# Anybody need a boiler?



## Bad Wolf (Aug 14, 2012)

*I don't need one but I saw this...*



*Wood Boiler - $5000 (East Haddam)*

Date: 2012-08-14, 11:11AM EDT
Reply to: pcvv5-3204802643@sale.craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads?]

Wood burning gasification boiler. 100,000 BTU Econoburn Boiler. Used 1 season. First $5,000.00 takes complete set-up "boiler ,controls,exhaust hood with blower motor,primary piping loop. Installation can be provided for addittional cost. 

Location: East Haddam
it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests
PostingID: 3204802643

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## heaterman (Aug 14, 2012)

Wonder what the reason is for selling?


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Aug 14, 2012)

Too hot already in the house, why would anyone need a boiler?


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## velvetfoot (Aug 14, 2012)

Then, there's this CL ad near me:
http://catskills.craigslist.org/for/3158352763.html








Vigas Model 40 Wood Gasification Boiler - $4900 (Northeast Ct)

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Date: 2012-08-14, 7:21AM EDT
 Reply to: qktdj-3158352763@sale.craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads?] 
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For sale .........A brand new crated Model Vigas model 40 (136k btu) wood gasification boiler.I have a forklift available to load on your truck.I also have a model 60 and 80 in stock.

Physical dimensions are
 Weight 1,034 lbs
 45" depth
 29" wide
 54" tall

I will remove this ad when the boiler is sold.
 Richard 860 576 3593


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## woodsmaster (Aug 14, 2012)

heaterman said:


> Wonder what the reason is for selling?


 
 Probably have to sell the house for one reason or another and the boiler don't add any value so may as well sell it. That would be my guess. Im going threw a divorce and thought I might have to sell mine, but I think I'll be able to keep the house now hopefully. I have way more in it than markit value right now.


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## amateur cutter (Aug 14, 2012)

What can anyone tell me about the vigas boilers. Would I need storage to be able to heat 2400 sq ft? A C


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## nrcrash (Aug 14, 2012)

It's a black market Vigas boiler and does not have the ul stickers on them that you would need for your insurance company to cover you and for the local inspectors to sign off on.  I'm in the process of installing a Vigas 40 with 1000 gallons of storage to heat my 3500 sqft home.  The lambada controls are what sold me on the boilers.  The dampers self adjust, unlike the biomass or ekos that have to be adjusted manually.  When I started looking into getting a gasifier I almost bought a biomass but after seeing thread after thread on this website about people not being able to get there biomass/eko to burn well I decided that it they where not the boilers for me.  Its 2012, time to start burning like it is.


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## nrcrash (Aug 14, 2012)

You don't NEED storage for a Vigas. But you might want to upsize the boiler so that you have the btus when you need it.  Depending on you insulation, you might want to think about a 60.  Give AHONA a call.  They are very helpful.


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## Frozen Canuck (Aug 14, 2012)

Yes AC for that size in that zone with doors opening & closing storage would be a must if you value sleep that is. Plenty of threads about members doing a DIY storage with propane tanks. At least that's a place to start. 1000 gal is likely a bare minimum for your shop/house loads. Prob much more comfort/break from firing with 2000.


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## amateur cutter (Aug 14, 2012)

Frozen Canuck said:


> Yes AC for that size in that zone with doors opening & closing storage would be a must if you value sleep that is. Plenty of threads about members doing a DIY storage with propane tanks. At least that's a place to start. 1000 gal is likely a bare minimum for your shop/house loads. Prob much more comfort/break from firing with 2000.


 
Thanks F C, I'd kinda guessed as much due to the high heat load the shop puts on any type of heating system. I may still go with an owb for space sake, but I think I'm pretty much sold on a gasser for the efficiency/enviro factor. Time & the checkbook will tell the tale as we go along here. Thanks for all the help. A C


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## Frozen Canuck (Aug 14, 2012)

I hear ya AC, for what it's worth I own an OWB & I could not in good conscience recommend one to another person, wish I had found this site a long time ago. There would have been no OWB in my yard. My load up here 2500 sq ft living space no shop, garage or big doors to open. My wood consumption 22 - 25 chords per year. You may get very lucky & just get by with 25 chords with those doors but I am inclinded to think more would be needed. Bogy Dave IIRC was burning 50 chord in his owb in alaska, you will see his thread in here about installing a gasser. (Yep all that wood gets tiring after awhile). Not to mention costly.


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## PassionForFire&Water (Aug 15, 2012)

nrcrash said:


> It's a black market Vigas boiler and does not have the ul stickers on them that you would need for your insurance company to cover you and for the local inspectors to sign off on. I'm in the process of installing a Vigas 40 with 1000 gallons of storage to heat my 3500 sqft home. The lambada controls are what sold me on the boilers. The dampers self adjust, unlike the biomass or ekos that have to be adjusted manually. When I started looking into getting a gasifier I almost bought a biomass but after seeing thread after thread on this website about people not being able to get there biomass/eko to burn well I decided that it they where not the boilers for me. Its 2012, time to start burning like it is.


 
What is a black market boiler?
Looks like the guy on CL has 3 black maket boilers ....


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## PassionForFire&Water (Aug 15, 2012)

nrcrash said:


> You don't NEED storage for a Vigas. But you might want to upsize the boiler so that you have the btus when you need it. Depending on you insulation, you might want to think about a 60. Give AHONA a call. They are very helpful.


 
ALWAYS storage for any type of cord wood boiler!
ALWAYS return water temperature protection for a cord wood boiler! Do a good heat loss calculation, within 10%, and try to undersize the boiler output slightly.
ALWAYS burn wood that is below 20%, or better 18% in moisture content.
Succes guaranteed.
Did I miss something?


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## BoilerMan (Aug 15, 2012)

I think you hit the nail on the head Marc. Oversize is the worst thing one can do Especially w/o storage, boiler idleing is to be avoided.  With storage, boiler output just needs to charge the tanks, the faster the better in most cases from a convienence standpoint.

TS


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## amateur cutter (Aug 15, 2012)

Frozen Canuck said:


> I hear ya AC, for what it's worth I own an OWB & I could not in good conscience recommend one to another person, wish I had found this site a long time ago. There would have been no OWB in my yard. My load up here 2500 sq ft living space no shop, garage or big doors to open. My wood consumption 22 - 25 chords per year. You may get very lucky & just get by with 25 chords with those doors but I am inclinded to think more would be needed. Bogy Dave IIRC was burning 50 chord in his owb in alaska, you will see his thread in here about installing a gasser. (Yep all that wood gets tiring after awhile). Not to mention costly.


 
20 to 25 full cord of wood? Holy chit! I can be comfortable now with 8-10 cord in my old furnace. People around here tend to burn 5-10 cord in their owb depending on insulation, m c & wood quality. I've got a buddy that runs his 365 days a year for dhw, family of 4 good tight house @ 2500 ft, & he only uses 12 cord a year. Fills the boiler 2X a day in winter, & once every 2-3 days in summer. This is a non gasifier CB 5036 classic I think. 

Please understand, I'm not trying to argue or be critical here @ all, just curious as to what I'm missing. I wouldn't spend a nickel on a boiler if I didn't think it would save loading & splitting time, & maybe it wont? A C


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## hobbyheater (Aug 15, 2012)

amateur cutter said:


> What can anyone tell me about the vigas boilers.


 
From a standpoint of refractory, the boiler is simple.  The nozzle in the fire box would be easy to change and if necessary could be made by the owner. The lower chamber has a simple arrangement of fire brick.


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## velvetfoot (Aug 15, 2012)

Black market?  Wouldn't it be more like 'grey market', like the BMW's of yore.  Is the Vigas the BMW of wood boilers?


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## velvetfoot (Aug 15, 2012)

Allan, 
You're saying that repairs could be done pretty easily by an owner?
Could replacement parts be purchased, if indeed the unit was 'grey market'?
(Is the possibility that it's grey market even be likely if the unit runs on 120V/60 cycle?)


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## mikefrommaine (Aug 15, 2012)

velvetfoot said:


> Black market?  Wouldn't it be more like 'grey market', like the BMW's of yore.  Is the Vigas the BMW of wood boilers?




No the BioMass Wood boiler is the BMW of boilers.


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## mikefrommaine (Aug 15, 2012)

nrcrash said:


> It's a black market Vigas boiler and does not have the ul stickers on them that you would need for your insurance company to cover you and for the local inspectors to sign off on.  I'm in the process of installing a Vigas 40 with 1000 gallons of storage to heat my 3500 sqft home.  The lambada controls are what sold me on the boilers.  The dampers self adjust, unlike the biomass or ekos that have to be adjusted manually.  When I started looking into getting a gasifier I almost bought a biomass but after seeing thread after thread on this website about people not being able to get there biomass/eko to burn well I decided that it they where not the boilers for me.  Its 2012, time to start burning like it is.





nrcrash said:


> You don't NEED storage for a Vigas. But you might want to upsize the boiler so that you have the btus when you need it.  Depending on you insulation, you might want to think about a 60.  Give AHONA a call.  They are very helpful.



Nrcrash= undercover vigas salesman?

I personally liked the simplicity of the eko and biomass wood boilers.  When adjusted properly, which is easy to do thanks to the the help of the boiler room most seem quite happy with them. I don't recall many threads where people couldn't get them to burn well.


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## hobbyheater (Aug 15, 2012)

amateur cutter said:


> 20 to 25 full cord of wood? Holy chit! I can be comfortable now with 8-10 cord in my old furnace.


 
Where I live the climate is very moderate with 5-10 days in January at 5 to 10 degrees F, Mid Oct to end of April on average 35-45 F and this summer only 5 days that have not required heat as we are near the salt water and it is very damp.
Our house is early 70s construction - 3400 sq ft., R12 in the walls and R20 in the ceiling.  Our first boiler, like the one pictured below, burned 20 cords a year. Our second one was a cast iron down drafter that burned 16 cords per year which was reduced to 10 cords when storage was added.  The Jetstream burns on average 4 1/2 cords per year to supply the same load.
If your old furnace is burning 8-10 cords, a good gasification boiler and storage should burn half of that to supply the same load! A heat loss calculation for the house would be the only true way to determine how much wood you are going to burn.
Have also added a picture of the inside of the chimney after burning 2 cords - gasification burns clean .


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## hobbyheater (Aug 15, 2012)

velvetfoot said:


> Allan,
> You're saying that repairs could be done pretty easily by an owner?
> Could replacement parts be purchased, if indeed the unit was 'grey market'?


The Jetstream boiler that I have has been out of production for some time so I have to make my own refractory components. The nozzle in the Vigas could be made by a good handyman and the fire brick for the lower chamber could be purchased where wood stoves are sold.
http://www.ahona.com/ . No need to purchase parts on the "grey market"!
I have no hands-on experience with the Vigas, but having had to learn how to maintain the refractory on a boiler that is out of production, I like what I see in the simplicity of the Vigas refractory system.


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## velvetfoot (Aug 15, 2012)

Thanks.  For my well-insulated 2000 ft2 colonial, I think both subject boilers are too big.
I like what you say about simplicity, but with the lambda, while making some things simple, could be neutralized with one errant voltage spike.


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## nrcrash (Aug 15, 2012)

nope, not a vigas salesman. 

I just took a look at the top threads on this forum and one is "fine tuning a eko" the other is ...... wait for it..... "fine tuning a biomass".  I didn't notice the "fine tuning a boiler with lambada".  I agree, this website is great and everyone if very helpful.  But if I can buy a boiler for a little more money the adjusts itself and not have to worry about having to read thread after thread on what worked for people with this height chimney and what work for someone that was burning oak compared to pine, I am going to by spend the extra money.

Don't get me wrong, my set up isn't even running yet.  But I haven't seen one person complain about how a vigas burns yet.  I like the idea of self adjusting, instead of having to babysit my boiler.  Like you said mikefrommaine- "*most *people seem quite happy with them".  I didn't want to chance it.

I had a mini bike when i was growing up, where I had to adjust the carburetor from time to time to get it running correctly.  I don't recall that problem in my friends BMW............   

I love this website, everyone is very helpful.  Everyone also loves to argue and express their different options.


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## PassionForFire&Water (Aug 15, 2012)

nrcrash said:


> nope, not a vigas salesman.
> 
> I just took a look at the top threads on this forum and one is "fine tuning a eko" the other is ...... wait for it..... "fine tuning a biomass". I didn't notice the "fine tuning a boiler with lambada". .


 
Lamb*a*da is a Latin dance


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## nrcrash (Aug 15, 2012)

Velvet foot-surge protector


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## nrcrash (Aug 15, 2012)

I agree sometimes you can over complicate things and that was my of my conserns with the lambada controls.  But then I realized that I like indoor plumbing, air conditioning, color tv and I think I will enjoy my updated boiler.  Rather than taking a dump in a -10 degree outhouse after watching a black and white tv and adjusting my biomass.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Aug 15, 2012)

Well, looks like the new software didn't incorporate a bullSheetz filter . . .

I have no stock in whatever unit newbies purchase, but to say that you read the boards and based on all the problems tuning the EKO/Biomass is just pure bullSheetz. If you're not a salesman for Vigas, then you're just a rable rouser. If you want to argue, go do it in the street. Maybe we'll get to see you on COPS.

Most units bantered about in the Forum have strengths. They ALL have weaknesses. Including yours. Too bad you haven't even used it yet, so you don't know what they are yet


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## nrcrash (Aug 15, 2012)

"newbies".  What's this high school and u guys are gonna try dragging me outside to beat up the new kid?


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## nrcrash (Aug 15, 2012)

I apologize if I hurt anyone's feelings who has brand loyalty to any other brand than Vigas

Some asks about the Vigas boiler and I explained why I went with that brand.  Thought I could save someone the hours I spent reading what the oldies on this site had to say about each brand.

I am sure my Vigas has shortcomings as does anything.  But after talking to sales reps for biomass, Vigas and eko it seemed like the right boiler for me.


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## stee6043 (Aug 15, 2012)

PassionForFire&Water said:


> ALWAYS storage for any type of cord wood boiler!
> ALWAYS return water temperature protection for a cord wood boiler! Do a good heat loss calculation, within 10%, and try to undersize the boiler output slightly.
> ALWAYS burn wood that is below 20%, or better 18% in moisture content.
> Succes guaranteed.
> Did I miss something?


 
A grossly misleading post, at best.  It's unfortunate when folks come on sites like this one looking for proper information and see these types of posts as "gospel" from someone who might be in "in the know".

You will not find any highly trained boiler professionals that will be able to provide you with concrete data suggesting storage measurably improves performance or efficiency of a PROPERLY sized boiler installation.  Storage is first and foremost a convenience item.  It can potentially increase efficiency in those cases where an oversized boiler has been installed in a system.  A properly sized and properly operated boiler does not need storage.  That being said, I will agree that many boilers seem to be installed in an oversized condition without storage.  This does not, however, validate the position that "all boilers need storage" because that's just not the case.  It's far better to say "all boilers should be properly sized OR have storage if oversized".

Why would anyone in their right mind ever undersize a boiler on a system with storage (since you initially said we should ALWAYS have storage)?  What is the logic?  I've never heard such a suggestion.  In fact it's the opposite of what 99% of the experienced storage users on this site would likely recommend.  I'm not aware of any downside associated with oversizing a boiler on a system with thermal storage.  In fact I beleive there are numerous advantages to oversizing boilers in this case.  Users are able to charge storage more quickly with larger boilers potentially reducing the number of trips to the boiler during burn cycles and quite possibly reducing the overall length of time the boiler actually has to run.  I have on more than one occasion wished I had a 60 as opposed to the 40.  Even though the 40 is technically still oversized for my home (not taking into account storage capacity).  A 60 would likely have allowed me to start my fires later in the day during normal heating season.

Just my two cents of course.  I am not a heating/cooling professional.


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## mikefrommaine (Aug 15, 2012)

^^^^
And in many cases stepping up to a 60 from a 40 allows you to burn longer sticks of wood. Its nice to be able to cut 24" pieces of wood instead of 18-20"


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## velvetfoot (Aug 15, 2012)

This is something I, personally, didn't realize.  Not to ask for any big generalizations based on limited info, no heat loss calc, and such, but would a (inside) 40, with a moderate amount of storage, do the trick for a 6-year old well-insulated 2000 ft2 colonial in my location?  Thinking in terms of fossil-burning boilers, a 25 would probably be more suitable.


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## henfruit (Aug 16, 2012)

Ditto to Stee. Velvet  a 40 would be fine. A 25 may need to be fired more often on colder weather. Black Market boilers were bought in Europe shipped to the US then tried to sell them with out UL.They offer no warranty or customer service or parts.


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## heaterman (Aug 16, 2012)

amateur cutter said:


> 20 to 25 full cord of wood? Holy chit! I can be comfortable now with 8-10 cord in my old furnace. People around here tend to burn 5-10 cord in their owb depending on insulation, m c & wood quality. I've got a buddy that runs his 365 days a year for dhw, family of 4 good tight house @ 2500 ft, & he only uses 12 cord a year. Fills the boiler 2X a day in winter, & once every 2-3 days in summer. This is a non gasifier CB 5036 classic I think.
> 
> Please understand, I'm not trying to argue or be critical here @ all, just curious as to what I'm missing. I wouldn't spend a nickel on a boiler if I didn't think it would save loading & splitting time, & maybe it wont? A C


 

Nearly impossible to compare house to house numbers as they all have different heating loads and operator habits. Too many variables to say, " Joe Sixpack has a brand ZZZ owb and he burns 8 cord while Bertha Winebottom has brand AAA and she burns 14." They are different people, who burn different wood, that live in different houses, that have different heat loss characteristics, that set their thermostats differently, etc etc.

What I will say is this. Any decent gasification boiler will heat the same space using 25-40% less wood than a typical owb.


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## hobbyheater (Aug 21, 2012)

stee6043 said:


> A grossly misleading post, at best. It's unfortunate when folks come on sites like this one looking for proper information and see these types of posts as "gospel" from someone who might be in "in the know".
> 
> You will not find any highly trained boiler professionals that will be able to provide you with concrete data suggesting storage measurably improves performance or efficiency of a PROPERLY sized boiler installation. Storage is first and foremost a convenience item. It can potentially increase efficiency in those cases where an oversized boiler has been installed in a system. A properly sized and properly operated boiler does not need storage. That being said, I will agree that many boilers seem to be installed in an oversized condition without storage. This does not, however, validate the position that "all boilers need storage" because that's just not the case. It's far better to say "all boilers should be properly sized OR have storage if oversized".
> 
> ...


 
The highly trained professionals- Eco , Biomass,Effecta, Tarm in their manuals all point out increased efficieny can be attained using storage .
The Properly sized boiler installation could not be a year round operation without storage !
Why would anyone in their right mind undersize a boiler? Physics.  Bigger boiler larger mass in the boiler itself to heat each time you heat your storage.


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## velvetfoot (Aug 21, 2012)

On the other hand, if the boiler is inside the house, that heat wouldn't be totally wasted.


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## stee6043 (Aug 23, 2012)

hobbyheater said:


> The highly trained professionals- Eco , Biomass,Effecta, Tarm in their manuals all point out increased efficieny can be attained using storage .
> The Properly sized boiler installation could not be a year round operation without storage !
> Why would anyone in their right mind undersize a boiler? Physics. Bigger boiler larger mass in the boiler itself to heat each time you heat your storage.


 
Well I was careful to use terms like properly sized and properly operated but I can understand that some will not read ALL of the words in a post and quickly chose to respond nonetheless.

I'd love to see your heat transfer/heat loss calcs that can explain how under-sizing a boiler with storage will ever in a million years provide enhanced system performance and efficiency.  In your words "more mass" to heat in the boiler itself is 100% irrelevant.  If you would claim it absorbs more heat on the front end of a burn cycle you would also have to concede that it will retain heat longer at the end of said cycle.  Net change = 0.

I don't set out to purposely be disagreeable with anyone on this site.  And I've said it a million times...I'm not an HVAC professional.  But I do have more thermodynamics background than the average person and I do try to share some of what I do know from time to time.


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