# 2020 “phase 2” and outdoor wood boilers



## Dmurph2016 (Jul 27, 2019)

Pretty new to the forum, I don’t own a house with a outdoor wood boiler but the concept is pretty interesting to me so I’ve been reading up on it. I see the 2020 the epa is changing regulations. How is this going to affect manufactures such as central boiler? ( the main name I’ve seen) are the newer stoves that much better? Or are they not worth running anymore do to all the epa crap that makes them less reliable/ more work and expensive to hear with?


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## SpaceBus (Jul 27, 2019)

I'm not sure on which boiler MFG's will be 2020 compliant. Unlike EPA emission controls on cars and trucks, there are no downsides to having them on the stove. You will use less wood and keep the air around your air clean. It's a win win, you have less work to do and your kids won't get lung cancer!


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## blades (Jul 28, 2019)

there are several newer designs- central boiler-  has their E-classic supposedly EPA compliant but do not state which specs it meets.  You can bet the cost will increase substantially.  A a whole the OWB industry is scrambling due to their own procrastination.  Other thing to check is your local regs. in some areas they are banned completely. In my own location I can't install one -Local ordinance- but there is a small flaw in the ordinance as it specifically states OWB-- there are air to air outdoor furnaces as well. The main problem with these units is the whole outside casing is a water jacket this in turn sucks a lot of heat off the fire giving incomplete combustion - some of the newer designs have included secondary burn tubes added on the the original design.   A few have gone to the more classical design of a true boiler systems ditching the full water jacket approach. Even fewer have incorporated cats- those likely will be the ones that will make the specs not just the current temporary ones now in place.  with a cat system you now have a exhaust temp in the 1000 deg+ area that can be used to heart your transfer media with out impacting the burn temp in the main combustion chamber.


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## Aranyic (Jul 28, 2019)

You can check EPA certifications at this website for hydronic heaters; only  a couple have hit 2020 specs unless it's out of date (it is an EPA website so who knows how often that is done).  

https://cfpub.epa.gov/oarweb/woodstove/index.cfm?fuseaction=app.searchwh

I've been looking at them a couple years and still waffling between indoor with storage or outdoor.  There have been a couple of threads I've started and I'm coming out about $2000-$2500 more going with an indoor using non-pressurized storage.  My wife can go either way we've settled on a good location for the outdoor stove that's kind of out of sight.  And got a layout in the basement for the indoor with storage.  

At the moment I'm leaning more OWB primarly due to one fact.  When I burned indoors I went to a blazeking catalytic stove because I loved running a twice a day loading cycle and not having to every really worry about starting a new fire.  I loaded in the morning; burned it on high for 20-25 minutes to char the wood and then loaded again when I got home.  The OWB is much more similar to that style of usage.  Realistically as much as I like the aspects of the indoor with storage I think I'll be happier with that scenario.

I've pretty much got my choices down to a Heatmaster G200 and a Central Boiler Classic Edge 550 HD Titanium.  

Heatmaster generally has the much better reputation online; the down side the dealer is 2 hours away and the stove is a little over $1700 more.  The distance and some issues reaching the dealer concerns me more than the money.  I realize he does all HVAC and it's been a hot couple weeks here; I'm sure they are swamped.  But it took 3-4 calls over 2 weeks to finally reach him and it won't be much better when it's 15 degrees out in January if I have an issue.

Then I've got a CB dealer 35-40 minutes away with an excellent reputation.  It's a father (originally) now father/son that have been selling them for 25 years.  I went over this weekend and spent an hour going through the stove and talking through the overall setup.


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## E Yoder (Jul 29, 2019)

Very few boilers are 2020 compliant right now. I expect to see several coming out this winter before the May 15 2020 deadline. I don't expect them to be worse as far as reliability goes, but the price will most likely go up a bit.


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## Ashful (Jul 29, 2019)

Dmurph2016 said:


> I see the 2020 the epa is changing regulations. How is this going to affect manufactures such as central boiler?


Would it be too much to hope it completely shuts them down?  Outdoor boiler installations are usually horrendously inefficient, due to a combination of poor design, line losses, and poor operator habits (re-enforced by a “mess is out there” attitude).  They should be banned, IMO, and thankfully that is happening in many areas.  



Dmurph2016 said:


> Or are they not worth running anymore do to all the epa crap that makes them less reliable/ more work and expensive to hear with?


On wood stoves, which went thru a massive EPA cleanup 30 years ago, the results have been wholly positive.   There were some initial hiccups though, the wood burning industry isn’t known for rapid innovation and deep R&D.


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## maple1 (Jul 29, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Would it be too much to hope it completely shuts them down?  Outdoor boiler installations are usually horrendously inefficient, to to a combination of poor design, line losses, and poor operator habits, re-enforces by a “mess is out there” attitude.  They should be banned, IMO, and thankfully that is happening in many areas.
> 
> 
> On wood stoves, which went thru a massive EPA cleanup 30 years ago, the results have been wholly positive.   There were some initial hiccups though, the wood burning industry isn’t know for rapid innovation and deep R&D.



Seems a little bit of inconsistency in that - why not give the OWBs a chance at getting better with the same sort of EPA cleanup that cleaned your stoves up? Maybe there would be a similarly wholly positive result. Why call for a complete ban on OWBs when stoves improved without one?

Not a fan of the 'ban' word, in general, I guess.


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## Bad LP (Jul 29, 2019)

I'm also not a fan of the ban wagon. Areas that had problems addressed that with restricting installation and I don't blame them. I mean what kind of moron installs a stink pipe in the middle of a suburban neighborhood and loads it up with green wood?

We all know these OWB can be made to burn clean with proper design and education. 

That said I go by a rural place in the winter that has made their boiler portable. Yup, water lines on the ground going into the basement thru a cellar window. There is not a stick of wood to be found at the place all year until winter when a fresh pile is dumped on the ground next to the boiler. The smoke coming out of that thing is disgusting.
I went past another place last winter (I take many different routes home) that had a boiler or stove in the basement with a SS pipe coming out the cellar window and up the side of the house. Issue was they didn't have enough pipe so it stopped at a window at the second floor and they were using the flue. The front of the house was covered in this black goo from the pipe and you could not see out the window. I should have stopped and taken a picture.


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## Ashful (Jul 29, 2019)

maple1 said:


> Seems a little bit of inconsistency in that - why not give the OWBs a chance at getting better with the same sort of EPA cleanup that cleaned your stoves up? Maybe there would be a similarly wholly positive result. Why call for a complete ban on OWBs when stoves improved without one?
> 
> Not a fan of the 'ban' word, in general, I guess.



Due to line loss, short stacks, and other inefficiencies built into the very principle of locating the boiler outside of your heated envelope, they will always have lower net efficiency than the same tech built into an indoor boiler.  That is my primary issue with them, and why you often see their owners talking about burning 20+ cords per year to heat relatively modest spaces. 

The problem isn’t “boiler” or “wood”, it is the “outdoor”.

Then there is the intent of the owner, many or most who choose this route do it for the express purpose of being able to burn their wood without having to split it dry it.  That will not change, as long as OWB’s exist.


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## Ashful (Jul 29, 2019)

Bad LP said:


> That said I go by a rural place in the winter that has made their boiler portable. Yup, water lines on the ground going into the basement thru a cellar window. There is not a stick of wood to be found at the place all year until winter when a fresh pile is dumped on the ground next to the boiler. The smoke coming out of that thing is disgusting.


That description covers nearly 100% of those I see around here.


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## JRHAWK9 (Jul 29, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Due to line loss, short stacks, and other inefficiencies built into the very principle of locating the boiler outside of your heated envelope, they will always have lower net efficiency than the same tech built into an indoor boiler.



I've read that Europeans look at us Americans sideways when it comes to OWB's.  The little bit I know of OWB's, it's mainly an American thing.


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## Ashful (Jul 29, 2019)

JRHAWK9 said:


> I've read that Europeans look at us Americans sideways when it comes to OWB's.  The little bit I know of OWB's, it's mainly an American thing.



I’d bet the Canucks are with us, but I’m not surprised if you tell me they have no popularity in Europe, those guys have been dealing with a shortage of wood since before Colonial times.  In fact, I thought timber was one of the primary methods of funding colonization, if not a driver of it.


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## maple1 (Jul 29, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Due to line loss, short stacks, and other inefficiencies built into the very principle of locating the boiler outside of your heated envelope, they will always have lower net efficiency than the same tech built into an indoor boiler.  That is my primary issue with them, and why you often see their owners talking about burning 20+ cords per year to heat relatively modest spaces.
> 
> The problem isn’t “boiler” or “wood”, it is the “outdoor”.
> 
> Then there is the intent of the owner, many or most who choose this route do it for the express purpose of being able to burn their wood without having to split it dry it.  That will not change, as long as OWB’s exist.



Yes, there is certainly lots of things that people don't get right in OWB installs & operation.

Most of the people I know or know of do outdoor to get the mess & 'danger' (real or perceived) outside away from their living space. Stacks don't play much a part in efficiencies in new good ones - the chimney doesn't drive the combustion, fans do. Line loss would practically be a thing of the past if people use the proper piping & don't cheap out on it. That would still leave some stand by heat loss out the jacket, that has also been improved but no can't possibly be totally eliminated. Just as there are those who burn 20+ cords, there are also who have seen not a big increase going from inside to outside - as long as it is done right, with the right stuff. (And operated right, yes). They will never be as efficient as an indoor boiler done right, no. But the efficiency gap is getting smaller. And that efficiency difference might disappear all together if you factor in those who heat multiple buildings with one.  All hardly a reason for a ban. Local ordinances should be able to handle poorly performing nuisance operators - and yes, there are some of those almost everywhere.

(Written from an IWB preference perspective).


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## Ashful (Jul 29, 2019)

maple1 said:


> Yes, there is certainly lots of things that people don't get right in OWB installs & operation.
> 
> Most of the people I know or know of do outdoor to get the mess & 'danger' (real or perceived) outside away from their living space. Stacks don't play much a part in efficiencies in new good ones - the chimney doesn't drive the combustion, fans do. Line loss would practically be a thing of the past if people use the proper piping & don't cheap out on it. That would still leave some stand by heat loss out the jacket, that has also been improved but no can't possibly be totally eliminated. Just as there are those who burn 20+ cords, there are also who have seen not a big increase going from inside to outside - as long as it is done right, with the right stuff. (And operated right, yes). They will never be as efficient as an indoor boiler done right, no. But the efficiency gap is getting smaller. And that efficiency difference might disappear all together if you factor in those who heat multiple buildings with one.  All hardly a reason for a ban. Local ordinances should be able to handle poorly performing nuisance operators - and yes, there are some of those almost everywhere.
> 
> (Written from an IWB preference perspective).



Great post.  Thank you for that.


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## Bad LP (Jul 29, 2019)

JRHAWK9 said:


> I've read that Europeans look at us Americans sideways when it comes to OWB's.  The little bit I know of OWB's, it's mainly an American thing.



Where are many of the well known brands of boilers made/developed? Their energy costs are crazy expensive and I know in Italy strict controls are in place for electric appliances.


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## blades (Jul 29, 2019)

in my home area 9 out 10 places have owb's ( farm country) even though there is a total ban on them ( perhaps grandfathered? ) at any rate most are on farms but I have noticed a couple in  town centers  ( big towns may be a dozen or so homes  on either side if the main drag.)  Thought about it until I checked the posted regs. + it isn't particularly inexpensive to set one up.  Stuck a wood stove in the middle of the main floor - works for me. Furnace hardly runs all winter- but I will need to do something with the basement gets too cold down there to get any work done. Likely a pellet stove just  because they are a forced exhaust which gets away from the huge expense of a 30+ ft class A flue. I do not need it running 24/7.


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## Dmurph2016 (Jul 29, 2019)

I understand how people burn 20 cords a year and see how they are to blame them for being efficient and whatnot. From my reswevh seems like the newer gassers are a lot more efficent. There’s a house that I’d like to buy in a few years. Currently has a Owb a old central boiler. I just want to see what the options will be in the future if I buy the house and I need to replace the boiler.


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## maple1 (Jul 29, 2019)

Dmurph2016 said:


> I understand how people burn 20 cords a year and see how they are to blame them for being efficient and whatnot. From my reswevh seems like the newer gassers are a lot more efficent. There’s a house that I’d like to buy in a few years. Currently has a Owb a old central boiler. I just want to see what the options will be in the future if I buy the house and I need to replace the boiler.



I would expect to and budget for replacing the underground lines also. With good (not cheap) stuff.


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## brenndatomu (Jul 29, 2019)

IMO Central Boiler (or at least many of their dealers) is responsible for much of what's bad out there with how many people run their OWB's...they have spewed so much misinformation for SO MANY years now...more recently, they will give you the right information "officially", because they have to, but then turn around and give you the ole "but this is how I run mine" wink wink.
I'm not one for promoting big brother cracking down on peoples freedoms...but so many of these company's have done the bare minimum to get by for so long, and even now are still skirting the issues with things like "commercial bldg. use only" and "coal burner" loopholes...apparently somebody just needs to drop the hammer on 'em...


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## SpaceBus (Jul 30, 2019)

I know a guy with a really nasty OWB setup and his neighbor moved away because of it.


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## maple1 (Jul 30, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I know a guy with a really nasty OWB setup and his neighbor moved away because of it.



Ya, that's not good. If it was here & affecting me that way, I would go to my municipality and lodge a complaint. Not sure how well the situation would get fixed, but I would try that ahead of having to move. Unless there were other reasons at play that would add in to the decision to move.


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## SpaceBus (Jul 30, 2019)

maple1 said:


> Ya, that's not good. If it was here & affecting me that way, I would go to my municipality and lodge a complaint. Not sure how well the situation would get fixed, but I would try that ahead of having to move. Unless there were other reasons at play that would add in to the decision to move.



Perhaps there were, his burning habits did not change when his neighbor(s) moved out. The person in question basically bragged about being able to burn free wood and other garbage and not have to worry. He also burns 10+ cord every year and has no thermal storage.


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## Highbeam (Jul 30, 2019)

We’re on a slippery slope here. Is it burning 20 cords a year that is the problem? Then you had better limit house size so that nobody burns more than their fair share of fuel. I don’t think we should care at all about how much fuel is used. Instead, I hope that we regulate an emissions requirement first and an efficiency requirement second. 

Even house fossil fuel furnaces are similarly regulated. Further, they are regulated for size as well to somewhat match the house’s needs.

We regulate duct insulation values so the line losses to the owb can be regulated as well. 

I’m not a fan of banning owb as a device. Instead, what’s the evil thing about them that you’re trying to stop?


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## SpaceBus (Jul 30, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> We’re on a slippery slope here. Is it burning 20 cords a year that is the problem? Then you had better limit house size so that nobody burns more than their fair share of fuel. I don’t think we should care at all about how much fuel is used. Instead, I hope that we regulate an emissions requirement first and an efficiency requirement second.
> 
> Even house fossil fuel furnaces are similarly regulated. Further, they are regulated for size as well to somewhat match the house’s needs.
> 
> ...



It's not the amount of fuel burned, it's the amount of fuel wasted that's the issue. you can absolutely limit fuel, just like watering lawns is limited in places with drought conditions. That's not the point though, I agree.


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## Bad LP (Jul 30, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I know a guy with a really nasty OWB setup and his neighbor moved away because of it.



I probably would have ventilated it first long before I sold my house.


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## Ashful (Jul 30, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I know a guy with a really nasty OWB setup and his neighbor moved away because of it.



Got the same situation on the main road outside my development.  Neighbors have been feuding over it for years, maybe decades.  It creates an uncomfortable situation for those of us burning responsibly, that others may lump you in with that bozo, when they lodge a complaint or it generates some authoritative action.


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## Ashful (Jul 30, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> Is it burning 20 cords a year that is the problem?
> 
> Instead, what’s the evil thing about them that you’re trying to stop?


No, it’s their impact on their neighbors.  People have a right to expect they’ll not have to live downwind of a mess like this, when they buy a home or property in a rural or residential zone.  The obscene wood usage is simply an indicator of their horrendous efficiency, and a contributor to the problem. 

Highbeam, you know I’m just about the last person on this forum to start talking about moderation, or limiting usage.   [emoji41]


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## Highbeam (Jul 30, 2019)

Ashful said:


> No, it’s their impact on their neighbors.  People have a right to expect they’ll not have to live downwind of a mess like this, when they buy a home or property in a rural or residential zone.  The obscene wood usage is simply an indicator of their horrendous efficiency, and a contributor to the problem.
> 
> Highbeam, you know I’m just about the last person on this forum to start talking about moderation, or limiting usage.   [emoji41]



I do, fast cars and big homes for ashful and anybody else who wants them! I hope the real issue is not about having these freedoms but how to have them without hurting your neighbor.


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## SpaceBus (Jul 31, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> I do, fast cars and big homes for ashful and anybody else who wants them! I hope the real issue is not about having these freedoms but how to have them without hurting your neighbor.


I think every issue facing humans goes back to how we treat our neighbor.


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## salecker (Aug 1, 2019)

Bad LP said:


> I probably would have ventilated it first long before I sold my house.


Yes a few well placed chunks of lead should make it inoperable.


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## hondaracer2oo4 (Aug 2, 2019)

The landscape has changed as far as owb go. The epa made sweeping changes and started phase 2 in 2015. Any owb now produced for residentual wood use has to be phase 2 compliant meaning it meets the threshold limits set forth. They are independently tested by Intertek and certified. Take a look at the list here. https://19january2017snapshot.epa.gov/burnwise/list-qualified-hydronic-heaters_.html

I own a heatmaster G200 which actually meets the 2020 emissions standards. I have been running it for 3 full seasons. I went from a hardy h4( non compliant smoke dragon) burning 12-13 cords per year to +/-7 cords per year with no more smoke. It is extremely efficient. It is very simple to run, it does idle and will begin to gas in about 60 seconds after start up. Yes you need to use one of the big 3 foam insulated pipes(logstor, rehau or thermopex) to avoid ground water intrusion from a cracked casing. I personally own a 220 year old home that does not have a place for an indoor gasser with storage. The owb gasser landscape has changed, they are simple and easy to run and very effieicnt.


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## SpaceBus (Aug 3, 2019)

hondaracer2oo4 said:


> The landscape has changed as far as owb go. The epa made sweeping changes and started phase 2 in 2015. Any owb now produced for residentual wood use has to be phase 2 compliant meaning it meets the threshold limits set forth. They are independently tested by Intertek and certified. Take a look at the list here. https://19january2017snapshot.epa.gov/burnwise/list-qualified-hydronic-heaters_.html
> 
> I own a heatmaster G200 which actually meets the 2020 emissions standards. I have been running it for 3 full seasons. I went from a hardy h4( non compliant smoke dragon) burning 12-13 cords per year to +/-7 cords per year with no more smoke. It is extremely efficient. It is very simple to run, it does idle and will begin to gas in about 60 seconds after start up. Yes you need to use one of the big 3 foam insulated pipes(logstor, rehau or thermopex) to avoid ground water intrusion from a cracked casing. I personally own a 220 year old home that does not have a place for an indoor gasser with storage. The owb gasser landscape has changed, they are simple and easy to run and very effieicnt.



I wish other folks would be so considerate


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## Ashful (Aug 3, 2019)

hondaracer2oo4 said:


> The landscape has changed as far as owb go. The epa made sweeping changes and started phase 2 in 2015. Any owb now produced for residentual wood use has to be phase 2 compliant meaning it meets the threshold limits set forth. They are independently tested by Intertek and certified. Take a look at the list here. https://19january2017snapshot.epa.gov/burnwise/list-qualified-hydronic-heaters_.html
> 
> I own a heatmaster G200 which actually meets the 2020 emissions standards. I have been running it for 3 full seasons. I went from a hardy h4( non compliant smoke dragon) burning 12-13 cords per year to +/-7 cords per year with no more smoke. It is extremely efficient. It is very simple to run, it does idle and will begin to gas in about 60 seconds after start up. Yes you need to use one of the big 3 foam insulated pipes(logstor, rehau or thermopex) to avoid ground water intrusion from a cracked casing. I personally own a 220 year old home that does not have a place for an indoor gasser with storage. The owb gasser landscape has changed, they are simple and easy to run and very effieicnt.



This is great, but 7 cords is still nearly double the average used by those who heat with a wood stove.  Not criticizing you, maybe the house is large, but it’s always worth noting cords/sq.ft./HDD, when talking about overall system efficiency.


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## maple1 (Aug 3, 2019)

Ashful said:


> This is great, but 7 cords is still nearly double the average used by those who heat with a wood stove.  Not criticizing you, maybe the house is large, but it’s always worth noting cords/sq.ft./HDD, when talking about overall system efficiency.



And how much do you burn per year?


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## brenndatomu (Aug 3, 2019)

Ashful said:


> This is great, but 7 cords is still nearly double the average used by those who heat with a wood stove.  Not criticizing you, maybe the house is large, but it’s always worth noting cords/sq.ft./HDD, when talking about overall system efficiency.


HDDs would be needed if you wanted to crunch the nitty gritty numbers, but with having run an old school OWB long term, and now 3 years in on the G200, I'd say he has enough data to confidently say "I cut 5-6 cords per year (40% ish) just by switching to a gasifier"
That was a lot of wasted fuel, read: a lot less smoke.


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## hondaracer2oo4 (Aug 3, 2019)

Yes you are correct about naming all of the metrics involved. I am located in New Hampshire and am heating a 3000 sqft 220 year old home which is decently insulated with high quality Windows but a 220'year old house can only be so tight unless you went crazy. I have a Woodstock soapstone stove
As well that I use during the shoulder seasons and anything below 45 degrees outside It is almost
Useless due to heat loss. After three years of burning the g200 to compare to the conventional I can confidently say i have reduced wood use 40 percent. I doubt I could save more than one extra cord going to a gasser with storage and no idling. Look at the epa list and see what the g200 did compared to the whs1500 and 2000. It is impressive.


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## Ashful (Aug 3, 2019)

maple1 said:


> And how much do you burn per year?



I never claimed I was average.


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## Highbeam (Aug 4, 2019)

brenndatomu said:


> HDDs would be needed if you wanted to crunch the nitty gritty numbers, but with having run an old school OWB long term, and now 3 years in on the G200, I'd say he has enough data to confidently say "I cut 5-6 cords per year (40% ish) just by switching to a gasifier"
> That was a lot of wasted fuel, read: a lot less smoke.



Wasted fuel does not always mean extra smoke. It could just as easily mean wasted energy. I’ve certainly been exposed to very clean burning but inefficient stoves!


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## brenndatomu (Aug 4, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> Wasted fuel does not always mean extra smoke. It could just as easily mean wasted energy.


Good point...


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## Bad LP (Aug 4, 2019)

maple1 said:


> And how much do you burn per year?


Being in Philly probably not much.


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## Ashful (Aug 4, 2019)

Bad LP said:


> Being in Philly probably not much.


We are at only 5000 HDDs/year, surely below some of you.  But I burn ten cords of oak + 1000 gallons oil + several hundred dollars in electrons every year, thanks to the size and age of this house.


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## hondaracer2oo4 (Aug 4, 2019)

I also have a thermometer at the breach of the stack. Typical stack temps run 300-375 depending on wood, hours on current load etc.


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