# Whats your opinion of the GM volt electric car?



## Seasoned Oak

Weigh in on the GM volt. Yes its expensive but for those who dont mind leasing ,its available for $349 a month from some dealers. I feel that leasing is a good option cuz in 3 years there will likely be much better range from batteries, more selection of models ect ect. and you wont want to be stuck with "old" technology if you would have purchased the car outright.The last car i leased was $333 a month and i saved a fortune in trade in losses cuz the residual value dropped faster than usual.


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## billb3

I think it's an extremely practical design.
I also believe if the economy wasn't weak it's target market would be absorbing more of them.

They  need the next generation to address the Yaris/Prius C market.
Probably not there yet for building costs.


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## Dune

I think you need to do the math. 
I hate to say this, as I am a proponent of electric cars, as well as a GM fan, but it has to make sense. 
How many miles are you allowed to drive on the lease? 
I think it is 12k/year. 
So, 1000 miles for $350 plus tax or 35 cents a mile plus fuel. 
Do the math, is it worth it?
I did the math on trading in my wife's (paid for) car, and even with free electricity, it didn't work out for me. 
I am going to give it another year, and calculate again based on next years gas prices. 

Other than the economy of making payments or buying gasoline, I think the Volt is a great start and a great car.
Some will go with the Leaf due to it's longer all electric range, but for the average driver (30 miles a day) the Volt's 40 mile electric range could allow one to drive without routinely having to by gas, yet at the same time, be able to drive hundreds of miles in a day, if need be. 
Jay Leno has one with 10K miles on it without a gasoline fill yet.


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## Jags

I look at it from a "gotta start somewhere" point of view.  Is it perfect -no.  Should it be subsidized - probably not.  Do I think its a good idea - yep.  Gotta start somewhere.  As PV panels become cheaper per watt, electric cars on the road, building codes improved, conservation happens, etc... we are at a turning point.  The only bad part is that we should have been doing this in earnest years ago. 

I would love to have a 10,000 Watt PV array in my yard and an electric car in my garage.


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## oldspark

A while back I read the specs. on it and thoght they missed the mark by a mile.


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## Prosecond

Do we really need a coal powered car?


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## Dune

Prosecond said:
			
		

> Do we really need a coal powered car?



Right now, coal accounts for less than 45% of electricity generation, and is dropping fast. Additonaly, it is domestic coal, not imported oil, and as Jags pointed out, some people can generate their own electricity. Not many people can make their own gasoline.


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## oldspark

This article is a little over the top but has some valid points in it, I agree we have to start some where but the Volt has a short in it.
http://listofsuck.com/the-chevy-volt-sucks/


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## Dune

oldspark said:
			
		

> This article is a little over the top but has some valid points in it, I agree we have to start some where but the Volt has a short in it.
> http://listofsuck.com/the-chevy-volt-sucks/



Well gee, that was full of crap. How about some valid reasons, if you have any? 
Have you driven or even seen a volt?


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## Jags

The deal is - it's not for everybody.  If you work 50 miles one way from home, not the right car.  You work 4.5 miles across town, it might be a contender.  Dang, if it had to be perfect out of the gate we would still not have electricity, cars, computers, etc.....

I really don't have any lost love for the Volt. Cost, tax breaks, short range is a couple of reasons, but it will fit the bill for a segment of the population.  GOTTA START SOMEWHERE.


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## jimbom

Thirty years ago all electric cars were in fleets wide and far.  I drove one a couple of times in Hawaii.  I am suspect their demise was the battery.  Useless to keep wasting money on these production cars until the battery problem is solved.

There is a solar car race every other year fostered by the DOE.  The cars are cutting edge race cars.  Why?  I have no idea.

If they would change the criteria for the cars to sixty mile range commuter vehicles, we as a country might develop something.  But that practical approach would make sense.  Something woefully lacking in DOE.

I donate money every year to a solar car team.  
http://solarcar.mst.edu/solarcar/solarcar.html
I would continue to do that, even give more, if they were building commuter cars.


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## peakbagger

As a concept it has its detractions. Currently when you buy gas, you are paying for upkeep of the roads via the gas tax. In the short term, state and federal governments are not worried about electrics but if they get much market share be ready for $ per mile tax (used in other countries already). Insurance is usually based on replacement cost so it will be roughly double that of a honda fit or similiar high mileage gas car. NH has an excise tax of 1.8 % for the frist year that slowly ramps down over several years. It would be based on the purchase price not including rebate so $700 per year instead of $350 per year cost. For folks who pay sale tax on vehicles, they pay double the upfron sales tax. 

I have seen many comparisions on electric vehicles and the usual outcome is if you need a commuter car that is within the range of an electric buy the cheapest one. When you want to go on a trip rent a regular gas vehicle. The volt like the the prir GM electric, EV1, were both built ot keep the government happy, they never would have been built bases on cost or loss.


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## Seasoned Oak

Dune said:
			
		

> oldspark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This article is a little over the top but has some valid points in it, I agree we have to start some where but the Volt has a short in it.
> http://listofsuck.com/the-chevy-volt-sucks/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well gee, that was full of crap. How about some valid reasons, if you have any?
> Have you driven or even seen a volt?
Click to expand...


For me (and many others)its not always about "how soon can this car pay for itself. Does any car pay for itself except a taxi? 
People pay 40-50- 60K for cars and trucks all the time. There is no payback with any of them,only depreciation. 
LIke i said the last car i leased was 333 a month,with no payback of any kind there,the volt at $349 a month at least does have other redeeming qualities besides paying for itself.
Its a pretty hi tech machine. When gas hits $5 they probably wont be available at $349 anymore.


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## jensent

Not a GM fan. While maybe not for everyone our Gen III Prius has been great for three yrs. Check it out!
Tom


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## Seasoned Oak

jensent said:
			
		

> Not a GM fan. While maybe not for everyone our Gen III Prius has been great for three yrs. Check it out!
> Tom


Not a toyota fan


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## RowCropRenegade

Personally, I'd rather burn more fuel (cause I'm saving it by heating the house with wood).  You need to read up on these cars "bricking".  Basically if you let the charge go to zero on these cars because of vacation, incompetence, whatever they become a brick.  Meaning you will have to pay 30,000 for repairs and a new battery core.  I'd steer clear of the Volt.  Nothing more than another Green fad from the obummer czar admistration.

(I'm a chevy fan)


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## RowCropRenegade

I may be wrong.... Could be the Telsa car that "bricks".  Either way, I'd avoid the electric car.


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## Dune

Seasoned Oak said:
			
		

> Dune said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> oldspark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This article is a little over the top but has some valid points in it, I agree we have to start some where but the Volt has a short in it.
> http://listofsuck.com/the-chevy-volt-sucks/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well gee, that was full of crap. How about some valid reasons, if you have any?
> Have you driven or even seen a volt?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> For me (and many others)its not always about "how soon can this car pay for itself. Does any car pay for itself except a taxi?
> People pay 40-50- 60K for cars and trucks all the time. There is no payback with any of them,only depreciation.
> LIke i said the last car i leased was 333 a month,with no payback of any kind there,the volt at $349 a month at least does have other redeeming qualities besides paying for itself.
> Its a pretty hi tech machine. When gas hits $5 they probably wont be available at $349 anymore.
Click to expand...


I would certainly like a new Volt.


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## Dune

peakbagger said:
			
		

> As a concept it has its detractions. Currently when you buy gas, you are paying for upkeep of the roads via the gas tax. In the short term, state and federal governments are not worried about electrics but if they get much market share be ready for $ per mile tax (used in other countries already). Insurance is usually based on replacement cost so it will be roughly double that of a honda fit or similiar high mileage gas car. NH has an excise tax of 1.8 % for the frist year that slowly ramps down over several years. It would be based on the purchase price not including rebate so $700 per year instead of $350 per year cost. For folks who pay sale tax on vehicles, they pay double the upfron sales tax.
> 
> I have seen many comparisions on electric vehicles and the usual outcome is if you need a commuter car that is within the range of an electric buy the cheapest one. When you want to go on a trip rent a regular gas vehicle. The volt like the the prir GM electric, EV1, were both built ot keep the government happy, they never would have been built bases on cost or loss.



You don't need to rent a car to go on trips if you have a Volt.


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## Seasoned Oak

Rowcroprenegade
Were all guilty of exaggerating at one time or another but $30000 to repair or replace a $8000 battery is a lot of labor.Besides the battery is warranted for 8 years and 100000 miles, long after a lease is up.


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## Seasoned Oak

I would have to lease anyway cuz i dont pay anywhere near $7500 in income taxes each year as many retired or semi-retired people do not as well,so i could not take the rebate without leasing. The lease agency gets it and is able to deduct it from the lease.


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## SolarAndWood

Runs on electricity around town and gets 40 on the highway?  Seems like a winner to me.  I could see a 10,000W PV system on the roof and a Volt in the garage this year.  I'd go from having to carry two credit cards to fill the Suburban to rarely having to even get gas.  Not sure how the math works out, but I'm not sure it makes sense without PV with our electric rates.


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## btuser

Electric cars are great but the tax man cometh.  Sooner or later someone's going to have to pay for the roads we're all using.  I can see truckers getting pissed as their prices keep going up while they're stuck behind a Leaf in the slow lane doing 45mph. 

They're coming.  I can't wait.  I'm a perfect candidate because I live 7 miles from work and rarely travel more than 40 miles/day.  But I already drive the best kind of car:  The kind someone else pays for!


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## oldspark

Dune said:
			
		

> Seasoned Oak said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dune said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> oldspark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This article is a little over the top but has some valid points in it, I agree we have to start some where but the Volt has a short in it.
> http://listofsuck.com/the-chevy-volt-sucks/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well gee, that was full of crap. How about some valid reasons, if you have any?
> Have you driven or even seen a volt?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> For me (and many others)its not always about "how soon can this car pay for itself. Does any car pay for itself except a taxi?
> People pay 40-50- 60K for cars and trucks all the time. There is no payback with any of them,only depreciation.
> LIke i said the last car i leased was 333 a month,with no payback of any kind there,the volt at $349 a month at least does have other redeeming qualities besides paying for itself.
> Its a pretty hi tech machine. When gas hits $5 they probably wont be available at $349 anymore.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I would certainly like a new Volt.
Click to expand...

 Well it wont work for me, I hope it works for you, been driving small cars for a long time and I wont pay 40 thousand for a new car.


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## oldspark

Dune said:
			
		

> oldspark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This article is a little over the top but has some valid points in it, I agree we have to start some where but the Volt has a short in it.
> http://listofsuck.com/the-chevy-volt-sucks/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well gee, that was full of crap. How about some valid reasons, if you have any?
> Have you driven or even seen a volt?
Click to expand...

 What is it that you dont understand, the range is limited, its expensive and not selling worth a crap so I guess I am not the only one thinking they could do better.


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## SolarAndWood

oldspark said:
			
		

> I wont pay 40 thousand for a new car.



I wouldn't pay 40 either but the $7500 makes it reasonably competitive.  And, after a few years of tax credits to develop the product, Toyota didn't need them to be able to convince me to by a Camry hybrid.  Same price and power as the V6 but 1/3 plus better mpg.  I hope Chevy takes advantage of the subsidy and makes the platform work.


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## begreen

Dune brings up good points too. An armchair opinion is just that. It's not based on experience. Really, I can't believe the linked blog was even brought up. It's impossible to take seriously. The guy is an blowhard ranter. FWIW, when we bought our Prius, the press was throwing all sorts of crap at it. Funny how they changed their tune for the same car a few years later. The rant about the $7500 credit is silly, it does not just apply to the Volt. It's an incentive for all electric cars. 

The Volt's range is excellent for a lot of commuters. It would be great for us. And it's range is negotiable by switching over to gas. So let's say one's commute is 60 miles. What is wrong with having 2/3ds of your commute at a significantly cleaner and much lower cost? Note that while the generator is running, you are still getting good mileage. They have done a lot right with this car. It handles well, performance and safety are very good and it's quite versatile. My main gripes are that it only seats 4 and it is high-priced. Still, I hope to try one out someday soon. If it was 4wd I would probably buy one. But it looks like for 4wd I will have to wait a year to see how the Mitsubishi or Subaru plugin hybrids perform.


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## oldspark

I thought the link was sorta funny and made a few good points, let me do the math for ya, 25 to 50 mile range on the battery, what do you think happens to the range if you have to defrost the windows and heat the car, it gets 35 to 40 miles a gallon on the highway for 40 grand, I paid 14,800 (a little higher now) out the door for my Honda fit that get close to 40  so why would I buy this car, so I can call myself green.


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## MarkinNC

I think I would by a diesel truck or 2 Prius's instead.  It's price point is unrealistic.  Every financial expert I have ever read recommends against leasing which I guess is the only way GM could try and bring it to market in an affordable manner.  The Volt is bureaucratically driven, not market driven like a Prius or Honda hybrid.

I personally think diesel electric hybrids have the most potential as far a reducing energy consumption, but I seem to be a minority on this one.  If PV ever becomes affordable, this could change the dynamic dramatically!


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## ScotO

While these electric cars may be a step in the right direction (as far as getting away from fossil fuels is concerned) it is in the WRONG direction at the same time.  I truly think that hydrogen cars would be the way to go, but that won't happen because big oil and fossil fuel owns our country.  And until that goes away, you will just either have to spend 40000 dollars on an electric car and plug it into an outlet that is being charged by fossil fuel fired generators or go and spend a sh!tload of money on gas in your 500 dollar work-beater car.  The whole system SUCKS, and will continue to do so until the chain is broken.


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## Regency139

MarkinNC said:
			
		

> I think I would by a diesel truck or 2 Prius's instead.  It's price point is unrealistic.  Every financial expert I have ever read recommends against leasing which I guess is the only way GM could try and bring it to market in an affordable manner.  The Volt is bureaucratically driven, not market driven like a Prius or Honda hybrid.
> 
> I personally think diesel electric hybrids have the most potential as far a reducing energy consumption, but I seem to be a minority on this one.  If PV ever becomes affordable, this could change the dynamic dramatically!



Hopefully VW follows through with this one.  Diesel, AWD (except in electric mode), and a hybrid.  

http://content.usatoday.com/communi...diesel-off-road-hybrid-concept/1#.T1q6dvF5mSM


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## begreen

oldspark said:
			
		

> I thought the link was sorta funny and made a few good points, let me do the math for ya, 25 to 50 mile range on the battery, what do you think happens to the range if you have to defrost the windows and heat the car, it gets 35 to 40 miles a gallon on the highway for 40 grand, I paid 14,800 (a little higher now) out the door for my Honda fit that get close to 40  so why would I buy this car, so I can call myself green.



Because it gets 100+ mpg running on electric and greater than 60mpg on many combined runs. It may be a bad fit for you, but that doesn't mean it's a bad car.


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## begreen

MarkinNC said:
			
		

> I think I would by a diesel truck or 2 Prius's instead.  It's price point is unrealistic.  Every financial expert I have ever read recommends against leasing which I guess is the only way GM could try and bring it to market in an affordable manner.  The Volt is bureaucratically driven, not market driven like a Prius or Honda hybrid.
> 
> I personally think diesel electric hybrids have the most potential as far a reducing energy consumption, but I seem to be a minority on this one.  If PV ever becomes affordable, this could change the dynamic dramatically!



Not at all. Peugot/Citroen has a 4wd, diesel hybrid concept that sounds great. 
http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/26233/
http://www.peugeot.com/en/products/cars/3008hybrid4.aspx


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## oldspark

BeGreen said:
			
		

> oldspark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I thought the link was sorta funny and made a few good points, let me do the math for ya, 25 to 50 mile range on the battery, what do you think happens to the range if you have to defrost the windows and heat the car, it gets 35 to 40 miles a gallon on the highway for 40 grand, I paid 14,800 (a little higher now) out the door for my Honda fit that get close to 40  so why would I buy this car, so I can call myself green.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because it gets 100+ mpg running on electric and greater than 60mpg on many combined runs. It may be a bad fit for you, but that doesn't mean it's a bad car.
Click to expand...

 Its too expensive, thats why they halted production, thats why they are not selling well, somebody stop me.


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## RowCropRenegade

Seasoned Oak, my mistake, the cost was 40k!  As you can see, not an over estimation.  Telsa Roadster.

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/...hicle-at-risk-of-bricking-know-the-facts.html


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## begreen

I don't disagree with that point, but all the other points are weak. Toyota understood price point and sold the first Prius at a loss. If Chevy dropped the price by $10K, the Volt could be a runaway best seller.


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## SolarAndWood

Probably wouldn't even take $10K with the $7500 tax credit and 0% for 60 months.  Getting it into the mid to high 20s with 0% would probably do it.


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## oldspark

Hopefully they will get the battery problems worked out.


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## btuser

It takes a lot of carbon to make 7500k, let alone the carbon in production.  If you factor the cost that way my stinky ol' truck is way cleaner than any Prius or Volt.  

I bet if you factored in methane production, your average car is less polluting than your average horse.


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## Jack768

If it depended on actual willing purchasers rather than Washington handouts and politically-motivated government sales, it would have been discontinued by now.  As is, I'd be amazed if they're making them in two years.  Sales have been abysmal.


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## btuser

LIJack said:
			
		

> If it depended on actual willing purchasers rather than Washington handouts and politically-motivated government sales, it would have been discontinued by now.  As is, I'd be amazed if they're making them in two years.  Sales have been abysmal.



I'm not into the save-the-world reasons for it, but I am in favor of government sponsorship of new technology.  The best thing we can do for this country's long-term health is learn how to do more with less.  We piss away billions every year on programs worth much less.  I'd get rid of the prescription drug benefit before this subsidy.  Don't look at it as the purchase of a single automobile, but rather seed money for a new industry.   It's worth it, and we do less with more in other areas.


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## MarkinNC

BeGreen said:
			
		

> MarkinNC said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think I would by a diesel truck or 2 Prius's instead.  It's price point is unrealistic.  Every financial expert I have ever read recommends against leasing which I guess is the only way GM could try and bring it to market in an affordable manner.  The Volt is bureaucratically driven, not market driven like a Prius or Honda hybrid.
> 
> I personally think diesel electric hybrids have the most potential as far a reducing energy consumption, but I seem to be a minority on this one.  If PV ever becomes affordable, this could change the dynamic dramatically!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not at all. Peugot/Citroen has a 4wd, diesel hybrid concept that sounds great.
> http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/26233/
> http://www.peugeot.com/en/products/cars/3008hybrid4.aspx
Click to expand...


I should have qualified my statement to reflect I seem to be a minority in the US of A.  I long for the diesel cars and trucks of Europe and diesel hybrids...wow.  Just a purely diesel platform makes more since to me as well, but that is a different topic.


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## Corey

I'm all for domestic energy, not really a 'fan' of ay specific car...as long as it gets the job done.  But, Volt really doesn't make sense for me...I'm averaging 28mpg and making ~400hp with an engine I custom built for E85.  Given E85 is generally running about $2.95/gallon, that is barely 10 cents per mile, for a very high performance engine. 

The Volt lease would be 3.5x that right out of the gate, then I still have to feed it electricity.  And sadly, even though the volt uses cutting edge battery technology, the range and power just aren't there.   If any OEM would actually build a state-of-the-art E85 engine, it's pretty easy to have excellent performance and diesel-like (or better) mpg.


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## oldspark

I just think they got carried away with it, make it cheaper and work on the range in electric mode and put in a smaller gas engine, an electric car in cold areas has issues with heating and defrosting sucking the battery down in a hurry, they already designed a special sound system for it. You have to walk before you can run, make a good basic simple car with a good range and better gas milage and go from there, 5 dollar gas and you will sell them, hell Geo Metros will sell with 5 dollar gas.


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## Seasoned Oak

Waiting until the cost of gasoline and diesel fuel wreck the economy is not a solution either. IM all for NG conversion as well. A fuel that is available right now at a cost of $1-$2 a gallon equivalent for gas is something we can all live with im sure ,not to mention the super clean exhaust. THe volt is not for everyone and is not perfect but id say its in the top 5 of solutions available TODAY. THe main problem with gasoline is it doesnt have any competition YET!


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## Seasoned Oak

All the uninformed bozos in the media sensationalizing a battery fire 3 weeks after an accident did not help sales either,as if gasoline is not flammable DURING an accident let alone 3 weeks later. THe prius was pretty slow out of the gate as well when it was first introduced.


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## Seasoned Oak

MarkinNC said:
			
		

> I think I would by a diesel truck or 2 Prius's instead.  It's price point is unrealistic.  Every financial expert I have ever read recommends against leasing which I guess is the only way GM could try and bring it to market in an affordable manner.  The Volt is bureaucratically driven, not market driven like a Prius or Honda hybrid.
> 
> I personally think diesel electric hybrids have the most potential as far a reducing energy consumption, but I seem to be a minority on this one.  If PV ever becomes affordable, this could change the dynamic dramatically!



Leasing make sense in several situations,it did for me
1. If your lease depreciates quickly you could come out a few thousand ahead after 3 years. Lease co. or car co. takes the loss not you. (happened to me twice)  
2.You want to drive a new car every 3 years. (trading in is very costly)
3.You are driving NEW technology which is likely to improve greatly in 3 years.(such as electric car range,cost ect)
4.Often the monthly Pmt is quite a bit less,your not financing sales tax and residual value on the vehicles entire cost, just the first 3 years.


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## Dune

oldspark said:
			
		

> Hopefully they will get the battery problems worked out.



Really? What battery problems?


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## Seasoned Oak

They need only to get the misinformation worked out.


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## Dune

Obama anounced yesterday that the credit for alternative fuel cars will be increased to 10K, and that the credit can now go directly to the dealer. 
If the dealers can use the credit as a down payment sales may pick up quite a bit.


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## oldspark

Dune said:
			
		

> oldspark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully they will get the battery problems worked out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really? What battery problems?
Click to expand...

 Might have been an overblown media CF, a fire in one that had been wrecked so they pulled some off the road to look at the problem, some owners are not happy with the situation, this was back in Dec 2011.


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## rkshed

Whether we want to or not, we all own a VOLT thanks to the bailouts.


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## rkusek

Dune said:
			
		

> I think you need to do the math.
> I hate to say this, as I am a proponent of electric cars, as well as a GM fan, but it has to make sense.
> How many miles are you allowed to drive on the lease?
> I think it is 12k/year.
> So, 1000 miles for $350 plus tax or 35 cents a mile plus fuel.
> Do the math, is it worth it?
> I did the math on trading in my wife's (paid for) car, and even with free electricity, it didn't work out for me.
> I am going to give it another year, and calculate again based on next years gas prices.
> 
> Other than the economy of making payments or buying gasoline, I think the Volt is a great start and a great car.
> Some will go with the Leaf due to it's longer all electric range, but for the average driver (30 miles a day) the Volt's 40 mile electric range could allow one to drive without routinely having to by gas, yet at the same time, be able to drive hundreds of miles in a day, if need be.
> Jay Leno has one with 10K miles on it without a gasoline fill yet.



A few of us at work were kicking the idea around that since our company like others wants to advertise their "green ness" they could provide charging in the parking lot (even charge a little to cover the juice used) and it could be recharged in 3hrs on 240V I believe.  This would effectively cover almost anyone's needs plus you still have the gasoline to cover anything unexpected.   Since the wife and I work somewhat opposite shifts most of the time and could both drive it to work we could probably replace at least 120 gals of gas a month.  If $5 gas is here to stay it definitely could be promising provided we could re-charge it at work.


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## Dune

huskers said:
			
		

> Dune said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think you need to do the math.
> I hate to say this, as I am a proponent of electric cars, as well as a GM fan, but it has to make sense.
> How many miles are you allowed to drive on the lease?
> I think it is 12k/year.
> So, 1000 miles for $350 plus tax or 35 cents a mile plus fuel.
> Do the math, is it worth it?
> I did the math on trading in my wife's (paid for) car, and even with free electricity, it didn't work out for me.
> I am going to give it another year, and calculate again based on next years gas prices.
> 
> Other than the economy of making payments or buying gasoline, I think the Volt is a great start and a great car.
> Some will go with the Leaf due to it's longer all electric range, but for the average driver (30 miles a day) the Volt's 40 mile electric range could allow one to drive without routinely having to by gas, yet at the same time, be able to drive hundreds of miles in a day, if need be.
> Jay Leno has one with 10K miles on it without a gasoline fill yet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A few of us at work were kicking the idea around that since our company like others wants to advertise their "green ness" they could provide charging in the parking lot (even charge a little to cover the juice used) and it could be recharged in 3hrs on 240V I believe.  This would effectively cover almost anyone's needs plus you still have the gasoline to cover anything unexpected.   Since the wife and I work somewhat opposite shifts most of the time and could both drive it to work we could probably replace at least 120 gals of gas a month.  If $5 gas is here to stay it definitely could be promising provided we could re-charge it at work.
Click to expand...


Exactly. Even on 120 volts the car would be mostly recharged by the end of a work day. 
For many employers this might also be a lot cheaper if they are providing a company car and gas card.


----------



## rkusek

jensent said:
			
		

> Not a GM fan. While maybe not for everyone our Gen III Prius has been great for three yrs. Check it out!
> Tom



Other than some energy saved from regenerative braking what is the Prius saving?  I've never understood why these are so popular except if you want to be a green wannabee.  Doesn't a similar sized conventional gas powered Toyota or Honda get the same mileage with a lot less cost and less things that can break?  Same kind of reasoning for the Nissan Leaf (all electric, no backup) when you have to go a few more miles than planned.  Not very practical for the average family.  At least the Volt can leverage cheap electricity that we still have in many parts of the US.


----------



## WES999

I remember reading an article in a car mag some years ago when the first hybrids came out.
Basically it came the the conclusion you would have to drive it for 17 years to make up for the increased price. Probably not all that much has changed. It seems that with a hybrid you are paying twice as much for a 20-25 mpg improvement. Unless I am missing something I don't see how makes sense to purchase one.


----------



## Dune

WES999 said:
			
		

> I remember reading an article in a car mag some years ago when the first hybrids came out.
> Basically it came the the conclusion you would have to drive it for 17 years to make up for the increased price. Probably not all that much has changed. It seems that with a hybrid you are paying twice as much for a 20-25 mpg improvement. Unless I am missing something I don't see how makes sense to purchase one.



To be clear the Volt is not a hybrid. It is a plug in electric with an on board generator. A hybrid uses both electric and gas motors for propulsion. The distinction is important.
In the case of the Volt, one in the right circumstances could easily never buy gas. Not so with the hybrid, and unlike an all electric car such as the Leaf, the Volt never needs to stop to recharge, if traveling long distances is the order of the day. It took me almost a year to come to grips with how really well this car was designed.

Nice tidbit; the Volt can be set up to preheat the cab while charging in cold weather.


----------



## GaryGary

huskers said:
			
		

> jensent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not a GM fan. While maybe not for everyone our Gen III Prius has been great for three yrs. Check it out!
> Tom
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Other than some energy saved from regenerative braking what is the Prius saving?  I've never understood why these are so popular except if you want to be a green wannabee.  Doesn't a similar sized conventional gas powered Toyota or Honda get the same mileage with a lot less cost and less things that can break?  Same kind of reasoning for the Nissan Leaf (all electric, no backup) when you have to go a few more miles than planned.  Not very practical for the average family.  At least the Volt can leverage cheap electricity that we still have in many parts of the US.
Click to expand...


Hi,
The Prius is more also more efficient because the engine uses the Atkinson cycle -- its able to use this more efficient cycle because the hybrid drive train allows it to more of a constant output engine because it has the electric motor to help even out the load.  There are also all sorts of strategies for running the gas engine less than a conventional car and when it is running, running it at an operating point where it is efficient.

In addition, in the case of Prius, Toyota worked a lot on weight and drag coefficient -- the whole package of hybrid power train, low weight, and low drag works together to make a really efficient car.  Even though its been out 10 years, there just does not seem to be anything in its mid-size class that is close.

If you look at this listing of "sedans" from www.FuelEconomy.gov: http://fueleconomy.gov/feg/PowerSea...=Family+Sedans,Large+Sedans&srchtyp=newMarket

The cars are listed in order of combined fuel economy.

- First on the list is the Prius at 50 mpg combined.

- Next follow a whole list of hybrids.

- First non-hybrid VW Passat diesel at 35 mpg combined -- so, even using diesel with 10% more energy content per gallon, its 30% down on mpg.

- The first non-hybrid gasoline car is the Hyundai Elantra at 33 mpg combined -- same size the Prius and down 34% on mpg.

- The Toyota Camry (same total interior volume as Prius) gets 28 mpg combined -- down 44% from Prius on mpg.

I'm a bit prejudiced on this (we are on our 2nd Prius), but these are our experiences with the first Prius:
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Vehicles/ourprius.htm


Gary


----------



## SolarAndWood

WES999 said:
			
		

> It seems that with a hybrid you are paying twice as much for a 20-25 mpg improvement. Unless I am missing something I don't see how makes sense to purchase one.



When we bought the Camry hybrid, it was the same price as a similarly built out V6 even though the tax credit had ended for Toyota.  Throw in the improved fuel economy over the V6 and it made a lot of sense.  The added cost of the technology is harder to cover with the smaller cars though.  The dealer wanted more for a built out Prius than we paid for the fully built out Camry.  The sales guy couldn't explain it other than people were paying it for the Prius.


----------



## WES999

Dune said:
			
		

> WES999 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I remember reading an article in a car mag some years ago when the first hybrids came out.
> Basically it came the the conclusion you would have to drive it for 17 years to make up for the increased price. Probably not all that much has changed. It seems that with a hybrid you are paying twice as much for a 20-25 mpg improvement. Unless I am missing something I don't see how makes sense to purchase one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be clear the Volt is not a hybrid. It is a plug in electric with an on board generator. A hybrid uses both electric and gas motors for propulsion. The distinction is important.
> In the case of the Volt, one in the right circumstances could easily never buy gas. Not so with the hybrid, and unlike an all electric car such as the Leaf, the Volt never needs to stop to recharge, if traveling long distances is the order of the day. It took me almost a year to come to grips with how really well this car was designed.
> 
> Nice tidbit; the Volt can be set up to preheat the cab while charging in cold weather.
Click to expand...


I realize the Volt is not quite the same as a hybrid, but my understanding is that the IC engine does drive the wheels in certain modes.

But my real point is cost benefit.

Say you drive 50 mi/day  12500 mi/yr 

Volt $40,000+ , never buy gas

Honda Fit $15,000  gets 35 MPG, annual fuel cost 1250/yr

It would take 20 years makeup the $25K difference in price.

Now throw in the cost of electricity, the increased cost of sales tax, excise tax, insurance.

I can't see how it would ever make economic sense.


----------



## GaryGary

WES999 said:
			
		

> Dune said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WES999 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I remember reading an article in a car mag some years ago when the first hybrids came out.
> Basically it came the the conclusion you would have to drive it for 17 years to make up for the increased price. Probably not all that much has changed. It seems that with a hybrid you are paying twice as much for a 20-25 mpg improvement. Unless I am missing something I don't see how makes sense to purchase one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be clear the Volt is not a hybrid. It is a plug in electric with an on board generator. A hybrid uses both electric and gas motors for propulsion. The distinction is important.
> In the case of the Volt, one in the right circumstances could easily never buy gas. Not so with the hybrid, and unlike an all electric car such as the Leaf, the Volt never needs to stop to recharge, if traveling long distances is the order of the day. It took me almost a year to come to grips with how really well this car was designed.
> 
> Nice tidbit; the Volt can be set up to preheat the cab while charging in cold weather.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I realize the Volt is not quite the same as a hybrid, but my understanding is that the IC engine does drive the wheels in certain modes.
> 
> But my real point is cost benefit.
> 
> Say you drive 50 mi/day  12500 mi/yr
> 
> Volt $40,000+ , never buy gas
> 
> Honda Fit $15,000  gets 35 MPG, annual fuel cost 1250/yr
> 
> It would take 20 years makeup the $25K difference in price.
> 
> Now throw in the cost of electricity, the increased cost of sales tax, excise tax, insurance.
> 
> I can't see how it would ever make economic sense.
Click to expand...



Hi,
The new small Prius C and the Honda FIT would be an interesting comparison to make.
Not sure yet what the C will cost, but (I think) less than $20K.

Gary


----------



## oldspark

"No, the Volt is an electric vehicle. Only the electric motor drives the wheels. It is a big motor, and the Volt is a performance vehicle. As far as I now, the fit would not be considered performance"
 What does that mean, I thought we were talking about saving money, do you have 1/4 mile and 0 to 60 specs for the volt?


----------



## Dune

WES999 said:
			
		

> Dune said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WES999 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I remember reading an article in a car mag some years ago when the first hybrids came out.
> Basically it came the the conclusion you would have to drive it for 17 years to make up for the increased price. Probably not all that much has changed. It seems that with a hybrid you are paying twice as much for a 20-25 mpg improvement. Unless I am missing something I don't see how makes sense to purchase one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be clear the Volt is not a hybrid. It is a plug in electric with an on board generator. A hybrid uses both electric and gas motors for propulsion. The distinction is important.
> In the case of the Volt, one in the right circumstances could easily never buy gas. Not so with the hybrid, and unlike an all electric car such as the Leaf, the Volt never needs to stop to recharge, if traveling long distances is the order of the day. It took me almost a year to come to grips with how really well this car was designed.
> 
> Nice tidbit; the Volt can be set up to preheat the cab while charging in cold weather.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I realize the Volt is not quite the same as a hybrid, but my understanding is that the IC engine does drive the wheels in certain modes.
> 
> But my real point is cost benefit.
> 
> Say you drive 50 mi/day  12500 mi/yr
> 
> Volt $40,000+ , never buy gas
> 
> Honda Fit $15,000  gets 35 MPG, annual fuel cost 1250/yr
> 
> It would take 20 years makeup the $25K difference in price.
> 
> Now throw in the cost of electricity, the increased cost of sales tax, excise tax, insurance.
> 
> I can't see how it would ever make economic sense.
Click to expand...


No, the Volt is an electric vehicle. Only the electric motor drives the wheels. It is a big motor, and the Volt is a performance vehicle. As far as I now, the fit would not be considered performance.

Secondly, the Volt will cost less than 30K with the new larger alternative fueled car credit.


----------



## oldspark

That posted strange but my question is the same, what are you talking about with the performance thing?


----------



## Corey

oldspark said:
			
		

> No, the Volt is an electric vehicle. Only the electric motor drives the wheels. It is a big motor, and the Volt is a performance vehicle. As far as I now, the fit would not be considered performance.
> 
> Secondly, the Volt will cost less than 30K with the new larger alternative fueled car credit.




Semantics, I suppose, but as I understand it, the gas engine can power the wheels directly which is technically a 'plug in electric hybrid'

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/10/the-chevrolet-volt-isnt-a-true-ev/

Fit Performance:
The 1.5L four-cylinder, breathing via VTEC, spins to its 6600-rpm power peak (117 hp) like a puppy on the loose, urging the Fit from* 0 to 60 mph in 8.3 sec.*
Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests...t_sport_quick_test/viewall.html#ixzz1omMSObwf

Volt Performance:
The Volt is not a sports car, but the acceleration * (0-60 mph in 8.8 seconds in pure EV mode, and 8.7 in combined gas/electric mode) * is competitive with conventional compacts
Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/oftheyear...ear_chevrolet_volt/viewall.html#ixzz1omNLURY0

So it appears the Fit has the edge in "performance" over the Volt.

As far as the 'credit' - yes, it's nice that my tax dollars can knock a few thousand dollars off a car, so rich people can buy a new $30,000 toy.  Maybe if I didn't have to pay so much in taxes, I could actually buy a new car.


----------



## Ehouse

The deal breaker for me is cost.  Manufacturers have to deal with the planned obsolescence problem.  I'm greener'n goose s..it, but I refuse to buy a new car of any configuration that devolves into a pile of rusted scrap or a quivering mess of electrical glitches in a few short years.  Get the cost below $15,000.00 and give me a ten year unlimited warranty and I'm in.

Ehouse


----------



## oldspark

The posts got screwed up but cozy heat made my point about the performance of the volt and fit.


----------



## gmule

Electric vehicles are a good start. But if you want economy and fun get a motorcycle. 40+ mpg and all the horse power you can handle. For now I'll have to suck it up with fuel prices during the winter with my small SUV. I have no intention of getting rid of that until the odometer hits 250K it has 198K on it now.  Since it sits for about half the year it could be a while before I am in the market for a newish vehicle.


----------



## Ehouse

Sorry, I can't get all gaga over the hype surrounding the new more fuel efficient vehicles when my 1991 Geo Prism got an Honest 39 mpg.  

Ehouse


----------



## Dune

oldspark said:
			
		

> The posts got screwed up but cozy heat made my point about the performance of the volt and fit.



All relative I guess. Compared to my Subaru GL, the Volt is a pavement stomper.


----------



## begreen

Dune said:
			
		

> Prosecond said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do we really need a coal powered car?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Right now, coal accounts for less than 45% of electricity generation, and is dropping fast. Additonaly, it is domestic coal, not imported oil, and as Jags pointed out, some people can generate their own electricity. Not many people can make their own gasoline.
Click to expand...


Ya know, I hear this lame argument all the time. Does anyone pause and think about the amount of electricity it takes to run an oil refinery? Where does that come from? Estimate by Argonne Labs is 6KW/gallon of gasoline. And that is just refining, not included is the energy used to extract and transport the oil, and the tailpipe emission.

The good thing with electric cars is that they will still run as the source of power changes. That allows society to still function in transition. Range will increase, so for me this is all about the battery technology. Once it is cost effective, with a greater storage to weight ratio, I think this market will grow rapidly. There are going to be a lot more electric and plugin hybrids on the market in the next couple years. Whether the Volt survives this transition is a good question. It is a nice vehicle, but as noted, too expensive.


----------



## oldspark

Dune said:
			
		

> oldspark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The posts got screwed up but cozy heat made my point about the performance of the volt and fit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All relative I guess. Compared to my Subaru GL, the Volt is a pavement stomper.
Click to expand...

 I have no idea what your whole point was about the performance thing and your Subaru being a pavemnet stomper.


----------



## oldspark

Ehouse said:
			
		

> Sorry, I can't get all gaga over the hype surrounding the new more fuel efficient vehicles when my 1991 Geo Prism got an Honest 39 mpg.
> 
> Ehouse


 I had a Geo Metro that got 49 mpg, it served its purpose but was a motor in a tin can.


----------



## begreen

That is essentially the difference. It's not even in the same league. The Geo Metro had a curb weight of about 1700 lbs or almost half that of a regular car. It was a total dog for performance with dubious handling and safety. There's really no comparison to the fit, finish, safety, performance and comfort of modern electrics or hybrids. Drive a Nissan Leaf, Toyota Prius or the Volt to compare.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

i keep hearing how EXPENSIVE the volt is but as i said earlier a $349 lease is a WHOPPING $16 more than the last car i leased. That car got 25 MPG and was no hybrid . Wheres the huge expense. After the 3 year lease is up if the volt dont depreciate it will be a bargain to exercise the option to purchase,if it does depreciate too much ill just give it back, 3 years is a lifetime as far as electric car advances go,besides there will probably be a dozen other choices by that time including a $249 lease on a NEW 2015 Volt with an 80 mile range.


----------



## mikefrommaine

Saw this on Fox news last week. Make sure you read the subtitles. Made me laugh.

http://www.obamavolt2012.com/Site/Obama_Volt_2012.html


<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/37540767?byline=0&portrait=0" width="400" height="225" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe>

Chevy Volt - Building a Better Tomorrow from Ben Howe on Vimeo.</p>


----------



## Dune

oldspark said:
			
		

> Dune said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> oldspark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The posts got screwed up but cozy heat made my point about the performance of the volt and fit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All relative I guess. Compared to my Subaru GL, the Volt is a pavement stomper.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have no idea what your whole point was about the performance thing and your Subaru being a pavemnet stomper.
Click to expand...


Read it again, it was quite clear.


----------



## begreen

Politics belongs in the ashcan. Let's stay on topic.


----------



## Dune

mikefrommaine said:
			
		

> Saw this on Fox news last week. Make sure you read the subtitles. Made me laugh.
> 
> http://www.obamavolt2012.com/Site/Obama_Volt_2012.html
> 
> 
> <iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/37540767?byline=0&portrait=0" width="400" height="225" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe>
> 
> Chevy Volt - Building a Better Tomorrow from Ben Howe on Vimeo.</p>



Found this, which disproves all the lies in your link.  http://www.treehugger.com/cars/obamavolt-video-chockfull-lies-and-misinformation.html
Can we keep this non-partisan?


----------



## begreen

Seasoned Oak said:
			
		

> i keep hearing how EXPENSIVE the volt is but as i said earlier a $349 lease is a WHOPPING $16 more than the last car i leased. That car got 25 MPG and was no hybrid . Wheres the huge expense. After the 3 year lease is up if the volt dont depreciate it will be a bargain to exercise the option to purchase,if it does depreciate too much ill just give it back, 3 years is a lifetime as far as electric car advances go,besides there will probably be a dozen other choices by that time including a $249 lease on a NEW 2015 Volt with an 80 mile range.



I've never leased a car. It's never made good economic sense for me. But if you are going to lease, then sure why not try one? When test driving, also try out the Ford Fusion Hybrid. I hear it's a nice vehicle and also made in the USA.


----------



## oldspark

Dune said:
			
		

> oldspark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dune said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> oldspark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The posts got screwed up but cozy heat made my point about the performance of the volt and fit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All relative I guess. Compared to my Subaru GL, the Volt is a pavement stomper.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have no idea what your whole point was about the performance thing and your Subaru being a pavemnet stomper.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Read it again, it was quite clear.
Click to expand...

  I guess I dont understand, you made a statement the volt was a performance car and the fit was not, so the fit is faster 0 to 60 and in the 1/4 mile so that is what baffles me, oh well I just will have to settle for being confused or is their some one who can spell it out for me.


----------



## EatenByLimestone

While the auto companies are coming up with a reasonably priced electric car that will match the distance I drive every day I'd like to see CNG cars other than the Honda Civic make an appearance.  The technology is here now, there are minimal changes needed to current vehicles to switch them over and it would be real easy to get pumping stations to set up a CNG pump.   

MAtt


----------



## oldspark

BeGreen said:
			
		

> That is essentially the difference. It's not even in the same league. The Geo Metro had a curb weight of about 1700 lbs or almost half that of a regular car. It was a total dog for performance with dubious handling and safety. There's really no comparison to the fit, finish, safety, performance and comfort of modern electrics or hybrids. Drive a Nissan Leaf, Toyota Prius or the Volt to compare.


 WOW you read a lot in my post, I guess you think I am an idiot. For some all they want is high milage and the Metro did just that.


----------



## Thistle

EatenByLimestone said:
			
		

> While the auto companies are coming up with a reasonably priced electric car that will match the distance I drive every day I'd like to see CNG cars other than the Honda Civic make an appearance.  The technology is here now, there are minimal changes needed to current vehicles to switch them over and it would be real easy to get pumping stations to set up a CNG pump.
> 
> MAtt



One of my  Uncles had a Dodge 3/4 ton  p/u back in the late '80s  that  he installed propane converter on it.With a flip of the switch he could change from propane to gasoline.Damn good idea if you ask me.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

EatenByLimestone said:
			
		

> While the auto companies are coming up with a reasonably priced electric car that will match the distance I drive every day I'd like to see CNG cars other than the Honda Civic make an appearance.  The technology is here now, there are minimal changes needed to current vehicles to switch them over and it would be real easy to get pumping stations to set up a CNG pump.
> 
> MAtt


GM and Dodge just announced their HD trucks will have a CNG option. It also looks like it will be between 10 and 13K  Too much for any MPG savings IMO I think The Honda CNG also adds 6-7K ,Seems like a lot for what amounts to an additional Fuel tank and a few switches. Perhaps if the Electric car rebate were extended to CNG conversions we may have something.
THey are considering taxing GAS Extraction in PA So now would be a good time to strike a deal with the Gas companies ,Convert x number of cars and trucks to CNG in exchange for x amount of tax relief.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Seasoned Oak said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i keep hearing how EXPENSIVE the volt is but as i said earlier a $349 lease is a WHOPPING $16 more than the last car i leased. That car got 25 MPG and was no hybrid . Wheres the huge expense. After the 3 year lease is up if the volt dont depreciate it will be a bargain to exercise the option to purchase,if it does depreciate too much ill just give it back, 3 years is a lifetime as far as electric car advances go,besides there will probably be a dozen other choices by that time including a $249 lease on a NEW 2015 Volt with an 80 mile range.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've never leased a car. It's never made good economic sense for me. But if you are going to lease, then sure why not try one? When test driving, also try out the Ford Fusion Hybrid. I hear it's a nice vehicle and also made in the USA.
Click to expand...

 If you have no intention of keeping the car longer than 3 years you may save serious money in some cases. AS long as the car is in fairly good condition or you didnt go way over the Milege,
ON the other hand trade in a 3 year old car you purchased and watch the shellacin you take on the deal. All lease deals are NOT alike,there are good ones and bad ones.
Volt tech is too new and to improving too rapidly too keep the first one out of the gate for more than 3 years.IMO.


----------



## Dune

Seasoned Oak said:
			
		

> EatenByLimestone said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While the auto companies are coming up with a reasonably priced electric car that will match the distance I drive every day I'd like to see CNG cars other than the Honda Civic make an appearance.  The technology is here now, there are minimal changes needed to current vehicles to switch them over and it would be real easy to get pumping stations to set up a CNG pump.
> 
> MAtt
> 
> 
> 
> GM and Dodge just announced their HD trucks will have a CNG option. It also looks like it will be between 10 and 13K  Too much for any MPG savings IMO I think The Honda CNG also adds 6-7K ,Seems like a lot for what amounts to an additional Fuel tank and a few switches. Perhaps if the Electric car rebate were extended to CNG conversions we may have something.
> THey are considering taxing GAS Extraction in PA So now would be a good time to strike a deal with the Gas companies ,Convert x number of cars and trucks to CNG in exchange for x amount of tax relief.
Click to expand...


It does cover natural gas cars. It is not an electric car subsidy, it is an alternative fuel car subsidy.


----------



## woodsmaster

A $7,500 tax credit is wothless to most people. Who pays $7,500 in income tax. Not very many people. If your paying that kind of income tax you probably dont really need the credit anyhow. Your probably pretty well off.


----------



## Tatnic Corners

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Seasoned Oak said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i keep hearing how EXPENSIVE the volt is but as i said earlier a $349 lease is a WHOPPING $16 more than the last car i leased. That car got 25 MPG and was no hybrid . Wheres the huge expense. After the 3 year lease is up if the volt dont depreciate it will be a bargain to exercise the option to purchase,if it does depreciate too much ill just give it back, 3 years is a lifetime as far as electric car advances go,besides there will probably be a dozen other choices by that time including a $249 lease on a NEW 2015 Volt with an 80 mile range.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've never leased a car. It's never made good economic sense for me. But if you are going to lease, then sure why not try one? When test driving, also try out the Ford Fusion Hybrid. I hear it's a nice vehicle and also made in the USA.
Click to expand...

I've never seriously considered a lease either. But we are talking new technology, technology that will be vastly better in a few years, and if like the iPads, better in a couple of months 

So leasing a Volt would be the time I would seriously consider leasing. Your ownership costs would not be that bad or that far off from buying  a "regular" car. $30 a week for gas and a car payment could easily top the $349 a month for the lease. My pickup payments for a used pickup (old truck so a 30 month payment plan is $280 a month, and getting 18 mpg the $30 a week estimate is low )

A Volt looks like a money saver for me. Now to talk to my power company in the town I work in. They are great and would probably be interested in setting up a "Charging Center". Maybe use their EV to drive people to and from their facility. Ooh look, a potential job creation opportunity. Could get a valet crew to drive people to and from work, park their EV's at a charging facility so the chargers could be centralized... If we thought about the future instead of cowering in fear of change we could get some progress in this country.


Garygary, I used your plans to put up some solar panels on my roof. Thank you for putting up that site, it has been great  I made some mistakes in the implementation of my panels, but even with the mistakes, which I plan to fix this spring when I add more panels I have cut my oil use for hot water dramatically... Thank you for posting the plans that others have made, it has helped me see that solar is possible and feasible. Even in my little wooded corner of Maine.


----------



## Dune

woodsmaster said:
			
		

> A $7,500 tax credit is wothless to most people. Who pays $7,500 in income tax. Not very many people. If your paying that kind of income tax you probably dont really need the credit anyhow. Your probably pretty well off.



The credit is being changed to 10K and also will go to the dealer instead. This change may make a big difference.


----------



## woodsmaster

If the dealer could drop the price that would be better for the consumer than uncle sam tricking you into thinking that your
getting a break that you never get or cant use fully.


----------



## Tatnic Corners

Thistle said:
			
		

> EatenByLimestone said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While the auto companies are coming up with a reasonably priced electric car that will match the distance I drive every day I'd like to see CNG cars other than the Honda Civic make an appearance.  The technology is here now, there are minimal changes needed to current vehicles to switch them over and it would be real easy to get pumping stations to set up a CNG pump.
> 
> MAtt
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One of my  Uncles had a Dodge 3/4 ton  p/u back in the late '80s  that  he installed propane converter on it.With a flip of the switch he could change from propane to gasoline.Damn good idea if you ask me.
Click to expand...

I lived on the plains of CO in the 80's and one of the locals had a CNG truck. He loved it, but learned the hard way not to paint the tank to match the truck color  He said he was driving down the road and the tank got so hot it "blew off" and vented!

He loved that truck, and is probably still driving it. He owned the gas station in town, so CNG was not an economic decision for him.


----------



## Corey

Dune said:
			
		

> woodsmaster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A $7,500 tax credit is wothless to most people. Who pays $7,500 in income tax. Not very many people. If your paying that kind of income tax you probably dont really need the credit anyhow. Your probably pretty well off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The credit is being changed to 10K and also will go to the dealer instead. This change may make a big difference.
Click to expand...


Not sure if the $7500 comment was meant to be sarcastic or not.  While they say almost 50% of the population don't pay income tax (hence everything from the government is a a free gift), so it may be true.  A person making a little over $35,000 could fall into the 25% tax bracket and pay over $8,750 in income taxes.

$10K to the dealer is probably the worst of all, though I suppose it does save a bit of hassle ...I remember many cases when the stove tax credit was in effect...suddenly a $2000 stove shot up to $3000+ with the lure of some tax credit to 'save you' $1000.


----------



## Dune

cozy heat said:
			
		

> Dune said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> woodsmaster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A $7,500 tax credit is wothless to most people. Who pays $7,500 in income tax. Not very many people. If your paying that kind of income tax you probably dont really need the credit anyhow. Your probably pretty well off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The credit is being changed to 10K and also will go to the dealer instead. This change may make a big difference.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not sure if the $7500 comment was meant to be sarcastic or not.  While they say almost 50% of the population don't pay income tax (hence everything from the government is a a free gift), so it may be true.  A person making a little over $35,000 could fall into the 25% tax bracket and pay over $8,750 in income taxes.
> 
> $10K to the dealer is probably the worst of all, though I suppose it does save a bit of hassle ...I remember many cases when the stove tax credit was in effect...suddenly a $2000 stove shot up to $3000+ with the lure of some tax credit to 'save you' $1000.
Click to expand...


I don't think they are going to raise the price...I think they are pretty desperate to sell some cars.


----------



## SolarAndWood

Dune said:
			
		

> I don't think they are going to raise the price...I think they are pretty desperate to sell some cars.



It is inevitable that a subsidy raises the price.  It is one of the imperfections of subsidies.  Moving the subsidy from the tax payer to the dealer lets more people into the game but also means more people take advantage of it and it becomes a bigger tax burden.  It also keeps the price artificially high.

They are desperate.  I checked the inventory and just about every configuration/color combo is sitting on a lot within 50 miles of me.


----------



## Dune

SolarAndWood said:
			
		

> Dune said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think they are going to raise the price...I think they are pretty desperate to sell some cars.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is inevitable that a subsidy raises the price.  It is one of the imperfections of subsidies.  Moving the subsidy from the tax payer to the dealer lets more people into the game but also means more people take advantage of it and it becomes a bigger tax burden.  It also keeps the price artificially high.
> 
> They are desperate.  I checked the inventory and just about every configuration/color combo is sitting on a lot within 50 miles of me.
Click to expand...


I have had a hard evening and I am very tired, but I don't see why it is inevitable. They are not selling now, they will make just as much money without raising the price. Oh well, we will find out soon.


----------



## SolarAndWood

Cross a supply and demand curve and you find an equilibrium price and quantity sold.  Add the subsidy and the price goes up to generate the increased quantity sold.  Kind of the point of a subsidy but it does inflate the price.

Put another way, they would have to drastically reduce the price to move all the units sitting on the lots right now.  The subsidy artificially inflates the price.


----------



## rkusek

Thistle said:
			
		

> EatenByLimestone said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While the auto companies are coming up with a reasonably priced electric car that will match the distance I drive every day I'd like to see CNG cars other than the Honda Civic make an appearance.  The technology is here now, there are minimal changes needed to current vehicles to switch them over and it would be real easy to get pumping stations to set up a CNG pump.
> 
> MAtt
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One of my  Uncles had a Dodge 3/4 ton  p/u back in the late '80s  that  he installed propane converter on it.With a flip of the switch he could change from propane to gasoline.Damn good idea if you ask me.
Click to expand...


My dad had the local propane guy put one on 73 Chevy p/u in the late '70s.  I believe back then gas would shoot up while propane and corn did not making it more feasible.  Today propane and corn rise in price with gasoline.  Even if you are a farmer with your own corn, you would be money ahead to sell all the corn and buy gasoline rather than having a small still to "brew" your own.  The self sufficient part of it would be nice though in case of some type of nationwide disaster but I'm not sure an E85 vehicle would run on 100% alcohol.  The CNG has it's own challenges, most notable the time it takes to fuel.  It takes about 4 hours of fueling to replace 50 miles of driving CNG details, but you can do it in your garage so it's kind of like a plug in vehicle.  I'm sure this could be improved upon but maybe not to the extent of today's gas stations.  My FIL's company looked at CNG a few years ago for their cement trucks but the fueling time and station cost was a deal breaker and they only use them 8 hrs a day tops.  A least NG is clean burning and available in US so it may still be our answer to foreign oil.

LINK fixed


----------



## rkusek

tatnic corners said:
			
		

> BeGreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seasoned Oak said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i keep hearing how EXPENSIVE the volt is but as i said earlier a $349 lease is a WHOPPING $16 more than the last car i leased. That car got 25 MPG and was no hybrid . Wheres the huge expense. After the 3 year lease is up if the volt dont depreciate it will be a bargain to exercise the option to purchase,if it does depreciate too much ill just give it back, 3 years is a lifetime as far as electric car advances go,besides there will probably be a dozen other choices by that time including a $249 lease on a NEW 2015 Volt with an 80 mile range.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've never leased a car. It's never made good economic sense for me. But if you are going to lease, then sure why not try one? When test driving, also try out the Ford Fusion Hybrid. I hear it's a nice vehicle and also made in the USA.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I've never seriously considered a lease either. But we are talking new technology, technology that will be vastly better in a few years, and if like the iPads, better in a couple of months
> 
> So leasing a Volt would be the time I would seriously consider leasing. Your ownership costs would not be that bad or that far off from buying  a "regular" car. $30 a week for gas and a car payment could easily top the $349 a month for the lease. My pickup payments for a used pickup (old truck so a 30 month payment plan is $280 a month, and getting 18 mpg the $30 a week estimate is low )
> 
> A Volt looks like a money saver for me. Now to talk to my power company in the town I work in. They are great and would probably be interested in setting up a "Charging Center". Maybe use their EV to drive people to and from their facility. Ooh look, a potential job creation opportunity. Could get a valet crew to drive people to and from work, park their EV's at a charging facility so the chargers could be centralized... If we thought about the future instead of cowering in fear of change we could get some progress in this country.
> this at your work parking lot or garage.  The metering method if actually necessary would be the most expensive part of it.
> 
> Garygary, I used your plans to put up some solar panels on my roof. Thank you for putting up that site, it has been great  I made some mistakes in the implementation of my panels, but even with the mistakes, which I plan to fix this spring when I add more panels I have cut my oil use for hot water dramatically... Thank you for posting the plans that others have made, it has helped me see that solar is possible and feasible. Even in my little wooded corner of Maine.
Click to expand...



No special charging center is really necessary.  A 240V outlet would charge it in 3 hrs.  A 120V takes about 10-11 hrs for full charge.  We're not talking millions in federal spending to accomplish this.  Some basic electrician work and any parking lot could be set up this way.  The metering method would probably be the most costly and that is only if precise measurement is really necessary.  I contend an employer could get a reasonable measurement setup that would cover their cost of electricity and make everyone happy.  The cost of the additional service and putting in outlets would probably be picked up by the employer to jump start use.


----------



## nosaudioil

The Volt is the largest model car kit that you can drive on public roads!


----------



## Seasoned Oak

woodsmaster said:
			
		

> A $7,500 tax credit is wothless to most people. Who pays $7,500 in income tax. Not very many people. If your paying that kind of income tax you probably dont really need the credit anyhow. Your probably pretty well off.


Thats why leasing makes sense is this instance, no need to deal with the rebate details ,it goes to the leasing Co.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

A little patience is in order here.Remember the Prius was NOT a runaway best seller when it was first introduced. When these volts start making sense to the masses cost wise,they will fly off the lots. Especially if gas hits $5 a gallon.


----------



## oldspark

Well I sort of came off negative about this car and that was not my intent, I live in an area where a lot of people who need a high milage car cant afford the price of the Volt, I am sure this is a nice car but for many just too expensive, I know a lot of people who wish they could get a hold of a Geo Metro to drive to work and we all know they are as I said before a tin can with a motor. If the car manufactors put their mind to it will will have a cheaper totaly electric car(with the issues worked out) in just a few years I believe.


----------



## btuser

We burn 70% of the oil we use for transportation.  Within 5 years we could go from importing to exporting.  Not a problem.  Its one of the only low-hanging fruit this economy has left.


----------



## oldspark

btuser said:
			
		

> We burn 70% of the oil we use for transportation.  Within 5 years we could go from importing to exporting.  Not a problem.  Its one of the only low-hanging fruit this economy has left.


 Been trying to do my part since 1971, Datsuns, Geo's, and Hondas.


----------



## GaryGary

btuser said:
			
		

> We burn 70% of the oil we use for transportation.  Within 5 years we could go from importing to exporting.  Not a problem.  Its one of the only low-hanging fruit this economy has left.



Hi,
I've had the same thought.
I drive around Bozeman and 70+% of the traffic is pickup trucks and big SUVs with one or two people.
Seems like people could own more efficient cars and get together with a few neighbors on a shared pickup for the few times its really needed?
Thousands of dollars of saved gasoline costs and tons of CO2 per year.

Gary

Tatnic -- glad to hear the solar plans works out!


----------



## rkusek

cozy heat said:
			
		

> Dune said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> woodsmaster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A $7,500 tax credit is wothless to most people. Who pays $7,500 in income tax. Not very many people. If your paying that kind of income tax you probably dont really need the credit anyhow. Your probably pretty well off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The credit is being changed to 10K and also will go to the dealer instead. This change may make a big difference.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not sure if the $7500 comment was meant to be sarcastic or not.  While they say almost 50% of the population don't pay income tax (hence everything from the government is a a free gift), so it may be true.  A person making a little over $35,000 could fall into the 25% tax bracket and pay over $8,750 in income taxes.
> 
> $10K to the dealer is probably the worst of all, though I suppose it does save a bit of hassle ...I remember many cases when the stove tax credit was in effect...suddenly a $2000 stove shot up to $3000+ with the lure of some tax credit to 'save you' $1000.
Click to expand...


Wow, both of you are way off concerning taxes.  A family or individual paying $7500 in taxes in not necessarily "pretty well off" by anyone's estimation.  Also, someone making a little over $35,000 could be in the 25% tax bracket if they are single.  However, that does mean they pay $8750 in income taxes (35,000 x 25%).  You have at least the standard deduction ($5900 single, 11,900 married filing joint) or more likely a higher itemized deduction if you have a home loan.  Then take $3700 for yourself and every dependent in your home that is subtracted off next.  Then the tax brackets kick in (10%, 15%, 25%, 28%, 33%, and 35%) but everyone starts paying in the 10% until they max it out, then the next range is taxed at 15% up until you max out, then onto the 25% and so on.  By my rough calculations a single person with standard deduction has to make about $55,000 to pay $7500 in federal and a family of 4 about $82,000 using the standard deduction.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

oldspark said:
			
		

> Well I sort of came off negative about this car and that was not my intent, I live in an area where a lot of people who need a high milage car cant afford the price of the Volt, I am sure this is a nice car but for many just too expensive, I know a lot of people who wish they could get a hold of a Geo Metro to drive to work and we all know they are as I said before a tin can with a motor. If the car manufactors put their mind to it will will have a cheaper totaly electric car(with the issues worked out) in just a few years I believe.


There are Alternatives to metros already. THe Eco Cruze is under $20,000 gets around 40 average and some reviewers claim they can get it up 58 MPG at a steady speed
on a level road. Then again personally i would rather a volt for $349 a month,give it back in 2015 when there is 15-20 choices available.


----------



## oldspark

Seasoned Oak said:
			
		

> oldspark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well I sort of came off negative about this car and that was not my intent, I live in an area where a lot of people who need a high milage car cant afford the price of the Volt, I am sure this is a nice car but for many just too expensive, I know a lot of people who wish they could get a hold of a Geo Metro to drive to work and we all know they are as I said before a tin can with a motor. If the car manufactors put their mind to it will will have a cheaper totaly electric car(with the issues worked out) in just a few years I believe.
> 
> 
> 
> There are Alternatives to metros already. THe Eco Cruze is under $20,000 gets around 40 average and some reviewers claim they can get it up 58 MPG at a steady speed
> on a level road. Then again personally i would rather a volt for $349 a month,give it back in 2015 when there is 15-20 choices available.
Click to expand...

 I was refering to people who could not afford a new car, I have a Honda Fit which I like a lot and I can get 40 with it, did not realize that you could get 58 with a Cruze, I have not seen that figure before.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

GaryGary said:
			
		

> btuser said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We burn 70% of the oil we use for transportation.  Within 5 years we could go from importing to exporting.  Not a problem.  Its one of the only low-hanging fruit this economy has left.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> I've had the same thought.
> I drive around Bozeman and 70+% of the traffic is pickup trucks and big SUVs with one or two people.
> Seems like people could own more efficient cars and get together with a few neighbors on a shared pickup for the few times its really needed?
> Thousands of dollars of saved gasoline costs and tons of CO2 per year.
> 
> Gary
> 
> Tatnic -- glad to hear the solar plans works out!
Click to expand...

I live near a school and every day there is a daily parade of Large SUVS,Suberbans Trucks, Escalades with 1 person or 1 adult and a child for those ferrying their kids to school.
I think gas prices need to go up to trim some of the waste which i see all around me.


----------



## timfromohio

If it had a flux capacitor and ran for free I'd not buy one - GM lost my business for life after the CEO went public saying they paid back their Tarp Money (round #1) when in reality all they did was borrow more money from the government at a lower interest rate to pay back the initial loan - the one at the higher interest rate.  That combined with a business model that for the last few decades was to milk as much profit as possible off of truck/SUV platforms (the margins on those are huge) while cater to the unions at all costs sort of turned me off.  

PS - watch the movie "Who Killed the Electric Car" - when you see just how far ahead (IMHO) GM was with electric vehicles way back with the EV-1 and how they blew it, it makes one even more averse to their products.


----------



## btuser

timfromohio said:
			
		

> PS - watch the movie "Who Killed the Electric Car" - when you see just how far ahead (IMHO) GM was with electric vehicles way back with the EV-1 and how they blew it, it makes one even more averse to their products.



They were told to kill it.  We have a patriotic duty to burn through all the easy oil in the world.  

Better than "Who killed the Electric Car" is a book called "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man".


----------



## begreen

oldspark said:
			
		

> Seasoned Oak said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> oldspark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well I sort of came off negative about this car and that was not my intent, I live in an area where a lot of people who need a high milage car cant afford the price of the Volt, I am sure this is a nice car but for many just too expensive, I know a lot of people who wish they could get a hold of a Geo Metro to drive to work and we all know they are as I said before a tin can with a motor. If the car manufactors put their mind to it will will have a cheaper totaly electric car(with the issues worked out) in just a few years I believe.
> 
> 
> 
> There are Alternatives to metros already. THe Eco Cruze is under $20,000 gets around 40 average and some reviewers claim they can get it up 58 MPG at a steady speed
> on a level road. Then again personally i would rather a volt for $349 a month,give it back in 2015 when there is 15-20 choices available.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was refering to people who could not afford a new car, I have a Honda Fit which I like a lot and I can get 40 with it, did not realize that you could get 58 with a Cruze, I have not seen that figure before.
Click to expand...


Here's a reviewer that got close to that. Pretty amazing mileage for a stock car. 
http://www.conceivablytech.com/5728/products/chevy-cruze-eco-58-mpg-no-hybrid-magic/2


----------



## oldspark

The Cruze looks like a winner to me.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

btuser said:
			
		

> timfromohio said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PS - watch the movie "Who Killed the Electric Car" - when you see just how far ahead (IMHO) GM was with electric vehicles way back with the EV-1 and how they blew it, it makes one even more averse to their products.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They were told to kill it.  We have a patriotic duty to burn through all the easy oil in the world.
> 
> Better than "Who killed the Electric Car" is a book called "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man".
Click to expand...


Honda and toyota and nissan did exactly the same thing,had electrics in the 90s than KILLED em Dead.Crushed em as well. Why dont i ever hear anyone whining about them? ,its always GMGMGM


----------



## Seasoned Oak

oldspark said:
			
		

> The Cruze looks like a winner to me.


You can lease one of these babies for just $159 a month.Has 10 air bags as well. AMazing


----------



## timfromohio

Seasoned Oak said:
			
		

> btuser said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> timfromohio said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PS - watch the movie "Who Killed the Electric Car" - when you see just how far ahead (IMHO) GM was with electric vehicles way back with the EV-1 and how they blew it, it makes one even more averse to their products.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They were told to kill it.  We have a patriotic duty to burn through all the easy oil in the world.
> 
> Better than "Who killed the Electric Car" is a book called "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Honda and toyota and nissan did exactly the same thing,had electrics in the 90s than KILLED em Dead.Crushed em as well. Why dont i ever hear anyone whining about them? ,its always GMGMGM
Click to expand...



What were the Honda and Toyota models?  I don't remember those at all.  I do remember seeing the EV-1's and thinking what a great car for a commuter vehicle.  They also had excellent performance for the time.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

Toyota rav-4 EV , honda ev plus, nissan altra wagon.


----------



## woodsmaster

huskers said:
			
		

> cozy heat said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dune said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> woodsmaster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A $7,500 tax credit is wothless to most people. Who pays $7,500 in income tax. Not very many people. If your paying that kind of income tax you probably dont really need the credit anyhow. Your probably pretty well off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The credit is being changed to 10K and also will go to the dealer instead. This change may make a big difference.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not sure if the $7500 comment was meant to be sarcastic or not.  While they say almost 50% of the population don't pay income tax (hence everything from the government is a a free gift), so it may be true.  A person making a little over $35,000 could fall into the 25% tax bracket and pay over $8,750 in income taxes.
> 
> $10K to the dealer is probably the worst of all, though I suppose it does save a bit of hassle ...I remember many cases when the stove tax credit was in effect...suddenly a $2000 stove shot up to $3000+ with the lure of some tax credit to 'save you' $1000.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wow, both of you are way off concerning taxes.  A family or individual paying $7500 in taxes in not necessarily "pretty well off" by anyone's estimation.  Also, someone making a little over $35,000 could be in the 25% tax bracket if they are single.  However, that does mean they pay $8750 in income taxes (35,000 x 25%).  You have at least the standard deduction ($5900 single, 11,900 married filing joint) or more likely a higher itemized deduction if you have a home loan.  Then take $3700 for yourself and every dependent in your home that is subtracted off next.  Then the tax brackets kick in (10%, 15%, 25%, 28%, 33%, and 35%) but everyone starts paying in the 10% until they max it out, then the next range is taxed at 15% up until you max out, then onto the 25% and so on.  By my rough calculations a single person with standard deduction has to make about $55,000 to pay $7500 in federal and a family of 4 about $82,000 using the standard deduction.
Click to expand...


Ok that souds right. My point is most people wont be able to use the full credit and some probably none at all.


----------



## SolarAndWood

woodsmaster said:
			
		

> My point is most people wont be able to use the full credit and some probably none at all.



I don't think anyone has any illusion that the Volt is the next People's Car.  While Jay Leno probably doesn't need the tax credit, the $7500 or potentially $10K incentive makes someone looking at a Malibu, Taurus, gas Camry, Accord, etc consider the Volt as an alternative.  With 3600 vehicles in inventory, the good taxpayers of this country are looking at a $30-$40M bill to move the stock.  Who should be able to take advantage of the subsidy is probably a topic for the ash can, but the $10K tax credit has me seriously considering a Volt instead of another Camry hybrid, VW TDI Passat, etc when I wouldn't even think about it in the low $40Ks.  Only time will tell if GM makes as good use of the subsidy as Toyota did a decade ago and VW is today.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

If you cant take the tax credit and want the car, be prepared to shell out about $600+ a month in car Pmts.Just another reason to consider a $349 lease.


----------



## btuser

timfromohio said:
			
		

> What were the Honda and Toyota models? I don't remember those at all. I do remember seeing the EV-1's and thinking what a great car for a commuter vehicle. They also had excellent performance for the time.



The buying up and squashing of patents is an effective suppression of innovation. NiMH batteries can indeed power a vehicle good enough to get me back/forth to work, or 80% of the world for that matter. If I had $.05 KWH electricity rates I'd love it even more.

The use of oil by Americans is intentional to (pardon the pun) keep us in the driver's seat. Now that Chindia is taking off we can afford to start using less of it I guess, just as long as China doesn't get any crazy ideas. We use oil to drive, but a lot of people use oil just to eat, either through fertilizer or diesel to run farm equipment/distribution systems/or even pump water. High oil prices hurt the developing world at a much greater rate than us. Much of 3rd world debt (I hate that term) can be attributed/tracked to high oil prices, specifically the 1973 oil embargo.   Once you own them, YOU OWN THEM.


----------



## oldspark

Seasoned Oak said:
			
		

> If you cant take the tax credit and want the car, be prepared to shell out about $600+ a month in car Pmts.Just another reason to consider a $349 lease.


 Wouldn't the $159 lease on the Cruze make way more sense? Some people have enough money to save the planet and some just want to save there financial ass.


----------



## begreen

We're in transition. You should get the car that fits your needs and lifestyle. This article brings up one interesting perspective on the cost of ownership over 5 yrs.. 

http://www.greencarreports.com/news...-electric-what-do-they-cost-over-5-yrs/page-2


----------



## jebatty

The concept of car loan payments or lease payments is as foreign to me as passing gas at the end of a meal. If $$$ economy is the only consideration, then a focus on the existing high mpg cars with excellent reliability records, 2-5 years old, bought used, driven conservatively, and kept until they fall apart, is the no-brainer way to go. These cars easily run 250,000+ miles without any major repairs, perhaps no repairs other than ordinary maintenance. Mpg's range well into the 30's. And buying this way puts enough money into the retirement account, unless a person is a consumption addict, to kick the job and actually have a retirement.

That's what wife and I have done since 1986, the last new car we purchased. Our current 2007 Camry 4-cyl, 6 speed auto tranny, is spacious, very energetic, and gets 35 mpg on the highway. This is the entry level Camry model, no frills, all car and all transportation, with reliability, comfort, guts, space and very light on the $$$. Out 2005 Camry is just about the same, a little smaller on the inside, 5-speed auto tranny, and 33 mpg on the highway. 

The 2005, bought used with about 30,000 miles on it, and 145,000 now, has a minimum of 5 years yet to save us money at our current 20,000 miles/yr driving rate, and the 2007 now with 95,000 miles on it, also bought used, I may be driving as my last car, as another 10-15 years of driving starts to get me pretty close to looking at life from the other side.

For an all-electric car, we need a driving range of about 125 miles, as we live in a rural area about 50 miles from the nearest large city area (90,000 pop). That driving range would cover the majority of our driving.


----------



## mikefrommaine

jebatty said:
			
		

> The concept of car loan payments or lease payments is as foreign to me as passing gas at the end of a meal. If $$$ economy is the only consideration, then a focus on the existing high mpg cars with excellent reliability records, 2-5 years old, bought used, driven conservatively, and kept until they fall apart, is the no-brainer way to go. These cars easily run 250,000+ miles without any major repairs, perhaps no repairs other than ordinary maintenance. Mpg's range well into the 30's. And buying this way puts enough money into the retirement account, unless a person is a consumption addict, to kick the job and actually have a retirement.
> 
> That's what wife and I have done since 1986, the last new car we purchased. Our current 2007 Camry 4-cyl, 6 speed auto tranny, is spacious, very energetic, and gets 35 mpg on the highway. This is the entry level Camry model, no frills, all car and all transportation, with reliability, comfort, guts, space and very light on the $$$. Out 2005 Camry is just about the same, a little smaller on the inside, 5-speed auto tranny, and 33 mpg on the highway.
> 
> The 2005, bought used with about 30,000 miles on it, and 145,000 now, has a minimum of 5 years yet to save us money at our current 20,000 miles/yr driving rate, and the 2007 now with 95,000 miles on it, also bought used, I may be driving as my last car, as another 10-15 years of driving starts to get me pretty close to looking at life from the other side.
> 
> For an all-electric car, we need a driving range of about 125 miles, as we live in a rural area about 50 miles from the nearest large city area (90,000 pop). That driving range would cover the majority of our driving.




+1
Our 'new' car is a 2001 civic, just over 100k miles.. Been getting 38 mpg. One time payment of 4200. 

Leasing or buying new doesn't make any cents to me.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

oldspark said:
			
		

> Seasoned Oak said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you cant take the tax credit and want the car, be prepared to shell out about $600+ a month in car Pmts.Just another reason to consider a $349 lease.
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldn't the $159 lease on the Cruze make way more sense? Some people have enough money to save the planet and some just want to save there financial ass.
Click to expand...


It makes more sense if you dont have (or dont want to part with)the money
If its all about the cheapest transportation on the planet i recommend a bicycle. The volt is a luxury car compared to the cruze. Its a high tech ,high end alternative fueled auto.Its not just about getting from point A to point B. Even Cadillac Escalades with their $75000 price tag enjoy brisk sales.  If $349 a month puts you in the poorhouse, the car is not for you.  There are millions of americans that can easily afford a volt and once the misinformation(they catch on fire)dies down sales will pick up.


----------



## btuser

My last vehicle purchased was a salvaged diesel pickup truck.  10 years ago for 11 grand.  Put it back together new and it will last another 10 years before the rust takes it.   Tried the veggie oil thing but couldn't get a consistent supply.  I figure not only did I keep a car out of a landfill I also kept one from being made.


----------



## BrotherBart

Looks like some "filling stations" are showing up.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...ing-stations/2012/03/12/gIQA7PpgBS_story.html


----------



## Seasoned Oak

btuser said:
			
		

> My last vehicle purchased was a salvaged diesel pickup truck.  10 years ago for 11 grand.  Put it back together new and it will last another 10 years before the rust takes it.   Tried the veggie oil thing but couldn't get a consistent supply.  I figure not only did I keep a car out of a landfill I also kept one from being made.



That sounds like something i would do BT, but probably wont work for the masses.


----------



## Jack768

I see they've shut down the production line for 5 weeks.  Clearly, the masses are embracing this Beltway-decreed project.


----------



## jimbom

btuser said:
			
		

> ....I figure not only did I keep a car out of a landfill I also kept one from being made.


This is really important.  Not often discussed, but the key to living a low impact life.  Our 1994 and 2003 Camrys are still in daily use.  They will be kept as long as they are safe and make economic sense.


----------



## jensent

[quote author="timfromohio" date="1331584861"] If it had a flux capacitor and ran for free I'd not buy one - GM lost my business for life after the CEO went public saying they paid back their Tarp Money (round #1) when in reality all they did was borrow more money from the government at a lower interest rate to pay back the initial loan - the one at the higher interest rate. That combined with a business model that for the last few decades was to milk as much profit as possible off of truck/SUV platforms (the margins on those are huge) while cater to the unions at all costs sort of turned me off. [/quote]

X2
I will never consider a GM or Chryser product again. They both have poor reliability as well. Save the money buy a reliable vehicle and pay cash. Financing is added expence. You earn (a little! ) interest as you save. Think years per car as well as miles per gal.
Tom


----------



## btuser

An electric car is a great idea, charged by an appropriate sized charging motor (in the trunk) and plugged in when you're at home/not driving. I'm interested with the idea of building them into to the grid as a buffer for electric production. It may offset a lot of the grid cost, and avoild the inevitable tax/mile tracking we're going to have to swallow. I would make the leap to drive-by-wire to increase efficiency and design the engine for MPG not standard emmisions controls. A small, cheap (and light) gas or even diesel genset to extend range shouldn't be subjected to the same emmision controls when you're burning so much less. Just to get us over the hump, till buckey-ball batteries are affordable.

Oh my God, where's the spell check on this thing?


----------



## Seasoned Oak

jensent said:


> [quote author="timfromohio" date="1331584861"]
> 
> X2
> I will never consider a GM or Chryser product again. They both have poor reliability as well. Save the money buy a reliable vehicle and pay cash. Financing is added expence.
> Tom


 
I Have driven chevy pickup trucks daily for 30 years,i cant imagine a MORE reliable and trouble free model on the planet. My current daily driver is 17 years old has 175000 miles on it and drives and looks like a brand new truck. I can afford to by a new one but cant justify it when my 95 model does everything so well. I did own a 1999 toyota tacoma that was the WORST truck i ever owned,LEAST reliable worst MPG,rust bucket,glad its gone.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

jensent said:


> [quote author="timfromohio" date="1331584861"] If it had a flux capacitor and ran for free I'd not buy one - GM lost my business for life after the CEO went public saying they paid back their Tarp Money (round #1) when in reality all they did was borrow more money from the government at a lower interest rate to pay back the initial loan - the one at the higher interest rate. That combined with a business model that for the last few decades was to milk as much profit as possible off of truck/SUV platforms (the margins on those are huge) while cater to the unions at all costs sort of turned me off.


 
I look at it the opposite way. If my money is being used to make GM a success then i want to get something for my tax dollars. The only way i can do that is by using their products.Since iv been doing so for 30 years with next to zero problems it not a hard decision. I cant do that by buying a toyota(Who,s Govt also subsidized them as well) Its not easy to deal with unions and the foreign makers bypass them altogether by building in the south.


----------



## begreen

The electric RAV4 will be built in Ontario.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

begreen said:


> The electric RAV4 will be built in Ontario.


Im not a toyota fan but they did have a winner with that rav 4 electric. would have been millions on the road if they kept makin em.


----------



## timfromohio

Seasoned Oak said:


> I look at it the opposite way. If my money is being used to make GM a success then i want to get something for my tax dollars. The only way i can do that is by using their products.Since iv been doing so for 30 years with next to zero problems it not a hard decision. I cant do that by buying a toyota(Who,s Govt also subsidized them as well) Its not easy to deal with unions and the foreign makers bypass them altogether by building in the south.


 
I have an ethical problem in supporting them.  Further, if you've ever toured an auto plant of an American manufacturer, seen the work ethic, and then found out what folks get paid you'd be grabbing for the nearest puke bag.  I just don't think that operations like this deserve my money either in the form of a puchase or in the form of tax dollars (well in this case, tax dollars of my grandchildren ....)


----------



## Seasoned Oak

timfromohio said:


> I have an ethical problem in supporting them. Further, if you've ever toured an auto plant of an American manufacturer, seen the work ethic, and then found out what folks get paid you'd be grabbing for the nearest puke bag. I just don't think that operations like this deserve my money either in the form of a puchase or in the form of tax dollars (well in this case, tax dollars of my grandchildren ....)


But you have no ethical problem supporting foreign companies(namely toyota and hyundi) whose Govt also bail them out whenever necessary,and also effectively ban american products  from their markets while they flood ours with their products costing you and your grandchildren millions of jobs and dollars?.Hmmmmmmm  confusing.


----------



## velvetfoot

A guy at work is got a new one on lease.  Quite a snazzy looking car.  I like hatchbacks too.


----------



## timfromohio

Seasoned Oak said:


> But you have no ethical problem supporting foreign companies(namely toyota and hyundi) whose Govt also bail them out whenever necessary,and also effectively ban american products from their markets while they flood ours with their products costing you and your grandchildren millions of jobs and dollars?.Hmmmmmmm confusing.


 
I never said anything pro/con about Toyota or Hyundai.  I own two Hondas - one built in Alabama, the other in Ontario.  To the best of my knowledge, Honda never received and TARP money - they were not listed on any of the recipient lists I checked.  So, no I have no ethical problem purchasing great vehicles from a foreign-owned company.  Should I have bought a Ford or Chevy built in Mexico just so the profits stay here and reward poor management behavior? 

I fail to see how Honda is costing any American jobs - they build cars profitably in this country.  Also, GM sells way more vehicles overseas than they do here, by a large margin so I fail to see how their sales overseas are "banned".


----------



## Seasoned Oak

Japan has and does subsidize its own auto industry,which honda is included. What our Govt did with tarp funds is no different.
Japan and South korea are the 2 worst offenders for implementing so many trade barriers most companies have all but given up, all foreign brands not just ours.
I would have an ethical problem buying from a car company whose Govt (Japan and south Korea) effectively thru a myraid of barriers shuts out american made auto products from their market. 
But thats just me. Its a mystery to me why so many americans just seem to love bashing american companies when at the same time most also work for or at one.  
And that a 60% foreign car market share is not costing us any jobs, besides final assembly of foreign brands with imported parts.


----------



## begreen

velvetfoot said:


> A guy at work is got a new one on lease. Quite a snazzy looking car. I like hatchbacks too.


 
If it was 5 passenger I would be looking at one. I recently heard that the local dealers are discounting them nicely.


----------



## macmaine

Hey gang

Have any of you taken it for a spin?
I have and it is a blast
It is very quiet very fast and quite solid
Just picked up nice red one 2 weeks ago!
Best Car I have ever had.
Now of course I am in the honeymoon phase but....


Things I love about it

1) Made in USA
2) Make your own fuel (Solar hot water here hope to find some funds for Solar PV soon)
3) Unlimited range with gas tank ( Will be using mine mostly on 10-20 mile  RT commute: EV range is 30-50 miles)
4) My fuel money will go to CMP utility not OPEC
5) Much better for the environment (Poll who wants to be stuck in a tunnel with volts or with ICE, breathe deep!)
6) Will keep my Prius around ( though admit I have not driven it once in last 2 weeks)
7) Leased which I rarely do to keep options open. likely will get pure electric next purchase

Cost savings
Back of the envelope math
Replacing my Highlander
Highlander  17 mpg = 6 gallons per 100 miles or 60 gallons per 1000 = $240 monthly fuel cost                        (assume $4.00 a gallon ; this summer they say $5.00 )
Volt 13 KW for 35 miles, 40 KW for 100 miles or 400 KW per 1000 miles = $40 monthly fuel cost                    (assume off peak 10 cents KWH, some have 5 cents out west)

That means I save $200 a month. This is more than 1/2 the lease payment from fuel savings.
With a LEAF it is even better as you dont have oil changes spark plugs carburetors.


Also I heard the very common and expected dirty coal car argument :
Remember the grid gets cleaner every year as
Solar wind natural  gas come on to help retire dirty coal plants and we enforce new Mercury pollution rules.

Also cool website to see what your state uses to keep lights on:
http://instituteforenergyresearch.org/states/


Anyone that wants  a test drive let me know I am in Portland area PM me

Peace Tom


----------



## timfromohio

Seasoned Oak said:


> Japan has and does subsidize its own auto industry,which honda is included. What our Govt did with tarp funds is no different.
> Japan and South korea are the 2 worst offenders for implementing so many trade barriers most companies have all but given up, all foreign brands not just ours.
> I would have an ethical problem buying from a car company whose Govt (Japan and south Korea) effectively thru a myraid of barriers shuts out american made auto products from their market.
> But thats just me. Its a mystery to me why so many americans just seem to love bashing american companies when at the same time most also work for or at one.
> And that a 60% foreign car market share is not costing us any jobs, besides final assembly of foreign brands with imported parts.


 

Look at the part content.  All companies are sourcing parts from all over the world - a result of globalism, good or bad.  I've seen the insides of both union-run American plants where guys sandbag on the job so they can get double time and a half weekend pay and Japanese plants where people actually .... work.  The former is not deserving of my money.  If the foreign governments want to subsidize my purchase, awesome!  Then my kids and grandkids won't incur the debt that we have taken on naitonally subsidizing irresponsibility in our own country.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

I agree on the point the unions,particularly the auto unions have hurt the industry. I have no love for the UAW. But at the same time im proud of american craftsmanship and ingenuity and are nowhere near ready to turn the whole auto industry over to honda,toyota and Hyundai. Despite the UAW the volt is getting awards left and right, the people building that car have a right to be proud. And whoever built that 1995 Silverado i drive every day trouble free as well. Drive whatever you want, but when you start bashing the home team expect some proud americans out there who disagree. I hope my kids and grand kids can work for or own an american company what ever its faults. BTW the unions took some pretty hefty consessions in that bankruptcy so its nowhere near as bad as before.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

macmaine said:


> Hey gang
> 
> Have any of you taken it for a spin?
> 
> Also cool website to see what your state uses to keep lights on:
> http://instituteforenergyresearch.org/states/
> 
> 
> Anyone that wants a test drive let me know I am in Portland area PM me
> 
> Peace Tom


Way to go tom,we need more guys like you who see the value in american made products.
Especially the part where you replace a TOYOTA with it.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

begreen said:


> If it was 5 passenger I would be looking at one. I recently heard that the local dealers are discounting them nicely.


Ditto BG If this baby was an SUV or Ext Cab Pickup there would be one in my garage long ago. I got 3 small kids so i need that third seat plus cargo room. I just dont have a lot of use for a small sedan but its a good start.


----------



## begreen

It looks like there will be several new contenders available shortly.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

Im lookin at a 1997 Chevy s10 electric in an aution. Only 60 ever made Bid so far is $2100  Use lead acid batteries to go 45 miles per charge. Im very tempted.


----------



## mywaynow

Production suspended due to lack of sales.  Even after production slowed to address fire issues exposed during crash tests.  This car is not going to last.  Non-sensical.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

mywaynow said:


> Production suspended due to lack of sales. Even after production slowed to address fire issues exposed during crash tests. This car is not going to last. Non-sensical.


Yesterday USATODAY ran a story of potential $8 a gal gas if iran goes through with their threat of closing the strait of hormuz, if that happens people will be trampling over each other to lease a volt for $349 a month. The small excess inventory will vanish quickly.


----------



## JP11

Seasoned Oak said:


> Yesterday USATODAY ran a story of potential $8 a gal gas if iran goes through with their threat of closing the strait of hormuz, if that happens people will be trampling over each other to lease a volt for $349 a month. The small excess inventory will vanish quickly.


How long do you think Iran's piddly Navy can keep the strait closed if the US decides to use our Navy to keep it open? That article was nothing but fear tactics from the "pump and dump" speculators.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

JP11 said:


> How long do you think Iran's piddly Navy can keep the strait closed if the US decides to use our Navy to keep it open? That article was nothing but fear tactics from the "pump and dump" speculators.


According to the article if iran lays anti ship mines it could take awhile to find them all. I think $8 Gal is entirely possible given our past history in a crisis situation. All they  (IRAN) really have to do is blow up even 1 oil tanker which they are easily capable of more likely several if they go that route. Even the smallest incident will trigger panic on world markets.IMO


----------



## begreen

The entire thing is speculative. There are lots of potential disruptions in the world economies that could come about, or not.


----------



## btuser

It would be pretty cool to be the only car on the highway...  Mitigating risk is something that makes sense to me.  My family spends 10k/yr+ for health insurance we barely use. 2-4k a year for other insurance we hope we never use.   If I could get a 1/2 van to go 100mi/day on a battery it woud be worth it for my company to spend an extra 10k per vehicle, and pay to install a 240v charging circuit at the employee's house. That's at 4/gallon, not even talking about 8/gallon. 10-20k/year in fuel/year is a big ticket item.


----------



## mywaynow

And what do you think your electric expense is going to do, go down? When the Whitehouse is not being run by a far left president, fuel will come down. I am not against alternative fuels. Not at all. I am against being force fed methods that are not sound, as well as blowing billions on friends of the administration's pet projects (solyndra). Make the benefit of success great, and they methods will come. Prop up the mediocre and that is all you will get.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

mywaynow said:


> And what do you think your electric expense is going to do, go down? When the Whitehouse is not being run by a far left president, fuel will come down. I am not against alternative fuels. Not at all. I am against being force fed methods that are not sound, as well as blowing billions on friends of the administration's pet projects (solyndra). Make the benefit of success great, and they methods will come. Prop up the mediocre and that is all you will get.


Electric drive is equivalent to about $1 a gallon for gas ,so your electric bill goes up about 25% of what you USED to pay for gas at $4 Gal.


----------



## btuser

They could tripple your electric rate and it would still be cheaper.  Its a matter of efficiency, not scarcity.  The price of gas will fall when the price of gas goes up:  People will drive less.  Same scenario as last time and the time before that.  It took 4 years of Obama in the Whitehouse to raise gas prices this high?  If you want to quibble Bush was elected when gas was $1.13 and went to $4.08 by the time July 2008.

The saber rattling by the Republican party over Iran has more to do with the price of gas vs the Liberal agenda and the Chevy Volt.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

Its dangerous to have a one fuel transportation system,especially with "peak oil" around the corner.We should have at the least a third gasoline, one third electric, and one third CNG powering our transportation system. BTW CNG would be about $1 a gallon equiv as well.


----------



## JP11

btuser said:


> It would be pretty cool to be the only car on the highway...


 
Sorry.. I've got a couple of 20plus year old Mercedes that will still be cruising along.

Dollar a gallon biodiesel I make myself.  As long as people keep eating french fries.. I'll still be driving.  Guess I'll start a taxi service.


----------



## semipro

begreen said:


> The electric RAV4 will be built in Ontario.


 
I'm hoping these will be affordable cause we'd really like to have one.
Better yet, we'd like an all electric compact SUV with 4 hub motors and AWD with traction control.
Someday...


----------



## btuser

JP11 said:


> Sorry.. I've got a couple of 20plus year old Mercedes that will still be cruising along.
> 
> Dollar a gallon biodiesel I make myself. As long as people keep eating french fries.. I'll still be driving. Guess I'll start a taxi service.


 
Good luck with your supply chain.  What happens when you have to outbid me for the grease (unless you own the restaurant)?


----------



## Seasoned Oak

$8 a gallon wont keep everyone at home. I only spend about $100 a month on gas so even double to $200 wont be a deal breaker.


----------



## Pallet Pete

Everybody wants a volt that I talk to ! I don't get it I hate car loans and will do my best to never have one again. Electric from the saving fuel standpoint ok I get that part but if it's from the save the planet standpoint that's just wrong. More pollution is created just to make the materials for the car than a normal car as well as the cost factor being way way higher to manufacture it. My real issue with electric is that we can barely keep the grid up as is which means if everyone is charging there cars at night then down goes the grid! Maybe if they made a FULLY self charging car that would be different but I have not seen one yet. Not starting a fight lol I'm just pissy about some things lol. Also if this was already brought up sorry I did not want to read 9 pages of posts.

Pete


----------



## stoveguy2esw

all this electric car stuff is nice, but i need a TRUCK 

i have thought about the electric car issue thought about parking garages which have "parking meters" like on the side of city streets, imagine pulling in , plugging in, swiping your card and getting billed for current while at work or shopping or whatever, garage gets a small surcharge for the service above the going kw rate. grid will need some serious work to support it though unless thers availability of on site generation via wind or solar on the roof of the parking roundabout.


----------



## Dune

Pete, Mike; The beauty of electric cars is that most charging will be at night. Grid usage at night is low, electric cars will actualy balance use for the electric companies. Eventualy the electric car batteries themselve will be part of the smart grid.


----------



## daveswoodhauler

Dune said:


> Pete, Mike; The beauty of electric cars is that most charging will be at night. Grid usage at night is low, electric cars will actualy balance use for the electric companies. Eventualy the electric car batteries themselve will be part of the smart grid.


 Would be real nice if here in Mass they offered off peak rates that I see in many states...must just be a mass thing


----------



## Pallet Pete

Dune said:


> Pete, Mike; The beauty of electric cars is that most charging will be at night. Grid usage at night is low, electric cars will actualy balance use for the electric companies. Eventualy the electric car batteries themselve will be part of the smart grid.



I do not think that Is true in some cases sadly. When I lived in California we had random brownouts ( electricity turndowns ) day and night to keep the electricity flowing. Granted I lived in a heavily populated area ! 

Pete


----------



## gtjp

Seasoned Oak said:


> Weigh in on the GM volt. Yes its ~
> 
> Electric,. like my first 11 MPH 3-Wheel Mini bike, knife-switch, BANG- "on" 11 mph in 2 seconds !
> 
> Now
> i,e,) IF,
> if GeoThermal Electrical in field net electrically working in COP's that are 3.3 to 5+
> --
> HOW ?
> How could I get 3 x's the mileage, ~ probing the Earth at every stop , charging again...
> ?


----------



## btuser

Here's a good explaination why the president can't control gas prices, from 2008!
http://www.treehugger.com/fossil-fu...dents-cant-control-gas-prices-2008-video.html


----------



## Seasoned Oak

btuser said:


> Here's a good explaination why the president can't control gas prices, from 2008!
> http://www.treehugger.com/fossil-fu...dents-cant-control-gas-prices-2008-video.html


Check out the sidebar on that site headlined "THe TRUE cost of gasoline may be HIGHER that $15 a gallon",and that dont even factor in the 2 wars.


----------



## stoveguy2esw

Dune said:


> Pete, Mike; The beauty of electric cars is that most charging will be at night. Grid usage at night is low, electric cars will actualy balance use for the electric companies. Eventualy the electric car batteries themselve will be part of the smart grid.


 
eventually the batteries will be better and range will be extended to "travel" distances, hopefully soon, i actually like the idea of electric vehicles. the "grid thing' is a bit disengenuous though as many people's commutes are over half the advertized range of a lot of electric only vehicles, my comment was directed towards that , kind of a cottage industry if you wanted to call it that, having the ability to park in a roundabout (which im sure lots of commuters do anyway) with a "pay per kw" recharge available would be a viable business opportunity, kinda like "paid parking" is now, also, "plug in" emergency batteries would be worth developing (kinda like having a small gas can in the trunk in case you ran out on a trip) maybe a "plug it in and let it dump into the cars internal battery then take out take home and recharge" type of accessory

short term though , these kinds of innovations take time and they above all take a healthy economy to get developed, so in the interim, gas prices have to go down cause until the electric car age arrives as a standard, we are still an economy locked into cheap gas, as it goes we go. so my thought is this , we develop what we have here and "hoard it" take american crude off the world market, or tax the crap out of its export to force oil companies to sell domestically in order to make any reasonable profit. in essence though, (and i give obama's admin high marks for it) keep the higher cafe standards and phase in higher ones. make the auto industry build cars that get great mileage. and drill now here so we can get the economy going well enough to not rely on drilling here later. this is the quandry we are in, one way or another we're gonna have to drill here, why not use the means we have now as a bridge to electric, rather than languish with a squeezed economy that just needs some relief at the pump to take off and develop electric faster due to having the strong economy in which to do it. in other words, we need cheaper gas to get off of gas, but we need someone who is able to present this in a positive way to all us hardheaded americans who simply want the free milk without buying the cow.


----------



## Dune

Not buying it Mike. Waiting until gas prices drop for electric cars is like waiting till the fire burns down before calling the fire department.
By the way car batteries will indeed make the grid smarter.


----------



## begreen

Kicking the can down the road is exactly what got us where we are today. And more drilling will mean nothing. That oil will go to the highest bidder and that ain't US.


----------



## stoveguy2esw

Dune said:


> Not buying it Mike. Waiting until gas prices drop for electric cars is like waiting till the fire burns down before calling the fire department.
> By the way car batteries will indeed make the grid smarter.


 
got a better suggestion? wait til gas is 10 bucks a gallon? then what? you have to have an ECONOMY to make anything work, we currently do not have one. until we again have cheap energy we will not have one, you want electric cars, great, so do i. but im not willing to sit here and think if i wish hard enough it will just happen. we have to transition. had you actually read through my post you would see that im not suggesting "just drill baby drill" but drill we must, if not now then later and if later we will not have progressed towards anything. a large if not the largest percentage of oil in the us is under public lands, that means the government is the owner and can set the rules for whats removed from there.


----------



## begreen

Mike, we are exporting petroleum distillates. America is using less gasoline, so the oil cos. are selling to Europe and Asia. If we drill more, more goes overseas. Why is turning the US into a third world nation a good thing? Isn't it better to keep our -finite- reserves for when we need them?


----------



## GaryGary

stoveguy2esw said:


> got a better suggestion? wait til gas is 10 bucks a gallon? then what? you have to have an ECONOMY to make anything work, we currently do not have one. until we again have cheap energy we will not have one, you want electric cars, great, so do i. but im not willing to sit here and think if i wish hard enough it will just happen. we have to transition. had you actually read through my post you would see that im not suggesting "just drill baby drill" but drill we must, if not now then later and if later we will not have progressed towards anything. a large if not the largest percentage of oil in the us is under public lands, that means the government is the owner and can set the rules for whats removed from there.


 

We visited Norway last year and rented a car to get around.  Gas was $9 per gallon.  This puzzled me given that Norway has pretty well developed oil resources.  I asked about it and as near as I could tell much of the oil revenue was going into a fund that would be used for the benefit of future generations, and not to lower short term gas prices -- pretty amazing.

$9 a gallon gas did not seem to effect things much.  You very rarely saw pickups or SUVs, but there were certainly plenty of cars and people driving them.  

The develop every fossil fuel resource on the planet only works if you don't think that CO2 caused climate change is a real issue -- otherwise, we need to reduce fossil fuel use -- a lot.

Gary


----------



## begreen

Like many others, Norway's oil fields are in decline now. They are taking the prudent course by reducing consumption.


----------



## btuser

begreen said:


> Like many others, Norway's oil fields are in decline now. They are taking the prudent course by reducing consumption.
> 
> View attachment 64060


 They've always been on a prudent course.  Oil has never been a political football and the revenue generated from it has been hands off for both sides.  When the oil is gone they'll have a stack of cash still producing. They're the model for sovereign wealth fund.  They will actually exclude a company from the fund (over $500 billion for a country with 4.7 million people) for ethical reasons.  Yeah, that's awesome.  Compare that to America who boasts over $47,000 per capita debt, greater than Greece, Ireland, Spain or Portugal. 

Vikings are cool.


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## Dune

stoveguy2esw said:


> got a better suggestion? wait til gas is 10 bucks a gallon? then what? you have to have an ECONOMY to make anything work, we currently do not have one. until we again have cheap energy we will not have one, you want electric cars, great, so do i. but im not willing to sit here and think if i wish hard enough it will just happen. we have to transition. had you actually read through my post you would see that im not suggesting "just drill baby drill" but drill we must, if not now then later and if later we will not have progressed towards anything. a large if not the largest percentage of oil in the us is under public lands, that means the government is the owner and can set the rules for whats removed from there.


 
My suggestion? Buy! I am waiting to hear back from the dealer on the status of the "credit".
As to not having an economy, how does one respond to such a comment? We do indeed have an economy, a poor one, but there is one.
Sales of american built cars improve the economy more than sales of foriegn cars (even those built here), but that is a different topic.
There is no reason to think that the price of oil will go lower, don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen.
The low hanging fruit, at this point is electric cars.


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## Seasoned Oak

begreen said:


> Like many others, Norway's oil fields are in decline now. They are taking the prudent course by reducing consumption.
> 
> View attachment 64060


Thats right BG ,but when you talk about "peak oil" people act like your some kind of conspiracy  theorist.  There WILL be major price swings going the other side of the oil curve,how bad will depend on how prepared we are,in other words how many of us will be driving NG or electric cars.


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## Seasoned Oak

THe volt is not AHEAD of its time but, IMO 10 years behind ,the EV1 should NEVER have been scrapped.


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## begreen

Seasoned Oak said:


> Thats right BG ,but when you talk about "peak oil" people act like your some kind of conspiracy theorist. There WILL be major price swings going the other side of the oil curve,how bad will depend on how prepared we are,in other words how many of us will be driving NG or electric cars.


 
I'm not talking peak oil, just the facts mam. Besides the North Sea, many of the world's oil fields are in decline. And in other areas like Saudi Arabia they have decided they need to use their oil to improve social conditions (electricity, factories, desalinization) before they have a revolt on their hands. Draw your own conclusions.


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## Seasoned Oak

begreen said:


> I'm not talking peak oil, just the facts mam. Besides the North Sea, many of the world's oil fields are in decline. And in other areas like Saudi Arabia they have decided they need to use their oil to improve social conditions (electricity, factories, desalinization) before they have a revolt on their hands. Draw your own conclusions.


What you describe is actually already going down the other side of peak oil,which is the point where demand starts to exceed supply and when old fields are declining faster than new oil is being found.


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## semipro

RowCropRenegade said:


> You need to read up on these cars "bricking". Basically if you let the charge go to zero on these cars because of vacation, incompetence, whatever they become a brick. Meaning you will have to pay 30,000 for repairs and a new battery core. I'd steer clear of the Volt. Nothing more than another Green fad from the obummer czar admistration.


 
Hmmm. Reminds me of the warnings circulated about the Prius when it came out 10 years ago.

Maybe if we'd have had some leadership with some vision then, Americans would have built those 2 million plus "bricks" instead of the Japanese.


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## stoveguy2esw

Dune said:


> My suggestion? Buy! I am waiting to hear back from the dealer on the status of the "credit".
> As to not having an economy, how does one respond to such a comment? We do indeed have an economy, a poor one, but there is one.
> Sales of american built cars improve the economy more than sales of foriegn cars (even those built here), but that is a different topic.
> There is no reason to think that the price of oil will go lower, don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen.
> The low hanging fruit, at this point is electric cars.


 
buy what? once again you didnt read my post, i need a truck not a car. as for my "not having an economy" it was meant as "we do not have a strong economy" sorry you didnt seem to grasp the sarcasm there , didnt expect it to be so far over your head. so, i will be buying but wont be a volt though cause its not a truck and no electric plug in truck seems to be available. if it makes you feel better i am looking at gas milage as one of the features i am paying close attention to cause i happen to believe what candidate obama said back in 08 as to wanting gas prices to rise, chu, his energy sec wants gas to be on par with the prices in europe cause he thinks that it will force people to start looking at mass transit such as they have in europe, theres a reason europes mass transit system works well for them, and that reason is the very reason it will not here, we're too spread out, they arent they are all clustered together. mass transit is great in NYC or boston and the like, but how well do ya think its gonna play in wyoming?

quite simply put, i believe electric cars are going to be the standard eventually, the better the existing economy works , the sooner we will get there, the current economy runs at its best on cheap oil. without it the economy stagnates, it is what it is, its not gonna change in a healthy way on demand, but it will if its given the time to do so with the proper leadership. and the tools with which to do it


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## begreen

Try as you may play the blame game, the President doesn't have a lot of control here and a rhetorical comment doesn't make it action. But the numbers do speak of what is happening. We are selling gasoline and diesel to the highest bidder and currently that is not US. Mexico is running out of oil and they are willing to pay us for distillates cuz the transport charges are the lowest. Hear that giant sucking sound?




I do hear you on the truck and think you will be seeing progress there. You are not alone. However, with current battery technology an electric truck is only going to be reasonable if your range is say within 50 miles round trip. If you need greater range the best option may end up being a hybrid diesel for now. Do you have to have a truck daily, weekly or monthly for your work?


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## Dune

Mike, look into a cng truck. That stuff is cheap for the moment, quite green, and also part of the energy bridge to the future.
As to electric trucks, yes I think there is a huge market, especialy for small heavy duty commercial trucks, but clearly market acceptance is not there yet.

After commuting vehicles, small commercial trucks must surely consume a large share of petrol.
Oh, and take a breath now and then.


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## begreen

Ford electrified the Ranger and Chevy had an electric S10. Both were viable designs that could benefit from a boost of modern technology.


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## Seasoned Oak

I need a truck as well.  I use one Daily ,my current truck gets about 10 miles to the gallon. But i only need a  HD truck like that about once or twice a month.  The " OLD TECH" electric would do me just fine. 40 miles is plenty of range on good old lead acid deep cycle batteries. Ill probably end up with a 90s ford ranger electric or an s10 electric if i can find one. Not cost effective(at this point)to spend $30K-$40K  on a new electric pickup.


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## Dune

Rangers are still a very popular DIY conversion. There are kits available, so that it becomes an R and R job, with very little fabrication, with the exception of battery racks.

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/


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## Seasoned Oak

Only reason i dont already have a VOLT in the garage is i dont have much use for a 4 passenger small sedan.


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## begreen

I have a 94 Ford Ranger that will get about 30mpg on the highway, 25mpg local driving. Brakes and suspension have been beefed up. It has done a lot of hauling. I don't push it hard, just take it slow and easy. If I need a bigger truck, I'll rent it. But that has only happened a couple times in the past several years.


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## Seasoned Oak

Dune said:


> Rangers are still a very popular DIY conversion. There are kits available, so that it becomes an R and R job, with very little fabrication, with the exception of battery racks.
> 
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/


Great site dune, ill be including it in my daily read.


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## Seasoned Oak

begreen said:


> I have a 94 Ford Ranger that will get about 30mpg on the highway, 25mpg local driving. Brakes and suspension have been beefed up. It has done a lot of hauling. I don't push it hard, just take it slow and easy. If I need a bigger truck, I'll rent it. But that has only happened a couple times in the past several years.


Is that a standard shift? That impressive MPG. I cant use a Stick anymore cuz the knees are givin out.


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## begreen

Yes, standard 5 spd with overdrive in 5th. I think the new Chevys Colorados and Toyota Tacomas are getting about 25mpg hwy.


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## Seasoned Oak

begreen said:


> Yes, standard 5 spd with overdrive in 5th. I think the new Chevys Colorados and Toyota Tacomas are getting about 25mpg hwy.


I had a 99 tacoma that didnt do much better(mpg) than my 2500 4x4 HD ext cab silverado, so i wont be going that route again. This time id really like to go "gas free" altogether.


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## Seasoned Oak

Id be perfectly happy with a 90s electric truck but right now i dont have time to restore one,so unless i find one ready to drive, ill be on the sideline for awhile longer.


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## gtjp

But my real point is cost benefit.

Say you drive 50 mi/day 12500 mi/yr

Volt $40,000+ , never buy gas

Honda Fit $15,000 gets 35 MPG, annual fuel cost 1250/yr


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## gtjp

ALLLRRIDEEE THEN:

Saturn sc-1 known for just a bad radiator cap after cooling fan stops...  unattended causes head warp-  replace ~ 1400.oo
THIS:
1995
cracked on snow-ground (into sign post) made me give up...
@ 233.000 mi from $3,400. total invested used car costs
and repairs before crash... from purchase mileage at 157,000    = 76000 + miles  over 4 years

::: city @ 27 mpg and hwy 33-34 frequently flying over 70 mph,  premium 93 gas and syntec oil (only leaked each 400-4500mi change ~ 3/4 quart !) - - - better than a diesel  station wagon owned from 144-184,000 mi to trade in

[oh a young repair nut bought the Saturn for 500, as I drove it up the trailer after accident]


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## begreen

What is not being considered is the resale value of the car in say 5 years. Will the Volt sell for more than the Fit at that point? And one needs to add up the total costs for the 5 year period and compare one to the other. I'm not saying the Fit wouldn't come out a ahead, but in order to do an ROI you need to have all the costs compared over the same period of time.


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## Seasoned Oak

gtjp said:


> But my real point is cost benefit.
> 
> Say you drive 50 mi/day 12500 mi/yr
> 
> Volt $40,000+ , never buy gas
> 
> Honda Fit $15,000 gets 35 MPG, annual fuel cost 1250/yr


If you leased the volt for $349 a month for 3 years you dont spend anywhere near $40000,even if you buy it Federal and state rebates make the cost much less than $40000. The Honda does not qualify for rebates.


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## Dune

Seasoned Oak said:


> If you leased the volt for $349 a month for 3 years you dont spend anywhere near $40000,even if you buy it Federal and state rebates make the cost much less than $40000. The Honda does not qualify for rebates.


 
Why is the Volt being compared to the Honda Fit?
One is high quality expensive american car. The other is the cheapest car made by a foriegn country which doesn't even have decent fit/finnish according to Consumer Reports.

Furthermore, one is a plug in electric with an onboard generater, the other an ICE. Talk about apples and oranges.


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## begreen

Well, in someways it is a 'fitting' comparison. Both handle well, but the Fit is exceptional according to Car and Driver, with it beating a Ferrari F430 Spider F1in the lane change test. They have placed it at the top of its class three times. But more importantly there is a hybrid Fit in Japan and Europe that gets 54 US mpg. And there is an electric Fit in the works that could be interesting.
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2007-honda-fit-sport-page-8


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## dave_dj1

I didn't read any prior threads on this subject but my opinion is that they are a complete waste of our resources, period! Each Volt sold costs tax payers approximately $250,000.00 
Plus now they are proved junk


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## begreen

dave_dj1 said:


> I didn't read any prior threads on this subject but my opinion is that they are a complete waste of our resources, period! Each Volt sold costs tax payers approximately $250,000.00
> Plus now they are proved junk


 

Opinion noted and summarily dismissed.


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## Seasoned Oak

There were people (and still are) who thought the computer was a terrible idea and a complete waste of money


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## dave_dj1

It just doesn't make any sense to me to eat up taxpayers money on a project that can't and doesn't end up helping anything. None of the so called green cars get anywhere near the mileage they should or could. They all come with a price, whether it be to the consumer or the taxpayer. WE (this country) can't go on just pouring money onto "ideas". We can walk on the moon, dive to 7 miles deep in the ocean but we can't cure the common cold. Without tax dollars none of this crap would evolve and you all would have to rely on the private sector to come up with good products. Now I'm not saying to stop researching and doing studies but at least be realistic about things and know when to say when! 
And thank you for duly noting my opinion, then dismissing it. At least you recognized it!


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## begreen

What kind of mileage do you think these cars could or should get?

The Volt gets excellent gas mileage for average use that it was designed for and pretty good mileage even on a trip. Should we just keep plowing tax dollars into subsidizing oil? Note that the Senate just voted to retain these subsidies again, yesterday.


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## semipro

dave_dj1 said:


> It just doesn't make any sense to me to eat up taxpayers money on a project that can't and doesn't end up helping anything. None of the so called green cars get anywhere near the mileage they should or could. They all come with a price, whether it be to the consumer or the taxpayer. WE (this country) can't go on just pouring money onto "ideas". We can walk on the moon, dive to 7 miles deep in the ocean but we can't cure the common cold. Without tax dollars none of this crap would evolve and you all would have to rely on the private sector to come up with good products. Now I'm not saying to stop researching and doing studies but at least be realistic about things and know when to say when!
> And thank you for duly noting my opinion, then dismissing it. At least you recognized it!


I guesss it depends on your interpretation of "realistic".  
This relates to the second quote in my signature.


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## Seasoned Oak

The problem is if we wait until its more cost effective ,there may not be an economy left to save, when oil demand seriously outpaces supply and gas shoots up to unaffordable levels for much of the country its already too late. We need to start making the transition LONG before oil supply reaches the critical level. IMHO Its national security issue as much as economic security.


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## Dune

dave_dj1 said:


> It just doesn't make any sense to me to eat up taxpayers money on a project that can't and doesn't end up helping anything. None of the so called green cars get anywhere near the mileage they should or could. They all come with a price, whether it be to the consumer or the taxpayer. WE (this country) can't go on just pouring money onto "ideas". We can walk on the moon, dive to 7 miles deep in the ocean but we can't cure the common cold. Without tax dollars none of this crap would evolve and you all would have to rely on the private sector to come up with good products. Now I'm not saying to stop researching and doing studies but at least be realistic about things and know when to say when!
> And thank you for duly noting my opinion, then dismissing it. At least you recognized it!


 
So you turned down the tax credit for your woodstove install?


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## stoveguy2esw

dave_dj1 said:


> It just doesn't make any sense to me to eat up taxpayers money on a project that can't and doesn't end up helping anything. None of the so called green cars get anywhere near the mileage they should or could. They all come with a price, whether it be to the consumer or the taxpayer. WE (this country) can't go on just pouring money onto "ideas". We can walk on the moon, dive to 7 miles deep in the ocean but we can't cure the common cold. Without tax dollars none of this crap would evolve and you all would have to rely on the private sector to come up with good products. Now I'm not saying to stop researching and doing studies but at least be realistic about things and know when to say when!
> And thank you for duly noting my opinion, then dismissing it. At least you recognized it!




how much taxpayer money was eaten up putting a man on the moon? just saying. i personally think electric cars are the future, my issue is that we should be using our own domestic energy as a bridge to get there. forcing this "change' is not gonna make it happen as fast or as well, eventually the technology will catch up to it but the early versions will not be what the mainstream is going to be satisfied with. to be honest this is somthing that should have been worked on "hard" a few decades ago, but it wasnt, now we have a faltering economy high gas prices and all that so the entry into the electric car age is going to be retarded by this,  im going to say it again and probably get slammed again, i dont care im used to it by now. this country operates at its best on inexpensive energy, to bring on the transition better and faster , we simply need to fix the economy first, then change it when its healthy. doing somthing like this fast isnt likely to get it done well.


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## Dune

No intentions of slamming you Mike. Manufacturing green stuff could be part of what repairs our economy. It's not like Goldman Sachs is going to give back all the money they took, we need to make some more.


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## stoveguy2esw

Dune said:


> No intentions of slamming you Mike. Manufacturing green stuff could be part of what repairs our economy. It's not like Goldman Sachs is going to give back all the money they took, we need to make some more.




i guess its a "chicken/egg " arguement. i agree green energy is important for a multitude of reasons. most rational folks do, i think our disagreement if we would even call it that, is the method of bringing it about. im a "free market" guy even though there are some things about it that piss me off (those things probably chap you even more my liberal friend) i also get chapped about some of the regulations which  IMHO tend to overdo it, though i DO believe regulation is a necessity. our bigest stumbling block these days is simple in my mind but complicated in execution. government and the free market need to work better together than they currently are, both sides of the aisle are guilty, the far right want to enter into a "katie bar the doors" free for all, while the far left want to overregulate to the point that the free market cant function in the manner it works best at. until our beloved congress kisses and makes up this will be the pattern that will continue. its sad but its accurate


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## begreen

Mike, oil based energy is not going to be cheap any more. That era is past. We are no longer in a world with a glut of cheap 3d world oil. Now there are countries that are going to outbid us for this resource. We are shipping a large amount of our refined oil products to Mexico because they will pay more. We needed a comprehensive energy policy 30 years ago when it was obvious that this was on the horizon. Carter tried, but Regan chose to regress and put the country back on the credit card instead. Now the debt is getting too high. You can't keep kicking this can down the road.

As far as pissing away money, we seem to be experts at this. For example, during the 90's the US gave massive tax credits to companies (ATT, Qwest, etc.) for laying fiber optic cables. How much? About 25 billion in tax credits. Then, in it's infinite wisdom Congress deregulated this industry. Guess what that massive fiber optic infrastructure is doing now... it's about 90% unused and idle.


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## dave_dj1

begreen said:


> What kind of mileage do you think these cars could or should get?
> 
> The Volt gets excellent gas mileage for average use that it was designed for and pretty good mileage even on a trip. Should we just keep plowing tax dollars into subsidizing oil? Note that the Senate just voted to retain these subsidies again, yesterday.


 
Well I know there are vehicles in other countries that get 50-60 mph and they aren't considered here because they don't meet emissions. Go figure, they use 66% LESS fuel and yet they aren't fit for our roads. 
Years ago there was a guy who invented a carburetor that you could put on a typical car motor (of course that was before emissions and all the computers) that would get you 30-40 mpg. One of the big oil companies bought it up and buried it. 
How does the Volt charge? It has an onboard generator that runs on what? I suppose if you didn't have a place to plug it in or fossil fuel to charge it, it would be a giant lawn ornament? I'm thinking that unless you know for a fact that your electricity comes from a river or a wind farm there is dead dinosaurs involved. I know you people don't want to believe that but that is how I see it.
Part of the problem with not getting vehicles that are cleaner (in any way shape or form) is that we (American drivers) want to get from point a to point b as fast as possible and we all want our independence of traveling at our free will. Car manufacturers obliged us by giving us 400hp to get there quicker and burn more fuel doing it. Larger vehicles, 
This whole ethanol thing is also ridiculous, force us to burn and inferior fuel so we get less mpg and pretend that the ethanol comes at no cost. A gallon of ethanol takes more than a gallon of dino to produce and deliver.
As far as subsidizing oil, no, cut the tax breaks to big oil, let's get the dino out of this country! I know, not in my backyard. The foothills of the Rockies are said to have one of the biggest oil and gas deposits on the continent but we can't mine that. There is said to be enough natural gas under the state of NY to run the entire country for 30 years but nope. Wind power is too subsidized too so that is not really worth the effort. It all comes at a cost, my pocket should not be the place, at least not forced out of my pocket.


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## dave_dj1

Dune said:


> So you turned down the tax credit for your woodstove install?


 
I guess I did , never thought I needed one. I work hard for my wood heat. I don't buy it, I make it. I may have my accountant look into that for me this year though, or is it too late?


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## begreen

Be careful about those European ratings. They test differently than the EPA now and do not directly correlate to real world mileage. If that car were rated by the new EPA criteria it might fall in the 40-45 mpg range. What is impressive that the Volt pulls off a 93mpg rating on electric under this stricter rating and a real world combined rating of 60mpg.

And as far as emissions, hybrids are seriously cleaner burning. The Prius or Volt are magnitudes cleaner burning than some 400 hp muscle machines.


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## Seasoned Oak

stoveguy2esw said:


> im going to say it again and probably get slammed again, i dont care im used to it by now. this country operates at its best on inexpensive energy, .


Yes it does ,and thats why were advocating inexpensive transportation energy alternative cars ,like electric and CNG. Electric drive as well as CNG that allows transportation at an equiv.rate of about $1 a gallon for gas. Of course to get there you are paying up front costs for cars capable of using these fuels. So if the govt can subsidize big oil,why shouldnt they subsidize electrics, if we were really paying the true cost of gasoline, electrics would not need rebates. IMO


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## semipro

Going electric for vehicle propulsion is about the only practical way to replace fossil fuels with renewable sources. 
You could go with hydrogen or bio-fuels but the the former has lots of issues with storage and distribution and all the bio-fuel we can produce is needed for applications where batteries aren't currently practical like aircraft and long haul trucks.


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## Seasoned Oak

Heres a blow to the right and to fox news as well
http://gm-volt.com/2012/03/31/bush-senior-buys-chevy-volt/

Perhaps he wants to check if theres weapons of mass destruction under the hood, or he knows a good car when he sees one.


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## Dune

Seasoned Oak said:


> Heres a blow to the right and to fox news as well
> http://gm-volt.com/2012/03/31/bush-senior-buys-chevy-volt/
> 
> Perhaps he wants to check if theres weapons of mass destruction under the hood, or he knows a good car when he sees one.


 
That is seriously awesome news. THANKS


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## begreen

Bush Sr. drives his own car? That really is news! lol


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## mywaynow

begreen said:


> As far as pissing away money, we seem to be experts at this. For example, during the 90's the US gave massive tax credits to companies (ATT, Qwest, etc.) for laying fiber optic cables. How much? About 25 billion in tax credits. Then, in it's infinite wisdom Congress deregulated this industry. Guess what that massive fiber optic infrastructure is doing now... it's about 90% unused and idle.


 
Let us not forget during the 2010s how we, I mean the president, gave away millions of hard working peoples money to the UAW so they could take over much of GM.  Let us also look at how this new GM was given tax credits to the tune of 45 billion dollars as carry forward losses resulting from the structured bankruptcy.  And to date, the American taxpayer is still awaiting repayment of the stock purchases which must get to 53/share in order to break even.  GM is now 25.


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## stoveguy2esw

begreen said:


> Mike, oil based energy is not going to be cheap any more. That era is past. We are no longer in a world with a glut of cheap 3d world oil. Now there are countries that are going to outbid us for this resource. We are shipping a large amount of our refined oil products to Mexico because they will pay more. We needed a comprehensive energy policy 30 years ago when it was obvious that this was on the horizon. Carter tried, but Regan chose to regress and put the country back on the credit card instead. Now the debt is getting too high. You can't keep kicking this can down the road.
> 
> As far as pissing away money, we seem to be experts at this. For example, during the 90's the US gave massive tax credits to companies (ATT, Qwest, etc.) for laying fiber optic cables. How much? About 25 billion in tax credits. Then, in it's infinite wisdom Congress deregulated this industry. Guess what that massive fiber optic infrastructure is doing now... it's about 90% unused and idle.




http://wtnnews.com/articles/3180/


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## stoveguy2esw

begreen said:


> Bush Sr. drives his own car? That really is news! lol




bought it for his son, i expect being a former POTUS and getting on in years he rates a driver. was a pilot during ww-2 if i remember correctly he flew Avengers, but may have been the dauntless (i'd have to look) theres a picture out there showing him being fished outta the ocean by a sub think it was Dace but again im not certain and would have to look it up


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## Dune

stoveguy2esw said:


> http://wtnnews.com/articles/3180/


 
Mike, your linked article is six years old. Are you trying to prove BeGreen correct?


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## begreen

This horse has been beaten to death and is getting into more ash can territory. The OP's question has sort of been answered, but unfortunately not by first hand experience. Closing thread.


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