# New 30 Amp Shed Sub Panel underground electrical feed. - Should I use 10/3 UF-B or 10/2 UF-B and is



## Don2222

Hello

I got a 2 circuit 30 amp sub panel at Home Depot for $13 dollars. Now the wire is where they get ya!!

Here is the same box for $29.00!
https://solarconduit.com/shop/square-d-qo-load-center-2-circuit-30-amp-surface-mount-indoor.html

Well, It is a nice weekend to teach my son trench digging 101 with a pick and shovel! LOL

The dirt next to our foundation I thought was concrete it was so very hard!!

So I showed my son what a pick ax is used for!!

*Anyway, what wire should I use and how deep do I go? 1.5 to 3 feet? How to attach a ground rod?*

I need about 150 feet since the main panel is on the opposite end for our house!


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## Morgan

If you want 120volt circuits then you need 10/3 wire...........10/2 and you could only have 240v circuits as you have no neutral wire.  I don't think you need a ground rod......however I am not an electrician so I could be wrong 
on that. I would go about 2' deep and put caution tape at 1' deep, not sure if its code, but a good idea.


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## Don2222

Morgan said:
			
		

> If you want 120volt circuits then you need 10/3 wire...........10/2 and you could only have 240v circuits as you have no neutral wire.  I don't think you need a ground rod......however I am not an electrician so I could be wrong
> on that. I would go about 2' deep and put caution tape at 1' deep, not sure if its code, but a good idea.



Hi Morgan

One of my friends used 12-2 romex and put a plug on the end and plugged it into one of his house outlets. Then in the shed he just dasy chained a few outlets and then to a light. LOL But it has been working for 10 years!!


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## Hass

I usually see people go between 2-3' deep, and put the wire inside of PVC. your main panel should have a ground rod on it (and/or be grounded to your water main), so there should be no need for you to use another ground rod.
I assume you're not using permits then, correct?


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## Don2222

Hass said:
			
		

> I usually see people go between 2-3' deep, and put the wire inside of PVC. your main panel should have a ground rod on it (and/or be grounded to your water main), so there should be no need for you to use another ground rod.
> I assume you're not using permits then, correct?



Yes, my main panel is grounded to the main water pipe. Quite a few years ago I had an electrician check the ground and put a new connector on it so I know that ground is good! I did get a permit for the shed and the shed was approved in the final inspection. No electrical permit. So if I do the electrical correctly I should be all set.


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## begreen

Morgan said:
			
		

> If you want 120volt circuits then you need 10/3 wire...........10/2 and you could only have 240v circuits as you have no neutral wire.  I don't think you need a ground rod......however I am not an electrician so I could be wrong
> on that. I would go about 2' deep and put caution tape at 1' deep, not sure if its code, but a good idea.



Just the opposite. 10/3 will give you two hots and a neutral. That will give you the option of having 240 and 120V in the shed. But if this is overkill and all you plan on needing is a lighting + convenience outlet or two, then 10/2 is sufficient for a single 30 amp, 120V feed, though given the distance I would fuse it with a 20 amp breaker in the shed to allow for line loss. You don't need a ground rod, but it wouldn't hurt. Not sure what depth is required for your locale, but I'd go at  least 24".


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## bluedogz

When I did exactly the same thing, I used 10/3 to a subpanel in the barn, and hired a local rent-a-drunk to dig a 36" trench to hold the conduit.  Probably overkill, but I banged an 8' ground rod in outside the wall where the subpanel is mounted- overkill till the barn was struck by lightning a year later, and went straight down to the ground rod with no damage!

This allowed me to have a 240v receptacle in the event I need one, plus plenty of outlets and lights all over the 28x278 barn.


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## Don2222

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Morgan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you want 120volt circuits then you need 10/3 wire...........10/2 and you could only have 240v circuits as you have no neutral wire.  I don't think you need a ground rod......however I am not an electrician so I could be wrong
> on that. I would go about 2' deep and put caution tape at 1' deep, not sure if its code, but a good idea.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just the opposite. 10/3 will give you two hots and a neutral. That will give you the option of having 240 and 120V in the shed. But if this is overkill and all you plan on needing is a lighting + convenience outlet or two, then 10/2 is sufficient for a single 30 amp, 120V feed, though given the distance I would fuse it with a 20 amp breaker in the shed to allow for line loss. You don't need a ground rod, but it wouldn't hurt. Not sure what depth is required for your locale, but I'd go at  least 24".
Click to expand...


Thanks BeGreen for setting us straight. 18" rang a bell in my mind! Ding Ding!! LOL

One more burning question for you BeGreen

If I wire with 10/2 for 120v then how would I wire the top two feed terminals?? Would they be jumpered together??
Actually it seems to me that you are suggesting using one 20 amp breaker and leaving the other slot blank which makes sense?
See pic below


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## Don2222

bluedogz said:
			
		

> When I did exactly the same thing, I used 10/3 to a subpanel in the barn, and hired a local rent-a-drunk to dig a 36" trench to hold the conduit.  Probably overkill, but I banged an 8' ground rod in outside the wall where the subpanel is mounted- overkill till the barn was struck by lightning a year later, and went straight down to the ground rod with no damage!
> 
> This allowed me to have a 240v receptacle in the event I need one, plus plenty of outlets and lights all over the 28x278 barn.



Cool bluedogz.

How many amps is the sub panel? How many circuits?


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## begreen

Don2222 said:
			
		

> BeGreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Morgan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you want 120volt circuits then you need 10/3 wire...........10/2 and you could only have 240v circuits as you have no neutral wire.  I don't think you need a ground rod......however I am not an electrician so I could be wrong
> on that. I would go about 2' deep and put caution tape at 1' deep, not sure if its code, but a good idea.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just the opposite. 10/3 will give you two hots and a neutral. That will give you the option of having 240 and 120V in the shed. But if this is overkill and all you plan on needing is a lighting + convenience outlet or two, then 10/2 is sufficient for a single 30 amp, 120V feed, though given the distance I would fuse it with a 20 amp breaker in the shed to allow for line loss. You don't need a ground rod, but it wouldn't hurt. Not sure what depth is required for your locale, but I'd go at  least 24".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thanks BeGreen for setting us straight. 18" rang a bell in my mind! Ding Ding!! LOL
> 
> One more burning question for you BeGreen
> 
> If I wire with 10/2 for 120v then how would I wire the top two feed terminals?? Would they be jumpered together??
> Actually it seems to me that you are suggesting using one 20 amp breaker and leaving the other slot blank which makes sense?
> See pic below
Click to expand...


Yes, you are correct. But I don't know what the loads are going to be in the shed. If there will be multiple heavy loads running simultaneously, then running the 10/3, 240v feed would make more sense for the two circuits. But if just lighting and a few outlets then running them off a single 20 amp breaker is fine.


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## Hunderliggur

Rules of thumb: 15A 14 GA, 20A 12 GA, 30A 10GA.
SINGLE point of ground in a residential system at the main electrical panel.
If you want/need lightning protection there are specific ways to do this other than grounding the sub panel.

I am installing 450 feet of underground power on my farm right now.  10-3 is so much fun to work with!   For longer runs, upsize the wire gauge: 20A > 100 Feet = 10 GA instead of 12.

And I would run two circuits using the 10-3: a 30A 240 breaker in the main panel and 2 x 20A 120V breakers in the subpanel.


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## jamierah

I'd run the 10/3 it gives you twice the available power for a little extra cost. Install a 30amp 220v breaker in the house and then put 15 or 20amp breakers in the shed. If you go 24" deep you don't need a conduit but it might be worth thinking about burying a 1.5" or larger conduit so if you change your mind later you can pull a bigger wire and upgrade your service without digging a new trench. No ground rod is necessary if you have a ground wire running back to the ground in the main panel.

150' rent a trencher for your back's sake.


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## nate379

Subpanel is going to need ground rod.  Might need 2 of them depending on local code... most places do require 2 now a days.  Also need ground from main to subpanel.... so for a 240v run you need the 2 hots, 1 neutral and 1 ground.  120v the same minus 1 hot.

I could pull out the book and tell you where it says it but I don't have it with me.


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## Don2222

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Don2222 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BeGreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Morgan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you want 120volt circuits then you need 10/3 wire...........10/2 and you could only have 240v circuits as you have no neutral wire.  I don't think you need a ground rod......however I am not an electrician so I could be wrong
> on that. I would go about 2' deep and put caution tape at 1' deep, not sure if its code, but a good idea.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just the opposite. 10/3 will give you two hots and a neutral. That will give you the option of having 240 and 120V in the shed. But if this is overkill and all you plan on needing is a lighting + convenience outlet or two, then 10/2 is sufficient for a single 30 amp, 120V feed, though given the distance I would fuse it with a 20 amp breaker in the shed to allow for line loss. You don't need a ground rod, but it wouldn't hurt. Not sure what depth is required for your locale, but I'd go at  least 24".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thanks BeGreen for setting us straight. 18" rang a bell in my mind! Ding Ding!! LOL
> 
> One more burning question for you BeGreen
> 
> If I wire with 10/2 for 120v then how would I wire the top two feed terminals?? Would they be jumpered together??
> Actually it seems to me that you are suggesting using one 20 amp breaker and leaving the other slot blank which makes sense?
> See pic below
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, you are correct. But I don't know what the loads are going to be in the shed. If there will be multiple heavy loads running simultaneously, then running the 10/3, 240v feed would make more sense for the two circuits. But if just lighting and a few outlets then running them off a single 20 amp breaker is fine.
Click to expand...


Thanks again BeGreen

  I think I will go for the 10/3 UF-B and 2 15 amp breakers in the sub panel since the sub panel buss is rated for 30a and connect that into a 30 amp breaker on the main panel. This way I will have enough for almost any load.


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## Morgan

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Morgan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you want 120volt circuits then you need 10/3 wire...........10/2 and you could only have 240v circuits as you have no neutral wire.  I don't think you need a ground rod......however I am not an electrician so I could be wrong
> on that. I would go about 2' deep and put caution tape at 1' deep, not sure if its code, but a good idea.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just the opposite. 10/3 will give you two hots and a neutral. That will give you the option of having 240 and 120V in the shed. But if this is overkill and all you plan on needing is a lighting + convenience outlet or two, then 10/2 is sufficient for a single 30 amp, 120V feed, though given the distance I would fuse it with a 20 amp breaker in the shed to allow for line loss. You don't need a ground rod, but it wouldn't hurt. Not sure what depth is required for your locale, but I'd go at  least 24".
Click to expand...


Yea I wasn't thinking about just sending 120 out there, most sub panels I am used to have provisions for 2 hots and 1 Neutral and Earth ground, giving you the choice of 120 or 240.  If it was me I would run 10/3 just in case I had a need for 220/240 in the future.  Compressors, welders and electric heat would all be reasons for 10/3 to be ran now and have to over with.


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## davmor

NATE379 said:
			
		

> Subpanel is going to need ground rod.  Might need 2 of them depending on local code... most places do require 2 now a days.  Also need ground from main to subpanel.... so for a 240v run you need the 2 hots, 1 neutral and 1 ground.  120v the same minus 1 hot.
> 
> I could pull out the book and tell you where it says it but I don't have it with me.


This is the way I did my 100 amp subpanel in my barn. Better to be safe than sorry.


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## smoke show

I'd like to see some pics of said 150' hand dug trench.


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## jharkin

Hunderliggur said:
			
		

> SINGLE point of ground in a residential system at the main electrical panel.



+ 1

This is a VERY important point. Ask any professional electrician for confirmation.


Never never never  bond neutral and ground anywhere else then at the service entrance. If you bond it in the sub neutral current can flow back to the main via the bare ground wire. If you have bad luck and have a loose connection of that ground upstream you can end up with a hot ground.  Very dangerous.

Did I mention don't ever bond hte ground in a subpanel?


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## nate379

No less hand dug in the middle of winter?!  At this point of the year I'd probably just put the wire over the top of the snow and not mess with it till the ground thawed out... or rent a backhoe/mini excavator at least!

OP, you better be buying your son some beer and steak dinners!




			
				smoke show said:
			
		

> I'd like to see some pics of said 150' hand dug trench.



Oh for the question on the ground rod, put in the 2 rods and connect with copper wire.  Usually you use a smaller wire than the main running in, but being it's just #10 wire for the main, you probably don't want to go smaller.


You still haven't said what you are powering in there.


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## begreen

Don2222 said:
			
		

> BeGreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, you are correct. But I don't know what the loads are going to be in the shed. If there will be multiple heavy loads running simultaneously, then running the 10/3, 240v feed would make more sense for the two circuits. But if just lighting and a few outlets then running them off a single 20 amp breaker is fine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks again BeGreen
> 
> I think I will go for the 10/3 UF-B and 2 15 amp breakers in the sub panel since the sub panel buss is rated for 30a and connect that into a 30 amp breaker on the main panel. This way I will have enough for almost any load.
Click to expand...


As long as you wire the the 2 circuits with #12 wire in the shed you can use 20 amp breakers. I would recommend this if you are going to be running multiple loads like a 12" saw and shop vac for example. The load calc is not split ( 30amps / 2.) Actually each 120v leg has the potential to carry 30 amps. The current alternates between the two legs 60 times per second.


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## oldspark

davmor said:
			
		

> NATE379 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Subpanel is going to need ground rod.  Might need 2 of them depending on local code... most places do require 2 now a days.  Also need ground from main to subpanel.... so for a 240v run you need the 2 hots, 1 neutral and 1 ground.  120v the same minus 1 hot.
> 
> I could pull out the book and tell you where it says it but I don't have it with me.
> 
> 
> 
> This is the way I did my 100 amp subpanel in my barn. Better to be safe than sorry.
Click to expand...

 Yes that is correct, other wise you could fry the the wires if there is a problem and the ground is back at the main panel, thats why there is supposed to be a ground rod at the sub panel especially when it it 150 feet from the other panel, some good info in this post and some so not, hope you can sort it out.


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## oldspark

Make sure you do your voltage drop calculations for that long of run.


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## Hass

holy smokes, tons of contradicting info here.

my question is, why no electrical permit?
If you got one for the shed, why not for the electric? Electric requires a permit 95% of the time when doing new work. In some areas around me, homeowners aren't even allowed to pull permits and do it themselves... You need a licensed electrician to pull the permit and perform the work. Easiest way to get the correct answers would be call up the inspector and he could tell you in a few minutes.


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## oldspark

I agree Hass but some bad info from you, you have to have a ground rod at the sub panel. The wire in a conduit is a good idea, then down the road you can up grade or pull new wire if there is a problem.


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## Hass

oldspark said:
			
		

> I agree Hass but some bad info from you, you have to have a ground rod at the sub panel. The wire in a conduit is a good idea, then down the road you can up grade or pull new wire if there is a problem.



Like I said, if he would call the local inspector (or electrical inspectors if they are different from his town inspector) all of this could be solved easily and to the code per his area.

There are variables, lots of them if there should be a ground rod driven in or not.
Typically you don't ever ground the neutral in a sub panel. For a DIYer to figure out what to ground and what not, that might be a bit tricky.

and you can actually just fish the wire back through PVC if you're feeling adventurous. Put a piece of cable or something on the one end... Pull the old wire all the way out. Attach new wire to the cable that you just pulled through when you removed the old wire... Then pull the wire cable back through. If there's not a lot of bends it's usually pretty easy. Just gotta make sure you attach it really good.


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## oldspark

I may be wrong but I think you ground a sub panel every where. Not sure why you would want to take the chance of burning up the run of wires if there was a short to ground, the neutral will be grounded in a sub panel, never heard of not grounding one because you have a ground rod.


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## oldspark

I looked it up and they want the neutral to float (I hate floating neutrals) but the sub panel is supposed to have a ground rod, how you define sub panel can be an issue also.


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## Hass

oldspark said:
			
		

> I looked it up and they want the neutral to float (I hate floating neutrals) but the sub panel is supposed to have a ground rod, how you define sub panel can be an issue also.



Yeah, that's why I suggested he just call up the inspector and ask what he wants. Considering it's 150' feet away he should most likely have one. But, if it's wired improperly I have a feeling the results would be worse than if he did not have a ground rod at all.


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## Don2222

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Don2222 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BeGreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, you are correct. But I don't know what the loads are going to be in the shed. If there will be multiple heavy loads running simultaneously, then running the 10/3, 240v feed would make more sense for the two circuits. But if just lighting and a few outlets then running them off a single 20 amp breaker is fine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks again BeGreen
> 
> I think I will go for the 10/3 UF-B and 2 15 amp breakers in the sub panel since the sub panel buss is rated for 30a and connect that into a 30 amp breaker on the main panel. This way I will have enough for almost any load.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As long as you wire the the 2 circuits with #12 wire in the shed you can use 20 amp breakers. I would recommend this if you are going to be running multiple loads like a 12" saw and shop vac for example. The load calc is not split ( 30amps / 2.) Actually each 120v leg has the potential to carry 30 amps. The current alternates between the two legs 60 times per second.
Click to expand...


Thanks again BeGreen, you are the expert!! I did get the 10/3 UF-B. Originally I was at Home Depot in Methuen MA at their rental shop. So I checked and they had the 10/3 UF-B for $2.07 per foot and 6% sales tax! So I said keep it and went to Lowes in Salem NH. It was $1.94 per foot except their 1000 ft roll was so tangled they got 78 feet off and could not get anymore!! Luckily a real electrician customer came by and showed them how to untangle it by removing the roll from the rack! By then there were 4 Lowes employees there after explaining to the dept mgr Jeff what had happened! So I complained to Jeff that it has been 1 hour to get my wire and if he could do something! So he told me I could have it for $1.50 per foot!! Then the Lowes charge card takes another 5% off!! 

Did I get a good deal??


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## btuser

oldspark said:
			
		

> davmor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NATE379 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Subpanel is going to need ground rod. Might need 2 of them depending on local code... most places do require 2 now a days. Also need ground from main to subpanel.... so for a 240v run you need the 2 hots, 1 neutral and 1 ground. 120v the same minus 1 hot.
> 
> I could pull out the book and tell you where it says it but I don't have it with me.
> 
> 
> 
> This is the way I did my 100 amp subpanel in my barn. Better to be safe than sorry.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes that is correct, other wise you could fry the the wires if there is a problem and the ground is back at the main panel, that's why there is supposed to be a ground rod at the sub panel especially when it it 150 feet from the other panel, some good info in this post and some so not, hope you can sort it out.
Click to expand...


The distance from the main panel is the key, also depends on whether or not the building is attached. Installing a ground rod at a sub panel can do more harm than good in the right situation. Things like this are better left to the AHJ. He/she may have experience with your local, when the end result can depend on such subtle nuances as soil conditions and knowledge of city water projects. New main lines are plastic. 

My knowledge of grounding is biased towards telecommunications. Because we were always plugging into power and had our own system ground we were forced to bond to the main electrical ground with a minimum of 6 gauge solid copper. This was to avoid a grounding conflict. There should be only one path to ground, and if you've got two you need to bond them together but NEC says a minimum of 6 gauge solid copper . When I did my last shed I ran 10 gauge in conduit to a sub panel. 2 hots and a neutral and 2 ground rods at the sub panel. No ground back to the panel. My inspector said this was the way to go, otherwise you need to bond the two grounds with a minimum 6 gauge solid copper conductor. Was he agreeing with me because his mom was my neighbor and I cut her grass for free? Possible but there is probably no more confusing subject in the NEC than grounding. 

My pool was installed in 2007. The electrician installed a 30 amp sub and ran the ground 200' back to the house with no ground rod, no expansion joints at the house/pool, used mc outside to wire the pump, and a couple other things I'd get nit-picky about if I was the one who paid for it (house came with the pool). This work was inspected and passed.


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## nate379

When I did my shed I just bought a roll, I want to say it worked out to around $1.25/ft.  What I didn't use I sold.  The stuff they cut is fine if you just need a few feet, but if you are close to a full roll length it's much cheaper to buy a roll instead.


As far as how to wire it up, I'm done with posting on here... I could say snow is white and someone would argue it.  I do agree that some locations have different codes, but please check out the NEC for what you need.




			
				Don2222 said:
			
		

> BeGreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don2222 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BeGreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, you are correct. But I don't know what the loads are going to be in the shed. If there will be multiple heavy loads running simultaneously, then running the 10/3, 240v feed would make more sense for the two circuits. But if just lighting and a few outlets then running them off a single 20 amp breaker is fine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks again BeGreen
> 
> I think I will go for the 10/3 UF-B and 2 15 amp breakers in the sub panel since the sub panel buss is rated for 30a and connect that into a 30 amp breaker on the main panel. This way I will have enough for almost any load.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As long as you wire the the 2 circuits with #12 wire in the shed you can use 20 amp breakers. I would recommend this if you are going to be running multiple loads like a 12" saw and shop vac for example. The load calc is not split ( 30amps / 2.) Actually each 120v leg has the potential to carry 30 amps. The current alternates between the two legs 60 times per second.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thanks again BeGreen, you are the expert!! I did get the 10/3 UF-B. Originally I was at Home Depot in Methuen MA at their rental shop. So I checked and they had the 10/3 UF-B for $2.07 per foot and 6% sales tax! So I said keep it and went to Lowes in Salem NH. It was $1.94 per foot except their 1000 ft roll was so tangled they got 78 feet off and could not get anymore!! Luckily a real electrician customer came by and showed them how to untangle it by removing the roll from the rack! By then there were 4 Lowes employees there after explaining to the dept mgr Jeff what had happened! So I complained to Jeff that it has been 1 hour to get my wire and if he could do something! So he told me I could have it for $1.50 per foot!! Then the Lowes charge card takes another 5% off!!
> 
> Did I get a good deal??
Click to expand...


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## oldspark

Nate I dont blame you and some times I feel the same way, the ground rod is a given if the sub panel is in another building and I believe every code SHOULD be the same no matter what the inspector says (they can be wrong and have been in many cases so you have to have the code book to show them). The "floating neutral" as they call it (every where not just here) is not a true floating neutral IMHO because it is grounded back at the main panel so I understand not grounding it again but the ground rod is called for on every site I looked and is in the NEC. There can be some instances where you may not have to use one if there are other lines (gas, comm.) between the two buildings. I just hope the OP does his own fact finding and not rely on answers here.


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## Don2222

btuser said:
			
		

> oldspark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> davmor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NATE379 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Subpanel is going to need ground rod. Might need 2 of them depending on local code... most places do require 2 now a days. Also need ground from main to subpanel.... so for a 240v run you need the 2 hots, 1 neutral and 1 ground. 120v the same minus 1 hot.
> 
> I could pull out the book and tell you where it says it but I don't have it with me.
> 
> 
> 
> This is the way I did my 100 amp subpanel in my barn. Better to be safe than sorry.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes that is correct, other wise you could fry the the wires if there is a problem and the ground is back at the main panel, that's why there is supposed to be a ground rod at the sub panel especially when it it 150 feet from the other panel, some good info in this post and some so not, hope you can sort it out.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The distance from the main panel is the key, also depends on whether or not the building is attached. Installing a ground rod at a sub panel can do more harm than good in the right situation. Things like this are better left to the AHJ. He/she may have experience with your local, when the end result can depend on such subtle nuances as soil conditions and knowledge of city water projects. New main lines are plastic.
> 
> My knowledge of grounding is biased towards telecommunications. Because we were always plugging into power and had our own system ground we were forced to bond to the main electrical ground with a minimum of 6 gauge solid copper. This was to avoid a grounding conflict. There should be only one path to ground, and if you've got two you need to bond them together but NEC says a minimum of 6 gauge solid copper . When I did my last shed I ran 10 gauge in conduit to a sub panel. 2 hots and a neutral and 2 ground rods at the sub panel. No ground back to the panel. My inspector said this was the way to go, otherwise you need to bond the two grounds with a minimum 6 gauge solid copper conductor. Was he agreeing with me because his mom was my neighbor and I cut her grass for free? Possible but there is probably no more confusing subject in the NEC than grounding.
> 
> My pool was installed in 2007. The electrician installed a 30 amp sub and ran the ground 200' back to the house with no ground rod, no expansion joints at the house/pool, used mc outside to wire the pump, and a couple other things I'd get nit-picky about if I was the one who paid for it (house came with the pool). This work was inspected and passed.
Click to expand...


Wow, you are 100% correct on the grounds! The best way for everyone to understand this, is the harm that can happen when the ground is incorrect. I have that example. When we first moved into our home years ago we had an old harvest gold color Glenwood stove in the kitchen. My wife was cleaning one day and as she touch the stove control at the same time wiped the counter with a wet sponge and got a wicked electrical shock!

Well I did many hours of research to see why this happened. I found that the way these old stoves were made is this:
All the electrical components in the stove were grounded at different places to the steel shell. The steel shell was then connected to the neutral. A 3 wire cable with 2 hots and a neutral was then ran to the panel!!

The front stove control that my wife touched on the control panel was grounded to the panel and the panel was connected electrically to the rest of the stove with 2 small screws on each end. Well the stove was 20 years old and the screws rusted!
So my wife became the closest point electrically to ground and the current ran right thru her

So the 2 points you made should be very clear to everyone:
1. Best to have only one ground for the current to flow!
2. The ground should be close to the whole unit!

I also found that the new stove I purchased now has 4 wires.
One ground
One Neutral
Two Hots

The new kitchen stoves now have all the electrical component grounds all connected together and should be wired to the Neutral wire.
The stove shell is now separate from the electrical components and is connected to the Ground Wire.

The ground and neutral and the 2 hots are run to the electric panel!!

One ground and separate from the neutral!!

So even though a ground rod could be used closer to the stove, it does not make such a difference that it is a safety hazard.

The shed is very similar to the stove unless it is very far away.

My shed is less than 50 feet from the house, but the circuit panel is on the other end of the house.


----------



## chrisf

Last time I knew all sub panels need a isolated ground. If not you can pick up the kit and install it in the sub. It is supposed to be sperate from the nuteral. They are less than 10 bucks for the ground kit. On 10 3 wire you have 3 condutors and a ground  a ground wire is not counted  as a conductor. So in 10/3 you have a black red  white and a ground wire. In 10/2 you would have a black and white and ground wire. you should not have to have a earth ground at the sub since you have a ground wire feeding from the main to the sub panel .


----------



## davmor

The ground and neutral should only be bonded at a main panel, never at a subpanel.


----------



## nate379

Yes they do need a ground, but your post is contradicting itself.   You say it needs an isolated ground but your last line you say it doesn't.  There needs to be a ground run from the main panel to the sub panel and also a ground from the sub panel to the ground.  Ground rods, EUFER, whatever is approved in your location.



I'm not an electrical engineer, all I know is if you look in the 2008 NEC it's under 250.32.



			
				bkfc255 said:
			
		

> Last time I knew all sub panels need a isolated ground. If not you can pick up the kit and install it in the sub. It is supposed to be separate from the neutral. They are less than 10 bucks for the ground kit. On 10 3 wire you have 3 conductors and a ground  a ground wire is not counted  as a conductor. So in 10/3 you have a black red  white and a ground wire. In 10/2 you would have a black and white and ground wire. you should not have to have a earth ground at the sub since you have a ground wire feeding from the main to the sub panel .


----------



## davmor

bkfc255 said:
			
		

> Last time I knew all sub panels need a isolated ground. If not you can pick up the kit and install it in the sub. It is supposed to be sperate from the nuteral. They are less than 10 bucks for the ground kit. On 10 3 wire you have 3 condutors and a ground  a ground wire is not counted  as a conductor. So in 10/3 you have a black red  white and a ground wire. In 10/2 you would have a black and white and ground wire. you should not have to have a earth ground at the sub since you have a ground wire feeding from the main to the sub panel .


Some local inspectors do not require a ground at the sub panel, mine did. Glad I did it. Seems like overkill, but it is better to be safe.


----------



## begreen

oldspark said:
			
		

> Nate I dont blame you and some times I feel the same way, the ground rod is a given if the sub panel is in another building and I believe every code SHOULD be the same no matter what the inspector says (they can be wrong and have been in many cases so you have to have the code book to show them). The "floating neutral" as they call it (every where not just here) is not a true floating neutral IMHO because it is grounded back at the main panel so I understand not grounding it again but the ground rod is called for on every site I looked and is in the NEC. There can be some instances where you may not have to use one if there are other lines (gas, comm.) between the two buildings. I just hope the OP does his own fact finding and not rely on answers here.



Code changes. We redid our main and panel when adding the grid-tied solar. One of the changes was to completely float the neutral from the ground bus. It was in common before, but now the neutral bus is independent.


----------



## oldspark

BeGreen said:
			
		

> oldspark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nate I dont blame you and some times I feel the same way, the ground rod is a given if the sub panel is in another building and I believe every code SHOULD be the same no matter what the inspector says (they can be wrong and have been in many cases so you have to have the code book to show them). The "floating neutral" as they call it (every where not just here) is not a true floating neutral IMHO because it is grounded back at the main panel so I understand not grounding it again but the ground rod is called for on every site I looked and is in the NEC. There can be some instances where you may not have to use one if there are other lines (gas, comm.) between the two buildings. I just hope the OP does his own fact finding and not rely on answers here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Code changes. We redid our main and panel when adding the grid-tied solar. One of the changes was to completely float the neutral from the ground bus. It was in common before, but now the neutral bus is independent.
Click to expand...

 I have been an electrician for many years and I understand what they are doing, the neutral is grounded at the main panel and not again on the load side so it all makes sense to me. I assume your neutral is grounded some where because that is not good to have a true floating neutral and NOBODY does than or any code any where. Is that what you are saying that your neutral is not grounded any where even in the main panel?


----------



## begreen

We have two main panels now. Well, the house main panel is now technically a sub-panel. We gutted it, and floated the neutral in that panel. The main breaker panel is now outside and IIRC, the neutral is bonded there and only there. If it's dry out tomorrow I may pop the cover and take a confirming look.


----------



## oldspark

BeGreen said:
			
		

> We have two main panels now. Well, the house main panel is now technically a sub-panel. We gutted it, and floated the neutral in that panel. The main breaker panel is now outside and IIRC, the neutral is bonded there and only there. If it's dry out tomorrow I may pop the cover and take a confirming look.


Cool, I understand now and you have what you are supposed to I believe.


----------



## Don2222

Hello

Here is post with alot of info. Especially on THHN/THWN in conduit
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/wiring/msg050411042530.html

*Has anyone done used THHN/THWN wire??*


----------



## chrisf

What I am saying is you have a separte ground bar and nutureal bar in the sub panel. they both run to the same bar in the main panel. And would you run another ground cable and rod in a house if you put a sub panel in on the second floor? Its no different you are just running a longer distance from the main panel. I may not have explained myself in my posting your ground goes back to the main panel so what is the need for a second one at the sub right to ground.


----------



## oldspark

bkfc255 said:
			
		

> What I am saying is you have a separte ground bar and nutureal bar in the sub panel. they both run to the same bar in the main panel. And would you run another ground cable and rod in a house if you put a sub panel in on the second floor? Its no different you are just running a longer distance from the main panel. I may not have explained myself in my posting your ground goes back to the main panel so what is the need for a second one at the sub right to ground.


"This is also sort of why a sub-panel in a detatched structure must also have a seperate ground rod. The electrical potential of the ground can vary from place to place. There can be a voltage difference between the ground under your house and the ground under your neibor's house. So when you add a sub-panel in a detatched structure, you want to make sure the voltage difference between ground wires (and appliace frames and pipes) and the ground AT THAT STRUCTURE are the same. To do so, you attatch a new ground rod to the ground bar of the sub-panel."
 Not sure if this is any help to you but the best explanation I could find.


----------



## nate379

No because the sub panel would be in the same building.  Only need to run separate ground if the subpanel is in a detached building.

I don't know the exact reason why, I just know it's per the NEC and I wasn't going to argue it to save $25 (2 ground rods and some copper wire).  I know it's been code for a long time, my Dad put in ground rod when he built the detached shop/garage in 1990.  He had his cousin who is an electrician wire it.

And yes you don't bond ground and neutral at the sub panel.  Again I don't know the reason why, just that's the way it's done.  I'm sure if I went to school for this I would understand it better.  I'm just a jack of all trades so to speak and have wired up a few buildings.




			
				bkfc255 said:
			
		

> What I am saying is you have a separate ground bar and nutureal bar in the sub panel. they both run to the same bar in the main panel. And would you run another ground cable and rod in a house if you put a sub panel in on the second floor? Its no different you are just running a longer distance from the main panel. I may not have explained myself in my posting your ground goes back to the main panel so what is the need for a second one at the sub right to ground.




Anyhow, for the original poster, I haven't seen where you answered what exactly what going to be powered in this shed?

You could save money if it's just 120v lights and a few outlets by not running a subpanel and running everything on 1 circuit.  This is permissible by code.

I did not do this in my shed because I ran 30 amp 240v since I have my air compressor in there.  Since I put in a panel I put separate circuits for the lights, outlets and outside light and outlet.  Though honestly it could have all gone on one.
I have worked in some garages that the whole thing was fed off just a 15 amp breaker.
Mine currently has 1 breaker for the door opener and lights and 1 other for the outlets, just 15 amp, 14 gauge wire.  Rest of the house is almost all 12 gauge, not sure why they did that.  There are a decent amount of outlets too, 2 on each wall.


----------



## bluedogz

Don2222 said:
			
		

> bluedogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When I did exactly the same thing, I used 10/3 to a subpanel in the barn, and hired a local rent-a-drunk to dig a 36" trench to hold the conduit.  Probably overkill, but I banged an 8' ground rod in outside the wall where the subpanel is mounted- overkill till the barn was struck by lightning a year later, and went straight down to the ground rod with no damage!
> 
> This allowed me to have a 240v receptacle in the event I need one, plus plenty of outlets and lights all over the 28x278 barn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cool bluedogz.
> 
> How many amps is the sub panel? How many circuits?
Click to expand...


50A goes to the panel, there are 3 circuits in the panel running 1 outlet apiece, 1 more running 3 overhead fluoro fixtures, and one specifically for a window A/C if I ever get around to buying one.

Oh, yeah- the barn is 28x28, not 28x278, in case anyone didn't catch that.


----------



## oldspark

For the OP, this article covers a lot of info for a sub panel.
http://ths.gardenweb.com/faq/lists/wiring/2005015726007600.html


----------



## jharkin

Don2222 said:
			
		

> Wow, you are 100% correct on the grounds! The best way for everyone to understand this, is the harm that can happen when the ground is incorrect. I have that example. When we first moved into our home years ago we had an old harvest gold color Glenwood stove in the kitchen. My wife was cleaning one day and as she touch the stove control at the same time wiped the counter with a wet sponge and got a wicked electrical shock!
> 
> Well I did many hours of research to see why this happened. I found that the way these old stoves were made is this:
> All the electrical components in the stove were grounded at different places to the steel shell. The steel shell was then connected to the neutral. A 3 wire cable with 2 hots and a neutral was then ran to the panel!!
> 
> The front stove control that my wife touched on the control panel was grounded to the panel and the panel was connected electrically to the rest of the stove with 2 small screws on each end. Well the stove was 20 years old and the screws rusted!
> So my wife became the closest point electrically to ground and the current ran right thru her
> 
> So the 2 points you made should be very clear to everyone:
> 1. Best to have only one ground for the current to flow!
> 2. The ground should be close to the whole unit!
> 
> I also found that the new stove I purchased now has 4 wires.
> One ground
> One Neutral
> Two Hots
> 
> The new kitchen stoves now have all the electrical component grounds all connected together and should be wired to the Neutral wire.
> The stove shell is now separate from the electrical components and is connected to the Ground Wire.
> 
> The ground and neutral and the 2 hots are run to the electric panel!!
> 
> One ground and separate from the neutral!!
> 
> So even though a ground rod could be used closer to the stove, it does not make such a difference that it is a safety hazard.
> 
> The shed is very similar to the stove unless it is very far away.
> 
> My shed is less than 50 feet from the house, but the circuit panel is on the other end of the house.




Don I believe you are confusing the role of neutral and ground.

- Neutral is the return conductor for 120v current at zero volts. 
- The "ground" in a residential AC system is a safety feature. It NEVER carries current except when there is a fault. 


Before 1996 the NEC treated ranges and dryers as a special case where the neutral wire was allowed to do double duty as a ground. So the frame would be tied to the neutral in the 3 wire (hot/hot/neutral) plug. 

I'm actually surprised your wife got a shock even on the old rage. The only part of a stove that uses the neutral are the 120v controls and even on older units I believe this neutral connection was wired directly back to the terminal block with just a single ground jumper connecting neutral to the frame.  I wonder if there was another short in that control panel? (not that it matters now)....


----------



## Don2222

jharkin said:
			
		

> Don2222 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, you are 100% correct on the grounds! The best way for everyone to understand this, is the harm that can happen when the ground is incorrect. I have that example. When we first moved into our home years ago we had an old harvest gold color Glenwood stove in the kitchen. My wife was cleaning one day and as she touch the stove control at the same time wiped the counter with a wet sponge and got a wicked electrical shock!
> 
> Well I did many hours of research to see why this happened. I found that the way these old stoves were made is this:
> All the electrical components in the stove were grounded at different places to the steel shell. The steel shell was then connected to the neutral. A 3 wire cable with 2 hots and a neutral was then ran to the panel!!
> 
> The front stove control that my wife touched on the control panel was grounded to the panel and the panel was connected electrically to the rest of the stove with 2 small screws on each end. Well the stove was 20 years old and the screws rusted!
> So my wife became the closest point electrically to ground and the current ran right thru her
> 
> So the 2 points you made should be very clear to everyone:
> 1. Best to have only one ground for the current to flow!
> 2. The ground should be close to the whole unit!
> 
> I also found that the new stove I purchased now has 4 wires.
> One ground
> One Neutral
> Two Hots
> 
> The new kitchen stoves now have all the electrical component grounds all connected together and should be wired to the Neutral wire.
> The stove shell is now separate from the electrical components and is connected to the Ground Wire.
> 
> The ground and neutral and the 2 hots are run to the electric panel!!
> 
> One ground and separate from the neutral!!
> 
> So even though a ground rod could be used closer to the stove, it does not make such a difference that it is a safety hazard.
> 
> The shed is very similar to the stove unless it is very far away.
> 
> My shed is less than 50 feet from the house, but the circuit panel is on the other end of the house.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don I believe you are confusing the role of neutral and ground.
> 
> - Neutral is the return conductor for 120v current at zero volts.
> - The "ground" in a residential AC system is a safety feature. It NEVER carries current except when there is a fault.
Click to expand...


No, I am not confusing anything. What you said above is correct in the current design of all AC electrical appliances. However it was not always that way. The house I grew up in that was built in 1890 had only 2 prong AC outlets and both prongs were the same size. There was no separate ground. Ground in those days was the return for the 120 and the ground!! Now that we know better, what you said is correct!

My wife got a shock because the return current from the front control could not return thru the rusty screw on the control panel and went thru her instead!!

Anyways, I did get the 10/3-UF-B and the 27 foot trench I dug went from 24" near the shed to 36" next to the house because the ground slopes up toward the house! Well below the 18" code for this area. See pics. We got the wire pulled just before it got dark today! Tomorrow I can make the connections. 

See pics Below. Click to enlarge


----------



## begreen

Must be something is not showing in the picture. Is that really a 150ft run? Our greenhouse is a 75 ft run and much longer than what's showing.


----------



## Don2222

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Must be something is not showing in the picture. Is that really a 150ft run? Our greenhouse is a 75 ft run and much longer than what's showing.



I never said it was a 150 foot run, just that I purchased 150 ft of wire which was very much over estimated. The house is 42 feet long and the trench is 27 feet long but it also goes 10 feet up the side of the house and a few more twists and turns to get to the circuit panel. Maybe 100 foot should have been purchased. Just not a good estimate.

Anyways, I wanted to ask you BeGreen if I put two 20 Amp Breakers in the sub panel. Then would the 30 Amp breaker in the main panel still be enough?

Thanks again
Don


----------



## nate379

30 amp in the main panel is correct for the #10 wire.

If you put 20 amp breakers in the sub panel you need to use #12 wire on those 2 breakers.  Or could use #14 wire and 15 amp breakers.


----------



## nate379

30 amp in the main panel is correct for the #10 wire.

If you put 20 amp breakers in the sub panel you need to use #12 wire on those 2 breakers.  Or could use #14 wire and 15 amp breakers.

What are you powering in that shed?  If it's just a few lights/outlets, I would not run a panel and just do everything on one circuit.  This is legal to do.

A #12 wire would be fine for that as well.


----------



## oldspark

I dont know if code will allow 2 20 amp breakers on one 30 amp breaker. When ever I wire in a building like you are I always try and go bigger so down the road I am covered but depending on what you are running in the shed you should be fine I would think. Do you have to follow a code in your area?


----------



## Don2222

NATE379 said:
			
		

> 30 amp in the main panel is correct for the #10 wire.
> 
> If you put 20 amp breakers in the sub panel you need to use #12 wire on those 2 breakers.  Or could use #14 wire and 15 amp breakers.
> 
> What are you powering in that shed?  If it's just a few lights/outlets, I would not run a panel and just do everything on one circuit.  This is legal to do.
> 
> A #12 wire would be fine for that as well.



Hi Nate

Not sure what I will have in the shed. A table saw and a sliding mitre saw plus outlets and lights. Also a heater.

So I though since the box has two slots I may as well use them.

One last question?
Since I am using underground wire UF-B is it acceptable to protect the wire before it goes into the ground with a little conduit??
See picture below:

P.S., The second wire is 14-3 to a 3way switch in the house so I can switch on the lights before I go to the shed at night!


----------



## nate379

The #10 wire feeding the sub needs a 30 amp breaker and if 20 amp breakers are in the subpanel, those circuits need to be #12 wire. 

Add up the breakers in your house panel, it's going to be more than the main breaker.  Figure avg house with 100-125 amp service.  

Electric dryer 30 amp, electric stove 50 amp.  Dishwasher 20 amp, kitchen outlets, 20 amps each, 3 bedrooms, 15 amps each, living room 15 amp, dining room 15 amp, fridge 20 amp.

I'm missing a bunch of stuff but that is over 200 amps just right there. 






			
				oldspark said:
			
		

> I dont know if code will allow 2 20 amp breakers on one 30 amp breaker. When ever I wire in a building like you are I always try and go bigger so down the road I am covered but depending on what you are running in the shed you should be fine I would think. Do you have to follow a code in your area?




Don yes you can run it in conduit.  You can do the whole think or just like you have.  That 14-3 is UF wire as well?  You can do other types of wire but they will require a full run of conduit.
The UF wire doesn't like UV rays, though some of it now does have that rating I believe.  I worked on a building some years back that they owner had stapled the UF to the side of the building and 


  I would also put a 90* sweep on the bottom in your pic so the wire isn't kinked


----------



## nate379

Oh while doing some reading for this thread I realized that it's ok to run UF wire indoors.

Again mis-information from a "pro" master electrician.  I was told that I had to convert to Romex indoors.  The run I did for my shed I went about 40ft across my attic in the garage with reg Romex, down the wall and then tied into the UF wire at the LB connection on the outside wall.  Then did the same at the shed about 100 ft across the yard.  Granted that is still ok and romex is much easier to work with and cheaper, but it still annoys me that I got bad info.

When I moved into my new house I found that they wired my panel from the meter panel which is on the other side of the house with #4 aluminum wire.  All that was on a 125amp breaker!!  #4 aluminum is only rated for 75 amps!
They ended up having to pull that wire out and replace it with the correct wire.

I realized I wasted 300$ on a home inspection when I had to tech the inspector how to look for aluminum wiring.  Really???


----------



## Don2222

NATE379 said:
			
		

> Oh while doing some reading for this thread I realized that it's ok to run UF wire indoors.
> 
> Again mis-information from a "pro" master electrician.  I was told that I had to convert to Romex indoors.  The run I did for my shed I went about 40ft across my attic in the garage with reg Romex, down the wall and then tied into the UF wire at the LB connection on the outside wall.  Then did the same at the shed about 100 ft across the yard.  Granted that is still ok and romex is much easier to work with and cheaper, but it still annoys me that I got bad info.
> 
> When I moved into my new house I found that they wired my panel from the meter panel which is on the other side of the house with #4 aluminum wire.  All that was on a 125amp breaker!!  #4 aluminum is only rated for 75 amps!
> They ended up having to pull that wire out and replace it with the correct wire.
> 
> I realized I wasted 300$ on a home inspection when I had to tech the inspector how to look for aluminum wiring.  Really???



Thanks for the correct info Nate.

I am running the UF-B thru the ceiling in the garage and basement to the other end of the house where the main panel is. What a PITA!

I just took the 90s out at the bottom of the trench because I did not want any moisture collection?


----------



## Don2222

oldspark said:
			
		

> I dont know if code will allow 2 20 amp breakers on one 30 amp breaker. When ever I wire in a building like you are I always try and go bigger so down the road I am covered but depending on what you are running in the shed you should be fine I would think. Do you have to follow a code in your area?



Hello oldspark

Yes I am following the code in my area but connecting to my main panel will be tight. (No more open spaces) However I know what I use and do not use so I know I can sneak the 10-3 in with no trouble. An inspector would probably force me to a 200 amp panel and I cannot afford that right now.

I really need the 2 circuits in the shed. If I run my compressor and have the heater on, I would pop one breaker.


----------



## Don2222

Hello

Thanks again guys, I took your expert advise and returned the 15 amp breakers for the 20 amp breakers!! I would have never know that! You guys are great!!

See pic
1 - 15 amp breakers
2 - 20 amp breakers


----------



## begreen

Well you are not going to like me saying this, but that top romex clamp should be entirely on the outer jacket insulation and not clamping on the wire. If you cut it too short, at least wrap some electrical tape around the wires where the clamp is.


----------



## Don2222

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Well you are not going to like me saying this, but that top romex clamp should be entirely on the outer jacket insulation and not clamping on the wire. If you cut it too short, at least wrap some electrical tape around the wires where the clamp is.



Thanks BeGreen

I appreciate you saying that and suggesting the Tape. I will do that. It is difficult working with that size wire. I had to cut the Load wires shorter than the ground and neutral so they would reach the connectors.

I was wondering about the jacket and clamp. I will do that thanks again.

BTW. I found this nice chart.

http://www.wireityourself.com/wire_sizes.html

See below and click to enlarge


----------



## Don2222

Hello

One more question for the road.

I hooked the sub panel into the main panel today. The shed has it's Juice

The main panel had a 220v 15 amp breaker for the 220v 900 watt kickspace heater in the pellet stove hearth for basement heat if the pellet stove is down. Rarely if ever used. Also on that 15 amp 220v breaker is the central vacuum. The 220v central vac has 70cfm of suction with 2 motors and dual exhaust. I was running straight pipes until my neighbors complained then added mufflers!! Anyways it pulls 11 amps!! The kickspace heater pulls 6 amps.

*So when I tied the 30 amp sub panel with 20 amp breakers in it to this point and I added a 40 amp 220volt breaker in place of the old 15 amp 220v breaker

So if you add 11 + 6 + 20 = 37 amps in which I will never have everything going at once, It should be right!!

My question is this the best way to do it?*

See picture below. Meter set to 250 vac scale and needle is approx half way. 

Click on pic to enlarge


----------



## nate379

Ok I'm not sure I'm following 100%

In your main panel you had a 15 amp 240v breaker that powered a heater and a vac.

Then you pulled out that 15 amp breaker, put in a 40 amp breaker and put your sub panel on that too?

If that is what you did that is not correct at all.

First in most all locations you can't double tap a breaker like that.

2nd a sub panel needs to have it's own breaker in the main panel.

3rd tThe 10-3 wire you ran to your sub is only good for 30 amps, so it needs a 30 amp breaker in the main.  If that 15amp run is wired normal it would be a 14/3 wire, rated only for 15 amps.

That 40 amp breaker would never trip unless you had a complete dead short.  If either the subpanel run or your other run would be overloaded the wiring will melt down and could burn the house down... the breaker would probably never trip.




			
				Don2222 said:
			
		

> Hello
> 
> One more question for the road.
> 
> I hooked the sub panel into the main panel today. The shed has it's Juice
> 
> The main panel had a 220v 15 amp breaker for the 220v 900 watt kickspace heater in the pellet stove hearth for basement heat if the pellet stove is down. Rarely if ever used. Also on that 15 amp 220v breaker is the central vacuum. The 220v central vac has 70cfm of suction with 2 motors and dual exhaust. I was running straight pipes until my neighbors complained then added mufflers!! Anyways it pulls 11 amps!! The kickspace heater pulls 6 amps.
> 
> *So when I tied the 30 amp sub panel with 20 amp breakers in it to this point and I added a 40 amp 220volt breaker in place of the old 15 amp 220v breaker
> 
> So if you add 11 + 6 + 20 = 37 amps in which I will never have everything going at once, It should be right!!
> 
> My question is this the best way to do it?*
> 
> See picture below. Meter set to 250 vac scale and needle is approx half way.
> 
> Click on pic to enlarge


----------



## begreen

Don2222 said:
			
		

> Hello
> 
> One more question for the road.
> 
> I hooked the sub panel into the main panel today. The shed has it's Juice
> 
> The main panel had a 220v 15 amp breaker for the 220v 900 watt kickspace heater in the pellet stove hearth for basement heat if the pellet stove is down. Rarely if ever used. Also on that 15 amp 220v breaker is the central vacuum. The 220v central vac has 70cfm of suction with 2 motors and dual exhaust. I was running straight pipes until my neighbors complained then added mufflers!! Anyways it pulls 11 amps!! The kickspace heater pulls 6 amps.
> 
> *So when I tied the 30 amp sub panel with 20 amp breakers in it to this point and I added a 40 amp 220volt breaker in place of the old 15 amp 220v breaker
> 
> So if you add 11 + 6 + 20 = 37 amps in which I will never have everything going at once, It should be right!!
> 
> My question is this the best way to do it?*
> 
> See picture below. Meter set to 250 vac scale and needle is approx half way.
> 
> Click on pic to enlarge



No, sorry to be blunt, but you are dangerous around electricity. The breaker gets sized to the wiring, not the estimated combined load of multiple circuits that were wired at a lower load and wire gauge.. You have created a dangerous situation in your house. Splicing 3 circuits of mixed wire gauge onto one higher amperage breaker is not allowed and very unsafe. I shudder to think what this panel must look like. For the safety of your home you should get a professional electrician there to review this. 

I see now that there is plenty of slack to do that top romex connection correctly. Insert it deeper into that connector so that it is clamping on the insulation. And last, I see the neutral bonded to the ground at the sub-panel. They should be separate.


----------



## davmor

You cannot have your subpanel ground and neutral bonded. It appears that is what you have done. Not sure on your questions. Maybe a picture of your main panel may help. If you are not sure of your work you may be farther ahead to have someone look at it.


----------



## Don2222

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Don2222 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hello
> 
> One more question for the road.
> 
> I hooked the sub panel into the main panel today. The shed has it's Juice
> 
> The main panel had a 220v 15 amp breaker for the 220v 900 watt kickspace heater in the pellet stove hearth for basement heat if the pellet stove is down. Rarely if ever used. Also on that 15 amp 220v breaker is the central vacuum. The 220v central vac has 70cfm of suction with 2 motors and dual exhaust. I was running straight pipes until my neighbors complained then added mufflers!! Anyways it pulls 11 amps!! The kickspace heater pulls 6 amps.
> 
> *So when I tied the 30 amp sub panel with 20 amp breakers in it to this point and I added a 40 amp 220volt breaker in place of the old 15 amp 220v breaker
> 
> So if you add 11 + 6 + 20 = 37 amps in which I will never have everything going at once, It should be right!!
> 
> My question is this the best way to do it?*
> 
> See picture below. Meter set to 250 vac scale and needle is approx half way.
> 
> Click on pic to enlarge
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, sorry to be blunt, but you are dangerous around electricity. The breaker gets sized to the wiring, not the estimated combined load of multiple circuits that were wired at a lower load and wire gauge.. You have created a dangerous situation in your house. Splicing 3 circuits of mixed wire gauge onto one higher amperage breaker is not allowed and very unsafe. I shudder to think what this panel must look like. For the safety of your home you should get a professional electrician there to review this.
> 
> I see now that there is plenty of slack to do that top romex connection correctly. Insert it deeper into that connector so that it is clamping on the insulation. And last, I see the neutral bonded to the ground at the sub-panel. They should be separate.
Click to expand...


Thanks BeGreen
I need to upgrade to a 200 amp main panel to correct that. Thanks again

Here is the new 200 AMP interlock Electric Panel with Generator outlet on outside of garage.  All inspected too!
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/100-200-amp-service-upgrade-box-in-new-circuit-panel.137937/


----------



## gpcollen1

Just want to make sure you do not leave it like that?!  You need to put those breakers back the way they were...OR...you can get special breakers where you can get 240 from a 'single' breaker or 2 - 120 lines from a single breaker.  That is what you need to do if your breaker space is all used up. Not sure what brand panel you have but here are the Square D Tandem Breakers...

http://www.nextag.com/square-d-tandem-breakers/stores-html


----------



## oldspark

I was worried about this happening, no disrespect to any body but advice off of a forum for electrical is not good, I mentioned the breakers a while back and it sounded wrong but sorting out the good advice from the bad is not always easy when you are not sure.


----------



## oldspark

davmor said:
			
		

> You cannot have your subpanel ground and neutral bonded. It appears that is what you have done. Not sure on your questions. Maybe a picture of your main panel may help. If you are not sure of your work you may be farther ahead to have someone look at it.


 I hope not as it has been beat to death in this thread, I can not tell for sure from the picture.


----------



## Don2222

Hello

I appreciate all the info I got from this thread there is alot of good information here to keep me going down the right path. The upgraded 200 amp service and a few breakers will makes this all correct now! Thanks again for all your information!


----------



## Don2222

Hello

Also should I put some electrical warning tape in the trench before closing it up?

http://www.bradyid.com/bradyid/scpv/Labels,-Markers-and-Tapes~Underground-Warning-Tapes.html


----------



## davmor

oldspark said:
			
		

> davmor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You cannot have your subpanel ground and neutral bonded. It appears that is what you have done. Not sure on your questions. Maybe a picture of your main panel may help. If you are not sure of your work you may be farther ahead to have someone look at it.
> 
> 
> 
> I hope not as it has been beat to death in this thread, I can not tell for sure from the picture.
Click to expand...

If you click on the picture it enlarges it. It looks like the the neutral and the ground are on the same bus bar.


----------



## oldspark

davmor said:
			
		

> oldspark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> davmor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You cannot have your subpanel ground and neutral bonded. It appears that is what you have done. Not sure on your questions. Maybe a picture of your main panel may help. If you are not sure of your work you may be farther ahead to have someone look at it.
> 
> 
> 
> I hope not as it has been beat to death in this thread, I can not tell for sure from the picture.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you click on the picture it enlarges it. It looks like the the neutral and the ground are on the same bus bar.
Click to expand...

 Right you are, don2222 did you catch that, that is a no no and mentioned in the thread many times. The one link I posted had every thing covered for a sub panel. Good eye davmor!


----------



## Don2222

oldspark said:
			
		

> davmor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> oldspark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> davmor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You cannot have your subpanel ground and neutral bonded. It appears that is what you have done. Not sure on your questions. Maybe a picture of your main panel may help. If you are not sure of your work you may be farther ahead to have someone look at it.
> 
> 
> 
> I hope not as it has been beat to death in this thread, I can not tell for sure from the picture.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you click on the picture it enlarges it. It looks like the the neutral and the ground are on the same bus bar.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Right you are, don2222 did you catch that, that is a no no and mentioned in the thread many times. The one link I posted had every thing covered for a sub panel. Good eye davmor!
Click to expand...


Hello oldspark

Yes, but was not clear about why. So these two links explain it! Thanks for pointing me in the right direction!
There is an optional ground buss for this panel and it did not explain anywhere what this option was for!
I now understand the extra buss is for equipment ground that this panel feeds that should be connected to a ground rod outside the shed
What I need that can be purchased at ACE hardware is:
http://www.acehardwareoutlet.com/productDetails.aspx?SKU=36347
Then a ground wire must be attached to this ground buss outside the shed!!

from http://masterslic.tripod.com/FAQ-2/18.html
Why isolate the neutral in a sub panel?...
 The neutral is only bonded to ground at your service panel. At all other points throughout your house, there is no connection between the bare (or green) grounding conductor and the white neutral conductor. Under normal conditions, the grounding conductor carries no current. No current means there is no voltage drop along it, therefore anything "grounded" to this conductor is at the same potential (voltage) as ground. If you bond the neutral and ground at the sub panel, then stray currents from the neutral return could go thru the equipment ground on the electrical devices fed from this sub panel. If you isolate the neutral and ground at the sub panel, than any currents would go back to the main panel, and go to the service ground. The main panel is where the neutral and equipment ground should be bonded.
 If you install a sub panel outside the building from the main panel, than you will need to drive a ground rod at this panel. A single branch circuit run to another building is not considered a sub panel.

also from here  http://ths.gardenweb.com/faq/lists/wiring/2005015726007600.html

Grounding and bonding of the sub-panel

At the sub-panel there must be no connection between the neutral bus bar and the equipment ground bus bar or the neutral bus bar and the sheet metal of the breaker box. You may need to purchase an additional bus bar for the equipment ground since many panels, especially those that come with a main breaker, do not come equipped with one. If the panel comes with a bonding screw or bonding strap, do not install it to the neutral. Depending on the brand of panel, you may need it to connect the ground bus to the sheet metal enclosure.

At the remote building, you will need to drive two eight-foot ground rods located a minimum of six feet from each other and connect them to the equipment ground bus using #6 copper wire. The easiest way is to make one continuous run without cutting the wire. The rods must be driven in flush or below grade. The ground rod clamps must be listed for direct burial. It will say so on the clamp or look for the letters "DB". If you have any metal piping (except gas lines) in the remote building, you must bond it to the equipment ground bar, use #6 wire. If the connection is to a metal water line, the connection should be within the first 5 feet of where the water line enters the building. All connections must remain accessible, so if the connection will end up inside a wall, you must provide an access plate.

I realize that some of the things I've included exceed the code minimum, but this is an attempt to make a "one size fits all" response without getting into a really long discussion.

For a sub-panel in the same dwelling there is no need for additional ground rods or connections to metal piping. Also, no need for a main breaker in the sub-panel, regardless of the number of circuits. Unless you are running metal conduit, you will need to run a 4 wire feeder.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ace Hardware Equipment Ground Buss for Sub Panel in shed!

"SQUARE D" GROUND BAR KIT



    For attaching ground wire in load centers and safety switches
    Required when load center is not at point of service entrance
    Has 12 lugs in grounding bar
    For wire diameters between 4-#2/0 AWG maximum
    UL listed
    Clampack
    Fits Ace No.s 32537, 32538, 34034, 34035


----------



## oldspark

I dont think you were reading the links we were providing for you, sometimes its best to just farm things out. Have a good one and I dont like giving out electrical advice on a forum so I hope not to do this again.


----------



## Don2222

oldspark said:
			
		

> I dont think you were reading the links we were providing for you, sometimes its best to just farm things out. Have a good one and I dont like giving out electrical advice on a forum so I hope not to do this again.



Please do not get me wrong oldspark. I want to thank you for pointing me in the right direction. I have been very busy and it takes time for all this to sink into my brain!

This was a tough subject with a little confusion but now it is very clear from what you said. Thanks again and I appreciate your expert advise!


----------



## Don2222

Hello oldspark

Actually I would still really like to know if not under normal conditions, but under what conditions would create stray currents in a outbuilding sub panel with a bonded ground to neutral panel?


----------



## woodgeek

If the neutral and ground are bonded at the service panel AND the sub panel, you don't have a ground in the shed.  All return current in the neutral will flow through both the neutral and ground wire.  Think about it--the only difference between the neutral and the ground in that rig is the color of the jacket.


----------



## oldspark

I think it was touched on before, you create a parallel path for the returning current (neutral) even under normal conditions  it can cause all sorts of weird things espicially if you are using metal conduit and have loose connections that can over heat, the fact of the matter is you may never have a problem wiring it that way but it is not worth the risk. I hope that is the answer you are looking for.


----------



## nate379

You don't need 200 amp service to correct your breaker issue if all you need is more room in the panel.  Yes you could get a larger panel but that is quite a bit of work to put in, all to just add a breaker.

Look to see if your brand of panel carries "2 in 1" breakers, like this: http://www.amazon.com/Siemens-Q2020-120-Volt-Circuit-Breaker/dp/B00002N7KW

You could combine 4 breaker spaces into 2 and then that would give you room for that 240v breaker for your sub panel.  Not all panels allow this, you NEED to use the same brand breakers as the panel and also those breakers need to say it's ok on the model of your panel.
This also applies with regular breakers as well.


I do agree with the others please have a electrician take a look at your work, even if it's just a friend that is in the know.


----------



## Battenkiller

My lord, and I thought drying wood was complicated.  :lol: 

I'll be a first time homeowner in a couple weeks.  I think I'll let somebody else run the electric to my shed. :coolsmirk:


----------



## oldspark

Information overload!


----------



## Don2222

Battenkiller said:
			
		

> My lord, and I thought drying wood was complicated.  :lol:
> 
> I'll be a first time homeowner in a couple weeks.  I think I'll let somebody else run the electric to my shed. :coolsmirk:



That's nice if you can afford it!

So far I spent
$142.00 for 95 feet of # 10-3 UF-B direct burial wire from Lowes
$30.00 for 2 circuit load center and 2 20 amp breakers from Home Depot
$8.50 for Main Load Center Panel Breaker
$20.00 for gray PVC conduit and clamps to protect the AC wires on side of house and side of shed.
$31.00 for 12-2 wire for shed outlets
$6.00 for 1st shed outlet
Total $237.50

My own labor for digging a trench 2 - 3 feet deep and 27 Feet long. Code is minimum 18 inches deep.

So if you can hire someone to do it for double that you would be doing very well!!

*Ok, electricians how much is the going rate for the 1st outlet in a shed like this that meets all code requirements??*


----------



## gpcollen1

This B&D Guide for Electrical has been very helpful to me.  I have two friends who have helped me to make sure I wire everything correctly BUT i have educated myself with this book.  It has just about everything you need.  Used for $4 is a steal!!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-list...;=&qid;=&sr;=&seller;=&colid;=&condition=used


----------



## Don2222

oldspark said:
			
		

> I think it was touched on before, you create a parallel path for the returning current (neutral) even under normal conditions  it can cause all sorts of weird things espicially if you are using metal conduit and have loose connections that can over heat, the fact of the matter is you may never have a problem wiring it that way but it is not worth the risk. I hope that is the answer you are looking for.



Hello oldspark

Well thanks again, I looked up more detail and found a better explanation that I was looking for.
Also thanks for being honest in saying that it may never happen in my small shed in the back yard since I did not use metal conduit.

It seems Electro-Magnetic Interference (EMI) can cause these stray voltages you are refering to.

It seems the major cause is:
1. Older local electric utilities that do not distinguish between ground and neutral like in the old days!
2. Old Motors in farm equipment with excessive leakage currents.

Quote from link below
1.
"The electrical utilities do all of the wrong things relative to stray voltage. They consider ground to be the same as neutral and they connect the primary neutral and the secondary neutral together at their distribution transformers."
2.
"Farmers need to select electrical equipment, including lights, that will not generate excessive ground currents. Lighting ballast, electrical motors and auto-transformers are primary sources of leakage current even when they are UL approved and working correctly. All electrical equipment needs to be tested for leakage before it is installed. If the leakage currents is in excess of 1 milliamps (0.001 Amps), then the equipment should not be used. If you must use it, then special precautions must be taken in the electrical system design."

See
http://www.bassengineering.com/SV_Cause.htm


----------



## Don2222

NATE379 said:
			
		

> You don't need 200 amp service to correct your breaker issue if all you need is more room in the panel.  Yes you could get a larger panel but that is quite a bit of work to put in, all to just add a breaker.
> 
> Look to see if your brand of panel carries "2 in 1" breakers, like this: http://www.amazon.com/Siemens-Q2020-120-Volt-Circuit-Breaker/dp/B00002N7KW
> 
> You could combine 4 breaker spaces into 2 and then that would give you room for that 240v breaker for your sub panel.  Not all panels allow this, you NEED to use the same brand breakers as the panel and also those breakers need to say it's ok on the model of your panel.
> This also applies with regular breakers as well.
> 
> 
> I do agree with the others please have a electrician take a look at your work, even if it's just a friend that is in the know.



Hello Nate
Thanks for your very good suggestion but I am 2-1 maxed out in the breakers. Just no more room. I do have new tri-plex 200 amp wires installed about a year ago from my house to the new telephone pole the Tel Co installed. 
So a 200 amp panel, 200 amp meter socket and new weather head and wires on the side of the house for $2000.00 is the only correct solution!


----------



## burnham

Don2222 said:
			
		

> oldspark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think it was touched on before, you create a parallel path for the returning current (neutral) even under normal conditions  it can cause all sorts of weird things espicially if you are using metal conduit and have loose connections that can over heat, the fact of the matter is you may never have a problem wiring it that way but it is not worth the risk. I hope that is the answer you are looking for.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hello oldspark
> 
> Well thanks again, I looked up more detail and found a better explanation that I was looking for.
> Also thanks for being honest in saying that it may never happen in my small shed in the back yard since I did not use metal conduit.
> 
> It seems Electro-Magnetic Interference (EMI) can cause these stray voltages you are refering to.
> 
> It seems the major cause is:
> 1. Older local electric utilities that do not distinguish between ground and neutral like in the old days!
> 2. Old Motors in farm equipment with excessive leakage currents.
> 
> Quote from link below
> 1.
> "The electrical utilities do all of the wrong things relative to stray voltage. They consider ground to be the same as neutral and they connect the primary neutral and the secondary neutral together at their distribution transformers."
> 2.
> "Farmers need to select electrical equipment, including lights, that will not generate excessive ground currents. Lighting ballast, electrical motors and auto-transformers are primary sources of leakage current even when they are UL approved and working correctly. All electrical equipment needs to be tested for leakage before it is installed. If the leakage currents is in excess of 1 milliamps (0.001 Amps), then the equipment should not be used. If you must use it, then special precautions must be taken in the electrical system design."
> 
> See
> http://www.bassengineering.com/SV_Cause.htm
Click to expand...


 No, this has nothing to do with what oldspark was trying to warn you about.  He was speaking of circulating currents.  The link you posted is aimed  more toward dairy farms where cows stand around in their own (conductive) piss all day while hooked to milking machines, and crap into a pit that has an auger in it....that's driven by an electric motor. 

 The fact that the primary and secondary neutrals are probably bonded together at the transformer that feeds your house isn't a problem, the problem is you have just enough electrical knowledge to be dangerous.


----------



## nate379

What do you think the cost would be if your burned your house down or killed someone? 




			
				Don2222 said:
			
		

> Battenkiller said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My lord, and I thought drying wood was complicated.  :lol:
> 
> I'll be a first time homeowner in a couple weeks.  I think I'll let somebody else run the electric to my shed. :coolsmirk:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's nice if you can afford it!
> 
> So far I spent
> $142.00 for 95 feet of # 10-3 UF-B direct burial wire from Lowes
> $30.00 for 2 circuit load center and 2 20 amp breakers from Home Depot
> $8.50 for Main Load Center Panel Breaker
> $20.00 for gray PVC conduit and clamps to protect the AC wires on side of house and side of shed.
> $31.00 for 12-2 wire for shed outlets
> $6.00 for 1st shed outlet
> Total $237.50
> 
> My own labor for digging a trench 2 - 3 feet deep and 27 Feet long. Code is minimum 18 inches deep.
> 
> So if you can hire someone to do it for double that you would be doing very well!!
> 
> *Ok, electricians how much is the going rate for the 1st outlet in a shed like this that meets all code requirements??*
Click to expand...


----------



## davmor

CTwoodburner said:
			
		

> This B&D Guide for Electrical has been very helpful to me.  I have two friends who have helped me to make sure I wire everything correctly BUT i have educated myself with this book.  It has just about everything you need.  Used for $4 is a steal!!
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-list...;=&qid;=&sr;=&seller;=&colid;=&condition=used


That is a good book. I had one at one time, loaned it out, never got it back, lesson learned.


----------



## Don2222

NATE379 said:
			
		

> What do you think the cost would be if your burned your house down or killed someone?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don2222 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Battenkiller said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My lord, and I thought drying wood was complicated.  :lol:
> 
> I'll be a first time homeowner in a couple weeks.  I think I'll let somebody else run the electric to my shed. :coolsmirk:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's nice if you can afford it!
> 
> So far I spent
> $142.00 for 95 feet of # 10-3 UF-B direct burial wire from Lowes
> $30.00 for 2 circuit load center and 2 20 amp breakers from Home Depot
> $8.50 for Main Load Center Panel Breaker
> $20.00 for gray PVC conduit and clamps to protect the AC wires on side of house and side of shed.
> $31.00 for 12-2 wire for shed outlets
> $6.00 for 1st shed outlet
> Total $237.50
> 
> My own labor for digging a trench 2 - 3 feet deep and 27 Feet long. Code is minimum 18 inches deep.
> 
> So if you can hire someone to do it for double that you would be doing very well!!
> 
> *Ok, electricians how much is the going rate for the 1st outlet in a shed like this that meets all code requirements??*
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


I agree that burning the house down is not worth it. I had one main breaker start burning up last summer and there was no more than 60 amps of loading. After the research I found that the springs in the breakers get weak and cause a loose connection and start burning up Maybe those old fuses were safer??

Anyway, this house was built in 1962 and I am still bringing things up to the new codes as soon as I can. There was a wood stove on the same flue as the boiler. In the old days the fire inspector said if the flue was 12 inches higher than the other flue that was OK Well we know now it is not OK and I had a new SS chimney installed! Not cheap either!!

So that is why I appreciate all this advise so even if I had someone else do the work I will know it is safe!!


----------



## Don2222

burnham said:
			
		

> Don2222 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> oldspark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think it was touched on before, you create a parallel path for the returning current (neutral) even under normal conditions  it can cause all sorts of weird things espicially if you are using metal conduit and have loose connections that can over heat, the fact of the matter is you may never have a problem wiring it that way but it is not worth the risk. I hope that is the answer you are looking for.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hello oldspark
> 
> Well thanks again, I looked up more detail and found a better explanation that I was looking for.
> Also thanks for being honest in saying that it may never happen in my small shed in the back yard since I did not use metal conduit.
> 
> It seems Electro-Magnetic Interference (EMI) can cause these stray voltages you are refering to.
> 
> It seems the major cause is:
> 1. Older local electric utilities that do not distinguish between ground and neutral like in the old days!
> 2. Old Motors in farm equipment with excessive leakage currents.
> 
> Quote from link below
> 1.
> "The electrical utilities do all of the wrong things relative to stray voltage. They consider ground to be the same as neutral and they connect the primary neutral and the secondary neutral together at their distribution transformers."
> 2.
> "Farmers need to select electrical equipment, including lights, that will not generate excessive ground currents. Lighting ballast, electrical motors and auto-transformers are primary sources of leakage current even when they are UL approved and working correctly. All electrical equipment needs to be tested for leakage before it is installed. If the leakage currents is in excess of 1 milliamps (0.001 Amps), then the equipment should not be used. If you must use it, then special precautions must be taken in the electrical system design."
> 
> See
> http://www.bassengineering.com/SV_Cause.htm
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, this has nothing to do with what oldspark was trying to warn you about.  He was speaking of circulating currents.  The link you posted is aimed  more toward dairy farms where cows stand around in their own (conductive) piss all day while hooked to milking machines, and crap into a pit that has an auger in it....that's driven by an electric motor.
> 
> The fact that the primary and secondary neutrals are probably bonded together at the transformer that feeds your house isn't a problem, the problem is you have just enough electrical knowledge to be dangerous.
Click to expand...


*I understand that was not what oldspark said, but I do not have metal conduit either so if you could please give an example that applies in my case of stray currents I really want to hear it??*
In the meantime I have to either find where to buy that equipment ground buss locally or order it on the internet.


----------



## woodgeek

Ahem, not to speak for oldspark, but this is not about induced or stray current effects, its about you not having a ground in your shed.  Of course, there are worse things than not having a ground (you could have installed two-prong out there), but the way you've done it, it looks like it has a ground (three prong) but it really doesn't!

As a fault example, imagine a tool/appliance where the motor runs hot to neutral, and the metal case is tied to ground.  Thirty years from now, under load, you get an open circuit in your neutral/ground line, due to corrosion and arcing caused by rainwater getting into that new 200 amp panel you are going to get  (that silicone caulking was on sale after its expiration, and never did set up right). Now the case on the appliance is tied to hot, zotting the next owner of your home, George Jetson, as he stands in his crocs in a well grounded puddle during a rainstorm. Poor Jane. If you had not tied the ground and neutral wires together way back in 2012, however, the appliance loses juice, but George is protected by a still grounded case, even as he curses you and your now ancient DIY wiring andâ€”vigorously shaking his fistâ€”slips and drops the tool (with the still live hot) into the puddle he is standing in.  What a schlemiel.

At the same time, unknown to George, far above the rainclouds, a solar flare has caused an impressive aurora borealis display.  The induced currents have troubled the young engineers at the local utility, knocking the new cold fusion plant offline temporarily.  Of course, it has also induced 347 millivolts between the tool and the ground point in your/George's main breaker panel.  George doesn't notice, and goes and takes a hot shower.


----------



## oldspark

Stray currents can be one of the problems wireng it the way he did (look it up believe me I did and found it in many places) but there are all sorts of things that could happen down the road but the stray currents are the biggest concern with tieing the neutral and ground together on the load side (to the point of tripping devices not working correctly) and once again do not take my work for it look it up its every where . I will NOT wire in a sub panel (actually a non service panel) with out a ground rod period, do you plan on putting a ground rod in Don, just wire it according to code and correct the problems mentioned here and you will be fine.


----------



## Don2222

woodgeek said:
			
		

> Ahem, not to speak for oldspark, but this is not about induced or stray current effects, its about you not having a ground in your shed.  Of course, there are worse things than not having a ground (you could have installed two-prong out there), but the way you've done it, it looks like it has a ground (three prong) but it really doesn't!
> 
> As a fault example, imagine a tool/appliance where the motor runs hot to neutral, and the metal case is tied to ground.  Thirty years from now, under load, you get an open circuit in your neutral/ground line, due to corrosion and arcing caused by rainwater getting into that new 200 amp panel you are going to get  (that silicone caulking was on sale after its expiration, and never did set up right). Now the case on the appliance is tied to hot, zotting the next owner of your home, George Jetson, as he stands in his crocs in a well grounded puddle during a rainstorm. Poor Jane. If you had not tied the ground and neutral wires together way back in 2012, however, the appliance loses juice, but George is protected by a still grounded case, even as he curses you and your now ancient DIY wiring andâ€”vigorously shaking his fistâ€”slips and drops the tool (with the still live hot) into the puddle he is standing in.  What a schlemiel.
> 
> At the same time, unknown to George, far above the rainclouds, a solar flare has caused an impressive aurora borealis display.  The induced currents have troubled the young engineers at the local utility, knocking the new cold fusion plant offline temporarily.  Of course, it has also induced 347 millivolts between the tool and the ground point in your/George's main breaker panel.  George doesn't notice, and goes and takes a hot shower.



Hello Woodgeek

Sorry, You did not do your homework on this one. You may want to go to your nearest home depot and look at the outdoor 10-3 UF-B wire. It does have a bare ground wire and in my case it goes to the main panel buss and is grounded!!

See pic below:


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## Don2222

oldspark said:
			
		

> Stray currents can be one of the problems wireng it the way he did (look it up believe me I did and found it in many places) but there are all sorts of things that could happen down the road but the stray currents are the biggest concern with tieing the neutral and ground together on the load side (to the point of tripping devices not working correctly) and once again do not take my work for it look it up its every where . I will NOT wire in a sub panel (actually a non service panel) with out a ground rod period, do you plan on putting a ground rod in Don, just wire it according to code and correct the problems mentioned here and you will be fine.



Hello OldSpark

Thanks, I have been doing more research and stray currents can also be caused by long runs over one hundred feet simply by the voltage drop in the wiring. This is what I wanted people to tell me. However my run is only 95 feet so not much of a problem. Also by having an unbalanced sub panel. This means running 10-2 and installing one 20 amp circuit. Alot of devices going would cause stray currents on the neutral. However I ran 10-3 UF-B with 240 vac for 2 - 20 amp circuits in which I will balance between the outlets and lighting.

So as you can tell I really appreciate the info and caution you guys are giving me.

When I am out today I will be looking for that optional equipment ground buss that I can put in the subpanel that I can tie a ground rod to. It does not come with the load center I purchased.

Also If you can find a really severe issue that pertains to my case that will cause stray currents, I would like to here it.
Thanks again guys!


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## woodgeek

Don2222 said:
			
		

> Hello Woodgeek
> 
> Sorry, You did not do your homework on this one. You may want to go to your nearest home depot and look at the outdoor 10-3 UF-B wire. It does have a bare ground wire and in my case it goes to the main panel buss and is grounded!!



Um, the picture is exactly what I have a beef with.  I know you ran four wires, including the ground wire.  The beef is that you tied that ground wire to the neutral on the sub-panel AND the main panel (IIRC). It is now not a ground--it is an uninsulated neutral wire! There has been some discussion here about whether the sub-panel ground should be tied via this conductor to the main panel ground, OR to a separate grounding rod near the shed.  Seems to me like six of one, half a dozen of the other--depends ultimately on distance: short distance tie in the wire, long go with a rod.  Neither option is what you have done.

When we saw the ground tied to the neutral at the subpanel, (the picture above) all of our heads exploded, and we told you to not do that.  You have been talking skeptically about stray currents since then, and do not appear to appreciate that you have wired things incorrectly.


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## Don2222

woodgeek said:
			
		

> Don2222 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hello Woodgeek
> 
> Sorry, You did not do your homework on this one. You may want to go to your nearest home depot and look at the outdoor 10-3 UF-B wire. It does have a bare ground wire and in my case it goes to the main panel buss and is grounded!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Um, the picture is exactly what I have a beef with.  I know you ran four wires, including the ground wire.  The beef is that you tied that ground wire to the neutral on the sub-panel AND the main panel (IIRC). It is now not a ground--it is an uninsulated neutral wire! There has been some discussion here about whether the sub-panel ground should be tied via this conductor to the main panel ground, OR to a separate grounding rod near the shed.  Seems to me like six of one, half a dozen of the other--depends ultimately on distance: short distance tie in the wire, long go with a rod.  Neither option is what you have done.
> 
> When we saw the ground tied to the neutral at the subpanel, (the picture above) all of our heads exploded, and we told you to not do that.  You have been talking skeptically about stray currents since then, and do not appear to appreciate that you have wired things incorrectly.
Click to expand...


Understood WoodGeek.
As I stated earlier I went out today and found the Optional Buss. See pic below
Therefore it will be wired correctly very shortly.
I am not a magician it just takes a little time.
Thank-you


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## woodgeek

capiche.


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## jharkin

deleted - redundant


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## nate379

You have plans to fix your main panel too I hope?


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## oldspark

NATE379 said:
			
		

> You have plans to fix your main panel too I hope?


 I guess I missed that what was wrong there (too lazy to look through 7 pages)?


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## Don2222

NATE379 said:
			
		

> You have plans to fix your main panel too I hope?



Oh, yes the main panel.

I got the ground buss to fix  the subpanel. I agree also that the subpanel should never have the ground bonded to the neutral. It comes that way by default so it can be used as a main panel. I did not realize that but someone might use a 2 circuit panel as a main panel!! LOL

Also, just before the rain and maybe some snow, I installed the OSHA required RED danger tape 12 inches below the ground and approx 12 inches or more above the electric and cable wires. The electrical supply had detectable tape (Aluminum Foil) for $79.00 for a 300 foot rol and $26.00 for the non-detectble RED Ribbon Tape that had Electrical printed on it. I went with the home Depot $5.00 for 3"x200 foot roll of RED (Red is used only for Electical wires) that said Danger and Peligro on it. See pics

Thanks everyone for you help and comments!


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## nate379

I never did that but I have 4" of insulation over the top of my run so I'd hope that pulling up insulation would clue something is going on!

My line is around 40" down.  Main reason is I ran my airline in the same trench and I didn't want it freezing up.  So far so good between the depth and the insulation.


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## Don2222

Hello

Here is another way to do it!! See guy that ran a wire a few years back!!
http://www.doityourself.com/forum/electrical-c-d-c/278307-running-electricity-shed.html


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## Don2222

Hello

Well I just added 4 more AC outlets today on the other circuit. The top ac outlet of the duplex is switched and goes to the wall switch next to the door on the inside.

Also I finally unbonded the ground and neutral. I connected the ground to the new ground buss that I installed and pushed the 10-2 UF-B feed wire into the box more so that is also right. Thanks to Brother Bart for noticing that. 

I also wanted to than Brother Bart again for explaining the the two types of feeds using 10-3 or 10-2 UF-B and especially how I can have 2 - 20 amp circuits which is what I chose. That was super BB..

Thanks alot everyone else. That was the best advice!!

See new pic below
Click to enlarge.


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## Danno77

Can I get a quick summary on this?
You have a double pole 30amp in the main breaker box. Then ran 10-3 to a sub panel, where you have two 20amp breakers that feed into 12/2 wires. At that sub panel you have a grounding rod and the neutral feeds back to the main and the ground to the grounding rod. Sound right?


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## Don2222

Danno77 said:
			
		

> Can I get a quick summary on this?
> You have a double pole 30amp in the main breaker box. Then ran 10-3 to a sub panel, where you have two 20amp breakers that feed into 12/2 wires. At that sub panel you have a grounding rod and the neutral feeds back to the main and the ground to the grounding rod. Sound right?



Yes that is correct. Also I dug the trench 2 - 3 feet deep but the electrical code is 18 inches, then at 12 inches I layed out the red warning ribbon in case someone digs there!


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## nate379

Should have ~6" of wire on each conductor in the box.

Looks like most of your conductors are really short.



			
				Don2222 said:
			
		

> Hello
> 
> Well I just added 4 more AC outlets today on the other circuit. The top ac outlet of the duplex is switched and goes to the wall switch next to the door on the inside.
> 
> Also I finally unbonded the ground and neutral. I connected the ground to the new ground buss that I installed and pushed the 10-2 UF-B feed wire into the box more so that is also right. Thanks to Brother Bart for noticing that.
> 
> I also wanted to than Brother Bart again for explaining the the two types of feeds using 10-3 or 10-2 UF-B and especially how I can have 2 - 20 amp circuits which is what I chose. That was super BB..
> 
> Thanks alot everyone else. That was the best advice!!
> 
> See new pic below
> Click to enlarge.


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## Don2222

Hello

Well I finally finished off the Shed Sub Panel with a custom made wooden box with a plywood door using Non-Mortise European Hinges for easy installation! LOL

See pics here > https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...-mortise-european-hinges-inexpensively.86890/


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## Don2222

Hello

Well, The new grass finally grew over the Electrical Trench!

It needed new loam, starter fertilizer and grass seed!


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## GAMMA RAY

Don, that is one pimped out shed...
You need to run plumbing to it though...
Just say'in...better get on that Don!


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## begreen

Yup, got to get ready for the Don john. That should be an interesting thread.


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## Don2222

begreen said:


> Yup, got to get ready for the Don john. That should be an interesting thread.


 
There is a youtube video with a urinal in a shed. It would not look good next to the wood pellet stove! So I can just go behind the shed!

See shed Wiz


I was thinking about AC in the window though?


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## MasterMech

Now there's an idea!  Wife gets more than a little annoyed if I "forget" to take my shoes off when I come in the house to whiz.   Which is far too often when I'm really into the nuts and bolts of something.   I doubt the Mountain Dew or gallons of Iced Tea I drink is helping that.


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## GAMMA RAY

Holy friggin crap...Mr Gamma just told me this morning that he has the plans for our new shed...I did not know we were getting one!
What is it with you buggers and your sheds dammit!

Don you need a commode in that shed!


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## Don2222

GAMMA RAY said:


> Holy friggin crap...Mr Gamma just told me this morning that he has the plans for our new shed...I did not know we were getting one!
> What is it with you buggers and your sheds dammit!
> 
> Don you need a commode in that shed!


 
Hey Gamma

Congratulations! Hope we can see pics of your progress?

Did he see the pics of my base and shed going up?
See > https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...m-channel-under-the-rake-boards-is-for.70576/


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## GAMMA RAY

No he did not see it....my husband does not partake in Hearth.com.

Sometimes when he is doing something I think is questionable, I often say..."That's not the way the boys on Hearth do it!"

I will show him your thread though Don.


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## Don2222

Thanks and tell him this is the way we build sheds too!


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## Don2222

GAMMA RAY said:


> Holy friggin crap...Mr Gamma just told me this morning that he has the plans for our new shed...I did not know we were getting one!
> What is it with you buggers and your sheds dammit!
> 
> Don you need a commode in that shed!


 
Original building the shed thread with pics. Good base is VERY important.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/...m-channel-under-the-rake-boards-is-for.70576/

No but I got the R15 insulation in the 2x4 walls and then R4 foil on top. Then covered it up with some wood paneling and shelves under the loft. Now with the cable TV and wood pellet stove it is a nice place for TV and Beer!

Click on pic to see the microwave too! Last pic shows pellet stove thru the window!


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## ironpony

Dons threads are very entertaining if nothing else


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## Don2222

Thanks


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## begreen

Wife finally relegated ya to the doghouse eh?  Well at least it's cozy.


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## Don2222

begreen said:


> Wife finally relegated ya to the doghouse eh?  Well at least it's cozy.


 
Great place to go for some peace and quiet! Plus I can bring my friends over whenever I want!


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## begreen

Got a kegerator?  If so, you are all set.


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## Don2222

Hi BeGreen

Thanks for all the advise on the 10/3 you really got me going on the right track! I did not need the beer frige in the winter but I may be looking for one for the summer. Now that the paneling is in I can mount it in a good spot.

I made a nice wood box for the Electric Panel and wires. After that I moved the T-Stat to the outside front top of the wood box. It works a little better that way!

Also have a plastic folder on the inside of the wood door that holds the SIGNED town permit!

See pics
Click to enlarge


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## Don2222

Hello

Bench Electrical part of the shed Electrical is finally done! Next week the Interior lighting is coming in!

Two Electrical outlets from 2 different 20 amp circuit breakers on wall on each side of bench.
1. AC 3 prong Power bench strip
2. 18 VDC lithium ion Drill/Driver charger
3. 0-18 VDC 10 AMP heavy duty variable Lab power supply
4. 12 VDC fixed Regulated Power Supply
5. 12 VDC cigarette lighter jack and bananna jack connectors
6. 12 VDC Coffee warmer mug with LCD Temperature control



Click to Enlarge:


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## Don2222

Hello

The interior shed lighting is almost complete. I just have to install an electrical outlet in the ceiling for the LED spotlight to shine on the work!

Warm White in ceiling (behind 5x1" pine trim board and Loft light along LVL. (Laminated Veneer Lumber - No colar ties needed!)
Cool white LED spotlight to shine down on hearth work
Amber LED rope light for hearth glow


Pic 1 - Shows new strings in box
Pic 2 - Shows Warm White in ceiling and Loft
Pic 3 - Shows Even effects of all lighting!

Click on pics below to see entire image.


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## begreen

Is your car as pimped up as the shed?


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## SmokeyTheBear

begreen said:


> Is your car as pimped up as the shed?


 
You know, thems got to be fighting words, I sense a food fight or something coming up .


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## Don2222

Hello BG

Does this answer your question?

New England Dragway Class Winner.   Sunday!  drum roll ! ! !

Click pic to enlarge


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## begreen

Thought so. Congratulations.


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## Don2222

Thanks BeGreen

Well, here is the final Electrical Outlet. Now that I have the proper lighting with the LED warm white rope light lighting up the shelves, I still could not see the stove on the hearth for cleaning and working on. So like I have in the main house, a cleaning work light would be nice here. I found the best location is low on the ceiling in the front of the shed so it will shine on the hearth and the front on the stove I am working on.

The LED spot light works well but, there is no outlet to plug the light into!

Therefore, I founds some left over 12-3 wire and did the following:
1. Using a romex connector, I wired the 12-3 into the electrical workbox where the interior light switch is connected.
2. Then I drilled out holes in the ceiling 2x6s to run the wire to the middle of the front of the shed ceiling to a new work box.
3. Then I found a small piece of scrap 1x2 piece of pine that I cut to size and nailed it between the studs to mount the LED spotlight.
4. Using AC tester, test for proper wire connections before final assembly
5. Plug in spot and using a wire tie bundle the slack to make the wires neat!

Since I used a piece of scrap 12-3
Total cost of 20 Amp outlet and box was less than $10.00!

LED spotlight was only $24.95 at Lowes!

Now I just have to install a ship lap ceiling!

See pics


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## Don2222

begreen said:


> Got a kegerator?  If so, you are all set.


 

Hi BeGreen
I finally got this on this rainy night.
I kid in town had 2 for sale $20 and $50, I choose the newer one (Only 1 yr old) and got it for $45
Not bad, this is it
It is the 4.5 Cu Ft model according to the model # so the ad is incorrect.
http://www.target.com/p/emerson-4-4..._0004de358cd999ff0ae056896a004548&LNM=Primary

Emerson 4.5 Cu Ft model CR519b - has a nice rack for cans in the door!

It can be made into a Kegerator with only a few mods. 
Looks like the coolant lines in the top have to be moved also!

See
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/emerson-4-6-kegerator-189961/index4.html

Is this what you are talking about BeGreen?
Show me your Kegerator Conversion! ! ! LOL
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/show-us-your-upright-refrigerator-kegerator-conversion-337942/


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## Don2222

Hello

A new shed breaker was finally installed in an upgraded 200 amp cutler hammer circuit panel
See
Story here
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...idential-circuit-panel-will-this-work.134234/

Also see current meter thread for easy monitoring
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...idential-circuit-panel-will-this-work.134234/

Pic 1 - New Upgraded 200 amp panel
Pic 2 - New 30 amp shed breaker


----------

