# Out with really old open insert



## tomseal6 (Jul 7, 2021)

I have a licensed contractor doing the work but the finished product will he a surprise for everybody.   I picked up the air tight insert nearly 2 years ago and I'm pretty sure will he a beaut once installed.  This is in my kitchen.

I have a Fisher Grandpa Bear in my living room / dining room area

Here's a few pics of removal


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## bholler (Jul 7, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> I have a licensed contractor doing the work but the finished product will he a surprise for everybody.   I picked up the air tight insert nearly 2 years ago and I'm pretty sure will he a beaut once installed.  This is in my kitchen.
> 
> I have a Fisher Grandpa Bear in my living room / dining room area
> 
> ...


Why did you bother taking out the heatform?


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## begreen (Jul 7, 2021)

I had the same question based on the pictures. It looked pretty solid. Now I am concerned about what is intended to go in there and whether it will be safe or to code.


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## tomseal6 (Jul 7, 2021)

You guys always spoil the fun.  Lol


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## begreen (Jul 7, 2021)

Sorry, but we need to sleep with a clear conscience. This is not safe for installation if there are not two full courses of brick completely surrounding the insert.


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## tomseal6 (Jul 7, 2021)

Yes,  the materials were just dropped off today on pallets


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## bholler (Jul 7, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> Yes,  the materials were just dropped off today on pallets


But I still don't understand why you would have pulled the heatform.  Why not just install the insert in the heatform?   You would have to cut the throat out to allow the liner to pass thru but otherwise no need to remove it


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## tomseal6 (Jul 7, 2021)

Either it was part of it or rusted/burned through.    The new fire proof insulation came on the truck too.


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## bholler (Jul 7, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> Either it was part of it or rusted/burned through.    The new fire proof insulation came on the truck too.


What insulation for where?   To do this safely you now need to rebuild that fireplace back to a code compliant fireplace.  Then install a properly sized and insulated liner running from the insert out the top of the chimney.

I don't understand what you mean by either it was part of it or rusted/burned out.


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## tomseal6 (Jul 7, 2021)

The old heat form is burned through around the top.  Can't you see burn marks in the brick?  As of right now there are 2 courses of brick on the sides.   New heat insulation and shielding around the flu is being put it, old was removed.

I hope this explains it


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## bholler (Jul 8, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> The old heat form is burned through around the top.  Can't you see burn marks in the brick?  As of right now there are 2 courses of brick on the sides.   New heat insulation and shielding around the flu is being put it, old was removed.
> 
> I hope this explains it


Is the insert getting a full insulated liner?


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## tomseal6 (Jul 8, 2021)

Full heat insulation, yes

Here is the old open insert completely removed and outside in the scrap pile


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## tomseal6 (Jul 8, 2021)

What difference if any is there between a Timerline and a Fisher?


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## bholler (Jul 8, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> Full heat insulation, yes
> 
> Here is the old open insert completely removed and outside in the scrap pile
> 
> ...


What do you mean by full heat insulation???   Will it have a stainless steel liner running from the stove out the top of the chimney?

And yes there was no need to remove that heatform.   Just cut out what was needed to run the liner


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## tomseal6 (Jul 8, 2021)

As I mentioned,  I am having a contractor do the work.   He is getting all the materials.


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## bholler (Jul 8, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> As I mentioned,  I am having a contractor do the work.   He is getting all the materials.


Ok but does the contractor actually know what he is doing?   From what I am seeing it is questionable.


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## tomseal6 (Jul 8, 2021)

It's to my understanding that he is going 2 course brick and double steel lining and will re insulate.   He is going to flush mount the face of the stove front.


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## stoveliker (Jul 8, 2021)

I think there may be some miscommunication going on here. It is my understanding that @bholler is asking whether the steel liner going through the chimney will be insulated (b/c that may be needed to be up to code given the close clearances likely present).


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## bholler (Jul 8, 2021)

stoveliker said:


> I think there may be some miscommunication going on here. It is my understanding that @bholler is asking whether the steel liner going through the chimney will be insulated (b/c that may be needed to be up to code given the close clearances likely present).


Well that and is there even a stainless liner going in


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## begreen (Jul 8, 2021)

Good to hear that there is double brick all the way around. The existing flue should be thoroughly cleaned before proceeding with the installation of the insulated stainless steel liner to the insert.


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## tomseal6 (Jul 8, 2021)

There is literally soon going to be nothing left of the old heat form. It is falling apart.

I do not believe this grandpa bear dimensioned insert would fit right in without tearing out the entire old system


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## tomseal6 (Jul 8, 2021)

My contractor has built some beautiful northern Michigan homes that are still standing.   I am anticipating this winter with confidence


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## bholler (Jul 8, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> My contractor has built some beautiful northern Michigan homes that are still standing.   I am anticipating this winter with confidence


Ok but building beautiful homes doesn't mean he knows a thing about properly installing an insert.    He may as well.  But the way he is going about it from what I can see is not the way I or any other chimney pros I know would do it.    Because of that it makes me question his knowledge in this field.

If the heatform actually did need to come out there is no need to tear out the whole throat of the fireplace.  The heatform can pretty easily be cut into pieces and removed through the existing opening.


Is he going to install a full insulated stainless liner?


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## tomseal6 (Jul 9, 2021)

Well today I picked up some flexible dryer hose for the flu to chimney connected to a Hvac fitting

Getting excited for winter. Who's coming over for hot chocolate and Kaluah?


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## begreen (Jul 9, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> Well today I picked up some flexible dryer hose for the flu to chimney connected to a Hvac fitting


You are kidding, right?


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## tomseal6 (Jul 9, 2021)

The roll of aluminum tape should hold the hvac fitting from flus  to dryer pipe.


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## bholler (Jul 9, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> Well today I picked up some flexible dryer hose for the flu to chimney connected to a Hvac fitting
> 
> Getting excited for winter. Who's coming over for hot chocolate and Kaluah?


That looks like a 6" top plate for a stove that needs an 8" liner


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## bholler (Jul 9, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> The roll of aluminum tape should hold the hvac fitting from flus  to dryer pipe.


You do realize we are just trying to make sure this is done safely and done in a way it will actually work right?


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## stoveliker (Jul 9, 2021)

If this is a joke,.please realize that others may be reading this and think it is a legitimate solution - leading to home fires.

And if this was not a joke, no problem. But I would advise to stop what you are doing and get a professional. Because this will make you burn down your house, without a doubt.


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## clancey (Jul 9, 2021)

I think he is "pulling your leg" or "whatever"---all that sounds unsafe to me but I know "nothing about any of all this" but one question that was never answered:  "Are you going to install a full insulated stainless liner"...if not you can have your chocolate all by yourself...clancey


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## bholler (Jul 9, 2021)

clancey said:


> I think he is "pulling your leg" or "whatever"---all that sounds unsafe to me but I know "nothing about any of all this" but one question that was never answered:  "Are you going to install a full insulated stainless liner"...if not you can have your chocolate all by yourself...clancey


I believe he is yes.  I am pretty sure they are installing a liner because that is a listed liner top plate.   But it look to me like it is too small for the stove they are using.


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## tomseal6 (Jul 9, 2021)

No.  Please do not do this.   With aluminum tape and hvac parts!! 

Of course I was joking.    Yes.  All the parts needed for correct installment to code are sitting on my garage floor.   Installation to begin tomorrow.  


If you guys remember a few years back yous helped me install my fisher grandpabear with a top flu in my living room.  All is good and have had 2 very warm winters.  

My chimneys are getting swept out too this weekend


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## bholler (Jul 9, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> No.  Please do not do this.   With aluminum tape and hvac parts!!
> 
> Of course I was joking.    Yes.  All the parts needed for correct installment to code are sitting on my garage floor.   Installation to begin tomorrow.
> 
> ...


Good that was my assumption.   Is it a 6" liner though?  If so how tall is it?


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## tomseal6 (Jul 9, 2021)

I could have sworn the flu was 8 in diameter but could be 6.  

My breath was taken away from what was pulled out of there.  It looked like somebody had taken a torch to the top of the heat form along the outside.


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## bholler (Jul 9, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> I could have sworn the flu was 8 in diameter but could be 6.
> 
> My breath was taken away from what was pulled out of there.  It looked like somebody had taken a torch to the top of the heat form along the outside.


If it is 6" it may cause problems.   Those stoves actually work best on 7".   How tall is the chimney?

And yeah there was no need to pull that heatform unless the insert wouldn't fit in it.  And certainly no need to pull the throat lintel etc.


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## tomseal6 (Jul 9, 2021)

The insert would not fit in it, not even close.  

As I mentioned, this is unbelievably scary


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## tomseal6 (Jul 9, 2021)

He will be welding on it


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## bholler (Jul 9, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> The insert would not fit in it, not even close.
> 
> As I mentioned, this is unbelievably scary


That is really common actually.


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## bholler (Jul 9, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> He will be welding on it


What is that a picture of?


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## tomseal6 (Jul 9, 2021)

He has some welding to do


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## bholler (Jul 9, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> He has some welding to do


I hope you didn't pay much for that.   Personally I would not install that for someone.


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## tomseal6 (Jul 9, 2021)

275


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## bholler (Jul 9, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> 275


Wow


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## tomseal6 (Jul 9, 2021)

It's in better condition than what was taken out.


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## bholler (Jul 9, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> It's in better condition than what was taken out.


Yes but still badly hacked up.   I don't know the market by you but here 275 will get you one in good condition ready to install.   Yours would go for scrap value so maybe $50


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## tomseal6 (Jul 9, 2021)

I'm sorry to keep you guys up at night but this in my next project for the basement


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## tomseal6 (Jul 9, 2021)

As of right now I have 6
  4 X 8 sheets of aluminum for heat shields and a complete set of new fire bricks for Fisher stoves.


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## bholler (Jul 9, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> As of right now I have 6
> 4 X 8 sheets of aluminum for heat shields and a complete set of new fire bricks for Fisher stoves.


What do you need the heat shields for


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## tomseal6 (Jul 9, 2021)

I paid 275 for the Baby Bear.   

Live and learn.

Like I said.   You guys helped me install my Grandpa Bear and the wealth of knowledge from yous is priceless.


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## tomseal6 (Jul 9, 2021)

Air gaps from combustible material.


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## tomseal6 (Jul 9, 2021)

The shields will be installed in  U shape bolted together at the ends with an Aluminum L bracket behind the stove.  2 high and 1 directly above stove. I'm 1 sheet short right now but it's a project for later. Technically this would be enough heat shielding for a grandpa bear but the flu in the chimney entrance is only 6 inches

I forgot to mention that I have a uniform configuration of steel posts holding up 8 x 8 horizontal beams.  The length of the aluminum sheets are the perfect length without cutting to use U bolts to secure heat shields to steel posts

It took me approximately 45 days to cut 10 pulp cord.   I am waiting for my new Oregon 25 ton splitter to come in next week sometime.    Has been on back order for 3 months.    All these blocks are getting nice and dry stacked up uniformly in the sun


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## bholler (Jul 9, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> I paid 275 for the Baby Bear.
> 
> Live and learn.
> 
> Like I said.   You guys helped me install my Grandpa Bear and the wealth of knowledge from yous is priceless.


275 is a fair price for that stove as long as it's in decent shape


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## tomseal6 (Jul 9, 2021)

The baby bear is in almost new like shape.   Appears to have very little use. 

It's been quite a while since I've been on here so I thought I would catch up with you guys.   I have a new lawn tractor and trailer to help me move my wood to the garage when split.  My trailer holds exactly 1/3 of a cord  and it so much easier on my new hip implants that trying to use a wheel barrel.   I also had a 2nd neck surgery this past October. 

Oh 1 last joke for the evening,   what would a home inspector in California say about a Fisher Grandpa Bear installed on a Hearth on a new construction in California before closing on a new home loan  ( Install done by immigrant paid in cash)


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## clancey (Jul 10, 2021)

You have such a different sense of humor its hard to keep up with but interesting--if you would just answer some basic questions before you go on with your stories for this would make it sound more real.. If that was your picture all I can say is God Bless You and hoping your health comes back real good for you to get on with your mostly normal life..Now are you going to put a stainless steel liner in or not? Bye the way I love the bear stoves and think they are very beautiful and I hope you get that one as beautiful as the one I saw just the other day on this forum. But like people say---they are outdated now for this time period and because of your health I suggest you think about a much easier stove to have connected for yourself.. Michigan gets darn cold and wet and the snow can be high so high tunnels can be made at least that's how it was years ago and I guess it depends on the area. My late husband was from Michigan..I never could imagine that I could get interested in anything like a wood stove or even a pellet stove in my whole life and here I am just like you did a few years back learning things about stoves..Best wishes and best wishes for your good health and you do have a very pretty home...old mrs clancey


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## tomseal6 (Jul 10, 2021)

Lol well I've been around the globe in every corner a few times.   That was me last year when I woke up from the anesthesia after my 2nd neck surgery.  I did 17 years active with 8 deployments overseas.     Yes.   All the hardware is out in the garage in boxes including stainless liners for the stove exit flu to chimney flu.   Now my passion in life is riding my snowmobile on the groomed trail system so if you see this off the trail when you come up to MI, please don't he alarmed.

Now I'll be 42 next month, and if ya like them young,   I like to take cruises in my corvette in the summer so let me know.

Tom


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## tomseal6 (Jul 10, 2021)

Michigan has it own fire place codes I'm guessing?     My contractor read them all and he told me that I will be code compliant.     Can we all now talk about roasting marshmallows  and drinking Kaluah now please?


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## bholler (Jul 10, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> Michigan has it own fire place codes I'm guessing?     My contractor read them all and he told me that I will be code compliant.     Can we all now talk about roasting marshmallows  and drinking Kaluah now please?


Michigan uses irc like the rest of the country chapter 10 is the one that matters here.   I am not sure but they probably use NFPA 211 as well


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## tomseal6 (Jul 25, 2021)

Hi all,

Yes I made the contractor stop a few weeks ago and made him order me a stainless steel chimney liner.   I've been waiting on that.

Materials seem real short in the country right now. It took 2 weeks to come in now he is not able to get back to my house for another 2 weeks.


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## bholler (Jul 25, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Yes I made the contractor stop a few weeks ago and made him order me a stainless steel chimney liner.   I've been waiting on that.
> 
> Materials seem real short in the country right now. It took 2 weeks to come in now he is not able to get back to my house for another 2 weeks.


I still get the liners I order in 2 days like I always have.  And also no issues finding help.  At all.  If you pay well people will work.


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## tomseal6 (Aug 4, 2021)

Well,

Who wants to come over for hot chocolate and kahlua?


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## clancey (Aug 5, 2021)

You better make it a double...lol clancey


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## tomseal6 (Aug 5, 2021)




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## tomseal6 (Aug 18, 2021)

I'm sure I'm going to get scolded again somehow by everybody but here's the latest


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## tomseal6 (Aug 18, 2021)

FYI

My fire district told me NOT to wrap the liner  in insulation.   1 run of bricks in front is enough.    Both sides and rear have double runs


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## tomseal6 (Aug 18, 2021)

I'm guessing Clancey is now going to pass on the kahlua


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## bholler (Aug 18, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> FYI
> 
> My fire district told me NOT to wrap the liner  in insulation.   1 run of bricks in front is enough.    Both sides and rear have double runs


Did your fire district give you a written code variance?  You also realize that is absolutely not how that insert is meant to be installed right?


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## bholler (Aug 18, 2021)

Just curious how you plan on servicing it if that light wall liner burns out?   I have found they normally don't last long on old stoves like that which dump allot of heat up the chimney


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## tomseal6 (Aug 18, 2021)

He is putting the plate in front of it.   I forget what it called but it's a big huge cover plate that comes with the stove


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## bholler (Aug 18, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> He is putting the plate in front of it.   I forget what it called but it's a big huge cover plate that comes with the stove


But he is building the stove in a foot Infront of where the plate goes


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## tomseal6 (Aug 18, 2021)

It starts with the letter C..

My fire district does not like insulation on liners


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## tomseal6 (Aug 18, 2021)

No,

It's nearly flush with the front run of bricks


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## bholler (Aug 18, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> It starts with the letter C..
> 
> My fire district does not like insulation on liners


Ok what testing have they done that over rides all of the testing that tells us insulation is needed to make the install safe?   They don't just get to disregard the rules put in place to keep you safe just because they feel like it.


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## bholler (Aug 18, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> No,
> 
> It's nearly flush with the front run of bricks


No what?


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## bholler (Aug 18, 2021)

Remember when I questioned if your contractor knew what he was doing???   I now know the answer to that question.


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## tomseal6 (Aug 18, 2021)

Ok,  

Sorry to disappoint.    Stay warm this winter.   The kalua is on the shelf


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## bholler (Aug 18, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> Ok,
> 
> Sorry to disappoint.    Stay warm this winter.   The kalua is on the shelf


I am not the one halfway through an unsafe unserviceable install that could be fixed as this point.   I am not disappointed just making it very clear to anyone else reading this that this install is absolutely not done correctly.


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## bholler (Aug 18, 2021)

I mean you are running this on a 6" liner as well.  That make it questionable if the setup will even work.  And if it doesn't the whole face you just paid to have built will need to be demolished to switch to a properly sized liner.


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## Ctwoodtick (Aug 18, 2021)

To the OP-
    You solicit either attention or whatever from the people here to help, cheer you on, etc. you’ve received it.
   Some people have to delay making needed upgrades bc of finances. You apparently have at least some money to hire this contractor. What confuses me is that you are paying for crappy work that has been identified as dangerous by several here. You’ve asked no questions asking for clarification, just basically trolled through this thread. 
     Not even being cheeky here, but I’d put the Kahlua down for a minute, come to your senses, and then take some of the advice given here


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## tomseal6 (Aug 18, 2021)

Should I tear it out and have it redone?


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## tomseal6 (Aug 18, 2021)

Can I put some aluminum tape around it for the insulation?


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## bholler (Aug 18, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> Should I tear it out and have it redone?


I am simply trying to keep you from making a serious mistake.   The way this is being installed is completely wrong


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## tomseal6 (Aug 18, 2021)

What is wrong with the install besides there is not any insulation around the liner and it has a 6 inch flu?


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## bholler (Aug 18, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> What is wrong with the install besides there is not any insulation around the liner and it has a 6 inch flu?


The face that the insert is actually being built in way Infront of where the face of the fireplace is meant to be.  Meaning it will not be able to be removed if need be the convective jacket is buried behind the brick which means it won't work well and could overheat causing cracking that you won't know because you can't see it anymore.


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## bholler (Aug 18, 2021)

Not to mention I have no confidence in your contractors knowledge about chimneys stoves fireplaces etc to trust him to finish that off safely


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## tomseal6 (Aug 18, 2021)

What is a cinvection jacket?


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## bholler (Aug 18, 2021)

Also the smoke chamber area is only a single brick thick when it needs to be double thick.


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## bholler (Aug 18, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> What is a cinvection jacket?


The outer shell that surrounds the back of the insert.  That is where the face of the fireplace should be.


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## bholler (Aug 18, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> The convection jacket is going on.   It is in the garage.  It will easily be removable to inspect


That is the face place and the brick is tight to the front of the stove how will removing a face plate allow you to inspect anything?


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## tomseal6 (Aug 18, 2021)

So your telling me it doesn't matter if the convection jacket is surrounded by 2 runs of brick?


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## bholler (Aug 18, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> So your telling me it doesn't matter if the convection jacket is surrounded by 2 runs of brick?


I am telling you your insert is set way to far back behind the face that is being built.  The opening in the face is to small which won't allow the convective jacket to do its job of extracting heat from the stove that is buried in the fireplace.


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## bholler (Aug 18, 2021)

This insert is not a flush insert it is supposed to stick out about a foot if not more.


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## bholler (Aug 18, 2021)

It should be installed like this.  Not the way you are doing it.


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## john26 (Aug 19, 2021)

Not only does this set up look completely unsafe it seems like a lot of work and money  for an old stove that will burn wood like crazy and you cant even see the fire.


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## bholler (Aug 19, 2021)

john26 said:


> Not only does this set up look completely unsafe it seems like a lot of work and money  for an old stove that will burn wood like crazy and you cant even see the fire.


Yes I am pretty sure a new flush insert could have been purchased and installed properly for what is being spent on this "creation"


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## tomseal6 (Aug 19, 2021)

Unsafe stove photos #2


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## tomseal6 (Aug 19, 2021)

Looks like a pretty big enough hole to extract heat to me.


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## stoveliker (Aug 19, 2021)

is there a block-off plate in there?


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## tomseal6 (Aug 19, 2021)

Yes,  it made out of aluminum or galvanized.  I cant remember.


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## clancey (Aug 19, 2021)

Hey friend listen to the people here they are experts in this field...I am just an old lady but it seems to me that the picture is the wrong way to do this and you want to do it yourself I realize with your installer but it really seems wrong to me...Maybe close up the fireplace and sit on it for awhile to figure out a proper way with help from here..There is positively a way to fix this right and you will be much safer in the end---your a smart man and this problem can be solved but listen to these experts and start from square one and the first problem I see has been taking out the heat shield but what were you to do when it looked so very bad...Whats the next step in line--start from scratch and pull out that stove and go from there asking questions all along the way...You can do this thing and you will get this functioning the right way of this I am sure...Thank you for your service...old mrs clancey


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## tomseal6 (Aug 19, 2021)

Hardi back cement board, heat resistant and non combustible


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## clancey (Aug 19, 2021)

See what the experts say about that?  clancey


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## bholler (Aug 19, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> Hardi back cement board, heat resistant and non combustible


Where is the block off plate located?


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## tomseal6 (Aug 19, 2021)

All the way around the bottom of chimney


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## bholler (Aug 19, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> All the way around the bottom of chimney


How do you plan on replacing it when the cement board starts to deteriorate from the heat and stress of the liner and masonry expanding and contracting?  

How do you plan on replacing the undersized light wall liner when it either doesn't work because of being undersized or burns out?

How do you plan on replacing or repairing the 40+ year old stove if it needs to be?


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## tomseal6 (Aug 19, 2021)

Easy,  it will pull right out after you cut the stainless liner coupler, add a new 1 and put "a" stove back in it.


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## tomseal6 (Aug 19, 2021)

Realisticly,   a  grandpa bear with a top flu will go right in there.


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## bholler (Aug 19, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> Easy,  it will pull right out after you cut the stainless liner coupler, add a new 1 and put "a" stove back in it.


But the stove doesn't fit out the hole.


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## bholler (Aug 19, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> Realisticly,   a  grandpa bear with a top flu will go right in there.


How it won't fit through the hole.  And it needs an 8" liner as well.  Or atleast a 7"


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## tomseal6 (Aug 19, 2021)

You would have to pull the stove forward and tilt it back some and drag it out.

Not a problem.


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## tomseal6 (Aug 19, 2021)

You can buy an adapter.


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## bholler (Aug 19, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> You would have to pull the stove forward and tilt it back some and drag it out.
> 
> Not a problem.



But the back is larger that the opening in the brick.  This is basic geometry


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## bholler (Aug 19, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> You would have to pull the stove forward and tilt it back some and drag it out.
> 
> Not a problem.



But the back is larger that the opening in the brick.  This is basic geometry


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## tomseal6 (Aug 19, 2021)

It's almost done and will be tested for all of yous concerned.    I'll make a video.

How's that?


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## bholler (Aug 19, 2021)

Just a question do you live with other people?


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## bholler (Aug 19, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> You can buy an adapter.


What exactly will an adapter do?


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## tomseal6 (Aug 19, 2021)

I do see your point.    Yes there would likely have to be some masonry cutting on the inside brick edges to pull the stove out with some masonry work after another stove went in

Bholler,   I'm not going to answer that.


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## tomseal6 (Aug 19, 2021)

An adapter for a 8 inch top flu to go to a 6 inch steel liner.  

Or just have a professional like I had weld on a 6 inch heavy duty flu.


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## bholler (Aug 19, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> An adapter for a 8 inch top flu to go to a 6 inch steel liner.
> 
> Or just have a professional like I had weld on a 6 inch heavy duty flu.


But just welding a 6" outlet onto a stove that needs a larger flue doesn't change the size flue that is needed for it to work properly.


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## clancey (Aug 19, 2021)

Yea at least get the stove out so that we can look at that fireplace and really examine it...sounds exciting doesn't it--examine it--lol  I do have a question what is a adapter? Video would be good but don't fire it up until the experts take a look at it and analysed what you did--easy peasy just pull it out but be careful...By the way after you get this all fixed I have a beautiful wood stove for you to consider buying just for ambiance...old mrs clancey


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## bholler (Aug 19, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> I do see your point.    Yes there would likely have to be some masonry cutting on the inside brick edges to pull the stove out with some masonry work after another stove went in
> 
> Bholler,   I'm not going to answer that.


I already know the answer you previously said you had a family to watch out for.  Are they aware of the large number of safety compromises you chose to make with this install?


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## bholler (Aug 19, 2021)

clancey said:


> Yea at least get the stove out so that we can look at that fireplace and really examine it...sounds exciting doesn't it--examine it--lol  I do have a question what is a adapter? Video would be good but don't fire it up until the experts take a look at it and analysed what you did--easy peasy just pull it out but be careful...By the way after you get this all fixed I have a beautiful wood stove for you to consider buying just for ambiance...old mrs clancey


It can't be pulled out the opening that was built is smaller than the back of the stove.   Which is why I repeatedly said this install was unserviceable


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## clancey (Aug 19, 2021)

That makes total sense bholler to me and can he enlarge the opening somehow so that he can get it out and being safe in the process--Is this possible for it really needs to be pulled out at this stage of it...Hey Tomseal6 can you enlarge that opening so that you can get that stove out in safety?...Don't want the fireplace to fall in on you or anything--be careful--can you do that?  clancey


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## bholler (Aug 19, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> I do see your point.    Yes there would likely have to be some masonry cutting on the inside brick edges to pull the stove out with some masonry work after another stove went in
> 
> Bholler,   I'm not going to answer that.


I only asked because I get that you think this is a big joke and that nothing can go wrong.  But is their safety a joke to you as well?  I am seriously trying to help you.


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## tomseal6 (Aug 19, 2021)

Bholler,

Yes, I live with somebody.  My boyfriend and I are getting married next month and going to adopt.  He likes it on the bottom when the Fisher stove outside our bedroom is cooking nice and warm.


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## bholler (Aug 19, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> Bholler,
> 
> Yes, I live with somebody.  My boyfriend and I are getting married next month and going to adopt.  He likes it on the bottom when the Fisher stove outside our bedroom is cooking nice and warm.
> 
> ...


So you have a layer of cement board then wood???   Great idea 

Also what is under the tile Infront of the fireplace?


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## tomseal6 (Aug 19, 2021)

bholler said:


> So you have a layer of cement board then wood???   Great idea
> 
> Also what is under the tile Infront of the fireplace?



Cement board.


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## bholler (Aug 19, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> Cement board.


And then what?


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## tomseal6 (Aug 19, 2021)

Aluminum tape.


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## bholler (Aug 19, 2021)

More jokes they will certainly make all of these safety issues ok.

Again I am just trying to help keep you safe.


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## bholler (Aug 19, 2021)

Do you understand the concept of heat transfer through materials at all??


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## tomseal6 (Aug 19, 2021)

Yes, of course I do.   Do you know that I have ran the open insert for the last several years before I had this done with just the clay liners.  

I do understand where your coming from but at no time has anything ever been unsafe.


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## bholler (Aug 19, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> Yes, of course I do.   Do you know that I have ran the open insert for the last several years before I had this done with just the clay liners.
> 
> I do understand where your coming from but at no time has anything ever been unsafe.


If you were running a slammer it was unsafe whether you want to admit it or not.  

Do you know what pyrolysis is?


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## tomseal6 (Aug 19, 2021)

Yes, you can only heat it so many times before it crumbles


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## stoveliker (Aug 19, 2021)

... and when it is organic matter (as in 2*4s separated by insufficient distance from a hot pipe), it won't crumble but it might ignite. Out of sight. Hence the push for a safe install according to code.


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## bholler (Aug 19, 2021)

stoveliker said:


> ... and when it is organic matter (as in 2*4s separated by insufficient distance from a hot pipe), it won't crumble but it might ignite. Out of sight. Hence the push for a safe install according to code.


Or subfloor under insufficient hearth protection.  Or wood overtop of a layer of cement board right overtop of an old insert.


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## john26 (Aug 20, 2021)

If you can make the setup safe you might want to consider swapping  the timberline for something like this.




__





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## tomseal6 (Aug 20, 2021)

Holy smokes is my kitchen going to be warm this winter.   Got it dialed in perfectly at 450 with some scrap lumber.


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## bholler (Aug 20, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> Holy smokes is my kitchen going to be warm this winter.   Got it dialed in perfectly at 450 with some scrap lumber.


450 where?


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## tomseal6 (Aug 20, 2021)

Flu.  To Seat the sealant in place


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## tomseal6 (Aug 20, 2021)

Now who wants an invitation to my wedding next month?


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## bholler (Aug 20, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> Flu.  To Seat the sealant in place


Sealant won't hold up there but that's a good temp for sure especially in warm weather.  So it seems like the 6" will work.  Doesn't fix any of the safety issues but it burns


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## clancey (Aug 20, 2021)

I am a worry wort but it looks good but what do I know?? I sure hope everything works out okay and it remains "safe" for you and your love one The stove looks real good and anyway you could get a telescope camera on the chimney just to be sure that everything is up and up.. ..Congrats on your upcoming wedding and bless both of you with wonderful health for the future years- at least the best that it can be..
clancey









						A Heart Entwined
					

Roses and clematis form a decorative display. Also includes a puzzle to play!



					www.jacquielawson.com


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## tomseal6 (Aug 20, 2021)

The sealant used was the proper furnace glue or cement whatever it is.  

I had to heat the stove up today and run in for that stuff to set in.

I have am AWESOME updraft BTW with a 6 inch flu.

The trick is to burn well seasoned wood


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## clancey (Aug 20, 2021)

I hope when I light my stove that it does as well and it will be lite by my installer on Sept 28th and might make a party of it.. lol..I have kiln dried wood and wanted to get out to a fireplace store with my friend to buy a few things and gauges and other things as well that they might offer  but with all of this covid now I am just staying home...Your stove looks nice...clancey


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## bholler (Aug 20, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> The sealant used was the proper furnace glue or cement whatever it is.
> 
> I had to heat the stove up today and run in for that stuff to set in.
> 
> ...


Yes I assumed furnace cement was used and it won't hold up and should not be needed.

The concern with a 6" flue on stoves like these is many times 6" simply doesn't have enough volume for the stove to work properly.   As the flue is downsized volume reduces in prefer for your stove to work correctly velocity needs to increase greatly to compensate for the reduced volume.  I have found many times this just isn't possible and the stove will never run properly.  Apparently yours can.   Seasoned wood while fantastic simply won't fix a flue that is to small.


But again performance concerns are only one very small part of the problem with your install.   There are still very serious safety issues whether you think they are a joke or not.


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## tomseal6 (Sep 21, 2021)

No joke and sorry about making it seem that way.  

I was able to test the fireplace out on a 30 degree night here in MI and my flu temperature remained 400 degrees for several hours making it 80 degrees in my kitchen.  

The large opening really dumps and radiates heat out into the kitchen.  

I'm going to order a door corner fan to have some if that heat pushed in my mudroom which will eliminate the need for me to use my propane ventless wall heater unless going away from home for a while.

With the exception of some safety issues yous have it heated my kitchen all night with no issues and I'm happy with the install.


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## brenndatomu (Sep 22, 2021)

tomseal6 said:


> FYI
> 
> My fire district told me NOT to wrap the liner  in insulation.   1 run of bricks in front is enough.    Both sides and rear have double runs


Your fire district, they are obviously pyros lining up future business...don't burn that thing while you sleep!


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## coaly (Sep 22, 2021)

Steel plate sheets and welds do not do well with uneven heating.

Here is what you create without proper clearance to the front half of the Insert;

The front is a single wall sheet made to radiate heat into the heated area. This is radiant heat.
The back portion with outer shell is designed for convected heat. A blower helps move the heated air out the top vent, heating by convection.

Fisher had to recommend 3 inches of clearance to masonry or non-combustible walls around stove due to cooling the side and rear sheets of stoves in an alcove or hearth. Designed to radiate in all directions, stoves without enough air flow caused the front cooled by radiation outward, and the back and sides stayed hot. This temperature differential caused welds to crack, sides to buckle, and was one of the only warranty issues Fisher had. Hence the minimum air flow clearance requirement.

The rear of this Insert will cool by convection with a blower. The front will not radiate into the room as designed and remains much hotter than the back. The firebox is the front outer box that extends rearward inside the air chamber all the way to the back. This is far too much temperature differential for the side and top sheets. 1/4 inch steel plate cannot overheat and expand in the front and contract in the rear on a single sheet.

Also the convection air outlet is designed for the heated air to rise up and over an angled deflector plate which deflects heat from mantel when the air outlet is flush with fireplace face. This rising of hot air allows atmospheric air pressure to PUSH cool air into the air intake at the bottom of Insert front. You will not have the airflow to cause the convected air to circulate around the rear half of firebox inside the air chamber without a mechanical blower.

The reason for removing the heat by convection from the rear half inside the original fireplace is to heat the indoor air, instead of masonry. The masonry mass does radiate heat into the room, but it also radiates upward carrying more heat through the roof and outside. An interior chimney with second floor above it benefits the most from heating the mass of masonry.

If the original masonry chimney does not have proper clearance to combustible framing, the liner must be insulated by code. Local governments can add to codes making them more strict, but cannot take away from your statewide requirements or national Standard of NFPA 211 which still applies.

I assume there is no flue damper??


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## tomseal6 (Feb 7, 2022)

I have a fan installed blowing hot air OUT and into the kitchen for those that did not know this.  

Please do not scold me but I have had several months already of wood heat in my kitchen.


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## tomseal6 (Feb 7, 2022)

Hope yous enjoy 😉


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