# How Much to Wire Small Bathroom



## vinny11950 (Dec 1, 2015)

I know this is tough to estimate, but I want to have an electrician rewire the bathroom I am rebuilding.  I will break it down to the studs so the electrician will have access to the walls and ceiling (attic too).

I want to:

Run new circuit exclusively for bathroom from breaker box (GFI breaker), 20 amps
Run new circuit exclusively for bathroom 240v ceiling electric heater, 20 amps
Set up 2 6" can lights in the ceiling (one over the bathtub and one outside)
Wire up the ceiling exhaust fan, which is an inline fan in the attic
Set up one plug-in outlet
Of course, all these things will have switches on the wall

If I buy all the material, how much would the labor be?  Ball park range?

I am meeting with a guy next week and want to see how much I can expect to pay.

Thanks.


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## burnham (Dec 1, 2015)

It really depends on access to the panel.  If the electrician can just run wires across a basement, it should be a pretty straight forward job.  If they have to snake wires through a finished wall it will take longer.    About a half day to rough, about the same to finish, and an hour to pull a permit. Easily $1500 in labor.


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## vinny11950 (Dec 1, 2015)

burnham said:


> It really depends on access to the panel.  If the electrician can just run wires across a basement, it should be a pretty straight forward job.  If they have to snake wires through a finished wall it will take longer.    About a half day to rough, about the same to finish, and an hour to pull a permit. Easily $1500 in labor.



Wow!


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## heat seeker (Dec 1, 2015)

If the tub has a shower, you'll need a waterproof fixture in there. You might, anyway, depending on code.


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## Buzz Saw (Dec 1, 2015)

If it's all open have you considered doing it yourself?  You seem to know what you need to buy, installing is the fun part of a project.  Get a few buddies to come over and knock it out on a Saturday.


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 1, 2015)

Im doing a bathroom now,im installing a double radiant bulb heater. I love those things, they only use 500 watts for 2 bulbs so you can run it right off the light switch.You can install it anywhere in the ceiling .You stand under it when you get out of the shower and it dries you off. It warms the floor while your in the shower. Easily warms the whole bathroom unless its enormous. I ordered mine online.


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## mass_burner (Dec 1, 2015)

Buzz Saw said:


> If it's all open have you considered doing it yourself?  You seem to know what you need to buy, installing is the fun part of a project.  Get a few buddies to come over and knock it out on a Saturday.


Got a $2000 quote on my basement office wiring project. Needless to say, did it myself. Just takes longer due to the learning curve.


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## vinny11950 (Dec 2, 2015)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Im doing a bathroom now,im installing a double radiant bulb heater. I love those things, they only use 500 watts for 2 bulbs so you can run it right off the light switch.You can install it anywhere in the ceiling .You stand under it when you get out of the shower and it dries you off. It warms the floor while your in the shower. Easily warms the whole bathroom unless its enormous. I ordered mine online.



This is what I got

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00F0SF6F6?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s00

Made in Canada like my Enviro pellet stove!

Had not thought of the bulbs.  Bathroom has a small electric baseboard heater which gets rusty and takes up space.  That's why I decided for the ceiling heater.

I'll post some pictures of the project as I go along.  I hope to finish in the next 10 to 14 days.  Gotta get this done before Christmas!


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## Dr.Faustus (Dec 2, 2015)

I dunno, i had a licensed legit electrician do my bathroom wiring - very similar to what you describe. walls and ceilings already down to studs, fan and light, few outlets. additional light fixture over vanity and switches. easy access through full basement to panel. I bought supplies. paid $500.00 for labor  and after he was done he helped me sheet rock the ceiling!


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## vinny11950 (Dec 2, 2015)

Buzz Saw said:


> If it's all open have you considered doing it yourself?  You seem to know what you need to buy, installing is the fun part of a project.  Get a few buddies to come over and knock it out on a Saturday.



Yeah, I think I will do most of the setup (run conduits, setup of boxes), but I want the electrician to check my work and do the breakers at the box.  I am not experienced enough to go in the breaker box.  I got a couple of electrical books, but not sure about some things and how they relate to local code.  The electrician I am talking to lives in the neighborhood so I am hoping he knows the codes and it's easy for him to come over (cheap).


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## vinny11950 (Dec 2, 2015)

I sistered 3 floor joists under the bathroom to fix them because someone ran a 1.5 inch pvc drain pipe too close to the edge.  Took out the drain pipe and ran it somewhere else and then added some quality douglas fir 2 x 8, 14 ft long alongside the damaged joists.  This should keep the floor from bouncing too much and hold the new weight of the porcelain tiles.

I have been going to terrylove.com for plumbing help.

And johnbridge.com for tiling advice.

They have this calculator that helps you measure the strength of your floor: http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/deflecto.pl

Cool tool.

I am now cross eyed reading about all the different thinset mortars available to use from different vendors.

I have to say, rebuilding a bathroom is the toughest home project I have had to do so far; the electrical, plumbing, structural and tiling work is very demanding and they all to be a certain way to be done right and for it to last.


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## Husky (Dec 2, 2015)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Im doing a bathroom now,im installing a double radiant bulb heater. I love those things, they only use 500 watts for 2 bulbs so you can run it right off the light switch.You can install it anywhere in the ceiling .You stand under it when you get out of the shower and it dries you off. It warms the floor while your in the shower. Easily warms the whole bathroom unless its enormous. I ordered mine online.


I second that. In my last house I made the mistake of putting in a fan heater unit and it was a mistake. The idea seemed great but when your wet the hot air blowing down was in no way hot enough. It made you cold and uncomfortable when you got out of the shower. We ended up not using it the first year and then I changed it over to the lamp style radiant heat and we loved it.


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## jebatty (Dec 2, 2015)

For a bathroom heater I installed a 240V-1500W kick space heater and wired it to a timer switch. When needed, the timer switch is turned to 15 minutes, which is plenty to heat the bathroom, then turns off. With the warm air blowing across the floor and then up to heat the bathroom, no cool drafts.


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## vinny11950 (Dec 2, 2015)

Husky said:


> I second that. In my last house I made the mistake of putting in a fan heater unit and it was a mistake. The idea seemed great but when your wet the hot air blowing down was in no way hot enough. It made you cold and uncomfortable when you got out of the shower. We ended up not using it the first year and then I changed it over to the lamp style radiant heat and we loved it.



One of the reasons for getting a ceiling unit was to save space and because if it doesn't work out I can swap it out without messing with the tiles on the lower half of the bathroom.

There is another half bath that I will try the bulbs in.  It's getting redone too just because it is next to the big one and I might as well do them both.


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## firefighterjake (Dec 2, 2015)

vinny11950 said:


> . . .
> I have to say, rebuilding a bathroom is the toughest home project I have had to do so far; the electrical, plumbing, structural and tiling work is very demanding and they all to be a certain way to be done right and for it to last.



Had a contractor tell me that bathrooms are often the most challenging, and most profitable, renovation jobs because a) there is a little something for every trade in that one room (electrical, plumbing, carpentry, sheetrock, paint, flooring, etc.) and b) they're often not very large which means you cannot have too many folks working in that one small spot at the same time.


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## Buzz Saw (Dec 2, 2015)

Have you considered electric radiant floor? I haven't done it, but looks pretty slick and straight forward. A thin heating element goes into the thin set under the tile.  Hook it up to a timer in a single gang box.


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## vinny11950 (Dec 2, 2015)

Any advice on my plan to run the wires from the main electrical panel in the basement to the attic using a few conduits?  I want to use conduits for future cable runs as it seems it will make it easier to add wire in the conduits.

Here is a diagram of the proposed run:







Thanks.


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## vinny11950 (Dec 2, 2015)

Buzz Saw said:


> Have you considered electric radiant floor? I haven't done it, but looks pretty slick and straight forward. A thin heating element goes into the thin set under the tile.  Hook it up to a timer in a single gang box.



I did.  Just saw a friend who put it in the new bathroom he redid, but I am scared to embed electrical in the tile with no access to service or repair.  Not worth it if something goes wrong I am pulling tiles.


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## Buzz Saw (Dec 2, 2015)

vinny11950 said:


> Yeah, I think I will do most of the setup (run conduits, setup of boxes), but I want the electrician to check my work and do the breakers at the box.  I am not experienced enough to go in the breaker box.  I got a couple of electrical books, but not sure about some things and how they relate to local code.  The electrician I am talking to lives in the neighborhood so I am hoping he knows the codes and it's easy for him to come over (cheap).


I can understand your caution in the panel, but it's pretty straight forward. Just do yourself a favor and watch what he is doing and ask lots of questions. If you are paying by the hour he should be happy to answer any questions you have.  Never hurts to learn WHY something is done a certain way.


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## vinny11950 (Dec 2, 2015)

Buzz Saw said:


> I can understand your caution in the panel, but it's pretty straight forward. Just do yourself a favor and watch what he is doing and ask lots of questions. If you are paying by the hour he should be happy to answer any questions you have.  Never hurts to learn WHY something is done a certain way.



Good advice.  I plan to work with him on this and I will let him know from the beginning so if he has a problem with it he can let me know before we get started.  Trust but verify.  Anyway, I am hoping it is a quiet time now for electrical work and this would be easy money for a local electrician looking to get some Christmas money.


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 2, 2015)

vinny11950 said:


> This is what I got
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00F0SF6F6?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s00
> 
> !


I stopped using those 20 years ago. Reasons too numerous to mention. I just haven't found anything as cost effective ,low power consumption and versatile, easy to maintain as the Radiant bulbs. You get a floor heater,a room heater ,a dryer,and a body warmer for 500 watts of power. Small bathrooms can use the single bulb version at 250 watts. Can run it on a 15 amp breaker with 14-2 wire.


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## vinny11950 (Dec 2, 2015)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I stopped using those 20 years ago. Reasons too numerous to mention. I just haven't found anything as cost effective ,low power consumption and versatile, easy to maintain as the Radiant bulbs. You get a floor heater,a room heater ,a dryer,and a body warmer for 500 watts of power. Small bathrooms can use the single bulb version at 250 watts. Can run it on a 15 amp breaker with 14-2 wire.



Ha, I am living in the past.  If it doesn't work out, I am perfectly willing to swap it out.  And since I already bought it, I might as well use it.  Though the radiant bulb heat would not get sucked out from the exhaust fan as much as the hot air heat.


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 2, 2015)

vinny11950 said:


> Ha, I am living in the past.  If it doesn't work out, I am perfectly willing to swap it out.  And since I already bought it, I might as well use it.  Though the radiant bulb heat would not get sucked out from the exhaust fan as much as the hot air heat.


Correct ,the radiant heat heats what it touches, mostly the floor. Unless your standing under it ,then it heats you.


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## KB007 (Dec 2, 2015)

Couple of things:

1) your contractor may charge you a better price if he supplies the wire, and misc as often they get better pricing than we might, and sometimes will simply have it on hand and price it to win.  Don't assume you can get better on materials.

2) installation, probably anywhere from 600 to 1200 depending on how many little details you're not mentioning or haven't thought of yet, like, do you want the lights on the same switch as the fan or separate?  Do you want the heater on a timer, switch, both, thermostat or some other arrangement?  Only 1 outlet, really? Prolly gonna end up with 2.  Only 2 pot lights? no vanity mirror lighting at all? no mood lighting for when you and the wife want to scrub each others backs?

Bathrooms are often the source of many changes as you get into the job, make sure you find a guy who seems flexible for when you make changes...


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## vinny11950 (Dec 6, 2015)

So I tore down the bathroom and the electrician came over and gave me a quote of $600.  That is to install 2 new 20 amp breakers at the main panel, run the wires to the bathroom, set up all the fixtures and the switches.  I'll have him do it next week.  With all the plumbing and structural work I have to do, I am more than happy to farm it out.  Good thing the bathroom in the basement is working


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## vinny11950 (Dec 6, 2015)

This is the kind of before shot.  This all started when I was chasing a very small leak from behind the toilet.  I pulled the toilet to get a better view and the floor was rotted, the toilet flange was barely holding, the toilet had a hairline crack at the back, and the tiles around the toilet came loose.  There was no going back.  





That nice piece of plywood on the floor with the hole on it was me trying to patch the toilet floor at first.

If you ain't bleeding, you ain't trying.  Screw hiding behind the sheet rock got me good.  Real deep.




This explains the rattling pipe sounds I would hear sometimes turning the water on and off.




That shower arm doesn't look too secure.


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## vinny11950 (Dec 6, 2015)

It's nice when the nails give up the wall in big chunks, makes it easier to remove.




Got it stripped down.  Room looks so small 




And the ceiling with sky light view.  It needs a lot of structural work to beef it up.




I figure I am adding about 1,400 lbs of permanent material weight (counting cement board, sheet rock, tiles, mortar, fixtures, mud, etc.) so I am beefing up the studs and joists.  I already sistered all the joists under the bathroom to handle the new weight.


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## jeffesonm (Dec 8, 2015)

watching with interest... need to do the same soon


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 8, 2015)

Residential wiring is very simple ,but you still need to know what your doing. Im not a licensed electrician but iv been doing wiring for 35 years. Never had an accident or a fire. But i just do the houses i buy and rehab. Not for hire.


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## semipro (Dec 9, 2015)

It looks like its a good time to consider:

sound insulation in the walls (Roxul?), 

framing backers for towel racks and other things mounted on walls, 

insulating water pipes, 

access hatches for shower plumbing, 

etc.


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## vinny11950 (Dec 10, 2015)

Sorry for not responding earlier, but its been tough going.  I keep tearing stuff out to make it right just so I don't have to go back to fix it later on with closed walls.  And I am also fixing some roof framing issues and adding insulation now that it is easier to get to the attic through the sky light.

The electrician was here all day yesterday.  I keep adding tasks for him do to, like fixing broken wires in the attic, replacing wires that were run tight over joists, and also putting the smaller bathroom also on its own circuit breaker.  The issue has been untangling all the outlets from the bathroom runs.  So the old wiring in the main bathroom shared the circuit with the master bedroom and part of the small bathroom too.  So if the GFI tripped in the main bathroom the lights in the bedroom would go.  All this mixed wiring makes upgrading to 12 gauge wire for 20 AMPs very time consuming being that he has to find the wires in the attic junction, separate them and then run 12 gauge wire for the 20 amp.  I don't think he was expecting the wiring to be such a cluster in the attic.  My bill it still going up.


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## vinny11950 (Dec 10, 2015)

semipro said:


> It looks like its a good time to consider:
> 
> sound insulation in the walls (Roxul?),  - I want to do this, but I will have to do a lot of cutting to get it to fit between and around wires and pipes
> 
> ...



Thanks


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## semipro (Dec 10, 2015)

vinny11950 said:


> Is there a good brand of hatches to get or build your own?
> sound insulation in the walls (Roxul?), - I want to do this, but I will have to do a lot of cutting to get it to fit between and around wires and pipes


Home centers sell plastic access panels.  Many make their own.
I think if you used something like Roxul you'd be amazed how easy (almost fun) it is to cut and install,, nothing like fiberglass.
Insulating cold water pipes prevents condensation and potential mold, I think an underrated consideration.


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## vinny11950 (Dec 11, 2015)

The electrical is done.  It took 1.5 days and double the estimate because I kept adding to the work to make it right.  He fixed a bunch of wires in the attic, cleaned up the runs, made them nice and neat.  I also had him do another breaker and isolation of the small  bath behind the main bath just so the 2 bathrooms are isolated.  Since the back of the house was tied in to all these circuits it was a lot of work to get them separated with the right gauge for 20 amps.  But I am happy.




Got the 6 inch can light from Home Depot, IC and airtite.  They still looked a little drafty so I added some black RTV to make it better.




With the electricians out of the way, I went back to improving the insulation and structure in the attic / roof.

More Roxul and some strongbacks to support the ridge board.

Before:




After:





The radio and sports talk makes the work much better.

Also fixed a broken roof rafter:




Next up is redoing the PVC drain pipes and the vents because there is plenty to fix.


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## semipro (Dec 12, 2015)

Re the blue electrical box in the first photo: are the romex cables attached (stapled) to the stud near the box?  It doesn't appear so in the photo.


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## DougA (Dec 12, 2015)

In my daughter's house, I had to add an outlet to her bathroom and 2 to the kitchen. All the kitchen outlets were on the same circuit as the entire main floor, so I had to bring everything from the main breaker which was located at the far end of the house.  It was impossible to pull wires through the house. No basement in that section and going through the ceiling meant ripping up ceilings in 2 rooms, so I brought 6 gauge through pvc conduit outside that hid nicely just under the overhang, then to the far side of the house and put in a new sub panel. If you're going to do all that, might as well have a few empty spots for future such as a/c, etc. 
I ended up spending well over 40 hours on the job plus $700 in material, all for a few outlets but that was the cheapest and pretty well only way to go. Wiring in older houses really sucks.


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## vinny11950 (Dec 12, 2015)

You are correct, Semipro.  I told the electrician that I would secure them.  Might still need to wiggle them a bit.


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## vinny11950 (Dec 12, 2015)

DougA said:


> In my daughter's house, I had to add an outlet to her bathroom and 2 to the kitchen. All the kitchen outlets were on the same circuit as the entire main floor, so I had to bring everything from the main breaker which was located at the far end of the house.  It was impossible to pull wires through the house. No basement in that section and going through the ceiling meant ripping up ceilings in 2 rooms, so I brought 6 gauge through pvc conduit outside that hid nicely just under the overhang, then to the far side of the house and put in a new sub panel. If you're going to do all that, might as well have a few empty spots for future such as a/c, etc.
> I ended up spending well over 40 hours on the job plus $700 in material, all for a few outlets but that was the cheapest and pretty well only way to go. Wiring in older houses really sucks.



Yes, something simple opens up a bunch of work.  I like your work around to your problem.  That was smart.

Sometimes you have to think outside the box.  I am noticing that in this house construction the electricians and plumbers did work when everything was open with easy access, but they ran wires and pipes in places that are not accessible once the sheet rock and insulation go up.  Some of the wires were run so tight in the attic, I could barely nudge them.


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## vinny11950 (Dec 12, 2015)

In my fantasy world I would design my house to be 2 x6 walls all around, 2 x 12 floor joists to make plumbing easy and no flex in the floors.  9 foot ceilings, and a basement foundation 10 feet tall, at least 3 feet above ground for nice basement windows, with the walls waterproofed and insulated on the outside, drain pipe outside too, but with an added inside perimeter drain too.  All doable when pouring the foundation.  I can dream!!


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## burnham (Dec 12, 2015)

Is this a licensed electrician?  From the little I can see, he's not taking much pride in his work.


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## vinny11950 (Dec 12, 2015)

burnham said:


> Is this a licensed electrician?  From the little I can see, he's not taking much pride in his work.



What makes it suspect?


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## DougA (Dec 12, 2015)

vinny11950 said:


> What makes it suspect?


I'm assuming you are putting a few staples in, etc. Apart from that, all I see is a very crowded box.
It's a bit sloppy but there are some electricians that will take longer so that everything looks picture perfect. The inspectors love that stuff because it's so easy to inspect and they know the electrician took their time. The downside is that time is money. Some will argue that it doesn't take any longer to do it perfect. I disagree and I think there is a difference between right and picture perfect. Once it's all done, it all gets covered, never to be seen again. 
I prefer to get it done to code, make sure it's right and keep the difference in my pocket.

The last two guys I used in a commercial building (illegal for me to do it) padded the bill by hundreds and I called them on it. One billed for twice as much 6g than he used. Thought I wouldn't check.


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## burnham (Dec 12, 2015)

vinny11950 said:


> What makes it suspect?



The wires all look crammed into the box.  There are twists in the romex outside of the box. The romex isn't fastened to the stud very well. On the far left side of the box, it looks like two pieces of 12-2 are in the two-screw connector sideways, which makes them crushed not clamped (romex isn't designed to be stapled or clamped on the side). On the far left of the box it looks like two pieces of 12-2 are in the connector side-by-side, rather than stacked on top of one another.  The wires aren't fastened to the stud very cleanly.  They make a plastic romex stack that nails to the stud, and will take six or eight pieces of wire. I would have used one of those in this situation. I would have put the outlet at 44" above the sub floor, and the four gang at 48".  Then the top box (thermostat?) at 5'. 

 To me, it all just looks very crude.  I understand that it will be covered with sheet rock, but there's no reason to do the work neatly.  It only takes a little more time to make something both look nice, and be easier for the next guy to work on in the future.  If you can't do a good job quickly, well, you're not very good at your job.  I've seen a lot of guys not care about how something looked behind the walls, Then come to find out their finished product doesn't look that great either.   I don't mean to come off sounding like a jerk. You put the picture of his work out there, this is just my 2 cents.   I asked if the guy was licensed because that work looked to me more like something a homeowner would do, or maybe a commercial electrician who had no residential experience had done it.     

Again, this is none of my business, and it will probably work fine when everything is said and done.


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## vinny11950 (Dec 12, 2015)

Thanks for the advice, Burnham, I will bring it up to the electrician when he comes back.  He is licensed and insured. 

Also, you are not sounding like a jerk and I appreciate the time it took to write the explanation.  Frankly, that is why I post the images, hoping that someone with more knowledge than me will comment and I will learn something.


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## semipro (Dec 12, 2015)

vinny11950 said:


> Frankly, that is why I post the images, hoping that someone with more knowledge than me will comment and I will learn something.


And thanks to you Vinny for posting so we can all learn something.


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## vinny11950 (Dec 18, 2015)

Did more work this past week and the project keeps getting bigger just because it doesn't make sense to tackle the main bath renovation and not fix issues that are interconnected to it.

It rained hard yesterday, so I had to bring the cutting indoors to keep working.  On the plus side, it's been warmer than usual on the east coast so the open ceiling is not as cold as it could be.

Decided to redo the back wall on the adjacent half bath too, just to make it easier and because I decided to change the studs that had been drilled through with holes too big, thereby weakening them.




Plumber got too excited with the hole saw.





This would not hold very well with the new, heavier tile.  I could get big flex in the studs with a good push.  Keep in mind you are allowed to drill up to 60% in center of non-load bearing wall studs, and 40% in center of load bearing wall studs.  If you must go bigger on load bearing walls, you have to double up studs and can only do it to one stud sets, not continuous.

I doubled up the new studs and drilled a smaller hole for the 1 1/4 vent for the new 2" drain of the bathroom sink on the half bath.  I am rerouting this drain to go into a different drain line below and making it bigger drain size, from 1 1/2" to 2".  Note that I am going off code for this one vent to make the stud hole as small as possible.  Code allows for vent size to be same drain pipe size or the next size down.  In my case it should be 1 1/2 vent pipe size. 




New, smaller holes on doubled up studs.


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 19, 2015)

You could always use one of those one way vent valves under the sink and eliminate the pipe run thru the studs altogether.


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## vinny11950 (Dec 25, 2015)

Seasoned Oak said:


> You could always use one of those one way vent valves under the sink and eliminate the pipe run thru the studs altogether.



I have never trusted those things.

But I am just about done with replacing all the PVC drain lines and fixtures, new vent lines too, through the attic.  Had to open a wall to get at the kitchen line, but well worth it.  Upgraded from 1.5 inch lines to 2 inch.  Taking out the old lines, some of the joints just came apart with a pull.

I pretty much followed the old drain and vent setup but fixed a negative slope in the main line and replaced a couple of 3 inch sanitary tees that had been laid on their backs with wye combos.  Had to redo some parts a couple of times because my dry fit measurements were off a bit, but getting it right is tough, especially if the fit is tighter than you thought.  On the plus side, my soldering is getting better.  I used the bread on the water line trick to solder with water in the pipes.  Smelled like burnt toast!


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## fbelec (Dec 25, 2015)

how is it going? you got a cheap price for electrical labor. the normal bath by code would be three new arc fault circuits. gfi outlet, heat and lights. anything new has to be on a arc fault circuit that's why 3 of them. if you went with the bulb type heater than 2 circuits would do seeing that the two bulb is five hundred watts or in floor electric would be about the same.just so you know if i were bidding on this without seeing this you are looking with all the stock $1800.00 more if i had to buy the in floor heat


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## fbelec (Dec 25, 2015)

sorry didn't see your post before i started typing


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## vinny11950 (Jan 4, 2016)

Well, I managed to catch the flu Christmas eve and have been too tired to do much.  But this week I am jumping into the project again.  Gotta close that ceiling cause it's getting really cold.


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## vinny11950 (Jan 9, 2016)

Still coughing some but getting through the work.

The other morning, early morning it was 20 degrees outside, when I went up the sky light window and saw a few drips of water running down the framing.  Since it didn't rain, I am assuming condensation and some deal of sun radiation causing it to condense because it does not do it other times.






Maybe this explains the mold stains on the frame.  I plan to sand it down and use a mold resistant paint.  Can't see doing anything about the condensation though.


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## vinny11950 (Jan 9, 2016)

Went a little overboard with the foam insulation.




Dry fit the toilet one last time just to make sure I don't get any surprises when finished.  12 inch rough.  The toilet I bought is a Kohler for a 12 inch rough, and you still have about an inch to play with between the water tank and the back of the wall.




Got the Fantech inline fan installed, rated for 190 cfm.  It is a 4 inch fan, but I used 6 inch duct.  I had to go with the 4 inch exhaust fan because the vent from the roof is 4 inch, a Broan vent hood that is sold in HD.  I hate it.  4 inch doesn't carry much air and if you add in other factors, can really kill your cfm (if you have a choice when installing a new vent through the roof, go with 6 inch).  But I wasn't about to climb the roof in winder and learn to how drill a 6 inch hole in the roof.  So I used a 6 inch Speedi boot register, a 90 degree elbow and insulated flex duct, into a T and then a 6 inch to 4 inch reducer.  I plan to add another smaller duct to the other side of the T, that will draw air from the skylight well if I keep getting mold issues.  I will cap it for now.







Got the ceiling heater installed.  It puts out a lot of heat very quickly.  Fashioned a chain to hold it up so it doesn't pull on the wire.


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## vinny11950 (Jan 9, 2016)

Also added more insulation and replaced torn insulation in the attic.  Very time consuming.  Not as exciting so no pictures.

Have to figure out how I am going to air seal the ceiling heater.  Maybe I will do one of those foam boxes in the above attic space.


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## Buzz Saw (Jan 9, 2016)

Is the sky light insulated?


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## vinny11950 (Jan 9, 2016)

Buzz Saw said:


> Is the sky light insulated?



No.

But what exactly should be insulated?  All the way up to the roof sheathing?

Thanks.


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## Buzz Saw (Jan 9, 2016)

vinny11950 said:


> No.
> 
> But what exactly should be insulated?  All the way up to the roof sheathing?
> 
> Thanks.


If the sides of the sky light are exposed to a cold space,like an attic, there will be condensation like you are experiencing.  The cold side of the sky light should be insulated from the cold. Foam board and spray foam would be my first choice.

If the sky light isn't exposed to cold air then I'm not sure how to help ya. The pic makes me think it is exposed to cold air.

Hope that made sense.......


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## vinny11950 (Jan 10, 2016)

Buzz Saw said:


> If the sides of the sky light are exposed to a cold space,like an attic, there will be condensation like you are experiencing.  The cold side of the sky light should be insulated from the cold. Foam board and spray foam would be my first choice.
> 
> If the sky light isn't exposed to cold air then I'm not sure how to help ya. The pic makes me think it is exposed to cold air.
> 
> Hope that made sense.......



Yes, thank you.


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## semipro (Jan 10, 2016)

The glass on our bathroom skylight gathers a lot of condensation and has to do with the glazing temp rather than the frame temp.  
The only possible solution I can think of is to install an additional glass or plastic barrier just below the level of the ceiling within the skylight.  
This would decrease condensation through the additional R-value or at least allow any condensation forming to drop off onto the floor below rather than draining down the side of you skylight and maybe the ceiling.


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## vinny11950 (Jan 10, 2016)

semipro said:


> The only possible solution I can think of is to install an additional glass or plastic barrier just below the level of the ceiling within the skylight.



That's a great idea, Semipro.  Had not thought of it.  Thanks.


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## vinny11950 (Jan 10, 2016)

Whoever framed this house, had trouble getting the studs 16 on center.  The cool thing about Roxul is that you can cut a piece to fit the difference and compress them in between the studs and it holds tight.




Here is a picture of the smaller bathroom fittings for the sink.  This is the other side of the bathtub wall.  I like using the 1/2 inch male threaded copper fitting with the 1/4 turn female threaded water supply valve - 2 adjustable wrenches allows you to crank them tight with no issues.  Should make replacing them easy, no soldering under the sink.




Here is the underside of the Speedi boot register.  I added the 6 inch damper and tested it a few times to make sure it opens cleanly.  No issues.


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## fbelec (Jan 10, 2016)

i didn't understand where is the 6 to 4 inch reducer? most fans if you reduce the pipe it speeds up the fan and shortens the life of the fan motor.


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## vinny11950 (Jan 10, 2016)

fbelec said:


> i didn't understand where is the 6 to 4 inch reducer? most fans if you reduce the pipe it speeds up the fan and shortens the life of the fan motor.



Yes, sorry, that part is confusing.  I put the reducer right before the fan.  I hope the centrifugal fan is strong enough to take the strain.  But I put the 6 inch duct because it makes for easier air flow.  I figure it is easier to change a burnt out fan than upgrading an undersized duct run that is buried in the narrow slope of the attic.  Might as well go big or go home.


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## fbelec (Jan 11, 2016)

ok so your fan is 4 inch and you use 6 inch from the ceiling vents


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## vinny11950 (Jan 11, 2016)

Yes, exactly.  I was reading through the HVAC forums and everyone pretty much hates the 4 inch roof hood vents (which was installed years ago) because they are not big enough to get the required CFM.  Home Depot should sell them with a disclaimer that they may not work as well as desired.

So I am trying to make up for it by using the 6 inch duct run and a powerful 4 inch fan.  If the 4 inch fan is not enough, I can upgrade to the 6 inch fan rate for 267 CFM.  Since the fan is installed in the tall part of the attic, it's not that difficult.


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## vinny11950 (Jan 15, 2016)

burnham said:


> From the little I can see, he's not taking much pride in his work.



Well, sadly Burnham was correct.  I kept looking at the wires in the boxes and finally pulled them all out and figured out what he did.  He did 3 things that made me undo some of the work and redo it right from what I could figure out on the electrical forums.

1) What bothered me at first was a multibranch wire circuit he ran for the small bathroom and the large bathroom using 12/2 AC wire lite - Black hot fed large bathroom, white became hot for the small bathroom (on a separate breaker) and green wire  became the neutral - for ground wire he tapped into the ground for the separated circuit for the dedicated bathroom electric heater.  No reason for this with new wiring.  At least he should have used 12/3 wire.  Also he didn't use a double pole breaker for the two circuits so they trip together.  And no, the metal clad was not the grounding type with the bonding strip.

2) I guess he got confused with what I asked and left a 240 volt wire from another circuit in the box.  No reason for it. (I had to remove the wire from the feed in the attic). 

3) And finally, he tied the neutrals from different circuits together.  A definite no no.  

So I pulled a new 12/2 romex wire from the panel box, to the attic, and made that the feed to the small bathroom.  This allowed me to change the multibranch wire to a regular circuit to feed the big bathroom.  Much more simple to follow and wire safely.

Then this made separating the neutrals straight forward, keeping them to their circuits only.  Interestingly enough, once I straightened this out my AM radio signal got much clearer.  Turns out connecting neutrals from different circuits can cause EMFs which mess with AM radio reception. 

On the plus side of doing this is I now understand the wiring much better.  And I only zapped myself twice.  Had to learn all this on the fly.

Anyway, this took 2 days to sort out and a lot of bitching.  Funny thing was buying the Romex 12/2 wire.  50 feet of wire is like $25.  Saw that I could get 250 feet for $50 but what the hell am I going to do with 250 feet of wire.  Well, the 50 feet ran out and I had to get more wire, so I ended up buying the 250 anyway!


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## Buzz Saw (Jan 15, 2016)

Always buy that 250' roll.  Never know when you might need to run another circuit, or help a buddy do some wiring.  

The other day I bought a 1000' roll cheaper than 4-250' rolls.....I only have a few spare feet.....About 200' spare


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## vinny11950 (Jan 15, 2016)

Buzz Saw said:


> I bought a 1000' roll cheaper than 4-250' rolls



I didn't even notice the 1000 roll.....  You are truly all in on the wiring, Buzz Saw.


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## Buzz Saw (Jan 15, 2016)

vinny11950 said:


> I didn't even notice the 1000 roll.....  You are truly all in on the wiring, Buzz Saw.


I'm in the middle of wiring my new 40x60 pole barn. I've ran ten 20 amp circuits so far and I think I'm going to run a few more since I still have extra. You can never have to many circuits, especially with lots of power tools. 
Still have to run conduit for the 50amp circuits....


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## vinny11950 (Jan 15, 2016)

Buzz Saw said:


> I'm in the middle of wiring my new 40x60 pole barn. I've ran ten 20 amp circuits so far and I think I'm going to run a few more since I still have extra. You can never have to many circuits, especially with lots of power tools.
> Still have to run conduit for the 50amp circuits....



Absolutely makes sense to run separate circuits at 20 amps.  Easy to switch off and isolate if you need to.  Especially with copper prices now, wiring and water pipes are really affordable now.  I have been getting the 12 gauge wires and the thicker L type water pipes.  Go big or go home.


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## bag of hammers (Jan 16, 2016)

vinny11950 said:


> I did.  Just saw a friend who put it in the new bathroom he redid, but I am scared to embed electrical in the tile with no access to service or repair.  Not worth it if something goes wrong I am pulling tiles.


I put radiant heat in the floor in my last bathroom build.  For a couple extra $ I ran a spare thermistor in the floor as a spare.  From whet i was told, as long as you don't break or damage the heat cables the odds of failure are very low (I tested the circuit 3 times before covering them).   In the small bathroom I only needed @16 sq ft of heat cable / mesh with total power draw just under 200 watts).   Used self leveling concrete to cover the mesh, then ditra and tile over that.   Also ran a spare 14/2 over the shower for some add'l light - I think the radiant bulbs mentioned in this thread are on the radar now for that spot.  In total the materials (including wall thermostat) added approx $450 to the job.  I wouldn't hesitate to do another, stepping onto a warm floor in the early morning or middle of the (cool) night visits to the bathroom is really nice.


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## fbelec (Jan 16, 2016)

Vinny nice job figuring out the guy was a hack overloading neutrals could have been a fire. Also multi wire is useless cause everything has to be arc fault breakers and they don't work with 3 wire and sharing a neutral.


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## bag of hammers (Jan 17, 2016)

fbelec said:


> Vinny nice job figuring out the guy was a hack overloading neutrals could have been a fire. Also multi wire is useless cause everything has to be arc fault breakers and they don't work with 3 wire and sharing a neutral.



+1 on the great job fixing the issues.   

Re: arc fault, FWIW, when I wired my addition only 2 bedrooms were required to be arc fault.  I had 10 circuits on standard breakers, the arc fault (Eaton) at the time were something like $70 each vs $7 for the same 15 amp.  The inspector told me the high cost was a factor in the code decision at the time (limiting the requirement to bedroom circuits as it could otherwise add $1,000 or more to a job).   I hope the price has come down in recent years.


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## vinny11950 (Jan 17, 2016)

fbelec said:


> Vinny nice job figuring out the guy was a hack overloading neutrals could have been a fire. Also multi wire is useless cause everything has to be arc fault breakers and they don't work with 3 wire and sharing a neutral.



Thanks, Frank.

I meant to ask before but forgot; are bathroom circuits supposed to be on arc fault breakers if they are dedicated and have GFCI protection at the switch box in the bathroom?  I keep reading conflicting views on this.


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## vinny11950 (Jan 17, 2016)

fbelec said:


> the guy was a hack



Very disappointed with this outcome.  The guy had done work for me before that was good.  He is punctual, responsive, respectful, and a nice guy.


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## Buzz Saw (Jan 17, 2016)

vinny11950 said:


> Thanks, Frank.
> 
> I meant to ask before but forgot; are bathroom circuits supposed to be on arc fault breakers if they are dedicated and have GFCI protection at the switch box in the bathroom?  I keep reading conflicting views on this.


Have to check NEC, then local code.  Each government agency can be different from the next.  For example county code may not require arc fault but the city within the county may require arc fault......

This is why I love living in the middle of no where.  No permits required for work, other than the zoning permit.  Really relaxed where I live.


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## vinny11950 (Jan 17, 2016)

Buzz Saw said:


> Have to check NEC, then local code.  Each government agency can be different from the next.  For example county code may not require arc fault but the city within the county may require arc fault......
> 
> This is why I love living in the middle of no where.  No permits required for work, other than the zoning permit.  Really relaxed where I live.



Yeah, I am going to have to go to the building permits department and act like the confused home owner thinking of doing a project.  Otherwise they will ask for a permit.  And then they want drawings, manuals, fees and on and on.  I did this for the pellet stove and don't want to do it again.


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## burnham (Jan 17, 2016)

fbelec said:


> Vinny nice job figuring out the guy was a hack overloading neutrals could have been a fire. Also multi wire is useless cause everything has to be arc fault breakers and they don't work with 3 wire and sharing a neutral.



Bathrooms don't have to be on arc faults, yet.


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## fbelec (Jan 18, 2016)

bag of hammers said:


> +1 on the great job fixing the issues.
> 
> Re: arc fault, FWIW, when I wired my addition only 2 bedrooms were required to be arc fault.  I had 10 circuits on standard breakers, the arc fault (Eaton) at the time were something like $70 each vs $7 for the same 15 amp.  The inspector told me the high cost was a factor in the code decision at the time (limiting the requirement to bedroom circuits as it could otherwise add $1,000 or more to a job).   I hope the price has come down in recent years.



they have come way down from there. at the depot or lowes eaton is 37 dollars. the companies out there have come out with arc fault and gfi combo breakers for 42 to 45 dollars.


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## fbelec (Jan 18, 2016)

burnham said:


> Bathrooms don't have to be on arc faults, yet.



that i know of now everything has to be arc fault in a home. they never used to arc fault a kitchen or bath because of the arc faults and gfi receptacles used to have battles on who can blow faster. now everything we do in a house has to have arc fault protection. when doing a bathroom or kitchen outlet it's cheaper to buy the arc fault gfi breaker than a arc fault breaker and a gfi receptacle


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## vinny11950 (Jan 18, 2016)

Here's another question I encountered while rewiring the GFCI outlet.  I screwed the power source wires to the line in side of the GFCI, then the load wires to feed the other loads (lights).  I forgot to attach the ground wire to the ground screw on the GFI.  I only figured this out when I got a mild shock when touching the metal body of the GFI switch and the ground wire at the same time.  The shock only read 50 volts on the tester when touching the metal body and the ground wire.  Once I hooked up the ground wire to the GFI ground screw, no more mild shock.

Does this sound right?  Why would the metal ears that are used to hang/screw the GFI switch become energized to 50 volts only?


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## fbelec (Jan 18, 2016)

that might be the circuit board in the gfi itself


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## burnham (Jan 18, 2016)

fbelec said:


> that i know of now everything has to be arc fault in a home. they never used to arc fault a kitchen or bath because of the arc faults and gfi receptacles used to have battles on who can blow faster. now everything we do in a house has to have arc fault protection. when doing a bathroom or kitchen outlet it's cheaper to buy the arc fault gfi breaker than a arc fault breaker and a gfi receptacle



 The code specifically list a bunch of areas that are required to have arc fault protection, and then call for protection on similar areas.  It doesn't include basements, garages, or bathrooms on that list.  I can't tell if it's by intention, or if the areas listed are the only areas to use the breakers.   It's art 210-12 a.

  I work with a wiring inspector quite a bit, I'll get his take on it.


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## vinny11950 (Jan 18, 2016)

fbelec said:


> that might be the circuit board in the gfi itself



Yeah, it was the GFCI outlet.  Swapped another new one, and the issue went away.  While on the HD return line, another customer was returning the same one too.


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## vinny11950 (Jan 22, 2016)

Well, still at it.

I am satisfied enough to start closing up the ceiling as most of the work in the attic is done.

I put Roxul between the joists and then R30 Fiberglass, the pink stuff from Dow, over that, perpendicular to the joists.






Built a nice foam box over the heater to seal it.  Made sure to leave plenty of space between the heater and the foam, then Roxul will be in between the two.  And the outside shell of the heater does not get hot at all.



Here's a picture of the Pink insulation over the Roxul, from the attic view.



Didn't think of this until I was about to close the ceiling.  The  can light over the bathtub has a small metal junction box attached to the side where the wires connect.  It has a flip cover for access.  Now in the position this is in, in the low side of the attic, behind the skylight, getting to this box is going to be a PITA.  It is doable, but it is pushing the limits of the NEC code of access to electrical connections.  I could have changed it by detaching the box, running a longer wire and placing the junction box in a more accessible location, but it would have meant changing the can light design from manufacturer original (which is probably a no no) and taking the time out to get the materials and doing it.  Didn't want to stop and delay any more so I left it as is.  With better thought, I should have designed around it.  Can't think of everything.




Here is the finished insulated ceiling, except for the skylight, which I need for attic access.


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## vinny11950 (Jan 22, 2016)

I then installed the ceiling sheet rock, 1/2 green board using a one man install trick learned on Youtube.




My Rotozip skills are bad as I was not able to cut around the fixtures perfectly.  But it is good enough that when finished and with the trims, it will be nicely covered.




This Rotozip creates a storm of fine drywall dust.  Cover up, close doors, tape  gaps to contain it.  I used my box fan filter contraption to catch some of the dust.




Once the sheet rock was screwed in, I filled the fixture gaps with spray foam.  I will trim it when it dries.

I am done for this week.  Glad I was finally able to close the ceiling and stop the torrent of cold air from flowing into the house.  The pellet stove had trouble keeping the back of the house  above 62.  Put a plastic cover on the attic access to help some more.

Now to get ready for the snow.


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## vinny11950 (Jan 22, 2016)

I was going to install the 3/4 dryply plywood floor but was not sure how to support the area that will go under the toilet.




The main plumbing runs inside this 21 inch wide bay.  The missing plywood square is what rotted out from the original toilet leak.  The red oval represents the toilet and you can see on the upper left side there is not much support.  Figure the toilets will weigh about 75 lbs and then 300 lbs of person over than.  I am afraid that side will constantly flex enough to detach the tile.   There is no room to lay a cross beam, so I am thinking L shape metal support brackets at the top to catch the top edge of the 3/4 plywood and keep it from flexing.


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## semipro (Jan 22, 2016)

vinny11950 said:


> My Rotozip skills are bad as I was not able to cut around the fixtures perfectly.


Mine too but I saw a relevant tip I plan to try next time I do it:  it helps to make sure you're using a drywall cutter and that the depth is set just right.  The drywall cutter has has a section at the end with no cutting surfaces that is supposed to ride on the box.  Stupidly, I had mine set too deep and the cutting portion of the the bit was eating through the boxes.


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## semipro (Jan 22, 2016)

vinny11950 said:


> There is no room to lay a cross beam, so I am thinking L shape metal support brackets at the top to catch the top edge of the 3/4 plywood and keep it from flexing.


Could you double up on your deck material here if you have the vertical clearance from the plumbing with a 2nd piece glued/screwed to the top piece? 
To clarify, the bottom piece of deck would fit between the existing joists and be attached the deck that lays on top the joists.


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## vinny11950 (Jan 22, 2016)

semipro said:


> Could you double up on your deck material here if you have the vertical clearance from the plumbing with a 2nd piece glued/screwed to the top piece? There is not enough space for that.
> To clarify, the bottom piece of deck would fit between the existing joists and be attached the deck that lays on top the joists.  Well, I am filling the square hole with 1/2 plywood to replace what rotted out.  Then I am laying the 3/4 inch dryply over the entire floor.  If I can just grab the top edge with something to keep it flexing, it should work.


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## burnham (Jan 22, 2016)

Don't sweat that junction box on the recessed light.  You access it after by removing the three or four screws that hold the "bucket" portion of the light in place, and then sliding it out of the way. There's a second cover on the junction box facing the right direction for this.   It's a PITA, but that's how recessed lights are done.  That light is no different than ones installed between finished areas.


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## vinny11950 (Jan 22, 2016)

burnham said:


> Don't sweat that junction box on the recessed light.  You access it after by removing the three or four screws that hold the "bucket" portion of the light in place, and then sliding it out of the way. There's a second cover on the junction box facing the right direction for this.   It's a PITA, but that's how recessed lights are done.  That light is no different than ones installed between finished areas.



Thanks for the tip.  Didn't notice it.


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## Buzz Saw (Jan 22, 2016)

burnham said:


> Don't sweat that junction box on the recessed light.  You access it after by removing the three or four screws that hold the "bucket" portion of the light in place, and then sliding it out of the way. There's a second cover on the junction box facing the right direction for this.   It's a PITA, but that's how recessed lights are done.  That light is no different than ones installed between finished areas.


Always wondered how to access the junction boxes on those after sheet rock was installed. 

Thanks for the info.


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## fbelec (Jan 25, 2016)

One question. What brand gfi receptacle was bad?


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## vinny11950 (Jan 26, 2016)

fbelec said:


> One question. What brand gfi receptacle was bad?



Levitron.  The $15 dollar model with the red and black test and reset buttons.


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## vinny11950 (Feb 5, 2016)

It's been going slower than expected (understatement).  The snow storm shut me down for a week and this week I was just tired and couldn't do much.

The little I could do, I used to finish the attic insulation and tidying up the wires up there.

Before:




After:




Ran into this little guy on the skylight, thought of killing it but it wasn't doing much:



Turns out to be a brown stink bug.  Hopefully one of the many spiders in the house will capture it and eat it.

Here are some pictures from earlier when I replaced all the PVC sewer drain pipes servicing the kitchen and the 2 baths.




I fixed a negative slope, replaced sanitary tees on their backs for wye combos, and added a rodding tee for future maintenance.




I screwed up my measurements a couple of times, and the heavy duty PVC cement I was using sets really fast and really hard so there was not much room for errors.  This had me cutting out some runs and redoing them.  Must have cost me around $50 in PVC fitting and a lot of bitching.




This is going to be the future project when the baths are done.




Redoing the water copper pipes.  They are old, touching the concrete wall, have very little support and the plumber who installed the water heater didn't plumb in the clean out valves.  I also have to clean up a lot of dead wires in the basement.  As I open up the ceiling sheetrock, all these unused wires are being exposed.


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## fbelec (Feb 7, 2016)

most of the 5 to 10 year old gfi receptacles i replace are leviton. most times the are brown from getting to hot. i don't put that brand in because i don't trust them and early failure. i use nothing but P+S pass and seymour. always good. all i had in my mind when i seen your before attic pic was welcome to my world. you are doing a great job doing what should have been done the first time.


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## iron (Feb 8, 2016)

looks really nice!


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## bag of hammers (Feb 9, 2016)

fbelec said:


> most of the 5 to 10 year old gfi receptacles i replace are leviton. most times the are brown from getting to hot. i don't put that brand in because i don't trust them and early failure. i use nothing but P+S pass and seymour. always good. all i had in my mind when i seen your before attic pic was welcome to my world. you are doing a great job doing what should have been done the first time.


I used Leviton switches and receptacles @20 or so years ago when doing some home re-wiring, had no problems, everything still in great shape.  But - when wiring my new place @5 years ago, I bought same the brand in bulk and these parts do not appear to be the same quality.  The light switches (Decora style) have a cheap "sticky" feel to the action.   Almost need to put your feet against the wall to unplug anything from the receptacles.  I don't know if that's a sign of crappy quality, and for the most part we use surge protectors and power bars on the gadgets, so we don't have to wrestle with them anyway, but this still makes me wonder.   I can say I've replaced a few dead GFI's from the newer stock, meanwhile all those old units are still working / testing ok.  I think this company used to manufacter out of New York before expanding / going overseas, and lots of "formerly made in North America" stuff has seen QA suffer after moving offshore - not sure if that applies here.  Maybe I'm over thinking things and way too paranoid, but I'm almost wondering if one day I'll stock up on a better brand and change all the switches and receptacles out.


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## semipro (Feb 10, 2016)

^ I've noticed the same.  Many electrical components (e.g. switches, outlets) are available in various grades and the cheapest ones are of very questionable quality.


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## vinny11950 (Feb 10, 2016)

So true.  I go buy the best price,  but it doesn't mean I want it to fail shortly after install.


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## Buzz Saw (Feb 10, 2016)

Just bought a bunch or Leviton recepticles and switches in the most "econimical" choice available.  Everything is "Made in USA".  It's even stamped in the receptical & switches.


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## fbelec (Feb 10, 2016)

i've worked the stock from 70's 80's 90's and new. the old stuff from 10 years and back are problems. they don't hold a plug or the gfi outlets never get past 5 years and they're junk but i have installed new leviton stuff and they seem to be better but we'll have to wait and see how long they last. 20 amp stock is of course better but i can say pass and seymour's low grade is better than the rest i 've been installing this brand for years and not one device ever gave me a problem. had problems with leviton, eagle, and as far as those decora from leviton they are the original makers they do have their problems. normally you push the button and when you let go the light goes off. it won't stay on. pass and Seymour is better there too. just my experience with residential.


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## bag of hammers (Feb 10, 2016)

Buzz Saw said:


> Just bought a bunch or Leviton recepticles and switches in the most "econimical" choice available.  Everything is "Made in USA".  It's even stamped in the receptical & switches.


Interesting.  They do have manufacturing facilities all over the world (I think) - maybe luck of the draw?  GFCI's made in China according to the box, I'll have to check for switches / stamps next time I'm out in the "spare parts from hell" room.  They were definitely flimsier "feeling" than the old ones - but sanity check is in order.


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## fbelec (Feb 10, 2016)

i've worked the stock from 70's 80's 90's and new. the old stuff from 10 years and back are problems. they don't hold a plug or the gfi outlets never get past 5 years and they're junk but i have installed new leviton stuff and they seem to be better but we'll have to wait and see how long they last. 20 amp stock is of course better but i can say pass and seymour's low grade is better than the rest i 've been installing this brand for years and not one device ever gave me a problem. had problems with leviton, eagle, and as far as those decora from leviton they are the original makers they do have their problems. normally you push the button and when you let go the light goes off. it won't stay on. pass and Seymour is better there too. just my experience with residential.


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## vinny11950 (Feb 13, 2016)

Okay, I must be the slowest DIY renovator ever....  But I keep hitting issues that I just can't let go and have to fix.

The latest is the floor joist under one of the bathroom walls, the wall between the master bedroom and the bathroom.

Below is a basement picture showing the floor joists under the bathroom being renovated.  After pulling some more sheetrock close to this basement window, I realize the floor joist with the red arrow (which sits under and parallel to the bathroom wall between the master bedroom and bathroom) is resting over the window, on the sill plate.





I say to myself, what are the chances they put angle iron under the sill plate to better support the floor joists?




Sure doesn't look like it.  I then measure the floor distance from bottom joist to floor, and it appears to be .25 inch lower than the other floor joists that sit over the concrete foundation wall.  I also put a level on the joist and it shows a slope on that side.  I will have to tear off more sheetrock and figure out what to do.

In the meantime, I put a support column under it.




I don't want to build the bathroom and then have that wall droop lower and create cracks in the tile walls.

Here are some pictures from earlier in the beginning when I sistered the other floor joists that had had holes put in them to run a plumbing line.  The holes were too big and too close to the bottom edge and left alone would have flexed too much under the weight of the new bathroom.


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## vinny11950 (Feb 13, 2016)

I also fixed a self inflicted error when I put in 2 x 6 studs on the wall that were twisted and a bit too wide.  I should have measure them better and inspected them more closely when purchasing them.  But at the time I just wanted to get them installed so I threw them in there.  Later I realized they didn't sit plumb with the other studs, so I had to shave them down a bit.  Figure it would be faster then pulling them and finding new ones that would fit the rest.



I also wanted to close the skylight before the arctic blast.  Having pretty much finished the work in the attic for now, I started insulating around the skylight and installing the sheetrock.






This thing was a PITA to sheetrock because of the weird angles and mismatched sizes from top to bottom.  I figured out the wooden frame around the skylight (the white wood under the window) has a groove that you fit the sheetrock into.  So I caulked the groove and then cut some angle pieces to fit into them.  Took me a few tries to get the correct angle and shape of those pieces.  All the while dangling on the ladder in a constricted space.

In the image below, you can kind of see the groove in the frame on the left edge.  Notice the gaps in the sheetrock are a bit large in places.  Best I could do.




Anyway, learned a cool trick on Youtube.  Instead of trying to get a perfect measure for the sheetrock, you let it go long, scores the extra edge and snap it off.  It gives you are clean corner.


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## Buzz Saw (Feb 13, 2016)

vinny11950 said:


> In the meantime, I put a support column under it.



If the stand doesn't get in the way could that be a permanent fix?


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## vinny11950 (Feb 13, 2016)

I am thinking of that, Buzz Saw.  At least a long short term solution until I finish the bathroom and in the spring / summer I can take that window out, build a proper frame to support the joists.  For now I don't need the space, but in the future I don't want that column in the middle of the basement.  I think.


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## semipro (Feb 14, 2016)

vinny11950 said:


> Okay, I must be the slowest DIY renovator ever...


Believe me, you're not. I know of at least one person who's slower. 
I appreciate your detailed post BTW.  Keeps me inspired.


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## bag of hammers (Feb 15, 2016)

semipro said:


> Believe me, you're not. I know of at least one person who's slower.
> I appreciate your detailed post BTW.  Keeps me inspired.


Make that at least 2 others.  My old house has beat me up pretty good....


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## vinny11950 (Feb 15, 2016)

Thanks guys!  Appreciate the support.


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## Buzz Saw (Feb 15, 2016)

My last house took me about 7 years to remodel inside and out. I ended up hiring the siding and trim work.  I just out of "go" to get stuff done, plus two little boys slow me down too.


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## vinny11950 (Feb 28, 2016)

Well, I am building this and life goes on around me.  Had to serve jury duty for a couple of days, then my arthritis kicked in and it was slower going as my wrists were shooting pains while the big storm system came through.

Went back into the attic to put the finishing touches on the skylight/bathroom ceiling insulation.

Since the skylight is framed unevenly and with the studs facing flat, I had to figure out a way to secure the insulation.  I decided to use nails sticking out to act as hooks to hold the Roxul.  Worked pretty well.  Then I tied the green rope around it all as another mechanical force to lock it into place so it doesn't fall down over time.  I then added some R30 fiberglass on the sides to cover the wire gaps and the top of the ceiling joists.


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## vinny11950 (Feb 28, 2016)

Back on ground level, I wanted to bring some more functionality to the small bathroom next to the big bathroom.  So I went about installing the wall hung sink.

The first sink I ordered arrived cracked.  Amazon was great about taking it back, just went to the website, pushed a couple of buttons and UPS came to pick it up and take it away the next day.  No issue.  While cracked, though, I mocked it up and saw how much bigger it was (bumping out the doorway a bit).




So I ordered a different, smaller model.  By the way, I did try to source these locally in an effort to give local businesses some business and thinking there was a better chance of getting undamaged porcelain.  However, the wait time on these was like 3 weeks.  So it was back to Amazon.  This time I bought the Penlyn at double the price of the other one but the right size.  It arrived in 2 days.  So I went about installing it.

It comes with a bracket that gets attached to the wall and the sink then just slides and locks onto the tabs that stick out.  I had to go to HD to find the right screw/stud to secure the bracket and I decided on studs so I can easily remove the nuts to take off the bracket when I build out the wall (which will be much later after I finish the main bathroom).




The screw below with the rubber washer holds the sink from moving up.  So the bracket holds the weight pushing down, and the screw below locks in whatever force may come up if the sink gets bumped.




I had never fully installed a sink before so it was a learning curve.  At first I planned on installing a pedestal sink, so I plumbed the drain hole standard distance from floor, which is low for a wall hung sink - I had to get an extension to reach the p trap, and I had to use the cheap looking plastic/adjustable p trap too.  Not happy with how it looks, but I can live with it until I finish it.

I also have been adding studs and blocking the walls for the seams in the cement board/drywall boards, whatever grab bar, towel bar I will install.


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## vinny11950 (Mar 4, 2016)

Mudding the skylight was (again) a PITA.  I set the corners with paper tape and the joints with fiber tape mudded in Durabond 90.  The Durabond is good stuff, sets really hard.





The Durabond sets hard pretty fast (90 minutes) and you can then layer on more, which is what I did over everything.  I did this to smooth out all the angles, and also because of the hard surface quality and moisture resistance once it sets.  Feels like plaster.

Then I gave it 2 coats of Easysand 90, until I could get close to smooth walls.  Later on I will sand it down a bit, and apply a premixed topping mud finish.





I have new found respect for drywall professionals that make it look so easy.  I was dangling on the ladder trying to get smooth lines all the while keeping my shoulders tight so I wouldn't elbow the other sides and ruin that work while still wet.

Also, you definitely want to mud while the room is stripped down, because it makes a mess.  I couldn't see doing this with the tiles on and the fixtures in place.


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## vinny11950 (Mar 4, 2016)

A couple of questions for the electricians:

1)  Should junction boxes in the attic be metal or plastic?  I used plastic for some splices but the HD clerk said they should be metal.

2) In the picture below, is the way the yellow wire is run into the metal box correct?  Could it be done better (I tried from the top but the wire really fought me)?


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## fbelec (Mar 5, 2016)

you are ok. if it were being inspected you would have to put in a knock out seal in the top of the box and the inspectors around here love to see staples. it would need a staple within 6 inches of wire out of the box. used to be a foot but i was told otherwise. like i said they are staple crazy round here. the wire fought you because you used 12 gauge wire. normally we use 14 gauge. you must of come off a 20 amp circuit. and the edges of the box has to be no more than 1/8 inch from the finish wall.         your fine the way it is.   i have had guys call me on the 1/8 inch rule. that's one of those codes they call you on when they can't find anything else.


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## vinny11950 (Mar 5, 2016)

Thanks, Frank. I bought the knockout seal anyway.

And yes, I did come off a 20 amp dedicated circuit for the bathroom.


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## hockeypuck (Mar 5, 2016)

Been reading this with popcorn in hand.  Couple of things here. 

It rarely benefits you (home owner) to buy the materials and find someone to do the labor.  I do not bring toothpaste to my dentist.  The contractors who are busy.. are busy for a reason.  They do good work.  Getting someone to bite on a job where you buy your own materials, unless they are a good friend, should set off alarm bells. Even "friends" have risks.. the jobs I used to have to clean up done by "friends" end up costing more sometime.  Also, giving a contractor parts that they are not used to working with will slow them down.. thus they will jack up the price.  Also they will figure that some materials will be missing and will also add labor for lost time.  

Looks like the bathroom is coming along great.  I just finished one last year.  It is amazing how all the costs add up.  I did a 3/4 bath, stripped down to studs and dropped almost 4k in materials. Looks like you learned a skill to move on to the electrical project. Congrats.


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## vinny11950 (Mar 18, 2016)

Sorry I haven't updated this in a while.

I decided to add another outlet to the bathroom, so I had to run wires from the outlet to the GFI.





Added the tile width to the electrical box distance from wall markers.




Here was something cool.  While in the attic, mid-day, the sun shinning on the main, pvc vent stack.

With flash:


	

		
			
		

		
	
 No flash:


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## vinny11950 (Mar 18, 2016)

Decided to do a new door because the old one was some sort of composite that was pretty beat up and was swelling at the edges beyond repair.

So I bought a Jeld Wen pre hung pine door.

I got lucky with a 62 degree sunny day which allowed me to stain it and poly it in one day.  It's a long process - 1 layer of staining and 3 layers of polyurethane.  I used the Varathena brand for the faster drying times.  To apply the poly all around at the same time, I hung the door on a tree branch.  It worked great until I went to undo the rope and let it fall!  Doh!  Scratched an edge but nothing bad.


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## vinny11950 (Mar 18, 2016)

So now I am racing to hang all the drywall so I can mud it all at once and leave it ready for painting.

This meant hanging the drywall on the door side wall.  I wanted to do one big piece with cutouts for 4 electrical boxes and the doorway.  I was dreading getting all the cuts right.  First try was with the Roto Zip.  Didn't go well - had trouble finding the outside edges of the electrical boxes and the bit kept drifting.  After 5 minutes, the drywall had cut beyond repair.  Decided to start again with a new sheet.

This time I figured I needed to make a template of some sort.  Tried cardboard, but could not find a piece big enough to cover the area.  Looked around some more and thought of the Rosin paper I have been using to cover the floors.  Perfect.  First I cut the big piece of sheetrock, then I lay the rosin paper on the side of the sheetrock that will have all the electrical boxes cuts.  Make sure to line up the long edge so the pieces will match up later on.  I also made 2 pen marks between the paper and the sheetrock as reference points when laying the paper back on the sheetrock to make the cuts.





I left the 4 gang box recessed to make more room for the fat dimmer switches (I have a big 4 gang extension sleeve) so I expected it to be behind the wall surface, however the two blue boxes, I used the wall markers on the boxes and still they seem too far back.




Anyway, as I was placing the drywall on, I remembered to apply a thick bead of caulk to the top plate to better seal the air movement into the attic space.  And those marker lines on the ceiling let me know the stud locations when hanging the drywall on the walls.




As you can see, I am applying some Safe and Sound in the walls to keep those embarrassing noises from leaving the room....

Finally, I really should take away the Rotozip from myself as I almost screwed up this board too.


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## vinny11950 (Mar 20, 2016)

!@#$%^&&# 

That moment when you go back to the basement to turn on the house water supply after doing some plumbing work in the bathroom remodel and you realize you left a water supply valve (in the same bathroom) open (the water drops falling from the first floor gave the first hint).

Doh!!  I could have kicked myself.


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## fbelec (Mar 21, 2016)

again you are doing a awesome job. don't feel bad about the rotozip. it's not easy getting use to that thing. it all in remembering that it cuts in one direction semi straight and will cut in the other direction but not as fast and it walks. i use mine so seldom that i forget.


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## bag of hammers (Mar 22, 2016)

+1 on the great job.  Don't feel bad, when I fire up my roto zip people run for cover.  You gotta run them a bit to get the knack, it can walk away on you depending on which way you run the cut.  And I also turned on the main supply valve with a bathroom supply open when I did my bathroom reno last Sept - toilet supply - caught it before it made too much mess, but still a face palm moment for me.   It just wouldn't be the same if I didn't throw in 1 or 2 stupid human tricks in my projects .


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## Buzz Saw (Mar 29, 2016)

Vinny, some where in this thread you talked about your plumbing vents.  I believe you used 3/4" or 1" pvc for vents.  Is this to code in your area?  Is this the new norm for venting?


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## vinny11950 (Mar 30, 2016)

Buzz Saw said:


> Vinny, some where in this thread you talked about your plumbing vents.  I believe you used 3/4" or 1" pvc for vents.  Is this to code in your area?  Is this the new norm for venting?



You are right, I did redo all the PVC drains.  I stuck to code on all of them except for one - the 1/2 bath sink drain.  I upgraded the drain size from 1 1/2 inch to 2 inch (as required by code), but gave it a 1 1/4 vent pipe (code requires to use next size down, so I should have used 1 1/2).  I did this because the vent pipe went through two main studs on a wall that will support heavy tiles, so I wanted to make the holes through the studs as small as possible.





My post 46 better explains this.  I installed the sink and have been using it for a few weeks without any issues.  What I am realizing as I do the work in this 1970s home is that updating it to current code is very difficult at times because current codes require different designs altogether.  In this instance, this wall should have been a 2 x 6 wall to allow more room for the plumbing.  Instead it is 2 x 4.  Don't know if it was designed like this or if someone added this 1/2 bath later on and didn't think about it.


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## mwhitnee (Mar 30, 2016)

burnham said:


> Bathrooms don't have to be on arc faults, yet.



burnam are you sure this is 100% true in MA??  This would be good news as I had a shared bedroom/bathroom circuit (wiring/addition is 14 years old) and often times when I turned on the ceiling fan in my bedroom the arc fault breaker blew and it was extremely annoying.  I replaced it with a regular breaker and all is good.  The bathroom outlet is a GFI.


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## burnham (Mar 30, 2016)

mwhitnee said:


> burnam are you sure this is 100% true in MA??  This would be good news as I had a shared bedroom/bathroom circuit (wiring/addition is 14 years old) and often times when I turned on the ceiling fan in my bedroom the arc fault breaker blew and it was extremely annoying.  I replaced it with a regular breaker and all is good.  The bathroom outlet is a GFI.



That article of code lists several areas that have to be arc-fault protected, and calls for similar areas to be protected.  It doesn't call for areas like bathrooms or basements.  It isn't very clear, but I think the intention is for living spaces and kitchens to be covered.  

 As far as your situation goes. If the circuit feeds both a bedroom and a bathroom, the circuit has to have arc fault protection if it was wired at a time arc fault breakers were required, or if there was additional wiring done during that time.  I don't think we were installing any arc fault breakers 14 years ago, did you change a regular breaker to arc fault?   Arc fault breakers can be a real pain in the ass.  I don't know a single electrician who has installed any in their own house that didn't have to.


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## mwhitnee (Mar 31, 2016)

burnham said:


> That article of code lists several areas that have to be arc-fault protected, and calls for similar areas to be protected.  It doesn't call for areas like bathrooms or basements.  It isn't very clear, but I think the intention is for living spaces and kitchens to be covered.
> 
> As far as your situation goes. If the circuit feeds both a bedroom and a bathroom, the circuit has to have arc fault protection if it was wired at a time arc fault breakers were required, or if there was additional wiring done during that time.  I don't think we were installing any arc fault breakers 14 years ago, did you change a regular breaker to arc fault?   Arc fault breakers can be a real pain in the ass.  I don't know a single electrician who has installed any in their own house that didn't have to.



It had an arc fault breaker when I moved in and I had to take it out (then used a regular breaker).  It was tripping every other time I turned the ceiling fan on. It was just so sensitive. I would have to go from the 2nd floor to the basement every time it happened.


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## vinny11950 (Apr 1, 2016)

I have yet to install any in my home, but I have read some models/brands are more sensitive than others.


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## vinny11950 (Apr 1, 2016)

Well, whatever life my trusty (6 year old) Dewalt variable speed lithium battery drill had, I spent it about 3 weeks ago.  I bent the chuck when I dropped it and the batteries don't last much now.  So with my more screws to drive, I bought a $40 Ryobi variable speed corded drill.  Plenty of constant power.

I wanted to protect the main vent stack against nails or screws, so I sistered a slightly recessed stud next to the stud to the right of the vent.  This allow me to screw in protection plates all the way down to the height of the toilet (can't see why anyone would drill back there).


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## vinny11950 (Apr 1, 2016)

Added more blocking and sound proofing to the walls.




Added the recessed toilet bracket.



	

		
			
		

		
	
 .


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## vinny11950 (Apr 1, 2016)

I was dreading mudding the walls and ceiling, but it had to be done.  Took me one day and a half.

I finished hanging up all the drywall that there will be in the bathroom, and some of the cement board to allow me to mud the corners too.







In the shower corners I used mortar (wet areas with tiles over them) and cement board fiber tape, and the rest I did with Durabond 90.




I set the corners with Durabond and tape, let it harden, then hit the corners again with Durabond.  Once that hardened, I gave it all a coat of Durabond, followed by a coat of Easysand 90.  










At the bottoms of the drywall, you see small slivers of uncoated material - I did this on purpose because that will be the transition between the drywall and cement board, covered up with tile.  And the seams get filled with thinset but you do that at the same time you tile, so it gets done in one shot.

I have to say working with hot mud is tough to do because you have to be fast to apply it before it sets.  Even after 30 minutes, the thin residue of mud that gathers on the knife begins to harden and can start to break off into the mud and gouge it as you smooth it out.  The first big coat of Durabond that I did, I mixed in that bucket (8 cups of water, about a 1 to 2.5 ratio), and I raced to apply it on the ceiling and walls.  By the bottom of the bucket it was coming up with too many hardened bits.  So I had to trash the rest.  Then I started working in smaller batches, mixing 2 cups of water in the mud pan.  That was the perfect amount to apply with enough time to make it look right.

I will let it dry, sand it a bit, and then apply a top coat.


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## vinny11950 (Apr 15, 2016)

Threw my back out for a week (while sleeping!).

When I got back to work I sanded the mud walls first with 150 grit paper - got pretty close to smooth on most parts.  What a mess drywall dust makes.  Cleaned that up, and applied the premixed top coat on the spots that looked uneven and with dimples (mostly skylight).  Not impressed with the premixed stuff because it is so soft after it dries.  My finger nail scratches it easily.  Anyway, sanded that coat down and called it a day.




Now it was time to install the 3/4 inch floor grade T&G plywood.  I went with this product that is floor specific; it has two sides 1) is coated with a waxy paint to protect against moisture during construction, and 2) the other side is regular exposed plywood.  Since I am going to install a plastic uncoupling membrane over the plywood using a modified thinset mortar, the regular plywood side has to be facing up.




For max strength, the long side of the plywood has to be perpendicular to the floor joists.  After measuring all the layout possibilities for stress points, I decided the best way to lay it down was in 3 pieces.

First I drew a grid to show me the joist runs.




Then just starting screwing around with the help of some liquid nails.




Good thing I had this long vice to help bring the T&G together (with the help of the BFH and a block of wood).













Cutting and measuring out the membrane.


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## vinny11950 (Apr 25, 2016)

Installed the bathtub and the wall niches.

For the tub, I decided to drill the screws through the flange rather than having the screws over the flange with the fender washers.  I tried it with the screws over the flange and they did not sit close enough to the wall to be below the cement board.  I used a metal drill bit and then painted it with some enameled paint a had in the basement.  I then used an unmodified mortar to bed the bottom of the tub.  Came out really strong.







Used the old water line to fill it up to full weight while I walked on it.  Really solid.


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## vinny11950 (Apr 25, 2016)

After making sure the tub was secure it was time to make sense of the shower valves to do the whole bathroom plumbing.




I am using a mixing valve and a diverter valve.  I first cut and dry fit the mixing valve which allowed me to then take the valve off and solder it on the vice.







Soldering heavy brass pieces takes more heat for longer periods to get the solder to run smooth.  I felt more comfortable doing it on the vice.

Once it cooled I set it on the wall and started setting up the remaining connections.







Plumbed in some connections for a couple of arrestors just for the hell of it (go big or go home).










Making all the connections was tougher than expected because the L type copper pipes I got at HD where really tight fits into the fittings.  On top of cutting, deburring and polishing the connections, I had to sand them down enough so as to fit them together.  Took me about 12 hours to be able to turn on the water again.  Thought I would be done by 6pm the latest and finished around 11pm.  This also included the plumbing for the toilet and sink.  I kept walking up and down to the basement making sure nothing shifted - the one time I didn't the toilet supply pipe had rolled in the joint after I soldered it and was crooked - had to cut it out and reset it.

Luckily no leaks... so far....


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## Lake Girl (Apr 25, 2016)

vinny11950 said:


> What a mess drywall dust makes.


That's why you get the vacuum sanding block for your shop vac and leave water in the bottom of the vac to trap the dust.    Sorry I was too late with the advice but for next time


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## vinny11950 (Apr 25, 2016)

Lake Girl said:


> vacuum sanding block for your shop vac and leave water in the bottom of the vac to trap the dust.



It didn't even occur to me to think of such a contraption.  Thanks for the advice, Lake Girl, I will use it next time (there is always something to patch.)


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## vinny11950 (Sep 20, 2016)

Haven't updated this for a while partly because I was sick of the project and because my camera started malfunctioning and would only take good pictures once in a while.

I used a rubbery membrane, used for window waterproofing, to protect against water getting thru the cement board and bathtub lip/flange.







Then I hung cement board on the shower walls,top to bottom, and on the bottom half of the outside walls which got covered with tile too.




I put on the shower valves to test that the valve bodies were not set too far back in the wall studs.  They were not.  Had they been, now would have been the time to move them.

Then I used quick set mortar to tape and mud the joints.  They say it helps prevent tile cracking.  Cutting all the holes in the cement board for the fixtures was a PITA too but I got pretty good at measuring the cuts and then using a jig saw to cut them outside on a couple of saw horses.  I only screwed up one piece - off by 1/2 an inch (story of my life )


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## vinny11950 (Sep 20, 2016)

Then I started applying the liquid waterproofing membrane (Hydro ban by Laticrete) on the shower walls.  Quality stuff.

On the corners and around the niche borders I also used the anti fracture fiberglass fabric.










The membrane is supposed to have a specified thickness range which can be measured using a gauge (which I didn't have) or by eyeballing the surface to see if any of the cb writing can be seen thru the membrane (it should not be visible).  As you can see, if you look closely, the writing at the top 1/3 can be vaguely seen and that is because I was running out of the liquid and sacrificed some from the top (which shouldn't get much water) to apply it at the bottom 2/3s (which will get most of the water).

Then I started tiling.










I had bought the wall tiles months ago.  I thought it would be simple enough to cut them.  I was wrong.  The tile is thick and really hard, so when scoring and snapping them, they would break off unevenly.  I wasted about 3 boxes of tiles because of this.  In hind sight, I should have bought a few samples and tried cutting them first.  This would have led me to find another tile.  Anyway, I made it happen.


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## vinny11950 (Sep 20, 2016)

Even after everything was tiled, it still took me a few more weeks to grout and hang all the fixtures.




Getting the toilet installed was a symbolic moment of triumph as this whole project started because the old toilet was cracked and the floor below rotted out.  I tried patching it but the surrounding tiles just came off.










Drilling through the thick tile was a pain.  20 minutes a whole (spraying water on the bit and all).


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## vinny11950 (Sep 20, 2016)

The wall tiling is not perfect.  It has lippage and some odd small pieces, but for a DIY project it is good enough.  I am happy the bathroom is waterproofed correctly, the framing above the bathroom fixed, the insulation added, plumbing new, and electrical fixed right.

It took me much longer than expected.  So the basement bathroom was a life saver allowing for the master bath to be out of service for so long.  The Liberty sewage pump I installed in the basement bathroom sewage tank last summer performed like a champ.

Things I would do differently:

1) Like I said, I would have picked an easier tile to work with for the walls.

2) I bought my mortars ahead of time thinking I would save time, but as the project stretched out in time some of the mortars reached their expiration dates so I had to dump them (better safe than sorry).

3) I forgot to make sure the floor tiles under the toilet were perfectly even so my toilet rocked a tiny bit so I had to shim it and silicone it.

All good in the end.


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## vinny11950 (Sep 20, 2016)

I forgot to add a big thank you to all that advised and supported me with this project.  Could not have done it without it, especially the electrical guys.


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## firefighterjake (Sep 21, 2016)

My father-in-law used to say that oftentimes projects would not be perfect and that typically the guy doing the job would be the only one to notice any flaws . . . 

He also would say if a person did notice any flaws, oftentimes they were looking for problems since so often the flaws the builder sees are not always so obvious to anyone else.

I think your bathroom came out quite nice.


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## sportbikerider78 (Sep 21, 2016)

Working on my own bathroom remodel as well.  It is coming together!  Heated floor tile.  Granite bench and curbs. Small stone slate floor.  When it is done, I'll post up some pics.  

Ripped the room to the studs.  Reframed.  Replumbed everything.  Did a ton of wiring.  Lots of fun.


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## vinny11950 (Sep 21, 2016)

firefighterjake said:


> My father-in-law used to say that oftentimes projects would not be perfect and that typically the guy doing the job would be the only one to notice any flaws . . .
> 
> He also would say if a person did notice any flaws, oftentimes they were looking for problems since so often the flaws the builder sees are not always so obvious to anyone else.
> 
> I think your bathroom came out quite nice.




Thanks Jake.  I guess it's a bit like cooking a big meal - in the end every one thinks it tastes great while you think it's just okay.


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## vinny11950 (Sep 21, 2016)

sportbikerider78 said:


> Working on my own bathroom remodel as well.  It is coming together!  Heated floor tile.  Granite bench and curbs. Small stone slate floor.  When it is done, I'll post up some pics.
> 
> Ripped the room to the studs.  Reframed.  Replumbed everything.  Did a ton of wiring.  Lots of fun.
> View attachment 184234
> View attachment 184235



Looks really nice.  How's that bench supported?


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## sportbikerider78 (Sep 21, 2016)

On 3 sides by the cement board, mortar and tile that it rests on.  It is a proven technique...and has the benefit of not having a box to make and gives a more open look.  Plus, you don't have to worry about any water getting into the box and causing an issue.  The entire shower is completely sealed 2 x with waterproofing.


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## fbelec (Sep 23, 2016)

both of you have nice bathrooms. great looking. thank god my wife doesn't see this. i have enough things to do


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## sportbikerider78 (Sep 23, 2016)

fbelec said:


> both of you have nice bathrooms. great looking. thank god my wife doesn't see this. i have enough things to do



When I did my own inspection of this bathroom 3 years ago when I bought the house, I noticed the shower wall was loose and had moisture issues.  I told them, I'd have to redo the entire tiling job,,,I want $5k off the cost of the house.  They said ok..and that is certainly helping pay for it.


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## fbelec (Sep 24, 2016)

sportbikerider78 said:


> When I did my own inspection of this bathroom 3 years ago when I bought the house, I noticed the shower wall was loose and had moisture issues.  I told them, I'd have to redo the entire tiling job,,,I want $5k off the cost of the house.  They said ok..and that is certainly helping pay for it.



i did the same thing when i bought this house 15 years ago. it needed a boiler. things were growing from the boiler that was about 2 feet long leaking ever so slightly but a flood waiting to happen. she got a price of 6000 and we agreed on her giving me a check for 3000 so no rolling into the loan and bought state of the art boiler at that time with all the pumps and check valves and everything new for about 2600 my cost at my boiler supply house and bartered with my friend a plumber. he installed my boiler i did some rewiring of his 1850 farm house


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