# Classic vs any gasser



## woodywoodchucker (Jan 14, 2012)

I got questions.I have been running a CB 5036 for 3 years now. Burning green wet wood is an option. I know that when I burn seasoned split wood that the smoke is minimal, wood useage is less.So I guess my question is if I have 10 cord of seasoned wood how much wood will be left at the end of the season.I burn 10 now, some seasoned and most just stuff I pick up around for free.About 80% hard wood.I cant help but to believe that it maybe be on par with any gasser model.I have been told that I may burn at little as 6 cord with a gasser.Of couse in order to run the gasser you got to make sure that the stars are all lined up just so and vacuum the dust of the wood or something like that.Now as it stands with woody if a tree falls down its heat regaurdless of how it falls.


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## Frozen Canuck (Jan 14, 2012)

Sounds like your asking others to predict your heatload & therefore your wood usage, hard at best to even give a reasonable guess as temp as well as many other factors are variables (unknown).

AFA which unit is more eff conventional OWB or many of the gassers on the board, the gassers win that one. Laws of physics & thermodynamics back that up. 

Can't recall any of the members with OWB's posting figures that had their OWB approaching anything near 40%, most gassers get 2x that regularly.

Perhaps you could read a little more on the operation of these gassers here? Plenty of former OWB owners here that now operate gassers can give you both sides of the story.


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## maple1 (Jan 14, 2012)

You can burn the same wood you are burning now with a gasser - you just have to leave more time between when you cut it and when you burn it. If you can't manage things to accomplish that, sounds like you should just keep using the smoke dragon even if you do burn more wood - as it sounds like you have your mind made up anyway.


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## woodywoodchucker (Jan 14, 2012)

I know my wood useage, 10 cord. The house is a 28x44 cape with half of the house valted, 18 ' to the ceiling. Raidant in the basement and first floor, base board upsrairs, about 30 windows built 3 years ago. The house is 72* all the time.
 I dont know about the whole % thing but I burn 10 [actual] cord of junk wood now.Not sure how we figure 6 cord[claimed by a salesman] could be 80% EFF while the boiler Im useing now couldnt posible be in the 40% range. I guess its new math I been hearing about.
  Doesnt seem to be any shortage of stuff to read about on here about the gass-a-fires on here.I tend to notice more problems that props though, with all the storage tanks and pressurized systems and fluids that some need. I just wonder if some of the bashing doesnt come from jeliousy and propgander.


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## muleman51 (Jan 14, 2012)

This is the same question I keep asking myself I still am not quite sure myself which is better. I have had both and am ready for another new boiler. With the old Aqua therm it was just cut and burn, yes it burned more wood, but it was basically just cut and burn. I f I got ahead and had dry wood all the better. With my Adobe, granted probably not the best gassifier design out there, it does burn less wood however I have to try and stay at least a year ahead. The wood has to cut and split to half the size or less than before, the wood has to be piled and dried then then picked up again and stacked in the boiler room to use. With all the extra handling and work I'm not sure a gassifier is worth it if my time and energy are worth anything. Just my two cents worth.


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## stee6043 (Jan 14, 2012)

The same poll on a forum more devoted to traditional OWB's will likely provide an entirely different result than this poll here.  Spend an hour reading here and I suspect you'll get an idea of what most folks on this site believe is "better" and why.  Everyone has their own opinion.  

I can burn green wet wood in my gasser just like you.  I can also pour a gallon of fresh water on top of my fire every time I load the boiler.  I personally choose to do neither, seems like a waste of a perfectly good gallon of water.


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## woodsmaster (Jan 14, 2012)

I've never owned a outdoor smoke dragon, but I've seen enough up close to Know that a gasser is way more efficient.
The outdoor versions I've seen spew smoke and heat waves from the chimney and if you touch the pipe your going to get burnt.
The gassers burn clean and you can touch the chimney pipe for a couple of seconds without getting burnt. There is 
more work in processing wood but less to process or buy.


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## woodywoodchucker (Jan 14, 2012)

muleman51 said:
			
		

> This is the same question I keep asking myself I still am not quite sure myself which is better. I have had both and am ready for another new boiler. With the old Aqua therm it was just cut and burn, yes it burned more wood, but it was basically just cut and burn. I f I got ahead and had dry wood all the better. With my Adobe, granted probably not the best gassifier design out there, it does burn less wood however I have to try and stay at least a year ahead. The wood has to cut and split to half the size or less than before, the wood has to be piled and dried then then picked up again and stacked in the boiler room to use. With all the extra handling and work I'm not sure a gassifier is worth it if my time and energy are worth anything. Just my two cents worth.


And I guess thats the piont Im trying to make. Im fially clossing in on the loose ends on my house and will have time to get a year ahead on my wood collecting.I have had to split some wood this season and it burn so much better.This coming year Ill have it all split if over 6'' and in a wood shed.Then Ill know the difference.


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## ihookem (Jan 14, 2012)

My neighbor has a5036 too. He burns 8 cords a year. I have an EKO 25. I burn 4 cords at best. We have different houses almost the same size. His is a 2 story loft, mine a ranch with 9' ceilings. I can tel ya lots os times I wish I'd gone with a CB 4036. I didn't cause the eco was 2,500 dollars  cheaper after federal rebate. I spent 10 hours splitting wood into little bitty splits. Sick of splitting wood 18" long into 4x4's. when I can put 12" logs 2' long in a CB 4036. Sure I use half the wood but it's very boring splitting all the time. Then if it gets wet it doesn't gassify properly and that really hurts heat output. Not from the extra moisture but the gassification is what gets you the efficiency. All the work splitting, stacking, cutting 18" long goes out the door if it ain't dry enough. You already have the boiler. Your best bet is to just make sure your wood is dry.


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## martyinmi (Jan 14, 2012)

woody,
   You will burn much less wood with an OWB gasser- in my case about 40% less than with my conventional one, which was more efficient than the one you currently use. You could expect about a 45% reduction in wood usage. You won't find very many, if any, supporters of conventional OWB's on this site. You will find many that will support your decision should it be to buy a gasifier, however, they would prefer you buy a European style indoor gasifier as opposed to an outdoor model. Even though you are simply trying to free yourself from petroleum based heating like everyone else on this site, most on this site appear to presuppose that your conventional OWB is inherently evil because it will smoke excessively if not operated correctly. You are more likely than not to read derogatory "Smoke Dragon" remarks almost any time you visit here looking for advise, when in reality you ought to be reading enthusiastic, educated instruction on how create less pollution while at the same time obtaining more BTU's with reduced wood consumption. You will, however, get a huge thumbs up from me should you decide to purchase an OWB gasifier. You will love it, and so will your neighbors.

muleman,
   It sounds like you are a perfect candidate for an OWB gasser. The more modern designs on the market will burn wood at 40% moisture and still not smoke. I was bored one weekend and did that experiment myself. The efficiency, however, suffers a lot. I've not heard of anyone yet that has effectively incorporated one in with a mass storage system, other than for DHW summertime use.


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## 2.beans (Jan 15, 2012)

just because it doesn't smoke doesn't mean its burning efficient. i have burned brush fires that don't smoke. dry wood can go right out the chimney just as well as green wood.


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## muleman51 (Jan 15, 2012)

martyinmi I have a great outdoor boiler room with my 1000 gallon storage in it, So I can use any indoor gasser. Right now I leaning toward an Empyre Elite or a Woodmaster flex fuel just because there are dealers somewhat handy. I got burned pretty bad on the last one buying off the net. I'm not sure if the empyre elite is quite big enough though. I batch burn now all the time with a timer. Too many options not enough time or money. Jim


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## Singed Eyebrows (Jan 15, 2012)

woodywoodchucker said:
			
		

> I know my wood useage, 10 cord. The house is a 28x44 cape with half of the house valted, 18 ' to the ceiling. Raidant in the basement and first floor, base board upsrairs, about 30 windows built 3 years ago. The house is 72* all the time.
> I dont know about the whole % thing but I burn 10 [actual] cord of junk wood now.Not sure how we figure 6 cord[claimed by a salesman] could be 80% EFF while the boiler Im useing now couldnt posible be in the 40% range. I guess its new math I been hearing about.
> Doesnt seem to be any shortage of stuff to read about on here about the gass-a-fires on here.I tend to notice more problems that props though, with all the storage tanks and pressurized systems and fluids that some need. I just wonder if some of the bashing doesnt come from jeliousy and propgander.


Thats true, there isn't a day goes by that I don't wish I had plumes of carcinogenic smoke pouring out of my chimney. //// The easy way out is probably to chuck green wood in a smoke dragon, maybe an occasional deer carcass for good measure.///I think you are just pulling our collective leg here, Randy


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## ihookem (Jan 15, 2012)

Singedeyebrows, you can also throw in a dead calf and some garbage if ya want. Anyway, OP has a nice CB 5036. The unit is huge. I wonder out loud why no one uses storage a CB 5036. Run it wide open with 1,000 gal of storage. No idle time and run it hot. Should bring up efficiency.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Jan 15, 2012)

ihookem said:
			
		

> Singedeyebrows, you can also throw in a dead calf and some garbage if ya want. Anyway, OP has a nice CB 5036. The unit is huge. I wonder out loud why no one uses storage a CB 5036. Run it wide open with 1,000 gal of storage. No idle time and run it hot. Should bring up efficiency.


Can I throw in an old tire too? I wouldn't want you to be overly jealous with your gasser. Ditto on letting her rip with storage, Randy


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## Gasifier (Jan 15, 2012)

woodywoodchucker said:
			
		

> I got questions.I have been running a CB 5036 for 3 years now. Burning green wet wood is an option. I know that when I burn seasoned split wood that the smoke is minimal, wood useage is less.So I guess my question is if I have 10 cord of seasoned wood how much wood will be left at the end of the season.I burn 10 now, some seasoned and most just stuff I pick up around for free.About 80% hard wood.I cant help but to believe that it maybe be on par with any gasser model.I have been told that I may burn at little as 6 cord with a gasser.Of couse in order to run the gasser you got to make sure that the stars are all lined up just so and vacuum the dust of the wood or something like that.Now as it stands with woody if a tree falls down its heat regaurdless of how it falls.




I do not believe the 5036 would be on par with a good gasser and dry wood burning through it. Not bashing your boiler. I am glad you are burning wood rather than oil! Good for you! The manufacturer of my gasser recommends between 20-30% moisture content. I do not burn wood that is 30% moisture content. The manufacturer also recommends storage is not needed. I use storage. I do not have to align the stars to run my gasser. I load it twice a day, three times if it is colder. I do not have to split my wood into small splits. The Wood Gun will burn large ones. Very large ones. But, you have a better chance of good gassification(best efficiency) with smaller splits. And if you are splitting your wood with a hydraulic splitter, it won't take you that much longer to split it a little smaller. And if you are burning even 1/3 more wood, larger splits, in a OWB, it probably equals out as far as time goes. Also depends on what type of wood you are burning. But there are different types of gassers, and many different things you can do with them to make them more efficient, or simpler to run. It all depends on what you want, and what type of wood burner you want to be. Now if you like the boiler you have, and you just get ahead on your wood supply by a full year, two would be better, you will always be burning dry wood through it. And that boiler you have now will work better for you. But I am glad you are burning wood. No matter what you burn your wood through, getting a year or two ahead on your wood supply is half the battle. For lack of a better term. So you are always burning dry wood.


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## mikefrommaine (Jan 15, 2012)

The main reason I went with a gasser? 

So I could install it in my basement.

Currently it's 2* F, -11 windchill. 6" of ice/snow outside.  And I just loaded my boiler in my bare feet. 

House is 72 and I haven't burned oil since the gasser went online.

Due to the shape and topography of my lot and current setback requirements for an OWB I would have had to place an OWB 200' from my house. Wouldn't have worked for me.


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## barkeatr (Jan 15, 2012)

i HAD a 3642 central boiler OWB.  It burned up, along with the building it was in due to a creasote laden chimney fire. it was a double wall chimney failed from to many burn outs.  Luckily my insurance kicked in.  With the insurance money i got a profab 200 gasser, mainly because i wanted to and also because NYS was soon to outlaw the OWB. I cut my own wood for the most part so getting a year ahead has been tricky. SIncei cut my own wood and I dont break any speed records (as i extract wood from my sugar bush like a brain surgeon)---cutting 40% less saves me considerable time, and causes me to say the gasser is worth it.  Also, i like knowing I burning natures resources as efficiently as is currently possible. I find that the gasser is much more even to control, steadier temperatures.  maintainance and learning curve is for sure higher, so its not for everyone, but the time saved is still considerable with less wood consumption.


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## woodywoodchucker (Jan 15, 2012)

barkeatr said:
			
		

> i HAD a 3642 central boiler OWB.  It burned up, along with the building it was in due to a creasote laden chimney fire. it was a double wall chimney failed from to many burn outs.  Luckily my insurance kicked in.  With the insurance money i got a profab 200 gasser, mainly because i wanted to and also because NYS was soon to outlaw the OWB. I cut my own wood for the most part so getting a year ahead has been tricky. SIncei cut my own wood and I dont break any speed records (as i extract wood from my sugar bush like a brain surgeon)---cutting 40% less saves me considerable time, and causes me to say the gasser is worth it.  Also, i like knowing I burning natures resources as efficiently as is currently possible. I find that the gasser is much more even to control, steadier temperatures.  maintainance and learning curve is for sure higher, so its not for everyone, but the time saved is still considerable with less wood consumption.


 I check my stack yearly and never see anything in there.The first year I ran the thing I did see a chimny fire just once and never again. How often do these stack wear out?I wont to build a wood shed around my wood furnace and store my wood inside.


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## barkeatr (Jan 15, 2012)

im NOT SURE of the lifetime of the double wall chimney.  Note i was incorrectly cleaning mine with a SS brush also.  After i built a shed around it i cleaned it every couple of months.  not sure how that much creasote built up in 2 months or if the chimney just failed.  Note that i had at least 4 full on chimney fires in my OWB...i expect that is what did it.  why did I have so much creasote?  im guessint 3-4 years of cutting down pine trees and throwing them in within a few days?  I was a bad man then.    I have a building around my gasser now ( this outdoor is rated for indoor use)  and I have exceeded code in all areas around the chimney..and verified the correct class of chimney..( cant remember exact class by memory but there are several different ratings) and i check it monthly...


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## willworkforwood (Jan 15, 2012)

woodywoodchucker said:
			
		

> I got questions.I have been running a CB 5036 for 3 years now. Burning green wet wood is an option. I know that when I burn seasoned split wood that the smoke is minimal, wood useage is less.So I guess my question is if I have 10 cord of seasoned wood how much wood will be left at the end of the season.I burn 10 now, some seasoned and most just stuff I pick up around for free.About 80% hard wood.I cant help but to believe that it maybe be on par with any gasser model.I have been told that I may burn at little as 6 cord with a gasser.Of couse in order to run the gasser you got to make sure that the stars are all lined up just so and vacuum the dust of the wood or something like that.Now as it stands with woody if a tree falls down its heat regaurdless of how it falls.


The most important thing is what you said at the beginning - you have learned that seasoned wood produces much less smoke and wood usage goes down as well.  Many OWB owners either don't know that, or don't care if they do know.  And personally, it doesn't matter to me if it's an OWB, IWB, woodstove, or fireplace - they're all on my s**t list if smoke is spewing out on a regular basis.  Based on what you said, it sounds like all you need to do is put a bit more time into collecting and seasoning your firewood.  What works for me is to do a little bit (half an hour or so) each day.  Most other folks do less frequent, more concentrated efforts.  Chose whatever whatever works best for you - get and stay a year ahead, and I'll be glad to be your next door neighbor  ;-P.


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## DaBackBurner (Jan 15, 2012)

More efficiency=dryer wood. More efficiency=storage(usually). Try some storage on that puppy and I can only imagine the difference it would make with a wide open burn, possibly less frequent trips in the snow you'll have to make, less smoke it will produce etc. Thermodynamics and combustion efficiency come into mind, so if the question is one of efficiency rather than better (which is hard to quantify) thermodynamics and pyrolysis or the means of extracting energy from biomass and using it environmentally responsibly...win.
-Bob


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## goosegunner (Jan 15, 2012)

DaBackBurner said:
			
		

> More efficiency=dryer wood. More efficiency=storage(usually). Try some storage on that puppy and I can only imagine the difference it would make with a wide open burn, possibly less frequent trips in the snow you'll have to make, less smoke it will produce etc. Thermodynamics and combustion efficiency come into mind, so if the question is one of efficiency rather than better (which is hard to quantify) thermodynamics and pyrolysis or the means of extracting energy from biomass and using it environmentally responsibly...win.
> -Bob



With a typical owb install I am not sure how you would run with any significant amount of storage. With 20 degree high daytime temps my boiler runs 3-4 hours a day.  The problem with OWB would be freezing temps or lines coming up from the ground. If you circulate water it would basically be a radiator heat the great outdoors.

As far as wood use, I weighed a round of cherry. It was 17 inches long and 13" diameter. It weighed 69.46 lbs.  My gasifier  on the same 20 degree high and 10 degree low would need  about 1.5 that weight of wood for 24 hours heating 2850 sq ft.

Gg


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## woodywoodchucker (Jan 15, 2012)

Im certain that the storage of wood is vary important and now that Im raping up on the house building i plan on building a wood shed and housing 6 cord of wood in the building with the furnace. The furnace will season a bit and that will help as well.I have no neighbors with in a 1/4 mile and burn most trees that are down as I have 60 acres to clean up, also I do faul select trees that are deseced or a hinderance.


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## woodsmaster (Jan 15, 2012)

I think the classic wins if you have lots of wood that's hard to split, cut, and process in general. Just throw it in
and forget it. It would work great for someone with a tree service.


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## woodywoodchucker (Jan 15, 2012)

woodsmaster said:
			
		

> I think the classic wins if you have lots of wood that's hard to split, cut, and process in general. Just throw it in
> and forget it. It would work great for someone with a tree service.


Is the biomass 60 an inside or outside blr.?


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## woodsmaster (Jan 15, 2012)

woodywoodchucker said:
			
		

> woodsmaster said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's an inside boiler, but I have it in a shed.


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## 711mhw (Jan 15, 2012)

[/quote]
And I guess thats the piont Im trying to make. Im fially clossing in on the loose ends on my house and will have time to get a year ahead on my wood collecting.I have had to split some wood this season and it burn so much better.This coming year Ill have it all *split if over 6'' *and in a wood shed.Then Ill know the difference.[/quote]

Woody, that's my splitting rules as well with my gasser (Wood Gun). I cut it all at 26" and split in half at about 5-6 inch, quarter them up above that up to about 12". I just now cleaned (weekly) it and it takes 10 min. and I do it when it is in between cycles (hot, powere off) and now I just heard it fire back up. I don't have storage and it prolly functions similar to yours. One of the advantages that I like is that I just did that cleaning in my underware and slip on crocks. (I had just come in from being outside all day with all my layers) and tonight I'll load it in the same outfit! Try out that dry wood thing, it seems to have caught on here!
And if you don't mind burning some "junk" look me up and I'll give you all the Basswood that you want!


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## woodywoodchucker (Jan 16, 2012)

I think were on the same page as far is wood prep goes. I do like going out in my Skivies and boots to fuel my owb. Let you know your alive. My wife get a kick out of it. Being in my 50s you got to get them looking some how. And please, loose the crocks.


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## heaterman (Jan 16, 2012)

ihookem said:
			
		

> Singedeyebrows, you can also throw in a dead calf and some garbage if ya want. Anyway, OP has a nice CB 5036. The unit is huge. I wonder out loud why no one uses storage a CB 5036. Run it wide open with 1,000 gal of storage. No idle time and run it hot. Should bring up efficiency.



While it's true that storage might help out the efficiency a tad for any boiler, there are a lot more things that enter the equation than merely not idling your burner. It's difficult to achieve any decent numbers when the stack temps from the boiler are running 600-800*+ like they do on a typical OWB of any kind.


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## woodywoodchucker (Jan 16, 2012)

I did install a restrictor baffle in the stack that CB recommends for these boilers in high atl. It just makes sence that the 5036 boiler could and should flow less air than the the 6048. That thing holds 400 gals compared to 200. Of course I called CB for some imfo and left many messages and never heard back.
  In different forums its been rumered that CB is behind the seens fueling the fire for alot of the epa regulations. Wanting to force all to go gasser. I have been told that the classic is all done this year.


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## hoogie (Jan 16, 2012)

i know this answer wont be to popular on this site, but i went with and empyer pro200 gasser...my neighbor has a reg. empyer that he runs and we burn the same amount of wood, only thing is my house is 1100sq more than his. I looked heavly at whether to put in an indoor model with storage or to run with an outdoor unit...boy am i glad i went with an outdoor unit. as for splittin ya i might burn 4 to 5 more cord than and indoor model but processing time is bout that same...lol 4 cord of wood split down to toothpick size or my 8 cord in 24" length and as heavy and i can throw in there...processing time is close to the same. plus your not movin the splits 2 or 3 times like some do when there taking it down into there basement. as for install, not sure what a typical install costs with storage and all that but mine was easy one weekend and i was done and up and running. but whether indoor or outdoor model i think everyones in agreence gasser is the way to go...specially with regulations on stack height and them cracking down on tradional owb units....just throwin my 2 cents worth in.....Hoogie...


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## maple1 (Jan 16, 2012)

I agree.

I voted yes, and think there is not much doubt a gasser is better in or out. I have nothing against OWBs, just don't like the old dirty ones. My neighbour has one, it doesn't bug me a lot (we live in the middle of nowhere anyway, and my smoke blows his way sometimes too), but driving by ones in urban setting that are blanketing their neighbourhoods with haze is another story. I don't see much difference between using a gassing OWB, and an Indoor one in a shed/garage - no doubt they each have their appeals, as we have read here.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Jan 16, 2012)

Forget the stars . . . stick with the basics.

Get the best quality wood you can.
Split it small and leave it in the wind/sun as long as you can.
Burn it.

If you normally burn 10 cord a year, go get your ten cord. Let the CB go cold it's an easy winter anyway. Next season you'll have two years worth of wood waiting. Each succesive year get 5 cord of wood.

You decide how to spend the extra time.


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## hoogie (Jan 16, 2012)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> Forget the stars . . . stick with the basics.
> 
> Get the best quality wood you can.
> Split it small and leave it in the wind/sun as long as you can.
> ...




split it small spend 3x longer runnin the splitter and waistin gas at 3.60 a gallon, then stack it and then in cold or rainy weather lug it down stairs sweep up what mess ya made, miz well lug your ashes up the stairs while your down there to make it worth your while sweep again because there was no forthought on taking the ashes up...lol and make dang sure your stars are aligned so ya might have all your tweeking right on the inside model to maker run good. from what i see a lot less time involed in the out side gasser....but there again just my 2 cents worth...i'm not sure BTUs has ever said a good thing about anything thats outdoors burnin wood...course there again if i had to pay for wood or even have to go find it...it might be a different story...i just wake up and its in the yard drop off...lol


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## StihlHead (Jan 16, 2012)

Smoke dragons? 

After all the fuss and screaming about the smoke issue, I was amused/amazed with the amount of smoke that we got after insalling a CB Classic 4036 at my ex's place. Hardly any. It was a complete non-issue. Less smoke than my indoor stove here does, really. Efficiency was not that big an issue for use either, as she has 100+ acres of huge trees there, and we had an unlimited amount of wood. The unit paid for itself in 4 years. The placement allowed for what little smoke there was to drift from the OWB down a ravine and into a non-populated wooded area. The real saver for us was the fact that it burned green wood, wet wood, pithy wood, bug-riddled rotten wood, and nicely seasoned wood. The second year we got hit with a cold winter and we came up short on wood in February, so I started cutting standing snags and driftwood that came down stream that was deposited on the property by floods. That area is in a rain forest, and some summers (like the last one here in the PWN) there was no summer at all and wood did not season well. So having a furnace that burned anything was a saver for us. We had all th hot water and house heat that we needed, and then some. It was the smallest unit that they had at the time, and it was oversized by 2x in design by me. Larger newer house with a lot of glass... and skylights. Hydronic floor radiant heating, and hot water. All the hot water we wanted, all seaseon long. We had a solar water heater in summer months. 

These classic OWB units are no longer allowed to be sold with houses here in Oregon, like pre-EPA wood stoves. They can be used until the houses are sold though. CB has newer EPA Phase II stoves now, and were they available then, we would likely have gotten one. But the fact is that the old smokers were and are not all smokers. We burned mainly seasoned oak, maple, doug fir and madrone. But we also burned a lot of wet, pithy/buggy, green and not so great wood that otherwise would not be burnable in a newer EPA unit. I do not know how someone managed to burn up an OWB like this one. I had that thing shooting flames 10 feet out of the top in an overfire situation when the damper controller failed. It boiled over and that was it. The steam took the heat away and she settled right down again. Another non-issue for us. It burned huge unsplit logs, which I loved. No need for a splitter or cutting puny 16 inch length logs. 

In the end I much preferred heating the house burning in an OWB, even a classic smoke dragon OWB. The wood, smoke, and fire are all outside. Burning inside is a PITA. Smokes and dusts up the house, have to cut wood into small sizes, have to drag all the wood inside the house and the ashes out all the time, yadda yadda. EPA OWBs are too expensive for me to consider here though, so I have to replace my old pre-EPA Earth Stove 'Smoke Dragon' with an EPA model like an Englander 30 or something similar. Even though I live in a very rural non-DEQ air zone, I am subject to urban dominated laws passed in a valley to the west, and states like WA to the north that are forcing changes.


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## martyinmi (Jan 16, 2012)

heaterman said:
			
		

> ihookem said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why would you type a statement like this without putting any thought or research into it first hand? Are you trying to convince people that ALL OWB's are close to 0% efficiency?
An 800* burn chamber with a 800* stack temperature would translate into close to 0%, right? Please enlighten us, Great One!

I have a hard time believing that a fellow Michigander could make such an absurd remark.


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## maple1 (Jan 16, 2012)

So what is a typical OWB stack temp?


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## skfire (Jan 16, 2012)

martyinmi said:
			
		

> heaterman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



With all due respect, Heaterman knows exceedingly more than most here or anywhere else regarding the subject.
The data is out there regarding efficiencies(by ind labs, not bought by the tester), but basic Laws of Thermodynamics and pyrolysis are the factoring element.
Regarding OWB stack temps...there is a HUGE difference in PM Opt250 stack temps and average OWBS, but I can tell you I have seen "fried" flue pipe on OWBs(namely my brother in law's) and that needs some serious stack temps  and the occasional fire.

ON the OP's subject, I think in the end everyone's situation is varying on personal criteria/preferences and individual parameters of install.
Specifically:

a) the Portage and Main Opt250 (IMHO) stands heads and shoulders above all OWBs( stand alone, no storage)gassers. I extensively researched it and was thoroughly impressed and was seriously, very seriously considering it. 

b)The Garn is a beast all in it's own class, but it is not an outdoor unit in the true sense of the word and was sold on it.
In my case, in the end  I could not run Underground lines for a couple of serious reasons and the expense of a Shed was also prohibitive. 
So both these options were factually eliminated, much to my dismay.

c) Indoor Gassers, need some more "diplomacy" in handling, no doubt, but I have thus far found my selection to be VERY EASY to operate with significantly less wood than anticipated and the way I have set up my wood supply(still altering my supply line), is no problem. Cleaning wise...very easy thus far and every 3 weeks or so.

I was never going to throw "bull chunks" of logs in there, even with the P&M, since there it is not recommended as well. 
My splits vary for 18"-20" iin length and from 4"-7" width at bark and MC 10-20%.

My brother in law runs an OWB(not a cheap brand) and burns same year splits(12" width) and goes through 11-13 cords a year, with 3-5 times a day feeds(he heats 2,800sq ft with average glass, HW baseboard & DHW. 
I heat 2,950 sq ft with lots of tall glass(All radiant & DHW) and looks like 5-6 cords for the year(10-1-11 to date 2.75 cords). 
I fire:15f and below twice a day(70% firebox full- 6.5 cb ft) and above 15f once a day or above 25f every 36 hours or so.
Big difference.

His system cost was 13,000, 4 years ago(he has replaced the flue pipe, gaskets and grate once already at an additional cost) and the door is going now.
My system cost me 20,000 this summer(thank God for HELOC). We will see what the future expense will be, but I expect a much longer life based on others' documented experiences form indoor boilers..  

So like I said earlier, it is a personal choice based on individual criteria , so "better than" is not always equivalent across the board. 
What is key though is the efficiency and scientific principles inherent in the unit of choice. Shorts cuts and assumption in that facet of selection are not wise in my estimate. Ie, for me at least, a boiler that sits outside rusting and rotting and returns a life span of 6-8 years on the investment is far outperformed financially by a unit that will last upwards of 10-12 years. Prorating the Oil/LP future increases in original purchase price only exacerbates said point.

To each his own, but in closing and to come full circle, I think Heatermans' statements are consistently in the upper echelon of "factuality".

Best Regards.

Scott


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## heaterman (Jan 17, 2012)

martyinmi said:
			
		

> heaterman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




My Testo doesn't lie and it's not rocket science  I just call 'em as the readout indicates. 

Not picking a fight just stating facts.  

And the facts are these.  I have been in the heating/boiler business for the better part of the last three decades working on (and in) boilers of all sizes, types and fuels so as far as thought and research go, I think I have "paid my dues". The statement I made is not an off the cuff remark but rather, it is based on observation and testing of literally dozens of makes and models of wood boilers, both indoor and outdoor type. I have yet to see ANY outdoor wood burner crack 60% on my combustion analyzer and most are 40% or less. Some have actually tested in the high 20's. 
You have to realize that there are two things that go into an efficient heating unit. Combustion efficiency and then thermal efficiency. Lot's of OWB's do halfway decent on the combustion side once they get rocking but the thermal or heat transfer side is woeful on most. This is the nature of the beast because you cannot idle a fire in a unit which has good heat transfer capability and not expect it to turn into a solid mass of creosote and tar.


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## martyinmi (Jan 17, 2012)

With all the respect that's due to you,Scott,"the upper echelon of factuality"? Really? 600-800* stack temperatures "on a typical OWB of any kind"? I will throw the proverbial ball back in your court. You need to provide information from an accredited independent test lab that details average stack temperatures from any major OWB manufacturer in the "600-800*" degree range for an 8(eight) hour burn. Good luck with that one!
   I'm sure that you will be able to provide accurate statistics from an accredited agency that quantify the average lifespan of the typical OWB that "sits outside rusting and rotting and returns a lifespan of 6-8 years" is actually 6-8 years.

   Scott,
    You, Heaterman, and myself are on the same page where our intentions are concerned. The way we relay our message to others needs not be offensive. We will never convince persons who are considering heating their homes with a renewable resource that our way is better if we belittle their monetarily based decisions. You appear to be an intelligent individual, and I'm sure you can comprehend the logistics involved with my reply's to some posts here.

   We are all in this together-so let's all keep that in mind.


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## DaBackBurner (Jan 17, 2012)

Hmm... I'll expound on the OP's original post by asking "Is there a way I can make a standard OWB perform better". Even though I don't have one nor ever did, I would be interested to see the hows, why's, and if's of what could possibly done to improve upon the system I had.  

1.) Would smaller more frequent loads be an improvement?
2.) Dryer wood seems to make sense, will I save 1.5 times the amount of wood I burn if I do season it? More or less?
3.) Could adding storage improve upon the idling aspect (smouldering) to improve the overall efficiency of the system, or is it not worth it?
4.) How can I make what I have better?

That's just me though, that's how I tick.

I have two neighbors. One has a sauna stove. One has a standard OWB. I wish that I lived closer to the OWB neighbor as he burns responsibly, the other nut with the sauna stove...well lets just say I wish he would come on here and ask some advice.


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## Gasifier (Jan 17, 2012)

Another interesting thread. Classic vs any gasser. The poll #s are an indicator to the answer, at the very least.  With some of the discussion in this thread, I guess another relavent poll would be this. Dry wood vs wet wood? If someone started that poll, it would be interesting to see the numbers on that as well. Would some argue that because it is a little less work, burning wet or less seasoned wood is the way to go. Like I said in my other reply. Not bashing OWBs. I can burn wet wood in my indoor Gasser as well. But I don't. Just like I didn't in my wood stove when I heated with that. Even years when I could not get ahead, if you get your wood split and stacked in the spring you will be much better off burning in any unit. (Depending on type of wood of course.) I have read here that some folks like OWBs because they can put anything in them. With just a little preperation, there is no need to burn wet wood. I am surprised that so many people justify burning wet, or poorly seasoned wood because ....... (You come up with reason and insert here.) They put fires out with water. Don't they? No, wait, maybe I just imagined that.  :lol: Silly old me. Just because you can, does not mean you should. Hey, who's going to get that poll going. ;-)


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## Como (Jan 17, 2012)

The Garn I went to see was burning freshly felled wood, they wondered why they were using much more than they expected.

The only CB I really have knowledge of is a 2300, admittedly that burns pretty much 24/7. There wood comes in trunk lengths and is blocked and fed within a few weeks. it does produce a lot less smoke than the nearby smokies.

From my investigation you can burn wet wood efficiently, but it needs to be chipped. Which is impractical for me.

If you have no neighbours and plenty of wood, well I guess it does not matter. For my situation I do not have that many neighbours, but I do not want to smoke out my building or process 100 cords plus.


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## Frozen Canuck (Jan 17, 2012)

FWIW: Martyinmi. I own an standard OWB (smoke dragon) anytime I care to I can light a piece of wood simply but putting it on a pike pole & holding it over the stack while the unit is running. 

I know it's a real kick in the pants coming face to face with reality AFTER one has believed all the salesman snake oil stuff & plunked down the cash for an OWB. Kinda like someone telling you your new baby is ugly. 

That's why I am here, needed to learn so I don't get burned twice.

FYI flashpoint on spruce dried to 19% is 500*F. What I take from my woodpile is quite likely way more MC than that, probably close to double. So at best my stack temp is north of 500*F probably a long way north.

Bottom line the folks here have been a tremendous help, they have taught me alot about how to burn with a high level of eff in a very short time. Something the OWB sellers don't do for obvious reasons.

Another bottom line, there is no getting around the laws of physics or thermodynamics. No matter how much we may not like it they do apply.


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## Como (Jan 17, 2012)

That reminds me when I talked to the local OWB Guy, now I am no expert by any stretch of the imagination but I like to have a little bit of knowledge to check whether the person I am talking to knows their onions.

I got the glazed Rabbit eyes in the headlights look.


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## todd h (Jan 17, 2012)

I have been heating with wood for 8 yrs now using a "the furnace works" boiler. Efficiency well with a water temp of 190 leaving the unit the exhaust before the chimney is about 120 deg. F. I have noticed a big difference between green and seasoned wood, even if the wood is seasoned and damp I get heat much faster than green wood, but dry one year seasoned seems to be optimal.Once wood has dry rotted it seems to give less heat. I just bought a clean older Harman 160 I will be able to get domestic hot water with out making a contraption. My TFW boiler will heat my shop. T Hinman


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## StihlHead (Jan 17, 2012)

DaBackBurner said:
			
		

> Hmm... I'll expound on the OP's original post by asking "Is there a way I can make a standard OWB perform better". Even though I don't have one nor ever did, I would be interested to see the hows, why's, and if's of what could possibly done to improve upon the system I had.
> 
> 1.) Would smaller more frequent loads be an improvement?
> 2.) Dryer wood seems to make sense, will I save 1.5 times the amount of wood I burn if I do season it? More or less?
> ...



Well, from a degreed engineer who knows what the term thermodynamics means (in industry it refers to 'marketing hot air', but that is a reply to another post here)... and someone that designed an OWB system to replace a VERY spendy all electric hydronic floor heating system (and had few choices as the house was already built)... and actually used that system for 3 years before getting divorced (long sad tale)...  

1) Smaller loads are more efficient, yes. One issue with OWBs is that they cook wood when they are in idle mode. The wood gasses escape during that time, leaving charcoal. You make a lot of charcoal fully loading OWBs. The more wood that is in there, the more wood gasses escape unburned. Smaller loads burn more wood gasses and cook less, but of course they require more attention and a steady supply of fresh wood. I filled the OWB about 1/3 full at a time, 3-4 times a day. The ex would complain if I did not fill it enough at night because she would have to load it in the morning and re-start the fire. I wanted more efficiency, she wanted more convenience.  
2) Drier wood is always better as far as heating efficiency goes, in an OWB, stove or gassifier. Any water takes up a lot of heat energy when the water turns to steam. While some steam energy is transfered to the metal sides and into the water in the boiler, and later into whatever you are heating, most of the steam energy escapes up the flue. Also when you burn wet wood you tend to create more creosote that sticks to the sides of the boiler, and that gets in the way of the heat transfer from the firebox into the metal and water in the boiler. The fraction of wood saved burning dry wood over green would depend on how green it is. If you cut and burn live tree green wood, you are likely going to burn 3x the amount of wood than if it were fully dried. Maybe more, it would depend on the species and age of the tree. That is if you can keep it burning. The one winter we burned a ton of wet and not so dry wood we tried to get as much dry wood as possible... and dry it as much as possible before burning it. Burning green live grand fir was a waste of time. That stuff has a lot of water and not a lot of heat value (it is rather light when dry).
3) Not sure what you mean by adding storage. If you mean a larger firebox, that would just make them more inefficient charcoal makers. Smolder mode is when OWBs lose the most efficiency. When they are burning (damper open) they are the most efficient. If you mean adding water storage then you are making more of a typical gassifier out of them, but you would smolder more between burns. Hard to say, but either design does not sound that great. In my view, the smallest OWB that sufficiently does the job would likely be the most efficient. Meaning the smallest firebox and smallest storage tank that can deal with the demand. In an OWB... classic system. If you want a system that burns hot and fast and stores the heat in a boiler, get a gassifier that will likely be way more efficient. The same with a Russian Fireplace, where you build a small fast burning hot fire and store the heat in bricks. The key to those systems are smaller hot and complete wood burns.
4) All you can do is get the most out of the system that was designed. Burn dry hardwood. Do not fill the OWB if possible. Bury the PEX lines deep and insulate them well. I also kept the water temp at the lowest level recommended by CB. That is debatable though. Do not waste hot water and insulate your house well, calk drafts, and use common sense.

Jerk neighbors? I will trade you for mine. The tree farm next door here burns wet live trees in May.... all May. We are at war now. He comes by the tree farm and I toss cottonwood into my stove.


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## heaterman (Jan 17, 2012)

Stihlhead I love the avatar. I haven't thought of spy vs spy for ages. !!

As for your opening statement alluding to the industry use of "thermodynamics", I could not agree more. I shake my head in amazement when I hear some of the claims made be the "experts" at trade shows and fairs. I tour all the booths and talk to the factory or dealer guys just for the sheer entertainment value. I think the best line I ever heard was when a prospect asked the factory guy about heat loss from the exposed supports under their OWB and he replied that they used non-conductive steel so there was no heat loss.  
Your assessment hits the nail on the head but unfortunately many people want to believe that they are purchasing a minor miracle to place in their back yard.


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## hoogie (Jan 17, 2012)

After all the talk on flue temps...I checked the manual, on my empyer pro200 gasser exhaust temps are right aroud 350 degrees...now that's a gasser mind you so nowhere near the 5-600 dregees previously stated...not sure if they were talkin bout tradional owb temps or not...but it got me courious none the less


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## heaterman (Jan 17, 2012)

350* is within tolerance for a good running gasser. My son's Econoburn will run between 280-350 depending on circumstances. The other kid with the Garn 2000 averages around 250-300 through a burn.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Jan 17, 2012)

hoogie said:
			
		

> split it small spend 3x longer runnin the splitter and waistin gas at 3.60 a gallon, then stack it and then in cold or rainy weather lug it down stairs sweep up what mess ya made, miz well lug your ashes up the stairs while your down there to make it worth your while sweep again because there was no forthought on taking the ashes up...lol and make dang sure your stars are aligned so ya might have all your tweeking right on the inside model to maker run good. from what i see a lot less time involed in the out side gasser....but there again just my 2 cents worth...*i'm not sure BTUs has ever said a good thing about anything thats outdoors burnin wood*...course there again if i had to pay for wood or even have to go find it...it might be a different story...i just wake up and its in the yard drop off...lol



In my 6th season, and I've NEVER spent a dime on splitter gas.

You seem to have missed the point of the OP... can't see where we are comparing the location of the hydronic, but rather the design of the hydronic.

IMHO part of the problem comes from the term 'gassifier'. I prefer to think of it as 'secondary combustion'. My unit for example is marketed as a 'gassifier', but there does not appear to be any introduction of air into the secondary combustion chamber. So I think of mine as some where between a traditional OWB and a modern gassifier.

And if the bolded comment was in reference to me, you just let your lack of accurate info slip  . As stated, I'm in my 6th season of burning *Outdoors.*


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## JrCRXHF (Jan 17, 2012)

I went with a Harman SF260 coal/wood (better for coal then wood) boiler because it was 2 years old and i got it for 1500.00 the other issue i had is i live in the city so no OWB. I have a Triangle tube 250k NG boiler that i am preheating the water for with the wood. I wanted to install a gasifier and storage but i just don't have the room for storage in my boiler room for 500gal let alone 1500gal i would need i looked at putting it in the garage but the insurance company was saying no without building a fire wall and outside air because cars go in the garage by the time i got done doing that i would not have a garage anymore that i could park the kubota in and that was not going to happen. 

So that said i turn off the heat when i leave for work and start a fire when i get home and burn all night. I only fire up the wood boiler below 40F and run it pretty hard the whole time so it does not idle much if it is above 40F out it seem to idle a lot more and start producing charcoal out of the wood with lots of smoke.

The Outside of the exhaust tube with my fluke IR sits around 400F and up by where it goes into the double wall pipe in the clay liner is around 360F i wrapped everything if a 1" blanket to keep all the heat in the tube and also filled the clay liner around the double wall pipe to keep the EGT as high as possible. 


I know i am not going to get as much heat out of my classic boiler as a gasser but cost and space made the call for me. So far all i have been burning is 15% ash most of the splits are 6" across or smaller i have not loaded more then 1/2 full yet.

In terms of smoke i really don't get much. I get some when i load or if the boiler goes into idle mode for a little bit. I run the water temps between 140-170F Most of my neighbors with normal fireplaces produce much more smoke then i do so i don't thinking having a old school boiler is a bad thing for me. 
I would like to burn some coal in it sometime just to see how that goes plus from what the manual says that helps clean the creosote out of the boiler. 

So i voted "gasser" because i think it is a better system but it does not fit for everyone.


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## skfire (Jan 17, 2012)

martyinmi said:
			
		

> With all the respect that's due to you,Scott,"the upper echelon of factuality"? Really? 600-800* stack temperatures "on a typical OWB of any kind"? I will throw the proverbial ball back in your court. You need to provide information from an accredited independent test lab that details average stack temperatures from any major OWB manufacturer in the "600-800*" degree range for an 8(eight) hour burn. Good luck with that one!
> I'm sure that you will be able to provide accurate statistics from an accredited agency that quantify the average lifespan of the typical OWB that "sits outside rusting and rotting and returns a lifespan of 6-8 years" is actually 6-8 years.
> 
> Scott,
> ...




Firstly, I have made no claim on the 600-800 degree temps so I do not need to provide anything. 
I simply told you Heaterman's statements or advice are in the UPPER ECHELON of factuality, as a general statement, and I was implying a bit more respect maybe warranted. 
Obviously that barbed you so now you misdirected back to me. Understandable and I have no beef with it, since like you said we are all this boat together and I respect your position. 

Secondly I am not trying to convince anyone and I do not consider any of my comments(which were clearly stated as opinion)offensive.
If thus taken, apologies are extended, but I do not think people are that thin skinned or really care about what I have to say, but a discussion should be beneficial.

Now the reason why there is no testing is twofold; there is on real money in it, and worse if it was "real" and not paid by manufacturer's it would shock most intelligent or inquiring people out there. Your reply to me, just validates my point further..there is no real testing to rely on, but logical and analytical judgement is a "test" we should all be using in our decisions. 
Again if I am wrong(and I maybe) Heaterman knows a hell of a lot more about the testing issue than most, so I am open to hear some data.

In regards to the life span, I was referring to the average OWB user, whom I see daily in my extremely rural area and I do not need a lab to analyze degrees of rust and rot...my eyes tell me what I need to know. I also see lots of "abandoned yard sculptures" (not old), that show signs of fire damage, rot and warping.
*This in NOT a blanket statement for all OWBs*, just the ones that go in on the cheap, are made cheaply and are burning same day bucked hemlock from the back 40, 24-7 and are NEVER maintained.  Sadly a high percentile is following this model and that was my reference. 
More power to the OWB users that are running their units efficiently and are getting more than 10-15 years from them(what is that percentage, I honestly would like to know). I also know that most claims of 20 year life expectancy on some OWBs are quite the overreach, but I guess it can be done if one dedicated the hours needed in maintenance(instead of spending the hours in splitting toothpicks, as was mentioned).

Now regarding Thermodynamics, or the "power(dynamics from  the root word dynamis(strength)) of heated(thermo-thermic) energy", again
I do need not a lab to tell me that a stack temp of 600-800 during a full blast burn(not the entire burn) produces efficient heat transfer to the to the thermal conductive element of heat exchange in any boiler, nor do I need to diatribe on the average burn cycle and idling of an OWB. The term "idling" is self explanatory for me, regarding efficient heat transfer or efficiency of any kind(IMHO alone), as I clearly stated in my post. Again there is a degree of scale and variances in operation, but I suspect the averages are on the down side of the percentiles.

Here is a link regarding the issue, from Michigan:
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/OWB_fact_sheet_3_reasons_11-10-05_142298_7.pdf

Again....it is my opinion and I maybe wrong, but I value discussions and knowledge so I am open to all corrections and I accept fault when I may have misstated or opined incorrectly.

I think OWBs are fine and great if manufactured, sold, used, maintained in a responsible manner. 

Best Regards

Scott.


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## willworkforwood (Jan 17, 2012)

JrCRXHF said:
			
		

> .... i turn off the heat when i leave for work and start a fire when i get home and burn all night.
> ...... I know i am not going to get as much heat out of my classic boiler as a gasser but cost and space made the call for me. So far all i have been burning is 15% ash most of the splits are 6" across or smaller i have not loaded more then 1/2 full yet. .......


This is probably getting too far away from the OP, but I can't resist asking about what you said about turning off the heat all day - do you mean all day EVERY day? The reason I'm asking is that we frequently shut down our gasser during the day, but only on days when either solar gain will heat the house, or the outside temp is high enough to minimize heat loss.  Although there have been many days when our boiler is down most of the day, if we tried to shut down on a cold cloudy day, it would get cold inside in a hurry (lots of glass is a double-edged sword).  And, because there isn't any surplus emitter capacity in our house, it takes quite a bit of time to bring it back up.  So, if your heat is really off every day; do you have great insulation/little glass, over-sized emitters (to bring it back up quickly), or something else about your place that makes it easy to reheat?  And, just a comment about your 15% ash and burning technique - it doesn't get any better, and I would have no problem being your next door neighboor ;-P


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## Como (Jan 17, 2012)

My system is similar, I also have a Triangle Tube, but I am hoping it will just be back up. It is a 400k unit running Propane so when it is on it works out at $10 an hour!

I think there is a lot to be said for meeting most of your load with wood and using fossil to top up/back up. The exact percentage will vary.

Now the Triangle Tube is vented in plastic, when I see a wood boiler vented this way then I will believe some of the efficiency numbers you see banded around.


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## heaterman (Jan 17, 2012)

Exactly David. Generally speaking anything over 88% means you're in condensing territory with flue temp under 200 degrees. Condensing in a wood boiler is something to be avoided at any cost. Very ugly things happen.


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