# Value of Used Tarm Excel 2200



## avc8130 (Aug 27, 2012)

I am considering purchasing a used Tarm Excel 2200 wood/oil boiler.  The boiler is relatively local to me and was purchased in 2008.  It wasn't installed in the home until 2011 due to various setbacks during construction of the home.  The owner didn't have any wood and ran solely on the oil for the season.  The inside of the combustion chamber/refractory prove this clearly as they are BRAND NEW.  I checked Tarm's warranty, and it looks like it only applies to the original owner/installation.  The seller says he just isn't home enough to use a wood boiler.  The plumber that did the install promised him 1 wire/week to heat his large house in the Northeast (scammer).  He is looking to install just a normal oil boiler with a wood stove to supplement when he is home.  Tarm is out of production on this model, and doesn't seem to offer an alternative.  He claims he paid $14k for the  boiler, and from what I can find of historic price sheets that seems feasible.

So, the bottom line: what is this boiler worth?
ac


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## Bad Wolf (Aug 29, 2012)

It's worth what ever you want to pay. I really like my Tarm Excel 2000, it heats my 3000 sq ft house nicely and I paid around 10K in 2008. I burn aoround 7-8 cords/yr with storage for heat, DHW and the hot tub.
Do you need the dual fuel capability? If I had to do it over I'd go with two seperate furnaces and plumb it acordingly. Since you are going to have to have it cut out and move it and it has no warrenty, I'd low ball him. Offer him $5K
What's a wire/week?


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## mikefrommaine (Aug 29, 2012)

Did he pay 14 including the install?

I tend to think used equipment is worth about 1/3 of the new price. There is not much of a market for used combo boilers-- I've yet to hear someone say they should have went with a combo, though the reverse is often true.


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## avc8130 (Aug 29, 2012)

Sorry about that, 1 fire per week. Clearly a lie to get the sale. 

I do need the combo. I legitimately only have one flue and adding is not an option. 

Why would you go separate if you were doing it again?

How much storage and what type of setup do you run? 

Seller is covering the cost of disconnecting. I called Tarm Biomass, cost was $13,125 for just the unit when he bought it. 

Ac


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## mikefrommaine (Aug 29, 2012)

I'd bet he has a quote to have a new efficient oil boiler installed. If you match that number you would probably be the new owner of that tarm.


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## avc8130 (Aug 29, 2012)

Seller is asking $8500. I'm not sure he would entertain $5k. 

When I spoke to Tarm Biomass, Scott wad very helpful and felt this was a decent deal considering the unused matter of the boiler. The shipping wood is still in the refractory!

Ac


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## webbie (Aug 29, 2012)

Hmm...I prefer great deals to decent deals.

Not a lot of people are gonna be happy about taking a boiler apart and moving it. You should offer what you think he may really want for it - for example, maybe 7K if it has that value to you.


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## Eric Johnson (Aug 29, 2012)

The problem with a combos vs. separate units is that when it springs a leak, you're out of business from a home heating point of view.


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## mikefrommaine (Aug 29, 2012)

avc8130 said:


> Seller is asking $8500. I'm not sure he would entertain $5k.
> 
> When I spoke to Tarm Biomass, Scott wad very helpful and felt this was a decent deal considering the unused matter of the boiler. The shipping wood is still in the refractory!
> 
> Ac



For that price you could buy any number of gassers and a chimney. Or you could use the savings and build a shed to put it in.

Don't be the one to bail him out of his mistake. I'd offer him half of what he is asking. Might get mad, might not. You can always raise your offer. Not so easy to lower your offer.


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## avc8130 (Aug 29, 2012)

mikefrommaine said:


> For that price you could buy any number of gassers and a chimney. Or you could use the savings and build a shed to put it in.
> 
> Don't be the one to bail him out of his mistake. I'd offer him half of what he is asking. Might get mad, might not. You can always raise your offer. Not so easy to lower your offer.


 
Correct, I COULD get a chimney with that much money for a standalone gasser, but that simply won't work for my use. There simply is no way to not make it look hideous or tacked on. If you could see the layout, you would understand.

If I am going to burn wood in an indoor boiler, I need a combo unit. It just won't work any other way for me.

If I want to build a shed, I'll be dealing with concrete, permits, taxes, etc. No way that is getting done for $8500.

I got him down to $7500. I don't think it's getting any better than that. I started at $7k mostly due to the obvious NEW condition of the boiler.  I feel comfortable at $7k that it is the right boiler for me, $7500 still has me a tad unsettled.  I could tell from the close to 2 hours I've spent on the phone with him that anything less wouldn't fly.

ac


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## velvetfoot (Aug 29, 2012)

I, for one, am very interested in how your project will work out and hope you keep us updated.


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## avc8130 (Aug 29, 2012)

velvetfoot said:


> I, for one, am very interested in how your project will work out and hope you keep us updated.


 
Have no fear, there will be posts!

Initial installation will be a direct replacement for my current oil burner: 5 baseboard zones + indirect hot water heater.

Long term plan involves some sort of storage.  Tarm Biomass suggested 800 gallon minimum.  That is a whole concept I still have to research to make the best decision.

PS: This "deal" includes the dump zone, Termovar valve and anything else specific to the Tarm install (vs a typical oil install).

ac


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## velvetfoot (Aug 29, 2012)

That stuff might add up to something.

I forgot your other thread on the subject, but how many ft2 are you going to heat.  I only have 3 zones, including the indirect heater.  If I reacall, your place is a ranch, which means your basement should be spacious for stuff like an 800 gallon tank.  I wonder, if you had enough space, you could keep the oil boiler and tank at the ready to tie in to the flue in case something did go wrong.  It' s not like you'll get that much, I imagine, for that stuff.  Although, why should the wood stuff be so valuable.


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## avc8130 (Aug 29, 2012)

I bet it is a few hundred $ worth of stuff if I had to buy it separately.  Certainly would have a scrap value to the seller.

The house is a ranch.  My 1st floor is ~2500 ft2 and the finished part of the basement is ~1000 ft2.  Some of the 1st floor has vaulted ceilings.  1500 sq ft of the 1st floor is 1980 2x4 construction, the other 1000 is 2003 2x6 construction.   All windows are Andersen casements.

The oil tanks will be there hooked up to the Excel for backup.  IF there is a failure of the boiler, I can run my wood stove + fireplace insert (catalytic) to heat my house until I am able to get the Excel back online.  I could also keep the oil burner in the basement as they are all over craigslist for $500 by me.  

I have plenty of space for storage in the 1500 ft2 portion of basement the boiler will be in.  I just need to decide what type of storage is appropriate.  I am limited to stuff that can fit through a set of Bilco doors or a 30" normal door.

The wood stuff has value just because it is rare.  Used oil burners are a dime a dozen in my area, EVERYONE uses one.  Wood boilers?  Not many people looking to move them.  So finding one local enough and in this good of condition is certainly VERY rare.

ac


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## velvetfoot (Aug 29, 2012)

Yes, it is supply and demand.  Your setup probably does need more juice than my 2000 ft2 colonial with 2x6 construction;  I'm probably more in the 25kW range.  Did you see the recent thread from the fellow with the Froling and the square unpressurized tank kit (too tired now to look for thread, tank name, etc).  I think that's the way I would go to get it through my 36" door.  Not sure if a propane tank would fit through my door, but it'd need machinery to wrangle it through.  Something vertical would take up less space; the Euro. tanks are real expensive though.

Anyway, I'm just talking.  I just got a new insert and I'll probably never do a boiler, but I'm dreaming.  I like the idea of a plug and play replacement (but who knows how plug and play it will be - your flue is ok size?  Will you need a liner?  Is this unit a tall one - how's that gonna factor.  Hopefully nothing insurmountable.).  Best of of luck on your project.


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## avc8130 (Aug 29, 2012)

velvetfoot said:


> Yes, it is supply and demand. Your setup probably does need more juice than my 2000 ft2 colonial with 2x6 construction; I'm probably more in the 25kW range. Did you see the recent thread from the fellow with the Froling and the square unpressurized tank kit (too tired now to look for thread, tank name, etc). I think that's the way I would go to get it through my 36" door. Not sure if a propane tank would fit through my door, but it'd need machinery to wrangle it through. Something vertical would take up less space; the Euro. tanks are real expensive though.
> 
> Anyway, I'm just talking. I just got a new insert and I'll probably never do a boiler, but I'm dreaming. I like the idea of a plug and play replacement (but who knows how plug and play it will be - your flue is ok size? Will you need a liner? Is this unit a tall one - how's that gonna factor. Hopefully nothing insurmountable.). Best of of luck on your project.


 
My current oil burner runs a 1.25 gallon/hour nozzle.  This means the installer who setup the oil burner felt 140k btu/hr was necessary to heat my home for the design temp.  

I did not see that thread, searching now.  

I specifically asked Tarm Biomass about the flue.  They said my 8x8 clay liner would be acceptable.  The chimney is interior, 25' tall.  

Height won't be an issue, my basement is 8' to the joists.  

Looks about as "plug and play" as possible.

ac


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## velvetfoot (Aug 29, 2012)

I found it.  https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/wood-boiler-project-chimney-phase.84798/#post-1165869
Looks real nice.

If I remember, my nozzle size is .75. I just have pipe meant for oil boiler, so I guess I'd have to replace everything $.

 I have to say I really like the indirect hw heater off the oil boiler, 40 gallon Boilermate; never seem to run out.  Not sure how something like that works with storage, unpressurized/pressurized or whatever.  It'd be nice to have an engineer that knows what he's doing design the system.

Again, you have to be psyched about this.  Congrats.


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## avc8130 (Aug 29, 2012)

Interesting thread.  I would be in a similar boat if I were to add a chimney.  That would be just about exactly what I would have to do.  BUT...  I would essentially lose the ability to park a car in my garage on that side, I'd have the added cost of concrete/framing/siding/chimney/permits/inspections/etc, I'd have to move my oil tanks as where the boiler would wind up is where they are, and I would have 4 chimneys in 3 locations on my house.  It would start looking like an 1800 victorian ranch where they had fireplaces in every room for heat!  All of that just isn't practical for me when I can just get this combo unit and be moving on to storage rather than chimney construction.

I have a Boilermate also right now.  I was happy with it, until I started watching my oil tank over the summer.  I am definitely burning a fair amount of oil just for hot water.  I am logging my boiler as we speak so I can put a solid, accurate number to the daily consumption.  The indirect systems are very efficient...when you are maintaining boiler temperature to heat your house anyways, in the summer it appears that an electric heater might be cheaper to operate.  

I am not sure what I will do for DHW in the future.  For the winter I will probably continue with the Boilermate.  Storage may/may not change this.  I am not sure if it is possible to get the "one fire/week" DHW from storage with a Boilermate in the equation.

ac


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## velvetfoot (Aug 29, 2012)

Coincidentally, I had been looking at my oil consumption this afternoon, and was thinking of monitoring my oil in the summer as well.  I recall reading about someone putting an hour meter on a burner circuit.  I seem to be using less than half the amount of oil, but that's with 4.5 cords or so.  I thought I should be using less.  So, I'll try the monitoring thing as well.  Last I checked the softener, which has a turbo usage meter, we're  (2 of us) at 40-50 gals per day of internal house water - not sure how much of that is hot water, and that number is subject to verification..


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## JP11 (Aug 30, 2012)

velvetfoot said:


> Coincidentally, I had been looking at my oil consumption this afternoon, and was thinking of monitoring my oil in the summer as well. I recall reading about someone putting an hour meter on a burner circuit. I seem to be using less than half the amount of oil, but that's with 4.5 cords or so. I thought I should be using less. So, I'll try the monitoring thing as well. Last I checked the softener, which has a turbo usage meter, we're (2 of us) at 40-50 gals per day of internal house water - not sure how much of that is hot water, and that number is subject to verification..


That was me.  If you search on ebay for a AC powered "hobbs" meter.  That's what I did.  I eventually found an off brand one for 30 bucks or so.  Found that at -10.... my boiler ran NON STOP for 24 hours.  I was running 70% home made biodiesel... which packs just a bit less of a punch that #2.

With the very mild winter... I used about 1650 gallons of oil.  Thus the Vigas and 1000gal of storage now.  Tanks are foamed and boxed in now.  Blow in fiberglass guy coming tomorrow to fill the box.

JP


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## avc8130 (Aug 30, 2012)

I started monitoring last night around 8:30.  So far, after my shower I showed .2 hours of run time.  So, overnight I burned ~.25 gallon of oil.

ac


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## JP11 (Aug 30, 2012)

avc8130 said:


> I started monitoring last night around 8:30. So far, after my shower I showed .2 hours of run time. So, overnight I burned ~.25 gallon of oil.
> 
> ac


Just my wife and I.  DHW via a buderus 80gal indirect the oil boiler sits on top of.  I run about 1.2 to 1.5 gal per day for DHW.


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## avc8130 (Aug 30, 2012)

JP11 said:


> Just my wife and I. DHW via a buderus 80gal indirect the oil boiler sits on top of. I run about 1.2 to 1.5 gal per day for DHW.


 

WHOA!  I'd have an electric hot water plumbed in already if that is the case.  1.2-1.5 gallons of oil is $4-$6 per day.  That's $120-$180 per month!  There is NO WAY an electric water heater would cost that much to run.

ac


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## Bad Wolf (Aug 30, 2012)

Mainly I would have gone separate because of the price.  I could get an oil furnace and a gasser for less than the cost of the Tarm. However if you are getting a good deal then that’s not as much of a factor. 
I'm running one flue as well which is one of the reasons I was looking at a combo in the first place. 
I've got 1200 gallons of unpressurized storage similar to the STSS tanks. I plumbed it according to Tarms diagram and Scott was very helpful to me as well. 
If it was initially set up without storage I think you will need a few more items and it will need to be plumbed/wired differently. You can probably set it up for storage without the tank and add that later. Scott can advise you. 
There are pros and cons to the combo unit.  It is nice to have it on auto backup if you’re not home or even to switch it over manually to quickly heat up the house if everything is stone cold.  The down side is that it really doesn’t make any sense to run oil with storage.  
Check your dimensions; I barely got the 2000 down my Bilco door, plus the 2000 weighed 1450 lbs and I’m sure the 2200 weighs more.  
But I did get it in, one man, one truck and a lot of time.


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## avc8130 (Aug 30, 2012)

Greg H said:


> Mainly I would have gone separate because of the price. I could get an oil furnace and a gasser for less than the cost of the Tarm. However if you are getting a good deal then that’s not as much of a factor.
> I'm running one flue as well which is one of the reasons I was looking at a combo in the first place.
> I've got 1200 gallons of unpressurized storage similar to the STSS tanks. I plumbed it according to Tarms diagram and Scott was very helpful to me as well.
> If it was initially set up without storage I think you will need a few more items and it will need to be plumbed/wired differently. You can probably set it up for storage without the tank and add that later. Scott can advise you.
> ...


 
I just don't think I can get the storage setup right away for this heating season.  Swapping the boiler over will be a big enough task. 

I think I will study the diagrams and try to leave "Tees" in the pipes with ball valves shut off to add the storage easily later. 

I spoke to Scott.  He actually suggested running the oil on storage!  He said the long burn time for the oil would push efficiency up, especially for DHW. 

Dimensions should be a problem.  I have ground level access on one side of my basement (of course the far side from the boiler area).  I have 2 doors to pass through and 1 step to go up.  Any suggestions on how to handle this 1600lb beast?

ac


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## JP11 (Aug 30, 2012)

avc8130 said:


> WHOA! I'd have an electric hot water plumbed in already if that is the case. 1.2-1.5 gallons of oil is $4-$6 per day. That's $120-$180 per month! There is NO WAY an electric water heater would cost that much to run.
> 
> ac


Careful of saying.. No way.  You haven't seen the house. 

From the boiler room to the furthest bathroom.. where there is a recirc line back to boiler room that runs on a timer... Is about 85 feet.

I'm sure I had days that were 1 hour.  When the boiler starts, it runs for 20 minutes minimum.  So call that 3 or 4 starts a day.

My fuel in the boiler is Biodiesel.. which is about 10% less OOMF than #2

But.. the bio is about a buck a gallon, all in.

JP


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## avc8130 (Aug 30, 2012)

JP11 said:


> Careful of saying.. No way. You haven't seen the house.
> 
> From the boiler room to the furthest bathroom.. where there is a recirc line back to boiler room that runs on a timer... Is about 85 feet.
> 
> ...


 
JP,

I have a similar situation with my hot water.  Quite a run to the back bedroom in my expanded ranch.  The previous owners put in one of those half-butt recirc setups.  It doesn't work.

I didn't realize you were running home brew!  That keeps your cost to a reasonable amount. 

If that wasn't the case, another option might be some on-demand electric heaters CLOSE to the point of use.

ac


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## velvetfoot (Aug 30, 2012)

Not that it happens every day, but if there is a power outage, an electric water heater won't work.  

Which hour meter did you get? Does it only go down to a tenth of an hour? I guess it doesn't matter much.  I'm looking and seeing them, but the 120 vac terminals have to be insulated; a thermostat call for heat would do the trick at 24 vac, and could even be located remotely, like upstairs.


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## JP11 (Aug 30, 2012)

velvetfoot said:


> Not that it happens every day, but if there is a power outage, an electric water heater won't work.
> 
> Which hour meter did you get? Does it only go down to a tenth of an hour? I guess it doesn't matter much. I'm looking and seeing them, but the 120 vac terminals have to be insulated; a thermostat call for heat would do the trick at 24 vac, and could even be located remotely, like upstairs.


 
Tenth hour, correct. Terminals.. AH YEAH! Cause if you didn't and the vibration made the hour meter contact the housing of the burner.. Everyone would scratch their heads wondering why a fuse blew in the zone controls.

Not that I WOULD do that. 

Wrap some black tape around the terminals. I had an external "clean cut" put in already to help with bio nozzle build up, so I just tapped into that.

JP


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## Bad Wolf (Aug 30, 2012)

I did a lot of winching to get it down the steps, then used a pry bar to get it up on some rollers. Just like they built the pyrimids.


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## Eric Johnson (Aug 30, 2012)

avc8130 said:


> Any suggestions on how to handle this 1600lb beast?
> 
> ac


 
You can roll it over flat surfaces on pipes. Better yet, rent or borrow a pallet jack and then just wheel it into position. The step will be a challenge, but I bet you can build a small ramp. For fine adjustments once it's in place, a big crow bar slipped under any edge will give you an amazing amount of control.






I've found that moving heavy things over flat surfaces is usually a lot easier than I expect, especially if you keep it simple and think it out ahead of time.

Good luck.


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## avc8130 (Aug 30, 2012)

Eric Johnson said:


> You can roll it over flat surfaces on pipes. Better yet, rent or borrow a pallet jack and then just wheel it into position. The step will be a challenge, but I bet you can build a small ramp. For fine adjustments once it's in place, a big crow bar slipped under any edge will give you an amazing amount of control.
> 
> 
> I've found that moving heavy things over flat surfaces is usually a lot easier than I expect, especially if you keep it simple and think it out ahead of time.
> ...


 

Just about all of that is my plan.  My main fear is INTO the trailer at the seller's house.  Once I am at my house I have the Kubota L39 to "muscle" it off the trailer and hopefully in through the door onto black pipe rollers.  Then the 1 step will be "fun".

ac


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## avc8130 (Aug 30, 2012)

velvetfoot said:


> Not that it happens every day, but if there is a power outage, an electric water heater won't work.
> 
> Which hour meter did you get? Does it only go down to a tenth of an hour? I guess it doesn't matter much. I'm looking and seeing them, but the 120 vac terminals have to be insulated; a thermostat call for heat would do the trick at 24 vac, and could even be located remotely, like upstairs.


 

I am using one of these:
http://www.dentinstruments.com/smart_logger_meters_energy_electricity_metering.htm

Specifically the MAGlogger.

ac


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## mikefrommaine (Aug 30, 2012)

Once I got mine into the basement I used a couple furniture dollies to roll it exactly where I wanted the boiler. Took no time at all.

http://www.homedepot.com/Outdoors-G...roductId=100057209&storeId=10051#.UD_FxET5jR0


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## BoilerMan (Aug 30, 2012)

Have any friends with a tractor & forks? Once on concrete a pallet and pallet jack work wonders.  Just sacrifice the pallet with Sawzall for the first fire! Set it on some type of concrete block (paver or cinder) to get the wood door at a comfortable height as you'll be well aquainted with the door after several years, less bending to look and feed the better.  Since you have a bulkhead lowering it down with the stairs removed shouldn't be bad at all.  You can use a backhoe or a wrecker as a crane to get the job done as well.  I used a Cat backhoe (not a compact tractor mind you) to unload my 1200# boiler with ease.

TS


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## avc8130 (Aug 30, 2012)

I plan to use my Kubota with forks.  She can pick up ~2000lbs pretty well.  Should be able to pick it up from the trailer and set it in the door onto moving dollies.  I think I can get it on moving dollies high enough to clear the step and transfer to a pallet jack or pipes or something.

The real question is FROM the seller's garage TO the trailer in his driveway.

ac


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## mikefrommaine (Aug 30, 2012)

avc8130 said:


> The real question is FROM the seller's garage TO the trailer in his driveway.
> 
> ac



High lift pallet jack.


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## avc8130 (Aug 30, 2012)

mikefrommaine said:


> High lift pallet jack.


 
Pics and/or link?

ac


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## BoilerMan (Aug 30, 2012)

Believe it or not a "cherry picker" engine hoist may have enough gusto for it. portable too.

Thats how the buyer of my old new yorker unloaded it off my truck, but that is a conventional smoke dragon @600 pounds.

TS


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## mikefrommaine (Aug 30, 2012)

avc8130 said:


> Pics and/or link?
> 
> ac



http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200317334_200317334


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## avc8130 (Aug 30, 2012)

Hmm, at that price I'll need to find a local rental place.

ac


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## mikefrommaine (Aug 30, 2012)

avc8130 said:


> Hmm, at that price I'll need to find a local rental place.
> 
> ac



Or get him to come down on the price.


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## avc8130 (Aug 30, 2012)

mikefrommaine said:


> Or get him to come down on the price.


 
I'll see if life is that easy...but sometimes it just isn't. 

ac


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## velvetfoot (Sep 5, 2012)

ac

How are you doing with the fuel use measurement?
I looked at some historical bills, and I'm looking at something like 23 gal/mo.


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## avc8130 (Sep 5, 2012)

velvetfoot said:


> ac
> 
> How are you doing with the fuel use measurement?
> I looked at some historical bills, and I'm looking at something like 23 gal/mo.


 

WOW!

I'm at 1.5% on-time.  .3 hour/day = 1.25 X .3 = .375 gallon/day

Should translate to ~11 gallons/month. 

ac


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## maple1 (Sep 5, 2012)

So did you get the Tarm?


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## avc8130 (Sep 5, 2012)

maple1 said:


> So did you get the Tarm?


 
Working on it.  The seller still needs to pick his replacement and get it un-installed.

ac


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