# Building the MS460: Epilogue - The 2nd Saw



## MasterMech (Mar 23, 2013)

Y'all were wondering what I was going to do with the 2nd MS460, aka. that pile of parts in the corner of my shop...

Well here goes. Since used top-ends for the 046/MS460 are going for stupid money on ebay (isn't everything?  ) I decided to do this up with an aftermarket kit.





Here's what you get in the kit. There was another kit on ebay that gives you even more for less $$ but I was impatient and didn't want to wait for it to ship from Hong Kong.




The gasket/seal kit. Included the reflector foil for behind the muffler, nice touch. The exahust gasket is much thicker and a different material than OEM. The crank seals are double lip seals like the OEM parts. The case gasket is thinner than OEM and as I will show later, not an "exact" fit.





The kit included a dual-port muffler, I really like this one, it has a silencer box in the middle which my OEM Oz muffler does not, so this one should be quieter. It might have an effect on power, but my guess is it will be minimal. Considering you could buy this for $30 separately, it really is a nice piece.





The wrist pin is probably the most obviously different part in the kit. However it fit quite nicely in the piston's bore with the bearing (also included)

I guess I didn't get a photo of the piston, but other than being 54mm diameter, it looked very close to OEM.




The kit also includes a new decompression valve.





I compared the included Torch spark plug with the NGK and Bosch OEM replacements. The ceramic insulator (external) is a bit longer than the OEM plugs but seemed ok otherwise.




What the heck did they think I was going to do with that?


----------



## MasterMech (Mar 23, 2013)

​​Ah yes, the cylinder! Casting quality looks superb although the intake port looks to be off kilter a bit from the OEM jug on the right. The exhaust port is noticeably smaller too.​​
​​The left shot is my index finger in the exhaust port as far as it will go using the old OEM cylinder. The right pic shows the same "test" with the new aftermarket cylinder.  Just looking at it, the transfer ports appeared to be a bit smaller on the aftermarket cylinder as well.​​
​​Just checking the cylinder bores to show the new cylinder (left) is a 54mm part and the one on the right is the stock 52mm. I know, this is _not_ an accurate measurement but for comparison purposes, it's good enough. ​​​​So what did I do with the hole in the crankcase wall? Yup, JB Weld. Came out pretty clean.​​​​​​


----------



## DexterDay (Mar 23, 2013)

What are you lookin to do with this one? Sell it also? If so, a Hearth deal? Or is it gonna hit FleaBay? 

This is my subscription. I loved the detail of your last thread (Full OEM). Looking forward to the Aftermarket model


----------



## MasterMech (Mar 23, 2013)

As you can see, the case gasket stuck out from the case quite a bit. I trimmed the bits where the cylinder base gasket goes and wound up trimming even more from the top of the case where the reflector foil goes under the muffler.




The piston actually bottoms out about 1mm or so (just going by feel) under the bottom edge of the exhaust port. Makes me wonder if the exhaust port height can be increased by grinding the bottom edge a bit. Or perhaps removing the cylinder base gasket to bump compression a bit.... 




And there's the long-block assembled. The saw is a bit further along than that now. I will take some more pics once I get it buttoned up but this ain't gonna be a detailed build thread like the original Building The MS460 thread was. Short and sweet to find out if these cheap aftermarket parts are worth buying/using or not.

One thing I noticed is that the crank seals are very tight compared to the OEM parts. You can feel them drag on the shaft as you turn the engine over. Time will tell if they break in or self destruct!


----------



## MasterMech (Mar 23, 2013)

DexterDay said:


> What are you lookin to do with this one? Sell it also? If so, a Hearth deal? Or is it gonna hit FleaBay?


 
This one I'd have 2nd thoughts about eBaying just because of the JB weld. No doubt in my mind that the patch is good but you never know about some eBay buyers.....

If somebody was OK with what was done, and really wanted it, then I might be willing to sell it. Or it could become my personal toy to hot rod and play around with.


----------



## DexterDay (Mar 23, 2013)

Im sure a few of us would hash it out with that saw..... 

Me included


----------



## Boog (Mar 24, 2013)

As usual, really nice work there MM.  I'd hotrod that one up and run the snot out of it.  I don't know about you, but the saws I've done the most work on are the ones that I like to run the best.  My "better/newer" saws are all in storage in the basement while my rebuilds/upgrades are getting all the work.  Don't be afraid to by stuff from Hong Kong, Dex and I have and it gets here quick, just over 2 weeks for me.  Also recently ordered Caber rings from Greece from a vendor one of our NW experts told me about.  Incredibly cheap price/shipping and they were here in about 10 days.  Just ordered a second set for another saw.


----------



## MasterMech (Mar 24, 2013)

Boog Powell said:


> Don't be afraid to by stuff from Hong Kong, Dex and I have and it gets here quick, just over 2 weeks for me.


 
I'm not afraid to order from Hong Kong but in 2 weeks I'm going to be drowning in a sea of lawn tractors as the season heats up here.  Time was of the essence and this kit made it here in 3 days from FL.


----------



## DexterDay (Mar 24, 2013)

MasterMech said:


> I'm not afraid to order from Hong Kong but in 2 weeks I'm going to be drowning in a sea of lawn tractors as the season heats up here.  Time was of the essence and this kit made it here in 3 days from FL.



Time for me to get the Dixie Chopper out and get it serviced and ready for another year of Good Times. Tru-Green came last week.for the 1st time this year, so you know its getting close.  

By April 1st last year, I had already cut once and "Plugged" my yard (aerator) and the Ornamental Pear tree were in Full Bloom!


----------



## MasterMech (Mar 24, 2013)

DexterDay said:


> Time for me to get the Dixie Chopper out and get it serviced and ready for another year of Good Times. Tru-Green came last week.for the 1st time this year, so you know its getting close.
> 
> By April 1st last year, I had already cut once and "Plugged" my yard (aerator) and the Ornamental Pear tree were in Full Bloom!


Yeah, things are proceeding bit slower this year but after next week the weather _should_ let up on us some. But my phone is already ringing off the hook.


----------



## basod (Mar 24, 2013)

How much do you figure will be invested in this project?


----------



## MasterMech (Mar 24, 2013)

basod said:


> How much do you figure will be invested in this project?


What kind of answer did you have in mind? 

Between the two saws I could tally up the costs and make one more $$ than the other, even them out, take a loss one and make $$ on the other, etc and so forth.

I have roughly $600 into _both_ saws but have yet to buy a bar & chain for either one of them.  Probably will wind up being about $750 into the pair when I have bought them their own cutting hardware.


----------



## basod (Mar 24, 2013)

Sounds fair they seem to be going in the 7bill range.

I was curious how you happened upon the donors so cheap.  Small engine repair sticker shock client?


----------



## MasterMech (Mar 24, 2013)

basod said:


> I was curious how you happened upon the donors so cheap.


 
It's amazing what an F550 will do to the value of a saw. 

The first was a freebie donated by another shop.  The 2nd was an ebay deal.


----------



## MasterMech (Mar 24, 2013)

Sneak Peek!  Here's what the saw looks like now...


----------



## mikefrommaine (Mar 24, 2013)

MasterMech said:


> Between the two saws I could tally up the costs and make one more $ than the other, even them out, take a loss one and make $ on the other, etc and so forth. I have roughly $600 into _both_ saws


Well I'd break down 475/125.

I'd bail you out of this saw for 150


----------



## Freeheat (Mar 24, 2013)

Looking good mm


----------



## smokinj (Mar 24, 2013)

MasterMech said:


> Sneak Peek! Here's what the saw looks like now...
> 
> View attachment 97688
> View attachment 97689


 


Thats Clean!


----------



## MasterMech (Mar 24, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> I'd bail you out of this saw for 150


You're about a week too late.


----------



## nate379 (Mar 24, 2013)

Lawn Tractors? I was snowblowing driveways yesterday and this mornign!



MasterMech said:


> I'm not afraid to order from Hong Kong but in 2 weeks I'm going to be drowning in a sea of lawn tractors as the season heats up here. Time was of the essence and this kit made it here in 3 days from FL.


 
I put one of the dual port mufflers on my saw and I wish there was something inside the thing cause it's pretty darn loud!  Myself I don't really care, I wear PPE, but for everyone else that's within a few miles of me cutting, I'm sure they will be loving me!


----------



## MasterMech (Mar 24, 2013)

It been snowing here this week too Nate, but warm enough to melt quickly.  Possible snow in the forecast for tomorrow night (very little) and then looks to be clear from then on.  Pre-season service season for lawn equipment is on tho!


----------



## smokinj (Mar 24, 2013)

MasterMech said:


> It been snowing here this week too Nate, but warm enough to melt quickly. Possible snow in the forecast for tomorrow night (very little) and then looks to be clear from then on. Pre-season service season for lawn equipment is on tho!


 

Looks like 10 inchs here tonight and headed east.


----------



## nate379 (Mar 24, 2013)

I see.  Usually is not till mid June when the grass has grown enough to need cutting out here!



MasterMech said:


> It been snowing here this week too Nate, but warm enough to melt quickly. Possible snow in the forecast for tomorrow night (very little) and then looks to be clear from then on. Pre-season service season for lawn equipment is on tho!


----------



## MasterMech (Mar 27, 2013)

OK so a quick update for everybody. The saw is a runner, sort of. I'm not happy with the way it's running. I think the carburetor is losing it's adjustment since the limiter tabs have been tampered with and there are no springs on the needles so nothing to keep them from vibrating in or out. I can get it running great and then after a couple minutes it's all wacky again and the needles (particularly the L needle) seem to move on their own. Hard to tell since they are buried in there pretty good with these saws.

I also had to monkey with the high voltage lead for the ignition system as it wasn't carrying spark to the plug. Got that solved for now, I will most likely wind up replacing that lead in the future.

After playing with the position of the clutch side crankshaft seal, I was able to get it to seal up perfectly. (Just tapped it in the bearing a bit to give some clearance from the snap ring groove.) The saw holds pressure and vacuum perfectly and pumps out 167 psi on the compression tester. 

The first shortcoming of the aftermarket kit has revealed itself already. The damned decomp valve pops out after every pull! I personally don't need it but sheesh. 

And I desperately need to get a test log to saw on here. I have virtually no saw-able wood to play with now unless I start cutting splits in half!


----------



## mikefrommaine (Mar 27, 2013)

You have two 460's and no wood to cut?

That's just selfish.


----------



## MasterMech (Mar 27, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> You have two 460's and no wood to cut?
> 
> That's just selfish.


There's an 038 Super that just came in that's just itchin to be fed some logs too.... (but that one isn't mine)


----------



## Jags (Mar 27, 2013)

I am thinking that those adjustment screw springs are a must.

Cool beans.  You could always send the saw to me.  I have plenty of logs to cut up.


----------



## Freeheat (Mar 27, 2013)

Hey mm with all those issues I ill give you 100 for the saw ........ Lol


----------



## Jags (Mar 27, 2013)

Or better yet, grab the saw and come on out.  I gotz food and beverage.


----------



## MasterMech (Mar 27, 2013)

Jags said:


> Or better yet, grab the saw and come on out. I gotz food and beverage.


 
"Hun, I gotta go test these 3 saws, see ya next week!"


----------



## nate379 (Mar 27, 2013)

Can you start the saw without the decompression button?

There's no way I could on my 460.  I tried it once and I had to pull on it so hard that I snapped the starter rope.



MasterMech said:


> OK so a quick update for everybody. The saw is a runner, sort of. I'm not happy with the way it's running. I think the carburetor is losing it's adjustment since the limiter tabs have been tampered with and there are no springs on the needles so nothing to keep them from vibrating in or out. I can get it running great and then after a couple minutes it's all wacky again and the needles (particularly the L needle) seem to move on their own. Hard to tell since they are buried in there pretty good with these saws.
> 
> I also had to monkey with the high voltage lead for the ignition system as it wasn't carrying spark to the plug. Got that solved for now, I will most likely wind up replacing that lead in the future.
> 
> ...


----------



## DexterDay (Mar 27, 2013)

I can start mine without it.. I bought mine new. 

I dont do it on purpose. But I have, just to see how bad it was


----------



## MasterMech (Mar 27, 2013)

nate379 said:


> Can you start the saw without the decompression button?
> 
> There's no way I could on my 460. I tried it once and I had to pull on it so hard that I snapped the starter rope.


 
Both of these will pull over quite decently without the decomp button.  I don't even bother with it for a warm/hot re-start.

The elasto-start starter handles make a big difference.  Enough so that I have them on everything except my MS230, which is an EZ2Start model anyways.


----------



## MasterMech (Mar 27, 2013)

Jags said:


> I am thinking that those adjustment screw springs are a must.​


 
This carb isn't designed for those springs, so I'm going to get new limiter caps for it.  I wonder if blue loctite would keep it running for now?


----------



## nate379 (Mar 28, 2013)

I had that Elasto deal on my saw and it tore apart a few weeks before the rope broke. The rope was in good shape too. I much prefer it without, doesn't feel like I'm wasting half my pull by stretching it out.

Dunno if the previous owner did some work on my saw, pretty sure it's stock but it sits just under 200psi compression.  My brand new 290 was super easy to crank over in comparison.  Even with the decomp button pushed it's tougher.




MasterMech said:


> Both of these will pull over quite decently without the decomp button. I don't even bother with it for a warm/hot re-start.
> 
> The elasto-start starter handles make a big difference. Enough so that I have them on everything except my MS230, which is an EZ2Start model anyways.


----------



## MasterMech (Mar 28, 2013)

nate379 said:


> Dunno if the previous owner did some work on my saw, pretty sure it's stock but it sits just under 200psi compression.​


 
That's a ton more than stock.  A stock 460 in tip top shape should pull 155-160psi.  If there has been work done to yours, it's a good bet that the ignition timing may have been played with as well and that could make it rather unforgiving to start.


----------



## Jags (Mar 28, 2013)

MasterMech said:


> This carb isn't designed for those springs, so I'm going to get new limiter caps for it. I wonder if blue loctite would keep it running for now?


 

I also thought of the blue stuff. Only question - if you go back to "adjust" will it leave any residue that could cause problems.  Maybe if you could put it high enough on the treads - this wouldn't be an issue.


----------



## smokinj (Mar 28, 2013)

nate379 said:


> Can you start the saw without the decompression button?
> 
> There's no way I could on my 460. I tried it once and I had to pull on it so hard that I snapped the starter rope.


 
Seems a lot of people have done that once.


----------



## MasterMech (Mar 28, 2013)

The more I play with this thing, the more I think something is actually wrong. Once it heats up it really doesn't want to idle properly. Trying to get the engine to stay running under 3000 rpm is real tough. Thing is, I can't get it tore down fast enough to do a leak test with it "hot". I think I'm going to toss the Chinese crank seals and see what happens. The Stihl service manual for it says either there is an air leak (crank seals, case gasket, impulse line, etc...), or the muffler is leaking.   The crankcase pressure/vac test says the case is airtight so maybe I should seal up that muffler!


----------



## salecker (Mar 29, 2013)

Hi Master
 try preasuring it up in a bucket of water,fish tank works nice you can see everything.
 Thomas


----------



## MasterMech (Mar 29, 2013)

salecker said:


> Hi Master
> try preasuring it up in a bucket of water,fish tank works nice you can see everything.
> Thomas


 
There is NO pressure loss from a crankcase pressure test. (even after 2-3 minutes. Also holds vacuum just as well.)  I doubt dunking it will tell me anything I don't already know.  The issue seems to rear it's head when the saw is hot and as I stated before, there's just too much time involved in prepping the saw for a pressure test to get a reading while it's hot.  Going to be a little bit of trial and error from here I think.


----------



## Freeheat (Mar 29, 2013)

MasterMech said:


> There is NO pressure loss from a crankcase pressure test. (even after 2-3 minutes. Also holds vacuum just as well.) I doubt dunking it will tell me anything I don't already know. The issue seems to rear it's head when the saw is hot and as I stated before, there's just too much time involved in prepping the saw for a pressure test to get a reading while it's hot. Going to be a little bit of trial and error from here I think.


 
You know alot more than me but wont a vaccum leak make it run lean? If its only at temp I would think Ignition or someting along that line

JIM


----------



## mikefrommaine (Mar 29, 2013)

Since it's an aftermarket kit have you check the p&c for scoring?


----------



## MasterMech (Mar 29, 2013)

Freeheat said:


> You know alot more than me but wont a vaccum leak make it run lean? If its only at temp I would think Ignition or someting along that line
> 
> JIM


 
Ignition would most likely fail under load or at high speed, the saw runs WOT no problem.  It's getting it to idle that's the issue.  That says air leak or carburetor.  I could swap the carbs with the other saw but I'm 99% sure this carb is good.


----------



## MasterMech (Mar 29, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> Since it's an aftermarket kit have you check the p&c for scoring?


 Still looks good through the muffler and spark plug hole. Pulls awesome (160+ psi) compression.


----------



## lukem (Mar 29, 2013)

Do the RPM's drop quickly coming out of WOT?


----------



## Jags (Mar 29, 2013)

MasterMech said:


> That says air leak or carburetor.


 
Ding, ding, ding.


----------



## MasterMech (Mar 29, 2013)

lukem said:


> Do the RPM's drop quickly coming out of WOT?


I would say it's somewhat "normal" What happens it it will settle in to an idle, break up and die. Requires the throttle cracked to restart. When I get more time, I'm going to swap carbs just to put that one to bed.  I'm taking the "good" saw out to play tomorrow so I don't want to tear it apart just yet.


----------



## lukem (Mar 29, 2013)

MasterMech said:


> I would say it's somewhat "normal" What happens it it will settle in to an idle, break up and die. Requires the throttle cracked to restart. When I get more time, I'm going to swap carbs just to put that one to bed. I'm taking the "good" saw out to play tomorrow so I don't want to tear it apart just yet.


 
Sounds more "carby" than "air-leaky" to me.  Never dealt with it on a saw, but have on a couple 2-stroke dirtbikes.  Both had a leak at the jug gasket and would run and idle fine...but the RPMs would shoot to the moon and stay very high after WOT.  If it is dropping pretty normal but won't idle that doesn't scream air leak to me...but I'm not an expert and have been wrong before.


----------



## MasterMech (Mar 29, 2013)

lukem said:


> Sounds more "carby" than "air-leaky" to me. Never dealt with it on a saw, but have on a couple 2-stroke dirtbikes. Both had a leak at the jug gasket and would run and idle fine...but the RPMs would shoot to the moon and stay very high after WOT. If it is dropping pretty normal but won't idle that doesn't scream air leak to me...but I'm not an expert and have been wrong before.


The part that gets me is that it leak tests _perfectly_.  So if the carb swap reveals nothing, then I'm going to have to resort to replacing things one at a time I think.


----------



## Jags (Mar 29, 2013)

Wanna take a wager on carb or at least fuel related.


----------



## MasterMech (Mar 29, 2013)

Jags said:


> Wanna take a wager on carb or at least fuel related.


You are going to make me go out there and swap that puppy when I'm supposed to be sharpening chain for tomorrow aren't you?


----------



## Jags (Mar 29, 2013)

Nope - I can't make you do anything that you don't ALREADY WANT TO DO.


----------



## MasterMech (Mar 29, 2013)

Verdict is in, it's the carb. Hope I get a few more minutes to play with the sick carb tonight. Then I can take both 460's with me in the morning for some field action.

(I hear you laughing Jags..... )


----------



## MasterMech (Mar 29, 2013)

Had a little time to clean out that carb extra-thorough like.  Low speed passages were definitely restricted.  The short story is both saws are up and running and going out to play in the morning.


----------



## MasterMech (Mar 30, 2013)

My cutting buddy and I ran both 460's this morning and both saws ran flawlessly. The difference between the aftermarket unit and the OEM one is not immediately perceptible to me anyways. Both saws seem to have similar power (running 20" ES wide-nose bars with 33RSC72 chains on them, fresh filed) and vibration levels are tough to distinguish between. The OEM 460 is noticeably louder IMO, most likely due to the very un-restricted OEM dual-port muffler on there. We ran 2 tanks through each saw and called it a day.

Pictures of the aftermath will be posted in the Wood Shed.

Oh yeah, I picked up a saw-test log today too. I will probably video both 460's for comparison at some point. (hopefully soon)


----------



## Jags (Apr 1, 2013)

MasterMech said:


> (I hear you laughing Jags..... )


 
Just an old timers intuition.


----------



## Jags (Apr 2, 2013)

Did you get that log set up and do any test runs yet??


----------



## MasterMech (Apr 2, 2013)

Jags said:


> Did you get that log set up and do any test runs yet??


Uhhhh .......

Been busy with the holiday but it's on the "to do" list.  Soon....


----------

