# Looking at purchasing an Indoor Wood Boiler



## Bill1472 (Feb 2, 2010)

I am looking at purchasing an indoor wood boiler, i have been looking at 
AHS wood gun, does anyone have one of these that they can tell me a little about it?

i have also been looking at the econoburn and New Horizon EKO, TARM, Greenwood

can anyone give me more information on these boilers,

how well they burn, how much wood they use, warenty issues, reliabilty, 

i am looking at heating 4000sq ft, maybe a little over


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## stee6043 (Feb 2, 2010)

Read on, Bill.  Just about every thread here in the boiler room is about one of the brands you've mentioned.  I don't think you'll find many negative reviews on any of the aforementioned brands.  It all comes down to cost and what details you find more valuable.  I have an EKO and love it...


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## WoodNotOil (Feb 2, 2010)

Welcome Bill Murray! (I love your movies though I am guessing you are not that Bill Murray..)  

The EKO, TARM, and Econoburn are all really comparible products and run on similar principles.  The Econoburn is nice because it is domestic.  I would highly recommend any of these in gerneral.

The WoodGun is a slightly different design in that it cuts off O2 entirely and claims to not need storage as it can cycle on/off without losing efficiency.  I have heard however that it chews through refractory very quickly which is a maintainence hassle and can be costly.  All gassers need refractory replaced every so often (3-5 years), but the WoodGun seems to need it more often and the replacement seem to cost a lot more.

The Greenwood has secondary burn, but otherwise operates on a different design then most gassers.  I have heard they can be difficult to get setup and burning just right.

Your application will require a good deal of btu output and so I would suggest one of the larger Econoburn units with a large amount of storage (ie 1-2000 gallons) in the form of pressurized tanks (like recycled propane tanks).  OR a Garn.  The Garn is boiler and storage combined.  These are two great options for large spaces.  Just my $0.02 on the matter...


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## Bill1472 (Feb 2, 2010)

Why the need for such a large storage? 1-2000 gallons? how necessary is this? what is the advantage?


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## WoodNotOil (Feb 2, 2010)

Bill Murray said:
			
		

> Why the need for such a large storage? 1-2000 gallons? how necessary is this? what is the advantage?



That is due to the square footage you are trying to heat.  Heat storage adds loading flexibility and increases efficiency a little.  It also allows domestic hot water in the off season.  You could of course get by without storage, but you would have to fill the boiler regularly throughout the day or burn fossil fuel if you can't tend it regularly.

The exact boiler size you need would depend upon the insulation situation of your house.  You should do a heat loss calculation.

1-2000 gallons of storage also isn't that big.  There are people here with 2k gallons heating half the space you want to.  The benefit is that with a correctly sized boiler and storage, you could theoretically start one fire a day for all of your heat needs.  These systems are a balance between convenience and cost.  Give us some more details on your application and we can give you some better feedback.


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## Bill1472 (Feb 2, 2010)

how long will the gassification boilers  run on a load of wood for, do they burn more wood than a 
regular wood stove?, i am looking at the AHS woodgun, and heating 4000 sqft,

i am used to feeding a fisher wood stove, does the positive pressure cause a faster burn?


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## Singed Eyebrows (Feb 2, 2010)

Bill Murray said:
			
		

> how long will the gassification boilers  run on a load of wood for, do they burn more wood than a
> regular wood stove?, i am looking at the AHS woodgun, and heating 4000 sqft,
> 
> i am used to feeding a fisher wood stove, does the positive pressure cause a faster burn?


 Typically you put kindling & small wood into for a startup, maybe half full or less. Then from 1 to 2 full fireboxes of good dry splits or rounds. This will heat your house & bring the storage back up to temp. I'm loading half fireboxes full because I need to take care of an excessive draft problem. Look at the Econoburns on Ebay, they are giving them away & when those are gone I doubt there will be more at anywhere near that price, Randy


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## WoodNotOil (Feb 2, 2010)

Bill Murray said:
			
		

> i am used to feeding a fisher wood stove, does the positive pressure cause a faster burn?



A more complete burn for shure.  The two technologies aren't directly comparable.  During very high demand the most it would need to be loaded would be approx. 4 times per day.  It really depends though on the size of the boiler and your heat load.  The advantages of a gasification boiler over a wood stove is having more even heat at a controlled room temperature and getting domestic hot water from the boiler.  As I stated before storage just makes this more flexible, allows use in the shoulder seasons without excessive idling, and can give you DHW in the summer.

To help more we really need to know how well insulated the house is, do you have forced air or hydronic radiators/baseboards/radiant, how much fossil fuel and wood your house consumes now to heat it.



> muncybob - 15 January 2010 02:24 PM
> 
> The Wood Gun manual states center bricks should last 10 to 15 cords and larger refractory should last 10-15 years. This is a maintenance item I had not considered when looking at various boilers. If I get 15 years on the larger I’ll be happy but I would have thought the “nozzle” brick should last longer than 10 cords!





> Fred61 - 07 January 2009 02:27 PM
> 
> The WOOD GUN convinced me that wood gassification was the only way to heat with wood but it had some issues. It would eat up it’s insides in one heating season. I found myself paying more to replace ceramic nozzles ,door seals and other refractories each Spring than it would have cost me to heat with oil. It did have one featrure that was great! A motorized inlet flap. Never overheated nor made much creosote. Only a small amount in the loading chamber. However unless I used a good firewood that “coaled up” well the fire would not restrart after long idle time. Ran it for ten years and then sent it to the scrap heap.
> 
> ...



These are peoples posts from an early thread on the WoodGun.  It would make me ask a lot of questions before buying one...

If I remember correctly they are rather expensive as well.  I think for the cost the Garn would be better.  If I was going to spend a lot on a boiler I might even consider a Froling which has a lot of cool controls that help with burn efficiency and controling storage etc.  Again just my 2 cents based on what I have read.  I run a Tarm and have been very happy with its performance and quality.  The Tarm Innova boilers are worth a look too...


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## Singed Eyebrows (Feb 3, 2010)

Wood gun is an excellent boiler. The center bricks(nozzles are about $100.00) From everything I have read the Garn is a superb boiler with about a $14,000 boiler only price. Heaven only knows what refractory prices are on the Froling as the controller is $1000.00 as of about 1 year ago. The quote you see from Fred61 was an older Eschland Wood Gun & they had trouble with air leaks. Air leaks in a carbon steel WG will destroy it. There are many good boilers including the Tarm Froling etc. Right now the most bang for the buck is on Ebay with the Econoburns. You can get a 150,000 btu new USA made boiler for $4995.00. Thats a tough act to follow. As mentioned though you still need to determine size required. There are other sizes of Econoburns available if it turns out 150,000 btu isn't correct, Randy


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## Tree farmer (Feb 3, 2010)

Consider what type of heating system is in your house as well, baseboard, radiators or radiant it makes a difference at what temp you will need to keep the system at.  I keep mine on the high side 185-190 because I have old crappy undersized baseboard but it works.  Also consider your chimney set up, I have had issues with an outside 3 flue chimney with both draft and condensation.  These things run so efficient little heat is sent up the chimney, with such a large mass of brick and block with little heat going into the flue it stays cold the smoke condenses and ends up coming out on my basement floor.  I know of two people who have inside chimneys with none of my issues and same setups.  Lastly I do like my EKO but I did look at an Econoburn this past fall at the fair and was impressed with quality and appearance plus it is American made.  I would go American made if I was to do it again for ease of replacement parts etc.


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## 91220da (Feb 3, 2010)

Greenwood is an easy set up and operation.  Low Tech system but works great.  Only problem is they are out of business.  Look into Seton.  The greenwood is built on Setons design.  They are still and business and have been for a long time.  If I had to do it all over again I would have bought a Seton.


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## RobC (Feb 3, 2010)

I have a Tarm Solo series and that will run with out storage. To optimize efficiency, human and boiler output, storage is nice. I ran for the first winter with out storage and then added storage last summer. I have 1000 Gallons pressurized for 3200 ft, we get excellent solar gain and the house is quite tight for 20 years old. We don't use a lot of DHW. 1000G gets me through most winter days that are above 30F daytime with 1 load started 5 or 6 PM. When it gets single digits nights and teens or twenties days I need to start to burn around 3PM and add another 2/3 load. This works fine and I didn't have room for more storage easily. If you can get  more than 1000G it might give you more flexibility. I'm thinking MI is colder than MA in general. 
In any case not hearing the oil burner turn on is awesome. Getting a gassifier is also definitely the way to go.
Rob


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## Rory (Feb 3, 2010)

I have a Tarm with storage.  I'm not the type of person that really likes to tell someone else what to do, but I would strongly recommend including the storage right from the get-go.  It's what makes the whole thing a "system" and not just a glorified wood boiler.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Feb 3, 2010)

Rory said:
			
		

> I have a Tarm with storage.  I'm not the type of person that really likes to tell someone else what to do, but I would strongly recommend including the storage right from the get-go.  It's what makes the whole thing a "system" and not just a glorified wood boiler.


 Absolutly! My opinion exactly. The tank is not a maybe or an afterthought & it's too easy to say I'm "going" to install one year after year. I bit the bullet & had a new one made although 2 500 gal propane tanks would have worked fine. I say this knowing that other members run without storage & are happy with their system, Randy


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## Bill1472 (Feb 3, 2010)

i'm Back ,What do you use for storage?not easy to add now. what I burn now is 2 bags of pellets 80lb, wood stove in living room all day and night and  propane,when needed. 93 year father-in-law likes it warm. "so do I"   but my gas boiler is only150,000 btu and only runs part time by itself,  am thinking bigger is not better. I use-to have an old coal stoker that 
I feed with wood, used about 30 cord, and heated well, but pain to clean! " history" i am a U.S.A.buyer as much as i can be. Any info is good. I have burned wood for 34 years,just looking for a better
 boiler      No money from movies yet!    thanks Bill.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Feb 3, 2010)

Bill Murray said:
			
		

> i'm Back ,What do you use for storage?not easy to add now. what I burn now is 2 bags of pellets 80lb, wood stove in living room all day and night and  propane,when needed. 93 year father-in-law likes it warm. "so do I"   but my gas boiler is only150,000 btu and only runs part time by itself,  am thinking bigger is not better. I use-to have an old coal stoker that
> I feed with wood, used about 30 cord, and heated well, but pain to clean! " history" i am a U.S.A.buyer as much as i can be. Any info is good. I have burned wood for 34 years,just looking for a better
> boiler      No money from movies yet!    thanks Bill.


 Bill; You've let your career slide,lol. Most people use 500 gallon used propane tanks. If I understand right you use 80 lbs of pellets + some propane into a 150,000 btu boiler per day. I'll let the experts figure your btu requirements, my gut says 200,000 btu wood boiler though. If you have storage a larger boiler is a +. Good luck, Randy


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Feb 3, 2010)

Welcome aboard Bill! Is Andie MacDowell as Hot as she appears?

Ok, FWIW, I heat ~4k [] with a GreenWood 100 and no storage. If you're wood will always be less then perfect and you like things real simple, these refractory-mass natural-draft units are good for that. But they are probably not as efficiant as some other models, especially with storage. As already stated, GreenWood is belly up. But I thinl Seton is still actually making enhancements to the original design, though I think the new manufacturer is also unresponsive :shut: 

If I was starting over I would purchase a Viessmann Vitolig200. A few people here will tell you they are not available Stateside . . .but then, travel to Cuba is illegal too, and happens every day.

Be wary . . . there are a few salesmen lurking on this site :sick:


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## WoodNotOil (Feb 3, 2010)

Singed Eyebrows said:
			
		

> Wood gun is an excellent boiler. The center bricks(nozzles are about $100.00) From everything I have read the Garn is a superb boiler with about a $14,000 boiler only price. Heaven only knows what refractory prices are on the Froling as the controller is $1000.00 as of about 1 year ago. The quote you see from Fred61 was an older Eschland Wood Gun & they had trouble with air leaks. Air leaks in a carbon steel WG will destroy it. There are many good boilers including the Tarm Froling etc. Right now the most bang for the buck is on Ebay with the Econoburns. You can get a 150,000 btu new USA made boiler for $4995.00. Thats a tough act to follow. As mentioned though you still need to determine size required. There are other sizes of Econoburns available if it turns out 150,000 btu isn't correct, Randy



I am glad to hear that they seem to have fixed this problem Fred referred to.  Otherwise I have heard good things about WoodGun.  I had heard they were pretty expensive though...  

Bill if you are looking for USA made then Garn & Econoburn are two great options.  If you run without storage at first, then the Econoburn (especially being on sale right now), would likely be the more economical option.  You could always add some propane tanks for storage later.  Sounds like you are already used to loading several times a day, so that would not be an issue.  People who are away from the house all day really like the flexibility storage gives them to burn when they are home, but have heat all the time.  For those situations it is important to size the boiler and storage on the large size, so that one or two fires produces and stores enough heat for the entire day.


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## RobC (Feb 3, 2010)

I'll I was getting at is some stoves you can add storage at a later time. This allows one to defer costs. If you have a future plan where the storage is going to be, it can be plumbed in easily. Just leave some Tees in the supply and return line..... 
I don't know if that is a possibility with all boilers. Do some boilers require storage to work properly ?
If this is a DYI install by adding storage at a later date you break up the project a little. Time and money.....
One real advantage of storage is during the summer for DHW.... One fire every 4 or 5 days.... NICE !
As far as sizing I would lean towards the 200,000k unit too. If you run with out storage for a season just don't fill up the fire box all the way, put in 1/2 loads. Once you add storage it doesn't make any difference if you a little to big, any extra heat goes to storage anyway.
Rob


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## Fred61 (Feb 3, 2010)

WoodNotOil said:
			
		

> Singed Eyebrows said:
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How many contributors to this forum have 10 years experience operating a Wood Gun? I'm not a guy that's running on autopilot, not aware of what's going on around me. I do analyze problems and make corrections when I'm able to do so. 
As far a I can see, there have been no appreciable design changes in the Wood Gun since I bought mine. The air leaks came from the door gaskets which were continually eroding and were almost impossible to keep up with.
It's interesting that when I was replacing center bricks, they were $200.00. It was reported recently that they are now selling for $134.00 and now I see above that they are $100.00. Pretty soon they'll be giving them away.

When I started shopping for boilers a couple years ago, the first unit I looked at was the Econoburn. I liked the unit and thought it was very well made. The reason I didn't buy it was that I misinterpreted the way it operated. The working unit I observed had creosote leaking from the flue pipe. What I understood at the time which I guess was wrong, was that the combustion fan didn't completely shut down but continued to run at a very low speed. I concluded that this was the cause of the creosote by having a slow smoldering fire. I now realize that these units will make creosote if not run hot with a minimum of idling.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Feb 3, 2010)

Fred61 said:
			
		

> WoodNotOil said:
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 Door gaskets were upgraded along with the flap sealing material. Sorry your WG self destructed but to keep saying that they are made exactly the same is not exactly analyizing anything. To continually bash WG isn't in keeping with your other well thought out posts. I'd like to get along with everyone, sometimes that isn't possible, then you just need to steer clear, Randy


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## Hunderliggur (Feb 3, 2010)

Jumping in late, I have an Orlan Paxo 40 that I like very much.  I got it from Mark at AHONA (one of the forum sponsors).  It is an updated model from the EKO.  My choice of a gassifier wasthe reduction in smoke from the flue.  We liv it a vally and the smoke could be annoying to us and our neighbors (who are far away anyway).  No, I am not a salesman for Paxo or any other wood system.


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## Fred61 (Feb 3, 2010)

Singed Eyebrows said:
			
		

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You lost me. Please explain what steer clear means.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Feb 3, 2010)

Fred61 said:
			
		

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 I was talking about myself Fred. I'm going to try to steer clear of you. If I can't hopefully Goose will step in. If he doesn't I will handle it. My apologies to members for the non technical post, Randy


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## Fred61 (Feb 3, 2010)

I would find it to be very strange that my past experiences with a particular boiler would be stifled by this forum. It would be like saying " if you can't lie about your experiences, then don't say anything at all....or.... If you are going to say anything negative about a product, then your outa here"!

I thought at first that "steer clear" meant that you were throwing me off the forum but I wondered if you had the authority to do that. I now understand that you can easily stay clear of me. I have a  brother-in-law that I steer clear of.


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## RobC (Feb 3, 2010)

Let's all try to play nice the sand box isn't that big......
Rob


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## Bill1472 (Feb 4, 2010)

Where do you get  a propane tank,and about how much? in northern michigan .Do you know the size off hand?


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## Singed Eyebrows (Feb 4, 2010)

Bill; They seem to run from about $200.00 to $500.00. Most members use the 500 gallon size. If you are able to stand them upright so much the better, they work well horizontal too, Randy


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## WoodNotOil (Feb 4, 2010)

Bill Murray said:
			
		

> Where do you get  a propane tank,and about how much? in northern michigan .Do you know the size off hand?



Try contacting your local propane dealers and salvage yard to find them.  There are a few heating companies that will sell them already modified for use in heating systems.  AHONA is one, Smokeless Heat does too.  I am sure there are others as well.  A propane tank will need some modifications to be used as storage, so weight the cost of buying and modifying yourself against buying one that is already modified.  Either way it is still way less money than buying the commercial storage options...


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## Hunderliggur (Feb 4, 2010)

Bill - I seriously considred one of the flexible tanks or building my own until I looked at the life expectancy of the liners at high (>180F) temps.  I think my steel propane tanks will well outlive any liner tank.  I had not thought of vertical mounting, just make it is securd VERY well. 2 tons of water in a tank falling over will cause damage.


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## Northwoodsman (Feb 4, 2010)

Bill Murray said:
			
		

> Where do you get  a propane tank,and about how much? in northern michigan .Do you know the size off hand?


Bill,

These tanks are readily available in northern MI.

Please call me at 231-342-3271 for more info.

Thanks,

NWM


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## muncybob (Feb 5, 2010)

Fred61 said:
			
		

> WoodNotOil said:
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## Bill1472 (Feb 5, 2010)

do any of the boilers have issues when loading wood being positive pressure, 
do they smoke when the door is opened, do the fans shut down when the door is opened a little
is there any issue with smoke at any time, door seals, are there any issues with the refrectory tubes on the econoburn
i know that they need to be replaced every so often, how much are they, how hard are they to change.  Once a year/five years?


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## Fred61 (Feb 6, 2010)

muncybob said:
			
		

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## Bill1472 (Feb 6, 2010)

does anyone have the dimensions of a 500gal propane tank?


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## leaddog (Feb 6, 2010)

Bill Murray said:
			
		

> does anyone have the dimensions of a 500gal propane tank?



Most 500gal tanks are 37in x 10ft. 
There are a few that are about 44x8ft but they are hard to come by. 
I have several 500gal for sale here in west mich. 
leaddog


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## muncybob (Feb 6, 2010)

Fred, I'm not sure what has changed on the gaskets as your description seems to fit what are on the doors now(5/8 inch high density fiberglass rope). I don't recall exactly what they said they had changed in that area. The doors are adjustable. I can only speak from a relatively short time but so far so good. The air inlet flap was improved and as long as you keep the gasket clean(part of the weekly cleaning routine with a little soap & water) it seems to work fine. I am impressed with the efficiency though as our temps have been below average this winter and I've used less wood than I expected esp. since some of the oak was not as seasoned (30%)as I had hoped.

Bill, regarding smoke on the WG: I removed the smoke shield as it seemed to get in the way of loading. With it reinstalled I rarely get smoke out the door when loading. It also helps to only load wood when it's basically just hot coals(part of the "learning curve"). The fan on the WG runs continually while in burn mode and shuts off once up to operating temp.  The only other smoke issue I had was before I sealed all the seams on the flu pipes. We no longer have any smoke smell in the house...and only a faint smell in the basement where the boiler is located.


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## Andrey (Jun 22, 2010)

Hi, I’m new to gasification (I have fireplace insert in my house) and my house is split level (4 levels) and with insert, I have 80 degree in kitchen but 65 in my master bedroom.  So I start looking into gasification boilers (have free wood) and find one person locally selling new Greenwood 100 for $3500 and 200 model for $4500.   I have 4000 sq ft house.
Is $3500 are good price for the 100 model unit or I should go to Tarm or EKO?
Thanks.


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## WoodNotOil (Jun 23, 2010)

Andrey

I would do a little more reading here before taking the plunge.  I think Greenwood went out of business and if I'm not mistaken they are just a copy of a Seton anyway.  Both are built in a different way from downdraft gasifiers like the Tarm and Eko.  To size your boiler you will need to do a heatloss calc (http://www.builditsolar.com/References/Calculators/HeatLoss/HeatLoss.htm) and then determine whether you want storage right off or not.  If you plan to do storage now or in the future, it is a good idea to oversize the boiler just a little so that you would be able to meet demand and charge storage at the same time.  Another way to determine size of boiler and storage is to figure out how much time per day you want to spend burning wood and size both to be the most convenient for you time.  There are some here that have several thousand gallons of storage and can light fires whenever their time allows.  I would suggest doing the heatloss calc, reading more threads, and then posting your own thread with the information about your situation and ask for suggestions then.  Good luck!


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