# Oil Boiler Not Starting Up Smoothly On Cold Start



## velvetfoot (Feb 14, 2017)

It took a couple tries yesterday before it stayed on.  It's done this before.  It fires up but fluffs a few times and then shuts off.  Like it doesn't hold a flame, I imagine, and then it shuts down.  On the second start it held, however.  Could it be negative draft in the chimney pipe?  It was stone cold since I was using the other boiler.  Or could it be that I screwed something up when I replaced the target refractory and put in a nozzle and adjusted pump, per mfr's spec, for a lower output?  I'm pretty sure I got that right.  I also agonized somewhat about the electrodes position too, but it seems to ignite, just not hold.

The chimney pipe does get a lot of downdraft, and I also have an auto damper that keeps things cool in the chimney as well.

Maybe I'll try starting it when it's not stone cold and see what happens.


----------



## velvetfoot (Feb 16, 2017)

Well, I might have solved it...had one successful cold start.  Don't want to count my chickens though.
These are the things I did:
-replaced ignitor-that wasn't it
-replaced nozzle-that didn't seem to be it either since flame looked the same and the first nozzle was almost new
-replaced and regapped electrodes - I think that might have done it, although I'm not sure where the original gap was, but I think it was big-shoulda taken a 'before' pic

There was a slight hint of oil on top of the filter, and I tightened the nut
Also, not sure if the oil shutoff valve at the tank was totally open before I closed it for the above work-didn't seem like it took as many turns to close it as to open it back up-again, should've taken note of the 'before' state.


----------



## heat seeker (Feb 17, 2017)

Hope you got it - I've been watching to see how it works out.


----------



## velvetfoot (Feb 17, 2017)

Thanks.  It usually only runs once a day in the evening, so I'll probably report then.


----------



## velvetfoot (Feb 18, 2017)

2nd smooth start.


----------



## heat seeker (Feb 18, 2017)

You're on a roll! Fingers crossed here...


----------



## Brian26 (Feb 19, 2017)

You have air in the line. I dealt with the same cold start issues you are experiencing. It locked out on me when I was away on vacation and had to have my brother go reset it in the middle of the night so my pipes didn't freeze. I got an alert on my phone from my wifi t-stat that it was 45 degrees inside. Not fun..

My issue was I found a compression fitting on my oil filter coming off the tank that I suspect was letting air into the line. My solution was new fuel filter off the tank, new 3/8 copper line to a tigerloop oil dearator with 10 micron spin on filter. Problem solved.


----------



## velvetfoot (Feb 19, 2017)

3 smooth starts.


----------



## brenndatomu (Feb 19, 2017)

Lower output...so you put in a smaller nozzle? If so, did you adjust the air shutter?


----------



## velvetfoot (Feb 19, 2017)

brenndatomu said:


> Lower output...so you put in a smaller nozzle? If so, did you adjust the air shutter?


 A low fire rate baffle was added and the air shutter adjusted as specified.  CO2, soot, and draft were checked.


----------



## kennyp2339 (Feb 20, 2017)

Clean your CAT EYE


----------



## velvetfoot (Feb 20, 2017)

kennyp2339 said:


> Clean your CAT EYE


It was clean.
The thing 'chuffed' on startup until it lost enough flame that it shut down.


----------



## velvetfoot (Mar 6, 2017)

I





Brian26 said:


> You have air in the line. I dealt with the same cold start issues you are experiencing. It locked out on me when I was away on vacation and had to have my brother go reset it in the middle of the night so my pipes didn't freeze. I got an alert on my phone from my wifi t-stat that it was 45 degrees inside. Not fun..
> 
> My issue was I found a compression fitting on my oil filter coming off the tank that I suspect was letting air into the line. My solution was new fuel filter off the tank, new 3/8 copper line to a tigerloop oil dearator with 10 micron spin on filter. Problem solved.
> 
> ...



Brian,
Can I pick your brain a little?

I just watched it start up (had been using pellet boiler), and it did the same thing.  It ran for a little while and then stumbled, but rode through it.

I do believe there might be a bubble.

When I did my fall maintenance I COULD not get the spin on filter off.  I destroyed the thing.  I didn't want to risk twisting off the pipe, so I went to HD to pick up a new filter setup.  I wound up with a large drop in filter thing..a Fulflo copy by Westwood.

I've noticed that the fiber washer is weeping, very very slowly.  I went on to heatinghelp. com, and they seem to think the spin ons are better, but that might be mostly from ease of service.

What kind of filter did you have originally:  was it the drop in cartridge or spin on type?

Thanks.


----------



## cableman (Mar 6, 2017)

I saw your post over there. Maybe get the spin-on tiger loop setup.
I installed a new general and garber spin-on back to back at the tank. Cleaned the heck out of the petcock and line to general, lotta stuff in there over the last 38 years! 
Seems to be working good so far.


----------



## Brian26 (Mar 6, 2017)

velvetfoot said:


> I
> 
> Brian,
> Can I pick your brain a little?
> ...



From what I read the line is under suction/vacuum when the burner is running and air can get into a microscopic leak where it wont leak oil out but will draw in air. I guess when the air gets in and the burner shuts down and the line loses vacuum the air bubble expands greatly. Here's a link from Tigerloop explaining it. http://www.westwoodproducts.com/images/tigerloop_is_reliability_us.pdf

I originally had just one of those old general canister felt filters at the tank with a 3/8 line right to the burner.  I installed a new felt canister filter at the tank then ran a 3/8 line with compression fittings to the tigerloop that had the 10 micron spin on filter built into it. I read the 2 filter setup is best as the cheap $2 felt cartridge one gets the big chunks and sludge out and then it goes down the line to the 10 micron spin on. 

I spent so much time messing with fittings and the filter on the original setup trying to figure out where the air was getting in. I just did the above install and have been running 100 percent all winter. Total parts was less than $200. The tigerloop claims to also preheat the oil for much smoother starts which I did verify it does with my flir imager. Another thing I love about it is never having to touch the bleeder during service ever again. Its not fun hooking up hoses and bleeding manually. Especially when it makes your whole basement smell like fuel oil.


----------



## Brian26 (Mar 6, 2017)

cableman said:


> I saw your post over there. Maybe get the spin-on tiger loop setup.
> I installed a new general and garber spin-on back to back at the tank. Cleaned the heck out of the petcock and line to general, lotta stuff in there over the last 38 years!
> Seems to be working good so far.
> 
> ...



That's pretty much the same setup I did. Let the cheap felt filter catch the big stuff and sludge and then it goes to the 10 micron filter. According to all the pros that is the best setup. Many say nozzles can last for years as just about nothing can get to the nozzle.


----------



## cableman (Mar 6, 2017)

Brian26 i saw your post over there too, they said tiger loop for you was over kill! 
Their mean over there lol i had a hard time finding someone that wanted to tune my boiler with a combustion analyzer, theres only one Guy on that site thats local to me and he never got back to me, one was saying i must of done something to steer them away!


----------



## velvetfoot (Mar 6, 2017)

Thanks  Brian and cableman.
Yeah, I got one meaningful reply over there, and I tried to be as personable as I could, within my capability.  
In the past I had no problem on startup, as I can recall, with the Garber spin on but I didn't do the changing.
In the past I have had problems changing oil filters on cars, and found that a fluted filter end cap wrench worked best-I'm gonna look for that on any new spin on that I may or may not get.
I wonder if the spin on filters for heating fuel have a bypass in them like I recall car filters did/do?  I wouldn't think that would be good for this application, would it?


----------



## cableman (Mar 7, 2017)

I believe the general is a bypass and the spin-on is not.
http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/94083/oil-filter-question


----------



## velvetfoot (Mar 7, 2017)

Thanks cableman.


----------



## velvetfoot (Mar 10, 2017)

I just replaced the element in the Westwood F80 filter, which I guess is similar to an F4, along with new fiber washers.  It started real smooth no hiccup at all.  Thing is, I'm still getting a tiny bit of weepage at the large fiber washer.  I have no idea how hard to crank on it.  I wonder if this might be the source of any possible air entrainment?


----------



## Brian26 (Mar 11, 2017)

velvetfoot said:


> I just replaced the element in the Westwood F80 filter, which I guess is similar to an F4, along with new fiber washers.  It started real smooth no hiccup at all.  Thing is, I'm still getting a tiny bit of weepage at the large fiber washer.  I have no idea how hard to crank on it.  I wonder if this might be the source of any possible air entrainment?



Probably is. Are you referring to the air bleed screw on the top of the Westwood filter? 

My advice is to just drop the money on the Tigerloop with spin on filter and be done with it. I would also redo the fuel lines as well. 

Would you trust it now to run if you were away on vacation? I travel a lot and having a reliable oil burner to keep the pipes from freezing was extremely important to me. Mine has run hundreds of hours since I did the work with zero issues. 

Also, you might want to look into purchasing your own combustion analyzer. UEI has one for $300 that has a 5 year sensor warranty that I have been using. Going rate for a service around here is 220$ so the payback is quick and you now the job was done right.


----------



## cableman (Mar 11, 2017)

Hey velvet, couple weeks ago i noticed that top felt washer was weeping on my general also, i just cranked on it some more and it stopped. Looking at the design i believe you can go pretty tight with out breaking anything.


----------



## velvetfoot (Mar 12, 2017)

I think I might have finally stopped it, but now the gasket area is leaking.  Can it actually leak around the gasket?  Maybe cranking too much on the bolt doesn't help?

There's a possibility it could be coming from the inlet to the filter, but I don't know.  That'll be great if I try to fix that:  orient the filter vertically-maybe put some tape on it so it seals when vertical.


----------



## velvetfoot (Mar 12, 2017)

Brian26 said:


> Also, you might want to look into purchasing your own combustion analyzer. UEI has one for $300 that has a 5 year sensor warranty that I have been using. Going rate for a service around here is 220$ so the payback is quick and you now the job was done right.


I already bought the Bacharach old school liquid type last fall, but that's a pretty good deal.  I wonder how much a sensor is (I'm assuming for CO2)?


----------



## velvetfoot (Mar 12, 2017)

Brian26 said:


> Probably is. Are you referring to the air bleed screw on the top of the Westwood filter?


That went away quick with a little tightening.


----------



## Brian26 (Mar 18, 2017)

I was just thinking about somet


velvetfoot said:


> That went away quick with a little tightening.



How you making out with this?

Another thing you can try is put a smaller nozzle in and turn up the pump pressure. I am running mine with a much smaller nozzle with higher pump pressure. Supposedly the fuel atomizes way better so you get smoother starts and a much better burn. There is a chart for this and make sure you check your burner for the max allowed pressure. Mine was rated up to 200 psi where 120-140 is the standard pressure. I think I am running it at 160 or 175 with a much smaller nozzle than the recommended larger one with lower pressure.


----------



## velvetfoot (Mar 18, 2017)

I went with the specs for the low firing rate. 65k?  It was lower psi with the smaller nozzle, as I recall.  I even put in the low firing rate baffle Beckett recommends.  I'm not going to experiment with that stuff.

It behaved just like there was a bubble in the line.

It seems to be coming around the rubber gasket now, lol.
I check periodically, but then my finger gets dieselly smelling, lol.


----------



## Brian26 (Mar 18, 2017)

velvetfoot said:


> I went with the specs for the low firing rate. 65k?  It was lower psi with the smaller nozzle, as I recall.  I even put in the low firing rate baffle Beckett recommends.  I'm not going to experiment with that stuff.
> 
> It behaved just like there was a bubble in the line.
> 
> ...



Not sure what your exact setup is but these style filters are all pretty much universal. They all have 3/8 fittings inlet and outlet and the filters are universal and come with new gaskets. I picked this General 1a25a up at Home Depot when I replaced my old one for like $22. I would try a new filter and gasket kit and if that doesn't work I would just replace the whole thing. Did you oil the gaskets up before installing them? I think your supposed to.  Besides being smelly and dirty it should only take a few minutes to spin the old one off and new one on.


----------



## velvetfoot (Mar 19, 2017)

Here is a picture.  I tried a new filter and gaskets earlier.  It sounds stupid, but I have trouble seeing where the seeping starts, and there may be multiple leaks and ones I fix, etc. It flows down the filter, etc, etc.  I might even have one on the underside of the filter outlet, but as I said, it's hard to tell.  I might try a mirror to see better.  

I like your explanation that during operation, air is sucked though a fitting in small amounts and then coalesces into a bigger bubble during downtime.  I think I'm going to switch over to oil,let it run and observe some startups.


----------



## brenndatomu (Mar 19, 2017)

velvetfoot said:


> I have trouble seeing where the seeping starts, and there may be multiple leaks and ones I fix, etc. It flows down the filter, etc, etc. I might even have one on the underside of the filter outlet, but as I said, it's hard to tell. I might try a mirror to see better


Here's a little trick for hard to find leaks...clean things up real good with some rubbing alcohol. Then spray possible leak areas with some spray deodorant, it will leave a dry powder film that shows leaks pretty well...bonus, it smells a lot better than fuel oil!


----------



## velvetfoot (Mar 19, 2017)

Thanks.  I'm a stick deodorant guy, so I'd have to go out and buy a spray can.
The epoxy finish on the filter, is very smooth and almost feels oily.


----------



## velvetfoot (Mar 23, 2017)

There was another rough start after one or two smooth ones and some time off while the pellet boiler assumed the load. 
There is still some weepage around the big fiber washer.
I think at some point I'm going to change out to the spin on filter.
I never had this problem with the spin on.
I like the drop in, but I'm going to have to get used to only tightening the spin on the specified amount, since they can be real hard to remove.


----------



## brenndatomu (Mar 23, 2017)

velvetfoot said:


> I'm going to have to get used to only tightening the spin on the specified amount, since they can be real hard to remove.


One trick to easy (er) removal of any spin on filter is to fully tighten it, give it a little more, then back it off just a touch. This sets the oring seal with "the grain" (probably not a good way to describe it) in the right direction for removal...and no I've never had one come loose doing this (I'm talkin automotive here now, obviously a furnace filter wouldn't normally vibrate loose)


----------



## velvetfoot (Mar 23, 2017)

I never heard of that.  Sounds like it might work.  I always put some oil on the ring.  I think the key is putting it on yourself.  Also, on a car, I used a filter wrench that went on the end with flutes, but access was usually tight.


----------



## cableman (Mar 23, 2017)

￼ 
Man thats just crazy you cant get that to stop weeping. 
I have a general style one you can have, cleaned it up all nice! Never leaked.
I took this off when i installed the double filter setup.







￼


----------



## velvetfoot (Mar 23, 2017)

cableman said:


> ￼
> Man thats just crazy you cant get that to stop weeping.
> I have a general style one you can have, cleaned it up all nice! Never leaked.
> I took this off when i installed the double filter setup.
> ...


Hey, thanks.  I'm going to try a spin on.  I have one on the shelf already, so I might as well.  I have a gauge for it as well, but not sure if that's worth it.


----------



## velvetfoot (Mar 24, 2017)

Here's the new setup.  I had, hopefully past tense, a leak at the flare...realigned and tightened, not before getting a little oil on the toe of a boot. ugh.  I still dread the day I'll have to remove.  
edit:  it's running...zero psi suction.


----------



## cableman (Mar 24, 2017)

Nice! The vac gauge on mine hits the bolt on the bracket so i can only use 1 bolt! Kinda odd as its a kit i bought. Your bolt holes are diagonal where mine are straight, that's prolly the issue on mine.


----------



## velvetfoot (Mar 24, 2017)

Yeah, but yours probably doesn't almost hit the floor, lol.


----------



## velvetfoot (Apr 22, 2017)

The spin on filter seems to have done the trick.
Hopefully, it'll come off when it comes time.


----------



## Brian26 (Jan 21, 2018)

Brian26 said:


> You have air in the line. I dealt with the same cold start issues you are experiencing. It locked out on me when I was away on vacation and had to have my brother go reset it in the middle of the night so my pipes didn't freeze. I got an alert on my phone from my wifi t-stat that it was 45 degrees inside. Not fun..
> 
> My issue was I found a compression fitting on my oil filter coming off the tank that I suspect was letting air into the line. My solution was new fuel filter off the tank, new 3/8 copper line to a tigerloop oil dearator with 10 micron spin on filter. Problem solved.
> 
> ...



Got an oil delivery a couple weeks ago. Saw my vacuum gauge went up a little a week or two later. It had been about a year since I replaced the filters and figured the delivery stirred the tank so I decided to change them.  Replaced the crappy wool filter at the tank. Had a bunch of sludge and junk in it. The spin also had a ton of sludge debris up top. Here is proof those crappy woold canister filters let a ton of stuff pass through. The spin on had a ton of sludge debris on the top. I imagine the inside element was loaded up. I have read these 10 micron filters keep the nozzles spotless and people report going years on the same nozzle. I plan on replacing it next year but figured I would let it go until next falls service. I have all the equipment including the a combustion analyzer and everything checks out perfect. 

Still running good velvetfoot?


----------



## velvetfoot (Jan 23, 2018)

Brian26 said:


> Still running good velvetfoot?


Just saw this.
Yes.  Put about .6 tank through it this winter.  The glass on my insert cracked a few weeks ago so I've been running other stuff more while waiting for replacement (just came in yesterday).  Have been running the pellet boiler lately just because.

 On oil boiler:  Back pressure still low.  No leakage.  Smooth start.


----------



## velvetfoot (Jan 23, 2018)

You know, it occurred to me that there's no bleed screw on my setup.  I guess the gauge takes its place.  Any need to prime the filter, or will running the boiler pump to prime work okay?


----------



## fbelec (Jan 24, 2018)

by just running the pump in all the cases i've worked on will not self prime


----------



## Brian26 (Jan 27, 2018)

velvetfoot said:


> You know, it occurred to me that there's no bleed screw on my setup.  I guess the gauge takes its place.  Any need to prime the filter, or will running the boiler pump to prime work okay?



I have never tried it as I have a tigerloop on my setup. I read you can power bleed by shutting the tank valve off and the pump will pull a vacuum and bleed out the air. Might be worth a try.


----------



## cableman (Jan 27, 2018)

I unscrewed the gauge and blead mine that way.


----------



## Justin_DeSilva (Dec 17, 2019)

Hey everyone,
Thanks for sharing. It took me several days to find an article with an image of two filters in series. (Thanks cableman)

I'm not having any problems relating to starting but am preparing for an annual cleaning and service. I'm intentionally replying to this thread instead of starting another becuase I hoped the contributors in the thread would receive notifications via email. Would any of you mind sharing feedback on these questions?

1. Presently I have a simple setup with 1 spin-on type filter at the tank. Should I consider adding another filter in this order?
Tank > Shut off valve > Firomatic valve > Cartridge Filter > Spin-on filter

2. The big challenge here is the fuel line would need to be lengthened with a flare union. Presently it's sleeved and above the cement floor but buried under a concrete berm. If looking closely you'll also see a kink near the fitting. Should I cut and add 2 feet to the line and create a strain relief loop? (Didn't know if this is okay or against code)

FYI: The fluid on the floor is water, not oil. The bloaks who installed the sump and perimeter drain cut around the tank instead of following the wall. It was done before we bought the home.


----------



## Brian26 (Dec 17, 2019)

Justin_DeSilva said:


> Hey everyone,
> Thanks for sharing. It took me several days to find an article with an image of two filters in series. (Thanks cableman)
> 
> I'm not having any problems relating to starting but am preparing for an annual cleaning and service. I'm intentionally replying to this thread instead of starting another becuase I hoped the contributors in the thread would receive notifications via email. Would any of you mind sharing feedback on these questions?
> ...



That filter looks like it hasnt been replaced in years or got wet and rusted. Why mess with any of it or the fittings if its not leaking? Why not just put on a  new spin on filter and be done? All it takes is a pinhole leak at a fitting to start pulling air into the line and the burner to lock out. A single 10 micron filter will pretty much stop anything from reaching the nozzle. They are easy and inexpensive to change.  They are also 10 times less messy than those yarn filters to replace.


----------



## velvetfoot (Jan 6, 2020)

Mine is still there.  Vacuum gauge still looks good.  I'm sure the filter will be hard to remove, although I was the one who torqued it on so it might not be so bad.   I'm paranoid about touching any of it-the stuff of nightmares.


----------



## Justin_DeSilva (Jan 10, 2020)

Brian26 said:


> That filter looks like it hasnt been replaced in years or got wet and rusted. Why mess with any of it or the fittings if its not leaking? Why not just put on a  new spin on filter and be done? All it takes is a pinhole leak at a fitting to start pulling air into the line and the burner to lock out. A single 10 micron filter will pretty much stop anything from reaching the nozzle. They are easy and inexpensive to change.  They are also 10 times less messy than those yarn filters to replace.


I replaced the tank filter with a *GARBER 2605*  ($10) and the burner filter with a new *Suntec* *3715732-HK *($2.25)*. *I didn't think the *2630* with water block was worth the extra $13. For now we'll leave the system as is. Thanks for your replies.


----------

