# Nikolai gets ready to take orders



## begreen (Jun 9, 2020)

The EV truck race just got more interesting. Looks like upstart Nikolai will start taking orders at the end of the month with production starting in September. It's a good looking AWD truck too.








						Nikola Badger
					

Nikola Motor Company’s Badger is a fully-electric and hydrogen fuel cell electric pickup truck.




					nikolamotor.com


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## SpaceBus (Jun 9, 2020)

Looks like a playboy toy more than a functional truck.


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## begreen (Jun 9, 2020)

We'll see once it gets into production. To do some serious off-roading it will need to be tough. Considering that these days maybe 75%(?) of trucks only see light-duty use and are in service more as family vehicles, it may be a good move.


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## SpaceBus (Jun 9, 2020)

begreen said:


> We'll see once it gets into production. To do some serious off-roading it will need to be tough. Considering that these days maybe 75%(?) of trucks only see light-duty use and are in service more as family vehicles, it may be a good move.


I meant as far as the specs. It's a race car that can go off road, not really a family vehicle or a work vehicle. It's a toy that can carry five. My Truck makes a bit over 600 lb/ft of torque, but can pull far more than 8,000 lbs. This is like an electric Ford Raptor competitor.


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## Highbeam (Jun 10, 2020)

I would go higher, like 95% of the time pickups spend on the road could be done with a Honda Civic. But that 5%. That 5% that you need the utility is so important that it makes the lower mpg worth it. I’ve done the math for my driving and it is very much not worth owning 2 vehicles. Now if there was a good rental market for working 1 ton 4wd trucks..,

Soon, a normal looking Toyota 4x4 pickup will be electrified. Then we will have a market.


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## mellow (Jun 10, 2020)

What is that, a class 1 hitch on it


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## begreen (Jun 10, 2020)

We'll see how it does. If it is a hoot to drive I suspect the EV version with 300 mile range will be popular. 


			StackPath


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## peakbagger (Jun 11, 2020)

IMHO, it wins style points over a Tesla cybertruck. The entire hydrogen range extender aspect it questionable. Hydrogen is PITA to handle, my former employer built some of the first hydrogen fueling stations (with really big government grants). Hydrogen is small molecule and it will leak quite readily, special piping techniques are required, even it does not leak hydrogen can cause hydrogen embrittlement  in many common materials like steel.


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## SpaceBus (Jun 11, 2020)

begreen said:


> We'll see how it does. If it is a hoot to drive I suspect the EV version with 300 mile range will be popular.
> 
> 
> StackPath


I'm sure it will be a blast with huge power and face bending acceleration.


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## MTASH (Jun 11, 2020)

I like it, I would be interested for the right price.

Not sure about the playboy toy comment. There are lots of 3/4 and 1-ton diesel pickups out there that are being used as boy toys these days.


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## SpaceBus (Jun 11, 2020)

MTASH said:


> I like it, I would be interested for the right price.
> 
> Not sure about the playboy toy comment. There are lots of 3/4 and 1-ton diesel pickups out there that are being used as boy toys these days.


Sure, but they can also tow tens of thousands of pounds and carry a sizeable payload. This truck can tow 8,000 lbs and a half ton payload. It's like and electric Ford Raptor. Any vehicle can be made into a toy, but this truck starts out that way. 3/4 and 1 ton trucks come off the assembly line ready for work, they don't have to be altered to do so.


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## MTASH (Jun 11, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> Sure, but they can also tow tens of thousands of pounds and carry a sizeable payload. This truck can tow 8,000 lbs and a half ton payload. It's like and electric Ford Raptor. Any vehicle can be made into a toy, but this truck starts out that way. 3/4 and 1 ton trucks come off the assembly line ready for work, they don't have to be altered to do so.


I don't understand what point you are trying to make. Lots of people don't need the extra towing or payload capacity. How is this truck any different than any other light duty truck in that regard?


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## SpaceBus (Jun 11, 2020)

MTASH said:


> I don't understand what point you are trying to make. Lots of people don't need the extra towing or payload capacity. How is this truck any different than any other light duty truck in that regard?


I'm not here to justify myself to you, although I already answered your question. This E-Truck is flashy, expensive, overpowered, and a headline grabber. This is a vehicle for wealthy early adopters, not for doing any work. The trucks you mention might not be doing any work, but that is the primary purpose of the vehicle. The Nikolai E truck is impressive in specs and design, but not really a revolution to pickup truck buyers or the market, but it is a start. I never said I don't like nice toys, just made an observation that this truck is not really for the working person.


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## MTASH (Jun 11, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> I'm not here to justify myself to you, although I already answered your question. This E-Truck is flashy, expensive, overpowered, and a headline grabber. This is a vehicle for wealthy early adopters, not for doing any work. The trucks you mention might not be doing any work, but that is the primary purpose of the vehicle. The Nikolai E truck is impressive in specs and design, but not really a revolution to pickup truck buyers or the market, but it is a start. I never said I don't like nice toys, just made an observation that this truck is not really for the working person.


Flashy, expensive, overpowered and headline grabber describe a lot diesel pickups that are used as toys.  Lots of flashy light duty toy pickups on the market also. Seems to be the trend these days, and that's before people spend thousands on bolt-on accessories. If someone told me 20 years ago that $80,000 pickups would be common, I would've laughed in disbelief. Now I just shake my head in disbelief.

Outside of business or RV use, many people will never tow 8,000# or haul more than 1,000# payload.  I don't think I've ever towed that much outside of a business application. I have a 3/4 ton to haul my slide-in camper.  If it wasn't for that, the truck would be useless to me and I would be back in the light duty market.

How expensive is this pickup? I didn't find any pricing information on that site. Either way I am glad to see alternative vehicles are finally appearing that will appeal to consumers.  Hopefully prices become reasonable as competition develops.


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## SpaceBus (Jun 11, 2020)

MTASH said:


> Flashy, expensive, overpowered and headline grabber describe a lot diesel pickups that are used as toys.  Lots of flashy light duty toy pickups on the market also. Seems to be the trend these days, and that's before people spend thousands on bolt-on accessories. If someone told me 20 years ago that $80,000 pickups would be common, I would've laughed in disbelief. Now I just shake my head in disbelief.
> 
> Outside of business or RV use, many people will never tow 8,000# or haul more than 1,000# payload.  I don't think I've ever towed that much outside of a business application. I have a 3/4 ton to haul my slide-in camper.  If it wasn't for that, the truck would be useless to me and I would be back in the light duty market.
> 
> How expensive is this pickup? I didn't find any pricing information on that site. Either way I am glad to see alternative vehicles are finally appearing that will appeal to consumers.  Hopefully prices become reasonable as competition develops.


It will appeal to a small group of consumers is my point. There are plenty of boat owners, equipment owners, and livestock owners that use their truck to haul and transport the family. You clearly aren't understanding what I'm saying, perhaps we should both approach from a different perspective. The price will undoubtedly be high, it's an 8,000 rocket sled with a 300 mile range that can accelerate faster than most super cars. You are missing that big diesel trucks don't offer dune jumping and felonious acceleration, they are primarily work vehicles even if they aren't used for them. This truck is a toy that can hold five. There is a distinct difference in demographic. This Nikolai truck has a small consumer market, wealthy early adopters that like to hit the trails, but an Ford F series truck sells because it can accommodate many markets. 

You are just one consumer and just because you don't do much with your truck doesn't mean I don't. Obviously a truck is useless to you if you don't have any truck tasks. I live in an extremely rural area and can go through 2,000 lbs of sand in a winter no problem. I regularly use my truck for tasks for which a 1/2 ton or this e truck would be horribly suited for. 

It's odd to me that you would certainly agree that a Lamborghini LM002 is a toy, but this Nikolai truck isn't. A 300 mile Dodge 3500 4x4 dually long bed with an electric drive train would be great, but I have a feeling that most heavy towing situations make things quite hot on the electric drive trains. The torque is very high on the Nikolai, so you know that's not holding it back. 

For the record, I think high five and six figure diesel trucks that don't do any work are very silly, but they aren't toys. That would be like saying a Husky 395xp is a toy just because a normal homeowner has one. It's a tool that's too much for the job is all, much like folks that buy the biggest baddest truck in the subdivision.


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## MTASH (Jun 11, 2020)

Congratulations, you use your truck for what it is intended for.  So do I. Many people don't as several of us have stated, but they blow the money anyway so they can feel proud of themselves for having a bigger, badder, more expensive truck then their neighbor.

I used to think Tesla cars were overpriced flashy novelty toys, but not so much anymore after seeing so many around here, of all places.  One of our local grocery stores just installed a row of charging stations. Tesla has progressed to the point that their vehicles are becoming more and more practical for people.  I think Nikola will get there eventually too.  In fact I explored their website a bit more and they are entering the Class 8 truck market.  Good for them, I hope they succeed.


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## SpaceBus (Jun 11, 2020)

MTASH said:


> Congratulations, you use your truck for what it is intended for.  So do I. Many people don't as several of us have stated, but they blow the money anyway so they can feel proud of themselves for having a bigger, badder, more expensive truck then their neighbor.
> 
> I used to think Tesla cars were overpriced flashy novelty toys, but not so much anymore after seeing so many around here, of all places.  One of our local grocery stores just installed a row of charging stations. Tesla has progressed to the point that their vehicles are becoming more and more practical for people.  I think Nikola will get there eventually too.  In fact I explored their website a bit more and they are entering the Class 8 truck market.  Good for them, I hope they succeed.



Most Tesla vehicles are still for the early wealthy early adopter market. Folks who would otherwise be purchasing luxury cars anyway.  Certainly trucks can be luxury vehicles, but not always. The Nikolai and other efforts from Tesla and the like will definitely be the carrot for wealthy investors, but not the vehicle for working folks.


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## MTASH (Jun 11, 2020)

Tesla shows current inventory of Model 3 starting at $38,990.  Ford Escapes, which I think most would agree are not luxury cars, at my local dealer range from $30,950 to $39,875 depending on options.  So no, not that unaffordable at all in my opinion. A lot of working folks spend more than that on cars.


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## MTASH (Jun 11, 2020)

Slash Gear article

This article states the Nikola Badger is expected to be $60,000-$90,000 depending on options. They haven't released the options list yet so it's difficult to compare.

Local F-150s range from $46,000 - $67,000 so not nearly as much difference as I was expecting.


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## bholler (Jun 11, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> Sure, but they can also tow tens of thousands of pounds and carry a sizeable payload. This truck can tow 8,000 lbs and a half ton payload. It's like and electric Ford Raptor. Any vehicle can be made into a toy, but this truck starts out that way. 3/4 and 1 ton trucks come off the assembly line ready for work, they don't have to be altered to do so.


They no longer can tow that much after people are done modifying the suspension putting oversized wheels and low profile mud tires on them that can't handle the load.    I don't understand your point.  It clearly isn't meant to compete in the 3/4 or one ton market.  But the market they are targeted at is fairly large.   And it is easy to add more load capability and cut luxury items to make a work truck.  But that truck wouldn't draw as much attention.


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## SpaceBus (Jun 12, 2020)

bholler said:


> They no longer can tow that much after people are done modifying the suspension putting oversized wheels and low profile mud tires on them that can't handle the load.    I don't understand your point.  It clearly isn't meant to compete in the 3/4 or one ton market.  But the market they are targeted at is fairly large.   And it is easy to add more load capability and cut luxury items to make a work truck.  But that truck wouldn't draw as much attention.


I didn't bring up the 3/4 and one ton trucks, someone else did. I'm saying the Nikolai truck is basically an electric Ford Raptor. I don't think the market is that large, yet. Once electric trucks come down to basic ICE truck prices and capabilities then they will make sense. I don't think the target market for a truck that can 0-60 in less than three seconds is the same as the market for an entry level F150. 

It's like I'm saying something totally off base, but I don't think I am. The Ford Raptor is definitely not mainstream, but the Nikolai is like a Raptor on steroids. The Raptor also starts at $55k for half the power, but otherwise equal specs. Why would the Nikolai undercut the F150 and how could it? 

Clearly I must be in a different working class than other folks.


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## bholler (Jun 12, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> I didn't bring up the 3/4 and one ton trucks, someone else did. I'm saying the Nikolai truck is basically an electric Ford Raptor. I don't think the market is that large, yet. Once electric trucks come down to basic ICE truck prices and capabilities then they will make sense. I don't think the target market for a truck that can 0-60 in less than three seconds is the same as the market for an entry level F150.
> 
> It's like I'm saying something totally off base, but I don't think I am. The Ford Raptor is definitely not mainstream, but the Nikolai is like a Raptor on steroids. The Raptor also starts at $55k for half the power, but otherwise equal specs. Why would the Nikolai undercut the F150 and how could it?
> 
> Clearly I must be in a different working class than other folks.


I see raptors and lots or top trim level  1/2 ton trucks driving around all the time that aren't to much different in price.  No I am not paying that for a truck but clearly may do.  Many also.buy trucks and then dump another 30000k into them to modify them.  There is a market there.  But as I said this is their entry to the market designed to get allot of attention and create a buzz.  If it goes well we may very well see more selection in trucks from them.


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## SpaceBus (Jun 12, 2020)

bholler said:


> I see raptors and lots or top trim level  1/2 ton trucks driving around all the time that aren't to much different in price.  No I am not paying that for a truck but clearly may do.  Many also.buy trucks and then dump another 30000k into them to modify them.  There is a market there.  But as I said this is their entry to the market designed to get allot of attention and create a buzz.  If it goes well we may very well see more selection in trucks from them.


Yeah, I totally agree with the last sentence, which is what I said earlier as well. Nikolai is trying to make a splash into the market, and I think it's going for the top end of the market, not really the heart of the pick up truck buyers. I'm excited for future entry level electric trucks and utility vehicles, just not this particular truck which is  like a Tesla P100D with a long travel suspension and bed and will cost all the dollars. 
I get that you see a lot of modified trucks, but there are far more that are left stock. The  median income of this country doesn't support $50,000 trucks with $30,000 of aftermarket. You are probably seeing older raptors now that they are on the used market. The new ones start at $55k and get much higher.


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## MTASH (Jun 12, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> My Truck makes a bit over 600 lb/ft of torque, but can pull far more than 8,000 lbs.





SpaceBus said:


> I didn't bring up the 3/4 and one ton trucks, someone else did.



Yes, you in fact did bring it up. Much of this discussion would have never happened if you didn't try to compare two completely different pickups.


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## MTASH (Jun 12, 2020)

Just for reference, all the F-350 trucks on my dealer's lot are $80,000+ and the F-250s are $66,000 - $72,000. There's so many on the road around here that apparently the working man can afford them, so I don't know why a Nikola would be so far out of reach if it accomplishes what many folks actually need a pickup to do.


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## bholler (Jun 12, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> Yeah, I totally agree with the last sentence, which is what I said earlier as well. Nikolai is trying to make a splash into the market, and I think it's going for the top end of the market, not really the heart of the pick up truck buyers. I'm excited for future entry level electric trucks and utility vehicles, just not this particular truck which is  like a Tesla P100D with a long travel suspension and bed and will cost all the dollars.
> I get that you see a lot of modified trucks, but there are far more that are left stock. The  median income of this country doesn't support $50,000 trucks with $30,000 of aftermarket. You are probably seeing older raptors now that they are on the used market. The new ones start at $55k and get much higher.


Yes I am sure that many I see here were bought used by the owner.  But someone bought them new.  And yes many of the diesel trucks that I see driving around modified were also used.   But most are less than 10 years old so even used they still cost well over 30k.  So after modified ( which often seriously compromises the load capacities)  the price is in the range of the truck in question.

We just pad a little over 30k for a basic gas regular cab long bed f250 with 35000 miles.


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## mellow (Jun 12, 2020)

MTASH said:


> Outside of business or RV use, many people will never tow 8,000# or haul more than 1,000# payload.  I don't think I've ever towed that much outside of a business application. I have a 3/4 ton to haul my slide-in camper.  If it wasn't for that, the truck would be useless to me and I would be back in the light duty market.



On the side note its good to see a fellow TC'r on here!  Lance 1191 on an 02 F350 DRW.


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## Highbeam (Jun 13, 2020)

Don’t just assume because a guy drives his f250 to the grocery store that he never uses it for “truck” things. The utility of a truck means it can do both. I hauled and spread 24,000 lbs of gravel yesterday with a dump trailer in my f350 but then I washed it and adjusted my new aftermarket exhaust before parking it. Today I may drive it to Costco where some guy from Montana might think that it’s nothing but a city boy toy. 

Trucks are a huge market and even if they never do a lick of “truck” work the American buyer has my support to like owning one anyway.

Just like the first Tesla, this silly looking etruck will evolve into a normal looking and priced vehicle to serve their market. This concept truck is purposely flashy and ridiculous looking to attract attention.


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## bholler (Jun 13, 2020)

Highbeam said:


> Don’t just assume because a guy drives his f250 to the grocery store that he never uses it for “truck” things. The utility of a truck means it can do both. I hauled and spread 24,000 lbs of gravel yesterday with a dump trailer in my f350 but then I washed it and adjusted my new aftermarket exhaust before parking it. Today I may drive it to Costco where some guy from Montana might think that it’s nothing but a city boy toy.
> 
> Trucks are a huge market and even if they never do a lick of “truck” work the American buyer has my support to like owning one anyway.
> 
> Just like the first Tesla, this silly looking etruck will evolve into a normal looking and priced vehicle to serve their market. This concept truck is purposely flashy and ridiculous looking to attract attention.


Yeah there are times I take a work truck to the grocery store or what ever.  It is still just a vehicle.  Yes they are usually used as trucks but not always.  

But with the work trucks it is pretty clear they are generally used for work.  They have ladders signs tool boxes etc.


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## begreen (Jun 13, 2020)

I think trying to compare the upcoming generation of EV "trucks" and in particular the Cybertruck to a standard pickup truck is not going to work. It's a different vehicle. Much like when Chrysler introduced the mini-van, which wasn't a station wagon or a van,  the Cybertruck may become an icon and a new genre.


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## Highbeam (Jun 13, 2020)

bholler said:


> Yeah there are times I take a work truck to the grocery store or what ever.  It is still just a vehicle.  Yes they are usually used as trucks but not always.
> 
> But with the work trucks it is pretty clear they are generally used for work.  They have ladders signs tool boxes etc.



We call those company trucks around here. Usually have the company name plastered on the body somewhere. Still very capable of work, play, or grocery getting. Maximum utility plus a tax write off. Why get a one trick pony?

A minivan filled a need. What possible need can be filled by a less useful new class of cybertruck? Actually is it any different? It’s just a low capability pickup like a Colorado except with a unique motor.


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## begreen (Jun 13, 2020)

Highbeam said:


> We call those company trucks around here. Usually have the company name plastered on the body somewhere. Still very capable of work, play, or grocery getting. Maximum utility plus a tax write off. Why get a one trick pony?
> 
> A minivan filled a need. What possible need can be filled by a less useful new class of cybertruck? Actually is it any different? It’s just a low capability pickup like a Colorado except with a unique motor.


They will be nice vehicles for hunters, offroaders, bicyclers, fishermen, climbers, etc. It will fit an ATV which may be the biggest load it carries and can tow a small trailer if need be. All while silent running.


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## bholler (Jun 13, 2020)

Highbeam said:


> We call those company trucks around here. Usually have the company name plastered on the body somewhere. Still very capable of work, play, or grocery getting. Maximum utility plus a tax write off. Why get a one trick pony?
> 
> A minivan filled a need. What possible need can be filled by a less useful new class of cybertruck? Actually is it any different? It’s just a low capability pickup like a Colorado except with a unique motor.


They have atleast the same capabilities that all of the 1/2 ton short bed trucks that dominate the truck market have as far as hauling.  And far more performance.

Given the choice I generally don't drive any of our 3/4 or one ton trucks unless I need to.  They just don't drive as nice as lighter duty stuff or cars.


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## begreen (Jun 13, 2020)

bholler said:


> They have atleast the same capabilities that all of the 1/2 ton short bed trucks that dominate the truck market have as far as hauling.  And far more performance.
> 
> Given the choice I generally don't drive any of our 3/4 or one ton trucks unless I need to.  They just don't drive as nice as lighter duty stuff or cars.


They also consume a lot more fuel, are not much fun to park in smaller parking lots or in the city when looking for parking. It's one of the reasons I sold the F150. Too big for day to day driving. Yes it can be done, but not a good fit in many circumstances. It was a nice truck and had gobs of power, even with the camper on it, but I found myself driving it very little except when I had a truck specific task to do.


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## MTASH (Jun 15, 2020)

mellow said:


> On the side note its good to see a fellow TC'r on here!  Lance 1191 on an 02 F350 DRW.



Thanks! '95 Lance on a '06 F-250 V-10 here.


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## MTASH (Sep 13, 2020)

GM now has a stake in Nikola...









						GM takes a $2 billion stake in Nikola to make electric pickup trucks
					

GM and Nikola announce a partnership worth billions that gives GM a seat at the table and a partner in the commercial EV heavy-duty truck space.



					www.freep.com


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## begreen (Sep 14, 2020)

MTASH said:


> GM now has a stake in Nikola...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not only a stake, they will be building them and providing the battery pack. Makes one wonder what GM is getting out of this besides a name. Commercial truck contracts?


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## maple1 (Sep 17, 2020)

NKLA has turned into quite the drama story.


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## peakbagger (Sep 17, 2020)

The new way to loose a retirement is investing in SPACs, The acronym sounds harmless but its the latest way for wall street to grab a hold of peoples savings with little or no responsibility. Special Purpose Acquisition Companys (SPACs) used to be restricted to high asset investors that had to prove that they could lose the investment and not impact their lifestyle. The rules got changed and now any investor can invest in SPACs. The SPACs can be set up by any financial firm. They announce broad outlines of what they want to invest in but they are just aspirations not guarantees. Once they find a new private company, they merge the assets of the SPAC into the company and then the goal is go out for an IPO. The people running the SPAC can charge whatever up front fees and loads they want on the investment. There is intentionally little SEC oversight and if things go bad unless an investor can prove outright fraud they are out of luck. 

In the case of several current SPACs they have piles of money and are aggressively looking for place to spend it. In many cases they could care less if its a viable company they are partnering with, all they need is a good enough story to get to an IPO and let other suckers buy the stocks. Its important to note that even though a SPAC states an aspirational goal like they are going to merge with company that will solve the worlds climate crisis, they are completely able with no oversite to buy something completely different so someone wanting to invest in clean energy could end up investing in coal mine. I seriously doubt that any investment advisors who have fiduciary responsibility could recommend a SPAC to typical investor.  

The standard advise my dad had for investing is do not invest in it if I didn't understand it. I will stick with John Bogles strategy, a small investor has no hope of beating the market in the long term, the best option is to buy the market through index funds and hope to match the results


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## begreen (Sep 17, 2020)

peakbagger said:


> The new way to loose a retirement is investing in SPACs, The acronym sounds harmless but its the latest way for wall street to grab a hold
> 
> The standard advise my dad had for investing is do not invest in it if I didn't understand it. I will stick with John Bogles strategy, a small investor has no hope of beating the market in the long term, the best option is to buy the market through index funds and hope to match the results


Did you mean to post this in the Inglenook?


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## peakbagger (Sep 17, 2020)

Nikola is funded by SPAC 









						Nikola executes reverse merger with VectoIQ; now to be listed on NASDAQ; BEV and FCEV trucks
					

Nikola Corporation, a designer and developer of BEV and FCEV Class 8 trucks is executing a reverse merger with VectoIQ Acquisition Corp. to create a company focused on the development of next generation smart transportation. VectoIQ Acquisition Corp. (Nasdaq:VTIQ) is a $230-million publicly...



					www.greencarcongress.com


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## peakbagger (Sep 21, 2020)

Nikola Founder Resigns as Chair Amid Allegations, SEC Probe
					

(Bloomberg) -- Nikola Corp., the electric-vehicle startup that recently partnered with General Motors Co., said its founder stepped down as executive chairman, coming just days after the company was reported to be the focus of investigations by U.S. regulators following a highly critical...




					www.yahoo.com
				




My prior post appears to be few days early.


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