# regulation on seasoned wood guarantee weigh in gang



## stoveguy2esw (Jul 25, 2014)

a thread in the woodstove room prompted this one.

the point was raised that properly seasoned wood would make a huge difference in particulate release, possibly more so than the potential reduction from the tighter EPA standards being proposed these days to replace Phase 2.

the question;  how could this be accomplished in ways that do not drive folks out of the wood burning option due to added expenses, and in what ways could this be realistically accomplished?

have at it gang, this one could be fun and educational as well. we want ideas not partisanship! so lets stay on topic.


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## velvetfoot (Jul 25, 2014)

I thought a catalytic converter was the answer to everything.


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## bmblank (Jul 25, 2014)

The regulations would just drive the price of wood up. It's hard to make money in selling firewood as it is unless you have quite the operation.
If they're going to do something like that I sure hope they wouldn't end up regulating individuals burning their own wood. Then it wouldn't affect me as much.
I suppose wood as a fuel can't be compared straight up to gas or the others. It's hard to come up with your own source of gas.


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## stoveguy2esw (Jul 25, 2014)

im thinking strictly retailed wood, not "cut it myself" I don't want the "smoke police" standing in my driveway trying to see how much smoke is coming out my stack, I doubt anyone would want that.

the idea is to discuss ways that lead to more wood burners will burn seasoned wood to cut down on the higher emissions that occur from burning non seasoned wood.


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## semipro (Jul 25, 2014)

Voluntary certification might work -- something similar to what's been done for "organic" crops. 
At least this would serve to educate and probably lead to burners making better choices whether they cut it themselves or buy it. 
Whether you decide to buy organic or not most folks at least have some idea of what it means nowadays.


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## blades (Jul 26, 2014)

The minute you say regulatory that adds the Gov. into the picture= $ increase. We all know what happens once the gov gets into it. Would it kill the industry completely - no, but it would revert to strictly an ambiance type activity for the most part.   There is very little margin on selling wood as it is - adding more regulations may seem like a good idea - in practacality is a pxxx poor way of education of the public at large at the expense of a very small segment of society.


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## begreen (Jul 26, 2014)

The only regulation needed is that if one 'advertises' seasoned wood, then the moisture content must be at or less than a predetermined number, say 20%. This is the same as saying a cord of wood must be 128 cu ft.. Our state's weights and measures enforces this reg.. Regulations don't always add cost.

The point is to end the ruse of calling damp-in-the-core, poorly seasoned wood - seasoned. That is a dishonest but common practice.  If you want to sell unseasoned wood cheaper, no problem, but you should not be allowed to call it seasoned. Yes, seasoned wood may cost more, it often does. But that hasn't put folks that sell the real mccoy out of business. If anything it often boosts  business once word gets out and people become educated about the difference.

At the beginning of every heating season we get dozens of people complaining that their stove doesn't work when it has nothing to do with the stove. It's the wood. If these people can find dry wood they will buy it. The smart ones will also start buying lower priced unseasoned wood a year or two in advance. If one has limited space to store wood then buying truly seasoned wood or a compressed wood product is usually the best solution.


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## JustWood (Jul 28, 2014)

With the ban on some OWB's in NYS I saw an increase in people asking for seasoned wood. I believe that NYS or a manufacturer may have got mailing lists from OWB retailers of past owners and sent out flyers about proper burning practices . I heard about the flyer but never saw one and don't know the source.
I think education on the individual burner  is the only way this will work.
Regulation on predrying before the sale will kill the industry. I know I wood be done the minute any regs kicked in. The price of wood , would double overnite. Maybe triple.
I've thought about drying using waste heat from an industry as the source. But big industry isn't going to blink an eye at a firewood vendor no matter how large.
Even with a free energy source to dry the wood the infrastructure and handling is going to dramatically increase the price of wood.


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## velvetfoot (Jul 28, 2014)

JustWood said:


> Even with a free energy source the infrastructure and handling is going to dramatically increase the price of wood


up to the price of pellets, which might be the ultimate goal anyway.


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## fossil (Jul 28, 2014)

What about if wood sellers informed the consumers about the moisture content of the wood they're buying and told them that in order to get maximum performance (and pollution compliance) out of their wood-burning appliance, this wood really needs to be stacked and stored in sun/wind exposure for about xxx months, years, whatever...and here are the reasons why...?  I agree that education of the end user is the ultimate solution, not regulation/additional requirements on the wood providers.  We all need to work together on this.  Rick


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## begreen (Jul 28, 2014)

That presumes all wood sellers are honest. Not going to happen. That is why WA state weights and measures put some teeth behind the definition of a cord. If you sell wood as "seasoned" is should stand up to an established measure of moisture with some teeth behind it if you try to sell seasoned wood that isn't. This is not forcing wood sellers to sell dry wood, it is protecting the consumer.


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## fossil (Jul 28, 2014)

OK, so wood sellers are liars and consumers are stupid.


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## begreen (Jul 28, 2014)

Not all in either case, but yes both happen with greater frequency than one would like to see. Locally there are a lot of folks that sell wood as seasoned, but when questioned you find that it was cut into log lengths last year, but cut into rounds and split last week. In fall we hear too many reports of folks buying 'seasoned' wood that isn't. They are not stupid, they are naive and new buyers. That's why they blame the stove first. They trusted the seller. There are also pros like Lee or NWFuels that deliver what they say they will deliver. They are in it for the long haul and take pride in their reputation.


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## semipro (Jul 29, 2014)

fossil said:


> OK, so wood sellers are liars and consumers are stupid.


I think many wood sellers are just ignorant themselves.  
I was checking out a local vendors pile of splits and broke out my moisture meter.  It was blatantly obvious the fellow had never seen one before. 

Also, I think there's a big difference between being "stupid" and being "ignorant".


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## JustWood (Jul 29, 2014)

fossil said:


> What about if wood sellers informed the consumers about the moisture content of the wood they're buying and told them that in order to get maximum performance (and pollution compliance) out of their wood-burning appliance, this wood really needs to be stacked and stored in sun/wind exposure for about xxx months, years, whatever...and here are the reasons why...?  I agree that education of the end user is the ultimate solution, not regulation/additional requirements on the wood providers.  We all need to work together on this.  Rick


I've been trying to educate for 26 years. It doesn't work.
90% of the volume I move is green 6 months or less off the stump with near zero complaints. If there is a complaint it's usually in the beginning of winter when rain changing to snow. Slush covered wood just don't burn even if seasoned.
2004-2006 was my first try at seasoned . Bought 2 processors and other support equipment and I put up 4-5000 cord to sell beyond green sales with a 20% premium in price over green . I couldn't sell it . I figure I lost about 10% overall too rot. I'm down to around 200 cord right now . I separated the beech and maple and sold it first as it rots faster. Kept the cherry and oak to sell last. Glad I did. It limited my losses.
My point is that education needs to start at the end user. The vendors will be forced to follow the market. Potential good vendors will be lost to the same fate I suffered. My only saving grace was I sold all but one piece of equipment at a profit.
There was no reason for the end user to follow my lead when there were other cheaper/easier options. If all end users are educated at the same time an instantaneous demand for the required product will be created.
Regulation on the vendor will only create an inflated market for a few years before it levels.


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## BrotherBart (Jul 29, 2014)

"the only winning move is not to play"

  - Josuha


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## begreen (Jul 29, 2014)

Agreed Lee. Education must start at the user. That is why we are here and do what we do.


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## semipro (Jul 29, 2014)

begreen said:


> Agreed Lee. Education must start at the user. That is why we are here and do what we do.


And why I think someone with deeper pockets and a greater public impact should get involved in the education.  
Its just possible that a little money spent this way would have significant impacts on air quality and energy efficiency.  
EPA and DOE come to mind but the kind of folks that think seasoning is unimportant probably wouldn't listen to them anyway.


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## semipro (Jul 29, 2014)

JustWood said:


> I've been trying to educate for 26 years. It doesn't work.
> 90% of the volume I move is green 6 months or less off the stump with near zero complaints. If there is a complaint it's usually in the beginning of winter when rain changing to snow. Slush covered wood just don't burn even if seasoned.
> 2004-2006 was my first try at seasoned . Bought 2 processors and other support equipment and I put up 4-5000 cord to sell beyond green sales with a 20% premium in price over green . I couldn't sell it . I figure I lost about 10% overall too rot. I'm down to around 200 cord right now . I separated the beech and maple and sold it first as it rots faster. Kept the cherry and oak to sell last. Glad I did. It limited my losses.
> My point is that education needs to start at the end user. The vendors will be forced to follow the market. Potential good vendors will be lost to the same fate I suffered. My only saving grace was I sold all but one piece of equipment at a profit.
> ...


This situation reminds me of one some of my builder friends experience -- home buyers seldom recognize or appreciate the value of buying a well-built home, nor are they usually willing to pay for it.


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## velvetfoot (Jul 29, 2014)

If burning stick wood was regulated out of existance, (see coal fired power plants), the only wood alternative left would be pellets, which are more uniform in nature.


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## peakbagger (Jul 29, 2014)

I think a typical consumer used the expensive education approach. Complain about fuel prices, buy an EPA stove or boiler, buy some green firewood in September to burn in October, go through a cold winter trying to burn green wood and then if they don't sell the stove get some green wood in the spring. Then experience a slightly better winter with 6 month dry wood and finally figure out a way to get ahead on wood for the third year and then have time to post on Hearth.com to newbees about burning green wood.


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## branchburner (Jul 29, 2014)

begreen said:


> The only regulation needed is that if one 'advertises' seasoned wood, then the moisture content must be at or less than a predetermined number, say 20%. This is the same as saying a cord of wood must be 128 cu ft.



Agree 100%. I would suggest since "seasoned" is already an abused and meaningless word, that the legal standard (at or less than 20%?) go by a different name, such as "Ready-To-Burn" or a similar designation that would be used exclusively for wood meeting the legal requirements. Otherwise the claim of ignorance -- "I didn't know what 'seasoned' meant" -- will be never-ending.

It would be futile to expect significant change to come from wood sellers at large... they are largely responding to the consumer demand for the cheapest wood, which means the greenest, and which puts pressure on them to cut costs (if not corners). But change would be helped by the smaller subset of proactive wood sellers who understand and promote the benefits of properly seasoned wood, and advise their customers to either pay a premium for pre-seasoned wood or to always buy at least a year ahead if buying green.

The best "push" would come from stove manufacturers and stove dealers. Stove makers already discuss the importance of dry wood in the owners' manuals, but in such a way that it's hidden among seemingly more important info and is easily missed or ignored by many consumers. In a previous thread I recommended that manufacturers go so far as to suggest the warranty may be void if the stove owner burns green wood. This does not mean manufacturers actually refuse to honor the warranty based on such a suspicion (unprovable, in any event)... it simply means greater awareness is brought to the consumer, because he suddenly see dollar signs on the other side of the ledger when weighing the (false) savings of burning subpar wood. It's not that far off from telling them not to burn garbage in the stove or to overfire it.

Stove dealers can point out to their customers this "official" warranty requirement to burn dry wood, and help their customers by advising which local wood sellers supply "Ready-To-Burn" wood, or by advising to get a year ahead if buying green or cutting one's own wood. This initial effort by the dealer, if properly and consistently stressed, also greatly reduces the odds of getting "my stove doesn't work" complaints by users of green wood.

For a company like Englander that sells largely in box stores with lesser customer service, the number one move would be to format brochures and promotional material so that the importance of burning dry wood -- strictly from a performance and heat-output standpoint, if not the suggested warranty standpoint -- is emphasized much more prominently, rather than buried offhand in a few sentences of fine print among the dozens of pages of a typical owners manual. 

Old-timers, or owners of smoke dragons, or stubborn fools, are not going to be educated or swayed from their habits of burning freshly split oak, but the newer generation of wood-burners CAN be educated, and the best source of sparking that education would be at the consumer-retailer interface, with the resources and leverage of stove manufacturers as a driving force.


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## begreen (Jul 29, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> If burning stick wood was regulated out of existance, (see coal fired power plants), the only wood alternative left would be pellets, which are more uniform in nature.


I sure hope that does not become the only option. I would be opposed to that style regulation in general, though I could see it happening for certain urban areas.


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## Highbeam (Jul 30, 2014)

stoveguy2esw said:


> im thinking strictly retailed wood, not "cut it myself" I don't want the "smoke police" standing in my driveway trying to see how much smoke is coming out my stack, I doubt anyone would want that.


 
This already happens. Our local boys have limits on the opacity of smoke allowed to leave your stack. Yes, they sit in your driveway and then write you a very very expensive (think four digits) fine. This applies whether there is a burn ban or not.

Just as woodsellers will claim ignorance about what a cord is, they will also claim ignorance about what the term seasoned means. As such, pick a name whether that is seasoned or dry or ready-to-burn and define it in the law as a particular % moisture. Leave it at that. It is important to note that nobody is requiring all woodsellers to sell wood meeting the either definition but that it is a separate product.

This will create a higher priced wood and a lower priced green wood to reflect the additional work and time needed for seasoned wood. Also, the higher price will reflect the additional risk that the woodseller takes on by claiming dry wood and then having to prove it.

I predict that sellers will just stop using the defined words (dry, seasoned, RTB, etc.) in their ads.

If the goal is really ro reduce emissions then IMO the money needs to be spent on removing the smoke dragons either by law (cheap) or by buy backs (expensive).


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## semipro (Jul 30, 2014)

This discussion prompted me to have a look around at who might best be able to educate on wood fuel quality.  One of the more promising groups appears to be "The Alliance for Green Heat".  These are the folks that promoted the Wood Stove Decathlon (competition)  event in DC.   I reviewed there website and was disappointed that this issue was not front and center.  I wrote to tell them so.  My message and the thoughtful response from John Ackerly, the organization's president, follows.

(Andy)
"There is a general consensus among wood burning experts and advocates that much needs to be done to educate users on the adverse impacts of burning improperly seasoned (green) wood.  Some have even suggested that fuel sources should be regulated to ensure adequate quality.  Most EPA certified wood stoves require fuel seasoned to 20% water content or less to burn as designed.  Use of insufficiently dry wood results in poor stove performance, heating inefficiency, and unnecessary pollution.  In many cases cord wood is sold at "seasoned" when water content is well above that required for clean, efficient burning.
I was very surprised (and disappointed) to see that The Alliance for Green Heat doesn’t seem to place a lot of emphasis on this issue and I can’t help but wonder why?  Yes, there are numerous references to the functional requirement for burning well-seasoned wood within various articles but a problem of this magnitude seems to deserve much greater emphasis.
While I applaud your promotion of the Wood Stove Decathlon, I respectfully suggest that your organization would have a greater beneficial impact through publicizing the importance of fuel quality.  I realize that wood moisture content is not quite as interesting to the general public and others as is new stove technology but much like initiatives to weatherize poorly insulated/sealed buildings, the efforts of wood burning advocates should focus on the basics, issues such as quality fuel."

(John)
Thanks for that feedback.  Its true that we tend to do policy and technology related posts, but we try to mention the importance of seasoned fuel in lots of those posts.  We have spearheaded some fuel related issues, even to the point of questioning whether programs should incentivize wood sheds instead of changing out old stoves. There finally is a firewood association in the US, and we pushed them to focus more on at least some voluntary code or standard that firewood retailers need or could sign on to, but they have not gone that route.  Other countries, as you say, regulate it.

Anyway, thanks for pointing that out and we will try to make it more prominent.


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## begreen (Jul 30, 2014)

We emphasized the need for burning seasoned wood at the Decathlon Q&A session. There needs to be a much wider audience for this message.


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## STIHLY DAN (Jul 30, 2014)

what is this green wood? I have red wood, white wood, brown wood, orange wood, grey wood, but never have I seen this famous green wood.


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## begreen (Jul 30, 2014)

Cut down some poplar. It's yellowish green inside.


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## STIHLY DAN (Jul 30, 2014)

begreen said:


> Cut down some poplar. It's yellowish green inside.



If it's that poplar why have I not seen it?


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## begreen (Jul 31, 2014)

Hard to say. For some folks life's a beech.


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## stoveguy2esw (Aug 2, 2014)

begreen said:


> We emphasized the need for burning seasoned wood at the Decathlon Q&A session. There needs to be a much wider audience for this message.


 

its Johns fault , he didn't have a chorus line or a "big cake"    im kidding, was actually a good thing that happened in DC. hope to be part of the next one especially if its in DC as its close enough to hop up there

that's a hint John


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## BrotherBart (Aug 2, 2014)

I was sitting next to you and blamed it on the manufacturers, and lived.


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## stoveguy2esw (Aug 3, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> I was sitting next to you and blamed it on the manufacturers, and lived.


 
I wasn't gonna tote all those bricks back to Monroe  besides you were right in a way with that. the manufacturers (me included) should take more responsibility in educating our potential customers. we're trying at ESW, but its a slow thing, the retailers aren't helping in some cases either.

aint easy though, the people who don't know from woodburning are actually easier to steer in the right direction. sadly its the "ive been burning wood for 200 years and I know you cant burn overnight without green wood cause it burns hotter and longer". most of those folks , you simply are not going to move off their position no matter how much "education" you throw out there they simply aren't going to accept it. thus , they aren't interested in newer technology because it goes against the grain of what they've known all their life.


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## BrotherBart (Aug 3, 2014)

And the whole time they are telling you this on their iPhone while driving down the road in their 40 MPG car and wanting to end the call so they can turn the sat radio back up.


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## stoveguy2esw (Aug 3, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> And the whole time they are telling you this on their iPhone while driving down the road in their 40 MPG car and wanting to end the call so they can turn the sat radio back up.


 

pretty much.

the thing is , that newer tech such as smartphones are easier for them to wrap their heads around as they are more easily able to adapt to that . with a woodstove they don't see the progress the same way. with a smartphone , one can use it as they did the old phone and learn from there as the "phone" side of it is still pretty much what they are used to. With sat radio, its still the same deal just more stations but the "use" is the same as an old AMFM set. with a "smartstove" however its different as you simply cannot heat with it with green wood. so they do not have a "reference" to work from, its a totally different way of burning wood than the old "dragons"  the use of a "reburn" stove is so much more different than the old tech stoves, unlike the cellphones and sat radios which aren't really that different in their basic functions , they just have more functions that folks can learn while still using the "old tech" parts as they are used to.


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## stoveguy2esw (Aug 3, 2014)

one of the hardest things in my line of work to do is convince a person who has burned wood all their life with fireplaces and old tech stoves, how important seasoned wood is to the newer tech units.

I can equate this to another difficult issue I had when I was the Primary Firearms instructor for the 2/501st AVN over in ROK. even though these troops whom I had been charged with refreshing their BRM skills before going to the range to qualify had completed basic and been taught to shoot well enough to become soldiers, the ones which "grew up shooting" were often harder work with than the ones who had never dropped the hammer in their life prior to basic training. females generally shot better after my classes while a lot of males didn't really improve. the reason? they didn't have the bad habits to *"unlearn".*

with woodstoves , its a similar thing , folks that have burned for decades have simply ingrained these bad habits into their burning practices. for them to be successful with a modern appliance they literally have to be "untaught and retaught" in order to succeed. they have been in their minds successful as they have gotten heat to their expectations using the old ways and when the new ways are in conflict with the old ways its really hard for them to make that leap.


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## renewablejohn (Aug 4, 2014)

We guarantee all our wood sold is less than 20% moisture content which we achieve by the use of solar kilns.


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## stoveguy2esw (Aug 4, 2014)

renewablejohn said:


> We guarantee all our wood sold is less than 20% moisture content which we achieve by the use of solar kilns.


 

great John!, thanks for chiming in , I see you are from England. is there any regulation requiring this over there or is it a business decision to guarantee your wood stock? either way i'd rather buy wood with that guarantee than without it if I were needing wood for immediate consumption even if it were a n extra "quid" or whatever it is over there


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## renewablejohn (Aug 4, 2014)

In UK we have high tech woodstoves which have to meet strict air pollution controls which normally means the stoves have to burn hot which cannot be achieved if the moisture content is higher than 20%. Those who burn wet timber end up with stoves full of tar which can lead to chimney fires.


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## begreen (Aug 4, 2014)

Sounds familiar.


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## stoveguy2esw (Aug 4, 2014)

yeah, we do too, the trick is getting folks to understand that need for dry wood to get proper performance for just the reasons you noted.


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## branchburner (Aug 4, 2014)

renewablejohn said:


> Those who burn wet timber end up with stoves full of tar which can lead to chimney fires.



On this side of the ocean , we have lots of people who like to blame creosote on softwoods like pine (nonsense).

Or who like to blame creosote on the failure of their new-fangled stoves to work properly (nonsense).

Some, to prevent accidental chimney fires from surprising them, choose to periodically clean their flues with on-purpose chimney fires.

We even have a few people who actually burn seasoned wood. But not (other than myself) in my immediate neighborhood. And I myself only learned what REAL seasoned wood was by coming to hearth.com a few years back. For me and everyone I knew, having wood season for over a year (let alone six months) only happened by accident!


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## stoveguy2esw (Aug 4, 2014)

branchburner said:


> On this side of the ocean , we have lots of people who like to blame creosote on softwoods like pine (nonsense).
> 
> Or who like to blame creosote on the failure of their new-fangled stoves to work properly (nonsense).
> 
> ...


 

yup!

mericuh

land of the free home of the idiot.

ok rant over.

too many folks have too many ingrained habits which are simply not conducive to clean burning. the more we strive to "unlearn them" of these bad habits the better for all involved.

well put BranchBurner


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## renewablejohn (Aug 5, 2014)

Dont want to get hung up about drying times but we achieve below 20% moisture content in our solar kilns in less than 3 months during the summer and 6 months during the winter.


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## branchburner (Aug 5, 2014)

renewablejohn said:


> Dont want to get hung up about drying times but we achieve below 20% moisture content in our solar kilns in less than 3 months during the summer and 6 months during the winter.



Use of solar kilns for wood drying is very rare in this neck of the woods. And one of the problems we run into with air-drying times, at least here in the northeast, is that summers can be quite humid. Of course it depends on the species of wood, but something like oak -- which is preferred by many, due to high density/BTUs -- is VERY slow to air-dry to below 20%.

Another problem is that both commercial and home processors sometimes cut wood to length but then leave it unsplit until just before use, or they pile it in massive heaps on the ground rather than stacking, so seasoning is further retarded (and I mean that in both senses of the word).

It's been often discussed in the Woodshed forum, but my preferred method is now single-row stacking in a sunny, open area (again, thanks to those posting in the forums here). I used to stack three rows tightly together, but was amazed at how moist the inside of the pile would sometimes stay without adequate airflow.


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## branchburner (Aug 5, 2014)

stoveguy2esw said:


> the trick is getting folks to understand that need for dry wood to get proper performance for just the reasons you noted.



Mike, do you have any reaction to my suggestion that stove manufacturer's emphasize this more greatly in their manuals, brochures and promotional materials? I realize the importance of seasoned wood is discussed within your brochure sections on operation and creosote, but couldn't there be a cheap and easy way to put even more emphasis on proper fuel use?

From your manual:
"Use only dry, seasoned wood. Green wood, besides burning at only 60 percent of the fuel value 
of dry wood, deposits creosote on the inside of the stove and along the chimney. This can cause 
extreme danger of chimney fire. To be called 'seasoned,' wood must be dried for a year."

This text is good, but buried in the middle of the owners manual inside a lot of pages of other text. It seems that it could be easily repeated on page one and/or page three, along with all the other cautions and CYA content.

You could also do some math and some finance for the reader: if green wood burns at only 60 percent of the fuel value of dry wood, then to get the same effective BTU output you would need to burn 1.67x as much green wood as dry wood. In other words, if you needed six cords of dry wood to heat your house, you would require ten cords of green wood to do the same job! Burning green wood is like burning money.

To go a step further (not that this will too likely happen) you could EASILY change "Damage from over-firing will void your warranty" to read "Damage from over-firing OR BURNING IMPROPER FUEL will void your warranty." Now, "improper fuel" could refer to garbage, plastics, petroleum products OR to green wood. Can burning green wood actually damage your stove? It really doesn't matter! So long as the implication is included, no matter how remote the possibility, the owner is implicitly being told burning green wood is potentially bad. He cannot be told this too often or in too many different ways... this is just one more way to tell him, and it tells him in another way that could hit him in the pocket book.

(As a justification for this inclusion: burning green wood does often cause users to burn at higher air settings. If this becomes habitual, continuing to operate at high air settings when the wood supply changes in quality COULD lead to overfiring. So burning green wood could indirectly damage the stove.)

Thoughts?


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## stoveguy2esw (Aug 5, 2014)

if we made the manuals out of fireproof paper  we'd probably get quite a few back claiming "couldnt get the first fire started"

yeah , i hear ya branchburner.

i'd like to insert a paragraph on the importance of owning a moisture meter (may broach that again wit the boss)

it goes much further than what we do or do not put in the manual. real interactive education is really the best way to get the message out. like BG said we need a bigger audience.


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Aug 5, 2014)

Never brought home dry wood.
the education is best served on the buyer. the market adapts to the need. I have listened to many a sales pitch and they are all slanted to the product they have on hand to unload.
a real wood burning household has many piles of wood. shorts, longs, just rights, softwood, hardwood, kindling, round, split, green, dry etc.  The key is to know what pile to grab from.
The gasser and the new wood stoves are easy to adapt to if you have already been burning wood the proper way. If new to burning wood stocking up early is the answer.


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## branchburner (Aug 5, 2014)

stoveguy2esw said:


> if we made the manuals out of fireproof paper  we'd probably get quite a few back claiming "couldnt get the first fire started"



lol

I'm the first to admit, half the time I don't look at the manual for something I've bought until AFTER things go wrong.

The problem will always be for many people, beyond making sure their setup is ok for safety/code/insurance (if even that), a modern stove is no different than an ancient stove: just a metal box you put wood into, and wood is wood is wood. And how would they even know that they were using too much wood or getting poor performance if they never had good performance to compare?

It like the guy who brought his chainsaw back to the shop because he finally decided it wasn't cutting to his expectations or satisfaction: the dealer starts it up and the guy jumps back and says, "What's that noise!?"


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## stoveguy2esw (Aug 5, 2014)

branchburner said:


> It like the guy who brought his chainsaw back to the shop because he finally decided it wasn't cutting to his expectations or satisfaction: the dealer starts it up and the guy jumps back and says, "What's that noise!?"


 


that may be the single funniest thing ive ever read in here, sad part is i can actually see that happening.


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## hoverwheel (Aug 14, 2014)

Requiring woodsellers to sell only seasoned wood would do nothing but drive up costs and fraud and drive many woodsellers out of business.

Requiring woodsellers to measure moisture content upon delivery, though, and give a on-the-spot reading-in-writing. That might work. 15%? 25%? 60%? All fine - Just disclose it.

Simply handing the card to customer educates them that they ought to be looking at something and the handful of customers that *own* meters should keep cheaters in check.

And apart from requiring the disclosure at all it keeps fools, er, politicians I mean, out of the process.


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## renewablejohn (Aug 14, 2014)

Part of our selling relies on the ability to prove our logs are less than 20%MC so I always carry a moisture meter and an axe to split the log in two. I find it better if you allow the customer to choose which log to split.


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## BrotherBart (Aug 14, 2014)

renewablejohn said:


> Part of our selling relies on the ability to prove our logs are less than 20%MC so I always carry a moisture meter and an axe to split the log in two. I find it better if you allow the customer to choose which log to split.



There is a special place awaiting you in Wood Burner's Heaven John.


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## renewablejohn (Aug 15, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> There is a special place awaiting you in Wood Burner's Heaven John.



Its just business sense. We rely on our competitors selling wet wood and have never had to advertise our dry wood it just sells by word of mouth.


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