# Fire Chief or Shelter EPA stoves feedback



## Mrpelletburner

While researching new EPA rated stoves, I could not locate much info regarding the new Fire Chief / Shelter EPA rated stoves. Hope this thread becomes a place where FC/S owners can post their experience setup.

Perhaps someone that had an older version and has since upgraded, could provide feedback regarding burn times and wood consumption? Was the upgrade worth it?

Once my FC1000 arrives, I will be sharing my feedback.


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## Mrpelletburner

So got to thinking today.... 

My current setup has knobs to control the draft (heat output of stove, old Hunstman stove). On the EPA rated Fire Chief the flap is fixed to 3/8” open and is not adjustable. So my question is... How do you control the heat output? Does the stove produce the same heat on a 0deg day and a 35deg day? If so, how do you stop the furnace from baking you out of the house?


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## Mrpelletburner

Update 2-18-18

Assembled the stove tonight and ran into a couple of issues.

First, the thermostat control box had he back plate mounted upside down (see attached photos).

Second, the draft blower was wired from the top, not the bottom (see attached photos). 

Perhaps they are still working out the bugs?

First fire... The stove is going to burn off a lot of oil, if possible fire up the stove outside. Tons of smoke.

So far, I am not sure of the draft blower does anything. It runs, but doesn’t seem to kick the fire up. Opening the draft door does more for cranking the heat quickly.

















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## Medic21

Mrpelletburner said:


> Update 2-18-18
> 
> Assembled the stove tonight and ran into a couple of issues.
> 
> First, the thermostat control box had he back plate mounted upside down (see attached photos).
> 
> Second, the draft blower was wired from the top, not the bottom (see attached photos).
> 
> Perhaps they are still working out the bugs?
> 
> First fire... The stove is going to burn off a lot of oil, if possible fire up the stove outside. Tons of smoke.
> 
> So far, I am not sure of the draft blower does anything. It runs, but doesn’t seem to kick the fire up. Opening the draft door does more for cranking the heat quickly.
> 
> View attachment 223299
> View attachment 223300
> View attachment 223301
> View attachment 223302
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



1st thing.  This stove will not burn properly without a good bed of hot coals.  You will find that the stack temps drop drastically between calls for heat.  The following procedure for lighting it is what I have found works best:

lots of kindling.  And 5-6 pieces of small, 3-4" splits or rounds.  This is the best way I have found to establish a bed of coals.  Light th fire and add the small pieces a couple at a time.  I uasually have the ash door open and close the load door in between adding pieces.  Watch the flue temps, I let mine get to 450+ and then open the load door with the ash door still open. After all those pieces are charred and burning good I add 3 or four large splits.  I still keep the load door open and burn these one at a time till they are burning good.   Once I have stackbt mos of 550-600 I can shut the door and let the inducer do its thing.  Every once in a while I have to open the door back up, if stack temps fall to 350 it is not established yet.  Takes 45min to an hour to do this.  

When I come back to reload I load it and leave the door open till the pieces are charred then close it and walk away.  It takes about 15 min.  

Green wood will not light in this on initial starting and the fire box temps are very high for proper operation.  1200 degrees according to fire chief.  Until the fire is established and temps are high enough the inducer will not keep the fire burning.


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## Mrpelletburner

What are you using to measure the stack temp and where is it located?

Have you measured what your pulling for a draft? 

I am getting a measurement of 0.06 - 0.08.


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## Medic21

Mrpelletburner said:


> What are you using to measure the stack temp and where is it located?
> 
> Have you measured what your pulling for a draft?
> 
> I am getting a measurement of 0.06 - 0.08.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I'm using a probe thermometer about 18" above the stove.  No idea what the draft is.  It's enough.  I should add the way I start the fire pretty much is the instructions for the stove.


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## Mrpelletburner

Wood is seasoned. Now have about a 2” bed of coals with 4 logs on top, all nice and burned. I have a magnet temp gauge (yea I know they are not 100% correct) located to the top left of the door. Opening the bottom draft door, I can get the temp to ~650deg without an issue. After I close the draft door and the fire sits, the temperature reading goes down to 350-500 and stays. If I open the feed door 20mins later, you don’t see a fire, appears to be just very hot black logs. 

Does this sound correct?


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## Turd Ferguson

Mrpelletburner said:


> Wood is seasoned. Now have about a 2” bed of coals with 4 logs on top, all nice and burned. I have a magnet temp gauge (yea I know they are not 100% correct) located to the top left of the door. Opening the bottom draft door, I can get the temp to ~650deg without an issue. After I close the draft door and the fire sits, the temperature reading goes down to 350-500 and stays. If I open the feed door 20mins later, you don’t see a fire, appears to be just very hot black logs.
> 
> Does this sound correct?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


You're in my boat. Measure your wood moisture and let us know. Also, did you line your chimney yet?

Also, your installation was very similar to mine, with stuff being mis-assembled and in bizarre locations.


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## Mrpelletburner

Feedback regarding installing the blower/filter box.


I know the instructions show to mount the blower first, then the filter box. To assist holding the blower in place, I mounted the filter box, minus the top panel. This gave me a shelf to rest the blower on, when attaching. Due to the weight of the blower, I noticed the rear panel appeared to bow out. Therefore I added a small piece of 2” insulation foam under the blower. Last I attached the top panel.

Hope this help anyone assembling the blower/filter box.







View attachment 223315


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## Mrpelletburner

Turd Ferguson said:


> You're in my boat. Measure your wood moisture and let us know. Also, did you line your chimney yet?
> 
> Also, your installation was very similar to mine, with stuff being mis-assembled and in bizarre locations.



Did not line my chimney yet... need to have this snow melt. My flue is a 12x8 clay lined and within spec for a draft. Running without the SS liner and then with will give great feedback regarding what improvement adding a liner does. 


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## Mrpelletburner

Other attachment that appears to be locked... 
	

		
			
		

		
	







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## Turd Ferguson

Mrpelletburner said:


> Did not line my chimney yet... need to have this snow melt. My flue is a 12x8 clay lined and within spec for a draft. Running without the SS liner and then with will give great feedback regarding what improvement adding a liner does.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I will be very curious to hear your results. I hope it does solve the problems that the both of us appear to be experiencing.


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## Medic21

Mrpelletburner said:


> Wood is seasoned. Now have about a 2” bed of coals with 4 logs on top, all nice and burned. I have a magnet temp gauge (yea I know they are not 100% correct) located to the top left of the door. Opening the bottom draft door, I can get the temp to ~650deg without an issue. After I close the draft door and the fire sits, the temperature reading goes down to 350-500 and stays. If I open the feed door 20mins later, you don’t see a fire, appears to be just very hot black logs.
> 
> Does this sound correct?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



With my infrared thermometer I'm 800+ above the door when it's burning properly.  It will get a little red at times and the snap on thermometer will read high. 

When the fan is running you should have a nice blue flame at the top of the burn chamber. When it's hot enough you should have a little bit of that blue flame burning the off gassing when you crack open the door when the fan is not running.

It is a very picky stove.  With 1200 degree firebox temps your not hitting that.  You need to monitor flue temps.


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## Mrpelletburner

Just split 2pcs of wood... moisture meter was 20% and 24%


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## Medic21

Mrpelletburner said:


> Just split 2pcs of wood... moisture meter was 20% and 24%
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Ok, I'm not sitting in the semi anymore.  Looking at the installation instructions I'm wondering if not having the chimney lined is part of your problem.  The masonary is absorbing too much heat not allowing it to warm properly.

How often is your circulation blower running?  When it runs how long it is running? 

I can tell you letting this furnace cool off between loading, I'm not burning mine every third day when I work my 24 hr shift after loading it at 5am I go to work, is a pain in the ass.  The fire box has to be extremely hot to operate as designed.  The next morning when I get home at 7:30 it still has enough coals in it to get it burning but, in order to warm the house 2 or 3 degrees it uses a lot of wood to get the fire box heated up again.

To give you an idea how hot the fire box is I burn the hair off my hands loading it without gloves between full loads.  This does not happen until the second full load.  My wood lights, almost completely, within 10-15 seconds of placing it after I bank the coals to the sides.  Flash point of wood is 570 degrees roughly depending on species and it burns completely, cleanly, at its hottest around 1100 degrees and forcing air in will raise those temps.  In order to get the cleanest burn those are the temps your going to need to have.  I was told by firechief they put the second rivet in the blower because guys were opening the slide so much they were creating an almost explosive combustion and cracking the front of the firebox.  

I get one layer at a time going and stuff the thing full.  I dont shut the door until the stack temps are at a minimum 600 degrees with the probe and all wood is charred.  I will have my auber probe tomorrow and will have a better idea of how hot it really is.  I have my slide set so the temps go down after I close it up.  A lot of times if all I load is ash 3/8 of an inch is too much and you may want to have some tape handy to block the opening a little.  It was 34 degrees last night and I got 10 hours out of it.  Not using it today or tomorrow, temps are 55 low and 70 for high.

If the inducer is running I normally stuff it full and wait till the temps are in the orange and close the door. 

I think you are running it too cool inside the firebox.  The whole principle to this is getting it hot enough that it instantly relights with the introduction of oxygen.  It should draft enough oxygen to keep a little blue flame at the top of the fire box with everything off and very little or no smoke when it's running right.  My stack temps drop to 200-225 between calling for heat but there is that small blue flame along the air holes when I crack the door and the temps on the front are 600-800 without the inducer running with an infrared thermometer.  There has been very little, only stage 1, creosote when I have cleaned the chimney.  

As a firefighter this thing in my mind is almost creating a backdraft situation, occasionally it will back puff when the wind is out of the south for me.  It's doing this when there isn't enough draft to keep a constant flame because my chimney is susceptible to down drafts off the roof.  When it does that I just give it a call for heat for 20 min then back the thermostat down again.  That gets the heat back up in the firebox and chimney so it's hot enough to keep a small draft and burn the gasses off and the problem stops.  This summer I'm going to add another 3 feet to the chimney and that should get it up from the roofline to stop that.


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## Mrpelletburner

Decided to buy this stove due to 3 factors, size match for my house, overall cost and my experience with customer service. Today I again reached out to customer service and spoke with the same person. Basically he explained exactly what @Medic21 posted.

What I have learned from your post and his suggestion is to get the initial burn hot, real hot. Coming from an old school wood stove, the amount of heat needed is crazy.

Since I started the stove yesterday, the blower would turn on for a 1 to 2 minutes every 5 minutes, not really providing any real heat output. Basically I didn’t get the initial fire hot enough. So following advice, added 4-6pcs of 2x2 splits, closed the fire door and opened the draft door (key is to make sure air can pass through the draft grate). Let that air feed the initial fire and let that stack get to at least 500degs. Next fill the rest of the box and open the draft door again, until the heat has recovered. The next time the blower came on, the house heated quickly and the blower remained on for about 20mins.

The person did mention that my draft is within spec, however I need to get a liner installed ASAP.


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## Mrpelletburner

This is what the stove and stack looked like today... not burning hot enough. Not good...


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## Turd Ferguson

Mrpelletburner said:


> This is what the stove and stack looked like today... not burning hot enough. Not good...



Sounds exactly like what I'm seeing. FC reps have said that I need to put a liner in...I don't really know why they say it's okay to use a conventional chimney in their installation manual. Seems misleading.


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## Mrpelletburner

Also forgot to mention.. smoke detectors sounded off at 3am (good times, they work). Assuming from the stove cooling down and creosol build up.

Was able to get the stove up to temp, blower stayed on for a good 20mins, house got nice and warm. Draft fan turned off, assuming this is when the stove losses heat (insert banging head emoji here).


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## Turd Ferguson

Mrpelletburner said:


> Also forgot to mention.. smoke detectors sounded off at 3am (good times, they work). Assuming from the stove cooling down and creosol build up.
> 
> Was able to get the stove up to temp, blower stayed on for a good 20mins, house got nice and warm. Draft fan turned off, assuming this is when the stove losses heat (insert banging head emoji here).


That's weird. Smoke or CO? Don't really understand how you'd have smoke introduced into the house except for a stack inversion.


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## Mrpelletburner

That is a good question... the smoke detector is a hard wired system and also CO detectors. The audible alarm said fire detected. I need to look up if it will say CO detected. Going to install another CO unit closer, one that displays the level. My plumber suggested having a sprinkler head installed above the stove area.


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## Turd Ferguson

Mrpelletburner said:


> That is a good question... the smoke detector is a hard wired system and also CO detectors. The audible alarm said fire detected. I need to look up if it will say CO detected. Going to install another CO unit closer, one that displays the level. My plumber suggested having a sprinkler head installed above the stove area.


Fireman/engineer here. It's okay to have him pipe in a sprinkler head; however, do you have the necessary plumbing system capable of supplying enough GPM to the sprinkler head to actually put enough water through it to make a difference? In other words, could you piss faster on the fire?

At that point, it doesn't really matter if you're on city or well water. You'd want a booster pump to get you up to 100PSI. Presumably you'd dedicate this pump to the sprinkler head as you don't want to be using 100PSI on household appliances. You'd also want to be using black iron pipe as it's rated for that kind of pressure. As you can see, this tends to get pricey, quickly.


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## Mrpelletburner

Turd Ferguson said:


> Fireman/engineer here. It's okay to have him pipe in a sprinkler head; however, do you have the necessary plumbing system capable of supplying enough GPM to the sprinkler head to actually put enough water through it to make a difference? In other words, could you piss faster on the fire?
> 
> At that point, it doesn't really matter if you're on city or well water. You'd want a booster pump to get you up to 100PSI. Presumably you'd dedicate this pump to the sprinkler head as you don't want to be using 100PSI on household appliances. You'd also want to be using black iron pipe as it's rated for that kind of pressure. As you can see, this tends to get pricey, quickly.



Wow... he did not mention any of that. We are on well water, not the greatest pressure. Wonder what his quote is going to be. I was thinking of it's a extra level of safety. 

While on the topic of safety, the old stove manual stated in case of a power failure, close the damper flap. Now that they have locked the draft blower flap, not sure how to 100% choke the stove in the event of a power loss (in between starting that generator).


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## Turd Ferguson

Mrpelletburner said:


> Wow... he did not mention any of that. We are on well water, not the greatest pressure. Wonder what his quote is going to be. I was thinking of it's a extra level of safety.
> 
> While on the topic of safety, the old stove manual stated in case of a power failure, close the damper flap. Now that they have locked the draft blower flap, not sure how to 100% choke the stove in the event of a power loss (in between starting that generator).


You are right, there's no way to completely shut the stove down now that they've riveted the door shut.

Typical commercial sprinkler heads operate around 100-150PSI. I am on well water as well, and I'd need to do a booster pump + accumulator so that it has a reserve of pressurized water in case something arised. I'm sure you could get decent performance on 50PSI but it's not going to deliver the designed gallonage.

It goes without saying, but don't take my word for it- any system you use should be approved and signed off by your insurance company, a licensed (PE) fire protection engineer and your local building authority. Wouldn't want to see your house burn down and your insurance co not cover you because of some silly technicality.


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## DoubleB

Mrpelletburner said:


> My plumber suggested having a sprinkler head installed above the stove area.





Turd Ferguson said:


> any system you use should be approved and signed off by your insurance company, a licensed (PE) fire protection engineer and your local building authority.



Woah, horsie.  I don't recall hearing, at least on this forum, of an insurance company requiring a sprinkler system in a residence with a wood furnace.  If you want to do a sprinkler system, I applaud the safety mindset.  That said, I wouldn't assume that plumber's opinion is a mandate.  

It would only take me one occurrence of a puff of smoke causing the sprinkler to douse a perfectly good furnace, until I'd rip it back out.


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## Mrpelletburner

Where is that like button [emoji23][emoji23]


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## Medic21

DoubleB said:


> Woah, horsie.  I don't recall hearing, at least on this forum, of an insurance company requiring a sprinkler system in a residence with a wood furnace.  If you want to do a sprinkler system, I applaud the safety mindset.  That said, I wouldn't assume that plumber's opinion is a mandate.
> 
> It would only take me one occurrence of a puff of smoke causing the sprinkler to douse a perfectly good furnace, until I'd rip it back out.



Lol, I doesn't work that way.  Takes a good amount of heat to set the sprinkler off.  Most are between 135-170 degrees.  That said I don't think one would come close to the gpm needed for a fire.


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## Medic21

You have experienced what I have.  The fire box temps are high but flue cools and the gasses ignite.  I have been sitting there and seen it happen.  Blows a large amount of smoke out of the inducer.   If it would cool enough and the outside temp and humidity would be right a flue inversion is very possible.  

Shelters instructions require a lined chimney.


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## Turd Ferguson

DoubleB said:


> Woah, horsie.  I don't recall hearing, at least on this forum, of an insurance company requiring a sprinkler system in a residence with a wood furnace.  If you want to do a sprinkler system, I applaud the safety mindset.  That said, I wouldn't assume that plumber's opinion is a mandate.
> 
> It would only take me one occurrence of a puff of smoke causing the sprinkler to douse a perfectly good furnace, until I'd rip it back out.


I never said it was required, only that the insurance company has been made aware and approves of it. I'm sure he would get a discount on his insurance for having one.

Here's the thing about advice on the internet: people take an idea and run with it. I wouldn't want him to build a full system based on mine (or anyone's) uninformed, and certainly unlicensed opinion(s) and, should the day come when it is required to perform, it fails to do its job. Just looking out for the guy.


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## Medic21

Got my auber probe temp sensor today.  Holding 400-450 while burning with the inducer running.  250-300 with it off.  I noticed how fast the temp rises on an electronic sensor when loading and firing it.  Pretty quick to get to 800 by the time the other probe hits 550.  I like the ability of not running to the basement to check it.


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## Mrpelletburner

Looks like another toy to order!


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## JRHAWK9

Here's another option for remote monitoring of temps. 
https://www.thermoworks.com/Smoke

I have it and it works FANTASTIC.  I use it to remotely monitor my flue and plenum temps.  However, it may not work for you guys if you are seeing internal flue temps of 800° at times.  The probes have a max temp rating of 572°, according to the manual.  Also has high and low alarms you can set.

Here's a screen shot of how I monitor all my temps while at work, by way of a Foscam R2 IP camera.




The remote Smoke on the left, monitors my flue temp (top) and plenum temp (bottom).  The panel on the right monitors my outdoor temp near the creek (top left), outdoor temp on porch right outside front door (bottom left), inside house temp (top right) and wood furnace return air temp (bottom right).  The wood furnace return air temp sensor is placed inside the blower box.

I also have one downstairs monitoring the wood furnace (it's dark down there so the camera is using infrared, that's why it's grayscale):


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## STIHLY DAN

Ok, that is beyond OCD. someone may need to see a shrink. seriously, thats a lot of effort for heat.


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## Mrpelletburner

JRHAWK9 said:


> View attachment 223392



What are the 2 ~4" ducts above the stove door?


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## JRHAWK9

STIHLY DAN said:


> Ok, that is beyond OCD. someone may need to see a shrink. seriously, thats a lot of effort for heat.



ya know, I was thinking about you as I was typing this.....lol    I KNEW you were going to comment and think I am completely off my rocker.  Really though, wasn't much effort at all.  I like the piece of mind of knowing things are OK at home when at work.  Plus I can keep an eye on the dogs while at work too.  The VERY first day I had it I saw our youngest golden knock the full bowl of cat food off the chair and continue to eat the WHOLE thing.


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## JRHAWK9

Mrpelletburner said:


> What are the 2 ~4" ducts above the stove door?



I'm reclaiming some of the radiant heat off the face of the furnace and injecting it into my return air.  This is why my return air is warmer than the house temp.


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## Medic21

24 hours after installing the auber probe, which I verified accuracy with boiling water, and I have found that my $17 probe thermometer is reading 50-75 degrees high at 550-600.  Good to know and I was able to open up the air to it a little which helps during times the inducer is not running.

I have found that very little adjustment on the inducer slide, 1/8"-1/4", is 100 degrees difference in temps.  I'm not trying to be a slave to flue temps but, do want it running at optimal performance without creosote buildup and still safe.  

I need to get the engineer in the family, aka Dad, involved since I have a 24v actuator and an output on the master unit for temp to find a way to make the adjustments automatic.  I would like a way to have the slide open up all the way when the inducer stops to allow for a better natural draft.  I think that would keep it cleaner.  A simple air control in the lower door would have been perfect but, I know that defeats the purpose of an EPA stove.


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## Mrpelletburner

Yesterday/today I have had much better luck, actually have the slider opened at the moment. Was able to get the house to go from 69 degrees to 76 degrees very quickly last night.

So what did I change.... I removed a straight 1' long flue pipe exiting from the back of the stove and replaced with an adjustable 90 degree elbow. The result is a more direct path to the chimney. 

Also installed a temperature gauge prob inside the flue, about 18" up from the elbow. (I hope tomorrow to install my SS liner).

When first starting the stove, I started with a small fire keeping the bottom draft door opened until the inner fire was glowing red (basically the clean out glows red from the fire above). Then, I added some larger logs on top and again let them start to burn with the draft door opened. After about 10mins, I added 3 larger logs, keeping the top door opened and the draft door closed. Once the larger logs have a nice surface burn, I then closed the loading door. This whole process takes about 20mins to ½ hour.

At this point the stove should be ready to go. According to the folks at HY-C, the top left corner of the load door should be at least 800 degrees using a laser temp gauge. According to my flue pipe temperature gauge, the inner flue temp at 18" from the stove read ~650-700 degrees.

Following this start up procedure, I was able to get the blower to run for about 15-20mins and then cycle to maintain. Talking to a tech at HY-C, they stated "on" for 2-3mins and "off" for about 5mins is normal.

This is the parts I am still figuring out. 

1) Let's say I add 3-4 logs and no longer need the draft blower to run for the next couple hours. While the blower still kicks on about every 5mins or so, the stove (upper corner of the front door) will stay between 400-500 degrees (most likely a lot hotter inside the stove). However my flue temp will go down to 100 degrees with just about no smoke exiting out of the chimney. If I kick on the draft blower for a couple minutes, the flue temp will quickly jump to over 300 degrees, even climb to 400 degrees. I can only assume that this is how the stove functions.

2) When I woke up this morning, I had about 2-3" of unburned coals, some still hot red, however more just black and not hot. My old stove would burn almost everything down to a fine powder. Is this normal? Just assumed that the draft blower would force coals to burn to a dust.

3) Cleaning out, starting that next fire. In the morning, with the chunks of red and black coals, do you just toss wood on top and get the fire going again, or do you remove the black chunks?

4) Do you rake the coals so they fall through the draft grate?


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## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> While the blower still kicks on about every 5mins or so, the stove (upper corner of the front door) will stay between 400-500 degrees (most likely a lot hotter inside the stove). However my flue temp will go down to 100 degrees with just about no smoke exiting out of the chimney. If I kick on the draft blower for a couple minutes, the flue temp will quickly jump to over 300 degrees, even climb to 400 degrees. I can only assume that this is how the stove functions.


You will very likely carry more flue temp for longer after you install that liner...chimney is probably cooling and losing draft.


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## Medic21

Mrpelletburner said:


> 2) When I woke up this morning, I had about 2-3" of unburned coals, some still hot red, however more just black and not hot. My old stove would burn almost everything down to a fine powder. Is this normal? Just assumed that the draft blower would force coals to burn to a dust.
> 
> 3) Cleaning out, starting that next fire. In the morning, with the chunks of red and black coals, do you just toss wood on top and get the fire going again, or do you remove the black chunks?
> 
> 4) Do you rake the coals so they fall through the draft grate?



I usually end up with 3-4 inches of good hot coal that the blower will still cycle in and off with.  If I shut off the blower I have had enough coals buried in there 48 hours later to get a fire going again.

I clean out what is in front and try to sift through.  In no way do I clean it out completely except once a week.  This burns front to back so the highest amount of coal will be along the back. 

I use kindling and go through the process of starting if there are not large chunks of coal.    The fire box being warm or even somewhat hot makes the process faster. It takes me 30 min in the morning to get it loaded full again if I don't fill it before I lose those large chunks.  I fill at 9pm before bed and At 5 I can just throw in large splits a layer at a time to get it going again.  One thing I have started doing is using an ash shovel to bank the coals to both sides so when I load it the middle piece sits almost on the bottom of the fire box then a full layer above that.  I can shut the door and it will last 4 hours like that if I'm home.  It seams to burn much more even when banked.  If not it will burn from the left to right as much as front to back.

My biggest issue right now is it's 47 degrees out and unless I want it 80 in the house I can't burn over 40 degrees.  I'm looking for an older non EPA model that has the air dial in the ash door.  They are the same size and I think that could make it more useful on days like today.  The other option may be adding an air intake like secondary tubes that can be manually controlled without the inducer.


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## brenndatomu

Medic21 said:


> One thing I have started doing is using an ash shovel to bank the coals to both sides so when I load it the middle piece sits almost on the bottom of the fire box then a full layer above that. I can shut the door and it will last 4 hours like that if I'm home. It seams to burn much more even when banked. If not it will burn from the left to right as much as front to back.


Ever try pulling the coals to the front, then load on that?


Medic21 said:


> My biggest issue right now is it's 47 degrees out and unless I want it 80 in the house I can't burn over 40 degrees. I'm looking for an older non EPA model that has the air dial in the ash door. They are the same size and I think that could make it more useful on days like today.


An older furnace will not do any better on warmer days...it will only crap the chimney up if you try to run "low and slow"
Wood heat in the springtime/fall type weather becomes more about learning to do small/hot/quick loads, figuring out the timing of the loads (obviously doing less loads) and getting used to letting the house temp swing a little...no practical way you can control to within a couple degrees.
What we did for the "shoulder season" heating was to install a wood insert stove in the LR fireplace...has worked out real well. Its a 1.8 CF stove so it will do small/hot/quick fires much better than a big ole furnace...


----------



## JRHAWK9

Medic21 said:


> My biggest issue right now is it's 47 degrees out and unless I want it 80 in the house I can't burn over 40 degrees.  I'm looking for an older non EPA model that has the air dial in the ash door.  They are the same size and I think that could make it more useful on days like today.  The other option may be adding an air intake like secondary tubes that can be manually controlled without the inducer.



I can't keep a continuous fire going if it's consistently over 25-30°.  Got down to 22° overnight last night and it's currently 75° in the house and I didn't have a fire going for most of the day yesterday.  It's the nature of the beast with wood furnaces.  Like bren mentioned above, the older smoke dragons will be even worse/less safe during the shoulder seasons.  You need to make small/quick/hot fires.  When it gets to be the shoulder season I do lighter main fire at night and then MAYBE another VERY small one either when I get home from work or in the morning.  Talking about 15 lbs or so for the very small loads, enough for 2-3 hours of heat.  I basically mainly heat the house at night and then let the inside temp coast down during the day.  Then get home and either light the very small load or wait till bedtime and do just an light overnight load.  It all depends, for me, on how warm it's going to be and if the sun will be shining, as we get tremendous solar gain due to  the ~120 SF of southern exposure window area we have.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Well installed a SS liner today. Took about 3.5hrs total. Got hung up on a jog in the flue. Ended up making a cone out of flashing, eyelet bolt and an clamp. Attaching a rope to the bottom, helped move things along.

This is definitely a 2 person job and worth the extra $$ to buy the install cone.

Will see how things go.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## woodey

JRHAWK9 said:


> I can't keep a continuous fire going if it's consistently over 25-30°.  Got down to 22° overnight last night and it's currently 75° in the house and I didn't have a fire going for most of the day yesterday.  It's the nature of the beast with wood furnaces.  Like bren mentioned above, the older smoke dragons will be even worse/less safe during the shoulder seasons.  You need to make small/quick/hot fires.  When it gets to be the shoulder season I do lighter main fire at night and then MAYBE another VERY small one either when I get home from work or in the morning.  Talking about 15 lbs or so for the very small loads, enough for 2-3 hours of heat.  I basically mainly heat the house at night and then let the inside temp coast down during the day.  Then get home and either light the very small load or wait till bedtime and do just an light overnight load.  It all depends, for me, on how warm it's going to be and if the sun will be shining, as we get tremendous solar gain due to  the ~120 SF of southern exposure window area we have.





Basically doing the same thing here with the warmer than avg. Feb. temps.  Can still get a clean burn with day temps in the 40s, Getting great results by doing what JR. said. By putting on 3 smaller splits and the Kuuma on low for  @ 2hr  (or until most of the moisture is gone) I then switch off the computer let  coals burn on pilot. The blower may kick in 1-2 times per Hr. and gravity  heat keeps the house at 70-72 for several hours. I do have more seasoned wood set aside for this purpose  and  check the stove, pipes and chimney every day.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

So far I am not sure the liner has made that much of a difference other then an added safety factor.

With the stove in "idle" mode, over time, the inner flue temperature still goes down to ~100 - 150 degrees. Perhaps this will be normal and perhaps the liner just helps recover the flue temperature faster?

Using my Mark ii 25 manometer, the draft prior to installing the SS liner measured .08. Now readings jump between .08 to 1.04. Will need to reach out to HY-C to inquire about installing a draft regulator as the manual states one might be required, however HY-C support stated the manual is still being update.


Last, not sure why, but with this stove, the house has a much stronger camp fire/wood stove smell. Could also be that new stove burn off still. The smell kind of gives you a slight headache.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Mrpelletburner said:


> Using my Mark ii 25 manometer, the draft prior to installing the SS liner measured .08. Now readings jump between .08 to 1.04.



IMO, that's WAY too much draft! Your furnace may require more, but I'm guessing that's way too much.  Most are around the -0.06" W.C. area.


----------



## brenndatomu

This! ^ ^ ^


Mrpelletburner said:


> Last, not sure why, but with this stove, the house has a much stronger camp fire/wood stove smell. Could also be that new stove burn off still. The smell kind of gives you a slight headache


Not good! Get a CO detector immediately if you don't have one! A headache is one of the early signs of CO poisoning!


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> Not good! Get a CO detector immediately if you don't have one! A headache is one of the early signs of CO poisoning!



  I completely missed that part.  

yeah, that's not good.  I have a CO detector which displays the current PPM of CO as well as the max it senses.


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## Mrpelletburner

We have CO detectors in just about every room. Going to pick up another one with a readout and install near the stove area.

For a stove that is not supposed to generate a lot of smoke, there is still a good amount of smoke exiting out of the stack. Surface stove temp (upper left corner) reads 650-700 degrees, however the inner flue only reads ~250degrees. So far running exactly like before the liner install.


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## brenndatomu

How tight is your house? Maybe the furnace/chimney is struggling for makeup air? That will cause smoke in the house.
Surprisingly a leaky house can have issues too, look up "Florida bungalow syndrome" the whole house acts like a chimney, the warm air rises to the top, creates a slight negative pressure in the lowest level.
Try cracking a nearby door or window on the next load, see if that changes anything.


----------



## Medic21

Mrpelletburner said:


> So far I am not sure the liner has made that much of a difference other then an added safety factor.
> 
> With the stove in "idle" mode, over time, the inner flue temperature still goes down to ~100 - 150 degrees. Perhaps this will be normal and perhaps the liner just helps recover the flue temperature faster?
> 
> Using my Mark ii 25 manometer, the draft prior to installing the SS liner measured .08. Now readings jump between .08 to 1.04. Will need to reach out to HY-C to inquire about installing a draft regulator as the manual states one might be required, however HY-C support stated the manual is still being update.
> 
> 
> Last, not sure why, but with this stove, the house has a much stronger camp fire/wood stove smell. Could also be that new stove burn off still. The smell kind of gives you a slight headache.



I have gotten this too.  Usually when it's warmer and Humid out.  I load too much and the draft drops off.  Less load and inducer running longer and no problems here.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

It is ~34 degrees outside right now and rain. I have had the basement door cracked opened today, help with the air flow.

Just installed another CO detector with a readout as the other CO detectors didn’t have a readout. 

The smoke could be from 2 sources... 1 the crazy amount of smoke from the stack blowing down against the house as there has been a slight breeze today. The other source has been anytime I open the load door, even opening the draft door first.  I have also had some major back draft puffs. One happened after I closed the draft door. Assuming the smoke ignites, causing the puff of smoke.

We did crack open a couple windows.

I will say, this stove outputs some serious heat!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Medic21

Mrpelletburner said:


> It is ~34 degrees outside right now and rain. I have had the basement door cracked opened today, help with the air flow.
> 
> Just installed another CO detector with a readout as the other CO detectors didn’t have a readout.
> 
> The smoke could be from 2 sources... 1 the crazy amount of smoke from the stack blowing down against the house as there has been a slight breeze today. The other source has been anytime I open the load door, even opening the draft door first.  I have also had some major back draft puffs. One happened after I closed the draft door. Assuming the smoke ignites, causing the puff of smoke.
> 
> We did crack open a couple windows.
> 
> I will say, this stove outputs some serious heat!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I get a good amount of smoke opening to fill and so far I have not found a way to stop that.  I tell the wife it's the price of free heat.  It does help to run the inducer on for a few min prior to opening and I just added a switch to do that at the stove today. 

Anytime it back puffs is because of not enough air and a bunch of fuel. The dryer the wood the worse that is.  Smoke is fuel, there is enough heat, all it needs is air.  Wether it's CO, off gassing, or just the smoke it can't burn in a rich environment as it pulls enough air it literally explodes.   Whenever it happen crank the thermostat up and let the inducer give it air or crack the door and give some air that way.  The problem usually resolves after a little burning and the wood puts off less fuel and can burn with the little air this drafts.  Key is to have a small flame at all times.  You may not need to load as much as you are.

Yes it puts out the heat.  My fan blows constant while the inducer is running and it heats the house quick.  Once you dial it in your golden though.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

The CO detector reads 0.... There still is that strong smoke smell. Perhaps it is the smoke from the chimney blowing back against the house? The house is 2x6 construction and very well insulated, not sure if that means air tight. I have the basement door opened a little bit to help add additional fresh air.

Even with a window slightly opened, the house is still 73.

Here are some photos


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## woodey

Mrpelletburner said:


> The CO detector reads 0.... There still is that strong smoke smell. Perhaps it is the smoke from the chimney blowing back against the house? The house is 2x6 construction and very well insulated, not sure if that means air tight. I have the basement door opened a little bit to help add additional fresh air.
> 
> Even with a window slightly opened, the house is still 73.
> ment
> Here are some photos
> 
> View attachment 223534
> View attachment 223535
> View attachment 223536
> View attachment 223537
> View attachment 223538
> View attachment 223539


Do you have  larger seasoned splits you can place stacked front to back  and nothing side to side .  The placement of the wood in the pic(along with the small splits).allows for to much air movement between the wood  causing a very  very hot quick  burn.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

woodey said:


> Do you have  larger seasoned splits you can place stacked front to back  and nothing side to side .  The placement of the wood in the pic(along with the small splits).allows for to much air movement between the wood  causing a very  very hot quick  burn.



I do... so 3-4 stacked in the center, front to back?


----------



## brenndatomu

woodey said:


> Do you have  larger seasoned splits you can place stacked front to back  and nothing side to side .  The placement of the wood in the pic(along with the small splits).allows for to much air movement between the wood  causing a very  very hot quick  burn.


Great point!
Stacking tighter and using larger pieces are another way of extending the burn time out.
Normally you would use this trick during colder weather, so you will normally have hot coals left to load on, which is good, because trying to ignite larger tightly stacked splits from a cold start is _very_ difficult!


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## JRHAWK9

The tighter you can pack them the better it will be.  The looser you pack them the more surface area you have to ignite.


----------



## brenndatomu

That log cabin style stacking of smaller splits works great for a quick/hot (short lived) fire on a spring or fall day though!


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> That log cabin style stacking of smaller splits works great for a quick/hot (short lived) fire on a spring or fall day though!



yep.....I was assuming he was after longer burn times.  You won't accomplish that with so much free space between logs, especially a furnace like they have.


----------



## Medic21

Another thing. Load and get burning one layer at a time.  If you load it tight it will take forever to get burning and if the inducer kicks out befor all is burning good you will get those puffs.

I was lucky I have cut and split at 20" my whole life so everything was perfect to load.  I have two stacks in the basement.  One stack is the size of what you loaded the other is squares the three across barely fit.  For over night on a cold night I'll do 2 1/2 rows getting each layer going before I add the next.  Then I turn it down to 71 degrees.  Will go 10 hours like that.


----------



## brenndatomu

Medic21 said:


> Load and get burning one layer at a time


Boy, that sounds like a pain...recipe for a lotta smoke roll out, no?


----------



## Medic21

brenndatomu said:


> Boy, that sounds like a pain...recipe for a lotta smoke roll out, no?



It is a pain in the ass.  There is not enough airflow with natural draft and the inducer is not enough to supple the needed air to get it burning.  Case in point, the flue temp remains the same with one split loaded or with it stuffed full when loading.  Before I did that I would get backpuffing when the inducer shut off.  Once the layers are charred I don't have that problem.


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## brenndatomu

I've only ever owned 1 wood furnace that had a draft inducer...I hated it, and highly doubt I'll ever own another...I ended up turning it off and just run it manually, basically treated it like a large central heating wood stove...


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## Mrpelletburner

When loading it tonight, I followed the 1 row at a time method. Amazingly, I didn't have any smoke filling the basement when loading.


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## Turd Ferguson

I too am getting better at loading this thing. Got the door temperature up and over 700 degrees over the weekend, and got the house to 65+. It was interesting finally cycling off the high-limit instead of the low-limit, haha.

I still need to do some more fine tuning with reloading while the thermostat is satisfied. If the logs don't catch before I close the door, it takes FOREVER for the furnace to come back up to operating temperature. Door temp is at or under 300 degrees.


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## Mrpelletburner

First image at 10:40 last night, thermostat set to 71. Second image from 7:40am today. Stove was still throwing heat (thermostat read 72). Believe it was ~29 degrees out last night. 

My old stove would of needed a refill at 2:30-3:30am.


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## Mrpelletburner

So back to the smoke smell and my headache. 

The rooms where I get the strongest smell of smoke is my office and the basement. My office is almost directly above the stove and has a floor register, which is almost a straight shot from the stove. The other ducts are located towards the middle and opposite end of the house.

After loading the stove last night, I noticed that the smoke smell was the strongest when the draft blower was off for an extended period of time (basement door to the bulkhead open ~½" and the door to the basement was opened). In fact, if I was to think back to each time the smoke smell was the strongest, it was when the draft blower was off for extended periods of time. So if I loaded the stove at 10:40pm, the smoke smell was around/after midnight.

I did go to the basement several times to check for leaks from the flue pipe and stove doors, absolutely nothing. I also didn't open either door on the stove, in order to eliminate adding smoke into the air. Noticed that the basement, around the stove, did have a smoke smell, however no smoke clouds in the air. Also my CO detector has stayed at 0.

This morning when checking on the stove, besides the typical wood stove smell, the smoke smell was not over powering. Same could be said for my office area, assuming because the draft blower was running.

Could the smoke smell be small amounts of smoke leaking from my black stove pipe? Purchased the stove pipe at lowes and read that I should invest into black stove pipe from a local stove shop (better quality)?


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## Turd Ferguson

You could take a pressure measurement at the inducer when it's off to see whether the stove is pulling a draft through the inducer vanes or if it's pushing out of it. You could also test in other places to rule out/in those locations as potential sources of the odor you're smelling.

Lowe's carries a sheet metal crimp tool, $20. I've used it to crimp up the ductwork when I installed my ducting to the house. Depending on the stove pipe ductwork, maybe it needs more/less crimp? I wouldn't go re-crimping until you've found the source of the odor though. You could also pick up some incense sticks and light them to see where the smoke goes around the various joints in the stove?


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## Mrpelletburner

Turd Ferguson said:


> You could also pick up some incense sticks and light them to see where the smoke goes around the various joints in the stove?



Did this using a lighter. The inducer opening pulls the flame in when off. Several spots around the flue duct where the flame is pulled into the duct.


----------



## Medic21

Mrpelletburner said:


> Did this using a lighter. The inducer opening pulls the flame in when off. Several spots around the flue duct where the flame is pulled into the duct.



Do the same with the circulation blower on. Assuming you don't have a cold air return going above the basement.  If your house is well sealed and the return air is restricted to the basement it will pull air from somewhere.


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## Mrpelletburner

Medic21 said:


> Assuming you don't have a cold air return going above the basement.



Correct... We keep the basement door either all the way opened or opened about 4", which I think should be enough to match the return. I also have the basement door opened about 1/2". If we could get another 60deg day, I would install my new basement windows and crack them open.




Medic21 said:


> If your house is well sealed and the return air is restricted to the basement it will pull air from somewhere.



The head scratcher is how the smoke smell is strongest in the office, which is directly above the stove. Also strong in the basement, however could be from loading the stove. I remember my old stove once and a while would retain the smoke smell when loading. The rest of the house doesn't have that same hardcore in your face campfire smell.

Today I have the heat off and windows open, trying to air out the house.



Older photo, before I switched the elbow out. Couple spots of the black draft pipe does this, always pulling into the flue with and without the draft blower running.


----------



## Turd Ferguson

Mrpelletburner said:


> Correct... We keep the basement door either all the way opened or opened about 4", which I think should be enough to match the return. I also have the basement door opened about 1/2". If we could get another 60deg day, I would install my new basement windows and crack them open.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The head scratcher is how the smoke smell is strongest in the office, which is directly above the stove. Also strong in the basement, however could be from loading the stove. I remember my old stove once and a while would retain the smoke smell when loading. The rest of the house doesn't have that same hardcore in your face campfire smell.
> 
> Today I have the heat off and windows open, trying to air out the house.
> 
> 
> 
> Older photo, before I switched the elbow out. Couple spots of the black draft pipe does this, always pulling into the flue with and without the draft blower running.
> 
> View attachment 223575


Try it with the inducer going. It'll change the pressure differential for sure.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Wonder is this is the issue... 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Turd Ferguson

Mrpelletburner said:


> Wonder is this is the issue...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Is that with the draft blower going?

What temperature is the firebox? What's the temperature of the flue?


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## Mrpelletburner

Turd Ferguson said:


> Is that with the draft blower going?
> 
> What temperature is the firebox? What's the temperature of the flue?



Yes, draft blower and main blower running. You can see at the end of the video the main blower shut off.

Stack 125degs 
Upper left corner of the door area 425degs
.05 draft

All other seams of the flute pipe pulls in the flame, this connection does the opposite, only when the blower is running.


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## Turd Ferguson

I can't see how the HVAC blower would have an effect on smoke/by-products of combustion escaping the flue pipe. Does the draft blower continue to run the whole video?


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## maple1

If your blower is pushing air out the flu pipe connection (I think that is what I'm seeing?), that would be something fairly seriously amiss.


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## brenndatomu

The blower is pushing air out around the flue pipe where it comes through the outer air jacket. The collar must not fit too tight there.
If you want to tighten things up there I'd get some wood stove door gasket material and put a wrap around there nice n tight...kinda tucked into the gap...then get a 6" hose clamp to put around it to hold things in place.


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## Mrpelletburner

Perhaps I need to buy and should of purchased flue pipe from the local stove shop store vs lowes.


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## Mrpelletburner

Witness this over and over tonight. Draft blower not running, stove surface ~800degrees, stack ~250 degrees. Didn’t open door or adjust anything. Heard the smoke igniting, causing the “poof affect” sitting upstairs. Scary stuff...


----------



## laynes69

That's either from a lack of oxygen or poor draft. If possible, open up the air a little. Have you checked the chimney to make sure things are clean?


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## Mrpelletburner

Just and I mean just installed a SS liner on Saturday.

Basement door opened about 4”.


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## Medic21

I fixed that problem by burning longer.  Turn your thermostat up and burn longer.  I load a little lighter as it warms up because of this.  If you get the wood burnt down past the point of it smoldering and getting it to hold a flame in the box it will stop. This is why my house gets up to 75-77 degrees at times.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Will try that approach tonight.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Just thought I'd throw this out there.

I know of a guy who has a Kuuma VF100 who overturned the adjustable pot on the computer which controls the primary air intake based on firebox temps and therefore screwing it up.  He then had no idea where it was set at.  He just took a guess and left it there.  Soon after this happened, he was noticing buff-backs on almost every load about an hour after re-loading and also reduced heat output.  My guess was wherever he had it set at was outside of the normal operating range and therefore the computer was not controlling the primary air correctly.  He ended up contacting Daryl and they sent him a spare computer so he could continue to burn while he sent his in to have the damaged pot replaced.  As soon as he swapped computers the issue went away and he regained his heat output.  Same goes when he received his computer back fixed.  The final bill to fix his computer was something like $25, including the cost to ship.

Anyway, I'm telling you this because the only difference between the furnace running great and not having back-puffs vs not running well and having back-puffs was simply the control of the primary air.  Everything else remained the same.  This maybe the case with yours as well.  You just may have to figure out what needs to be done to give the firebox the air it needs.


----------



## Turd Ferguson

JRHAWK9 said:


> Just thought I'd throw this out there.
> 
> I know of a guy who has a Kuuma VF100 who overturned the adjustable pot on the computer which controls the primary air intake based on firebox temps and therefore screwing it up.  He then had no idea where it was set at.  He just took a guess and left it there.  Soon after this happened, he was noticing buff-backs on almost every load about an hour after re-loading and also reduced heat output.  My guess was wherever he had it set at was outside of the normal operating range and therefore the computer was not controlling the primary air correctly.  He ended up contacting Daryl and they sent him a spare computer so he could continue to burn while he sent his in to have the damaged pot replaced.  As soon as he swapped computers the issue went away and he regained his heat output.  Same goes when he received his computer back fixed.  The final bill to fix his computer was something like $25, including the cost to ship.
> 
> Anyway, I'm telling you this because the only difference between the furnace running great and not having back-puffs vs not running well and having back-puffs was simply the control of the primary air.  Everything else remained the same.  This maybe the case with yours as well.  You just may have to figure out what needs to be done to give the firebox the air it needs.


There is exactly no control that we have over the primary or secondary air intakes. It's "pre-set" at the factory by riveting the intake door to the inducer in place. I have been assured by Fire Chief's tech support that if I drill this rivet out, I immediately void my warranty. Thus, I/we have no control whatsoever over any air controls on this unit.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Turd Ferguson said:


> There is exactly no control that we have over the primary or secondary air intakes. It's "pre-set" at the factory by riveting the intake door to the inducer in place. I have been assured by Fire Chief's tech support that if I drill this rivet out, I immediately void my warranty. Thus, I/we have no control whatsoever over any air controls on this unit.



yikes!  Sorry, I'm guessing this was mentioned before and I just missed it.  

Was this something you knew about when you purchased it?  This would have been a deal breaker for sure.


----------



## Turd Ferguson

JRHAWK9 said:


> yikes!  Sorry, I'm guessing this was mentioned before and I just missed it.
> 
> Was this something you knew about when you purchased it?  This would have been a deal breaker for sure.


I wasn't aware of it. I certainly would have raised an objection over it for sure.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Turd Ferguson said:


> I wasn't aware of it. I certainly would have raised an objection over it for sure.



It's like a car manufacturer knowingly leaving the throttle plate off of a carb.  It will run great at one RPM/load and that's it.


----------



## Turd Ferguson

JRHAWK9 said:


> It's like a car manufacturer knowingly leaving the throttle plate off of a carb.  It will run great at one RPM/load and that's it.


I think they needed to rivet the door shut because apparently people were overfiring their stoves with leaving it at full tilt. Either that, or they had to keep it like that to get their EPA certification.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Called the company to inquire about the double rivet. When the stove was first released, the flap was not riveted and they discovered us "wood burners" like to play with settings ;P This was causing some stoves to crack due to thermal runaway. Solution..... add an extra rivet. 

I feel a spin draft dial would of been a nice option to have when starting or adding wood, something to allow extra air to enter.

Either case, I think Medic21 is right... Need to load a bit less to match the weather outside. This is all a learning curve.


----------



## Turd Ferguson

Mrpelletburner said:


> Called the company to inquire about the double rivet. When the stove was first released, the flap was not riveted and they discovered us "wood burners" like to play with settings ;P This was causing some stoves to crack due to thermal runaway. Solution..... add an extra rivet.
> 
> I feel a spin draft dial would of been a nice option to have when starting or adding wood, something to allow extra air to enter.
> 
> Either case, I think Medic21 is right... Need to load a bit less to match the weather outside. This is all a learning curve.


That confirms what I had heard from them as well. Yes, I agree, we need control over the air system, it's not their fault that some people don't know how to run their stoves.


----------



## 3fordasho

Turd Ferguson said:


> That confirms what I had heard from them as well. Yes, I agree, we need control over the air system, it's not their fault that some people don't know how to run their stoves.



If you look at the Drolet Tundra thread, you will see that some of us have added additional control to the air inlet flap dependent on flue temperature.
A similar thing could be done for the Shelter furnace, only you would control the air inlet motor.  Heck you might be able to get fancy and variable speed control that inlet motor.


----------



## Turd Ferguson

3fordasho said:


> If you look at the Drolet Tundra thread, you will see that some of us have added additional control to the air inlet flap dependent on flue temperature.
> A similar thing could be done for the Shelter furnace, only you would control the air inlet motor.  Heck you might be able to get fancy and variable speed control that inlet motor.


I'll do that after the warranty is up, but not in the interim. I'd rather make Fire Chief fix their self-made problem.


----------



## 3fordasho

Turd Ferguson said:


> I'll do that after the warranty is up, but not in the interim. I'd rather make Fire Chief fix their self-made problem.




All these low tech, low cost furnaces have the issue.  Tundra no different.  The Kuuma and some wood gasification boilers don't have these issues but they cost $5-10k+.   Some of the difference in cost is the additional temp sensors, temp controls and stepper/servo motor(s) to control primary and secondary air automatically via temperature or even a lambda sensor in the flue stream. 

 If I hadn't modified my Tundra I don't think I could live with it, warranty be dam***.  What's to go wrong? it's a steel box.  If anything my additional control has prevented it from cracking and causing a warranty claim.


----------



## Turd Ferguson

3fordasho said:


> All these low tech, low cost furnaces have the issue.  Tundra no different.  The Kuuma and some wood gasification boilers don't have these issues but they cost $5-10k+.   Some of the difference in cost is the additional temp sensors, temp controls and stepper/servo motor(s) to control primary and secondary air automatically via temperature or even a lambda sensor in the flue stream.
> 
> If I hadn't modified my Tundra I don't think I could live with it, warranty be dam***.  What's to go wrong? it's a steel box.  If anything my additional control has prevented it from cracking and causing a warranty claim.


Unfortunately companies look for each and every way and method to get out of having to cover a warranty claim. I'm sure they would immediately point the finger at you and say "Look! You modified it!"


----------



## laynes69

Personally I'm not a fan of forced draft myself, been there done that. I don't know how Hy-C tested their furnaces, but something tells me the draft blower flap was probably open for testing. To close it and rivet it, if it wasn't tested that way would make it illegal I would think (for the company). I have a natural draft furnace, but there's provisions in the manual to adjust for extra air if needed. In the case of firecheif, by riveting the flap shut, they're assuming that all the drafts, wood load, moisture etc. remain equal across users, when its not true. If you load the furnace and it's at draft requirements and it's operated per manual, it should not be puffing smoke. I see that as an issue. Hopefully the company figures it out. As far as cracking, hearing from the face temps of the furnace and possibly glowing there's no doubt it will happen. The firebox should be fully lined and insulated so the furnace can come up to operating temps. With good seasoned wood, within 10 to 15 on a full load, our furnace becomes an inferno and it can be closed down.  If the wood is unseasoned, it could take 45 minutes to an hour with little to no heat output.


----------



## brenndatomu

laynes69 said:


> In the case of firecheif, by riveting the flap shut, they're assuming that all the drafts, wood load, moisture etc. remain equal across users, when its not true


The only way you would _ever_ see a draft that is even remotely held steady at a given spec would be if there was a barometric damper installed...do they call for one on these?


----------



## woodey

Mrpelletburner said:


> Called the company to inquire about the double rivet. When the stove was first released, the flap was not riveted and they discovered us "wood burners" like to play with settings ;P This was causing some stoves to crack due to thermal runaway. Solution..... add an extra rivet.
> 
> I feel a spin draft dial would of been a nice option to have when starting or adding wood, something to allow extra air to enter.
> 
> Either case, I think Medic21 is right... Need to load a bit less to match the weather outside. This is all a learning curve.





Mrpelletburner said:


> Called the company to inquire about the double rivet. When the stove was first released, the flap was not riveted and they discovered us "wood burners" like to play with settings ;P This was causing some stoves to crack due to thermal runaway. Solution..... add an extra rivet.
> 
> I feel a spin draft dial would of been a nice option to have when starting or adding wood, something to allow extra air to enter.
> 
> Either case, I think Medic21 is right... Need to load a bit less to match the weather outside. This is all a learning curve.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sorry if I missed this in a earlier post but does the top of your chimney exceed the peak of your roof?  If not maybe an extension on the chimney will help draft issues and if it exceeds your peak maybe a termination  cap on the chimney (if you dont have one now)  will prevent  back drafts.


----------



## Medic21

brenndatomu said:


> The only way you would _ever_ see a draft that is even remotely held steady at a given spec would be if there was a barometric damper installed...do they call for one on these?



The only time it's required is when you exceed max draft.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Chimney does extend past the roof line, not exactly sure how much, but it does. To prevent any smoke pulling via the pellet stove  flue, which is almost the San height, I am installing a 18” extension. This will also help distance further from the roof line.

Since installing the SS liner, I have noticed more “puffs” from the stove. Both from the Ash clean out door and when opening the load door.

Example... yesterday around 5:30 I had split 2 splits down to 2”x2” and added to the center of the fire box. Kept the load door opened until my surface temp gauge read 500 and the fire was well underway. At 6:15 I had to bring my some to hockey and noticed nothing but clouds of smoke in the yard and down the road. When back into the house and very very slowly opened the load door. BOOM! The stove was so locked with smoke, the second I introduced air, instant backdraft. (Basement Door was opened and draft blower was running). After a day with the windows opened, the house was back to smelling like a campfire.

After 5 mins with the load door opened ~¼”, the surface temp read 500 and the fire was back to running normal.

Would be nice to have a draft setting for when loading. Basically Monitor the stove surface temperature once it reaches 500 close the draft slider back to 3/8 open.


----------



## Turd Ferguson

Mrpelletburner said:


> Chimney does extend past the roof line, not exactly sure how much, but it does. To prevent any smoke pulling via the pellet stove  flue, which is almost the San height, I am installing a 18” extension. This will also help distance further from the roof line.
> 
> Since installing the SS liner, I have noticed more “puffs” from the stove. Both from the Ash clean out door and when opening the load door.
> 
> Example... yesterday around 5:30 I had split 2 splits down to 2”x2” and added to the center of the fire box. Kept the load door opened until my surface temp gauge read 500 and the fire was well underway. At 6:15 I had to bring my some to hockey and noticed nothing but clouds of smoke in the yard and down the road. When back into the house and very very slowly opened the load door. BOOM! The stove was so locked with smoke, the second I introduced air, instant backdraft. (Basement Door was opened and draft blower was running). After a day with the windows opened, the house was back to smelling like a campfire.
> 
> After 5 mins with the load door opened ~¼”, the surface temp read 500 and the fire was back to running normal.
> 
> Would be nice to have a draft setting for when loading. Basically Monitor the stove surface temperature once it reaches 500 close the draft slider back to 3/8 open.


I wonder if you crack the ash door prior to reloading if it will A) bring the stove back up to temperature which is important during a re-fuel, and B) flush all the smoke out of the chamber, making it impossible to have a backdraft.

With this shoulder weather, it's been hard for me to justify lighting the stove and I've been letting my heat pump handle what little heat demand I've had in the house. I need to do more extended experimentation.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Turd Ferguson said:


> I wonder if you crack the ash door prior to reloading



Had been opening the ash door as it was a great way to get the stove upto temp quick. However started experiencing backdrafts “puffs” when reloading. Actually after lining the flue, I have had more "puffs" then before.

When the stove does backdraft “puff”, it's like a gun firing. Think outside temps play a large part into the backdrafts.

Weather is to nice today to fire up the stove.


----------



## Turd Ferguson

Mrpelletburner said:


> Had been opening the ash door as it was a great way to get the stove upto temp quick. However started experiencing backdrafts “puffs” when reloading. Actually after lining the flue, I have had more "puffs" then before.
> 
> When the stove does backdraft “puff”, it's like a gun firing. Think outside temps play a large part into the backdrafts.
> 
> Weather is to nice today to fire up the stove.



I know I have a difficult time getting a proper draft established when the outside temp is over 40. Takes forever to get the draft pulling hard enough and it dumps smoke out the front door something awful.

I'd be curious to see your draft measurements when you're having difficulty, or when you experience backdrafts. I'm sure it's nowhere near what it should be.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Took advantage of the nice weather and updated both caps. 

Extended the stoves flue 18”, which brings it to ~4.5’ above the roof line.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

With the temps falling to 32 last night, I decided to run the stove. Started the fire around 7pm and refilled for the night at 11:15 with adding 4 medium size splits. To make sure the fire was going good, I left the clean out door opened till about 11:32, stove front surface temp reading 600 degrees. By 11:45 the stove nosedived to 400 degrees. 

At 12:15, 1 hour after initial reloading, the following happened. (Thermostat was set to 78, wanted draft blower to run).

Should I assume 2 things went wrong? To much fuel added and stove was not hot enough?


----------



## brenndatomu

I think you are cutting the air off too much, too fast. Having any of the doors open allows a TON of air to the fire...and then bam, you close the door and all the air it gets is from that little opening on the blower intake...too much too fast.
Even on a manually controlled wood stove if you close the primary air down too fast you'll get a poof...and that is a much smaller adjustment than what you are making by closing the door.
My personal opinion is you are leaving that door open waaaaaaaaay too long...the fire is getting too big and it is _very_ difficult to dial that back in a controlled manner once the wood gets to off gassing that hard.
Use the door to just *start* the fire, and then close the door and let the blower provide the air...do this before the fire gets too large or hot.
My 2 cents...from my experience on other units...but certain principles apply to any stove/furnace


----------



## Turd Ferguson

Mrpelletburner said:


> With the temps falling to 32 last night, I decided to run the stove. Started the fire around 7pm and refilled for the night at 11:15 with adding 4 medium size splits. To make sure the fire was going good, I left the clean out door opened till about 11:32, stove front surface temp reading 600 degrees. By 11:45 the stove nosedived to 400 degrees.
> 
> At 12:15, 1 hour after initial reloading, the following happened. (Thermostat was set to 78, wanted draft blower to run).
> 
> Should I assume 2 things went wrong? To much fuel added and stove was not hot enough?



Wow. That's not right, not by a long shot. What has FC said about it? Have you reached out to them?

I am going to run mine tonight- we will see what happens.


----------



## laynes69

I'm with Bren, you're causing an abundance of smoke running with the door open like that. The chimney is the engine of the system, just let the design of the furnace work like it should. You should be able to load on coals and shut the door and turn on the draft blower. Within 10 minutes or less that load should be burning well. If not, I would question the quality of the wood (seasoned or not). That's if your draft is where it needs to be.


----------



## Turd Ferguson

laynes69 said:


> I'm with Bren, you're causing an abundance of smoke running with the door open like that. The chimney is the engine of the system, just let the design of the furnace work like it should. You should be able to load on coals and shut the door and turn on the draft blower. Within 10 minutes or less that load should be burning well. If not, I would question the quality of the wood (seasoned or not). That's if your draft is where it needs to be.


Sounds like he has an excess of draft; I wouldn't be concerned about that.

FC has advised that we need to be hitting 600F+ on the front of the door. Most of us can't do that when starting except to leave the door open.


----------



## brenndatomu

Turd Ferguson said:


> FC has advised that we need to be hitting 600F+ on the front of the door


Man, I'd question them on that...seems awful hot...my Tundra runs perfectly at 350*...different furnace and door I know, but still, we are talking external temps, internal will be WAAAAAAAY higher...just sounds a little overfire-ish to me...


----------



## brenndatomu

Turd Ferguson said:


> FC has advised that we need to be hitting 600F+ on the front of the door


I wonder if its possible they mean peak burn temp after you reload (door closed, blower running) Still seems high for an external temp...but would make more sense to me than getting it that hot with the door open...


----------



## JRHAWK9

FWIW, before I installed the heat reclamation ducts on the front of mine when I could access that area with my infrared gun, I'd see 800°+ on the front face right above the door shortly after a re-load when running it hard.  This is right where most of the gasification/blue fire ball happens on the Kuuma though.  Internal firebox temps were right around the 1400° area, according to the TC mV reading being sent to the computer.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Prior to the SS liner install, my draft would keep around 0.08. Now it bounces between 0.02 - 1.04, depending on if the door is opened, draft blower, blower, flue temp. 

So.... when exactly should I measure the draft? Lots of videos on where to test and how to read, but none address when to actually measure.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## brenndatomu

Where and how are you checking it now?
You want to find out the draft pulling on the firebox itself...so you need to be as close to it as you can...if you have any dampers on the pipe you need to be between it and the furnace...and not right next to any elbows or anything.
Draft will always change depending on if the intake damper/draft blower is operating or any firebox/ash pan door is open. With a draft blower I bet your draft will vary more than with a "naturally aspirated" unit (as the draft blower kicks on/off)


----------



## maple1

Mrpelletburner said:


> Prior to the SS liner install, my draft would keep around 0.08. Now it bounces between 0.02 - 1.04, depending on if the door is opened, draft blower, blower, flue temp.
> 
> So.... when exactly should I measure the draft? Lots of videos on where to test and how to read, but none address when to actually measure.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Should be measured when you're burning. With door closed of course. Blower (the HVAC one) should not impact draft - seems to me if it does there are other things going on. If you have draft that varies that much, sounds like you need a barometric damper. (I didn't read the whole thread, but assuming you don't have one?). Its purpose is to help maintain a steady draft, and limit over drafts. Example, from wind gusts. Did you post a pic of your manometer setup?


----------



## Mrpelletburner

maple1 said:


> assuming you don't have one?


Correct, I don't have one installed



maple1 said:


> Did you post a pic of your manometer setup?


Attached


----------



## maple1

Sure looks like a place for a baro damper to me.


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## Mrpelletburner

This might be a dumb question, please don't hammer me for asking. 

Assuming a reading of 0.04 is less of a draft pull then 1.04? Or does a 1.04 mean the chimney is trying to pull a draft, however there is not enough incoming air to allow the air flow? Basically creating a vacuum of pressure?


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Assuming a reading of 0.04 is less of a draft pull then 1.04?


Yes, this ^ ^ ^
The -0.13" you have there is sky high IMO...most run -0.04 to -0.06" I think somebody maybe said these units can go as high as -0.08"? You are headed toward double that...


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Talked to the support folks over at FC (HY-C support is top notch). As I like to take the suggestions from this thread and make sure I am not voiding any warranty. 

First, I have the green light to install a barometric damper. Second they asked if I could make a very slight adjustment to the draft blower. The adjustment allows more air into the fire box. Anyone's stove experiencing similar issues (flashbacks) should contact HY-C. As their support can walk you through the same process without voiding your warranty. HY-C did mention the next model up has a auto damper that controls air intake (wish I would've known that ;P ).

So far (1 night), the stove has not had a "flashback" (stove box or flue).


Just my 0.02$... purchasing the Nest HD camera and related 5 day subscription service has been so helpful with monitoring the stove. I can quickly review when I loaded the stove, any "flashbacks" or just seeing when the stove needs to be reloaded.


----------



## JRHAWK9

-


Mrpelletburner said:


> Just my 0.02$... purchasing the Nest HD camera and related 5 day subscription service has been so helpful with monitoring the stove. I can quickly review when I loaded the stove, any "flashbacks" or just seeing when the stove needs to be reloaded.
> 
> View attachment 223880



I use a Foscam R2 to monitor various temps as well as furnace remotely while I'm at work.  It's a bit cheaper.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Loaded at 7:20am "flashback" at 9:11 and 9:24

https://video.nest.com/clip/2824c21115654c40936f1c4c3fb8bc68.mp4

https://video.nest.com/clip/2824c21115654c40936f1c4c3fb8bc68.mp4


----------



## Turd Ferguson

Mrpelletburner said:


> Loaded at 7:20am "flashback" at 9:11 and 9:24
> 
> https://video.nest.com/clip/2824c21115654c40936f1c4c3fb8bc68.mp4
> 
> https://video.nest.com/clip/2824c21115654c40936f1c4c3fb8bc68.mp4


They need to fly a rep out to address your situation. I’d be furious.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

House now smells like smoke... I hate!


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Here is another one... loaded at 8:30 last night and at 11:37 cloud of smoke.


----------



## maple1

Do you know what your draft reading is when this stuff is happening?


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## Mrpelletburner

Wish I did.. need to mount the manometer so I can capture the readings. Measurement I took 15mins after, no draft blower, was 0.08 wc

Why do you ask?


----------



## maple1

Mrpelletburner said:


> Wish I did.. need to mount the manometer so I can capture the readings. Measurement I took 15mins after, no draft blower, was 0.08 wc
> 
> Why do you ask?



Well, seems like you have a wildly varying draft. So knowing what it is when this happens might shed light. This might be happening at a lull. 

My thinking is that this unit needs to have a firm (steady) baseline draft. But the intake restriction (riveted thingie) is limiting that. And something else is causing the wide variations - like varying burn conditions, or winds at the top, or something. It's only a hunch but I think you need more intake air (the riveted thingie is too restrictive), and a baro to even the draft.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> House now smells like smoke... I hate!


I hate that too!
Only time I have experienced this somewhat regularly was after I modded my Yukon furnace to burn cleaner...which worked, but, it was prone to backpuffs then...when I couldn't sort it out, I quit using it to burn wood. Not putting up with that!
It generally did it if I let the fire get too big after loading, then tried to cut the air back too fast. (which "too fast" was actually still pretty slow)
I'm thinking like Maple1, the fluctuating draft and fluctuating intake air (combustion blower turning on/off) is just too much...once that fire gets starved for air...its just a matter of time 'til POOF!


----------



## Mrpelletburner

So the barometer draft arrived today. Should it be installed to the back of the stove or at the top of the flue?


----------



## JRHAWK9

I would install it in the straight section of stove pipe.  Make sure the BD itself is level in both the horizontal and vertical direction.  The tee can be placed in the stove pipe the way it's positioned, but the BD itself has to be leveled out.

I spy a silver BD damper behind your stove pipe........?


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> So the barometer draft arrived today. Should it be installed to the back of the stove or at the top of the flue?
> 
> View attachment 223927
> 
> 
> View attachment 223928


It didn't come with install directions? http://www.fieldcontrols.com/filebin/pdfs/Instruction_Manuals/01575700_TypeRC_Rev_B_04-15.pdf
The 1st page shows where to, and where not to put it.
I don't see why you couldn't put it in the middle there somewhere. The only thing with putting it on a slope like that is the baro door itself has to be dead nuts plumb and level. Just loosen the clamp and spin the baro to level once you get the tee mounted. (make sure the opening where the baro goes is perfectly vertical)
To level it perfectly, cut two small 3" long blocks (they hafta be EXACTLY the same length...you can run 'em both through a table saw together) (or you could cheat and use a couple Dominos blocks) then hold the blocks on the tips of the pivot pin ("axle") of the baro door, both at the same time, then you can put a level on the blocks...this part goes _much_ easier with a second person to help.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

JRHAWK9 said:


> I spy a silver BD damper behind your stove pipe........?



oil burner



brenndatomu said:


> It didn't come with install directions



Not the link you posted... thanks!

This is the instructions in the package
https://www.northlineexpress.com/media/pdf/5co-32120-installation.pdf


----------



## DoubleB

Mrpelletburner said:


> oil burner



I think Jr Hawk is saying that the way the baro damper is mounted for the oil burner is the same idea to mount the baro damper for the wood furnace.

Also, I admit I missed some details in prior pages, but if you want to test with more intake air without voiding the warranty, can you loosen the handle on the loading door enough so it still latches safely but lets in a bit of air?  Don't know if it will help (or cause more problems), but I love free and easy experiments.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

3 flashbacks in a row. Stove had hit the 700+ degree mark, draft blower turned off, stove cooled down to ~600 degrees, draft blower kicks back in resulting to the following 3 flashbacks. This time I was able to capture the draft measurements. You will notice that exactly the point of the flashback, the reading goes to 0.








This is what the fire box looked like.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> 3 flashbacks in a row. Stove had hit the 700+ degree mark, draft blower turned off, stove cooled down to ~600 degrees, draft blower kicks back in resulting to the following 3 flashbacks. This time I was able to capture the draft measurements. You will notice that exactly the point of the flashback, the reading goes to 0.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is what the fire box looked like.
> 
> View attachment 223941



The draft reading actually goes from "suction" to "pressure" for a split second.
That's what the firebox looked like after...but was likely no flames (or very little) in there for a time before the poof...


----------



## maple1

I don't know what the fix should be, but it seems that the fire is shutting down too fast, when it is really rolling the off gassing.

Ever kill the engine when going downhill on something that has a manual choke, then stab the choke? Instant backfire. From the dump of fresh fuel hitting the hot combustion chamber & exhaust, and igniting even without spark. Likely happens more in the exhaust section or manifold.

Did you ever get a draft spec from them? Looks a bit high on the manometer just before the poof - so high draft might be pulling unburnt gasses to a hot spot where they poof when not supposed to, as they should otherwise have already been burned. But didn't get burned due to an intake being overly restricted. There might be multiple things going on here, and I don't think the bubble gum rivet thing is helping any. This could be getting into design deficiency territory.


----------



## laynes69

Draft doesn't sound like the issue, it has to be lack of air (oxygen). From the looks of it the firebox was hot. When enough air builds up and the smoke ignites, poof. I would open the draft blower more, but that's me.


----------



## Medic21

maple1 said:


> I don't know what the fix should be, but it seems that the fire is shutting down too fast, when it is really rolling the off gassing.
> 
> Ever kill the engine when going downhill on something that has a manual choke, then stab the choke? Instant backfire. From the dump of fresh fuel hitting the hot combustion chamber & exhaust, and igniting even without spark. Likely happens more in the exhaust section or manifold.
> 
> Did you ever get a draft spec from them? Looks a bit high on the manometer just before the poof - so high draft might be pulling unburnt gasses to a hot spot where they poof when not supposed to, as they should otherwise have already been burned. But didn't get burned due to an intake being overly restricted. There might be multiple things going on here, and I don't think the bubble gum rivet thing is helping any. This could be getting into design deficiency territory.



I'll say it a third time within this thread.  Bigger splits when loading full.  Get one layer at a time burning and charred good before adding another.  If the inducer shuts down and the firebox goes black and smokey turn the heat up.  I have had my house at 76 and warmer to get it to a point that the puffing stops.  You need a flame to continue to burn in this furnace.  Doing this I have not had a puff from this furnace for over a month.  

I have my slide, only one rivit in it, taped under 3/8".  You cannot, as designed, operate this like a non certified stove and damper it down for a slow burn.  It has to have almost no off gassing of the wood when the inducer shuts down.  


Not Good



Ready to close up:


----------



## Mrpelletburner

From the manual (http://hy-c.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Owners-Manual-FC1000.pdf)



> The draft blower has a slide cover located on the side of the motor that is factory preset, with an opening of approximately 3/8”. The cover should be fully closed only when there is a power failure and electricity is lost.





What is not spelled out is, how/where are they measuring 3/8"? I can tell you a 3/8" OD socket does not fit into the largest air opening.



> In order to create the most effective draft, the chimney size should not exceed 12 inches, with a maximum .08 water column inches of draft. The flue draft can be measured with the use of a draft gage or manometer. If there is more than .08 water column inches of draft, it can be adjusted with the installation of a flue damper




I am going to contact support again today. Has to be other owners, not on this forum, with the same issues. Stove does throw out some heat, however the flashbacks are getting to be a pain.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Medic21 said:


> If the inducer shuts down and the firebox goes black and smokey turn the heat up.



I have noticed that the stove will fire great for the first 2+ hours, then nosedive where the firebox goes black and smokey. This happens after I have gone to bed. There is 2 ways I have been able to track night flashbacks... 1) The camp fire smell in the air 2) Reviewing the night video feed 



Medic21 said:


> I have my slide, only one rivet in it, taped under 3/8".



Believe mine slide is the same now for an opening.

When I refilled mine yesterday (photo posted) the first layer was really hot ash. The 3 splits you see on the top, were charred really good before I had shut the fuel door. I have noticed that when each layer is nice and charred, the firebox heats up FAST.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Friday night was a really long night dealing with stove back flash issues. Cannot stress the level of frustration.

Friday afternoon I changed the setup of the stove pipe, installing a biometric damper (see attached image). Spoke to the folks at HY-C and they suggested to install the bio damper off the back of the stove,set the draft to .06 to .08. They also suggested to open the draft blower slide opening to 3/8" using a drill bit to measure. So once the stove was up and running with a nice steady fire, I had set the draft to .06-.07. I am not 100% sure what the issue is, however after the 2-3 hour mark, the stove starts to back flash (see previous posted videos).





The following clip is from Friday night, with 3 splits loaded, illustrating continuous back flashes from the biometric damper a little over 2 hours after starting the stove. The temperature had already reached it's highest point of 700+ degrees. 




Fast forward to tonight... Tonight I started the stove with some newspaper and small splits. Once the initial fire was up, I added 1 larger split and let that burn for ~20mins. I then loaded 2 more larger splits (trying to follow @Medic21 suggestions).

1st split



Next 2 splits (load door still opened)



before closing the door




It now has been 1hour after closing the door. Draft blower is still going, temperature gauge is reading ~600 and rising, draft is 0.06 and the stack temperature is 175degrees (wish this was a bit higher). Will report back tomorrow if I had any issues. Refer to my last photo for how much wood is currently in the stove.

I wonder if this model stove had enough testing in different environments before going to market.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> I wonder if this model stove had enough testing in different environments before going to market.


I would say most certainly not!
They are using y'all for the R & D.
One thing I thought of a while back and forgot to mention...I wonder if it is possible something is partially plugging one of the air passages? I recall reading of someone a few years back that had a new wood stove acting badly...don't remember what the details of the problem were...but it was a really long drawn out headache for the guy...everybody chimed in to try and help...IIRC, he was about ready to rip it out when he ended up finding some packing material of some sort in an air passage...secondary air I think. It was fine after that. This is probably not the case here since multiple people are having issues...but still worth investigating IMO...


----------



## laynes69

Where does the secondary air come in from? It seems like they are trying to design something based on an airtight design. There's no way the unit should be doing that, especially when it's that hot. When the draft blower shuts off, it seems like the firebox goes into starvation mode. That's where the secondary if hot enough, should have enough air to maintain a flame. I don't know how the unit is designed, but the secondary air rack is less than ideal looking. At this point I'd be pissed to say the least!


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Believe I was reading that persons website blog page yesterday. Person had a Harman wood stove and the issue was solved by his dishwasher tech. The stove had a section of the stove (rear) that the manual did not mention to clean out. Once he had cleaned it out, the stove ran without issues.

So before firing up my stove yesterday , I traced all air inlets including the chamber above the stove. Nothing was blocked.

Last nights burn, with just the small load, did not have any problems (back flashes). The draft blower did run the whole time and heat output died out around 1:30 am.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

laynes69 said:


> Where does the secondary air come in from?



Will post a video later today.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> The draft blower did run the whole time


That is the key...If the draft blower never shut off, there would be no issue. Once it shuts off, the large fire it has created starves for air...chokes itself out...then after a bit of time it gets enough air to re-ignite and WOOOF!
But...I wonder why the secondary air can't sustain the fire on it own? Is that adjustable?


----------



## Medic21

laynes69 said:


> Where does the secondary air come in from?



Pulls it through the draft blower.  I'm thinking about adding another set of tubes to mine to add a way to naturally draft it.


----------



## JRHAWK9

This may have been mentioned already, but can you crack open a basement window near the wood furnace?  Maybe you need makeup air....?


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> I would say most certainly not!
> They are using y'all for the R & D



Sounds like another manufacturer I know...cough, cough, SBI....cough, cough Tundra.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Hope this video helps...  At 1:12 mark in the video, see the large gap between the front of the stove and the air channel. Wonder if that gap should of been welded up? Also on the opposite side of where the air enters, there is a channel that doesn't have holes or seem to pull air from anywhere. Will have to talk to HY-C regarding this vertical channel (36 second marker shows the vertical tube).


----------



## Mrpelletburner

JRHAWK9 said:


> This may have been mentioned already, but can you crack open a basement window near the wood furnace?  Maybe you need makeup air....?



Basement window near the stove is cracked opened anytime we have used the stove. Not sure if it has made a difference regarding the fire. It does help clear out the smoke in the basement when the stove back flashes.


----------



## 3fordasho

Mrpelletburner said:


> Hope this video helps...  At 1:12 mark in the video, see the large gap between the front of the stove and the air channel. Wonder if that gap should of been welded up? Also on the opposite side of where the air enters, there is a channel that doesn't have holes or seem to pull air from anywhere. Will have to talk to HY-C regarding this vertical channel (36 second marker shows the vertical tube).



Does all primary and secondary air come through that little opening on the draft blower?


----------



## laynes69

3fordasho said:


> Does all primary and secondary air come through that little opening on the draft blower?


I'm with you, if that's the case......that's nothing. For sure that will cause puffing issues.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

3fordasho said:


> Does all primary and secondary air come through that little opening on the draft blower?



From my understanding.... yes.


----------



## 3fordasho

Mrpelletburner said:


> From my understanding.... yes.



Well if that is the only inlet air opening... don't think it's near enough.   The Tundra has at least 2 openings for what I assume is secondary air that are wide open all the time.  Then there is the primary flap that is controlled by the damper motor, even that has an always open port. Then there is the air boost port right below the door glass, maybe 1/4" diameter.  

If that riveted cover on your blower is truly the only air inlet, I don't see how your furnace would work with the induction blower off.


----------



## laynes69

Our furnace has a 3/4" hole when the primary is closed, and that's not enough (I keep it cracked open a little). We also have two 1.5" square holes for the secondary air and two 1/4" pilot holes. There's also 3 holes when the damper is open that are around 1" x 2" or so. That's for a firebox that is smaller than the firecheif, even with all that air, burns still lasting 8-12 hours. It doesn't seem hy-c thought out the design process. Like I've said before there's too much variable in the field.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

laynes69 said:


> Our furnace has a 3/4" hole when the primary is closed, and that's not enough (I keep it cracked open a little). We also have two 1.5" square holes for the secondary air and two 1/4" pilot holes. There's also 3 holes when the damper is open that are around 1" x 2" or so. That's for a firebox that is smaller than the firecheif, even with all that air, burns still lasting 8-12 hours. It doesn't seem hy-c thought out the design process. Like I've said before there's too much variable in the field.



hy-c support stated the reason why the draft opening is so small is so the stove doesn't overheat. They were having an issue with people opening up the slider, walking away, only to return to a cracked stove.

I really hope my purchase is "beta" testing for them.

So far today the stove has had only 1 back flash via the draft fan inlet port and that was only because I closed the draft flapper to much. Otherwise the stove draft has been at a steady 0.05-0.07" wc all day, 500-700 degrees.


----------



## laynes69

That stinks! If that's the case about overfiring, they should've eliminated the forced draft and went with a simple servo controlled natural draft design. Like many old school designs, the fire would basically smolder until heat was needed and a draft blower would kick up the fire then go back to a smolder. That's not the case with an EPA design. If a firebox cannot maintain an active flame during the offgassing phase, then the unit is not doing it's job. It's really a bummer because Hy-c was one of the manufacturers with a different design than the others. It is nice however to see feedback from actual users whether good or bad. I hope the company makes things good with you.


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> Sounds like another manufacturer I know...cough, cough, SBI....cough, cough Tundra.


Hey! Mr "stock" Kuuma... 
At least the Tundras _worked good_ from the get-go...just had some longevity issues and couple of others minor bugs to work through...
[COLOR=#000000]But[/COLOR] @Mrpelletburner  has been WAAAAAY more patient than I would be with a new unit if I was having extreme backfire issues like this! I Hate a smoky smelling house!


----------



## brenndatomu

Medic21 said:


> Pulls it through the draft blower.  I'm thinking about adding another set of tubes to mine to add a way to naturally draft it.


If that's the case then that's a terrible design! Primary and secondary air need to be from separate sources IMO. Otherwise whats to maintain the 75/25 (or whatever it is) split ratio once the T-stat is satisfied? As is, it can just go the path of least resistance...


----------



## Mrpelletburner

brenndatomu said:


> @Mrpelletburner  has been WAAAAAY more patient than I would be with a new unit if I was having extreme backfire issues like this!



LOL My new favorite channel to watch is "My Stove". It's like watching paint dry, however I need to make sure the house doesn't fill up with smoke.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Wonder if that gap should of been welded up?


Well, if not welded up, at least not gapping wide open like that.
The way it is now I can see why there are issues...when the draft blower shuts off there is no way it is getting anywhere near enough secondary air to the middle and back of the firebox...that low volume of air just pulls right in through those holes on the lower right side of the door...and maybe a little out that gap up top there (if there is even enough volume left to make it up there at that point) Too bad there is no door glass so you could see exactly whats going on in there...that would solve the mystery right quick IMO.
Like @3fordasho  and @laynes69  have already mentioned...the Tundra/Heatmax and Caddys all have (2) 1.5" square openings feeding the secondary air tubes...and those have nothing to do with the primary air intake


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> Hey! Mr "stock" Kuuma...



  

stock??  what fun is that?    I don't even own a string trimmer which is stock.  

I haven't touched how the furnace burns and/or controls it's burn though, just optimized how the BTU's are being delivered for my situation.  Something which every wood furnace owner should probably do in order to maximize the delivery of the BTU's being produced.  Oh, and maybe pushing the envelope a bit on removing as much heat from the flue gasses as possible by choking things up in the HX to take advantage of my excessive draft and very well insulated chase/chimney.      



brenndatomu said:


> @Mrpelletburner  has been WAAAAAY more patient than I would be with a new unit if I was having extreme backfire issues like this!



yeah, I agree, I think I would have told them to come pick their POS up long time ago myself.  Although, I probably would have done the same thing with the Tundra after the first crack appeared or if I got one of the original "consumer beta test models" they used for "real world R&D" in which the ashpan setup potentially could have turned the owner's house into their very own personal CO bank.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Hope this video helps...  At 1:12 mark in the video, see the large gap between the front of the stove and the air channel. Wonder if that gap should of been welded up? Also on the opposite side of where the air enters, there is a channel that doesn't have holes or seem to pull air from anywhere. Will have to talk to HY-C regarding this vertical channel (36 second marker shows the vertical tube).



At about 25 seconds in, the weld in the inside corner of the intake air tube (upper right corner of the loading door) is that weld cracked loose from the front of the firebox? Almost looks like that may be part of why there is that gap up top there...


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Good catch! Going to let the fire burn out to check. That whole run should be either a solid tube or welded IMO.


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> yeah, I agree, I think I would have told them to come pick their POS up long time ago myself. Although, I probably would have done the same thing with the Tundra after the first crack appeared or if I got one of the original "consumer beta test models" they used for "real world R&D" in which the ashpan setup potentially could have turned the owner's house into their very own personal CO bank.


I bought mine 2-3 years old...and "pre-cracked", for cheap...it was to be more of an experiment/trial than anything else...so I knew what I was getting myself into...the original owner did not, although SBI did take good care of him...and because of that he bought a Max Caddy (and loves it)
Things were a little sketchy there for a while early on with my Tundra, but she's dialed in like a well oiled (but cracked) machine now.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> That whole run should be either a solid tube or welded IMO


They might not weld it solid for expansion/contraction reasons...ask SBI about that one! (I wonder how many Tundras they had to warranty before they figured it out?!)


----------



## laynes69

I also noticed your thermometer is where an air channel is located on the inside. If you're reading 500 degrees, the actual firebox would be much hotter. I would think the temperature wouldn't be accurate because of the incoming air. Honestly, I wouldn't think there's much preheating going on there.


----------



## maple1

maple1 said:


> This could be getting into design deficiency territory.





Have you sent the manufacturer a link to this thread?


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> I bought mine 2-3 years old...and "pre-cracked", for cheap...it was to be more of an experiment/trial than anything else...so I knew what I was getting myself into..



well, ya know, you may be able to buy a certain member's Fire Chief soon here for cheap to play around with.  You'd also know what you'd be getting into.


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> well, ya know, you may be able to buy a certain member's Fire Chief soon here for cheap to play around with.  You'd also know what you'd be getting into.


Think ima pass on this one...


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> Think ima pass on this one...



Look at the up side, it could double as a whole home smoker!


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> Look at the up side, it could double as a whole home smoker!


Well, guess that'd be alright if your house looked like this!


----------



## Mrpelletburner

So the top rail (not welded section) that looks like it supplies air to the secondary air tube is just there for support, air does not flow across the tube. The attached photo shows the secondary air tube is welded into the front horizontal tube (front of stove)


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Weld is good!


----------



## DoubleB

I'd still try to loosen the door latch a lot to see how much air that could let in to make up the deficit.  If that solves your problem, it's not a fix, but a big clue for the problem and other viable solutions.

I also notice that your furnace sure looks clean (it's shiny), and it doesn't look like you had to wipe it down.  If so, I'd also think about how you could have such a clean firebox at the same time that thing is just puffing smoke.  

Anyone else have thoughts on those?


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Loaded for the night






Secondary burn in action


Now the waiting game


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Just wanted to include a quick clip of the smoke passing the bio damper


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Just wanted to include a quick clip of the smoke passing the bio damper



WoW! That's* really* smoky...
Is that during cold start up?
Door open (or recently closed?)
Combustion blower off?


----------



## Mrpelletburner

This is right after the video of the secondary burn video. Doors closed, draft blower going, stove ~550 degrees.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

This is 2hours after the last load. Talk about a wake up!


----------



## brenndatomu

Man I have _no_ idea how they got that through EPA testing!? 
My old Wondercoal (think campfire in a steel box) ran cleaner than that on green Oak! 

Like I said before...personally I think its a mistake getting that fire huge and roaring...my 2 cents, from someone who has never owned or run this model. Even so, making a huge fire and then slamming the door often causes issues on about any stove...let alone one that has to be restricted to "breathing through a straw" to keep from overheating...don't take my comments personally, I'm picking on FC/Shelter (HY-C) here


----------



## brenndatomu

Has anybody tried running a load without the draft blower on at all?
Might hafta lower the baro draft setting, and open the draft blower door up more...


----------



## Mrpelletburner

I haven’t, but can try tomorrow.

Right now, without the draft blower on and the stove running at full speed ahead, my draft meter reads 0.07. 

So when you say “lower” the bark draft, are you suggesting to 0.04?

From what I have learned is that the baro meter measures negative pressure or a vacuum. The closer to “0”, the less draft from the stove. Therefore if I was to adjust lower, the less intake air is pulled into the stove when the blower is off. 

Does this sound correct?


----------



## maple1

There should be no smoke going past your baro like that - that is all unburned fuel. This thing is looking worse & worse as the post count rises, I'm not sure it could ever be made to work 'right'.

So - have you sent them a link to this thread? The EPA might be interested in your smoke shots.


----------



## laynes69

With the deep coal bed and ash, are there any passages that are plugged? At the 2 hour mark, that thing should be crusing. Showing secondaries with the door open doesn't show much, it's when the door is closed how it will act. I bet if you opened up that blower flap mid way into the burn, that smoke would have cleared up. It looks like you may have to operate it manually without the blower like suggested, bummer.


----------



## maple1

Mrpelletburner said:


> I haven’t, but can try tomorrow.
> 
> Right now, without the draft blower on and the stove running at full speed ahead, my draft meter reads 0.07.
> 
> So when you say “lower” the bark draft, are you suggesting to 0.04?
> 
> From what I have learned is that the baro meter measures negative pressure or a vacuum. The closer to “0”, the less draft from the stove. Therefore if I was to adjust lower, the less intake air is pulled into the stove when the blower is off.
> 
> Does this sound correct?



Yes that is correct - maybe more due to the fact that your intake is restricted by a riveted thingie.

ETA: Seriously, if it was me it would be way past time to start playing hardball with these guys. Sure looks to me like they have built a lemon with design flaws. Their riveted thingie band aid fix for supposed overfires is sign number 1. It also looks like there is a big imbalance between primary & secondary air supplies - primary is generating more stuff than the secondary can handle. So - I would knuckle down with them & start getting to a mindset that you may have to get rid of it & swallow some losses.


----------



## Medic21

Was this right after the inducer kicked on?   I'll get 2-3 min of smoke until it heats up again.  We are having two different experiences with this stove for some reason.  

The only difference in my install is I used double wall in the basement going into the triple wall.  My basement is hellish cold.  40-45 degrees and I had a huge creosote problem in the stove pipe on the last stove.  

Yes I have loaded this thing full, opened the slide all the way and let it burn over night with the thermostat off and it did good at 35 degrees out.


----------



## maple1

OK, one more from me then I don't think I have anything else to offer - are you sure your wood is dry?

Might have already been addressed and I missed it.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> So when you say “lower” the bark draft, are you suggesting to 0.04?
> 
> From what I have learned is that the baro meter measures negative pressure or a vacuum. The closer to “0”, the less draft from the stove. Therefore if I was to adjust lower, the less intake air is pulled into the stove when the blower is off.
> 
> Does this sound correct?


-0.04" would be a start...hafta play with it, see what works. And yes, the lower the number (closer to zero) the less "pull" on the stove. Thats why I said you would probably have to open the blower damper up some to run like this.
Just to be clear, the stove has no effect on draft...the chimney makes the draft...it is the engine that drives the stove. Thats why its so important to have the chimney set up proper and the draft under control (baro)


----------



## Mrpelletburner

maple1 said:


> OK, one more from me then I don't think I have anything else to offer - are you sure your wood is dry?
> 
> Might have already been addressed and I missed it.



very dry


----------



## Mrpelletburner

brenndatomu said:


> -0.04" would be a start...hafta play with it, see what works. And yes, the lower the number (closer to zero) the less "pull" on the stove. Thats why I said you would probably have to open the blower damper up some to run like this.



Will try adjusting



laynes69 said:


> With the deep coal bed and ash, are there any passages that are plugged?



Passages are clear


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Besides the excessive amount of smoke flowing past the biometric damper, it has now been 2 days without "back draft" from either the draft opening or rear of the stove. 

Also, filled the stove last night around 10:30 and the stove's blower was still kicking on/off at 7am this morning. House was a nice 71 degrees.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

A bit off topic, but wanted to share. We have a couple of those fancy Ecobee's installed, one mounted next to our stove thermostat. I use the fancy system report to track the heat output of the stove. Wife says it is a bit geekish, but I like to know what is going on.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Well things were going good... Last loaded around 7am, stove had been running fine until this point 12:27ish. The draft blower had just turned off ~20mins prior. After the 2 back flashes, the stove continued to burn fine. I simply don't understand why back pressure builds up as there is a clear path to the top chamber and then out the rear of the stove.



When opening the load door, this is what the fire looked like.





Draft blower slider is opened more than 3/8". In the photo I am resting a ¼" drill bit on a fin as I am trying to get consistent measurements for opening the draft blower flap. Yes this is the only air inlet for this stove.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> I simply don't understand why back pressure builds up as there is a clear path to the top chamber and then out the rear of the stove.


Its not back pressure you are dealing with.._*.the fire is starving for air*_...and I can see why, that 3/8 gap is a TINY little hole for that size fire box to be breathing through! When the blower turns off, the fire now only gets air by what the chimney draft can pull through the intake...so it starves for air, the fire goes out, (the active flame) but the wood is still "burning" (smoldering) so the firebox fills with smoke (fuel) eventually the air/fuel mixture gets to the correct ratio to burn (explode) and there is already plenty of heat in there to ignite it so...BOOM!

Re-read this post from earlier...I think it applies here. https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...pa-stoves-feedback.167418/page-4#post-2250948


----------



## Mrpelletburner

brenndatomu said:


> When the blower turns off, the fire now only gets air by what the chimney draft can pull through the intake...



If I open up the slider to allow more air, is the bio damper set to low at -0.04"?


This is almost as bad as regearing my jeep... change 1 setting and your back to square one.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> If I open up the slider to allow more air, is the bio damper set to low at -0.04"?
> 
> 
> This is almost as bad as regearing my jeep... change 1 setting and your back to square one.


Nope, that's just where I would start with it. Set the baro any higher and the fire could maybe end up getting too hot...you'll need to experiment with it to see how things behave...


----------



## brenndatomu

Set your gap to 1/2"...see how it does with that...even that still seems like a pretty minimal intake hole to me.

Just spitballin here...I wonder if forcing the air to go more to the secondary tube would help...I'd plug the top 5 holes in the air intake...the ones on the right side of the door. Could probably shove a short 3/8" to 1/2" bolt in the holes just to block the majority of the air.
That may be enough to change the ratio a bit...more to the top, where it needs to be to maintain secondary combustion after the blower shuts off...all those holes and slots on the right there seem like too much primary air to me.
And with how restrictive the gap is on the blower, that doesn't leave much volume, so those primary holes are just the path of least resistance, nothing left to make it up top...


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> We have a couple of those fancy Ecobee's installed, one mounted next to our stove thermostat. I use the fancy system report to track the heat output of the stove. Wife says it is a bit geekish, but I like to know what is going on.


Meh...she just don't know whats cool


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Discovered more about the primary and secondary air path


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Discovered more about the primary and secondary air path
> 
> View attachment 224329
> View attachment 224330


There ya go, learn your machine! 
That's what seems strange to me...that both primary and secondary air share one air intake...don't know as I've seen that done before...and why I suggested to try plugging the round primary holes...in my unprofessional opinion, way to much primary air...and can't adjust primary/secondary air separately.
The Tundra has a 1.5" x 1.5" secondary air intake, that is a lot bigger hole than what you have with a 3/8" crescent shaped intake.
And Tundra has 2 of those intakes!...and a 3/4" hole for primary pilot air...and when the damper opens up, there is whole ton more primary air holes that are exposed!


----------



## brenndatomu

BTW, I noticed your new sig line...good one


----------



## Mrpelletburner

This stove just blew the biometric damper off across the room... video to follow


----------



## Mrpelletburner

That is it... CANNOT take anymore!! If I would of went to be before this happened, might not be here tomorrow!


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> This stove just blew the biometric damper off across the room... video to follow
> View attachment 224343
> View attachment 224344


Holy crap!


Mrpelletburner said:


> That is it... CANNOT take anymore!! If I would of went to be before this happened, might not be here tomorrow!



Like @maple1  has been saying for a while now...I'd be playing *hardball* with those ya-hoos at HY-C...these things (or at least this one) are a menace to society...wouldn't be too hard to get one of those shark type lawyers to take a case like this...especially with the documentation you have


----------



## maple1

Still haven't seen an answer to 'have you sent them a link to this thread?'.

With all your videos, you shouldn't have much problem to get them to do what you want - I would be pounding them for at least a full refund. Plus any other expenses incurred. IMO they should be recalling these things. If they don't refund, time to lawyer up - tell them you'll give them a chance to make this right before you have to resort to that. And send them this thread.

Failed Design 101.

(That baro cannon vid is pretty darned impressive. For the wrong reasons, but still impressive.  )


----------



## Mrpelletburner

maple1 said:


> Still haven't seen an answer to 'have you sent them a link to this thread?'.



Yes. Yesterday I contacted them again and was able to get an email address to I could send links of my YouTube channel, highlighting the latest videos and this tread.

I am not sure how many stoves they have sold, but I am sure anyone in the market might change their mind after reading this thread.


----------



## 3fordasho

Mrpelletburner said:


> Yes. Yesterday I contacted them again and was able to get an email address to I could send links of my YouTube channel, highlighting the latest videos and this tread.
> 
> I am not sure how many stoves they have sold, but I am sure anyone in the market might change their mind after reading this thread.




Don't know how many have been sold, but there is more exposure through Menards and Mills Fleet Farm (and others) than there was for the Tundra.  Both these outfits stock this unit be it the Fire Chief or Shelter version.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Mrpelletburner said:


> I am sure anyone in the market might change their mind after reading this thread.




might?!!?  

....and for anybody at Hy-C who may be reading this thread.  Maybe you guys should stick to making juice flavored drinks.  Seriously, "Made in the US" is supposed to be synonymous with quality.  What you guys have released to the buying public is wrong and flat out dangerous.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

I am going to say that the person I have chatted with at HY-C has been amazing, believe that is the only reason why I continue. We know it is a primary air supply issue. Also, the rear of the stove is only about 6" away from the concrete wall, which is drawing cooler air into the stove and cooling it down faster. So I am going to add a fresh air supply to the draft blower (easy enough to install). Also thinking of rotating the stove counter clockwise 90 degrees; hope to pull in warmer air.


----------



## maple1

That all sounds like more tail chasing kind of stuff to me. The wall or cooler/warmer intake air should have no impact on anything. A fresh air supply will make it even cooler. Hogwash, I say. 

Also I likely would not call it a primary air issue. I would say both primary & secondary have problems. With roots in the design.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Last night, wanted to top off the stove for the night. Stove already reached max temperature and temperature was slowly dropping.

Question for folks that own other stoves. If you open the door at the wrong dime during the burn cycle, will the following happen to you?


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> If you open the door at the wrong dime during the burn cycle, will the following happen to you?


Most definitely a possibility...better than a 50/50 chance IMO. And with the issues you've been having with that unit...you have a much higher chance than that I'd say.


----------



## Turd Ferguson

I've been a little dormant thus far, mostly due to other irons in the fire (pun intended). Anyways, I spoke with Ted at Hy-C a few days ago and he mentioned that, so long as I was careful, to remove the rivet and report back with my findings. Note that this is not carte blanche for anyone to drill out their rivets; I only did this after seeking approval from them and of course it would void anyone's warranty without first receiving authorization from them to do so.

So far, I'm still very much in the data collection process. I don't necessarily want to render an opinion one way or another without collecting further data and thinking about it in the grand scheme. So far, it's been a real challenge, but nowhere near what @Mrpelletburner has been experiencing.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Mrpelletburner said:


> Question for folks that own other stoves. If you open the door at the wrong dime during the burn cycle, will the following happen to you?




I've NEVER had anything like that mini explosion happen!    IMO, that's again, a result of fuel being backed up and when you added O2 it abruptly ignited when it reached the correct mixture.  

I've opened the door numerous times over the years and on occasion I've had the flame ball exit the door opening a bit, but never a mini-explosion like you had there.  

Man, I wouldn't want my face anywhere near there when that happens!  I sometimes get real close to the opening and then I quickly open the door in order to catch a glimpse of the nice blue fireball inside.  Definitely wouldn't want to be doing that with your furnace!


----------



## woodey

Mrpelletburner said:


> Last night, wanted to top off the stove for the night. Stove already reached max temperature and temperature was slowly dropping.
> 
> Question for folks that own other stoves. If you open the door at the wrong dime during the burn cycle, will the following happen to you?



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I also had this happening to me  with my old furnace. At first I blamed it on draft issues with the chimney- which I thought odd as the chimney is a 40 ft.  masonry block with 7x11 liner and  is a warm chimney as it exits thru center of house and thru peak of roof, strong draft. Every time I opened the door to clean out the ashes or put wood on  I ran a fan  from the basement to garage  to get rid of some  smoke.(And would have to  open the door slowly or put my foot in front of it for fear of losing my eyebrows) Took a while to realize that the problem was not the chimney it was a design issue with the stove. The  damper on this unit for primary air  was either fully open or completely shut.(sound familiar)          The  damper on my new furnace has two  1/2 "  holes allowing primary air in  even when the damper is closed. Now there is no " wrong time"   during the burn cycle  to open the door, fully loaded or at the  end of the  burn. I have never had a problem with any smoke exiting this furnace. Sounds like we have had similar issues which kinda confirms to me what other members (with a heck of a lot more knowledge  than I have)    have been saying about  your stove starving for air. Hang in there and best of luck to you!


----------



## Mrpelletburner

More back flashing today during the burn cycle.

Loaded the stove at 7:45am today, stove was running great until this point. Started to back flash several times between 9:22am to 9:30am. After the back flashing, the temperature started to rise again. 

- Draft blow was running the whole time.
- Stove already reached max burn temperature and was falling, believe this happened when the stove was at it's lowest temperature point ~550 on the front surface.
- Inner flue temperature read ~200 degrees  

Now the house smells like smoke again and I have another headache from the smoke. Doors opened to get air into the house, fun never ends.



Loaded the stove at 7:45am today, stove was running great until this point.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

One really neat feature of the Nest camera system is being able to create a time lapse video. This video is from 7:40am today till about 10:50am. Around the 1:04 marker is when the stove started to flash back several times. This will give everyone a good idea of the temperature rising and falling during the burn cycle.


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## Wood1Dennis

Just a thought about this stove.....
I am really surprised to find an EPA certified stove that includes a forced combustion air intake. I thought that was kind of contrary to the concept of a clean burning efficient stove. With mine, once it is up to temp, that doesn't take long, the idea is to throttle back the primary intake so the stove gets a lot (most?) of its combustion air through the secondary's. That secondary air is heated by taking a long path around the firebox so it is hot by the time it gets into the firebox. I can see them kick them off and get it burning efficiently. To me it seems contrary to this understanding to force combustion air in with a fan. Do you think that forcing air in, if the stove is not pulling it in might be causing the back drafts?


----------



## maple1

I don't think an EPA furnace with forced draft is out of the ordinary. The problem is that it needs to be properly controlled thru the burn, and directed to primary/secondary efficiently - which is where this unit seems to be severely deficient. 

Fundamental design flaws.


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## brenndatomu

Heres my take on the issue with this unit...
The single intake for primary and secondary air...and that little tiny 3/8 opening they want set on the draft blower.
When the blower is on it may be pushing 10 CFM through the firebox (under "pressure") so that may be plenty of air volume to be spread around to all the various primary and secondary holes.
When the blower is off the chimney is now responsible for all the incoming air (negative pressure being drawn on the firebox)
So IMO the total volume of air is gonna drop way down from what was being forced through there by the draft blower. And here is the issue...the volume is now so low that the air can just take the path of least resistance...which again, IMO, will be those rather large primary air holes (that is also the shortest path for the air too) so once the blower shuts off, we are still feeding the fire primary air, but very little, if any, air is getting to the secondary air tube...so now we have a smoky primary air fueled fire (smoky because we just turned the volume of air way down when the blower suddenly shut off) and no secondary air to burn off the smoke/wood gas...eventually the fire totally smolders out, wood gas/smoke builds up...time goes by and the air/fuel ratio eventually falls into the range of "BOOM"...and well, here we are.
Hope this post made sense to y'all...


----------



## laynes69

brenndatomu said:


> Heres my take on the issue with this unit...
> The single intake for primary and secondary air...and that little tiny 3/8 opening they want set on the draft blower.
> When the blower is on it may be pushing 10 CFM through the firebox (under "pressure") so that may be plenty of air volume to be spread around to all the various primary and secondary holes.
> When the blower is off the chimney is now responsible for all the incoming air (negative pressure being drawn on the firebox)
> So IMO the total volume of air is gonna drop way down from what was being forced through there by the draft blower. And here is the issue...the volume is now so low that the air can just take the path of least resistance...which again, IMO, will be those rather large primary air holes (that is also the shortest path for the air too) so once the blower shuts off, we are still feeding the fire primary air, but very little, if any, air is getting to the secondary air tube...so now we have a smoky primary air fueled fire (smoky because we just turned the volume of air way down when the blower suddenly shut off) and no secondary air to burn off the smoke/wood gas...eventually the fire totally smolders out, wood gas/smoke builds up...time goes by and the air/fuel ratio eventually falls into the range of "BOOM"...and well, here we are.


Damn you lol, I was replying in the other thread about the shared primary/secondary air and you said everything I wanted to. It's funny on the caddy, I can have a beautiful clean fire and as soon as i block the secondary openings, it's a mess. It's impossible to have a shared channel and direct the right amount of primary and secondary air where needed. It really is a balance, and that's why there's multiple channels on the caddy, tundra, Kuuma etc.


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## Mrpelletburner

brenndatomu said:


> so once the blower shuts off, we are still feeding the fire primary air, but very little, if any, air is getting to the secondary air tube...so now we have a smoky primary air fueled fire (smoky because we just turned the volume of air way down when the blower suddenly shut off) and no secondary air to burn off the smoke/wood gas...eventually the fire totally smolders out, wood gas/smoke builds up...time goes by and the air/fuel ratio eventually falls into the range of "BOOM"...and well, here we are.
> Hope this post made sense to y'all...



It does.. however the "boom" happens when the draft blower is running. Which then has you think about the flue temp and draft, which appears to be "in spec".


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## Mrpelletburner

laynes69 said:


> Damn you lol, I was replying in the other thread about the shared primary/secondary air and you said everything I wanted to. It's funny on the caddy, I can have a beautiful clean fire and as soon as i block the secondary openings, it's a mess. It's impossible to have a shared channel and direct the right amount of primary and secondary air where needed. It really is a balance, and that's why there's multiple channels on the caddy, tundra, Kuuma etc.



Any chance you Can post a photo or point me to a good photo of the primary and secondary air on the caddy?


----------



## laynes69

Mrpelletburner said:


> Any chance you Can post a photo or point me to a good photo of the primary and secondary air on the caddy?



Sure, these photos are from the furnace when it was new. It's a rebadged caddy, so don't be confused by the name lol. The primary flap is above the loading door with a 3/4" hole. When it opens, there's 3 openings under it approximately 1x2" or so (primary). On the left and right side below the door,  there's two 1.5 x 1.5 inch openings for the secondary air. Below the loading door in the center is an opening with a 1/4" pilot hole inside and a 1/4" hole in the rear of the firebox. Our firebox is 3.5 cu.ft, and even with all the air, we get 8-12 hour burns without any problems. I've calculated before, and I think there's around 2.5 to 3 square inches of incoming air.


----------



## brenndatomu

laynes69 said:


> I've calculated before, and I think there's around 2.5 to 3 square inches of incoming air.


My calculations show ~5 sq inches of intake when the damper is closed...~11sq inches total when the damper is open...although I doubt much air is being drawn through all those tiny holes in the 3 secondary tubes when the damper is open...path of least resistance and all.
That is a TON more air than they are allowing into the FC firebox! Even if the blower flapper was wide open on the FC, Caddy has probably double the air intake area...with a smaller firebox!
Not to steal your thunder @laynes69 , but just wanted to further clarify something for @Mrpelletburner...those air intake openings shown in your picture there.
There are two 1.5" x 1.5" holes right at the lower outside corners of the black area on the furnace front. (secondary air)
Then there is that 3/4" round hole a few inches above the glass door...right in the center. (primary "pilot" air)
When that flapper door opens up, the 3/4" round hole is taken out of the picture, and (3) 1" x 2" slots are uncovered. (primary air)
If you look at the back of the firebox, see the metal tube that goes halfway up the middle? There is a 1/4" round hole there too (secondary air)
There is also another 1/4 hole right below the loading door, in the center. (another primary "pilot" air) It blows right on the hot coals...works great for firing off a new load of wood!
I know all this only because the Tundra firebox is almost identical to the Caddys.


----------



## brenndatomu

laynes69 said:


> Damn you lol, I was replying in the other thread about the shared primary/secondary air and you said everything I wanted to


Sorry, had I known you were preparing a reply, I would have left you roll wit it...would have probably been better explained and less long winded!


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> It does.. however the "boom" happens when the draft blower is running.


Really?! That is just crazy!


----------



## laynes69

brenndatomu said:


> My calculations show ~5 sq inches of intake when the damper is closed...~11sq inches total when the damper is open...although I doubt much air is being drawn through all those tiny holes in the 3 secondary tubes...path of least resistance and all.
> That is a TON more air than they are allowing into the FC firebox! Even if the blower flapper was wide open on the FC, Caddy has probably double the air intake area...with a smaller firebox!
> Not to steal your thunder @laynes69 , but just wanted to further clarify something for @Mrpelletburner...those air intake openings shown in your picture there.
> The are two 1.5" x 1.5" holes right at the lower outside corners of the black area on the furnace front. (secondary air)
> Then there is that 3/4" round hole a few inches above the glass door...right in the center. (primary "pilot" air)
> When that flapper door opens up, the 3/4" round hole is taken out of the picture, and (3) 1" x 2" slots are uncovered. (primary air)
> If you look at the back of the firebox, see the metal tube that goes halfway up the middle? There is a 1/4" round hole there too (secondary air)
> There is also another 1/4 hole right below the loading door, in the center. (another primary "pilot" air) It blows right on the hot coals...works great for firing off a new load of wood!
> I know all this only because the Tundra firebox is almost identical to the Caddys.


Lol, I tried going off my memory (which sucks obviously)! I've calculated it quite a few times. Either way it's a metric ton more than the firecheif.


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## Medic21

brenndatomu said:


> Really?! That is just crazy!



Not really, same principle in firefighting.  Blower kicks on and introduces air into a super heated environment.  If you want to control a structure fire you limit air with controlling doors and other openings.  When you have heat and fuel all your missing from the tetrahedron is oxygen.  Get the right mix and boom.  We only open that door back up when we are ready to flow water.  Flowing water high into the room cools the atmosphere taking the heat when it get oxygen. That is without putting a drop of water on the actual fire.  I'm using the video of opening the door in a power point on backdraft lol. 

Personally I would never light the furnace again until I found out what made it explode with enough force to remove the baro.  The firefighter in me thinks that's a structure fire waiting to happen, what if it blows the tee or elbow off next time?


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## brenndatomu

Medic21 said:


> Not really, same principle in firefighting. Blower kicks on and introduces air into a super heated environment. If you want to control a structure fire you limit air with controlling doors and other openings. When you have heat and fuel all your missing from the tetrahedron is oxygen.


Right, but my impression was that the blower was running for a long time before the boom...if it happens soon after the blower kicks on, that totally makes sense...but not after extended blower run time...


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## Mrpelletburner

Looking back at the posted clips and the blower has been running for all but one or two.


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## Medic21

brenndatomu said:


> Right, but my impression was that the blower was running for a long time before the boom...if it happens soon after the blower kicks on, that totally makes sense...but not after extended blower run time...



True, it's odd that there would be enough off gassing going on that long into a burn to create that kind of atmosphere.  Off gassing usually stops and the end of the growth/free burn stage, hence the decay stage at that point.  I don't recall what kind of wood but, it wasn't any kind of high resin wood or anything he said he was using.  Still makes me think fuel issues as much as air.  I have never have that violent of a "puff".  The other issue would be high levels of CO.  It is as explosive as natural gas.  As much smoke as I see while it is burning maybe he needs to quit looking at the firebox temp and go off stack temps more I have seen a dull red for a brief period so I know I'm pushing 900-1000 degrees around the left side and top of the door occasionally.  I thought at the high I was seeing 600 in the stack.  In fact, after adding the auber, I was spiking to 800-900 while firing a new load but, not long enough for the probe to reach those temps or damage anything. Incomplete burning creats CO and I have a hard time thinking wood smoke would be a rich enough fuel to puff that violently, literally explode but CO will. 

The gentleman I spoke with tonight was very professional and I am going to send pictures to him when I get a chance to not be in the shop. I still think, and I'm no expert in anyway, that a way to add air between calls for heat would solve this problem.  I only experience it now when I keep the house cooler than 72.  Above that no issues at all.  I think that has to do with long burn times and more complete burning.  Problem is I am useing quite a bit more wood than I want to when I keep it that warm.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Man found this video regarding back flash


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## Mrpelletburner

Fire box after a 1.5 months after burning. Also shows area above the fire box.


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## Medic21

Mrpelletburner said:


> Fire box after a 1.5 months after burning. Also shows area above the fire box.




I will say from that video you are not burning hot enough.  Do not be a slave to a thermometer.  I have zero Stage 1 creosote in the fire box and only stage 1 in the entire flue.  I see stage 2 in the firebox and up by the flue.


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## Mrpelletburner

Medic21 said:


> Do not be a slave to a thermometer.



Not following...  Thought the stove has been burning hot, sounds like not hot enough.


----------



## Medic21

Mrpelletburner said:


> Not following...  Thought the stove has been burning hot, sounds like not hot enough.



Creosote only builds with incomplete combustion.  You will always have some, the goal is the soot like stage one.  What temps are your flue pipe getting to?


----------



## Medic21

Two months worth on the flue pipe just past the outlet of the stove.


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## maple1

Medic21 said:


> I will say from that video you are not burning hot enough.  Do not be a slave to a thermometer.  I have zero Stage 1 creosote in the fire box and only stage 1 in the entire flue.  I see stage 2 in the firebox and up by the flue.



It could also be that something about his unit is not allowing it to burn properly. I'm not going to re-read but also thought he was going by what he was being instructed to do by the service guy, re. temps and all. I'm still thinking that it is burning too much in primary and not enough in secondary.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Medic21 said:


> Two months worth on the flue pipe just past the outlet of the stove.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 224468
> View attachment 224469



Yea.. mine is like a poster child for creosote build up.

Having been loading the stove at the end of the burn cycle. When starting the stove, ash door opened to get the fire going, would say the flue pipe reaches 400-500 degrees, same when the stove hits max burn. However when the stove is just trucking along, would say 175-250 degrees.

As I recall you have a double wall flue pipe?


----------



## Medic21

Mrpelletburner said:


> As I recall you have a double wall flue pipe?



Yes, that is probably the only difference in install now that you have a liner.  I have half the natural draft you have.  I'm still thinking I get the firebox hotter than you are and that is the biggest difference.  I will still get an occasional puff but that is with strong wind out of the east or south and warmer temps outside.  

I see zero smoke outside of the initial firing and for a min or two when the inducer turns on. Even when loading there is very little smoke.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

The only time I don't see smoke is when the temperature on the front of the stove is above 650. Stove only stays at or above that temperature for 20min at a time.


----------



## Medic21

Mrpelletburner said:


> The only time I don't see smoke is when the temperature on the front of the stove is above 650. Stove only stays at or above that temperature for 20min at a time.



Mine holds at 800-850 with infrared Snap On thermometer measured at the edge of the door opening and on top during the first hour.  Flue on probe is 500-600 during that period.   If it gets a little red I close off the air a tad bit.  I never asked what kind of temps I should see I just run it where it is still safe.  My puffing  stopped for the most part when I did that.

I'll take a video of when I fire it and when I load it for you.  Shoot me an email address ina message.  I'm on shift for 24 today and will be home tomorrow.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> would say the flue pipe reaches 400-500 degrees, same when the stove hits max burn. However when the stove is just trucking along, would say 175-250 degrees.


Anything under 250 or so is gonna cause buildup...unless it is at the end of the fire when everything is burning out. 
But even with higher temps, if the fire is as smoky as was in the video you had the other day with holding the baro door open...you are gonna have creosote buildup.
But I really think the low flue temps and the smoke go hand in hand...the fire is choked out and then smolders away...makes tons of smoke and low flue temps...until the next BOOM.


----------



## brenndatomu

Medic21 said:


> If it gets a little red I close off the air a tad bit


That's it right there...you opened up the air...fire not being starved.
How far open is your damper usually?


----------



## brenndatomu

Hey @Mrpelletburner , do you have any really large splits? I wonder how it would do with large wood instead of what you have been burning...I know for me, when I was running a furnace that was susceptible to these back puffs, loading small wood on hot coals was a pretty reliable recipe for more backpuffs.


----------



## Medic21

brenndatomu said:


> Anything under 250 or so is gonna cause buildup...unless it is at the end of the fire when everything is burning out.
> But even with higher temps, if the fire is as smoky as was in the video you had the other day with holding the baro door open...you are gonna have creosote buildup.
> But I really think the low flue temps and the smoke go hand in hand...the fire is choked out and then smolders away...makes tons of smoke and low flue temps...until the next BOOM.



100% 

I think the difference in operation between us is I let it heat up the house a lot longer so when it's cycling the inducer the fuel is burnt down to that coal stage.  I then load when the temp drops a couple degrees in the house.  It sucks on days like today because if I want to have a fire I have to open windows or I will be 80 degrees in the house.  The best days are near zero or below.  It runs constantly and I load every 4-6 hours and it's 75 in the house.

I have had some luck as suggested here building a smaller fire a couple times of day and burning them hot till nothing but coals are left then repeating when it cools down.

Also, I do think it was you that suggested adjusting the on and off temps for the circulation blower lower and that has helped tremendously in extending the time it produces heat.  On at 140 and off at 90.  Thermal limit has stayed at 200 and as hot as I have gotten it never kicked it out.


----------



## Medic21

brenndatomu said:


> That's it right there...you opened up the air...fire not being starved.
> How far open is your damper usually?



1/4-3/8


----------



## Mrpelletburner

brenndatomu said:


> Hey @Mrpelletburner , do you have any really large splits? I wonder how it would do with large wood instead of what you have been burning...I know for me, when I was running a furnace that was susceptible to these back puffs, loading small wood on hot coals was a pretty reliable recipe for more backpuffs.



Yes.. the couple times I tried to burn really large splits they just wouldn't produce the same heat output. Would be an unburned split when reloading.

The only time I have split to use smaller splits is when starting cold.


----------



## Medic21

The only times I have ever gotten a puff is with the blower off.


----------



## Medic21

@Mrpelletburner when I first fire or load I get a continuous 30-45 min of the circulation blower running then it's on every couple min for a couple min after that for a couple hours.  Then increases the time in between running for a couple hours. 

How long and how often is yours running.


----------



## brenndatomu

Medic21 said:


> 1/4-3/8


Really?! That just blows my mind...


----------



## brenndatomu

Medic21 said:


> I think the difference in operation between us is I let it heat up the house a lot longer so when it's cycling the inducer the fuel is burnt down to that coal stage. I then load when the temp drops a couple degrees in the house.


There was a rep from SBI that used to be on here...I remember him saying that one thing people need to get used to with wood heat is not being able to control it to +/- .5 degrees like with fossil fueled furnaces...gotta let the heat cycle cycle. Let the house temp drop a few degrees and then you can let 'er rip. The only way to get "low and slow" is to go with a cat stove...


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Medic21 said:


> Also, I do think it was you that suggested adjusting the on and off temps for the circulation blower lower and that has helped tremendously in extending the time it produces heat.  On at 140 and off at 90.  Thermal limit has stayed at 200 and as hot as I have gotten it never kicked it out.



Believe this is why HY-C suggested I move my stove further away from the rear wall. The blower draws in cooler air from the concrete wall ~67 degrees which can prematurely cool down the air in the plenum, which cools down the stove faster. Therefore I was planing this weekend on rotating my stove 90degs so the stove draws open air.


----------



## Medic21

brenndatomu said:


> Really?! That just blows my mind...



When I fire or load I leave the door and ash door open for a good 20-30 min as long as the flue does not spike over 1000.  The inducer is running and I shut the doors.  I watch and see where the flue drops to, target is 500-600 for me.  The only time I adjust the door is if it's above 600 because I feel I'm wasting heat.  I make sure the temp is set at about 75 or 76.  When it finally shuts off I drop the thermostat to 74 and go reload at 71 in the house. The inducer cycles for 60-90 min with calls for heat then runs continuously for a few hours before I repeat.  I would prefer just loading and walking away like my old one. 

If I try to keep the house cooler it will sit and smolder and puff. I'm more dictated by the firebox conditions than the house temp.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Believe this is why HY-C suggested I move my stove further away from the rear wall. The blower draws in cooler air from the concrete wall ~67 degrees which can prematurely cool down the air in the plenum, which cools down the stove faster. Therefore I was planing this weekend on rotating my stove 90degs so the stove draws open air.


After you get your new temp monitor and can closely track the flue temp, you will find that the house circ blower kicking on/off has only a little affect on the flue temp, and almost zero on firebox temp.


----------



## Medic21

Mrpelletburner said:


> Believe this is why HY-C suggested I move my stove further away from the rear wall. The blower draws in cooler air from the concrete wall ~67 degrees which can prematurely cool down the air in the plenum, which cools down the stove faster. Therefore I was planing this weekend on rotating my stove 90degs so the stove draws open air.



That is exactly how mine is.  In fact on cold days I'm pulling 50 degree air into it.  My basement this morning was 50 degrees.  Since I didn't burn last night.  House was 72 just from the solar heating yesterday afternoon.


----------



## brenndatomu

Has is ever back-farted when the flue temp was high @Mrpelletburner ? Like say over 400*...


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Medic21 said:


> When I fire or load I leave the door and ash door open for a good 20-30 min as long as the flue does not spike over 1000.  The inducer is running and I shut the doors.  I watch and see where the flue drops to, target is 500-600 for me.  The only time I adjust the door is if it's above 600 because I feel I'm wasting heat.



Same as how I load the stove



Medic21 said:


> I make sure the temp is set at about 75 or 76.



Have mine set at 73, draft blower, if off kicks in at 74.



Medic21 said:


> I would prefer just loading and walking away like my old one.



What was your old stove? Would you still go back?


----------



## Mrpelletburner

brenndatomu said:


> Has is ever back-farted when the flue temp was high @Mrpelletburner ? Like say over 400*...



Nope... stove surface temp is always around 500, flue temp either 200 or below.


----------



## Medic21

> What was your old stove? Would you still go back?



Juca wood furnace.

Hell no, I have used 1/3 the amount of wood of a much colder winter this year.  I had to load that thing 4 times between coming home from work and the next morning.  It was the most inefficient thing I have ever used.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Therefore I was planing this weekend on rotating my stove 90degs so the stove draws open air.


Another advantage to doing this will be getting rid of one of those 90* elbows...90s never help things work better when you have a problem stove...may not be causing the problem, but sure don't help anything...most MFGs will tell you to use only 45s when at all possible. When you are moving things...would it be possible to eliminate both 90s? Even if you have to use (2) 45s to replace one 90, that is still preferable. (if its done correctly)


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Should be able to


----------



## Mrpelletburner

New duct in place. Would be out of ideas if this doesn’t work.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> New duct in place. Would be out of ideas if this doesn’t work.
> 
> View attachment 224546


Crossing my fingers and toes for ya here!
On another note...I was at the Local Menards (again ) Friday evening and they had the Shelter version of this unit on display...I took the opportunity to stick my head in the thing and have a gander...man these things are sooooo simple! I mean I kinda already had that feeling from all @Mrpelletburner s pics/vids and info...but I'm here to tell you, they really are that simple! There is VERY little there that distinguishes these from the previous models...pretty much just 1 secondary air tube.
I can't believe they got 'em to pass the 2017 EPA regs! Apparently this test isn't really that difficult to pass!


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Well all hooked up and burning! Besides the new configuration I added 4 thermocouples to measure flue temps, inside the fire box, plenum and intake air at the filter.

T1 flue
T2 plenum
T3 air at filter
T4 fire box


----------



## Mrpelletburner

And the smoke from the chimney.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> And the smoke from the chimney.



Kinda hard to tell from that close up shot...is that just steam or smoke there?

HY-C should be putting you on their payroll...I think you've done more R n D, and with more sophisticated instruments than they did!


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Loaded at 3:30am, at 5:30am the stove finally kicked in... (actually had to crack the door open for a minute to feed it some air). However after that minute... stove took off like a rocket.

T1 Flue
T4 inside top left corner of the fire box


----------



## maple1

That's way hot for my comfort level.

Not sure I'm grasping what the 2 hour gap is either. Did it smoulder for 2 hours before it really took off?


----------



## Mrpelletburner

maple1 said:


> Not sure I'm grasping what the 2 hour gap is either. Did it smoulder for 2 hours before it really took off?



Yup... happened to wake up around 5:15am, remember I loaded at 3:30, and the fire box was only 250degs. Opened the load door for about 1 min and 15mins later the stove just took off like a rocket.


----------



## maple1

That's not right. Erratic operation - another item for the list. Sounds again like a secondary deficiency. 

I don't think I could sleep at night after seeing that glowing metal....


----------



## Medic21

maple1 said:


> That's not right. Erratic operation - another item for the list. Sounds again like a secondary deficiency.
> 
> I don't think I could sleep at night after seeing that glowing metal....



I get that in mine occasionally.  Not something I'm too concerned with and it doesn't last very long.


----------



## laynes69

That's crazy! That would be it for me. It takes no time to fatigue metal cycling heat like that. If an outage occurred and the furnace didn't have a fan to cool it, I would worry about a house fire. I've never seen a woodfurnace glow like that! Nope, I would demand my money back.


----------



## maple1

There is no way I would keep burning this thing. Looking again I think I see over 300° in your plenum? I'm not a furnace guy, but I think that is well into house fire danger territory. Laynes is right - if your blower stops, what will happen to all that heat? Seems out of control before it even gets to that.


----------



## Boilers

Mrpelletburner said:


> Yup... happened to wake up around 5:15am, remember I loaded at 3:30, and the fire box was only 250degs. Opened the load door for about 1 min and 15mins later the stove just took off like a rocket.



Was the thermostat calling for heat but the furnace not putting any out?

Why wouldnt you just rely on the fan to turn on and blow in some fresh oxygen to get the fire going instead of opening the door?


----------



## brenndatomu

maple1 said:


> There is no way I would keep burning this thing. Looking again I think I see over 300° in your plenum? I'm not a furnace guy, but I think that is well into house fire danger territory.


X1000! 
317* is CRAAAAZY high plenum temps! I get nervous if I ever see over 200*...wood (house framing) has been proven to spontaneously combust under 200* (after years of pyrolysis, but still, it can/does happen)
DO NOT KEEP BURNING THIS PILE OF SCRAP! YOU ARE WELL INTO FIRE HAZARD TERRITORY HERE! (caps for emphasis...not yelling)
And having to open the door to "get it to take off"...yet more proof it is being starved for air...but then after it takes off, crazy high temps...this equals *uncontrollable and unsafe!*
They are lucky you have this thing and not me...I am normally pretty laid back, but after all this, I'd be loading this thing in my truck and personally delivering it back to St Louis, or wherever they are made...and not to save them the shipping cost either... 
My 2 cents...


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Moved the plenum thermocouple, as it was sitting to close to the area above the fire box (not sure what you would call this area). Located it to where the Honeywell high limit switch temp prob is. So far the temperature appears to be much cooler and not so scary.



Boilers said:


> Was the thermostat calling for heat but the furnace not putting any out?



Yes, thermostat was at 68 degrees and was set for 74 degrees. Was not enough heat from the fire box to kick on the blower. The only thing I can think of is I did not let the load char enough before closing the load door.



Boilers said:


> Why wouldn't you just rely on the fan to turn on and blow in some fresh oxygen to get the fire going instead of opening the door?



Draft blower was working the whole time, just was not supplying enough fresh air IMO. Opening the door was like instant fire.

I think what they need to do is extend the upside down "L" channel and make it an upside down "U". The draft blower supplied just the draft for the draft blower and the other side supplies the secondary burn air. 

So far today, with the stove loaded, properly chared, the stove has been running at 800 degrees, flue temps of ~350-400 and no orange glow.


----------



## maple1

This 'charring' phase should also not be required IMO. I have a boiler, not a furnace - but I can reload full on some coals and be gassing (secondary burning ) as soon as I close the door & bypass. It is pretty well instant - actually usually as soon as I get the wood in, before I get a chance to close it back up. As far as I know most furnaces are that way also, more or less - maybe not instant but I don't think requiring a babysitting charring phase. I also get secondary burning going very quick after a cold start doing nothing special - usually 5 minutes or less after lighting the fire, I close the bypass and away it goes. It starts out kind of slow, but is a very well controlled build up. Without any controls - just well designed air intake & routing, and natural draft.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Draft blower was working the whole time, just was not supplying enough fresh air IMO. Opening the door was like instant fire.


Exactly...not enough air. So this was another one of those situations where sooner or later there would have been a big POOF...and away she goes. But you intervened before that happened...I'm surprised you didn't get a big POOF when you opened the door.


Mrpelletburner said:


> Yes, thermostat was at 68 degrees and was set for 74 degrees. Was not enough heat from the fire box to kick on the blower


Surprised that wasn't hot enough to kick the fan on...what temp does that usually happen at?


Mrpelletburner said:


> Moved the plenum thermocouple, as it was sitting to close to the area above the fire box (not sure what you would call this area). Located it to where the Honeywell high limit switch temp prob is. So far the temperature appears to be much cooler and not so scary.


I'd call it the heat exchanger (HE or HX) for lack of a better term.
That's good that moving it dropped the temp...if those were the for real plenum air temps...that's just NUTS!


Mrpelletburner said:


> I think what they need to do is extend the upside down "L" channel and make it an upside down "U". The draft blower supplied just the draft for the draft blower and the other side supplies the secondary burn air.


Yes, 100% completely agree, the secondary air needs to be on its own (natural draft) source...draft blower for primary air only.
Ever suggested this to them?
Talked to anybody at FC/HY-C today, or lately?
EDIT: Thinking a bit more about this...I think somebody brought up earlier about never seeing an EPA firebox with a draft blower before...and I was thinking about how the secondary air source needs to be separate...I wonder if they are both from the same source because if they weren't, the draft blower could possibly (under the right circumstances) "pressurize" the firebox and blow smoke (CO) out the secondary intake if it was natural draft?


----------



## Mrpelletburner

And I thought I was done with the back flashing.

Loaded some small splits (fire starter splits) at 8:13pm and at 8:46pm had several back puffing. Flue temps were between 200-300 degrees, draft 0.08” W.C.

Yes I really pained the wall black so I could better see the smoke


----------



## brenndatomu

Dang it all!


----------



## Boilers

Mrpelletburner said:


> Yes, thermostat was at 68 degrees and was set for 74 degrees. Was not enough heat from the fire box to kick on the blower. The only thing I can think of is I did not let the load char enough before closing the load door.
> 
> Draft blower was working the whole time, just was not supplying enough fresh air IMO. Opening the door was like instant fire.
> 
> I think what they need to do is extend the upside down "L" channel and make it an upside down "U". The draft blower supplied just the draft for the draft blower and the other side supplies the secondary burn air.
> 
> So far today, with the stove loaded, properly chared, the stove has been running at 800 degrees, flue temps of ~350-400 and no orange glow.



this may seem like a dumb question, but is your draft blower working properly? Air passages clear? Motor wired correctly and spinning the right direction? Can you pull the motor/fan off the furnace and run it to verify that its pushing air? Maybe hotwire the it and with the stove off, verify that air is coming out of both the primary and secondary passages...

Something definitely seems off with the air delivery. with the draft blower running, the fire wont build up, but open the door for a minute and the fire takes off...


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Not a dumb question at all. I did double check and you can feel the air being pushed out of the draft blower and into the stove.

Something that I have found and doesn't follow the manual is to pull the hot coals towards the front right side of the stove (air inlet) and reload towards the back of the stove. This allows the draft blower to supply air directly to the hot coals, allowing the stove to recover faster.

I believe the manual incorrect and written for the older non EPA version of the stove. As the manual states to "spread embers evenly over the grate". The problem is the ash grate is small and in the middle of the fire box, where the older non EPA version had a grate front to back with the draft blower supplying air front to back.

Perhaps they should redesign the draft blower supply to air under the hot coals or across the front lip of the stove, rather than just the right side.


Something else I have noticed is the rear of the stove always builds up cold coals, which IMO is wasted potential heat.


----------



## Turd Ferguson

Mrpelletburner said:


> Not a dumb question at all. I did double check and you can feel the air being pushed out of the draft blower and into the stove.
> 
> Something that I have found and doesn't follow the manual is to pull the hot coals towards the front right side of the stove (air inlet) and reload towards the back of the stove. This allows the draft blower to supply air directly to the hot coals, allowing the stove to recover faster.
> 
> I believe the manual incorrect and written for the older non EPA version of the stove. As the manual states to "spread embers evenly over the grate". The problem is the ash grate is small and in the middle of the fire box, where the older non EPA version had a grate front to back with the draft blower supplying air front to back.
> 
> Perhaps they should redesign the draft blower supply to air under the hot coals or across the front lip of the stove, rather than just the right side.
> 
> 
> Something else I have noticed is the rear of the stove always builds up cold coals, which IMO is wasted potential heat.


I am going to try this in mine tonight (raking to the front) and follow up with my results.


----------



## maple1

Boilers said:


> Something definitely seems off with the air delivery. with the draft blower running, the fire wont build up, but open the door for a minute and the fire takes off...



I think it's more like, with the draft blower running it doesn't put enough secondary air where it needs to go so it is burning dirty and incompletely. Then with a fresh dose of air from the door opening the dirties that should have been burning off but instead were partly building up (what wasn't going up the stove pipe) took off.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> I believe the manual incorrect and written for the older non EPA version of the stove. As the manual states to "spread embers evenly over the grate".


I agree, that sounds wrong.


Mrpelletburner said:


> Perhaps they should redesign the draft blower supply to air under the hot coals or across the front lip of the stove, rather than just the right side.


No EPA fireboxes have "air under fire". They won't pass the emissions test due to the air coming up through the coals/ash causes more fly ash to end up in the flue gasses...


----------



## Medic21

It won't let me post the two minute video.  

I just lit mine again and with it burning good I shut it up and the fire died off till I opened the door again. This was with the blower slide opened all the way and enough heat to cycle the fan.  This is the problem and I know a couple guys from HY-C are looking at this thread.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Load it to YouTube?


----------



## Medic21

Mrpelletburner said:


> Load it to YouTube?



I'm not as smart as you kids.  I use computers to chart EMS runs, make power points, and look up porn.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

LOL.... I use my iPhone to send videos to YouTube and my Nest camera has a YouTube upload feature.


----------



## Turd Ferguson

Medic21 said:


> It won't let me post the two minute video.
> 
> I just lit mine again and with it burning good I shut it up and the fire died off till I opened the door again. This was with the blower slide opened all the way and enough heat to cycle the fan.  This is the problem and I know a couple guys from HY-C are looking at this thread.


I'm having the same exact identical issue with mine. Unfortunately I had to cover our fire station last night so I didn't get a chance to run it like I wanted to. I'll be able to do it today though.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

From all the 24/7 video captured for my setup, loading it typically takes a minimum of 40 minutes for the splits to produce heat, depending on how many splits were added and size of splits. Keeping the load door or clean out has not seemed to speed up this process as when you close the door the smoke from the burn puts the fire out.

From my understanding, with this stove, when loading, the primary air does not "ignite" the wood, rather causes it to become charred and smolder.  The amount of splits I have been adding all depends on the size of the bed of hot coals (this has been a learning process). 

For overnight loads, I load half the fire box, then 40 minutes later I fill to the top. Following this method, I have been able to keep the house at 72 till ~5:30 - 6 am (outside temps 15 - 25 degrees). At this time, the bed of coals is not enough to reload and keep the house above 70 degrees. So the house temperature tends to drop to 68 degrees and recovers back to 71 around 8 am.

I think our pain is the 40-60+ minute recovery time.

Of course the above is just speculation based on my case.


----------



## Turd Ferguson

Mrpelletburner said:


> From all the 24/7 video captured for my setup, loading it typically takes a minimum of 40 minutes for the splits to produce heat, depending on how many splits were added and size of splits. Keeping the load door or clean out has not seemed to speed up this process as when you close the door the smoke from the burn puts the fire out.
> 
> From my understanding, with this stove, when loading, the primary air does not "ignite" the wood, rather causes it to become charred and smolder.  The amount of splits I have been adding all depends on the size of the bed of hot coals (this has been a learning process).
> 
> For overnight loads, I load half the fire box, then 40 minutes later I fill to the top. Following this method, I have been able to keep the house at 72 till ~5:30 - 6 am (outside temps 15 - 25 degrees). At this time, the bed of coals is not enough to reload and keep the house above 70 degrees. So the house temperature tends to drop to 68 degrees and recovers back to 71 around 8 am.
> 
> I think our pain is the 40-60+ minute recovery time.
> 
> Of course the above is just speculation based on my case.


I have seen this exact behavior. When you reload, do you adjust the door at all? I have struggled to maintain firebox temperatures even doing one layer of splits at a time.

And I already know what the factory is going to say- "Your wood is too wet"


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Turd Ferguson said:


> I have seen this exact behavior. When you reload, do you adjust the door at all? I have struggled to maintain firebox temperatures even doing one layer of splits at a time.
> 
> And I already know what the factory is going to say- "Your wood is too wet"




The slider is opened between 3/8-1/2" and pinched with a clamp. I do not adjust the opening as I am trying to eliminate variables.

Since we are towards the end of the season, I have been bringing in wood as needed. Which means the wood is cold and, IMO,  burns best at room temperature. Therefore cold wood I split into smaller splits before loading, which seems to help. I also split ahead, so the wood has time to sit and reach room temperature faster. In your case, this would help dry out the wood faster.

Draft setting




Really nice seasoned wood... perhaps to dry




Just brought in from the outside and split. Notice the wood is a different color?




Using the cheap meter.. don't believe the reading


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Not sure if anyone is still following this thread, feels like binge-watching on Netflix ... please pass the popcorn.

However another back flash early today. Outside temperature is ~35F with an NNW 11 mph wind and pressure is 29.97 in.

The following video captured the back flash, at the 55sec marker


Flue temp was ~300F, draft blower running and no other fans running in the house, basement window and door to bulkhead closed. The back flash happened almost exactly 1 hour after loading a small load.

My theory is that the back-flash occurs right before the moment of "flashpoint" when the fire starts to take off.  For some reason, the smoke stalls around the exit of the heat exchanger, even with a draft, and ignites when fresh air is introduced.  I have ordered all new, perhaps better quality black stove pipe, including (2) 45deg adjustable elbows. I plan on running a camera through the SS liner.

Should also note that I had 2 small back flashes last night after loading, with the flue temp at 245F.

The following photos are of the stove at 8:37 am (before loading) and 8:39 am (stove loaded).

Video of fire box 5mins after the back flash


----------



## brenndatomu

This thread is starting to read a little like that old Bill Murray movie...Groundhog Day...


----------



## maple1

Since we haven't heard of any - assuming that  the company hasn't been any real help?

I would be cheesed.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Actually had a 1 hour call with two of their engineers the other day. Their team has viewed all videos posted to my YouTube account and the content of this long thread. 

One theory they have is my SS liner t-snout connection might not be correctly connected, allowing fresh air to come in contact with flue gasses. If you notice, all "puffs" with the new stove pipe configuration, happens at the elbow closest to the stove. Fresh air should not be traveling that far down a 25' stack. Currently, all the stove pipe I am using was purchased at Lowes (perhaps not the best quality product). The 90-degree adjustable elbows do not have the tightest seams, this is where the "puffs" exit. The crimped connections have a very thin amount of high temp RTV silicone.

So they asked if I could run a camera down the flue and in the t-snout area. Just going to use an old iPhone and facetime to the old phone, recording the screen.  I also dropped more $$ and ordered (2) adjustable 45 elbows and a telescoping straight section pipe.

Between the time troubleshooting, time away from the day job and parts, I could have paid for that fancy Kuuma or the Caddy. Also, wonder if it would have been better off purchasing that Royall 8095 wood/coal.


----------



## laynes69

Mrpelletburner said:


> One theory they have is my SS liner t-snout connection might not be correctly connected, allowing fresh air to come in contact with flue gasses.



yeah right! The chimney is pulling draft, which shows on the manometer. If air came down the chimney, you'd die of carbon monoxide. You see smoke come from the joints because they are not airtight. They just need to chalk it up, it's a badly designed unit and should be pulled from the market. That's what happens when a manufacturer is forced to put something in place without the proper research and development. Hell, you would've been better with a tractor supply special at this point. Every single video shows your manometer, so that proves air is not coming down the chimney. When it ignites, it causes pressure which drops the pressure on the manometer.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

I think... they were suggesting that the air around the SS liner? Perhaps from the cleanout area under the t-snout area? But you are right, the manometer shows a draft. However, they did say all you need is a little bit of air to come in contact with unburned gasses.

The wife still wants this stove gone

What myself and others would like, is to hear from ANYONE that has had success with this stove. I am assuming they have sold at least 100 to 200 of this model by this point.


----------



## laynes69

Mrpelletburner said:


> I think... they were suggesting that the air around the SS liner? Perhaps from the cleanout area under the t-snout area? But you are right, the manometer shows a draft. However, they did say all you need is a little bit of air to come in contact with unburned gasses.
> 
> The wife still wants this stove gone
> 
> What myself and others would like, is to hear from ANYONE that has had success with this stove. I am assuming they have sold at least 100 to 200 of this model by this point.



Unless your shooting flames or 1200 degree air up the chimney, it's not going to happen period!


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> What myself and others would like, is to hear from ANYONE that has had success with this stove. I am assuming they have sold at least 100 to 200 of this model by this point.


If they knew what was good for 'em they'd just recall these things now, it would be a pretty small recall at this point...peanuts compared to a wrongful death lawsuit...CO poisoning, (kids and old people are very susceptible) house fire, stuff that a good lawyer would make hay with...cost 'em more his/her first day on the case than it would to just buy 'em all back full price plus shipping, time/trouble. And IMO, they would owe you a boatload of money for your time/trouble, you have went way above and beyond...there is no way these things should have been released to the public without being vetted in R n D...which they obviously were not.
Where did you buy it? Will the retailer take it back?


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Purchased from Woodstovepro


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Also, wonder if it would have been better off purchasing that Royall 8095 wood/coal.


I don't think those are available to the states anymore...


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Local shop has a leftover, they were selling for ~1600


----------



## maple1

Mrpelletburner said:


> I think... they were suggesting that the air around the SS liner? Perhaps from the cleanout area under the t-snout area? But you are right, the manometer shows a draft. However, they did say all you need is a little bit of air to come in contact with unburned gasses.
> 
> The wife still wants this stove gone
> 
> What myself and others would like, is to hear from ANYONE that has had success with this stove. I am assuming they have sold at least 100 to 200 of this model by this point.



That is a severely out to lunch hokey theory on their part, and if they are really engineers I would question their credentials. Or their ethics.

What do they think a barometric damper does? That's right, it sends fresh air into the flue gasses. Millions of them are in place doing their job and I have never heard of this sort of thing happening before. If this thing was burning right, there would be NO unburned flue gasses in the stove pipe, or anywhere else, to ignite in the first place.

Sounds like they are looking everywhere except the furnace itself. If they don't change that, the future is very bleak for them - for all the reasons mentioned in post #308.


----------



## brenndatomu

maple1 said:


> What do they think a barometric damper does? That's right, it sends fresh air into the flue gasses. Millions of them are in place doing their job and I have never heard of this sort of thing happening before. If this thing was burning right, there would be NO unburned flue gasses in the stove pipe, or anywhere else, to ignite in the first place.


Very good point!


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Local shop has a leftover, they were selling for ~1600


Guess they don't know, or maybe don't care that they are not actually allowed to sell those after May 2017. 
Someone correct me if I'm wrong...I know the manufactures are not allowed to sell 'em after May 2017...but I thought that retailers were not allowed to sell their non-conforming inventory after that either...


----------



## Mrpelletburner

I did mention that and suggested they just give the unit to me for free! It didn't work... 

I thought the FC would be the better route based on the feedback of prior FC stoves and the new EPA stoves burn times.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> I did mention that and suggested they just give the unit to me for free! It didn't work...


Nice try!


----------



## Medic21

@Mrpelletburner Why are you splitting so small?  You have 9 splits taking up as much space as two and a half of mine.  Smaller splits are more prone to puffing.  

I was told by the company they have sold over 2000 of these and there are only a handful of us having any issues.  Mine has been going since Monday without a puff.  I just started burningbit hotter for longer.  Once it burns down to the point it's not really capable of puffing I leave it alone and reload when I can burn it hard for an hour.  My house goes as hot as 77 and is at about 71 6-7 hours later when I reload.  

I will admit after being around wood heat all my life this has been a rough one to get used to.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Medic21 said:


> @Mrpelletburner Why are you splitting so small?  You have 9 splits taking up as much space as two and a half of mine.  Smaller splits are more prone to puffing.



Trust me, not trying to burn small splits, however anytime I have added a larger split, the fire almost goes out from smoking itself out. 


The following is a photos are of my shed. The sizes of splits are what was delivered from the local fire wood supplier.









Medic21 said:


> I was told by the company they have sold over 2000 of these and there are only a handful of us having any issues.



Funny... they told me 1200, but didn't say how many are in use.



Medic21 said:


> started burning bit hotter for longer"?



Can you provide more details regarding hotter for longer? 

The load from last night started puffing at 6am in the morning and it is all you could smell.


----------



## BoiledOver

Is it possible that air is coming from your masonry chimney, such as a shared cleanout chamber? Somewhere in this Moby Dick thread I recall seeing a photo of at least two stacks coming out of the chimney top.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> The following is a photos are of my shed. The sizes of splits are what was delivered from the local fire wood supplier.


Nice wood shed!
Wow, those are small splits.

As far as split size goes...the way I found to load the Tundra that works well is to pull the hot coals forward, load large splits on the bottom, and some pretty small stuff on top. Then maybe a handful of "splitter shrapnel" on the coals right before I close the door.
Tundra having a window in the door really helps you learn what works and what doesn't since you can see the fire...and I have probably hundreds of hours in studying it.
Loading this way the fire takes off right away and really gets roaring right at the front since that's where all the primary air is rushing in with the damper open. Once my temp controller sees the flue temp it is after, the damper closes. The whole firebox appears to explode into flames at this point, after a minute or two things settle down and the secondary burn gets going good mainly at the top of the firebox...the primary fire at the front settles down to a small fire, which feeds enough wood gas to keep the secondary fire fed above. Usually she's in "cruise control" for the rest of the burn then (damper doesn't open again) but occasionally the flue temp drops off too far and the temp controller will allow the damper to open (if the timer has not run out of time) and the cycle begins again.

You can do kinda the same thing with yours manually...load the same way, turn the draft blower on with the flapper wide open, after the temps are where you want them, close the flapper 50%, let things stabilize for a while (you will have to figure out how long this takes) then close it another 50% (at this point I'd think you'd be really close to where they want you to run it, 3/8) after the fire stabilizes again, then shut the blower off. This is basically how I run my wood stove too.
Not having a window makes it harder to learn how long this takes, but at least you have those cool temp sensors now, that helps to know what's going on in there.
The only thing that still bothers me about doing this is how you get backfires hours and hours into the burn..._that _is unusual!


----------



## Mrpelletburner

BoiledOver said:


> Is it possible that air is coming from your masonry chimney, such as a shared cleanout chamber? Somewhere in this Moby Dick thread I recall seeing a photo of at least two stacks coming out of the chimney top.



The chimney has 3 separate stacks.

This is a vide looking up at the t-snout clean out.


----------



## Medic21

Mrpelletburner said:


> Trust me, not trying to burn small splits, however anytime I have added a larger split, the fire almost goes out from smoking itself out.
> 
> 
> The following is a photos are of my shed. The sizes of splits are what was delivered from the local fire wood supplier.
> 
> View attachment 224949
> View attachment 224950
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Funny... they told me 1200, but didn't say how many are in use.
> 
> 
> 
> Can you provide more details regarding hotter for longer?
> 
> The load from last night started puffing at 6am in the morning and it is all you could smell.



If your larger splits are burning out try to add them when the inducer is on and make sure you leave your door/doors open long enough to get it going.  The same principle for burning hotter.  Turn the thermostat up and get the load burnt down.  I hit 75-77 in the house.  Off of a full load on the stove I still have enough heat for 3-4 hours and the house will be 70-72 6-7 hours later.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Reloaded this morning at 5:10 am, 4-5 splits and almost 1 hour later, the stove puffed 7 times in a 5-minute window, flue temperature was 383F, with plenty of draft. Also, after each puff, notice how the flue temperature quickly rises (top temperature reading of the digital gauge).

:39 marker
1:31 marker
2:19 marker
2:58 marker
3:30 marker
4:00 marker
4:43 marker

Noticed the flue temp starts off at 383F and after each puff, the temperature quickly rises. Added 5 splits at 5:10am. Again, almost 1 hour after the stove puffs.


----------



## Medic21

One hour into it after reloading my flue temp is between 500-600.  Your not burning hot enough for the stove to burn off the gasses. 

Try having the  doors open longer after loading and/or opening up the slide to allow more air in.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Medic21 said:


> One hour into it after reloading my flue temp is between 500-600.  Your not burning hot enough for the stove to burn off the gasses.
> 
> Try having the  doors open longer after loading and/or opening up the slide to allow more air in.



But shouldn't we be able to load the stove and walk away? Or at least not stand there for 15mins until we are burning hot enough?


----------



## Mrpelletburner

So yesterday I didn't use the stove, which means I didn't have to deal with any "puffs" or smoke alarms.

Here are 2 videos of my t-snout. Remember the liner was installed maybe a month ago, it's really black already. I do have a SS t-snout slip over extension so the SS pipe extends into the basement, it is just not shown in the video. Not sure if it is because I have the piping all apart, but the t-snout had a 5 degree angle. So the front of the t-snout was higher then the connection of the vertical pipe. Like I said, this could just because the SS liner/t-snout is just hanging in the open flue (you will understand watching the video). However the lowest reading of the manometer is  -.04" wc.

Thoughts/suggestions? Trying to keep things fresh here


----------



## maple1

That is pretty dirty looking, for having had a 'clean burner' attached to it. Seems to be more evidence that it is not working as it should be. IMO there should be nothing but fly ash in there.

Stepping back a bit and reassessing/recapping - if I was looking at this for the first time, there are 3 main things I would ask about.

1. Quality/dryness of wood. From prior posts, it seems like you have demonstrated that is not the issue, with MC readings?

2. Adequate/proper draft. From the vids, it is plain to see that isn't the issue, with the manometer readings.

3. Proper operating procedures. I can't remember now but think you have even been running it as they have been directing you to or with their suggestions? 

Which all leads back to some kind of design issue with the furnace. Which could be a dangerous type of design issue, also based on prior posts & vids. There could be something in what you are doing that is somehow amplifying the effects of the design shortfall, but with proper design you shouldn't be having issues at all with 1, 2 & 3 being satisfied. I have never heard or read of anyone having these issues with any other furnace, even when trying to use it with damp wood, improper draft, or wonky procedures.


----------



## Medic21

Mrpelletburner said:


> But shouldn't we be able to load the stove and walk away? Or at least not stand there for 15mins until we are burning hot enough?



I have never had a stove that I could load and immediately walk away from.  I would be happy with 15 min.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

maple1 said:


> 1. Quality/dryness of wood. From prior posts, it seems like you have demonstrated that is not the issue, with MC readings?
> 
> 2. Adequate/proper draft. From the vids, it is plain to see that isn't the issue, with the manometer readings.
> 
> 3. Proper operating procedures. I can't remember now but think you have even been running it as they have been directing you to or with their suggestions?



1. Up to last week, all the wood had been stored in a woodshed for at least 18-20 months. The wood I am currently burning has been stored in a woodshed for at least a year. However, I am not sure how long it was sitting in a woodpile before being delivered. But since the problem has been with both batches, I think we can rule out the wood.

2. Correct

3. Yes... It would be helpful if HY-C would post a video of the proper way to cold start and reload the stove. Or some video of stoves running at their facility.  I believe Kuuma has a video out there demonstrating how to cold start and reload.

The folks that I have talked to at HY-C have the outdoor version FC1900 which is configured different then the FC1000.  Would be helpful to hear from others with this stove, not already posting on this thread. If HY-C sold 2K stoves, that tells me at least 500-1k have to be out there in use somewhere.

In the end, I know that HY-C has a solid reputation and a ton of success with the prior models wood furnaces.


I already have put so much time and effort into this stove during work off hours and lost a ton of billable time during work hours. At this point, a trade up to the FC1500 would be welcomed or some refund.


----------



## Medic21

@Mrpelletburner shouldnt the liner be insulated?  I've never messed with one.  I could see a huge creosote issue uninsulated


----------



## maple1

Medic21 said:


> @Mrpelletburner shouldnt the liner be insulated?  I've never messed with one.  I could see a huge creosote issue uninsulated



I'm thinking that there shouldn't be that much creosote at the connection - which I think is what the above vids are showing? - even if the rest of the chimney isn't insulated. Those earlier vids of smoke rolling past the baro opening seem clear evidence that it's not burning anywhere like it should be.

Is it worse farther up the chimney? I wasn't sure what I was seeing in some of that.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Medic21 said:


> @Mrpelletburner shouldn't the liner be insulated?  I've never messed with one.  I could see a huge creosote issue uninsulated



According to HY-C, insulating the liner was not required. The chimney has an outer brick layer, air gap, 8x12 clay lined flue, more air space and finally the SS liner. 

The t-snout is so close to the stove, should be nothing but fly ash between the heat exchanger and the t-snout.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

maple1 said:


> I'm thinking that there shouldn't be that much creosote at the connection - which I think is what the above vids are showing?



Yes



maple1 said:


> Is it worse farther up the chimney? I wasn't sure what I was seeing in some of that.



Going to run a camera down the SS liner.


----------



## 3fordasho

Medic21 said:


> I have never had a stove that I could load and immediately walk away from.  I would be happy with 15 min.




I can do that with both my Tundra's, even on a cold start.   Took a couple hundred in extra controls to make it happen though.


----------



## maple1

3fordasho said:


> I can do that with both my Tundra's, even on a cold start.   Took a couple hundred in extra controls to make it happen though.



I don't have a stove, or a furnace - rather a boiler. But I can reload it and immediately walk away from it.

Open bypass, open door, load it up (rake coals into a pile first if needed), close door, close bypass. Good until it needs reloading again or until it burns out.

Cold starts need a bit more - I usually give it 5 minutes or so to get going before I close the bypass.

It has no controls at all (aside from an aquastat to turn the boiler pump off & on) and is natural draft - the draft door is wide open all the time. It just burns away until the fuel is all gone. It all comes down to the design & engineering - proper air flow to primary & secondary under a certain draft spec assuming wood of a certain moisture content. Easy.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Around outside of t-snout


T-snout and up stack ~12'-16'


----------



## brenndatomu

Man you have some nasty stage 3 creosote...and yes, stage 3 is bad...that's like the chimneys you read about in the newspaper, or hear about on the evening news...3 alarm fire.
I really didn't expect anything less...the way that thing was smoking, in at least the one vid...and smoke = creosote.
What is really scary is the creosote that was left on the masonry chimney when you lined it...you light that off (yes it can happen with a liner, especially an uninsulated one) and there will be no putting it out until everything is gone...will the house still be there when its over? Dunno...but I'd quit using it immediately, until that chimney can be cleaned properly (probably gonna need a pro cleaning) both inside the liner and inside the masonry flue.
And yes, walking away from the furnace within 15 minutes is totally reasonable...I do it everyday...sometimes even 5 minutes.
Even if they "upgrade" you to a FC1500, what changes? Isn't it just a larger version of the same crap?
I personally think they have had their 1st, 2cnd, 3rd, and 4th chances (and more) already, I surely wouldn't allow any more of their crap in my house!


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> So yesterday I didn't use the stove, which means I didn't have to deal with any "puffs" or smoke alarms.
> 
> Here are 2 videos of my t-snout. Remember the liner was installed maybe a month ago, it's really black already. I do have a SS t-snout slip over extension so the SS pipe extends into the basement, it is just not shown in the video. Not sure if it is because I have the piping all apart, but the t-snout had a 5 degree angle. So the front of the t-snout was higher then the connection of the vertical pipe. Like I said, this could just because the SS liner/t-snout is just hanging in the open flue (you will understand watching the video). However the lowest reading of the manometer is  -.04" wc.
> 
> Thoughts/suggestions? Trying to keep things fresh here





Mrpelletburner said:


> Around outside of t-snout
> 
> 
> T-snout and up stack ~12'-16'



Not even kidding about that ^ ^ ^ chimney, and just for a second opinion, maybe a check in with our resident chimney pro...hey @bholler  what do you think of this chimney? Would you "red tag" it?


----------



## bholler

Mrpelletburner said:


> According to HY-C, insulating the liner was not required. The chimney has an outer brick layer, air gap, 8x12 clay lined flue, more air space and finally the SS liner.
> 
> The t-snout is so close to the stove, should be nothing but fly ash between the heat exchanger and the t-snout.


Do you have tgevrequired clearance from the outside of the masonry structure to combustible materials?  This is 1" for an external chimney and 2" for an internal one.  Regardless looking at your liner you need insulation.  Also did you clean the chimney completly before installing the liner?  It looks really dirty which is extremly dangerous.  In addition you need a stainless extention added to tgat tee snout that is riveted fast and extends atleast 1.5" out of the wall.  

As far as the puffback problem all of your symptoms sound like the typical wet wood problems.  How long has your wood been cut split and top covered?  When you test with a moisture meter is the split at room temp?  Have you checked your moisture meter.

Another possible issue is the fact that you have no cold air duct hooked up.  That means your distribution blower is sucking all of its air from right behind the stove.  That can cause the stove to starve for air which can cause your issues.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Here's a reference for you. This was a light on a cold firebox.  I put some crumpled paper, kindling and a dry 6" dia maple round split into a handful of pieces.  We don't need much because of the warmer temps but the other half was getting cold even though it was 70° in here.  I will be doing a small night re-load once we go to bed.  Anyway, from the light of the paper to when the computer opened up the damper and took control over the burn........90 seconds (date/time stamp is in the top left corner).  That's it, no babysitting nothing.  As soon as the computer takes control you can shut the ashpan door and walk away.........just as I did.

Blower turned on 22.5 minutes after I walked away when the plenum temps hit ~150°.  Plenum temp was 63° when I started the fire.


----------



## bholler

Brenndatomu is absolutly right that liner install and creosote is really scary.  It is a accident waiting to happen.


----------



## bholler

brenndatomu said:


> Not even kidding about that ^ ^ ^ chimney, and just for a second opinion, maybe a check in with our resident chimney pro...hey @bholler  what do you think of this chimney? Would you "red tag" it?


It is bad yes but i dont have the authority nor do i want the authority to red tag anything.  But i sure as hell eould not burn it that way with my family in the house.


----------



## brenndatomu

bholler said:


> It is bad yes but i dont have the authority nor do i want the authority to red tag anything.  But i sure as hell eould not burn it that way with my family in the house.


Yeah, I didn't mean in a literal sense...more just in a "give the guy the facts"...'bout all we can do here anyways.
You don't wanna be a chimney cop. 'eh?  Better zip my lip before I give the EPA ideas...


----------



## Mrpelletburner

bholler said:


> Do you have the required clearance from the outside of the masonry structure to combustible materials?  This is 1" for an external chimney and 2" for an internal one.



According to the town building inspector, I have the required spacing.



bholler said:


> Regardless looking at your liner you need insulation.



Not questioning, but asking why you are stating I need insulation. The reason why I am asking is because the town building inspector stated I did not have to insulate the SS liner, HY-C also stated the insulation was not required and my neighbor just had a local stove shop install an EPA rated wood stove at the same time and they did not insulate his SS liner (same 6" setup). So are you suggesting for safety or to keep the stack temps?

I was planning on using vermiculite concrete around the SS liner vs the blanket style. The reason is so I don't have to break apart the clay liner, which about 2" away from my pellet stove clay liner and run the risk of breaking that clay liner. 



bholler said:


> Also did you clean the chimney completely before installing the liner?  It looks really dirty which is extremly dangerous.



I had it cleaned by On Duty Chimney Service on February 14th for $185. The top-outside of the chimney needs to be cleaned this summer as the old wood stove was a creosol machine.



bholler said:


> In addition you need a stainless extension added to the tee snout that is riveted fast and extends atleast 1.5" out of the wall.



I did order the extension (I think I read about the 1.5" last week), it arrived the other day. Will install and rivet in place. Thanks for the info!




bholler said:


> As far as the puffback problem all of your symptoms sound like the typical wet wood problems. How long has your wood been cut split and top covered?  When you test with a moisture meter is the split at room temp?  Have you checked your moisture meter.



This year I burned 2 different stacks of wood. I first started using this stove around Feb 18th and up until around the March 16th, I was burning wood that had been covered in a wood shed and was split/stacked 2 years ago. Since around March 16, I have been burning wood that was purchased from a local fire wood supplier. They claimed it was seasoned, however from my past dealings with them, that just means it needs to sit for another year. So those splits were stacked last spring in my other covered wood shed. I try to bring in wood so it can reach room temperature before burning. This very long thread contains a couple photos of the different wood I was burning, including a photo of a fresh split with a moisture content measure at ~22%.

So, since I have had the issue with both stacks of wood, I was ruling out wet wood.




bholler said:


> Another possible issue is the fact that you have no cold air duct hooked up.  That means your distribution blower is sucking all of its air from right behind the stove.  That can cause the stove to starve for air which can cause your issues.



So, yes I don't have a cold air duct return, however I keep the basement door wide opened. I have also had the basement window open and the bulkhead door opened and still had the same outcome. Also the way this stove is constructed, there is a plate attached to the bottom of this stove. In the front center, the plate does not have a screw and when the blower is running, you can feel the air from the blower coming from this air gap. While I highly doubt this is by design, I can assure anyone that there is a ton of fresh air leaking from this small gap, directly feeding the draft blower.


I truly appreciate all the suggestions/feedback and safety red flags as I have learned a ton from this forum. So please keep keep commenting. I will keep posting to this thread so I have a time line of what happened when.


I know I am not the only one with this stove that is having this issue, however it seems I am the only one with the cresol build up.


----------



## bholler

Mrpelletburner said:


> According to the town building inspector, I have the required spacing.
> 
> 
> 
> Not questioning, but asking why you are stating I need insulation. The reason why I am asking is because the town building inspector stated I did not have to insulate the SS liner, HY-C also stated the insulation was not required and my neighbor just had a local stove shop install an EPA rated wood stove at the same time and they did not insulate his SS liner (same 6" setup). So are you suggesting for safety or to keep the stack temps?
> 
> I was planning on using vermiculite concrete around the SS liner vs the blanket style. The reason is so I don't have to break apart the clay liner, which about 2" away from my pellet stove clay liner and run the risk of breaking that clay liner.
> 
> 
> 
> I had it cleaned by On Duty Chimney Service on February 14th for $185. The top-outside of the chimney needs to be cleaned this summer as the old wood stove was a creosol machine.
> 
> 
> 
> I did order the extension (I think I read about the 1.5" last week), it arrived the other day. Will install and rivet in place. Thanks for the info!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This year I burned 2 different stacks of wood. I first started using this stove around Feb 18th and up until around the March 16th, I was burning wood that had been covered in a wood shed and was split/stacked 2 years ago. Since around March 16, I have been burning wood that was purchased from a local fire wood supplier. They claimed it was seasoned, however from my past dealings with them, that just means it needs to sit for another year. So those splits were stacked last spring in my other covered wood shed. I try to bring in wood so it can reach room temperature before burning. This very long thread contains a couple photos of the different wood I was burning, including a photo of a fresh split with a moisture content measure at ~22%.
> 
> So, since I have had the issue with both stacks of wood, I was ruling out wet wood.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, yes I don't have a cold air duct return, however I keep the basement door wide opened. I have also had the basement window open and the bulkhead door opened and still had the same outcome. Also the way this stove is constructed, there is a plate attached to the bottom of this stove. In the front center, the plate does not have a screw and when the blower is running, you can feel the air from the blower coming from this air gap. While I highly doubt this is by design, I can assure anyone that there is a ton of fresh air leaking from this small gap, directly feeding the draft blower.
> 
> 
> I truly appreciate all the suggestions/feedback and safety red flags as I have learned a ton from this forum. So please keep keep commenting. I will keep posting to this thread so I have a time line of what happened when.
> 
> 
> I know I am not the only one with this stove that is having this issue, however it seems I am the only one with the cresol build up.


Well for starters did the inspecter pull any trim between the chimney and house to see if you have the required 1" gap between the house and the chimney?  If not he has no clue if you have the required clearances.  Honestly most inspectors we deal with had no clue clearance was needed.

I said you need it regardless to keep up the temps.  If you do have the clearances needed pour in would work ok just to help keep temps up.  But if you dont have or cant confirm them the pour in isnt enough because you cant get the required 1" of insulation needed. You dont have enough room.

You may have had it cleaned but it wasnt cleaned anywhere near well enough.  There are plenty of times we remove the tiles because it is the fastest and cheapest way to remove the creosote if it is bad.

As far as the wood i have no idea if that is the issue or not.  When you test your wood is it at room temp?  That makes a big difference unless your mm can adjust for temp.  If it was me i would buy some bundles of the compressed wood bricks and see if that adresses the issue.  Because most of your symptoms sound like wet wood.  It can also be lack of air but i would eliminate the wood possibility first.

Yes i saw that you said you leave the door open.  But that blower sucking air out right by the furnace can absolutly still cause a negative pressure problem there.

And it is creosote not creosol.  Sorry i just had to correct you there


----------



## maple1

bholler said:


> Well for starters did the inspecter pull any trim between the chimney and house to see if you have the required 1" gap between the house and the chimney?  If not he has no clue if you have the required clearances.  Honestly most inspectors we deal with had no clue clearance was needed.
> 
> I said you need it regardless to keep up the temps.  If you do have the clearances needed pour in would work ok just to help keep temps up.  But if you dont have or cant confirm them the pour in isnt enough because you cant get the required 1" of insulation needed. You dont have enough room.
> 
> You may have had it cleaned but it wasnt cleaned anywhere near well enough.  There are plenty of times we remove the tiles because it is the fastest and cheapest way to remove the creosote if it is bad.
> 
> As far as the wood i have no idea if that is the issue or not.  When you test your wood is it at room temp?  That makes a big difference unless your mm can adjust for temp.  If it was me i would buy some bundles of the compressed wood bricks and see if that adresses the issue.  Because most of your symptoms sound like wet wood.  It can also be lack of air but i would eliminate the wood possibility first.
> 
> Yes i saw that you said you leave the door open.  But that blower sucking air out right by the furnace can absolutly still cause a negative pressure problem there.
> 
> And it is creosote not creosol.  Sorry i just had to correct you there



But - I have never seen anyone with the explosion problems and degree of them that have been seen here, no matter the draft or MC situation

Also - the semi-permanently mounted manometer would seem to verify that draft is not an issue at all?

We are sort of crossing issues here, creosote accumulation vs. all the other problems. But I think the croesote in this case is a symptom of the bigger problem - faulty furnace design.


----------



## bholler

maple1 said:


> But - I have never seen anyone with the explosion problems and degree of them that have been seen here, no matter the draft or MC situation
> 
> Also - the semi-permanently mounted manometer would seem to verify that draft is not an issue at all?
> 
> We are sort of crossing issues here, creosote accumulation vs. all the other problems. But I think the croesote in this case is a symptom of the bigger problem - faulty furnace design.


I have seen tons of puffback issues due to wet wood.  And as far as the manometer reading that doesnt tell you where that negative pressure is coming from just that there is negative pressure at the end of that line.  Usually it means your chimney is pulling a draft but it can also mean the house is pulling on the chimney.

It may very well be an issue with poor furnace design i dont know.  But i can see quite a few issues that could be contributing factors


----------



## Medic21

maple1 said:


> But - I have never seen anyone with the explosion problems and degree of them that have been seen here, no matter the draft or MC situation



I don't think any of us with the furnace have seen these issues like he has.  Just saying...

Maybe it is time for a pro installer to inspect it for him and get away from the DIY realm.  I would have had this done already, more ammo to fight with.  He may very well have a faulty furnace and that is why he is having more problems, and worse problems, than the rest of us.  I would find the closest dealer that sells them and get their installer there to give a professional opinion.  If they say it's all good and are willing to go to bat for him that would make things happen. 

Also, I was under the impression that all liners needed to be insulated regardless of building code.  Regardless of install instructions of a stove.  My shop furnace uses a 3/8" steel pipe out the side with a through the wall thimble kit. Safe? Yes.  Creosote producing monster? Yes.  I'll video how I remove the creosote someday .


----------



## maple1

bholler said:


> I have seen tons of puffback issues due to wet wood.  And as far as the manometer reading that doesnt tell you where that negative pressure is coming from just that there is negative pressure at the end of that line.  Usually it means your chimney is pulling a draft but it can also mean the house is pulling on the chimney.
> 
> It may very well be an issue with poor furnace design i dont know.  But i can see quite a few issues that could be contributing factors



Yes that is true about the house could be pulling on the chimney, but in that case the house would be full of smoke pretty quick. And also there are the vids of the smoke rolling pretty vigorously past the baro opening.

Agree on possible other issues - and wet wood would be my first thing I would question. But it seems that has been addressed. And I wouldn't expect any wet wood like issues, an hour or 2 into the burn like here.

Quite a saga - no matter the outcome, I am really curious what it is or will be, no matter how it turns out.


----------



## maple1

Medic21 said:


> I don't think any of us with the furnace have seen these issues like he has.  Just saying...
> 
> Maybe it is time for a pro installer to inspect it for him and get away from the DIY realm.  I would have had this done already, more ammo to fight with.  He may very well have a faulty furnace and that is why he is having more problems, and worse problems, than the rest of us.  I would find the closest dealer that sells them and get their installer there to give a professional opinion.  If they say it's all good and are willing to go to bat for him that would make things happen.
> 
> Also, I was under the impression that all liners needed to be insulated regardless of building code.  Regardless of install instructions of a stove.  My shop furnace uses a 3/8" steel pipe out the side with a through the wall thimble kit. Safe? Yes.  Creosote producing monster? Yes.  I'll video how I remove the creosote someday .



Yes true, this seems to be the extreme example of the issues. but I guess with any issues, there has to be an extreme end somewhere.

Getting a pro in would also be good, not sure what the local situation is for that there. Any independent WETT inspectors around? An independent assessment about the furnace design would also be interesting - but even harder to find or get, and likely not small $$.


----------



## bholler

maple1 said:


> Yes that is true about the house could be pulling on the chimney, but in that case the house would be full of smoke pretty quick. And also there are the vids of the smoke rolling pretty vigorously past the baro opening.
> 
> Agree on possible other issues - and wet wood would be my first thing I would question. But it seems that has been addressed. And I wouldn't expect any wet wood like issues, an hour or 2 into the burn like here.
> 
> Quite a saga - no matter the outcome, I am really curious what it is or will be, no matter how it turns out.


No it wouldnt fill the house with smoke unless the negative pressure overpowers the draft of the chimney.  If it doesnt it will just cause performance issues like slow startup and backpuffing.


----------



## bholler

maple1 said:


> Yes true, this seems to be the extreme example of the issues. but I guess with any issues, there has to be an extreme end somewhere.
> 
> Getting a pro in would also be good, not sure what the local situation is for that there. Any independent WETT inspectors around? An independent assessment about the furnace design would also be interesting - but even harder to find or get, and likely not small $$.


We have no wett inspectors here.  In the states you would get a chimney sweep


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Starting to think HY-C has given up on me ;(


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Starting to think HY-C has given up on me ;(


Why do you say that?
They _do_ have your money already, so...


----------



## JRHAWK9

You need to look at the bright side.  You now have something to hold a really big door open with!!


----------



## Mrpelletburner

So this was just pointed out to me... The SS liner that I had purchased had a shorter t-snout (it is being replaced with the correct length) and where the seams are welded together you see where air is being pulled in. The thought is this fresh air is causing the back puffing.

Thoughts?


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> So this was just pointed out to me... The SS liner that I had purchased had a shorter t-snout (it is being replaced with the correct length) and where the seams are welded together you see where air is being pulled in. The thought is this fresh air is causing the back puffing.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> 
> View attachment 225094


Well, personally I would fix that, just because...but I highly doubt it is going to affect the problem one bit.


----------



## bholler

Mrpelletburner said:


> So this was just pointed out to me... The SS liner that I had purchased had a shorter t-snout (it is being replaced with the correct length) and where the seams are welded together you see where air is being pulled in. The thought is this fresh air is causing the back puffing.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> 
> View attachment 225094


That would not cause backpuffing like you have.  Especially when you have a barometric damper in the pipe letting in air.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Good point! 

BTW “had”, that thing got destroyed. It’s now just a straight pipe with (2) 45’s.


----------



## maple1

Mrpelletburner said:


> So this was just pointed out to me... The SS liner that I had purchased had a shorter t-snout (it is being replaced with the correct length) and where the seams are welded together you see where air is being pulled in. The thought is this fresh air is causing the back puffing.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> 
> View attachment 225094


 

No way. As I think I already said on similar theory a page or two back.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

maple1 said:


> No way. As I think I already said on similar theory a page or two back.



So that small bit of air is one of the root causes of the "puffs" in the stack?

If so, that doesn't explain @Medic21  having "puffs"


----------



## bholler

Mrpelletburner said:


> So that small bit of air is one of the root causes of the "puffs" in the stack?
> 
> If so, that doesn't explain @Medic21  having "puffs"


I seriously doubt it has any effect at all.  And i also doubt the puffs are in the stack.  It is probably in the stove it just shows up in the stack because it is the path of least resistance.  The chances of you having enough temp in the stack to allow for ignition of those gasses are very slim.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Bookmarking the following page.

http://www.hawk.igs.net/~sunworks/backpuff.html


----------



## JRHAWK9

Mrpelletburner said:


> Bookmarking the following page.
> 
> http://www.hawk.igs.net/~sunworks/backpuff.html



from that link:


> Dry firewood split and stacked 12-18 months is usually the best thing to burn


 

I guess I'm doing it wrong then by burning some 7 year old wood I had this winter.  It will be 8 years old next winter.  Funny, it seems to do just fine.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Just would like to confirm the following... 

The Kuuma, Caddy, Drolet and other stoves mentioned in this thread have some sort of "auto" draft control?

Edit: “auto” primary air control


----------



## JRHAWK9

They all have an auto DRAFT control....it's called a barometric damper.  

Kuuma is the only one which has a fully automatic controlled primary air damper based on internal firebox temps.



Some who have Tundra's have made their own damper controls using flue temps.


----------



## 3fordasho

Mrpelletburner said:


> Just would like to confirm the following...
> 
> The Kuuma, Caddy, Drolet and other stoves mentioned in this thread have some sort of "auto" draft control?


 

Caddy and Drolet Tundra/Tundra II, Heatpack, HeatPro all have a motorized flapper over the primary air inlet. It is either wide open, or closed down to a minimum of a 3/4" hole opening. There is no in between control of the flapper like the Kuuma has. The Secondary air inlets are always open.

  The factory control of the primary flapper is open when the thermostat is calling for heat, or a manual air inlet switch is in the "on" position.   The factory hi-limit will close the primary flapper when tripped.

Some of us have fine tuned that open /close flapper based on flue temps, in my case I close it if it hits a selectable high flue temp, and open it if it hits a settable low temp.    More of us have added a spring loaded "hot tub" timer to hold the damper open for cold starts or reloads to char a new load of wood and get the firebox up to temp.   These are the reasons I can throw a load of wood in and walk away with no concerns.  No leaving doors open, etc.


----------



## maple1

Mrpelletburner said:


> So that small bit of air is one of the root causes of the "puffs" in the stack?
> 
> If so, that doesn't explain @Medic21  having "puffs"



No. What I meant was, no way does that cause your puffing. As I also said re. a similar 'engineer' theory a page or two back.


----------



## brenndatomu

3fordasho said:


> The Secondary air inlets are always open.


That's the key right there...and the reason these FC's will never work properly as they are designed now...IMO of course


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Bookmarking the following page.
> 
> http://www.hawk.igs.net/~sunworks/backpuff.html


I skimmed this real quick...I will read the rest later...I assume you linked that due to the cool chimney part...if that was your issue you wouldn't have draft...and you do per the Dwyer...now, that said I understand @bholler s point from before about the meter could be showing "house draft" and not chimney draft...but I really doubt that is your issue...I think the chimney is fine and it is a stove issue.
Did you ever have this problem with your old stove...no? If not then I'd say that's very strong proof it is an issue with the FC1000


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Zero issue with my old Huntsman stove.

Perhaps a combo of things?

My newbie opinion.. The stove is filling with smoke faster then it can be cleared/burned due to fixed draft blower air intake opening.

Should of asked more questions before buying the stove.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Should of asked more questions before buying the stove.


Has there been any indication from HY-C that they will fix/replace/take back this unit?


----------



## Mrpelletburner

NONE!


----------



## JRHAWK9

Mrpelletburner said:


> NONE!



So what are your plans going forward?  I would have a hard time chalking it up to a bad decision and eating it.


----------



## Medic21

Mrpelletburner said:


> NONE!



This is where it is time to get a professional involved.  Verify your installation and then you would have ammunition to push it.  All manufacturers will, and probably should, blame the install first.  There is a possibility you have a defective unit also.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Still thinking on how to proceed forward.

In the mean time... more videos 

So I connected up another stove pipe setup (Olympia stove pipe without the long seams and (2) 45 degree elbows. Operated the stove for 24 hours with the thermostat set to 80 degrees and flue temps above 300F. The goal was to see what the inside of the new stove pipe would look like after 24 hours. I expected the look to be the same as the clean burn of my pellet stove, however still black gloss looking.


----------



## Medic21

Holy chit!  Only 24 hours?

With your inducer on and flap opened all the way.  Do you feel any air up top along the secondary?


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Inducer on the whole time (yup it was hot in this house) and opened 1/2". I am assuming the secondary burn kicked in b/c the stove would reach 800F top left of the load door (I have a thermocouple attached with JB Weld ;P ).


----------



## JRHAWK9

I'm assuming you cleaned it before this 24 hour test?  Or are you expecting the old creosote to just magically disappear when it gets hotter, which it won't unless you induce a chimney fire.

EDIT.  I'm the dumba$$ who didn't read the whole thing.  Totally missed the whole part about using another stove pipe.


----------



## Medic21

Mrpelletburner said:


> Inducer on the whole time (yup it was hot in this house) and opened 1/2". I am assuming the secondary burn kicked in b/c the stove would reach 800F top left of the load door (I have a thermocouple attached with JB Weld ;P ).



That is where the primary air is directed.  I'm wondering if you open it up and turn it on if you even feel a small flow out of it.  I guess what I'm getting at is I'm wondering if it's blocked


----------



## Medic21

I have zero smoke when it's burning.  And a small secondary flame when the blower shuts off.  No smoke then either.  With the smoke going pat your baro and how dirty it's burning I'm thinking you have a secondary problem.


----------



## bholler

Mrpelletburner said:


> Zero issue with my old Huntsman stove.
> 
> Perhaps a combo of things?
> 
> My newbie opinion.. The stove is filling with smoke faster then it can be cleared/burned due to fixed draft blower air intake opening.
> 
> Should of asked more questions before buying the stove.


That is absolutley a possibility.  Have you tried some of the compressed wood brick yet to eliminate wood as being the issue?


----------



## Medic21

JRHAWK9 said:


> unless you induce a chimney fire.



that's exactly how I clean the shop stack that's heavy steel pipe...  time to do that tonight.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

bholler said:


> That is absolutley a possibility.  Have you tried some of the compressed wood brick yet to eliminate wood as being the issue?



I haven't... not sure who around here would sell compressed wood. Good suggestion.


----------



## JRHAWK9

go buy a couple 2x4's from your local Home Depot, cut them up and burn a firebox full of them.


----------



## bholler

JRHAWK9 said:


> go buy a couple 2x4's from your local Home Depot, cut them up and burn a firebox full of them.


I dont think i would burn a firebox full of 2x4s.  That is just begging for an overfire.


----------



## JRHAWK9

I guess I didn't literally mean a full firebox of them......although it may help clean things up and get it to burn clean!


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> I haven't... not sure who around here would sell compressed wood. Good suggestion.


Tractor Supply Co, Farm stores, Lowes, Home Despot, Menards, etc 
Don't burn a whole load of bricks by themselves...I'd likely do 50/50...and you start them burning them same way as firewood, they are hard to light without hot coals or other established fire going already.


----------



## maple1

I've been saying design defect all along. But I could also see it being a manufacturing defect. Like, say, hole(s) not drilled or passages misaligned?  Or something else just as dumb. Hard to check those things out thru a computer though.


----------



## bholler

maple1 said:


> I've been saying design defect all along. But I could also see it being a manufacturing defect. Like, say, hole(s) not drilled or passages misaligned?  Or something else just as dumb. Hard to check those things out thru a computer though.


Like i said before that may be true but tgere are some basic things to try before making that determination.  Like making sure the wood is not wet because the all symptoms being experinced are commonly experinced with wet wood


----------



## brenndatomu

brenndatomu said:


> Has there been any indication from HY-C that they will fix/replace/take back this unit?





Mrpelletburner said:


> NONE!


Booo!


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Just double checked the secondary air holes and they are clear. 

Something that I noticed... 

Opening the draft blower slider all the way open. The secondary air flow did not increase as much as the primary air. The primary holes felt like a fan on high and the secondary air holes felt like a fan on a low (very little air flow).

It appears that the draft blower air is directed to the primary air hole openings, where the secondary air holes has the same air flow whether the draft blower is wide opened or closed.

Going to ask this to HY-C


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Opening the draft blower slider all the way open. The secondary air flow did not increase as much as the primary air. The primary holes felt like a fan on high and the secondary air holes felt like a fan on a low (very little air flow).
> 
> It appears that the draft blower air is directed to the primary air hole openings, where the secondary air holes has the same air flow whether the draft blower is wide opened or closed.


Path of least resistance...like I said about 10 pages back. Too much primary air, not enough secondary...and both from the same source...bad idea.
Do this test again, only put some tape or something over some (most) of the primary holes...now I bet you will see more of a change in the secondary air flow when you open that blower flap up...


----------



## Medic21

Mrpelletburner said:


> Just double checked the secondary air holes and they are clear.
> 
> Something that I noticed...
> 
> Opening the draft blower slider all the way open. The secondary air flow did not increase as much as the primary air. The primary holes felt like a fan on high and the secondary air holes felt like a fan on a low (very little air flow).
> 
> It appears that the draft blower air is directed to the primary air hole openings, where the secondary air holes has the same air flow whether the draft blower is wide opened or closed.
> 
> Going to ask this to HY-C



Identical to mine.  I have thought about fabricating a slide of some sorts to be able to redirect the air after it is burning.  Maybe weldnon a couple studs and make it so I can close off or partially block the large holes


----------



## Medic21

Ok, I experienced what @Mrpelletburner has experienced tonight so I thought I would share what I did wrong:

Wood is wetter than what I have been burning. Ash that was cut down dead in November not covered.  It does still burn pretty good. 

Loaded too much too fast colder than normal. A lot of smokdering and smoke.  Opened the bottom door to feed air to get it going and had a nice little smoke explosion that shot flame almost three feet out of the bottom door.  

Closed up too soon with the draft Motor door open.

I sat there and watched multiple puffs in rapid succession. 

I opened the bottom door and ran the stack up to 800 and shut it up.  Played that game for 35 min until I could get it to burn clean.  

After that it still burned slow for an hour.  Once it got going and the temps started climbing I was able to adjust everything for the night.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Besides the slow start, I have been able to avoid the mini explosions, just small puffs from the stack.

Today I started working on getting the stove going at 7:50am, by 8:20 the stove was burning nice. Started with a torch to get the air warm and a draft to pull, very small fire and kept the ash door just barely open and the load door opened ¼”. 

As the fire started to burn, I added 1 split at a time until the fire looked right. I then shut the ash door and leave the load door opened  ¼” until the fire looks a certain way (photo attached).

How I know it is the right time to shut the door? After shutting the load door, the fire box temp should continue to rise at a steady rate. If after shutting the load door, the box temp doesn’t rise, then the fire is not ready and I keep the load door opened ¼” until the stove temp can rise with the load door shut.

Small fire to start






Ready to close


----------



## JRHAWK9

Medic21 said:


> Ok, I experienced what @Mrpelletburner has experienced tonight so I thought I would share what I did wrong:




Just because you didn't happen to jump through hoop A on the way to hoop B while crossing road C before meeting road D doesn't mean you did anything wrong.  Any wood furnace which makes it to market should not have a very specific set of prerequisites one must meet in order for it not to become a health/safety hazard.  Quit putting the blame on yourself and direct it where it should be going........to the manufacturer.


----------



## maple1

Mrpelletburner said:


> Besides the slow start, I have been able to avoid the mini explosions, just small puffs from the stack.
> 
> Today I started working on getting the stove going at 7:50am, by 8:20 the stove was burning nice. Started with a torch to get the air warm and a draft to pull, very small fire and kept the ash door just barely open and the load door opened ¼”.
> 
> As the fire started to burn, I added 1 split at a time until the fire looked right. I then shut the ash door and leave the load door opened  ¼” until the fire looks a certain way (photo attached).
> 
> How I know it is the right time to shut the door? After shutting the load door, the fire box temp should continue to rise at a steady rate. If after shutting the load door, the box temp doesn’t rise, then the fire is not ready and I keep the load door opened ¼” until the stove temp can rise with the load door shut.
> 
> Small fire to start
> View attachment 225282
> 
> 
> Ready to close
> View attachment 225283



That's a lot of babysitting. Which should not be required.


----------



## Medic21

JRHAWK9 said:


> Just because you didn't happen to jump through hoop A on the way to hoop B while crossing road C before meeting road D doesn't mean you did anything wrong.  Any wood furnace which makes it to market should not have a very specific set of prerequisites one must meet in order for it not to become a health/safety hazard.  Quit putting the blame on yourself and direct it where it should be going........to the manufacturer.



I have not had a puff out of this stove for well over a month.  Personally I'm at the point I think @Mrpelletburner has a defective unit.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Medic21 said:


> I have not had a puff out of this stove for well over a month.  Personally I'm at the point I think @Mrpelletburner has a defective unit.



This is because you are "dancing it's dance".  One step out of place and look what happens.  Wood burning should not be as difficult as you guys are making it out to be with these things.  Like maple said above, most everything you guys are doing to make sure it doesn't fill the house with smoke should not be required.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

JRHAWK9 said:


> fill the house with smoke should not be required.



It is optional with every stove purchase [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> It is optional with every stove purchase [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]


Seems like it comes standard with these...


----------



## JRHAWK9

Mrpelletburner said:


> It is optional with every stove purchase



Glad you are keeping a sense of humor with all of this.    Although, not sure these issues  should be a laughing matter though.


----------



## brenndatomu

I was thinking of a nickname for these new FC/Shelter furnaces...1st up, "the Big Bang" series,
or, "Chitty chitty bang bang"


----------



## Turd Ferguson

I'm very close to requesting a refund. I just don't think it should be this difficult to burn wood like I have been experiencing. I should be able to get 4+ hours of burn time out of a unit and not be so sensitive to re-loads or anything like that...any recommendations on a different furnace that can be connected to duct work?


Also, I'd be curious to hear from someone who has purchased an FC1000 that HAS had success with the unit. Typical starting and reloading procedure, average run time, etc.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Is the cresol build up going in the right direction?

The following video is inside the new stove pipe after 3 days of burning. How does the cresol build up look?



Photos are of the rear of the stove's stove pipe.


----------



## Turd Ferguson

I don't confess to be an expert in the inspection of creosote build-up, but 3 days worth, that looks like a metric s-ton. Can't imagine what a month looks like.

I'll shoot some photos of my cleanout when I get home today from work. Keep in mind that I've only really had this thing running for 4-6 hours per day, not round-the-clock.





Mrpelletburner said:


> Is the cresol build up going in the right direction?
> 
> The following video is inside the new stove pipe after 3 days of burning. How does the cresol build up look?
> 
> 
> 
> Photos are of the rear of the stove's stove pipe.
> 
> View attachment 225316
> 
> 
> View attachment 225317
> 
> 
> View attachment 225318


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Turd Ferguson said:


> Also, I'd be curious to hear from someone who has purchased an FC1000 that HAS had success with the unit. Typical starting and reloading procedure, average run time, etc.



There is 1 person on this forum that purchased the FC1500. He posted a few times and has since vanished. Did send a PM to him and posted in his thread, nothing back yet.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Mrpelletburner said:


> There is 1 person on this forum that purchased the FC1500. He posted a few times and has since vanished. Did send a PM to him and posted in his thread, nothing back yet.



Hopefully NOT the case, but maybe he's not around anymore due to poorly designed wood furnace.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

This thread https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/shelter-wood-furnace-upgrade-improvement.166340/#post-2236902

@KvnSwan is the person


----------



## brenndatomu

Turd Ferguson said:


> ...any recommendations on a different furnace that can be connected to duct work?


For the money I think it would be hard to beat a Drolet Tundra II...


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Is the cresol build up going in the right direction?
> 
> The following video is inside the new stove pipe after 3 days of burning. How does the cresol build up look?


Was the pipe clean 3 days ago?
That's a lot of creosote (not cresol...whatever that is) in 3 days. The only improvement I see is the creosote is dryer looking than that wet gooey looking mess there before...but in reality that may just mean the pipe got hotter at some point in the burn...hard to say for sure. Could mean there has been a slight improvement, could mean you just got close to a chimney fire.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Regarding cleaning the flue/stove pipe.. would you recommend the SootEater?


----------



## brenndatomu

I like mine, but I am also only cleaning light fluffy soot.
If you have that black gooey creosote like before I don't think it will do much...the stuff you have in there now...it may take a good bit of that off...but I wonder what things look like at the upper end of the chimney...I'd bet it is still pretty scary looking


----------



## Turd Ferguson

brenndatomu said:


> I like mine, but I am also only cleaning light fluffy soot.
> If you have that black gooey creosote like before I don't think it will do much...the stuff you have in there now...it may take a good bit of that off...but I wonder what things look like at the upper end of the chimney...I'd bet it is still pretty scary looking


I checked mine out last night (oddly enough, ran out of fuel in my lighter so no fire last night), and found that I have a similar level of creosote in my pipes.

Decisions, decisions... don't know if it's worth it at this point (end of heating season) to send this thing back.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Turd Ferguson said:


> Decisions, decisions... don't know if it's worth it at this point (end of heating season) to send this thing back.



This is the ideal time to do so.  You won't be needing it in another month or so.  You then will have the whole summer to find a formidable replacement.


----------



## brenndatomu

Turd Ferguson said:


> Decisions, decisions... don't know if it's worth it at this point (end of heating season) to send this thing back.


What @JRHAWK9  said.
I already said my 2 cents as far as a replacement unit...but I also wanted to say, if you can't decide on a replacement, I think I would snatch up a cheap old school wood furnace off CL rather than put up with another winter of babysitting that backfiring POS!


----------



## DoubleB

Turd Ferguson said:


> any recommendations on a different furnace that can be connected to duct work?



I just noticed this Kuuma for sale on CL, I'd grab it quick if it were big enough for my house and I wasn't so busy.  You're probably not going to drive to WI from MA, but who knows what kind of deal you can find if you keep your eyes open.

(@JRHAWK9  says it's a VF200 which is the smaller heat output.)


----------



## Mrpelletburner

HY-C has stopped responding.. seems as if someone is always out of the office or on vacation now.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Mrpelletburner said:


> HY-C has stopped responding.. seems as if someone is always out of the office or on vacation now.



Did you pay by CC??  Dispute the charge and claim faulty item.  Let the place you bought it from take it up with the juice guys.


----------



## maple1

Mrpelletburner said:


> HY-C has stopped responding.. seems as if someone is always out of the office or on vacation now.



That's too bad. Seems like they had lots of opportunity to make things right.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Man... had a good run of burning, then last night "Puff"! The stove had been operating great for a few days, not sure why things when off the rails again. Needless to say, I didn't sleep last night.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> The stove had been operating great for a few days


What changed?


----------



## Mrpelletburner

When I reloaded this time, the" amount" of hot ambers was not the same as the prior fills, as I had been gone all day and the wife will not touch the "kaboom" stove. So to jump start things, I re-loaded in 2 stages. Stage 1, add two layers of splits and leave the load and ash door open a crack 1/8". After 15mins, with the one layer chared and a higher box temp, I finish loading to the top. My thought was that the first layer should have been enough to help fire up the 2nd load. 

If you watch the time-lapse video, the digital readout (top number flue, bottom fire box surface prob) does confirm that the fire did take off. However, at some point during this time, the stove went into idle mode. Perhaps idle mode happened too soon, resulting in an increase of unburned gasses.

The flip side of just loading and closing the door, it can take forever for the fire to catch.


----------



## maple1

Mrpelletburner said:


> When I reloaded this time, the" amount" of hot ambers was not the same as the prior fills, as I had been gone all day and the wife will not touch the "kaboom" stove. So to jump start things, I re-loaded in 2 stages. Stage 1, add two layers of splits and leave the load and ash door open a crack 1/8". After 15mins, with the one layer chared and a higher box temp, I finish loading to the top. My thought was that the first layer should have been enough to help fire up the 2nd load.
> 
> If you watch the time-lapse video, the digital readout (top number flue, bottom fire box surface prob) does confirm that the fire did take off. However, at some point during this time, the stove went into idle mode. Perhaps idle mode happened too soon, resulting in an increase of unburned gasses.
> 
> The flip side of just loading and closing the door, it can take forever for the fire to catch.



It shouldn't really have to 'catch' though, on a reload. As long as there are some coals there, it should start smoldering immediately, and the smoke/gasses that the smoldering makes should get burned off in secondary combustion. Unless it has gone pretty cold, in which case yes it might take longer to get everything established. But certainly not 'forever'. Or at least that's how a properly designed unit should burn. The primary fire will slowly build up some, while the secondary burns away.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Just don't think there is still secondary combustion when reloading.


----------



## Medic21

There is the whole problem with this stove.  The secondary combustion is almost nonexistent unless it is pushed to the extreme. By closing down the air intake there is almost no airflow when it's just cruising.

Yes, if it's hot when reloaded with the blower running it will take off on its own.


----------



## brenndatomu

Medic21 said:


> By closing down the air intake there is almost no airflow when it's just cruising.


Ageed. 
And what airflow there still is, short circuits out the first couple primary air holes. Why would it meander its way clear up to the secondary air channel, then squeeze its way out those tiny holes, when it can go right out the first big hole it can find!?


----------



## JRHAWK9

maple1 said:


> It shouldn't really have to 'catch' though, on a reload. As long as there are some coals there, it should start smoldering immediately, and the smoke/gasses that the smoldering makes should get burned off in secondary combustion. Unless it has gone pretty cold, in which case yes it might take longer to get everything established. But certainly not 'forever'. Or at least that's how a properly designed unit should burn. The primary fire will slowly build up some, while the secondary burns away.



yep!

hell, I've been noticing secondary combustion already within 5-10 minutes of lighting a fire with a luke warm firebox.  Having DRY wood and a properly designed furnace is nice!


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> yep!
> 
> hell, I've been noticing secondary combustion already within 5-10 minutes of lighting a fire with a luke warm firebox.  Having DRY wood and a properly designed furnace is nice!


And that's 4.5 - 9.5 minutes after closing the firebox door and going back upstairs, right?!


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> And that's 4.5 - 9.5 minutes after closing the firebox door and going back upstairs, right?!



  exactly!


----------



## KC Matt

First, I wish you and your family the best of luck.  With that death trap running in your house, you need all the luck you can get.  Second, I can't believe you are still running that thing.  Third, I can't believe the manufacturer is walking away from this unit.  Fourth, I can't believe how hard you guys have to work and how perfect conditions have to be in order to use this POS furnace!  I would demand a refund.

I have an old Tundra I and it's 1000x better than what you have.  Yes, I added controllers, but it was worth it.  The furnace works flawlessly and I have spent far less time (and probably money) than you have and you are nowhere near a workable solution.  Cut that POS loose before it kills you!


----------



## BoiledOver

This thread had become an eyesore long ago.

Just get the Kuuma and be done with it. See the linked thread. Even if you can't get the voucher, just do it! Then take what ever you can squeeze from the old stove manufacturer. Imagine the stress reduction and regained time for other daily considerations. Material things can be replaced but time and humans cannot.

A snapshot from the American Lung Association website:


----------



## Wood1Dennis

JRHAWK9 said:


> Just because you didn't happen to jump through hoop A on the way to hoop B while crossing road C before meeting road D doesn't mean you did anything wrong.  Any wood furnace which makes it to market should not have a very specific set of prerequisites one must meet in order for it not to become a health/safety hazard.  Quit putting the blame on yourself and direct it where it should be going........to the manufacturer.



Frankly MrPB I am amazed that you are still working with this unit. I would have given up a long time ago.

I think about this string every time I fire my stove up. During the shoulder season like this it usually goes something like this. Stir up the coals and move them to the middle of the firebox. Wait 1 min. for them to get hot. Add wood, two larger pieces on the outside, smalls or kindling on the coals, some bigger pieces as needed. Open the damper and close the door. Wait for a min. or two for the coals to ignite the kindling. If there are a lot of coals she might be going almost right away, not so many and I may have to start a new fire with newspaper. Within a min. or two the secondaries are burning & the firebox clears up. In a few minutes the fire is gong strong I close the intake down, adjust it a little and she is cruising along for many hours. Easy, peasy. A pleasure to work with. Every time.

I burn wood to save money, sure. But I also enjoy the whole process. Getting out in the woods to cut, split, stack is a hobby. But so is firing up the furnace on a cold morning. Watching the fire take, feeling the heat. It is relaxing and soothing to me. That is a part of the wood burning process that I hope you discover. It seems as if it may not be possible with your stove. Way to much hassle.


----------



## brenndatomu

Well written! ^ ^ ^ You need to post here more often @Wood1Dennis !


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Reason why I continue to burn the stove is so HY-C can't come back and say I didn't try something.

HY-C's latest suggestion is to install a return air supply vs depending on having the basement door wide open. Not sure if the thought process is to return warm air or to eliminate any negative pressure. Frankly I am tired of being jerked around and random follow ups and empty promises of a working stove.

I hope anyone thinking about purchasing any HY-C furnace reads this thread and runs the other direction. Yes, they have folks answer the phone, however the direction you receive is always something new.

Let me be clear.... It is the start up 1-4 hour period and reload/recovery process that SUCKS WHEN and ONLY WHEN the stove hits a good operational temperature does the stove burn correctly with the inductor blower slider opened 3/8". However the start and reload just leads to a TON of smoke and crazy creosote build up, at least for myself.

The following videos illustrate the painful starting process and how the fire gets choked when shutting the doors.


----------



## JRHAWK9

BoiledOver said:


> This thread had become an eyesore long ago.
> 
> Just get the Kuuma and be done with it. See the linked thread. Even if you can't get the voucher, just do it! Then take what ever you can squeeze from the old stove manufacturer. Imagine the stress reduction and regained time for other daily considerations. Material things can be replaced but time and humans cannot.
> 
> A snapshot from the American Lung Association website:
> 
> View attachment 225773



I guess the old adage of, "you can lead a horse to water but can't force him to drink" comes to mind about right now.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

@JRHAWK9 We don't qualify as our household income is above what is outlined.


----------



## maple1

Not sure what that means. 'Return air' = do they mean the air that is being heated & sent to the house, or combustion air? Either way, your baro readings throw that out the window - it would seem to me. They are just yanking you around more.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Return air from the house


----------



## brenndatomu

Yup...Chain < = > Yank

If you have your basement door wide open, this will do nothing, zero, zilch, nada.
Plus you have dispelled the negative pressure thing with an open window.
I think there are a dozen or so people here on Hearth that could design circles around these...
...yahoos at HY-C.





Prior to this I would have considered Firechief/Shelter to be a mid range/upper end furnace...not no mo!!


----------



## brenndatomu

IMO, the more time goes by, the more likely they are gonna tell you to pound salt when you say you want off this merry-go-round


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> IMO, the more time goes by, the more likely they are gonna tell you to pound salt when you say you want off this merry-go-round



I'm sure that's why they have him chasing his tail.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Ok I have had enough of playing along... HY-C requested photos of a fresh split of wood, same request that was made back on March 16th. So I send the same exact photos as I did on the 16th and was immediately told that the photos did not appear to be the same log and to re-take photos. IMO the wood I was burning in March, is far more relevant then wood I am bringing in the day I am burning as my supply in the basement has been used.


----------



## brenndatomu




----------



## Medic21

BoiledOver said:


> This thread had become an eyesore long ago.
> 
> View attachment 225773



I have to agree.  While not perfect I have began to dial this thing in and have tried to offer advice.  I am starting to be happy with it, getting 10-12 hour burn times in 30 degree weather.  I attribute the issues I have had as I have never had a EPA stove and it burns different.  

After I saw your last post @Mrpelletburner where you went and threw up the communication between yourself and company reps trying to help you out I have to say something.  That would be like you calling 911 for a fire and when I show up you know better than me in how to extinguish said fire.  

I have told you to quit being a slave to a thermometer.  The only one you need to see is the flue temp and that is only there as a safety.  You were burning way too cool, I did too at first and had issues.  I see you have started to go hotter with better results.  My time in the Military taught me the definition of insanity as doing the same thing the same way expecting different results.  You need to change something up.  Hotter burns, different wood.  Your at a huge disadvantage from me as I cut mine and know what I got.  A cold air return may be the difference. Yes, I know you keep the door open to the basement but, just as with firefighting, introducing a negative pressure from a fan in a room will at the bare minimum create a draw for a little bit in the direct area.  The fan is 3 feet away from you air intake.

Your kinda lucky that I'm not your rep with the last post.  After agreeing to spend a few hundred dollars to a grand, you get defiant online.  I would have washed my hands and told you to take it up with where you bought it.

The problems I still have are a smoke smell when the blower kicks in with the inducer off.  And a lower draft with different winds.  Hoping to fix those this summer with a taller stack and a cold air return.  If it doesn't fix those issues the thing will go in the shop and I'll start over in the house.  It is what it is.  If someone came to me today I would not recommend this product as a primary heat source.  I will not bash someone trying to help me.


----------



## brenndatomu

Medic21 said:


> I will not bash someone trying to help me.


Are they? At this point I personally think they are just yankin his chain waiting for spring to come, then this fall it is almost a year later, and its just sorry about your luck then...SOL.
I've personally dealt with 3 different wood furnace manufactures dealing with problems...2 of them went above and beyond to help me, and the 3rd was adequately helpful...waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than what it sounds like he's getting here.


----------



## Medic21

brenndatomu said:


> Are they? At this point I personally think they are just yankin his chain waiting for spring to come, then this fall it is almost a year later, and its just sorry about your luck then...SOL.
> I've personally dealt with 3 different wood furnace manufactures dealing with problems...2 of them went above and beyond to help me, and the 3rd was adequately helpful...waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than what it sounds like he's getting here.



They are willing to spend their money to install a cold air return.  That's more help than most companies would ever give.  

I have had very different interactions with them than he has.  I listened to their suggestions and have been able to get it burning fairly well.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

@Medic21 - I am not being a slave to the temps. Have followed their instructions to the “T”, which I have well documented. Have changed my setup 3 times, including rotating the stove. Was suggested to install a bio damper (remember how that went)? What keeps happening is back puffing from the stove pipe, hours after the stove has started. 

Over a week ago it was stated that they would pay for a HVAC person to install a return duct. At that time they only asked if I could recommend someone and if they had the ok. Didn’t have anyone to recommend and they had the green light. A week goes by and they again ask if I have someone to recommend and I had yet to give the green light. Then all of a sudden before they do anything they want photos of a split of wood with the moisture measured. I did this same exercise back on March 16th and sent the photos. I was then told they don’t believe the photos and to do the test again. 

Let me repeat that... they don’t believe the photos, even though I included the meta data time stamps and can highlight the split marks. Was told time stamps are to advanced of a technology. WTF

I am sorry I have spent a ton of time providing videos, photos and other documentation. I have dealt with smoke detectors going off in the middle of the night. Explosions from the stove pipe after following their suggestions.

So please pardon my frustration. Glad that things are working for you and your suggestions have been help. However after all the crap I have been through, in no way should HY-C say they don’t believe me.

At this point I just want a refund!


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> At this point I _deserve_ a refund!


Fixed it for ya...


----------



## brenndatomu

Medic21 said:


> They are willing to spend their money to install a cold air return


Didn't know about that lil detail...I guess that's something...don't think it will help, but its more than just excuses, or playing the blame game.


Mrpelletburner said:


> they want photos of a split of wood with the moisture measured. I did this same exercise back on March 16th and sent the photos. I was then told they don’t believe the photos and to do the test again.


This is the one issue I'm not fully satisfied has been addressed is the wet wood possibility. Those moisture meters are not fool proof. And if this was any other stove with a proven track record, I'd say it is a wet wood problem...but in this case I still say poor design, and then the wood could be a contributing factor...maybe.


----------



## woodey

With all the time and $$$$  Mr.PB has put into this stove it reminds me of a slogan from a window manufacturer--"Only a rich man can afford cheap windows."


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Definitely have a whole new view of why stoves cost X $$.


----------



## DoubleB

@Medic21 , I believe you if you are getting yours to work better.  However...

@Mrpelletburner , you have done an inordinate amount of work to try to get it to work safely and overcome a dangerous situation.  You should be able to work out a refund for either one of those failing, not to mention both.  If this thing can't be solved with a simple fix, then it's going to be a problem for countless others.  Continue being polite, while ratcheting up and holding firm to the bottom line of a refund.  Ask them to self-impose a deadline, and don't take no for that answer.  Make them commit to a way they can make things right if they don't meet their deadlines.  Get some clout behind you...the retailer, the fire marshal, your insurance company, or--I hate to even say this--one of them opportunistic lawyer sharks that I typically wish didn't exist. 

Also, your success in dealing with these guys fairly and squarely, and firmly, will help you in more situations in life bound to come.  

You're not going to be able to get much more technical help from this forum, due to both lack of new ideas and lack of remaining burning season.

You can do it!  We're all cheering for you!


----------



## JRHAWK9

Medic21 said:


> I have to agree.  While not perfect I have began to dial this thing in and have tried to offer advice.  I am starting to be happy with it, getting 10-12 hour burn times in 30 degree weather.  I attribute the issues I have had as I have never had a EPA stove and it burns different.
> 
> After I saw your last post @Mrpelletburner where you went and threw up the communication between yourself and company reps trying to help you out I have to say something.  That would be like you calling 911 for a fire and when I show up you know better than me in how to extinguish said fire.
> 
> I have told you to quit being a slave to a thermometer.  The only one you need to see is the flue temp and that is only there as a safety.  You were burning way too cool, I did too at first and had issues.  I see you have started to go hotter with better results.  My time in the Military taught me the definition of insanity as doing the same thing the same way expecting different results.  You need to change something up.  Hotter burns, different wood.  Your at a huge disadvantage from me as I cut mine and know what I got.  A cold air return may be the difference. Yes, I know you keep the door open to the basement but, just as with firefighting, introducing a negative pressure from a fan in a room will at the bare minimum create a draw for a little bit in the direct area.  The fan is 3 feet away from you air intake.
> 
> Your kinda lucky that I'm not your rep with the last post.  After agreeing to spend a few hundred dollars to a grand, you get defiant online.  I would have washed my hands and told you to take it up with where you bought it.
> 
> The problems I still have are a smoke smell when the blower kicks in with the inducer off.  And a lower draft with different winds.  Hoping to fix those this summer with a taller stack and a cold air return.  If it doesn't fix those issues the thing will go in the shop and I'll start over in the house.  It is what it is.  If someone came to me today I would not recommend this product as a primary heat source.  I will not bash someone trying to help me.




I'm glad you solved the wood burning equivalent of the Rubik's cube.    However one should not have to do such a thing to burn wood safely...period.


----------



## Medic21

JRHAWK9 said:


> I'm glad you solved the wood burning equivalent of the Rubik's cube.    However one should not have to do such a thing to burn wood safely...period.



Honestly, all the problems I had were due to not burning this stove hot enough.  I'm purchasing another furnace.  Which one will end up in the shop is TBD.  I regret not putting the Hitzer in my basement for the ability to burn coal and I may swap it based on that.

Once I get done burning and clean it out for the last time I'll pull all my notes and give a very long review if this in other places.  There is still no online reviews for these that I have found.


----------



## Medic21

For the record, without some kind of update to this thing in supplying secondary air via its own channel, I will not recommend it to anyone.  

I know HY-C personnel are viewing this thread and I will state to them they have half a good furnace.  They need to engineer an update that adds secondary air to keep and hold a secondary burn that does not use a one air inlet.  When the draft comes in the front three inches how do they think secondary air will bypass the from holes and travel to an area where it has to reverse course to go up the flue.  Simple common sense should say that. 

Either that or everything we know about flowpaths in fighting fire is bullshit.  Air follows the path of least resistance.


----------



## laynes69

Not to mention when you are burning "hot enough", the outer portion around the door will glow. That enough would make it a no for me! Every system has variables, but that furnace makes things much harder and less desirable.


----------



## Medic21

laynes69 said:


> Not to mention when you are burning "hot enough", the outer portion around the door will glow. That enough would make it a no for me! Every system has variables, but that furnace makes things much harder and less desirable.



Actually, if you use the correct length of wood and push it all the way back it does not do that very often at all.


----------



## woodey

Medic21 said:


> Actually, if you use the correct length of wood and push it all the way back it does not do that very often at all.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Does  "correct length"  refer to the manufacturers suggested length or what you feel is the safest for you to use?


----------



## brenndatomu

Medic21 said:


> I'm purchasing another furnace


Any idea what you will get?


Medic21 said:


> Actually, if you use the correct length of wood and push it all the way back it does not do that very often at all.


If that happened once, and it was not my own fault, and/or there was a problem with the furnace (like a leaky door gasket) then that would be one too many times for me.


----------



## Medic21

woodey said:


> Does  "correct length"  refer to the manufacturers suggested length or what you feel is the safest for you to use?



A little of both.  Manufacture says 20". I have anything from 18"-24".  22 and shorter I have zero problems unless I load all ash, that stuff burns hot.


----------



## Medic21

brenndatomu said:


> Any idea what you will get?



Hitzer furnace made locally. Old school coal/wood furnace.  A lot of the Amish have the same model in a stove here so it is a very proven unit.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Medic21 said:


> A little of both.  Manufacture says 20". I have anything from 18"-24".  22 and shorter I have zero problems unless I load all ash, that stuff burns hot.



oh, come on, with this furnace you probably need to cut it within a 16th of an inch of it's "sweet spot" in order for it to "behave", don'tcha?


----------



## brenndatomu

Medic21 said:


> Hitzer furnace made locally. Old school coal/wood furnace.  A lot of the Amish have the same model in a stove here so it is a very proven unit.
> 
> View attachment 225917


Oh, I guess I misread your earlier post about the Hitzer...I thought you already had one in the garage and were thinking of switching the places of the two furnaces.
Didn't realize those were made in Ind. either, though they came from PA...


----------



## JRHAWK9

Medic21 said:


> Hitzer furnace made locally. Old school coal/wood furnace.  A lot of the Amish have the same model in a stove here so it is a very proven unit.
> 
> View attachment 225917



Not sure how they can legally sell it.....unless they are exempt because they are Amish.


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> Not sure how they can legally sell it.....unless they are exempt because they are Amish.


Probably only marketed as a coal furnace now...I've seen some other old school furnaces doing that too


----------



## Medic21

brenndatomu said:


> Oh, I guess I misread your earlier post about the Hitzer...I thought you already had one in the garage and were thinking of switching the places of the two furnaces.
> Didn't realize those were made in Ind. either, though they came from PA...



Berne, IN, local family business.  They are sold as coal only.  I've priced the anthracite coal and it actually decently priced.  I was going to purchase one last year till I found this.  About the same price and I regret that now.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Medic21 said:


> If you ask the Amish they think they are exempt from everything, hiding behind a damn religion...



I hear ya.....my beef with religion is for a different forum though...


----------



## brenndatomu

Medic21 said:


> If you ask the Amish they think they are exempt from everything, hiding behind a damn religion...


Yup, not appropriate here


----------



## Mojappa

^^^ lol


----------



## brenndatomu

Mojappa said:


> ^^^ lol


Whats so funny?


----------



## Medic21

brenndatomu said:


> Yup, not appropriate here



Wow, sorry.  Kinda glad I didn't say what I really think...


----------



## Mojappa

brenndatomu said:


> Whats so funny?


I was laughing at the Amish joke three posts above mine, hence the three up carrots (arrows)


----------



## maple1

One dumb needless comment and a decent thread goes into the toilet....


----------



## Mojappa

It’s consumed about 6 of the 476 posts in this thread, I’m pretty sure the thread will survive.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mojappa said:


> It’s consumed about 6 of the 476 posts in this thread, I’m pretty sure the thread will survive.


Ummm....yeah, you're new here aren't you...threads have been locked up for less


----------



## Mojappa

Right on, I'll just laugh to myself then. Back to Puff the Magic Smoke Dragon


----------



## Medic21

maple1 said:


> One dumb needless comment and a decent thread goes into the toilet....



I fixed it. Sorry guys, I guess I have a very different sense of humor.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mojappa said:


> Back to Puff the Magic Smoke Dragon


Now _that's_ funny!


----------



## JRHAWK9

maple1 said:


> One dumb needless comment and a decent thread goes into the toilet....



nah, not in the least.  The Octo Cooler furnace still sucks as much as it did before any of the non-PC comments were made.


----------



## maple1

Medic21 said:


> I fixed it. Sorry guys, I guess I have a very different sense of humor.



It's not really that I myself find it personally offensive or something like that - it's just that it's the kind of thing that gets threads shut down on here. And this one has been one of the more epic ones on here - that I would hope would yet see some sort of resolution for the OP and maybe other users.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

My 2 cents. I believe there is a combination of things going on here. 1st, i am willing to bet your wood IS on the wet side. 2nd, from the pics of the flue, there is no way there is enough draft unless chimney is hot. lastly design of unit has flaws. I think medic1 may be having better luck because his wood is probably drier and he probably has better draft. So he still has design issues that are not except-able, but not as glaring as yours. Wet wood needs more air, even with good draft. Low draft with the door open will allow more air in the chamber to burn. Your puff backs are probably coming from your wood making a lot of wet smoke and when things get hot or you get a wind gust, or a high ambient pressure, it ignites making a boom. My unit is the easiest to use ever, but if I have a cold unit, cold chimney, and not freezing weather, then load wet wood, I will have issues until the unit and chimney get hot. It is what it is "thermo dynamics" again, just my 2 cents.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

These 2 photos are from Monday night. 16” splits, placed to the back of the stove, filled to the top. Draft blower slider was set to the factory opening.

This wood had the most moisture content (~30%) of any of the wood I had burned all year as I had just brought it in. I had zero issues with back puffs for the 2 days of burning. Basically reloaded, closed he door and didn’t check on the fire until hours after. Temperatures were in the high 20’s to high 30’s.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

30% because you just brought it in? It should be much less than that before its brought in. So wet wood is a yes. Now the question is why did it work well the last 2 days with wet wood and poor draft. Lucky?


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Assuming the higher moisture content because I was grabbing wood that was not under a tarp and it had been rain/snow the day before.

Not sure regarding not back puffing... Started cold, I had filled the box and started from the top vs starting then filling the stove. 

In order for the fire to take (cold stove), I had to leave both doors open for roughly a 1/2hr for the fire to take and not be chocked off (with dry wood). When I refilled the stove, I had to use wood that I had just brought in as I am no longer storing wood in the basement.

People can point to wet wood till the cows come home, however when I had the least success is when I was burning wood that had been in my wood shed for 2 ½ years, if that was not seasoned, I am not sure what is seasoned. If I bring in a load and let it sit for a couple of days, the wood reaches a ambient temperature and has a moisture content of ~23%.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

23% is still not dry wood. Also i woud like to be clear, I did say what your videos showed was what wet wood looked like. Was not accusing you of wet wood. But 30%, now 23% I am saying that 1/3 of your issue IS the wood. Also, are you burning the same type of wood? Some wood dries in a year, others like oak takes 2 or more to dry. Maybe thats why sometimes it doesn't happen. Although you did say ash made it happen and thats the fastest drier. Maybe its the opposite? The wetter the wood the better the burn. I know pine burns hot and fast but needs more air. Try burning 2X4's, or bio bricks, see what happens. Where in mass are you? If its not to far I could come take a look. I know a little bit about heating appliances, and wood heat.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

P.s  That glowing red is BAD. Was the combustion air fan on? Could the combustion fan air sensor just be off?


----------



## maple1

Could it be that drier wood off gasses moreso too much in the primary for the secondary to handle? It sure looked like the secondary was under supplied with air at various points in this thread. That imbalance coming from design shortfall. 

(Or the primary is over supplied)


----------



## STIHLY DAN

That is a possibility. I am thinking the puff back has something to do with the combustion fan shutting down creating an imbalance, or not starting at the right time. Most certainly from alot of off gas, then an introduction of air.


----------



## Medic21

maple1 said:


> Could it be that drier wood off gasses moreso too much in the primary for the secondary to handle? It sure looked like the secondary was under supplied with air at various points in this thread. That imbalance coming from design shortfall.
> 
> (Or the primary is over supplied)



100% correct the primary is over supplied in this furnace.  It is impossible for it to burn from the top down as wood stoves should.  It burns frontbto back.  If you turn the blower on and open the slide 95% of the air blows right at the spots the glow red.  I tend to load the right side to the top and keep the left side down a split or two to keep that from happening.  

Wood to dry has been a problem for me.  I have some that was left in the barn at mom and dads I split as a teenager.  It puffed bad when I loaded the stove full with it.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Medic21 said:


> It is impossible for it to burn from the top down as wood stoves should.  It burns front to back.



I know of a furnace actually designed to burn like this and it does it quite well.


----------



## DoubleB

Mrpelletburner said:


> I was burning wood that had been in my wood shed for 2 ½ years, if that was not seasoned, I am not sure what is seasoned.



Also, IIRC, your wood shed has 3 closed sides, which is great to store dry wood but not great for drying wet wood.  So I wouldn't assume it's dry due to elapsed time.


----------



## brenndatomu

Medic21 said:


> It is impossible for it to burn from the top down as wood stoves should.


Kuuma works exactly this way...Caddy, Tundra, Max Caddy, HeatPro all burn front to back too...although they have a little more top down action mixed in with that than the Kuumas do...


DoubleB said:


> Also, IIRC, your wood shed has 3 closed sides, which is great to store dry wood but not great for drying wet wood.  So I wouldn't assume it's dry due to elapsed time.


Bingo!!

I kinda hafta agree with both sides here...this unit needs DRY wood to burn properly just like any other stove, but the CRAPPY secondary air design can't deal with the heavy off-gassing of dry wood


----------



## woodey

laynes69 said:


> Not to mention when you are burning "hot enough", the outer portion around the door will glow. That enough would make it a no for me! Every system has variables, but that furnace makes things much harder and less desirable.


 
 Hi laynes,  off topic here but what the heck- I put my gourd rack up today and was reminded of a post I came across a few years ago as I was researching wood furnaces. I  did a search for purple martins today and found a post from you a few years back. Have you had any luck  getting birds at your site? I had a small colony of  12 nesting pairs here until a May snow  storm  14- 15 years ago wiped them out. I can attract some in here every year but have not been  able to get a pair to stay and nest. If you are still trying with no success  I may be able to give you a few tips to entice them to your site.  Whether or not  they stay  who  knows but worth a try. Let me know.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

STIHLY DAN said:


> P.s  That glowing red is BAD. Was the combustion air fan on? Could the combustion fan air sensor just be off?



The inducer blower was not running. Also, the stove is a very basic stove, zero controls or sensors.

When this stove does take off, it heats the house quick. I find it takes anywhere from 1 ½ to 2 ¼ hours after reloading for the stove to take off. Once it does, the temperature spikes for about 15 mins, then rolls back to 550 - 650 for several hours.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Mrpelletburner said:


> The inducer blower was not running. Also, the stove is a very basic stove, zero controls or sensors.
> 
> When this stove does take off, it heats the house quick. I find it takes anywhere from 1 ½ to 2 ¼ hours after reloading for the stove to take off. Once it does, the temperature spikes for about 15 mins, then rolls back to 550 - 650 for several hours.


What turns the combustion air on? T-stat? 1 1/2 to 2 1/4 hours before take off again sounds like wet wood. Takes that much time to boil the water off.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

The stove is shipped with a wall mounted thermostat, which is mounted next to the main floor thermostat.

I believe wet wood will have a sizzling sound when burning, where you can see the water boiling at the ends of the splits. I can assure you that this has not been the case. Perhaps the wood can still have a high moisture content and not see the moisture boil at the split ends?

So the stove is really basic, primary and secondary air inlet is shared and a 50 cfm inducer blower with a slide flap. The 3/8” opening is the only air that is allowed, even when the inducer blower is running. 

I believe the concept of the stove is a fairly simple design. As the stove temperature increases, so does the flue temperature which pulls a strong draft, air into the inducer slide opening. The air flow SHOULD either pull the smoke and exit out of the chimney or if hot enough, burn the secondary gases. 

Experience tells me that the stove is going to be at its coolest point either when starting or reloading, therefore not the strongest draft.

IMO the lack of primary air, restricted by the slider, allows for smoke to build up to much and chokes the fire. This is why I believe it takes so long for the fire to recover without a really hot bed of ambers to help recover the fire. Further, when reloading, the splits placed on the hot ambers, seem to cool the hot ambers which also chokes out the fire.

Yes, splits with a high moisture content will amplify the choking affect.

Now I believe from a prior posting, @Medic21 opens the inducer slider when starting and/or reloading to help during the recovery time. In my case, I don’t open the slider to increase the air flow, leaving it at 3/8” opened. Which is perhaps why we have had different results, we also burn different wood.

Fire Chief has 2 other indoor models, which both a have auto draft inlets and the primary/secondary air inlets are NOT shared. 

I would in a heartbeat trade in this stove for the FC-1500 as I believe that stove would be more forgiving. However the initial person I spoke to at HY-C suggested that the FC-1000 would satisfy my application. At the time I didn’t fully understand the differences between the 3 models and now that I do, I would of gone the other route.

If you look at all the other EPA stoves on the market, I believe (please correct me if I am incorrect) they all have some sort of primary or secondary air adjustment. This stove doesn’t have any adjustments, which means your setup has to be perfect in order to operate as advertised.

I am no way suggesting this stove is junk, just for myself, I have experienced to many issues and would like a refund or some form of compensation.

I understand that most are tire of this thread as it has become stale pages ago. However I do appreciate the feedback, suggestions, and comments from everyone! I have learned a ton in a short period of time thanks to the folks on this form.


----------



## blades

Yes on High moisture and not see boiling on ends.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Perhaps the wood can still have a high moisture content and not see the moisture boil at the split ends?


Yes.


Mrpelletburner said:


> IMO the lack of primary air, restricted by the slider, allows for smoke to build up to much and chokes the fire.


The lack of _separate secondary_ air allows too much primary fire, and not enough oxygen left for the secondary burn to occur.


Mrpelletburner said:


> Yes, splits with a high moisture content will amplify the choking affect


Yep.


Mrpelletburner said:


> If you look at all the other EPA stoves on the market, I believe (please correct me if I am incorrect) they all have some sort of primary or secondary air adjustment


All have primary, most have no adjustment on the secondary air...wide open all the time. The are a scant few that adjust the primary and secondary together with a linkage arrangement (separate air passages, common adjustment lever) but these are wood stoves, not furnaces.


Mrpelletburner said:


> I am no way suggesting this stove is junk


I AM! At least until they separate the primary and secondary air passages, this model will be a thorn in their sides, and is not safe to sell.


Mrpelletburner said:


> I have experienced to many issues and would like a refund or some form of compensation.


And you should! You have bent over backwards for these people! You should be DEMANDING a refund! I have only had to threaten a company with a lawyer once, but it worked (rental car agency tried to rip me off) I would have lost money getting a lawyer most likely, but that wasn't the point...the point was you overcharged me and you will NOT get away with it! Didn't matter if it was the court system, or social media, they were gonna regret pulling this lil stunt on me...fortunately they made things right before it escalated even more. But I still won't use them again!
If it were me, I'd start by making them aware I want my money refunded, and if they refuse, you will be getting a lawyer, which will then be asking for his fee, plus compensation for your time and trouble too. If nothing happens then, I think I'd post a link to this thread on every social media site and wood burning forum that you can find, also make the retailer aware of the problems too, post a review on their site with a link here. Then I would start calling various people in the insurance industry...anybody that may be interested in an unsafe product. Underwriters Laboratory's? (it is UL listed, yes?) EPA...how the heck did this thing ever pass the 2017 emissions test anyways?! I guarantee it won't pass the 2020 test! At least it will only be around for 3 years anyways.
Go through this thread and use that to help gather up all your facts about how things have transpired here...be well prepared for any questions that someone may have for you...and details just add to your credibility too. All your videos are a big plus!
I'd do this now before it warms up and you move on to other things for the summer, time is not on your side here. And traffic on this site will begin to be pretty thin very soon, if not already. You will not get nearly as much help/advice over the summer.
My 2...err, 10 cents (legal advice costs more than wood stove advice ) on the matter.
Good luck, we're all pullin for ya!


----------



## maple1

*I believe wet wood will have a sizzling sound when burning, where you can see the water boiling at the ends of the splits. I can assure you that this has not been the case. Perhaps the wood can still have a high moisture content and not see the moisture boil at the split ends?*

Yes, it can, although in my experience, I have most always heard a sizzle when I put something with a high MC in.

*I believe the concept of the stove is a fairly simple design. As the stove temperature increases, so does the flue temperature which pulls a strong draft, air into the inducer slide opening. The air flow SHOULD either pull the smoke and exit out of the chimney or if hot enough, burn the secondary gases.

Experience tells me that the stove is going to be at its coolest point either when starting or reloading, therefore not the strongest draft.
*
Your barometric damper maintains steady draft (before it exploded),and the manometer readings showed that draft to be steady, and at spec, when the explosions were happening. Changing draft, or anything related to draft,  is IMO not an issue.

*IMO the lack of primary air, restricted by the slider, allows for smoke to build up to much and chokes the fire. This is why I believe it takes so long for the fire to recover without a really hot bed of ambers to help recover the fire. Further, when reloading, the splits placed on the hot ambers, seem to cool the hot ambers which also chokes out the fire.*

IMO the over abundance of primary air (not lack of), vs. what the secondary setup can process, is the problem. And also the cause of the glowing metal pics we have seen - those gave me the willies.

*I am no way suggesting this stove is junk, just for myself, I have experienced to many issues and would like a refund or some form of compensation.*

I think I would make that suggestion.


----------



## woodey

Mrpelletburner said:


> I believe the concept of the stove is a fairly simple design


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   I believe the concept of the stove is designed by fairly simple people.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Seems to me that you should operate this like the crappy tundra. When starting or reloading turn the t-stat up so the combustion air turns on. There is a link in the tundra forum of a kitchen timer to help. This will give combustion air until a hot fire is going which increases draft. This will also help if wet wood is present, It cant hurt to try.


----------



## brenndatomu

STIHLY DAN said:


> Seems to me that you should operate this like the crappy tundra. When starting or reloading turn the t-stat up so the combustion air turns on. There is a link in the tundra forum of a kitchen timer to help. This will give combustion air until a hot fire is going which increases draft. This will also help if wet wood is present, It cant hurt to try.



Hope Drolet doesn't try to sue you for defamation for comparing the Tundra to these things 
Tundra may have been a little rough around the edges the first couple model years...but at least they work well and burn pretty clean when set up right! Mine purrs like a kitten now...partially thanks to you and your blower speed control idea


----------



## Medic21

STIHLY DAN said:


> Seems to me that you should operate this like the crappy tundra. When starting or reloading turn the t-stat up so the combustion air turns on. There is a link in the tundra forum of a kitchen timer to help. This will give combustion air until a hot fire is going which increases draft. This will also help if wet wood is present, It cant hurt to try.



The instructions tell you to set the tstat to 90 when starting or reloading just for this purpose.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Medic21 said:


> The instructions tell you to set the tstat to 90 when starting or reloading just for this purpose.



@Medic21 Please don't take this as trying to prove anyone wrong, the last thing I am trying to do is piss off anyone. 

I just re-read the manual that was shipped with my unit to see if I misread the instructions. According to the online manual and the one shipped, the only time the manual states to set the tstat to 90 is only for the "first fire".  Also, according to the manual, when using the moisture meter, wood under 30% moisture content is acceptable.

As I recall, just about every back flash (puff from the stove pipe), the draft blower was running. Might have been every time, but would have to review my notes.

Another Interesting item the point out...  the manual never states if you should leave the load door open or close it when starting the fire (crumpled newspapers and dry kidling step).



> General Operation
> 
> Types of Wood to Use:
> We advise using only dry, seasoned hardwoods in your Fire Chief Furnace rather than high resin woods such as pine. Firewood should be cut at least one full season prior to the time of its intended use, for optimum heat output. Firewood should be stacked to provide a free flow of air between the logs, thus allowing more rapid seasoning of the wood. If wood is stored outdoors, it should be completely covered year round to protect it from moisture and exposure to the elements.
> 
> FUEL RECOMMENDATIONS: FC1000 – 20 inch maximum log length
> 
> Follow instructions included with the moisture meter that was supplied with this unit to make sure that you are using seasoned wood to achieve the cleanest burn and highest efficiency possible. When using the moisture meter, in addition to following the manufacturer’s instructions,* look for readings under 30% moisture content*. Also seasoned wood will be noticeably lighter weight than green wood, generally has darker ends with cracks or splits visible.
> 
> Use extreme caution when opening the door during operation, temperatures can exceed 300°F. Wait at least 10 seconds after releasing the latch, and then proceed to the fully open position. Opening the door in this manner is designed to eliminate the possibility of gaseous ignition. Heat resistant gloves are recommended when opening the fuel door, emptying the ash pan.





> First Fire:
> 
> *Set the wall thermostat to 90°F.*
> 
> Place several crumpled newspapers on the grate with some dry kindling layered on top of the papers, then ignite the newspaper. When the kindling is burning, add several small pieces of wood, allow wood to fully ignite. After about 20 minutes the fire should be established, allowing you to add more wood – do not overload which would smother the fire. Add more wood slowly, so the flames have time to engulf the fresh wood. Once the fire is burning and there is a glowing ember bed, set the wall thermostat to the desired home temperature.
> 
> Do not over-fire the furnace. Over-firing by overloading/over fueling the furnace causes the metal to superheat and expand, then cool rapidly, which causes cracking, therefore voiding the warranty. Over-firing or abuse can easily be determined upon inspection.
> 
> *It will take about 40 minutes to establish a bed of hot embers. Once you have achieved the hot ember bed, add larger pieces of firewood. Finally adjust the wall thermostat*. Ash pan must remain out of furnace during operation.


----------



## Medic21

Mrpelletburner said:


> @Medic21 Please don't take this as trying to prove anyone wrong, the last thing I am trying to do is piss off anyone.
> 
> I just re-read the manual that was shipped with my unit to see if I misread the instructions. According to the online manual and the one shipped, the only time the manual states to set the tstat to 90 is only for the "first fire".  Also, according to the manual, when using the moisture meter, wood under 30% moisture content is acceptable.
> 
> As I recall, just about every back flash (puff from the stove pipe), the draft blower was running. Might have been every time, but would have to review my notes.
> 
> Another Interesting item the point out...  the manual never states if you should leave the load door open or close it when starting the fire (crumpled newspapers and dry kidling step).




Why would any fire you start, whether cold or reloading, be any different from the first fire?

Some of this is common sense in my opinion.  Maybe we have came across the key as to why we are having a very different experience.

Regardless of what that manual says moisture content should never be higher than 20%.  I won't burn oak over 15%.  Again another difference.  

This stove is far from perfect but, it will work.


----------



## maple1

Medic21 said:


> Why would any fire you start, whether cold or reloading, be any different from the first fire?



I am taking the above instructions to mean first fire = cold start. And reload is a reload, on hot coals and a warm chimney. So they would have very different conditions - the stat being turned up being a need of the different conditions at cold start. So if you are also turning the stat up at a reload, that would be contrary to the operating instructions. Which in turn, seems to be meaning that the common sense approach mentioned above is clashing with the operating instructions or how it was designed & intended to be used - which seems to again point to shortcomings in the design of this rig, or at the very least shortcomings in the instructions for unexplained reasons. Like, maybe they didn't burn this thing very much before they started selling them?


----------



## maple1

Mrpelletburner said:


> @Medic21 Please don't take this as trying to prove anyone wrong, the last thing I am trying to do is piss off anyone.
> 
> I just re-read the manual that was shipped with my unit to see if I misread the instructions. According to the online manual and the one shipped, the only time the manual states to set the tstat to 90 is only for the "first fire".  Also, according to the manual, when using the moisture meter, wood under 30% moisture content is acceptable.
> 
> As I recall, just about every back flash (puff from the stove pipe), the draft blower was running. Might have been every time, but would have to review my notes.
> 
> Another Interesting item the point out...  the manual never states if you should leave the load door open or close it when starting the fire (crumpled newspapers and dry kidling step).



*Ash pan must remain out of furnace during operation.
*
That is the first time I have seen an instruction like that in a manual. Is that a common thing -  all you burners of other devices?


----------



## JRHAWK9

maple1 said:


> *Ash pan must remain out of furnace during operation.
> *
> That is the first time I have seen an instruction like that in a manual. Is that a common thing -  all you burners of other devices?




ah, that would be a no.


----------



## brenndatomu

maple1 said:


> *Ash pan must remain out of furnace during operation.
> *
> That is the first time I have seen an instruction like that in a manual. Is that a common thing -  all you burners of other devices?


First time for me too...


----------



## maple1

Sooooo, I wonder - would ash pan being in or out affect internal combustion air flow any? Thinking not much, or that it shouldn't - but hard to say with this rig, from way over here where I can't see it.

Aside from that - why would they want it out when burning? Since it seems I wasn't alone in my thoughts...


----------



## JRHAWK9

Medic21 said:


> Why would any fire you start, whether cold or reloading, be any different from the first fire?



When I load on a bed of coals I load the wood, close the door and walk away.  When I put wood in my -cold- Kuuma, close the door and walk away nothing happens.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

maple1 said:


> Sooooo, I wonder - would ash pan being in or out affect internal combustion air flow any? Thinking not much, or that it shouldn't - but hard to say with this rig, from way over here where I can't see it.
> 
> Aside from that - why would they want it out when burning? Since it seems I wasn't alone in my thoughts...



I really need to do a good into video of this stove. 

The ash pan area doesn't have an air inlet channel. Therefore I don't believe this is any impact to internal combustion. Assuming the reason to remove the ash pan is so it does't warp during stove use, the internal temps can reach 1200F. Not really a big deal scooping out the ashes as the ash pan is more like a flat shovel.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Man did it get hot outside!!

Anyways, wanted to touch base with this thread.

The other day a HVAC person did visit to look into options for a return air duct. Also, yesterday 2 representatives from HY-C (folks that I have spoken with many times on the phone) flew out to review my setup. I have hope that we are heading in the right direction.


----------



## maple1

*Also, yesterday 2 representatives from HY-C (folks that I have spoken with many times on the phone) flew out to review my setup. *

That sounds promising, don't think that happens too often. Maybe they will compensate you for your testing time.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Also, yesterday 2 representatives from HY-C (folks that I have spoken with many times on the phone) flew out to review my setup. I have hope that we are heading in the right direction.


Yup, that's the first I have ever heard that one! Maybe we have these guys figured all wrong...hopefully, for your sake.
I still think this furnace is a terrible design, but maybe, just maybe their CS doesn't suck too...


----------



## JRHAWK9

ahhh, a case of the squeaky wheel getting the grease.  Cool they are doing this, but ask yourself this question; if it weren't for this thread do you really think they would be doing this?  I think this is more of a case of them trying to save face on a public forum than anything else.  Feel bad for all the others who won't be doing any squawking on a public forum who will never get anybody to fly out to them.  Real customer service shouldn't require full exposure on a public message board in order to get things accomplished.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Or R&D on the consumers dime?


----------



## JRHAWK9

STIHLY DAN said:


> Or R&D on the consumers dime?



See you are finally back!    Took ya three months, but looks like you are finally over the SuperBowl!


----------



## Mrpelletburner

I am still not over 2008 & 2012.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> I am still not over 2008 & 2012.


Could be worse...you could live in NE OH...whose their football team...?


----------



## Mrpelletburner

brenndatomu said:


> Could be worse...you could live in NE OH...whose their football team...?



What team is in NE OH? Is there one?


----------



## STIHLY DAN

The browns. I really would like to see them win it someday.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Mrpelletburner said:


> What team is in NE OH? Is there one?



Or as we now call them, Green Bay east.....


----------



## JRHAWK9

STIHLY DAN said:


> The browns. I really would like to see them win it someday.



Me too now that they pretty much have a GB front office.


----------



## brenndatomu

So what's the heating game plan for winter 2018/'19 @Mrpelletburner ?


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Did you really have to use the "W" word? 

Guess I should start thinking about a plan. So far nothing has changed, HY-C visited, but nothing has been done.

One item I need to look at is the 22" t-snout installed. Because of the distance of the flue to the exterior, the only option was the 22" t-snout. I have to believe that I am not the only person with a long snout .

Next item to look at is do I fill the space between the clay liner and the SS liner with vermiculite? I could always pull the liner, break out the clay liner and blanket-wrap the liner.

Do I dare to keep this stove? Have not heard back from HY-C since last season? Did they change anything with the design after visiting customers in the spring?


----------



## JRHAWK9

Mrpelletburner said:


> Did you really have to use the "W" word?



Some of us look forward to wood heat!  I know I'm one of them.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> So far nothing has changed, HY-C visited, but nothing has been done.


I'd be ridin 'em like a rented mule...time goes by...the "wheel" quits squeaking...so nothing changes...winter 2018/19 is just like the last one...now where did I see this before...oh yeah, "Groundhog Day"


----------



## Tparks

Mrpelletburner said:


> While researching new EPA rated stoves, I could not locate much info regarding the new Fire Chief / Shelter EPA rated stoves. Hope this thread becomes a place where FC/S owners can post their experience setup.
> 
> Perhaps someone that had an older version and has since upgraded, could provide feedback regarding burn times and wood consumption? Was the upgrade worth it?
> 
> Once my FC1000 arrives, I will be sharing my feedback.


I just bought the fire chief 1000 and no matter what kind of wood even 9 percent dry and still had back puffing so bad it blew my clean out Cap off called The place I bought from and talked to fire chief they had me drill out the rivet on the exhaust blower that fixed the back puffing but now it will not put out the heat and I live in a 985 sq ft house this stove is rated for 2500 sq ft I can only get my house to 72 on a 45 degree days and I live in the snow belt of lake Erie. Now I asked for a refund and got laughed at any lawyers on this site.


----------



## laynes69

Tparks said:


> I just bought the fire chief 1000 and no matter what kind of wood even 9 percent dry and still had back puffing so bad it blew my clean out Cap off called The place I bought from and talked to fire chief they had me drill out the rivet on the exhaust blower that fixed the back puffing but now it will not put out the heat and I live in a 985 sq ft house this stove is rated for 2500 sq ft I can only get my house to 72 on a 45 degree days and I live in the snow belt of lake Erie. Now I asked for a refund and got laughed at any lawyers on this site.


Good lord! Even if the stove puts out a third of the output, you shouldn't have an issue with 985 sq ft. I have 2500 sq.ft and at zero I can have the house at 75. You need an energy audit. I'm an hour south of lake erie here in ohio.


----------



## Medic21

Tparks said:


> I just bought the fire chief 1000 and no matter what kind of wood even 9 percent dry and still had back puffing so bad it blew my clean out Cap off called The place I bought from and talked to fire chief they had me drill out the rivet on the exhaust blower that fixed the back puffing but now it will not put out the heat and I live in a 985 sq ft house this stove is rated for 2500 sq ft I can only get my house to 72 on a 45 degree days and I live in the snow belt of lake Erie. Now I asked for a refund and got laughed at any lawyers on this site.



But, according to Mark at H-YC they have sold thousands and there are no real problems...

I don’t know what to tell you.  I’m done with them and their go to standard you did something wrong during install.  I bent over backwards, spent a lot of money, and finally did a modification to get it to burn decent enough to heat my house so I can trust it.  I modified the blower with a reostat to slow it down when it’s not calling for heat and it allows it to work as designed when it does.  It solved the puffing that is because of not enough airflow and I can get roughly 10 hour burns out of it.  House is 75 right now and it’s 14 degrees out.  Won’t be enough with the temps they are calling for later this week but, I don’t think anything properly sized would and I have propane to supplement. 

I plan on “fixing” it when the boiler is installed this summer with a bunch of tannerite and I’m considering shipping it to MO with a note saying its been correctly reengineered.  However, someone here pointed out it can withstand explosions as proven by a lot of us.  Nothing else, I have a decent firebox to start with, mig and tig welder, plasma cutter, torch, etc to make it function good enough for the shop after it comes out of the house. 

Not happy and even less satisfied with H-YC and their ability to try to point out everything wrong with the install instead of admitting they have a poorly designed unit.  Sounds like their other products are not much better right @Mrpelletburner?


----------



## Turd Ferguson

Medic21 said:


> But, according to Mark at H-YC they have sold thousands and there are no real problems...
> 
> I don’t know what to tell you.  I’m done with them and their go to standard you did something wrong during install.  I bent over backwards, spent a lot of money, and finally did a modification to get it to burn decent enough to heat my house so I can trust it.  I modified the blower with a reostat to slow it down when it’s not calling for heat and it allows it to work as designed when it does.  It solved the puffing that is because of not enough airflow and I can get roughly 10 hour burns out of it.  House is 75 right now and it’s 14 degrees out.  Won’t be enough with the temps they are calling for later this week but, I don’t think anything properly sized would and I have propane to supplement.
> 
> I plan on “fixing” it when the boiler is installed this summer with a bunch of tannerite and I’m considering shipping it to MO with a note saying its been correctly reengineered.  However, someone here pointed out it can withstand explosions as proven by a lot of us.  Nothing else, I have a decent firebox to start with, mig and tig welder, plasma cutter, torch, etc to make it function good enough for the shop after it comes out of the house.
> 
> Not happy and even less satisfied with H-YC and their ability to try to point out everything wrong with the install instead of admitting they have a poorly designed unit.  Sounds like their other products are not much better right @Mrpelletburner?


I'm planning on installing a propane furnace for this next winter season. 100% done with them.


----------



## Tparks

Turd Ferguson said:


> I'm planning on installing a propane furnace for this next winter season. 100% done with them.


This stove really stinks and like you said fire chief will not admit that they have a problem as long as you live in a perfect world


Turd Ferguson said:


> I'm planning on installing a propane furnace for this next winter season. 100% done with them.


----------



## Tparks

brenndatomu said:


> Didn't know about that lil detail...I guess that's something...don't think it will help, but its more than just excuses, or playing the blame game.
> 
> This is the one issue I'm not fully satisfied has been addressed is the wet wood possibility. Those moisture meters are not fool proof. And if this was any other stove with a proven track record, I'd say it is a wet wood problem...but in this case I still say poor design, and then the wood could be a contributing factor...maybe.


I'm burning kiln dried fire wood it's at ,9 percent fire chief is a rip off my stove eas professionally installed I was told I have the perfect set up with 0 flaws but can't get my house above 72


----------



## brenndatomu

Tparks said:


> I'm burning kiln dried fire wood it's at ,9 percent fire chief is a rip off my stove eas professionally installed I was told I have the perfect set up with 0 flaws but can't get my house above 72


Yeah, these things are really giving FC a black eye...and I feel bad for everybody that bought one


----------



## Tparks

brenndatomu said:


> Yeah, these things are really giving FC a black eye...and I feel bad for everybody that bought one


Has anyone filed a complaint with the BBB because that's my next step if they get enough complaints fire chief will have to do something


----------



## brenndatomu

Tparks said:


> Has anyone filed a complaint with the BBB because that's my next step if they get enough complaints fire chief will have to do something


Yeah I dunno...that would have only been the first of several steps for me...


----------



## Tparks

Tried talking to the store where I bought it they're trying to get me to up grade to the fc1500 and pay the difference told them no I want my money back I was told that was not happening going to have a face to face next week


----------



## brenndatomu

Tparks said:


> they're trying to get me to up grade to the fc1500 and pay the difference


​They call that an upgrade huh?
Sounds more like paying extra to get a slice of cheese on your crap sandwich to me...


----------



## maple1

brenndatomu said:


> They call that an upgrade huh?
> Sounds more like paying extra to get a slice of cheese on your crap sandwich to me...



Moldy cheese at that?


----------



## Tparks

brenndatomu said:


> They call that an upgrade huh?
> Sounds more like paying extra to get a slice of cheese on your crap sandwich to me...


That's what I said it's like sleeping on poison ivy when you know it's poison ivy


----------



## TCaldwell

Who ever said boilers were expensive


----------



## brenndatomu

TCaldwell said:


> Who ever said boilers were expensive


Me. 
And they are!


----------



## TCaldwell

Sounds like me pellet burner is ready for the dark side


----------



## brenndatomu

maple1 said:


> Moldy cheese at that?


Sometimes they actually charge more $ for that! 
I was thinking more along the lines of a slice of that cheap "processed cheese food" stuff


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Tparks said:


> Tried talking to the store where I bought it they're trying to get me to up grade to the fc1500 and pay the difference told them no I want my money back I was told that was not happening going to have a face to face next week



The upgrade only has a burn time aka heat output of 4-5 hours. I had the 1000 and now the 1500 and have not had success yet. Working closely with HY-C trying to help work out the bugs. I am giving the 1500 2 more weeks.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> I am giving the 1500 2 more weeks.








	

		
			
		

		
	
 then 
	

		
			
		

		
	





	

		
			
		

		
	
 ???


----------



## Tparks

Mrpelletburner said:


> The upgrade only has a burn time aka heat output of 4-5 hours. I had the 1000 and now the 1500 and have not had success yet. Working closely with HY-C trying to help work out the bugs. I am giving the 1500 2 more weeks.


Are they going to give your money back because they told me no refund so I guess the next thing to do is take them to court which it shouldn't have to come that but they will not admit that they screwed up a simple design


----------



## Mrpelletburner

No money back either. 

Let’s say they did sell 2,000 units... so far we have only heard from 5 to 6 people regarding the back puffing issue. While most unhappy folks will take to the web and reviews, satisfied people you tend not to hear from.

The fact that we have not heard from one satisfied owner is very alarming.

I think it would wise for HY-C to put out a series of videos regarding what is a good burn and how to have success with the different models. I think the vapor fire guys do a great job with their videos explaining how to operate the stove.


----------



## 3fordasho

Mrpelletburner said:


> No money back either.
> 
> Let’s say they did sell 2,000 units... so far we have only heard from 5 to 6 people regarding the back puffing issue. While most unhappy folks will take to the web and reviews, satisfied people you tend not to hear from.
> 
> The fact that we have not heard from one satisfied owner is very alarming.
> 
> I think it would wise for HY-C to put out a series of videos regarding what is a good burn and how to have success with the different models. I think the vapor fire guys do a great job with their videos explaining how to operate the stove.




3-4 years ago the Drolet Tundra was the display wood furnace at local Menards, along with a non EPA unit.  When the original tundra was discontinued Menards went to the Shelter SF 1000 as the only display unit, they currently have 3 in stock.  I'm guessing they've moved a bunch of these just because they are what's on hand at your local big box store.


----------



## woodey

Mrpelletburner said:


> I think the vapor fire guys do a great job with their videos explaining how to operate the stove.


Short video-                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             (1)- Purchase and install furnace                                                                                                                                                                                             (2)-Put in paper , kindling and  ignite                                                                                                                                                                                  (3-)Wait for #3 to appear on computer,load wood, shut door, walk away and enjoy


----------



## Mrpelletburner

What I don’t understand is how did the FC1000 pass the EPA test without back puffing?

Also, correct me if I am wrong, I don’t believe the EPA test proofs burn times (actual heat output), just that the unit burns clean.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> I don’t believe the EPA test proofs burn times


No...but the test length is listed...and they were short


----------



## Mrpelletburner

woodey said:


> Short video-                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             (1)- Purchase and install furnace                                                                                                                                                                                             (2)-Put in paper and kindling and  ignite                                                                                                                                                                                  (3-)Wait for #3 to appear on computer,load wood, shut door, walk away and enjoy



I think, while the details are off just a little, Sara from Obadiah’s does a great 3 video set on the FC1500. The start up fire never looks like the start up fire from my unit. Might be just different wood?


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## Mrpelletburner

brenndatomu said:


> No...but the test length is listed...and they were short



Has Tundra posted their test? Haven’t looked and figured someone would have a link.


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## JRHAWK9

Mrpelletburner said:


> I think the vapor fire guys do a great job with their videos explaining how to operate the stove.







I think they did it because it's an unconventional FURNACE and wanted to show people how it's operated.  Those who are used the the manual ones may be scared of the electronics and therefore not wanting to even consider one.


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## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Has Tundra posted their test? Haven’t looked and figured someone would have a link.


Good question...I don't recall seeing the times listed...but I might have missed it.
You have plenty of past and current owners here that will vouch for it though...


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## Mrpelletburner

3fordasho said:


> 3-4 years ago the Drolet Tundra was the display wood furnace at local Menards, along with a non EPA unit.  When the original tundra was discontinued Menards went to the Shelter SF 1000 as the only display unit, they currently have 3 in stock.  I'm guessing they've moved a bunch of these just because they are what's on hand at your local big box store.



Wonder if that Menards has received any complaints or feedback?


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## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> I think, while the details are off just a little, Sara from Obadiah’s does a great 3 video set on the FC1500. The start up fire never looks like the start up fire from my unit. Might be just different wood?


 
The beginning of this is a little


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## woodey

Mrpelletburner said:


> I think, while the details are off just a little, Sara from Obadiah’s does a great 3 video set on the FC1500. The start up fire never looks like the start up fire from my unit. Might be just different wood?


Yeah, I have seen the video. Probably done under tightly controlled conditions not achievable for the most part in real world applications.


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## Medic21

brenndatomu said:


> The beginning of this is a little




That’s funny.  Told me the 2” rise on the flue wasn’t enough, changed it.  Told me the basement door wasn’t a good cold air return, changed it.  Told me this and that was wrong with the installation, changed it.  Told me chimney wasn’t high enough, changed it.

  They need a new video that says the customer is wrong and did it wrong.


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## Tparks

That's the only thing FC does is blame the wood and operator it's a wood stove itsi supposed to burn wood and put out heat the only thing it puts out is smoke in your house  mine was professionally installed burning 9percent dry and can't heat a 985sq ft house so yes this company will blow smoke not only .in your house but up your butt too


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## Mrpelletburner

Medic21 said:


> That’s funny.  Told me the 2” rise on the flue wasn’t enough, changed it.



The SS T-snout connection is about 18” deep, therefore I have to have a 20” SS horizontal run. I do have a slight rise, but doubt it is 2”.

Since the Baro is set to -0.06” wc, I can only assume that my setup is ok? I also have added an OAK.


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## maple1

If your draft is in spec at the furnace outlet, whatever goes on downstream of that is irrelevant. You could have 20' of horizontal (an exaggeration) and it wouldn't change a thing as long as you had spec (-0.06"?) at the furnace.


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## Mrpelletburner

maple1 said:


> If your draft is in spec at the furnace outlet, whatever goes on downstream of that is irrelevant. You could have 20' of horizontal (an exaggeration) and it wouldn't change a thing as long as you had spec (-0.06"?) at the furnace.



Baro is at the wall and measuring 18” to the rear of the stove.


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## Mrpelletburner

Here is a photo of my stove pipe run. The ceramic insulation blanket is so I can maintain clearance between the stove pipe and the water heater.


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## Mrpelletburner

Medic21 said:


> Told me the basement door wasn’t a good cold air return, changed it.



Did you really install a return air duct? 

During HY-C's last visit, they suggested installing a 12x12 floor grate for return air. Had an HVAC guy over to quote and he told me I was nuts.


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## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> During HY-C's last visit, they suggested installing a 12x12 floor grate for return air. Had an HVAC guy over to quote and he told me I was nuts.


Not to mention illegal in many/most places...unless it has a fire damper built in...


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## Tparks

brenndatomu said:


> Not to mention illegal in many/most places...unless it has a fire damper built in...


That's because FC will not admit that they don't have a clue on how to fix the problem any good business would admit it and either fix the problem or give you your money back not Fire Chief


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## Medic21

Mrpelletburner said:


> Did you really install a return air duct?
> 
> During HY-C's last visit, they suggested installing a 12x12 floor grate for return air. Had an HVAC guy over to quote and he told me I was nuts.



Yes, I’m replacing all the floors in the downstairs this year so I said screw it and cut a hole.  I’ve since built a return out of the masonary boards that were left from the old wood burner.  

It made a difference on how efficient the furnace is and it will produce heat an hour longer but, did jack chit for the puffing.


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## Tparks

Fire Chief had me drill the rivet out of the exhaust blower that finally gave the fire box enough air to quit the puffing but as I said before it will not heat my 985 sq ft house with 9 percent dry wood and a fire chief seller did the installation


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## Mrpelletburner

Tparks said:


> it will not heat my 985 sq ft house with 9 percent dry wood and a fire chief seller did the installation



That is a head scratcher as I did not have an issue with heat output, just the back puffing (you might have seen my youtube channel?). 

Assuming you sent photos of your setup to HY-C? Besides removing the rivet, what else did they suggest?

What are you burning for wood (maybe you already stated)?

Have you measured the supply air temperature?

Can you post photos of your setup? Perhaps with the help of the folks here they can provide suggestions to achieve heat output (besides melting down the furnace and relying on the hot melted steel providing heat).


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## Tparks

They had me put a garbage bag over my propane furnace filter I am burning kiln dried hardwood have not measured the air intake I was told I have the perfect set up 0 flaws but no heat


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## brenndatomu

Tparks said:


> I was told I have the perfect set up 0 flaws


I can think of one big red flaw...


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## Tparks

What's that it's a fire chief


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## Mrpelletburner

Tparks said:


> They had me put a garbage bag over my propane furnace filter I am burning kiln dried hardwood have not measured the air intake I was told I have the perfect set up 0 flaws but no heat



I know you were told that you have the perfect setup, not trying to debate the setup. What I have found that gets the most traction, whether with HY-C or folks on this forum is to post photos and videos. 

Personally I use my phone and take photos just about every time I walk over to the stove. I have a 4 channel digital temp meter with thermal couples recording different points of the setup and a webcam.

I do send at least 1 to 3 emails a day to HY-C, even on the weekends  because wood burning is a 24/7 deal. I am sure somewhere in the warehouse at HY-C my photo is on a dart board.


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## Medic21

brenndatomu said:


> I can think of one big red flaw...



BWAHAHAHA!!


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## Tparks

Mrpelletburner said:


> I know you were told that you have the perfect setup, not trying to debate the setup. What I have found that gets the most traction, whether with HY-C or folks on this forum is to post photos and videos.
> 
> Personally I use my phone and take photos just about every time I walk over to the stove. I have a 4 channel digital temp meter with thermal couples recording different points of the setup and a webcam.
> 
> I do send at least 1 to 3 emails a day to HY-C, even on the weekends  because wood burning is a 24/7 deal. I am sure somewhere in the warehouse at HY-C my photo is on a dart board.


Just talked to fire chief and they told me to seal up my cold air return with the filter supposedly I am getting too much cold air into the fire box go home tonight and fix it hopefully


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## Mrpelletburner

Tparks said:


> Just talked to fire chief and they told me to seal up my cold air return with the filter supposedly I am getting too much cold air into the fire box go home tonight and fix it hopefully



What?? Seal up the cold air return? Distribution blower?


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## Tparks

Mrpelletburner said:


> What?? Seal up the cold air return? Distribution blower?


My cold air return needs to be connected to the filter as of now its just sitting behind it the company that installed it didn't build a sealed box for it so instead of just getting the air from the duct work I'm also getting colder air from the basement which is causing too much cold air entering the fire box


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## maple1

They are stringing you along.


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## Tparks

maple1 said:


> They are stringing you along.


Probably but gotta try it I have all the parts from my old stove for this


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## Mrpelletburner

Tparks said:


> My cold air return needs to be connected to the filter as of now its just sitting behind it the company that installed it didn't build a sealed box for it so instead of just getting the air from the duct work I'm also getting colder air from the basement which is causing too much cold air entering the fire box



I don’t know your basement layout or how cold the basement is, therefore it is hard to say they are stringing you along. However I have been told the same exact thing.

I don’t have a return duct connected, just pulling air from the basement. I do have a couple digital temperature gages placed around the basement and one prob between the distribution blower and air filter. The average basement temperature is between 73 and 79 degrees and the prob typically measures 74 degrees. 

I believe the large black embers against the rear wall is from cool distribution blower temperatures.


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## Tparks

My basement is usually around 62 64 and all the coals are black when you don't feed the fire


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## KC Matt

Timely bump


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## Medic21

KC Matt said:


> Timely bump


If I wanted to be reminded of my mistakes I’d go see my ex wife...


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