# Composition shingles



## EatenByLimestone (May 19, 2016)

I'm surprised I haven't seen a thread discussing these.  We talk a lot about the solar panel bolted to them, but little about the shingle.  Are these shingles nearing the end of their run?  In an era where coal power plants get the stink eye, is nailing a slab of asphalt and fiberglass with rocks sprinkled onto it a green or socially acceptable option?  What are some options for a roof that has always had asphalt, and an owner doesn't want to go with metal?


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## woodgeek (May 20, 2016)

A great question....

From my POV both fiberglass and rocks are perfectly green, except for some embodied energy for the former.  The asphalt is IMO a byproduct of petroleum production....if we hadn't started building roads with the stuff, we would have had mountains of it piled up all over that would've made the pyramids look like molehills.  Since global petroleum production is, um, still at a record high, there is way more asphalt out there than anyone needs.

And at the end of life, those shingles go to a landfill....you're burying heavy petroleum....carbon sequestration!

Not to get OT, but I happen to be of the opinion that all cyclic hydrocarbons---from the 0.5% one-ring benzene in gasoline to the multi-ring asphaltenes in asphalt, and everything in between---are presumed potent *carcinogens*.  Your precious DNA looks like a stack of hydrophobic, three-ring cyclic hydrocarbons....a lot of these petroleum cyclics will just snuggle right in between the bases and literally monkeywrench all your DNA replication and repair machinery.  There are *dozens* of large-scale demographic studies that show things like living near a gas station increases your total lifetime cancer risk by 50-100%, and the effect depends on distance.  The problem here is that petroleum cyclic exposure is such a ubiquitous thing, it is hard to isolate demographically.

I think when we look back after the age of fossil fuels is over, we will remark that the baseline cancer rate from 1900-2050 was more than double that of the preceding and following periods, and the fact that we were producing gigatons of volatile, smelly carcinogens **intentionally** and shipping them all over the planet, storing them inside our attached garages, using them as shingles and waterproofing tars and other building materials (tar paper), building massive asphalt roads through every block of our communites and driving heavy machinery over them pulverizing it into dust we eat and breath....well, it will seem like a world gone completely *MAD*.

Yeah, I guess I can live without the asphalt.


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## peakbagger (May 20, 2016)

Slate with copper flashing can be a very a long lasting roof, put ice and water shield under it and it will last 100 plus years. Its expensive (3 or 4 times that of shingles) and not a lot of contractors are skilled at installing it. The SW uses a lot of tile roofing systems.  There are also several composite concrete tile systems that come and go.

It all comes down to economics, few folks plan to live in the same house for more than 20 years and most likely are unwilling to pay the substantial premium up front. The old standard was put a second layer down and that gets a roof out to 40 years. They are cheap, easy to install and don't require skilled labor. The swap to fiberglass reinforcement also allows a 30 to 40 year lifespan for double layer architectural shingles. 

The problem with roofing systems is they have to be good at several things at the same time. They have to deal with significant expansion and contraction (-30 to 95 in my area), they have to be waterproof and have to stand up to long term UV degradation. Shingles in theory are the lowest cost way to cover all three, although most commercial installers (and smart homeowners)put ice and water shield underneath.

I don't understand your bias against steel systems, with the appropriate surface coating steel can last a long time. The Galvalume coating process lasts a long time as long as there isn't unusual surface abrasion. There are also embossed and patterned finish systems that don't have to look like typical standing seam.

You probably notice my reference to Ice and Water Shield, its a modified bitumen system that seals tenaciously to the underlying roof sheathing. It also self seals any fasteners and roof penetrations. If protected from UV it has very long lifetime. Its a no brainer now to put a layer under the entire roof. That decouples the need for the roofing to be both waterproof and resilient as well as UV resistant, the roofing now only needs to be durable and uv resistant while the water shield takes care of waterproof and resistant. The other bonus is no chance of ice damming. I have helped demo a couple of roofs and the plywood will delaminate before the ice and water shield will tear off the plywood.


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## woodgeek (May 20, 2016)

I like Ice and Water shield as much as the next guy, and have it on my house.  But 1) are they really rating it for 100 years service life? and 2) its basically the same as a grade of asphalt, so it is hard to think it greener than an asphalt shingle (unless it DOES last 100 years).


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## peakbagger (May 20, 2016)

Asphalt doesn't readily degrade unless its exposed to UV, keep it covered and it will last longer than most folks lifetime. The ice and water shield has been around for quite awhile and has a good reputation. There is rarely if ever a warranty good for 20 years that someone collects on.  All warranty's have their fine print and few ever collect. Thus it comes down to what works in the field and Ice and water shield has been around since the mid nineteen eighties (as far as I know it may be older) and given todays date of 2016 its been out there 30 years and still quite popular. The few contractors I have talked to say its holding up and they require is now on most commercial roofs as it cuts down on call backs.  I cant guarantee a 100 year roof and expect few could, but in my opinion a durable UV resistant outer skin with separate waterproof underlayment has a far likely 100 year service life than any single component system. By the way, even slate roofs typically need major maintenance as they age, usually its the underlying flashing that corrodes out especially in urban areas where the rain is acidic. I have seen copper flashing corroded through after 40 years.


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## begreen (May 20, 2016)

Metal and tile roofing is the most common solution in much of the world including Europe and northern Asia.


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## Babaganoosh (May 20, 2016)

I had my roof done 2 years ago. I requested ice and water shield over the entire roof. They ended up forgetting and doing the standard areas. I was pretty pissed. I planned on moving my chimney and stove in a year or two and definitely  wanted it in place for when  I screwed the roof braces in. I also wanted it in place on the off chance I added solar in the future. I'm not a fan or putting unnecessary  holes in the roof and I saw it as an added layer of protection and peace of mind.  Just got pissed thinking about it again. Lol

Here in the northeast you don't see many metal roofs. Eventually someone is going to come up with a solar shingle or way to use the shingles as a WiFi booster . Who knows .


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## peakbagger (May 20, 2016)

Lots of metal roofs in VT, once the contractors  figured out to install snow clips so folks didn't get hurt by snow slides they worked a lot better. The roofing contractors I dealt with in northern NH did roofs in northern VT and they all had had learned to install ice and water shield under standing seam metal roofs as they were they sick of call backs for roof leaks. With ice and water underneath, the leaks in the standing seam run down underneath on top of the ice and water shield to the edge of the roof and no one is the wiser. Standing seam roofs are twice as expensive installed as a good shingle roof, so most houses in northern NH get shingles. In VT there seems to be "snob appeal" for standing seam. There are some contractors who advertise good prices for metal roofing, the homeowners think they are getting standing seam but what they really get is exposed fastener barn roofing. Its tough to break it to them that the rubber washers degrade in the sun eventually and so at some point they will have to replace the fasteners if the roofing is still good. Definitely a spot for ice and water shield underneath but unfortunately the roofers usually just install strapping over the existing shingles and fasten the steel to the strapping and go with some fancy flashing and fascias to cover the gaps.


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## jb6l6gc (May 20, 2016)

Babaganoosh said:


> I had my roof done 2 years ago. I requested ice and water shield over the entire roof. They ended up forgetting and doing the standard areas. I was pretty pissed. I planned on moving my chimney and stove in a year or two and definitely  wanted it in place for when  I screwed the roof braces in. I also wanted it in place on the off chance I added solar in the future. I'm not a fan or putting unnecessary  holes in the roof and I saw it as an added layer of protection and peace of mind.  Just got pissed thinking about it again. Lol
> 
> Here in the northeast you don't see many metal roofs. Eventually someone is going to come up with a solar shingle or way to use the shingles as a WiFi booster . Who knows .


I've asked two roofers on two different houses for ice and water 100% and both not only advised against it but said it's a waste of money. Their opinion was it seals roof too tight and makes attic hotter. But hey I guess I'll find out as I'm into this place for the long haul and have a 4 month old roof now with supposed 50yr gaf shingle. Lol


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## Babaganoosh (May 20, 2016)

jb6l6gc said:


> I've asked two roofers on two different houses for ice and water 100% and both not only advised against it but said it's a waste of money. Their opinion was it seals roof too tight and makes attic hotter. But hey I guess I'll find out as I'm into this place for the long haul and have a 4 month old roof now with supposed 50yr gaf shingle. Lol



I think I heard once that  it's required by code in some areas  of the country but who knows? With ridge venting , gable vents, soffit vents, and a temperature controlled exhaust fan I really don't think it will make a difference .


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## EatenByLimestone (May 21, 2016)

I bet it stops heat leaving, as in air sealing, but ridge venting should make it a non issue.


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## semipro (May 21, 2016)

Fiberglas-asphalt shingles can be recycled back into more shingles or asphalt pavement but most end up in landfills.
Though there is a lot of embodied energy in metal roofing but it is long lasting and highly recyclable.  That's what I plan to go with.
There are some great concrete shingle/tile alternatives out there that but I believe they're expensive; lots of embodied energy also, probably somehow recyclable, but very long lasting. http://www.boralamerica.com/roofing/concrete


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## EatenByLimestone (May 21, 2016)

I like the looks of those.  

I think I'd like to see more PV technology integrated into shingles.  Instead of boxes bolted to the roof, make the panel into a shingle.  





http://www.leskallc.com/Portals/110088/images/sunslate roof-resized-600.png


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## begreen (May 21, 2016)

Dow has the Powerhouse 2.0 shingle, but the power density is still low when compared with conventional panels.  Certainteed's Apollo shingles have higher output.


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## DBoon (May 21, 2016)

jb6l6gc said:


> I've asked two roofers on two different houses for ice and water 100% and both not only advised against it but said it's a waste of money. Their opinion was it seals roof too tight and makes attic hotter.


I had ice and water shield installed on 100% of my roof as an underlayment for 40 year shingles. The cost was less than $1000 extra (my recollection) 15 years ago.  The roofers commented to me that it made the roof very slippery to work on - they didn't like it at all when they were installing shingles. 

Any roofer that tells you that "roofs need to breathe" or that ice and water shield will make attics hotter are just repeating old wive's tales.  Attics need ventilation, and a modest amount on the ridge and gables/soffits will provide all that is necessary.


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## BrotherBart (May 21, 2016)

But all roofers will tell you that if you ever want that roof replaced then you are gonna be ripping a lot of the decking off after that stuff glues itself to the plywood.


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## jb6l6gc (May 21, 2016)

DBoon said:


> I had ice and water shield installed on 100% of my roof as an underlayment for 40 year shingles. The cost was less than $1000 extra (my recollection) 15 years ago.  The roofers commented to me that it made the roof very slippery to work on - they didn't like it at all when they were installing shingles.
> 
> Any roofer that tells you that "roofs need to breathe" or that ice and water shield will make attics hotter are just repeating old wive's tales.  Attics need ventilation, and a modest amount on the ridge and gables/soffits will provide all that is necessary.


Ok well I'm not a roofer so just going by what pros have told me. As well with the size of my roofs mine was 10k to replace with 50yr shingle, full gaf
Underlayment and Gracie ice and water on all valleys, penetrations and eaves and skylight . I'm sure 100% ice and water would have added another 1-1.5k.   Easy. From what I gathered from them with a quality underlayment... (Not tarpaper) it is not necessary!


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## BrotherBart (May 21, 2016)

Went through the drill two years ago. After talking to close to 30 roofers online and face to face I went with I&W on the eves and rakes only. The conversations helped since when they started the job they applyied it wrong on the rakes and I made them fix it before the shingles went on.

On the eves it goes over the drip edge. On the rakes it goes under the drip edge.


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## peakbagger (May 22, 2016)

BrotherBart said:


> But all roofers will tell you that if you ever want that roof replaced then you are gonna be ripping a lot of the decking off after that stuff glues itself to the plywood


 I am not sure what this comment means. Ice and water shield has two sides, a sticky side and a not sticky side. I have never had had any issues removing shingles from a roof covered with ice and water shield but I haven't stripped one yet in its entirety. If the roof decking needed to be replaced it would requires cutting the ice and water shield at the plywood seams with a utility knife. Of course the argument would be why does the roof deck need to be replaced if its has a waterproof membrane on top of it? Generally there is only two reasons to replace a roof deck, a roof leak from above due to missing/deteriorated shingles or rotting from underneath due to improper attic venting.

Most of the commercial roofers in my area put bottom to top ice and water shield under commercial and institutional shingles roofs and standing seams.

The downsides to ice and water shield; even with the "zip strip" its very difficult to get it to lay down straight with any sort of breeze, once its down its stuck, its does require roof staging at lower angles as it is more slippery although that is non issue if you apply in one strip at a time as you shingle up the roof;  and I expect stripping an old set of shingles is going to take longer and the shingle shovel will not slide as well under the shingles.

When I did my south side roof I knew I was going to be adding solar hot water and PV at some point. Both required multiple roof penetrations for brackets.  Having ice and water shield under the shingles made drilling the anchors in a lot easier as I didn't need to worry about sealing the holes as the ice and water shield took care of it. I still flashed them in but the ice and water shield provides a lot better backup than the typical tar paper underlayment that used to be used.


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## EatenByLimestone (May 22, 2016)

It seems like "slippery" wouldn't be any more of an issue than a 9/12 or steeper pitch roof.  Those are pretty common up here.  If its a metal roof they get slippery at such lower pitches.


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## jb6l6gc (May 22, 2016)

The roofers I've dealt with don't even use tar paper any more but instead use a synthetic underlayment. Much better than tar paper however not nearly as costly as ice and water.


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## DBoon (May 22, 2016)

I went with 100% ice and water shield since I was not sure what I would be adding for solar PV in the future, and I wanted to mitigate any future roof penetration issues.  Otherwise, not sure I would have bothered.


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## Hogwildz (Aug 7, 2016)

You are correct. Ice and water is becoming an older system. The new underlayment systems perform both the job of ice & water & tar paper. A one does all type system.
As far as others mentioning I&W being slippery, there are a few factors that lead to this. One is the brand and style of I&W. Some are smooth with a plastic like coating on top, other have granulars on the surface and are a little easier to work on. Any, on a hot day, becoming a PITA, cause they will be so soft that the asphalt actually displaces and slides under foot traffic. Of course shingles will do the same on very hot day from walking on them. 
BB is also correct, if for some reason you have to pull up plywood, the I&W will have to come up with it.
Still, a very good product and worth the added cost of the added protection.


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