# My pellet stove sucks.....



## glocke12 (Dec 26, 2012)

Stove is a Napolean NPI40 insert and it does not keep the house warm enough at all, not even the main room it is in...

Basically, if it is about freezing it gets the main room to about 60-62 degrees....If it is below freezing (which it is now), it keeps the main room 55-58 degrees....

The stove was proffessionally installed and is insulated well, house is insulated, windows are double pane and are less than ten years old...

Stove is kept clean, every couple of days I shut it down and give it a good cleaning...

Any suggestions?  Do I just have a crappy stove or is it possible I am doing something wrong?


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## jtakeman (Dec 26, 2012)

Depends on how much sqft your trying to heat. The NPS40 is a decent "lil" stove but can be a bit pellet picky. Seeing its only 45K BTUs at its best(with a good hot pellet). I don't think you can expect to heat more than 1500 sqft comfortably. Even that might be a stretch. How big an area are you trying to heat with it?

One thing to try is a hotter pellet. When your struggling with a stove thats on the small side, You need to use the rocket fuel pellets to get the max from the stove you possibly can. What pellets are you burning now?


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## newf lover (Dec 26, 2012)

There is no way that thing is working right if the room it's in only warms up to 60-62.  Is this new and under warranty? I would call the dealer and have someone come out. Hopefully some Napolean owners will chime in. That's not normal for any pellet stove.


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## St_Earl (Dec 26, 2012)

newf lover said:


> There is no way that thing is working right if the room it's in only warms up to 60-62. Is this new and under warranty? I would call the dealer and have someone come out. Hopefully some Napolean owners will chime in. That's not normal for any pellet stove.


 
yeah. something isn't right.


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## kinsmanstoves (Dec 26, 2012)

how much pellets are you burning in a day?

Eric


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## Boondoggie (Dec 26, 2012)

I have the same stove, and it kept my 1800sqft home around 70 last night with outside temps around 20.

What kind of pellets?  Is your convection fan blowing well?  What does your fire look like? Flames coming out of the burn pot, or just small 1" flames in the bottom of the burn pot?  I find I get the most heat (with the feed knob at 4) and tuning the air damper until the flames are just coming out of the burn pot by 2" or so...  too much air and it's just a little fire that doesn't reach the top of the burn pot, with not as much heat.

It is not a very big stove, and is undersized for my house, but my goal isn't to make the house 80*, just to make it so the furnace doesn't run.


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## Mike D (Dec 26, 2012)

Do you leave it running all day or do you shut it off if you are not going to be home?


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## glocke12 (Dec 26, 2012)

Pellets I am burning at this moment are "premium pellets" distributed by agri recycle in bolivar MO..I pick them up at my local tractor supply.

The total house square footage is ~1500-1600 ss ft...

I am probably going through one bag of pellets every 24 hours...I keep the auger setting at about 3-4 when I am home, than turn it down 2 when i leave the house or go to bed..

The damper or whatever you call it (sliding lever at bottom right that controls air flow to burn pot), I keep all the way to the right.

Also, Ive noticed that I usually don't get a complete burn...meaning the pellets don't turn to ash, more often than not I end up what looks like charcoal..

Stove is about 4 years old, and has always functioned like this....I bought it new.


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## glocke12 (Dec 26, 2012)

Mike D said:


> Do you leave it running all day or do you shut it off if you are not going to be home?


 
i leave it running all day...i just turn the auger setting to about 2 when I leave.


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## Mike D (Dec 26, 2012)

Ok, I don't know the settings on your stove...but it sounds like there may be some kind of product defect. You paid good money for the stove and the install I would be all over the dealer to help you out.


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## kinsmanstoves (Dec 26, 2012)

Clean the venting and baffle in the stove.  Try a different brand of pellets.  At a bag a day you are only turning approx 13,666 input BTUs and that equals a little over 10,000 output BTUs.  

Eric


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## Chain (Dec 26, 2012)

Not being too familiar with your stove, when you say you have the damper pushed all the way to the right, does that mean you have it open as far as possible or closed as much as possible?  Depending upon the answer, maybe you're not getting an efficient burn due to too much or too little air.  I would look at your owners manual or call your dealer and ask about this.  You should certainly be able to heat the room the stove's in much higher than 60 - 62 degrees....


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## jtakeman (Dec 26, 2012)

Sounds more like its closed all tha way. Pellets should burn completely or there isn't enough air to the stove. IE slow lazy burn.


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## Chain (Dec 26, 2012)

jtakeman said:


> Sounds more like its closed all tha way. Pellets should burn completely or there isn't enough air to the stove. IE slow lazy burn.


 
That's what I suspect but can't be sure given I have no idea how the damper on his stove works.  I'm with you in that unburned pellets would suggest he hasn't got enough air coming into the burn pot.


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## Bob Sorjanen (Dec 26, 2012)

does it have an OAK hooked up?


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## glocke12 (Dec 26, 2012)

Chain said:


> That's what I suspect but can't be sure given I have no idea how the damper on his stove works. I'm with you in that unburned pellets would suggest he hasn't got enough air coming into the burn pot.


 

definteily open all the way..slide to the right the flames burn "faster", to the left they look like they are burning slower.


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## glocke12 (Dec 26, 2012)

Bob Sorjanen said:


> does it have an OAK hooked up?


 
dont know what that is..


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## DexterDay (Dec 26, 2012)

Turn feed rate up and open the air. 

low air = incomplete combustion 

To.get heat you need complete combustion (more air) and you need to burn pellets (more than the 1.5-1.75 lbs an hr your burning now) 

A bag a day isn't gonna heat a house when its this cold out. Crank it up and get a good active and lively flame (watch for pellets dancing in the bottom of the pot) Sparks should be flying from pot and flame should he moving quickly.


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## Bob Sorjanen (Dec 26, 2012)

glocke12 said:


> dont know what that is..


Outside Air Kit


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## webbie (Dec 26, 2012)

Eric hinted at the LACK of pellets being burned.

To that I will add the heat losses from a unit being in a (outdoor?) backed masonry fireplace.

it would probably be close to say that only 3-4,000 BTU of heat per pound of pellets is reaching the room. At 2 pounds or less of pellets per hour (a bag each 24 hours), that means only a little more heath than an electric plug in oil-filled or similar heater - which sounds exactly like what you are getting.

The key now is to be able to turn it up and burn 4+ pounds per hour. Since the heat loss of the fireplace is already made up for in the first pound or two you are burning, you may realize a bit more from a doubling of your pellet feed rate.

If, though, your stove is unable to burn double the amount of pellets easily, then it may be a draft or other related issue. Is your chimney properly lined?


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## DexterDay (Dec 26, 2012)

If the air is all the way open,  then check gaskets using the dollar bill test. 

Also as Eric suggests, clean the venting and all ash traps and paths? 

When was the last time the vent was cleaned? Do you know how the exhaust travels through the stove? When was the combustion blower pulled last?


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## glocke12 (Dec 26, 2012)

DexterDay said:


> If the air is all the way open, then check gaskets using the dollar bill test.
> 
> Also as Eric suggests, clean the venting and all ash traps and paths?
> 
> When was the last time the vent was cleaned? Do you know how the exhaust travels through the stove? When was the combustion blower pulled last?


 
whats the dollar bill test?

I dont think I have an OAK.

stove was last serviced at the end of last season..they did a complete cleaning than.

I dont know how the exhaust travels through the stove, but I am assuming it is hooked up as per the manual here...

http://www.allseasonsheatingcooling.org/Inserts/pellet/NPI40/NPS40.pdf

As for the combustion blower, I dont know when it was pulled last...Im not sure if that is part of the cleaning that the chimney guy does or not..

as for losing heat through the back of the fireplace, should I put insulation of some type between that and the insert the next time it is pulled out for service?

also, someone in a previous post mentioned that I should buy hotter burning pellets....any suggestions as to a brand for those?  I usually just get whatever my local TSC has in stock, which seems to be different each trip.


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## hossthehermit (Dec 26, 2012)

glocke12 said:


> Stove is about 4 years old, and has always functioned like this....I bought it new.


 
And you're complaining, NOW ? Sorry, but, WHY after 4 years..............


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## DexterDay (Dec 26, 2012)

Having it professionally cleaned doesnt mean they cleaned your flue, nor the ash traps within the stove. 

Knowing how the air enters the stove (inlet on the back) then goes through the pot, then from there, a channel, or series of channels (passages ) that the exhaust takes before getting.to the blower. 


I would find out if the liner is clean #1 (vent) 
Then I myself would look in the manual and take the panels of the inside firebox and clean all hidden passages and ash traps
Then, I would check to see if there is a block off plate installed (can you see up the chimney? Or is there a plate to block your heat from rising up the chimney? And/or letting cold air down?) 
Dollar bill test, is taking a dollar and opening the door, placing dollar across the gasket surface, closing door, and try to remove dollar? Does it pull out easily? Is there resistance?  

You have an air.flow problem if the pellets are not burning completely. It can be an air leak or a plug within the stove (passages.i.spoke of) or the vent, or a combination of all of the above. Leaky gasket, plugged trap/passage, dirty vent, plugged termination cap (top of vent on roof) 

All these things need checked and verified to be clean and free of obstruction, in order to troubleshoot. Otherwise its merely speculation that it a crappy stove.


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## Woody1911a1 (Dec 26, 2012)

you say it was professionally installed . did you change the damper setting after it was installed ?    or did they not set it properly using a magnehelic gauge then ?  fully open is not properly set .   

here's the one i have   http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-DWYER-M...789?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19d795b01d       costs but a few bags of wasted pellets  to know instead of guessing .


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## glocke12 (Dec 26, 2012)

hossthehermit said:


> And you're complaining, NOW ? Sorry, but, WHY after 4 years..............


 


i just recently discovered this site for one thing...

for another i didnt realize how poorly it was performing until i visited someone with a free standing stove that pumped out way more heat.

and lastly, up till this year I just supplemented with my oil heat by keeping the themrostat set at 62...that worked when I could afford oil...this year i cant afford to get the tank filled.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 26, 2012)

whats the dollar bill test?

That is where you light the stove with real money they burn better after they taste good stuff .... what's that?  You mean the Bear hasn't a clue?

OK, ya got me.

With the stove off and cold, you place a dollar bill sized piece of paper between the stove and the door gasket, close the door and try to remove the dollar bill sized piece of paper.

You repeat this at two separated locations on all sides of the door.

The dollar bill sized piece of paper should present resistance to you pulling it out at all locations.

If a single spot fails to present resistance check for any possible door adjustment capability (read the fine manual) and adjust (if possible) the door then repeat the test.   If you cannot make any adjustments or after having made adjustments the test still fails at any point around the door, replace the gasket.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 26, 2012)

"I dont think I have an OAK."


Is an OAK an Outside Air Kit or is it a tree?

If you are wondering where some of your heat is I can tell you it is going up the flue because you are sucking the air from inside your house (hey didn't you just heat some of that) and dumping it out. If you don't know if you have one, then the chances are extremely high you don't have one. Frequently one has to argue with the sales droid at the stove place to have an OAK installed, even though a lot of stove makers recommend them.

The old, tired, and stupid excuse of oh you have plenty of air in the house for the stove is frequently incorrect and never really a good thing anyway but I'll let that ride for now.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 26, 2012)

Well I told you about one way the heat is being removed from your house I guess I should tell you of another possible exit paths.

If the installer didn't properly block off and insulate the block off plate in the fireplace chimney just above the insert a lot of room air can go up the old fireplace flue from the room.

Also an improper damper setting can allow a lot of heat to go up the flue because the hot exhaust gases are not kept in the heat exchanger long enough to transfer a large fraction of the stoves heat to the convection side of the heat exchanger.


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## Northwoodneil (Dec 26, 2012)

As for the 'lil' stove post I agree 45000 btu is not big stove but that is 45000 constant btu's.  A 100,000 btu oil burner runs about half the time so isn't that kind of a push? I heat about 1700sf (a 1980 log cabin with newer windows) and my stove keeps the basement at 80 and the upstairs at 74. I don't know anything about your style stove but somethings wrong IMO.


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## humpin iron (Dec 26, 2012)

4 year old install, crappy pellets, no idea what anyone is talking about as far as how to care and feed a pellet stove.......maybe this just wasent the right choice for you.


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## DexterDay (Dec 26, 2012)

humpin iron said:


> 4 year old install, crappy pellets, no idea what anyone is talking about as far as how to care and feed a pellet stove.......maybe this just wasent the right choice for you.



Well said. I read briefly through the manual and found 2 ash traps (one on each.side of the firebox) and it also reads to do a i-annual cleaning (or 2 tons) to clean the ash traps and clean Combustion blower (yes, remove it). 

The once a year cleaning obviously isn't enough. And not knowing what these "Pro's" actually did when they installed it and do when they clean it is killing your stove.  Knowing how the stove operates and what to clean is quite a big deal with pellet stoves. Some stoves can go an incredibly pooong time without normal cleaning and maintenance. But some need attention every few days. I think that Saves$ cleans his every 3 days using Good pellets. His hates a certain brand of pellet and will back up in the pot? I hope he sees this? Its always good to put the stove name in the thread title to attract members who have that model. 

Forum member Save$  has a NPs40 and its been working great since 08 I believe? Although his is freestanding and has an OAK hooked up. Sake principles apply to keeping clean though.


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## newf lover (Dec 26, 2012)

If it hasn't worked well since you got it, I would say it has to do with the installation and not it being dirty. I think it would be worth it to have someone who knew what they were doing come take a look at the install. Even with crappy pellets and a 45,000 BTU stove, with the decent insulation you have, the room should be warmer than 60 degrees. I don't know where you are, but if you post an area, maybe someone has a suggestion for a person to work on it. If all pellet stoves operated like yours is operating, no one would buy them. Hope you get it figured out!


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## Boondoggie (Dec 26, 2012)

if you have the damper all the way open, you're running too much air... I have the same stove an with the damper all the way open I'm just incinerating pellets without making a lot of heat.

Push the damper to the left a quarter inch. See how it runs for an hour. If the flame isn't "lazy", push it another quarter inch. repeat until you get a lazy flame, and then back off to the last setting that was good. I find my NPI40 seems to run hottest with the flame just reaching the bottom of the pellet chute.

Also my stove, for the most part, is always on 4.   If the house gets too warm I'll knock it down to 3...


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 26, 2012)

Northwoodneil said:


> As for the 'lil' stove post I agree 45000 btu is not big stove but that is 45000 constant btu's. A 100,000 btu oil burner runs about half the time so isn't that kind of a push? I heat about 1700sf (a 1980 log cabin with newer windows) and my stove keeps the basement at 80 and the upstairs at 74. I don't know anything about your style stove but somethings wrong IMO.


 
Input BTUs and if the stove is incorrectly installed, maintained, or adjusted, the likely output is less than half of that.  Which is fine if your house doesn't have poor insulation, tons of air leaks, and bad windows, etc...


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## jtakeman (Dec 26, 2012)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Input BTUs and if the stove is incorrectly installed, maintained, or adjusted, the likely output is less than half of that. Which is fine if your house doesn't have poor insulation, tons of air leaks, and bad windows, etc...


 
45K BTU is the rated input. Actual output is probably just 75 to 80% of that on a good day(33.7K to 36K). I won't even get into what a crappy pellet could do to the output.


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## DexterDay (Dec 26, 2012)

glocke12 said:


> The damper or whatever you call it (sliding lever at bottom right that controls air flow to burn pot), I keep all the way to the right.
> 
> Also, Ive noticed that I usually don't get a complete burn...meaning the pellets don't turn to ash, more often than not I end up what looks like charcoal....



An incomplete burn??  

My buddies stove did this (Baby Countryside) 



Boondoggie said:


> if you have the damper all the way open, you're running too much air... I have the same stove an with the damper all the way open I'm just incinerating pellets without making a lot of heat.
> 
> Push the damper to the left a quarter inch. See how it runs for an hour. If the flame isn't "lazy", push it another quarter inch. repeat until you get a lazy flame, and then back off to the last setting that was good. I find my NPI40 seems to run hottest with the flame just reaching the bottom of the pellet chute.
> 
> Also my stove, for the most part, is always on 4.   If the house gets too warm I'll knock it down to 3...



I would think with Black unburnt pellets that he needs more air? 

Which if the damper is open? Can only be obtained by cleaning the Passages and vent that the "Pro" cleaned? 

In 4 yrs, have they ever slid the stove out? The combustion blower should be removed at least yearly?


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 26, 2012)

The stove needs a full and proper cleaning followed by properly adjusting the damper.

After that if you have to open the damper up more to get a good fire it is time to clean the stove again.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 26, 2012)

jtakeman said:


> 45K BTU is the rated input. Actual output is probably just 75 to 80% of that on a good day(33.7K to 36K). I won't even get into what a crappy pellet could do to the output.


 
Yep, that too, if nothing else is getting in the way.


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## Boondoggie (Dec 26, 2012)

DexterDay said:


> Which if the damper is open? Can only be obtained by cleaning the Passages and vent that the "Pro" cleaned?
> 
> In 4 yrs, have they ever slid the stove out? The combustion blower should be removed at least yearly?


 
He said he had the damper lever all the way to the right, which is all the way open on the NPI40.  I get a very "blowtorch" little burn in that position on mine, and not a lot of heat.


You're right, the manual does say to remove the combustion blower once a year to clean (I didn't find much in there but I do it anyway)... the OP sounded like his was just installed though...


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## DexterDay (Dec 26, 2012)

Boondoggie said:


> He said he had the damper lever all the way to the right, which is all the way open on the NPI40.  I get a very "blowtorch" little burn in that position on mine, and not a lot of heat...



Right. But a blow torch flame burns the pellets completely.

Have you ever had just a pot full of pellets that looked black? Prob not. 

A pot full of black pellets indicates Low Air Flow..... 

Does he need to close the damper? Yes. But does the stove need Cleaned so that it can get the proper air flow? Absolutely. 

His stove with damper Wide Open, is prob the equivalent of yours 20% open. (80% closed). Or a lazy flame. 

The venting needs cleaned, termination cap needs checked, combustion blower needs removed, gaskets ALL need checked, and all ash traps need cleaned. 

A pellet stove is a simple air pump with a feed system. Quite easy to some. Rocket science to others. 

This stove needs to breathe. Before the damper is even thought about. 



SmokeyTheBear said:


> The stove needs a full and proper cleaning followed by properly adjusting the damper.
> 
> After that if you have to open the damper up more to get a good fire it is time to clean the stove again.



X100


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## save$ (Dec 26, 2012)

I have the free standing model. I have to tell you I am heating a two story home, about 2100 sq. ft. My furnace kicks on when the outside temp is in the teens or lower, but my oil use is limited to about 150 gallons yearly and that includes the oil for the separate oil fired hot water heater. I have had poorly burned pellets twice. Once was when I hadn't latched one of the two latches to the ash drawer. The other time was when there was too much ash in the venting. When I did the leaf vac trick, that brought new life back to my stove. My daughter has the incert unit. They also clean with the leaf vac. So does my brother. His home is even larger than mine.
As most everything mentioned here relates to draft, I have to say that is right on. I would also like to ask if you had heated your home with another heating system. Was that home then heated comfortably and with a reasonable amount of fuel?
My home was built in 1975 and had electric heating. Cost a fortune. When we had the home resided 6 years ago, we were told the home was never properly sealed. They sealed all the doors and windows, then put on a draft barrier and external insulation. I think that has a lot to do with why we can heat so well with this unit. Tightly wrapped home really need OAK for the stove to burn efficiently.
Cleaning. I shut it down and vac it out every 3 days. I take a paint brush and clean brush all available inside surfaces. Takes less than 5 minutes. Keep the shop vac running when brushing to keep the dust from drifting. After evey ton, use the leaf vac. Then annually clean the blowers etc.


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## Countryboymo (Dec 26, 2012)

I have a 38k stove and it heats a 1800sqft basement with 2" insulation board on 2 walls and nothing on the floor as of yet and it can get the basement area to 75 and it isn't finished at all yet.  That stove will do MUCH better when it is running on all cylinders.


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## becasunshine (Dec 27, 2012)

We have the free-standing Napoleon NPS40 as well, installed in Sept 2008. We clean our stove religiously- at least every couple of days, sometimes every day, depending on the weather. Like Save$ says, it takes five minutes.

We are heating a 1420 sq ft, 1950's brick and block bungalow, single level, hardwood floors without carpeting (although we add area rugs in the winter if it gets really cold, we keep them cleaned and rolled up in the attic for that scenario) no wall insulation to speak of but we added two types of attic insulation and it made a HUGE difference, and we do have replacement windows with cell shades and thermal curtain panels. The room in which the stove resides easily stays at 74'F, sometimes warmer. The other end of the house stays comfortable at about 68'F. This is with outside air temps anywhere from the 50's down into the lower 20s. Our gas furnace rarely turns on when the pellet stove is running. The furnace kicks on very occasionally when outside temps dip into the teens overnight and don't rise above freezing during the day. Our last bout of those temps was not last winter (which was incredibly mild here) but the winter before last. I can't give you an honest evaluation of the stove's performance that winter, because it was stacked against some pretty tough odds: we didn't have sufficient insulation in the attic and we'd not yet bought the area rugs that we use seasonally. We added the attic insulation and the area rugs in late February/early March, and yeah, they definitely made a difference, but winter was almost over here by that point.

Right this red hot minute it's 40'F outside. Yesterday was cloudy, blustery and rainy all day, so we received no thermal mass warming of the brick and block exterior from sunshine. (We have a southern/southwestern exposure, so that does make a difference.) The pellet stove has been burning for almost 48 hours straight with no assistance at all from the gas furnace or from the sun. It's 74.5'F in the room with the stove, and 68'F in the rest of the house. We consider this to be comfortable.

We burn about a bag a day as well. Our Napoleon manual recommends a feed setting of 4, citing feed setting 4 as the most efficient setting. They do not recommend burning the unit on low or high. That's pretty much a direct quote from the manual- so keeping the feed higher than 4 is not recommended.

We burn our stove at feed 4- or we turn it off for a while, if the house is getting too warm. We keep our damper set at 3, or about mid-way opened.

We recently had our first experience with a batch of bad pellets and yeah, those pellets fouled up our stove in record time. Our meticulous regular cleaning didn't mitigate the effects of the bad pellets, neither did a "big cleaning" where we pulled the combustion motor and vacuumed out both ends of the vent/exhaust pipe as well as removing the exhaust port covers and vacuuming those out. We had to do our modified version of the leaf blower trick (we used a Shop Vac) where we sucked all of the soot and ash out of the nooks and crannies to get our stove back to normal. Our biggest symptom of a problem was that our normally clean burning, happy stove started burning lazy and dirty, and our regular cleaning didn't help. Our burn pot filled with ash, clinkers and unburned pellets within 24 hours of the last cleaning.

SO- if your burn pot overfloweth with clinkers, ash and unburned pellets, you too may be having dirty/lazy burn syndrome- which could be caused by air leaking through a gasket that's supposed to be air tight, or an improper installation, or a blockage or partial blockage somewhere along your exhaust path. Blowing the soot from dirty burning pellets out of our exhaust path cleared up our problem, along with switching pellets.

I know nothing about insert installations, especially nothing about insert installations in a masonry fireplace.

I hope that a snapshot of our experience with the free standing Napoleon model helps as a control.

P.S. We have an Outside Air Kit, an "OAK," as well.  Our stove dealer installed our stove and they use OAK's on every installation.  I believe that it does help to pull combustion air directly from outside via a "closed" system rather than to pull combustion air from the house, thus pulling cold air from outside into the house via every little gap.


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## jtakeman (Dec 27, 2012)

letsblaze said:


> Not a single person on this site has a clue


 
And you do? So spill the beans then!

I'm not single either, Me better half has the brains. I'm just here to the dirty work!


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## newf lover (Dec 27, 2012)

Doesn't matter, I think some comments have driven  glocke12 away! We will never know. I still say that it appears from his comments that it never worked right, so I'm still thinking some major install issue or something's actually wrong with the stove itself. However, I'd be surprised if we heard back from him.


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## SXIPro (Dec 27, 2012)

We were all newbs at one point or another. And though we tout these things as simple, there really are tons of variables involved. I often wonder how many of the 'experts' here have their stoves running, and their homes set up at the absolute best conditions for the most efficiency and heat..  I'm betting less than 50% do.


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## will711 (Dec 27, 2012)

newf lover said:


> Doesn't matter, I think some comments have driven glocke12 away!


 
I was thinking the same thing. You ask for help then you never hear back, plenty of folks here , wanting to help solve problems. And yes from time to time you will get your nuggets busted it's all in fun, not meant to be mean, that chit don't happen here Webbie & the Mods don't stand for that.


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## save$ (Dec 27, 2012)

glocke12 said:


> definteily open all the way..slide to the right the flames burn "faster", to the left they look like they are burning slower.


pulling it out gives more draft to burn the pellets, I usually have mine all half way or better. That way, I get complete combutiion of the pellets and very little accumulation of ash in the burn pot.


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## SXIPro (Dec 27, 2012)

Somewhere in this thread a question was asked in regards to a masonry fireplace. I can't find it, probably because I am loaded up on pain meds. Anyhow....my insert is in a 50 year old brick fireplace. Would it help if I were to glue some 1" foam board to all the walls of the firebox?


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## Eatonpcat (Dec 27, 2012)

Funny Stuff...The OP probably ripped the stove out and threw it through the window and you guys are still beating him down!  I can see him now with the stove held over his head pointed toward the window...Clean my a$$ Bear, JT, Dex and the rest of you Aholes!!  Ahhh, exactly the reason I love me some Hearth.com!


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## will711 (Dec 27, 2012)

Eatonpcat said:


> Funny Stuff...The OP probably ripped the stove out and threw it through the window and you guys are still beating him down! I can see him now with the stove held over his head pointed toward the window...Clean my a$$ Bear, JT, Dex and the rest of you Aholes!! Ahhh, exactly the reason I love me some Hearth.com!


 
Kind a like Michael Douglas in "Falling Down"  I'm NOT gonna take it any more


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 27, 2012)

SXIPro said:


> Somewhere in this thread a question was asked in regards to a masonry fireplace. I can't find it, probably because I am loaded up on pain meds. Anyhow....my insert is in a 50 year old brick fireplace. Would it help if I were to glue some 1" foam board to all the walls of the firebox?


 
Don't even suggest foam anywhere near the insert or in the flue.


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## letsblaze (Dec 27, 2012)

jtakeman said:


> And you do? So spill the beans then!
> 
> I'm not single either, Me better half has the brains. I'm just here to the dirty work!


Sarcasm meter broke.


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## glocke12 (Dec 28, 2012)

will711 said:


> I was thinking the same thing. You ask for help then you never hear back, plenty of folks here , wanting to help solve problems. And yes from time to time you will get your nuggets busted it's all in fun, not meant to be mean, that chit don't happen here Webbie & the Mods don't stand for that.


 
nope...im still here...have other duties in life to attend to also...I cant play on the internet all the time.

as for the some of the comments by other members, I am pretty thick skinned and my feeling on that is that if you have nothing better to do than come one here and act like an asshat and have nothing constructive to add to the discussion you are just better off not posting at all..

As for proper cleaning, as I mentioned before, the stove and chimney was serviced at the end of the last heating season I have confidence in the people that come out...they are a reputable company, and I used them for some other things in a previous house I owned...

I tried the dollar bill trick...it slides right out no matter where in the door it is placed..guess I will need to replace the gasket.

feed rate...Ive been playing around with the feed rate and the damper wide open...basically, anything above 3-4 and the pellets seem like they are feeding too rapidly..I end up with black pellets, very little ash and an overfilled ashpan at which point the stove just shuts off..

Also discovered that having the blower fan on high probably isn't the best idea..Ive been operating it maxed out..When I turn it down a little I found that air that blows out is hotter.

I'll play around with the damper the next couple of days and see how that effects things..


ETA:  Thanks for all the advice..


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## will711 (Dec 28, 2012)

glocke12 said:


> nope...im still here...have other duties in life to attend to also...I cant play on the internet all the time.


 
Glad that you are back. Get that door gasket replaced that should help. As far as the fan on high you're probably right maxed out heat exchanger not getting as hot as it could just my theory
.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 28, 2012)

glocke12 said:


> Snip ....
> As for proper cleaning, as I mentioned before, the stove and chimney was serviced at the end of the last heating season I have confidence in the people that come out...they are a reputable company, and I used them for some other things in a previous house I owned...
> 
> feed rate...Ive been playing around with the feed rate and the damper wide open...basically, anything above 3-4 and the pellets seem like they are feeding too rapidly..I end up with black pellets, very little ash and an overfilled ashpan at which point the stove just shuts off..
> ...


 
There is a very good reason that with the fan maxed out that the temperature of the air exiting the stove is lower, it is called the volume of air being moved.

Air temperature exiting that stove is not by itself a measure of the heat being produced.

If you are getting build up and you are running with that damper wide open you have an air flow issue, the number one cause is ash in the works if after replacing your gasket you still have the same thing happening I'd seriously consider cleaning the stove.

Now is your chimney lined all of the way to the top with 3" or 4" vent or is it being dumped into the chimney just above the block off plate?

If it is not a full pellet stove vent to the top of the flue, then if the flue area is bigger than 36 square inches you'll have quite a bit of back pressure (air flow restriction, this is also called an improper installation).


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## Bob Sorjanen (Dec 28, 2012)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> There is a very good reason that with the fan maxed out that the temperature of the air exiting the stove is lower, it is called the volume of air being moved.
> 
> Air temperature exiting that stove is not by itself a measure of the heat being produced.
> 
> ...


listen to Smokey The Bear on this I have seen this before


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## jlupi (Dec 28, 2012)

Northwoodneil said:


> As for the 'lil' stove post I agree 45000 btu is not big stove but that is 45000 constant btu's. A 100,000 btu oil burner runs about half the time so isn't that kind of a push?


 

a properly sized oil burner should run continually on the coldest days


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 28, 2012)

jlupi said:


> a properly sized oil burner should run continually on the coldest days


 
Actually there should be enough excess capability to handle a bit more than record cold, but otherwise I'd agree.

Design heat loss x2 usually covers it quite well.  In the case of oil/gas burners one must also factor in any domestic hot water needs.  This frequently results in a lot of excess capacity.  IIRC correctly my oil eater is about 75KBtu as a result.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 28, 2012)

Bob Sorjanen said:


> listen to Smokey The Bear on this I have seen this before


 
Don't listen to me I'm one of those that don't have a clue, remember.

Now if the OP would like to stop some of his heat from being absorbed by the chimney and fireplace, I'd suggest some nice non flammable insulation be used above the block off plate and around the fireplace opening behind and on the sides being careful not to block the air intake of the stove or the air intake for the convection blower.

Another thing to look into is making certain that the damper is actually connected to the control lever or whatever and can move freely in its guides.


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## movemaine (Dec 28, 2012)

My parents have a Napoleon in the house they are renting - I believe it's the same stove. I purchased Oakies for them and MWP Softies, but the stove doesn't seem to put out much heat. The house does suffer from quite a bit of heat loss (being ancient), however the air coming out of the stove often doesn't feel hot/warm - almost lukewarm, at best.


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## Outerlimits (Dec 28, 2012)

my stove doesn't suck, but it sure does blow.


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## ducker (Dec 28, 2012)

I would think that most stove would be able to burn through more than 1 bag of pellets in a 24 hour period.  I know on the coldest days, to get the house warm and comfortable, I have to crank up my Harman P38 up quite a bit, and can go through about 2 bags of pellets.  Again perhaps it's just this model that suggest you don't push the unit that hard/far.


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## becasunshine (Dec 28, 2012)

Glocke, I'm going to post a series of pictures I just took, featuring a "burn cycle" in my Napoleon NPS40, the free-standing version of the insert that you have. Right now the feed is on 4 (as recommended by the owner's manual) the convection blower/fan is on 3, and the damper is on 3. This is the type of cycle that you seek: the previous "load" of pellets is almost completely spent, but there are enough embers remaining to ignite the next load of pellets, and the flame builds until the pellets that have accumulated in the pot burn down to embers, with enough embers remaining to ignite the next accumulation of pellets. Your stove should be able to burn cleanly like this for a number of days. I just cleaned our stove this morning; previously we cleaned it on Tuesday, Christmas day. (Sorry about all of the pictures, everybody, but this is the type of series of pictures that helped me when I was trying to understand what a normal "burn cycle" looked like.)


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## becasunshine (Dec 28, 2012)

... and for those of you who always remind me that "without pictures, it didn't happen!" here are the settings, and proof of temperature in the room. 

Glocke, if you look closely at the first few "burn cycle" pictures above, you'll see the air holes in the bottom of our burn pot. Personally, I like to see this- it tells me that the stove is burning cleanly and that I'll have a couple of days of good burn before I have to clean it again. Keep working on it- you'll figure out what's not working and get it straight!

P.S. one more thing- I just read this recently on this forum- if you are replacing door gaskets on a Napoleon you have to get Napoleon-specific gaskets.  The generic door gaskets won't work.  Use the "search" box and type in "replace Napoleon door gasket" to see if you can find that thread.  I need to go back and find it as well.  We are going to have to replace our door gaskets too, eventually, and we'll need that information.  Also, if you are going to replace the door gaskets, check your ash pan gaskets as well (with the dollar bill test) to make sure that they aren't ready to be replaced.


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## save$ (Dec 28, 2012)

becasunshine said:


> ... and for those of you who always remind me that "without pictures, it didn't happen!" here are the settings, and proof of temperature in the room.
> 
> Glocke, if you look closely at the first few "burn cycle" pictures above, you'll see the air holes in the bottom of our burn pot. Personally, I like to see this- it tells me that the stove is burning cleanly and that I'll have a couple of days of good burn before I have to clean it again. Keep working on it- you'll figure out what's not working and get it straight!
> 
> P.S. one more thing- I just read this recently on this forum- if you are replacing door gaskets on a Napoleon you have to get Napoleon-specific gaskets.  The generic door gaskets won't work.  Use the "search" box and type in "replace Napoleon door gasket" to see if you can find that thread.  I need to go back and find it as well.  We are going to have to replace our door gaskets too, eventually, and we'll need that information.  Also, if you are going to replace the door gaskets, check your ash pan gaskets as well (with the dollar bill test) to make sure that they aren't ready to be replaced.


The gasket is often hard to find.  The glass gasket and door are one in the same.   I can provide a number if you need.   Cost is about $26.   More than that and you are being ripped off.  There isn't a pan gasket for this incert stove.


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## save$ (Dec 28, 2012)

movemaine said:


> My parents have a Napoleon in the house they are renting - I believe it's the same stove. I purchased Oakies for them and MWP Softies, but the stove doesn't seem to put out much heat. The house does suffer from quite a bit of heat loss (being ancient), however the air coming out of the stove often doesn't feel hot/warm - almost lukewarm, at best.


Same stove here.   It is 25 F outside and 73F inside upstairs.   Our stove is in the family room  (76f) of lower level split entry home.  Back bedroom is cooler at 70f.  We have 3 bedrooms I try to close the doors to.   They are cooler, but less heat wasted.   Our bedroom is always open.    I am burning reg. MWP.   I have two tons of the MWP softies but have yet to try them.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 28, 2012)

ducker said:


> I would think that most stove would be able to burn through more than 1 bag of pellets in a 24 hour period. I know on the coldest days, to get the house warm and comfortable, I have to crank up my Harman P38 up quite a bit, and can go through about 2 bags of pellets. Again perhaps it's just this model that suggest you don't push the unit that hard/far.


 
They don't if you have their feed rate restricted. I can go over a day with mine on its lowest setting but then I wouldn't expect it to produce a pile of heat or raise the temperature in the house much if it was really cold outside.


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## save$ (Dec 28, 2012)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> They don't if you have their feed rate restricted. I can go over a day with mine on its lowest setting but then I wouldn't expect it to produce a pile of heat or raise the temperature in the house much if it was really cold outside.


http://a1stoves.com/free/Napoleon_NPS40_Manual.pdf


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 28, 2012)

Yup and that stove's manual says it can get up to 55 hours on a bag of pellets on its lowest setting.  

Or if it has a somewhat linear set of firing rates the 4 is four pounds an hour and it should get 10 hours per bag. 

If you turn it down to 2 you'll get  20 hours out of a bag or will it be more.  That's assuming an awful lot of things for a device that actually feeds fuel by volume.

But the point remains that OP has issues when he turns the stove up in getting a complete burn, and it appears his primary gasket is bad.

Now air flow impacts pellet feed how? 

Oh yeah the vacuum switch doesn't always stay closed and the auger doesn't run as long as the controller tells it to, this is almost as good has having a slipping coupling between the auger motor and the auger.


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## Countryboymo (Dec 28, 2012)

I know you trust the people that did the cleaning but something isn't right and it will be much more valuable in the long run for you to figure this one out yourself with our help.  It will save you $$ in having the other guys do it, you will learn if they are doing a decent job on the maintenance and you will be more comfortable if a big storm is coming that if something did go bad that you can probably fix the problem if no one else can get out to you. 

It should be able to eat 2+ bags a day and do it cleanly.


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## stoveguy2esw (Dec 28, 2012)

im still fixated on the 24 hour bag. is that all it will do? i mean can it feed more than this? sorry i dont really know the nap's very well havent touched one, but the unit claims a 45Kbtu  rating so it should be able to feed 4 to 5 lbs an hour. not 1.8 (24 hour bag) which is gonna give you a best case of about 10kbtu.

does it feed noticeably less fuel when you turn it down? is it feeding consistently every so many seconds you should get a fuel drop into the pot, is this happening or are we seeing gaps in this cycle where you do not get steady fuel?


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## becasunshine (Dec 28, 2012)

Mike, the manual says that the maximum burn time on "low" burn is 55 hours for a 55 lbs. hopper.  Unless there's some fancy algorithm of which I am not aware, that's a pound an hour on the lowest functional burn setting (which the manual says will vary somewhat by installation and pellet quality; the lowest functional feed setting for your stove might be, say, a feed rate of "2" on the dial as opposed to "1".)  As Smokey says, assuming a linear relationship, the feed setting of "4" as recommended by the manual for the most efficient burn would burn 4 lbs. an hour- or 10 hours per bag. 

We have the corresponding free standing stove, the Napoleon NPS40, and I guess that's about right...  to be honest, I've never timed it out.  We typically run our stove at feed 4, damper 3, blower 3.  We often shut it down during the warmest part of the day to dump ash out of the burn pot, vacuum out the fire box, clean the glass and empty the ash pan.  That only takes about 5 minutes to do- but the stove is shut down for a few hours prior to that cleaning.  That means that if the weather/winter is relatively mild, the stove is shut down for a few hours pretty much every afternoon.  We fill it up before we restart it.  I guess we use about a bag a day- about a 40 lbs. bag in a 24 hour period- which is less than 4 lbs. an hour by a straight up calculation, even allowing for up to 4 hours of down time while the stove cools. 

During really cold periods we let the stove run for a few days in between cleanings.  I'll try to pay attention then to how many bags of pellets we use while running continuously 24/7 on feed setting "4."

BTW, Mike, our son and his wife live in Lynchburg.  Our son lived in Madison Heights when he was in grad school.  Beautiful historic houses in Madison Heights!


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## stoveguy2esw (Dec 29, 2012)

becasunshine said:


> Mike, the manual says that the maximum burn time on "low" burn is 55 hours for a 55 lbs. hopper. Unless there's some fancy algorithm of which I am not aware, that's a pound an hour on the lowest functional burn setting (which the manual says will vary somewhat by installation and pellet quality; the lowest functional feed setting for your stove might be, say, a feed rate of "2" on the dial as opposed to "1".) As Smokey says, assuming a linear relationship, the feed setting of "4" as recommended by the manual for the most efficient burn would burn 4 lbs. an hour- or 10 hours per bag.
> 
> We have the corresponding free standing stove, the Napoleon NPS40, and I guess that's about right... to be honest, I've never timed it out. We typically run our stove at feed 4, damper 3, blower 3. We often shut it down during the warmest part of the day to dump ash out of the burn pot, vacuum out the fire box, clean the glass and empty the ash pan. That only takes about 5 minutes to do- but the stove is shut down for a few hours prior to that cleaning. That means that if the weather/winter is relatively mild, the stove is shut down for a few hours pretty much every afternoon. We fill it up before we restart it. I guess we use about a bag a day- about a 40 lbs. bag in a 24 hour period- which is less than 4 lbs. an hour by a straight up calculation, even allowing for up to 4 hours of down time while the stove cools.
> 
> ...


 

no kidding! kool where'd he do his grad school? we have a few colleges in lynchburg.

oh and ty for the info on the napoleon. i really have never played with one so i have to be quite general in suggesting stuff. a bag in 24 hours though is 1.8 lbs/hr roughly which is not even close to 45Kbtu, im looking more at lbs/hr not so much at settings, i would expect a user not getting enough heat to run in higher ranges not lower ones which is why i was curious about the duration he was getting per bag.


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## becasunshine (Dec 29, 2012)

I'll PM you, Mike, re:  grad school- you'll get a kick out of it!  Seriously, the next time we run for 24 hours straight for a few days, I will pay attention to how many times we feed the stove.  We don't let it burn down to an empty hopper every time, or even down to where it will take a full bag every time.  We fill the hopper every day during burn season, and most often we have a partial bag left over- but we don't necessarily fill it at the same time every day.  In other words, I have been less than scientific about it.  We haven't yet burned a ton this season, but we are coming up on it.  I'd estimate that we have burned about 40 bags of pellets since the end of October.  Husband concurs.  That's just about right- we haven't hit the coldest part of winter, and we typically burn about 2 tons a season if it's cold.


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## seige101 (Dec 29, 2012)

Glad to see Glocke is still around after a couple of forum 'members' acted like @$$holes. Maybe the mods can come in and give a few spankings and clean up the thread a little bit.


Welcome to the forum Glocke, stick around the majority of the folks here are great and will help you the best they can. With a little trouble shooting i think you will be up and running 100% in no time.


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## stoveguy2esw (Dec 29, 2012)

no worries, my questions are to help me develop a theory which may help the OP figure out his issue. there's a method to my madness. rather than make suggestions first i prefer to look at symptoms based mostly on my knowledge of general operation and theory of pellet stoves, then try to put the information together to give a potentially more accurate suggestion.

not knowing all of the operating systems in my competitors stoves is a bit of a handicap to me, but i understand the dynamics of how they generally operate very well, and i understand fire and what it does to air. spent the better part of 20 years learning this. helps that im addicted to fire in general, controlled fire specifically. i've actually sat and watched campfires trying to pick out why a certain part of it isn't burning as efficiently as another.  silly i know, but fascinating at the same time


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## becasunshine (Dec 31, 2012)

glocke12 and stoveguy2esw, I just wanted to let you guys know that we are working on timing out a 55 lbs. hopper full of pellets vs. a feed setting of 4.  Right now we are about 25 hours in, and we have, by my visual estimation, about 10 lbs. left in the hopper. 

We're staying in tonight; we did everything we've ever wanted to do on NYE years ago.  Now we are happy to stay home in our warm, comfy house, with our furbabies, eat a great meal and let the partiers have the roads after midnight.      I should be able to hop back on later and give a more accurate lbs/hour rate when the hopper is close to empty.

Happy New Year, everybody!


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## stoveguy2esw (Dec 31, 2012)

well, if your "eyeball" guess is accurate you are at 1.8 lbs/hr which is a 24 hour bag. kinda low in output our units run at about that rate on h/r 1 of 9 up to 5 lb/hr on high. interesting wonder what that stove feeds on its lowest range not asking for a test run just thinking aloud with my fingers 

hope you folks have a happy and prosperous new year, good of you to take the time to run this test to help out our OP


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## becasunshine (Dec 31, 2012)

This is what remains in the hopper as of a few minutes ago. We started this burn yesterday at about 6:15 pm with a full hopper. That would be about 26 hours ago. The hopper holds 55 lbs. According to the manual, burn rate is in pounds per hour, and is listed as 1.0 to 5.0 on the specs chart. (I guess I never read that chart closely enough until right now- it clearly states: "Burn Rate (Pounds per Hour)** 1.0 to 5.0
** Small pellets will increase or decrease the stated burn rates and burn times. Differences of plus or minus 20% depending on fuel quality may occur."

So, at the recommended setting of 4, the stove should be, optimally, burning 4 lbs./hour, or a bag every 10 hours. In my experience, we have never burned two full bags of pellets in a 24 hour period. I just don't remember it that way, and today's trial isn't showing that either.

To further fill out this picture, we were away for the weekend. We left the stove off and the heat turned down while we were gone, so we came home to a cool house. We came home after dark, bumped the HVAC thermostat up and started the stove from cold, clean and full. We are using it to heat/supplement 1420 sq ft. The natural gas furnace ran for about an hour or so to bring the house up to temperature, aided by the pellet stove. The HVAC thermostat is in the hallway, immediately outside of the doorway to the room in which the stove is installed. The HVAC return is high on the wall, near the ceiling, in the same hallway, above the thermostat, right outside of the stove room. When the HVAC is on, it pulls stove heated air out of the stove room, across the thermostat and into the return above. It didn't take long to bring the house, or at least the hallway and the thermostat, up to our desired temperature. The heat distributed through the house fairly quickly as heat follows cold and we have a circular floor plan, with the stove blowing out of the doorway and into the L-shaped hallway in that circle. The HVAC cut on once or twice more last night, briefly. It fell to freezing quickly, and we had overnight/early morning temps in the 20's. The HVAC cut on again this morning, once, and hasn't cut back on today.

It's been cold to cool today, and overcast, which is a factor with our brick and block house. We have no wall insulation besides our brick, block and plaster mass. The attic is well insulated, as is the underside of the floor. We have a south/southwestern exposure and that lends a lot to thermal gain when the sun is out.

The house stayed cool today- about 65'F, right at the setting on the HVAC thermostat. The heat didn't kick on, but "just barely."

According to the Napoleon's owners manual, the stove is rated to heat 800 to 2000 sq ft, and should produce 8500 to 42,500 btu/hour.

I am stating all of this info here again, together, because one of the questions appears to be, are these Napoleon stoves putting out the btu's as advertised? We've always put the blame for any "lack of heat" on our lack of wall insulation, and initially, on less than optimal attic insulation. We've since beefed up the attic insulation and that has helped. We can't do much about the lack of wall insulation other than skim coat the entire exterior of the house- and we aren't doing that.

A couple of years ago we were at our stove shop, and they had a pellet stove running in the shop. As in glocke12's experience, we were surprised at the heat that stove was putting out. We remarked that our Napoleon didn't seem to put out as much heat as that stove. The salesman said that the stove was running so hot because it was set on high feed and was burning through pellets at a remarkable rate. Btu's in = btu's out. Most people wouldn't run their stove on high like that in an every day situation.

That particular shop stocks Travis Industry pellet stoves now. They no longer carry Napoleon pellet stoves. I don't remember the name brand of the stove, but I remember that it was a large free-standing pellet stove, and given that the shop carries Travis Industry products, I'm betting that it was an Avalon.

Yeah, I guess I'm a little surprised that we aren't eating through more pellets at a feed setting of 4, which should be 4 lbs./hour, but apparently is not. Makes me wish that I'd read that chart more closely and that I'd done the calculations while the stove was under warranty. What could or should we do about it now? Is it a pellet thing, or a feed thing? And how to tell the difference?

I know that the manual recommends a feed setting of 4. I can find that in the manual with no problem. Somewhere, some time ago, I seem to remember coming across a piece of information that stated that the stove should not be run on the highest feed setting of 5 for more than one hour at a time. I cannot seem to get my hands or eyes back onto that piece of information- I can't track it down. Suffice it to say that I am reluctant to run the stove on 5.

So other than putting in super high efficiency hot burning pellets, how can we squeeze more btu's out of this stove? What to do about the lbs./hour feed issue, if anything?


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 31, 2012)

Well it might surprise you Beca but Mike and I have discussed a few things about what happens in relation to the vacuum switch and the gaskets on the stove (and this would apply to just about any stove).

It turns out that as the fire builds the air density drops in the firebox, if this drop goes low enough the vacuum switch opens cutting some of the feed, this leads in a slight drop in temperature and and then increases density in the firebox which then closes the vacuum switch allowing pellets to feed again. Provided the vacuum switch doesn't stay open for too long the controller doesn't signal a vacuum fault and shut the stove down. The end result is actually a varying feed rate that would tend to push the effective feed rate toward the lower end of the scale instead of the higher end.

Anything that can replicate the pressure difference at the vacuum switch can also do the same thing if it is cyclical.


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## becasunshine (Dec 31, 2012)

Huh.  Interesting.  I know that the combustion motor gasket is practically brand new.  I changed it out about a month ago myself, when I pulled the combustion motor and did a thorough cleaning.  We burned a little bit last year after the last "big clean," and we started burning this year before another "big clean," so I just did a "big clean" about a month ago, a little off schedule but it was done.  I swapped out the combustion motor gasket at that time because the old one came apart at the screw holes when I pulled the motor.

We noticed, a couple of weeks ago, that the rheostat on the convection blower was acting up.  The convection fan would not run on settings lower than 5, or high, if it was turned on manually with the knob and turned straight down to a setting lower than 5 or high.  In order to get it to run, one had to turn it back to 5, or high, and then the fan would cut on.  Once the fan was running, one could then turn it down and it would continue to run.

My husband pulled the side and examined the convection fan.  It turned easily by hand, and it was clean.  Clean didn't surprise us:  I pulled that side of the stove off and vacuumed the convection fan when I did the big clean a month ago.  Not to brag, but our convection fan has never been dirty, not even dusty.  With a Labbie, a 20 lbs. cat and two adults living full time in 1420 sq ft, plus various friends, family and family pets in and out, we vacuum daily.  I'm not being virtuous; it's a matter of basic hygiene.  So the convection fan was not dirty or dusty.  BUT, my husband pulled it anyway, and vacuumed the housing behind it, and oiled it in the oil ports.  When he did, the convection blower gasket split at the screw holes.  We didn't have another convection blower gasket at the time.  We decided that since that was not on the "fire" side of the stove, it would be OK to piece the split gasket together in between the convection blower and the housing for the intake, being careful to make sure that the gasket ends abutted, and secure it with the screws. 

We've been running it like that since with apparently no trouble... we ordered new gaskets to replace the split gasket, and a new rheostat.  The gasket and the rheostat have arrived, and in keeping with our Pellet Stove Maintenance on Holidays mantra for this year, we were thinking of replacing both tomorrow.

The convection blower is still working, albeit it is now making a slightly louder, cyclical motor hum on occasion, so we are betting that we will be replacing that convection fan as well.  Debating whether or not to go ahead and order one now, and just have it here...

Anyway, could the split in the gasket on the convection blower side contribute to a drop in pressure in the fire box, thus interrupting/limiting the pellet feed, despite the feed setting?  Would a gasket split on the CONVECTION blower side do that? 

And no, it does not suprise me one bit that you and Mike have discussed fire box pressure vs. vacuum switches vs. gaskets!


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 31, 2012)

We weren't talking about the combustion blower gasket as much as about the OP's door gasket not passing the dollar bill test.

I can walk three bags of pellets a day through my stove no problem at all it has a similar firing rate range as your stove has and my hopper is also a 55 pound (such as poundage counts for much) unit.


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## becasunshine (Dec 31, 2012)

There is no way that we could put three bags of pellets through this stove in a 24 hour period. Huh. As soon as I typed that whole thing out, and was repeating it to my husband, it occured to me that y'all were probably talking about door gaskets rather than blower gaskets. Our gaskets passed the dollar bill test at the end of last year. Admittedly, I haven't done it this year. I will do it at next shut down. I don't suspect that's a problem; our stove is burning too cleanly, too brightly for a door gasket issue.

I'm going to try to put my hands/eyes back on the blurb about not burning the stove on high for more than an hour. I can't find it now, but I swear I thought that it was in the manual or in some other verifiable, reputable source. Gonna go find it now.

Thanks again for thinking through this with me, Smokey- you have always been a great resource!


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## stoveguy2esw (Dec 31, 2012)

looking at that picture i see what appears to be maybe a third to a quarter bag (hard to tell accurately as i do not have (nor do i need) the dimensions of the hopper, it ain't that important sweetie.

anyway for starters your "convection" (aka room air) blower gasket has nothing at all to do with anything, its usually there more for noise absorption than anything.

im shuddering now as i hope i haven't opened a can of worms with you guys, i am assuming you have been satisfied with your stove and i don't want to displace that with any fear it isn't working right.

i look at hard numbers a lot. i know roughly what a pound of pellets contains as far as BTU "potential" so looking at what is contained i extrapolate a reasonable approximation of what one gets into the room based on fuel spent per hour figuring on complete combustion. this is what has interested me in your little experiment. see for every pound of fuel you burn per hour (assuming you have complete combustion) you release about 8500 BTU of stored energy, from that you should be extracting roughly 6300 to 6800 BTU in realized heat depending on the efficiency of the heat transfer system of your stove, the rest leaves with the exhaust.

the amazing part is that the actual output of the stove at 1.8 lbs/hr is roughly 11394 to 12240 btu/hr, yet it is doing a proper job in maintaining the heat load in your home. this is a good thing as its very economical to run a bag per 24 hours.

now , take a lesser insulated structure, you may not be able to actually heat the structure with that output. heat ain't magic, its physics. heat cannot be destroyed , once created it can only be dissipated which happens when the thermal energy is distributed to colder molecules from warmer ones. the amount of dissipation depends on a delta of sorts the difference in temperature between one particle of air or solid compared to the ones which surround it. the higher the delta , the more robust the dissipation rate and thus the lesser realized gain in overall heat of a space or solid.

bear in mind im stretching the ability of my beer soaked brain to lay this out , but ive re-read it a few times and im thinking ive got the theory nailed as far as laymans terms. its complicated in mathematical terms but in practice its simple

take an ice cube, sit it in a room with a constant 70 F temperature, it melts at a certain rate due to the "delta between its surface and the surrounding air. heat is dissipated at a given rate based on that differential. now take the same ice cube, put it in a room which is sustained at 60 F the delta is smaller so the rate of dissipation is slower hence the ice melts slower the ability to gain heat works the same way, the gain rate changes the delta (the air in the room being the ice and the stove being the room in this case) since the room doesn't sustain a lower temp due to higher insulation factor the gains are higher, in a room where the heat is dissipated at a higher rate due to lesser insulation the dissipation rate is higher and the room doesn't warm as fast if at all.


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## becasunshine (Dec 31, 2012)

No problem, Mike, and thank you for responding- you're not raising any doubts or questions that we haven't already entertained, especially when we discovered that Avalon apparently putting out more heat.

It's not unusual to fail to recognize blessings (in this case, apparently, the btu's generated are mostly staying inside the living areas of the house, i.e. we are retaining the heat produced) when one doesn't yet fully understand the math and the physics involved in the equation.

After four years of pellet stove ownership I will freely admit that I'm still on that learning curve. I understand the form and function better now than I did when we started, but I will freely admit that I'm still learning the finer points and even some of the simpler points. It never occured to me until today that maybe I need to know *exactly* how many pounds we are burning an hour, and what that does for the btu output- simple but I just never thought about it before. On the other hand, as you've pointed out, if we are extracting enough heat to maintain and even raise the temperature in a 1420 sq ft house by burning just under 2 lbs of pellets per hour, we don't necessarily have a problem, we might just have a really efficient stove, or a well-enough insulated house, or some combination of both.

I know that previous issues with maintaining the heat in the house were directly related to inadequate insulation in the attic. Adding insulation in the attic made a HUGE difference. Thermal curtain panels over the cell shades over the double paned windows blocked convective cooling that we experienced around the edges of the cell shades a couple of winters ago, during that long stretch of sub-freezing temps both day and night, and thick area rugs on the wooden floors helped as well. Since then the pellet stove has carried the house much better.

Nevertheless, if Napoleon says that a feed rate of 4 equals 4 lbs. an hour, then the feed rate at 4 should be somewhere around 4 lbs. an hour. Even allowing for the 20% decrease in feed rate with small pellets, as noted in the owner's manual, we should have a burn rate of at least 3.2 lbs. an hour, or about 3 lbs. an hour- or 72 lbs. - 76.8 lbs. in a 24 hour period- or two bags in 24 hours. We've never burned through two bags in a 24 hour period during a continuous 24 hour burn.

Right now we are at 28.75 hours and there are *still* pellets left in the hopper, see below. Not many, but the hopper isn't empty yet. I bet we hit midnight, 30 hours, before we burn through 55 lbs.

So, to answer this question, I have sent an email to Napoleon, asking about this discrepancy. I think it's a fair question.

I'm a bit of a physics geek (I understand delta T and heat dissipation) and I'm married to an IT geek. We love numbers.  

To that end, see my highly scientific candy thermometer stuck in the far left convection blower outlet, the "hot" side, of the stove. When I took the pictures, the thermometer read about 325'F. Right now it is at 310'F, but a few minutes ago, it was at 330'F. I guess the temp is varying with the height of the flame in the burn cycle. At any rate, I can't complain about a temp output of over 300'F, regardless of feed rate.  And the temperature in the house is rising, without any assistance from the HVAC. Again, can't complain!

Thank you again, Mike and Smokey... and glocke12, if you are still out there, I hope this discussion is helping you parse through the variables with your stove and set up... don't give up on it!


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## save$ (Dec 31, 2012)

I have never been able to run a bag through any faster than one in 12 hrs.
My home is insulated and sealed. storm windows on the thermopane windows and even on the atrium doors.  Double entry way used duing the winter.   The way to get more heat from a properly maintained stove is to insulate the home at every point possible.   Lots of ways to improve the insulation.  We did it on ours and now get pay back every winter.


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## becasunshine (Dec 31, 2012)

Save$, I'm curious- when you are running through a bag in 12 hours, what is your feed setting?  (And have you ever run across that mysterious blurb about never running your stove on high, or 5, for more than an hour, or did I dream that, like I'm beginning to think I did???)  I'm sitting on feed setting 4 at hour 29 on one 55 lbs. hopper full and I still have pellets in the hopper.  Not many, mind you, but it ain't empty yet. 

Boy, *we* know how to have fun on NYE!


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