# EFEL, AWKWARD INSTALL IN OLD COTTAGE + BIRD NEST DILEMMA !



## Fire sprite (Sep 10, 2015)

Hi Folks,  I am in the process of having my old Harmony 5 woodburner installed

Uploaded a couple of pics so you can see what's happening ....  

photo details as follows :

~ Stove direct on tiled floor, as, I am told, hearth is not necessary..
~ Hole in ceiling goes straight up into loft room..
~  Woodchip panel has been removed from loft wall to access the point at which the chimney stops.  The pipe will remain exposed to vent into the loft.

...Due to the nature of the chimney which is at least, 200 years old, most unfortunately, inserting a liner is not going to be possible,  as the chimney itself is very narrow... so it is just a pipe up through the ceiling, then through the loft wall to acess the existing chimney (  Most regrettably chimney does not extend down into room below  .
...  
Also, installer has had to fit a new chimney pot, as the old one had been removed and the chimney sealed over thickly with cement.

Due to the extremely wet and often, wildly ferocious  weather conditions here ( I live at the top of a mountain )  I asked to have a chimney cap fitted.....The installer fitted a cap which has a bird guard attached, he stated that bird guards often get gunged up with soot......and that he wouldn't recommend them personally ....

I am somewhat perplexed as I did say, ok, best remove the bird guard then ... but he has left the bird guard in tact all the same  !

Prob is I do not wish to incur ongoing inconvenience and expense having to employ someone every time the guard gets blocked up with soot..... 

However, at the same time, admittedly,I ~ AM, also, concerned, at the possibility of a bird making a nest in the chimney at some point, and the hapless bird and its chicks being burnt alive, This is proving a most terrible dilema for me ... I do not know what to do for the best ....

Do I keep the guard or get it removed  ?          

I am between a rock and a hard place with this ...

What do I do  ?????


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## DAKSY (Sep 10, 2015)

Fire sprite said:


> Hi Folks,  I am in the process of having my old Harmony 5 woodburner installed
> 
> Uploaded a couple of pics so you can see what's happening ....
> 
> ...



What you NEED to do is install your venting & stove correctly.
There are clearances behind the stove that must be maintained.
The connector pipe cannot pass through the floor, & the clearance to the wall needs to be met. If that's single-wall pipe, you must have 18" minimum to that wall.
There needs to be a support box at the first ceiling penetration & from there to the cap, you need to install Class A chimney.
No other way to do it safely.


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## DougA (Sep 10, 2015)

It's clearly single wall in the last photo.  There are so many problems here that the bird guard is the least of the problems IMHO. I'd love to comment but I have no knowledge of coal burning or laws in Wales.  Last time I ventured into Wales, I had to retreat quickly when I saw a road sign using a whole alphabet for one town's name.   I am clearly no linguist. Now that I have a GPS, I may venture back someday.


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## kennyp2339 (Sep 10, 2015)

Do NOT lite that stove as is. Please ... it really looks like a questionable install. The things wrong I see are..

Stove may be a little to close to the back wall, sides may be to close to combustible materials.
Single wall pipe going through a floor. That single wall needs a minimum of 18" from combustibles in the states, the picture shows a rafter in very close proximity. ( The structure looks very old and you may have balloon type, you can have a fire behind your walls and not realize it until its to late and the attic area / roof is on fire) 
The single wall pipe looks like it just dumps and stops at the base area of the chimney. We call this a slammer type install, very dangerous for the reason of CO poisoning, (during the late stage of the fire the draft could weaken and CO gasses can slip from the chimney to your living space due to lack of a liner through out, if your asleep you may not wake up. 
Best solution for this is to install your stove in relation to clearance specs, run a new chimney for that stove, close off the old chimney permanently, and get you money back from the first installer. (he really could have burnt your house down or worse, ended your life with his bad practices)


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## Fire sprite (Sep 10, 2015)

DAKSY said:


> What you NEED to do is install your venting & stove correctly.
> There are clearances behind the stove that must be maintained.
> The connector pipe cannot pass through the floor, & the clearance to the wall needs to be met. If that's single-wall pipe, you must have 18" minimum to that wall.
> There needs to be a support box at the first ceiling penetration & from there to the cap, you need to install Class A chimney.
> No other way to do it safely.



Very much appreciate your advice, Daksy,  but I, personally, have absolutely, ~No, experience whatsoever, concerning the installing of wood stoves.  The installer I have hired, however,
impressed me the most out of nigh on a dozen other proffessional installers I interviewed for the job.  All the guys I interviwed are ~Hetas registered, which is the British tradesmark of expertise in this area of work.  However, my installer does say that he will ~Not be able to provide me with a Hetas certificate  (  which is required by my home insurance in the event of fire hazard )  as the ~Only possible way he can install the stove to the existing chimney, will not allow him to meet the regulations required to meet Hetas standards.
  However, to calm my apprehension  he maintains that he has installed his ~Own woodburner, in his own home, in exactly the same way he is installing mine.
  Further more where my Harmony stove is a mere 5 kw, ~His  large canopy woodburner kicks out a massive 16 kw !  Surely, he wouldn't , even  ~ Consider installing  my stove as he suggests, unless, he is absolutely, certain of its safty  ?

If you believe this is not the case ...He arrives,early, tommorrow morning, to complete the job.....  so what the hell am I going to do  ?  18 inches away from the wall, in this size room... just not possible ... and I owe the guy a ~LOT of money  !  
Again, what do I do.... what do I say to the guy  ???


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## DAKSY (Sep 10, 2015)

Tell him to install it correctly. You are putting fire in your home. Fire will do one of two things.
It will HEAT your home or it will EAT your home. It doesn't care which, as long as there is fuel.
Just because he installed his stove INCORRECTLY & it works, does NOT guarantee yours will.


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## jatoxico (Sep 10, 2015)

Cannot supply the appropriate certificate for insurance but is doing install anyway? I'm not in anyway qualified as an installer but that looks far from safe to me, very far. Can you post the name and model of your stove so that the minimum clearances can be found? The stack looks unsafe as well but starting with the stove itself...


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## Fire sprite (Sep 10, 2015)

kennyp2339 said:


> Do NOT lite that stove as is. Please ... it really looks like a questionable install. The things wrong I see are..
> 
> Stove may be a little to close to the back wall, sides may be to close to combustible materials.
> Single wall pipe going through a floor. That single wall needs a minimum of 18" from combustibles in the states, the picture shows a rafter in very close proximity. ( The structure looks very old and you may have balloon type, you can have a fire behind your walls and not realize it until its to late and the attic area / roof is on fire)
> ...



~~~~~~~~~~


I am now ~ VERY, worried, ....... I wasn't expecting in my wildest nightmares this kind of reaction .......I have not, as yet, paid the guy.... he seems like a very nice chap too...
He will be here tomorrow morning ..... All I can think to do is show him your replies........ My only concern was about the bird guard ...
now it looks as though I won't be able to have my burner installed ~At all !  ..... after, literally, years, of freezing away, in this old mountain cottage
clutching grimly to a hotwater bottle throughout the winter....... This install was ~SO important to me ..... Oh well ..... I am so ~Not, looking forward to tomorrow morning .......


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## Fire sprite (Sep 10, 2015)

jatoxico said:


> Cannot supply the appropriate certificate for insurance but is doing install anyway? I'm not in anyway qualified as an installer but that looks far from safe to me, very far. Can you post the name and model of your stove so that the minimum clearances can be found? The stack looks unsafe as well but starting with the stove itself...



~~~~~~~~~~~


Yes, It is a Harmony 5......


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## jatoxico (Sep 10, 2015)

Fire sprite said:


> ~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> 
> Yes, It is a Harmony 5......


I looked to see if I could get the installation manual but could not. Do you have it? Would like to determine the clearances required by the manufacturer.


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## DougA (Sep 10, 2015)

I would suggest that you contact Hetas and forward the photos and information you have posted here.  Wait for a reply before letting the installer back in the door.
email: info@hetas.co.uk
web site is www.hetas.co.uk
Their consumer brochure is here: http://www.hetas.co.uk/wp-content/mediauploads/BFCMA-General-Guidance-10-12-12.pdf


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## DAKSY (Sep 10, 2015)

Without a rating plate to specify clearances to the stove, NFPA-211 (in the US)
dictates that it must have a* MINIMUM clearance of 36 INCHES to combustibles on ALL sides*.


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## Fire sprite (Sep 10, 2015)

kennyp2339 said:


> Do NOT lite that stove as is. Please ... it really looks like a questionable install. The things wrong I see are..
> 
> Stove may be a little to close to the back wall, sides may be to close to combustible materials.
> Single wall pipe going through a floor. That single wall needs a minimum of 18" from combustibles in the states, the picture shows a rafter in very close proximity. ( The structure looks very old and you may have balloon type, you can have a fire behind your walls and not realize it until its to late and the attic area / roof is on fire)...


" Stove may be a little to close to the back wall, sides may be to close to combustible materials."

I believe he was going to be puting fireboard on the wall behind the stove.  He has,also, left a large metal plate in the room... I assume he will either put this,as well, behind the stove.... or possibily, on the backwall of the loft  ( behind the pipe )  ??

"Single wall pipe going through a floor. That single wall needs a minimum of 18" from combustibles in the states, the picture shows a rafter in very close proximity  "

Yes, the rafter is very close, but he was going to cover all exposed wood with protective fireboard ....

. ( The structure looks very old and you may have balloon type, you can have a fire behind your walls and not realize it until its to late and the attic area / roof is on fire)

This is a very solid stone wall cottage.... he was going to leave the pipe visible.... to vent into the loft room... which would have, also kept it warm and heated up there ...

The single wall pipe looks like it just dumps and stops at the base area of the chimney.

Not quite sure what you mean, ( though I am not exactly technical minded ... )  he did say he would be putting a further length of pipe up the existing chimney ..... It wasn't going to be left at the base, floor level ..... the pipe was going up into the chimney... which he was planning on doing tommorrow

We call this a slammer type install, very dangerous for the reason of CO poisoning, (during the late stage of the fire the draft could weaken and CO gasses can slip from the chimney to your living space due to lack of a liner through out, if your asleep you may not wake up.

He has,already, mentioned CO poisoning, states this will not be a problem...


Best solution for this is to install your stove in relation to clearance specs, run a new chimney for that stove,

I,originally, intended, to have a stainless steel chimney coming out at the back of the property....  However, the installer, thinks it would be a very bad idea, as there are too many adjacent trees,at the rear of the property....  He says using the Original chimney is the only way to go with this installation ...


" close off the old chimney permanently, and get you money back from the first installer. (he really could have burnt your house down or worse, ended your life with his bad practices)  "

I have not, as yet, paid him a penny, was going to pay him, immediately, at the end of the job, which is tommorrow...
As you see in the photographs,  the downstairs room now has three massive ugly holes,  due to the installer, searching for the chimney, which he assumed he would find,behind the wall...
Unfortunately, he discovered the chimney only extends as far as the loft room .....

.


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## begreen (Sep 10, 2015)

This is a UK installation which will be regulated under UK rules. In the US there is are chimney sweep certification programs. I would go to a good stove shop, tell them you have a dangerous install that needs to be corrected, and ask for a certified sweep or installer.

If possible, have this person list exactly what they intend to do and post it here for review.

Note that in the US the stove pipe can not go through a wall or ceiling, no exceptions. It must become chimney pipe at that point.


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## Fire sprite (Sep 10, 2015)

jatoxico said:


> I looked to see if I could get the installation manual but could not. Do you have it? Would like to determine the clearances required by the manufacturer.


Yes, I hope it comes through ok ....


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## begreen (Sep 10, 2015)

Does the chimney continue down to the floor that the stove is on? If so I would investigate cutting a new hole for a thimble into the chimney on the same floor as the stove and well below the ceiling. The chimney will likely need a stainless liner if it is unlined now.


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## begreen (Sep 10, 2015)

The stove seems to be mostly designed for fireplace installation. However there are some parallels to US installation rules listed in the manual. Most importantly:
_The installer is responsible under the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 vi the caustic nature of fire cement and
the possibility of disturbing asbestos in existing installations and to suggest appropriate protection to be given to
the person(s) carrying out the installation.

1) This appliance must be installed by a *fully qualified heating engineer*. He is responsible to ensure that the
installation is in accordance with all currently accepted British Standards and Codes of Practice, particularly BS6461,
CP403 and BS5449, relating to the installation of solid fuel appliances.

2) The stove must be placed at least *40cm away* from any combustible materials. If necessary, any adjoining walls
should be protected from the effects of heat._

Page 11 has the clearances to combustibles listed for fireplace installation.


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## Fire sprite (Sep 10, 2015)

begreen said:


> Does the chimney continue down to the floor that the stove is on? If so I would investigate cutting a new hole for a thimble into the chimney on the same floor as the stove and well below the ceiling. The chimney will likely need a stainless liner if it is unlined now.



Most unfortunately, no, the chimney does not reach the floor of the room that the stove needs to be fitted in.....
Installer says, the existing chimney, was originally made, only to service an upstairs bedroom... He finds this most surprising..
Such a large chimney, is usually made for the main rooms,downstairs ...

It is not possible for the installer to use any type of liner in the chimney....... He can just barely get away with the narrow pipe he intends to use...
He planned to do this job as a favour for me,  he ~ Does Not, regard the install as a danger.... It is simply that ~Hetas regs would not accept such an installation...

In the old days,  before Hetas, and all the mod cons we now have, all folk had chimneys without liners..... 

I do not believe this guy would flout the rules wily nilly and seriously risk my life ......He was only trying to do me a favour after all ...


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## begreen (Sep 10, 2015)

Good intentions can still lead to grave consequences. As is this is the most dangerous installation I have seen in a while. 

Could the old brick chimney be removed and a metal high-temp, insulated (class A) chimney pipe run up in its place and extended down to the stove level?


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## DougA (Sep 10, 2015)

Fire sprite said:


> ...He was only trying to do me a favour after all ...


I've heard the same story too many times ... with horrible consequences.  It's up to you to determine how far you want to go with our advice.  My between the lines intuition is that you may not be able to afford a proper installation. So be it.  You need to know that it is dangerous the way it is. Most of us have seen dangerous installations and sometimes, the results are tragic, sometimes nothing bad ever happens.

Back to your original question - if the installer thinks the bird guard will clog up quickly, you are better not to use it. Anything that restricts the flow of heat in that chimney will make the dangerous installation, even more dangerous.  The downside is when you get a bird in the stove in the summer, open all your windows and doors first, then open the stove door and hopefully, he'll fly straight out a window. If not, you'll be cleaning up a lot of sooty walls.


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## jatoxico (Sep 10, 2015)

Obviously this has thrown a you for a loop and you are anxious to have this stove installed. You may even be willing to cut a few corners but take a step back and take stock. Remember the install not only needs to be safe for day to day operation (already highly questionable) but has to withstand/protect in the event of an over fired stove or worse yet a chimney fire.


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## Fire sprite (Sep 10, 2015)

begreen said:


> Good intentions can still lead to grave consequences. As is this is the most dangerous installation I have seen in a while.
> 
> Could the old brick chimney be removed and a metal high-temp, insulated (class A) chimney pipe run up in its place and extended down to the stove level?


 ~~~~~~~~~
What you suggest sounds like an excellent idea !  .....  But goodness knows how much it would cost to get the old solid chimney removed..
I could barely hope to cover the cost as it is ....

Frankly, I am just  sitting here shell shocked ......... I do so ~Hope, there is a solution to fitting the stove safely .....
I will introduce the installer to the forum tomorrow ......


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## begreen (Sep 10, 2015)

I removed two chimneys myself. Old chimneys usually come apart easily. The mortar is often dust. The main thing is getting rid of the bricks. Fortunately folks like to use them for garden pathways so ours went quickly.


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## Fire sprite (Sep 10, 2015)

jatoxico said:


> Obviously this has thrown a you for a loop and you are anxious to have this stove installed. You may even be willing to cut a few corners but take a step back and take stock. Remember the install not only needs to be safe for day to day operation (already highly questionable) but has to withstand/protect in the event of an over fired stove or worse yet a chimney fire.


You are right, of course .....
Unfortunately,desperation can make fools of us all  ........


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## kennyp2339 (Sep 10, 2015)

Perhaps tomorrow during the day light hours you can take outdoor pics of the existing chimney and also pics of the original area you wanted the stove installed, plus outdoor pics showing the tree problem.


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## begreen (Sep 10, 2015)

Fire sprite said:


> You are right, of course .....
> Unfortunately,desperation can make fools of us all  ........


This is definitely not a job for well intentioned friends. It could be a challenging install. We can't say or see all options from the internet. You need a certified professional sweep or stove installer to assess options and advise a safe course of action.


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## Fire sprite (Sep 10, 2015)

kennyp2339 said:


> Perhaps tomorrow during the day light hours you can take outdoor pics of the existing chimney and also pics of the original area you wanted the stove installed, plus outdoor pics showing the tree problem.



~~~~~~~~~

Sure. I will take a few snapshots tomorrow  ........ still trying to get through to the guy on the phone... but there's no answer
.....he will be turning up early morning otherwise..takes him an hour or so to drive down from where he lives  ....and the job has to be aborted now .......I have no idea what to expect ....


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## bholler (Sep 10, 2015)

I have to agree with everyone else.  I dont know the regulations in your country but i am positive there are tons of violations there.  It honestly is one of the most dangerous installs i have seen.


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## Fire sprite (Sep 10, 2015)

begreen said:


> This is definitely not a job for well intentioned friends. It could be a challenging install. We can't say or see all options from the internet. You need a certified professional sweep or stove installer to assess options and advise a safe course of action.



~~~~~~~~~

He is not a friend..... never met him until he turned up for the interview.... he ~IS, a Professional, Trained, Certified Hetas, stove installer ....
I believed him to be one of the best......until all your comments  .....


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## kennyp2339 (Sep 10, 2015)

Take it in stride, I know in the US, most stove manuals have a section for chimney hook ups
This link is for newer Harmony stoves available in the US, but this is what we are talking about, read through this and look at the clearances (yours may require more due to being an older unit) look at the different chimney hook ups.

http://www.efel-usa.com/Documents/OwnersManuals/EFEL_Harmony_Stanford_Owners_Manual.pdf


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## Fire sprite (Sep 10, 2015)

kennyp2339 said:


> Take it in stride, I know in the US, most stove manuals have a section for chimney hook ups
> This link is for newer Harmony stoves available in the US, but this is what we are talking about, read through this and look at the clearances (yours may require more due to being an older unit) look at the different chimney hook ups.
> 
> http://www.efel-usa.com/Documents/OwnersManuals/EFEL_Harmony_Stanford_Owners_Manual.pdf



~~~~~~~

Thank you for the manual.......I really think it best that the installer study all this .... Funny thing is when I offered to
send him an email with a PDF attachment of the Harmony 5 fitting manual he wasn't particularly interested...
He said all woodburners are different, he'd never heard off Efel before, said he knew nothing about it ....
Even when I was looking at the manual on my computer.... he didn't want to look....so I doubt he will be any different tomorrow ..


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## Fire sprite (Sep 10, 2015)

bholler said:


> I have to agree with everyone else.  I dont know the regulations in your country but i am positive there are tons of violations there.  It honestly is one of the most dangerous installs i have seen.



~~~~~~~~~
  I am  ~ Totally,~ Aghast at the amount of warnings  I am receiving from all you folk...... I mean This is ~ Seriously ~Scary !  
How could this happen ???   Why would an, obviously, respected and knowledgeable installer, ( been installing stoves for many years, I believe)
not only endanger my life.... but risk his own reputation......  ???  Doesn't make sense ... I  just ~_ Dont, Get it !_


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## bholler (Sep 10, 2015)

Fire sprite said:


> How could this happen ??? Why would an, obviously, respected and knowledgeable installer, ( been installing stoves for many years, I believe)
> not only endanger my life.... but risk his own reputation...... ??? Doesn't make sense ... I just ~ Dont, Get it !


I cant answer that it makes no sense to me either.  I have been doing this a long time and i would never risk your safety or my reputation just to get something done.  I will tell you i cant do it and walk away possibly loosing money before i do something dangerous like that.


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## Fire sprite (Sep 10, 2015)

Oh well..... Im going to hit the sack now ...... need to wind down ......  tomorrow morning ain't gonna be fun .....


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## bholler (Sep 10, 2015)

Fire sprite said:


> Oh well..... Im going to hit the sack now ...... need to wind down ...... tomorrow morning ain't gonna be fun .....


situations like this never are. good luck to you


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## begreen (Sep 11, 2015)

Fire sprite said:


> He said all woodburners are different, he'd never heard off Efel before, said he knew nothing about it


That is a warning sign. Efel is an old and well known company. I think your best bet is to cut your losses here and don't invite him back.


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## Fire sprite (Sep 12, 2015)

Installer turned up yesterday, I was unable to stop his arrival as his phone was out of signal ....Soon as he arrived I offered him a cup of tea, asked him to sit down.... and I introduced him to the forum ... He was astonished, alarmed and hurt that I had uploaded photos of his unfinished work .... 
However, It had never even crossed my mind that he would be deemed as having done anything untoward ....I did not, by any means, post the thread with malicious intent ...

He ~Swore, to me that the finished product would be safe....that he would not endanger my life ....

Naturally, he wants to be paid..... and,of course, it is going to cost me thousands   ...Yet, if I pay him,
I will not only be parting with a lot of money that I can ill afford  ... but I might also be dicing with my life on a dubious install
......  I am in a terrible predicament,  which is neither, really his nor my fault...... he was not aware of the complexity of the chimney... until it was too late.... and he had, already, committed himself, invested a lot of time and effort in the work....

He, also, knew, that I did not have a lot of money to play with .... so did not want to let me down  ...

Early this morning I awoke to the most frightening pain I have  ~Ever, experienced in the back of my leg like it was going to explode ..... ( a kind of  "Charlie horse "perhaps  ... )  I have had the very rare occasional twinge in the past, but ~ Nothing like that, I was almost howling  ..... Also, perhaps, even more ominously, just before I awoke..... between sleep and the awakened state....... before I  had opened my eyelids ... just for a few split seconds,  I saw, quite vividly, nothing but bright orange flames ...... 
Somewhere along the line looks like someone's got to be the loser ... _*If*_ I must die in flames then,at least, it will be an honourable death ..... I, for one, am not about to descend to  the"dog eat dog " mentality, it is not my way .....


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## begreen (Sep 12, 2015)

This is going to be a difficult install. Removing the old chimney is probably what I would do. Then there is a clear shot for a proper metal chimney. Nothing should be done without first presenting a written proposal that you can digest and consult on. Do this for multiple installers. Contact local stove shops and ask who is the best. Maybe also ask the local fire dept. and insurance companies who they recommend.

I feel for your dilemma but you are right to not compromise safety. I'm pretty sure that the current installation proposed has to be against local fire and building code. If there is a local fire marshal that does local inspections that is the authority to ask.

PS: On the leg cramps, do you take a statin like Lipitor? High dosages of statins can cause severe muscle cramps. I've had some real doozies until the dosage was backed off.


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## jatoxico (Sep 12, 2015)

Fire sprite said:


> which is neither, really his nor my fault...... he was not aware of the complexity of the chimney... until it was too late.... and he had, already, committed himself, invested a lot of time and effort in the work....
> 
> I, for one, am not about to descend to  the"dog eat dog " mentality, it is not my way .....



If he was unable to accurately estimate the job and was surprised by what he found as he opened up the ceiling and walls, well...he should have had the experience to at worst, say that up front. It's understandable that this sometimes happens. Even the most seasoned pro gets surprised now and then but what he finds once the demo starts but you can't let the install be unsafe because he underbid.

You clearly don't want to hurt this guy financially or otherwise so if you still have a working relationship just tell him you don't like the direction this is going and want to re-start. He should stop now before he puts any more time into what looks like a failed plan. Then either use him to go with your original idea of running proper pipe outside or possibly better, go with BG's idea of taking out the old chimney which may go much easier than you imagine.

In any case good luck and please keep us posted. Would like to know how this turns out.


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## turn_n_burn (Sep 21, 2015)

Wow, this reads like a good cliffhanger. Sprite, I know all of this info was probably very painful to hear, but always keep in mind those on this forum are looking out for your best interests. It sounds to me like your installer was not only ignorant of some very important fundamental standards and building codes, but the part that really got me was when you mentioned offering to show him the stove and specification manuals, and he refused to look at them. That was a huge red flag. If I was changing out the engine on a Vauxhall or Peugeot, I would want to see the shop manual, because I'm really only familiar with Ford and General Motors. Definitely keep us posted on this, we're all rootin' for you.
Oh, and a bit to add to what begreen (thank you for bringing that up by the way, green) mentioned about the leg cramps/statin drug thing....If that's a major issue, please get that checked out, and also stay away from grapefruit juice while taking these. Rhabdomiolysis is a very serious condition, and the juice multiplies the level of the drug in your system. I was a pharmacy tech for years and this was ALWAYS something the pharmacist warned people about. 

*Pob lwc!*


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