Lifes been busy!
> 
> ...



Nice size for a tiny home. When transporting I assume you pull the panels & vent stack off?


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## Woodenboat (Nov 16, 2017)

bholler said:


> Do you have an actual chimney though or is it just some stove pipe like the origonal poster?



its just 304 SS single wall pipe bought from dickinson marine. To my knowledge, except for very large units on ships, none of the marine stove uses a true chimney systems.


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## Squisher (Nov 16, 2017)

This is a stove I was just reading about. The TN-10. 300-600 sq ft and certified. 

http://truenorthstoves.com/en/products/gas/tn10-wood-stove

True north is made by PE.


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## bholler (Nov 16, 2017)

Woodenboat said:


> its just 304 SS single wall pipe bought from dickinson marine. To my knowledge, except for very large units on ships, none of the marine stove uses a true chimney systems.


And why is that?  What clearances do they have?


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## Woodenboat (Nov 17, 2017)

bholler said:


> And why is that?  What clearances do they have?



you would have to look at the installation manual for each stove as clearances differ. 

these guys do a good job of refering to NFPA and other standards: http://www.marinestove.com/2015sardinemanual.pdf. But they say they use it as a basis. Other manufacturers, like cubic, have VERY poor documentation.

CSA 365 (in canada) is designed for building applications. There is no way to apply it to a boat. Just like diesel hot air furnace on sailboats do not comply with CSA B139.

It is a different world. Now, if you buy a marine marketed stove and put it in your house, that is a whole different story and you should refer to applicable installation standards.


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## electrathon (Nov 17, 2017)

Woodenboat said:


> its just 304 SS single wall pipe bought from dickinson marine. To my knowledge, except for very large units on ships, none of the marine stove uses a true chimney systems.


I find this issue incredibly interesting.  Why is it considered safe on a boat to use a different set of standards on a boat than on a land home?  Does fire burn differently on boats?  Are out of control fires less danger/concern on the water than on land?  Is this reason that a different person decided the standards on land than the person that decided land code?  If it is because a different person decided, common sense says one of the two are wrong or overstepping/under stepping what really should be done.


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## Woodenboat (Nov 17, 2017)

electrathon said:


> I find this issue incredibly interesting.  Why is it considered safe on a boat to use a different set of standards on a boat than on a land home?  Does fire burn differently on boats?  Are out of control fires less danger/concern on the water than on land?  Is this reason that a different person decided the standards on land than the person that decided land code?  If it is because a different person decided, common sense says one of the two are wrong or overstepping/under stepping what really should be done.




All valid quesitons for which I do not have the answers. 
That being said, the notion of danger/concern in buildings vs elsewhere is very interesting. The building Code has 1 priority from which everything is derived: occupant safety. Depending on how the building is classified (usage, construction type, combustible load, number of occupants, private vs public access, etc), the law applicable is more or less restrictive. For example, applicable regulation will usually be more strict for buildings receiving members of the public who do not occupy the building on a regular basis vs permanent employees that are expected to 'know' the premises up to a certain degree (shopping mall vs offices). A building with a large capacity will generally have more restrictive safety rules vs lesser capacity structures (opera house vs small commercial). A lot of things factor in. 

 An access hatch on a boat does not qualify as an egress if you follow the building code's guidelines and requirements. But it has the same use (exit the premises in case of an emergency). Is the risk the same if you are a stuck inside the boat or building? Is it more dangerous to exit a boat with exits not conforming to the building code? Should the egress in a boat be subjected to land regulation? All good questions.


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## Wilbursan (Nov 17, 2017)

I thank my lucky stars every day that there is no single person deciding what is good and right for us everywhere we go and live, be it air, land or sea. I can't imagine what kind of dysopian nightmare that would be. Please, don't give anyone any ideas.

Maybe if you Googled "leading causes of boat fires" you'd see why nobody seems to be concerned about it. I can't find a reference to wood stoves once. The closest is alcohol stoves and according to the link below that's about 1%. 87% is caused exactly how you'd think they would be caused on a boat - electrical, engine and fuel.

http://www.threesheetsnw.com/blog/2014/05/why-boats-catch-fire/


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## bholler (Nov 17, 2017)

Wilbursan said:


> I thank my lucky stars every day that there is no single person deciding what is good and right for us everywhere we go and live, be it air, land or sea. I can't imagine what kind of dysopian nightmare that would be. Please, don't give anyone any ideas.
> 
> Maybe if you Googled "leading causes of boat fires" you'd see why nobody seems to be concerned about it. I can't find a reference to wood stoves once. The closest is alcohol stoves and according to the link below that's about 1%. 87% is caused exactly how you'd think they would be caused on a boat - electrical, engine and fuel.
> 
> http://www.threesheetsnw.com/blog/2014/05/why-boats-catch-fire/





And chimneys are very far from the leading cause of house fires as well but that doesnt mean we should not pay attention to their safety.


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## bholler (Nov 17, 2017)

And if you saw some of the stuff i see that people do with stoves you may think that more people need to be told what they can do.


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## Wilbursan (Nov 17, 2017)

Not true. Heating fires cause 16% of all home fires and chimneys/fireplaces make up 1/3 of that. Thats over 5% of all house fires compared to some small fraction of 1% on boats.

http://www.nfpa.org/News-and-Resear...es/Appliances-and-equipment/Heating-equipment


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## bholler (Nov 17, 2017)

Wilbursan said:


> Not true. Heating fires cause 16% of all home fires and chimneys/fireplaces make up 1/3 of that. Thats over 5% of all house fires compared to some small fraction of 1% on boats.
> 
> http://www.nfpa.org/News-and-Resear...es/Appliances-and-equipment/Heating-equipment


How is what i said not true?  I said that house fires caused by chimneys were far from the leading cause.  And it is behind cooking appliances space heaters electrical intentional and smoking materials.  To me that is pretty far from the leading cause.


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## bholler (Nov 17, 2017)

Wilbursan said:


> I thank my lucky stars every day that there is no single person deciding what is good and right for us everywhere we go and live, be it air, land or sea. I can't imagine what kind of dysopian nightmare that would be. Please, don't give anyone any ideas.
> 
> Maybe if you Googled "leading causes of boat fires" you'd see why nobody seems to be concerned about it. I can't find a reference to wood stoves once. The closest is alcohol stoves and according to the link below that's about 1%. 87% is caused exactly how you'd think they would be caused on a boat - electrical, engine and fuel.
> 
> http://www.threesheetsnw.com/blog/2014/05/why-boats-catch-fire/


You also have to take into account the percentage of boats out there that are heated with wood stoves.  I dont know the percentage but i would bet it is pretty low.


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## Wilbursan (Nov 17, 2017)

bholler said:


> How is what i said not true?  I said that house fires caused by chimneys were far from the leading cause.  And it is behind cooking appliances space heaters electrical intentional and smoking materials.  To me that is pretty far from the leading cause.



True enough, but you also seemed to be implying that it was as small a number as boat fires. Otherwise I don't see why you would have brought it up.


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## Wilbursan (Nov 17, 2017)

bholler said:


> You also have to take into account the percentage of boats out there that are heated with wood stoves.  I dont know the percentage but i would bet it is pretty low.



Which is exactly my point and why we don't need an army of regulators brought in to get these people under control.


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## bholler (Nov 17, 2017)

Wilbursan said:


> True enough, but you also seemed to be implying that it was as small a number as boat fires. Otherwise I don't see why you would have brought it up.


I did not mean to imply that at all.  I was just saying that a potential fire hazard is a potential firehazard no matter how rarely it causes a fire in other situations does not mean the hazard should be overlooked.  

But without knowing the percentage of boats heated with wood the percentage of fires caused by it is meaningless.  If 1% of fires on boats are caused by wood stoves but only 5% of boats are heated with wood that makes the risk pretty high if you are heating your boat with wood.  And to be clear i am not saying those numbers are right at all just using them as hypotheticals.


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## bholler (Nov 17, 2017)

Wilbursan said:


> Which is exactly my point and why we don't need an army of regulators brought in to get these people under control.


What about if that stove is installed by a professional.  Dont you think they should have some standard to go by.  Or are you ok with them making it up as they go along?


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## bholler (Nov 17, 2017)

Wilbursan said:


> Which is exactly my point and why we don't need an army of regulators brought in to get these people under control.


You also have to look at the companies manufacturing and selling the components.  Should they be ably to make and sell anything they want and claim it is safe without testing it?  Look at the example in this post.  The op bought a chimney setup from what they thought was a reputable company.  But that company clearly sold them something that is unsafe.


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## Wilbursan (Nov 17, 2017)

bholler said:


> I did not mean to imply that at all.  I was just saying that a potential fire hazard is a potential firehazard no matter how rarely it causes a fire in other situations does not mean the hazard should be overlooked.
> 
> But without knowing the percentage of boats heated with wood the percentage of fires caused by it is meaningless.  If 1% of fires on boats are caused by wood stoves but only 5% of boats are heated with wood that makes the risk pretty high if you are heating your boat with wood.  And to be clear i am not saying those numbers are right at all just using them as hypotheticals.



So if one person sets his boat on fire doing something stupid and he's the only one that ever did it we're supposed to start passing laws about it since it's a 100% fire hazard? If this is some kind of commercial vessel where a bunch of innocent people get burned I could see it but that's not what we're talking about. It's a tiny problem, surely there must be something else more important to worry about.


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## Wilbursan (Nov 17, 2017)

bholler said:


> What about if that stove is installed by a professional.  Dont you think they should have some standard to go by.  Or are you ok with them making it up as they go along?



Professionals are helpless as babies without a government regulatory board to guide them?


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## bholler (Nov 17, 2017)

Wilbursan said:


> So if one person sets his boat on fire doing something stupid and he's the only one that ever did it we're supposed to start passing laws about it since it's a 100% fire hazard? If this is some kind of commercial vessel where a bunch of innocent people get burned I could see it but that's not what we're talking about. It's a tiny problem, surely there must be something else more important to worry about.


No if some one does something stupid and sets a fire that is one thing.  But if someone buys a system from a company that claims it is safe and that system causes a fire because it was not that is a problem.


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## Wilbursan (Nov 17, 2017)

bholler said:


> You also have to look at the companies manufacturing and selling the components.  Should they be ably to make and sell anything they want and claim it is safe without testing it?  Look at the example in this post.  The op bought a chimney setup from what they thought was a reputable company.  But that company clearly sold them something that is unsafe.



So sue them. Demand your money back. Post nasty comments about them online. So far we have one example of a company behaving this way and you want to drag in the government? All these regulations didn't stop the professionals from installing my stove pipe incorrectly or failing to meet code with the chimney in the chimney in the attic. I don't see why you think it will help here.


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## bholler (Nov 17, 2017)

Wilbursan said:


> Professionals are helpless as babies without a government regulatory board to guide them?


No they are not helpless but how many builders do you know that have the lab equipment needed to test for the required clearances on a chimney system?  Without anyone testing it they would simply be guessing.


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## Wilbursan (Nov 17, 2017)

bholler said:


> No if some one does something stupid and sets a fire that is one thing.  But if someone buys a system from a company that claims it is safe and that system causes a fire because it was not that is a problem.



It didn't cause a fire.


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## bholler (Nov 17, 2017)

Wilbursan said:


> So sue them. Demand your money back. Post nasty comments about them online. So far we have one example of a company behaving this way and you want to drag in the government? All these regulations didn't stop the professionals from installing my stove pipe incorrectly or failing to meet code with the chimney in the chimney in the attic. I don't see why you think it will help here.


What if that person died in that fire it is kind of hard for them to sue then isnt it.


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## bholler (Nov 17, 2017)

Wilbursan said:


> It didn't cause a fire.


What didnt cause a fire?


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## Wilbursan (Nov 17, 2017)

bholler said:


> What didnt cause a fire?



The stove that was the whole point of this thread. It didn't case a fire.

Look, this is a waste of time. Clearly you believe in creating regulations for things that haven't proven themselves to be a problem yet and I don't. I suggest we leave it at that.


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## bholler (Nov 17, 2017)

Wilbursan said:


> The stove that was the whole point of this thread. It didn't case a fire.
> 
> Look, this is a waste of time. Clearly you believe in creating regulations for things that haven't proven themselves to be a problem yet and I don't. I suggest we leave it at that.


No not yet but if they keep using it the way it is ot very well could.  And from what i could see it is installed according to the directions.  So do you think that that company should not be held accountable by someone for putting out an unsafe product?  Or is it only unsafe if it finally does cause a fire?  Does that fire have to kill someone for it to be a problem?


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Nov 18, 2017)

Wilbursan said:


> Which is exactly my point and why we don't need an army of regulators brought in to get these people under control.


Everything is regulated. I mean everything.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Nov 18, 2017)

OffGridTinyHome said:


> And thanks for the tip re the kettle. Indeed I bought it because someone told me I might need to ADD moisture to the air haha. Honestly, I never fill the darn thing as it boils off quickly. I will be sure to get rid of it now as its seemingly going to be purely decoration




Don't be too quick to get rid of it.  Fix your flue problems first, *then *decide if you need it.  Life will be different with a properly working flue.

You might want to contact these folks to see if they can advise you, or provide a decent flue for you.

http://www.marinestove.com/index.htm


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## Seasoned Oak (Nov 19, 2017)

I have to say that outside flue pipe looks like total crap, even without all the creosote running down im sure it takes away from the clean look of the house quite a bit.  No to mention it if it ever lit off, you would most likely burn the whole place down. That installation is crying out for a straight up thru the roof solution.


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## georgepds (Nov 19, 2017)

OP... Just a reminder.... make sure the metal sheet covering the walls is 1 inch off the wall. It is the air behind the sheet, and its free movement, that provides the insulation


The way it's set up it provides no insulation


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## Woodenboat (Nov 19, 2017)

bholler said:


> You also have to take into account the percentage of boats out there that are heated with wood stoves.  I dont know the percentage but i would bet it is pretty low.



Over here, the vast majority of people do not have a heating system on their boat. When they do, they will either have propane or diesel based systems because these are the fuels available on the boat (diesel for the engine, propane for the oven and bbq). Propane heating produces a lot of moisture in the cabin so it is less popular. It is also denser than air so I has the tendency to find its way into bilges if your have a leak and then things go 'boom'. Pretty much all the heated boats use espar forced air diesel systems, which are the same heaters used that the truck drivers to heat their sleeping cabins.
Wood stoves on boats are more of a romantic thing and people with modern boats have no interest at all in them. It's mostly the classic boat crowd that will use them. I'd be surprised if 1% of people with heating systems on boats ran a wood stove. And i would estimate maybe 10% of boats have heating in my area. So we are talking about a very small amount of boats here.


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## kml (Jan 15, 2018)

I would like to thank everyone for their input on this thread. I also purchased a Grizzly on March 2015 and am just getting around to installing it now in my tiny house on wheels. Single wall flue was ordered with the stove, but now is redundant.(Waste of money) Spent the last month scouring the internet trying to find pieces to install this correctly. It will be 90 inches to the ceiling, Dickensen deck fitting and 1@ 2ft.double wall and cap. Still waiting for double wall flue to arrive from Cubic Mini as I could not find anything else on the market. Looked at offerings from Tiny Wood Stoves but I already had the Dickensen deck fitting and cap. (Wasted too much money on buying useless stuff on initial order with stove) Learned a lot from this thread and Youtube on this subject and will try to piece together everything and not burn my house down. The initial thought is to start 1 single wall to radiate more heat,follow with 3 sections of double wall then the deck fitting and lastly 1 -  2 ft double wall and cap. Don't know if this will work as the parts are not here yet. ( They sell an adapter to mate the dual wall with the deck fitting) I will post again with pictures after my install.
I agree with the others on this thread and am very skeptical about installing the flue the way they (Cubic Mini). suggest, male up. This has been a very expensive learning curve for a novice like me. Put my faith and trust in the company making the stove to steer me on the right path for flue, but they don't know any more than I. (Originally selling single wall) After purchasing this stove the company sent me an email saying that they were in the process of getting the Grizzly, certified and would send me a certificate in a few months. Waited over 2 years and when I call them for it,they decided not to certify. How do you purchase insurance without a certificate?


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## maple1 (Jan 15, 2018)

Too bad the OP didn't come back.


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## begreen (Jan 15, 2018)

kml said:


> I would like to thank everyone for their input on this thread. I also purchased a Grizzly on March 2015 and am just getting around to installing it now in my tiny house on wheels. Single wall flue was ordered with the stove, but now is redundant.(Waste of money) Spent the last month scouring the internet trying to find pieces to install this correctly. It will be 90 inches to the ceiling, Dickensen deck fitting and 1@ 2ft.double wall and cap. Still waiting for double wall flue to arrive from Cubic Mini as I could not find anything else on the market. Looked at offerings from Tiny Wood Stoves but I already had the Dickensen deck fitting and cap. (Wasted too much money on buying useless stuff on initial order with stove) Learned a lot from this thread and Youtube on this subject and will try to piece together everything and not burn my house down. The initial thought is to start 1 single wall to radiate more heat,follow with 3 sections of double wall then the deck fitting and lastly 1 -  2 ft double wall and cap. Don't know if this will work as the parts are not here yet. ( They sell an adapter to mate the dual wall with the deck fitting) I will post again with pictures after my install.
> I agree with the others on this thread and am very skeptical about installing the flue the way they (Cubic Mini). suggest, male up. This has been a very expensive learning curve for a novice like me. Put my faith and trust in the company making the stove to steer me on the right path for flue, but they don't know any more than I. (Originally selling single wall) After purchasing this stove the company sent me an email saying that they were in the process of getting the Grizzly, certified and would send me a certificate in a few months. Waited over 2 years and when I call them for it,they decided not to certify. How do you purchase insurance without a certificate?


Sorry to hear that, what a pain in the butt. You'll have to discuss this with your insurance agent. Some companies are ok as long as the installation is inspected and others have stringent requirements including UL lab certification.


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