# I HATE INSULATING CEILINGS!!!



## ScotO (Aug 12, 2012)

I'm right smack dab in the middle of insulating my cathedral ceiling in our new 'great room'.  What an effin' miserable job.  Anywho, I have never insulated a cathedral ceiling, but from all I have read you want the underside of the roof to breathe so here is what I am doing.  My house was built by my great-great-grandfather and my great-grandfather around 1918.  So to make the ceiling cathedral, I had to individually make each roof rafter into a truss, and that was a fun job  (that's for another conversation).  Back to the task at hand...... First, I installed vented soffit and a ridge vent on the peak of both roofs (I forgot to mention that there are actually 2 catherdral ceilings in the room).  Next I cut out the original dutchlap siding at the soffit and screened the hole with kevlar screen (to keep bees, bats, birds, etc from ever getting into the attic area).  Then I installed foam baffles to keep the insulation from blocking the airflow.  I then put in a layer of R30 unfaced insulation across the ceiling rafters.  I used string to keep that stuff from falling out.  Next I put R13 unfaced insulation between each ceiling rafter, again using string as a retainer (around every 8" across the entire ceiling).  I plan on using either heavy black plastic or possibly that foil faced 'bubble wrap' as the vapor barrier, taking the time to tape the joints of that stuff.  Does this sound about right?  Any professional input would be appreciated.  I'll post pictures later of this nightmare, I have been avoiding this job like the PLAGUE for over a year now (yes, you read that right), wife wants it done NOW or no more chainsaws and trees for me.....


----------



## Defiant (Aug 12, 2012)

You sure know how to have fun, you are not getting a like for this one, unless the pic's are good.


----------



## fishingpol (Aug 12, 2012)

I use insulation wire supports.  Thin stiff wire that you push up between the rafters.  Quick and easy, no stapling and reloading the stapler.  A tyvek suit to keep the itchies down.  The suits always seem small for me though, and ya sweat a pound or two away.


----------



## fishingpol (Aug 12, 2012)

I used these little buggers for the vented soffit for a nice clean look.  Various sizes available.


----------



## Vic99 (Aug 12, 2012)

I did a basement ceiling 4 years ago.  Miserable job!  Had all kinds of piping and such to work around.  Nothing like fiberglass raining down on you.  Took me 3 sessions to complete it.

If I had to do it again, I would have taken the time to cut 1 inch polystrene, caulked or spray foamed the imperfections, and declared victory.  Only R5 and still a PIA but at least would have stopped air flow and wouldn't have been exposed to Cajun-fiberglass rub on my skin.

What you explain sounds right for a roof.  I probably would have used metal wires between joists to secure fiberglass in place.


----------



## PapaDave (Aug 12, 2012)

Yep, that sounds like more fun than I'd want to have.
Sounds about right, as long as it has space to breathe.
I've avoided jobs only to find that they weren't all that bad once I got to 'em. That one, however, might never get done here.
I'd like to put some more insulation in our attic, but the wife has turned it into a storage space, so that won't get done until we can put that somewhere else.
One job turns into many.


----------



## ScotO (Aug 12, 2012)

Defiant said:


> You sure know how to have fun, you are not getting a like for this one, unless the pic's are good.


Ah, actually I was looking for the 'f**k this chit' button but I cant seem to find it.....


----------



## ScotO (Aug 12, 2012)

Gave up on those metal rods....string is the way to go.  Dealing with the misery as best as I can.....find a happy place, Scotty.  Find a happy place......

Some pics of my handmade trusses (there are 5/8" gussets on the peaks that are glued and nailed to mate the new ceiling joist to the original roof rafter), also you can see the struts between the rafter and joists.  Those baby's are mega-strong, there was 5' of snow on these rafters the winter after I built them from a wind driven nor'Easter we had.  Also some pics of the painstakinly slow insulation process and even a picture of the ALIEN that is doing the work!


----------



## Thistle (Aug 12, 2012)

NIOSH respirator is your friend.....much better than paper masks which fog up my bifocals (even the better ones w/exhalation valve most of the time)  Old clothes,wash them seperate from the wife's stuff  just to be safe


----------



## Jack Straw (Aug 12, 2012)

I see some ceiling fans in your future! My boss's living is exactly like that and we made a pine beam ( we made it out of 1xs) and installed it at the peak so we didn't have to tape it and it gave us a flat surface to mount the ceiling fans.

Very nice job, you should have plenty of ventilation!


----------



## fishingpol (Aug 12, 2012)

I see you have a lot going on there and the rods won't work everywhere. I did a job where the rafters were not evenly spaced, so I used a roll of binding strap. Like the stuff the wrap newspaper bundles in. It worked well.


----------



## ScotO (Aug 12, 2012)

Jack Straw said:


> I see some ceiling fans in your future! My boss's living is exactly like that and we made a pine beam ( we made it out of 1xs) and installed it at the peak so we didn't have to tape it and it gave us a flat surface to mount the ceiling fans.
> 
> Very nice job, you should have plenty of ventilation!


thanks Jack.  We're doing a T&G pine ceiling, and we're going to install hand -hewn decorative rafters every 4' and a hand hewn ridge board, all from the barn I tore down several years ago.  I won't be installing that stuff til next summer unless EVERYTHING ELSE goes smoothly on this project, which never happens....I just want to be able to use it for Thanksgiving and Christmas, I can do some of the detail work in late winter/spring.  Here's my ceiling, all 600sq ft of it, buried under my horde of tools and supplies!


----------



## Jack Straw (Aug 12, 2012)

Wow! That will be great, I hope you have scaffolding!


----------



## ScotO (Aug 12, 2012)

Yep, got that too!


----------



## PapaDave (Aug 12, 2012)

Scotty, you're a better man than I if you can do finish work with a chainsaw.
Looks to me like you're doing a GREAT job.
Is the T&G end-matched? If it is, it's VERY easy to put up, since the ends don't need to fall on a stud. I used that when I redid our 3 season porch into a master bedroom. Of course, no matter when you do this......we'll wait for the pics. For a minute.


----------



## woodgeek (Aug 12, 2012)

In central PA the vapor barrier is probably unnecessary, but you will want to make sure the drywall is 'airtight'.


----------



## fishingpol (Aug 12, 2012)

It has always been my understanding to install vapor barrier to reduce the movement of moisture from inside the home through the walls where it can condense during cold weather outside.  Cooking, showering and even breathing give off vapor.  Moisture does move through drywall.


----------



## Beetle-Kill (Aug 12, 2012)

Scotty, great job!  Now call it a night, Olympics closing ceremonies feature the "Pet Shop Boy's"! 
You know you don't want to miss that!


----------



## begreen (Aug 12, 2012)

You have my utmost sympathy Scotty. I hate it too.

It's going to look fantastic when done, so keep the vision in mind.


----------



## woodgeek (Aug 12, 2012)

fishingpol said:


> It has always been my understanding to install vapor barrier to reduce the movement of moisture from inside the home through the walls where it can condense during cold weather outside. Cooking, showering and even breathing give off vapor. Moisture does move through drywall.


 
Condensation is caused by vapor carried by air movement around sheetgoods and through the structure, very seldom by diffusion through the materials. Most misunderstood problem in building science. Ensure that no conditioned air leaks into the ceiling cavity, and the structure will hold BTUs, and the OP can avoid ice dams.  The tiny amount of vapor diffusing through the drywall will be negligible (given that venting he is putting under the deck)


----------



## ScotO (Aug 12, 2012)

woodgeek said:


> In central PA the vapor barrier is probably unnecessary, but you will want to make sure the drywall is 'airtight'.


Woodgeek, its going to be tongue and groove pine ceiling, not drywall.  That's the main reason I am putting the vapor barrier up, to keep the condensation to a minimum in the airspace above the insulation, given the fact that the boards will expand and contract with the change of seasons.


----------



## woodgeek (Aug 13, 2012)

Sorry, I was unclear about your description of the stackup.  Cathedral ceiling with tongue and groove sounds like it could be a big problem regarding air leakage, and resulting problems like icedams and high energy bills.  You are totally right that you will want some sort of air barrier in there and know you have to tape it carefully...but it is not clear that bubble wrap or poly would be the right solution....there will be a lot of nail holes.  I would spend a little time exploring the building science sites for best practice advice before I put on the finish layer.


----------



## Hogwildz (Aug 13, 2012)

You'll be fine with the plastic wrap Scotty. The T&G will be a joy compared to drywalling the ceiling. I did my entire addition in T&G. Walls & ceilings. With the exception of the closets, they got drywalled. I used brad nails to install my T&G ceiling & walls, and it went very well. The ceiling already had OSB board on it, so I just siliconed and taped the seams and installed the T&G over that. I finished the boards after, which is a real PITA. 4 coats of satin clear, with a scuff sanding between pairs of coats. Sucks to sand ceilings. I used an orbital sander. It will go up quick, and much more pleasantly than that insulation did.

;-)


----------



## ScotO (Aug 13, 2012)

Hogwildz said:


> You'll be fine with the plastic wrap Scotty. The T&G will be a joy compared to drywalling the ceiling. I did my entire addition in T&G. Walls & ceilings. With the exception of the closets, they got drywalled. I used brad nails to install my T&G ceiling & walls, and it went very well. The ceiling already had OSB board on it, so I just siliconed and taped the seams and installed the T&G over that. I finished the boards after, which is a real PITA. 4 coats of satin clear, with a scuff sanding between pairs of coats. Sucks to sand ceilings. I used an orbital sander. It will go up quick, and much more pleasantly than that insulation did.
> 
> ;-)


Thanks for the re-assurance,  Hogz.   I'm definitely looking forward to the ceiling install, I will be putting up some heavy mil plastic and taping all joints.


----------



## Jags (Aug 13, 2012)

Scotty - I have done almost exactly what you are doing with the exception that I used rigid foam and then just stuffed any imperfections with fiberglass.  My ceiling is much smaller than you are dealing with, but the pine goes up fast.

A pic while in process:  The beam closest is still unfinished.


----------



## Hogwildz (Aug 13, 2012)

One other note Scotty. You do not have to have end matched T&G. The standard stuff just butts together and you should stagger the seams anyways. so any that don't meet at a rafter, will be held in place by the next groove which should span well past either end of that joint. Granted in the summer and winter those joints expand a little bit, nothing major, nothing noticeable. No issues here.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Aug 13, 2012)

Im in central pa and my house gets down to about 20-25% humidity in winter. Dryer than a desert. I did all  blown in insulation. Cant stand fiberglass. Seems to shrink after a few years as well.( the old stuff anyway)


----------



## ScotO (Aug 13, 2012)

Jags said:


> Scotty - I have done almost exactly what you are doing with the exception that I used rigid foam and then just stuffed any imperfections with fiberglass. My ceiling is much smaller than you are dealing with, but the pine goes up fast.
> 
> A pic while in process: The beam closest is still unfinished.
> View attachment 71874


That looks fantastic, Jags! Love the beams and kingposts, dis you install any recessed lighting? That was my other concern, as I have direct insulation-contact recessed lights, any other thoughts on how to block vapor loss at those lights? Did you seal your ceiling light box with hi-temp rtv where the holes are?


----------



## ScotO (Aug 13, 2012)

Seasoned Oak, do you have any moisture problems in that ceiling?  My house is as dry as a popcorn fart in the winter, too.  Right about where yours is (20 to 25% range).  Being that wood is my primary heat source (haven't used the furnace in years),  its hard to get your humidity up.


----------



## Jags (Aug 13, 2012)

I didn't do can lights. I put in a big azz fan with lights. For my application I did not want any ceiling protrusions if I could help it.  Being an unheated cabin when not occupied, I was staying with the kiss method to eliminate as much potential for problems as I could.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Aug 13, 2012)

Scotty Overkill said:


> Seasoned Oak, do you have any moisture problems in that ceiling? My house is as dry as a popcorn fart in the winter, too. Right about where yours is (20 to 25% range). Being that wood is my primary heat source (haven't used the furnace in years), its hard to get your humidity up.


Not at all.I actually have to run a HUMIDIFIER in winter. Summer is another story humidity is high but im using the whole house fan a lot so no dead air anywhere.


----------



## ScotO (Aug 13, 2012)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Not at all.I actually have to run a HUMIDIFIER in winter. Summer is another story humidity is high but im using the whole house fan a lot so no dead air anywhere.


Thanks Randy!  I think I am going to do a similar thing in that ceiling.  I was thinking of running a couple pieces of 4" or 6" PVC with perforations in it down each bank of the ceiling, and piping that into a small fan that would inject air into those tighter spaces, maybe put it on a humidistat or a thermal switch to come on when conditions warrant in the summer.  Overkill, you say?  You did see my name, didn't you?   Just some random thoughts......


----------



## velvetfoot (Aug 13, 2012)

Not a DIY, but a friend of mine had a guy come in and blow foam on his cathedral ceiling.  I think he had foam ventilation troughs.  I watched when he did a small section.  He was on a way-tall scaffold on wheels.  I also think it was the type of foam that needed a vapor barrier.


----------



## ScotO (Aug 13, 2012)

velvetfoot said:


> Not a DIY, but a friend of mine had a guy come in and blow foam on his cathedral ceiling. I think he had foam ventilation troughs. I watched when he did a small section. He was on a way-tall scaffold on wheels. I also think it was the type of foam that needed a vapor barrier.


 I looked into the spray foam route, but I didn't like it for several reasons.  One of my biggest concerns is that my roof is made up of planks, not sheathing.   I was worried about the foam becoming seperated from the planking, not to mention I was worried about it even sticking to the planking due to dust and dirt.  I think I have the insulation thing handled, I'm more concerned now about water vapor and a vapor barrier.


----------



## woodgeek (Aug 13, 2012)

It seems unvented cathedral roofs and T&G ceilings are a recipe for disaster.

With the venting you put in, and a continuous air barrier under the planks you should be aok.  Poly sounds good, carefully tape the seams with an appropriate tape (like red housewrap tape) and detail the edges.  I'm not a fan of recessed lights myself, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.  I would def get insulation contact air-tight ICAT fixtures, and detail the air barrier carefully with caulk or tape.


----------



## ScotO (Aug 13, 2012)

woodgeek said:


> It seems unvented cathedral roofs and T&G ceilings are a recipe for disaster.
> 
> With the venting you put in, and a continuous air barrier under the planks you should be aok. Poly sounds good, carefully tape the seams with an appropriate tape (like red housewrap tape) and detail the edges. I'm not a fan of recessed lights myself, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. I would def get insulation contact air-tight ICAT fixtures, and detail the air barrier carefully with caulk or tape.


 WG, I got the airtite cans, so that's good to go.  I will definately seal up all seams, and I'm gonna go a little extra and tape over the staples where I attach the VB to the ceiling joists.  Thanks for the tip on looking up scientific building, I found a couple good sites that I looked at.  Seems that so far, I'm up to par with my project.  I'll keep posting pics as I progress, hoping to have the one ceiling done by Thursday or Friday evening, may even start installing the T&G this Sunday if all goes well.


----------



## vinny11950 (Aug 15, 2012)

Looks great so far, Scotty.  Way to go.


----------



## ScotO (Aug 16, 2012)

vinny11950 said:


> Looks great so far, Scotty.  Way to go.


Thanks Vinny.  I'm just hoping I can 'stay the course' and get this project done soon....lol....


----------



## PapaDave (Aug 16, 2012)

Scotty, I doubt "staying the course" is much of a problem.
Most of us on here are self sufficient, self reliant, diy-er's that git 'er dun.
We have faith you'll stay the course.
We need updated pics, so you have to.


----------



## ScotO (Aug 16, 2012)

PapaDave said:


> Scotty, I doubt "staying the course" is much of a problem.
> Most of us on here are self sufficient, self reliant, diy-er's that git 'er dun.
> We have faith you'll stay the course.
> We need updated pics, so you have to.


thanks Dave.  And you are correct, we are the type that likes to 'git-R-done'!  I'll update some pics this weekend, I should be ready to put the vapor barrier up by Sunday evening.   Hope to be putting up the tongue and groove all next week.


----------



## semipro (Aug 16, 2012)

Scotty Overkill said:


> WG, I got the airtite cans, so that's good to go..


Beware the "airtight" cans.  Despite the name, the ones I've seen have plenty of locations where air can leak through.  I sealed mine with high temp silicone.


----------



## midwestcoast (Aug 16, 2012)

That ceiling's gonna look great! and nice careful work on the insulation too.
If you are worried about all the nail holes in the vapor barrier from the T&G is it too late/spendy to slap some OSB over the poly? Gives you relatively few screws through the poly versus all the nails, and you can squirt some caulk in the holes first if you're real picky. Also would mean you can nail the T&G wherever you want (for butt joints, straightening warped boards...). I did that on a small sunroom because wife wanted the T&G pine to be vertical. Took no time at all since the joints didn't need to be tight.


----------



## begreen (Aug 19, 2012)

For a T&G ceiling I would pre-finish the boards while they are at ground level. Once installed I would do a final finish coat but no more. Like Hog said, sanding them up on the ceiling is much harder.


----------



## RichVT (Aug 19, 2012)

I would do all of the finishing first on the ground. Some people think that the finish buildup will prevent the boards from going together. I can tell you from experience that it is NOT a problem. Also, some people will put a biscuit in the end joints to keep them aligned with each other.


----------



## PapaDave (Aug 19, 2012)

"Also, some people will put a biscuit in the end joints to keep them aligned with each other."
Excellent idea if you don't mind the work.


----------



## ScotO (Aug 19, 2012)

PapaDave said:


> "Also, some people will put a biscuit in the end joints to keep them aligned with each other."
> Excellent idea if you don't mind the work.


PD, I don't think we're going to get that involved.  We're looking for more of an authentic 'rustic' feel to that ceiling.  I'm not going to go too crazy on sanding, we're going to put a very light stain on the boards, and put two coats of satin clear on them.  I'll hit them with a scotch-bite pad between coats and that will be about it..


----------



## PapaDave (Aug 19, 2012)

Scott, sounds like a plan.
I just hadn't thought of doing that. However, the idea of cutting all the ends for biscuits in a decent sized room is .....daunting.


----------



## Defiant (Aug 19, 2012)

Scotty Overkill said:


> I'll hit them with a scotch-bite pad between coats .


Been hanging with Mad Dog too much, watch out the pads may bite back


----------



## ScotO (Aug 19, 2012)

Call me Crazy Horse


----------



## lukem (Aug 20, 2012)

How are the shoulders holding up on you Scotty?  I'm sure you've been feeling the burn quite a bit when working overhead.  I put up a bunch of can lights in my basement ceiling last winter and my shoulders were toast when I was done.


----------



## ScotO (Aug 20, 2012)

lukem said:


> How are the shoulders holding up on you Scotty?  I'm sure you've been feeling the burn quite a bit when working overhead.  I put up a bunch of can lights in my basement ceiling last winter and my shoulders were toast when I was done.


They're not too bad, but my lower back is aching!  I should be ready to put the vapor barrier up by Wednesday,  and we will be installing some of the ceiling on Saturday.   Looking forward to getting it done!


----------

