# Healthcare



## AlbergSteve

begreen said:


> The reasons are known.  CDC budgets cut. CDC pandemic response team cut. Advance CDC epidemiologist in China, cut. Stock piles of masks, ventilators, cut. Just in time supply chains sound good when one wants to maximize efficiency and profit, but that model doesn't fit for health care. The lesson being learned is that we need to take healthcare as seriously as national defense (which has lots of stockpiles of things it will never use).


You forgot lack of leadership and direction. In Canada, if the provinces don't get it right, the federal government steps in. So far the provinces  have had excellent medical leadership(looking at you BC) with the full support of their respective governments. You are fortunate that at least at the state level, those officials have been on the ball for the most part. If the feds say it's business as usual, you know, gotta get all those chocolate bunnies sold, the state can tell them to pound sand.


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## WinterinWI

begreen said:


> It's not just the severity. It is the unpreparedness that is concerning.  This is compounded by those lowlifes that seek to mine this horrible situation to their own benefit.
> 
> 
> Death squads made real. Another reason to have a national health care system.



So you rip the government for being unprepared, being general idiots ect, then go on to advocate for government controlled healthcare...

I get my fill of government efficiency at the DMV.


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## mcdougy

WinterinWI said:


> So you rip the government for being unprepared, being general idiots ect, then go on to advocate for government controlled healthcare...
> 
> I get my fill of government efficiency at the DMV.



I hope it will be a case of World healthcare. If trillions can be created, human survival should be addressed on a global level, leaving no man left behind.


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## Medic21

mcdougy said:


> I hope it will be a case of World healthcare. If trillions can be created, human survival should be addressed on a global level, leaving no man left behind.


Most People do not have a clue as to why we have the limited beds in our healthcare system.  

Medicare and Medicaid (government) have been allowed to dictate payments for so long now hospitals have been forced to lean out. Empty beds cost a lot of money to have equipment and staff for. Our major hospitals run at 80% plus capacity on a normal basis and ICU beds run 90%+ capacity for profitability. Along comes something like this and the beds do not exist, nor do we have the ability to change that quickly.

All this was brought to us by the governments, both local and national, in this country and every other country. Healthcare became a business that was based in profits, not needs.

You’re absolutely blinded and insane if you think the government could take complete control and run healthcare.


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## Sawset

Mod Edit: Tangent moved from the Corona Virus thread



Medic21 said:


> Our major hospitals run at 80% plus capacity on a normal basis and ICU beds run 90%+ capacity for profitability. Along comes something like this and the beds do not exist, nor do we have the ability to change that quickly.


The ability to change quickly is the part that needed to be addressed (hospitals built in 8 days, we looked on in disbelief?). Pandemics to this point have been "over there", so no sense of urgency here. Bet updates to preparedness will be coming in the future.


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## Medic21

Sawset said:


> The ability to change quickly is the part that needed to be addressed (hospitals built in 8 days, we looked on in disbelief?). Pandemics to this point have been "over there", so no sense of urgency here. Bet updates to preparedness will be coming in the future.


I highly doubt much will be done after this to prepare for the next. This is a numbers and money driven industry. From what I’ve seen in the past well learn lessons on how to react better. But we won’t plan for the future.


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## Sawset

Medic21 said:


> This is a numbers and money driven industry.


We had a little clinic down town that tried but closed because the numbers weren't there. I wouldn't expect them or anyone else in the "industry" to build 1300 bed units in 8 days.
If it's to a point of national security, then those involved to that end would be involved.


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## Medic21

Sawset said:


> We had a little clinic down town that tried but closed because the numbers weren't there. I wouldn't expect them or anyone else in the "industry" to build 1300 bed units in 8 days.
> If it's to a point of national security, then those involved to that end would be involved.


I’m waiting for the government to deploy the combat support hospital. That would be a quick way to add to our healthcare industry with the active duty military personnel and have the level two trauma center capabilities.  They can handle the majority of the day today for larger cities to allow them to focus their facilities on COVID-19


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## begreen

Sawset said:


> The ability to change quickly is the part that needed to be addressed (hospitals built in 8 days, we looked on in disbelief?). Pandemics to this point have been "over there", so no sense of urgency here. Bet updates to preparedness will be coming in the future.


They are converting a big exhibition hall under Century Link Field into a field hospital. This will not be for Covid-19 patients. Instead it will be for the many patients displaced as our hospitals are turned in to large Covid-19 treatment centers.


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## begreen

mcdougy said:


> I hope it will be a case of World healthcare. If trillions can be created, human survival should be addressed on a global level, leaving no man left behind.


We can and should do better. Healthcare should be a national priority and not a profit center.


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## Medic21

begreen said:


> We can and should do better. Healthcare should be a national priority and not a profit center.


If you want to see the profit side of healthcare look at the insurance companies.  Hospitas don’t make the money, they get by.


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## begreen

Medic21 said:


> If you want to see the profit side of healthcare look at the insurance companies.  Hospitas don’t make the money, they get by.


Yes, that is part of the ugly picture, but the medical equipment companies are another profit facet along with the drug companies.
On a positive note, this is what can happen when teams work together. Hope Musk gets in touch with Dyson and licenses production.








						James Dyson designed a new ventilator in 10 days. He's making 15,000 for the pandemic fight
					

Dyson has received an order from the UK government for 10,000 ventilators to support efforts by the country's National Health Service to treat coronavirus patients.




					www.cnn.com
				




10 days from design, to review, to approval and an order for 15,000.


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## CaptSpiff

mcdougy said:


> I hope it will be a case of World healthcare. If trillions can be created, human survival should be addressed on a global level, leaving no man left behind.


So do you really believe the US Govt just created $2.2 trillion ?
I see it as borrowed. Just simply added onto the $20+ trillion debt already carried by the US taxpayer.

The numbers are still a bit fuzzy, but with about 330 million US population, that would be about $6,700 borrowed per US person. 
I look at that as the avg family will pay $20,000 extra over the next 20 years on their tax bill, plus another $20,000 interest over those 20 years. Were you expecting to be saddled with $40,000 of extra taxes over the next 20 years?

What'll really tip you over is that the total portion of the $1200 cash payment for every taxfiler, plus the $600 per dependent child, is only estimated to cost $330 billion.
That's only 15% of the total $2.2 trillion.
Your Government at work.


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## NickW

CaptSpiff said:


> So do you really believe the US Govt just created $2.2 trillion ?
> I see it as borrowed. Just simply added onto the $20+ trillion debt already carried by the US taxpayer.
> 
> The numbers are still a bit fuzzy, but with about 330 million US population, that would be about $6,700 borrowed per US person.
> I look at that as the avg family will pay $20,000 extra over the next 20 years on their tax bill, plus another $20,000 interest over those 20 years. Were you expecting to be saddled with $40,000 of extra taxes over the next 20 years?
> 
> What'll really tip you over is that the total portion of the $1200 cash payment for every taxfiler, plus the $600 per dependent child, is only estimated to cost $330 billion.
> That's only 15% of the total $2.2 trillion.
> Your Government at work.


And they should run the healthcare system...?


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## Medic21

NickW said:


> And they should run the healthcare system...?


They basically do now.  Drs don’t decide when your hospital stay is over or what treatments you get.  Medicare, Medicaid which is the government and now private insurance uses their guidelines and decides what medical care you get.


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## NickW

Medic21 said:


> They basically do now.  Drs don’t decide when your hospital stay is over or what treatments you get.  Medicare, Medicaid which is the government and now private insurance uses their guidelines and decides what medical care you get.


True to a point... Blew my acl a year and a half ago; called and saw the family doc, sent me to the specialist, who sent me for an MRI and then replaced it. Yes, it needed approval; but in a completely government run operation I'd probably still be waiting for surgery because you can "live" with a blown acl... Maybe that's a little exaggerated, but I believe the private sector can do anything more efficiently than government. I think we have the right idea in this country, it's just poorly executed - too much special interests and pork...


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## NickW

Medic21 said:


> I’ll give you the other side of it.  I pick up grandma after being on a ventilator for sepsis and taker back to the nursing home.  Then I pick her up 16 hours later and put her back in a ventilator and she goes back into the icu.  Difference is the hospital can’t bill because she was admitted again within 24 hours but, the only reason she was discharged was because her ICD code only allowed so many days of admission, not because the dr wanted her to be discharged.
> 
> I see this every shift I work.


Agreed! Absolutely terrible! An example of special interests (insurance companies) influencing care instead of need dictating care... Doctors should have absolute control over the needs of patients. 

Do we really think the government having full control of healthcare would improve it? (Because it does such a stellar job with everything else they run...)


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## mcdougy

Ok mercy, there's no hope for the u.s.a because many people have accepted that nothing can be done.......don't forget YOU are supposed to be the government.


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## milothecat

I am from the great confederation of Canukistan. I have had two children that were born premature and had to spend time in the nicu. I also have a brother in law that experienced kidney failure and my wife donated her kidney to him. In my experiences with our health care system, the care we experienced was nothing short of stellar. The problem comes when you are not on deaths door and can live with whatever problem you have. Then you wait for diagnostic tests or to see a specialist.  I have faith in our system and believe that we will fare better than our neighbors to the south.  So to answer your question Medic21, yes I believe that the government can handle the health system. It would be nice to have a hybrid sort of system though as I see it. If you have a non life threatening problem that you want dealt with promptly  and you have money to spend to do it, we should be able to. This is not the case unless you want to take a trip south.


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## festerw

The funny thing is that just because you're paying for insurance doesn't mean your getting care quickly either.  My Mom had a hip replacement a couple years ago, it took 8 months from the first doctors visit to actually get it done. Including 6 weeks of physical therapy she had to go through because the insurance company wouldn't pay for an MRI until it was done. Oh and the insurance company didn't cover the 2x weekly appointments at $65/visit. After getting the surgery her portion after insurance paid was still $10k.

Peoples health should not be a for profit business.


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## peakbagger

Looks like a major thread drift to a very controversial health care subject that is not going to resolved in time to impact the current CV-19 pandemic . IMHO best to split it off into another thread.


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## milothecat

Maybe I am ignorant to the way things operate down there. I have heard stories of people needing an MRI or CT scan, not life threatening. Wait for months, get put off or told you will get it in 4 months. Call the nearest center south of the border, make an appointment for a week from now. Make a day trip, get your diagnostic imaging and pay your money. Doctor can now proceed instead of waiting months.


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## Woody Stover

begreen said:


> We can and should do better. Healthcare should be a national priority and not a profit center...It is the unpreparedness that is concerning.


You mean the prime directive shouldn't be capitalism? What are you, some kinda Commie?? 
I'm pretty sure that an investment in some "insurance" i.e. preparation for what was no doubt inevitable (that we would eventually confront something like this) would have cost us a helluva lot less the two friggin' trillion bucks.  And that's only enough to get us through the first few weeks. Thanks a lot, all you money-grubbing bass terds.


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## begreen

Woody Stover said:


> You mean the prime directive shouldn't be capitalism? What are you, some kinda Commie??
> I'm pretty sure that an investment in some "insurance" i.e. preparation for what was no doubt inevitable (that we would eventually confront something like this) would have cost us a helluva lot less the two friggin' trillion bucks.  And that's only enough to get us through the first few weeks. Thanks a lot, all you money-grubbing bass terds.


If I am then so is every other industrialized nation. We stand alone amongst developed countries without national healthcare. This is going to bite a lot of people in the ass as they are laid off and suddenly lose their insurance - in the middle of a health crisis. Feeling great again?


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## Woody Stover

begreen said:


> If I am then so is every other industrialized nation. We stand alone without national healthcare. This is going to bite a lot of people in the ass as they are suddenly laid off and with it their health care.


I'll offer them this advice; At all times, keep your hands six feet away from your face...even your smilie face.


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## MTY

On  October 17, 2017, 45 years to the day I was drafted, I applied for VA benefits.  I am still waiting for the promised exam.  The VA is government health care, or at least it is supposed to be.  If I showed up two and a half years late for induction, I would either be in jail or an elected official.  
And to make this relevant to this thread, a couple days ago I received a phone call canceling the scheduled appointment due to the pandemic.  So, should I be stricken by the WUFLU I am on my own.


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## ssheil

peakbagger said:


> I would question the Spanish Flu statistic. Its source appears to be the Chinese government which needs to be taken with a big grain of salt. Ideally now that the cat is out of the bag, I expect the Chinese state is ill equipped to test for the number of people who caught it and had minimal symptoms, while counting fatalities is pretty easy. There is reportedly a  major respiratory component to the CV-19 virus. Chinese cities are notorious for very poor long term air quality and that means a lot of the population has compromised respiratory systems to begin with. The Chinese military owns the cigarette companies and use it as source of revenue. Cigarette smoking has exploded in the last few decades which also leads to compromised lungs to begin with.  Someone with COPD and other long term lung issues are probably the ones that really need to worry. Sadly I have a few friends that are chain smokers and already are on the cusp of COPD that I worry about. One of the them is big listener to conservative talk radio so he is lapping up folks like Rush spinning "alternative truth"
> 
> Some of the data trickling out is large number of the fatalities are elderly with other significant medical issues. I am not particularly worried about myself as I don't have any pulmonary issues, but expect its going to hit some elderly portions of the population. The biggest issue I see is the paranoia of  folks.  The current administration has been steadily cutting public heath funding so the CDC and had a war on science in general so a lot of the resources that were there have retired or left government service.  The media loves it as it get eyeballs on the screen and that also leads to paranoia.


Unfortunately, previous administrations have also cut funding for public health.  Many states have also been de-funding rural and other hospitals as a cost savings to consolidate.


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## AlbergSteve

This kind of batshittery doesn't help anyone either...









						Medical Expert Who Corrects Trump Is Now a Target of the Far Right (Published 2020)
					

Dr. Anthony Fauci, the administration’s most outspoken advocate of emergency virus measures, faces a torrent of false claims that he is mobilizing to undermine the president.




					www.nytimes.com


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## paulnlee

MTY said:


> On  October 17, 2017, 45 years to the day I was drafted, I applied for VA benefits.  I am still waiting for the promised exam.  The VA is government health care, or at least it is supposed to be.  If I showed up two and a half years late for induction, I would either be in jail or an elected official.
> And to make this relevant to this thread, a couple days ago I received a phone call canceling the scheduled appointment due to the pandemic.  So, should I be stricken by the WUFLU I am on my own.


You need a sponsor, I used the Legion, filed for agent orange diabetes in Sept 19, got 6 mo's $$ on Mar1, added my wife last weekend and got 6 mo's $$ this week. My appt for VA medical was cancelled also. In addition you're gonna get one helluva back payment if they credit your date of file (DOF) from 2017


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## woodnomore

MTY said:


> On  October 17, 2017, 45 years to the day I was drafted, I applied for VA benefits.  I am still waiting for the promised exam.  The VA is government health care, or at least it is supposed to be.  If I showed up two and a half years late for induction, I would either be in jail or an elected official.
> And to make this relevant to this thread, a couple days ago I received a phone call canceling the scheduled appointment due to the pandemic.  So, should I be stricken by the WUFLU I am on my own.



I am called a right wing racist because I believe there should not be an illegal allowed in the country until the veterans can get the health care they were promised for serving our country.


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## Ashful

mcdougy said:


> I would think it can be done as many/most countries do it currently.


... and I’ve visited and/or worked in many of those countries.  I’ll just say I’m glad I live here.  People who talk about what other countries do, ignoring how infinitely better nearly everything else is here, remind me of my kids complaining that a given schoolmate has one toy they don’t.  They’re naive to notice all the privedges they have which thatother kid does not.


Medic21 said:


> I highly doubt much will be done after this to prepare for the next. This is a numbers and money driven industry. From what I’ve seen in the past well learn lessons on how to react better. But we won’t plan for the future.


Change your news channel.  It seems all CNN can talk about is mobile morgues being set up, as it fits their narrative, but they’re mostly ignoring the mobile hospitals that were mobilized ten days ago and set up last week, and the hospital ships that were mobilized a week ago and already up and running today.  The ship in NYC has 1000 beds and 12 ORs, and is there to provide a Corona-free hospital zone while the hospitals are being used mostly for Corona cases.









						What to know about the Navy hospital ships coming to New York and California
					

The ships will treat patients who don't have coronavirus.




					www.google.com
				




and





__





						Redirect Notice
					





					www.google.com
				






Medic21 said:


> If you want to see the profit side of healthcare look at the insurance companies.  Hospitas don’t make the money, they get by.


Exactly.  Worth repeating.  And who owns the insurance companies?  You, me, everyone with a diversified 401k or stock portfolio.









						Best Healthcare Stocks to Buy in 2022 | The Motley Fool
					

From pharmaceuticals to medical devices to cannabis stocks, learn how make money by investing in the healthcare companies changing the world.




					www.fool.com
				






begreen said:


> Yes, that is part of the ugly picture, but the medical equipment companies are another profit facet along with the drug companies.


I’m not sure I’d call them ugly when they provide the technology that saves you or a family member from something considered fatal or incurable in the recent past.  Medical research is insanely expensive, with decades-long ROI and many research projects that dead-end and must be paid for by another more successful protocol.  It is also an area of business fraught with liability of its own.  I’ve lost a few too-young family members in the last 30 years to cancers  that would be considered curable today, God bless the medical research companies for the lives they have been able to save, since.



CaptSpiff said:


> So do you really believe the US Govt just created $2.2 trillion ?
> I see it as borrowed. Just simply added onto the $20+ trillion debt already carried by the US taxpayer.
> 
> The numbers are still a bit fuzzy, but with about 330 million US population, that would be about $6,700 borrowed per US person.
> I look at that as the avg family will pay $20,000 extra over the next 20 years on their tax bill,


This is a good FAQ onthe source and impact of this $2T spending bill:









						How will the U.S. pay for $2 trillion coronavirus stimulus package?
					

Where will all that money for massive amounts of health and economic aid come from? Can America afford the added debt?




					www.google.com
				






NickW said:


> Do we really think the government having full control of healthcare would improve it? (Because it does such a stellar job with everything else they run...)


Hopefully this isn’t too political, but it’s too fun to not post it:


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## mcdougy

woodnomore said:


> I am called a right wing racist because I believe there should not be an illegal allowed in the country until the veterans can get the health care they were promised for serving our country.


Who are you upset with? The immigrant or the government? I don't see how the 2 situations coincide? I do agree it's a tragedy that a veteran struggles to be looked after by it's own.  I also wonder how many doctor's would that view eliminate? Here,  I know that the majority of doctors are what you may consider immigrants.


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## woodnomore

mcdougy said:


> Who are you upset with? The immigrant or the government? I don't see how the 2 situations coincide? I do agree it's a tragedy that a veteran struggles to be looked after by it's own.  I also wonder how many doctor's would that view eliminate? Here,  I know that the majority of doctors are what you may consider immigrants.



People that sneak into the US are not immigrants. I should have clarified. Not sure where you live but I have never been in a hospital or clinic where the majority of staff are immigrants. Sorry not sorry I said illegal in my post.


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## WinterinWI

begreen said:


> If I am then so is every other industrialized nation. We stand alone amongst developed countries without national healthcare.



Because everyone else is doing it has never been a good indicator that something is a good idea.



begreen said:


> Feeling great again?



Don't worry, Ol Joe will save you come November. I kind of doubt he'll remember how to put his own pants on by then.


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## mcdougy

Ashful said:


> and I’ve visited and/or worked in many of those countries. I’ll just say I’m glad I live here. People who talk about what other countries do, ignoring how infinitely better nearly everything else is here,


I doubt your view changes from person to person, whatever country they reside.  I'm suspecting there are alot of people wondering if their in the right place right now?  It's not too nice of a outlook for many places.


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## mcdougy

milothecat said:


> Maybe I am ignorant to the way things operate down there. I have heard stories of people needing an MRI or CT scan, not life threatening. Wait for months, get put off or told you will get it in 4 months. Call the nearest center south of the border, make an appointment for a week from now. Make a day trip, get your diagnostic imaging and pay your money. Doctor can now proceed instead of waiting months.


It's a priority based system for sure. Walking in to ER with your head smashed in or suffering from a possible heart attack, away you go for the testing required. Limping with pain from a bad hip, expect to be shuffled back in the line. Basic triage essentially. These "delays" are true, but they are/ were a main focus to correct. Without a doubt, Canada's healthcare can be improved, but in general it is world class. We definitely pay for it via taxes, but the fact that everyone has access without red tape appears to be a miracle in the eyes of many.


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## woodnomore

mcdougy said:


> It's a priority based system for sure. Walking in to ER with your head smashed in or suffering from a possible heart attack, away you go for the testing required. Limping with pain from a bad hip, expect to be shuffled back in the line. Basic triage essentially. These "delays" are true, but they are/ were a main focus to correct. Without a doubt, Canada's healthcare can be improved, but in general it is world class. We definitely pay for it via taxes, but the fact that everyone has access without red tape appears to be a miracle in the eyes of many.



Whoa hold on there I had a fire crew up in Canada, did not witness world class medical care when there were injuries.


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## mcdougy

woodnomore said:


> Whoa hold on there I had a fire crew up in Canada, did not witness world class medical care when there were injuries.


Such as what? They said sorry chum, your insurance doesn't cover this?


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## woodnomore

mcdougy said:


> Such as what? They said sorry chum, your insurance doesn't cover this?



I was not injured I had crew members that did. In the states when you are working on a fire the incident takes care of all injuries, as far as expense, so insurance was not the issue. If a guy has an injury and the knee is obviously swollen an x ray or MRI is needed to diagnose the injury, not here is some drugs get the tests when you go home.


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## ABMax24

mcdougy said:


> It's a priority based system for sure. Walking in to ER with your head smashed in or suffering from a possible heart attack, away you go for the testing required. Limping with pain from a bad hip, expect to be shuffled back in the line. Basic triage essentially. These "delays" are true, but they are/ were a main focus to correct. Without a doubt, Canada's healthcare can be improved, but in general it is world class. We definitely pay for it via taxes, but the fact that everyone has access without red tape appears to be a miracle in the eyes of many.



Unfortunately as a fellow Canadian I have to disagree with some of this. I probably know just as many people with botched diagnosis and treatments as those with proper care. Particularly in regard to cancer treatment, my younger brother at 21 lost his best friend to cancer that started with a lump on his elbow which was diagnosed as tennis elbow, it was only realized he had cancer once he developed chest pain from the cancer spreading to his lungs, at that point there wasn't much they could do. I also had a neighbor in his mid 60's with a similar ordeal, had cancer was treated and then diagnosed cancer free, he died a month later of cancer. My aunt was also diagnosed with leukemia last year and underwent treatment, she finally got to the point she had to walk in and demand tests and transfusions to keep her alive because the system seemed to loose interest in her case. She fortunately made a successful recovery.

The cost is also not free for most cancer treatments, many of the specialty drugs required to treat it aren't covered by the government and in many cases cost $5k+ per month. My brother's best friend was this case, but they also had 4 other children to feed at that time, how does a family make choices like that? I also worked with a gentlemen whose wife fought cancer for 5 years before passing, same deal $4k per month for drugs, he spent his entire retirement savings on this.

I definitely don't like the fact that the US system is un-affordable for many people, but the level of care is outstanding. I know I'm an extreme example here in Canada, and that most do have successful outcomes, but our system is far from perfect.


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## woodnomore

ABMax24 said:


> Unfortunately as a fellow Canadian I have to disagree with some of this. I probably know just as many people with botched diagnosis and treatments as those with proper care. Particularly in regard to cancer treatment, my younger brother at 21 lost his best friend to cancer that started with a lump on his elbow which was diagnosed as tennis elbow, it was only realized he had cancer once he developed chest pain from the cancer spreading to his lungs, at that point there wasn't much they could do. I also had a neighbor in his mid 60's with a similar ordeal, had cancer was treated and then diagnosed cancer free, he died a month later of cancer. My aunt was also diagnosed with leukemia last year and underwent treatment, she finally got to the point she had to walk in and demand tests and transfusions to keep her alive because the system seemed to loose interest in her case. She fortunately made a successful recovery.
> 
> The cost is also not free for most cancer treatments, many of the specialty drugs required to treat it aren't covered by the government and in many cases cost $5k+ per month. My brother's best friend was this case, but they also had 4 other children to feed at that time, how does a family make choices like that? I also worked with a gentlemen whose wife fought cancer for 5 years before passing, same deal $4k per month for drugs, he spent his entire retirement savings on this.
> 
> I definitely don't like the fact that the US system is un-affordable for many people, but the level of care is outstanding. I know I'm an extreme example here in Canada, and that most do have successful outcomes, but our system is far from perfect.



There are many Americans that can not afford insurance but they can afford a smart phone with internet access, new vehicles, and the latest fashions.


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## mcdougy

Hmmmm....not sure what that indicates? I'm going to guess if there was a significant injury it would have been looked after immediately.  Not down playing any injury but a person with a swollen knee, is usually not a case of immediate fixing. Generally fixed with rehab, I seriously doubt a x-ray was not taken to determine the severity. 

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. I am only speaking in regards to the global issue we are facing currently. My views are that it's a tragedy that people are faced with the reality that WE the world are showing that healthcare needs to be better. The fact that 500,000  or more may succumb to this virus, including 1000's of healthcare/Frontline workers is WRONG. And unfortunately the directions of world leaders and there associates will have a outcome on how many people die is unsettling.


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## woodnomore

mcdougy said:


> Hmmmm....not sure what that indicates? I'm going to guess if there was a significant injury it would have been looked after immediately.  Not down playing any injury but a person with a swollen knee, is usually not a case of immediate fixing. Generally fixed with rehab, I seriously doubt a x-ray was not taken to determine the severity.
> 
> I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. I am only speaking in regards to the global issue we are facing currently. My views are that it's a tragedy that people are faced with the reality that WE the world are showing that healthcare needs to be better. The fact that 500,000  or more may succumb to this virus, including 1000's of healthcare/Frontline workers is WRONG. And unfortunately the directions of world leaders and there associates will have a outcome on how many people die is unsettling.



I was with the injured crew member there was no x-ray, not sure why you think I would lie about it. The guy was injured on the job, assisting overwhelmed local resources. I am not talking about a little swelling, as it turned out the guy had a torn ligament. No worries Canada the Minnesota Dept of forestry covered the workman comp claim.


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## kborndale

begreen said:


> If I am then so is every other industrialized nation. We stand alone amongst developed countries without national healthcare. This is going to bite a lot of people in the ass as they are laid off and suddenly lose their insurance - in the middle of a health crisis. Feeling great again?



Once laid off wouldn't they qualify for medicare?


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## mcdougy

A quick Google search ranks the countries as far as health care.  Many may be surprised at the rankings, especially what's considered No# 2 in the world.


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## begreen

kborndale said:


> Once laid off wouldn't they qualify for medicare?


No. We do not have universal Medicare. Some low wage earners could qualify for Medicaid. Some states may be modifying requirements due to this health emergency. ACA also offers some options for some depending on the state one lives in. 14 states have refused to expand Medicaid under the ACA, leaving more than 2 million people in poverty without health insurance. The CDC has stated that corona virus testing and care will be covered, but so far there is not a mechanism for payment.  This is a serious national issue.








						How do 3 million newly unemployed people get health care?
					

The uninsured rate is spiking in the middle of a pandemic.




					www.vox.com


----------



## begreen

mcdougy said:


> A quick Google search ranks the countries as far as health care.  Many may be surprised at the rankings, especially what's considered No# 2 in the world.


Would that be Cuba?


----------



## Ashful

mcdougy said:


> Such as what? They said sorry chum, your insurance doesn't cover this?


C’mon... let’s be honest, here. 





__





						Can an Uninsured Patient Be Denied Emergency Treatment?
					

If you don't have health insurance, the hospital probably still needs to give you emergency care, and failure to do so can equal medical malpractice.




					www.alllaw.com


----------



## begreen

Ashful said:


> C’mon... let’s be honest, here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can an Uninsured Patient Be Denied Emergency Treatment?
> 
> 
> If you don't have health insurance, the hospital probably still needs to give you emergency care, and failure to do so can equal medical malpractice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.alllaw.com


'merica








						Teen Who Died of Covid-19 Was Denied Treatment Because He Didn't Have Health Insurance
					

A 17-year-old boy in Los Angeles County who became the first teen believed to have died from complications with covid-19 in the U.S. was denied treatment at an urgent care clinic because he didn’t have health insurance, according to R. Rex Parris, the mayor of Lancaster, California. Roughly 27.5...




					gizmodo.com
				











						Total Cost of Her COVID-19 Treatment: $34,927.43
					

Getting hospitalized in the U.S. for COVID-19 may cost thousands. How much of that you'll pay depends on your insurance.




					time.com


----------



## johneh

*Countries With the Most Well-Developed Public Health Care Systems*


			https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/slideshows/countries-with-the-most-well-developed-public-health-care-system


----------



## mcdougy

WHO ranks Italy as no #2.  Canada  no #30
USA no# 37


----------



## begreen

Meanwhile, Portugal has a surprisingly low number of cases compared to neighboring Spain.








						Portugal to treat migrants as residents during coronavirus crisis
					

All foreigners in Portugal with pending applications will be treated as permanent residents from Monday until at least July 1, authorities said on Saturday, to ensure migrants have access to public services during the coronavirus outbreak.




					uk.reuters.com


----------



## begreen

mcdougy said:


> WHO ranks Italy as no #2.  Canada  no #30
> USA no# 37


That's a ranking of efficiency, right?
Here is another ranking. Italy didn't make it into the top 10, but Canada again topped the list. -







__





						Best Healthcare in the World 2022
					





					worldpopulationreview.com


----------



## milothecat

Our system is far from perfect. The thing that makes me feel better about the current situation is that it doesn't matter if you are the ceo of a mulimillion dollar company, a movie star, average joe or the unfortunate guy on skid row without a penny to their name, you will get the same care in Canada. In the U.S. if you have no insurance, are you going to run to the hospital when you get a fever and a cough? Probably not. Then you might still go to work because you have to and spread it some more.  And in the last couple of weeks many more have lost their jobs and are without insurance.  I feel terrible for those who get care and then have a hospital bill that will cripple them financially. At least in our system you can go and get the care you need without worrying about the cost.


----------



## Medic21

milothecat said:


> Our system is far from perfect. The thing that makes me feel better about the current situation is that it doesn't matter if you are the ceo of a mulimillion dollar company, a movie star, average joe or the unfortunate guy on skid row without a penny to their name, you will get the same care in Canada. In the U.S. if you have no insurance, are you going to run to the hospital when you get a fever and a cough? Probably not. Then you might still go to work because you have to and spread it some more.  And in the last couple of weeks many more have lost their jobs and are without insurance.  I feel terrible for those who get care and then have a hospital bill that will cripple them financially. At least in our system you can go and get the care you need without worrying about the cost.


Funny thing is if you have no job, no insurance, etc you qualify for Medicaid.  With that you will never see a bill.  While some need it a lot are free loaders on the system.  So it comes down to having a good job and good insurance you are the one that is crippled in the end.  No job and you’re golden with a serious medical problem.


----------



## SpaceBus

Medic21 said:


> Funny thing is if you have no job, no insurance, etc you qualify for Medicaid.  With that you will never see a bill.  While some need it a lot are free loaders on the system.  So it comes down to having a good job and good insurance you are the one that is crippled in the end.  No job and you’re golden with a serious medical problem.


What is your sample size for the free loader comment? What are the demographics? What constitutes a free loader?


----------



## Medic21

SpaceBus said:


> What is your sample size for the free loader comment? What are the demographics? What constitutes a free loader?


The majority of the runs I make as a Paramedic with those on Medicaid are only on it because they know how to play a game and stay on unemployment.


----------



## SpaceBus

Medic21 said:


> The majority of the runs I make as a Paramedic with those on Medicaid are only on it because they know how to play a game and stay on unemployment.


So what percentage of medicaid recipients have you transported in your state?


----------



## Medic21

SpaceBus said:


> So what percentage of medicaid recipients have you transported in your state?


Our runs break down to 76% out of 3200 runs a year are medicaid pay.


----------



## SpaceBus

Medic21 said:


> Our runs break down to 76% out of 3200 runs a year are medicaid pay.


Yes, but what percentage of the total state medicaid recipients are you transporting? That's what I mean about sample size.


----------



## Medic21

SpaceBus said:


> So what percentage of medicaid recipients have you transported in your state?


Medicaid recipients are the single largest abuser of the EMS system.  They know we cannot bill them over what we are paid and we cannot deny transport to them.


----------



## mcdougy

The Daily Shot: How High Will the U.S. Unemployment Rate Get?
					






					www.wsj.com


----------



## SpaceBus

Medic21 said:


> Medicaid recipients are the single largest abuser of the EMS system.  They know we cannot bill them over what we are paid and we cannot deny transport to them.


The majority of your clients might be on medicaid, you do not transport enough medicaid recipients to make the judgment that most are freeloaders.


----------



## Medic21

SpaceBus said:


> The majority of your clients might be on medicaid, you do not transport enough medicaid recipients to make the judgment that most are freeloaders.


You wanna know what’s funny about that statement?  Unemployment has dropped to the lowest its ever been but, the percentage of medicaid transports stayed the same.  

Disability will qualify for Medicare so those people are not in the same demographic.  There is a saying around here we hear on the ambulance and the ER hears.  “We have the Caid” until you experience it you have no clue.


----------



## woodnomore

begreen said:


> We can and should do better. Healthcare should be a national priority and not a profit center.



So a Dr going to medical school spends a fortune for education and training to become a Dr. It takes special skills and abilities as well as drive to achieve one of the most expensive degrees. I do not begrudge any Dr's income they earned it.


----------



## SpaceBus

woodnomore said:


> So a Dr going to medical school spends a fortune for education and training to become a Dr. It takes special skills and abilities as well as drive to achieve one of the most expensive degrees. I do not begrudge any Dr's income they earned it.


Perhaps med school shouldn't be so expensive. Poor people aren't stupid, they just can't afford to become doctors or nurses.


----------



## Medic21

woodnomore said:


> So a Dr going to medical school spends a fortune for education and training to become a Dr. It takes special skills and abilities as well as drive to achieve one of the most expensive degrees. I do not begrudge any Dr's income they earned it.


Median income for physicians is actually lower than you think.  $188k-$218k a year depending on source, while the bottom 25% is roughly $88k a year.  I make $82k a year as a manager in an EMS system so it’s not that good.  I’ve said it many times.  The money in healthcare lies solely with insurance companies, 23.4 BILLION in profit last year.


----------



## bholler

Medic21 said:


> The majority of the runs I make as a Paramedic with those on Medicaid are only on it because they know how to play a game and stay on unemployment.


How do you know that?  Did you do a full evaluation of their financials??   Check everyone in the household for disabilities etc?  I am not saying there are not many taking advantage of the system.  But many are working low paying jobs and still not making it.


----------



## bholler

woodnomore said:


> So a Dr going to medical school spends a fortune for education and training to become a Dr. It takes special skills and abilities as well as drive to achieve one of the most expensive degrees. I do not begrudge any Dr's income they earned it.


The Drs pay is a tiny percentage of what makes our Heath are as expensive as it is.


----------



## bholler

Medic21 said:


> Median income for physicians is actually lower than you think.  $188k-$218k a year depending on source, while the bottom 25% is roughly $88k a year.  I make $82k a year as a manager in an EMS system so it’s not that good.  I’ve said it many times.  The money in healthcare lies solely with insurance companies, 23.4 BILLION in profit last year.


Yet you keep saying private insurance with no govt intervention is the answer.  That is what got us where we are today.


----------



## Medic21

bholler said:


> How do you know that?  Did you do a full evaluation of their financials??   Check everyone in the household for disabilities etc?  I am not saying there are not many taking advantage of the system.  But many are working low paying jobs and still not making it.



I put insurance information and employment information into every chart as does every employee.  It’s part of the chart.

if they are disabled they are on medicare not Medicaid.


----------



## Medic21

bholler said:


> Yet you keep saying private insurance with no govt intervention is the answer.  That is what got us where we are today.


I have never said that once.  All I have said is if you think the government can run healthcare you’re an idiot.  Government ran programs have lowered payments so much its impossible to survive and now private insurance is following suit while making billions in profits and screwing over the policy holders with huge balance bills.  

Don’t try to put words in my mouth.


----------



## bholler

Medic21 said:


> I put insurance information and employment information into every chart as does every employee.  It’s part of the chart.


Ok and when did they last work?  Are they stuck home taking care of a disabled relative etc?   You are making blanket statements about an entire segment of the population based on your limited experience with your patients in one specific area of the country.


----------



## Medic21

bholler said:


> How do you know that?  Did you do a full evaluation of their financials??   Check everyone in the household for disabilities etc?  I am not saying there are not many taking advantage of the system.  But many are working low paying jobs and still not making it.


I think I also said “while some actually need it”

There is a need for it but, it is abused too easily.


----------



## SpaceBus

The majority of all social welfare (medicaid, medicare, WIC, etc.) are on the up and up. You will of course see some chronic abusers of the system, as there are with all systems. Kids learn how to game systems very young, it is something we all do.


----------



## bholler

Medic21 said:


> I have never said that once.  All I have said is if you think the government can run healthcare you’re an idiot.  Government ran programs have lowered payments so much its impossible to survive and now private insurance is following suit while making billions in profits and screwing over the policy holders with huge balance bills.
> 
> Don’t try to put words in my mouth.


Ok I misunderstood.  I am just curious what you feel the answer is if it is not govt or privately run?


----------



## bholler

Medic21 said:


> I think I also said “while some actually need it”
> 
> There is a need for it but, it is abused too easily.


I agree with that.   But the majority on it are working poor.  Now I know some intentionally stay below a certain income so they don't get cut off but part of that is a problem with the system.  If they could get partial benifits it could help minimise that.


----------



## Medic21

bholler said:


> Ok I misunderstood.  I am just curious what you feel the answer is if it is not govt or privately run?


the answer for EMS especially, is to raise Medicaid reimbursement rates.  They have not been increased Nationwide since 1977.  

the service I came from last year has a 3.1 million budget for three trucks. We wrote off 1 million dollars of reimbursement that Medicaid did not pay based on billing. We made 2.1million in revenue after that. That leaves 1 million for tax payers to compensate to just break even. Granted that is just to break even.

my current company is about $500k a quarter in losses based on what we receive vs billing amount to Medicaid. We run 5X the number of runs a year but, that is how government treats healthcare.

Here is a good case. 71 year old cardiac arrest I had. We got her back and to the cath lab. She never stopped in the ER once, from my cot to the cath lab table. She was medicaid and we billed $4200 which was break even for supplies and equipment used. The Medicaid reimbursement was $229.00.

Had she went into arrest in the ER the bill would have been upwards of $30k for the exact care I gave her. They would have recouped the money.

EMS as you know it will cease to exist as long as the abuse of the system and low reimbursements continue.  And, it will cease within the next 10 years.


----------



## bholler

Medic21 said:


> the answer for EMS especially, is to raise Medicaid reimbursement rates.  They have not been increased Nationwide since 1977.
> 
> the service I came from last year has a 3.1 million budget for three trucks. We wrote off 1 million dollars of reimbursement that Medicaid did not pay based on billing. We made 2.1million in revenue after that. That leaves 1 million for tax payers to compensate to just break even. Granted that is just to break even.
> 
> my current company is about $500k a quarter in losses based on what we receive vs billing amount to Medicaid. We run 5X the number of runs a year but, that is how government treats healthcare.
> 
> Here is a good case. 71 year old cardiac arrest I had. We got her back and to the cath lab. She never stopped in the ER once, from my cot to the cath lab table. She was medicaid and we billed $4200 which was break even for supplies and equipment used. The Medicaid reimbursement was $229.00.
> 
> Had she went into arrest in the ER the bill would have been upwards of $30k for the exact care I gave her. They would have recouped the money.
> 
> EMS as you know it will cease to exist as long as the abuse of the system and low reimbursements continue.  And, it will cease within the next 10 years.


And if that happens it will become a public service as it should be now and profits won't enter into it.  The fact that our healthcare system has so many layers of private profit driven companies involved is clearly going to drive prices through the roof.


----------



## Medic21

Oh, and to put a perspective on it.  Based on the median income for a Paramedic in Indiana if they have a family of 3 they qualify for Medicaid.  

brought to you by the government run healthcare system.  When you loose money at the end of the year you can only afford to pay $32,000 a year on average for a 2 year degree job.


----------



## Medic21

bholler said:


> And if that happens it will become a public service as it should be now and profits won't enter into it.  The fact that our healthcare system has so many layers of private profit driven companies involved is clearly going to drive prices through the roof.


EMS is not listed as an essential service amongst emergency services in our state or many others.  State code specifically says communities “may” provide a service not “shall”.   That pool of tax money for emergency services is sucked up by PD and FD trying to scrape by.  

Your taxes will drastically increase for it to be a tax base rather than a billed user base.


----------



## WinterinWI

begreen said:


> We can and should do better. Healthcare should be a national priority and not a profit center.



I'd agree with you that profit off of healthcare is a somewhat morbid practice, however, the motivation for profit is a much larger motivating force for advancement of any industry, healthcare not excluded. Once a single company or entity (Gov't) has control, motivation for excellence and better care is stifled. Unless of course you are a "citizen" of a dictatorship like China, where the fear of gov't retaliation against self/family is an extreme motivating force.


----------



## bholler

Medic21 said:


> EMS is not listed as an essential service amongst emergency services in our state or many others.  State code specifically says communities “may” provide a service not “shall”.   That pool of tax money for emergency services is sucked up by PD and FD trying to scrape by.
> 
> Your taxes will drastically increase for it to be a tax base rather than a billed user base.


It should also dramatically reduce operating expenses.   The way we are doing it now is not working for anyone but the insurance companies.  So why not change it?


----------



## bholler

WinterinWI said:


> I'd agree with you that profit off of healthcare is a somewhat morbid practice, however, the motivation for profit is a much larger motivating force for advancement of any industry, healthcare not excluded. Once a single company or entity (Gov't) has control, motivation for excellence and better care is stifled. Unless of course you are a "citizen" of a dictatorship like China, where the fear of gov't retaliation against self/family is an extreme motivating force.


That is true.  But all of that advancement doesn't help if people can no longer afford healthcare.


----------



## Medic21

bholler said:


> It should also dramatically reduce operating expenses.   The way we are doing it now is not working for anyone but the insurance companies.  So why not change it?


We have it running at as lean as it can go now.  A fully equipped and staffed Paramedic truck is a half a million dollars running down the road.  

$250,000 for the truck
$32,000 monitor
$30,000 Cot system
$25,000 Ventilator
Drugs
A ton of other equipment
Supplies
Personnel.  

we run on contracts of around $150,000 a year per truck and the rest comes from user fees. We then write off a bunch because of Medicare and Medicaid each year. The brunt of the payments come from balance billing what the private insurance does not pay So they can make their billions every year.

Fort Wayne Indiana tried to take over their EMS service a couple years ago. They would have doubled operating costs According to their own plans and projections. Indianapolis did for 2 years and lost a ton of money and contracted it back out.

What we need is a combination of public vs user funded that will make it better for all.


----------



## bholler

Medic21 said:


> We have it running at as lean as it can go now.  A fully equipped and staffed Paramedic truck is a half a million dollars running down the road.
> 
> $250,000 for the truck
> $32,000 monitor
> $30,000 Cot system
> $25,000 Ventilator
> Drugs
> A ton of other equipment
> Supplies
> Personnel.
> 
> we run on contracts of around $150,000 a year per truck and the rest comes from user fees. We then write off a bunch because of Medicare and Medicaid each year. The brunt of the payments come from balance billing what the private insurance does not pay So they can make their billions every year.
> 
> Fort Wayne Indiana tried to take over their EMS service a couple years ago. They would have doubled operating costs According to their own plans and projections. Indianapolis did for 2 years and lost a ton of money and contracted it back out.
> 
> What we need is a combination of public vs user funded that will make it better for all.


Most of those prices are drastically inflated as everything in the medical field is.  There is absolutely no reason the truck should cost anywhere near that much.


----------



## bholler

And yes publicly run ems will have high operating expenses if nothing else changes.  No way around that


----------



## WinterinWI

bholler said:


> Most of those prices are drastically inflated as everything in the medical field is.  There is absolutely no reason the truck should cost anywhere near that much.



Well, that's the cost of the business. Quarter million dollar truck sounds exorbitant, but are they going to chance it on something cheaper? The "I'll sue you" culture applies here, thus the high insurance costs.


----------



## milothecat

So could you enlighten us that are not in the U.S. about how medicaid and medicare work? I was under the impression that if you received healthcare down there that you or your insurance company received a bill for services rendered. I know that whenever I travel to the good ol' U.S.A that I am scared shirtless of having a car accident or other health emergency. I have good insurance, but you never know how good your insurance is until you need it.


----------



## Medic21

bholler said:


> Most of those prices are drastically inflated as everything in the medical field is.  There is absolutely no reason the truck should cost anywhere near that much.


$68k just for a chassis and a solid 2 months of labor  to build.  Onboard Oxygen systems, onboard suction systems, inventor systems, AC and heat systems with hepa and viral filter systems, interior and emergency lighting systems.  WiFi and GPS systems.  Hell the radios alone will cost $10k-$12k with installation from Motorola.  Restraint systems that would rival a fighter jet, the most dangerous place in an accident is in the back treating a pt.  the truck is a rolling ER room todayfor a Paramedic truck.  Sure you can buy cheaper, but the NFPA and DOT reccomend replacement every 5 years.  So remounting every 5 years for $100k-$150k is cheaper over 15-20 years than buying a cheap $150k truck that won’t last you 3 years till the box is wore out and causing you problems.  I am the fleet manager for our company.  

20 years ago I could get a fire engine for under $200k. Now they are close to a million for the same thing.

I have something like 62 different drugs I can administer in the truck today so it had changed drastically for capabilities each year I have been in this.


----------



## milothecat

I can absolutely see how an ambulance costs 250 000$. I fix agricultural equipment for a living and got a new service truck a few years ago. I was told the price tag was 90 000$.  I would hope an ambulance would cost more that a truck to follow roaund tractors and fix them.


----------



## bholler

WinterinWI said:


> Well, that's the cost of the business. Quarter million dollar truck sounds exorbitant, but are they going to chance it on something cheaper? The "I'll sue you" culture applies here, thus the high insurance costs.


Yet amazingly in Europe where they have evil socialized healthcare their ambulances cost a fraction of what they do here.


----------



## bholler

milothecat said:


> I can absolutely see how an ambulance costs 250 000$. I fix agricultural equipment for a living and got a new service truck a few years ago. I was told the price tag was 90 000$.  I would hope an ambulance would cost more that a truck to follow roaund tractors and fix them.


Yes more.  But why should it be that much more?  The answer is because they can charge it.


----------



## Medic21

milothecat said:


> So could you enlighten us that are not in the U.S. about how medicaid and medicare work? I was under the impression that if you received healthcare down there that you or your insurance company received a bill for services rendered. I know that whenever I travel to the good ol' U.S.A that I am scared shirtless of having a car accident or other health emergency. I have good insurance, but you never know how good your insurance is until you need it.


Yes, private insurance is billed.  Here they basically send a check for what they feel is an acceptable amount and the pt is on the hook for the rest.  

Medicaid and Medicare use an ICD code for whatever the issue was coded as.  They pay a set amount.  We are allowed to bill Medicare a very reduced rate but, can not touch Medicaid.   Our BLS average bill is $980 dollars for just a ride plus $31 a mile.  We receive $169 plus $3 a mile for service.  Average bill for ALS is $2600 plus same mileage.  We get paid $229 plus the $3 a mile.  Medicaid is killing EMS.


----------



## bholler

Medic21 said:


> $68k just for a chassis and a solid 2 months of labor  to build.  Onboard Oxygen systems, onboard suction systems, inventor systems, AC and heat systems with hepa and viral filter systems, interior and emergency lighting systems.  WiFi and GPS systems.  Hell the radios alone will cost $10k-$12k with installation from Motorola.  Restraint systems that would rival a fighter jet, the most dangerous place in an accident is in the back treating a pt.  the truck is a rolling ER room todayfor a Paramedic truck.  Sure you can buy cheaper, but the NFPA and DOT reccomend replacement every 5 years.  So remounting every 5 years for $100k-$150k is cheaper over 15-20 years than buying a cheap $150k truck that won’t last you 3 years till the box is wore out and causing you problems.  I am the fleet manager for our company.
> 
> 20 years ago I could get a fire engine for under $200k. Now they are close to a million for the same thing.
> 
> I have something like 62 different drugs I can administer in the truck today so it had changed drastically for capabilities each year I have been in this.


Again dramatically inflated prices.  Because they can charge it here.  They can't get close to that in other places.


----------



## Medic21

bholler said:


> Yet amazingly in Europe where they have evil socialized healthcare their ambulances cost a fraction of what they do here.


And, the care is a fraction of what we provide.  If you happen to get a dr you will get good advanced level care.  If you get a Paramedic here I can do way more than a RN and do not have to ask a Dr if I can.


----------



## Medic21

bholler said:


> Again dramatically inflated prices.  Because they can charge it here.  They can't get close to that in other places.


Our trucks are built in Canada


----------



## bholler

Medic21 said:


> And, the care is a fraction of what we provide.  If you happen to get a dr you will get good advanced level care.  If you get a Paramedic here I can do way more than a RN and do not have to ask a Dr if I can.


Yet their healthcare is consistently rated higher than ours.  Funny how that works.


----------



## bholler

Medic21 said:


> Our trucks are built in Canada


Ok and they are selling them here.


----------



## WinterinWI

bholler said:


> Again dramatically inflated prices.  Because they can charge it here.  They can't get close to that in other places.



Please. A lot of people think your quoted prices for chimneys are exorbitant as well. Yet you're not willing to cut your rate or quality of the products/service you provide.


----------



## Medic21

bholler said:


> Yet their healthcare is consistently rated higher than ours.  Funny how that works.


Not their prehospital care.  We invented the concept of advance prehospital care.  Where we use Paramedics the still use physicians for a lot of the advanced level care.  London is a good example.  They may only have one available for one lucky pt.  The rest get a ride to the hospital compared to what I am expected to do.


----------



## bholler

Medic21 said:


> Not their prehospital care.  We invented the concept of advance prehospital care.  Where we use Paramedics the still use physicians for a lot of the advanced level care.  London is a good example.  They may only have one available for one lucky pt.  The rest get a ride to the hospital compared to what I am expected to do.


But in the end the overall rating is higher.


----------



## WinterinWI

bholler said:


> But in the end the overall rating is higher.



If I was in a car accident tomorrow with a serious life threatening injury, would I choose to be in the US or EU?

My answer is the US.


----------



## Medic21

bholler said:


> But in the end the overall rating is higher.


Is that why our death rate of 4.4/million with this pandemic is lower than any other European country and dropping everyday while theirs is climbing?  Italy’s is over 1000/million

Spain is 146
Germany is 6
UK is 14

their healthcare is nowhere as advanced as ours.  Spend some time researching medical studies and you will find a vast majority comes out of the US because we are farther advanced that any other country.


----------



## bholler

WinterinWI said:


> If I was in a car accident tomorrow with a serious life threatening injury, would I choose to be in the US or EU?
> 
> My answer is the US.


That depends upon what insurance you have.  Yes you will get good care here but you may be bankrupt afterwards.  The ratings show the care you would get in much of the EU is as good if not better than here.


----------



## bholler

Again all of the advancement doesn't do any good if it is priced out of reach of most Americans.


----------



## mcdougy

[/QUOTE]


Medic21 said:


> Funny thing is if you have no job, no insurance, etc you qualify for Medicaid.  With that you will never see a bill.  While some need it a lot are free loaders on the system.  So it comes down to having a good job and good insurance you are the one that is crippled in the end.  No job and you’re golden with a serious medical problem.


Now that's a mouthful.....wonder if it could improve.  I will be honest, here, when the word insurance comes up, it's a license to steal for the provider. Ask a dentist, auto body, restoration company if there's 2 prices. One price they can survive on, one they get rich on.


----------



## Medic21

Now that's a mouthful.....wonder if it could improve.  I will be honest, here, when the word insurance comes up, it's a license to steal for the provider. Ask a dentist, auto body, restoration company if there's 2 prices. One price they can survive on, one they get rich on.
[/QUOTE]
It’s a wonderful thing when you look at payments where private insurance usually negotiates a reduced payment by 30%-60% but if you don’t have any insurance they won’t negotiate with you.

Our healthcare system for the actual pt care is not broken, it’s the best I the world.  Our financial side is completely fubar’d


----------



## AlbergSteve

Medic21 said:


> Is that why our death rate of 4.4/million with this pandemic is lower than any other European country and dropping everyday while theirs is climbing?  Italy’s is over 1000/million
> 
> Spain is 146
> Germany is 6
> UK is 14
> 
> their healthcare is nowhere as advanced as ours.  Spend some time researching medical studies and you will find a vast majority comes out of the US because we are farther advanced that any other country.


Too early and too many variables to make that statement.


----------



## Medic21

AlbergSteve said:


> Too early and too many variables to make that statement.


This is the daily tally.  And our ratio keeps widening every day.


----------



## woodnomore

SpaceBus said:


> Perhaps med school shouldn't be so expensive. Poor people aren't stupid, they just can't afford to become doctors or nurses.



If you were personally investing who would you bet on?


----------



## AlbergSteve

Medic21 said:


> Is that why our death rate of 4.4/million with this pandemic is lower than any other European country and dropping everyday while theirs is climbing?  Italy’s is over 1000/million
> 
> Spain is 146
> Germany is 6
> UK is 14
> 
> their healthcare is nowhere as advanced as ours.  Spend some time researching medical studies and you will find a vast majority comes out of the US because we are farther advanced that any other country.


Not sure where you got those stats, but as of this evening, the US is 8/million and Italy 170/million.


----------



## ABMax24

bholler said:


> Again dramatically inflated prices.  Because they can charge it here.  They can't get close to that in other places.



$250k for an ambulance isn't unreasonable. We had a 2019 F550 picker truck built for $160k, an ambulance is far more complex than an oilfield picker truck.

When you are the one in cardiac arrest or having a stroke do you want to ride in a real ambulance or one made by hasbro?


----------



## Medic21

AlbergSteve said:


> Not sure where you got those stats, but as of this evening, the US is 8/million and Italy 170/million.


I looked wrong.  Overall the world is at 4.4 and yes IS is at 8.  That number is dropping everyday.


----------



## AlbergSteve

Medic21 said:


> I looked wrong.  Overall the world is at 4.4 and yes IS is at 8.  That number is dropping everyday.


What number is dropping? The 8? You know that's not possible...


----------



## Medic21

AlbergSteve said:


> What number is dropping? The 8? You know that's not possible...


Why wouldn’t it.  The number of positive cases is growing exponentially faster than deaths.  It will most certainly drop since the majority of the cases are in the populations that do not die as easily from this.


----------



## AlbergSteve

Medic21 said:


> Why wouldn’t it.  The number of positive cases is growing exponentially faster than deaths.  It will most certainly drop since the majority of the cases are in the populations that do not die as easily from this.


The million part of that fraction is population, not positive cases. If the good doctor Fauci's numbers pan out, your number 8 will got to 606/million.


----------



## Medic21

AlbergSteve said:


> The million part of that fraction is population, not positive cases. If the good doctor Fauci's numbers pan out, your number 8 will got to 606/million.


The number 8 is deaths per millions.  That would mean the death rate would have to increase by 750% even though the largest populations being infected are the ones that recover.  The good dr is throwing numbers out there is no science with a range of 100,000 low to high.  I’ve never thought he was doing anything more than spreading fear.


----------



## AlbergSteve

Medic21 said:


> I’ve never thought he was doing anything more than spreading fear.


Yeah, that's what doctors do.


----------



## Medic21

AlbergSteve said:


> Yeah, that's what doctors do.


Education and respect for what we are dealing with is what’s needed.  Not fear.  Our healthcare system is the best in the world for pt care and more people will live here than anywhere else in the end.  We surpassed China, almost doubling their diagnoses cases with less deaths.  That says a lot.


----------



## mcdougy

I'm wondering about rushed testing resulting in false negatives.  It appears that a true negative is challenging for testing. I believe the new test procedure developed by the Illinois company, can show a positive result in 4 mins, while a negative takes 15 mins. Oh and the Illinois governor is telling that company not to ship ANY until that state is fully equipped first.  Im not sure what the timeframe is, but I'm guessing that won't be in a matter of hours or days.


----------



## SpaceBus

woodnomore said:


> If you were personally investing who would you bet on?


What? We are all personally investing. Most of us just don't see any returns.


----------



## SpaceBus

This is unbelievable. Folks still don't think this is serious and the president has agreed that the whole country needs to be closed down. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sc...s-from-sars-to-the-new-coronavirus1/?amp=true


----------



## begreen

Wonder where the new ventilators are? Well the Pentagon reports it has 2000 and has been waiting for 2 weeks to hear from HHS where they are to be delivered.

Meanwhile in Seattle, Ventec is a local company that was going to be contracted, but suddenly the govt. backed out. The spin that we are hearing from DC does not jibe with what Ventec is saying in the local papers. Here are the update and backstory on the GM ventilator deal and the crazy reason for this happening.  It's a long one, click on this to get to the timeline and the supporting links. The good news is that GM and Ventec have said screw you to DC and are making them anyway. 
GM is making ventilators in spite of DC.


----------



## AlbergSteve

Deaths per million in the US have doubled since Sunday.









						COVID Live Update: 178,771,638 Cases and 3,870,196 Deaths from the Coronavirus - Worldometer
					

Live statistics and coronavirus news tracking the number of confirmed cases, recovered patients, tests, and death toll due to the COVID-19 coronavirus from Wuhan, China. Coronavirus counter with new cases, deaths, and number of tests per 1 Million population. Historical data and info. Daily...




					www.worldometers.info


----------



## woodnomore

If anyone still believes national medical care is a good idea after watching the quagmire explain to me why.


----------



## Ashful

begreen said:


> Wonder where the new ventilators are? Well the Pentagon reports it has 2000 and has been waiting for 2 weeks to hear from HHS where they are to be delivered.
> 
> Meanwhile in Seattle, Ventec is a local company that was going to be contracted, but suddenly the govt. backed out. The spin that we are hearing from DC does not jibe with what Ventec is saying in the local papers. Here are the update and backstory on the GM ventilator deal and the crazy reason for this happening.  It's a long one, click on this to get to the timeline and the supporting links. The good news is that GM and Ventec have said screw you to DC and are making them anyway.
> GM is making ventilators in spite of DC.


Sounds like the  pres is favoring using companies that manufacture in the US, versus one that moved their manufacturing to Mexico.  You think that’s a bad thing?

Here’s what happens when American manufacturers make critical product overseas:









						How Decades of Offshoring Led to a Mask Shortage in a Pandemic
					

US companies have shifted production overseas, especially to China. We got cheaper products. But now we can't make vital health care supplies.




					www.google.com


----------



## bholler

woodnomore said:


> If anyone still believes national medical care is a good idea after watching the quagmire explain to me why.


Well our current system is a complete mess when it comes to the financial aspect of it.  But the first thing that needs done is to get rid of the childish partisan politics we currently are crippled by.  After that is done we can start to work on other problems.  But nothing will be accomplished untill that happens.


----------



## begreen

This makes me very sad and mad. This is not great again.


----------



## begreen

Ashful said:


> Sounds like the  pres is favoring using companies that manufacture in the US, versus one that moved their manufacturing to Mexico.  You think that’s a bad thing?
> 
> Here’s what happens when American manufacturers make critical product overseas:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How Decades of Offshoring Led to a Mask Shortage in a Pandemic
> 
> 
> US companies have shifted production overseas, especially to China. We got cheaper products. But now we can't make vital health care supplies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com


At a time of crises when doctors, nurses, emt, hospital staffs, etc. are putting their lives on the line, it is not the time to argue or worry about supply lines. That boat has already sailed. We should (and are) get them from any source that can manufacture in quantity quickly. The delays and backpedaling happening due to favoritism and the whims at the top are unconscionable. Seriously, he is trying to stop mass production of ventilators simply because he's pissed that GM didn't opt to make them at Lordstown, but instead chose a plant that has the clean room facilities to do it properly. That is morally wrong. To gaslight the country with false narratives is dangerous.  Fortunately, Ventec and GM have decided to risk it on their own without Fed orders and start making lots of ventilators. More and more it is the aware and proactive states that are saving lives. They will buy the ventilators without the Fed nod. What is happening at the Federal level is a clusterf*ck. It is costing lives.

Off-shoring and single-source, just-in-time supply lines for critical healthcare needs is just part of the problem. So is eliminating the stockpiling of them, especially when the administration was warned multiple times that this is exactly what would happen without pandemic preparation.

PS: Russia just sent 60 tons of medical supplies. I'd much rather have them coming from our neighbor to the south, but glad they helped.


----------



## Ashful

This isn’t an an issue over getting respirators made, they’re getting made either way, it’s only a question over which company is getting the limited federal money allocated for it.  The public opinion backlash against GM would be too severe for them to back out, now.


----------



## begreen

What backlash? They are doing this at cost.  They're not doing this for PR. They're doing it because it must be done. When the administration decided to contract others that will take much longer, GM and Ventec just powered ahead, without govt. guarantees. To me, they are heroes. It's only the petty, self-serving, smears from some at the top that are tainting public opinion.


----------



## Ashful

mcdougy said:


> Such as what? They said sorry chum, your insurance doesn't cover this?


Likely not covered in CNN tv:



			Redirect Notice
		





ABMax24 said:


> Unfortunately as a fellow Canadian I have to disagree with some of this. I probably know just as many people with botched diagnosis and treatments as those with proper care. Particularly in regard to cancer treatment, my younger brother at 21 lost his best friend to cancer that started with a lump on his elbow which was diagnosed as tennis elbow, it was only realized he had cancer once he developed chest pain from the cancer spreading to his lungs, at that point there wasn't much they could do. I also had a neighbor in his mid 60's with a similar ordeal, had cancer was treated and then diagnosed cancer free, he died a month later of cancer. My aunt was also diagnosed with leukemia last year and underwent treatment, she finally got to the point she had to walk in and demand tests and transfusions to keep her alive because the system seemed to loose interest in her case. She fortunately made a successful recovery.


There are lots of Canadian visitors to Philadelphia’s world-class cancer centers, every year.  I wonder why?



ABMax24 said:


> The cost is also not free for most cancer treatments, many of the specialty drugs required to treat it aren't covered by the government and in many cases cost $5k+ per month. My brother's best friend was this case, but they also had 4 other children to feed at that time, how does a family make choices like that? I also worked with a gentlemen whose wife fought cancer for 5 years before passing, same deal $4k per month for drugs, he spent his entire retirement savings on this.


This is something you never hear any discussion of, by those who assume everyone else is better off than the US. 



ABMax24 said:


> I definitely don't like the fact that the US system is un-affordable for many people, but the level of care is outstanding.


I don’t know from what small fraction of our population people get the impression that healthcare in the US is unaffordable.  It is accessible to every single citizen, it as simple as working hard and getting a job.  I have never accepted any job that didn’t come with health insurance, and that was the case even back when I was a student.  Those who lack insurance due to any factor other than their own poor choices is a very, very, very small fraction of our population.  I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, but there are people who like to find the exceptions, and hold them up as if they’re the average, here



woodnomore said:


> There are many Americans that can not afford insurance but they can afford a smart phone with internet access, new vehicles, and the latest fashions.


Exactly.  I have known several of these people.  They tend to have trouble showing up for work on a regular bases, and always claim to always have a successive string of uniquely cruel bosses. 



mcdougy said:


> WHO ranks Italy as no #2.  Canada  no #30
> USA no# 37


I think that pretty much invalidates their ratings, right there.  Anyone up for a trip to Italy, right now?


SpaceBus said:


> Perhaps med school shouldn't be so expensive. Poor people aren't stupid, they just can't afford to become doctors or nurses.


I grew up cash poor with a single mother.  We all paid our own way thru college, but that didn’t stop my younger brother from going to med school, which he financed thru a combination of merit-based scholarships and federal student loans.   I don’t see how anyone can claim cost as preventing them from becoming a doctor, when the federal loan programs and merit-based, need-based, and even obscure sports scholarships are available to those willing to apply themselves.


bholler said:


> But in the end the overall rating is higher.


WHO is doing the rating.  Get it? 


bholler said:


> That depends upon what insurance you have.  Yes you will get good care here but you may be bankrupt afterwards.  The ratings show the care you would get in much of the EU is as good if not better than here.


Italy, anyone?


----------



## kennyp2339

begreen said:


> They're doing it because it must be done


This is why the big 3 wont every fail in the US, and why GM back in 08' got bailed out, in time of war they are the asset that the US needs, you have plants that can be re-tooled almost overnight to produce goods that are essential. I agree with you, this is not about politics or he said, she said, this is about making life saving equipment and you worry about the bills later.


----------



## bholler

Ashful said:


> Likely not covered in CNN:
> 
> 
> 
> Redirect Notice
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are lots of Canadian visitors to Philadelphia’s world-class cancer centers, every year.  I wonder why?
> 
> 
> This is something you never hear any discussion of, by those who assume everyone else is better off than the US.
> 
> 
> I don’t know from what small fraction of our population people get the impression that healthcare in the US is unaffordable.  It is accessible to every single citizen, it as simple as working hard and getting a job.  I have never accepted any job that didn’t come with health insurance, and that was the case even back when I was a student.  Those who lack insurance due to any factor other than their own poor choices is a very, very, very small fraction of our population.  I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, but there are people who like to find the exceptions, and hold them up as if they’re the average, here
> 
> 
> Exactly.  I have known several of these people.  They tend to have trouble showing up for work on a regular bases, and always claim to always have a successive string of uniquely cruel bosses.
> 
> 
> I think that pretty much invalidates their ratings, right there.  Anyone up for a trip to Italy, right now?
> 
> I grew up cash poor with a single mother.  We all paid our own way thru college, but that didn’t stop my younger brother from going to med school, which he financed thru a combination of merit-based scholarships and federal student loans.
> 
> WHO is doing the rating.  Get it?
> 
> Italy, anyone?


I am sorry but if you think that good  healthcare is easily accessible to every American citizen you are completely out of touch with the reality of what is really going on.   Much of the employer healthplans are high deductible plans that don't cover many things yet still cost a relatively large percentage of the employees pay.  

My wife's last job which was a decent job for our area in the architecture dept of a grocery store had a top level healthplan for her employment level that cost about $120 a week and had a $2000 per person deductible with a family pay out cap of $195000.  And prescription vision and dental were all additional.   That type of plan is not uncommon at all.  And even after paying every week lots of families would be struggling to pay the out of pocket medical expenses.

Yes it's great if you are in a position to be able to take medical benifits into account when looking for a job.  But many people are happy just to get a job.


----------



## Ashful

bholler said:


> I am sorry but if you think that good  healthcare is easily accessible to every American citizen you are completely out of touch with the reality of what is really going on.   Much of the employer healthplans are high deductible plans that don't cover many things yet still cost a relatively large percentage of the employees pay.


Yes, my plan is a high deductible plan, as well.  I don’t see a problem with that, in fact it’s pushing health insurance back toward its original intent, and getting it away from managing each small action in our healthcare.  It’s there for catastrophic circumstances, when I need it.

I would like to see elimination of the caps, though.  Right now, we have to carry umbrella policies to cover that, and many people don’t.



bholler said:


> Yes it's great if you are in a position to be able to take medical benifits into account when looking for a job.  But many people are happy just to get a job.


I don’t know anyone with a good resume who has had any trouble finding a job, in the last four years.


----------



## bholler

Ashful said:


> Likely not covered in CNN tv:
> 
> 
> 
> Redirect Notice
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are lots of Canadian visitors to Philadelphia’s world-class cancer centers, every year.  I wonder why?
> 
> 
> This is something you never hear any discussion of, by those who assume everyone else is better off than the US.
> 
> 
> I don’t know from what small fraction of our population people get the impression that healthcare in the US is unaffordable.  It is accessible to every single citizen, it as simple as working hard and getting a job.  I have never accepted any job that didn’t come with health insurance, and that was the case even back when I was a student.  Those who lack insurance due to any factor other than their own poor choices is a very, very, very small fraction of our population.  I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, but there are people who like to find the exceptions, and hold them up as if they’re the average, here
> 
> 
> Exactly.  I have known several of these people.  They tend to have trouble showing up for work on a regular bases, and always claim to always have a successive string of uniquely cruel bosses.
> 
> 
> I think that pretty much invalidates their ratings, right there.  Anyone up for a trip to Italy, right now?
> 
> I grew up cash poor with a single mother.  We all paid our own way thru college, but that didn’t stop my younger brother from going to med school, which he financed thru a combination of merit-based scholarships and federal student loans.   I don’t see how anyone can claim cost as preventing them from becoming a doctor, when the federal loan programs and merit-based, need-based, and even obscure sports scholarships are available to those willing to apply themselves.
> 
> WHO is doing the rating.  Get it?
> 
> Italy, anyone?


You keep bringing up Italy.  And yes things are ugly there.  But do you honestly think similar things couldn't happen here if we don't keep the spread under control?


----------



## Ashful

bholler said:


> You keep bringing up Italy.  And yes things are ugly there.  But do you honestly think similar things couldn't happen here if we don't keep the spread under control?


I didn’t bring up Italy.  Rather, I was responding to a former post who cited Italy as rated 35 points better than the US on healthcare.   Only pointing out that those ratings many like to cite are flawed.


----------



## bholler

Ashful said:


> Yes, my plan is a high deductible plan, as well.  I don’t see a problem with that, in fact it’s pushing health insurance back toward its original intent, and getting it away from managing each small action in our healthcare.  It’s there for catastrophic circumstances, when I need it.
> 
> I would like to see elimination of the caps, though.  Right now, we have to carry umbrella policies to cover that, and many people don’t.
> 
> 
> I don’t know anyone with a good resume who has had any trouble finding a job, in the last four years.


Yes for you with your salary a high deductible plan is fine.  For many people that high deductible would take a long time to pay down.  And with a relatively low pay out cap a major illness or accident could easily bankrupt them.


Not everyone has a good resume.  Yes there are jobs available.  But many people are coming from jobs in manufacturing that had decent pay and benifits.  When those plants close they are left with not much choice in many areas.  Many end up in part time retail jobs just to have something coming in.  

When we recently posted a single job opening we had almost 300 applications.  Most with no experience other than working in a cabinet or modular home factory.   Most were completely un qualified.


----------



## Ashful

bholler said:


> Yes for you with your salary a high deductible plan is fine.  For many people that high deductible would take a long time to pay down.  And with a relatively low pay out cap a major illness or accident could easily bankrupt them.
> 
> 
> Not everyone has a good resume.  Yes there are jobs available.  But many people are coming from jobs in manufacturing that had decent pay and benifits.  When those plants close they are left with not much choice in many areas.  Many end up in part time retail jobs just to have something coming in.
> 
> When we recently posted a single job opening we had almost 300 applications.  Most with no experience other than working in a cabinet or modular home factory.   Most were completely un qualified.


These are all good points, bholler.  We aren’t seeing the same here, in fact I’m having trouble hiring for the skilled engineering and microelectronics positions we have open, there just aren’t many really good people looking to leave their current situation, right now.  But I won’t argue with you if you’re seeing the opposite.

I will argue with you on the good resume point, since there’s only ever one person you can blame for a lack of that, there are many ways (even free, even serving your country) to build a respectable resume.  It doesn’t have to mean an expensive college, for everyone.

Our argument there comes down to a difference in philosophy, and I don’t think either of us will ever change on that.  I say “anyone can do it,” and you say, “but not everyone can do it.”   Anyone versus everyone, a debate that was likely going before 1776, and I respect your opinion, even though my ethos points a different direction than yours.


----------



## AlbergSteve

And god forbid if you change jobs and now have a preexisting condition. That probably won't be covered with the new insurer. Best friend from the navy works in silicon valley as a hardware engineer and at the time was making $200k+ a year. He was on contract for a year or so when he had some serious lower GI issues that almost killed him but he wouldn't go the doctor beacause his old company was going to hire him back, and he didn't want to have a preexisting medical condition with the insurer. That's F%^ked  up.


----------



## Ashful

AlbergSteve said:


> And god forbid if you change jobs and now have a preexisting condition. That probably won't be covered with the new insurer.


what on earth are you talking about, Steve?!?  That hasn’t been an issue for more than a decade.  






						Pre-existing condition - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org
				




To add to my prior reply to bholler, I don’t disagree with him or begreen, in their position that we need a system that can care for all, in some basic level.  My primary issue is their apparent assumption that our government is capable of being the mechanism for driving or maintaining it.


----------



## bholler

Ashful said:


> what on earth are you talking about, Steve?!?  That hasn’t been an issue for more than a decade.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pre-existing condition - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.m.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To add to my prior reply to bholler, I don’t disagree with him or begreen, in their position that we need a system that can care for all, in some basic level.  My primary issue is their apparent assumption that our government is capable of being the mechanism for driving or maintaining it.


Well yes and no.  They cannot refuse you coverage because of a pre-existing condition.  But they can only offer you certain plans and can price it out of your reach.  I for example have malignant hyperthermia in my family.  There is a test to determine if I actually have it but I have been told by multiple insurance reps and doctor that if I have the test and come back positive I will never be able to afford insurance.  So instead I just assume I have it which adds significantcost to every procedure I have that requires any sort of anesthesia.

I completely agree our govt in the state it has been in for a couple decades now probably couldn't do it.  But it honestly can't do much of anything.   That needs fixed before anything else can improve


----------



## begreen

Ashful said:


> what on earth are you talking about, Steve?!? That hasn’t been an issue for more than a decade.



Yes, thanks to Obamacare. Unfortunately the poor people in the 14 states without ACA Medicaid expansion are SOL. I think it's 27 million uninsured at present.


----------



## SpaceBus

@Ashful colleges were far cheaper and one could work through school. Unless you want to stop at a community College folks can't really work through school anymore. There are a finite number of scholarships and grants. Quite frankly the only way to make it work is student loans.


----------



## SpaceBus

Ashful said:


> what on earth are you talking about, Steve?!?  That hasn’t been an issue for more than a decade.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pre-existing condition - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.m.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To add to my prior reply to bholler, I don’t disagree with him or begreen, in their position that we need a system that can care for all, in some basic level.  My primary issue is their apparent assumption that our government is capable of being the mechanism for driving or maintaining it.


Yeah, and heroin is also illegal, yet you find it in every city.


----------



## begreen

A little research shows that the non-ACA Medicaid states are also coming up with some grim statistics, especially in the poorer south. One out of 10 coronavirus deaths in the US is in the southern states now and a disproportionate amount is under 70. A Kaiser Foundation analysis notes that all adults under 60 who have heart disease, lung issues, cancer, diabetes or are overweight are at higher risk. According to an Atlantic article, "In Arkansas, Alabama, Kentucky, Tennessee, Louisiana, and Mississippi, relatively young people make up more than a quarter of the vulnerable population. Compare that with the coronavirus’s beachhead in Washington State, where younger adults make up only about 19 percent of the risk group." Many of these states have weaker public health programs and spend less than a third of what New York spends on them. Add the slow response of their governors and you have a recipe for a serious health crisis. Social distancing is going to be critical for these people.


----------



## mcdougy

As COVID-19 crisis deepens, out-of-state patients seek help at Philadelphia hospitals
					

Patients who are very ill with the coronavirus infection can quickly take a turn for the worse, making long journeys dangerous, medical experts say. Still, hospitals are required to care for all patients seeking treatment.




					www.inquirer.com
				



.
@Ashful, I sure hope the WHO ratings are wrong.  This doesn't look good, similar to what has happened elsewhere....Flags won't save anyone at this point


----------



## Medic21

mcdougy said:


> As COVID-19 crisis deepens, out-of-state patients seek help at Philadelphia hospitals
> 
> 
> Patients who are very ill with the coronavirus infection can quickly take a turn for the worse, making long journeys dangerous, medical experts say. Still, hospitals are required to care for all patients seeking treatment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.inquirer.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> @Ashful, I sure hope the WHO ratings are wrong.  This doesn't look good, similar to what has happened elsewhere....Flags won't save anyone at this point


One thing people are not contemplating with the current “testing” and the reason so many are so sick and dying.  No one is, still for the most part, being tested until they are deathly sick.  

this is Indianapolis Indiana. 1 million people and only 3/4 of 1% of the population has been tested.


----------



## SpaceBus

Medic21 said:


> One thing people are not contemplating with the current “testing” and the reason so many are so sick and dying.  No one is, still for the most part, being tested until they are deathly sick.
> 
> this is Indianapolis Indiana. 1 million people and only 3/4 of 1% of the population has been tested.


Are you not seeing how many people are dying in NYC?


----------



## Medic21

SpaceBus said:


> Are you not seeing how many people are dying in NYC?


Watching that from 500 miles away.  There is a reason I live in a rural area.  This is what happens when travel is unrestricted and people don’t listen and follow recommendations until it’s too late.  Top that off with I have no clue about the actual facts of anything going on there.  

the point of my post is they are not testing enough to have any concrete numbers on anything.  Everywhere is seeing deaths from this.  I have given my opinion that this will be bad in populated areas Of the country.  If every case in the US was in New York only 1.5% of the population of the state of New York would be infected by current testing.  Some of y’all are acting like we’ve reached this point of no return towards extinction.


----------



## SpaceBus

Medic21 said:


> Watching that from 500 miles away.  There is a reason I live in a rural area.  This is what happens when travel is unrestricted and people don’t listen and follow recommendations until it’s too late.  Top that off with I have no clue about the actual facts of anything going on there.
> 
> the point of my post is they are not testing enough to have any concrete numbers on anything.  Everywhere is seeing deaths from this.  I have given my opinion that this will be bad in populated areas Of the country.  If every case in the US was in New York only 1.5% of the population of the state of New York would be infected by current testing.  Some of y’all are acting like we’ve reached this point of no return towards extinction.


No, I'm saying that more people will die from this virus than US Soldiers that died in Vietnam. NYC is simply a preview of what your town or county will be like, especially if folks don't stay they asses inside.


----------



## Medic21

SpaceBus said:


> No, I'm saying that more people will die from this virus than US Soldiers that died in Vietnam. NYC is simply a preview of what your town or county will be like, especially if folks don't stay they asses inside.


I live in a rural area.  We have 3 cases out of 67,000 people in the county.  I highly doubt we will se anything on the magnitude of New York.  Where the population density is over 100 times greater.  

You do realize more people die yearly from the flu than the Vietnam War?  Been that way for well over a decade.


----------



## Medic21

Let me correct that.  Over 27000 times greater population density.  Ours is less than 1 per sq mile.


----------



## SpaceBus

Medic21 said:


> I live in a rural area.  We have 3 cases out of 67,000 people in the county.  I highly doubt we will se anything on the magnitude of New York.  Where the population density is over 100 times greater.
> 
> You do realize more people die yearly from the flu than the Vietnam War?  Been that way for well over a decade.


You only have 3 cases because there is no testing in rural areas. My county only has 1 case, but there are also a very limited number of tests here in one of the least populous places in the country. And no, the flu does not kill 60,000 Americans every year. This disease is killing thousands of people every day, on top of all of the flu and other deaths Americans already deal with. Please, stop acting like this is no big deal.


----------



## bholler

Medic21 said:


> Let me correct that.  Over 27000 times greater population density.  Ours is less than 1 per sq mile.


And our county with a very similar population density currently has 30 cases.     And I gaurantee that will go up for a while.  Today 2 of our rural mail carriers tested positive one stating to show symptoms.


----------



## Medic21

SpaceBus said:


> You only have 3 cases because there is no testing in rural areas. My county only has 1 case, but there are also a very limited number of tests here in one of the least populous places in the country. And no, the flu does not kill 60,000 Americans every year. This disease is killing thousands of people every day, on top of all of the flu and other deaths Americans already deal with. Please, stop acting like this is no big deal.


Actually they have tested a higher percentage of the population than they have tested in New York based on CDC numbers.

I do not think this is as big a deal as it has been portrayed to be. That doesn’t mean I don’t respect it as a medical professional.  I’ve had multiple massive strokes, did a surgical airway on a head trauma pt and treated and transported a STEMI in the last three shifts.  Two of those pts died and our jobs go on.


----------



## Medic21

bholler said:


> And our county with a very similar population density currently has 30 cases.     And I gaurantee that will go up for a while.  Today 2 of our rural mail carriers tested positive one stating to show symptoms.


Where at in Pennsylvania?  According to census data the highest density is 2900 per sq/mi.  NYC is 27.000.  Nowhere close.


----------



## bholler

Medic21 said:


> Where at in Pennsylvania?  According to census data the highest density is 2900 per sq/mi.  NYC is 27.000.  Nowhere close.


The same density as your area not NYC.  I am making the point that rural areas are still at risk.


----------



## SpaceBus

bholler said:


> The same density as your area not NYC.  I am making the point that rural areas are still at risk.


Dr. Fouci has straight up said that same thing. Assume it is everywhere and deadly, because it is. If you see death regularly than it will be easier to be blase about this, but it is very serious.


----------



## Medic21

SpaceBus said:


> Dr. Fouci has straight up said that same thing. Assume it is everywhere and deadly, because it is. If you see death regularly than it will be easier to be blase about this, but it is very serious.


There is another name that drives me nuts.  Dr. Fauci has spent an entire career on AIDS research and all of a sudden he’s the go to expert?

he’s a classic example of plot IVs mixing into this.


----------



## mcdougy

When has the flu ever packed hospitals to the brim in a matter of weeks world wide?  Comparing C-19 to the flu is not apples to apples. 
Society has not taken these type of measures in a long time, if we don't, the countryside small towns are not immune to the virus. "We are all in this together" what part are people not understanding?


----------



## SpaceBus

Medic21 said:


> There is another name that drives me nuts.  Dr. Fucky has spent an entire career on AIDS research and all of a sudden he’s the go to expert?
> 
> he’s a classic example of plot IVs mixing into this.



Literally nobody is the expert on this virus, it's novel! He knows way more about viruses than you or I, and so far seems to be leading the research into this particular coronavirus here in the US.


----------



## SpaceBus

mcdougy said:


> When has the flu ever packed hospitals to the brim in a matter of weeks world wide?  Comparing C-19 to the flu is not apples to apples.
> Society has not taken these type of measures in a long time, if we don't, the countryside small towns are not immune to the virus. "We are all in this together" what part are people not understanding?


You are spot on. The small rural towns will be devastated if we don't all stay indoors. My county is just under 13 persons per square mile, which sounds like everyone is super spread out, but every single person in this county goes to the same grocery store, gas stations, feed stores, etc. Once one person gets it, almost everyone will get it. We might not leave our house until May.


----------



## bholler

Medic21 said:


> There is another name that drives me nuts.  Dr. Fauci has spent an entire career on AIDS research and all of a sudden he’s the go to expert?
> 
> he’s a classic example of plot IVs mixing into this.


You do realize he has been the head of the national institute of allergy and infections disease since 1984 right?  What he is saying is not just his views.  He is the director of a large organization full of many of the leading researchers in the country.


----------



## Medic21

mcdougy said:


> When has the flu ever packed hospitals to the brim in a matter of weeks world wide?  Comparing C-19 to the flu is not apples to apples.
> Society has not taken these type of measures in a long time, if we don't, the countryside small towns are not immune to the virus. "We are all in this together" what part are people not understanding?


ALL. THE.  TIME.   

Those of us that work in healthcare n attest hospitals this time of the year are full of flu pts.  Not to mention there have been, according to the Indiana State Department of Health, 26 major flu outbreaks within nursing homes this year.


----------



## Medic21

bholler said:


> You do realize he has been the head of the national institute of allergy and infections disease since 1984 right?  What he is saying is not just his views.  He is the director of a large organization full of many of the leading researchers in the country.


And he is an expert on AIDS.  politics.  There are a lot of Infectious disease specialists that I have talked to that do not agree with him and his numbers.


----------



## SpaceBus

Medic21 said:


> And he is an expert on AIDS.  politics.  There are a lot of Infectious disease specialists that I have talked to that do not agree with him and his numbers.


Again, NYC has never had to open up morgue trailers for the dead from the flu. You can lead a horse to water, but it will just get coronavirus anyway.


----------



## bholler

Medic21 said:


> ALL. THE.  TIME.
> 
> Those of us that work in healthcare n attest hospitals this time of the year are full of flu pts.  Not to mention there have been, according to the Indiana State Department of Health, 26 major flu outbreaks within nursing homes this year.


Nonsense.  Are you saying we deploy military hospitals every year to handle the load.  How often is the national guard deployed to help with a flu outbreak?


----------



## bholler

Medic21 said:


> And he is an expert on AIDS.  politics.  There are a lot of Infectious disease specialists that I have talked to that do not agree with him and his numbers.


They are not his numbers.  They are the NIH numbers.   Just because he doesn't blindly agree with the nonsense coming from the top doesn't mean he is playing politics.  It means he is doing his job.


----------



## Medic21

bholler said:


> Nonsense.  Are you saying we deploy military hospitals every year to handle the load.  How often is the national guard deployed to help with a flue outbreak?


No, but the hospitals are put to capacity every year from the flu.  Just like right now the flu had them at capacity before this.  That’s a big part of the strain.  They were full before this.


----------



## mcdougy

Bahahahaha some people's kids


----------



## Medic21

mcdougy said:


> Bahahahaha some people's kids


What can I say I pay attention to everything in healthcare since my job revolves around it.


----------



## bholler

Medic21 said:


> What can I say I pay attention to everything in healthcare since my job revolves around it.


Yet you dismiss the guidance from the leading medical researchers.


----------



## Medic21

bholler said:


> Yet you dismiss the guidance from the leading medical researchers.


Where have you seen it have I said I’m dismissing guidance.  Anyone else here dealing with patients in a daily basis.  We just worked a cardiac arrest on a pt that is probable, we took every precaution since test results won’t be back till monday.  

sorry for the delay, had to go take care of a 5 y/o not breathing.  Our lives go on, many many more pts that are not COVID-19 then those even possible.


----------



## SpaceBus

Medic21 said:


> Where have you seen it have I said I’m dismissing guidance.  Anyone else here dealing with patients in a daily basis.  We just worked a cardiac arrest on a pt that is probable, we took every precaution since test results won’t be back till monday.
> 
> sorry for the delay, had to go take care of a 5 y/o not breathing.  Our lives go on, many many more pts that are not COVID-19 then those even possible.


The whole issue is that the healthcare system can't handle hundreds of thousands of covid 19 patients on top of the normal load of patients. A lot more people will die as a result. If there were no other healthcare issues facing the nation it wouldn't be as much of an issue, but that's just not the case.


----------



## Medic21

SpaceBus said:


> The whole issue is that the healthcare system can't handle hundreds of thousands of covid 19 patients on top of the normal load of patients. A lot more people will die as a result. If there were no other healthcare issues facing the nation it wouldn't be as much of an issue, but that's just not the case.


And that brings up another issue of our healthcare system.  I’ve said it for years how much is too much on a normal day let alone now.  We constantly spend time and resources on a daily basis on patients that have zero chance.  What I’m seeing is a trend back to what it was 15-20 years ago where we faced the hard truths of healthcare that we won’t save everyone and we didn’t try to.   A huge burden on our system has been stringing on lives of people on life support or the such that shouldn’t be.  You may think I’m cold hearted but, if anyone does to me what we are forced to do for 99% of our elderly and nursing home pts I’ll come back and haunt the ever living chit out of you. 

This is a perfect time to re-evaluate this stuff.  i had a cardiac arrest pt awhile back that was terminal, stopped treatments, cancer in a nursing home.  No dnr so we worked and got pulses.  they were on a ventilator for 10 days with terminal cancer and brain dead.  Why???  We’ve needed something for a long time for us to evaluate our decisions in healthcare.  We are not God and we need to quit trying to trump him.


----------



## bholler

Medic21 said:


> Where have you seen it have I said I’m dismissing guidance.  Anyone else here dealing with patients in a daily basis.  We just worked a cardiac arrest on a pt that is probable, we took every precaution since test results won’t be back till monday.
> 
> sorry for the delay, had to go take care of a 5 y/o not breathing.  Our lives go on, many many more pts that are not COVID-19 then those even possible.


Right here.




Medic21 said:


> There is another name that drives me nuts.  Dr. Fauci has spent an entire career on AIDS research and all of a sudden he’s the go to expert?
> 
> he’s a classic example of plot IVs mixing into this.


----------



## mcdougy

Denialism is dangerous.......is climate change real in rural Indiana? Better yet, what shape is the earth?


----------



## Medic21

bholler said:


> Right here.


Where does it say I’ve dismissed the CDCs guidance?  The gloves, masks, N95 mask, gown, etc, that I wear on every call would seriously dispute that.  The fact that I sent my kid to live with my sister would seriously dispute that.  The fact I just spent then last hour disinfecting my ambulance and quarters would dispute that.  

Just because I choose to not care about what a guy says, one that’s appointed to a position that’s controlled by politics, or care what a president has to say about this, or thinks that this will end up being the biggest farce ever perpetuated by the media does not mean I don’t respect this disease.

There are many more we come in contact with that worry me more than this.  Some, the majority, of you guys will never understand that.  Top that off with multiple combat tours as a medic and I really could care less about how “dangerous” this is being portrayed as.  Even if this kills the 200,000 some think it may in this country that’s .0006% of the total population in this country. 606,000 are projected to die from cancer alone this years.  3 times the amount.  How many trillions has the government assigned to that.  Or is it non contagious so we don’t care?  150,000 annually die from trauma each year.  Around 640,000 die from heart disease a year in the US.  

Live your life and quit worrying about a damn virus.  People like You and the government is forcing our country into a very bad place driven by fear.  Especially when you have an equal chance of dying from a traumatic injury, last guy I had just fell a step ladder, and 6x a chance of heart problems or cancer.


----------



## Medic21

mcdougy said:


> Denialism is dangerous.......is climate change real in rural Indiana? Better yet, what shape is the earth?


It’s called the reality of the world I see everyday.  You talked about people dying for a couple months.  I’ve lived it for 25 years now.


----------



## bholler

Medic21 said:


> Where does it say I’ve dismissed the CDCs guidance?  The gloves, masks, N95 mask, gown, etc, that I wear on every call would seriously dispute that.  The fact that I sent my kid to live with my sister would seriously dispute that.  The fact I just spent then last hour disinfecting my ambulance and quarters would dispute that.
> 
> Just because I choose to not care about what a guy says, one that’s appointed to a position that’s controlled by politics, or care what a president has to say about this, or thinks that this will end up being the biggest farce ever perpetuated by the media does not mean I don’t respect this disease.
> 
> There are many more we come in contact with that worry me more than this.  Some, the majority, of you guys will never understand that.  Top that off with multiple combat tours as a medic and I really could care less about how “dangerous” this is being portrayed as.  Even if this kills the 200,000 some think it may in this country that’s .0006% of the total population in this country. 606,000 are projected to die from cancer alone this years.  3 times the amount.  How many trillions has the government assigned to that.  Or is it non contagious so we don’t care?  150,000 annually die from trauma each year.  Around 640,000 die from heart disease a year in the US.
> 
> Live your life and quit worrying about a damn virus.  People like You and the government is forcing our country into a very bad place driven by fear.  Especially when you have an equal chance of dying from a traumatic injury, last guy I had just fell a step ladder, and 6x a chance of heart problems or cancer.


Ok so you follow the guidelines but what you are saying here largely disimisses them.  I am not living in fear at all but I am being cautious.  I am still going to the store I am still doing emergency calls.  But I take precautions to minimize my risk and the risk of people I come in contact with.


----------



## Medic21

bholler said:


> Ok so you follow the guidelines but what you are saying here largely disimisses them.  I am not living in fear at all but I am being cautious.  I am still going to the store I am still doing emergency calls.  But I take precautions to minimize my risk and the risk of people I come in contact with.


No I’m saying this is being blown way out of proportion.  Everyone is focusing on how many wil possible die and its drop in the bucket to what goes on everyday in this country.  

Maybe I just accepted the fact that I’ll die and made peace with that a long time ago.


----------



## AlbergSteve

Ease up guys, he doesn't want to hear from civilians.


----------



## mcdougy

So if this is just another day to you essentially, why did you choose to move your child out of the home?


----------



## Medic21

mcdougy said:


> So if this is just another day to you essentially, why did you choose to move your child out of the home?


Because he has asthma which puts him in the high risk category.


----------



## mcdougy

Well that's great you take it serious for your kids. Surprised that you are, considering most of the comments you are saying about the virus in general.


----------



## Medic21

mcdougy said:


> Well that's great you take it serious for your kids. Surprised that you are, considering most of the comments you are saying about the virus in general.


You mean like it should be respected.  I’ve said that many times.  I’m saying quit focusing on the deaths from it.  It’s like comparing apples to oranges with how many people die from other things.  I’m also saying that the population density of an area plays a huge role into how. It will be.  I’m looking at the big picture from it and also know 1 in 4 will never even know they had it and if your not elderly or high risk you really don’t have much to worry about.


----------



## Medic21

AlbergSteve said:


> Ease up guys, he doesn't want to hear from civilians.


It’s not that at all.  See above, I’m tired of hearing about how many people will die.  I just ran another cardiac arrest that was not covid-19 but a probable PE.  So this week it’s been natural causes or Trauma 5 - covid-19 .5(waiting on a test result but not likely).  The number of people that die daily from other reasons is ten fold what covid-19 is and all people focus on is that.


----------



## mcdougy

Again I don't get that thinking....'"respect a virus " I am assuming your saying that for the risk of death. Then your saying "don't focus on death"  
"1 in 4 won't know they have it"  as in it's no big deal for the other 3. 
"If your not elderly or high risk it's  not much to worry about" Well, there is a huge portion of the world that is elderly and high risk.
I don't think there are many people saying the world is over, but you/we all should respect that the world is very different currently. Millions of people are out of work, millions of people are worried how they may pay their bills, millions of people have seen their life savings be reduced significantly, AND ALL OF US HAVE AN ELDERLY OR HIGH RISK PERSON in our lives. 
Personally I am like you,  I feel that my own self is HOPEFULLY not at risk, but I have many loved ones that are. I hope people actually aren't like me as I have had 3 family members have a fight with this stuff already. An aunt (70) who more than likely picked it up at the funeral home she works at (recovering well but was damn sick), My dad (74) who is still possibly "looking down the barrel" as he was exposed to confirmed case at his LTC facility on Monday (still unfolding) and my brother (49) who had to take an ambulance ride from work because he passed out at work, me and his family knowing he had what we were all hoping was a "cold"  (turns out he simply fainted at work)  bit try explaining that to his 12 yr old hysterical  son who was asking "is my dad going to die" when my  SIL called me over.  Let alone living with and supporting my ICU nurse wife, who is relentlessly hearing there's not enough PPE.  
All I'm seeing folks on this chat in general saying in general is " holy chit, this stuff is serious"  and it's completely warranted for all the reasons stated, not just death. No one on this PLANET is not effected. 
So you must realize that you being a medic, and telling us to relax this is less than the flu won't fly. It's WAY BIGGER than the flu. 
Currently most are privy to only one line of defence for the death aspect. ISOLATE.  and unfortunately many people feel that EVERYONE needs to do it. 
The thought and hope that the hospital will take care of us is faded exponentially, staff doesn't even sound protected. Then throw in the politics and confidence takes another chit kicking.  
Unfortunately all of this adds up to the fact that it's kinda/really f'd up right now and the word needs to be spread as much as possible..... ISOLATE. because personally I enjoyed my life a heck of a lot better 2 months ago when I didn't/wasn't worrying about all of these "NEW" things. Reading fellas argue about which woodstove is better was alot easier than this non flu like chit.


----------



## Medic21

Interesting read from an immunologist.  There is more than one way of looking at this. I agree with him.  I may be wrong but, the current trends are not doing anything other than making people go insane and tanking our country close to the point of collapse.









						Coronavirus COVID-19: Public Health Apocalypse or Panic and Anti-American?
					

The media reporting and governmental response to this viral outbreak is unprecedented. But what is more concerning than the virus itself is our American collective response to it. It is no less than tragic.




					aapsonline.org


----------



## SpaceBus

Uhhhh, the current trends are terrifying. I get that a lot of people die of preventable death every year, but this is out of control. It's the most contagious virus I've seen in my life. Most of the media coverage saying the virus is not a big deal are also Russian propaganda. If you trace it far enough back to the source it always turns out to be bogus. Same with many of the stories on therapeutics. That's the other terrifying part of this, no real treatments. Currently the best advice is to let the fever run and get in hot water. 

At least if I stay home for the next two months I won't die. The army destroyed my immune system somehow, so I have to live in fear of this. Those three out of four patients that don't have symptoms could kill me.


----------



## JRHAWK9

SpaceBus said:


> Those three out of four patients that don't have symptoms could kill me.



This, this right here is what it's all about for me.  Unfortunately there are a lot of selfish people in the world.


----------



## begreen

The lack of testing is a national tragedy. The early decision to not accept WHO test kits and go it on our own has been a costly one.


Medic21 said:


> Interesting read from an immunologist.  There is more than one way of looking at this. I agree with him.  I may be wrong but, the current trends are not doing anything other than making people go insane and tanking our country close to the point of collapse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coronavirus COVID-19: Public Health Apocalypse or Panic and Anti-American?
> 
> 
> The media reporting and governmental response to this viral outbreak is unprecedented. But what is more concerning than the virus itself is our American collective response to it. It is no less than tragic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aapsonline.org


This is not just HHS or CDC guidance, it is World guidance. Those nations (and states) that have delayed or ignored responding appropriately to the threat of this novel virus are paying a high cost. Trivializing, ignoring and calling this threat a hoax has cost many lives. As the disease spreads southward, Brazil is starting to find this out, just like we have.








						Brazil coronavirus: medics fear official tally ignores ‘a mountain of deaths’
					

Lack of testing and failure to report on cases means scale of outbreak could be far greater than thought, doctors warn




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Medic21

begreen said:


> The lack of testing is a national tragedy. The early decision to not accept WHO test kits and go it on our own has been a costly one.
> 
> This is not just HHS or CDC guidance, it is World guidance. Those nations (and states) that have delayed or ignored responding appropriately to the threat of this novel virus are paying a high cost. Trivializing, ignoring and calling this threat a hoax has cost many lives. Brazil is starting to find this out, just like we have.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brazil coronavirus: medics fear official tally ignores ‘a mountain of deaths’
> 
> 
> Lack of testing and failure to report on cases means scale of outbreak could be far greater than thought, doctors warn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com


This is the opinion of an immunologist who has a whole lot more schooling and experience than any of us.  That alone gives credence to what his opinion is more so than any of us.


----------



## begreen

Medic21 said:


> This is the opinion of an immunologist who has a whole lot more schooling and experience than any of us.  That alone gives credence to what his opinion is more so than any of us.


True. And it is just as easy to find epidemiologists that refute his hypothesis. The immunologist appears to have a very strong religious bent which may have a notable effect on his position. FWIW, I have a close friend that is an immune disease research doctor and he too disagrees.

PS: looks like Dr. Dubravec is an allergist, not a well-known immunologist or policy expert.


----------



## bholler

Medic21 said:


> This is the opinion of an immunologist who has a whole lot more schooling and experience than any of us.  That alone gives credence to what his opinion is more so than any of us.


Yes I have no doubt he knows much more than us.  But does he know more than the collective mind of all of those working under Fauci?   Or any of the other groups working across the globe who agree with our course of action?


----------



## begreen

A quick read shows serious flaws in his logic,

_ The President’s COVID-19 Taskforce estimated that as many as 1/1000 New Yorkers may have the virus.  If this were projected to the entire United States (population 328,239,523), then the total number of COVID-19 would be approximately 328,239 and deaths from COVID-19 (1.8% death rate) at *5,909*.  Even if this ends up being wrong by 1,000 percent, the death rate would still be 59,000, i.e., within range of the estimates for influenza deaths.  You can look at it in another way.  98% of people who get COVID-19 fully recover!_

Dude- the current case number is already at 327,848 and doubling every few days. Also, it is estimated with the stay at home policy in effect that 95% of the population will not get infected. His numbers fall apart under this assumption. Of the 327,848 cases, there were 9,325 deaths or 2.84% so far and this disease is just warming up in many parts of the country.

_ Another important point:  due to a lack of testing kits (which should be resolved in the next few weeks), the total number of those who have contracted COVID-19 is much higher, as most COVID-19 infections are mild or not even felt by patients. Our ability to learn from Italy (and maybe from China) has allowed us to develop treatment strategies that weren’t even considered just 6 weeks ago.  These findings should make our death rate lower than other parts of the world._

I certainly hope so, but the most optimistic estimates for a vaccine are a year or more out.  Even intermediate treatments need time-consuming trials. Don't expect any miracles in the next month or two as cases peak. Same thing for the promised tests. They are not there. What we have is too little, too late. Hopefully by fall we will have stockpiled kits and setting up many more testing labs with robots for mass testing.

_Italy has more reliable data but we can’t say we are going the way of Italy.  Their healthcare system is third world medicine with good pasta, red wine, and gelato._

This is not a scientist talking, this is opinionated BS. Several states in the US will likely see conditions like Italy. The south, in particular, is likely to see high numbers similar to Italy. They are poorly equipped to deal with the pandemic, their under 60 population is generally in poorer health,  and it will be the poor most affected.

The herd immunity argument is weak because this is a novel virus. That is, no one is immune as of a couple months ago. We would need at least 60% of the population to be immune for herd immunity to work. Right now everyone is susceptible to this disease. And it's made worse by a lack of an effective vaccine. Even if we develop a new vaccine it's unknown how long it would be effective.

State control and abuse of power? Yes, I agree with this concern. It started happening right away with secrecy imposed at the top level.


----------



## begreen

This is long, but inciteful look at what it is like to deal with this novel virus. It was shared on Facebook by a father who was infected by his young son, one of the "herd".

*Morgan C. Smith*

I am not normally one to post on Facebook, but I figured this was a good exception since I have gone through the process of Covid -19 onset of viral pneumonia, the symptoms and into recovery. That makes me a really lucky and unlucky person at the same time.
I thought I’d share since there is little information out there on this development of this illness in the more severe cases. Most stories in the media focus on two true facts: 80% of cases are mild and those that die tend to be older with health problems like degraded lungs, diabetes or other issues.  All certainly true.  But if you look at the opposite side of that 80%, those remaining 20% with “not mild” cases occur pretty evenly across most all age groups from teenagers to advanced ages. Luckily kids seems much less likely to get anything more than a mild case.  So by those odds, with a family of 5 very healthy people all above the age of 15, on average, one of those people will have a “not mild case”.  Sheltering at home is the way we can slow the progression, but the progression will continue until there is a vaccine or everyone has been exposed.
I’m not sharing this for sympathy since I’ve already received lots of that, but just to give a heads up on this topic that is front and center is our country and thought people might find it useful.
First, what is a mild case.  I know this since basically everyone else in my family had that.  We are quite sure we were exposed when we went up to Boulder, CO on March 14 to pick up my son where he is a Freshman at CU.  There were a number of confirmed Covid 19 cases on campus when CU closed it down, including at least one person who worked at the main food service area where Kyle ate at regularly.  While driving him home to Telluride (Highway 70 across the continental divide in March and about 30 degrees outside) he was asking us to turn on the air-conditioning because it has hot, which made no sense. He slept most the way home but had a small cough that lasted a few days and resolved.  He likely had a small fever while in the car and then had a cough that lasted a few days.  Basically that the extent of all his symptoms but it was all that was necessary to transmit it to others.  Later that week after he was home in Telluride, both Sarah and my daughter also developed low level fevers (either below 100 or barely above 100) with slight headaches.  My daughter’s symptoms continued for awhile longer with some light fatigue.  In short, that was the total extent of all the symptoms for those lucky 80% who have “mild symptoms”.  Although the key to remember about all those people with “Mild” symptoms is that they are infectious likely before they show any symptoms, and during the time they have little to no real symptoms.  This is why this spreads so easily and so hard to stop. Since Telluride was an early city to require everyone to stay at home, we did that and luckily likely did not infect others.
So what’s it like for the other 20%?  Obviously, not so good. This is my story.
6 Days post exposure: I started with showing signs of tremendous fatigue.  I woke up, had breakfast and promptly fell back asleep for three hours, had lunch then fell asleep for three hours and pretty much went to sleep after that for the night. I also developed a similar cough to what Kyle had but I never had a fever.
Days 7-12 post exposure: Really pretty mild symptoms during this whole time, but I kept up pretty full activities.  Since I work from home with the rest of my staff in Oakland and Sacramento I was mostly dealing with business issues but still got outside a lot. I probably had some shortness of breath, but it’s hard to tell with living at 9000 feet. I started developing aches on my body that were unusual mostly around the back and arms and my skin started becoming sensitive to the touch by the end of this time, but all really seemed mild.  I should add that none of us got tested because we knew it was impossible to do so unless you were in the hospital with severe symptoms so that was not available.
Days 13-14 from exposure:  I was trying hard to get our paddock ready for bringing our horses back home to altitude and building a chicken coop and definitely felt like I overdid it and was exhausted beyond reason from the activity I actually did.  I started sleeping as a full-time job (pretty much not getting our of bed for anything, and was taking the maximum dose of Tylenol that I could daily to control the painful body aches). This was Thu 3/26 - Sat 3/28.  I called the doctor and they had me hold my breath for ten seconds, which I could do without issue, and with my breathing sounding ok, they said I was probably fine to stay at home but I could add Ibuprofen to the Tylenol by alternating between them.  So during this time, I was in bed all day and taking the maximum dose of both Tylenol and Ibuprofen to try to control the aches and pains on my back and arms that felt similar to having shingles.  At the start of this period I started to develop a mild fever (like 100) that would come and go. I also had a cough.
Day 15 from exposure (late in day Sat 3/28): This is the day/night all hell broke loose.  I really could no longer get out of bed and was unable to do any activity.  I was telling myself that my body was doing what it needed to do to get better so that it’s all good.  The rest was allowing my body to make the antibodies necessary to fight what I assumed was Covid 19 and so I just had to let it do its thing.  I called the doctor again that day and still could hold by breath without coughing for like 10+ seconds and did not have chest pain at all, but told them I literally could not get out of bed.  I decided to still stay to let my body heal and sleep more.  About midnight  Sarah woke me up saying that I was rapidly breathing and sounded bad and I should go to the hospital. We took my temperature and it had shot up to 103. Being exhausted, I did not want to and wanted to go back to sleep but she made me because I did not look good. As I tried to get ready, I noticed I had lost coordination and balance and could barely get dressed and just moving was causing difficultly breathing.
So I arrived at the Telluride Medical Center a little after 1 a.m., which is not really a hospital but they have very good imaging equipment available because of all the serious ski injuries and they do have a 24 hour emergency room.  The hooked me to the machine and turns out my oxygen saturation level was at 74% (normal at sea level is 99% and about 95% average at this altitude).  With this lack of oxygen and fever of 103 I was likely incapable of making my own decisions so thank God Sarah forced by butt out of bed at that time.  I was given oxygen and that was able to get my levels back to normal as long as I have a continuous supply. They tested me for the virus but said it could still take a week for the result.  They also tested for regular flu and that came back negative. They recommended a CT Scan of the chest to check for pneumonia (since they do have really nice imagining equipment!). My result showed the classic sign of the COVID 19 pneumonia pattern in both lungs, which is patchy spots all over the lungs bilaterally. With this the radiologist could unequivocally state I had Covid 19 virus. The pneumonia was shutting down my oxygen intake, even though I had no chest pain and could still hold my breath for 10 + second without any issue.
This point is a really big deal since a number of ER doctors have commented on how unusual this virus is from normal bacterial pneumonia.  With normal pneumonia you get lots of symptoms of pain that precede the spread and typically you can hear it easily with a stethoscope.  With Covid 19 you can have massive spread of the pneumonia with little breathing symptoms until it hits like a ton of bricks and might be too late to do anything about it.  This is why you see some really healthy people dropping dead from this disease even without any underlying medical conditions.
Another ER doctor friend of mine said on that low level of oxygen people are presenting with at the ER as I did with a 75% level: “Weird thing about this virus is that people show up in ER's with oxygen saturation of 70% or 75%, which would normally make you extremely short of breath, but [people] are not feeling it.  Very weird. Sneaky. Normally if you dropped your O2 sat to 85% you would be gasping and freaking out... hypoxia is a very strong drive.. normally.”
So back to my story:
Montrose Hospital: Since I had to go to a “real” hospital, Sarah got me in the car and drove me the hour and a half to Montrose Hospital.  Sarah was not allowed outside the car, since she is obviously a potential carrier, so I had to get myself in and be put in an isolation room where I was allowed no visitors.  Sarah had to drive home alone wonder if or when she would see me again. The medical staff at Montrose were all wonderful and amazing knowing the risk they are putting themselves at by taking care of people like me.  The doctor told me that basically , there is no actual treatment for this viral pneumonia, but we’re following the recommended doses of antibiotics and we’ll know soon if it helps or not.  So in short, if it helps, you’ll get better, if it doesn’t, you’re probably screwed. Knowing that an antibiotic should not have any effect on a viral agent, I was not feeling super strong about my chances.
Luckily for me though the antibiotics started working is some fashion very soon and combined with the oxygen which I have now and will continue with until healed, I did not need a ventilator and I was released a couple days later and feeling a good deal better from where I started.  The antibiotics will not get rid of the viral pneumonia, but they did work to help my body so that my body can develop the antibodies necessary to kill the virus over time.  I will be recovering  for a good long period and I have to have a continuous supply of oxygen for the foreseeable future, but I’m out of the zone of worry! Since coming home, I still have symptoms of night sweats (drenched with sweat at night), easily fatigued, and headaches, but no fever.
I guess the key takeaway point of all this is to watch out for this virus.  It is sneaky, hard to detect, and hard to tell the difference between a mild case, which can be little or nothing and the unlucky 20%.  The reason we have all upended our lives and we are taking all these precautions makes a whole lot more sense when you realize what this thing can do if it’s allowed to infect everyone without limitation at the same time.  I was very lucky to be in a small town that has not yet been hit hard so I received all the care I needed when I needed it.  Others are not so lucky right now.
The good news, as always is that 80% will have little or no symptoms, also the vast majority of those 20% with serious cases will actually survive, but damn this is not a virus to play around with!!
It does explain why we as a country are going to such lengths to try to "flatten the curve" to allow proper treatment for those who need it. My heart goes to all those in places like NY that are dealing with these issues under the most unimaginable conditions possible, and patients going through this and dying alone due to necessary visitor restrictions.  I was very lucky to have great medical care and attention in a place not yet overwhelmed.

I hope this helps some people out there.


----------



## begreen

Here is another skeptic doctor.


He has now apologized for misleading the public and is trying to get the video removed. (Succeeded on YouTube over copyright claim)
_“My early comments about equating with influenza were wrong. They were incorrect. I was part of a chorus that was saying that and we were wrong and I want to apologize for that. I wish I got it right but I got it wrong.”_


----------



## Ashful

Medic21 said:


> One thing people are not contemplating with the current “testing” and the reason so many are so sick and dying.  No one is, still for the most part, being tested until they are deathly sick.


One of my coworkers was tested last week, and found positive.  He has no symptoms, and reports feeling absolutely fine, despite the positive test.  He got tested because he knew he had contact with someone who was showing symptoms.

So, it appears they are testing at least some people who are not deathly sick, although he may be an exceptional case.


----------



## Ashful

SpaceBus said:


> @Ashful colleges were far cheaper and one could work through school. Unless you want to stop at a community College folks can't really work through school anymore. There are a finite number of scholarships and grants. Quite frankly the only way to make it work is student loans.


Maybe, but I'd be surprised if it's really changed that much in the last 13 years.  I went back to school later in life, and as working thru school until 2007, which really isn't that long ago.  It sucks, and it's definitely not easy, but it can be done when it's what needs to be done.


mcdougy said:


> As COVID-19 crisis deepens, out-of-state patients seek help at Philadelphia hospitals
> 
> 
> Patients who are very ill with the coronavirus infection can quickly take a turn for the worse, making long journeys dangerous, medical experts say. Still, hospitals are required to care for all patients seeking treatment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.inquirer.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> @Ashful, I sure hope the WHO ratings are wrong.  This doesn't look good, similar to what has happened elsewhere....Flags won't save anyone at this point


I'm not following you, here.  What flags?


Medic21 said:


> Where at in Pennsylvania?  According to census data the highest density is 2900 per sq/mi.  NYC is 27.000.  Nowhere close.


I don't think bholler even meant to compare PA to NY, but the population density averaged across the entire greater metropolis area of Philadelphia (i.e. the "city-county") is over 11,000 per sq.mi., and several times that in some sections of the city.  I would not be surprised at all if it's higher than 27,000 per sq.mi. in some parts of the city.


Medic21 said:


> It’s not that at all.  See above, I’m tired of hearing about how many people will die... The number of people that die daily from other reasons is ten fold what covid-19 is and all people focus on is that.


The big difference, for me anyway, is the distribution.  It may be true that many more die from other causes, but the likelihood of me or my family being affected by this thru no fault or action of our own is high enough to cause serious concern.  Aside from that, I know three people who died from this disease last week, and I don't normally know three people that die in a given week, let alone from the same random contraction of a disease.


begreen said:


> PS: looks like Dr. Dubravec is an allergist, not a well-known immunologist or policy expert.


Allergy and immunology are inextricably linked:  https://www.abai.org/


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## AlbergSteve

begreen said:


> Here is another skeptic doctor.
> 
> 
> He has now apologized for misleading the public and is trying to get the video removed. (Succeeded on YouTube over copyright claim)
> _“My early comments about equating with influenza were wrong. They were incorrect. I was part of a chorus that was saying that and we were wrong and I want to apologize for that. I wish I got it right but I got it wrong.”_



Another graduate of the Hollywood Upstairs College, like the "immunologist" above.


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## festerw

Ashful said:


> Maybe, but I'd be surprised if it's really changed that much in the last 13 years.  I went back to school later in life, and as working thru school until 2007, which really isn't that long ago.  It sucks, and it's definitely not easy, but it can be done when it's what needs to be done.



You'd be surprised, it's gone up roughly $8000 since 2007 for tuition/room/board.


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## bholler

Ashful said:


> Maybe, but I'd be surprised if it's really changed that much in the last 13 years.  I went back to school later in life, and as working thru school until 2007, which really isn't that long ago.  It sucks, and it's definitely not easy, but it can be done when it's what needs to be done.
> 
> I'm not following you, here.  What flags?
> 
> I don't think bholler even meant to compare PA to NY, but the population density averaged across the entire greater metropolis area of Philadelphia (i.e. the "city-county") is over 11,000 per sq.mi., and several times that in some sections of the city.  I would not be surprised at all if it's higher than 27,000 per sq.mi. in some parts of the city.
> 
> The big difference, for me anyway, is the distribution.  It may be true that many more die from other causes, but the likelihood of me or my family being affected by this thru no fault or action of our own is high enough to cause serious concern.  Aside from that, I know three people who died from this disease last week, and I don't normally know three people that die in a given week, let alone from the same random contraction of a disease.
> 
> Allergy and immunology are inextricably linked:  https://www.abai.org/


I have a feeling you were probably making more than most kids right out of high school would be making as well.  It just isn't reasonable to think a kid in that situation will make enough to come out of college without substantial student loans.


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## Medic21

Coronavirus: Hospitals Across Nation Lay Off Tens Of Thousands Of Healthcare Workers | The Daily Wire
					






					www.dailywire.com
				





More proof to me that this is isolated to larger cities more so than the rural areas.  That’s a ton of layoffs when you think that just a month ago there were more jobs available than they laid off.


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## bholler

Medic21 said:


> Coronavirus: Hospitals Across Nation Lay Off Tens Of Thousands Of Healthcare Workers | The Daily Wire
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailywire.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More proof to me that this is isolated to larger cities more so than the rural areas.  That’s a ton of layoffs when you think that just a month ago there were more jobs available than they laid off.


The article says nothing about the layoffs being only in rural areas.  It does say it is mainly in fields that would not be involved in treating covid 19 patients.  Why would they keep people on that would have nothing to do?


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## paulnlee

bholler said:


> The article says nothing about the layoffs being only in rural areas.  It does say it is mainly in fields that would not be involved in treating covid 19 patients.  Why would they keep people on that would have nothing to do?


WTF is wrong with you! They keep them on the payroll cause they're part of their family and not related by the way. Do you have workers


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## bholler

paulnlee said:


> WTF is wrong with you! They keep them on the payroll cause they're part of their family and not related by the way. Do you have workers


Yes I have workers and they are being paid.  I said nothing about whether what they are doing is the right thing to do or moral etc.  Unfortunately that rarely enters into the decision making of large profit based medical corporations.

Another major factor is the fact that having them there needlessly potentially exposes them and everyone they come in contact with.  Limiting the number of unnecessary people in and out of hospitals makes sense.


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## Medic21

bholler said:


> The article says nothing about the layoffs being only in rural areas.  It does say it is mainly in fields that would not be involved in treating covid 19 patients.  Why would they keep people on that would have nothing to do?


Why would you lay off a Surgical Nurse then scream for people that are retires or have expired licenses to work?  Because they don’t need the nurses in a lot of places because outside of a few hotspots this isn’t a big deal right now.


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## bholler

Medic21 said:


> Why would you lay off a Surgical Nurse then scream for people that are retires or have expired licenses to work?  Because they don’t need the nurses in a lot of places because outside of a few hotspots this isn’t a big deal right now.


Again dismissing this as no big deal.  What is your solution?  You seem to know more than anyone else in the country.


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## Medic21

bholler said:


> Again dismissing this as no big deal.  What is your solution?  You seem to know more than anyone else in the country.


When you have a problem like a sore on your foot do you cut off the entire leg in surgery or do you go after the problem?  Right now we are burying the person as an analogy to what this country is doing with 1/10th of 1% of the population has a viral infection. Even if you look at the deaths, 3/1000th of 1% has died from.  

My local hardware store closed today, permanently.  He said he can’t survive now.  This is what’s happening to this country.  We are killing what we are to save a few people from dying to a virus.  We will be in the same boat in 6 months doing it this way. And our economy will be nonexistent.


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## bholler

Medic21 said:


> When you have a problem like a sore on your foot do you cut off the entire leg in surgery or do you go after the problem?  Right now we are burying the person as an analogy to what this country is doing with 1/10th of 1% of the population has a viral infection. Even if you look at the deaths, 3/1000th of 1% has died from.
> 
> My local hardware store closed today, permanently.  He said he can’t survive now.  This is what’s happening to this country.  We are killing what we are to save a few people from dying to a virus.  We will be in the same boat in 6 months doing it this way. And our economy will be nonexistent.


So your solution is do nothing untill it gets out of hand.  That is a fantastic idea I am sure it will work out really well.  And honestly hardware stores and home centers across the country are doing fantastic.  If he can't survive with everyone off work and many working on their homes that is on him.


How exactly do you propose we go after the "sore" from your analogy?


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## begreen

Yes, looks like a lot of honey-do projects are happening. Our hardware store is hanging in there, so is the lumber yard.


----------



## Medic21

bholler said:


> So your solution is do nothing untill it gets out of hand.  That is a fantastic idea I am sure it will work out really well.  And honestly hardware stores and home centers across the country are doing fantastic.  If he can't survive with everyone off work and many working on their homes that is on him.
> 
> 
> How exactly do you propose we go after the "sore" from your analogy?


They are now closed in our state unless it’s delivery or curbside pickup.


----------



## Medic21

bholler said:


> So your solution is do nothing untill it gets out of hand.  That is a fantastic idea I am sure it will work out really well.  And honestly hardware stores and home centers across the country are doing fantastic.  If he can't survive with everyone off work and many working on their homes that is on him.
> 
> How exactly do you propose we go after the "sore" from your analogy?


Yes, we need to isolate those at risk and go on.  Immunity has to be built for this virus or it will just come right back.  As it is in China right now.


----------



## begreen

Medic21 said:


> Yes, we need to isolate those at risk and go on.  Immunity has to be built for this virus or it will just come right back.  As it is in China right now.


I think this will eventually start happening, but how soon is unknown.  If they allow people back to work and gathering too soon then it will start up all over again. Right now the hospitals are maxed, but coping. As soon as we can get rapid, wide-scale testing in place, some should be able to return to work, especially if testing shows they have developed antibodies to the virus. 

Locally our rate is on the decline due to strong social distancing, but they didn't shut down the hardware stores which should be considered essential. Plumbing and electrical repairs still are happening. In our rural area the hardware store is definitely needed.


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## Ashful

Medic21 said:


> Yes, we need to isolate those at risk and go on.  Immunity has to be built for this virus or it will just come right back.  As it is in China right now.


I think it was begreen who posted a story yesterday of a young couple, where the husband died unexpectedly during the night, while everyone thought he was on the mend from COVID-19.  Similarly, a highschool buddy of mine just passed from this a few days back, and left behind a 12-year old kid and wife, he was 46 and otherwise healthy.  I see several younger alumni from my highschool turning up dead from this virus, some of whom I knew.

Point is, other than the obvious high-risk elderly population, it is becoming very clear that we don't know who is at risk from this bug.  The randomness of young people passing from this virus is very troubling.


----------



## bholler

Medic21 said:


> Yes, we need to isolate those at risk and go on.  Immunity has to be built for this virus or it will just come right back.  As it is in China right now.


And where has that strategy worked before?   What studies state that it will work?  Is this virus mutating to fast for this strategy to work?


----------



## Medic21

bholler said:


> And where has that strategy worked before?   What studies state that it will work?  Is this virus mutating to fast for this strategy to work?


This virus is mutating very slow, slower than normal, that has been studied.   I don’t know if this has ever been done or not but, we are using the Spanish flu pandemic playbook almost page for page and it wasn’t very effective then.  Especially when all they did was hold off a second wave that was worse than the first.  

98% of the deaths in Indiana are over 60 years old.   70% are over 70.  That alone tells me what percentage need quarantined along with those with high risk medical problems.  I tested positive for the antibodies today, never had a symptom with it other than what I thought were allergies.


----------



## Dataman

How do you get tested for Antibodies?  I had some strange illness right before Xmas.  3 Weeks of It.


----------



## Medic21

Dataman said:


> How do you get tested for Antibodies?  I had some strange illness right before Xmas.  3 Weeks of It.


My EMS service purchased the tests so we could test our own employees if there is a high risk exposure.  We tested everyone to get a baseline this weekend.


----------



## bholler

Medic21 said:


> This virus is mutating very slow, slower than normal, that has been studied.   I don’t know if this has ever been done or not but, we are using the Spanish flu pandemic playbook almost page for page and it wasn’t very effective then.  Especially when all they did was hold off a second wave that was worse than the first.
> 
> 98% of the deaths in Indiana are over 60 years old.   70% are over 70.  That alone tells me what percentage need quarantined along with those with high risk medical problems.  I tested positive for the antibodies today, never had a symptom with it other than what I thought were allergies.


So in other words you are just making it up.   I am sure the families of all of those who have died will be relieved to hear more people died from other causes than this disease.


----------



## Ashful

Dataman said:


> How do you get tested for Antibodies?  I had some strange illness right before Xmas.  3 Weeks of It.


Ditto, but mine was just a month ago, and I'm still dealing with respiratory issues as an after-effect.  I often wonder if I've already had this bug, before it was in-fashion.


----------



## Medic21

bholler said:


> So in other words you are just making it up.   I am sure the families of all of those who have died will be relieved to hear more people died from other causes than this disease.


Just as the families of 600,000 that die from cancer could probably care less about a few dying from a virus that never impacted them.

it all perspective.  The perspective now is we destroy our economy to save a few thousand people that are well within their right to stay quarantined if they choose to.  If you don’t feel safe then stay away from the public.  It’s a really simple concept.  If you feel at risk and they open the country and you go out because your a dumbass that has to have someone to tell you to wipe...   that’s on you


----------



## Ludlow

NickW said:


> True to a point... Blew my acl a year and a half ago; called and saw the family doc, sent me to the specialist, who sent me for an MRI and then replaced it. Yes, it needed approval; but in a completely government run operation I'd probably still be waiting for surgery because you can "live" with a blown acl... Maybe that's a little exaggerated, but I believe the private sector can do anything more efficiently than government. I think we have the right idea in this country, it's just poorly executed - too much special interests and pork...



Because Government is their biggest customer, and dictates the price. Just like Walmart and how it squeezes it's suppliers.


----------



## begreen

It is exaggerated. I know too many people living in other countries that would dispute the claim of a long delay for a blown ACL. Government agencies don't have to be inefficient, particularly when politicians keep their meddling hands off.


----------



## NickW

begreen said:


> It is exaggerated. I know too many people living in other countries that would dispute the claim of a long delay for a blown ACL. Government agencies don't have to be inefficient, particularly when politicians keep their meddling hands off.


So are you saying you want government run health care but the meddling politicians to keep their hands off of it?


----------



## begreen

NickW said:


> So are you saying you want government run health care but the meddling politicians to keep their hands off of it?


Government-run healthcare has succeeded in G20 nations. The root problem is treating healthcare as a profit center. Healthcare, like education, should not be profit-driven.


----------



## Sodbuster

Medic21 said:


> Why would you lay off a Surgical Nurse then scream for people that are retires or have expired licenses to work?  Because they don’t need the nurses in a lot of places because outside of a few hotspots this isn’t a big deal right now.



My wife an her colleagues get a good chuckle from your posts.


----------



## Medic21

Sodbuster said:


> My wife an her colleagues get a good chuckle from your posts.


Why? Because our statewide hospital census has been at a 5 year low for 6 weeks now?  That’s what has happened all over.  There are hospitals that have lost so much money with how this was handled, banning elective procedures, and never got that big influx of pts they have lost 50% of their revenue and are wondering how they will continue next month.  This is how it played out in areas that were not a few large cities that were/are hit hard.  The country is bigger than where you live.  









						During a Pandemic, an Unanticipated Problem: Out-of-Work Health Workers (Published 2020)
					

Across the country, plunging revenues from canceled nonemergency medical appointments have forced hospitals to furlough or cut the pay of doctors, nurses and other staff.




					www.google.com


----------



## Medic21

I’m sitting at work right now.  Today we had a briefing from the local health department.  They cancelled all medical procedures per the governors orders 5 weeks ago at the community hospital.  Today they have 3 covid pts admitted in the hospital out of 120 cases in the county.  They have 5 other pts admitted in the hospital.  8 patients in a 40 bed community hospital.  4 nurses working out of a normal staff of 25 on the floor.  The rest had hours cut due to a low census.  

My wife works at one of 5 level 1 and 2 trauma centers in the state. She has had her hours down staffed in the ER 6 times this month. Why? No patients coming in. She is qualified to work ICU and they have been down staffing every day also so she doesn’t work. I take transfers to these facilities and see more open beds than I have in a decade.

Indianapolis is not like that. Other large cities are not like that. According to the State we have 50% of our ICU beds available today. it’s more than yesterday.

Tell me what’s so comical about what I said?


----------



## Sodbuster

There will be an influx of patients at some point, and then they will be at 100% capacity. Plus PICU doesn't  figure into this number, some surgeries are still proceeding, and illnesses never take  a break. You're God complex is typical of what they see from Paramedics.


----------



## Medic21

Sodbuster said:


> There will be an influx of patients at some point, and then they will be at 100% capacity. Plus PICU doesn't  figure into this number, some surgeries are still proceeding, and illnesses never take  a break. You're God complex is typical of what they see from Paramedics.


You speculate there will be an influx.  There is nothing that guarantees it.  There is more indication it has started to flatten out now.  I have no idea if they figured PICU numbers into there reporting or not.  I do know from a family member that is a pediatric infectious disease specialist that she has had zero covid pts inpatient so far.  This is not a kids disease in the way it effects those over 50 especially.  

Frankly I’ve dealt with enough arrogant Doctors Helpers over the years I could care less if they think a Paramedic has a god complex. We do totally different jobs and I don’t pretend to do theirs. They can’t do mine just based on skill level, scope of practice, and lack of a physician to direct what I do on scene. There is a reason why the Paramedic is in charge of the RN on a medical helicopter. It’s our world not theirs.

Frankly if all she can come up with is a God Complex to counter what we are seeing in our area then the opinion is empty of any substance.


----------



## bholler

Medic21 said:


> You speculate there will be an influx.  There is nothing that guarantees it.  There is more indication it has started to flatten out now.  I have no idea if they figured PICU numbers into there reporting or not.  I do know from a family member that is a pediatric infectious disease specialist that she has had zero covid pts inpatient so far.  This is not a kids disease in the way it effects those over 50 especially.
> 
> Frankly I’ve dealt with enough arrogant Doctors Helpers over the years I could care less if they think a Paramedic has a god complex. We do totally different jobs and I don’t pretend to do theirs. They can’t do mine just based on skill level, scope of practice, and lack of a physician to direct what I do on scene. There is a reason why the Paramedic is in charge of the RN on a medical helicopter. It’s our world not theirs.
> 
> Frankly if all she can come up with is a God Complex to counter what we are seeing in our area then the opinion is empty of any substance.


You talk about how you don't pretend to do their jobs yet you are on here telling us all how you know more about this pandemic than people like Fauci.  Do you not see the irony?


----------



## Medic21

bholler said:


> You talk about how you don't pretend to do their jobs yet you are on here telling us all how you know more about this pandemic than people like Fauci.  Do you not see the irony?


I know what I see.  I listen to people equally credentialed on the other side of the house.  Are their opinions less validated because they have a different one.  They are just as smart as the others.  

 I see the data coming out of antibody testing that suggests we could have exponentially higher cases.  To the point it’s possible the death rate is under the seasonal flu, it looks scarier because it happened in a shorter time period.  Some of that needs vetted and needs further studies.  NYC is doing the largest test run starting today.  

I’m not listening to someone based on a political appointment.   Remember he said 1-2 million deaths by now.  There is a whole big picture out there.  We are nowhere out if the woods but, I am a perfect example that steps can be taken to mitigate risks without closing everything down and destroying livelihoods and the economy.


----------



## bholler

Medic21 said:


> I know what I see.  I listen to people equally credentialed on the other side of the house.  Are their opinions less validated because they have a different one.  They are just as smart as the others.
> 
> I see the data coming out of antibody testing that suggests we could have exponentially higher cases.  To the point it’s possible the death rate is under the seasonal flu, it looks scarier because it happened in a shorter time period.  Some of that needs vetted and needs further studies.  NYC is doing the largest test run starting today.
> 
> I’m not listening to someone based on a political appointment.   Remember he said 1-2 million deaths by now.  There is a whole big picture out there.  We are nowhere out if the woods but, I am a perfect example that steps can be taken to mitigate risks without closing everything down and destroying livelihoods and the economy.


Who said 1 to 2 million and when?


----------



## Ashful

begreen said:


> Government-run healthcare has succeeded in G20 nations. The root problem is treating healthcare as a profit center. Healthcare, like education, should not be profit-driven.


I think the issue here is that the political and economic conditions that have turned us into the most powerful nation in the world over the last 70 years are the same conditions that will not allow us to have great success with government-run healthcare.  You can’t always have your cake, and eat it too.

Before you get too high on those nations with successful government-run healthcare, let’s consider the opportunities that our system provides to us, which most in those other countries can only wish to have.  I have spent some small fraction of nearly every year working in Europe, entirely countries with government-run healthcare, for 25 years now.  The engineers, salesmen, and other professionals I regularly deal with over there envy our standard of living, they will simply never achieve it in their system.  Of course, I’m not ignoring that some at the bottom of that employment food chain likely feel the reverse, there are pros and cons in every chosen system. 

I suppose that we could easily provide our citizenry with all of the rights and standards of living of Russia, China, that great world-economic powerhouse of Canada, or other similarly-sized countries with similar or greater natural resources, if our goal is to have government more involved in our daily lives.  But I think our system has proven far better, at least for nearly everyone I know.  Yes, I have many Chinese friends, and even four coworkers born and raised in Russia.  I don’t associate with Canadians, though.


----------



## SpaceBus

TriCare for all is sounding pretty nice right now. Good thing there's already been decades of pilot testing for socialized medicine. 

@Ashful have you ever received medical care from Germany? Obviously Russia and China have about the same standards as the US for the majority of things, unless you are wealthy and then folks can get the good medical care. Germany affords top level care to all people regardless of income. S. Korea is like this too. I've actually gotten a broken arm set and put in a cast in Germany, and that was the easiest hospital visit of my life. No bill, no BS, just the care I needed. You are right that economic policies allowed for the rich of this country to get richer over the last century. For profit Healthcare is an excellent example of a policy that helps the rich get richer. You talk about all this wealth as if everyone got to see it, almost like you are a socialist!


----------



## Medic21

bholler said:


> Who said 1 to 2 million and when?





			https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/04/02/experts-trumps-advisers-doubt-white-houses-240000-coronavirus-deaths-estimate/%3foutputType=amp


----------



## RockCastile

Medic21 said:


> Remember he said 1-2 million deaths by now



Did you read the WaPo article you just cited to prove it? You would have seen this quote from Fauci: “I’ve looked at all the models. I’ve spent a lot of time on the models. They don’t tell you anything. You can’t really rely upon models." Same article also states the 2 million figure was based on 5-6 modelers assuming NO action taken. The 1 million figure assuming "moderate mitigation" efforts. 

Fauci's thoughts on the 1-2 million figure? See:








						As Trump Imagines '2.2 Million Deaths' From COVID-19 in the U.S., a Top Federal Disease Expert Cautions Against Believing Worst-Case Scenarios
					

"They always overshoot," Anthony Fauci says. "Generally, the reality is somewhere in the middle."




					www.google.com


----------



## bholler

Medic21 said:


> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/04/02/experts-trumps-advisers-doubt-white-houses-240000-coronavirus-deaths-estimate/%3foutputType=amp







__





						As Trump Imagines '2.2 Million Deaths' From COVID-19 in the U.S., a Top Federal Disease Expert Cautions Against Believing Worst-Case Scenarios - Reason.com
					






					reason.com
				




I still can't figure out who made the original claim but it was for an unmitigated pandemic and even then Fauci thinks it is high.


----------



## Sodbuster

Frankly I’ve dealt with enough arrogant Doctors Helpers over the years I could care less if they think a Paramedic has a god complex.

Why do you assume she's a nurse, is it because she's a women?


----------



## mcdougy

Our not for profit hospitals here, didn't  cut ANY staff. The stories of Canadian health care failures are few and wait times are within reason.  Our sons acl was 2.5 months from diagnosis to the table. Not perfect, but within reason, he asked for some of the delay because he wanted to do it once school had finished.  If I recall it would have been a 45 day wait vs the 75 day he requested.


----------



## Ashful

SpaceBus said:


> @Ashful have you ever received medical care from Germany? Obviously Russia and China have about the same standards as the US for the majority of things, unless you are wealthy and then folks can get the good medical care. Germany affords top level care to all people regardless of income.


Yes, actually I have spent more time in Germany than any other country, I used to live there a fraction of every year, in the late 1990’s.  It is a very good system, and in fact I had debated relocating there permanently at one time before I had a family, but that was not the point of my prior post. 

My point was that those friends of mine with similar jobs living in Germany were cramming their entire families into 1000 sq.ft. flats or having to live with their parents in multi-generational households, when I and my American coworkers were sprawling in 4x to 8x the house with 10x to 100x the property at a similar level of experience and education.  I don’t want to confuse causation for correlation, there are many factors in the equation with healthcare being but one factor, but the fact remains that any suburban professional here can live like royalty compared to their professional equivalent in Germany.


----------



## SpaceBus

Ashful said:


> Yes, actually I have spent more time in Germany than any other country, I used to live there a fraction of every year, in the late 1990’s.  It is a very good system, and in fact I had debated relocating there permanently at one time before I had a family, but that was not the point of my prior post.
> 
> My point was that those friends of mine with similar jobs living in Germany were cramming their entire families into 1000 sq.ft. flats or having to live with their parents in multi-generational households, when I and my American coworkers were sprawling in 4x to 8x the house with 10x to 100x the property at a similar level of experience and education.  I don’t want to confuse causation for correlation, there are many factors in the equation with healthcare being but one factor, but the fact remains that any suburban professional here can live like royalty compared to their professional equivalent in Germany.


Germany is also much, much older and smaller than the US. It's kind of like comparing apples to shoes I suppose. I wish Americans would live in larger multi generational houses. It has proven to be a bad thing for the pandemic, but usually it is a good thing. Folks keep their wealth within their families and can do more for each other if they stay together. After having lived in Italy, England, and several US states while also traveling across Europe and the US I can say most Americans live in wastefully large houses for seemingly no good reason. Perhaps some folks like being able to say their house is huge, but that's just a liability to me. All those extra unused rooms to clean, higher energy bills, and more maintenance. If your large family is occupying all the square footage it makes sense, but that's why I called  most homes wastefully large, not tastelessly large which I think they are. 


Anyway, this has drifted I suppose.


----------



## Ashful

SpaceBus said:


> Germany is also much, much older and smaller than the US. It's kind of like comparing apples to shoes I suppose. I wish Americans would live in larger multi generational houses. It has proven to be a bad thing for the pandemic, but usually it is a good thing. Folks keep their wealth within their families and can do more for each other if they stay together. After having lived in Italy, England, and several US states while also traveling across Europe and the US I can say most Americans live in wastefully large houses for seemingly no good reason. Perhaps some folks like being able to say their house is huge, but that's just a liability to me. All those extra unused rooms to clean, higher energy bills, and more maintenance. If your large family is occupying all the square footage it makes sense, but that's why I called  most homes wastefully large, not tastelessly large which I think they are.
> 
> 
> Anyway, this has drifted I suppose.


Hey, I wasn’t the one who cited Germany as the example to debate, I was only responding to your question about it.  But I wouldn’t say it’s drifted, it’s all interconnected, and likely all good information for someone to debate.

And you can live with my mother-in-law, if you want... I will not.


----------



## SpaceBus

Ashful said:


> Hey, I wasn’t the one who cited Germany as the example to debate, I was only responding to your question about it.  But I wouldn’t say it’s drifted, it’s all interconnected, and likely all good information for someone to debate.
> 
> And you can live with my mother-in-law, if you want... I will not.


Usually the wife's mother stays at her own house in these situations, but I do understand. I don't think living with my MIL is an option either. Most of my family is estranged, so I do understand that it doesn't always work!


----------



## bholler

Ashful said:


> Yes, actually I have spent more time in Germany than any other country, I used to live there a fraction of every year, in the late 1990’s.  It is a very good system, and in fact I had debated relocating there permanently at one time before I had a family, but that was not the point of my prior post.
> 
> My point was that those friends of mine with similar jobs living in Germany were cramming their entire families into 1000 sq.ft. flats or having to live with their parents in multi-generational households, when I and my American coworkers were sprawling in 4x to 8x the house with 10x to 100x the property at a similar level of experience and education.  I don’t want to confuse causation for correlation, there are many factors in the equation with healthcare being but one factor, but the fact remains that any suburban professional here can live like royalty compared to their professional equivalent in Germany.


That may all be true.  But really the urban professional isn't the one who has trouble affording healthcare here.


----------



## begreen

Medic21 said:


> You speculate there will be an influx. There is nothing that guarantees it.


Given the transmissibility of this virus and the fact that less than 5% has been exposed, it seems there is a fairly good chance of an extended influx wouldn't you say? If history is any lesson, this seems guaranteed when stay as home orders are relaxed.


----------



## begreen

Ashful said:


> The engineers, salesmen, and other professionals I regularly deal with over there envy our standard of living, they will simply never achieve it in their system. Of course, I’m not ignoring that some at the bottom of that employment food chain likely feel the reverse, there are pros and cons in every chosen system.


I have experienced the opposite, working with engineers too. Some think that what is happening here in the healthcare realm is absurd.  FWIW, they are not in small flats either, but not in sprawling mansions either. That is by choice. The bigger the place the more stuff it collects and the more there is to maintain.


----------



## Medic21

begreen said:


> Given the transmissibility of this virus and the fact that less than 5% has been exposed, it seems there is a fairly good chance of an extended influx wouldn't you say? If history is any lesson, this seems guaranteed when stay as home orders are relaxed.


Except the other side is know starting to show, through early antibody testing, that a much larger portion of the population has had it.  Some number thrown out at almost 30% of the population in some areas.  I know it’s early and those studies need peer reviewed, vetted, and further studies need completed but initial numbers are 25x and up to 85x the number of known cases is the actual number of cases.  

Somewhere in there is the actual number and I do believe this based in wht we do know about how contagious this is.


----------



## Ashful

I’m real interested to see the eventual results of post-viral testing, when all of us that never had suspected or confirmed cases get tested, and many find out they had this thing without ever knowing it.  I hope I’m so lucky to be in that group, I’ve heard estimates it may represent approximately 50% of all cases.

Roughly applying that 50% estimate to begreen’s quoted 5% of the population having had confirmed or suspected cases, we can assume 10% of the population has already been exposed and built immunity.  Still a very small number, and many more to go...


----------



## Sodbuster

Medic21 said:


> You speculate there will be an influx.  There is nothing that guarantees it.  There is more indication it has started to flatten out now.  I have no idea if they figured PICU numbers into there reporting or not.  I do know from a family member that is a pediatric infectious disease specialist that she has had zero covid pts inpatient so far.  This is not a kids disease in the way it effects those over 50 especially.
> 
> Frankly I’ve dealt with enough arrogant Doctors Helpers over the years I could care less if they think a Paramedic has a god complex. We do totally different jobs and I don’t pretend to do theirs. They can’t do mine just based on skill level, scope of practice, and lack of a physician to direct what I do on scene. There is a reason why the Paramedic is in charge of the RN on a medical helicopter. It’s our world not theirs.
> 
> Frankly if all she can come up with is a God Complex to counter what we are seeing in our area then the opinion is empty of any substance.






Medic21 said:


> You speculate there will be an influx.  There is nothing that guarantees it.  There is more indication it has started to flatten out now.  I have no idea if they figured PICU numbers into there reporting or not.  I do know from a family member that is a pediatric infectious disease specialist that she has had zero covid pts inpatient so far.  This is not a kids disease in the way it effects those over 50 especially.
> 
> Frankly I’ve dealt with enough arrogant Doctors Helpers over the years I could care less if they think a Paramedic has a god complex. We do totally different jobs and I don’t pretend to do theirs. They can’t do mine just based on skill level, scope of practice, and lack of a physician to direct what I do on scene. There is a reason why the Paramedic is in charge of the RN on a medical helicopter. It’s our world not theirs.
> 
> Frankly if all she can come up with is a God Complex to counter what we are seeing in our area then the opinion is empty of any substance.



Well my wife in an anesthesiologist  MD, so fail on Dr's helper, and my daughter is a PICU nurse. They've both seen a fair share of Paramedic F'ups. Not to be disrespectful there are good and bad in every profession.


----------



## begreen

Ashful said:


> I’m real interested to see the eventual results of post-viral testing, when all of us that never had suspected or confirmed cases get tested, and many find out they had this thing without ever knowing it.  I hope I’m so lucky to be in that group, I’ve heard estimates it may represent approximately 50% of all cases.
> 
> Roughly applying that 50% estimate to begreen’s quoted 5% of the population having had confirmed or suspected cases, we can assume 10% of the population has already been exposed and built immunity.  Still a very small number, and many more to go...


Then there is this.








						The Pandemic’s Hidden Toll: Half a Million Deaths (Published 2020)
					

Far more people died in 2020 during the pandemic than have been officially reported, a review of mortality data in 35 countries shows.



					www.nytimes.com


----------



## Medic21

Sodbuster said:


> Well my wife in an anesthesiologist  MD, so fail on Dr's helper, and my daughter is a PICU nurse. They've both seen a fair share of Paramedic F'ups. Not to be disrespectful there are good and bad in every profession.


I will not disagree with that statement. There are ER Docs that I would take any family member to, ones I’d drink with, and ones I take pts to other hospitals when they are working.  My wife is a 
NP in a Level 2 Trauma Center Pediatric ER, she has been there for 16 years and all her coworkers run the entire spectrum.  Hell, I have coworkers that the only pt I’d feel comfortable with them having would be my ex wife if she was dying, take care of a lot of problems I have.  

Yes I was a little harsh, I’m sick of all the nurses that disrespect Paramedics. I can and will run circles around a lot of RNs in an emergency and that’s not a god complex, that’s 25 years of service with more than 1 combat deployment as a flight medic. That’s knowing nothing will be thrown at me to shake me and surprise me.

People take it as arrogance and RNs don’t understand that. I did a surgical airway in the ER the other day, I did way too many in combat and one of the RNs complained because I did it instead of the doc. The reason was the doc had only ever done one on a pig trach and this guy was a nightmare scenario. They do not understand what we do and what we can do. I respect the hell out of the anesthesiologists, I learned so much from them flying pts from a forward surgical teams to trauma teams in combat. If you want to learn how to resuscitate a pt thats who you talk to. We spend about 40 hrs 1 on 1 in Paramedic school with one for airway training. But, when was the last time she RSId a pt pinned in a vehicle on the side of the highway in a snow storm? Or in the living room on the floor during a cardiac arrest? Or in a 8 by 8 bathroom at 3am? We do a very unpredictable job in very austere conditions compared to an operating room suit. We are expected to perform without mistakes and without hesitation. All while being the only advanced provider on scene 99% of the time. I get to do all this with the closest trauma center 2 hours away by ground.

The job we do is 1000 times different from anything the hospital staff does. When your daughter has a pt crash there is an advanced provider in the room to run the code. That’s me where ever it happens. I’m the doc, nurse,rt, and registration clerk rolled into one in someone’s house or wherever the call happens to be. One of the best ER docs I know failed as a Paramedic, he couldn’t perform in those conditions. Almost all RNs that become Paramedics suck at working prehospital. Almost all experienced Paramedics that become RNs excel. 

I’m very good at my job and happy as a Paramedic. I may be a little arrogant at times but, I’ll back it up anytime I need to.  I’ve been wrong and I’ve learned from it.  I learn something every shift I work.


----------



## Medic21

Sodbuster said:


> Well my wife in an anesthesiologist  MD, so fail on Dr's helper, and my daughter is a PICU nurse. They've both seen a fair share of Paramedic F'ups. Not to be disrespectful there are good and bad in every profession.


Oh, and you’re in Michigan.  We laugh at the Michigan Paramedics and their limits.  Not all states are the same and northern Indiana is some of the most advanced prehospital care you will find anywhere in the nation.


----------



## RockCastile

Medic21 said:


> northern Indiana is some of the most advanced prehospital care you will find anywhere in the nation.



Everyone knows that. God works there.


----------



## Medic21

RockCastile said:


> Everyone knows that. God works there.


You mean it’s Gods Country lol.


----------



## Ashful




----------



## PaulOinMA

Nan and I LOVE Green Acres.  I am so Oliver.  Nan is so Lisa.  Great show!


----------



## Ashful

PaulOinMA said:


> Nan and I LOVE Green Acres.  I am so Oliver.  Nan is so Lisa.  Great show!


I’m almost ashamed to admit it, it must be about the dumbest thing anyone ever put on film, but I do get a real kick out of that show.  That particular was on last night’s re-run on MeTV, I thought it might bring some levity to this thread.


----------



## SpaceBus

Ashful said:


> I’m almost ashamed to admit it, it must be about the dumbest thing anyone ever put on film, but I do get a real kick out of that show.  That particular was on last night’s re-run on MeTV, I thought it might bring some levity to this thread.


It is fairly entertaining. I find that most 50's and 60's era TV shows to be enjoyable. I especially like seeing all the old american made appliances that are probably still around...


----------



## Sodbuster

Medic21 said:


> Oh, and you’re in Michigan.  We laugh at the Michigan Paramedics and their limits.  Not all states are the same and northern Indiana is some of the most advanced prehospital care you will find anywhere in the nation.



While we are on the topic, I had a chance to talk to my wife about this discussion, and here is her take on it:
1. Your combat training was very essential in your becoming the Paramedic you are today. She works with a fellow MD who had combat               training and her skills and training are impressive, her words not mine.
2. Your emergency trach in the ER, was risky, if it had gone south, who would you call? Most hospitals have an Anesthesia or ENT team on 
      standby for situations like  this, unless they are a very small hospital. 
3. Many non Military Paramedics bring the patient in with the tube in the goose, more often than not.
4. We all work in our own areas of expertise, and all help each other.  What's the smallest baby you've had to intubate?

The other situations you mentioned she certainly could handle, but doesn't get calls like you do, or a a fully stocked rig.


----------



## Medic21

Sodbuster said:


> While we are on the topic, I had a chance to talk to my wife about this discussion, and here is her take on it:
> 1. Your combat training was very essential in your becoming the Paramedic you are today. She works with a fellow MD who had combat               training and her skills and training are impressive, her words not mine.
> 2. Your emergency trach in the ER, was risky, if it had gone south, who would you call? Most hospitals have an Anesthesia or ENT team on
> standby for situations like  this, unless they are a very small hospital.
> 3. Many non Military Paramedics bring the patient in with the tube in the goose, more often than not.
> 4. We all work in our own areas of expertise, and all help each other.  What's the smallest baby you've had to intubate?
> 
> The other situations you mentioned she certainly could handle, but doesn't get calls like you do, or a a fully stocked rig.


2) if I hadn’t done it’s would have  just called the corner anyways there was no way to adequately ventilate the patient between me the flight crew the doc they were close to 10 intubation attempts and multiple failed supraglotic airways.  First one I had ever done outside of the military.  

3) There’s a big problem with additional training after paramedic school. The reality most paramedics are required to do more intubations to graduate paramedic school then they will do in the next five years in their career. If medics are failing to recognize a situation like that. Then that falls back on their medical director and their supervisors and their failure to ensure proper patient care. This does not happen anywhere around me. If a medic did it once And failed to recognize it they’d have a different career.

4) A five day old Shaken baby. I’ve RSI’d A handful of pediatric trauma patients over the years. It’s not preferable or normally needed to intubate kids in the prehospital setting.  The skill of controlling an airway Is a simple muscle memory skill.  The when and why Is the hard part

just like being a firefighter or police officer a mechanic or any other occupation the person is only as good as they want to learn and they want to train. We’ve had a huge disconnect for years in EMS there’s been no budgets for training.  There’s no time for training. Some of us spend money out of our own pockets and take our own time to attend relevant trainings. I will admit this is not the norm.


----------



## begreen

About 3.5 million people lost their employer-paid health insurance in the last 2 weeks of March. The April tally is not in but it's estimated to be 35 million. The number of uninsured in Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Chile, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Japan, New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, S. Korea, Spain, Sweden, Turkey, and the UK - 0 - zero - none.


----------



## mcdougy

Govt run works. Everyone has the same level of care,  staff are paid to get trained, nurses make 90-100k with a little o.t., custodial staff make 25$ an hour, rpn's 35$, psw $30. ...etc etc. The local hospital network employs around 16,000 workers across 3 locations. Management are the toughest spots to fill. Entry level management is 105k with a tremendous amount of work and stress, many people return to their previous jobs. Paramedics I would assume is somewhere in the neighborhood of 85k-100k with some o.t.  It's a good deal for ALL. Keeping it completely govt run is the answer, mixing it with private/govt subsidized does not work. Level of care goes down. LTC facilities in general are our examples of the mixed system. Psw at a LTC facility makes 18$ and only gets hired part time hours, making them work at several locations. Nurses are the same story at LTC as well, Part time/no benefits less pay.


----------



## begreen

Healthcare like education should not be a profit center.


----------



## Medic21

begreen said:


> Healthcare like education should not be a profit center.



This!!

In EMS we are happy if we break even.


----------



## Ashful

mcdougy said:


> Govt run works... nurses make 90-100k with a little o.t.,


You say that as if it is a good thing.  Personally, I don’t want to pay nurses 3x the national average individual income in this country, every time I need medical care.  That is completely insane.


----------



## bholler

Ashful said:


> You say that as if it is a good thing.  Personally, I don’t want to pay nurses 3x the national average individual salary in this country, every time I need medical care.  That is completely insane.


The difference here is you pay insurance companies and large medical groups etc. massive amounts ontop of what the medical professionals get paid.  I would much rather have the people giving care more money and cut out the multiple levels of paper pushers who don't contribute to care but get a large share of the profits.  

And why is it you think nurses arent worth that much?


----------



## Ashful

bholler said:


> The difference here is you pay insurance companies and large medical groups etc. massive amounts ontop of what the medical professionals get paid.  I would much rather have the people giving care more money and cut out the multiple levels of paper pushers who don't contribute to care but get a large share of the profits.
> 
> And why is it you think nurses arent worth that much?


You make a good point about insurance overhead.  But your final question is absurd, it has nothing to do with my personal feelings.  The free market determined what nurses are worth, not me.  People who choose to pursue a career in nursing despite todays known salary statistics, including three in my direct family, determine what nurses are worth... not me.

Hey, it would be great if everyone could suddenly double their income, despite the choices they’ve made, whether that be a choice to go to school for nursing or otherwise. Then every service and product would cost twice as much, and we’d end up right back where we started. Of course, that already happens over time, we call it inflation.


----------



## bholler

Ashful said:


> You make a good point about insurance overhead.  But your final question is absurd, it has nothing to do with my personal feelings.  The free market determined what nurses are worth, not me.  People who choose to pursue a career in nursing despite todays known salary statistics, including three in my direct family, determine what nurses are worth... not me.
> 
> Hey, it would be great if everyone could suddenly double their income, despite the choices they’ve made, whether that be a choice to go to school for nursing or otherwise. Then every service and product would cost twice as much, and we’d end up right back where we started. Of course, that already happens over time, we call it inflation.


The difference is the healthcare system isn't exactly a free market.  And if we had a properly executed single payer system nurses could easily be paid double what they are paid while still drastically reducing the cost of healthcare.


----------



## Ashful

bholler said:


> The difference is the healthcare system isn't exactly a free market.  And if we had a properly executed single payer system nurses could easily be paid double what they are paid while still drastically reducing the cost of healthcare.


Maybe.  Sounds utopian.  I don’t think it’s a realistic expectation, though.


----------



## Sodbuster

Ashful said:


> You say that as if it is a good thing.  Personally, I don’t want to pay nurses 3x the national average individual income in this country, every time I need medical care.  That is completely insane.



So you think my daughter should have gone through 4 years of nursing school, work in a PICU with very sick children, with syndromes most people have never heard of, and be ECMO (very complicated) certified for 30K a year. I pray no one in your family whether it's your own children or grand children get very ill, or have some rare condition. Have them treated by a 30K RN.


----------



## SpaceBus

Ashful said:


> You say that as if it is a good thing.  Personally, I don’t want to pay nurses 3x the national average individual income in this country, every time I need medical care.  That is completely insane.


Or perhaps our nurses are underpaid, as well as the doctors. If education and liability insurance were less expensive perhaps nurses and doctors wouldn't have to charge as much for their services.


----------



## begreen

False presumptions. According to *U.S.* Census Bureau data from 2018, the latest release, the *median* household *income* was $63,179. Many nurses are single parents.  In Seattle that would be a low income and a struggle for a single parent to pay the bills.


----------



## NickW

bholler said:


> The difference is the healthcare system isn't exactly a free market.  And if we had a properly executed single payer system nurses could easily be paid double what they are paid while still drastically reducing the cost of healthcare.


Unfortunately, properly executed is the issue... Nothing govt run here is well executed. The first step would be fixing the system, which ain't gonna happen anytime soon...


----------



## begreen

NickW said:


> Unfortunately, properly executed is the issue... Nothing govt run here is well executed. The first step would be fixing the system, which ain't gonna happen anytime soon...


Nothing is perfect. There are lots of flaws in private healthcare systems too. That said, the Medicare system is pretty well run.


----------



## paulnlee

begreen said:


> Nothing is perfect. There are lots of flaws in private healthcare systems too. That said, the Medicare system is pretty well run.


Are you on it?


----------



## begreen

paulnlee said:


> Are you on it?


Yes, have been for several years now.


----------



## bholler

Ashful said:


> Maybe.  Sounds utopian.  I don’t think it’s a realistic expectation, though.


It works elsewhere that way.  I am sure if we wanted it to work here it would.  The problem is many would be fighting to make it fail from the start.  Our govt needs fixed before anything else meaningful can happen.


----------



## bholler

NickW said:


> Unfortunately, properly executed is the issue... Nothing govt run here is well executed. The first step would be fixing the system, which ain't gonna happen anytime soon...


I agree with that completely


----------



## paulnlee

begreen said:


> Yes, have been for several years now.


I'm surprised. I retired early from Ma Bell in 1993 at age 49. During my 25 years I never paid a penny for health insurance. After I retired I still paid nothing, until that letter---your on medicare. So starting then and still I have to pay $$$$ to medicare and $$$$ to Verizon what I used to have for over 40 years for ZERO.


----------



## bholler

paulnlee said:


> I'm surprised. I retired early from Ma Bell in 1993 at age 49. During my 25 years I never paid a penny for health insurance. After I retired I still paid nothing, until that letter---your on medicare. So starting then and still I have to pay $$$$ to medicare and $$$$ to Verizon what I used to have for over 40 years for ZERO.


How is that the fault of the Medicare system.  Everyone else has to pay why shouldn't you?  If anything blame your former employer who cut you off.


----------



## Ashful

Sodbuster said:


> So you think my daughter should have gone through 4 years of nursing school, work in a PICU with very sick children, with syndromes most people have never heard of, and be ECMO (very complicated) certified for 30K a year. I pray no one in your family whether it's your own children or grand children get very ill, or have some rare condition. Have them treated by a 30K RN.


When did I say nurses should make $30k per year?  I never said that.  They’re trained professionals, of course they need to make more than average salary.  Around here, nurses come out of school landing jobs in the mid-$50k’s, and most often rise into the low-$80k’s by mid-career.  That is what the market has dictated, not $30k... and not $100k.

Was your daughter unaware of nursing salaries when she chose to go to school for nursing?  Was she expecting $100k per year?


----------



## bholler

Ashful said:


> When did I say nurses should make $30k per year?  I never said that.  Around here, nurses come out of school landing jobs in the mid-$50k’s, and most often rise into the low-$80k’s by mid-career.  That is what the market has dictated, not $30k... and not $100k.
> 
> Was your daughter unaware of nursing salaries when she chose to go to school for nursing?  Was she expecting $100k per year?





Ashful said:


> When did I say nurses should make $30k per year?  I never said that.  Around here, nurses come out of school landing jobs in the mid-$50k’s, and most often rise into the low-$80k’s by mid-career.  That is what the market has dictated, not $30k... and not $100k.
> 
> Was your daughter unaware of nursing salaries when she chose to go to school for nursing?  Was she expecting $100k per year?


Yes but that market isnt exactly a free one.


----------



## Medic21

Ashful said:


> When did I say nurses should make $30k per year?  I never said that.  They’re trained professionals, of course they need to make more than average salary.  Around here, nurses come out of school landing jobs in the mid-$50k’s, and most often rise into the low-$80k’s by mid-career.  That is what the market has dictated, not $30k... and not $100k.
> 
> Was your daughter unaware of nursing salaries when she chose to go to school for nursing?  Was she expecting $100k per year?


Nurses should be paid according to AS, BS, MS degrees and here the starting wage reflects that.  I make $75k as a Paramedic with over 20 yrs experience.  Most Medics start at $40k a year here but median is $36k for the state.  We are a little higher because we have major hospital systems employing most and they have made others pay more to compete with the experienced medics.  RNs are a little low.  Wife is at $80k with 15 years and a ton of pediatric and adult trauma certifications with her NP.  She does not work as an NP in the ER as they have done away with the mid level practitioners so her pay scale is at the Masters level.  She is basically maxed out.  

RNs in the hospital are actually underpaid in my opinion.  It’s ass backwards when one in a family practice office is paid higher to take a temp and give a few shots but, that is what’s happening a lot of places.  There were too many RNs coming out of school 10 years ago and it drove wages down.


----------



## Ashful

Medic21 said:


> Nurses should be paid according to AS, BS, MS degrees and here the starting wage reflects that.


Exactly.  Like every other profession, including my own.  And beyond that, different industries will pay at varying rates for the same profession.  I know bholler likes to claim nursing is somehow outside the free market, and that is true of some industries requiring nurses, but not as a whole.  One of my family members who is a nurse has changed careers twice in her 15 years in the profession, with changes in pay to suit those changes.


----------



## bholler

Ashful said:


> Exactly.  Like every other profession, including my own.  And beyond that, different industries will pay at varying rates for the same profession.  I know bholler likes to claim nursing is somehow outside the free market, and that is true of some industries requiring nurses, but not as a whole.  One of my family members who is a nurse has changed careers twice in her 15 years in the profession, with changes in pay to suit those changes.


I don't see how you can say our healthcare system is free market.  Between the multiple large public systems and the fact that pricing is also largely fixed by insurance companies it is simply not a free market.  Yes there certainly are some elements of a free market but many that aren't


----------



## Medic21

bholler said:


> I don't see how you can say our healthcare system is free market.  Between the multiple large public systems and the fact that pricing is also largely fixed by insurance companies it is simply not a free market.  Yes there certainly are some elements of a free market but many that aren't


Pricing isn’t fixed by insurance companies.  Insurance companies dictate payment amounts.  They negotiate lower rates all day long.  It’s the uninsured that pay the most.


----------



## bholler

Medic21 said:


> Pricing isn’t fixed by insurance companies.  Insurance companies dictate payment amounts.  They negotiate lower rates all day long.  It’s the uninsured that pay the most.


And you don't see that as price fixing?


----------



## Medic21

bholler said:


> And you don't see that as price fixing?


Not when the insurance companies regularly pay around 40% of the bill.  They negotiate that lower
Rate.


----------



## Ashful

bholler said:


> I don't see how you can say our healthcare system is free market.  Between the multiple large public systems and the fact that pricing is also largely fixed by insurance companies it is simply not a free market.  Yes there certainly are some elements of a free market but many that aren't


I say it is a free market because it is not a monopoly.  You can always change employers, just as with most other professions.  Insurance companies do not employ the majority of nurses in this country, hospitals, private practices, clinics, and in-home services employ nurses and doctors.  How those employers determine the ratio of pay between these two professions, as well as the others they employ in the course of doing their business, has absolutely nothing to do with the insurance companies handling payment between the patient and that employer.


----------



## SpaceBus

Honestly the whole industry is kind of crooked for nursing. By law an LPN can do almost everything an AS (RN) or BSN (RN), but the LPN requires far less education and experience. My wife has been an LPN for longer than I've known her and she can work circles around most RNs. Hospitals want nurses with nursing degrees because the hospital can then charge more money. Degreed nurses are more profitable for the hospital, but not for the nurse.


----------



## SpaceBus

Ashful said:


> I say it is a free market because it is not a monopoly.  You can always change employers, just as with most other professions.  Insurance companies do not employ the majority of nurses in this country, hospitals, private practices, clinics, and in-home services employ nurses and doctors.  How those employers determine the ratio of pay between these two professions, as well as the others they employ in the course of doing their business, has absolutely nothing to do with the insurance companies handling payment between the patient and that employer.


Honestly Healthcare workers are pretty much pigeonholed into one place of work. Also, the insurance companies frequently dictate pricing. Do you know what it costs to get an IV bag at the hospital? Not even to have the IV catheter placed, but just the bag costs over $100 usually, and it's just  salt water. The insurance companies jack up the prices so they too can make profit. Hospitals are just giant profit centers because most people have to come in contact with lots hazards in their daily lives. Cancers caused by asbestos, concrete dust, silica, Teflon, petrochemicals, auto accidents, muscle injuries, and so on generate big money for hospitals. It's like our economy is based on making people sick and keeping the hospitals full.

Hell, some employers make more profit from a dead employee than a live one. Walmart and several banks got in a big mess for starting life insurance policies on employees without their knowledge.


----------



## Ashful

SpaceBus said:


> Honestly Healthcare workers are pretty much pigeonholed into one place of work. Also, the insurance companies frequently dictate pricing. Do you know what it costs to get an IV bag at the hospital? Not even to have the IV catheter placed, but just the bag costs over $100 usually, and it's just  salt water. The insurance companies jack up the prices so they too can make profit. Hospitals are just giant profit centers because most people have to come in contact with lots hazards in their daily lives. Cancers caused by asbestos, concrete dust, silica, Teflon, petrochemicals, auto accidents, muscle injuries, and so on generate big money for hospitals. It's like our economy is based on making people sick and keeping the hospitals full.
> 
> Hell, some employers make more profit from a dead employee than a live one. Walmart and several banks got in a big mess for starting life insurance policies on employees without their knowledge.


Tinfoil hat time.  Not sure what that last paragraph even has to do with this thread.  Your employer wants you dead?  Sheesh!

Insurance companies don’t set the price of placing an IV, they only negotiate what they’re willing to pay for it.  The hospital sets the price for the IV, the insurance agrees to pay a fraction of that, and the uninsured pay the full price.  Pretty simple system, no conspiracy required.

The only real gripe to be made among the subjects in your last post is with the liability costs created by our litigious society, that results in hospitals needing to charge $100 for plugging you into a bag of salt water.  The cost isn’t in the product, it’s in the procedure around it, and the associated liability.  If you want to gripe about nurses needing more salary, look at where that money is going... to the parasitic lawyers that have attached themselves to that industry. 

And you are not pigeon-holed into anything. My sister has worked at a half dozen different hospitals in the last 20 years. My cousin, an RN, has worked for theee different employers in the last 12 years. One was a very large hospital, one was a home nursing service, and now the third is a call service for tele-medicine. How on earth do you get away with calling that pigeon-holed?


----------



## Ashful

Oh... and before anyone misconstrues what I said as a desire to eliminate all lawyers, that is not what I am saying, either.  But if there should be adjustments made, or government intervention in any way, it should be thru better and more intelligent control of liability.  Our healthcare providers must be liable for our care, but the free-for-all litigious playground we have today is only benefitting a very small and largely-parasitic fraction of our population... the lawyers.


----------



## SpaceBus

No, the cost for the bag is $100, it costs two to three times as much to get a catheter placed. Usually one consumes several IV bags during a hospital stay. Even just  a phlebotomist drawing blood can cost several hundred dollars. I've spent a lot of time in hospitals due to health problems given to me by the military. Thankfully the government covers nearly all of my cost for treatment aside from dental and vision, but that's another story. Honestly though I'd rather just not have to get treatment and not be paid a pension or free healthcare, but again, another story.

Last January I spent nearly a week in the hospital without any surgery, just staying in a room by myself for several days. They gave me some IV iron, an antibiotic, and IVIG therapy and the total cost eclipsed $70,000..... My wife needed life saving abdominal surgery and it was close to or maybe even over six figures. You can't possibly try to tell me this is appropriate. We both needed these life saving interventions, yet without my insurance we would have been denied. Sure, the emergency room has to take a person in and treat them, but once the person is stabilized they will be released if they don't have insurance. My wife worked in an Emergency room in FL for many years, so this is not an uncommon occurrence.

The healthcare system is completely broken and designed to be a profit generator. To say otherwise is completely ignoring the truth staring all of us right in the face.

To quibble about the insurance company vs the hospital setting prices is pointless as well. Both sides are making out like bandits and the American working people are the ones who suffer.


----------



## Sodbuster

Ashful said:


> You say that as if it is a good thing.  Personally, I don’t want to pay nurses 3x the national average individual income in this country, every time I need medical care.  That is completely insane.




Nurses don't make anywhere near 3x the avererage US Salary, which would be around $150K in rough numbers. My Daughter is very satisfied with what she earns, and plans on continuing her education so she can earn more.


----------



## Ludlow

I have two nieces that are nurses. One makes 6 figures. The other went into admin and does very well too. I have yet another niece that her daughter is a new nurse.  She makes an hourly wage you wouldnt believe. I dont know what this poormouthing of nurses wages is all about.


----------



## SpaceBus

I guess you should tell the nurses that went on strike here last year.


----------



## Ashful

Sodbuster said:


> Nurses don't make anywhere near 3x the avererage US Salary, which would be around $150K in rough numbers. My Daughter is very satisfied with what she earns, and plans on continuing her education so she can earn more.


I didn’t say they did.  I was replying to a post that said Canadian nurses all make $90k to $100k.  The average individual salary in the US was $31.1k in 2017, according to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics.  The claimed $90k - $100k rate of all Canadian nurses, the truth of which I actually doubt, would be 3x the average US annual income.  That is what I said, but several people here seem to be incapable of not reading more into, or applying their own agenda to that simple statement.


Ludlow said:


> I have two nieces that are nurses. One makes 6 figures. The other went into admin and does very well too. I have yet another niece that her daughter is a new nurse.  She makes an hourly wage you wouldnt believe. I dont know what this poormouthing of nurses wages is all about.


Each of the nurses in my direct family, are or have been relatively well-paid, as well.  When I say relative, I mean the one with an MS is making nearly 3x the average US annual income with 25 years experience, and the one with the BS is making more than double the annual US income with about 13 years experience.


----------



## Ashful

SpaceBus said:


> I guess you should tell the nurses that went on strike here last year.


Leveraging for higher income is not solely reserved for the destitute.  We can find plenty of examples of wealthy people extorting their employers, customers, and patrons for higher income.  I don’t think the fact that they were striking is proof if anything, one way or the other.


----------



## mcdougy

It's the difference in systems.....the USA and canadian system are much different. Here 90k/4weeks holidays IS the average for a nurse.  Ashful why is it wrong to be paid well for this career?  IIRC a  USA health benefits cost on average 7500 per year, ours is roughly 9000 a year via your  taxes. The difference in cost is outweighed by the amount the employees get paid. Remember if people earn more money, they spend and spread the money as well. Here teachers and fireman also make right around 90 to 100k. The system works well IMO, a good paying job is beneficial for the economy AND THE PERSON.  Be happy for people doing well. As you have said there is alot of good jobs available, the more there are, the better.


----------



## mcdougy

__





						Salary Disclosure | LHSC
					

London Health Sciences Centre, along with other Ontario government-funded organizations, is mandated to publicly disclose the salaries and benefits of employees who made more than $100,000.  The report for the 2021 salaries and benefits of employees can be accessed here




					www.lhsc.on.ca
				




Canadian govt employees (nurses,teachers,fireman,....etc) who make over 100k is public information. Click the link a check out the list ......many registered nurses. Base salary is 48$ an hour add in shift premiums and it's a little over $50. Add in some overtime and you get over 100k. My wife was 99k last year.


----------



## mcdougy

__





						City of London salary info | Ontario Sunshine List
					

Search the list of employees from City of London that appeared on Ontario's sunshine list.




					www.ontariosunshinelist.com
				




For the "serious doubters"


----------



## Sodbuster

mcdougy said:


> It's the difference in systems.....the USA and canadian system are much different. Here 90k/4weeks holidays IS the average for a nurse.  Ashful why is it wrong to be paid well for this career?  IIRC a  USA health benefits cost on average 7500 per year, ours is roughly 9000 a year via your  taxes. The difference in cost is outweighed by the amount the employees get paid. Remember if people earn more money, they spend and spread the money as well. Here teachers and fireman also make right around 90 to 100k. The system works well IMO, a good paying job is beneficial for the economy AND THE PERSON.  Be happy for people doing well. As you have said there is alot of good jobs available, the more there are, the better.



First of all, I do our own taxes, since it became so easy under the tax reform act under President Trump. We don't come close to the itemized deductions, so the standard deduction is a no brainer for us.

Second, we pay for a higher level of health coverage, since my wife has some health issues. We do not need prior authorization to see a specialist. We also have a dear friend that holds a dual citizenship, both in Canada and the US, she chooses to have her health care performed in the US.


----------



## Sodbuster

Ashful said:


> Leveraging for higher income is not solely reserved for the destitute.  We can find plenty of examples of wealthy people extorting their employers, customers, and patrons for higher income.  I don’t think the fact that they were striking is proof if anything, one way or the other.



My daughter used to work for a non-union private employer, Beaumont Health Systems out of Royal Oak Michigan. As a rule, I'm not big on unions, but in this case they need one. Beaumont keeps taking and taking and taking and the nurses have no way to organize, without a union. They still are doing it, taking this benefit, reducing another, and the nurses have no way to fight back. Meanwhile the CEO makes more every year, geez I sound like Begreen  She transitioned to a larger hospital with a strong union and has done well ever since. The biggest problem is that Beaumont has lost many experienced, seasoned nurses, along this many CRNA's. So they have a whole group of new nurses, new CRNA's  who cannot teach and pass along their knowledge.


----------



## SpaceBus

Ashful said:


> Leveraging for higher income is not solely reserved for the destitute.  We can find plenty of examples of wealthy people extorting their employers, customers, and patrons for higher income.  I don’t think the fact that they were striking is proof if anything, one way or the other.


They sure looked wealthy to me, but they definitely left their rolexes at home that day.


----------



## mcdougy

Sodbuster said:


> First of all, I do our own taxes, since it became so easy under the tax reform act under President Trump. We don't come close to the itemized deductions, so the standard deduction is a no brainer for us.
> 
> Second, we pay for a higher level of health coverage, since my wife has some health issues. We do not need prior authorization to see a specialist. We also have a dear friend that holds a dual citizenship, both in Canada and the US, she chooses to have her health care performed in the US.



I'm not sure what you meant by the tax return part?  What I was trying to say is....to "buy" a healthcare package in the U.S.A is roughly 7.5g a year?  Here we don't purchase a plan, it's included in our taxes. I believe it equates to roughly 9g here. 

Your friend may like u.s. healthcare better. That's great.  Do they typically reside in the u.s.a.?  Do they have a home still in Canada? It wouldn't be all that convenient to travel back to one of countries to get medical help if you have no real ties left there. Also I believe there is a rule in place for dual citizens that after a certain amount of time, if you have been in your "other" country, you must wait 3 months to have your medical benefits reinstated her in Canada. My Aunt who was born and raised in Ontario, has lived in Florida for 40yrs does not come back for healthcare either.
My only feeling on why a universal approach to healthcare is better than private is that no one gets left behind. I am not trying to ever say our doctors are better than others, our procedures are not more advanced, our nurses are not more talented,etc etc etc.... Its that EVERYONE GETS TREATMENT and it's NEVER a money burden to seek care for ANYTHING....eyes and dental are not included in this system. (Which is a shame)


----------



## Ashful

mcdougy said:


> Here 90k/4weeks holidays IS the average for a nurse.  Ashful why is it wrong to be paid well for this career?


You misunderstood me, and perhaps I misunderstood you.  All I’m saying is that the market determines the worth of a nurse, a doctor, an engineer, a gardener... anyone who is producing something.  Here today, based on all of the combined factors of supply and demand, that worth is mid-$50k’s for inexperienced nurses out of school with an AS, to mid-$80k’s for an experienced nurse with an MS.  My issue was the prior implication that all nurses were getting $90k to $100k per year, over the graduated and natural system we have today.  After all, if the gap between MS and AS is so small, why would anyone put in that extra cost and effort for another 4 years of hellish school?

But because you asked, my underlying philosophy is that we as a nation have exceeded all others in wealth and power because we allow the individual to excel in ways that other nations do not, whether it be those extra 4 years of nursing school to make 60% more than fellow nurses with an AS only, or any other chosen profession . I believe the “profit center” complaints about our healthcare system from folks like bholler, while made with the best and most sincere intentions, ignore the fact that those profit motives are the sole reason we are ahead of the rest of the world in most areas of medical research. 


Sodbuster said:


> As a rule, I'm not big on unions, but in this case they need one. .. the nurses have no way to fight back. Meanwhile the CEO makes more every year, geez I sound like Begreen


Interesting background, sodbuster.  And yeah, I also catch myself sounding like begreen often enough that my family has sometimes accused me of being a closet liberal.  He is a smart guy, and a wealth of information with a lot of excellent arguments, and not the only one here about whom that could be said. 

What I enjoy most about everyone on this thread is that we can discuss these politically-entangled issues without becoming unnecessarily hostile, this is how folks learn, gather data, and form or change their opinions.


----------



## bholler

Ashful said:


> I say it is a free market because it is not a monopoly.  You can always change employers, just as with most other professions.  Insurance companies do not employ the majority of nurses in this country, hospitals, private practices, clinics, and in-home services employ nurses and doctors.  How those employers determine the ratio of pay between these two professions, as well as the others they employ in the course of doing their business, has absolutely nothing to do with the insurance companies handling payment between the patient and that employer.


True but when the insurance companies say we are only paying a given ammout that determines how much is left to pay nurses etc.


Ashful said:


> You misunderstood me, and perhaps I misunderstood you.  All I’m saying is that the market determines the worth of a nurse, a doctor, an engineer, a gardener... anyone who is producing something.  Here today, based on all of the combined factors of supply and demand, that worth is mid-$50k’s for inexperienced nurses out of school with an AS, to mid-$80k’s for an experienced nurse with an MS.  My issue was the prior implication that all nurses were getting $90k to $100k per year, over the graduated and natural system we have today.  After all, if the gap between MS and AS is so small, why would anyone put in that extra cost and effort for another 4 years of hellish school?
> 
> But because you asked, my underlying philosophy is that we as a nation have exceeded all others in wealth and power because we allow the individual to excel in ways that other nations do not, whether it be those extra 4 years of nursing school to make 60% more than fellow nurses with an AS only, or any other chosen profession . I believe the “profit center” complaints about our healthcare system from folks like bholler, while made with the best and most sincere intentions, ignore the fact that those profit motives are the sole reason we are ahead of the rest of the world in most areas of medical research.
> 
> Interesting background, sodbuster.  And yeah, I also catch myself sounding like begreen often enough that my family has sometimes accused me of being a closet liberal.  He is a smart guy, and a wealth of information with a lot of excellent arguments, and not the only one here about whom that could be said.
> 
> What I enjoy most about everyone on this thread is that we can discuss these politically-entangled issues without becoming unnecessarily hostile, this is how folks learn, gather data, and form or change their opinions.


Yes we did exceed all others for the reasons you stated.  But that is slipping away quickly partly because of the fact that our middle class is struggling.

And all of the medical advances in the world dont help those who can't afford healthcare or go bankrupted by medical bills

And yes I really enjoy the fact that we can have discussions here without the toxicity that abounds so many other places.  I may not agree with you but I still respect your opinion.


----------



## Sodbuster

Sodbuster said:


> First of all, I do our own taxes, since it became so easy under the tax reform act under President Trump. We don't come close to the itemized deductions, so the standard deduction is a no brainer for us.
> 
> Second, we pay for a higher level of health coverage, since my wife has some health issues. We do not need prior authorization to see a specialist. We also have a dear friend that holds a dual citizenship, both in Canada and the US, she chooses to have her health care performed in the US.


*
If my reply shows up in different places, I apologize , it seems to be a glitch in my system.

McDoughy*, my wife's employer offers different insurance plans, and if you want to "upgrade" you can, for a higher premium, otherwise you fall into an HMO type system, and I'm not sure what Canada offers, but basically you have to go to your Primary Care Physician for everything and they decide if you are worthy to see a specialist. It costs my wife's employer about $20K for this insurance, and we pay a good portion of that. If it wasn't for her health issues, we would go with the standard plan. Problem is she generally knows what the problem is and would rather skip to the specialist of her choice. The tax return part is probably irrelevant as I'm not sure how Canada's system works. Our friend, and it's a she only has residency's in both the US and Canada, and frequents both countries (until lately) to care for her mother who has Dementia. She is eligible for Canadian health care, and US health care through her American employer.

*Ashful - *I'm not sure where you are getting this information, but my daughter who is a PICU  4 year degree RN nurse has been on the job for 4 years now and is making $72K per year. She takes care of babies with syndromes most Pediatricians don't encounter over their entire career. The wealthy, along with some charitable organizations fly children from around the world because of the standard of care, and expertise at this hospital.  We have exceeded all other nations in wealth and power because the world has adopted the US dollar as the world currency, and we can print it as well. I was watching 60 minutes the other night and they interviewed a Fed Chairman, who said they had been given the authority to print as much money as necessary to get us out of the Covid crisis. It's basically Monopoly money.

Finally, the hospitals and other institutions do not get reimbursed, nearly what they bill for. The hospital may bill my insurance company $5500 for an ER visit. By the time all the discounts they are probably reimbursed $1500 bucks. Someone, and I apologize for not going back far enough to check, said that the hospitals  charge $100 for an IV bag, I can assure you no one is getting reimbursed $100 for a bag of salt water.


----------



## begreen

The other factor is the student loan debt that these nurses and doctors are carrying with them. This can be a couple hundred grand.  I would MUCH rather our taxpayer dollars went toward paying off first responders and medical caregiver student loans than being used for stock buybacks.


----------



## bholler

I don't know why healthcare got tied to your employment here.  It makes no sense at all.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

Avg. Salary numbers are all over the  place and the Avg dont really tell you much.    . According to the IRS US average  self employed gross is 15 to 29k   Avg Net is 13K . But estimates outside the IRS, the figure is closer to 60K.


----------



## Ludlow

bholler said:


> I don't know why healthcare got tied to your employment here.  It makes no sense at all.


A group of doctors invented health insurance I think. Employers started offering it to employees as a benefit and a way to keep and attract good employees. Employers took the initiative, not government.


----------



## bholler

Ludlow said:


> A group of doctors invented health insurance I think. Employers started offering it to employees as a benefit and a way to keep and attract good employees. Employers took the initiative, not government.


I didn't think the govt had anything to do with it to start.   It just doesn't make any sense at all.


----------



## bholler

Seasoned Oak said:


> Avg. Salary numbers are all over the  place and the Avg dont really tell you much.    . According to the IRS US average  self employed gross is 15 to 29k   Avg Net is 13K . But estimates outside the IRS, the figure is closer to 60K.


I suspect those IRS numbers are taxable income after deductions.


----------



## Medic21

bholler said:


> I don't know why healthcare got tied to your employment here.  It makes no sense at all.



Unions


----------



## bholler

Medic21 said:


> Unions


After some research it looks like it started because of a wage cap put in place by the national war labor board.  Because they couldn't offer more pay to attract the limited number of employees available they started offering other benifits.


----------



## SpaceBus

What's the point of employer provided insurance if  you are too sick to work?


----------



## Sodbuster

I'm not sure that this fits in this discussion, but I had had to go the ER for chest pain, turned out to be benign. However on the CT scan, the Radiologist made note of a 5 MM nodule on my lower lung. The ER NP. recommended a follow up scan, and my primary Dr. agreed and ordered the test. Well, in steps BCBS of Michigan, and denied prior authorization, because the body part had been scanned within their 6 month window. My Dr. appealed the claim, but it was still denied.  So I will wait my 6 months, and ask my Dr. for a followup CT. She wanted the CT, because original one only showed the lower lung and not the entire lung.


----------



## paulnlee

bholler said:


> After some research it looks like it started because of a wage cap put in place by the national war labor board.  Because they couldn't offer more pay to attract the limited number of employees available they started offering other benifits.


When I got out of the Corps in 1966 I had two choices of employment. USPS or City of Plainfield NJ. I chose the city because of the benefits. No union. After 5 years I went to Ma Bell again for the bennies, union this time tho I never joined. So that lure of benefits has been around for some time.


----------



## bholler

paulnlee said:


> When I got out of the Corps in 1966 I had two choices of employment. USPS or City of Plainfield NJ. I chose the city because of the benefits. No union. After 5 years I went to Ma Bell again for the bennies, union this time tho I never joined. So that lure of benefits has been around for some time.


Yes it apparently started during WWII.  That doesn't mean it makes any more sense


----------



## Sodbuster

bholler said:


> Yes it apparently started during WWII.  That doesn't mean it makes any more sense



If pay and benefits are equal, you'd be a fool not to take the job with the same pay and lower out of pocket insurance premiums.


----------



## milothecat

Sodbuster said:


> I'm not sure that this fits in this discussion, but I had had to go the ER for chest pain, turned out to be benign. However on the CT scan, the Radiologist made note of a 5 MM nodule on my lower lung. The ER NP. recommended a follow up scan, and my primary Dr. agreed and ordered the test. Well, in steps BCBS of Michigan, and denied prior authorization, because the body part had been scanned within their 6 month window. My Dr. appealed the claim, but it was still denied.  So I will wait my 6 months, and ask my Dr. for a followup CT. She wanted the CT, because original one only showed the lower lung and not the entire lung.



So are you saying that you didn't get the ct scan the doc wanted because your insurance wouldn't pay?


----------



## mcdougy

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/long-term-care-homes-covid19-1.5556041
		


Looks like many Canadians like the govt run healthcare vs private


----------



## bholler

Sodbuster said:


> If pay and benefits are equal, you'd be a fool not to take the job with the same pay and lower out of pocket insurance premiums.


Yes of course.  That isn't what I am saying makes no sense.  What makes no sense is the idea that employers are responsible for supplying health insurance.


----------



## Sodbuster

milothecat said:


> So are you saying that you didn't get the ct scan the doc wanted because your insurance wouldn't pay?



 Yes, you are correct, I did not get the CT. The Insurance companies here have way too much control, it's my Dr who should be making the call, with a proper diagnosis  code, not the insurance company.


----------



## Sodbuster

bholler said:


> Yes of course.  That isn't what I am saying makes no sense.  What makes no sense is the idea that employers are responsible for supplying health insurance.



You are correct, employers are under no obligation to provide health care coverage, with the only exception being Obama care,thankfully  we've not had to deal with that,  Life insurance, long and short term disability, dental, vision are all benefits that are added to help draw in the best employees.


----------



## Jan Pijpelink

I might be lucky. I work at a company that has the following.
Full health care for both me and my spouse
Full dental for me and my spouse
Full vision for me and my spouse
Short term disability
Long term disability (unlimited)
Life (2 annual salaries for me)
Life for my spouse 50K

Company pays 90% of the premiums.


----------



## Ashful

bholler said:


> What makes no sense is the idea that employers are responsible for supplying health insurance.


They are not.  YOU are responsible for tour health insurance, just as you are responsible for your homeowners, auto, and life insurance.  Many employers choose to offer you health insurance as an additional benefit to your total compensation package, but until Obamacare, there was never any requirement for anyone to have health insurance as a stipulation on employment.  Employers choose to offer this benefit for several reasons, as it is a net savings to them, versus directly compensating the employees. 



SpaceBus said:


> What's the point of employer provided insurance if  you are too sick to work?


Are you assuming your employer will fire you if you get sick?  There are laws protecting you from that, at least in my state.  Also, if for some reason you choose not to go back to work during an illness, programs like COBRA allow you to remain on the employers group policy, at their group policy rate, out of your own pocket. 



mcdougy said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/long-term-care-homes-covid19-1.5556041
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like many Canadians like the govt run healthcare vs private


I think that is part familiarity, and part the news you watch.  Many Americans are terrified of gov’t run healthcare, likely for the same two reasons.  By a similar token, I’ve met many Europeans who think they have a 50/50% chance of being shot by us “gun-toting” Americans, on any given trip to the US.


----------



## SpaceBus

Jan Pijpelink said:


> I might be lucky. I work at a company that has the following.
> Full health care for both me and my spouse
> Full dental for me and my spouse
> Full vision for me and my spouse
> Short term disability
> Long term disability (unlimited)
> Life (2 annual salaries for me)
> Life for my spouse 50K
> 
> Company pays 90% of the premiums.


I've never met anyone who has worked for a non government employer with those kinds of benefits, so count yourself lucky.


----------



## bholler

Ashful said:


> They are not.  YOU are responsible for tour health insurance, just as you are responsible for your homeowners, auto, and life insurance.  Many employers choose to offer you health insurance as an additional benefit to your total compensation package, but until Obamacare, there was never any requirement for anyone to have health insurance as a stipulation on employment.  Employers choose to offer this benefit for several reasons, as it is a net savings to them, versus directly compensating the employees.
> 
> 
> Are you assuming your employer will fire you if you get sick?  There are laws protecting you from that, at least in my state.  Also, if for some reason you choose not to go back to work during an illness, programs like COBRA allow you to remain on the employers group policy, at their group policy rate, out of your own pocket.
> 
> 
> I think that is part familiarity, and part the news you watch.  Many Americans are terrified of gov’t run healthcare, likely for the same two reasons.  By a similar token, I’ve met many Europeans who think they have a 50/50% chance of being shot by us “gun-toting” Americans, on any given trip to the US.


Have you ever checked what it costs for a small company to provide healthcare to their employees?  It is not a net savings at all.


----------



## SpaceBus

Ashful said:


> They are not.  YOU are responsible for tour health insurance, just as YOU are responsible for your homeowners, auto, and life insurance.  Many employers choose to offer you health insurance as an additional benefit to your total compensation package, but until Obamacare, there was never any requirement for anyone to have health insurance as a stipulation on employment.  Employers choose to offer this benefit for several reasons, as it is a net savings to them, versus directly compensating the employees.
> 
> 
> Are you assuming your employer will fire you if you get sick?  There are laws protecting you from that, at least in my state.  Also, if for some reason you choose not to go back to work during an illness, programs like COBRA allow you to remain on the employers group policy, at their group policy rate, out of your own pocket.
> 
> 
> I think that is part familiarity, and part the news you watch.  Many Americans are terrified of gov’t run healthcare, likely for the same two reasons.  By a similar token, I’ve met many Europeans who think they have a 50/50% chance of being shot by us “gun-toting” Americans, on any given trip to the US.



No, I'm saying that you aren't paying into the company health insurance policy if you aren't working. Unless the employer offers a disability program then you aren't getting health insurance if you aren't working. How can one pay for COBRA if they are laid up and can't work? Why should someone be forced to choose between going to work during an illness and being able to feed their family or even see the doctor? This whole thing is broken, and nobody asked to be born into this world. We have no choice but to be here, so maybe we should all make the experience a bit more pleasant. Sometimes life will strike you down with an inexplicable illness and then you are disabled for life. I'm lucky that it happened to me while in the army, because most civilian employers would have left me high and dry. 


The US Military and most other government agencies offer tricare which is basically universal socialized medicine. Tricare Prime requires no out of pocket fees and most don't have to pay any premiums. As a retiree I can get this coverage at a mere $200 annually, but I would not be able to choose my provider. On Tricare Select I pay a bit of out of pocket cost (peanuts)to choose my provider and I don't have any premiums. Tricare is even handled by humana now, so I see it as only a matter of time until the Federal government institutes Tricare for all. With hospitals no longer operating for profit medical supply costs will plummet thus destroying the predatory insurance companies. All American would have access to medical care at all times resulting in healthier Americans with lower healthcare costs overall. Preventing chronic illness like Diabetes is far cheaper than treating it.


----------



## Ashful

bholler said:


> Have you ever checked what it costs for a small company to provide healthcare to their employees?  It is not a net savings at all.


Yes, actually.  My father and grandfather both owned small businesses when I was young, each just a handful of employees.  I was speaking more about medium size companies and up, as that's my world, but even small companies can benefit by purchasing their insurance thru associations.  My father used ASME, and I presently have some of my insruance thru IEEE.  Does CSIA offer group rates?

But the point was that an employer may be able to provide an agreeable level of coverage for an employee at a cost of $1000 per month, but it may cost that employee $1800 per month to purchase the same amount of coverage as an individual.  The employer could directly pay the employee the $1800 per month, and then get payroll taxed on top of that, or simply provide a group coverage plan at $1000 per month.  As an employer trying to attract the top talent in your field in a competitive job market (eg. WWII, the 1990's, or the last 3 years until six weeks ago), which would you choose?


----------



## mcdougy

US Drug Prices vs The World
					

Prescription drugs cost more in the U.S. than most anywhere else in the world. As a result, Americans are illegally importing drugs from other countries.




					www.drugwatch.com
				




Is this still how it is?


----------



## peakbagger

SpaceBus said:


> I've never met anyone who has worked for a non government employer with those kinds of benefits, so count yourself lucky.


Some companies like utilities still have great benefits, they include those costs in the ratebase. Other companies that depend on skilled workers have figured out the only way they can retain older skilled workers is to give them good benefits. My prior employer was a family owned firm that did very specialized engineering services, they had good benefits because the older workers needed them and appreciated them . Kids out of college think they dont need benefits as much and tend to move around to chase pay but once they start to grow up, get married and have kids the benefits start to win out.


----------



## paulnlee

peakbagger said:


> Some companies like utilities still have great benefits, they include those costs in the ratebase. Other companies that depend on skilled workers have figured out the only way they can retain older skilled workers is to give them good benefits. My prior employer was a family owned firm that did very specialized engineering services, they had good benefits because the older workers needed them and appreciated them . Kids out of college think they dont need benefits as much and tend to move around to chase pay but once they start to grow up, get married and have kids the benefits start to win out.


Yeah, my bennies were the same as Jan minus spouse life ins. with ma bell. When I got discharged had wife & daughter so that came first over wages. In fact pumped gas at nite to make up the difference needed.


----------



## bholler

paulnlee said:


> Yeah, my bennies were the same as Jan minus spouse life ins. with ma bell. When I got discharged had wife & daughter so that came first over wages. In fact pumped gas at nite to make up the difference needed.


And to me that is a big part of the problem.  People like to argue that social programs stifle entrepreneurship.  When in fact our current system makes it much harder to go out on your own and attract quality employees.  Especially in the beginning.


----------



## Ashful

bholler said:


> And to me that is a big part of the problem.  People like to argue that social programs stifle entrepreneurship.  When in fact our current system makes it much harder to go out on your own and attract quality employees.  Especially in the beginning.


hah, I read that prior post totally differently, admiring Paul for working the extra hours to get ahead.  I worked damn near every waking hour, and then some, in my 20’s and early 30’s before I had kids.  Wouldn’t be anywhere near where I am today, if I hadn’t.


----------



## peakbagger

BTW I went from good benefits to no benefits. Its highly unlikely I am going to be able to find a job with my speciality unless I want to move and my retirement horizon is just a few years. I live where most folks want to retire so I do consulting part time and do not plan to move. The company I work for is new, I negotiated a very reasonable weekly rate with 30% added to cover my benefits. I am writing checks to ACA for $700 a month for a high deductible health care plan so I can do a HSA and another $25 for bare bone dental.  I will mostly likely be paying that for 5 more years to make it to Medicare and then will have to pay extra for the Medicare B &C  plans (like almost everyone else).  I am single and always was getting the short end of the stick from companies with good benefits as I am single and have always been healthy and have a fairly healthy lifestyle. The companies outlay for an employee with a wife and kids and unhealthy lifestyle was a lot more yet I didnt get extra pay for the difference. My preference would be a "cafeteria" plan where I get a set benefit stipend and then choose my services and let me spend the savings.  When I shopped the ACA plans in my state the pricing was pretty simple. The extra cost for the gold versus a bronze plan was almost directly related to the the reduction in maximum out of pocket and deductibles. I just get the bronze plan and fully fund an HSA. If I dont use the services except for the preventative services, the HSA carries forward as long as I live. The HSA contribution is fully deductible and as long as its used for health care at some point in my life its tax free. I have the HSA invested in index funds and have enough to cover my insurance to when I qualify for medicare (assuming they dont move the goalposts).


----------



## bholler

Ashful said:


> hah, I read that prior post totally differently, admiring Paul for working the extra hours to get ahead.  I worked damn near every waking hour, and then some, in my 20’s and early 30’s before I had kids.  Wouldn’t be anywhere near where I am today, if I hadn’t.


My comment had nothing at all to do with his work ethic.  It has to do with our current healthcare system where heath insurance has gotten so expensive most people simply cannot afford it on their own.  Which means they need to take a job that offers them benifits.  And small companies don't get discounts on insurance for their employees meaning our current system discorages entrepreneurship.

This is even worse for people like me with a pre existing condition.  If my wife didn't have a job that provided us with health insurance I couldn't be self employed.  There is simply no way I could pay the premiums.


----------



## bholler

And yes I do strongly believe if everyone was paying for their insurance out of pocket personally insurance premiums would have never gotten as expensive as they have.  People simply couldn't or wouldn't pay it.


----------



## mcdougy

Are the health coverages a taxable benefit in the USA when payed by the employer? As in shown as income/partly at the end of the year


----------



## bholler

mcdougy said:


> Are the health coverages a taxable benefit in the USA when payed by the employer? As in shown as income/partly at the end of the year


No they are not taxable.


----------



## semipro

bholler said:


> It has to do with our current healthcare system where heath insurance has gotten so expensive most people simply cannot afford it on their own.


Or they can't afford to retire.  
My wife and I have enough set aside that we could probably comfortably retire if it were not for the cost of health care. 
I think that the lack of affordable health care keeps many working for too long when maybe they should step aside. 
I've been working hard since about the age of 12, paid my way through college, worked multiple jobs at once, and I've got enough hobbies and projects to keep me busy beyond my grave. 
Now would be a great time for me to retire if it weren't for health care considerations.


----------



## milothecat

sodbuster's story about not getting a ct scan when a dr. wanted it says it all about the us healthcare system.  It's more about the money than your well being. Say what you want about govt. run healthcare, but in Canada if a dr. thought it was prudent you got a ct scan for a potentially serious condition, you wouldn't wait six months for one.


----------



## semipro

Sodbuster said:


> I'm not sure that this fits in this discussion, but I had had to go the ER for chest pain, turned out to be benign. However on the CT scan, the Radiologist made note of a 5 MM nodule on my lower lung. The ER NP. recommended a follow up scan, and my primary Dr. agreed and ordered the test. Well, in steps BCBS of Michigan, and denied prior authorization, because the body part had been scanned within their 6 month window. My Dr. appealed the claim, but it was still denied.  So I will wait my 6 months, and ask my Dr. for a followup CT. She wanted the CT, because original one only showed the lower lung and not the entire lung.


i've heard/read that you can sometimes deal directly with imaging centers and pay much less out of pocket for these scans.  In many cases, a collective of physicians actually own the equipment and are perhaps guided by the Hippocratic oath to provide the service at a much lower price.  I realize this sounds naive but I played soccer with a physician/owner that confirmed this after one of our teammates needed a scan.


----------



## Sodbuster

semipro said:


> i've heard/read that you can sometimes deal directly with imaging centers and pay much less out of pocket for these scans.  In many cases, a collective of physicians actually own the equipment and are perhaps guided by the Hippocratic oath to provide the service at a much lower price.  I realize this sounds naive but I played soccer with a physician/owner that confirmed this after one of our teammates needed a scan.



Doesn't sound naive to me at all. My Dad's boss had his pilots license and he and his wife both flew down to Texas for a full body MRI every year, non Physician ordered.


----------



## Ashful

bholler said:


> My comment had nothing at all to do with his work ethic.  It has to do with our current healthcare system where heath insurance has gotten so expensive most people simply cannot afford it on their own.  Which means they need to take a job that offers them benifits.  And small companies don't get discounts on insurance for their employees meaning our current system discorages entrepreneurship.
> 
> This is even worse for people like me with a pre existing condition.  If my wife didn't have a job that provided us with health insurance I couldn't be self employed.  There is simply no way I could pay the premiums.


Amen, brother.  In total agreement with you, on these points.


----------



## peakbagger

bholler said:


> My comment had nothing at all to do with his work ethic.  It has to do with our current healthcare system where heath insurance has gotten so expensive most people simply cannot afford it on their own.  Which means they need to take a job that offers them benifits.  And small companies don't get discounts on insurance for their employees meaning our current system discorages entrepreneurship.
> 
> This is even worse for people like me with a pre existing condition.  If my wife didn't have a job that provided us with health insurance I couldn't be self employed.  There is simply no way I could pay the premiums.



I am confused with your contention that you would pay more for  insurance with a pre-existing condition. In the past that was true but since the ACA went on line several years ago one of the fundamental tenets of the ACA is that insurers can not charge more for pre-existing conditions. The only variable is age of insured.  The reason why the ACA insurance costs more in many areas is that people with pre-existing conditions that may be un-insurable end up with an ACA policy increasing the ACA risk pool costs while many healthy people skip it and hope they dont need insurance.   There was a mechanism in place to force everyone to buy insurance or pay an equivalent tax penalty but the congress gutted the teeth out of this part of the law.   Ideally if the risk pool was spread out the costs would drop.


----------



## bholler

peakbagger said:


> I am confused with your contention that you would pay more for  insurance with a pre-existing condition. In the past that was true but since the ACA went on line several years ago one of the fundamental tenets of the ACA is that insurers can not charge more for pre-existing conditions. The only variable is age of insured.  The reason why the ACA insurance costs more in many areas is that people with pre-existing conditions that may be un-insurable end up with an ACA policy increasing the ACA risk pool costs while many healthy people skip it and hope they dont need insurance.   There was a mechanism in place to force everyone to buy insurance or pay an equivalent tax penalty but the congress gutted the teeth out of this part of the law.   Ideally if the risk pool was spread out the costs would drop.


Someone needs to tell insurance companies that. Judging by the quotes I received a year and a half ago they don't seem to care about that


----------



## SpaceBus

Sodbuster said:


> Doesn't sound naive to me at all. My Dad's boss had his pilots license and he and his wife both flew down to Texas for a full body MRI every year, non Physician ordered.


There is something to be said about MRI vs CT. To be honest you might have been better off without the additional radiation exposure created by the CT.


----------



## SpaceBus

peakbagger said:


> I am confused with your contention that you would pay more for  insurance with a pre-existing condition. In the past that was true but since the ACA went on line several years ago one of the fundamental tenets of the ACA is that insurers can not charge more for pre-existing conditions. The only variable is age of insured.  The reason why the ACA insurance costs more in many areas is that people with pre-existing conditions that may be un-insurable end up with an ACA policy increasing the ACA risk pool costs while many healthy people skip it and hope they dont need insurance.   There was a mechanism in place to force everyone to buy insurance or pay an equivalent tax penalty but the congress gutted the teeth out of this part of the law.   Ideally if the risk pool was spread out the costs would drop.


Indeed, the ACA  insurance only works if everyone has it. Then could expand it into a TriCare style program.


----------



## SpaceBus

Ashful said:


> Amen, brother.  In total agreement with you, on these points.


If I had to get insurance outside of TriCare it would be impossible.


----------



## peakbagger

My dad was a 20 year airforce active/reservist retiree, He used to have Tricare but at some point he switched over to Martins Point Healthcare that got paid by the military to take care of his healthcare needs until he passed. It was great program, He rarely if ever had to go near the VA. They had special reps for vets.


----------



## SpaceBus

peakbagger said:


> My dad was a 20 year airforce active/reservist retiree, He used to have Tricare but at some point he switched over to Martins Point Healthcare that got paid by the military to take care of his healthcare needs until he passed. It was great program, He rarely if ever had to go near the VA. They had special reps for vets.


They keep sending me letters, but I really like my current plan. I could imagine in years past the Martins Point would be superior, especially since TriCare used to be limited to military treatment facilities.


----------



## mcdougy

What is the dollar amount of a healthplan that  does not require more out of pocket expenses when you need care?  Is there always additional expense when you need to go to the doctor?  Say you feel something is wrong, it leads to the eventual diagnosis of stomach cancer....your health plan kicks in, but at the end do you end up with a bill as well?


----------



## paulnlee

Probably doesn't belong here but the corona thread is closed. It took me several attempts to apply for the PPU here, finally got some $$ plus the $600.00 extra. No wonder no one want to go back to work.


----------



## paulnlee

mcdougy said:


> What is the dollar amount of a healthplan that  does not require more out of pocket expenses when you need care?  Is there always additional expense when you need to go to the doctor?  Say you feel something is wrong, it leads to the eventual diagnosis of stomach cancer....your health plan kicks in, but at the end do you end up with a bill as well?


Don't think there is one. Saw doc yesterday THEY required to renew script. Asked the same dumbass questions, took vitals and over. $20.00 co pay but will get another bill from them for at least $140.00 to cover what insurance didn't.


----------



## mcdougy

What is the yearly cost of your policy?


----------



## SpaceBus

paulnlee said:


> Probably doesn't belong here but the corona thread is closed. It took me several attempts to apply for the PPU here, finally got some $$ plus the $600.00 extra. No wonder no one want to go back to work.


My wife has been trying to get through. I think so far in Maine only non-Covid related claims are working, in other words only folks getting unemployment before this started.


----------



## Ashful

mcdougy said:


> What is the dollar amount of a healthplan that  does not require more out of pocket expenses when you need care?  Is there always additional expense when you need to go to the doctor?  Say you feel something is wrong, it leads to the eventual diagnosis of stomach cancer....your health plan kicks in, but at the end do you end up with a bill as well?


An insurance plan with zero deductible?  Does your homeowners or auto insurance have zero deductible?

No, there is not always an expense when we see a doctor, once you have hit your olan year deductible.  After reaching the individual or family deductible, you typically pay 0% to 20% of the bill on a good plan, depending on the type of service.


----------



## mcdougy

Ashful said:


> An insurance plan with zero deductible?  Does your homeowners or auto insurance have zero deductible?
> 
> No, there is not always an expense when we see a doctor, once you have hit your olan year deductible.  After reaching the individual or family deductible, you typically pay 0% to 20% of the bill on a good plan, depending on the type of service.


Ok, do you mind divulging what the cost of your plan is for your employer. And what are typical deductibles.
I'm just wondering how the stories of people owing large amounts of money for medical treatment happen?


----------



## Ashful

mcdougy said:


> Ok, do you mind divulging what the cost of your plan is for your employer. And what are typical deductibles.
> I'm just wondering how the stories of people owing large amounts of money for medical treatment happen?


Usually this happens when people fail to adequately protect themselves with an umbrella plan.  These plans are insanely inexpensive for the amount of coverage they provide, as they are only used for those rare cases when someone exceeds their plan maximums.  It doesn’t happen often, but those with an agenda love to hop all over these statistically rare examples.

But of course it’s easy for me to say how inexpensive they are, when I’m not struggling to put food on the table, I realize that.  Honestly, we should have a better social system for these cases, as they’re rare, and the public burden to benefit ratio would be low.

I wouldn't mind providing the amount my employer pays for my plan, but I don’t know the number off the top of my head, I will have to look it up when I’m in my office.


----------



## festerw

mcdougy said:


> Ok, do you mind divulging what the cost of your plan is for your employer. And what are typical deductibles.
> I'm just wondering how the stories of people owing large amounts of money for medical treatment happen?



Mine is I pay $150/month employer pays $1400 for PPO Savings Plan which mostly means I have to pay out of pocket for everything after the insurance discount. Fortunately I also get a $1200/year stipend into an HSA which mostly covers everything but we're (family of 3) fairly healthy and don't visit the doctor often.

All that applies up to my deductible of $3200, then I pay 10% of the insurance billing cost up to the out of pocket maximum of $7200.

So let's say yearly I pay roughly $2500/year for health insurance and my employer pays $18,000.

Note that it doesn't include vision or dental coverage.

So worst case I'd be out $10,000 which isn't insurmountable but would be difficult for someone else to pay on top of normal bills. Couple that with the fact something like 40% of Americans don't have $400 in savings and you've got an issue.


----------



## mcdougy

Fester, that's alot of money imo between you and your employer...would you consider your plan as top end, above average, common or minimal?


----------



## mcdougy

Do companies typically include eye and dental care as well?
Do the healthplans  include life insurance as well?


----------



## bholler

mcdougy said:


> Ok, do you mind divulging what the cost of your plan is for your employer. And what are typical deductibles.
> I'm just wondering how the stories of people owing large amounts of money for medical treatment happen?


Some plans also have a cap on total payout.


----------



## bholler

mcdougy said:


> Fester, that's alot of money imo between you and your employer...would you consider your plan as top end, above average, common or minimal?


Paying $150 per month is cheaper than average but not by allot.  My wife's plan is $180 bi weekly including vision and dental for family.  But ours has no deductible and pretty low copays.  Her benifits are fantastic.  Far better than any we have had before


----------



## mcdougy

Life and disability too bholler? What is copay? Sharing cost of medication?


----------



## bholler

mcdougy said:


> Life and disability too bholler? What is copay? Sharing cost of medication?


No life or disability included in that.  She has it but honestly I don't know how much it is.  Copays vary.  Office visits are $10.  Specialists are $20.  I think ER visit is $50.  Cheaper than any other plan we have had and no deductible or cap.   I will have to dog out the paperwork to find out what they contribute.

This is through a huge engineering company with just over 30000 employees world wide.


----------



## bholler

Her last job was about $140 bi weekly.  But with double the copays and $2500 deductible per person family deductible of $7500.  With them paying 80% after that is met.  That was in the architecture dept of a grocery store chain.


----------



## mcdougy

Right, are the drugs covered under the insurance plan?


----------



## bholler

mcdougy said:


> Right, are the drugs covered under the insurance plan?


Covered no some are discounted.  When she was on Lyrica that was anoth $300 of so a month.  But not all policies have any sort of prescription plan.  Her new job has a decent prescription plan.  But she is only using her medical marijuana card now it is controlling her pain much better with fewer side effects and less money


----------



## Jan Pijpelink

I pay $133 every 2 weeks with a family deductible of $1,125. That is health, dental and vision. $20 copay. We have not seen a family doctor in 20+ years. I see my cardiologist once every 18 months.


----------



## peakbagger

One of the concepts with co pays and deductibles is to tie the health care user into the cost for medical services. Prior to co pays, both the patient and the doctor tended to order tests and procedures "just in case". It didnt cost the consumer so they just went along with the doctor. Once the consumers  started to have to pay copays that tended to reduce the "just in case" testing. Most plans have a maximum  out of pocket cap per family and individual on a yearly basis. Once all the deductibles and co pays add up to the maximum out of pocket then the insurance pays everything.  The ACA plans completely cover some preventative care like yearly wellness checks (basic physical), preventative blood and other testing and a few other items, so people have no reason to avoid preventative health care.  

 The other big change several years ago was to introduce Heath Savings Accounts (HSA)s. Each individual can set aside pre tax a maximum amount of money per year to cover any out of pocket health expenses. If they do not spend it, they keep it for as long as they live until they need it or want to spend it. Any money in the account comes out tax free as long as its spent for health care. Linked to the HSA are high deductible health care plans,  they cost less but the insured has to spend some significant amount of money before the plans pay anything. That significant amount is generally about what the yearly HSA contribution covers.  Since the money is coming out of my pocket I have a big incentive to find the best deal for the services I need. There is still a maximum out of pocket. If someone is healthy and rarely uses medical services, its a better deal on a yearly basis. The big plus with the HSA is its the best individual tax shelter a typical tax payer can get. The money is tax deductible going in and as long as its spent on medical services someday, it comes out tax free including any growth. If there is money in the account when I pass it goes to my heirs (Its a lump sum taxable event so best idea is spend it befire they inherit it . 

The sad part is most people just leave the money sitting in a default bank chosen by their employer getting minimal interest. What they dont realize is HSAs are owned by the employee and are portable so they can put the HSAs in any plan they choose, frequently at lower cost than the default bank the company uses. Note; many companies kick in some money towards the HSA contribution and their payroll department prefer to keep it easy and send one check to one HSA firm. By law they have to send it to where the employee chooses but many payroll departments reportedly will fight it because its a bit of extra work for them.

There are several firms that run HSAs that allow the money to be invested in plans similar to a 401K. Thus it can become a totally taxfree investment plan, better than a Roth or IRA. When my former company rolled out the HSA option, a former coworker and I independently researched plans and picked the same well rated one. I have access to several Vanguard funds, the yearly fees are low .Obviously stocks go up and down but I am still up around 9% per year over a five year period even with the current market drop and fairly conservative investments. Rather than raid the HSA for normal medical expenses, most just pay out of pocket for the small stuff, the HSA is there are as medical emergency account. GIven its tax status, its probably one of the last account I will ever take money out of. Unfortunately once i go on medicare I dont think I can make yearly contributions, but in the 4 years before I get to Medicare I will be making contributions even if I am not working.  Worse case is its way of converting some IRAs to tax free accounts.  It will not be huge pot of money but it will be good reserve account.


----------



## Ashful

Everyone should read peakbagger’s last post at least twice. Three times for mcdougy.    j/k

My employer also pays the majority of my yearly copay into an HSA account, as well as dental and vision.  This is pretty standard, at least for professional salaried employees, but less so for hourly employees.


----------



## SpaceBus

So the "best" plans are wrapped up in a tax free savings account that can accumulate wealth but everyone is afraid to spend it? The cheapest option by far is TriCare for all, and then people don't have to put feeding their mouths above having a clean bill of health. Perhaps those "just in case" tests could have saved a life. I had a "just in case" test in the army and it saved mine. Same thing at the hospital last year.

Sounds like all non TriCare plans are just trash. I'm with the Canadian dude. I've also used the German and UK Healthcare a few times and they might have a better setup than TriCare even. Italy is definitely terrible, but that's a different issue than coverage.


----------



## maple1

Ashful said:


> An insurance plan with zero deductible?  Does your homeowners or auto insurance have zero deductible?
> 
> No, there is not always an expense when we see a doctor, once you have hit your olan year deductible.  After reaching the individual or family deductible, you typically pay 0% to 20% of the bill on a good plan, depending on the type of service.



I think zero deductible was a choice on our home & auto - but of course the premiums are higher.  Has been quite a while since we took it out so not 100% sure and I don't feel like digging things apart to look for papers. But I do know 100% for sure that my professional liability insurance has 0 deductible, I just got the renewal documents for that 2 days ago.

That seems quite often to be something overlooked & not factored in when some try to compare across borders. They only try to compare premiums vs. taxes paid. Which would be a way fuzzy exercise no matter what anyway. But trying to also factor in deductibles that would need paid, along with what is left that you personally pay percentage wise, gets way more fuzzy but also tips the scales further (albiet by an unknown amount). We have no deductibles to pay here or bills to settle.


----------



## festerw

mcdougy said:


> Fester, that's alot of money imo between you and your employer...would you consider your plan as top end, above average, common or minimal?



The amount I pay is probably about average. The plan itself honestly who knows, there are so many different copay/deductible options it would be difficult to narrow it down.



mcdougy said:


> Do companies typically include eye and dental care as well?
> Do the healthplans  include life insurance as well?



Vision and dental are offered also both through different carriers it's cheap enough to not really be much of a concern. The coverage percentages especially on dental are awful usually something like 40-50% on non preventive stuff.  My wife had 2 crowns done last year and the cost would have been around $1500 after insurance. Only nice part is you can double up on coverage so if you're married and both employers offer dental/vision you can get it though both, that's not an option for medical.

Life insurance isn't included but is also a separate carrier. I pay something like $10/month for 500k policy on all of us.



mcdougy said:


> Right, are the drugs covered under the insurance plan?



They're covered under a different section of my medical. I pay 10% of generic, 20% of preferred brand, 40% of non preferred brand. All cost there gets applied to the deductible.
Mine may not be the normal since it's through Aetna who owns CVS/Caremark.


----------



## Ashful

SpaceBus said:


> So the "best" plans are wrapped up in a tax free savings account that can accumulate wealth but everyone is afraid to spend it? .


What do you mean?  Why would you be afraid to spend it?  You can’t take it with you when you die, and you can’t use it for anything other than medical expenses, without paying penalties.  It is pre-tax money set aside by you or your employer specifically for medical expenses.  It is another way for employers to compensate employees with a lower tax burden on both parties, a good thing, overall.


----------



## peakbagger

BTW, not sure about other health systems but England rations their health care system.  Here is a long article that covers the details https://www.vox.com/2020/1/28/21074386/health-care-rationing-britain-nhs-nice-medicare-for-all Other systems ration the health care by limiting options.  A really big savings for nationalized systems is there are generally outright bans or severe limits on sueing for malpractice with nationalized programs. One US doctor I talked on once claimed his malpractice insurance was close to 6 figures and if he had more than a couple of claims he would have to go work for a government entity that didnt need malpractice insurance.  In a nationalized system, if the doctor has too many issues they just move him somewhere else in the system.  I live near the border and more than a few local doctors and dentists left the Canadian health care system , they can make much more money in the US.

There is no such thing as a free lunch but there is lot of waste in US systems. There are lots of intermediate profit making entities between the US health care system and consumer. Tricare for all is nice concept but the US budget is paying for it with no concern for profit and loss. The VA system is definitely not a poster child for well run system to the point where they had to hand off care to local providers who can bill at full rate.   Its is interesting that private entities like Martins Point (Maine and NH ) are private entities that can do if for less than a directly administered system.

A big thing many do not consider is that private insurance indirectly subsidizes Medicare and Medicaid. In both Medicare and Medicaid cases the government sets the rates they will pay for service substantially below the actual hospital cost. The hospitals then have to find a way of paying for this gap as well as paying to maintain services for the uninsured folks that show up at their doors. How the hospitals make up the difference is building it into their rates charged to insurance plans and seeking higher revenue patients. If you see a hospital advertising a specialty, odds are its a good revenue procedure, things like cardiac care, joint replacement and cancer care all have high revenue and that offsets the losses for the work they do at a loss. Switch to a Tricare or Meidcare for all and these hospital go bankrupt. its happening all over rural  America and is moving into the suburbs. No doubt CV-19 will take out a lot of shaky ones. The reality for many in rural states is they may have to travel several hours to get to hospital for major services. I know in my rural region all the hospitals are "Critical Care hospitals" that act as gateways to much larger hospitals near large populations centers. They have an emergency room to stabilize the patients and a helipad to ship patients out of town. They do have one or two specialties to try to offset the high percentage of uninsured  or people on government programs that pay less than costs. In the case of Eastern Maine the closest major hospital is in Bangor and they have been buying failed critical care hospitals who are bankrupt. Unfortunately the net result is Eastern Maine Medical system is also bankrupt and most options are they will become a critical care hospital feeding patients to southern Maine.

I know a few doctors and in off the record conversations they know the existing system is unsustainable they just hope they have their loans paid off and are retired before it comes tumbling down. A crisis like this may be the excuse to prop it up.  All major first world economies have the same issues, the populations are getting old and they will have increasingly tough times living up to promises they made.  One of the tricks is to limit citizenship and have large portion of the population not covered


----------



## tlc1976

We have the option of a HSA but whatever doesn’t get spent we lose at the end of the year.  And you have to designate what you set aside at the beginning of the year. You pay for the plan with every paycheck so if you lose your job for whatever reason you owe the rest of the year’s money right there. You used to be able to spend your remainder on OTC meds and things.  But everyone was doing that so they made it so not much of anything qualifies without a prescription. So I don’t use it. To get any worthwhile savings I will have to risk losing much more than I would save. Especially this year with anything but emergency procedures shut down.

I’m surprised to read about people who can keep what’s in their HSA. That would definitely be a nice way to put away tax free dollars without having to risk it in the stock market or whatever.


----------



## maple1

tlc1976 said:


> We have the option of a HSA but whatever doesn’t get spent we lose at the end of the year.  And you have to designate what you set aside at the beginning of the year. You pay for the plan with every paycheck so if you lose your job for whatever reason you owe the rest of the year’s money right there. You used to be able to spend your remainder on OTC meds and things.  But everyone was doing that so they made it so not much of anything qualifies without a prescription. So I don’t use it. To get any worthwhile savings I will have to risk losing much more than I would save. Especially this year with anything but emergency procedures shut down.



I'm not seeing any reason to sign up for something like that - unless I am missing something?


----------



## peakbagger

tlc1976 said:


> We have the option of a HSA but whatever doesn’t get spent we lose at the end of the year.  And you have to designate what you set aside at the beginning of the year. You pay for the plan with every paycheck so if you lose your job for whatever reason you owe the rest of the year’s money right there. You used to be able to spend your remainder on OTC meds and things.  But everyone was doing that so they made it so not much of anything qualifies without a prescription. So I don’t use it. To get any worthwhile savings I will have to risk losing much more than I would save. Especially this year with anything but emergency procedures shut down.
> 
> I’m surprised to read about people who can keep what’s in their HSA. That would definitely be a nice way to put away tax free dollars without having to risk it in the stock market or whatever.


You have your acronyms confused (easy to do ) . You have an "old school" Flexible Spending Account (FSA) not a HSA.  Nothing personal but In most cases it means that your company doesnt really care that much about employee benefits. FSAs are basically dinosaurs.  As I mentioned, someone in HR and payroll dont want the extra work.


----------



## tlc1976

maple1 said:


> I'm not seeing any reason to sign up for something like that - unless I am missing something?



The only reason anyone does is if they’re guaranteed a certain amount they will spend, and they’re in a position where their job is secure even when the ones lower on the ladder get laid off. Like say they got a big surgery lined up for next year that really needs to be done. You’ll save maybe 12%.


----------



## tlc1976

peakbagger said:


> You have your acronyms confused (easy to do ) . You have an "old school" Flexible Spending Account (FSA) not a HSA.  Nothing personal but In most cases it means that your company doesnt really care that much about employee benefits. FSAs are basically dinosaurs.  As I mentioned, someone in HR and payroll dont want the extra work.



Thank you for clarifying.


----------



## peakbagger

With an HSA its your money to deal with and you can put it under many administrators in addition to the one your company may choose. Note since my new company doesn't contribute and I pay for health insurance on my own through ACA my company is not involved at all. The key thing your company has to step up to is offering a high deductible heath care option. If they contribute to the HSA that is great but they dont have to but usually do as the high deductible plan costs them less.  

I use Heath Saving Administrators (Healthsavings.com), they are much lower fees than my prior companys plan and they offer Vanguard funds that are top ranked and they are no load. I have the choice of keeping all or some of the money in cash. I just picked a bond fund for 1/3, a mixed fund for 1/3 and and equity fund for the rest. The equity fund is obviously way down but the other funds offset it. 

Remember if there is a big health care expense in one year, excess medical expanses over 10% can still be deducted  for 2020. Not great and hope you dont need it but its there.


----------



## Ashful

maple1 said:


> I'm not seeing any reason to sign up for something like that - unless I am missing something?


The FSA is an old system, I really didn’t know anyone still used them.  The benefit is that they’re a tax shelter, so if you know roughly how much you spend on medications and doctors + dentists + other, you can set up your paycheck with holdings to automatically pull that amount out of your pay each month, and lower your taxable income.  If I recall, you could even use it for things like chiropractic care and massage or spas, so there were ways to use up the money, but it was a “use it or lose it” system.  The modern HSA has no such stipulation, it is your money, it never goes away, you are just limited to how much you can put into it each year.


----------



## festerw

One benefit of the FSA is usually the funds are available immediately while you "pay it off" over the year. Instead of the HSA where you can only use what you've contributed to the current date.


----------



## paulnlee

mcdougy said:


> What is the yearly cost of your policy?


After reading the posts since yesterday there's a lot of difference when still working and being "retired". I pay $200.00 +/month to Verizon and Medicare takes $3200.00 +/yearly from my social security.


----------



## Sodbuster

I wouldn't be so quick to call an FSA a dinosaur, we still have one, and my wife's employer has 51,000 employees. It's all pretax money, so you save on your taxes, the biggest problem is figuring out how much to take out each year. We have until, I believe it's March of the following year to use the money. I generally shoot for running out before the end of the year, rather than trying to pinch it at the end.


----------



## Ashful

Sodbuster said:


> I wouldn't be so quick to call an FSA a dinosaur, we still have one, and my wife's employer has 51,000 employees. It's all pretax money, so you save on your taxes, the biggest problem is figuring out how much to take out each year. We have until, I believe it's March of the following year to use the money. I generally shoot for running out before the end of the year, rather than trying to pinch it at the end.


Sorry, if you're referring to me.  I just thought most had switched over from FSA to HSA a few years ago, as my employer and my wife's both switched the same year.  I had assumed it was a wholesale change-over.


----------



## bholler

Ashful said:


> Sorry, if you're referring to me.  I just thought most had switched over from FSA to HSA a few years ago, as my employer and my wife's both switched the same year.  I had assumed it was a wholesale change-over.


My wife's previous employer has an fsa still.  Her current employer doesn't offer any because their medical benifits are good enough it isn't required.   Our system is just way to complicated with way to many companies taking their cut in-between the patient and healthcare provider.


----------



## Ashful

bholler said:


> My wife's previous employer has an fsa still.  Her current employer doesn't offer any because their medical benifits are good enough it isn't required.   Our system is just way to complicated with way to many companies taking their cut in-between the patient and healthcare provider.


Agreed, there's lot to not like about the implementation and operatio of our system.  But to bastardize an old quote from Winston Churchill, "it's the worst system in the world, except all the others."


----------



## bholler

Ashful said:


> Agreed, there's lot to not like about the implementation and operatio of our system.  But to bastardize an old quote from Winston Churchill, "it's the worst system in the world, except all the others."


That statement is true for those than can afford our system.  But for those who can't it isn't any better.  Unless you make so little you get govt provided benifits.  That discorages low income people from increasing their income above a certain level.


----------



## Sodbuster

Ashful said:


> Sorry, if you're referring to me.  I just thought most had switched over from FSA to HSA a few years ago, as my employer and my wife's both switched the same year.  I had assumed it was a wholesale change-over.



Sorry Ashful, I was referring to your post.  I need to learn to quote more often. No we're still stuck with the FSA, it makes it hard because some years we have more expenses  than others.


----------



## peakbagger

festerw said:


> One benefit of the FSA is usually the funds are available immediately while you "pay it off" over the year. Instead of the HSA where you can only use what you've contributed to the current date.


I forgot about that one. I knew of a few folks who cleaned out the amount early in the year before they left the company or was laid off. They didnt have to pay it back.


----------



## Sodbuster

peakbagger said:


> I forgot about that one. I knew of a few folks who cleaned out the amount early in the year before they left the company or was laid off. They didnt have to pay it back.



That's true, our entire balance is available January 1, even when we've made one payment. We can make bank of .00000045% on the money left unspent.


----------



## mcdougy

Wow, is all I can say.
 Seems like a very complicated/expensive system for the average Joe.  
It's one thing to be faced with illnesses, but to then have the added burden to wonder if your plan/finances are up to par as well must be horrible.
I appreciate everyone explaining it, as it's not a conversation I've ever had with someone that's part of the system.
I must say that it appears the system here is much more simple with far less out of pocket expenses.
A good thing about a public system is that the citizens hold the govt responsible, no matter what political party is at the helm. Some parties cut and others spend, so in general it evens out to reasonable care for a reasonable cost to every citizen.  I believe our average life expectancy is 4 or so more years than the USA, so something must be working out with our level care.
The biggest factor for me personally is that there is a level of comfort, knowing that everyone receives the same care no matter what.  Rich or poor you are taken care of with no bill ever and always.


----------



## festerw

mcdougy said:


> The biggest factor for me personally is that there is a level of comfort, knowing that everyone receives the same care no matter what.  Rich or poor you are taken care of with no bill ever and always.



I would like that type of system very much. Everything in ours is so convoluted trying to figure out what's "best" is nearly impossible.

I know government run systems aren't perfect but if we're already paying a fortune I'd rather have everyone be able to walk into a doctors office for a problem rather than wait until it's life or death and end up in emergency.


----------



## mcdougy

festerw said:


> I would like that type of system very much. Everything in ours is so convoluted trying to figure out what's "best" is nearly impossible.
> 
> I know government run systems aren't perfect but if we're already paying a fortune I'd rather have everyone be able to walk into a doctors office for a problem rather than wait until it's life or death and end up in emergency.


Exactly .....for the greater good of humanity.


----------



## Sodbuster

mcdougy said:


> Wow, is all I can say.
> Seems like a very complicated/expensive system for the average Joe.
> It's one thing to be faced with illnesses, but to then have the added burden to wonder if your plan/finances are up to par as well must be horrible.
> I appreciate everyone explaining it, as it's not a conversation I've ever had with someone that's part of the system.
> I must say that it appears the system here is much more simple with far less out of pocket expenses.
> A good thing about a public system is that the citizens hold the govt responsible, no matter what political party is at the helm. Some parties cut and others spend, so in general it evens out to reasonable care for a reasonable cost to every citizen.  I believe our average life expectancy is 4 or so more years than the USA, so something must be working out with our level care.
> The biggest factor for me personally is that there is a level of comfort, knowing that everyone receives the same care no matter what.  Rich or poor you are taken care of with no bill ever and always.



Wow, is all I can say, is if you can't comprehend FSA vs HSA. One you have to use in a specific time period, the other you own for life, super difficult. If Canada's and Englands health care systems are so great, and cutting edge, why does my wife, an MD see children flown from around the world for specific specialties to operate on?


----------



## maple1

Sodbuster said:


> Wow, is all I can say, is if you can't comprehend FSA vs HSA. One you have to use in a specific time period, the other you own for life, super difficult. If Canada's and Englands health care systems are so great, and cutting edge, why does my wife, an MD see children flown from around the world for specific specialties to operate on?



Beats me. But absolutely nobody I know has ever gone out of country for health care. There were a couple I don't  know that I had heard of that went south pursuing cancer miracles but in the end they sadly didn't work out.


----------



## bholler

Sodbuster said:


> Wow, is all I can say, is if you can't comprehend FSA vs HSA. One you have to use in a specific time period, the other you own for life, super difficult. If Canada's and Englands health care systems are so great, and cutting edge, why does my wife, an MD see children flown from around the world for specific specialties to operate on?


It isn't that he can't understand it.  It is that it is absurdly complicated.  Those people being flown here have the money to come here and pay for the procedure.  Our care isn't the problem it is the cost and complication involved in the financial side of it.


----------



## mcdougy

Sodbuster said:


> Wow, is all I can say, is if you can't comprehend FSA vs HSA. One you have to use in a specific time period, the other you own for life, super difficult. If Canada's and Englands health care systems are so great, and cutting edge, why does my wife, an MD see children flown from around the world for specific specialties to operate on?


Well probably for very specific and good reasons. I only know of one person who went for a cutting edge back surgery that he paid 14,000 dollars for at a specialized hospital, because the government here didn't find it yet.    Unfortunately it didn't work for him.
The FSA and HSA parts are easily understandable, but with all the options, deductible options, Co pay, etc etc etc etc tricare ,Medicaid ,medicare, limits on what some policies cover and others don't...... it's a complicated system. 
I just go the doctor and that's it.


----------



## mcdougy

@Sodbuster, 
Like most people, know that I think your wife is a saint for what she does. If your wondering if I might be playing a patriotic card here, I am not. That's for the more political, in general Canadians don't get too wound up about politics. We worry more about hockey and  curling.


----------



## Sodbuster

bholler said:


> It isn't that he can't understand it.  It is that it is absurdly complicated.  Those people being flown here have the money to come here and pay for the procedure.  Our care isn't the problem it is the cost and complication involved in the financial side of it.



Wrong, many are flown here using missions, and private funding. Royal Oak Beaumont hospital that has an ENT surgeon that people come from around the world to see. He has pioneered some procedures. Do you want to take the lowest bid on cleaning your chimney?


----------



## Sodbuster

mcdougy said:


> Well probably for very specific and good reasons. I only know of one person who went for a cutting edge back surgery that he paid 14,000 dollars for at a specialized hospital, because the government here didn't find it yet.    Unfortunately it didn't work for him.
> The FSA and HSA parts are easily understandable, but with all the options, deductible options, Co pay, etc etc etc etc tricare ,Medicaid ,medicare, limits on what some policies cover and others don't...... it's a complicated system.
> I just go the doctor and that's it.



All I can say about back surgery, and this is backed up by my wife, is DON"T.  All I've ever heard of is people going in for their 3rd or 4th back surgery. My BIL almost died from it from going septic.


----------



## bholler

Sodbuster said:


> Wrong, many are flown here using missions, and private funding. Royal Oak Beaumont hospital that has an ENT surgeon that people come from around the world to see. He has pioneered some procedures. Do you want to take the lowest bid on cleaning your chimney?


Ok but their procedures are paid for outright.  Again it isn't the quality of care that is the issue.  It is the financial side.  And it is a complete mess.


----------



## Sodbuster

bholler said:


> Ok but their procedures are paid for outright.  Again it isn't the quality of care that is the issue.  It is the financial side.  And it is a complete mess.



Where did you get that idea from?  The hospital bills at a lower rate, the professionals donate their time, including Dr's and Nurses. Every year my wife goes on a Dr's without borders trip, Guess what she gets paid? $0, In fact it costs money to send her over there.


----------



## bholler

Sodbuster said:


> Where did you get that idea from?  The hospital bills at a lower rate, the professionals donate their time, including Dr's and Nurses. Every year my wife goes on a Dr's without borders trip, Guess what she gets paid? $0, In fact it costs money to send her over there.


Ok but what does that have to do with our incredibly complicated and expensive system of medical insurance?   

Clearly our medical treatment  is fantastic here.  That isn't in question.  But that doesn't mean that the system as a whole works well.


----------



## Sodbuster

bholler said:


> Ok but what does that have to do with our incredibly complicated and expensive system of medical insurance?
> 
> Clearly our medical treatment  is fantastic here.  That isn't in question.  But that doesn't mean that the system as a whole works well.



OK, you conveniently several points:
1. 


bholler said:


> Ok but what does that have to do with our incredibly complicated and expensive system of medical insurance?
> 
> Clearly our medical treatment  is fantastic here.  That isn't in question.  But that doesn't mean that the system as a whole works well.



It's not complicated, unless you've taken an egg beater to your brain. If my 24 year old can figure it out, I would assume you could too.


----------



## bholler

Sodbuster said:


> OK, you conveniently several points:
> 1.
> 
> 
> It's not complicated, unless you've taken an egg beater to your brain. If my 24 year old can figure it out, I would assume you could too.


Excuse me???

I just don't get what the argument is you are trying to make here?


Do you actually think our system of health insurance coverage is working as well as it should be for all Americans?


----------



## Sodbuster

Never mind, I re-read your initial post and understand your frustrations.  You'd be stunned  at the waste that goes on behind the scenes at a hospital setting that add to our health care expenses.


----------



## bholler

Sodbuster said:


> Never mind, I re-read your initial post and understand your frustrations.  You'd be stunned  at the waste that goes on behind the scenes at a hospital setting that add to our health care expenses.


Absolutely.  Tons of waste at every stage adding cost every time.


----------



## mcdougy

When a person buys buses,airplanes, subways, bridges, lawn mowers,pipelines, buys bombs, ships, and tanks, give your money to the needy, pay for bailouts of bad businesses, helps line pockets of corrupt people, feed and house criminals,  etc etc etc.....why in the world wouldn't they get a good form of protecting and maintaining their health included.  The excuse of "govt can't run anything" is b.s., they run, dictate and manipulate every aspect of your life basically as it is, but tell you that healthcare is up to you is COMPLETE b.s.

Yes it is expensive to have a social healthcare system, but it has many great results as well. Maybe if a good chunk of money is going towards it, there will be less to waste on the some of the things your currently paying for?  We all give(without option) our money away, it's nice when you get something in return for something that benefits all.


----------



## Sodbuster

We just spent 2.2 Trillion on a bailout, and then another 486 Billion, I just believe for small businesses. It's so much money people are hard pressed to tell you where it went or what it did. Canada's yearly budget is roughly 30 Billion if the internet can be believed. Our system is just too big and clunky to have a government based model. There would be so much waste an fraud it would be unfathomable.


----------



## bholler

Sodbuster said:


> We just spent 2.2 Trillion on a bailout, and then another 486 Billion, I just believe for small businesses. It's so much money people are hard pressed to tell you where it went or what it did. Canada's yearly budget is roughly 30 Billion if the internet can be believed. Our system is just too big and clunky to have a government based model. There would be so much waste an fraud it would be unfathomable.


So our govt is to big to be able to do public healthcare???   Care to explain why that is?

I agree things need straightened out in our govt before we would be able to accomplish this.  But that needs to be done regardless.  The way our govt has been just is not sustainable with or without public healthcare.


----------



## Sodbuster

bholler said:


> So our govt is to big to be able to do public healthcare???   Care to explain why that is?
> 
> I agree things need straightened out in our govt before we would be able to accomplish this.  But that needs to be done regardless.  The way our govt has been just is not sustainable with or without public healthcare.



The reason behind my thinking is that I've yet to see anything that the government has taken over, or administered that has gotten leaner or more efficient, even though candidates from both sides of the aisle, run on that platform, I've yet to see it happen.  The military, while it does a great job, certainly would not be considered efficient. When you have a system that has so much room for abuse it's bound to happen.


----------



## bholler

Sodbuster said:


> The reason behind my thinking is that I've yet to see anything that the government has taken over, or administered that has gotten leaner or more efficient, even though candidates from both sides of the aisle, run on that platform, I've yet to see it happen.  The military, while it does a great job, certainly would not be considered efficient. When you have a system that has so much room for abuse it's bound to happen.


And you don't see that abuse in our current system every step of the way? 

 I constantly hear excuses why our system couldn't work with govt run healthcare.  But those people never offer any solutions to fix the major problems with our current system.


----------



## peakbagger

During the ACA deliberations there was a lot of money spent to keep the status quo and in private hands. I believe there has been third party reviews that show that medicare spends far less as percentage of total dollars on administration of the program compared to private insurance. Medicare would love to negotiate drug prices but well supported congressmen make sure that that obvious cost savings is off the table.

The interesting part is that conservative republicans have somehow gotten the folks most likely to benefit from health care reform to vote for the politicians who  are most opposed to reforming the system. Remember the "death panels" discussion? That was dreamed up and paid for by folks opposed to ACA. It was dreamed up to keep the poorly educated folks who have a tough time understanding a very complex system to vote for the status quo.  There are death panels by default already, those in poor rural areas just dont have access to good preventative care and die earlier or preventative diseases.  The death panels are the boards of rural hospitals who have to shut thier  hospitals as too much of their business is un and underinsured patients or underreimbursed Medicare or Medicaid patients.


----------



## begreen

I paid about $180/month for a family plan under the company Aetna plan. The company paid the lion's share. It was very comprehensive and included vision and dental. $10 copay for office visits and I think we had a $2500 deductible. But that was 7 yrs ago. Since retirement, we are now paying for my wife and I about $66/month for part D? which covers medical and vision, no copay for most work and very good prescription benefits too. but that doesn't include the medicare part A deduction which I'd have to look up. I have no complaints about the system, our annual wellness checkups are free and copays are cheap for other items and meds.


----------



## Sodbuster

bholler said:


> And you don't see that abuse in our current system every step of the way?
> 
> I constantly hear excuses why our system couldn't work with govt run healthcare.  But those people never offer any solutions to fix the major problems with our current system.



Well both parties have had chances and both failed to do so, gov't by it's own nature is inefficient.  Almost every candidate that runs says they are going to make gov't leaner and more transparent, and it just doesn't happen. In my personal opinion, it is that people in DC all have their own little kingdoms, and changes are fine, but don't touch mine.


peakbagger said:


> During the ACA deliberations there was a lot of money spent to keep the status quo and in private hands. I believe there has been third party reviews that show that medicare spends far less as percentage of total dollars on administration of the program compared to private insurance. Medicare would love to negotiate drug prices but well supported congressmen make sure that that obvious cost savings is off the table.
> 
> The interesting part is that conservative republicans have somehow gotten the folks most likely to benefit from health care reform to vote for the politicians who  are most opposed to reforming the system. Remember the "death panels" discussion? That was dreamed up and paid for by folks opposed to ACA. It was dreamed up to keep the poorly educated folks who have a tough time understanding a very complex system to vote for the status quo.  There are death panels by default already, those in poor rural areas just dont have access to good preventative care and die earlier or preventative diseases.  The death panels are the boards of rural hospitals who have to shut thier  hospitals as too much of their business is un and underinsured patients or underreimbursed Medicare or Medicaid patients.



Your use of the word "death panels" while first warned of by Republicans is a real thing. Dr's decide whether you are a candidate for a procedure not a family, with gov't controlled health care.   I have tried very hard to keep politics out of this conversation, just go back through my posts. Apparently Bholler lets it slide when it's from a liberal point of view. Our friend who holds dual citizenship in both the US and Canada has confirmed this. Her mother is suffering from a health condition, that could be fixed surgically and would extend her life for about 5 years, but she was deemed to old to have the procedure. She is healthy in every other way.


----------



## begreen

Works both ways. The attempts to dismantle the popular ACA have left millions without insurance. That is a death sentence for many.
And now we have the leaders telling us to be warriors, some thousands more are going to die, mostly the elderly and poor.


----------



## bholler

Sodbuster said:


> Well both parties have had chances and both failed to do so, gov't by it's own nature is inefficient.  Almost every candidate that runs says they are going to make gov't leaner and more transparent, and it just doesn't happen. In my personal opinion, it is that people in DC all have their own little kingdoms, and changes are fine, but don't touch mine.
> 
> 
> Your use of the word "death panels" while first warned of by Republicans is a real thing. Dr's decide whether you are a candidate for a procedure not a family, with gov't controlled health care.   I have tried very hard to keep politics out of this conversation, just go back through my posts. Apparently Bholler lets it slide when it's from a liberal point of view. Our friend who holds dual citizenship in both the US and Canada has confirmed this. Her mother is suffering from a health condition, that could be fixed surgically and would extend her life for about 5 years, but she was deemed to old to have the procedure. She is healthy in every other way.


I let some slide both ways as long as things stay civil and it doesn't get into partisan bashing.   But I really don't understand why making sure Americans have affordable access to heàlthcare needs to be political.  

I completely agree both parties are at fault for the dismal state our govt is in.  I have never said otherwise.  Personally my views definitely lean to the liberal side but that doesn't mean I don't see the value of conservative views as well.  And I am actually much more moderate on many points.  We need both sides working together if we ever want to move forward.


----------



## bholler

And yes of course doctor's choose whether a patient is a candidate for a certain procedure.  They are the ones who have the expertise to know.  Why should they be forced to perform procedures they don't believe are worthwhile?   That isn't death panels it is just a fact of life.  Sometimes there is nothing more that can be done to extend a life with in any meaningful way.  In the example of your friends mother she may be perfectly healthy for her age but that doesn't mean that the risks involved with the surgery don't outweigh the benifits.  Only her doctors know that.  You or I certainly don't.


----------



## Sodbuster

bholler said:


> And yes of course doctor's choose whether a patient is a candidate for a certain procedure.  They are the ones who have the expertise to know.  Why should they be forced to perform procedures they don't believe are worthwhile?   That isn't death panels it is just a fact of life.  Sometimes there is nothing more that can be done to extend a life with in any meaningful way.  In the example of your friends mother she may be perfectly healthy for her age but that doesn't mean that the risks involved with the surgery don't outweigh the benifits.  Only her doctors know that.  You or I certainly don't.



I think you missed my point, she was a physical candidate for surgery health wise, the gov't decided she wasn't worth the cost.  My wife is an MD and here in the states they do everything that is possible to save a life.  Whether is gives the patient another 5 years or 6 months, it's not up to them to play God. I hope your never laying on that hospital bed when they tell you that you are not a candidate for surgery because you are too old, or too young for that matter, my wife does a lot of Peds cases.


----------



## mcdougy

Sodbuster said:


> Well both parties have had chances and both failed to do so, gov't by it's own nature is inefficient.  Almost every candidate that runs says they are going to make gov't leaner and more transparent, and it just doesn't happen. In my personal opinion, it is that people in DC all have their own little kingdoms, and changes are fine, but don't touch mine.
> 
> 
> Your use of the word "death panels" while first warned of by Republicans is a real thing. Dr's decide whether you are a candidate for a procedure not a family, with gov't controlled health care.   I have tried very hard to keep politics out of this conversation, just go back through my posts. Apparently Bholler lets it slide when it's from a liberal point of view. Our friend who holds dual citizenship in both the US and Canada has confirmed this. Her mother is suffering from a health condition, that could be fixed surgically and would extend her life for about 5 years, but she was deemed to old to have the procedure. She is healthy in every other way.



In my experience it's not the case at all about a death panel here or denial of a surgery, it's the polar opposite. Your friend may have her own story, but the patient/family is given the choice wether you want to proceed, your told the possible difficulties and you choose. The only time they will reject a procedure is if they feel it will result in probable death.  If you or loved one is willing to proceed they will more than happily do ANYTHING. Maybe you don't realize that the doctors and surgeons have a license to practice and can only bill for procedures done. The remaining staff ,nurses etc... Get paid wether they're overun or no one in the place. Like yourself my experience is real as I cohabitate with a CCTC/ICU nurse who has referenced many times that she is helping a guinea pig. Lack of care is not usually the issue, it often becomes a case of overspending for the known results of mortality.  The 2 most common complaints in our system would be 1. Having to find a new family doctor once yours has retired. 2. Wait times in the E.R. and getting admitted a room.  They often have hospitals running at 100% to 110% capacity.


----------



## bholler

Sodbuster said:


> I think you missed my point, she was a physical candidate for surgery health wise, the gov't decided she wasn't worth the cost.  My wife is an MD and here in the states they do everything that is possible to save a life.  Whether is gives the patient another 5 years or 6 months, it's not up to them to play God. I hope your never laying on that hospital bed when they tell you that you are not a candidate for surgery because you are too old, or too young for that matter, my wife does a lot of Peds cases.


Doctors here make decisions that a patient isn't a good candidate for a procedure all the time.   And yes age absolutely enters into that.    The risk of complications is drastically higher for very young and very old patients.  And performing a high risk procedure could easily shorten a patient's life or reduce their quality of life.

Do you know for a fact that the govt determined she was not going to get that procedure or did her doctors?


----------



## Sodbuster

bholler said:


> Doctors here make decisions that a patient isn't a good candidate for a procedure all the time.   And yes age absolutely enters into that.   The risk of complications is drastically higher for very young and very old patients.  And performing a high risk procedure could easily shorten a patient's life or reduce their quality of life.
> 
> Do you know for a fact that the govt determined she was not going to get that procedure or did her doctors?



Yes I do, and you don't need to educate me on healthcare, my wife is an Anesthesiologist MD, so she's up to speed on the matter. Try telling the parent of a 3 year old that you're not going to extend their child's life by 3 years because  it's a waste of resources. How do you think we make advancements in healthcare? It's by trying new things, in hopes that is will prolong the patients life, but it all costs money. What if we never tried a heart bypass, saying too bad you're going to die. Pushing the bounds of medicine leads to breakthroughs.  Another breakthrough in medicine is infants with Hypoplastic Left Heart Syndrome, these infants mostly all died 30 years ago but now they are surviving into adulthood. If surgeons didn't push forward, all these infants would have been lost. Now infants around the world are saved due to the advancements in healthcare. With a socialistic health care system this type of research would have been deemed too expensive, try looking up who leads the world in medical advancements.


----------



## bholler

Sodbuster said:


> Yes I do, and you don't need to educate me on healthcare, my wife is an Anesthesiologist MD, so she's up to speed on the matter. Try telling the parent of a 3 year old that you're not going to extend their child's life by 3 years because  it's a waste of resources. How do you think we make advancements in healthcare? It's by trying new things, in hopes that is will prolong the patients life, but it all costs money. What if we never tried a heart bypass, saying too bad you're going to die. Pushing the bounds of medicine leads to breakthroughs.  Another breakthrough in medicine is infants with Hypoplastic Left Heart Syndrome, these infants mostly all died 30 years ago but now they are surviving into adulthood. If surgeons didn't push forward, all these infants would have been lost. Now infants around the world are saved due to the advancements in healthcare. With a socialistic health care system this type of research would have been deemed too expensive, try looking up who leads the world in medical advancements.


Who says socialist healthcare has to stifle innovation????  There is plenty of research done in countries with socialized healthcare.  

Where you in the meeting your friends mother had with her doctors?  Did they say it was a waste of recourses or did they say at your age we feel the risks out weigh the benifits?  

You seem to be making lots of assumtions which align with what certain media outlets say about what happens in countries with socialized healthcare.   But people who live in those systems really don't back up those claims.


----------



## bholler

Oh and how often are experimental procedures turned down by private insurance companies here?  You love to point out all the the potential problems that could come from socialised healthcare.  But completely ignore the problems many in our country are currently dealing with caused by our medical insurance system.


----------



## mcdougy

It's completely insane to think dollars outweigh life, it's never the case here.  If  dollars affected outcome/care  anytime I would think it happens far more frequently in a insurance system.  Space bus just mentioned not receiveing a MRI due to coverage not allowing 2 in a 6 month period?


----------



## maple1

Sodbuster said:


> I think you missed my point, she was a physical candidate for surgery health wise, the gov't decided she wasn't worth the cost.  My wife is an MD and here in the states they do everything that is possible to save a life.  Whether is gives the patient another 5 years or 6 months, it's not up to them to play God. I hope your never laying on that hospital bed when they tell you that you are not a candidate for surgery because you are too old, or too young for that matter, my wife does a lot of Peds cases.



I think you are somewhat misinformed. Our family has been though it. Friends have been through it. No God playing. If a procedure could have a positive outcome, it is done.


----------



## Sodbuster

bholler said:


> Oh and how often are experimental procedures turned down by private insurance companies here?  You love to point out all the the potential problems that could come from socialised healthcare.  But completely ignore the problems many in our country are currently dealing with caused by our medical insurance system.



Oh, and you are apparently an expert on everything that makes this world spin around, where is your medical degree from?  Most of these innovations come from teaching hospitals, tied to Universities that can absorb the cost of experimental health care, so private insurance plays no part in this.  It's amazing what 13 years of post high school education can teach you.


----------



## bholler

Sodbuster said:


> Oh, and you are apparently an expert on everything that makes this world spin around, where is your medical degree from?  Most of these innovations come from teaching hospitals, tied to Universities that can absorb the cost of experimental health care, so private insurance plays no part in this.  It's amazing what 13 years of post high school education can teach you.


I clearly said I am not an expert multiple times.   But you continually contradict yourself.  You say research couldn't happen because with socialised healthcare the procedures would never be paid for.  Then say most research is done by universities who pay for it and our private insurance doesn't pay for it.  So which is it?  Both things you claim that are completely contradictory cannot be true.


----------



## peakbagger

IMHO Ultimately it comes down to, there can not be unlimited medical resources and have an affordable health care system.  Someone or some group ultimately has to decide to maximize the return of dollars to minimize costs. If its not done rationally then its done through rationing access. I worked with a person who's dad was on a "death panel" in a US state 20 years ago. He was retired surgeon that met with a board to establish guidelines used to decide what levels of extraordinary care made sense. The reason why this state had this board was the cost of their healthcare was too expensive.

The statistics are pretty clear that the vast majority of medical dollars per capita go to folks in the last months of life. Much of this care is very profitable for the health care institutions which offset other losses to the facilities. Its not unusual for dementia patients to have bypasses and even joint replacements. There is rarely any independent review of quality of life post treatment. Advanced directives drawn up in advance if they are followed can mitigate some of this but in my recent experience as a health care proxy for two now  deceased elderly parents even with ADs in place and filed with their caregivers, the system tries to circumvent the ADs. Both parents were under hospice care at a nursing facility and even with hospice acting to support the instructions in the ADs there were attempts by well meaning individuals to circumvent them.  One thing I was not aware is that most elderly folks that end up in intensive care after a major medical procedure tend to have a short term symptoms of dementia that may take weeks or months to subside and in many cases those with dementia never recover. I experienced that with my mom, she went in with mild symptons after a broken hip and came out a changed person, she did recover somewhat after months but was far diminished at her best post surgery. The gerontologist for the facility warned me that this was quite normal.  Unfortunately most MDs are trained at save at all cost and let someone else worry about cost but ultimately at some point in the chain a value discussion will made be it formally or informally.

There was a fairly well vetted study based on a long term group of doctors that have been tracked since they were in school and are now nearing or in retirement. The doctors as a group tend to support very little extraordinary care to keep them alive into old age if they risk a diminished life quality. Most tend to support access to plenty of drugs for pain management. A fair share also tend to support access to assisted suicide. Unfortunately Americans, especially boomers tend to avoid discussion of death. They figure if they spend enough they can avoid it.


----------



## maple1

It would be a shame to lose another good thread to unfortunately worded postings.


----------



## Sodbuster

bholler said:


> I clearly said I am not an expert multiple times.   But you continually contradict yourself.  You say research couldn't happen because with socialised healthcare the procedures would never be paid for.  Then say most research is done by universities who pay for it and our private insurance doesn't pay for it.  So which is it?  Both things you claim that are completely contradictory cannot be true.





bholler said:


> Who says socialist healthcare has to stifle innovation????  There is plenty of research done in countries with socialized healthcare.
> 
> Where you in the meeting your friends mother had with her doctors?  Did they say it was a waste of recourses or did they say at your age we feel the risks out weigh the benifits?
> 
> You seem to be making lots of assumtions which align with what certain media outlets say about what happens in countries with socialized healthcare.   But people who live in those systems really don't back up those claims.



While other countries are gaining ground, the US leads the world in medical innovation, a simple google search shows that we, for the last 20 years or so have led the pack. Shouldn't the countries with 100% gov't (taxpayer) funding be leading the pack?






__





						who leads the world in medical innovation - Google Search
					





					www.google.com


----------



## bholler

Sodbuster said:


> While other countries are gaining ground, the US leads the world in medical innovation, a simple google search shows that we, for the last 20 years or so have led the pack. Shouldn't the countries with 100% gov't (taxpayer) funding be leading the pack?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> who leads the world in medical innovation - Google Search
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com


Still not following your argument.  Do universities fund the research or does the health insurance system fund it?  

There is no reason public heàlthcare would prevent research at all.


----------



## mcdougy

maple1 said:


> It would be a shame to lose another good thread to unfortunately worded postings.



True.
I've been asking alot of questions, and by no means am I trying to force my thoughts or insult  anyone. I am only speaking about my thoughts and EXPERIENCE with a socialized health system.  When I hear the EXPERIENCES (costly/ lack of coverage)  of people in the private system, as a person, I feel that it's really unfortunate. Therefore I will advocate that our social system seems like a much better service, as in for ALL.  I trust that nobody here is able to advocate that  leaving people without the ability to seek medical help is OK. Then add the out of pocket potential costs that I'm hearing  about and it makes a social system sound that much better.  Although I doubt my thoughts will change, I do realize and try to understand that people think otherwise. 

This leads me to possibly my last question of interest in trying to look for good points in one or the other systems..... Is there mental health coverages within the average medical health plans?


----------



## Sodbuster

bholler said:


> Still not following your argument.  Do universities fund the research or does the health insurance system fund it?
> 
> There is no reason public heàlthcare would prevent research at all.



True, but research is very expensive, with little or no payback unless a cure for something major is found, so most research would be done via private universities. Public healthcare would be better served treating those who truly need it, with proven treatments, not on research.


----------



## mcdougy

Sodbuster said:


> True, but research is very expensive, with little or no payback unless a cure for something major is found, so most research would be done via private universities. Public healthcare would be better served treating those who truly need it, with proven treatments, not on research.


Here that's the exact situation. Hospitals work with the schools. Tons of research and development come out of it, teaching hospitals are where the new procedures are tried and tested. Which I'm sure is a world wide situation not just a USA and Canada thing.


----------



## bholler

Sodbuster said:


> True, but research is very expensive, with little or no payback unless a cure for something major is found, so most research would be done via private universities. Public healthcare would be better served treating those who truly need it, with proven treatments, not on research.


Yes and that is bad why?

And is different than the way it's done here how?

The same universities would be doing the research here regardless of public or private health care


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## Sodbuster

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one fella's, It will eventually shake out one way or the other, and only time will tell which was the right choice. I am not a proponent of the gov't controlling more than they are constitutionally obligated to. How much competition does the DMV have, and you can see how that is run. I hope that all of you with mothers still with you have a happy time tomorrow. I know ours will be strange, since my wife has lung issues, we will be holding it in the garage with folding chairs and a kerosene heater to keep us warm.  All stay well and safe, and lets make this through this as a country, united.


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## mcdougy

Here is something positive from the hospital my wife works from a couple days ago.  at.https://london.ctvnews.ca/mobile/world-first-covid-19-dialysis-treatment-comes-from-canadian-research-team-doctors-say-1.4927659


----------



## begreen

Sodbuster said:


> True, but research is very expensive, with little or no payback unless a cure for something major is found, so most research would be done via private universities. Public healthcare would be better served treating those who truly need it, with proven treatments, not on research.


There are many diseases that we don't have a cure for, but we are getting much closer. Research is how we are get there. The puzzles of cancers, Alzheimers, heart disease, epilepsy, diabetes, etc. are getting solved via step by step by research. In the meantime treatments for some of these issues are almost barbaric. There is lots of payback for coming up with better treatments or cures for these diseases and many more. Often the steps are incremental, but overtime the progress is significant. Just look at what has happened since the human genome project. Yes, private universities do a lot of this research, but often those studies are funded by the NIH or other organizations.

I followed epilepsy research closely for over a decade and at times the leading research was coming out of Australia and then France. The US has also made some great breakthroughs, but one thing I noticed while attending forums and symposiums on this disease was that there was no "we're better than you, or our system is better than yours". All those doctors were dedicated to finding a solution and were generous in sharing information, research and results from nation to nation.


----------



## begreen

Sodbuster said:


> With a socialistic health care system this type of research would have been deemed too expensive, try looking up who leads the world in medical advancements.


Tried that and  found that for medical innovation:
The Global Innovation Index 2019 found that overall, “Switzerland is the world’s most-innovative country followed by Sweden, the United States of America (U.S.), the Netherlands and the United Kingdom (U.K.),” according to a World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO)








						Global Innovation Index 2019 Released, Focus On The Future Of Medical Innovation - Health Policy Watch
					

The Global Innovation Index 2019 was released today with an overarching theme of “Creating Healthy Lives – The Future of Medical Innovation."




					healthpolicy-watch.org


----------



## Sodbuster

begreen said:


> There are many diseases that we don't have a cure for, but we are getting much closer. Research is how we are get there. The puzzles of cancers, Alzheimers, heart disease, epilepsy, diabetes, etc. are getting solved via step by step by research. In the meantime treatments for some of these issues are almost barbaric. There is lots of payback for coming up with better treatments or cures for these diseases and many more. Often the steps are incremental, but overtime the progress is significant. Just look at what has happened since the human genome project. Yes, private universities do a lot of this research, but often those studies are funded by the NIH or other organizations.
> 
> I followed epilepsy research closely for over a decade and at times the leading research was coming out of Australia and then France. The US has also made some great breakthroughs, but one thing I noticed while attending forums and symposiums on this disease was that there was no "we're better than you, or our system is better than yours". All those doctors were dedicated to finding a solution and we generous in sharing information, research and results from nation to nation.



My daughter (a PICU) nurse noticed that her boyfriend was dropping weight like a stone, and he was not overweight. He was almost always thirsty, and would almost get cranky if he couldn't get a drink of water, he also ate like a horse. She called my wife and my wife advised her to get him in ASAP.  He had no access to his Primary Dr. due to COVID, so he had to go to the ER. They ran his blood work and his blood sugar level came back at 450 which is apparently quite high. They immediately put him on some medication and his results are improving every day. Shows you how fast something can creep up on you.


----------



## mcdougy

Sodbuster said:


> My daughter (a PICU) nurse noticed that her boyfriend was dropping weight like a stone, and he was not overweight. He was almost always thirsty, and would almost get cranky if he couldn't get a drink of water, he also ate like a horse. She called my wife and my wife advised her to get him in ASAP.  He had no access to his Primary Dr. due to COVID, so he had to go to the ER. They ran his blood work and his blood sugar level came back at 450 which is apparently quite high. They immediately put him on some medication and his results are improving every day. Shows you how fast something can creep up on you.


Well that's good they might be finding a solution for him. If he requires insulin he might want to come here for our govt negotiated prices. A bottle worth$ 250 in USA  is $23 in Canada for the exact same bottle.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/insulin-prices-united-states-canada-caravan-1.5195399


----------



## SpaceBus

Every time I type a response I delete it. All of you saying that government run health care doesn't work have never used it. The US military is almost entire socialist, especially the Healthcare. It absolutely works and almost everyone in the military is fit, healthy, and not suffering from chronic illness.


----------



## SpaceBus

This thread: a few men with mediocre health care benefits telling folks with even better benefits how good the mediocre benefits are.


----------



## maple1

I would also like to add that we could likely all agree that there probably isn't one perfect system in the world, and they all have things that could use improving in one way or the other. There is always a health care debate here around how we will keep affording it in the future and things that need fixing in the present.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

maple1 said:


> I would also like to add that we could likely all agree that there probably isn't one perfect system in the world, and they all have things that could use improving in one way or the other. There is always a health care debate here around how we will keep affording it in the future and things that need fixing in the present.


Plus 100 . Too many here who seem to drone on and on about how lousy america does everything. And how great things are in other countries. Be it Cars, Healthcare, Govt Ect .I never understood that mindset,the sport of home team bashing.  There is actually a term for that .Oikophobia


----------



## Seasoned Oak

SpaceBus said:


> This thread: a few men with mediocre health care benefits telling folks with even better benefits how good the mediocre benefits are.


So this means that all are quite fortunate. A good problem to have.


----------



## bholler

Seasoned Oak said:


> Plus 100 . Too many here who seem to drone on and on about how lousy america does everything. And how great things are in other countries. I never understood that mindset,the sport of home team bashing.  There is actually a term for that .Oikophobia


There is nothing wrong with recognizing where we fall short.   Acknowledging that we have areas where we need to improve is not saying everything here is lousy.


----------



## bholler

Seasoned Oak said:


> So this means that all are quite fortunate. A good problem to have.


Yes we are all quite fortunate unless you are one of the people that is not fortunate.  Absolutely there is a much higher percentage of fortunate people here in the us than in many other places.  But you really can't say we are all fortunate.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

bholler said:


> But you really can't say we are all fortunate.


I think we are. Those that cant afford it get it free, how much more can be done.  You can always
trim around the edges  of even a perfect system. And we bring a lot of health problems on ourselves ,cant blame anyone else for that.  Covid may take 100000 to 150000 this yr.   Cigarettes will take 500000 to 600000 this yr alone.  Completely preventable.


----------



## bholler

Seasoned Oak said:


> I think we are. Those that cant afford it get it free, how much more can be done.  You can always
> trim around the edges  of even a perfect system. And we bring a lot of health problems on ourselves ,cant blame anyone else for that.


Those is the middle are not fortunate.  They make to much to get it for free but not enough to afford decent healthcare.  Which means if something happens they will be paying for it for a very very long time.  Believe me we were there.  Making 55 to 60k between the two of us.  Paying about 8k for our insurance and then easily paying another 10 to 15k ontop of that out of pocket.  That 60k is pretty good for this area.  But when you take 20k out of it just for medical care it really isn't much.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

As long as they get the HC which possibly saved their life the system worked. We cant insulate every person in the country from having to pay for HC, sometimes pay a lot. HC is expensive we all have to pay for it. Excuse me for trying to point out the good here and how supremely fortunate we all are to be living under the system we have, with all its flaws . Including those who can only find the bad in it.


----------



## bholler

Seasoned Oak said:


> As long as they get the HC which possibly saved their life the system worked. We cant insulate every person in the country from having to pay for HC, sometimes pay a lot. HC is expensive we all have to pay for it. Excuse me for trying to point out the good here and how supremely fortunate we all are to be living under the system we have, with all its flaws . Including those who can only find the bad in it.


I have repeatedly pointed out that our quality of care is fantastic.  And that for the many who have access to it without going broke the system works very well.  I don't see why you take issue with recognizing the problems and wanting to work on them.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

bholler said:


> Paying about 8k for our insurance and then easily paying another 10 to 15k ontop of that out of pocket.  That 60k is pretty good for this area.  But when you take 20k out of it just for medical care it really isn't much.


Seems like all your problems are with insurance companies. But also that much out of pocket  must be a lot of HC in a single year.
Most likely if you were paying cash  you would have been looking at $100000 or more in medical bills. So could have been worse? I didnt have any kind of HC insurance most of my life being self employed and paid in cash (over time).


----------



## bholler

Seasoned Oak said:


> Seems like all your problems are with insurance companies. But also that much out of pocket  must be a lot of HC in a single year.
> Most likely if you were paying cash  you would have been looking at 100000 or more in medical bills. So could have been worse? I didnt have and kind of HC insurance most of my life being self employed and paid in cash (over time).


Well that plan which was about 8k a year had a 2500 per person and 7500 family deductible.  One year was our second pregnancy and birth.  That triggered my wife' fibromyalgia and she has been trying to control cronic pain ever since.  I needed shoulder surgery the next year and knee surgery the next.  Add in relatively normal medical care for the kids.  $300 a month for Lyrica for my wife and it didn't leave us much to live on.  It took us many years to pay off the accumulated debt.  So yes I have a problem with insurance companies who we are paying to cover our medical expenses making massive profits and paying out about 12% of what we paid in.  Over those 3 years


----------



## Seasoned Oak

IV always felt Insurance companies should not be allowed anywhere near HC , but that is a whole other subject i guess. One of the problems with ACA  is the windfall to insurance companies. All our local hospitals and clinics have been gobbled up by Geisinger seems like they are buying up the whole state.


----------



## bholler

Seasoned Oak said:


> IV always felt Insurance companies should not be allowed anywhere near HC , but that is a whole other subject i guess.


I agree which is my whole point here.   But the cost of medical care has gone up so drastically it is hard to afford it without decent health insurance.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

Oh i wouldnt try to go it uninsured at my age anymore. I do feel fortunate that the income limits are pretty high with ACA.  I certainly could not pay $2400 a month full freight for HC insurance for 2 adults. Id be back to self pay . But it will be Medicare in 2 yrs.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

bholler said:


> But the cost of medical care has gone up so drastically it is hard to afford it without decent health insurance.


I remember paying $300 a month for my wife for a good private plan (Geisinger plan)in 2006 which covered all expenses, No copay, no deductibles,  for the birth my youngest son,who was a whopping 3lbs at birth and fell to 2lbs 14 oz while in the hospital in an incubater. The hospital also supplied a free lobster dinner for both parents.   My have times changed .


----------



## bholler

Seasoned Oak said:


> Oh i wouldnt try to go it uninsured at my age anymore. I do feel fortunate that the income limits are pretty high with ACA.  I certainly could not pay $2400 a month full freight for HC insurance for 2 adults. Id be back to self pay . But it will be Medicare in 2 yrs.


Things get a bit distorted because I was arguing against a view point that our system is far better than any other out there.  There is without a doubt allot of good about our medical system and in some ways it is the best.  But there are lots of areas mainly in the financial side of things where things could be much better.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

bholler said:


> Things get a bit distorted because I was arguing against a view point that our system is far better than any other out there.


Dont sweat it , my original comment was not about anyone or anyones particular post but just the overall negative tone in general in the forums. And not just about HC.  Also in the discussions about cars and trucks, imports and domestics, govt issues. I guess im an optimist for america, ill root for the home team every time. Not that we are the best at everything ,but we can be when we dont get sidetracked.


----------



## bholler

Seasoned Oak said:


> Dont sweat it , my original comment was not about anyone or anyones particular post but just the overall negative tone in general in the forums. And not just about HC.  Also in the discussions about cars and trucks, imports and domestics, govt issues. I guess im an optimist for america, ill root for the home team every time. Not that we are the best at everything ,but we can be when we dont get sidetracked.


Well said


----------



## mcdougy

Seasoned Oak said:


> As long as they get the HC which possibly saved their life the system worked. We cant insulate every person in the country from having to pay for HC, sometimes pay a lot. HC is expensive we all have to pay for it. Excuse me for trying to point out the good here and how supremely fortunate we all are to be living under the system we have, with all its flaws . Including those who can only find the bad in it.


The pay alot part can be extinguished with a social system. Everyone pays their fair portion based on income. 
Bhollers story of having to fork out close to a third of his household income is horrible imo and I doubt it's all that unusual. Money like that is far better off saved for education funds or paying off existing debt.  It may sound utopian to some but social healthcare works.  It sounds as if  America isn't all that far off of it, if I'm understanding that many 65 and older go on a program that sounds close to a financial worry free system. Not everyone is going to have jobs that can supply private worry free care, there simply isn't enough of those jobs  for everyone.


----------



## paulnlee

bholler said:


> Things get a bit distorted because I was arguing against a view point that our system is far better than any other out there.  There is without a doubt allot of good about our medical system and in some ways it is the best.  But there are lots of areas mainly in the financial side of things where things could be much better.


So how you would recommend improvement on the financial side?


----------



## bholler

paulnlee said:


> So how you would recommend improvement on the financial side?


Get rid of the multiple layers of companies making massive profits between the patient and the doctor. 

The only way I know to do that is with a single payer system.  But I am open to any other options that would work.  But I have yet to hear any.    What ideas do you have to improve it?


----------



## begreen

Seasoned Oak said:


> I think we are. Those that cant afford it get it free, how much more can be done.  You can always
> trim around the edges  of even a perfect system. And we bring a lot of health problems on ourselves ,cant blame anyone else for that.  Covid may take 100000 to 150000 this yr.   Cigarettes will take 500000 to 600000 this yr alone.  Completely preventable.


Covid will reach those numbers in months. Cigarettes in decades. Covid is exceptionally contagious. Cigarettes are not.  It's not the best analogy, a different issue. And folks that can't afford it are not getting it for free. Often they are told to stay at home until it gets serious, then they have to rely on public transport, which often has shut down these days. By then it's too late.  If the system was working well we wouldn't have the very high death rate from this disease amongst the poor.









						'It's gone haywire': When COVID-19 arrived in rural America
					

DAWSON, Ga. (AP) — The reverend approached the makeshift pulpit and asked the Lord to help him make some sense of the scene before him: two caskets, side by side, in a small-town cemetery busier now than ever before...




					apnews.com


----------



## bholler

mcdougy said:


> The pay alot part can be extinguished with a social system. Everyone pays their fair portion based on income.
> Bhollers story of having to fork out close to a third of his household income is horrible imo and I doubt it's all that unusual. Money like that is far better off saved for education funds or paying off existing debt.  It may sound utopian to some but social healthcare works.  It sounds as if  America isn't all that far off of it, if I'm understanding that many 65 and older go on a program that sounds close to a financial worry free system. Not everyone is going to have jobs that can supply private worry free care, there simply isn't enough of those jobs  for everyone.


Luckily for us she was recruited by her current employer who offers far better medical benifits at a lower price.  So we are in a much better spot but there are many still in the situation we were in.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

begreen said:


> Covid will reach those numbers in months. Cigarettes in decades.


That was the yearly number. One source put it at 480000  another  600000 per year. Every year.  And another 41,000 yr. from second  hand smoke. Some big numbers for something thats so easily prevented. But yes it usually takes many yrs start to finish.
The regular flu took 80000 last yr. Many of those did not get vaccinated.  Hard to get numbers of the % vac.





						Fast Facts
					

See the fast facts regarding smoking and tobacco use.




					www.cdc.gov
				





begreen said:


> . And folks that can't afford it are not getting it for free.


Explain?  If  not, we are spending a lot of money for medicaid (600B)for just that purpose.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

mcdougy said:


> , if I'm understanding that many 65 and older go on a program that sounds close to a financial worry free system.


From what i hear from friends on Medicare its not exactly a financially worry free system .Lots of additional cost to pay either for insurance to cover your 20% otherwise your paying out of pocket to cover that. Or having deductions from what may be a small SS check making it that much smaller. Im 2 yrs from that so ill be looking into it soon. Possibly why some cant stop working at 65.


----------



## SidecarFlip

Between Medicare and our high option Federal Employees BC, we pay basically nothing except a 5 buck scrip co pay on non generics.  Of course the high option BC is 650 a month.  We use the heck out of it too.  It has eyecare and dental as well.


----------



## SidecarFlip

begreen said:


> Covid will reach those numbers in months. Cigarettes in decades. Covid is exceptionally contagious. Cigarettes are not.  It's not the best analogy, a different issue. And folks that can't afford it are not getting it for free. Often they are told to stay at home until it gets serious, then they have to rely on public transport, which often has shut down these days. By then it's too late.  If the system was working well we wouldn't have the very high death rate from this disease amongst the poor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'It's gone haywire': When COVID-19 arrived in rural America
> 
> 
> DAWSON, Ga. (AP) — The reverend approached the makeshift pulpit and asked the Lord to help him make some sense of the scene before him: two caskets, side by side, in a small-town cemetery busier now than ever before...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apnews.com




Just look at Metro Detroit if you want to see how Covid impacts the poor.  Scary situation and it's about to get much worse with the relaxation of social distancing measures and workers going back to work.  It's still out there, just waiting for a host.

I understand both sides of the coin.  You cannot have any economy with no one working and the government bleeding money like a stuck pig but on the other hand, allowing things to return to 'somewhat normal' will allow people to forget about Covid until it bites them.  People today have very short memories.

I see how well 'normalization' is working in South Korea.  New infections are going through the roof..

My wife and I will continue to practice social distancing, wear masks and avoid others as much as possible.  You never know who is asymptomatic, I don't want Covid, just like I don't want the common flu.

I dread the very thought of expiring with a tube down my throat or surgically implanted in my windpipe, drowning in my own bodily fluids, all alone in some hospital.

All of us expire sometime, life isn't finite but I don't want to go that way.


----------



## SidecarFlip

Seasoned Oak said:


> That was the yearly number. One source put it at 480000  another  600000 per year. Every year.  And another 41,000 yr. from second  hand smoke. Some big numbers for something thats so easily prevented. But yes it usually takes many yrs start to finish.
> The regular flu took 80000 last yr. Many of those did not get vaccinated.  Hard to get numbers of the % vac.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fast Facts
> 
> 
> See the fast facts regarding smoking and tobacco use.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Explain?  If  not, we are spending a lot of money for medicaid (600B)for just that purpose.




Problem with the influenza vaccine is, it's hit and miss.  It's never 100% effective because the flu mutates every year.  I have a bad feeling that Covid will do the same.  I see it's mutated already into a strain that impacts children.

Heck of a population control agent.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

SidecarFlip said:


> Problem with the influenza vaccine is, it's hit and miss.  It's never 100% effective because the flu mutates every year.


Iv had very good luck with the shot for about 15yrs. Although iv had a weird very mild flu like spell that lasted several weeks
in Feb, not normal. Im going to ask to get the antibody test when i get my annual this week.  If iv already had this thing it would be a huge load off to know. Would save a  lot of stress.


----------



## begreen

My wife and I have only had a flu shot a couple of times in the past decade. Have not had the flu regardless in a very long time. I had some terrible symptoms a couple years ago, constant cough, 2 month old sore throat, mega sneezing  that triggered serious nerve pain in my right thigh. Went to a new doc and he took me off the blood pressure meds  (valsartan) and put me on something completely different (amlopidine). Within a month all symptoms disappeared and have not returned.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

begreen said:


> My wife and I have only had a flu shot a couple of times in the past decade.


You may be taking a huge risk there.  Sounds like that last bout could have turned fatal if it was a little worse. 2 months is a long time to suffer.  Isn't  your Dr recommending the shot?  After 60 the regular flu is nothing to mess with.


----------



## SpaceBus

SidecarFlip said:


> Problem with the influenza vaccine is, it's hit and miss.  It's never 100% effective because the flu mutates every year.  I have a bad feeling that Covid will do the same.  I see it's mutated already into a strain that impacts children.
> 
> Heck of a population control agent.


Hardly a population control method. I also find it unlikely it just now started to affect children. This was probably happening the whole time but the data is so incomplete. There are less than six months of study on this novel virus.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

SpaceBus said:


> Hardly a population control method. I also find it unlikely it just now started to affect children. This was probably happening the whole time but the data is so incomplete. There are less than six months of study on this novel virus.


Even if the shot was only 10% effective id still get it. 10% could be the difference between life and death.


----------



## peakbagger

Anyone with kids and child care usually have flu shots as child care centers are generally breeding grounds. Anyone who routinely travels tends to have flu shots.  In many cases with the flu, the shot may not be 100% effective but it normally reduces the impact.


----------



## SpaceBus

I'm not advocating against a flu shot. I'm just saying that population control/overpopulation is BS and definitely has nothing to do with healthcare.


----------



## Sodbuster

My wife has to get the flu shot every year in order to do her job. She can refuse, but then has to wear a mask 100% of the time. She makes sure to get the single dose version so it is Thimerosal free.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

Benefits of Flu Vaccination
					

Learn more about the benefits of flu vaccination.




					www.cdc.gov


----------



## paulnlee

I'm 76, never had a flu shot, never had the flu. Must be either all the supplements I take or the Bud Lite


----------



## bholler

paulnlee said:


> I'm 76, never had a flu shot, never had the flu. Must be either all the supplements I take or the Bud Lite


So no ideas to improve things I take it?


----------



## johneh

paulnlee said:


> I'm 76, never had a flu shot, never had the flu. Must be either all the supplements I take or the Bud Lite


I'm 71 Had the shot once doctor insisted. First time and last time I have ever had the flu
But I think it is the single malt snow snake medication I take Keeps it away


----------



## Seasoned Oak

paulnlee said:


> I'm 76, never had a flu shot, never had the flu. Must be either all the supplements I take or the Bud Lite


Definitely NOT the Bud lite.


----------



## bholler

Seasoned Oak said:


> Definitely NOT the Bud lite.


Well it is pretty much just water.   And that's good for you


----------



## Sodbuster

I have a neighbor down the road, an 81 year old farmer. Hasn't been to the Dr. since his physical for the Korean war. Healthy as can be, go figure. He may have all kinds of ailments but they haven't killed him in 81 years so go figure.


----------



## begreen

Seasoned Oak said:


> You may be taking a huge risk there.  Sounds like that last bout could have turned fatal if it was a little worse. 2 months is a long time to suffer.  Isn't  your Dr recommending the shot?  After 60 the regular flu is nothing to mess with.


That bout had absolutely nothing to do with the flu. It was in the middle of the summer and was a reaction to the medication.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

So far weve been lucky. Just 3 Covid positives in our town of 10000, all mild cases no hospitalization,according ,to my doctor. Lots of elderly housing and nursing homes here too. The whole county has just 125 cases ,no deaths.  My doctor ordered an antibody test today. Should know soon if iv been exposed.


----------



## Sodbuster

Interesting point about insurance companies controlling health care. As an example  I went to the ER for chest pain, came back benign, everything was fine. However the NP handling my care noticed a 5mm spot on my lung. His opinion was that I should get a full CT due to the fact that they only scanned the abdomen, and only scanned the lower part of my lungs. My personal Dr. agreed and ordered the test. It was denied by Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan, because they only cover the scan of one organ every 6 months. WTF, they missed a whole part of my my lung. I'll patiently wait my 6 months, and then ask her to order another scan. What a waste of time and money, CT's are just not that expensive any more.


----------



## bholler

I just have to say to everyone here how grateful I am that we can have discussions like this here like adults and not end up with childish insults.  So I have to say thanyou.  And yes I am certainly more liberal than some of you if you ever feel I am being unfair in that regard please feel free to pm me and call me out on it.   We really try to keep politics out of this site but it is inevitable in discussions like this. 

Again thanks guys for keeping it civil.


----------



## mcdougy

Sodbuster said:


> Interesting point about insurance companies controlling health care. As an example  I went to the ER for chest pain, came back benign, everything was fine. However the NP handling my care noticed a 5mm spot on my lung. His opinion was that I should get a full CT due to the fact that they only scanned the abdomen, and only scanned the lower part of my lungs. My personal Dr. agreed and ordered the test. It was denied by Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan, because they only cover the scan of one organ every 6 months. WTF, they missed a whole part of my my lung. I'll patiently wait my 6 months, and then ask her to order another scan. What a waste of time and money, CT's are just not that expensive any more.


This is ridiculous with potential danger of your life. What/who will benefit from you waiting? I understand the unnecessary exposure to organs from x-ray and ct scan in some situations, but an MRI? Something is wrong, this is my perspective as to why the usa system needs a major overhaul. I've never heard that story from anyone here of a min/max system.


----------



## paulnlee

Chest pain or  discomfort = stress test in my neck of the woods. Saved my a$$, no ER involved


----------



## johneh

Racing heart -ER room-helicopter to Ottawa heart institute
4 hours later on the table *ablation* Surgery and pacemaker
6hrs later home total cost 0  Total time from ER to home again
16 hours
Health care in Canada


----------



## mcdougy

johneh said:


> Racing heart -ER room-helicopter to Ottawa heart institute
> 4 hours later on the table *ablation* Surgery and pacemaker
> 6hrs later home total cost 0  Total time from ER to home again
> 16 hours
> Health care in Canada



That's great it worked out so well for you, ...... What sort of bill were you expecting? ??

Everyone has the same available treatment. No middleman system can work well.


----------



## johneh

mcdougy said:


> That's great it worked out so well for you, ...... What sort of bill were you expecting? ??
> 
> Everyone has the same available treatment. No middleman system can work well.


Mcdougy , I also live in Ontario 65 K southwest of Ottawa 
Just showing how fast it can work here if it is an Emergency
Yes I was lucky that the ER doc at the Perth hospital was also
 my family doctor and knew immediately what was wrong. 
Called Ottawa  who were waiting for me 2 quick tests and 
I had wires stuck in my leg heading for my heart and then a 
pacemaker. Sent home that night . Now waiting for this
 pandemic to settle down so I can get a valve replaced not 
a big rush  apparently not that bad


----------



## Jan Pijpelink

I have Cardiomyopathy with obstruction (genetic). In 2004 at a local NJ hospital ICD implanted $198,000
In 2006 went to Cleveland Clinic. Obstruction removed, valve shortened, both lower chambers frozen with liquid Argon at -300 C.
Heart was removed from body and butterflied. Two surgeons, 6 OR nurses. $170,000
Was sent home after 3 days. Paid $2,400 out of pocket for each procedure.


----------



## mcdougy

Both of your stories are amazing and sound like they couldn't have gone much better
It's hard to believe you can be in and out that quick. You sent home feeling pretty tough? Or not that bad?  Jan how long did that surgery take to remove your heart like that?


----------



## Jan Pijpelink

mcdougy said:


> Both of your stories are amazing and sound like they couldn't have gone much better
> It's hard to believe you can be in and out that quick. You sent home feeling pretty tough? Or not that bad?  Jan how long did that surgery take to remove your heart like that?


Dr. Bruce Lytle was the chief heart surgeon/chair of the Cleveland heart clinic. He is considered one of the best in the world. It took him and the second surgeon only 3,5 hours from cutting my chest open to sewing it back together. My heart was out for about 29 minutes. Healing for 6 weeks, had to cough a lot to get moisture out off my lungs. Was quite painful. Went back to work full time after 6 weeks.
Dr. Lytle had done 300 of these operations on people with the exact same condition. Left 3 on the table.


----------



## MTY

I am hoping that with good genetics, plenty of exercise, no alcohol, no smoking and a decent diet I can avoid these experiences.  I am glad things went well for you, but I would just as soon miss the experience.


----------



## Jan Pijpelink

Well, my condition has nothing to do with life style. It is a *birth defect*. Short story long, in 1998 Joanne and I moved from Singapore to PA. To get a driver's license I had an MD fill out a medical form. Out of habit, I guess, he put a stethoscope on my chest and heard a murmur. That is how they found out. Next day I was at a cardiologist for 6 hours, doing all kinds of tests. I had black-outs every now and then, but I thought it was because I was overworked (80+ hrs/week for many years). He asked if I had any siblings dying at young age. Yes, brother in 1972 at 21 and sister in 1990 at 34. Keep in mind in 1972 nobody heard of Cardiomyopathy.
We moved back to the Netherlands in 2000, they could not help me there besides giving me medication. Coming back to the US in 2003, in NJ, they could not help me either, they said. Then I went to the Cleveland Clinic for a second opinion and they assured me they could "fix" me, and they did.
This condition is a birth defect as said and skips a generation in most cases. Both my parents had no heart issues. I had my remaining sister tested, negative. The daughter of my diseased sister also negative. My brother died in a "strange" car accident, we now think he had a black-out behind the wheel because of this. My diseased sister who died at 34 was known to have a heart valve issue. She died of heart failure.
I started smoking at 13 the day my brother died and still drink IPA's. I feel great, I buck trees, split and haul and have plenty of other exercise. No issues what so ever after the surgery. Every night I do 50 push ups at 61.

But you are right, you don't want to get through this.


----------



## mcdougy

Jan, you must have felt very fortunate that the cost was so low for these expensive procedures. Was it you earlier in this thread saying you had basically the best insurance going provided by your employer....I wonder what sort of costs would be associated for the average car salesman.
The ICU my wife is in currently is attached to heart clinic. Here like many places I'm sure, the bigger hospitals have specialized departments that look after certain things. At this hospital that is a teaching hospital attached to the university they perform about 20 heart transplants a year. It's pretty mind widening to imagine how much stuff they fix in a year.
Johneh, I'm on the outskirts of London on a farm. Our place can be seen from both the 401 and 402. It's nice country up around Perth and I have been in the area a few times. My little fishing boat would be envious to reside in that necknof the woods. Currently I drag it 4-6hrs to find a few fish. We have a huntcamp up on the magnetawan river between parry sound and Sudbury. It's nice country up there as well. I like trying to find a freezer grade moose as well as fish at our camp.


----------



## Jan Pijpelink

_Was it you earlier in this thread saying you had basically the best insurance going provided by your employer.._

The procedures were done before I went to my current employer.


----------



## SidecarFlip

Jan Pijpelink said:


> Dr. Bruce Lytle was the chief heart surgeon/chair of the Cleveland heart clinic. He is considered one of the best in the world. It took him and the second surgeon only 3,5 hours from cutting my chest open to sewing it back together. My heart was out for about 29 minutes. Healing for 6 weeks, had to cough a lot to get moisture out off my lungs. Was quite painful. Went back to work full time after 6 weeks.
> Dr. Lytle had done 300 of these operations on people with the exact same condition. Left 3 on the table.




AS much time as I've spent 'on the table' for non related heart stuff, I really don't want to be 'tablleized' again, anytime soon.  Standard operating tables are too short for me so my feet hang over and I always wake up with sore Achilles tendons.....

Been 'intubed' as well but not for Covid and that isn't a pleasant experience either.  My wife was liking it however as I lost my voice for about a month afterwards.  All I could do was squeak like a mouse.  It impacted my vocal chords....  Least it wasn't surgically implanted, just down the old throat with the corrugated plastic pipe with lubricant added.

I prefer not to do it again if at all possible.


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## SidecarFlip

bholler said:


> I just have to say to everyone here how grateful I am that we can have discussions like this here like adults and not end up with childish insults.  So I have to say thanyou.  And yes I am certainly more liberal than some of you if you ever feel I am being unfair in that regard please feel free to pm me and call me out on it.   We really try to keep politics out of this site but it is inevitable in discussions like this.
> 
> Again thanks guys for keeping it civil.




No issue with me.  I generally dislike discussing politics anyway.  Political discussions usually end up bad because no one can agree on anything so people resort to getting nasty to make their point and of course no one agrees with it anyway.

Political discussions are always a slippery slope.


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## SidecarFlip

Jan Pijpelink said:


> _Was it you earlier in this thread saying you had basically the best insurance going provided by your employer.._
> 
> The procedures were done before I went to my current employer.


If you are referring to me, I'm retired so I have Federal Employees BC, high option and Medicare so I have no deductibles whatsoever.  It's 100% coverage excluding prescriptions but they are 5 bucks each, generic or not.


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## PaulOinMA

Trying to do our taxes.  So glad we have the extension.

First received the 1095-B form stating that we DID NOT have insurance coverage for the entire year.

O.k., called insurance company.  Received corrected form stating that we had coverage.

Finished federal taxes in TurboTax.  Started state taxes.  We need a second, state form indicating coverage to do state taxes.

Called insurance comnpany and they said they would send us the form.

Receive another copy of the 1095-B federal form stating that we have coverage even though we specifically stated that we need the 1099-HC MA state form.

Call insurance company.

They send MA state form stating the we DO NOT have insurance for the entire year.

Call insurance company to yet again explain that we had insurance.

They are working on getting us the 1099-HC MA state form and have missed several dates that they have stated that we would received the 1099-HC.


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## Seasoned Oak

PaulOinMA said:


> First received the 1095-B form stating that we DID NOT have insurance coverage for the entire year.
> the 1099-HC.


No penalty anymore anyway so why all the hassle. I dont think your even required to file the 1095 anymore unless its something with your state requirement in MA.


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## bholler

Seasoned Oak said:


> No penalty anymore anyway so why all the hassle. I dont think your even required to file the 1095 anymore unless its something with your state requirement in MA.


It is still law and technically the penalty is still on the books just not being enforced.  All I had to do on h&r block was say yes we were all covered.  No paperwork


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## PaulOinMA

Seasoned Oak said:


> … No penalty anymore anyway so why all the hassle. I dont think your even required to file the 1095 anymore unless its something with your state requirement in MA …



I need the MA form.  Also, as mentioned above, I want the Federal form stating that we have insurance (well … because we do) for my files in case we were audited.


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## begreen

SidecarFlip said:


> No issue with me.  I generally dislike discussing politics anyway.  Political discussions usually end up bad because no one can agree on anything so people resort to getting nasty to make their point and of course no one agrees with it anyway.
> 
> Political discussions are always a slippery slope.


Unfortunately, we have become so polarized as a nation that no matter how centrist or moderate one's POV is, it gets distorted in both directions.  It's never liberal enough for one side or conservative enough for the other. We have lost our center as a nation at a time when we all need to be working together on the biggest problem of the century.


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## SidecarFlip

begreen said:


> Unfortunately, we have become so polarized as a nation that no matter how centrist or moderate one's POV is, it gets distorted in both directions.  It's never liberal enough for one side or conservative enough for the other. We have lost our center as a nation at a time when we all need to be working together on the biggest problem of the century.




The old adage holds true in this and many cases...  If you cannot impress someone with paperwork, dazzle them with stupidity.  Governments (state and Federal, survive and prosper on paperwork.  I don't believe half of them even know what the forms mean..


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## SidecarFlip

I have to say that I've never used Turbo Tax or H&R Block to do our taxes.  Our accountant does them every year.  Ours is pretty complex in as much as the farm is a corporation and my machine shop business is as well plus our personal income and liabilities.  I'd just as soon pay him to do it and I have for many years now.  Nice thing about farming and that is, we are always in the hole and it always offsets all the other liabilities.  Great business to be in.


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## PaulOinMA

A friend and I never could discuss politics.  I'm conservative.  He's liberal.

Conservatives have gone so far right.  Liberals have gone so far left.  Then there are socialists.

My friend and I have no problem discussing politics now as we are close in beliefs compared to the nutso fringes.


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## PaulOinMA

I've always done my own taxes and used TurboTax.   We have second house on OBX that is also in a rental program.  I keep good records throughout the year.  Was easy to add the second home, and we have to do three taxes now.  Federal and two states.  TurboTax is very simple to use.  It asks questions, and you answer them with your records for the year.


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## bholler

PaulOinMA said:


> A friend and I never could discuss politics.  I'm conservative.  He's liberal.
> 
> Conservatives have gone so far right.  Liberals have gone so far left.  Then there are socialists.
> 
> My friend and I have no problem discussing politics now as we are close in beliefs compared to the nutso fringes.


I really don't believe there are all that many who are truly in the extremes.  If you actually talk with people on both sides they may be extreme on one or two issues but most are actually fairly moderate.  And there are very few true socialists here.  Many want more socialised programs but only when combined with capitalism.


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## johneh

I heard that a little different 
 If you can't blind them with brilliance 
baffle them with Bullsh*t


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## tlc1976

johneh said:


> I heard that a little different
> If you can't blind them with brilliance
> baffle them with Bullsh*t



My college instructor always said impress with intelligence for the first part. Second part the same.


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## MTY

Jan,  61 =  whippersnapper.


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## Seasoned Oak

PaulOinMA said:


> A friend and I never could discuss politics.  I'm conservative.  He's liberal.
> Conservatives have gone so far right.  Liberals have gone so far left.  Then there are socialists.
> My friend and I have no problem discussing politics now as we are close in beliefs compared to the nutso fringes.


Im a slightly right of center democrat. One of my best friends is so far left hes wading in the pacific from PA . Doesnt affect our friendship in the least. We talk politics all the time ,who says you have to agree on everything to remain friends or close to someone.  If that was the standard , id be divorced long ago.


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## walhondingnashua

I feel that these are all great points and part of the problem here.  A guy I work with is to the right of center and I am to the left of center, with a few issues that way lean a little harder in our own directions on.  The 2 of us talk politics all the time and our other coworkers get uncomfortable and thin it always has to be a confrontation.  It's a big problem in the country today.  Adults should be able to have a discussion on an issue they disagree on without it being confrontational.  As a teacher, I see kids learning that same problem.  80% of us all want the same thing, we may just disagree on how to get there.


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## Sodbuster

SidecarFlip said:


> AS much time as I've spent 'on the table' for non related heart stuff, I really don't want to be 'tablleized' again, anytime soon.  Standard operating tables are too short for me so my feet hang over and I always wake up with sore Achilles tendons.....
> 
> Been 'intubed' as well but not for Covid and that isn't a pleasant experience either.  My wife was liking it however as I lost my voice for about a month afterwards.  All I could do was squeak like a mouse.  It impacted my vocal chords....  Least it wasn't surgically implanted, just down the old throat with the corrugated plastic pipe with lubricant added.
> 
> I prefer not to do it again if at all possible.



If you felt your Intubation at all you had a really bad Anesthesia provider. More than likely a Resident with little supervision. They obviously did not know what they were doing, or just too rough placing the tube. Yes it can be a complication, but one that can be avoided with the proper training or supervision.


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## SidecarFlip

Sodbuster said:


> If you felt your Intubation at all you had a really bad Anesthesia provider. More than likely a Resident with little supervision. They obviously did not know what they were doing, or just too rough placing the tube. Yes it can be a complication, but one that can be avoided with the proper training or supervision.




It was actually inserted by my surgeon.  What I has was an issue with my vocal chords more than anything else.  Not something I want again.  Of course my wife enjoyed my squeaking for a month.

Even today, I'm very cognizant about wearing a mask and washing my mitts a lot and anytime I go into a store, It's on and when I come out I use hand sanitizer, keep a pump bottle in the car.

Don't much care what anybody thinks, what I think is what is important to me.


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## SidecarFlip

Seasoned Oak said:


> Im a slightly right of center democrat. One of my best friends is so far left hes wading in the pacific from PA . Doesnt affect our friendship in the least. We talk politics all the time ,who says you have to agree on everything to remain friends or close to someone.  If that was the standard , id be divorced long ago.


Being a Democrat, I won't hold it against you...lol  You seem like a pretty level headed individual.  Me, I can swing either way, depending on what I see as issues and who addresses them to my liking.  Of course campaign promises and reality are 2 different animals today.


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## Seasoned Oak

SidecarFlip said:


> Being a Democrat, I won't hold it against you...lol  You seem like a pretty level headed individual.


Dont know about that ,iv been called a  Xenophobe here on hearth ,i may have a hard time explaining that to my asian wife and kids though. Im definitely a conserative so a contradiction in terms.  Most of todays Democrat leaders have moved farther left than i could support. Healthcare as an insurace program that every one contributes to i support but not so much as a socialist program. Same  with SS.


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## SidecarFlip

Seasoned Oak said:


> Dont know about that ,iv been called a  Xenophobe here on hearth ,i may have a hard time explaining that to my asian wife and kids though. Im definitely a conserative so a contradiction in terms.  Most of todays Democrat leaders have moved farther left than i could support. Healthcare as an insurace program that every one contributes to i support but not so much as a socialist program. Same  with SS.


At my age, I don't accuse anyone of being anything unless it's an in person observance.  How someone responds to something on an Internet forum in no way influences how I feel about them.  We all have opinions about things but personal opinions and actual in your face opinions expressed are usually 2 different animals.

Because I'm mixed blood, I'm part African American (I actually prefer Negro), I've been subjected to discrimination in my lifetime but, I don't grudges against anyone.  Sometimes people judge others based on things they really have no grasp on other than acquired by instilled traits.

No, I don't ascribe to the latest BLM stuff.  All lives matter in my view, but that is for another time and place and not here.


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