# ECONOBURN ANY USERS?



## SUPPLYGUY (Mar 10, 2008)

LOOKED AT AN ECONOBURN THIS WEEKEND AND WAS WONDERING IF ANYONE HAD ANY HISTORY WITH THIS UNIT. I WOULD LIKE TO FIND OUT ABOUT BURN TIMES, I HAVE A NEW YORKER WOOD BOILER NOW.LOOKING TO MAKE THE JUMP TO GASIFICATION.


----------



## Eric Johnson (Mar 10, 2008)

Welcome to the Boiler Room. No need for all caps.

We have several EconoBurn users registered here, as well as at least three dealers. Hopefully somebody will drop in with some answers to your questions.


----------



## BrownianHeatingTech (Mar 10, 2008)

SUPPLYGUY said:
			
		

> I WOULD LIKE TO FIND OUT ABOUT BURN TIMES



Burn time will depend upon the boiler size and the heat load.

I would recommend using a thermal storage tank, in which case the burn time is non-critical as you heat from the tank, and just use the boiler to "re-charge" the tank like a thermal battery...

Joe


----------



## flying tomato (Mar 10, 2008)

Why are the Econoburn guys always yelling? Is it a prerequisite to the purchase of one of these units, or does it develop upon ownership?


----------



## skidsteer (Mar 10, 2008)

THE YELLING STARTS AFTER THE SAIL !! . I was quite discouraged with my 200k unit I installed it last year around this time burnt it a bit last year boiled it over every time I used it .Talked to the salesmen frequentley . Now this year started the unit up 10/27
and been burning it to date except for about a week the turbulator arm had broke didnt have as many boilovers because the weather has been colder through the winter . BURN times are about six hrs max that is with 20-30 deg weather with using all solid -
hardwood mixed pieces round and split factory said waterstorage was not necessary but I beg to differ almost sold my unit but I'm 
going to hang in there with it but I'm adding water storage . IF I didn't find this site and get the info that it offers I would of sold my 
gassifyer and bought a owb I think that would of been a mistake and it would of went against every reason why I wanted a gasser 
in the first place


----------



## SUPPLYGUY (Mar 11, 2008)

The tarm is the next one I am going to look at. These boilers seem a little tricky to run. Do they really burn less wood? I hate to replace my new yorker wood boiler and get headaches.


----------



## BrownianHeatingTech (Mar 11, 2008)

skidsteer said:
			
		

> THE YELLING STARTS AFTER THE SAIL !! . I was quite discouraged with my 200k unit I installed it last year around this time burnt it a bit last year boiled it over every time I used it .Talked to the salesmen frequentley . Now this year started the unit up 10/27
> and been burning it to date except for about a week the turbulator arm had broke didnt have as many boilovers because the weather has been colder through the winter . BURN times are about six hrs max that is with 20-30 deg weather with using all solid -
> hardwood mixed pieces round and split factory said waterstorage was not necessary but I beg to differ almost sold my unit but I'm
> going to hang in there with it but I'm adding water storage . IF I didn't find this site and get the info that it offers I would of sold my
> ...



As I asked in the other thread, how did you size the unit to your house?  200k seems rather large for a house the size that you mentioned, in CT.

What's the calculated heat loss for the house?

Joe


----------



## Nofossil (Mar 11, 2008)

SUPPLYGUY said:
			
		

> The tarm is the next one I am going to look at. These boilers seem a little tricky to run. Do they really burn less wood? I hate to replace my new yorker wood boiler and get headaches.



There is probably a bit more of a learning curve to get to the point where you have it nailed, but they're really not too bad. They do burn a lot less wood - probably in the range of 40% less than a well-operated conventional boiler. I've burned 3 1/2 cords so far to provide 100% of my heat for the house, hot tub, and domestic hot water since October. It's a 3500 square foot house in Vermont.


----------



## SUPPLYGUY (Mar 12, 2008)

Thats the info I want to hear. Why orlan eko25 ? How often do you burn?  Thank you for the info.


----------



## Nofossil (Mar 13, 2008)

SUPPLYGUY said:
			
		

> Thats the info I want to hear. Why orlan eko25 ? How often do you burn?  Thank you for the info.



In cold weather, I burn once per day - initial starting load, a refill in an hour, and a second refill 3 or 4 hours later if it's really cold. Average is 7 hours of fire per day. In warmer weather (last week, for instance) I can skip days.


----------



## ebbci05 (Mar 14, 2008)

Supply Guy, I also had and experience like skidsteer.  I bought an econoburn 100,000  in december and have had so many headaches with it I was contemplating selling mine also.  I did have storage but my problem was that I couldn't heat it up.  I went through a lot of wood in only a couple on months more so than most guys use all winter.  Don't know yet what the deal is.  The longest burn time I could get was 6 hours and most of the time it was four.  Everybody on here will tell you there is a learning curve, but I have had nothing but headaches and short nights(getting up to keep the boiler going )  I found that I need to mix my wood with kiln dried if I want to get even close to 180 water.  My turbulator arm broke in the first month, and I also had a couple of other things wrong that shouldn't have been wrong on a $6000 boiler.  Anyway,  talking to the company and will try a 150,000.  If this doesn't work any better than the one I got now, it will be out the door next year.  Hope this helps a little.


----------



## SUPPLYGUY (Mar 14, 2008)

Thanks guys Im going to look at the 0rlan biomax next.


----------



## skidsteer (Mar 15, 2008)

ERIC, just curious as an econoburn owner what else broke on your boiler 
On mine so far just my turbulator arm broke and they told me that my boiler was the first one they ever seen brake.
On the bottom of my boiler ware the ash clean out door and the firebrick refractory is located I have on both upper sides some strips of sheet metal starting to hang down just curious what that might be doesn't seem to hamper the operation of the boiler


----------



## ebbci05 (Mar 15, 2008)

skidsteer said:
			
		

> ERIC, just curious as an econoburn owner what else broke on your boiler
> On mine so far just my turbulator arm broke and they told me that my boiler was the first one they ever seen brake.
> On the bottom of my boiler ware the ash clean out door and the firebrick refractory is located I have on both upper sides some strips of sheet metal starting to hang down just curious what that might be doesn't seem to hamper the operation of the boiler



Well, when we got everything hooked up and started to fill it with water, the pressure relief valve leaked water really bad.  It looked like they threaded the nipple that extended out of the boiler too far.  The PRV is located under the top part of the jacket so to fix it wasn't the easiest.  We ended up cutting a hole thru the top jacket and ran a longer nipple thru it and put a new PRV above the boiler.(easier access)  Also, it had a leak on the bottom of the boiler.  On mine there are four "studs" I call them about 1/4" below the bottom plate.  It leaked water out of one of those also.  This problem we couldn't fix and that is the main reason why I am getting a new one.  Then after that, the turbulator handle broke so I can't clean back there any more.  I plan to clean it out when the weather breaks or just wait until the new one arrives.  Also, I don't know about the ease of opening the doors on most boilers, but my gasification door sticks really bad, to the point where I need to use a hammer to pry it open it needed.


----------



## SnowTraveler (Mar 19, 2008)

Not real pleased with my 150, my first experience with a wood boiler.  4 hour burn times are normal, pressure relief valve failed quickly.  I replaced it with a industrial rated one.  Now it is leaking from the bottom, not sure where from.   Because I have so much money invested, I am a bit embarrassed I sold my wife on this idea, kinda in the dog house now.


----------



## SUPPLYGUY (Mar 19, 2008)

IM going to look at the eko and the biomax next. Is there anyone that uses the biomax yet? If so how do you like it ?


----------



## skidsteer (Mar 19, 2008)

Is there anybody out there that is happy with their econoburn and that didnot have any mechanical problems with it ???
And was just wondering the thing that really bothers me with mine because I've not had as serious of problems as some of you is did the sales people that you bought your boilers from tell you that it would at least have a 8 to 10 hr burn time that was a very important thing for me when I was looking into all of the available gasification boilers


----------



## ebbci05 (Mar 20, 2008)

Lube Guy, I am in the same boat you are.  I told my wife that this boiler would be awesome and save us money in the future.  Now I feel like an idiot because the boiler don't work and we got 10,000 invested in it.  That could have been used many other places.  I can only get 4 hour burn times and was getting up at 3:00 am to fill it.  Even now, the weather is warming up to around 30-40 during the day and I have to keep a fire going all day, and it still stays around 140-150.  I think maybe if I get a day around 50-60 I might be able to only burn once, wouldn't that be great  I am interested to hear about your 150.  That is what I am supposed to get to replace mine.  It scares me to think that you had some of the same problems that I had.  I tell you what, if I have as much trouble with the new one, I would like to send it back to econoburn in pieces. (just had to vent a little).  I too would like to know if there are any econoburn users who are happy.


----------



## skidsteer (Mar 20, 2008)

ERIC, I talked to my salesmen that I bought my boiler from and he told me they can't keep up with the demand that they were selling faster than they could make them so I offered mine back at a loss to have them resell mine to some other luck customer at a discount I don't like reselling anything never mind trying to sell something that is inferior and have to deal with the people that bought it . IM in the same boat with my situation have invested at leat 10k and didn't even start water storage and i'm starting to burn oil now lost the love of getting up at 2or 3 in the morning to keeper going


----------



## SnowTraveler (Mar 20, 2008)

I've got over 12K invested because I over engineered my control system and zone piping, using mostly industrial components that I purchased through my industrial contacts.  It was supposed to be the utopia of heating systems, but has left me quite disappointed.  The heart of the system, the econoburn 150, is not the machine I hoped it would be.   I feed it like a hungry teenager and sometimes it does not make 180 deg F, this with excellent wood.  Other times, when demand is low, it overheats because the injection blower does not actually slow down enough for a slow burn.  I have added 300 G storage to help smooth things out. This has helped, but it still gobbles up the wood.  A 4 hour burn time is actually a generous number, I feed it often.


----------



## SnowTraveler (Mar 20, 2008)

I need to also add that my unit was considered over sized at the time of ordering, as my home is a 2000 square foot modular ranch, very well insulated, with a fully finished (insulated) basement.  They did recommend the 100, but I went with the 150 to be safe.


----------



## ebbci05 (Mar 20, 2008)

Skidsteer, what did the salesman say about taking the old one back and trying to sell it.  That was my consideration also, but didn't know if they would do that or not.  Here's my story.  I installed mine at the end of December '07 and had the leaks and everything else.  So My dad called them up and told them what happened.  So they sent a new 100 up to replace it.  But during the coarse of the use I found out real fast that the 100, wasn't even close to heating my house.  I installed a 512 gallon STSS storage system and didn't use it because it wouldn't heat that and my infloor and rads.  When it warmed up to 25-30 I shut everything off except the tank and used kiln dried wood.  Then and only then could I get the tank to 175.  I haven't hooked up my DHW yet which I was looking forward to using also  So now  Econoburn offered to replace my 100 with the 150.  The more I listen and read from other econoburn users the more skeptical I am getting about replacing it.  All I know is that my scrap 2x4's are gone and my oak seems to walk away.  Just bought another 2 face cord a week or so and it is almost gone again.  Oh, ya, I have a HX in my shed to keep that above freezing.  Can't use it, which really sucks.
Just ran out of fuel oil this morning.  Now I will really feel the pain of the boiler.  The fuel oil helped me out by running in the morning because the boiler was out and cold.  Took a long time to get back up to temp.  Also my wife would use it when she came home because of the same problem.  Don't want her to be cold if you know what I mean.  A happy household means you need to keep the wife happy


----------



## SnowTraveler (Mar 20, 2008)

Another important thing that I need to add, I am a very optimistic person and will generally not complain about something unless it is a real issue.  I will go out of my way to let people know if something works well, and I would have done that here if this thing turned out to be what it was supposed to be.   I plan on some additional tweaking and will let you know if things improve.


----------



## SnowTraveler (Mar 20, 2008)

Gopherwood, our problems sound similar.


----------



## ebbci05 (Mar 20, 2008)

Lube Guy, I also don't like to complain or knock people down.  But, my biggest problem is I don't have 10,000 + laying around waiting to be used.  I had to take all I could to put this system in.  When, it doesn't work or do what it is supposed to do, ya thats when I got upset.  If I had spent 2000 for the sytem I could deal with a few issues or problems.   I know that if something like this happened to my customer, I wouldn't be in business very long.  I build houses, and it would be like having a customer pay 200,000 for a custome built house and instead give them a double wide.  That's my feelings anyway.


----------



## skidsteer (Mar 20, 2008)

ERIC, I would agree I'M mad at my self on my purchase I thought that I really resurched every thing from a to z but I never checked to see how long these boilers were around . As far as econoburn taking back the boiler my salesman kinda stumbled when I asked the question and said he could not make that decision that he would kick it around with who ever at the company and he would call me back never herd from him gave him a couple of days and then called back and then I got my answer that they don't buy back boilers but I'M confused because IF you read their web site IT says that you can purchase used reconditioned equipment ware do they get them from if they don't buy back boilers . I thought I had a good chance because when I had asked was at the begining of this year hardley any burn time on my boiler at that time now it has 8+ cords threw it  
Buy the way I feel the same way you guys feel dont like to complain always try to give a fair shot and would not bad mouth any one or thing but I feel that I was had buy my salesman  STILL LOOKING FOR THAT SPECIAL SOMEONE THAT IS IN LOVE WITH THEIR ECONOBURN


----------



## altheating (Mar 21, 2008)

Well, looks like I am the first to love my Econoburn. I have been using mine since May 2007. Used it all summer to heat my domestic hot water. I liked it so well I contacted the factory to see if I could secure a dealership. I took on the first dealership in New York State. Since then I have approximately 40 units up and running. Yes I have had a few minor issues. The turbulator handle, shear bolt design is being changed. Most of that issue is the customer thinking the handle needs to be moved 360 degrees, when in reality it needs to be rotated 10-12 degrees. The issue with the leaking pressure releif valve, the new boilers will have the valve on the outside, not under the cover. The other issues have been user related. I tell my customers to forget all they ever knew about using the old style boilers. These gasification units are truly different to oprate. You can not burn bundles of newspapers or magazines in them. The papers and magazines fall to the bottom closing off the gasification nozzle. You need to take a few seconds to make sure the firewood is properly placed so it doesn't bridge. Your firewood can not be longer than the firebox either. I tell all my customers tthey need three weeks to learn to operate the Econoburn, some need more most need less. 
I used to have a indoor model outdoor wood boiler prior to installing my EBW-200. It would burn 35+ cord of hardwood a heating season (5200 sq ft house with 18 ft vaulted ceilings). The Econoburn now burns 10 a year. I have also discovered that I have ground water penetrating my underground lines (100' of line). I don't know how many BTU's i'm loosing an hour, but the snow melts over the line. The line will be replaced this spring. That should eliminate a couple of cord. If you do the calculations my usage of 1500 gallons of fueloil a year calculates out to approximately 9 cord of firewood usage at 70% efficiency. I would say that I am right on track with my usage. Especially if you consider the heat loss in my lines.

The coversion program can be found here: http://www.puc.state.nh.us/Gas-Steam/naturalgasvsalternativefuels.htm


One particular install is getting by with 5.5 cord for his 2200 sq ft well ventilated hoouse with domestic hot water. He has told so many people about his boiler that it has generated 6-7 other sales for me. As a mater of fact a EBW-200 gets delivered today as a result of his recomendations.

I think most boilers will have issues, some are the fault of the manufacturer (look at the Greenwood and Adobe issues in this forum) others are user related. 

My experiance with the Econoburn line has been nothing but exceptional.
I know that the factory has just passed the new EPA emissions standards for outdoor wood boilers with flying colors. They have been certified for heating season use as well as year round use. This is so important now that states like New york are going to pass legislation that will require all outdoor boilers be certified to the new standards. Very few OWB's will be able to obtain this certification. see this link: http://www.dec.ny.gov/regulations/36816.html
or this on that is the actual draft of the new law. http://www.lungnh.org/site/c.cnKFITNsEkG/b.3794751/


----------



## ebbci05 (Mar 21, 2008)

I'm glad to hear that at least one person is happy with their econoburn.  I still am very unhappy.  This morning I woke up to a 63 degree house because my wood bridged.  This was my fault because I filled it extra full to try and get a full nights burn out of it.  So I got up at 5:30 and fired it up.  First with some kindling and a few 2x4 scraps.  Then I added my oak on top of that.  Well, it has been an hour and a half since firing and my water is only up to 138.  I also shut off my storage so that it would heat up faster to my infloor and rads.  I messed around with the fan a little bit, but doesn't seem to make much of a difference.  Seems like it should heat 28 gallons of water faster than that.  Or maybe I just have too high of expectations  Ya, its like I said earlier in this thread, that since I am out of oil, I am really feeling the pain.  Just hope I can get the house warmed up before the wife wakes up.
I don't know if the "lemon law" applies to boilers, but I feel like I got a lemon instead of an exotic fruit.


----------



## altheating (Mar 21, 2008)

Eric, A few things to check, first - is the back area in the bottom burn chamber clean. The area under the heat tubes (way in the back of the bottom chamber) clean of ash? Next how long are you burning with the gasification bypass gate open? When burning a new fire I find that allowing a new fire to burn for about a half hour is a must. With the gasification style boiler you must have a coal bed for the boiler to operate in gasification. I bet you built a fire let it burn a few minutes and pulled the gate closed. The boiler just can not get gasifying with out a coal bed. I can get a new installation up to 180 in less than an hour.


----------



## altheating (Mar 21, 2008)

eric. Forgot one other thing. Sometimes when building a new fire I have had customers put kindling in and the piece falls directly over the gasification nozzle and it plugs the nozzle. I always place the first two pieces of kindling sideways in the top chamber this will hold the rest of the wood off of the gasification slot. Hope this helps.


----------



## SnowTraveler (Mar 21, 2008)

The only way to get a full nights burn is to get up at 1 am and feed it, then again at 5 am.  That is reality.  Don't try to tell me otherwise, because that is the truth.   Not a user related issue, mine burns fine and I have learned the knack of firing it and keep it burning well,  but a 4 hour burn on a full load is all I can get from mine, even when it goes to low throttle.   Refiring is fairly easy IF you maintain a hot bed of coals, but don't let those coals go out, then you will be like Eric and need to start from scratch.  I can't imagine those happy customers are not getting up during the night to fire their econoburns.   My system is nicely installed and I have no heat waste, as I said before, my house is very well insulated.   I have obtained technical data on the electronic controls from the manufacturers and will attempt to tune my injection blower to run slower, that may help on low fire to conserve wood.


----------



## skidsteer (Mar 21, 2008)

RICH, FINALLY FOUND SOMEONE HAPPY WITH THEIR BOILER I'M BURNING THE EBW 200 AND NOT GETTING MUCH MOORE THAN 4 HRS MY BE 6 IF IT'S FULL OF BIG ROUND WOOD BUT THE TEMP SUFFERS .
I TALKED TO THE FACTORY ABOUT CHANGING THE FAN SPEED TO RAMP DOWN LOWER AND I WAS TOLD THAT IT WAS SET UP TO THE LOWEST POSSIBLE SETTING ANY LOWER WOULD CAUSE VOLTAGE PROBLEMS AND PREMATURELY BURN THE FAN OUT.
ALSO IN A PAST BLOG I HAD MENTIONED THAT I WAS SEEING NARROW SHEETMETAL STRIPS HANGING DOWN IN THE LOWER HALF OF MY UNIT I HAVE OVER COME SOME OF MY DISAPPOINTMENTS WITH MY BOILER BUT I'M CONCERNED WITH THE LONGEVITY OF THE UNIT. WOULD LOVE TO HAVE ANY ECONOBURN DEALER BUY MY BOILER BACK AND START FROM SCRATCH
WITH A NEW GASSER


----------



## SnowTraveler (Mar 21, 2008)

Keep in mind the happy person is a dealer.  Thanks for the heads up on the fan speed, I will research that further.  I am hoping some other happy Econoburn owners will jump in here, especially with regards to the burn times.


----------



## ebbci05 (Mar 21, 2008)

Altheating, I clean out the back of my boiler at least weekly as best as I can with the ceramic in.  The other day I took them out (because the fire was out)so I could clean it out completely.  There was some ash but not too much, doesn't seem to help if it is clean or not.  Also, it doesn't matter if I have a bed of coals or not.  Even with a bed of coals as you say it will still struggle to heat up.  I had a very hot fire in it the other day using only 2x4's and kiln dried wood.  It would get up to about 165-170 but not any hotter.  I have had some coals or pieces block the nozzle a couple of times but I pushed them away.  Also, how can one maintain a bed of coals when you only get 4 hours of burn time?  I like to sleep more than 4 hours at a time,and I can't come home for lunch everyday.  Plus, it doesn't put out enough heat to get my storage up to temp.  I only got my storage tank up to 150 burning all day yesterday.  Luckily I had a slow day so I could mess with it.  I had to turn my manifold off that supplies 600' of infloor and 2 panel rads to get it to that temp  So, I guess that if I could come home every 4 hours and stoke my fire and shut down everything but my tank, I could get the water up to temp.  What keeps the bed of coals from blocking the nozzle?  To me it would seem that coals are just as small as kindling that gets burned up.  I started a fire this morning at 5:30.  It is now 10:30 .  5 hours of continous burn.  I have the manifold off and just supplying the tank.  Oh, ya i do have a heat exchanger in my oil furnace that is also running once in a while, but not too much.  The temp of my water is 160, and my tank is at 135.  Needless to say I am still burning all day long when the temp. out side is reaching 30-40.  All I know is that the problems with my boiler go above and beyond user errors.  I could go on but I won't.


----------



## leaddog (Mar 21, 2008)

Lube guy said:
			
		

> The only way to get a full nights burn is to get up at 1 am and feed it, then again at 5 am.  That is reality.  Don't try to tell me otherwise, because that is
> the truth.   Not a user related issue, mine burns fine and I have learned the knack of firing it and keep it burning well,  but a 4 hour burn on a full load is all
> I can get from mine, even when it goes to low throttle.   Refiring is fairly easy IF you maintain a hot bed of coals, but don't let those coals go out, then you will be like Eric and need to start from scratch.  I can't imagine those happy customers are not getting up during the night to fire their econoburns.   My system is nicely installed and I have no heat waste, as I said before, my house is very well insulated.   I have obtained technical data on the electronic controls from the manufacturers and will attempt to tune my injection blower to run slower, that may help on low fire to conserve wood.



I think the sales pitch that storage isn't needed is coming back to bite. As a learning gasifier user of a eko80 I believe it is very important to have stoage and the more the better. 300 gal isn't enough as all it will do is help keep the boiler from short cycling a little bit but won't store many BTU's to heat the house for very long. Most gasifiers will burn there load in 4hrs. If you idle them they will burn longer but will not be as efficient. If you pull the water temp down and don't keep the water temp up in the boiler it will take along time to get it to gasifiy good. If I put a full load of cold wood in a cold boiler it will take a very long time to get the water temp up. If I have my water temp up to 160*f + with in just a few minutes the gasification will be heating it up. They work best at 170 to 180*. So I think the solution to alot of your problems is to have high boiler water temp protection and run alot of storage. I haven't seen the econoburn boilers but I understand they are a take off or copy of the eko's. They are a new co. and when I heard they were telling costomers that the were better built than the eko and didn't need any storage it don't surprize me that there is some people unhappy. As people learn how to use them I'm sure they will become more satified and as the co. learns how to properly promote and educate the customers and not try and run down other boilers to make a sale they will make have many satified people.
We (new gasifier users ) are all having to rethink how to use these. They are new here in the US and our uses and houses are different than in other parts of the world and we heat differently. We have to get out of the OWB ideas and learn how to fire these but I am very convinced that gasifiers, in some shape or form, are the cheapest most pracical way to heat rural America. I do believe that chip gasifiers will be the future when they come on line. Chip bio-mass is everywhere.
leaddog


----------



## SnowTraveler (Mar 21, 2008)

leaddog, thanks for your candid and beneficial input.  I now believe that a lot more storage will benefit me and the others here, especially after reading some of the other threads on this forum discussing storage and the benefit of running at high fire for a long time.   I just feel bad that myself and others are somewhat being guinea pigs in this scenario, especially with so much money being spent on these machines up front.  It is a lot of money to spend and then have to spend more for storage solutions.


----------



## leaddog (Mar 21, 2008)

Lube guy said:
			
		

> leaddog, thanks for your candid and beneficial input.  I now believe that a lot more storage will benefit me and the others here, especially after reading some of the other threads on this forum discussing storage and the benefit of running at high fire for a long time.   I just feel bad that myself and others are somewhat being guinea pigs in this scenario, especially with so much money being spent on these machines up front.  It is a lot of money to spend and then have to spend more for storage solutions.



Don't feel to bad. Most of us have been guinea pigs as gasifiers are so new here. Most of the dealers are new to them also so we are all learning together. I'm so glad this forum is here and I tell everyone thatis thinking about wood boilers to come here as there is alot of knowledge here. I started to reasearch gasifiers last winter and there wasn't much info out there but the more I learned the more I was convinced that storage was the key. We here in the US have big homes and want to only stoke a fire a couple times a day. The manufaturers don't like to talk about storage as it is so different from what WE know. I have to give Tarm, eko, and garn credit as they recommend it up front. All the others said it wasn't needed. Burn them HOT and store and you will be happy.
leaddog


----------



## ebbci05 (Mar 21, 2008)

I agree that storage probably is the best thing.  I did get storage when I got mine.(512 gal.)  Probably not quite enough but should do pretty good.  My problem is that my boiler won't get my storage up to temp.  Like today, I have only been feeding the tank and my HX to my furnace which only runs for 10-15min/hour.  As of right now, the tank is only at 150.  The boiler has been at full burn since 5:30.  If I could heat my tank to 175 in 4-6 hours and then use that I would be a lot happier, that's just not the case for me.  Going thru ALOT of wood


----------



## Eric Johnson (Mar 22, 2008)

It sounds to me like maybe you've got a heat exchanger problem, Eric. Have you tried bypassing the tank and see how that works?

How hot does your boiler get? Does it smoke? What are your stack temps like?

We have a few EconoBurn dealers here. I think one of them ought to be able to walk you through a step-by-step diagnosis to try to figure out the problem. I don't see how an EconoBurn can be that much different than the EKO, and that's a pretty straightforward process--I mean the heat from all that wood has to be going somewhere. If it's not going up the stack, then it's somehow getting lost in transmission.


----------



## leaddog (Mar 22, 2008)

gopherwood said:
			
		

> I agree that storage probably is the best thing.  I did get storage when I got mine.(512 gal.)  Probably not quite enough but should do pretty good.  My problem is that my boiler won't get my storage up to temp.  Like today, I have only been feeding the tank and my HX to my furnace which only runs for 10-15min/hour.  As of right now, the tank is only at 150.  The boiler has been at full burn since 5:30.  If I could heat my tank to 175 in 4-6 hours and then use that I would be a lot happier, that's just not the case for me.  Going thru ALOT of wood



I'm wondering if you have your boiler running hot enough. You need to have it running atleast 160 and 170 would be better to get good gasification. You will burn alot of wood if it isn't gasifing good. You need a control of some sort to keep the boiler up and then feed your storage or house from that. 
leaddog


----------



## ebbci05 (Mar 22, 2008)

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> It sounds to me like maybe you've got a heat exchanger problem, Eric. Have you tried bypassing the tank and see how that works?
> 
> How hot does your boiler get? Does it smoke? What are your stack temps like?
> 
> We have a few EconoBurn dealers here. I think one of them ought to be able to walk you through a step-by-step diagnosis to try to figure out the problem. I don't see how an EconoBurn can be that much different than the EKO, and that's a pretty straightforward process--I mean the heat from all that wood has to be going somewhere. If it's not going up the stack, then it's somehow getting lost in transmission.



My boiler only got up to 170 degrees and only for a little while.  That was while i was tending it today.  I left for a few hours and when I got home it was down to 160.  Then after supper I put some wood in and checked it at 10:00.  It was down to one piece of wood and 149.  149 is what my tank is at.  I am just frustrated, puzzled, confused and upset.  It smokes some on start up but once it gasifies not much to speak of.  I had a fire in it today that was huge.  I had a lot of small kiln dried wood and got it burning real good with the draft open.  Then I shut it to gasify and it was just raging when I checked the gasification door.  Flames consumed the whole box.  It smoked for a while even gasifying until it burned the excess gases.  But, even then it didn't come close to overheating.  Checked my wood tonight with a moisture tester my dad bought.  It ranged from 25-38%.  I know this might not be the best % but don't think that it is the culperate.  My real delima is that I have the option to get a EBW 150 to replace mine.  With all the trouble of mine not heating good and the problems of the other guys that were similar to what I had, I am very sceptical to do that.   If i decide to get it and have the same problem, I won't be able to handle it and I would be stuck with trying to get rid of a used boiler.  We've checked everything except the back of the boiler.  No heat loss from boiler to house.  Snow and frozen ground where the line is.  Maybe the hx is blocked in the back, because my turbulator is broken  I am not going to tear it apart and find out because whatever happens this one is still going back to Econoburn.  I really appreciate all the advise and experienced knowledge from you guys.  Being new to gasifyiers, I read this all the time and have learned a lot from it.  Just wish I had the confidence to get the EBW150, but I don't especially with what skidsteer and lubeguy are going through.  So far, only one happy customer.  Wish I could hear more good things


----------



## Donl (Mar 22, 2008)

Gopherwood, I am curious as to the inside diameter and length of your underground piping. Also what size pump are you using.  I agree with Eric's statement on the similarity between the EWB and EKO. I would think you should see similar performance to the EKO.  Good luck in finding a solution to this. 

Don


----------



## hotwaterman (Mar 22, 2008)

Rich,  I have a couple of quick questions that might help with a solution. Forgive me if you have posted these answers already. I have a suspicion that your unit
heats the house well, and then doesn't idle down low enough to slow the burn consumption rate. 
First question... Can you get the storage system heated and the house warm at the same time while you are at full burn ? 
Second question... Can you get (not keep) the house warm while it is cold outside ? 
Third Question...is the unit in the house or in an outbuilding ? 
Fourth question... Tell me about your chimney. Are you high on a hill ?
Fifth Question... Tell me about you home heating system. Hot Water or Forced Air ?
Sixth Question.... What is the return temp (delta) to the E-Burn after things are warmed up ?

 Let me qualify my position, I am looking at the E-Burn as a dealer. I have installed dozens of OWB's and other Wood/Coal Boilers, but only a couple Gasser's.
I am dropping the line of Gassers I currently handle. I am interesting in using what I have learned to help others, in turn reinforcing what we have learned and learning more ! I believe that you should get an 8-10 hour burn out of a well designed and sized  wood heating system, or why bother ! Life is too short. Wise Men Still Seek Him !


----------



## webbie (Mar 22, 2008)

Although this is probably obvious, length of burn SHOULD be short when charging large storage tanks. That is the whole idea of storage! Burn the boiler at full boat and therefore clean.......

So burn time only comes into play when heating without storage. 

Some math.....

4 cubic foot firebox using good hard wood......
Total output from wood when all adjustments are made
400,000 BTU

or, 4-5 hours of burn time on a full load and 100K BTU input to the water.

As nofossil has pointed  out MANY times, total system efficiency is MUCH lower than advertised for ALL wood boilers. Gasification are still 50 to 100% better than others, but all the nuances of the system have a BIG effect on actual delivery of heat to the house.

As I said, just stating some of the obvious.....
the calcs are from our burn time calculator at:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/burn_time_calculator


----------



## hotwaterman (Mar 22, 2008)

Correction : What I should have said is " You should be able to get 8-10 hours worth of heat out of a burn cycle with the appropriately sized and designed system."  I currently heat 2000 sq. ft. with a Wood Burning Avalon F-Place insert. Our home is in a cold climate
and is a 1970's poorly insulated chalet with alot of glass. I can load the stove @ 10PM with the house @ 68 F, and I wake up @ 5:30 AM and the house is 62 F with a good bed of coals. I currently burn around 15 face cords a winter.

 Firstly, We are going to tighten up the house, then install a Gasser in a separate structure, heat 500 gallons of storage, put in some radiation, forced air and an indirect DHW tank preceding an electric DHW. Additionally, I will be installing a bank of Flat Plate Solar Collectors for Summer Time DHW.  I want to start a fire, load the unit and walk away knowing I can get 8-14 hours of heat. I dont mind a 4 degree drop in the house while I am gone, as long as it doesn't take 4 hours to get that temp back.

 Wise Men Still Seek Him !


----------



## skidsteer (Mar 23, 2008)

HAPPY EASTER EVERY ONE
I feel like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place with my boiler . I drive my self and everyone around me crazy trying to make my mind up weather I'm going to keep my boiler or sell it. I don't have the troubles that some of you other people are having with not being able to make enough heat . I'm having doubts In the longevity of the boiler a lot of my problems with the fluctuating temps that I was having have been answered by all of the knowledge of the people of this site not the company I bought the boiler from. In fact most cases I'm making too much heat at all the wrong times (KNOW WATER STORAGE) I have serious doubts in the factory because I feel I have got-en a runaround with them on information about the use of my boiler in the early stages . Right now as soon as it warms up I'm moving a boiler to my out building and adding water storage . So that's ware the confusion comes in . Option #1 sell the econoburn at a loss and buy a new gasser with a better reputation or roll the dice and stick with what I have, either way I have to reinstall a boiler


----------



## SnowTraveler (Mar 24, 2008)

hotwaterman, from rich:
"First question… Can you get the storage system heated and the house warm at the same time while you are at full burn ? 
Second question… Can you get (not keep) the house warm while it is cold outside ? 
Third Question...is the unit in the house or in an outbuilding ? 
Fourth question… Tell me about your chimney. Are you high on a hill ? 
Fifth Question… Tell me about you home heating system. Hot Water or Forced Air ? 
Sixth Question.... What is the return temp (delta) to the E-Burn after things are warmed up ? "

1) no, I need to "charge" system first at full throttle burn, otherwise it can't keep up, I keep my zone setpoints below SP during warm up
2) house will stay warm when very cold outside, but frequent loading is necessary, 4 hrs to coals
3) boiler is in finished basement, in a utility section
4) not on hill, but I do have an exhausto chimney fan calibrated to my system, as I had smoke issues (if you want more detail, I can pm you on that.) I do not believe it is a factor in my "problems"
5) combination of baseboard heaters and a plenum exhanger on my existing oil fired hot air furnace
6) when system is up and stable, delta T is as low as 10 deg F

I do have capability of monitoring all temps and pressures, as I have Honeywell UDC 3300 controllers in my control package and multiple thermocouples for zone and loop monitoring.  I also have flow and pressure instrumentation on my loops.  It is over the top, but I am an Instrumentation and Controls technician by trade.

I did a lot of tinkering and massaging this past weekend while running and I am very much of the belief that I need a lot more storage.  I plan on putting in a 1000 gallon tank this off season.   I wish I knew this up front, but I truly believe it to be the answer to many of our issues here.


----------



## heaterman (Mar 24, 2008)

Skidsteer and Lubeguy

I've been dealing with gopherwood's Econoburn 100 for a while now and have come to a few conclusions.  Number 1 is that good dry wood makes all the difference in the world.........I said ALL.......the difference in the world.   Gopher has been using red oak that for the most part has been standing, dead timber, recently felled and split. Some other stuff he's had has been dead wood again (gypsy moth) but cut and split within the last 6-9 months. When you look at a piece you would think that it's dry.......it's gotta be dry............it's been dead for 5 years. Right? ...........Wrong.

I tested it with a moisture meter and found that on the outside it runs between 15-25%. Good..........Right? ..........Wrong again 

I split a few pieces of the already split wood and stuck the meter in it again. Now I saw readings from 30% to over 45% moisture content. In a nutshell this means that a good share of the heat produced is being used to evaporate the water out of the wood before it will actually burn. It also means that gasification can't take place due to the lowered temperatures caused by the amount of vapor in the exhaust stream. You use water to PUT OUT fires as I recall. So even though there's a fire in there and the wood is being consumed there is very little heat left over that can actually be transfered into the water. All the BTU's in the wood are in fact being generated, but are wasted or lost in the process of evaporating moisture instead of being available to heat his water. 

How do I know this? Because he got his hands on some good dry wood. It tests at 13-22% in the middle of a freshly split block.                                  WHAT A DIFFERENCE!

His Econoburn is now able to pick up his storage tank along with driving the heating system for the house. This morning it was -2* here at around 6:30AM. Little bit of a North breeze. Pretty much design conditions. He had his 500gl tank up to 160 last night when he fired the boiler before hitting the hay. This morning the boiler and the tank were still at 135* with the fire out. He fired it at about 7:15 and called me about 9 to tell me about the difference in the way it burned the last couple days. I went there at about 9:30 and checked his boiler and tank to see how it was picking up. The boiler was at 164* and the tank had picked up to 148*. This is at 0* outdoor temps and the house was being heated besides. We have NEVER been able to make this happen until he got this last load of wood which is good and dry. All other parameters of the operation and the system are the same. The only difference is the wood I need to say that again............ The ONLY difference is the wood. 

I had suspicions about it before but was never able to confirm what I thought was going on until I got a good moisture meter and stuck it in the wood. The stuff he had LOOKED good but obviously was pretty marginal. 

A secondary item that we found helped out a little bit was to insulate underneath the boiler. They lose a fair amount of heat out the bottom of the secondary burn chamber, which I would guess is a fact of life with any other brand also. The Econoburn has a water jacket underneath the secondary chamber to absorb heat but the bottom is uninsulated as built. 

We also found that how you fire the boiler makes a big difference. The best method when starting from a cold firebox is to build a small fire with some kindling and small pieces then let it burn down to coals. When that's taken place (20 minutes or so) load your normal amount of wood in the box and let it get established before you close the draft diverter. It seems that the firebox needs to be at a pretty good temperature to get a larger fuel load gasifying. Once you get it up there it will again initiate gasification when the draft fan cycles on/off. If you take the time to get the box up to temp before filling the boiler it makes the whole burn function better.

Running a gasifier is different than just heaving a huge load into an OWB. They are all more of a thinking man's boiler regardless of brand and I think you'll find that you'll have the same issues regardless of whose piece of equipment you're running.  Do yourselves a favor and hang in there while you learn the ropes because I have a suspicion that you'll encounter the same issues with another brand, whatever that may be. 

As far as the mechanical problems with the agitator handle and/or leaks go, please work with the factory or the dealer you bought the unit from on them. I have found Econoburn to be well above the industry average when it comes to addressing issues that arise with their product.

Keep us posted.


----------



## Eric Johnson (Mar 24, 2008)

I would second the "ALL the difference" observation based on my experience with the EKO.

I think the Econoburn hx cleaning handle is an example of a design that's technically superior, but if you're not aware that it isn't supposed to be cranked all around, it could lead to problems. Probably the result of a design team used to dealing with trained service techs--not homeowners. The handle on the EKO looks a little awkward, but it doesn't look like a 360-degree crank, which is the whole point of the design, I think.


----------



## heaterman (Mar 25, 2008)

FIY to all concerned:

Econoburn has a real live technical service department that can be reached during normal business hours at 716-792-2095.
Ask for Dan. He has over 30 years of experience in hydronic related businesses including Dunkirk, Weil McClain and White Rogers. A very knowledgeable chap with a wealth of experience in the areas of both hydronic engineering and controls. Homeowners as well as dealers are welcome to call. 

I recently learned that Econoburn has received the Energy Star rating from DOE, the only wood boiler to achieve this. They have also completed and passed EPA ratings for Phase 1 with flying colors. In addition they will have ASME {H} rating on all their boilers in May. I think that they will be the only manufacturer of wood boilers to have this rating as standard on all their products. 

From where I sit, Econoburn looks like a company that is pulling out all the stops to be the best it can be. That's a far cry from what I see in most of the wood burning equipment manufacturers that I have dealt with.


----------



## SnowTraveler (Mar 25, 2008)

from heaterman:

"Running a gasifier is different than just heaving a huge load into an OWB. They are all more of a thinking man’s boiler regardless of brand and I think you’ll find that you’ll have the same issues regardless of whose piece of equipment you’re running.  Do yourselves a favor and hang in there while you learn the ropes because I have a suspicion that you’ll encounter the same issues with another brand, whatever that may be. "

I have dedicated a lot of time the past three days in getting to really know my econoburn by burning different types of wood, experimenting with wood size, split versus whole, etc. etc.   I am getting better at running mine, and while I can not yet say I have a love affair with it, I am getting more comfortable with it.  Heaterman hit it right on the head with the thinking man's statement, as I equate running mine to driving a heavy commercial truck with a split rear axle, timing and execution is key to a good outcome.   A long time friend stopped by to see my installation yesterday and was impressed with the technology, but I stressed to him the importance of understanding the nuances of these machines and especially the importance of storage. The manufacturers would do well in publishing a "how to" guide when selling these boilers.  More to come.


----------



## leaddog (Mar 25, 2008)

heaterman said:
			
		

> FIY to all concerned:
> 
> Econoburn has a real live technical service department that can be reached during normal business hours at 716-792-2095.
> Ask for Dan. He has over 30 years of experience in hydronic related businesses including Dunkirk, Weil McClain and White Rogers. A very knowledgeable chap with a wealth of experience in the areas of both hydronic engineering and controls. Homeowners as well as dealers are welcome to call.
> ...



I'm sure that Econoburn is a good unit and it sounds like they are working hard to make them one of the leading co. but I sure wish they would change there web site in stating that they can burn GREEN wood. Granted they then go on to state that GREEN wood is as there diffinition 20% moisture. They are giving people the wrong impression on gasifiers and are causing alot of there own grief. Burning green wood was one of the big selling points of the OWB's and it is a hard idea to change and stating that they can is hurting everyones cause. Knowing what I know now I would not buy one from them with that kind of statements being made as I would suspect ANY thing they say. I'm sure that is not fair and from what I can see they are a very good unit and they are doing most things right but when they try to mislead it gives a bad impression. I don't want to see them going down the path of the OWB's
leaddog


----------



## SnowTraveler (Mar 25, 2008)

I posted this earlier: "The manufacturers would do well in publishing a “how to” guide when selling these boilers".

I since have explored the Tarm website and they have super instructions and strongly recommend storage up front.  They also have customer testimonials and pictures of field installations.  This is a good feature.  I hope Econoburn adds a similar section to their site soon for potential buyers to explore and digest.


----------



## beefalocows (Mar 26, 2008)

We are unsatisfied owners of an econoline burner and their salesmen. We purchased an econo 150 instead of a 100 in August 2007 to be safe on having enough burn time and heat for our 1100 sq. ft. ranch home. Once we got it installed and hooked up the damper handle broke.  Once taken apart we discovered it was only spot welded.  When notified the salesman he said have someone come weld it and we'd be reimbursed.  Then there was a power outage in our area and the pex pipe blew and we were told that the pressure relief valve must have been faulty to go ahead and replace it and we'd be reimbursed. (still have not been reimbursed for either job). Boiler worked fine after this for a couple of months as long as weather did not drop below 20 degrees then it only lasted 5-6 hours burn time. Plus we NEVER have enough HOT water.  Tired of taking cold showers!!  Then we had an ice storm and lost power again for over 24 hours and we opened the damper as the manual states and guess what?  The pex pipe blew again and steam and water went everywhere.  Luckily someone was home or we would have lost our oil burner and flooded our cellar.  What happens when people aren't home when these things happen such as power failure?? Anyone else have problems with power outage or replacing relief valve? We still have not gotten this boiler rehooked up and running.  After spending $10,000 investment and now having to burn oil for the last 3 weeks  We also called the company to come take this boiler back and have gotten no results.  My next move is contacting the Better Business Bureau.


----------



## heaterman (Mar 26, 2008)

Beefalo

ANY pressurized type wood boiler should be installed with a bypass circuit or dump zone that is set up to deal with that very scenario. Out here in the sticks where we live, power failures are a fact of life and you have to design the system accordingly. 
We always make the piping copper or steel until the water reaches the point where the dump zone exits the main loop. Sometimes it's difficult to do because you obviously have to design it so it will flow with no circulator. As a general practice it's best not to attach pex directly to the boiler. We try to use at least 10-15 feet of metal before we adapt to pex. 250*+ water will do bad things to pex even at pressures below the 30PSI relief valve.

I have no idea where you are located but I would be glad to contact Econoburn on your behalf and help you get your other issues resolved. PM me if you would like.

A couple questions if you would.

Did you work through a dealer on the purchase and installation and if so have you contacted him?

What type of wood burner did you use previous to the Econoburn?

Do you have any idea what the moisture content of your wood is? 

The reason I ask the last question is that Gopherwood (previous posts on this thread) was having heat output issues with his boiler and we found out that the stuff he had was fairly damp even though it looked good and had been dead for 3-5 years. Now, with wood that tests below 25% his 100 is kicking butt and taking names. You would swear it's a different piece of equipment since he got some decent wood in it.


----------



## Mainewood (Mar 26, 2008)

Beefalo, I have found in my experience, that it is very important to have a QUALIFIED heating contractor do the installtion on these types of wood boilers.  I suggest you befriend your heating contractor as he will be your best chance of resolving your issues.  The dealers should be working with local contractors to make sure the installtion is done correctly.  Hang in there beefalo. there are heating professionals and wood boiler users with real life experience, on this blog, who will be able to help you.


----------



## skidsteer (Mar 26, 2008)

OVERHEATING BOILERS . I had some power outages since burning my econoburn boiler and it was not any fun listing to the pipes ping. I have since bought a battery back-up unit they were designed for pellet stoves but it works really nice to power my circulator pump set up just for that special occasion. But I do have to say IF you follow the directions that come with your boiler to have 10% of the boilers out put for a dump zone it is not enough I have closer to twenty percent and my temps during a power out situation still reach uncomfortable high temps but it don't boil. NEXT QUESTION FOR ALL. Since I have been grouped in to one of the latest blogs about burning dry wood if you read back I have not had any problems making heat so I guess we will rule out my quality of wood . I an having some concerns of the operating and the longevity of the boiler. Along with the factory because I felt that I've gotten fed some B.S. about operating it and about some maniacal things that had broke like the turbulator arm the lobes were tack welded and one let go the did send me a new redesign bar thicker material and the lobes were positioned in different llocations moved to the outside of the bar . other bar lobes were in the center I also an not impressed with the fan operation it doesn't shut down during high or low temp so you can not really control the boiler either direction it never idles.
I'm stuck in between a rock in a hard place with this boiler I REALLY want the factory to take it back and start fresh but they wont.
If I'm gonna be stuck with It I'm gonna put Moore money into it with changing the controls to operate Moore like its copy the EKO or even the tarm to shut down the fan in both directions upon low or high temp . I adding water storage this spring to my set-up with will help but it wont help the operation of how the boiler runs. ALSO in past blogs Ihave had asked I'm seeing small strips of sheet-metal coming apart think their coming from my refractory Hmm what other kind of failure an I gonna have! 
Sorry to sound so negitive towards ECONOBURN but as someone stated about their advertisement about burning greenwood no waterstorage etc. etc etc have hard time believing any thing they say


----------



## hotwaterman (Mar 26, 2008)

Rich, "from HotWaterMan"

 You mentioned that you have flow meters in the system. When are burning at that 10 degree delta T, what is the flow rate ?
If you are burning flat out and you need to to keep the house warm, the I am not sure I understand how additional storage is going to help unless, the unit is cycling.

 If the unit is cycling because you are satisfying the heat load during the burn cycle, then I can see storage being a huge help.
On the other hand like I stated before , if the unit is burning flat out just to handle the load then I suspect heat loss, poor combustion or a sizing or flow issue somewhere and storage doesn't solve the problem in my mind . The latter doesn't sound like the case with all of the controls you have.

 We have recently been playing with another brand having the identical problems you are experiencing. What we are finding is that we are coking up the heat exchanger (big time) and once that happens, we get no heat exchange and we have to burn tons of wood.
 The key is delta T. IF we are flowing 10 gpm, getting a 20 degree, we are producing 100K btu. This can be tested and proven in a system. If we are only getting a 10 degree delta, we are only producing 50K btu @ 10 gpm. We had been using wood that as either
standing dead, or on the ground dead. I suspect from reading this forum that there is alot more moisture in this wood then what
I assumed there was. I will let you know soon as I am purchasing a good meter shortly. Thanks to this forum, I am also coming to the belief that wood quality is critical in a gasser as is storage.  We had been burning with expectations of as much heat and long burn times as an OWB, with half the wood. NOT Gonna happen apparently.


----------



## SnowTraveler (Mar 26, 2008)

Storage is the key, I am absolutely convinced.

I have been dedicating all of my free time the past four days to running my system and tinkering.  Wood preparation is a huge factor, as is storage.  More on that later. These units truly require a learning curve, even for experienced wood burners.  I have had wood stoves all my life, this is my first boiler, and I went with a gassifier due to it being built in NY/US.  I didn't know a gassifier from a regular one when I ordered it, I got hooked by Econoburn's website.   As said in previous posts, these units require a learning curve and special treatment.  I refired my cold unit yesterday with my storage tank (300G) at 105 Deg F.   I did not attempt to heat the house until the storage was at 170.  That took 2 hours, which I thought to be excellent.  My primary loop pump, a Taco 011, runs all the time, through the tank, to my plenum heat exhanger and a baseboard zone.  I have 11 gpm flow on this loop.  My second loop which feeds two zones has a taco 007, and I have this temperature interlocked to not run until the boiler return temperature reaches 160 deg F.  That flows at 4 gpm.   When I allowed my furnace blower to run, the house warmed up very quickly via my plenum exhanger, then I turned on my zones for my finished basement living space.  I kept the unit gasifying and I only overshot to 183 Deg F with the setpoint on the boiler at 180 Deg F.    The boiler went to low fire and stayed there until this morning, maintaining 180 Deg F on the system.   With it being mild, in the '30's, I had all sorts of heat to spare.   Delta T went as low as 5 Deg F.  I re-fueled every 4 hours, only filling the firebox half full due to the mild temperatures.  My previous mistakes have involved trying to heat the whole house while coming up to temperature and not building a perfect fire.   I was wasting wood like crazy the past month trying to heat the house before allowing the system to come up to temperature.  I only recently added the storage, and that has been a huge benefit.   I am now absolutely convinced that using these without storage is difficult at best and that I need more.  The experts here have been saying that from the start.  I am hoping we get another cold spell so I can do more testing.  

A perfect fire for my machine involves  properly sized and split wood and making absolutely sure the wood cannot bridge.  If the wood bridges, the fire will literally burn out under the wood.  Seems crazy, but it happens.  

Now to the wood.  With my unit, it runs so much better on split wood than whole logs.   I never tried a whole log rounder than 8" in diameter, but they simply do not burn as well as split logs, period.  I am burning dry ash, elm, maple, and cherry.   I do not see how green wood can be used in these gassifiers.

I am closer to being happy with my system, I am convinced that additional storage will benefit me further.


----------



## beefalocows (Mar 26, 2008)

Sounds like your or someone is home most of the to feed the boiler.


----------



## heaterman (Mar 26, 2008)

Beefalo:

   Is there any way you could post pictures of your installation here? That would maybe help us help you get a handle on what's going on. If the two boilers are in different locations, pics of both would be nice.


----------



## ebbci05 (Mar 27, 2008)

Just went to econoburns web site and read it for a while.  Interesting on how they stress the quality of their boilers more so than the other sites I visited.  Yet spot welding turbulator arms and water leaks out of the bottom of the boiler, PRV,s that don't work.  I think they need to either redo their web page or start building a boiler that meets what they are saying.  Also look at the FAQ,s on their webpage, especially #4.  If this was even remotely true I should have had the best winter ever in heating my house.  Not even close to the truth.  Sounds like a sales gimmick to me or that nobody on their staff has ever tried one of these out.  Just glad to see that there is a 5 year warrenty on manufacurer defects.  So far they have upheld that with me, hope they continue to honor that.  Judging by their website don't know what is fact or fiction.
I really need my boiler to last a long time.  With all the things that went wrong in two months makes a guy wonder what will happen a year or two down the road, or worse 6 years(no more warrenty).  Also I would like to hear from anybody that burned wood with 20% or higher moisture like they say and had any results other than dissappointment.


----------



## BrownianHeatingTech (Apr 8, 2008)

heaterman said:
			
		

> Is there any way you could post pictures of your installation here?



I'd second that for all the "troublesome" installations.

Some of the pictures I've seen of installations that were done by homeowners or inexperienced contractors are just flat-out scary.

That doesn't mean that your particular installation is one, but we need to be able to rule out an improper installation before just blaming the boiler.

And any boiler that was oversized needs to have adequate storage hooked up to it.  Oversizing a wood boiler is a very bad idea, and will make for poor performance.  If anything, a wood boiler should be slightly undersized.

In my experience with wood boilers, performance issues tend to be from...

1. Oversized boiler
2. Wrong wood (too wet, and not split correctly for the boiler type)
3. Piped incorrectly, or controls set at wrong temperature.

Once those three issues are sorted out, at least 90% of wood boiler problems are eliminated.  Even less-than-stellar brands/designs can be made to perform decently, if they are sized correctly, piped correctly, and fed the right wood.  Quality boilers will perform amazingly well if the details are sorted out.

Joe


----------



## ISeeDeadBTUs (Apr 8, 2008)

Lube guy said:
			
		

> . . . I am a bit embarrassed I sold my wife . . .



Dude, don't be embarassed. . .how much'd ya get for her??


----------



## ISeeDeadBTUs (Apr 8, 2008)

So, Joe . . . still think the Econoburn is better than the last brand you were dealing?


----------



## SnowTraveler (Apr 8, 2008)

"Dude, don’t be embarassed. . .how much’d ya get for her?? "


I could get a lot, she is quite a hottie.  I wouldn't sell her, I'd be hard pressed to find one nicer.  In regards to my econoburn, my installation has been inspected by a boiler pro and he was impressed with the entire installation.  I am down for the season but expect much better results next heating season with more storage and more experience. I'll talk to you fine folks at that time.


----------



## BrownianHeatingTech (Apr 8, 2008)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> So, Joe . . . still think the Econoburn is better than the last brand you were dealing?



Absolutely.  There was nothing wrong with the other boilers.  Just the company that was making and selling them.

The Econoburn is a very well-designed boiler and I still haven't found any "poor performance" complaint that wasn't related to an improper install (or oversizing), or improper wood.

Like many companies are contemplating, I think you'll see them reducing or even ending sales to homeowners as a result of that.

The only thing they really lack is a small model (under 100kbtuh), but that ends up being pretty minor once you add a storage tank.  I've pretty much decided that I won't sell wood boilers without thermal storage, except in some very specific situations.  For example, I'm doing a design for a hotel with a large pool.  The rooms are actually heated by electric heat pumps, and the central heat only does the lobby, exercise room, pool room, locker rooms, and restaurant.  Even so, the space heating load is almost a million btuh.  Add the domestic hot water, and maybe heat the pool a bit, and a 500kbtuh wood boiler will never need storage, because it will really only be pre-heating the system water before the three oil boilers get their chance at heating it up the rest of the way.  If they eventually add hot water heat to the rooms, we could put in a second 500k boiler, and they'll still use some oil (space heating supplement) and propane (pool heating supplement) during the coldest weather.

But for standard residential installs, thermal storage (refractory like the Seton-style boilers, or water tanks for others) is the way to go.

Joe


----------



## BrownianHeatingTech (Apr 8, 2008)

Lube guy said:
			
		

> In regards to my econoburn, my installation has been inspected by a boiler pro and he was impressed with the entire installation.  I am down for the season but expect much better results next heating season with more storage and more experience. I'll talk to you fine folks at that time.



Yeah, sounds like your system got sorted out on the wood side, and storage will help even out the operation of the boiler.

Joe


----------



## gmlxyz (Mar 28, 2009)

I have been looking for an indoor boiler on the larger side, have to heat 6000 s.f. in 2 buildings and wanted to do GARN originally because I only hear good things about them but my space is limitied so now am considering EKO or Econoburn, have not heard enough good about Greenwood to consider them.  From what I am reading here though, seems like a lot of negative about ECONOBURN, short burn times, which is certainly not good.  ECONOBURN is definitely an expensive unit when you get to the larger sizes also.  QUESTION -besides those mentioned does anyone know of any other good options?

A DIFFERENT IDEA - Central Boiler's newer 2300 unit is currently to my knowledge the only PHASE 2 boiler available of any kind, it is as such also the cleanest burning boiler of all INDOOR and OUTDOOR boilers.  Cleaner burning means higher efficiency and I am all for cleaner air.

I am located in CT, which has a regulation which requires any OWB to be minimum 200' from any neighbors house which I cannot comply with, I do not live in the sticks.

QUESTION - I have an existing garage with a legal lined masonry chimney, could I install the Central Boiler unit in the garage instead of outside?

thanks


----------



## heaterman (Mar 28, 2009)

gml said:
			
		

> I have been looking for an indoor boiler on the larger side, have to heat 6000 s.f. in 2 buildings and wanted to do GARN originally because I only hear good things about them but my space is limitied so now am considering EKO or Econoburn, have not heard enough good about Greenwood to consider them.  From what I am reading here though, seems like a lot of negative about ECONOBURN, short burn times, which is certainly not good.  ECONOBURN is definitely an expensive unit when you get to the larger sizes also.  QUESTION -besides those mentioned does anyone know of any other good options?
> 
> A DIFFERENT IDEA - Central Boiler's newer 2300 unit is currently to my knowledge the only PHASE 2 boiler available of any kind, it is as such also the cleanest burning boiler of all INDOOR and OUTDOOR boilers.  Cleaner burning means higher efficiency and I am all for cleaner air.
> 
> ...



Number 1. Do a heat loss calculation to find out what size you actually need. Don't base your purchase on someone's "rule of thumb" sizing method.

Number 2. Both the EKO and the Econoburn are fine units. Personally I wouldn't recommend running either one without thermal storage incorporated into your system design. I can't describe here how much the addition of storage smooths out the burn cycle for any down draft gasifier.
In Europe, where this and nearly all other good heating technology originated, it is nearly mandatory to add storage to a bio-mass burning system.

Number 3. I have found that "burn times" are highly variable from one installation to the next on ALL brands and types of boilers. Heating loads vary greatly from building to building which can cause one user to proclaim the benefits of "his" unit while another user with the identical model may curse the day he bought it. One person may have wood with 20% moisture content and the other may be trying to burn fuel containing 35%, guess which one will go through more wood and have trouble with smoke, creosote, starting fires, etc.....I would say that either brand will do equally well when properly sized to the heating load. (see number 1)

Number 4. It would be illegal to install the CB inside a building as it is UL listed for outdoor use only.  IMHO the design and engineering concepts of the CB E-Classic leave something to be desired at any rate. 

Number 5. I have customers or know folks using EKO, Econoburn, CB, Garn and many other brands of OWB's. I can say that without fail the Garn owners are the happiest with their choice. They are extremely simple, extremely well built and flat out work as advertised both now and years down the road.

just my $.02


----------



## webbie (Mar 28, 2009)

gml said:
			
		

> nit is currently to my knowledge the only PHASE 2 boiler available of any kind, it is as such also the cleanest burning boiler of all INDOOR and OUTDOOR boilers.  Cleaner burning means higher efficiency and I am all for cleaner air.
> 
> I am located in CT, which has a regulation which requires any OWB to be minimum 200' from any neighbors house which I cannot comply with, I do not live in the sticks.
> 
> ...



Well, before anyone else chides you on this......

No, it is not "as such the cleanest burning"........boiler....in any way!
I'm sure others may be able to explain it better than I can, but there are lots of ways to measure these things and the standards we are talking about were designed and implemented ONLY for what EPA describes as:
"outdoor wood heaters or outdoor wood boilers"

Most of the indoor boilers (which I define as pressurized boilers) ......were first tested (and still are) to certain European standards which I would guess are completely different from these voluntary EPA specs. As a for-instance, when we tested the TARM wood gasifyer many years ago, we came up with less than 1 gram per hour....in certain test runs. 

Not splitting hairs here - but when a couple thousands of these new EPA boilers are out in the field and we all have much more experience, it will be much easier to gauge some of these things. 

Anyway, in answer to your questions...

First thing is to carefully check the regulations. Many states and locales have been changing them when to comes to EPA boilers. 

However, if you are not allowed to use the OWB as an OWB, it is highly doubtful that you can use it in a residential attached garage, as ALL use of solid fuel products is prohibited in such structures by NFPA, which is subscribed to by most all states.

The exception MIGHT be if the garage cannot be used for a car, etc....in which case, it may be a call for a local inspector (who may have some latitude in such matters).


----------



## heaterman (Mar 28, 2009)

I'll second Craig's observation on the "cleanest burning" thing. As it stands right now the EPA test bears about as much resemblance to real world use as I do to Jessica Simpson......well, after she gained that weight........maybe.........nah, I won't go there. 

Basically the test burn consists of sawn  4'' X 4" wood that has been kiln dried to 20% MC. This is then weighed exactly to spec and "placed" in the firebox in a cribbed fashion. The unit is then connected to a constant flow system much like the useless AFUE test for gas and oil fired appliances and results from the burn are measured. Note that the burn, as I understand it, is continuous. That is a huge difference from real world applications on any unit but a Garn. They will all cycle unless there is adequate storage involved. Off cycle is when you lose efficiency and start to get dirty. I don't put much stock in those ratings and I'm still waiting for what could be deemed a valid test.  The background noise I'm hearing from industry sources says that CB played an inordinate part in designing the test criteria. Just a rumor but who knows?


----------



## gmlxyz (Mar 28, 2009)

I agree with both responses, doing a heat loss is vital, so is water storage, and also that the testing is not uniform but it is all that we have, that is why there are forums like this so actual users can share knowledge.  If there was an independent side by side, apples to apples test of these things, and it was scientifically valid, then there would only be one choice, whichever is the most efficient, and clean burning, but that information source does not exist.  I made an error about CB though, I was looking at the EPA hydronic heater list and was looking at the MAX 250 numbers, which is a pellet/corn boiler, the cleanest OWB is actually WoodMaster per the EPA, also the cleanest burning woodstove is the Vermont Castings Defiant at .08 grams per hour.  As for indoor boilers, I do not know which is, in fact, the cleanest burning, will try to find out.  AS for GARN, would love to have one but simply do not have the room, and when you factor in that one must build a space for it, which would include at least a 7' thick concrete pad, shed, then insulate the unit, then also pay for the not included heat exchanger, and other plumbing valves, etc., it is a much bigger space, dollar and time invested, too bad, GARN definitely has the most positive actual user feedback.  I got this onformation from a GARN user who loves it, but would never do it if limited for space.  Also, a non-pressurized unit has some disadvantages, more corrosion prone, and will not get to as high a water temperature if needed as easily as a pressurized unit.

Most likely I cannot install an OWB in the garage for various reasons, so I am back to looking at indoor units.  If I needed less btu, I would go with a TARM, that would be easy, but they are not big enough for what I need.

It seems like other than TARM and GARN, there are not a lot of totally happy users of indoor boilers, be they GREENWOOD, ECONOBURN, EKO or anyone else.

Maybe, you guys should put your heads together, come up with a superior design, 3 perhaps, even four phase gasification, self-cleaning, cleanest burning, with a dual-fuel capability which would allow for auto firestarting if nothing else, and start up a company to sell them, and Jessica Simpson can be hired as the pitchgirl.  Later on the next thing will be automatic log feeding.  I'll buy it.

thanks for the replies


----------



## webbie (Mar 28, 2009)

TARM hardly exists any longer in it's old form.

The former importer offers similar units including this dandy:
http://www.woodboilers.com/product-detail.aspx?id=50

User satisfaction is MUCH more dependent on installation and other factors. Folks were much happier when fuel oil was $4 a gallon than they are when it is $2 or less. 

I don't think you can really beat the most modern indoor gasifiers with the new processors......they are reaching the pinnacle of potential efficiency. The rest probably depends more on heat loss, storage, insulation, wood, chimney, owner, etc......

I don't know where you get the idea of "not a lot of happy indoor boiler users"......... 

Oh,  I won't even start with the owner satisfaction on the cleanest burning woodstove......it would take WEEKS to go over that one, but do a forum search on Everburn if you want to do some heavy reading. Also, that is .8 grams, not .08

I would hazard a guess that if you really want the most efficient wood boiler made that you would choose the Lamba Control models. That does not mean the installed systems beats all others, because there are too many variables. But all things considered, a unit with the ability to monitor it's own emissions and continually tune itself (like your car computer) will result in a cleaner burn....

So there.....we did your work for you. Of course, the Prius may be the most efficient car on the market too, but it may not be able to tow your load. So the final decision is usually based on much more than the exact unit efficiency.


----------



## gmlxyz (Mar 28, 2009)

"Not a lot of happy indoor boiler users", other than GARN and TARM, by that I mean there are a lot of complaints that I have read here about other brands, never have heard anything negative about either GARN or TARM, but have heard plenty of negative about ECONOBURN, GW, EKO, and others less known, be it the service, the product or both.  It is totally different than if you are buying an oil or gas furnace obviously becuase the technology and standards simply have not evolved far enough yet.  If they had, you would not hear so many complaints.  If the technology was more advanced, it would not depend on the price of oil as you say.  Insulation and heat loss factors, the envelope as it is called, are relevant no matter what the source of heat.  The technology on wood and biomass is evolving and has a long way to go, and solid fuels are subject to more negative variables than oil or natural gas, and unfortunately the standards for testing and certifying the products are just not there and/or are also evolving, the keyword in going forward for solid fuels is sustainablility, which takes into account ALL factors, efficiency, heat output, environmental impact, convenience of use, manufacturing quality, in essence, intelligent engineering.  Like I said if I could I would go with a GARN for all those reasons, save for one, they are too big.  When you speak of Lambda, which brands use that?  Are you talking about the Austrian manufacturers?  KWB is supposed to be the best, but they are not distributed here.  You can operate one using your cellphone and they burn cleaner than the cleanest fuel oil furnace.  Which indoor gassifiers with new processors are you speaking of specifically?  What brands?


----------



## webbie (Mar 28, 2009)

A number of Euro brands use the Lambda, but it's hard to keep up with which are being imported. Eric may chime in because he has been (and is going again soon) to Europe for one of the trade shows......But,

It appears that the Frohling at Bioheat uses it. And being as that importer has a 30 year history here - that may give an edge over some other importers that may have started up this year. 

Here is some info on the processor:
http://www.atech.si/index.php?page=10&lang=2

Lots of boilers without this fancy new control work very well.....especially with good wood and tied to storage. In the end, I think there are a number of factors which will go into your final decision. 

As to the continuous evolution, keep in mind that we sold the TARM system in about 1987 - and it was highly tuned. I think it can be accurately stated that the Lambda is really the only major potential evolution since that time. Even the TARM was largely based on the HILL and KETT (Jetstream, etc.) boilers from the late 1970's. 

We had very little innovation in biomass boiler in the USA from the mid-1980's until after 2000. In fact, it could be said we went backwards with tens of thousands of OWBs being installed.


----------



## gmlxyz (Mar 28, 2009)

I agree, OWBs were backwards, that is non-gassifiers, thanks to the EPA's Phase 2 program, that has changed and will continue to improve, the more the standards for solid fuels climb, the more improved the technology becomes, and the more people will use the resulting products, and rely less on fossil fuels, thus for me anytime the EPA or a State DEP raises the bar I feel it is a good thing ultimately for everyone.  The more the numbers of users increase, the more the innovation will increase, and also the higher the standards will become.  Europeans are ahead of the curve as I am sure you know because oil is double or more there than in the US, they have refined the tech much more, we have to do the same here, everyone wants to be more energy independent and save money too, but we have to do it without paying another cost in breathing less clean air, which equates to a lower quality of life for all, that is the challenge, and I don't see why that cannot be achieved.  I have heard that Frohling is good stuff but again their units are too small for my situation.  Check out the Austrian manufacturer KWB and their story, they it seems already have achieved what the industry standard needs to rise to in my mind.  If in this country we had as a nation addressed the energy problem adequetely with conviction some 30 or so years ago as we should have instead of living, relying, and being so on the edge of our seatpants dependent on the roller coaster ups and downs of the price of oil, and all its convoluted geopolitics, and wars, then all of these things would have been worked out long ago and we would have already been energy independent with clean renewables, but that is just too logical, too sensible, too sustainable, too valid a goal for the powers that be to have established, nevermind to have achieved. Like Yogi said, "...this is like deja vu all over gain."  

thanks for your ideas, much appreciated, will take your suggestions


----------



## webbie (Mar 28, 2009)

I guess you could call it "kicking and screaming" - because the OWB makers fought hard for 20+ years against any regulations - and some are still fighting many of those battles. In fact, I had the top dog of Central Boiler fly down to visit me (they had their own twin engine) and try to convince me that their stuff was clean....that was mid-90's....or may have even be earlier than that.

The EPA stuff was finally put into place as a voluntary standard....we really should thank VT and some other states for this. It was done due largely to complaints from the public. And, since it was done during the last admin, it was put into place as 100% voluntary....because the EPA was gutted and they were instructed not to put in ANY new regs (enforceable ones)...... In other words, this differs greatly from the wood stove regs which are not voluntary.

And so life goes on. I agree that cleaner and cleaner products is a great thing, and I wish we (they and we) would have done it a long time ago. I suspect that a vast quantity of the sales of OWB are still the older boilers and will continue to be for a while. 

Another fly in the ointment is that these voluntary EPA numbers cannot take into account the system efficiency - just the efficiency of the burning of the wood. As much as 1/2 of that "clean" energy may be lost in transmission to the house itself by various means (also somewhat true of indoor boilers, but worse for outdoor)......

As a result of all of this and the current low fuel prices, it may be a LONG time (decades) before you are really able to find the most efficient total system by using EPA data.

There is another BIG angle to all of this - and that involved the longevity of ALL the products we are discussing. Any problems with engineering or materials can take 4-10 years to show up in enough quantity to allow for a real smart buying decision. 

I don't want to come across as too negative on this stuff, but since I sat in the hot seat (I imported and sold many a boiler), I would want this to be a consideration for new buyers.

Back to real efficiency - engineer and forum member nofossil gave us an education when he measured the total system efficiency of a "90%" wood boiler as closer to 58%. Those appear to me to be REAL numbers. If, as claimed, the Lambda can increase the efficiency as much as 30% from those numbers, that would yield a system efficiency as high as 75%.....in theory. I always figure low because that is the story of the real world - so let's say 70%. 

KWB seems to sell wood boiler up to 50KW.
Frohling shows boilers which claim up to 60KW

It seems most larger units are wood chip or pellets.

Of course, it bears repeating that if you take some of the money set aside for a total system...and put it into insulation and other conservation methods, you may be able to get away with a smaller boiler. It all depends, also, on your access to wood. A larger boiler obviously eats a lot more!


----------



## Piker (Mar 28, 2009)

I just want to chime in and reitterate that you can make or break just about any boiler with the installation.  Many of the OWB's installed these days wouldn't use near the wood that they do if the people installing them would do a proper job.  I have customer after customer calling me and telling me of their nightmare with their underground pex lines heating clear to china all winter.  They want something more efficient, but I have to tell them that regardless of what boiler they use, they will still burn more wood than necessary if their line is heating the ground.  This is just one example.

The indoor gasifiers are no different with regard to installs.  The biggest problem I have seen is folks installing a boiler that is grossly oversized without any thermal storage.  Because of the gasification process, the heat exchangers can be made more efficient in a gasser... when the boilers are forced to idle for extended periods of time, issues with soot can arise fairly quickly in the heat exchange area.  Some of this can be counter-acted with proper burning technique... ie not filling the firebox completely full on a 50* day to get a 20 hour burn time.  In my experience thus far, running a downdraft gasser without storage is definitely a viable option for most people... I have done it myself this year with zero issues... however, when customers are against storage, I work hard  to convince them to at least install provision to add thermal storage at later date.  My gut tells me that once people get past the first season or two without storage, and the memory of the check they wrote fades away, that they will eventually install some storage.

As far as there not being many satisfied customers of the indoor downdrafts... I disagree totally.  Caution is the rule when reading forums...  they're like watching the news... the bad stuff always seems to get the most press... And lets face it... when the consumer goes to the marketplace to investigate a purchase, the first thing they look for are scams and horror stories.  You are bound to find a few for any mfg.  I spent 15 years in precision manufacturing as a journeyman, and I can tell you that even with the best, most skilled tradesmand, and the highest quality assurance team available, things slip through the cracks from time to time.  When this happens, and it occassionally will, what really counts is the dedication of the dealers and manufacturers to their customers.  

I believe that the biggest reason why most of what you hear about garn is good is because of the integrated storage.  By forcing the only sales of their boilers to be "storage installs", they pretty much do away with a great deal of piping issues, and oversizing issues as well.  I mean, you can still oversize a garn for sure, but you would probably have less problems with an oversized garn than an oversized downdraft gasser (w/o storage), simply because of the storage and it's ability to maintain gasification and reduce idle time.  That having been said, any boiler or system can be abused as well.

cheers


----------



## sdrobertson (Mar 28, 2009)

Piker said:
			
		

> I believe that the biggest reason why most of what you hear about garn is good is because of the integrated storage.  By forcing the only sales of their boilers to be "storage installs", they pretty much do away with a great deal of piping issues, and oversizing issues as well.  I mean, you can still oversize a garn for sure, but you would probably have less problems with an oversized garn than an oversized downdraft gasser (w/o storage), simply because of the storage and it's ability to maintain gasification and reduce idle time.  That having been said, any boiler or system can be abused as well.
> 
> cheers




Excellent point that I had not thought of.  With the storm coming I wanted to get my storage totally charged and did so today.  Now that the temps are 193 top and 180 at the bottom I really have no more place to put the heat.  I hate idling so what I tried was to turn the thermostats in the house to 178 and shut off the storage so I'm only heating the house.  My boiler was almost out of fuel so I figured I would get the house up to 176 or so but the house is at 178 with almost no fire in the boiler but its still producing hot water.  I don't know how people burn w/o storage.  These 60's sure do put out the heat.


----------



## pybyr (Mar 29, 2009)

FWIW, I'm a very happy user of an Econoburn 150- it's been very good so far without storage, and will only get better with storage, which'll hopefully be completed within a few months (been sidetracked on other projects).  As to efficiency, I have no data, all I can say is that I am getting immensely more heat per unit of wood than with my old wood/ air furnace, to the point that I have basically been able to shut off the oil- something that never was possible before.  And much of my wood this winter was iffy on moisture content- so, again, things should only get better in the future when I can and do get my wood out of the woods earlier in the year (as long as we don't get more significant snow, I am going to start laying trees down in a week or two).


----------



## Piker (Mar 29, 2009)

sdrobertson said:
			
		

> Piker said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There's no if's and's or but's about it... storage is definitely the best way to go.  The fact that you can get by without it, however, makes the purchase of a gasser more feasable financially for alot of people, though education by the dealer or manufacturer about proper operation during the shoulder seasons is critical to keep people's gassers running smoothly.  

I am finally getting our storage installed this week... hopefully, if time permits.  I cut the holes for the 1.5" supply and return lines in the 2 500 gallon propane tanks today, and will begin welding and assembling fittings monday evening.  Can't wait.

cheers


----------



## heaterman (Mar 29, 2009)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> A number of Euro brands use the Lambda, but it's hard to keep up with which are being imported. Eric may chime in because he has been (and is going again soon) to Europe for one of the trade shows......But,
> 
> It appears that the Frohling at Bioheat uses it. And being as that importer has a 30 year history here - that may give an edge over some other importers that may have started up this year.
> 
> ...



Lambda control of the burn is definitely THE way to go for the epitome of combustion efficiency. There will be more boilers coming with that technology in the near future. Someone who was just at the ISH show in Germany told me that Viessmann is bringing their whole wood burning line over here in 2011. Both cord wood and pellet models. That'll be interesting as they tightly control their distribution through authorized heating businesses only.


----------



## pybyr (Mar 29, 2009)

heaterman said:
			
		

> Lambda control of the burn is definitely THE way to go for the epitome of combustion efficiency.



I think I recall someone raising questions about the longevity of O2 sensors in the environment presented by wood combustion byproducts.   How do the ultra-spiffy Euro boilers deal with this?  The prospect of spending $300 for an oxygen sensor (assuming that it is similar to what one deals with in the automotive realm) every few years, or if one gets a ratty batch of wood, is distinctly un-appealing compared to a boiler that is theoretically less efficient under ideal conditions, but that is basically relatively simple/ battle-hardened.


----------



## BrownianHeatingTech (Mar 29, 2009)

pybyr said:
			
		

> I think I recall someone raising questions about the longevity of O2 sensors in the environment presented by wood combustion byproducts.   How do the ultra-spiffy Euro boilers deal with this?  The prospect of spending $300 for an oxygen sensor (assuming that it is similar to what one deals with in the automotive realm) every few years, or if one gets a ratty batch of wood, is distinctly un-appealing compared to a boiler that is theoretically less efficient under ideal conditions, but that is basically relatively simple/ battle-hardened.



By burning _very_ cleanly.  Yes, you can change that by overloading the boiler so it idles after it finishes charging the storage, but the boiler tells you whether to do a fire, and how much wood to load, so you would have to do that intentionally...

Joe


----------



## gmlxyz (Mar 29, 2009)

Does anyone have an opinion about EKO vs. ECONOBURN?  From what I know EKO costs less, has a larger firebox, possibly longer warranty(ECONOBURN is only  5 years), essentially they both do the same thing, are effective gassifiers, both well made.  As I stated earlier I would not consider GREENWOOD because of too much negative feedback that I have read.  Does anyone have knowledge/experience with the WOODGUN?  WOODGUN has stainless steel construction and is pricey I have heard but I do not know the actual price, they are difficult to reach which is not a good sign, never got a response from them, I dont know anyone who has one.  As far as GARN goes wish I could go that route they have the best user feedback it seems to me.  But take up a lot of room and require a lot of expense to set up, separate building, etc. just not practical for most people, the water storage comes with it but not the heat exchanger, you have to buy that in addition, just the cost of the unit is a lot, their mid size is $13k plus, and they charge an extra steel surcharge of close to $1000.per unit, their large unit is over $23k., but everyone who has one is happy.  

I will most likely go with ECONOBURN or EKO unless anyone has other suggestions.  thanks much


----------



## Piker (Mar 29, 2009)

gml said:
			
		

> Does anyone have an opinion about EKO vs. ECONOBURN?  From what I know EKO costs less, has a larger firebox, possibly longer warranty(ECONOBURN is only  5 years), essentially they both do the same thing, are effective gassifiers, both well made.  As I stated earlier I would not consider GREENWOOD because of too much negative feedback that I have read.  Does anyone have knowledge/experience with the WOODGUN?  WOODGUN has stainless steel construction and is pricey I have heard but I do not know the actual price, they are difficult to reach which is not a good sign, never got a response from them, I dont know anyone who has one.  As far as GARN goes wish I could go that route they have the best user feedback it seems to me.  But take up a lot of room and require a lot of expense to set up, separate building, etc. just not practical for most people, the water storage comes with it but not the heat exchanger, you have to buy that in addition, just the cost of the unit is a lot, their mid size is $13k plus, and they charge an extra steel surcharge of close to $1000.per unit, their large unit is over $23k., but everyone who has one is happy.
> 
> I will most likely go with ECONOBURN or EKO unless anyone has other suggestions.  thanks much



A few figures for comparison...

Firebox size on the smaller units is comparable between the Econoburn and the Eko.   The Econoburn is actually a little bit larger on the smallest size.

The EKO 60 is comparable in size to the Econoburn EBW200.  Wood box volume on the EKO is 10.9 Cu ft. according to their literature.  Wood box volume on the Econoburn is 8.05.  

The EKO 40 is comparable in size to the Econoburn EBW150.  Wood box volume on the EKO is 6.5 cu. ft. according to their literature. Wood box volume on the Econoburn is 6.2.  

The EKO 25 is comparable in size to the Econoburn EBW100.  Wood box volume on the EKO is 4.14 cu. ft according to their literature.  Wood box volume on the Econoburn is 5.44. 

Firebox and water jacket on an Econoburn is .250" boiler plate.  I believe the Eko uses 4mm (.157") for water jacket  and 6mm (.236") for the firebox.  

All the controls on the Econoburn are non-proprietary items... "off the shelf" controllers, relays, etc.

cheers


----------



## gmlxyz (Mar 29, 2009)

If I go with EKO I would go with the EKO 80, their largest model, in fact, I wish there was a larger one available.  The ECONOBURN EBW500 price if I remember correct is over $20K.

Which one is the better of the two, EKO or ECONOBURN, in your opion?


----------



## Piker (Mar 29, 2009)

gml said:
			
		

> If I go with EKO I would go with the EKO 80, their largest model, in fact, I wish there was a larger one available.  The ECONOBURN EBW500 price if I remember correct is over $20K.
> 
> Which one is the better of the two, EKO or ECONOBURN, in your opion?



As a dealer, my opinion is obviously extremely biased.  My recommendation to you is to view both products and see for yourself which one _you_ think is better.  The equivalent to an Eko 80 is an Econoburn EBW300.  firebox on the Eko is 16.44 cu ft... The econoburn is about 12 cu ft.

I have an EBW500 that is currently being installed in a warehouse type facility.  Once it is installed, I will have pics and such on the website, but this will probably take some time. You must have a fairly large facility, or a bunch of smaller buildings that you are going to heat.  Good luck in your decision making process.  If you have Econoburn specific questions you are more than welcome to ask.

cheers


----------

