# A Little Heads Up On Wall Outlets



## BrotherBart (Jan 14, 2015)

For a long time I have known that when I have an oil filled space heater running on "medium" in the family room two of the other outlets on the circuit in the room get warm. Thought it was normal. Last night I was doing the annual test of heating with just the oil filleds in the house on a cold night. 

I walked over to those two outlets and they were HOT. I grabbed the IR thermo and one of them was 107 degrees. This is an outlet on an outside wall on a 20 degree night. I unplugged the heater from the other outlet on the circuit. 30 minutes later the suspicious outlet was still at a hundred degrees. I popped the breaker on the circuit and contemplated a bit and went to bed. 

This morning I pulled the hottest outlet. It was a "backstabbed" install where the wires are punched down into the back rather that attached with the screws on the sides. As obviously all of the outlets in the place are. A little visit to Google produced the info that the things are notorious for overheating and causing fires due to poor connections. I replaced that outlet and now it has been 55 degrees all day.

A good idea would be to use that IR gun that is so much fun to use to check the wood stove temp to check the outlets in your house. These were installed 30 years ago this month and heaven only knows how long that one has been getting ready to make us homeless.


----------



## seige101 (Jan 14, 2015)

Great advice BrotherBart! I think backstabbing is hack and they should make a code change to outlaw it. Making a fish hook connection on the screws is great. The best way is to make a proper pig tail of all the wires in the box and a small tail leading to the device it self.


----------



## Warm_in_NH (Jan 14, 2015)

Glad all turned out okay.

+1 to seige101 as well.


----------



## heat seeker (Jan 14, 2015)

Great heads-up!

Those back stabber connections have very little contact area and even less contact pressure, thus heat up and corrode, which makes the situation even worse. The screw connections give the most contact area with great contact force. I won't use the backstabbers ever.


----------



## fbelec (Jan 14, 2015)

way to go bb. i get calls about the same thing or that some outlets are not working at all. the worst ones are the old leviton brand. when they keep getting hot cold hot cold the plastic face just breaks off and leaves the prongs showing for a good scare. if you haven't done it already redo the rest in your house. sometimes when i get there on a call for no power the wire has melted the insulation off and has gotten the copper so hot it is discolored at the least and breaks the moment i pull the outlet out of the box. the metal box usually grounds it out for a blown fuse or breaker but if you have plastic boxes it's a race on if the wire melts itself to the ground wire for the short or the glowing wire touches the wood stud. i fired a guy for using backstabs.

frank


----------



## BrotherBart (Jan 14, 2015)

Yep. These are Levitons. Got a lot of work to do now. Starting with the dead outlet upstairs.


----------



## BrotherBart (Jan 14, 2015)

fbelec said:


> way to go bb. i get calls about the same thing or that some outlets are not working at all. the worst ones are the old leviton brand. when they keep getting hot cold hot cold the plastic face just breaks off and leaves the prongs showing for a good scare. if you haven't done it already redo the rest in your house. sometimes when i get there on a call for no power the wire has melted the insulation off and has gotten the copper so hot it is discolored at the least and breaks the moment i pull the outlet out of the box. the metal box usually grounds it out for a blown fuse or breaker but if you have plastic boxes it's a race on if the wire melts itself to the ground wire for the short or the glowing wire touches the wood stud. i fired a guy for using backstabs.
> 
> frank



Will it be OK to just unstab'em and use the screws on the old outlets?


----------



## seige101 (Jan 14, 2015)

I would not bother trying to use them. If they are that old the tabs that grab the prongs on whatever you plug in are probably starting to show their age and not grab a plug with as good of a connection anymore. New ones are only $.50 each why take the risk?


----------



## BrotherBart (Jan 14, 2015)

Most have never had anything plugged into them. But I will go new while I am at it. Though I don't get'em for fifty cents like the pros do.

Thanks.

The only thing I know about electricity is to not lick the wires.


----------



## Rossco (Jan 14, 2015)

What's a 'Backstabbed' connection like?


----------



## BrotherBart (Jan 14, 2015)

There are holes in the back of the outlet. You push down a tab through a hole and then push the wire in and let go and it gets clamped. Gotta be fast for installing a house full of outlets during construction rather than bending wire and tightening screws.


----------



## TMonter (Jan 14, 2015)

That is one of the first things I did with our house when we purchased it was replace all the back-wired outlets with cooper units that use the newer pinch type screw connections that are really easy to wire.

I'd also recommend one of these to test to make sure your outlets are wired and grounded properly. Never hurts to check.

http://www.homedepot.com/s/outlet%20tester?NCNI-5

I've had the cheap Klein one for 10+ years and it's still kicking.


----------



## Rossco (Jan 14, 2015)

BrotherBart said:


> There are holes in the back of the outlet. You push down a tab through a hole and then push the wire in and let go and it gets clamped. Gotta be fast for installing a house full of outlets during construction rather than bending wire and tightening screws.



Yeah for sure. I erm 'Googled' it just after I posted 

Looked like a good idea for around 30 seconds until I seen pictures of burnt receptacles.







Awesome.

I recently replaced a few sockets in the kids rooms with Giffys. Didnt seen and backstabbers.


----------



## TMonter (Jan 14, 2015)

seige101 said:


> Great advice BrotherBart! I think backstabbing is hack and they should make a code change to outlaw it. Making a fish hook connection on the screws is great. The best way is to make a proper pig tail of all the wires in the box and a small tail leading to the device it self.



What is the benefit of a pigtail over wiring directly into the receptacle? Is there a specific instance where this should be used?


----------



## seige101 (Jan 15, 2015)

TMonter said:


> What is the benefit of a pigtail over wiring directly into the receptacle? Is there a specific instance where this should be used?



You are relying on the little scored metal tab on the receptacle to handle all the current in the circuit. Pretty much all outlets are daisy chained so the current or load passes through each outlet on the circuit. You can kinda see what i am talking about in this picture 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You see the little brass tab between the screws. It's designed so you can essentially split the outlet in 2. Either to use 2 different circuits on the outlet or to switch half the outlet.


----------



## moey (Jan 15, 2015)

Be glad you didnt have it running on 1500w..


----------



## firefighterjake (Jan 15, 2015)

I cannot think of a single electrician that I have spoken to that has ever thought the backstabbed connections is a good idea on new or renovation projects . . . not with their reputation and liability issues on the line.


----------



## Warm_in_NH (Jan 15, 2015)

Black to gold.
Get a good pair of something (I have a pair of needle nose pliers that work perfectly) to put the fish hook bend on the wire with. 
Otherwise you'll be loosing patience before you get to the second one.


----------



## firefighterjake (Jan 15, 2015)

*Black Gold* is a good thing.
The Lone Ranger wore *White *and rode *Silver*.


----------



## spirilis (Jan 15, 2015)

Wow, definitely the first time I've heard of concrete evidence for not using them.  (I never use them, but found a couple outlets in my house with them...)
I can't imagine anything would go bad with just moving the wires over to the screw terminals.  Maybe sand the copper a tad in case there's oxidation on the wires.


----------



## Warm_in_NH (Jan 15, 2015)

They're cheap, they handle electricity,  they can and will fail eventually,  when they fail it can be problematic,  if you've got to disconnect and reconnect everything it only makes sense to replace them while you're at it.
Had a 4 year old GFI in my kitchen "fail" this summer while the vacuum was plugged into an outlet downstream of it. Sounded like a transformer shorting out, I heard the buzz of the electricity over the sound of the vacuum right before it went "bang" and emitted a puff of stinky smoke.


----------



## heat seeker (Jan 15, 2015)

*B*lack to *B*rass, *G*reen to *G*round.


----------



## Highbeam (Jan 15, 2015)

There is another option not yet mentioned that is more expensive than the backstab or the sidewire. It's a backwire outlet. Usually the medium price outlets. I think they are superior to the hook and screw because you don't have to worry about proper hooking without insulation under the screw. How they work is you shove the straight, stripped wire into the back of the outlet and then tighten the sidescrew which clamps down on the wire. It's a big clamp not unlike the method used to hold the wire to the circuit breaker at the panel.

I first ran into these with GFCI outlets and loved the concept. Way more foolproof than the sidehook or the backstab.


----------



## Highbeam (Jan 15, 2015)

Here's some photos. They are not 5$ per outlet. You can buy them bulk at home depot. I find that the plug is less distorted than when I use a sidewire and tighten the hell out of the screws.

http://www.handymanhowto.com/electrical-outlets-side-wire-versus-back-wire/


----------



## Ncountry (Jan 15, 2015)

Absolutely, what Highbeam said.. You will thank him for the advice later .. For me as a builder I find it worth the extra $ for the backwired ones (screw and clamp type). A lot easier(quicker) than messing with curling the wires around etc... This is especially true in a box that has already been wired. Often there is not a lot of extra wire to work with...


----------



## TMonter (Jan 15, 2015)

Highbeam said:


> Here's some photos. They are not 5$ per outlet. You can buy them bulk at home depot. I find that the plug is less distorted than when I use a sidewire and tighten the hell out of the screws.
> 
> http://www.handymanhowto.com/electrical-outlets-side-wire-versus-back-wire/



I used the cooper equivalents through my house on the heavily used plugs and the standard plugs through the rest of the house and wrapped the wires around the screw posts. Cooper uses a similar screw clamping system on their commercial grade plugs.


----------



## Highbeam (Jan 15, 2015)

Does anybody dare bring up the TR plug issue?


----------



## Ncountry (Jan 15, 2015)

Highbeam said:


> Does anybody dare bring up the TR plug issue?




They suck


----------



## Warm_in_NH (Jan 15, 2015)

Highbeam said:


> Does anybody dare bring up the TR plug issue?



Argh. Hate em. If BB is changing them all out then technically I would say it's an electrical remodel and he should use them. Yes, no?

However, if he puts in all new TR (tamper resistant) plugs, he'll be so pissed at them in a month he'll be swapping them out again with regular ones.


----------



## Highbeam (Jan 15, 2015)

Code requires them in the residence. No allowance for how many, it's just "all". Fortunately, you can still buy non-TR plugs. If you really want to get down to it, even changing an outlet requires an electrical permit which is when they are supposed to catch these things.


----------



## begreen (Jan 15, 2015)

I've never liked backstabbers for a connection. Never trusted them, especially for a high load circuit which are most if you consider the amperage a good vacuum puts on the circuit. I don't have a problem however with switching a rarely used outlet from the backstabbers to the side screws.


----------



## bsruther (Jan 15, 2015)

What about the stabber wire connectors, has anyone found those to be unreliable as well?


----------



## Highbeam (Jan 16, 2015)

Those are called wagos. I've only ever used them in can lights because they come pre-installed on the stranded wires. Really convenient and feel secure in this low load application.

I use tan wirenuts for connecting wires.


----------



## fbelec (Jan 17, 2015)

i never use those wagos. same idea as outlets. cut them off and tan wirenut them. bb your house will be grandfathered in the code on tamper proof so they are not required in your house unless you install a new outlet.( wire and box ) the older leviton outlets the plastic breaks when plugging in or pulling out so it's up to you whether you change them out. since you are going to do the work of pulling and installing to rewire the outlets anyway you might as well change it also lowes or home depot has the non tamper resistant outlets cheap. when i said your house is grandfathered in about tamper resistant i meant if you sell your house you are not required to have them. the tamper resistant outlets especially the gfi outlets are a fat pain to plug something in the first half dozen times then they get better. stupid code as far as i'am concerned. the plastic pieces that you manually put in for babys are tuff for a adult to pull out never mind a kid. .50 cents verses almost 3 dollars each that should be left up to the home owner and not the code book. but like with the back stabs on a outlet there is plenty of proof out there that their use is a hazard it won't get changed because that is what the big companies want so they get. when pulling out the wires that are stuck into a backstab no need to try to use a third hand to stick in the hole to release the wire just hold the wire and twist back and forth while pulling the wire and it usually comes out. the worn one might even come out when you pull the outlet out of the box.


----------



## Hogwildz (Jan 17, 2015)

Don't forget to use 20 amp outlets for 20 amp circuits. Everything I seen posted is for 15 amps. 20 amps have the little T on 1  plug slot top & bottom.
15 amp outlets on a 20 amp circuit can cause a fire if overheated.
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...Q-7VOa_Foj5yQT2pYBw&tbm=isch&ved=0CDoQMygKMAo


----------



## BrotherBart (Jan 17, 2015)

Every 20 amp circuit in this house has 15 amp outlets. 

The salvation being that a 20 amp plug won't fit.


----------



## fbelec (Jan 18, 2015)

by code as long as there is two or more outlets on the 20 amp circuit the outlet can be a 15 amp outlet. that is never a issue but a 15 amp outlet by itself on a 20 amp circuit is a no no. even 15 amp gfi outlets have a 20 amp pass thru.


----------



## begreen (Jan 19, 2015)

bsruther said:


> What about the stabber wire connectors, has anyone found those to be unreliable as well?


Both wagos and backstabbers on outlets concern me when there is a downstream load possibility. If there are no daisy-chained receptacles following or other downstream circuits, then the risk of overheating is lower. Personally I prefer a solid mechanical connection that maximizes wire to wire or wire to screw surface contact. It takes a minute or two longer, but long-term peace of mind is worth it.


----------



## sportbikerider78 (Jan 30, 2015)

Highbeam said:


> There is another option not yet mentioned that is more expensive than the backstab or the sidewire. It's a backwire outlet. Usually the medium price outlets. I think they are superior to the hook and screw because you don't have to worry about proper hooking without insulation under the screw. How they work is you shove the straight, stripped wire into the back of the outlet and then tighten the sidescrew which clamps down on the wire. It's a big clamp not unlike the method used to hold the wire to the circuit breaker at the panel.
> 
> I first ran into these with GFCI outlets and loved the concept. Way more foolproof than the sidehook or the backstab.



I love this type.  They are great.


----------



## seige101 (Jan 30, 2015)

Found in an office at work yesterday. 2 Space heaters, lights and 4 computers were downstream of the circuit.
Changed several receptacles raised the thermostat in the building 2 degrees and my boss sent out an e-mail no more space heaters, if any are found next week the cords will be cut off.



As you can see pretty bad, probably just caught it before it started a fire.


----------



## begreen (Jan 30, 2015)

Lucky save. Did someone smell the insulation burning?


----------



## seige101 (Jan 30, 2015)

No the call over the radio was circuits not working. The rooms the panels are in are locked only us maintenance electricians have keys to them. These are in some crappy 30 year old 'temporary' office trailer setups. Old #14 romex on 15 amp breakers.


----------



## fbelec (Jan 30, 2015)

seige101 said:


> Found in an office at work yesterday. 2 Space heaters, lights and 4 computers were downstream of the circuit.
> Changed several receptacles raised the thermostat in the building 2 degrees and my boss sent out an e-mail no more space heaters, if any are found next week the cords will be cut off.
> View attachment 152112
> 
> As you can see pretty bad, probably just caught it before it started a fire.



nice find. yet the code and UL still let these companies that make these type of receptacles keep on making them and the fix is a 45 to 50 dollar arc fault breaker. and we have the install these breakers by code. makes me think about who is running the UL and the code book.


----------



## fbelec (Jan 30, 2015)

the copper showing is junk


----------



## seige101 (Jan 31, 2015)

fbelec said:


> the copper showing is junk


Yes it was. There was barely any wire in the box. We ended up moving the outlet over slightly and running a new wire to the outlet on the other side of the wall. That was the only way to get to good copper


----------



## fbelec (Feb 7, 2015)

nice job. i hate when someone does the repair with a wirenut and 2 inches of wire and a lot of hope


----------



## Bret Chase (Feb 8, 2015)

Highbeam said:


> Code requires them in the residence. No allowance for how many, it's just "all". Fortunately, you can still buy non-TR plugs. If you really want to get down to it, even changing an outlet requires an electrical permit which is when they are supposed to catch these things.



must be a state by state thing.  In my state (Maine) A homeowner can more or less do what ever he/she wants electrically in their *primary* abode.  This has been confirmed by both my local CEO... and the state electrical inspector.  The only times a permit *has* to be pulled is when the service is changed out.... or you pay an electrician to do the work.

The risk is... you burn your house down... you're on your own.

I told the both of them that was pretty dumb... they agreed... but its what the rules are here.

new construction, yes you're stuck with them.

That being said, I greatly dislike any type of stab connector... though they seem to work alright in 24v control circuits.
I despise TR plugs and arc-fault breakers.  I have heard many stories from my electrician friends that CMP's smart meters have been tripping one particular brand..

I won't back stab anything.

I have been slowly rewiring my house... getting rid of the last of the fabric romex...I do know what I'm doing. but I will not put in TR plugs.... or AF breakers.


----------



## moey (Feb 8, 2015)

Bret Chase said:


> must be a state by state thing.  In my state (Maine) A homeowner can more or less do what ever he/she wants electrically in their *primary* abode.  This has been confirmed by both my local CEO... and the state electrical inspector.  The only times a permit *has* to be pulled is when the service is changed out.... or you pay an electrician to do the work.



Theres very few electrical inspectors in Maine good or bad I don't know. I put a new sub panel in I remember almost the same conversation your describing. Except for plumbing in my town you need few permits for a already built house.


----------



## Bret Chase (Feb 8, 2015)

moey said:


> Theres very few electrical inspectors in Maine good or bad I don't know. I put a new sub panel in I remember almost the same conversation your describing. Except for plumbing in my town you need few permits for a already built house.



Well.... there's not many wiring related electrical fires reported each year.... so.....

my neighbor's house (1850) burnt down because of malfunctioning heat tape on its pipes... that was a loooooong night.... and proof my house isnt smoke proof,


----------



## sportbikerider78 (Feb 9, 2015)

Once you do some plumbing yourself, you can't believe that you would ever need someone to come out and do it to maintain code.  lol

I replaced 50% of the plumbing in my entire house (pex conversion) in about 20 hrs, by myself.


----------



## Highbeam (Feb 9, 2015)

sportbikerider78 said:


> Once you do some plumbing yourself, you can't believe that you would ever need someone to come out and do it to maintain code.  lol
> 
> I replaced 50% of the plumbing in my entire house (pex conversion) in about 20 hrs, by myself.


 
Me too. Once you learn pex it is hard to imagine the need for a plumber. I'm replacing and moving my water heater right now. Replacing the 1/2" copper connections with modern 3/4" pex, real valves, an expansion tank, earthquake strapping, drain pan, and I'll even connect the PRV to something.


----------



## Bret Chase (Feb 9, 2015)

sportbikerider78 said:


> Once you do some plumbing yourself, you can't believe that you would ever need someone to come out and do it to maintain code.  lol
> 
> I replaced 50% of the plumbing in my entire house (pex conversion) in about 20 hrs, by myself.



the plumbing code emphasis is much more on drains and venting than on the pressurized potable water supply.

pex is great stuff... I will give you that. orders of magnitude easier and faster than copper.  (I wont even acknowledge CPVC as a potable water material)


----------



## Bret Chase (Feb 9, 2015)

Highbeam said:


> Me too. Once you learn pex it is hard to imagine the need for a plumber. I'm replacing and moving my water heater right now. Replacing the 1/2" copper connections with modern 3/4" pex, real valves, an expansion tank, earthquake strapping, drain pan, and I'll even connect the PRV to something.



The T&P valve *can not* be connected to anything.  it needs to have a pipe leading from it that is the same size as the valve... and there must be a 6" airgap from any sanitary drain to prevent any grey or black water from a backed up drain pipe from being pushed into the potable water supply.


----------



## Highbeam (Feb 9, 2015)

Bret Chase said:


> The T&P valve *can not* be connected to anything.  it needs to have a pipe leading from it that is the same size as the valve... and there must be a 6" airgap from any sanitary drain to prevent any grey or black water from a backed up drain pipe from being pushed into the potable water supply.


 
Uh yes, as you said, the PRV valve will be connected to a tube that ends within 6" of the floor or outside grade. Currently it just sprays you in the face.


----------



## brian89gp (Feb 9, 2015)

sportbikerider78 said:


> Once you do some plumbing yourself, you can't believe that you would ever need someone to come out and do it to maintain code.  lol
> 
> I replaced 50% of the plumbing in my entire house (pex conversion) in about 20 hrs, by myself.



Water supply isn't the difficult part, drain piping and the associated venting (to do it properly) is.  PEX has definitely made it much easier.


----------



## sportbikerider78 (Feb 9, 2015)

This is true.  I'll be tackling that next with a toilet relocation during a bathroom remodel.  

The Sharkbite fittings with valves built into them are fantastic for hot water heater installs.  5 mins, max.


----------



## Bret Chase (Feb 9, 2015)

sportbikerider78 said:


> This is true.  I'll be tackling that next with a toilet relocation during a bathroom remodel.
> 
> The Sharkbite fittings with valves built into them are fantastic for hot water heater installs.  5 mins, max.



shark bites are soooooo expensive.  you can either buy 10 fittings... or take the same money and buy a pex crimper... either the swaged ring style.... or the SS pinch clips.  I use the pinch clips.... I haven't had a failure yet with them.


----------



## ironpony (Feb 10, 2015)

back to outlets, when you consider there  are billions of outlets out there, with multi billion connections, failures are non existent. the several examples listed previously were abused, overloaded outlets, users fault. how many were incorrectly installed?? DIYers? probably the safest system in a house, electrical, as long as it is done correctly. user error = bad product not really
I hold licenses in several trades/fields and 9 out of 10 times the failure is self inflicted. common statement, I did it myself, and saved xx dollars over hiring a qualified person, now you are paying me to fix it.


----------



## sportbikerider78 (Feb 10, 2015)

ironpony said:


> back to outlets, when you consider there  are billions of outlets out there, with multi billion connections, failures are non existent. the several examples listed previously were abused, overloaded outlets, users fault. how many were incorrectly installed?? DIYers? probably the safest system in a house, electrical, as long as it is done correctly. user error = bad product not really
> I hold licenses in several trades/fields and 9 out of 10 times the failure is self inflicted. common statement, I did it myself, and saved xx dollars over hiring a qualified person, now you are paying me to fix it.



That is probally true.  At the same time, I can't tell you how many tens of thousands of dollars I have spent fixing the work of so-called 'professionals'.  I'm just a mechanical engineer with absolutely zero background in home construction.  However, I can figure out how to fix almost anything with the right research and getting the right advice.  If the 'professionals' did it right the first time, homeowners wouldn't know squat about wiring, plumbing, irrigation, siding, flashing, lighting, insulation...ect.

When people say, "go get and expert opinion"...I laugh.   You have to really dig to find experts these days and most professionals are just hacks trying to get the job done as quickly as possible with zero concern for the home owner or respect for their trade.

When I lack the right equipment to get a job done, I get many quotes and really drill into the details of how they would approach a project.  If they are all wildly different, I then assume they are all hacks and approach the project from a different angle.


----------



## brian89gp (Feb 10, 2015)

sportbikerider78 said:


> This is true. I'll be tackling that next with a toilet relocation during a bathroom remodel.
> The Sharkbite fittings with valves built into them are fantastic for hot water heater installs. 5 mins, max.



At least with UPC code, no plastic allowed within 18" of any water heater or 6" of a flue.


----------



## brian89gp (Feb 10, 2015)

sportbikerider78 said:


> That is probally true. At the same time, I can't tell you how many tens of thousands of dollars I have spent fixing the work of so-called 'professionals'. I'm just a mechanical engineer with absolutely zero background in home construction. However, I can figure out how to fix almost anything with the right research and getting the right advice. If the 'professionals' did it right the first time, homeowners wouldn't know squat about wiring, plumbing, irrigation, siding, flashing, lighting, insulation...ect.



Found my fair share of hacks as well but attributed it to the "you get what you pay for" saying.  They are almost always the cheapest, once I upped my price range I had no trouble getting quality work.


----------



## ironpony (Feb 11, 2015)

When people say, "go get and expert opinion"...I laugh.   You have to really dig to find experts these days and *most professionals are just hacks* trying to get the job done as quickly as possible with zero concern for the home owner or respect for their trade.




So, are you including engineers as professionals? or just lowly tradesman?  Just curious as I am a PE, besides being licensed in several trades pertaining to my field of work.

edit. you do realize most of this sites members are professionals, tradesmen.


----------



## Highbeam (Feb 11, 2015)

brian89gp said:


> At least with UPC code, no plastic allowed within 18" of any water heater or 6" of a flue.




That does not include the seals, just the pipe. For instance, Teflon tape on the pipe threads, or the rubber washers on the metal flex hoses. I will not use those shark bite flex lines at the water heater. It's just too harsh of a location. The stainless steel flex lines, not braided but actual metal, are awesome.



ironpony said:


> When people say, "go get and expert opinion"...I laugh.   You have to really dig to find experts these days and *most professionals are just hacks* trying to get the job done as quickly as possible with zero concern for the home owner or respect for their trade.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



After a while you learn that general statements as the one you underlined are just going to tick people off. Some professionals are hacks and some are freaking awesome. You DON'T always get what you pay for so you need to hire only the awesome ones. Win some and lose some.


----------



## sportbikerider78 (Feb 11, 2015)

ironpony said:


> When people say, "go get and expert opinion"...I laugh.   You have to really dig to find experts these days and *most professionals are just hacks* trying to get the job done as quickly as possible with zero concern for the home owner or respect for their trade.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My statement is not inflammatory or insulting in any way to people who take pride in what they do and do a good job.  If someone is a hack, they should take offense..and do us all a favor and find another line of work.  

In all of my conversations with people who take pride in their trade, I find them to be the most offended at shoddy work because it casts a shadow on all who practice that trade.


----------



## ironpony (Feb 11, 2015)

Highbeam said:


> That does not include the seals, just the pipe. For instance, Teflon tape on the pipe threads, or the rubber washers on the metal flex hoses. I will not use those shark bite flex lines at the water heater. It's just too harsh of a location. The stainless steel flex lines, not braided but actual metal, are awesome.
> 
> 
> 
> After a while you learn that general statements as the one you underlined are just going to tick people off. Some professionals are hacks and some are freaking awesome. You DON'T always get what you pay for so you need to hire only the awesome ones. Win some and lose some.






Highbeam, that was a quote from another member in the post above, not mine. I was responding to their statement. I guess when I edited it, it dropped the quotes.


----------



## fbelec (Feb 14, 2015)

ironpony said:


> back to outlets, when you consider there  are billions of outlets out there, with multi billion connections, failures are non existent. the several examples listed previously were abused, overloaded outlets, users fault. how many were incorrectly installed?? DIYers? probably the safest system in a house, electrical, as long as it is done correctly. user error = bad product not really
> I hold licenses in several trades/fields and 9 out of 10 times the failure is self inflicted. common statement, I did it myself, and saved xx dollars over hiring a qualified person, now you are paying me to fix it.


 
and part of those i would say the majority of outlets are wired right using the side screw. that doesn't make those backstab outlets good because of few failures. anyone that has ever troubleshot a half of a circuit or the single outlet that is not working usually finds it backstabbed. and the ones that do fail have nothing to do with how it was installed. strip the wire and push it in and the only reason they failed is someone plugged in a 12 amp vacuum into it and over time the normal load made it fail. this shows me the companies out there making them are not testing them for the long run but the look it works and it is easy to install. buy our outlet and save money on labor. oh and overloaded would be 16 amps on a 15 amp circuit. one 12 amp appliance or 12 1 amp appliances = 12 amps. not overloaded because of 12 things running at the same time. if the circuit was overloaded it should trip the breaker. 
      i do agree about the price. people today are interested in the bottom line. usually the guy with a cheaper price gets it done cheaper because of short cuts like the backstab and other way to cut his time down to get the job. home owner doesn't know the difference until failure. 
     i do the same thing when it comes to the my auto's i do all my own work. partly because it's cheaper to do so but i used to be a auto mechanic and worked for guy's that used to start replacing parts until the problem disappeared. even tho i can go in and say just replace this there always seems to be another part that is broken.
    i guess this is something that will never change.


----------



## jharkin (Feb 16, 2015)

Another perspective...  I have replaced many backstabbed outlets in this old house.   In fact I have replaced most of the outlets. I think the backstab install is just part of the problem, the other thing is that those backstab jobs tend to be the 69 cent builder grade outlets that are just cheaper overall - the springs in the sockets are not as good, the gauge of the metal and quality of the plastic is not as good and so on. I have also found that a lot of those backstab outlets where installed by obvious amateurs (might even have been a prior owner who overestimated his DIY skills), who had no concept of things like box fill limits and managed to wire half of them backwards. 

As Ive gone through the house Ive ended up checking nearly every outlet and replacing most of them.  I swap 30 year old worn out $0.69 backstab jobs for $4 HD or spec grade outlets and usually backwire them (clamped with the side screws).   The extra $3 might be meaningful for a builder putting up a hundred houses a year but in the grand scheme of things as the homeowner spending a few hundred to redo every outlet in a 300k house is just a drop in the bucket and money well spent for the piece of mind IMHO.


----------



## Highbeam (Feb 16, 2015)

jharkin said:


> Another perspective...  I have replaced many backstabbed outlets in this old house.   In fact I have replaced most of the outlets. I think the backstab install is just part of the problem, the other thing is that those backstab jobs tend to be the 69 cent builder grade outlets that are just cheaper overall - the springs in the sockets are not as good, the gauge of the metal and quality of the plastic is not as good and so on. I have also found that a lot of those backstab outlets where installed by obvious amateurs (might even have been a prior owner who overestimated his DIY skills), who had no concept of things like box fill limits and managed to wire half of them backwards.
> 
> As Ive gone through the house Ive ended up checking nearly every outlet and replacing most of them.  I swap 30 year old worn out $0.69 backstab jobs for $4 HD or spec grade outlets and usually backwire them (clamped with the side screws).   The extra $3 might be meaningful for a builder putting up a hundred houses a year but in the grand scheme of things as the homeowner spending a few hundred to redo every outlet in a 300k house is just a drop in the bucket and money well spent for the piece of mind IMHO.



I found a case, like 12, New outlets that I had bought to replace the 50yo backstab outlets in my house as I go. These new ones are the cheap sidewire type  that I would have to make hooks. I might even get rid of these new ones in favor of backwire outlets since they are made better, easier to get right, and saves me the time of sidewiring.


----------



## fbelec (Feb 16, 2015)

think about this. when tightening down a back wire outlet there is a good chance that with one wire under that clamp it's easy to strip out the brass screw because it is screwing in crooked. if you have two wires under the screw it's ok. now you may say that maybe i might be over tightening the screw. nope. if you have ever put a number twelve wire under that clamp and then start moving the wires around to get it to fit in the box you might find that tightening the screw just a little less tight so that not to strip it out the wire starts to move under the clamp and becomes loose then the outlet gets installed and the same thing happens. the side mount is not a cheap design. it works well. also when this happens to the clamp type it can blow a arc fault breaker and send you loopy trying to find why the arc fault is tripping.
just inputting my experience. oh and this happens all the time with gfi receptacles, you can tell by the brown spot on the side of the outlet when you replace it


----------



## brian89gp (Feb 17, 2015)

fbelec said:


> think about this. when tightening down a back wire outlet there is a good chance that with one wire under that clamp it's easy to strip out the brass screw because it is screwing in crooked. if you have two wires under the screw it's ok. now you may say that maybe i might be over tightening the screw. nope. if you have ever put a number twelve wire under that clamp and then start moving the wires around to get it to fit in the box you might find that tightening the screw just a little less tight so that not to strip it out the wire starts to move under the clamp and becomes loose then the outlet gets installed and the same thing happens. the side mount is not a cheap design. it works well. also when this happens to the clamp type it can blow a arc fault breaker and send you loopy trying to find why the arc fault is tripping.



So, you should get rid of the pigtails and use through wiring under the same screw with back-wire receptacles?


----------



## fbelec (Feb 20, 2015)

brian89gp said:


> So, you should get rid of the pigtails and use through wiring under the same screw with back-wire receptacles?



No. If you have the room in the box leave the pig tails. And if you are using back wire type put two wires under one clamp if possible one in the top and one in the bottom hole same screw. It will keep the screw level for a tight fit without stripping out the scew


----------



## EJL923 (Feb 23, 2015)

Im not an electrician, im an engineer who can get extremely obsessed with doing it the right way, or the best way.  Ive been in my first home for 6 years, and the first thing i did was buy an electric code book, full version.  I dont do anything without verifying that and doing some research online with electrical forums.

Now to the crux.  The most reliable and safest in my eyes is curling the ends around the screw, and pigtailing if its a high amperage circuit.  Curling the ends isnt much time over a few circuits every once in a while.  Now if i was a professional, i may have to find a faster but still safe way which looks like theres a few options in here.


----------



## DAKSY (Feb 24, 2015)

Gonna add two more cents to this post...
With all that's been said about the hook & side screw mount I haven't seen anything about putting that hook on in the RIGHT direction. Too many times I've been called to replace
faulty outlets, only to find that the hook was attached BACKWARDS. When the screw was tightened, it didn't draw the copper IN, it pushed (or tried to push) it OUT.
Heating & cooling of the circuit had caused the screw to loosen...
Back to the back stabbers, I've had mice build a nest in an outlet box & the movement caused the wire to become UN-stabbed. Trying to find that break in the circuit was a chore
until I used one of those electrical receptacle tester plugs.


----------



## ironpony (Feb 24, 2015)

everyone is making very valid points here, but I see one common denominator on most of the examples


HUMAN ERROR


----------



## fbelec (Feb 24, 2015)

ironpony said:


> everyone is making very valid points here, but I see one common denominator on most of the examples
> 
> 
> HUMAN ERROR


agree. even the best way of doing something someone can screw up. i guess it's part of life.


----------



## ewdudley (Feb 25, 2015)

ironpony said:


> everyone is making very valid points here, but I see one common denominator on most of the examples
> 
> 
> HUMAN ERROR



But remember your FMEA training:

"Human error becomes an accident when the preventive, error-proofing processes within the system are inadequate."


----------



## ironpony (Feb 25, 2015)

ewdudley said:


> But remember your FMEA training:
> 
> "Human error becomes an accident when the preventive, error-proofing processes within the system are inadequate."





kind of like what we used to say in aircraft

Fool proof the system and only a fool will use it.


----------



## heat seeker (Feb 28, 2015)

"Foolproof the system, and they make better fools."


----------



## raybonz (Feb 28, 2015)

seige101 said:


> You are relying on the little scored metal tab on the receptacle to handle all the current in the circuit. Pretty much all outlets are daisy chained so the current or load passes through each outlet on the circuit. You can kinda see what i am talking about in this picture
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Those tabs will hold up just fine.. Haven't ever seen one fail..


----------



## fbelec (Mar 1, 2015)

same here never seen or heard of them going bad


----------

