# Tesla open sources its technology



## begreen (Jun 12, 2014)

Tesla opened its patents today in a move to spur electric car development. 
http://www.theverge.com/2014/6/12/5804122/tesla-opens-patents-to-all


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## woodgeek (Jun 12, 2014)

It would be interesting to know what those patents are....induction motors?  frunks? I think its good PR.


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## fossil (Jun 12, 2014)

The last sentence in the article could have used a bit closer scrutiny prior to publication.


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## BrotherBart (Jun 12, 2014)

Yeah. Some big and large scrutiny is in order.


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## woodgeek (Jun 12, 2014)

Basically, Elon is blogging that other companies are making so few EVs he has no concerns about competing with them.  

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you

Of course, BOTH the Leaf and Volt are outselling Teslas at this point (slightly), but he says they are insignificant because they are <1% of those car makers' total production.  Hmmm.  While its clear that Tesla has deep funding, and the Fremont plant is mostly empty (and thus ready for scale up), I think Nissan and GM are also prepared to scale production rapidly too.

Tesla has promised a new model that costs half as much as the S (with the same range), and Nissan has promised a Leaf with 2X the range (and maybe 15% more expensive than the current model).  Both in 18-24 mos.  If they can both actually pull it off, then they will be competing.

Of course, the statement today has no legal standing/meaning whatsoever.  He reserves the right to enforce patents against anyone using the technology *not* 'in good faith'.  

Does this mean that I can get the drawings for his stamped body panels and make my own knock off replacement parts for his cars, and he won't charge me a licensing fee?  I think not.


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## begreen (Jun 12, 2014)

My guess is that the primary patents he wants looked at are the battery tech. The Tesla is achieving notably greater range which is essential to reduce range anxiety in an electric car unless it carries its own generator like the Volt. Given that Tesla is getting ready to build huge new battery factories it makes sense that he wants to increase their battery sales with their tech.


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## Mpodesta (Jun 13, 2014)

I would love to see something new happen in the EV world, as it stands, the Cars I can afford dont have the range to make my daily commute, the ones that can, cost and arm an a leg and out of my pocket range (which sucks because im all ready missing 1 arm >.< lol)


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## begreen (Jun 14, 2014)

Businessweek points out that besides the Tesla battery tech which can take a higher charge faster, they also have a patented charging system and charging connector. This could be a way to gain more partners for this tech and accelerate putting in more charging stations that employ it. BMW for one is reported being interested.


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## woodgeek (Jun 16, 2014)

I've read a little bit about EV batteries, and found out that while Nissan and GM are using laminated Li batteries, similar to what is in smart phones, iPads and my Macbook, Tesla is still using strings of cylindrical Li cells in a commercial format used in older laptops, newer power tools, etc.  Of course all companies describe their choice as the best....

The laminated batteries are generally seen as superior...due to their large area they have less self-heating, better passive thermal control and can be packaged efficiently into different shapes and form factor. Apple had some problems with the laminated batteries a decade ago...these appear to have been solved.....

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Watc...abbed-with-a-Screwdriver-Torched-431108.shtml

But the bottom line is that Nissan and their contractors spent >$1B to engineer an EV battery from scratch and more than that to build a robotic clean room factory to assemble them cheaply. _Five years ago_.  Nissan reformulated the electrolyte in the MY 2013 and later Leafs for greater hot weather durability and long-life.  They are selling their second-generation Li battery now, made in a robotic factory in Tennessee, built in 2012.  The factory is sized to be scalable to a production of 16,000 Leafs _per month_.

In comparison Tesla is still using the same cells found in your cordless screwdriver in the model S.  And they reportedly suck up more of these cells at this point than any other customer...and there are, surprise, supply chain problems.  So they are planning to build a factory to make the cells themselves (for the first time) next year.  But its all good, they are 'giving away' all their amazing battery patents. 

The 'battery tech' that Tesla developed appears to be in how to thermally manage, balance and equalize these complex strings of off-the-shelf Li cells.  And to safe the array in case of a cell short.  And to armor the array against road debris.


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## Dune (Jun 23, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> I've read a little bit about EV batteries, and found out that while Nissan and GM are using laminated Li batteries, similar to what is in smart phones, iPads and my Macbook, Tesla is still using strings of cylindrical Li cells in a commercial format used in older laptops, newer power tools, etc.  Of course all companies describe their choice as the best....
> 
> The laminated batteries are generally seen as superior...due to their large area they have less self-heating, better passive thermal control and can be packaged efficiently into different shapes and form factor. Apple had some problems with the laminated batteries a decade ago...these appear to have been solved.....
> 
> ...



Yet the Tesla has 3 times the range of your Leaf, and at least 3 times the performance, and yes, more cost, but you get what you pay for.


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## woodgeek (Jun 24, 2014)

Dune said:


> Yet the Tesla has 3 times the range of your Leaf, and at least 3 times the performance, and yes, more cost, but you get what you pay for.



I would say 2.5x the cost and range and 2x the performance! 

I have no problem with a startup using off the shelf tech....otherwise there would be few startups.  And if pretending they have 'battery tech' sells more product? Ok I guess.


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## sloeffle (Jun 24, 2014)

I was under the impression that they were just open sourcing their battey patents. It looks like they are open sourcing all of their patents:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...6/23/how-to-build-a-tesla-according-to-tesla/

A few Wall Streeter's have also predicted that they will be most valuable car in a few years.


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## woodgeek (Jul 16, 2014)

I just came across this earlier today.  Tesla bonds are *junk status*.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-...de-from-s-p-on-niche-position.html?cmpid=yhoo

Things that make you go hmmmm.

No mistake, I think they make a great product, and have no competition in their niche.  But they are still a 'startup', and have sunk a lot less engineering and development money into their vehicle than at least 2 major car manufacturers.  All the excitement (and company valuation) these days is for future Tesla models that will be much cheaper, and which will rely on mature, but very inexpensive batteries made in a factory that is yet to be built, by a company that has never before made a battery.

The response on the Tesla fora is that the rating is a conspiracy:

http://www.teslamotors.com/en_CA/forum/forums/sp-gives-tesla-unsolicited-junk-bond-rating

I suppose in two years we will know.

Edit:  Tesla has partnered with Panasonic on the new Battery 'Gigafactory'.  Panasonic has extensive experience making battery cells, and can provide the necessary expertise.  

Still, this underscores the fact that Tesla does not have enough 'battery tech' itself to build the cells....while its PR machine has everyone practically convinced they invented the Li-ion battery!


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## woodgeek (Aug 1, 2014)

Looks like the long-awaited Tesla battery 'Gigafactory' contract is inked.

http://insideevs.com/tesla-signs-official-gigafactory-deal-panasonic/

Looks like Tesla will provide the land, factory space and utilities, and *Panasonic* will provide all the equipment and expertise to make the battery cells.  Tesla will integrate the cells into packs elsewhere at the same site.

The rumor is that Panasonic held out for a better deal (less investment in and a larger stake out), delaying things for ~3 months.  Sounds right.  If Tesla doesn't start making battery cells soon, and delivering on their promise to make them much cheaper than anyone ever has before (for the mass market Model 3), then their sky high stocks and market cap (~40% of Ford) would come back to earth.  Common sense suggests they can't do it without Panasonic as a partner, so Tesla's huge market cap is really a bet that Panasonic can develop the tech under Tesla's Giga-roof. 

Tesla has $$ and no battery (cell) tech, Panasonic has lots of battery tech, but not giga-$ to pay for low-cost ev cell development.

May it be a happy marriage.  Maybe Elon had to agree not to 'give away' Panasonic's battery cell IP.


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## Doug MacIVER (Aug 1, 2014)

bonds might be junk, the stock on the other hand! nice move last two days http://finance.yahoo.com/q;_ylt=AsF...3_finance_vert_gs_ctrl1_e&type=2button&s=tsla


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## woodgeek (Aug 1, 2014)

Doug MacIVER said:


> bonds might be junk, the stock on the other hand! nice move last two days http://finance.yahoo.com/q;_ylt=AsF...3_finance_vert_gs_ctrl1_e&type=2button&s=tsla



Indeed.  Looks like a 5% step after the Panasonic deal was finalized.  Tesla like to make all these big announcements at the end of months, BTW.


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## Jutt77 (Aug 1, 2014)

I had the opportunity to ride along with a neighbor of mine (works for Tesla) in a S-85 and was blown away by the performance.  Fantastic, seemingly endless amounts of acceleration, solid handling, large brakes with good stopping power, quality interior/exterior and this is where Tesla has really done the EV right: it actually LOOKS good.  It was quite a strange (in a good way) experience feeling that much acceleration without any engine noise.  

It has definitely changed my opinion about electric cars from very aesthetically uninspiring, poor handling, under-powered golf carts to a legitimate contender with mass appeal.  I'm excited for the model 3 and what other makers will release now that Tesla has proven they can sell an attractive, good performing, EV.


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## begreen (Aug 1, 2014)

Drive a Volt for an affordable comparison. It handles great and is no golf car. Personally I like the Volt's size better. It's easier to park in the city and still nice on the freeway. And it will go where no Tesla will tread.


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## woodgeek (Aug 2, 2014)

I would say that all three big sellers, Leaf, Volt and Tesla give folks what is coming to be known as the 'EV grin' once folks see how nice and fun and sporty electric drive is.  Its clear that all the makers get that that is one of their selling points, and something folks need to see to buy.

I've got an 'ECO' mode button that makes my LEAF drive like a, um, Prius in eco mode.  Can't say that we've ever tried it. 

That said, its also clear that the model S is a rocket with a pedal.....

EDIT:
The Tesla 0-60 time of 5 seconds corresponds to:  88ft/sec / 5sec / 32ft/sec^2 = *0.55* g's!  
Pulling >0.5 g's for 5 seconds sounds more like an amusement park ride than a car.

The LEAF (with less horsepower) can still maintain a similar acceleration 0-30 mph, (and then does 30-60 slower).  The 0-30 time on the LEAF is ~3.0 seconds, which is *0.46* g's, or about 84% of the Model S P85.


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