# Ariens rideon lawnmower - any experiences??



## Swedishchef (May 11, 2014)

Hey guys

I am in the mood to get a rideon lawnmower. I have about 12000 sq feet of lawn to be mowed. I just seeded the back last fall (about 5000 sq ft) so until then I would push. BUt now I see that if I push mow the entire thing I am guessing it will take me 3-4 hours (PLUS my front and sides are so thick that I need to mow it twice a week). No thanks.....I want to have a life on days off!!

I am looking at the 20Hp Ariens rideon mower. In Canada they offer 0% financing (might as well take them on the deal and pocket the $2400). Does anyone have ANY experience with an Ariens rideon?

If the quality of the mowers are anything compared to the blowers, it should be a great machine.

Thanks!

Andrew


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## velvetfoot (May 11, 2014)

I've had one for several years now and it's been fine.  It's actually a Husqvarna and was made in the Carolinas.  I bought it from Home Depot online and had a coupon.  They dropped it off in front of my house.  I've been using it a lot with a garden cart to haul firewood.  It has the B&S V-Twin motor.  Haven't had any problem, except that now everytime I put it away I plug in a trickle charger.  I got it stuck on a hill at a corner a couple times and filled the tires with windshield washer antifreeze and put some wheel weights on the back;  Craftsman weights worked.  I'm not sure if you can buy a lot a accessories for it, and you're not going to drag a plow behind it, but it does the job for me.
PS:  This is my first lawn tractor and I have to say that the hydrostatic transmission is very nice.


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## gzecc (May 11, 2014)

I personally would consider a high quality used machine. Realize that machine will loose probably 40% of its value the day you bring it home. Probably another 25% a year later. Buy the same machine lightly used and it will retain its value for a few years then start to decline if you maintain it well.


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## bassJAM (May 12, 2014)

gzecc said:


> I personally would consider a high quality used machine. Realize that machine will loose probably 40% of its value the day you bring it home. Probably another 25% a year later. Buy the same machine lightly used and it will retain its value for a few years then start to decline if you maintain it well.



That's be my choice too.  Maybe find an used garden tractor as opposed to a riding mower, you'll be passing that on to your children!

Or a used commercial walk behind.  A 36" cut would probably do you pretty well.


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## Highbeam (May 12, 2014)

If the ariens is the same as husky then it is the same as craftsman and poulan. They're all MTD and I have the craftsman version. I mow about 3/4 of an acre with mine and bag the clippings.

It's great. I do NOT recommend a hydrostatic transmission as they are weak and will be the first thing to fail. Get one with a clutch and manual blade engagement. Basicly, their economy model. Less stuff to break. Honestly, the first significant thing I expect to fail is the deck rusting through which is pretty decent.

Mine has the 19 HP single cylinder briggs engine which is fine except it is known for blowing headgaskets. I replaced the head gasket a couple of months ago. Easy and cheap to do but inconvenient if it pops during mowing season and even worse if you don't notice the oil burning and run it low on oil which leads to blown up engines.


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## maple1 (May 12, 2014)

I've got a JD LA135. My wife won it in a raffle of all things (oh happy day), so not sure what I would get if I was buying new. But it's been great - at least compared to our old Yardman 12/38. B&S twin, hydro. No complaints.

I think if I were to go looking for a replacement - I would look for a blower/mower package. Lightly used & well maintained. Able to do more than just mow. Sized to everything you think you might be able to use it for. I can't go too big for a mower here due to tight spaces and very hilly terrain.


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## Highbeam (May 12, 2014)

Oh and on the wasted time thing..... Get a big mower. As wide a deck as you can work with. I waste dozens of hours (and fuel)mowing the lawn during the best hours of my life. It's fun for awhile but when it is summer, daylight, and dry outside isn't there something else you would rather be doing?

Make efforts to reduce mow time as much as possible.


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## jeff_t (May 12, 2014)

I had an Ariens 42" ZT for about ten years. It was okay, but too light duty for what I mow. I was replacing the cast aluminum spindle housings almost anually, and the BS crapped out in year 9. But for a smooth 12000 sq ft, it would probably last forever. 

I replaced it with a Gravely HD 60. It is supppsed to be in between a commercial and homeowner model. It has a lot of commercial features, but is priced right. Though Ariens owns Gravely, the lines are pretty much separate. And I'm pretty sure Ariens doesn't rebrand anything MTD.

If you have a good OPE dealer nearby, don't leave them out. I was looking hard at the Bad Boy mower at TSC, but got the Gravely for the same price. They look similar on paper, but there really isn't any comparison. And I got 48 months, 0% financing.


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## Jags (May 12, 2014)

Oh how I wished I could "like" highbeams post about a 1000 times.


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## jeff_t (May 12, 2014)

Jags said:


> Oh how I wished I could "like" highbeams post about a 1000 times.



Amen. 

I used to hate mowing. What took me 2.5 hours with the Ariens now takes about 45 minutes. I look forward to it now. That, and I don't worry about what's gonna break next.


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## Jags (May 12, 2014)

I mow 5 acres.


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## begreen (May 12, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> If the ariens is the same as husky then it is the same as craftsman and poulan. They're all MTD and I have the craftsman version. I mow about 3/4 of an acre with mine and bag the clippings.
> 
> It's great. I do NOT recommend a hydrostatic transmission as they are weak and will be the first thing to fail. Get one with a clutch and manual blade engagement. Basicly, their economy model. Less stuff to break. Honestly, the first significant thing I expect to fail is the deck rusting through which is pretty decent.
> 
> Mine has the 19 HP single cylinder briggs engine which is fine except it is known for blowing headgaskets. I replaced the head gasket a couple of months ago. Easy and cheap to do but inconvenient if it pops during mowing season and even worse if you don't notice the oil burning and run it low on oil which leads to blown up engines.



Agreed. I have had the same mower but with the Kohler 18hp motor. It is a workhorse.


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## begreen (May 12, 2014)

Jags said:


> I mow 5 acres.


Hopefully with a tractor and a field mower.


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## Jags (May 12, 2014)

begreen said:


> Hopefully with a tractor and a field mower.


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## Highbeam (May 12, 2014)

I can mow about an acre per hour with the tractor but it weighs 4500#s and would be too rough of a cut for the lawn. An acre per hour doesn't sound long but when you have 10 acres to do it gets real long.


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## begreen (May 12, 2014)

One can let a field get knee high before mowing. Usually a couple times a year is sufficient. I mow our small fields (.5 ac.) with the Craftsman about once every couple weeks during spring. There is no way I would be mowing acres of lawn. Takes too much time and uses too much fuel to be practical.


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## Jags (May 12, 2014)

The back part (2.5 acres) gets mowed at about 1:3 ratio of the "yard".  I started doing that a few years ago.


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## Highbeam (May 12, 2014)

I love to mow deep fields. So long as I know there are no stumps, cars, wads of barbed wire, or holes to fall into. My favorite height is eye level when seated in the operator station so about 6 feet tall. At that depth you're really accomplishing something and you see much more wildlife, though it is often chopped up. The eagles and coyotes seem to appreciate the lunch.

It is mowing season and I plan to spend all day on Saturday spinning the blades.

But yes, three or four times a year. If I wasn't trying to sell the woodlot, I could mow once per year and that would take care of all the trees and undesirable growth. The mowers can mow anything thinner than your wrist without slowing down.


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## Retired Guy (May 12, 2014)

Ariens is a top brand in the states. However the brand name products sold at big box stores are sometimes not the same as those bought from an authorized dealer.


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## Highbeam (May 12, 2014)

jeff_t said:


> And I'm pretty sure Ariens doesn't rebrand anything MTD.


 
Turns out they do. If not MTD it is the HOP/EHP/ AYP megacorp. Like so many brand names, the low end products are typical mass produced made by the same factory that makes husky, craftsman, etc. That's a good thing in my mind since replacement parts are cheap and plentiful.


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## AK13 (May 12, 2014)

I'm a Simplicity guy myself. I think they have the best decks. I used to get a terrible mow with my Craftsman (MTD) because my yard is uneven the deck was always hanging off to the side. 

I also LOVE the quick release deck. I wouldn't own a mower without it again. I can drop my deck in about 2 minutes and wheel it away which makes the machine able to go out in the woods to haul wood!

I also wouldn't want a mower without the "positrac" feature. I forget what its called, but it lets you lock both rear wheels when one spins. Its great. 

Lastly, I love the "pedal drive" and would want that from now on as well. One pedal for forward, one for reverse. I vote to buy a used, high quality mower.


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## jeff_t (May 12, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> Turns out they do. If not MTD it is the HOP/EHP/ AYP megacorp. Like so many brand names, the low end products are typical mass produced made by the same factory that makes husky, craftsman, etc. That's a good thing in my mind since replacement parts are cheap and plentiful.



Yeah, I don't know anymore. I know there used to be a couple of Ariens models that were rebadged by Gravely, and even New Holland, so those dealers would have a cheap, low end unit to sell. Surprised Ariens would have to go cheaper yet, but I guess that's what happens when you play the box store game.


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## jeff_t (May 12, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> Turns out they do. If not MTD it is the HOP/EHP/ AYP megacorp. Like so many brand names, the low end products are typical mass produced made by the same factory that makes husky, craftsman, etc. That's a good thing in my mind since replacement parts are cheap and plentiful.



Yeah, I don't know anymore. I know there used to be a couple of Ariens models that were rebadged by Gravely, and even New Holland, so those dealers would have a cheap, low end unit to sell. Surprised Ariens would have to go cheaper yet, but I guess that's what happens when you play the box store game.


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## Swedishchef (May 12, 2014)

Wows...tons of awesome replies.

I believe ariens have 1 model that is made by husqvarna. I think All others are made in the US and not with plastic parts. Not too certain. When it comes to blowers I know that Poulan, MTD, Yardworks, etc are the same company but ariens are not part of it.

As for buying used, I would love to. But I can't. There is no market for used mowers around here.........it sucks. So I figured I would go new, 20 hp Kohler engine. With a dumping tailer to tow..........


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## BrotherBart (May 12, 2014)

Husqvarna, owned by Electrolux at the time, bought Roper's lawn equipment division in the states in 1988 and renamed it American Yard Products (AYP). They make a majority of the stuff here under different labels now. They made my Husqvarna garden tractor which is exactly the same one as the Craftsman GT5000.


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## begreen (May 12, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> I love to mow deep fields. So long as I know there are no stumps, cars, wads of barbed wire, or holes to fall into. My favorite height is eye level when seated in the operator station so about 6 feet tall. At that depth you're really accomplishing something and you see much more wildlife, though it is often chopped up. The eagles and coyotes seem to appreciate the lunch.
> 
> It is mowing season and I plan to spend all day on Saturday spinning the blades.
> 
> But yes, three or four times a year. If I wasn't trying to sell the woodlot, I could mow once per year and that would take care of all the trees and undesirable growth. The mowers can mow anything thinner than your wrist without slowing down.



This doesn't sound like Craftsman territory. Are you field mowing with the tractor?


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## Highbeam (May 13, 2014)

begreen said:


> This doesn't sound like Craftsman territory. Are you field mowing with the tractor?


 
Oh yes, the riding mower is for lawn and the tractor is for fields/pasture/blackberries etc.


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## bag of hammers (May 13, 2014)

Wow - how do you guys keep all these brands / re-brands straight?  How can anyone know for sure (when they buy a piece of equipment) who actually manufactures it?  Makes my head spin (which doesn't take much these days, but nevertheless....)


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## BrotherBart (May 13, 2014)

Not much different than cars or anything else. Bought a "US" Plymouth one time and ended up with one from Canada with a Mitsubishi engine. In 1991 I bought a pro line Poulan "US" chainsaw. Ended up with a re-badged Partner saw with a big red maple leaf sticker on the side of it. 

In the case of my garden tractor it is a good thing. When I need parts I just log on to Sears Parts Direct and order the parts for a Craftsman GT5000.


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## Highbeam (May 13, 2014)

bag of hammers said:


> Wow - how do you guys keep all these brands / re-brands straight?  How can anyone know for sure (when they buy a piece of equipment) who actually manufactures it?  Makes my head spin (which doesn't take much these days, but nevertheless....)


 
Welcome to the global economy. Truth is, it doesn't matter who actually manufactured it. The important thing is that the machine performs as you expect, and replacement parts are available for as long as it is intended to last. How long it lasts is just one of the specifications.


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## velvetfoot (May 13, 2014)

Here is a picture from earlier this evening:


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## Retired Guy (May 14, 2014)

Looks like retirement to me. Nice stacks!


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## maple1 (May 16, 2014)

I've got a little wagon like that. One tire went flat over the winter and I'm having a heck of a time now getting it to hold air. I slobbered it with bead sealer a couple days ago & pumped it up again, haven't gone back to check it yet since I did that. Might go looking for solid rubber for it, if there's something to be found.

Nice wheels!


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## velvetfoot (May 16, 2014)

maple1 said:


> I've got a little wagon like that. One tire went flat over the winter and I'm having a heck of a time now getting it to hold air. I slobbered it with bead sealer a couple days ago & pumped it up again, haven't gone back to check it yet since I did that. Might go looking for solid rubber for it, if there's something to be found.
> 
> Nice wheels!


I have yet to take off a little tire off.  Plenty of bicycle tires.  I don't have the tools.  Perhaps one day it will become necessary.
What I have used with some success on generator and wheelbarrow and these tires too, come to think of it, is green slime.


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## Jags (May 16, 2014)

Maple, just tube it.  It is easy to do (usually don't even need tools).  Tube it and be done.

Edit: Well...ya might need a pair of side cutters to get the old valve out.


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## bag of hammers (May 16, 2014)

+1 on the tube suggestion.  I get them from the local TSC.  

Maple - I did a solid rubber wheel on a wheelbarrow (the tire was weather beaten and split so I had to toss it) - all I could find was a "skinny" version but I figured I'd give it a try.  Its fine on the hard surfaces and you wouldn't think it would make a huge difference - but it really sucks in the softer material (pushing it thru a bit of gravel, or muck, or any of the other stuff I have to deal with out there).  Tube tires "float" a bit better depending on the terrain.  I could be out to lunch, but something else to ponder.


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## Ashful (May 16, 2014)

I would NOT want to store a riding mower for the purpose of mowing 1/4 acre!  If you have other uses for it (snow plowing, snow blowing, pulling a firewood trailer), then I could see justifying the garage space, but I'd also be looking for a garden tractor... not a lawn tractor.

<-- mows 4 acres in 2 hours, with lots and lots of trees and gardens to go 'round


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## maple1 (May 16, 2014)

I think I'd rather store a riding mower than push mow 1/4 acre.


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## AK13 (May 16, 2014)

I'm actually thinking about buying an Ariens mower also. I've been push mowing a 1/2 acre rental property. It takes an hour and I'm tired of it. I'm thinking of getting this el cheapo version from HD. Or maybe the similar $999 Craftsman version. They look like the best options for under a grand. And if I'm looking at paying someone $50/mow every two weeks vs buying a rider then I'll have it paid off in only 2 summers or so. Plus I can probably write it off. Is this the one the OP was after? I assume this is maybe the Husqvarna version? 

Any sources for a good 10% off coupon to use for this thing?

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Ariens-4...27/203013179?N=5yc1vZc5c0Z12ld#specifications


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## Highbeam (May 16, 2014)

AK13 said:


> I'm actually thinking about buying an Ariens mower also. I've been push mowing a 1/2 acre rental property. It takes an hour and I'm tired of it. I'm thinking of getting this el cheapo version from HD. Or maybe the similar $999 Craftsman version. They look like the best options for under a grand. And if I'm looking at paying someone $50/mow every two weeks vs buying a rider then I'll have it paid off in only 2 summers or so. Plus I can probably write it off. Is this the one the OP was after? I assume this is maybe the Husqvarna version?
> 
> Any sources for a good 10% off coupon to use for this thing?
> 
> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Ariens-4...27/203013179?N=5yc1vZc5c0Z12ld#specifications


 
That's my mower with an ariens name tag on it. Mine is a craftsman. Honestly, I love the thing.

Be warned though, this mower has the 500cc briggs engine that is known for popping head gaskets. Same engine is in the john deere mowers at home depot. I had mine pop last fall after mowing for a few years. I replaced the gasket myself with simple hand tools for the cost of the 10 dollar gasket from amazon.com and with the guidance of excellent youtube videos.


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## BrotherBart (May 16, 2014)

One thing I would add. The Ariens is a true gear drive gear shift transmission like my Husqvarna garden tractor. I screwed up one time and bought one of the MTD produced "shift on the fly" garden tractors and it was a piece of junk. I just looked and they are still making the things as MTD, Huskee, Cub Cadet and Murry with that crappy drive system. Probably not a problem if all you are going to do is mow grass. But for anything heavy go with the gear drive.


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## velvetfoot (May 16, 2014)

I'm still gonna have to pipe in for the hydrostatic.  It's been fine so far.


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## Swedishchef (May 16, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> Here is a picture from earlier this evening:
> View attachment 133015


 
Ha! Love it! I purchased the mower today with the same trailer. 22 Hp, 46 inch cut. I negotiated $250 off of the price, 2 free pick ups and drop offs (for breaks if any happen or tune ups) and got the trailer for $125 (what a great trailer..converts to a wheel barow).

I took the 0% financing...$68/month. I will likely pay it off in 3-4 months but it is a nice option. No interest provided I pay the min payment of $68.


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## velvetfoot (May 16, 2014)

I have a tip on the trailer (mine is a Brinley).  If you put in a bunch of rounds, they can break off the plastic lip when they come tumbling out when you unload.  I'm still using mine.  It's been through a lot.  I think they have wider tires now.  I too have the handle.  

I just remembered:  a weakness with the tractor was that the seat developed a crack in the covering very soon.  I just put some black duct tape on it and didn't fuss about it.


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## Ashful (May 17, 2014)

Are these HP ratings on new tractors for real?  My old 1963 Cub 123 hydrostatic had a 12hp Kohler K301, and ran a 48" mower deck or 42" snow blower, without slowing down.  I bet it would pull one of these new 22hp lawn tractors backwards uphill, without much struggle.  Similarly, my 4wd CUT loaded with front end loader and 3pt implement tips the scales at  5000 lb., and is rated 24 or 25 hp.  It runs a 72" mower deck and a 64" snow blower.


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## begreen (May 17, 2014)

It's not just horsepower, torque is important. Is the CUT diesel? If so, that would be like comparing apples to oranges.


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## BrotherBart (May 17, 2014)

Horsepower isn't the issue with the yard/garden tractors. They have plenty. Traction is the problem given their light weight.


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## begreen (May 17, 2014)

Yes, chains can make a big difference with traction. But I hear what Joful is saying. Six years ago I replaced our 12hp B&S Craftsman with an 18hp Kohler Craftsman. I cut our fields with it and the old unit would bog down with damp grass. The newer one easily handles thick wet grass. It would be interesting to look at the torque specs for the old Cub motor and compare to a modern B&S motor.


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## velvetfoot (May 17, 2014)

I haven't looked lately, but I recall the engine on my Ariens is a 650cc V-twin.  That's motorcyle size.  My point being, that the bigger motors suck down more fuel.


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## firefighterjake (May 17, 2014)

Not to derail the thread ... but are the Kubota lawn tractors any decent or are they also just rebranded mtds?


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## Swedishchef (May 17, 2014)

No idea Jake. I presume it is like other decent brand name machines: their lower end models are likely manufactured by another company however the higher end ones aren't. However I am purely speculating.....

Andrew


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## BrotherBart (May 17, 2014)

Don't know Jake but I just checked and the list price on this one is $9,520. 







Kubota 3-cylinder DIESEL engine
Hydrostatic transmission
Mechanical 4 Wheel Drive 
Power Steering
Internal wet-clutch PTO
Hydraulic lift mower deck
Glide-Steer technology
48 or 54" mower deck
Snow blade, snow blower, & bagger options
MADE IN THE USA


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## begreen (May 17, 2014)

Wonder what the ROI is on that one?


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## begreen (May 17, 2014)

Joful said:


> Are these HP ratings on new tractors for real?  My old 1963 Cub 123 hydrostatic had a 12hp Kohler K301, and ran a 48" mower deck or 42" snow blower, without slowing down.  I bet it would pull one of these new 22hp lawn tractors backwards uphill, without much struggle.



Do you mean like this?
http://www.wimp.com/powertractor/


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## Ashful (May 17, 2014)

begreen said:


> Wonder what the ROI is on that one?


Immediate and lasting satisfaction?


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## Ashful (May 17, 2014)

begreen said:


> It's not just horsepower, torque is important. Is the CUT diesel? If so, that would be like comparing apples to oranges.


Of course, and yes, my CUT is diesel.  But, my main point... the 1963 Cub Cadet was not.  I would be willing to bet that 12 hp Cub Cadet had more real horsepower than the lawn tractors badged "22 hp" today.  After all, it ran implements of equal size, with zero trouble.  When it comes to running implements, horsepower is as important as torque, since you need to keep your mower deck or snow thrower at speed when loaded.



BrotherBart said:


> Horsepower isn't the issue with the yard/garden tractors. They have plenty. Traction is the problem given their light weight.


This is true, you almost always run out of traction before horsepower, when pulling.  However, running implements is another matter.  You're not going to run a 42" or 48" mower deck thru tall grass in spring time without the HP to keep it turning at speed.


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## BrotherBart (May 17, 2014)

The horsepower thing is a marketing deal. My 22 hp Briggs in the AYP garden tractor has at least a third more horsepower than has ever been used. And most of the time it is used to pull a pretty large trailer of big oak rounds uphill to the house. It loses traction long befor it even thinks about running out of guts. It is too light to maintain traction even with the trailer tongue loaded and real wheel weights and chains on it. It does a little better than its predecessor, that was 18 hp, just because it is heavier than that one was.

And the shaft drive on older ones helps too.


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## Ashful (May 17, 2014)

Funny timing on this.  Was just killing time sorting some old photos dumped off my phone, and came across this one:




THAT is why you need HP, my friend.


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## begreen (May 17, 2014)

Joful said:


> Immediate and lasting satisfaction?



I get that and more with the $7320 savings by getting the Craftsman.


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## Ashful (May 17, 2014)

begreen said:


> I get that and more with the $7320 savings by getting the Craftsman.


Amen, brother.  I see these sub-compact utility tractors, going for five figures, and just can't understand it.  I paid much less than the above-mentioned $9,520 for the 4wd Deere 855 in my post above.  It's old, but it has a lot of years left in it.


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## Swedishchef (May 18, 2014)

Maybe the man in the picture on the mower is a robot? Therefore for that price you simply need to fill with gas and the robot mows for you. THAT would be a great ROI?hahah.


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## begreen (May 18, 2014)

Google is probably secretly working on RoboMow."Honey, have you seen Fifi anywhere? She was outside playing a minute ago."


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## BrotherBart (May 18, 2014)

"Google Grass"


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## BrotherBart (May 18, 2014)

I want this one.


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## Highbeam (May 18, 2014)

Well since hp is simply a product of torque and an rpm and since all of these engines run at 3600, we should be able to compare hp ratings with no thought given to torque. I believe that hp ratings are fairly bogus. Also, the current big box mowers all have plenty of power.

My mower has 500cc and just under 20hp. I was cruising down the freeway on my motorcycle with just 250cc last week. 

I was thinking about this thread yesterday while mowing armpit high fescue with 30 diesel hp. I was using evrry bit of that power and slowing down as needed to keep rpm up.


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## Ashful (May 18, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> I want this one.


Keep that photo on hand for the next, "our economy is going to hell" thread, Bart.  This is proof that even the rednecks have ample spare time and coin.


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## BrotherBart (May 18, 2014)

Joful said:


> Keep that photo on hand for the next, "our economy is going to hell" thread, Bart.  This is proof that even the rednecks have ample spare time and coin.



Or access to a junkyard and no job so he has time on his hands.


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## Ashful (May 18, 2014)

Mighty expensive looking seat...


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## Jags (May 19, 2014)

Joful said:


> I would be willing to bet that 12 hp Cub Cadet had more real horsepower than the lawn tractors badged "22 hp" today.



I have the same questions on these big HP machines pulling a 42" deck.

This is 12HP and runs a 48" deck (very well):



This is 24 HP and toys with a 60" deck:



Anybody wanna chain their 22/24 HP garden tractor to it? 
(warning: I think the 4200 pounds might give me a little unfair advantage)


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## BrotherBart (May 19, 2014)

One of the goofiest things about the garden tractors is engines over 20 hp tied to the transmission with a single V belt.


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## Highbeam (May 19, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> One of the goofiest things about the garden tractors is engines over 20 hp tied to the transmission with a single V belt.


 
It's thin like a fan belt too. We have a couple things going on, some cheezy rules used to determine HP and also some misunderstanding of what HP is and whether or not it matters much for a working engine. The manufacturers have been trying to use torque instead of HP for awhile now but we consumers demand to know the HP.

So if we were to use the same rules allowing these modern 3600 rpm gas engines to get 20 hp out of 500 cc then what do you suppose the tractors would be rated at?

Oh and again with the RPM and torque, the old tractors use a low rpm engine. Their max rpm was often well below 2000. Since HP is directly related to rpm, if the tractor engine could rev higher and not loose much torque then it would get a bump in HP. This is how the modern diesel trucks went from 140 HP to 400 HP, they "just" raised the redline after adding some tricks that prevent the torque from dropping off too fast at those high revs.


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## begreen (May 19, 2014)

It's common in these small engines for the peak torque to be at many rpms less than the peak hp. Another factor could be bore vs stroke? I would guess that the compact design of a vertical vs horiz output engine might compromise stroke, but that's just a guess.


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## AK13 (May 19, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> That's my mower with an ariens name tag on it. Mine is a craftsman. Honestly, I love the thing.
> 
> Be warned though, this mower has the 500cc briggs engine that is known for popping head gaskets. Same engine is in the john deere mowers at home depot. I had mine pop last fall after mowing for a few years. I replaced the gasket myself with simple hand tools for the cost of the 10 dollar gasket from amazon.com and with the guidance of excellent youtube videos.




Thanks. I will have to check it out. The Ariens website says its a Kohler engine but HD clearly says its a Briggs. It must be a popular model to have 748 reviews. I don't quite understand the gear drive vs. hydrostatic. Does that mean that it has a clutch? I'd be just as happy with a Craftsman, but the orange is a little nicer than the grey


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## Highbeam (May 19, 2014)

begreen said:


> It's common in these small engines for the peak torque to be at many rpms less than the peak hp.


 
Same with diesels and most other engines. It makes for a cool thing called torque rise where you work the engine at peak HP (PTO 540)and then as rpm falls due to overload, the torque available actually comes up so the engine can limit the rpm drop. You really feel the rpm drop off faster as you fall below that torque peak.

My walk behind tiller has an 8 on the side of the engine which I always thought was HP but at that time Poulan was labeling the small engines with torque so it is 8 ft-lbs or newton meters or some other non-HP jibberish that I have a hard time "feeling". Turns out it is a low HP engine.


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## Highbeam (May 19, 2014)

AK13 said:


> Thanks. I will have to check it out. The Ariens website says its a Kohler engine but HD clearly says its a Briggs. It must be a popular model to have 748 reviews. I don't quite understand the gear drive vs. hydrostatic. Does that mean that it has a clutch? I'd be just as happy with a Craftsman, but the orange is a little nicer than the grey


 
The gear models have a clutch and a gear shifter lever. Selecting gears isn't an H-pattern but just a slide. There are 6 forward gears, all the way back is top speed and all the way forward is reverse with a neutral in the middle. The clutch is also the brake pedal just like a bulldozer. You push it down a little for clutch and all the way down to hit the brake. Your right foot does nothing.

You can choose by color and price, the machine is the same. In fact, I use husky blades from HD instead of buying them from sears.


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## AK13 (May 19, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> The gear models have a clutch and a gear shifter lever. Selecting gears isn't an H-pattern but just a slide. There are 6 forward gears, all the way back is top speed and all the way forward is reverse with a neutral in the middle. The clutch is also the brake pedal just like a bulldozer. You push it down a little for clutch and all the way down to hit the brake. Your right foot does nothing.



Interesting. I guess I'd better take it for a test drive before setting my sites on it. I like the low cost and better reliability. But the only riding mowers that I've used have all been hydrostatic.


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## Highbeam (May 19, 2014)

AK13 said:


> Interesting. I guess I'd better take it for a test drive before setting my sites on it. I like the low cost and better reliability. But the only riding mowers that I've used have all been hydrostatic.


 
As a tractor guy I have had to make a much tougher decision regarding hst or gear transmissions. On tractors the HST is every bit as robust as a gear drive and the HST is extremely useful for precision work like aligning with rear attached equipment. On mowers the HST is boring as heck and I don't see the benefit of HST on a mower with such high HP. Infinite speed adjustment, okay, but there are 6 gears and I have no problem finding one to match the conditions.

If you've driven a stickshift car you know that operating a stick shift becomes second nature after a short time and fairly effortless. On the mower, the revs are set so you just slip the clutch to take off. It's pretty easy. I've had HST trannies fail on my last JD riding mower. They puke fluid, get hot, slip, lose power, etc. but most importantly they aren't worth fixing so you trash the machine. The clutch on a mower is just the belt, when you slip the clutch you are just slipping the loose belt on the pulleys. Really nothing to wear out. I've never heard of a trans failure, you always hear about HST failures.

Oh and mechanical blade engagement is much cheaper than replacing the electronic blade clutch needed with push button blade engagement. 150$ when that fails. 15% of the purchase price!


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## Ashful (May 19, 2014)

AK13 said:


> Thanks. I will have to check it out. The Ariens website says its a Kohler engine but HD clearly says its a Briggs. It must be a popular model to have 748 reviews. I don't quite understand the gear drive vs. hydrostatic. Does that mean that it has a clutch? I'd be just as happy with a Craftsman, but the orange is a little nicer than the grey


All my cars are manual trans, but all my tractors are hydro.  If you're primarily using this machine to pull a spreader, where you need to calibrate spread rate to a fixed ground speed, then gear drive is for you.  For practically all other lawn / garden / utility tractor purposes, hydrostatic is vastly superior.  I could not even imagine moving snow or mowing with a gear drive, anymore.

Unlike Highbeam, I've never experienced a hydro failure, but I don't buy junk equipment from Lowes Depot, either.  My Cub Cadet was 51 years old when I sold it, had probably 2000 hours on it, and still going strong with the original hydro trans.  I replaced the control linkage (was getting sloppy), and the original cork hydro-axle seal (was starting to drip), but all else was 100% original.  Same with my 1986 Deere, at 900+ hours.


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## Ashful (May 19, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> We have a couple things going on, some cheezy rules used to determine HP and also some misunderstanding of what HP is and whether or not it matters much for a working engine. The manufacturers have been trying to use torque instead of HP for awhile now but we consumers demand to know the HP.


HP is still a valid figure of merit.  Torque matters when you need something to turn, and don't care about the speed, such as pulling a heavy load up a hill.  HP matters when you need to maintain speed against load, such as turning a mower or snow thrower.


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## Highbeam (May 19, 2014)

Joful said:


> HP is still a valid figure of merit.  Torque matters when you need something to turn, and don't care about the speed, such as pulling a heavy load up a hill.  HP matters when you need to maintain speed against load, such as turning a mower or snow thrower.


 
See, this is the confusing part, I want to pull a heavy load up a hill and maintain my speed. So which is important? HP or torque? I prefer the analogy of HP is what accelerates you and torque is what maintains speed. Good engines (gas or diesel) have plenty of both and have gobs of it throughout the rpm range. For whatever reason, most modern engines have become peaky in their power delivery.

The topic of this thread is new low end mowers. Low end HST units come with them so we can't compare old stuff or even the well built stuff from tractors. My failed HST was an old john deere mower from a real JD dealer. Really soured me to the concept of mowing with a cheap hst tranny. If I was buying a small Kubota diesel tractor to mow with, say a B3030, then I would not shy away from a HST.


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## Jags (May 19, 2014)

Torque turns things.
HP determines the rate at which the work is done.


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## Ashful (May 19, 2014)

Jags said:


> Torque turns things.
> HP determines the rate at which the work is done.


Exactly... and to speak to highbeam's point, I would suspect some motor manufacturers have a very narrowly peaked torque or HP band, to maximize the number they publish.  Torque developed at a low RPM that is below your range of interest is not much use.  HP at any RPM is simply the ability to supply a given torque at that RPM, or conversely, the ability to maintain that RPM under a given load.

If you want to pull a heavy cart uphill without losing speed, then your figure of merit is HP, combined with the gearing to put you at the right RPM.  Force x displacement / time = power.  Physics 101.


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## Retired Guy (May 19, 2014)

With the class action suit against small engine manufacturers it seems as though they weren't concerned about honestly reporting mower HP or torque. I suspect that's why they market engines by cc now.


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## Bret Chase (Jun 9, 2014)

AK13 said:


> I'm a Simplicity guy myself. I think they have the best decks. I used to get a terrible mow with my Craftsman (MTD) because my yard is uneven the deck was always hanging off to the side.
> 
> I also LOVE the quick release deck. I wouldn't own a mower without it again. I can drop my deck in about 2 minutes and wheel it away which makes the machine able to go out in the woods to haul wood!
> 
> ...



I have a 15 year old scotts 2046 (that I got for $200 and put 50 bucks into)... dropping the deck takes less than a minute... 5 cotter pins and pop off the belt.  it's a lever hydro... I H*AT*E pedal drive.  I use it for mowing and towing my little (2X3) trailer around doing lawn crap.  in the woods, I fire up my 1944 Farmall A.... 70 years old and runs like a top :D



velvetfoot said:


> I haven't looked lately, but I recall the engine on my Ariens is a 650cc V-twin.  That's motorcyle size.  My point being, that the bigger motors suck down more fuel.



my 20hp vtwin displaces 656cc.... my bike displaces 599cc.... and makes 117hp...


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## Ashful (Jun 9, 2014)

Bret Chase said:


> it's a lever hydro... I H*AT*E pedal drive.


I've owned both, and each has its pros and cons, but I'll tell you it takes quite a bit of mental training to learn to back up a trailer with lever hydro, after years of controlling your vehicle speed with pedals.  Personally, I find the only real solid advantage of the lever hydro (given most pedal hydro's have a "cruise control" pedal latch) is the ability to control the tractor while you walk next to it, for tasks like collecting yard debris in a trailer.  I used to do that quite often with my little Cub Cadet, but it would be not very safe with a larger machine.


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## velvetfoot (Jun 9, 2014)

Mine has a switch that shuts it down when you leave the seat.


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## Ashful (Jun 9, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> Mine has a switch that shuts it down when you leave the seat.


That's not a real tractor.


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## maple1 (Jun 10, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> Mine has a switch that shuts it down when you leave the seat.


 
That is most aggravating sometimes. I would like to disable my JD from doing that, but I think the shut down circuits are also tied to other stuff (parking brake, blade clutch, reverse mowing switch) so figured it wouldn't be as simple as unplugging & shorting something. I should have a closer look next time I have it out...


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## Bret Chase (Jun 10, 2014)

maple1 said:


> That is most aggravating sometimes. I would like to disable my JD from doing that, but I think the shut down circuits are also tied to other stuff (parking brake, blade clutch, reverse mowing switch) so figured it wouldn't be as simple as unplugging & shorting something. I should have a closer look next time I have it out...



I defeated the RIO (Reverse Implement Option) switch on mine.  I found it unbelievably irritating, as I do not have enough hands to hit the stupid button, pull the lever to reverse and steer at the same time. all it took was to pop the switch out of the dash and jumper the connector.  I can live with all the other cutouts, but I would prefer the seat switch only be active when the mower deck was running.


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## maple1 (Jun 10, 2014)

Bret Chase said:


> I defeated the RIO (Reverse Implement Option) switch on mine.  I found it unbelievably irritating, as I do not have enough hands to hit the stupid button, pull the lever to reverse and steer at the same time. all it took was to pop the switch out of the dash and jumper the connector.  I can live with all the other cutouts, but I would prefer the seat switch only be active when the mower deck was running.


 
Ya, that one is a pain sometimes too. Not so much with the pedal reverse though - so I haven't really thought about it.

Haven't thought about much of it seriously I guess, just been putting up with it & thinking once in a while 'I wonder if I can do something about that?'

My kids are doing more mowing every year, so I'd want to be careful on what I'd tamper with, especially since we've got some hills. I would like to deactivate the seat switch, but I still want the thing to quit if the seat gets unloaded when the blades are turning - so not sure that's possible.


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## Jags (Jun 10, 2014)

The seat switch would have to be taken out of the current circuit BUT added to the mower deck circuit.  Not really an easy option.  It could be done if you wanted to get the wiring diagram, but with kids learning the machine I would caution taking out ANY of the safety features.  As an adult, they drive me nuts, but with kids it is a whole nuther ball game.


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## AK13 (Jun 10, 2014)

Bret Chase said:


> I defeated the RIO (Reverse Implement Option) switch on mine.  I found it unbelievably irritating, as I do not have enough hands to hit the stupid button, pull the lever to reverse and steer at the same time.



Ha ha. Another win for pedal drive and the Simplicity. Mine has a simple ONE TIME switch that I turn when I engage the PTO that permanently disables the reverse nonsense. It stays disabled until you shut off the PTO and turn it back on. Great system. 

And the Simplicity has a lever drive also so you don't have to use pedals. But they are so much easier.....kind of like driving a....car? I think the main reason that I like pedals is that my yard has so many obstacles that I am constantly having to slow down. If I was mowing wide open acres I'd probably feel differently and just want to hit max speed and forget it.


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## maple1 (Jun 10, 2014)

AK13 said:


> Ha ha. Another win for pedal drive and the Simplicity. Mine has a simple ONE TIME switch that I turn when I engage the PTO that permanently disables the reverse nonsense. It stays disabled until you shut off the PTO and turn it back on. Great system.


 
The JD one works like that too. Just have to either hold the button in while you press the reverse pedal then let it up after you're in reverse, or punch it just after you hit reverse (but then the motor momentarily dies until you punch it). The PTO (blades) will keep running as long as you're still going backwards without holding the button in - but as soon as you go out of reverse, you need to hit the button again to go back into reverse. It kind of comes naturally after a few hours use - but I still forget once in a while.

And agree on the kids - which is why I just live with it all.


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## velvetfoot (Jun 10, 2014)

On the Ariens, you just have to turn the ignition key one position to the left to enable backing with the mower running.


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## Ashful (Jun 10, 2014)

Wow, some of these new safety switches sound impossibly intrusive, but for the sake of liability, I'm not sure I'd go messing with them.  Mine are much simpler / more practical:

JD ZTrak 757 (commercial grade mower, 2009 vintage):  Seat switch shuts off tractor if you get off the seat without setting the parking brake.  I can't imagine why you'd want to get off the seat without setting the brake, on that machine.

JD 855 MFWD (compact utility tractor, 1986 vintage):  Seat switch shuts off both PTO's, nothing else.  I can walk next to the tractor while it's driving on cruise control, if I want.  In fact, if I tip the seat forward against the steering wheel, there's an option to disable the seat switch while running the rear PTO.  This enables you to power a backhoe or log splitter off the PTO, when you're not sitting on the tractor.  Front PTO, which is used primarily for mower deck and snow thrower, cannot be over-ridden at seat switch.

Not sure if these over-intrusive seat and other safety switches are an issue with just homeowner grade equipment, or if the commercial guys have to deal with the same, nowadays.  Would be interesting to know, though.


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## Highbeam (Jun 10, 2014)

If it has a seat switch, it's not a tractor. I had a bee hive fall in my lap while mowing a field one day and had to bail out and run for my life. The tractor is a hydro so it stopped moving but the mower deck was still spinning and engine screaming at PTO speed for at least an hour before I had the nerve to creep up near the tractor and use my hand on the treddle to move the tractor forward away from the hive.

When standing between tractor tires and moving the tractor it seems awfully easy to get run over.

The craftsman riding mower has a key position that allows full access to reverse while mowing. That's a fine system.


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## Ashful (Jun 10, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> The craftsman riding mower has a key position that allows full access to reverse while mowing. That's a fine system.


Kinda weird, tho... isn't it?  I mean, I can't think of many situations where I could mow a yard without wanting to reverse at some point.


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## Highbeam (Jun 10, 2014)

Joful said:


> Kinda weird, tho... isn't it?  I mean, I can't think of many situations where I could mow a yard without wanting to reverse at some point.


 
Yes, the first thing I do when I mow is disengage that feature using the supplied bypass. Within the first 30 feet of mowing I am using reverse with the blades engaged.


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## velvetfoot (Jun 10, 2014)

You have to consciously deactivate, so it's your fault if anything goes wrong.


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## Bret Chase (Jun 10, 2014)

Joful said:


> JD 855 MFWD (compact utility tractor, 1986 vintage):  Seat switch shuts off both PTO's, nothing else.  I can walk next to the tractor while it's driving on cruise control, if I want.  In fact, if I tip the seat forward against the steering wheel, there's an option to disable the seat switch while running the rear PTO.  This enables you to power a backhoe or log splitter off the PTO, when you're not sitting on the tractor.  Front PTO, which is used primarily for mower deck and snow thrower, cannot be over-ridden at seat switch.
> 
> Not sure if these over-intrusive seat and other safety switches are an issue with just homeowner grade equipment, or if the commercial guys have to deal with the same, nowadays.  Would be interesting to know, though.



a seat switch on a compact utility.... interesting... on my old '89 JD1050 (sold) there was no seat switch of any kind.  on my '44 Farmall.... safety... lol.  hit the starter in gear with you in front of the tire.... it'll run you over and keep going until it hits something and stalls.... or runs out of fuel.


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## Ashful (Jun 10, 2014)

Bret Chase said:


> a seat switch on a compact utility.... interesting... on my old '89 JD1050 (sold) there was no seat switch of any kind.  on my '44 Farmall.... safety... lol.  hit the starter in gear with you in front of the tire.... it'll run you over and keep going until it hits something and stalls.... or runs out of fuel.


I believe the age of your tractor design is to blame for that.  The 1050 came out in 1979, had a manually-controlled PTO, and was discontinued in 1989.  It was replaced with the 955 in 1990, which has the typical modern electric solenoid controlled PTO, like my 855 (and every other compact utility tractor made by Deere in the last 25 years).  Some safety switches are just plain annoying, but this one has never caused me a second thought, as it's only for killing the PTO if I fly out of the seat while mowing or snow blowing.

I'm actually surprised your old Yanmar 3-cyl turbo diesel is holding up after all these years!  What year is your 1050?  Is the turbo still original and functional?


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## Bret Chase (Jun 10, 2014)

Joful said:


> I'm actually surprised your old Yanmar 3-cyl turbo diesel is holding up after all these years!  What year is your 1050?  Is the turbo still original and functional?



 the 1050 was an 89... I have no idea if the turbo was original... and it worked just fine when I sold it earlier this year.  I kept the Farmall because it was my grandfather's.... and I like that old tractor.  It's got less hp than my mower, but it weighs more, lol.


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