# Anyone else remove/modify stove with reburn tubes?



## yardatwork (Sep 28, 2010)

Well after two seasons of using my woodburner with the reburn tubes...I'm fed up and modifying the stove to the old school style.  I've removed the fiber board, tried taking the tubes out, but they are recessed in the stove and won't come out.  I'm adding a damper in the stove pipe and working this wood burner like the old days.  The stove I have now was purchased at Lowe's and claims to cover 1800-2000 square feet.  Well, I can't get this thing to heat my 700 sq. feet worth of basement (basement is only under a portion of my entire house).  My old stove (non EPA) was rated at 1000 sq. feet and heated my entire house (basement and upstairs).  I sold that stove for the fancy reburn stove and have regretted that decision ever since.  Anyone else have as much trouble as I have had with building heat in these new EPA certified stoves?  Anyone else decide to remove the reburn tubes and go with the old school woodburner style?  I know I'm going to get comments about two year minimum seasoned wood...I'm using two year min seasoned hard wood.  I honestly think my stove has some sort of defect, but at this point I can't return the stove.  At times I see the reburn tubes working and blowing flames from them...however...the top of the stove NEVER gets hot enough to matter.  I can honest place my hand 1/4 inch from the top of the stove and leave it there without burning myself.  The stove just isn't producing heat.  The only major heat being produced comes through the glass on the front door, but even so, nothing that's gonna make you write home about.


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## firefighterjake (Sep 28, 2010)

Generally we don't seem to hear of too many people who don't like the extra heat from the EPA stove unless a) they're not burning seasoned wood (although most all of them believe they're burning seasoned wood -- to be fair, two years sounds pretty good . . . providing it is in a good location), b) they don't understand how to run their stove (i.e. they run the stove with the air open all the way not realizing the secret is to get the stove hot and then start closing the air to achieve the secondary burn and retain more of the heat in the stove and not let it go up the chimney or c) the stove has an honest to gawd defect.

Truthfully, I would guess 99% of the time the issue boils down to Reason A or B . . . well I take that back . . . sometimes folks get a stove too small.


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## ControlFreak (Sep 28, 2010)

Woah, don't do that!  

There's no doubt that the new technology is so much better than the "campfire-in-a-box" old pre-EPA stoves.  Figure out what's wrong, rather than trashing a good stove.  The new stove technology will take you some time to learn, so work the learning rather than curse the technology.  It is true the that the new stoves are less tolerant of moisture in wood, but once you're working together with it, you'll be very happy!

Seriously, I hated my Napoleon 1401 for the first couple years until I figured out how to get my wood seasoned properly.  With the proper fuel, it's a dream.  It has heated my home wonderfully for 14 years now.

Go to Home Depot and pick up some crappy 2x4's and cut them up.  These should burn very nicely in your stove, so you can get the feel for what should happen.  If 2x4's don't burn well, then maybe you do have a problem with the stove, or your chimney has a problem with draft, or your house is so tight that its limiting your air supply.


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## northernontario (Sep 28, 2010)

Have you looked into other possible problems?  (I won't mention the wood seasoning thing  )... 

How is the draft on your chimney?  If you have a pre-fab chimney (stainless double/triple wall insulated), have you tried adding another section to it?  It's a relatively quick job if you're working with pre-fab.  If you have a masonry chimney, then you are looking at a lot more work.   You might even want to look into having someone test the draft on the chimney to make sure it's drafting properly?(pulling enough vacuum)   

Perhaps there are some other mods that could be done to increase the amount of air able to enter the stove?  

Maybe you can put this one back together... sell it... and buy an old non-EPA stove for a deal (since who wants one of those old clunkers!)


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## vvvv (Sep 28, 2010)

just plug the 2ndary air intake hole with al foil & it'll stop the airflow if u want. & post back if u get better results, eh? EPA stove aint burned with same procedure as non-EPA stove


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## DanCorcoran (Sep 28, 2010)

Live close to Canada, eh?


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## vvvv (Sep 28, 2010)

DanCorcoran said:
			
		

> Live close to Canada, eh?


2close 4 comfort, eh?


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## oldspark (Sep 28, 2010)

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water just yet, what brand of stove is this so owners of that paticular stove can chime in.


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## begreen (Sep 28, 2010)

Agreed, don't do this. Have you been in touch with Englander tech support on the issue? One thing to check is to be sure the baffle board is tight to the back of the stove. If not, flames can go right up the flue. That would dramatically affect performance.


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## DAKSY (Sep 28, 2010)

How about you give us something more specific?
What kind of Stove?
What model?
What size chimney? (inside)
How TALL is the chimney?
Is it straight up or do you have offsets?
What are the offsets? (15, 30, 45 or 90 deg) 
Have you checked the moisture content of your wood?
Seasoned two years unsplit & under a a tarp will not dry as 
well as split with a a simple top over it to allow air flow to dry it....


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## yardatwork (Sep 28, 2010)

I do fully opened until the box gets hot then I pull the draft back to about half.  The flames are beautiful, orange/blue, minimal to no smoke coming out of the chimney.  I've sat in front of that thing for an hour straight and about 90% of the time...the tubes aren't doing anything.  The only time I've noticed them working was right after I open the door, put a new piece of wood in, and reclosed the door.  If memory serves me right there have even been times that the fiber board was glowing orange...but still no heat on top of the stove.  I clean the chimney before each season...the access pan is only about half full of creosote flakes from the cleaning.  So the wood is burning properly and is creating little to no creosote for the whole season.  My chimney is on the east side of my house, rarely any down draft, sticking about the roof 2 1/2 feet, two 90s (one to go out the wall and one to go up the side of the house).

Right now my fiber board is broke in half and I'm ready to drill holes to place the damper.  Since the tubes wouldn't come out as described in the owner's manual, the fiber board was fragile and it broke while trying to remove it.

My stove is a SUMMERS HEAT 50-SNC13LC


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## yardatwork (Sep 28, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Agreed, don't do this. Have you been in touch with Englander tech support on the issue? One thing to check is to be sure the baffle board is tight to the back of the stove. If not, flames can go right up the flue. That would dramatically affect performance.



I did contact them and all they said was to make sure the fiber board was all the way back.  I knew that and it was.  They were of NO help.


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## vvvv (Sep 28, 2010)

gotta fill the stove be4 u light it
air from tubes dives down to hot area even if tubes aint burning. maybe the 2ndary air inlet is plugged?


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## northernontario (Sep 28, 2010)

yardatwork said:
			
		

> My chimney is on the east side of my house, rarely any down draft, sticking about the roof 2 1/2 feet, two 90s (one to go out the wall and one to go up the side of the house).



Only 2-1/2 feet above the roof?  Most chimney manufacturers are specifying min. 3ft of chimney above roof, and minimum of 2ft of chimney beyond any part of the roof (or structure) within 10 feet.  So, if you've got a high-slope roof, you could be 3ft above the point where the chimney passes through, but less than 2ft above something within 10 feet.  This can have a huge impact on the draft of your stove.   And if you sit near a hill, or other features that may cause wind turbulance/pressure changes... your chimney should be higher.  

My chimney meets the 3ft/2ft@10ft rule... but still drafts poorly.  I think I'll be extending it before the winter hits.


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## oldspark (Sep 28, 2010)

I think 2 1/2 ft is fine, I think he has other problems, many many reasons for poor draft and he did say it workd well with the old stove.


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## vvvv (Sep 28, 2010)

northernontario said:
			
		

> yardatwork said:
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said his pre EPA stove worked better


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## stoveguy2esw (Sep 28, 2010)

i just gotta know what stove this is. sounds like our 13-nc series but im not sure because taking the tubes out is simply removing a screw at the base of the tube and sliding it over and out, shouldnt be difficult at all.


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## yardatwork (Sep 28, 2010)

stoveguy2esw said:
			
		

> i just gotta know what stove this is. sounds like our 13-nc series but im not sure because taking the tubes out is simply removing a screw at the base of the tube and sliding it over and out, shouldnt be difficult at all.



It's a SUMMERS HEAT 50-SNC13LC

I did take the screw out.  The one side that takes the screw is welded to the tube meaning you can only push it from left to right to remove it.  Well the left side tube sticks into the stove area with more pipe than the right side hole can take...follow what I mean?  So when the tube is pushed as far to the right as it can go, there is still tube left in the left side hole meaning the tube won't come out.  Seems to me that the tubes were placed in first the the mounting bracket was welded to the inside of the box.


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## BrotherBart (Sep 28, 2010)

Isn't that outside pipe only about nine and a half feet high?


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## yardatwork (Sep 28, 2010)

The tee sits two feet above the ground, four sections of three feet pipe, and a cap...single story house w/ wood burner is the basement...floor vents and stairs for heat to rise up through.  The 6" prefab chimney goes up along side of my house about three to four feet after my gutter (looking at it from the side).  My "real" chimney runs up the middle of my house, but that is hooked to my furnace with forced air.  I've honestly never had draft issues...however...I'm no draft expert!  

If the reburn tubes aren't working properly, then most of the heat will go straight up the chimney...correct?  Without a damper in the stove pipe what prevents all of the heat from just rising up and out?  I think this is what's happening.  The fiber board prevents the flames from hitting the top of the stove in return preventing the top of the stove from ever getting hot?


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## BrotherBart (Sep 28, 2010)

Sounds like you added another pipe section after your post in February:

"The inside black pipe from the unit is about 4’ before going into the wall kit and outside connecting to the insulated pipe.  My outside insulated pipe/chimney is about 10’ tall (3, 3’ sections of pipe and 1 foot tee section)...roughly sits 2’ above the roof."

Three sections and going into the middle of a tee would only render about 9 1/2 feet of vertical. Then considering that you have two ninety degree turns that chimney will never be able to establish a strong enough draft for the reburn to work. There has to be a strong enough draft to pull air through the tubes as well as the primary air channels.


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## vvvv (Sep 28, 2010)

yardatwork said:
			
		

> The tee sits two feet above the ground, four sections of three feet pipe, and a cap...single story house w/ wood burner is the basement...floor vents and stairs for heat to rise up through.  The 6" prefab chimney goes up along side of my house about three to four feet after my gutter (looking at it from the side).  My "real" chimney runs up the middle of my house, but that is hooked to my furnace with forced air.  I've honestly never had draft issues...however...I'm no draft expert!
> 
> If the reburn tubes aren't working properly, then most of the heat will go straight up the chimney...correct?  Without a damper in the stove pipe what prevents all of the heat from just rising up and out?  I think this is what's happening.  The fiber board prevents the flames from hitting the top of the stove in return preventing the top of the stove from ever getting hot?


wrong, any air that enters the stove will go to the hottest spot which is where the wood is flaming or the hot coals are----due to air buoyoancy factors


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## oldspark (Sep 28, 2010)

Even with out the secondaries working the top of the stove should get hot, just a small fire in my stove with out the secondaries kicking in the top gets hot.


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## yardatwork (Sep 28, 2010)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Sounds like you added another pipe section after your post in February:
> 
> "The inside black pipe from the unit is about 4’ before going into the wall kit and outside connecting to the insulated pipe.  My outside insulated pipe/chimney is about 10’ tall (3, 3’ sections of pipe and 1 foot tee section)...roughly sits 2’ above the roof."
> 
> Three sections and going into the middle of a tee would only render about 9 1/2 feet of vertical. Then considering that you have two ninety degree turns that chimney will never be able to establish a strong enough draft for the reburn to work. There has to be a strong enough draft to pull air through the tubes as well as the primary air channels.



I didn't add another section...I wrote the wrong info.  It's 12' tall with 4, 3' sections.  Maybe I just need another section for a better draft.


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## oldspark (Sep 28, 2010)

If the chimney is too short and not enough draft shouldn't he be seeing other problems besides a poor burn?


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## yardatwork (Sep 28, 2010)

Here's a pic of my outside setup...


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## BurnIt13 (Sep 28, 2010)

yardatwork said:
			
		

> Here's a pic of my outside setup...



Looks to me like you need about another 8 feet of chimney pipe.  You need to be at least 2 feet higher than anything within 10 feet.   It barely looks like you're two feet above the roof line.


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## DanCorcoran (Sep 28, 2010)

Your chimney is definitely too short for the roof.  It needs to be (if I remember correctly) 2 feet above any roof within 10 feet horizontally.  I'd guess you need at least another 6 feet, maybe more.


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## yardatwork (Sep 28, 2010)

Damn...I was hoping I wasn't going to need more pipe...that's going to be TALL and awkward looking.  I put my stove in the ONLY possible spot of the basement...and it looks like it might have been a bad spot.  

Well...thanks for all the help.  I'll get another section of pipe for starters and see if that make a difference.  I'll hold off on drill and modifying!


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## burntime (Sep 28, 2010)

Wow, yep, that really needs more length!  I bet it wakes up as soon as you add to it!


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## BurnIt13 (Sep 28, 2010)

yardatwork said:
			
		

> Damn...I was hoping I wasn't going to need more pipe...that's going to be TALL and awkward looking.  I put my stove in the ONLY possible spot of the basement...and it looks like it might have been a bad spot.
> 
> Well...thanks for all the help.  I'll get another section of pipe for starters and see if that make a difference.  I'll hold off on drill and modifying!



That stove should be kicking butt and taking names, especially in a basement.  I'd tackle the easier (but not always cheaper) problems before moving on to custom modifications.  Not that draft may be your only problem, but another 6-8 feet should remedy that possibility.

As someone else mentioned, try some known dry wood just for the sake of science.  After you add some length to the chimney if you are still having issues, cut up some 2x4s and build a fire.  If it gets hotter than hades, your wood was wet.


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## vvvv (Sep 28, 2010)

yardatwork said:
			
		

> Damn...I was hoping I wasn't going to need more pipe...that's going to be TALL and awkward looking.  I put my stove in the ONLY possible spot of the basement...and it looks like it might have been a bad spot.
> 
> Well...thanks for all the help.  I'll get another section of pipe for starters and see if that make a difference.  I'll hold off on drill and modifying!


I thhhhhought u said u had pre EPA stove at same location that worked better?


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## BrotherBart (Sep 28, 2010)

BLIMP said:
			
		

> I thhhhhought u said u had pre EPA stove at same location that worked better?



He did. Happens all the time. People that have a pre-EPA stove install EPA stoves which require stronger draft and they are dis-satisfied with the performance of the new stove. As you have read many times here. When you actually buy and install a wood stove you will see what we mean.


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## FireAnt (Sep 28, 2010)

I hope it is just the pipe. My 13 heats my 1500 sq ft ranch like crazy!  I get secondaries easily, and overnight burns.


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## vvvv (Sep 28, 2010)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

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what about the fla bungalow syndrome?


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## yardatwork (Sep 28, 2010)

BLIMP said:
			
		

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I had a smaller non-EPA that I sold and bought a bigger EPA.  The smaller, non-EPA heated my house without issue.  From what everyone is saying...I DO have a draft issue for the EPA stove.


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## BrotherBart (Sep 28, 2010)

BLIMP said:
			
		

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When you actually buy a wood stove and install it in a bungalow in Florida you will see what we mean.


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## yardatwork (Sep 28, 2010)

BLIMP said:
			
		

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I put the fiber board back in (in two piece though!), DID NOT drill any holes and add the damper, and tomorrow I will get another section of chimney.  Calling for 40s this weekend, so I'll get to use this baby and see if the draft issue was the issue.


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## vvvv (Sep 28, 2010)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

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sounds like a retirement plan?


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## Bigg_Redd (Sep 28, 2010)

yardatwork said:
			
		

> Well after two seasons of using my woodburner with the reburn tubes...I'm fed up and modifying the stove to the old school style.  I've removed the fiber board, tried taking the tubes out, but they are recessed in the stove and won't come out.  I'm adding a damper in the stove pipe and working this wood burner like the old days.  The stove I have now was purchased at Lowe's and claims to cover 1800-2000 square feet.  Well, I can't get this thing to heat my 700 sq. feet worth of basement (basement is only under a portion of my entire house).  My old stove (non EPA) was rated at 1000 sq. feet and heated my entire house (basement and upstairs).  I sold that stove for the fancy reburn stove and have regretted that decision ever since.  *Anyone else have as much trouble as I have had with building heat in these new EPA certified stoves?*  Anyone else decide to remove the reburn tubes and go with the old school woodburner style?  I know I'm going to get comments about two year minimum seasoned wood...I'm using two year min seasoned hard wood.  I honestly think my stove has some sort of defect, but at this point I can't return the stove.  At times I see the reburn tubes working and blowing flames from them...however...the top of the stove NEVER gets hot enough to matter.  I can honest place my hand 1/4 inch from the top of the stove and leave it there without burning myself.  The stove just isn't producing heat.  The only major heat being produced comes through the glass on the front door, but even so, nothing that's gonna make you write home about.



Nope.

My EPA certified stove blasts the heat.

But I didn't buy mine at Lowes. . .


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## yardatwork (Sep 28, 2010)

Bigg_Redd said:
			
		

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Off topic...but nice avatar...TOOL fan?!?


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## BrotherBart (Sep 28, 2010)

Bigg_Redd said:
			
		

> My EPA certified stove blasts the heat.
> 
> But I didn't buy mine at Lowes. . .



No sympathy for you here.  Find any cracks in it yet? :lol:


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## daryl (Sep 28, 2010)

If your roof pitch is 6/12 you need 84" of pipe above the roof. 5/12  needs 74", 4/12 needs 64" so on and so forth. Any thing over 60" needs a roof brace kit. That has been code before EPA stoves ever came out.


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## Fake coal burner (Sep 29, 2010)

Take a look at old homes that use to burn coal or wood Chimney is higher than the highest peek of the roof. Even new homes around  here thet have gas  furnaces have the pipe sticking above the highest peek of the roof . :coolhmm: Don't for get to compensate for the elbows and altitude you are at. Go higher.  :bug:


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## oldspark (Sep 29, 2010)

When yard said the chimney was 2 1/2 ft above rood line I thought he meant peak, I gotta pay more attention.


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## BrotherBart (Sep 29, 2010)

oldspark said:
			
		

> When yard said the chimney was 2 1/2 ft above rood line I thought he meant peak, I gotta pay more attention.



I am convinced that the height rule has more to do with not setting the roof on fire than it does with draft. I understand needing the height to incite draft but don't know what the heck distance from the roof slope has to do with draft since it is working on temperature differential.


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## precaud (Sep 29, 2010)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> I am convinced that the height rule has more to do with not setting the roof on fire than it does with draft. I understand needing the height to incite draft but don't know what the heck distance from the roof slope has to do with draft since it is working on temperature differential.



In this instance, I wouldn't agree. Direction of cold air flow on that roof is down into the chimney.

Also, if he extends this chimney up, he probably will need to brace it, lest it blow away...


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## yardatwork (Sep 29, 2010)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> oldspark said:
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I read over the owner's manual for taking the chimney up and off set from the peak of the house.  It had a diagram and showed placing the outside chimney just like I have mine.  It never mentioned having it up past the peak (no matter where you place it).  It specified the 2' or 2 1/2' feet rule.  What ever it was, I'm right at the coded height above roof line.  I personally don't see how adding another section or two of chimney will make the stove burn significantly better.  The top of my stove should be getting hot no matter what in my opinion.


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## precaud (Sep 29, 2010)

yardatwork said:
			
		

> I personally don't see how adding another section or two of chimney will make the stove burn significantly better.  The top of my stove should be getting hot no matter what in my opinion.



Methinks you aren't seeing the problem because you are underestimating the role and importance of the chimney in this whole event. Unless there is something wrong with your stove, or your wood isn't seasoned, the problem HAS TO BE with the chimney. What else could it be?

Pre-EPA stoves helped make marginal chimneys work OK because they dumped much more of their heat into them. Hotter chimney = more draft.

Indoor vs outdoor temperature differentials also affect chimney draft. It's not very cold in western PA now.

If the prevailing wind is from the opposite side of the roof (other side of the peak) then the chances of a downdraft at your chimney top are increased.


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## oldspark (Sep 29, 2010)

http://www.inspectapedia.com/chimneys/Chimney_Height.htm


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## begreen (Sep 29, 2010)

yardatwork, although you think the wood is dry, you need to be really sure. Split a few splits in half and check the fresh surface of the wood for moisture. If you don't have moisture meter, put it up against your cheek and see if it feels cool and damp. The chimney is too short. With the resistance of 2 90 deg turns it is effectively about half the 12ft height or 6 ft.. As a test, get a 4' length of inexpensive 6" galvanized duct pipe (at Lowes or HD),and use that as your test extension. Try a burn with known dry wood, not too large splits (say 3-6") in the stove and see if you note a real difference.


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## oldspark (Sep 29, 2010)

My setup has 2 90's and it about 18 ft and so far has worked well even in the warmer weather, that is after hearth.com members told me it was ok to start a fire with the door open.


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## oldspark (Sep 29, 2010)

I can relate to yardatwork because I had a pre EPA stove that worked flawlessly for 30 years and was worried about how well the new one would draft, it just seems like it the old stove worked so well the new one should burn better than what he is seeing. I assume he has the englander and I thought they worked better than some other EPA stoves when it comes to draft.


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## BrotherBart (Sep 29, 2010)

oldspark said:
			
		

> I can relate to yardatwork because I had a pre EPA stove that worked flawlessly for 30 years and was worried about how well the new one would draft, it just seems like it the old stove worked so well the new one should burn better than what he is seeing. I assume he has the englander and I thought they worked better than some other EPA stoves when it comes to draft.



Pre-EPA stoves' draft just had to pull air through the hole in the front to get it to the wood and the fire. With an EPA stove the primary air has to be dragged kicking and screaming through the inlet in the back to the front of the stove. With some going up the sides to the airwash and some to the lower primary air distribution. All the while secondary air has to be pulled in through the secondary air manifold and out of the burn tubes up top.

A lot of distance and resistance that has to be overcome to get the air into the firebox that didn't exist in the old stoves.


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## oldspark (Sep 29, 2010)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> oldspark said:
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 What I am saying is my chimney is marginal when you look at the specs and it sounds like my summit needs more draft that the englander to work well, I would think yards set up would work better than it does.


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## Shari (Sep 29, 2010)

From your stove manual:

"To help ensure a good draft, the top of the chimney should be at least 3 feet above the point of penetration through the roof, *and be at least 2 feet higher than any point of the roof within 10 feet*."

Shari


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## precaud (Sep 29, 2010)

Shari said:
			
		

> From your stove manual:
> 
> "To help ensure a good draft, the top of the chimney should be at least 3 feet above the point of penetration through the roof, *and be at least 2 feet higher than any point of the roof within 10 feet*."
> 
> Shari



What? You're suggesting that someone actually read the manual?


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## DanCorcoran (Sep 29, 2010)

Per the OP, "I read over the owner’s manual for taking the chimney up and off set from the peak of the house.  It had a diagram and showed placing the outside chimney just like I have mine.  It never mentioned having it up past the peak (no matter where you place it).  It specified the 2’ or 2 1/2’ feet rule.  What ever it was, I’m right at the coded height above roof line.  I personally don’t see how adding another section or two of chimney will make the stove burn significantly better.

Apparently the OP read, but misunderstood, the manual.  His chimney is not adequate, either for proper draft or for safety.


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## DanCorcoran (Sep 29, 2010)

P.S.

I didn't pay for all these guys to install this humongous chimney just because I needed to get rid of some extra money...it was installed to meet minimum clearances.

Needless to say, the draft'll suck your hat off, if you're not careful...


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## Slow1 (Sep 29, 2010)

All that for an electric stove Dan?  J/K 

Not a stick of firewood to be seen and that plug just sort of stood out in the photo to me... made me laugh so I had to share the amusing thought.

That is one clean install - I assume it has worked out well for you.


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## DanCorcoran (Sep 29, 2010)

Well, I only got 2-3 fires before the season ended.  Needless to say, I'm chomping at the bit to get back up to the cabin and fire it up this season (next week looks good).  I've split a lot this summer, but it won't be dry enough to use...still an issue I need to resolve.  Also, now that the stove is in (and a staircase built to the loft), I'm ready to haul some furniture up to the cabin (which'll help hide the electric cord).


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## yardatwork (Sep 29, 2010)

Everything everyone is saying about the draft does make sense now.  The old EPA stove always burnt really hot making the stove pipe ho,t forcing everything up and out.  Since the new EPA stoves REBURN what was once wasted heat I can see why the stove pipe isn't as hot now.  With less stove pipe heat = less forced draft.  My old non-EPA had draft holes right in front and no distance to travel.  Like mentioned, my new stove pulls from the back of the stove and will need more draft to get the air going.  I should have realized this when the glass on my wood burner door wasn't staying as clean as this new "air washed" technology explained. 

There's a science to everything and that's why I came here.  I was born and raise on non-EPA stoves so I needed some guidance on these fancy new stoves!  Thanks everyone!


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## vvvv (Sep 29, 2010)

ultimately the proof is in the pudding


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## firefighterjake (Sep 29, 2010)

yardatwork said:
			
		

> Everything everyone is saying about the draft does make sense now.  The old EPA stove always burnt really hot making the stove pipe ho,t forcing everything up and out.  Since the new EPA stoves REBURN what was once wasted heat I can see why the stove pipe isn't as hot now.  With less stove pipe heat = less forced draft.  My old non-EPA had draft holes right in front and no distance to travel.  Like mentioned, my new stove pulls from the back of the stove and will need more draft to get the air going.  I should have realized this when the glass on my wood burner door wasn't staying as clean as this new "air washed" technology explained.
> 
> There's a science to everything and that's why I came here.  I was born and raise on non-EPA stoves so I needed some guidance on these fancy new stoves!  Thanks everyone!



Sounds like we may have converted you over to not ripping the guts out of your stove . . . and giving it another try . . . stick around . . . a lot of folks here are wicked smart . . . we'll get you through this and one day you'll look back and wonder why you were even considering going back to the pre-EPA stoves.


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## oldspark (Sep 29, 2010)

Make sure you tell us how it turned out.


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## begreen (Sep 29, 2010)

Fix the baffle first.


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## burleymike (Sep 29, 2010)

I know all about draft problems.  The old grizzly insert we had did not work very well at all.  One of the first things I did when we bought the place was to extend the chimney 4' to increase draft.  The stove worked great until welds started breaking and the steel holder for the cat warped breaking the cat.

The other thing that helped me was a wind directional cap we have some big spruce trees to the west of us and the way the wind comes off the trees it would make a big downdraft and we would get smoke puffing in the house for a second.  The wind directional cap fixed that as well as it prevented the wind from increasing the draft too much.


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## oilstinks (Sep 29, 2010)

I have to see 450+ stove top and flue temps to get a good secondary burn. I have draft problems and sometimes i have to crack open the door(just loosen the handle and break the seal) to get the stove going good. Once everything gets good and hot no problems. I only get about 45min secondary burn usually. I pick out oak pallets at my job and that helps. I does take a while to learn these stoves. My non epa  in my building will burn what ever and run away if im not careful but it burns about twice the wood too. One more stick of pipe helped me. It wasnt magical but it did help. Hopefully ill have an outside air intake kit to help with draft this year. Dont get discouraged you will learn the stove. I honestly believe you can take the same stove with the same amount of pipe in two different locations and you will have to relearn how to run the stove. Like i said i have better draft 50 yards accross my property. My draft sucks (as in bad) if out side temps are jut in the 40s. The colder the better.


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## EL DRIFTO (Dec 24, 2010)

~*~vvv~*~ said:
			
		

> just plug the 2ndary air intake hole with al foil & it'll stop the airflow if u want. & post back if u get better results, eh? EPA stove aint burned with same procedure as non-EPA stove



My stove has a 3" inlet for the dampened front lower air hole & upper door air flush, but the 4 tubes get their air unmetered through a different manifold inlet...

Has anyone tried valving that down with some HVAC tin or something to make it adjustable, to like 50% ??

i tried to get a pic but it failed, it just seems if i burn less wood slower, the tubes let a bit too much air through, thx in advance & Merry Christmas

first post of the year


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## EL DRIFTO (Dec 24, 2010)

Well it seems to be working so far ~30% of the original opening size.  Seemed to help around 50%, but 30% has a single split burning with slow flames.  I also have the front damper a bit tighter & it doesn't seem to be letting all of the heat out.  The flue temps are also staying up...thx


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## cottonwoodsteve (Dec 24, 2010)

I did some thinking and interesting experiments on EPA verses pre EPA stoves. My observations and experiments are based on having an old tiny potbelly stove, a friends box wood stove, my EPA wood stove and my totally usless EPA fireplace insert.
In normal wood stoves the fire radiates to the surrounding metal. Then the metal radiates to the ambient air. 
Other heat goes up the stove pipe and radiates off of the pipe. The stove pipe heats quickly and starts radiating heat before the stove does.
In an EPA stove the whole inside is lined with firebrick. It is like lining the whole thing with hi temp styro-foam. No heat gets to the metal.
I have done some experiments by removing a brick on one side of my EPA stove. At a given fire size the metal on the outside was 250 degrees but had a 520 degree jump in the area where I removed one firebrick. The fire brick reflect the heat and prevent the metal sides from absorbing it.
This makes the fire hotter and keeps the smoke hotter so it can burn better. The hot fire and burning smoke reduce the emissions 50% ( my imaginary data). But now you have to burn a fire twice as big to get some heat out of your highly insulated fire area. With an old style stove you could see the charcole glowing almost white hot and burn down to nothing. Now with the new "improved" EPA stoves you will be lucky to see the coals almost bright red and there is a lot of chuncks left  the next morning. What are the most efficient stoves? Pellet stoves. They put all of the air at the base of the fire. they have no secondary burn tubes. Basically EPA stoves make a low temperature fire and then if everything is perfect it lights off the smoke it created. You will see EPA stoves rated by efficiency of burn and lack of smoke . You will never see a rating of efficiency of BTU's per pound of wood compared to a non-EPA stove. If you put air at the base of the fire you can burn anything even slightly wet wood and chimney length didn't really mater that much. With an EPA stove the moisture has to be just right. The chimney has to be designed by NASA. The fire size has to be just right. One wood stick too little and the secondery smoke light off won't happen. When everything is perfect they burn very clean but don't give off much heat relative to the amount of wood. 
If everything isn't perfect they smoke more than a a non-EPA stove. 
With a fire place insert you don't even get heat off of the stove pipe since it has to be insulated and in the chimney. 
That's my experience, experiments and opinions.  Just like in the '70s when they reduced the car emissions by 20% per gallon but had to burn 20% more to make the the car move. Hopefully the next gererations of EPA stoves will get more heat along with the low emissions. Low emission wood burning is a good idea, but unfortumately the government got involved.


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## precaud (Dec 24, 2010)

No offense, but the way you're conceiving of this is WAY too simplistic, using terms like "firebrick" as if all firebrick are the same, comparing a pot belly (designed to burn coal) to an EPA wood stove (ridiculous at best), and this:



> In an EPA stove the whole inside is lined with firebrick. It is like lining the whole thing with hi temp styro-foam. *No heat gets to the metal.*


If you really think the bricks don't pass any heat to the metal, I challenge you to reach into your stove and remove a firebrick with your bare hands while the stove is operating, and then come back and tell us (i.e. type out) what it felt like.

Do a search for "insulation materials" and you'll see a thread where this was delved into in detail and showed exactly the opposite of your opinion.

Methinks your anti-government disposition is clouding your reasoning.


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## laynes69 (Dec 24, 2010)

I'll say this in comparison to our old woodfurnace. I would load close to 6 cu.ft of wood to the baffle to wake up to very few coals, and a house thats 68* and have the central furnace running. With the epa furnace, I load 3 Cu.Ft. of wood wake up later to a 70* house and a better coal bed. Damn that government... :lol:


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## EL DRIFTO (Dec 24, 2010)

that just makes it sound like everything the gov does sucks

All I've had is this stove & it feels like the heat comes out of it

I could of got a similar effect if I put in a adj flue damper & let the stove air adj wide open to keep it no more restricted than the secondary air inlet...

I may have too strong a draft for some reason & a little slowdown is in order on my setup maybe.
Either way, I need less wood to keep coals going now with the 70% restriction, single splits are relightable for 3 hours, instead of every hour or it goes out.

Another thing is that the stove was still warm this morning, there was so much air going through the dam thing, all the heat was going right out & imagine the make up air coming back into the house.

Usually the bottom front corner of the stove starts to get cold & loose heat in a few hours, now it's staying warm

it just feels like someone shut an open window inside the stove & I'm feeding less wood in to keep the house warm

this forum rocks
Merry Christmas


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## boatboy63 (Dec 24, 2010)

Considering it has been nearly 3 months since last update from the OP, I would love to know if he added another section or 2 of pipe and if it helped. He said he was going to but never gave an update.  Don't leave us hangin man...inquiring minds want to know.


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## rdust (Dec 24, 2010)

cottonwoodsteve said:
			
		

> With an EPA stove the moisture has to be just right. The chimney has to be designed by NASA. The fire size has to be just right. One wood stick too little and the secondery smoke light off won't happen. When everything is perfect they burn very clean but don't give off much heat relative to the amount of wood.
> If everything isn't perfect they smoke more than a a non-EPA stove.



Oh boy :lol:  It's really sad you've had this experience with an EPA stove.  Second year in my stove pretty much runs itself.  Damn the EPA for wanting me to burn seasoned wood!


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## cottonwoodsteve (Dec 24, 2010)

Responding to what Percard said;
I burned wood not coal in the potbelly stove.
To do gas welding and brazing I put one layer, 1 inch thick, fire brick on an outside wood table. I bought the firebrick at the wood stove store. If I do some small area welding the center top surface of the brick will momentairly turn red hot. Yet it won't burn the wood below. After this I can pick up the brick by the edges with my bare fingers. I couldn't do this if I used 1/4 inch steel like a stove has. Also the heat would burn the wood table below very quickly. So I stand by my statement that the firebricks prevent the heat from coming out to the stove sides. Yes if you heat them long enough and hot enough the heat will eventually come through. If you read the stove instructions, and advertising etc., they clearly state the firebricks reflect the heat back into the fire to help the burn efficiency. If they are reflecting the heat back then obviously it is not coming out to the side metal. 
Also EPA stoves have to be operated perfectly. If a high wind blow the tarp off of the wood or blows the rain into the carport where some of the wood is, the surface may get wet. In a normal stove this surface moisture is not a problem. In an EPA stove the whole process crashes. I do not always have perfect wood, I do not always load things "just right". If I put that much trouble into making a fire in a non-EPA stove would be smoke free too, but get twice the heat.
For an insert the code requires that the liner be insulated, at least the lower part so the hot liner doesn't crack the chimney tiles. These are the same chimney tiles that worked with the old fireplace just fine. The fact is when your EPA stove chimney liner gets so hot it can damage the inside of your chimney, maybe you are loosing a lot of heat up the chimney?
I highly recommend you try my experiment of removing one brick along a long sidewall and see how much hotter that area is. Scan it with an IR temp probe and see the difference.  
Nowhere re in the manuals or advertising did it say "these things are very finicky, if you don't do everything perfectly, you will be sorry". That page was missing from everything I read. I think most people here are stove hobbyist that enjoy caring for and feeding their stove. I just wanted to throw in some wood and get some heat just like the older stoves were capable of. I did not want to to make a hobby of it. I have other things to do.


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## rdust (Dec 25, 2010)

cottonwoodsteve said:
			
		

> Nowhere re in the manuals or advertising did it say "these things are very finicky, if you don't do everything perfectly, you will be sorry". That page was missing from everything I read. I think most people here are stove hobbyist that enjoy caring for and feeding their stove. I just wanted to throw in some wood and get some heat just like the older stoves were capable of. I did not want to to make a hobby of it. I have other things to do.



I have no interest in babysitting my stove.  I load it three times a day and it takes me about a half hour each load to get it dialed in how I want it.  

I do agree with the EPA stoves wanting seasoned wood.  I now have three years + put up so I won't have to deal with terrible burning wood anymore.  If it gets wet or snowed on I bring the next load into the house so the surface moisture will be gone before I load the stove again.  All and all a pretty simple process.


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## precaud (Dec 25, 2010)

rdust, it's generally fruitless to argue with someone who has a "stupid if I want to" mentality about something.


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## Renovation (Dec 25, 2010)

yardatwork said:
			
		

> Everything everyone is saying about the draft does make sense now.  The old EPA stove always burnt really hot making the stove pipe ho,t forcing everything up and out.  Since the new EPA stoves REBURN what was once wasted heat I can see why the stove pipe isn't as hot now.  With less stove pipe heat = less forced draft.  My old non-EPA had draft holes right in front and no distance to travel.  Like mentioned, my new stove pulls from the back of the stove and will need more draft to get the air going.  I should have realized this when the glass on my wood burner door wasn't staying as clean as this new "air washed" technology explained.
> 
> There's a science to everything and that's why I came here.  I was born and raise on non-EPA stoves so I needed some guidance on these fancy new stoves!  Thanks everyone!



At the risk of dragging this thread back to the original topic (And this coming from me, one of the biggest transgressors.) let me say to YardAtWork:  I salute you!   :coolsmile: 

Good for you for listening to reason and changing your mind--two admirable qualities.

As I read this thread I was thinking "Oh Lordie, he's doomed.  His chimney is inadequate, but he's too stubborn to realize it."  I was even working on a stinging reply, but thought "Ah, better wait and see how this turns out."  I'm glad I did.

I've seen BrotherBart give that advice over and over, and it fix people's problems over and over.  EPA stoves need a stronger draft, and some folks are just unlucky in having a flue that,  for whatever reason doesn't make the grade.

If you fix your chimney and stick with it, I guarantee that the folks here will have you burning like a champ, even if you have to fix a couple of things.

Again, congrats for being willing to listen.  But I guess you don't need my congratulations--your stove is going to reward you soon enough.

Merry Christmas!


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## Renovation (Dec 25, 2010)

cottonwoodsteve said:
			
		

> I did some thinking and interesting experiments on EPA verses pre EPA stoves.
> [snip]



Understanding that we both mean well, I will respectfully say that your words make it clear that you do not understand EPA stoves yet.  It's not my job to convince you or teach you, but I do hope to plant the seed of that thought in your mind, in case it helps you later.

Once you understand stoves,  you'll realize that EPA stoves are in fact more efficient than non, _precisely_ because they burn the smoke.   The downside is they need strong-drafting chimneys, dry wood, and a little finesse to run.

Again, I'm not going to convince you, but if you're inclined, click around the Wiki and faqs and see for yourself.

HTH, and Merry Christmas!


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## Renovation (Dec 25, 2010)

EL DRIFTO said:
			
		

> it just feels like someone shut an open window inside the stove & I'm feeding less wood in to keep the house warm
> 
> this forum rocks
> Merry Christmas



Agreed, and Merry Christmas!

Someone is being a little bit naughty, and playing with his stove. 

That seems to be the irony of an EPA non cat--you need a good draft to run them *and* they don't let you turn the air all the way down.

Personally, what you're doing sounds to me like good clean fun, as long as you keep an eye it and your wits about you, lol.   It sounds to me like the tweekie sort of control that  is great for some, but would hopelessly confuse others.  But I'm no expert, and others are welcome to correct me.

In any case, Happy Holidaze!


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## EL DRIFTO (Dec 26, 2010)

RenovationGeorge said:
			
		

> ing sounds to me like good clean fun


  :lol: 

i would not recommend it to anyone, amateurs are best off letting the full volume of air go through there, so no matter what it comes out pure oxygen

yeah, a little too tight & the stove doesn't burn clean, i opened it up to 40% & everything is staying clean now

when right, everything should stay clean & secondary burn should seem robust & slower, not like a breeze in the ceiling

after a month or two of burning, i'll schedule a chimney banging load with the air open & stand by, if it bangs @ all...

friend with the stove bricks, think of it this way, only the bottom half of the stove is lined with bricks, i can touch the lower half of the stove some of the time, but the top half gets hot fast, like off paper alone & i'd venture to say all the btu convection must be & would have to be coming from there, the top of the stove is way hotter than the floor on any of them i'd imagine...

when the epa stove is on, it's like a solid box of fire :thumbsup:


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## EL DRIFTO (Jan 3, 2011)

After a look around here, it seems relevant to mention my chimney is 18' outside, excluding the cap, 90 & piece going through the wall.  I just put it in to code.  It's starting to make sense...

I'm probably not going to put in a flue damper cause the stove is working fine.  But to not mislead, I think the "air tubes" are limited flow by the outlets, the secondary ~1"x2" inlet doesn't start to change the flow until ~50% restriction.

I'm glad I got to learn on this pita...

If you split the wood thinner, it burns, if you put more in the stove, it burns hotter
I've learned to run the stove hot on the coldest days & I can keep my NG furnace off, otherwise I can't really burn hot/clean enough.
It seems like everybody is getting loads of creosote out of their chimneys, I wonder if that's keeping more pollutants in the chimney & out of the air ?

I've been able to run the stove this season without any additional splitting, I rented a log splitter & split it all ~7 montre ago.  They're about 1 - 4" thick splits.

The wood aint gray & still smells green, now that I'm into the middle of the pile, but it can be loaded to 700 flue temps & is working fine as I've never put wood into the thing that wasn't alive the same year

Happy New Year


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## yardatwork (Feb 15, 2011)

Well...I'm back with an update.  I've stuck by this EPA stove for far too long.  I have had no luck, I have added additional chimney length, I have used dry wood, and I have had ZERO luck.  It just isn't producing any heat.  Today I removed the fiber board, added a damper, added a baffle...went back to the days of the old school wood burner.  Left the burn tubes in because...well...they won't come out.  The welds from factory were off and I can't slide them out.  SO...burn tubes still in, modified, and fire going like mad right now...and...holy crap...FINALLY...heat, heat, heat.  Sorry guys...I tried to follow what you all said.  But...now the flames are hitting the metal and the metal is heating up and producing.  I truely believe the fiber board is the whole problem...it prevents any heat from getting to the top of the stove.  It acts more like a shield than anything.  There have been times when that fiber board were glowing bright orange...and...I could still put my hand, almost touch, on top of the stove.  With the mods the burn tubes are working like they never have before.  I've never seen them blowing like they are.  I bought the wood burner to heat my home.  If my modification is the only way for it to heat my home...well...then I'm fine with that.  I've looked outside at the chimney and there isn't any yellowish smoke billowing out...like the old non-epa stove I had.  So even with my mod...this thing still seems to burn cleaner.


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## cottonwoodsteve (Mar 3, 2011)

I agree with you that the whole EPA thing is a joke.
My opinion is people think they are great because they never opperated an old style correctly.
If all of this baffles, bricks and afterburners are so great why don't pellet stoves have them?
An old fashion stove can burn without smoke.
What is the purpose of the secondary burn tubes? They burn the smoke from the air starved fire.
Pellet stoves put more air on the bottom of the fire, burn it correctly and don't have any smoke or need for secondaries.

Experiments you should try.
Try putting an air inlet from ash dump cover area. About 3/4 inch pipe with 1/4 inch holes going along bottom of bricks.
Turn side bricks sideways and angle them in slightly. This will move things toward the hot center and expose more metal for heat transfer.

In the future people will look back and recall the catalytic converters and secondary burn tube designs as crude and backwards.
Hopefully future wood stove design 3.0 will be better. 

Now I have to take shelter because the pro EPA people are now at the door with torches and pitchforks.


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## begreen (Mar 3, 2011)

The vast majority of folks are doing just fine with their EPA stoves. Personally, having both, I wince now when I burn the non-EPA stove. In spite of having dry wood, it smokes a whole lot more than the EPA stove until the wood has mostly outgassed. Our EPA stove is one of the easiest starting, most satisfying burners I've had in over 30 years of burning. No complaints here, well except for a funky ash pan design.


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## snowtime (Mar 3, 2011)

Well cottonwoodsteve you mention we do not know how to operate an old style pre epa stove. I will take that to mean you do not know how to operate an epa stove. 
 I am one example of hundreds of burners who have operated pre epa stoves. We are snowed in every year and wood is our only source of heat and cooking. I currently have a T6[epa] and a non epa cookstove [pioneermaid] a non epa fisher in greenhouse and an old non epa cookstove in outside kitchen. 
 With many decades of experience I took a chance on a new epa and guess what I found I had to learn how to operate a stove all over again. Once someone relies on the overwhelming examples of success on this site one learns its the operator not the stove. If you have been doing something a certain way for years then it takes some effort to realize your old ways do not work any more. It's not only us old dogs that have a hard time learning new tricks but my sons have taught me that it's not exclusive to age.
 I have reduced the wood necessary to heat my home and I live in cold country not like you. Right now it's March 3 and -30 outside. Guess who needs to know how to use their stove .
 Every once and a while someone comes along and says that this stove or that will not work even though many here have that stove. These people never learn to operate their stoves properly and usually sell them. I can remember one who thought my T6 would not get hot and they could not heat their home. Needless to say we try to convince newcomers to spend the effort to get it right for the rewards are very satisfying.
 One last thought there are hundreds of different EPA stoves. They do not all work the same and to lump them all together also shows ignorance.


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## SmokingAndPoking (Mar 4, 2011)

If you can't figure out how to get the burn tubes out, I'm pretty sure you shouldn't be trying any other unauthorized modifications Scooter.


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## yardatwork (Mar 4, 2011)

SmokingAndPoking said:
			
		

> If you can't figure out how to get the burn tubes out, I'm pretty sure you shouldn't be trying any other unauthorized modifications Scooter.



I know how to get the burn tubes out.  If you'd re-read my message, the spacing/welding is off and there isn't enough distance to slide them out.  There's one screw and a simple slide and twist and they should come out.  Mine don't.


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## Install fire 1 (Mar 4, 2011)

I hope you have a certified clearance with all those modifications.

If something happens, god forbid, good luck getting coverage if you are running the stove without the proper pieces.


The stove will get damaged as you will overheat and stress the metals with out  the baffle installed.


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## BrowningBAR (Mar 4, 2011)

cottonwoodsteve said:
			
		

> I agree with you that the whole EPA thing is a joke.
> My opinion is people think they are great because they never opperated an old style correctly.
> If all of this baffles, bricks and afterburners are so great why don't pellet stoves have them?
> An old fashion stove can burn without smoke.
> ...




Good lord...


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## greythorn3 (Mar 4, 2011)

i just wanna watch the secondary burn! i still love my old tech blazeking, but these 2ndairy burn facinate me! i avoid cats like the black plague tho! as i know thats just a money making scam.


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## Install fire 1 (Mar 4, 2011)

BrowningBAR said:
			
		

> cottonwoodsteve said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Good lord is right! It's always fun trying to find new ways to ruin a perfectly good stove. Not to mention how to burn your house down.

It's amazing how narrow sighted people can be. I have burned both as well, and hands down would take an EPA over an old dragon.

The clearances are much better now, they are proven cleaner, and use less wood to produce more heat since there is so much energy in the gases and smoke.

8 out of 10 old pre-epa stoves i pull out, are full of cracks and have been brutally over fired. See it everyday. 

Maybe the world should just get rid of the internet as well, technology sucks!LOL!

Good Greif.


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## certified106 (Mar 5, 2011)

greythorn3 said:
			
		

> i just wanna watch the secondary burn! i still love my old tech blazeking, but these 2ndairy burn facinate me! i avoid cats like the black plague tho! as i know thats just a money making scam.



I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and hope that was just a joke.
There are monumental amounts of stupidity flowing from this whole thread!

*I should have read your sig and seen that you have a BK Sorry about that :red:


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## KTLM (Mar 5, 2011)

Yes,stupidity,but entertaining. A soap opera/ comedy special. Is this how it all ends or does it continue next week. Wait, I'll be back. I just need to go get my cutting torch and modify my stove some more.


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## yardatwork (Mar 5, 2011)

I will give ANYONE the chance to come to my house and get this stove to work and I will watch you all eat crow.  This stove is crap and doesn't work the way it should.  I bought a stove to heat me house...the stove DOES NOT do that.  The burn tubes and stove were manufactured where the tubes DO NOT come out (but yes they should according to the manual).  I did not buy this stove to sit by it for an hour or two or three and adjusting the air by 1/32 or 1/16 or 1/8 or 1/4 difference.  I did not buy this stove to babysit it.  Just because these EPA stoves burn cleaner and doesn't mean they produce more heat.  Burning cleaner air DOES NOT equal a better heating device.  If these are to burn the smoke and blah, blah, blah...then why not recommend putting a damper on the stove pipe and choke off all the smoke.  Let's just keep recycling all the smoke.  Not everyone has the time or space to have cords of woods stacked up for two years so that it's totally dry.  Some people might have to buy a cord here or there and if there is a single percent of moisture these stoves won't work properly...to me...that's NOT a better design or more efficient...it's MORE HASSLE.  I'm by no means a professional burner like many of you are.  I'm just the average Joe, like I bet so many others are who own these new stoves.  I have a full time job and running this stove isn't it.  I modified my stove to fit my life and to do what it was purchased to do...HEAT!


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## Battenkiller (Mar 5, 2011)

KTLM said:
			
		

> Yes,stupidity,but entertaining. A soap opera/ comedy special. Is this how it all ends or does it continue next week. Wait, I'll be back. I just need to go get my cutting torch and modify my stove some more.



I missed this thread the first time around.  The gods must be smiling on this one to have survived so long.  Maybe it's the entertainment value, but the mods have pulled the plug on much more informative threads than this one recently.  Time to put a bullet in this thread's ear, I say.

BTW my sympathies to the OP.  He had a problem, he asked for help here, he got ridiculous advice from all quarters, he gratefully took the advice at his expense (it didn't work), and now is getting blasted for modifying his stove so that it produces the heat he needs.  We all need these things to produce heat, not to be stands to put the potted ivy and pics of the kids on.


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## begreen (Mar 5, 2011)

In all the years I have been on the forum this is the first time I remember this question being asked. Now, the question has been asked and answered. Reverting the stove is not a normal course of action. Usually folks fix the source of the problem and not a symptom.


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