# C.L. example of Alaskan wood dealers knowing that no one knows what dry wood is...



## AKSHADOW (Dec 4, 2010)

http://fairbanks.craigslist.org/for/2093749968.html

You simply cannot by properly seasoned firewood in Fairbanks! It does not exist,
and this is a perfect example of poor principles driving the poor market!


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## RoseRedHoofbeats (Dec 4, 2010)

That really, really pisses me off. I have a good friend who lives in Fairbanks and the idea of this schmuck making money of the need of people to heat their homes in one of the coldest, harshest winters on planet Earth just makes me want to kick him in the pants.

I sent him this email:

"You should be ashamed of yourself. Either you're too stupid to know that dry wood ALWAYS burns faster and longer than "half-seasoned", and if you are then you have NO business doing anything involving firewood, or you're a scam artist who is taking advantage of people who are desperate to heat their homes and need good fuel, and lying to them in order to make a quick buck."

~Rose


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## midwestcoast (Dec 4, 2010)

For posterity:

"Birch Firewood-Half Dry/partially seasoned. Burns hot and twice as long as fully dried Birch. 

$200 per cord-cut to your desired length 
$25 extra to split 
Delivery is free. 

We also have Green/Unseasoned in 8 ft lengths for $150 per cord"

So it's unsplit, uncut logs, to be cut & delivered ready to burn. Nice


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## RoseRedHoofbeats (Dec 4, 2010)

Oh, this should be fun. I got this reply:

_Wow, what an incredibly rude email. This is the very first time someone has complained or called me a con artist. I'll explain it to you since you don't understand. Half seasoned will always burn longer. Birch, Spruce, any kind of wood. It has a higher moisture content. Simple laws of nature. There are many online resources that will confirm this. It doesn't burn as hot as dry and it leaves more creasote, that is the downside. A lot of people buy it to mix in, it is much cheaper than dry birch which I sell for 375 a cord, but that was sold out a long time ago. I burn it in my home, to keep me and my family warm. I'd be glad to give you some free to try for yourself. _

375 A CORD?? For BIRCH? Are you out of your MIND?

This was my reply:

_Okay, so you're an idiot then. Let me explain this to you-

The wood is not burning any longer- it just taking longer TO burn. The moisture content must be evaporated before it can burn and produce heat. You are wasting BTUs evaporating the MC.

X amount of time to evaporate a 25-30% MC + Y burn time once it starts producing valuable BTUs = Z
A amount of time to evaporate a 15-20% MC + B burn time = C

So you factor in X amount of time to evaporate the higher MC plus Y amount of burn time might give you Z > C, but you are using valuable fuel and wasting time in order to make the same amount of heat in your home. It is not a benefit, it is a deficit.

Most people who are burning wood as their sole source of heat have no other option. Most of those people, additionally, do not know how to sweep their own chimneys. Intentionally selling them a high moisture, creosote producing wood -a soft wood, at that- and telling them that it's SUPERIOR to seasoned wood- it is nothing short of criminal in my opinion. Are you also telling them to make sure that they sweep their chimenys two or three times a year instead of only annually? In most modern EPA stoves and even most moderately efficient older stoves, you need DRY WOOD in order to operate them safely and efficiently._

~Rose


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## smokinj (Dec 4, 2010)

RoseRedHoofbeats said:
			
		

> Oh, this should be fun. I got this reply:
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> _Wow, what an incredibly rude email. This is the very first time someone has complained or called me a con artist. I'll explain it to you since you don't understand. Half seasoned will always burn longer. Birch, Spruce, any kind of wood. It has a higher moisture content. Simple laws of nature. There are many online resources that will confirm this. It doesn't burn as hot as dry and it leaves more creasote, that is the downside. A lot of people buy it to mix in, it is much cheaper than dry birch which I sell for 375 a cord, but that was sold out a long time ago. I burn it in my home, to keep me and my family warm. I'd be glad to give you some free to try for yourself. _
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Rose Remind me often to never get on your bad side! Thank You So Much Jay. J/k That should have him thinking over the weekend!


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## RoseRedHoofbeats (Dec 4, 2010)

I just spent six hours stuck in an airport with a two year old. And then I spent five hours on a plane with the same two year old. I'm not usually this cranky. =P

~Rose


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## ohio woodburner (Dec 4, 2010)

hmm.. I guess i'm missing something.  The poster seems honest about what he's selling.  Not as if he's selling "seasoned" wood thats not.  just my $.02....not that it counts


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## Backwoods Savage (Dec 4, 2010)

Rose, I understand where you are coming from and respect that but perhaps your wording could have been a bit softer. Honey draws more flies than vinegar. So please, don't ever let me get on your bad side. lol


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## PapaDave (Dec 4, 2010)

Yes dear, whatever you say dear. ;-P


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## project240 (Dec 4, 2010)

RoseRedHoofbeats said:
			
		

> 375 A CORD?? For BIRCH? Are you out of your MIND?



I can't even find that price in Alberta for seasoned firewood.  It's terrible really.  Most of our options are overpriced softwoods...  Some guy nearby trying to sell larch at $650/cord...

I've been searching trying to find somewhere nearby where I can buy a load of log length hardwoods...


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## AKSHADOW (Dec 5, 2010)

hahaha, that gave me a good laugh. Rose's words may have been harsh, but she did identify the problem. The seller's conclusion is almost valid-his wording is intentionally
producing a false statement - which Rose pointed out. His reasoning is not sound if he is to use the specific conclusion he is advertising. He's ALMOST honest.


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## Wallyworld (Dec 5, 2010)

RoseRedHoofbeats said:
			
		

> The wood is not burning any longer- it just taking longer TO burn.


Huh?


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## AKSHADOW (Dec 5, 2010)

Wallyworld said:
			
		

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Seller claims wetter wood burns longer. That's not true, the truth of the matter is that the wood stays in the firebox longer because it takes a long time evaporate the water out of the wood in order to get it to burn. So yes, it does burn but only the outer edges, the rest is drying, and the result is the wood stays in the firebox longer which makes it seem like its burning longer


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## RoseRedHoofbeats (Dec 5, 2010)

After trying for weeks to find decent wood and almost getting scammed about nine dozen times, I rather lost my sunny disposition with dealers like this. They're no better than scam artists. I would use just as harsh a tone with an electrical company or a power plant that tried to pull a fast one like that, too. 

The problem is claming that wet wood burns hotter/faster/longer/is better. It doesn't. We all know that. Water in the wood impedes the whole burning process. The water must evaporate first -essentially, the wood has to finish drying out- whether that takes place in a woodshed or in a stove. The problem with drying wood in your stove is that your 1) Wasting time, 2) Wasting fuel and money, 3) Producing creosote which is dangerous and bad for the environment, 4) and hampering the effiency of your stove. My absolute longest friend, that I've known since I was 11, lives in Fairbanks now and she buys wood for her stove, and so do her mother and father in law. People selling half-seasoned wood isn't anything new, but the idea of someone selling them some line about wet wood like that absolutely burns my britches. 

~Rose


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## Rockey (Dec 5, 2010)

Honestly, your out of line Rose. Go back and read it nice and slow, line by line. Not one lie in his advertisement. At worst it was a slight deception when he said "burns hot" but I have made a hot fire from green firewood before. He isnt one of the CR advertisers that is trying to push this off like it is seasoned wood. He even followed up with a good reply to your email. I think your being a bit too biased because of the bad experiences you had from truly bad dealers


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## rdust (Dec 5, 2010)

I have not issues with the CL ad, he doesn't say it's seasoned wood anywhere.  If someone decides to buy partial seasoned wood from him it may be for next season.


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## Lumber-Jack (Dec 5, 2010)

Wallyworld said:
			
		

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That's what I've been saying about oak compared to pine, oak doesn't burn longer, it just takes longer to burn.  ;-) 

Seriously, the length of the burn time isn't the issue between seasoned and unseasoned wood. Environmental and creosote issues aside, with the right stove settings either wood can be made to burn for a shorter hotter period of time or a longer cooler period of time, but whatever the length of the burn, seasoned wood will produce more useful heat from the same volume of wood because it isn't evaporating the water. 
If the wood is burning, it's burning. Arguing that you can't count the burn time because the wood still contains moisture just doesn't make sense. Better to argue that high moisture content wood produces less usable heat than low moisture content wood, because that's the real point.
I could get a 10 hour smoldering fire out of my old Blaze King smoke dragon if I loaded it to the gills with some large half seasoned rounds, but I can only get about 8 hours out of my new EPA stove with about half the volume of nice dry splits. So was the Blaze King and wet wood better because it could burn longer? No. The difference is in the heat output, that is what makes the EPA stove and dry wood so much better, that and the clean burn.


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## Wallyworld (Dec 5, 2010)

AKSHADOW said:
			
		

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I've been burning wood for many many years, I understand what wet wood does in a stove, The sentence makes no sense.


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## AKSHADOW (Dec 6, 2010)

Wallyworld said:
			
		

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If it makes no sense then you do not understand how specific wording creates meaning in a sentence. The only thing wrong with the sentence
is grammatical, not with the meaning conveyed.


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## bogydave (Dec 6, 2010)

Here is just one source I found for Alaska.
Of course the U of Ak Fairbanks facts  probably won't mean anything to this CL seller
http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF5/555.html
 dry wood is cleaner burning also (but another fact that may upset the CL seller)
http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF20/2024.html


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## avanderheuel (Dec 6, 2010)

You should try and get dry wood in South East Alaska. 250 for a "cord" of spruce


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## nate379 (Dec 6, 2010)

That's about what it goes for here.


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## krex1010 (Dec 6, 2010)

I'll play the contrarian here. I dnt really have a problem with that cl ad. He is being fairly honest about what he is selling.  Alot of guys will claim they have mixed hardwoods, lead you to believe it is oak, ash etc and you end up with soft maple poplar etc. And alot of guys will claim there wood is seasoned for over a year when it is really was split like a month earlier. This guy is being honest about the species and honest about it being not seasoned.  As for claiming it will burn hot and longer than dry wood, there is a grain of truth there even though it may be misleading, but that's just a man advertising and talking up his product (without out and out lying about it) I don't really have a problem with that.  That kind of stuff goes in in every industry whether it is outlandish mpg claims in vehicles, square footage heated in a woodstove brochure or trying to convince people that partially seasoned wood is useable. And as for the price, hey if the man can get that much money then who am I to tell him to sell cheaper.  
I just think the seller has the obligation to not misrepresent his product or service. Then the onus is on the buyer to be educated on the product he or she is buying.


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## joefrompa (Dec 6, 2010)

I agree. Whether it burns longer or takes longer to burn, the guy is saying it's in the stove longer. Also, I've seen plenty of people on here who add green or semi-seasoned wood to a load for various reasons.

The guy was walking the line, absolutely, but he wasn't an outright scam artist and he was describing his wood accurately as far as I can tell....

Further, it's important to note that 99% of people in this world believe truths told to them by people they respect. So don't ascribe malice when ignorance is just as likely. I was told by my father in law, with dread seriousness, that burning pine is almost a sure-fire way to get a bad chimney fire as all the sap stays in the chimney. He's been burning for a long time and has it "in his blood". I respect him too. But I came on here and found out the truth. Alot of people would just believe it.


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## Mcbride (Dec 6, 2010)

I read the CL ad 3 times, still looking for how he is ripping people off.
I see far worse on ebay and cl daily....just my 2cents.


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## santacruzbluz (Dec 6, 2010)

He clearly stated the wood isn't dry yet...that's better than most of the wood sellers around here do.


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## firefighterjake (Dec 6, 2010)

I don't see an issue with the ad . . . in fact he seems to be more honest than many folks by stating up front it is not truly seasoned.


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## Lumber-Jack (Dec 6, 2010)

krex1010 said:
			
		

> I'll play the contrarian here. I dnt really have a problem with that cl ad. He is being fairly honest about what he is selling.  Alot of guys will claim they have mixed hardwoods, lead you to believe it is oak, ash etc and you end up with soft maple poplar etc. And alot of guys will claim there wood is seasoned for over a year when it is really was split like a month earlier. This guy is being honest about the species and honest about it being not seasoned.  *As for claiming it will burn hot* and longer than dry wood, there is a grain of truth there even though it may be misleading, but that's just a man advertising and talking up his product (without out and out lying about it) I don't really have a problem with that.  That kind of stuff goes in in every industry whether it is outlandish mpg claims in vehicles, square footage heated in a woodstove brochure or trying to convince people that partially seasoned wood is useable. And as for the price, hey if the man can get that much money then who am I to tell him to sell cheaper.
> I just think the seller has the obligation to not misrepresent his product or service. Then the onus is on the buyer to be educated on the product he or she is buying.




Actually the guy is not claiming it will burn "hot" or hotter, he just says it will burn longer.  In fact in his reply to Rose's email he says, and I quote, _"It doesn’t burn as hot as dry and it leaves more creasote, that is the downside." _

As for it burning longer or taking longer to burn, or however you want to put it, I've already pointed out this isn't necessarily true because burn time has just as much, or more, to to with your stove and stove settings than it has to do with moisture content of wood. When burning wetter wood people generally open the draft more to get it to burn hotter and faster. Of course if you were to mix some dry wood with some wet wood, of the same size and type, in the stove and burn it then the guy will be right, the wet wood will be the last wood to completely burn up, thus it will burn longer, or take longer to burn, which is the same thing really.

If you are the type who likes to burn long smoldering fires in your old smoke dragon woodstove, then this firewood dealer may be just the ticket for your firewood needs.


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## Snag (Dec 6, 2010)

I agree that the guy is walking a fine line and using semantics to keep his balance. The problem is that it's all "relative" and reminds me of terms like "low fat" or "reduced sodium". The landscaper down the road is selling "seasoned" cords and I know that wood hasn't been cut or split for more than a month. I don't think there is a "government standard" that has to be met before someone can advert firewood as being "seasoned". It wouldn't surprise me if that fella down the road isn't out there sprinkling salt and pepper on it right before he places the ad on CL. 

Carolyn


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## krex1010 (Dec 7, 2010)

Carbon_liberator
The ad stated " burns hot and twice as long as fully dried birch" a statement I said has a singular grain of truth but is misleading.  The singular grain of truth being that "hot" is a subjective term that could be used to describe any fire. And partially seasoned wood can be made to smolder, smoke, hiss and "burn" for a long time (long being another subjective term).  My point was that this guys ad wasn't full of the out and out lies that are common on cragslist and common with many scanners out there. The guy flat out said he is selling partially seasoned and green wood and I really don't have a problem with him trying to talk up his product, what's he supposed to say? Should he say " I have a bunch of unseasoned crap firewood?". The fact is anyone buying from him knows what kind of firewood they are getting, so that makes the ad honest enough for me.  And I a big believer that as a consumer it is your responsibility to yourself to have a basic understanding of whatever you are buying and to be able to recognize a  fair deal from a ripoff, this guys ad is honest enough that any reasonably knowledgeable woodburner will not be duped into thinking he is getting anything other than unseasoned wood of a certain species.
And just so you know, I wouldn't buy his wood for half the price he is selling it. I don't buy wood and I all my wood is split for at least a year before I burn it, no smoldering, hissing fires in my stoves.


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## pugetsoundwa (Dec 7, 2010)

ohio woodburner said:
			
		

> hmm.. I guess i'm missing something.  The poster seems honest about what he's selling.  Not as if he's selling "seasoned" wood thats not.  just my $.02....not that it counts



Sir, you beat me to the punch. HOW IS THIS MAN IN THE AD A CON ARTIST??? So its not seasoned..so what? for the right price I would buy green and let it season, saves me the work. Point being the right price. He states what he is selling, he isn't making a claim he can't back up. Sounds like some just want to criticize anyone for any reason..


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## joel95ex (Dec 7, 2010)

i clicked the link and I guess the ad was edited..... to an uneducated buyer it may lead him/her to believe that burning unseasoned wood is ok. but the guy is stating that it is not fully seasoned.   do the research, use a meter, and season it yourself to be sure.


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## okotoks guy (Dec 7, 2010)

project240 said:
			
		

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LOL That's probably me! I hauled that wood in from Canal Flats in BC(5 Hour drive). Its very expensive because of the hauling.
The trees themselves are not worth much money,but since they have to come in from so far they get expensive. I am 
actually going to try to get more.The people I have sold half cords to are calling wanting full cords for January delivery.
In Alberta, so many people are selling poplar,pine and spruce for anywhere from $200-$400/cord.That is what is available
locally.The good stuff must all be trucked in,that is what takes the $$$. I need equipment to bring it in;trailer and 1Ton diesel.
I need room to store and process it;acreage.And then I need to deliver it.Every step takes time and money.If this same wood grew in my backyard, I could sell it delivered for $250/cord. 
I have seen the stuff that other guys are selling and it ain't pretty.They sell face cords as half cords and the stuff was cut
in the last few months.This why the people who have bought from me are willing to pay for, and want full cords for $650.
The wood really is that good compared to the crap that others are selling.

Project240. I would suggest contacting SRD and getting a Birch cutting permit.The cutting area is around the 
Ghost Reservoir area and you can cut a few cord for $5.00.


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## maplewood (Dec 7, 2010)

Rockey said:
			
		

> ... read it nice and slow, line by line. Not one lie in his advertisement.



Unless I am reading a different ad that some of you, I see a firewood seller that is clearly stating that his product is sold in two moisture conditions:  half-dry (partially seasoned), and green (unseasoned).
That's straight forward to me.  My choice to burn it now, or finish seasoning it.

Prices, as we all well know, are varied by location, season and "what the market can bear".  $200/cord, cut, split and delivered isn't any shocker to me.  I lived in Fairbanks for 2 years.  White birch is the best hardwood you can find up there.  We all know it dries fairly quickly - a year is good.

I think the seller is getting raked over the coals here.


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## yanksforever (Dec 7, 2010)

RoseRedHoofbeats said:
			
		

> Oh, this should be fun. I got this reply:
> 
> _Wow, what an incredibly rude email. This is the very first time someone has complained or called me a con artist. I'll explain it to you since you don't understand. Half seasoned will always burn longer. Birch, Spruce, any kind of wood. It has a higher moisture content. Simple laws of nature. There are many online resources that will confirm this. It doesn't burn as hot as dry and it leaves more creasote, that is the downside. A lot of people buy it to mix in, it is much cheaper than dry birch which I sell for 375 a cord, but that was sold out a long time ago. I burn it in my home, to keep me and my family warm. I'd be glad to give you some free to try for yourself. _
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You get an A for your Math Class...BUT...you get an F for your manners. Try to have a debate next time...not a name calling tirade! Be Polite! Start over with an apology and a new start! We get where you are both coming from but taking your anger out on an innocent person isn't fair.


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## Mcbride (Dec 7, 2010)

You folks make me feel lazy.
I get a logging truck load dumped in the yard, and buck it to length.
Toss it in the bobcat bucket and run it to the old unused barn, and dump it on the pile like that.
Once down to just 3 or 4 years left of wood, I get my pal to bring me another load.
I make 3 or more piles in the barn, and when i need wood go to the oldest pile and get what i need, its still round, and just use my splitting maul to split enough for say 3 or 4 days.
When down to just a day or 2 of wood left, go get a bit more and split it.
I prefer to split it once its been piled for say 3 or more years, as its easier to split.
And I am too lazy to split a year or mores wood all at once.
Once dry my 8 pound splitting maul makes it go pretty easy.
Oneday I plan to go high tech and buy a gas powered splitter.


I cut as long as possible so it just fits into my blaze king heater. Sucks when i eye ball cutting wrong, and try to get a piece in thats an inch too long for the heater. lol


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## AKSHADOW (Dec 7, 2010)

I think everyone has missed my point here.

1. Seller is, yes, honest enough in that they have stated they are selling unseasoned wood

2. However, seller is using rhetoric to manipulate how one thinks unseasoned word performs

3. Selling firewood at sub-par qualities at unjustified high prices drives the market artificially high. There is no wood shortage in Fairbanks. There are a TON of people selling firewood - AND ITS ALL WET.
    The only reason the market stays at its current status is the reinforcement of poor wood-burning ideologies by sellers. Bottom-line. The only reason prices should be high is:

     1a. A product shortage, thus a natural market price increase

What sellers do in Fairbanks:

1. They cut wood, don't season it, and turn around and sell it. All the while claiming that unseasoned wood at high prices is perfectly acceptable when there is no shortage of wood or sellers in town.

Of course it is up to the buyer to "beware". They are responsible for their own choice. However, one is not absolved from blame by the example: "Oh well, everyone else was stealing so I just figured I would steal too. Its no different than anyone else."

Maybe I'm coming off too strong here as well. I guess I am just tired of everyone's complacency and indifference towards poor market principles. Trust me - this is a common theme in Alaskan economics.


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## krex1010 (Dec 7, 2010)

The price of woo


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## krex1010 (Dec 7, 2010)

The price of wood is what it is because people are willing to pay the price! If nobody buys wood at a certain price then the price will come down. It's that simple. If you don't want to pay a certain price for wood then don't buy it.  Take the time to find and process your own wood.  People who sell wood invest time and effort to process and sell firewood and they have every right to charge whatever price the want. The only responsibilities a wood seller has to his customer is to be honest about what kind f wood it is, how long it has been split and give an honest cord and deliver in an acceptable manner. That's it. If a guy thinks his time and effort is worth $1000 dollars a cord then it is his right to sell it at that price, that doesn't mean anyone has to buy it.
If you have to buy wood then shop around, if you can only find green wood the think ahead and buy it a year ahead.  I am sorry if I am offending anyone here but this is the reality of the wood business.  If you as a customer are waiting until now to buy wood for this season then the fact that you can't get seasoned wood is your fault, not the fault of people selling wood.  Heating with wood requires planning ahead, if a person can't plan ahead and wants to get quality heating fuel by making a phone call then heat with pellets or gas or oil. No offense intended here, just trying to be straight forward.  Hope you good folks from Alaska arent ticked at me! Lol


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## Mcbride (Dec 7, 2010)

Many things are over priced, not just wood.
Go  buy a new truck, or a video game, a bag of popcorn at the movie theater.
if you don't like it protest by not opening your wallet and buying it.


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## project240 (Dec 8, 2010)

okotoks guy said:
			
		

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I understand everyone has their costs... I love burning wood and have talked with a tree service and plan to pick up as much as I can from them next spring/summer.  But for the time being, I'd like to be able to buy some properly seasoned wood without having to pay a ridiculous price for it.  I can just sit back and turn on the furnace and pay much less than if I had to pay even $400/cord.

I'm extremely jealous about the people down south who I read about buying log lengths of oak delivered for $1500 for 16-18 cords.  Just talked with a guy in Southern Alberta tonight about a 16 cord load of douglas fir for only about $4500 delivered, lol.  Really...?  Almost $300/cord for log length fir...?


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## project240 (Dec 8, 2010)

okotoks guy said:
			
		

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I understand everyone has their costs... I love burning wood and have talked with a tree service and plan to pick up as much as I can from them next spring/summer.  But for the time being, I'd like to be able to buy some properly seasoned wood without having to pay a ridiculous price for it.  I can just sit back and turn on the furnace and pay much less than if I had to pay even $400/cord.

I'm extremely jealous about the people down south who I read about buying log lengths of oak delivered for $1500 for 16-18 cords.  Just talked with a guy in Southern Alberta tonight about a 16 cord load of douglas fir for only about $4500 delivered, lol.  Really...?  Almost $300/cord for log length fir...?


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## JustWood (Dec 8, 2010)

krex1010 said:
			
		

> The price of wood is what it is because people are willing to pay the price! If nobody buys wood at a certain price then the price will come down. It's that simple. If you don't want to pay a certain price for wood then don't buy it.  Take the time to find and process your own wood.  People who sell wood invest time and effort to process and sell firewood and they have every right to charge whatever price the want. The only responsibilities a wood seller has to his customer is to be honest about what kind f wood it is, how long it has been split and give an honest cord and deliver in an acceptable manner. That's it. If a guy thinks his time and effort is worth $1000 dollars a cord then it is his right to sell it at that price, that doesn't mean anyone has to buy it.
> If you have to buy wood then shop around, if you can only find green wood the think ahead and buy it a year ahead.  I am sorry if I am offending anyone here but this is the reality of the wood business.  If you as a customer are waiting until now to buy wood for this season then the fact that you can't get seasoned wood is your fault, not the fault of people selling wood.  Heating with wood requires planning ahead, if a person can't plan ahead and wants to get quality heating fuel by making a phone call then heat with pellets or gas or oil. No offense intended here, just trying to be straight forward.  Hope you good folks from Alaska arent ticked at me! Lol



AMEN, brother! You took the words right outta my mouth.


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## okotoks guy (Dec 8, 2010)

I guess the advice I would give to those who hate the cost of delivered,seasoned,split firewood
is this: Figure out what you think a fair price is (what you would be happy to pay)and start a 
firewood business and sell at that price. You'll make a killing putting all the overpriced guys out of business!


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## project240 (Dec 8, 2010)

okotoks guy said:
			
		

> I guess the advice I would give to those who hate the cost of delivered,seasoned,split firewood
> is this: Figure out what you think a fair price is (what you would be happy to pay)and start a
> firewood business and sell at that price. You'll make a killing putting all the overpriced guys out of business!



I'm sure there are many many people who hate the cost of firewood in our area, but I bet 99% of them would never start their own business because of it.


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## krex1010 (Dec 8, 2010)

Here is another thing that most people don't understand.  I live in a Philadelphia suburb.  If I want to buy wood I can get a cord for around $200 for mixed hardwoods.  But that wood cost more to get to my house than you folks are paying up in Alaska, but as a a a firewood customer I am not paying the majority of that cost.  Here is how it works.  Let's say the wood came from a medium sized oak in someones back yard.  That person probably paid $2000-3000 minimum to have that tree cut down.  Now that tree service takes that tree and makes firewood and let's say they get 5 cords out of it. So with selling 5 cords at $200 and charging $3000 dollars to cutthe tree that guy made $4000 on one medium oak tree. So by my math that's $800 a cord , and that tree likely never left a 10 mile radius when being cut down, hauled and split, and hauled to whoever buys the firewood. I am sure up north the industry is different, people don't make as much for tree removal, longer distances to haul wood, and alot of outfits are not getting paid until they sell the wood they cut (as opposed to being paid to just cut the tree around here) so in that case the person buying the wood will pay the lions share of the cost, where I live the person wanting the tree removed pays the lions share.


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## nate379 (Dec 8, 2010)

Yes.

I don't know if some buisness owners are stupid.  Before the internet I guess maybe it was easy to get away with it, but now adays, no way.

I needed tires for my truck.  The local tire places I went to wanted $1500-1600 for the tires and mount/balance.

I ordered them from the internet and shipped up here on the barge.  Cost me $900 total.  Then $60 for a regular auto shop to mount and balance.

They say they have to cover shipping "It's Alaska... its more expensive"... yeah... B/S! 



			
				AKSHADOW said:
			
		

> Trust me - this is a common theme in Alaskan economics.


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## AKSHADOW (Dec 8, 2010)

NATE379 said:
			
		

> Yes.
> 
> I don't know if some buisness owners are stupid.  Before the internet I guess maybe it was easy to get away with it, but now adays, no way.
> 
> ...



And this is exactly what I am pointing out. Many things, including firewood, seem to fall under this false catch-all "its more expensive in Alaska." 

As for the industry here, wood dealers arent going around cutting people's backyard trees for firewood sales. They are cutting from privately owned lots or state land with cutting permits or state land that is open to the public.

The attitudes that reinforce the belief that anyone has the right to charge anything they want for a particular product completely ignores logistical market growth and decline values.  But I guess economics, and the study of, don't really matter to anyone. Great. I hope that bites everyone the next time they realized they've been gouged at the gas pump - its not like oil companies are top heavy right?


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## roddy (Dec 8, 2010)

the person who sits on his butt by the fire and tries to dictate what the price of firewood in their area should be is at best,slightly foolish.the price  an item is ultimately sold for is determined buy wha price the market will bear,business basics 101....500 bucks a cord,go for it,1250 for an ounce of gold,ok,4.00 a gallon of gas (outrageous) but we pay it anyway


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## krex1010 (Dec 8, 2010)

If a wood dealer is cutting on private land, then thy are paying the landowner for the lumber, if they are cutting on public land then I'm sure that's a more profitable way to go, but they still have to pay for equipment, wages, transportation costs.  Not to mention that their overhead is more if everything really is more expensive in alaska.   I'm not say I would be happy to pay what you pay for wood, I wouldn't do it.  But if Joe schmoe can sell logs for $4500 dollars a load then what right does anyone else have to tell him to sell it cheaper? If he is willing to negotiate then do that if not then walk away.  Profit is not a dirty word and every business has to be profitable to survive. And it's not like anyone has a gun to your head forcing you to heat with bought firewood.  If you want to discuss economics let's do it, but what's the first thing they teach in economics? Supply and demand.  Supply and demand set a markets price.  In different areas different markets are outrageously priced compared to the areas.  Firewood is reasonable where I live, but if I want to move and buy a house in my area I will have to shell out around $400,000 to buy a newer 4 bedroom house on like half an acre, sounds ridiculous to me, so i am not moving.  But I am not going to tell the guy selling the house that he should be ashamed of himself for getting the most money he can for his product. You compared the wood industry to the oil industry which I think isn't apples to apples ( international business with thousands of employees compared to a small business) but think about what happened when the government tried to ignore the market and tried to control gas prices, long lines for gas, could only buy gas on certain days, gas stations with no gas.  How many people will still sell firewood if they are told to cut their price in half? Try getting good wood then.


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## okotoks guy (Dec 8, 2010)

okotoks guy said:
			
		

> I guess the advice I would give to those who hate the cost of delivered,seasoned,split firewood
> is this: Figure out what you think a fair price is (what you would be happy to pay)and start a
> firewood business and sell at that price. You'll make a killing putting all the overpriced guys out of business!



I was being Sarcastic.

What some people charge for firewood is also determined by what typical wages are for the area. Where I live,
a guy capable of cutting,splitting,lifting firewood can go out and get a job for at least $18 an hour no problem.
I would also assume that in Alasaka there are not too many guys capable of heavy, physical work,working for
$7.00 an hour.It always amazes me that the people who like to bragg "I work hard for my money" expect others
to work for peanuts! The firewood thing is not my sole income,I could not make a living at it. 
My wife's uncle is one of these " Cordwood should be delivered and stacked for no more than a hundred bucks" types.
I told him to deliver and stack a cord of wood to my house and I would pay Double........$200. He said I'm not doing
that kind of work for $200. But he expects somebody else too!!
The people purchasing wood from me like to have a fire once or twice a week and want wood that is going to burn 
well.They don't mind paying top prices for top product.They are most definitely not heating with purchased firewood
in order to offset heating costs. In my area,nobody can offset heating costs by having wood in any form delivered to
their homes.It's that simple.In order to save money,the work must be done by the burner.That means cutting down
their own trees and hauling the wood with their own equipment.


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## Lumber-Jack (Dec 8, 2010)

Firewood is a funny thing, it's value can vary so much, not only from region to region, but from person to person, especially on a personal level.

Take me, I couldn't see myself paying more than $75  for a cord of wood because I get my wood for free (minus overhead) and I enjoy the work on the few occasions I get out to do it. If I did ever have to pay for wood for some reason, I'm pretty fussy, it would all have to be seasoned, and all cut just to the right length for my stove,  no log length, and no odd sizes. I keep my chainsaw cutting to a minimum in my yard, it's just not big enough to store and process large quantities of wood. (max price I'd pay for wood -$75)

On the other hand, if I was to try and make a business out of it, I would want at least $400 per cord (cut and delivered but not split). I well know the work involved and the wear and tear on equipment involved. It's hard work and you need equipment that not everybody has. (eg. truck, chainsaw, etc..)  (min. price I'd sell wood $400)

Now if I knew someone was in urgent need, and was trying to keep their family warm with firewood but was in short supply, I'd surely give it away. (min - max price FREE)

To me it's kind of like buying fish vs. fishing. How much would you pay in the supermarket for enough trout for one meal?  How much would you pay for a weekend fishing when you bring home a enough trout for one meal.


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## AKSHADOW (Dec 9, 2010)

krex1010 said:
			
		

> If a wood dealer is cutting on private land, then thy are paying the landowner for the lumber, if they are cutting on public land then I'm sure that's a more profitable way to go, but they still have to pay for equipment, wages, transportation costs.  Not to mention that their overhead is more if everything really is more expensive in alaska.   I'm not say I would be happy to pay what you pay for wood, I wouldn't do it.  But if Joe schmoe can sell logs for $4500 dollars a load then what right does anyone else have to tell him to sell it cheaper? If he is willing to negotiate then do that if not then walk away.  Profit is not a dirty word and every business has to be profitable to survive. And it's not like anyone has a gun to your head forcing you to heat with bought firewood.  If you want to discuss economics let's do it, but what's the first thing they teach in economics? Supply and demand.  Supply and demand set a markets price.  In different areas different markets are outrageously priced compared to the areas.  Firewood is reasonable where I live, but if I want to move and buy a house in my area I will have to shell out around $400,000 to buy a newer 4 bedroom house on like half an acre, sounds ridiculous to me, so i am not moving.  But I am not going to tell the guy selling the house that he should be ashamed of himself for getting the most money he can for his product. You compared the wood industry to the oil industry which I think isn't apples to apples ( international business with thousands of employees compared to a small business) but think about what happened when the government tried to ignore the market and tried to control gas prices, long lines for gas, could only buy gas on certain days, gas stations with no gas.  How many people will still sell firewood if they are told to cut their price in half? Try getting good wood then.



Apparently you have not read a single thing I have except what you think I am whining about. Which I assure you, is not my purpose. First of all, to clear the air, I own 4 acres of heavily wooded land and do not need to rely on others for my fuel. Secondly, when I said private land I meant that most own their land, clear it to sell wood, then sell the property. Otherwise they are cutting own publicly owned land. Third, supply and demand? Have you not understood that it is exactly that which is my point I have tried, obviously unsuccessfully, to coax out of this debate. There is PLENTY of supply. Just because there is a high demand does not warrant an artificially high price. This is known as GOUGING. What has happened is firewood dealers are not seasoning their wood for one purpose: 

1. If unseasoned wood is the common item then it goes for a given price.

2. It follows that seasoned wood is then a scarcity.

Conclusion *Thus seasoned wood should go for a higher price, which in turn is rather unreasonable relative to the rest of the United States the differing respective states' wood supplies.

The problem with this reasoning is that waiting does not create any more work for a wood dealer. IT JUST SITS THERE. If anything, seasoning is the easiest thing to do. So, dealers get greedy, don't wait to season there wood and just flood the market with wet wood, other dealers follow suit and the few that take the time to season wood charge astronomical prices. So not only are the prices way too high for wet wood, but the same for dry wood - if you can find it.


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## JustWood (Dec 9, 2010)

Been in the firewood biz for 23 or 24 years.
1. There is no such thing as price gouging. This is a made up term by those who feel entitled.
2. There is no such thing as greed. This is a made up term by the have nots about the haves.

My wood price goes up $50/cord the minute snow is in the forecast.
My wood price goes up the following year after a whiney wood customer complains about snow in the load or dirt on the wood or too much bark (ya, that's a good one I've heard a thousand times).
I sell green and seasoned and advertise accordingLEE.
I actually do have a blacklist of doodew head wood customers. I also keep a card file that I refer to every time a phone  order is made. Notes like complainer,fussy,don't like ruts in yard, no hickory, bounced check,don't like ANY snow in load,maple only,careful on drive,watch overhead wires,mean dog,horny wife, etc.
50% of my customers are a royal pain in the ass and I don't think it's different anywhere else.
If I have a customer that never complains, always has his drive plowed and gives me a level place to dump he gets a discount. Whiners and those that make it hard to deliver get charged MAX.
I charge maximum $ that the market will allow. I'm well established and know the ropes so I can do that AND get big $. If you don't like it go over to the thermostat and turn it up. Then call the gas company and complain to them OR beter yet , go cut your own dam wood!

The guy in AK did nothing other than tell a BS story. He went fishin' for trout and got bass.
As with any product and being a consumer, get educated and know what you're buying so you don't have to blame anyone else.


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## krex1010 (Dec 9, 2010)

AKSHADOW said:
			
		

> krex1010 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




i disagree that letting wood sit and season for a year is not costing a dealer.  in business time=money, i'm sure you have heard of that.  think about what you are saying from a dealer's perspective.  you expect someone to invest the time and effort to split the amount of wood that he projects to sell in a year, then let that wood sit for a year to season, in the meantime ignoring the fact that there are people willing to buy his green wood for a profitable price.  i am sorry but that is ridiculous! there is absolutely nothing wrong with a dealer selling green firewood (as long as they are honest about when it was split)  green wood is a sellable commodity, not waiting for it to season for a year isn't being greedy, it is simply taking advantage of available bussiness.  there is nothing wrong with buying green wood either, the buyer just has to season it themself.  you expect a dealer to sit on wood for a year before they sell it, why cant a consumer stop sitting on his wallet and buy his wood a year in advance?

i also disagree that the prices up there are artificially high, you say there is plenty of supply, but seasoned wood is scarce. how can that be?  if the supply is exceeding demand then i would expect that alot of wood goes unsold every year, so that would mean that seasoned wood should be available every year because last years green wood wasn't sold.  you live in a cold region, it would take an enormous supply of firewood to exceed demand, and the only way prices will drop in any market is if supply exceeds demand.  there may be plenty of wood/trees up there but trees do not equal firewood, you burn wood and it sounds like you process your own wood so you know what it takes to turn a tree into firewood, and in your climate how much time out of the year is it really reasonable to expect people to be outside processing firewood?
i think that the supply is shorter than you think, which equals high prices.  it sucks but it is the reality.  by the way i hope you arent taking anything i say personally, i am enjoying our conversation here, nothing wrong with a healthy debate right?


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## smokinj (Dec 9, 2010)

Just goes to show you the firewood jockey is not the glam we all think it is! lol


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## krex1010 (Dec 9, 2010)

A-cord-ingLEE said:
			
		

> Been in the firewood biz for 23 or 24 years.
> 1. There is no such thing as price gouging. This is a made up term by those who feel entitled.
> 2. There is no such thing as greed. This is a made up term by the have nots about the haves.
> 
> ...



He went fishin' for trout and got bass
love that line bro, i may use that sometime.  
i worked for a tree service all through high school and college, we split wood as a side gig, so i have a basic understanding of the dealer side of the story.  we rarely had the time to keep enough wood split for it to properly season, so we sold green wood. we told our customers it was not seasoned and we always recomended that they buy well in advance so the wood had time to season before it was burnt. if they made the decision to buy  and burn wood in november that was split in september then that was their call, but they were all well aware of the state of the wood when they bought it. i feel we did right by our customers by being up front about the wood being green and you let the customer decide if they want it or not.  and our prices were what they were, we werent cheap, if people didnt like our price they could get it from someone else.  we sold firewood to make money, not because we enjoy splitting wood and heating other peoples homes.


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## okotoks guy (Dec 9, 2010)

In my experience,the people who complain the most about wood prices are the same people 
that don't want to do the work themselves.These guys want their firewood delivered for a certain
price and when they can't find anybody who will do it for that price they call it price gouging! 
I have a neighbor and we were both going outside to shovel our driveways. He commented about 
"the nerve of some kid wanting $20 to shovel the driveway." The same kid came to my place and
I politely declined and mentioned that I needed the exercise more than he did! Anyways, the neighbor 
told me that he offered the kid $5 and the kid refused. I asked the neighbor if he'd be interested in 
shovelling my driveway for $5.Answer:No Way It's funny that he expected some 14 or 15 year old
kid to work for an amount that he would not work for.
I work with a guy who figures that he should be able to pick up a few acres of waterfront property
with a nice cabin on it within 2 or 3 hours of Calgary for "25-30 grand." The place he described sells
for about half a million around here! Guess what he figures..............A-Holes price gouging!I asked him 
that if he had a property like that if he would sell it for $25000..............Of course not;he would keep it
in the family.
At the end of the day,if you don't like the price of something,don't buy it. But don't expect to be able
to name your price or complain about somebody's price for work or a service you don't want to do.


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## rdust (Dec 10, 2010)

I'm always amused when people complain about firewood pricing.  If you don't find the pricing fair move on to the next guy.  I process almost all of my own wood(bought a cord or so from Dennis last year) and for me I could never sell firewood.  It takes way too much time and effort for me to be able to put a price on it.  Now if someone needed help sure I'd sell them some for a very fair price or just give it to them.  Other than that my wood will stay in my yard.


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## krex1010 (Dec 10, 2010)

Neely jersey...... Nice.

And right on with what you said


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## Mrs. Krabappel (Dec 10, 2010)

A-cord-ingLEE said:
			
		

> As with any product and being a consumer, get educated and know what you're buying so you don't have to blame anyone else.



I don't think my wood guy gets enough $$$, all things considered.    For just the delivery end of it he braves my driveway and my mean dog.  No horny wife though  ;-)
He brings the splitter all the way across town and takes care of that for me for small fee.    There's no middle man and much of my money stays right here in H-ville NC.    I've never seen a wood guy driving a Mercedes.  Usually some old F150.


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## Mcbride (Dec 10, 2010)

Any business or person for that matter wants to flip stock as fast as possible, thats how they make money.
It does not matter if its a car dealer, grocery store, hardware, clothing, or firewood.

The people that think its not hard on the wood dealer to hold onto wood for a year or so and not sell any, until its seasoned, as yourself this.
If you start a business, would you be happy if it only had a lot of costs, and never made a dime for a year or more?
Or if you started a new job, would you be pleased if the boss said, we will starting paying you in a year from now, but work hard starting now.

I did not think so.


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## project240 (Dec 10, 2010)

okotoks guy said:
			
		

> In my experience,the people who complain the most about wood prices are the same people
> that don't want to do the work themselves.



Completely disagree with this, at least from my point of view.  I'm extremely willing to go out and do the work to collect/process my own wood.  Being my first year though, I'm in a position where I would like to be able to buy seasoned wood and not take a line of credit to do so (lol).  

I was lucky and found a tree service selling wood that has been split/seasoned for 9 months.  Paid $175 for a cord and made 2 trips to pick up the wood myself.


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## okotoks guy (Dec 10, 2010)

When I lived in Northern Ontario,firewood was easy pickings. We could go out to the cottage 
this time of year and get at least 2 years worth of logs in a weekend;no problem. We would take
the snow machine to a few of the islands that were only 500 or so yards away and cut all we wanted.
I'm talking Sugar Maple,Yellow Birch,White Birch etc. We would have 1 falling and cutting to whatever 
length the sled could handle for weight and 1 guy chaining up the logs and dragging them back. If someone
back then wanted a cords' worth of rounds we would have probably traded for a case of beer! Man,how things
have changed now that I'm in Alberta.


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## project240 (Dec 10, 2010)

Haha so true.  As I said before, I'm very jealous hearing about some of the guys down south and all their readily available oak, ash, maple, etc.
My goal is to first build a large woodshed and collect about 10 cords this spring/summer from the arborist... maybe more if I can get....  At least then I know I'll have nothing to complain about.


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## okotoks guy (Dec 10, 2010)

project240 said:
			
		

> Haha so true.  As I said before, I'm very jealous hearing about some of the guys down south and all their readily available oak, ash, maple, etc.
> My goal is to first build a large woodshed and collect about 10 cords this spring/summer from the arborist... maybe more if I can get....  At least then I know I'll have nothing to complain about.



I sent a PM about some firewood you can come pick up for free if you want it.
Let me know if you got it.


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## krex1010 (Dec 10, 2010)

Here is something to think about for the folks complaining about the price of seasoned wood.  Cognac is another product that gets better with some aging, what costs more? A 3 year old cognac or a 20 year old cognac? The 20 year product is just sitting in a cellar doing nothing for that time, right? But the 20 year cognac is a superior product so it costs more, alot more. So why shouldn't wood that takes about 1.5 years to make cost more than wood that takes half a year to make.  The problem is that alot of people who want to heat with wood go into it thinking it will be a cheap way to heat, and that is a mistake. Ready to use heating fuel is costly. Whether it is gas or oil or firewood.  Heating with wood can be very cheap from a money standpoint but only if you put the time and effort to make your own wood, and that takes a major commitment of time and effort!  How much does it cost to buy a years worth of hearing oil or gas? It's alot of money! Firewood is a heating fuel too! Why would anyone expect to pay alot less for a years worth of wood?  I understand the frustration that some people have when they think they are going to beat the system and heat their house for peanuts and then they find out that buying firewood is not drastically cheaper than buying other fuels. But unfortunately the line of thinking that wood heat=cheap heat is flawed.


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## Mcbride (Dec 10, 2010)

krex1010 said:
			
		

> Here is something to think about for the folks complaining about the price of seasoned wood.  Cognac is another product that gets better with some aging, what costs more? A 3 year old cognac or a 20 year old cognac? The 20 year product is just sitting in a cellar doing nothing for that time, right? But the 20 year cognac is a superior product so it costs more, alot more. So why shouldn't wood that takes about 1.5 years to make cost more than wood that takes half a year to make.  The problem is that alot of people who want to heat with wood go into it thinking it will be a cheap way to heat, and that is a mistake. Ready to use heating fuel is costly. Whether it is gas or oil or firewood.  Heating with wood can be very cheap from a money standpoint but only if you put the time and effort to make your own wood, and that takes a major commitment of time and effort!  How much does it cost to buy a years worth of hearing oil or gas? It's alot of money! Firewood is a heating fuel too! Why would anyone expect to pay alot less for a years worth of wood?  I understand the frustration that some people have when they think they are going to beat the system and heat their house for peanuts and then they find out that buying firewood is not drastically cheaper than buying other fuels. But unfortunately the line of thinking that wood heat=cheap heat is flawed.



Well said krex.

What i find most interesting is the people that complain about the price of a liter of gas, but they will pay twice that for a liter of water, or 4 times as much for a little cup of some coffee or latte at starbucks.
I can make coffee at home for about 2% what a place like starbucks charges, and to fill and take my own water bottle from my house is free.

But if selling wood was really so lucrative, why would those that think this way, not start their own business selling wood, and make a fortune.

Someone asked why i paid $1,032 out the door price for my newer husqvarna saw. My reply was simple, quality costs money, and to me its worth it. I could have bought smaller, or lesser quality, but i chose to pay for the saw i really wanted instead.
When cutting with it, i have no doubt its worth every penny, as it starts easy, runs flawlessly, and cuts way faster than most of thesaws my friends and family have in comparison.
So it saves me time, energy, and frustration.


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## smokinj (Dec 10, 2010)

Mcbride said:
			
		

> krex1010 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



390 No one should get cold around You!


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## AKSHADOW (Dec 10, 2010)

It is tragically humorous that some find fault in others who are dissatisfied with a state of affairs that effects everyone - but mostly, it is disheartening. The attitude that some of the close-minded individuals on this forum who have replied is precisely the attitude we should be moving away from. "Buy it, move along, and quit yer bitchin," is not good enough for me. That is not what we should be about. Yeah I get it, everyone has their freedoms right? The seller has to make a living too right? If a buyer is too lazy to process their own wood is it not also lazy for the seller to put wet wood on the market instead of taking the time (and the responsibility) to make wood available that is not a danger to the wood burner and the environment? Let's be honest, I would say that the typical wood purchaser does not season the green wood they buy from dealers. I reiterate "typical". Of course there are those who are physically or logistically incapable of getting wood by their own means but for some reason have the luxury of being able to season purchased wood. Most buy wood to burn, they need it then and now. If they didn't, they would be taking the time to process it themselves. So yes, there is a relationship of responsibilty between the buyer and seller. Commonly, wet wood that is sold is also burnt in the same state it was sold in. I am sure there are all sorts of exceptions but I don't believe that the contrary is the case. While there isn't a quantifiable way to determine this, there will probably be others who plead the reverse incessantly. 

Also, there is an environmental responsibility to this issue that has not been addressed. The buy and sell circle of wet wood is adding to quite a large problem - air quality. In Fairbanks, we very poor air quality, to the point that breathing unfiltered air may be hazardous to your health. This is not due to overpopulation, or industrial negligence. Rather, it is due largely to our geographical location. Fairbanks is located in a valley, and thus because of our extreme temperatures (anywhere from -10 to -50) we a lot of ice fog. Ice fog is air pollutant that doesn't dissipate into the atmosphere like it normally would. It hangs around lower levels and causes poor air quality. The borough government has gone to an effort trying to attack one factor of this problem which is inefficient heating devices. They offer a rebate for people who switch out older non-EPA units for new EPA units. Unfortunately they do not address (but how could they) improper burning of wet wood. Obviously this is a regional issue so many in the lower 48 do not understand or care. But why should they right? It doesn't effect them, it must not matter. Check following link :http://co.fairbanks.ak.us/airquality/ 

Sure, the retort by the opposition will be, "Well then it's the buyers problem, they should season it." Maybe so, but as I have said, most need it then and now. Should we wait a year while our gasoline seasons at the gas pump before we drive? Of course the response to this is then, "wood burning is different, it is not for the person who needs instant gratification." The problem with this is that our entire society has evolved into one which thrives on instant gratification. Is this right? No, but it is the case.

krex1010, I applaud you for having as you put it, "a healthy debate". Others who say in more or less words, "quite whining...you whiner," should really learn that a proper debate is more constructive to the purpose of community, this forum, and our country's stability in general. Krex, you have almost won me over. All of your points seem to be valid, I  don't find fault in them. It is all but for one aspect that is not convinced. I don't think that most dealers just all of the sudden quit their jobs and have to sell wood on the spot to make money. Following this, it shouldn't be unrealistic for them to prepare their product stock before making it available to the public. If they simply prepared their stock before going into full swing, I propose that they would make more money in the end as more customers would want to purchase from them as well as being able to offer product that was, maybe not cheaper but at least the same price as wet wood does currently. If most dealers would follow this suit both ends of market would benefit. 

Is this proposal unreasonable? I don't believe so. It should also be understood that my qualm is not with the price of wood; it is that dry wood should cost the same as wet wood does, respective to current interior Alaskan prices. I hypothesize that if the wood dealing community took it upon themselves to realize that with a unified effort, they could offer a better product that would benefit both parties. All  without any upfront cost to themselves. Note that "upfront" means UPFRONT. I understand the logic of time=money. Yes, I went to grade school too. 

This is all theoretical, probably not practical. Reason being is that the entirety of the wood BURNING community would also have to take a hiatus from purchasing wood to accomplish what I have proposed. So as to my principles that I have stated - it is again a shared responsibility between buyer and seller. Of course, this kind of action would be incredibly difficult to pull off - near impossible. But, it is at least, enjoyable to myself to theorize about ways in which things could be better for all of us. Theory is the first step to change. However, I apologize to all of the "here and now" people who don't care about change. My glorified whining is obviously of no importance, and would be sooner welcomed to be extinguished.


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## Rockey (Dec 10, 2010)

I cannot for the life of me understand how you hold the seller(for selling wet wood) as equally or more responsible than the consumer for burning the wet wood. It is the onus of the  CONSUMER to use it responisibly.

Would you fault a market for selling fresh fish to a consumer that didnt properly prepare and cook his fish and got sick? If he ate it raw should the seller be held responsible. This bordering on ludicrous.

No one is being forced to buy wet wood. You have the option to buy it in advance and season it yourself, or process your own firewood, or heat with another source. This isnt rocket surgery


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## krex1010 (Dec 10, 2010)

AKShadow
I think you and I just have different opinions on this subject, which is fine.  Some people look at things realistically and some idealistically and even though people of each train of thought likely won't ever agree on certain things, the world needs both types of people to keep things in check.   And it's nice to have a good debate with someone that doesn't end up degenerating into insults and name calling.  I'll be looking for you in other threads brother, looking forward doing this again!  Stay warm up there.


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## Lumber-Jack (Dec 10, 2010)

Here is something else for AKshadow to think about. Storing firewood is no simple task, yes it JUST SITS THERE once all the work is done, but lets look at the math for a second. 
I don't know what AK's income is, but lets say he earns a modest $30,000 a year. Now for a firewood dealer to make a modest income like that how much firewood would he need to cut and store a year ahead? To earn $30,000 he would probably have to make an extra 1/3 of that for overhead, so lets round it out to $40,000 gross income. Lets say he is going to sell his wood for $200 per cord, how many cord will he have to cut and sit on for a year? 40,000 / 200 = 200. So that is 200 cords of wood he would have to cut and stack and wait for a whole year minimum (two years if its' oak) before he can see any profit from all that work. Think about how long it takes you (by yourself) to process a cord of wood and multiply that by 200. You can't figure any help into that because this equation only takes one persons income into account. 
But wait! All firewood dealers are greedy right? So none of them would be happy with a modest annual income of $30,000, these greedy  %^&$* would want to earn at least $50,000 a year. So 50,000 + 1/3 = $66,666 gross income. $66,666 / 200 = 333. So to earn $50,000 they would have to cut, split, and sit on 333 cords of wood for a year before seeing any income from it.

Just for some perspective, I process about 5 cord a year for personal use, in another 24 years I'll be 75, if I live that long I might process another 120 cords of firewood in the rest of my life.

The logistics of storing that amount of wood and having it JUST SIT THERE for a year are overwhelming. I doubt even Quads and Dennis, (and I'll throw Zapny in there), together have that much wood JUST SITTING AROUND.  Sure it can be done, but probably not by one person, you are probably going to need a crew and equipment and that means more overhead, and that means you are going to have to cut (and store) even more wood.

The long and the short of it is that it would cost money to store that much wood, the other fact is if a wood seller was to invest the time and money (and that's what it would take, an investment) into storing that much wood, the hope would be that he would see a larger return on that investment. That would mean charging more for seasoned wood than you would if you sold it green, and most "buyers" would not want to pay that extra money, they would either buy green wood from you at a reduced price, or if you refused to sell them green wood they would simply buy from someone else who would sell them green wood at a lower price. So this brings it back to the consumer driven market again, everybody wants the lowest price, and in the world of firewood this generally means buying green wood.
So what happens to your investment when no one wants to buy it at it's premium value???  I'll tell you what happens, it JUST SITS THERE!

Of course the math above is purely hypothetical, I have never sold firewood, but I can't be too far off with those figures. Any firewood dealers out there that feel like correcting my math feel free to do so.


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## Rockey (Dec 10, 2010)

You are correct in that we live in a quick fix "instant gratification" world. I'm not going to go into how we got this way, but its true. We do live in that world. Its how you see going about correcting this problem that is misguided. As a consumer you must realize that there are definite advantages and disadvantages to paying more for some pruducts. It usually boils down to quality. If I start a construction business and buy all my tools from Harbor Freight vs (Dewalt, Fein, Milwaukee, insert a quality namebrand) and expect the Harbor Freight tools to last as long with all else being equal then i would be crazy. The disadvantage is that it would cost more upfront. The advantage would be savings in the long run from projects finished on time, better quality, less frequent replacement and upkeep.

There is a reason why Harbor Freight (Chicago Electric) line is less expensive upfront. Its in the quality. Everyone wants a $28.00/hr but less and less people are willing to buy their tools/eqpt. etc from a manufacturer that pays $28.00/hr.

Wood is no different. There is a huge quality difference between wet wood and dry wood and it should be reflected in the price. You will never get me to believe that people in Alaska, thats right Alaska, dont know the difference in quality between wet wood and dry wood. IF you move from another state to Alaska and ask anyone which one burns better I bet 9 out of 10 people will give you the right answer. The people that continue to burn wet wood are the ones that are serious procrastinators they will always find the wet wood. They decided that they will make the wet wood work. Its not ignorance, just a bad decision.


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## JustWood (Dec 10, 2010)

[quote author="Carbon_Liberator" date="1292023544"]Here is something else for AKshadow to think about. Storing firewood is no simple task, yes it JUST SITS THERE once all the work is done, but lets look at the math for a second. 
I don't know what AK's income is, but lets say he earns a modest $30,000 a year. Now for a firewood dealer to make a modest income like that how much firewood would he need to cut and store a year ahead? To earn $30,000 he would probably have to make an extra 1/3 of that for overhead, so lets round it out to $40,000 gross income. Lets say he is going to sell his wood for $200 per cord, how many cord will he have to cut and sit on for a year? 40,000 / 200 = 200. So that is 200 cords of wood he would have to cut and stack at wait for a whole year minimum (two years if its' oak) before he can see any profit from all that work. Think about how long it takes you (by yourself) to process a cord of wood and multiply that by 200. You can't figure any help into that because this equation only takes one persons income into account. 
But wait! All firewood dealers are greedy right? So none of them would be happy with a modest annual income of $30,000, these greedy  %^&$* would want to earn at least $50,000 a year. So 50,000 + 1/3 = $66,666 gross income. $66,666 / 200 = 333. So to earn $50,000 they would have to cut, split, and sit on 333 cords of wood for a year before seeing any income from it.

Just for some perspective, I process about 5 cord a year for personal use, in another 24 years I'll be 75, if I live that long I might process another 120 cords of firewood in the rest of my life.

The logistics of storing that amount of wood and having it JUST SIT THERE for a year are overwhelming. I doubt even Quads and Dennis, (and I'll throw Zapny in there), together have that much wood JUST SITTING AROUND.  Sure it can be done, but probably not by one person, you are probably going to need a crew and equipment and that means more overhead, and that means you are going to have to cut (and store) even more wood.

The long and the short of it is that it would cost money to store that much wood, the other fact is if a wood seller was to invest the time and money (and that's what it would take, an investment) into storing that much wood, the hope would be that he would see a larger return on that investment. That would mean charging more for seasoned wood than you would if you sold it green, and most "buyers" would not want to pay that extra money, they would either buy green wood from you at a reduced price, or if you refused to sell them green wood they would simply buy from someone else who would sell them green wood at a lower price. So this brings it back to the consumer driven market again, everybody wants the lowest price, and in the world of firewood this generally means buying green wood.
So what happens to your investment when no one wants to buy it at it's premium value???  I'll tell you what happens, it JUST SITS THERE!

Of course the math above is purely hypothetical, I have never sold firewood, but I can't be too far off with those figures. Any firewood dealers out there that feel like correcting my math feel free to do so.[/quote

Did said firewood dude get his wood for free or did he pay for it. 
Wood take alot of acreage to work up 333 cord yearly.


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## Jags (Dec 10, 2010)

"If they simply prepared their stock before going into full swing, I propose that they would make more money in the end as more customers would want to purchase from them as well as being able to offer product that was, maybe not cheaper but at least the same price as wet wood does currently."

Storing wood has a cost associated - these costs need to be reflected in the price of the product - simple business logic. Therefore - logically - dry wood is worth more than green.  It is no more the duty of the seller to provide dry wood, than it is the user to assure he/she is using dry wood.  If you want to use the logic of the seller storing it - I will apply the same logic to the USER storing it to assure the quality. Holding the seller to a higher level of responsibility than the end user of the product is the same logic that brings us luke warm coffee from the drive through at McD's or lawsuits from the operator of a chainsaw that cut himself because he stumbled.

Now misrepresentation is a whole different thing....


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## krex1010 (Dec 10, 2010)

Akshadow
I do want to address you statement about the wood dealing " community". There is no wood dealing community, this is not an organized industry, there are no trade shows or industry conferences for firewood dealers where this issue can be discussed.  From what I have seen the vast majority of firewood dealers do it as a side gig to there normal jobs, usually they are landscapers or tree guys or have logging businesses.  They split wood when business is slow, when the weather is preventing them from working or on nights or weekends.  Most of these guys work in true feast or famine businesses so they know they have to make money when they can, because they know that a slow period in their work can happen at any time. For people to expect them to turn down offers to buy their green wood is unfair in my opinion.  Even if they may be able to charge more for seasoned wood next year there is no garuntee that that customer will be there next year.  A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. I disagree that wet wood is a danger to anyone, I have a bunch of it in my yard, it's not hurting anyone.  Now burning wet wood, that can present problems (chimney fires, air pollution etc) but I really, truly believe that the blame for those problem lies with the person who is putting a match to the wet wood.  Just like I think if someone is shot the blame lies with the triggerman not smith and wesson, if someone drinks 10 beers and kills someone in a car accident the blame is on the guy behind the wheel not budweiser. There are thousands of products that can be used in an irresponsible manner should they all be prevented from being sold? Most cars are capable of speeds well above the speed limit, should we expect ford and chevy to put governors on their products to limit speed? The sale of green wood allows savvy people to plan ahead and buy firewood at a cheaper price so they can save money, and let's dealers make money on the deal too.  What's wrong with that? I just really believe that as wood burners it is our own personal responsibility to sure we have good fuel, safe stoves and good burning practices.  I just will not agree with you that if I don't have seasoned wood to burn then it's Joey logsplitter's fault and not my own.


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## Mcbride (Dec 10, 2010)

It would be a lot easier for someone that buys wood, instead of getting their own, to buy what they need, and store it for a year to dry. Than for a wood seller to have to store many hundreds of chords of wood.
I have had people think myself, nad my Dad insane due to the amount of wood we both have at our respective homes.
And yet the measly amount I have is nothing compared to what a dealer would have to store.
I am taking a guess that i maybe have 25 to 28 chords cut. My Dad varies year to year from 20 to 30 chords cut and stacked.
I just buck mine to length, and dump it on the pile with my skidsteer loader. I am fortunate that when I bought here the  place had a huge old barn for me to pile wood in, as i have no other use for it, and its in bad shape, but the roof does not leak.
Its piled up whole, not split. But it dries good enough after a few years, and its easier splitting then.
So i scoop out what i want with the bobcat, and take it to the chopping block.

No way would i want to have to fall, buck, haul, split, and stack 300 to say 800 chords, and then leave it sit for a year to sell it for money.
And whom here has the covered storage at their place for 300 plus chords of wood. Actually needing to always be ahead, you would have to have storage for 600 chords if you sell 300 a year.
I talked to a guy that sold 500 to 700 chords a year, depending.
He is honest, and says its mixed wood, and you get what you get. Furthermore its been sitting a maximum of 4 months.  He does not lie and say its fully seasoned, or pretend to sell only birch or some other very desireable species.
He sells every every piece he has every year, and most are repeat customers.
I admire him, as no way i want to process and store that much wood each year.

I plan to build the new place with a bigger outdoor boiler,  as no carrying it inside, and no need to split it unless its too big to fit the firebox. and a portage & main ML42 has a big firebox.
Yeeha even lesswork soon.


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## AKSHADOW (Dec 11, 2010)

I do appreciate the more logical responses from everyone - it's nice to know that we can have this debate civilly. A lot of points to respond to sooo, I will do my best.

- I agree that storing wood at buyers location is easier logistically than at the sellers location, good point

- The wood dealing community is intended as a looser term than taken. I use it as tool to "collect" said dealers into a general statement. As was pointed out, most are doing it as a side gig, so it is not their 
   sole means of income. So wouldn't it be easier for them to sit on wood to season since they are not wholly dependant on wood to pay the bills? 

- I disagree that I am holding the seller to higher responsiblity than the buyer. But I will say that if a seller is going to sell wet wood, I think it SHOULD be their responsiblity as a good business practice to 
  inform the users who may not have as much knowledge about the properties of wood burning as others. This would make a more personal relationship between buyer and seller. Buyer would appreciate
  this intimacy and seller would benefit by having more confident and frequent purchasers.

- Back to the price. Well, I guess there's no fix to this. I must say this is the weakest point I have. Maybe it's just simple dissatisfaction. But I feel like the current going rate of wet interior alaskan wood (not 
  split, just bucked) is not on par with what it should be. I would liken it to the price of diesel up here. It is more expensive than any grade of gasoline. Yet, it is the first thing to come off when petroleum is 
  refined. Also - there are more gas users in the state than diesel users so...it doesn't make sense to me. The refineries up here are barely refining gasoline, we have to get most of our supply shipped up to us while the majority of Alaskan refinement goes to diesel fuels and jet fuel. But I suppose this is a little off track. 

- All of this goes back to the fact that in the original CL posting the seller was speaking of wet wood like it had some benefit to burning. I think that we all know that there is no reason why one should have to burn wet wood to: get more "economy" out of the wood, slow things down, make the fire last longer, etc.. All of these concepts can be achieved through safer means by properly operating a stove that is in good condition. The seller should have explained on his ad the whole truth. What he was advertising was a partial truth - he left out very pertinent information that completely changes the overall sense and meaning of his "wet wood". So he should have explained, or said nothing at all. A partial truth can be potentially more dangerous than no information at all.

Anyways, I think I've beat my dead horse enough. Obviously what I have been writing about has holes and flaws, but that's how we get places, by debating in a dialectic process. Kudos to those who have offered up thoughtful and mature points. Krex-happy trails, see you between the lines!


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## smokinj (Dec 11, 2010)

AKSHADOW said:
			
		

> I do appreciate the more logical responses from everyone - it's nice to know that we can have this debate civilly. A lot of points to respond to sooo, I will do my best.
> 
> - I agree that storing wood at buyers location is easier logistically than at the sellers location, good point
> 
> ...




Its even harder for the small guy to set on inventory....Cost money to move wood setting there is no issue moving it is. I will only sell to a few people who know me or have sold to them before. Just cant stand people trying to hangle over price and how much they are getting. Heck its stack in Rowe's nothing to hide there, but people love to argue the point nether the less. I still have people knocking on my door I just tell them its not for sale. This is with anything thats for sale though.


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