# New York State DEC Announces Proposed OWB Rule and Hearing Dates



## altheating (Apr 22, 2010)

I received this from NYS DEC yesterday. I placed a copy of the proposed regulations at http://www.altheating.com/Part247ProposedRule.pdf


"Dear Stakeholders:

Attached are copies of DEC's proposed regulation for outdoor wood boilers (Part 247) and the hearing notice that will appear in the State Register today.  The DEC will hold 11 hearings as follows:

June 3:  Watertown
June 7:  Stony Brook
June 8:  Albany
June 9:  Pomona
June 10: Herkimer
June 14:  Batavia
June 15:  Cortland
June 16:  Belmont
June 17:  Dunkirk
June 21:  Staatsburg
June 23:  Saranac Lake

All hearings will begin at 6:00pm.  Informal public information sessions will be held at each location beginning at 5:00 pm.  The locations of the hearings are included in the hearing notice.  The public comment period ends on July 2, 2010."


----------



## EricV (Apr 22, 2010)

Looks good to me.  There is some stupid SOB just installed one in his front yard in my town , 150 feet from the elementary school and it blows right into the school yard quite often.  He is 15 feet from his  property line bordering the road, 150 to the school building. Under this proposal he would have to stop using it.


----------



## ewdudley (Apr 22, 2010)

EricV said:
			
		

> Looks good to me.  There is some stupid SOB just installed one in his front yard in my town , 150 feet from the elementary school and it blows right into the school yard quite often.  He is 15 feet from his  property line bordering the road, 150 to the school building. Under this proposal he would have to stop using it.



There's some grandfathering:


```
Section 247.10 Requirements for existing outdoor wood boilers.

(a) Effective October 1, 2011, all existing outdoor wood boilers shall be equipped with a
permanent stack extending a minimum of two feet above the peak of any roof structure located within 150 feet
of the outdoor wood boiler and no less than 18 feet above ground level.

(b) Phase out of existing outdoor wood boilers.

1. An existing outdoor wood boiler that commenced operation prior to September 1, 2005 must
be replaced with a new outdoor wood boiler meeting the requirements of this Part or must be
permanently removed from service no later than August 31, 2015.

2. An existing outdoor wood boiler that commenced operation between September 1, 2005 and
April 14, 2011 must be replaced with a new outdoor wood boiler meeting the requirements of this Part
or must be permanently removed from service within ten years of the commence operation date but not
later than August 31, 2020.
```

So he needs a new stack next fall, but the unit can be operated for ten years.

--ewd


----------



## EricV (Apr 22, 2010)

This part gets him.  his smoke routinely hits the school building.  part 3.

(c) No person shall cause or allow emissions of air contaminants from an outdoor wood boiler to the
outdoor atmosphere of a quantity, characteristic or duration which is injurious to human, plant or animal life or
to property, or which unreasonably interferes with the comfortable enjoyment of life or property. This
prohibition applies, but is not limited to, the following conditions:
(1) activating smoke detectors in neighboring structures;
(2) impairing visibility on a public highway; or
(3) causing a visible plume migrating from an outdoor wood boiler and contacting a building on
an adjacent property.


----------



## ewdudley (Apr 22, 2010)

EricV said:
			
		

> This part gets him.  his smoke routinely hits the school building.  part 3.
> ...
> (3) causing a visible plume migrating from an outdoor wood boiler and contacting a building on
> an adjacent property.



Looks good.  In theory well-behaved operators can be left alone for a decade or so, and yet something can be done about the less-neighborly among us.  There are many OWB operators in my area who have sheds full of a couple year's supply of split wood, and you never see any smoke from them.


----------



## ISeeDeadBTUs (Apr 22, 2010)

DEC is still an agency of NYS, yes??

The State will be bankrupt and will be bouncing DEC officer's paychecks before this ban goes into effect.


----------



## shagy (Apr 22, 2010)

People need to wake up on this one.It is not only outdoor models but any Hydronic wood burning boiler housed in a structure not inhabited by humans. If one puts in a EKO ,  Garn , Bioheat etc in a building like a garage or storage shed it will be considered a outdoor boiler.In addition to that none above have met phase 2 test. People better band together and quit this badgering over inside vs outside gassers and stand together.
 The going to Phase 2 is not all bad. The cleaner furnaces are here. Its the part of a owner having to destroy a furnace after 10 yrs. That is wrong! How many cars and big trucks are on the road pre emission standard lets say 1990. No one told them to destroy there polluting smog producing animals.


----------



## chiefburritt (Apr 22, 2010)

shagy said:
			
		

> People need to wake up on this one.It is not only outdoor models but any Hydronic wood burning boiler housed in a structure not inhabited by humans. If one puts in a EKO ,  Garn , Bioheat etc in a building like a garage or storage shed it will be considered a outdoor boiler.In addition to that none above have met phase 2 test. People better band together and quit this badgering over inside vs outside gassers and stand together.
> The going to Phase 2 is not all bad. The cleaner furnaces are here. Its the part of a owner having to destroy a furnace after 10 yrs. That is wrong! How many cars and big trucks are on the road pre emission standard lets say 1990. No one told them to destroy there polluting smog producing animals.



You are entirely correct!


----------



## leaddog (Apr 22, 2010)

Just another case of the GOV throwing out the kid with the bath water. They take a problem and make it worse and hurt the people that are trying to do things right. The people that are making the regs don't have a clue and they just listen to the lobbiests. You have to realize that there isn't any money for the gov in wood burning. They can tax elect, oil, gas and propane. Also the heating and plumbing people don't like wood  as there isn't as much money in it for them. Now if they would put as much work in education, designing regs and making it easier to burn wood, chips etc they wouldn't have the smoke proplem and the air would be cleaner. You couldn't even have a Garn as it would be considered a comercial unit, and heaven forbid using a horizonal flue. Oh yea they are smart alright. And we want them to manage our health care.
leaddog


----------



## leaddog (Apr 22, 2010)

Oh by the way just remember that NY has been leading the charge on this and where NY goes most of the rest of the states will follow. I'm surprised that they don't have that ASME stamp rule also so we can pay more cause all these Europe style boilers are going to blow up. Michigan and Mass took care of that. We can't even put in our own water heater cause the common man is just to stupid so it has to be done by a licensed PRO.
leaddog


----------



## yanksforever (Apr 23, 2010)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> DEC is still an agency of NYS, yes??
> 
> The State will be bankrupt and will be bouncing DEC officer's paychecks before this ban goes into effect.



Don't bet on it. We will be bankrupt before they will be. Big Brother always wins!


----------



## ken999 (Apr 23, 2010)

There's alot of things that irritate me about this proposal, but the one thing that stick out to me is how can DEC make people abandon their current piping, underdrain etc. just because they now decide to regulate WHERE you can put these boilers. It would seem to me that owners with older units should be able to replace them with new clean units and not have to re-do all the piping as it is a major PITA. There certainly needs to be a grandfather clause with the set-backs.


----------



## shagy (Apr 23, 2010)

yanksforever said:
			
		

> ISeeDeadBTUs said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Its nice to hear that not only NYers but people from other states think the NY DEC is nothing more than Nazi Stormtroopers


----------



## patch53 (Apr 23, 2010)

shagy said:
			
		

> yanksforever said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Over 1/2 the states in the country are technically insolvent, and many others are on the verge of being so. Most are borrowing from the Feds (who are bankrupt and need to borrow $4 billion/DAY) to pay for unemployment benefits. Soon there will be no choice for states but to start laying off non-essentail workers and eliminating services in order to just stay afloat. they will also be doing everything they can to find ways of increasing your taxes and jacking up fees and increasing penalties for any violations they find in any segment of business. This can only end badly !

Pat


----------



## lawandorder (Apr 23, 2010)

Dry steam said:
			
		

> shagy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I dont believe your entirely correct. If a hydronic boiler is specified for indoor installation/installation in structures not normally occupied by humans ie: Tarm, EKO etc  which are all labeled as indoor gasification boilers, i believe that  they are good to go.


----------



## NNYorker (Apr 23, 2010)

Add boiler patrol in addition to burn barrel patrol for our DEC officers. As mentioned, NY is on the cutting edge of new red tape, regulations, hidden taxes/fees........  Something needs to be done with the tire/trash burners......Common sense is not so common.....


----------



## heaterman (Apr 23, 2010)

shagy said:
			
		

> People need to wake up on this one.It is not only outdoor models but any Hydronic wood burning boiler housed in a structure not inhabited by humans. If one puts in a EKO ,  Garn , Bioheat etc in a building like a garage or storage shed it will be considered a outdoor boiler.In addition to that none above have met phase 2 test. People better band together and quit this badgering over inside vs outside gassers and stand together.
> The going to Phase 2 is not all bad. The cleaner furnaces are here. Its the part of a owner having to destroy a furnace after 10 yrs. That is wrong! How many cars and big trucks are on the road pre emission standard lets say 1990. No one told them to destroy there polluting smog producing animals.



The vast majority of OWB's fail or cease to be used before 10 years anyhow. Around here I have to say the probably 40-50% of the OWB's are toast by year 8 of operation.

Speaking for myself, I don't have any major problem with inside vs outside other than the unavoidable heat loss associated with an outdoor unit. As I've stated previously, the issue for me is the poor representation of actual field performance now furnished by the current testing protocol and the fact that people are buying these Phase II OWB's thinking they are "clean".


----------



## Frozen Canuck (Apr 23, 2010)

Have to agree, we see less years of service here as our heating season is longer than most south of 49.


----------



## altheating (Apr 23, 2010)

Lawandorder you wrote, "I dont believe your entirely correct. If a hydronic boiler is specified for indoor installation/installation in structures not normally occupied by humans ie: Tarm, EKO etc which are all labeled as indoor gasification boilers, i believe that they are good to go."

The new proposed regs state
 " ‘Outdoor wood boiler’. A fuel burning device that (a) is designed to burn wood or other
fuels; (b) is specified by the manufacturer for outdoor installation or installation in structures not
normally occupied by humans; and (c) is used to heat building space and/or water via the distribution,
typically through pipes, of a gas or liquid (e.g., water or water/antifreeze mixture) heated in the device."

I have run into this in the past with a few codes officers, basically if it is going in a building other than the house it is going to heat, Albany is calling it an Outdoor Boiler!


----------



## heaterman (Apr 23, 2010)

altheating said:
			
		

> Lawandorder you wrote, "I dont believe your entirely correct. If a hydronic boiler is specified for indoor installation/installation in structures not normally occupied by humans ie: Tarm, EKO etc which are all labeled as indoor gasification boilers, i believe that they are good to go."
> 
> The new proposed regs state
> " ‘Outdoor wood boiler’. A fuel burning device that (a) is designed to burn wood or other
> ...



That is the general consensus throughout the industry. If it's UL and/or CSA labeled as an indoor appliance it doesn't fall under that part of the regulation. 

On another note, I think that they are really struggling to come up with a test for the Garn. Having the storage integral to the unit throws the current test all out of whack.


----------



## leaddog (Apr 24, 2010)

heaterman said:
			
		

> altheating said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## heaterman (Apr 24, 2010)

leaddog said:
			
		

> heaterman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## heat4steve (Apr 24, 2010)

If these regulations go through my boiler will have to have a minimum vent height of 18' and be at least 2' above the closest roof. I am installing a boiler in a barn with a low roof near my house. The peak of my house roof is well over 30ft. I will have to have 20ft of pipe protruding through the barn roof to meet the regulation. It will propably need to be supported like a radio antennae. I will wait to see if the regulations come true before I do that.

Anyone know what the NYS tourism slogan is? I LOVE NY!  Maybe if I say it enough I will believe it.


----------



## heaterman (Apr 24, 2010)

Heat4Steve and anyone else faced with this. ............

 Go to the link below and print it off. If you can, reproduce the pictures in photo quality then take it to your local board or code official and politely request that they read through it. Let them know they are mandating something that is outside the manufacturers certification (in almost every case), that they are forcing installation of something that is unsafe in nearly any circumstance and that the regulation causes serious liability issues for both you and them because they have gone outside manufacturers specifications. (Look up the stack spec's in the manual for whatever brand you have to prove this) If they are not in the manual call the manufacturer of your product and ask them for their stack spec's and/or height limits in writing.

I know that the state of Ohio changed their mind on proposed stack heights when they were presented with this document. 

Everyone involved in the wood burning industry from manufacturer to the end user has to hang together on this or we will all hang separately (to quote a famous revolutionary era patriot)

http://garn.com/content/stacks.aspx


----------



## heat4steve (Apr 24, 2010)

heatermans,

Thanks for the link.  I would expect that my local official building inspector would accept this.  Would you expect a similar issue if the the stack was run up the inside of a brick chimney? That would be his next question.  His preference is for me to install a unit inside my home not outside.


----------



## heaterman (Apr 24, 2010)

I would recommend checking with the manufacturer of whatever unit you are considering/using. Ask them or look in a manual to find the recommendations and spec's for stack diameter and height. That will be your answer.

One huge issue with OWB's and stacks is that generally speaking, the taller the stack the greater the draft generated through the unit. This can and often does lead to severe over firing conditions especially in a natural draft appliance like the CB in the picture. Too much draft can be worse than not enough.


----------



## shagy (Apr 24, 2010)

heaterman said:
			
		

> I would recommend checking with the manufacturer of whatever unit you are considering/using. Ask them or look in a manual to find the recommendations and spec's for stack diameter and height. That will be your answer.
> 
> One huge issue with OWB's and stacks is that generally speaking, the taller the stack the greater the draft generated through the unit. This can and often does lead to severe over firing conditions especially in a natural draft appliance like the CB in the picture. Too much draft can be worse than not enough.


  Are you comparing a Garn gasser with a soon to be no longer made non gasser? Not a very good comparison is it? Are you saying that a Garn for example has no difference in performance with a short stack vs a tall stack? Would you say the same for your favorite brand? Im guessing its not a outdoor model.


----------



## shagy (Apr 24, 2010)

lawandorder said:
			
		

> Dry steam said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## shagy (Apr 24, 2010)

Frozen Canuck said:
			
		

> Have to agree, we see less years of service here as our heating season is longer than most south of 49.



In this area I know of stoves over 20yrs old and many over 15. Not as bad as commonly stated here. That is not the issue ...... People bought these with their hard earned money. These people love em. These are wanting to use these till they are not usable. They do not want the Nazi's to take way more rights.I know most on here think these people are somewhere between stupid and ignorant to use these,which is your right. But what if the next thing is indoor fireplaces. How about no more campfires?


----------



## heaterman (Apr 24, 2010)

shagy said:
			
		

> heaterman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nope. I'm talking about issues with tall stacks in general that apply to any wood burner. Doesn't matter if it's an OWB (although they are far worse) a Garn or any of the DD gassers. Now, that being said, an indoor boiler and stack present a completely different set of circumstances. As I said, read the manual for whatever type or brand of product you have and call the manufacturer if the stack or chimney recommendations are not clear. Manufacturers recommendations are the best line of defense against some of the ludicrous mandates on stack height that are being promulgated by state and local agencies. 
In addition, assuming that these agencies will stop at outdoor models and ignore complaints about wood smoke or smell generated by an indoor unit would be a flat out mistake. The wood burning industry has to take the lead on this and develop products that are as efficient and clean as possible rather than letting the regulators drive what is done. It may be too late for that already but I think direct and positive improvements that work at the actual point of use instead of the lab would mitigate the inevitable over correction that government bureaucrats always seem to enact.


----------



## shagy (Apr 25, 2010)

Heaterman.... your hitting that nail pretty firmly on the head


----------



## ken999 (Apr 25, 2010)

heaterman said:
			
		

> In addition, assuming that these agencies will stop at outdoor models and ignore complaints about wood smoke or smell generated by an indoor unit would be a flat out mistake. The wood burning industry has to take the lead on this and develop products that are as efficient and clean as possible rather than letting the regulators drive what is done. It may be too late for that already but I think direct and positive improvements that work at the actual point of use instead of the lab would mitigate the inevitable over correction that government bureaucrats always seem to enact.



Very true.

I was talking with the guy who taps the maples on my lot yesterday when he stopped to deliver my yearly gallon of syrup (yum). He lives 1/2 mile down the road and drives by constantly. He asked how I liked my boiler and commented on how little smoke he see's out of it compared to some of the others around. I felt pretty good about that. I mentioned to him the proposed regulations for the OWB's and the first thing he said was "How'bout all the indoor wood stoves?"..."Why aren't they going after them?"...

I doubt they will be stopping at the OWB's once the OWB owners ask those same questions at the upcoming public hearings. 

I'm certainly glad that there is an effort to steer people into cleaner units. Let's hope that the reaction within the industry is positive, and that the end users burn responsibly. I'd hate to see wood burning saddled with gross over-regulation and needless legislation.


----------



## EricV (Apr 25, 2010)

I may be wrong but indoor wood stoves already regulated by the EPA since 1992?  I believe they are limited to 7.5 grams of particulate per hour.  That is the phase II of the EPA regulations.  

I wonder what the particulate emission of an OWB is.


----------



## Frozen Canuck (Apr 25, 2010)

Have to agree with Ken.

OWB's are where it starts (low hanging fruit) also the major source of complaints from neighbors, as their smoke is so easy for all to see. After that problem is removed they will likely move on to wood stoves & gasers without storage, or in simple terms everything that is not a batch burner as they have a smoulder cycle built into their normal operation. Easier to pick out from the crowd.

Then it will be on to the batch burners (gasers with adequate storage) that do not have a smoulder cycle built into their normal operation.

Eventually we will probably see regs & testing methods that are similiar to those that already exist in western europe, lets just say Germany so everyone that wants one will have a reference point. In Germany they test every combustion appliance, if it burns a fuel it gets tested period.

Test varies with the type of fuel (input). After that it is down to the two most important factors, #1 Environmental Protection (emissions) or in simple terms how clean the appliance burns. #2 Resource Conservation or in simple terms how efficient the unit is.

So.... #1 you must pollute as little as possible no matter what fuel you burn. #2 Your appliance & the emitter system it supplies energy to must be highly efficient (not waste energy).

Kind of explains why their manufacturers spec a given volume of storage for each unit. Helps them comply with #1 & #2. Also explains why companies like Veissmann, Froling & a host of others spend so much time on R&D. Their regs won't allow the sale of a unit that does not comply, so the units stay in R&D until they are sure they will pass the test, then & only then do they move onto full scale production.

Kind of the opposite of the way a lot of the units come to market over here. We have some good maunfacturers that do the R&D first, then move onto production but by no means the majority.

BTW when you take the time to investigate you will see that their tests are much more stringent than anything that is even proposed here. For sure there are no EPA numbers that are totally irrelevant. They have progressed far beyond that & realize that their testing methods & the regulations must resemble real world operation of combustion appliances. 

That's one of the reasons that they spec a given MC % range for wood being burned in a unit. You won't find any of them stating that you can burn large green rounds in their appliances either. Come to think of it I don't recall them ever having an OWB industry over there. Please correct me if I am wrong but I think they avoided that whole nasty OWB issue that has us in a neighbor vs neighbor conflict over here, that essentially comes down to the right to breathe clean air.

IIRC the only unit that I have seen that they even partially expose to ambient temperatures/conditions is the Herlt bale burners, makes sense as they are fed with a tractor.

Kind of makes you wonder if they laugh or just hang their heads in disgust when they see & hear what is happening here. I wonder if they are tired of waiting for us to catch up or catch on.

I posted something similiar to this a few months ago & got a lot af responses that were shall we say.... off the deep end. Please try to avoid that as it only serves to convince the anti/non woodburning community that we are all just a bunch of self interested/self serving fanatics who operate with a total disreguard/lack of respect  for all others. Makes us easy targets.

That said: Please do give this issue some deep thought and post where you think we are going from here. Re: testing & regulations.

Just something I have noticed on this site, in a few months we have gone from "there will never be any testing/regulation" to "what kind of testing/regulation will be in place"? 

Maybe we are starting to catch up/catch on.


----------



## webbie (Apr 25, 2010)

ken999 said:
			
		

> Let's hope that the reaction within the industry is positive, and that the end users burn responsibly. I'd hate to see wood burning saddled with gross over-regulation and needless legislation.



It seems to me that our industry has partially dug their own grave. To this day, we have our major trade group fighting against regulation of OWB......with the only reason for that fight being the $$$ they receive from the OWB "lobby" (the makers).

It was, IMHO, a poor decision for our industry to get in bed with the dirty burners...and one which we will all pay for. The industry now has a pretty bad name up here - wood burning is considered as dirty...the result being that we are going to have to start a ground-up educational campaign if we want clean biomass to be a decent part of the energy mix in the NorthEast.

That is part of what the conference next week is about. These newer trade groups (HeatNE, Heatgreen and others) are 100% in the "as clean as possible" camp. 

Sometimes a big trade group can get too diluted when it tries to please everyone.


----------



## heaterman (Apr 25, 2010)

Jahwol Herr Commandant!  
Speaking of the Germans, I have to say they are absolutely relentless and even draconian in their pursuit of clean burning appliances, be they gas oil or wood. As I have been told, they have what amounts to "boiler police" over there. Every other year you have to have your boiler tested for efficiency and emissions. If it doesn't pass inspection you get a period of time to get it cleaned up, repaired or replaced. The "boiler police" return after the allotted time and check it again (all of which you pay for) and if it is not within spec, they take your boiler. No if, no and, no but, they just take you boiler. Doesn't matter if it's the middle of January or not, they just take your boiler.

I can see that happening here now that the EPA (thanks to executive order)  has the right to regulate CO2 emissions.  All because people, both manufacturers and end users, took the easy/cheap way out. One thing I have learned in the heating trades is that cheap, never is. I'm afraid a lot of folks are going to learn that lesson rather harshly.


----------



## Frozen Canuck (Apr 25, 2010)

Yes I have read the same about how the Germans enforce their rules re: combustion appliances.

Not sure if we will get there as our govt's are far more likely to tax/fine us into compliance. They like the excuse to get more $$$$$$.

Kind of gives one an idea of how far the pendulum can swing when a group refuses to clean up it's act though.

They are a democracy just like us, so don't go thinking that it will never happen here.


----------



## leaddog (Apr 26, 2010)

Frozen Canuck said:
			
		

> Yes I have read the same about how the Germans enforce their rules re: combustion appliances.
> 
> Not sure if we will get there as our govt's are far more likely to tax/fine us into compliance. They like the excuse to get more $$$$$$.
> 
> ...



Makes me glad that I'm 68 years old. I don't have that many more years and I hope I don't EVER see anything that stupid in my life time. I'm afraid that if it would come to that that there would be some real problems around here. Alot of people around here aren't very happy with more gov. But we ( the wood burning group ) are just like the hunting groups. We fight amongst ourselves and the anti's just keep picking away and soon we'll all be gone. 
Dove hunting here in Michigan is a good example, next is bear hunting, regulating wolves, controling deer in urban areas ,etc. 
They have already been trying to stop campfires here and regs on OWB's and I hear grumblings about fireplaces. 
Once you get a reg in place you will play hell in ever getting it changed. 
leaddog


----------



## heaterman (Apr 26, 2010)

leaddog said:
			
		

> Frozen Canuck said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We will find out this fall how many are sick of big government. We here in Michigan can take some cheer in that our governor is done this year. The scary thing though is that she may be headed to the Supreme court.  Lord, help us all. She and her minions have been trying for the last few years to do away with many forms of small, local government here in Michigan. Now it looks like they will try to centralize all political power in the capital through a constitutional convention. ..........It's that change thing again.........

God bless you Mr Robertson!


----------



## ken999 (Apr 26, 2010)

We are already under a no campfire ban....New York sucks....

Screw Germany. They can keep their boiler police. Pulling somebody's boiler in the middle of January is just insane. Nobody is going to die from it before April.

This is America...let's live like Americans. We shouldn't accept anything 'just because' the Europeans do it.

Give us clean burning boilers and incentives (tax-cuts) to use them and we will.

Very simple. No jack-booted thugs neccesary.

Nor are they welcome.


----------



## heaterman (Apr 26, 2010)

Not saying that's what I hope for here either but as long as cheap, dirty burning products are available, people will buy them. I think the only hope we have to eliminate products that perform poorly is to legislate that they can't be made period.

BTW, the campfire thing is being discussed here in Michigan right now also.  I would wager that the EPA produces more CO2 generating their paperwork and running around doing their studies than all the campfires in Michigan combined. 

I really don't like contemplating where this thing could end up, but as Craig said in one of the recent posts, we have brought it upon ourselves through poor products and practices. 

 The can is open and worms are everywhere.


----------



## ken999 (Apr 26, 2010)

I agree....


----------



## EricV (Apr 26, 2010)

ken999 said:
			
		

> We are already under a no campfire ban....New York sucks....
> 
> Screw Germany. They can keep their boiler police. Pulling somebody's boiler in the middle of January is just insane. Nobody is going to die from it before April.
> 
> ...



Camp fires are not banned.  Open fires are banned but not campfires nor fires for religious celebrations.  

Get your facts right please.

And there is a true liberal American, don't do the right thing unless some one else pays for it with a tax incentive.  I paid for my boiler with my own hard earned money and I'm proud of it.


----------



## Como (Apr 26, 2010)

Freedom to pollute.

Or freedom not to be polluted?

Take your pick.

I will go with the second.


----------



## ISeeDeadBTUs (Apr 26, 2010)

I'm way ahead of ya all . . . I'll trade my GreenWood for a Viessmann :lol:


----------



## heaterman (Apr 26, 2010)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> I'm way ahead of ya all . . . I'll trade my GreenWood for a Viessmann :lol:



Working on that.....


----------



## ken999 (Apr 26, 2010)

EricV said:
			
		

> ken999 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



...right...Open fire...Campfire...what's the difference? If I want to burn some brush here in the yard, do I get a get out of jail pass if I pitch a tent next to it and call it camping? My point was we've already got some rediculous laws with regards to outdoor fires.

And I'm about as far from a liberal as it gets Eric. You can get off your horse now. Last I checked, EVERYONE pays for there own boiler, unless I missed a free sale or something.

Tax cuts certainly draw peoples attention, and there's alot of people who do not know diddley about gasification. Whats wrong with THAT? Get more people looking into burning a renewable resource instead of foreign oil. I fail to see the liberalism.


----------



## EricV (Apr 26, 2010)

Well the burning laws have a very good reason.  This time of year there is usually several hundred fire calls involving paid fire departments, volunteer fire departments and state Rangers that  are caused by plain folk like us burning a little brush in their yard.  This is an attempt to discourage  those fires until mid May when things green up again and they are less apt to get out of control quite as easy.

As far as the liberalism, you said it, not me

"Give us clean burning boilers and incentives (tax-cuts) to use them and we will"

There, horse is dead.


----------



## DBoon (Apr 27, 2010)

> As I have been told, they have what amounts to “boiler police” over there. Every other year you have to have your boiler tested for efficiency and emissions. If it doesn’t pass inspection you get a period of time to get it cleaned up, repaired or replaced. The “boiler police” return after the allotted time and check it again (all of which you pay for) and if it is not within spec, they take your boiler. No if, no and, no but, they just take you boiler. Doesn’t matter if it’s the middle of January or not, they just take your boiler.



I'd just like to do some fact checking before I accept this statement at face value.  What is the source of your information?  Perhaps you can provide a web link or some other reference?  It's not out of the realm of believability, but then again, that's how a lot of statements get accepted as general truths when in fact there is no truth behind them.


----------



## ken999 (Apr 27, 2010)

EricV said:
			
		

> And there is a true liberal American, don't do the right thing unless some one else pays for it with a tax incentive.



Here's the part your missing.

Your basing my supposed liberalism on "don't do the RIGHT thing"...

The right thing isn't always the SAME thing for everyone. In the context of what we are talking about, there are some instances where a regular old OWB have applications, and they were LEGAL, but just because you don't approve of them period, that makes it wrong.


Like I said...time to dismount.


----------



## SolarAndWood (Apr 27, 2010)

I don't have a problem with what I assume is the spirit of the rule; one person's burning shouldn't impact another person's quality of life.  A few of the details concern me.  

First and foremost, it prevents me from buying the new Econoburn because of the setbacks.  

If, and I realize it is currently only an if, they were to apply this to indoor installations, it would prevent me from buying many clean burning units that don't successfully do the certification dance with NY.  And, I wouldn't be able to install any unit in my house because of the setback requirements.  

The last thing that bothers me is the property rights issue.  Who gave the state the right to tell me that I can no longer use my property that was in compliance when I bought it?  While I agree with the fuel and plume provisions, giving the state the power to set blanket arbitrary dates on equipment is ridiculous.  It ranks right up there with the towns having the authority to regulate the size and aesthetic qualities of my wood pile.

Am I right in assuming in its current form this has no bearing on the boiler I plan to install in my house?   Anyone know of anything in the pipeline behind it?


----------



## Frozen Canuck (Apr 27, 2010)

DBoon said:
			
		

> > As I have been told, they have what amounts to “boiler police” over there. Every other year you have to have your boiler tested for efficiency and emissions. If it doesn’t pass inspection you get a period of time to get it cleaned up, repaired or replaced. The “boiler police” return after the allotted time and check it again (all of which you pay for) and if it is not within spec, they take your boiler. No if, no and, no but, they just take you boiler. Doesn’t matter if it’s the middle of January or not, they just take your boiler.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd just like to do some fact checking before I accept this statement at face value.  What is the source of your information?  Perhaps you can provide a web link or some other reference?  It's not out of the realm of believability, but then again, that's how a lot of statements get accepted as general truths when in fact there is no truth behind them.




Tracked it down for you, sorry it took so long but silly season for me is beginning to get into full swing (Housing Contractor).

Anyhow here it is, go to Dan's site heatinghelp.com>click the hot tech tips tab>scroll down to the article the enormous scope of European hydronics>the info you are seeking is in the last half of that article.

Happy reading & yes the German's as well as other European nations take burning clean (no matter what fuel is used) very seriously indeed. Hope this helps.


----------



## heaterman (Apr 27, 2010)

DBoon said:
			
		

> > As I have been told, they have what amounts to “boiler police” over there. Every other year you have to have your boiler tested for efficiency and emissions. If it doesn’t pass inspection you get a period of time to get it cleaned up, repaired or replaced. The “boiler police” return after the allotted time and check it again (all of which you pay for) and if it is not within spec, they take your boiler. No if, no and, no but, they just take you boiler. Doesn’t matter if it’s the middle of January or not, they just take your boiler.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd just like to do some fact checking before I accept this statement at face value.  What is the source of your information?  Perhaps you can provide a web link or some other reference?  It's not out of the realm of believability, but then again, that's how a lot of statements get accepted as general truths when in fact there is no truth behind them.




I haven't taken the time to research German laws on that stuff personally but Dan Holohan told me that himself at a "Wetstock" gathering out east a few years ago. Lou Voorsteveld, who was head of US operations for Buderus at the time, told me the same thing. I have no reason to doubt either man. Dan travels extensively in Europe and has many contacts there at all the major manufacturers and Lou is from there. Neirther would have anything to gain from making stuff like that up. I take it as a fact.

They have a little different idea of personal freedom over there......it's called socialism. 
If you don't like that direction I would humbly suggest that you make your feelings known at the ballot box this fall.


----------



## Como (Apr 27, 2010)

Europe is many countries, each has their own regulations.

I doubt if the Russians care what you burn or what the emissions are. 

The German/Austrian manufacturers etc manufacture to the highest common standards.

Not much point making a dirty version just for sale in the US and Russia.


----------



## ken999 (Apr 28, 2010)

SolarAndWood said:
			
		

> I don't have a problem with what I assume is the spirit of the rule; one person's burning shouldn't impact another person's quality of life.  A few of the details concern me.
> 
> First and foremost, it prevents me from buying the new Econoburn because of the setbacks.
> 
> ...



The interesting thing I'm hearing (not sure if it is true yet....) is the DEC has no legal right to enforce any set-backs. That is up to the local code enforcement officers. It seems odd to me that they can write the law but can do nothing to enforce it, but thats what I've been told so far.

I'm not sure where that leaves you with regards to what boilers you can install though. It would seem rather foolish if you couldn't install a Econoburn downstairs but you are free to install a wood burning fireplace insert or freestanding stove upstairs wouldn't it?


----------



## webbie (Apr 28, 2010)

I have to laugh when folks equate being able to pollute the air and stink out their neighbors as "freedom" or "capitalism".

It seems some are still stuck back in the 50's or 60's.

The world has gotten smaller - we've been able to see that pollution generated here....ends up over there (wherever)....

We have seen population explode - and biomass is responsible for a vast percentage of the pollution in the air world wide.

On the other hand, we have created decent technology in order to burn cleaner and to get the most heat out of our limited resources. 

Sure, there are always problems with transitions, but in the end it is beholden on us to use the best available technology with whatever fuel we burn for heat.


----------



## heaterman (Apr 28, 2010)

_The interesting thing I’m hearing (not sure if it is true yet….) is the DEC has no legal right to enforce any set-backs. That is up to the local code enforcement officers. It seems odd to me that they can write the law but can do nothing to enforce it, but thats what I’ve been told so far._

It's called an unfunded mandate. It passes all the costs and headaches of enforcement down to the local guys who take all the grief. A favorite tactic of state government here in Michigan and I'm sure elsewhere also.


----------



## heaterman (Apr 28, 2010)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> I have to laugh when folks equate being able to pollute the air and stink out their neighbors as "freedom" or "capitalism".
> 
> It seems some are still stuck back in the 50's or 60's.
> 
> ...



Preach it brother Craig


----------



## SolarAndWood (Apr 28, 2010)

ken999 said:
			
		

> > Am I right in assuming in its current form this has no bearing on the boiler I plan to install in my house?   Anyone know of anything in the pipeline behind it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is my guess.  But, for example, is a Garn barn built against the side of the house an indoor or outdoor and residential or commercial boiler install?  Or, does a roof that attaches a shed with an Atmos in it make it part of the house or an outbuilding?  

As far as enforcement goes, I imagine this will just give local law and code enforcement a new tool to deal with sloppy burners that get blown in by their neighbors and prevent poor installs going forward.


----------



## shagy (Apr 28, 2010)

They have a little different idea of personal freedom over there......it's called socialism. 
If you don't like that direction I would humbly suggest that you make your feelings known at the ballot box this fall.[/quote]


 Heaterman you must have been a carpenter in your past life....  you keep hitting the nail on the head


----------



## heaterman (Apr 28, 2010)

SolarAndWood said:
			
		

> ken999 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



RE: code officials. It may give them a new tool but it will also give them fits as they are the ones who are going to actually hash out what this all means.  Oh how nice it would be if the regulatory powers just clearly said, "If you have a unit that burns to a certain standard for emissions and efficiency you can put it in anywhere."

The solution is clean burning appliances and people that know how to use them, not setbacks or tall stacks.


----------



## yanksforever (May 12, 2010)

It all comes down to one simple thing...if your outside boiler is smoking and stinking up your neighbors house and yard...
then fix that problem! And burn seasoned wood..not wet wood and garbage! It's your responsibility to be a good neighbor! If they walked their dog over to your beautiful manicured lawn and let their big dog crap all over it...you wouldn't like it either! Just do the responsible thing. All this petty bickering of liberal or 
conservative is a problem from watching too much Fox News Network or listening to that blow hard drug addict Rush Limbaugh....remember something
about Fox News...The More you watch...the LESS you know! And yes...there are a FEW liberal stations that are ridiculous too. It's not about politics...it's about
doing the right thing...then the state government doesn't need to step in!


----------



## EricV (May 12, 2010)

Being a Conservative has nothing to do with Fox News or Rush.  Neither of which can I stomach.

Pretty short sighted thinking that people who don't think we need tax breaks to do the right thing as you yourself boast (and very correctly I might add) must be related to Fox and Rush.  Sad...


----------



## yanksforever (May 12, 2010)

Never said anything about tax breaks. I don't like more taxes anymore than anybody else. The sad fact is...we can't function without them. I was speaking about owners of outside furnaces that stink up the whole neighborhood and then belly ache about regulation by the state when they were the ones that caused it by not giving a crap about their neighbors living condition and the labeling it a liberal move.


----------



## EricV (May 12, 2010)

I didn't mean to tie you to the tax break issue, my apologies for not being clearer on that.  That was a reference to a few posts back.    I just wanted to be clear not all conservatives are Rush or Fox  followers.  Like Jerry Springer said about his show, Rush is "for entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriuosly".

But your right, these guys stink up the area and then cry foul when the govt has to step in.  I'd prefer the gov't never had to step in but in times like this they need to.


----------

