# Bad News... Owner of Vermont Castings files for bankruptcy



## Vermontster (Apr 20, 2008)

Owner of stove maker Vermont Castings files for bankruptcy 

Published: Saturday, April 19, 2008

By The Associated Press 

RANDOLPH — The owner of Vermont Castings has filed for bankruptcy protection. 

CFM Corp. filed for reorganization under Chapter 11 of the bankruptcy code, which gives debtors a chance to reorganize, pay creditors and stay in business. 

“At this point in time, my whole operation is shut down,” said Vermont Castings general manager Dale Trombley, referring to the company’s Randolph foundry and a Bethel plant where wood stoves are enameled and assembled. “A lot of our people are on unemployment for a period of eight weeks.” 

The Bethel facility closed Monday, a week after the foundry. 

Trombley said the company will be building stoves again by June. 

The two-month layoff for 170 employees is a blow to the area’s economy, according to Trombley, who said the sluggish economy — particularly the housing market — was to blame.
The downturn in the housing market definitely has had a huge impact on our corporate sales, not just in Vermont, but I’m talking about our whole corporation,” he said. “That’s what the issue is. 

“Usually Vermont feels (recessions) last, but we’re feeling it right along with everyone else this time,” Trombley added. “And since Vermont Castings is an international supplier, we feel it quickly.”

Copied from:

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080419/NEWS/80419002


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## webbie (Apr 20, 2008)

Oh, we had it early from the dealer - but you are right that it was held back by the news media. There have been no stories at all - and it's been about 10 days or so since it was reported here.

There is one other thread in the Hearth Room and a long one in the Ash Can (although it may have been deleted)......

You missed some fun - we even had a "spinning" Elk avatar.

Here is the ash can post:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/17313/

over 4000 views on that one - I think we became the main source of news on the web for this issue!


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## tradergordo (Apr 23, 2008)

THis could be a fantastic opportunity (in my opinion) for ESW to pick over a carcass and maybe buy something valuable on the cheap.  They already do business with VC (foundary/casting in vermont).  Someone has to want to carry on the VC name I'm sure...


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## Heat Miser (Apr 23, 2008)

The next owner hopefully will do a few things:

- Completely eliminate all non-stove business lines. No more BBQ grills and the like. No more big-box store products where you're competing against Chinese slave labor on the price point.  VC should just be building heating stoves. Wood stoves and gas stoves. That's it. So many companies get into trouble by growing too big and getting into unfocused product lines. 

- Get on your hands and knees and beg each and every independent stove dealer in the US that used to carry your products for forgiveness for stabbing them in the back by trying to open up competing stores. Pledge to return to honest and direct business by rebuilding your destroyed network of dealers. Assure them that you're not going to have cheap products that cause problems for their customers any more. 

- Stop cutting corners in your products. Return to higher quality components that result in low-maintenance appliances. You are building cast iron stoves and not plate steel. You can't compete with the plate steel manufacturers on price so just acknowledge it and move on. People who want the look of cast iron are going to pay more for it so make it worth their money. Mercedes Benz is not threatened by people who want to drive Ford Escorts. They're a different market and you should stop trying to make everyone happy. 

- Hire a crack team of engineers and get your non-catalytic technology fixed. It's giving you a bad reputation on top of everything else. Pour as much money as you can into R&D;to take your stoves to the next level of efficiency and ease of use. 

Now I'm not in the stove industry. These are just the problems I've noticed as a (former) VC owner and someone who has perhaps spent too much time researching these issues. CFM management did a tremendous amount of damage to the VC name and product. Frankly, they deserve to go into bankruptcy. That's what happens when you're make mistakes in the free market.


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## stoveguy2esw (Apr 24, 2008)

Heat Miser said:
			
		

> The next owner hopefully will do a few things:
> 
> - Completely eliminate all non-stove business lines. No more BBQ grills and the like. No more big-box store products where you're competing against Chinese slave labor on the price point.  VC should just be building heating stoves. Wood stoves and gas stoves. That's it. So many companies get into trouble by growing too big and getting into unfocused product lines.



agreed, Vc shouldnt do grills, just stoves   (though we are currently kicking the "&#@&^% outta the chinese in big box stores and will likely be picking up the slack in Lowes because CFM wont be there, gonna be an interesting season.

- quote author="Heat Miser" date="1209002022"]Get on your hands and knees and beg each and every independent stove dealer in the US that used to carry your products for forgiveness for stabbing them in the back by trying to open up competing stores. Pledge to return to honest and direct business by rebuilding your destroyed network of dealers. Assure them that you're not going to have cheap products that cause problems for their customers any more. [/quote]
Vc should have stayed with the buisness plan they used to follow , heck they used to sponsor barbicues for customers at the dealer level, verry open neighborly company , damned shame they got ate up by a corporate disaster like they did.


- quote author="Heat Miser" date="1209002022"]Stop cutting corners in your products. Return to higher quality components that result in low-maintenance appliances. You are building cast iron stoves and not plate steel. You can't compete with the plate steel manufacturers on price so just acknowledge it and move on. People who want the look of cast iron are going to pay more for it so make it worth their money. Mercedes Benz is not threatened by people who want to drive Ford Escorts. They're a different market and you should stop trying to make everyone happy.[/quote] 

ive seen recent castings they did for us , they are SUPERIOR excellent work if the foundry doesnt stay open it'd be worth it to buy it just to get the castings , anyone who knows metal can tell they are a world class foundry.

- quote author="Heat Miser" date="1209002022"]Hire a crack team of engineers and get your non-catalytic technology fixed. It's giving you a bad reputation on top of everything else. Pour as much money as you can into R&D;to take your stoves to the next level of efficiency and ease of use. [/quote]

i agree they need to 'dumb up" their non-cats, they are too complicated 

quote author="Heat Miser" date="1209002022"]Now I'm not in the stove industry. These are just the problems I've noticed as a (former) VC owner and someone who has perhaps spent too much time researching these issues. CFM management did a tremendous amount of damage to the VC name and product. Frankly, they deserve to go into bankruptcy. That's what happens when you're make mistakes in the free market.[/quote]

Frankly i hope they come back , if for no other reason , they at one time were the class of the field in woodstoves , names like "Defiant" , "Vigilant","Aspen" ,"Encore","Resolute" strong respected names 

VC was done a disservice by CFM in my opinion if the old VC were to emerge from this mess the woodburning world would be better for it, but the old VC is the only version i'd like to see back.

not beatin on ya miser, on the contrary, you gave me a template to bounce my opinions off of, thanks.


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## Heat Miser (Apr 24, 2008)

stoveguy2esw said:
			
		

> Heat Miser said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



When I was more active in investing I learned to be very wary of companies going into businesses that aren't their core focus. If I owned a stock for instance and saw the company was branching out into something that wasn't their core business I would sell the stock almost immediately. It is usually the kiss of death. What usually happens is something like this:

a) The CEO gets some great idea about making more money going into a new line of business. The line of business may be only tangentially related to what the company actually does (like BBQ grills).

b) The board of directors thinks it's a great idea. Both they and the CEO dramatically underestimate the money and risk involved in the new venture.

c) The venture launches with much fanfare. 

d) The company soon realizes that perhaps the competitors in their new market aren't as dumb as they thought. Their new products, for whatever reason, have problems in the field or can't be produced at the originally thought price point without losing a bunch of money. 

e) Because of (d) above, the company either raises prices or cuts corners or does both. 

f) The new product begins to falter. Customer problems start showing up. Their tech and dealer support begins sucking up more and more of their resources. 

g) Marketing budgets begins to grow exponentially. The company suddenly realizes that they need to market to different areas in different ways and through different mediums for their new vs. old products. Advertising budgets explode and conflict erupts as the business units fight over limited dollars.

h) The new business venture isn't doing so well. Instead of recognizing their mistake early and leaving the market, the company decides to double their efforts (and expenses) and ensure the product succeeds.

i) The new product now gets more traction, but their older product lines are suffering as precious capital is being siphoned off trying to get the new idea off the ground. 

j) Both old and new business ventures begin to suffer. The CEO and Board of Directors are still is too stubborn to admit defeat in order to avoid looking bad to investors. They pour more money into their new business diversions. The old product line really begins to decline and their core revenue starts dwindling. Customers are leaving in droves. 

k) By the time the leaders realize what is going on the damage is irreversible. The company has lost so much money and their revenue streams have shrunk so much they get into financial trouble. 

l) The company files for bankruptcy protection.

So I'm speculating here obviously, but that's what I see happen to many good companies. There is an old saying: "Shoemaker, stick to your last!" Which basically means you should focus on what you know. New business ventures should be taken on with extreme caution and you need leadership that can react to the problems that show up in a non-religious way. They should also be smart enough to know when they made a mistake and protect their core business at all times. 

I think there are salvageable parts of VC. If I were to buy them out I'd shut down all non-stove related business units. Go back to making good stoves and stop messing around with all that other stuff they got into.


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## Choppedliver (Apr 25, 2008)

Heat Miser said:
			
		

> The next owner hopefully will do a few things:
> 
> - Completely eliminate all non-stove business lines. No more BBQ grills and the like. No more big-box store products where you're competing against Chinese slave labor on the price point.  VC should just be building heating stoves. Wood stoves and gas stoves. That's it. So many companies get into trouble by growing too big and getting into unfocused product lines.



As a VC Dealer, I'm going to have to disagree with you. We have made more profit and done less warranty work selling there grills in the last few years then there wood stoves. They have spent a great deal of time and money building up a great name in grills and it is now really starting to pay off.  As far as the Big box crap your in luck at the end of last week they sold off the "mass-merchant" division


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## Heat Miser (Apr 25, 2008)

Choppedliver said:
			
		

> As a VC Dealer, I'm going to have to disagree with you. We have made more profit and done less warranty work selling there grills in the last few years then there wood stoves. They have spent a great deal of time and money building up a great name in grills and it is now really starting to pay off.  As far as the Big box crap your in luck at the end of last week they sold off the "mass-merchant" division



That's the problem. I suspect they spent too much money trying to launch their new business unit and let their existing core business (wood stoves) go down the toilet. I think VC made a huge strategic error going up against established grill makers like Weber, etc. at the expense of their wood and gas stove units. I understand it may be more profitable for you, but it certainly wasn't a profitable move for VC! 

Same thing happened to Cannondale bikes many years ago. They were a market leader bike manufacturer and thought they should make dirtbikes. Dirt bikes are just bikes with motors right? So Cannondale thought they should be able to do dirt bikes just as VC probably thought that making grills would be kind of like making stoves. 

Cannondale decided to setup a huge new expensive dirtbike division to compete against Yamaha/Honda/Kawasaki/Etc. It was a tremendous waste of resources. Their bike quality nose dived in the process as they began cutting corners. They soon went bankrupt. The creditors bought out the company, shut down the dirt bike division, and just started focusing on making great bikes again. The company survived and hopefully learned their lesson.

But again this is all speculation. It would be interesting to find out what really happened to VC to cause such a fall from grace. I suspect it was a hodgepodge of bad decisions.


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## tradergordo (Apr 25, 2008)

So Craig, when are you going to get an interview with a key insider?  Time for a new podcast!


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## Heat Miser (Apr 25, 2008)

tradergordo said:
			
		

> So Craig, when are you going to get an interview with a key insider?  Time for a new podcast!



That would be a good interview. Need to find some senior employees to spill some dirt. 

Honestly, I think we should all get together and buy out VC. The members of this forum would do a better job running that company than CFM ever did.


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## Choppedliver (Apr 25, 2008)

Although there is no official word on who is buying them but, most of the "insiders" I have talked to say the deals done and the investment group that purchased Martin Hearth & Heating, Monessen and Lexington Forge is going to purchase them. we should know on May 8th or 9th.


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## Shane (Apr 25, 2008)

I had a feeling someone would pick them up.  Now we just wait and see what they do with it.


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## BrotherBart (Apr 25, 2008)

Choppedliver said:
			
		

> Although there is no official word on who is buying them but, most of the "insiders" I have talked to say the deals done and the investment group that purchased Martin Hearth & Heating, Monessen and Lexington Forge is going to purchase them. we should know on May 8th or 9th.



That is virtually impossible. I deal with the bankruptcy courts a good bit and it will take much longer than that just to get legal notification to the creditors and establish a creditors committee. A reorganization plan will have to be developed and approved by the creditors and the court. And in this case it involves two courts. In two countries.

There isn't going to be anybody bought or sold by May 9th. In only one case have I seen it done in anywhere near that short a time and that was an airline and it went straight to Chapter 7 liquidation. And that took four months just for the auctioneer to develop a list of assets so they could print the auction catalog.


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## webbie (Apr 25, 2008)

BB, might be some way they can get things going because of Canada? That is where the actual papers were filed. It might be that the creditors are being made whole or nearly whole, but that the bankruptcy was filed as an "easy" way out because they had no money for ongoing operations?? If this were the case, I doubt creditors or courts would stand in the way.

The people who are ending up screwed are the employees as well as the city of Huntington and other entities that gave them millions in tax breaks. Thanks to our fair system here, those are down the tubes....the employees will get unemployment, I guess. But health care is gonna be tough.

Monesson was rumored to be the buyer from the start. Interesting....the biggest producer of vent-free systems sold mostly through mass merchants! And owned by another big investment group? I know a top R&D;person there, and he is A-1 dude.....so I know they have good help, but this would not be your mommas VC.

As far as Podcasts, recent management are not likely to kiss and tell. It's part of the corporate code of silence if you want another job in the future. But I think I am going to try to do one with the last "good" CEO, who then was canned when they sold to CFM. He has been watching the whole thing, so may have a unique perspective. Hey, if anyone knows anyone more recent who wants to talk, let me at 'em!


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## begreen (Apr 25, 2008)

The VC unit has been a strong operation. Here's an article from the Randolph Herald:

"Rumors have surfaced that a buyer may be interested in purchasing CFM, Olson acknowledged, but predicting what might happen would be "pure speculation," Olson said.

He confirmed the assertions of managers here that the Vermont Castings manufacturing plant, and the brand itself, are a successful segment of CFM.

"If I were to speculate on the relative values of the pieces of the company, Vermont Castings would be right up there on the top," he said."

http://www.rherald.com/News/2008/0417/Front_page/f03.html


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## moondoggy (Apr 25, 2008)

"has been hit with a collapse of demand within the stove market, he said."

is this true? 
I see more stove trucks in driveways, new liner installs, and know more people that got stoves this year then you'd think.
being the way OIL is, i thought stove sales were still on the rise... even though new homes sales are down.

Is the 'collapse' statement correct?

by the way.. I got my other shelf last week, its been a long time on order probably over 6 wks, but it shipped from one of the factories.


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## BrotherBart (Apr 25, 2008)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> He confirmed the assertions of managers here that the Vermont Castings manufacturing plant, and the brand itself, are a successful segment of CFM.



If so they why the shutdowns in Vermont? If CFM was hungry for operating cash to pay the bills they damn sure wouldn't idle a productive, profitable operation. That was not making ZC fireplaces for builders. In a year where every dealer with a tongue was saying stove sales were up 30%.

Something ain't passing the smell test here.


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## begreen (Apr 25, 2008)

Yeah, it would be nice to know the complete picture. The idle foundry might have to do with bad contract negotiations. Did CFM also double their casting prices to prop up other sagging divisions?


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## Corie (Apr 25, 2008)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Did CFM also double their casting prices to prop up other sagging divisions?



No.


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## david Lee (Apr 26, 2008)

In 1999, when Lennox acquired Superior and Marco fireplaces it was called “Super-Mar-Nox” by some.  If Monessen – Martin purchased CFM, would it be named “3M” or” M3 (as in M to the third power)?


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## stoveguy2esw (Apr 26, 2008)

VC is viable , especially with the foundry capacity they have , the rest of the conglomeration is not worth investment. even the CFM plant in huntington (which produced very decent products for their market) would be a risk as the clients they served have already moved to a different supplier.

the right guy, with the right amount of money...  Vc "could" be a gem but it would take some serious rolling up of the sleeves to pull it off.


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## R&D Guy (Apr 26, 2008)

Hmm I won't hold my breath for the 9th. The 9th will come and go as every other Friday does, and that dealer will have to chalk up the info they received from their Rep/Insider as another rumor of great things to come. Takes more time to close a simple home sale than has been allotted in this May 9th time frame, but then again as I said in the other thread, VC has been on the market longer than advertised.  Either way this will not be a quick fix and even after a hopeful buy-out the new owner, or owners depending on how it is split up, has a lot of bailing to do before getting that ship off the rocks.

My $0.02


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## webbie (Apr 26, 2008)

To answer the "demand" question, things are slack with most manufacturers....probably worse with VC than many for numerous reasons. The foundry has incredible capacity, so a "normal" amount of stoves is not nearly enough to keep the place busy. This is complete guesswork, but it might be capable of making 60-80K stoves per year.....but 20 to 30K is a good business. But at the lower number, the foundry would have to be at lower capacity and employment and perhaps seasonal layoffs. 

Also, a LOT of capital is required because these companies tend to finance the dealers in the off-season. 

It's a tough business, any way you look at it - and, IMHO, would be handled better by "true believers" as opposed to folks only in it for the return of $$. From that perspective, heck, why get your hands dirty?


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## moondoggy (Apr 28, 2008)

thanks, man this economy/state of the country stinks.
we need to turn things around.
you now what the guy in the cube next to me it bitching about......
he read the lable on "America's Choice Apple juice"   (AC is the generic brand for supermarket Waldbaums)......
Made from Concentrate from China.
WTF????  we dont have apples in the USA anymore?


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## R&D Guy (Apr 29, 2008)

moondoggy said:
			
		

> thanks, man this economy/state of the country stinks.
> we need to turn things around.
> you now what the guy in the cube next to me it bitching about......
> he read the lable on "America's Choice Apple juice"   (AC is the generic brand for supermarket Waldbaums)......
> ...



Agreed, there's also all types of new fruit and food products coming out of India now, and I'm sure every 3rd world is going to start growing corn.


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## webbie (Apr 29, 2008)

"Americas Choice".......sad........

I guess that is what happens when products labeled Vermont Castings are made in China too! Not that I am a protectionist - far from it! But you don't call it Vermont Castings when you do that! Nor Americas choice.......

People in China need to eat also. In fact, they are probably more needy of nutrition than your average American. The problem seems to be the lack of any national trade policies in the USA - we have capitulated to a government by the corporations and for the corporations, and that has taken us to the point of placing the wealth and decisions in the hands of about 1/1000 of one percent of the population. I listened to an interesting podcast yesterday, from the author of a new book "Rise of the Superclass" and he details how there are about 6600 people in the world who have virtually TOTAL control over the 600 million other wealthiest people. 600 million being 10% of the worlds population (including you and I) who live at a very high standard of living. 

He details all the problems we hear about, such as CEO pay now being 200x the average worker as opposed to being 20X as it was 30-40 years ago. He also dispels the myths that we need to pay people that much to get performance, noting that NEVER in the history of the world has it taken that kind of reward to make people take chances or work hard. 

But, all in all, it seems that "we" have bought it hook, line and sinker. We sit by and allow the passage of new laws making the tax burden LOWER for hedge fund managers making hundreds of millions a year! Why we put up with this is beyond me - but some people speculate that all the poor people who favor giving advantages to the superclass think that just maybe THEY will be there someday.....fat chance! 

And today we hear again about 14 BILLION in profits for the major oil companies in this 3 month period alone. The transfer of wealth from the middle class to the very wealthiest is dizzying. But the oil companies are taking out full page ads saying that when they make money, WE ALL make money, because after all - many of us have some oil companies in our mutual funds.


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## slindo (May 2, 2008)

For another view of what happened, check out this. It's a bit of a rant, but interesting:

http://www.epinions.com/content_5195079812


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## webbie (May 2, 2008)

Sounds pretty accurate.

Seems to cover the type of "leader" that Colin was.....somewhat shameless. No one ever came to me and said good things about him, more like they feared him (his employees and underlings).

I'm sure he has a lot more than that 10 million, having probably sold a lot of shares in-between.


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## TruePatriot (May 3, 2008)

Great discussion, and good link to "The Gasman's" article.

As the Bush economy "unsurges," I never thought I'd see late-breaking, cutting-edge financial/managment analysis here, on www.hearth.com, but I think I just did--kudos to all posters.  Talk about a "full service" website!   

Well done.  Hopefully, a knowledgeable "deep pockets" player will step up, and salvage the best of VC.


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## webbie (May 3, 2008)

Patriot, here you can get political advice, spiritual advice, DIY advice as well as breaking news. In the case of VC, you heard the rumors here FIRST.....perhaps a month or more before the actual news hit. Then you heard the news about 10 days before it showed up in the VT papers! We had a surge of visitors as folks googled CFR Bankruptcy - we were the only site to be found!

Don't you love the internet?


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## moondoggy (May 3, 2008)

holy crap that was a good read.
had no idea it was even close to that.. and always wondered why the Teachers were involved.

worst part is, I feel like this is whats going on around my company, and its only a matter of time. we arent public or anything, but things are really
getting strange and anyone who knew what they were doing has been canned.


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## TruePatriot (May 4, 2008)

> Patriot, here you can get political advice, spiritual advice, DIY advice as well as breaking news. In the case of VC, you heard the rumors here FIRST.....perhaps a month or more before the actual news hit. Then you heard the news about 10 days before it showed up in the VT papers! We had a surge of visitors as folks googled CFR Bankruptcy - we were the only site to be found!
> 
> Don’t you love the internet?



Craig,

How right you are...I guess I should have figured this site would be a "node" for a VC-type story, even including financial analysis. Congrats on what was surely thousands of unique, new "hits"! 

And yes, I _do _love the internet--I just hope the malevolent, "Corporatocracy" business interests are not successful in their attempts to make the internet "pay as you go," unfree or "pay MORE for high speed".  Since the real news is rarely found in the MSM (mainstream media) or, as it is now becoming known, as the "Corporate Media," I hope "they" don't decide to turn the "internets" off, someday, you know?

I like these sources, for news:

www.rawstory.com
www.huffingtonpost.com
www.truthout.org

Moondoggy:


> worst part is, I feel like this is whats going on around my company, and its only a matter of time. we arent public or anything, but things are really
> getting strange and anyone who knew what they were doing has been canned.




--I'm sorry to hear about the gathering storm at your job.  Unfortunately, I've seen that process up close, where knowledgeable peeps get "canned" or otherwise "incentivized" to quit--I know, because I was one of them.  I told my employer not to merge with another company and they ignored me (admittedly, it was waaay above my pay grade, but as our customers did not want us to merge, either, one would have to be blind or BRIBED not to see it was a DUMB idea).  P.S.: 7 years later, they've "unmerged" themselves.  The purchase price was $39 BILLION--7 years later, they sold their purchase for _*one-fifth *_of what they paid.  But insiders put the _actual _losses at $100 BILLION, (with a "B") for my former employer.

Yet the architects of that HORRENDOUS BLUNDER still have jobs--high-paying jobs....

I could have saved them $100 BILLION--but hey, who listens to the guy who answers the phone, and "just" gives technical advice, and has product knowledge?

And like you said--the knowledgable are gone, yet I hear many of the lackeys and "yes-men" (and women) managed to maintain in their mediocrity.

Do you suppose that's only an American business practice, to condone bad judgement (particularly where "cronyism" is in play) and allow such folks to "fail upward"?  

And while America's "last century" fossil-fuel-based energy policies break the bank, forward-thinking Spain and Germany lead the world in installed windpower, the U.S. greenback continues to tank, Iran decides to no longer trade in U.S. dollars, for oil, *VC bites the dust, *large retail chains close thousands of outlets and...where does it end?

Wait!  Don't answer that.  I'm afraid Depression 2.0 is going to become known as "The _Greater _Depression...."

Moondoggy--start practicing mediocrity in the mirror...it may save you.  Nobody in Congress seems to get fired or "recalled."

*Speaking of "mediocrity"--just last week, House Speaker Nancy ("off the table") Pelosi said that nationally, gasoline was only $2.65/gal.  WTF? * It's at least $3.65 in my world!  *She is so out of touch,* it reminds me of back in the '80's, when H.W. Bush didn't know what the UPC bar code scanners in grocery stores were!  (Because he never had to pay for his own groceries, obviously.)  And House Rep. John Conyers _still _doesn't know what NSPD-51 is (read about it here: http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55824 And lest someone dismiss that 'lil bit 'o MARTIAL LAW as "moonbat liberal nonsense," you will note that, in Jerome Corsi's bio, at the bottom of the page, he authored the book that "swiftboated" John Kerry, i.e.,  "Unfit for Command: Swift Boat Veterans Speak Out Against John Kerry."  It seems Corsi is now Dr. Frankenstein-like, and fears his own creation--Bush--, no?  But I digress....)

So, Conyers is the HEAD of the JUDICIARY COMMITTEE, but he doesn't know that there is *a martial law statute on the books that DESTROYS OUR THREE BRANCH, "BALANCE OF POWERS" SYSTEM OF GOV'T., and places the Executive Branch in control of the Legislative and Judicial branches,* based solely on the whim of our "prez-nit," the self-described "Decider," who can decide that something rises to the level of a "catastrophic emergency" and--'nuff said!  No more Constitutional-based, "balance of powers" representative gov't.  And Conyers knows nothing of this--I heard him interviewed and called his office, Friday.  ZZzzzzz....

But, in fairness to Conyers, NSPD-51 has only been on the books for...ONE YEAR!  (It was "edicted" by "The Decider" on May 9th--of 200*7*.)

What, you hadn't heard?  See what I mean about the "news" media being absent?

And actually, "mediocrity" is too high a degree of praise for Pelosi--"dereliction of duty" is better.  *Where are the renewable energy development incentives Congress promised us?*  Aren't they set to completely expire in 11/08, while we CONTINUE TO GIVE TAX BREAKS TO THE OIL COMPANIES?  WTF?

Wouldn't you agree that, since at $6,000, say, on avg., (if you don't DIY, or add in a splitter, saw, etc...) wood heat would be an excellent "entry level" green technology for the average homeowner?  That's way less than the typical $12,000., grid-tied solar install (and that's using incentives to get down from the $30,000. avg. solar-retail price--incentives, again, that expire this year!)

How about tax credits for wood burners, Pelosi?  _Right_....

Seriously, moodoggy, and all of the rest of us--good luck.


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## RedRanger (May 4, 2008)

Man--why does this discussion just keep on going political?  Just build something that people can depend on , and makes them feel  secure.  Big mistake imo was letting cfm buiild stoves and inserts with only 3/16 steel.  big mistake.  sure as hell doesn`t give me any confidence in the product.

eg:  I bought one with 5/16 steel on top and 1/4 on the sides--and on this thread I am not going to blow the horn for what I bought, just damn glad I did.  and for only a lousy $1500,   when it comes to fire, people want quality, thats it period, and VC used to do that.  And if they ain`t willing to continue to do that, then this is what happens..  period!!


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## webbie (May 5, 2008)

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/File:cfm-monitors.pdf/

is a link to the first Monitors report from the Court in Canada, RE:CFM

You legal eagles can read it, but it appears they are moving fast to try and find buyers for the pieces, because they know the season is coming soon and that the company loses even more value if they do not get it together soon. It only mentions one bid - for a part of the "Mass" business (big box) to the GHP Group, a maker of glass doors which I have never heard of.


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## BrotherBart (May 5, 2008)

The "Mass business" represents the portable kero/propane heater inventory and the electric fireplace inventory. A pittance in the grand scale of things. Only around five million in inventory value. GHP is gonna get the electric fireplaces and Mr. Heater the portable heaters.


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## begreen (May 5, 2008)

Here's a link to GHP. Note on the bottom of the site they say "BBQ grills coming soon"

"At GHP Group, we are committed to designing and manufacturing quality products that enhance the home environment.
Our fireplace and heating products promote energy efficiency in the home using the latest design trends in home furnishings. "

http://www.ghpgroupinc.com/index.htm


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## redhat (May 5, 2008)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/File:cfm-monitors.pdf/
> 
> is a link to the first Monitors report from the Court in Canada, RE:CFM
> 
> You legal eagles can read it, but it appears they are moving fast to try and find buyers for the pieces, because they know the season is coming soon and that the company loses even more value if they do not get it together soon. It only mentions one bid - for a part of the "Mass" business (big box) to the GHP Group, a maker of glass doors which I have never heard of.




Here's a link to the second report dated May 2nd:


CFM Monitor's Second Report


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## webbie (May 5, 2008)

Is it telling that they do not mention the Vermont business? In other words, they mention no bids or negotiations - and you would think they would have to if such were ongoing.


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## redhat (May 5, 2008)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Is it telling that they do not mention the Vermont business? In other words, they mention no bids or negotiations - and you would think they would have to if such were ongoing.



I completely agree, if there were ongoing negotiations or bids for VC it would be documented.  The lack of activity is rather troubling,  perhaps there are no parties interested in VC?  I have more than a passing interest in Vermont Casting's future, back on Feb 20th  (prior to the  plant shutdown and CFM filing chapter 11)  I placed an order with my local dealer for a Cat Encore 2550.   With VC's production at a standstill the past few months my dealer has been unable to fill my order and it's now beginning to look like I may never take delivery.


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## slindo (May 9, 2008)

Interestingly enough I have now spoken with two large stove shops that carry VC along with other brands, who tell me that VC stoves continue to sell well, and that they have noticed no fallout from the bankruptcy. They also both made little of the bankruptcy, assuring me that VC would quickly find a buyer and be better off for shedding the rest of the CFM empire.  Did make me wonder how much they were telling those customers!

Though come to think of it one of them was the same shop where a month or so ago I was assured that rumors of bankruptcy were false, since "the teachers have a huge amount of money, and are not going to let their investment go bad".


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## MiamiBeach (May 11, 2008)

Well, count me as one of those customers no one was saying much to!!  JUST had a Vermont Castings gas fireplace (ExtremeView) installed in a small house in Vermont.  Not an inexpensive little puppy by the time I added various upgrades. Unbelievable.  I literally have not even seen it on yet - the propane hadn't been hooked up when I was there a couple of weeks ago.  Grrrr.  So what happens now if it's not right or something goes wrong?


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## webbie (May 11, 2008)

Builder in a condo I was looking at was installing Majestic Fireplace in them. He didn't know they were kaput.

Was driving through VT yesterday and it was all over NPR in VT. They mentioned 150 out of work in the VC plants there. 

But it never did hit the mainstream, and it is obviously not in the interest of dealers to tell their customers since they have inventory, floor models, etc.

I do guess that it will be taken over and go on, but that is pure speculation. If anyone really knew anything, it would be in that report or in the rumor mill. 

Miami, I'm sure you will get backup from the dealer and installer - the brands is almost 100% to go on in some form or fashion.


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## MiamiBeach (May 11, 2008)

Ta-daa!


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## seaken (May 11, 2008)

MiamiBeach said:
			
		

> Well, count me as one of those customers no one was saying much to!!  JUST had a Vermont Castings gas fireplace (ExtremeView) installed in a small house in Vermont.  Not an inexpensive little puppy by the time I added various upgrades. Unbelievable.  I literally have not even seen it on yet - the propane hadn't been hooked up when I was there a couple of weeks ago.  Grrrr.  So what happens now if it's not right or something goes wrong?



Well, I didn't find out about it until last week. I wouldn't intentionally hide such news from my customers. I just hadn't been keeping up with hearth.com! Anyway, most of us dealers have no intention of leaving our customers without answers and support. As soon as we know how it all shakes out we'll let everyone know what they can expect.

Personally, I think there is little chance that the VC and Majestic parts will be abandoned. We'll continue to service all our VC and Majestic customers even if we no longer get our replacement parts from "VC" as we knew it.

Sean

P.S. Kurt Rumens (Travis Industries president) told an amusing story last weekend about his encounter with the former CFM CEO. He predicted in that conversation, over ten years ago, that before it was over he (Kurt) would be offering to buy VC for 10 cents on the dollar. The CFM guy was trying to make a play for Travis at the time. But Kurt saw the hand-writing on the wall. After he left us in Buffalo he was on his way to Randolf Vermont to make his bid.


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## MiamiBeach (May 11, 2008)

Thanks for qualming my fears.  I suspect the dealers that are here on Hearth.com are a uniquely good bunch.


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## webbie (May 11, 2008)

Ah, a new tidbit....that's a juicy one!

Travis industries buys VC........along with Kurt, I could have made that guess. The stories about the ex-CEO were quite depraved. In the end, good intentions, hard work and clean living win the day (well, sometimes!).

A lot of people are unaware that Travis Industries has other holdings other than the stoves - not sure exactly what at any given time, but at various times included aluminum and brass foundries, etc.


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## begreen (May 11, 2008)

MacCrae's has this listing for Travis:

Manufactures heating equipment; gas, wood, pellet stoves & built-in fireplaces Heater elements, Induction heaters, Doors for heating equipment, Boiler or heater ignitor, Burners, Plate heat exchanger, Shell and tube heat exchanger, Radiators, Heat exchangers, Fireplaces, Furnaces, Heat pumps, Solar heating units, Heating stoves, Circulation heaters, Coil duct heaters
http://www.macraesbluebook.com/search/company.cfm?company=456647

heatpumps, solar heaters?

Here's a nice bit of history:
http://www.djc.com/const/cis.html?id=11117049

Looks like Rumens was an early rocker. Did you and Kurt ever jam together?


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## shorewood (May 23, 2008)

Thanks for the information and links to the Monitors report.  Worth looking at since VC has a good group in place, good area and good brands.


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## fishbabysquirl (Jun 29, 2008)

My parents have worked at CFM Majestic in Huntington since the mid 80's and the way it is starting to sound, they are pretty much screwed.  It would have been great if the jobs went overseas because then they could at least be able to go to school for something.  Pretty much right now, they are hoping the gates will not be locked when they go to work monday morning.


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