# Total newbie with Portage & Main outdoor wood heater question



## Mcbride (Nov 24, 2010)

I am not terribly up on new stuff, and just grew up with old fashioned wood stove heaters.
To solve the wood mess in the house problems, and to keep all smoke outside, etc. am thinking of going to a Portage and Main outdoor heater to warm water lines in the floor of a new house we plan to build in the spring.
Is this a good route to go.
The house will be about a 3500 square foot shop at ground level, for me to work in, and put a house for our family to live in on top of that.
It will total about 7,000 feet, and i like over height ceilings in both.
Its in a colder climate, a town called McBride BC, in Canada.
Lots of wood, so thats easy.
Its on a small acreage.

Is this a reliable, effecient way to go?

Thanks


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## KarlK (Nov 24, 2010)

I have a portage & main optimizer and very happy with it so far. I got it for the same reasons your thinking.


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## Mcbride (Nov 24, 2010)

Thanks.

I am looking at the ML 36.

How far from your house is it?

Does it smoke much.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Nov 24, 2010)

Mcbride said:
			
		

> I am not terribly up on new stuff, and just grew up with old fashioned wood stove heaters.
> To solve the wood mess in the house problems, and to keep all smoke outside, etc. am thinking of going to a Portage and Main outdoor heater to warm water lines in the floor of a new house we plan to build in the spring.
> Is this a good route to go.
> The house will be about a 3500 square foot shop at ground level, for me to work in, and put a house for our family to live in on top of that.
> ...


 Buy the Optimizer! The gasser is the way to go, Randy


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## Floydian (Nov 25, 2010)

If your set on an outdoor unit then the optimizer or econoburn seem the best choices IMO. I would like to know the performance R-value of any outdoor wood boiler BEFORE dropping a bunch of $. I say this because stand by heat loss could mean burning a substantial amount of wood just to heat the great outdoors. Also don't go cheap on the underground lines as this could be another area of BIG heat loss. A shop in the basement could be a great place for an indoor gassification boiler+thermal storage. This way you can take advantage of all the heat loss that is going to happen anyway. When efficiency is the goal I think it is very important to consider this aspect.

Good luck,
Noah


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## Mcbride (Nov 25, 2010)

Floydian said:
			
		

> If your set on an outdoor unit then the optimizer or econoburn seem the best choices IMO. I would like to know the performance R-value of any outdoor wood boiler BEFORE dropping a bunch of $. I say this because stand by heat loss could mean burning a substantial amount of wood just to heat the great outdoors. Also don't go cheap on the underground lines as this could be another area of BIG heat loss. A shop in the basement could be a great place for an indoor gassification boiler+thermal storage. This way you can take advantage of all the heat loss that is going to happen anyway. When efficiency is the goal I think it is very important to consider this aspect.
> 
> Good luck,
> Noah



Thanks , its good to learn.

I admit to not knowing much on the subect.


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## KarlK (Nov 25, 2010)

Mine is about 50ft from the house. I used logstor underground pipe.


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## kabbott (Nov 25, 2010)

Floydian said:
			
		

> If your set on an outdoor unit then the optimizer or econoburn seem the best choices IMO. I would like to know the performance R-value of any outdoor wood boiler BEFORE dropping a bunch of $. I say this because stand by heat loss could mean burning a substantial amount of wood just to heat the great outdoors. Also don't go cheap on the underground lines as this could be another area of BIG heat loss. A shop in the basement could be a great place for an indoor gassification boiler+thermal storage. This way you can take advantage of all the heat loss that is going to happen anyway. When efficiency is the goal I think it is very important to consider this aspect.
> 
> Good luck,
> Noah



+1
I think you should at least consider putting it in the building... The wood mess may be unavoidable but there is no need to worry about smoke if you 
do your homework before you purchase the boiler.

With a new structure you could plan a small room with direct outside access to cut down on mess in the building but heat loss would still be 
inside the building envelope. Not to mention much more "fun" to load boiler inside when it's REALLY cold out. No heat loss in long underground 
piping runs either.

Look at some of the boilers with induced draft(as opposed to forced)... One of my wife's requirements was NO SMOKE, My boiler does not let any smoke
into the living area... very happy with that.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Nov 25, 2010)

kabbott said:
			
		

> With a new structure you could plan a small room with direct outside access to cut down on mess in the building but heat loss would still be
> inside the building envelope. Not to mention much more "fun" to load boiler inside when it's REALLY cold out. No heat loss in long underground
> piping runs either.



I am happy with radient, but if your shop has big OH doors, You will want some sore of W2A space heating for those times when the door gets opened.

I Couldn't agree more with Kab, above. If I were building from scratch I would enclose the boiler and, say, a month's worth of fuel in a masonry room. Put the storage tank right in the middle of the shop. Standby losses will be mostly from the tank, not the boiler. Make the 'boiler room' one story, no LA above it. OH door on the 'boiler room for driving pallets of FW in. Fire door between shop and 'boiler room'.

How do you say "Suhhweeet" in BC? or is it just "Whistler"?


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## bigburner (Nov 25, 2010)

I don't worry about losses as some do here. mine is is in a separate building. I don't store wood in there either, its on the ground out side, just the boiler & tank inside. I enjoy walking out there and it's got to be 500 ft [several buildings daisy chained together] It's always warm. and allows me to admire my work & check on status. got no mess in any of the buildings that I'm heating. all the original heating appliance are set to come on automatically if the water temp falls below the set point. here it's 200 + dollars a year for insurance to have a wood burner indoors. I don't insure where the boiler is.


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## Mcbride (Nov 25, 2010)

bigburner said:
			
		

> I don't worry about losses as some do here. mine is is in a separate building. I don't store wood in there either, its on the ground out side, just the boiler & tank inside. I enjoy walking out there and it's got to be 500 ft [several buildings daisy chained together] It's always warm. and allows me to admire my work & check on status. got no mess in any of the buildings that I'm heating. all the original heating appliance are set to come on automatically if the water temp falls below the set point. here it's 200 + dollars a year for insurance to have a wood burner indoors. I don't insure where the boiler is.



Thanks.

Here it would lower my insure if its outside, and more than 50 feet from the house.
Also can heat my sidewalk and stairs if i want with a seperate loop to melt them clear of snow and ice.
Heat my domestic hotwater to, saving me electricity.
Where we are building has no natural gas or such, and electric gets pricey, but the wood i get is nearly free.
I can get the left over wood from ym friends logging company, same as he and his crew heats with.
As its an acreage, he can drive a logging truck onto my property, and trip the stakes to dump it.
Any logs that don't roll free, and trap the stakes, I can tie onto with a chain and pull off with my truck or backhoe.
should from the sounds of it need to just walk out at most 100 feet to the boiler, or however far from the house we put it, and stoke it up with wood about every 12 hours. just fill it and close the door, and hope the power does not go out, as it needs electricity for the fans and pump.
Will figure out how to wire a plug to it, so i can use my little honda generator to provide power, when the electricity goes out due to say a bad storm.
They say with the insulated pipes underground, they lose about 1 degree in temp every 200 feet, so even if 100 feet away, thats just 1/2 a degree heat loss due to lines to the house.

In really cold weather, say minus 30 or minus 40, if the shop doors get opened and closed lots, with heated concrete floors, at least they are still warm, even if the air gets coled off.
And i plan to have electric baseboard back up heat in the shop, and house as well, for when we go away, or may need supplemental heat.
I had the blaze king stoves in my last house, 1 up, and 1 down, great heaters, but not as nice as warmed floors IMO, and very messy carrying in wood, and ashes out.
Plus it sucks carrying in wood from the wood shed.
I can put the wood shed this time 6 feet from the front of the outdoor unit, so its 2 steps with the wood.
I just want to buy the best quality unit made, so its hopefully trouble free for many years.

So if the Portage and Main is top quality, then i will be happy.
That ML 36 looks pretty nice.

http://www.portageandmainboilers.com/wood.html

But wonder if I should opt for the larger ML 42 instead.


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## PortageandMain#1 (Dec 3, 2010)

Mcbride said:
			
		

> bigburner said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




With the sq footage you are planning to heat i would probably recommend the P&M Ml36 or Ml42. or you may want to opt for the New Optimizer 350 gasifier that will be available in a couple of weeks.
Anyway you look at it, Portage is the way to go and if you call the toll free number any questions you have should get answered for you. If you would like feel free to send me a  private message and i would be more than happy to discuss this further with you!


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## Floydian (Dec 3, 2010)

Any way you look at it..... Sizing a boiler on total sq footage rather than a comprehensive room by room heat loss calculation is really just a guess. Poor system design IMO.

Noah


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## AOTO (Dec 3, 2010)

I recommend you do your own research on OWB's.  

Everyone has their opinion on the matter, particularly here since we're all passionate about heating with wood. I'm running a (supposed 320,000 BTU) Sequoyah E3400 and it's very simple to run.  I am very pleased with it. There are 3 moving parts and one solenoid. All of these parts can be found on McMasters & Carr website. It is designed to be outside, hence OWB (outside wood boiler).  I don't drag any wood into the house. I store the wood and all the pests that come with it in one area under a cover I made. It's nice to know the "fire" is outside and I don't have to worry about it at all.
The Sequoyah doesn't have a bypass door so it's easy to smell a bit like smoke after you are done loading or cleaning it. 

My last application in using my OWB was a disaster as I used the wrong piping underground. I posted all of that earlier in this forum - but having said that, I was able to comfortably heat a 2850  SQFT house (baseboard hot water and domestic hot water) and a 2784 SQFT barn (radiant floor) with my machine, no problem.  

Pros - No brushes are needed to clean this machine, no extra smoke stack(s), fewer moving parts  - there are more things too..
Cons - You can smell like a fire yourself, machine is effn' heavy to move.

I like my system and it's not real complicated - you do your own research on it and make a decision.  You need to ask everybody here what "they" think and what they have experienced.  My last problem was with pipe and that has been remedied.  Never skimp on the underground pipe.

http://www.wdheat.com/Gasification E3400.htm   The boiler
http://www.urecon.com/documents/pdfs/brochures/Urecon_PEX-Flex.pdf  The pipe. 

Arm yourself w/knowledge and you'll make the best decision.   Good luck.


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## Mcbride (Dec 3, 2010)

Thanks again to each and everyone of you for the input.
I am going with a Portage and Main....likely an ML 42.
And will also use their pipe and manifolds, as well as domestic hot water arm, and the piece that will help heat the hot tub in winter to.


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## Piston (Aug 11, 2011)

Mcbride said:
			
		

> Thanks again to each and everyone of you for the input.
> I am going with a Portage and Main....likely an ML 42.
> And will also use their pipe and manifolds, as well as domestic hot water arm, and the piece that will help heat the hot tub in winter to.




Did you end up purchasing the P&M unit?  If so which one?  

Are you happy with it?  Can you tell us some more about your experience with it?  I am building a house next spring and looking into OWB and the P&M unit is on the top of my list.

If you did buy the unit, it would be great if you could type up a short review of your experience with it.


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