# Back Puffing



## AppalachianStan (Nov 16, 2013)

Can you please go though all the thing that can causes back puffing in a wood stove? Trying to find the problem in my stove set up. I find this http://firecatcombustors.blogspot.com/2013/10/what-causes-catalytic-stove-to-back-puff.html when my stove get up to 1000*- 1200* on the cat probe and the load is almost burned up it back puffing bad. I also saw if the stock is cool it will causes it to back puff so I not think a barometric draft regulator would work.Will the BDR keep the stock cool? The air inlet to the stove are clean. The chimney is clean. The cap is clean. The wood so so may be 20%. CSS Nov. 2012. The chimney class A 15' X 8". The stove gasket are good. Only thing left is to add more chimney hight or go to a 6" class A chimney. It will be Tuesday be for I can get the fire going it has warm up out side for a fire. Thank for all the help.


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## Ashful (Nov 16, 2013)

Backpuffing is typically caused by combining weak draft with a very low primary air control setting.  The weak draft is caused by a combination of warm outside temperatures and/or short chimney.  The problem can be made better or worse by selection of wood (resinous woods and walnut are most likely to cause the problem, in my experience).

In an ideal world, you supply fresh air to the stove at the minimum rate required to support combustion of the volatile gasses coming off the wood.  However, if the wood is off-gassing very quickly, and your primary air control set very low, you run into a situation where the gasses are building up in the firebox more quickly than they can combust (due to lack of oxygen from fresh air).  These gasses build up, while fresh air is slowly leaking into the stove.  Eventually, sufficient oxygen mix is achieved for combustion, and *whoosh*, backpuff.  This immediately uses up the oxygen in the firebox, and the stove again stalls.  Air slowly leaks in... repeat.

When this starts happening, I have to rely on experience to judge my course of action.  Opening the air supply will make it stop, as you're now supplying sufficient make-up air to maintain constant combustion.  In fact, I think Woodstock PH owner rideau once said, "if I don't see continuous flame, I can expect back-pufffing."  Going back a year, this was always my course of action, too.  However, then I'd sometimes find the stove running hotter than I like.

More recently, if I find the backpuffing start up in the 5 - 20 minutes after turning down the stove, I will sometimes just wait it out.  The theory there is that the present burn rate is too high for the air I'm supplying, but that having just turned down the stove, the present burn rate should soon slow (and the back-puffing thus subside).  If you find the stove backpuffing, and it's been more than 20 minutes since you made an air adjustment, then obviously the off-gassing is on the rise for your current setting, and it's time to give it a bit more air.

By "a bit more air", I find that VERY small adjustments of the air control help.  Unless the reaction is so violent, to where you're worried it's going to blow the stove doors open, make your adjustments very small and wait a good couple minutes between adjustments.  It will only take one or two small adjustments to make the back-puffing go away.

_edit:  almost forgot to add... I have run the same stove on three different chimneys:

1.  5' stove pipe + 10' of 8" clay tile flue:  back-puffing was almost un-avoidable.  Constant problem.

2.  5' stove pipe + 10' of insulated 6" flex liner:  back-puffing is avoidable, as long as I don't shut air control to 0%.  Leave at 5% - 10%, and it runs great.

3.  5' of stove pipe + 27' of insulated 6" flex liner:  back-puffing never happens.  I will occasionally get the, "die, then flare up," type behavior, but never strong enough to push any smoke out thru the inlets.  I run this configuration with the air completely shut to 0%._


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## AppalachianStan (Nov 16, 2013)

Joful, My primary are was open all the way up. and the back puffing did not start untill the wood was all burned up and temps was at 1000*.


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## Charles1981 (Nov 16, 2013)

Sometimes If I have let my stove build up too much ash and I have the secondary air control turned all the way down I will get what I believe is mild back-puffing: Just smoldering logs and then every 15-25 seconds a wave of flames goes across the logs from left to right and then goes out again. If I open the secondary a 1/4 turn usually flames appears and the process stops.

I know back puffing typically is a problem due to  smoke leakage and I have a top loading stove, but smoke never leaks out, there is no rattle, no sound of explosion or huge WOOSH...it just is a lazy flame that pops up and slowly coarses over the logs typically from left to right and then goes out and repeats.

Is this even considered backpuffing and if so should I be terribly concerned? Usually i just empty the ash pan and it probably increases oxygen through the air intakes in the ask pan and is why the process stops, but I do like to run the stove with a very full ash-pan as I get much longer burn times and far better coals after a long burn with a full ash pan than after emptying it.


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## Sprinter (Nov 16, 2013)

It could be a draft reversal problem which has similar results.  But this statement:



Charles1981 said:


> Sometimes If I have let my stove build up too much ash and I have the secondary air control turned all the way down I will get what I believe is mild back-puffing: Just smoldering logs and then every 15-25 seconds a wave of flames goes across the logs from left to right and then goes out again. If I open the secondary a 1/4 turn usually flames appears and the process stops.


sounds like a backpuff.  Your problem may be something related to the cat and I'm not a cat owner (well, I am, but not that kind of cat).  But the only time I've experienced a  true back puff is when I turned the air down too quickly on my non-cat.  I also have a pretty short flue at 13' which I'm sure contributes.  

If your fire is hot and needs O2 but you deprive it of enough, it will suck it in any way it can.  Backpuff.  It's gasping for air.


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## Ashful (Nov 16, 2013)

AppalachianStan said:


> ...when my stove get up to 1000*- 1200* on the cat probe and the load is almost burned up it back puffing bad.





AppalachianStan said:


> Joful, My primary are was open all the way up. and the back puffing did not start untill the wood was all burned up and temps was at 1000*.


I saw this statement the first time, but was confused.  How is your cat at 1000F, if you're at the end of a burn cycle / load almost burned up?  The cat will typically have fallen out of ignition at this point, as there's not much volatile left in the wood to feed the cat.  Describe exactly what you mean by "back-puffing."


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## Grisu (Nov 17, 2013)

AppalachianStan said:


> Joful, My primary are was open all the way up. and the back puffing did not start untill the wood was all burned up and temps was at 1000*.



Plus, how can you have back-puffing if the primary air is all the way open? Back-puffing happens when the fire is starved for oxygen not when you give it plenty of air. Do you have a flue thermometer? Your cat may still be hot but your exhaust air may not which will result in insufficient draft. When was the last time you cleaned the cat? Maybe that one is plugged badly.


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## Sprinter (Nov 17, 2013)

Grisu said:


> Back-puffing happens when the fire is starved for oxygen not when you give it plenty of air.



That's just what he said is happening in the following quote (post #4):   I'm not sure what's going on.


Charles1981 said:


> Sometimes If I have let my stove build up too much ash and I have the secondary air control turned all the way down I will get what I believe is mild back-puffing: Just smoldering logs and then every 15-25 seconds a wave of flames goes across the logs from left to right and then goes out again. If I open the secondary a 1/4 turn usually flames appears and the process stops.


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## AppalachianStan (Nov 17, 2013)

It will run for 2 hours at 800* then it will pick out at 1000- 1200*.It will run at 1000 - 1200* for about 30 mins to an hour. then there is no wood left to burn just coals and the temps will start to drop off and this will take about 2 hours to get back down to around 300* to reload. And the primary air is open from the start of a load to the end. The fire will go out then a big fire ball in the stove push out smoke. Now to get this to stop I can open the bypass by say 1/8" but the temps will rise.


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## Ashful (Nov 17, 2013)

A plugged cat might be it, or maybe something plugging the primary air inlet.  I remember one story of primary air blocked by a dead mouse carcase.  I can't imagine running any stove at full open air, without self destructing, unless something was obstructing the air.

A gauge on stovetop temps would be interesting.


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## AppalachianStan (Nov 17, 2013)

Joful said:


> A plugged cat might be it, or maybe something plugging the primary air inlet.


No plugged up cats can see though them. Not a plug primary air inlet it is clean. and not a plugged chimney cap it is clean.



Joful said:


> A gauge on stovetop temps would be interesting.


Stove top temps are at 400 when cat is running at 1000* and 500* when the cat is 1200* but flue temp are 250*


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## AppalachianStan (Nov 17, 2013)

Here is the beast


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## Ashful (Nov 17, 2013)

Weird.  All your temps are perfect.  Has this problem always existed with this setup, or was there some recent change?


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## AppalachianStan (Nov 17, 2013)

Joful said:


> recent change


Cats where put in in Feb.



Joful said:


> Has this problem always existed with this setup


Draft has been a problem. But it have never Back puffing before.


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## raybonz (Nov 17, 2013)

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/backpuffing-with-a-cat.75556/#post-956487

Ray


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## Grisu (Nov 17, 2013)

Did you do any changes to your house recently? Like tightening up windows or doors? Or add a bathroom fan? With a poor draft that may have just pushed you over the edge. 

I don't know your stove but is it normal for that model that it needs to be run with the air fully open? Mine would go nuclear in that case and I will send a lot of heat up the flue.


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## Woody Stover (Nov 17, 2013)

I got some of that flash-over action last night with the Buck; Let too much of the load ignite at start-up, so a lot off wood was off-gassing. With 21' of stack, there's enough draw so that no smoke escapes the stove. My main problem, though, was that the cat wanted to go high with all the available smoke to burn. I didn't like doing it, but I ended up leaving the bypass a little open so I could leave.

Stan's shorter stack, and a warmer night would create good conditions for a back-puff. But I, too, don't see this happening when the wood is mostly burned up; Not enough gassing happening. Now if you have been burning wet wood (IIRC, Stan's wood could be drier) and have gooey creosote built up in the fire box, _it _can gas when the stove gets a little hotter. Don't ask me how I know.   But even that shouldn't be a problem with the air open. So like Joful, I'd like to hear what exactly is happening when it 'back-puffs,' Stan?

Stan, seems like adding 3' of 8" chimney would be cheaper than buying a full-length 6" stack. The only thing is you would probably have to brace the additional chimney....


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## Woody Stover (Nov 17, 2013)

Grisu said:


> Did you do any changes to your house recently? Like tightening up windows or doors? Or add a bathroom fan? With a poor draft that may have just pushed you over the edge.
> 
> I don't know your stove but is it normal for that model that it needs to be run with the air fully open? Mine would go nuclear in that case and I will send a lot of heat up the flue.


I think it's pretty similar to the Buck 91 that I run, and I cruise it with the air barely open. But like we've said, he should be having more of a problem at the start of the burn with low air, if it is a classic back-puff....


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## AppalachianStan (Nov 17, 2013)

Grisu said:


> Did you do any changes to your house recently


No Changes.



Woody Stover said:


> Stan's shorter stack, and a warmer night would create good conditions for a back-puff


It was 29* the last time it back puffed.



Woody Stover said:


> I'd like to hear what exactly is happening when it 'back-puffs


If I start a cold stove I put in 2 splits with kindling in the mid to get some coals rack coals to front of firebox then put 4 to 5 split on the coals NS bring stove up to 700* on cat probe then close the door. the stove will level out at 800*. Stove has been running at 800* on the cat probe 250* on the flue and 350* to 400* on stove top with the by pass closed and the primary air open for about 2 hours with small flame in the firebox on 5 splits then the temps start to rise to 1000* the fire goes out, a second later the gases build up then it ignites with a fire ball and out comes smoke this will repeat until it hit 1200* and the log stops off gassing then the temp starts to drop for 2 hours until it time to reload.


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## AppalachianStan (Nov 17, 2013)

Woody Stover said:


> adding 3' of 8" chimney would be cheaper


Yes it will be cheaper but it will run me about $300 to do this.


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## AppalachianStan (Nov 18, 2013)

Are you guys sure by adding 3' of chimney will help my draft? Will 18' of flue be enough or should I go for 20'
I will be going by Lowe's tomorrow to order a chimney and the chimney brace.


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## Sprinter (Nov 18, 2013)

AppalachianStan said:


> Are you guys sure by adding 3' of chimney will help my draft? Will 18' of flue be enough or should I go for 20'
> I will be going by Lowe's tomorrow to order a chimney and the chimney brace.


The way it works is that for every so many percent increase in length, the draft will increase by the same percentage.  So 3 ft would increase draft 20% in this case.  You'd have to figure out if that's enough.   I think I'd try that first and see then you could add more later if necessary, especially if you have to add supports.


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## AppalachianStan (Nov 19, 2013)

Order 3' Class A chimney and the chimney brace for $209.00 from Lowe's it will be here in 20 days. That will give me 18' of chimney.


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## Sprinter (Nov 19, 2013)

Hope it works.  20% doesn't sound like much, but it may make the difference.


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## Ashful (Nov 20, 2013)

Yeah, but I think this is the difference between being right on the recommended minimum vs. not.


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## Woody Stover (Nov 20, 2013)

Joful said:


> Yeah, but I think this is the difference between being right on the recommended minimum vs. not.


I didn't see the recommended height in the manual....


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## AppalachianStan (Nov 24, 2013)

Just got me one of those moisture meter from Lowe's. My wood need more time to dry it is at 20.9%. Got some Eco Blocks from Tractor Supply.
1. How many do you have to put in to the stove to get good heart from them?
2. On a hot bed of coals it took some time to get cat probes up to 700*?


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## Sprinter (Nov 24, 2013)

AppalachianStan said:


> Just got me one of those moisture meter from Lowe's. My wood need more time to dry it is at 20.9%


Your meter has a resolution of .1?  The actual accuracy of these kinds of meters is only 1 or 2% in real life use, which is close enough for fire wood use.  I'm very happy with 21.  You should only really need to supplement if it's closer to 25%, but it's not an exact science.


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## AppalachianStan (Nov 24, 2013)

This wood stove is really bugging me. The cat probe is at 600* been burning for 3 hours now with the prime air open all the way bypass closed and it is 32* outside. I hope the by putting more chimney I get more draft.


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## AppalachianStan (Nov 25, 2013)

Will it is cold in my home this morning 50* inside. Burning eco blocks would think the stove would get hot but it did not. I think the stove cats are to small and the bad air flow of the stove just want let it get up to temp. It is 23* outside the stove should draft will with 15' of chimney. I need a new wood stove anything that would work. I see this one.http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/sto...m-wood-stove-with-blower-medium-epa-certified I only have 1500sq feet to heart so it should work. If I can find a good one on CL for $300.00 would be nice.


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## raybonz (Nov 25, 2013)

AppalachianStan said:


> Will it is cold in my home this morning 50* inside. Burning eco blocks would think the stove would get hot but it did not. I think the stove cats are to small and the bad air flow of the stove just want let it get up to temp. It is 23* outside the stove should draft will with 15' of chimney. I need a new wood stove anything that would work. I see this one.http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/sto...m-wood-stove-with-blower-medium-epa-certified I only have 1500sq feet to heart so it should work. If I can find a good one on CL for $300.00 would be nice.


https://www.usstove.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=309&product_id=502

That's a great deal on that stove Stan as it lists at $1121.25! For that price I'd go new and get the warranty.

Ray


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## Ashful (Nov 25, 2013)

I can understand your frustration, but... Appalachian to US stove?  Toyota to Yugo?  Seems like an enormous step backwards.  Have you called Appalachian tech support, and explained your situation?  That would be my first step.


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## AppalachianStan (Nov 25, 2013)

Joful said:


> Have you called Appalachian tech support


Yes. The stove is to old and they have gone though so many owners. its like there is no record of the stove. I can take it to them to have them rework the stove but the stove is not wrath it.
I am thinking of taking off the metal plate in front of the cats to see if that helps and taking out one side glass and making some type of slider with and opening on some steel to get more air in the stove


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## Grisu (Nov 25, 2013)

More air in the stove than you are already doing? I think you need less not more. Looking at how you burn your stove with the air usually fully open your heat goes up the flue. 

When you checked your wood for moisture did you resplit several large pieces and test the center of the fresh surface; preferably along the grain?


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## rideau (Nov 25, 2013)

So here is a wild question.  IS there any chance you have the bypass and air control confused?  I never heard of opening a bypass 1/8...and with the air open all the way you should be getting a really hot, really fast burn with all the heat going up the chimney and NO backpuffs...more apt to have run away fires.  The burn you are getting sounds ore like what one would get with the air properly (for a cat stove) closed or almost closed.  If you have the confused the controls and have the air closed all the way, then what you are describing could very easily happen...a cat burn that gives you backpuffing at  certain stages of the burn.  If you have confused the controls, then it sounds like you are burning with the bypass (NOT AIR CONTROL) closed (where you are calling the air control all the way open) and the air control (which you are calling the bypass) closed as well.  Is this possible? If so, then try burning with the air control just slightly open (1/8).


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## Grisu (Nov 25, 2013)

I just took a look at the manual: https://www.hearth.com/talk/attachments/appalachian_52-bay_manual_08-pdf.68225/
From that it looks like the primary air control is built into the door but your unit looks quite different. I see the damper control for the catalyst but nothing else. Where is your primary air control? Do you have a start-up air control as described in the manual? Was that door ever replaced with a custom-made one?


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## Woody Stover (Nov 25, 2013)

"Burn natural wood only. Do not
burn trash, garbage, *artificial or
paper logs*,"

The Eco-logs are probably clean, but I would find out for sure that they contain no chemicals which could harm your combustor.


AppalachianStan said:


> I hope the by putting more chimney I get more draft.


I was gonna say maybe the wood's too wet, but if the Eco-logs won't burn hot either, we are back to the draft issue (I'm pretty sure you know that the bypass is the rod with the spring handle above the door. Is the air bottom-center, to the left of the ash pan?)  I see that the newer App 52 calls for 6" _or_ 8" chimney. I'm thinking that 6" would give you more draft, so maybe 8" is marginal. Since you already have 8", adding height would be the way to go.





> The stove is to old and they have gone though so many owners. its like there is no record of the stove....
> I am thinking of taking off the metal plate in front of the cats to see if that helps and taking out one side glass and making some type of slider with and opening on some steel to get more air in the stove


It's possible that the old stove is just never going to work very well, but I'm thinking it could (if it's not damaged in some way.) No way I would tamper with the stove like that....sounds potentially dangerous. 
I'm so invested in this story now, that I want to find out what the answer really is. _Anybody_ can go get another stove.... 
If you _do_ go that route, other that CL, I like BB's idea of contacting real estate agents, who may have stoves they want to get out of a house quick. You might get a fine stove for cheap that way. I've seen the Country Hearth at TSC and it doesn't look too bad. Just your basic stove. That's pretty much the regular price on 'em. I think they had the bigger one on sale for $649 here last spring. Hardly any modern stoves turn up here on CL, but several that have are the cheaper stoves from the farm stores, box stores, etc. They sell a lot of them. A tube stove would be a little more forgiving with wood that isn't quite dry....


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## AppalachianStan (Nov 25, 2013)

As you all see this is my prime air intake. The slider at the top of stove is the by pass


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## AppalachianStan (Nov 25, 2013)

Grisu said:


> Do you have a start-up air control as described in the manua


No just the door.


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## mellow (Nov 25, 2013)

I am waiting for Stan to install the additional pipe to his chimney before diagnosing anymore issues.


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## AppalachianStan (Nov 25, 2013)

mellow said:


> I am waiting for Stan to install the additional pipe to his chimney before diagnosing anymore issues.


Hopefully it will be here soon.



Grisu said:


> When you checked your wood for moisture did you resplit several large pieces and test the center of the fresh surface; preferably along the grain?


Yes I did.


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## mellow (Nov 25, 2013)

I just wanted to do a brief summary of Stan's *threads* about this stove:

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/i-made-things-a-lot-worse.77856/   <--- 8 pages long!
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/has-any-seen-these-before.78711/
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/just-a-few-questions.79223/
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/glass-gets-black.79451/
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/would-the-stove-over-fire.79471/
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/cleaned-out-my-chimney.105881/
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/tarcreoste.106465/
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/cats-ordered.106745/
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/cats-are-in.107311/
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/thin-tar.107696/
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/i-getting-puffs-of-smoke-out-of-the-stove.116217/
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/need-your-help.117521/


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## AppalachianStan (Nov 25, 2013)

mellow said:


> I just wanted to do a brief summary of Stan's threads about this stove:


Hope that's not to many?


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## mellow (Nov 25, 2013)

I think you hold the prize for most threads on a single stove.


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## raybonz (Nov 25, 2013)

AppalachianStan said:


> Hope that's not to many?


Not too many Stan this is what we're about here.. Ask away! 

Ray


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## AppalachianStan (Nov 27, 2013)

Thought I would give you all a update. Got my first long burn today at 9 hours. I closed down the bypass and the prime air at 600* to get this burn. But it started back puffing. I was wrong it does not start at the end of the burn. It starts at the peak of the burn all ways at 1000* are higher then it stop as the temp goes down. Still waiting on delivery on the chimney pipe.


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## Ashful (Nov 28, 2013)

Then we're back to my initial statement about this problem :  insufficient draft for the chosen air setting.  If you have this problem, the peak of the burn cycle is when it normally appears.  Solutions:

1.  More draft.
2.  Higher primary air setting.
3.  Prevent your load from getting to a point where it's off gassing so quickly (turn down air sooner).
 4.  Choose wood that is not so likely to cause this problem.


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## AppalachianStan (Nov 28, 2013)

Joful said:


> 2. Higher primary air setting.


at first the primary was all the way open. Now I am closing around 400* on the cat probe.



Joful said:


> 4. Choose wood that is not so likely to cause this problem.


It is oak.



Joful said:


> 3. Prevent your load from getting to a point where it's off gassing so quickly (turn down air sooner).


Now this is got me. 
1. Do you get all the wood cherried like a cig. Are just some?
2. How long should it take to get up to temp?
3. What should be the ideal temp to get the stove before closing down?
4. How do I get the temps to 1000* on the cat probe with out it back puffing and keeping the temp until it peaks?
This morning at 7 the house was 50* still had coals in the firebox to start the load but it took a hour to get up to 800* on the cat probe. We left to go to our Thanksgiving dinner at 2 and the house was at 70* and stove was 800* on the cat probe.


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## AppalachianStan (Nov 28, 2013)

Do all Cat stove get black and cresote in the firebox?


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## Ashful (Nov 28, 2013)

AppalachianStan said:


> at first the primary was all the way open. Now I am closing around 400* on the cat probe.


I'm not familiar with the operating instructions on the Appalachian 52, but this sounds awful early to me.  Normal procedure (on reload of an already warm stove) is as follows:

1.  Open bypass.
2.  Load wood.  A few smaller pieces (3") on bottom to get load going, larger stuff (4" - 6") on top.
3.  Burn with bypass open until stovetop hits 500 - 600 F, or flue temp hits 500 - 600 F on outside of single-wall.
4.  Close bypass.
5.  Wait 5 - 15 minutes for cat to reach cruising temperature (~1000F).
6.  Lower primary air in 3 - 4 increments (1/2, 1/4, 1/8, closed).
7.  Verify cat probe temp stays well above 500 F (1000 - 1500 F is typical).

Doing this, I typically have stove-top temps 350 - 400 F, and cat probe temps of 1500 F for the first several hours of the burn.

If you're starting from a cold stove, precede the above instructions with:

1.  Kindle and light.
2.  Add a few 2" - 3" splits, let them get going.
3.  Add a few 3" - 4" splits, let them get going good.
4.  When stove-top or outside of single-wall reach 500 - 600 F, close bypass damper.
5.  Burn this load with air control kept full open, or 1/2 open.  Stove will not overheat due to small load of wood.  Your goal here is getting the chimney and stove pre-heated.
6.  When this small load reaches coaling stage, proceed with the reloading instructions above.



AppalachianStan said:


> It is oak.


Very tough to get a good fire going with all oak in the firebox.  If you said it, I missed it, but have you split a piece and checked moisture content on a freshly-exposed interior face?  The overwhelming majority of all cat stove troubles come from insufficiently dry wood.



AppalachianStan said:


> Now this is got me.
> 1. Do you get all the wood cherried like a cig. Are just some?
> 2. How long should it take to get up to temp?
> 3. What should be the ideal temp to get the stove before closing down?
> 4. How do I get the temps to 1000* on the cat probe with out it back puffing and keeping the temp until it peaks?


Some of these questions I just answered above, but I do try to get all of the wood charred over in bypass, before closing the damper.  This sometimes means closing down on primary air while still in bypass mode, to allow the wood to char longer, without overheating the flue.  This would be the case when burning lots of oak, or other insufficiently dry wood.

In terms of getting cat temp up without backpuffing, I suspect you're having the same exact trouble I had last year.  Wood is too wet, and so things don't really take off the way you want, early in the burn.  At some point an hour in, the wood finally dries out, and with a hot bed of coals now established, things take off like a bat out of hell.  I remember many late nights, wanting to go to bed, while sitting up frustrated with a backpuffing stove.  You will actually find several threads of me complaining about this the last two years, but this year my troubles seem to have disappeared.  I think the only thing I've really changed is the quality of my wood.



AppalachianStan said:


> This morning at 7 the house was 50* still had coals in the firebox to start the load but it took a hour to get up to 800* on the cat probe. We left to go to our Thanksgiving dinner at 2 and the house was at 70* and stove was 800* on the cat probe.


An hour from a cold stove, or an hour from a reload?  If an hour from cold, not entirely abnormal.  If an hour from a reload, you've got wet wood.


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## AppalachianStan (Nov 28, 2013)

I have checked some of the wood by re splitting them and then checked with moisture meter. There at 20% But I have tried eco blocks on hot coals and it still take time to get it to 1000*. I have 4 packs of them now. I used the eco block to see if they would do better then my wood. I have had my stove to 1350* but stove pipe was at 250*


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## Ashful (Nov 28, 2013)

Are you following the procedure I outline above, or is your procedure different.  The "I am closing around 400* on the cat probe," statement made me think you're doing things much differently.

I forgot to add, although I think I said it before:  I have two identical cat stoves, one on a 15' chimney, the other on 27' of chimney.  The one on the tall chimney must be run pretty close to 0% primary air, to keep stovetop temps in check.  However, the one on the shorter chimney can never be run on 0% primary air, without backpuffing.  We must keep the air open maybe 10% on that stove, but since the draft is low, stovetop temps stay in the 400's.


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## AppalachianStan (Nov 28, 2013)

No. I was trying to get stove to 800* before I closed the by pass with the prime air open to the end of the burn. Last 3 loads I have closed down the by pass and the prime air at 400*. It will only back puff at temps of 1000* or more on both ways I have tried.


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## Ashful (Nov 28, 2013)

AppalachianStan said:


> No. I was trying to get stove to 800* before I closed the by pass with the prime air open to the end of the burn. Last 3 loads I have closed down the by pass and the prime air at 400*. It will only back puff at temps of 1000* or more on both ways I have tried.


I'm having trouble following you.  800 F _before _closing the bypass?  Are you talking stove-top or catalyst temp?

Can you describe exactly what's happening, in order?  It's really not possible to piece together what's happening, from all of these various temps you've named, without the context of time, and where exactly you're measuring each temperature.


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## Woody Stover (Nov 29, 2013)

AppalachianStan said:


> Got my first long burn today at 9 hours. I closed down the bypass and the prime air at 600* to get this burn. But it started back puffing. I was wrong it does not start at the end of the burn. It starts at the peak of the burn all ways at 1000* are higher then it stop as the temp goes down. Still waiting on delivery on the chimney pipe.



9 hrs, that's a pretty decent burn. Good deal. 



> 1. Do you get all the wood cherried like a cig. Are just some?
> 2. How long should it take to get up to temp?
> 3. What should be the ideal temp to get the stove before closing down?
> 4. How do I get the temps to 1000* on the cat probe with out it back puffing and keeping the temp until it peaks?


If you have "all the wood cherried," you are creating a lot of smoke. If you close the bypass and cut _all_ the air, that can create the flash ignitions of the smoke in the box and cause a backpuff. After you close the bypass, try cutting the air in steps, as Joful suggests in #6 below. I load the Buck 91 full, but have the coals piled front to back in the center. The wood I've loaded close to the center is burning well, but the wood on the sides isn't burning. I have to do this because if I get too much wood gassing, the cat can get too hot (1800+.) Like Joful says, on a good burn I get 1500 probe temps for the first two or three hours, with the surface thermo on the stove front at 400-500.
I agree with Joful, 400 cat probe temp sounds low to be trying for a cat light-off. My Buck manual says 700-900, and the newer App 52 manual says 500-700. Once I close the bypass and cut the air in steps, if I see the cat probe climbing even without much flame in the box, I know the cat is burning smoke. I generally want 900+ on the Buck probe before I close the bypass and start cutting the air in steps. If I close the bypass with lower probe temps, I risk a "crash," where the cat won't light off. Then I would have to open the bypass and air to heat up the stove more, and try again.
With your wood not as dry as it could be, the amount of time it takes you to get the stove up to temp might be longer. Some of these cat stoves can be a little tricky to run (not my Keystone,  ) but dry wood sure simplifies everything.



Joful said:


> I'm not familiar with the operating instructions on the Appalachian 52, but this sounds awful early to me.  Normal procedure (on reload of an already warm stove) is as follows:
> 
> 1.  Open bypass.
> 2.  Load wood.  A few smaller pieces (3") on bottom to get load going, larger stuff (4" - 6") on top.
> ...


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## AppalachianStan (Nov 29, 2013)

Joful said:


> I'm having trouble following you. 800 F before closing the bypass? Are you talking stove-top or catalyst temp?


I am talking about at start up on the cat probe.



Joful said:


> Can you describe exactly what's happening, in order? It's really not possible to piece together what's happening, from all of these various temps you've named, without the context of time, and where exactly you're measuring each temperature.


I'll try.
1. Cold stove start up. just like you said. Get cat probe to 800* closed down the bypass with prime air open 100%. I get a 4 to 5 hour burn by doing this. But I would let it burn its cycle.
2. On a re load I would close down the bypass at 400*.
3. Now to get a 9 hour burn I will close down both the bypass and prime air at 800*.
4.My chimney stove pipe has not been over 250* (on the chimney Gage) with the cat probe getting to 1350*
5. Any way I do it if I close down the bypass with the prime at 100% open I have no fire in the firebox?
6.To get the temps to 800* I have to leave the door open and the bypass. Once at 800* close the door if I close the bypass fire goes out and firebox fills up with smoke. This is with Prime open or close.
7. This temp are on the cat probe.


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## Ashful (Nov 29, 2013)

Cool.  Headed out to split wood today!  Will respond tonight.  In the meantime... Stay warm!


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## Woody Stover (Nov 29, 2013)

AppalachianStan said:


> if I close down the bypass with the prime at 100% open I have no fire in the firebox


When the bypass is closed, that's a more restrictive path so less air is moving through the stove. Now, with a fresh load in my stove and the bypass closed, I can cut the air to about 1/4 open and still have flame in the box. Not a lot, but some. If I opened the air even half way (bypass closed) there would be big flame and I would over-fire the stove before long. All the wood I'm burning now has had two or three years in the stack, so it doesn't need as much air to flame up as your not-as-dry wood does. But the fact that the bio-bricks didn't burn a lot hotter for you brings me back to the draft question. I'm interested to see what happens when you get the additional 3' of chimney up there. I'm thinking that with the additional draft, closing the bypass won't snuff the flame completely, as the increased draft will be pulling more combustion air into the box. It's good to be able to run some flame in the box if you want with the bypass closed. On the Buck I can see a definite drop in the cat temp when some flame is burning some of the smoke. I can also get the stove surface temp up higher, quicker, running a little flame in the box. These aren't huge differences, but they are definitely there....and sometimes you just want to see a little flame.


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## Woody Stover (Nov 29, 2013)

With the Buck 91 on a freshly burned-in load, I've got flame unless the air is totally cut. With just a little air, the flame is intermittently on the wood, or floating above it.


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## Ashful (Nov 29, 2013)

I'm with woody at this point.  You've checked your wood, and confirmed it has acceptable MC.  You burned with bio bricks, and got the same result.  Only three options left:

1.  Operator error:  Seems we've already flushed that out.
2.  Insufficient draft:  Likely.
3.  Malfunctioning stove:  Dead mouse carcass plugging one of the intake plenums?


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## AppalachianStan (Nov 29, 2013)

Joful said:


> 3. Malfunctioning stove: Dead mouse carcass plugging one of the intake plenums?


Mark this off the list. The prime air intake and maybe top of glass is the only air that comes into the stove firebox.
At the top of the glass looks like some type of air wash but not sure.


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## Ashful (Nov 29, 2013)

Well, you know your next task, then!  Up on the roof top, click, click, click!  Down thru the chimney...


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## AppalachianStan (Nov 29, 2013)

I was hoping the chimney I ordered would have came in today but it did not.


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## AppalachianStan (Dec 3, 2013)

Just pick up the Chimney. Have it up Sat.


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## mellow (Dec 9, 2013)

Checking in to see how the stove is operating now, no news is usually good news.


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## Charles1981 (Dec 9, 2013)

I posted this in the VC encore burning thread, but no one has confirmed this is back-puffing? I am 99% sure it is but if someone wanted to view this movie I made? I think the dancing flames are supposed to be normal but the flames going out for 5-10 seconds and then wooshing back into play is the back puffing? Anyway no smoke in the house but it is really pretty to watch....

Thanks for watching the boring video. Just wanting to confirm this IS backpuffing. There is a small poof at the start and then starting around the 30-35 second mark the stove builds up to a big one. My stove will do this depending on a number of variations. 20+mph winds, ash box too full, turning the secondary closed to quickly, sometimes it just happens for no particular reason. Never get smoke in the house though.... maybe once when it was 50mph winds and power was out and trees were coming down everywhere, but that is the only time.


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## mellow (Dec 9, 2013)

Yes that is back puffing,  at worst case that is followed up with a puff of smoke being shot out of your air intake as the smoke ignites and causes an explosion.  If you are not getting the smoke shot out then I wouldn't worry about it to much, just keep an eye on it and maybe add a tid bit of more incoming air to keep a little flame in the fire to help burn the smoke.


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## AppalachianStan (Dec 13, 2013)

Mellow it has rain every Saturday since I got the Chimney and have been working late during the week. and it is suppose to rain tomorrow. Still need to get it up.


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## AppalachianStan (Dec 13, 2013)

Charles1981 said:


> I posted this in the VC encore burning thread, but no one has confirmed this is back-puffing? I am 99% sure it is but if someone wanted to view this movie I made? I think the dancing flames are supposed to be normal but the flames going out for 5-10 seconds and then wooshing back into play is the back puffing? Anyway no smoke in the house but it is really pretty to watch....
> 
> Thanks for watching the boring video. Just wanting to confirm this IS backpuffing. There is a small poof at the start and then starting around the 30-35 second mark the stove builds up to a big one. My stove will do this depending on a number of variations. 20+mph winds, ash box too full, turning the secondary closed to quickly, sometimes it just happens for no particular reason. Never get smoke in the house though.... maybe once when it was 50mph winds and power was out and trees were coming down everywhere, but that is the only time.



That is want my stove has been doing.


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## Charles1981 (Dec 13, 2013)

I don't get smoke in the house when this happens though. It is actually a really cool light show honestly. 

If it was blowing smoke in my house though I would not be happy. And it only happens infrequently and only with the stove 100% closed. Usually if i open it a 1/4 turn it stops.


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## AppalachianStan (Dec 17, 2013)

Just put on the 3' of chimney. Lets see what it will do later to night when the temp drops.


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## raybonz (Dec 17, 2013)

AppalachianStan said:


> Just put on the 3' of chimney. Lets see what it will do later to night when the temp drops.


Good luck Stan!


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## AppalachianStan (Dec 17, 2013)

I am see a little more flue temps but on the cat probe is at 800* with air all the open and bypass closed after start up a hour ago.
Are there suppose be any flames in the firebox with the air all the way open?


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## AppalachianStan (Dec 17, 2013)

Cat probe is at 900* flue at 250* every thing is closed and getting a smoke smell!


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## AppalachianStan (Dec 17, 2013)

Okay at 1000* no back puffing. but you can smell a little smoke. What would cause that?


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## Ashful (Dec 17, 2013)

Wet wood.

I'm having troubles that I _*know *_are due to wet wood, and my MM is still showing 20% on freshly split faces at 20F outside.  However, I have gotten to the point where I can feel by weight and apparent temperature, whether a split is too wet or not, and I definitely have several that are too wet.

If your cat is that slow to hit 1000F, and it's never getting up to more normal temps of 1300 - 1500 F, you are almost certainly burning wood that's a little to high in MC%.


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## Woody Stover (Dec 17, 2013)

Sounds like you're on the right track, Stan, and I agree with Joful that as your wood gets drier, you'll get even higher cat temps and heat output. Keep on stackin'!


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## Ashful (Dec 17, 2013)

Oh, I forgot to explain "apparent temperature," my own term, since I didn't know what else to call it.  When I pick up a split from the stack on the porch, out in the cold with my bare hands, I can feel the ones that are too high in MC%.  They feel colder, I think due to some moisture being pushed out to the surface and freezing.  They actually feel icy.  Extensive testing by me (6 loads per day thru two stoves) has shown that these icy feeling splits are almost always the ones too slow to take off, or to achieve proper cat temps.

Once I bring the splits indoors and they come up in temperature a few degrees, I can no longer tell the wet from the dry quite so easily, other than trying to guess by weight.  Likewise, this method falls short in summer.


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## Woody Stover (Dec 17, 2013)

Joful said:


> my MM is still showing 20% on freshly split faces at 20F outside.


If I'm not mistaken, there is some variation in moisture readings with colder wood. Try testing a big one at 20*, then bring  'em up to room temp and re-test...


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## Ashful (Dec 17, 2013)

I agree, which is why I was looking for a temperature compensation table for that meter, but I could find none.  I will have to check some at room temp, the trouble there is getting a freshly split face in my living room.


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## Charles1981 (Dec 18, 2013)

I don't know why you would still be smelling smoke if the back puffing is truly gone. Maybe it is still back puffing but just not as visibly?

Or there is a leak in the stove/gaskets (but i wouldn't expect a smoke spill with that).


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## mellow (Dec 18, 2013)

Some thoughts.  It could be coming in via your damper rod?  Take a look at that, last night while doing a reload with the damper wide open I noticed a bit of smoke come out of my damper rod hole on the front,  wasn't much but I have never seen that happen before.  Another thought would be to check the seals on your single wall pipe you have in the house,  make sure you have no leaks.

Best thing to do is have a CO alarm nearby and keep an eye on it and see if you can track it down.  Glad to see you got the additional pipe put up I truly believe that will help solve a lot of your issues.


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## mellow (Dec 18, 2013)

AppalachianStan said:


> Are there suppose be any flames in the firebox with the air all the way open?



Yes.


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## oldspark (Dec 18, 2013)

Joful said:


> I'm having troubles that I know are due to wet wood, and my MM is still showing 20% on freshly split faces at 20F outside. However, I have gotten to the point where I can feel by weight and apparent temperature, whether a split is too wet or not, and I definitely have several that are too wet


 
Well I will be outside a little later and I can play with some wood that I know is too wet to burn to see how my MM reads in the temps we have now, my MM has been right on the money so far with every thing I have tried it on but I want to see how these lower temps effect it.


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## Ashful (Dec 18, 2013)

Have you pulled and inspected the cat recently?  Every symptom you describe could be caused by a plugged cat.  You should be able to see thru it.


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## AppalachianStan (Dec 18, 2013)

Joful said:


> plugged cat


 Had the housing out Monday to clean the chimney and the cats look good.


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## AppalachianStan (Dec 18, 2013)

The smoke is coming from the by pass rod.
Glass is cleaner then it has ever been.
Can a pipe leak cause it not to draft good?
Can my cats be too small at 2" x 2" x 16" for this wood stove?


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## Woody Stover (Dec 18, 2013)

AppalachianStan said:


> The smoke is coming from the by pass rod.
> Glass is cleaner then it has ever been.
> Can a pipe leak cause it not to draft good?
> Can my cats be too small at 2" x 2" x 16" for this wood stove?


I can occasionally get a little smoke smell out of the bypass rod hole but the draft is usually good enough so that this doesn't happen.
Clean glass is probably an indicator that the added chimney length is helping. 
I wouldn't think you are losing a lot of draft through the pipe joints but it seems your draft is low to begin with, so sealing the joints certainly can't hurt....


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## Woody Stover (Dec 18, 2013)

Joful said:


> I was looking for a temperature compensation table for that meter


Someone said they were gettting 4% lower when cold....


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## raybonz (Dec 19, 2013)

AppalachianStan said:


> The smoke is coming from the by pass rod.
> Glass is cleaner then it has ever been.
> Can a pipe leak cause it not to draft good?
> Can my cats be too small at 2" x 2" x 16" for this wood stove?


If your wood moisture content is suspect you can rule that by using a few of these as a test Stan.. These are very dry so only burn maybe 3 at a time.. 

http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/redstonetrade;-ecobrick-pack-of-6?cm_vc=-10005

Ray


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## AppalachianStan (Dec 19, 2013)

Raybonz, I have tried them and had wife pick up some today.
The stove started back puff last night again. This is getting old
May wood is between 19 and 15% so I don't thank its the wood. Tried to get some kiln dried it was at 25%.
 I am going to try the eco blocks to see if that helps.


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## raybonz (Dec 19, 2013)

AppalachianStan said:


> Raybonz, I have tried them and had wife pick up some today.
> The stove started back puff last night again. This is getting old
> May wood is between 19 and 15% so I don't thank its the wood. Tried to get some kiln dried it was at 25%.
> I am going to try the eco blocks to see if that helps.


That sucks Stan.. My old catalytic DW was prone to backpuffs but your stove seems much worse than the CDW.. I would not want to deal with this either.. New stove doesn't backpuff at all.. Very easy to use and no aggravation.. Good luck Stan..


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## AppalachianStan (Dec 21, 2013)

If I run double wall stovepipe would I get more draft?


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## raybonz (Dec 21, 2013)

AppalachianStan said:


> If I run double wall stove would I get more draft?


http://www.northlineexpress.com/fir...ssories/smoking-fireplace/draft-inducers.html

This might help especially if you get decent air movement where you live..

Ray


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## AppalachianStan (Dec 21, 2013)

Ray, maybe it time to start looking for a newer wood stove.


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## raybonz (Dec 21, 2013)

AppalachianStan said:


> Ray, maybe it time to start looking for a newer wood stove.


Yup I agree! I am glad I did it! One lever controls everything on this stove. Very easy to learn..


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## Woody Stover (Dec 21, 2013)

AppalachianStan said:


> If I run double wall stovepipe would I get more draft?


I'm not sure, but I think adding the 3' of chimney would increase the draft quite a bit more than you could expect from double-wall.


AppalachianStan said:


> Ray, maybe it time to start looking for a newer wood stove.


As Ray said, some stoves are more prone to backpuff. You've pretty much addressed everything else. You've got an 8" chimney, so a stove that's 8" would be ideal. Might be able to get an easy-breathing 6" stove to work....I'm not sure how much draft you would lose.


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## tcassavaugh (Dec 21, 2013)

hope the pipe helps. just wondering, you said in you  first post that it happens when the load is almost burned up......have you tried opening the draft just a little more at the end of the cycle (sorry if I missed that). sounds like that's the easiest, especially if you know its going to happen. I have occasional problems with back puffing buts that's when I don't give the fire enough air to keep going but mine are more at the beginning if I shut it down too soon. I had a ductchewest cat stove that was notorious for back puffing unless you were running it pretty hot, and it was a primary influence to go back to non-cat stoves.....like I said earlier, I still get an occasional back puff but its because I try to shut it down too soon.


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## oldspark (Dec 21, 2013)

Woody Stover said:


> I'm not sure, but I think adding the 3' of chimney would increase the draft quite a bit more than you could expect from double-wall


Yea for sure.


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## raybonz (Dec 21, 2013)

Stan if your draft is marginal I think you'd be better off with either hybrid stove (cat + secondary burn) or just secondary burn because you get hotter stack temps with secondary burns which would heat your flue and enhance the draft.. Just my 2 cents.. I have never seen a backpuff with the T-5 and got that sometimes with the CDW especially in milder or damp weather.

Ray


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## AppalachianStan (Dec 21, 2013)

This time the back puff started around 1300*.
Ray a hybrid would be nice but at this time I not have that kind of money to put on one.
Just got in from a Buck dealer and he say the cats stove are for up north. He said a non cat stove is better down here. But the Buck 94NC is $2800.
There is a Quadra Fire 3100 on CL for $600 it is from 2004. Is this a good deal? http://charlotte.craigslist.org/hsh/4225411457.html I know it is a 6" flue don't sure how that will work. The Buck said I can go up in size not down.


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## raybonz (Dec 21, 2013)

AppalachianStan said:


> This time the back puff started around 1300*.
> Ray a hybrid would be nice but at this time I not have that kind of money to put on one.
> Just got in from a Buck dealer and he say the cats stove are for up north. He said a non cat stove is better down here. But the Buck 94NC is $2800.
> There is a Quadra Fire 3100 on CL for $600 it is from 2004. Is this a good deal? http://charlotte.craigslist.org/hsh/4225411457.html I know it is a 6" flue don't sure how that will work. The Buck said I can go up in size not down.


This time I have to agree with your dealer.. The colder the air the better your draft will be.. That stove looks to be in decent shape and should give an easy 8-10 hr. burn but I would go with a 6" flue or you will have more draft problems.. DIY liners aren't that expensive if you're handy and adding an insulating blanket to the liner will enhance the draft too.. Secondary burn stoves have a much hotter flue than cat stoves and this will probably work best for you.. Take a look at the stove and look for warping as that would indicate overfire.. Bricks are inexpensive but they look good in that pic.. Keep us posted!

Ray


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## raybonz (Dec 21, 2013)

AppalachianStan said:


> This time the back puff started around 1300*.
> Ray a hybrid would be nice but at this time I not have that kind of money to put on one.
> Just got in from a Buck dealer and he say the cats stove are for up north. He said a non cat stove is better down here. But the Buck 94NC is $2800.
> There is a Quadra Fire 3100 on CL for $600 it is from 2004. Is this a good deal? http://charlotte.craigslist.org/hsh/4225411457.html I know it is a 6" flue don't sure how that will work. The Buck said I can go up in size not down.


http://www.quadrafire.com/Products/3100-Millennium-Wood-Stove.aspx

Great specs and that looks like a great price Stan! Check out the MSRP at that link.. They still make that model too!

Ray


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## Woody Stover (Dec 21, 2013)

The Buck 94 has gotten mixed reviews here....I'm trying to think of some other 8" stoves....


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## Woody Stover (Dec 21, 2013)

But your sq. footage isn't that huge, is it? An 8" non-cat, Equinox e.g. would roast you outta there. You damn near gotta switch to 6" chimney to get the right size stove in there.


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## raybonz (Dec 21, 2013)

Woody Stover said:


> But your sq. footage isn't that huge, is it? An 8" non-cat, Equinox e.g. would roast you outta there. You damn near gotta switch to 6" chimney to get the right size stove in there.


The CL $600.00 stove would be a good fit as long as the stove is in good shape which it appears to be the case in the pic.. Long as it hasn't been abused that's a good value.. Stan will probably need to go with a 6" liner as most 8" stoves would be too big..

Ray


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## AppalachianStan (Dec 21, 2013)

Woody, I have 1500sq ft to heat. I know I have to go 6". I hope I can put a 6" liner in the 8" chimney. But until then I would like to just go 6" stovepipe to 8" Chimney.


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## Ashful (Dec 22, 2013)

I had not previously seen your location, SC.  My previous backpuffing troubles were definitely temperature related, only occurring at outside temps above 40F.  I always just assume everyone here is in a cold climate, and this could definitely be a factor, when combined with your short chimney.

I ran a little experiment over the last week, which I think might be of interest, in this thread.  Some may remember me complaining a week ago, that I had burned up all the dry wood stacked near the house, and I had to go move another cord from my wood lot up to the house.  What had been left at the house in the days prior to that was stuff that had been split too big to dry in the time I had for seasoning, and so it was large splits with moisture trapped in the middle.  My last two loads thru my stove on the shorter chimney had been smouldering messes, and had thoroughly clogged my catalytic combuster on that particular stove.  That stove was left cold all week, as I was busy with work, and figured I'd get around to cleaning it out and firing it back up this weekend.

Well, rather than pull it out and clean out the creo that was clogging the cat (no fun, anyway), I decided I'd try to burn it clean.  I loaded the stove yesterday with a medium load of nicely dry walnut, medium to smaller splits.  I got it going furiously, with stove top temp = 600F and single wall flue temp at 650F, before closing the bypass.  The fire died out, and then the stove started back-puffing.  Stove top temp quickly dropped to 450F and flue temp to 200F (or less?).  I subsequently went back to bypass, got the stove and flue heated up again, and then closed the bypass.  This time, the fire took a few minutes longer to die out, and then I started getting smoke gently flowing out of every crevice (air control, intake, etc.).  One more cycle like this, and I eventually got the cat up to 550F.  Just a minute or two later, the cat temp shot up to 1500F (indicated it was finally burning clean the creo it had been coated with the wet load the prior week), before settling back down around 900F.  I only had three nicely dry small/medium splits in the stove, and 900F is a normal cruising temp for that size load.

So, I was able to generate all of the same symptoms as AppalachianStan, by simply running a clogged cat.  What was of more interest to me is that one can (with some effort and pain) burn clean a completely creo-clogged cat.  I don't think the same could be done with an ash-clogged cat.


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## AppalachianStan (Dec 22, 2013)

Joful, I get the back puff on eco- block too. The cats will be glowing red no fire in the firebox then a fireball at the top of the firebox and out come smoke. I now have 18' of flue. I just can not run this stove at night with this back puffing going on. I do not want to kill us as we sleepy.  I have a co alarm. My wood is 15 to 19%. I will get it up to 900* close it down the temp will go down to 800*. It will run at 800* for a hour or 2 then the temps will start to go up. as the cats get hotter and starts to glow it starts to back puff. I have tried closing it down at 600*, 700*, 800* and 900* on start up and on re load but it will back puff.


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## AppalachianStan (Dec 22, 2013)

I am tired of put money and time in this wood stove. I would like to fix the problem with it but I don't know what do to do to fix it. I am at $2000 in this stove set up. If I go with a newer one it will cost me more money. I know that with BK they say to use DW stovepipe to maintain the flue temps. I can get it up to 300* on the stovepipe but it will drop down to 200* when I close down. The only Thing I know to do is to get the newer set up.


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## raybonz (Dec 22, 2013)

AppalachianStan said:


> I am tired of put money and time in this wood stove. I would like to fix the problem with it but I don't know what do to do to fix it. I am at $2000 in this stove set up. If I go with a newer one it will cost me more money. I know that with BK they say to use DW stovepipe to maintain the flue temps. I can get it up to 300* on the stovepipe but it will drop down to 200* when I close down. The only Thing I know to do is to get the newer set up.


Stan what about that CL stove you posted for only $600.00? That would be perfect for you..


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## AppalachianStan (Dec 22, 2013)

Ray if he still has it in 2 weeks from now I will go look at it and if it looks good I will get it then.


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## raybonz (Dec 22, 2013)

AppalachianStan said:


> Ray if he still has it in 2 weeks from now I will go look at it and if it looks good I will get it then.


I'd look now if interested then place a binder on it if I wanted it otherwise you might miss the boat..


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 2, 2014)

The old Appalachian is cooking tonight. Cat probe is at 1500*, stove pipe is at 250* and stove top is at 500. Every time the wind picks up to cat probe go up to 1500*. It is down to 1450*. I am glad I did not load it up. there are 3 eco-block and 4 small splits in there. Put this load in at 8:00 pm tonight house is nice and warm at 75* with the wind chill is going to get down to 15* tonight. Prime air is closed all the way but can't close the by-pass. The by-pass is closed to a 1/4 if I close it all the way it back puff. This may be a long night need to go to bed but I would like to see the stove cool down a little be for I do. Just let you all know how things are going. No advice need it. Have to run this old girl until I can get the money up for a newer stove.


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 2, 2014)

Cat probe temps are down to 1200*. All good and good night Hearth Room. I love this site. This is like FB to me.


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## Ashful (Jan 3, 2014)

Your last two posts sound like many of my late-night posts from last year.  You'll get thru this.

Are you familiar with Craig2Mail, or any of the other Craigslist watch utilities?  You might want to set some local watches up for wood stoves, so you don't miss a good deal when it comes along.


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 3, 2014)

Joful I don't have a smart phone. I will check in to them. Thanks


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## mellow (Jan 3, 2014)

Just thought of something,  does your bypass shut fully closed?  The bypass on my 52 has a stopper on it, it is left open about 1/4 inch.  That may just be the solution anyway.


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## coltfever (Jan 3, 2014)

The bypass on my 52 closes all the way. No gap at all.


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## mellow (Jan 3, 2014)

Might have been something they added to newer year models?  Mine is a 2011.


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## coltfever (Jan 3, 2014)

Ok I was just looking at your review thread on the 52 and on the picture of the 8 inch opening I noticed about 1/4 inch of the bypass rod touching the back of the damper housing. I might have to check mine again. I could have spoke too soon.


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 3, 2014)

all the way mellow. If I open about a 1/4" there is about a 1/8" gap between the damper plant and the housing.


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 5, 2014)

Its been cold here but this coming Monday and Tuesday is going to get really cold here with 9* on Monday and 15* on Tuesday. But the wind chill is going to put us at -1* on Monday night. I don't know how my old stove will do with those temps. I will try and pack it fill tomorrow to see how it will do.
Mellow, How close to the damper housing to you pack your wood?


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## mellow (Jan 5, 2014)

I pack it as full as I can, right up to the damper for overnight burns.


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 5, 2014)

Thanks Mellow.


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 6, 2014)

Will just clean out the chimney and sealed all stove pipe joints with furnace cement for tonight cold spill. Hope this will help keep the flue temps up.


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## mellow (Jan 6, 2014)

Don't be afraid to give it more air with good dry wood,  I think with your damper slightly open you will be good to go.


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 6, 2014)

Mellow when you say more air. Do you mean prime air or by pass (damper rod)?


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## mellow (Jan 6, 2014)

Primary air.


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 6, 2014)

Most of the time primary air is open all the way.


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 6, 2014)

Wow I have never seen this much flame in this stove they are lazy flames. Not get me wrong but it has been 30 mins cat probe is at 900* stove is at 250* at 12" and 200* at 18" and the primary air is open on a cold start up.


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## Ashful (Jan 6, 2014)

Stan,  thinking back thru this thread (it's been a while), have you ever verified that your primary air lever is actually working?  I mean, could the linkage have come disconnected somewhere back inside the stove?  Could a mouse have climbed into the air inlet at some time and died in there?  I may have said this before, but that stove should take off like a rocket with air open all the way, with outside temps anywhere below 40F.


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 6, 2014)

Joful, the primary air is just a box with a slider and 1" x 1 1/2 x 6"  tube that go up the sides of the door opening for a air wash. The top of the tubes are open and it has 6 holes on each side. I have blow air up the tubes and they are clean.


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 6, 2014)

This is better the flue temp are a lot warmer then before.
This was before: 18' of chimney, 8" flue and wood between 15 and 19%. It can take me up to 30 mins or longer to get stove pipe to 300* and cat probe up to 800* at the same time. I always have to live the door open to do this. Close door wait a min or two( most of the time flames go out) then close down the by pass to about a 1/4" wait a min or two no flames with the prime air open all the way and temps will drop to 600*. Re-pet until I can keep 800* temps on the cat probe. in a hour or two the temps will hit 1000* it will say here for about 2 hours.This is always the way the stove dose on start up or reload. If I would let the Flue get to 500* most of the wood would be gone. By the way I have only seen temp at 1500* twice


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## mellow (Jan 6, 2014)

So with the added chimney your getting a better draft in the cold weather which means you really need more chimney if you want to burn in warmer weather, either that or swap out the single wall for double wall and see if that helps.


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 6, 2014)

I may try double wall later. But more chimney is not going to happen. It is 5' above my peak now. I read that in a Quadra-Fire manual This: 
Your Quadra-Fire stove was designed for and tested on a 6” (152mm) chimney, 12’-14’ (3.66-4.27m) high,
measured from the top of the stove. The further your stack height or diameter varies from this configuration,
the probability of performance problems increases. In addition, exterior conditions such as roof line,
surrounding trees, prevailing winds and nearby hills can influence stove performance.
http://hearthnhome.com/downloads/installManuals/250_3500.pdf
So if later I get Quadra-Fire I will be over the stack height for it. Way would they say this any way with that Florida test they did with a short Chimney?


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 6, 2014)

Mellow, are you sure you by-pass is set 1/4" open? I just do not want to overfire this stove tonight? Cat probe is at 1000* right now and primary air is open 1/2".


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 6, 2014)

I am at 1400* only 45 mins in ti the burn


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## Ashful (Jan 6, 2014)

At that point, I'm usually lowering the air, Stan.  1/2, then 1/4, then 1/8, then closed, on 5-10minute increments.  If you see cat temps falling below 1000F, back up a hair.  My cat usually cruises 1300 - 1500, although 1700 is not uncommon in the early part of a burn.

My bypass is either full open or full closed, so you have another level of complexity I do not.


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 6, 2014)

Joful, the primary air was closed at 1400*. Now it open to get some more air.


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 6, 2014)

I just got a 4 hour burn on half a load, all coals now and cat probe is at 700* Is that to short of a burn are is it due to outside temps?


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## HotCoals (Jan 6, 2014)

AppalachianStan said:


> I just got a 4 hour burn on half a load, all coals now and cat probe is at 700* Is that to short of a burn are is it due to outside temps?


That's pretty short for a cat. How big is the box?


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 6, 2014)

I really not know.


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## HotCoals (Jan 6, 2014)

AppalachianStan said:


> I really not know.


Well anyways try turning the air down to almost nothing when the stove is in cruise mode. You prolly have tried that already though I bet.


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 6, 2014)

HotCoals said:


> You prolly have tried that already though I bet.


Yes at 800*. I may try 600* this time. It worries me if I pack it full it will over fire. When on half a load it will get to 1400*


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## HotCoals (Jan 6, 2014)

AppalachianStan said:


> Yes at 800*. I may try 600* this time. It worries me if I pack it full it will over fire. When on half a load it will get to 1400*


Nothing wrong with the cat getting to 1400.
Your stove maybe way diff but my stove top temps in cruise are rarely over 650 ..usually around 500-550 for hours then they drop off slowly.


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 6, 2014)

My stove in the pass (before today) close by-pass at 800*, close primary air at 1000* some time it will drop in temps but it will get up to about 1200* then slowly drop off to 600* when I re load. But I just put in all most pack load for the over night burn. close by-pass at 275* at 18" on stove pipe, but cat probe is not in the burn zone?


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## HotCoals (Jan 6, 2014)

AppalachianStan said:


> My stove in the pass (before today) close by-pass at 800*, close primary air at 1000* some time it will drop in temps but it will get up to about 1200* then slowly drop off to 600* when I re load. But I just put in all most pack load for the over night burn. close by-pass at 275* at 18" on stove pipe, but cat probe is not in the burn zone?


Well the wood may not be charred enough to off gas good enough to feed the cat.
My cat is slow to get hot sometimes also. Give it maybe 15-20 mins for some good off gassing to occur.
That said you may have to char the load some more.
Try when charring up the load to leave the cat engaged ..I always engage my cat when the probe reads active..which is like 9:00 on the gauge.


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 6, 2014)

I am now coming in to the burn zone. Usually I not have any flames but tonight I have some lazy flames licking the cat on the right. going to try and close down the primary air as soon as it gets to 600* to try a get a 10 hour burn out of this load. then off to bed and pray that it not overfire.


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 6, 2014)

Close down the primary air at 600* jump up to 700* and one split has a lazy flame. hope that right.


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## HotCoals (Jan 6, 2014)

AppalachianStan said:


> Close down the primary air at 600* jump up to 700* and one split has a lazy flame. hope that right.


Sounds good..the cat should come to life all on it's own soon.


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## HotCoals (Jan 6, 2014)

AppalachianStan said:


> I am now coming in to the burn zone. Usually I not have any flames but tonight I have some lazy flames licking the cat on the right. going to try and close down the primary air as soon as it gets to 600* to try a get a 10 hour burn out of this load. then off to bed and pray that it not overfire.





I cant over fire my cat stove with the air all the way down and I don't think you should be able to also.
Are you talking about super high cat probe temps or stove top temps when you say over fire?


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 6, 2014)

Think so to it at 800* now. Just not use to see any flames


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 6, 2014)

HotCoals said:


> Are you talking about super high cat probe temps or stove top temps when you say over fire?


Both, but 1400* is the highes I have seen. and 650* on stove top with fan blowing on the gauge.


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## HotCoals (Jan 6, 2014)

AppalachianStan said:


> Both, but 1400* is the highes I have seen. and 650* on stove top with fan blowing on the gauge.


Sounds fine. You will not overheat that cat as long as flames are not beating it to death.
You should be able to get a nice 10hour burn easy in this cold if that box is close to 3cu.ft. I would think. The air needs to be all the way down or close to it.


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## HotCoals (Jan 6, 2014)

I just loaded on some real hot coals 10 mins ago.
Already I'm 2/3 on my cat probe ..stove top 550 and the cat is getting brighter by the minute..I shut my air down  just a few mins ago... had closed the by pass within a few mins of closing the door.
She is ready for the night.
Show me what you got mother nature..I ain't afraid of a little cold and wind..lol.


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 6, 2014)

Is this a lazy flame? now it is 1000* with gas flames as will.


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 6, 2014)

going to bed.


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## HotCoals (Jan 6, 2014)

AppalachianStan said:


> Is this a lazy flame? now it is 1000* with gas flames as will.


Yes,looks perfect! 

Don't mess with it..lol. it will get better for awhile then latter the secondary flame will stop but the cat will keep on eating.


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## HotCoals (Jan 6, 2014)

BTW..you do have fire alarms right?


Just joking but you should have some!
All will be fine!


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## HotCoals (Jan 7, 2014)

Dang..now I wonder how his stove is doing.


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 7, 2014)

Made it though the night HotCoals. Yes I have 2 fire alarms and 1 CO. Only bad thing is I have no water.


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 7, 2014)

I think the wind help the draft last night to get the temps I had. Now it is back to it old self. Load it up at 7:45 this morning took a hour to get it up to 800* and at 900* it started to back puff. pulled out by-pass rod for about a min and closed it back down to 1/4" open.


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## Ashful (Jan 7, 2014)

I see you're at 11F this morning.  That's plenty cold to where we shouldn't be blaming warm weather for your troubles.

At this point, I think a personal visit is in order.  Any experienced hearth.com'ers in the Clover SC area, willing to go inspect and experiment with Stan's rig?  There must be something we're just overlooking.


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 7, 2014)

Up to the temp I was getting last night. Just don't understand the back-puffing with the by-pass rod open 1/4".


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## coltfever (Jan 7, 2014)

Stan its too bad you just can't find the problem with your stove. Do you have a dog house air opening on your stove ? If so I want you to try this. After you get your fire going up to say 600 on your cat probe and you close the bypass to engage. Open the doghouse up about 1/8 of an inch. Reason I say this is it sounds like your stove needs alittle flame after you get into about 1 1/2 to 2 hours burn cycle. Sounds  like the reason for backpuff the stove is starving for air. The air from the doghouse is going directly into the bottom of the firebox and it should hold a small flame. As long as there is a flame I don't see how the stove would backpuff.


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 7, 2014)

coltfever said:


> Do you have a dog house air opening on your stove ?


Not sure? But the air slider was closed but right now I am at 700* and no flames it was up to 900* and the slider is open?


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 7, 2014)

Here is how the air flows


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## wood4free (Jan 7, 2014)

coltfever said:


> Stan its too bad you just can't find the problem with your stove. Do you have a dog house air opening on your stove ? If so I want you to try this. After you get your fire going up to say 600 on your cat probe and you close the bypass to engage. Open the doghouse up about 1/8 of an inch. Reason I say this is it sounds like your stove needs alittle flame after you get into about 1 1/2 to 2 hours burn cycle. Sounds  like the reason for backpuff the stove is starving for air. The air from the doghouse is going directly into the bottom of the firebox and it should hold a small flame. As long as there is a flame I don't see how the stove would backpuff.



The 52 Bay manual states the doghouse air should only be used in the first 5 minutes of starting a fire and then be fully closed. From my understanding the regular draft controls should be used to control the burn.


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## coltfever (Jan 7, 2014)

Wood not meaning this in a rude way this only a suggestion for stan because what we are trying to do is pinpoint what is causing his backpuff. He is operating his stove as he is suppose to its just not working as the manual  states. This is just something to try only. The manual is not helping stan in this case. As someone mentioned to me on here about 2 years ago as long as there is a flame there is no smoke to backpuff and he was right.


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 7, 2014)

Coltfever, is the dog house the slider under the door for start up air? Also remember the 52 bay menual is for the newer stoves. Also the newer stoves have 2 air controls on the door for the air wash. So the newer stove have 3 more controls that my stove dose not have.


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## coltfever (Jan 7, 2014)

Yea Stan the doghouse is the slider under the door. I was looking at the picture of your stove and thought they might be a lot alike. But there not. Oh well scrap my idea.
I do wish there was something that would get you going like it should. Seven pages of info and nothing works. I have to say you haven't given up on it.


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 7, 2014)

Coltfever. It is a nice looking stove and I just not have the money right now for a newer one. Make due with what I have until something better comes a long. I would like to get this one fixed. I hate given up on it. Some one may come a long needing info on this stove.


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 7, 2014)

It is like I need to get more air in the box. Some type of control that can be close tight when it is not needed. Right now I have a box full of coals that I am trying to burn off with the primary air and by-pass open all the way. Temp have got back up to 800* on cat probe.


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## HotCoals (Jan 7, 2014)

Stan the by-pass should be closed right now. You're losing to much heat up the flue with it open.
At times it sure does sound like a draft problem..maybe blockage somewhere,I dunno.
But from what you say it sounds like it could also be a intake problem...maybe a pressure thing going on.


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 8, 2014)

HotCoals, By closing the by-pass all the way it will back puff every time at 1000* but by open it up 1/4" it will not. yes I know there is a lot of heat going up the flue doing this. I don't want to be asleep when this stove starts back puffing and die from CO.


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## Woody Stover (Jan 8, 2014)

> the air slider was closed but right now I am at 700* and no flames it was up to 900* and the slider is open?


With the bypass open on the Buck and just a couple of small splits burning on low, I've taken the cat probe up to 1200+, probably would go to 1400 if I let it keep building up heat, so probe temp alone does not confirm that the cat is burning. I can see the cat glowing if I look in around the hole for the bypass rod, when the cat is really cranking. Then the probe can go as high as 1800+. [Yes, the Buck is a different stove and peak cat temps may be different.] I can't remember if you said that there was a way on your stove that you could see the cat glowing....have you ever seen any glowing to indicate positively that the cat was indeed burning?



AppalachianStan said:


> the primary air is just a box with a slider and 1" x 1 1/2 x 6"  tube that go up the sides of the door opening for a air wash. The top of the tubes are open and it has 6 holes on each side. I have blow air up the tubes and they are clean.





AppalachianStan said:


> Here is how the air flows


So the air ducts just end right there, six inches up, they do not go to an air wash at the top of the fire box? If that's the case, I wonder if smoke is pooling in the top of the fire box, then igniting all at once, giving the back-puff. If this is the case, maybe this older design proved to be problematic, and that's why they changed the air supply system on the later models of the 52?

But I don't understand how "the tops of the tubes are open" as you said. Wouldn't that prevent most of the air from coming out the holes in the sides of the tubes, as in your air flow diagram? (Could be I'm misunderstanding you....)


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 8, 2014)

Woody Stover said:


> But I don't understand how "the tops of the tubes are open" as you said. Wouldn't that prevent most of the air from coming out the holes in the sides of the tubes, as in your air flow diagram? (Could be I'm misunderstanding you....)


No just as you understand the top of air tube are open. I have thought about put a plate of steel on top and sealing it with furnace cement to see what that will do.
Some times my cats will glow and some times they will not.
Try to see if it will back puff now with the by-pass closed.


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 8, 2014)

Mellow and all who have the 52 bay is you door handle that you open and close the door with hollow all the way through to the in side of stove. My door handle is a tube but it is stop up half way in the tube and the last time it back puffed smoke came out the tube.


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## Woody Stover (Jan 8, 2014)

AppalachianStan said:


> No just as you understand the top of air tube are open. I have thought about put a plate of steel on top and sealing it with furnace cement to see what that will do.


It sounds like there must be another air inlet in the top of the fire box for air wash. Is your glass pretty clean? When you had the heat shield off to replace the cat, did you see any air channels along the top inside of the fire box? The Buck has two; One for the air wash, and this one, half way back in the fire box, fed by the shotgun air control.


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 8, 2014)

Woody Stover said:


> heat shield


There is no heat shield.



Woody Stover said:


> another air inlet


There is only the air inlet I posted earlier.


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## mellow (Jan 9, 2014)

My door is way different in terms of it having the air wash built into the door along with the primary air controls,  when I get a back puff the smoke comes out the primary air controls.


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## mellow (Jan 9, 2014)

If Appalachian was a more stand up company I would tell you to go ask them if they have a refurb sitting around,  they are made not too far away from you in Asheville.  I would tell you to point them to all these threads that you have been trying to get their stove to work without success but they did not seem computer literate from the conversations I have had with them in the past, heck, show up with some pot brownies and they would probably let you run the factory for the day.


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 9, 2014)

Mellow had the same problem when I called. It took me a week to talk to some how worked in a office for some one out side the factory.It took another week to talk to the tech at the factory.


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 22, 2014)

I am still around. Man this stove would be awesome if it did not back puff. Last 7 loads I have closed the by-pass all the way down and getting 12 hour burns. The house is warm its 80* in the stove room. If I can just get it to stop back puffing. It will back puff off and on for about an hour and then it stops. Usually it starts about 2 hours into the burn.


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## HotCoals (Jan 22, 2014)

AppalachianStan said:


> I am still around. Man this stove would be awesome if it did not back puff. Last 7 loads I have closed the by-pass all the way down and getting 12 hour burns. The house is warm its 80* in the stove room. If I can just get it to stop back puffing. It will back puff off and on for about an hour and then it stops. Usually it starts about 2 hours into the burn.


I think what you're talking about is more like spontaneous combustion then so called back puffing.
Gas's build up then either a flame happens or the the gas's just get hot enough and then poof!
A real slow draft can do that.
It's mostly because the stove is oxygen starved.


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 22, 2014)

Yes the gas's build up then flames and the flames push out smoke from the gaskets into the stove room.


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## HotCoals (Jan 22, 2014)

AppalachianStan said:


> Yes the gas's build up then flames and the flames push out smoke from the gaskets into the stove room.


Just a tad more intake air should stop that.
Either your draft is slowing too much from low flue temps or you have some kind of blockage or the flue is to short are my guess's.
Or a combo of any.


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 23, 2014)

How do I get more oxygen into the stove? The chimney is to tall now for the height of the house. I need away to get more air in the stove but have it where I can close it down on a cold windy night. Would this work by taken out one of the side windows and putting in a steel plate with a knob on it to get more air in the stove when it need it?


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 23, 2014)

It dose it with the prime air open or closed. Chimney is 8" by 18'.


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 23, 2014)

like right now I have a big pill of coals burning down for a re-load. To get them burn down I have to open the door, the prime air and the by-pass to get air to the coals.


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 23, 2014)

HotCoals said:


> you have some kind of blockage


No blockage. I would like someone who knows stove to come and look at this beast. But that will not happen. Have to make due with it as is for now.


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## BrotherBart (Jan 23, 2014)

Close the dang bypass and pull the coals forward. And after you do, use the ash rake and push the whole pile backward. Everybody pulls the coals up on top of ash. Dig the ash rake in front of the coal bed and push back and then just rake the real coals off in the gap in front.

People b_itch about the coal bed when half of it is the ashes under the coals.'


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 23, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> use the ash rake and push the whole pile backward. Everybody pulls the coals up on top of ash. Dig the ash rake in front of the coal bed and push back and then just rake the real coals off in the gap in front.


Did this. Just closed the by-pass. This is going to be a long night. Put this load in at 11:30 this morning and it is still putting of some heat.


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## BrotherBart (Jan 23, 2014)

AppalachianStan said:


> Put this load in at 11:30 this morning and it is still putting of some heat.



And your complaint about that is what?


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 23, 2014)

Bed time but need to reload. Have to whet until coals are down so I can. Thats all. I love the heat the stove puts off. Just wish I can get it to stop spontaneous combustion and smoking for that hour it does it.


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## AppalachianStan (Jan 23, 2014)

How much would it coast to get a pro to look at the stove?
Just reloaded the stove all most bed time.


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## mellow (Jan 23, 2014)

Problem is finding a "Pro" that has working knowledge of how that stove works is going to be very slim pickings.

I would try calling Appalachian now that you have done all this new work to the stove and see if you can get one of their engineers on the line to help you, keep calling them till you get help, the worst they can say is no we don't support that stove anymore.  Let them know you don't have money to buy a new stove and have been trying to get theirs to work, maybe a guilt trip will buy you some time with one of the guys that designed that stove?


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