# Anyone familiar with a Ventilation device called EZ-Breathe



## Seasoned Oak

A friend of mine is about to pull the trigger on a device called an Ez-Breathe. its basically a squirrel cage fan in a box that sits on your basement floor and ventilates cool damp air from the floor to the outside.It claims there is no need for a fresh air intake. It relies on cracks around windows and doors(not very scientific) Worst part is it cost about $1500. A lot for a $50 fan in a box. It does have a humidistat in it so it turns off if tha air reaches a certain humidity. I think a better move would be to invest a few more dollars in  a good air recovery system that also extracts the heat or cold from exiting air and provides a dedicated fresh air intake.


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## dougstove

I had a competing device (VenMar, I think, much cheaper) in a previous house.
In my climate it was a bad idea, because it pulled warm wet summer air down into the basement, where the cool surfaces caused condensation.


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## DBoon

This is basically a waste of $1500.  The marketing message is something like "dehumidify your basement for pennies a day", but all it does is pull air in from the outside to replace the air in the basement.  If your friend needs dehumidification, he should spend $200 on a dehumidifier, or $1000 on a heat pump water heater. If your friend needs to to circulate the basement air so that it isn't stale, then a simple fan between upstairs and downstairs will work just as well.


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## begreen

A decent dehumidifier is going to cost a whole lot less and will do a better job. We have one in the greenhouse (Frigidaire I think) and it works great.


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## Seasoned Oak

DBoon said:


> This is basically a waste of $1500. The marketing message is something like "dehumidify your basement for pennies a day", but all it does is pull air in from the outside to replace the air in the basement. If your friend needs dehumidification, he should spend $200 on a dehumidifier, or $1000 on a heat pump water heater. If your friend needs to to circulate the basement air so that it isn't stale, then a simple fan between upstairs and downstairs will work just as well.


Im trying to talk him out of it gently,but he seems to be convinced by the sales pitch,also the part about if your not happy with it they will buy it back within a year. They might not be in business in a year.


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## daveswoodhauler

I had to install an air exchanger when I pulled the permit for my basement renovation, and I got this one one line for about $330.
http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wc...roupId=119516&surfModel=FV-04VE1&displayTab=O

Basically, it brings in air from outside and also exhausts air from the inside, and I am hoping that I won't have to run the dehumidifier as much. I should have the basement done in a month or so, so I will post back on how it works, pros/cons, etc.

$1500 seem like an aweful lot of money for just a fan to bring in air


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## begreen

There are lots of scam products on the market that add little value. The Eden Heat room heater is an example. It does the job no better than a $29 space heater. Yet it's pushed as a real energy saver.  A fool and his money are easily parted.


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## Seasoned Oak

begreen said:


> There are lots of scam products on the market that add little value. The Eden Heat room heater is an example. It does the job no better than a $29 space heater. Yet it's pushed as a real energy saver. A fool and his money are easily parted.


Yea BG now they have the "new and improved" radient wave or some crap eden pure sayin it dont take the moisture out of the air.They are tryin to get the same victims a second time around to  upgrade.


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## sloeffle

daveswoodhauler said:


> I had to install an air exchanger when I pulled the permit for my basement renovation, and I got this one one line for about $330.
> http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wc...roupId=119516&surfModel=FV-04VE1&displayTab=O
> 
> Basically, it brings in air from outside and also exhausts air from the inside, and I am hoping that I won't have to run the dehumidifier as much. I should have the basement done in a month or so, so I will post back on how it works, pros/cons, etc.
> 
> $1500 seem like an aweful lot of money for just a fan to bring in air



daveswoodhauler,

I have never heard of having to install a vent before in the basement. Is this done to possibly mitigate a known radon issue in your area ?

In Ohio they generally will install a fan outside of the house that is tied in the curtain drain of the house if they suspect a radon issue in the basement.

Scott


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## daveswoodhauler

sloeffle said:


> daveswoodhauler,
> 
> I have never heard of having to install a vent before in the basement. Is this done to possibly mitigate a known radon issue in your area ?
> 
> In Ohio they generally will install a fan outside of the house that is tied in the curtain drain of the house if they suspect a radon issue in the basement.
> 
> Scott


 
Hi Scott,

Yes, here in Massachusetts the building code requires you to have so much natural lighting and ventilation for living area in the basement. For natural ventilation it is 4% of the floor area, and since we only had 2 tiny basement windows and a bulkhead door, we did not meet the requirements...hence we had to install some mechanical ventilation. Funny you should mention the radon issue, as just last month we had to install a remidation device (piping and fan) to remove the high radon in our basement. (levels were ranging from 12-15pcl).

At first I didn't want to install the venting, but with my 3 kids being down there a lot once the room is done, and the basement can get humid, so I am hopinh that this will help with some air flow and perhaps cut down on the use of the dehumidifier.

David


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## sloeffle

David,

My wife and I but an addition on our house last year with a full basement and we do not ( this is both good and bad ) have any building codes where we live at. Our basement does have a double door but no windows or any other type of ventilation. Do you have any thoughts so far on the fan ? Our basement was not built super tight, but does have closed cell foam insulation around the band board and closed cell foam on the outside of the block. We still get the "musty" smell in the basement and I have been thinking about ways to efficiently get fresh air down there.

Scott


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## Seasoned Oak

sloeffle said:


> David,
> 
> My wife and I but an addition on our house last year with a full basement and we do not ( this is both good and bad ) have any building codes where we live at. Our basement does have a double door but no windows or any other type of ventilation. Do you have any thoughts so far on the fan ? Our basement was not built super tight, but does have closed cell foam insulation around the band board and closed cell foam on the outside of the block. We still get the "musty" smell in the basement and I have been thinking about ways to efficiently get fresh air down there.
> 
> Scott


I would go with the real deal which is a fresh air exchanger ,not cheap but does what its supposed to and also extracts the energy ( either hot or cold)from the conditioned air.


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## daveswoodhauler

sloeffle said:


> David,
> 
> My wife and I but an addition on our house last year with a full basement and we do not ( this is both good and bad ) have any building codes where we live at. Our basement does have a double door but no windows or any other type of ventilation. Do you have any thoughts so far on the fan ? Our basement was not built super tight, but does have closed cell foam insulation around the band board and closed cell foam on the outside of the block. We still get the "musty" smell in the basement and I have been thinking about ways to efficiently get fresh air down there.
> 
> Scott


 
Hi Scott, Well, right now the fan is installed into the ceiling, but I don't have it wired up as of yet. Need to do some wiring and finish the walls and ceiling before I have the room completed and the fan running. Once I do, I will post back with some results as I think a lot of folks here have either spare rooms/playrooms in the basement, and I am also curious to see how the unit performs and perhaps cut down on some of the humidity.
Do you get a musty smell even with running a dehumidifier? (Ps. wanted to post last night, but for some reason I can't post on my kindle...of to the how to forum)
David


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## velvetfoot

You're bringing in warm humid air from the outside.  Once it hits the cooler basement, the air will only get more humid.


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## daveswoodhauler

velvetfoot said:


> You're bringing in warm humid air from the outside. Once it hits the cooler basement, the air will only get more humid.


 The unit has an exchange capillary core that recovers heat energy and moisture. Like I posted earlier, I will post back with some results when it is up and running to see if it is working as designed.


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## Seasoned Oak

daveswoodhauler said:


> The unit has an exchange capillary core that recovers heat energy and moisture. Like I posted earlier, I will post back with some results when it is up and running to see if it is working as designed.


Just what does this system cost if i may ask?


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## daveswoodhauler

I picked one up for about $320 or so...here is the link from where I purchased:

http://www.iaqsource.com/product.php?product=171090

Like I said earlier, I had to purchase one of these units in order to get the ok from the building inspector...I have mixed feelings on it, but will have to wait and see once it is up and running.


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## btuser

I was curious an went to check out EZ Breathe.  I've talked to operator Rick and operator Debbie. I asked for a technical document or even a parts diagram to explain the inner workings of the magic box. Apparently I may be suffering from Sick Home Syndrome.

Gotta love it. Heck, I'm the proud owner of a Bose Wave radio! Amazing sound from a $10 speaker and about 20 cents worth of stamped plastic.


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## btuser

"Help me operator Ronny.  I've read something on your website and think I could be suffering from SICK HOME SYNDOME.  What do I do?"

I am getting absolutely no work done today!


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## sloeffle

daveswoodhauler said:


> Hi Scott, Well, right now the fan is installed into the ceiling, but I don't have it wired up as of yet. Need to do some wiring and finish the walls and ceiling before I have the room completed and the fan running. Once I do, I will post back with some results as I think a lot of folks here have either spare rooms/playrooms in the basement, and I am also curious to see how the unit performs and perhaps cut down on some of the humidity.
> Do you get a musty smell even with running a dehumidifier? (Ps. wanted to post last night, but for some reason I can't post on my kindle...of to the how to forum)
> David


 
David,

No musty smell when a dehumidifier is running. Just that typical basement smell most of the time. It gets the musty smell when the humidity gets higher outside. Like others, I hate making the electric company richer so I was looking for a cheaper alternative than running a dehumidifier or a whole house air exchanger.

Thanks,

Scott


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## daveswoodhauler

Scott, feel the same way with having the dehumidifier running all the time. Not sure if this unit will help or not, but can post back in a month or so or send you a PM on my thoughts for the unit.
Good luck,
David


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## Seasoned Oak

Having air exit out through the basement may be a very good idea,(except during the heating season and you have a open flame heating appliance there and you sabotage your draft) i just think there are cheaper ways to do it than a $1500 fan box. And warm weather operation during times of high humidity may make the problem worse.


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## daveswoodhauler

Its got a built in damper that closes at certain temps. Then will run on exhsust only.Again, the cost was 320 not 1500.


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## semipro

begreen said:


> The Eden Heat room heater is an example. It does the job no better than a $29 space heater. Yet it's pushed as a real energy saver..


 
Ha!  I was thinking the exact same thing when I read this post.


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## Seasoned Oak

daveswoodhauler said:


> Its got a built in damper that closes at certain temps. Then will run on exhsust only.Again, the cost was 320 not 1500.


I was referring to the EZ breathe at $1500, actually the one you are installing seems like its worth the money at $320


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## btuser

Operator Randal just hung up on me.   Apparently these units have not been tested for their efficacy against radioactive sea monkeys. 


I'm going to Hell.


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## daveswoodhauler

daveswoodhauler said:


> I picked one up for about $320 or so...here is the link from where I purchased:
> 
> http://www.iaqsource.com/product.php?product=171090
> 
> Like I said earlier, I had to purchase one of these units in order to get the ok from the building inspector...I have mixed feelings on it, but will have to wait and see once it is up and running.


 
Well, got it wired up and running....and appears to be working well. I was a bit skeptical about bringing in damp air from the outside, but right now according to the humidity sensor I have hanging directly below the unit, its reading 47% whereas the reading outside is closer to 85%.

Once the summer gets here with hotter temps and typical humidity, I'll post back.


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## TradEddie

daveswoodhauler said:


> its reading 47% whereas the reading outside is closer to 85%.



What are the temperatures inside and outside?

I'm at a complete loss to understand how a system without a compressor can dehumidify a room if the temperature and humidity outside are higher. Can anyone explain?

TE


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## woodgeek

If the air get's pulled from the air-conditioned house above, it will help (but work the AC above a little harder).

If the air get's pulled directly from the outside (or, e.g. from an attached garage) it will make things worse.

The folks with air conditioned house and problem basements usually have the second case and not the former.  So all this is a big waste of time.  

In a house with an airsealed basement and attic, Central AC is cheap to run (outside AZ and FL), and if the basement is damp, just provide some AC supply, or put a return down there, and it will require less energy than a dehumidifer.


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## TradEddie

woodgeek said:


> In a house with an airsealed basement and attic, Central AC is cheap to run (outside AZ and FL), and if the basement is damp, just provide some AC supply, or put a return down there, and it will require less energy than a dehumidifer.



My basement humidity issues were eliminated when i took a serious effort at air sealing: Bilco door, the rim joist and sill. A lot of effort, but very little cost. Insulating the walls helped a little too. My unfinished area now runs at about 70%@66F in the worst of Summer, and although that's high, its stable, and there are no surfaces anywhere near the corresponding dewpoint (about 55F).

The only way bringing "fresh" warm humid air into a cold basement will help eliminate mold is by diluting out the smell, possibly even taking some mold spores away. The actual problem of condensed moisture is made worse.

TE


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## Seasoned Oak

If you run these air moving devices at night when the outside humidity is 75-89% you will just bring in more moisture than you are expelling. I have a basement ventilator in a commercial Building ,but i have it on a timer to just run during the day when the outside air is closer to 50% Humidity.


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## woodgeek

It's not that simple.  The dewpoint is often higher during the day than at night, indicating that the air contains more humidity.  The temperature dependence of RH obscures this fact, and is the source of much confusion.


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## TradEddie

woodgeek said:


> It's not that simple.  The dewpoint is often higher during the day than at night, indicating that the air contains more humidity.  The temperature dependence of RH obscures this fact, and is the source of much confusion.



Exactly, that's why dewpoint is a much better way to visualize the problem. Find the temperature of the coldest surface in your basement, if the outside dewpoint is below, or anywhere close to that, don't intentionally draw in outside air. One problem with these conversations, is that we're often from very different climates, giving advice that works well in one, to someone living in another. The same goes for these devices.

TE


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## Seasoned Oak

The weather channel gives the same dew point for the entire day,53 for a range of RH from 50-60 daytime to 80-90s at night.  I still tend to think its hard to benefit from drawing in 90% humidity air overnight. During the day temps are in the 80s and at night its about 60deg.


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## Floydian

Hi Randy,

take a look at the psychrometric chart and you'll see the difference between 85 with 60%RH and 60 with 90% RH.


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## woodgeek

I prefer: http://www.dpcalc.org/


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## BrotherBart

woodgeek said:


> I prefer: http://www.dpcalc.org/



I have used the heck out of that thing for a long time.


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## woodgeek

I would kill for an indoor outdoor wireless thermo that reported dewpoints rather than RH.


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## Seasoned Oak

woodgeek said:


> I prefer: http://www.dpcalc.org/


Great calculator ,super easy to figure. It shows im on the right track for my area by ventilating during the day
Bringing in nightime humid air would cause a mold risk and twice the metal corrosion vs no mold and half the metal corrosion for daytime air. Daytime ventilation does bring the humidity levels down as long as its not raining of just after a rain.


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## TradEddie

Seasoned Oak said:


> The weather channel gives the same dew point for the entire day,53 for a range of RH from 50-60 daytime to 80-90s at night.  I still tend to think its hard to benefit from drawing in 90% humidity air overnight. During the day temps are in the 80s and at night its about 60deg.



You are right that there's no benefit to bringing in 60F/90% air at night, but it's the exact same as bringing in 80F/45% air in daytime, so one can't be bad and the other good, they are likely both a bad idea.

For a stable weather pattern, the dewppint should not change, it's the same air heating up and cooling down. Only when a front comes by or when nighttime temperature cause dew, resulting in lower dewpoint the next day, does dewpoint change significantly. I'm still not sure how you figure its a good idea to ventilate during the day, unless you're a long way from this part of PA, or have no A/C in the rest of the house either. Right now its 88F/52%, that's a DP of 68F. If any part of your basement is below 68F, you're going to get condensation, never mind mold.

TE


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## TradEddie

I'm going to slightly modify my previous cynical position. Bringing warm air into a cool basement might help reduce the %RH, if it was enough heat to raise the temperature of the basement. It's not taking any moisture out, but raising the temperature so that the %RH falls. That would only work in very limited weather conditions and require a serious amount of air transfer. The numbers in that dpcalc website appear accurate, but it's mold/corrosion figures are for long term preservation of irreplaceable museum artifacts, are are consequently extremely conservative, and also not relevant to human health issues. If its valuable, don't put it in your basement anyway.

TE


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## Seasoned Oak

TradEddie said:


> You are right that there's no benefit to bringing in 60F/90% air at night, but it's the exact same as bringing in 80F/45% air in daytime, so one can't be bad and the other good, they are likely both a bad idea.
> TE


According to the scale at dpcalc.org there is a big difference.

80.6° F45%  Dp57°F21    Mold  risk =none      Metal Corrosion    8.3%
60.8°F90%   Dp 58°F254   Mold risk 4 days     Metal corrosion   20.7%

80 Deg air at Rh45 is much drier than    60 Deg at 90Rh             according to the chart


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## Seasoned Oak

This Bsmt (i_ts in a commercial bldg)_ is about 85% humidity at 68 DegF   After just 1 day of venting it came down 5% .  Im also trying to address areas where water gets in after a rain as time permits. This would go a long way to bringing the average Rh down and keeping it down.


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## TradEddie

Seasoned Oak said:


> 80 Deg air at Rh45 is much drier than    60 Deg at 90Rh according to the chart


No, they both contain almost the exact same quantity of water, that's why using DP is so much better for this purpose.
If you could get the basement as warm as the outside air by venting, you'd be correct, but as soon as that outside air cools in the basement, its relative humidity goes up. "Luckily" your basement is so humid that on most days, the outside air will have a lower dewpoint than the basement, and so you are correct that ventilation will be better, but you need to stop thinking in RH and look at the DP when you decide to ventilate. The other side of this is that your basement humidity cannot therefore be due to warm summer air, it is caused by ground/rain water. Anything you do to improve water seepage will give permanent returns. Exterior grading close to walls, and ensuring unclogged gutters can go a long way.

TE


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