# Anyone have a geothermal heat pump system?



## BIGDADDY

What are the positives and negatives? Is it worth the cost and are there any government assistance ? 

Thanks


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## johnny1720

I have a 4 ton Climatemaster unit that is water to air.  I have had it for like 9 months and I love it.  

-Positives, really cheap to heat each month and it does not matter what the outdoor temperature does as long as it was installed and designed correctly.
-Negatives, expensive to install and my lawn just started to look normal about 2 months ago.


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## BIGDADDY

Do you think $18,000 for a 5 ton climate master the tranquility is a good price with 1200 feet of horizontal pipe in my yard?


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## schlot

BIGDADDY said:


> Do you think $18,000 for a 5 ton climate master the tranquility is a good price with 1200 feet of horizontal pipe in my yard?


 
5 ton is a big unit, how many sf are you heating? What kind of soils do you have?


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## sloeffle

BIGDADDY said:


> Do you think $18,000 for a 5 ton climate master the tranquility is a good price with 1200 feet of horizontal pipe in my yard?


I have a 4 ton three stage ( two stages of geo and heat strips ) Waterfurnace that was installed about a year ago. The AC and free hot water heating is great, especially this summer. The heat is nice but it is not hot heat, it is warm heat. It takes awhile to get use to if you have been heating with gas or propane. I have 2400 feet of pipe in the ground connected to a 4 pipe horizontal loop system. I am in central Ohio.

The trenches in the attached pics are approximately 6 - 7 feet deep. The pipe at the "bottom" of the trench on the right comes back on the "top" on the left side of the trench. The "top" of the trench is approximately two feet ( 4 - 5 feet deep ) feet from the bottom of the trench. The geo lines pull or push heat from a approximate 1 foot diameter area.







Scott


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## BIGDADDY

sloeffle said:


> I have a 4 ton three stage ( two stages of geo and heat strips ) Waterfurnace that was installed about a year ago. The AC and free hot water heating is great, especially this summer. The heat is nice but it is not hot heat, it is warm heat. It takes awhile to get use to if you have been heating with gas or propane. I have 2400 feet of pipe in the ground connected to a 4 pipe horizontal loop system. I am in central Ohio.
> 
> The trenches in the attached pics are approximately 6 - 7 feet deep. The pipe at the "bottom" of the trench on the right comes back on the "top" on the left side of the trench. The "top" of the trench is approximately two feet ( 4 - 5 feet deep ) feet from the bottom of the trench. The geo lines pull or push heat from a approximate 1 foot diameter area.
> 
> View attachment 76503
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 76504
> 
> I have  2400 sf . Looking at your pics nice but didn't they put sand or some kind of material under and over the pipes? Looks like they laid it on the ground in the trench and buried it with the ground they removed. I think there should be some material in there to protect the pipe but I guess it's working good.
> My ground is mostly clayish. The quote I got says hey bury it 5 feet deep.
> What did your system cost?
> 
> Scott


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## schlot

sloeffle said:


> I have a 4 ton three stage ( two stages of geo and heat strips ) Waterfurnace that was installed about a year ago. The AC and free hot water heating is great, especially this summer. The heat is nice but it is not hot heat, it is warm heat. It takes awhile to get use to if you have been heating with gas or propane. I have 2400 feet of pipe in the ground connected to a 4 pipe horizontal loop system. I am in central Ohio.
> 
> The trenches in the attached pics are approximately 6 - 7 feet deep. The pipe at the "bottom" of the trench on the right comes back on the "top" on the left side of the trench. The "top" of the trench is approximately two feet ( 4 - 5 feet deep ) feet from the bottom of the trench. The geo lines pull or push heat from a approximate 1 foot diameter area.
> 
> View attachment 76503
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 76504
> 
> 
> 
> Scott


 

Just to be clear, when you say 2400 feet of pipe you mean in 1200 feet of trench correct? 2400 feet includes both supply and return lines correct?

A typical (there really is no typical by the way) length of trench is 200 to 300 feet per ton. This is for excavated installations. Horizontally directional bored lines and vertical installation are more efficient and therefore less trench length is needed per ton.

Horizontally bored systems are very popular, especially with small sites.


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## schlot

Bigdady, where are you located? Typically the top pipe is installed around the frost depth, with other pipes below that. Generally native soils are used for backfilling. The pipe used is pretty tough, so unless there are problems with a lot of rock it should be ok to use the clay.

You may want to ask if the contractor used software to calculate the size of the system. It's very common for contractors to size a system to large. This actually creates more problems than an undersized system.


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## schlot

johnny1720 said:


> I have a 4 ton Climatemaster unit that is water to air. I have had it for like 9 months and I love it.
> 
> -Positives, really cheap to heat each month and it does not matter what the outdoor temperature does as long as it was installed and designed correctly.
> -Negatives, expensive to install and my lawn just started to look normal about 2 months ago.


 
The second point is another reason directionally bored systems are gaining favor. The only disturbance to the yard is for the pits needed for the headers are each end of the lines.

The last project we were involved with, the loops were actually bored below the new building being built.


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## sloeffle

schlot said:


> Just to be clear, when you say 2400 feet of pipe you mean in 1200 feet of trench correct? 2400 feet includes both supply and return lines correct?
> 
> A typical (there really is no typical by the way) length of trench is 200 to 300 feet per ton. This is for excavated installations. Horizontally directional bored lines and vertical installation are more efficient and therefore less trench length is needed per ton.
> 
> Horizontally bored systems are very popular, especially with small sites.


 
I could not agree with you more about peoples opinion on how much pipe you need per ton. I talked to three different installers in my area. All three of them said they would do no less than 600 feet of pipe per ton. All three said that pipe and excavation ( for my situation ) is relatively cheap so their is no use to skimp on the amount that you put in the ground. We have very heavy clay soil so that might have something to do with it. One guy quoted my 24k for a 3 ton system but did not say how much pipe he would put in the ground. I ran away from that guy as fast as I could. I drive by his house every once and awhile. He has some nice toys sitting in his drive.

I have two 300 foot long trenches approximately 5 feet apart. Their are two pipes per trench. So yes, their is 1200' of pipe per trench. By the end of last winter, which was very mild BTW. I would say my loop temperatures were in the 40's as guess. With less pipe in the ground I would say it would of been even less.

I did alot of reading on http://www.geoexchange.org/forum/ before I pulled the trigger on the system and pipe configuration.

Scott


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## sloeffle

schlot said:


> The second point is another reason directionally bored systems are gaining favor. The only disturbance to the yard is for the pits needed for the headers are each end of the lines.
> 
> The last project we were involved with, the loops were actually bored below the new building being built.


 
Could not agree with you more. Please see attached picture for the "carnage" done to my hay field. And that was only after one trench.  The grass still has not grown back due to this years drought and trying to get it planted in the spring.





Scott


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## schlot

sloeffle said:


> Could not agree with you more. Please see attached picture for the "carnage" done to my hay field. And that was only after one trench.  The grass still has not grown back due to this years drought and trying to get it planted in the spring.
> 
> View attachment 76529
> 
> 
> 
> Scott


 
Wow, that looks like some trenches from WW1! LOL.


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## schlot

sloeffle said:


> I could not agree with you more about peoples opinion on how much pipe you need per ton. I talked to three different installers in my area. All three of them said they would do no less than 600 feet of pipe per ton. All three said that pipe and excavation ( for my situation ) is relatively cheap so their is no use to skimp on the amount that you put in the ground. We have very heavy clay soil so that might have something to do with it. One guy quoted my 24k for a 3 ton system but did not say how much pipe he would put in the ground. I ran away from that guy as fast as I could. I drive by his house every once and awhile. He has some nice toys sitting in his drive.
> 
> I have two 300 foot long trenches approximately 5 feet apart. Their are two pipes per trench. So yes, their is 1200' of pipe per trench. By the end of last winter, which was very mild BTW. I would say my loop temperatures were in the 40's as guess. With less pipe in the ground I would say it would of been even less.
> 
> I did alot of reading on http://www.geoexchange.org/forum/ before I pulled the trigger on the system and pipe configuration.
> 
> Scott


 
Local soil conditions are highly variable, so your soils may call out for extra length per ton. Soil tests can be run for measuring geothermal conductivity. This information can be used in designing the field lengths needed. Of course some contractors don't like this information as it potentially reduces profit for them.


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## BIGDADDY

schlot said:


> Bigdady, where are you located? Typically the top pipe is installed around the frost depth, with other pipes below that. Generally native soils are used for backfilling. The pipe used is pretty tough, so unless there are problems with a lot of rock it should be ok to use the clay.
> 
> You may want to ask if the contractor used software to calculate the size of the system. It's very common for contractors to size a system to large. This actually creates more problems than an undersized system.







I am in central Pa. What is the "top pipe"? I think the frost line here is 3 feet but not absolutely sure.


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## schlot

An excavated trench typically will have several "pairs" (supply and return) pipes installed above each other. The top most pipes will be installed just below the frost line, with additional pipes installed at 12" to 18" increments below them. The upper most should be below frost line. 36" sounds about right for PA.


I hope I'm not confusing things, but I've seen too many HVAC systems installed incorrectly and hope to help you ask the right questions of your contractor.


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## peakbagger

In rocky northern NH most of the installs are in deep boreholes, they recomend a depth of 300 feet per ton. Once they drop the loop in the ground, the grout the pipe in with a conductive grout. It doesnt trash the property as badly but drilling hole thru granite isnt cheap. At least the government is paying for 30%.


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## jdp1152

I'm in the final process of deciding between three bids for geo install in MA. A bit of a process for a retro fit and by no means cheap, but I have an aging oil/baseboard set up and and two dead AC units so replacing with geo using Mass Save 25k 7yr interest free loan and the 30% tax credit make the ROI pretty quick when factoring in new ACs, Oil Tank, and burner + labor.

300ft per ton sounds incredibly high. I've read 140-150 and at most 170. The bid I'm leaning toward is 170ft/ton over two wells.

EDIT:  Also to add, I only plan on supplying heat to the cooling load and supplementing with electric and wood heat.


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## sloeffle

Bigdaddy,

I am not meaning to try to confuse you more with my setup and the pics. I also wanted to show you that having your trenches dug leaves alot of mess. You will find their are at least 500  different ways to setup a loop field for geothermal.

I just wanted to show you mine because I know it works. We are cool in the summer and warm in the winter. Our electric bills with the geo are cheaper with an additional 700sq ft than they were with just with a propane furnace and a normal AC unit.

IMHO I would talk to at least three different installers and get their opinions. I have a Waterfurnace because most of the dealers in my area install and service them. Their are four geo furnaces that you can get most people to agree on that are good. They are Florida Heat Pump, Waterfurnace, Climatemaster and Bard. The geo units that Trane, Carrier etc make are just knock offs of the aforementioned units from what I have been told. I am however not sure if Baird is available outside of OH. I think if you choose a reputable dealer of one of these you should be okay.

As schlot eluded to, do NOT let them skimp on the amount of pipe per ton they put in the ground. If you get all types of different opinions then tell them you want a test done on your soil. Their are plenty of stories over at geoexchange were folks have not had enough pipe put in and they constantly running their heat strips. My excavator put a unit in himself. He has half the pipe in the ground that I have for the same unit and has complained to me about how high his electric bill is in the winter due to the heat strips running. If you were in my area I would tell you no less than 3k feet of pipe in the ground for a 5 ton unit.

Scott


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## schlot

jdp1152 said:


> I'm in the final process of deciding between three bids for geo install in MA. A bit of a process for a retro fit and by no means cheap, but I have an aging oil/baseboard set up and and two dead AC units so replacing with geo using Mass Save 25k 7yr interest free loan and the 30% tax credit make the ROI pretty quick when factoring in new ACs, Oil Tank, and burner + labor.
> 
> 300ft per ton sounds incredibly high. I've read 140-150 and at most 170. The bid I'm leaning toward is 170ft/ton over two wells.
> 
> EDIT: Also to add, I only plan on supplying heat to the cooling load and supplementing with electric and wood heat.


 

It's all about the soil types. It's high compared to the soils we commonly see here, but could very well be whats needed for the soils peakbagger encountered.


Again, there is no "typical", more likely an average value people will use. If you are either side of the average length per ton, you could be paying too much, or not getting enough length for your application.


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## woodgeek

jdp1152 said:


> I'm in the final process of deciding between three bids for geo install in MA. A bit of a process for a retro fit and by no means cheap, but I have an aging oil/baseboard set up and and two dead AC units so replacing with geo using Mass Save 25k 7yr interest free loan and the 30% tax credit make the ROI pretty quick when factoring in new ACs, Oil Tank, and burner + labor.
> 
> 300ft per ton sounds incredibly high. I've read 140-150 and at most 170. The bid I'm leaning toward is 170ft/ton over two wells.
> 
> EDIT: Also to add, I only plan on supplying heat to the cooling load and supplementing with electric and wood heat.


 
Why this sizing decision...are you going to do economics on a bigger system (e.g. for January mean temps).  And if you only want such a small load, why not just go with a minisplit??


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## BIGDADDY

Thanks everyone for your advice. Lots of good information to maul over.


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## johnny1720

I have also heard some bad press about people installing geothermal that are not accredited.  If they are accredited they can give the 30% Federal Tax rebate paperwork to you for tax time.  I have 2250 feet of pipe installed at an average depth of 6 feet, one of the run is doubled up so the bottom is 15 feet deep and the top one is about 6 feet.  I think the geothermal was the best investment I have ever made in my home.  Where exactly are you located?  The guy that did my install was from Salamanca, NY and he travels all over doing these for people.  I know he has done a dozen or so down in PA and probably 40 or so in Western NY.  I installed mine in Feb. and we finally got on the lawn with the dozer about June.  The drought did not help the grass grow but the lawn looks better now than before the install.


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## johnny1720

Also check this site out, lots of good information here.  

http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/afv/topicsview/aff/13/Default.aspx


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## begreen

We were quoted $23K for a complete geothermal system including excavation costs and $8.5K for an air heat pump system. Cost, long term reliability, and few vendor options were the cons we weighed against putting in geothermal. For less than half the cost of the geothermal system we put in a very good 2 stage air heat pump. Our peak house electric bill with this system is under $125 during the shoulder season or less than $2/day for the heating costs. A geothermal would save us maybe another 20% during our shoulder seasons. We heat mostly by wood once it gets below 40F. By the numbers the ROI would be so long term that it exceeded the life of the heat pump. With $13.5K saved we applied it toward solar panels instead.


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## Seasoned Oak

Very good insulation and a good heat pump may well be more cost effective than a GEO system.


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## schlot

begreen said:


> We were quoted $23K for a complete geothermal system including excavation costs and $8.5K for an air heat pump system. Cost, long term reliability, and few vendor options were the cons we weighed against putting in geothermal. For less than half the cost of the geothermal system we put in a very good 2 stage air heat pump. Our peak house electric bill with this system is under $125 during the shoulder season or less than $2/day for the heating costs. A geothermal would save us maybe another 20% during our shoulder seasons. We heat mostly by wood once it gets below 40F. By the numbers the ROI would be so long term that it exceeded the life of the heat pump. With $13.5K saved we applied it toward solar panels instead.


 
I'm very surprised at this, but perhaps where you are, the average winter time temps are not so extreme. I had a air heat pump and with the colder nights, the heat strips were used extensively, which is a major cash drain. Air systems are best suited for moderate temps.


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## begreen

You have to run the numbers. In our area a modern, 2 stage, high HSPF air to air heatpump made sense due to a milder climate and long shoulder seasons in the 40's. In other areas geothermal may pencil out a lot better. It's also worthwhile to explore the possibility of installing super-efficient mini-splits HPs when comparing pricing. Some units are amazing performers functioning without the heat strips down to about 0F.


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## schlot

Seasoned Oak said:


> Very good insulation and a good heat pump may well be more cost effective than a GEO system.


 
As said above, the air systems can be very competitive in moderate temps.

A well insulated house is great no matter what heat source.


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## begreen

schlot said:


> A well insulated house is great no matter what heat source.


 
+1!


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## schlot

johnny1720 said:


> I have also heard some bad press about people installing geothermal that are not accredited. If they are accredited they can give the 30% Federal Tax rebate paperwork to you for tax time. I have 2250 feet of pipe installed at an average depth of 6 feet, one of the run is doubled up so the bottom is 15 feet deep and the top one is about 6 feet. I think the geothermal was the best investment I have ever made in my home. Where exactly are you located? The guy that did my install was from Salamanca, NY and he travels all over doing these for people. I know he has done a dozen or so down in PA and probably 40 or so in Western NY. I installed mine in Feb. and we finally got on the lawn with the dozer about June. The drought did not help the grass grow but the lawn looks better now than before the install.


 
Do you know why they decided to put the second pipe 9' below the top pipe?


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## DickRussell

I have a two-ton, two-stage Climatemaster water to air heat pump. The gross square footage of the house is nearly 4,000 sq.ft, in central NH. But this house is superinsulated, so the heat load is very low in the first place. The heat load spreadsheet I built for the house seems to be on the conservative side. Although last winter wasn't particularly severe, with only a few nights getting below zero and something like 17% fewer heating degree days for the heating season, the heat pump never had to go to second stage to keep the house at 70. As best as I can figure, by backing out shoulder season electric bills from the heating season total bills, it appears that the whole season cost me around $500 last year. I may have better numbers over the upcoming season, as I have since installed an hour meter on the heat pump.

The installation is SCW (Standing Column Well), which uses well water as a heat source; the slightly cooled water is returned to the well to regain heat from the rock around the borehole. I knew that the heat load would be small, and the house would have a new well drilled anyway for a water supply, so going geo made sense for us. We really didn't have to drill any deeper than needed to get added water supply for the house, and once they got to that point, at a depth that would support a three-ton system, I told them to stop at the end of that length of drilling pipe. So my ground connection actually will support more heat load than required. In general, for a SCW system, around 80 feet of water column is needed per ton of heat load.

Ground water in the northeast usually is plentiful and of good quality, so that for a new house in this region, which ought to be built to be very tight and well insulated, a "geothermal" (ground source heat pump) system can make a lot of sense in a rural area if a water well is needed anyway. If the drilling is an extra, or if the house isn't particulary energy efficient, then geothermal is a harder sell. In any case, designing a geothermal system must be done carefully. With a conventional system, oversizing doesn't cost much more. With Geothermal, every extra ton of capacity costs quite a bit. One could argue that for an existing house, the money might be better spent on improving the outer shell, to reduce the load, rather than look for a cheaper source of energy to waste.


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## johnny1720

schlot said:


> Do you know why they decided to put the second pipe 9' below the top pipe?



Because the area was not wide enough and they were worried about encroaching on the right of way for the town road.  Had we known the highway superintendent had resigned the night before we could have chanced it.  They had done entire systems like this before with good results.


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## sloeffle

begreen said:


> We were quoted $23K for a complete geothermal system including excavation costs and $8.5K for an air heat pump system. Cost, long term reliability, and few vendor options were the cons we weighed against putting in geothermal. For less than half the cost of the geothermal system we put in a very good 2 stage air heat pump. Our peak house electric bill with this system is under $125 during the shoulder season or less than $2/day for the heating costs. A geothermal would save us maybe another 20% during our shoulder seasons. We heat mostly by wood once it gets below 40F. By the numbers the ROI would be so long term that it exceeded the life of the heat pump. With $13.5K saved we applied it toward solar panels instead.


 
I got around a 9k quote to install a Trane heat pump and propane furnace. The geo ended up costing me a little bit more than the Trane unit after government, electric coop rebates and selling my propane tank. I did pay for my own ( no HVAC contractor markup ) excavation. I also paid for the system in green backs which helped with the price.  A lot of folks are getting their outside AC units stolen so it is nice to also know that I am not going to come home from work and have a missing heat pump unit.

If I remember the correctly the cost difference would be made up in a few years. I added in hot water generation into my figure also. I do have a wood burning furnace also so I usually run that when it is <25F out which helps with electric usage and keeping my loop temps up.

Scott


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## begreen

sloeffle said:


> A lot of folks are getting their outside AC units stolen so it is nice to also know that I am not going to come home from work and have a missing heat pump unit.


 
 I don't like that neighborhood.


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## daveswoodhauler

Interesting post. For those folks that have a geothermal unit installed, can you give us an idea of the following:

Size of House?
Climate?
Average KW useage/year? (Pre/post useage would be helpful)

Would be good to get some real time data from other Hearth members that have these systems installed.

Thanks.


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## woodgeek

Ideally folks would know their seasonal BTU loads, and kWh usage for the geo to compute a COP.   A recent study found that many geos were giving COPs that were way below spec because of installation issues.....like 2.5-3 rather than 4-5.  OF course, many badly installed ASHPs are giving COP~1.5 instead of 2.5-3.


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## johnny1720

daveswoodhauler said:


> Interesting post. For those folks that have a geothermal unit installed, can you give us an idea of the following:
> 
> Size of House?
> Climate?
> Average KW useage/year? (Pre/post useage would be helpful)
> 
> Would be good to get some real time data from other Hearth members that have these systems installed.
> 
> Thanks.


 
Size of house, 2500 Square Foot built in 1856, I have been gutting and insulating room by room. I am over 1/2 done.  I have also installed all new windows and spent considerable money and time caulking and sealing.  
Normally 7300 heating degree days, according to the manual j that was performed i need about 48k btus per day.  I have seen it as cold as -20 in January for days on end.  I have seen it as warm as 90 for days on end in July.  
I have only had the system for 9 months and I can give you totals of KW usage for the last 4 years from January to October.  
2009 January to October KW Usage 10075 $1,353.78
2010 January to October KW usage 10230 $1,365.67
2011 January to October KW usage 8692  $1,217.62
2012 January to October KW usage 
10816   $1,296.91

Remember these figures represent 100% of my homes electric usage.  Now I dont have to purchase pellets or fuel oil ever again.  I installed this unit in February of 2012, I will have better numbers when I run through an entire normal winter.  

For the difference in energy usage each month I could not buy a ton of pellets @ $200.  And a ton of Pellets will heat about 1/2 of my house to 75 degrees and leave the rest of the house at 65 degrees.  This unit now keeps the entire house at 72 degrees.  

I have seen case studies of homes in my area that were purchasing 1500 gallons of fuel oil @ market price of $3.50 = $5250.  They installed geothermal and only seen increases in electric usage of about $1200 per year.  So each year they are saving $4000.  I just checked the cost of fuel oil today and it was $4.06 per gallon.  So it makes that persons savings this year $4890.


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## semipro

One thing I really like about our ground-source heat pump...there's no outside condenser units making noise in the summer or winter. 
Our last house in a neighborhood was situated so that from our rear deck we could hear the outside units running from our house and both our adjoining neighbors.


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## sloeffle

daveswoodhauler said:


> Interesting post. For those folks that have a geothermal unit installed, can you give us an idea of the following:
> 
> Size of House?
> Climate?
> Average KW useage/year? (Pre/post useage would be helpful)
> 
> Would be good to get some real time data from other Hearth members that have these systems installed.
> 
> Thanks.


 

1400 sq ft modular with a crawl space. 2x6 exterior walls with decent insulation and windows
768 sq addition - full basement with R10 insulation, 2x6 exterior walls with spray foam, R50 in the attic, low E argon filled windows

Climate Zone 5A




Our house is all electric. We got the geo unit in September of 2011, so that is why you see the big spike. The electric bill over this past summer was cheaper with 2100 sq ft of space and the geo unit vs 1400 sq ft along with a 10 SEER AC Unit. Unfortunately I cannot get the graph from the electric company to show all of 2011's usage.

Scott


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## begreen

Is the Caddy used to heat the house? If so, how much in the winter?


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## sloeffle

begreen said:


> Is the Caddy used to heat the house? If so, how much in the winter?


Yeah, we used the Caddy last year to heat the house when temps were below 25 - 32F to help keep the loops temps up on the geo. Last year was pretty mild so I only burned about 1.5 cords. I have 25 acres of woods and hate to see it go to all of the dead ash trees go to waste.

The Caddy is also nice for when the power goes out in the winter since it only has a 120v 1/3 HP blower motor. The geo unit uses a 50 amp x 240 volt circuit so you would need a pretty healthy ( 15k watts ) generator to run it. Luckily most of the current is drawn at start up. It only uses about 20 amps while running but it uses around 32 amps on start up.


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## jdp1152

woodgeek said:


> Why this sizing decision...are you going to do economics on a bigger system (e.g. for January mean temps). And if you only want such a small load, why not just go with a minisplit??


 
Apologies for the delayed response.  I came back and typed up a reply, but figure I navigated away before I hit the post reply button. 

A variety of reasons to give here.  My house is older and we are remodeling both interior and exterior.  Where it is now, most certainly will not be where it is next year or the following year.  It's a room by room process of upgrading insulation and decreasing leakage (and modernizing).  The only reason we are moving this year on the geothermal system is the 25k loan from Mass Save is not guaranteed in subsequent years and that isn't a risk I'm willing to take.  7 years and interest free on that sum of money is too good to pass up....plus other efficiency upgrade supplements from mass save per year in following years. 

Using typical winters for my area, the supplement will only really be needed 10-30 days a year without improvements.  We also have a solar array that provides some of that supplement, though the sooner it is out of the yard the better (trees prevent any rooftop array so the previous owner put one right in the front yard...an eyesore to say the least).  This doesn't even take into account I've got about 6 cords of wood from clearing trees away from the house and probably another 3-4 from clearing a place where the drilling rig will put the wells, and probably another 6 from clearing some additional yard (yard is full of huge Ash, Maple, and Oak trees).  I have another 2800 sq feet of basement that will eventually be finished and only heated through wood or pellet supplement when usage requires it (have a huge woodstove down there that ties into the hot water baseboards, but would prefer not use a non EPA stove).  I do a fair amount of financial modeling for work and put together a slew of monte carlo simulations (using @Risk software and an optimizer add in to Excel) to cover my bases on cost of electricity/temperature/and a few other variables and it just doesn't make sense for me to pay considerably more up front when models factoring uncertainty into the mix say otherwise. 

Long winded answer to say that I've put a lot of thought into this, talked it over with 6 contractors by phone, 3 contractors in person (all of which I am soliciting drilling separately to get another 3 opinions) and with all things accounted for, it doesn't make sense.


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## jdp1152

johnny1720 said:


> Size of house, 2500 Square Foot built in 1856, I have been gutting and insulating room by room. I am over 1/2 done. I have also installed all new windows and spent considerable money and time caulking and sealing.
> Normally 7300 heating degree days, according to the manual j that was performed i need about 48k btus per day. I have seen it as cold as -20 in January for days on end. I have seen it as warm as 90 for days on end in July.
> I have only had the system for 9 months and I can give you totals of KW usage for the last 4 years from January to October.
> 2009 January to October KW Usage 10075 $1,353.78
> 2010 January to October KW usage 10230 $1,365.67
> 2011 January to October KW usage 8692 $1,217.62
> 2012 January to October KW usage
> 10816 $1,296.91
> 
> Remember these figures represent 100% of my homes electric usage. Now I dont have to purchase pellets or fuel oil ever again. I installed this unit in February of 2012, I will have better numbers when I run through an entire normal winter.
> 
> For the difference in energy usage each month I could not buy a ton of pellets @ $200. And a ton of Pellets will heat about 1/2 of my house to 75 degrees and leave the rest of the house at 65 degrees. This unit now keeps the entire house at 72 degrees.
> 
> I have seen case studies of homes in my area that were purchasing 1500 gallons of fuel oil @ market price of $3.50 = $5250. They installed geothermal and only seen increases in electric usage of about $1200 per year. So each year they are saving $4000. I just checked the cost of fuel oil today and it was $4.06 per gallon. So it makes that persons savings this year $4890.


 
Where do you live in the Northeast and who did your install?


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## woodgeek

jdp1152 said:


> Apologies for the delayed response. I came back and typed up a reply, but figure I navigated away before I hit the post reply button.
> 
> A variety of reasons to give here. My house is older and we are remodeling both interior and exterior. Where it is now, most certainly will not be where it is next year or the following year. It's a room by room process of upgrading insulation and decreasing leakage (and modernizing). The only reason we are moving this year on the geothermal system is the 25k loan from Mass Save is not guaranteed in subsequent years and that isn't a risk I'm willing to take. 7 years and interest free on that sum of money is too good to pass up....plus other efficiency upgrade supplements from mass save per year in following years.


 
I hear ya. When I switched from oil to an AHSP in 2008, I made the sizing call on the new unit.....going for a 4 ton single speed conventional split (cheap). AS in your case, I was in the process of dropping the heating load. On install, the unit only carried my 2400 sq ft down to a disappointing ~29°F (with help from ~4000 BTU/h standby loss from the old boiler). That figure is currently down to ~21°F (w/ the boiler scrapped), after a few years of DIY insulating and airsealing. Our average january high temps are 32°F, lows are 25°F. In my own experience, sizing to january average lows (or a tad under) is pretty optimal---there is conflicting advice out there that says otherwise.


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## Bad Wolf

Dick, why do you "backout" the shoulder season costs in order to get your heating costs?  Can you translate your cost to KW?
Also what is the current draw and how much would it run on the cold days? i.e. how many kilowatts/day


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## johnny1720

jdp1152 said:


> Where do you live in the Northeast and who did your install?


I live in Allegany, NY in Western New York South of Buffalo, NY.

My installer was Jim Snyder, Domestic Energy Systems in Salamanca, NY 
http://www.domesticenergyresources.com/


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## DickRussell

Greg H said:


> Dick, why do you "backout" the shoulder season costs in order to get your heating costs? Can you translate your cost to KW?
> Also what is the current draw and how much would it run on the cold days? i.e. how many kilowatts/day


 
I don't have separate metering on the heat pump, or the well pump for that matter. Having an hour meter running now, tied to the compressor contactor, will be better, although I'll have to rely on the mfg tables on how much power the unit draws under my conditions, and I'll still be guessing at power draw of the well pump. OK, that's an educated guess, based on that mfg's pump curves and an estimated pump efficiency. Until now, what I actually did was look at the KWH numbers on the electric bill. The NHEC bill gives KWH usage by month over the prior 12 months. Then I multiply by $0.14/KWH, which I got by subtracting the fixed account charges from the bill and dividing by KWH for that bill, to get $ for each additional KWH.

I don't know what the startup or continuous current draw is for either the heat pump or the well pump. The well pump is VFD, so is supposed to be a "soft start." The breaker for the heat pump is 20 amps, but then it's only a two-ton unit. There is a separate 40 amp breaker for the emergency electric strips, 1 and 5 KW.

I don't know how many hours it runs on a cold day, but now with the hour meter installed I could look to see over a day or month's time this coming winter. I do know that the heat pump doesn't run continuously on cold days, at least not the coldest we had last winter. It just runs longer each cycle as the weather gets colder. So far, it has been keeping the house warm running part time, and I haven't seen it go to second stage to do that. I imagine in a more normal winter, when we do get some nights at -10 to -15 F, with following days only in the + single numbers, then maybe it will need second stage to keep up with the heat loss, but that's what it is designed for.


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## sesmith

Here's a link to mine with some pics:

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/new-geothermal-install.75486/

Here's also a chart showing our electrical usage 2010-2012. The geo system went in 10 / 2011. In the previous years we went through around 6 full cords of firewood and around 50 gal of fuel oil. In years that we heated with fuel oil we used to use 700-800 gallons. Last winter we used the geo system only. FWIW, the last 2 months of this year, where our electrical use climbed a little, was due to the fact that our son was living with us...nothing to do with ac load or geo system running. I figured the geo system upped our electric bill around $300 last heating season.

One other note.  The high usage in Jan 2010 was common back then.  By Feb of that year I had chased down excessive usage with a killawatt meter.  I was able to cut back our usage by 1/3, mainly by replacing an ineffective dehumidifier and super-insulating our horse stock tank, which drastically reduced electrical use of the stock tank heater.  So basically, we're able to heat our house now with the amount of electricity I used to waste.


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## Mr A

With this sort of thing, there should be absolutely no questions. American taxpayers have already contributed trillions of dollars to get this type of alternative energy going, to reduce dependence on foreign energy,.From what I have researched myself, the constant temperature underground in the mid to high 60's is optimal to pump refrigerant through, to run a heat exchanger much like an electric heat pump, that can also provide air conditioning in the summer. I have a larger than average corner suburban lot. Trenching is not an option. Vertical? Maybe, but drilling costs are prohibitive. there are do it yourself kits available. You still need to drill or trench. Expensive because hauling and operating the machinery required is not cheap. Then there is this guy. I like his simple and innovative approach to solving problems. Once in place,. you wouldn't need much wood to burn if any, to keep warm in winter.


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## cmzd

Here is a useful tool for calculating geothermal cost savings if anyone still has any interest in this thread. Thought it might help!

Geothermal Savings Calculator

Also I noticed one of the original questions was an inquiry about government assistance, so here's some information on the tax credit.

Geothermal Energy Tax Credit


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