# powersave



## sleepie (Apr 24, 2008)

i don't know if this thred exists or not---but i have installed this about 15 months ago,,and i save about 40.00 per month off the electric bill--i have kept close records--i just thought i would let you guys know--it did work for me---pat--

http://www.power-save.com/1200.html


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Apr 24, 2008)

I've been thinking of putting one of these on my house.  I've spoken to a few electrical engineers who all say that it is legit, not snake oil.  The actual savings vary depending on the type and amount of electric motors that you have on your home's circuit.  For folks with big forced-air blower motors and air conditioning compressors and the like, the savings can be large.

Joe


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## eba1225 (Apr 24, 2008)

I installed one last month and have been tracking closely.  Unfortunately, I have not see much in the way of reduction yet, but am looking forward to seeing what happens in the summer when the A/C is running.  Needless to say I do not have too many motors.


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## sleepie (Apr 24, 2008)

i must also say that i was told the closer you live to industry the more you save---so if you live on the outskirts of town   --you don't save as much,,,something about the grid fluctuations,that industry causes,,i live 1000 ft or so from a large grocerie store and the center of town,,


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## Czech (Apr 25, 2008)

I'm very interested in this, if others have done so please post your experience. I also noticed that they do solar, and on their rebate chart it says 'free' for MN. MSG, you still out there, thoughts?


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## Redox (Apr 25, 2008)

There was some discussion of these things in this thread:

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/13519/

My offer still stands: If someone wants to send me one, I have the instrumentation to check it out.

Chris


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## sleepie (Apr 25, 2008)

all i can say is  IT WORKS---pat


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## eba1225 (May 13, 2008)

So far have been running for about 1 month and have seen minimal impact from the unit.  Will see what the summer brings.  Hopefully there will be more impact on the usage.


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## Redox (May 14, 2008)

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I am going to have a hard time believing any claims on these things unless they are set up in a lab.  Your energy consumption is going to vary greatly from month to month depending on the weather and personal use habits.  Product testimonials are the easiest way to sell something and the hardest to disprove.

Chris


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## mayhem (May 14, 2008)

Accoring to their FAQ, I would not benefit from thier product.  I don't have an air conditioner, only one fridge/freezer, appliances are energy star rated, house is too small, no forced hot air.  

They clain whole house surge protection as a benefit of using this product, which alone could be worht the cost of admission...but without a written surge protection guarantee and an assiciated insurance policy that covers damaged equipment replacement cost their clain of surge protection is worthless in my opinion.

Its an interesting enough product that I'd like to see independant lab test as well.  Unfortunately we are going to see more and more snake oil products coming onto the market over the coming months and years, all claiming to save massive amounts of electricity, heating oil, gasoline and whatever else has a spiking price point.  Buyer beware!


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## Jay H (May 14, 2008)

mayhem said:
			
		

> Accoring to their FAQ, I would not benefit from thier product.  I don't have an air conditioner, only one fridge/freezer, appliances are energy star rated, house is too small, no forced hot air.
> 
> They clain whole house surge protection as a benefit of using this product, which alone could be worht the cost of admission...but without a written surge protection guarantee and an assiciated insurance policy that covers damaged equipment replacement cost their clain of surge protection is worthless in my opinion.
> 
> Its an interesting enough product that I'd like to see independant lab test as well.  Unfortunately we are going to see more and more snake oil products coming onto the market over the coming months and years, all claiming to save massive amounts of electricity, heating oil, gasoline and whatever else has a spiking price point.  Buyer beware!



I'm in the same boat, no central A/C, I have window shakers which weren't even used last summer... Small house, one fridge... My appliances are probably not energy star rated but I only do a load of laundry every other week and I air dry.   My electric bill each month is only ~$20 each month anyway..

jay


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## MacKay (May 15, 2008)

For most this probably is not worth the investment.  

http://powerelectronics.com/power_management/motor_power_management/power-factor-correction-0507/


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## Redox (May 15, 2008)

DMM said:
			
		

> For most this probably is not worth the investment.
> 
> http://powerelectronics.com/power_management/motor_power_management/power-factor-correction-0507/



Using the numbers in this article, the average 3 ton A/c unit will save about 10 watts of power or about $1-2 per year.  We'll all be dead and gone before it pays for itself.

I really don't like the claims of surge protection as this effect will be very mild compared to a real surge protector using MOVs.  You could buy a lot of real surge protectors for $300 and be better off.  You could also buy a LOT of CFLs for $300 and save much more...

Chris


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## sleepie (May 15, 2008)

at one time we thought the world flat-----then we sailed--and now we know-i have it,,i don't sell it and i know it works---just thought i would let everyone know that it works,,,oh and by the way find someone who owns one on the internet and show the quote where they are unhappy with it,,i could find none,,,and you all know if it was snake oil some owner of it would have said so-just my thoughts---pat


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## mayhem (May 16, 2008)

Can you let us know what you have in your house as far as the types of devices teir website says the product works well with?  Do you have forced hot air heat and air conditioning for example?  Their FAQ lists about a dozen line items that they say will make the system pay off for an owner and if you have any 2 of them you might want to consider it.  

Have you done any other things that might offset your energy costs?  New cfl bulbs, chage supplier, etc.?


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## eba1225 (May 16, 2008)

I have a 2 ton AC, a ref, a freezer, a well pump, and pond pump. As well as a elec dryer (but I know it won't help with that too much).  So far I am seeing a consilation of the usage, where I would have some days that used 20 kW and some days that used 60 kW but most were at 40kW, I am seeing less of the 60 kW days but more of the 40kW days.  So I guess you could say that it is lowering my usage, but not by the amount that they advertise.  Am waiting to see what happens with the A/C as I have not run that beast ye this year.

Just my .02.

Erik


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## burntime (Jun 4, 2008)

Its capacitor based, so it levels out the draw, I can not see how it can do that much.  Like others have said in the high amp draw like a 2 ton A/C unit I can see maybe.  Hope I am wrong and I want one in a month???


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## eba1225 (Jun 4, 2008)

Well so far I am seeing a 10% drop in my average usage, from an average of 44 to 38 kw/day.


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## Jerry_NJ (Jun 4, 2008)

Interesting, I have a heat pump, so I use a lot of "Motor power" both summer and winter.  Also have two refrigerators, washing machine..can't think of any other motors, i.e., inductive power factor.  Sounds like this thing corrects the power factor toward more resistive like, i.e, voltage and current in phase.  I don't know how that affects the electric meter, that's where you are being measured.  I believe the power company likes to see a capacitive reactive load, to counter balance the inductive reactive load from motors that most customers have.


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## sleepie (Jun 4, 2008)

i have the following in the house --firdge,washer,dryer,freezer,garage door opener,blower for furnace,2-ceiling fans,floresent lights,hot tub,garbage disposal,hair dryer,cpap machine,blower in my tv--i know its there i can hear it--fans in computers, window air conditioner,electric pressure washer-cfl bulbs--now although these are not running all the time,,these are  the things that they say you save on---i save at least 40.00 a month  average for the year--


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## SteveT (Jun 4, 2008)

When this thread started a few weeks ago I sent the following note to three electrical engineers (friends and guys I’ve worked with over the years). I am always interested in finding a way to save energy and completely lacking the ability to decipher electrical issues.

My question to the was, “What do you think of this? Seems like someone running a lot of inductive devices could save a bundle if this is true; think it is? It seems that it just uses capacitors to effectively eliminate Power Factor losses; science or snake oil?  Any chance it would be harmful to motors? http://www.power-save.com/1200.html”

The first response was, “Looks like fraud to me. Reminds me of an old J. C. Whitney catalog item called an electronic supercharger.  It was actually just a funny looking distributor rotor.  The catalog claimed that it turned normal "cold electricity" into "hot electricity".  This increased horsepower and gas mileage. The power companies distribute capacitance on their lines where needed to improve power factor.  You do not actually get charged for reactive (inductive) power except where the reactive current might generate a small increase in wiring losses - probably not noticeable.  The meter only measures real power not reactive or imaginary power. In theory, you should be able to hang a big inductive load on your meter and not see any speed change.  If you put real power back onto the line, it should reverse direction and they should send you a check”.

The second response, “I agree that this is snakeoil sales.  Reactive/imaginary power cannot perform useful work, but must be transmitted across the power distribution lines - increasing current and related losses for no purpose.  Anything that minimizes this current saves the electric company money.  One of my old textbooks says that the amount of iron and copper (i.e., cost) in a power transmission system is inversely proportional to power factor, so it behooves the power company to keep the power factor as high as possible.  To that end, they use strategically-located capacitance to correct the power factor. Interestingly, the product spec mentions “Let Through Voltage” which is a made-up term as far as I can tell, and all kinds of irrelevant information, but not capacitance (directly) which is the salient information.   

The third response was verbal, but in agreement with the other guys’ responses.

These are credible guys – I’d be VERY leery about believing the hype.


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## sleepie (Jun 4, 2008)

ok guys ---i just keep my imaginary 40.00 a month---and the other guy here will keep his 10% a day reduction----and also remember how many people in the day said THE WORLD IS FLAT--and they were experts in the day....


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## mayhem (Jun 4, 2008)

eba1225 said:
			
		

> Well so far I am seeing a 10% drop in my average usage, from an average of 44 to 38 kw/day.



Holy crap thats alot of juice!  38kwh/day is like 1100+kwh a month!!  This is normal?  I use upwards of 20kwh a day during peak season mid winter when the heat is running the most as are the fans, tv sets and the lights...this time of year I'm using up about 13kwh a day and wondering why its so darn high.

I'm glad yoiu're getting a reduction in your usage, but wiht that kind of consumption I'm thinkint it would be really, really easy to cut another 10-20% easily.  Any chance that the reduction you've seen is more due to you using your accessories in a more conservative manner?

I'm not trying to suggest that this product is either a miracle pill, nor the second coming.  Just palying devil's advocate and trying to eliminate other possible sources of power conservation.


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## Jerry_NJ (Jun 4, 2008)

I heat with electricity, a geothermal heat pump, and run well over 1000 KWH per month, so that's not unusual for me.  If I heated with wood (ha!!), my electric useage would drop to a little less than half that I suppose.  

I to am an electrical engineer, but electronic/computer/management not power distribution, so I read with a vector algebra level of understanding of real and reactive/imaginary power...and that's why I too question how the subject device can provide power savings...but I surely like the idea given my high power usage.


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## mayhem (Jun 4, 2008)

Is that 1000kwh a year round figure?


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## Jerry_NJ (Jun 4, 2008)

Nope, it was over 1,600 KWH in January and February, and down to 1,057 KWH  $158.49  for March.  A low reading for me seems to be just under 1000 KWH last November, must have been warm.  So my average is around 1,200 KWH per month.  This is without the use of wood or other supplemental heat, looks like the best I can do with my new insert that should be installed in the next couple of weeks, is trim off about 500 KWH during the real cold months, or about $75 per month at the current electric rates...that is not a lot given the cost of wood (money and/or work), but I do have some free wood and I do enjoy a cozy warm room due to heat coming form the fireplace insert.  It'll be a long time trying to pay of my several thousand $ investment in the new insert/installation.


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## eba1225 (Jun 4, 2008)

Jerry am righ there with you we consume anywhere from 1000KWH in the spring and fall to as high as 1700KWH in the summer.

I am really looking forward to the summer to see what this thing will do against the A/C load.  Granted it will take a year or two to pay the thing off, but a ROI of 2 years is acceptable.  

Erik


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## burntime (Jun 4, 2008)

My electric bill is 40-60 bucks a month, so I am thinking...300 bucks plus install and I can save 4-6 bucks...granted a high bill with the ac is over 100 but even so 3 months a year save 10.  At that calculation that would take 30 months for just the unit...   When you take into account the time value of money and the install it probably would be somewhere around a 10-12 year payback with my current yearly usage.  This is not a smart move for me...some others it may make sense.


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## eba1225 (Jun 4, 2008)

Burntime, 

I agree, if my bill was as low as your I would not consider it.

Eri


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## Redox (Jun 5, 2008)

I'll be keeping my $300 until someone can come up with something more scientific that their own house as an example.  I am never going to believe that anyone consistently uses the same amount of electricity month to month and year to year.  

BTW, the world was proven round by performing an experiment.  This is called science.  Someone come up with some science that supports these claims and I'll buy one.

Chris


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## sleepie (Jun 5, 2008)

yes it was an experiment----but not everyone did it----don't buy it,,,just keep paying while we experiment with it--we will keep you informed on how its working----pat


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## eba1225 (Jun 5, 2008)

Redox,

I totally agree that experimentation is the way to go here. And also agree that usage year over year is rarely the same.  Take my case for example, my daughter is in those teen years with the showers, hair dryers and multiple loads of laundry.  So for me this year might even e higher than previous years.  

But to get back to your point, I agree experimentation is the best means to determine if the system works as expected.

Erik


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## mikeyny (Jun 5, 2008)

A  simple solution to save money is to insulate your attic. Attic insulation gives you the most bang for your buck over ANYTHING you could ever buy or build. No snake oil involved just good old cellulose insulation. You can do it yourself for next to nothing.
                                                                           Mike


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## Jerry_NJ (Jun 5, 2008)

Here's something from Wikipedia: "Reactive power flow

In power transmission and distribution, significant effort is made to control the reactive power flow. This is typically done automatically by switching inductors or capacitor banks in and out, by adjusting generator excitation, and by other means. Electricity retailers may use electricity meters which measure reactive power to financially penalise customers with low power factor loads. This is particularly relevant to customers operating highly inductive loads such as motors at water pumping stations." 

Now the only way I can see this could affect a reduction in (real) power usage for a normally inductive load is if the "Electric retailer had some way to make the electric power meter respond to penalize an inductive load, which would/could be reduced by a capacitive corrective device.  I look forward to future reports by the "testers" along with some numbers, measured numbers.


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## Redox (Jun 6, 2008)

I have the lab open.  Anyone want to loan me one?  24 hours and I'll send it right back...

Chris


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