# Mt Vernon AE insert not heating the square footage as I would have thought (at all!!!!)



## afd_82 (Feb 17, 2014)

I have a 4 year old house well built chalet style home with loft and replaced a useless gas fire place with a quad mt Vernon insert. Now I'm not looking to heat my whole house (2000 sq feet total) but keep the front room warmer since it has 17 ft ceiling and the front room is 26x16. I understand heat rises, and have a nice hunter fan above the fire place, and a little heat will go into the loft but after installing this I can can't even get this room above 70, when I Bought this they said it's the biggest insert quad makes and I wanted the biggest and best I could buy due to the fact it's a focal point of my house and every one said how it will "roast me out". Quad says 1,300 - 2,900 sq ft. Can be heated by this stove and I use premium pellets, high btu and low ash. I have checked the thermostat and every thing looks right, and is on high heat, soft wood, 80 degrees manual and can't get this room above 70 with the ceiling fan on and 65 with no fan on. Hoping some one can help I'm just very upset on speeding 5 grand to not have this room any warmer then the forced hot air I use to use...... Thanks Shane


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## Harvey Schneider (Feb 17, 2014)

afd_82 said:


> I have a 4 year old house well built chalet style home with loft and replaced a useless gas fire place with a quad mt Vernon insert. Now I'm not looking to heat my whole house (2000 sq feet total) but keep the front room warmer since it has 17 ft ceiling and the front room is 26x16. I understand heat rises, and have a nice hunter fan above the fire place, and a little heat will go into the loft but after installing this I can can't even get this room above 70, when I Bought this they said it's the biggest insert quad makes and I wanted the biggest and best I could buy due to the fact it's a focal point of my house and every one said how it will "roast me out". Quad says 1,300 - 2,900 sq ft. Can be heated by this stove and I use premium pellets, high btu and low ash. I have checked the thermostat and every thing looks right, and is on high heat, soft wood, 80 degrees manual and can't get this room above 70 with the ceiling fan on and 65 with no fan on. Hoping some one can help I'm just very upset on speeding 5 grand to not have this room any warmer then the forced hot air I use to use...... Thanks Shane


We had this discussion last year.
What settings are you using? For maximum heat output put the thermostat/controller in manual mode and set the heat output to 5.
The heat output sets the feed rate. If you want to generate more heat you have to burn more pellets.
Automatic mode works well for milder weather, but there you have to use the flame height setting to control feed rate.


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## afd_82 (Feb 17, 2014)

It is on just that manual, 5....  so cold


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## tsmith (Feb 17, 2014)

Check and see if your convection blower is on quiet mode or normal mode, you want normal. Also, did you adjust your flame height as per the manual? It should give plenty of heat.


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## afd_82 (Feb 17, 2014)

tsmith said:


> Check and see if your convection blower is on quiet mode or normal mode, you want normal. Also, did you adjust your flame height as per the manual? It should give plenty of heat.



Yes it's on normal and the tec had adjusted the flame height for me and it is correct per manual.


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## Mt Bob (Feb 17, 2014)

How many windows,how many bags a day?


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## tsmith (Feb 17, 2014)

Ok, so you are on manual high 80 degrees, softwood pellet setting, normal blower. Is the flame burning high and do you feel good heat coming out from the blower? what is your flame height set at?


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## tsmith (Feb 17, 2014)

Also what is your temp differential set at and where is your thermostat located in relation to the stove? does the thermostat ever show that it is 80 degrees, or what is it telling you the current temp is?


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## tsmith (Feb 17, 2014)

What brand pellets are you burning?


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## afd_82 (Feb 17, 2014)

8 windows 2 doors with no problem when using Forced hot air


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## afd_82 (Feb 17, 2014)

I'm trying a few, just burnt 200 lbs of Vermont wood pellet going to try energex tonight.


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## hyfire (Feb 17, 2014)

Excuse my ignorance, but what is the btu rating of the insert?  You have a lot of window area, at night you will lose alot of heat, the R value of the glass is not very good compared to your walls I bet...unless they are double or triple pane windows...


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## Mt Bob (Feb 17, 2014)

hyfire said:


> Excuse my ignorance, but what is the btu rating of the insert?  You have a lot of window area, at night you will lose alot of heat, the R value of the glass is not very good compared to your walls I bet...unless they are double or triple pane windows...


 Yep huge heat loss,even high dollar windows.But depending on outside temp.would expect better.


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## afd_82 (Feb 17, 2014)

hyfire said:


> Excuse my ignorance, but what is the btu rating of the insert?  You have a lot of window area, at night you will lose alot of heat, the R value of the glass is not very good compared to your walls I bet...unless they are double or triple pane windows...




They are double pane but it's rated for 1300 to 2900 sq ft.  Door are just exterior doors.


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## Mt Bob (Feb 17, 2014)

Can you burn 2.5 or more bags in 24 hours?


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## afd_82 (Feb 17, 2014)

Right around 2+ bags maybe up to 2.5 I would guess


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## hyfire (Feb 17, 2014)

From the specs its 60k btu, it should roastu out of the room, something is wrong..you should be able to burn a 40lb bag in 5-1/2 hrs on high..


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## Mt Bob (Feb 17, 2014)

If you are burning that much,blower on high,1 foot or 2 in front of stove should be unbearable heat,if so,heat loss problem,if not,heat going up chimney,installation problem.Heck you should be able to cook in front of that stove.


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## afd_82 (Feb 17, 2014)

Sooooo what should I do?


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## Mt Bob (Feb 17, 2014)

How is the heat coming out the front?Was unit installed in a full chimney?Was chimney sealed inside?


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## hyfire (Feb 17, 2014)

Not sure if this helps you...


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## hyfire (Feb 17, 2014)

Make sure the vents behind the baffle are clean ...as in the video..


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## afd_82 (Feb 17, 2014)

I can clean it but only has had 200 lbs of pellets threw it.....


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## Harvey Schneider (Feb 17, 2014)

bob bare said:


> If you are burning that much,blower on high,1 foot or 2 in front of stove should be unbearable heat,if so,heat loss problem,if not,heat going up chimney,installation problem.Heck you should be able to cook in front of that stove.


I have measured 315 at the output of the convection blower when burning at heat output 5. It is uncomfortable to stand directly in front of the insert when loading pellets and the flame isn't as big as shown in the demo video above.
The insert heats my 1200 sq ft first floor even with 14 windows two doors and a slider (modified salt box design house). I keep the thermostat at 70 and the stove satisfies the thermostat setting even in sub zero weather.


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## Mt Bob (Feb 17, 2014)

Harvey Schneider said:


> I have measured 315 at the output of the convection blower when burning at heat output 5. It is uncomfortable to stand directly in front of the insert when loading pellets and the flame isn't as big as shown in the demo video above.
> The insert heats my 1200 sq ft first floor even with 14 windows two doors and a slider (modified salt box design house). I keep the thermostat at 70 and the stove satisfies the thermostat setting even in sub zero weather.


 That's inof trying to get from him.Good description.


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## hyfire (Feb 17, 2014)

Did you review the settings as the other members here suggested for your convection blower?


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## newf lover (Feb 17, 2014)

I'm not one of those smart, handy people on the forum, but I think bob bare pointed out possible installation problem. that would be my vote. Maybe if you describe your install to these guys they could help you.


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## boxedout (Feb 17, 2014)

My MVAE freestanding is in a similar sized room with a half cathedral ceiling, and when it's in the teens outside and 20's in the day I burn just over a bag, keeping the room at about 73-74 for 16 hours/day and dropping back only to about 70.  I keep the stove on automatic, flame height at 0.  1970's construction with only 2x4 walls and three 1980's skylights and only marginal casement double pane windows that leak a bit around the handles.  Based on that, something's not right in your situation, I'd say.  Time to call that installer back out...


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## chken (Feb 17, 2014)

afd_82 said:


> Right around 2+ bags maybe up to 2.5 I would guess


Your stove is capable of burning almost 4 bags in 24 hrs, so the good news is your stove is not maxed out. It still has untapped capacity to heat more and hopefully meet your needs.

BTW, what was your daily or monthly heating oil use before you got the insert? That'll give us an idea of how much BTUs you were trying to replace.

[edit]

I forgot to ask, did you reverse your ceiling fan? Does your lofted open space feel roughly even upstairs and down?


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## tjnamtiw (Feb 17, 2014)

afd_82 said:


> I can clean it but only has had 200 lbs of pellets threw it.....


200 pounds????  Do you mean since your last cleaning or since installation????


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## johnoutdoors (Feb 17, 2014)

tjnamtiw said:


> 200 pounds????  Do you mean since your last cleaning or since installation????


I took it to mean since installation.  My MVAE took 2 or 3 days to get the first floor warm throughout.  I haven't had it for too long, but the first few days I was wondering what was up with the poor output.  I came home from work on the 3rd day and was all of a sudden very impressed,  to the point of turning the oil heat off on the first floor.  I'm playing with it now to try heating the upstairs well enough to turn that thermostat off as well.

If you have only burned 5 bags, give it a day or two more before you hit the panic button.  There are a lot of cubic feet of air, especially with a chalet, to heat.  As others have said, make sure your ceiling fan is in winter mode.  Good luck and keep us up to date.


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## tjnamtiw (Feb 17, 2014)

johnoutdoors said:


> I took it to mean since installation.  My MVAE took 2 or 3 days to get the first floor warm throughout.  I haven't had it for too long, but the first few days I was wondering what was up with the poor output.  I came home from work on the 3rd day and was all of a sudden very impressed,  to the point of turning the oil heat off on the first floor.  I'm playing with it now to try heating the upstairs well enough to turn that thermostat off as well.
> 
> If you have only burned 5 bags, give it a day or two more before you hit the panic button.  There are a lot of cubic feet of air, especially with a chalet, to heat.  As others have said, make sure your ceiling fan is in winter mode.  Good luck and keep us up to date.


Yea, 200 pounds should have been burned in the first two days trying to figure out how to run it!  It's not panic mode yet.


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## john193 (Feb 18, 2014)

Ahh, the square footage really means very little. Your heating space should be assessed in cubic feet, since stoves don't heat 2 dimensions. With that said, it appears that if you have only burned 200 lbs of pellets and you are cold it sounds like you are babying the stove. At full blast that stove will burn almost 4 bags (160lbs) in 24 hours.


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## tjnamtiw (Feb 18, 2014)

john193 said:


> Ahh, the square footage really means very little. Your heating space should be assessed in cubic feet, since stoves don't heat 2 dimensions. With that said, it appears that if you have only burned 200 lbs of pellets and you are cold it sounds like you are babying the stove. At full blast that stove will burn almost 4 bags (160lbs) in 24 hours.


That's about $5x4 or $20 a day in pellets if you keep it blasting!  OMG! Natural Gas where are you???? 

Of course, hopefully, it will be moderated by the thermostat.


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## Harvey Schneider (Feb 18, 2014)

john193 said:


> Ahh, the square footage really means very little. Your heating space should be assessed in cubic feet, since stoves don't heat 2 dimensions. With that said, it appears that if you have only burned 200 lbs of pellets and you are cold it sounds like you are babying the stove. At full blast that stove will burn almost 4 bags (160lbs) in 24 hours.


It just occured to me that another possible reason for failure to heat is if the thermostat is too close to the stove. That would cause the stove to shut down when only the area nearest the stove is up to temperature.
Heating a large space, the thermostat needs to be about half way between the stove and the farthest distance of that space. The area nearest the stove will run warmer than the thermostat setting unless you have substantial air movement. My stove keeps the area nearest itself at about 74 when the thermostat is at 70. The space furthest from the stove is at about 68.


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## john193 (Feb 18, 2014)

Harvey Schneider said:


> It just occured to me that another possible reason for failure to heat is if the thermostat is too close to the stove. That would cause the stove to shut down when only the area nearest the stove is up to temperature.
> Heating a large space, the thermostat needs to be about half way between the stove and the farthest distance of that space. The area nearest the stove will run warmer than the thermostat setting unless you have substantial air movement. My stove keeps the area nearest itself at about 74 when the thermostat is at 70. The space furthest from the stove is at about 68.


If the thermostat doesn't cycle as a result of proximity it won't matter. My thermostat is 3 feet from the stove. When I set it at 72 the space the stove is in is 70 with temperatures dropping a few degrees in all other locations. 

The stove isn't a miracle worker and I'm afraid the OP was sold on the line "it will blow you out."  It is just a space heater so perhaps we are trying to diagnose an expectation rather than a malfunctioning stove.


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## Harvey Schneider (Feb 18, 2014)

john193 said:


> If the thermostat doesn't cycle as a result of proximity it won't matter. My thermostat is 3 feet from the stove. When I set it at 72 the space the stove is in is 70 with temperatures dropping a few degrees in all other locations.
> 
> The stove isn't a miracle worker and I'm afraid the OP was sold on the line "it will blow you out."  It is just a space heater so perhaps we are trying to diagnose an expectation rather than a malfunctioning stove.


Perhaps you are right, but 
...........................................
60,000 BTU/hr is a lot of heat capability. My oil fired boiler , that does the whole house plus DHW is only rated at just over 100,000. I can't help but expect that something isn't right.


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## newf lover (Feb 18, 2014)

Harvey Schneider said:


> Perhaps you are right, but
> ...........................................
> 60,000 BTU/hr is a lot of heat capability. My oil fired boiler , that does the whole house plus DHW is only rated at just over 100,000. I can't help but expect that something isn't right.



The OP seems to have disappeared. I agree, something is not right. Again, I would start by taking a look at the install. That heat is going somewhere if it's not heating the room.


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## hyfire (Feb 18, 2014)

Arwe you using manual mode or auto mode?  In auto mode it will scale back the heat output as it gets close to the set temperature settting, and in manual mode it will shut off, when it reaches the desired temp.


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## SwineFlue (Feb 18, 2014)

Harvey Schneider said:


> 60,000 BTU/hr is a lot of heat capability.



And he's only using half of it.  My 30,000 BTU/hr Castile routinely burns 2 1/2 bags a day in really cold weather


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## Mt Bob (Feb 18, 2014)

When it's cold i can go through 3,but usually am not home all day,so set stove back.Well we could all wonder why he has not came back?


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## hyfire (Feb 18, 2014)

I really bet his temperature set point was set to low in the stove and it was pulling back fuel...


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## tjnamtiw (Feb 18, 2014)

It would be nice if he came back and educated us on what he found.  Red faced or not, it would be the manly thing to do.


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## SwineFlue (Feb 18, 2014)

bob bare said:


> wonder why he has not came back?


Some people are online only once a  day


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## john193 (Feb 19, 2014)

SwineFlue said:


> Some people are online only once a  day


Sad to say, not sure I could survive. I resisted for over 2 years before getting a smartphone. Now I can't seem to be without...


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## afd_82 (Feb 19, 2014)

Sorry every one, I work 24 hour shifts and really no time for the World Wide Web but sorry I took so long. I'm trying to hit as many questions and I can remember but thank you so very very much for the help.
 I have changed the setting like posted on here 

The instal seemed to go well but did have to put a 90degree elbow in it due to existing fire place.

Last year I burnt 1500 lbs of propane (I think it's in lbs not gal) but that was for the year, hot water, stove that I don't use and dryer- the fan is on med reverse and the loft is about the same temp. 

200 lbs since I bought it now 520 or so is what I have burnt for propane 

Thermostat is Down the hall of the stove just as stated above half way form the end but hard to get heat down there.

What is an OP? And how do I look at the install? 

I'm using manual mode have it down the hallway halfway from the stove and the garage  set at 80 #5 and is 35 degrees outside, and 67 in the room of the stove.

I talked to the guy who installed it said he would take a look at it, but kind of said it's all set up right.... 

I tried a different type of pellets, did not seem to change and last night it went to auto clean got clogged and shut down....


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## afd_82 (Feb 19, 2014)

Edit (running on no sleep) 520lbs of pellets and nothing to do with propane.... Sorry for the long confusing post also here are the 2 brands of pellets I have tried


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## hyfire (Feb 19, 2014)

Keep track of your pellet usage @60k btu you should burn a 40lb bag in 5 hours approx.  Do you have enough draft? I assume OP is output power.  Is the blower set to normal?Those pellets are 8500-9000 BTU a lb , you should be warm as Hiroshima was at 8:15AM ,Aug 6,1945...you should not be able to put your face near the stove.. more than a few seconds.. If your burning less than that on high mode maybe its an auger issue, or maybe the stove is triggering some safety sensor and reducing fuel.


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## NHcpa (Feb 19, 2014)

Hi, I have a contemporary cape w/cathedral ceilings...  Of the loft area, can you install (on a temporary pole) insulated curtains to slow the rise of heated air?  also too, with all the glass, do you have OAK?


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## johnoutdoors (Feb 19, 2014)

afd_82 said:


> What is an OP?


The *O*riginal *P*oster of the thread.  What does your flame look like? Jet engine or lazy like a low campfire?


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## Tonyray (Feb 20, 2014)

afd_82 said:


> Edit (running on no sleep) 520lbs of pellets and nothing to do with propane.... Sorry for the long confusing post also here are the 2 brands of pellets I have tried


Wondeing if you have the Canadian Brand of Energex......
this is mine in PA.


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## doghouse (Feb 20, 2014)

A co-worker of mine has the same stove.  His complaints were the same as yours.  What he did was make the dealer come out to his home and have the dealer walk him through the owners manual and show him how to make the stove throw heat.  Lets just say that when he has his stove is cranked, the snow in my driveway melts. 
Driveway: that's dooryard to you Yankees!


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## pfmaloney (Feb 20, 2014)

afd_82 said:


> the fan is on med reverse and the loft is about the same temp.


I get very good results from my ceiling fan in distributing the heat, but I run it on low.
I had read that if you use a ceiling fan in reverse in the winter, it should be at its lowest setting to minimize cooling the heated air.

Just a thought.


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## Tonyray (Feb 20, 2014)

Correct... i have that fan setup at the top of the stairs to 2nd floor.


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## pfmaloney (Feb 20, 2014)

on Medium speed?


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## afd_82 (Feb 20, 2014)

I would guess it burns about 40 lbs in 6 to 7 hours, also am I doing some thing wrong my pellets have to be pushed over  to the left towards the auger it's like the angle is not great Enugu or not smooth

The curtain is a great idea but it does not even make it over to the loft (the heat)

Johnoutdoors it's like a jets engine You can't even look at it

Tony ray- yes they are from canada we are not too far from where they are made. Is the stuff from Canada better or worse?

Doghouse- they stove guy is coming today

My fan is on 2 in rev. I will turn it down, it just seemed so slow that's all

Thanks guys and I will post when the stove guy leaves


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## Ezekiel_33 (Feb 20, 2014)

Another few things you have to consider maybe:  Is your home on a cement slab perhaps?  If "yes", what is it covered with?  The cement will take a huge amount of energy to initially get it up to snuff temperature wise. After that, it is all downhill and easy going. 
My MT Vernon (pre-AE) is down in the basement. Last year we laid carpet and really cut down on the pellet usage too.


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## afd_82 (Feb 20, 2014)

It is not a slab full basment, tec is here now putting a 2013 blower he said the 14's are diffrent and now made in China not US any more? Also he had the computer hooked up to the thermostat.... I will keep you posted


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## hyfire (Feb 20, 2014)

afd_82 said:


> It is not a slab full basment, tec is here now putting a 2013 blower he said the 14's are diffrent and now made in China not US any more? Also he had the computer hooked up to the thermostat.... I will keep you posted



I would love to find out the cause..........China? ack


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## hyfire (Feb 20, 2014)

Mr.AFD is taking a longtime to respond, maybe its something more serious than we all thought?


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## afd_82 (Feb 20, 2014)

We'll there really is no change it was on full tilt and 33 outside and can only get it up to 66 in here, the tec did not say much else other then try it let me know and after he was gone the stove shut down and said "vacuum sw error" so I hit retry and and it started up again. That's all I have for you so far....


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## tjnamtiw (Feb 20, 2014)

I don't have an AE but usually when you have a vacuum switch error, you have a poor combustion air situation to go along with it, as in bad blower or clogged exhaust, bad door gasket, open dump valve, leaks around burn pot, something else bypassing the burn pot holes.


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## Mt Bob (Feb 20, 2014)

describe your flu setup,as you replace gas fireplace.


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## afd_82 (Feb 20, 2014)

It comes out the stove a 3-5 inches 45degree elbow and then another 45 to go right outside if I remember correctly  (the elbows were used to angle it  to the preexisting hole from the gas fireplace. The pipe outside is 1 foot long and angled down. Is that what you were looking for?


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## tjnamtiw (Feb 20, 2014)

Is there a screen on the end of the pipe that could be clogged?


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## Mt Bob (Feb 20, 2014)

No vertical flue from the gas unit?


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## hyfire (Feb 20, 2014)

How much vertical rise from the stove from those 45 bends? The tech did not bring a magnehelic gauge with him  to check the draft???  Read what it says in blue...


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## afd_82 (Feb 20, 2014)

The rise is prob. About 1 foot or less from the 45, this is 3 feet out from the house and no we're near the roof line


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## hyfire (Feb 20, 2014)

Question, could you not use the existing chimney and put a liner in it?


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## afd_82 (Feb 20, 2014)

I do not have a chimney it was a direct vent with a dog house off the house


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## Mt Bob (Feb 20, 2014)

That is good info.Your stove on m5 should be able to almost cook hotdogs at the air coming out of the front.If not,you have stove problem.If it does,you have house heat leaks bad.


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## chken (Feb 20, 2014)

afd_82 said:


> I would guess it burns about 40 lbs in 6 to 7 hours, also am I doing some thing wrong my pellets have to be pushed over  to the left towards the auger it's like the angle is not great Enugu or not smooth


This is odd, if you can burn a bag in 6 to 7 hours, that means you can burn almost 4 bags in a 24 hr period, which is about right for your stove, I believe. If it can burn that much, you should have plenty of heat, but you also said at the start of this thread that you burn 2 to 2.5 bags a day, and aren't getting much heat. If you can burn almost 4 bags a day, why are you burning only 2 to 2.5?


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## hyfire (Feb 21, 2014)

He needs to re-evaluate his usage, with a stopwatch, however the igntion time will screw up the results a bit...Just for a test I sat in front of my stove tonight on high, its not same as yours but similar output.......and It was so had to get away from it after 1 minute....Please confirm your pellet usage...


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## Ezekiel_33 (Feb 24, 2014)

> It is not a slab full basment, tec is here now putting a 2013 blower he said the 14's are diffrent and now made in China not US any more? Also he had the computer hooked up to the thermostat.... I will keep you posted



Is the stove in the basement or on the main floor?
If it is in the basement, and basement is unfinished you won't heat it.
If it is on the main floor, then also consider what type of flooring, walls, etc.
It takes a while to heat up the surrounding materials when you first fire it up. 
I am heating a modular home made in 2000, with a walk-out basement in northern lower Michigan on 2 bags a day with an older MT Vernon(pre-AE).
My stove is in the basement, and I run it with a programmable thermostat. 
Last year, after having carpet installed in basement, my pellet usage dropped dramatically. It takes a lot of convection energy to heat certain materials.


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## afd_82 (Feb 24, 2014)

Ok guys I'm back from camp and tonight I will start a bag count on manual high as soon as my stove is running...... Yes that's right it runs until auto cleaning starts up and it says "vacuum sw error".  Ezekiel this is a modular also with a unfinished daylight but the stove is upstairs. The stove guy is coming back again.... Ugh


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## afd_82 (Feb 24, 2014)

Ok so the tec changed out a board I guess? I'm going to start the bag count over the next 24 hours and report back


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## hyfire (Feb 24, 2014)

afd_82 said:


> Ok so the tec changed out a board I guess? I'm going to start the bag count over the next 24 hours and report back



Perfect!, but you might have to start the clock after the ignition cycle is complete?


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## Harvey Schneider (Feb 24, 2014)

pfmaloney said:


> I get very good results from my ceiling fan in distributing the heat, but I run it on low.
> I had read that if you use a ceiling fan in reverse in the winter, it should be at its lowest setting to minimize cooling the heated air.
> 
> Just a thought.


Results vary. I experimented with my ceiling fan and found that I get the best heat distribution with the fan in down mode (summer) and highest speed. I am not suggesting that this is better for everyone, just that one should experiment and find out what works best in their house.


By the way, the fan doesn't cool the heated air. The air feels cool to the skin because it extracts heat from our skin more quickly than still air.Having the fan in winter mode simply avoids the air movement being directly at you The air however is the same temperature it was without the fan. The fan whether it is winter or summer mode is simply transporting the air.


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## Ezekiel_33 (Feb 25, 2014)

Hey afd,  if your modular is one of the newer ones with 6" walls, it should heat real nice. My buddy had one that was like just over 1500 sq ft and he heated it with a quadrafire fireplace insert on 1 bag a day.


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## Harvey Schneider (Feb 25, 2014)

hyfire said:


> Perfect!, but you might have to start the clock after the ignition cycle is complete?


I don't understand. Ignition takes a few minutes at most. How is this going to affect bags burned per day in any significant way?


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## afd_82 (Feb 25, 2014)

From 6pm last night to 12pm we are at 2 bags and hoper is topped off and full and the stove is on manual high. But still not hot in here....


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## chken (Feb 25, 2014)

afd_82 said:


> From 6pm last night to 12pm we are at 2 bags and hoper is topped off and full and the stove is on manual high. But still not hot in here....


So, 18 hrs and only 2 bags? A16 degree avg temp day is a 2.5 bag day here. I know you have a ceiling fan, but are you sure the heat isn't up at the top of your vaulted ceiling? Does the stove appear to be cranking or is it idling from time to time? It sure doesn't seem to burn a bag every 6 or 7 hrs, since if you were maxed out, you'd be close to 3 bags.


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## tjnamtiw (Feb 25, 2014)

Put that temperature sensor in the top of your 17 foot ceiling and see what reading you get.  I dare you!


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## Harvey Schneider (Feb 25, 2014)

afd_82 said:


> From 6pm last night to 12pm we are at 2 bags and hopper is topped off and full and the stove is on manual high. But still not hot in here....


Two bags in 18 hours is only 37,000 BTU/hr input for about 30,000 BTU/hr delivered to the room. The stove should be capable of 1.6 times that. Even allowing for autoclean reducing the burn time it is still well under what the stove should be capable of.
Still the fact that it takes that much makes me wonder if you have substantial air infiltration or an uninsulated area. The reason that I say that is, I have a little PDVC in my unfinished basement with no insulation and substantial air leaks and that can get the 1200 sq ft from 54 up to 78 in about three hours. That's with the bare concrete walls being washed with air by a circulation fan. The PDVC is only capable of 22,400 BTU output max.
A good job for an infrared thermometer is scanning walls and ceilings for cold spots


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## afd_82 (Feb 25, 2014)

The only time it is at idle is auto clean, I can't say there are not any drafts but  have not any problems when with my forced hot air.


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## Harvey Schneider (Feb 25, 2014)

afd_82 said:


> The only time it is at idle is auto clean, I can't say there are not any drafts but  have not any problems when with my forced hot air.


An experiment you might want to try.
If your problem is air stagnation with the warm air all up in the cathedral ceiling, stirring the air might change things.
Back in the 70's I lived in a drafty old turn of the century three story house. The only way I was able to make the place liveable was to keep the circulating fan from the forced hot air system on all the time.
The forced convection disrupted the normal drafts that took the warm air up to the 10 foot ceilings and cold air down the uninsulated walls to where we sat.
So, as a temporary experiment, can you turn on your heating system's fan (usually controlled by a switch on the thermostat) and see if the ability of the stove to heat the space is improved?


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## afd_82 (Feb 25, 2014)

I just turned it on only problem I see is that the only cold air retune is the most distal point of where the stove was (heat does not make it that far down the house) but you are saying you just need the air in the vent to "move things around"


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## Harvey Schneider (Feb 25, 2014)

afd_82 said:


> I just turned it on only problem I see is that the only cold air retune is the most distal point of where the stove was (heat does not make it that far down the house) but you are saying you just need the air in the vent to "move things around"


Having the return in a colder part of the house will increase the area the stove is heating, but if stagnation is the problem it should still show marked improvement.
I don't know how big your furnace is. A typical size is about 100,000BTU/hr input (my hydronic system is rated around that size). That's to heat the whole house. So If the stove is really putting out about 30% of that it should be able to heat the space. That is unless the circulation is needed to keep the hot air from floating up to the ceiling.
I think you mentioned a ceiling fan. You might want to experiment with having it blow down and high speed to see if that stirs things up.
Remember these are experiments. They will hopefully give us a clue as to what is happening.


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## hyfire (Feb 25, 2014)

Harvey Schneider said:


> I don't understand. Ignition takes a few minutes at most. How is this going to affect bags burned per day in any significant way?



Well on my stove anyway the igntion cycle can last up to 30 minutes where the auger will feed and stop at specific times.  Lets just call it a start up cycle, until you get a standard auger/on off time in run mode...so yes it will effect the bag burning time slightly depending where you start your timing count.


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## hyfire (Feb 25, 2014)

afd_82 said:


> From 6pm last night to 12pm we are at 2 bags and hoper is topped off and full and the stove is on manual high. But still not hot in here....



Its not feeding enough get that tech back in, he is not doing a thorough job of fixing the issue..IMHO.


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## Harvey Schneider (Feb 25, 2014)

hyfire said:


> Well on my stove anyway the igntion cycle can last up to 30 minutes where the auger will feed and stop at specific times.  Lets just call it a start up cycle, until you get a standard auger/on off time in run mode...so yes it will effect the bag burning time slightly depending where you start your timing count.


My MVAE starts up in a very few minutes. I remember that it preheats for about a minute before it starts to drop pellets, but after that it is typically about a minute before I see flame. It does slowly build the fire, but even at the end of a clean cycle the convection air is still hot when it ignites. If it took more than a couple of minutes I would be thinking that I need to clean the stove. 
But that's just the way the MVAE works for me.YMMV


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## hyfire (Feb 25, 2014)

I am going to do the extact burn time  that he should be seeing, not including ignition, pre heat time, etc.  This is a worst case situation.

60,200 BTU  OUTPUT@ 81.4% efficiency=73955 INPUT BTU


73955 INPUT/ 8000 BTU/lb=9.24 lbs/hr

40lbs/9.24 lbs/hr=4.33HRS per bag of pellets or 4.157 bags in 18 hours...........

hopper holds 56 lbs+-5 lbs, so no way you can get 2 full bags ins this unit!


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## Harvey Schneider (Feb 25, 2014)

hyfire said:


> I am going to do the extact burn time  that he should be seeing, not including ignition, pre heat time, etc.  This is a worst case situation.
> 
> 60,200 BTU  OUTPUT@ 81.4% efficiency=73955 INPUT BTU
> 
> ...


I think you have skewed your result slightly. In all probability the BTU/hr rating of the stove is done with the hottest pellets they could buy. Also the efficiency number is probably obtained under ideal conditions. Still, if you come in within 15% of what you expect, I will believe the result.
At three bags a day, I would estimate my MVAE is putting out an average of 41,500 BTU/hr. The peak is higher than that because the thermostat sets back to 65 for the night and bumps up to 70 early in the morning and holds there until night. The only other source of heat I have on  the 1200 sq ft first floor is waste heat from the refrigerator. Even with the low temperatures we are seeing the stove manages idle time when the thermostat is satisfied.


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## hyfire (Feb 25, 2014)

You are correct I took the lowest btu hr pellet rating and lowest efficiency rating of the stove, so yes =-15% of my calcs could be a real world number of run time. What is interesting here is the manufacturer is rating the stove as BTU output, where other stoves usually rate as BTU input, which is nice since it gives you the true rating output....


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## afd_82 (Feb 25, 2014)

So burnt just shy of 3 bags


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## LMPS (Feb 25, 2014)

People have asked what your flame looks like and you answered that, but I do not see that you mentioned what your flame height adjustment was set at?
The flame height along with the heat output control how much heat you are going to get.  If you have it set to manual with a high heat output and a flame height of -5 or zero than you would be starving the stove of the needed fuel.  When its cold out I run mine on Manual, High +5 Flame height and on softwood to get the most out of the stove with the longest run between Auto Cleaning. I tend not to worry about what the flame height looks like and go by what I need for heat. Sorry if I missed it but what is your flame height?  
Second what is your fuel type set to?  If it is set to utility you might try soft or hard wood setting (some of us have even been know to burn on sunflower when its real cold out but that is another post).


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## Harvey Schneider (Feb 25, 2014)

afd_82 said:


> So burnt just shy of 3 bags


I have lost track of timing. Three bags in how many hours and with what temperature results.


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## tjnamtiw (Feb 25, 2014)

hyfire said:


> Well on my stove anyway the igntion cycle can last up to 30 minutes where the auger will feed and stop at specific times.  Lets just call it a start up cycle, until you get a standard auger/on off time in run mode...so yes it will effect the bag burning time slightly depending where you start your timing count.


but his stove never shuts down!


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## chken (Feb 25, 2014)

afd_82 said:


> So burnt just shy of 3 bags


So, a little less than 3 bags in 24 hrs. As I noted earlier, this was a 2 to 2.5 bag day for me in 24 hrs in central Maine. So, was your house warmer? You certainly seemed to burn enough pellets to keep your house hot, the question is why isn't your house warm. I know you've been asked, but your room fan is on high, right?


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## hyfire (Feb 25, 2014)

He said he burned 2 bags in 18 hours.  I say the stove on high should burn 4 bags in 18 hours ......so its still not right..and that is why his house is cold..Big glass windows and doors at night have very little R value which does not help either.


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## Ezekiel_33 (Feb 26, 2014)

Right now my ignitor is out due to the holder coming off the fire pot. It is too cold up here in northern MI to shut it down for a day or two while I take it to a buddy to get it re-welded. Meanwhile, I set my thermostat at 86 and turned my stove on it's lowest setting (pre-AE Mt Vernon) and lit it manually. I am now burning about 2.5-3 bags a day, and my basement (about 1,300 sq ft) is staying around 82 while it is around zero outside. In fact, it was about -17 this morning.

How many sq ft did you say you are trying to heat?


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## chken (Feb 26, 2014)

Just re-read the initial post, and I'd say your problem is baffling. Does the snow melt on your roof, so that you can see your roof joists, or does it stay snow longer than your neighbors?

How much oil or whatever were you burning before? That should give us a baseline for your house's energy requirements. Square footage, volume, # of windows, etc are good to know, but it's far more accurate to know how much energy you needed to heat your house before the pellet stove.

Did your old primary heat source keep your house warm?


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## hyfire (Feb 26, 2014)

Its simple if he can't burn the required fuel to make 60k btu he won't get 60k btu into the room.........


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## Harvey Schneider (Feb 26, 2014)

hyfire said:


> Its simple if he can't burn the required fuel to make 60k btu he won't get 60k btu into the room.........


I agree with you but, there is another side to the equation. I don't think it should take 60kBTU to heat that space. I think both issues need to be examined.


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## hyfire (Feb 26, 2014)

Harvey Schneider said:


> I agree with you but, there is another side to the equation. I don't think it should take 60kBTU to heat that space. I think both issues need to be examined.


Good point...What we need is someone else with the same stove to confirm the pellet usage rate also..


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## richg (Feb 26, 2014)

Quadrafire has a tendency to dramatically overstate the heating capability of their stoves. "Heats up to X feet" means nothing. My Quad 1200 was rated to heat "up to 2500 square feet".....well, it didn't even come close. A Harman P61A did heat my whopping 2000 square foot house with no trouble.


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## hyfire (Feb 26, 2014)

richg said:


> Quadrafire has a tendency to dramatically overstate the heating capability of their stoves. "Heats up to X feet" means nothing. My Quad 1200 was rated to heat "up to 2500 square feet".....well, it didn't even come close. A Harman P61A did heat my whopping 2000 square foot house with no trouble.



So your saying the btu numbers are inflated?


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## richg (Feb 26, 2014)

hyfire said:


> So your saying the btu numbers are inflated?



To be blunt as a bowling ball,YES. The Quad 1200 puts out 40K BTU's and did not adequately heat my house. The Harman P61A puts out 61K BTU's and did a great job of heating the place. When the cards are on the table, the only thing that really matters is the BTU output of the stove. Manufacturers can and will make up all kinds of ridiculous numbers about the performance of their stoves and Quad is one of the worst offenders. Dane doesn't BS about his stoves...he doesn't have to.


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## chken (Feb 26, 2014)

richg said:


> To be blunt as a bowling ball,YES. The Quad 1200 puts out 40K BTU's and did not adequately heat my house. The Harman P61A puts out 61K BTU's and did a great job of heating the place. When the cards are on the table, the only thing that really matters is the BTU output of the stove. Manufacturers can and will make up all kinds of ridiculous numbers about the performance of their stoves and Quad is one of the worst offenders. Dane doesn't BS about his stoves...he doesn't have to.


To be fair, those are input btus, not output btus. You have to factor in stove efficiency to get approx. output btus, after you compare your pellets to the avg that the mfr uses. Some use 8000 btus as the average, others higher like 8200 btus.

Oh, aren't Quads and Harmans owned by the same company?


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## jlupi (Feb 26, 2014)

richg said:


> To be blunt as a bowling ball,YES. The Quad 1200 puts out 40K BTU's and did not adequately heat my house. The Harman P61A puts out 61K BTU's and did a great job of heating the place. When the cards are on the table, the only thing that really matters is the BTU output of the stove. Manufacturers can and will make up all kinds of ridiculous numbers about the performance of their stoves and Quad is one of the worst offenders. Dane doesn't BS about his stoves...he doesn't have to.



so your saying the stove w 20k more btu heats better?  this was a surprise?


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## Harvey Schneider (Feb 27, 2014)

Is flame height set to +5? That controls feed rate. Anything less will restrict pellet feed rate and heat output.


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## afd_82 (Feb 27, 2014)

Hello back from the fire house again, wife states the stove ran out (that's new)and she works 8-5 and gets home around 6ish. With this on manual hight will now be a new problem, the tec came and changed out a board the other day he was here...... Now I can't keep this thing running long enuff and is still damn cold 67 degrees now (hey that's up) 

Tried the fan from the furnace seemed to do very little but only tried 3 or 4 hours.

My furnace is a forced hot air 3 year old 148000 btu furnace

As I stated before the stove seems to burn more fuel (good and bad)

The flame looks good per owners manual

It's set on utility flame, 0

The snow does not melt no sings of heat loss there

We used right around 1500 gal. Of propane last year

Yes my furnace keeps the house warm (I'm still using it because of the lack of heat here)

My fan is on down high or med (change it from time to time) but "winter mode" did not do much

As I'm typing this the stove shut off and said "low pot tem"


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## Harvey Schneider (Feb 27, 2014)

afd_82 said:


> It's set on utility flame, 0


Set that to +5. Flame height controls pellet feed rate. It's like a speed limiter on an engine. You can't generate full capacity heat output with the limiter set.

Low pot temp error means that it either failed to ignite or didn't feed pellets. It won't feed pellets if the hopper lid isn't closed, etc.
If something is open you should see an icon on the screen after you hit retry.


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## chken (Feb 27, 2014)

So, you burnt thru a whole hopper, 47lbs, in a little over 10 hrs? Your wife got home at 6, you filled it before leaving at 8am. Probably a 5 lb/hr burn rate? Or about 40k btus. The stove still has some capacity to burn more, since it's a 52k btu stove. Having said that, 67 degrees is not bad, I don't heat my house beyond 65.

A 148k btu furnace seems largish for your house, maybe indicative of your heating needs. 1500 gal of propane is about equal to 1000 gals of heating oil, which is above average for a 2000sqft home in Maine. Nowadays, the avg is about 800 gals, so your heating needs seem to be a bit above avg, though if you are including DHW in that 1500 gals of propane, that could be the difference.

I'm going to guesstimate that you probably used about 9 gals of propane on an "average" winter day, which would put you at about 2.5 bags of pellets for an avg winter day, which is a lot. I'd guess the average winter needs for most people here is around 1.5 bags. Remember, that's for an average day between 25 and 35 degrees.

So, now that I think your house has higher heating needs than your avg home, there are still a couple questions. One, if you are supplementing your heat with the gas furnace, are you actually turning off the stove because the stove thermostat is reaching its set point? I know you tried manual, but I want to make sure you're not inadvertently turning off your stove because of the gas furnace being on. Two, are you sure there aren't air leaks around those large windows and doors? You should consider getting a cheap IR thermometer and shooting the picture framing around the windows and doors. If you find any, remove the moulding and foam. How's the snow melt on the roof? Do the rafters show thru as the snow melts? Does your roof keep its snow hat on longer or shorter than your neighbors? I know you have what looks like a 12:12 pitch, so it might slide off first.

One of the downsides to an insert is that the hopper is not all that large. So, if you burned at your max rate of 6.5lbs / hr, you'd have to refill it every 7 hrs.


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## hyfire (Feb 27, 2014)

Where did you get the 52k btu rating from???????? Manual states 60K BTU OUTPUT, not input...


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## chken (Feb 27, 2014)

hyfire said:


> Where did you get the 52k btu rating from???????? Manual states 60K BTU OUTPUT, not input...


Where? Nowhere, I just thought that was what it was. My brother has a MVAE and I thought he told me it was a 52k btu stove. Then again, that was several years ago.


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## Harvey Schneider (Feb 27, 2014)

chken said:


> Where? Nowhere, I just thought that was what it was. My brother has a MVAE and I thought he told me it was a 52k btu stove. Then again, that was several years ago.


I heard rumor that the spec was changed from 60K to 58.4K. Not that it matters. That stove heats like the sun.


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## LMPS (Feb 27, 2014)

Harvey is right turn the turn the feed rate up to +5, and take it off Utility move it to softwood it gives you longer run times.  I think you will see a much better result.


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## JoeS (Feb 27, 2014)

I would set it on sunflower seed setting at -5 flame height, manual low to start and see what kind of heat you get out of the unit.

This setting should generate maximum heat.

Personally I think something is wrong with your stove, I heat a much larger area effortlessly.


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## hyfire (Feb 27, 2014)

Joe how man bags do you burn a day?????


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## JoeS (Feb 27, 2014)

hyfire said:


> Joe how man bags do you burn a day?????



Obviously it depends on the temps outside and wind conditions but on average running on the sunflower setting 3 bags a day.

I don't always use this setting, mainly only on very cold and windy days!


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## hyfire (Feb 27, 2014)

Excuse my ignorance but what does the sunflower setting mean/do?


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## Harvey Schneider (Feb 27, 2014)

hyfire said:


> Excuse my ignorance but what does the sunflower setting mean/do?


Sunflower setting increases the amount of fuel being delivered. It does this because sunflower seeds don't yield as much heat as pellets. When you run pellets at the sunflower setting you get more than the stove is designed for. I haven't tried it myself, so I can't say how it burns.


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## LMPS (Feb 28, 2014)

I have burned on sunflower and as Joe says it burns hot, very hot....but the trade off is you go through a high number of bags per day.  I have burned on sunflower +5 flame height when its below zero for a few days in arrow and I easily can go through 3+ bags a day on that setting.  The trade off is a lot of heat which keeps the wife happy


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## hyfire (Feb 28, 2014)

SorrY I am confused Joe said to run -5 flame height and  your saying +5 flame height?  Which is correct....  A happy wife is a good thing...I;m told..lol


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## Harvey Schneider (Feb 28, 2014)

hyfire said:


> SorrY I am confused Joe said to run -5 flame height and  your saying +5 flame height?  Which is correct....  A happy wife is a good thing...I;m told..lol


Flame height is just another name for feed rate. If you want more heat it takes more flame. In this weather I run flame height +5, manual mode, heat output +5.
Edit
I just went back to the source of confusion. In sunflower seed mode the stove burns a lot more and needs to be turned down. The -5 setting is only for sunflower seed mode and pellets as fuel.


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## hyfire (Feb 28, 2014)

Harvey Schneider said:


> Flame height is just another name for feed rate. If you want more heat it takes more flame. In this weather I run flame height +5, manual mode, heat output +5.
> Edit
> I just went back to the source of confusion. In sunflower seed mode the stove burns a lot more and needs to be turned down. The -5 setting is only for sunflower seed mode and pellets as fuel.



Thanks for making it clear, I really want to OP to get some good output from that stove....it should be "like the sun" in front of that thing...


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## LMPS (Feb 28, 2014)

Either -5 or +5 is correct, again the flame height controls the feed rate so higher the flame height the more pellets which equals more heat.  So, if sunflower or softwood. or hardwood or utility at -5 produces enough heat to keep your house warm than that is correct.  If not then keep adjusting it up until you get the heat you need, along with adjusting the heat output level if your in manual.  For my house when its real cold meaning below zero for a few days in arrow I have to run +5 Sunflower on Manual High to get the heat I need.  If it is normal temp then I can run it on softwood, either manual or automatic and cut the flame height backto +2 or lower.


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## JoeS (Mar 1, 2014)

hyfire said:


> SorrY I am confused Joe said to run -5 flame height and  your saying +5 flame height?  Which is correct....  A happy wife is a good thing...I;m told..lol



Start with a -5 and adjust from there!


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## Harvey Schneider (Mar 2, 2014)

I'm wondering, this thread just went quiet. I didn't get the impression that the OP ever resolved his problem.
Did I miss something?


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## hyfire (Mar 2, 2014)

Harvey Schneider said:


> I'm wondering, this thread just went quiet. I didn't get the impression that the OP ever resolved his problem.
> Did I miss something?



I think he is just busy warming up the house with the furnace, ...maybe he will post later tonight?


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## LMPS (Mar 2, 2014)

I think he said he works 24hr shifts.


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## hyfire (Mar 2, 2014)

LMPS said:


> I think he said he works 24hr shifts.




No doubt, in order to afford to feed that stove when its on +5 manual mode..


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## afd_82 (Mar 4, 2014)

So I have tried just about every thing (every thing that was suggested on here) with very little results. I'm going to get a blower door test done and see if I am losing heat from the house and were because my heating bill has gone up since I bought this dumb thing, now it's propane and pellets.......thanks for the help guys


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## Harvey Schneider (Mar 4, 2014)

afd_82 said:


> So I have tried just about every thing (every thing that was suggested on here) with very little results. I'm going to get a blower door test done and see if I am losing heat from the house and were because my heating bill has gone up since I bought this dumb thing, now it's propane and pellets.......thanks for the help guys


You might also want to get an infrared scan of the house, inside and out. With that you can visualize where your heat losses are happening.
A poor man's version of a scan is to use an infrared thermometer to look at the temperatures of the interior walls and record them on a photo of the wall.

You might also want to consider that this has been an exceptionally cold winter.


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## hyfire (Mar 4, 2014)

I understand your frustration...so how many bags are we burning a day 4? If not your still doing something wrong...How big is that propane  furnace again?


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## hyfire (Mar 6, 2014)

TTT


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## hyfire (Mar 9, 2014)

This has gone all quiet, I guess the the problem is solved....


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## afd_82 (Mar 27, 2014)

The test shows that the 3 year old house has many many problems.... 4 times the amount of air movement that the house should have..... IE piss poor inslation from the manufactured home builders...... So it's not the stove it's pine grove homes from PA. I hope they read this because I know if I go back to them they are just going to laugh at me and say "too bad"..... Time to start saving up to add instlation for a house in the north east not Florida.


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## chken (Mar 27, 2014)

afd_82 said:


> The test shows that the 3 year old house has many many problems.... 4 times the amount of air movement that the house should have..... IE piss poor inslation from the manufactured home builders...... So it's not the stove it's pine grove homes from PA. I hope they read this because I know if I go back to them they are just going to laugh at me and say "too bad"..... Time to start saving up to add instlation for a house in the north east not Florida.


You had a blower test done? So, you have drafts all around the windows, doors and outlets, etc.? What did the tester say? Caulk the heck out of the house when it's warmer? Still doesn't explain why the stove doesn't crank to try to keep up with the heat loss, does it?


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## hyfire (Mar 28, 2014)

No wonder the propane bill is higher than your income....I would be pissed too...change the windows, make the builder pay a portion of the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


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## hyfire (Mar 29, 2014)

This is a quite interesting.............might help you 

http://www.residentialenergylaboratory.com/r_value_cellular_shades.html


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## afd_82 (Nov 14, 2014)

Sorry this has taken so long to respond and many may not care much any more but I am happy to say my house is warm, hell I will say it HOT! Thank you every one for all the help. I had the company from Quadra fire change out a few things that helped (not sure what it was really) but after that blower door test I got the report and took there advice and had the pretty much replace all of the insulation most of the insulation in my house is rolled insulation they replaced it with blown cellulose pipe insulation I was very impressed and I'm very happy I only have to run my Mount Vernon stove on low or medium low to keep it around 70° on a 30° day and burning only a bag bag and a half It was a very large investment but will be worth it in the long run. Thank you guys!


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## chken (Nov 14, 2014)

afd_82 said:


> Sorry this has taken so long to respond and many may not care much any more but I am happy to say my house is warm, hell I will say it HOT! Thank you every one for all the help. I had the company from Quadra fire change out a few things that helped (not sure what it was really) but after that blower door test I got the report and took there advice and had the pretty much replace all of the insulation most of the insulation in my house is rolled insulation they replaced it with blown cellulose pipe insulation I was very impressed and I'm very happy I only have to run my Mount Vernon stove on low or medium low to keep it around 70° on a 30° day and burning only a bag bag and a half It was a very large investment but will be worth it in the long run. Thank you guys!


Glad it worked out for you. I think what threw everyone off was that it was a new house, so one would have guessed pretty well-insulated and reasonably tight, though the 1500 gallons of propane indicated it used more than an average home. The mfr should be ashamed as the insulation is put in a factory, where it's easy to get it done right.


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## john193 (Nov 14, 2014)

chken said:


> Glad it worked out for you. I think what threw everyone off was that it was a new house, so one would have guessed pretty well-insulated and reasonably tight, though the 1500 gallons of propane indicated it used more than an average home. The mfr should be ashamed as the insulation is put in a factory, where it's easy to get it done right.



Most builders just stamp out these houses like eye balling a recipie. My current house, built in 64, is tighter than my last one built in 2006.


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## hyfire (Nov 14, 2014)

Glad it worked out!  Insulation is your best investment for years to come..


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