# Garage: Rebuild or replace



## begreen (Mar 24, 2012)

We have a cheaply built, but still standing after many decades, 1 car garage that has a tacked on, side shed. It's fairly old and in need of a new roof. Trying to decide what to do to make it a more useful shelter and not a crap collector.

plan a: change roofline to raise shed roof line to 8ft so that a vehicle can be parked underneath. Pour concrete floor to replace wooden plank floor (great place for rats to hide). Replace side hinged garage doors with 8' high roll-up.

plan b: tear present garage down, pour slab and replace with a 24x30 2 car steel garage

If plan b, has anyone had experience with this company?
http://www.carportempire.com/


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## bfunk13 (Mar 24, 2012)

Have you figured a ballpark price for the two options?
Seems to me plan A will not be that cheap, and you will still be left wishing you went brand new. Might be worth the extra money to go with B.


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## Pallet Pete (Mar 24, 2012)

My friend has a steel Garage and loves it ! He said it went up fast and is strong I helped him insulate it last year and that was easy too. The downside I noticed is when it rains it is very very loud inside. 

Pete


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## Pallet Pete (Mar 24, 2012)

Come to think of it Dennis has one too you might wanna shoot him some questions if you have any! His is very nice indeed.

RePete


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## begreen (Mar 24, 2012)

bfunk, that is my thought also. I am leaning toward a teardown replacement with a metal building. The noise will be abated somewhat by ceiling insulation in the shop. I could care less about the garage section. You should hear how loud it gets in the greenhouse during a good pour.

Can you tell me more about the insulating process? The bldgs. I am looking at have posts on 5 ft. centers. Did you build a stud wall between then insulate?


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## semipro (Mar 24, 2012)

begreen said:


> I am leaning toward a teardown replacement with a metal building. The noise will be abated somewhat by ceiling insulation in the shop. I could care less about the garage section. You should hear how loud it gets in the greenhouse during a good pour.
> 
> Can you tell me more about the insulating process? The bldgs. I am looking at have posts on 5 ft. centers. Did you build a stud wall between then insulate?


Seems likes this might be a great application for spray-in foam...if you can afford it. 

We like the noise.  One of our favorite places to hang out in a rainstorm is in our shed with the rain hitting the metal roof. I don't think I'd want it on my bedroom though.


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## Mr A (Mar 25, 2012)

Both plan A & B require a new slab, correct?  That being the case, tear down is required for both. With the loose labor market, the difference will be in the materials cost. I would think lumber to be cheaper being close to the source.


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## woodsmaster (Mar 25, 2012)

If your hireing the work out I'd go new. I doubt it will cost a lot more than repairing the old but you could get quotes both ways to see. Id build walls like you said and insulate with what you desire. foam would be my first choice
with with wet blown cellulose second and fiberglass third, but cheapist which may be ok for a garage. Get free estimates from at least 3 contractors. If one comes in way low there probably forgetting somthing and may cut corners to try and save there but. Good luck !


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## Pallet Pete (Mar 25, 2012)

No his metal garage has large metal studs 4ft apart that we used styrofoam panels between. We put three sheets of r-10 stacked then we had about 1/4 " left to the outside of the studs. After the insulation we used the cheapest panel he could find to panel inside the garage. His garage is heated now with an old vented propane furnace.

Pete


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## woodsmaster (Mar 25, 2012)

You could foam the steel without the framing, but then it's harder to hang stuff or finish the walls.


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## begreen (Mar 25, 2012)

Mr A said:


> Both plan A & B require a new slab, correct? That being the case, tear down is required for both. With the loose labor market, the difference will be in the materials cost. I would think lumber to be cheaper being close to the source.


 
My thought at first was for going cheap by removing the flooring, set rebar in place and pour in a floor using the perimeter block as a form. But I have to admit I can be persuaded to just replace the thing. Not sure if our lumber is any cheaper out here. Haven't checked recently. If so, I think I'm going to go a bit larger, 30x30, so that I can have a small shop and garden tool, mower storage at the end.


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## ScotO (Mar 25, 2012)

Pole building, steel sides and roof.  tin the inside walls as well, insulate with spray foam.  you will thank yourself immensely if you do it this way.  I wish I could tear my barn down and start over, that's what I would do the second time around.


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## begreen (Mar 25, 2012)

Scotty Overkill said:


> Pole building, steel sides and roof. tin the inside walls as well, insulate with spray foam. you will thank yourself immensely if you do it this way. I wish I could tear my barn down and start over, that's what I would do the second time around.


 
Kind of like this? http://www.permabilt.com/index.php
Will be calling them soon.


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## ScotO (Mar 25, 2012)

begreen said:


> Kind of like this? http://www.permabilt.com/index.php
> Will be calling them soon.


Exactly!  They have some really nice looking buildings,  if I could do it again that's what I would do.  We are considering getting a couple of people together and buying a small plot of ground (couple of acres) to raise our own food on.   If and when we do that, I will be going the steel building route.


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## Dune (Mar 25, 2012)

I would at least try to think about ways to use this as a chance to implement some type of solar collector. If the garage is too far from the house or green house then perhaps orient the building to provide the ultimate amount of photo-voltiac panel as possible. Perhaps a shed roof instead of gable for availability of the entire roof for panel area.

If one were to utilize solar thremal collectors, keep in mind that the south facing wall is also usable collector space, and more effective than the roof in the winter.

For a garage, I would likely install a radiant slab, since this type of heat in a garage is the most cost effective as well as comfortable.

Even if active solar is not an option, passive solar for the garage itself would provide exdcellent benefits for very little extra initial expence.

Finaly, check into micro-wind turbines. Tremendous advances have been made recently; litteraly orders of magnitude of increased output have been acomplished by a new jappanese design, 

On the subject of tremendous advances, photovoltiac panels will soon again fall in price due to a recently invented process which enables panels to be manufactured using only ten percent of the present amount of silicon and virtualy no waste.

Forthought in building placement, height, design etc. could affect future possibility of viable wind turbine or panel mounting.


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## DexterDay (Mar 25, 2012)

Depending on how much you do, it can be pretty cheap to start new. I have a 30 x 40 (no slab) that was bought and built for about 12k.  They did it in about a day and I built walls (and stalls for horses, but have since tore the stalls back out).

If I had it to do again, it would be to go bigger and put closer to the house (100 yards away).


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## begreen (Mar 25, 2012)

We already have a 15 panel solar array in the field. The garage location is less ideal due to trees on the neighboring property, but if panels get cheap enough I might consider adding at some point. I don't intend to heat the garage except for a small shop area which would be around 12 x 16. Will be calling them about this special:

http://www.permabilt.com/special.php 17517 installed and that includes the slab.


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## DexterDay (Mar 25, 2012)

Thats a pretty good price to include all the features in the link.. A very good price actually.


 4" concrete floor with fibermix reinforcement and zip-strip crack control

1) 10'x12' raised panel steel roll up door

1) 9'x9' raised panel steel roll up door

3'x6'8" Permabilt door with self-closing hinges and stainless steel lockset

10' continuous flow ridge vent

2'x36' polycarbonate eavelight

2" Fiberglass vapor barrier roof insulation

All steel fastened with screw fasteners

18 Sidewall and Trim colors, 45 year warranty

Price includes engineered plans, permit service (we obtain permit customer pays fees),

guaranteed craftsmanship

Price is predicated on a flat, level and accessible site

Price is predicated on 85 MPH exposure B wind load and 25 lb. snow load

Price does not include any permit fees or sensitive area reviews if required

Built price is good for Western Washington / Travel charges for some areas

The monthly special is not valid with any other offers or promotions


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## begreen (Mar 25, 2012)

Dune, the wind turbine collar is very interesting, but we are not in a good location to harvest. Can you repost the info in the green room?


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## Don2222 (Mar 25, 2012)

begreen said:


> We have a cheaply built, but still standing after many decades, 1 car garage that has a tacked on, side shed. It's fairly old and in need of a new roof. Trying to decide what to do to make it a more useful shelter and not a crap collector.
> 
> plan a: change roofline to raise shed roof line to 8ft so that a vehicle can be parked underneath. Pour concrete floor to replace wooden plank floor (great place for rats to hide). Replace side hinged garage doors with 8' high roll-up.
> 
> ...


 
I would think twice about a metal building. My friend had a metal shed for his motorcycle. He had to get rid of it because the dampness was rusting out his bike. He got a wooden shed and now has no moisture problems!!

*Also where are the pics of your existing garage for our comments?*


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## begreen (Mar 25, 2012)

Was the roof insulated? If not my understanding is that it will sweat.


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## Don2222 (Mar 26, 2012)

begreen said:


> Was the roof insulated? If not my understanding is that it will sweat.


 
Hi Begreen

I really do not think there was any insulation. That is why there was condensation and sweating!

So do you have some pics?

Does it look like this garage?

Click to enlarge and see *Red* arrow


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## begreen (Mar 26, 2012)

Ha! LOL The building is standing and although funky, it's lines are true.


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## Highbeam (Mar 26, 2012)

I am just finishing up a 30x60' polebarn garage building. I had three bids and they were well into the 40s and 50s to finish what I have built for abut 25000$.

I chose pole construction for cost and then used a normal composition 4:12 roof with 2 foot overhangs to match the house. Since I built it I know it was done right and had chances to do special things like renegade plumbing into the slab. Insulate the slab and put in 1800 LF of pex floor heating pipes, more and better rebar, proper fasteners, etc.

The companies can fling a building up quickly but their assembly line procedures ensure a barely code compliant build. I wanted better than barely code compliant.

I tore down a 12 x20' old barn from 1963 and now have a slab for washing cars. The old barn had roof sheathing with concrete stains on them. They were the old form boards for the house!

There is no reason at all that a building has to be torn down to pour concrete inside. I have done two large indoor pours in my home as part of remodels and the guys just use a line pump to bring the mud in. Actually kind of nice since the lighting is overhead and the weather controlled.


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## begreen (Mar 26, 2012)

If we pour and stay with the current building we are constrained to a one car garage and a carport.


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## begreen (Aug 1, 2012)

Update: The old garage came down this morning like a house of cards. New building going up soon.

9am 
	

		
			
		

		
	




	

		
			
		

		
	
 11am


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## ScotO (Aug 1, 2012)

begreen said:


> Update: The old garage came down this morning like a house of cards. New building going up soon.
> 
> 9am
> 
> ...


 CHIT, that didn't take long at all!   Keep us posted on the rebuild pics too, Begreen!


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## begreen (Aug 1, 2012)

Yes, I was surprised at how quickly it was being hauled off. The site was cleared by 1pm, screened gravel should be arriving soon.


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## begreen (Aug 2, 2012)

Here's a little sped up video of the excavator at work. The grace and power of this machine in the hands of a good operator is amazing.


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## jebatty (Aug 2, 2012)

You'll be happy with the new garage. I went back and checked on my cost for a 32' x 48' x14' shop bldg built in early Dec of 2009 before frost and completed in 2010. I had a local builder put up the bldg, a cement contractor put in the floor, a heating contractor lay the pex for the floor and do some minor connection set-up work for my Tarm boiler, and an electrician for the new electrical service and main panel install. I did the interior electrical (ceiling lights, 120V and 240V outlets, fully inspected), interior walls, and install of the Tarm boiler with storage. The interior walls have a 2' top trim in wood, then 4' of sheetrock painted white to reflect the ceiling lighting, and the bottom 8' is solid white pine paneling with widths from 6" to 12" from trees on our property. I cut and sawed the trees, dried, planed, and varnished the wall paneling.

The bldg is a pole bldg, fully insulated with 6" fiberglass, R-30+ in ceiling, vapor barrier, white steel ceiling panels, walls not finished, 12' x 12' insulated OH door, 3' entry door, 4' entry door, 2 - 3' x 4' windows: $23,176 (permit, site prep, bldg, misc).

Concrete floor (5"), 2" foam insulation under the entire floor plus perimeter foam, pex in floor: $11,582. The concrete was sawed in a 16' x 16' pattern for crack lines. After 2 years there are no cracks, not even hairline cracks, except in the saw cuts. The concrete was poured in May 2010 after the building was constructed.

Electrical contractor and parts installed myself: $1,317.

Total: $36,075.


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## Jags (Aug 2, 2012)

Man oh man, that operator knew his stuff.  Picked that garage down like he was using his own hands on a model on his kitchen table.

You will enjoy the new building.  Everything works, nothing leaks, much more space.  Whats not to like (cost aside).


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## PapaDave (Aug 4, 2012)

I had never seen one in action until we built a house for some local folks back in 2010.
The guy (who, with my assistance, also did the foundation and block work) was taking whole sections of roof and walls down and stacking them.
He was digging footings by mid-afternoon. Very cool machine.
I want one.


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## billb3 (Aug 4, 2012)

I'm still surprised sometimes with the damage I can do with my little backhoe.


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## begreen (Aug 5, 2012)

Jags said:


> Man oh man, that operator knew his stuff. Picked that garage down like he was using his own hands on a model on his kitchen table.
> 
> You will enjoy the new building. Everything works, nothing leaks, much more space. Whats not to like (cost aside).


 
Yes, it was fun to watch. The main benefit I hope will be a rodent free space. The old garage was a rat hotel. The bill for this is jumping up quickly. In order to provide a level base one corner had to be built up 30"! I came home from work and found this huge plinth built for the garage. Now it looks like we are going to have to add a retaining wall on two sides of this base, sigh.That's going to be costly.


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## PapaDave (Aug 5, 2012)

That's what was needed for my pole barn, but the opposite front corner.
Please make sure to insulate under the slab. You'll thank me later.


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## begreen (Aug 5, 2012)

Good tip, but we are in a much milder climate here and the ground rarely freezes so most folks do not insulate under the slab. I'd do that if I planned on spending a lot of time in the building or shop. But at this stage I don't expect to be in there for hours on end. We'll rely on thick rubber floor mats in the shop for warmer feet if in there during the winter.


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## PapaDave (Aug 5, 2012)

I'm more thinking along the lines of moisture intrusion up through the slab. I forget the proper term.
If your soil drains extremely well, may not be as much of an issue.


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## begreen (Aug 5, 2012)

Our soil drains very well. Straight down where the garage is. And there will be a vapor barrier under the slab.


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## smoke show (Aug 5, 2012)

begreen said:


> Now it looks like we are going to have to add a retaining wall on two sides of this base, sigh.That's going to be costly.


Why not backfill and grade to a taper. Might be cheaper than a wall?


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## bogydave (Aug 5, 2012)

Looking good be-g.
When I built mine, I did a 4" monolithic slab & 2' high block (8") wall all the way around. Then I backfilled with a slope away from the wall for the water to drain out & away from the foundation.
Rain gutters help too. Under ground 4" pipe for the gutter down spout to carry the water well away from the foundation.

With the 2' concrete block wall , no worries about hurting them on the inside, Works great for a shop/garage, I seem to bang into them now & then with stuff & it just bounces off, no damage to the wall. Was some added expense, but should last forever & not require any repairs.
I did 10' walls on the main shop, the extra height is nice for shelves & ceiling clearance.

Just some ideas. Wish I would have run an air line from one side to the other & the plastic electrical conduit under the floor to each wall from the breaker box, cheaper than wire, would've saved wire & plumbing & out of the way, Don't forget a few AC outlets in the ceiling.


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