# First year with wood insert, not really helping . . . please help!



## JMBoriss (Feb 10, 2019)

Hello!  I've read a lot on these forums but this is my first time actually creating an account and posting.

I have a 28.75" from hearth height (29.5" height from bottom firebricks to top), 41" wide and 27" deep fireplace in a 2600 sq ft open ranch.  The hearth extends out 14".  Masonry fireplace, outside of house.

This is the first winter using a CFM Corporation CW2500X00 fireplace insert I bought for $75.  I tore it apart, repainted everything and put new gaskets in.  I paid $1250 for a 6" stainless insulated liner with a new cap, installed. so not a lot of initial investment.  Before we were just using an open fireplace and our heating bills would be around $600 plus per month, extremely inefficient. 

So far with the insert, it works well only if the outside temps are above 40 degrees.   The house's thermostat is on the other side of the house and this insert keeps the house above 65 degrees, but only if the insert is running full open, all the time and I'm constantly feeding wood into it, and again, if the house temp is 40+.  I only get about 3 hours burn time as well.  I think the insert is too small.  I believe it's a 1.5cubic inch firebox.  It makes the room it's in cozy, but I'm really looking for something to supplement heat in our house, not just make it cozy.   

I'm thinking before next year insulating the fireplace with Roxul and a block off plate, but I still think the insert is just too small for the house.  I'll still do all that whatever I put in the fireplace but thinking about selling this insert for something else. 

I don't have $3k plus for a new insert that doesn't seem much bigger than the one I have now (would love the Kuma Sequoia) so I've been researching putting a wood stove in my fireplace.   

I know I need a blower and I know it can't stick out very far, due to my 14" hearth.  I can always buy a hearth extender, I understand.  I'm concerned about the 28.75 clearance so I'm thinking about hiring something to raise the height of the opening a couple rows of bricks.  Does anyone have any experience with this? 

I looking for something like this size wise:

https://www.lowes.com/pd/US-Stove-Company-3000-sq-ft-Wood-Burning-Stove/3775871

I have a speeco 25 ton, Stihl MS261C-M and 2000 Chevrolet 2500 long bed.  Cutting, splitting and hauling firewood is my happy place so I really want to use it to heat my whole house, even when the temps are sub 0. 

Any help would be appreciated. 

Day insert was installed:






With shroud removed:



My 2017 Stihl MS261C-M



My son on the 67 Wheel horse



Moose, my golden helping me load firewood.


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## Hogwildz (Feb 10, 2019)

Block off plate is a must. 1.5 is a small firebox. I am betting your wood is not dry enough. Running wide open is a waste of heat up the stack. You're better off with an Englander or Drolet, skip the US stove.


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## weatherguy (Feb 11, 2019)

How you going to get a top vent in there? Maybe the englander with short leg kit?


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## jetsam (Feb 11, 2019)

It's getting to be that time of year when the big box stores clearance out their stoves.

With a freestander you may do better going up a few feet and putting a hole in the masonry there.

I used to have a dog named Moose. She was the best!


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## Tar12 (Feb 11, 2019)

Your present insert is way to small for 2600 sq. ft. I dont know or think that you would ever be satisfied with any insert trying to heat that place...You would be much better served with a freestander...you are going to have to put up some coin if you want to save on heating...I had a insert here initially trying to heat 1976 sq. ft....it wasnt working and I installed a freestander and have not bought propane since...how is your floor plan? Open? Ceiling height?


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## Ctwoodtick (Feb 11, 2019)

How many inches does you current insert require for hearth extension and how much do you have now?


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## EatenByLimestone (Feb 11, 2019)

Ok, lots to work on here.

As others have mentioned, hearth depth is too short, a block off plate is needed, and wood is suspect.

However, your little insert should still provide a lot of heat.  CFM made a good stove!  Please take a pic of the inside so we can see the condition of the baffle.  Turning down the air will let less heat up the chimney and keep more in the room.  Lastly, I didnt read any mention of a blower on the CFM.

Thumbs up on the old golden pic!  My 12yo golden rides with me every chance he gets!


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## maple1 (Feb 11, 2019)

With that in an exterior fireplace, with no block off plate or insulation between the brick & the insert, you are losing a ton of heat to the outdoors.

Plus the small size...


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Feb 11, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> Hello!  I've read a lot on these forums but this is my first time actually creating an account and posting.
> 
> I have a 28.75" from hearth height (29.5" height from bottom firebricks to top), 41" wide and 27" deep fireplace in a 2600 sq ft open ranch.  The hearth extends out 14".  Masonry fireplace, outside of house.
> 
> ...


You are on the right track.  

I'd start by getting a pack of roxul and stuffing it in the opening around where the liner disappears into the chimney.  If you can get the insulation behind the stove, also.  

A block off plate to seal the area should help, too.

Make sure the wood is dry.

I'd also consider a larger insert.  I think there are some deals around this time of year.  Perhaps there is still a month or two this year to utilize it.   Will your fireplace accommodate it?  You can always extend the hearth.

I think your stove is a Century.  SBI makes several larger versions of your insert, from Drolet, Century, and Osburn. 

I also like the idea of raising it up.  I'd do that too if it wouldn't require major chimney surgery.


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## JMBoriss (Feb 11, 2019)

Thank you all for the replies.  Yes, my unit does have a blower that runs on high, although it doesn't seem to push out a lot of air from the front.  My house is a pretty open floor plan with one room with a 12' ceiling but I have a ceiling fan blowing air down.

I do have a moisture meter and the wood I'm burning, even after just splitting it smaller is under 20%.  Mostly 10-15%, taken from the center of wood, not the ends.  

I'll take a picture of the baffle in the insert firebox and flue/6"pipe of the chimney inside when I get home today.  I do know the baffle in the fireplace insert seems to be in really good shape, no rust, full of insulation so I just painted it and put it back in.  It's all metal and one side's metal thicker than the other.  I put the thicker side facing the direct fire.  

It seems like I definitely need to do a block off plate with roxul insulation up top, hi temp silicon caulk up top around the block off plate to seal everything off.  I also need to insulate the sides and back of the fireplace since the fireplace chimney brick faces outside.  Should I do the bottom of the fireplace box as well that's under the insert? We have a crawl space.  From the block off plate up top, what do you all use to seal up around where the 6" pipe comes through the block off plate?  Hi temp silicon?

I had a conversation with the wife and she definitely does not want a free standing stove in the fireplace or in front so I guess that's out.  With help from you all, Drolet 1800i seems to be the best bang for the buck.  Seems I can get it new for around $1000.  I'm sure I could sell my little CFM for around $300.  I wish there was a bigger one available for a little more but the 2.4 cu.ft size of the 1800i firebox is much an improvement to my 1.5, I think.  I can't afford the 2-3k ones right now.  I haven't look at the century's or osburns.  The stores around me have Regency and Napoleon and those are way too expensive $4k and up.  

I'll start looking for a bigger insert and figure out a plan to completely insulate my existing masonry fireplace as best I can.

Thank you all for the replies.


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## georgepds (Feb 11, 2019)

Re "I had a conversation with the wife and she definitely does not want a free standing stove in the fireplace or in front so I guess that's out"

That's too bad.. a stove would provide a lot more heat. 

Me I like the look of mine. I took my wife to the factory to look at some, and she fell in love with the woodstock PH. If the budget permits, you might want to consider a more expensive stove. There are some lookers out there

Helps a lot if your wife is pushing you to do something you want to do already.


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## Hogwildz (Feb 11, 2019)

You can insulate around the outer casing of the insert it you want. More importantly is a block off plate at the damper are of the old firebox.
Silicone is fine for everything except where the liner comes through the lower block off plate. Leave a small gap and stuff some door rope gasket in there.

As far as being "stuck" to an insert. Many here are uninformed. Thinking an insert puts out less heat than a freestanding in the same hole. Same difference. A stove in that hole, whether freestanding or insert, is going to do the same job. With a proper block off plate, the heat has no where to go, but out into the room. Whether a freestander in there or an insert, same results. So take those advising on a freestander "heating more" with a grain of salt. Actually, an insert is made to convect more heated air, not all freestanders are, so the argument a freestander is better inside a fireplace is pure bullshitsky.
Heating 2666sf here with an insert just fine.

Next up will be the BK enthusiasts, but that will be much over what you want to spend.

The 1800 will serve you well, and you most likely won't want to replace it for many years to come.


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## georgepds (Feb 11, 2019)

Hogwildz said:


> ...
> 
> As far as being "stuck" to an insert. Many here are uninformed. Thinking an insert puts out less heat than a freestanding in the same hole. ....



OK I'll bite.. what is the peak BTU/Hr of the insert you recommended.

How does that compare to to a WPH ( 12-73 k BTU/hr *)

For the possibly uninformed , the greater the BTU /hr, the hotter the house

For that matter, what is the efficiency ( again 81% for the WPH *)

Ignore these measures at your peril when choosing

Should these measures be the same for the insert, by all means go for the insert

*https://www.woodstove.com/progress-hybrid


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## Hogwildz (Feb 11, 2019)

georgepds said:


> OK I'll bite.. what is the peak BTU/Hr of the insert you recommended.
> 
> How does that compare to to a WPH ( 12-73 k BTU/hr *)
> 
> ...


Claimed peak BTUS is your first ill informed mistake. Firebox size, then actual BTUs per hour is more realistic and common factors.
Claimed efficiency is your second ill informed mistake. Efficiency is based on many factors, not controlled lab testing. More so, wood dryness, operator habits, set up, flue etc.
Focusing on these measure when purchasing is your 3rd ill informed mistake.
He wants an insert. He didn't ask for a stove to install in place of the insert.
Have you ever owned an insert?
An insert is made to: fit in a fireplace, and engineered for that purpose, with considerations for convection, fitment, use of space, casing & distribution of heat for such fitment. Is your stove?

There are many more choices of inserts made for the installation, that will fit in the firebox, and use the space to the most advantage. How many stoves are made with this purpose in mind?
Given the size of the old firebox, the limits & choices of a freestanding stove are minimal.
And a freestanding stove will have maximum wasted usage of space installed in a fireplace firebox, giving less cf of usable new firebox space. Unless you have a large  enough fireplace to install said freestander into, which he does not.

How does a freestander stuffed inside a fireplace, heat any better than an insert that is made to take full advantage of the space, with the largest firebox size available for the space? Legs, pedastal, are just a couple things wasting usable firebox space.

And your purdy Progress ain't fitting into his fireplace  firebox.
How many inserts have you replaced with a freestander? Have you ever used an insert?

There are two numbers of efficiency that are used for comparison. Again based on laboratory testing, not real world usage. They are not that far apart. And I am sure given the many factors of set up, wood moisture content, operators habits etc, the number are more realistically all over the place.
If you based all your decisions on the measures posted on controlled lab results, I have some real nice land to sell you.

Now you are informed.


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## Hogwildz (Feb 11, 2019)

JMBorris,
You may also want to take a look at the Osburn 2400
https://www.osburnwoodstoves.com/Os...wzz7d-YSazpwcoYJDe-a0CP6sVhHvfp4aAuzsEALw_wcB

Nice big firebox, that looks to fit into your existing firebox.


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## TWilk117 (Feb 11, 2019)

Hogwildz said:


> Claimed peak BTUS is your first ill informed mistake. Firebox size, then actual BTUs per hour is more realistic and common factors.
> Claimed efficiency is your second ill informed mistake. Efficiency is based on many factors, not controlled lab testing. More so, wood dryness, operator habits, set up, flue etc.
> Focusing on these measure when purchasing is your 3rd ill informed mistake.
> He wants an insert. He didn't ask for a stove to install in place of the insert.
> ...



Forgive me if I’m wrong, and please know I’m not trying to be argumentative or get in some kind of battle, but don’t most people that switch from masonry to freestanding, have the stove out on the hearth? Sometimes even going as far as to lower the hearth down closer to floor level and extend it forward? I haven’t seen too many free standing stoves shoved into a fire box, mine being an exception because my stove is tiny and isn’t in its forever position yet.


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## Dix (Feb 11, 2019)

Not to throw gasoline on the fire, but Hogz has good points. I've been running the PE since fall with out a fan (working on it, working on it, have new fan installed, now need new AC cord & disc sensor to arrive), since fall with out the fan, and even when we had 0F and colder a few eeks ago, the PE was heating the house to 76F or higher with just a $10 small table fan blowing across the EXTENDED front glass, and 2 ceiling fans for assistance.

To the OP... you will need a bigger firebox to get a house that size comfy and maintain the heat. I heat 2000 SF with the PE and the 13 when they are both running (weird layout).


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## TheIndian (Feb 11, 2019)

Hogwildz said:


> ....is pure bullshitsky.
> Heating 2666sf here with an insert just fine.
> 
> Next up will be the BK enthusiasts,.....



LOL Hilarious


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## georgepds (Feb 11, 2019)

Re
"Claimed peak BTUS is your first ill informed mistake. Firebox size, then actual BTUs per hour is more realistic and common factors.

Claimed efficiency is your second ill informed mistake. Efficiency is based on many factors, not controlled lab testing. More so, wood dryness, operator habits, set up, flue etc."

So,what do you suggest to replace epa verifed tests...  uniformed opinion ?

Re
"Focusing on these measure when purchasing is your 3rd ill informed mistake."

In what world is less heat and less efficiency better? He lives in a cold house, more heat is better


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## ColdNorCal (Feb 11, 2019)

I almost installed an insert but wanted a free standing to save money and not have to rely on a fan.  With a lot of extra work and some unconventional approaches, I installed a free standing that sticks out about 75% from the fireplace opening. If this was not possible, I would have been just as happy with an insert.  

SBI makes Century, Drolet and Osburn. The Century CW2900 and Drolet 1800i are almost the same. The cw2900 costs less and comes with the shroud. The blower has less cfms and does not have auto on/off. This can be addressed with an $8 thermo switch.  A new 1800i for $1,000 is a very good price. You could install it and decide on the shroud later. If you think the firebox is large enough... 

Definitely insulate and block off plate.


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## Hogwildz (Feb 11, 2019)

TWilk117 said:


> Forgive me if I’m wrong, and please know I’m not trying to be argumentative or get in some kind of battle, but don’t most people that switch from masonry to freestanding, have the stove out on the hearth? Sometimes even going as far as to lower the hearth down closer to floor level and extend it forward? I haven’t seen too many free standing stoves shoved into a fire box, mine being an exception because my stove is tiny and isn’t in its forever position yet.



Some do, some don't. Some don't want to lose the real estate to the stove for one reason or another. Some can't fit a stove in the old firebox and are okay with either a rear vent or cutting a new hole in the flue and running the pipe up and into the new flue opening, other don't want that. There a re a few folks with large enough, or seriously large fireplaces, that they can fit any stove inside no problem. If a stove fits in, why let it take up more real estate than necessary? Similar thinking to an insert. Many reason for many installs.  My point is, telling someone to install a stove when they want an insert, and have the space for an insert more so than a stove, and misleading them stating " That's too bad.. a stove would provide a lot more heat", or "Your present insert is way to small for 2600 sq. ft. I dont know or think that you would ever be satisfied with any insert trying to heat that place...You would be much better served with a freestander" is complete BS.

Obviously one poster didn't like what I had to say, and doesn't like the informative response I offered. I suppose it just doesn't support their "advice", and they don't like that. Can't please everyone, but rest assured, I will call BS when I see it.


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## TWilk117 (Feb 11, 2019)

Hogwildz said:


> Some do, some don't. Some don't want to lose the real estate to the stove for one reason or another. Some can't fit a stove in the old firebox and are okay with either a rear vent or cutting a new hole in the flue and running the pipe up and into the new flue opening, other don't want that. There a re a few folks with large enough, or seriously large fireplaces, that they can fit any stove inside no problem. If a stove fits in, why let it take up more real estate than necessary? Similar thinking to an insert. Many reason for many installs.  My point is, telling someone to install a stove when they want an insert, and have the space for an insert more so than a stove, and misleading them stating " That's too bad.. a stove would provide a lot more heat", or "Your present insert is way to small for 2600 sq. ft. I dont know or think that you would ever be satisfied with any insert trying to heat that place...You would be much better served with a freestander" is complete BS.
> 
> Obviously one poster didn't like what I had to say, and doesn't like the informative response I offered. I suppose it just doesn't support their "advice", and they don't like that. Can't please everyone, but rest assured, I will call BS when I see it.


Good points Hogwildz, cheers!


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## TWilk117 (Feb 11, 2019)

ColdNorCal said:


> I almost installed an insert but wanted a free standing to save money and not have to rely on a fan.  With a lot of extra work and some unconventional approaches, I installed a free standing that sticks out about 75% from the fireplace opening. If this was not possible, I would have been just as happy with an insert.
> 
> SBI makes Century, Drolet and Osburn. The Century CW2900 and Drolet 1800i are almost the same. The cw2900 costs less and comes with the shroud. The blower has less cfms and does not have auto on/off. This can be addressed with an $8 thermo switch.  A new 1800i for $1,000 is a very good price. You could install it and decide on the shroud later. If you think the firebox is large enough...
> 
> Definitely insulate and block off plate.


I grew up with a Fire Boss insert in the house. Loved it. I would come home from school and get it going when I was just a squirt.


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## JMBoriss (Feb 11, 2019)

Thanks for all the replies guys I appreciate it and learning a lot.  That Osburn 2400 is a beast, huge firebox but at $2200, I think for now the CW2900 and Drolet 1800i would be in my price range.  I will do research on all of them.  Who knows, I'll start searching around for a used one. Great idea about the door rope for getting in between the gap of the block off plate 6" hole.  

Here are pictures I took today of the pipe the installers did.  I looked around, I think my block off plate will have to be slanted due to the bricks that were knocked out in the back.  I have to be honest, first time looking at how they installed it.  Seems to me like they didn't need to do THAT much damage to get the pipe down.  It seems it'll now be harder for me to do a block off plate.  Maybe I can do it higher up??  Anyways, can't do anything about it now.  

Anyone selling a bigger fireplace insert in the Indiana/Ohio/Michigan area?!?  lol.  But seriously.


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## weatherguy (Feb 11, 2019)

Actually hog he came here looking at putting a free stander that's why people were suggesting that. I'd look at the osburn 2400 if it fits your F/P and price range, one of the bigger affordable inserts.


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## Hogwildz (Feb 11, 2019)

georgepds said:


> Re
> "Claimed peak BTUS is your first ill informed mistake. Firebox size, then actual BTUs per hour is more realistic and common factors.
> 
> Claimed efficiency is your second ill informed mistake. Efficiency is based on many factors, not controlled lab testing. More so, wood dryness, operator habits, set up, flue etc."
> ...


 I suggest, anyone looking to purchase a stove, that they do much research, like most if not all of those here have done. Ask questions like the OP has here. Read reviews of real set ups, experiences, burning habits/techniques, and determine what is their preference of wood burner they want, and what the main factors are in the wood burner they want before they purchase. Not just go buy whatever is the latest trend, or what the has the claimed "highest  output (peak or not), or whoever claims the highest efficiency whether 77% or 81%(again determined by burning specific test wood in a controlled lab environment) which by the way is not typical of hardwoods or any wood someone bucks, splits and dries on their own site, etc. etc. etc.

Example:
Your WPH claims as folows:
$3,990.00 on sale for $3,590.00 for a whopping $400.00 "savings".
Advertised Firebox size: 2.8 Cu.ft.
Claimed max heat output: Max Heat Output: 80,000 BTUs /hr. (from their website, highly doubtful).
Claimed Heat Output (*EPA Test Method*): 12,538 - 73,171 BTU's/hr (um okay sure if they say so).
*EPA Efficiency*: 81%
*EPA Emission Rating*: 1.33 gms/hr
Heat up to 2200 square feet- _easily (_easily in which set up & circumstance)? Wide open floor plan? Rancher with heat at one end?

VS.

Drolet Escape1800
$1,199.00 MSRP as listed on site
Advertised Firebox size: 2.4Cu. ft.
Claimed max heat output: 75,000 BTU/h (highly doubtful)
Claimed Heat Output 14,800 BTU/h to 28,600 BTU/h
Average overall efficiency (*EPA cribs / Douglas fir*) *N.A.*
Average overall efficiency (dry cordwood) 69 % at low output 74 % at high output. (Again, who cares).
Optimum efficiency 77 % more numbers thrown on a spec sheet.
Average particulate emissions rate1.54 g/h
Recommended heating area (sq.ft.) 500 - 2,100

VS.

Osburn 2400
$2,699.00, have to call for sale price
Advertised Firebox size: 3.4 Cu. Ft.
Claimed max heat output: Max Heat Output: 100,000 BTUs (from their website, again highly doubtful, but they are not stating per hour like Woodstock is).
Claimed Heat Output: 13,300 BTU/h - 44,100 BTU/h
Optimum efficiency for the OB02401 equals 78 %( they added 1% over the typical EPA rating for this class of 77%, who cares.
Average particulate emissions rate 3.9 g/h
Recommended heating area of 1,000 - 2,700 square feet.

And to confuse consumers even more, they throw the standard notes in there:
*1*) This appliance is officially tested and certified by an independent agency.

(*2*) Values are as measured per test method, except for the recommended heating area, firebox volume, maximum burn time and maximum heat output.

 Recommended heating area and maximum burn time may vary subject to location in home, chimney draft,heat loss factors, climate, fuel type and other variables. The recommended heated area for a given appliance is defined by the manufacturer as its capacity to maintain a minimum acceptable temperature in the designated area in case of a power failure.

(*3*) The maximum heat output (dry cordwood) is based on a loading density varying between 15 lb/ft³ and 20 lb/ft³. Other performances are based on a fuel load prescribed by the standard. The specified loading density varies between 7 lb/ft³ and 12 lb/ft³. The moisture content is between 19% and 25%.

(*4*) As measured per CSA B415.1-10 stack loss method.

(*5*) Higher Heating Value of the fuel.

(*6*) Lower Heating Value of the fuel.

(*7*) Performances based on a fuel load prescribed by the standard at 7 lb/ft³ and with a moisture content between 19% and 25%.

(*8*) Optimum overall efficiency at a specific burn rate (LHV).

(*9*) Carbon monoxyde.

Insert come with blowers, does the WPH?
Inserts are made to fit the space, your Progress leaves a whole 1" to spare height wise, of course you truly won't know till you're trying to slide that 700lb rock back into place.

What do you do when a stone cracks, time to replace gaskets, or worse? Pull that 700lbs out... yay fun.
Oh, how will he load it from one side or the other since it is a side loading stove?  Guess he is back to arguing with the wife to plop that thing in front of the fireplace, and run piping up the face of fireplace to the new hole he has to put through the the new thimble he has to install.
But hey, after that entire fiasco, he can now use the free 3 burner cook top, that is a plus. Insert eye roll here---->

So, you were saying "In what world is less heat and less efficiency better? He lives in a cold house, more heat is better"
So in all those numbers you so highly regard, where is the added noteworthy extra heat output from the freestander?

Again, you're now informed. Any other questions, I refer you to google, which In should have done in the first place. I did this for the original poster, so he can see I am not just throwing my opinion at him, to talk him into something he nor his wife wants. And saving him a huge extra cost and headache.

JMBorris, get the largest firebox size insert you can fit in that hole, and that is the best you can do, which will be much warmth. Aside from plopping something in front of the fireplace and adding in the extra cost and effort than you will already have to put out.
As I said, read all advise, take some into consideration, and take much with a grain of salt. This is for you and your wife to be happy, not someone else telling you what you should or should not get & do.

Lastly, NEVER, EVER base your decision on advertised max/ normal heat outputs & advertised square footage advertised. Go by fire box size(and check actual usable), and what suites your wants & needs. The numbers posted on manufacturer sites are misleading, as are the EPA output lab result numbers. You would get better insight from actual owners here and a few other sites.


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## Tar12 (Feb 11, 2019)

Hogwildz said:


> Some do, some don't. Some don't want to lose the real estate to the stove for one reason or another. Some can't fit a stove in the old firebox and are okay with either a rear vent or cutting a new hole in the flue and running the pipe up and into the new flue opening, other don't want that. There a re a few folks with large enough, or seriously large fireplaces, that they can fit any stove inside no problem. If a stove fits in, why let it take up more real estate than necessary? Similar thinking to an insert. Many reason for many installs.  My point is, telling someone to install a stove when they want an insert, and have the space for an insert more so than a stove, and misleading them stating " That's too bad.. a stove would provide a lot more heat", or "Your present insert is way to small for 2600 sq. ft. I dont know or think that you would ever be satisfied with any insert trying to heat that place...You would be much better served with a freestander" is complete BS.
> 
> Obviously one poster didn't like what I had to say, and doesn't like the informative response I offered. I suppose it just doesn't support their "advice", and they don't like that. Can't please everyone, but rest assured, I will call BS when I see it.


I was in no way trying to mislead the OP or telling him to he HAD to go with a Freestanding stove...it was merely a suggestion based upon my experiences with a insert I had along with 2 friends who had inserts with small fireboxes trying to heat roughly what the OP is trying to do...it didnt work for me or the one friend...we both went with freestanders and are quite satisfied with the results.Where is the BS there? If he can get it done with a insert more power to him!


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## Hogwildz (Feb 11, 2019)

weatherguy said:


> Actually hog he came here looking at putting a free stander that's why people were suggesting that. I'd look at the osburn 2400 if it fits your F/P and price range, one of the bigger affordable inserts.


That is correct, due to the fact he didn't want to shell out $3,000+ for an insert, which he is finding he doesn't have to do. Lastly, the one person that has final say is the wife(thank god I'm not married). He wants a happy life, so he best keep a happy wife. Nuff said. Poor bastard.


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## Hogwildz (Feb 11, 2019)

Tar12 said:


> I was in no way trying to mislead the OP or telling him to he HAD to go with a Freestanding stove...it was merely a suggestion based upon my experiences with a insert I had along with 2 friends who had inserts with small fireboxes trying to heat roughly what the OP is trying to do...it didnt work for me or the one friend...we both went with freestanders and are quite satisfied with the results.Where is the BS there? If he can get it done with a insert more power to him!


Not knowing insert you had, it could ahve been too small to handle the load, as his is. Or was it a US stove, or other subpar insert? Too many factors, too many different set ups, and too many situations, all one different from another. Glad it worked out for you. If you are happy, that is what counts. I mistakenly lumped you into the discussion, and for that I will apologize. Of course I still stand by my advise to the OP. Not one fix, fixes all problems, so of course there is always alternatives. He gave guidelines and reason, I followed along that. If I had a jumbo fireplace, I might have considered a large freestander if it would fit. Was not happening, so I went with the largest insert I could get, that fit, which it barely did. I am however impressed with heating the space I am with what I have. Home layout is everything. A great convection loop is all the difference, insert or stove.


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## Hogwildz (Feb 11, 2019)

JMBorris, can you install the block off plate from the top of the lintel, straight back? That may be your best bet, and you won't have to contort your arms too far up into the old box. Doesn't really matter where you install the plate, as long as you can get it in there, and seal it. Lower is better when installing after the fact.

And making it out of 2 or even 3 pcs will make it easier to install.


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## ColdNorCal (Feb 11, 2019)

When I cutout the damper with a sawzall it loosened up the bricks in the same area that your bricks were removed. I simply mortared them back into place. You could either make a plate to cover the hole or buy a couple of firebricks and mortar them in. Their is also the chance the bricks are lying on the smoke shelf. Just reach back their and feel around for them. It looks like pieces of bricks in the pics you posted.  Then install a plate as hogz suggested.


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## JMBoriss (Feb 11, 2019)

Great, thank you all, I really appreciate it.  I've read a little bit about block off plates and what thickness steel did you use and where did you get it?  Also, would you put roxul anything under the insert or just top (above block off plate - I'll probably add 2 or 3+ layers) back and sides?  Did you just friction fit the roxul to the back and sides or affix them some how?  Thank you.


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## georgepds (Feb 11, 2019)

Hogwildz said:


> I suggest, anyone looking to purchase a stove, that they do much research, like most if not all of those here have done. Ask questions like the OP has here. Read reviews of real set ups, experiences, burning habits/techniques, and determine what is their preference of wood burner they want, and what the main factors are in the wood burner they want before they purchase. Not just go buy whatever is the latest trend, or what the has the claimed "highest  output (peak or not), or whoever claims the highest efficiency whether 77% or 81%(again determined by burning specific test wood in a controlled lab environment) which by the way is not typical of hardwoods or any wood someone bucks, splits and dries on their own site, etc. etc. etc.
> 
> Example:
> Your WPH claims as folows:
> ...



So the insert has roughly ~44k btu/hr output, and the stove ~74k btu / hr

And somehow you conclude the insert is going to be warmer...

Wow

Really, you can't argue with that, really


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## ColdNorCal (Feb 11, 2019)

If it were me, Id stuff roxul/mineral wool into the chimney as far up as you can using a stick, piece of pipe, broom... on back and sides, fill up the smoke shelf and insulate above plate. One bag of insulation can do a lot. 

Some have just placed insulation behind and on top of insert. The insert shroud should keep fibers from entering the house if installed well.  

Lots of examples/threads on this site of insulating fireplace for inserts....


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## Hogwildz (Feb 11, 2019)

georgepds said:


> So the insert has roughly ~44k btu/hr output, and the stove ~74k btu / hr
> 
> And somehow you conclude the insert is going to be warmer...
> 
> ...


Advertised controlled tested numbers. You just don't get it. That's all you can come up with? 
Yes, still ill informed, and refusing to open your mind. So be it. Have fun with that.

How did 73,171 turn into 74? Your trying your best, I'll give you that.
So you believe the claim of 80,000 btu hr peak, and you're going to get 74,000 btu/hr for the length of the burn.

Again back to your ill informed ",measures".
I'll say it slow & simple. Claimed/advertised peak & low to high burns times are all "claimed" lab testing numbers. Means.....nothing.

A 2.8 firebox vs a 3.4 firebox. Simple. more wood fuel, more heat. There is your answer. A load of wood puts out so many btus.
Unless its' the magical Blaze King, which yours is not, you ain't going to out heat a box over 1/2 a cu ft larger.
If you want to go by the claimed numbers, why are you ignoring the 100,000 btus vs your piddly 85,000? I'll tell you why, because those numbers along with the peak , low & high "advertised" burn btus is a load of shitsky.

Put your stove in the hole, vs the insert, and the same thing will happen. The rest of the info is up to you to go look and inform yourself about.
School is out.


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## Hogwildz (Feb 11, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> Great, thank you all, I really appreciate it.  I've read a little bit about block off plates and what thickness steel did you use and where did you get it?  Also, would you put roxul anything under the insert or just top (above block off plate - I'll probably add 2 or 3+ layers) back and sides?  Did you just friction fit the roxul to the back and sides or affix them some how?  Thank you.


Go to the HVAC dept of HD or lowes, and get yourself a flat sheet of galv duct metal.  Bend minimal 1" flanges around the entire perimeter of the block off plate, at slightly less than a 90 degree angle. Friction will help hold it in place, and you can tapcon some screws into the masonry, and silicone around the perimeter to seal.

Roxul around the insert, when the insert has no outer shell or casing, is only going to keep the heat from existing the insert into the house IMO. Kind of defeating the purpose. If it had an outer casing, I would be more inclined to agree with insulating around the sides and back.

Don't overthink. I would do the block off plate first, and see if that helps. Some have found a drastic improvement just by installing a block off plate. Not saying it will solve all your problems, but you never know till you put it in there. And you will want it with whatever burner is sitting in there.
Put the block off plate in. Batt insulation  does not stop air flow. Roxul on top of the plate is good though. You can stuff more up in the area of the liner that isn't insulated, but don't rely on Roxul as an air barrier.


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## HomeinPA (Feb 11, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> Thanks for all the replies guys I appreciate it and learning a lot.  That Osburn 2400 is a beast, huge firebox but at $2200, I think for now the CW2900 and Drolet 1800i would be in my price range.  I will do research on all of them.  Who knows, I'll start searching around for a used one. Great idea about the door rope for getting in between the gap of the block off plate 6" hole.
> 
> Here are pictures I took today of the pipe the installers did.  I looked around, I think my block off plate will have to be slanted due to the bricks that were knocked out in the back.  I have to be honest, first time looking at how they installed it.  Seems to me like they didn't need to do THAT much damage to get the pipe down.  It seems it'll now be harder for me to do a block off plate.  Maybe I can do it higher up??  Anyways, can't do anything about it now.
> 
> ...


Well, at least the inside of your chimney is staying warm , that's where all your heat is going. They could have at least stuffed some insulation up there.


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## georgepds (Feb 12, 2019)

Hogwildz said:


> Advertised controlled tested numbers. You just don't get it. That's all you can come up with?
> Yes, still ill informed, and refusing to open your mind. So be it. Have fun with that.
> 
> How did 73,171 turn into 74? Your trying your best, I'll give you that.
> ...



So do you know that the symbol ~ means approximately? Am I mistaken, but are you not arguing you can't believe the numbers in the first place, yet you call out the difference between ~73 and~74.

So, I should have said,  the insert has roughly ~44k btu/hr output, and the stove ~73k btu / hr..  Thank you for the detailed correction.

This is starting to resemble that section in 1984 where Winston learns 2+2 = 5, or whatever the state wants..

You got me, I concede,  at least in Bizzaro  Wild  worlds, 44 is > > 73.

Really, it's truly hard to argue with logic like that


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## Hogwildz (Feb 12, 2019)

georgepds said:


> So do you know that the symbol ~ means approximately? Am I mistaken, but are you not arguing you can't believe the numbers in the first place, yet you call out the difference between ~73 and~74.
> 
> So, I should have said,  the insert has roughly ~44k btu/hr output, and the stove ~73k btu / hr..  Thank you for the detailed correction.
> 
> ...


Answer this....have you ever owned an insert?
And stay hung up on those numbers. Yeah they are real world and across the line in every install, with any wood, and any set up. Yeah, no. And I still have some prime land to sell you, the numbers and claims on it are simply wonderful.

3.4 > 2.8 every time.

PS. the difference between ~73 and~74 gave me a chuckle. Your reach is obvious, yet a fail never the less. You do know that numbers are rounded down till 5 and up at 5 right?
Thanks for the laughs... while I did enjoy the useless banter, note that focus was still given to the OP and information he requested advise on. While you offered absolutely nothing, zero, zip, zilch, nada.
I get it, you're easily distracted, happens to ill informed folks desperately trying to get their opinion across, while supplying no real world info.


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## maple1 (Feb 12, 2019)

Firebox size isn't a measure of btu/hr output. It's just the size of the fuel tank - or total btu capacity. Not all stoves can burn that load at the same rate or put all that heat output into the house.

I would also consider tested btu/hr ratings decent comparative data. At least they're not talking square feet of heating ability - those are truly hokey numbers. Combine a bigger firebox capacity with lower heat output numbers and you should get longer burn times - which may be the biggest factor for some. Combine a smaller firebox capacity with bigger output numbers and you should get bigger heating capability - at the cost of reloading more often.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Feb 12, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> Great, thank you all, I really appreciate it.  I've read a little bit about block off plates and what thickness steel did you use and where did you get it?  Also, would you put roxul anything under the insert or just top (above block off plate - I'll probably add 2 or 3+ layers) back and sides?  Did you just friction fit the roxul to the back and sides or affix them some how?  Thank you.


Nothing new here, but I'll pile on a bit and encourage you to plug up that space going up into the chimney with Roxul, insulate behind the stove, and sides, perhaps, then install the block off plate.  

My setup is almost identical to yours.  You should notice a pretty significant improvement with the existing stove.  Even better with one of the bigger ones.  I currently have a twin of the larger Drolet/century ones you are looking at, and would go with the even larger osburn if it would have fit.  Make sure that whatever you choose will fit.  Mine barely did.  Back corners are hitting brick in the back.

Much of your heat is just going up the chimney until you get it blocked off.  Some heat will be siphoned off through the back and (less so) sides of the external chimney, a big heat sink that isn't going into the house.

Don't worry about sitting it on Roxul. Just leave it sitting on the brick hearth.


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## Jags (Feb 12, 2019)

There is plenty of good info going on for the OP that this thread deserves to live.  Hard numbers such as firebox size typically will mean more than potentially fuzzy numbers (heat capability) put out by peeps trying to sell stoves. Its the same game that create massive tonnage log splitters that simple don’t calculate out.

Good info - but My spidey senses are tingling.


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## EatenByLimestone (Feb 12, 2019)

I was able to heat a 1600 ft house with the small CFM made Century in my signature.  A small stove can make a major dent in a fuel bill, even if it doesn't carry the entire structure.


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## JMBoriss (Feb 12, 2019)

What size tapcon screws should I use?  How long do you recommend?  I assume not too long maybe 1.5” or so?  I’m going to buy roxul for the back and sides and block off plate but what make/model of insulation should I use to stuff up the chimney as far as I can?


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## bholler (Feb 12, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> What size tapcon screws should I use?  How long do you recommend?  I assume not too long maybe 1.5” or so?  I’m going to buy roxul for the back and sides and block off plate but what make/model of insulation should I use to stuff up the chimney as far as I can?


Roxul there as well.  We usually use 1.25" tapcons


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## JMBoriss (Feb 12, 2019)

I'm on the Roxul website and what specific kind should I buy for the back and walls and top?  How about to stuff up the chimney?  I'd like to do this this evening when I get home from work.  Stop by Lowes and pick up the supplies.  Rockwood safe and sound?  Comfortbatt?  I assume the higher the R value the better.


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## bholler (Feb 12, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> I'm on the Roxul website and what specific kind should I buy for the back and walls and top?  How about to stuff up the chimney?  I'd like to do this this evening when I get home from work.  Stop by Lowes and pick up the supplies.  Rockwood safe and sound?  Comfortbatt?  I assume the higher the R value the better.


I have always used safe and sound


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## spudman99 (Feb 12, 2019)

Safe and sound is fine.  The other kind is for thermal insulation but they both have the same R value.  Should be priced about the same also.


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## mellow (Feb 12, 2019)

Plenty of threads on insulating the fireplace and how to's on a block off plate.   Once you do that you will see a difference.


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## JMBoriss (Feb 12, 2019)

I just reviewed almost all of those threads.  Very informative.  So I went to Lowe’s this evening and bought 2 bundles of roxul comfortbat R15 and try to friction fit it above the insert. That was a bad idea so Saturday I’ll be moving out the insert, doing the block off plate with sheet metal and stuffing roxul up the chimney.  It seems a lot of people don’t insulate the back and sides.  I plan to as I have a exterior brick chimney.  Other than durarock what can I use to hold the roxul to the back and sides?


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## weatherguy (Feb 12, 2019)

You can use metal if you want and paint it black, anything not flammable. You might have some leftover roxul, two bundles is a lot, I bought one and have left overs.


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## illini81 (Feb 13, 2019)

georgepds said:


> OK I'll bite.. what is the peak BTU/Hr of the insert you recommended.
> 
> How does that compare to to a WPH ( 12-73 k BTU/hr *)
> 
> ...



If you're strictly a numbers guy, then my insert (74k BTU, 84.7% efficiency) outheats your free stander (73k BTU, 81% efficiency)  So maybe inserts aren't too shabby after all?

However, I'm with Hogz - firebox size is going to give you a better indication of overall heating ability.  

When I first started looking at stoves, many on hearth.com told me 1. Exterior chimneys are terrible, and 2. Inserts are terrible.  I spent a few months exhausting every possible option for installing a freestander with an internal chimney.  Eventually I concluded it would simply require too much work (would have had to take down walls to go with a free stander).  I begrudgingly settled for what hearth.com had convinced me was a poor choice (insert with an exterior chimney), and I could not be happier with the results. 

In my opinion, there are not many inserts above 2.5 cuft, and not many that are true N/S loaders (easier to fully take advantage of firebox size).  Since many of the inserts out there are smaller, E/W loaders, many people get the impression that inserts in general won't put out as much heat.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Feb 13, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> I just reviewed almost all of those threads.  Very informative.  So I went to Lowe’s this evening and bought 2 bundles of roxul comfortbat R15 and try to friction fit it above the insert. That was a bad idea so Saturday I’ll be moving out the insert, doing the block off plate with sheet metal and stuffing roxul up the chimney.  It seems a lot of people don’t insulate the back and sides.  I plan to as I have a exterior brick chimney.  Other than durarock what can I use to hold the roxul to the back and sides?



Well done, JMB, you are well on your way to a warmer house.

Behind my insert, I just stacked up a couple of pieces on edge, cut a little too long so they'd smoosh in.  Took them back out and spray painted them black, then put em back.   I'd probably just use some sheet metal if I do it over.  The paint didn't work great.  

Keep us updated, please.


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## spudman99 (Feb 13, 2019)

I agree that 2 bundles is too much.  Cut the Roxul with a bread knife or serated knife, it is so easy and true.  Like cutting cake.  Take your time when you have the insert pulled so that you do it right the first time.  Plan out some way of securing the sheet metal or whatever you chose that is between the roxul and your insert in the firebox to the rear walls.  Some have used cement board as a divider between the unit and the insulation, frankly sheet metal is easier to cut and fit.


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## danham (Feb 13, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> Thanks for all the replies guys I appreciate it and learning a lot.  That Osburn 2400 is a beast, huge firebox but at $2200, I think for now the CW2900 and Drolet 1800i would be in my price range.  I will do research on all of them.  Who knows, I'll start searching around for a used one. Great idea about the door rope for getting in between the gap of the block off plate 6" hole.
> 
> Here are pictures I took today of the pipe the installers did.  I looked around, I think my block off plate will have to be slanted due to the bricks that were knocked out in the back.  I have to be honest, first time looking at how they installed it.  Seems to me like they didn't need to do THAT much damage to get the pipe down.  It seems it'll now be harder for me to do a block off plate.  Maybe I can do it higher up??  Anyways, can't do anything about it now.
> 
> Anyone selling a bigger fireplace insert in the Indiana/Ohio/Michigan area?!?  lol.  But seriously.



I found that with a similar leaky installation I was able to use Roxul to block off the chimney until I get around to creating a real plate. In fact, the Roxul is working so well that I plan to procrastinate a whole lot more. ;-)

-dan


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## shortys7777 (Feb 13, 2019)

I heat 1500 sq ft ranch with a enviro insert I bought. I don't have a block off plate but have as much safe and sound as I could fit up in the chimney. My chimney is also exterior. The rear bedroom was sitting at 70 last night. I don't have ideal wood this winter and I am still satisfied with the insert. My gas bill last month was $70 cheaper than last January and I was only living in the house half the month last January. This month will be a good comparison. I plan on doing a block off plate at the end of next summer and Have a good stack of wood ready for next season.


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## JMBoriss (Feb 16, 2019)

Okay, so I finally got around to doing the block off plate.  Man it was a big and filthy job and took me about 7 hours from start to finish.  I used 1 and a half bundles of Roxul Comfortbat R15, stuffed it as high as I could get it and packed it in tight.  Lowes didn't have silicon high temp caulk so I ended up using the 3M fireblock cement type caulk.  I wish I would have bought 2 as I ended up not having enough.  Will fill the rest in when I sweep next fall. 

Taking the insert out while my son watches TV and my daughter help with the vacuum:




Stuff the roxul comfortbat R15 up as far as I could get it and packing it tight.



Mocking up the block off plate.  My chimney is not uniform so it took a lot of tweaking the cardboard. 



Transferring it on the 4x2 foot sheet metal. 



There she is:



This is where I just started to get sick of everything and just wanted to get it done.  This was about 6 hours after starting.  The plan was to screw the block off plate to the bottom of the metal lintel but I kept breaking metal screws.  I just said screw it and bent the metal and put it behind the lintel and filled the gap as tight as I could with Roxul and caulk.  I figure it'll be good enough.  Here's where I ran out of the caulk, you can see it between the lintel block off plate.  I also wanted to create another piece of metal with a 6.25" circle hole but decided it was getting late and figured with all the roxul up there and packed around the liner it should be good.  Thoughts?



Roxul on back and sides, block off plate, chimney filled with Roxul, roxul stuffed around liner.




I stuffed Roxul on back and sides of insert.  Is this okay? 



And here she burns.


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## brenndatomu (Feb 16, 2019)

So where does the air come out on top of the stove? I see the side vents...but it almost looks like the roxul is blocking the hot air exit on the top? I dunno, my Drolet 1400i is a bit different...I wouldn't have the roxul sitting directly on the stove top...air jacket only


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## JMBoriss (Feb 16, 2019)

It’s not blocking the air coming out.  The air comes out in the gap between the air control slider and top. With that said, you think I should remove it from above?


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## brenndatomu (Feb 16, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> The air comes out in the gap between the air control slider and top. With that said, you think I should remove it from above?


Ah, OK...so the roxul is only against the air jacket, not the actual stove top...you're good then.
I think you are gonna notice a huge difference now...


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## JMBoriss (Feb 16, 2019)

brenndatomu said:


> Ah, OK...so the roxul is only against the air jacket, not the actual stove top...you're good then.
> I think you are gonna notice a huge difference now...



I guess I’m confused.  The roxul is sitting on top of the fireplace insert.  Is that the top of the air jacket like you’re referring?


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## brenndatomu (Feb 16, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> I guess I’m confused.  The roxul is sitting on top of the fireplace insert.  Is that the top of the air jacket like you’re referring?


You said the air comes out between the air control slider and the top...so that means the roxul cant be sitting on the actual stove top, but on the air jacket that surrounds the stove body on insert style stoves


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## JMBoriss (Feb 16, 2019)

We’re kind of getting a smell in here.  I wonder if that’s the roxul next to the exhaust or the paint curing off.  I painted it with high temp stove paint last fall.  I wonder since adding the insulation the metal temp is getting hot enough now to finally create off gassing from the high temp stove paint?  The top of the inserr is 245, door between 400-500 degrees, bottom plate 300, sides 250-300 degrees.  Glass is 700 degrees.  Interior firebox temp is 930.  I’ve never registered temps that high since installing it in the fall.


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## jetsam (Feb 16, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> We’re kind of getting a smell in here.  I wonder if that’s the roxul next to the exhaust or the paint curing off.  I painted it with high temp stove paint last fall.  I wonder since adding the insulation the metal temp is getting hot enough now to create off gassing?  The top of the inserr is 245, door between 400-500 degrees, bottom plate 300, sides 250-300 degrees.  Glass is 700 degrees.  Interior firebox temp is 930.



I can tell you from experience that putting a butane torch on roxul and letting it run doesn't create much odor.

It does eat a little hole out of the roxul after an hour or two, but butane burns friggin hot (2600°F).

I wouldn't worry about 250.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Feb 16, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> We’re kind of getting a smell in here.  I wonder if that’s the roxul next to the exhaust or the paint curing off.  I painted it with high temp stove paint last fall.  I wonder since adding the insulation the metal temp is getting hot enough now to finally create off gassing from the high temp stove paint?  The top of the inserr is 245, door between 400-500 degrees, bottom plate 300, sides 250-300 degrees.  Glass is 700 degrees.  Interior firebox temp is 930.  I’ve never registered temps that high since installing it in the fall.


I'm not sure I'd be comfortable packing insulation around and on top of the stove (it is outside the jacket), without getting the ok from the manufacturer.  I'd probably want at least a little air gap.  Might get too hot.

But, if the manufacturer says it's ok, it might really be great.

My insulation is touching the back, as there was no space for a gap.

Just don't want to melt the thing down, if you can help it.

This has been discussed before, I can't remember the specifics.


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## ColdNorCal (Feb 16, 2019)

You did good. Can deal with final touches later like you said.  Do you notice any improvements in heating?  Talk with SBI about packing around the stove and most importantly, what is the best way to monitor stove temps on their insert. And what temps is too hot, over firing.  If you never over fire the stove, no worries.  

Curious, how are you measuring inside stove temp?


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Feb 16, 2019)

ColdNorCal said:


> You did good. Can deal with final touches later like you said.  Do you notice any improvements in heating?  Talk with SBI about packing around the stove and most importantly, what is the best way to monitor stove temps on their insert. And what temps is too hot, over firing.  If you never over fire the stove, no worries.
> 
> Curious, how are you measuring inside stove temp?


Found 840°f is overfire in an old manual.  They don't publish the number anymore, to my knowledge.  Measured on the stove top right in front of the jacket, in the middle.  

I didn't install the surround, so it's easy access with a laser thermometer.  With the surround on, I'd measure as far back on the top middle as possible before hitting the surround.  At that spot, its considerably cooler than further back, so I'd leave a margin of error well below 840.  I'd probably try to keep it below 700.


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## Rickb (Feb 16, 2019)

Sounds like your finally getting good temps on the stove so your getting some smell from curing.  I still get it from mine if I forget to close it down soon enough and I hit a new high temp.


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## HomeinPA (Feb 16, 2019)

I don't think it's a big problem but you are aware that all you had to really do with the insulation was wedge enough around the liner and damper frame at the top of the firebox to firmly stay in  place....right? Stuffing it up the chimney and packing around the firebox is a bit of overkill but not necessarily bad though. I would definitely suggest checking with the stove mfg. to make sure that isn't an issue though.


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## Hogwildz (Feb 16, 2019)

You can use regular silicone around the perimeter of the block off plate. I myself would install a 2pc plate with the circle cut out to cover the square hole left around the liner penetration.

From what I have seen, unless I am missing something, your insert does not have a outer casing shell. If that is the case, packing Roxul against it on top side & back while will raise fire box temps, will also insulate & limit heat dispersion from the insert to the room/home. You want heat from the insert to heat the air around it to convect into the home. With a block off plate installed, there is no real reason to insulate the top of the insert at all. There is such a thing as too much of a good thing, and in your case I think you are going to limit heat from being transferred from the insert.

You may want to consider removing the second inner layer of the roxul all around the insert, at least the top and sides. You want it against the old firebox, but not against the insert .


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## ColdNorCal (Feb 16, 2019)

The exterior chimney is worth insulating given insulation is cheap, he is already their working on it and trying to get better insert stove performance.

Here is the diagram specs, albiet the Century specs, as CFM is now Century SBI. It looks jacketed.

http://sbiweb.blob.core.windows.net/media/1465/cb00019_cw2500.pdf


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## Sodbuster (Feb 16, 2019)

Hogwildz said:


> You can use regular silicone around the perimeter of the block off plate. I myself would install a 2pc plate with the circle cut out to cover the square hole left around the liner penetration.
> 
> From what I have seen, unless I am missing something, your insert does not have a outer casing shell. If that is the case, packing Roxul against it on top side & back while will raise fire box temps, will also insulate & limit heat dispersion from the insert to the room/home. You want heat from the insert to heat the air around it to convect into the home. With a block off plate installed, there is no real reason to insulate the top of the insert at all. There is such a thing as too much of a good thing, and in your case I think you are going to limit heat from being transferred from the insert.
> 
> You may want to consider removing the second inner layer of the roxul all around the insert, at least the top and sides. You want it against the old firebox, but not against the insert .



Personally I think you'll notice a huge difference in heat output now that your not putting all your heat up the chimney. I've owned two inserts in my life a Lopi Liberty and a Quadrafire 5100, both of them would run us out of a 3000 sf house. Much of it has to do with house design. Best of luck.


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## Hogwildz (Feb 17, 2019)

Sodbuster said:


> Personally I think you'll notice a huge difference in heat output now that your not putting all your heat up the chimney. I've owned two inserts in my life a Lopi Liberty and a Quadrafire 5100, both of them would run us out of a 3000 sf house. Much of it has to do with house design. Best of luck.


Block off plate is always a must in my opinion. His manual even advises on a block off plate. And surprisingly, they do advise you can just basically stuff Roxul up there, but it does note that a plate is more superior. Kudos to them for giving good info.


----------



## JMBoriss (Feb 17, 2019)

I have a laser thermometer so that’s where I’m getting the temps.  I just open the door and point it at the logs.  

Overall, It’s quite a difference for sure.  It’s 23 here right now and with my thermostat on the other side of the house it’s currently at 66 degrees.  The room that the fireplace is in is rather hot and walking towards the room you definitely feel the temp rise considerably. Better than before.  I may get a fan and blow the cold air from the other side of the house into the fireplace room.  I hear these stories of people get 75+ degree temps in their whole house when it’s -0 outside.  I’m still not there yet so a little disappointed.  I just think I need a bigger insert???  1.5 cu ft is tiny.  A guy buy me was selling a CW2900 but I was too late.  2.4 cu ft fire box is huge compared to what I have now!

Anyways. I removed the insulation from directly around the insert based on your comments so thank you all for the replies.  When I removed it it was very hot to the touch (fire was going) so hopefully the heat absorbed by the insulation will now come out past the shroud into the room?  Hopefully get some extra heat.


----------



## Hogwildz (Feb 17, 2019)

ColdNorCal said:


> The exterior chimney is worth insulating given insulation is cheap, he is already their working on it and trying to get better insert stove performance.
> 
> Here is the diagram specs, albiet the Century specs, as CFM is now Century SBI. It looks jacketed.
> 
> http://sbiweb.blob.core.windows.net/media/1465/cb00019_cw2500.pdf


Different design than what I am used to seeing. Looks like the jacket is part of the insert, rather than a separate shell attached but removable. Also looks like limited space between the jacket & the firebox, with some venting holes on each side. 

I like the way the Summit is set up as the outer casing has a few inches between it and the firebox, and with the vented corner plates on each side, additional heated air can convect from those.


----------



## Hogwildz (Feb 17, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> I have a laser thermometer so that’s where I’m getting the temps.  I just open the door and point it at the logs.
> 
> Overall, It’s quite a difference for sure.  It’s 23 here right now and with my thermostat on the other side of the house it’s currently at 66 degrees.  The room that the fireplace is in is rather hot and walking towards the room you definitely feel the temp rise considerably. Better than before.  I may get a fan and blow the cold air from the other side of the house into the fireplace room.  I hear these stories of people get 75+ degree temps in their whole house when it’s -0 outside.  I’m still not there yet so a little disappointed.  I just think I need a bigger insert???  1.5 cu ft is tiny.  A guy buy me was selling a CW2900 but I was too late.  2.4 cu ft fire box is huge compared to what I have now!
> 
> Anyways. I removed the insulation from directly around the insert based on your comments so thank you all for the replies.  When I removed it it was very hot to the touch (fire was going) so hopefully the heat absorbed by the insulation will now come out past the shroud into the room?  Hopefully get some extra heat.



Good to see you are getting some positive results. Most that have issues with cold drafts &/or lack of heated air coming from the firebox, first thing stated is no block off plate. Most that install the block off plate notice an immediate difference.

Sorry to say, your present 1.5 firebox is just not going to give you the results you seek. It would be great for a smaller house, with a better convection loop, but you do not have the luxury of that set up. You may also find if you get another insert with a larger firebox, it may help with the other side of the house some, but may also make the room it is in very warm to say the least. The next step would be to attempt to created some kind of convection loop as best as you can.

I personally keep my upstairs bedroom door closed, as I like to sleep in colder temps. It can easily be high 50s in there and I love it LOL. The minute I open the door in the morning and walk out to the loft I can feel the wall of warm air, that is nice too.

You're on the right path.


----------



## Sodbuster (Feb 17, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> I have a laser thermometer so that’s where I’m getting the temps.  I just open the door and point it at the logs.
> 
> Overall, It’s quite a difference for sure.  It’s 23 here right now and with my thermostat on the other side of the house it’s currently at 66 degrees.  The room that the fireplace is in is rather hot and walking towards the room you definitely feel the temp rise considerably. Better than before.  I may get a fan and blow the cold air from the other side of the house into the fireplace room.  I hear these stories of people get 75+ degree temps in their whole house when it’s -0 outside.  I’m still not there yet so a little disappointed.  I just think I need a bigger insert???  1.5 cu ft is tiny.  A guy buy me was selling a CW2900 but I was too late.  2.4 cu ft fire box is huge compared to what I have now!
> 
> Anyways. I removed the insulation from directly around the insert based on your comments so thank you all for the replies.  When I removed it it was very hot to the touch (fire was going) so hopefully the heat absorbed by the insulation will now come out past the shroud into the room?  Hopefully get some extra heat.




*I have a laser thermometer so that’s where I’m getting the temps. I just open the door and point it at the logs.*

You don't want to take your temps that way, you need to measure the top of the insert, not on the burning logs. Shoot for 500-600 degrees.


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## JMBoriss (Feb 17, 2019)

I’m going to get a fan with a stand today and put it on high where the bedrooms are at on the other side of the house where the bedrooms are.  Should I blow the air towards the fireplace room or towards the bedrooms?


----------



## maple1 (Feb 17, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> I’m going to get a fan with a stand today and put it on high where the bedrooms are at on the other side of the house where the bedrooms are.  Should I blow the air towards the fireplace room or towards the bedrooms?



Best potential for moving more air and heat around by using the fan on the floor & pushing cold air towards the stove.

Some would contend the difference would be negligible.


----------



## brenndatomu (Feb 17, 2019)

maple1 said:


> Best potential for moving more air and heat around by using the fan on the floor & pushing cold air towards the stove.
> 
> Some would contend the difference would be negligible.


Yes, many have experimented with this already and found that the best results come from a small fan, sitting on the floor, running on low, blowing air down the hallway (or wherever) back toward the stove. Doesn't take much air movement to do the job...the less "wind" you make, the less cold/drafty the house will feel. You just want to encourage the cold air toward the stove...then the warm air will come in to replace it...


----------



## brenndatomu (Feb 17, 2019)

You'll be amazed how little air you need to move to make this lil trick work...a tiny fan will do it


----------



## Highbeam (Feb 17, 2019)

Hogwildz said:


> Good to see you are getting some positive results. Most that have issues with cold drafts &/or lack of heated air coming from the firebox, first thing stated is no block off plate. Most that install the block off plate notice an immediate difference.
> 
> Sorry to say, your present 1.5 firebox is just not going to give you the results you seek. It would be great for a smaller house, with a better convection loop, but you do not have the luxury of that set up. You may also find if you get another insert with a larger firebox, it may help with the other side of the house some, but may also make the room it is in very warm to say the least. The next step would be to attempt to created some kind of convection loop as best as you can.
> 
> ...



Just read the whole thread and the only “ bk enthusiast” that came in was you hog! Twice you brought up the BK! You had more fun with the Woodstock gang.

I too call bs on the maximum output numbers put out by companies and/or the epa. I think the biggest trick is that they publish instantaneous “peak” output which is actually useless in this application. Firebox size, assuming reasonable efficiency, is far more useful.


----------



## JMBoriss (Feb 17, 2019)

Okay, the fan is in place.  Let's see if it helps!  Thanks everyone for the help.  I've been searching Craigslist and facebook classifieds within a 100 mile radius for a good used insert.  There's a used Pacific Energy Super Insert for sale about 1.5 hours from me (Cincinnati) for $500.  Seems like great quality but only a 2.1 cu ft fire box.  Is that a good deal or should I wait for the CW2900 or Osburn 2400?


----------



## brenndatomu (Feb 17, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> Okay, the fan is in place.  Let's see if it helps!  Thanks everyone for the help.  I've been searching Craigslist and facebook classifieds within a 100 mile radius for a good used insert.  There's a used Pacific Energy Super Insert for sale about 1.5 hours from me (Cincinnati) for $500.  Seems like great quality but only a 2.1 cu ft fire box.  Is that a good deal or should I wait for the CW2900 or Osburn 2400?


Don't forget the Drolet 1800i


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## brenndatomu (Feb 17, 2019)

brenndatomu said:


> Don't forget the Drolet 1800i


Watch for a good sale at Menards, you can get them under $1000...I've seen as low as $699  (once)


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## JMBoriss (Feb 17, 2019)

Sodbuster said:


> You don't want to take your temps that way, you need to measure the top of the insert, not on the burning logs. Shoot for 500-600 degrees.



Okay, so help me out here please.  When I take the surround off and point the reader in the middle of the top of the insert, It's about 200 degrees.  When I point it at the stainless steele 6" liner coming out the back of the insert it's about 220 degrees.  When I point it at the glass, I'm getting 450-500.  The insert has a front air control and we always keep that wide open except when we go to bed.  Is my stove running too cool?


----------



## JMBoriss (Feb 17, 2019)

brenndatomu said:


> Watch for a good sale at Menards, you can get them under $1000...I've seen as low as $699  (once)



Excellent, will do, thank you.  That 2.4 is .9 bigger than I have now!


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## EatenByLimestone (Feb 17, 2019)

The super is a great stove.   At least the free standing one is.   And the insert should have the same firebox.


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## Sodbuster (Feb 17, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> Okay, so help me out here please.  When I take the surround off and point the reader in the middle of the top of the insert, It's about 200 degrees.  When I point it at the stainless steele 6" liner coming out the back of the insert it's about 220 degrees.  When I point it at the glass, I'm getting 450-500.  The insert has a front air control and we always keep that wide open except when we go to bed.  Is my stove running too cool?



That's too cold; should be at minimum 400 degrees. I suspect your wood isn't as dry as you think. When you measure the moisture content, you need to split a log, then measure in the middle, is that what you are doing? When I had my inserts, I made the surround out of expanded metal, painted black, that way it didn't block any heat. Keeping your air control wide open may be contributing to your lack of heat, what happens if you try to shut down the air?


----------



## JMBoriss (Feb 17, 2019)

I just went out to the garage and split a piece of black walnut I've been using and it's 9% at the ends and 16% at the middle.  According to the manual, in order to get the highest BTU output, the air control needs to be all the way open.  I moved the air control to the middle and the temps went down by about 50 degrees.  This is where I get confused with inserts vs stoves.  My insert has an air jacket all the way around it.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Feb 17, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> I just went out to the garage and split a piece of black walnut I've been using and it's 9% at the ends and 16% at the middle.  According to the manual, in order to get the highest BTU output, the air control needs to be all the way open.  I moved the air control to the middle and the temps went down by about 50 degrees.  This is where I get confused with inserts vs stoves.  My insert has an air jacket all the way around it.


Can you take a picture of the laserbeam on the stove when you are reading?


----------



## JMBoriss (Feb 17, 2019)




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## begreen (Feb 17, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> Excellent, will do, thank you.  That 2.4 is .9 bigger than I have now!


I think the actual usable area is a bit less. More like 2.0 cu ft. The PE Super you mentioned is also an excellent insert. As with anything used, look for any signs of abuse or overfiring.


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## begreen (Feb 17, 2019)

So readings off the glass are somewhat useless, same with the ashlip temp. Your surface flue temp is ok, it will be about 500º inside the flue. The top of the insert temps may be low because there is a convective top over the actual stove top. Is there a blower air exit slot just under the top? The door temp be ok to read. Or on the face of the stove just above the door corners.


----------



## ColdNorCal (Feb 17, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> I just went out to the garage and split a piece of black walnut I've been using and it's 9% at the ends and 16% at the middle.  According to the manual, in order to get the highest BTU output, the air control needs to be all the way open.  I moved the air control to the middle and the temps went down by about 50 degrees.  This is where I get confused with inserts vs stoves.  My insert has an air jacket all the way around it.



The method of operation is the same with your stove insert and a free standing stove with the same type of air adjustments. The method of measuring stove temps is different because your insert has a jacket and you can not measure the flu pipe 18"s above stove top.

How tall is your liner/chimney measured from top of stove to rain cap?  Top of stove is how Drolet measures with a 12' min height.

400+ on the door seems about right as the actual stove top, underneath the jacketed shell, would be more then that.

Do you see smoke coming out the chimney cap? If at good temp, no smoke should be visible.

Drolet support is very good. Call them for suggestions.




Highbeam said:


> Just read the whole thread and the only “ bk enthusiast” that came in was you hog! Twice you brought up the BK! You had more fun with the Woodstock gang, or at least the ones remaining since the exodus.
> 
> I too call bs on the maximum output numbers put out by companies and/or the epa. I think the biggest trick is that they publish instantaneous “peak” output which is actually useless in this application. Firebox size, assuming reasonable efficiency, is far more useful.



Much respect to Hog for his non-cult like attitude.


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## brenndatomu (Feb 17, 2019)

Pic 1, on the surround plate means nothing for the firebox temp.
Pic 3 is on the air jacket, doesn't mean much for the fire either.
The last one same.
With most inserts its really hard to get a good STT reading, and even more so with that particular model, with the way the air jacket is made.

Running the air completely open makes the most heat, for a bit. But you are sending a ton of BTUs up the stack doing that...and the fire doesn't last near as long either. 
Funny thing about these newer EPA (tube type) fireboxes, they can and will run almost as high STT with the air turned down (once the firebox is up to full temp and the secondary burn is well established) as it will with the air open.
Try turning the air down 25% once the fire is going good...then let it recover, do another 25%, recover. Do it again. Generally you should be able to run somewhere between 25% and closed if you have good dry wood and the weather is cold enough to have good draft.
Oh, and the operation of an insert and a free standing stove is the same...some inserts may have a manual blower switch that needs turned on/off, which is pretty much a necessity on to get any real heat from an insert, but optional on free standers.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Feb 17, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> View attachment 241028
> View attachment 241029
> View attachment 241030
> View attachment 241031
> ...


Great pictures.  Very informative.


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## JMBoriss (Feb 17, 2019)

begreen said:


> Is there a blower air exit slot just under the top? The door temp be ok to read. Or on the face of the stove just above the door corners.


Yes, the blower air exit is just under the top and we always have it going full high.  It was on high when taking the picture temps. 



brenndatomu said:


> Funny thing about these newer EPA (tube type) fireboxes, they can and will run almost as high STT with the air turned down (once the firebox is up to full temp and the secondary burn is well established) as it will with the air open.
> Try turning the air down 25% once the fire is going good...then let it recover, do another 25%, recover. Do it again. Generally you should be able to run somewhere between 25% and closed if you have good dry wood and the weather is cold enough to have good draft.
> Oh, and the operation of an insert and a free standing stove is the same...some inserts may have a manual blower switch that needs turned on/off, which is pretty much a necessity on to get any real heat from an insert, but optional on free standers.



This is excellent information, thank you.  I'll try this right now.  Thank you. 

As far as the chimney height measurement, I'd need to go measure it.  We just have a single story ranch I want to say around 16 foot?

Also, the only time we see or smell smoke coming out from the chimney is when we just start it up or put more wood in.


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## ColdNorCal (Feb 17, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> Yes, the blower air exit is just under the top and we always have it going full high.  It was on high when taking the picture temps.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Looks like youre good to go.  Try adjusting the air control as others explained. If your wood is dry, you should be able to keep high temps with air control low.


----------



## JMBoriss (Feb 17, 2019)

ColdNorCal said:


> Looks like youre good to go.  Try adjusting the air control as others explained. If your wood is dry, you should be able to keep high temps with air control low.



It's at 25% open right now and seem to be going somewhat strong, not as with it all the way open, a lot less flames.  So when I need to put in more wood, do I open the air control back up or just leave it as is and just throw more wood in there?


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## brenndatomu (Feb 17, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> It's at 25% open right now and seem to be going somewhat strong, not as with it all the way open, a lot less flames.  So when I need to put in more wood, do I open the air control back up or just leave it as is and just throw more wood in there?


Modern stoves are meant to be batch burners...so you let the current load burn down to coals, rake them to the front, reload, open air back up, let the fire establish well, then start cutting the air back...rinse and repeat as needed...


----------



## begreen (Feb 17, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> Yes, the blower air exit is just under the top and we always have it going full high. It was on high when taking the picture temps.


OK, that explains the low top temp. On some stoves one can angle in the laser to point at the actual stove top. If you can do this, the temp should be taken with the blower off for a few minutes.


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## brenndatomu (Feb 17, 2019)

begreen said:


> OK, that explains the low top temp. On some stoves one can angle in the laser to point at the actual stove top. If you can do this, the temp should be taken with the blower off for a few minutes.


He should be able to kinda sorta get a reading of the stove top in that 1.5" to 2" gap above where the air control lever is...


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## JMBoriss (Feb 17, 2019)

brenndatomu said:


> He should be able to kinda sorta get a reading of the stove top in that 1.5" to 2" gap above where the air control lever is...



Very cool actually learning how all this works.  Much appreciate the help and knowledge given in my own thread, as opposed to digging through endless forum searches.  Thank you all.

With the air control 25% open with the blower off for 5 mins i got the laser temp in between at various locations and it was at most 410 degrees but really hovered around 380-390. 

With the air control all the way open with the blower off for 5 mins I was getting 550-580 on the bottom metal in the the air gap (stove top).


----------



## brenndatomu (Feb 17, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> Very cool actually learning how all this works.  Much appreciate the help and knowledge given in my own thread, as opposed to digging through endless forum searches.  Thank you all.
> 
> With the air control 25% open with the blower off for 5 mins i got the laser temp in between at various locations and it was at most 410 degrees but really hovered around 380-390.
> 
> With the air control all the way open with the blower off for 5 mins I was getting 550-580 on the bottom metal in the the air gap (stove top).


Here's some more FYI for using that IR gun...
https://blog.thermoworks.com/thermometer/how-to-use-an-infrared-thermometer/


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## Sodbuster (Feb 17, 2019)

I think you are fighting a losing battle for a home your size. According to the owners manual for your stove low burn only puts out 9600 btu's per factory tests. That's like trying to heat your house with a space heater. High burn is only 58,000 btu's and still not enough for your home. You need an insert with a much larger firebox. Burning on high output is going to take a lot more wood, than a larger stove on low burn. Right now my PE Summit is loaded with Hickory on low burn and the stove top temps are between 480-550 at different points on the stove top.


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## Hogwildz (Feb 17, 2019)

After the load get fired up good with air wide open, you want to turn the air down as low as possible without causing the load to smoulder. A drop rather than rise in stove temp is the indicator here, not so much flames. You will get good secondaries at the beginning, but even when they die down or slow, the stove will steady or continue to raise in temp. Leaving wide open will get the firebox hot, but it will also let a boatload of heat up and out the stack. Not good.


----------



## Sodbuster (Feb 17, 2019)

One question I have that I don't think has been asked, are you loading your stove full when starting a fresh load, or just throwing in a few pieces? My stove with my splits likes to be filled up, with as few air gaps as possible. Also have you tried comparing loading N/S (logs put in end first) vs E/W (logs put in with the ends facing the side of the stove)?


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## JMBoriss (Feb 18, 2019)

Sodbuster said:


> One question I have that I don't think has been asked, are you loading your stove full when starting a fresh load, or just throwing in a few pieces? My stove with my splits likes to be filled up, with as few air gaps as possible. Also have you tried comparing loading N/S (logs put in end first) vs E/W (logs put in with the ends facing the side of the stove)?



When I start a fresh load, I usually have enough for 1 large or 2 small logs along with my kindling, and if there's no air under the logs, it won't ignite.  The firebox is tiny, 1.5. and it's rectangle shaped so only loading long ways.  In order to load the other way my logs would have to be less than 12 inches, I try to cut them between 16 and 18.  Yeah, time to get a bigger insert.  

I did however, before bed around 11pm last night, move the air control slowing down to 25% open and while it does not appear to put out as much heat, I had a nice bed of hot red coals when I got up and 6:30am this morning, put a 16" piece of black walnut in and it relit instantly, so that's a win.  I was usually getting like 3 hour burn times and waking up to a completely cold stove, no red hot coals, only cold ash, having to completely relight from scratch every morning.  That was getting taxing.    

I have a Nest thermostat and the furnace didn't kick on from 1pm to midnight.  With the aircontrol down 75% (25% open) I'm anxious to see what it did all night, past midnight.  My nest readings are a day behind, so I'll see the info from today 12am to current tomorrow.  Hopefully it didn't run all night


----------



## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Feb 18, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> When I start a fresh load, I usually have enough for 1 large or 2 small logs along with my kindling, and if there's no air under the logs, it won't ignite.  The firebox is tiny, 1.5. and it's rectangle shaped so only loading long ways.  In order to load the other way my logs would have to be less than 12 inches, I try to cut them between 16 and 18.  Yeah, time to get a bigger insert.
> 
> I did however, before bed around 11pm last night, move the air control slowing down to 25% open and while it does not appear to put out as much heat, I had a nice bed of hot red coals when I got up and 6:30am this morning, put a 16" piece of black walnut in and it relit instantly, so that's a win.  I was usually getting like 3 hour burn times and waking up to a completely cold stove, no red hot coals, only cold ash, having to completely relight from scratch every morning.  That was getting taxing.
> 
> I have a Nest thermostat and the furnace didn't kick on from 1pm to midnight.  With the aircontrol down 75% (25% open) I'm anxious to see what it did all night, past midnight.  My nest readings are a day behind, so I'll see the info from today 12am to current tomorrow.  Hopefully it didn't run all night


Being able to load longer pieces n-s is really a game changer.  My SBI stove will take standard 16" pieces n-s, and it really takes much more wood than e-w loads at 20".

That said, 15.5" is better for the Drolet, n-s.  Just want a little margin of error with a hot stove.  What's half an inch among friends, anyway.


----------



## RandyBoBandy (Feb 18, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> Okay, so help me out here please.  When I take the surround off and point the reader in the middle of the top of the insert, It's about 200 degrees.  When I point it at the stainless steele 6" liner coming out the back of the insert it's about 220 degrees.  When I point it at the glass, I'm getting 450-500.  The insert has a front air control and we always keep that wide open except when we go to bed.  Is my stove running too cool?





Highbeam said:


> Just read the whole thread and the only “ bk enthusiast” that came in was you hog! Twice you brought up the BK! You had more fun with the Woodstock gang, or at least the ones remaining since the exodus.
> 
> I too call bs on the maximum output numbers put out by companies and/or the epa. I think the biggest trick is that they publish instantaneous “peak” output which is actually useless in this application. Firebox size, assuming reasonable efficiency, is far more useful.


What did I miss with Woodstock? What exodus?


----------



## JMBoriss (Feb 18, 2019)

RandyBoBandy said:


> What did I miss with Woodstock? What exodus?



I used to live on Garfield Dr. in Whitmore Lake, Michigan.


----------



## JMBoriss (Feb 19, 2019)

What do you think about the Regency I3000L?  There's one by me for $1500 new someone is selling.  2.9 cu ft firebox.


----------



## brenndatomu (Feb 19, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> What do you think about the Regency I3000L?  There's one by me for $1500 new someone is selling.  2.9 cu ft firebox.


Regency is a decent brand...I don't know much about that particular model personally...


----------



## moresnow (Feb 19, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> What do you think about the Regency I3000L?  There's one by me for $1500 new someone is selling.  2.9 cu ft firebox.



@bholler will likely be able to advise on that model.


----------



## begreen (Feb 19, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> What do you think about the Regency I3000L?  There's one by me for $1500 new someone is selling.  2.9 cu ft firebox.


That's a good price if new. It's a decent big heater, conventional tube design. It works with a 6" liner. This is an E/W loader, the firebox is shallow and wide (22" x 9"?). The insert projects out onto the hearth so you will probably have to add an extension. The benefit of this projection is that it heats better during power outages. Measure the fireplace and be sure it will fit and check clearances requirements too.


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## HomeinPA (Feb 19, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> What do you think about the Regency I3000L?  There's one by me for $1500 new someone is selling.  2.9 cu ft firebox.


From the face of the fireplace the ash lip in front of the stove is basically 10.5" on the hearth. You need another 16" in front  of that. I'd look on the data plate which is under the blower in front and get the serial number to verify the manufacture date but 1500 bucks is a steal if it's new. Retail on those is over 3k plus installation.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Feb 19, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> What do you think about the Regency I3000L?  There's one by me for $1500 new someone is selling.  2.9 cu ft firebox.


9" deep?  Forget it.


----------



## bholler (Feb 19, 2019)

Is it a 3000 or a 3100?


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## ColdNorCal (Feb 19, 2019)

Looking in the manual it does appear to short in depth. I'd also pass....

https://assets.regency-fire.com/get...8b-5ddcab4e3bc7/I3100-Manual-English-(1).aspx


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## weatherguy (Feb 19, 2019)

If your woods not cut to maximize the size of the firebox you wont be able to take advantage if the bigger box. For that price I'd but it anyway, just cut your wood to fit in the future.


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## begreen (Feb 19, 2019)

There maybe a bit more room in front of the firebrick. 9" is just by the firebrick pattern. That is a good price, not much more than stoves 1/3d smaller and the stove by past reports heats even larger spaces quite well. IIRC about the only issue that has come up has been with the deflector. This got replaced with a better part a few years back. @bholler would know more. He cleans several of them.


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## bholler (Feb 19, 2019)

begreen said:


> There maybe a bit more room in front of the firebrick. 9" is just by the firebrick pattern. That is a good price, not much more than stoves 1/3d smaller and the stove by past reports heats even larger spaces quite well. IIRC about the only issue that has come up has been with the deflector. This got replaced with a better part a few years back. @bholler would know more. He cleans several of them.


The 3100 is much more than 9" deep.  It is about 18" deep.  I cut to about 16 to load no.  If it is actually an old 3000 I don't remember that one for sure but it is about the same size I believe


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## begreen (Feb 19, 2019)

I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time. The i3100 is only about 16" deep behind the surround and that includes the convection jacket. Here's the firebrick pattern. It shows only one brick deep. I have only seen one of these on the store floor and that was years ago. Is there a large area in front of the firebrick?


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## bholler (Feb 19, 2019)

begreen said:


> I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time. The i3100 is only about 16" deep behind the surround and that includes the convection jacket. Here's the firebrick pattern. It shows only one brick deep. I have only seen one of these on the store floor and that was years ago. Is there a large area in front of the firebrick?
> 
> View attachment 241125
> View attachment 241126


There is a pretty wide metal section in the back on the floor behind those brick that the secondary air comes through to be preheated.  And a bit in the front as well


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## 2fireplacesinSC (Feb 19, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> What do you think about the Regency I3000L?  There's one by me for $1500 new someone is selling.  2.9 cu ft firebox.



I think the 3000 is 2.3 cu ft.  

The 3100 is 2.9 cu ft. 

At least if I read the regency web site correctly.


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## HomeinPA (Feb 19, 2019)

begreen said:


> There maybe a bit more room in front of the firebrick. 9" is just by the firebrick pattern. That is a good price, not much more than stoves 1/3d smaller and the stove by past reports heats even larger spaces quite well. IIRC about the only issue that has come up has been with the deflector. This got replaced with a better part a few years back. @bholler would know more. He cleans several of them.


That deflector has been replaced with a removable/replaceable heat deflector.


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## JMBoriss (Feb 20, 2019)

It was the 3100L, the bigger one with the 2.9 cu ft box.  It ended up being sold.  I'm still looking for something bigger!  I tried the convection loop and it definitely helps however by the time the heat in the fireplace room is evenly distributed throughout the 2600 sq ft house it's turns out the whole house are 65, as opposed to the fireplace room being 85 and the bedrooms 58.


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## begreen (Feb 20, 2019)

If it will fit, the Osburn 2400 may be the most affordable large insert.
https://www.osburn-mfg.com/en/products/wood-inserts/osburn-2400-wood-insert/


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## My_3_Girls (Feb 20, 2019)

Haven't seen it mentioned yet, but with my Kennebec, it likes small splits. I had similar problems with less than ideal wood, as well as rounds, and as soon as I quartered even a 5" round, no issues whatsoever.  Secondaries like it a lot.  Other than start up, my air is closed completely (as possible), until I'm ready to reload.  
And knock it off with all the fancy insulation pics, you're making me look bad! I'm in the 'stuff as much Roxul up the chimney as it will take, and call it good'


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## JMBoriss (Feb 20, 2019)

begreen said:


> If it will fit, the Osburn 2400 may be the most affordable large insert.
> https://www.osburn-mfg.com/en/products/wood-inserts/osburn-2400-wood-insert/



Yes, I'm looking at that one, the CW2900 and the Drolet 1800i.  The 2400 being the most expensive.  My wife is not on board with spending anymore money on heating with wood so I'm searching every day for a good used one for around $500. 

When looking at a used insert, any recommendation on what to look for?  I understand firebricks, glass, gaskets etc. can be replaced and I've done that before what specifically the casing etc.


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## ColdNorCal (Feb 20, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> Yes, I'm looking at that one, the CW2900 and the Drolet 1800i.  The 2400 being the most expensive.  My wife is not on board with spending anymore money on heating with wood so I'm searching every day for a good used one for around $500.
> 
> When looking at a used insert, any recommendation on what to look for?  I understand firebricks, glass, gaskets etc. can be replaced and I've done that before what specifically the casing etc.



$500 for a decent stove in this area will take a long time, if ever. Especially if you have very specific requirements. I looked at a couple used stoves on cl that seemed like good prospects. After that I decided it was not worth wasting anymore time on. Maybe you will be luckier. Try to get as many pics as possible. Look for bent or warped burn tubes, warped or broken baffle, warped door, warped box, warped air wash deflector that sits above the door, cracks, broken welds/seems, fan works, lots of rust....  Ah, forget it and buy new


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## cromoth (Feb 20, 2019)

I use a Dutchwest 2500x02 insert with blower that looks exactly like yours. Manual says 58000 Btu is max. It was installed with 6" pipe & blocking plate, orange caulking in gaps. I'm very confident in it as a supplemental heat source; reducing the natural gas boiler demand. You're missing a blocker plate & orange caulking which should be within arms reach of your insert.

I think you have a home insulation problem, including air leaks. If windows were not installed with foam insulation before the trim went on & similar; much of your heat & cooling goes outside. You then need an oversized heater/cooler without fixing the losses. Check with your local utilities for home efficiency audit. This should include a blower door test for air leaks. Next, they recommend how to fix what problems they found & pay for most of the cost. Our program covered 80% of the cost of 39 cans of air sealant, cellulose insulation for garage ceiling & attic.

At the same time, get a pallet of wood bricks to take your wood quality out of consideration. Wood moisture meter should be used on a fresh split of wood. Take what you've seasoned, split it again, adjust meter for wood species, then measure.

Consider fans to move the heat around, a brush & extension poles to keep the 6" clean, then maybe a humidifier.

After all this, I'd spend money on a bigger insert, which could require a 8" pipe.


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## brenndatomu (Feb 20, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> I tried the convection loop and it definitely helps however by the time the heat in the fireplace room is evenly distributed throughout the 2600 sq ft house it's turns out the whole house are 65, as opposed to the fireplace room being 85 and the bedrooms 58.


If you left your furnace on, the wood stove would probably carry 75% of the houses heating load, or more, no? Over the course of the average winter, maybe more like 90% if you include the warmer days where the furnace never runs?
Or are you trying to go 100% wood heat?


----------



## begreen (Feb 20, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> Yes, I'm looking at that one, the CW2900 and the Drolet 1800i.  The 2400 being the most expensive.  My wife is not on board with spending anymore money on heating with wood so I'm searching every day for a good used one for around $500.
> 
> When looking at a used insert, any recommendation on what to look for?  I understand firebricks, glass, gaskets etc. can be replaced and I've done that before what specifically the casing etc.


The 2400 is a third larger in real world capacity and can be loaded N/S. If the goal is to mostly heat with wood, go large. For inserts with a 6" flue collar that would be ~3.0 cu ft inserts made by Osburn (or Enerzone), Pacific Energy, Regency, Lopi (or Avalon), BK, Quadrafire.


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## Woody Stover (Feb 20, 2019)

maple1 said:


> Firebox size isn't a measure of btu/hr output. It's just the size of the fuel tank - or total btu capacity. Not all stoves can burn that load at the same rate or put all that heat output into the house.


Right. High BTU/hr ratings just indicate how fast you can burn through a load, but the best heat extraction occurs at low burn rates. High burns send heat up the flue.





Hogwildz said:


> Or was it a US stove, or other subpar insert?


It's said that higher-priced inserts extract heat better, but I'm not sure how that works. At any rate, I would buy a higher-quality unit rather than buying a cheapie and getting low resale value. Not to mention that higher-priced units generally give you less problems. You have to also decide what features of a stove are worth to you, such as ash-handling etc.
Come up with the money somehow, you won't regret it.


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## RandyBoBandy (Feb 20, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> I used to live on Garfield Dr. in Whitmore Lake, Michigan.


No kidding?  So did I for a few years. I’m now over by independence lake.


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## JMBoriss (Feb 21, 2019)

RandyBoBandy said:


> No kidding?  So did I for a few years. I’m now over by independence lake.



Yes, I lived there for about 3 years 8900 Garfield Dr. from 2005-2008.  I used to live in Brighton, then moved to New Hudson then ultimately Ypsilanti Township, south of 94 until I moved back to Indiana in 2016.  I worked at Beaumont Hospital for years.  I'm originally from Columbus Indiana so moved back home in 2016.  Small world, I miss the cold and snow of Michigan!  In Indiana it gets cold, but not as much snow. 

The goal is tocompletely heat my house with wood.  Keep the thermostat at 65 then rarely have it turn on as long as someone is maintaining the insert.  We actually did have a energy efficiency company come out and assess our house.  The only thing they advised was adding another 12 inches of blown in insulation in the attic and suggesting caulking around the exterior of the house/windows are it's starting to deteriorate.  I plan on painting the house this summer anyways so I'll do that.  Our windows are fine they said.  They're the original Anderson ones from 1994 when the house was built so I guess they're good quality.

So I found an Osburn 2400 for sale, person is asking $500 firm I'm picking up next Sunday.  It was made in 10/2009 she said.  Has the blower and faceplate, everything.  I wanted to pick it up this weekend but she's not available but she said she would save it for me.  I'm super excited.  It's about a 10 hour round trip but I'll be taking my 6 year old son and my dad in my truck so it should be a fun time.  I assume that date of manufacture is just as good as the newer ones?


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## brenndatomu (Feb 21, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> So I found an Osburn 2400 for sale, person is asking $500 firm I'm picking up next Sunday.





JMBoriss said:


> It's about a 10 hour round trip but I'll be taking my 6 year old son and my dad in my truck so it should be a fun time.


Cool!
Meh...I did a 16 hour round trip to pick up my Kuuma furnace, so...ROADTRIP!


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## ColdNorCal (Feb 21, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> Yes, I lived there for about 3 years 8900 Garfield Dr. from 2005-2008.  I used to live in Brighton, then moved to New Hudson then ultimately Ypsilanti Township, south of 94 until I moved back to Indiana in 2016.  I worked at Beaumont Hospital for years.  I'm originally from Columbus Indiana so moved back home in 2016.  Small world, I miss the cold and snow of Michigan!  In Indiana it gets cold, but not as much snow.
> 
> The goal is tocompletely heat my house with wood.  Keep the thermostat at 65 then rarely have it turn on as long as someone is maintaining the insert.  We actually did have a energy efficiency company come out and assess our house.  The only thing they advised was adding another 12 inches of blown in insulation in the attic and suggesting caulking around the exterior of the house/windows are it's starting to deteriorate.  I plan on painting the house this summer anyways so I'll do that.  Our windows are fine they said.  They're the original Anderson ones from 1994 when the house was built so I guess they're good quality.
> 
> So I found an Osburn 2400 for sale, person is asking $500 firm I'm picking up next Sunday.  It was made in 10/2009 she said.  Has the blower and faceplate, everything.  I wanted to pick it up this weekend but she's not available but she said she would save it for me.  I'm super excited.  It's about a 10 hour round trip but I'll be taking my 6 year old son and my dad in my truck so it should be a fun time.  I assume that date of manufacture is just as good as the newer ones?



Get a lot of pics before the trip and post if you like.


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## RandyBoBandy (Feb 21, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> Yes, I lived there for about 3 years 8900 Garfield Dr. from 2005-2008.  I used to live in Brighton, then moved to New Hudson then ultimately Ypsilanti Township, south of 94 until I moved back to Indiana in 2016.  I worked at Beaumont Hospital for years.  I'm originally from Columbus Indiana so moved back home in 2016.  Small world, I miss the cold and snow of Michigan!  In Indiana it gets cold, but not as much snow.
> 
> The goal is tocompletely heat my house with wood.  Keep the thermostat at 65 then rarely have it turn on as long as someone is maintaining the insert.  We actually did have a energy efficiency company come out and assess our house.  The only thing they advised was adding another 12 inches of blown in insulation in the attic and suggesting caulking around the exterior of the house/windows are it's starting to deteriorate.  I plan on painting the house this summer anyways so I'll do that.  Our windows are fine they said.  They're the original Anderson ones from 1994 when the house was built so I guess they're good quality.
> 
> So I found an Osburn 2400 for sale, person is asking $500 firm I'm picking up next Sunday.  It was made in 10/2009 she said.  Has the blower and faceplate, everything.  I wanted to pick it up this weekend but she's not available but she said she would save it for me.  I'm super excited.  It's about a 10 hour round trip but I'll be taking my 6 year old son and my dad in my truck so it should be a fun time.  I assume that date of manufacture is just as good as the newer ones?


I lived on Garfield from 09-11. I grew up in New Hudson. Lived in a few different places in Ypsilanti while kind of going to eastern university. My parents now live in Brighton. Small world indeed. Hope your road trip is a success. Happy burning.


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## 2fireplacesinSC (Feb 21, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> Yes, I lived there for about 3 years 8900 Garfield Dr. from 2005-2008.  I used to live in Brighton, then moved to New Hudson then ultimately Ypsilanti Township, south of 94 until I moved back to Indiana in 2016.  I worked at Beaumont Hospital for years.  I'm originally from Columbus Indiana so moved back home in 2016.  Small world, I miss the cold and snow of Michigan!  In Indiana it gets cold, but not as much snow.
> 
> The goal is tocompletely heat my house with wood.  Keep the thermostat at 65 then rarely have it turn on as long as someone is maintaining the insert.  We actually did have a energy efficiency company come out and assess our house.  The only thing they advised was adding another 12 inches of blown in insulation in the attic and suggesting caulking around the exterior of the house/windows are it's starting to deteriorate.  I plan on painting the house this summer anyways so I'll do that.  Our windows are fine they said.  They're the original Anderson ones from 1994 when the house was built so I guess they're good quality.
> 
> So I found an Osburn 2400 for sale, person is asking $500 firm I'm picking up next Sunday.  It was made in 10/2009 she said.  Has the blower and faceplate, everything.  I wanted to pick it up this weekend but she's not available but she said she would save it for me.  I'm super excited.  It's about a 10 hour round trip but I'll be taking my 6 year old son and my dad in my truck so it should be a fun time.  I assume that date of manufacture is just as good as the newer ones?



Try to get lots of pics before that kind of drive.

How are you going to move it?


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## JMBoriss (Feb 21, 2019)

2fireplacesinSC said:


> Try to get lots of pics before that kind of drive.
> 
> How are you going to move it?



I've got a truck and 1000lb mover's dolly and ramps.  Maybe I'll ask my father in law if I can borrow his engine hoist.  I moved my 2500 which weights about 300 lbs by myself just with that dolly and 2x6s off and on the truck bed.  Looks like the Osburn 2400 weights about 550 lbs.  My father is coming with me to pick it up so I'm confident we should be good.  I'll just bring moving blankets, tarps, tie downs etc. . .I've ask the seller for a lot of pictures, haven't gotten any yet.  I'll definitely post when I get them.


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## brenndatomu (Feb 21, 2019)

Find out the lay of the land that you will need to deal with at the sellers place. That will enable you to formulate a plan and make sure you have the tools and materials with you that you need to load/haul this beast with no problems. 
I have loaded/hauled and installed/removed a whole list of 500# (*+*) wood stoves and furnaces, mainly by myself...not by working hard, but by working smart. Wheels are always good, whether they are on a cart, or something as simple as a couple pieces of pipe to roll on. Prybars or 2x4s used as levers to lift in conjunction with a stack of wood blocks, one block at a time, will allow you to lower/lift easily (albeit slowly) And when you can make it work, lift just one side at a time.
Removing weight, such as the door and firebricks is always a huge help too!
Take your time, think it through, be careful...you got this!


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## maple1 (Feb 22, 2019)

This time of the year I would be thinking sled. Get a sheet of good plywood under it with some holes in it to tie ropes to, and you should be able to pull it almost anywhere. Even right up a ramp or some planks onto a trailer or truck.

(Yes strip it down as much as possible).

Assuming you're frozen & snowy like I am....


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## cromoth (Feb 22, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> ....  We actually did have a energy efficiency company come out and assess our house.  The only thing they advised was adding another 12 inches of blown in insulation in the attic and suggesting caulking ...



If they didn't do a blower door test, you need another audit. Here, attic insulation is paid for 100%. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## JMBoriss (Feb 22, 2019)

cromoth said:


> If they didn't do a blower door test, you need another audit. Here, attic insulation is paid for 100%.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk



No, they didn't do a blower door/vacuum test.  What do you mean attic insulation is paid for 100%?  I don't think Indiana has anything like that!

So I'm picking the insert up, not this Sunday, but the Sunday after next, per the seller's request.  In the meantime there's a hearthstone, cyldesdale in the other direction for $800.  It's been for sale for a couple of weeks.  I can't help but keep thinking the deal with  the Osburn 2400 won't work out since it's such a good deal and over a week until I can pick it up.   so still looking at other options, but I have hope. The seller will be sending me pictures this evening.  I'll post those when I get them.

Looks like the Clydesdale is 2.4 cu ft box.  Looks really high quality.  Soapstone seems pretty cool.


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## RandyBoBandy (Feb 22, 2019)

I’m not a pro who has ever experienced any soapstone stoves, however, from my countless hours of reading on this forum I believe soapstone has it own drawbacks. I will let someone else comment on this. I guessing though the better option is to hold out for the insert.


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## cromoth (Feb 23, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> No, they didn't do a blower door/vacuum test.  What do you mean attic insulation is paid for 100%?  I don't think Indiana has anything like that!
> ...



I mean the energy audit program pays for the insulation. You need to contact each utility company you use and ask.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## JMBoriss (Feb 23, 2019)

Okay so here's the only pictures I could get from the seller.  It also comes with the stainless steel pipe.  Don't need that but hopefully I can sell that and maybe recoop some of the costs?  Anyways, It definitely needs a new paint job and go through, which I would do anyways and probably new firebricks.  Seller said it has a date of 10/2009 and they purchased it in 2010 but has been in storage the last two years.  I'm going to download the manual and give it a read.  Anyways, super excited for next fall/winter.  Also pictured in the firewood I've been stocking up so far for next season.  Mostly ash, red maple, hackberry and some osage orange.  It should be seasoned by next season, hopefully.


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## 2fireplacesinSC (Feb 23, 2019)

I’d be leery of driving that far without pictures of the inside. At least open the door and let me see inside.


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## JMBoriss (Feb 23, 2019)

I'll ask her again to take pictures of the inside, makes total sense. 

So here's the other thing preparing for this 10+ round trip drive.  I've downloaded the manual and read through it.  My hearth comes out 14".  The insert's faceplate only allows the insert to go back 16.875" inches.  That will leave 6.25" sticking out onto the hearth, with another 4.875 inches for the blower assembly, leaving a little less than 3 inches between the end of the hearth and the blower assembly and 7.75inches between the end of the hearth and door/box.  I guess I could always push it back as far as it can go into my fireplace and run it without the surround and/or fabricate an additional "tunnel" to bridge the gap between the blower air exit and surround?  Wife would not approve it in place without a surround.  She doesn’t prefer the look of roxul over the faceplate.  Figures I have a huge fireplace but tiny hearth!  My fireplace is 41" wide, 27" deep and 29" tall.  Or could I just buy a hearth extender type mat and just put it down in front of the hearth?


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## ColdNorCal (Feb 24, 2019)

I drove 90 mins one way to look at a used Regency insert. The few pics I got it looked good. Well, I did not buy it as the door was warped and the upper piece of metal on the inside for air wash, just above the door, was completely bowed in, almost in a half circle, and broken and separated in the middle. Also, not all the bricks were correct size/height and sit flush with each other or fit correctly.  At that point, I did not even bother to investigate the baffle, air tubes, welds...  However, the outside pics and the one pic of the inside with the door open looked good. 

Also, when I showed the seller what I had found and he realized I was not very interested, he lowered the price to only $400,  Started at $600 on cl, lowered to $500 on the phone call prior to seeing it. "For me", it still was not worth the risk, investment in time and parts, or the potential danger it could impose for being over fired and not properly maintained. 

Seriously, I hope you have better luck.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Feb 24, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> Okay so here's the only pictures I could get from the seller.  It also comes with the stainless steel pipe.  Don't need that but hopefully I can sell that and maybe recoop some of the costs?  Anyways, It definitely needs a new paint job and go through, which I would do anyways and probably new firebricks.  Seller said it has a date of 10/2009 and they purchased it in 2010 but has been in storage the last two years.  I'm going to download the manual and give it a read.  Anyways, super excited for next fall/winter.  Also pictured in the firewood I've been stocking up so far for next season.  Mostly ash, red maple, hackberry and some osage orange.  It should be seasoned by next season, hopefully.
> 
> View attachment 241338
> 
> ...




I think you should do the math on this one.  Driving 20 hours to pick up that busted up decade old stove is crazy talk!

How much does it cost per mile on your truck?  If it's 10 hours each way, let's say 1,000 miles round-trip.  Your truck costs at least $.50/mile (way low, but I'm making this simple).  So that's at least $500 in transportation costs.  Now you are up to $1000.  If I'm a little more honest about cost per mile, it's probably at least .$75/mile.  Trucks are expensive, and burn a lot of fuel.

Now there's your time.  20 hours on the road.  And after a few hours of quality family time, it's just gonna be shitty road time.   Plus, moving the stove will take a couple of hours.  Then you should probably find someplace to stay, for safety sake.  Hotel and meals out add to the cost.

Next, 20 hours on the road poses considerable risk to you, your son, and your father.  Plus the risk of something being wrong with the stove when you get there.

So, let's just say that you will save $1,000 on the stove.  It's 10 years old and a little busted up.  Could fail anytime, and no warranty.  Extra risk.

This is heating infrastructure, it's gonna cost something, and what you are thinking about doing really doesn't make sense.

Using all the information I've provided, order the stove online for free delivery, right to your house. Man up and tell your wife that is what's happening.  

https://www.woodlanddirect.com/Osbu...wCZd8iW0LKrmY-q76pq2xb6AKLKQbhphoCdowQAvD_BwE


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## maple1 (Feb 24, 2019)

ED 3000 said:


> I think you should do the math on this one.  Driving 20 hours to pick up that busted up decade old stove is crazy talk!
> 
> How much does it cost per mile on your truck?  If it's 10 hours each way, let's say 1,000 miles round-trip.  Your truck costs at least $.50/mile (way low, but I'm making this simple).  So that's at least $500 in transportation costs.  Now you are up to $1000.  If I'm a little more honest about cost per mile, it's probably at least .$75/mile.  Trucks are expensive, and burn a lot of fuel.
> 
> ...



10 hours round trip.

Still substantial though.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Feb 24, 2019)

maple1 said:


> 10 hours round trip.
> 
> Still substantial though.


Need more coffee this morning.

Thanks for the correction maple. 

Even without the previous intentional hyperbole, an extra grand (or $1500) on big heating infrastructure where the fuel can be free, is a small price to pay.  It's not like the stove is a toy or without huge utility.  I'm certain I've saved at least that much in natural gas cost in three years using the stove.

And I hate to see men getting pushed around by their wives like we see all the time here.  If the fire is the man's job, he should get the tools he needs (where reasonable).


----------



## spudman99 (Feb 24, 2019)

Dang.... Ed's feisty this morning.  Coffee and a Xanax perhaps. Musta stayed up late watching the hockey game... hehe      Just joking


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## begreen (Feb 24, 2019)

ED 3000 said:


> And I hate to see men getting pushed around by their wives like we see all the time here. If the fire is the man's job, he should get the tools he needs (where reasonable).


Well said until this sentence which is utter nonsense.


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## weatherguy (Feb 24, 2019)

spudman99 said:


> Dang.... Ed's feisty this morning.  Coffee and a Xanax perhaps. Musta stayed up late watching the hockey game... hehe      Just joking


I think he watching cavemen movies, 10,000 bc perhaps.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Feb 24, 2019)

begreen said:


> Well said until this sentence which is utter nonsense.


Well, I was mostly kidding.  And ,unmarried, so there's that...


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Feb 24, 2019)

weatherguy said:


> I think he watching cavemen movies, 10,000 bc perhaps.


I was careful with my words, I said "if" it's his job.  Nothing against sharing responsibility, or, better yet, delegating the whole thing, but that's a rarity.  Mom was the fire tender in my house growing up, Dad wanted almost nothing to do with it, so Mom got to pick the stove. And as soon as I could yield axe and saw, she had me supplying the fuel, but she did much of the stacking.

I suspected this would get some interesting reaction, but nothing chauvinist intended.


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## JMBoriss (Feb 24, 2019)

Well, I did man up and tell her I was driving 10 hours round trip to get it, which she still disagrees with.  It's my decision not to spend $2500+ on a new stove, we just plain out don't have the money for that.  Gas will be around $150 in my truck and it'll be a fun time with my son and dad.  I can probably sell the liner for something, hopefully to off set the gas and sell my old CW2500 for about $300, I think.  I get it and hear what you all are saying.  I've asked the seller for pictures of the inside, and more over all detailed pictures.

So the other more important thing I've been researching is this:

I've downloaded the Osburn 2400 manual and read through it. My hearth comes out 14". The insert's faceplate only allows the insert to go back 16.875" inches. That will leave 6.25" sticking out onto the hearth, with another 4.875 inches for the blower assembly.  This will leave a little less than 3 inches between the end of the hearth and the blower assembly and 7.75inches between the end of the hearth and door/box. I guess I could always push it back as far as it can go into my fireplace and run it without the surround and/or fabricate an additional "tunnel" to bridge the gap between the blower air exit and surround? Wife would not approve it in place without a surround. She doesn’t prefer the look of roxul over the faceplate. Figures I have a huge fireplace but tiny hearth! (story of my life, am I right guys?!?!!? jk) My fireplace is 41" wide, 27" deep and 29" tall. Or could I just buy a hearth extender type mat and just put it down in front of the hearth?


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Feb 24, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> Well, I did man up and tell her I was driving 10 hours round trip to get it, which she still disagrees with.  It's my decision not to spend $2500+ on a new stove, we just plain out don't have the money for that.  Gas will be around $150 in my truck and it'll be a fun time with my son and dad.  I can probably sell the liner for something, hopefully to off set the gas and sell my old CW2500 for about $300, I think.  I get it and hear what you all are saying.  I've asked the seller for pictures of the inside, and more over all detailed pictures.
> 
> So the other more important thing I've been researching is this:
> 
> I've downloaded the Osburn 2400 manual and read through it. My hearth comes out 14". The insert's faceplate only allows the insert to go back 16.875" inches. That will leave 6.25" sticking out onto the hearth, with another 4.875 inches for the blower assembly, leaving a little less than 3 inches between the end of the hearth and the blower assembly and 7.75inches between the end of the hearth and door/box. I guess I could always push it back as far as it can go into my fireplace and run it without the surround and/or fabricate an additional "tunnel" to bridge the gap between the blower air exit and surround? Wife would not approve it in place without a surround. She doesn’t prefer the look of roxul over the faceplate. Figures I have a huge fireplace but tiny hearth! My fireplace is 41" wide, 27" deep and 29" tall. Or could I just buy a hearth extender type mat and just put it down in front of the hearth?


Love your conviction!  I might feel the same way, if I was in your shoes.  And, while I'd chose something different, it's your money, time, effort, etc.  Good to stress test ones conviction from time to time.

I've a similar hearth situation as you.  I put down a peice of cement board and sheet of metal, for temporary.  Plans are to reframe the floor and make a permanent hearth in front to comply with the manual.  It's been over 3 years now.

I don't think the hearth extender mat gets you to the values the sbi manual requires.   But it will work if it's only temporary.


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## JMBoriss (Feb 24, 2019)

ED 3000 said:


> Love your conviction!  I might feel the same way, if I was in your shoes.  And, while I'd chose something different, it's your money, time, effort, etc.  Good to stress test ones conviction from time to time.
> 
> I've a similar hearth situation as you.  I put down a peice of cement board and sheet of metal, for temporary.  Plans are to reframe the floor and make a permanent hearth in front to comply with the manual.  It's been over 3 years now.
> 
> I don't think the hearth extender mat gets you to the values the sbi manual requires.   But it will work if it's only temporary.



Okay, yeah, honestly I don't think I'd ever spend the money to extend the hearth, my wife homeschools and I'm the bread winner and there's a list a mile long of other priorities I need to put our money to first.  Anyways, what kind of hearth extender to you have?  This is probably one area I don't want to go cheap one.  We just remodeled our house and spent a lot on our wood floors that go right up to the hearth.  No only do I not want to damage the floors, I ultimately don't want them to suddenly combust, as you can imagine!  I was looking at one 48"x18" for around $100.  

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00LNGIFZ2/?tag=hearthamazon-20

Even if I have to buy two and stack on top of each other, I'll do it!


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## Smoke Signals (Feb 24, 2019)

Is the CFM CW2500 the same as the Drolet with the same model #?


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## JMBoriss (Feb 24, 2019)

Smoke Signals said:


> Is the CFM CW2500 the same as the Drolet with the same model #?



Yes, and I've been told it's the same as the century CW2500 as well.  I guess from what these guys have told me SBI makes Century Heating, Drolet, Valcourt, Obsurn, Caddy and Enerzone.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Feb 24, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> Okay, yeah, honestly I don't think I'd ever spend the money to extend the hearth, my wife homeschools and I'm the bread winner and there's a list a mile long of other priorities I need to put our money to first.  Anyways, what kind of hearth extender to you have?  This is probably one area I don't want to go cheap one.  We just remodeled our house and spent a lot on our wood floors that go right up to the hearth.  No only do I not want to damage the floors, I ultimately don't want them to suddenly combust, as you can imagine!  I was looking at one 48"x18" for around $100.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00LNGIFZ2/?tag=hearthamazon-20
> 
> Even if I have to buy two and stack on top of each other, I'll do it!


Totally understand.

Those values in the manual are like Greek to me, but when I sat down and really applied myself, I saw that the only way I'd get there was to reframe the floor and pour a lightweight slab.  It's mostly because the stove is sitting right on floor level (like yours).  I'm no carpenter, and this is open heart surgery on the floor joists. I don't expect it to cost much, just the labor.

You'll need to hear from the experts on this one.  Two pads stacked on each other raises your hearth extension well above the existing hearth and the stove bottom, and I don't know if this is ok or not.  I do know I wouldn't like it.  Your danger going that route is the junction of the existing hearth and the extension.  If a hot coal gets to the wood floor, trouble could ensue.


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## JMBoriss (Feb 24, 2019)

So I got some pictures and talked to the guy selling it on the phone, he assured me there's no wrapped panels and it's never been over fired, he said it needs a good painting and cleaning and probably a couple of fire bricks.  His wife was the one I've been texting and sending pictures to me up until now.  They sound like a very sweet older couple.  He actually drove to PA to pick this up new in 2010 he said since they didn't sell these in his area back then.  Anyways, it looks like it needs a good sanding, cleaning and paint.  I may buy new secondary air tubes and top bricks.  Obviously new gaskets for door and glass.  Totally recondition it for next season.  I'd appreciate your thoughts.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Feb 25, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> So I got some pictures and talked to the guy selling it on the phone, he assured me there's no wrapped panels and it's never been over fired, he said it needs a good painting and cleaning and probably a couple of fire bricks.  His wife was the one I've been texting and sending pictures to me up until now.  They sound like a very sweet older couple.  He actually drove to PA to pick this up new in 2010 he said since they didn't sell these in his area back then.  Anyways, it looks like it needs a good sanding, cleaning and paint.  I may buy new secondary air tubes and top bricks.  Obviously new gaskets for door and glass.  Totally recondition it for next season.  I'd appreciate your thoughts.
> 
> View attachment 241390
> 
> ...


The tubes are $50- *each!*  Door gasket- $40, can of stove paint- $8.

Good plan, but don't replace the tubes unless they need it.  Which they probably don't.  Mine are thick stainless steel and I don't anticipate needing to change them for many years. Just take them out, give them a light sanding on the outside, run something through the inside (I use an oiled thin rag on a straightened coathanger), and reinstall.


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## JMBoriss (Feb 25, 2019)

ED 3000 said:


> The tubes are $50- *each!*  Door gasket- $40, can of stove paint- $8.
> 
> Good plan, but don't replace the tubes unless they need it.  Which they probably don't.  Mine are thick stainless steel and I don't anticipate needing to change them for many years. Just take them out, give them a light sanding on the outside, run something through the inside (I use an oiled thin rag on a straightened coathanger), and reinstall.



The tubes appear to be in good shape, I know when I redid my CW2500 I was impressed by how thick those were so I'm sure the 2400's will be just as, if not more thick.

Some questions:  Does anyone have a wood stove paint preference?  Do you prefer to spray it or paint/roll it on?  I know they sell quarts of that stuff.  How much do you think I should sell the liner for that came with the Osburn 2400?  I think I paid around $600 plus for mine new.   Not sure what the value of something like that is, used, if any.  Also, what do you think my CW2500 is worth?  I was planning on selling it for between $250-300.  It was completely gone through last season, new gaskets, paint, some firebricks etc. 

I think when installing the osburn 2400, I'm going to push it back as far as I can into the fireplace and where there's a gap between the blower air exit and faceplace I'm just going to create a little tunnel with sheet metal to bridge the gap.  That way I can keep as much of my hearth free as possible while taking advantage of the 27" depth fireplace I have.  I'll get a hearth extender as well.


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## Hogwildz (Feb 26, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> The tubes appear to be in good shape, I know when I redid my CW2500 I was impressed by how thick those were so I'm sure the 2400's will be just as, if not more thick.
> 
> Some questions:  Does anyone have a wood stove paint preference?  Do you prefer to spray it or paint/roll it on?  I know they sell quarts of that stuff.  How much do you think I should sell the liner for that came with the Osburn 2400?  I think I paid around $600 plus for mine new.   Not sure what the value of something like that is, used, if any.  Also, what do you think my CW2500 is worth?  I was planning on selling it for between $250-300.  It was completely gone through last season, new gaskets, paint, some firebricks etc.
> 
> I think when installing the osburn 2400, I'm going to push it back as far as I can into the fireplace and where there's a gap between the blower air exit and faceplace I'm just going to create a little tunnel with sheet metal to bridge the gap.  That way I can keep as much of my hearth free as possible while taking advantage of the 27" depth fireplace I have.  I'll get a hearth extender as well.


Stove Brite, you can use a wire wheel on a drill to clean the surface rust off. Do yourself a favor, and don't even contemplate rolling paint on. Use the Stove bright and apply in thin layers. You don't need a ton thick coat.
Figure 1/2 the cost of new for the liner, and your pricing seems fair on the old insert.
See if the newer bricks in the old insert will work in the new one. 
Don't bother painting the inside of the stove, it will burn off anyway.


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## JMBoriss (Mar 3, 2019)

Yesterday my dad and I drove down to pick up the Osburn 2400, about 9 hour round trip.  I used an engine hoist to load and unload it in the back of the truck.  This morning I cleaned out the insert and took the pictures.  

It'll definitely need to replace some parts but looks to be in great shape.  I would like to hear your thoughts.  In the spring/summer, I plan on taking it all apart completely getting rid of the rust and painting it with stove bright paint, and replacing all the gaskets for next season.  Looking forward to fall/winter already.

Glass and door in good shape, just needs a good cleaning and paint.





Secondary air tubes.  The middle one is a little bent, is that okay to use as it or should I buy a replacement?





Blanket weight and close up of air tubes:





The below was what was used for the top baffle "C-Cast Baffle".  Very light stuff, like a very light firebrick.  To replace these, I need two at $70 a piece.  I plan on replacing them but was wondering if anything else could be used that a little less expensive?





Top of insert:





Pieces pulled from the inside.  According to the manual some are for holding in the firebricks.  the other metals pieces were probably used to level the insert when it was in fireplace and just thrown in when removed, I can assume.





Blower.  It works and pushes a lot of air.  Looking forward to having a blower with a temp switch.





The back:





Side.  The air control is really hard to push in and out.  Should I just put some grease to lubricate the moving parts?










It's the bigger surround that Osburn sells so I lucked out.  Seller wasn't able to measure before so I was hoping it wasn't the smallest one as it wouldn't cover completely my fireplace opening, but thankfully this one does.





Manufactured 10/13/2009.  Newer than both my cars, and house.





Good firebricks vs. the cracked ones.  Do you recommend I buy new ones to replace the cracked ones or can I try and just fit them back together best I can?  If putting them back together should I use a bead of that cement fireblock caulk?





Pieces to hold up the top baffle:





Baffle insulation blanket, definitely needs to be replaced.  $28 part or can I just use a thin cut of roxul?





Air gap picture:





Door.  I think the seller used the wrong diameter gasket (too small) as the door doesn't completely seal that well.  either way I plan to replace it next season.










Inside firebox looking down:




In, looking to the left:


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## JMBoriss (Mar 3, 2019)

Up and to the right:





Up and to the left:





Top with baffle and air tubes removed:





In the firebox, looking up:






I'd love to hear your thoughts.


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## brenndatomu (Mar 3, 2019)

Wow, I'm a little surprised how much that thing looks like a larger version of my Drolet 1400i. I'd hafta look it up again, but I think this stove was manufactured within days of mine!
As for your questions...I'd get on fleabay (or wherever) and order ceramic insulation board, and blanket to replace your baffle materials...often times you can get enough to make 2, for half price...YMMV.
As for the firebrick...if you have some that are cracked, but still fit together tightly, and can be installed in a spot that ashes or gravity will hold things together with no issues, you could re-use some. That said, if you buy a box of bricks from the local big box, or TSC, they are only a 3-4 bucks each.
That center secondary tube doesn't look bad enough to replace to me...unless the baffle is not properly supported because if it, then maybe you can gently straighten it.
Once you get that all cleaned up, I'd put a couple heavy coats of rustoleum (or whatever) high temp paint inside that firebox...what is covered by firebrick, etc, will not burn off right away, the paint will help keep things from rusting over the summer months, when the humidity settles in there.
Congrats on a good deal and a successful trip!
Oh, and you might want to start a new thread about the new stove...and how it came to be.


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## 2fireplacesinSC (Mar 4, 2019)

JMBoriss said:


> Up and to the right:
> View attachment 241795
> 
> 
> ...



May be time for a new thread?


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## begreen (Mar 5, 2019)

Yes, closing this thread. Documentation duplicated here:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/new-to-me-2009-osburn-2400-insert-restoration.174754/


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