# Heat pumps



## begreen (Jul 16, 2006)

I'm starting to rebuild our forced hot air system after getting the house on a new foundation. All ductwork is now well insulated. However, before having a new plenum made up, I am pondering either replacing the propane furnace or just keeping it for backup and switching to a heat pump for primary. We have no need for air conditioning, so I am less interested in the SEER efficiency than HSPF. 

The newest air heat pumps are getting to the point where they make geothermal less attractive. Can I get some feedback on what systems people are using? What company and model? What climate are you in and how well do you like it for heating? At what temp does the backup heat kick in? What is its age and what was the cost of installation?

BTW, it looks like Nyle products is about to come out with a heat-pump boiler designed to work in cold climates. I've requested more info on this system.


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## elkimmeg (Jul 17, 2006)

Begreen: My climate is not really condusive for heat pumps too cold. However some real effecient strides have been made recently.
 I wish I had more experience to draw upon but  I don't.  you climate might be ideal


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## begreen (Jul 17, 2006)

Nyle makes a heatpump for cold climates. Built for and made in Maine.

http://www.nyletherm.com/index_flash.htm


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## Roospike (Jul 17, 2006)

heatpump for cold climates .........Hummmmm. Interisting.


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## saichele (Jul 17, 2006)

Wait a minute - how do they get 270% heating efficiency?   (compared to 80% for conventional fossil fuels?)

That's, uh, pretty remarkable.

Steve


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## DonCT (Jul 17, 2006)

BG, please share any info you can get about their CCHP. I've been looking at replacing my old system from '89 that is extremely inefficient and is coming to its end of life.


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## begreen (Jul 17, 2006)

I'm not sure about Nyle's claims yet. At this point I am researching all options and their name kept popping up. I have no idea about how they are priced at this point. 

Mostly what I am looking at are units that have an HSPF over 9.0. There are several on the market by more conventional makers as well. The current hot technology is DC inverter heatpumps. They can throttle themselves back when the load is not at maximum. Here is a link that explains the technology and why they can make claims at greater than 100% efficiency. (This is relative to electric heat.) A heat pump doesn't create heat, it reclaims heat. "A typical small high tech, 1500watt (Electrical power consumption) Inverter Heat Pump can deliver over 3500watts of heat!" http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~eeh/heat_pump.htm

Don, for most current model comparisons, this doc is helpful:
http://www.aceee.org/consumerguide/hp.pdf


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## MaineWoods (Jul 17, 2006)

Hello Hearthnet,

I've been skulking around Hearthnet for some time now picking up information but never joined because of limited experience/knowlege of wood burning and overall lack of things to contribute.  However, I may be able to help on this subject. 

I live Hermon, Me  which is about 15 min from  Brewer, Me where Nyle Corp is located.  I've also been curious about these heat pumps and would like a different source of automatic heat besides oil.  I'm not a numbers guy so I'm not sure if with the high cost of electricity in Maine a HP would benefit me.  BUT for anyone in a state with cheap electricity they sound like a real alternative to burning oil/gas.

One thing you may not be aware of is that Nyle didnt come up with the heat pump themselves.  A guy named david shaw came up with the design and patents.  He contracted with Nyle to build the HP but I believe because of finacing reasons Nyle was dragging its feet.  Shaw left and is now in dealing with Hallowell International located in Bangor, Me.  Nyle still has rights to the Cold Climate Heat Pump name while Hallowell calls theirs Low Temperature Heat Pump.  

I stopped in to Hallowell location to try to find out what I could from them.  I expected to get some leaflets from a receptionist but was introduced to Hallowell himself and Scott Pinyard VP of Sales and Marketing.  They told me some general info about the HP and gave me a short tour of their testing lab.  

Although they said they are building HPs right now the facility is far from ready for full production and from what I saw is working with a handful of people.  I will try to stop in to Nyle Corp to find out what I can from them.

http://archrecord.construction.com/resources/conteduc/archives/0603edit-1.asp

http://www.gotohallowell.com

http://www.chelanpud.org/newsreleases/2005/ColdClimateHeatPump_040105.htm

Scott Pinyard
Vice President of Sales & Marketing
Hallowell International
110 Hildreth St
Bangor, Me 04401
(207) 990-5600 x116



Cliff Arnold-New HearthNet member
Hermon, ME

Pellet Burner and Soon to be Wood Burner


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## RoosterBoy (Jul 18, 2006)

sounds like a real nice setup what are your electrical rates in Maine per KWH? 
thanks
Jason


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## begreen (Jul 18, 2006)

Thanks for all the info Cliff and welcome aboard!


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## elkimmeg (Jul 18, 2006)

Begreen just like my first generation G5 1.8 iMac These are relitively new products. Being  manufactured by small companies not as large as Apple. 
You know where Iam going with this . Proceed with caution I doubt there are any certified techs in your have been trained to work on this new product. And what about parts distrobution?  Untill proven and time tested, unless they are giving them away, I would go with a brand name. Remember warranties are useless from a company non existant


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## saichele (Jul 18, 2006)

I'd be curious to know what they cost.  Have an older A/C unit with a 140K BTU gas furnace, but we rarely use either.  Have been considering replacing the A/C, particularly now that we're using it regularly.  I can almost hear the electric meter spinning when I'm going to sleep.  

If the cost of adding the CCHP were similar to a good AC unit, I'd do that and just keep the gas furnace for the absolute coldest days.  Most days we don't run the furnace at all, just the woodstove.

Steve


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## begreen (Jul 18, 2006)

I hear ya Elk. The technology is not that new, just new to the US. But I can't find a dealer for central heat pumps from Daikin, Mitsubishi, Panasonic, Sanyo, etc. These are really popular in Hawaii and westward throughout Asia. Very reliable, exceptionally quiet and time proven. We've be so awash in cheap energy that we've been complacent in this field.  So I'll probably end up with the most efficient American brand I can buy like York, Bryant or perhaps Lennox. I like Trane, but so far the quotes have been so high as to be plain silly.

Steve, price varies pretty wildly by region and your home requirements. But the newest units do save quite a bit over the older ones. I have a quote for adding a coil to my propane system (still want this for generator run backup heat in case of an extended power outage when it's really cold) and a top of the line Lennox, 3 ton for $6400. I'm expecting a York or Bryant system to come in around 5K. The Trane dealer wanted almost 9K just to install and wire the compressor. That's over 3 times wholesale. A whole system from these guys could cost more than a car.


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## DonCT (Jul 18, 2006)

I was reading a HVAC forum yesterday and found it quite enlightening. They (the professionals on the board) were chastising a home owner who was trying to get a layout of the pricing. For example:

Equipment: $XX.XX
Labor: $XX.XX
Supplies: $XX.XX
Tax $XX.XX
Total $XX.XX

They kept saying "You get what you pay for" or "We would walk away from a customer like you". All is all, I found them very secritive about their pricing, which makes on wary about getting ripped off. I talked my situation over with the fiance and we're going to be looking to replace my existing HP system with a newer more efficient model. But after reading all the stuff about the hassel, I'm kinda timid. How is the average home owner supposed to know what these should cost???? When I first moved into my place, I looked at upgrading the unit, the cheapest estimate I got was for $7000, and that was with ZERO duct work. Just a straight swap.

I don't know how a new system prices out compared to a swap out. But I hope you get a good deal. And keep us up to date


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## BrotherBart (Jul 18, 2006)

DonCT said:
			
		

> I was reading a HVAC forum yesterday and found it quite enlightening. They (the professionals on the board) were chastising a home owner who was trying to get a layout of the pricing.



Those HVAC forums and newsgroups are a snake pit. The same guys have been camped in them for years and rip the head off of any homeowner that ventures through. They treat any HVAC issue as black magic beyond the comprehension of anybody but them. And when a homeowner does not show up soon enough for them they start ripping each other apart.


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## saichele (Jul 18, 2006)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> DonCT said:
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In case anyone was doubting the value of the Ash Can - at least we can keep it to members only...


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## Eric Johnson (Jul 18, 2006)

I've found heatinghelp.com to be user friendly. Occasionally somebody will flame you, but all in all they're very helpful and there are some good brains to pick. I've had good luck there at any rate.

http://forums.invision.net/index.cfm?CFApp=2l.

I've done business with Nyle on the dehumidification dry kiln line. Based on that limited experience, I'd say they're a good company with solid technology.


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## suematteva (Jul 18, 2006)

Be Green,

At our place in Quebec, the Mrs. Vintage home has electric forced air system with an additional outside heat pump...Like Elk, mentioned we are limited as to when we can run it due to climate.  She learned about this after the 2nd season..I know very little about this...Electric in Quebec is significantly less due to the Hydro..Might it be worthwhile to look for info up there???  I can pull a name of the unit or ask a couple questions if you think it will help...Maybe even look at Hydro Quebec's website..Am sure it is also in English unless vous parlez francais? good luck.


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## elkimmeg (Jul 18, 2006)

Yeah I can outline 50 ways these "experts" cut corners Had one today Doing a final inspection.
  How come  there is no cold air blowing? I mean air is comming out but not cold Compressor  fan is working 
 no cold air Well it helps to connect the cooling line dosen't it as I discovered it had not been. So he goes out to the truck to get his tourch to solder it. Wait a minute sloder does not cut it  code requires brazing. WTF I never had to braze before/ I then and made the comment aren't you missing a few steps?  l
Like the line requires pressure testing up to 160 PSI then it has to be evacuated  and finaly It needs a coolant charge right? I mean its 96 out its the final mechanical inspection the home sold for 1 mill. Wouldn"t  it be nice if the AC worked?  The point here is remember about the amount of miss information given to us about wood stove installations from Quote " my dealer or my installer" Well expect the same treatment from HVAC people, Probably worse.  I am going to supply a lead of wholesalerthat will sell to the public. You can index pricing with.  You can ask him quality vollume questions and sizing. I did have a post for tonage sizing for cooling Give me your layout room sizes and I can work out the sizing without all the bs of selling a product to fit my inventory


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## begreen (Jul 18, 2006)

Been on both sides of the fence. My dad was a mechanical contractor, brother picked up the business. So I do have an idea of what's involved and respect the value of a well done job. But the Trane prices I got were just ridiculous. I did look for a few minutes at online purchasing, but Elk is right. This needs to be done correctly with brazing equipment, guage sets, vacuum pump, and I doubt I could legally by the refrigerant. However, it's not rocket science and the public should push back on the arcana. I have found a few dealers so far that I respect, no BS and their prices are right about where I would expect them to be. If a dealer is arrogant, I'd walk away. Imagine how they'll treat you when you need service.  - Oh, you didn't get our $600/yr service contract. Gee, that's too bad. This is gonna hurt you more than it hurts me.


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## MaineWoods (Jul 18, 2006)

Hello Again,

I stopped in to Nyle and was told they wont be producing any HPs until October at the earliest(but they've pushed back production before).  The first ones will be 1 1/2 ton units with larger units up to 4 tons to follow.  They dont have space at their current facility to make them.  They will have temporary facilities in Bangor until a larger permanent facility can be built in Brewer. 

Neither wanted to talk about pricing as installation will mostly be handled by hvac subcontractors.  Nyle did say they may do local installations themselves while Hallowell will be strictly subcontractor.

If I were a betting man I would say Nyle will be the most likely to get one to market.  They are an established buisness with management, billing and some manufacturing already in place making a different but similar product (wiring, ducts, plumbing, motors, valves, etc).  They are a small company but lumber kilns isnt exactly a high volume buisness.  Hallowell while professional and very optimistic is a start up company still in its infancy.  My .02 cents if you need somthing soon look elswhere.  Who knows when these will if ever get to market.

I hope they both get of the ground.  The eastern Maine region could use some good news.  The shoe industry is history,  the paper mills that havnt closed are on shaky finacial ground and the blueberry and pulp/lumber industries are being beat up by subsidized Canadian imports (thank-you NAFTA).

Electricity from Central Maine Power is .16 (thanks to the State of Maine for deregulating)

Wood pellet average price is $257/ton (Sams, Auboshon).  Cheapest I've found is Lignetics? brand at Blue Seal Feeds for $219/ton.

Mixed hardwood is $165 cut, split and delivered(green)

Heating Oil:   2.40/gallon for 150-400 gallons.  2.30 for 400 gallons or more.  Pre-buy was 2.69/gallon.

Propane?  Varies wildly.

New info from Hallowell: believable? 
http://www.gotohallowell.com/admin/assets/HHP_-_2_and_3_Ton_BTU_and_COP_Numbers.pdf

Cliff


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## cbrodsky (Jul 19, 2006)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> DonCT said:
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Wow, I'm glad I'm not the only one who had that opinion... can't remember what forum but it was insane.

I once fixed my aquastat controller by resoldering a relay joint that went bad.  Heat was failing intermittently and I heard a bunch of strange clicking from the relay.  All hell broke loose from the Honeywell employee getting offended and defense (I did comment on what a piece of crap this is to have a 1.5  yr old unit failing like that) to "I'd NEVER do something like that and you should only replace the unit..." (sure, for $300+ to a HVAC guy...) to "you're an accident waiting to happen trying to fix things like this yourself" - it was hysterical.  Simply identified the problem w/a resistance meter and fixed the bad joint - you'd think I welded up my own boiler or something.

-Colin


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## BrotherBart (Jul 19, 2006)

I got a lesson on those guys when I was a teenager. My uncle was an HVAC guy and for grins I would make Saturday calls with him. I don't know how many times I saw him hook up the Freon bottle and never open the valve. Or smack a relay with a screw driver, kick back for twenty minutes having a smoke and BSing and then hand out a hefty bill.


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## elkimmeg (Jul 19, 2006)

Begreen Im thinking what is the age and model of your current burner and its effeciency? Is it a one burner one zone setup. how is the second floor heated or zoned.  What is the current  return route and sizing and locations.  Finally app sq feet first and second floors.  What I am thinking is  to fine tune your feed and delivery systems first. Even a new  burner / heatpump needs an effecient delivery system to function correctly and effeciently


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## begreen (Jul 19, 2006)

Good questions. 1st fl. approx 1200 sq ft and 2nd about 800 sq ft. Current propane furnace is 92% AFUE. 

The return was a mess due to having to route around the old fireplace base (no longer an issue) and earlier remodels. I cleaned up the run, shortened it and added an 8 x 20 return in the living room. Now the system is well aspirated. Also relocated the supply duct to be a straight shot off the plenum instead before where it took a 90 off the side of the plenum and then ran down one side of the crawlspace with long runs snaking off of it. All supplies are now insulated, straight and some much shorter. Upstairs is smaller and just has 2 supplies, but that has worked very well for us comfortwise. All joints taped and sealed as we went along. No separate zone, but it is nicely balanced.


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## begreen (Jul 19, 2006)

Sanyo US has pretty complete info on their DC inverter systems. Note how quiet these things are. I'm going to poke around a bit to see if we have any dealers.
http://www.sanyo.com/industrial/HVAC/Concealed_Duct/Heat_Pumps/index.cfm?productID=1285


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## elkimmeg (Jul 19, 2006)

sorry for not getting back sooner I got into another what da --- inspections I should post that one  worst part its so bizzar you couldn't make them up.

 Age ? 92% is not that bad  not enough to justify buying to achiece 3 or 4% again age factor?

 I run two wood stoves. My main level is open to the kitchen, dinning room, and living room. An open set of stairs exits very near the main wood stove to my upstairs bedrooms. With the help of box fans, I can get the rear farthest bedroom up to 66 drgrees. I have another open set of staire  from my kitchen leading to my familly room. In the family room is the second VC Intrepid ii cat stove.  I have increased it usage to also 24/7. Some heat from the main stove does go up the stairway to the familly room. Here is where heating dymanics come into play. If I heat my familly room warmer that the main level,  it enhances that level heat and directs more heat to my bedrooms.  Hot air rises, If the air in my familly room is warmer, the main stove heat will not be drawn to heat the familly room ,more to heat the rest of my house.

 Apply this thinking to your home. Hot air rises and your upstairs bedrooms are coolest. What if they could be made warmer? That would allow your current wood stove to heat your larger first level better and less intervention of that main existing burner?

 Have you looked at it in these terms? Maybe you would best served by installing another separate system in your attic that covers the second floor.leaving the wood stove and main burner to just that level. Another factor as I try to think threw you situation, is any heat to you second floor is the farthest from the burner, least amount getting to the occupied space. There is transmission loss. Another factor you made no mention of second floor bedrooms returns  bedroom doors closed no returns.  supply = returns?

 Another variation of this would to employ a zone damper off your existing setup, just for the second floor. I think the  transmission lenght still presents issues and the need to return becomes more of an issue. Im just thinking about the most effecient vs money spent approach. BEgreen what do you think?


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