# RAV4 electric is back



## begreen (May 9, 2012)

Costly, but it's back:

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2012/05/its-official-the-toyota-rav4-ev-is-back/


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## peakbagger (May 9, 2012)

I wonder if they are going to be offering the APU in a trailer option they developed but never sold for the prior rav 4 ?


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## Seasoned Oak (May 9, 2012)

Looks Like a large prius. Been watching this for awhile,id rather the old 2000 model that got 120 MPC and was only $30000 on NMHI  batteries. Would really rather a plug-in Ford escape but they "pulled the plug" on them.


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## Slow1 (May 9, 2012)

Seriously expensive!  but I"m glad to see more options for electric vehicles....  I sure do hope it sells well for them, maybe by time they are available across the nation the cost will come down...


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## webbie (May 9, 2012)

This is really just a demo vehicle......they will probably sell the few thousand they predict, but not to average joes and janes. They will use that experience to hone their chops, just like they did with the Prius.


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## begreen (May 10, 2012)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Looks Like a large prius. Been watching this for awhile,id rather the old 2000 model that got 120 MPC and was only $30000 on NMHI batteries. Would really rather a plug-in Ford escape but they "pulled the plug" on them.


 
I'm watching for the Mitsubishi PX-MIEV. It's an electric vehicle like the Volt, with limited battery range and a generator aboard for distance hybrid traveling. But... the electric also works as part of the 4WD system and it can carry 5 persons comfortably.Hopefully they will lose the Star Trek dashboard, but keep the drivetrain.

http://www.mitsubishicars.com/MMNA/jsp/company/concepts.do#ConceptPXMiEV


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## Seasoned Oak (May 10, 2012)

Our Govt in its infinite wisdom will give the $7500 tax credit on this(Toyota RavEV) vehicle. They could at least require that the vehicle be made in the US if the are going to give taxpayer money toward its purchase, but someone forgot to include that in the legislation. Never could figure out why we finance the competition. This model will be made in canada while the leaf is made in japan. US assembly is slated to begin in dec 2012 but not without a 1.3 $ Billion Loan from the US dept of energy. The madness continues.


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## jebatty (May 11, 2012)

> The madness continues.


 
With the limited progress US companies have made in vehicle electric, I too would put my money wherever top notch innovation occurs. The madness is the billions going in subsidies and support for the oil, gas and coal industries, most of which are multi-national behemoths with no allegiance to any country.


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## Seasoned Oak (May 11, 2012)

jebatty said:


> With the limited progress US companies have made in vehicle electric, I too would put my money wherever top notch innovation occurs. The madness is the billions going in subsidies and support for the oil, gas and coal industries, most of which are multi-national behemoths with no allegiance to any country.


Agreed on the oil subsidies.if they continue then an equal amount should go to alternative fuels,As far as electric car rebates I just dont see the wisdom in paying people to buy cars off the competition.They could at least require that the cars are made here, and with a large majority of domestic content. IMHO


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## semipro (May 12, 2012)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Agreed on the oil subsidies.if they continue then an equal amount should go to alternative fuels,As far as electric car rebates I just dont see the wisdom in paying people to buy cars off the competition.They could at least require that the cars are made here, and with a large majority of domestic content. IMHO


 
Like it or not the "competition" is putting a lot of Americans to work making great cars.
I'm also very concerned about America's apparent loss of its manufacturing base. 
The latest episode of "America Revealed" on PBS went a long way towards allaying  my fears. Oak, I think you'd like it.
http://www.pbs.org/america-revealed/episode/4/


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## Seasoned Oak (May 12, 2012)

semipro said:


> Like it or not the "competition" is putting a lot of Americans to work making great cars.
> I'm also very concerned about America's apparent loss of its manufacturing base.
> The latest episode of "America Revealed" on PBS went a long way towards allaying my fears. Oak, I think you'd like it.
> http://www.pbs.org/america-revealed/episode/4/


I welcome the competition putting americans to work making great cars,Here in america, but we are also paying americans to purchase cars made entirely off shore in the competitions home countries. Does any other country do this? Is this a wise use of borrowed dollars for a country drowning in debt? As i said in the post you quoted "they could at least require the cars be made here with a large majority of domestic content before the dole out someone elses money to subsidize the purchase,thats not an unreasonable request.IMO


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## woodgeek (Sep 1, 2012)

The review is in....

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/02/a...esla-a-more-electrifying-utility.html?_r=1&hp

Anyone have $40k to drop on one?


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 1, 2012)

Seems its pretty solid. And toyota has also been successful in charming people into spending 40-50K on its similar looking lexus SUV 2 people as i know 2 people personally who own them. Good news that they are building them here, but no mention of the domestic parts content,well at least they are assembled here.


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## Slow1 (Sep 4, 2012)

It is a shame that it is a "compliance" car.  Would be nice if they were going to actually sell them across the country as it would be good to know how well it could compete in the market.  IF it had seating for more than 5 (6 is my need) then I'd be much happier too - add a 3rd row.  Then perhaps it could replace our van as the primary "Kid's car" we use daily all over the place.  I just have to keep waiting....


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## Dune (Sep 11, 2012)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Agreed on the oil subsidies.if they continue then an equal amount should go to alternative fuels,As far as electric car rebates I just dont see the wisdom in paying people to buy cars off the competition.They could at least require that the cars are made here, and with a large majority of domestic content. IMHO


 
I wonder how many oil dollars one electric car prevents from being exported from this country to terrorist supporting nations?


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 12, 2012)

All the makers of electrics need is about $5 a gallon avg.nationwide and sales will zoom,and the oil co,s know that. now is the time to get a deal on a volt. Not when gas is $5+.


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## Slow1 (Sep 12, 2012)

Seasoned Oak said:


> All the makers of electrics need is about $5 a gallon avg.nationwide and sales will zoom,and the oil co,s know that. now is the time to get a deal on a volt. Not when gas is $5+.


 
You are probably correct in that $5 gas would make electric car sales dramatically increase.  However, even $5 gas doesn't seem to make the current crop of electric (even range extended models like the volt) economically justified purely based on the fuel cost savings alone (at least not in the first 100K miles).  Think of it this way - if you have a 30mpg vehicle (reasonable for a small vehicle) then 100K miles would cost about 16.7K for gas at $5/gallon.  Now if you get 3.3 M/kWh then you need 30.3MWh (K kWh) which would cost something - about $2400 at .08/kWh or $4800 @ .16/kWh which puts the fuel savings at between $11.9-14.3K for the first 100K miles of use.  It seems that the asking price on these cars are a bit more than this over comparable sized ICE vehicles.

I keep trying to justify one... I ask myself what I'd be willing to pay for something like a Leaf or Volt (at least the Leaf has 5 seat belts), but it seems difficult to objectively calculate a value and conclude it is worth it without bringing in intangible/emotional factors.


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## begreen (Sep 12, 2012)

Gas is around $8/gal in Europe and electric cars are not taking over there yet. If gas goes to $5 the incentive to drive less and in smaller, more fuel efficient vehicles will grow. But that is not what's going to push mass adoption of the electric car. If batteries get much better and cheaper, so that electric cars have equivalent range and cost plus fast charging (or battery swapping), then I think the sales will gain a lot of momentum.

But it has to start somewhere. Remember 1983 when a cellphone cost a fortune an felt like putting a brick to your head. It only took about a decade for them to shrink down in price and size.


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 12, 2012)

Slow1 said:


> I keep trying to justify one... I ask myself what I'd be willing to pay for something like a Leaf or Volt (at least the Leaf has 5 seat belts), but it seems difficult to objectively calculate a value and conclude it is worth it without bringing in intangible/emotional factors.


How about a $268 a month lease with no down payment for a volt. Makes you think. That changes the equation somewhat.The leaf is out of the radar, sales have tanked since the batteries have been degrading like crazy prematurely. And who wants to be stuck along th eroad cuz you had to make a relatively short round trip 35 miles or so.As far as the volt, what other $40k hi tech car can you drive for $268 a month.


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## begreen (Sep 12, 2012)

I never had a leased car and expect I never will. Unless you're self-employed and need the deduction a lease doesn't make sense to me.


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 13, 2012)

begreen said:


> I never had a leased car and expect I never will. Unless you're self-employed and need the deduction a lease doesn't make sense to me.


Say the Car/truck is depreciating at the rate of $350 a month and the lease is $250 a month, make sense now? Last lease i did i made about 2k that way.


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## Slow1 (Sep 13, 2012)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Say the Car/truck is depreciating at the rate of $350 a month and the lease is $250 a month, make sense now? Last lease i did i made about 2k that way.


 
I'm not sure how you can make money on a lease - I suppose if you buy out the vehicle at the end and immediately sell it used and then net a gain sufficient to make up for the premium on the lease perhaps, but that seems very unlikely.

I'm rather with begreen - the reality is that I have not leased before.  My model has been to save for a car, buy it without payments and then drive it until it is no longer fit to drive - i.e. maintenance costs begin to overcome the value of the vehicle, or the vehicle no longer meets our transportation needs.  Generally this means keeping a car for well over 100K miles and on the order of 10 years.

I can see how a vehicle can be depreciating faster than the lease payments in a short term lease, but what after the 2-3 years?  The limited miles and such also are a concern to me.  We buy a vehicle to use - The slot that this 'small' car would fit would be driven more than 12K miles/year so a lot of these showpiece leases don't fit.  Then I was surprised to learn you have a final "termination" fee at the end of the lease as well - sort of a final payment that one needs to factor into the cost.  I also wonder about the 'wear and tear' judgement call - again, kids in the car etc, what is 'normal' wear and tear eh?  I don't want to get stuck in 2-3 years with some massive payment due to that either.

Bottom line - leases are good for some folks, but I am uncomfortable with them in general.  However I have been looking simply due to the battery question - but I do wonder how that will play out over time.  IF one could buy the car and lease the battery system that would be of interest to me.


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## begreen (Sep 13, 2012)

In that case, perhaps, if one must have a new vehicle. With the amount of mileage we put on a car, a new car doesn't make sense so we usually buy a low miles 2-3 yr old vehicle and let the first owner take the big hit. It's worked out well for us. I usually make money when selling because they are typically popular vehicles. However, we did buy the Prius new and it has not depreciated that quickly. Is the Volt depreciating at that rate?


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 13, 2012)

OK ill elaborate. We needed a car for my wifes commute. Not intending to keep the car long term what was a better deal. Lease a new the car for $225 a month or buy it for $350 a month plus a down Pmt. The lease was cheaper in many ways. When the lease was up i returned the car.No additional out of pocket. Had i bought the car and wanted to trade it in i would have owed an additional $2000 over what it was worth at the time. hence the car depreciated faster than the amount of my payments. I went on to buy another car instead of leasing and when it came time to update i did indeed have to cough up a few thousand over between what i still owed and what it was worth. Bottom line: a car still depreciated (quickly in the first few years) sometimes faster than the amount of your pmts. If you intend to keep a car 10 years no leasing may not be a good idea. if you might want to trade in 2-3(as with new tech /electric cars) years yes it an save dollars depending on the lease deal.


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 13, 2012)

In the case of the volt, if you have to finance $40000 you might pay $600 a month. A $268 lease with no down, sounds awfully enticing. Plus ill probably want a new improved volt(or other equiv,car) in 2-4 years anyway.  Your car will depreciate whether you buy it or lease it, so it depends on the diff between dep.and your pmts.


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## Slow1 (Sep 13, 2012)

Seasoned Oak said:


> In the case of the volt, if you have to finance $40000 you might pay $600 a month. A $268 lease with no down, sounds awfully enticing. Plus ill probably want a new improved volt(or other equiv,car) in 2-4 years anyway. Your car will depreciate whether you buy it or lease it, so it depends on the diff between dep.and your pmts.


 
Agreed.  And it is the new technology in these cars that has me even considering a lease at all.  There is more risk in the unknowns associated with these and thus a higher chance that even someone like myself who likes to "drive the car into the ground" may wish to replace the car in 2-4 years.  It is that "early adopter premium" really - and that brings me back to the question of do I really consider the benefits of owning a Volt to be worth $40K?  Bought up front/financed/leased no matter what, it is still a $40K vehicle and in the end it will get 4 people from point A to point B in much the same functional manner as my current Hyundai Accent can take 5 people.  Clearly there has to be "some other" reason to pay the premium - it isn't just saving gas (never going to save enough $'s on gas to make up the difference in vehicle costs here) so the other factors have to kick in - could be liking the car better (more luxury?), "Green" appeal, bragging rights, 'geek' appeal, safety concerns, other interests/concerns or a combination of all the above.  I really think that the car makers trying to sell these as electric on the basis of fuel savings are missing the mark as it just doesn't make sense there.  

This is where I think that Tesla's approach does make sense - they seem to be saying "We've made a luxury sedan to compete with similar or higher priced luxury sedans on the features/functions that the luxury sedan market values, it just happens to also be electric."  Unfortunately for me, I am not in the socioeconomic group that buys luxury sedans


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 13, 2012)

I think these low priced lease deals are a way for GM to advertise their cars for 2-3 years and move product for all the nay-sayers barking about low demand. So if they want to give you a $40000 car for 2 years,they get a sale and every car is a billboard and you get an otherwise expensive hi -tech ride for less than $300 a month with no down,sounds more then reasonable.  Just about any $40000 car will depreciate that $5000+ in 2 years time,plus you save loads of gas.


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