# Another pole barn idea



## Badfish740 (Feb 3, 2014)

I came up with another idea for a pole barn because the last one I was thinking of building would have been too small.  This one will be 16 x 24, so not overly large, but probably the biggest I can accommodate on my .25 acre lot.  Here's the basic idea:

-6 x 6 x 12' poles sunk 48" deep 
-2 x 6 pressure treated girt board around the bottom
-2 x 12s bolted to the inside and outside of the tops of the 6 x 6s (is that overkill?)
-2 x 2 x 16 floor joists for the loft, 16" OC
-3/4" OSB subfloor up top
-Home built gambrel roof trusses made from 2 x 4 x 8s and OSB web plates on both sides spaced 24" OC
-Steel roofing and siding
-Sliding 8' wide door
-Compacted crusher run floor

I figure I can build it for about $5000 doing the work myself, the question is, is it a sound design?  I'm basing it off of a barn I saw built on another forum and am pretty much copying it exactly.  The guy was in Indiana so it definitely sees plenty of snow.  Here's a cross section of the framing:







The goal is as small a footprint as possible with as much storage as possible, hence the huge gambrel truss.  That's the part I'm wondering about the most.  Should I use 1 x 6 bracing instead of the OSB webbing?


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## johneh (Feb 3, 2014)

Badfish740 said:


> -2 x 2 x 16 floor joists for the loft, 16" OC



I'ed use something a little heaver or don't put any weight on them
They are not structurally sound for joists
Take 3 16 footers @ 16 in apart lay them across cinder blocks at 16 in put 2 sheets
of OSB now stand in the center you will quickly see what I mean


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## razerface (Feb 3, 2014)

around here,, at some of the lumber yards, I can sometimes buy trusses as cheap as I can build them. Carter lumber for instance


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## JustWood (Feb 3, 2014)

Wouldn't cost that much more to go 2 story.
Don't skimp on material sizing. You'll just end up rebuilding it!


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## Butcher (Feb 3, 2014)

I'm guessin you meant 2x 12's for your loft floor joists right? If so you might want to consider using 14' 6x6's for poles to get alittle bit more head room on the ground floor. It may not make that much difference now but if you ever want to get rid of the 8' slider (and some day you will) and put in an over head door it will. 2x12's for your eve headers might be over kill and even for the loft joists. At 16" OC a 2x10 will hold a lot of weight.


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## Badfish740 (Feb 3, 2014)

Butcher said:


> I'm guessin you meant 2x 12's for your loft floor joists right?



  Yeah...pretty sure the weight of the plywood would collapse the floor if I used 2 x *2* x 16s   I think max span for #2 Doug Fir 2 x 12s is 17'.  My span will only be 14' 10" between the inside eve headers.  Maybe I should look at using 2 x 10s instead to save a little $$$  I'll look into the 14' poles too-the big box stores don't have them but the local lumberyards might.


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## Butcher (Feb 3, 2014)

Also 1 thing about the sliding door is you aren't going to get an 8' opening when done. Unless you are going to use a 2 piece door in the middle of the gable end. I don't know any more since it's been awhile since I was in the trades but I would watch the adds at them Menards and such for a building package for the shed the size you want. I'm bettin you might get a whole shed dropped at your place cheaper than what you think.


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## Badfish740 (Feb 3, 2014)

Butcher said:


> Also 1 thing about the sliding door is you aren't going to get an 8' opening when done. Unless you are going to use a 2 piece door in the middle of the gable end. I don't know any more since it's been awhile since I was in the trades but I would watch the adds at them Menards and such for a building package for the shed the size you want. I'm bettin you might get a whole shed dropped at your place cheaper than what you think.



I'm in NJ-we don't have Menards here and I don't know of any places that offer kits.  It's worth checking out though...


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## greg13 (Feb 5, 2014)

In most areas you will need permits to build. Before a permit is issued they will go over your plans so if there is a problem they will tell you.I would check with the codes officer before hand and run your plans by him first.It is far easier to work with him from the start.

Greg


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## Michael Golden (Feb 5, 2014)

Why so deep? And why 6 x 6 posts? Just seems overkill, but hey it's your money.


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## bmblank (Feb 5, 2014)

48"deep to get past the frost line. I think 42" is code here by me.


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## semipro (Feb 5, 2014)

Many good points so far.  A few more suggestions:

I believe the joint between posts and 2x12s will be stronger (and cheaper) if you notch the posts as is recommended for decks. It will be cheaper in that bolts can be shorter or may not be needed at all.
If you build your trusses I'd consider using plywood rather than OSB.  I've seen OSB delaminate and fall apart in tension too many times. 

I'd also 2nd the idea of getting pre-made trusses priced out.  I found I could buy mine delivered at a very reasonable cost.
Consider installing blocking between the floor joists.  It will increase the overall strength of the floor


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## Michael Golden (Feb 6, 2014)

I have never personally seen frost deeper than 14 inches or so around me. I think that is just crazy, but code is code. My whole house sits on 2 x 10's so they ought to work fine for your small shed.


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## Badfish740 (Feb 6, 2014)

greg13 said:


> In most areas you will need permits to build. Before a permit is issued they will go over your plans so if there is a problem they will tell you.I would check with the codes officer before hand and run your plans by him first.It is far easier to work with him from the start.



When I get to that point I certainly will.  Our code official is a pretty good guy-it was a smooth process when I got the permits approved for my wood furnace install.  Just shopping around ideas now.  



Michael Golden said:


> Why so deep? And why 6 x 6 posts? Just seems overkill, but hey it's your money.



The diversity of responses I'm getting is interesting.  I posted this same thing on another forum where a lot of posters have built much larger barns than mine.  I floated the idea of using 4 x 4s and was quickly told that they would twist and buckle.  I was also told that my footings weren't deep enough and that my 2 x 4 trusses would buckle under snow.  I think I'm starting realize that I need to end up somewhere in the middle of all of the recommendations I've gotten.  BTW, frost depth for the northern region of NJ is 36", so I'll still use 12' poles, but maybe not bury them as deep and end up with a higher roof.


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## semipro (Feb 6, 2014)

Badfish740 said:


> The diversity of responses I'm getting is interesting. I posted this same thing on another forum where a lot of posters have built much larger barns than mine. I floated the idea of using 4 x 4s and was quickly told that they would twist and buckle. I was also told that my footings weren't deep enough and that my 2 x 4 trusses would buckle under snow. I think I'm starting realize that I need to end up somewhere in the middle of all of the recommendations I've gotten. BTW, frost depth for the northern region of NJ is 36", so I'll still use 12' poles, but maybe not bury them as deep and end up with a higher roof.


Since you don't have any diagonal structural braces in your design to prevent racking the depth of the poles is important for stability.


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## ironpony (Feb 6, 2014)

O.K. I will chime in here. All of the above responses may be good advice for THIER area of the country. Now what you need to do is go to a lumber yard and talk to the outside sales guy. He probably has dealt with this many times and can usually get you stamped engineered prints of exactly what you need to do in your area. This will make your life simple and the inspector will like you for it. You will also get a bill of materials and a cost estimate for them. Use all the information here to ask questions and make suggestions for what you wan to accomplish.
Guessing or doing it wrong gets very expensive very quickly.


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## lazeedan (Feb 6, 2014)

x2. That is what I did. I went to a local family owned lumber yard. I had never built a pole barn. They walked me thru everything. They were very helpful. I now go there for all my lumber needs.


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## Michael Golden (Feb 6, 2014)

I have to agree with ironpony! I built a pole barn style garage 24 x 32, and used 4 x 6 on the corners and 4 x 4 every 8 ft or however it worked out with windows and doors. I haven't had any twists, but we did have the whole garage framed and sheeted in 3 days. Definitely a fast and easy way to build a garage, and was a great learning experience before starting on the house. Good luck with the build, nothing wrong with going overkill in certain situation.


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## Badfish740 (Feb 11, 2014)

I did a little more research (basically some creative Googling) and found this:

http://pbis.okstate.edu/images/documents/6410_high.pdf

I've run across these old USDA plans before but this was the first time I had found a design that fit my needs.  The drawing contains dimensions to build a truss or braced rafter system spanning anywhere from 20' all the way up to 34'.  The 20' truss is built from  four 2 x 6 x 8s, two 2 x 4 x 8s, fourteen gusset plates of 1/2" plywood, and a lot of nails.  Glue is not mentioned, but I will definitely be gluing mine with a high strength construction adhesive in addition to nailing.  Once I build a jig they should go together fast. Here's a section view of the new barn plan incorporating the braced rafter design:






The question now is whether or not this design requires the rafters to be tied together via a floor joist.  The building is going to be 24' long and I'm thinking that I really only want the loft to cover half of it.  So basically half the rafters will be tied together with 2 x 12 x 20 floor joists and half of them won't be.  Any thoughts?


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## semipro (Feb 11, 2014)

You could use cables to tie the walls/rafters together where there are no floor joists.


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## rwhite (Feb 12, 2014)

I used this system when I built a 30 x 40 barn. Kinda pricey but I was able to build all the trusses and do most of the raising myself. I can't say enough about the quality of the system. All trussed and uprights are 6x6 which you can buy or build up with three 2x6's with 1/2" osb sandwiched in between. Can't say enough about the quality or ease. of use. With metal siding and roof, Full concrete slab, 4' footings for posts and electrical it cost me about 10K. I would guess that with a 16 x24 and crushed floor you could come in considerably cheaper.


http://www.socketsystems.com/


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## Badfish740 (Feb 12, 2014)

rwhite said:


> I used this system when I built a 30 x 40 barn. Kinda pricey but I was able to build all the trusses and do most of the raising myself. I can't say enough about the quality of the system. All trussed and uprights are 6x6 which you can buy or build up with three 2x6's with 1/2" osb sandwiched in between. Can't say enough about the quality or ease. of use. With metal siding and roof, Full concrete slab, 4' footings for posts and electrical it cost me about 10K. I would guess that with a 16 x24 and crushed floor you could come in considerably cheaper.



Wow-that's impressive!  Definitely going to look into these as well-thanks for the link.


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## Michael Golden (Feb 12, 2014)

What do you plan on putting up stairs? I think you could save some dough with 2 x 10s, that is standard in home construction.


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## Badfish740 (Feb 12, 2014)

Michael Golden said:


> What do you plan on putting up stairs? I think you could save some dough with 2 x 10s, that is standard in home construction.



I ran the span calculator again and found the following:  At 20lbs psf live load and 10lbs psf dead load, which is considered an "attic" or ceiling joist spec, a #2 Doug Fir 2 x 10 spaced 16" OC will span 19' 7" which just makes it.  That said, 2 x 10 x 20s run about $25 each at the local lumberyard, whereas 2 x 12 x 20s are about $28 each.  Now that I'm only doing a loft over half of the barn (12' x 20' will be plenty of space), I only need 10 joists, so going with 2 x 10s over 2 x 12s will only save me $30.  I get what you're saying though.  The plan for the loft right now is just the crap that is clogging up the basement and closets-out of season clothes, seasonal decorations, baby stuff and toys that kid number one has outgrown that we'll need for kids two through ???    The really heavy stuff (tools and equipment) will stay on the ground floor.


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## rwhite (Feb 13, 2014)

Badfish740 said:


> Wow-that's impressive!  Definitely going to look into these as well-thanks for the link.


 
As I recall I used 4 of the kits so I could have 8' spacing. I may have purchased a few more 2x6's but I think that 1 bunk pretty much covered my needs. For the gables and posts I built them out of 8' 2x6s and just made sure to stagger all the seams. I nailed and glued all as well (gluing may have been overkill). I spaced all uprights so they were 8' from the outer edge to center of the inner ones. As I recall I never had to cut anything other than to stagger seams. Just grab and nail. The price has gone up a bit I think I paid $1k for 4 of the kits but it was wll worth it and I got a discount buying an entire bunk of 2x6's. Plus no treated lumber is needed because there us no ground contact anywhere. Overall I think the cost savings of buying lumber in bulk, not having to frame walls and the time saved more than made up for the cost of the sockets.


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## ironpony (Feb 13, 2014)

Badfish740 said:


> I ran the span calculator again and found the following:  At 20lbs psf live load and 10lbs psf dead load, which is considered an "attic" or ceiling joist spec, a #2 Doug Fir 2 x 10 spaced 16" OC will span 19' 7" which just makes it.  That said, 2 x 10 x 20s run about $25 each at the local lumberyard, whereas 2 x 12 x 20s are about $28 each.  Now that I'm only doing a loft over half of the barn (12' x 20' will be plenty of space), I only need 10 joists, so going with 2 x 10s over 2 x 12s will only save me $30.  I get what you're saying though.  The plan for the loft right now is just the crap that is clogging up the basement and closets-out of season clothes, seasonal decorations, baby stuff and toys that kid number one has outgrown that we'll need for kids two through ???    The really heavy stuff (tools and equipment) will stay on the ground floor.


 

attic or ceiling joist is not rated for storage. 10 lb psf is way to low, for a storage load 2x12 syp is only about 17 foot. better run those numbers again.
back to my suggestion above^^^^^^, have a qualified person run the loads and supply you with stamped drawings. You will save a lot of money in the long run and the building will stay standing.


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## Badfish740 (Feb 13, 2014)

ironpony said:


> attic or ceiling joist is not rated for storage. 10 lb psf is way to low, for a storage load 2x12 syp is only about 17 foot. better run those numbers again.  back to my suggestion above^^^^^^, have a qualified person run the loads and supply you with stamped drawings. You will save a lot of money in the long run and the building will stay standing.



Or I may just say screw it and throw a post and a girder underneath it and call it a day.  This is all just for speculation anyway.  I live in NJ so the code inspector will have the final say on what I do.  I'm just playing with Google Sketchup because I'm snowed in and there's nothing else to do...


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## Michael Golden (Feb 13, 2014)

Badfish740 said:


> I ran the span calculator again and found the following:  At 20lbs psf live load and 10lbs psf dead load, which is considered an "attic" or ceiling joist spec, a #2 Doug Fir 2 x 10 spaced 16" OC will span 19' 7" which just makes it.  That said, 2 x 10 x 20s run about $25 each at the local lumberyard, whereas 2 x 12 x 20s are about $28 each.  Now that I'm only doing a loft over half of the barn (12' x 20' will be plenty of space), I only need 10 joists, so going with 2 x 10s over 2 x 12s will only save me $30.  I get what you're saying though.  The plan for the loft right now is just the crap that is clogging up the basement and closets-out of season clothes, seasonal decorations, baby stuff and toys that kid number one has outgrown that we'll need for kids two through ???    The really heavy stuff (tools and equipment) will stay on the ground floor.



Makes since and somewhere I missed the 20' span. Good luck with the build!


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## Michael Golden (Feb 13, 2014)

Those socket systems are pretty neat! I wonder if there is really any saving to using them though? The YouTube video of one guy putting up a pole barn is neat, but the guy had lots of little tricks to help him out.


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## Badfish740 (Feb 14, 2014)

Ok-I think I got it.  If I downsize a bit and use a similar design (USDA plans) I can build an 18' wide gambrel barn.  This way I only need to span 16' - 11".  I'll build two lofts, 8' wide, one at either end of the building, using 2 x 12s, 12" OC.  I tripled checked it this time , and #2 Doug Fir 2 x 12s spaced 12" OC will span over 19', so with some blocking the lofts should be solid as a rock.  FWIW, 2 x 10s fall just short at 16' - 5".  I'll lose about 48 SF of the footprint, but I'll end up with nearly 300 SF of loft space, so I think it works out.


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## G-rott (Feb 17, 2014)

I didn't see an answer to your question about the requirement to tie the "rafters" together, Yes the tails need to be tied together for that system to work and not spread the walls.


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## semipro (Feb 17, 2014)

G-rott said:


> I didn't see an answer to your question about the requirement to tie the "rafters" together, Yes the tails need to be tied together for that system to work and not spread the walls.


I suggested cables in post #20.


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