# Bolt No ICE



## jebatty (Feb 6, 2018)

Made the big move yesterday. Our new Chevy Bolt LT, well equipped, will be delivered later this week or early next week. We tried to locate one in December, no success. My wife wanted the red Bolt, which was especially difficult to find. And when I found one a few days ago at a nearby Chevy dealer, we made the quick decision, and now we will have the red Bolt and be a participant in the future rather than a spectator.

The Bolt when charged at our home will further move our household to nearly 100% fossil carbon free on energy usage. All of our household electricity already is from our net metered solar PV, and we have excess PV solar to "fuel" the Bolt. Our heating is from wood harvested from our sustainably managed wood lands. Our two cars and small engines are the only fossil carbon energy consumers in the household, and the Bolt should cut that fossil carbon by about 50%.

The 238 mile range of the Bolt should cover nearly 100% of our local driving, leaving the ICE car for road trips or trips when the Bolt is in use by the other of us. We will keep our '97 Camry, just shy of 200,000 miles, as there may be times when my wife and I are both heading on 200+ mile trips in divergent directions, and the '07 has a trailer hitch to pull our small tear drop camper trailer. We will keep our '11 Toyota, 100,000+ miles, for long road trips. Experience will tell whether it makes any sense to continue to keep two ICE cars.


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## begreen (Feb 6, 2018)

Congratulations. That's exciting. I look forward to hearing your impressions. Did you decide to purchase or lease?


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## jebatty (Feb 6, 2018)

We went with a purchase. The range is sufficient for the great majority of our local driving, leaving long distance road trips, often with our two dogs, to the ICE car, an '11 Toyota. My thought is that we will keep this for the long haul, and in a few years a much longer range BEV will be available and allow us to retire the ICE completely. With the Bolt, we are one big step closer to being 100% fossil carbon free for our household energy consumption, leaving only the ICE car and small engines. 

We also are keeping my '07 Camry, trailer hitch equipped, for road trips when we pull our small tear drop camper trailer. The '07 is just a hair short of 200,000 miles and has little trade-in or used car value, but still many miles of life.


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## woodgeek (Feb 7, 2018)

w00t!

We got our red Bolt LT 'Fiona' the day before Thanksgiving, and now have close to 4000 miles.

Our only Bolt complaints so far .....

--The name.  Everyone goes 'Oh, a Volt'. Nope.  They should have called it 'the Chevy Leroy', or the 'Chevy Compliance 3000'.  Either would have been better.
--The front seats.   They are a 'new design' that is like a slab of foam over a spring hammock.  With hard metal rails on the edges.  That dig into your thighs since they are 2" narrower than a normal seat. And have protruding vertical bolts under the foam. Think car seat by Marquis de Sade.  There are DIY fixes...either get a padded seat cover off Amazon (which blocks the seat heater, and needs a slit for the side airbag)...or there are youtube videos for tearing down the seat, adding foam padding and restoring it.  I will do the latter soon.  T'ain't easy being green.

FYI, my 600 mile (round trip) NewEngland winter/blizzard road trip went uneventfully.  With MIchelin X-ICE3's its a monster in the snow and ice.


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## semipro (Feb 7, 2018)

Admiration and some envy on my part. 
I'm looking forward to the release of a decent EV pickup truck.  With all the energy-related upgrades we're doing on the house I"m always hauling stuff.


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## jebatty (Feb 7, 2018)

Complaints noted. Hopefully my smaller frame and 155 lb weight will result in the seats being more comfortable. For winter tires I ordered General Altimax Arctic.


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## begreen (Feb 7, 2018)

woodgeek said:


> w00t!
> 
> We got our red Bolt LT 'Fiona' the day before Thanksgiving, and now have close to 4000 miles.
> 
> ...


That's too bad, the Volt seats are slightly stiff, but quite comfortable even on a long trip. Could they be 'bolted' in to a Bolt?


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## woodgeek (Feb 7, 2018)

While the Bolt draws a lot from the Volt and the Cruze in terms of systems and parts....the seats are a 'from scratch' creation that is not compatible for swap-out.

Basically, GM decided to make the cabin quite roomy (like a cross-over or small SUV), but for whatever reason, they needed to make it 3" narrower than one normally would make such a vehicle.  So they made the front bucket seats 2" narrower than any normal car seat.  So rather than sitting 'between' the structural supports on the edges of the seats, your behind and kidneys are pressing against the structural bolsters.  They also made a HUGE back seat legroom choice (which is nice), but did that by thinning the seat backs of the front seats (like on recent aircraft) minimizing the amount of padding in the backs.

So, huge and roomy cabin and back seats (I can straighten my legs in the front, and I haven't done that in any car since I was a kid) in a car whose footprint in length and width that of a compact car!  Its like a Tardis that way.  But a lot of the space-saving 'magic' comes at the expense of the thing in the middle of the cabin...the front seats.

Smaller people tend to say they're ok.


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## DuaeGuttae (Feb 7, 2018)

Congratulations.  

 My husband and I just benefitted from the Bolt in an unusual way.  A recent major relocation required us to add a second car to our family for my husband’s commute (previously he used metro/biking/walking and carpooled, and we have only owned one car for all our married life).  We were able to get a used 2017 LEAF from a Chevy dealership at the end of November, and its range is just fine for our normal needs, though substantially less than the Bolt’s.  Our whole family doesn’t even fit in the LEAF, so it will be the faithful minivan for whole-family excursions.  We love the LEAF for commuting and errands, and are glad some other driver bought it new, let it depreciate substantially, and traded it in to get more range.  

We’ve really enjoyed the all-electric vehicle, and I love that my kids are learning about this technology early.  My older kids now play a new version of the punch-buggy game by trying to spot the occasional electric car.


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## jebatty (Feb 8, 2018)

Congrats on your decision to get a Leaf. I tend to think that the move to an electric car is and will be accompanied by a shift on how a person or family uses a car, a shift to more thoughtful and intentional decision on driving, rather than just jump in the car and go. Being thoughtful and intentional may also be accompanied by an enhanced conservation ethic for transportation.

The Leaf just didn't have the range for us. The nearest "large" towns/cities (10-25,000 population) are 45 to 75 miles away, the one we usually travel to is the 45 mile city, and we needed a vehicle that could handle the round trip, especially in winter with reduced range. Charging stations also are scarce in our rural area, but that will change, probably slowly.


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## begreen (Feb 8, 2018)

I wish I could say I was that conscientious, but for me having an electric car that runs on the sun has been liberating. I use it more now and have been known to go for joy rides in the country pursuing my hobby in photography. With our ICE vehicle I am much more frugal. That said, we only put about 6-7k miles on the Volt and about 3-5k miles on the truck a year. The rest of the time we try to use public transportation.


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## jebatty (Feb 8, 2018)

I wish I lived in an area with public transportation, but then again I don't. Our rural area has trees, lakes, space, clean air and water (so far), and everything is a distance away. Except the local bar and a country store with gasoline and LP available, 6 and 3 miles away. If I lived in a metro area, which I did until 1997, bicycle, bus and now light rail would be my preferred travel.


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## spirilis (Feb 9, 2018)

begreen said:


> I wish I could say I was that conscientious, but for me having an electric car that runs on the sun has been liberating. I use it more now and have been known to go for joy rides in the country pursuing my hobby in photography. With our ICE vehicle I am much more frugal. That said, we only put about 6-7k miles on the Volt and about 3-5k miles on the truck a year. The rest of the time we try to use public transportation.


I too have had no shame about taking a random trip to the grocery store, or driving to the country for the heck of it...

The real problem I've found is the C-Max Energi I bought, initially for myself (wife was using the Focus Electric since she drives more), is now my wife's daily driver (citing it's roomier and sits higher, more comfortable seating position for the driver, as a "hard" reason why she needs to drive it) meaning I get the Focus Electric all the time and she ends up using a lot of gasoline (as she never goes out of her way to charge in public, only at home, and it doesn't support DCFC)... Should've just sprung for a Bolt ;-)


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## jebatty (Feb 9, 2018)

Bolt scheduled for delivery Monday. In addition to a Bosch Level 2 40 amp charger for our home, I'm getting a Level 2 16 amp charger with a 6-20 plug. I have wiring already in my garage for the 6-20, and it would be quite easy to put in a 6-20 receptacle in the garages of our adult children to allow charging at their homes when we visit. A Level 1 charger would be very slow.


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## spirilis (Feb 9, 2018)

Level 2 everywhere.  Any time I talk the ears off of others about EVs I mention.... if you want to do something NOW, pencil in looking at adding 240V circuits to your garage or near the driveway.


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## jebatty (Feb 10, 2018)

The Level 2 16 amp charger with a 6-20 plug is intended to be taken along in the car when visiting family. A 240V 20 amp circuit often is easy and inexpensive to add, especially if the breaker panel is close by, also usable for 240V tools, etc. A 240V 50 amp circuit, not so easy or inexpensive.


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## DBoon (Feb 10, 2018)

Hi jebatty, congratulations on the new Bolt. I am expecting to purchase one of these to replace my Sonic hatchback in a couple of years as that winds down, and will be interested in how you like the seats over time.


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## semipro (Feb 10, 2018)

jebatty said:


> The Level 2 16 amp charger with a 6-20 plug is intended to be taken along in the car when visiting family. .


Many houses have 240 VAC clothes dryer outlet installed. Can you simply carry an adapter from that to your 6-20 with a suitable extension cord?


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## jebatty (Feb 10, 2018)

a 240VAC dryer outlet could work with an adapter, if needed, but there may be a long extension cord needed to get from that outlet to the car. Also, the outlet behind the dryer might be difficult to access. Still worth considering.


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## DuaeGuttae (Feb 10, 2018)

jebatty said:


> a 240VAC dryer outlet could work with an adapter, if needed, but there may be a long extension cord needed to get from that outlet to the car. Also, the outlet behind the dryer might be difficult to access. Still worth considering.



We’ve found that our situation allows us to use the 120V charging regularly.  There was only one time when we didn’t use the LEAF for an errand because it hadn’t had sufficient time to charge, and those were unusual circumstances because of family visiting.

Our garage opens right into our laundry room, and there is an unused dryer outlet high on the wall a few feet from the cat flap.  That has been our plan for 240V, but we don’t own the Level2 charger.  (The Chevy dealership is supposed to provide one, and I think we need to make a phone call to remind them.  We do have it in writing.)  We also have a Nissan dealership where we can quick charge for free in 30 minutes as long as it’s during business hours.  I’ve done that once.

Jebatty, I will be interested to hear if your thoughts on intentional driving change as you live with the Bolt.  I would think that people who are buying EVs at this point were already quite thoughtful about when and how to use a car.
We certainly were, but we will go to a lot of trouble to ensure that we choose the LEAF over the van now.  (Three of our children require car safety seats, and moving them is a lot of trouble.  We are also not the type of people who want to buy extras.)

I bet you’re getting pretty excited at this point.


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## woodgeek (Feb 10, 2018)

I got a 16A 120/240V portable like @jebatty, (mine was $175 on FleaBay) and made up a number of adapters for it to common US 240V outlet types.  My portable EVSE has a 'normal' 120V 5-20 plug on it, so I can use a 'normal' 12AWG 100' heavy-duty extension cord with it.  

Most cords are good for 240V, so @jebatty can just swap out the two ends of a cheap cord with a 6-20R and 6-20P.

240V @ 16A = 3.8 kW, through a 100' extension cord.  

The portable EVSE lives in the Bolt 24/7, but the cord and adapters are in a heavy 'go bag' that lives in the garage, and that I throw in for road-trips.

Sadly, my sibs all have gas dryers.


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## woodgeek (Feb 10, 2018)

DuaeGuttae said:


> We’ve found that our situation allows us to use the 120V charging regularly.  There was only one time when we didn’t use the LEAF for an errand because it hadn’t had sufficient time to charge, and those were unusual circumstances because of family visiting.
> 
> Our garage opens right into our laundry room, and there is an unused dryer outlet high on the wall a few feet from the cat flap.  That has been our plan for 240V, but we don’t own the Level2 charger.  (The Chevy dealership is supposed to provide one, and I think we need to make a phone call to remind them.  We do have it in writing.)  We also have a Nissan dealership where we can quick charge for free in 30 minutes as long as it’s during business hours.  I’ve done that once.



1. The Chevy-branded EVSEs (made by clipper creek) if they give you one of those are dual voltage, and will work at 120 or 240V and 12A.  You just need to make an adapter from your dryer plug to NEMA 5-15R.
2. Charging at 120V is about 10% less efficient than at 240V...so this will cost you an extra $30-50/year depending on how far you drive.


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## georgepds (Feb 10, 2018)

I^2R

Beware of long extension chords with high current 


I know the Volt manual says just don't do it


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## DuaeGuttae (Feb 10, 2018)

woodgeek said:


> I got a 16A 120/240V portable like @jebatty, (mine was $175 on FleaBay) and made up a number of adapters for it to common US 240V outlet types.  My portable EVSE has a 'normal' 120V 5-20 plug on it, so I can use a 'normal' 12AWG 100' heavy-duty extension cord with it.
> 
> Most cords are good for 240V, so @jebatty can just swap out the two ends of a cheap cord with a 6-20R and 6-20P.
> 
> ...




Do they then not have outlets for electric?  That may be a dumb question, but it is our owning a gas dryer that causes us to have the unused electric outlet.  I suppose it depends whether the electrician gave them an option, but I would think the wiring would be there.  (Electrical wiring is so not my thing.  Please don’t laugh at me.)


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## woodgeek (Feb 10, 2018)

georgepds said:


> I^2R
> 
> Beware of long extension chords with high current
> 
> ...



The cord I have is rated for the voltage and the current I am using, has 80°C insulation, and dissipates 80W of heat (over 100') running at 16A.



It does not even get warm.


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## woodgeek (Feb 10, 2018)

DuaeGuttae said:


> Do they then not have outlets for electric?  That may be a dumb question, but it is our owning a gas dryer that causes us to have the unused electric outlet.  I suppose it depends whether the electrician gave them an option, but I would think the wiring would be there.  (Electrical wiring is so not my thing.  Please don’t laugh at me.)



You're brilliant.  I never even checked.


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## spirilis (Feb 10, 2018)

I have one of those 20ft J1772 40 amp extension cables... they are god-awful expensive but useful in more scenarios and should dissipate less heat due to the thicker wiring.  Luckily I already did the 14-50 outlet and JuiceBox 40A but I also discovered an easter egg, the 2017 Ford 120V convenience cords can work off 240V, so I have a few 240V adapters with a 5-15 socket (mostly for the C-Max energi).


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## woodgeek (Feb 10, 2018)

Didn't mean to rain on Jim's parade...I think he will love his Bolt.

Despite my seat rant, it really hasn't been a big deal at all.  That said, I just did the DIY padding upgrade to both front seats....took about an hour taking my time...



I added high-density green foam from Joann's fabrics, two 1" thick pieces...cut such that I added 1" under the whole seat and 2" under the back half.

Looks like it came from the factory that way, much more comfortable, and doesn't interfere with the seat heater in any way.


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## begreen (Feb 10, 2018)

Someone give that guy a tripod or a camera clamp. I'm nauseous after watching the video .


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## jebatty (Feb 10, 2018)

A gas dryer likely has a 120V outlet to run the motor and fan. Good for 12 to 16 amps depending on the wiring.


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## DuaeGuttae (Feb 10, 2018)

jebatty said:


> A gas dryer likely has a 120V outlet to run the motor and fan. Good for 12 to 16 amps depending on the wiring.



Yes, our gas dryer is plugged into a 120V outlet for electricity.  There is, however, a 240V outlet as well, presumably to accommodate someone who already owns or prefers an electric dryer.  Maybe this is the exception rather than the rule, but  perhaps Woodgeek’s siblings’ laundry rooms might be equipped for the possibility of an electric dryer even if gas service is available.


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## DuaeGuttae (Feb 10, 2018)

By the way, you fellows prompted me to call the salesman today to inquire about the Level 2 charger.  He admitted to having forgotten completely about it and will call back.  Let’s hope he doesn’t forget again.


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## TonyVideo (Feb 10, 2018)

DuaeGuttae said:


> By the way, you fellows prompted me to call the salesman today to inquire about the Level 2 charger.  He admitted to having forgotten completely about it and will call back.  Let’s hope he doesn’t forget again.


Bet he didn't forget. He was hoping you did. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## jebatty (Feb 11, 2018)

DuaeGuttae said:


> ... prompted me to call the salesman today to inquire about the Level 2 charger.


 The Level 2 charger is an add-on for the Bolt. The 120V charger is built into the car. 

Deep Portage just bought a Bolt LT, well equipped, 2 weeks ago. DP has been using the 120V charger so far while it awaits delivery of its Level 2 charger. Yesterday the DP Bolt took a 122 mile trip, dry highways, some gentle hills but mostly fairly level, outside temps between -5F and +16F, interior temp set at 62F, steering wheel heat "on," and the Bolt used 42.2 kWh = 2.9 miles/kWh. Highway speed was kept at 55-60 mph. Effective winter range of 174 miles, 74% of 238 miles rated.


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## woodgeek (Feb 11, 2018)

DuaeGuttae said:


> By the way, you fellows prompted me to call the salesman today to inquire about the Level 2 charger.  He admitted to having forgotten completely about it and will call back.  Let’s hope he doesn’t forget again.



This sounds a little suspicious.  For many people, 'L2' would mean an EVSE that can power the EV at its max rate of charge.  For the 2017 LEAF, that is 6.6 kW, and 28A at 240V.  EVSEs this powerful are typically >$600 MSRP (new), not including installation, which can be $500 more.  So it seems he promised you a $500-$1000 item on a used car purchase...and then 'forgot' about it.

While you should certainly push him to keep his promise, if it becomes clear that it will not happen you have other options...

My neighbor got a very nice 40A unit (which only uses 28A for his 2016 LEAF) for a steal on EBay (like $200 used, rather than $700 MSRP), by watching for a couple months. And using the stock L1 in the meantime.  He is one of those 'get a good deal' types of people.

I got a 16A 240V 'Duosida' EVSE from EBay for $175.  It will charge your LEAF from empty to full in 8 hours, in other words, overnight.  So you will be 'full' every morning.  I got one of these and tested it extensively, and had no trouble with it.  If you don't like EBay, the same thing is on amazon for $230.

For example:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/EVSE-Elect...ash=item25e9cc3508:g:sZYAAOSwmuVaTsAa&vxp=mtr


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## DuaeGuttae (Feb 11, 2018)

TonyVideo said:


> Bet he didn't forget. He was hoping you did.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk



He’s a young and pretty inexperienced guy.  I’m not sure he’s learned used car salesman tricks yet.  I could be wrong, but the dealership did put it in writing for us.


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## DuaeGuttae (Feb 11, 2018)

jebatty said:


> The Level 2 charger is an add-on for the Bolt. The 120V charger is built into the car.
> 
> Deep Portage just bought a Bolt LT, well equipped, 2 weeks ago. DP has been using the 120V charger so far while it awaits delivery of its Level 2 charger. Yesterday the DP Bolt took a 122 mile trip, dry highways, some gentle hills but mostly fairly level, outside temps between -5F and +16F, interior temp set at 62F, steering wheel heat "on," and the Bolt used 42.2 kWh = 2.9 miles/kWh. Highway speed was kept at 55-60 mph. Effective winter range of 174 miles, 74% of 238 miles rated.



I just had to do a quick google search to figure out what “Deep Portage” is.  I haven’t read anything I found, but it looks very interesting.


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## jebatty (Feb 11, 2018)

Lots of charger choices. For the Bolt I got a Bosch Power Max 2 Electric Car Charger 40 Amp 25' Cord Plug-in NEMA 6-50P for $864, list price at $1080. Buying it from the dealer with the car resulted in the new car warranty also covering the accessory. The dealer matched the lower price advertised by an internet seller. The plug-in was important because my shop (heated) already has a 6-50R which I use with the MIG welder. I could use a 50A circuit in the garage, but that will not be easy or cheap. 

For travel purposes I have ordered from Amazon the Maxx-16 (220-240V) with nema 6-20 plug. I already have 6-20R receptacles both in the garage and shop. No new wiring required for this. Maybe just stay with the 16A in the garage and not put in a 50A circuit.


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## DuaeGuttae (Feb 11, 2018)

woodgeek said:


> This sounds a little suspicious.  For many people, 'L2' would mean an EVSE that can power the EV at its max rate of charge.  For the 2017 LEAF, that is 6.6 kW, and 28A at 240V.  EVSEs this powerful are typically >$600 MSRP (new), not including installation, which can be $500 more.  So it seems he promised you a $500-$1000 item on a used car purchase...and then 'forgot' about it.
> 
> While you should certainly push him to keep his promise, if it becomes clear that it will not happen you have other options...
> 
> ...



Thanks for the information about other options.  My husband has been suggesting that if the dealership doesn’t produce the cable for us that they could write a check for us to buy one.  We’ll see what happens.

It seems that when the first owner traded in his car, he didn’t include either charging cable but that was part of the deal.  We knew the cables were missing when we bought the car.  The Chevy dealership loaned us one of their cables which we’ve been using ever since and did sign a written promise for the 6.6 charger.  We knew there was some risk, but it was one we were willing to take for the particular car we got.  We’d been LEAF shopping for a while.

If it turns out to be a problem for us, I’ll come back here and get wisdom from you experienced folks.  In the meantime I’ll keep watching for pictures of jebatty’s new arrival.


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## woodgeek (Feb 11, 2018)

The dryer circuit is likely a 40A circuit (breaker) good for 32A sustained current.  If so, she could try to pick up a 32A-ish EVSE if the cost difference (a few hundred $) was not a big deal.

Hey DG, how big is the circuit breaker on that dryer circuit?

Edit: 6.6 kW EVSE draws 27.5A, fine if the dryer plug is hooked to a 40A or larger circuit.


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## jebatty (Feb 11, 2018)

Our electric dryer is on a 30A circuit per the manual, spec plate on the dryer rates it at 28A.


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## spirilis (Feb 11, 2018)

Someone gave this EVSE a try and did a review - convenient since it's portable and variable-current, up to 32A:
https://evseadapters.com/collection...ducts/16-30a-adjustable-120-240v-charger-evse

Review:


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## jebatty (Feb 11, 2018)

Made a parking space for the Bolt in my heated shop. Did not want salt and water on the shop floor, and hopefully this tarp will prevent that from happening. Will need to mop up periodically. The Bolt is a little less than 14' long and 6' wide. The shop has 240V-200A service, lots of power for any charger.


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## Where2 (Feb 11, 2018)

If anyone's 240V charging setup needs a 4-wire extension cord, HFT has a 25' 10AWG cable with L14-30 ends, it's $40 before coupons. Search term: Generator Cord. I use them for their intended purpose. I'm fortunate, electrical wiring doesn't scare me, and I already debated dropping a 50A circuit near the driveway at both homes.


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## Highbeam (Feb 12, 2018)

jebatty said:


> Made a parking space for the Bolt in my heated shop. Did not want salt and water on the shop floor, and hopefully this tarp will prevent that from happening. Will need to mop up periodically. The Bolt is a little less than 14' long and 6' wide. The shop has 240V-200A service, lots of power for any charger.
> 
> View attachment 222840



I would be worried about damage from things being trapped under the tarp. Salt water trapped down there.


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## begreen (Feb 12, 2018)

So glad we don't have to deal with road salt.


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## DuaeGuttae (Feb 12, 2018)

jebatty said:


> Made a parking space for the Bolt in my heated shop. Did not want salt and water on the shop floor, and hopefully this tarp will prevent that from happening. Will need to mop up periodically. The Bolt is a little less than 14' long and 6' wide. The shop has 240V-200A service, lots of power for any charger.
> 
> View attachment 222840




It’s a nice parking spot, but where is the picture of the car?  It’s sort of like those stove install pictures where there’s no fire burning.


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## DuaeGuttae (Feb 12, 2018)

woodgeek said:


> The dryer circuit is likely a 40A circuit (breaker) good for 32A sustained current.  If so, she could try to pick up a 32A-ish EVSE if the cost difference (a few hundred $) was not a big deal.
> 
> Hey DG, how big is the circuit breaker on that dryer circuit?
> 
> Edit: 6.6 kW EVSE draws 27.5A, fine if the dryer plug is hooked to a 40A or larger circuit.



Remember that post earlier where you kindly said I was brilliant.  Now you’ll see that you were optimistic about that.

I don’t know what circuit is for the dryer.  Nothing in our box is labeled properly, and we need to get it figured out and relabeled.   It looked like there were a bunch of 10 Amp circuits in the box, and I’m totally confused by that.  (Electricity      is really not my thing.  I’m rather scared by wiring, so I tend to leave that to my husband and his father.  Kind of embarrassing for an EV owner.)

The dryer plug I believe I have correctly identified as a NEMA 14-30, so one would expect a 30 Amp circuit, right?  (There’s a lot of electrical stuff around here that isn’t quite what one would expect, though.).


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## jebatty (Feb 13, 2018)

Timing could not have been worse/better.

Worse #1. Driver of the Bolt, driving in really cold MN temps, ran out of juice about 10 miles before reaching my house. Time is about noon. He stopped on the highway at an auto repair shop owned by a friend of mine to plug in the 120V charger furnished with the Bolt. If he hadn't run the heat, fan, and all electrical systems with abandon, he would easily have made it all the way. Trip was about 130 miles, and driver said he left without a full charge. Driver left before I could make it to the auto shop.

Worse #2. I get in my car to meet the driver at the auto repair shop. On the way, about 5 miles from home and driving down the state highway, another driver at an intersection failed to stop at a stop sign and blew into the intersection. Collision with me and my car totaled. Fortunately, neither I nor other driver appear to be injured. Many thanks to safety laws: front airbags deployed and prevented me from slamming into the steering wheel and windshield, and I was wearing, which I always do, the shoulder and lap belt. State HP arrived and investigated. Other driver cited. Picture of my car is below.

Better #1. Wife was home, and she came to pick me up, drove to the auto shop to take a look at "Ruby," our new Bolt. Will pick up Ruby later today after the battery is charged.

Better #2. My car totaled, but now I have a replacement car, the Bolt, and likely no need to get a rental car. Serendipity.

Better #3. I was supposed to meet the Bolt driver and give him a check paying for the Bolt. Since the driver left, I now have the Bolt plus the money! What a deal. Will mail the check today to the dealer. "It's in the mail." That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Better #4. My wife spotted a private party for sale ad for a 2009 Camry at a nearby town, only 190,000 miles on the Camry. My totaled car was a 2007 Camry just shy of 200,000 miles. We're going to take a look at the 2009 this morning before picking up the Bolt, price looks fair. We need an ICE car to pull our small tear drop camper. Not a job for the Bolt.

Better #5 to Best. In the mail yesterday was the Level 2 - 16A charger. Picture of Ruby the Bolt will be coming later today.


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## DuaeGuttae (Feb 13, 2018)

Wow.  So glad everyone is okay, even if the Camry is not. They are great cars for longevity if one can avoid collisions. My mother drives a 1986 version, I believe.  (It has low miles for that age because my father retired in the late nineties, and it’s only used intermittently for those many years.)

Nice that Ruby’s driver made it to an established business.  Even nicer that the owner is a friend of yours.

We knew when we bought our LEAF that getting it home would be a challenge as the dealership was in a city about 100 miles from our house (and our house is a significant elevation change upwards). We were doing everything we could to maximize the range.  I drove instead of my husband since I’m lighter.  No heat, no fan, no interstate.  (We had nothing like Minnesota cold to deal with; it was in the fifties, but I did have a blanket.). We had planned our trip to be able to use a charging station midway in a little tiny town (Plugshare site).  It had 24/7 free charging, and we were able to use it to get enough power to get us home, but our range estimator went completely blank about five miles from our house.  I knew there was power there, and I debated parking outside the closed Nissan dealership.  I opted to have the car crawl home, knowing I could park on the subdivision streets if I didn’t have enough power, but it was rather nerve-wracking.  It sounds like the delivery driver really didn’t know what he was doing in terms of energy usage.


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## jebatty (Feb 13, 2018)

We named her Ruby. Came home just after noon today. Initial reaction is 100% positive. Took a 30 mile drive with my wife. A snappy vehicle, lots of guts.


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## begreen (Feb 13, 2018)

So glad it wasn't more serious and that you are here to tell the story. Bummer about the Camry. It sounds like you take good care of your cars.

Better #6 - The other guy's insurance will pay for a rental car and medical. Might not be a bad idea to have a neck xray done and this is an opportunity to rent a new car that you may have been interested in, but only to try it out? Be patient finding a replacement car.

Better #7. If possible try to keep your wrecked Camry at least long enough to swap out good parts (tires?) if you get the 2009 Camry.


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## Highbeam (Feb 13, 2018)

begreen said:


> So glad we don't have to deal with road salt.



You don’t? Is that just because you don’t drive in the winter? The pugest sound region is heavily salted these days. I frequently wash cars just to rinse the salt off. Luckily we thaw out between cold weather systems to allow rinsing.


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## begreen (Feb 13, 2018)

Your area is colder than the immediate Puget Sound area. The Puget Sound often keeps temps 5-10º warmer here than the foothills. They've sanded the local roads here once this winter so far and only at a few dangerous hills, no salt and no snow other than a light dusting. If they are using it a lot in your community it's a good idea to rinse it off as soon as is reasonable.

In general around Puget Sound most jurisdictions try to keep salt usage low to protect the environment. At least that's what they're telling us.

*Salt and Sand*
_We continuously evaluate new products, equipment, and techniques for combating snow and ice. Salt (sodium chloride, ordinary table salt) is a very safe and effective snow and ice fighting tool when used properly. When used at high concentrations for long periods of time, chloride compounds are potentially harmful to the environment and are corrosive to metals. But typical Pierce County winters aren't harsh enough to require salt use at the high volumes that cause significant environmental harm or corrosion._


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## jebatty (Feb 14, 2018)

begreen said:


> Better #7. If possible try to keep your wrecked Camry at least long enough to swap out good parts (tires?) if you get the 2009 Camry.


 The 2009 we looked at, not acceptable. Found out other driver's insurance was canceled. Proceeding with a claim on my insurance policy. As for parts? ... I do want the winter tires/wheels and spare off the 2007. Everything under the hood likely is unusable by me.

I remain thankfully amazed at how well the airbags and shoulder/seat belt protected by body. This could have been much, much worse. And at this point I don't think I reasonably could have done anything to have avoided the accident. Except stay home.


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## vinny11950 (Feb 14, 2018)

jebatty said:


> The 2009 we looked at, not acceptable. Found out other driver's insurance was canceled. Proceeding with a claim on my insurance policy. As for parts? ... I do want the winter tires/wheels and spare off the 2007. Everything under the hood likely is unusable by me.
> 
> I remain thankfully amazed at how well the airbags and shoulder/seat belt protected by body. This could have been much, much worse. And at this point I don't think I reasonably could have done anything to have avoided the accident. Except stay home.



Glad you are ok after that accident, Jim.

The new car looks really nice.  Congratulations.


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## begreen (Feb 14, 2018)

jebatty said:


> The 2009 we looked at, not acceptable. Found out other driver's insurance was canceled. Proceeding with a claim on my insurance policy. As for parts? ... I do want the winter tires/wheels and spare off the 2007. Everything under the hood likely is unusable by me.
> 
> I remain thankfully amazed at how well the airbags and shoulder/seat belt protected by body. This could have been much, much worse. And at this point I don't think I reasonably could have done anything to have avoided the accident. Except stay home.


At times there's nothing you can do. The only accident I have been in was while I was stopped in line at a red light. That was in a new 1988 Camry wagon. I was rear-ended by a drunk driver in a Ford F150 at a high enough speed to lift my car's rear end up and to shove the nose under the Honda in front of me. I walked away without injury. The cop said I was lucky that I didn't snap my neck. Most cases he had seen ended up in a neck fracture. The car did what it should do and protected me, crumpling to take the impact. That's always impressed me.


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## begreen (Feb 14, 2018)

vinny11950 said:


> Glad you are ok after that accident, Jim.
> 
> The new car looks really nice.  Congratulations.


Yeah, I am feeling a little Bolt envy.


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## Ashful (Feb 14, 2018)

Jebatty, I’m joining the conversation late, and did not read all six pages of responses, but I’m wondering about your decision to rely on now-seldomly used ICE cars for long road trips.  Sounds like a recipe for some ruined vacations.  Wouldn’t it make more sense to sell one or both ICEs, and just rent for the odd long-haul trip?


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## Circus (Feb 14, 2018)

Glade your OK. Don't skimp when replacing your Camry. You might know, but others often don't know, how to care for a vehicle. I would never buy vehicle with 200,000 miles on it. Brother just gave me his Sienna for free because the old transmission fluid fried the transmission. Guess how many miles are on it.


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## Where2 (Feb 14, 2018)

Circus said:


> Glade your OK. ... I would never buy vehicle with 200,000 miles on it.


Indeed we are all glad Jebatty is OK. We'd miss his interaction, stories about the new Bolt, and the solar projects in MN if something happened to him.

My daily driver presently has 230k, I picked it up with 165k on it, and it still gets 40mpg.  My wife's daily has 161k on it.


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## begreen (Feb 15, 2018)

Where2 said:


> My daily driver presently has 230k, I picked it up with 165k on it, and it still gets 40mpg.  My wife's daily has 161k on it.


Flatlanders, hrmpf.


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## jebatty (Feb 15, 2018)

Took Ruby the Bolt for a 140 mile ride yesterday, mostly on highways. Fully charged battery. Ruby reported 32kw of the 60kw battery capacity used. Outside temp was 22F at start and 42F at end three hours later. Trip was in dayIight, no use of head lights, drove conservatively, kept highway speed at 55 mph on the cruise control, except for an eleven mile interstate segment when I moved the cruise speed to 60 mph. Gentle accelerations. Slow downs before stops or slowing to take advantage of regeneration. I also turned off seat and steering wheel warming, kept cabin temp set at 61F, fan on low and directed to the windshield to prevent fogging. Traffic was very light. 

My energy usage was considerably less than and range considerably greater than initially estimated by the energy system. Range estimate changed as the trip progressed to better match what actually was occurring.

Observations: 
1) cruise control is amazingly smooth, on flat segments and both up and down hills. Not a quiver of slop in over or under running the set speed, only surges when resuming after a slow down, then rapid acceleration. To avoid that I manually accelerated to set speed before resuming.
2) Pushed the acceleration just a couple of times. Expected result of very rapid acceleration is correct.
3) Visibility is very good. Especially appreciate the sensor display on the side mirrors that light up when a vehicle passes on the right or left. They cover the small blind spot area very well. 
4) Experienced no discomfort in the seat, firm, did not notice any particular pressure points.
5) Small car with short wheel base, result in more car movement up and down in uneven pavement areas. In other words, ride is not like the smoothness of our much bigger and cushier Avalon.
6) Interior was quiet, minimal wind noise.
7) Need more driving time to become familiar with all the controls, the MyChevy app, bluetooth and Onstar operation. Basic driving is very simple, just like an ICE car: put it in gear and go. But placement of many controls is different from my now dead 2007 Camry.
8) As expected and also useful are the displays and info on battery charge, energy usage, energy efficiency, etc. 

Enjoyed the first distance trip in the Bolt, and I look forward to the Bolt achieving my objective of covering nearly all local driving requirements, which max out at about 175 miles round trip. If conservative driving comfortably allows a trip from our home to the homes of our children, all about 185 miles away, then I will be very pleased. Will need to have charging available at their homes, or locate nearby charge stations.


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## Ashful (Feb 15, 2018)

jebatty said:


> Gentle accelerations. Slow downs before stops or slowing to take advantage of regeneration. I also turned off seat and steering wheel warming, kept cabin temp set at 61F, fan on low and directed to the windshield to prevent fogging.


Sounds just marginally more comfortable than Paul Revere’s midnight ride, and a heck of a lot less enjoyable.


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## maple1 (Feb 15, 2018)

begreen said:


> Flatlanders, hrmpf.



?


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## begreen (Feb 15, 2018)

maple1 said:


> ?


Where2 is in South Florida. We will never be able to match that mileage in our hilly and mountainous location.


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## Circus (Feb 15, 2018)

Where2 said:


> My daily driver presently has 230k, I picked it up with 165k on it, and it still gets 40mpg. My wife's daily has 161k on it.


Mine has high mileage too.



jebatty said:


> I also turned off seat and steering wheel warming, kept cabin temp set at 61F, fan on low and directed to the windshield to prevent fogging..


Always wondered about the heating. Years ago we garaged the car to keep the engine from freezing, now it's to keep the people from freezing.


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## mr.fixit (Feb 15, 2018)

Instead of having a second ICE car for longer trips just get a super small trailer with a generator in it to pull behind the bolt and a extension cord and a couple gas tanks... Hmm. maybe not.
Lucky you weren't hurt Jim, could of been a lot worse.


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## begreen (Feb 15, 2018)

mr.fixit said:


> Instead of having a second ICE car for longer trips just get a super small trailer with a generator in it to pull behind the bolt and a extension cord and a couple gas tanks... Hmm. maybe not.
> Lucky you weren't hurt Jim, could of been a lot worse.


I actually thought of doing that for an electric Ranger truck I was considering buying, but no need for the trailer.


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## spirilis (Feb 15, 2018)

EVs won't let you drive 'em with a charger hooked up though :D


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## spirilis (Feb 15, 2018)

Range sucks in the winter with heat on.  My Ford Focus Electric goes from 120 miles of range down to 85, even 75 in the sub-15F crap... so annoying.

I have never run out of juice but, once in 15F weather coming back home from Baltimore with 55% batt I made the call to go out of my way to spend 20min at a free DC fast charge station so I could drive home with full heat w/o worrying.

(Love the free charging we have around Baltimore and soon to be more spots around MD.  Thanks MD taxpayers!)


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## Circus (Feb 15, 2018)

spirilis said:


> Range sucks in the winter with heat on. My Ford Focus Electric


Do they attempt to salvage any waste heat from the motor etc? Lets say a 85% efficient 10 hp motor. Wouldn't it put out 15% of the total wattage as heat?


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## spirilis (Feb 15, 2018)

Circus said:


> Do they attempt to salvage any waste heat from the motor etc? Lets say a 85% efficient 10 hp motor. Wouldn't it put out 15% of the total wattage as heat?


The Focus Electric "can" but rarely does because the target temp for heating (120F) is often higher than the MECT (motor coolant loop) temp even after a long highway drive (105F, in 30F weather).  If the heater wasn't running for a while I think it combines the loops via mixing valve to kickstart that.  Same with the battery coolant loop, although that is regulated to no higher than 77F from what I've seen.


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## TonyVideo (Feb 15, 2018)

Maybe the range estimator went out to conserve power.  Probably went out to not get complaints that it was not accurate down to feet.  



DuaeGuttae said:


> Wow.  So glad everyone is okay, even if the Camry is not. They are great cars for longevity if one can avoid collisions. My mother drives a 1986 version, I believe.  (It has low miles for that age because my father retired in the late nineties, and it’s only used intermittently for those many years.)
> 
> Nice that Ruby’s driver made it to an established business.  Even nicer that the owner is a friend of yours.
> 
> We knew when we bought our LEAF that getting it home would be a challenge as the dealership was in a city about 100 miles from our house (and our house is a significant elevation change upwards). We were doing everything we could to maximize the range.  I drove instead of my husband since I’m lighter.  No heat, no fan, no interstate.  (We had nothing like Minnesota cold to deal with; it was in the fifties, but I did have a blanket.). We had planned our trip to be able to use a charging station midway in a little tiny town (Plugshare site).  It had 24/7 free charging, and we were able to use it to get enough power to get us home, but our range estimator went completely blank about five miles from our house.  I knew there was power there, and I debated parking outside the closed Nissan dealership.  I opted to have the car crawl home, knowing I could park on the subdivision streets if I didn’t have enough power, but it was rather nerve-wracking.  It sounds like the delivery driver really didn’t know what he was doing in terms of energy usage.


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## DuaeGuttae (Feb 15, 2018)

TonyVideo said:


> Maybe the range estimator went out to conserve power.  Probably went out to not get complaints that it was not accurate down to feet.



Probably went out because I had been climbing major hills and was pretty close to what gets referred to as “the turtle of doom,” and Nissan engineers wanted to make it pretty clear that I should cease driving.  Thankfully no one in my family has ever met that turtle.

The range estimator on the Nissan seems to get little love because it really just makes estimates on how many miles you can drive if you keep driving under the same conditions.  I don’t mind that it jumps around and varies.  I think it’s interesting to see it lose few miles when I go away from home (downhill), and then it drops miles like crazy on the climb back home.  You can always know the charge level.  I was just too unfamiliar with the controls to check that my first time driving it, and I had never read about it going completely blank, so that did produce some anxiety for me that first time.

Jebatty,  thanks for the detailed follow-up post about the Volt.  It does say something about your range needs that you consider a 175 mile round trip “local.”  I consider that going out of town.

How long would it take fully to recharge at a child’s house if you were limited to 120V?


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## TonyVideo (Feb 16, 2018)

I would love to buy one for my wife. She drives round trip 120 miles a day to work round trip. I am not convinced the range is available yet for her. She likes it cold in the summer and hot in the winter (heated seats as well) with radio with some winter months with full lights in use coming and going. It would have to charge in 8 hours. Taking into account battery degradation over time I don't yet see it as a reality. 

On a side note I did see a EV with a Honda 2k generator running in a parking lot plugged in. I guess that is one way to tackle longevity on a commute.


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## jebatty (Feb 16, 2018)

DuaeGuttae said:


> How long would it take fully to recharge at a child’s house if you were limited to 120V?


 A long time. About 4 miles per hour of charge, or about 60 hours for a full 60kw charge for a completely depleted battery. The 240V-16A Level 2 charger that I bought for travel to the homes of our children will deliver a full charge in the same situation in about 15-18 hours. I don't believe it would be typical to run the battery down to 0, so as a practical matter charge time to full would be less to much less and would be to top off the battery. Chevy says a 240V-32A Level 2 charger will take about 9.5 hours in the same situation. 

As to temperature comfort, I am somewhat amused when I see comments that car cabin temp in the low 60's is objectionable. I suppose that's understandable if a person lives in a moderate or warm winter climate. But if a person lives in a cold climate, like northern MN in winter, having cabin temp in the 60's is pretty common and quite comfortable. Our house typically is in the low 60's, even the high 50's, many mornings in winter. The wood stove has burned out overnight and the house cools down. So some heavy socks, a sweater or better yet a down vest, and flannel pj's underneath, all make for a warm wake-up where I live. Add a hot cup of coffee to that. So having the car in the low 60's is pretty normal temperature.

Chevy advice is to not use a generator to charge a Bolt. I'm guessing that dirty power from a portable generator would be the cause for the advice. Don't know the actual impact on the charging system. Maybe an inverter pure sine wave generator would remove the objection. A 2000W sine wave inverter generator, at 4 miles per hour of charging, might be all that is needed in a pinch. Yet, carrying a generator is a lot of weight to be hauling around that likely would never be needed if a little more attention was given to route, distance, and driving conditions.


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## woodgeek (Feb 16, 2018)

Take a couple days off, and I miss all the action..... 
.....glad you are well Jim, and enjoying Ruby.

We picked up our Bolt from the dealer the day before Thanksgiving, threw our bags in it and drove 110 miles to see family.  Of course the Dealer promised to have it fully charged, and didn't.  (I don't think they know how long L1 or L2 takes).

Your delivery was more eventful.

If its 185 miles, in above freezing weather at <65 mph the Bolt should make the round trip without charging, if the tires are properly inflated (that is, a few pounds above what is on the door).  I keep mine at 41-42 psi for max efficiency.  Even a little L2 at the destination (or 10 mins on a DCFC, or overnight L1) would prevent 'white knuckles'.

Our 210 mile trips are at 70+ mph, 4 people and a dog, and need about 15-20 mins on a DCFC in our 'winter' temps.


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## jebatty (Feb 17, 2018)

A self-analysis tells me that with the Bolt "range anxiety" is my diagnosis, and my approach to anxiety is to find the cause, then resolve it. A 150 mile round trip in cold winter weather is my range anxiety parameter. 

The first test drive proved that the Bolt could easily handle that and have plenty of miles of range left if driving was very conservative. Yesterday I did a second test drive with much less conservative driving. The resulting self-treatment greatly resolved my anxiety. With temps in even colder weather (10-22F), using the cabin heater set to 70F, using the steering wheel and the seat heaters as needed for added comfort, driving a typical mix of small towns and open highways, and with speeds mostly in the 60-65 mph range, the Bolt battery easily will handle the 150 mile round trip with 50 miles or more of range still in the battery. 

Most importantly, the Bolt is a heck-of-a fun car to drive. A silent launch from a red stop light will leave almost any competitor in sight only through the rear view mirror. Maybe the next Chevy BEV will be named "Jolt."

Business opportunity: mobile DC fast charger equipped tow or service trucks to quickly breathe new life into exhausted BEVs stranded on the highway. This would pretty much eliminate any range anxiety. Might not be inexpensive, but neither is a tow truck for a vehicle breakdown.

BEV accessory or standard equipment: 
1) a 14-30r or similar type receptacle on the car so that the battery could be used for 120/240V uses, especially emergency backup power for a home in the event of a power loss, or
2) ability to plug into the charging port and draw DC power from the car to an accessory inverter to provide 120/240VAC power

The Bolt's 60kw battery is equivalent to 4+ Tesla 13.2kw Powerwall 2.0 batteries. That's a lot of emergency power.


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## woodgeek (Feb 17, 2018)

jebatty said:


> The first test drive proved that the Bolt could easily handle that and have plenty of miles of range left if driving was very conservative. Yesterday I did a second test drive with much less conservative driving. The resulting self-treatment greatly resolved my anxiety. With temps in even colder weather (10-22F), using the cabin heater set to 70F, using the steering wheel and the seat heaters as needed for added comfort, driving a typical mix of small towns and open highways, and with speeds mostly in the 60-65 mph range, the Bolt battery easily will handle the 150 mile round trip with 50 miles or more of range still in the battery.



Nice.  A few comments....the warm battery pack from your workshop is likely playing a small role here.  The Bolt battery is not thermostated to a given setpoint, it is allowed to passively vary when parked to stay within a range, with a lower limit of about 32°F.  Unplugged, it is allowed to get much colder depending on the SOC (state of charge) but will self-heat to maintain a lower setpoint and not freeze.  So, if you parked the car overnight in a cold location (e.g. at a destination) the range might take a hit.  This will be factored into the GOM (guess-o-meter) range.   Also, a cold battery will often only DCFC at max 24 kW, doubling your FC time.

IOW, cold soaking is safe for the car, and will not strand you, but will lead to some small, annoying surprises in range and charge speed.

I usually use the seat and wheel heaters liberally and the cabin heater sparingly, as needed, as it is more efficient.



jebatty said:


> Most importantly, the Bolt is a heck-of-a fun car to drive. A silent launch from a red stop light will leave almost any competitor in sight only through the rear view mirror. Maybe the next Chevy BEV will be named "Jolt."



Agree.  I find myself doing things requiring a sudden burst of speed/accel/power to change my placement in traffic (like to get away from a bothersome driver).  In my ICE cars, mashing the accelerator like that would (after a slow lag) spike the RPMs, make a obvious loud engine noise surge, jolt everyone's necks with a transmission shift, and generally be unpleasant to my riders and neighbors.  In the BEV I can do the same maneuver with a smooth application of acceleration (reducing 'jerk', the time derivative of acceleration), and without a surge of noise pollution in my environment.  So I DO.



jebatty said:


> Business opportunity: mobile DC fast charger equipped tow or service trucks to quickly breathe new life into exhausted BEVs stranded on the highway. This would pretty much eliminate any range anxiety. Might not be inexpensive, but neither is a tow truck for a vehicle breakdown.



I do not plan to ever run out of juice, just as I never ran out of gas, or got stranded in my LEAF with a 22 kWh battery.  That said, there are options.  Towing the Bolt is tricky....read the manual.  If you put it in Neutral, it has a tendency to switch out to Park (e.g. if you open the drivers side door).  If being towed, this will engage the parking brake and burn out the brakes.  Also fun at car washes if you get out of the car.  So the manual says...flatbed.

Another option is to tow it with the front wheels on pavement (forward or backwards), and to ride in the car in 'L' or strong regen mode.  At normal driving speeds this will charge that battery at 20-30 kW (with out stressing the system), with the drag requiring an extra 20-30 horsepower from the truck.  10 minutes of that would get you 15-20 miles of range.



jebatty said:


> BEV accessory or standard equipment:
> 1) a 14-30r or similar type receptacle on the car so that the battery could be used for 120/240V uses, especially emergency backup power for a home in the event of a power loss, or
> 2) ability to plug into the charging port and draw DC power from the car to an accessory inverter to provide 120/240VAC power
> 
> The Bolt's 60kw battery is equivalent to 4+ Tesla 13.2kw Powerwall 2.0 batteries. That's a lot of emergency power.




Not standard equipment, but you can get a12V 1500W pure sine inverter from amazon for $150, cable it up with some old, heavy-duty jumper cables, and you are good to go. When the car is 'on' the DC-DC converter powering the 12V system provides up to about 130A sustained. After conversion this (cheapo) system can deliver 120VAC at up to ~1200W continuous (higher surge) at 50% overall efficiency.

As with the towing..the trick is getting the car to stay 'on' rather than automatically switching itself to 'P' (after two hours), deactivating the DC-DC, and leading you to rapidly pull down (and likely damage) the half-size AGM 12V battery the bolt uses as a 'starter'.  The 'best way' is to, from 'Drive' (1) apply the parking brake manually (2) switch to N (3) clamber over to the passenger seat and exit that car on the right (opening the driver door switches to P).  It will stay in N forever this way, with the DC-DC engaged.  Downside....the pedestrian alert sound is engaged in N when stopped (but not in D or P), so if the sound going annoys you, you have to (4) pull the fuse that powers it, and replace it after the blackout is over.

The LEAF was much simpler....the DC-DC (and not the alert sound) ran in P when stopped, and it would just quietly sit 'on' in P forever (with the parking brake set).


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## begreen (Feb 17, 2018)

How would you folks compare the Bolt's resistance cabin heater to the Leaf's heat pump heater as far as speed in warming up and effectiveness?


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## woodgeek (Feb 17, 2018)

I had the cheapo LEAF with resistive heater.  It was instant.  the Bolt heater heats a fluid that goes to a core, and takes a bit to come up.  I am a little down on HPs in cars....when you really need it (when it is super cold) then it quits and you switch to resistive anyway.


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## begreen (Feb 17, 2018)

For our climate a hp heater would be great and quite efficient, but I can see why GM to the approach to address a better solution for the national market.


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## jebatty (Feb 18, 2018)

If I sense correctly the operation of the Bolt heater, it works well and maintains very good temperature control. The remote start/pre-heat/condition before driving using plug-in power results in a very comfortable start for a drive. During the 3 hour second test drive with outside temp of 10-22F, the drive was very comfortable. Seat heating automatically adjusted based on the climate control settings. In other vehicles with seat heating I have frequently experienced seats too hot, and I would turn it off. Not with the Bolt. Inside temperature stability was very good with the temperature set at 70F. The day was sunny, and the Bolt solar sensor appeared to work well with the other settings to maintain consistent interior temperature. 

The whole climate control system in the Bolt as described in the manual is complicated and sophisticated. It appears to be very well designed and functions to minimize kWh usage while providing a high level of comfort.


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## begreen (Feb 18, 2018)

Sounds similar to the Volt's system for cabin and seat heating.


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## semipro (Feb 18, 2018)

I've often wondered why they don't heat EVs using latent heat of fusion salts that are melted as during recharging and solidify while driving to produce heat.  This way only the draw of the circulation fan would use battery power. 
Of course there is the added weight issue.


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## woodgeek (Feb 19, 2018)

semipro said:


> I've often wondered why they don't heat EVs using latent heat of fusion salts that are melted as during recharging and solidify while driving to produce heat.  This way only the draw of the circulation fan would use battery power.
> Of course there is the added weight issue.



What is the energy density per mass relative to Li-ion?


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## semipro (Feb 19, 2018)

woodgeek said:


> What is the energy density per mass relative to Li-ion?


I don't know off-hand.  
I believe you're thinking about it correctly though -- purely by energy density.  
It's hard to imagine that energy density of melted salt is even close to Li-ion even with a phase change.


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## begreen (Feb 19, 2018)

Not sure about the energy density for molten salts, but the question reminded me of an article I read of a more cost effective replacement for lithium ion that is in development and being optimized.
https://news.stanford.edu/press-releases/2017/10/09/sodium-based-batteries-cost-effective-lithium/
but when will we see it?
https://spectrum.ieee.org/energywis...-before-sodium-batteries-are-worth-their-salt


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## woodgeek (Feb 19, 2018)

begreen said:


> Not sure about the energy density for molten salts, but the question reminded me of an article I read of a more cost effective replacement for lithium ion that is in development and being optimized.
> https://news.stanford.edu/press-releases/2017/10/09/sodium-based-batteries-cost-effective-lithium/
> but when will we see it?
> https://spectrum.ieee.org/energywis...-before-sodium-batteries-are-worth-their-salt



I think the Na battery is for stationary apps.  And I think the PR overstates the cost of LI.


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## begreen (Feb 19, 2018)

Sounds like they still need to develop the anode, but it is being considered for transport and stationary use. In this 2016 article lithium was going for $20,000/ton for battery grade material on the spot market. Maybe it's down to $15,000 currently?
http://fortune.com/2016/06/06/lithium-price-tesla-metal-future/


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## woodgeek (Feb 19, 2018)

begreen said:


> Sounds like they still need to develop the anode, but it is being considered for transport and stationary use. In this 2016 article lithium was going for $20,000/ton for battery grade material on the spot market. Maybe it's down to $15,000 currently?
> http://fortune.com/2016/06/06/lithium-price-tesla-metal-future/



But if you only need 10s of pounds, that price is hardly a problem.


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## begreen (Feb 19, 2018)

I don't have a sense of how many pounds of Lithium there are in the 960 lb. Bolt battery. Just 10s of pounds?


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## woodgeek (Feb 19, 2018)

The Google suggests that lithium batteries need 3-4X as much Lithium as suggested by the electrochemical reaction, or about 320g of metallic Li per kWh of capacity.  For the 60 kWh Bolt battery, that works out to 40 lbs of metallic Li, or $400 worth at your (steep) $20k/ton figure.  

IIRC the Cobalt is the most expensive element, with Nickel close behind.  LG Chem's next generation battery (in the 2019 Bolt and LEAF) is engineered to have less Co and Ni to reduce material costs.

Most of the mass is graphite and electrolyte.


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## begreen (Feb 19, 2018)

Thanks. That puts it more into perspective.


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## jebatty (Feb 24, 2018)

After 2-1/2 weeks with the Bolt, I'm about to change my prior expressed opinion that having an EV may result in driving less because of the need to give greater thought to range than driving with an ICE. For local driving (round trips up to about 150 miles), my range anxiety is rapidly diminishing. Even driving on snowy roads with temperatures barely above 0F and heating to a comfortable level, range generously exceeds 150 miles. I had winter tires installed, which I also had on my ICE, and the Bolt's handling and traction in heavy snow and on snow-packed roads is very good.

Also, what was mostly subconscious before became very conscious yesterday. I took a 20 mile trip and thought, why not? That drive doesn't cost anything. Consideration of the cost of driving, i.e. gasoline mostly but also oil and filter changes and vehicle service in general, is rapidly becoming a non-consideration.  Even at only slightly over 3 miles/kw, which is what I'm experiencing in cold winter driving, the energy cost of driving has been reduced to a cost equivalent of a little more than $1/gal if electricity is our local rate of $0.11/kw, assuming 30 mpg with an ICE vehicle. Add to that the fact that all of the electricity to power the Bolt is coming from our solar PV, and the cost now looks to be about $0.

I know I will get over it, but at this time driving new technology is very sexy. Talking to other people about driving an all-electric car is really fun, especially when looking at the expressions on their faces. Besides this, the simple fact is that the EV works and does a very good job at doing that.


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## spirilis (Feb 24, 2018)

I have found myself driving more "for the hell of it" in my EV too.  Yesterday I rather impulsively drove 30 min each way to surprise my wife by meeting her for lunch... and erased most of the range loss afterwards via the Level 2 charger at work once I got back.

Definitely https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox effect there.

The main cost to consider beyond "fuel" is the $/mile for the tires.


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## woodgeek (Feb 24, 2018)

I find tire wear costs about half as much as the energy to propel the car.


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## Ashful (Feb 24, 2018)

woodgeek said:


> I find tire wear costs about half as much as the energy to propel the car.


That can vary quite a bit, depending on the tire and the driver.


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## TonyVideo (Feb 24, 2018)

I think I would like punching it all the time. Tires would be a problem.


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## spirilis (Feb 24, 2018)

TonyVideo said:


> I think I would like punching it all the time. Tires would be a problem.


Software limiting the torque below 10MPH on the Ford EV helps with that... for better or worse lol


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## jebatty (Mar 3, 2018)

Range confidence continues to grow. Took a 135 mile round trip yesterday with one passenger, full charge. No opportunity to recharge in route. First half was in temps 4-12F and little wind, about 2.8 miles/kw. Second half temps were in the high 30 to low 40F range and 10-15mph cross/headwind, about 3.9 miles/kw. Used heat as needed to be comfortable. Speeds were at limits of 55-60mph. Ended the trip with remaining battery capacity at 48 miles. Used about 3/4 of battery charge. Assuming maximum range at these conditions of 135 + 48 miles (183), battery range was 77% of rated 238 miles. 

These results clearly show the effect of temperature and use of heating on battery range.


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## woodgeek (Mar 3, 2018)

Just bought a jack and lug wrench for my Bolt.  Already had a tire plug kit, a 12V inflator and a can of 'fix a flat'.

There is a space for a full sized spare and jack under the rear cargo floor, which currently has one of those styrofoam organizers in it.  Makes the car cheaper and lighter, I guess.

The stock Bolt tires are 'self-sealing' which is great if you hit a nail, but not gonna help if you hit something big or damage the sidewall.  And of course, the winter tires that @jebatty and I are running are not self-sealing, and winter is a great time for tire damage and a bad time for being stranded.

So I figure I will carry a summer wheel in the winter, and a winter wheel in the summer as a full size spare.  The 50 lbs of gear might hurt range by 1% or maybe 2 miles, but be good for peace of mind on longer trips.  Replacement OEM Bolt tires can be hard/slow to source.

Apparently the only no-no is running two different sized tires on the front (drive) wheels...this can overheat the differential.  So front flats require a matching rear wheel be moved to the front, and the spare goes on the rear.

The chassis under the Bolt has circular hole jack points rather than the unibody pinch welds seen on most current cars.  So the compatible jack is apparently one from any Chevy S10 pickup, available used/salvage with 19mm lugwrench on Ebay for $40 delivered.

*EDIT:* Scratch that....the under floor space is sized for a compact spare.  Not interested.  I will stick with me self-seal OEMs, and a plug kit and goo can for my snows.


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## Ashful (Mar 4, 2018)

Interesting that these come without a spare.  My newest car also came without a spare.  I wonder if this is going to become the trend?

On the long list of things learned on your way to manhood, changing your own car tire used to be somewhere fairly high on the list.  Not to sound like an old curmudgeon, but today that seems to have been replaced with having AAA on speed dial.  I don't like it.

_edit:  @woodgeek, that plug kit and inflator will be useless when you hit one of our typical PA potholes, and suffer the too-common bent rim or blown sidewall.  I seem to see that, far more often than nail holes, in shouldered cars today._


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## begreen (Mar 5, 2018)

Our Volt doesn't have a spare either. It's been so long since we've had a flat tire that I had forgotten about it. That was about 15 yrs ago and the only flat we've had in at least 40yrs. if not more. Funny thing, I changed my first flat tire at age 14. No one was there to help me. No one showed me how, though I had seen someone do it once before. The owner had left the car in the street after dropping my sister off from babysitting. It was late at night and her husband picked her up. The next day I put on the spare and then drove the car around the block. It was a shift and I had never driven before except steering in my father's lap as a kid, but I had practiced shifting for many days during the summer in an abandoned truck and just did it. Point being, you can teach yourself as long as you have the will to learn.


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## Ashful (Mar 5, 2018)

begreen said:


> It's been so long since we've had a flat tire that I had forgotten about it. That was about 15 yrs ago and the only flat we've had in at least 40yrs. if not more.


You need to visit eastern PA.  We have potholes that will swallow a Prius.  On some roads, they occur every 150 feet, in spring.

North of us, the roads freeze, and mostly stay frozen.  Minimal damage.  Far south, they never freeze, no damage.  We’re in that MD thru PA belt that seems to freeze every night and thaw every day, thru most of the winter, which just blows the roads apart.


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## begreen (Mar 5, 2018)

Grew up north of you. Did deliveries into NYC sometimes and saw many a pothole. My SIL lost a shock due to one (and the county reimbursed her!)  I've had my fair share of winter driving, potholes and road salt. Glad to leave that all behind.


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## Ashful (Mar 5, 2018)

begreen said:


> Grew up north of you. Did deliveries into NYC sometimes and saw many a pothole. My SIL lost a shock due to one (and the county reimbursed her!)  I've had my fair share of winter driving, potholes and road salt. Glad to leave that all behind.


Yes, I recall, now!  You may have cleaner cities and better weather, out there.  But like John Spartan visiting the underground, our meager shoulder-less roads -- where speed limits are a mere suggestion -- feel like home.


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## jebatty (Mar 7, 2018)

While driving the Bolt I thought about the regenerative control system: seamless switching between drawing from the battery to propel the car and capturing kinetic energy from the car to charge the batteries when propulsion power was not needed. This type of control system could be very useful for home solar PV systems with battery storage: 1) house demand met first from available PV energy, house demand in excess of PV met second from batteries if SOC sufficient, house demand in excess of PV plus batteries met third from grid; 2) PV energy in excess of house demand first supplied to batteries to bring batteries to full SOC, and second supplied to grid if batteries at full charge.

Maybe this type of control system already exists and is commercially available. If so, I would appreciate info on where to read more about it.


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## CaptSpiff (Mar 17, 2018)

jebatty said:


> Maybe this type of control system already exists and is commercially available. If so, I would appreciate info on where to read more about it.



Isn't the Tesla PowerWall design on that similar design/operational concept?


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## woodgeek (Mar 17, 2018)

I think it is.


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## Circus (Mar 20, 2018)

Just saw this video about battery longevity


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## jebatty (Mar 25, 2018)

DuaeGuttae said:


> How long would it take fully to recharge at a child’s house if you were limited to 120V?


 Chevy says about 4 miles/hr on 120V. This could work well for a "typical" 50 miles/day of driving and plugging it in promptly after the drive. In effect the 120V charger simply would be topping off the battery every day. But for me a "typical" daily drive easily could be 85-155 miles, or 21-40 hours of charge time. Which is why I bought a L2 charger that provides up to 40A/240V, although the Bolt L2 charge rate is 32A. I got the 40A L2 charger thinking another future EV that would charge at the higher rate, or a L2 charger my son could use to his benefit when he gets his Tesla.

After 6 weeks with the Bolt, including temps down to -10F and snow, I remain completely satisfied with the Bolt. Performance has been flawless. The goal of having an EV that could meet up to about 155 miles round trip on a single charge is being fully met, and in fact, I am venturing further than that and moving into the realm of Public DC fast charge stations. Earlier this week I used the Bolt to attend a two day meeting on a round trip of 320 miles, between my home and Minneapolis. I topped off twice using two different DCFC stations, just to learn how to use them. One was GreenLots, pricey, the other ChargePoint, very reasonable. On Wednesday I have a meeting at a location of 210 miles round trip. Depending on temperature and wind conditions, that may be a single charge trip, although the only recharge possibility is at the half way point on a L2 charger, and I likely will take an hour off and add about a 25 mile charge. I don't want to tend up "dead in the water" on the highway at some point before making it home.

Edit: 2388 miles on the Bolt so far.


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## begreen (Mar 25, 2018)

How's she go in the snow Jim?


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## DuaeGuttae (Mar 25, 2018)

jebatty said:


> Chevy says about 4 miles/hr on 120V. This could work well for a "typical" 50 miles/day of driving and plugging it in promptly after the drive. In effect the 120V charger simply would be topping off the battery every day. But for me a "typical" daily drive easily could be 85-155 miles, or 21-40 hours of charge time. Which is why I bought a L2 charger that provides up to 40A/240V, although the Bolt L2 charge rate is 32A. I got the 40A L2 charger thinking another future EV that would charge at the higher rate, or a L2 charger my son could use to his benefit when he gets his Tesla.
> 
> After 6 weeks with the Bolt, including temps down to -10F and snow, I remain completely satisfied with the Bolt. Performance has been flawless. The goal of having an EV that could meet up to about 155 miles round trip on a single charge is being fully met, and in fact, I am venturing further than that and moving into the realm of Public DC fast charge stations. Earlier this week I used the Bolt to attend a two day meeting on a round trip of 320 miles, between my home and Minneapolis. I topped off twice using two different DCFC stations, just to learn how to use them. One was GreenLots, pricey, the other ChargePoint, very reasonable. On Wednesday I have a meeting at a location of 210 miles round trip. Depending on temperature and wind conditions, that may be a single charge trip, although the only recharge possibility is at the half way point on a L2 charger, and I likely will take an hour off and add about a 25 mile charge. I don't want to tend up "dead in the water" on the highway at some point before making it home.
> 
> Edit: 2388 miles on the Bolt so far.




That’s a lot of miles in six weeks.  Glad you got an EV.

One of my children and I spotted a brand new red Bolt at the library earlier this month.  It still had the temporary tags and wasn’t covered with pollen, and it was beautiful.  We had to walk around it and admire.  I thought of both Ruby and Fiona.


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## jebatty (Mar 26, 2018)

begreen said:


> New How's she go in the snow Jim?


 As good as any car I have had. With the 17" wheels it has good clearance, better than our Avalon road cruiser. And I bought a set of winter tires for ice and snow, like we have on the Avalon. We have had winter tires for many years, and I would no longer drive with9out them.


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## woodgeek (Mar 26, 2018)

Glad to hear it Jim.

You've got us beat on mileage.  We're at 6200 miles after four months.


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## begreen (Mar 26, 2018)

At this rate he'll pass us in a little more than a year. 27,000 miles after 4.75 yrs on the Volt.


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## jebatty (Mar 27, 2018)

The high mileage is the result of living in a rural area, with distances to nearby small towns from 13 - 22 miles, and nearby larger towns 42 - 75 miles. Add to that a volunteer/community lifestyle which involves nearly daily trips to one or more of these towns. For example, activities on Sun/Mon involved 155 miles of travel with the Bolt for weekly grocery shopping plus three meetings: prep for a presentation at clean energy conference tomorrow in a city 100 miles away; planning meeting with the county boards and soil and water conservation districts of two counties on a joint watershed protection plan; planning meeting with the county planning commission on proposed changes to the county land use ordinance.

With the Bolt and our PV system I am thankful that most of these trips now will be 100% fossil carbon free.


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## jebatty (Mar 29, 2018)

I'm getting quite comfortable with the mileage/range gauge on the Bolt. Took a 204 mile round trip yesterday to a clean energy conference, temps in 30's to low 40's, head/cross-winds at about 15 mph. At the start, range gauge showed full charge and range of 202 miles, +/- about 30 miles as "max' and "min." Only available charge was a 110/120V (8-12A) outlet in the parking ramp at the 1/2 way point, my destination. I drove conservatively, using minimal heat and mostly keeping my speed in the 55-60 mph range. Headlights were on the entire trip. At destination arrival gauge showed 101 miles traveled and 102 miles range availability. When I left the conference and after a few hours of 110/120V charging (8A), the range gauge showed 116 miles range +/- 12 miles. Drove conservatively home, no headlights, and on arrival total distance was 204 miles with 21 miles range still available. I had no apprehension on the return trip because I knew the remaining miles to travel at two checkpoints, one at 70 miles and the other at 42 miles remaining, and at both points sufficient range was shown to be available. The energy report showed +1.5% for driving, -2% for climate control, and -5.5% for temperature.

The take-away is that the range gauge is quite accurate with known temperature and driving habits. A major weather change or unexpected driving conditions (traffic jams, for example) in route could deliver a surprise, but there would be plenty of warning by paying attention to the range gauge and knowing the actual miles remaining to be traveled. Also, while relying on 110/120V charging during a trip for any major addition to range is not reasonable, unless a long parking period is anticipated, a "bump" in charge over a short parking period can be very valuable.

I would like to know what to expect as range moves closer to 0 and how much, if any, extra miles actually might be available to handle an unexpected situation. But operating the Bolt to a fully discharged battery without a plan on what to do to extract a dead Bolt to a charge location is not very practical. Obviously, the best alternative is to be careful not to run the Bolt to 0.


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## Marshy (Mar 29, 2018)

jebatty said:


> I'm getting quite comfortable with the mileage/range gauge on the Bolt. Took a 204 mile round trip yesterday to a clean energy conference, temps in 30's to low 40's, head/cross-winds at about 15 mph. At the start, range gauge showed full charge and range of 202 miles, +/- about 30 miles as "max' and "min." Only available charge was a 110/120V (8-12A) outlet in the parking ramp at the 1/2 way point, my destination. I drove conservatively, using minimal heat and mostly keeping my speed in the 55-60 mph range. Headlights were on the entire trip. At destination arrival gauge showed 101 miles traveled and 102 miles range availability. When I left the conference and after a few hours of 110/120V charging (8A), the range gauge showed 116 miles range +/- 12 miles. Drove conservatively home, no headlights, and on arrival total distance was 204 miles with 21 miles range still available. I had no apprehension on the return trip because I knew the remaining miles to travel at two checkpoints, one at 70 miles and the other at 42 miles remaining, and at both points sufficient range was shown to be available. The energy report showed +1.5% for driving, -2% for climate control, and -5.5% for temperature.
> 
> The take-away is that the range gauge is quite accurate with known temperature and driving habits. A major weather change or unexpected driving conditions (traffic jams, for example) in route could deliver a surprise, but there would be plenty of warning by paying attention to the range gauge and knowing the actual miles remaining to be traveled. Also, while relying on 110/120V charging during a trip for any major addition to range is not reasonable, unless a long parking period is anticipated, a "bump" in charge over a short parking period can be very valuable.
> 
> I would like to know what to expect as range moves closer to 0 and how much, if any, extra miles actually might be available to handle an unexpected situation. But operating the Bolt to a fully discharged battery without a plan on what to do to extract a dead Bolt to a charge location is not very practical. Obviously, the best alternative is to be careful not to run the Bolt to 0.


I'm glad someone is offsetting my consumption of fossil fuel. Cary on.


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## Doug MacIVER (Mar 29, 2018)

pic of my new 1905 electric horseless carriage?  just a little before it's time!


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## Ashful (Mar 29, 2018)

Marshy said:


> I'm glad someone is offsetting my consumption of fossil fuel. Cary on.
> View attachment 225121


I drive my 5.7L RAM when I want to conserve fuel, it gets close to 14 mpg.  My sedan runs 10 - 12 mpg, depending on distance, terrain, and attitude.  My prior coupe never got much better than 8 mpg, and only sat two, so I guess I'm headed in the right direction.

But I admire what jebatty is doing, here.  Resources are limited, we can't bury our heads in the sand.  Conservation by those who are less interested in fast cars allows those willing to pay to play a temporary free pass to do otherwise.  It's all headed in the right direction, there.  By the same token, I'll avoid infringing on the limited resource of Spandex, to save it for his bicycle shorts.

Do what makes you happy, folks.


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## woodgeek (Mar 29, 2018)

Jeez Jim, that would have been a white knuckler, hyper-miling kinda trip for me.  

I used to slow down in the LEAF in a range pinch, but haven't done that in the Bolt yet. I suppose that I should work out if its faster to fast charge for 5 more minutes or to take five more minutes to get there.....my intuition, is to drive at 70 versus 55, and to spend 5 extra minutes chilling on the charger....hmmm.

I agree that the issue is one of 'margin'.  I generally run Apple Maps on a roadtrip, and know my distance to destination (or next DCFC) in real time.  I just check the guess-o-meter (GOM) projected range and Apple maps distance remaining and take the difference....30-50 miles....drive like a speed demon, below 25 start to sweat it or slow down, and I would only normally drive less than 15-20 miles of margin if I was within 30 of home.

Similarly, when I am on the DCFC, I put my next stop/charger in the Apple Maps. and I charge at least until I have that much on the GOM + 30.

I find that traffic adds margin (slowing down), while rain and esp snow kill range and eat margin.  Since none are predictable, I have found 30 miles a good minimum range margin for me.  

An additional factor is topography.  My home is 600' above the coastal plain with I-95, Philly, etc.  My sense is that this equals about 8-10 miles of range...so the return leg coming home can take 15-20 miles more 'range' than the outbound leg to most destinations.  On the HW near my home on the uphill portion, our LEAF would lose 3 miles on the GOM for every mile travelled, esp at 80 mph.  

This 30 mile margin is no bigs on a Bolt that goes 200 miles at HW speeds easily, and was a kick in the LEAF that only went 60 miles in the winter at high speed.


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## woodgeek (Mar 30, 2018)

Ashful said:


> I drive my 5.7L RAM when I want to conserve fuel, it gets close to 14 mpg.  My sedan runs 10 - 12 mpg, depending on distance, terrain, and attitude.  My prior coupe never got much better than 8 mpg, and only sat two, so I guess I'm headed in the right direction.
> 
> But I admire what jebatty is doing, here.  Resources are limited, we can't bury our heads in the sand.  Conservation by those who are less interested in fast cars allows those willing to pay to play a temporary free pass to do otherwise.  It's all headed in the right direction, there.  By the same token, I'll avoid infringing on the limited resource of Spandex, to save it for his bicycle shorts.
> 
> Do what makes you happy, folks.



I wanted to like this, but couldn't quite push the button.  Sorry.

I decided years ago that you can't force anybody to do anything, so it was best to neither try nor to even think about trying.  I have not changed this opinion.

If you want somebody to do something different, make the different thing attractive and compelling and then see what they decide with their free will and get over yourself.

If I think the world needs to electrify transportation, I am not going to do that by regulation, politics, waving a sign or trolling folks.  It will happen when EVs are better and cheaper than other cars, with a lag, and not before.  And then there will still be stragglers, and that's ok. And that day is nigh.

On a more positive note, I disagree with the post...I don't think resources (other than human patience and attention) are particularly limited.  I buy the thesis that engineers are really good at substituting materials and designs as needed, and that the world is both really effing big and pretty unexplored underground.

But unlike the unimaginable bulk of the earth's crust, solid and drillable and mineable to a considerable depth, the earths atmosphere is a whiff of a thing, equivalent to just 10m of solid thickness if you froze it all down.  And all the energy that runs our planet and its climate has to flow through its remarkable transparency.  And so we hit a limit when we try to dump 1000 km^3 of CO2 gas into it every year for more than a century.

I actually think that when we figure out how to have an econosphere and an agrosphere which are neutral to the delicate atmosphere, we will live in a perpetual life of plenty and guilt-free power on demand...the way many of us recall the 'good old days' were, but sustainable, and that will wipe away the old battles about car size, hp, recycling rates and whether we should wear cardigans in the winter or not.


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## begreen (Mar 30, 2018)

Looks like Hyundai is entering this market later this year
https://electrek.co/2018/03/28/hyundai-kona-electric-compact-suv-us-range/


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## woodgeek (Mar 30, 2018)

begreen said:


> Looks like Hyundai is entering this market later this year
> https://electrek.co/2018/03/28/hyundai-kona-electric-compact-suv-us-range/



As is often case, they have announced all the specs except the price.  That and the volume made will make all the difference.


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## Ashful (Mar 30, 2018)

woodgeek said:


> I wanted to like this, but couldn't quite push the button.


Well, it was meant to be half tongue-in-cheek, while leaving you guessing at which half that is.

It won’t be a decade, before anyone buying new cars has at least one EV in their stable.  I’ll always have a big honking ICE, for some sunny day top-down fun, but even I’m eyeing those Tesla sedans for our next daily driver.  For those of us who don’t need a lot of range on a regular basis, they’re really better in almost every way, except that pleasing auditory feedback.


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## begreen (Mar 30, 2018)

woodgeek said:


> As is often case, they have announced all the specs except the price.  That and the volume made will make all the difference.


The design looks like it is more targeted for Korean sales. Interior looks like it would be appealing to North Koreans.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 27, 2018)

jebatty said:


> I Obviously, the best alternative is to be careful not to run the Bolt to 0.


 Dont it have a "limp"  mode with a few extra miles?


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## jebatty (Apr 28, 2018)

Spring has finally arrived in MN and with that mild temps, 40's-60F daytime, although night still dips to below 32F. Also with the rising temps comes the expanding range of the Bolt. Two days ago, on a full charge, travel was 223 miles with 45 miles still showing as available range, for total range greater than the 238 miles spec. I was scoping out camping sites for some bicycle camping planned for this summer. Total miles now 3700+. 

The only change I've made is to turn on "Hilltop Reserve" when I don't need a full battery charge for the next day's travel. Hilltop Reserve does not give a full charge but leaves some battery capacity for immediate regenerative charging. Based on what I've read, the Li-ion battery is likely to last longer if pushing to maximum charge is limited. As far as discharge is involved, that moves around quite a bit based on the travel. Generally I charge every night, sometimes during the day, so that the next day has a well charged battery.

Also, and I don't know whether or not this makes a difference in battery capacity/useful life, I slow down charging to 240V/16A rather than 32A when the slower rate will provide a sufficient charge to cover the next day's expected use. It seems logical that a slower rate will put less stress on the battery.


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## woodgeek (Apr 28, 2018)

jebatty said:


> Also, and I don't know whether or not this makes a difference in battery capacity/useful life, I slow down charging to 240V/16A rather than 32A when the slower rate will provide a sufficient charge to cover the next day's expected use. It seems logical that a slower rate will put less stress on the battery.



I like not charging to 100%, i.e. using hilltop reserve to preserve battery life.

I would NOT sweat the 32A-16A L2 difference.

Basically, during charging you are cramming lithium ions between the atomic layers of a graphite electrode, where they complex with some other ions (like Cobalt).  This cramming causes the material to expand and contract slightly (lithium ions are the smallest possible, so you can cram the most).  Ultimately, this expansion and contraction causes fatigue and cracking that deactivates that little hunk of graphite.  Intuitively, most of this mechanical damage is at the two limits, when the Lithium ions are at a minimum (depleted) and a maximum (100% SOC).

The bolt battery is IIRC a 67 kWh battery (0-100% 'true' SOC) whose charge controller probably only lets you run from 3-93% true SOC and tells you that 3% is empty (0% SOC on dash), and 93% is full (100% SOC).  If you are running 'hilltop' then you are reducing the max true SOC you use to 82-83%.

As for charging speed, the issues are gradients of ions (they can't move fast enough, esp at higher SOC) in the electrode causing stress, and thermal limits.  I don't think either one is significant <0.25C (four hour charging time or longer)  Or <15 kW.  I wouldn't bother charging at 3.5 kW versus 7.


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## spirilis (Apr 28, 2018)

My thought is, for cars with active thermal mgmt that can employ the A/C to chill the battery coolant, I don't concern myself with charge rate much.  I don't pause much before DCFC either.


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## woodgeek (Apr 28, 2018)

The more thoughtful answer is looking at the vehicle engineered DCFC 'taper'.  The Bolt, like all EVs will reduce the rate at which it accepts power in a SOC-dependent way.

From 0-40% SOC, it will charge at up to about 65 kW (about 1.1C), then step down to 42 kW from 40-55%, then down from there...and drop to about L2 speeds (10 kW) for the last from 85-90% up to 100%.  So it takes 7X longer to go 90-100% than it does to go from 10-20%!

This is a poorly understood 'fine print' issue that non-EV people often get surprised by when doing roadtrips.  They max charge speed they tell you is usually only 0-50% SOC.  So the ideal (fastest) road trip mode is to (1) start full at 100%, (2) drive nearly the full range to close to 10% SOC remaining (3) DCFC to only ~60% (4) drive only HALF the stated range of the vehicle (back to 10% SOC), repeat (3) and (4) stopping every HALF of stated range.  For the LEAF this would be 30 miles, and a 15 minute stop (and there aren't that many compatible DCFCs).  For the Bolt this means stopping for 30 mins every 100 miles, with current '50 kW' DCFCs (if available).  New DCFCs are coming on line starting next week that are '150 kW' rated, so when those are built out (slated for mid-2019), it will be a 20 minute stop every 100 miles, more or less.

I think the Bolt taper is VERY conservative and limiting of charge speed (and is 'bad feature' of the Bolt)...my LEAF would charge at almost 2C up to 80%!  That said, they would not have built a 7.2kW onboard charger if that was a concern.


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## woodgeek (May 2, 2018)

Ashful said:


> _edit:  @woodgeek, that plug kit and inflator will be useless when you hit one of our typical PA potholes, and suffer the too-common bent rim or blown sidewall.  I seem to see that, far more often than nail holes, in shouldered cars today._



This was prescient.  Wife hit an 8' wide strip of missing pavement about a month ago.  Car still drove (no TPMS pressure gauge on the winter wheels), then she noticed that one side was getting flat...fortunately, she was within a mile of our Chevy dealership service center.

She ubered home, I drove the summer wheels over there and they mounted them for me.

Damage:  One steelie wheel was badly bent, leaks and the tire sidewall destroyed..total loss.  The other front wheel is also bent, but the tire is holding pressure.  Dealer suggested replacing the wheel and keeping the tire, probably about $250 all told.


----------



## blades (May 2, 2018)

Hate those concave speed bumps  during winter months we get magically appearing convex ones and they do not melt in the spring.


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## Ashful (May 2, 2018)

woodgeek said:


> The more thoughtful answer is looking at the vehicle engineered DCFC 'taper'.  The Bolt, like all EVs will reduce the rate at which it accepts power in a SOC-dependent way.
> 
> From 0-40% SOC, it will charge at up to about 65 kW (about 1.1C), then step down to 42 kW from 40-55%, then down from there...and drop to about L2 speeds (10 kW) for the last from 85-90% up to 100%.  So it takes 7X longer to go 90-100% than it does to go from 10-20%!
> 
> ...



Misunderstood or not, it still makes the EV a poor choice for road trips.  Stopping for 30 minutes every 100 miles is not a feasible mode for anyone trying to cover distance in the great expanse of our country, excepting maybe New England, where the distance between attractions may be less than elsewhere.


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## begreen (May 2, 2018)

Ashful said:


> Misunderstood or not, it still makes the EV a poor choice for road trips.  Stopping for 30 minutes every 100 miles is not a feasible mode for anyone trying to cover distance in the great expanse of our country, excepting maybe New England, where the distance between attractions may be less than elsewhere.


Why we have the Volt. All local driving is 100% electric, yet we can head out on a trip without anxiety. This is particularly important when heading to eastern WA and OR where charging stations are not common and distances are longer. And long mountain grades up to the passes really suck the juice up. The bonus is that the Volt is a really nice highway vehicle too. It's a big improvement from our '06 Prius.

That said, the Bolt has enough range for 90% of all our driving. We could go to Vancouver or Portland on a charge,  so no issue if a two car family.


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## woodgeek (May 2, 2018)

Ashful said:


> Misunderstood or not, it still makes the EV a poor choice for road trips.  Stopping for 30 minutes every 100 miles is not a feasible mode for anyone trying to cover distance in the great expanse of our country, excepting maybe New England, where the distance between attractions may be less than elsewhere.



Two things help...the first 200 miles do not need a stop, and charging to full at your destination (e.g. a hotel).  In the end, it sounds a lot worse than it is.

The 2019 Bolt is slated to have a 80 kWh battery, so 260-270 miles highway range, and will likely accept faster charging (like up to 120 or 150 kW).  This would mean stopping every 120-150 miles for 15 minutes or so, or every 240 miles for an hour (like a meal).  This is basically where Tesla's are at now (best case).


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## jebatty (May 3, 2018)

Given current range options and limited charging infrastructure, both in location and in number of stations, an EV probably is not a good choice for most single vehicle families. But for a two vehicle family, one being a gasoline vehicle, an EV can be an excellent choice for most families. My wife drives our gas fueled vehicle, mainly because that is "her" car, a bit of luxury with an Avalon. Almost all of her driving is local, the exception being road trips and trips to Minneapolis-St. Paul to visit family, and on these we travel together along with our two dogs. I drive the Bolt EV, and all of this driving is also local, and often with my wife. The dogs have not yet traveled in the Bolt.

The other looming issue not only is location but also quantity of DCFC stations. Almost all in the area where I live are single vehicle stations. And if the station is in use, or other EVs waiting to charge, or the station is out of service, what then? Although I have not yet experienced charge stations delays, I can see this coming until infrastructure is more built out, but in the meantime, charging is not like driving up to a gas pump at a station with many pumps, fueling and leaving in 5 minutes. A wait at a gas station is neither common nor long. A long wait at a charging station likely is problematical in most cases.

After 3 months of owning the EV, my range anxiety now is near 0. I come and go when and as often as I like. When home mid-day, with a morning and/or late afternoon/evening travel need, I plug-in to take full advantage of the PV system by using pure solar energy -- this usually will not result in a full charge, and a full charge is not needed. If based on next day travel need for a full charge, I charge at night, either with limited full charge (hill top reserve on) or a 100% charge, as required. This driving and charging routine is near effortless. 

The ideal for both my wife and I would be two EVs, with an available shared gas vehicle for the family trips and probably a rental vehicle with a trailer hitch for our small tear drop travel trailer trips and for the long road trips. Still figuring this out because right now we also have a 3rd vehicle, a 2007 Toyota Camry, which is gas and has a trailer hitch, that vehicle just to handle the travel trailer camping trips, maybe 2-5 per season. I don't like owning that 3rd vehicle, it is used very little, but I also don't want to give up camping. 

Solutions to eliminate the third vehicle are appreciated.


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## Ashful (May 3, 2018)

jebatty said:


> Given current range options and limited charging infrastructure, both in location and in number of stations, an EV probably is not a good choice for most single vehicle families. But for a two vehicle family, one being a gasoline vehicle, an EV can be an excellent choice for most families.



This is the direction I see us eventually going, but given that we typically find it least expensive to just buy our vehicles outright (cash sale, no leasing) and tend to keep them a decade at a time, I’m not sure I’m ready to jump in until we reach more of a plateau in the technology.  It seems an EV purchased today is going to be dramatically out classed by one built three years from now, which really favors a leasing relationship.

Example:  the Tesla X P100D is a sweet little family SUV, but how might those specs improve by the 2022 model year?  That’s a mighty big pill to swallow, watching it’s trade-in value drop dramatically after a new generation of their technology is introduced.  

I’m all fairness, I haven’t actually looked at the depreciation curve of Tesla, versus any ICE, I’m just going on instinct.


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## spirilis (May 3, 2018)

jebatty said:


> The other looming issue not only is location but also quantity of DCFC stations. Almost all in the area where I live are single vehicle stations. And if the station is in use, or other EVs waiting to charge, or the station is out of service, what then? Although I have not yet experienced charge stations delays, I can see this coming until infrastructure is more built out, but in the meantime, charging is not like driving up to a gas pump at a station with many pumps, fueling and leaving in 5 minutes. A wait at a gas station is neither common nor long. A long wait at a charging station likely is problematical in most cases.



I am encouraged by one local initiative; in MD, the state is working to expand DCFC infrastructure (funding going through a firm in Baltimore w/ engineers experienced at installing these things, called EVI) throughout the state and the upcoming installations starting this year will be 4-pedestal installations with the "intent" behind the power grid-connection to support future 120-150kW upgrades (possibly with load-sharing hardware, like what ChargePoint announced a short while ago).  I learned of this after talking to one of the guys at EVI over the phone.

EVI's current installations are (mostly, except newer installations) 1-pedestal like you see most places.  EVgo installations are usually just 1 SAE Combo and either 1 or 2 CHAdeMO, but they're expensive.

Example of one of their recent 4-pedestal installs: https://www.plugshare.com/location/134788


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## woodgeek (May 3, 2018)

Ashful said:


> This is the direction I see us eventually going, but given that we typically find it least expensive to just buy our vehicles outright (cash sale, no leasing) and tend to keep them a decade at a time, I’m not sure I’m ready to jump in until we reach more of a plateau in the technology.  It seems an EV purchased today is going to be dramatically out classed by one built three years from now, which really favors a leasing relationship.
> 
> Example:  the Tesla X P100D is a sweet little family SUV, but how might those specs improve by the 2022 model year?  That’s a mighty big pill to swallow, watching it’s trade-in value drop dramatically after a new generation of their technology is introduced.
> 
> I’m all fairness, I haven’t actually looked at the depreciation curve of Tesla, versus any ICE, I’m just going on instinct.



Fair enough.   Having owned a 22 kWh 'pure' EV and and now a 60 kWh 'pure' EV, I would say it is night and day what 3.5 years gets you.  That said...I don't expect my next EV will have another factor of 3X in battery capacity and range.  It won't have a 180 kWh battery and a 600 mile HW range (I don't think ).

I think there is a mighty fine sweet spot in the 80-100 kWh range (for light duty vehicles)...lots of HP, good range, good DCFC charging speed, can accept 100% of braking energy for regen, battery life works out to be >200k miles (if engineered well).

So the only problem with the MX P100D is the price.  You will get a very similar car in 2022 for less than half the price, or a more lux one for 2/3rds.


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## woodgeek (May 3, 2018)

Behold Electrify America...

https://electrek.co/2018/05/03/electrify-america-map-charging-stations-network/

Phase 1 is to be completed by the end of 2019....





FYI, the 350 kW stations are for EVs with 800V batteries (that currently don't exist).  Current EVs with 400V batteries (nominal) will charge at 150 KW (if they can accept it, the 2017-8 Bolt limits at 80 kW).


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## begreen (May 3, 2018)

Ashful said:


> This is the direction I see us eventually going, but given that we typically find it least expensive to just buy our vehicles outright (cash sale, no leasing) and tend to keep them a decade at a time, I’m not sure I’m ready to jump in until we reach more of a plateau in the technology. It seems an EV purchased today is going to be dramatically out classed by one built three years from now, which really favors a leasing relationship.


We've always bought our cars outright, never leased. Someone here (woodgeek or peakbagger?) suggested leasing when I got the Volt. I didn't and was wrong. Compared to the Prius, the Volt's resale price has dropped fairly sharply. This has happened to the Leaf as well. If I buy another leading edge car I will either lease new or buy a lease return. Technology is changing too rapidly in the auto world. As vehicles go autonomous, it won't even make sense to own a car for many.


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## begreen (May 3, 2018)

woodgeek said:


> Behold Electrify America...
> 
> https://electrek.co/2018/05/03/electrify-america-map-charging-stations-network/
> 
> ...



That's good progress. Just stay out of the Dakotas.


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## jebatty (May 4, 2018)

Lots of great input. I too have followed buy used, 2-4 years old, and keep. In fact our 2007 Camry we just bought in Feb 2018 had 162,000 miles on the odometer. The Bolt is the first car we have bought new since 1986.

I agree that the Bolt likely will be [Ashful] "dramatically out classed by one built three years from now, which really favors a leasing relationship." But I decided to buy rather than lease because the Bolt does cover 100% of local driving and we will be able to keep it for a long time, plus at my soon to be 71 years of age, due to health or other reasons (the longevity tables say I should make it to 94 years) I might not have the opportunity to enjoy an EV the way I do now. It's fun to be a moderately early adopter and our goal to drive our fossil energy usage to near 0 has nearly been achieved. A leased Bolt probably would have met  the same goals, but occasionally a possibly frivolous, non-economic decision better fills a sense of well being.

Incidentally, my wife told me last evening that she agrees we should sell the 2011 Avalon and keep the 2007 Toyota for camping and long distance travel. Still going to wait awhile before executing on this decision.


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## Ashful (May 4, 2018)

woodgeek said:


> So the only problem with the MX P100D is the price.  You will get a very similar car in 2022 for less than half the price, or a more lux one for 2/3rds.


Exactly.  Here’s to hoping Tesla isn’t the only one hitting similar performance numbers, in the near future.

I suspect a large fraction of that price is driven by their costly R&D in the autonomous vehicle tech, in which I not only lack any interest, I absolutely abhor the idea of spending my car dollars to support such an effort.

Today, some of us gripe that our favorite cars are not available with a manual transmission, anymore.  Fifteen years from now, will we be lamenting similarly about the steering wheel?


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## woodgeek (May 5, 2018)

Re Tesla, I hate to make a tired analogy, but it really is like Apple, with 2018 corresponding to the early 90s.

Apple really DID innovate the OS and GUI, starting in the early 80s, the first commercial product with key modern features.   That vision and innovation brought in a bunch of early adopters who were willing to pay a ~30% premium for a completely unique product.  And who remained loyal for a long time.  And who were willing to overlook quite a few flaws. 

And maxed out Apple's market share in the single digits percentage.

And almost went bankrupt in the late 90s, and was highly shorted after Win95 and lower-priced competition capped their market share.

I got lectured by some very smart people in 1991 that real computers didn't need mice, never would, macs were toys, and would be doorstops in three years.

The macs from 1993 did connect to the internet (and were pioneering in their ease of internet use)...but they didn't come with web browsers or wifi.

------------------------------------------------------

There is nothing magical about Tesla's tech or IP....the Roadster was all off the shelf technology like the Apple II, just combined in a new way, and handbuilt in a garage. 

I too am no fan of autonomous vehicles, AVs, probably just showing my age.  They will come, and they will be revolutionary, but it might take a while, and need tech like lidar NOT being built into current Tesla's.

Remember that Apple was the first to sell computers with wifi.  I set up my first wireless router in 2003, so my wife could surf from the couch after giving birth to our second child.  My tech savvy colleages thought that was the stupidest thing they ever heard of in 2003!  I took and set up a wireless router with me when we rented a beach house for two weeks in 2005...and my bro was basically telling his friends about his crazy brother and ROFL for years afterwards.

The way we use computers was changed forever first by the advent of wifi (not tethered to a desk in the 'computer room') so we could have ubiquitous internet in out lives at home....and this was the precursor to ubiquitous internet away from home too (smartphones).

-------------------------------------------------------

So if its 1993 now, the 2017 Bolt is Windows 3.1 (not as good as a Mac II), the 2019 Bolt MIGHT be Windows 95.  And the web doesn't really exist yet, so sales volume is hurt by lack of easy to use critical infrastructure. 

That vehicle infrastructure...ubiquitous and easy fast charging, is going to get built out over the next ten years, and then the speed/convenience will improve, like how we had initial mass adoption of dial up, and then all switched to broadband.

Ten years from now, when that infrastructure is in place, we will have lots of EVs and AVs and get cheap transportation as a service TaaS, which will change how we all use cars, like how wifi changed how we use computers.  Old folks will still use the old model (buying and driving ICE and EV cars), like how my parents had a giant steel-cased desktop wired to a modem in 2005.

Twenty years from now, once we are all aok with ubiquitous TaaS, a new product will emerge that is superior to AVs, like smartphones taking off in 2013.  Maybe that will be Autonomous Aerial Vehicles, or AAVs, implemented solely as TaaS. 

Let's wait and see.


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## jebatty (May 5, 2018)

It was sometime in the 1980's when I took a trip to Hawaii, brought along my disk drive laptop and a very slow (300 baud?) dial-up modem, and communicated with my office in Minneapolis, which would send me letters and documents for my approval, I would edit as needed, and then send them back with final approval. Then the 1200 and next the 2400 baud, and when the 9600 arrived ... well faster and faster. 

It nearly always takes very creative minds and extremely risk acceptance investors, accompanied by early adopters, to move technology forward. It seems to still take about 20 years for an entirely new technology to move from the lab to the mass market. New technology always needs a wide ranging and time consuming support structure to make this move. Our world today faces huge threats and opportunities, any one of which can alter the trajectory of the future in ways yet to be seen.

In the meantime, I don't see the Bolt and other EVs as an entirely new technology, but rather as a material modification of an existing technology: vehicle with driver or driver assist driving with four wheels on roads. In the meantime the Bolt for me is both pretty good and good enough to meet needs which are fairly certain into the near future.


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## Seasoned Oak (May 5, 2018)

begreen said:


> We've always bought our cars outright, never leased. Someone here (woodgeek or peakbagger?) suggested leasing when I got the Volt. I didn't and was wrong. Compared to the Prius, the Volt's resale price has dropped fairly sharply. This has happened to the Leaf as well. If I buy another leading edge car I will either lease new or buy a lease return. Technology is changing too rapidly in the auto world. As vehicles go autonomous, it won't even make sense to own a car for many.


I like the lease deals when tech is changing so fast. I want  new truck but would like a truck with  bolt battery and a small engine for recharge ,a VOLT style truck. It dont exist now but in a few years it might. Probably hard to find  cheap lease on a volt as the leasing companies now know the resale drops fast as well. THe flip side is you can pick up a nice used volt for 10 or12K ,im tempted!


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## begreen (May 5, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I like the lease deals when tech is changing so fast. I want  new truck but would like a truck with  bolt battery and a small engine for recharge ,a VOLT style truck. It dont exist now but in a few years it might. Probably hard to find  cheap lease on a volt as the leasing companies now know the resale drops fast as well. THe flip side is you can pick up a nice used volt for 10 or12K ,im tempted!


Actually, they do exist, but only for commercial leasing. The VIA is based on Volt tech and by the reports I've read quite a nice performer. https://www.viamotors.com/  Workhorse also makes interesting electric trucks. http://workhorse.com/

I've got a couple friends that have scored nice deals on used Volts with only 24-30K miles on them. They are happy campers.


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## woodgeek (May 5, 2018)

The issue re pickups is that you will prob want 200 kWh or more for heavy duty and towing capacity, and that is gonna cost >$30k just for the battery in 2018.

Once light-duty cars and CUVs drive down battery costs...then we will get more SUVs and pickups.


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## Ashful (May 5, 2018)

woodgeek said:


> The issue re pickups is that you will prob want 200 kWh or more for heavy duty and towing capacity, and that is gonna cost >$30k just for the battery in 2018.
> 
> Once light-duty cars and CUVs drive down battery costs...then we will get more SUVs and pickups.



If the EV pickups get sub-3 second 0-60 times, I might get back down to owning just one vehicle.


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## begreen (May 5, 2018)

woodgeek said:


> The issue re pickups is that you will prob want 200 kWh or more for heavy duty and towing capacity, and that is gonna cost >$30k just for the battery in 2018.
> 
> Once light-duty cars and CUVs drive down battery costs...then we will get more SUVs and pickups.


The VIA trucks and vans are hybrids like the Volt but with a bigger genset and 23kW battery. That gives it good 350 mile range, great economy and all-electric local driving for about 40 miles.
https://www.viamotors.com/electric-vehicles.html


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## Seasoned Oak (May 10, 2018)

begreen said:


> Actually, they do exist, but only for commercial leasing. The VIA is based on Volt tech and by the reports I've read quite a nice performer. https://www.viamotors.com/  Workhorse also makes interesting electric trucks. http://workhorse.com/
> I've got a couple friends that have scored nice deals on used Volts with only 24-30K miles on them. They are happy campers.


Iv known about Viamotors for quite sometime. If i could get a good used truck converted for a reasonable amount i may do that, but to add electric drive to a brand new vehicle like via does puts it in the price stratosphere that only fleet users can justify. As someone who puts only 5000,miles year on their main family vehicle, electrification at those prices would not be economically justifiable. Perhaps just for the fun of it performance wise ,but not for the economies.


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## begreen (May 10, 2018)

It'd be a great shop project to strip a Volt down to it's chassis and put a light truck body on it.


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## Seasoned Oak (May 10, 2018)

begreen said:


> It'd be a great shop project to strip a Volt down to it's chassis and put a light truck body on it.


Plus 1000. Like a colorado or S10 body i would think. No more aerodynamics ,but an interesting project.


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## jebatty (May 12, 2018)

I'm bringing the Bolt to the dealer on Tuesday, four days from now, to have the battery calibration system fix applied. Chevy describes the issue as "a condition where the calibration will not detect the difference in the state of charge between the cell groups of the battery.... [and failure] to provide sufficient warning prior to a battery cell low voltage condition, which may result in loss of propulsion." After searching various forums, I remain confused, and I'm not certain whether this is a battery issue, a calibration issue, or both. As I near 5000 miles on my Bolt, everything seems to be OK. Several times I have operated the Bolt down to less than 30 miles of range remaining, with warmer weather I am regularly seeing an estimated range in excess of the rated range of 238 miles, and I have not detected any evidence of a problem. But it would be a real bummer if the range estimate was 50 miles remaining (or less/or more) and suddenly find the battery depleted and "lose propulsion."

Chevy also is providing an over the air (OTA) software fix on the "infotainment" system, those are the systems that operate through the touchscreen. I'm not aware that I have received this fix yet. It is to address several issues, including one where the screen goes dark or freezes. I have had one instance of a screen freeze, which corrected after 2-3 shutdowns and restarts of the Bolt. The freeze left several systems available only through the screen frozen in their then existing state, either on or off or at a particular setting. Reminds me of the "blue screen of death" which has plagued some system software on computers for years, but which I have never experienced. This single screen freeze is the only computer/electrical/mechanical issue I have had with the Bolt so far, other than a windshield washer fluid leak and a driver seat adjustment fix, both existing at the time of delivery of the car, and both of which were quickly fixed by the dealer.


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## Ashful (May 12, 2018)

Good news, jebatty.  

On your note of infotainment systems, I’m glad to see that automakers have been acknowledging some of the customer dissatisfaction with making so many of the cars features only available thru infotainment systems, as well as some of the new studies I’ve seen mentioned in the news about their negative effect on driver distraction.  I’m not “old”, but I guess I sound like it when I complain about the loss of inherent eyes-off tactile feedback of knobs and buttons, with the move to touch screens.  Now I have to take my eyes off the road to tune the radio or change the cabin temperature, functions I used to handle blindly by feel.  

Some cars are worse or better than others, here.  Both of my cars have most of my most-commonly used functions duplicated as old-school buttons on dash or steering wheel, a relatively well thought-out arrangement, but I’ve seen others where the most common functions are buried levels deep in touch screen menus.  Hopefully customer feedback is strong enough on this to drive them toward more sensible compromises.  

On the freezing, I had issues with the 8.4” uconnect system freezing on my 2015 RAM, but then realized it was because my 64 GB sdcard full of music exceeded the indexing capability of that system.  I split the content into two 32 GB cards that I can swap out, and it’s totally resolved, but the issue did create a few days of severely distracted driving, until it was resolved.  The same system in my 2016 car has no issues with 64 GB cards, so improvements were made in the interim year.


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## begreen (May 12, 2018)

So far in 5 yrs no screen freeze-ups with the Volt. There have been hardware issues and dealer issues when we first got the car, but those have been long ago settled. UI design is a pet peever. I totally agree with Ashful about some vehicles having lousy user interfaces and some place way too much dependency on a touch screen for mission critical controls, like climate control. My Ford truck's controls are definitely in this category. The infotainment menus and button access for traversing options are not good. Heater controls were grouped by a visual designer disregarding ergonomics and function.

Poor user interface to me is a major strike against Tesla until their cars are fullly autonomous. The last thing one wants to do when in a downpour at crowded freeway speeds is to have to take one's eyes off the road in order set the defroster properly to defog the windshield.


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## woodgeek (May 12, 2018)

I have updated my Bolt infotainment system from a file I got off the net which I put on a USB stick and plugged into the car.  I think I had one freeze up total before that.  You can reboot it by pressing and holding the home button and one of the adjacent buttons for a few seconds.  Easier than restarting the car.  You can also reboot it while in motion without worry.  The dash stays up.

As for the traction battery issue, it is simple.  About *1%* of 2017/8 Bolts have one or more 'weak' cells, that need to be replaced under warranty.  In a perfect world, the car would detect the weak cell in advance (like days or 100s of miles) of it becoming a problem, and you would go to a dealer.

Unfortunately, while the battery management system correctly functions with healthy batteries, it does NOT consistently detect the weak cell fault until the cell has deteriorated to the point that propulsion is limited.

IOW, you want a 'check engine' light kinda indicator for this...like 'get traction battery serviced soon'.   Instead, the car just loses drive power (but not control) with a message saying something 'drive power reduced'....potentially while you are in motion.  An obvious safety and stranding issue.

So, the software update makes the battery controller better at detecting the rare fault...so you get some warning.  How much warning, they aren't saying.

I'm at 9000 miles and not worried about it.  We'll do the update, but on our schedule.  The wife just did a 270 highway mile drive with two short FC stops and got back home with electronic fumes.

I don't think we have a weak cell right now.

The lore from folks this has happened to is that the guess o meter does some weird stuff before the fault shows itself...like it shows more than normal range per SOC, or looks like it charged faster than you expected.


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## woodgeek (May 13, 2018)

begreen said:


> Poor user interface to me is a major strike against Tesla until their cars are fullly autonomous. The last thing one wants to do when in a downpour at crowded freeway speeds is to have to take one's eyes off the road in order set the defroster properly to defog the windshield.



The Bolt UI is based on the Volt one, of course.  It is a little annoying, some climate controls are buttons, and some are on the screen.  Kinda like real and virtual buttons right next to each other blending the two.  That you get used to.

My gripe is that when in 'R', as when I am backing out of my garage, all the on screen buttons are gone, replaced with the rear view camera.  I usually like to set up the climate control while I am stopped at the end of my driveway waiting for there to be no oncoming cars.  And I can't.  I have to do it before I leave my garage OR after I am underway (e.g. at the next stoplight).  They could've made the camera image a little smaller (the display is 10" wide) and left the buttons there.


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## Seasoned Oak (May 13, 2018)

Im wondering if ill be able to pick up a good used 4 YR old Bolt in 2022 for 10K like the Volt is now.  If gas prices continue on this trajectory ,probably not.


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## begreen (May 13, 2018)

woodgeek said:


> The Bolt UI is based on the Volt one, of course.  It is a little annoying, some climate controls are buttons, and some are on the screen.  Kinda like real and virtual buttons right next to each other blending the two.  That you get used to.
> 
> My gripe is that when in 'R', as when I am backing out of my garage, all the on screen buttons are gone, replaced with the rear view camera.  I usually like to set up the climate control while I am stopped at the end of my driveway waiting for there to be no oncoming cars.  And I can't.  I have to do it before I leave my garage OR after I am underway (e.g. at the next stoplight).  They could've made the camera image a little smaller (the display is 10" wide) and left the buttons there.


The first gen Volts had all climate controls either via the touch screen or the bewildering array (24?) of capacitance touch buttons. My wife still inadvertently hits the wrong buttons, especially with gloves on in the winter. Owners raised their voices and to their credit Chevy listened. The next gen Volt lost the cap touch panel and had the climate control group in analog controls. It's a much better setup. A well design set of controls will have tactile as well as visual cues so that one can change important settings without taking eyes off the road.

The original Volt touch screen UI was proprietary, the new one is Apple Play/Android Auto. I haven't tried that out yet.


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## byQ (May 13, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Im wondering if ill be able to pick up a good used 4 YR old Bolt in 2022 for 10K like the Volt is now.  If gas prices continue on this trajectory ,probably not.



By that time solid state battery technology will be arising. Many will probably want to upgrade to this technology - less weight, more range, safer, and fast charge times. This could cause the lithium battery technology to lose followers. So an "old battery system" car could probably be had at a reasonable price. It will probably be a bit later than 2022 before solid state takes the reins.


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## Seasoned Oak (May 13, 2018)

Just the yearly drop in Li-ion prices alone should help.


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## woodgeek (May 13, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Im wondering if ill be able to pick up a good used 4 YR old Bolt in 2022 for 10K like the Volt is now.  If gas prices continue on this trajectory ,probably not.



I'll vote maybe. The Bolt is a far more capable and durable vehicle than the LEAF, by virtue of its larger battery size and higher efficiency.  I did some research and found some nice sources that predicted a depreciation curve between the LEAF and that of a mid-size ICE car...it came out at ~$15k after 3 years, in 2020.  So maybe you WILL get one for $10k after five years.

I used this residual value to decide to purchase versus lease.


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## CaptSpiff (May 14, 2018)

Not much tech specs, but the Electric Vehicle scene is starting to make me into a believer. Looks like the golf cart designers are out and the adults have entered the room. I can't imagine how nice the EV's will be in 2022 (4 years), but I see the battery (range) capacity going the path of computer RAM, and we'll laugh at today's sub 200 mile EV's.

https://www.greencarreports.com/new...all-electric-luxury-crossover#image=100648553

The only thing missing is cup holders.


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## woodgeek (May 14, 2018)

CaptSpiff said:


> I can't imagine how nice the EV's will be in 2022 (4 years), but I see the battery (range) capacity going the path of computer RAM, and we'll laugh at today's sub 200 mile EV's.
> 
> https://www.greencarreports.com/new...all-electric-luxury-crossover#image=100648553
> 
> The only thing missing is cup holders.



I'm already laughing at sub-200 mile EVs.  

In the warmer weather...by Bolt thinks it can go 260-310 miles.


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## sportbikerider78 (May 14, 2018)

Ashful said:


> Good news, jebatty.
> 
> On your note of infotainment systems, I’m glad to see that automakers have been acknowledging some of the customer dissatisfaction with making so many of the cars features only available thru infotainment systems, as well as some of the new studies I’ve seen mentioned in the news about their negative effect on driver distraction.  I’m not “old”, but I guess I sound like it when I complain about the loss of inherent eyes-off tactile feedback of knobs and buttons, with the move to touch screens.  Now I have to take my eyes off the road to tune the radio or change the cabin temperature, functions I used to handle blindly by feel.



All I want is a car touchscreen to mirror my cell phone.  I think 100% of all car manufacturers entertainment systems suck horribly. Merc, BMW, Audi, Infiniti, GM, all of them.  They are all basically outdated in 2 years as well!
Knowing this, they would be wise to make a module that could be updated.  But, the automotive industry has always lagged technology by 5-10 years.


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## woodgeek (May 15, 2018)

This is what Apple CarPlay and Android Auto do.

Unfortunately, 90% of apps won't run on the car screen....only a subset of approved ones.


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## Ashful (May 15, 2018)

woodgeek said:


> This is what Apple CarPlay and Android Auto do.
> 
> Unfortunately, 90% of apps won't run on the car screen....only a subset of approved ones.



We don’t need you playing Angry Birds or watching Netflix, while driving.  ;-)


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## begreen (May 15, 2018)

woodgeek said:


> This is what Apple CarPlay and Android Auto do.
> 
> Unfortunately, 90% of apps won't run on the car screen....only a subset of approved ones.


Is one of them Waze?


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## woodgeek (May 15, 2018)

begreen said:


> Is one of them Waze?



Waze is ok on Android, but oddly, not allowed on Apple CarPlay (its a Google product).


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## CaptSpiff (May 15, 2018)

Interesting discussion after the article about Automatic Braking and how the computer sampling rate limits the max speed at which it will function (not meaning to hi-jack the thread):

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1116749_tesla-model-3-software-updates-revealed


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## Ashful (May 15, 2018)

Lame.  That prior 50 mph limit on automatic braking had it failing to perform under the circumstances it would be most useful and desired.  And they’re touting their new Bluetooth door unlocking and roadside assistance access features, both of which some less expensive ICE cars have had for many years.    I can unlock my doors, turn on and off headlights, honk the horn, and start the car from anywhere on earth.  Not exactly cutting-edge tech, and i don’t have to be within Bluetooth distance, or wait for it to pair when approaching the car.

One feature I’d like, but don’t have is, “Siri, start my car.”


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## jebatty (May 16, 2018)

Returned yesterday from the visit to the dealer, who installed both the battery monitoring update and the infotainment update. The only change I noticed on the drive home was that the low battery warning color on the estimated range display changed to a darker orange and activated at 40 miles estimated remaining range vs 30 miles before the update.

Warm weather highway driving at 55-60 mph is getting 4.5 to a little over 5 miles/kwh from the battery. Variation appears to be related to terrain and wind conditions. The Bolt is regularly getting 250-300 miles on a full charge.


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## spirilis (May 16, 2018)

Ashful said:


> We don’t need you playing Angry Birds or watching Netflix, while driving.  ;-)


^ WHAT HE SAID....

Although I do wish they'd allow PlugShare for obvious reasons.


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## sportbikerider78 (May 16, 2018)

Ashful said:


> We don’t need you playing Angry Birds or watching Netflix, while driving.  ;-)


Already possible on my phone!  

Autonomous drive WILL happen.  I'd say it will be quite normal in the next 20 years.

Let's face it.  Drivers are HORRIBLE!  I love the driving experience and have a great driving record.  There are many that look at driving as a chore and are constantly distracted by their phone.


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## Ashful (May 16, 2018)

Walked past this scene on my way into the store last night. 





If you can’t see, it’s hood up, plugged in.  In the fire lane.


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## maple1 (May 16, 2018)

Ashful said:


> Walked past this scene on my way into the store last night.
> 
> View attachment 226675
> 
> ...



Plugged into what?


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## sportbikerider78 (May 16, 2018)

maple1 said:


> Plugged into what?


I see a long extension cord on the sidewalk.


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## maple1 (May 16, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> I see a long extension cord on the sidewalk.



Ah, OK - first look, I thought that was a painted line to go with the painted curb.


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## Ashful (May 16, 2018)

maple1 said:


> Ah, OK - first look, I thought that was a painted line to go with the painted curb.



Yep.  Long-ass, likely AWG 14, extension cord running to a nearby store.


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## Seasoned Oak (May 16, 2018)

Cant get much juice thru that cord. Good for a weed whacker maybe. If he had a BOLT he wouldnt need to do that. Could wait till he gets home and not have the guts all over the sidewalk.


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