# Energy upgrade for recessed lights?



## semipro (Nov 22, 2010)

Anyone here have any experience with modifying existing recessed (can) lights for energy efficiency?  The ones we have are about 25 years old some I'm pretty sure they're allowing air leakage.  I know some newer units are completely airtight and attic insulation can be placed around them.  I'm considering upgrading the bulbs to something that runs cooler (CF or LED) and then sealing them up airtight and covering them with spray foam in the attic but this may hot be a good idea.  

Maybe there is some sort of energy retrofits that are available?  

To complicate matters, the attic where these are installed is not easy to get to.  I'll have to do some cutting.


----------



## Highbeam (Nov 22, 2010)

I installed 8 sealed IC rated can lights this last year. They are really nice. Since you have the wires there you can jsut remove the old cans and install new ones from beneath. They make these things to mount to the sheetrock only like an old work box. Toughest part will be removing the old can.


----------



## seige101 (Nov 23, 2010)

If you are looking for some LED recessed lighting info check out this recent thread. https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/62652/

My thought instead of sealing up the can what about a small bead of caulk on the ceiling and then smoosh the trim into it, effectively making your own air seal?

As highbeam said you could just remove the existing can and install an old work one in the same hole.


----------



## begreen (Nov 23, 2010)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> I installed 8 sealed IC rated can lights this last year. They are really nice. Since you have the wires there you can jsut remove the old cans and install new ones from beneath. They make these things to mount to the sheetrock only like an old work box. Toughest part will be removing the old can.



We have a lot of old recessed cans in this house. I need to remove them or update. Can you provide some links to the product you chose and more details about the change?


----------



## semipro (Nov 23, 2010)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> I installed 8 sealed IC rated can lights this last year. They are really nice. Since you have the wires there you can jsut remove the old cans and install new ones from beneath. They make these things to mount to the sheetrock only like an old work box. Toughest part will be removing the old can.



I came across these while researching.  The problem with doing this is that it doesn't seem that I can't easily insulate around the cans to prevent heat loss. Since I have to access from the attic side to insulate anyway I was thinking I could find a retrofit that I could do from the top that would attach to the framing instead of just relying upon the sheetrock clips.


----------



## semipro (Nov 23, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Highbeam said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Found these at HomeDepot: http://tinyurl.com/28y3p3p  (Halo 6 in. Shallow Insulation Contact Air-Tite Remodel Housing, Model # H27RICAT, Internet # 202024769, Store SKU # 845262) 

They are airtight and rated for direct contact of the insulation.  This may be similar to what Highbeam used.


----------



## Highbeam (Nov 23, 2010)

The home depot had these old work IC boxes. Similar if not exactly like semipro found. I chose to use new work boxes since I had access from above. 

Realize that even the new work boxes depend on the sheetrock to make their seal and provide support. The cans aren't rigidly mounted to the framing like a ceiling fan box but instead use a really flexy and weak metal support bar system intended to just hold them in place until the sheetrock guys do their work.  

I went further and after installation took a caulk gun and gooped up many of the little holes that remained in even the "airtight" cans. Made sure the cans were well seated on their gaskets against the ceiling and then blew insulation on top of it all. Before the extra caulking I could feel a draft when I put my hand into the can.

With my low ceilings, the cans really improved the apparent ceiling height. I put in CFLs and have gotten great life out of them.


----------



## semipro (Nov 23, 2010)

I ended up picking these up at HD (http://tinyurl.com/2ahzrj6) and anticipate doing exactly what Highbeam said as far as sealing them up, installing from above, and placing insulation around them.  I plan to use dimmable CFs in them until I can (want to) afford LEDs.  

These are right above our Jacuzzi tub, a bad place for drafts. Thanks all!


----------



## Hogwildz (Nov 23, 2010)

Semipro said:
			
		

> I ended up picking these up at HD (http://tinyurl.com/2ahzrj6) and anticipate doing exactly what Highbeam said as far as sealing them up, installing from above, and placing insulation around them.  I plan to use dimmable CFs in them until I can (want to) afford LEDs.
> 
> These are right above our Jacuzzi tub, a bad place for drafts. Thanks all!



Where did you find the dimmable CF's? I was looking for them a few years back.


----------



## semipro (Nov 24, 2010)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> Semipro said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Home Depot had them in regular and mini spot sizes.


----------



## DBoon (Nov 24, 2010)

Seriously, just get new IC-rated (Insulation Contact rated) recessed cans.  You might have to seal up a crack or two with caulk - IC rated doesn't mean no holes.  Then, use flourescent or LED PAR lights.


----------



## RustyShackleford (Dec 5, 2010)

My house has tons of 6" Halo "can" fixtures.   After 20 years of paying $5 or so a pop for reflector bulbs
that lasted 2000 hours if I was lucky, and cold air leaking around the things, I'd had enough.

So I replaced the "trim" piece with some new ones that are both air-tight and specular.  So the "can" now
holds a shiny reflector, which forms an air-tight seal. This means I can use regular (i.e. not reflector) bulbs,
be they incandescent or CFL.

My experience is that so-called dim-able CFLs simply do not work.   They have maybe two brightness
settings in practice, and they seem to burn out prematurely.   So if you REALLY need dimmable, use
incandescent and wait for LEDs to become affordable.

The Halo trims I got are called 30CAT and 30PAT and I got them considerably cheaper (about $10 each)
by looking around the web.

http://www.beverlyhillselectric.com/halo30.html

You also want to get the little foam rings that seal the bottom of the thing against your ceiling
drywall (or improvise something similar).


----------



## begreen (Dec 5, 2010)

Semipro said:
			
		

> I ended up picking these up at HD (http://tinyurl.com/2ahzrj6) and anticipate doing exactly what Highbeam said as far as sealing them up, installing from above, and placing insulation around them.  I plan to use dimmable CFs in them until I can (want to) afford LEDs.
> 
> These are right above our Jacuzzi tub, a bad place for drafts. Thanks all!



How did you replace them without cutting open a bay in the sheetroock to drop them out, then install the new one, then patch the sheetrock? If I am going to all that trouble then I think I will just remove the two dining room cans, put in a 4" box and install a hanging lamp. 

For the other cans, the air-tight baffles are intriguing. We have a lot in our house too. Have you noticed any difference since installing them?

http://www.cooperlighting.com/webDB/documents/halo/buyersGuide/BLR_30_Pg123.pdf


----------



## fishingpol (Dec 6, 2010)

My situation was similar to Rusty's.  I had remodel Halo cans in kitchen.  Used an incense smoke stick one day and saw what a draft these lights had.  2 over the sink were smaller size.  When I had a few walls insulated with blown in cellulose, the insul was pushed against the cans and overheated.  That was pretty unnerving.  I removed those cans and put in boxes with hanging fixtures.  The others in the center of the room will get the same treatment once I have found a low clearance light that I like as the ceiling is just over 7 feet.  IC is the way to go, if you can.


----------



## semipro (Dec 6, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Semipro said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I  didn't end up installing those.  I was going to access from above for the install but there's not enough room.  I may try airtight old work models and install from below or just install a box and hang a normal light.  I picked up these today and will try them first though.  http://tinyurl.com/28y3p3p


----------



## semipro (Dec 6, 2010)

RustyShackleford said:
			
		

> My house has tons of 6" Halo "can" fixtures.   After 20 years of paying $5 or so a pop for reflector bulbs
> that lasted 2000 hours if I was lucky, and cold air leaking around the things, I'd had enough.
> 
> So I replaced the "trim" piece with some new ones that are both air-tight and specular.  So the "can" now
> ...



Our current lights have the foam rings on the trim but were installed so with the can too low so they don't seal well.  Our existing lights are not IC so I want to switch to some that are.  

We've had the same problems with dimmable CFLs.  I'm trying out some LEDs in another set of recessed lights.


----------



## RustyShackleford (Dec 6, 2010)

Semipro said:
			
		

> [
> Our current lights have the foam rings on the trim but were installed so with the can too low so they don't seal well.


The foam on the trim rings is nice, but I want to make sure I've made the point that for the reflector-type I used, the reflector is a solid (shiny) dome of metal that tapers all the way up to the socket, and the socket clips into the hole in the top of this dome (and there's also a little foam thingy there).   So the whole thing really is pretty much airtight.     In fact, these models of trim have the word "Air-Tite" in their name.


----------



## semipro (Dec 6, 2010)

RustyShackleford said:
			
		

> Semipro said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I sort of got that the first time but...   So are you thinking that if these were installed in a standard leaky old can then the fixture would be basically airtight?  I still wouldn't have and IC approved fixture though but it does have thermal protection device built in and we would be using low wattage bulbs.  This is moving towards what DBoon suggested now.


----------



## RustyShackleford (Dec 6, 2010)

Semipro said:
			
		

> RustyShackleford said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't see why not.   That's basically what I'm thinking is the case for me.   Certainly a huge improvement over what I had, never mind the ability to use non-reflector bulbs now.


> I still wouldn't have and IC approved fixture though but it does have thermal protection device built in and we would be using low wattage bulbs.


I don't think using the air-tite trims would make thermal problems more likely, probably the opposite.


----------



## semipro (Dec 7, 2010)

RustyShackleford said:
			
		

> Semipro said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I wasn't thinking that the air-tite trims would cause overheating but I was considering packing insulation around the light after getting it "airtight".  I was concerned that adding the insulation might cause overheating. 

Thanks for the info.  I'm going to see if there are any airtight reflectors available for my existing cans which I don't believe are Halo brand.


----------



## semipro (Dec 12, 2010)

Semipro said:
			
		

> RustyShackleford said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Rusty, thanks for your response.  I ended up finding and installing airtight reflectors like the ones you used.  Installing these was a whole lot easier than the other viable options.   I sealed up the air holes in the existing cans from the bottom, installed the new airtight reflectors, and installed some dimmable CF bulbs.  I also placed more loose fiberglass around the cans from above and labeled the fixtures for a 25 watt maximum bulb.


----------



## RustyShackleford (Dec 12, 2010)

Semipro said:
			
		

> Semipro said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Glad it worked out.  So even the non-IC cans are ok being sealed up and with insulation if you do not exceed 25w ?
(Or am I spacing out and you have IC ?)   I hope the dimmables work better for you than for me.   MAYBE I would have
had better luck with a different dimmer, I never really followed up on that carefully.


----------



## semipro (Dec 14, 2010)

RustyShackleford said:
			
		

> Semipro said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The 25 watt limit label is my way of trying to ensure that the lights don't overheat because I sealed up non-IC lights; nothing official.  They do have thermal overload switches which should protect them. 

Actually, the dimmable CFs I installed didn't work out.  They won't go low enough for our application.  For now, I've replaced them with 25 watt incandescent spots. We did install a set of LEDs in another set of can lights and they work well.


----------

