# is a prius really green?



## bruce56bb (Jun 22, 2007)

some interesting research.

http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/


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## begreen (Jun 22, 2007)

Give me a break. Have you hugged your Hummer today? Mr. Spinella aka CNW marketing is somewhat of a self-proclaimed expert that cherrypicks what he perceives as facts and collects them to make an argument he calls research. His premises are full of holes and a lot of hot air, pretty much of an anti-environmentalist, the auto equivalent of burning issues. This is just a ploy to gain some attention to his bogus marketing firm. 

The article is just plain silly BS: Most of his gas mileage figures are simply made up. He claims that a Suburban gets 26.9 MPG and a Prius gets 29.6! Dodge Ram Hemi: 27.6! Hello How many of you gas Suburban owners are seeing 27mpg? Same nonsense on the other end for the Chevy Aveo. The Prius will average about 45mpg under crappy conditions and on the road can easily run in the 55 mpg range. He lists the life span of a Prius at 100k. Toyotas are just getting broken in at 100k. Taxis have already shown that the Prius is good for well over 200k miles of hard service. 

There is a digg discussion on this topic too:
http://www.digg.com/environment/Prius_Does_Not_Outdo_Hummer_in_Environmental_Damage

Here's Toyota's take (from Japan, slow to open):
http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/k_forum/tenji/pdf/pgr_e.pdf


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## begreen (Jun 23, 2007)

Counterpoint

http://www.google.org/recharge/index.html


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## bruce56bb (Jun 23, 2007)

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2006/10/prius_mileage_1.html

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/fueleconomy/articles/105503/article.html


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## TMonter (Jun 23, 2007)

My neighbor with a Prius has a car lifetime average of 44.7 (based on fuel consumed and miles driven). He tracks fill-ups and mileage on a spreadsheet, but the computer does it for you too.


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## begreen (Jun 23, 2007)

I think that is a reasonable number. Bruce, you're right on, the EPA figures were wildly off and needed a more realistic testing routine for hybrids. However, when Consumer Reports tested many vehicles, they found that some of the worst errors in EPA mileage figures were with non-hybrids.
http://www.soultek.com/clean_energy/hybrid_cars/New_epa_fuel_mileage_hybrid_cars_and_the_future.htm

But an **average** mileage of 44.7mpg with any car is awesome. Our Prius's total average is a bit less so far, more like 41 mpg. But compared to our Subaru Legacy at 21mpg under the same average conditions (lots of short local trips with lots of hills) I think near doubling mileage and more than halving emissions is a good thing. This isn't to knock the Subaru, we loved it and it got 28-29mpg on a trip. But for average mileage, which goes down a lot in the winter with short trips, the Prius is doing its thing pretty well. 

FWIW, the Prius mileage seems to be improving, maybe this is breaking in? It's easy to pass 50mpg on a trip now and our short trip average is about 45mpg so far this summer. We couldn't do that when it was new so I have full expectations that the total average on the car will continue to improve.


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## Sandor (Jun 23, 2007)

Next car purchased will be a Honda diesel. Should be out in 2010.

The mileage numbers thrown around here regarding the Prius are in Golf/Jetta TDI territory.

I postulate [in the future] that a diesel hybrid will be the mileage king.


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## begreen (Jun 23, 2007)

I've got my eye on that Honda diesel. If it's a PHEV, it could be real sweet. Europe is also working on several hybrid diesels. Let's hope GM and Ford get with the program. 

If the Jetta was a bit bigger inside, especially rear legroom, we might have ended up getting one. They're more fun to drive.


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## keyman512us (Jun 24, 2007)

Bruce...
 I'll commend you for bringing the subject up. It was definately worthy to spark a discussion. If you told me someone actually made such ludicrous claims as this "CNW research" I would hardly have ever believed there was someone so bold as to believe in the gullability factor of the American public at large...that they would waste the time to produce such propaganda. I stand corrected.
 I doubt anyone would look at this information as "credible"...but I'll probably end up sitting next to someone having a beer next week that will bring it up... 
So at this point...I'll play devils' advocate for a moment. If there was even a slight bit of relevance to "the claims" I would counter to the effect: In trully American Tone...

...I don't Care! 
At least someone (Japanese Corporations) has gotten off their ^ss and said "We are going to try something that might make a difference." They don't have the typical American attitude of the drunken high school football star "just hoping to ^ang the homecoming queen." The corporate mentality that pervades the American business comunity turns my stomach. No longer does American business work towards a "Better brighter tommorow". They prefer "business as usual" and hide behind it "hey gotta keep the shareholders happy". Hope the shareholders of GM and Ford are happy when they file for Bankruptcy. All one needs to do is look back over the years of how "cozy big business has been with each other". Big oil gets in bed with the "big three". They raise oil prices to sell lots of small cars. Then they let the bottom drop out and say "Hey look at this...this is what you need..an armchair on wheels...so what if it only gets seven miles to the gallon...you're an American...you deserve LUXURY". They spend booo-kooo bucks advertising, giving away Cadillac Escalades to rap stars and the MTV generation that is too young to remember last week let alone the 1973 oil Embargo...but then again No American, Including you and I would openly advocate for $5/gallon gas...even though we both know that is the only thing that is going to save this country...1.) By protecting develeopment of energy...other than big oil...2) By getting us out the huge debt we have incurred over the years "protecting our oil supply" (What a joke...Who they kidding? Protecting big oils profits)...3) And lastly...though nobody really cares about this one: Bringing home our young men and women, who blindly bought into the so called "fight against terrorism" we, their elders "sold them"...because our fearless leader is trying to "erase daddy's mistakes...while he blunders into his own"...and shipped them off to a part of the world, that, let's face it...if there wasn't oil under their feet...we wouldn't think twice about, no matter how much they slaughtered each other... 
Tell me I'm wrong??? How can you???
You want to fight terrorism??? Start by letting your elected officials know it's time to declare war...on "big oil". "Either you get rid of big oil...or we are gonna get rid of you...even if we have to vote for bozo the clown to do it." If that is too much of a stretch...just repeat to yourself everytime the "fear mongers" try to sell their "propaganda" to ya "BS...It's all just BS!"
I'm usually a "moderate"...but when someone goes so far as to claim a Suburban gets over 20MPG???? That "hybrids" aren't all that great for the planet??? What kind of "geniuses" are we dealing with??? Are these the same people that denied "good intel" by saying "Naggh! There is no reason for concern...those middle easterners are legitamate student pilots..." Are they the same ones that "renewed their visas...after 9/11"???
I guess I'm just fed up! How we went from total complacency to "Hey you can't bring a bottle of Coca-Cola onto this flight..." (***Shaking my head in total amazement****)
Lotta hot air coming out....but I look at it this way. The beautifull thing about the Idea of a Prius is this: Even if didn't get great gas mileage...It fits into the American way of life in the 21st century...It shuts itself off while you wait in line at Macdonalds. No action on your part required!
Personally, (as someone who wore the uniform at the time) IMHO "daddy" should have worried less about "world opinion" and done the job the first time around...We might have caught some flak for it...but the buildings would still be standing,3000+ civilians would still be alive...and 3,555 (to date) brave young men and women would still be with us.

Our fearless leader says "We are a nation addicted to oil"...Seems kinda funny, (back in the 1970's Jimmy Carter had a similiar message)...Well if our own president is telling us this maybe it's time Americans "check into rehab" on the subject....

The Prius??? Think of it as Methidone....


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## PAJerry (Jun 24, 2007)

I've had my Prius since Nov. 2003 and now have 74,000 miles on it with no mechanical or electrical problems at all.  Lifetime average is 46 mpg - I do an actual calculation every time I buy gas, since the computer is usually off a bit, depending how full I fill it.  I have never been happier with a car.  I had to put new gutters on the back of my house last weekend, since I finally got the metal shingle roof put on, and I was able to haul 10 ft. gutters and downspouts in it with the hatch closed. Outside of not being able (or willing, I guess) to haul horse manure for my garden in it, it is the most utilitarian car I have owned.   The best replacement I could think of might be a small truck, but the mileage would be MUCH lower and the comfort much less. If this guy thinks the Suburban is a more 'green' vehicle, he belongs in some treatment facility.

  When Bush said 'we are addicted to oil', what he was really thinking was 'we are addicted to oil, and my friends and I are loving every minute of it'.  This evil man does not have the interest of the country at heart and just speaks what he thinks people will swallow, and so far most Americans have taken the bait, hook, line, and sinker. The only thing any rational person can do is to try to reduce one's personal consumption of oil and gas as much as possible. To look for any kind of legislative action to push this is a waste of time right now.  I firmly believe that if anything is going to be done, it will now come from the individual states - the federal government is totally ineffective right now.  Some regions of the country are beginning to move in the right direction - New England and the West Coast in my opinion.  This applies not only to reducing energy consumption, but also pollution and citizen health care - the major issues at this time.  We are in danger of becoming the 'Semi-United Countries of America' if the feds don't get their act together.


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## wg_bent (Jun 24, 2007)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> The article is just plain silly BS: Most of his gas mileage figures are simply made up. He claims that a Suburban gets 26.9 MPG and a Prius gets 29.6! Dodge Ram Hemi: 27.6! Hello How many of you gas Suburban owners are seeing 27mpg? Same nonsense on the other end for the Chevy Aveo.



from your comment, not sure you saying Aveo's do well or not... I rented one recently and was working to see how well it REALLLY could do.. I managed 23 mpg with about 70% high way driving.  That's awful in my opinion for that car.  My Honda Odyssey does that well.


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## wg_bent (Jun 24, 2007)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> I've got my eye on that Honda diesel. If it's a PHEV, it could be real sweet. Europe is also working on several hybrid diesels. Let's hope GM and Ford get with the program.
> 
> If the Jetta was a bit bigger inside, especially rear legroom, we might have ended up getting one. They're more fun to drive.



And let's hope NY get's it head out of it's arse and allows diesel cars again.


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## keyman512us (Jun 24, 2007)

Warren said:
			
		

> BeGreen said:
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And let's hope Massachusetts does too... but I won't hold my breath...


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## smirnov3 (Jun 25, 2007)

I was looking into the Jetta Diesel as well, what with the new 'clean diesel' (46MPG vs 50 for the Prius, but much cheaper to buy (used)). But I have heard so many stories about VW being 'the mechanics friend' that I decided  not to


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## saichele (Jun 26, 2007)

Seems like I'm on this soapbox a lot, but my 2000 Golf TDI basically rocks.  there were a couple weird sensor things early on - warranty items.  but it's been 7 yrs and 107K miles and very little beyond routine maintenance - oil change every 5K (synthetic and a special filter, so about $35 in materials), new brake pads at 100K (rotors were still good) new struts at 70K.  

And the mileage is real - bad tank inthe winter bottoms out around 42mpg, normal is 48-50, record is 66 (wife was highway driving).  It's a decidedly proven technology (father in law drives a 1981 diesel rabbit - 40mpg at 250K miles), you only have to worry about one set of drive systems, in real world driving does as well or better than the hybrids, and (barring cellulosic ethanol) biodiesel looks a whole lot more sustainable.  Oh, and it carries a lot in the back (hatchback) and cruises happily on the highway at 80mph (getting 50mpg).  

If I could find another one (either new for the 16,500 I paid, or used at a reasonable price) I'd buy it.  Problem is, poking around ebay at least, it's hard to find one with less than 100K on it for less than $10K.

Steve


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## velvetfoot (Jun 26, 2007)

Hey another TDI'er!
I love my 2000 TDI Beetle with 210,000 miles on it.
It's gotten 50 mpg all its life.
I've just learned some sad news:  looks like 2008 is last year for Beetle, going out with a whimper (cheapened up) and no TDI.
No Rabbit TDI either, I read for 2008.-just the Jetta.
Hopefully the Jetta Wagon will be available in 2008-I'd really like a hatch.
Won't be a cheap ride, I fear.
I'd get a used late model TDI Beetle, but I don't like the diesel that's been here since 2004 (unit injectors driven off cam shaft via belt).
The one for 2008 will be common rail with piezo injectors.


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## wg_bent (Jun 26, 2007)

Telsa Turbine

Combine that with a system like the Chevrolet (yes, the Americans have a cool "hybrid" too) Volt and you'd have a real winner.


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## saichele (Jun 26, 2007)

Yea, I'm not a fan of the PD.  I wish I'd had my act together to buy a Passat Wagon TDI when they were available a couple yrs ago.  

I'm actually surprised how little the prices have changed, considering the dollar is worth so much less.

Steve


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## velvetfoot (Jun 27, 2007)

Looks like there will be a TDI wagon this spring per www.tdiclub.com


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## jjbaer (Jun 27, 2007)

Sandor said:
			
		

> Next car purchased will be a Honda diesel. Should be out in 2010.
> 
> The mileage numbers thrown around here regarding the Prius are in Golf/Jetta TDI territory.
> 
> I postulate [in the future] that a diesel hybrid will be the mileage king.



Sandor,

Maybe amongst conventional cars but a purely electric car costs about 1 cent per mile for the electricity to operate it (at about 11 cents/kw-hr).......a conventional car getting 30 mpg and at $3/gallon for gas costs about 10 cents/mile for the gas......no way diesel comes close to electric.........


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## Sandor (Jun 27, 2007)

castiron said:
			
		

> Sandor said:
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I realize this. But, until a battery powered car can achieve a 400 mile interval between charges, a hybrid is still the answer. Charge times are also an issue. Maybe EEStore's capacitor will solve the problem.

Things will be changing rather quickly in the future. I will be buying an electric golf cart this year to run around the neighborhood and to friends homes a couple of miles away. I will fit a solar panel on the roof and play around! 

Anybody out there not making preparations for an energy-expensive future is "playing with fire". Hey, this is a hearth site!


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## begreen (Jun 27, 2007)

Why 400 miles? For many folks, the bulk of their driving is less than 40 miles a day. As long as it's a plugin hybrid you've got the best of both worlds. Run on electric during the week and run on petrol for the trip to the mountains on the weekend.

Though actually if it were a pure electric car capable of 100 miles like the RAV4, we could use it for 90% of our driving.


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## Sandor (Jun 27, 2007)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Why 400 miles? For many folks, the bulk of their driving is less than 40 miles a day. As long as it's a plugin hybrid you've got the best of both worlds. Run on electric during the week and run on petrol for the trip to the mountains on the weekend.
> 
> Though actually if it were a pure electric car capable of 100 miles like the RAV4, we could use it for 90% of our driving.



I agree with you. But what happens when the airlines quit flying and Craig wants to visit his daughter? J/K.

I envision a two car family. Instead of a Corvette and Tahoe, I see an electric short trip vehicle and a hybrid to get to the beach.


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## begreen (Jun 27, 2007)

Sandor said:
			
		

> I agree with you. But what happens when the airlines quit flying and Craig wants to visit his daughter? J/K.



A long extension cord?  Or we'll all be walking/bicycling and meeting in Kansas. Or maybe...


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## jjbaer (Jun 28, 2007)

Sandor said:
			
		

> castiron said:
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## velvetfoot (Jun 28, 2007)

I've gone 900 miles on a tank of fuel in my Beetle.


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## Rhone (Jun 28, 2007)

We have an early Honda Civic HX, at the time it was better than a hybrid in fuel economy but hard to find.  We had no bargaining power we wanted that car, brand new and there was only 2 in all of New England.  

You can read about it, it's a gutted civic with more aluminum, a modified more fuel efficient civic engine, and if you opted for the manual transmission not only was it $1,000 cheaper you also got more miles per gallon (we wanted manual).  It was slated for something like 35 mpg City/40 mpg highway and we started averaging 37 mpg right off the lot.  Like Begreen either we've gotten more efficient at driving or it's "loosened" up we now average 39.2 mpg.  It's too bad Honda doesn't make it anymore, being $5,000-$6000 cheaper than the Prius, and no matter which way you want to look at realistic comparisons it's really hard to make $5,000+ of your money back in gas with the Prius (comparing 45 mpg vs. 39.2).  Some trips with the Civic we average over 42 mpg but I can't recall ever hitting 43.  It doesn't have that new chique I'm a hybrid driver, and it's based on the civic DX which is the cheapest of their line with no luxuries (we're lucky it came with a clock), I think of it as the poor man's wannabe hybrid and, for that means it does very well.  Both Toyota and Honda are probably the most reliable cars out there, our Civic HX is real tight.


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## velvetfoot (Jun 28, 2007)

It's interesting how Toyota charges extra for more airbags.
Do they both still charge more for A/C?


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## wg_bent (Jun 28, 2007)

Well, a more interesting point on Toyota that is frequently ignored is that they don't just well the Prius, but Hilander and Camry.
32/27 for Hilander
40/38 for Camry

40 mpg for a car the size of the Camry ain't bad, and 32 for an SUV isn't bad either.   BUT did you know that a SAturn VUE Greenline also get's 32 mpg?   And does it for $12,000 LESS than the Toyota!!  

o.k., so I don't think the statement that Americans are sitting around doing nothing is correct.  But their can't market themselves out of a paper bag.


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## smirnov3 (Jun 29, 2007)

The Problem with  FORD / GM is that in the 90's, they were making most of their money off of the SUVs. So they didn't invest in designing small, fuel efficient cars. 

So now they have a viscious cycle:
1) They are stuck in the mindest that SUV = $$$, fuel efficient car =  bait to get you to the dealerto buy an SUV.
2) Without the R&D investment, they have to licence a lot of fuel-efficiency stuff from other car companies (they use the toyota Hybred mechanism, for one). And the licensing fees keep the profit margins down. 
3) So they don't bother designing good small cars, because there is no money in them

To be honest, I'm not surprised that it was a Japanese manufacturer that created the hybred. In America, we are only now starting to think of dependence on foreign oil as a security threat. in Japan, they have already fought (and lost) a war over oil. They understand.


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## TedNH (Aug 14, 2007)

My wife and I purchased a 2006 Honda Civic Hybrid in Nov of 05.
While the car was well built and smooth on the road.  we saw a best of 46mpg on the highway in the middle of summer.  Most of the time we were getting high 30's and in the cold of winter it was nearer 30mpg.
We have sold the car for 1 reason.
it is dangerous on the highway.  merging/keeping up with traffic/acceleration all were piss poor and made it dangerous to drive the car in traffic.  It was nice but Im not interested in getting run over.  around town it wasnt as bad.  but still....safety first.


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## whenley (Aug 14, 2007)

Rhonemas said:
			
		

> We have an early Honda Civic HX,


Hey Rhone, what year is your HX?  
We have a '95 CX hatch, great little car, daily driver, Cost $11K off the lot in '95.  I've tracked every tank thru that car, over 300 tankfuls, average 42.11mpg, stdev=2.6.  Love that car.  Will run 80mph on hiway without breathing too hard.  Too bad they don't make them anymore.  Another really neat Honda I would like to have is the Civic VX, a variable valve timing engine tuned for economy, don't make it anymore either.  Great little cars without the complexity of a hybrid.
If Honda brings in a diesel I'll give it a very close look.


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## wg_bent (Aug 15, 2007)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Why 400 miles? For many folks, the bulk of their driving is less than 40 miles a day. As long as it's a plugin hybrid you've got the best of both worlds. Run on electric during the week and run on petrol for the trip to the mountains on the weekend.
> 
> Though actually if it were a pure electric car capable of 100 miles like the RAV4, we could use it for 90% of our driving.



There are now aftermarket kits that allow the Prius to greatly increase it's electric only range.  I've read up to 38 miles.  That should cover most of peoples daily driving, and the averages I've seen put that car at nearly 100mpg overall if you look at it over time.


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## My_3_Girls (Aug 16, 2007)

Warren said:
			
		

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Ditto for M"ass"achusetts, too!


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## KeithO (Aug 24, 2007)

I bought a 2005 Cobalt used less than a year old. At the time it was the best mileage "conventional" american built car available.  It has a great engine (Ecotech) but the rest of the car is the biggest pile of crap you could imagine.  Steering rack is loose (2 years 35k miles), have had a spring fail in one of the rear drums, replaced the rear shocks which were shot - leaking oil.  The "paint" on the radio buttons has come off (they are clear plastic with black paint on).  The chrome coating on the inside door handles is peeling off (razor sharp).  There are intermittant electrical problems with the left headlight and the ignition switch.

I do get relatively decent mileage.  Up to 38mpg on highway and 28-30 on very short trips (5 miles one way daily commute).

I find it hard to believe that the one poster said he didn't get 30mpg with the Aveo.  I suggest there was a problem with how that was measured/calculated.  Several people at work have the Aveo and get 35-40mpg in promarily highway driving.  Of course the Aveo is a full import, so one has to see it as almost another Hyundai not a GM vehicle.

Keith


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## PAJerry (Aug 24, 2007)

76,000 miles on the 2004 Prius and not one problem.  46 mpg. lifetime average (not by the computer but by calculation each time I buy gas).  I hope GM gets their act together on the Volt electric vehicle. There should be a big market for it, but I hope they also get their act together on build quality and long term reliability. The other issue with a lot of high-milage cars is the lack of space.  The Prius being a mid-sized hatch-back gives you a lot of hauling options and it is very comfortable on long drives to see the kids in Ohio.


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## pdboilermaker (Nov 7, 2007)

I have a Hummer H3, I get 19mpg in mixed driving.  When I get rid of it, I dont have 100's of pounds of lead to get rid of or replace.  The weight of the batteries alone are enough that if you were a business you would have to list your car with the local EPA and fire department through SARA title 3 reporting (over 500 pounds of an extremely hazardous substance).  

The dust to dust report is on TOTAL energy used, not vehicle energy used.  I get 1/2 the mileage of a Prius but my maintenance costs are lower.  Distribution pollutants are less,  you know cheaper to send within the USA by train then from 1/2 way around the world by boat etc. althought the batteries do take a full trip plus some - From Canada, to Japan, to China, back to Japan, back to the USA

Dust to dust is a big picture study sorry for all of you that were taken for the Toyota ride.  If you were really concerned, you would have purchased the much more recyclable, much higher mileage, much lower cost of ownership SMART car


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## begreen (Nov 7, 2007)

Troll, you are blowing it out of an oversized exhaust pipe. The Prius is exceptionally low maintenance. Other than oil changes and tire rotations you hardly do anything. Brakes often last greater than 100,000miles. As for recycling, there is a program in place for it, though so far the Prius batteries really seem to stand up. Cabs with over 200K on them are still on the originals. You don't have 100's of pounds to recycle when you get rid of that dinosaur, more like 5,000 lbs. The dust to dust report by the quack in Oregon was just a GM promo doc, no more and hardly factual.


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## JRP3 (Nov 9, 2007)

Not to mention that batteries are recyclable.  Get used to it people, EV's are probably the only hope, oil will keep getting more and more expensive, end of story.


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## TMonter (Nov 10, 2007)

> The dust to dust report is on TOTAL energy used, not vehicle energy used.  I get 1/2 the mileage of a Prius but my maintenance costs are lower.  Distribution pollutants are less, you know cheaper to send within the USA by train then from 1/2 way around the world by boat etc. althought the batteries do take a full trip plus some - From Canada, to Japan, to China, back to Japan, back to the USA



The dust-to-dust report is pure bunk. It's page after page of pure obfuscation about the actual cost of the Prius. Those vaunted trips around the world? They cost on average about 5 bucks total energy. In case you didn't know ocean transport of goods is the most efficient transport there is.

You get less than half the Mileage of a Prius, paid more than the Prius and in 5 years the value of that H3 will be half of what you bought it for. Meanwhile the prius with the same mileage will have held about 80% of its value.

It's not even close to a valid comparison.


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## PAJerry (Nov 10, 2007)

As far as maintenance, some interesting things are being discovered as these cars age.  Brakes are good for over 60k miles due to the regen braking that occurs at any speed over 7 mph. Several Prius taxis have gone over 200k on the original batteries without a problem.  Oil change intervals are bring taken to 10k and beyond by owners who have had oil analysis done and found that the very cool-running engine is very easy on oil.  I currently have 81k on mine and have gone to the 10k OCI and have not had any mechanical or electrical problems since new in Nov. 2003.  Current resale value on mine is a bit over $15k after a purchase price of $23k - not too bad for a 4 year old car.  I suspect that a 4 year old Hummer is worth considerably less. 

  The world is changing, and some, as always, will not.  There will always be Hummers, but I would bet on many less as gas inches toward $5 per gallon.


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## smirnov3 (Nov 12, 2007)

PAJerry said:
			
		

> Current resale value on mine is a bit over $15k after a purchase price of $23k - not too bad for a 4 year old car.  I suspect that a 4 year old Hummer is worth considerably less.
> .



The Hummer's resale value depends on whether you are selling it as a car or as a vacation cottage.


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## MrWinkey (Nov 12, 2007)

I've got my fingers crossed that someone will make a pure eletric car that's AWD.

Where my house is I need that in the winter or I will end up walking.  My commute to work is 26 miles each way also so it would be nice to have like 100 mile range therbouts.

Oh well.....I'll stick with my diesel for now and hope they start making more Bio-D and count on the longevity of the rig to makeup for the higher cost of fuel.


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## velvetfoot (Nov 13, 2007)

I've run some b15 in my VW tdi but am a little nervous about it since I don't think the quality may be uniform, plus you have a lot to lose if your injection system gets messed up.
With the new VW diesel coming out (now in the summer of 2008!) I don't think I'd be a first adopter in running biodiesel.  Wait and see how it works.
VW recommended 10k mile synthetic oil changes on my vintage TDI and I've done that for all its current 210k miles.


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## drizler (Nov 20, 2007)

keyman512us said:
			
		

> Bruce...
> I'll commend you for bringing the subject up. It was definately worthy to spark a discussion. If you told me someone actually made such ludicrous claims as this "CNW research" I would hardly have ever believed there was someone so bold as to believe in the gullability factor of the American public at large...that they would waste the time to produce such propaganda. I stand corrected.
> I doubt anyone would look at this information as "credible"...but I'll probably end up sitting next to someone having a beer next week that will bring it up...
> So at this point...I'll play devils' advocate for a moment. If there was even a slight bit of relevance to "the claims" I would counter to the effect: In trully American Tone...
> ...




You know what.   When I first read this I took it for a bit of a rant  Yet when you look at it, really look at it closely its about as it gets to the truth of the matter.   Just like any other crime all you have to do is simply "FOLLOW THE MONEY" and it will lead to the culprit.     As  this expenditure and  waste of lives goes ceaselessly onward chasing whatever boogeyman ,  Saddam, Ben Laden or whoever, fill in the blank with whoever is convenient, it goes on all the same.    The rich (or more lately megarich) they be gettin a lot richer a lot faster.    Blame that on the boogeyman.


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## elkimmeg (Nov 20, 2007)

> the drunken high school football star “just hoping to ^ang the homecoming queen.”


 Don't knock it it worked for me. The rest of the cheerleaders weren't bad either.


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