# The cheese they try to put in stove now



## summit (May 12, 2009)

I have seen what i see as a disturbing trend in woodburning units over the last few years. Many producers are installing chessey ceramic baffles in the woodstove on the market. There are some (lopi, PE, jotul, woodstock) that still stick to steel, cast, and or bricks in their baffle which hold up to impact, but many out there do not. Napoleon, archgard, englander, hearthstone, dutchwest, regency, enviro, vermont castings ( the list goes on ) have a thin ceramic board which punctures easilly and flakes off chunks within a year of use. 
I understand the reflective and high k factors these boards possess help these stoves to pass epa standards, and they are most likely very modular and cost efficient, but what gives? You plunk down 2 grand min. for a quality stove, and within a year you puch out the baffle from impact and flaking. As someone who sells/installs/ services about 10 different lines, i find myself in the moral dillema of selling someone a stove to move the inventory without having to acknowledge these shortcomings (as we do not want to be seen as carrying an inferior product).  
Most often, these parts are covered by a limited warranty. usually in the type there is a line that goes to the effect of; " warrantied for breakage due to thermal stress, but not for damage due to impact, misuse, etc." This line makes the customer catch the tab for a new broken stove, or the dealer who must eat it out of his own pocket (because who can say they never hit the baffle in the stove when they are tossing a log around, or stuffing the last chunk in for an all night burn! it's 400lbs of steel, and i gotta worry about breaking the inside?!!). Without the baffles, these stoves do not operate up to par, and much efficiency shoots up the chimney! Then there is the cost.. at least 100 bucks for the part, another 100-200 to install. 
Others use this stuff in the back of the stove... have you ever seen the foam stuff that surrounds the catalysts in the cat stoves? or the reburners in many top load non-cat stoves? in the manual it tells you to clean catalysts every 30 days, and the reburn chambers several times per season! These assemblies get fragile quickly after firing, and when you have to move them around or stick a vaccum hose in them, watch out!
What is the general opinion out there? is anyone else as peeved as i am when i see this in all the newer products coming down the pipe?


----------



## flewism (May 13, 2009)

I don't no, but my 2 year old Napoleon 1401 insert needs new baffles.  They are some type of fiberboard not ceramic, but they are not durable. $25 each on line and I need two of them.  This is my first wood burner other than regular fireplace.


----------



## johnn (May 13, 2009)

I`m aware that there are different ceramic boards with all kinds of application and specs, some more dense than others.  Of those which may be capable of extended service, you are looking at $60 a square foot. This price could be passed on provided it had been tested and could be shown to be cost effective. What size sheet demands $100 purchase price,,and why so much for installation. Bear in mind im not nearly as familiar as you, with all the stoves, baffles just seemed to be pretty straight forward.


----------



## summit (May 13, 2009)

flewism said:
			
		

> I don't no, but my 2 year old Napoleon 1401 insert needs new baffles.  They are some type of fiberboard not ceramic, but they are not durable. $25 each on line and I need two of them.  This is my first wood burner other than regular fireplace.



yeah, the firboard is basically what i am talking about.. light weight cheese


----------



## johnn (May 13, 2009)

Flewism:: could you post a link to those boards, so that I could look at them?


----------



## cmonSTART (May 13, 2009)

As much as I like my 30-NC, I'm not so much a fan of the split ceramic fiber baffles..


----------



## summit (May 13, 2009)

ml said:
			
		

> I`m aware that there are different ceramic boards with all kinds of application and specs, some more dense than others.  Of those which may be capable of extended service, you are looking at $60 a square foot. This price could be passed on provided it had been tested and could be shown to be cost effective. What size sheet demands $100 purchase price,,and why so much for installation. Bear in mind im not nearly as familiar as you, with all the stoves, baffles just seemed to be pretty straight forward.



I am talking about retail price.. any prices you get online are for a bulk item or at manufacturer direct items, but when you return to the dealer, you are faced with their markup on the item, or the extra cuts they make on the board at the factory ro fit in their stoves.. many prices you pay for thru the dealerships have an attatched 40% markup. the problem is, especially when the company does not honor it under a warranty, if a dealer is good enough to get it to you, the costs you get hit with include ups shipping, and labor to install. If the company does warranty it, then the dealer gets his cost of the part, but not any shipping, and the refund is not in a cash or check, but in a credit you can only use with said company.


----------



## summit (May 13, 2009)

flewism said:
			
		

> I don't no, but my 2 year old Napoleon 1401 insert needs new baffles.  They are some type of fiberboard not ceramic, but they are not durable. $25 each on line and I need two of them.  This is my first wood burner other than regular fireplace.



 the biggest end of it it what you said: not durable... look, everyone looks to a woodburning appliance as something that stands the test of time and fire, but many are not being made that that standard anymore inside the stove... which should be the most rugged part.


----------



## daveswoodhauler (May 13, 2009)

Summit...I am glad you are on the board here. Its nice to get some thoughts from dealers/installers and their point of view. Thanks.


----------



## johnn (May 13, 2009)

summit said:
			
		

> flewism said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Doesn`t seem to be asking too much. I agree!!

  Seems like the grid pattern supporting brick and possibly a blankett, would last a reasonable time.,,but then I guess you lose advertised cu.ft.


----------



## summit (May 13, 2009)

ilikewood said:
			
		

> Summit...I am glad you are on the board here. Its nice to get some thoughts from dealers/installers and their point of view. Thanks.



thank you! i really enjoy this site... there are 8 employees at our shop, and we are the only ones who we can talk to about this kinda stuff... it all goes over most everyone elses' heads! people have a preconcieved notion of hearth systems as something you stick in, it gets hot, and you don't have to put much thought process into it! you gottta know what is going on! otherwise, that investment costs you as much, or more, than the current fossil fuel alternative.


----------



## North of 60 (May 13, 2009)

I had to change mine yearly on my old stove$$$ Thats why I laugh when people talk about maintenance on a CAT stove. 4yrs now and Ive ran a vacuum on it.  BIG DEAL! The Napoleon cost me a lifetime of combustors for the newer stove. Thanks for the thread. I finally got my rant off.  :coolgrin:  Cheers
N of 60


----------



## rdust (May 13, 2009)

My dealer went on a rant about the "cheap" boards and cats before I bought my Lopi.  It pretty much followed everything you're saying to the letter.


----------



## rickw (May 13, 2009)

One thing nice about the FV, nothing but stone, steel and heavy firebrick in the firebox. You can hammer wood into it.


----------



## 3fordasho (May 13, 2009)

I never understood all the rants against cat stoves when a lot of the non-cat secondary burn stoves have these fiberboard/ceramic board sheets or even more expensive cast ceramic assemblys (everburn?) that are fragile and need replacing after a few years.   I'll take my chances with the cat in my Fireview- even IF it needs replacement every 4 years I think the maintenence costs will be a wash between cat vs non-cat stoves.  The cat stove however has the added benefit of longer damped down burns if needed.   Also I think the warranty covering the cat (at least Woodstock's warranty) is better than warranty coverage on these fiber/ceramic boards.


----------



## madrone (May 13, 2009)

I'm going to quit complaining about hitting the tubes in my stove.


----------



## Highbeam (May 13, 2009)

My last Lopi had the steel supports for the firebrick baffle. That was good. 

I've shoved just about 11 cords through my hearthstone over the last two seasons and I have of course hit that stupid baffle. In the case of hearthstone it is about 1/2" thick and about the density of a homemade sugar cookie so it is pretty heavy. I have dented and gouged it. I have removed it several times to clean the chimney and for other stove maintenance with relative ease. The baffle is extremely easy to replace and must come out for a good chimney sweeping anyway. I believe a new one is less than 100$.

I would be much happier if the baffle was made of steel or some other durable material. That said, I filled the dents and gouges with a quick application of furnace cement the last time I swept the chimney and this repair has worked extremely well. I just blew out the dent and spread the cement like peanut butter.

Again, I agree with you, the fiber baffle is a poor choice for durability despite being a good choice for EPA testing. I will consider it a negative item on future stove purchases but not a show stopper.


----------



## WES999 (May 13, 2009)

I have a Regency ( about 5 years old) it has the ceramic 2 piece baffle. I just removed it the other day to clean the chimney, looked to be in good shape, seems to be holding up just fine. I think a more durable  replacement baffle could be made form 1/4 steel plate with a ceramic blanket on top ( this is how I made the baffle for my Fisher stove.


----------



## stockdoct (May 13, 2009)

Summit

Instead of hiding the fact of the cheesy baffles in the stoves you sell and having an angry customer a year later when it breaks, you might want to change the customer's expectations right at the sale.

After they've made their choice on the stove, let them know about the rapid breakage of the baffle "in other customer's stoves I've sold" and offer them an "insurance policy" against breakage for $50 additional dollars.  If the baffle breaks in the next 5 years, you agree to replace it for them, once,  at no additional charge.

If they buy the insurance and the baffle breaks, they are happy they bought the insurance.
If they buy the insurance and forget about it (like many certainly will)  you pocket the $50
If they choose not to buy the insurance and the baffle breaks, they're content that you had warned them at the outset and blame themselves for not buying insurance
If they chose not to buy the insurance and the baffle is fine, they're happy with their "smart" decision.

In all situations, the customer is happy and you look good for your foresight.


----------



## karri0n (May 13, 2009)

WES999 said:
			
		

> I have a Regency ( about 5 years old) it has the ceramic 2 piece baffle. I just removed it the other day to clean the chimney, looked to be in good shape, seems to be holding up just fine. I think a more durable  replacement baffle could be made form 1/4 steel plate with a ceramic blanket on top ( this is how I made the baffle for my Fisher stove.




The problem with this is it doesn't have very good thermal reflective properties. Take a look at Precaud's posts experimenting with different liners for a more in-depth analysis of this. I will try to find a link. It's more than just EPA standards we're trying to meet with our baffle boards; it's about improving the efficiency of the stove as well. I do agree something more durable should be used, however. I'm fairly certain most manufacturers aim for a trade-off in durability vs. thermal reflectivity.


----------



## Todd (May 13, 2009)

If I owned a stove with one of those cheap thin baffles and it broke on me, I think I would look into laying firebricks on top of the burn tubes. I use to own an Energy King non cat and it's baffle was designed that way, in fact the older Napoleons had the same firebox as Energy King and now they went to the thin baffle boards.


----------



## ControlFreak (May 13, 2009)

summit said:
			
		

> I have seen what i see as a disturbing trend in woodburning units over the last few years. Many producers are installing chessey ceramic baffles in the woodstove on the market. There are some (lopi, PE, jotul, woodstock) that still stick to steel, cast, and or bricks in their baffle which hold up to impact, but many out there do not. Napoleon, archgard, englander, hearthstone, dutchwest, regency, enviro, vermont castings ( the list goes on ) have a thin ceramic board which punctures easilly and flakes off chunks within a year of use.



I'm trying to figure out how to say this without sounding insulting.  Please don't make assumptions, and insult people who design things unless you have a full understanding of why things are designed that way.  It only makes you look cheesy.  Companies are not always sacrificing quality for cost, and this is not a cost issue.

Those "cheesy" light panels are cheesy and light for a reason.  These refractory panels are exceptionally light because they heat up very easily and act like a glow plug in a diesel engine, to improve the secondary combustion efficiency (though a diesel only uses the plugs to start).  If your stove is operating up to temperature, that cheesy light panel will glow red hot as smoke rises and combines with the secondary air to produce the secondary combustion.  This red hot glow serves as a "catalyst" to burn up the smoke.  This is not a chemical catalyst as in typical CAT stoves, but you can think of it as a thermal catalyst.  The panels are not made light to cut cost, but they dramatically improve the effectiveness of your secondary.  Let me give you an illustration.  When I first installed my 1401 insert, Napoleon used some light firebricks up at the top of the firebox.  Those bricks would glow red when the secondary was in full swing.  After a few years, the bricks started to disintegrate.  By that time, Napoleon (Wolf Steel) had replaced the firebricks with these cheesy light panels.  After this replacement, the stove's operating temperature went up by about 100 degrees with the same burn time.  Why?  Because the cheesy refractory panels improve the secondary performance enough to generate that much more combustion and heat.

If your complaint is about how fragile they are, then be a little more careful not to scrape firewood against them when you load up your stove.  I find that the refractory panels, even though they are very light, are more durable than the firebricks.  That is, the panels don't crack and disintegrate the way the older bricks did.  Sure, my panels are scratched up on the inside from hitting them with logs, but I have yet to poke a hole all the way through them.  And when I do, I won't mind replacing the panels.  They are well worth it with the performance improvement they bring.  They are a maintenance item like spark plugs.  They are a delicate part that wears and eventually needs to be replaced.


----------



## summit (May 13, 2009)

ControlFreak said:
			
		

> summit said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I am not trying to insult those who design these, and i am fully aware of their unique properties. However, when you compare the material that is put into the top of the stove now, with the stuff that used to get put into the "good old stoves" from years past (which there are many out there, and they are still in great shape w/ original parts) it does not match up in the quality you expect when you plunk down 1-3 K for a stove. Now I know that they help these stoves acheive an epa rating, there are usually easy to replace, and are relativley cheap.... but they break, and they can break on day 1 of use... and if you smash it jamming a log into your stove, you just bought yourselfs some spare parts. A more substantive material should be used (for example jotul and scan, as well as many europeon stoves use a skamol material which holds up very well and has these same properties). The last thing you want to say to a guy whent they are buying a woodstove is "be careful when you load the wood in there, the inside is fragile." This industry has gone from old tanks of stoves to efficient heaters that burn "greener" in the course of the last 20 years. If we can put a man on the moon, we can find a better material to make a baffle out of.


----------



## johnn (May 13, 2009)

Hey sommit: karriOn was trying to direct you to a 5 page thread done by precaud,,its very good reading as he experimented with different liner material. good discussion and info. I`ve done much research since that thread and found numerous materials , many available only in bulk or wholesale.Those which could prove useful (if memory serves) uses Alumina woven into a ceramic blankett prior to hardeneng and vacumne forming This helps to create the density needed for duration. The material he used I believe was Zirconia at a price of $64 a sq.ft. It would be nice to be able to persuade these manufacturers to try other materials, however we can easily compute the cost of new engineering and associated cost to even get manufacturers to try! Sorry I couldnt get a kwick link for you to click on,,,but if you go to the search box,,and type,,,precaud,,, in the results you will find a thread,,,"Materials used to line fireboxes- a test",,,read it if you have the time,,,I believe your thread "cheesy" also shows up in the search


----------



## begreen (May 14, 2009)

I've posted before that I'm not a fan of ceramic baffle boards so no rant here. But I do think modern stoves are an expensive purchase and don't like the idea of consumables tied to its long term operational efficiency or durability. That sounds too much like today's modern computer printers. It was influential in my deciding on the T6 cuz I'm a low maintenance operator. I have enough things around to keep working well without adding more maintenance to the list. 

The other side of the coin is with low priced stoves like the Englander and Napoleons, I think a baffle board solution there is acceptable. These companies provide solid heaters at an affordable price. There has to be some compromises in design. Considering how cleanly these stoves burn, I think the baffle board is an acceptable compromise. OTOH, in a high-end stove, I'm expecting a better solution.


----------



## North of 60 (May 14, 2009)

Well put BeGreen! I had to $buck up for the difference. Well worth it though.


----------



## lexybird (May 14, 2009)

one of my englanders, the NC13 ,has ceramic boards and while they may be more fragile compared to other designs it serves it purpose very well and i could probably replace it 10 times over and still have less in it than some of the high dollar big names on the market .I bet alot of issues come into play from  mishandling  the wood jammed up carelessly.


----------



## velvetfoot (May 14, 2009)

I've had my Quad for several years now and have not cracked the board yet (knock on wood).  Maybe it is because the tubes below shield it some.  Compared to my last Quad though with the 30 pound steel baffle, it's a lot easier to handle when cleaning the insert, though it has to be handled very carefully.
Now, about those flimsy firebricks....


----------



## karri0n (May 14, 2009)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> I've posted before that I'm not a fan of ceramic baffle boards so no rant here. But I do think modern stoves are an expensive purchase and don't like the idea of consumables tied to its long term operational efficiency or durability. That sounds too much like today's modern computer printers. It was influential in my deciding on the T6 cuz I'm a low maintenance operator. I have enough things around to keep working well without adding more maintenance to the list.
> 
> The other side of the coin is with low priced stoves like the Englander and Napoleons, I think a baffle board solution there is acceptable. These companies provide solid heaters at an affordable price. There has to be some compromises in design. Considering how cleanly these stoves burn, I think the baffle board is an acceptable compromise. OTOH, in a high-end stove, I'm expecting a better solution.




What's the t6 got for a baffle?


----------



## begreen (May 14, 2009)

Secondary baffle is built into a stainless box with ceramic blanket on top, then a stainless top cover. Same as the Summit.


----------



## BrotherBart (May 14, 2009)

Jotul F3CBs have a galvanized steel baffle in them. It is going to be real interesting to see how long that lasts.


----------



## summit (May 14, 2009)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Jotul F3CBs have a galvanized steel baffle in them. It is going to be real interesting to see how long that lasts.



I never had to replace a baffle in a 3cb, and we've dealt w/ jotul for around 10 yrs now.


----------



## summit (May 15, 2009)

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> I've had my Quad for several years now and have not cracked the board yet (knock on wood).  Maybe it is because the tubes below shield it some.  Compared to my last Quad though with the 30 pound steel baffle, it's a lot easier to handle when cleaning the insert, though it has to be handled very carefully.
> Now, about those flimsy firebricks....



firebrick is another... although it is an itam very commonly avail. my summit came with pumice like bricks in the bottom and sides, and it took us a year to start carrying them because of that, but the baffles sold us after that


----------



## karri0n (May 15, 2009)

summit said:
			
		

> velvetfoot said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The light bricks are far superior in performance to the heavy bricks.


----------



## flewism (May 16, 2009)

OK, I disassembled the insert today and have a sweep coming this  Tuesday.  Last year when the sweep came I just pulled the baffles, this time I pulled everything. 

A link to the baffles online   http://www.stove-parts.net/Baffle_Kit_for_Napoleon_1400_1401_p/w018-0078.htm

A picture of my current baffles, this insert has about 10 cord through it. 
The metal bracket on the right covers the air tube for the secondary burn. The white material inside this bracket has not been identified as it is not on the parts list for this insert that I can find, any help will be appreciated.


----------



## stoveguy2esw (May 16, 2009)

cmonSTART said:
			
		

> As much as I like my 30-NC, I'm not so much a fan of the split ceramic fiber baffles..




they had to be split , a single would not fit through the door.  as for impact breakage  it would take some carelessness on the part of the loader as they are situated above the door opening. we specify that the stove should also only be loaded to the top of the bricks to provide room for secondary combustion this leaves 3 to 4 inches before hitting the tubes and the width of the tubes before getting to the baffles. as for durability , they have held up quite well we really have not had a very high percentage of replacements (though we did have to put a label in the stove on top of the panels as folks occasionally thought they were "packing materials" and ripped them out)"oops"


----------



## BrotherBart (May 17, 2009)

stoveguy2esw said:
			
		

> cmonSTART said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Poker damage was my biggest problem in the 30-NC since my previous stove had a steel baffle that didn't care how many times it was smacked. Pokers do slip when your are moving splits. Fact of life. For the first two seasons those boards drove me nuts. Year three and I stopped trying to pack it full and got the same burn times and didn't ever put another dent in the boards. I will put up with those boards before I would ever put up with soft, over priced, bricks in  the firebox like the PE and Quad stoves. But now they are deteriorating fast in year three with no outside help. 

Now, about the damned boards not being wide enough to stay in place when a fire is burning. That is an Englander screw up. Period. I had to fix it with a piece of gasket rope with a stainless rod through the middle of it to stop the stove top temp from heading to the moon on start-up due to the combustion gases bypassing the baffle.

Fact is, with board replacement the maintenance costs of this non-cat and a cat stove ain't gonna be a dime's worth of difference.


----------



## summit (May 17, 2009)

flewism said:
			
		

> OK, I disassembled the insert today and have a sweep coming this  Tuesday.  Last year when the sweep came I just pulled the baffles, this time I pulled everything.
> 
> A link to the baffles online   http://www.stove-parts.net/Baffle_Kit_for_Napoleon_1400_1401_p/w018-0078.htm
> 
> ...



if the white stuff was in that channel when you took it out, it is probably a mineral wool insulation that will likely come with that metal rail part when you order it


----------



## gibson (May 17, 2009)

i don't know what the baffles on my Jotul are made of but they are heavy as hell, so i am assuming they are not fiberboard.


----------



## raybonz (May 17, 2009)

Hey People.. Been busy landscaping, splitting wood etc... I know many of you despise my stove but it is very durable with no refractory materials and during it's 20+ yrs it has required 1 combustor at ~$90.00 and one cast iron baffle at $20.00.. This is why I can't part with it.. Plus it's very efficient to boot.. Long as I am burning properly seasoned wood it is very little trouble otherwise it would tend to puff.. If a stove costs alot to keep running it's not worth the trouble and expense of conventional heating but that's just opinion.. If I had a stove that needed repairs often I would stop burning wood as I don't have the time or patience to deal with it.. Reliability is king in my books..

Ray


----------



## begreen (May 17, 2009)

Sounds like a great testimonial to me. I rarely despise anything that does its job well year after year. Reliability + clean burning + good heat make for the best stoves.


----------



## lorskimac (May 17, 2009)

I'm sure everyone here already knows the answers but I can't help asking anyway...

What's a baffle?

What's a firebrick?

Sorry if this is a bit exasperating for you, but I'm a fast learner!


----------



## raybonz (May 18, 2009)

lorskimac said:
			
		

> I'm sure everyone here already knows the answers but I can't help asking anyway...
> 
> What's a baffle?
> 
> ...



In my case the baffle resides under the cat to prevent flames from directly contacting the cat causing thermal shock and damaging the ceramic substrate.. Firebrick which I do not have lines the firebox to protect the outer surfaces and bottom of the stove from direct flames and are replacable when they deteriorate(sp?) ..I always leave a layer of ash on the bottom to protect the bottom.. My stove uses cast iron plates with an airspace behind them to protect the outer cast iron and to this day are still in good shape..

Ray


----------



## summit (May 18, 2009)

lorskimac said:
			
		

> I'm sure everyone here already knows the answers but I can't help asking anyway...
> 
> What's a baffle?
> 
> ...



a baffle is usually in the top of the stove, and it juts out across the firebox so that the flame and smoke do not go directly up the stovepipe from the fire, but have to make kind of an "S" turn around the baffle to exit. this causes the smoke to tumble around and the turbulence (and longer residence time of the smoke in the firebox) helps to burn off the gasses in the woodsmoke for a more efficient burn. Often times these baffles will have an integrated airtube or slot to allow extra combustion air to feed into the exhaust. this added red hot air burns the smoke for a cleaner burn and more heat output per log. sometimes these baffles also cover a catalyst (like in your car's exhaust system) which, when the damper is closed,  burns off the smoke at low temps. 
   firebrick are a beige colored brick (usually 4.24 x 9 x 1.25 inches) that are mostly installed in steel stoves to insulate the firebox wall from heat damage, and also to reflect heat back into the fire for a hotter, more efficient combustion


----------



## lorskimac (May 18, 2009)

Cool, thanks for your patience. Will poke mine when it's cold to see what it's made of.


----------



## Pagey (May 18, 2009)

Think of your stove as a "box within a box".  There's the outer "box" which is made of cast iron, soapstone, plate steel, or some combination thereof.  Then, the "inside box" which is the interior of your stove, the part lined with fire brick.  The top "shelf" of this interior box is the baffle.  The combustion gases travel across the baffle where secondary air is often introduced to create a cleaner burn.  Different manufacturers use different materials to construct this baffle.


----------



## bull (Jan 17, 2010)

so if a person was going to buy a stove which is the best to buy . have another post asking help for best stove to get. if they are going to be a constant hassle my dad will just keep his old fisher. he will not want to buy another if things are going to break and constant mantinance.


----------



## DanCorcoran (Jan 17, 2010)

Yeah, and my cell phone is not nearly as rugged as the old black Bell Telephone dial unit.  You could drop those suckers onto a brick floor and they'd never show a trace of damage.  Of course they weighed 2-3 pounds (compared to my cell phone's 4-5 ounces) and the digital pictures they took weren't worth a damn... 

Rugged isn't everything.


----------



## begreen (Jan 17, 2010)

the bull said:
			
		

> so if a person was going to buy a stove which is the best to buy . have another post asking help for best stove to get. if they are going to be a constant hassle my dad will just keep his old fisher. he will not want to buy another if things are going to break and constant mantinance.



This was the reason we went with the Pacific Energy stove. It has a stainless baffle system that encloses the insulation blanket. An alternative would be to get a stove that uses firebrick like the Avalon or Lopi stoves.


----------



## devinsdad (Jan 18, 2010)

mine consists of stainless steel air tubes with a stainless plate with firebrick and a white (ceramic wool) blanket on top.


----------



## nojo (Jan 18, 2010)

I just got an englander 30 and was thinknig about the baffle since i got it.

What about putting a stainless plate under the ceramic fiber refractory baffle plates? How would this effect the baffles ability to reflect heat and ignite the gasses?


----------



## sauer (Jan 18, 2010)

I did this stainless baffle idea when I rebuilt my mainsfield. seem to work just fine. I used 10 ga with the ceramic wool blanket.


----------



## Bigg_Redd (Jan 18, 2010)

raybonz said:
			
		

> Hey People.. Been busy landscaping, splitting wood etc... *I know many of you despise my stove* but it is very durable with no refractory materials and during it's 20+ yrs it has required 1 combustor at ~$90.00 and one cast iron baffle at $20.00.. This is why I can't part with it.. Plus it's very efficient to boot.. Long as I am burning properly seasoned wood it is very little trouble otherwise it would tend to puff.. If a stove costs alot to keep running it's not worth the trouble and expense of conventional heating but that's just opinion.. If I had a stove that needed repairs often I would stop burning wood as I don't have the time or patience to deal with it.. Reliability is king in my books..
> 
> Ray




Yes, yes we do.


----------



## Bigg_Redd (Jan 18, 2010)

the bull said:
			
		

> *so if a person was going to buy a stove which is the best to buy* . have another post asking help for best stove to get. if they are going to be a constant hassle my dad will just keep his old fisher. he will not want to buy another if things are going to break and constant mantinance.



Pacific Energy


----------



## madrone (Jan 18, 2010)

Bigg_Redd said:
			
		

> the bull said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sure, if you don't mind re-welding it from time to time.


----------



## Bigg_Redd (Jan 18, 2010)

madrone said:
			
		

> Bigg_Redd said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I'll take my chances with a 1 in 10,000 defect in construction over a 1 in 1 design flaw.  Us PE owners, the elite, are happy for you fiber baffle guys gingerly loading your stoves every day, and clearly we are a little jealous.  Thanks for rubbing it in.


----------



## raybonz (Jan 18, 2010)

Bigg_Redd said:
			
		

> raybonz said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Could you please elaborate as to why you despise this stove? While I agree it can be a pain in the butt at times overall it performs well and is very efficient.. Back in 1988 epa stoves were a relatively new thing and there were some growing pains however it does heat my home 24/7.. I do wish the windows stayed cleaner but they didn't do the air wash thing back then.. I have learned the ins and outs of this stove and dry wood is very important to keep trouble at bay.. The cost of ownership is extremely low and for me that's a huge plus..
 Those PE stoves look real nice and seem better built to protect the fragile refractory mat'l they use however most do not use this approach and unfortunately the owners are stuck with regular repairs.. Cast iron plates protect the stove and seem to last forever unlike firebricks which deteriate.. 
I am aware of many of these stoves are still in operation and they too have told me they never need parts.. I would gladly pay extra for a stove that does not require parts on a regular basis..

Ray


----------



## Bigg_Redd (Jan 18, 2010)

raybonz said:
			
		

> Bigg_Redd said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




VC/DW stoves are overpriced junk.  I'm aware that there were times when they made good stoves.  Maybe you have one of those.


----------



## raybonz (Jan 18, 2010)

Bigg_Redd said:
			
		

> raybonz said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I paid $600.00 -$650.00 back in 1988 and that included all the accessories (a special they were running back then) so I think I did very well.. This stove has no refractory materials at all and that is the reason it has been so long lasting.. The only advantage I can see with those fragile materials is they probably heat a little faster so a little bit less pollution on start-up but I run 24/7 so not a factor for me..

Ray


----------



## cycloxer (Jan 18, 2010)

This is one of the big reasons I bought a Jotul Castine. The entire inside of the firebox is cast iron. The upper baffle is stainless. There isn't even any exposed firebrick as on the larger Oslo. I was impressed with the design.


----------



## summit (Jan 18, 2010)

suprised to see my thread still going after all this time...


----------



## raybonz (Jan 18, 2010)

cycloxer said:
			
		

> This is one of the big reasons I bought a Jotul Castine. The entire inside of the firebox is cast iron. The upper baffle is stainless. There isn't even any exposed firebrick as on the larger Oslo. I was impressed with the design.



That truly is impressive! Obviously there is no good reason other than cost control and perhaps future part sales to make these newer stoves so fragile.. Thanx for the good news! Both PE and Jotul seem to be top notch products..   

Ray


----------



## laynes69 (Jan 18, 2010)

I pulled my baffle out of my wood furnace and it was very heavy. I think its got 4 layers. Its stainless steel and has an insulation blanket on top. Don't think I will have to worry about destroying it. I've hit the burn tubes on accident more than the baffle. For some reason when I load for the night, I can never load the wood level. It always goes uphill. I know my baffle takes some heat.


----------



## raybonz (Jan 18, 2010)

laynes69 said:
			
		

> I pulled my baffle out of my wood furnace and it was very heavy. I think its got 4 layers. Its stainless steel and has an insulation blanket on top. Don't think I will have to worry about destroying it. I've hit the burn tubes on accident more than the baffle. For some reason when I load for the night, I can never load the wood level. It always goes uphill. I know my baffle takes some heat.



I checked out your furnace video and it sure does burn clean unlike the older generation wood furnaces.. How many cords do you burn per yr? Do you also have an oil or gas backup system?

Ray


----------



## laynes69 (Jan 18, 2010)

I've burnt a little over 3 cords so far. We started burning on and off since the beginning of october. Its less wood than my old woodfurnace. I have a propane furnace its tied into. We have used about 28 gallons of propane since the beginning of winter. It does burn alot cleaner than the old furnace. This is my first year with the unit, and I really like it. I'm burning less than optimum wood now that would burn fine in the old unit, and It doesn't cut it. I need to get a year or 2 ahead on wood.


----------



## raybonz (Jan 19, 2010)

laynes69 said:
			
		

> I've burnt a little over 3 cords so far. We started burning on and off since the beginning of october. Its less wood than my old woodfurnace. I have a propane furnace its tied into. We have used about 28 gallons of propane since the beginning of winter. It does burn alot cleaner than the old furnace. This is my first year with the unit, and I really like it. I'm burning less than optimum wood now that would burn fine in the old unit, and It doesn't cut it. I need to get a year or 2 ahead on wood.



Thinking that if you burn clean dry hardwood plus burning the smoke you should use far less wood much like an epa wood stove..

Ray


----------



## laynes69 (Jan 19, 2010)

Yup. Considering this firebox is a 3.5 cu ft and the old one was 6+. Its basically a EPA stove with a secondary heat exchanger and a jacket around it.


----------



## tradergordo (Jan 19, 2010)

I think in the future I will try to avoid the "cheese"   The way I see it, these companies discovered this material with some very excellent properties, and they decided to go with it, making their customers the guinea pigs.  Vermont castings used to claim this stuff would last forever, it was also covered under the "lifetime" warranty.  Then the complaints started pouring in, pictures in this forum started showing up where people had poked holes through it accidentally, and more pictures of chips/flakes falling off of the material as it gets thinner each year.  Then the company goes bankrupt and voids all the so called lifetime warranties.  But the thing is, they are still using this material.  In the case of VC stoves (Dutchwest and others) the material is NOT in the firebox, it isn't even visible at all unless you remove the flue and look down inside, its in the rear combustion chambers.  Last I checked, replacing it was $400 for parts alone, and involves completely disassembling the stove - its almost like the stoves are disposable unless someone comes up with a good alternative material replacement solution.


----------



## REF1 (Apr 12, 2010)

Great thread. I found out the hard way with my Homestead. Because the roof of the firebox is slanted toward the back, your eye view of the loading capability is skewed and you think your horizontal placement to the back is the same as the front of the box. BANG. Can't tell you how many times I have hit the secondary tubes or the baffle. Then one day I saw a couple of dents in the baffle. Hit me what this stuff is. Even being as careful as possible, like BB says, you move stuff around and sooner or later you are going to hit the baffle with a split or your poker. And yeah, paying $2800 for a stove that can crumble on the inside in a year or two? Unacceptable. Man, am I glad to have my Elm now.


----------



## 70marlin (Apr 12, 2010)

ControlFreak said:
			
		

> summit said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My Hearth stone tribute non cat. has 5yrs. 24/7 during the winter on the stock light weight pannel and yes mine glows bright red! just use your head when loading it. They tuck it up and out of the way on my stove but you still can hit it.


----------



## oldspark (Apr 12, 2010)

I paid 1,000 dollars for my stove in 1980 and have done nothing to it what so ever, only source of heat for 30 years and no maintenance to it what so ever except stove black, I spose this is too much to ask for now, I have a new PE coming this week because of the posts on this site and what I could read, I figured it was as good as it gets.


----------



## rottiman (Apr 12, 2010)

My older Regency R-3's have the steel plate with the blanket.  just replaced the one which was manufactured in 1992.  Used 3/8" steel armor plate (military issue) and a new blanket.  Guarenteed not to gouge, mark or fall apart if you touch it.  Got 18 years x 5 cord a year use out of the first one.  I'll probably be fertilizer before the new one wears out................................


----------



## summit (Apr 12, 2010)

wow, I started this thread a while ago, good to see it shaking off the dust and still tickin!... 

REF1: you have seen exactly wehat I'm talkin about: I really don't like selling anyone on a homestead for this reason: and to replace a baffle in a homestead? either pull the top off, or cut it in 1/2 and piece it in. All the Hearthstones have baflles like that now (cept fo the phoenix, I think, but its been a couple yrs since we sold one of those)... Too many stoves are gettin' this way, and I for one don't dig it. Sure, i know it helps them to achieve lower emissions, etc: but being "careful loading wood into the stove" is not in my vocabulary, unless we're talking slammin' logs the the ceramic glass... 

rottiman: good job w/ the plate steel!! nice find! but, be forewarned. The caveat to what you did is a modification to the stove as it was tested, and should there ever be a problem w/ the stove they can say you changed it beyond what the the stove was designed to have, and give plausible denial to a claim. Now, you and I both know you have done nothing to hurt the unit, and probably beefed up its integrity, but just to give you a heads up.


----------



## nojo (Apr 12, 2010)

Im going to try to get some 1/4 stainless plate and put it ontop of the burntubes on my englander 30 and put the refractory ontop of that. I hit the tubes and refractory all the time loading wood. Its the same deal as described about the hearthstone. Its lower in the back and you cant really see in there too well when you loading her up.


----------



## BrotherBart (Apr 13, 2010)

The first year that I burned in the 30-NC I kept smacking the fiber board and tubes and figured that they wouldn't last through the second season. After that I quit trying to stack the thing all the way to the roof, threw away the poker and now I am finishing off season four and they boards look like they have another four years in them. And who knows how many more seasons the SS tubes will last. 

I went to loading just to the top of the firebricks and leaving combustion space above them and still get the same burn times and heat. And don't pound the crap out of the fiber board or the burn tubes. And use less wood.


----------



## Hiram Maxim (Apr 13, 2010)

nojo said:
			
		

> Im going to try to get some 1/4 stainless plate and put it ontop of the burntubes on my englander 30 and put the refractory ontop of that. I hit the tubes and refractory all the time loading wood. Its the same deal as described about the hearthstone. Its lower in the back and you cant really see in there too well when you loading her up.



 use 300 series or 17-4 stainless? ;-P 

316 stainless is your best bet for the price.

My buddy has been using a piece of 1/8” thick bronze baffle plate is 30” deep x 24” wide, with great results in his retro fit secondary air tube & baffle set up.


----------



## Hiram Maxim (Apr 13, 2010)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> The first year that I burned in the 30-NC I kept smacking the fiber board and tubes and figured that they wouldn't last through the second season. After that I quit trying to stack the thing all the way to the roof, threw away the poker and now I am finishing off season four and they boards look like they have another four years in them. And who knows how many more seasons the SS tubes will last.
> 
> I went to loading just to the top of the firebricks and leaving combustion space above them and still get the same burn times and heat. And don't pound the crap out of the fiber board or the burn tubes. And use less wood.



I will second this.....

As we have previously discussed,The reality is that there needs to be a certain amount of distance from the wood to the tubes/baffle for the stove to burn correctly.


The last two seasons I have been using a rake (36" long) instead of a poker. My buddies cousin made it one day when the CNC machine was sitting idol at work....


----------



## precaud (Apr 13, 2010)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> I went to loading just to the top of the firebricks and leaving combustion space above them and still get the same burn times and heat. And don't pound the crap out of the fiber board or the burn tubes. And use less wood.



Same here. Both of my stoves have ceramic fiber baffle boards, though the X33 originally had a Skamol baffle and I replaced it with Kaowool M-board. The fiberboard baffle material fits right in with the concept of lightweight, highly insulating lining materials for the firebox and, in my opinion, it's the best material for the job. Replace it with just about anything else and you're emissions will go up, guaranteed.


----------



## ddown (Apr 13, 2010)

I don't consider 120.oo every few years id I get stoopid a big deal compared to converter, Downdraft burn chambers, refractories that are custom molded. I know that and englander take 15 minutes to replace the baffles and I'm back at the races beauty is more than skin deep.

I like chese but not with Whine


----------



## TMonter (Apr 13, 2010)

I have a ceramic baffle board on my Quad with a ceramic blanket on top of it and it's on year 6 with no problems. The leading edge of the board has a few chips in it, but it's held up fine. Actually I prefer this design as the ceramic doesn't hold heat, doesn't expand or warp and reflects heat more readily back into the firebox. I've seen some warped steel baffles and I'm not sure I find a steel or even stainless baffle a superior option.


----------



## c2oxide (Sep 19, 2011)

I've got a Napoleon 1402 wood burning insert, with similar issues.  The baffles seem like styrofoam and were completely destroyed after about 6 months:






My solution was to have someone build a 3/16" thick stainless steel baffle using the Napoleon-designed ones as a template:






Full write-up here:
Full article / review of Napoleon 1402 insert


----------



## begreen (Sep 19, 2011)

This sounds like premature failure. I don't recall other users running into this. Did you discuss the issue with the dealer or was the stove run pedal-to-the-metal last winter?


----------



## joefrompa (Sep 19, 2011)

Thanks for this thread. Made me realize how fortunate I am to have bought my Lopi economy line - an inexpensive stove that's well made. 

This past year, I pushed my stove to heat my home. And I used alot of semi-seasoned pine. How do you push a stove with semi-seasoned pine? You cram every last inch of the firebox full of it.

There were times where I had my firebox creaking from levering a 23" piece of pine into the back corner and shoving it HARD to get it to grind into place so I could close the door. Alot of those times.

Now I realize - If I had gone with a cheaper stove in the same size, I would've broken some things or not been able to do that.

Because I've got a plate steel + heavy brick + iron/steel baffles, it takes a beating and keeps on heating!

I haven't loved everything about my stove, but I do have to give it some credit here.


----------



## greythorn3 (Sep 19, 2011)

ya im not thrilled with the nc30 baffles plates. shifting a fuller load around ive already dinged the baffle some, and with my ash shovel in the stove also ding them, im afraid as much as im accidently hitting them to let anyone else put wood in the stove.

the baffles are expensive enough, let alone the shippign to alaska.


----------



## North of 60 (Sep 19, 2011)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> This sounds like premature failure. I don't recall other users running into this. Did you discuss the issue with the dealer or was the stove run pedal-to-the-metal last winter?



Begreen, I stated this issue many times with my Napoleon.  Every season.  Thats why I laughed with people talking about Cat maintenance.  I havent had to do anything other than vacume and brush.  I spent a few $ on baffle board on the Nap and went to custom cut pumic brick to solve this problem.


----------



## BrotherBart (Sep 20, 2011)

The "cheese" in the 30 is getting ready for season six. Looks fine. Only damage is from the first season before I threw that poker in the woods.


----------



## cptoneleg (Sep 20, 2011)

It was explained very well last year why these were made the way they are, seems like steel or stainless wouldn't hold up to the heat.  Anyway I am sure they are not there to save money on the stove they have a purpose.
   I do know first hand that Jotul has a very good warrenty, but the baffle is not covered at all.  Someone on here changed one out on a F500 with pictures and was cheap and easy to do.  So don't go poking around up ther with your poker. :zip:


----------



## par0thead151 (Sep 20, 2011)

flewism said:
			
		

> I don't no, but my 2 year old Napoleon 1401 insert needs new baffles.  They are some type of fiberboard not ceramic, but they are not durable. $25 each on line and I need two of them.  This is my first wood burner other than regular fireplace.




lucky. the enviro ones are 75$ for a pair.


----------



## begreen (Sep 20, 2011)

north of 60 said:
			
		

> BeGreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am trying to piece together this puzzle because I know of Napoleon 1400's that have gone years without seeing this issue. The common thread so far appears to be that both of these issues are showing up on stoves in uncommonly cold climates. But perhaps there is something else?


----------



## Ubookz (Sep 20, 2011)

I have to say I enjoyed reading this thread! learned a lot, did not know to consider the type of baffle a stove had and what is important to look for. Now i will think about: how full do I load the firebox? for the over night burn. The firebricks may need to be replaced in a few seasons; low operating cost is a plus.

I am happy to have my wood stove; in the future burning wood may be banned or taxed for the environ issues! :cheese:


----------



## stejus (Sep 20, 2011)

Here's one of the cheesey baffles.  This was after the first clean.  I suspect the sweep did this as he didn't remove the baffle before sweeping.  He said it was most likely due to heating the stove up too fast.  I don't think so.   I tried to bond the peices together and it lasted one more season, so 2 burn seasons and it's replaced.   Now I take the baffle out before he sweeps!


----------



## Todd (Sep 20, 2011)

I had 3 non cats with fire brick baffles that never had any issues, one Hearthstone Homestead with the ceramic (cheese) baffle that did get some good dings in it, but the worst thing was you couldn't remove the damn thing without removing the top or breaking it. Not the best design imo, maybe they fixed that.

Current stove baffles are cast iron and stainless, no insulation needed for the cat.


----------



## VCBurner (Sep 20, 2011)

Bigg_Redd said:
			
		

> VC/DW stoves are overpriced junk.  I'm aware that there were times when they made good stoves.  Maybe you have one of those.



Dutchwest cat stoves are still some of the best priced and most durable stoves on the market. The operators just don't take the time to learn how to operate the stove.  They overfire their stoves and end up with warped tops due to constant high cat temps that make the inside of the stove glow red!  Ignorance can be the only blame there.  You don't need a PHD to learn them either, just a little attention to detail.  This  is just something that most people don't think they need in wood burning.  Most people just think, stuff the stove and let it burn until there's nothing left, just like the primitive but effective old fishers and alnighters of the past.  I think it was Hanko who used to say: "you only need average intelligence to learn to operate a DW."  DW cat stoves are made of double walled cast iron and only have one piece of refractory that cannot be reached from the inside of the stove or while cleaning the flue pipes.  The only way to reach the refractory or cat is to remove the top of the stove.  The baffle is also cast iron.  As Ray stated, these stoves last a long time with very little maintenance.  You may need a cat every 5-10 years depending on how much you burn, how you burn or what you burn. 

The non-cat DW's are a different story, they do have refractory parts inside the stoves that can and often do sustain damage from normal loading.   

Vc is yet another story.  I still can't believe that with all the trouble they had with the old refractory design, they came out with a refractory piece inside the firebox that can be damaged by loading a log into it  Even though the new material is supposed to be more durable, there's no way they can stand up to abuse like cast iron.  They did this because the refractory is faster to make and more heat resistant.  However, what they needed to address was really the overheating of the secondary burn chaimber that causes parts of the firebox to warp and eventually crack.  I would not buy a brand new VC stove for the staggering cost of around $3000 for some models.  But then again I would never pay $3000 for any stove, period.  There are way too many people out there with new stoves that need to be sold due to relocation or health issues etc...  Why pay 3000 if you can find a two-three year old stove for half the price?  

Overall, I agree with the original post.  Stoves are being made with less durable material and it is unbelievable.  It fits into today's mindset that everything must be disposable and replaceable.  Things are not made to last generally.  You don't always get what you think you pay for.  Buyer beware.


----------



## joefrompa (Sep 20, 2011)

Why don't they make integrated iron/ceramic baffles to provide better durability and faster light-off of the secondaries?

Seems like you mainly need ceramic thing for the fast light off - so just line the baffle area with some ceramic. Doesn't need to be supportive. Hell, if the ceramic breaks/chips, no big deal - it'll still operate, just won't light off quite as fast.

This seems like a too-obvious answer, so I'm guessing I'm missing something.

Joe

P.s. There are also likely better substances for fast light-off of secondaries but that weren't used for weight-bearing purposes...maybe those can be used instead.


----------



## begreen (Sep 20, 2011)

> Why donâ€™t they make integrated iron/ceramic baffles to provide better durability and faster light-off of the secondaries?



PE stoves have the ceramic blanket wrapped in a stainless jacket.


----------



## PerryBurton (Sep 20, 2011)

The lack of "cheese" is why I went with a PE Alderlea T5. Simple shaped fie bricks line my fire box. If any were to break their cheap to replace. It is not a CAT stove however which is fine by me. I do not need something to break on a woodstove causing me to loose the use of it. Getting fancy and pushing the envelope on what a stove can do (performance wise) sacrificing quality in the process only drives people from burning wood. Thankfully some homework and searching the internet can quickly show the problems with some makes and models and one would hope in time the manufacturers catch on to this online critical review of their products and make meaningful changes.

I don't know if any of you remember the ole enterprise wood stove with the top warmer and oven built in. White enamel with cast iron body inside. That thing was built to last. My grandmother had one in her kitchen and looking for a part just wasn't in the vocab for a wood stove.


----------



## Nonprophet (Sep 20, 2011)

joefrompa said:
			
		

> Why don't they make integrated iron/ceramic baffles to provide better durability and faster light-off of the secondaries?
> 
> Seems like you mainly need ceramic thing for the fast light off - so just line the baffle area with some ceramic. Doesn't need to be supportive. Hell, if the ceramic breaks/chips, no big deal - it'll still operate, just won't light off quite as fast.
> 
> ...



I'm curious about this whole issue as I recently acquired a used Quadrafire IR. Just above the burntubes and on the underside of the cast iron baffle is supposed to be a 1/2" thick piece of fiberboard. Mine is missing this piece and I'm not real crazy about spending the $75 or so on a 10"x18" replacement. What exactly does the piece of fiberboard do that aids the secondaries? I know the job of the baffle is to trap the smoke and heat so it can be re-burned, but what is the function of the fiberboard? 

I had another stove a few years back that used an expensive custom made brick baffle--I cut a piece of 3/8" hardibacker board (like you use for ceramic tile underlayment) and slid that in place and it worked just fine for several years and cost zero as it was a scrap piece. I'm thinking about using it again in my IR, any reason not to?


NP


----------



## greythorn3 (Sep 20, 2011)

Nonprophet said:
			
		

> joefrompa said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



heck thats a good idea! i might have to try that whenever i need a replacement.

i know the baffle in my englander furnace is 3/8 steel. but its not a epa stove either.


----------



## Todd (Sep 20, 2011)

Nonprophet said:
			
		

> joefrompa said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The function of the fiberboard is insulation. The better the insulation the better it will reflect the heat back into the box to keep it hotter for secondary combustion. Seems like the cheesier boards are more insulating so many manufactures use them to pass EPA tests. There are some better more stout materials out there like Skamol but probably cost more.


----------



## Jags (Sep 20, 2011)

Nonprophet said:
			
		

> Just above the burntubes and on the underside of the cast iron baffle is supposed to be a 1/2" thick piece of fiberboard. Mine is missing...



<scratching head> I am still trying to figure out how that board could be missing.  I think I am going on season 9 (gonna have to pull the paperwork some day to confirm), and mine looks like how it was shipped from the factory.  I don't know how anyone could even hit that board with a split.  Dunno...just say'in I'm confused.  Heck, I thought I rode mine hard.  I have never touched the stove in any way of repair with the exception of driving the hinge pin in the door back into place.  Seals are good, bricks are good, baffle good, etc.  I guess I better give the ol girl a pat as I walk by it tonight.


----------



## Nonprophet (Sep 20, 2011)

For those who wanted to see Precaud's thread about testing various refractory materials, here is the link: https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/34651/P110/


NP


----------



## FyreBug (Sep 20, 2011)

Hi guys, I've not had the chance to read every single post on this so excuse me if I cover previous ground. From a MFG point of view you must differentiate between 'fiber board' and Ceramic cast. The term cheesy has been used quite a bit so i'm trying to figure out what is going on. 

As a MFG we use all sorts of material for baffles: pumice bricks, refractory bricks, vermiculite, Stainless steel, 'C-Cast' Ceramic baffles. But not fiber board. I dont know off hand what is the composition of fiber board. They come in various grades and thickness. I see them used in lower price point stoves.

Since we've used all material for our baffles we can speak with experience what is 'better'. From a user point of view 'better' is in the eye of the beholder. Each have their unique properties, pro's and cons. Steel baffles are durable, but over time will crack, bend & warp especially if they are welded into place. Pumice bricks of course have to be replaced on a regular basis, easy to access but is inexpensive and typically used on lower price point stoves. etc...

When you talk about a cheesy baffle, I assume you are talking about Vermiculite or fiber board. 

We use 'C-Cast' in some of our premium brands and furnaces since it outperforms many of these in Strength, insulation, abrasion resistance, resistance to shrinking, weight loss & environmental exposure. It will handle close to 3,000 F. We use these not because it is less expensive, as a matter of fact it is much more expensive than all of the above but because it has a better overall performance. As far as breakage, well yes you can break them especially if a sweep do not remove them first and hit them with their brushes. From a user point of view, I cant understand how you would break one of those since the tubes are in the way, so logs would hit those first. Unless you are very over zealous with a poker it's not an issue. However, there is a 7 year warranty.


----------



## Jags (Sep 20, 2011)

FyreBug said:
			
		

> As a MFG we use all sorts of material for baffles: pumice bricks, refractory bricks, vermiculite, Stainless steel, 'C-Cast' Ceramic baffles. But not fiber board.



It may simply be a difference in terminology, but straight from the parts list for an Isle Royale:
Part 9.5 - Fiberboard, Baffle
And I would be very hesitant to call an Isle Royale a "lower price point" stove.  
My guess is that proper terminology may be getting in the way of our discussion.


----------

