# Poll: Outside Wood Heater (not a boiler, but...), Green or Obscene?



## Mo Heat (Jan 6, 2007)

I doubt this thing is UL, Warnock Hershey, or EPA certified, but those things could be addressed by a company of sufficient means. There may be return air issues, [and chimney stability issues,] but assuming all issues mentioned were addressed, does this seems like a good alternative to an outdoor wood boiler? 

Check it out. You can skip the first minute of the video to get right to the device part.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3005961029383795932&pr=goog-sl

This company is likely run out of someone's garage. There are some interesting photos in the slide show. Here's their web site:

http://outsidewoodheater.com/


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## Harley (Jan 6, 2007)

Not too many choices in the poll, but probably good in concept (like you said - maybe a few issues to work on).  I definately wouldn't want one attached to my house, and if my neighbor had one, I'd like to be sure there was a good fire stop between the two houses.  Been selling them for 18 years??? (I think that's what he said in the video).  Wally doesn't look that old, and I think he may have been the chief engineer on that design... Block is only 6, and I don't think I'd let him engineer the heating system for the house (but I'm sure he does have his own ideas).


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## twistedgrain (Jan 22, 2007)

I have one of these heaters, and I almost didn't post about it because of the bashing that people have been doing on here about them, but I love it.  This is admittedly a very simple invention, but it is UL approved.  There is a return air system built into it, that works very well.  I have a two story house and this thing keeps me nice and warm with no cold spots anywhere.  It will burn for twelve hours and still be easily rekindled after that time.  I obviously don't care for the single wall chimney that is on it now, but I am going to be looking into getting insulated chimney down the road.  We just had some snow here and I couldn't get back to my wood supply and had to revert to the gas furnace and it just doesn't heat the upstairs as well as the wood burner.  
     I'm ready for the flames, but this does work.

     Dan


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## Mo Heat (Jan 23, 2007)

twistedgrain said:
			
		

> I have one of these heaters, and I almost didn't post about it because of the bashing that people have been doing on here about them, but I love it.



Hi Dan, Thanks for stepping up. 

My poll got a very limited response, and the small vote was strongly against the device, but that seems typical with most new ideas and from people sitting on the sidelines with little or no direct experience. At least the three of us that bothered to supply some accompanying verbiage are somewhat positive on the device's potential. 

It is arguably more desirable than an outdoor wood boiler with its on/off cycling and horrendous smoke.

However, potential shortcomings of any outdoor stove that occur to me are:

- The fact that it is outside in the cold. With inside stoves, all the heat except for the exhaust goes inside the house and the chimney is kept warmer and thus works better with less creosote.

- You've got to go outdoors into the cold to stoke an outdoor stove.

Why did you decide on the outdoor stove instead of an indoor model? 
How long have you had it? Is it holding up well?
Did you install it yourself? 
Care to share the total cost as best you can guesstimate?


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## twistedgrain (Jan 23, 2007)

No problem. and nice to meet you.  

     1. The unit is completely insulated, and when it snows the snow will sit on top of the unit and not melt.  (except of course around the chimney)  All of that heat goes into the house.  I agree completely about the cold chimney which is why I want to work a way into putting a factory built S/S insulated chimney on mine when I figure out the logistics and the money.  

2. It is true that I have to go outside in the cold and load it up, but the mess all stays outside too.  (except for the mud on my boots this year)  

3.  My decision for this unit was mainly because my house doesn't have room for a wood stove in the living area.  I could have possibly put a furnace in my unfinished partially dirt floor basement, but that wouldn't have been much better than going outside.  I would have had to have the chimney lined if it is even big enough to get a s/s liner down.  I have a 90 year old house that used to belong to my grandparents, and I know they had a coal furnace back in the day. (my ductwork is still scorched from it) so I'm sure it would be possible but $$$$.

4.  This is my second year and no complaints.  It is simple enough if there were problems I think I could handle fixing them.  The guy that I bought it from is very helpful with all of the questions I had, and even talked to me on the phone before I ordered so that we both thought that this would work in my situation.

5. I did the install myself with a buddy.  The only hard part was cutting the hole in the side of the house for the heat duct to come in.  All of the heat goes into my living room and up the stairs which are in the center of  the house off of that room.  For the cold air supply I blocked off a return air from the far downstairs bedroom and hooked it up in there so that it pulls the hot air into the rest of the house.  I was able to get into my basement with the 8" return line easily by opening a swinging window and making a small plywood box with a hole in it to fill the void.

6.  The cost of the unit was $1295 (they went up a $100 this year)  and I had to buy the ductwork and i made an angle iron frame for it to sit in so total cost was probably under $1500.  The best part about the single wall chimney pipe is that I start with a fresh stack every year, and I burn small hot fires to keep the creosote down to a minimum.  As long as I can use quality dry wood once the fire is established I don't have any visible smoke, just a heat signature.  

I will be the first to say that this unit is not cutting edge technology, but it is a great bang for the buck with great customer support.  

If I had my choice I would love to have a tarm boiler with a large storage capacity, but that is a long time for a ROI even if your wood is free.  I am not saying that some day when I build a house I won't go that route, but as of now I am happy with my effective heating that I have.


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## Mo Heat (Jan 23, 2007)

Dan, Thanks for the detailed info. Interestingly, your situation is exactly what I had envisioned as a good fit for that stove.

I have some friends in a 100+ yr old, block and cement farm house that's had a couple wood frame rooms added on. It's impossible to heat that place effectively with propane ($$) or a wood stove (poor heat distribution). So there is usually only one room in the house that is comfortable. I could see your outdoor stove serving that house well, helping distribute heat through, at least, several rooms, including the main living area and one bedroom. It would also eliminate the horrendously dangerous chimney install they have through a window using single wall pipe that is below safe clearances, had a big horizontal run, and accumulates more creosote than any other I've seen.

I doubt they could afford this stove since they bought a conventional wood burner just a few years back to replace their old Monkey Wards, no brand Franklin, barn burner, but I think I'll introduce them to it anyway. Food for future thought.

Thanks again for the update.


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## DiscoInferno (Jan 23, 2007)

I don't see that it is all that different in concept from my Ultima ZC, which sits in an uninsulated chase that is essentially outside the house.  My heat and return are currently the upper and lower louvres, although I will eventually hook up the central air kit and run hot air into my existing ductwork.  The outside unit is certainly bigger and presumably not EPA certified, and you don't get to watch the fire, but the idea is the same.


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## coalkirk (Jan 24, 2007)

twistedgrain said:
			
		

> I have one of these heaters, and I almost didn't post about it because of the bashing that people have been doing on here about them, but I love it.  This is admittedly a very simple invention, but it is UL approved.  There is a return air system built into it, that works very well.  I have a two story house and this thing keeps me nice and warm with no cold spots anywhere.  It will burn for twelve hours and still be easily rekindled after that time.  I obviously don't care for the single wall chimney that is on it now, but I am going to be looking into getting insulated chimney down the road.  We just had some snow here and I couldn't get back to my wood supply and had to revert to the gas furnace and it just doesn't heat the upstairs as well as the wood burner.
> I'm ready for the flames, but this does work.
> 
> Dan


One minor point but UL doesn't "approve" anything. They test and if it meets the required standard, they "list" it. 
The unsulated pipe from the unit to the house doesn't seem like a good idea.


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## twistedgrain (Jan 25, 2007)

There is no uninsulated pipe from the unit to the house except for the return air.  That doesn't get hot, it goes the other way.  The heat comes in through one vent in one room and gets pulled through the house by the return air system.  You can put in as many return airs as you want to make it move where you want it to.


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## Corie (Jan 25, 2007)

I wish this was a more progressive idea.  This invention could hardly even be called an incremental step towards inproving woodheat.  It suits an extremely small niche market, is not even close to clean burning and pioneers zero new technology.

This unit could have been built 20 years ago and still not have been technologically advanced.  Nothing but a 55 gallon steel drum inside an insulated box.  Whether it heats your house or not, its still a joke.  

And from a safety standpoint, any chance there are fusible link dampers, or a smoke sensor to shut down that blower incase that firebox burns through?


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## Hogwildz (Jan 25, 2007)

I kinda like it. I seen them before. I might git me one of those for my damn too huge garage.


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## Mo Heat (Jan 25, 2007)

Corie said:
			
		

> It suits an extremely small niche market, is not even close to clean burning and pioneers zero new technology.
> 
> Whether it heats your house or not, its still a joke.



Dang Corie, that seems a bit harsh. And your two statements (above) seem to contradict one another. At least with regard to Dan's "niche".

Here's how I'm thinking in a metaphore. If a simple organism that might ordinarily be considered inferior (e.g. a worm), somehow survives a catastrophic environmental event (e.g. a fire) because it fills a certain niche (e.g. lives underground), it is generally considered to now be the superior organism for that situation compared with organisms previously deemed superior, but that got burned up and extincted in the fire. The worm is then arguably, more "advanced" for that niche.

Seems like the same thing for this wood heater in Dan's situation.

What would you have suggested Dan install instead for his situation if he has no room inside for a more conventional, or advanced design, wood stove, but he still wanted wood heat?


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## Corie (Jan 25, 2007)

Mo, I think comparing organisms and natural disasters to wood furnaces is a poor metaphor.  

Here's how I feel.

Assume a person really really wants a car.  They have a bicycle that gets them around fine where they live, but they just WANT a car.  But they can't really afford much and they can't even afford a safe unit.  So they purchase something unsafe and with outdated technology.  You can fill in whatever outdated, unsafe car you'd like.  Point is, what have they really gained?  Temporary ease of transportation, at the cost of what? Their personal safety?

Does it really make sense then, to have bought the car in the first place?


Dan _wanted_ wood heat so bad, that he is hypothetically willing to sacrifice the air quality around his house, as well as the safety of his family?  UL listed or not, that furnace is a joke.  I can't find one mention of any safety provisions included in the unit, anywere.  I don't see the return air being filtered in any way? I see a 55 gallon steel drum, with air blowing around it.

I don't want to argue or get any feathers ruffled about this whole thing, but in my personal opinion, I wouldn't even want something like that blowing hot air into a shop or garage.


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## Mo Heat (Jan 25, 2007)

Corie said:
			
		

> You can fill in whatever outdated, unsafe car you'd like.  Point is, what have they really gained?  Temporary ease of transportation, at the cost of what? Their personal safety?
> 
> Does it really make sense then, to have bought the car in the first place?



Maybe I relate to Dan because I bought a 1985 VW Rabbit 10 years ago for $1,000 to save money (only has seat belts--no air bags, no air curtains, no anti-lock brakes, no traction control, not much safety built into it by today's standards). So should I sell the VW because it's less safe than a 21st century BMW 5 series or a Lincoln Continental. Should I also sell my 20th century motorcycle that's certainly unsafe by any comparison to any auto, and completely non-essential?


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## Mo Heat (Jan 25, 2007)

...oh, and Corie, what *would* you suggest instead, for Dan's situation?


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## wg_bent (Jan 25, 2007)

How is this really different from installing something like an Englander add on wood furnace?  If you put the Englander (EPA approved) installed in an insulated shed with insulated air ducts pushing the air into the home, it seems like I'd personally trust the England stove works product.    Now, that said, I have no idea if installing an Englander that way is allowed or possible, but what I'm saying is the product IS EPA certified.


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## Corie (Jan 25, 2007)

It seems to me that DAN had a heating system prior to installing this system.  My suggestion is to continue using what he had.  



Don't know why it seems your taking my attacks on the system so personally.  Look at it and the engineering that went into it.  Does that really seem safe to you?  If it does, great, buy one.  All I'm saying is that I wouldn't be caught dead using one.  do you realize that if that 55 gallon firebox burned through, the blower would be circulating the smoke and embers from the furnace directly into your home.  You're ok with that design?


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## Mo Heat (Jan 25, 2007)

I'm really not taking anything personally. I'm just asking questions and trying to understand your specific complaints about Dan's stove.

I didn't see anything about a 55 gallon drum on the web site. Are you sure that's how it's built? If so, I'd agree it's not a good thing. But Dan says it's UL listed. To me that means the designer(s) must have thought about safety issues like CO infiltration. Maybe there's a separate sleeve in there to isolate things, maybe not, I don't really know, but UL listings are usually aimed directly at safety issues.

It just seems unfair to dismiss Dan's heater as a joke because it doesn't stand up against modern designs. If it's inherently unsafe, not just less safe than newer designs, then that's a more critical concern. But I wouldn't characterize that as a joke, either.


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## Corie (Jan 25, 2007)

Gotta run to class, but here's a picture of the 55 gal drum firebox. You can see it through he "AIR JACKET CONNECTION HOLE"


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## Mo Heat (Jan 25, 2007)

I wonder if that's a user replacable part?  :gulp:


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## Roospike (Jan 26, 2007)

Sure as chit , looks like a basic 55 gallon drum to me.  Whatever opinion i had before had just now dropped quite a few points after seeing the posted picture.


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## Harley (Jan 26, 2007)

Mo Heat said:
			
		

> I wonder if that's a user replacable part?  :gulp:



yes - and it is listed as one of the spare parts on the order form... and made of 16 gauge steel... so it should be fine for 5 years, right?

That's why I made the comment about my dog being able to do a better engineering job than his dog  %-P

EDIT... that was probably a little harsh, but the point being... that particular setup is probably not real "safe"  - Yup, probably a lot of them or very similar are out there and haven't burnt the house down and have heated the house very well - the bad feeling in the gut to me is from the marketing of it, regardless of its listing.


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## Mo Heat (Jan 26, 2007)

One thing that might put this stove back into the "safe" category would be if there was a plate steel firebox "inside" the 55 gallon drum. That way, the drum would be an extra envelope of safety around an already safe fire box. If the 55 gallon drum wasn't exposed to the caustic combustion byproducts, it would seem to be a pretty descent design. Not cutting edge, but safe enough from burn-through of the thin 55 gallon drum.

Dan, Doesn't your firebox have some fire brick in it? If so, is there also a plate steel firebox between the brick and the 55 gallon drum?


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## Corie (Jan 26, 2007)

Directly from manufacturers FAQ



> How long does the firebox last?
> It depends on how well you take of it!.... If your a person that in the fall pushes the mower over to the fence row.... you will get 2 or 3 years out of a drum.  If your the guy that cleans the mower up and drains the gas etc........I see them lasting anywhere from 6-9 years. Not bad at all.






> What happens when I need to replace the firebox?
> Well if your close enough to me or the factory you can bring it to us and we can rebuild it and you can pick it up for the season. If your too far away you can purchase a rebuild kit and do it yourself. No it is not super expensive.


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## Mo Heat (Jan 26, 2007)

Thanks Corie.


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## Corie (Jan 26, 2007)

Also, the furnace is not UL listed, but tested to UL standards by a lab called R.F. Geiserr Associates.


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 26, 2007)

Me, I'd go for the stainless steel drum option.

The cinder block base kind of puts me off.

Seriously, many's the garage or workshop with an old barrel stove keeping things warm. I give the designer credit at least for keeping the thing outside, though Corie's point about blowing the contents of the firebox into your heating ductwork in the event of a breach is something to think about.


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## restorer (Jan 30, 2007)

Mo Heat said:
			
		

> Corie said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Think we should give Dan a chance. He's already said he burns a hot short fire. Tell us how it burns and how much "smoke " do you get? My inside space is very small, but I could see building a nice surround for something like this, if it was a clean burner. 

So Dan, give us the technical stuff.....especially, construction of the fire box.


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## farmerscotty (Mar 2, 2007)

Hello all....I am Scott Bradley a distributor of the Lil house heater. Just read thru the forum here. 

I cannot understand how some of you missed the points........Yes it is a round 16 gauge drum that is 55 gallon. Yes it is simple, but it is also cheap and works well. Yes I have been selling these units for counting this year 19 years. Yes it is approved by insurance companies! No it is not built in someone garage......it is manufactured. If it was homemade it would never be able to have insurance. 

It is not the super duper best stove made, however for heating up to 2400 sq ft it does a good job. No body questioned the 30 day money back guarantee either......in 19 years I have given one person there money back. I just am not asked to give people there money back... it works!

I do however take issue with anyone that would not take me as honest and creditable. If you have read over the website you would be able to tell that 1) I am honest and making money is NOT the most important thing in life 2) I believe it to be safe or why would I have one in my own home with a family? Money as we all know is not the most important thing in life.........God, life in general are much more important.

I don't claim this heater is for everyone......Many people like wood boilers and personally if I would have had 4000 dollars 20 years ago I would have bought a Hardy.

Now with that being said, let talk some about the firebox. The firebox is round and will not burn out since it is round. The heat goes around it evenly so there is no hot spots. If you put firebrick in it water will rust out the bottom. If you get a rusted out spot in your drum after some years of use you will know.....by either sticking the shovel thru the back cleaning out the ashes (in the back bottom) or before the blower kicks on you will have smoke in the heat duct. Once the blower kicks on the box is pressurized and if anything it will make the fire burn hotter and faster. It would require a major major problem on the part of an owner to not notice a rusted out spot on a 55 gallon drum.

It doesn't smoke as much as a boiler since the chimney is higher off the ground (national fire code 3 ft above the eve where the chimney goes up on the house, 2 ft from anything combustible). 

It is not meant for everyone, and is not claimed to be. I have even sold one to a state fire marshal in Missouri. 

It is able to be afforded by many people and saves people alot of money.  It is made with the idea that you can get the parts you need to set it up easily.  Ever bought something that you HAVE to go to the manufacturer for a 5 dollar item and it costs 200!  Not with this.

I think that pretty well sums this up for me........I thought the website explained it all pretty clear....unfortunately some people just don't read the entire site closely. Don't forget the testimonials.......just so  you know I did NOT make them up......have them on file!



By the way Wally was only 3 years old in that photo.   He died last April.


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## Corie (Mar 2, 2007)

Although I think most of your post is directed at me, I'm not even going to touch this topic.  Lets just let sleeping dogs lie.


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## Roospike (Mar 2, 2007)

55 gallon drum , again ............no comment.


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## keyman512us (Mar 2, 2007)

You know just when you thought you have seen it all...
Green or obsene? Depends on your perspective. I could see this thing in the hills of West Virginia or the hills of Royalston Mass...Any way you slice it I ain't gonna knock anybody for how they heat their home, the car they drive or the house they live in. Maybe if more people seen things this way this country would be a lot better off. I doubt you will ever see one of these in someones' backyard in Concord MA though.
Think it looks "tacky"? So does a "window air conditioner" when you think about it...but how many people have them?
I'll agree with Corie to let sleeping dogs' lie.


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## farmerscotty (Mar 2, 2007)

The reply is not directed at any one person........I felt I could give my side of the story on the topic.  That is all I was doing......other than the remark someone made about the video where I said I had sold them for 18 years which I have.  I did take offense to that, I am honest. Everyone has there own opinions and that is what makes this a great country to live in.  I really believe not everyone that posted on this has read over the website good, or some of the things ask would have already been answered.

Honesty is VERY important to me........and I always stand up when I am right.

No cat calling here, just facts was what I was wanting to get across.  I hate forums where it becomes a school ground fight!  Not going to happen here.

Enjoyed reading the thread.  Have a good weekend.

Corie, if I was going to direct it at you I would have called you by name.  I would even have asked you if you wanted to talk to me direct.  I wasn't after anyone person.  Just seems that if one person dislikes something others just jump on and go with it.  Kinda like cattle.......if one will go thru the gate most likely they will all follow.


Scott Bradley
417-581-7755


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## ChrisN (Mar 2, 2007)

Scott, I admire your entrepreunership ( badly mangled SP I know)  I see your product as an effective alternative to the traditional inside wood burning device.  I'm sure there are many many homes that for whatever reason simply don't have a suitable interior place for a wood burner.  This product seems to fill that niche.  I'm a simple wood burner, no technical knowedge of stove design.  That said just what is so awful about this being a basic 55 gallon drum?  does that necessarily make it unsafe?  I guess the worse case scenario is the firebox burns through and the business end of the stove emits gases into the house.  Bad I agree, but if the house is properly equipped with smoke / CO2 detectors, emergency isolation of the stove should be effective.  Additonally I know I'm intimately familiar with the firebox on my stove as I have my eyeballs in it several times a day when reloading.  I think if the OWB develops an integrity issue, the operator should see signs before catastrophic failure occurs if he is performing due diligence.

Scott, don't take critiques of your product too personally.  The people on this forum are a pretty savvy bunch, and I think are pointing out potential weaknesses of your product.  You could take their comments onboard and apply them to possibly improving your product.


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## jjbaer (Mar 2, 2007)

farmerscotty said:
			
		

> The reply is not directed at any one person........I felt I could give my side of the story on the topic.  That is all I was doing......other than the remark someone made about the video where I said I had sold them for 18 years which I have.  I did take offense to that, I am honest. Everyone has there own opinions and that is what makes this a great country to live in.  I really believe not everyone that posted on this has read over the website good, or some of the things ask would have already been answered.
> 
> Honesty is VERY important to me........and I always stand up when I am right.
> 
> ...



Hi,


I just read through all the posts.  Since you've been selling these for about 20 years, what's your actual experience on how long the 55 gallon drums last before customers ask you to replace them or they buy replacement drums for do-it-yourself installs?


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## farmerscotty (Mar 2, 2007)

Many people get 6,7,8,9 or even 10 years out of a drum.  Had one come back last year that was 15 years old original drum.  It depends alot on  how you take care of it and keep the water away from the ashes since that makes lye and eats up the drum.

Check the website and read the FAQ page.....will help a bunch.

only thing I take personally is when people think I am not telling the truth.........I guess farmers are like that.....  I just wanted to respond on here not upset on my end at all......I sold approx 200 of these this season.

Scott


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## Harley (Mar 3, 2007)

farmerscotty said:
			
		

> other than the remark someone made about the video where I said I had sold them for 18 years which I have.  I did take offense to that, I am honest.



Scott:
Since this was the comment that did offend you and I was the one who made it - I should clarify it.  I was not questioning the fact that you had been selling them for 18 years.... I was more surprised that this unit has been around that long and is still around.  Quite frankly I did read pretty much everything on the website, including the testimonials.  I was not calling any of that into question.

We all know that even the newest, safest, best designed, code compliant installed wood heaters can cause disaterous results when used improperly.  Even the worst made, poorly set up stoves can go a lifetime without causing any problems, if they are really monitered well.  As I said before, I would not really be happy about having a neighbor of mine having one of those units heating their house, because I'd have no way of knowing whether or not they saw the shovel poking through a bad spot in the barrel and was ready to burn their house down.  I believe the overall concept is probably good, but (in my opinion only) I think the design/materials are bad.

My other comments about dogs and engineering were out of line, and I do appologize for that, and I am sorry for your loss of Wally.


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## farmerscotty (Mar 5, 2007)

Thanks for the kind words.  I think alot of times when we write (including myself)  we don't convey what we mean to say.  If we were talking in person it would be a differnt meaning.  I have written emails and had people to convey it completely different than what I meant.   I just got wound up when I feel someone thinks I am not honest......I see you were not meaning that I appreciate you stepping up.  If we were near I would sure shake your hand and have you come over to visit.  So many people in life are not honest and that bothers me.  My dad taught me to stand up in the right and bow out in the wrong.  That is why I replied to start with.  I hope you have a good day and I don't have any bad feelings toward you, and really never did.

Whew!

So we got that finished! YEA

Any questions anyone has that reads the thread......feel free to contact me about the heater......I have my cell phone number on the website.  Encourage questions.

It is not for everyone and I know that.  But, for many people it is something that works well and is affordable.  

Have a great day!

Scott Bradley


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