# Propane Price Lock in Rate is a Joke



## bogieb (Jun 2, 2015)

So my propane company just tried to get me to lock in at $3.44/gallon. Plus, I would enjoy the convenience fee of $119 to lock in the price. Ha, I haven't used the 150 gallons I got in December yet.

Now I just have to find someplace I can actually buy a propane tank - preferably 250 gal, but could go 500 gal if push came to shove - then have it delivered and set up. Then I can tell Amerig*s to KMA, come get their tank and go away (I inherited that company when I bought this place). Of course last time I did that, at my previous house, they gave me a service charge equal to what the propane in the tank was worth. I still have 35% of a 500 gallon tank, so will have to wait a while to replace tank. And, I have a feeling they are gonna start charging me rent - arrgghh, I hate them.

Pellets prices still look mighty good to me!


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## boo boo (Jun 2, 2015)

My neighbor has propane not sure what size tank but he says its over 700 sometimes 800 each time to fill it
Pellets do look good compared to that


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## cachunko (Jun 2, 2015)

Wood looks even better if you have a place to cut for free and don't mind a little work.  I spent approx $200 to heat my house last winter


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## fire_man (Jun 2, 2015)

I'm no lawyer, but it seems strange you entered into an automatic contract with this company by virtue of buying the house.

I'd want to read the fine print on that one.


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## bogieb (Jun 2, 2015)

cachunko said:


> Wood looks even better if you have a place to cut for free and don't mind a little work.  I spent approx $200 to heat my house last winter



I burned wood at my previous house and much prefer pellets. I'm not spending the dollars to cut a hole in my brand new standing seam roof to put in a chimney. Nor do I have a place to cut wood, or the equipment - the EX got all that (and he's welcome to it). And, that presupposes that I could find a place big enough in my 950 sq/ft that I have clearances to put in a woodstove;  I literally don't have the space unless I put it where my stairs are (which kinda makes for other problems ). So, all-in-all, I'm okay with what I have.


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## cachunko (Jun 2, 2015)

There are times I'd much prefer to dump in a bag of pellets, so I totally don't blame ya there.  Cutting wood is a tough job sometimes.  My dad heats with corn.  He just goes out, fills a bag of corn, and dumps it in.  Often times I wish I had that luxury


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## Pete Zahria (Jun 2, 2015)

cachunko said:


> Wood looks even better if you have a place to cut for free and don't mind a little work.


Yabutt not many have that option...
A choice between buying wood, or buying pellets, pellets would win in my book.
Even where it is a few dollars more..
Coal beats them both, though... 

Dan


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## MCPO (Jun 3, 2015)

Whatever works for you at the time is the right fuel.
 I burned wood for 12+ yrs and loved it but advancing age and a bad back caused me to switch.
Pellets are working right now but I sure wish I had natural gas on the street. I`d be doing a conversion real quick like.


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## maple1 (Jun 3, 2015)

bogieb said:


> So my propane company just tried to get me to lock in at $3.44/gallon. Plus, I would enjoy the convenience fee of $119 to lock in the price. Ha, I haven't used the 150 gallons I got in December yet.
> 
> Now I just have to find someplace I can actually buy a propane tank - preferably 250 gal, but could go 500 gal if push came to shove - then have it delivered and set up. Then I can tell Amerig*s to KMA, come get their tank and go away (I inherited that company when I bought this place). Of course last time I did that, at my previous house, they gave me a service charge equal to what the propane in the tank was worth. I still have 35% of a 500 gallon tank, so will have to wait a while to replace tank. And, I have a feeling they are gonna start charging me rent - arrgghh, I hate them.
> 
> Pellets prices still look mighty good to me!


 

What all do you use the propane for?


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## moey (Jun 3, 2015)

fire_man said:


> I'm no lawyer, but it seems strange you entered into an automatic contract with this company by virtue of buying the house.
> 
> I'd want to read the fine print on that one.



They own the tank in his yard that is where the agreement came from. Get rid of the tank and the agreement goes away.


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## 3650 (Jun 3, 2015)

lock in is $1.27 here.

make sure you are home when they come get it. 10 years ago when I told them to come get mine, they cut down two trees to get to it. Its taken that long to get my shade back on the Wes side of my house. They also tore up the line that was buried in the ground.


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## the pony boy (Jun 3, 2015)

My pre pay is 2.44.


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## billb3 (Jun 4, 2015)

fire_man said:


> I'm no lawyer, but it seems strange you entered into an automatic contract with this company by virtue of buying the house.
> 
> I'd want to read the fine print on that one.



At closing utilities responsibilities are usually addressed in some manner. I had 3 to 7 days to get everything put in my name last time. Signed some paper ( may even have had a latin name )   promising to get er done.


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## bogieb (Jun 4, 2015)

maple1 said:


> What all do you use the propane for?


DHW, cook stove and FHW boiler (didn't use it this year as I got all my heat from pellet stoves). But, can't get rid of boiler since I regularaly take a week out of town in Dec or Jan, so need the back up heat.


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## bogieb (Jun 4, 2015)

moey said:


> They own the tank in his yard that is where the agreement came from. Get rid of the tank and the agreement goes away.



Need to get a tank and so far, haven't found anyone who sells them (I've heard they go for a pretty penny too - don't know how accurate that is). Then there is transport and install and testing. still have 35% in this tank.


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## bogieb (Jun 4, 2015)

billb3 said:


> At closing utilities responsibilities are usually addressed in some manner. I had 3 to 7 days to get everything put in my name last time. Signed some paper ( may even have had a latin name )   promising to get er done.



Amerig*s owns the tank. I can't legally let anyone else put propane in it - and since it has their name and disclaimers on the tank, no reputable dealer would touch it anyway. I know how they operate so don't want to try to swap to my own tank, or someone else's until that darn thing is empty (which I'm afraid would be middle of winter - not good). They WILL charge me an excessive removal and service charge fee. I can't imagine what they would charge me to remove a 500 gal tank since when I had them remove a 100# tank in 2002, they charge $46.xx (amazingly, the same value as the gas left in cylinder). Plus, their contract states that if they have to remove over a certain amount of gas from the tank (I don't remember the number), I get hit with even more extra charges.


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## bogieb (Jun 4, 2015)

fire_man said:


> I'm no lawyer, but it seems strange you entered into an automatic contract with this company by virtue of buying the house.
> 
> I'd want to read the fine print on that one.



I didn't get an automatic contract by buying the house. I signed up for lock in last summer at $3.11, since the previous winter I had been paying over $5/gallon. They were trying to automatically renew my lock in at this year's price. I called them and told them I wasn't going to lock in this year. I have to go check to make sure they took the charge off my account.


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## Peterfield (Jun 4, 2015)

bogieb said:


> Need to get a tank and so far, haven't found anyone who sells them (I've heard they go for a pretty penny too - don't know how accurate that is). Then there is transport and install and testing. still have 35% in this tank.



I believe Tractor Supply sells tanks.  Others are Allen & Matthewson in Peterborough, Suburban Propane in Milford, and other propane companies.  Some propane companies sell them but they will want you to rent so stick to your guns.  Sometimes you can buy the tank already in the ground from your existing propane company rather than have them dig it out and pay to put your own in.


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## bogieb (Jun 4, 2015)

Peterfield said:


> I believe Tractor Supply sells tanks.  Others are Allen & Matthewson in Peterborough, Suburban Propane in Milford, and other propane companies.  Some propane companies sell them but they will want you to rent so stick to your guns.  Sometimes you can buy the tank already in the ground from your existing propane company rather than have them dig it out and pay to put your own in.


Don't want the existing tank - it is very old, rusted and always has a faint odor of propane around it at all times (it's above ground and they say it is fine). Tractor Supply doesn't sell big enough tanks - or at least not according to the website. They are supposed to build one around here at some point, so will probably wait until they come in to check on availability of larger tanks. I don't want a 40 mile delivery charge to get one from another store. At the rate I don't use propane, figure I have at least a year's supply in the current tank.


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## bogieb (Jun 4, 2015)

3650 said:


> lock in is $1.27 here.
> 
> make sure you are home when they come get it. 10 years ago when I told them to come get mine, they cut down two trees to get to it. Its taken that long to get my shade back on the Wes side of my house. They also tore up the line that was buried in the ground.



Fortunately (or unfortunately for my view), the tank is in the middle of my side yard - between my house and vegie garden. the would have to tear down a shed or my house before they could find a tree on that side of the house (actually, they would have to take down an electric pole if they took the tree down).

Unfortunately, when I put in a replacement tank, it really can't go anywhere else and be accessible for both filling and transporting the propane between the tank and my house, so my view on that side of the house will still suck. The gas inlet pipe runs to along the back of the house (almost all 40 ft) and then into the basement where the boiler and HW heater are. The tank cannot go on that side of the house and if I moved it anywhere else, it would be even further than the 60 or so feet the line has to run now. I really wish I had looked closer at the utility hook-ups (all of them, the electrical hook up is in a sucky place too) more closely and understood the ramifications before buying this house!

My whining is done for now


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## maple1 (Jun 4, 2015)

Sounds like you use very little propane, and just having a tank there is a PITA in general.

I would spend some time pondering not using propane at all, and switching to maybe electric. That's what I did, except the electric replaced oil not propane. Some glad I sent the oil tank & man down the road, should have done it years ago....


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## ccmac (Jun 4, 2015)

Approx $1.00 per gallon here in southwest Indiana.


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## MadMax31 (Jun 4, 2015)

Wow, 2.19 prebuy "deal". A competitor was charging 1.69 during -20 snap in Feb.


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## bogieb (Jun 5, 2015)

maple1 said:


> Sounds like you use very little propane, and just having a tank there is a PITA in general.
> 
> I would spend some time pondering not using propane at all, and switching to maybe electric. That's what I did, except the electric replaced oil not propane. Some glad I sent the oil tank & man down the road, should have done it years ago....



I have been thinking about it. Don't know if it would affect the perceived value of the house (one way or the other) if I decided to sell later. But, it would get all those pesky FHW pipes out of my way and I wouldn't have to run the boiler 2-3x/day during really cold weather to make sure they don't freeze (pipes run thru unheated garage). I also have trouble with spending the $$ to convert, but you did give me a good reminder that maybe that is the way to go and I should think more deeply about it before I go and get a hug, self-owned propane tank. I could then just buy a 100# bottle for my gas stove (love cooking with gas, hate electric), but that would be much more versatile on where I could place it.


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## maple1 (Jun 5, 2015)

bogieb said:


> I have been thinking about it. Don't know if it would affect the perceived value of the house (one way or the other) if I decided to sell later. But, it would get all those pesky FHW pipes out of my way and I wouldn't have to run the boiler 2-3x/day during really cold weather to make sure they don't freeze (pipes run thru unheated garage). I also have trouble with spending the $$ to convert, but you did give me a good reminder that maybe that is the way to go and I should think more deeply about it before I go and get a hug, self-owned propane tank. I could then just buy a 100# bottle for my gas stove (love cooking with gas, hate electric), but that would be much more versatile on where I could place it.


 
On the perceived value part - sounds from your description that the current condition of the tank would be a negative impact on that. And maybe also in how where it sits affects how you can use the rest of the property. I'd have to think that a shiney new tank that has no ties to a propane company (the prospective new owner would own the tank) would be a lot more attractive to a new buyer than what is there now - if you wanted to still use propane.

I don't think I would yank any pipes inside or dismantle any part of your hot water system. Not many better ways to heat a house, comfort wise. If you wanted to not use them at all, I would just drain the system. But more likely, I would install a small electric boiler for infrequent backup use. Or for more frequent non-propane heat, maybe a mini-split system (that could also air condition). For DHW, an ordinary electric water tank heater is very economical - a HPWH even better, $/mo wise. I think as a new buyer I would consider redundancy or the ability to use different fuel/heat sources a plus.

Not all prospective buyers are created equal though.

(I think the smaller tank is a good idea if you want to use just a stove though, or maintain the ability to use propane...)


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## bogieb (Jun 5, 2015)

Around here electric rates are pretty high - when I was looking for a house, I wouldn't consider a house with electric heat. After doing a bit of research, neither will a good proportion of buyers in my area. And, after comparing relative costs per BTU, using 0.20/kwh for electric and 3.44/gal for propane, propane is still way cheaper than electric.

I would do much better to put in oil for the boiler & DHW and keeping a small tank for stove gas. Oil has much higher BTU's (even at $4.5/gal it beats out propane). At least I could place the oil tank next to the house instead of out in the middle of the yard. And, oil tanks aren't overly expensive to buy outright.

But then I have to buy a new boiler and run tubing/pipe from the tank to the far side of the basement.

Argghh, I can go around and around in my head like this for years


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## maple1 (Jun 5, 2015)

Keep in mind also there are varying types of electric heat.

I put an electric boiler in for back up heat, but only because we usually only need it for maybe 2 days a year (none last winter). I would certainly not use it for anything approaching regular use.

But heat pumps & mini-splits kind of throw this:

*And, after comparing relative costs per BTU, using 0.20/kwh for electric and 3.44/gal for propane, propane is still way cheaper than electric.*

at least partly out the window. Then adding in possible A/C use, and dehumidification (which a mini-split can also do) - even more to consider. Then there are factors of personal preference - example, I wouldn't keep LPG on site just for my stove. But LPG stoves are important to others (including yourself). LPG could also come in handy for a generator.

I would not go back to the days of heating DHW with oil though, pretty sure about that one.

Certainly no one size fits all solution.


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## jackbean53 (Jun 5, 2015)

before i would buy my own tank , i would line up a supplier . some propane suppliers will not fill a tank unless its theirs .


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## Tumpin' Wood (Jun 5, 2015)

I saw this on Business News Network this morning.  You may want to move.


It’s getting more difficult to sell propane and propane accessories in Edmonton. The spot price of Hank Hill’s hydrocarbon of choice has gone negative, forcing producers to open their wallets to get rid of excess inventory.

The Canadian National Energy Board (NEB) highlighted seasonally high Western Canadian inventories heading into May in their latest monthly report. The NEB later commented that current levels could more than double by the fall to match the region’s 9.4 million barrel storage limit.

“We’ve got a situation of oversupply in Western Canada. Natural gas producers have been much incented to go after liquids rich reserves in recent years. That’s created an excess of production,” said Raymond James analyst Steve Hansen.

However, it’s not quite time to grab the tank from under your Barbecue and pursue your dream of getting paid to man the grill. Propane distributors who buy at the wholesale rate and sell at retail are the big winners from the supply glut. Price breaks will slowly leak down to residential heating and barbecue buyers of the gas.

“If you are a consumer and you’re ready to fire up the BBQ this summer, you would expect to pay lower prices as the year progresses,” said Hansen.

More robust natural gas production in the U.S. is the main culprit behind the regional over-supply in Western Canada. Kinder Morgan called it quits with Canadian imports when they reversed the 1,900-mile Cochin pipeline that passes through Minnesota in 2014. Weaker industrial demand across Alberta has also played a role.

“Western Canada is effectively left with a regional pocket of propane that is largely trapped now with not a lot of local demand. That’s creating opportunities. There is a lot of export terminals now being proposed for the west coast of BC as well as the Pacific North West,” said Hansen.

He says improved domestic rail transport is the best option to relieve the pressure in the short term, as approvals lag for larger international terminals.


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## BrotherBart (Jun 5, 2015)

We have the same situation here. Nat gas storage is bursting at the seams. Nowhere for the gas to go or the propane by-product of processing it.


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## bogieb (Jun 6, 2015)

jackbean53 said:


> before i would buy my own tank , i would line up a supplier . some propane suppliers will not fill a tank unless its theirs .



That is a good point. I don't believe it would be a problem since there are lots of "little guys" selling propane in these parts (oil and propane being the way the majority of houses are heated in NH), but worth investigating to make sure.


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## SidecarFlip (Jun 9, 2015)

jackbean53 said:


> before i would buy my own tank , i would line up a supplier . some propane suppliers will not fill a tank unless its theirs .


 

Interesting and not exactly legal comment.  If you own the tank (I own 3-500 gallon tanks), any company can fill them, they may refuse but thats a matter of business, not regulation.  Some may request an ingtegrety test which they can do themselves for a minimal fee.  Some may go as far as to want to inspect the lines and usage appliances but I've never found that with any of the 3 suppliers I deal with, shopping on price alone because propane is propane, no matter who delivers it.

Filling an owned tank versuses a leased one, gives the owner freedom to choose and price shop.  A leased tank can only be filled by the supplier you lease from, in affect, price gouging.

No one in their right mind (unless they were really flush) would contract with a pellet supplier exclusively, everyone price shops, same applies to propane, at leat in my view.


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## SidecarFlip (Jun 9, 2015)

BrotherBart said:


> We have the same situation here. Nat gas storage is bursting at the seams. Nowhere for the gas to go or the propane by-product of processing it.


 
I heard the caverns in Sarnia, Ontario were full as well.  I hunt with one of my propane suppliers so I get the latest news on the gas front.


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## bogieb (Jun 10, 2015)

SidecarFlip said:


> No one in their right mind (unless they were really flush) would contract with a pellet supplier exclusively, everyone price shops, same applies to propane, at leat in my view.



I think the biggest issue with owning your own propane tank is a decent sized propane tank costs $1500-$2000 and then you have to get transportation (it won't fit in the back of my poor little Patriot - LOL, and wouldn't even fit in the bed of a pickup truck). Then you have all the hook ups, pressurizers and what-not. A 275 gallon Oil tank is a less than $500 at BBS, will fit in the bed of a regular sized pickup, and doesn't have much for installing the line (a filter and a petcock maybe?).

Also, propane tanks must be recertified every 12 years and if it flunks, there goes another couple of grand to buy a new one. Oil tanks don't have to be recertified, and they can routinely last 25 years.

The question is, can I recoup the ~$2k cost within a 12 year time span with savings realized by going to my own tank. At this point, probably not since I haven't even used 150 gallons since last December. Now, if I didn't have pellet stoves and still went thru 300-400 gallons of propane during the winter months, I'd have a better chance of at least breaking even.


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## maple1 (Jun 10, 2015)

*Oil tanks don't have to be recertified, and they can routinely last 25 years.*

Up here, insurance companies have something to say about that. That was one of the factors in me deciding to get rid of our oil stuff - we were due for a new tank in 2 years, so they said. My parents had to replace theirs again 3 years ago, 6 years after they had replaced it the last time. Not sure exactly why, something about constantly revising standards or something. Oil leaks/spills cost big bucks to clean up.


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## Peterfield (Jun 10, 2015)

Friend of mine bought is own 500 pound tank (underground model) and uses it for heat as well as a fuel for a generator if needed.  He said on minimal usage he guesstimates he could have power for two weeks on a full tank.  If your prone to power outages, just another reason to consider propane.


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## SidecarFlip (Jun 15, 2015)

Why I have multiple tanks.  I run the standby 17KW unit on propane too.  Sure is nice to have all the conveniences of utility power in the dead of winter or ac in the heat of summer when the utility out and it's out here, quite a bit.  My farm cannot function without electrons flowing.  Cattle need watered and toilets need flushed.  Portable generators don't cut the cheese IMO.


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## SidecarFlip (Jun 15, 2015)

I've always been leery of burying a bottle, in fact, Michigan don't allow it.  All bottles (tanks) must be above ground.  I just paint mine green.  They blend in with the trees well.


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## bogieb (Jun 16, 2015)

maple1 said:


> *Oil tanks don't have to be recertified, and they can routinely last 25 years.*
> 
> Up here, insurance companies have something to say about that. That was one of the factors in me deciding to get rid of our oil stuff - we were due for a new tank in 2 years, so they said. My parents had to replace theirs again 3 years ago, 6 years after they had replaced it the last time. Not sure exactly why, something about constantly revising standards or something. Oil leaks/spills cost big bucks to clean up.



Naturally I was only speaking for my neck of the woods. Propane tanks are regulated by state and federal laws, which require the recertifying, and propane companies cannot legally fill a tank that has not been certified more than 12 years after it was manufactured - and every 5 years after that.

My insurance company never said squat about my tank when I had oil at my last place (lived there 25 years).


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## SidecarFlip (Jun 16, 2015)

Thats typical of any pressurized bottle though propane tanks rarely attain pressures of over 100 psi.  I exchange welding bottles often for my business and all are date coded for certification/recertification and if you hit a date code experation, wham, you get accessed the testing fee.  With high pressure bottles, ie:  acetelyene, oxygen, tri-mix, argon, heilum or whatever, they are static tested by immersing in a tank of water with a known quantity.  The bottle is then pressurized to 150% of nominal rated pressure (ASTM) and then the displaced liquid in the tank is measured and if the displaced liquid is over a pre-determined value, the bottle is scrapped.

Propane tanks aren't tested by immersion,  They are physically checked for defects, excessive corrosion, and bad valves and if they fail inspection are not fit for filling.  Bad valves and checks can be replaced.  Excessive corrosion can't be repaired.

2 of my owned tanks (bottles) are at least as old as I am (65 years old) and both are in excellent condition.  The 3rd tank I bought as a AN refit tank, pulled the running gear and refit the valves.  If you purchase an AN nurse tank, all the AN must be evacuated from the tank (and the valving/checks) replaced prior to filling because AN is corrosive..

Little FYI there....


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## SidecarFlip (Jun 16, 2015)

Bogieb....

I spent the afternoon with one of the hunting group I hunt with, haqppened to be the guy who owns and operates the propane company I get my gas from (and no, I don't get any deals other than maybe an exrtended payment window if I'm real nice and let him shoot first, which I usually don't..lol)

Anyway, I'm not using pellets or corn this year, in fact, I have about 30 bags left from last year that I'll probably roast and thats it.

Propane here is at $1.09 a gallonand he told me on pre-buy it should be well below a buck.

I can't afford to buy pellets nor can I afford shelled corn at $3.56 a bushel when propane will be that low.  I'll be visiting on here and offering words of wisdom but the Bryant Plus 90 will be heating the house this winter.


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## bogieb (Jun 17, 2015)

SidecarFlip said:


> Bogieb....
> 
> I spent the afternoon with one of the hunting group I hunt with, haqppened to be the guy who owns and operates the propane company I get my gas from (and no, I don't get any deals other than maybe an exrtended payment window if I'm real nice and let him shoot first, which I usually don't..lol)
> 
> ...



Since we (NH) have to have all our propane shipped (train) and trucked in, it gets expensive quickly.  However, Amerig*s is just plain nuts on the price. Doesn't help that I don't use much, so I'm sure that figures in too for the price they are quoting me. I know that when I called other dealers the winter of 2013/2014 (to get a price point), their first question is "how much do you use a year?".

I certainly hope you visit regardless of how you heat - you are always good for bringing out points to think about as well as a laugh or two.


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## ScotL (Jun 17, 2015)

SidecarFlip said:


> Bogieb....
> 
> I spent the afternoon with one of the hunting group I hunt with, haqppened to be the guy who owns and operates the propane company I get my gas from (and no, I don't get any deals other than maybe an exrtended payment window if I'm real nice and let him shoot first, which I usually don't..lol)
> 
> ...


That's a better price than my rack price here (truckload pricing at 12,000 gallons per load).


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## SidecarFlip (Jun 17, 2015)

It's never been that low that I can remember and I've been here over 30 years.  My hunting buddy either gets it from Sarnia, Ontario (the caverns) or from the refinery in Toledo.  Guess I'd better have the HVAC company come out and 'tune up' the Bryant.

I figured I'd run corn this year, corn is pretty cheap (old crop) but it can't compare with propane.  If thats indicative of midwest pricing, won't be many around here using pellets this year.

I'm sure my friend has his markup built in.  He's not in the charity business after all.  Even if it was $1.50 on pre buy, thats cheaper than any alternative fuel (corn or pellets).  I'm real curious to see what pellets go for around here this year however.

More hunting money...lol


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## Arti (Jun 17, 2015)

Eighty to Ninety cents locally will likely burn more propane however we like the pellet stove so much that we will burn that in the evenings, 
It's not all about a few pennies if it makes us more comfy and we enjoy it.


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## SidecarFlip (Jun 19, 2015)

To me, heat is heat, derivived from pellets or propane or cordwood.  I'm into whats the least expensive..  Will be interesting to see how the pellet manufacturers respond, at least the ones that sell them domestically.  The exporters won't be impacted I suspect.  I'm reasonably sure that fuel oil will stay low this winter too.


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## Wooden Head (Jun 25, 2015)

SidecarFlip said:


> It's never been that low that I can remember and I've been here over 30 years.  My hunting buddy either gets it from Sarnia, Ontario (the caverns) or from the refinery in Toledo.  Guess I'd better have the HVAC company come out and 'tune up' the Bryant.
> 
> I figured I'd run corn this year, corn is pretty cheap (old crop) but it can't compare with propane.  If thats indicative of midwest pricing, won't be many around here using pellets this year.
> 
> ...


Just received the first offer for pre-buy in my area (whitehall., Michigan) Excel Propane is offering $1.59.


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## begreen (Jun 25, 2015)

I just went to fill a 100# tank at the local lumber store. They wanted $3.89/gal to fill it. Walked away and drove the truck to the Ace Hardware store nearby where it is $2.99 for the same thing. If I took the tank north of the Seattle area it is $1.59 to fill.


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## DougA (Jun 25, 2015)

There was an article just this morning in Canada on the glut of propane and how prices were about to plunge.  I use $30 per year on the BBQ so not a big deal to me.  Would love to replace the BBQ with a wood fired one but $30/yr is too cheap to worry about for just that one use.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/propane-prices-plunge-across-canada-as-bbq-season-begins-1.3123421


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## bogieb (Jun 25, 2015)

DougA said:


> There was an article just this morning in Canada on the glut of propane and how prices were about to plunge.  I use $30 per year on the BBQ so not a big deal to me.  Would love to replace the BBQ with a wood fired one but $30/yr is too cheap to worry about for just that one use.
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/propane-prices-plunge-across-canada-as-bbq-season-begins-1.3123421



I'm sure it will plunge for other areas, but they have to truck every bit of it to NH - then if you live in the boonies, they truck it some more, so I'm guessing the price won't go down much. Especially since I'm not going to be picking up my 500 gal tank and getting it filled at the hardware store.


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## SidecarFlip (Jun 25, 2015)

Peterfield said:


> Friend of mine bought is own 500 pound tank (underground model) and uses it for heat as well as a fuel for a generator if needed.  He said on minimal usage he guesstimates he could have power for two weeks on a full tank.  If your prone to power outages, just another reason to consider propane.


 

You mean 500 gallon tank, not pound.....


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## SidecarFlip (Jun 25, 2015)

begreen said:


> I just went to fill a 100# tank at the local lumber store. They wanted $3.89/gal to fill it. Walked away and drove the truck to the Ace Hardware store nearby where it is $2.99 for the same thing. If I took the tank north of the Seattle area it is $1.59 to fill.


 
I think I would have given them my 2 sent opinion about gouging before walking away....


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## SidecarFlip (Jun 25, 2015)

Wooden Head said:


> Just received the first offer for pre-buy in my area (whitehall., Michigan) Excel Propane is offering $1.59.


 
Thats too high for western Michigan, your gas is coming from Sarnia or East Chicago.  Gas right now (as of yesterday) was 96 cents a gallon retail.  Prebuy should be right at a buck or just a tad over that.

I cannot see pellets competing at all this winter at least around here and there are a bunch of pellet and corn burners eight around me...  I like it.  I'm used to spending a bundle on heat.  That won't happen this winter.


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## begreen (Jun 25, 2015)

SidecarFlip said:


> I think I would have given them my 2 sent opinion about gouging before walking away....


I did tell him politely though the minion at the pump has no control over the price. For all I know they are still pumping out of a large tank for which they actually paid a much higher price last fall.


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## SidecarFlip (Jun 25, 2015)

Being in business is all about adjusting prices to be competitive, I do it all the time and sometimes I take a bath but it always pans out inb the end.  If his price point is substantially higher than anyone else is locally, he might as well put it to flare, 'cause he ain't gonna sell it.....  The market is volitale so what he paid last fall don't reflect the current pricing.


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## begreen (Jun 25, 2015)

Not my circus, not my monkeys.


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## SidecarFlip (Jun 25, 2015)

Gonna take a real bath rowcropping this year.  Next year will be better...I hope.


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## Arti (Jun 25, 2015)

bogieb said:


> I'm sure it will plunge for other areas, but they have to truck every bit of it to NH - then if you live in the boonies, they truck it some more, so I'm guessing the price won't go down much. Especially since I'm not going to be picking up my 500 gal tank and getting it filled at the hardware store.



Would be nice if the delivery trucks would run on propain.


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## SidecarFlip (Jun 26, 2015)

Propane delivery trucks (local deliveries) mostly run on propane, not gasoline or diesel and most all propane is trucked from the bulk storage facility to the distribution center (dealer).  Very few dealers have rail spurs.  My dealer does but still trucks it, it's cheaper for a short haul.

At around 300 hundred a skid for pellets and 3.65/bu for shelled corn, with propane below $1.50 a gallon, propane is the clear winner, at least this year.


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## Pete Zahria (Jun 26, 2015)

SidecarFlip said:


> At around 300 hundred a skid for pellets and 3.65/bu for shelled corn, with propane below $1.50 a gallon, propane is the clear winner, at least this year.



Glad your propane is cheap. That is the way to go..
The average here taken June 1, is $2.70

So for a million BTU, here, it would be:
$36.95 for propane @$2.70
$24.68 for La Crete @$285
(approximately)

Dan


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## SidecarFlip (Jun 26, 2015)

I still have a skid in the barn so I'll probably roast them anyway.  Now if pellets are real cheap I may buy some but according to the industry magazines I get, all the new pellet mills (with the exception of Pine Tree) are all gearing up for export and not domestic production.  I'm waiting to get the TSC pellet pre-buy flier, then I'll know what the cost per skid is.  Candidly, I'm glad it's cheap too.  More money for hunting.


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## Wooden Head (Jun 27, 2015)

SidecarFlip said:


> Thats too high for western Michigan, your gas is coming from Sarnia or East Chicago.  Gas right now (as of yesterday) was 96 cents a gallon retail.  Prebuy should be right at a buck or just a tad over that.
> 
> I cannot see pellets competing at all this winter at least around here and there are a bunch of pellet and corn burners eight around me...  I like it.  I'm used to spending a bundle on heat.  That won't happen this winter.


I received the pre-buy from last seasons supplier(Wesco) @$1.599 .


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## SidecarFlip (Jun 27, 2015)

When I go up to my hunting property near Stanwood, I fuel my buggy at Wesco.  While 158.9 is higher than us, it's still appreciably cheaper per BTU than shelled corn or pellets (using last year's price on pellets from TSC ((Somersets)) and $3.50/bu shelled corn.


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## mithesaint (Jun 28, 2015)

SidecarFlip said:


> At around 300 hundred a skid for pellets and 3.65/bu for shelled corn, with propane below $1.50 a gallon, propane is the clear winner, at least this year.



Are you sure about this?  I agree with the pellet part of this, but not so sure with the corn.  As far as I can tell, there are somewhere between 350-400,000 BTU per bushel of corn, and approx 91,000 BTU per gallon of propane.  Assuming similar heating appliance efficiency, propane would have to be 1/4 the cost of corn to be more economical.  Now, if you're figuring in the work aspect of burning corn vs turning on the propane thermostat, that's a different story.


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## SidecarFlip (Jun 28, 2015)

Reasonably sure.  I didn't factor in delivery (of corn) charges, just the per bushel price or the fact that most stoves today cannot run straight corn (corn has to be mixed with pellets, usually in a 50-50 ratio (sometimes 75-25 but not straight, and the handling aspect.  Keep in mind that with propain, delivery cost is included in the price and storage in bottle is easier and less space than storage in a bin and handling to the stove.  Finally, riunning corn takes special vent pipe which is substantally more expensive.

I understand the mean output (BTU) of corn versus propane versus NG but factoring in the conveinence versus that added grief and labor of the other alternatives, propane at under or close to $1.50 a gallon is hard to beat, except piped in NG.  If I had NG, a pellet unit would never be a consideration.


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## Wooden Head (Jun 28, 2015)

SidecarFlip said:


> When I go up to my hunting property near Stanwood, I fuel my buggy at Wesco.  While 158.9 is higher than us, it's still appreciably cheaper per BTU than shelled corn or pellets (using last year's price on pellets from TSC ((Somersets)) and $3.50/bu shelled corn.


Sidecar
Where can I find the BTU conversion chat?


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## Grisu (Jun 28, 2015)

Wooden Head said:


> Sidecar
> Where can I find the BTU conversion chat?



Here for example: http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/techline/fuel-value-calculator.pdf


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## SidecarFlip (Jun 28, 2015)

My wife would much rather deal with the thermostat on the furnace than dump pellets and corn in a stove...of course I get to clean it anyway.  I had the heat on last night.  We have been getting pounded with rain and wind since early spring.  Got down to low 50's last night so I kicked on the furnace for a short....


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## mithesaint (Jun 30, 2015)

SidecarFlip said:


> Reasonably sure.  I didn't factor in delivery (of corn) charges, just the per bushel price or the fact that most stoves today cannot run straight corn (corn has to be mixed with pellets, usually in a 50-50 ratio (sometimes 75-25 but not straight, and the handling aspect.  Keep in mind that with propain, delivery cost is included in the price and storage in bottle is easier and less space than storage in a bin and handling to the stove.  Finally, riunning corn takes special vent pipe which is substantally more expensive.
> 
> I understand the mean output (BTU) of corn versus propane versus NG but factoring in the conveinence versus that added grief and labor of the other alternatives, propane at under or close to $1.50 a gallon is hard to beat, except piped in NG.  If I had NG, a pellet unit would never be a consideration.



Agreed.  I was looking at it from a cost/btu basis.  All those other factors are very individual.  I'm set up to burn straight pellets in the 10 CPM, or straight corn in my SCF 050, or propane in the LP furnace.  It's totally different for those that would have to change venting/add a stove, etc.


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## biomass burner (Jun 30, 2015)

bogieb said:


> So my propane company just tried to get me to lock in at $3.44/gallon. Plus, I would enjoy the convenience fee of $119 to lock in the price. Ha, I haven't used the 150 gallons I got in December yet.
> 
> Now I just have to find someplace I can actually buy a propane tank - preferably 250 gal, but could go 500 gal if push came to shove - then have it delivered and set up. Then I can tell Amerig*s to KMA, come get their tank and go away (I inherited that company when I bought this place). Of course last time I did that, at my previous house, they gave me a service charge equal to what the propane in the tank was worth. I still have 35% of a 500 gallon tank, so will have to wait a while to replace tank. And, I have a feeling they are gonna start charging me rent - arrgghh, I hate them.
> 
> Pellets prices still look mighty good to me!


wow thats crazy high for propane i have my propane caped at 1.79 a gal. so pellets now look pretty high yet around me but im planning on burning Corn to supplement my heat its still way cheaper then wood pellets


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## SidecarFlip (Jun 30, 2015)

Today, there are only a couple manufacturers that actually make true multifuel stoves and I think there may be one or two that still make corn stoves.  IMO, the industry kind of shot itself in the foot, but then who could have predicted the glut of NG (propane is made from NG) and cheap corn.  Last time around ther corn stove builders got caught with their pants down, many went out of business.

Considering how high the crop looses are this year, I don't expect corn to stay as low as it is but I do suspect Propane and NG will stay low for the foreseeable future.

In my case it's all about flexability, whatever is cheapest I run.


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## Arti (Jun 30, 2015)

In the spring and fall our heat pump is by far the most economical to operate. We use the pellet stove almost every nite in the shoulder season simply because we enjoy watching it burn. Not difficult to do the math..... a half bag of pellets or a dollar for the electric heat pump,  we choose watching the fire burn. I suspect we left more than 2 dollars in a bar onetime so this seems like really cheap entertainment to us.


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## SidecarFlip (Jul 1, 2015)

I've been guilty of that myself and lots more money in girlie bars......


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## Jags (Jul 2, 2015)

Just for prospective - I just got a 350 gal delivery for propane at $.99 per gallon.


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## SidecarFlip (Jul 2, 2015)

Jags said:


> Just for prospective - I just got a 350 gal delivery for propane at $.99 per gallon.


 

About what it is here as well....

Just got the TSC pre-buy on 'premium wood pellets' I presume somersets.  $241.00 a ton pre ordered.  Propane is the clear winner.  I suspect if TSC brings in a pile, they will have a pile left in as much as most everyone around here either uses propane, pellets corn or has NG.

I'll probably get a ton just for the 'ambiance factor'.....


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## bogieb (Jul 3, 2015)

Jags said:


> Just for prospective - I just got a 350 gal delivery for propane at $.99 per gallon.



Heck, I spent more than you just did when I bought 150 gals of propane last winter. That was when I saw my lowest price at $3.22 (yep - ~$500 for that 150 gallons). If I had locked in at the rate they want this year, I would pay even more (assuming I need to get propane at all - last I checked, I hadn't even used all of that 150 gallons).


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## SidecarFlip (Jul 3, 2015)

I find it interesting that different parts of the country command different pricing on things like propane (and pellets)...  We are at $241 a ton pre buy on pellets and right at 99 cents on propane like Jags.  That makes propane the clear winner.

I don't understand why propane would be so much higher east of the Hudson river, makes no sense to me.  Gouging, greed or actual cost?  Who really knows?


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## begreen (Jul 3, 2015)

Just got a quote from the local and only propane delivery source. $3.05/gallon.  The tank is at 25% and we only use it for a gas cooktop. Think I will wait.


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## SidecarFlip (Jul 3, 2015)

Wow, I can't fathom the difference in pricing.  Where you are, propane is in overstocked supply, I just don't get it.  This country is awash in NG (and propane) right now.


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## begreen (Jul 3, 2015)

Check Seattle area propane prices. We pay more for gasoline here too in spite of having a refinery only 70 miles to the north.
http://www.seattlepropane.com/prices


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## SidecarFlip (Jul 3, 2015)

Kind of ironic, both coasts have higher prices on fuels than the interior of the country

I haven't paid that per gallon price...ever.  I use propane to heat my machine shop.


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## begreen (Jul 3, 2015)

Search around to the north of the city and you can find propane for about half the price. We are the victims of price fixing.


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## SidecarFlip (Jul 3, 2015)

I stated early on in the thread that I own my tanks, all 3 actually and that allows me to price shop even though my hunting partner who also owns the propane company here in town always seems to have the best price.  We talk all the time so I usually know what the wholesale price is.  I just add 6 cents to that to get my retail price..  He does a 6 cent markup based on gallons so he makes his money no matter what the price is.

Now, if I had grain dryers, I could get what we call 'dryer gas'.  Thats no tax fuel (ag exemption) and it's about 15 cents a gallon under retail.  I don't have grain dryers however....(probably should add one to my GSI grain storage bin and get in on the really cheap gas....lol

It's not common knowledge but you can take an anhydrous nurse tank, remove the undercarriage, change the valving and dip tube (so it delivers vapor instead of liquid) and it becomes a propane tank.  They are one in the same except for valving.

I believe my oldest tank (bottle is the correct term) started life as a nurse tank.  It's around 60 years old.  There is really no lifespan to a propane tank so long as it's kept painted and corrosion free,  I've had to have the valves changed out on one tank, Propane is dry so the seats go bad after a while.  I got a leaky seat and my buddy changed it out, waited until the tank was at 20% came out with another tank on his truck, evacuated the 20%, changed the valves, pumped the 20 back in and I was good to go.


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## jim2074 (Jul 3, 2015)

In Northern Wisconsin propane is going for .69Cents a gallon minimum 300 gallons purchase.  That is a great price.


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## bogieb (Jul 4, 2015)

SidecarFlip said:


> I find it interesting that different parts of the country command different pricing on things like propane (and pellets)...  We are at $241 a ton pre buy on pellets and right at 99 cents on propane like Jags.  That makes propane the clear winner.
> 
> I don't understand why propane would be so much higher east of the Hudson river, makes no sense to me.  Gouging, greed or actual cost?  Who really knows?



You guys are sitting on all the resources to make propane - NH has nothing even close. We truck (or train everything either from the Midwest or Canada. Heck, I can't even get NG here (and most the state can't either). So, we pay a premium for everything. Although a couple of years old, here is an interesting post that examines propane prices from NH's perspective http://nhenergy.blogspot.com/2013/08/crossing-muddy-waters-trying-to.html


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## coobie (Jul 4, 2015)

Had my once a year propane (500 gal.)fill up two weeks ago 85 cents per gal.Thats correct not a typo.Cheapest I have ever paid..


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## Arti (Jul 4, 2015)

In the past we had 3 companies to choose LP from, also had 4 car dealers.
Now we have one gentleman that owns all the new car dealer ships and if you want local service your vehicle is purchased from him.

Back to the propain, First lp dealer was handed down to the son in law with a few changes, he was into marketing and protecting the company so a lot of new rules were put in place such as if you don't have a receipt and proof of where your tank came from then you are not the owner and they wouldn't fill it. The Second company was a local Coop sort of hard to tell what anything cost because you were investing in the company, dividend checks at the end of the year etc.
3 rd company was hard  to describe, sort of good prices but you best be around when they delivered because he might forget to see if the fill valve was leaking had it over filled twice. etc.

Well fast forward, A large company came in and over a period of a few years bought up the first 2 companies, They made it plain that they were here to make money.
Delivery charge, hazmat fee, snow in driveway fee etc. Want to pump the tank and move it sure for $$$$ we will be glad to send out bubba, hazmat fee, pumping fee, service call, etc. So if you pay a dollar for a gallon of lp it will likely be close to a dollar and a half by the time you get the bill, 

So at this point we have one company that has control of the lp pricing in this area. the third company while supplying things at an affordable price isn't the best to deal with. I suspect that the big corporation that owns the other 2 companies is closing in on buying it.

So I'm staying with the corn / pellet burning We do have lp as a backup however it's not used. We decided to not complain about corporate control over our fuel and just move on to heat pumps and our pellet furnaces.  Shop is heated with waste oil for the last 6 years.


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## bwise.157 (Jul 6, 2015)

$1.60/gallon from Amerigas here in central Ohio.  I am out of my contract with them, and would love to go elsewhere, but I have 25% left in my tank.  That will last me until sometime in December/January.   For them to pump out if I switch now, it will cost $$$.  For them to come get my tank, it will cost $$$.   I am afraid if I don't fill soon, prices will sky rocket (always my luck).  Propane is for hot water and backup heat.  Use about 150-200 gallons a year.


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## bogieb (Jul 6, 2015)

bwise.157 said:


> $1.60/gallon from Amerigas here in central Ohio.  I am out of my contract with them, and would love to go elsewhere, but I have 25% left in my tank.  That will last me until sometime in December/January.   For them to pump out if I switch now, it will cost $$$.  For them to come get my tank, it will cost $$$.   I am afraid if I don't fill soon, prices will sky rocket (always my luck).  Propane is for hot water and backup heat.  Use about 150-200 gallons a year.



That is pretty much my scenario, with the same company  ~30% left. and use about 150-200 gals/year. But I can't have them take it when empty because it will be snowed in by then (and my luck, will run empty about the time I want to take a trip to see family in KS - for which I do need propane heating).


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## Bioburner (Jul 6, 2015)

NYMEX corn down today to 4.26 and crude fell over $4 to 52.78 a barrel, gasoline fell over 9 cents. I paid the elevator last year $3.46 a bushel for corn at this time as I had $$$ from the 4th.
The corn ,beans, wheat and beets are looking the best I have seen again around here. Tomorrows high to be 67 with tonights low in the 40's. Probably have to roundup some coats to wear. We have had only one 90 degree day so far this year.


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## Dpopps (Jul 7, 2015)

I called my propane company today and they don't have a lock in price yet.

I am not sure what tsc you get somersets pellets at, I called 10 stores today and can't find them.

All the TSC stores I called have the same pre-buy price and comes out at $209.00 a ton.


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## SidecarFlip (Jul 16, 2015)

Even at a buck sixty a gallon, propane is cheaper to run than corn (it's $4.06 a bushel here right now) or TSC pre buy pellets.  Amerigas has been begging to fill my tanks, taking 1500 gallons a fill which is about a delivery truck load is good for them (or anyone).  One stop and dump.


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## SidecarFlip (Jul 16, 2015)

Bioburner said:


> NYMEX corn down today to 4.26 and crude fell over $4 to 52.78 a barrel, gasoline fell over 9 cents. I paid the elevator last year $3.46 a bushel for corn at this time as I had $$$ from the 4th.
> The corn ,beans, wheat and beets are looking the best I have seen again around here. Tomorrows high to be 67 with tonights low in the 40's. Probably have to roundup some coats to wear. We have had only one 90 degree day so far this year.


 
It's rained and rained here.  The row crops are terrible.  Lots of fields not even planted.  I have yet to cut hay, I can't get in the fields to cut it.  Been a good year for diesel consumption...I haven't used any.

We do have one bumper crop...skeeters.


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## Bioburner (Jul 17, 2015)

I will using a lot more propane in the freestanding gas stove it looks like this winter. Lot less work and still get nice radiant heat. Have enough corn to blend for the Harman to keep the basement floor warm. Will mothball the Bixby for this upcoming heating season.


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## SidecarFlip (Jul 17, 2015)

Bioburner said:


> I will using a lot more propane in the freestanding gas stove it looks like this winter. Lot less work and still get nice radiant heat. Have enough corn to blend for the Harman to keep the basement floor warm. Will mothball the Bixby for this upcoming heating season.


 
I have about 3/4 ton of Somersets left in the (right now almost empty) hay barn.  I'll pick up enough to round out the ton for those real cold evenings but I'm sure the wife will prefer the Plus 90 Bryant.

The only way I'll use pellets or corn is if it's financially comparable and I don't see that at this juncture.

I always have corn in the GSI's for the cattle anyway.  I just won't have as much this winter.

I have a feeling that this winter is gonna be a killer, snowfall wise.  This El nino system is supposed to persist until spring.

Considering the amount of precip we had in June here....  over 12 inches, that would equate to 12 feet of snow.  Add in the wind and the snow wpould be up to the roof.

My problem with hay is that the ground is saturated, I can take it off but at what price to my fields.  I have FWA on the tractors but ruts are for decades.

According to my hunting partner and local propane business owner, the low fuel prices will persist at least through the Presidential elections....  fine with me.  More hunting trip money.


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## fmsm (Jul 22, 2015)

I just looked into buying a tank. I am using propane for a whole house generator, a dryer, and DHW. I don't anticipate using much propane but wanted to bury a 500 gallon tank and forget it. The one thing that swayed me was if I own the tank I also own the liability. With my propane company I have 10 million in protection.


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## ccmac (Jul 22, 2015)

Just got a letter last week with our lock-in rate; $1.49 Which I am not happy with. Current price is $1.09/gal. Makes it a real gamble, if I buy now I am betting that mid winter the price is higher than $1.49. Last year mid winter price was $1.25 so I am not doing it. Really feel for those of you that deal with these high prices all the time. I really love my wood stove and fireplace but I also bought a high efficiency LP furnace as my back up. Hopefully this year I won't use the furnace much. I much prefer wood burning.


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## SidecarFlip (Jul 22, 2015)

fmsm said:


> I just looked into buying a tank. I am using propane for a whole house generator, a dryer, and DHW. I don't anticipate using much propane but wanted to bury a 500 gallon tank and forget it. The one thing that swayed me was if I own the tank I also own the liability. With my propane company I have 10 million in protection.


 
Your homeowners policy covers the liability....  Besides, if it blows up you won't be worrying about it...You won't be around to worry.

I have 3 500 gallon tanks about 20 feet from the house btw.

You really think your propane supplier will cover your loss???


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## Bioburner (Jul 23, 2015)

Only time I have heard of problems with tanks has been when they are parked close to a burning building. We in MN have had a couple accidents when someone was filling BBQ tanks commercially. One accident was when a truck hit the bulk tank.
 What's a lot more of concern is a the rail cars with propane and ND crude derailing or idiots trying to beat the train across a crossing.
 Oh I forgot, a teen thought he could shoot a tank with a high power rifle.  A center shot on the end. Darwin worked.


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## SidecarFlip (Jul 23, 2015)

A propane tank (technically called a bottle) operates at a storage pressure much less than say an oxygen or acetelyne welding tank, typically a propane storage tank is less than 100 psi static whereas a welding bottle could be 2000 psi.  The chance of explosion from failure is almost nonexistent unless it's impacted like Bio said or subjected to extreme heat to raise the internal pressure and even then they will vent to atmosphere pending failure.

Though ugly (don't really blend in with any landscaping unless buried which is allowed in some states), they are very safe.


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## bogieb (Jul 24, 2015)

SidecarFlip said:


> A propane tank (technically called a bottle) .



Is a 500 gallon propane tank still called a bottle? Now, if it was a stand up 100-150 gallon tank, I can see "bottle" being the correct term. Just the behemoth that is laying in my yard looks like it should be called a tank to me. Maybe bottle is the correct term for gaseous contents and tanks are for liquid? Inquiring minds want to know!


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## SidecarFlip (Jul 24, 2015)

A bottle on it's side is still a bottle.  Thats what my hunting friend who owns the propane company calls them so I presume thats correct.  He's got a bunch of 50,000 gallon ones for storage....  He calls them bottles too.  Keep in mind that while they are filled with liquid propane, the propane that comes into your house is in a gaseous state.  The 'pickup' tube in the tank is in the airspace at the top.  Bottles come 2 ways, with a long tube for liquid and a short one for gaseous.  Thats why they only fill a tank to 85%, it has to have headspace at the top for the gaseous part.

He owns a tank-bottle facility in Adrian, Michigan where he has around 20 50K storage units with a rail siding and it comes in in rail cars..  Glad the weather turned nice, I'm farming my butt off....


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## bogieb (Jul 24, 2015)

Thanks for the education Sidecar!


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## Grisu (Jul 24, 2015)

SidecarFlip said:


> A bottle on it's side is still a bottle. Thats what my hunting friend who owns the propane company calls them so I presume thats correct.



It does not seem that all propane dealers follow that convention: http://www.missiongas.com/propanetanks.htm


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## SidecarFlip (Jul 24, 2015)

Grisu said:


> It does not seem that all propane dealers follow that convention: http://www.missiongas.com/propanetanks.htm


 
Just stating what Mr. Rod Garst or Garst Propane, LLC., refers to them as.....

I was brought understanding that a tank was a container for unpressurized material and a bottle was for containment of pressurized material.  Like a Thermos bottle.  The inner and outer envelope contain a NEGATIVE pressure to insulate thecontents of the inner envelope.

No matter however, propane is much cheaper (at least around here) than  pellets or corn.  I locled in a pre buy (10% down) at 99 cents for 1500 gallons yesterday.


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## ScotL (Jul 27, 2015)

The propane tanks don't have to be ugly.


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## Bioburner (Jul 27, 2015)

There is one painted like a ear of corn somewhere in MN. Probably Olivia


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## Grisu (Jul 27, 2015)

Long cylindrical shape - I wonder what other designs someone could come up with?


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## SidecarFlip (Jul 27, 2015)

Grisu said:


> Long cylindrical shape - I wonder what other designs someone could come up with?


 
I'd do that but my wife might object.....

You can only 'decorate' them if you own them.  Supplier tanks cannot be painted or illustrated... and in some states you can bury them, I think Ohio is one.  You can't here and I might illustrate mine (just not like a male organ)....lol

Ican tell propane will stay low fr a while.  Amerigas is offering a 2 SEASON LOCK IN RATE here.

I have allegiance to my local supplier (and hunting buddy) but I found the 2 year lock in interesting.


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## SidecarFlip (Jul 27, 2015)

Wow, this thread is 5 pages and still interesting and informative.  Must be a Hearth record........  just say'in.


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## bogieb (Jul 28, 2015)

SidecarFlip said:


> I'd do that but my wife might object.....
> 
> You can only 'decorate' them if you own them.  Supplier tanks cannot be painted or illustrated... and in some states you can bury them, I think Ohio is one.  You can't here and I might illustrate mine (just not like a male organ)....lol
> 
> ...



One of the big propane companies is doing the 2 year lock also, or so their radio advertisement said. Catch is, you have to change from oil to propane and have them install the system. Have no idea what the lock in rate is but the average price for propane in July was $2.65/gal. Average price for oil was $2.57/gal. With oil being more efficient than propane at about 2/3 the cost of propane per million BTU, I am unsure why anyone would switch.


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## SidecarFlip (Jul 28, 2015)

They didn't expound as to the particulars on the radio, just the 2 year lock in.  Rod (Garst LP) told me he expects propane to stay low until at least after the Presidential elections and maybe longer if the current production rates maintain themselves.  NG is very abundant too.  Many power plants are switching to NG from coal.  Propane is a derivitave of NG (I think).....

Don't usually listen to the radio but when I'm farming I have it on as a diversion from boring.  Going round and round in a field gets old pretty quick.  In the old days you had to pay a lot of attention to what your implement was doing.  In this 'computer controlled age'. implements think for themselves, you just drive the tractor.  Pretty soon , tractors will drive themselves....lol

I've never paid (in as long as I can remember) under a dollar a gallon for propane........  I'll take it.  Saving literally hundreds of dollars equates to more spendable income elsewhere.

Pellets aren't coming down at all.  I suspect thats because pellet mills (at least the big ones) have gotten into exporting pellets (commercial grade, diffenert, larger dimensions than consumer grade pellets) to the EU, it's become BIG business according to Biomass Magazine as in ship loads being exported and specialized loading facilities being built.  I subscribe to Biomass as part of my business dealings.

I'm amazed at the tonnage being produced and exported, hundreds of thousands of tons.  That leaves the residential pellet user in the dust so to speak.  Domestic residential users are now playing 'second fiddle' to bulk exportation.  Producers can and will keep domestic prices as high as possible, they make their profits on the exports.

When I get some time, I'll quote some tonnages and reference the articles.


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## SidecarFlip (Jul 28, 2015)

Big problem with 'new technology in farming' is, it comes with a price and that prices is the purchase price of new equipment.  Your average medium sized tractor now costs upwards of 65 grand (got 2) and a lowly round bailer is 30 plus m (just bought one last fall).  Tillage equipment is high too.  A new combine is over 175 grand (I'm looking at a new Case axial flow)....  Equipment only lasts so long and then the breakdown/repair frequency gets stupid.  You don't want a breakdown in the field, especially a major one when it's time to deal with harvest or planting.

Like J.Paul Getty said, you have to spend money to make money, problem is, the prices of produced products aren't increasing, in fact they are coming down and inputs (herbicides, fertilizer and peszticides as well as seed is going up too).

Viscious circle and lots of payment books......


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## SidecarFlip (Jul 28, 2015)

Being a child of the 60's, I especially like the 'Yellow Submarine' propane bottle with the big hot dog one coming in second.  Gives me some ideas for decorating my owned ones.....


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## ScotL (Jul 28, 2015)

I saw a few pictures of Pig decorated propane tanks too. So I guess the are Propane Pigs as well as Pellet Pigs.


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## SidecarFlip (Jul 28, 2015)

My wife looked at the decorated propane containers and siad we should do the same...  Now, trying to decide the motiff...  We have 3, 2 side by side and one next door at out rental property.


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## Dpopps (Jul 29, 2015)

I got my lock in price today, $1.44 gal. and $1.34 if I pre buy. For the first time the contract says if the price is lower, they will charge the lesser amount. current price is $1.34.


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## SidecarFlip (Jul 29, 2015)

Where abouts are you in Michigan?  I'm down by Toledo and we locked in at 99 cents.  BTW, gasoline last night in Toledo (I work there) was 2.03 a gallon regular unleaded, 2.53 a gallon in Dundee, Michigan.

Anything below $1.75 a gallon beats pellets hands down.


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## Bioburner (Jul 29, 2015)

Just plugged in some numbers into St.Croix fuel conversion table and corn needs to be south of $4 to beat $1 propane figuring both stoves burning at 80% efficiency. Looks like the Bixby will still be pretty busy this next heating season.


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## SidecarFlip (Jul 29, 2015)

My Bryant is well over 85%, it's a condensing unit.  Old crop corn is hovering about $3.85/bu/15% here right now.  I think considering the crap weather, corn will rise above 4 smackers this fall.

Pellets are out of the question however.  Basically 250 a ton, thats pie-in-the-sky compared the propane and/or corn....


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## Bioburner (Jul 29, 2015)

Corn fell some more today with the crops looking excellent around here and no heat pressure. Could use some rain but not hurting yet. Local elevator buying for $3.11, so I could get for 3.36 and that's a dime less than I bought on 7/7/14

Never got around to installing a whole house Amana 90 plus as it sits in the shed. Will have to install if I sell the house. Use the freestanding gas fireplace upstairs (80%) and have a mini boiler for the infloor as backup in the basement.

The little fireplace had a total cost less than $200 installed and that would take a long time to overcome upgrading to something higher and with no ambiance or ability to run if power goes out.


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## SidecarFlip (Jul 29, 2015)

Our furnace and about 90% of everything else is on standby Generac.  The HWH isn't.  It's on a seperate meter at a reduced rate.  We had the Bryant installed years ago.  It's been basically trouble free except the hot surface ignitor that needs cleaning ocassionally.  My wife would prefer the Bryant over the multifuel stove anyway but propane has been to high (until late) to use it except for those really cold windy days.  I kept on 60 on the t'stat all the time.

Crops are poor here, too much rain.  If I hadn't side dressed (by hand) my sweet corn it would be yellow now.  Lots of fields will be chopped and the wheat came off with fungus.

least I got most of my hay finally cut and baled.  I sold it all before I cut it, good dry hay here is a rare commodity.  Last 2 weeks have been good haying weather.  I really made up for the rank cut (8 weeks overdue).  I've cleared over 3 grand on one cut and I'll get a second with some urea.  Gonna be a good hay year for me.

I need to, I have a huge bailer payment.  I bought a new NH computer round bailer last fall.  What a whiz.  I just sit in the tractor and watch the video screen.  When it's full bale, it tells me to stop, then it wraps and tells me to eject and we go again.  I can control all the inputs like how many wraps of net, the density, I can switch to twine on the fly and it allows me to choose how many wraps of twine and the spacing.... all on the console in the air conditioned tractor.  Automation comes at a price however and I still make my money on small squares.  I have a 10 year old NH 575 high capacity square bailer, very capable machine and basically trouble free but still very mechanical.

I cut with a NH disc machine and rake with a Giehl rotary...  I like NH hay tools...obviously.


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## Arti (Jul 29, 2015)

U  Just
Passed Gas !

Painted on the side of my lp tank....


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## SidecarFlip (Jul 29, 2015)

Arti said:


> U  Just
> Passed Gas !
> 
> Painted on the side of my lp tank....


 Any graphics or just words????

My wife wants me to do one tank like a big pickle.  Mine are already green (I own them so the green blends in with the trees where they sit).  I really like the yellow sub motif though.  I may do one similar, I do have 3 to choose from  A pickle a submarine and one more to do something with.....


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## SidecarFlip (Jul 29, 2015)

Bioburner said:


> Corn fell some more today with the crops looking excellent around here and no heat pressure. Could use some rain but not hurting yet. Local elevator buying for $3.11, so I could get for 3.36 and that's a dime less than I bought on 7/7/14
> 
> Never got around to installing a whole house Amana 90 plus as it sits in the shed. Will have to install if I sell the house. Use the freestanding gas fireplace upstairs (80%) and have a mini boiler for the infloor as backup in the basement.
> 
> The little fireplace had a total cost less than $200 installed and that would take a long time to overcome upgrading to something higher and with no ambiance or ability to run if power goes out.


 
I specifficalyl want old crop corn or roasting.  It's always below 15% RM and usually it's been in the grain tank at the co-op getting pressed by hundreds of tons of pressure, sort of compacted.  My co-op has 3 huge Belens and 3 bigger precast concrete bunks.  I always have them deliver and auger it into my GSI tanks pre cleaned and ready to 'feed' the steers and the stove.  I usually get 750 bushel at a delivery.

No matter, I'll be getting shelled corn delivered burning or not.  I have mouths to feed, that continues unabated.


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## Bioburner (Jul 29, 2015)

Put this on its side


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## SidecarFlip (Jul 29, 2015)

No0t bad.  They are all already painted JD Green.........


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## SidecarFlip (Aug 7, 2015)

Propane came down 10 cents more last week so I filled all 3 of my owned tanks at ..are you ready.......  89 cents a gallon delivered.  Dryer gas for crop drying is at 69 cents a gallon right now. (no tax).

I spent (filling three tanks) what I normally spend filling one......  Whooooooopie.

Gonna be a no pellet/corn year for me, well maybe a fire now and then for the 'ambience'.  Thats it.

Conversely, pre-buy on Sets at TSC didn't go down at all.  Won't be geeing my usual 5 ton this year.  More spendable income on 'other' things like hunting.....


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## Bioburner (Aug 7, 2015)

Gas for the vehicles is going down fast too. Our state average went to $2.52 according to gas buddy. Was some stations in Rochester that were 1.91 yesterday. Up to 2.10 today. Locally is 2.49. Wanting to do a couple road trips as soon as I get the rest of the parts for the new to me Xterra. Poor MPG is not such an issue as comfort. Local box store having sale on pellets for 4.89. To buy corn local elevator 3.39/bu. Thinking will have a record or close to record corn crop in MN, Dakotas, NE and Iowa.


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## SidecarFlip (Aug 7, 2015)

Crops are poor to poorer here.  Too much rain.  I just finished cutting first cut hay...12 weeks late.


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## bwise.157 (Aug 14, 2015)

Ordered propane today for my once a year fill.  $1.20 per gallon.  I live in central Ohio.  Amerigas owns my tank.  I was fully expecting a much higher price from them, but was surprised. Was thinking about buying my own tank, but couldn't argue with the price they gave me, especially since I was quoted $1.59/gallon just 30 days ago .  Will revisit the issue again next summer.


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## Bioburner (Aug 14, 2015)

Just visited my propane supplier yesterday morning while beating a local gasoline price increase of 21 cents and was told 93 cents for propane. Long range weather forecast is for a mild winter in Midwest and wetter than normal for West coast.
Would have to be able to get corn for around 3.25 to beat propane that cheap if I calculated correct so will be using a lot more lazy easy gas this winter if it holds. Have 90 days of corn cleaned and ready and hopper trailer ready if anything changes.
Hot and dry around here and they started to harvest sugar beets down the road this AM. Hope to get rain latter this weekend and a break from the very short heat spell.


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## SidecarFlip (Aug 20, 2015)

Bioburner said:


> Just visited my propane supplier yesterday morning while beating a local gasoline price increase of 21 cents and was told 93 cents for propane. Long range weather forecast is for a mild winter in Midwest and wetter than normal for West coast.
> Would have to be able to get corn for around 3.25 to beat propane that cheap if I calculated correct so will be using a lot more lazy easy gas this winter if it holds. Have 90 days of corn cleaned and ready and hopper trailer ready if anything changes.
> Hot and dry around here and they started to harvest sugar beets down the road this AM. Hope to get rain latter this weekend and a break from the very short heat spell.


 

I'm full up at 1500 gallons.  Thats enough for the winter


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## SidecarFlip (Aug 20, 2015)

I'm more concerned right now with China devaluing their currency.  That will directly impact fuel prices here.


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## Bioburner (Aug 20, 2015)

The devaluation issue is serious and they are are worried about little country of Greece.


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## SidecarFlip (Sep 18, 2015)

Propain is down to 75 cents here as of Monday.....


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## Bioburner (Sep 18, 2015)

Going to be a lot easier to make a phone call for gas than toting bags of pellets and buckets of corn. Soybeans are being harvested here and a few fields of corn are having the headlands taken.


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## SidecarFlip (Sep 18, 2015)

Maybe some 'ambience' over the holidays from the stove but thats about it.  My local TSC sold 90 ton on pre-buy, I can't figure that out unless they were all sold to Democrats...lol  Just starting to take beans right now.  I have another cut of hay to get off too.


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## Bioburner (Sep 18, 2015)

The little Dovre gives off plenty heat and ambiance


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## SidecarFlip (Sep 19, 2015)

So does my Bryant Plus 90, I just can't see it, it's in the basement....lol


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## bags (Sep 19, 2015)

Pellets are still my cheapest option this season. Corn too if I do something about getting some. Been too busy to mess with anything. 

If I had a propane system or oil I'd definitely flip the switch at these prices vs. toting 40 pounders. My toting is minimal but kicking a switch over once at the beginning of the season takes much less effort.


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## SidecarFlip (Sep 19, 2015)

You must have Ready Kilowatt for heat?....  Has to be the only 'fuel' thats more expensive than pellets and....

Following along and reading Biomass Magazine, domestic and Canadian pellet producers are reaping a fortune exporting them (along with our resources, aka: trees, though it's supposedly slash and undesireable species)....  Not exactly sure whats meant by undesireable species......

IMO, deforestation is deforestation whether here in North America or Africa for that matter.

Consequently. most don't give a hoot what the domestic market is so prices will stay high.  Besides, mass export don't entail things like bagging lines transportation and retail sales.  They extrudce them, store in bulk silo's and load ships holds via conveyors.  It's really big business today.  We are fueling Europe's power plants....

Heck, I had the heat on the other night.  It's set at 65 and thats where it will stay, all winter.

I priced old crop friday at Andersons in Maumee.  $3.65/bu.  I'm due for a feed delivery next month anyway.  Told them to drop 1500 bushel.

I might roast some plus the pellets I have left from last season but thats about it.

With propane well below a buck (and it might even go lower), makes no sense not to run the Plus 90.  Easier too.

Next year might be different, no one can predict the future but there is so much LP, the caverns (in Sarnia, Ontario) are full as well as the abadoned mines in Ohio and Michigan.  Excess is being flared.

One reason coal fired power plants are being shut (besides the tree hugging government) and switching to NG.  There is so much to ues now...


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## bags (Sep 19, 2015)

Yeah, I have an electric heat pump and they suck IMO. Mainly did it for the air handler for the Woodmaster and central AC when I originally did everything. Back then electric was pretty cheap and NG, propane, oil, etc. were the high dollar heaters. 

They get you coming and going so anything is a gamble but if I had an oil or propane system I'd be flipping a switch on the stat also. Paying more for heat is just ignorant. 74 degrees is 74 degrees no matter what. Getting the 74* cheaper is the only reasonable thing anyone can do.


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## SidecarFlip (Sep 19, 2015)

Well, I'd directional drill and put in a loop and go geo-thermal, you are young enough to realize the ROI and the gunnit is still offering a 30% rebate until the end of the year I think.  My hunting bud is building a new home not far from me and he's going geo.  He had it in his previous house in Ohio and I think his highest mid-winter electric bill was 175 bucks last winter.

I'm too old for that (ROI).

You do know that if you hold your RH to an acceptable level in the winter, 65 'feels' like 70.

I guess with the current energy climate and Ovomit doing everything he can to eliminate coal, juice will only increase in cost, probably substantially.


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## SidecarFlip (Sep 19, 2015)

BTW 'Dryer Gas here hit an all time low of 65 cents a gallon.....  Don't mean clothes dryer either.....


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## Wisneaky (Sep 19, 2015)

LP was .99 when I last bought. It figure it would have to come below .75 before it would be cheaper to use it vs wood. Even than I'll still burn wood.


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## SidecarFlip (Sep 19, 2015)

You leave out some important considerations in your assessment concerning wood vs proppain.  One thing, not everyone has access to a woodlot,  Obviously you do but you need to factor in some things like what is your time worth?  Takes time to cut, split, stack and handle wood plus the cost of the woodburner, the gas for the chainsaw, the chainsaw itself and then the consumables like chain loops and bar oil, lets not forget safety gear like chaps and a helmet...and gloves and an axe and splitting maul or better yet, a gas powered splitter,a dnt e gas for the splitter...  I could go on.

Bottom line is, it all costs money for the 'free wood' thats really not such a good deal anyway.

Propain, on the other hand is one time cost.  It's a good deal.  I have the wood too.  Most of my wood from my acres of trees, I chip in my big chipper or burn in a pile.  I tried giving it away, but no one wants to spend the time to haul and split and stack it so I roast it yearly.  Makes a helluva bonfire.


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## SidecarFlip (Sep 19, 2015)

...and wood is full of bugs that come inside your house with the wood and then set up residence.  It's warmer inside afterall.


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## Wisneaky (Sep 20, 2015)

SidecarFlip said:


> You leave out some important considerations in your assessment concerning wood vs proppain.  One thing, not everyone has access to a woodlot,  Obviously you do but you need to factor in some things like what is your time worth?  Takes time to cut, split, stack and handle wood plus the cost of the woodburner, the gas for the chainsaw, the chainsaw itself and then the consumables like chain loops and bar oil, lets not forget safety gear like chaps and a helmet...and gloves and an axe and splitting maul or better yet, a gas powered splitter,a dnt e gas for the splitter...  I could go on.
> 
> Bottom line is, it all costs money for the 'free wood' thats really not such a good deal anyway.
> 
> Propain, on the other hand is one time cost.  It's a good deal.  I have the wood too.  Most of my wood from my acres of trees, I chip in my big chipper or burn in a pile.  I tried giving it away, but no one wants to spend the time to haul and split and stack it so I roast it yearly.  Makes a helluva bonfire.


Now lets add in some good stuff about wood. The cost saving, even with all that you said is a lot compared to LP. Plus it's all around fun. Great exercise. You get to be outside and enjoy nature. Wood heat is so much warmer. Nothing like watching a wood fire burn, pure enjoyment.


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## Cory S (Sep 20, 2015)

You guys are lucky.  My propane supplier just quoted me $2.59/gallon.....


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## bigbobs (Sep 20, 2015)

Propane in NH comes in by boat to Newington, NH on the Maine border to a place called Sea3. They are going to expand and are looking at shipping by rail through Portsmouth, which has the locals all riled!


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## Pete Zahria (Sep 20, 2015)

bigbobs said:


> Propane in NH comes in by boat to Newington, NH on the Maine border to a place called Sea3. They are going to expand and are looking at shipping by rail through Portsmouth, which has the locals all riled!



They get riled over anything...


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## bags (Sep 20, 2015)

> Wisneaky said:
> 
> 
> > The cost saving,


True IF you process your own. Very true and a reason I still love wood burning. Now off to reality........ IF you buy cord wood it is about the same cash lay out as pellets and this is exactly where pellets begin to win big.





> Wisneaky said:
> 
> 
> > Plus it's all around fun.


It can be for a MINUTE. *Define fun*. Is it "fun" getting up in the middle of the night cold and re-stoking the fire box? Is it fun dragging wood around non-stop and all the mess and cold snowy icy bug ridden mess? Is it "fun" being beaten at times like a wood slave? The list goes on and on. Let's be realistic about what is truly "fun" and what can truly be a major PITA at times.......


> > Wisneaky said:
> >
> >
> > > You get to be outside and enjoy nature. Wood heat is so much warmer. Nothing like watching a wood fire burn, pure enjoyment.
> ...


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## bags (Sep 20, 2015)

> Pete Zahria said:
> 
> 
> > They get riled over anything...


That's why everyone pays over the top prices for commodities and life in general up there. Many are moving out of the high tax and regulations states. Fact. I encourage everyone to stay put because KY is a wonderful state full of peeps from OH, MI, PA, etc that come here to vacation and sight see. Another fact.

It is largely a misconception that KY is an ass backwards pack of banjo playing non shoe wearing fools. Funny but largely untrue. Da Da Ding Ding Ding Ding........Dah Da Dum Dum Dum Da. Ya'll were starting to shift and bounce around a bit. Huh?

There are some poor and suppressed places in the Bluegrass but they still beat the hell out of urban ghettos IMO. It's everywhere you go but we have the poor uneducated hill billy excuse. What's yours?


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## SidecarFlip (Sep 20, 2015)

Wisneaky said:


> Now lets add in some good stuff about wood. The cost saving, even with all that you said is a lot compared to LP. Plus it's all around fun. Great exercise. You get to be outside and enjoy nature. Wood heat is so much warmer. Nothing like watching a wood fire burn, pure enjoyment.


 
Might be fine when you are younger, I'm not.  If I have to be outside in the winter, I much prefer hunting over being a wood slave.  besides, how is 'enjoying nature' equate to trudging from the woodpile to the stove or furnace?  I wanna know the answer to that one...?

Wood heat is warmer?  Thats an acquired sensation basied on nothing more than personal feelings...  70 degrees ambient in home temperature using central heat is EXACTLY the same as 70 degrees ambient using a wood stove.  It 'feels warmer'.  In reality they are the same.  A BTU of heat is the same no matter what it's derivived from.....

Again, if you have harvestable wood available, all well and good.  Many don't.  In the end, it still costs nearly as much as conventional fuels, factoring in all the aspects of harvesting it.

I heated with wood myself, long before pelletized biomass became mainstream so I full well know the advantages and disadvantages.  Bottom line is, at the current price of LP, at least here, it's the clear winner.

I'll still have a fire in the appliance but it won't be 24/7 every day.  The propane furnace will provide the 'warmth' for appreciably less ber BTU realized than other sources of heat.....

In closing, it's not 'enjoyment' with me, it's keeping my arse warm.  Nothing more.


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## SidecarFlip (Sep 20, 2015)

Cory S said:


> You guys are lucky.  My propane supplier just quoted me $2.59/gallon.....


 
Actually, if you apply the cost per btu calculations of pellets versus propane, you'll find the break point (depending on your cost per ton on pellets) to be right around $2.50 per gallon.......


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## SidecarFlip (Sep 20, 2015)

At my well less than a buck per gallon cost for propain, it (pellets) don't even come close....  no cigar so to speak.


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## moey (Sep 20, 2015)

Some folks like standing in front of a object that is 400F. You cant get that with a central heating system I guess if you had a gas or oil stove you could.


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## Peterfield (Sep 20, 2015)

Cory S said:


> You guys are lucky.  My propane supplier just quoted me $2.59/gallon.....



Seems both oil, NG and propane are priced higher in NH than almost anywhere else.  I know it's probably not true but it's almost like the airlines getting caught price-fixing so fares stay artificially high rather than fluctuate from demand.


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## bags (Sep 20, 2015)

> moey said:
> 
> 
> > Some folks like standing in front of a object that is 400F. You cant get that with a central heating system


Another fact and I am one of those idiots . Still does ease the cash pains of high dollar pellets or high labor and hassle wood handling. Well maybe it does a bit. Kinda like the mental thing toddlers have when the Band Aid gets put on da boo boo. The boo boo still stings and hurts but somehow suddenly mentally it does not. My wallet can care less about a Band Aid being stuck on it. Maybe your wallet has feelings.


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## muleman51 (Sep 20, 2015)

I have heated with wood for 41 years, I am now tired, I do feel like a slave to cutting, splitting, hauling, feeding a fire outside 4 times a day. with propane prices where they are now i am going to mothball my boiler and buy yet another boiler and put in the house. My back will appreciate it.I would much rather work a few more hours at work than have to fight for wood even though I have more dead trees than I can burn.  Maybe if I retire someday I will go back to burning wood again.  Jim


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## bags (Sep 20, 2015)

> muleman51 said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe if I retire someday I will go back to burning wood again. Jim


Jim,
was in the same boat and I am 46 and in excellent shape and health. Time was my factor and the straw that broke the camels back was I had been working out of town for several winters so the wife had to feed the Woodmaster, manage the kids, and go to work. Loading the wheel barrow twice a day and pushing it thru these nasty snow filled winters just a short distance was enough to piss her all the way off.

The OWB is a great unit but a hungry one. 8-10 cords per winter. Another fact. Very long burn times so stoking it up isn't an issue either. Load in the AM. Load in the PM and it is parked right next to the barn full of nice dry wood. It was still tons of work and time consuming. I have so much wood here and downed by storms and standing dead I shake in my boots thinking about it. Not really but it does raise my brows thinking about all the work and time. I do love wood heat but I am being a realist about it. If it's so "free", cheap, easy, and great why isn't everyone heating with it. You and I and many others know that answer.

I have it all and set myself up to heat with 100% wood and have for many, many years. Just like concrete form work on foundations which I also did for years....... It's a young man's game. I can not tell you how happy I was when that bunch of "fun" sold and left my life. I'll sub that stuff from here on out and even did at times with my equipment and forms sitting idle.

Dump truck, skid steer, front loader 4x4 tractor, splitter, saws on and on. My friend also has a bad ass wood processor I can drag home as I wish for the most part. I have wood handling and processing simplified as much as humanly possible and it still sucks a big donkey dong. People can rationalize all this "free" heat they want but the truth is exactly what it is. Truth = Time and Work or exercise as they like to say. That is a benefit no doubt and being outside and the satisfactions of all of it. But you can sugar coat a pile of crap with all the icing one could want. When you bite into that pile of icing what are you eating? My icing here was beginning to not taste so great. Even with the extra sprinkles. That said, If pellets get insanely priced here I'll be eating icing piles again but not for now. Doesn't make sense currently to have that kind of "fun."


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## SidecarFlip (Sep 20, 2015)

Bags...  If I was 46 again,. I'd be a ...well, I can't post it on here but you can fill in the blank..lol

According to my hunt buddy/propane dealer, it will go up after the presidential elections next year so we have 2 winters of cheap gas...


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## Pete Zahria (Sep 20, 2015)

Pete Zahria said:


> They get riled over anything...





bags said:


> That's why everyone pays over the top prices for commodities and life in general up there. Many are moving out of the high tax and regulations states. Fact. I encourage everyone to stay put because KY is a wonderful state full of peeps from OH, MI, PA, etc that come here to vacation and sight see. Another fact.
> 
> It is largely a misconception that KY is an ass backwards pack of banjo playing non shoe wearing fools. Funny but largely untrue. Da Da Ding Ding Ding Ding........Dah Da Dum Dum Dum Da. Ya'll were starting to shift and bounce around a bit. Huh?
> 
> There are some poor and suppressed places in the Bluegrass but they still beat the hell out of urban ghettos IMO. It's everywhere you go but we have the poor uneducated hill billy excuse. What's yours?


Where did this come from????
What does this have to do with my quote about Portsmouth?
Did I miss something?


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## bags (Sep 20, 2015)

Pete Zahria said:


> Where did this come from????
> What does this have to do with my quote about Portsmouth?
> Did I miss something?


Yes Dan, A good joke. Just playing around. Bored today as you can see. It'll be all right. No worries, heating season is right around the corner.


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## muleman51 (Sep 20, 2015)

Sorry for going astray. Gas prices in MN are from $1.14 to .72 depending on quantity and if you own your own tank. I prepaid high at 1.14 in Aug. Summer fill was .97 when I filled on July 8. Stupid me but still is cheaper for me than cutting and splitting. Don't need the hassle after working outside all week long.  Jim


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## bogieb (Sep 21, 2015)

SidecarFlip said:


> Actually, if you apply the cost per btu calculations of pellets versus propane, you'll find the break point (depending on your cost per ton on pellets) to be right around $2.50 per gallon.......



You must use a different calculator than I do; at $2.50/gal for propane, with an 80% efficient heater (probably optimistic for mine), it equals $34.22 per million BTU's. Pellets, at 70% efficiency and $250/ton equal 21.65 per million BTU.

Even if I jack up the propane heater to 90% efficiency, it is still at $30.40 per million BTU's. and I gotta get up to $350/ton to $3.30 per million BTU.

I am going by their standard BTU per unit of 16,500,000 for the pellets so maybe that is where we differ?


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## Peterfield (Sep 21, 2015)

For much of the country, propane is $1.50 or less which would make propane an attractive alternative to pellets, plus saving time not having to schlep pellets or clean a stove.


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## Pete Zahria (Sep 21, 2015)

bags said:


> Yes Dan, A good joke.


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## Bioburner (Sep 21, 2015)

muleman51 said:


> Gas prices in MN are from $1.14 to .72


 Labor Day was 93 cents in Grant County. If we don't need much for drying corn as it looks now price will get even more down pressure. Drought monitor this AM showed us in watch area


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## maple1 (Sep 21, 2015)

bags said:


> True IF you process your own. Very true and a reason I still love wood burning. Now off to reality........ IF you buy cord wood it is about the same cash lay out as pellets and this is exactly where pellets begin to win big.It can be for a MINUTE. *Define fun*. Is it "fun" getting up in the middle of the night cold and re-stoking the fire box? Is it fun dragging wood around non-stop and all the mess and cold snowy icy bug ridden mess? Is it "fun" being beaten at times like a wood slave? The list goes on and on. Let's be realistic about what is truly "fun" and what can truly be a major PITA at times.......


 
I'm 53 and it's still fun for me.

I just put all my wood for this winter, into my basement, this past weekend. One good day would have done it but I started late the first day. No mid-night firings for me, or handling wood outside in the snow & cold. My fire only burns 6 hours a day in the winter, and it's pretty well out by the time I'm heading to bed. Two trips to the cozy basement per day for the firings that I could do in my slippers & underwear if I wanted to. I didn't start putting up wood this year until into August, and will be two years ahead again before winter hits. I look forward to the weekends this time of year, to get into the woods & make chips fly. It's great exercise, and not much better place to be in the fall than the woods.

That's with my current boiler. Looking back to before I got that - ya, it can be a chore & I'm glad those days are over. Staying up too late to get that last load in, then getting up too early to get the first fire of the day going had me kind of ragged by the time winter was over. Not to mention the rather scary at times mid-winter chimney cleanings from the top of our two storey house which I don't have to do anymore. And burning 50% more wood then than now - with a warmer house now.

So it depends on how & what you run, combined with personal preferences. I didn't even know it was possible to heat with wood the way I am now up until 4-5 years ago - lots of options out there. Including being able to use more than one source of heat at times, which has me also seriously considering a mini-split system to handle the shoulder seasons & also some summer a/c.


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## Bioburner (Sep 22, 2015)

News feed this morning stating the Energy Dept stated that propane is at a 22 year stockpile high. I forgot the #s as it was before coffee.


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## Peterfield (Sep 22, 2015)

Yep, whole different energy market this year.  Sky is not falling if you haven't bought your pellets far from it.  Shouldn't have any panic buying that contributed to the shortage last year due to alternative energy sources running 50% cheaper than last year.


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## Wisneaky (Oct 3, 2015)

I called today because I was curious to see what the price was now. It is .89 a gallon here.


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## Cory S (Oct 3, 2015)

Wisneaky said:


> I called today because I was curious to see what the price was now. It is .89 a gallon here.


I don't even know why they bother even charging for it at that price.  Might as well give it away, and just pay a $50.00 delivery fee.......


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## Wisneaky (Oct 3, 2015)

Cory S said:


> I don't even know why they bother even charging for it at that price.  Might as well give it away, and just pay a $50.00 delivery fee.......


At that price I'm almost considering saving my wood until LP gets more expensive. My tank is almost full and I have enough paid in advance to almost get another complete fill up.


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## Cory S (Oct 3, 2015)

Wisneaky said:


> At that price I'm almost considering saving my wood until LP gets more expensive. My tank is almost full and I have enough paid in advance to almost get another complete fill up.


If you have good storage for wood, I would.  Unless your wood is free obviously.  I would burn propane in the summer just for fun at that price.....


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## Wisneaky (Oct 3, 2015)

Cory S said:


> If you have good storage for wood, I would.  Unless your wood is free obviously.  I would burn propane in the summer just for fun at that price.....


I actually have mine stored in a dry shed. I pay for my wood. I think it's around $150 a loggers cord right now. I have plenty of wood. It would cost me about the same if I use my LP vs wood at that price. My LP furnace is 95% efficiency and I use around 4 to 5 gallons a day depending on how cold it is out, that's with the gas stove, water heater, and dryer.


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## Peterfield (Oct 3, 2015)

Wisneaky said:


> I called today because I was curious to see what the price was now. It is .89 a gallon here.



Cheaper than bottled water.  The surplus must be staggering.


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## Tails1 (Nov 29, 2017)

Just for the heck of it what is everyone paying for LP now? With gasoline prices climbing here and the next recession on the horizon I am curious. Also pellets are more expensive around here this year, couldn't find any under 5.99 a bag. Last year I got for 4.19 a bag. . Hardly used the wood stove last year but will be using it more this year for sure.


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## Bioburner (Nov 29, 2017)

I filled in September for 1.13 a gallon. Bottled water is 20 cents a gallon if you fill your own jugs
Gasoline came down a nickel today. Paying 2.14 in the RGV
The Keystone pipeline had issues with delivery and is fully operational


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## bags (Nov 30, 2017)

Bioburner said:


> I filled in September for 1.13 a gallon. Bottled water is 20 cents a gallon if you fill your own jugs
> Gasoline came down a nickel today. Paying 2.14 in the RGV
> The Keystone pipeline had issues with delivery and is fully operational



Hey Bio, Hope all is well. 

I was thinking about doing a supplemental propane heater deal here but I'd probably want to kick myself afterwards. There would be some costs for the unit and cylinders totaling $400 - $500 just to get started. Still on the fence about one for a smaller area and it wouldn't be used daily or even weekly. Cost of propane here is just under $3 bucks a gallon. About the same as kerosene. Really the only perk is the ease of use minus loading and unloading cylinders to refill etc;

I would buy my own tanks. Probably a few 40 pounders or possibly two 100 pound cylinders that I would take and get filled. Pellets are still cheap enough here as I paid $199 per ton out the door for Somersets locally.


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## UpStateNY (Dec 1, 2017)

First year for propane heat for me. I was able to get my LP gas provider  to agree to a $1.65/gallon of LP.  I am currently using their  two 110 gallon propane tanks on the side of my house.   BTW they charge a $10 safety charge on every delivery.  Not sure what that is all about.  They have been delivering about 50 gallons each month so the $10 each delivery is a concern.  Now that the months are colder I will need a delivery every month.  until March.  

Depending on what happens next year with price of  propane,  I will be considering purchasing  my own  300 or 500 gallon propane tank for about $2000.    Not cheap but it will give me the option to lock in the best price.


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## jwfirebird (Dec 1, 2017)

maybe its what they charge to be safe on your property

car gas has been 2.60, oil is about the same I think, was at a 1/4 they wanted around 550-600. but first tank this year, can go through one ea sept oct nov . using wood more than most years, which is free plus consumables for me


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## bogieb (Dec 2, 2017)

Just happened to be looking at my propane account online yesterday to see when my last delivery was (March of this year). They display today's buy price for my account and it was at $3.09/gal. Don't use enough to be able to lock in a price - but being in the boonies could never get a "good" deal anyway.


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## Orson_Yancey (Dec 2, 2017)

bogieb said:


> I have been thinking about it. Don't know if it would affect the perceived value of the house (one way or the other) if I decided to sell later. But, it would get all those pesky FHW pipes out of my way and I wouldn't have to run the boiler 2-3x/day during really cold weather to make sure they don't freeze (pipes run thru unheated garage). I also have trouble with spending the $$ to convert, but you did give me a good reminder that maybe that is the way to go and I should think more deeply about it before I go and get a hug, self-owned propane tank. I could then just buy a 100# bottle for my gas stove (love cooking with gas, hate electric), but that would be much more versatile on where I could place it.



Hi Bogieb,
I had some zone pipes freezing in a cold part of the house near a crawl space.  I improved the situation by lining the 
zone pipes with electric heating cable.  Now I no longer need to run the zone, just to protect the zone pipes.


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## Orson_Yancey (Dec 2, 2017)

Hi Bogieb,
One of my plans is to own my own propane tanks, then I can have any propane company fill them.  The savings is about
$1.00/gal.  You might be too far a way, but I was getting some good tank purchase quotes from
Rye Energy Co., Portsmouth.   As of last April, a 120 gal tank deliver full for about $700, purchase price.
Some other factors to consider.   The NH Law require tanks over 120 gal, above ground, to be located
a considerable distance from any buildings (I think 200 feet) and the line must be buried underground.   (Expensive
to install.)
But it it is legal to line up multiple 120 gal tanks along the side of a building, manifold them together.
(I see this often, as many as four 120 gal tanks lined-up beside inches from a building.)
It sounds like you might already have a large tank close to your house.  I am just guessing, but these situations
may have existed before the law was passed, and hence have been "grandfathered in".  Any new tanks
arrangements will have to comply with the current law.
I too am not a fan of propane; hence, I plan to phase out all propane usage except for the backup generator.
I inherited the propane arrangement when I purchased the house.


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## Orson_Yancey (Dec 2, 2017)

bogieb said:


> I think the biggest issue with owning your own propane tank is a decent sized propane tank costs $1500-$2000 and then you have to get transportation (it won't fit in the back of my poor little Patriot - LOL, and wouldn't even fit in the bed of a pickup truck). Then you have all the hook ups, pressurizers and what-not. A 275 gallon Oil tank is a less than $500 at BBS, will fit in the bed of a regular sized pickup, and doesn't have much for installing the line (a filter and a petcock maybe?).
> 
> Also, propane tanks must be recertified every 12 years and if it flunks, there goes another couple of grand to buy a new one. Oil tanks don't have to be recertified, and they can routinely last 25 years.
> 
> The question is, can I recoup the ~$2k cost within a 12 year time span with savings realized by going to my own tank. At this point, probably not since I haven't even used 150 gallons since last December. Now, if I didn't have pellet stoves and still went thru 300-400 gallons of propane during the winter months, I'd have a better chance of at least breaking even.




Hi Bogieb,
I guess this is an old thread.  But I will mention that if you purchase an ASME propane tank, it is certified forever.  It is the older
DOT tanks that have to be re-certfified regularly.


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## Pete Zahria (Dec 2, 2017)

bogieb said:


> $3.09/gal.


wow....


Dan


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## bogieb (Dec 3, 2017)

Orson_Yancey said:


> Hi Bogieb,
> I guess this is an old thread.  But I will mention that if you purchase an ASME propane tank, it is certified forever.  It is the older
> DOT tanks that have to be re-certfified regularly.



Last November I changed propane companies, got rid of the 500 gal tank and put in 2-120 gal tanks next to the house (the behemouth is out of the yard). Buying my own tanks didn't make sense as even at $1/gal savings, it would take 6 years or more to recoup the costs and I am unsure I will be here that long. I saved over $1/gallon just by changing propane suppliers (even at the $3.09 quoted the other day).


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## bdud (Dec 3, 2017)

I paid $4.51 a gallon for a delivery 10/25/17. Oh I wish I could pay under $3 a gallon..


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## bogieb (Dec 4, 2017)

bdud said:


> I paid $4.51 a gallon for a delivery 10/25/17. Oh I wish I could pay under $3 a gallon..



That is about what I'd be paying if I still used my old company.


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## Maladjusted (Dec 4, 2017)

bdud said:


> I paid $4.51 a gallon for a delivery 10/25/17. Oh I wish I could pay under $3 a gallon..



WHOA!!   I bought a 1000 gal tank and had it buried when I built my house. Been here 9 years, so I have fully recouped the cost!  I usually pay $1.59 - $1.79 per gallon having 600 or 700 gallons delivered every other year.

Mal


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## 3fordasho (Dec 4, 2017)

bdud said:


> I paid $4.51 a gallon for a delivery 10/25/17. Oh I wish I could pay under $3 a gallon..



Crazy!  my summer fill was $.99/gal.  With the wood heat I average about 200 gallons/year.   If I was paying $4.51 a gallon those tanks would be disconnected and sitting out by the road.  One tank still leased, the other two I now own, price the same either way but owning does give me the right to shop around if current supplier becomes unreasonable.


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## redbill (Dec 4, 2017)

I was $3.26 in central MA, not my tank. I got it down to $2.50 a couple years ago when I was using more, but now with my P68 running 24/7, I don't think I qualify for the cheaper rate.


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## the pony boy (Dec 4, 2017)

Thank God I don't have propane heat any more. I had propane forced hot air and never liked it. Last few years I was able to get reaonable rates with a pre buy plan but that was tough because I had to pay in advace to get it. Looks like my rate would have been in the upper 2 dollar range if I was still using. Just filled up with oil and paid 2.20 a gallon. And new house has radiant baseboard.


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## bdud (Dec 5, 2017)

I use ~150 gallons a year, ~$600 + $100 tank rental, which I use to heat a large garage/ workshop. 
I think I will seriously work on fitting a heating coil in the garage ac unit and run that from a zone off the house pellet boiler.
Propane for me is not getting cheaper, maybe as I don't use it for the house, possibly most expensive tier?


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