# Anyone ever get an energy assessment or inspection to get increased heat efficiency?



## tickbitty (Jul 28, 2011)

We have a fairly small brick ranch house and a decent sized stove.  The heating could be better though. I think we have some insulation deficiencies and possibly a few other issues.  When we moved in we used oil heat but the furnace croaked so we went to heat pump/AC installed in attic and added woodstove too.  The whole way the house works has changed now, as the underside/crawl space of the foundation and the utility basement no longer have heat in them, and there's no insulation under the floor.  We have some insulation in the attic, but got a new roof and I don't think the insulation up there is great either.  So I just wondered if it would be worth it to have some kind of energy assessment this year to see if we could get some improvement in our heating/cooling efficiencies.  Any of you ever try that?


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## begreen (Jul 28, 2011)

A professional energy audit can be very helpful. They should do a blower door test which can uncover a lot of leaks.


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## Highbeam (Jul 29, 2011)

Not all energy audits will include a blower door test. Our power utility company sent a man to our house to do an energy audit. Other than his cool infared heat sensing camera, the audit was of little benefit. He did give us a low flow showerhead for free but no blower test. I do believe that a blower test would be an excellent way to determine the tightness of your home, a quality that is impossible to see without a blower test. 

It is very easy to find out what insulation level you have in your home's attic, floor, and walls. Then it is also easy to find out what they should be. If different then make the upgrade. 

It is very easy to find out the efficiency ratings of your appliances and compare that to modern versions to consider return on investment for the upgrade. 

If you can get the audit done for free then I would say do it, nothing to lose. If you can pay a bit for a blower door test then that is even better.


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## karl (Jul 29, 2011)

I have a friend who works for Weatherization Works.  That's the government home insulation thing.  He says the door test is great.  He has hooked it up to houses and you could feel the breeze from the leaks.  The one problem is that it finds the big leaks first and you don't notice all the little leaks unless you have a second one done.  He's going to hook it up to my house in a few months.  He told me to get some spray foam and go seal ever leak I can find.  That way the house will be pretty tight when he comes and he'll be able to find all the small ones that I missed.


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## peakbagger (Jul 29, 2011)

NH has a great deal these days. Assuming exceed the current standard for energy consumption for the house, the audit is $100 and they do a blower door and multiple other tests. They also supply you with a contractor estimate to get the work done and rebate the $100 if you implement the recomendations and rebate 50% of the cost of the renovations. The only hassle is that you need to document the prior two years of energy use and since I cut and split my own wood I dont have receipts (but do have some oil receipts).  

I havent applied but plan to one of these days. I know I need my sills sprayed so if I can get 50% rebate its worth it.


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## laynes69 (Jul 29, 2011)

We had a blower test done for free from our local electric co-op. I thought our home was fairly tight until they did the audit. What we found was the areas I was going to concentrate on werent leaky. It saved me time an allowed me to concentrate my efforts on the large leaks. Since then I airsealed our attic and various other places they recommend. I still need to hit the basement as well as a couple of rooms. Even though they rated our home drafty as a barn, there was a home a few miles away that was new and had more infiltration than ours. I didn't feel too bad then about our 150+ year old home. Whenever I get the problem areas finished, I want another one so I can see the difference. They didn't use an infared cam, which would have also been helpful. Either way it's a fine diagnostic tool that will allow you to see what needs done. It's made a good difference in our comfort and we still have room for improvement.


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## begreen (Jul 29, 2011)

Both have their place. The blower door test checks for air leaks. The infrared imaging (FLIR) checks for heat radiation leaks. FLIR imaging is pretty good, but I would think that it would be most effective when done in winter to show the strongest thermal differences. The blower door test can be done all year.


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## fishingpol (Jul 29, 2011)

I had one done through my elec and nat gas provider.  The subcontractor was great, put extra insulation in the attic, and insulated a few walls that I did not gut out when I bought the house.  Airsealing was also done, which I was surprised to see some of the areas they found that leaked air.  The blower door test was done before and after with great results.  They also did a combustion test on the boiler to make sure the house still let in make-up air.  About 3/4 of the insulation cost was paid by the utility.  I found it well worth it.


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## benjamin (Jul 31, 2011)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> . I do believe that a blower test would be an excellent way to determine the tightness of your home, a quality that is impossible to see without a blower test.



Any good insulator/energy auditor/contractor should be able to "see" how leaky a home is for all practical purposes.  A photo taken by a realtor from the street is enough to rank most houses fairly accurately on a leakiness scale, a look through the attic and at the sill plate will detect most of the leaks that the blower door and camera will find. 

If you're the guy in MS heating with free wood, a blower door test is completely unnecesary.  On the other hand, if you're spending most of your energy on AC in VA with ductwork in the attic...  get the blower test.


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## begreen (Jul 31, 2011)

A street look is not going to tell you diddly about how well a house is sealed. Our house is 87 years old, but it has had a lot of work put into sealing leaks. Agreed that a good visual inspection of the areas mentioned, plus door and window sealing, outlet gaskets and inspection of other penetrations in the house envelope like recessed cans will provide a good start toward tightening up a house. This followed by a blower door test can find other places you may have missed.


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## tickbitty (Aug 3, 2011)

Thank you all very much for this input.  I looked for some listings of folks who do this in my area, it does not appear to be very common - so I will keep looking..  I know we had an energy audit done where I work, but it was quite expensive (it also saved quite a bit of money though.)  I will check into the energy companies, but it doesn't look like they do them.


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## begreen (Aug 3, 2011)

Your power company or nat gas co may have info. If not, check with your community associations or municipal govt.


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## woodchip (Aug 5, 2011)

Our local council did an energy survey a while back using infrared pictures taken from an aircraft. 

The idea was that all the roofs around the area shown in red were emitting a lot of heat, and the blue roofs showed the well insulated houses. 

Our roof was nice and blue, but a neighbours shed was showing bright red. 

Just shows, if you are going to grow certain herbal plants in a shed, you really ought to insulate it well......... ;-)


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## bogydave (Aug 5, 2011)

Got one a few years ago. Good deal. Identified several areas I would not have improved.
 Alaska had an energy policy to improve efficiencies.
If you got the audit, did the recommendations, you got some reimbursed $$ for the audit & for the upgrades made.
Fed gov. had one about then also with tax credits. 
Got a few new things done to the house & saved allot of money doing it. Still saving!

Worth the expense; Yes! 
Even with out the incentives, if you upgrade & repair some heat loss areas identified in the inspection, it pays you back yearly,  from now until you sell the house.


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## mikefrommaine (Aug 8, 2011)

I had an energy audit and blower door test done. When they cranked up the blower interior doors started slamming shut and you could easily feel all the problems spots.
My house was/is considered leaky (6000 cfm at 50 pascal -- 3500 sq ft of living and 2100 in the basement) 

I am working on the problem areas (attic eaves intersection, sills and recessed lights) But I am not expecting huge payback. According to the auditor each cfm of air leakage that I can seal up will save me $3.35 over the next 30 years. So if I can cut the leakage to 3000 cfm at 50 pascal then I will save $10,050 over 30 years. Or $335 a year. Those numbers are before expenses and at todays energy costs.

He went on to say there projections show that if  I fixed all the problem areas than my oil consumption would be reduced but the bill would about the same due to rising energy costs.


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## jimbom (Aug 8, 2011)

mikefrommaine said:
			
		

> ...
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> He went on to say there projections show that if  I fixed all the problem areas than my oil consumption would be reduced but the bill would about the same due to rising energy costs.



What a fun guy.


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## benjamin (Aug 8, 2011)

JimboM said:
			
		

> mikefrommaine said:
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Definitely to honest to be a politician, but you really do have to be specific when working with homeowners, the work will make the house more efficient, they won't necessarily have lower bills if the thermostat setting changes or if prices change or if the next winter is colder.


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## jimbom (Aug 8, 2011)

benjamin said:
			
		

> ...
> Definitely to honest to be a politician, but you really do have to be specific when working with homeowners, the work will make the house more efficient, they won't necessarily have lower bills if the thermostat setting changes or if prices change or if the next winter is colder.



I agree.  Even when you are dead level accurate with your assessment, they often remember only what they wanted to hear, not what they were told.  Too honest to be a politician - faint praise indeed.


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## Highbeam (Aug 8, 2011)

Just keeping your oil bill the same in the face of rising oil costs is a major accomplishment. Had you done nothing, your heating cost would have risen along with the price of oil. 

Wasting expensive energy can be a business decision. You need good information and then you can decide on your course of action.


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## mikefrommaine (Aug 8, 2011)

benjamin said:
			
		

> JimboM said:
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I am planning to do the improvements -- but I was disappointed to hear there was not room for giant gains. Basically I will save the equivalent of about 100 gallons of oil. Which is a worthy goal, but if I were to hire the work I would spend more than I would save  (at current prices)


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## Highbeam (Aug 8, 2011)

Wait a minute. You might spend more than you save the first year but what about the next years? In ten years that 100 gallons of oil will be 1000 gallons. Does 1000 gallons of oil savings, even at current prices, pay for those one time efficiency investments?


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## mikefrommaine (Aug 9, 2011)

I am sure that I am not explaining this as well as the auditor did. But this is my understanding -- every cfm/at 50 pascal of air sealing that I do will result in a savings of $3.35 over 30 years or about 11 cents a year.

The goal for my house is to cut the leakage in half. Which would result in a savings of $10,050 total over 30 years if energy costs stay even. Once you take into account the cost of doing the air sealing the savings are not that great. He felt that if I had someone do all the work it would cost "close to or more than" 10k

The auditor was independent and I feel honest.  My house is 8 years old and was built more or less to code. Plenty of insulation and typical lack of attention to air sealing when it was built. There were no great surprises such as walls missing insulation or giant holes in the thermal envelope. Just little details that add up. Which will be time consuming, dirty dusty work to fix.
He was much more concerned with the basement and attic then the middle floors -- said that leaks at the top and bottom were exacerbated by the stack effect. If you can seal up the basement and attic then less cold air will be pulled through the living space.

An example of one recommendation -- I have a bunch 25+ can lights in the vaulted ceiling and second floor ceiling. Said the fiberglass insulation needs to be removed from the joist bays in the vaulted ceiling that have can lights (use a piece of strapping with a hook on the end to pull out) and have dense pack blown in. In the attic remove the insulation around the lights and build boxes out of rigid foam around them, seal with spray foam, re insulate with loose fill.  

You can obviously play with the numbers and make the payback look better (or worse)


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## woodgeek (Aug 9, 2011)

Crunching your numbers, with the assumption that your typical natural leakage is the 50 Pa rate divided by 20, and you have 5000 ddays of seasonal heating, you are losing 36 MMBTU/yr to air leakage.  If you cut that in half, you would save 160 gals/yr, $500/yr, conservatively.  Pretty much in line with your guy's estimate.  The 30 yr thing seems specious, neglecting compound interest, which is favorable in this case.

IMO, your leakage is pretty _low_ compared to old construction--I am estimating you at ACH_nat, natural air changes per hour = 0.5.  My 1960s split level started out at ~1.3, and is now at 0.5 after a few years of DIY work.  Starting to approach a diminishing return case.


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## Don2222 (Aug 9, 2011)

tickbitty said:
			
		

> We have a fairly small brick ranch house and a decent sized stove.  The heating could be better though. I think we have some insulation deficiencies and possibly a few other issues.  When we moved in we used oil heat but the furnace croaked so we went to heat pump/AC installed in attic and added woodstove too.  The whole way the house works has changed now, as the underside/crawl space of the foundation and the utility basement no longer have heat in them, and there's no insulation under the floor.  We have some insulation in the attic, but got a new roof and I don't think the insulation up there is great either.  So I just wondered if it would be worth it to have some kind of energy assessment this year to see if we could get some improvement in our heating/cooling efficiencies.  Any of you ever try that?



I can tell you what I found myself that would apply in your case.
When I got a new roof they cut a ridge vent and my house felt colder.

Since that is code now I needed a Code Heat fix! LOL

So I did 2 things
1. Installed a soffit strip vent, rafter vents and stapled foil over the rafter vents!

2. The I built plywood doors to close up the Gable vents in the winter!

What a difference those two items made! The snow does not melt and cause ice damns on the roof anymore and I am much warmer in the winter!
The foil makes the whole house 10 Degrees cooler in the summer and the air conditioning works much more efficiently!!
See my pics here  https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/68155/


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## jharkin (Aug 22, 2011)

I just had one of these assessments done by Mass Save  - which is our state outfit that does these funded by the utilities.

They evaluate everything - insulation, sealing, windows, lighting, appliances, water use - but its just a visual check, at least the initial assessment. Improvements in insulation, air sealing and windows can be done directly through their contractors and subsidized. Small things like CFL bulbs and low flow faucets they give out free on the day of the inspection.

In our case we already have CFLs, new appliances and storm windows so we concentrated on insulation.  About 1/3 of my exterior walls are empty, and the finished second floor attic has only 2in of 1950s cellulose batts. They wrote up a proposal to insulate all of it -  Dense pack cellulose blown into the walls and slope ceilings, loose fill in the attic floor and polyiso behind the second floor kneewalls.  All with appropriate damming and air barriers put in. They are also going to do extensive air sealing before the insulation.

In our case the insulation work  to be done is quite extensive... the proposal I got:

Insulation work & air sealing: $3500
NSTAR incentives: $(2000)
Out of pocket: $1500
tax credit @ 10%: $(150)
Net: $1350   - can be financed at 0% for 24 months

Estimated yearly savings on gas/electric bills:  $800

I'm sure the savings estimate is high but even if its only half of that I'm still looking at a quick 3-4 year payback.

I can either pick my own contractor or just let them take care of it in which case they do all the scheduling and the incentives get paid directly. Plus they re inspect after the job.

They do a blower door after the improvements usually - but in my case they are giving me a hard time about that part because they are concerned about asbestos pipe insulation dust (even though I showed them that it was all professionally removed by an abatement firm 6 years ago).


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## fishingpol (Aug 23, 2011)

Jeremy,

We had Masssave done a few years ago.  Their subcontractor was excellent for airsealing and insulation.  A nice group of guys, very professional and cleaned up well.  They must be putting in quite a bit of insulation for that price.  It is well worth it.  Their air seal guy found all sorts of penetrations that I was not aware of.  They sealed every pipe and wire penetration going up through the floors.  Just the air sealing alone was an eye opener and worth it.  

I think you will find their subcontractor good, as this program is a huge account for them, and they do not want any bad customer experiences to lose that account.

I need to remove my existing can lights in my kitchen.  The were pulling a bit of air up through the fixtures and into the framing.


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## jharkin (Aug 23, 2011)

Yes its a fair bit.   

We have about 40 linear feet of uninsulated outer walls on the first floor to get blown in.
30 ft outer wall on the second floor gable ends.
50-60 linear ft x 6ft of slope ceiling on the second floor.
~ 50 ft of kneewall and kneewall floor space on the second floor

Probably close to 900 sq ft total of wall and ceiling area to be insulated.

If cone all over the house with spray foam and caulk sealing everything I could find but Im sure the pro's will find a lot more.


Funny you mention the can lights, I have the same problem. We have 4 old uninsulated can lights in the kitchen cathedral ceiling that I believe are not only loosing heat but are a big culprit in my ice dam problem. I'm going to put in airtight IC cans, pack insulation behind them and try those new Home Depot LED floodlights @ $29.  That should make a big difference.


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## fishingpol (Aug 23, 2011)

When the Massave guy blew cellulose int the walls near my kitchen, some of it went up against the cans over my sink and overheated them.  Those are already replaced with pendant ceiling fixtures.  The ones down the middle are next.  

Led lights are interesting.  I may wait until the price drops a bit more.


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## Jaugust124 (Aug 24, 2011)

Interesting thread.  I'm actually getting one done tomorrow.  No cost for the audit. Paid for by NYS.  I'll post the findings and details of the inspection.


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## velvetfoot (Aug 24, 2011)

Paid for by NYS?  Is that when upgrades are performed?


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## velvetfoot (Aug 24, 2011)

I answered my question, I think-just looked at the NYSERDA stuff, and it seems not too hard to qualify.  I sent in the electronic form.  Let's see what happens.


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## Jaugust124 (Aug 24, 2011)

The auditor showed up today at 9:00 as expected and was at my house until just about 1:00.  He concentrated on the insulation in my home and performed a variety of tests, including the blower door test, and then brought me around the house to show where air was leaking using the smoke test.  
He expressed concern for several areas that could use some insulation, but to my surprise did not recommend new windows.  Mine are original to the house, 1971, single pane with storms.   

He was a very nice guy who answered all my questions and made sure to point out a variety of things to me with full explanations.

I will have more information when I get the full report in about a week.

Velvetfoot,  did you remember to include your utility bills?
I got a response from NYS within a day or two, so I would expect you will be hearing from them very quickly.

Good luck.


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## jharkin (Aug 25, 2011)

Jaugust124 said:
			
		

> but to my surprise did not recommend new windows.  Mine are original to the house, 1971, single pane with storms.



Thats good... means the guy knows his stuff and is not just a window salesman.   good luck.


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## semipro (Aug 25, 2011)

Jaugust124 said:
			
		

> The auditor showed up today at 9:00 as expected and was at my house until just about 1:00.  He concentrated on the insulation in my home and performed a variety of tests, including the blower door test, and then brought me around the house to show where air was leaking using the smoke test.
> He expressed concern for several areas that could use some insulation, but to my surprise did not recommend new windows.  Mine are original to the house, 1971, single pane with storms.
> 
> He was a very nice guy who answered all my questions and made sure to point out a variety of things to me with full explanations.
> ...



Did he perform thermal imaging?

I'm a proponent of addressing air leakage first but conductive heat losses need to be considered also.


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## velvetfoot (Aug 25, 2011)

Hi Jaugust124.

The form didn't ask for bills, so I called up the fuel oil guy I used and got the gallons used and got the electric usage from the utility web site;  hopefully that's good enough.
I think I'm pretty well set for insulation but I'm interested in the leakage.


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## Jaugust124 (Aug 25, 2011)

Semipro,
No thermal imaging was done.  He did not have the equipment.  I did ask him about it though, kind of got a vague response. Something about usually that is done for much older homes.  Perhaps he did not want to but the equipment.  I imagine its fairly pricey.  
He did spend time searching out the amount of insulation in the house.  I mentioned to him that I had some pretty big ice dams last year and while we were in the attic he pointed out my need for some better air flow up there, particularly near the soffits.  I have about r-38 in the attic, but probably could use a little more while I'm at it. 

Velvetfoot, near the bottom of the application it mentioned in small print that you should include 12-24 months of utility bills.  At least the application I filled out did.  Good luck and let us know how you make out.


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## Jaugust124 (Aug 25, 2011)

Forgot to mention - today I spent a few hours caulking around the outlets and adding the foam covers behind the outlets and switches.  Caulked the sill plate in the basement and started adding some insulation to the hot water pipes.  When that's done, I think I am going to insulate the attached portion of the garage.  Not sure what to use though.  Maybe someone could clue me in.  Should I go with the 1" foil backed which adds an r value of 6ish I think or go with the 1" blue stuff. I think the r value is about the same as I recall.  Any advice would be appreciated.


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## velvetfoot (Aug 26, 2011)

Only certain foam can you leave exposed, and in a garage?  Who knows?

I think those kid protectectors that you plug in also stop some breeze.

Since I had fiberglass blown in over the existing 38 batt (I think), I'm reluctant to even look in the attic.  Not that I wasn't before.

-Still no response.  I had sent the form in by email.


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## Jaugust124 (Aug 26, 2011)

Regarding the foam insulation in the garage, I was just looking online and read that that might be an issue.  I know I've seen it done, but I don't know what the code is around here.  I will call the local building inspector tomorrow.
I was also checking to see what is recommended for attic insulation in our area and I found anywhere from R-38 to R-60 depending on the website.  Sounds like you're attic is in good shape.


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## woodgeek (Aug 26, 2011)

Did the inspector look under the insulation?

If you have ice dams in an R-38 attic, then you definitely have zero ventilation to the outside, a large airleak to the conditioned space that needs to be fixed by airsealing, or both.

Finding the leaks under the insulation can be a lil tricky--I had the same problem. I used a combination of looking at snow melt patterns on my roof, an IR thermometer (which showed a small increase in temp, ~1Â°F, on the insulation /decking above the leaks), and thinking about the framing of my house.  Start on the plumbing stack and chimney. We go after can lights and junction boxes and outlets, but I had 100x those leaks built into my framing and buried under insulation.


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## Jaugust124 (Aug 26, 2011)

The inspector looked under the insulation where he could.  The attic doesn't have much of a floor in it, so its tough to really get around up there.  He mentioned that the eaves of the attic looked mostly blocked with insulation, restricting the air flow.  He suggested installing rafter vents to allow air flow.  I would imagine there are likely some air leaks as well.  He did spot one area that showed some discolored insulation, which he stated was a sign of an air leak.  Oddly, it was not above any vents or holes in the ceiling whatsoever.  Not sure why there would be an air leak above an enclosed ceiling, unless its being drawn in from another source.


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## semipro (Aug 26, 2011)

Jaugust124 said:
			
		

> Forgot to mention - today I spent a few hours caulking around the outlets and adding the foam covers behind the outlets and switches.  Caulked the sill plate in the basement and started adding some insulation to the hot water pipes.  When that's done, I think I am going to insulate the attached portion of the garage.  Not sure what to use though.  Maybe someone could clue me in.  Should I go with the 1" foil backed which adds an r value of 6ish I think or go with the 1" blue stuff. I think the r value is about the same as I recall.  Any advice would be appreciated.



I've always wondered just how effective sealing outlets and such is.  Its seems to me that its better to put your efforts into sealing the outer envelope of the house than to try and address leaks that have already gotten past that envelope.  I'm not saying I don't seal outlets, I do.  When i do it I always wonder if I'm just not forcing the infiltrating air to come in somewhere else (e.g. the baseboards, around door and window trim).  

With respect to the foam:  I would take into account that the foil creates a vapor barrier (unless its perforated).  Foam without foil reduces vapor intrusion but not entirely.  You don't want to create water problems where you had none before.


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## semipro (Aug 26, 2011)

Jaugust124 said:
			
		

> Semipro,
> No thermal imaging was done.  He did not have the equipment.  I did ask him about it though, kind of got a vague response. Something about usually that is done for much older homes.  Perhaps he did not want to but the equipment.  I imagine its fairly pricey.
> .



If he'd have done thermal imaging he would probably have noted the losses through the single glazed windows.  However, if the storms seal well enough it might not be that bad, maybe even comparable to basic double glazed windows.

Thermal imaging also helps identify air leaks and voids in insulation.


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## Jaugust124 (Aug 27, 2011)

Talked to the local building inspector today about insulating the garage wall attached to the house.  Its already been sheet rocked, so I thought I would just slap some 1" foam on top of it with construction adhesive to get an extra R-6.  Being that its in the garage, all the rules change.  The insulation does need to be fire resistant according to the building inspector, but he wasn't exactly sure of the particulars.  He did mention that fire resistant paint would alleviate any problems.  That stuff runs about at least $60 per gallon.  One gallon would probably do it though.  Benjamin Moore makes some as does Sherwin Williams.    

What's everyone's opinion on the effort and cost versus the return?  I would probably need about 5-6 sheets of insulation, the construction adhesive and the paint.  If I figure roughly $20+- per sheet of 1" insulation, $5 per tube of adhesive - 3 tubes, and the paint $65.  I'm pushing the $200+ point.  The wall would be easy enough to cover.  There are no outlets, shelves, or other major obstacles to work around, and the chimney takes up a good portion of wall space.  I would be gaining the R-6 in a wall that I believe has 3.5" fiberglass in it already which should be an R-11.  

So the questions still stands, Is it worth it?


By the way, I would like to apologize to the moderators as I feel like I have hijacked this thread.


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## jharkin (Aug 27, 2011)

The air sealing is not just about stopping air coming in. In the heating season its more about stopping warm air getting out.  In that regard sealing all penetration from the inside, including outlets, is important to help prevent warm humid indoor air get into the wall cavities where it can trap moisture in the insulation.


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## woodgeek (Aug 27, 2011)

Jaugust124 said:
			
		

> The inspector looked under the insulation where he could.  The attic doesn't have much of a floor in it, so its tough to really get around up there.  He mentioned that the eaves of the attic looked mostly blocked with insulation, restricting the air flow.  He suggested installing rafter vents to allow air flow.  I would imagine there are likely some air leaks as well.  He did spot one area that showed some discolored insulation, which he stated was a sign of an air leak.  Oddly, it was not above any vents or holes in the ceiling whatsoever.  Not sure why there would be an air leak above an enclosed ceiling, unless its being drawn in from another source.



IF you google 'attic airsealing' you will get a lot of helpful info....but in a nutshell, you want to airseal the floor of your attic from the conditioned space.  The primary air barrier is going to be the drywall under the joists (fiberglass does NOT airseal).  The major leaks in this envelope are usually left by the framers who built the house--plumbing stack and duct chases, knee walls that intersect the attic, level changes in a split level, and chimney chases.  I had about 10 sq ft (!) total opening from the conditioned space (wall cavity) to my attic from that sort of thing.  Also important are load bearing walls under the attic.  Basically some of the walls are put in before the ceiling joists (to carry the joists) and the wooden top plates of those walls are visible in the attic.  Other walls are put in after the ceiling drywall, so those top plates are invisible in the attic (sealed).  Depending on the drywall installer, the top plates of the load bearing walls may have a small or large gap b/w the the drywall and the plate, that vents the wall cavity to the attic.  In my case, I had a 1/8"-1/4" gap that was about 110' long overall, which works out to ~2 sq ft total opening.

Not really pleasant work, but I got all that sealed in ~20 hours of DIY time.  Based on before/after comparison am saving about ~100 gal/oil per yr just from the sealing on a 3 bdrm house.  More to the point thought, the house is more comfortable (less drafty), can be humidified more easily in the winter (which makes us all get sick less), prob less pollen leaking in in the spring, and much reduced ice damming.  Better humidity control during A/C season as well, for better comfort and savings.

Given that airflow is driven by stack/chimney effect, efforts in the attic and rim joist areas have the best impact.

Of course, if I could have had someone do this (right) for me for a reasonable price, I would have paid them happily.


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## semipro (Aug 27, 2011)

jharkin said:
			
		

> The air sealing is not just about stopping air coming in. In the heating season its more about stopping warm air getting out.  In that regard sealing all penetration from the inside, including outlets, is important to help prevent warm humid indoor air get into the wall cavities where it can trap moisture in the insulation.



Good point.   

I guess my point though is that it should be easier to create an airtight barrier at the outside.  It would be practically impossible to do so on the inside unless you did it during the original build.  Apparently they do this in Europe as airtight drywall.  

In either case water vapor within the walls needs a way out which is, of course, the idea behind house wraps like Tyvek.


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## laynes69 (Aug 27, 2011)

We found 32 open cavities from interior walls that were open to our attic. The idiots placed half a batt of unfaced insulation in the holes and blew cellulose on top. There was bad airloss in the home. We capped those cavities with fireproof caulking and sheetmetal. After that I found at least a 1" gap around the perimiter at the top plates. Before airsealing we couldn't keep the house 68 degrees when it was 20 degrees out. After capping the cavities we were able to heat the house at 70 degrees when it was -5 outside. Since then we have sealed the perimeter leaks and went from 3" to 14"+ of cellulose as well as all top plates, electrical penetrations and removed all old chimneys and sealed those as well. This winter we will find out how everything pans out. The blower test we had done proved the need for more airsealing. I know the problem areas we have now and have to wait for the money to do them.


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## begreen (Aug 27, 2011)

Well done laynes. You'll find this one of the best investments you've ever made. It will keep paying back year round, every year.


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## Jaugust124 (Sep 5, 2011)

So, I received my energy assessment the other day and the inspector listed a number of insulation issues in our house with the solutions and costs to remedy the problems.  Totals come to over $8900 if their company does the work.  Ouch!  There are many fixes that I can handle myself - such as insulating the pipes in the basement, insulating the basement ceiling, adding rafter vents, caulking around windows and doors.  The rafter vents will be a pain in the neck, as I have very little flooring in the attic and there is already insulation up there that has to get moved.  

He also suggested adding a layer of cellulose in the attic to bring it to an R-46.  

The second story of our home is cantilevered about 24" and he suggested taking down the soffits and adding a plywood sub soffit and blowing in dense packed insulation.  Total length of that is about 50 ft. or so at a cost of just over $1800.  That I may consider down the road.

Unfortunately, due to Irene, our septic tank collapsed taking part of our sidewalk with it.  Along with a new leech field, we incurred a $7000 unexpected expense to fix everything.  So, the other home improvements are going to be on hold for just a bit.  I will try to do the minor fixes and take care of the rafter vents before winter sets in.  

Woodgeek, Thanks for the advice as well on the air sealing in the attic.  The report I got mentioned that as well.  I should be able to handle taking care of that as well.

Laynes - Great job!


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## velvetfoot (Sep 12, 2011)

Well, I've been approved for a NYSERDA energy audit.
Can anyone recommend a "Participating New York Home Performance with ENERGY STAR" contractor?


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## joefrompa (Sep 12, 2011)

Just wanted to share my experience. Shortly after I moved into my well-built 1973 home, I had a door-blower test performed by a friend. So not a full work-up, but we walked around and felt all the drafts. The previous homeowner was somewhat of a DIYer, and had done a good amount - sealed the rim joist with thick beads of serious caulk. Added r-19 to an r-19 cellulose attic (r-38 total). Good weatherstripping. Etc.

So we found moderate leaks. All the cans/recessed lights leak like crazy - I'm going to build custom foam boxes to put around them and seal to the top of the drywall for those. Gives them airspace inside the foam, but makes the cans air-tight and adds some extra insulation around them. Simply take a piece of thick foam and cut it into a ~10x10x10 box pieces. Caulk the pieces together. Then put it over the can in the attic. Then caulk the bottom to the drywall. Then lay your fiberglass on top of that. Takes maybe 10-15 minutes per can. 

Improved sealing to the attic and main wall spaces. 

But what I missed from that test was the very broad amount of air being lost through the baseboards. Which has now been fixed via additional caulking and a foaming and tyveking of the entire exterior. Simultaneously, the entire house got a thermal bridging break through the addition of 3/8" fanfold foam put under the vinyl siding. 

One thing I'll add to that is that most people don't know what their house is currently sheathed in. I had cement fiber siding. It was attached to the house via furring strips. Which were mounted on the original house sheathing - treated external sheetrock. Well, after 35 years that sheetrock was crumbling and full of holes. So all my rooms had air gaps coming in up under the cement fiber boards (which had 1/2" gaps under them) then up around sheetrock, down the walls, and through baseboard trim. 

One other thing was that the main vent pipe running through the attic was completely unsealed. Probably 1 cubic foot around it. Was just stuffed with insulation. Massive heat loss spot right in the center of the house and since it's a main pipe - it's getting massive stack effect. A simple foam board cut-out, some more caulk, and the air is either eliminated or massively reduced. 

What I notice now is that if I close my master bedroom door, even with a ceiling fan on (but not the central air/heat flow), the air gets stagnant. It's uncomfortable. 

What this is telling me is that my interior air-flow is now getting vastly decreased. Probably to the point I want to stop air-sealing - since in the winter I might have my furnace AND wood burning stove on at the same time.

Next then is radiant heat. For me, that's the garage which butts up against conditioned space on 3 sides - my main living space on one side, a bedroom above it, and my foyer area butts the back of the garage.

I don't know if I can get away with it, but I'm planning on using some sort of foam sheathing there to add r-6 insulation + vapor barrier + thermal bridging.

Anyway, I noticed a marked decrease of my A/C bill this year and my siding was doesn't until August. What this tells me is that these things are already making a marked difference.

We'll see how my heating does this winter - I've made alot of large investments, so it's time for them to start paying off.


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## sesmith (Sep 12, 2011)

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> Well, I've been approved for a NYSERDA energy audit.
> Can anyone recommend a "Participating New York Home Performance with ENERGY STAR" contractor?



There's a list on line.  Where are you located?


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## velvetfoot (Sep 12, 2011)

Ooops, I forgot, I'm in the Albany, NY area.
I didn't get a chance today yet to look at that list, but a recommendation from someone would be nice, I thought, if possible.


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## semipro (Sep 13, 2011)

joefrompa said:
			
		

> Just wanted to share my experience. Shortly after I moved into my well-built 1973 home, I had a door-blower test performed by a friend. So not a full work-up, but we walked around and felt all the drafts. The previous homeowner was somewhat of a DIYer, and had done a good amount - sealed the rim joist with thick beads of serious caulk. Added r-19 to an r-19 cellulose attic (r-38 total). Good weatherstripping. Etc.
> 
> So we found moderate leaks. All the cans/recessed lights leak like crazy - I'm going to build custom foam boxes to put around them and seal to the top of the drywall for those. Gives them airspace inside the foam, but makes the cans air-tight and adds some extra insulation around them. Simply take a piece of thick foam and cut it into a ~10x10x10 box pieces. Caulk the pieces together. Then put it over the can in the attic. Then caulk the bottom to the drywall. Then lay your fiberglass on top of that. Takes maybe 10-15 minutes per can.
> 
> ...



Thanks for sharing Joe.  You make me feel like there's hope for my house yet.  I'd love to get to the point where the air seemed stagnant.  I'd gladly install an Energy Recovery Ventilator to get some fresh filtered air in.  

I've made an appointment to have an energy assessment done next week.  The cost is $350 for blower door and infrared imaging.  The State of Virginia is offering a rebate of $250 which I've reserved.


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## Jaugust124 (Sep 13, 2011)

Joe, Nice work.  
I still need to get into my attic to check things out.  I've been working in the basement insulating the hot water pipes and began sealing around the rim joist.  I hate that "Great Stuff" expanding foam insulation. It works well, but no matter how careful I am, I always seem to get it on my skin and nothing takes it off. I bought another brand at Lowes that is supposed to be water clean up.  I don't think it expands nearly as much as the "Great Stuff", but should be good for sealing the rest of the air leaks in the basement.  I also need to get outside and caulk around the windows.  They are original to our 1973 house.

Joe, you also mentioned about insulating the garage.  Around here and probably in your area everything on a common wall in the garage has to have a fire rating.  Which it sounds like you already know.  I tried to find rigid foam that is fire-rated and can't seem to do so.  I've been looking at fire rated paint, which will satisfy the code.  It is available, but its about $60 / gallon and covers roughly 100 sq. ft.  I may try to get this done before winter as well.  I only have 1 wall to cover, so the expense will be limited, probably about $200.  Nice to do things to the house that you know will save you a few bucks.


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## sesmith (Sep 13, 2011)

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> Ooops, I forgot, I'm in the Albany, NY area.
> I didn't get a chance today yet to look at that list, but a recommendation from someone would be nice, I thought, if possible.



You're just a little too far from me to use the guys I used.  Maybe someone from the Albany area will have a recommendaton for you.  The energy audit is a worthwhile thing to have done.  It'll help pinpoint the areas that are most worth spending your money on.


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## sesmith (Sep 13, 2011)

Jaugust124 said:
			
		

> Joe, Nice work.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## joefrompa (Sep 13, 2011)

Yeah, dow makes a aluminum embossed foam insulation that is fire-rated (I believe it comes in both vapor barrier and somehow non-vapor barrier, but I could be wrong). I'm not too concerned with vapor barrier in the garage - the walls can dry inwards since I have no interior vapor barrier.

Anyway, I couldn't find a local dealer of it in 15 minutes so I never followed up on it. I'm guessing it's righteously expensive, but at the same time you can use the dow product as the finished surface - you can rip down the drywall, put up new fiberglass if you want, and then install the dow panels as the finished surface. No fire-rated paint, no drywall, no mudding. If you find how much a panel costs, let me know.


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## Highbeam (Sep 13, 2011)

Getting the air sealing done so well that air feels stagnant is a good thing. In the winter when you are burning wood you will have a much better chance of maintaining humidity levels in the home. What you want is controlled ventilation through ventilation devices vs. sloppy contruction leading to uncontrolled air losses of "good" air along with the old air.


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## Jaugust124 (Sep 13, 2011)

I called the Dow company about the Thermax a week or so ago.  Customer service told me that the Thermax does have a fire rating, but not for a garage application.  You will notice on their website that the fire rating is for crawl space, basement, and attic applications.  Therefore, it might not satisfy local code.  I suppose it is better than other rigid foam insulation, but if an inspector wanted to be a stickler, they could probably make you tear it down

http://msdssearch.dow.com/Published...foam/pdfs/noreg/179-07942.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc


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## joefrompa (Sep 14, 2011)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> Getting the air sealing done so well that air feels stagnant is a good thing. In the winter when you are burning wood you will have a much better chance of maintaining humidity levels in the home. What you want is controlled ventilation through ventilation devices vs. sloppy contruction leading to uncontrolled air losses of "good" air along with the old air.



Never heard that before - and I hate the feel of stagnant air. How do I retroactively install a ventilation device?

I will say that the previous owner apparently cracked the small (10" tall) window in the furnace room in the winter to supposedly help draw fresh air in for when the furnace was running. That's in a basement in it's own room which was also insulated (though not sealed). But I don't want to run the furnace alot.


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## Highbeam (Sep 14, 2011)

joefrompa said:
			
		

> I hate the feel of stagnant air. How do I retroactively install a ventilation device?



Lots of ways. Some even allow you to recover heat from the ventilated air and filter out the dust and pollen. The last thing you want is uncontrolled ventilation allowing all sorts of cold, contaminated, dry air into your home whether you like it or not.


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## semipro (Sep 14, 2011)

joefrompa said:
			
		

> Highbeam said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Look up "Heat Recovery Ventilator" or "Energy Recovery Ventilator"


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## joefrompa (Sep 14, 2011)

Ouch! Not cheap!

All this air-sealing just to have to spend $500+ bringing in better quality air? Ugh! 

Maybe I'll just crack a window...

All kidding aside, I think my main issue is going to bringing in fresh air near the stove so that the stove room provides significant heat, and BLOWS fresh air through the rest of the house. Similarly, so the stove can draft in a tight house.

My stove room has 1 sliding glass door and 2 casement windows. Casement windows are kinda hard to crack just a tad, but it might be worthwhile for me to crack the one closest to the stove just a tad. It might cool off the stove room, introduce a little humidity, provide better draft to the stove, and also help push fresh air to the rest of the house (Along the very heated ceiling conveyance of air moving away from the stove).

I love the concept of the HRV - but I'm wondering if it's right for me since the house wasn't designed for it and it may not be financially wise.


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## woodgeek (Sep 14, 2011)

So yeah, airsealing below ~0.3 ACH (in the winter) requires either degraded IAQ or an expensive HRV/ERV, giving low ROI.  (enough acronyms in that sentence?).  

I have airsealed down to maybe ACH = 0.3 at winter temps.  Its where I will be quitting for now.

0.3 ACH is the right amount of fresh air _when_ I have the stack effect driving the flow.  In the mild seasons, my air changes would be a little smaller than I might like, so I was going to install a blower to draw outside air, through a near-HEPA filter and discharge into a 'great-room' type space.  I was sizing it to give 60 cfm (through the filter), and figured I would turn it on in april, and turn it off in november.

If I didn't have hay fever, I would just crack a window during those months.

The real question, is your ACH really 0.3, or do you have some source of indoor pollutant??


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## joefrompa (Sep 14, 2011)

I don't really know - to make matters more complicated, I don't know if the air is truly stagnant or not. It FEELS stagnant to me, but i'm extremely sensitive. My wife feels fine. And the time when it feels the most stagnant to me is at night, with the door open, and a ceiling fan on - i.e. plenty of ACH in the room. And we're the only people in the house, and it's a large house. So at a time where we're doing the least amount of exhalation, I feel the air gets the most stagnant feeling.

I'm not sure how my indoor air quality is. I have a finished basement which smells OK - basementy, but otherwise ok. It has a dehumidifer which runs alot and keeps it at 45% down there. My forced air system runs clean filters. We hav eno pets (except a turtle) and are extremely clean people. No kids either. The house is kept clean and the areas of ventilation kept open.

1-2 ceiling fans are kept running at all times as well, year round (I need the feeling of fresh/moving air to be comfortable).

I think I still am gonna go ahead and air-seal 2-4 potlights that are quite leaky and I'm gonna finish doing all my baseboard trims (for bug prevention)....but I think I'll stop after that and focus on areas of insulation.


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## woodgeek (Sep 14, 2011)

I don't really think 'stagnant feel' is good way to know when you are 'done' with airsealing from an ROI point of view (i.e. at the point you would need an HRV if you went further). I guess a blower door test can help.  

Our smallest bedroom gets 'stuffy' according to sensitive guests who stay there and sleep with the door closed--I run my air handler on 'on' (30% cfm at 100 % duty cycle) when I have guests as opposed to 'circ' (30% cfm at 30% duty cycle) which I run at all other times.  

I have been painstakingly estimating my natural airflow ACH by a variety of means, including how much bang I get from my humidifier and a painstaking heat demand model, and get consistent (but still pretty uncertain) numbers.  When I am done (after this heat season of compulsive 'data'), I will do a blower door (if I can find a cheap one), as well as a radon check and, of course, check my boiler and insert draft with all my exhaust fans running simultaneously.


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## Highbeam (Sep 14, 2011)

Let's clear up one thing... in the winter, when you let cold outside air in through a leak or open window or whatever, that air has very low humidity once it is warmed up to room temp. Outside air leaks will dry your home which is typically a bad thing in the winter. Most houses get very dry in the winter and sealing the air in allows humidity to come up from water sources such as people, cooking, showers, etc. Every time you open the door you let heat AND humidity out.


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## semipro (Sep 14, 2011)

joefrompa said:
			
		

> Ouch! Not cheap!
> 
> All this air-sealing just to have to spend $500+ bringing in better quality air? Ugh!
> 
> ...



This "energy nerd", as my wife calls me, would be glad to have to install an HRV and buy the electricity to run it just because my house was that tight.  Heck, I'm still plugging holes to keep critters out.  There's bugs getting into the room I'm in and I still haven't found out how.  

 At least if it was tight I could install a filtered inlet and at least have some control over where the entered and how clean it was.  My family would love the allergen control.


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## joefrompa (Sep 15, 2011)

woodgeek said:
			
		

> When I am done (after this heat season of compulsive 'data'), I will do a blower door (if I can find a cheap one), as well as a radon check and, of course, check my boiler and insert draft with all my exhaust fans running simultaneously.



I could totally be wrong about this, but from what I've read a tighter house with less stack effect from the basement on up SHOULD result in lower radon levels - as less air is stirred from below grade. Am I wrong about that?

I wonder because my radon levels when I bought the house were 3.4 (4.0 is limit here for radon mitigation requirements, but supposedly even at mid 3s you can have effects).


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## joefrompa (Sep 15, 2011)

I am definitely making my house tight - since the tyveking, the indoor bugs have decreased dramatically (considering it's summer time). We'll see in the next month or so as it cools off if they flood indoors. 

So now I'm wondering - how should I introduce fresh air in the winter? Opening a window will dry out my house (unless I humidify, which I might do anyway). An HRV system is too expensive...


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## semipro (Sep 15, 2011)

joefrompa said:
			
		

> I am definitely making my house tight - since the tyveking, the indoor bugs have decreased dramatically (considering it's summer time). We'll see in the next month or so as it cools off if they flood indoors.
> 
> So now I'm wondering - how should I introduce fresh air in the winter? Opening a window will dry out my house (unless I humidify, which I might do anyway). An HRV system is too expensive...



the greenbuildingadvisor website.  They've got some great articles on this. 

Here's one: http://e.greenbuildingadvisor.com/a/hBOcRSmB7W8pUB8dcgrNsgcdy.B7W8pUPQ/gba17-0


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## Highbeam (Sep 15, 2011)

joefrompa said:
			
		

> I am definitely making my house tight - since the tyveking, the indoor bugs have decreased dramatically (considering it's summer time). We'll see in the next month or so as it cools off if they flood indoors.
> 
> So now I'm wondering - how should I introduce fresh air in the winter? Opening a window will dry out my house (unless I humidify, which I might do anyway). An HRV system is too expensive...



We don't bother. Opening the doors seems to be sufficient. If you feel all clostrophobic and cabin feverish from being stuck inside then go skiing, or take a walk or something. I suppose some people are ultra sensitive to old air vs. new air. That sensitivity comes with a price tag.


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## joefrompa (Sep 15, 2011)

I think it's gonna be fine. Even with all the tightening, I can have the furnace run in the winter intermittently, ceiling fans, crack a window, etc.....

I have a window directly behind my 40" Samsung LCD anyway which sits about 8' in front of the stove. Might be good for it to have some cool air running along it's backside


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## woodgeek (Sep 15, 2011)

joefrompa said:
			
		

> I am definitely making my house tight - since the tyveking, the indoor bugs have decreased dramatically (considering it's summer time). We'll see in the next month or so as it cools off if they flood indoors.
> 
> So now I'm wondering - how should I introduce fresh air in the winter? Opening a window will dry out my house (unless I humidify, which I might do anyway). An HRV system is too expensive...



I tend be unclear, sorry.  Your natural air exchanges are highest in the winter--that is when your air will be 'freshest', because the stack is a maximum.  When the air outside is the same temp as inside, if there is no wind, there is no fresh air either.  I had some CO from a boiler last year, and it was a small source for months.  The alarm went off only after the outside temps were hovering around 70F for more than 2 days.

So, don't bother cracking a window in the winter--you will likely have enough fresh air then.  IF you knew your house was really tight (a big IF), then yuou might want to crack a window spring and fall (or leave a bath fan running) for fresh air (w/o an energy penalty).

As for hill-william ACH estimation, I looked at my house volume (18000 cf), and I figured that if I was ACH=0.3 (my target), then my '3 gallon/day' humidifier should boost my indoor RH by 10% over what it would be without.  At ACH=0.6, it would only bump me 5% on RH.  So, if you can run a honking big humidifier, and barely tell with a good/trusted hygrometer, then you are not yet 'too tight'. Of course, I do this in the dead of winter, cuz I only care about my ACH nat at my mean winter stack effect driving.


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## joefrompa (Sep 15, 2011)

"So, if you can run a honking big humidifier, and barely tell with a good/trusted hygrometer, then you are not yet â€˜too tightâ€™" - huh?

In other words - if I run a significant humidifier in my home and have a humidity meter (hehehe, dumbed that down) in my house and it barely moves, then I'm getting enough ventilation through natural means because the humidity is running fairly stable.

However, if my house starts to get humid (I'm guessing a rise of 10%?) - then it's not ventilating that moisture very well and it might be "too tight"

...

Last thing - I would only crack a window if my I notice my stove has a tough time drafting AND if I want the fresh air to come in in the stove room.

I actually have a theory that a cracked window in my stove room MAY help spread more heat through the rest of my house. Crazy, I know.


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## woodgeek (Sep 15, 2011)

Basically.  Sorry to back into this stuff a post at a time....ACH=0.3 is a common level of minimum ventilation recommended for residential property.  If you had an airtight house (e.g a super tight green house), you would size the HRV/ERV to provide something like 0.3 air changes per hour.  In my case, since my house volume is ~18,000 cubic feet, that is 18000 (cf/change)*0.3 (change/hr)/60 (min/hr) = 90 cfm.  So, even when it is 70F out, I can run a bathroom fan and get a 'code' amount of fresh air.   Of course, most houses in the US have stack driven flow >0.3 ACH most of the time (except the hours when the temp diff and wind are both small), so it was never an issue.

A lot of folks think the 0.3 number is a little generous. If your house is lacking major pollution sources (e.g. smokers) and has a lot of square footage per person, 0.2 is likely plenty, in my case that is only 60 cfm.  My current ACH in the winter is still well above that line, so I can still save energy by additional airsealing, without risk of killing my indoor IAQ.  In mild weather, however, I am likely below 0.2 much of the time, because of reduced stack effect.  That is, if I have an ACH of 0.5 when the temp outside is 20Â°F (50Â° differential), then I have 0.2 ACH when the diff is Â±20Â°F (50 or 90F outside), or <0.2ACH whenever the temp outside is between 50-90Â°F.  So I bought a blower, filter and filter box to supply ~60cfm filtered fresh air into my house, planning to run it from Apr-Oct.  This would also maintain a small positive pressure to keep allergens out, and flood my wall cavities with dehumidified air during the AC season, which sounds good to me.  Technically, this is fixing something that isn't broke (i.e. there is no evidence of our IAQ being poor), but my wife and I have wicked hayfever, so a filtered fresh air supply helps that and covers the hypothetical IAQ problem.  I'll install it before the spring pollens.

Radon is a complex issue--I haven't checked it, but should.  It does depend on the relative pressure--in the winter you are sucking air into your basement (mining radon) and in the heat of the summer you are pushing air out your basement.  I'll check it soon.

On the humidifier, I worked out that ~4300cf of 100RH air at 70Â°F contains 1 gallon of water (as vapor).  Evaporating 3 gal from my humidifier can humidify 3*4300 = 13000 cf of dry air to 100% RH, or could raise the RH of 130000 cf of humid air by 10%RH.  If hypothetically my 3 gal/day humidifier only raises the RH in my house by 10% (say, after 24 hours of running, relative the RH the day before), then apparently I have 130000 cf of air entering and exiting my house every day to carry the water away so effectively.  This huge amount of air corresponds to 90 cfm * 1440 min/day, or about 0.3 ACH in my case.

When I bought my house, I could never humidify it in the winter.  I could run a big humidifier flat out (forget it maintaining a setpoint) and got no benefit I could detect with a meter, let alone feel!  I now know that I was at 1.3ACH, and my 1.5 gallon/day humidifer would, theoretically, boost my indoor humidity by only 1.15%.

Bottom line: houses that are hard to humidify in the winter are leaky sieves (you can still put a humidifier in the bedrooms).  Houses that are built tight (very low ACH) often don't need winter humidification at all.  When I got to the point of seeing a measurable RH rise when I ran my 'whole house' humidifier, I knew I was getting close--and I could use the humidifier to estimate my wintertime ACH.


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## jharkin (Sep 19, 2011)

My PM box is getting flooded with requests for a pointer to the Massachusetts program so here you guys go:

The state program is called Mass Save. Its funded by the big utilities and administered through a 3rd party company called Conservation Services Group.

First step is to call up and request a free energy assessment. This has all the info:
http://www.masssave.com/residential...assessments/what-is-a-home-energy-assessment/


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## sesmith (Oct 2, 2011)

We had an energy audit done on our house this summer.  It's an old (1840's) timber frame farmhouse with a couple of conventionally framed additions.  I've upgraded insulation, put in vapor barriers where I could, and replaced the windows and doors as I've remodeled it over the last 30 years that we've owned it.  We're putting in a geothermal system this fall, so I wanted the energy audit info to help with sizing the unit.  The blower door test showed air leakage of about 1 ACH,  if you do the conversion from cfm 50.  Fairly leaky as I suspected, but not terrible for a very old house.  One area where  the tech thought I could make a difference, was sealing the rim joint area (there's nothing I can really get to in the roof area or crawlspace over part of the house...both are pretty well insulated w/cellulose), though he said payback would be questionable if I had to pay someone else to foam it. 

So yesterday, I sealed the conventionally framed rim areas with 2" blue-board foamed in place around the perimeter of each piece (using low expansion great stuff), and then I sealed around the inside edge of each piece with the regular great stuff foam.  On the timber frame rim area, I just foam sealed the timber to sub floor joint and all joints and cracks where the rafters joined the sill beam, and any other areas where there seemed to be any leakage.  I also sealed any penetrations from the cellar to the upper floor.  One thing I noticed when I was partly done, and most of the major leak areas were sealed, was that my dehumidifier stopped running.  It was a rainy, windy day, and normally the dehumidifier would be running 24/7 just to keep the old cellar at around 70% humidity under those conditions.  So I'm guessing all this time, I was dehumidifying the outdoors mostly!  Since I did the sealing yesterday, I'm more likely to find the dehumidifier off than on, and humidity is running about 65% down there at the present, and the cellar has a totally different feel to it...still windy, crappy and rainy outside.  I'm pretty happy with my $160 investment in materials, at this point...should have done it years ago.  So, if you are also dehumidifying a cellar, sealing it has other paybacks over just savings in heating and cooling as dehumidifiers aren't exactly cheap to run.  

One last note.  I have 4 can lights in my kitchen.  They are rated for direct contact to insulation and have fiberglass and a healthy layer of cellulose over them, so leakage is probably minimal.  I saw a display of Cree brand LED can light conversions at my local HD yesterday for $25 ea, so I picked up one to try.  I'm totally sold.  It's a solid unit, so once it's in, the only area for leakage should be around the lip of the fixture.  If you wanted to be anal, I guess you could caulk it in place.  They also are dimable and use around 10 watts instead of the 75 watt incandescents I had in them (I had never switched these to cfl's because they're on dimmers).  The new light seems to be brighter, but doesn't have that stark, LED looking type of light.  I think I'll pick up 3 more.


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## laynes69 (Oct 2, 2011)

When we had an energy audit done, they said our NACH was .8. Our home is at least 150 years old, which records were destroyed in a flood years ago. There were new homes built down the road where they said they had more air infiltration. The areas you were talking about was where the floor joists met the beam correct? I foamed the cracks then placed fiberglass batts in the cavities. I like your idea better. One of my largest leaks is the boulder walls of the basement, but also our bilco doors. Does anyone have ideas on sealing a bilco door? I would like to see our home down in the .4-.5 range. There's 2 problem areas that need to be addressed here but one is a new addition and the other a gut and remodel. Airsealing the attic and working in the basement has made a world of difference. We also dropped about 30 a month going with cfl lighting.


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## semipro (Oct 3, 2011)

For those that live in Virginia, the state is offering a $250 rebate on home energy testing through the DMME.   Our test, a shell evaluation including blower door and thermal imaging cost $350.   It should end up costing us a net of $100. 

We just had ours done.  I quickly addressed some of the easy-to-fix air leaks and I swear our house already feels less drafty.


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## jharkin (Oct 19, 2011)

Update....

The insulation contractors for MassSave - Anderson Insulation of Abington MA - were at my place today doing the work. These guys are good... we noticed a few things that the auditor mixed up (spec called for insulating slopes from the top... yet I have no open attic above the slope !)  but they found ways around all the issues.

A couple of the walls they were going to blow turned out to have some insulation so they ended up only blowing one 15ft section. On the other hand in the attic they are going to do more than was speced -  I managed to make an access  for them to get into some closed off attic space over my dining room so they are going to blow cellulose over the thin FG up there.


More reports tomorrow after they finish up...


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## jharkin (Oct 21, 2011)

The insulation job is done.

We found all but one wall on the first floor was already blown in. So they cellulose dense packed that one remaining wall.

In the attic, they dense packed the kneewall floors and attic floor above the addition (7in ~ R 24). Blocked the slopes with FG and dense packed them (5 in+ the furring strips for a thermal break, R18+) - which also packed the flat. then the put 2in polyiso on the kneewals and access area (R14). As they were going they air sealed everything tight, including sealing the chimney chase with flashing and fire caulk and damming the chimney in rock wool so they could insulate up to it.

My slopes are now a sealed hot roof - I know that is controversial( especially with the old house preservation folks) but we found that they had been stuffed with kimsul 50 years ago and weren't well vented anyway and that didn't cause any water damage so Im betting this wont either. And if we have reason to be concerned in the future everything we did is easily reversible unlike spray foam (they can pull the plugs and vacuum out the cellulose for renovations).

The also put in baffles and blew over existing FG in the dining room ceiling, probably bringing that area up to R40+

No we just wait for the MassSave inspector to come check the work, then the gas company pays the rebate to the contractor and I get billed for the difference which will end up under 30% of the total job cost!


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## jimbom (Oct 21, 2011)

Jeremy,  Good looking project.  My opinion is this type of effort is the most energy efficient thing we can do in the USA to reduce unnecessary energy waste.  Congratulations.


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## jharkin (Nov 16, 2011)

Dig this one back up again.


You guys might find this (not) amusing.  Yesterday the MassSave quality control inspector came to evaluate the work done by the insulation contractors. This guy was not impressed.

#1 he found that all the dense packed cathedral ceiling bays were not - most bays were light and fluffy and a few  left empty(!)  He also went around with an IR camera and found all kinds of voids in the walls.  They just used one center hole to blow in, no fill tubes or anything and missed a lot.

#2 they missed most of the air sealing around the transitions from the rigid foam to the cellulose bays.


#3 He was upset that they insulated over my recessed lights. The cans are IC rated, and the contractors asked that before doing the work, but the QC guy insists that its not safe to insulate any can even if its IC. I actually argued the point - "The manufacturer rates these for insulation contact up to 65watts, and Ive even under-lamped them with 10watt LEDs and you still think its a risk???" yup.  And urged me to watch and if I see any flickering lights to throw the breaker and call them back asap.  The guy really thought my house would just spontaneously combust!

They are going to have the contractors come back and take the insulation out and redo it.  What a waste.

UGH.


I'm also really annoyed at the contractors - who were really nice guys and seemed to know what they were doing - apparently didn't do half of what they said.

I'm further annoyed that the original energy evaluator the sent didn't have the IR camera. We might have made better choices on what walls to blow into than just guessing based on sticking coat-hangers behind some outlets feeling for insulation.


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## semipro (Nov 16, 2011)

I guess you're lucky the QC guy came by.  Maybe the work will get done correctly now.  

I just installed some dense-packed cellulose in our house and don't see how you could get it right without using a fill tube.  Its difficult enough with one.  

That is strange about the can lights though.  Seems that with the IC rating, the under-lamping with LEDs, and the built in thermal protection you'd be pretty safe.


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## jharkin (Nov 17, 2011)

Semipro said:
			
		

> That is strange about the can lights though.  Seems that with the IC rating, the under-lamping with LEDs, and the built in thermal protection you'd be pretty safe.



Agree.  I think the chance of fire is pretty close to zero. Even using the design wattage those things have a massive safety factor built in, not to mention the thermal cutoffs.

If these things were so dangerous when used as deigned, Cooper would have been sued out of existence years ago. I suspect most fires form recessed lights are people over lamping and insulating non-IC units.  This state program is just being paranoid of lawsuits.


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## jharkin (Jan 6, 2012)

Digging this one up yet again for a report on the results.

#1 - Turns out the inspector was a boob.  the contractors put in a bit less insulation so as not to blow out my old walls. He made them pump in more, and they exploded my ceilings in two rooms  UGH. But they did fix it on their dime.

More importantly I am seeing results! :
December 2010 gas bill - 187 therm
December 2011 gas bill - 80 therm.

Now, this year is mild and Ive been burning wood more days but that alone wont explain the *57%* decrease in the bill.


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## peakbagger (Jan 6, 2012)

I just had my work done this week. They sprayed a lot of foam and did a nice job sealing up a future spare bedroom as well as dealt with some air leaks. It was painful to see them seal off my gable end vents, but with a couple of inches on the inside of the roof sheathing, the roof is not going to see a lot of heat coming from the house to cause Ice dams. Its on a north facing roof with 2 rows of ice and water shield so I am not really worried but its still tough after all the work to keep a cold roof. The biggest pain was hauling all my accumulated junk out of my attic so they could do their work. The also spray the sills and the boxes, I expect that is where I am going to see the biggest impact as there were definitely air leaks. 

I am waiting for an inspection. One issue is that the foam was sprayed on a cold day and there are some spots where the foam pulled away from the roof joists. I am going to see if I can get the inspector to require the contractor to do some touch up in those spots. if not I will keep en eye out for a sale on spray foam and DIY.


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## begreen (Jan 7, 2012)

We get the first phase of the audit on Monday. This is paid for by the power company. If it looks like there are opportunities for some significant energy savings they may then authorize a FLIR and blower door test.


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## billb3 (Jan 7, 2012)

Had the Mass Save free audit a while back and (town takes forever to issue permits) the insulator guys finally showed up.
Sealed the attic and didn't help with the suction test that much, but they found that near the kitchen exhaust fan which I always thought I was doing a lousy job of sealing up for the Winter was a big empty spot behind a cabinet that was acting like a chimney going right up into the attic. Guys were fairly impressed with what I had already done especially such an old house and built rather poorly. They blew in  6 inches of cellulose on top of my fiberglass batts. I would have preferred more batts than a mix, but it works.


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## schlot (Jan 9, 2012)

Definitely check with your utility company about this. Many do a basic audit for free, and some provide money to do the improvements they recommend.


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