# Baseboard suitable for heat distribution?



## maineDIY (Feb 4, 2012)

First time post, long time reader. Appreciate the fine info given here. Question for the gurus: is baseboard hydronic heat really a reasonable match for a gasification boiler? I ask because it seemed to be a pretty elegant solution to keep the oil delivery truck away to just hook up one of these jewels to my existing distribution system which is oil fired hot water baseboard. The problem that I see now that I've gone thru the time and expense of installing the boiler (60 kw Vigas with 1000 gal propane tank storage 50' from house) is that the baseboard system requires 180deg water at minimum. This is very near the top of the design limitation of the boiler /storage system ---which to me isn't a very good design. A lot of the heat generated by a burn and stored in the tank is not useable. One then is constantly just topping off the storage tank temperature wise, rather than having infrequent big burns. Furthermore, no matter how well one insulates, the losses are bound to be greater with higher storage to ambient gradients. I understand that radiant operates at lower temps. Does that need to be the next big project---to install radiant? I'm hearing ca-Ching.

One last question. I read on the "fine tuning the Eko" long sticky thread, something to the effect of turning down the fan, to produce a slower, cooler burn so that the heat doesn't just go up the flu. Is that statement evidenced based and is that opinion generally shared here or just someone's theory?

Thanks in advance.

Gregory


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## bigburner (Feb 4, 2012)

is the house warm a lower water temp, say 140F. My guess it will be, until the coldest days and those days you will be chucking wood in the thing anyway. If it doesn't you are way under sized for base board. In the old days we ran it on every inch of outside wall possible, then ran like 160 F water. Now well it's all in floor ,underfloor and HW/AC air handlers.


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## maineDIY (Feb 4, 2012)

Well you make a good point/observation---there really needs to be more baseboard, but at 140 the house won't stay warm.


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## hiker88 (Feb 4, 2012)

Hi,

I'm in the same situation as you.  I'm baseboard only and considering converting to a gassifier.

It's really about the math.  I don't know the formulas yet, but I'm working on understanding it.  If you know your heat load (math mumbo jumbo), how many feet of baseboard you have (more math) and then know the btu output your baseboard is rated at per inlet water temperature you will know how you stand.

That being said, I have done a lot of anecdotal testing over this winter with my oil burner and my baseboard.  I have found that my house easily maintains 60 degrees with the aquastat set at 130 low set point, 150 high set point with a 10 degree anticipator set point.  I've done this on our coldest days and nights this year to simulate a low heat situation (either night or when we are away at work to simulate the system running off storage).  Of course I can easily get the heat of the house well up over 70 degrees if I change the aquastat to 180 low 200 high to simulate a boiler running flat out with high heat load.

I would still like to add some panel radiators selectively throughout the house.  I grew up with them in Germany as a kid and they were great to hang your towels over while you were in the shower.  Nothing like heated towels to dry off with   Oh yea, they'll stretch your storage capabilities out too.


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## maineDIY (Feb 4, 2012)

Well I'm OK with math, but my point is that the baseboard really requires 180 deg inlet temp to put out its rated output. To me, not a good match for a system that can barely make that temp. I really didn't consider that fact when I sprung for the gasser.
GG


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## Dune (Feb 4, 2012)

mainedyi said:
			
		

> Well I'm OK with math, but my point is that the baseboard really requires 180 deg inlet temp to put out its rated output. To me, not a good match for a system that can barely make that temp. I really didn't consider that fact when I sprung for the gasser.
> GG



You need to install more baseboard. Also, how is your insulation, windows, doors, weatherstripping etc.?
Other than than that, yes radiant floor heat would give you much more storage.


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## flyingcow (Feb 4, 2012)

More baseboard. i have basically the same set up. But i have my kitchen done with staple up Radiant. A nice add on. eventually will do all first floors with staple up. I need close to 140 in the dead of winter to maintain the staple up.


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## Duetech (Feb 4, 2012)

At least some of the baseboard mfg supply general info for needed linear ft of baseboard/sq ft of heat space and port sizing reference charts. Those I recall looking into used 170* as a recomended referrence. One store that uses the "save big money at" has similar baseboard you can link to on the net and see their sizing chart. One definite consideration is the size of piping and inlet at the baseboard and the size of tube that it uses. Higher heat is needed for smaller diameter piping. Also finned or not could be an issue. I am looking at baseboard myself and it seems that here 160* seems to be the better part of the low end for baseboard with no recomendations for anything below 150*. My "hunt results" are not conclusive but are just gleanings for my curious mind (dubious interpretations excepted for those who like to snicker....snicker, ...snicker). Since you have sprung for the gasser it might do to find what kinds of temperature drop you are experiencing from your baseboard inlet and outlet. Your new boiler should be able to withstand a 140* return and still supply a 170-180* source. If you have a substantial drop in temps It might suggest too low of flow to be effective at lower than 180* temps. With my current air/water hx I need 140* and above to effectively heat the home. Things don't really get good until it gets into the 150* + range. Baseboard is my "potential" summer time project.


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## in hot water (Feb 4, 2012)

To get more output you need more temperature or a baseboard with higher output (more and/ or larger fins). 

 Increasing the flow rate will make a small change in output as the average temperature across the board increases, but too fast of flow causes noise and possible erosion corrosion.  Usually BB output is rated at 1 and 4 gpm flow.

But a few things to check with your current baseboard. 

 The baseboard needs to be able to have a good air flow, top to bottom.  Make sure carpet has not blocked some or all of bottom opening.  Curtains above or over the BB will change the output, as will furniture pushed tight to the baseboard. Dampers need to be wide open if you have the adjustable type.  Custom made enclosures often hamper the airflow.

I have seen BB installed with the fins facing front to back  Make sure the fins are open top to bottom.

Sometimes a good brushing and vacuum job will increase performance.  Even a small layer of dust or pet hair reduces output.

Certainly anything you can do to lower the heatloss will help, close the drapes, seal any air leaks around the doors and windows, etc.

hr


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## ewdudley (Feb 4, 2012)

Of course to maximize storage capacity you need to minimize return temperature.  I've found one way of doing this that has worked out pretty well.

We put in a 30 gallon buffer tank/hydraulic separator that the zones pull from, and then there's a transfer pump that pumps from storage to the buffer tank according to the temperature near the bottom of the buffer tank.  A key component is a Wilo Stratus (or Grundfos Alpha, if you prefer) constant pressure pump for the loads, which is set fairly low to flow slowly almost constantly.

The temperature sensor in buffer tank is up about a foot from the bottom, and it's controlled by a simple Ranco aquastat.  The aquastat is set by trial and error to find some setting high enough to keep the house good and warm.  You can also adjust the return temperature setting seasonally.  This is just a poor-man's outdoor reset, you could get a Tekmar control that would optimize everything very nicely.  Even with a lot of baseboard we can usually do nicely with the return-to-storage temperature set to 120 degF and a supply temperature of 175 degF, although if it gets extraordinarily cold and windy I run supply temperature up over 180 degF.

This way all the water pulled from storage only ever makes one trip per storage cycle, and doesn't return to storage until it has been depleted for all its worth in our particular system.  Another benefit is that zones that cycle intermittently and/or have high temperature deltas will separate colder water to the bottom of the buffer tank, and undersized zones that run nearly constantly with low temperature deltas will see their return water separate up higher into the tank.  The end result is lower composite return temperature to storage and  175 degF water more of the time to the zones that need it.

We now have a couple low temperature radiant zones, which pull water from the bottom of the buffer tank and then through a mixer.  The check valving is such that the radiant zones return directly to storage, which means they force their net unmixed flow to supply to top of the buffer tank, where the high temperature zones get first dibs.


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## lukem (Feb 4, 2012)

Good post.  I'm considering a wood fired boiler of some sort in the next couple years and have often wondered the same thing.  My vintage 60's propane furnace is rated at 200k btu, yes 200, and feeds some old cast iron radiators in the basement and baseboard on the main level.  

Since the furnance was installed the house has received insulation upgrades, new windows and doors, and is genarally tighter overall.  I haven't run the furnace in a couple years, but if memory serves correctly it would run in a short cycle with a lot of time in between firing.  The system tempt measured at the furnace rarely got to 180 and almost never to 200.  I think I've probably got more baseboard than I need now that the heating demand is less, so I think I can get by with lower temps.  I think.

Sound reasonable?


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## flyingcow (Feb 4, 2012)

More baseboard means lower temps to heat house. Plus those cast iron radiators are a plus.

 Thats basically how radiant floors work. You've got a lot of square footage of heat in a radiant floor. Plus the radiant floor keeps the wife's feet warmer. This is a big plus!


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## ALASKAPF185 (Feb 4, 2012)

Quick answer is yes, baseboard can work just fine with WB's. When using outdoor reset and programed heat curve, your baseboard will rarely see 180* water, only on the coldest days. Now there are 2 types of base board, actually 3. Cast iron ( requires the hotest temps) most common single pipe slant fin, and finally the 2 pipe design specifically for lower temp applications - condensing boiler and temps below 140 and still outputting more btu's than the single pipe slant fin at 180. Even when our boilers are set for 180 temp the base board rarely sees anything above 170. 160 is the code temp limit on the radiation fixture itself. This is where having a true design professional can make use of your equipment properly. With mixing valves, ODR controls and proper size pumps you can make the simplest of systems very comfortable and efficient.


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## maple1 (Feb 4, 2012)

I've got standard slant fin on my oil/wood combo smoker. It works fine - you certainly get more heat out of them when the temps are higher (180-200) but they seem to maintain OK down to 160, or even to 150. I am sure it would do just as well with a gasser & storage. But having said that, I am thinking maybe I should start to check out radiation that would work better with lower temps. It was unheard of when I did my house 15 years ago. Not sure it would be worth replacing all my slant fin though - was thinking more along the lines of just adding it to what's there. Are the new 'lower temp' panel rads still capable of using the hotter 180-200 temps? Or would they require mixing to lower temps as in-floor does?


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## woodsmaster (Feb 4, 2012)

You might want to consider upgrading to rad panels or some staple up radiant. The panels are usually fairly easy to install
depending on the house. I have rad panels and really like them. You can zone each room by its self and having a warm towel
after a shower is really nice.


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## maineDIY (Feb 4, 2012)

Thanks for all the great comments and advice. I have the slant fin BB and they put out some heat down  to 140 but you can pretty much count on your tank to be exhausted by then for heating purposes. You'd better be close by to stoke the stove at that point or the house begins to chill. I'm attracted to radiant in that it is said to only need 130-140 to begin with. I'm theorizing that with the use of mixing valves I could utilize the heat much better as the storage tanks go from 190 down to 140 or even as low as 130 or less. ie. much longer time between burns with overall less wood use? Is my theory right? Also nobody commented on whether very hot, rapid burns are just sending heat up the chimney. Should the fan on a gasser be turned down from 100% if possible provided the air/fuel mixture is kept optimal?


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## timberr (Feb 5, 2012)

Hi Maine,

I had the same problem, the little secret the person who sold me the boiler never discussed. The fall of 2011 I upgraded my baseboard to SlantFin 15 basebaord, I did it foot for foot and what a difference! http://www.slantfin.com/index.php/products/baseboard-residential/fine--line-15. I have a Tekmar 260 boiler reset control, I have it set for a Max low of 140 and my storage last's all day even when temps are below zero.

As for Fan setting I run my Eko at 50%.

Good luck


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## chuck172 (Feb 5, 2012)

Do you have the tekmar controlling a mixing valve Timberr?


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## timberr (Feb 5, 2012)

No the Tekmar controls the Circ pump on storage, when the target temp is reached the circ is turned off and the circ on the primary loop continues to circulate, when the water running through the loop goes below the Diff setting the circ pumps starts up until the target is reach. This continues until the demand for heat is reached.


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## chuck172 (Feb 5, 2012)

I'm confused timberr, but interested. Your boiler is heating your storage.   You must have a circulator off the storage to your heating zones. How do you lower and maintain the storage temperature (180*) to 140* to the heating units?


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## timberr (Feb 5, 2012)

You are correct, boiler heats storage. There is a circ on the boiler to move water to & from storage. There is a circ on storage to move water to Primary loop. There is a circ on the peimary loop to run water to the zones. So if the outside temp is 30* and there is a call for heat, the target temp (minimum temps set on Tekmar) watre is pumped to the primary loop, there is a temp sensor on the primary loop, when it reaches 140* the Tekmar turns the circ off and the primary circ circulates water through the zones when the water cools to 138 (2* diff) the circ pump turns one until it hits 142 then it turns off. Like I said this continues until the demand for heat is satisfied. Typically the Circ pump at 30* will run for less then 1 min. then turn off for 2-3 mins. When the temps get colder the Target temp increases.


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## maineDIY (Feb 5, 2012)

chuck172 said:
			
		

> Do you have the tekmar controlling a mixing valve Timberr?


No, I've got a "fluid power energy" 3 way thermostatic valve.


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## maineDIY (Feb 5, 2012)

timberr said:
			
		

> Hi Maine,
> 
> I had the same problem, the little secret the person who sold me the boiler never discussed. The fall of 2011 I upgraded my baseboard to SlantFin 15 basebaord, I did it foot for foot and what a difference! http://www.slantfin.com/index.php/products/baseboard-residential/fine--line-15. I have a Tekmar 260 boiler reset control, I have it set for a Max low of 140 and my storage last's all day even when temps are below zero.
> 
> ...



Not sure how the "15" was an upgrade. From what model or brand did you upgrade from? From the slant fin web page it would appear that the 15 might be a downgrade for me. I'm quite sure that I have the 30 now. I'm wondering whether one of the commercial Slant fins might work better. Thanks for your post. Curious how you arrived at 50% for the fan?
GG


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## timberr (Feb 5, 2012)

I went a checked (I have a unit still in a box) iw was 30 that I used. As for the Fan, first season wood was a little wet (MC 20 - 25%) I had to use 60-70% fan but I was getting "The Smell". Since I am burning wood in the 10% MC and running 50%, burns great, no smell. My theory was with the higher fin speed creating more pressure causing smoke to escape. I may be blowing smoke....


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## chuck172 (Feb 5, 2012)

Timberr, Is that what's called an injection pump system?


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## Rory (Feb 6, 2012)

I have standard baseboard in my house that was designed for my oil furnace, so I assume it expects 180 degree water.  Since installing my Tarm 4 years ago, my water is rarely 180 degrees, but we're never cold and we hardly burn any oil.  I suspect we are in "circulation mode" more than we were with the oil, but it maintains temperature quite well, and the electric bill doesn't seem to indicate that the circ pumps cost much to operate.   It does take longer to raise the temp a few degrees, and it's hard to get much above 70 when it's extremely cold out.  Thankfully, we're ok with it around 70 most of the time.


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## timberr (Feb 6, 2012)

Maine,

Not sure about injection, my understanding is it is a standard Primary/Secondary setup. I still was wrong on the Baseborad, it is Multipak 80, looked at the order paperwork. http://www.slantfin.com/index.php/products/baseboard-residential/multi--pak-80

Too many beer's, Go Pats!


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## b33p3r (Feb 7, 2012)

Used oil boiler hydronic baseboard for 11 years before installing econoburn. The only change I noticed is the house is warmer because we set the thermostat 2-3 degrees higher now that we aren't burning oil. 
   The contractor that built my house has also told me that since a couple years ago they are recommending circulating 150 deg water through baseboard as opposed to 180. Supposed to save 10% or so on oil consumtion that way. I guess less cycles at boiler. They have installed a mixing setup on a few oil boilers to accomplish this.


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## chuck172 (Feb 7, 2012)

I added more fintube to allow lower temperatures. I just couldn't figure out the easiest way to lower the temps to the emitters. When Timberr was talking about his system, it all made sense to me. Injection system. Like Timberr I only have 500 gallons of storage and I need to stretch it. Circulating 150* heat vs. 190* might do it. I'll give it a try.


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## henfruit (Feb 7, 2012)

I have one room on the end of the house that is a bear to keep warm on the coldest days.The circ never seems to shut off.It is suspended radiant with 10 feet of base board tied into the the same loop.(was like that when i bought the house) My problem is not enough btu out put for the size of the room.It is not large but does have 7 + floor to ceiling windows and a cathedral ceiling about 15 feet..I was thinking to take the base board and make it a seperate zone (higher water temps) and add an other strip of base board 7 feet long. I have looked at some of the clip on plates to help disperse the heat better,hoping that that would help also.


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## b33p3r (Feb 7, 2012)

I won't claim to be able to design what you need to heat a room. I will say what was designed for my oil boiler to heat is easily handled by my wood boiler. I have radiant tube run in my main floor joists using ultra fins but haven't insulated it yet or tied the pump in. Hopefully have it running by 2012-2013 winter. But I won't eliminate my baseboard until radiant is tested in the worst of temps!


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## henfruit (Feb 7, 2012)

The boilers be it oil or wood not the problem.Not enough btus for that room as it is set up, and way to much glass. i would guess i need 10 to 15 thousand btus per hour at coldest design temp.


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## maineDIY (Feb 7, 2012)

"Of course to maximize storage capacity you need to minimize return temperature."

You say that like that is a proven and well known fact. Is it? It would seem that a very cool return would just deplete your storage tank more quickly. There has to be heat transfer between the upper hot water and the relatively cooler lower levels, thus depleting the tank perhaps more quickly than with a warmer lower level tank temp. Your description of a "solution" sounds a little bit like a complicated Rube Goldberg defice. I don't really see how it makes the storage btu's more usable or the storage tank last longer. I've donned the asbestos suit---go for it.
Gregory


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## DaBackBurner (Feb 7, 2012)

Here's one link that describes why it is important to maintain stratification within a storage resevoir for either heating or cooling applications.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030626190900141X


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## maineDIY (Feb 7, 2012)

[quote author="DaBackBurner" date="1328660278"]Here's one link that describes why it is important to maintain stratification within a storage resevoir for either heating or cooling applications.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030626190900141X[/quo

I admit that it has been a long time since I studied thermodynamics so I don't think I'll spring the $41 for the full text as I likely wouldn't understand it anyways---but as best I can tell by the abstract, this article shows that causing stratification gives better storage as opposed to mixing, and explores some ways to maximize that, not that returning colder temp water will improve storage. Yes? No?
GG


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## DaBackBurner (Feb 7, 2012)

I believe...and it has been some time since I studied thermodynamics...seems like eons, but you want to be able to return the coldest water possible, while delivering the needed temperature water to satisfy your areas btu loss, because colder water will want to stay on the bottom as opposed to mixing with the hotter water up top and thus lowering that hotter water temperature quicker. This cannot always be accomplished depending on one's heat emitters though. I think it was Eliot describing a buffer tank solution that has me intrigued to utilize lower temp water for different type heat emitters, such as slab radiant or similar, AFTER say running through higher temp heat emitters like fin-tube or similar. If one can utilize that water BEFORE sending it to storage the storage resevoir will maintain better stratification hence it will allow the heat emitter distribution network to use storage for a longer period of time because the hotter water will stay hotter longer (up top) as it is not being mixed with say medium hot water (middle or so). Thus with the colder return water you develop better thermal layering.
At least that's my WAY-less-than-expert understanding.


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## ewdudley (Feb 7, 2012)

DaBackBurner said:
			
		

> colder water will want to stay on the bottom as opposed to mixing with the hotter water up top and thus lowering that hotter water temperature quicker. This cannot always be accomplished depending on one's heat emitters though. ... buffer tank solution that has me intrigued to utilize lower temp water for different type heat emitters, such as slab radiant or similar, AFTER say running through higher temp heat emitters like fin-tube or similar. If one can utilize that water BEFORE sending it to storage the storage resevoir will maintain better stratification hence it will allow the heat emitter distribution network to use storage for a longer period of time because the hotter water will stay hotter longer (up top) as it is not being mixed with say medium hot water (middle or so). Thus with the colder return water you develop better thermal layering.



Yes, the idea is to avoid sending any water back to storage until it is as cold as you can get it.  With multiple zones with variable emitter effectiveness some zones will return cooler water than others, and the buffer/hydraulic separator tank can sort the coolest water to the bottom of the tank while the hotter returns can rise up and be cycled through again.

The lower aquastat controls pumping water back to storage when it is cool enough, its setpoint is determined by trial and error. Too low and the house won't stay warm enough.  Tekmar builds controls that can figure it out for you.

The upper aquastat keeps the upper portion of the tank hot enough for DHW and the hot tub.

The PEX zones pull from the bottom of the buffer tank and return directly to storage.  This means when the PEX zones are calling there is a net flow from storage to the top of the buffer tank, where the high temperature loads can get a shot at it first.


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## DaBackBurner (Feb 7, 2012)

Thank you for posting the picture Eliot. Now to start scrounging for a buffer tank. I'm equally excited because a friend is going to give me some lessons on welding, a skill I always aspired to have.


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## maineDIY (Feb 8, 2012)

Well I'm not sure I'm buying this cooler return theory. I do understand that heat rises and that thermal gradients will occur in the storage tank. However it would seem that the greater the temp gradient between the top hot thermal layer and the bottom cooler one, the faster the heat transfer between the two layers,  seeming to me to offset the benefits of keeping the hottest water on top. Why not run one's return line above ground in the snow to get even a greater gradient? Not trying to be argumentive, just trying to understand.
GG


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## ewdudley (Feb 8, 2012)

mainedyi said:
			
		

> Well I'm not sure I'm buying this cooler return theory. I do understand that heat rises and that thermal gradients will occur in the storage tank. However it would seem that the greater the temp gradient between the top hot thermal layer and the bottom cooler one, the faster the heat transfer between the two layers,  seeming to me to offset the benefits of keeping the hottest water on top.


Water stratifies rather well and without some external disturbance it will remain stratified for as long as you please.  Consider meromictic lakes that have remained stratified for thousands of years:

http://www.waterontheweb.org/under/lakeecology/05_stratification.html

That stratification is desirable is obvious considering the exponential decline in radiator effectiveness as a function of decreasing temperature difference according to Newton's law of cooling.


> Why not run one's return line above ground in the snow to get even a greater gradient?



Of course the underlying goal is to extract heat into the conditioned space, not reject it to the great outdoors.  This is pretty much proven fact, not just some theory.

Success in extracting heat from water into the conditioned space is measurable exactly according to the difference in the temperature of the water from when it enters the conditioned space to when it leaves the conditioned space.

The greater the success in extracting heat, the cooler the water returning to storage.  The cooler you can get storage before the next heating cycle, the greater the heat capacity of the storage, and therefore the greater the usefulness of the storage as storage.



> Not trying to be argumentive, just trying to understand.



That's good.  The more you understand the better you can argue, Monty Python's Argument Clinic notwithstanding.

Cheers   --ewd


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## DaveBP (Feb 8, 2012)

No it isn't.


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## ALASKAPF185 (Feb 9, 2012)

The dual pipe baseboard meant for low temp applications is called   Heating Edge by smiths environmental products. Can be piped parallel, series or counter flow. At 110* degree water piped in parallel flow @ 2gpm it delivers 345 BTU/hr/ft. AN average 12x16' room can be heated with just 10' of this base board @ 110* water with a calculated heat loss of 15 btu/hr/sqft. Conventional baseboard would need 150* water thru a similar 10' section of slantfin. Low water temps and making use of old styles of radiation are becoming more popular. You might be able to find good schematics of applications on John Siegenthaler's website or articles. One such article that this info is from is in a free magazine " PM plumbing & mechanical" . Using lower temps also makes for a more comfortable and efficient system.


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## ALASKAPF185 (Feb 9, 2012)

Stratification is only a concern if the vessel being used is equal to the volume or within 150% of the system volume. Pretty much IDWH and solar buffer tanks. Lower temp returns are proportional , meaning it takes the same btu's to heat 1 cube 1 degree. There isn't any gain by returning it cooler in efficiency nor strat in a large buffer tank.  Every system I touch gets an engineers approval before making any changes, anyone can put a system together, but to get the most out of it , all the details need to be calculated. We have several supply houses that do this for free. Anything you can find from John Seigenthaler is worth while reading, there is no better in hydronix. Good Luck


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## DaBackBurner (Feb 9, 2012)

ALASKAPF185 said:
			
		

> Stratification is only a concern if the vessel being used is equal to the volume or within 150% of the system volume. Pretty much IDWH and solar buffer tanks. Lower temp returns are proportional , meaning it takes the same btu's to heat 1 cube 1 degree. There isn't any gain by returning it cooler in efficiency nor strat in a large buffer tank.


 Are you saying then that I could supply from the bottom of (way over 150% system volume) a storage vessel and return to the top of it and maintain the same storage time between firings of my wood boiler because stratification is not important in a large storage/buffer tank? If that's the case then it will make it much easier to install my circulator pulling from the bottom of my un-pressurized storage vessel because the NPSH requirement of that pump can be achieved much easier. I did not know that stratification in a storage vessel of over 150% system volume was not a concern. :bug: It probably doesn't make any difference then of the mathematical modeling of that storage vessel, with regards to its aspect ratio, to have any bearing either.





			
				ALASKAPF185 said:
			
		

> Every system I touch gets an engineers approval before making any changes,


 ... 





			
				ALASKAPF185 said:
			
		

> Anything you can find from John Seigenthaler is worth while reading, there is no better in hydronix. Good Luck


 I would agree that anything from John Siegenthaler is worth reading...especially if one does.


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## greynjaded (Feb 9, 2012)

Hi All,
I might try some folks patience but wanted to share an experience with a basic failure to deliver the goods, (heat) after sufficient production.
This was a 1950's multi family in NYC but try to ignore that. 
Heat source produced but at the radiators, or in this case baseboard etc. natural conduction is "delivery" method. The problem there was design.
Everyone thought it brilliant and less of an eyesore to hide radiators. Consequence was even poorer air flow and added heat loss.
Small low voltage fans with heat sensor/switch increased the efficiency with out too get a cost.
Point, air flow could be increased across the surface area of your baseboard fins, panels etc for a rather low tech fix.
Of course if it doesn't work, blame me and chalk up the $12 loss. Yes return temps will change.
But to be honest, that was a 77 unit b'ldg and I hated the place. Curious what y'all think.


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## woodsmaster (Feb 9, 2012)

ALASKAPF185 said:
			
		

> Stratification is only a concern if the vessel being used is equal to the volume or within 150% of the system volume. Pretty much IDWH and solar buffer tanks. Lower temp returns are proportional , meaning it takes the same btu's to heat 1 cube 1 degree. There isn't any gain by returning it cooler in efficiency nor strat in a large buffer tank


There may not be a gain in efficiency but there is a gain in the time you can go between fires. Keep your hot water on the top and the cold on the bottom.


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## ALASKAPF185 (Feb 12, 2012)

DaBackBurner said:
			
		

> ALASKAPF185 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




No, where would you get that? Maybe I should have explained in laymans terms for you, I don't like to type that much tho. JS has a nice article out this month on it, carefully explaining the natural effects of strat and  how in smaller tanks it can be beneficial to have a baffle to separate layers because of their smaller volume can quickly be overcome by system volume

Appreciate your sarcasm.... it goes well       I am sure you had your system professionally engineered, you don't sound like one of those that just did alot of internet research and slapped it together, or the typical old school installer that treats all systems the same.  cheers


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## velvetfoot (Aug 2, 2012)

Sorry for bringing up old thread, but it's very interesting to me.

I just read a little about the Smith's Environmental Heating Edge baseboard; it seems like the cat's meow for replacing an existing baseboard.  My baseboard is two zones, up and down, and single  pass (in series), if that's the right term, for each level.  
Can Heating Edge be used to simply replace that baseboard I described?

I saw an 8' section for $240 on line.  So, it would be a hit to replace everything.

Although I don't have a boiler (yet), the upstairs could use some more efficient baseboard to heat it up quicker with less cycling of the oil boiler (which is non condensing with an outdoor reset), since the insert heats the downstairs pretty well.  

Thanks.

Edit:  I just looked at their website, and it seems that running the two pipes in parallel gives the most btus/ft, so that should work out.


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## Eric Johnson (Aug 2, 2012)

Instead of in floor radiant, if you want to replace or augment the baseboard, I'd highly recommend cast iron radiators, though not on the same zone as the baseboard. Personally, I'd consider replacing the baseboards entirely with cast iron. 

As to the idea of modulating the fan for a longer burn, especially on cold nights, that's been my experience. Worth playing with for a longer burn, IME.


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## velvetfoot (Aug 2, 2012)

Not sure if I could get my wife to go along with cast iron radiators, even if I could find enough of them in the right sizes.  I don't think she'd even go for panel rads, never mind the piping changes on the second floor.  I like the idea of take the old one out and put the new, better performing, one in.  Might even be possible for a room or two before the winter.  Again, not cheap, but easi(er) - for me, lol.


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## Don2222 (Aug 2, 2012)

hiker88 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm in the same situation as you. I'm baseboard only and considering converting to a gassifier.
> 
> ...


 
Hello

*Why not change the burner on your oil boiler to a wood pellet burner?*

See pics here. All done for $6500
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/converting-my-oil-boiler-to-wood-pellets.84818/#post-1149977


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## velvetfoot (Aug 2, 2012)

Can't we keep it on the subject of low temp emitters?


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