# My first 650 miles with a BEV



## EbS-P (Apr 7, 2022)

My trip odometer on my new to me BEV (2016 Model X P100d) clicked over 500 650 miles this this week and I thought I would share some of my thoughts.  So far I have resisted the urge to leverage this to catapult me to YouTube fame. (I’m so over I have a Tesla I’m a  wannabe YouTube star but I’d be lying if I told you the thought never crossed my mind).  

It’s been a busy 6 weeks. the car arrived two weeks early after a significant delay but none of that matter except we we’re expecting another baby and she arrived two weeks after the the car.  We weren’t prepared… for the car (she’s our fifth we thought we had that routine all down….  she was born on the bedroom floor  totally not intentional.).   We didn’t have a home charger yet.  

So serval trips and nights nights in the hospital were spent Thinking the baby was coming but wasn’t. That meant I had to plan trips to the supercharging station. It’s only 2.5 miles from the house, less than 10 minutes.  This should have been fine.  Free supercharging transferred with the car.  And it worked 4/6 times I went to charge.  Twice I got a charge error that google hadn’t even heard of.  Tesla customer service over the phone was helpful in so far yep that’s an error can you get to the service center 180 miles away.   Each time I was able to plug into an AC charger and able to charge fine.  After the first error I placed an order the a wall charger and after the second, made time to install it. (Remember that whole new baby thing, time is tight).  

So you have the back story. 


Since installing my home chargers I have not felt any range anxiety. At most I drive 60 miles a day with 30 being average.  Once I was able to plug in at home it felt like a regular car.  (The model X is the least regular car I’ve ever driven. Previous drivers ranged from MG midgets to wheat trucks but you get my point).   The 2011 Odyssey   Has 100 miles on its current tank of gas that was fueled before X arrived.  We still need it.  There are 7 of us. Tesla seats 6, not much room for stuff.  

After reading up on the EV production landscape I’m sold that Tesla has and will have the best overall product available for at least the next 2-5 years.  Ford will be their only competition until a new foreign automaker gains traction in the US.  I don’t think anyone can touch their self driving software.  


Teslas First gen infotainment computer is slow.  The driving computer is equally slow to boot but runs FSD. (Who is still using a five year old laptop or computer every day). Rated mileages are smoke an mirrors.  If it’s cold or hot or you leave it parked it drains the battery and cuts your range. my best guess is the consumption Wh/mile is about 1.5x  larger than stated.  617 miles driven and the display is stating I used 220 KWhr.  350ish kw hr per mile.  Nope more like 500 kwhr per miles.  I’m sure newer BEV will be or are doing better but think how many used BEVs will be sold in the future.  Heavy Tesla’s eat tires.  20-25k miles on a set seems normal.  I just put on a new set of Michelin Crossclimate SUV. Tires. I like the regular version on my van.  So yeah let’s put them on a super car.  Oh and they are directional and the X has different sized front and rear tires.   So you never need to rotate them.  We’ll see how that works out.  But if it ever snows down here I have an all wheel drive SUV with triple peak snowflake tires.  (It’s the winter tire rating but they have really good wet traction and that was all that was buying on). 

My advice. Plan now for home charging.  Takes only time to give it some thought. Where will you charge how much range do you need for your daily driving?   I don’t think the BEV can ever replace a ICE vehicle for us.  We now have 3 Registered and insured autos.  Seems excessive but they are paid for and the SO doesn’t have to drive a minivan, ever.  Sure I could replace the RAV4 with a BEV but it won’t save money. And it sees less than 4K miles a year.  

The BEV market is going to see unpressurized growth in the next 24 months.  Brands we’ve never heard of will start making strong plays for market share.   google Vinfast.  I’m betting that you have a 50/50 chance that if buy a car over 30K in 2 years it will be a BEV.  


Well that’s enough.  I like the Battery Car.  It’s got it’s quarks. I have  probably ruined every other car purchase I will ever make.  But for now driving is easy.  I’ll let know what my service experience is. 

Evan


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## semipro (Apr 7, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> We now have 3 Registered and insured autos. Seems excessive but they are paid for and the SO doesn’t have to drive a minivan, ever. Sure I could replace the RAV4 with a BEV but it won’t save money. And it sees less than 4K miles a year.


It's funny you should mention this.  With 2 drivers and 3 cars at our house, we're looking to downsize.  Our experience with our 2015 Leaf has convinced us that an EV with a range of about 40 miles handles about 95% of our trips.  Enter the Toyota RAV4 Prime PHEV with an advertised EV range of about 40 miles - perfect since we need to take occasional trips on routes without good charging coverage.  We thought we'd buy the RAV4 PHEV and get rid of the Leaf and our aging Highlander hybrid (the other vehicle is a Tacoma).  Trouble is, the RAV4 PHEV is apparently made of semi-unobtanium and Toyota will soon hit its limit on federal EV tax credits.  

I guess we'll probably be looking for a used one later on.


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## begreen (Apr 7, 2022)

Congratulations on the newborn Evan. It sounds like you have your hands full. Hope the oldest can pitch in and help mom. 

True that foreign mfgs. are moving along, but I have to disagree with the assessment of the US car market. GM is definitely not snoozing. The Bolt is back in production and the new generation of trucks and vehicles are looking good so far. More vehicles built on the Ulitium platform coming next year and following. Rivian would double production if it weren't for supply issues. FCA has an EV Jeep.  Honda and GM are also partnering to make under $30k EVs.


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## EbS-P (Apr 7, 2022)

begreen said:


> Congratulations on the newborn Evan. It sounds like you have your hands full. Hope the oldest can pitch in and help mom.
> 
> True that foreign mfgs. are moving along, but I have to disagree with the assessment of the US car market. GM is definitely not snoozing. The Bolt is back in production and the new generation of trucks and vehicles are looking good so far. More vehicles built on the Ulitium platform coming next year and following. Rivian would double production if it weren't for supply issues. FCA has an EV Jeep.  Honda and GM are also partnering to make under $30k EVs.


Thanks!   Its been a busy spring.  The oldest turned 11 two weeks ago.  Told me last week he wanted to split some firewood.  A baby girl couldn’t ever find 4 more loving big brothers.    

I’m excited to see what happens.  I hope trucks don’t dominate the US market. I wondering what choices the the big three will make  if faced with scare supplies.  I hope the Bolt comes back strong.


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## begreen (Apr 7, 2022)

The 2023 Blazer EV is coming out next. Next will be the Equinox EV in fall 2023. I suspect it will replace the Bolt, but not sure.


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## mcdougy (Apr 8, 2022)

The finish line draws closer for gas powered vehicles at Ontario CAMI plant
					

After more than three decades of production, it’s getting closer to the end of the line for the last fossil fuel-dependent vehicles at GM’s CAMI plant in Ingersoll.




					beta.ctvnews.ca
				




This might interest a family of 7?


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## EbS-P (Apr 8, 2022)

mcdougy said:


> The finish line draws closer for gas powered vehicles at Ontario CAMI plant
> 
> 
> After more than three decades of production, it’s getting closer to the end of the line for the last fossil fuel-dependent vehicles at GM’s CAMI plant in Ingersoll.
> ...


We are definitely  sized for a 9k+ GVWR van when we vacation I do find it interesting that neither ford or bright drop are offering passenger versions of their battery vans.  





						BrightDrop Zevo | All-Electric Delivery Van
					

The future of electric delivery vans is here with Zevo.  A light weight, long range, zero emissions vehicle designed to maximize last mile deliveries.




					www.gobrightdrop.com


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## stoveliker (Apr 8, 2022)

I think that's a scale issue; see.if it works well in a larger frame like this - but supplying (many) fleet vehicles. If that works well, convert the frame to passenger van and add to the line.


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## EbS-P (Apr 8, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> I think that's a scale issue; see.if it works well in a larger frame like this - but supplying (many) fleet vehicles. If that works well, convert the frame to passenger van and add to the line.


I agree.  I think I read that Fords EV lines will be built in different places than the ICE.  Makes sense not to build the tooling that you don’t know if you need yet.


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## EbS-P (Apr 8, 2022)

semipro said:


> It's funny you should mention this.  With 2 drivers and 3 cars at our house, we're looking to downsize.  Our experience with our 2015 Leaf has convinced us that an EV with a range of about 40 miles handles about 95% of our trips.  Enter the Toyota RAV4 Prime PHEV with an advertised EV range of about 40 miles - perfect since we need to take occasional trips on routes without good charging coverage.  We thought we'd buy the RAV4 PHEV and get rid of the Leaf and our aging Highlander hybrid (the other vehicle is a Tacoma).  Trouble is, the RAV4 PHEV is apparently made of semi-unobtanium and Toyota will soon hit its limit on federal EV tax credits.
> 
> I guess we'll probably be looking for a used one later on.


There has been a lot of demand for the RAV4 prime.  I think it’s a great concept.  I have to question why they didn’t do a prime Sienna or Highlander?   Moot point if you can’t actually buy one.    I think the limited number manufacturer EV tax credits worked to speed up innovation but it’s now going to hinder wide scale adoption.  We need something else.  I argue switching to a used BEV should be encouraged too.  At this point it probably needs to include electrical grid improvements to power companies who could could intern incentive home charging with rebates.  

I’ve often taken the Swiss Army knife approach to vehicles.  Get the that does the the most things but isn’t the very best at a single thing.   Having a large family used to mean a big full sized SUV was the answer.  I don’t want to drive one everyday. So we got a minivan.  Issue is now we can’t even pull a pop up tent trailer that would fit our family for say a 2-3 week vacation.   We want to travel.  Probably not camp every night but we enjoy the outdoors. I just don’t see a BEV being able to accomplish this. We aren’t like most families.   Meet the Sequoia hybrid.  Two kids ago sure.  Not big enough for 7 and a dog when you have to evacuate.   
	

		
			
		

		
	





So I’m wondering if I have to rethink my Swiss Army knife approach?  BEV around town that just barely has enough room, and a big ICE power van (or SUV).  The whole battery powered keep concept with a manual transmission and what a silly idea that is to me got me thinking about what compromises I have made and will be willing to make on a very purpose built vehicle.


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## peakbagger (Apr 8, 2022)

IMO, Toyota needed a PR vehicle, Rav 4s are popular and already configured as a hybrid. My belief is Toyota was planning to lose money on everyone they sold and priced it to take maximum advantage of the EV credit (soon to be no longer for Toyotas). The first shipments tended to be lower profit SEs and once they thought they had a hit, they shifted more production to the XSE and more deluxe models with lots of more profitable options on each one. The SE pricing was intended to make them competitive with other brands once the $7,500 credit was deducted. They are only built in Japan and shipped around the world. Japan is no longer a low cost production country so that adds cost. 

Toyota had been holding off on BEVs as a corporate decision, they prefer hybrids and were guessing that battery vehicles would be beaten out by hydrogen. Unfortunately that was a PR disaster and they made the decision to get a plug in hybrid out on the road to get back some good PR. Note the announced full battery Toyota is actually a Subaru. Toyota has now made a big investment in US battery manufacturing line so they will be increasing their offerings.


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## begreen (Apr 8, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> We are definitely  sized for a 9k+ GVWR van when we vacation I do find it interesting that neither ford or bright drop are offering passenger versions of their battery vans.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think as the market matures that EV vans and minivans will start showing up.


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## begreen (Apr 8, 2022)

peakbagger said:


> IMO, Toyota needed a PR vehicle, Rav 4s are popular and already configured as a hybrid. My belief is Toyota was planning to lose money on everyone they sold and priced it to take maximum advantage of the EV credit (soon to be no longer for Toyotas).


Toyota and Subaru have collaborated on an EV project. Look at the Subaru 2023 Solterra EV SUV and coming soon its doppelganger, the Toyota bZ4x.


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## woodgeek (Apr 9, 2022)

Congrats on lil #5, and joining the lifestyle.  I got EV#1 way back in 2014, as a second car with wife (#2) and two small kids.  Now I'm a happily divorced empty nester, and on my 3rd EV.   

Both kids learned to drive on EVs, and when they have to drive an ICE car say 'Why does it make that rumbling noise all the time?'  

Enjoy!


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## woodgeek (Apr 9, 2022)

Oh, and your car will give the rated Wh/mi or mi/kWh when it is warm out and not raining.  Like SoCal weather.  Just wait for it to warm up a little more.

Oh, and I tend to park in the sun in the winter and in the shade in the summer.


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## begreen (Apr 10, 2022)

Preheating the car interior with remote start while it's still plugged into the charger helps quite a bit too.


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## EbS-P (Apr 15, 2022)

So I wanted to check how much electricity I’m using.  Now that I’m charging at home. Heatpump hasn’t been on much in April so this represents our total family energy consumption plus a couples gallons of gas for the van. (Less than 5)

Roughly after all the fees we pay $0.134 per KWh on about 900 kWh bill.  7% tax is included and a 14$ service fee.  So the whopping total to drive 150–180 miles a week is about 10 kWh a day or $1.34.  I’m impressed.  So one EV uses less electricity than our AC during the summer.  And I probably supercharged for 80 kWh each month. 

Charger was installed on March 12.  I feel I could geek out about the numbers and get a system to monitor just how much electricity I’m using to charge but I never cared how much gas I used in a month. So this is as detailed as I think will get.   What I save over gas  might just pay for the tires

Evan


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## SpaceBus (Apr 15, 2022)

Does the novelty of near silent propulsion ever wear off?


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## EbS-P (Apr 15, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> Does the novelty of near silent propulsion ever wear off?


Lol.  With kids it’s never silent… but musk did figure out how to connect the right pedal to facial control muscles.  The further is goes down the bigger you smile   and no it’s not getting old.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 15, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> Lol.  With kids it’s never silent… but musk did figure out how to connect the right pedal to facial control muscles.  The further is goes down the bigger you smile   and no it’s not getting old.


I've never been in a fast EV, but I can only imagine it feels like my diesel truck, but silent and "geared" for acceleration.


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## stoveliker (Apr 15, 2022)

It does not feel at all like a diesel truck...
(Only been in a Tesla once.)


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## EbS-P (Apr 15, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> I've never been in a fast EV, but I can only imagine it feels like my diesel truck, but silent and "geared" for acceleration.


That instant torque at any moment is like nothing I have ever felt. I drove the van this week.  You got the gas nothing happened makes noise downshifts still no change in acceleration.  It’s kinda weird to have to have a transmission shift.    I do remember the first time got my grandfathers powerstroke on the highway all to myself.  It’s kinda like that but…. In the time it takes get the turbo spooled you are already going 60.


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## EbS-P (Apr 15, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> It does not feel at all like a diesel truck...
> (Only been in a Tesla once.)


Feeling your insides rearranged is a feeling I never had in a truck.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 15, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> It does not feel at all like a diesel truck...
> (Only been in a Tesla once.)





EbS-P said:


> That instant torque at any moment is like nothing I have ever felt. I drove the van this week.  You got the gas nothing happened makes noise downshifts still no change in acceleration.  It’s kinda weird to have to have a transmission shift.    I do remember the first time got my grandfathers powerstroke on the highway all to myself.  It’s kinda like that but…. In the time it takes get the turbo spooled you are already going 60.


Apparently my turbo spools a lot faster than those 7.3's, because I hit the accelerator and my truck just goes. It's way too heavy, the gearing is too short, and the powerband is short to really accelerate quickly, but I've seen modded diesel trucks put down tesla numbers. I was really trying to get an idea of torque delivery. It must be weird not having any gear changes, ever. I wouldn't mind not having a manual transmission if there are no gear changes anyway.


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## stoveliker (Apr 15, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> Feeling your insides rearranged is a feeling I never had in a truck.



Yeah. That was more like a jet engine for me.


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## begreen (Apr 15, 2022)

The very fastest are more akin to a slingshot.


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## EbS-P (Apr 15, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> Apparently my turbo spools a lot faster than those 7.3's, because I hit the accelerator and my truck just goes. It's way too heavy, the gearing is too short, and the powerband is short to really accelerate quickly, but I've seen modded diesel trucks put down tesla numbers. I was really trying to get an idea of torque delivery. It must be weird not having any gear changes, ever. I wouldn't mind not having a manual transmission if there are no gear changes anyway.


700 ft lbs from 0 rpm to 156 mph.  I was probably exaggerating bit on how slow the 7.3 was but it didn’t even have 500 ft lbs.

 A nice hot rod that you built for the strip but can still drive around town but have a pair of slicks for is probably the best comparison.    It’s a different feeling without the gears.   It’s a super car that can pass as a minivan.


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## ABMax24 (Apr 15, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> It does not feel at all like a diesel truck...
> (Only been in a Tesla once.)





EbS-P said:


> Feeling your insides rearranged is a feeling I never had in a truck.



You just haven't been in the right truck I guess.

I used to own an LB7 Duramax, that suffice to say wasn't stock. It surprised more than a few Mustangs and Camaros, and even a vette. By time their traction control light stopped flashing my built Allison was in 2nd gear and looking for 3rd. The beauty of 4 wheel drive.

I'm sure it wouldn't compare to a Model X, but that truck was probably the most fun I've ever had on 4 wheels.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 16, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> Yeah. That was more like a jet engine for me.


I've been in some fast trucks I suppose.


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## EbS-P (Apr 16, 2022)

ABMax24 said:


> You just haven't been in the right truck I guess.
> 
> I used to own an LB7 Duramax, that suffice to say wasn't stock. It surprised more than a few Mustangs and Camaros, and even a vette. By time their traction control light stopped flashing my built Allison was in 2nd gear and looking for 3rd. The beauty of 4 wheel drive.
> 
> I'm sure it wouldn't compare to a Model X, but that truck was probably the most fun I've ever had on 4 wheels.


I had to look this up for perspective.  Model X P100d  let’s just call 0-60 time 3,0 seconds.  Look when the corvette broke 4.0.   C6 Z06.  When did it hit 3.0?  2015 with a C7 Z06.    I only bring this up to highlight what an amazing engineering feat Tesla achieved.  Three row seating and straight line performance of a at the time it was released as good or better than the highest performing corvette.  It amazes me. 









						Corvette 0-60 mph Acceleration Times (Over the Years)
					

0-60 mph acceleration times for every Corvette Model Year. We compare all model years in an informative table and cool interactive chart.




					www.corvsport.com


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## stoveliker (Apr 16, 2022)

Is it an engineering feat or more an other technology with more torque at low speed? I thought the drive train in electric cars is not so high tech (as in "amazing"). 

I.e. is this not more the properties of the (old) technology used in electric cars?


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## semipro (Apr 16, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> Yeah. That was more like a jet engine for me.


I agree.  I've spent a lot of time in a variety of fast ICE cars and launched a Tesla S P90D in Ludicrous mode more than 30 times and that feeling of constant, hard acceleration without wheel slip or variation from ICE power bands, turbo engagement,  and transmission shifting is really much more like takeoff in a jet aircraft. 
Somehow the lack of ICE engine noise seems to accentuate the perception of inertia and lateral acceleration.


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## peakbagger (Apr 16, 2022)

IMO when you get down to 0 to 60 times, traction is real important. Look at rail dragster and the weight is designed to transfer to really bug sticky tires that get warmed up in a bleach pit. Not very practical for a regular car. AWD helps a lot as the horsepower can be delivered to the wheels that have the most traction. BEVs also have a lot of ballast down low as the battery packs are usually mounted low and between the axles to protect them from accidents, that helps traction. Electric motors have almost full rated torque from 0 RPM and the electric motors have far less rotating mass thus less inertia to accelerate. Electrical current is significantly faster than flow of air through an intake tract so from point of throttle application to full power an electric motor will ramp up faster. 

Batteries do have to fly on the hairy edge of shorting out versus putting out useful power but Lithium chemistry is better than prior chemistries at peak current delivery.  Ideally capacitors are even faster at discharge and that is one of the reasons that fuel cell vehicles usually have capacitor banks to deal with short term power demand.  There can be a downside to very fast electric vehicles, battery life is somewhat dependent on peak discharge cycles, build a "hot" battery and discharge it quick and it will have shorter life than a battery that is not discharged as quickly.


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## EbS-P (Apr 16, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> Is it an engineering feat or more an other technology with more torque at low speed? I thought the drive train in electric cars is not so high tech (as in "amazing").
> 
> I.e. is this not more the properties of the (old) technology used in electric cars?


Tesla decided to start from the ground up.  They needed materials that didn’t exist.  It started with engineering the materials. The packaging and system integration is an engineering feat as is constructing the assembly line.  There have been lots of big powerful electrical motors for many many decades.  Making one fit in a car and has a max 18k rpm and Has a whole vehicle reliable enough not to loose money is.   They even engineered a new oil for the gearbox and motor.    It’s more than old technology in applied in a different or new way IMO.


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## stoveliker (Apr 16, 2022)

I think their marketing is great. Sure they engineered quite a bit. But a new oil, and fitting it in a small space etc is not the "amazing feat" that makes the car drive like a jet engine. Silicon carbide is not a new material. Decades of materials research went into that. Same for the aluminum alloys they use.

In fact, if you read what the (their) engineers say, it's "the adoption of new materials" (in car mfg), not the development of new materials. So, yes, new - for cars. Not new as in "did not exist before and its properties were not known".

It's been hyped. That's my opinion. That does not take away from the fact that it's a fantastic car.


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## begreen (Apr 16, 2022)

I greatly respect the engineering that has gone into Teslas. The crossover in metallurgy from SpaceX to the automobile is a game-changer. It's ironic that a lust for power and speed is more the motivation for these vehicles for many than practical transportation that reduces our carbon footprint. A lot of these vehicles are toys for the elite instead of mass replacements for the daily commuter. Hopefully, this trend will change, and soon.


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## woodgeek (Apr 16, 2022)

Re Tesla engineering, I think both sides are right.  Advances AND hype.  When they were a little startup, TESLA 'technology' was mostly off the shelf materials and things like battery cells.  Once they had a market and oodles of cash THEN they started doing some heavy R&D, while keeping up the hype.  

Elon has a bump for building the machine that builds the machine... automated factories.  A lot of their tech is engineering the cars to be manufacturable.  This ofc in NOT a new invention (I think Toyota was a pioneer), but he does it.

Large companies used to have a rule of thumb to plow some amount of their profits into R&D for the next generation of products.  IMO this was what led to most of the innovations of the modern age, yet many US companies stopped doing this in the 1980s (when tax writeoffs for R&D became less lucrative).  Most large foreign companies kept on spending on R&D, which is why a lot of the last few decades advances (Lithium batteries, LED flat panels, LED lighting, etc) came from overseas.  Elon is following them: plowing profits into both growing the production capacity AND R&D.

If you look at spaceX, similar trends.  There is nothing new under the sun, Elon picks and chooses and combines the best engineering practices from a wide variety of sources. His rocket engines are riffs on Soviet designs (which were always way better than ours) and often soviet metallurgy (also better).


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## stoveliker (Apr 16, 2022)

I agree they are good engineers.

I fell over the they needed new materials and developed them as an explanation for the fast acceleration.

The latter is due to the high torque at start up, and that is not due to new materials. It's the nature of the beast (electric motor).

New materials are rare and far in between and take years if not decades to come out of a lab. They did not develop them, they found them (in the literature) and figured out a way to use them to their advantage.  That is the strength and creativity that underlies the Tesla approach: look farther than others and find material design better suited for their needs that others had not thought of. It is the open eye, out of the box (really, landing rocket motors to reuse them?) that is the asset of the culture in this company, imo.


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## EbS-P (Apr 16, 2022)

begreen said:


> I greatly respect the engineering that has gone into Teslas. The crossover in metallurgy from SpaceX to the automobile is a game-changer. It's ironic that a lust for power and speed is more the motivation for these vehicles for many than practical transportation that reduces our carbon footprint. A lot of these vehicles are toys for the elite instead of mass replacements for the daily commuter. Hopefully, this trend will change, and soon.


I have similar feeling.  There just isn’t enough profit in the economy car markets.  Manufacturing scale might bring down the cost and increase profit but why when you are making expensive  cars as fast as you can and selling them before they role off the line.  what motivation do you have to change. The model 3 was supposed to the civic Camry equivalent.  That not the case now.  I do appreciate the plan that you would effectively sell to the wealthy to finance your lower margin products but you have to follow through with those products. and I don’t see demand for the current lineup changing in 24 months.  After that changes may be afoot but how much market share does Tesla have by then? I think the small economy market will be dominated by China and possibly other Asian manufacturers.  Americans like the autos BIG.


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## woodgeek (Apr 16, 2022)

While the sticker price of a Model 3 and Camry are different, I suspect the total cost of ownership might be a lot closer given the high price of gas, and much lower maintenance of the EV.  Not to mention the much higher resale for the EV.


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## peakbagger (Apr 16, 2022)

Cost of ownership comparisons are not really fair as few states have dealt with the gas tax issue. EVs somehow have to pay their way for road maintenance and right now most are getting a free ride. The problem is pay per mile is the logical approach but many fight it. IMO it really needs to be pay per mile with curb weight factored in as road damages are not linear, heavier vehicles do far more damage than lighter weight vehicles.


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## ABMax24 (Apr 16, 2022)

begreen said:


> I greatly respect the engineering that has gone into Teslas. The crossover in metallurgy from SpaceX to the automobile is a game-changer. It's ironic that a lust for power and speed is more the motivation for these vehicles for many than practical transportation that reduces our carbon footprint. A lot of these vehicles are toys for the elite instead of mass replacements for the daily commuter. Hopefully, this trend will change, and soon.



Batteries are expensive, when that changes so will the production of economy EVs.

It costs very little to make a 400hp EV vs a 200hp EV, because for battery tech range is the limitation, not peak output. The motor can have a duty cycle, allowing it to run at high output for short periods, knowing 400hp will only be used in short bursts, saving material.

I can buy a new Honda Civic for about the cost of a Model 3 battery replacement. I can buy a lot of gas with the $40k price difference.


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## begreen (Apr 16, 2022)

It's the 900+hp models I am talking about. To handle that power the motors need to be larger and beefier along with other components to handle the stresses. And it takes a lot more battery power, cooling, and engineering to run it under that high amperage depletion rate. That means more expense in the suspension too.  It's unnecessary and often dangerous because people don't know how to drive with that kind of acceleration.


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## sloeffle (Apr 18, 2022)

ABMax24 said:


> I can buy a new Honda Civic for about the cost of a Model 3 battery replacement. I can buy a lot of gas with the $40k price difference.


No to derail this thread, but that's where I'm at too. I can't stomach spending 50 - 100k on a decent size ( bolt and leaf are too small IMHO ) electric vehicle when I only drive 6k miles a year at best. I'll never get my money back. When the price of electric vehicles come down to the current cost of a ICE car then I'll be interested. I'm definitely going to look at a hybrid for my next vehicle because the payback is definitely there.


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## EbS-P (Apr 18, 2022)

woodgeek said:


> While the sticker price of a Model 3 and Camry are different, I suspect the total cost of ownership might be a lot closer given the high price of gas, and much lower maintenance of the EV.  Not to mention the much higher resale for the EV.


Teslas eat tires. Only getting 20-25k miles a set seems average. And they aren’t cheap sizes either.  Woman stopped me and asked where I got my set. She had been quoted 1800$ for her model Y.  I would like to to see the TCOs updated for current prices. But I have seen a civic on the Honda lot so it might be meaningless right now.


sloeffle said:


> No to derail this thread, but that's where I'm at too. I can't stomach spending 50 - 100k on a electric vehicle when I only drive 6k miles a year at best. I'll never get my money back. When the price of electric vehicles come down to the current cost of a ICE car then I'll be interested. I'm definitely going to look at a hybrid for my next vehicle because the payback is definitely there.


I agree with you completely.  I am very very fortunate   for the deal I got on mine.  Even a new 7 seat model Y is like 67k$.  I still don’t see that making money sense. But I am willing spend some money to be environmentally friendly.  Probably 100$ max a month. Call it 12,000-24,000$ for the life of the car.   So may be the Y is now in my budget thinking 10-20 years out.  Think we will see 20 year old Teslas on the road?


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## EbS-P (Apr 18, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> I think their marketing is great. Sure they engineered quite a bit. But a new oil, and fitting it in a small space etc is not the "amazing feat" that makes the car drive like a jet engine. Silicon carbide is not a new material. Decades of materials research went into that. Same for the aluminum alloys they use.
> 
> In fact, if you read what the (their) engineers say, it's "the adoption of new materials" (in car mfg), not the development of new materials. So, yes, new - for cars. Not new as in "did not exist before and its properties were not known".
> 
> It's been hyped. That's my opinion. That does not take away from the fact that it's a fantastic car.


This is a good simple take on Teslas’ greatest  achievement. They didn’t go bankrupt. 








						Tesla's Most Noteworthy Achievement Is Not What You Think It Is
					

Tesla's most noteworthy achievement isn't what you might think it is. Although Tesla has several of these,




					cleantechnica.com


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## begreen (Apr 18, 2022)

sloeffle said:


> No to derail this thread, but that's where I'm at too. I can't stomach spending 50 - 100k on a decent size ( bolt and leaf are too small IMHO ) electric vehicle when I only drive 6k miles a year at best. I'll never get my money back. When the price of electric vehicles come down to the current cost of a ICE car then I'll be interested. I'm definitely going to look at a hybrid for my next vehicle because the payback is definitely there.


Agreed. For us, the Volt turned out to be a good compromise. It was affordable and with a 65 mile battery range, it covers most of our driving. If we go on a  longer trip it switches over to gas (or I do it manually). The other thing is that Musk has tried too hard to make his latest vehicles into a kid's dream of a spaceship.  He is an engineering genius, but immature in several ways, some of which percolate into the car's design.  I don't like all the controls being on a touch screen including basic vehicle info like speed. For my wife driving, this would be a showstopper. And I really don't like the yoke steering wheel.


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## EbS-P (Apr 18, 2022)

begreen said:


> Agreed. For us, the Volt turned out to be a good compromise. It was affordable and with a 65 mile battery range, it covers most of our driving. If we go on a  longer trip it switches over to gas (or I do it manually). The other thing is that Musk has tried too hard to make his latest vehicles into a kid's dream of a spaceship.  He is an engineering genius, but immature in several ways, some of which percolate into the car's design.  I don't like all the controls being on a touch screen including basic vehicle info like speed. For my wife driving, this would be a showstopper. And I really don't like the yoke steering wheel.


I thought the lack of buttons and physical controls would be an issue for me too but after 2 months it’s not a big deal.  Most common buttons can be mapped to steering wheel controls.  Not sure what the 3 and y have but once you set a driver profile the only buttons I use are music/radio buttons and climate control.  I still have the manual Louvers on the vents but the only time I need to adjust them is because someone else moved them.  The 3 and Y they would just be part of my profile.  Looking at the videos of the new Kia it has touchscreen and physical controls, they seem redundant now.   My TV when  from 5 buttons to 1 and then to none when it broke.  I miss them but it just means I need get a really really big remote so it can’t ever get lost.  But it’s lost half the time and we still use the TV just fine.  
Voice recognition and being comfortable with it help.  The internet connection and media computer in my Tesla are slow so it’s only about 50% functional.  

The yoke, well I’m kinda with you there but I do see a day where it’s drive by wire.  And then it really never HAS to rotate  more than 180 degrees.   I’m excited to see alternatives that other manufacturers put forward.  What’s the EV equivalent of a Corolla with manual windows and a 5 speed. Do they even sells cars with manual windows anymore?


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## EbS-P (Apr 23, 2022)

1100 mile update (let’s call it 1000 for easy math).  And for easy math let’s say it cost me 500 kWh or 65$.  Gas for the minivan 16 mpg gas at 4$ a gallon so 250$.  So I saved low balling it 185$ for every 1000 miles.  So if a BEV is good for 100k miles I save 18500$ but you have to subtract the annual 140$ EV registration fee soooo.  If you put on 10k miles a year you save 1700$ if gas is 4$ a gallon and power rate is 0.13$/ kWh.  I didn’t factor in oil changes or maintenance I figure that’s a discussion for another time.  

Interesting wrinkle will be power and gas costs over the life of the BEV.  It makes me wonder if a solar instal doesn’t make more sense.  I don’t have a great location but an off grid install might make money sense and offer backup power during extended outages, grid tied is probably cheaper.  

Any way the more I learn about my Tesla the more hesitant I am to recommend any Tesla as replacement for an ICE for someone who doesn’t want to think about the vehicle and just get in every day and have it drive.   Case in point the X and S do not have adjustable camber suspension.  And that’s probably fine except they have adjustable ride hieght.  And that’s probably ok but they really messed up drive shaft angles for the front motor and wheels.  So you can lower the suspension save the driveshafts and eat rear tires at a crazy pace or raise the suspension and eat front half shafts. 

There are at least four methods to reset the computers. 

On a weekly basis one or both of my computers (one runs the infotainment the other the dash display and possibly the auto pilot) crash and reset wile driving.  AC stops, no speedometer no indicators whatsoever.  Reboot takes 2-5 minutes.    No other established car manufacturer could ever get away with what Tesla has done interms of build quality. My assessment is the first 10,000 vehicles of a model or significant refresh are their quality/failure analysis testing.   Not to say they are not committed to improvements but.  Just reading people experiences  no way anyone buying products from established manufacturers would put up with this.   

Just some thoughts.  Drive on. 

Evan


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## SpaceBus (Apr 23, 2022)

I think EV's only make sense at their current astronomical prices if you do have solar, especially if you don't drive much. The car becomes both transportation and storage for your excess solar power. This gives you the ability to use the car to back feed the house when you are not producing and not needing to go anywhere. Those car battery packs, especially on an F150 or big pack Tesla can easily power a house for quite a while, and have the output to run serious appliances like the well pump. I don't think we will get a BEV until we have both a sizeable garage and solar.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 23, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> Any way the more I learn about my Tesla the more hesitant I am to recommend any Tesla as replacement for an ICE for someone who doesn’t want to think about the vehicle and just get in every day and have it drive.   Case in point the X and S do not have adjustable camber suspension.  And that’s probably fine except they have adjustable ride hieght.  And that’s probably ok but they really messed up drive shaft angles for the front motor and wheels.  So you can lower the suspension save the driveshafts and eat rear tires at a crazy pace or raise the suspension and eat front half shafts.
> 
> 
> Evan




This is an absurd oversight. Even without adjustable ride height, you still need camber adjustment, even if it's just shimming mounting points like old cars.


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## EbS-P (Apr 23, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> I think EV's only make sense at their current astronomical prices if you do have solar, especially if you don't drive much. The car becomes both transportation and storage for your excess solar power. This gives you the ability to use the car to back feed the house when you are not producing and not needing to go anywhere. Those car battery packs, especially on an F150 or big pack Tesla can easily power a house for quite a while, and have the output to run serious appliances like the well pump. I don't think we will get a BEV until we have both a sizeable garage and solar.


Fords two way system needs an 80A circuit upping the odds you need 320A service if you have a regular sized all electric house.  I’m sure it could be hacked but doing anything to void a warranty doesn’t make sense.  The tech will come around.  Tesla want to sell you a power wall. So I don’t see the two for teslas any time soon.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 23, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> Fords two way system needs an 80A circuit upping the odds you need 320A service if you have a regular sized all electric house.  I’m sure it could be hacked but doing anything to void a warranty doesn’t make sense.  The tech will come around.  Tesla want to sell you a power wall. So I don’t see the two for teslas any time soon.


Aren't most houses at least 200 amp these days? I know my 200a panel is getting pretty crowded, but a lot of the stuff on it just isn't being used, like electric baseboard heaters, etc. 

Not having an ability to power stuff with the car is a huge oversight. These larger EVs have such massive battery packs it makes sense to "kill two birds with one stone" and it becomes a mobile "power wall".


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## EbS-P (Apr 23, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> This is an absurd oversight. Even without adjustable ride height, you still need camber adjustment, even if it's just shimming mounting points like old cars.


Oh this is just the tip of the iceberg….   The solution is an aftermarket 1600$ kit with lowering links and new adjustable upper control arms that voids drive shaft warranty.  They have known about this for 5+ years and the solution is still to replace under warranty  not fix the design.  8k miles on rear tires is a common enough experience.  More common is a flat at 15-20k miles because the outside tread is fine but down the steels on the inside.


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## stoveliker (Apr 23, 2022)

Good engineering does not only focus on the hype-able parts but does the boring everyday stuff with high quality as well...


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## EbS-P (Apr 23, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> Aren't most houses at least 200 amp these days? I know my 200a panel is getting pretty crowded, but a lot of the stuff on it just isn't being used, like electric baseboard heaters, etc.
> 
> Not having an ability to power stuff with the car is a huge oversight. These larger EVs have such massive battery packs it makes sense to "kill two birds with one stone" and it becomes a mobile "power wall".


Yes most are 200 but a load calculation probably has to be done.  Electric water heater even if it’s heatpump gets 40A, oven, dryer, AC, resistive heat strips ect.  I need to read up on how to do the calc.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 23, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> Oh this is just the tip of the iceberg….   The solution is an aftermarket 1600$ kit with lowering links and new adjustable upper control arms that voids drive shaft warranty.  They have known about this for 5+ years and the solution is still to replace under warranty  not fix the design.  8k miles on rear tires is a common enough experience.  More common is a flat at 15-20k miles because the outside tread is fine but down the steels on the inside.


I assume rear tires every 8k miles (absurd on anything other than 200tw race tires) would end up costing the owner a lot more than the suspension fix. The warranty being void on the front end doesn't matter when you save all that money from not chewing up rear tires all the time.


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## stoveliker (Apr 23, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> Oh this is just the tip of the iceberg….   The solution is an aftermarket 1600$ kit with lowering links and new adjustable upper control arms that voids drive shaft warranty.  They have known about this for 5+ years and the solution is still to replace under warranty  not fix the design.  8k miles on rear tires is a common enough experience.  More common is a flat at 15-20k miles because the outside tread is fine but down the steels on the inside.



Is that common to all Tesla models or only your model?


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## EbS-P (Apr 23, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> I assume rear tires every 8k miles (absurd on anything other than 200tw race tires) would end up costing the owner a lot more than the suspension fix. The warranty being void on the front end doesn't matter when you save all that money from not chewing up rear tires all the time.


But to date no one has paid out of packet for the axel replacement and we have know idea the cost….  The average car owner probably can’t even tell you what camber is and what part of the car it changes.  I agree with what you are saying though. I want to get new axels under warranty witch I have for 36 more months so I’ll wait until I get them replaced for free before I swap to adjustable top arms.


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## EbS-P (Apr 23, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> Is that common to all Tesla models or only your model?


It affects most model Xs (or all because they are built the same). As they raised the the ride height using the S suspension when they designed the X.  I assume it has to affect some Ss but to a lesser extent due the lower ride height.  But the components are the exact same between both models.  One would think that now they are putting 1000+ HP drive trains in they would have fixed it but…. I think it’s the same front motor and they just put two motors in the rear.  First model S s are now out of factory warranty to there should be a price for the axel job somewhere


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## SpaceBus (Apr 23, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> But to date no one has paid out of packet for the axel replacement and we have know idea the cost….  The average car owner probably can’t even tell you what camber is and what part of the car it changes.  I agree with what you are saying though. I want to get new axels under warranty witch I have for 36 more months so I’ll wait until I get them replaced for free before I swap to adjustable top arms.


I assumed if you fixed the suspension geometry you wouldn't keep crushing front axles, but I might have misunderstood. I always thought the X had a more "rugged" suspension, but I guess not.


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## EbS-P (Apr 23, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> I assumed if you fixed the suspension geometry you wouldn't keep crushing front axles, but I might have misunderstood. I always thought the X had a more "rugged" suspension, but I guess not.



It helps quite a bit. The effect of the kit is that the basically lowers the suspension one or two settings.  The last update set the drive height to low and would always return to low once you hit 35 mph. This is Elon’s over the air mechanical fix.  

So if from the factory normal height has a sever of angle the kit lowers the normal setting to low or very low reducing the drive shaft angle and you then can set correct camber.   The fix is to lower the motor to reduce drive line angles but that not happening. Supposedly they have stiffened a motor clevis mount to reduce the torque effects but it sounds hit and miss.       

Things you learn when you start looking to learn things.


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## woodgeek (Apr 24, 2022)

I'm no expert, but the Model X seems to have been a bit of an expensive boondoggle design-wise, and they make it back on the MSRP.  I don't think I would 'count' an 'EV versus ICE cost' analysis that is derived from the 'X'.   The doors alone almost bankrupted the company, at a critical time.  LOL.

Apparently the 'Y' was their effort to return to 'manufacturability' over bling.  Still expensive, but higher margins and a much better design.

The adjustable suspension is just there to get more mileage, back when that was cheaper than building a bigger battery.  And Tesla saw getting a BIG mileage (range) number as an **existential issue** for the company, back just a few years ago when everyone was predicting their bankruptcy.  The camber adjustment... pfft! gotta get a big range and get the units out the door.  High-end buyers don't care about tire costs. Warranty claims?  If Tesla is growing 40% CAGR, in three years those claims are against 3X higher revenues.

I'm not saying Tesla is a house of cards (its NOT), but the design/decision-making process in a big startup like that are VERY different than in a legacy maker, for good and bad.

Tesla's have very good resale compared to ICE cars.  Gotta factor that in too.

But most folks buying EVs (even non-Tesla ones like myself) are NOT buying them to save money.

If most folks were buying ICE cars to save money, we'd all be driving Civics, --shudder--


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## EbS-P (Apr 24, 2022)

woodgeek said:


> I'm no expert, but the Model X seems to have been a bit of an expensive boondoggle design-wise, and they make it back on the MSRP.  I don't think I would 'count' an 'EV versus ICE cost' analysis that is derived from the 'X'.   The doors alone almost bankrupted the company, at a critical time.  LOL.
> 
> Apparently the 'Y' was their effort to return to 'manufacturability' over bling.  Still expensive, but higher margins and a much better design.
> 
> ...


Probably a Honda Fit.  That’s civic is a little too big


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## stoveliker (Apr 24, 2022)

Mazda 2...


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## EbS-P (Apr 24, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> Mazda 2...


Or the 5 if you have a big family. I’d love to have a Mazda 5 BEV BK.  Three rows of seats big doors…. I’m sure a usable 7-8 seat BEV is coming someday.  (I don’t consider the Model Ys 3rd row usable. Sure a kid could sit back there but not with a car seat in the second row.)  Even if it is the VW or the Tesla robo taxis.


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## stoveliker (Apr 24, 2022)

That (Mazda 5) was the other car we had (just sold). Sliding doors but NY says it's a station wagon rather than a minivan, so registration is less.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 24, 2022)

I love small cars like Mazda 2's, Honda Fits, Miatas, etc. My avatar is our first winter here and my wife's Fiat 500 Abarth. Back in NC I used to race Miatas and frequently co-drove with my friend in his Fiesta ST. Small cars don't have to be boring. The Civic is actually a pretty fun small car, especially in the sport, SI, and of course Type R trims. Toyota even brought back fun Corollas, but apparently only for like tens of people. I've also had a Mustang Mach 1 and SRT8 Challenger, so I can appreciate big cars too. I wish Fiat would bring the new 500 EV, it looks great! However I would much rather have something like a Fiat Panda, which doesn't exist for this market. The closest thing we got was the Jeep Renegade, and they killed off the only good engine/trans option and there are no EV variants planned, that I know of.


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## stoveliker (Apr 24, 2022)

Lol, I've driven (not owned) a Fiat Panda. Looks like a Jeep dinky toy and drives like one too.

The Mazda 2 I have is a stick shift and was sold to me when the ad campaign was "Zoom zoom". And it can pull away pretty quickly because there is almost no mass...

But as noted before I drive like an old fart.  Saves me money.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 24, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> Lol, I've driven (not owned) a Fiat Panda. Looks like a Jeep dinky toy and drives like one too.
> 
> The Mazda 2 I have is a stick shift and was sold to me when the ad campaign was "Zoom zoom". And it can pull away pretty quickly because there is almost no mass...
> 
> But as noted before I drive like an old fart.  Saves me money.



I used to live in Europe while my family was stationed there. I like Pandas, they do well on really rough poorly maintained roads, which is what I have to deal with here. Back in NC I had a sporty bike, a Miata, and a Mach 1 Mustang, but the roads were in great shape. 

Still there is only one "rugged" EV on the market, and I don't think it's even for sale yet. The Subaru Solterra.


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## woodgeek (Apr 24, 2022)

Um, we bought a Mazda5 in 2013, a year before the LEAF.  The ex just sold it 2 months ago.


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## begreen (Apr 24, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> Still there is only one "rugged" EV on the market, and I don't think it's even for sale yet. The Subaru Solterra.


The Rivian R1T and Ford F150 Lightning are showing good off-road rugged performance. Then there is the Jeep 4XE.


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## ABMax24 (Apr 24, 2022)

The new Toyota Tundra hybrid looks pretty impressive, gives the same fuel economy numbers as the Tacoma. Not a pure EV, but seems more affordable than the F150 lightning.

I'd like to see a diesel electric hybrid in a 1 ton. That would be something I would buy.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 25, 2022)

begreen said:


> The Rivian R1T and Ford F150 Lightning are showing good off-road rugged performance. Then there is the Jeep 4XE.


I already have a truck, and only drive it when I need to, so we will be looking for a compact SUV/Crossover/Hatchback when is time for the next car. This is why I mentioned a hypothetical Panda EV, it would suit our needs perfectly.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 25, 2022)

ABMax24 said:


> The new Toyota Tundra hybrid looks pretty impressive, gives the same fuel economy numbers as the Tacoma. Not a pure EV, but seems more affordable than the F150 lightning.
> 
> I'd like to see a diesel electric hybrid in a 1 ton. That would be something I would buy.


Getting a Tundra up to Tacoma fuel economy isn't saying much, it was never an efficient vehicle. It will take a long time until hybrids or EV's can compete with diesel.


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## stoveliker (Apr 25, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> I already have a truck, and only drive it when I need to, so we will be looking for a compact SUV/Crossover/Hatchback when is time for the next car. This is why I mentioned a hypothetical Panda EV, it would suit our needs perfectly.


So, I googled the current Panda because "compact" did not match what I was talking about - miniature was a better word for it: my Jeep remark was related to the Panda from the 80s:


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## SpaceBus (Apr 25, 2022)

This came out in 2015, so getting to be a bit dated, but exactly what I'm looking for in our next car.


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## peakbagger (Apr 25, 2022)

You just need a LJ 70  https://www.guyswithrides.com/2019/08/09/1990-toyota-land-cruiser-ii-lj-70/

They are still made in the middle east. The US government buy them for special ops and are still the preferred military vehicle for many parts of the world because they are so tough    and ultimately

Note the HILux pickup and the LJ share the same chassis frame and running gear 

With modern port injected diesel they get good gas milage and there are firms that convert them to electric for mining https://www.tembo4x4-elv.com/


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## EbS-P (Apr 25, 2022)

peakbagger said:


> You just need a LJ 70  https://www.guyswithrides.com/2019/08/09/1990-toyota-land-cruiser-ii-lj-70/
> 
> They are still made in the middle east. The US government buy them for special ops and are still the preferred military vehicle for many parts of the world because they are so tough    and ultimately
> 
> ...



The Panda references on top gear are great too..


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## SpaceBus (Apr 25, 2022)

peakbagger said:


> You just need a LJ 70  https://www.guyswithrides.com/2019/08/09/1990-toyota-land-cruiser-ii-lj-70/
> 
> They are still made in the middle east. The US government buy them for special ops and are still the preferred military vehicle for many parts of the world because they are so tough    and ultimately
> 
> ...




I would prefer something a bit less agricultural for our daily driver   I remember watching the TG bit on the Hilux when it debuted, my family was stationed in the UK for three years when I was a teenager. 

Also familiar with our military using them for special operations, I drove them in Afghanistan. We had both single cab Hiluxes and LJ70's. We also had a few Pradas that were pretty tough, and I think it was based on the 80's or 90's Land Cruisers with inline six engines and automatic transmissions, it was more of a camp truck and didn't leave "the wire". We had some late model Land Cruisers that had some serious armor and glass, and that's what left the wire if we weren't using GMV's or MATV's. Most SF guys I worked with preferred rolling in light weight GMV's, which is like a Humvee with no doors or top, a machine gun pintle mount for each seat, a turret, and two seats in the "cargo area" with machine gun mounts. In total it can carry five 240/249 machine guns and/or a M2, M19 or Minigun. Usually they rolled with three kitted GMV's and one MATV, which is a "lightweight" MRAP specially kitted out for special operations. I think they just brought it for the CROWS, which is a gun turret on the top of the vehicle that has cameras and is controlled from the inside. If teams were leaving the wire with "civilian" type trucks, it was usually because they were in an urban environment, didn't want to stand out too much, and also wanted more armor than guns.


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## EbS-P (Apr 25, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> Getting a Tundra up to Tacoma fuel economy isn't saying much, it was never an efficient vehicle. It will take a long time until hybrids or EV's can compete with diesel.


I guess it depends on how you define compete.  From a range prospective I would maybe agree.   From a total build cost maybe but Toyotas hybrid drive is really well thought out.     In general his channel did a great job explaining their systems.  

I think it only matters if you need extended 100+ Mile range.  The BEV semis will be the end of big diesels for fleets.   Once you know your routes I just don’t see how they complete.  Add teslas ADAS to the mix it will alter the industry.  

I get Toyotas V8 replacement hybrid.  But I’d rather not have a turbo V6 but I don’t see the V8 staying in vehicle I would buy now that Nissan stopped their full size van.  When it comes to towing the hybrid system could shine.  How often do you need max power and for how long?  30 seconds max? Full electric power at any RPM is nice and even a trip from 0-80 won’t drain the battery.  What transmission is going in the Tundra/Sequoia hybrid?


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## begreen (Apr 25, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> I already have a truck, and only drive it when I need to, so we will be looking for a compact SUV/Crossover/Hatchback when is time for the next car. This is why I mentioned a hypothetical Panda EV, it would suit our needs perfectly.


Does the wife know this is the plan for the family sedan? 
There are several that offer dual-motor, AWD. Subaru is a latecomer. The Ford Mach-e, VW ID.4, Polestar2, Tesla Model Y, Volvo X40 recharge, Hyundai Kona EV, Jeep 4xe, and others from Jaguar, Audi, Mercedes, etc., and the Rivian R1S. For a crossover, the new Kia EV6 AWD looks interesting. In addition to being fully-featured, it can provide 1.9kW power to the home in the case of an outage. Next year GM will have an Equinox EV and Blazer too.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 25, 2022)

begreen said:


> Does the wife know this is the plan for the family sedan?
> There are several that offer dual-motor, AWD. Subaru is a latecomer. The Ford Mach-e, VW ID.4, Polestar2, Tesla Model Y, Volvo X40 recharge, Hyundai Kona EV, Jeep 4xe, and others from Jaguar, Audi, Mercedes, etc., and the Rivian R1S. For a crossover, the new Kia EV6 AWD looks interesting. In addition to being fully-featured, it can provide 1.9kW power to the home in the case of an outage. Next year GM will have an Equinox EV and Blazer too.


Heh, her car is the 500 Abarth, she wants something a bit larger and better on our broken roads. Most of those vehicles you mentioned are quite expensive and not really rugged. The Jeep 4XE looks appealing, but Wranglers are quite agricultural vehicles even in 2022. Hopefully the future of EVs will offer something actually rugged, but nobody really offers anything like that. That's why I posted that Fiat Panda, it was designed for third world countries with dirt roads. With the exception of the Wrangler and maybe the Subaru all of those vehicles are just sedans/hatchbacks with large wheels and tall bodies. We might as well just keep on driving the Fiat Abarth. The Kona does look nice, but I doubt it would do well with our local logging roads with blacktop.


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## stoveliker (Apr 25, 2022)

I'm surprised. The Fiat Panda has been (40 years) and still is designed for city driving - in Europe. Small, maneuverable and fairly cheap. They still market it as a city car.

So I'm curious what your source is for this being meant for third world countries ?

Not saying you're wrong, just that it is inconsistent with what I've learned - but what I've learned may be incomplete (see confirmation bias).


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## begreen (Apr 25, 2022)

We live in a rural area with dirt roads, bumpy blacktop, and a long dirt driveway. Our Volt has done fine with them. Unless one is doing regular off-roading where exceptionally high ground clearance is necessary, the ruggedness factor may be over-rated. Most of these cars will certainly be as rugged or more so than the Fiat. 
Oh, I forgot the Toyota Rav4 EV.


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## EbS-P (Apr 25, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> I'm surprised. The Fiat Panda has been (40 years) and still is designed for city driving - in Europe. Small, maneuverable and fairly cheap. They still market it as a city car.
> 
> So I'm curious what your source is for this being meant for third world countries ?
> 
> Not saying you're wrong, just that it is inconsistent with what I've learned - but what I've learned may be incomplete (see confirmation bias).


grand tour season 3 episode 2. Tha Panda in all its glory 

Hey I’m watching The Grand Tour - Season 3. Check it out now on Prime Video!
https://watch.amazon.com/detail?gti...d434&territory=US&ref_=share_ios_season&r=web


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## EbS-P (Apr 25, 2022)

begreen said:


> We live in a rural area with dirt roads, bumpy blacktop, and a long dirt driveway. Our Volt has done fine with them. Unless one is doing regular off-roading where exceptionally high ground clearance is necessary, the ruggedness factor may be over-rated. Most of these cars will certainly be as rugged or more so than the Fiat.
> Oh, I forgot the Toyota Rav4 EV.


Roads up north are different.  Between the heavy trucks, frost heaves,  and mud season,  and salt the roads just abuse vehicles to a degree I never saw when we lived on the farm are were always driving on rural dirt roads.  

If it were me I’d just keep an older AWD ICE and save the BEV for fair weather and nicer roads.   What you save on west and tear on a new car is maybe worth whatever tax and registration is.  Here’s a link explain if it’s better to keep your ICE


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## SpaceBus (Apr 25, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> I'm surprised. The Fiat Panda has been (40 years) and still is designed for city driving - in Europe. Small, maneuverable and fairly cheap. They still market it as a city car.
> 
> So I'm curious what your source is for this being meant for third world countries ?
> 
> Not saying you're wrong, just that it is inconsistent with what I've learned - but what I've learned may be incomplete (see confirmation bias).


The OG two wheel drive Panda was more of a city car, but remember European city roads are not smoot. Most are a patchwork of different materials, often including cobblestones. I should have specified Panda 4x4, which since it's inception was more like a Lada Niva than a city car. The Lada Niva is a bit more robust still and would be the perfect car for where we live on the edge of civilization, but that's even less likely to come here. Most Fiats have been historically sold in developing nations in Eastern Europe, where they were made under license for different brands. They were also popular in South America along with VW who sold more rugged designs there as well.

This place bangs up my diesel dually, a Volt would be just as susceptible to damage as our Fiat, which has had a lot of wheel bearing and suspension repair since moving here. Even after changing over to 15" wheels from the factory 17's. There's a fist sized dent on the barrels of one of the 17's. Even trying to be careful and dodge the potholes there's always one that sounds very expensive every time I drive. We live on a "three digit" paved secondary road that connects Cutler to Route 1 and it was paved in 2018. This winter really put a hurting on it and there are many 8+" deep pot holes, 8" tall bumps, ripples, and generally just beat to crap. Except for weekends there are always big rigs and dump trucks pulling equipment. This road is plowed by my previous employer and done with a dump truck, not very kind to the surface.


We couldn't even get a "nice weather car" for smooth roads, none of them are smooth North of Bangor/Ellsworth


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## stoveliker (Apr 25, 2022)

City Car: small car, great experiences | Fiat
					

The best car to explore the city in style and comfort. Read now our list of good reasons why you should choose a city car.




					www.fiat.com
				




Featuring the 500 and the Panda.

Me thinks ole Jeremy (ab-)used the car for what it was not meant to do.


Edit: yes, 4 wheel is different.

Edit: Fiat sold a boat load in Western Europe too, not only Eastern (developing). 

But, I do see a 4x4 not being useful in a city (just like a pick-up truck in NYC...)


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## SpaceBus (Apr 25, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> City Car: small car, great experiences | Fiat
> 
> 
> The best car to explore the city in style and comfort. Read now our list of good reasons why you should choose a city car.
> ...


Jeremy is not the only person to drive a Panda off road. You can google Panda 4x4 and rough roads and you will find plenty of articles and stories.


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## begreen (Apr 26, 2022)

Tesla to Panda, this thread has jumped the rails. To get it back on track, note that Teslas are showing up on the rally circuits and winning. Aftermarket off-road packages are popular for the 3 and Y. Evidently it's a tough combo.


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## stoveliker (Apr 26, 2022)

Well, to be fair, the thread is about BEV...


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## EbS-P (Apr 26, 2022)

I think an all electric  rally league would be awesome


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## begreen (Apr 26, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> I think an all electric  rally league would be awesome


It's happening


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## stoveliker (Apr 26, 2022)

That (rally) might be the best marketing to appeal to the "non-Tesla" crowd...


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## begreen (Apr 26, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> That (rally) might be the best marketing to appeal to the "non-Tesla" crowd...


Yes, fast but quieter and no exhaust, though still plenty of dust. 




__





						EVER Egypt
					






					www.electricvehiclerally.org


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## SpaceBus (Apr 26, 2022)

begreen said:


> Tesla to Panda, this thread has jumped the rails. To get it back on track, note that Teslas are showing up on the rally circuits and winning. Aftermarket off-road packages are popular for the 3 and Y. Evidently it's a tough combo.


I could get on board with that.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 26, 2022)

begreen said:


> It's happening



I would buy a production Kona BEV if it came with that suspension. I don't necessarily need AWD, especially with a locking or limited slip differential, but the long travel suspension is what I'm looking for.


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## EbS-P (Apr 26, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> I could get on board with that.


Out of warranty model 3 dual motor under 100k miles.  Throw 5k of suspension parts on it( just guessing at the $$ amount). And you could adjust the camber   I do think third party batteries or battery service will be available to most before too long.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 26, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> Out of warranty model 3 dual motor under 100k miles.  Throw 5k of suspension parts on it( just guessing at the $$ amount). And you could adjust the camber   I do think third party batteries or battery service will be available to most before too long.



The Model Y is more appealing, I'm a wagon/hatch person and so is my wife. Looks like there's an ATB diff for Tesla drivetrains already. Model 3/Y dual motor long range battery with long travel suspension and good diffs would make for an unstoppable and comfortable year round driver. We haven't been further away from home than Bangor, 95-115 miles depending on which way we go, since November 2018 when we were on the way to our newly bought house. A 300+ mile range is plenty for us.


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## EbS-P (Apr 26, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> The Model Y is more appealing, I'm a wagon/hatch person and so is my wife. Looks like there's an ATB diff for Tesla drivetrains already. Model 3/Y dual motor long range battery with long travel suspension and good diffs would make for an unstoppable and comfortable year round driver. We haven't been further away from home than Bangor, 95-115 miles depending on which way we go, since November 2018 when we were on the way to our newly bought house. A 300+ mile range is plenty for us.


I don’t know what’s around the the super charger in Brewer but if the my Battery is below 40% I can charge at 100 kw.  a(that’s like 300 miles an hour charge rate for me) And that’s on a 150 kw charger on old battery tech.

My point is long range may be a selling point but it really shouldn’t be as big of a factor in the buying decision.  10-15 minutes on the charger and you would have enough range to get back home.

If batteries start limiting production we will see Tesla sell 50-60 kWh batteries in the M3 just to keep the production lines moving. 

I’d totally take beefed up MY but I’d make sure it gets some extra battery protection under there.

What you don’t trust traction control???


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## SpaceBus (Apr 26, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> I don’t know what’s around the the super charger in Brewer but if the my Battery is below 40% I can charge at 100 kw.  a(that’s like 300 miles an hour charge rate for me) And that’s on a 150 kw charger on old battery tech.
> 
> My point is long range may be a selling point but it really shouldn’t be as big of a factor in the buying decision.  10-15 minutes on the charger and you would have enough range to get back home.
> 
> ...


I think traction control is great, especially on wet pavement. That's about the only situation I really like having it. Stability control and traction control not only ruin the fun, but they can really work against you driving in the snow. At least it does on most cars I've driven in the snow.


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## EbS-P (Apr 26, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> I think traction control is great, especially on wet pavement. That's about the only situation I really like having it. Stability control and traction control not only ruin the fun, but they can really work against you driving in the snow. At least it does on most cars I've driven in the snow.


I want to see a Tesla with manual locking hubs and chains!


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## peakbagger (Apr 27, 2022)

I have been waiting for integrated electric hub drives to make it to the market where the electric motor generator brake is all integrated into a wheel assembly. No need for diffs and its makes the body design far simpler. Then its just a matter of software for traction control


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## SpaceBus (Apr 27, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> I want to see a Tesla with manual locking hubs and chains!


I'm not so old that I only like manual hubs! Auto hubs are fine, but I'll still be keeping chains in the trunk 😂🤣 Peakbagger is right, hub motors need to happen. I get that they will significantly increase unsprung weight, but I don't think it will be so bad.


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## EbS-P (Apr 27, 2022)

peakbagger said:


> I have been waiting for integrated electric hub drives to make it to the market where the electric motor generator brake is all integrated into a wheel assembly. No need for diffs and its makes the body design far simpler. Then its just a matter of software for traction control


They are here just not super popular yet.


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## EbS-P (Apr 28, 2022)

First full moth electric bill came.  No heatpump or AC on this bill.  I compared to my lowest usage bill in the last 12 months.  Probably the best quantitative  data I can get.  Looks like my 600 miles a month increased my usage by 11.2 kWh a day.  So 330kwh/600 miles  gives me. 550 whr /per mile.  Or  60$ per 1k miles at 0.11$ per kwh.  Right in line with my estimate. I didn’t take into account my free supercharging that may reduce my mileage  by 30%, but not change my cost.   Since I don’t pay I really don’t have a way to track my supercharging other than to write it down. Which in haven’t.  I’ll track my mileage better this cycle. But note the is not the epa rated mileage of 330whr/mile. 

So compared to my van at 16 mpg and gas at 3.90$ and. 100$ Oil change every 5000 miles.  I am saving 200$ per 1000. Enough to cover registration an insurance.  So I probably break even.    It’s good to have data.  I’ve satisfied my curiosity my estimates were close enough. 

Now I just need to figure out how long my front axels will last and if I should add the adjustable suspension parts.  Probably will. Axels are worn and vibrate under load at normal height. Seems  silly to get less than 25k out of CV joints.  But hey maybe some day they will fix it on new models.  Just read the selling used Teslas from Tesla at more than the original sale price.  Such is the market. https://insideevs.com/news/582370/used-tesla-prices-surge/amp/


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## woodgeek (Apr 28, 2022)

Doesn't the car track mi/kWh or Wh/mi??  My 7 year old Volt does.

Also, given the seasonal variation in this number, you would need a year of data.

I honestly think that the **rated** average Wh/mi is probably more accurate than you monthly bill estimate method.


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## EbS-P (Apr 28, 2022)

woodgeek said:


> Doesn't the car track mi/kWh or Wh/mi??  My 7 year old Volt does.
> 
> Also, given the seasonal variation in this number, you would need a year of data.
> 
> I honestly think that the **rated** average Wh/mi is probably more accurate than you monthly bill estimate method.


It does but vampire drain is real. 1-3 kWh a day. There is no way my rates 350 whr /mile is real.  Range (battery percent) drop way faster than miles driven or kWh used.   Charging efficiency should matter. 

 I don’t know how it accounts for power consumption with the car off and the AC and heat on.   I could pay for an app that has access to all the data.  I don’t really care that much.  1000 kWh  for an all electric house with a family of 7. Basically working from home. With a BEV.   I’m ok with that.   

If I cared I’d clamp on one the electrical use monitors to the circuit.  Remember the power wall is a WiFi hub that’s always on I’d like to know what it draws 24/7.  

My whole point is that the Tesla calculation Whr /mile do not represent actual consumption measures by the meter.


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## woodgeek (Apr 28, 2022)

With all due respect, you're a newb.  The sticker rated usage is consistent with user reports overall, and they are not all crazy hypermilers.  If you are not getting that, its worth figuring out why.  The biggies would be tire selection,  tire pressure, and weather.  Charging eff should be >90% on 240V.

FYI I am no Tesla expert, but every EV I have ever seen has a non-linear mapping of apparent state of charge and actual state of charge.  Like when gas-gauges say 'E' and there is still gas in the tank.   They want you to have some margin if you turn around at 50% energy remaining, etc.  Super annoying.

I guess I am saying it is very hard to actually estimate this without direct measurements.  I would trust the car on its Wh/mi (which includes accessories).  I too tried to estimate vampire drain in my LEAF back in the day (looking at SoC after parking it for a week).  I'd trust the Tesla fora on vampire loads.  

I would take the cars stated: Wh/mi*miles*1.1 (for charging) + nominal vampire load*days


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## peakbagger (Apr 29, 2022)

My plug in hybrid Toyota battery mapping is right on as there is always a tank of gas backing it up. It does look at prior usage cycles and adjusts the watts/mile readout and range estimate. If I do a couple of extended highway runs and drain down the battery the range drops as the  efficiency is lower at highway speeds. If I do a lot of 40 MPH with minimal stops driving the range goes up. Cold weather also drops the range due to cab heat which is primarily heat pump technology. Folks trying to boost electric range adopt some unusual techniques like switching to hybrid mode (a mix of gas and battery)  when going up hills or running at highway speeds, then switching back to electric around town. On a long trip that exceeds the battery range (40 to 45 miles) I usually start out in hybrid and then use the electric mode when I am near the destination where I am driving a lower speeds. 

On the other hand, the mapping of the gas tank is decidedly biased. It is set up to give an initial range and then bias the range to convince the owner to fill up the tank well before its anywhere near empty. There are also low gas warnings based on that biased range. Various estimates are that is at least 2 gallons in the tank at the reported empty point. There is typically a technical reason for keeping the tank full as drawing it down carries sediment into the fuel filters and most fuel injection systems recirculate most of the fuel back to the tank to keep the fuel rail cool.  The one place where Toyota appears to use the full tank volume is advertising the expected fuel range, they claim a combined 600 miles and I suspect that they use every drop left in the tank to come up with that number.  The estimated combined range when the battery is fully charged and the fuel tank is full usually adds up to somewhere in the range of 550.


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## woodgeek (Apr 29, 2022)

Fair, the two BEVs I had had non-linear mappings of SoC on the dash, but my plug-in seems pretty linear.  Hard for me to be sure, bc most of the round-trips I do, where I could gauge SoC change outbound and return ALSO have a significant topographical change.  Work is 500' lower elevation than Home, and the first leg is like 40% of trip energy, while the return is 60%.

Also: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/model-x-average-wh-mile-tracker.68940/


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## EbS-P (May 3, 2022)

First trip to the gas station today in 3 months.  Car didn’t NEED it but the chainsaw deserved fresh gas so I filled it up.  ( gas light was on but the 5 gallons of old gas would have got me by another 2 months).


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## EbS-P (May 6, 2022)

Unintended consequence of a stupid fast BEV…

My posterior accelerometer has been completely recalibrated to values that it has never before experienced.  I am renaming the the right hand pedal in my Odessey as the “forward” pedal.  My re-scaled accelerometer doesn’t detect much if any acceleration even with excessive forward pedal application


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## stoveliker (May 6, 2022)

or the Odessey seats are softer... ;p


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## SpaceBus (May 6, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> Unintended consequence of a stupid fast BEV…
> 
> My posterior accelerometer has been completely recalibrated to values that it has never before experienced.  I am renaming the the right hand pedal in my Odessey as the “forward” pedal.  My re-scaled accelerometer doesn’t detect much if any acceleration even with excessive forward pedal application


This also happens after you ride bikes for a while. I haven't been on anything fast since 2018, so I'm sure even the current crop of top engine choice sedans would feel like race cars. Everything is fast these days, but your family hauler is certainly another level of fast.


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## EbS-P (May 28, 2022)

2200 mile update…..

Second verse is a lot like the first.   It’s warmer out. AC is less power hungry than heat.   No drama other drama. Decided to get a 3rd party warranty.  It’s worked out well for me on my van.  The fact that they tent to eat drive shafts made my decision easier.  

Total ICE miles we have driven since February 1st is less than 300.  I really want to try FSD.   It’s not available yet. I don’t have the cameras required nor do I have the correct computers.  Supposedly those upgrades will be installed for free sometime In the future when parts are available …..  I won’t hold my breath.   

I started to look at rate time billing.  Peak power is 0.07, off peak is 0.06 and there is a $5.45 per Kw peak demand charge based on your highest 15 minute average.  Current standard price is 0.106.  I’m guessing that cooking during the summer would put my peak demand about 3 -5 kw.    So I don’t think I would save much. My math says  half my bill could be off peak if I really tried HARD. So I could save 35% call it 35$ But add another 20 for peak demand charge. It’s less than 20$ difference.  I’ll find another way to save that because I’m pretty sure if my resistive strips kicked on during peak times for a defrost cycle I’d probably not even break even.  

If they offer rate time billing for my car charger only I could see that.


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## Isaac Carlson (Jun 2, 2022)

Cars were built cheap before ev's, what makes you think they will get better?  An ev would be nice if it didn't cost an arm and a leg and if you actually owned all of it, not just the tires.  I never know how many miles I will put on in a day and don't have time to charge for an hour or replace expensive batteries.  There is nothing green about any of this, it's just money.


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## begreen (Jun 2, 2022)

Some cars were built cheaply and some cars were built well, the same story 50 yrs ago as it is today. There is nothing green about building cars that end up in the wrecking yard in 10 yrs. There is nothing green about spewing tons of carbon into the atmosphere, it's just habit and what we've become accustomed to. That is changing, it has to.   If one sleeps regularly once a day, one has the time to charge a vehicle every night.


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## EbS-P (Jun 3, 2022)

Isaac Carlson said:


> Cars were built cheap before ev's, what makes you think they will get better?  An ev would be nice if it didn't cost an arm and a leg and if you actually owned all of it, not just the tires.  I never know how many miles I will put on in a day and don't have time to charge for an hour or replace expensive batteries.  There is nothing green about any of this, it's just money.


Prices will come/are coming  down.  This  technology that is 5+ years or on the market and utilizes existing manufacturing and assembly infrastructure.   The average auto is not on the road more than 10 years I believe. They are built and engineered to a price point in general.   

For Tesla to complete and invest in new infrastructure they had to complete in a high margin market so luxury market made sense.  I don’t think they have plans to enter the 20-30k price point anytime soon.  Maybe there could be a model 3 variant utilizing old tech on and inker production line but that really doesn’t fit their on the fly update philosophy.  

Some people will spend more money to be greener.  Studies have been done electric vehicles have a smaller carbon footprint for the the product lifecycle than ICE.  

We just took a 420 mile road trip, first one as a family of 7 and I can say with out hesitation we will not be an all EV family anytime soon.  My next vehicle purchase will be a 1 ton van.  Unless the ford transit electric gets AWD and an RV towing range of 250 miles.  I don’t see much volume for those specs.


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## SpaceBus (Jun 3, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> Prices will come/are coming  down.  This  technology that is 5+ years or on the market and utilizes existing manufacturing and assembly infrastructure.   The average auto is not on the road more than 10 years I believe. They are built and engineered to a price point in general.
> 
> For Tesla to complete and invest in new infrastructure they had to complete in a high margin market so luxury market made sense.  I don’t think they have plans to enter the 20-30k price point anytime soon.  Maybe there could be a model 3 variant utilizing old tech on and inker production line but that really doesn’t fit their on the fly update philosophy.
> 
> ...


I wonder how a "re-powered" vehicle compares on carbon emissions. I can't imagine it's more friendly to buy a new EV rather than convert an old ICE car.


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## EbS-P (Jun 4, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> I wonder how a "re-powered" vehicle compares on carbon emissions. I can't imagine it's more friendly to buy a new EV rather than convert an old ICE car.


That option is probably accessible to less than 1%.  The cost replace the drivetrain could be put towards a new EV with a warranty and probably better efficiency.
 I still like the idea of dropping new battery tech in a BEV.  To me that’s going to be this decades version of re-powering.   Add a small off grid solar charger with 10-20 kWh storage would reduce carbon footprint even further.


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## woodgeek (Jun 4, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> I wonder how a "re-powered" vehicle compares on carbon emissions. I can't imagine it's more friendly to buy a new EV rather than convert an old ICE car.


Not exactly what you said... but those ICE cars will find use.

I suspect that many multi-car families will hold onto their ICE cars for a long time, for particular applications, but not putting a lot of miles on them.  IOW, on a larger scale, those ICE vehicles will be useful at the margins to fill in the things BEVs don't do well (towing, large cargo, off road).

If the EV transition ends up hurting the resale of used ICE vehicles (esp if good BEVs get cheap), you will see a lot of people holding onto them like museum pieces... but their emissions will be low.


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## EbS-P (Jun 4, 2022)

woodgeek said:


> Not exactly what you said... but those ICE cars will find use.
> 
> I suspect that many multi-car families will hold onto their ICE cars for a long time, for particular applications, but not putting a lot of miles on them.  IOW, on a larger scale, those ICE vehicles will be useful at the margins to fill in the things BEVs don't do well (towing, large cargo, off road).
> 
> If the EV transition ends up hurting the resale of used ICE vehicles (esp if good BEVs get cheap), you will see a lot of people holding onto them like museum pieces... but their emissions will be low.


A local company was shipping them to Ukraine before the war.  I can see developing and recovering economies being a market for ICE cars. Current fuel costs probably won’t make it as profitable.  But as we get out the current supply chain constraints we will see a lot of new ICE vehicles produced.  It will be a race for a while to make ICE or BEVs.


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## begreen (Jun 4, 2022)

woodgeek said:


> I suspect that many multi-car families will hold onto their ICE cars for a long time, for particular applications, but not putting a lot of miles on them. IOW, on a larger scale, those ICE vehicles will be useful at the margins to fill in the things BEVs don't do well (towing, large cargo, off road).


That is where we have been for the past 9 yrs. Our current ICE vehicle now is a 2018 Dodge Grand Caravan that can haul stuff, be a camper, or carry 7 passengers. It gets less than 3000 miles put on it a year.


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## peakbagger (Jun 5, 2022)

ICE vehicles will remain in the mix but it you look at the vast majority of fossil fuel use its local driving and single person commuting. I work at various manufacturing companies on occasion and when cruising the parking lots looking for a parking space, I see a lot of expensive pickup trucks that are obviously being used for commuting. In my case with my current and final two projects I am driving 410 miles round trip to one site and 320 miles round trip to the other one so an EV is not practical, but my guess is the vast majority of those in the parking lot are within a BEV range with a block of time overnight to recharge. Odds are a bunch of the workers in these lots are two (or three) vehicle families. 

Car companies long ago figured out that car and truck sales are all image. The vast majority of 4WD vehicles sold are rarely if ever put in 4WD or even driven off road. Few vehicles ever drive over 85 MPH yet some will run in excess of 140 MPH.  No one needs a Dodge Hellcat, yet folks are buying them.  BEVs are just not yet cool and currently not as profitable so the car companies still pump a bunch of money trying to sell conventional ICE vehicles. My guess is a lot of the big gas hog ICE vehicles are going to start flooding the repo market soon as the low money down seven year liar loans that were handed out to anyone who can breathe will start getting called in when the owners discover they can not afford the gas. 

I live in a vacation destination (White Mountains of NH) and despite very nice weather the last few weekends, the amount of weekend traffic in parking lots is definitely down compared to prior years the big weekends are still to come but to date its noticeable. The hospitality firms are not yet complaining as they are having a tough time staffing but it is an indication that despite official PR that vacationers are not changing their plans, some are.  Even the ATV crowds are thinning out.


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## EbS-P (Aug 4, 2022)

1Mwh update….   I passed the 1000kwh usage mark today.  5 months, 200kwh per month.
Average 354 wh/mile. 2900 miles All city driving.  The acceleration never gets old. Falcon doors cool factor is waning, and I’ve only closed them on myself once this week.  Stupid car shaped key fob where the buttons are the whole fob.   

Saving has paid for the wall charger.  

V11 installed last week now I can complain like all the other Tesla owners.  Still waiting for Full Self Driving…..


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## ABMax24 (Aug 4, 2022)

When a person starts looking at energy consumption in kwh per month for commuting, its not that bad. I'd probably average the same as you, 10,000km per year. Basically I could commute to work using less electricity than the measly 3,000kwh my house uses per year. I easily have enough roof space to install more solar panels to cover my commute, I probably have enough roof area to cover both mine and my wife's commute.


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## Isaac Carlson (Aug 5, 2022)

Kilowatt hours on your end might look good, but when you count the energy to mine, transport, process/refine, manufacture, and sell the panels/chargers/batteries/cars, and then creating the energy to run the cars and the problem of what to do with old panels, where does it put you?  Also, repairing a tesla is not always an option or allowed.  I would wager a fair amount that the energy involved in the above chain is more than the gasoline I burn in my 20 and 30 year old vehicles.  I'n not hating on tesla owners, just pointing out that what appears and is marketed as green is not so green.  I am perfectly happy driving an older vehicle that is paid for many times over and that I can maintain and repair myself.  Tesla still can't hold a candle to gas powered freight haulers of any kind, be it semi trucks, pickup trucks, or vehicles pulling trailers.  The energy density just is not there.  I can load my truck to 10-12k lbs and drive all day.  A tesla will be dead in less than an hour, and the battery will be cooked.


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## woodgeek (Aug 5, 2022)

Isaac Carlson said:


> Kilowatt hours on your end might look good, but when you count the energy to mine, transport, process/refine, manufacture, and sell the panels/chargers/batteries/cars, and then creating the energy to run the cars and the problem of what to do with old panels, where does it put you?  Also, repairing a tesla is not always an option or allowed.  I would wager a fair amount that the energy involved in the above chain is more than the gasoline I burn in my 20 and 30 year old vehicles.  I'n not hating on tesla owners, just pointing out that what appears and is marketed as green is not so green.  I am perfectly happy driving an older vehicle that is paid for many times over and that I can maintain and repair myself.  Tesla still can't hold a candle to gas powered freight haulers of any kind, be it semi trucks, pickup trucks, or vehicles pulling trailers.  The energy density just is not there.  I can load my truck to 10-12k lbs and drive all day.  A tesla will be dead in less than an hour, and the battery will be cooked.



PV panels need to operate for about 1.5 years to make more energy than required to make and install them.

EVs on grid average US power need 3-4 years of use to have lower total emissions than an ICE car.

PV panels last 20-30 years.  EVs (and their batteries) are currently expected to last 15+ years.

Their unusual minerals (Si, Li, Co, Ni) are highly recyclable for considerable energy savings, just like the steel, aluminum, copper and lead in current cars.

A world where we all drove EVs powered by solar on our roofs would have <1/3rd of the emissions on average of the current system.  With recycling that would drop a bit more.


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## DBoon (Aug 18, 2022)

Isaac Carlson said:


> Kilowatt hours on your end might look good, but when you count the energy to mine, transport, process/refine, manufacture, and sell the panels/chargers/batteries/cars, and then creating the energy to run the cars and the problem of what to do with old panels, where does it put you?


Of course, this completely ignores that there are energy costs to extract oil, refine it, and transport it by pipeline and truck to the place where I can put it in my car or truck, where it is then burned at 25% efficiency, give or take.


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## woodgeek (Aug 18, 2022)

DBoon said:


> Of course, this completely ignores that there are energy costs to extract oil, refine it, and transport it by pipeline and truck to the place where I can put it in my car or truck, where it is then burned at 25% efficiency, give or take.


That overhead is generally considered to be about 25%, averaged over supplies.


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## boomfire (Aug 18, 2022)

Yesterday, I put 3/4 Tank of gas in one of my cars
50$ for a total estimated 217 Miles

I charged my EV to 80%
8$ for an estimated 250 Miles

Feels nice.


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## EbS-P (Aug 27, 2022)

Tesla updated their app to include charging stats.  Looking like 250 kWh a month seem to be our summer usage.  Kids go back to school so it will go up.  Probably by 100 kWh.  All this on #12 wire. Limited to 13A.


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## stoveliker (Aug 27, 2022)

And that 250 kWh gives you how many miles?

I'm calculating what I can do with my yearly solar overproduction when an EV comes in.

(If not enough, I have to add a woodshed for more wood heat and less minisplit heat :lol:


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## EbS-P (Aug 27, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> And that 250 kWh gives you how many miles?
> 
> I'm calculating what I can do with my yearly solar overproduction when an EV comes in.
> 
> (If not enough, I have to add a woodshed for more wood heat and less minisplit heat :lol:


Something isn’t adding up.  My trip odometer that was reset on August 1 is reporting 460 miles and  165 KWh used and my app is showing 200 kWh.   So it’s either 165 or 200 kWh for 460 miles.


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## woodgeek (Aug 27, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> Something isn’t adding up.  My trip odometer that was reset on August 1 is reporting 460 miles and  165 KWh used and my app is showing 200 kWh.   So it’s either 165 or 200 kWh for 460 miles.


INTERESTING!

Does the app include your famous Tesla vampire loads?  2 kWh/day?  Does it include a correction (estimate) for charging efficiency?  The latter would be half of the difference (about 10%).  So then 1 kWh/day vampire load gives the rest.


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## EbS-P (Aug 27, 2022)

woodgeek said:


> INTERESTING!
> 
> Does the app include your famous Tesla vampire loads?  2 kWh/day?  Does it include a correction (estimate) for charging efficiency?  The latter would be half of the difference (about 10%).  So then 1 kWh/day vampire load gives the rest.


All good questions.  I’m not far enough down the Tesla hyper loop to have answers. Nor do I care enough to spend to much time looking into it.  I won’t be able to change anything about it.  

I sure someone has figured it out.  There are owners that are reflashing the software to roll back updates.  

The real answer would be to measure usage at the sub panel.  Then one could compare all 3 numbers.


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## tlc1976 (Aug 29, 2022)

How much do these batteries lose their initial charge with time?  That’s another loss. Extreme example, but if I fill my tank and store it for the winter, I’ll have a full tank in the spring. If I fully charge up my EV and store it for winter, I’ll probably have a dead and destroyed battery in the spring. It might take a lot more input to get the same output over time. Over the course of the month every little bit adds up.


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## EbS-P (Aug 29, 2022)

tlc1976 said:


> How much do these batteries lose their initial charge with time?  That’s another loss. Extreme example, but if I fill my tank and store it for the winter, I’ll have a full tank in the spring. If I fully charge up my EV and store it for winter, I’ll probably have a dead and destroyed battery in the spring. It might take a lot more input to get the same output over time. Over the course of the month every little bit adds up.


Vampire drain is real.  Depends on many factors but one could just estimate 1-2 kWh a day.  That’s probably the best case.  If you Use sentry mode a more.  Teslas are never really off.  The 30 seconds to boot up can be annoying.  I’m not sure what the new ones are like.  Mine will be 6 years old in December.


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## peakbagger (Aug 29, 2022)

tlc1976 said:


> How much do these batteries lose their initial charge with time?  That’s another loss. Extreme example, but if I fill my tank and store it for the winter, I’ll have a full tank in the spring. If I fully charge up my EV and store it for winter, I’ll probably have a dead and destroyed battery in the spring. It might take a lot more input to get the same output over time. Over the course of the month every little bit adds up.


Most lithium batteries have Battery Management Systems (BMS) on them that open up a relay when the charge gets too low to protect the battery from damage.  A lot of the home brew battery packs use no name chi com BMS and some of them skip the Low voltage disconnect. Leaving a tank full of ethanol blended gas over a winter comes at possible cost of damage to the fuel system. It's especially noticeable on small engines and recreational vehicles. The local gas stations sell ethanol free and they sell a lot of it as it does not break down like the corn gas does for long term storage.


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## woodgeek (Aug 29, 2022)

tlc1976 said:


> How much do these batteries lose their initial charge with time?  That’s another loss. Extreme example, but if I fill my tank and store it for the winter, I’ll have a full tank in the spring. If I fully charge up my EV and store it for winter, I’ll probably have a dead and destroyed battery in the spring. It might take a lot more input to get the same output over time. Over the course of the month every little bit adds up.



Not clear what you are asking.  Self discharge of a disconnected Lithium battery is very low.  But as others have mentioned, loads on the car can pull it down over time.  Most EVs lose a small percentage when parked for a few weeks (I've done the experiment).  Overall, I trust an EV to 'start' after being parked waaay more than an ICE car, esp in colder weather.

As for the battery losing capacity with age.  Yeah, we are al familiar with that happening with phone batteries.  But those are engineered to be cheap and last 2 years.  EV batteries are engineered to last for 15+ years in service, and have a 8-10 year warranty (against degradation to below 70-80% or so).  I have a 7 yo Volt that still has nominal range compared to when it was new.

The thing that 'wears' EV batteries faster are high temps (over 100°F), freezing (below like -10°F), cycling to 0% charge, and cycling to 100% charge.   The temps are handled by the onboard system (which keeps the battery at happy temps using the onboard AC).  AS a user, the warranty is fine if you abused it... charged it to 100% and ran it down to 0% every time before plugging it in.  In practice, most owners keep it between 20-80% charge except on road trips... they expect to get 15+ years easy.

Longer range EVs last longer... bc there are fewer cycles.  A good battery can handle 1000 cycles 0-100%.  If the car can drive 250 miles on a cycle, that is a 250,000 mile battery, longer than most ICE engines.  If you baby it (20-80%)  I'd expect it would be good for well over 300-350,000 miles.


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## EbS-P (Aug 29, 2022)

My daily charge is to set to charge to 70%.  I can miss a day or two of charging and still be above 25-30%.  It will be 6 years old in December and has 27k miles.  100% range works out to be 253 miles but i haven’t actually given it a full charge.  I haven’t supercharged is in a long time.  I’ll baby it and run it as long as I can.


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## DBoon (Sep 3, 2022)

I charge my battery to 90% full in the winter and 85% full in the summer, with a once/week recharge overnight Saturday unless I'm going on a road trip. 

My Bolt does consume some electricity to keep the battery warm when temperatures get below freezing. If temps were 0 degrees constantly, this might amount to 1.5 kWh/day. At 20 degrees, it seems like about 500 watts a day (or so). If it got very hot (which it doesn't in Central NY) it would do the same to keep the battery cool if temperatures extended above 90 degrees for long periods of time, without cooling down. In the winter I just keep it plugged in (but not charging) and it draws the power (as needed) to keep the battery warm from the wall socket instead of the battery. It's not a big deal. It doesn't consume enough power to change the favorable economics of electric vs. gas. 

Forget all the old "wisdom" about batteries from 20 or so years ago - what others said is very true for most well-designed electric cars with good battery management systems (I don't put the original Nissan Leaf in that category) - stay in a reasonable range of charge most of the time and avoid topping off every day/night and the battery will outlast the body of the car. My original Bolt battery had 75,000 miles on it when it was replaced due to the recall, and that showed no capacity degradation during that time (aside from the limitations GM put on it with the software "upgrade").


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## EbS-P (Sep 10, 2022)

It may not be stove season down here yet, but it is BEV season. 284 Wh/mile city driving.   Beats EPA estimate.


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## woodgeek (Sep 10, 2022)

Oink.  That 's 1/0.284 = 3.5 mi/kWh.

In my local driving I was cruising at 4.8 mi/kWh this week.  But ofc, I only have 5 seats, not 7.  And my car is 5 years newer?

And ofc my car only weighs 3800 lbs empty, versus yours being >5000.


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## peakbagger (Sep 10, 2022)

My Rav 4 prime is reading 3.3 miles per KW (its heavy)


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## EbS-P (Sep 10, 2022)

woodgeek said:


> Oink.  That 's 1/0.284 = 3.5 mi/kWh.
> 
> In my local driving I was cruising at 4.8 mi/kWh this week.  But ofc, I only have 5 seats, not 7.  And my car is 5 years newer?
> 
> And ofc my car only weighs 3800 lbs empty, versus yours being >5000.


5800 pounds with just me in it Over 6000 on the way to school.    I want a Tesla to come out with a new smaller than the 3  or bigger than the y model and make it RWD.


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## SpaceBus (Sep 11, 2022)

Why are manufacturers making FWD electric vehicles? From a vehicle dynamics and packaging standpoint, it makes way more sense for the non steering axle to get the power. FWD ICE vehicles make sense for packaging, but EVs have comparatively much smaller motors. I bet it's even cheaper to use independent motors than a differential as well. Are FWD EVs being made because that's what people are used to? I feel like dual motor RWD or quad motor AWD is less complex and maybe cheaper than a single motor FWD with some kind of planetary gear drivetrain going through the steering end of the vehicle. Perhaps it saves on R&D or tooling to use an existing FWD ICE platform.


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## woodgeek (Sep 11, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> Why are manufacturers making FWD electric vehicles? From a vehicle dynamics and packaging standpoint, it makes way more sense for the non steering axle to get the power. FWD ICE vehicles make sense for packaging, but EVs have comparatively much smaller motors. I bet it's even cheaper to use independent motors than a differential as well. Are FWD EVs being made because that's what people are used to? I feel like dual motor RWD or quad motor AWD is less complex and maybe cheaper than a single motor FWD with some kind of planetary gear drivetrain going through the steering end of the vehicle. Perhaps it saves on R&D or tooling to use an existing FWD ICE platform.



I think the perception is that people prefer FWD to RWD vehicles.  And there are a number of power electronics and cooling systems that need to be integrated together with the motor, so FWD makes for a more compact package?


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## EbS-P (Sep 11, 2022)

Flat floor from foot well to rear of car would be my guess.  More cabin volume with FWD.  so it’s packaging thing.  Like it was with ICE cars.  Electric motor still stakes up some space.   I’ve never liked FWD.   a differential is cheap compared to another motor.  Rear floor steps up on third row of teslas to accommodate rear drive unit.  

As someone who grew up with Lamborghini Countach posters on my wall I’m rear wheel biased.  I think tire wear is better on RWD.  

Cooling is just running lines.  So it’s just some extra hose. That adds up for a year’s production though.


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## stoveliker (Sep 11, 2022)

Front wheel drive is simply safer when wintry precipitation is on the road.


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## EbS-P (Sep 11, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> Front wheel drive is simply safer when wintry precipitation is on the road.


True but I don’t think that is a huge factor.  But with a big heavy battery getting good weight distribution for a RWD BEV would be possible.  I’m just not a big enough Tesla fan I guess.  Ford has their EV motor available as a crate motor.   It won’t be long until your favorite 60 or 70s muscle cars start showing up swapped to Electric drive.   100 miles of range would be plenty.


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## stoveliker (Sep 11, 2022)

Maybe. I do think that it is intrinsically safer to have front wheel drive. The problem is that WHEN traction is compromised, I much rather drive a front wheel drive than a rear wheel drive. Even if the chances for such issue are lower because of the weight of the car.

(And I don't have a favorite muscle car. I drive an abomination - but it cost me ten grand new, gets me 40+ mpg, and gets me where I need to be.)


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## EbS-P (Sep 11, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> Maybe. I do think that it is intrinsically safer to have front wheel drive. The problem is that WHEN traction is compromised, I much rather drive a front wheel drive than a rear wheel drive. Even if the chances for such issue are lower because of the weight of the car.
> 
> (And I don't have a favorite muscle car. I drive an abomination - but it cost me ten grand new, gets me 40+ mpg, and gets me where I need to be.)


I had posters and dreams now all I have is a much more educated brain that prioritizes reality and safety!


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## tlc1976 (Sep 11, 2022)

With an EV you can just as easily put the motor in the rear, no need for a driveshaft tunnel.

FWD is more predictable when it’s slippery out. It pulls you straight. The EV battery weight can balance the car as good as the engineer wants. RWD can spin out if you’re not careful, pulling out onto the highway, going up a slippery hill. IMO the only thing RWD is good for is racing and towing.


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## SpaceBus (Sep 12, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> Front wheel drive is simply safer when wintry precipitation is on the road.


No, it's no safer, that's all perception. In most FWD vehicles there is more mass on the driven wheels, which means more traction. That's it. FWD doesn't steer or stop any better in slippery conditions, simply accelerates easier. RWD is dynamically superior in basically every way, aside from possibly a long hood on an ICE RWD. 

A FWD car will tend to understeer through a turn if you go too fast, but RWD cars tend to oversteer which gives the perception that they are less safe. I would say barreling through the right hand guard rail isn't much different than hitting the one on the left.  

Friction used for accelerating can't be used for turning, so an FWD car will understeer at comparatively lower speeds than a RWD car will give up traction and oversteer. Furthermore FWD cars can get really squirrely in traction adverse situations and without torque vectoring differentials, really slick traction and stability management, or a mechanical diff and good driver they can get into just as much trouble as RWD. After having been to a lot of performance driving events I can say that RWD is MUCH easier to drive than FWD. 

Friction used for turning can't be used for accelerating or braking, same goes for any of the three. FWD is entirely compromised in this because the front wheels have to Steer, accelerate, and do 70% of the braking. This is why high end AWD cars with torque vectoring (think STI, EVO, Lamborghini, Audi, etc.) don't send any power to the front unless there is slip.


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## stoveliker (Sep 12, 2022)

More mass on the driven wheels = more friction = safer.

I am not sure I agree with "friction used for turning can't be used for ...".
More friction means less chance of loosing traction (defined not necessarily as only along the driving vector, as you seem to do).

Without (rolling) friction, there is no traction OR steering.


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## peakbagger (Sep 12, 2022)

That is the interesting part with BEVs, the best designs are going to start with a clean sheet of paper. My guess is its still easier to integrate steering drive and propulsion into one module that can be fit in multiple platforms and that favors front drive. Most designs seem to favor thin flat battery trays under the floor to increase surface area to improve cooling. As I mentioned previously hub drive will make it more interesting as that changes things even more.


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## EbS-P (Sep 12, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> More mass on the driven wheels = more friction = safer.
> 
> I am not sure I agree with "friction used for turning can't be used for ...".
> More friction means less chance of loosing traction (defined not necessarily as only along the driving vector, as you seem to do).
> ...


Max static (not rolling)  frictional force is what accelerates the car.  It changes it’s speed or direction or both.   So I would agree that friction used for straight line acceleration or breaking can’t be used for turning. The force vector is only so big but can change its direction.  Now we could get into weight shift under breaking.


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## EbS-P (Sep 12, 2022)

Thread is now talking FWD vs RWD  it’s just a matter of time before we are drifting


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## stoveliker (Sep 12, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> Max static (not rolling)  frictional force is what accelerates the car.  It changes it’s speed or direction or both.   So I would agree that friction used for straight line acceleration or breaking can’t be used for turning. The force vector is only so big but can change its direction.  Now we could get into weight shift under breaking.


I agree I made a mistake.
Regardless, the force vector is only so big, so increasing its size is what makes it capable of doing more. Hence FWD (more weight on the driven wheels) is safer.


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## SpaceBus (Sep 12, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> More mass on the driven wheels = more friction = safer.
> 
> I am not sure I agree with "friction used for turning can't be used for ...".
> More friction means less chance of loosing traction (defined not necessarily as only along the driving vector, as you seem to do).
> ...


More friction does not equal safer. Most RWD cars have equal mass on the driven and steering tires. EVs can put that mass just about anywhere, no need to use FWD to increase front traction. 

Better writers than me can explain tire friction.
Here's my "short" version learned from first hand experience and going to driving instruction. The traction the tires can generate is finite. In any car the front tires are being tasked with both steering and accelerating and decelerating in a turn. There is only so much friction available for either task, and exceeding the limit in steering, braking, or accelerating is how you end up with over/under steer events. Again, FWD traction benefits are only significant for accelerating from a dead stop in slippery conditions. There is no benefit to steering or braking. See all the AWD/4x4 vehicles stuck in the ditch when it snows. They may have superior acceleration ability in the snow, but no benefit to steering or braking. In dry conditions RWD has superior acceleration dynamics after 60' as the weight transfers to the rear of the vehicle. Obviously AWD is the best in either dry or slick conditions as they have at least one driven wheel at either end, but the returns are diminishing as speed increases. As the vehicle speed increases weight will inherently transfer to the rear end. You can get a FWD car to oversteer quite easily in some cases by simply lifting of the throttle very aggressively before entering a corner. Opposite of how you would do it in a RWD car, but you can also get a RWD car to understeer going too hot into a corner if you are off throttle.


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## tlc1976 (Sep 12, 2022)

The high number of AWD / 4WD vehicles in the ditch is usually due to overconfidence.


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## stoveliker (Sep 12, 2022)

@SpaceBus
The case of an inverted pendulum may be illuminating - it is *inherently* unstable. Pushing mass from the rear is too, needing friction to stay on course more than pulling it from the front.

We appear to disagree. Let's shake hands and stay happy. 
The important point is we both agree with the value of and need for EVs.


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## EbS-P (Oct 8, 2022)

Passed 4000 miles last week.  Instead of changing the  oil I’ll give you my my honest thoughts.   The X was a hand-me-down gift from my bother in-law.  We are very fortunate.   I looked the horse in the mouth.  1500$ for tires,  700$ for a charger and 650$ to register.  I’m not saving any money in the next 5 years compared to if I have driven my minivan.  What it did was push of the purchase of a vehicle. So yes it’s saved me quite a bit.  I until I am forced to replace the mini van.  

Anyone thinking about an EV as an additional vehicle does not need to worry about the EV range.  We have have not road tripped in it (it won’t fit us). The most it’s ever driven in a day was 65 miles.  I could easily get by with anything that has 100 miles range.  Those products don’t exist.  I expect as production increases and that outpaces battery availability we may see that some models sold with smaller ranges.  

Tesla pushed a lot of new ideas and concepts but the the actual execution could have been/can be better.  No one would put up with Tesla’s  short comings in any product offered by a mainstream auto manufacturer. My big screen goes black 5-10 minutes per week of driving. No AC no maps no rear camera no music no turn signal audio. It’s integration with iPhones (at least on my MCU1) is terrible. Voice commands just don’t work ever.   But Tesla gets a pass.  They have revolutionized the auto industry.  All parts I argue. And it is not a net benefit to the customer.   They will evolve as a carmaker but not don’t see quality and reliability  as future selling points.  Maybe one could hope.  I see them as a futuristic tech company more focused on tomorrows products and not on making today’s better.   6 years ago my model X was sold promising self driving tech that has not materialized.  Sure it’s gotten better but they haven’t upgraded any hardware on my model X. 

I am delaying maintenance because the nearest service center is 2.5 hours  away.  I’m not sure they could guarantee I would be able to get the work done and home in the same day.  

At the end of the day the only Tesla I could justify from a cost perspective is the RWD model 3.  But after driving my first performance car ever part of me would really want the performance version.  I don’t think the next EV I buy with my money will be a Tesla.  Unless they have a new van that seats 7+ with lots of cargo room and can tow a 4000# trailer 250 miles between charging.  The value just isn’t there.  I won’t ever spend 200$ a month on self driving.  Or pay 12k$ upfront.  

Number one reason to buy Tesla is you need to replace an ICE and the Tesla’s charging network is the best there is. full stop.  

Only reason to buy a model X is….. uh the doors?? I guess.  It’s fun. Lots of fun.  So I guess there is that.


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## begreen (Oct 9, 2022)

Sounds like towing in a big van will not happen. This really kills range.

We drive the Volt pretty much like you do, mostly for local driving. Its 65mile summer EV range covers almost all our needs.  The car is a pleasure to take on a trip, but we haven't done a long one since the pandemic. The longest single drive I have done on it was about 600 miles with a stop for gas.


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## peakbagger (Oct 22, 2022)

Solid State Battery 620 mile range https://www.notebookcheck.net/Solid...-anode-for-up-to-620-mile-range.663233.0.html


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## begreen (Oct 23, 2022)

peakbagger said:


> Solid State Battery 620 mile range https://www.notebookcheck.net/Solid...-anode-for-up-to-620-mile-range.663233.0.html


And faster charging with simplified cooling. If production costs are reduced and it is durable, with good cold weather performance, they could have a winner. I'd be happy with a smaller pack and 300 mile range.


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## EbS-P (Oct 23, 2022)

peakbagger said:


> Solid State Battery 620 mile range https://www.notebookcheck.net/Solid...-anode-for-up-to-620-mile-range.663233.0.html





begreen said:


> And faster charging with simplified cooling. If production costs are reduced and it is durable, with good cold weather performance, they could have a winner. I'd be happy with a smaller pack and 300 mile range.


There will be some interesting BEVs in 5 years.   We needed them 5 years ago!


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## peakbagger (Oct 23, 2022)

I remember the dawn of the PC era, computers were progressing so rapidly that a two year old computer was almost unusable.  I think we are on the same steep curve with EV batteries.


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## woodgeek (Oct 24, 2022)

peakbagger said:


> I remember the dawn of the PC era, computers were progressing so rapidly that a two year old computer was almost unusable.  I think we are on the same steep curve with EV batteries.


I think we are in a state of rapid progress with EVs, but things will be a little bit more drawn out.

This is why I decided to do a 3 year lease on a not-too-expensive EV.  The resale could get creamed by a big tech advance, or be strong if everyone wants a used EV.  With a lease I get a guaranteed trade-in (residual) value.  If the car is worth a lot less than that, I can hand the dealer back the keys and they eat the difference.  If the car is worth more, I can buy it at that price and resell it.

Either way, if I am excited by the new and shiny EV offerings in 2025, I will not feel 'stuck' in old vehicle.


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## EbS-P (Oct 24, 2022)

woodgeek said:


> I think we are in a state of rapid progress with EVs, but things will be a little bit more drawn out.
> 
> This is why I decided to do a 3 year lease on a not-too-expensive EV.  The resale could get creamed by a big tech advance, or be strong if everyone wants a used EV.  With a lease I get a guaranteed trade-in (residual) value.  If the car is worth a lot less than that, I can hand the dealer back the keys and they eat the difference.  If the car is worth more, I can buy it at that price and resell it.
> 
> Either way, if I am excited by the new and shiny EV offerings in 2025, I will not feel 'stuck' in old vehicle.


The car subscription service will be an interesting business venture to watch why tie yourself in to a 3 year lease when you can get it by the month(I think there was a minimum of like 4 or 6 months).


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## EbS-P (Nov 2, 2022)

I’m planning our first out of town trip.  For the life of me I can’t find a any tools that will plan a round trip and minimize charging time.  

It will be 190 miles one way. No charging at destination.  EPA range is 254 on a full charge.     There is a super charger 80 miles from destination.  So I’m left to do the math to figure out how much charge I want to leave that charger with.  Just seems something this common. Would be a feature of all the navigation systems.   “Will this be a round trip?” Check yes.  How many miles will you be driving at the destination before your return trip?   Done!   

Maybe I’m missing something?  I hope so.


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## woodgeek (Nov 2, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> I’m planning our first out of town trip.  For the life of me I can’t find a any tools that will plan a round trip and minimize charging time.
> 
> It will be 190 miles one way. No charging at destination.  EPA range is 254 on a full charge.     There is a super charger 80 miles from destination.  So I’m left to do the math to figure out how much charge I want to leave that charger with.  Just seems something this common. Would be a feature of all the navigation systems.   “Will this be a round trip?” Check yes.  How many miles will you be driving at the destination before your return trip?   Done!
> 
> Maybe I’m missing something?  I hope so.



ABRP is what everyone uses.  The free version is great.  The pay version takes things like weather into account.  Overkill IMO.






						ABRP
					






					abetterrouteplanner.com
				




Download the app, running it in a phone browser sucks.

I think the Tesla has that all built in to the infotainment (never played with a Tesla).  Don't know if there is an app equivalent.

The Non-Tesla EVs in car navs do this too, badly.  Folks mostly use ABRP, and port it with CarPlay or AA to the screen.  

In a Tesla, you don't have Carplay or AA, and need to use the in car nav to do this.  I think.


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## woodgeek (Nov 2, 2022)

For CCS charging stations found by ABRP, I then also check PlugShare to get their uptime stats, nearby retail and food, etc.

I also recommend that anyone thinking of getting an EV download ABRP, and put their most common trips in it to see what charging is like.


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## EbS-P (Nov 2, 2022)

woodgeek said:


> ABRP is what everyone uses.  The free version is great.  The pay version takes things like weather into account.  Overkill IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok I though I got Abrp last night but it was plug share.  Ok.  Seems like this is way to solve.


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## begreen (Nov 3, 2022)

Knowing the location of charging stations is one thing. Knowing their current status is another really important data point. There's nothing like driving 10 miles out of your way in unfamiliar territory only to find out that the charger is broken, or occupied for the next 4 hrs.


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## EbS-P (Nov 3, 2022)

begreen said:


> Knowing the location of charging stations is one thing. Knowing their current status is another really important data point. There's nothing like driving 10 miles out of your way in unfamiliar territory only to find out that the charger is broken, or occupied for the next 4 hrs.


This is where I think Tesla has an advantage.   I’m sure they get full but with 8+ chargers is per location I don’t expect to wait long.  At least in Rockingham NC.  I pop over to my local super charger once a month and have never seen all 10 stalls full.  

Ran the route through ABRP.  For 400 mile trip I’m charging a total of 58 minutes.   Probably will charge to more than planer lists not sure how much driving at the destination we will do.  And the wedding chose the hotel that does not have chargers.


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## woodgeek (Nov 4, 2022)

begreen said:


> Knowing the location of charging stations is one thing. Knowing their current status is another really important data point. There's nothing like driving 10 miles out of your way in unfamiliar territory only to find out that the charger is broken, or occupied for the next 4 hrs.



BG, this sort of thing has become MUCH less of a problem in my experience.  The new stations (along say I-95) usually have 4-10 stalls (making it more likely that one or two offline stations are not a problem) and this means congestion is less of a problem (I have never had to wait, even when there were 4-5 other vehicles there already charging).  Also, a lot of the new vehicles charge at 150kW or higher, and are stopping for just 20 minutes or even less.  

Also, there are plenty of stations within a couple miles of the route. Oddly, the stations at the rest areas on 95 (in New Jersey) are older, slower and smaller.  I usually drive 2 miles off 95 to a Walmart that has a huge bank of new chargers.

When I did this one Sunday evening, it was a 'party' of a dozen different high-end EV's and their owners hanging out and eyeing each others' hot rods like something out of American Graffiti.

Three tricks I have learned:
1. All DCFC take credit cards.  But do NOT use a credit card.  Many of the (unattended) readers have been hacked and your number will be stolen.  Use the network app on your phone to pay.
2. Sometimes a unit is offline, and the app will tell you that, but the unit itself will not (there is no attendant to put a sign on it).  I have seen people pull up to a (offline) unit plug in, get frustrated, etc.  And then I tell them the app says its off line.  Check the app.
3. Sometimes a unit will be working, but will only charge at 25 kW or so.  Just switch units or the cable on the unit you're on if it has two.  These cables (for 150 or 300 kW) are liquid cooled.  If the coolant flow is blocked, the unit derates to 25 kW.  This is better than 0 kW and keeps a user from getting stranded (so you can see why they do that), but not what you need.

EBS-P will be using Tesla stations, so I suspect none of this will be an issue.


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## begreen (Nov 4, 2022)

Main freeway corridors are improving, but not everyone travels on the interstate system. That's where it gets dicier. In eastern WA, OR, NV one is more likely to take a US highway instead to travel. ABRP shows nothing for these routes that cover hundreds of miles.

Just for yuks I looked at ABRP for a trip from Seattle to Lewiston, ID in a Chevy Bolt. The first recommended place had 2 out of 3 chargers out of service. The second stop if you made it this far was listed as "unknown". Not confidence inspiring considering one could be stranded. And few options if one is. I love driving electric, but the charging network is not robust unless one owns a Tesla, and that is not going to happen for me.


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## EbS-P (Nov 5, 2022)

I wonder what Tesla opening their chargers to everyone will do?   I could see some premium membership club with a monthly fee that allows you reserve the 250 kw chargers.


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## woodgeek (Nov 5, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> I wonder what Tesla opening their chargers to everyone will do?   I could see some premium membership club with a monthly fee that allows you reserve the 250 kw chargers.



If I recall, they are opening to capture some govt $$ that rewards them being open.  I think that they will only open a subset of the DCFC at each station, so there can still be haves and have nots.


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## EbS-P (Nov 5, 2022)

woodgeek said:


> If I recall, they are opening to capture some govt $$ that rewards them being open.  I think that they will only open a subset of the DCFC at each station, so there can still be haves and have nots.


Yeah but I think there is a third class that sees Tesla as a premium luxury brand and wants treated accordingly.  The number of Tesla owners really upset that they don’t get  a a loaner car when they go in for service is a lot.


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## tlc1976 (Nov 5, 2022)

I wonder if there is some app, with network of homeowners with an EV charger installed who are willing to let others use it. They could show their charger type, fee, and status. So someone could arrange something with them either in advance or in a pinch. Maybe even some good samaritins where helping someone in a bind is worth more than the charging cost. When  the commercial charging network is spotty and unreliable, or in some places nonexistent.

Yeah there’s always risk but no worse than uber, or any other service.

If there’s legality with the power company, it might have to be limited to folks who generate their own power like solar or wind. Could get your system paid for faster.


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## stoveliker (Nov 5, 2022)

You'd have to talk to your insurance first. And given the exclusions for e.g. Uber in car insurance policies, I expect to have the same thing with opening your charger for *paid* use.


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## woodgeek (Nov 5, 2022)

tlc1976 said:


> I wonder if there is some app, with network of homeowners with an EV charger installed who are willing to let others use it. They could show their charger type, fee, and status. So someone could arrange something with them either in advance or in a pinch. Maybe even some good samaritins where helping someone in a bind is worth more than the charging cost. When  the commercial charging network is spotty and unreliable, or in some places nonexistent.
> 
> Yeah there’s always risk but no worse than uber, or any other service.
> 
> If there’s legality with the power company, it might have to be limited to folks who generate their own power like solar or wind. Could get your system paid for faster.


The Plugshare app did just this at the dawn of the EV age, and still does.  Its just that most folks are not interested in L2 speeds.

What is needed is for hotel/motels to install more L2 (which are cheap) as destination chargers.  Few do.


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## peakbagger (Nov 5, 2022)

Level 2 chargers are not cheap with commercial electric account. A building electrical system has to be built to supply the worst case power demand and adding multiple 240volt  20Amp circuits that could be engaged at the same time means a serious upgrade to the incoming electric meter and gear. I think they would much rather lease a conrer fo the parking lot to some third party to let them deal with hassle and power demand charges.


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## woodgeek (Nov 5, 2022)

peakbagger said:


> Level 2 chargers are not cheap with commercial electric account. A building electrical system has to be built to supply the worst case power demand and adding multiple 240volt  20Amp circuits that could be engaged at the same time means a serious upgrade to the incoming electric meter and gear. I think they would much rather lease a conrer fo the parking lot to some third party to let them deal with hassle and power demand charges.



There are a number of outfits/arrangements that do just that, including Tesla.


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## EbS-P (Nov 5, 2022)

Traveling out of town I would only ever want level 2 over night.  

You could always charge 15$ For a palm reading.  Charging could be a friendly gesture


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## EbS-P (Jan 6, 2023)

6k+ mile  update.  Front axels are getting a bit louder.  They will need replaced this year.  Rear tire wear will be an issue.  I bet I’m lucky to make 20k down to the wear bars on the rear inside treads.  Rethinking the 3k$+ rear suspension upgrade to get adjustable camber arms.

I got to push the full self driving beta enroll button and get a safety score.  I don’t have, and have no expectation now of ever getting FSD.  And keeping a decent safety score takes all the fun out of driving. The button was a trick.  

Some day I’d like to to see what 1/4 mile pass feels like.  

2022 was 10.5 months 6200k miles. Tesla says 359$ in electric charging.  Call it 60$ per 1k miles.  2.2 miles per kWh or 435Wh/mile. In car menu says 342 Wh/mile.


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## begreen (Jan 6, 2023)

That's decent. If I did the math correctly, an equivalent range of thankful, say 300 miles, cost $17.37.
 How is the total spent calculated? Tesla chargers or all charging? Does it include level 2 charging at a Chargepoint charger? Does the charging cost include home charging too?


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## semipro (Jan 6, 2023)

woodgeek said:


> What is needed is for hotel/motels to install more L2 (which are cheap) as destination chargers. Few do.


Totally agree.  I think that this is a missed opportunity for many hosts, including restaurants.  
I frequently provide this feedback to business owners when I see this as a potential way to increase their business.


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## EbS-P (Jan 6, 2023)

begreen said:


> That's decent. If I did the math correctly, an equivalent range of thankful, say 300 miles, cost $17.37.
> How is the total spent calculated? Tesla chargers or all charging? Does it include level 2 charging at a Chargepoint charger? Does the charging cost include home charging too?


I only pay for home level 2 (that I restrict to 13 A ) charging.  Last bill was up to 14 cents per KWH.  

Public destination chargers (level 2) are free and i plug in when convenient maybe 5-10 kWh a month. I’ll stop at the supper charger if I have below 50% and time.  Yesterday I supercharged charged 50 kWhs. 

The free supercharging  reduced the tots cost by 8% but I think I does figure in the cost of the other (free to me me charging). But not sure.

I have not used any other public chargers than the super charger and the destination charger 3 miles from my house.


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