# Any updated Pellet pricing now that we're into August?



## PutnamJct (Aug 3, 2006)

Oil/NG prices swinging like crazy, wondering about pellets?


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## saichele (Aug 3, 2006)

PutnamJct said:
			
		

> Oil/NG prices swinging like crazy, wondering about pellets?



Lignetics still hanging around $200/ton at Tractor Supply inthe Midwest.


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## Dougsey (Aug 3, 2006)

$241 at Lowes, $248 at Wal-Mart in Epping, NH.
$245-$275 at area stove shops.


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## Shane (Aug 3, 2006)

182-245/ton here in Casper, Wyoming.  Holding price since last year.


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## MountainStoveGuy (Aug 3, 2006)

Same here, we are at $240/ton and have plenty in stock. I dont anticipate a rate increase untill i have to buy more mid season. Of course casper and boulder are pretty close, i would expect the market to be about the same.


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## HarryBack (Aug 3, 2006)

$219/ton for New England, standard Grade, $239/ton Quality Premium Softwood, $239/ton Allegheny Premium Hardwood, $259/ton New England Premium Hardwood....I expect the price to remain stable till September, which is when the real procrastinators jump in, then all bets are off.


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## hearthtools (Aug 4, 2006)

I have to sell them at $265 
California


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## fletchtb (Aug 4, 2006)

Still $205 per ton at Vermont Pellet Stoves in Colchester, VT for Granules LG Premium Pellets


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## Roospike (Aug 4, 2006)

I just got off the phone with our two local farm stores and the price per ton of pellets is $190. 25 at Tractor Supply Co. and $190.75 per ton at Orscheln farm & home.


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## Choppedliver (Aug 7, 2006)

$3.60 a bag / $180.00 a ton, Plus tax until Sept 4th after that we are $4.10 a bag / $205.00 an ton plus tax. Denver, Colorado
We have a 1000 ton contract with are manufacture this Season and have already bought and sold a little over 200 tons of that contract


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## Revig (Aug 7, 2006)

$4.00/bag - $190.00/ton in Billings, MT  Atlas brand


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## Homefire (Aug 7, 2006)

$240 delivered 30 miles and stacked in the garage.
$ 120 a ton for corn in 100#  bags.
I burn 25% pellets 75% corn so the fuel cost works out to $140.40 a ton for winter fuel.


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## drizler (Aug 8, 2006)

Just saw hardwood pellets in tractor supply for $211 in Northern NY a few days ago..


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## roac (Aug 10, 2006)

At local D&B Supply (Farm Supply type store) they are having a pre-season pellet sale. Lignetics, $3.99 a bag or $162 a ton. Eureka wood pellets $3.69 a bag or 148.50 a ton.


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## Roospike (Aug 10, 2006)

roac said:
			
		

> At local D&B Supply (Farm Supply type store) they are having a pre-season pellet sale. Lignetics, $3.99 a bag or $162 a ton. Eureka wood pellets $3.69 a bag or 148.50 a ton.


And your from ..........................WHERE?  You can list your location in your profile.


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## roac (Aug 10, 2006)

Idaho. Pellet pricing here has to compete with really low NG and Electricity prices. Electricity just dropped 14% here earlier this summer.


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## Roospike (Aug 10, 2006)

roac said:
			
		

> Idaho. Pellet pricing here has to compete with really low NG and Electricity prices. Electricity just dropped 14% here earlier this summer.


 What is the cost per therm there for Natural Gas? 14% drop for electricity ? Awesome ......We would like to hope any lower prices hold ............ The Average price per thurm for NG here has been .82 cents . Last winter it was up to $1.27 for 2 weeks and averaged around $1.17


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## roac (Aug 10, 2006)

NG runs 1.07 per therm and that doesn't fluctuate much and electricity is 5.425 per KWH (Mostly all hydro generated). Add to that the fact you can purchase wood  permits from the National Forests for 10$ a cord. Two of the local National Forests give the first two cords away free. We have a lot of dead lodgepole.


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## Shane (Aug 10, 2006)

I'm interested to see what NG does this year.  When I calculate the costs of operation I always include the taxes, delivery fees etc.  Do you guys take those into consideration with your figures?  Our actual per therm price is around .80-.85 but when you add all the taxes its up to 1.00-1.10.  Even there it's still 7 cents an hour less to run a 45k btu gas stove than a 45k btu pellet stove.  And that's not considering gasoline to go get the pellets.  Pellets still beat propane by a long shot, but I really think that for pellet fuel to become truely mainstream it will have to break the NG price barrier again.  Let's face it there is work involved with buring pellets and people aren't going to be willing to put the extra effort into it if they're not saving.  I think first and foremost the supply must meet the demand, but secondly the price needs to come down somehow.


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## Roospike (Aug 10, 2006)

Shane said:
			
		

> I'm interested to see what NG does this year.  When I calculate the costs of operation I always include the taxes, delivery fees etc.  Do you guys take those into consideration with your figures?  Our actual per therm price is around .80-.85 but when you add all the taxes its up to 1.00-1.10.  Even there it's still 7 cents an hour less to run a 45k btu gas stove than a 45k btu pellet stove.  And that's not considering gasoline to go get the pellets.  Pellets still beat propane by a long shot, but I really think that for pellet fuel to become truely mainstream it will have to break the NG price barrier again.  Let's face it there is work involved with buring pellets and people aren't going to be willing to put the extra effort into it if they're not saving.  I think first and foremost the supply must meet the demand, but secondly the price needs to come down somehow.


True there .


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## richg (Aug 11, 2006)

Northwest NJ here. 200-210.


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## lizman (Aug 12, 2006)

Just bought 2 tons from local Walmart - Future Fuel from Missoula, MT - $247/ton. The bag say premium but no specs on ash, fines, or sodium content. Earlier this year in March I bought my first ton of pellets at Lowe's in Glenwood Springs since buying my Harman XXV  - Lignetics $168/ton. Currently same Lowe's has Lignetics for a whopping $313/ton  Seems on the western slope of Colorado someone is into making windfall profits. It is hard to believe that fuel costs would add up to an 86% increase in cost. At the $247/ton it will be close to natural gas for price per million BTU, at $313/ton, NG is a better deal. The pellet companys are going to price themselves out of the market if this keeps up.


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## Roospike (Aug 13, 2006)

> At the $247/ton it will be close to natural gas for price per million BTU, at $313/ton, NG is a better deal. The pellet companys are going to price themselves out of the market if this keeps up.


 Yep!


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## richg (Aug 13, 2006)

Lizman, 

Holy mackeral, that's insane! My only question at those prices would be, "Do I get a weekend alone with Shania Twain or Jessica Simpson?"


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## homebrewz (Aug 13, 2006)

Dry Creek @ $230/ ton in my local Agway near Albany, NY in July
now at $238/ton in August

Whatever pellets they sell at Tractor Supply have been going for $230/ton.


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## fletchtb (Aug 13, 2006)

Noticed on the special's board at Aubachon's in Jeffersonville, VT that they have pellets for $267.77 per ton. They did not list the brand.


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## Choppedliver (Aug 15, 2006)

I stopped by Lowes Last night and took a this crappy picture of there pellet  pricing
$6.97 a bag
$6.27 a bag if you buy a ton (50 bags) at a time.
That is sick
Lowes
Comubine,  Colorado (sw Denver Metro)


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## MountainStoveGuy (Aug 15, 2006)

Choppedliver said:
			
		

> I stopped by Lowes Last night and took a really crappy picture of there pricing
> $6.97 a bag
> $6.27 a bag if you buy a ton (50 bags) at a time.
> That is sick



Whooaaa  that is sick. I feel cheap all of a sudden. I had no idea the local market can bear 7 dollar pellets already, i thought things were more expdensive in boulder?


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## PutnamJct (Aug 15, 2006)

Amazing how the prices fluctuate...... Even if the manufacturer is close by to you. $313 a ton is sick.


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## BrotherBart (Aug 15, 2006)

Just a thought. Wouldn't pellet pricing be a good WIKI item? People could post brand, type, location and pricing as the season proceeds.


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## smirnov3 (Aug 15, 2006)

I think a lot of pellet retailors are relying on the consumer NOT shopping around. for instance, in Eastern Ma, I have found prices between $240/ ton (a retailor who is aggressivly growing his buisness) to $300 / ton (Stove dealer who figures at least one customer will be too dumb to buy his pellets elsewherec (ie "I thought Quadra-Fire stoves had to burn Quadra-Fire brand pellets")


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## MountainStoveGuy (Aug 15, 2006)

Anton Smirnov said:
			
		

> I think a lot of pellet retailors are relying on the consumer NOT shopping around. for instance, in Eastern Ma, I have found prices between $240/ ton (a retailor who is aggressivly growing his buisness) to $300 / ton (Stove dealer who figures at least one customer will be too dumb to buy his pellets elsewherec (ie "I thought Quadra-Fire stoves had to burn Quadra-Fire brand pellets")



well this is true to some extent, some stoves like high quality pellets, the quads, in there currnet design really like clean pellets. There new design will burn anything. I belive your harman will burn just about anything.


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## HarryBack (Aug 15, 2006)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Just a thought. Wouldn't pellet pricing be a good WIKI item? People could post brand, type, location and pricing as the season proceeds.



Ill give it a try, BB


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## HarryBack (Aug 15, 2006)

there ya go, BB! My first attempt at Wiki. If you see anything it still needs, let me know. Heres the link:


https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/2006_pellet_pricing/


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## BrotherBart (Aug 15, 2006)

Good job HB. Looks so good it almost makes me wanna run out and buy a pellet stove!

BTW: Has everybody seen this thing. The guy at ACE Hardware showed it to me the other day. I told him I thought I would pass.

http://www.cajun-outdoor-cooking.com/lipigpegr.html


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## MountainStoveGuy (Aug 15, 2006)

Trager makes probably the best pellet grill around. I dont know whey they chose a pig for a shell, it looks silly. The grills do work well!


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## MountainStoveGuy (Aug 15, 2006)

I added my data for wiki.


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## PutnamJct (Aug 15, 2006)

Me three. I am going to call around tomorrow to see if anyone else is in stock yet with prices.


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## restorer (Aug 16, 2006)

Last week I got a price of $2.87 per bag for pellets, no quantity discount from Sutherland's. The local stove store is at $4.85 per bag, but a 10% discount for 1 ton purchase.  A local maker quoted 130 per ton, you pick up, but a limit of 4 tons. Seems Sutherland's is the best deal. Ironically, there are two local makers wirthin 150 miles. Their prices are higler than Sutherland's who ship their pellets 900 miles from Montana.


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## begreen (Aug 16, 2006)

UncleRich said:
			
		

> Last week I got a price of $2.87 per bag for pellets, no quantity discount from Sutherland's. The local stove store is at $4.85 per bag, but a 10% discount for 1 ton purchase.  A local maker quoted 130 per ton, you pick up, but a limit of 4 tons. Seems Sutherland's is the best deal. Ironically, there are two local makers wirthin 150 miles. Their prices are higler than Sutherland's who ship their pellets 900 miles from Montana.



What brand of pellets are you comparing and who manufactures them? Perhaps we can share our experience with them. Also, what kind of stove will they be burning in? Some stoves are more flexible than others for cheaper brands of pellets. Where are you located? That is a great price.

I'd buy a bag of each of them today and open them up. Pour each into its own  5 gal bucket. Compare the consistency in size, looks for how much sawdust or other grit is in there. If the local mfg pellets are decent quality then go for them. My guess is at that price the pellets won't burn as cleanly as some of the premium brands, but if you don't mind a little more frequent cleaning, then they sound like a bargain.


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## restorer (Aug 16, 2006)

I'm in Salt Lake City. The Sutherland's store is now $2.79 per bag, $139.50 per ton. I got a bad quote, apparently. This is for Eureka Pellets from Missoula, Montana. IFA is $3.99 per bag, $189.00 per ton. That's the local and I got a quote for Bear Mountain at $4.50 per bag and $225.00 per ton from a better stove store. Eureka is 100% Douglas fir, premium pellets. Bear Mountain is mixed woods, but premium and the local is mixed, but I have no other specs.


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## PutnamJct (Aug 16, 2006)

UncleRich said:
			
		

> I'm in Salt Lake City. The Sutherland's store is now $2.79 per bag, $139.50 per ton. I got a bad quote, apparently. This is for Eureka Pellets from Missoula, Montana. .



Helps shoot down the "transportation" myth for high pellet prices. Missoula MT to SLC UT is over 500 miles apart. Arcade NY where Dry Creek brand is manufactured to my distributor in Brewster NY is about 330 miles. 

170 mile difference between both scenarios. Yet I am paying $100 more per ton.

Go Figure.


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## MountainStoveGuy (Aug 16, 2006)

they are probably getting there eureka pellets by rail. transportation is no myth, desiel is definalty way up, it cost more to ship and you pay more. Eureka wanted to sell to us by rail, but not give us a break on price to compete with HD. We didnt take the offer.


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## PutnamJct (Aug 16, 2006)

Don't get me wrong, I agree 1000% that gas/diesel prices have risen substantially. I just don't think that that explains the total of the price increases or the huge disparity between different parts of the country in price. Fuel costs have risen in the midwest on a similar scale as in the northeast.


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## Michael6268 (Aug 16, 2006)

Big sign at Aqway-269.00 a ton for dry creek.  Was in HD just today and they too had a big sign- 279.00 a ton for Fireside.  I am so glad I have enough coal for about two more years.  I see that is going up too..... After that who knows. Maybe I will join all you wood stove folks..


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## BrotherBart (Aug 16, 2006)

I just checked. Cord wood at my house is still two gallons of gas, a quart of bar oil, one chain sharpening, two skinned knucles, one sore back and six Genny Lights a ton this year. Same as last year.


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## HarryBack (Aug 17, 2006)

PutnamJct said:
			
		

> Don't get me wrong, I agree 1000% that gas/diesel prices have risen substantially. I just don't think that that explains the total of the price increases or the huge disparity between different parts of the country in price. Fuel costs have risen in the midwest on a similar scale as in the northeast.



Well, Putnam, when you figure it out, clue me in. We take our cost, add the freight, and add a predetermined gross profit number to that.....actually this year, its almost $4.00 per ton LESS than last year! Lets see.....the pellets cost me $215/ton, I add my customary $150.00/ton, and.....


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## PutnamJct (Aug 17, 2006)

Your wholesale price is $75 more a ton then the Salt Lake City guy is getting them at retail....... That  is the problem. Too bad you can't truck in 22 tons from where he is buying them for less then 2K shipping and have it still be worth your while. Unless you add in that extra $150 per ton  %-P


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## Roospike (Aug 17, 2006)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> I just checked. Cord wood at my house is still two gallons of gas, a quart of bar oil, one chain sharpening, two skinned knucles, one sore back and six Genny Lights a ton this year. Same as last year.


Hey , Whada know ......... My cord wood price is running the same here in the midwest . Again , same price as last year . Humm


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## smirnov3 (Aug 17, 2006)

I don't know too much about the pellet industry, but I figure a large part of the price differance between brands is two things 

1) what price the pellet mill pays for the wood - do they get a good contract for scrap wood, or are they competing with some big construction company?

2) logistics: is the mill trucking 20 tons by truck along country roads, or are they shipping a full rail-freight car straight to you?


#1 is mostly luck, #2 is good planning.


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## begreen (Aug 17, 2006)

I would think that the most successful pellet operations already have the wood for making something like plywood, etc. The massive amounts of sawdust they were creating might be a liability until they started making pellets. Either that or you have a large mill right next door.


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## restorer (Aug 17, 2006)

MountainStoveGuy said:
			
		

> they are probably getting there eureka pellets by rail. transportation is no myth, desiel is definalty way up, it cost more to ship and you pay more. Eureka wanted to sell to us by rail, but not give us a break on price to compete with HD. We didnt take the offer.



Sutherlands is also a national company. Although the stores operate somewhat independently, I'd bet they are doing a collective order for many stores and having the individuals order from a central office and Eureka ships to the stores. 

I have a little info on a company in Idaho. I don't have any affiliation with them. In the small town of Ovid, Idaho, Southeast corner is a hardware store that makes pellets. Got a good referral from a long time pellet user. I called and asked about availability. They said they are making them every day, but Sunday. As we talked he said they were loading their third or fourth semi of the day. They prefer selling in 22's, but will sell to "retail users" at $139 per ton. Limit of 4 tons. I think they are discouraging entrepeanuers. They ship to a store in SLC who retail them at  $225.  The store is 300 miles round trip, but I'd have to load by hand. Won't load a standard van with a fork-lift and won't load my Wells-Cargo because it has a ramp door. So three  tons would take me all day to pick load and return. If you have a larger truck, or a no side flat bed trailer they seem ready to please. If you were buying a truck load (22) give them a call. Their number is Jensen Hardware. (208) 847-0889.


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## MountainStoveGuy (Aug 17, 2006)

when i was out looking at the new quad stove, they made a statement that i cant verify, but they said on average, 2 mills a year come online, this year 30 came online. If thats true, pellets should hold at current market price and stay there. I can tell you this, no matter where you find pellets, $3 $4 $5 bucks a bad, the person selling them arent making money. the margin is so thin that there not worth it. You have to carry them to service the customers you sold stoves too. Some dealers just refer there customers to the big box, the problem is they dont carry much after x mas. Last year, my pellets went as high as 7 bucks a bag, i was paying almost 6 bucks a bag wholesale.


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## Mike Wilson (Aug 17, 2006)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> I just checked. Cord wood at my house is still ... six Genny Lights a ton this year. Same as last year.



Genny Light???  If you have to drink Genny Light, you are paying FAR too much for your wood.  Try switching to electric heat, it will be cheaper!

Genny...  ugh... and don't forget that other upstate classic, Genny Cream Ale, now that just says it all... Cream Ale.  Who the hell had that brainstorm of an idea?  Cream Ale... I'd rather drink straight from the Erie Canal!  Christ, someone should run up to Rochester and stop this madness...  

And while we're at it, what really is going on there in Matt's Brewery over in Utica... Saranac?

-- Mike


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## HarryBack (Aug 17, 2006)

Anton Smirnov said:
			
		

> I don't know too much about the pellet industry, but I figure a large part of the price differance between brands is two things
> 
> 1) what price the pellet mill pays for the wood - do they get a good contract for scrap wood, or are they competing with some big construction company?
> 
> ...



rarely, if ever, do retailers get their pellets by railcar. We were going to buy some pellets last season by rail, actually ordered some, but they never showed up from the west coast. When adding in the shipping and the logistics of unloading (need to put a lift in the car to unload it, for us, could only be done at the local transfer yard, for a fee), they werent any cheaper. Last year, it was more a year that if you had pellets, you could sell them. In New England pellets go in short supply. This year, there seems to be more pellets available in New England, and Im hoping this will have some downward pressure on price. New England Pellets is installing a bagging plany fairly nearby, with somewhere around 80,000 tons/year there, they are building a pellet mill in New York as well. Cubex currently owns ALOT of softwood product in Westfield, MA. Got wind of another company makeing pellets in eastern MA (Saugus, Seekonk...dont recall), and their pellets are to be made from construction waste...a bit leery of those. 
Most mills do contract for wood. I imagine their biggest competition for wood is likely power plants and paper mills.
Sadly as well, I also have the belief that a good part of regional price variations are due to profit. In our 2 step distribution process, the wholesaler sells the pellets for what they feel the market will bear. Then the retailer does the same thing. I dont see many areas of the country more expensive than New England, and the difference isnt a little bit, its alot. The shipping isnt any further than the folks out west have either. Since, in New England folks are used to paying alot, does it follow that possibly someones making more money here than other regions? I suspect so. I dont blame them for this, thats Capitalism.
Here in New England as well, there is a mindset that hardwood pellets are the only way to go. Folks seem to feel that softwood pellets burn fast and dont heat as well. So, they buy the hardwoods, only buying softwoods when hardwoods are too costly or unavailable. Softwood is really no cheaper than hardwood tho, due to shipping. Ive burned them all. In my opinion, there is no noticeable heat difference. The only difference I see is the glass seems to get dirtier faster with softwoods.



			
				MountainStoveGuy said:
			
		

> when i was out looking at the new quad stove, they made a statement that i cant verify, but they said on average, 2 mills a year come online, this year 30 came online. If thats true, pellets should hold at current market price and stay there. I can tell you this, no matter where you find pellets, $3 $4 $5 bucks a bad, the person selling them arent making money. the margin is so thin that there not worth it. You have to carry them to service the customers you sold stoves too. Some dealers just refer there customers to the big box, the problem is they dont carry much after x mas. Last year, my pellets went as high as 7 bucks a bag, i was paying almost 6 bucks a bag wholesale.]



I dont agree that you cannot make money with pellets. Of course you can. Do you sell many things below cost or at cost, MSG? I didnt think so. So, dont be bashful about making SOMETHING on your pellets! Sell them early in the season, when the "big boxes" dont have them....do a preseason sale. Get the folks burning to understand that by buying early they guarantee theyll have pellets for cold weather! These wood scroungers who abound on this board, are working early to put their wood in place long before they need it....why not do the same with pellets? You have to mark them up to make a profit is all. Forget about "matching the competition" as well. Make what you feel is FAIR. Dont get greedy. If the average price of pellets seems to be going up, raise your prices! Frequently, at or about this time of year, my competition runs out of pellets. I get those sales. We'll deliver almost anywhere, but there is a delivery charge, priced accordingly. I sell pellets early in an attempt to saturate at least a bit of the marketplace before the big boxes come in with their pellets. My biggest problem is figuring out a way to sell even more pellets. Id like to sell folks tractor-trailer loads. Id given them a good price, picked up at my facility, they arrange the trucking. Id like it all to go in one big swoop (as per the truck-trailer), that way, its easier to keep track of....ow- typers cramp!


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## HarryBack (Aug 17, 2006)

Anton Smirnov said:
			
		

> I don't know too much about the pellet industry, but I figure a large part of the price differance between brands is two things
> 
> 1) what price the pellet mill pays for the wood - do they get a good contract for scrap wood, or are they competing with some big construction company?
> 
> ...



rarely, if ever, do retailers get their pellets by railcar. We were going to buy some pellets last season by rail, actually ordered some, but they never showed up from the west coast. When adding in the shipping and the logistics of unloading (need to put a lift in the car to unload it, for us, could only be done at the local transfer yard, for a fee), they werent any cheaper. Also, sometimes the pellets come in in good shape, but sometimes they come in pretty torn and ragged in the car.....customers hate torn and ragged...for every torn bag we have on a skid, we give the customer another, and thatd get costly if there were alot. Last year, it was more a year that if you had pellets, you could sell them. In New England pellets go in short supply. This year, there seems to be more pellets available in New England, and Im hoping this will have some downward pressure on price. New England Pellets is installing a bagging plany fairly nearby, with somewhere around 80,000 tons/year there, they are building a pellet mill in New York as well. Cubex currently owns ALOT of softwood product in Westfield, MA. Got wind of another company makeing pellets in eastern MA (Saugus, Seekonk...dont recall), and their pellets are to be made from construction waste...a bit leery of those. 
Most mills do contract for wood. I imagine their biggest competition for wood is likely power plants and paper mills.
Sadly as well, I also have the belief that a good part of regional price variations are due to profit. In our 2 step distribution process, the wholesaler sells the pellets for what they feel the market will bear. Then the retailer does the same thing. I dont see many areas of the country more expensive than New England, and the difference isnt a little bit, its alot. The shipping isnt any further than the folks out west have either. Since, in New England folks are used to paying alot, does it follow that possibly someones making more money here than other regions? I suspect so. I dont blame them for this, thats Capitalism.
Here in New England as well, there is a mindset that hardwood pellets are the only way to go. Folks seem to feel that softwood pellets burn fast and dont heat as well. So, they buy the hardwoods, only buying softwoods when hardwoods are too costly or unavailable. Softwood is really no cheaper than hardwood tho, due to shipping. Ive burned them all. In my opinion, there is no noticeable heat difference. The only difference I see is the glass seems to get dirtier faster with softwoods.



			
				MountainStoveGuy said:
			
		

> when i was out looking at the new quad stove, they made a statement that i cant verify, but they said on average, 2 mills a year come online, this year 30 came online. If thats true, pellets should hold at current market price and stay there. I can tell you this, no matter where you find pellets, $3 $4 $5 bucks a bad, the person selling them arent making money. the margin is so thin that there not worth it. You have to carry them to service the customers you sold stoves too. Some dealers just refer there customers to the big box, the problem is they dont carry much after x mas. Last year, my pellets went as high as 7 bucks a bag, i was paying almost 6 bucks a bag wholesale.]



I dont agree that you cannot make money with pellets. Of course you can. Do you sell many things below cost or at cost, MSG? I didnt think so. So, dont be bashful about making SOMETHING on your pellets! Sell them early in the season, when the "big boxes" dont have them....do a preseason sale. Get the folks burning to understand that by buying early they guarantee theyll have pellets for cold weather! These wood scroungers who abound on this board, are working early to put their wood in place long before they need it....why not do the same with pellets? You have to mark them up to make a profit is all. Forget about "matching the competition" as well. Make what you feel is FAIR. Dont get greedy. If the average price of pellets seems to be going up, raise your prices! Frequently, at or about this time of year, my competition runs out of pellets. I get those sales. We'll deliver almost anywhere, but there is a delivery charge, priced accordingly. I sell pellets early in an attempt to saturate at least a bit of the marketplace before the big boxes come in with their pellets. My biggest problem is figuring out a way to sell even more pellets. Id like to sell folks tractor-trailer loads. Id given them a good price, picked up at my facility, they arrange the trucking. Id like it all to go in one big swoop (as per the truck-trailer), that way, its easier to keep track of....ow- typers cramp!


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## MountainStoveGuy (Aug 17, 2006)

UncleRich said:
			
		

> MountainStoveGuy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Have you burned them in your stove?  Thats a great price, And idea what grade they are? It to expensive getting pellets west of us, the moutain passes make it expesive, we have to buy our pellets north or east of us.


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## MountainStoveGuy (Aug 17, 2006)

UncleRich said:
			
		

> MountainStoveGuy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Have you burned them in your stove?  Thats a great price, And idea what grade they are? It to expensive getting pellets west of us, the moutain passes make it expesive, we have to buy our pellets north or east of us.  Its cheaper to get out pellets out of missouri then it is out of nevada.


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## Shane (Aug 17, 2006)

I found some off the West Coast for 139 per ton.  Have to buy a rail car load to make shipping feasable and then would have to sell them at 4.50 per bag just to break even.  Sutherlands has raised their prices to 3.80 per bag here (Heartland pellets) which puts them way out of line for an NG-Pellet comparison.  It's strange though even if I show people teh math prove that pellets are more expensive to burn than a gas stove, they're still convinced their saving $$ over NG.  The propane guys are still saving a bundle though.


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## MountainStoveGuy (Aug 17, 2006)

yea at 5 bucks a bag, its almost $16.50 for a million btus, at the currentt nat gas rate here, $10 per million... huge difference. Electicity, fuel oil. and propane arent even close.


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## BrotherBart (Aug 17, 2006)

Mike Wilson said:
			
		

> BrotherBart said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ain't it amazing? I have drank regular and light beers all over the world and the only two lights with taste that I like are Amstel Light and Genny Light. Just no accounting for taste I guess. If Genny Light cost twice as much or more I would still buy it.

Hopefully the rest of the world will keep thinking Genny is crap so the price stays down.


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## begreen (Aug 17, 2006)

Shane said:
			
		

> I found some off the West Coast for 139 per ton.  Have to buy a rail car load to make shipping feasable and then would have to sell them at 4.50 per bag just to break even.  Sutherlands has raised their prices to 3.80 per bag here (Heartland pellets) which puts them way out of line for an NG-Pellet comparison.  It's strange though even if I show people teh math prove that pellets are more expensive to burn than a gas stove, they're still convinced their saving $$ over NG.  The propane guys are still saving a bundle though.



If one is comparing a pellet stove to a very efficicent nat. gas stove in the heating envelope, then this is true is many areas... for the moment. But sometimes folks are heating via a natural gas central furnace or ducting that's in a cold basement or crawspace. They can be battling a lot of heat loss. It would be better to remedy that situation first, but sometimes that is a challenge. In that case the pellets may be a better economic choice because most of the heat output is in the house envelope and the losses are much less.


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## begreen (Aug 17, 2006)

MountainStoveGuy said:
			
		

> yea at 5 bucks a bag, its almost $16.50 for a million btus, at the currentt nat gas rate here, $10 per million... huge difference. Electicity, fuel oil. and propane arent even close.



Pellets here are still holding at around $4.50/bag and $180/ton for the 6th yr. since I've been tracking it. Can get it as low as $140/ton if one has a truck and are willing to travel to the mill. The local grocery store sells a cheaper variety for $3.99/bag. For nat. gas, we're around 1.13/therm. Expectation is that this is only heading upward due to flat supplies and increasing demand.

http://www.energyshop.com/es/homes/gas/gaspriceforecast.cfm


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## MountainStoveGuy (Aug 17, 2006)

ohh yes Begreen, im talking like appliances. Nat gas stove vs a pellet stove, with the same btu output. You can buy a 40k btu gas stove that is 85% efficient, and pay 10 bucks per million, or you can buy a 40k btu pellet stove for 3k and pay $16 per million for fuel. If you have nat gas, i dont know why you would condider pellet, unless you want to be doing the right thing and not burning a fossil fuel.


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## MountainStoveGuy (Aug 17, 2006)

nat gas would have to reach a 1.50/therm to meet current pellet prices, and the bad news is, pellets prices will always be a percentage higher then nat gas. Once again, we are not talking furnaces here, just zone appliances.


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## begreen (Aug 17, 2006)

Given the trend, I would ask, what does one want to be burning 3-5 years from now when those thousands of new wells in Wyoming stop passing gas?


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## MountainStoveGuy (Aug 17, 2006)

hydrogen?


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## begreen (Aug 17, 2006)

LOL  

get out the cheap beer and chili - homemade methane


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## Shane (Aug 17, 2006)

When I figure the cost of fuel I simply take into account the cost per btu.  If you start getting efficiencies involved then pellets tend to look even worse.


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## smirnov3 (Aug 17, 2006)

Well, the way efficiencies are calculated is pretty whack. My oil furnace (originally a coal furnace, converted to oil sometime in the 1950s) is rated at 78%. But that doesn't take into account that the heat is transferred via 'gravity feed' - very slow, and I think a lot of heat is lost during the process. I would guess the efficieny of the whole system is more like 50%

I think a better way of measuring efficiency is to place the heater into a 'standard house' and see how much fuel it takes to raise the temperature of the house 30 C above ambient for 12 hours.

you could also compare forced hot water to forced air,  play around with the WHOLE system. that would give you real data.


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## restorer (Aug 18, 2006)

[quote author="Anton Smirnov" date="1155850819"]Well, the way efficiencies are calculated is pretty whack. My oil furnace (originally a coal furnace, converted to oil sometimeyou could also compare forced hot water to forced air,  play around with the WHOLE system. that would give you real data.[/quote


Some time ago I lived in Syracuse, NY. My house was heated by an Octypus Furnace. Convection originally a coal burner, coverted to gas. Huge asbestos covered pipes in the basement going to grills on all floors and rooms. No blower, no pumps, no need for electrics, except the thermostat. My house was a three story, good ., but old insulated with storm windows. Several times a year the power went out, Ice Storms. The irony is that my house was the only one on the block with heat after 12 hours. I openned up for the neighbors. The original system was probably 30-40% efficient, but the NG-retro-fit burner was great, and would operate with a flip of a switch when the power was out. My 70+ neighbors had a key, and would move over when the temp got tooo low. When they built this house, circa 1900 they were concerned about costs for heating.

The long winded part is done. Sometimes there are people smarter than we who have thought through  these issues. If you use a cheap energy source, good for you. If gas is cheap, or wood, or switch grass, share your skill in using the available resource. May help us SLUGS. I have had it with the NG supplier here, Salt Lake City. They have screwed me for my business and home for too many years. Many have asked for rates, but Utah has made it impossible to calculate the cost per million Btu. The rate varies based on............... Told them last year to calculate based on the zero use base. I am now using a pellet stove, last yeat I heated ZONES with kerosene heaters. There are no ultimate good guyes. There are only those who can be honest with the information they have.


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## Mike Wilson (Aug 18, 2006)

Who has a pellet source (sources) on Long Island, and what are they charging?  

I looked at the (new?) Harman PB105 Pellet Boiler, and actually drooled a little bit.  Pop that sucker in the basement next to the dinosaur burner, set up a pellet bin and a chute, and plumb it into my existing 3 zone heating system.  I just have no clue where to get pellets on the island (even if I am on the bitter end of it), and how much they charge.

-- Mike


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## HarryBack (Aug 18, 2006)

Mike Wilson said:
			
		

> Who has a pellet source (sources) on Long Island, and what are they charging?
> 
> I looked at the (new?) Harman PB105 Pellet Boiler, and actually drooled a little bit.  Pop that sucker in the basement next to the dinosaur burner, set up a pellet bin and a chute, and plumb it into my existing 3 zone heating system.  I just have no clue where to get pellets on the island (even if I am on the bitter end of it), and how much they charge.
> 
> -- Mike



The PB105 is brand new......suggestion.....give it a year, let em work out the bugs first!


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## Mike Wilson (Aug 18, 2006)

Harry,

I totally agree... and not to worry, I have 3 cord of wood either already delivered or on order for this year, so the 06-07 heating season here is covered... with logs!

But, that boiler looks nice.  I wonder if it can direct vent?  Plus, I wonder a lot of other things... what's it cost, what do pellets cost around here, what the heck do I do if my nearest dealer is 75 miles away, you know, the usual "wonder" things when one contemplates a new toy...er... I mean, high efficiency heating system.

-- Mike


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## HarryBack (Aug 19, 2006)

Mike Wilson said:
			
		

> Harry,
> 
> I totally agree... and not to worry, I have 3 cord of wood either already delivered or on order for this year, so the 06-07 heating season here is covered... with logs!
> 
> ...



Saw the PB105 at the Salt Lake City show.....yea, direct vent, very serviceable! Youve gotta find a dealer close by who will sell the unit, or find one further away who will service it. Noone really knows anything about this, other than what theyve read. Ive seen and touched one, but without a air amount of them out in the field, with folks testing and troubleshooting, Id wait a bit.


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## begreen (Aug 19, 2006)

Harry, do you know what the retail pricing is for the PB105 and PF 100?


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## HarryBack (Aug 19, 2006)

BeGreen-

We are $2899 on the PF100 (pellet furnace), currently 2 in stock. This has been a good unit for us. Two or 3 main difficulties early on, two in the wiring, one in the hopper gate, both have been subsequently fixed, and otherwise, its been a super unit. The PB105, Ill have to get back to you on. Dont have any of these yet, and wasnt sure if they actually made a major production run yet. Here's the specifics:

http://harmanstoves.com/features.asp?id=48


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## adam (Aug 24, 2006)

Our local stove shop in seacoast NH ranges from $245/ton for local pellets to $265 for 'premium' BC pellets.
We just ordered a ton last night for delivery with our new stove.
-Adam


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## MountainStoveGuy (Aug 24, 2006)

Its seems for the most part, pellet prices are in line nation wide.. We just started a 2 ton limit. What kind of pellet stove did you order?
And welcome to the forum adam.


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## adam (Aug 24, 2006)

We ordered a Harman XXV, something we've been lusting after (does lust apply to pellet stoves??) since first seeing it in the spring.  
Our dealer's truck has room for a ton of pellets with the stove, so we avoid the $45/load delivery fee for the first ton.

Thanks, it's good to be here.  My wife and I are looking forward to fewer visits from the propane fairy this winter...

-Adam



			
				MountainStoveGuy said:
			
		

> Its seems for the most part, pellet prices are in line nation wide.. We just started a 2 ton limit. What kind of pellet stove did you order?
> And welcome to the forum adam.


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## moralleper (Aug 24, 2006)

The pellet prices sure are more on the east side of the country.  I just bought 2 tons of premium pellets for 139.90 a ton.  The prices range in my area, sw washington, from $139.90 to $210 a ton.  If I buy by the bag the price range is $2.99-$5.

ml


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## MountainStoveGuy (Aug 24, 2006)

What brand were the 139/ton? Thats a great price, and definatly not the norm!


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## moralleper (Aug 24, 2006)

the prices are as follows

$139.90 - Brunmaster made by Seattle Box Co. http://www.seattlebox.com/ in Seattle bought from Ace Hardware or direct
$169 - Cleanburn made in Tacoma
$175 - Bear Mountain made is Cascade Locks, OR
$178 - Blazer Hot Shots
$180-$195 Golden Fire made in Cascade Locks, OR
$210 - Lignetics made is Sandpoint, ID i think.

That pretty much sums up the prices in my area.  I went with the Burnmaster, although I do not have much experience with them yet, mostly because of the price.


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## HarryBack (Aug 24, 2006)

dear lord, moral, those prices are below my COST, NOT including delivery, here in New England!, and I buy ALOT of pellets!


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## Roospike (Aug 24, 2006)

HarryBack said:
			
		

> dear lord, moral, those prices are below my COST, NOT including delivery, here in New England!, and I buy ALOT of pellets!


 Sounds like somebody is making "bank" on pellets . If not the dealers then ..................


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## BrotherBart (Aug 24, 2006)

I can just hear the radio commodities reports next year:

"Today soybeans were down three points, pork bellies down one and one half points and wood pellets were up twelve."

Hmmm... Speaking of soybeans, there is a lot of oil in those little corn shaped dudes.


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## moralleper (Aug 24, 2006)

This is probably due to the fact that almost no matter were you are in the NW you are with in 100miles or less to a pellet mill.  All pellets in the NW are made from waste sawdust from local saw mills and are usually Doug fir


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## Jim Doten (Aug 27, 2006)

I just got a ton of Lignetics here in NW Oregon for 250$, I could have gone with
a cheaper brand(don't know how much) but I like the way the Lignetics burns.
When I went to the feed store to get it, they told me that there is a shortage
of pellets this year. They said that there is a limit to how much they can get.
I assume that the price will go up in another month.


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## HarryBack (Aug 27, 2006)

pellets are expensive here in the Northeast, but even at $239-$259/TON, we are selling alot of them. For what its worth, people, in New England, I strongly suggest you fill your winter pellets needs NOW. Im predicting, once again, a supply problem in mid-late September. Due to allocation by the mills, most dealers cannot get the pellets they want/need. When that happens there are generally shortages, and with shortages, like last year, there are price increases. If you are reading this, you have more than a passing interest in pellets....heard it here first (well, maybe).


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## Jim Doten (Aug 27, 2006)

I was wondering about the shortage of pellets, cause it didn't sound
in any of the previous posts like anyone else was thinking that there
would be a shortage of them. I'm thinking that maybe sometime this winter
even though I have enough pellets to more than last, I'll try another
brand of cheaper pellets and see how they do. I've only had my stove since
Feb of this year so have only tried Lignetics.

Jim


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## Retired_Ted (Aug 27, 2006)

My dealer is quoting $240 per ton for hardwood pellets - Lowes $280 or so per ton.  Hope I haven't made a mistake - I was considering propane but declined due to the cost among other reasons.  I suppose the cost of gasoline and transportation along with gouging isn't helping.


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## Homefire (Aug 27, 2006)

yep
supply and demand
they got the supply and demand your life savings.


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## webbie (Aug 27, 2006)

My guess is that the price and supply of Pellets will very much depend on BOTH the weather and the price of other fuels. Most folks cannot store much more than a ton, and they won't burn them too fast if it is warm out....or, if natural gas stays low and oil drops.

Of course, these are fools bets! But I suppose that most folks who spend over 3500 for an installed pellet stove are not 100% relying on saving big bucks with the heat, either. In other words, much of the burning is optional.

My Pellet Corn stove is on the way....going in the new shop! (I'm a lucky guy, this shop is going to be really nice!) The maker (Magnum Countryside) claims it can burn corn, wheat, oats, barley, cherry pits and even rice! But I suppose price of fuel will keep me in corn and pellets for starters. I saw some big silos on a local farm today....will have to check out the local corn situation.

Hmmm.... I wonder how soybeans burn?


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## BrotherBart (Aug 27, 2006)

"Hmmm.... I wonder how soybeans burn?"

Really well. I screwed up and set off a grease fire consisting of 100% soybean cooking oil in July. The stuff burns hot enough to destroy a kitchen range and a range hood I guarantee you.

The irony is that I set it off while I was down in the office in the basement talking to the vendor ordering one of my chimney liners to keep from burning down my house with the wood stove.

Saved two hundred on the liner. The kitchen stove and range hood cost me $1,400.


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## webbie (Aug 27, 2006)

I just love those little mistakes that end up costing BIG.
Puts everything in proper perspective!


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## HarryBack (Aug 28, 2006)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> My guess is that the price and supply of Pellets will very much depend on BOTH the weather and the price of other fuels. Most folks cannot store much more than a ton, and they won't burn them too fast if it is warm out....or, if natural gas stays low and oil drops.



The majority of our customers buy between 3 and 4 tons at a time, usually once a year. These are folks who primarily heat their home with pellets....I do, and I use 5 tons, for about 2000 square feet of area. We do have a few recreational burners as well, they buy 1-2 tons/year. Unfortunately, if oil or NG drops, most of my customers already have their fuel. Fortunately, if oil or NG goes up, they are betetr off. Heating oil in our area is selling for this winters futures for roughly $2.699/gal.....kinda the same deal...if you buy the futures, you are locked in on that price irregardless of what oil and NG does....kinda like buying all of your pellets in the fall.

Magnum Countryside? I'll be very curious to see how the stove serves you, Craig. I hope you like it.


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## PutnamJct (Aug 28, 2006)

Definitley a "hedge" game at this point. I'm sitting on about 4.5 tons that should get me through the whole season for about $1100. Based on my history of oil use over 5 years, if the prices stay at $2.69 gallon, I would use close to $2500 worth of oil. If oil drops to $.99 a gallon, maybe I lose out. Think oil will drop $1.70 a gallon this winter? NG is not an available where I live. As soon as a mouse farts in the middle east or we get 1 hurricane, $2.69 a gallon will probably look cheap.


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## pelletheat (Aug 28, 2006)

PutnamJct said:
			
		

> . As soon as a mouse farts in the middle east or we get 1 hurricane, $2.69 a gallon will probably look cheap.



LOL


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## pjmac (Aug 29, 2006)

I picked up 4 tons of pellets on Sat 8/26 at local Tractor supply for $211.00 a ton. This was the best price I could find. ( East Central Ohio )


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## chevyhd (Aug 29, 2006)

Prices here in south central PA range anywhere from $215 at a local stove shop to $265 at lowes.  Got mine for this winter back in april, paid $185/ton.  Got them all in my garage waiting to be burned.  Not much room left for the snowblower and the kids toys though.


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## Jerry (Aug 29, 2006)

I just hauled 3 tons of Lignetics ( My Favorite) home for $160. ea. On Sale. I will probably need another 1/2 ton to get through winter. I like to buy different kinds, by the bag, to try out new brands. Y'all Mart usually has a few different brands during the winter at great prices. The neighborhood grocery store usually has Eureka pellets at a good price. They are a pretty good pellet too.
My heating bills are about a push with pellets and NG. The difference is, with pellets I can actually keep it nice and warm in here for the same money.
It's good to be warm!

Other prices in Eastern WA:
Lignetics (Sandpoint, ID)~ $170-$180
Armstrong SPF (imported from Canada)~ $150-$160. Last year were $139
Atlas Premium all Red Fir (Coeur d'Alene, ID)~ $140 from the mill. $150 local


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## webbie (Aug 29, 2006)

PutnamJct said:
			
		

> Definitley a "hedge" game at this point. I'm sitting on about 4.5 tons that should get me through the whole season for about $1100. Based on my history of oil use over 5 years, if the prices stay at $2.69 gallon, I would use close to $2500 worth of oil. If oil drops to $.99 a gallon, maybe I lose out. Think oil will drop $1.70 a gallon this winter? NG is not an available where I live. As soon as a mouse farts in the middle east or we get 1 hurricane, $2.69 a gallon will probably look cheap.



Pellets at $210 a ton are roughly the same as oil at $2.00 a gallon. Any other savings you see is based on a number of factors including lower temps in other parts of the home and the advantages of "space" heat (whatever the fuel).....and, of course the big one, wishful thinking!

Adding in the stove cleaning, pellet hauling and orginal installation price, the equiv. would change to be ever closer.

Fuel Cost Calculator 

Note: I upped the Pellet Stove efficiency to 75% for my calc above.


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## webbie (Aug 29, 2006)

HarryBack said:
			
		

> Magnum Countryside? I'll be very curious to see how the stove serves you, Craig. I hope you like it.



I'll be certain to put it through some abuse! 

I met Mike Haefner, the founder and Prez of this manufacturer, many years ago at one of the first "nethead" parties that we had at the yearly trade shows. We'd (Hearth.com) rent a room/suite, get some donations and beer - and next thing you know we'd all be networking!

Anyway, he is one of those good Hearth Industry stories - the hard working, hands-on guy who started small and pretty much stayed small....but now is getting bigger due to the popularity of biomass (pellet/corn) stoves. He had the first stove nationally certified to burn corn and his current models claim to burn just about everything...they have some kind of a round, rotatiing firepot (at least one model does)...<plug here> .Mike has recently become a GOLD sponsor of Hearth.com, which is an amazing committment for a small manufacturer. He always believed in the power of the net, but now he is putting his money where his mouth is! (or at least where my mouth is!). All kidding aside, a sponsorship of Hearth.com is what makes stuff like this board available for everyone - and it also benefits the manufacturer and their dealers greatly <end of plug>

He also makes some central heating units that burn pellets/corn and various other biomass fuels.

One thing that I am fairly certain of - the future will favor stoves that can burn higher ash pellets, corn and other biomass as opposed to those which only like the best fuel. It's one thing if you like in the western forests, but for the rest of us I think fuel flexibility will be a plus.


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## PutnamJct (Aug 30, 2006)

No wishful thinking for me. The oil companies around here send lock in letters and leave the price blank until you call them.  Then they want you to prepay the whole years worth up front.  They add the threat that if you don't lock in, "they are not responsible" if they run out (and you freeze your a** off)  As the prices stand today, I'll save well over $1000 this season and don't have to cringe when the tanker pulls down the driveway. The numbers don't lie and I keep the house at 70 degrees 24/7.  My set up is probably unique but it works.


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## HarryBack (Aug 30, 2006)

you know what, Putnam, Ive found the same thing! I keep reading how oil's cheaper but:

I used to burn 1300 gals oil/year. Now, with the pellet stove, I burn 300 gals. Lets do some simple math:

my pellets cost me $250/ton, because I dont procrastinate......5 tons at $250/ton = $1250.
my oil costs me $2.43/gal (today)......I save 1000 gals/year now that I burn with pellets......thats $2430 dollars.

$2430 - $1250 = $1180!  So, Im saving $1180 dollars at todays prices burning pellets. At least thats what my checkbook tells me, and that assumes the prices of oil being constant, all winter, at $2.43/gal......if it goes down, Ill save less, but if it goes up, I'll save more. Also, yea, pellets are more work than oil, but still ALOT less work than wood, and I think Ill use the same argument the wood scroungers use...the work is therapeutic!  ;-P


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## webbie (Aug 30, 2006)

It's time to call out the mythbusters!

And, from all people, an Engineer. 
Now, let me see if I understand your calcs.....

You are claiming that 5 tons of pellets =1000 gallons of heating oil.
That is 200 gallons per ton.
Pellets contain about 16,000,000 BTU per ton.
Oil contains about 28,000,000 BTU for 200 gallons.

To replace 1000 gallons of oil with Pellets, you would need 140,000,000 BTU's of Pellets (almost 9 tons). There are no if, ands or buts. 

So, you are burning almost 1/2 the amount of BTU's, but magically getting the same heat?

One of the constants I have seen in this industry is the old "I heat my house with two logs for 24 hours in my Buck Stove" mentality. Now that we are all mature and know a bit more about the way heat works, isn't it time to be accurate about BTU to BTU comparisons? How can we expect an educated consumer if we in the trade don't use basic science and math in our comparisons.

While I have no doubt that the stories you tell about your experience are true, they are not an accurate picture. For instance:
1. Did you try installing a freestanding gas or oil stove in the same place as the Pellet Stove? Maybe you are saving money because of space heat as opposed to Central Heat.
2. Was the entire house at the same temperature as with the oil?
3. Was your central heater old and inefficient?
4. Did you do anything to tighten up the house or improve any facets to lower heat load?

Not looking for answers, but these are SOME of the questions that the "personal experiences" do not always answer.

In summary, a BTU is a BTU. There is no way around it. Certainly there are many other factors which go into a heating decision, but I would hate to think that a bunch of hearth shops are out there claiming a ton of pellets beats 200 gallons of oil. Honesty is always the best policy, and if it sounds too good to be true - it usually is.


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## Mike Wilson (Aug 30, 2006)

I heat my house with two logs for 24 hours in my Jøtul Stove.   ;-P 

-- Mike


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## BrotherBart (Aug 30, 2006)

Mike Wilson said:
			
		

> I heat my house with two logs for 24 hours in my Jøtul Stove.   ;-P
> 
> -- Mike



That is why I hate to part with my old stove. I will have to use that extra log every day.


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## HarryBack (Aug 30, 2006)

hey, what can I say, Craig!? Built the house in '88....burned oil till 2001, almost always the same amount of oil/year. Bought the stove, burned 5 tons/yr for 4 years now.
for your questions:

1. Nope....the only gas available here is bottled.......expen$ive.....didnt do that OR a freestanding oil stove....why would I? In 4 years in supposed to chuck 2 stoves in the interest of science? naw.
2. Basically, the house is WARMER than with oil. two zones, upstairs and downstairs with the oil, kept upstairs at 65 degrees, downstairs at 68 degrees with oil. Now, with pellets, downstairs is 75, upstairs 65 (have to get downstairs to 75, so I can get upstairs to 65)
3. Heater, 1988, new, furnace cleaned every year (system is baseboard hot water).
4. NO changes to the home to change the heat load.

I guess it IS magic! All I can tell ya is the above Craig.......overanalyze it all you want, but it is what it is. maybe winters are alot warmer now that i have my stove?!


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## PutnamJct (Aug 30, 2006)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> It's time to call out the mythbusters!
> 
> While I have no doubt that the stories you tell about your experience are true, they are not an accurate picture. For instance:
> 1. Did you try installing a freestanding gas or oil stove in the same place as the Pellet Stove?


No. The only gas I can get in this area is from eating at Taco Bell. Wouldn't even consider oil due to the price increase over the past few years.


> Maybe you are saving money because of space heat as opposed to Central Heat.


In my case I think that has ALOT to do with it. Pellet insert is in the den,  heat travels on its own to the whole living space. The only space that is not getting heat from the pellet stove that was getting heat from the forced air oil furnace is a downstairs storage room.
[/quote]





> 2. Was the entire house at the same temperature as with the oil?


Actually stayed closer to 68 with the oil so it is warmer now.


> 3. Was your central heater old and inefficient?


Older horizontal forced air furnace with those little vents in the floors through out the house (1 or 2 in each room). I've only been in house 6 years, and it has service stickers on it going back into the early 90's.


> 4. Did you do anything to tighten up the house or improve any facets to lower heat load?


No but I plan to. 

I don't think my results can be considered "typical" but according to the bottom line of ye olde balance sheet, I'm saving big money for the "inconvenience" of running a vacuum once a week and dragging bags of pellets in every few days. The pellets aren't magic or made out of plutonium, but for me they are a heck of a lot cheaper then #2.


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## MountainStoveGuy (Aug 30, 2006)

I think craigs point is zone heat. zone heat is zone heat, and if you burn the cheapist fuel in your zone heater, then you will be saving the most amount of money. You can figure the cost per btu and multiply by the efficiency factor of the stove pretty easily, if pellets are the cheapist fuel per btu, the pellets win. In my area, gas is almost half as much as pellets.... go figure


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## webbie (Aug 30, 2006)

Harry, I had to pour a slab here - 6 inches thick - 400 sq. ft.

That's 200 cf or a little over 7 yards of concrete....

But, amazingly enough, one concrete company told me I only needed 4 yards. They brought the "special" concrete and sure enough, it filled the shop to 6 inches thick!

Well, you see what I am getting at. This is a silly story. You can't use 4 yards of concrete to replace 7!

There is no magic or nuclear pellets. I will argue that point until the end of time. You can tell your experiences and others can tell their "tales", but I say it can be misleading to a customer because you are the expert and must know the actual BTU to BTU comparison. 

I have made it clear that there are additional factors other than the BTUS. BUT, these factors apply no matter what the fuel is. Calling a simple price comparison "overanalysis" seems stretching it. Why not just sell the products on their merits? I think an educated customer is best.


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## HarryBack (Aug 30, 2006)

well, then, by that same logic, arent all automobiles the same as well? They burn the same fuel, right? So, the Yugo will do the same as the Maserati? I dont think you can just look at the fuel and compare systems. We arent comparing heat delivery, efficiencies, etc. By analyzing the fuel, all we can really do is compare AVAILABLE energy from the system. Nuclear pellets?.....Hmmm......


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## webbie (Aug 30, 2006)

HarryBack said:
			
		

> well, then, by that same logic, arent all automobiles the same as well? They burn the same fuel, right? So, the Yugo will do the same as the Maserati? I dont think you can just look at the fuel and compare systems. We arent comparing heat delivery, efficiencies, etc. By analyzing the fuel, all we can really do is compare AVAILABLE energy from the system. Nuclear pellets?.....Hmmm......



Certainly we are - we set 75% as the efficiency of both.

Two cars that get the same MPG will use the same amount of gas to go approx the same mileage...

Now, there are exceptions to that....if one guy loads up 7 people in his car and another is driven by a lone jockey.

Now, there is also another factor involved which we have not discussed. That is how much money is made on a sale. There is no such thing as a salesperson who is not affected by the urge to make a buck....in fact, that is often the definition of a sale person. But the same urge can lead some to try too hard....and that is where used car folks get their reputation. When buying a used car, which is the better story?

1. Salesman says "My Aunt has one of these babies and it went 200,000 miles without needing any work". "It's the safest car on the road".
or
2. Consumer Reports repair history, taken from 40,000 cars, which shows it will cost you $1700 a year to keep that hunk on the road...combined with the insurance institute which gives it 2 stars out of 5.

Now, I suppose you would call #2 overanalyzing, but that information should be available to the customer.

It is up to you, as a specialty dealer, to educate the customer. Holding back important information (such as the cost per mile, or cost per BTU) is certainly legal and perhaps even ethical, but it is not the way I would do business. The interesting thing is that such information will make for a happier customer with realistic expectation.

Certainly thre are a lot of dynamics in selling and buying. As a salesperson, you just ARE NOT going to tell the story of the guy who took his pellet stove to the dump because he could not get parts for it. You are going to rather tell your tale of saving $1000+ a year. 

Better be careful or we'll bring David_v back in here!
 :coolgrin:


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## cbrodsky (Aug 30, 2006)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> It's time to call out the mythbusters!
> 
> And, from all people, an Engineer.
> Now, let me see if I understand your calcs.....
> ...



Thanks Craig for the sanity check here - I absolutely agree.  The claim of equivalency is absurd in this case.

My guess would be an oil furnace poorly maintained making the oil number much much worse, a poorly designed oil heat system, or extremities of the house are in fact not half as warm as the centrally located thermostats indicate.

I know in my house, while a wood stove keeps my living room warmer than with oil, the far reaches of my upstairs are quite a bit cooler than what I had with oil, even though all my thermostats are reading temperatures higher than my historical oil numbers.  It's also very easy for an oil furnace efficiency to deteriorate considerably compared to target efficiency.

-Colin


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## elkimmeg (Aug 30, 2006)

> It’s also very easy for an oil furnace efficiency to deteriorate considerably compared to target efficiency.



Unfortunately this is correct. You know those majical first test effeciency nunbers will never be reached again Once the heater box firing element and carbon in the exhaust effeciency  goes down hill even tunning and cleaning you may never reach the effeciency numbers again So you oil burner claims up to 86% effeciency it test 85 ans retest a year later after tune up at 83. This is the norm.
 Things installers or manufactures  do not tell or publish


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## webbie (Aug 30, 2006)

NY Soapstone said:
			
		

> It's also very easy for an oil furnace efficiency to deteriorate considerably compared to target efficiency.
> 
> -Colin



And I suppose a Pellet Stove gets lower as flyash builds up in the heat exchangers. All in all, I think using 75% as an AFUE (total efficiency including excess air pulled out of house, etc.) for BOTH pellets and oil (and corn for that matter) is fair. Sure, some are higher and some are lower, but this is a average you'll find in actual real world conditions.

Never discount the "cool gadget" factor....or the "don't want to think I spent big money on a turkey" factor. These truisms have been proven over and over again. Heck, most Americans still think Saddam had something to do with 9/11 (That's the "Don't want to spend 500 billion on a turkey syndrome).

The power of suggestion is extremely powerful. Here are some stories from my drug-induced and business past:

1. When I was 15 and hanging out at the beach, some kids told me they had a pot farm and that, for $15, I could pick all I want. Having never seen either a farm nor a pot plant, I rounded up some friends and trash bags. We picked a bunch and stuffed the bags into the trunk.....and, of course, rolled up some dry leaves and started to smoke.

Well, next thing you know we are nice and high, and the police pull us over. Of course, this is like "Up in Smoke" cause when the windows are rolled down, the smoke pours out. We are brought in along with our stash.....

Ha Ha, they tested it and it was not pot at all. They let us go!

2. One year at the VC dealer meeting/dinner, they had a motivational speaker. The man left a string, washer and a piece of paper with a target on it on each table. We tied the string to the washer and he had us hold it in the air over the center of the target.

Then he made suggestions such as "look, the washer is swinging left and right" or "look, it's rotating around the center of the target" - and, guess what? It did! And 700 people were personally watching this happen at the same time. I tried to grab my wrist and make it stop, but it would not....the power of suggestion was too strong!

So, when the customer buys a legendary stove from a top dealer, gets the good pellets and spends a lot of money - he or she is very heavily invested in the machine. A typical stove owner will say "That thing paid for itself the first time I sat in front of it and warmed myself".

There is also no doubt that people feel good about heat that comes from renewable sources. This warms the heart.

Space heat, in my opinion, saves as much as 1/3 or more over central heat - whatever the fuel.

So, taken together, this represents a very positive experience. 

The biggest "Emporers New Clothes" story in the hearth biz was the original Dutchwest. Horrible stoves, ugly and poor quality. I would give them 1 star if a hotel or 3 out of 10 on a 10 scale. Yet they were outselling VC. Why? Three factors:

1. They were having a "sale" all year
2. They were spending incredible amounts of money to promote them
3. Once a customer had one...and they usually had no experience with anything else, they were not likely to admit they had a turkey. After all, that means admitting that you'd been had.....

I guess all I am promoting here is that customers and dealers should be educated and professional hearth stores should not withold important information from shoppers. Of course, shoppers should ask....if someone walks in the door and says "I want a Pellet Stove, which one should I buy". the retailer is not about to start from scratch.


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## Shane (Aug 30, 2006)

Dont ask dont tell heh?  I cannot say for sure but I think I've lost atleast three sales this year due to my honesty in the cost of NG to pellets/corn.  Some competitors pellet stoves have that magical efficiency.  When I do fuel cost comparisons for my customers I don't even bother with efficiency.  I say this is the amount of btu's/unit of said fuel and this is what it costs.  I usually do a table showing 20,000-50,000 Btu's in 10,000 btu increments.  If the customer asks I'll factor in AFUE for them.  And 75% is a fair estimate for sure.  Also my pellet stove has a physically noticeable difference in heat transfer efficiency when the exchanger gets really dirty compared to when it's freshly cleaned.  

I heat my house with pellets I like the "to the bone" heat that solid fuel provides compared to forced air or in my case electric baseboards.  Though I will admit, as I have many times before, that I'm considering a NG/Wood mix in the future depending on the price and availability of pellets.  Corn is also an option at a 50/50 mix in my stove but I will only burn corn if pellets are in short supply.


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## smirnov3 (Aug 30, 2006)

HarryBack said:
			
		

> hey, what can I say, Craig!? Built the house in '88....burned oil till 2001, almost always the same amount of oil/year. Bought the stove, burned 5 tons/yr for 4 years now.
> for your questions:
> 
> 1. Nope....the only gas available here is bottled.......expen$ive.....didnt do that OR a freestanding oil stove....why would I? In 4 years in supposed to chuck 2 stoves in the interest of science? naw.
> ...



What's the temp differance in your basement? with my oil heat, the basement stayed only maybe 5-10 F cooler than the rest of the house.


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## PutnamJct (Aug 30, 2006)

My checkbook doesn't lie. Period. If you want to call it a myth that's your right. I don't sell stoves nor do I tell people that my savings are typical.  But I'm keeping the house warmer for less money.  No calculators real or imagined can change that.


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## smirnov3 (Aug 30, 2006)

Well, this will be my first year heating with pellets. last year, I did a room by room survey of the minimum temp reached with my Oil heat set normally (I used a hand-held digital thermomter that records min/max temp). The only room I didn't test was the basement, but I was very comfortable going down there in shirt sleeves to change the litter boxes.

Next spring, I will know how the pellets compare.

But again, my set-up is unusual - my oil heat is from a retrofit  coal furnace that distributes via gravity feed (ie the 'hope & pray' method).  It had to be replaced 

(though it's nice to have as a back-up: it has no moving parts except for the ignitor, so it's pretty reliable)


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## cbrodsky (Aug 30, 2006)

PutnamJct said:
			
		

> My checkbook doesn't lie. Period. If you want to call it a myth that's your right. I don't sell stoves nor do I tell people that my savings are typical.  But I'm keeping the house warmer for less money.  No calculators real or imagined can change that.



Craig's point, and mine, is that your checkbook doesn't tell you the integrated heat of your entire home to the rooms furthest from heat source, it doesn't tell you how well your oil furnace is performing relative to pellets, etc... all factors that can explain the basic thermodynamic fact that the BTUs don't add up.  I have no doubt you're keeping the living room toasty... but something else would give if audited.  Your checkbook can't beat the laws of thermodynamics without help from somewhere else.

-Colin


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## PutnamJct (Aug 30, 2006)

NY Soapstone said:
			
		

> PutnamJct said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oil furnace has not been on since the pellet insert went in. The whole house is warm (70-75 in the den right next to the stove 69-70 in the upstairs bedrooms) except for a downstairs storage room that gets down to 55-60.
The house is a just under 1500 SF split level. I have said repeatedly that my floor plan is NOT typical. It's a funky split level house. The lowest level is a storage room that used to be a garage. The second level is an open six or seven hundred square feet (with the den containing the stove/fireplace) and the upstairs is the bedrooms bath, etc. The roof at the wall over the stove is about 7 feet high and runs up on an angle to the second floor before leveling off. The heat naturally rises in here to keep the upstairs warm.
I kept digital thermometers on all 3 levels to get an accurate sense of the temperature and set the thermostat on the Quad accordingly. 
I can't convince you that the house was warm when the temp outside was in the 20's and it cost me way less then oil so we'll have to agree to disagree. 

The reason I even bought the pellet stove was a friend of mine has a much much larger, open floor plan house that he heats with pellets. He closes off a few rooms (extra bedroom, sun porch, etc) and the room the stove is in is probably 80 degrees in order to keep the rest of the house at 68 or so. I totally get you guys point that pellets are probably not the answer for many people but they work for me and are a heck of alot cheaper then paying the oil ticks......


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## webbie (Aug 30, 2006)

PutnamJct said:
			
		

> My checkbook doesn't lie. Period. If you want to call it a myth that's your right. I don't sell stoves nor do I tell people that my savings are typical.  But I'm keeping the house warmer for less money.  No calculators real or imagined can change that.



My goodness....see what happens when reality hurts!

I have no doubt folks are saving money over LP or electric with Pellets. Whether they are saving big over efficient oil or natural gas is another story. The only way you can dispel the "myth" is to install a Monitor freestanding oil unit and see what that uses compared to the Pellet stove.

Back to my point - simple - a BTU is a BTU is a BTU is a BTU. A Harman BTU is the same as a Travis BTU is the same as an oil BTU and an LP BTU. 

In fact, I'm thinking of writing a book called "You and a BTU" - the entire concept could be laid out on one page.

Heat is Heat
a BTU is a BTU
Every Fuel contains a certain amount of BTU's and these can be verified in a lab (and they are).
The cost per BTU of various fuels can be compared by using the BTU content and the efficiency of various fuels.....

I think that covers it. 

As far as tales and myths, the problem there is as Shane mentioned....one dealer starts with "A ton of pellet is equal to a cord of wood" (what wood species?) - Next thing you know it is TWO CORDS (Yes, I have heard this) - we've also heard from Harry that it is 200 gallons of oil - even through the figures are clear that it is not. So what do we use to make decisions? What the dealertells us? What our friend tells us (that he heard from the other dealer)......we are not selling self help or yoga....you cannot will or think yourself into getting more heat from a fuel.

I say we use the BTU content and efficiency......that's my story and I am sticking to it.


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## webbie (Aug 30, 2006)

Putnam, I understand what you are saying. It works for you - great.

There are a LOT of people who save money using ELECTRIC space heaters, even though the fuel is 4X the price of some others. 
People save money with LP space heaters - again, the fuel is more expensive than most. 

My point is simply that a BTU is a BTU. A Pellet stove will deliver approx 6.000 BTU's to the room for every pound burned - period. What happens after that involves other factors which have nothing to do with the fuel.


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## HarryBack (Aug 30, 2006)

Anton Smirnov said:
			
		

> HarryBack said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



my basement is cooler, no doubt.....but its also a repository ofr junk, and doesnt matter what temp it is as long as my pipes dont freeze....hasnt happened yet.....maybe 40 degrees on the coldest day of February, but Im guessing.


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## HarryBack (Aug 30, 2006)

oh, no, not David_V again! *shiver*.....hey.....Dave_1....David_V.....hmmm.....

I dont think you can just look at the fuel, and make endpoint judgements like that, Craig. A BTU IS a BTU, but thats not the whole equation. The outside boiler issue VS freestanding inside wood burning unit? Both use wood....same fuel, same BTU, but WAY different efficiency!


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## webbie (Aug 31, 2006)

Harry Harry, look at my words:

"I say we use the BTU content and efficiency......that’s my story and I am sticking to it."

Notice efficiency is the second part of the equation....OK, I've had it, I'm calling David V to make certain Harry is not fleecing folks with this 500 gallons of oil = one ton pellets thing.


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## HarryBack (Aug 31, 2006)

noooo......i think its 300 gals/ton! Maybe Ill corner the corn market next....buy up all the futures...make the prices rise, then dump 'em, once Ive made my billions! WHen are you buying corn for your stove, Craig? Actually, corn is being genetically engineered now to provide fairly high BTU's/lb...well over whats commonly available these days.


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## smirnov3 (Aug 31, 2006)

HarryBack said:
			
		

> Anton Smirnov said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is your basement insulated? Mine isn't.

The oil furnace uses a lot of BTUs to warm up that basement. And that probably is what was happening with your house as well (also, my heating pipes run along the outside walls, so it's a race between the heat reaching the radiator & leaking through the insulation)


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## TedNH (Aug 31, 2006)

I think perhaps people are confusing the application of BTU's vs BTU's available.
My furnace is propane fired, might put out 80,000BTUs but if heat system isnt laid out well  it still wont work.

I have a 2500sq/ft open concept house, open living room with cathederal celing up to a loft that leads to the bedroom, downstairs the kitchen is off the living room, entry way is also open to the loft. 2 bedrooms and a bath down the hall.

I have the problem of too much heat in the bedrooms/bath and not enough in the main living area.  The thermostat is located in the open area.  The baseboard heating area isnt enough to get the main area of the house up to temp.  SO the thermostat tells the furnace we want 68* but the room will never get there.  The bedrooms however are 80*.

I put the pellet stove in my house in an attempt to even the heating and reduce my dependance on the propane.


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## webbie (Aug 31, 2006)

Ted, what you are talking about is mentioned earlier - we call it the savings of space heat over central heat. This is true whatever the fuel. Central heat can be quite efficient, but by nature it usually heats all of the house at once - or at least large areas. There can also be delivery problems as you mention.

My guess is that the space heat savings can be from 25% to 50% - of course, with some rooms not being as warm, etc. That's a big savings!

This savings is a big part of the reason for everything from kerosene heaters to electric heaters to wood, pellet and gas stoves and inserts.


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## webbie (Aug 31, 2006)

HarryBack said:
			
		

> noooo......i think its 300 gals/ton! Maybe Ill corner the corn market next....buy up all the futures...make the prices rise, then dump 'em, once Ive made my billions! WHen are you buying corn for your stove, Craig? Actually, corn is being genetically engineered now to provide fairly high BTU's/lb...well over whats commonly available these days.



Corn? I'm coming to Palmer to grab some nuclur pellets! I've heard they are twice as powerful as the western ones. Why burn corn when I can save thousands by using them Palmer Pellets.


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## Jerry (Aug 31, 2006)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> A Pellet stove will deliver approx 6.000 BTU's to the room for every pound burned - period.



Probably a dumb question but most premium pellets advertize 8,000-9,000 BTUs. Why the difference? I appologize if this is common knowledge here. I search it but didn't see anything.


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## Shane (Aug 31, 2006)

He's considering efficiency and an average of 8000 btu/lb 75% efficiency.


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## Jerry (Aug 31, 2006)

Shane said:
			
		

> He's considering efficiency and an average of 8000 btu/lb 75% efficiency.


Thanks. I see that now, going back in the discussion. Duh


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## Jim Doten (Aug 31, 2006)

I have a natural gas furnace and hot water heater, but wanted to get away from using as much NG as I could. I bought my pellet stove to heat as much of the rooms in the house as I could. I don't leave my pellet stove going full time, only when we're home and awake. The insulation of the housekeeps the heat in very well. Maybe that's another factor to look at....still won't make a difference of "BTU's vs BTU's" but may suggest another heating factor. I notice a drop in half every month of my NG bill with the pellet stove "helping out". From Feb on, I burned 30 bags. I figure that the pellet stove pays for itself, but then it may be the "newness thing".


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## cbrodsky (Aug 31, 2006)

The other thing that I did when comparing my results with the wood stove versus prior years was to correct for heating degree days.  Remember that last January was exceptionally warm in the northeast at least - there was a drop of 27% in heating degree days in 2006.  If someone compared a bill for last year January with their new stove against January the year before with oil, you'd be misleading yourself by 27% right off the bat - you simply didn't need as much heat this past January no matter what the system you used.

I think when you hear these claims that someone's wood, pellets, or any other fuel saved them money, you have to first to the energy balance on BTUs and see if it passes that test.  For example, over last year, after correcting for heating degree day differences, I concluded that I saved 320 gallons of oil for the season.  I burned about 2 1/2 cords of wood to accomplish that, and in the process kept most of my house quite a bit warmer - some far corners a little cooler.  On a straight BTU energy balance, a cord of wood is ~150-200 gallons of oil depending on your type of wood, so this at least passes the energy balance test a little better and doesn't make unreasonable claims that can't possibly add up.

If the BTUs you think you saved in your old system doesn't add up with BTUs of wood or other new fuel consumed, then something else is coming into play like inadequate efficiency on their older system, climate differences year to year, space heating that is sacrificing heat to some part of the house, etc...

-Colin


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## TedNH (Aug 31, 2006)

Good Point NY Soap.

However even with our mild Jan I still only burned 100 gallons less propane in 05-06 than I did in 04-05.
To me the pellet stove is about applying the right amount of heat in the right place while trying to save some $ on propane use.
IF all goes as planned I expect to 1/2 my propane use...maybe more.
Between that and the Civic Hybrid we purchased last winter Im way ahead of the oil sheiks.


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## smirnov3 (Aug 31, 2006)

TedNH said:
			
		

> Between that and the Civic Hybrid we purchased last winter Im way ahead of the oil sheiks.



no, no, NO! Don't metion Hybred cars here, or you'll get the whole "my 70's dodge had 2 cylinders and ran for a whole year on a gallon of gas" thread started again.


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## HarryBack (Aug 31, 2006)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> HarryBack said:
> 
> 
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*sigh*
Craig, i know you are from Jersey, but to fit in, as long as you are pronouncing nucular the right way, just so you know....Palmer is pronounced Parmer.


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## PutnamJct (Sep 1, 2006)

OK Back to the regularly scheduled program.....  

Home Despot has "Stove Chow" pellets @ $279 a ton
Local DIY Chain has "Energex" @$262 a ton


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## webbie (Sep 1, 2006)

PutnamJct said:
			
		

> OK Back to the regularly scheduled program.....
> 
> Home Despot has "Stove Chow" pellets @ $279 a ton
> Local DIY Chain has "Energex" @$262 a ton



Ah, putnam - your figures gave me a great math idea and it turns out that it works.....

Just take the pellet price per ton and move the decimal 2 places, you have the approx. price of oil that it would be comparable to - BTU for BTU, with default deficiencies. Note that this does not take the miracle of Hanukah into the figures - but at the fuel cost calculator, it works out.

So, $279.00 a ton is equal to $2.79 a gallon. On course, the oil does not have to picked up at that price!

Then again, oil does not grow on trees and people have not been known to have romantic interludes in front of their oil burner.


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## PutnamJct (Sep 1, 2006)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Ah, putnam - your figures gave me a great math idea and it turns out that it works.....



Oh man, are you still picking on me about my nucular pellets :lol: 

Believe it or not oil up here is $2.69 a gallon.

What a bargain!!


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## BrotherBart (Sep 1, 2006)

"Then again, oil does not grow on trees and people have not been known to have romantic interludes in front of their oil burner."

Now on the other hand, in their car... ;-P


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## begreen (Sep 2, 2006)

Pellets still selling here at $180/ton or less if you shop harder. I wish we could get oil for $1.80/gal. Currently $2.99.


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## HarryBack (Sep 2, 2006)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> PutnamJct said:
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And, of course, oil isnt renewable, and part of that pellet profit doesnt go into funding terrorism either. I also dont recall the last romatic interlude Ive had in front of my pellet stove either...with 4 kids running around (that was b4 the pellet stove).

okok- new pricing as follows:
New England Premium Hardwood Pellets- $259/ton  (~8300 BTU's/lb)
New England Standard Pellets- $219/ton (~7600 BTU's/lb)
Quality Premium Softwood Pellets- $239/ton
Allegheny Premium Pellets- $259/ton
all "picked up" pricing

also, supplies are drying up in our area with the hardwood pellets, softwoods still readily available....checked Lowes' pricing, the salesperson had no idea what brand it was, what type of pellet either...they only knew they were $279/ton. Home Depot didnt have any yet.


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## webbie (Sep 2, 2006)

Starting to get into the realm of ridiculous......when it hit $300 a ton delivered, in my opinion, it is in a total "leisure" category.....about equal to $350-$400 a cord hardwood.
It will be interesting to see how supply and demand works in the future - while it may be easy to pump another stove off the assembly line, building a pellet plant and then supplying it with material and creating a supply chain is a little harder.

Of course, by another measure, at $300 people could just exaggerate a little more...
"I heat my entire house in upstate NY with only 6 - OH, I mean 4 tons of Pellets".

Also, Harry could include some plastic sheets with each pellet stove - to close off 1/2 of the house!

Looks like I'll have to go on a quest for corn or cherry pits!


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## Michael6268 (Sep 2, 2006)

Large distributor in my area - "Sold out entire stock for season"  over 10,000 tons.   Will be getting trucks "here and there" throughtout the season.  Said people were ready to kill him!  I know money is tight, but it was to be expected, and people should have bought early... Also noticed the sign at Agway advertising pellets is down.


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## webbie (Sep 2, 2006)

RE: Funding terror....

Just you wait - The Saudi and other middle east investment groups already own vast blocks of many public-traded companies.....
A Kuwati company was in charge of security at the WTC at the time of the attacks.

For all we know, they have bought paper companies and own 1/2 of Maine!
Yes, it's a small, small world.

As it is now, you can only be sure if you cut the trees on your land by yourself (and I'd bet some of the tools are owned by the Saudis and Kuwaitis also).....


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## webbie (Sep 2, 2006)

Michael6268 said:
			
		

> Large distributor in my area - "Sold out entire stock for season"  over 10,000 tons.   Will be getting trucks "here and there" throughtout the season.  Said people were ready to kill him!  I know money is tight, but it was to be expected, and people should have bought early... Also noticed the sign at Agway advertising pellets is down.



Where?

Harry, has anyone done a real study on the amount of Pellets compared to the projected increase in stove sales? In other words, does anyone know what is going on? Talk about customer problems.....a lot of $3000 stoves with no fuel or fuel at 50% extra markup is not going to make for happy campers.


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## Michael6268 (Sep 2, 2006)

BT Enterprises (BT=burntime)  Bristol CT.


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## elkimmeg (Sep 2, 2006)

So far the two largest rstove retailers wood stoves /inserts are out selling pellet stoves about 18 to 1  Last year  till stock ran out  all pellet stove stock sold out by Oct one and many  that bought afterwards had to wait till Jan to recieve their back ordered pellet stove.

 Last years pellet shortage and the current pellet price has  created a pellet stove buying backlash. On the wood stove front many have taken to scrounging early and often Or purchasing cheap last spring The ones that get into the game late will be paying quite a bit more for cord wood and probably not seasoned enough

 Not much has been said about bio logs eitherpriceing or availblity?


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## mdphilps (Sep 2, 2006)

Just bought a ton of Energex premium pellets for $219 in SE Pennsylvania.


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## Retired_Ted (Sep 2, 2006)

Franklin Hardware in Chambersburg PA has 'em for $211.50 per T.  That's the cheapest I've seen yet around here.  Most have pretty good stocks, so far.  Hoping 2 T will do me. (supplemental)


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## NWfuel (Sep 2, 2006)

Seattle Wash. Pellets 199.50 picked up, add 100.00 for delivery
        8lb Energy logs  235.00 per 240 (pallet) picked up, 315.00 for delivery
        1 Cord 16" dry Maple delivered and dumped 357.50

Raw materials for logs and pellets on the short side.

I notice cord customers are increasing their orders over last year. 600 cords going fast. I would love to learn how to post you guys some pictures of 600 cords all stacked in 1/3 cord pallets at the processing yard before its gone.

Oh ya! Super Cedar Firestarters plentiful. Kick off your Cat stove 20% faster with Super Cedar and prolong the life, (Sud Chemie 2005 letter on request) with a FREE sample of collector edition Hearth.com label email physical shipping address to forstarts@aol.com. 

Thank you for your time
Thomas


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## Michael6268 (Sep 2, 2006)

I dont burn pellets, but I still dont understand the reasoning behind the cost difference in the NorthEast vs. everywhere else, perticularly CT.    Having burnt pellets in the past and remembering years ago when I bought them for 90.00 a ton, yes 90.00, I still do pay attention to the pricing, and the lowest I have seen in Central/Northern CT is 269.00 a ton. One place was chargeing 310.00 weeks ago!


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## webbie (Sep 2, 2006)

As with anything else, there is a certain "fad" element in the recent rush to Pellets....certainly there are many "regular" buyers also, but my guess is that the fad is driving up sales at least 50-100% over what it might be. This also drives up the price of pellets. If buyers said "I'm not buying these at that price", well - they certainly would not sell for that price.

CT is an interesting place and hard to get a handle on as a market. Just as NW Fuels has firewood customers at 350+ a cord (probably same in Boston or certain places on the cape), some CT customers would pay $500 a ton for pellets. For those who have not been to CT, it is a beautiful place but vast areas of it are like large (and wealthy) suburbs. Lots of NYC money flows to CT. 

I remember when CB radios were all the rage - 40 channels and you could not talk because hundreds of folks were on each channel!

I hope alternative materials and higher ash pellets come online soon......there are a lot of mouths (pellet stoves) to feed.


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## HarryBack (Sep 4, 2006)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Michael6268 said:
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> 
> ...



We are up 81% over same time last year in pellet sales. Stoves are up, but nowhere near as much...15%? (although thats something considering last year- I evpected a drop from last year). Part of the problem might be the "allocation" of pellets tho...up until this year, the pellet co's would allow dealers to stck up early at somewhat reduced prices. Of course, all dealers dont do this because of lack of storage space. the reason this was done was supposedly to "smooth" out the pellet inventories, make more available later in the year. WHat it seems to have done is limit supplies yet again. One supplier tells me they have extra softwood pellets, and are raising their prices because the was LESS than expected demand, and they are now having to pay warehousing fees. So, they have extra. They are upset with their dealers because the delaers committed to alot, and never took delivery (not me, by the way). Another supplier is supplying their dealers with roughtly half of their monthly allocation. The rumor is, their warehouse is empty. There are supposed to be more pellets coming into the Northeast, for instance a bagging mill in Palmer, Ma, but it likely wont be online till October. That mill is supposed to supply 80,000 tons of softwood pellets into the NE market. Thats really not much, certainly not enough to cover the stoves sold. 
What we've done this year is make a fairly large investment in pellets, both softwood and hardwood. Us New Englanders dont like to burn softwood pellets for some reason, and some are gonna "wait" for the hardwoods...a mistake, i believe. Ive burned them all....softwoods, hardwoods, premiums, standards, industrials. I dont see a big difference between soft and hardwoods on the premium level....maybe a little more deposits on the glass with softwoods, thats all. Anyways, the folks who buy stoves from us this year, we guarantee 3 tons of pelelts with the units, as long as they invoice them with the stoves. We arent guaranteeing hardwoods, just pellets...might very well be softwood. And they MUST be invoiced with the units....its the only way I can ensure the supply. I cant hold inventory back hoping folks are gonna come in. So far, its worked well. We dont sell any pellets we dont have on the ground either.....no preselling....cant rely on the allocation system...what happens if the mill breaks down or burns? That said, at the moment we are OUT of hardwood pellets, we have only Softwoods...Quality Brand, from Bristish Colombia, $239/ton. The hardwoods sell like mad. For instance, last Thursday, we received 3 t/l's of hardwoods, thats 100 tons...we were sold out of them by 10:30 Saturday. As of 4pm Saturday, we had 400 tons of softwood available....we'll see how it goes. 

50% extra markup?! wow! Who is getting that? Im not sure where folks stop buying pellets either....I know they'll pay $259/ton picked up, not alot of folks shutting down the stoves at that price...$300? who knows? We also charge for delivery, thats not included above in the $259/ton. Costs us serious cash to deliver these things....truck, driver, insurance, taxes, etc. We try to get folks to pick them up, but around half have them delivered. 

In short, no, I dont think anyone knows whats going on, both on the pellet supply side, and the how-much-will-folks-pay-before-they-burn-alternative-fuels side. I do know that most likely stove supply will outstrip pellet supply if it already hasnt. I also do know that procrastinators will always pay more if they wait...if they can even get any.....but youve heard me say that before and often. Theres a cheap time to buy fuel, and an expensive time..


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## webbie (Sep 4, 2006)

Looking back into history...relatively recent - Coal was KING in 1981-1984, as folks found that the price was good compared to wood and it required less time and energy. However, when oil got cheap and stayed cheap, coal stove sales went to virtually ZERO. My guess would be a 90 to 95% reduction in the sales of these stoves. 

People were very happy with the stoves and with the heat, but when push came to shove....if oil was the same price or cheaper, the coal stove was left to die.

Now, this is all speculation, but let's say more and more pellet stoves are sold and in a few years most are out of warranty. Then, oil comes down or stays down. Then, a combination of  expensive pellets AND expensive service/parts replacement could make a certain type of customer either stop or slow their burning.

Of couse, the same applies to wood and other fuels. But this is not far-out speculation. Maybe I am paranoid, but having lived through at least THREE of these boom-busts:

Coal Stoves
Pellet Stoves (early boom and bust)
Kerosene Heaters

I don't see where things have changed that much. In my eyes, the key is:
#1 Pellets - good supply at good prices
#2 Stoves - Reliable and relatively inexpensive to fix or replace parts when needed

The point being that people will put up with one or the other not existing, but probably not both.

Just a few short years ago, gas was virtually the entire hearth industry. Our shop was always big into wood, even if 50% of our sales were gas....but we had competitors that were 90% gas!


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## GVA (Sep 4, 2006)

Does anyone here in the northeast know if New England pellet ever opened a plant in Mass like they planned?

I know a large part of the increase in pellet prices were due in part to higher fuel charges not just in manufacturing (extruding and drying)but in the actual shipping costs associated with bringing them to the local distributers, add to that supply and demand and we may be paying alot more for pellets than we have been used to.  Are pellet stoves a fad?
I don't really know but It seems to me That some pellet companies are trying to increase thier profits based on the trends of the markets Hopefully they will take the profits to help them increase thier production so there won't be a shortage in the future (like a couple of years ago).  Lets all hope that they will not be like the big oil companies who can extract the oil from the ground and not be able to refine it, and then post record profits in the billions.  Maybe I should move to Florida.

Getting back to the point why does it cost the same for pellets that are made 70 miles from my house and pellets that are shipped from Canada.


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## hearthtools (Sep 4, 2006)

Michael6268 said:
			
		

> I dont burn pellets, but I still dont understand the reasoning behind the cost difference in the NorthEast vs. everywhere else, perticularly CT.    Having burnt pellets in the past and remembering years ago when I bought them for 90.00 a ton, yes 90.00, I still do pay attention to the pricing, and the lowest I have seen in Central/Northern CT is 269.00 a ton. One place was chargeing 310.00 weeks ago!



Shipping !
If you are near a mill (Washington State and Oregon) the pellets are less because the shipping is less.

My cost of Pellet have gone up $15 per ton in 5 years.
My cost of Shipping (FROM SAME LOCATION) has GONE UP (doubled) over $53.00 MORE per ton in the past 5 years.

It has nothing to do with Fad (if you call pellet stoves a 20 year fad)

I wish I could sell them cheeper.
I dont mind seeing big box stores sell pellets cheep.
even if it hurts my sales.


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## HarryBack (Sep 4, 2006)

GVA said:
			
		

> Does anyone here in the northeast know if New England pellet ever opened a plant in Mass like they planned?
> 
> I know a large part of the increase in pellet prices were due in part to higher fuel charges not just in manufacturing (extruding and drying)but in the actual shipping costs associated with bringing them to the local distributers, add to that supply and demand and we may be paying alot more for pellets than we have been used to.  Are pellet stoves a fad?
> I don't really know but It seems to me That some pellet companies are trying to increase thier profits based on the trends of the markets Hopefully they will take the profits to help them increase thier production so there won't be a shortage in the future (like a couple of years ago).  Lets all hope that they will not be like the big oil companies who can extract the oil from the ground and not be able to refine it, and then post record profits in the billions.  Maybe I should move to Florida.
> ...


Ill do ya one better, GVA...why does it cost me the same to get pellets from British Columbia and from 70 miles away? Conundrum, huh?


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## GVA (Sep 4, 2006)

I'm sorry for any confusion on the subject.
Last year local news stations here in the northeast were telling everyone to buy a pellet stove...  Well things went nutty
I couldn't get pellets in august and was told next shipments were in october..
Prices went from 199 a ton to in many cases over 300 a ton 
I paid 320 for one of my five tons last year and hope that does not happen again
One dealer in May of 06' wanted $358 per ton and said the days of $200 a ton are over......
This is what I meant by Fad
So many more people were buying pellet stoves last year the pellet companies couldn't keep up in the early part of the season.
I just hope the pellet companies can keep up with the estimated demands this year or we are all gonna be cold this winter.

So yes in a way I hope what happened last year is just a fad everything calms down in the future.


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## HarryBack (Sep 4, 2006)

I dont think they can yet GVA....not enough increase in production to cover this year and last years' stoves.


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## HarryBack (Sep 5, 2006)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> PutnamJct said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



heres a fuel calculator that might help you folks here.......

http://www.pelletheat.org/3/residential/compareFuel.cfm

I have no idea what gas sells for, but I do with oil....$2.40 today, pellets around $239-$259/ton.....plug em in.


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## vgrund (Sep 5, 2006)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> As with anything else, there is a certain "fad" element in the recent rush to Pellets....certainly there are many "regular" buyers also, but my guess is that the fad is driving up sales at least 50-100% over what it might be. This also drives up the price of pellets. If buyers said "I'm not buying these at that price", well - they certainly would not sell for that price.
> 
> CT is an interesting place and hard to get a handle on as a market. Just as NW Fuels has firewood customers at 350+ a cord (probably same in Boston or certain places on the cape), some CT customers would pay $500 a ton for pellets. For those who have not been to CT, it is a beautiful place but vast areas of it are like large (and wealthy) suburbs. Lots of NYC money flows to CT.
> 
> ...



I suppose you could count me as someone who was keen to jump into pellets, but timing allowed me to recognize the market dynamics and as a result I thought better of it.  I'm still looking at two open masonry fireplaces and wondering what to do.  All I know for sure is that pellets aren't a great choice given the economics in southern New Hampshire.  Pellets are running $280/ton at our local Harmon dealer, and let's not forget the kilobuck investment to get started.  It's not likely to improve soon and I'm not about to start following "pellet pricing" threads at the level of interest of an owner.  High ash is of interest and most useful to central heating folks and those with full (non-insert) stoves.  Last year I procastinated by improving energy efficiency and I'll likely do more of the same this year.  Perhaps next year I'll add an old-fashioned, non-pellet wood insert in our family room.  I'm toying with the idea of a gas insert in the lessor used living room.  We're on LP here, which is atrocious, but I'm not sure I want to deal with two wood burners.

Victor


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## webbie (Sep 5, 2006)

RE: The calculator at Pellet heat.....

Plugged in 299 a ton for Pellets (that is the delivered price, it seems) and lowered the efficiency to 75%, because no way these products have AFLUE of 87% as the default is listed there. 75 is a high number and probably a good number.

Plugged in current fuel oil price, as an example - in Portland, ME.  About $2.30 cash delivered.
http://maineoil.com/

Given those prices, pellets are about 15% more than oil. 

Anyway you want to look at it, it is close - prices vary by locales, but in the eastern seaboard most will find the fuels either identical or so close as not to make a financial difference.


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## smirnov3 (Sep 5, 2006)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> RE: The calculator at Pellet heat.....
> 
> Plugged in 299 a ton for Pellets (that is the delivered price, it seems) and lowered the efficiency to 75%, because no way these products have AFLUE of 87% as the default is listed there. 75 is a high number and probably a good number.
> 
> ...



You forgot to put in the disclaimer that you are comparing direct vent / area heaters, NOT pellet stoves to oil central heating systems (where you have to factor in the efficiency of the heat transfer system).


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## BrotherBart (Sep 5, 2006)

While natural gas is at a twenty month low and oil is headed down.


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## webbie (Sep 5, 2006)

vgrund said:
			
		

> [
> I suppose you could count me as someone who was keen to jump into pellets, but timing allowed me to recognize the market dynamics and as a result I thought better of it.
> All I know for sure is that pellets aren't a great choice given the economics in southern New Hampshire.  Pellets are running $280/ton at our local Harmon dealer, and let's not forget the kilobuck investment to get started.  It's not likely to improve soon and I'm not about to start following "pellet pricing" threads at the level of interest of an owner.  High ash is of interest and most useful to central heating folks and those with full (non-insert) stoves.  Last year I procastinated by improving energy efficiency and I'll likely do more of the same this year.  Perhaps next year I'll add an old-fashioned, non-pellet wood insert in our family room.  I'm toying with the idea of a gas insert in the lessor used living room.  We're on LP here, which is atrocious, but I'm not sure I want to deal with two wood burners.
> 
> Victor



You are exactly the customer type I was referring to. Someone who does their homework and is not listening to the chatter that says "I heat my house with "X" tons of pellets", but actually comparing fuels and appliances....including up front costs.

Heck, the work on the house (conservation) is the best possible investment you can make. 

I agree about keeping two woodstoves going. That leave you with either keeping one empty, or installing LP or Pellets.

With either of those fuels, the price will not matter as much for occassional use. When it get you is when you run it for many hours a day. How much is LP gas?

LP contains about 100,000 BTU per gallon, which means one gallon is equal to about 12.5 lbs of pellets.
or roughly 3 gallons for a 40 lb bag of pellets.

So, LP at $2.00 a gallon is close to Pellets at $299 (delivered) - the LP may be a 5-10%  more per BTU, but when you figure in the hauling of the bags, removing ash, etc. we can call it equal.....So it all depends on what you can get LP for.


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## webbie (Sep 5, 2006)

Anton Smirnov said:
			
		

> You forgot to put in the disclaimer that you are comparing direct vent / area heaters, NOT pellet stoves to oil central heating systems (where you have to factor in the efficiency of the heat transfer system).



This does not apply, because you can buy oil or LP freestanding space heaters.....
We are just comparing BTU to BTU.....you can have pellet and corn central heaters and you can have oil or electric space heaters.

So, there is no disagreement about the potential savings of space heat, closing off rooms, being cooler in certain parts of the house, and basking in the glow of the fire with your love.

BTW, a well designed central heating system in a well designed house is quite efficient. Same with cooling. I'll take central air any day over a bunch of window units running 24/7. 

Since most modern furnaces and boilers are 84-92% efficient, the only question is where the heat goes. Certainly some heats the basement - but a lot of people want that. Proper zoning can go a long way toward making certain heat is delivered where it needs to be.

Central heating is a GREAT idea, and I would never want to go too far backward. 

Ah, that give me an even better idea about efficient space heat - We each wear a space suit type thing with a tiny Pellet Burner located in it. We could burn just a handful of pellets and stay warm for hours in our little "space". Using Harrys pellets, we could probably get by with about 12 pellets per day. The result would be that customer would pay much more for pellets since they stretch so far!


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## Mike Wilson (Sep 5, 2006)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Ah, that give me an even better idea about efficient space heat - We each wear a space suit type thing with a tiny Pellet Burner located in it. We could burn just a handful of pellets and stay warm for hours in our little "space".



Put the Bong down Craig...

-- Mike


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## HarryBack (Sep 5, 2006)

Anton Smirnov said:
			
		

> Webmaster said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



and the fact that you are conveniently picking lower pricing on oil and higher pricing on pellets to further skew the comparison......

http://www.newenglandoil.com/mass.htm

pick an area, average the cost, you dont get $2.30/gal ANYWHERE in New England.....
most pellet dealers dont get a per ton delivery charge either, rather a per delivery charge.....for instance, 3 tons plus over 15 miles one way is $65.00 TOTAL, not per ton......
now, being charitable and giving the oil 80% efficiency and pellets 80% as well, figuring on oil averaging a much more realistic $2.55/gal, and pellets averaging a more realistic $279/ton (delivered), and that same calculator puts oil more expensive....go figure. 

http://www.pelletheat.org/3/residential/compareFuel.cfm

I cant predict what oil is going to cost this winter. Will it stay low or will it increase? The thing is, the pellet folk will have "locked in" their winter fuel prices by buying their winters worth early (most do, rather than buy a ton at a time). Possibly a more realistic comparison might be to compare this winter's retail oil futures prices, where the folks "lock in" their oil prices all winter? The number for that here is $2.699/gal....lets see if that makes a difference....that works out to around $3.00/Million btu's more expensive for oil. Obviously, burning oil is much more convenient than pellets as well....just let the oilman fill the tank, no work involved, rather than stacking the pellets wherever you have to...Im not sure what the nuisance factor is there tho.


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## PutnamJct (Sep 5, 2006)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> RE: The calculator at Pellet heat.....
> 
> Plugged in 299 a ton for Pellets (that is the delivered price, it seems) and lowered the efficiency to 75%, because no way these products have AFLUE of 87% as the default is listed there. 75 is a high number and probably a good number.
> 
> ...



Oil is not available today for $2.30 cash delivered in lower NY. Try $2.59 - $2.69 per gallon. Pellets at $299 a ton is at the exteme high end of the game and you can get them closer to $240 a ton (which is still high) . Using your numbers you are totally setting up the calculator to skew towards oil. Your numbers may be accurate in Maine, but not down here. 
The day oil drops to $2.30 or less a gallon and I'm buying pellets at $300 a ton, the stove gets unplugged.

From the calculator:
Wood Pellets
Cost per ton in dollars
$239
Appliance Efficiency 
Cost per million BTU=$18.22

Fuel Oil #2
Cost per gallon in dollars
$2.69
Appliance Efficiency 
Cost per million BTU=$24.37

Electricity
Cost per kWh in cents
¢13
Appliance Efficiency 
Cost per million BTU=$47.63


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## webbie (Sep 5, 2006)

I was taking prices from Harry at 259, which he said were the biggest sellers and then adding $30 or so for delivery.

Even harrys calculation shows the fuels within 10% of each other - that is no difference at all.

It is evident that there are areas where oil is cheaper and other where pellets are, but I would bet that if we take the average price of the delivered fuels in New England in the next 2-4 weeks, it would turn out to be approx. equal. And, remember, my point and concern are for the industry. Putnam says that $313 is completely ridiculous and that the day they hit $300 and oil goes down a little, the stove goes off....

My point exactly! Two tons from harry of the good stuff delivered outside your house is anout $290 - that is not too far from $300 or $313.

So, what is the figure that breaks the camels back?

Don't want an answer.....I just want our industry to prosper and customers to be happy....but they won't be if they cannot get fuel at reasonable prices. My "job" is customer education....simple as that. The biggest selling space heaters in the world are electric ones - the ones with the highest cost of fuel. So there will always be a market, even at $300+ a ton, but Harman and others might have a tough time paying the mortgage on the new digs if price spikes and availability is low.

BTW, I am doing a picture and video tour of a Pellet Plant next week, so I'll be able to post a pictorial on the process.


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## webbie (Sep 5, 2006)

Harry said:
.just let the oilman fill the tank, no work involved, rather than stacking the pellets wherever you have to...Im not sure what the nuisance factor is there tho.

--------------------

Well,  let's guess at it - per ton:
1. Haul 50 - 40 pound bags from where delivery is to longer term storage - I'll say this is worth about $15. (cheap)
2. Haul same 50 bags into house and empty into stove - give that another $15.
3. Dispose of 50 plastic bags and of the ash produced - we'll set a bargain at $10
4. We will not include the dust from pellet pouring, ash, etc. nor maintaining the stove.

This is a total of $40.00 per ton. 
Using harrys numbers above....279/ton plus 40 - this makes the pellets higher than $2.55 oil.

What has become clear, I think, is that the monetary gain is not the primary reason for purchase of a Pellet stove in the Northeast......now, the customer may or may not know this, but that does not change the facts. However, the idea of renewable fuel, sticking it to the "man" ( the oil men and OPEC) and the idea of a fire in the living area are good sales points in themselves....let alone the idea of a backup system (especially for those Pellet Stoves that run off backup batteries).

Now, if you are down the road from some large corn storage facilities, or near a Pellet plant, things can look different.....and a lot of people are. The heartland is just FILLED with corn.

Anyway, the idea of so many of our luxury items paying for themselves is a strange one. Last time I looked the only things I have that actually pay for themselves are tools!

Interesting point about the media telling people they should buy pellet stoves for heat. Even our trade org has long taken the tact that stoves and fireplaces are a part of life - just like a TV....have a nice looking one in every room, etc - but the message for the last two decades has never been to heat your house! Then, all of a sudden we have uneducated media types broadcasting live with a pellet or corn stove dealer saying "get 'em while they are hot".


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## HarryBack (Sep 5, 2006)

sure, but my nuisance factor makes wood expensive too, doesnt it? If its free you are starting from $0, but if you are paying the going rate here, $200/cord, doesnt that make it expensive as well? I think the nuisance facotr for would is considerably higher than pellets or coal........but, if you are getting the wood for free, or scrounging it, more power to you.
I wish I knew where the magic number was for pellets. Everything is so interrelated its difficult to tell. We all know we have to have heat, be it electric, gas, pellet, wood, coal, etc. I think the pellet price in the northeast is an abberation at the moment and pray for the day we have more local pellets to hopefully lower the cost. I see the prices the folks pay out west and south and its amazing. I make the same money on a ton if it costs me $100/ton or $300/ton...we dont work the percentages. I do agree there is a certain number where any fuel wont be bought....the coal example of Craig's was a good one. In the 70's we sold huge amounts of Riteway coal/wood stoves. nowRiteway is out of bisiness...has been for a long time. Look at the coal dealers. There arent many left. We've sold coal since before the turn of the century, and I dont have to tell you the coal biz is a shadow of what it once was. I wonder if this doesnt bode badly for wood as well. If a bunch of folks pounce on the wood bandwagon, buying and scrounging wood, I would think there would be a shortage there as well. If you have 10 guys in your town scrounging, no dig deal, but what if there were 100?


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## cbrodsky (Sep 5, 2006)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> I was taking prices from Harry at 259, which he said were the biggest sellers and then adding $30 or so for delivery.
> 
> Even harrys calculation shows the fuels within 10% of each other - that is no difference at all.



So then add in something like $3K for the installed cost of the pellet stove, and let's assume someone uses about 100 million BTUs per year to heat their home - you're saving roughly $200 per year.  You're not doing any better than dropping that $3K in a CD and kicking back while the oil man does it all for you.

Also interesting that the same pellet stove site makes the case that purchased cordwood or coal is half the cost.  At least there you get something for all your work...

-Colin


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## begreen (Sep 5, 2006)

That can still be fuzzy math - there are too many variables such as the age and efficiency of the furnace, lost heat due to uninuslated or leaky ductwork, future prices of oil, pellets, etc. Also, you'll likely never resell your furnace. Keep the pellet stove in good condition and buy a good brand and you may be able to recoup a good part of the investment. 

As noted before, our price for pellets remained relatively constant over 5 yrs. Stove sold for 50% of what we paid for it. Savings over propane was greater than 50%. So for us, pellets were a bargain and kept us more comfortably warm. 

We have a regional advantage right now, but I'm pushing for leadership that recognizes this renewable source of heat and helps perfect it where sawdust, corn, grass, etc. is plentiful. I want to see those delivery fees drop and the local propane truck replaced with a pellet delivery truck that blows them into a big hopper.  Harry, you're to the point where you could probably make this work. Think of all the oil that goes into those virgin vinyl bags and then to the landfill. For me, it's time to stop having our policies dictated by our addiction to oil. If it costs a bit more in the short term, then perhaps the govt. should switch subsidization from oil to wood.


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## smirnov3 (Sep 5, 2006)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Anton Smirnov said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Maybe, but even assuming 80% efficiency, with an 80% efficient central furnace, that means 64% over all efficiency

And many older homes don't have a very good heat distribution system. They often have hot water radiators, with the hot water pipes running along the outer walls.

For instance, my 80 year old colonial has insulation that was installed about 15 years ago. The furnace is rated at 78% efficiency. 

I burnt 1400 gallons of oil last year, keeping a 2000 SqFt house at 66F. Some of my radiators on the second floor never got past luke-warm.


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## smirnov3 (Sep 5, 2006)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> If it costs a bit more in the short term, then perhaps the govt. should switch subsidization from oil to wood.



There is a company out there called Changing World Technologies that makes fuel oil out of farm waste. They were complaining that the US gov't wasn't willing to give them any tax breaks / incentives. Their claim was that regular, 'dig the oil out of the ground' companies get gov't subsidies that total about $1 per gallon (so that means that all you pellet burners and wood scroungers are still paying for oil   ).

FYI, Changing World Technologies is moving operations to europe.


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## vgrund (Sep 5, 2006)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> With either of those fuels, the price will not matter as much for occassional use. When it get you is when you run it for many hours a day. How much is LP gas?
> 
> LP contains about 100,000 BTU per gallon, which means one gallon is equal to about 12.5 lbs of pellets.
> or roughly 3 gallons for a 40 lb bag of pellets.
> ...



Well, it is always moving target year to year but IIRC our price this season is around $2.04 gallon.  Thus your ballpark analysis is very close to my reality.  

The upfront investment for anything seems to be quite substantial to do things right whether gas, pellet, or wood (reline, cap, ...).  Not to mention, there are some hack dealers around here recommending installations that terminate inside the chimney and don't use a full liner.  There is no point in a cheap/unsafe installation, but one has to self-educate substantially just to weed out bad advice from so-called professionals.  If I had to go through the same process when selecting a dishwasher or a clothes dryer I'd lose my mind.  

Let's assume I'll do wood in one and the debate is what to do about the other, LP or pellet. One significant factor, fuels being roughly equal, is that my lessor used fireplace already has 60K BTU LP gas logs (these should have no place in the world, what a sucker "decorative appliance"!).  I don't have to run a gas line if I opt for LP fuel but if I choose another fuel I'll have to pay to remove it.  I would have to imagine that LP inserts are less complicated / expensive than pellet inserts, too, but I've not done any comparison shopping yet.  Also as you say, there is the maintenance factor as well.

Victor


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## kevinlp (Sep 5, 2006)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> vgrund said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Costs us 2.45 if we prebuy more than 500 gallons. Less than 500 gallons is 2.75. We prebought none. Gonna make the stove earn its keep.


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## vgrund (Sep 5, 2006)

Kevin said:
			
		

> Costs us 2.45 if we prebuy more than 500 gallons. Less than 500 gallons is 2.75. We prebought none. Gonna make the stove earn its keep.



That, sir, is what I call an incentive to conserve.  We have a good price for our area, I hear the same thing every year.  But then again we buy at least 1700 gallons per year (it was a lot more before I got started fixing things, I assure you).  Our propane company offers two programs, one is essentially a budget plan with monthly payments spread over 10 months and a discounted fixed buy price, the other is a prepay plan which offers a few cents less per gallon for those willing to tie up their money all season.  We do better in the markets than we do with the few cents savings.

I'm just lucky I have one of the more reasonable suppliers.  I have heard of others in the same town paying .40 - .60 more per gallon for similar volumes.  The problem with my area is that the propane company owns the buried 500-gal propane tank.  They have "right of first refusal" meaning it is very difficult to shop around.  I think I'd have to arrange a transfer of ownership to switch suppliers.  

Victor


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## MountainStoveGuy (Sep 11, 2006)

Update for the west. My supplier arent shipping me squat. They are claiming raw material shortages, due to the weak construction industry and weak economy, for the reason that they cant produce. So i will soon be forced to buy pellets from a local distrubitor for darn near reatail. Home depot is $5.69/bag I will be at $6.50 if i cant get pellets direct.  Currenty my price is holding at $5.00 with 40 tons left. I have a one ton limit now.


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## Roospike (Sep 11, 2006)

MountainStoveGuy said:
			
		

> Update for the west. My supplier arent shipping me squat. They are claiming raw material shortages, due to the weak construction industry and weak economy, for the reason that they cant produce. So i will soon be forced to buy pellets from a local distrubitor for darn near reatail. Home depot is $5.69/bag I will be at $6.50 if i cant get pellets direct.  Currenty my price is holding at $5.00 with 40 tons left. I have a one ton limit now.


Already ? ......... I dont understand the "weak construction industry " part . The price of lumbar went sky high with all the stuff down south and the big supply and demand .... Where is all the scrap from that ? Something sound fishy bout that story.


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## moralleper (Sep 11, 2006)

When you say "west" were are you talking about?  In my area, SW Washington, $5 per bag is only for the non local pellets like Lignetics, and Eureka.


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## MountainStoveGuy (Sep 11, 2006)

and prices will hold in your area as long as your suppliers have good stock. I cant speak for all the pellet mills, just the three that i deal with. But it is somwhat a red flag.


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## Xena (Sep 11, 2006)

Today in Southeastern Massachusetts:
Home Depot in Avon MA looking for 279 per ton.
Feed/Grain store in Taunton not much prettier
at 265 per ton.  

I saw oil prices as low as 2.15 per gallon in my area.
Pellet stove may be used as ornamental furniture this year
after the 3/4 ton I have from last year is gone.
We will see what transpires.


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## Roospike (Sep 12, 2006)

Pellets are running for $399.00 - $425.00 a ton on Ebay ........... This is getting out of hand. The funny thing is people are still buying them at $400.00 a ton ! Some people need to do the math. Its just crazy .


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## webbie (Sep 12, 2006)

I suppose some people will pay $500 a ton, but it bodes very poorly for the future of the business. If I were a pellet stove maker or pellet producer, I would shake in my boots when I heard this stuff!

For years stove dealers and producers have been telling people to save money with low cost home grown pellet fuel. Now we see Pellet producers pricing what the market will bear - exactly like oil producers. Of course, that's the story with just about anything - people are not going to sell things for less than the top dollar they can get, but they are likely to hasten the death of the goose that laid the golden egg.


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## Homefire (Sep 12, 2006)

I paid $240 a ton last week..... but that included delivery from 40 miles away and stacked in my garage.
That may have been a little steep but it is the best I can find in CNY.

.


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## Roospike (Sep 12, 2006)

What would be nice to find out is of all the owners of pellets stove and had some kinda stats on how many owners use the pellet stoves for 100% of there heat , 75% heat 50% heat or just buy under a ton to turn on the stove on the weekends / at night after work ect...ect... I can almost amagine the stats on the fireplace as used mostly for the ambient heat and i would also think the wood stove owner is using the wood stove for as much actual main heat or to 50% of there heat for there home. I just can't place what the bulk of the pellet stove owners use there pellet stoves for. With the prices going sky high per pellets and even more $$ and LP , El , oil are a lot or most of the pellet stove owners going from main heat of there stove down to ambient heat ?


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## Choppedliver (Sep 12, 2006)

Hey Roo
We Sell about 1000 tons of pellets a year and I would say 75% of my customers buy 2-3 tons a year and heat 75-100% of there house, 5% buy 3-5 tons and heat 100% of there house and maybe a shop or garage the other 20% are 1 ton or less and just "enjoy the heat"


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## HarryBack (Sep 12, 2006)

Choppedliver said:
			
		

> Hey Roo
> We Sell about 1000 tons of pellets a year and I would say 75% of my customers buy 2-3 tons a year and heat 75-100% of there house, 5% buy 3-5 tons and heat 100% of there house and maybe a shop or garage the other 20% are 1 ton or less and just "enjoy the heat"



We are on track to sell somewhere near 5-6000 tons of pellets this year and ChoppedLiver is pretty close to the mark here in MA as well. Id say about 85% of mine are 3-5 tons/year (with the pellets providing the bulk of their heat), 10% at 1-2 tons per year (the recreational user), and, oddly enough, 5% at 6 tons+/year (Im not sure whats going on there, Ive got one guy who ordered 20 tons.....doesnt take a genius to guess what hes doing).


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## Roospike (Sep 12, 2006)

HarryBack said:
			
		

> Choppedliver said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





			
				Choppedliver said:
			
		

> Hey Roo
> We Sell about 1000 tons of pellets a year and I would say 75% of my customers buy 2-3 tons a year and heat 75-100% of there house, 5% buy 3-5 tons and heat 100% of there house and maybe a shop or garage the other 20% are 1 ton or less and just "enjoy the heat"


 Thats great information guys . I've always wondered about it . I also wonder how that compares to the box stores if there sales are along the same lines or they get the fill in sales . 





> Ive got one guy who ordered 20 tons.....doesnt take a genius to guess what hes doing


 Yeah ...... Enough of these guys and the high prices and any shortage is not going to get any better just like the ones selling pellets on Ebay for $400. a ton. I wonder how much the "stocking up extra" of pellets is adding to the shortage.


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## MountainStoveGuy (Sep 12, 2006)

Choppedliver said:
			
		

> Hey Roo
> We Sell about 1000 tons of pellets a year and I would say 75% of my customers buy 2-3 tons a year and heat 75-100% of there house, 5% buy 3-5 tons and heat 100% of there house and maybe a shop or garage the other 20% are 1 ton or less and just "enjoy the heat"



I complety agree.

 What kind of pellets are you selling? and whats your current price? When i run out i will send some people your way. Do you keep pellets all year 'round?


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## TedNH (Sep 12, 2006)

Are pellets really selling out?
Thats not good.

Back in April when I had a chance to "lock" in the price of my propane for the year it was $2.80 per gallon.  I decided to roll the dice and buy a pellet stove and spend the money to button up my house a little better.  Im almost done with the buttoning and the pellet stove should be in this weekend.
Pellets to be delivered on the 21st.


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## MountainStoveGuy (Sep 12, 2006)

TedNH said:
			
		

> Are pellets really selling out?
> Thats not good.
> 
> Back in April when I had a chance to "lock" in the price of my propane for the year it was $2.80 per gallon.  I decided to roll the dice and buy a pellet stove and spend the money to button up my house a little better.  Im almost done with the buttoning and the pellet stove should be in this weekend.
> Pellets to be delivered on the 21st.



I think its a local problem, im having trouble getting them for a decent price, it seems the east coast and west coast are ok, mountain states might be a different story, hard to say because i am only one dealer, and i have three sources. It wouldnt hurt to buy your entire seasons of pellets now, and in the future, buy them in the summer for upcoming seasons.


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## TedNH (Sep 12, 2006)

I just checked ebay.  There are some people look to get 400$ a ton but none have sold.
If you look up the completed auctions you will find some folks got some decent deals.

1 ton for 202$

http://cgi.ebay.com/Premium-Wood-he...3QQihZ009QQcategoryZ20598QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

1.5 tons for 365$

http://cgi.ebay.com/Low-Ash-Premium...3QQihZ018QQcategoryZ41987QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


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## Choppedliver (Sep 12, 2006)

> I complety agree.
> 
> What kind of pellets are you selling? and whats your current price? When i run out i will send some people your way. Do you keep pellets all year ‘round?



We sell Rocky Mountain Premium pellets from Laramie WY. but we don't sell them to the general public you must have purchased a stove here to buy pellets here.
Link to list of Denver Colorado area pellet suppliers 
http://www.rockymountainstove.com/2006/08/news-on-wood-pellets.html


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## adam (Sep 12, 2006)

Woohoo!  Our local Harman dealer just dropped off our new stove and our first ton of pellets.
The hardest part was scrubbing the masonry fireplace out Sunday before the stove arrived.  

http://www.morsewards.com/images/harman_installed.JPG



			
				adam said:
			
		

> We ordered a Harman XXV, something we've been lusting after (does lust apply to pellet stoves??) since first seeing it in the spring.
> Our dealer's truck has room for a ton of pellets with the stove, so we avoid the $45/load delivery fee for the first ton.
> 
> Thanks, it's good to be here.  My wife and I are looking forward to fewer visits from the propane fairy this winter...
> ...


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## martel (Sep 12, 2006)

Adam,
that is beautiful! thanks for sharing a pic.


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## richg (Sep 12, 2006)

Looks like nuttiness is setting in....the 400.00 per ton pellets on ebay had been listed for 200.00....I wuz gonna bid but they pulled the listing, only to relist at double the price. No big loss, as Tractor Supply came through at 211.00 per ton. I'd be interested to see what pricing and availability is come January. Right now, there seems to be a mad dash of people who were unable to get pellets last year. If somehow there is ample supply come January, we may see prices take a dip as the long-expected new pellet mills come on line. Wait and see.


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## HarryBack (Sep 12, 2006)

Roospike said:
			
		

> HarryBack said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Roo- what I was alluding to was the 20 tons guy being one of the guys on Ebay! He buys 20 tons from me at $259/ton, turns around and sells them in 2 months for $400/ton, lets see.....$141 x 20 = $2820  not a bad return in 2-3 months time!


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## MountainStoveGuy (Sep 13, 2006)

hmmmm.. now there is a idea. I could make some money.....


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## smirnov3 (Sep 13, 2006)

If you're serious about selling on ebay, DON'T start the listing at $200, otherwise you will be paying eBay $$$ in fees.

Start it low ($10) and rely on market forces.


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## webbie (Sep 13, 2006)

I think I've got a better idea - we'll make one pound and 5 pound bags, use some marketing genius - and sell them for $1.00 for the one pound and $3.00 for the 5 pound. We can ship via UPS or post office. We can even send overnight. Heck, it's renewable and you can do your part! I say we give it a neat name like "STICK IT TO OPEC" Pellets.


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## BrotherBart (Sep 13, 2006)

Anton Smirnov said:
			
		

> If you're serious about selling on ebay, DON'T start the listing at $200, otherwise you will be paying eBay $$$ in fees.
> 
> Start it low ($10) and rely on market forces.



The maximum listing fee on auctions is $4.80. Not worth risking somebody grabbing them cheap to save $4.45.


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## BrotherBart (Sep 13, 2006)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> I think I've got a better idea - we'll make one pound and 5 pound bags, use some marketing genius - and sell them for $1.00 for the one pound and $3.00 for the 5 pound. We can ship via UPS or post office. We can even send overnight. Heck, it's renewable and you can do your part! I say we give it a neat name like "STICK IT TO OPEC" Pellets.



At these prices I am going to start in the morning whittling my cordwood into pellets.

"BroBart's Premium Hand Carved Hardwood Pellets"

Testimonials:

"I used just six bags of BroBart's Premium Hand Carved Pellets to heat my house, my garage and my pole barn all winter long here in Anchorage."


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## begreen (Sep 13, 2006)

adam said:
			
		

> Woohoo!  Our local Harman dealer just dropped off our new stove and our first ton of pellets.
> The hardest part was scrubbing the masonry fireplace out Sunday before the stove arrived.



nice photo adam. looks like it's straight out of the catalog. let us know how it works out for you.

-> this must be the longest thread on the forum. and the season's just started.


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## DonCT (Sep 13, 2006)

It's a "Hot" topic........ :cheese: 

Sorry, couldn't resist.


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## Roospike (Sep 13, 2006)

DonCT said:
			
		

> It's a "Hot" topic........ :cheese:
> 
> Sorry, couldn't resist.


BOOOOOOOO , Your FIRED ! LOL


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## PutnamJct (Sep 15, 2006)

Oil man sent me another lock in proposal........

$2.779 per gallon, prepay for the full season up front by October.


 :bug: 

Think they need to put the bong away..........


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## Roospike (Sep 15, 2006)

PutnamJct said:
			
		

> Oil man sent me another lock in proposal........
> 
> $2.779 per gallon, prepay for the full season up front by October.
> 
> ...


Hey, Thats an awesome price ! ............(for them)


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## begreen (Sep 15, 2006)

Sounds like they've been talking to our propane people. Same ballpark. Suburban Propane is offering an early buy of $2.80/gal and secured plan of $2.84. Over the counter is $2.99.

We told them to take a hike. Installing a heat pump next week and the new stove tomorrow. We'll keep propane for the cook top and that's it.


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## Roospike (Sep 16, 2006)

Local Wal-Mart Pellet prices. "Bio Plus Premium Hardwood pellets". $3.68 a 40 lbs bag. X 50 = $184.oo a ton .


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## MountainStoveGuy (Sep 16, 2006)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Sounds like they've been talking to our propane people. Same ballpark. Suburban Propane is offering an early buy of $2.80/gal and secured plan of $2.84. Over the counter is $2.99.
> 
> We told them to take a hike. Installing a heat pump next week and the new stove tomorrow. We'll keep propane for the cook top and that's it.



that will turn a frozen $5.00 pizza into a $15.00 masterpiece.


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## begreen (Sep 16, 2006)

yep. Though we almost always roll our own pizzas. Even got the pizza stone in  the stove.


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## vgrund (Sep 16, 2006)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Sounds like they've been talking to our propane people. Same ballpark. Suburban Propane is offering an early buy of $2.80/gal and secured plan of $2.84. Over the counter is $2.99.
> 
> We told them to take a hike. Installing a heat pump next week and the new stove tomorrow. We'll keep propane for the cook top and that's it.



BeGreen, if I may inquire, what is your delivered price per KWH for electricity?  

Victor


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## begreen (Sep 16, 2006)

About .07 for the first 600kwh,  and then about .087 after that. There are energy credits applied to the total which amounted to about $16 on the last bill.


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## vgrund (Sep 16, 2006)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> About .07 for the first 600kwh,  and then about .087 after that.



Wow.  That's about half the price of mine!


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## MountainStoveGuy (Sep 16, 2006)

Im lucky, im on time of day metering. its only .03 off peak, from 9pm to 7am m-f and weekends starting at 9pm friday night. My house is entirely electric with a wood stove. I have a pellet stove but its collecting dust in the garage.


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## vgrund (Sep 16, 2006)

MountainStoveGuy said:
			
		

> Im lucky, im on time of day metering. its only .03 off peak, from 9pm to 7am m-f and weekends starting at 9pm friday night. My house is entirely electric with a wood stove. I have a pellet stove but its collecting dust in the garage.



To get those prices I'd need a fission pile in my basement.


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## Homefire (Sep 16, 2006)

I live in central NY
Hydro from Niagara Falls
Nuke from 9 mile 

We still are paying .12 per kwh..to Rochester Gas and Electric
Makes you wonder why so much?
Now they are building wind mills on the Tug Hill but my price hasn't gone down.

can you say greed?


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## BrotherBart (Sep 16, 2006)

I can't figure out what my electric costs me. I am with a co-op and every since Virginia opened it up so that you can buy from other suppliers, but the co-op has to provide transmission wires, they have been giving credits to keep us from switching. Hottest months, profit return of around half the bill. Coldest months, profit return of around half the bill, which I get hosed on because I heat 100% with wood.

Somewhere they obviously have a vault full of my money! That they have been drawing interest on for a lot of years.


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## vgrund (Sep 17, 2006)

We have a cost recovery fee added on a KWH basis.  I forget the % but it is substantial.  It has something to do with a writeoff associated with the Seabrook nuclear power station (AKA the "stranded-cost recovery" line item on bills).


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## webbie (Sep 17, 2006)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> yep. Though we almost always roll our own pizzas. Even got the pizza stone in  the stove.



Yeah, but you don't have Luna Pizza (Northampton) 10 minutes from you.

Definitely at least a 9 out of a 10 for "foodie" pizza. All organic ingredients, not greasy at all, and you don't feel like you've done something wrong after eating one! Ah, the crust - it is a work of art in itself!

Beside the ingredients, it is the oven that makes the difference. They use, I'm told, a VERY hot oven - the pizza comes out really quick. Not cheap, but it is truly gourmet.


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## BrotherBart (Sep 17, 2006)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Beside the ingredients, it is the oven that makes the difference. They use, I'm told, a VERY hot oven - the pizza comes out really quick. Not cheap, but it is truly gourmet.



Gourmet pizza. Now that just has to be on a oxymoron list somewhere. I had a pizza in Paris once, but I was the only person in the joint.


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## webbie (Sep 17, 2006)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Gourmet pizza. Now that just has to be on a oxymoron list somewhere. I had a pizza in Paris once, but I was the only person in the joint.



Listen, Bro - my treat when you next find yourself coming up to New England.....

I have converted many a doubter to my religion (food) at this very location. Even those who normally are not impressed by "gourmet: food will find themselves saying "this is REALLY good".

It just is.....


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## begreen (Sep 17, 2006)

We had a few pizzas when we were last in France. They ranged from bien to fantastique. Though fast food doesn't realy fit the french psyche. They really believe you are what you eat and like to savor a meal. 

Craig, I know what you mean, a great pizza joint is in no way like Dominos. It's a wonderful experience. We had one in Seattle called Guidos. I don't know if it's still there, but it was heaven. The crust was to die for and the sauce, spicy. Our pizza is not too shabby, but Guidos was an art form. Hmmmm.


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## HarryBack (Sep 17, 2006)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> BeGreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



dang...cant actually believe Im writing something like this, but Craig is *ALMOST* correct....the Luna pizza is absolutely amazing, without a doubt! You wont likely find better in New England! BUT, if you are ever in Colorado, theres a little pizza shop in a little town in Clear Creek Canyon, called Beau-Jo's...its in Idaho Springs near the Argo gold mine, and it is absolutely the  *BEST*  pizza Ive ever had.....not a totally "politically-correct" pizza, you can get meat on it, like buffalo, and buffalo do taste good, by the way! Many different kinds of dough, sauces, multitudes of toppings! Truly an epicurean work of art! Any of you Colorado guys ever been there? Stovemanken?


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## MountainStoveGuy (Sep 17, 2006)

every time i go up I70, i hit beau-jo's. its one of my favriot pizza places, and they serve great local beers too. Good  call! my favriot style of pizza is new york style, there is a little shop in boulder called Abo's, and its my hands down favriot. Its thin, crispy, and greasy. My second favriot place in boulder is "Baked in Boulder" its a chicago style with Tons of fresh mozz, homemade sauce, and hommade crust that is just about the oppisit of Abo's. One pice of that pizza is about 3 pounds and its a killer on the stomach.


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## begreen (Sep 17, 2006)

My favorite in NY style too. That is one of the great things about NYC. One can get a slice from an over the counter shop and it is usually pretty darn good. I grew up in lower NY state and we had a really outstanding local pizzeria run by a couple Italian brothers. Never had a bad pizza from there. 

When we moved to Seattle in the mid-70's it was like a pizza wasteland. You couldn't find a good pizza to save your life. The worst were the new-age attempts with a whole wheat crust that was so heavy it sank straight to your feet. They were piled with so much crap that you might as well have been eating a country deep dish pie. That's when we started making our own. By the early-80's Seattle had fine pizza places and still does, but those early years were hard on the stomach.


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## seaken (Sep 17, 2006)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> My favorite in NY style too. That is one of the great things about NYC. One can get a slice from an over the counter shop and it is usually pretty darn good. I grew up in lower NY state and we had a really outstanding local pizzeria run by a couple Italian brothers. Never had a bad pizza from there.
> 
> When we moved to Seattle in the mid-70's it was like a pizza wasteland. You couldn't find a good pizza to save your life. The worst were the new-age attempts with a whole wheat crust that was so heavy it sank straight to your feet. They were piled with so much crap that you might as well have been eating a country deep dish pie. That's when we started making our own. By the early-80's Seattle had fine pizza places and still does, but those early years were hard on the stomach.



HaHa, I can relate. I grew up in Seattle in the 70's. The best pizza was at Shakey's, in West Seattle. When I moved to New York I discovered what pizza was supposed to taste like. And I love that you can grab it by the slice.

Sean


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## begreen (Sep 17, 2006)

Pizza at Shakeys! Yep,  you know exactly what we were going through. 

Funny that you moved back east when the trend was the opposite. I moved up to the Berkshires in NW CT, as soon as I could and loved the area. My brother still lives in your neck of the woods.  Many people don't realize what a beautiful countryside NY has once you go upstate.


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## seaken (Sep 17, 2006)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Pizza at Shakeys! Yep,  you know exactly what we were going through.
> 
> Funny that you moved back east when the trend was the opposite. I moved up to the Berkshires in NW CT, as soon as I could and loved the area. My brother still lives in your neck of the woods.  Many people don't realize what a beautiful countryside NY has once you go upstate.



Yeah, that's true. Most of the Seattlites I told about my move to NY thought I was going to the "Big Apple". There is so much more to New York outside of NYC. The neighboring Berkshires are great. Actually, I feel very comfortable around there, reminds me a lot of the Seattle flavor of life.

Sean


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## BrotherBart (Sep 17, 2006)

seaken said:
			
		

> BeGreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A few years ago we drove up to Niagra Falls via Western PA and NY in the summer. On the way back we were cruising between two finger lakes and I was admiring the scenery and commented that it was beautiful country and I believed I could enjoy living around there.

While I was talking my wife just silently pointed her finger at an equipment yard we were passing that was just off the road. In that yard was the largest collection of monster sized snow moving equipment I have ever seen in my life.

My foot started pressing a little harder on the acclerator and I kept going South.


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## begreen (Sep 18, 2006)

Downwind of the Great Lakes gets some prodigious snowfalls. Fortunately, they diminish with distance from the lakes.


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## hearthtools (Sep 18, 2006)

BOY IS THIS TOPIC OFF SUBJECT!!

My price for pellets are holding at $265 for Pine Fir mix from canada
My cost of shipping  is $108 per ton.

I know I know why cant I get pellets from a closer supplier.
THEY WONT RETURN MY CALLS>


Central California


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## moralleper (Sep 18, 2006)

I just picked up my second ton of 100% Doug fir pellets, for $149 a ton this weekend.


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## Homefire (Sep 18, 2006)

moralleper said:
			
		

> I just picked up my second ton of 100% Doug fir pellets, for $149 a ton this weekend.



Where are pellets 149 a ton?

Pizza from a 1000 degree oak fire oven that takes about 50 seconds to bake a thin crust with pepperoni and mushrooms.
Got it from a place Niagara Fall Canada call DeAgastino's (sic?) pure taste and wonderful.

The pizzas were bake among the coals, the pizza paddles were about 6 or 7 feet long.
Like I said best I ever tasted.

Anyone grilling puff balls this year. 
Had my first of the year this week. olive oil and a little garlic with Mrs. Dash for good measure.


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## moralleper (Sep 18, 2006)

Pellets in my area, SW Washington, range from $139 to $200 per ton.


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## smirnov3 (Sep 18, 2006)

homefire said:
			
		

> Anyone grilling puff balls this year.
> Had my first of the year this week. olive oil and a little garlic with Mrs. Dash for good measure.



Is that what you do with them?!?

I know they are supposed to be 'choice edibles', but they taste like unseasoned tofu to me, except with a nastier textrue.

I usually just grab some sulfer shelf & hen-of-the-woods, since I really don't have much time for mushrooming nowadays (that, and Rooted Oudimasella, since it grows in my front lawn)


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## PelletsToGo (Jul 16, 2008)

If your looking for Great home delivery service of a ton at a time or more in Northern Colo. call me or better yet e-mail me for qoutes!!
My Company name is PelletsToGo !! I'm brand New and am willing to give you all the best deal I can afford with still needing to make a livingas well! The biggest problem were going to run into this fall and winter is the price of hauling it I.E. Diesel fuel cost!! It is out raguoas as you all know! 
But please give me a call or e-mail me at 
PelletsToGo@msn.com
Ph. # (970) 663-7830
cell. (970) 690-9985
Thanks so much for reading my Speal here!
Sincerly Robert,
owner of PelletsToGo  
 ps I'll be selling the highest Premium grade pellets that are going to be manufactued here in Colorado> my web site is PelletsToGo.com  the name of the pellets are Rocky Mountain Pellets out of Walden Colorado!
they'll be avail to be delivered by me sometime around Labor day! Please give me a chance I'm here for the long run we need to do something about these rip off prices for energy !
Thanks again Sincerly from my Green Heart


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