# They make wussy trucks nowadays



## WiscWoody (Aug 4, 2019)

I have a truck rant going on since I saw a commercial for the new Chevy Silverado trucks with their power tailgates that also slice, dice and make julienne fries. I thought it was already bad that vans had the power rear doors... I mean what was wrong with just having the gas strut assisted opening and closing of the doors? I could maybe see that the power doors were good for a handicapped person but in my mind it’s just more to go wrong in a vehicle and it makes the vehicle more expensive which in the case of the power tailgates we don’t need more expensive trucks, not when some big super whiz bang diesel trucks are going for more than the $83,750 I paid for my new first house a a few decades ago. And just to get a well appointed gas truck as they say your looking at around $50,000 if I’m not mistaken. I like my ‘78 F-150’s tailgate. It’s solid as can be and it has a bars that fold in half when you lift and fold in when the tailgate is raised and locked into the up position, no cables that seem weaker to me but I do have those on my ‘03 Super Duty and ‘08 Super Duty plow truck. Anyways... that my two cents in power tailgate. I hope to never have to get a truck with them... I’d feel like a wussy.


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## begreen (Aug 4, 2019)

The automakers are milking a cash cow. In this case GM is trying to one-up Ford which innovated a built-in step in the tailgate. It does seem like a step too far. That was not necessary with old pickups because the bed was so much lower.  I can't reach over the siderails of a modern 4x4 and grab something from the bed. Used to be able to do that fairly easily in an old pickup. Having had both step and no-step I definitely appreciated the step on the F150. As a geezer with sore knees, it really helps. The Ford step is manual, simple and rugged. GM has taken it to a whole nuther level of complexity. I question the need for the greater complexity and bet that tailgate now weighs a ton which is no fun if it needs to be removed for a camper. And I wonder how well that step will work after years of hauling and fills up with dirt, wood bark, etc..


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## johneh (Aug 4, 2019)

The price of a new full load truck is more than I paid for my Farm 40 years ago 
The farm cost 41 thousand Dollars in 1979 and I figured I paid to much 
My 94 GMC is just fine


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## brenndatomu (Aug 4, 2019)

begreen said:


> I question the need for the greater complexity and bet that tailgate now weighs a ton which is no fun if it needs to be removed for a camper. And I wonder how well that step will work after years of hauling and fills up with dirt, wood bark, etc..


Power open/close is next, you know it is.
Heck I hate even the power locking tailgate on our 2018 F250 at work...you pull up, jump out and go to open the gate but it is locked, so you have to run back up front and hit the lock button! Argh!
When I first saw GMs new tailgate the first thing I thought was "bet that will work good after a couple years on a farm or construction site"!  How many old school gates have you seen bowed into a "smile"
 (like Amazon's logo 
	

		
			
		

		
	




	

		
			
		

		
	
)  when the gate is down...and still basically accomplishes its life's purpose!


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## WiscWoody (Aug 4, 2019)

brenndatomu said:


> Power open/close is next, you know it is.
> Heck I hate even the power locking tailgate on our 2018 F250 at work...you pull up, jump out and go to open the gate but it is locked, so you have to run back up front and hit the lock button! Argh!
> When I first saw GMs new tailgate the first thing I thought was "bet that will work good after a couple years on a farm or construction site"!  How many old school gates have you seen bowed into a "smile"
> (like Amazon's logo
> ...


That’s my main gripe is that Chevy and I imagine GMC have power open and close tailgates now. I’m not sure when they added them or if it’s a option or standard equipment.


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## WiscWoody (Aug 4, 2019)

brenndatomu said:


> Power open/close is next, you know it is.
> Heck I hate even the power locking tailgate on our 2018 F250 at work...you pull up, jump out and go to open the gate but it is locked, so you have to run back up front and hit the lock button! Argh!
> When I first saw GMs new tailgate the first thing I thought was "bet that will work good after a couple years on a farm or construction site"!  How many old school gates have you seen bowed into a "smile"
> (like Amazon's logo
> ...


My ‘78 F-150’s tailgate has a bit of a bow to it from things slamming into it. It opens and closes just fine though.


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## WiscWoody (Aug 4, 2019)

begreen said:


> The automakers are milking a cash cow. In this case GM is trying to one-up Ford which innovated a built-in step in the tailgate. It does seem like a step too far. That was not necessary with old pickups because the bed was so much lower.  I can't reach over the siderails of a modern 4x4 and grab something from the bed. Used to be able to do that fairly easily in an old pickup. Having had both step and no-step I definitely appreciated the step on the F150. As a geezer with sore knees, it really helps. The Ford step is manual, simple and rugged. GM has taken it to a whole nuther level of complexity. I question the need for the greater complexity and bet that tailgate now weighs a ton which is no fun if it needs to be removed for a camper. And I wonder how well that step will work after years of hauling and fills up with dirt, wood bark, etc..


Yes a step is a good thing. I’ve found with the height of my Super Duties and my age plus some extra pounds that I can’t jump up on a tailgate like I could years ago so I added Amp Research (like the one in the photo) fold down steps on the two of my higher 4X4 trucks. The old ‘78 Ford is a lower 2wd and I can manage getting up in that truck bed yet.


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## brenndatomu (Aug 4, 2019)

WiscWoody said:


> View attachment 246172
> 
> Yes a step is a good thing. I’ve found with the height of my Super Duties and my age plus some extra pounds that I can’t jump up on a tailgate like I could years ago so I added Amp Research (like the one in the photo) fold down steps on the two of my higher 4X4 trucks. The old ‘78 Ford is a lower 2wd and I can manage getting up in that truck bed yet.


Does that attach to the bumper? Wait until they start making truck bumpers of plastic like cars are now...


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## EatenByLimestone (Aug 4, 2019)

I tend to agree with you, but people keep buying the new trucks at the higher prices.  Auto makers will continue to make them as long as people buy them.

I think you can still buy stripped down trucks, if you order them.  They arent as stripped down as they were in '78 though.


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## begreen (Aug 4, 2019)

Yes, most dealer still have base models sold as "work trucks". Single-cab, 2WD, with a mid-sized motor.


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## WiscWoody (Aug 4, 2019)

brenndatomu said:


> Does that attach to the bumper? Wait until they start making truck bumpers of plastic like cars are now...


It attaches to the frame where the bumper attaches to it with new bolts and nuts from Amp Research. The step can take up to 300lbs.


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## bholler (Aug 4, 2019)

Yes you can still get pretty basic work trucks.  We just got one used without many extras. It has power windows and locks air and bluetooth but not many other luxuries.  It still wasnt cheap though.  But it is 3/4 ton 4x4 with the big v8 and a locking rear diff


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## brenndatomu (Aug 4, 2019)

What would the lumbersexuals drive if they didn't make these power everything foo foo trucks?!


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## bholler (Aug 4, 2019)

I will say i hate that they have decided all trucks now need to be 6" taller than they used to be.  I have a truck for work all that extra height means to me is that i have to lift stuff higher.


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## brenndatomu (Aug 4, 2019)

Its funny, these new 4x4s are WAY taller than the old mid seventies F250 "highboy" that I thought was so huge as a kid 
The 2018 F250 at work that I mentioned before has a 30" high floor board...bone stock...that's 4" taller than the exact same truck in 2011!


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## bholler (Aug 4, 2019)

brenndatomu said:


> Its funny, these new 4x4s are WAY taller than the old mid seventies F250 "highboy" that I thought was so huge as a kid
> The 2018 F250 at work that I mentioned before has a 30" high floor board...bone stock...that's 4" taller than the exact same truck in 2011!


Look at the rear.  It has a 4" lift block.  Ours is a 17.  I wish the front was the ssme i would just pull the blocks


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## brenndatomu (Aug 5, 2019)

bholler said:


> Look at the rear.  It has a 4" lift block.  Ours is a 17.  I wish the front was the ssme i would just pull the blocks


Yeah the 2011 has the same block as the 18...same plow prep pack, same options, same size tires, but floorboard 4" taller...we had to add steps to it because nobody could get in it!


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## bholler (Aug 5, 2019)

brenndatomu said:


> Yeah the 2011 has the same block as the 18...same plow prep pack, same options, same size tires, but floorboard 4" taller...we had to add steps to it because nobody could get in it!


Ours has running boards so getting in the cab is no big deal.  The bed is a pita though.


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## WiscWoody (Aug 5, 2019)

bholler said:


> Ours has running boards so getting in the cab is no big deal.  The bed is a pita though.


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## WiscWoody (Aug 5, 2019)

I will have to say that the automakers have done well with the truck engines for power and fuel economy. In Fords case some of the fuel economy can be attributed to the aluminum body as well. I’ve heard they both Chevy and Ford owners are getting 27-28 mpg in highway driving nowadays. That’s incredible for a full sized truck. My old ‘78 with its 300/6 only gets 10.5 mpg pulling my lawn care trailer in the summer. That’s what I use it for exclusively. I only put around 2600 miles a year on it though and it sits all winter long in the shed. I really don’t drive my other trucks a lot either since I have a fuel sipping Toyota Echo I do my daily driving in. Oh and for the diesel trucks the amount of torque they have from the factory is impressive indeed.


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## bholler (Aug 5, 2019)

WiscWoody said:


> View attachment 246184


That would help getting into the bed.  But loading tickets of brick or rubber still means lifting higher.  And our running board are only on the van do you cant reach over the side of the bed to the floor


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## bholler (Aug 5, 2019)

WiscWoody said:


> I will have to say that the automakers have done well with the truck engines for power and fuel economy. In Fords case some of the fuel economy can be attributed to the aluminum body as well. I’ve heard they both Chevy and Ford owners are getting 27-28 mpg in highway driving nowadays. That’s incredible for a full sized truck. My old ‘78 with its 300/6 only gets 10.5 mpg pulling my lawn care trailer in the summer. That’s what I use it for exclusively. I only put around 2600 miles a year in it though and it sits all winter long in the shed. I really don’t drive my other trucks a lot either since I have a fuel sipping Toyota Echo I do my daily driving in. Oh and for the diesel trucks the amount of torque they have from the factory is impressive indeed.


Yeah they have done allot with the 1/2ton tricks.  Not to much with 3/4ton one.  We are averaging in the 11s


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## Ashful (Aug 5, 2019)

bholler said:


> I will say i hate that they have decided all trucks now need to be 6" taller than they used to be.  I have a truck for work all that extra height means to me is that i have to lift stuff higher.


“They” didn’t decide.  New truck customers made that decision for them.  Millions (plural) of dollars in market research goes into every such decision, they are only building what new truck customers are requesting, or at least their best interpretation of it.

The trouble is that, as evidenced by the tens of thousands of insanely well-appointed trucks available off 2-year lease at any time, the majority of new truck buyers have chit for brains.  And they’re the ones dictating the trends!


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## WiscWoody (Aug 5, 2019)

bholler said:


> That would help getting into the bed.  But loading tickets of brick or rubber still means lifting higher.  And our running board are only on the van do you cant reach over the side of the bed to the floor


Maybe this would help, Amp Research also makes fold down steps for the bedsides.


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## WiscWoody (Aug 5, 2019)

Ashful said:


> “They” didn’t decide.  New truck customers made that decision for them.  Millions (plural) of dollars in market research goes into every such decision, they are only building what new truck customers are requesting, or at least their best interpretation of it.
> 
> The trouble is that, as evidenced by the tens of thousands of insanely well-appointed trucks available off 2-year lease at any time, the majority of new truck buyers have chit for brains.  And they’re the ones dictating the trends!


Right, I think the truck makers seen many 4x4 drivers- those that spend a lot on their trucks like to have them lifted. Personally I would never put a lift on my two 4x4’s as I’m not a off-roader and at first I thought maybe my ‘03 SD has a 2-4" lift on it when I got it but it’s just high as it is from the factory.


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## blades (Aug 5, 2019)

I thought my 99 F350 4x4 was tall- it was a good 4-6" lower than whats out now and it had blocks from the factory to get it where it was. My 04 F250 is a little taller than that f350 was no blocks.


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## begreen (Aug 5, 2019)

bholler said:


> I will say i hate that they have decided all trucks now need to be 6" taller than they used to be.  I have a truck for work all that extra height means to me is that i have to lift stuff higher.


My complaint too.



bholler said:


> That would help getting into the bed.  But loading tickets of brick or rubber still means lifting higher.  And our running board are only on the van do you cant reach over the side of the bed to the floor


My truck had running boards too. Still, I had to stand on the rear tire in order to reach into rear bed from the side. That gets old quickly.


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## Ashful (Aug 5, 2019)

I don’t think I ever had a truck much different in height than what is made today.  Back when trucks were made lower, I was in my teens and 20’s, and I was the one lifting them.  [emoji3]

I do have to admit that climbing in and out of the bed, especially when unloading saws and other gear after a long hot day of summer cutting, isn’t getting easier with age.  Can’t imagine what I’ll do when I’m as old as begreen and bholler.  [emoji14]


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## begreen (Aug 5, 2019)

Go back a couple decades and the tires were 16" IIRC, not the 19&20" tires standard today. My previous truck was 2WD and had lower ground clearance too.


Ashful said:


> Can’t imagine what I’ll do when I’m as old as begreen and bholler.


You'll probably be asking your kids for help getting on the vr wifi-com.


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## bholler (Aug 5, 2019)

Ashful said:


> I don’t think I ever had a truck much different in height than what is made today.  Back when trucks were made lower, I was in my teens and 20’s, and I was the one lifting them.  [emoji3]
> 
> I do have to admit that climbing in and out of the bed, especially when unloading saws and other gear after a long hot day of summer cutting, isn’t getting easier with age.  Can’t imagine what I’ll do when I’m as old as begreen and bholler.  [emoji14]


Lol you do realize i am only 39 right


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## begreen (Aug 5, 2019)

bholler said:


> Lol you do realize i am only 39 right


That was Jack Benny's line too, you young whippersnapper.


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## Ashful (Aug 5, 2019)

bholler said:


> Lol you do realize i am only 39 right



If that were true, you’d be younger than me... but I don’t believe it!


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 5, 2019)

begreen said:


> Yes, most dealer still have base models sold as "work trucks". Single-cab, 2WD, with a mid-sized motor.


My 2015 is designated as a work truck but has a lot of options,plus its 4WD. So many options,a new one prices out at $39,600, and thats for a Single Cab.


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## Ashful (Aug 5, 2019)

A guy I know at work drives a 50-year old Ford F100.  It’s got a certain panache, and I think it’d be fun to drive on occasion.  But then we get those semi-frequent weeks of zero-degree mornings in January, and I remember my heated seats, remote start, coil-assisted defroster and heated steering wheel, and I’m thankful it’s not 1970 anymore.


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## brenndatomu (Aug 5, 2019)

Ashful said:


> I remember my heated seats, remote start, coil-assisted defroster and heated steering wheel


Yup, you've already gone soft...does that thing wipe your nose too?!


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## begreen (Aug 5, 2019)

I noticed this trend starting 15-20 yrs ago. Now may urban truckees call their trucks their cars and expect them to have all the cushy comforts of them too. I like power windows because it's a long reach to the passenger side window, but that and a good radio will usually suffice. What I don't like is when they add a computer and so much crap on the truck that the battery wears down if the truck is not driven for 3-4 weeks.


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## brenndatomu (Aug 5, 2019)

begreen said:


> I like power windows because it's a long reach to the passenger side window, but that and a good radio will usually suffice.


When I ordered my last work truck I screwed up and didn't get power windows...because I can reach the passenger side window just fine...or used to. The Ford Superdutys are a bit wider than the 150 I had before, and after I got the new 250 I realized it was almost too far to reach...fingertips only, a real PITA. I would be happy with just a power passenger side window only like some semi tractors have.
Looking back on it I should have just ordered an XLT package with carpet delete (rubber mat)


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 5, 2019)

begreen said:


> I noticed this trend starting 15-20 yrs ago. Now may urban truckees call their trucks their cars and expect them to have all the cushy comforts of them too..


Last actual car i had i can hardly remember. Was probably a Corvette. Had a lot of cars in the last 45yrs but, been mostly in trucks since the 80s.  My truck IS my car, so i want all the bells and whistles.


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## Ashful (Aug 5, 2019)

begreen said:


> I I like power windows because it's a long reach to the passenger side window, but that and a good radio will usually suffice.


We get at least a week or three of single-digit temps, often a week below zero degF, and we need to scrape windows almost every morning in winter.  So I’d gladly give up your power windows or nice radio for remote start, any day.    I’m sure this sounds wussy to those from Alaska it Minnesota, but 0F is just stupid cold, with the sort of wind we always get with it. 



Seasoned Oak said:


> Last actual car i had i can hardly remember. Was probably a Corvette. Had a lot of cars in the last 45yrs but, been mostly in trucks since the 80s.  My truck IS my car, so i want all the bells and whistles.


My truck is my truck, dedicated to pulling trailers and bad weather... but I still want heated seats and remote start. [emoji41]  Ironically, my car is better equipped for cold, but that lives in a heated garage when the weather gets ugly.


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## WiscWoody (Aug 5, 2019)

Ashful said:


> A guy I know at work drives a 50-year old Ford F100.  It’s got a certain panache, and I think it’d be fun to drive on occasion.  But then we get those semi-frequent weeks of zero-degree mornings in January, and I remember my heated seats, remote start, coil-assisted defroster and heated steering wheel, and I’m thankful it’s not 1970 anymore.


I like driving my 78 F-150. It’s the Custom model meaning it was the base with the 300/6 engine and a Borg Warner T-18 granny gear 4 speed that you usually start out in 2nd gear with. And it’s only driven in the summer months but I don’t have heated anything in my other trucks other than a heater. It’d be nice to have AC in the old truck on some humid days but it has all kinds of the old time vents in it including vent windows and vents on the floor with the levers to shut them when it gets cold. Wisconsin is very lenient with their collector plates with the only stipulation being not to drive the vehicle in January and your not supposed to carry more than 500lbs in the bed of a truck but here in the sticks I doubt anyone has been ticketed for too much weight.


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## bholler (Aug 5, 2019)

WiscWoody said:


> I like driving my 78 F-150. It’s the Custom model meaning it was the base with the 300/6 engine and a Borg Warner T-18 granny gear 4 speed that you usually start out in 2nd gear with. And it’s only driven in the summer month but I don’t have heated anything in my other trucks other than a heater. It’d be nice to have AC in the old truck on some humid days but it has all kinds of the old time vents in it including vent windows and vents on the floor with the levers to shut them when it gets cold. Wisconsin is very lenient with their collector plates with the only stipulation being not to drive the vehicle in January and your not supposed to carry more than 500lbs in the bed of a truck but here in the sticks I doubt anyone has been ticketed for itoo much weight.


Yeah I have never heard of anyone getting ticketed for carrying cargo in a classic truck.  Which yes with classic or antique plates in PA no cargo at all in the bed.  But if you get in an accident with classic plates and cargo in the bed good luck getting insurance to cover anything.


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## Highbeam (Aug 6, 2019)

I lowered my 2000 f350 to f250 height by swapping the lift blocks in the rear end. That 2” of bed height really makes a difference for loading the bed. 

As trucks have gotten taller so have the hitches. My newer rv trailer hitch is so tall that I need one of those crazy tall drop hitches flipped over to get the ball high enough to tow level.


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## bholler (Aug 6, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> I lowered my 2000 f350 to f250 height by swapping the lift blocks in the rear end. That 2” of bed height really makes a difference for loading the bed.
> 
> As trucks have gotten taller so have the hitches. My newer rv trailer hitch is so tall that I need one of those crazy tall drop hitches flipped over to get the ball high enough to tow level.


I wish I could just pull the blocks.  That would be fine for the back but can't do it for the front


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## Ashful (Aug 6, 2019)

WiscWoody said:


> I like driving my 78 F-150. It’s the Custom model meaning it was the base with the 300/6 engine and a Borg Warner T-18 granny gear 4 speed that you usually start out in 2nd gear with. And it’s only driven in the summer months but I don’t have heated anything in my other trucks other than a heater. It’d be nice to have AC in the old truck on some humid days but it has all kinds of the old time vents in it including vent windows and vents on the floor with the levers to shut them when it gets cold. Wisconsin is very lenient with their collector plates with the only stipulation being not to drive the vehicle in January and your not supposed to carry more than 500lbs in the bed of a truck but here in the sticks I doubt anyone has been ticketed for too much weight.



I used to drive a buddy’s F150 Custom frequently in high school, I think it was a very early 1980’s model, maybe 1980.  Same 4 on the floor with Granny low, but I think his had a 302 V8.  Very classy looking stepside bed with steel battens over wood floor.  Cool little truck, we had a lot of fun with it.


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## peakbagger (Aug 6, 2019)

There is definitely a trade off on lift height when an vehicle is set up for 2 tons and plenty of ground clearance. Unloaded the lift height is 4 foot 6". Then again its rated for 3.6' feet fording depth so they set it up to keep the cargo dry .

I do like the steps on the tailgate, still a bit of climb up I am going to rig fold down stair on the tailgate one of these days that attaches inside.

Its a 1990 and zero electronics or computers. Folks get extra points for noticing the wheel centers versus the differential height.


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## Ashful (Aug 6, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> I lowered my 2000 f350 to f250 height by swapping the lift blocks in the rear end. That 2” of bed height really makes a difference for loading the bed.
> 
> As trucks have gotten taller so have the hitches. My newer rv trailer hitch is so tall that I need one of those crazy tall drop hitches flipped over to get the ball high enough to tow level.



Isn’t all of that height figured into the suspension travel and axle geometry, when figuring the GVWR?  Not to oversimplify it, I am sure there are many other factors, but wouldn’t lowering an F350 to F250 height reduce it’s GVWR toward that of the F250?


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## Ashful (Aug 6, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> Its a 1990 and zero electronics or computers.
> 
> View attachment 246235



... and skinny tires, @SpaceBus.


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## bholler (Aug 6, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Isn’t all of that height figured into the suspension travel and axle geometry, when figuring the GVWR?  Not to oversimplify it, I am sure there are many other factors, but wouldn’t lowering an F350 to F250 height reduce it’s GVWR toward that of the F250?


No


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## Highbeam (Aug 6, 2019)

bholler said:


> I wish I could just pull the blocks.  That would be fine for the back but can't do it for the front



At least on my f350, the factory put a big "rake" in the trucks (butt high like a grasshoper) so that when loaded down heavy it looks level. You often see folks adding "leveling kits" to their trucks to fix this rake which raises the front to match the high butt. I did the oppositeand lowered the rear to match the front. I think it looks really nice and helps make it more useful. I also added torklift overload bumpers to the rear suspension that engage the overload springs earlier so that it doesn't sag as deep when loaded heavy.


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## Highbeam (Aug 6, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Isn’t all of that height figured into the suspension travel and axle geometry, when figuring the GVWR?  Not to oversimplify it, I am sure there are many other factors, but wouldn’t lowering an F350 to F250 height reduce it’s GVWR toward that of the F250?



I'm going to say no. The only difference between this part of the F250 and the F350 in these years is the door sticker giving my 1000 more lbs of cargo and these lift blocks. Even the shocks are the same part number even though they ride more compressed now. The Ford F250 blocks are shorter and have the wedge shape to correct the pinoin angle. Effectively, all I've done is raise the axle 2" closer to the leaf pack. The suspension still compresses the same amount with the same load and the max travel snubbers are built into the block. And yes, I even bought brand new u-bolts since they are supposedly torque to yield. This block swap dropped the ball about 2.5". Had to aim the headlights lower.


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## SpaceBus (Aug 6, 2019)

Ashful said:


> ... and skinny tires, @SpaceBus.


They have their place. I generally prefer skinny tires on trucks, cars are a different story.


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## Ashful (Aug 6, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> They have their place. I generally prefer skinny tires on trucks, cars are a different story.



Hell yeah.  I’m running 275/40ZR20 on the sport sedan.  [emoji14]


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## WiscWoody (Aug 6, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> They have their place. I generally prefer skinny tires on trucks, cars are a different story.


They say they are better in deep snow. I like how the box sides drop down to make the truck into a flat bed. When I worked for the schools in the twin cities we had a landscape type dump truck like that. Not a big dump truck... you know.


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## SpaceBus (Aug 6, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Hell yeah.  I’m running 275/40ZR20 on the sport sedan.  [emoji14]



I ran 295's on my Mustang and Challenger (275 front on the Challenger, 295 square on the Mustang). We put race tires (200 TW street class tires) on the Mustang a few summers back with the intent on racing it, but my wife ended up driving it to work all summer. She said she had never enjoyed tires so much before.


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## EatenByLimestone (Aug 6, 2019)

I've been baffled for years on how and why truck tires keep getting wider.   Given CAFE standards, I'd have figured that skinny tires and the small contact patch would reign supreme.  Less rolling resistance would help fuel economy numbers.


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## Ashful (Aug 6, 2019)

EatenByLimestone said:


> I've been baffled for years on how and why truck tires keep getting wider.   Given CAFE standards, I'd have figured that skinny tires and the small contact patch would reign supreme.  Less rolling resistance would help fuel economy numbers.


When kept near the midpoint of the tire load rating, contact patch is mostly dictated by the tire pressure, with width and diameter only causing this to vary slightly due to sidewall strength.  As you approach the maximum load rating of the tire, the wider tire will have a larger contact patch than the skinny, but only by a fraction of their difference in width (eg. 11% more contact patch for 28% wider tire).  There's a very interesting discussion on the topic, here:  https://www.enginebasics.com/Chassis Tuning/Tire Contact Patch.html

As to why they keep getting wider, I think it's for the same reason trucks keep getting bigger and taller and more shiny bling:  It's what their market research shows customers want.  They look tougher rolling down Main Street on cruise night, or picking up groceries at the Publix.


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## SpaceBus (Aug 7, 2019)

EatenByLimestone said:


> I've been baffled for years on how and why truck tires keep getting wider.   Given CAFE standards, I'd have figured that skinny tires and the small contact patch would reign supreme.  Less rolling resistance would help fuel economy numbers.


Contact patch is the same, but yes wider tires have more resistance.


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## SpaceBus (Aug 7, 2019)

Ashful said:


> When kept near the midpoint of the tire load rating, contact patch is mostly dictated by the tire pressure, with width and diameter only causing this to vary slightly due to sidewall strength.  As you approach the maximum load rating of the tire, the wider tire will have a larger contact patch than the skinny, but only by a fraction of their difference in width (eg. 11% more contact patch for 28% wider tire).  There's a very interesting discussion on the topic, here:  https://www.enginebasics.com/Chassis Tuning/Tire Contact Patch.html
> 
> As to why they keep getting wider, I think it's for the same reason trucks keep getting bigger and taller and more shiny bling:  It's what their market research shows customers want.  They look tougher rolling down Main Street on cruise night, or picking up groceries at the Publix.



Great post on tire width. It's just kind of pedantic to say that the contact patch doesn't change much, even though that's what I tell people. I'm just a automotive and tire nerd. Cars just keep getting weirder. Some things I like and others I don't, but I guess that's the way it always is.


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## Ashful (Aug 7, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> Great post on tire width. It's just kind of pedantic to say that the contact patch doesn't change much, even though that's what I tell people. I'm just a automotive and tire nerd. Cars just keep getting weirder. Some things I like and others I don't, but I guess that's the way it always is.



I think if you only consider the first-order effect, your statement is 100% correct.  If tires were just a balloon or inner tube, then patch area is dependent only on tire PSI.  Or in other words, vehicle weight in pounds divided by tire pressure in psi = patch area in sq.in.  In that scenario, tire width or height has no bearing on it.

But the reality is that tires have strong side walls, shoulders, steel belting, and so many other complicating “secondary factors”.  Some of these secondary factors are so dominant, especially on something like an LT tire with 10-ply rating under a half-ton pickup, that they invalidate this old theory.

I like the way you think, though.  I tend to work the same, things need to agree with physics... at least on the first-order principles.

For the folks not into physics, tire patch will be wider and shorter on a wide tire, or longer and narrower on a skinny tire.  But to a general approximation, roughly similar net area, when your vehicle load is close to the 50% rating of the tire.  From the limited data in the article I linked, this seems to be roughly the load range where those secondary effects neutralize.


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## WiscWoody (Aug 9, 2019)

One thing I’d like to have that many of the newer trucks have is a backup camera for lining up the trailer balls to the hitch. The other day I was hooking up the skid trailer and I must have gotten in and out of the truck 6 times since you aren’t going to be able to get the truck close then move the heavy loaded trailer a bit to line it up right. Maybe someday I’ll put one on a truck.


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## Ashful (Aug 9, 2019)

WiscWoody said:


> One thing I’d like to have that many of the newer trucks have is a backup camera for lining up the trailer balls to the hitch. The other day I was hooking up the skid trailer and I must have gotten in and out of the truck 6 times since you aren’t going to be able to get the truck close then move the heavy loaded trailer a bit to line it up right. Maybe someday I’ll put one on a truck.



Between boating and moving firewood, I have as many as three different trailers on my truck in any given weekend.  At least one of them (firewood) is too heavy to move to the ball by hand, you just need to nail the alignment when backing up to it.

That camera has been a godsend, since prior to it, I always had to find a helper or do that 6x thing like you.  Now I have a camera in the top edge of the tailgate, which points straight down at the ball, so I can get it right under the trailer coupling, every time.

These things also help if you have kids in the house.  Mine are trained to keep their unused bikes out of the driveway, but most houses with kids seem to have at least a few incidents of mom or dad backing cars over a few bicycles.


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## brenndatomu (Aug 9, 2019)

Never tired one, but the aftermarket backup camera systems aren't very expensive...


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## begreen (Aug 9, 2019)

I'm sold too on backup cameras. They are a godsend, especially with a camper on back of the truck. Our local shopping area parking lot gets busy on the weekends and people walk around there with their heads in space (or on their phone). More than once a rear camera has helped me avoid hitting some space case. The Volt is silent and folks don't pay attention to moving objects it seems.


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## WiscWoody (Aug 9, 2019)

begreen said:


> I'm sold too on backup cameras. They are a godsend, especially with a camper on back of the truck. Our local shopping area parking lot gets busy on the weekends and people walk around there with their heads in space (or on their phone). More than once a rear camera has helped me avoid hitting some space case. The Volt is silent and folks don't pay attention to moving objects it seems.


Sure! People are used to hearing a vehicle so that’s part of their warning to them to be careful. I had heard that someone was going to make them put a running car sound on electric cars. I thought it was kind of dumb but maybe not? Someday I might  buy a backup camera to put on the truck I pull the big heavy equipment trailer with. A few weeks ago when I was hooking up to go to a storm blowdown area down the road I was cussing a bit lol. I couldn’t get the ball to line up for nothing because I was in a hurry I guess. I think I’ll get a dash cam first though. I recently had a incident where I was in the middle of a domestic fight and chase on a highway and it would have been good to have it on video when the lady ran a stop sign and cut me off then her boyfriend chasing her down on video as well as the kid a week later that was Texting I’m sure nearly hitting me head-on on a town road. Oh, and the blowdown area didn’t produce much for good firewood, most of the trees that went down were white pine, poplar and basswood and I didn’t bother to take anything home. We didn’t have power for two days from the storm so I got to use the generator for awhile.


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## Ashful (Aug 9, 2019)

begreen said:


> The Volt is silent and folks don't pay attention to moving objects it seems.


Funny, I never seem to have that problem.  [emoji14]


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## WiscWoody (Aug 9, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Funny, I never seem to have that problem.  [emoji14]



Was it you that outran the police helicopter then?


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## begreen (Aug 9, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Funny, I never seem to have that problem.  [emoji14]



 For sure. Though maybe a problem passing the gas pump. Somewhat a novelty with the Volt.


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## WiscWoody (Aug 9, 2019)

begreen said:


> For sure. Though maybe a problem passing the gas pump. Somewhat a novelty with the Volt.


My sister in California bought a new plugin Prius in April and she still has half a tank of gas in it so I guess she hasn’t taken any trips with it, just back and forth to the hospital she works at and a little driving around Sac.


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## Ashful (Aug 9, 2019)

begreen said:


> For sure. Though maybe a problem passing the gas pump. Somewhat a novelty with the Volt.



You got me beat, there.  But I never lose my car in a parking lot, just hit the remote start and keep your ears open.

It will only be a short time until the only ICE cars on the road are all nostalgia-based, either true antiques or modern sports and muscle cars with retro styling.


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## begreen (Aug 9, 2019)

LOL, very true. When I was commuting I would start up the Volt about 5 minutes before the bus arrived at the park and ride lot. It was dead silent, but comfy.   Make a good recording of the Hellcat. Hook it up to your 2025 Dodge electric so that you can find it in the parking lot with the remote start.


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## SpaceBus (Aug 10, 2019)

Ashful said:


> You got me beat, there.  But I never lose my car in a parking lot, just hit the remote start and keep your ears open.
> 
> It will only be a short time until the only ICE cars on the road are all nostalgia-based, either true antiques or modern sports and muscle cars with retro styling.



Yep, just look at horses. Now they are an expensive luxury.


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## Ashful (Aug 10, 2019)

begreen said:


> Make a good recording of the Hellcat. Hook it up to your 2025 Dodge electric so that you can find it in the parking lot with the remote start.



Not a truck, but I’m going to be forced to replace my wife’s sports wagon soon.  I wish there were better options for a AWD sports wagon EV, but I’m not seeing them.

Trucks are another area where we need some better EV options, and without the same $20k premium we seem to be seeing on EV cars, even after taxpayer contribution.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 10, 2019)

Ashful said:


> You got me beat, there.  But I never lose my car in a parking lot, just hit the remote start and keep your ears open.
> .


The new SS Camaros have a selectable sound option. Loud as hell or relatively quiet. Some kind of Exhaust bypass i think. Along with remote start. Nice option. The dealer did just that we we test drove it. Hit the remote start and listen for it.  Probably not available on the non SS 4 and 6Cyl.


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## SpaceBus (Aug 10, 2019)

Seasoned Oak said:


> The new SS Camaros have a selectable sound option. Load as hell or relatively quiet. Some kind of Exhaust bypass i think. Along with remote start. Nice option. The dealer did just that we we test drove it. Hit the remote start and listen for it.  Probably not available on the non SS 4 and 6Cyl.



The Japanese pioneered this in the 90's and were followed by Europe, now American cars have finally caught on. I'd like a system like that on both of our vehicles.


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## Ashful (Aug 10, 2019)

Seasoned Oak said:


> The new SS Camaros have a selectable sound option. Load as hell or relatively quiet. Some kind of Exhaust bypass i think. Along with remote start. Nice option. The dealer did just that we we test drove it. Hit the remote start and listen for it.  Probably not available on the non SS 4 and 6Cyl.



Mine has exhaust valves, and I suspect yours may be the same, that’s one of the more recent techs used to expand the power and torque curve.  Basic theory in a few sentences, is that you need free-flowing exhaust to build big hp, because that can only happen at high rpm, when the engine needs to move a large amount of air volume.  But those free-flowing exhaust systems rob you of all your low-end torque, and most of your street driving is at these lower rpms.  The latest solution is to install exhaust valves, which close down at low rpm, and open wide as the motor spools up.  This allows big hp at the track, without sacrificing street torque, and also keeps the noise at a relatively acceptable level on the street.

This is why those videos are labeled “cold start” or “warm start”, the car only opens the valves wide to start when the car is cold.  Starting my car will shake the house and scare the crap out of my kids, when it is cold in the winter.  It is simply ear-splitting loud when cold.  In the summer, not so much. It’s all in the exhaust valve programming.


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## SpaceBus (Aug 10, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Mine has exhaust valves, and I suspect yours may be the same, that’s one of the more recent techs used to expand the power and torque curve.  Basic theory in a few sentences, is that you need free-flowing exhaust to build big hp, because that can only happen at high rpm, when the engine needs to move a large amount of air volume.  But those free-flowing exhaust systems rob you of all your low-end torque, and most of your street driving is at these lower rpms.  The latest solution is to install exhaust valves, which close down at low rpm, and open wide as the motor spools up.  This allows big hp at the track, without sacrificing street torque, and also keeps the noise at a relatively acceptable level on the street.
> 
> This is why those videos are labeled “cold start” or “warm start”, the car only opens the valves wide to start when the car is cold.  Starting my car will shake the house and scare the crap out of my kids, when it is cold in the winter.  It is simply ear-splitting loud when cold.  In the summer, not so much. It’s all in the exhaust valve programming.



Free flowing exhaust doesn't rob you of torque, that's a primary exhaust runner length and diameter function followed by intake runner lengh and diameter. The exhaust valve you refer to is a volume button on a modern car. My wife's car has no mufflers, but so long as you don't sacrifice any volume, a muffler wouldn't decrease the power. Generally by the time the exhaust has made it to the muffler it has lost a ton of energy and the muffler is no longer a restriction. My Challenger gained no power from the Corsa exhaust, but it sounded amazing and didn't drone on the freeway. The Kooks custom long tube headers are what made the power, at the loss of a bit of low end torque. 

Most cars come from the factory with extremely short exhaust runners, if any at all (cast in manifolds). Some cars even come with tubular manifolds, but those are almost always quite short as well. These short runners make loads of torque, but cripple top end HP. Going with long runners won't kill your bottom end torque entirely and the gain in top end power is well worth it. Generally long runners on either side of the engine are expensive, difficult to package, and difficult to mass produce and that's why you don't see them in the vast majority of production engines.


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## festerw (Aug 11, 2019)

brenndatomu said:


> Never tired one, but the aftermarket backup camera systems aren't very expensive...



I put one on my Tundra, works very well.
AUTO-VOX Dual Video Inputs 4.3"
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00J863EI2/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_CPusBbZ3GVDRN


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