# My russian fireplace / masonry stove



## arcticcatmatt (Oct 21, 2008)

Hey all! My first post! 

I bought my first home this summer and it has a russian fireplace aka masonry stove. Anybody know more about the design of this one? I don't see any online exactly like it. 










Oh geeze, thats a crappy picture. I will take a new one tonight! 

It just has a entry door for the firebox and one clean out door above that. There is a sliding draft up top. Ignore them bigger pieces burning in the picture. That was when I was learning how to use it. I know them are too big now.


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## dumbodog00 (Oct 21, 2008)

I don't know the name of it, but I believe it is supposed to heat the brick surrounding the firebox and all other brick.  When it gets hot, it will give off a steady radiant heat for a long time, even after the fire goes out.


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## Dill (Oct 21, 2008)

Hey Matt.  (I'm also on SF with you)
You basically heating up the brick and then using it as a heat sink.
My grandfather built one is his house, and fired it with salvage pallet wood. He was  fan of quicker hotter fires.


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## arcticcatmatt (Oct 21, 2008)

^ Wow small world! Are you dill on there? 

Yeah I know what it is and how it works, I am wondering what the inside design could be. There are many designs online but I don't see this exact one.


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## Dill (Oct 21, 2008)

Yup I use the same idea as you. I'm always Dill.
As the builder the only masonary heaters I've run into are one offs, by masons.


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## Valhalla (Oct 21, 2008)

Europeans have used masonry "stoves" ovens for hundreds of years. You have a custom designed one here, as most are to fit the design of the house. Search the web for more info and also your town library, if you have an interest.

Good luck with it and burn it safely.


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## branchburner (Oct 21, 2008)

Pretty neat. I've looked at hundreds of photos over the past year and have seen nothing quite like that. I'm wondering - can't tell from the photo - are the bricks in the firebox ceramic, or just regular brick? Also curious if it holds and gives back heat with just a small fire as designed.

Did the previous owner give you any info on it - build it himself, or a local mason?

(You may already know this, but your wine glasses may tend to gather a bit of a greasy/dusty film if you don't have a good kitchen exhaust fan!)


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## Cath (Oct 21, 2008)

There are some masonry heater associations out there that may be able to help you.  

This one has a lot of useful information online:  http://mha-net.org/

Also, they recently added a Yahoo chat group for Masonry Heater owners.  Try Googling for that.  If you don't have any luck PM me and I'll try to dig up the link for you.

This may be a bit of a long shot, but depending upon the age of the house you might try contacting the building inspector and/or Fire Dept. to see if they have any information on file or if an inspector can tell you anything from memory, since this is somewhat out of the ordinary.

Oh, and definitely do some research and consider having it inspected, since if I remember correctly running it properly is important to preventing carbon monoxide poisoning.  Which brings me to another point, you should probably get a good carbon monoxide detector.

Good luck.
~Cath


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## Martin Strand III (Oct 21, 2008)

Historically, there are many styles of masonry heaters designed in different countries:  German, Russian, Swedish, Finnish and more - all popular in Europe going back centuries.

They all have some features in common:
*  Thermal mass - "tons" of masonry acts as a heat bank absorbing heat from the fire and slowly releasing it into the room hours later
*  Their 7000 - 12000 lb mass requires a solid free standing foundation down to bare earth - they cannot rely on floor joists for support; thus hard to add to an existing home
*  Long exit flame path containing at least one 180* turn - this provides masonry surface area for heat absorption
*  Clean burning - they all allow burning wood without damping down incoming air for more complete combustion and super hot spectacular fires
*  Inner masonry liners separated from an exterior veneer - this allows for thermal expansion between 'interior' and 'exterior' veneer and prevents cracking
*  Safety - the masonry releases heat slowly and surface temperatures usually are below 190* F preventing skin burns and allowing close wall tolerances
*  Etc.

I have a finnish designed "contraflow" masonry heater.  Its core was made by TempCast.  A mason added brick then tile for the veneer.  See it here:

https://www.hearth.com/gallery/pics/fireplaces/source/tilestove.html

The second chimney is for a basement Harman TLC 2000 wood/coal stove.

For more information, go to

http://www.mha-net.org/

Aye,
Marty

Addendum:  Masonry heaters are site built (some come in 'kits' for DIY) and fall under the general building code (like old fashioned fireplaces) and not under the mechanical code like metal stoves.


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## branchburner (Oct 21, 2008)

Marty S said:
			
		

> I have a finnish designed "contraflow" masonry heater.  Its core was made by TempCast.  A mason added brick then tile for the veneer.



How is that TempCast core working out? I was considering that. It's a few bucks, I hear.


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## Martin Strand III (Oct 21, 2008)

branchburner said:
			
		

> Marty S said:
> 
> 
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> ...



I haven't seen the core, except for the inside of the firebox, since it was assembled in 2004.  Judging from the crack free veneer, the incredible heat output (about 250,000 btu from 50 lbs of hardwood), less wood consumption over previous metal stoves I've owned, the cooking ability and the sheer joy of the fire - I'd say it's more than OK.

Bucks I paid in '04 are most likely different ones than you'd pay now.  If you're interested, check with TempCast.

Aye,
Marty


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## branchburner (Oct 21, 2008)

Marty S said:
			
		

> branchburner said:
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Yeah, they really sounded like the way to go, but couldn't plan it to mesh w/ my small ancient house. Thinking of building one outside then doing the addition around it. If the addition doesn't get done, at least I'll have a really nice (expensive) outdoor pizza oven!


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## gpcollen1 (Oct 21, 2008)

Now I am jealous all over again.  I am still thinking of retooling my downstairs fireplace into one of those but it needs a plan.  And I need to DIY it for it to mean anything to me...so it'll be a while.


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## branchburner (Oct 21, 2008)

DIY, yes. Ballpark 10k otherwise, I suspect.


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## Martin Strand III (Oct 21, 2008)

branchburner said:
			
		

> DIY, yes. Ballpark 10k otherwise, I suspect.



COSTS OF A MASONRY HEATER - Part I

“Today, many people think nothing of spending tens of thousands of dollars for an automobile that holds its value for a very short time.  But the investment in a masonry stove is truly rock solid.  As part of a home remodeling project or new home construction, masonry stoves easily pay for themselves -  in reduced heating costs, increased comfort, and added value to the home.”

http://www.fnaturalhomes.com/fountainheat.htm

Aye,
Marty
Grandma used to say:  "Everything is relative."


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## savageactor7 (Oct 21, 2008)

No offense but anyone that spends money on building one those heat sink stoves needs their head examined. 

White elephant.


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## Martin Strand III (Oct 21, 2008)

COSTS OF A MASONRY HEATER - Part II


Owners report that their investment in this heater has paid for itself in traditional home heating costs after only 6 heating seasons.

There is one other important if not vital thing to consider with talk of money and payback.

Anyone, with a masonry heater, is making a fractionally larger long-term payment, (added pro-rata principal and interest due to masonry heater), in return for receiving short-term benefits, such as decreased wood consumpton, a cleaner chimney, few needed replacement parts and a safe comfortable heat source which doesn’t need much tending so it’s a nice thing to have now. But if the world went to crap it would be great to have since you can get heat, cooking, and hot water with few moving parts. So it’s not only an investment, it’s also a hedge against risk.

A payment in return for decreased risk and more certainty with regard to return on investment is called *insurance* and if one takes a look at it that way, then these look even better as ‘investments’.

--Commercial Real Estate Insurance Person

Aye, 
Marty
Grandma used to say, “Sometimes less is more.”


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## branchburner (Oct 21, 2008)

savageactor7 said:
			
		

> No offense but anyone that spends money on building one those heat sink stoves needs their head examined.
> 
> White elephant.



I'd have to disagree. The amount of wood you use in minimal, the heat is more even and stove is one of the safest possible ways to heat. You do get a return on your investment.

That said, it works best w/ an open concept, new construction, perfect-draft scenario in a cold climate, and if you don't time your fires well you can end up overheating the house. And it is a *long term *investment that is best suited to a house you intend to own for a long time, or know you can sell to someone who will appreciate it for the asset it is.

I struck out on all counts, otherwise I'd be happily having my head examined right now.

It is the next logical step in the progression from $400 smoke dragon to $2400 EPA stove, but only in the right situation.


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## Martin Strand III (Oct 21, 2008)

savageactor7 said:
			
		

> No offense but anyone that spends money on building one those heat sink stoves needs their head examined.
> 
> White elephant.



Grandma used to say:  "It's not just the blind that don't see."

Aye,
Marty


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## Dill (Oct 21, 2008)

I wish I had pics of the one my grandfather built in the late 70s. All of the bricks came from a chimney that UNH took down. So free materials. He took a summer off work and built it in the basement. The firebox was in the basement, on the first floor he had the main chimney with an oven/warmer built in. And a pipe it through an old potbelly stove to pull off more heat. Then he had 3 different flues running through the upstairs that he could open and close depending on what heat was needed. It held an 1930s 1800sq ft house at temp all winter. And all he burned was pallets that he salvaged from UNH in a trailer pulled behind his VW rabbit. The whole thing was genius. Unfortunatly he had to sell the house and the new owners had the system taken apart.


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## Dill (Oct 21, 2008)

sorry for the double post.


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## Martin Strand III (Oct 21, 2008)

COSTS OF A MASONRY HEATER - Part III

Costs (of ‘expensive’ $25K masonry heater) are relative.  And, remember, it’s for essential home heat. 

SAVINGS/PAYBACK CALCULATIONS (‘Tight’ new 2900 SF main & loft home - open style floor plan)

Nov ‘04 - Oct ‘08 (48 months)
*With Masonry Heater/Harman TLC 2000*
$2876. (1278 G)        LPG Purchases, actual @ $2.25/G ave (stove, H/W, Onan 12K generator)

$  300.                      Cordwood Purchases (Rotator cuff inj shoulder 3/05)

$  250.                      Anthracite Purchases (basement stove)

$    65.                      Chainsaw/tractor fuel
__________
$3491.                     /48 months = $ 73./month

*Without Heater/Stove - Est Expenses*
$7200.            LPG ($300/mo x 48 mo/2)

$7200.            LPG cost 4 years w/o add’l heaters
- 2876.            LPG  cost 4 years w/ add’l heaters
_______
$4324.            Saved in 4 years in LPG alone

                      BUT, I burn my own wood, so
$3200.            Saved from not buying most firewood (4 cords/yr @ $200/cord x 4 years)
$1881.            Average saved per year

$25K/$1881.  =        *Payback is 13.3years* (worse case) without adding up non-essential experses (below)


For just 1 year, add up what you spend on non-essentials such as:

$25000.        Your second or third vehicle (I have one) 
$3000 - ?        Your boat (I have three and I admit it’s a weakness, sorry) 
$15000        Swimming pool for your house
$125000        Your “hunting cabin” or second home (I have one home) 
$1500        Tobacco $5/pk x 300/yr (a vice that’s not nice) 
$3600        Ethanol $10/day (wine, beer, booze) 
$50000 - ?        Your mistress (Been thar, done that - a real waste) 
$2500        Eating at restaurants (I do this modestly) 
$3500        Hunting and fishing trips (I quit killin’ things long ago) 
$1000        Blown pocket money, ATM w/drawls (Everyone does this) 
?            “Stuff” you bought but haven’t used in at least a year 
            (It adds up) 
$$Big Bucks    A divorce or two (see a few lines up;no comment) 
            Yada, Yada, Yada

and the cost, ease, safety, effectiveness, eco-friendlyness and convenience of a big hot rock (aka masonry heater) in your home doesn’t seem so out of the question.

Aye,
Marty


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## arcticcatmatt (Oct 21, 2008)

Someone asked about the liner brick. I am not sure what the difference is. I am assuming its standard fire brick. 

I took a picture of tonights fire. Still doing small burns, thats keeping the house at 65-70 ish and its getting as low as 25 at night out. 
fire box empty


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## arcticcatmatt (Oct 21, 2008)

The burn is so efficient there is almost no smoke coming out of chimney. When I have coals (about 45 mins for this small burn) I shove them back, bank them, and close draft so its only open 1/2 an inch.


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## Martin Strand III (Oct 22, 2008)

arcticcatmatt said:
			
		

> *The burn is so efficient *there is almost no smoke coming out of chimney. When I have coals (about 45 mins for this small burn) I shove them back, bank them, and close draft so its only open 1/2 an inch.



I doubt this, judging from the black walls in your firebox, which looks very large.  My masonry heater firebox has no black unburned wood creosote or residue left on the walls after a burn; it's clean.

Aye,
Marty


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## arcticcatmatt (Oct 22, 2008)

^ Maybe because this has been used for 35 years?


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## Martin Strand III (Oct 22, 2008)

arcticcatmatt said:
			
		

> ^ Maybe because this has been used for 35 years?



No.  Not an excuse or an explanation.  Black creosote build up will be burned off with one hot fire.  It's that simple.

Aye,
Marty


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## Hogwildz (Oct 22, 2008)

Looks to me like where he has his fires in the back is clean. The front, where he does not load is dark. Maybe if you did a full load front to back it would all be clean.
If the exhaust up top is clear while running, aside from cold start or reload, I'd say your fine.


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## savageactor7 (Oct 22, 2008)

Just riff'en on this whole Russian stove thing.

 This kind of concept was big for awhile in the 80's tptb had a name for that concept in began with an H, I forgot it. I sure don't mean to disparage the owners of these fireplaces. If you move into a house that has one fine...try and make the best of it. But for the average Joe that's thinking about an alternative heating source putting one of these monstrosities in there home had better think twice. The brick work along would buy you 2 or 3 top of the line EPA stoves if your floor could even support the ton and a half of bricks...and all that just to be warm?

If I wanted to be warm we'd be burning oil or gas. When you have 4 naked kids coming out of the bath on a minus 20 day warm doesn't cut it. Nor does it cut it when you take 'em ice fishing all day or ya come in after being outside working on the farm all day in the winter. You want know your labors are to be rewarded and it's heat form a free standing stove that will set you free.

And I haven't even touched on the fact that for all your labors you don't get to be dazzled by a dancing fire with this pos. WTF is up with that? Is it me? Tell me is it me?


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## myzamboni (Oct 22, 2008)

savageactor7 said:
			
		

> Just riff'en on this whole Russian stove thing.
> 
> This kind of concept was big for awhile in the 80's tptb had a name for that concept in began with an H, I forgot it. I sure don't mean to disparage the owners of these fireplaces. If you move into a house that has one fine...try and make the best of it. But for the average Joe that's thinking about an alternative heating source putting one of these monstrosities in there home had better think twice. The brick work along would buy you 2 or 3 top of the line EPA stoves if your floor could even support the ton and a half of bricks...and all that just to be warm?
> 
> ...



different stokes for different folks .


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## Marty (Oct 22, 2008)

The Russian stove, aka the Mason stove, is the fireplace of the devil. If my house had one I would take it down brick by brick... :D


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## arcticcatmatt (Oct 22, 2008)

tough crowd


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## savageactor7 (Oct 22, 2008)

Sorry brother personally I love ya...it's the Russian stove NOT you.


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## arcticcatmatt (Oct 22, 2008)

I don't know why you dislike it. Hey, your in central NY too, come over and we will see who can hold their hand on the piece of junk the longest, you go first


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## woodjack (Oct 22, 2008)

I never heard of them before and I just checked out the website (http://mha-net.org/). Check out the pic gallery - it's friggin cool.


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## 8nrider (Oct 22, 2008)

wow ! i love ithica it is truly gorges. i may be wrong but i think it is called a grubka. spent some time over your way in the 70's. the design doesn't look right  but i think that was the idea. peace.


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## savageactor7 (Oct 22, 2008)

arcticcatmatt said:
			
		

> I don't know why you dislike it. Hey, your in central NY too, come over and we will see who can hold their hand on the piece of junk the longest, you go first



That's the whole point I'm trying to make. Sure we can't touch our stove cause it's flesh burning hot...but because it's that way it warms our house on the coldest day...and you know how cold it can get of here. remember that one weekend about 6-7 years ago when it was 30below and few vehicles would start? Well our backup didn't turn on then.  Now if our stove was just warm to the touch would it warm this old farm house up? Of course not. I don't' claim to be one of the great thinkers here but one thing I firmly believe in is that you have to start out hot to end up warm.

You have a concept fire pit there...if your family is happy with it then it's victory for you...that's all that matters.


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## begreen (Oct 23, 2008)

Masonry stoves originated in Europe. A big maker, Tulikivi is out of Finland. Yes, where it gets very, very cold. Then there are the Russian masonry fireplaces. Last I heard it gets cold there too. 

 Heat is heat whether it's coming from a small point source of a wood stove or a large thermal mass of masonry. The benefit of a masonry heater is that it burns cleanly, heats evenly, only gets loaded once or twice a day, looks great and offers a nice warm spot to sit and is safe. I can dig your appreciation of that hot stove when coming in from ice fishing, but that is not everyone's lifestyle. For some of us old farts, less work is a good thing. And a warm spot to sit feels good on the bones. But I can appreciate your fondness for your stove too. A good wood stove is great, so is a good masonry heater.


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## myzamboni (Oct 23, 2008)

savageactor7 said:
			
		

> arcticcatmatt said:
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just think of it as an extra thick soapstone stove.


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## downeast (Oct 23, 2008)

Some strong talk Savage...not much real time knowledge.
"WTF is up with that? Is it me? Tell me is it me?" Savage R.   You got it, it is. And WTF are those kids running around nekkid for at 
-20 ????? Drop a dime on this man. 

We heat with wood, that's a 24/7, stump to stove heating. And have for too long...we like it. We know stoves, we know wood.
When we built our place Downeast ourselves --check your climate charts--we seriously considered a Masonry Stove/Fireplace/Heater AS PART OF THE CONSTRUCTION. We asked owners of the masonry stoves about efficiency, construction costs, maintenance, warmth, wood use.
All 6 homes had used it for at least 4 seasons as their only heat source.

Here goes the intelligent pros and cons without the put-downs or rants from the unwashed. 

Pros:
Even heat over the daily cycle.
Uses about 1/2 the wood of a stove for the same space and BTUs.
One fire/day for most of a northern winter in Maine.
No cleanout--one full air hot fire transfers to the thermal mass which gives out even heat.
No fire tending.

Cons ( we finally decided to stick with 2 good cast iron wood stoves, since we already had one )
Very expensive --easily 5X the net cost of 2 high end cast stoves--long amortization.
Our wood on our woodlot is "free", and I enjoy the harvesting process managing the woodland including pulp.
We know wood stove technology and the PITAs maintaining them.
The home has to be designed around the masonry fireplace/stove.
The masonry fireplace needs serious extra foundation support.
The masonry fireplace takes up a large footprint--the house has to be larger and more open---more expense.
You don't "tend" the fire ( could be a solid "pro" !!)

That's it. Many have the Masonry Fireplaces and love them. Like anything there is a long learning curve and a financial committment. It is another lifestyle. We're comfortable with both ways of using wood to heat. 
JMNSHO


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## madrone (Oct 23, 2008)

Would I build one into my new home? Probably not. Would I buy a house that had one? You betcha.


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## branchburner (Oct 23, 2008)

downeast said:
			
		

> Pros:
> Even heat over the daily cycle.
> Uses about 1/2 the wood of a stove for the same space and BTUs.
> One fire/day for most of a northern winter in Maine.
> ...



*One more pro:* the heat is radiant, not convective - it's a bit hard to explain quickly, but think of standing in the sun on a cool day and how warm you feel. Instead of being warmed by warm air around you, you are being warmed by radiation penetrating your skin. It means you can keep the air temp a bit cooler than normal. This only applies when you are in a direct sight line of your masonry mass, but the additional benefit is there is much less air movement (which serves to dry your skin, circulate dust, and cool you off like any breeze will - it's why I *hate *my forced hot air). A masonry heater is like an oversized dry sauna. Heat don't get no healthier than this!

*One more con: *slow to heat up, slow to cool down - which means you really need to plan your fires well. As someone said, it's like a giant soapstone stove. So you gotta wait a few hours to get warm. And the stone will radiate for hours, which is great in the winter. But if you want a quick shoulder-season warmup, the thing will keep cooking and you may be opening a few doors and windows - not such a bad thing if you like fresh air.


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## branchburner (Oct 23, 2008)

8nrider said:
			
		

> wow ! i love ithica it is truly gorges. i may be wrong but i think it is called a grubka. spent some time over your way in the 70's. the design doesn't look right  but i think that was the idea. peace.



Zobo Funn Band?


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## savageactor7 (Oct 23, 2008)

arcticcatmatt I was entirely wrong in dissing your fireplace/stove the way I did...please accept my sincerest apology and I hope you stick around the forum. Since we're neighbors can I souvenir ya a face cord of prime splits as a token of friendship?


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## downeast (Oct 23, 2008)

savageactor7 said:
			
		

> arcticcatmatt I was entirely wrong in dissing your fireplace/stove the way I did...please accept my sincerest apology and I hope you stick around the forum. Since we're neighbors can I souvenir ya a face cord of prime splits as a token of friendship?



Damn SA7, you got class. Send that wood Downeast.


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## Cath (Oct 23, 2008)

arcticcatmatt said:
			
		

> tough crowd



arcticcatmatt,
Please don't be discouraged by any naysayers here.  Unless there is something structurally wrong with your Masonry Heater, or it is really poorly designed then you are darned lucky. 

These are much more popular in Europe where wood is in relatively short supply since on average they use a lot less wood than a "conventional" wood stove.  If I remember correctly they only use about 25% as much.  

I wish I had time to give you a really good overview of what they are and how they work, instead I will simply encourage you to do your research.  Check out the MHA site.  Sign up for their Yahoo chat group and post your pictures there.  And try searching this board using the term "Masonry Heater", Contraflow (or Contra Flow), Tulikivi (or Tulikivi, I forget the correct spelling and I'm sure others have misspelled it as well), etc. 

I think it's especially important that you have it inspected by someone that knows what they are doing to make sure it doesn't need any repairs and that you figure out how to run it properly, not merely for efficiency reasons but due to the possibility of carbon monoxide poisoning.  

Good luck and please keep us posted.
~Cath


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## Adios Pantalones (Oct 23, 2008)

I think their pretty darned impressive.  They can have cook tops- right?  Is there any way to accomodate an exchanger for DHW as well?

I would definitely consider one if building a house.  An amazing central defining feature.


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## arcticcatmatt (Oct 23, 2008)

savageactor7 said:
			
		

> arcticcatmatt I was entirely wrong in dissing your fireplace/stove the way I did...please accept my sincerest apology and I hope you stick around the forum. Since we're neighbors can I souvenir ya a face cord of prime splits as a token of friendship?



Hey thats no problem. As much as I need firewood I could not accept free wood from anyone for any reason. I appreciate the offer, top notch, but not needed. 

I am a 28 year old first time homeowner. I just bought the place 5-6 months ago. I purchased $250 in dry wood, I also drove 4 hrs back where I am from and cut up a ton, then went back TWICE to spit it and get it. I got alot of wood from there but my meter says its not dry enough, its only 26% on the inside . So sadly I learned a lesson, I am going to run out of wood. This stove REQUIRES dry dry hardwood. 

I had a professional come the other day to clean chimneys and inspect, he passed everything. The bad part about this stoves design is the builder did not put in enough cleaning ports, most of the stove cannot be looked at. 

I understand it would be hard and probably not smart for someone to add one of these to their home, the home has to be almost designed around the stove. Heck, underneath the stove is about 2.5 feet of solid concrete and that sits on top of 12? feet of a cinder block base built to support the stove right down to the basement floor. 

Sorry if I got anyone going, it was not my intent.


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## homebrewz (Oct 23, 2008)

I think its preference, and housing situation. I wasn't really sold on the masonary stove idea until I saw one in action.
My friends recently built a large solar addition onto their cabin, basically made a whole separate house. A stone mason 
friend of ours built the masonary stove and the addition was constructed around that. With the solar gain from all of the 
southern facing windows, and thick insulation, during average winter temps they only need to fire the heater about once 
every 1 1/2 to 2 days. The mass stays warm for that long. Of course, they fire it more often when the temp really drops. 
They kept the woodstove in the old part of the house, so they have the best of both worlds. 

I don't know about running DHW tubes through it, but there is a bread oven directly above the firebox. The oven stays hot 
enough to bake bread for several hours after the fire goes out. I've attached a pic of the stove, but its from just after it was 
constructed. The glass hadn't been installed yet. Unfortunately, I don't have a recent pic.. I've since helped them lay a brick 
floor over the plain cement floor. The brick really sets off the color of the stove. 

If I ever build a house, I will probably go with one. However, I'm in an old farm house now, and I couldn't imagine heating 
this place with a masonary heater. In a situation like this, you really need something to put out a quick heat. Soapstone 
wouldn't cut it here either, unless I was around 24/7 to keep the stove going and thats not always possible.


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## backpack09 (Oct 23, 2008)

I like going on vacation in the winter too much to be tied to my house every day to feed a fire.


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## Adios Pantalones (Oct 23, 2008)

Nobody said it has to be the only source of heat in the house.


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## branchburner (Oct 23, 2008)

Backpack09 said:
			
		

> I like going on vacation in the winter too much to be tied to my house every day to feed a fire.



Tulikivi now offers some sort of electric element so you can "plug in" your masonry heater to keep it warm for a few days while you're gone. My neighbor has a Tulikivi but wants to junk it instead of jacking his electric, which I can understand. He's home for a few days then gone for a few, so the thing cools down and is a pain to warm up. By the time all the stone has warmed the house he's ready to leave again.
The other thing he found is you need a really good draft. Even w/ a newspaper priming fire he had a lot of trouble in anything but really cold, dry weather. But that's really no different from having a good draft for your wood stove, I suppose.


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## pelletfan (Oct 23, 2008)

In Europe it's called Kachel Ofen.
A somewhat similar idea of heating a room
Enclosed a link to a pro with a nice picture gallery of his work.
http://www.ofenbaupruenster.it/de/index.html
here a swedish one 
http://www.dataphone.se/~ncteknik/We_are_setting_up_a_Swedish_ceramic_stove.html
hope you guy's get some idea's for your home


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## downeast (Oct 23, 2008)

"Kachelof(t)ens" are another breed from a Masory /Russian Fireplace/Stove . Similar idea of mass but the kacheloftens are iron and tile wood stoves that load from another room. It was a job for the servants not so long ago.
Plenty of stuff online.


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## gpcollen1 (Oct 24, 2008)

branchburner said:
			
		

> Backpack09 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What would it take to disassemble that thing and get it on my trailer??

G


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## pelletfan (Oct 24, 2008)

> “Kachelof(t)ens” are another breed from a Masory /Russian Fireplace/Stove . Similar idea of mass but the kacheloftens are iron and tile wood stoves that load from another room. It was a job for the servants not so long ago.
> Plenty of stuff online


Just to set a couple of things correct:
A Kachelofen (correct german spelling) is completely build with tiles, as well as firebrick (Schamottestein) on the inside. 
Or to be precise, around 1775 they started to experiment with a firebox made out of Iron and a surround made of Kacheln/Tiles.
That's what most people have in mind if one speaks of a Kachelofen. 
My link shows a professional who builds them the old fashioned way. (Not affiliated - but like his ideas)
Wanted only to point out that the concept on the Masonry/Russion Fireplace Stove is similar to a Kachelofen just a little bit simpler.


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## arcticcatmatt (Oct 24, 2008)

Interesting stuff. 

Its been 25 out at my place the last three nights. The mason stove is keeping it 68-74 in there and in the 3 days I have burned less than a wheel barrow of wood.


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## downeast (Oct 24, 2008)

pelletfan said:
			
		

> > “Kachelof(t)ens” are another breed from a Masory /Russian Fireplace/Stove . Similar idea of mass but the kacheloftens are iron and tile wood stoves that load from another room. It was a job for the servants not so long ago.
> > Plenty of stuff online
> 
> 
> ...



That's somewhat true. The actual "kachelofens" ( spelled differently in the language of the country in Europe) that I've seen in Germany and Switzerland and Norway are tile covered wood stoves. They're bigger than what we think of as "Scandinavian" wood stoves. They are set in the largest room in a home, and loaded from outside of the house. The kachelofens ( or kacheloftens ) I've seen do have air controls like a regular wood stove, but smaller fireboxes because of the smaller trees in most of Europe. No links, actual visits. The principle of a Masonry Firepalce/Stove or Russian Fireplace is this: one open draft large hot fire transferring the heat to a very large mass, then allowing that heated mass to pass the heat to the home. Wood stoves burn differently with air and draft controls.

Most European forests were clear cut and denuded due to diseases over centuries of hard use. Only recently has Europe begun to re-forest naturally and by intensive planting unfortunately in bureaucratic rows and single species. And following North American Forestry Science, Europe recently, in the past decades, has followed our methods of "woody debris" fertilization, or leaving most of the 'waste' from cut trees on the ground. It is law now, for example, in Switzerland. Before, most forests in Europe looked like parks: swept 'clean' like our city parklands. It made for unfertile soil ripe for the spread of diseases and a lack of diversity.

PS Neat web site. Where we have sufficient forest resources, pellet stoves are not recommended except for urban environs like
     NYC. 
    Some objections to pellet stoves: supply and cost, operation noise, maintenance, non-classic designs, BTU output 
    compared to a similar wood stove.


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## arcticcatmatt (Oct 24, 2008)

I forgot to ask, if anyone knows where I can look for a new door for this stove let me know. I would like to get one that has adjustable vents in it. When I first start the fire I leave the door open 1/2 inch and draft full open. That is like blowing on the fire hard. If I open the door 100% it still blows on it but not very hard. I know the point of these is a HOT FAST fire, so blowing on it hard is preferable to get such a high temp from such a small amount of wood. I would rather do this with adjustable vents rather than leaving the door open 1/2 inch. 

Then when I have coals, shut the vents to keep the heat in the stove. 

I noticed a couple people in this thread that may be close to me. If you ever want to come check this unit out for whatever reason, the invitation is there. I live in Berkshire NY

When looking thru a few websites I seen one design that works with a pellet stove! It traps the heat from that. I am wondering if one could construct a mason stove to work with a coal stove. The exhaust gases from that are hot, wonder what would happen if you vented it thru a mason stove, the brick would be hot from the exhaust gases.


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## Martin Strand III (Oct 24, 2008)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Masonry stoves originated....   Heat is heat whether it's coming from a small point source of a wood stove or a large thermal mass of masonry. ....



"HEAT IS HEAT"?  Shame on you BeGreen!

Here’s an old goat’s interpretation on how part of our world works:

BASIC PHYSICS REVIEW OF HEAT

First, realize “heat” is the result of motion between minute particles of matter and that it is constantly being exchanged in an endless circle wanting and seeking thermal equilibrium.  “Temperature” measures intensity of heat and, indirectly, the amount of motion in the particles.

Gases, like the air we breathe, exchange heat mostly by *convection*, a means of flow, whereby cold gas particles have less movement and thus are closer together (read more dense) than warm air particles (less dense) accounting for the fact warm air rises and cold air sinks.  When a warm air particle (molecule) contacts a cold air particle, its higher heat energy in the form of molecular vibration is transferred to the cold air particle, which then becomes warmer and rises with its less dense cousins.  This energy transfer, per molecular vibrations, moves like a wave through the cooler particles as they warm up.  There is significant space between air molecules, so this process of molecular collisons passing on energy takes time and causes air currents as warmer molecules rise and cooler ones sink.  In the process, as the wamer particles contact fixed objects in the room, these absorb the vibration energy and begin to warm. 

This method of heat transfer (convection) is indirect since the heat transfer goes through air containing much space between molecules.  This continual movement of air from a hot stove causing convective air currents can result in drafty indoor conditions with temperature zones (aka “indoor weather").  Liquids also exchange heat chiefly via convection.  Particles are closer together than in air but the same phenomenon occurs explaining why cooler water is near the bottom of a lake and warmer water on the surface.  But in this example, wind can blow warm surface water away resulting in the temporary surface feeling cold as colder water rises to replace the displaced warmer surface water.

Solids exchange heat by radiation and, with direct contact, *conduction*.  In its quest for equilibrium, heat transfers via conduction when two solid objects are in contact.  Vibrations from the warmer object molecules spread by contacting the cooler objects molecules thereby increasing their vibrations and heat which, spread like a wave through the object.  The degree of vibrations, from the amount of heat, can be substantial.  If a very hot object (hot metal stove) with considerable heat energy (lots of vibrating molecules) is touched by a finger, the molecules on the surface of the finger can vibrate so fast that those molecules separate resulting in a burn to the finger.  Friction is another way to increase particle movement resulting in heat by conduction.  For example, experience the warmth generated by rubbing your hands together.

Heat transfer by *radiation* is a slightly different story.  To understand it, realize that any matter with a temperature above Absolute Zero (0* K, or -273* F) gives off “infrared radiation”, not seen in the visible spectrum of light, but explained by quantum mechanics as a stream of extremely small photons having properties of waves and particles, maybe both, maybe alternating between the two.  So small are these photons that it is debated (when I was in school, please, update me) whether they are pure energy or particles, either travelling at phenomenal speeds.  When these photons collide with other molecules or particles of matter, they cause increased particle movement and more heat.
As mentioned, gases, like air, have relatively enormous amounts of space between the molecules of the gas.  Liquids have less space between molecules and solids even less (solids being generally more dense than liquids or a gas).  The tighter the molecules are packed together in a piece of matter, the easier it is to absorb any radiant heat photon which may strike it, making it warmer.  Conversely, *in air, the molecules are relatively far apart making the chances of a radiant energy photon hitting the gas particle (oxygen molecule, nitrogen molecule, etc.) much smaller.*

*Hot objects radiate photons of greater amplitude (like a sine wave) than cooler objects.*  A photon from a very hot source has a greater chance of colliding with a particle of matter, like an oxygen or nitrogen molecule in room air, in a given distance than a photon from a cooler source.
 
*This explains why a hot metal stove at 550* F tends to heat the air around it and induce convection air currents versus a cooler stove at 180* F which will radiate photons with less amplitude, have less chance of colliding with air molecules over a given distance and can heat solid objects further away from the source than the hot metal stove. *

That’s the story and I’m stickin’ to it:  why radiant heat has been heralded as “more healthy” (like the heat from the sun) and the air remains still at a more even temperature than convection heat which causes draftiness, temperature zones, etc.

Aye, 
Marty
Albert Einstein once said, “Nothing happens, until something moves.”


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## Hogwildz (Oct 24, 2008)

Sorry man, that was so long and boring I could not bring myself to read the whole thing.
Can we just say your right, make you feel better, and move on?
I like the gentleman's heater, whatever whoever wants to call it. It serves him well, and it came with the house.
Seems simple enough to me. We all can't afford to build our own place and a new masonry heater to go with it.
Heating ones home by what means by which he has, is the best a man can do.
He's hopefully saving money and staying warm while doing so, that is the bottom line.
Take the debate to the ash can and cut the guy some slack.


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## Martin Strand III (Oct 24, 2008)

OK, Man.

Though please realize some folks roam this site to learn something.

Aye,
Marty


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## Adios Pantalones (Oct 24, 2008)

I think the difference in feel (convection, convection, radiation) has been adressed already in this thread.

I'll only briefly address your take on the spectroscopy of heating with wood, because it's a bit off base to get any deeper than that, IMO.  A blackbody radiation source point of maximum emission decreases in wavelength at higher temperatures, but overlaps and is more intense at the foremer maximum wavelength observed at a lower temperature.  So- the envelope is larger, and contains the subset of the lower temperature emission spectrum.







(http://www.scitec.uk.com/)

If what you're saying was true, then the sun would be a poor radiation heater because it's a hotter source that emits through the atmosphere- ya?  It's probable that I've stood in front of hotter contained fires than most people- you can feel the heat from 15-20 feet when it's 2300F   

We all know that different sources feel different.  

p.s.- I agree with hogz- the whole masonry heater thing is pretty much pissa.


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## Adios Pantalones (Oct 24, 2008)

We makem big fire.  Fire gud.


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## fossil (Oct 24, 2008)

AP is a major deity in my faith.  Rick


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## Adios Pantalones (Oct 24, 2008)

See- that's what I like about Fossil- he doesn't hold a grudge.  Plus he's the patron god of both the elderly and woodshed interior design.


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## sgcsalsero (Oct 24, 2008)

arcticcatmatt said:
			
		

> Interesting stuff.
> 
> Its been 25 out at my place the last three nights. The mason stove is keeping it 68-74 in there and in the 3 days I have burned less than a wheel barrow of wood.



Wow, I can go thru one wheelbarrow a day or more at 25 degrees (approximating 100-125lbs of wood) and the thermostat never gets past 64 . . so good for you!  There have been some 'heated' posts with these beasties, I'm jealous you have one and hope that you stick with using it.  

I think a quick short fire is the best, no need to damper down.  Tempcast has some info. on how hot things need to get (the hotter the better I think is the goal).  Maybe check this book out http://search.barnesandnoble.com/bo...-Masonry-Stoves/David-Lyle&ISBN=9781890132095

To each his own, some people spend 10-15k on just putting a regular 'ole chimney, fireplace, and gas logs on a new addition . . my neighbors did just that last year.

Good luck.


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## tutu_sue (Oct 24, 2008)

Your stove appears to be a Russian Vertical Channel Masonry Heater (see ASTM International).  You can find a booklet called Homeowner's Safety Manual and Burning Guide for Masonry Heaters, $7.50 at the MHA bookstore.

My sister's inlaws are from Finland and the lifestyle there is more suitable to the expense and operation of this type of 24/7 heater.  Smaller, efficient homes and the Mrs. is home during the day to keep the stove going.  They don't go far from home in the winter due to the snow, ice and frigid temps and the price of gasoline (petrol) has been very expensive there forever.

Do your research and learn to operate this unit to it's full and safe potential.  I think you're lucky to have it.


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## Marty (Oct 24, 2008)

Time to post this old link again:
http://stove.ru/index.php?lng=1&rs=3


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## bbc557ci (Oct 24, 2008)

8nrider said:
			
		

> wow ! i love ithica it is truly gorges. i may be wrong but i think it is called a grubka. spent some time over your way in the 70's. the design doesn't look right  but i think that was the idea. peace.



Ithica is purdy .... but way too many libs....

Sorry, just try'n to break things up here  ;-P


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## Martin Strand III (Oct 25, 2008)

Adios Pantalones said:
			
		

> I think the difference in feel (convection, convection, radiation) has been adressed already in this thread.
> 
> I'll only briefly address your take on the spectroscopy of heating with wood, because it's a bit off base to get any deeper than that, IMO.  A blackbody radiation source point of maximum emission decreases in wavelength at higher temperatures, but overlaps and is more intense at the foremer maximum wavelength observed at a lower temperature.  So- the envelope is larger, and contains the subset of the lower temperature emission spectrum.
> 
> ...



WOW!

Have things changed, or has our interpretation of things changed, since I went to school...

Aye,
Marty


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## LMBittick (Oct 25, 2008)

arcticcatmatt said:
			
		

> Someone asked about the liner brick. I am not sure what the difference is. I am assuming its standard fire brick.
> 
> I took a picture of tonights fire. Still doing small burns, thats keeping the house at 65-70 ish and its getting as low as 25 at night out.
> fire box empty



For all the naysayers, like many tools, the benefit depends on how you will use it.  This masonry heater can heat the whole house and is well-suited for Ithaca.  Sure, there is a skewed cost benefit when you look at the cost of building such a stove, but Arcticcatmatt didn't have to build it!  His house already has it, and he is lucky! (Except, from his photos of the firebrick, it looks like it burns $5 notes. Yikes!) 

I have both a large stone fireplace (w/insert) and a masonry fireplace in my house.  There is no way I would build a house today with all that masonry, but if you can acquire an older property that has this stuff, all the better. 

I think you will really enjoy using it, Matt.


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## Adios Pantalones (Oct 26, 2008)

Marty S said:
			
		

> WOW!
> 
> Have things changed, or has our interpretation of things changed, since I went to school...
> 
> ...



LOL- maybe you went to school before Max Planck came up with his law of thermodynamics (1900 or so).  Or maybe the sun didn't feel hot back then- times really have changed!


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## Martin Strand III (Oct 26, 2008)

Adios Pantalones said:
			
		

> Marty S said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is the understatement of the day!  I remember back in '17, years before the BIG crash, the air was pure, a man's word was good, kids actually respected their elders, the water was clean and fish didn't have 3 ears...

Aye, Marty


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## arcticcatmatt (Nov 21, 2008)

Had to bust out my camera.. remember the guy in this thread that said he had kids getting out of the shower and warm just doesn't cut it.. a mason stove is junk

hahahaha.. I got out of my shower last night. Felt pretty good 





thats inside temp over outside temp.. 4 hrs later it was 14 outside and still 79/80 inside. 100% mason stove heat.


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## sgcsalsero (Nov 21, 2008)

arcticcatmatt said:
			
		

> Had to bust out my camera.. remember the guy in this thread that said he had kids getting out of the shower and warm just doesn't cut it.. a mason stove is junk
> 
> hahahaha.. I got out of my shower last night. Felt pretty good
> 
> ...



Holy scheeeeetttttt, you got it made man!  Can I ask (as I was knee deep in cellulose last night), what kind of insulation you got your house (and possibly type constuction e.g. is your house a ranch 2000 sq.ft.)

Man I am jealous!


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## Todd (Nov 21, 2008)

Where is your thermometer in relation to your heater? I suppose you have hot and cool spots throughout your house like the rest of us?


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## karri0n (Nov 21, 2008)

I like the mason stove. I can't say I give validity to the claim by mha-net.org that "It is by far the cleanest way to burn cordwood", with all the cat stoves and re-burn stoves we have available today, but it does seem damn efficient. I have trouble keeping overnight warmth with a full 3.0 cu. ft load in my stove, and this thing seems able to keep the whole house warm with half that load for hours and hours. Also, if you happen to be decently skilled at masonry, with the right amount of research, I would imagine the overhead cost of building it wouldn't be so high, if your foundation etc was up to spec to hold the thing. Considering I have a huge brick central masonry stack in my house, I would even consider(many years down the line), talking with one of these heater masons to see if we can work out a solution and get something going.

Matt, congrats on the house, and the great find! Your pic effectively defeats all the naysayers.


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## arcticcatmatt (Nov 21, 2008)

Churchie - its not always 80 haha.. it just was last night because I lit too big of a fire in it. My house is a 1970 stick built ranch style, 1200 square feet. I don't think that is including the attached garage, the masonary stove is 1/3rd into that and heats that to the 60's. Probably more if I never opened the garage door. 
The walls of the house are insulated but I don't know what with. I seen it per the house inspection thru a hole we put in the closet wall. The ceiling has 14-16" of insulation. I think thats the number, the inspector told me. I will be up there next week and I will measure it. I do not know the R value of it but it is the spray cellulose type. Over that is a shingle roof and over that is a 3 year old tin roof. 

Todd- That thermometer is approx 20 feet from the heater. My living room, kitchen, dining room, hallway are all the same room pretty much.. The house was designed around this heater. The temperature down the hallway was 76 when I took that picture, thats aways from the stove. I just put in special fans all over the place last night. They are working great. The bedroom was 73 and thats at the total opposite end of the house. I am working on getting more air down there. So, 1200 foot house and the temp dropped 7 degrees from one end to the other. With more fan playing I think I can fix that. 

Best part was when I woke up this morning. 74 in the living room, 70 in my bedroom (opposite end of house), 4 degree difference and the fire was out 12 hrs ago.. the mason stove was still kicking heat as it's designed to do.

Karri0n- Thanks. I am leaving town right now but I will take some foundation pictures when I get back. It goes thru the floor to 12 feet of block in the basement! Funny thing about that picture. It peaked at 81 in there. Thats when I turned off all the circulation fans to attempt to stop the climbing. I will take pictures of my fans setup on monday. I have one mounted next to the stove on the wall pulling heat, I have another pulling it into my bedroom at the end of the house in the door frame. I also have a ceiling fan in the kitchen.


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## sgcsalsero (Nov 21, 2008)

Todd said:
			
		

> Where is your thermometer in relation to your heater? I suppose you have hot and cool spots throughout your house like the rest of us?



Edit: I backed off a couple thoughts based on a reply posted at same time

Masonry stoves distribute heat evenly and slowly, would you even need fans?


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## karri0n (Nov 21, 2008)

arcticcatmatt said:
			
		

> Best part was when I woke up this morning. 74 in the living room, 70 in my bedroom (opposite end of house), 4 degree difference and the fire was out 12 hrs ago.. the mason stove was still kicking heat as it's designed to do.




Man, that's nice. I haven't been burning yet, just once in late oct when we had some guests. Waiting on that good check so I can get some wood delivered. My temps this morning - 55 in bedroom using electrixc space heater, 40's downstairs. Turned on the oil boiler, didn't fire. Either out of Diesel, or (hopefully not) moisture froze in the line/tank, preventing flow.


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## arcticcatmatt (Nov 21, 2008)

The masonry stove was out for 5 hours when I took that picture. 

I light the stove every 12 hrs with a big armful of wood. My firebox is about 12x 12. I just fill that with fine cut wood and light it up starting by the top (cleaner burn). The stove gets its hottest 5 hrs after the burn. 

Karin0n - didn't burn yet? Oh man.. we have snow on the ground and 13 degrees outside.. we be burnin'. 
The best part.. I have 3 ton of coal in my basement. Coal stove not on yet.

Churchie - Yeah.. fans are needed. Otherwise have a huge temp difference from one end of the house to the other. A better design would be to have this thing in the middle of the house. But then I would have to lug wood and ash thru the house and my garage wouldn't be heated.


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## karri0n (Nov 21, 2008)

If we were anywhere else in CT, we would have been burnin a month ago. Luckily we get about 10° warmer than central or NW CT, being so close to the water. As far as I know,(Litchfield county might have) no one in CT has gotten any of the white stuff yet.


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## Martin Strand III (Nov 21, 2008)

arcticcatmatt said:
			
		

> The masonry stove was out for 5 hours when I took that picture. I light the stove every 12 hrs ....



Please describe your "masonry stove".  I have a masonry heater and I think yours is a different animal.  

FYI: 

1)  A metal stove with a few chunks of masonry/soapstone in it does not make a masonry heater (not that your 'stove' is this either).
2)  A metal frame fireplace with a masonry facade and masonry wall/chimney  surround is not a masonry heater.
3)  This is a masonry heater:

"*MHA Masonry Heater Definition*

A masonry heater is a site-built or site-assembled, solid-fueled heating device constructed mainly of masonry materials in which the heat from intermittent fires burned rapidly in its firebox is stored in its massive structure for slow release to the building. It has an interior construction consisting of a firebox and heat exchange channels built from refractory components.
Specifically, a masonry heater has the following characteristics:
- a mass of at least 800 kg. (1760 lbs.),
- tight fitting doors that are closed during the burn cycle,
- an overall average wall thickness not exceeding 250 mm (10 in.),
- under normal operating conditions, the external surface of the masonry heater, except immediately surrounding the fuel loading door(s), does not exceed 110 C. (230 F.),
- the gas path through the internal heat exchange channels downstream of the firebox includes at least one 180 degree change in flow direction, usually downward, before entering the chimney,
- the length of the shortest single path from the firebox exit to the chimney entrance is at least twice the largest firebox dimension

(passed unanimously at 1998 MHA Annual Meeting, June 8, 1998)"

Just wanted to be on the same page...

Aye,
Marty


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## arcticcatmatt (Nov 21, 2008)

^ I have a masonary heater. Sorry, didn't know there was terminology. I have called it stove, heater, furnace, brick.. you name it HA

The only metal in this baby is the burn door, clean out door, and draft slide.


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