# Sending 500 gallon tanks verticle...



## Coal Reaper (Mar 9, 2013)

This is how i spent my day. Round two tomorrow.


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## arngnick (Mar 9, 2013)

Nice, they are pretty tall is this building their final resting place? How are you planning on insulatiing them?


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## Coal Reaper (Mar 9, 2013)

Yeah. They are staying there forever.  Tanks are 13' and bottom of truss is 12.5' so we had to line things up just right.  Spray foam insulate. Them and the trench and the boiler room in barn.


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## JP11 (Mar 9, 2013)

Oh I remember.  Mine barely fit.  Had to lift them a half after I had them stood up, just so I could thread on fittings.


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## bioman (Mar 9, 2013)

Looks like quite a project, I remember when i done that, Glad it's behind me now. You'll like it when your done though. Nice job !


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## Coal Reaper (Mar 9, 2013)

Ty


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## avc8130 (Mar 10, 2013)

That looks great.  When the weather breaks I'll have to take a ride down and check it out in person.

ac


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## arngnick (Mar 10, 2013)

Do you know what brand or method of foam you will use? I use a DIY product called Foam-it-Green....it works great but is very pricey!


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## Coal Reaper (Mar 10, 2013)

Mission accomplished


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## Coal Reaper (Mar 10, 2013)

avc8130 said:


> That looks great.  When the weather breaks I'll have to take a ride down and check it out in person.
> 
> ac


I just got back from a quick ride.


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## Coal Reaper (Mar 10, 2013)

arngnick said:


> Do you know what brand or method of foam you will use? I use a DIY product called Foam-it-Green....it works great but is very pricey!


Got a guy coming to measure this week. Closed cell $0.90 per board foot.


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## arngnick (Mar 10, 2013)

Coal Reaper said:


> Got a guy coming to measure this week. Closed cell $0.90 per board foot.


 
That is comparable to the price of the DIY kits I always have a place to to put any extra...The closed cell foam is the best way to insulate the tanks though.


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## BoilerMan (Mar 10, 2013)

Nice job, yet another job that a good bumper winch is good for, not just pulling your friends out!

TS


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## Coal Reaper (Mar 14, 2013)

arngnick said:


> That is comparable to the price of the DIY kits I always have a place to to put any extra...The closed cell foam is the best way to insulate the tanks though.


 
2 LBS CLOSED CELL INSULATION IN WALLS AND CEILING OF BOILER ROOM
900 sqft with an average nominal thickness of 1”
2 LBS CLOSED CELL INSULATION SPRAYED ON 2 HOLDING TANKS
312 sqft with an average nominal thickness of 4”
2 LBS CLOSED CELL INSULATION IN DITCH 6”X6” BY 154’ LONG, FROM BARN TO HOUSE
$2,647

i was expecting closer to $2k...


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## arngnick (Mar 14, 2013)

Coal Reaper said:


> 2 LBS CLOSED CELL INSULATION IN WALLS AND CEILING OF BOILER ROOM
> 900 sqft with an average nominal thickness of 1”
> 2 LBS CLOSED CELL INSULATION SPRAYED ON 2 HOLDING TANKS
> 312 sqft with an average nominal thickness of 4”
> ...


 
The foam is not cheap but very effective...The kits that I buy are 602 bd/ft for $680.00 shipped. That includes a $50 discount since I have bought from them before. If you decide to go this route I can get you the coupon code.


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## Coal Reaper (Mar 14, 2013)

arngnick said:


> The foam is not cheap but very effective...The kits that I buy are 602 bd/ft for $680.00 shipped. That includes a $50 discount since I have bought from them before. If you decide to go this route I can get you the coupon code.


i would need 4.33 kits for same coverage.  would be skimping if order 4 and more money if bought 5.  might as well have this guy do all the work and cleanup but thanks for the code offer!


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## arngnick (Mar 14, 2013)

Coal Reaper said:


> i would need 4.33 kits for same coverage. would be skimping if order 4 and more money if bought 5. might as well have this guy do all the work and cleanup but thanks for the code offer!


 
No problem... when I figured the amount I did not consider that the foam on the tanks was 4" thick...that makes a big difference.


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## Tennman (Mar 14, 2013)

CR, what did you do to prepare or purge the tank for welding? Nice job BTW.


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## Coal Reaper (Mar 14, 2013)

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/when-you-dont-notice-an-unplugged-hole-in-bottom-of-tank.106945/

was going to flush with water but didnt do the second one when i realized they both had open holes in the bottom.  just vacuumed out the inside.


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## Tennman (Mar 14, 2013)

Ahhh.... Once you cut that big hole it was easy to get inside to pressure wash or vacuum. I presume you blew fresh air in before you hit it with the hole saw or is that 2" hole from a torch. I've heard of the propane like being absorbed in the metal or something but don't know how dangerous that can be to my welder. The link to your post is helpful. Thx


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## Coal Reaper (Mar 14, 2013)

i did not blow air in before hole saw (i wish i could cut that good with a torch!)  in my limited research on leftover propane gas in the tank, its seemed the only repercussion was a flame out of the other holes for a few seconds so i did not invest much time preventing that.  no problems, no flame.  it wont explode if not contained.  i was not worried much after discovered holes in the bottom.  with all the scale in the tanks i imagine it had more than adequate time to vent out.


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## Tennman (Mar 14, 2013)

Thanks.


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## tmudd (Mar 18, 2013)

Foam insulation is pricey, but very effective. Closed cell is the best. Another alternative is to build a box out of rigid foam.   I used double layer of 3" thick ureathane roof deck insulation gapped an screwed with self tapping screws with plastic washers to metal studding. Before  using rigid foam I wrapped the propane tanks with fiberglass insulation, then rigid foam panels then spray can foam the cracks. I don't know how it fares to srayed foam. I do know my heat standby loss with no load is about 20 degrees in 24 hours. Is this excessive?
TLM


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## Floydian (Mar 18, 2013)

tmudd said:


> I do know my heat standby loss with no load is about 20 degrees in 24 hours. Is this excessive?


 
Does seem excessive. You have 1000 gallons, right? That would be 8,330 btus per degree x 20 degrees=166,600 btus over 24 hours or 6,942 btus/hr.

Noah


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## Coal Reaper (Mar 18, 2013)

i hope i dont see that much, especially since the barn where the foamed tanks will be is uninsulated and its cold to begin with in there.  i am doing spray foam because the guy will be here for the trench anyway.  i hope 4" is adequate but if it is not i will box them in with foam board.


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## JP11 (Mar 18, 2013)

Coal Reaper said:


> i hope i dont see that much, especially since the barn where the foamed tanks will be is uninsulated and its cold to begin with in there. i am doing spray foam because the guy will be here for the trench anyway. i hope 4" is adequate but if it is not i will box them in with foam board.


I told my guy I wanted 5 inches.. so I would get a solid 4.  He did close to 8 in places to make sure I got my 5!  

After they were foamed... I was still losing a lot of heat around the valves that he had kept the foam off.  So I boxed the whole works in with studs and 3/4 inch plywood.  Filled the box up with blow in cellulose.  I've had to get in to one part to clean my sticky aquastat once.. but it wasn't so bad.  I have to replace one temp probe this summer when it gets a bit warmer outside.  

Setup is good..  I don't have near the losses you are talking about.


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## Coal Reaper (Mar 19, 2013)

i really dont know how much of a difference diffusers make, especially since i am splitting flow between two parallel tanks.  i see some guys really put a lot of thought/time/effort towards them.  anyway, i didnt want to be thinking "coulda, woulda, shoulda..." after i got everything welded together so this is what i whipped together to go in the top of the tanks.


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## avc8130 (Mar 19, 2013)

Fancy.


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## Floydian (Mar 19, 2013)

Hey Coal Reaper,

Nice looking install you have going!

I can't imagine you would need any kind of diffusion with those tall, skinny tanks with the flow rates you will see through each tank. But it cant hurt as I see it.

Are you using the lk810 loading unit? And are you using your vertical storage as your overheat protection? You have a pretty ideal setup for it, IMO.

That will be a tight little boiler room, what are your plans for make up air?

My wife and I sure are happy with our 37.

Noah


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## Coal Reaper (Mar 19, 2013)

yes to lk810.  what flow rate can i expect with this?  what setting is yours on?
yes to vertical storage as overheat protection.  dean at smokeless said because of the 13' height of tanks i could probably run even without the loading unit circ.
i will put a vent or two through the walls with flappers for make up air.
i gotta get this install moving faster, only about 50 gallons of oil left!


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## Blue Tornado (Mar 19, 2013)

Flow rates to storage appears to be a misunderstood topic. Ewdudley has some good info within the following thread concerning this.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/help-choosing-a-circulator.107039/


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## Coal Reaper (Mar 19, 2013)

yeah, i have been following that thread.  as i posted there, it seams most end up on the lowest setting to cycle the water less times.  i havent done any research on the loading unit that came with my boiler and was just curious what the velocities being injected into my tanks were.


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## maple1 (Mar 19, 2013)

My lk810 is on low speed - it appears to use an ordinary 3 speed Grundfoss 15-58 circ with a gray paint job.


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## Blue Tornado (Mar 19, 2013)

Coal,

You have an awesome system going there, thanks for the postings. I will follow your procedure when prepping tanks; drill hole, insert vacuum, flush and continue. So simple. The only difference being the ceiling height, you have the room to go vertical.

My permanent install will happen this summer and I am hoping that the Taco Bumblebee will be ready for us to use as boiler protection. Meanwhile, plans are to use a Grundfos 15-58 on low to charge storage.

Good luck on getting up before the oil is gone!


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## Coal Reaper (Mar 19, 2013)

Thanks. The flush was an choice. I didnt bother with the second tank, just vacuumed. 
Why are you against a loading unit? Price?  I did not investigate other options as it was included in my deal.


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## Blue Tornado (Mar 19, 2013)

Yes mostly the price of the loading units. Additionally the consideration of replacement parts as the loading unit consists of a pump, gauges, and valve. Whereas a Danfoss valve is just a Danfoss valve or a Bumblebee is just a Bumblebee. Don't get me wrong, for boiler protection the loading units are a good thing and serve the intended purpose. Some of us are looking for the least expense to the same end is all. If the loaders were say $300 it would be a nobrainer.


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## Coal Reaper (Mar 19, 2013)

I keep justifying expenses of this install with "its just a small percentage of the total budget"


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## avc8130 (Mar 20, 2013)

Coal Reaper said:


> I keep justifying expenses of this install with "its just a small percentage of the total budget"


 
That logic works until you spend 20% more on a significant portion of the total system and suddenly $10k turns into $12k but you really could only afford $11k.


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## Blue Tornado (Mar 20, 2013)

Coal Reaper said:


> I keep justifying expenses of this install with "its just a small percentage of the total budget"


 
Too funny, I understand that part but the snowball rolling down the hill doesn't.


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## Coal Reaper (Mar 20, 2013)

hey, im not saying thats the correct way to go about things.  hell, i cant afford any of this.  but, its less unaffordable than oil over the next 3 years...


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## Blue Tornado (Mar 20, 2013)

Even if the budget doubles there is still a payoff point. Every summer when the propane supply announced their prices I had an instant attitude. Wood heat will always be considerably less than the other fuels so I feel better about what I am shelling out to complete this system. My budget is also going over its original amount.


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