# insulate next step... walls...



## maverick06 (Mar 16, 2017)

I have a split level house built in about 1952. Its cold in the winter and hot in the summer. I put in R30 insulation in the attic over about an inch of rockwool and then about 7" of fiberglass (was at the top of the joists initially). So I am satisfied with the attic, it made a huge difference.

Windows are all moderately new, everything is doublepane and no notable drafts from them.

the exterior walls are so cold though, I think this really needs to be the next step. I have a friend in mass who did it to a much larger house for $3800 and the state paid for $2k of it.

I am looking into the best options here. And specifically if there are any PA programs to help fund this, I haven't found them yet...

I would prefer if this can be done from the outside. I have vinyl siding outside, assume iti would be easy to pop off a row and spray/blow in whatever. I am not sure what is best to do in that method, or where to shop around for contractors. The friend in Mass said it was highly regulated what insulation materials were refundable.

I am in media, pa (just outside of Philadelphia). Any comments would be appreciated.


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## saewoody (Mar 16, 2017)

Being from CT, I don't know about any rebate programs in PA, but I do know that we did blow in insulation from the outside a few years ago and the improvement was amazing.  Our house was a 900+ sq ft 1938 Cape with only an attic upstairs (no bedrooms). We went from heating that with 4-5 cords to heating the original house plus a full second floor addition and a 250sq ft addition off the kitchen with the same 4-5 cords. They do just what you said; pull of a row of siding and drill 2" holes and blow the insulation in, then fill the hole with a plug.  Ours was done near the top of the wall as well as half way up. Well worth the money. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## blades (Mar 16, 2017)

blown in dense packed cellulose or foam for walls.  Recommend using a contractor very familiar with either for this job. Not a diy.


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## velvetfoot (Mar 16, 2017)

They didn't put any insulation in the walls in 1952?


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## EatenByLimestone (Mar 16, 2017)

They didn't put any in my 1946 cape.  Having cellulose put into the walls made a huge difference in comfort.  And the house is quiet too!


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## maverick06 (Mar 16, 2017)

the few wall cavities i have had to go into were empty, and the temperatures are quite cold on the walls.


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## EatenByLimestone (Mar 16, 2017)

Oh, run any new outlets you might want on the exterior walls before they start!


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## blades (Mar 17, 2017)

Ditto on interior as well


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## woodgeek (Mar 17, 2017)

Yup.  Wall insulation was optional in the 1950s around here.  By 1960 some of the walls had fiberglass, but it was so expensive, they put 1" or 2" thick 'econobatts' in there (I think I have some of those).

Answering Mav's question: I got help from PA for an energy retrofit, and it was in the form of a low interest loan to cover 100% of the work, to be paid entirely by me.  I think they charge me 1% interest over 10 years, and they paid the first 6 months (including principal), or something like that.  Worked out to be an effectively zero cost to finance for 10 years, and that worked for me if the payback was less than 10 years...no opportunity cost, b/c there is no upfront charge, and the loan gets paid off from savings.

Of course, the state has to pay the loan agency an unspecified rate to offer these terms, and the program gets funded in a lump sum every few years by the PA statehouse.  And then when the money gets used up, no more loans.  The retrofit contractors go from feast to famine and back again....not the most efficient process.

I did mine like 4 years ago, and my neighbor more like 7-8 years ago (same terms).  Maybe the statehouse will drop another bolus soon...I wouldn't bet on it.


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## Circus (Mar 17, 2017)

blades said:


> blown in dense packed cellulose or foam for walls.  Recommend using a contractor very familiar with either for this job. Not a diy.


I blew cellulose into a rental 25 years ago. It was easy and only a couple hundred dollars. The hardware store that sells the insulation rents the machine. Just blow insulation into the bottom hole of the wall til it spits out the top hole. Walls are a lot more pleasant than blowing cellulose in an attic. An hour of study and you'll be an expert.


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## peakbagger (Mar 17, 2017)

I helped do a couple of homes years ago with cellulose. As Circus describes it was pretty simple, pop or drill the siding top and bottom and then blow upwards. The biggest hassle is renting a rig that is in good shape and finding a circuit that will take the load.  

The cellulose is nice but foaming the walls is even more impressive (but expensive). It cuts sound transmission way down. I think the federal government pays for homes near landing strips to have that done.  A friend had it done and with the air to air heat exchanger turned off, when you close one door from the outside you can feel another exterior door try to open. It pretty well eliminates any air infiltration. That with a window upgrade really quiets things down.


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## venator260 (Mar 17, 2017)

velvetfoot said:


> They didn't put any insulation in the walls in 1952?




My house was build in 1954. They put foil backed kraft paper between the studs and plaster, and that's it. I've insulated the kitchen/dining room and a bathroom so far (gut and redo everything). Big different in the temperature of the walls. I can look at my roof when it has snow and tell where I've improved the attic insulation as well (1.5 story, so the attic spaces are split up).

I'm glad to hear that blown in cellulose is a DIYable job. I don't really want to gut my living room, but I would like to insulate the walls. I'll be paying enough contractors over the next year (an excavator, a building contractor, and fireplace installer). Didn't want to have to hire another one.


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## velvetfoot (Mar 17, 2017)

As far as retrofitting insulation, it seems better to have no insulation in a wall compared to some weak  stuff.


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## woodgeek (Mar 18, 2017)

If I were filling walls, I would want *densepack* cellulose for airsealing and no settling, and do NOT consider that to be a DIY job.  An experienced pro will show up with a truck mounted hopper/blower, make short work of the job, and leave you no gaps anywhere.


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## Ashful (Mar 18, 2017)

woodgeek said:


> If I were filling walls, I would want *densepack* cellulose for airsealing and no settling, and do NOT consider that to be a DIY job.  An experienced pro will show up with a truck mounted hopper/blower, make short work of the job, and leave you no gaps anywhere.



Exactly.  The DIY jobs often leave the upper foot or two of wall cavity empty, after settling.


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## velvetfoot (Mar 18, 2017)

How's foam nowadays?


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## EatenByLimestone (Mar 18, 2017)

I had a foam company suggest and install the cellulose.  They felt foam is best applied when walls were open.  I had called them to inject foam into the walls.   It was surprisingly affordable.


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## Circus (Mar 18, 2017)

Ashful said:


> Exactly.  The DIY jobs often leave the upper foot or two of wall cavity empty, after settling.


Looks like only a question of technique, and $10 of vinyl tubing.


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## Ashful (Mar 18, 2017)

velvetfoot said:


> How's foam nowadays?


I used it in my barn/shop.  Crazy tight, like pop-your-ears tight, if someone slams a door.  My favorite choice for new construction, but it's not an easy retrofit unless you're planning a full gutting.


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## semipro (Mar 18, 2017)

Circus said:


> Looks like only a question of technique, and $10 of vinyl tubing.



I'd be a lot more impressed if Brad did that without the benefit of see-through walls. 
Your point is valid though.  Technique makes a big difference.


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## Brian26 (Mar 18, 2017)

I was surprised when I ripped into a wall in my 1958 built house to find 2 inch insulation bats. I may have it tested as some online research suggests it probably contains asbestos but nobody seems to know for sure. Its behind the walls and sealed so I am not going to worry about it.  I will say though that its works really well considering how old it is and back then I am assuming insulation was kind of new.  Based off using my FLIR it seems to be insulating extremely well on the exterior walls.

Its Red Top brand by US Gypsum.


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## maverick06 (Mar 19, 2017)

well i have about 8 contractors which do this type of job. many are injection foam, some are cellulose. at least one is clear that its dense pack, not so sure about the others. now to get some quotes and decide whats better, foam or dense packed cellulose. I guess the latter, but am not really sure...


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## woodgeek (Mar 19, 2017)

I think foam is ok in moderation when you've got a special application (like a rim joist or need a lot of R in a very thin space), but there are technical things that can go wrong, leading to shrinkage (and loss of performance) or offgassing odors. 

I am on the fence re the safety of the chemicals offgassed by the foams....it seems poorly regulated with a lot of BS like 'its made of soybean oil', when it is 10% soybean oil and the other 90% is polyurethane.  And cavity fill (as opposed to spraying an open cavity) seems like it is tricky to get right.

While I would be fine to have a (warrantied) outfit do a small area of my house (and hope to pull the trigger later this spring, probably with Amerifoam, in a below grade application) I would balk at doing the entire house exterior walls with cavity fill foam.

Densepack cellulose is totally where its at, cheap, very green and zero outgassing.  A good install is all about operator skill and experience...find someone that has been doing it for a while.  I had some good densepack cellulose guys at Orange Energy work on my house.  Only issue is do you get the stuff with sulfate flame retardant or the slightly more expensive stuff with borate flame retardant? They say the sulfate is corrosive and can attack your wiring....after a long period of time.  I don't think its a big deal, neither material is particularly toxic.  After my densepack work there was a little gray dust around, that had a slightly acrid smell.  When the dust was gone after cleanup, the smell was gone too.


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## semipro (Mar 19, 2017)

I share the concern of others related to shrinkage and out-gassing of sprayed foam.
Properly installed dense (even medium) packed cellulose has a compressive springiness to it that I like as far as long term air seal maintenance.
I packed cellulose in various cantilevered floor portions of our house using a big box machine and was impressed with the density I got. I later had to remove a soffit board below the packed cellulose for unrelated reasons and was impressed at how much pressure the packed cellulose was exerting on it. It seemed far more than he weight of the cellulose alone. 
If I had work done by others I'd want verification of their work using an IR camera.  Unpacked voids readily show up using IR.  I'd expect a seasoned installer to do this as part of their install.


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## blades (Mar 20, 2017)

Please not that the rental machines do not, for the most part, supply the correct pressure /velocity/volume ( I forget the numbers, easily found on the net) for enclosed cavity work like existing walls ( dense pack). They are meant for open areas like attics.  So that said ask any contractor what he/she uses for walls vs attic- that will tell the tale quickly if they are honest.  My current place is 90% brick -therefore most of it if not all would have to be done from the inside - just can't go popping 2" holes in the brick work - most contractor quotes should include restoration of the exterior / interior wall- painting would generally be left up to you.


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## brenndatomu (Mar 20, 2017)

woodgeek said:


> I think foam is ok in moderation when you've got a special application (like a rim joist or need a lot of R in a very thin space), but there are technical things that can go wrong, leading to shrinkage (and loss of performance) or offgassing odors.





semipro said:


> I share the concern of others related to shrinkage and out-gassing of sprayed foam.


Airkrete deals with all those issues (and more)...costs about 1/3 more than standard foam...thought about doing it here...went with regular spray foam though, wouldn't do that again.
http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVri6UdBYy64AJ9wnnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTByOHZyb21tBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--/RV=2/RE=1490076219/RO=10/RU=http://www.airkrete.com//RK=0/RS=3c4MvPyyTbWlVHSL6KZ3a7WmVig-


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## velvetfoot (Mar 20, 2017)

What were the problems?


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## brenndatomu (Mar 20, 2017)

Shrinkage mainly...my installer had equipment issues that caused some other issues too


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## brenndatomu (Mar 20, 2017)

My house is a 1940 brick cape cod. Insulating my walls backfired on me...it actually extended my heating season. Before, my brick walls would heat up during the day and warm the house overnight...when I did the wall insulation (and low E windows) I lost all my solar gain...now I have to fire the stove up anytime the daytime temps don't get up to at least 72-75* or so.
It may be just _a bit_ easier to heat in the depth of January...but overall, insulating was a step backwards for us...bet ya never heard that one before!


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## Highbeam (Mar 21, 2017)

In my 1963 house they used R5, 1.5" thick, foil faced batts in the walls. Just enough insulation to get in the way of blown in products. Can these blown in products be installed with a batt in the wall or will the batt bunch up and cause blockage?

I've installed proper R-13 FG in walls that I've rebuilt from the studs but that's only about 50% of the house. Ripping sheetrock out of bedrooms doesn't sound like much fun.


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## blades (Mar 21, 2017)

Contractor at my place for estimate didn't seem to think that was going to be a problem , but then this place has to be done from the inside.


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## maverick06 (Mar 28, 2017)

Jeeeeeeeeez so the contractor i expected to be cheapest showed up.... well, I didnt realize that to get the the walls below the windows that the vinyl siding has to be taken down... nearly the entire house siding down and then back up. The siding is fine, but a bit dated. 

Point being, the estimate was 3 times what was expected. Its not like i have a big house or anything, and only one side is two stories (split level). Anyways, I have at least one more contractor showing up. but at this cost, the return on investment  would be forever in a day... i guess if i was burning oil it would be better, but burning wood... nope... the economy isnt there yet.... lets see what other options we have... pretty disappointed.


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## Ashful (Mar 28, 2017)

Yes, I believe you on the ROI calculations.  But don't forget to include some return for comfort, if that's a factor.


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## BrotherBart (Mar 28, 2017)

Ashful said:


> But don't forget to include some return for comfort, if that's a factor.



Like there is another reason to burn wood? Same temp in the place with or without wood. But with wood, it is warm. Can't explain it.


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