# Burning Wood Is More Expensive Than Gas!?!?!



## SufficientSelf.com (Nov 7, 2010)

Did that get your attention?  :D

Ok, what do y'all think about this:








I saw this sign at the wood stove store.  Basically if you have to buy wood at $300 a cord (which we may have to do) it is about TWICE as expensive as gas    And that doesn't even take into account stacking, hauling, moving firewood!!

If I don't buy pre-split and seasoned wood I may be able to get free rounds dropped off at the house, but I'll still have to rent a splitter, split, haul, etc. etc. etc.  If I only burn 1-2 cords a year is it worth it?   I always just expected wood would always be cheaper than heating with gas!!

My frugal foundation has been rocked to the CORE!   Should I abandon all my excitement for getting an NC-13 (which I thought would save me money) and just get a pretty free standing gas stove?

I bow before the hearth brothers and ask for your wisdom and guidance!


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## madrone (Nov 7, 2010)

If I had to buy wood at $300 a cord, I'd install a gas stove. Wood makes sense for me because it's free (short of the effort and chainsaw expenses.) I use my NG furnace during the Fall and Spring, and burn my scrounged free wood when it's coldest. I love wood heat, but economics has the final say in what's heating the house at any given moment.


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## SufficientSelf.com (Nov 7, 2010)

Ya, I'm seriously questioning life and all my decisions leading up to this point!   I mean, even if I get fantastic wood at 1/2 the going rate on craigslist ($300 a cord) I'm still breaking even with gas (based on the data above, if it is accurate).

I love fires, but I agree madrone... at the end of the day economics really carry a large part of the decision.  I was even willing to put in the effort to get free wood, split it, stack it, haul it into the house, deal with ashes, etc., but that was when I though gas was way more expensive than wood.  

It would be interesting to do a calculation on how long it takes me to split and stack a cord of wood (and renting a splitter) and compare that to the price of gas and then figure what my time is worth.    I mean, splitting wood is fun, but after a cord or two I think I'd be interested in doing some other things instead.  

It saddens me to think about not having a wood burning stove, but the price and simplicity, ease, cleanliness of gas is just super compelling!   Maybe I just primarily heat with gas and then supplement for ambiance with wood?


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## begreen (Nov 7, 2010)

Prices are going to vary a lot by region and what is available for fuel. Pellets are about $100/ton cheaper here, but no NG in this rural neighborhood. Propane is pushing $4.00/gal. Wood, if you buy it is expensive, around $200-250/cord softwood, $350 hardwood. But back east we have folks reporting they get hardwood for $150/cord.


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## EatenByLimestone (Nov 7, 2010)

I have a little one this year and scrounging took a back seat to time with her.  I bought wood for next year at $120/cd.  

2 cds oak and hickory
1 cord maple (probably soft.  I didn't look that closely)
1 cord maple, elm and cherry


If you only burn for ambiance, you will never break even.  Unless you get free wood and do the install yourself.  Even then, you are probably looking at 10+ years.

I pass a few places offering pellet brands I recognize (Barefoots) for just over 200/ton.  

Matt


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## Dune (Nov 7, 2010)

I never understood buying firewood. (I will buy it if it is severely underpriced) When I wanted to start burning wood, I started collecting wood. After I had 3 or four cords I installed a stove. I will not have gas in my house, so the option is oil or wood. Free wood is far cheaper than oil.  Paying retail for firewood instead of using street gas is probably not worth it. Propane costs about twice as much as natural gas arround here.


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## woodgeek (Nov 7, 2010)

A lot of us back east do not have gas as an option.


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## SolarAndWood (Nov 7, 2010)

Just out of curiosity, was that PG&E propaganda or a good guy assessment done by the guys at the stove shop?

Our choices are electricity or propane.  It made the investment in wood a pretty easy decision.


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## richg (Nov 7, 2010)

It's early in the morning, I'm hung over and can't do math right now. BUT: that price comparison looks flawed to me, and there are many other factors that go into heating system choice aside from "at this very minute" pricing. Abouy the comparison:

-it is dated 09/2009: I have not clue about gas prices now, but here in northern NJ we see pellets at about $225 per ton and a cord of hardwood at $180-225
-They list "gas" at .96 per therm, but if the gas is burned in a central furnace, the rate per hour rises from .96 to $2.48 per hour, far in excess of the cost of wood they list
-Natural gas is a fossil fuel; while it may burn clean, it is not greenhouse neutral. Wood heat produces particulate emmissions but is greenhouse neutral
-Propane, which is used by many folks where there are no gas lines, is derived from petroleum. 

That price comparision looks more like a sales gimmick to me.


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## MarkinNC (Nov 7, 2010)

I'd be skeptical of the numbers.  I went to a propane site, the one they advertise on commercials, and the prices were all skewed in favor of propane.  I believe the comparison was with propane for less that $2 per gallon.

In our local paper and on CL, I don't believe I have seen wood for ever $200 per cord.  I am going to go out on a limb because I am just getting in to all this, but, IF I had to buy my fuel I think pellets maybe the way to go cost wise.


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## SolarAndWood (Nov 7, 2010)

MarkinNC said:
			
		

> I am going to go out on a limb because I am just getting in to all this, but, IF I had to buy my fuel I think pellets maybe the way to go cost wise.



Depends on where you are.  Coal is a lot cheaper than pellets here.


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## savageactor7 (Nov 7, 2010)

Well yeah there must be a certain cost point that it doesn't pay to burn wood if it's not free to the user. For this house I'd pay for coal before propane. For me one of the beauties of heating with a stove is that the farther you get away from it the cooler it is...and that's the way I like it. 

Sure propane is a nice backup but most times your pay to heat rooms you're not in.


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## fjord (Nov 7, 2010)

SufficientSelf.com said:
			
		

> Did that get your attention?  :D
> Ok, what do y'all think about this:
> 
> 
> ...



Whew. Another: "I saw it, put it online, it has to be true". Happy Time Change to you all.

The figures in that sign are flawed; impolitely, B.S. For you Google researchers, do your own diligence. Compare apples to apples, BTUs to BTUs of ANY fossil fuel cost. It is easy, there are 100's of charts from many agencies and websites. Nice one is right here. Basic fact is that buying C/S/D firewood up to a price of   +/- $500/cord is still cheaper than all fossils, unless KIng Faisal or Mr. Chavez give it away. Do the math. What's a "therm" ? :lol: 

For the few here who do their own harvesting, scrounging, humping.......priceless.

For the majority using wood as entertainment, romance, a green statement, the supplement to a 65 F central furnace, or the chance to post on a wood heating blog, yes, wood is $$$$$.

JMNSHO


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## cycloxer (Nov 7, 2010)

I'll post my calculation later, but NG can be cheaper than wood. I have NG hot water baseboard heat as well as my wood stove. I consistently pay $250 per cord of oak, which is maybe not a great price, but this is top shelf quality oak that stacks out 5-10% over a cord every time. The point is that you need a quality, cost-effective source for your fuel. Also, the spot price of NG has been very low over the past year:

http://www.wtrg.com/daily/ngspot.gif


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## John_M (Nov 7, 2010)

Certainly, I am intellectually unable to ascertain the accuracy of the data in the posted comparison. However, I can say this for certain: Up until last year I burned about 1,200 gallons of propane yearly and paid about $1.80 to $2.00 per gallon for that LPG. Propane has provided heat, domestic hot water, cooking and clothes dryer for the previous 5 years. Last year I installed a wood stove, constructed a hearth, purchased a chainsaw w/accessories, a nice wood splitter, and built some racks and a four cord shed for seasoning the wood. My total expense was about $10,000. I fell the trees on my own property. 

Last year I burned almost four cords of firewood and 400 gallons of propane. I saved about 800 gallons of propane @ an average cost of $1.90 per gallon. So, during my first year of burning with wood, I "saved" about $1,520.00 . At that rate it will take me about 6 years to "save" the cost of the entire wood stove installation. Assuming propane and other petroleum based fuels will continue to increase in price, I will begin truly saving considerably more each year. 

These "savings" do not begin to take into account all the work involved in felling, hauling, bucking, splitting, and stacking the wood. I mostly enjoy doing all this work provided I am not rushed by weather or season to "'git 'er done". I enjoy the labor. In my life, maintaining the chainsaw and splitter are enjoyable pastimes and the costs are minimal. 

Then there is the pure pleasure of using the stove: the first fire of the season; a fire that roars to life each morning with just a little tinder and kindling... and just about when your coffee is ready. The warmth is immediate. Others are more able than I to articulate the enjoyment of sitting in front of a warm stove and watching the flames warm the house. Those who burn with wood will know what I am unable to describe. The satisfaction and pleasure I gain from heating with wood is, to me, worth every penny of the cost.  

John_M


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## eujamfh (Nov 7, 2010)

There are sites on the web that will run numbers for you if you plug in the price of fuels...wood routinely comes in cheaper.  We have heat pumps, and an efficient home and in the shoulder season the new (last year pumps) are cheaper to run than if I have to buy wood.  But, for us, once the temp is below mid-30s, the heat STRIPS come on and that is where the bills starts to rise.  

I agree with John M.  For us, if I was running electric heat only....the house would be much much cooler in the dead of winter.  But with the wood heat, I can keep the house mid 70s without batting an eye at the end of month bill.  Wife likes it better, kids can run around in dress up dresses without wearing a bunch of sweaters.  I ran the numbers what we saved from the first year we were in the house compared to the previous owners, and the cost I have invested will take 6 years to recover (stove w/install, new liner for second stove, splitter and saw).  But, that is not taking into consideration what it would cost running the electric in the mid 70s temperatures...doing that and I am sure I would break even (less sweat equity) in 4 years.  I think I saved about $1200 last year.

Plus - that assumes the stove, splitter and saw are worthless and can not be sold.  Looking at those numbers...I think I am even in an easy 3 years.  

And as John M pointed out....I love the work.  Its really one of my hobbies...and there are few hobbies I have that actually PAY me back.


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## geoffm24 (Nov 7, 2010)

If you are paying for wood then the cost savings against natural gas are minimal.  I spent about $2,000 for the entire year on gas and that includes our hot water heater prior to the wood stove.  I figure I spend roughly $1,400 per year on actual heat for the house out of that $2,000.  So if you spent $200 a cord and went through 5 cords your savings would at best be $400.  When you start adding things like $150 a year for a chimney sweep. firestarters, gas for the chainsaw, equipment costs etc. the "savings" are in fact nothing at all.  Since I pay little to nothing for wood, enjoy the smells and heat, like hand splitting, like stacking, like being outdoors, like having the stove room at 75 degrees, etc it is a money saver as well as ambience maker.


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## Chettt (Nov 7, 2010)

Here's the real way to compare fuel prices. If you go into a house that is heated by oil, electricity, gas etc. the inside temperature will usually be between 60 and 67 degrees. You come into a hearth.com members home and it will be 70 to 85 degrees.


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## BrowningBAR (Nov 7, 2010)

Even if I were to by all of my wood at $200 per cord (8 cords x 200 = $1600) I would still be cutting my heating costs by at least 50%. And that is at a minimum. Currently heating oil is at about $3.00-$3.10 per gallon and inching up. That puts me at at least $4,500 for heating oil.

I'm no math genius, but $1600 sure seems a LOT cheaper than $4500.


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## fjord (Nov 7, 2010)

Doing the intellectual math of BTU to BTU--quantity, area heated, cost / BTU--factoring in ONLY the cost of fuel, cheap NG does come only CLOSE to bought wood.
Then the capital cost of wood getting gear of the $10,000. has to be factored over amortized time like it was said. 

There are the vital intangibles: learning the art of wood burning, gaining the safe skills to fell and harvest trees, the satisfaction of harvesting your own fuel. Managing a sustainable woodlot. Using a close to carbon free fuel (ashes to ashes). The needed exercise ( you, you poster, wood harvesters don need no stinkin health clubs ). Lest we forget: the joy of being near the heat of a wood stove in January Downeast. This ain't Virginia, Virginia.

There's a poignant quote from one here (sorry) by Aldo Leopold on comparing getting your own wood to food from your own farm. Says it all. Priceless.


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## branchburner (Nov 7, 2010)

Burning Wood Is More Expensive Than Gas!?!?!

Yeah, and going fishing or skiing or playing golf is more expensive than watching TV. That's not even counting all the damn walking involved!

If you don't enjoy burning wood and all that goes with it, why bother? There are easier ways to save a buck, and on this level, feeling good about saving the planet has a lot more to do with just feeling good than with actually saving the planet.

BTW, I prefer watching TV to going fishing or skiing or playing golf. But I prefer cutting, splitting , hauling and stacking to watching TV (with certain exceptions - go Pats!). Getting paid for burning wood is just a big bonus.


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## certified106 (Nov 7, 2010)

For me it's a no brainer Electric is .17 cents per KWH and propane is any where from 1.99-2.69 per gallon in the summer (more in the winter), so on that scale to heat with propane and keep the house 66°- 68°all winter would cost me about $1800. Even if I bought all my wood split, cut, delivered and stacked (which I dont), and burnt 5 cords (which Idon't) it would cost $750. That doesn't even take into account the fact that burning with wood the living area of the house is 75° and the bedrooms are 66° which is exactly how I like it. Not to mention that I don't have to listen to my wife and kids complain about how they are freezing to death and watch the dog shiver. So even if they cost the same amount of money I would choose to heat with wood just for comforts sake.


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## ChoppingAccountant (Nov 7, 2010)

Here is what I use to calculate the cost difference. It is from a Department of Energy website.

www.eia.doe.gov/neic/experts/heatcalc.xls

Nationally, natural gas prices are cheaper now than in at least 5 years. Running the number for myself with my specific equipment in mind, c/s/d Oak would have to be under $110 for it to make economical sense. Around here, $150 is the going rate so I a burning what I can (have) scrounge and run the furnace otherwise.

The point was made above that you need to factor in other costs as well such as chainsaws, trucks and burning skills. I see the points being made but if one already has the equipment, those costs are sunk and you should only consider the marginal cost of running and maintaining. The depreciation can be accounted for before purchase in the decision making process but not after it is spent.


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## btuser (Nov 7, 2010)

I have NEVER been excited about turning a thermostat.  I get excited about lighting the stove EVERY TIME!


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## Backwoods Savage (Nov 7, 2010)

I won't even check their figures, but....

Well, well, well. According to these guys, I've lost a ton of dollars over the past 50+ years because I stupidly burn wood. Not only that, but if I burned NG, which I can't, I could turn my thermostats down, put on some extra clothing and be uncomfortable all winter. Because I burn wood, I don't turn the thermostats down, I remove clothing (indoors) in the winter and I am very comfortable all winter. But it costs me a lot of money....at least according to those guys.   And how many people can get by with 30,000 btus?

Not only the above, but I also own a chainsaw for cutting the wood and I am constantly buying gas and oil for the saw; I have to purchase chains for the saw and I have to buy files to sharpen the things. I own a splitter and I have to buy gas and oil to run it. I own an atv and a trailer for hauling the wood and that atv takes gas and oil. I just purchased a new trailer this summer so there is another $400 I spent. In addition to that, I also own an axe, splitting maul, sledge hammer, 3 iron wedges, cant hook, chains, come-a-long, etc. Man, that is a tremendous investment! 

In addition to the above, we purchased a new wood stove 3 years ago. At that time we also put up a SS chimney and also built a new hearth. Well, the stove and chimney were costly. But, my neighbor owed me some time and dollars so he built the hearth for us and even put up the chimney. The stove was purchased at a big discount so that was worth a lot.

In addition to the above, I spend a lot of time cutting, splitting, stacking, moving to house and all with the wood. Then there are the ashes to contend with and the mess it makes wherever you split wood and the messes with ashes, etc. It takes space. We just put up a new shed and a portion of it will be used for wood storage. 


So what have we got for all of this?

In our case (I have more experience with our own rather than using someone else's situation), we have a few extra things. Like the atv, but even without cutting firewood we would have an atv. The trailer; even without hauling wood we would still have that trailer. The saw; even without cutting firewood we find we have a need for the saw. The splitter. This is an added expense and tool. We have owned it a bit over 20 years and paid somewhere around $800 for it. That's $80 per year. We have taken in perhaps $1000 (probably more) so that brings the cost down a bit. Still not cheap but I would hate to be without one. The hydraulic splitter was purchased after an injury made it almost impossible for me to split the wood by hand. The various tools like cant hook, axe, etc. are minimal cost and will last a lifetime. Still those dollars could have been put in a bank to earn 1-2% interest!

I have no idea how much time I spend annually with the putting up of the wood but is this not better than paying and having to drive to a gym? The body needs exercise and I enjoy putting up wood a whole lot more than doing some silly exercises or having to drive somewhere and pay to sweat.


All in all, we have burned wood for a good many years now and have never regretted it. I have a problem visualizing us not burning wood so long as we live in the north. I'd hate to be without it for sure. We do stay much more comfortable with wood heat and it is better for the environment. In our case, we own a woodlot so the wood is there. We could just leave all the trees that die every year for the woodpeckers and insects, but they still have plenty. Overall, for me, it is the fact that I can be comfortable in my home during the coldest part of winter. Of course, that means I usually stay at home during winter because when I go to someone else's place I almost freeze! Another benefit is that my wife is able to do a lot of cooking on our wood stove which saves the dollars we would normally spend on LP. If the neighborhood gets cut off from electricity, like during some freezing rain period, the neighbors come here to stay warm.


A couple other points is the fact that I can sell firewood to earn back some of those dollars. I also can use some firewood as a tithe or as a goodwill offer to some folks not as fortunate as I. It is written, "...Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." So we do every year try to help some of those folks....but we do it not expecting anything in return. We've even been known to dump some wood in somebody's driveway when they were not home. Hopefully they never find out where it came from.


So maybe the wood burning has cost us over the years. I can't really put a pencil to it exactly but methinks it is not true at all. I believe we have saved a lot of dollars over the many years, have received much satisfaction for doing for ourselves and others, have received much benefit with the exercise and the very best part is that we will stay very comfortable in our home rather than having to live in a cold house. The rest is all gravy. Also, most folks have hobbies; what's wrong with having wood cutting as a hobby? Does it then cost you as much? You get back a lot in return for a little money spent.


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## Mrs. Krabappel (Nov 7, 2010)

I don't have a splitter or a saw (yet!)  But I know someone who does, and he will come over and take care of the job for a nominal amount of money.  Cheaper than renting the splitter.

It's like chickens    Even if the cost of managing a flock is more that buying eggs at the store, there's a value there beyond money.


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## Catspaw (Nov 7, 2010)

I ran my numbers on the DOE website. Even using the premium price of $285/cord that I paid for kiln dried hardwood (inc. delivery), my cost of heating with wood is LESS THAN HALF of heating with propane (at $3/gallon). Once I start using wood that I cut myself, my savings will get even better.

Oh - and my house is warm for the first time since I've lived here.

- Rich


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## jharkin (Nov 7, 2010)

That must not include the delivery charges.  

Where I live Ive got one of the cheaper gas companies in the state (NStar)  and they charge anywhere from 40-60 cents per therm for delivery charges (tiered - lower the more you use). Add to that the supply cost of gas, which was 38cents early in the year, 22 cents at the end of summer and just raised to 81 cents for winter.

So in the summer to heat water our average cost with charges was around $0.75
In the winter our average for 150-200 thems per month we use will be about $1.20

I've done the math and the break even on wood is around $275 a cord.  Ive buying burning green a year ahead at 150-200 per so I am a little ahead.  If I had the space for grapple loads I could get that down to $50 per. And then its a total no brainier.


Sounds like wishful thinking on the part of whomever posted that sign.


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## wkpoor (Nov 7, 2010)

I scanned this thread kinda fast. I just have one question. WHERE THE HECK ARE PEOPLE PAYING 200-250 A CORD? Around here 100-125 is the norm for a whole measured cord of Ash or Oak. And that can be a hard sell. My neighbor can"t sell the most beautiful fully dried Ash for 130.00 dollars. So just were in the HECK in this country do people pay those rates. Maybe I need o send a semi there to sell my wood.


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## fjord (Nov 7, 2010)

Backwoods Savage said:
			
		

> I won't even check their figures, but....
> 
> Well, well, well. According to these guys, I've lost a ton of dollars over the past 50+ years because I stupidly burn wood. Not only that, but if I burned NG, which I can't, I could turn my thermostats down, put on some extra clothing and be uncomfortable all winter. Because I burn wood, I don't turn the thermostats down, I remove clothing (indoors) in the winter and I am very comfortable all winter. But it costs me a lot of money....at least according to those guys.   And how many people can get by with 30,000 btus?
> 
> ...



Well said Dennis ! Nice.


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## ChoppingAccountant (Nov 7, 2010)

I don't count any NG charges that are not based on usage because they are fixed costs to me (gas range & hot water). I count usage and delivery charges based upon therms.


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## 48rob (Nov 7, 2010)

Dennis,

 Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Sometimes we must compare and try to reduce costs, but overall it is important that we don't loose sight of the fact that life is short.

The quality of life and the enjoyment we get from the way we choose to spend the time we have left is of far greater concern than a few dollars either way.

The stove I'm installing in my shop will end up costing about a thousand dollars with pipe and everything ready to go.
I already have a NG. heater that keeps it warm, but I prefer burning wood.
It is a desire to do something I enjoy.
I doubt I'll save much, if any money on my heating bill, but it isn't about money.

Rob


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## Slow1 (Nov 7, 2010)

A bit late to the party here...

This sign is clearly a marketing 'data sheet' designed to be biased toward selling gas stoves.  I have little doubt that the numbers can in fact be proven out with the proper calculations. The "trick" if you will is that they have chosen to compare based on a meaningless common variable and not display what really matters here.  They are using the $/HOUR as the emphasis - as if somehow that is a comparable "equal" basis on which to compare heating appliances.  Sure (they want us to think) we'll run our heat all the time during heating season so why not?  The heating appliances are not comparable in this manner - how do we use them?

Assuming one were to heat the home with the given appliance...

A gas stove will be run near continuously - burning the fuel at a constant rate to heat.  Easy to calculate cost/HOUR.

A wood stove cycles - load/burn/cool/wait?/repeat - how long is the cycle? how much wood? do you take peak BTU and calculate wood consumed to maintain that to get your fuel cost/HOUR?  Hmm... not exactly specified in the display eh? I suspect the methodology is something along that line.  They don't even say how many BTU they are expecting eh?

Furnace is generally controlled by a thermostat and will cycle on and off.  When it is on it burn at a very high rate, but nothing when it is off.  I'll bet they calculated the cost/HOUR only when the furnace is actually burning (hmm... how hot would the house get if furnace ran 24/7?)

Clearly they are not using a constant for BTU/day (or the Furnace / gas stove) would only vary based on relative efficiency of the appliances.

Bottom line - this sign is marketing BS.  It is a shame that there are not enough educated consumers to see through this material and call the vendors/shops on such attempts to mislead  people.  Yes, the sign may well be factual but it really has no value in making an economic/purchase decision.


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## Jaugust124 (Nov 7, 2010)

wkpoor, 
Here in NY, "seasoned" firewood goes on Craigslist anywhere from $180-$250ish per cord.  The average probably being about $200.  

As far as the cost of burning is concerned, as a newbie it's priceless.  Just as I was reading this thread, my wife jokingly complained that it was too hot downstairs - 71* with the insert running. If we had the oil furnace on I'd have it set at about 64* and even in the dead of winter, it never goes up past 67*-68* and live with being a bit chilly.  Last year we spent over $2000 on heat and h/w.  Needless to say, we are enjoying the warmth of our new stove and every time I fire it up, all I can think is, "I'm already saving money."  

What truly convinced me to go with an alternative energy was a couple years ago when oil was well over $4.00 per gallon.  It really angered me that the oil man had us by the throat and there' was nothing we could do about it.  Well, I decided to do at least a little something.  To be honest, I was torn between a wood stove and a pellet stove.  After much research I went with the wood stove.   

Here's why: With a pellet stove, I HAVE to purchase pellets - there are no other options, and when the price of oil goes up so does the price of pellets (manufacturing, shipping, etc.) And after doing the cost comparison, a pellet stove is more expensive initially than a wood stove and the way I figured it, the cost of pellets didn't really outweigh the cost of oil, so I might as well just turn up the thermostat.

With a wood stove, if I apply myself I can get a lot of wood for free.  I am off all summer and have the time and now I know, the ability to c/s/s my own wood.  Yes, it has been a lot of work, but so far I am enjoying it. I have spent a few bucks on things I wouldn't have needed had I not chosen to burn, but the peace of mind and comfort level that I already enjoying has far outweighed any costs I have incurred.

Okay, that's my 2 cents.  Thanks.


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## PapaDave (Nov 7, 2010)

No idea about those numbers, but my log loads run me $75/cord. After processing, I estimate that cost to be closer to between 80/cord. I use 2/3 cord/ month, average, for about 7 months. Less than $60/month to keep the house nice and toasty. We've not run the wall furnace full time since we moved in, but I guesstimate gas would run between 200-300/month (have a gas 92% efficient furnace in the shop that we used for a season, at 60 degs. highest bill was over 400). 
Conservatively, I think we save at LEAST $1000/year by heating with wood. Propane could be had(expensive, and fluctuates), I could install a boiler (gas, oil, or propane to fire is expensive, and fluctuates)for radiant, install a heat pump (electric rates are pretty steady,....so far), or run electric (see prior note). They all have a cost, and every time I look at it, firewood is less. 
I scrounge some every year, so that drops the overall cost to burn even more. If I still lived in the city, I can see where this would be more difficult to do. I'm glad we live here, now.
When burning nat. gas, I had to work to make the money to pay for it. When burning wood, I have to work to make the money to buy, and work to process wood.
In that sense, it takes less to use wood.
To summarize, yeah, I don't think so.


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## btuser (Nov 7, 2010)

Natural gas is cheaper than buying wood.  Wood is great for those of us who can cut/scrounge our own, but if I had to count the dollars to time spent its tough to see a profit.  Its not hard to see the price of NG go through the roof as soon as we have a tiny squeeze.  Its been 2yrs since I paid $4.00 for heating oil and I will NEVER forget it.


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## jharkin (Nov 7, 2010)

wkpoor said:
			
		

> I scanned this thread kinda fast. I just have one question. WHERE THE HECK ARE PEOPLE PAYING 200-250 A CORD? Around here 100-125 is the norm for a whole measured cord of Ash or Oak. And that can be a hard sell. My neighbor can"t sell the most beautiful fully dried Ash for 130.00 dollars. So just were in the HECK in this country do people pay those rates. Maybe I need o send a semi there to sell my wood.



Im 30mi west of boston.

Anywhere within an hour the the big northeast/west coast cities wood will be pricey.


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## SteveKG (Nov 7, 2010)

double post, sorry,..,,


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## SteveKG (Nov 7, 2010)

Trying to figure out exactly how much it costs to heat via whichever way is going to drive many crazy. Too many intangibles. I like the fire. I like my fireplace. I enjoy the woodstoves and running the chainsaws. I don't mind the clean-up and the stacking wood and whatever. It is a way of life, I don't recall even sitting down and trying to determine whether it is worth it. 

In our case, I know it's worth it as we have nearby wood on our own place and neighbors' places. In 40 years, I have spent maybe $1400 on chainsaw purchases and two of those three are still running strong and will maybe last me the rest of my life, barring accident. Last year, I kept a record, just for grins, and for 3 cords of wood, I spent about $20 on fuel and oil for the two saws. Total. I probably have $200 worth of chains and most of them I've been using for many years. I haven't worn out a chain in well over a decade.  

There was, and is, of course, major physical labor involved in felling, bucking, hauling, and splitting and stacking the wood. Big deal. I'd rather do that than work extra to pay someone for gas. My choice. 

Not to say there is never a reason to figure out whether something is worth it or makes economic sense. I suppose if I had to purchase firewood by the expensive cord, I might limit my burning to a fireplace for ambience. Maybe. 

I don't use a splitter, I do it by hand with a Fiskar's. I sharpen my own chainsaw chains 100% of the time. I did invest in materials to build a 5-cord wood shed. So there are expenses with wood. I have a 500 gal. propane tank I bought, used, for $225 to save paying the monthly or annual lease, and it holds 425 gal. propane. So, at times it can be $1000 or so to fill completely. I wait for "sales" which don't come often, but meanwhile, that much propane lasts us roughly 7 years. [We use it for stovetop cooking, the baking/oven stuff is wood cookstove, and our water heater is wood-fired, so propane lasts us a very long time.]


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## wkpoor (Nov 7, 2010)

Here in southern Ohio wood is very plentiful and if you apply yourself even the slightest wood can be free at worst. I'm at least 5yrs ahead for my own needs with a good sized log pile waiting. Her there is no money in FW probably cause its so plentiful. If I could get anything near 300 a cord I might consider quitting my job hehehehehe.


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## madrone (Nov 7, 2010)

wkpoor said:
			
		

> I scanned this thread kinda fast. I just have one question. WHERE THE HECK ARE PEOPLE PAYING 200-250 A CORD? Around here 100-125 is the norm for a whole measured cord of Ash or Oak. And that can be a hard sell. My neighbor can"t sell the most beautiful fully dried Ash for 130.00 dollars. So just were in the HECK in this country do people pay those rates. Maybe I need o send a semi there to sell my wood.



Right now, a full cord of Oak in this area runs $200+. In a couple of months there will be at least one guy on CL selling "seasoned" Oak at $300. A cord of mixed soft and hard woods runs $150-$200. Lots of wood burners in a higher density area where there are plenty of softwoods and not so much of the hardwoods. Still, I've never had to pay for firewood.

BTW, the numbers on that flyer are totally wrong, but working out the numbers for my own heating needs, I've always come up with NG cheaper than buying wood. The maximum price I could pay for wood and still come out ahead came to ~$75/cord. I'd pay $100 for a cord of truly dry Oak even though it would be more expensive, because wood heat is more satisfying in every way. Luckily, a little hustle has always been enough.


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## Lumber-Jack (Nov 7, 2010)

I cut my own wood, I enjoy the work and get the wood for free. There are of course expenses involved with heating with wood, and getting that free wood, but they are so minimal that they are not worth factoring in.
Now if for some reason I had to start buying my wood, due to injury or some other unforeseen cause, I would start to look at things differently. I can tell you right now though, I would never pay $300 per cord for wood, so that cost calculation sign at the beginning of this thread is meaningless to me. It's obvious that if you have to pay for your firewood, as the price per cord goes up, at some point it will become cost prohibitive to use, just like anything else.

Please chime in here if any of you hearth.com members are paying $300 (or more) per cord.................?     Perhaps some other members in your area can help you to rectify that situation.

When we bought our current house we did a major renovation that included installing a HVAC heatpump system, and if you don't know most heatpump systems require a backup, or auxiliary heating method for quick heat, or when it gets too cold outside for the heatpump to operate efficiently. Because we have a NG line that runs in front of our house we briefly considered having a high efficiency gas furnace as the back-up. Problem was the monthly surcharge for NG. Something I don't think is factored into the cost calculation sign at the beginning of this post. We didn't mind paying the money to have the NG system installed as a back-up to the heatpump system, but there was no way I was gona pay $30+ monthly surcharge just to have the privilege of having NG line hooked up to our house. Especially when it was only a back-up, not something that would be used regularly. 
As it worked out, we simply went with the cheaper route and had an electrical resistance element installed, something that never gets used. The heatpump system works wonderfully as an central air-conditioning system in the summer time, and will add to the resale value of the house, if and when we ever sell, but for heating in the winter we rely on wood, and let the heatpump have a rest.


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## corey21 (Nov 7, 2010)

i prefer wood heat over gas.


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## wkpoor (Nov 7, 2010)

Carbon_Liberator said:
			
		

> I cut my own wood, I enjoy the work and get the wood for free. There are of course expenses involved with heating with getting that free wood, but they are so minimal that they are not worth factoring in.
> Now if for some reason I had to start buying my wood, do to injury or some other unforeseen cause, I would start to look at things differently. I can tell you right now though, I would never pay $300 per cord for wood, so that cost calculation sign at the beginning of this thread is meaningless to me. It's obvious that if you have to pay for your firewood, as the price per cord goes up, at some point it will become cost prohibitive to use, just like anything else.
> 
> Please chime in here if any of you hearth.com members are paying $300 (or more) per cord.................?     Perhaps some other members in your area can help you to rectify that situation.
> ...


Everything you wrote here I ditto 100%. In fact I am going to install an electric furnace for many of the same reasons. My wood burner heats the house but if we go away I'll still need a back up. And gas heat costs even when your not using it.


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## wendell (Nov 7, 2010)

When I bought my first stove I also bought 1 cord of oak at $240 and after burning it, looked at our fuel costs and realized I had broken even as we had saved $240 in our gas bill. Not exactly what I had in mind when I bought the stove.

Haven't bought a stick of wood since.

Now, if I could just stop buying stoves and saws.  ;-)


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## shawneyboy (Nov 7, 2010)

Please, I can guarantee you that the cost to heat my home, I use fuel oil, will be SUBSTANTIALLY lower using wood. I do get my wood for "free". Yes there is a cost for tools, time, and fuel, but I do not buy my wood. Even if I did buy my wood my savings would be substantial. Add to that the falling dollar, which will raise fuel prices of all types quite a bit over the coming years, and the increased demand and dwindling supply, wood burning will become even more economical over the coming years. Then as was stated earlier in the thread all of the upfront costs are fixed over a very long term, for some tools, for the lifetime of burning, there is no way in hell that any other source of heat, save perhaps, solar or geothermal (both have extreme upfront costs so savings may never be seen) could be more economical, at least here in the US.


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## woodsmaster (Nov 7, 2010)

wkpoor said:
			
		

> I scanned this thread kinda fast. I just have one question. WHERE THE HECK ARE PEOPLE PAYING 200-250 A CORD? Around here 100-125 is the norm for a whole measured cord of Ash or Oak. And that can be a hard sell. My neighbor can"t sell the most beautiful fully dried Ash for 130.00 dollars. So just were in the HECK in this country do people pay those rates. Maybe I need o send a semi there to sell my wood.



+ 1


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## DanCorcoran (Nov 7, 2010)

Slow 1:

"A gas stove will be run near continuously - burning the fuel at a constant rate to heat."

I have a 15-year old propane gas log stove in my cabin that has a built-in thermostat.  The stove cycles on and off, depending on ambient temperature.  Our gas logs in the fireplace here in Richmond just come on and stay on whatever flame level you set.  Our gas-fired boiler for our hot-water radiators here in Richmond has a thermostat, so the gas cycles on and off.

I think it just depends on your setup. Our fireplace gas logs are primarily decorative...the others are intended as a primary heat source.

P.S.  Anybody want to buy my propane gas log stove?  With my new woodstove, who needs it?


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## WES999 (Nov 7, 2010)

Now that I have the Regency upstairs, it will heat my house for the most part, The oil burner only comes on if it is really cold. 

I probably paid around $800 before the stove.

Last time I bought oil was June...09. I figure I saved a few bucks. :cheese:


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## Dakotas Dad (Nov 7, 2010)

No such thing as "free" fire wood. But I am willing to pay, and actually enjoy the "costs" associated with owning my own little wood lot, and being able to provide heat no matter what, for my home. 2 chainsaws, trailer, and I use my lawn tractor to haul wood. All of which I had before I owned a wood stove. So I don't really count the cost of those. But my labor and consumables for fire wood processing sure aren't "free" but I do enjoy using them.. and hey, it keeps me out of the bars during the day. And on my power bill, even with our fairly short heating season, I am not paying $600+ a year on my electric bill..

Our install cost $4200, we got back $1250 or so on our taxes, so in 5 years, it's all payed for. 

My wife points out I DID buy the Fiskar's SS since putting in the stove.. so I guess I have to amortize that cost in..  ;-)


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## cptoneleg (Nov 7, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Prices are going to vary a lot by region and what is available for fuel. Pellets are about $100/ton cheaper here, but no NG in this rural neighborhood. Propane is pushing $4.00/gal. Wood, if you buy it is expensive, around $200-250/cord softwood, $350 hardwood. But back east we have folks reporting they get hardwood for $150/cord.


 
   My area you can buy cord of hardwood, usually oak, locust mix for $125.00 cord you just have to season it yourself. and the usual make sure you don't get ripped.


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## cptoneleg (Nov 7, 2010)

woodsmaster said:
			
		

> wkpoor said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


       Don't bring your bugs orany other hitchikers if you come my way.


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## Renovation (Nov 7, 2010)

Hi Folks,

Actually, it's pretty easy to call BS on the info in the OP.

JUST USE THIS SITE'S OWN FUEL COST CALCULATOR!   :cheese: 

It's easy, and it's fun!  

https://www.hearth.com/fuelcalc/oil.php

(I'm surprised the moderators haven't reminded us of the calculator, but maybe I missed it.)

In the boonies, my only choices are electricity, propane, heating oil and wood (coal too I suppose, but I haven't looked into it). 

I checked local prices, and Propane is around $2.10 a gallon (according to the gummit), electricity is 0.12/KWH, and wood is $150/cord.  Then I put in 80% efficiency for a wood stove, 90% for a gas furnace, and 100% for electricle (thanks Lisa).

The results?  

Yearly heating costs, for the energy equivalent of 5 cords of wood:
Electricity $3,340
Propane $2,605/year
Wood $713

So, wood would save me 73% or $2K/year over propane, and is a lot more satisfying.

I hope we've driven a wooden stake through that one!  ;-)


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## btuser (Nov 7, 2010)

Combustion efficiency for a wood stove may be 80%, but I'd be lucky to get 60% of the heat from my stove into the house.  I don't have the setup for it.  If I had a center stove and a high mass design or a tipi or yurt then great but homes aren't built like this.   Combustion efficiency vs seasonal efficiency vs system efficiency is what kills the average wood heat system (unless you're talking a gasser w/ internal storage).   The best systems keep the btus in the fuel and release them only as needed.  This is very hard to do with a natural draft system with unpredictable fuel and changing weather conditions.  Even the human body is only 60% efficient.


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## geoffm24 (Nov 7, 2010)

RenovationGeorge said:
			
		

> Hi Folks,
> 
> Actually, it's pretty easy to call BS on the info in the OP.
> 
> ...



Not really, I'll bet dollars to donuts that since that sign was in a STOVE DEALERS store they were talking about a gas stove vs a wood stove not a gas burning furnace.  They are also talking about Natural Gas not Propane, big difference.


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## SufficientSelf.com (Nov 7, 2010)

Wow guys, great discussion!  Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences!   I'm glad I used a title that would get your attention.  :D



			
				SolarAndWood said:
			
		

> Just out of curiosity, was that PG&E propaganda or a good guy assessment done by the guys at the stove shop?



I'm not 100% sure, but I believe the PG&E part was just for the price for natural gas.   It is possible that the place is trying to push their gas stoves, but they also sell wood and pellet stoves too, so not sure if they would be intentionally digging into those offerings.



			
				richg said:
			
		

> That price comparision looks more like a sales gimmick to me.



I was thinking the same thing, so I did some searching and found the following:

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/fuel_cost_comparison_calculator/
http://www.woodpelletinfo.com/calculator/

When In put in $300 per cord for wood, and $0.98 for gas / therm (going rate in my area) gas is always cheaper.   

Can someone check my math?   Based on my math I need about 30 millin BTU's max to heat my home during the winter (based on a little less than 2 cords of wood max per season and 20 million BTU/Cord).
For wood (if purchased at $300/ cord) that is $600 a season.
For gas, that is $366 a season.
If I get free wood and am splitting it, I'm only saving myself $366 a season?  If I have to rent a splitter, then I'm down to only saving $266, and that is not factoring in all the work to rent the splitter, split, stack, cleanup, etc.

I wish they made a free standing wood stove that had a gas option!   :D



			
				fjord said:
			
		

> The figures in that sign are flawed; impolitely, B.S. For you Google researchers, do your own diligence. Compare apples to apples, BTUs to BTUs of ANY fossil fuel cost. It is easy, there are 100's of charts from many agencies and websites. Nice one is right here. Basic fact is that buying C/S/D firewood up to a price of   +/- $500/cord is still cheaper than all fossils, unless KIng Faisal or Mr. Chavez give it away. Do the math. What's a "therm" ? :lol:



Not trying to argue, but the data on both of the sites above (one of which is here on hearth.com) both state that at $300 a cord and $0.95 per therm, gas is cheaper.   Honestly, the math is super easy.   I know the price per therm and price per cord.   The only numbers that we need to agree on is the BTU's per cord and per therm and we can easily compare.   Heck, I know it won't be perfect because of a MILLION variables, but I'm sure we can find a way to get the data at least close enough to know if one is way cheaper than the other or if they are too close to even worry about.




			
				eujamfh said:
			
		

> And as John M pointed out....I love the work.  Its really one of my hobbies...and there are few hobbies I have that actually PAY me back.



I totally understand that.   I love fires and love wood and love burning things (been a pyro since I was a wee lad).   With that said, at some point (at least for me) the hobby starts to turn into a "job" that I have to do, and once past that point it just becomes a chore.  I am fortunate to have a lot of hobbies that save or make me money, so I need to value my "regular time" and also my "hobby time".




			
				wkpoor said:
			
		

> WHERE THE HECK ARE PEOPLE PAYING 200-250 A CORD?


See here: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/sss/eby?query=firewood&srchType=T

You can get under $300 a cord, but it is often mixed softwoods.


In general, I don't really want to debate the benefits of wood vs. other forms of heat (how the heat "feels", how it saves the planet, how it makes me feel more self sufficient, provides excercise, etc.) because that is all SUPER subjective.  I'm mostly interested to see if the numbers and my math are correct, because from there I can make an informed decision about the numbers and THEN I can try to factor in my personal subjectivity.   For example, if wood and gas were break even at $300 a cord, I may still do wood just because I love it.    If at $300 a cord, wood is 50% more expensive... I may change my decision.  Some of you may keep burning wood even if it is 10 times more than gas... but that's not me and I need to have the numbers as a baseline from which to make an informed decision.      I bet even if some of those have a point at which they would abandon wood (like if it was the same value as gold perhaps?)  

I'm not trying to be difficult, just trying to make good decisions on accurate data... because up until now I feel like my decisions have been wrong because I thought wood, even at $300 a cord, was cheaper than gas.

Another example of subjectivity, Which is more "dangerous", gas or wood?   Some say gas because it will blow your house up.  Other say that using chainsaws, splitters, etc. have a way higher probability of accident and therefore is way more "dangerous".    If I cut off a couple fingers cutting and splitting wood, that would be the end of me since all my income is basically built on my ability to efficiently use the computer and type.   Also around subjectivity and safety:  We have a lot of black widow spiders here.  Do I factor in bringing those into the house?

Again, I totally love the discussion and I hope those that love burning wood don't think I'm debating with the benefits of wood.   I'm just trying to get an idea of the economics so, again, I can make an informed decision.    Those of you that say the numbers are wrong... help me know the exact numbers so I can work from there.   

*My question:

At $300 a cord for wood and $0.98 per therm for gas, which is cheaper and by how much?  * 

From there I can:

1)  Adjust the numbers if cord price goes down or gas price goes up
2)  Adjust the decision based on very personal and subjetive pros and cons of wood vs. gas.

Thanks again


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## btuser (Nov 7, 2010)

For most people burning wood doesn't make ecconomic sense.


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## Stephen in SoKY (Nov 7, 2010)

I have to consider that my electric rates are 9 cents/KWH, my propane fill up last month was $1.99/gallon and wood is much more dificult for me to process than it was just a few years ago. I still put up & burn about 2 cords a year (all hardwood, all harvested here at home) but friday last I ran over to Owensboro and picked up 2 tons of coal for $170.00 total. That's 55-60 million BTU's for $170. I'm still golden during power outages, it stores indefinetely, my phyisical involvement is shoveling (-0- danger) rather than felling/bucking/splitting/stacking/moving to the porch, and I'll only tend the stove twice a day. Obviously, whenever anyone asks me about going to wood, I say yes enthusiastically, but strongly recomend they go with a coal stove to burn it just in case they ever really look at the advantages of coal.


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## Renovation (Nov 7, 2010)

geoffm24 said:
			
		

> RenovationGeorge said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My point remains--use the calculator to model your own situation.   The calculator will not predict your exact cost, but it will show the relative cost differences between  heating methods.

I can't get natural gas but if I could, natural gas would cost $2,019/year *for the same amount of heat*. With wood still saving me $1,300/year.  

And I'm sure the store owner got the gas stove savings by calculating the cost of heating one room with the family huddled around it, rather than the whole house.  Sure, a person could go that way, but would get the same savings from a central gas furnace if they only heated one room.

You have to compare apples to apples, unless of course you're trying to trick someone into buying your product. ;-)


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## SufficientSelf.com (Nov 7, 2010)

I'm new to all this, but I'm surprised there is so much debate around just basic costs!?!   If I understand what I've read correctly, a BTU is a BTU regardless if it is produced from wood, coal, electricity, gas, or 20 people in my living room playing "Dance Dance Revolution".

Sure there are a lot of BTU production differences, but can't we get close enough with the BTU output of a cord of hardwood and a therm of gas and then calculate from there?

I guess the question is, what is a good number to use for BTUs from a cord of wood in a free standing wood stove vs. BTUs from a therm of gas in a free standing gas stove?

Based on the numbers I've seen:
Firewood:  20 million BTU/Cord
Natural Gas:  1.03 million BTU’s perMCF

From the "heatcalc.xls" file, at $200 per cord and $0.98 per therm: Fuel Price Per Million Btu:
Gas: $9.80
Wood: $9.09

Are those numbers incorrect?


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## Renovation (Nov 7, 2010)

SufficientSelf.com said:
			
		

> I'm new to all this, but I'm surprised there is so much debate around just basic costs!?! Me too, but debate can be educational.   If I understand what I've read correctly, a BTU is a BTU regardless if it is produced from wood, coal, electricity, gas, or 20 people in my living room playing "Dance Dance Revolution".  Agreed!
> 
> Sure there are a lot of BTU production differences, but can't we get close enough with the BTU output of a cord of hardwood and a therm of gas and then calculate from there?
> 
> ...


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## Lumber-Jack (Nov 7, 2010)

It's pretty simple, the original poster asked the question _"Should I abandon all my excitement for getting an NC-13 (which I thought would save me money) and just get a pretty free standing gas stove?"_

Unfortunately the answer may have to be* yes* if the following things are true.
 If he is simply getting into wood heat to save money, and he can get his NG as cheaply as they have listed on that sign, and he has to pay $300 for a cord of wood.
If any of those 3 things are not true then there is some wiggle room for debate.

Again I ask,,,,,, who is paying that much for wood???


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## JotulOwner (Nov 7, 2010)

For me, if just saving money was the reason for burning wood, I would heat with oil only. Around here, scrounging for free wood isn't easy and, although the price of firewood isn't that bad (about $150/cord), when I figure in the time it takes to maintain wood heat, I would never bother unless I enjoyed it. I know many of you don't have a choice or financially it makes a huge difference, but not for me. For me, it would be easier to work a little overtime instead if that was all it was about.


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## SufficientSelf.com (Nov 7, 2010)

RenovationGeorge, thanks for validating my questions.

Carbon_Liberator, you're right about my first post.  Unfortunately $200 - $300 is the going rate for split seasoned hardwood in this area (difference in price usually between delivered and picked up) and natural gas is the price shown on that sign ($0.98).

JotulOwner, I'm at the same thought.  I'm pretty convinced now that where I live, and how little we burn, the economics just don't pan out.  I think my beak even with wood vs. gas is about $200 per cord of wood.  Now I just need to start factoring in all the subjective pros and cons and decide what to do.

Gas stove
Wood stove
Other gas heating (wall furnace, baseboards, etc.)
Some combination of the above

I hate thinking / writing this, but my wife and I are probably not inclined to rent a splitter, split wood & stack wood, deal with the mess, etc. to save a few hundred $$ a year.  I still really do love fire, but I just don't know if my love is enough to go to all the extra work.


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## Fake coal burner (Nov 7, 2010)

Burned all coal, wood. natural gas Went with gas stove 3 years ago House is on all natural gas. Saved about 1/3 on gas bill since putting in gas stove  Only use the gas furnace at night for about 5 hours, when really cold. To heat unfinished basement to keep pipes from freezing. Have to buy wood. So I have saved highest gas bill last 2 winters was around $ 125 a month. We live in a smog area that can last up to 60 days in the winter no burn any solid fuels. Looking at a cold stove when you need it. Didnt make much sense to me. Here all gas appliances have to EPA tested when installed except cook stoves. IF wood is fee you can save.


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## Badfish740 (Nov 7, 2010)

$300 bucks a cord-HA!  The highest I've seen around here (Craigslist) is _maybe_ $250.  Regardless, I started burning wood because I knew I could find what I needed for free, well, you know what I mean.  The math can get pretty hairy so I have no desire to get into it really, but suffice it to say that based on the math in that flyer I have about $1800 worth of wood in the backyard-who knew?    The six or so cords I have came from neighbors who've had trees cut, power line cuttings, pallets, etc...sure I could count my time spent transporting, splitting, cutting, stacking, etc...depreciate the cost of my used chainsaws, splitter, and assorted tools, and add up the diesel fuel, gasoline/2 stroke oil, and bar oil, and the list goes on.  I have no idea what that number would be.  However, I do know that the first winter in our house we spent nearly $2000 on fuel oil-and that was keeping the thermostat at 68!  My gut tells me that whatever I've spent to gather a winters worth of "free" wood, it doesn't come close to $2000.  Also, as others have alluded to, one gets a whole lot of satisfaction throwing another split onto the fire rather than turning up a dial.  Not to mention the fact that yes, half of my Saturday was spent splitting and transporting half a cord of free oak, but that was also half a Saturday spent working with my dad and brother, and a beautiful Sunday morning spent stacking it with my wife.  Priceless...


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## stoichiometry (Nov 7, 2010)

And to think - I was *just* complaining about  $70 a cord !!  LOL


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## Stevebass4 (Nov 7, 2010)

Chettt said:
			
		

> Here's the real way to compare fuel prices. If you go into a house that is heated by oil, electricity, gas etc. the inside temperature will usually be between 60 and 67 degrees. You come into a hearth.com members home and it will be 70 to 85 degrees.



true!!


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## Badfish740 (Nov 7, 2010)




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## drozenski (Nov 7, 2010)

Seeing as i got 18 cord for $550 from a tree company all i had to do was. Cut, split and stack it i would say wood comes out on top.

Last year: Hot water heater + Furnace = $378 bill in January
This year: Hot water heater + Furnace + Bother ( so more hotwater ) = $59 gas bill


My furnace hasent even kicked on and it's been pretty cold here the past we weeks.


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## wood-fan-atic (Nov 7, 2010)

There is no gas anywhere NEAR my house, so when I bought it, I had to heat primarily with oil. My old ,drafty, Levitt home ate up about 175gallons A MONTH in the first winter (@ about 2.90 per). Figure on 4 1/2 months of real cold weather- I spent $2300 heating my home. Sure, I bought a new stove this year ($1500 after govt rebate) and a splitter ($1000 @ TSC), but I'll have these things for many moons to come. I can also keep my house as WARM AS I SEE FIT and not worry about writing a check an oil company. And THAT, my fine Hearth.com friends , is PRICELESS! ;-)


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## Green Energy (Nov 7, 2010)

My choices are electric, fuel oil, or propane.  No natty in my neck of the woods.  I had to replace my central HVAC system a couple years ago and looked at propane.  There was not savings to put in a tank.  So I went with a 16 SEER heat pump and a wood stove for when it gets below 35 F.  It is the cheapest.  As many people also stated, it is a hobby that does not cost me money over my alternative ways of heating.

Also, I usually have about 1-2 cords of wood that I produce off my lot.  So I usually only need to buy 2 cords a year.  For me, I get good quality oak for $200 cord.


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## cycloxer (Nov 8, 2010)

Natural Gas I am paying $17.40 per mil Btu, at 80% efficiency = $21.64 per mil Btu 
Wood I am paying $11.36 per mil Btu, at 65% efficiency = $17.48 per mil Btu for Wood

So wood still wins.


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## begreen (Nov 8, 2010)

Stevebass4 said:
			
		

> Chettt said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



At 87F I would be in my undershorts and running outside to cool down. Why is it people turn on the A/C when it gets to be 80F in summer, yet they are ok with high winter temps?


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## precaud (Nov 8, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Why is it people turn on the A/C when it gets to be 80F in summer, yet they are ok with high winter temps?



The house structure is cooler in the winter. Makes a big diff.


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## OhioBurner© (Nov 8, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> At 87F I would be in my undershorts and running outside to cool down. Why is it people turn on the A/C when it gets to be 80F in summer, yet they are ok with high winter temps?



I doubt the whole house is that temp, in our house with two stoves I have yet to get the 'new side' of the house with the Rockland over ~71*F and thats with it burning at 600*. Thats in a large great room. The 'old side' of the house with the freestanding stove will get the stove room into the 80's with a good burn but one room away and your dropping pretty quick.

We dont turn on the A/C when it gets into the 80's either, well except for the one window unit in my sons bedroom (finished attic) since it gets very hot there (if it was 80 out it would probably be 90 in that room). We have one other window unit that we have put in different rooms the last two years but it doesnt run much at all. I like having it cool when I try to sleep during the day in the summer (when I'm on nights) since its so hot in the day and I need my sleep but I can't stand the noise... unless its a 90* day I tolerate the heat better than the noise.


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## OhioBurner© (Nov 8, 2010)

woodsmaster said:
			
		

> wkpoor said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wish I was as lucky with buying wood... in the Columbus craigslist I often see many in the $100-150 and I have tried 3 different ones and will never go back to any of them. Not full cords, not seasoned, cut to all sorts of unequal lengths, some rotten pieces / bug infested etc. Then there are some I see that are $200+ per cord, maybe those would be better, but I cut my own now.

The only good quality honest wood seller I have found is my neighbor (retired farmer) and he only advertises by a small handwritten sign in the yard. $60 for level 8' bed full, you haul. Length and size are so consistent I swear he must measure each piece with a ruler and re trim them or something. He didnt cut any this year though, so his good 1yr seasoned stuff is almost gone (maybe 1 more truckload) and then next year his stuff wont really be seasoned.


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## shawneyboy (Nov 8, 2010)

I collect my "free" wood myself.  I can get at least a few cords a year from neighbors and friends so I have no need to buy wood.  In my area what they call "seasoned" Oak, which needs another year to truely be seasoned goes for 150 delivered.  I guess I am lucky to be in an area that Oak is abundant.  I can't imagine buying wood but if I needed to even still at 150 a cord, wood would be far cheaper than heating oil.  When I bought this home 10 years ago heating oil was less than a buck a gallon.  Needless to say, that isnt the case anymore.  The cost of heating oil and almost all fuels is going to fluxtuate but the general direction is UP, UP, UP.  

With the devaluation of the US dollar, (QE2) it will only continue in that general direction.  I have my oil consumption over the last 4 years, before I got my stove, I have experience burning with other appliances( an insert at my Father's house) so I am not a complete newbie to this, although my current house is.  I will be tracking average historic usage and this years true usage.  I know that the other expenses, i.e. time, tools, mess, need be factored in on the end but I fully expect my fuel oil to be at LEAST 1k to 1.5k lower this year with prices where they are compared to what I would have payed.  

If my estimates are correct, the stove will break even after a few years, and be all "money in the bank" after that.  To me the stove is a finacial investment for heat, with a long teerm pay off.  Plus the added other benefits of having my house warmer than it otherwise would be, and I truely enjoy the "work", I consider it exercise.

The payoff is obviously extremely subjective to ones individual situation, but for me, I know I will see not only financial benefits, but also health and comfortability benefits as well.  I don't think there is any one answer to this that you can apply, unless you factor in all of the individual factors, which are obviously as widely different as we on the forum are.

I do know as others have stated, there is a gigantic self satisfaction looking at my oil bill, or lack there of, in a nice warm comfy house, then looking out back at my stacks and knowing that is just money i the bank.


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## op_man1 (Nov 8, 2010)

Carbon_Liberator said:
			
		

> Again I ask,,,,,, who is paying that much for wood???



In my areas, a facecord is sold for anywhere between $80-125. So a full cord would be $240-375... Of course, I have never paid for wood but it seems that this is the market rate around here...


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## Lumber-Jack (Nov 8, 2010)

op_man1 said:
			
		

> Carbon_Liberator said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for the reply Op-man, If I could get that kind of money for firewood I might consider getting into the business. But I guess firewood is just too plentiful around here. 
I don't see how anybody could justify heating their homes at those costs, perhaps they mostly sell to places like fancy ski lodges, or resorts that re-sell small loads to their clients for use in their rental unit fireplaces or something like that. If it is purchased by private individuals I'm guessing it's used for occasional mood ambiance, rather than ongoing domestic heating.


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## partybob99 (Nov 8, 2010)

In our area, natural gas is around 50.5 cents per CCF (100 cubic feet).  
1 CCF = 103,000 BTUs

From the data obtained here: According to this chart: http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/howood.htm
A cord of Red Oak contains 24,000,000 BTUs

It requires 233 CCFs of natural gas to equal the amount of BTUs in the cord of red oak.  The price for this would be about $117.67.  This is assuming both the furnance and stove are 100% efficient.  At this price it's definitely cheaper to heat with gas.  

Incidentally, the price for NG is as cheap as I've seen it in many years and about 5 years ago it was around 1.25 for a CCF!  

Of course there are certain "intangibles" that come with wood heating..  and I agree, when you got the stove going, the temps in the room are far higher than I'd ever run my NG furnance.


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## madrone (Nov 8, 2010)

If I lived in the Bay Area with those prices for cord wood, I'd probably go with a gas stove. There are some pretty nice stoves out there, and efficiency keeps improving as well as the look of the flame. I'm nowhere near giving up my wood stove, but I had a gas stove in a rental years ago and loved it. Makes you feel good, but you can turn it on and off with a remote. I have many other reasons for burning wood, but at $300/cord it would be over for me, personally.


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## 70marlin (Nov 8, 2010)

I've saved no matter what, The biggest reason was to never give the LP man a cent ever again!


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## Lumber-Jack (Nov 8, 2010)

partybob99 said:
			
		

> Of course there are certain "intangibles" that come with wood heating..  and I agree, when you got the stove going, the temps in the room are far higher than I'd ever run my NG furnance.


Well one thing that is quite tangible is that if you keep the room tempurature higher in your house, you are using your heating fuel up at a faster rate. No problem if your fuel cost are dirt cheap or free, but if it cost you, it's gona cost you more with warmer room tempuratures, and wood heating is no exception.


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## Battenkiller (Nov 8, 2010)

precaud said:
			
		

> BeGreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have the same kind of house structure that most everyone has, and I could never stand to be that hot.  Christ, even the good Lady BK doesn't want to hang out in the basement where the stove is, and she's a warmth freak.  She gets nauseous at that 85-90º temp down there.

72ºF is just perfect for us, and I get it that way basically all through the upper portions of the house.  Even my exterior walls usually read close to 72º on the IR gun, so I guess my house structure is doing OK.


FWIW Jotul has a handy calculator that you can use to compare estimated fuels costs, based on both the cost of the fuels in your area and the supposed efficiency of your burner:

http://www.jotul.com/en-us/wwwjotulus/Tools/Fuel-Calculator/

I don't like to look at it because I'll just get upset that I can't get NG here.  Interesting, though, is that they say with a 70% efficient stove I will burn 5.42 cord/year.  Well, I burn just under 6 cord now, so why should I invest thousands of dollars to save half a cord/year?  Funny, because the local Jotul dealer is trying hard to convince me I'll only burn 2-3 cord per year in an Oslo compared to 6 in my Vigilant.  Maybe he should run those numbers through the Jotul calculator.


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## Badfish740 (Nov 8, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> At 87F I would be in my undershorts and running outside to cool down. Why is it people turn on the A/C when it gets to be 80F in summer, yet they are ok with high winter temps?



Haha...even the 77 degree picture I posted was too much for me!  That was the first night I burned my add-on furnace-needless to say, controlling the temperature in the house has a bit of a learning curve.  My wife was cursing me because it was too hot to sleep :lol:  We've solved that problem by closing off the vent to the bedroom and keeping the door shut so that even when the rest of the house is at 72 (through much better control of the air supply to the furnace) or so the bedroom remains a nice 66-68 which is perfect for piling on the blankets.  If it's extremely cold outside and I've got the add-on cranked up we'll even crack a window overnight just to make sure we don't wake up sweating.


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## Grisu (Nov 8, 2010)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

> I have the same kind of house structure that most everyone has, and I could never stand to be that hot.  Christ, even the good Lady BK doesn't want to hang out in the basement where the stove is, and she's a warmth freak.  She gets nauseous at that 85-90º temp down there.
> 
> 72ºF is just perfect for us, and I get it that way basically all through the upper portions of the house.  Even my exterior walls usually read close to 72º on the IR gun, so I guess my house structure is doing OK.
> 
> ...



My coworkers were complaining when our employer declared to heat only to about 69 to 70 F but apparently do not mind the AC cooling the rooms down to 68 and below in the summer. I usually dress appropriately for the season and freeze to death in the summer and was previously roasted in the winter. (Now it's ok.) 

I am not an insulation expert but when your exterior wall is as warm as your interior, are you sure your house has good insulation? 

The Vermont Public Service Board has a publication comparing the cost of heating with different types of fuel. http://publicservice.vermont.gov/pub/fuel-price-report/10sept.pdf When you follow their assumptions, wood is still a bit ahead of gas. Btw. the going rate for "seasoned" firewood on Craigslist here seems to be about $250 per cord. I guess, we are in the upper range. :-( 
Residential gas prices have come down from their peak in 2008 (http://www.eia.doe.gov/dnav/ng/hist/n3010us3m.htm) and may come down even further considering the current low in the futures. There is currently a big oversupply of gas due to the exploitation of reservoirs that were previously not economical due to a new method called "fracking". Once people realize that pushing underground gallons of naphthalene, diethylbenzene, xylene, formaldehyde, ethylene glycol, hydrochloric acid and other nasty stuff may not be good for our drinking water expect gas prices to shoot up again.


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## op_man1 (Nov 8, 2010)

Carbon_Liberator said:
			
		

> op_man1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The funny thing is that I have never had difficulty scrounging for wood, despite the high cost of buying it. Just found another full cord +  the other day and picked up about 1/3 of it (my back did not let me take the rest) - and it's still just sitting there! I could probably sell some of mine for the low end of the scale I mentionned but the money is not worth my time.

Most people here do not heat with wood, for a few reasons - gas is very cheap and this is the middle of an urban center of 1M+. Really, in my mind, heating with wood only makes sense in places where other energy costs are high and where wood is plentyfull and/or cheap.


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## MNBobcat (Nov 8, 2010)

I have a 7,000 square foot home.  It takes a little over $3,000 in propane to heat for a winter.  

My wood is free other than the cost of my time to cut it.  I have an OWB.  We find that when heating with the OWB the heat is more consistent and more comfortable.  The OWB also heats my attached garage.  I keep that at 60F all winter.  It heats my hot water, too.

I'll soon be using the OWB to heat my 40x76 pole building.

Even if I had to buy 8 foot logs, its still way cheaper than paying for gas.


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## HeatsTwice (Nov 8, 2010)

Carbon_Liberator said:
			
		

> Again I ask,,,,,, who is paying that much for wood???



I don't pay for wood, but here in Northern California, a cord of dry oak costs $333 delivered.


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## SufficientSelf.com (Nov 8, 2010)

Thanks for all the replies everyone!    Sounds like there is a pretty big consensus that when comparing natural gas vs. paying for wood, natural gas is almost always cheaper.

I feel like I'm back to square one with my heating the house decision.      It seems like we'll be leaning toward a nice free standing natural gas stove since compared to wood is more convenient, inexpensive, cleaner, and safer (since I won't be sawing / splitting free wood... before you say natural gas is more dangerous, keep in mind we already have it being used throughout our house).

We still have our crazy old and inefficient wood stove and a huge pile of old dimensional lumber / wood in the back yard.  I'm thinking I'll just burn this stuff in the old stove and then get a gas stove installed in its place once all the lumber / dimensional wood is gone.


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## Renovation (Nov 8, 2010)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

> Even my exterior walls usually read close to 72º on the IR gun, so I guess my house structure is doing OK. I hope that's the _interior_ surface. ;-)  If so, it sounds like your insulation indeed rocks.
> 
> I don't like to look at it because I'll just get upset that I can't get NG here.  I can't get NG either, but I like to look at it (actually the identical version on this site), to see how much wood saves me over propane.
> 
> Interesting, though, is that they say with a 70% efficient stove I will burn 5.42 cord/year.  Well, I burn just under 6 cord now, so why should I invest thousands of dollars to save half a cord/year?   [Cue Captain Anal Retentive!]  Those figures are for a "normal" house, not yours. ;-)  unless you've multiplied by a factor to correct for your own heating load?  The calculator shows relative costs, not actual for you, so you need to apply the proportions to your own usage to estimate your own savings.  E.G 20% savings is 20% savings.



I'm one of the lucky ones who can't get NG, so I can be all happy about saving money with wood heat.   :roll:


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## cycloxer (Nov 8, 2010)

SufficientSelf.com said:
			
		

> Thanks for all the replies everyone!    Sounds like there is a pretty big consensus that when comparing natural gas vs. paying for wood, natural gas is almost always cheaper.



...it all depends what you pay for the wood!


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## SufficientSelf.com (Nov 8, 2010)

Unfortunately where I live I'd have a hard time finding anything worth burning for less than $150 a cord, and that is more or less break even with natural gas in this area.


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## Dexter (Nov 8, 2010)

There is no doubt that it is cheaper to burn wood.  

But:  Handling the wood when it is bucked, again when split, when loading the truck, when stacking it at home, when taking it to the stove, and when loading the fire -- that's 6 or more times.  Then cleaning the flu and chimney, the extra dusting of the ash around the stove, and sweeping the bark from inside of the house...and the occasional cleaning of the glass...and emptying the ash drawer.  How about refurbishing and regasketing the stove every several years?  Maintaining the saw, sharpening the chain... Now, how much does all this cost?  

I don't know, and I don't care; it is a peaceful and soothing ritual -- even when the chainsaw is runningl!!  And on those nights the power goes out, all our efforts are redeemed 1000 time over.  I love it, God, I love it.


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## kenny chaos (Nov 8, 2010)

The cost of burning cheap/free wood will become overly expensive in your mature years.  Let's not be so myopic when discussing the "facts."
How many people have one chain saw that lasts them 25 years.  Yeah I know, a few.  But you can bet that most wood burners spend a whole lot more money than they ever admit.
The propane man will be here at 9:00 a.m. tomorrow in prep for the new supplemental heater and I can't wait!


EDIT-  That shoulda read that burning wood is cheap and fun.


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## Backwoods Savage (Nov 8, 2010)

You are right Kenny. It has been said I am in my "mature years" although my wife says I'm into my second childhood. So maybe it is costing me more?!

I still cut my own wood and did purchase our present chain say about 10 years ago. But, the gas and oil definitely does cost more than it did back in 1958 or so. But does it? My earnings was not just a little bit smaller back then and although I could buy a 5 gallon can of gas for a dollar, I had to work a long time for that dollar. 

Maybe I do spend a whole lot more money than I admit but have no idea where that money is going. We have a tendency to put the dollars we save by burning wood into the bank and then it draws interest (not much, sadly) but we could also go the other way and say I am too old to cut wood and do all that other work that is involved. So, let's say I bought my wood. At present I could but dry ash, the same type stuff we already burn for $40. per face cord or $120 per cord. That would mean it would cost us $360 per year to heat our house. Maybe that is more than we'd like to admit.

Oh yes, Kenny, I have had a couple saws last over 25 years. I still have one in the barn that is older than that; I just perfer this new one. The days of me running a saw with a 36" cutting bar is past; thank God for that!

Our propane man left in disgust years ago.


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## North of 60 (Nov 8, 2010)

SufficientSelf.com said:
			
		

> Unfortunately where I live I'd have a hard time finding anything worth burning for less than $150 a cord, and that is more or less break even with natural gas in this area.



Unfortunately where I live NG is not an option. Until then, oil is almost $5 a gal so I will stick to burning my pine/poplar and spruce. People pay $225 a cord for it here and it will actually be, beetle kill spruce dropped off in rounds. I can haul it for $65 and cut at the landing. Off and on I will scrounge standing dead from the local bush with a legal free permit. That wood will be lodge pole pine that I call Yukon Oak.


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## kenny chaos (Nov 8, 2010)

Backwoods Savage said:
			
		

> You are right Kenny. It has been said I am in my "mature years" although my wife says I'm into my second childhood. So maybe it is costing me more?!
> 
> I still cut my own wood and did purchase our present chain say about 10 years ago. But, the gas and oil definitely does cost more than it did back in 1958 or so. But does it? My earnings was not just a little bit smaller back then and although I could buy a 5 gallon can of gas for a dollar, I had to work a long time for that dollar.
> 
> ...





And we should all sit while splitting because it's easier for you that way. :roll:


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## Backwoods Savage (Nov 8, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Stevebass4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




BeGreen I have made the same points in a different way. 

Why, during summer months, folks can't wait for the temperatures to be above (sometimes way above, like 90+), yet, when winter comes they don't want their homes to be over 70 degrees?!! I've never quite figured this out.

It gets to the point that many will mock me when I say we keep out home around 80 degrees in the winter. 

Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy the lower temperatures, so long as it is outdoors. As for 85+, that is when we turn the air conditioner on.


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## Dexter (Nov 8, 2010)

I like lodgepole, North.  It burns well compared to other pines, and I love the smell of it as it dries in the Autumn.  

All:  I'm pushing 60, and my brothers are 65 & 70, and still cut our own.  I think it's the wood burning -- and all the related tasks -- which that keeps us young.  It's fun, whether cheap, or not.


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## Backwoods Savage (Nov 8, 2010)

kenny chaos said:
			
		

> Backwoods Savage said:
> 
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Wrong again Kenny. You should not split that way because it is easier for me. You should split that way because it is easier to split that way (not just for me).


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## spirilis (Nov 8, 2010)

Around here the difference between hating the extreme heat in the summer and liking the extreme heat in the winter is one of humidity.

Summers here are warm and muggy, disgustingly humid at times.  Just miserable.
In the wintertime with the stove going the living room could be in the 80's and maybe 90's (80's back at the thermostat) but as dry as an arizona summer.  I can deal with that.  I can also deal with the high temps in the summer when it's that dry too.  It just doesn't happen very often.


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## kenny chaos (Nov 8, 2010)

Backwoods Savage said:
			
		

> kenny chaos said:
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I think I'm starting to get it Dennis.  Nope, it's gone.
Just can't make sense of some people eh Dennis?

Keep Smiling-


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## fire_man (Nov 8, 2010)

woodgeek said:
			
		

> *A lot of us back east do not have gas as an option*.



Yup, that's the truth, gas is not available here. It's oil or wood for us. I personally don't want gas in my house anyway. Oil is way to expensive right now and wood is the most fun anyway.


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## 48rob (Nov 9, 2010)

> All:  I’m pushing 60, and my brothers are 65 & 70, and still cut our own.  I think it’s the wood burning—and all the related tasks—which that keeps us young



Sure is a lot of truth in that thought!

From my perspective, folks that sit in rocking chairs soon graduate to comfy satin lined caskets.

Rob, 51 and going out of my way to find more work to do to stay limber.


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## Battenkiller (Nov 9, 2010)

Grisu said:
			
		

> I am not an insulation expert but when your exterior wall is as warm as your interior, are you sure your house has good insulation?



I meant the inside surfaces of the exterior walls, not the outside surfaces.   If the other was true, I'd have a lot more problems than poor insulation.:lol:


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## joshlaugh (Nov 9, 2010)

Not sure I would ever be able to pay $300/cord.  I work pretty hard making contacts in my county to get phone calls to cut and haul trees. so  I don't ever pay for firewood.   This fall I got permission to remove all dead and dying trees from a 10 acre woodlot that hasn't been cleared in over 20 years.  At least 3 ash trees over 30"dbh.  Lots of free wood and good times enjoying the weather.    I recently saw an ad in Columbus(30 min west of me) for 30 cords of wood, cut to length but not split for $1200. THat would be a good deal for someone who could move and stove that much wood.  Hey Wkpoor-we just need you to get out of Fairfield County more!  I tell all my buddies down that way to come up to God's country here in Licking county to cut down some real big trees.


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## wkpoor (Nov 9, 2010)

joshlaugh said:
			
		

> Hey Wkpoor-we just need you to get out of Fairfield County more!  I tell all my buddies down that way to come up to God's country here in Licking county to cut down some real big trees.


Hahahaerhehehe. This is like the North and South of 70 thing. Not sure either of us is in God's country but Fairfield IMO is closer hehe. 
My my this thread has taken a turn.
Hears my take. I burn wood because I like the warmth and cutting firewood is my hobby. I tell peopel if you don't like gathering your own wood then to me its like owning a big yard and don't like to mow. Guess you'll have to pay then.
My own boss asked me one time where to get firewood. I told him where all the free he could load was. He replied I must be crazy if I thought he would do that. He wants it delivered And to tell you the truth......it just might be cheaper that way. Lets see......20K for tractor w/BoDozer grapple ( so I can just bring home logs and never have to bend over to cut a log), about 3k worth of chainsaws and realted stuff, custom built 3pt splitter ( w/awsome cycle speed), chains, cables, safety gear, 14K 24' deckover trailer to haul tractor, dump trailer to haul logs, truck to pull trailers. WOW ad all that up and if I live to 100 I'll never amoritze it out. Yep it would be alot cheaper to buy 300.00 dollars a cord of wood hehehehehehehe. But I'll never do it, its just the principle of I want to feel like I'm saving money.


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## SolarAndWood (Nov 9, 2010)

wkpoor said:
			
		

> ...its like owning a big yard and don't like to mow. Guess you'll have to pay then...



Next topic:  Mowing your own lawn is more expensive than paying someone to do it


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## kenny chaos (Nov 9, 2010)

SolarAndWood said:
			
		

> wkpoor said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...







Obviously if you're green, you let your Thanksgiving goat do it and you don't even have to park it in the garage all winter.


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## fjord (Nov 9, 2010)

SufficientSelf.com said:
			
		

> Thanks for all the replies everyone!    Sounds like there is a pretty big consensus that when comparing natural gas vs. paying for wood, natural gas is almost always cheaper.
> 
> I feel like I'm back to square one with my heating the house decision.      It seems like we'll be leaning toward a nice free standing natural gas stove since compared to wood is more convenient, inexpensive, cleaner, and safer (since I won't be sawing / splitting free wood... before you say natural gas is more dangerous, keep in mind we already have it being used throughout our house).
> 
> We still have our crazy old and inefficient wood stove and a huge pile of old dimensional lumber / wood in the back yard.  I'm thinking I'll just burn this stuff in the old stove and then get a gas stove installed in its place once all the lumber / dimensional wood is gone.



No, NO, and NO.

NG is stihl a fossil fuel. It is not sustainable, carbon neutral, renewable. 
For the Excel in you do the numbers: the extraction, refining, transport, tax, installation, appliance in your home.
And yes, NG is explosive. Never seen a log explode.
One more point: with NG, LP, oil all you do is lick the stamp and envelope. Burn wood ? You get goodbody. You get intimate with your fuel. You do need that don't you ? :lol:


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## kenny chaos (Nov 9, 2010)

I got a feeling that if most people were in a different economic situation, they wouldn't be burning wood at all.


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## wkpoor (Nov 9, 2010)

kenny chaos said:
			
		

> I got a feeling that if most people were in a different economic situation, they wouldn't be burning wood at all.


Nope not me. I love my warm wood heat. If I were in a better economic situation I would just buy a new stove to try it out. I'll always be heating with wood as long as my insurance man will let me.


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## SolarAndWood (Nov 9, 2010)

wkpoor said:
			
		

> If I were in a better economic situation



I think Kenny was suggesting was that if we were in a worse economic situation, we wouldn't be able to afford wood heat


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## shawneyboy (Nov 9, 2010)

SolarAndWood said:
			
		

> wkpoor said:
> 
> 
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I don't think that is what he meant, I think he meant the opposite.  If oil goes to 120 a barrell and all other fossil fues, which are pegged to the falling in value US dollar continue to go up people won't be able to afford NOT heating with wood.

For me I am in a good spot financially and yet I still burn wood.  I like the heat, the exercise, the self satisfaction. etc. etc. etc. and of course the savings.

I also like knowing that no matter what happens to the economy, the dollar exchange rate, or the supply of oil, I have got 3-4 years of nice warm, comfortable heat sitting in my back yard.


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## CarbonNeutral (Nov 9, 2010)

On top of all this is that with wood you heat differently - closing off rooms, etc. that is more challenging to do with other forms of heating: https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/62583/#714165


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## SolarAndWood (Nov 9, 2010)

shawneyboy said:
			
		

> SolarAndWood said:
> 
> 
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Sorry, the delivery of the sarcasm was a little dry.


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## kenny chaos (Nov 9, 2010)

SolarAndWood said:
			
		

> shawneyboy said:
> 
> 
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Let's try another;
I have natural gas.


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## Backwoods Savage (Nov 9, 2010)

I do too Kenny but the doctor gave me something which should lessen it a bit.


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## tiber (Nov 9, 2010)

I read the entire thread here, I feel like there's some missing observations to be made. Namely, CTO of each system. 

Yeah wood is cheaper when you compare straight up BTUs. It becomes more obviously cheaper when you're in my situation and your oil burner is 10 years old and it's a mess. For reference, straight up oak is $120 a cord here if you're willing to make the calls and I was able to scrounge just over a cord last week simply by surfing craigslist. Pellets tend to be $250/ton from lowes depot and about $200 otherwise.

The problem, of course, is that your oil burner is going to need about $100 of service a year. Figure that into the price of oil. I don't know ANYONE who takes their own apart and cleans it. Your wood heater is going to require you to brush it out, and maybe spend $100 on a cat every 10 years or whatever (YMMV). So figure that into the price of wood. 

But, where I live in PA, you have to rent a propane or CNG tank. You're allowed to own one, but it has to be pressure tested every five years(?) and so no-one does, including the guys across the street from me who got suckered into the marketing material only to see their bills go higher on fuel costs alone. So figure the tank rental into the cost of your device. All these things add up.

Bottom line, even if you're not interested in using the calcs, you can get it for free. Not only can you get it for free but it's efficient and an effective means of heating your house. I've been getting the hang of my VC, and I'm starting to get overnight burns where the upstairs is 73F. That's 5F warmer than we used to keep it on oil, and more on the point each night I do that is free. Oil costs me $2.75/gallon. If I use 5 gallons a night to heat my house, that's $15. Work the math that way and you can see just how bad your oil burner is. It might be 90% efficient at the burner, but you still got to get the heat out of the basement. I convinced my wife (before she was a convert) by taping all the oil bills to the fridge. It's frightening how much money goes out the door when you do that.


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## kenny chaos (Nov 9, 2010)

tiber said:
			
		

> Bottom line, even if you're not interested in using the calcs, you can get it for free. Not only can you get it for free but it's efficient and an effective means of heating your house. .






What a hoot.  Nothing is free and being a space heater, MOST people cannot heat their house.


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## logger (Nov 9, 2010)

My wood's all free.  Just gotta do the work myself, which I usually enjoy.  If I did have to buy wood, a guy down the road sells cords for $140 if you pick it up yourself.  We have propane forced hot air, but I refuse to pay for that crap.  All wood heat, all cold season at our house.


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## Rich L (Nov 9, 2010)

I've seen times when a business will come in low x out the competition then when in control jack up the prices.I wonder what would happen if a great many wood burns gave up wood burning for the low gas prices at the  present.Would they raise the gas prices after they get you in their pocket?I say don't fall for the okey doke and leaves yourself vulnerable.


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## tiber (Nov 9, 2010)

That's how it goes. They got a promo where they don't have to pay rent on the tank for the first three years on a five year lease. Did I mention that you can't fill it with another companies propane?


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## Renovation (Nov 9, 2010)

Rich L said:
			
		

> I've seen times when a business will come in low x out the competition then when in control jack up the prices.I wonder what would happen if a great many wood burns gave up wood burning for the low gas prices at the  present.Would they raise the gas prices after they get you in their pocket?I say don't fall for the okey doke and leaves yourself vulnerable.



That's a very wise observation, Rich, and one of the classic scenarios taught in economics--a monopolist underpricing the competition to bankrupt them, then raising prices once the competition is gone.  In fact, competition forces all companies to keep their prices low.  So wood burners help everyone, by increasing competition, and reducing demand for other energy sources.   :coolsmile:


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## iceman (Nov 9, 2010)

There are many variables to this and the answer will very from situation to situation, 
There are some very good points but there is no "national" winner is this contest..... although I have cut oil consumption from 1000 gallons to 150 or less... but I also added insulation so the diff Prolly isn't as large ... but my gas bill goes up 25 bucks a month for the gas fireplace, which is on a thermostat heating about 300 sq ft ...   
Bottom line.... for me wood is a lot cheaper ... now if oil went below $2 a gallon ..... wood would still win I just wouldn't cringe if I hear the furnace kick on


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## Rich L (Nov 9, 2010)

RenovationGeorge said:
			
		

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 Ya Amen to that.There used to be many more mom and pop drug stores,hardware stores,and grocerys before the big chains iced them out.Now comes the energy con.Woodburners may have a powerful influence on keeping the gas prices low.If they go too high on gas prices at this time they'll just push folks towards wood burners.I know their greed lust is just burning them up from not being able to get those high returns that corporations drool for.


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## kenny chaos (Nov 9, 2010)

iceman said:
			
		

> There are many variables to this and the answer will very from situation to situation,
> There are some very good points but there is no "national" winner is this contest..... although I have cut oil consumption from 1000 gallons to 150 or less... but I also added insulation so the diff Prolly isn't as large ... but my gas bill goes up 25 bucks a month for the gas fireplace, which is on a thermostat heating about 300 sq ft ...
> Bottom line.... for me wood is a lot cheaper ... now if oil went below $2 a gallon ..... wood would still win I just wouldn't cringe if I hear the furnace kick on




So if all things were equal, you'd buy oil.


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## iceman (Nov 9, 2010)

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Lol I like burning wood ,  but if all were equal  I would jump to solar!  
I like my setup have many options but wood is the most satisfying... when I stack pellets they don't look as good as my wood stacks .... I don't know what I would do without a wood stove I have had one in every house I have lived in.........


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## BrotherBart (Nov 9, 2010)

One fact is that with all of the new gas discoveries and recovery techniques NG is gonna be cheap for a good while into the foreseeable future. The only thing that is gonna hold the price up is industrial and electricity generation moving to it because it is cheap.


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## shawng111 (Nov 10, 2010)

Whenever we get a really good cold snap, everyone of my family and freinds start complaining of there heating bill regardless if its NG, LP, or oil, I just sit back and laugh a little to myself, for me I like not having to worry about the next cold spell or even more having not to worry about the next catastrophe so they can raise prices to whatever the gas or electric company wants, I'll leave that part to me.


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## kenny chaos (Nov 10, 2010)

Shawn G said:
			
		

> Whenever we get a really good cold snap, everyone of my family and freinds start complaining of there heating bill regardless if its NG, LP, or oil, I just sit back and laugh a little to myself, for me I like not having to worry about the next cold spell or even more having not to worry about the next catastrophe so they can raise prices to whatever the gas or electric company wants, I'll leave that part to me.







And I bet it's your family and friends who are having fun while you're "enjoying" getting next years wood processed.


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## SufficientSelf.com (Nov 10, 2010)

Some of the replies in this thread make me chuckle because it seems like some have missed the point of my post regarding the cost of wood vs. gas.   I guess posting in a wood stove community will lean towards a few with a bias regardless of the facts.    The fact for me:   Heating with wood is more expensive than heating with natural gas... that's simple math.   Wood is great, but the math of the economics looks simple.

So, until I decide exactly how I'm going to most economically heat my house I'm just gonna keep using our old and inefficient wood stove.

(pic taken 15 mins ago)


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## fjord (Nov 10, 2010)

kenny chaos said:
			
		

> What a hoot.  Nothing is free and being a space heater, MOST people cannot heat their house.



Kenny, Kenny, Kenny, you are spending too much time on your butt online. Step away from the computer.  Here's the pitch.

Get 10 crisp, new $100. dollar bills from your local bank. Get into your black beemer, and drive due east. The bills are for us when you see with your own eyes a ~1800ft² home designed around
two wood stoves. There are two (count 'em, "2" ) bathrooms w flush Toto toilets , shower and sink. One open plan kitchen with microwave, large sink, LP gas stove, dishwasher.
In a utility room the waterpump ass'y, LP Rinnai tankless water heater, clothes washer and LP dryer. ALL "space" heated by two wood stoves. There is (inconvenient truth) a small LP space heater in 1/2 the house for winter days away that will bring the temp of the 1/2 with plumbing (the other has no water pipes) up to barely 50 F @ 20 F outside temperature.

Most who choose to use wood, can and do heat their homes 24/7. It's a gestault Kenny. 

For another 10 crisp, new $100. bills I will personally hold your hand and escort you to three (count 'em "3" ) architect designed larger homes (market value +/- 1 million ) with a Tarm, and Masonry Stoves for heating.


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## SolarAndWood (Nov 10, 2010)

SufficientSelf.com said:
			
		

> (pic taken 15 mins ago)



can't get that out of a forced air furnace...  if you have to pay for wood, it is a commodity that is priced against your next best alternative.  commodities markets are pretty efficient, even firewood.  However, I and many others recycle wood that someone would otherwise have to pay to dispose of.  If you are fortunate enough to live in an area where this is possible and position yourself to take advantage of it, wood heat can be nearly free.  My long term average is $15 out of pocket and 4 hours per cord.  And, that 4 hours per cord is not subject to income tax.  Granted, if I had access to natural gas and had not gotten into a pissing match with the propane man, I probably would still be a couple face cord per year for ambiance burner.


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## ddddddden (Nov 10, 2010)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasland http://gaslandthemovie.com     To provide you with "cheap" fossil fuel, the NG co's appear to be ruining many aquifers on which folks depend for clean water. Maybe this cost should be considered too.


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## carlo (Nov 10, 2010)

I have a gas fireplace that can heat my family room nice, but I rarely use it because I mainly heat the house with natural gas set at 66 degrees. I have a wood burning stove that heats my living room and upstairs bedrooms really nice. After reading this thread I was wondering if I used my gas fireplace in the living room more and turned down my nat gas thermostat down to say 63 degrees would I be saving significant dollars ?  The main floor of my house is about 1800 sq ft.  I ask this because I read in a post that when nat gas burns in a central furnace the cost is much more expensive vs a pilot burner in a gas fireplace.


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## kenny chaos (Nov 10, 2010)

fjord said:
			
		

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You're a liar.  You're on a different planet!  You're talking about houses "designed around two wood stoves."
Tarms and masonary stoves are hardly common woodstoves.
No kidding there's always exceptions but YOU are not one of them.
Most who choose to use wood DO want to believe they heat their homes 24/7 and in fact, they can't.
Judge me for spending too much time on my butt?
Your ignorance is hilarious.
Thanks for learning me the truth.


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## Renovation (Nov 10, 2010)

<never mind--Moderator please delete>


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## shawng111 (Nov 10, 2010)

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Actually I do enjoy harvesting my wood, some might think thats crazy but that is my fun, I would rather split wood with my Fiskars than go to the movies or shopping, "fun" as you describe it is in the eye of the beholder, and as an added bonus heats my house as well all winter long without the propane guy coming down my driveway


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## cycloxer (Nov 10, 2010)

SelfSufficient - You make very good points and you are thinking it through before you pull the trigger. Understood. I heat my house with both natural gas and wood. I like having both. The natural gas is certainly convenient, cost effective, and easy to use. Based on my math, my wood stove is still a bit cheaper to operate, but not by too much as I buy most of my wood. Also, I cannot predict future NG and wood prices, so I have a bit of a hedge between the two.

I like having a nice warm stove running in the living room. It's a nice way to heat the home and I enjoy the whole process. It's great to have a wood stove as your heat source in the middle of an ice storm in New England where the power can go out for days. It's also nice around the holiday season. I can't fully explain it, but nothing heats your home quite like a wood stove. It provides a soft, reassuring, comforting warmth. The members on this board surely know what I mean. Maybe it is just because we crank our stoves up enough to get the room into the 70's!

Wood stoves can also be messy with ash, wood chips, dirt, water, and bugs going everywhere. Everyone has their own method to deal with these issues. Wood stoves aren't for everyone. If you are careful, you can operate them relatively clean, but this is not an antiseptic heat source, if you get my point. It involves a bit of work from splitting, stacking, drying, and hauling your wood. C'est la vie. You either love it or you weren't cut out for wood burning...


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## kenny chaos (Nov 10, 2010)

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It's certainly more fun than shopping or going to the movies but i'd rather be riding my bike, fishing, shooting hoops, or laying on the couch with a bag of chips. ;-)


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## kenny chaos (Nov 10, 2010)

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It's certainly more fun than shopping or going to the movies but i'd rather be riding my bike, fishing, shooting hoops, or laying on the couch with a bag of chips. ;-) 
Ya see, once you depend on it, you're no longer processing in your freetime.


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## shawng111 (Nov 10, 2010)

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While I would not agree with you, my children on the other hand would, hopeing to change that some day,......... some day, most likely when they get there first heating bill in there name. :lol:


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## fjord (Nov 10, 2010)

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## BrotherBart (Nov 10, 2010)

Take it to PMs to argue guys. This one is closed.


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