# Why are gasification boilers mostly found in the Northeast?



## hdivr (May 10, 2010)

I've been looking into various wood boilers such as Atmos, EKO, Econoburn, Greenwood, etc.  and what I have found is that most sellers/dealers are in the Northeast, especially around NY, Connecticut, etc.   Why hasn't gasification technology made it to the Midwest?  I know of several OWB made in my area of the country including Hardy, Central, etc but you would have to have a gasification boiler shipped cross country.

Is it because wood fuel is so expensive in the Northeast and people are rightly getting the most energy from their wood?  Everyone I know has one version or another of these smoke monsters.  And yet, there purchase price is on par if not more than an Atmos/Econoburn.  Maybe it is because of their air quality laws?  

I'd love to see one of these gasification boilers up close but there are no dealers to be found.   I've seen some great videos of the Econoburn/Vigas etc on the net.  

Maybe the word just hasn't filtered down to us yet.....


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## benjamin (May 10, 2010)

One reason is that hot water heat is much more common in the northeast with their older housing stock.  The midwest has far more forced air systems, hence the owb with an indoor coil.  Another reason is that several of the early pioneers were from the northeast, so that is where the companies are.  Also, the coast always have more imported goods and a lot of the gassification boilers now come from Europe.


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## tom in maine (May 10, 2010)

Smarter People?!


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## WoodNotOil (May 10, 2010)

I had this discussion with a few of the dealers at the NE expo this weekend and speculation was that burning corn is big in the mid-west and that on the west coast they have some very strict laws and restrictions.  It is territory they are looking at though for the future.  There are some dealers in Michigan and several in Penn.  OWBs have expanded nation wide and gasifiers are spreading faster now with public opinion turning on the OWB.


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## Chris Hoskin (May 10, 2010)

In the NE we have several things that result in gasifiers being here:  
* long history of wood burning - remember, Vermont Castings, HearthStone and Jotul all started here and are still here.
* lots of wood
* the typical heating system is oil fired boiler with hot water baseboard distribution.  Oil is expensive so people are looking for alternatives and gasifiers are boilers so an easy fit
* once you get outside of the NE, you start to run into almost all natural gas (cheap) fired forced hot air systems.

We are starting to make inroads into the mid-West, but one of the limiting factors is that there are few hydronics contractors.  This has been improving over the last decade or so as radiant floors have become popular.  The OWB folks have done a good job of targeting the forced air market.

Chris


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## Jackpine Savage (May 10, 2010)

Tom in Maine said:
			
		

> Smarter People?!



Some seem to think that they are.


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## DaveBP (May 10, 2010)

> Smarter People?!
> 
> 
> Some seem to think that they are.




And judging from some of the statements some of us have made on this forum, we obviously are not. 

Sometimes.


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## webbie (May 10, 2010)

I'd go with the theory that boilers are much more common - and add the Yankee Mentality and Weather. 

It would be, however, a very true statement to say that many New Englanders are smarter than the average bear.

VT, MA, CT and Maine constantly lead the pack as far as "smartest states" ranking. Even lowly NY ends up in the top 30% or so.

Of course, the fact that many New Englanders bought pellets stoves before they were reliable....and before fuel was commonly available, shows a certain adventurous spirit that some may call "dumb". 

The Yankee mentality covers a lot. That is everything from:
1. I am destined to work hard and it is good for the soul (Puritan and Protestant ethic).
2. I'd rather spend money on less flashy "real" things instead of a fancy car.
3. My dad burned wood
4. I'd spend $10K to save $100.
5. Joe told me it was good, and Joe is the man.
6. Yeah, I went to Harvard or Yale, but now I live in a shack and am close to the land. 

Maybe natives can add something to the mix.....


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## Fred61 (May 10, 2010)

As Chris said "long history of wood burning". Why? The Northeast is more dependent on oil than any other part of the country. Most do not have access to natural gas so we are held prisoner by the oil cartel. The Northeast is the largest stand of hardwood in the United States which makes wood-burning almost a way of life. People in the middle U.S equate a cold winter with lots of snow. Here in Vermont it can get too cold to snow. There are people here that are heating the same way the founders did (wood) and never have burned fossil fuels.


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## benjamin (May 10, 2010)

Good point about the prevalence of oil heat and the availability of natural gas in the rest of the country.  If you have natural gas available at a third the price of oil and a lot simpler equipment also, then the alternatives are much less attractive.  Many in the midwest who used oil or propane went to owb's or indoor wood add on furnaces that you can buy at Menards for well under a grand.  In many places, if you have $20k you don't buy a wood heater, you retire. 

As far as smarter people, I have a cousin who was once asked to unplug an electric fencer, came back near tears, said "I tried to unplug it but it hurt too much!", later went to one of them Ivy leagues and six years later became a lawyer out there.  Take it for what you want as to the brains of lawyers and dairy farmers.


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## webie (May 10, 2010)

I be in Wisconsin and there are plenty around here that have hot water heat . And there are plenty that heat with wood boilers . I do beleave that in the north east you have more homes with hot water heat than in the midwest because when forced air came about that was the rage here instead of hot water or steam  and also people could have central air . Most of all of our older farm homes and older city homes are all hot water  . Also there were a number of manufactures here in the midwest of boilers  , It kinda seemed to fit in with the steel works and great lakes ship building . Menominee and steal king are in the top of my head right now and I know there were more . Alot of these boilers are still in operation . Insurance killed a lot of the replacements and everyone ran for the outside boiler  ,I could show you at least 20 of them with in a 2 mile circle of my house . I drive past 5 of them just to cut my fire wood 3 miles away .  Also the imports came in on the east coast and never made it this far . Why buy an import when you can buy one built in the next county . 
 Gasification , ( Whats that ?) All anyone cared about was it burnt wood . I for one when I bought mine I knew nothing about gasification . I needed a bigger boiler and I shopped on the internet . As far as I know I was the second one in the state to have a tarm solo .  I was lucky to have a grandfather clause in my homeowners insurance so I could burn wood inside , many others insurances were being discontinued or such a premium was tagged on they  quit burning or went to outside burning .


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## Jackpine Savage (May 10, 2010)

The upper midwest is right up there in the 'smartest state' ranking too. Of course Minnesota has jebaty, that definitely skews us higher. 

Just lately we seem to be having an influx of northeasterners, especially New Yorkers, buying farms around here. The ones I've talked to said they were trying to escape high property taxes and excessive regulation. I wonder what that portends for the 'smart state' ranking . 

I'll agree with Benjamin. Forced air is the most common around here. Our rural areas went from wood to oil and from there either to electric or propane (natural gas in the city). Our electric rates are low compared to the NE and for awhile all electric homes (baseboard) were pretty common. 

I do appreciate you folks in the NE sharing your expertise and technology with us bumpkins .


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## Birdman (May 10, 2010)

I think the relationship the northeast has to Europe has something to do with it... as quickly mentioned before. There has been a longstanding(1620's-present) relationship there. Good and Bad. The products... trade.... imports exports.... goes on regardless of time. It is due to the connection. 

However... now that internet is here.... maybe I am wrong.


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## mike1234 (May 10, 2010)

So where is this NE anyway?  I keep looking on a map and can't find NE, except for Nebraska and you aren't from Nebraska - no trees.  
Anyway here is Kansas, we gots some trees, and we gots some expensive propane, so we need some of them salespeoples to sell us some gasification furnaces. 

But on a much more serious note, all you NE's help put the present idiot in the White House - how smart can you really be? (OK, so we helped put the previous idiot in the white house, WE'RE EVEN).

And that's all I got to say about that.


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## webbie (May 10, 2010)

mike1234 said:
			
		

> But on a much more serious note, all you NE's help put the present idiot in the White House - how smart can you really be? (OK, so we helped put the previous idiot in the white house, WE'RE EVEN).
> 
> And that's all I got to say about that.


Even?
We ain't that dumb.
8 years and a couple of decades of after effects against 1 1/4 years.

Remember, it was US who made the good deal with the Indians on Manhattan. We ain't gonna let no Midwesterner talk us into thinking your example is an even deal.

Beside, the new Home Star legislation is about to go through, so big O will be helping all of us get these efficient boilers for less (income redistribution).


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## Piker (May 10, 2010)

This thread has started down a course that could get out of hand very quickly.  

Just sayin'

cheers


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## Fred61 (May 10, 2010)

It's great to be on the receiving end of income redistribution!


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## benjamin (May 11, 2010)

Piker said:
			
		

> This thread has started down a course that could get out of hand very quickly.
> 
> Just sayin'
> 
> cheers



They're still sore about Reagan (or was it some roofer schmuck) tearing the solar panels off the white house as soon as he got into office (or was it 1985).  Carter's tax credits were the worst thing that ever happened to energy conservation and renewable energy, but now Obama has a chance to do one better.


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## benjamin (May 11, 2010)

I mentioned that most of the early pioneers in wood gasification boilers were in the NE. According to a University of Wisconsin Extension publication "rural home heating trends" from 1983 the "Jetstream" and "Tempest" were designed by a Professor Hill at the University of Maine, as far as I know this was before the Europeans got into gasification (in any case it was quickly copied one way or the other). 

In the upper midwest, OWB, indoor wood furnaces, or stoves have been more common than indoor wood boilers, at least since the 70's. There were/are lots of old cast boilers originally fueled by wood or coal that were converted to fuel oil or gas, but when the energy crisis hit, it was far more common (and cheaper) to add a wood furnace than a new welded steel boiler. Kickapoo and Humble were two small manufacturers around here.

The previously mentioned UWEX publication favored the Alten Garn, made in MN, as its most cost effective choice, because of the storage eliminating the need for backup fuel use. Apparently not many people spent the $7,200 estimated price, but out of a similar school of thought emerged the famous Outdoor Wood Boiler. Scandalous, could it be that the Garn is the redheaded stepcousin of the OWB? They both have the capacity to heat a drafty old farmhouse, and the advantage of being able to dump the wood close to the unit with whatever machine is used to haul the wood. 

In WI, I would guess that there are 40-100 or more OWBs for every Garn, Eko etc. and about as many Kickapoo, Humble, Ashley, Yukon etc. still in use as there are OWBs.


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## mike1234 (May 11, 2010)

Webmaster said:
			
		

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Very funny - good answer.  But you should be ashamed of taking advantage of the Indians, we treated them so well out here in the midwest.

I think with some new math, we should be able to get 1.25=8.  It's gonna take some figerin.  Something about the amount spent in 1.25 is greater than the amount spent in 8 ......  12,000,000,000,000 X 1.25 = ......    calculator overheated, this is going to take some time, so'll I'll have to get back to you with my equations later.

In the meantime, just to stay on task, what would it take to be a rep for the gasifiers in the midwest?


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## WoodNotOil (May 11, 2010)

benjamin said:
			
		

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In all fairness IMHO it is the constant pendulum swing of our government from party to party that is responsible for our lack of progress in this area.  From my understanding of it, the innovations of the late 70s, which were often funded by government dollars, were bought up by some of the Euro countries once the funding in the US dried up and they now lead the world in areas of like wind etc.  Whether it was right or wrong to fund these innovations with government money to begin with in my mind is missing the point entirely.  What we need is a consistent effort at this over time and not to lose momentum based on partisanship.  The fear is not that we are investing in the wrong things right now, but rather that in another 3 or 7 years everything we have done will go to waste once again...


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## Birdman (May 11, 2010)

I'm going to do a " write-in" for WoodnotOil for president. I wonder if the tree's are into politics? Grok on.


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## WoodNotOil (May 11, 2010)

Birdman said:
			
		

> I'm going to do a " write-in" for WoodnotOil for president. I wonder if the tree's are into politics? Grok on.



Thanks for the vote of confidence   I wonder if wood gasification is a broad enough platform to run an effective campaign...?


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## Chris Hoskin (May 11, 2010)

this is my current Favorite Thread!  Lovin' it!


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## ihookem (May 12, 2010)

In Wisconsin we make OWB all over. I know of one gassifier dealer in 100 mi. A Wood Gun dealer. I am most likely the only gasifier owner in in the county. I don't know any one else that has a gasifier except the Wood Gun dealer 25 mi. away. Also, didn't our new president just bail out Greece with a 1,000,000,000,000 dollars? Not to smart if he really did it.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (May 12, 2010)

In the NY part of the NE, we pride ourselves in paying too much for everything. The simple fact that most of our homes have basements compared to the midwest/South/West lack thereof increases construction costs. It's actually funny to hear people from anywhere outside the NE complain about taxes. They'd die if they paid what we pay. And we just keep wearing it like a badge of honor.

Personally, I can't understand why houses in other regions - especially those built on slabs - have not gone to radiant heat. When we were under construction and only heating a ~1,200[] basement floor, all we used was a 40 gal propane hot water heater.

As far as politics go . . . anyone that thinks that this party, or that party, or this guy, or that gal, is gonna 'fix' anything is delusional. These people come from us. Generally selfish, proud dummies.


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## mike1234 (May 12, 2010)

WoodNotOil said:
			
		

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I think if you use the word gasification much in your campaign it might be used against you, as in - don't vote him in he will stink up the white house.


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## webie (May 12, 2010)

[quote author="ihookem" date="1273643780"]In Wisconsin we make OWB all over. I know of one gassifier dealer in 100 mi. A Wood Gun dealer. I am most likely the only gasifier owner in in the county. 








 I feel your loneliness. Hey neighbor I am in Calumet county , heck we must only be about what 50-60 miles apart  or about a hundred OWB's


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## benjamin (May 12, 2010)

WoodNotOil said:
			
		

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Agreed, the pendulum swing of government is detrimental to progress. Also detrimental is the notoriously bad reputation for reliability, financial payback, and effectiveness of renewable energy that the Carter tax credit mania created. Aside from the politically vulnerable publicity stunt on Pennsylvania Avenue, I don't think government agents or political operatives were responsible for wasting the progress of the 70's, I think the technologies stood or failed on their own merit. This mania IS being repeated as we speak, and is an unavoidable consequence of government intervention. The credits go to complex, isolated systems because that's what is easiest for a bureaucrat to calculate the credit for, not because that is what is most cost effective, reliable or effective. 

Bush and the Saudis were the best thing to happen to renewable energy (kinda like wolves and deer? or in this case fat cats and patchouli mice?). The renewable industry has had the time to evolve into something respectable, and more importantly EFFICIENT, because people were paying for it themselves. The worst systems of the 70's have disappeared and passive solar and conservation measures gained the respect they deserve, along with better solar hot water and PV systems. 

Now we have a new mania in swing, with tax credits for new cars, new HYBRID cars, new homes, new fridges, high tech-low efficiency renewables and I can't wait to see what's next. I'm seeing more and more questionable solar systems being installed-shaded, way too long of runs, on houses with no hope. We'll see what this does to the industry long term. 

This actually does relate to gasification boilers in that they are both a long term investment with a relatively low payback. Maybe Europeans and Northeasterners are just more willing to make these sort of investments. In seems that in this country since the late 90's most people have been more likely to invest in the 90's versions of shag carpeting and rec rooms than insulation or heating equipment, and the reason was pretty straightforward, payback. Throw down some shag, oops I mean granite and bamboo, and you get money from the fannie and freddie ATM, whereas money spent on efficiency was gone, only to be recovered at 5-20% a year. Pretty simple calculation right, 150% return on investment vs 20%. 

There really were some good technologies to come out of the research of the 70's. If anyone is still reading and is not familiar with sand bed thermal storage, check out radiantec.com and find their DOE paper from that era. This is a solar heating scheme that is state of the art and could easily have a wood boiler tied into it. Also check out Annualized Geo Solar for something a little farther out there.

Thank God for Al Gore inventing the internet, eh? I say we throw him in a volcano in thanks.


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## ihookem (May 13, 2010)

Speaking of sand thermal storage, I've been thinking. What if I put a hx in the middle of a 55 gal. drum and filled it with sand? I wonder how that would work in the basement? How many btu's would it store? I don't know maybe I'm nuts.


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## benjamin (May 13, 2010)

Sand and pretty much everything else besides water has about one fifth or 20% of the heat capacity of water.  Given the greater weight of sand that barrel would store about one quarter the equivelant amount of heat that water would store per degree temperature change.  Now if you were going to heat the sand to 1000 degrees it would have an advantage over water, but the biggest advantage of the sandbed storage is that it is huge and cheap.  There's no reason it has to be sand either, if your dirt compacts and doesn't smell when heated that would work also.


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