# sump pump....need the "good" brands



## ssupercoolss (Sep 8, 2011)

i'm sure there's people here that can steer me in the right direction on a new sump pump.  living in southeast PA lately i've come to appreciate my sump pump and the constant flow of electricity to my house.  after years of saying i need to install a back-up sump pump, now is the time.  i dont sleep well knowing what happened to my nieghbors basements when the power went out.  while i have the "no electricity" thing figured out, (at least for as long as the battery will last) i dont have the sump pump failure figured out.  i want to install a new sump pump, and use my current pump as my back-up, installed just a bit higher, all plumbed in properly. 

What are some of the good names in sump pumps?  i see wayne, rigid, liberty......i currently have a little giant that has done me ok, except a pressure switch failure on a rainy thanksgiving day.  i saw one today breezing through "cheapo depot" that ran at 5.4 amps, 1/3rd hp, where as my current one draws 9, so it only makes sense to spend some more dough on one that draws less, since it would run off my inverter in case of power failure.  

thanks.


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## maverick06 (Sep 9, 2011)

same here.... exactly the same. 

The little giant I have in my sump has to be early 90's if not earlier. So maybe thats a good brand to use. Of course my house was built in the 50's so I know that the pump has failed before. I likewise am thinking about getting a backup. Perhaps a full backup (separate discharge line as well).... 

I am thinking about getting a pedestal pump. The motor and switch are high and dry, so that must improve reliability  (at work I deal with things in water, and I know that no matter how good they are, and these are the best, water eventually causes problems).

But, I think i will get a cheap pedestal pump. This is the backup. If I ever see it running I will replace the primary pump as soon as I can with another good one. I assume that a cheap pump will at least last for a week or so until i get another one in there. My sump is very rarely wet as well, so neither see much use. Like many things, I think i will go with the lowest bidder.


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## Jack Straw (Sep 9, 2011)

Zoeller


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## Dune (Sep 9, 2011)

Jack Straw said:
			
		

> Zoeller



Plus one


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## North of 60 (Sep 9, 2011)

Have a look on their web.  One will fit your needs. 
http://www.femyers.com/products/sse.html


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## woodgeek (Sep 9, 2011)

Similar situation, mid rebuild of the junky install the previous owner left me with that failed.

I went for a Zoeller M-57 primary, and a Basement Watchdog 'Special' backup.  Looked at a lot of options before settling on this backup, and figure I will have to change out the battery every 3-5 yrs, which will be a PITA.  I like the second pump and the automatic feature of it.  The nominal run time on the backup pump is 7.5 hours, and that would have covered Irene in my case (12" of rain) on battery alone.

To the OP, if you have your own battery/inverter that is hefty, think about getting a 12V (marine) sump and tying it in directly.

Also, for $30 I bought a no moving part, water powered ram pump.  In a major event, I can deploy that guy with a couple garden hoses to do most of the work and extend that battery, perhaps indefinitely. Specifically, I got http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004SI6MXO  which, like most thinks sump-ish, is now out of stock. Of course, I have a walk-out basement, so the little ram pump is really a self-priming siphon, nominal 200 GPH, YMMV.  Good for peace of mind about really big events, <$100 with hoses, and will prob never be put to use.


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## ssupercoolss (Sep 9, 2011)

i have heard about the water siphon thing....neat, but at 200 GPH its like taking a knife to a gun battle.....where the guys with guns have fully automatic weapons with limitless ammo. the water usage is kinda crazy on that too.  i was so nervous the other day about this pump crapping out on me i quickly rigged up a 1/6 hp utility pump on a float as a back up.  that pump "holds its own" with whats currently coming into my sump pit.....basically figure running a garden hose full blast into the sump pit....thats how much water i have to deal with when it rains like this.  i havent looked to closely at the basement watchdog, but i did see they claim it will run for a really long time on battery, but i have my suspisions about what kind of gpm's it deals with.  honestly, my inverter/battery is going to work just long enough, should i not be home if the power is out on any normal rain day, and just long enough for me to put plan B into play for episodes like this week.


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## KarlP (Sep 9, 2011)

I have a FloTec FP0S2450A because the house came with one, it looked old when I moved in, it lasted five more years until the drain line froze, and the hole in my basement floor is exactly the right dimensions for that model.  It will pump ~2000GPH and keeps the water table from coming up to my basement floor.  I don't really have anything positive or negative to say about it.  

More importantly, I have a water alarm to tell me the pump should have come on 6" ago, a brand new spare sitting in a box on a nearby shelf, and a nearby outlet fed from the generator plug in the garage.  I'm only nervous if a major storm comes, the power goes out for a long time, and I'm not home to start the generator/move plugs.  We came home from vacation a day early to be home for Irene for that reason, but its pretty rare that all three occur.


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## joefrompa (Sep 9, 2011)

My sump was filling at a rate of about 6" every 10 seconds, so my guess is that for me I want to get a secondary sump that is hooked up in-line in the event the bottom pump fails


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## woodgeek (Sep 10, 2011)

Round numbers on most pits is 1" = one gallon.  I was running about 600 gph for about 10 hours, and 300 gph for another 20 hours after Irene, or about 12000 gallons total.  So, yeah, the little ram pump is a tad lame at 200 gph, even in my case, but it still would have moved about half of the Irene water, or more than half in a smaller (and potentially longer duration event).

The water usage is that it nominally takes 1 gallon to pump 2 gallons.  In 30 hours, it could pump 6000 gallons, and consume 3000 gallons, or about $15 added to my water bill for that rare event.


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## woodgeek (Sep 10, 2011)

futureboiler said:
			
		

> ... i havent looked to closely at the basement watchdog, but i did see they claim it will run for a really long time on battery, but i have my suspisions about what kind of gpm's it deals with.  honestly, my inverter/battery is going to work just long enough, should i not be home if the power is out on any normal rain day, and just long enough for me to put plan B into play for episodes like this week.



At 10 Amps, a small 0.3 hp pump is gonna draw 1200 W, your 0.15 hp pump maybe 600 W.  You have an inverter that can provide that on a decent duty cycle from your vehicle??

I guess I wanted an automatic backup, like either the watchdog or a honkin big UPS (I was looking at surplus 3000 VA sine-wave UPSes, about $500).  They make automatic water-driven, float switched backups, but I don't have a piped water supply in my pit location.  

The watchdog special is a bit bigger than the bottom of the line, nominally >1000 gph and 7.5 hr run time on battery.  If I decide I want more capacity, I can add a second battery.
I am skeptical too, I will time the pump rate after I get it installed and report back.


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## KarlP (Sep 10, 2011)

woodgeek said:
			
		

> At 10 Amps, a small 0.3 hp pump is gonna draw 1200 W, your 0.15 hp pump maybe 600 W.  You have an inverter that can provide that on a decent duty cycle from your vehicle??



No problem. 

1hp = 745 watts.  Your typical electric motor is between 70% and 90% efficient.  Therefore a 1/3HP sump pump will draw 300ish watts.  

A typical 80%-90% efficient 500w continuous/800w surge consumer grade inverter is sufficient.  Powering a 300w sump pump through an 80% efficient inverter, will draw ~28amps @ 13.5v.  Turn off all of the daytime running lights, blowers, etc, and most auto alternators can keep that up continuously without a problem.


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## egclassic (Sep 10, 2011)

woodgeek said:
			
		

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I replace dozens of these every year. This is definitly one of those times where, "you get what you pay for". Seen many, many of these watchdog systems from home depot fail.
Zoeller is one of the best pumps on the market. The M-53 is the top selling primary residential sump pump, and they sell battery back-up systems as well, which is what I have in my own house.
As far as the "water power" pumps, most of them are 2:1 ,2 gallons of tap water to remove one gallon of sump water. If you have allot of water coming into your pit, that can raise your water bill fairly quickly. Still cheaper than a flooded house/basement.
If you go with a battery back-up system, buy the best marine deep cycle battery you can afford and then maintain it, do not just "set it and forget it". Most of the systems I replace that had battery back up systems installed, had completly dried up batteries from no maintenance being done.


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## ssupercoolss (Sep 10, 2011)

woodgeek said:
			
		

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## woodgeek (Sep 10, 2011)

Ok, I get it now.  I figured you had an automatic transfer inverter--I've thought about getting something like that (still a lot cheaper and easier than a standby genny, IMO).  I DO have a 'micro' solar system I set up as a science project for my 11 yo.  Basically a 40 Ah marine battery hooked up to a 20W panel and controller.  We use it to charge our cell phones and other small fry.  But I learned about battery maintenance and have a little juice in the event of need.

The starting current on the 0.3 hp Zoeller is 27 Amps, or about 3200 VA (!)  Have you tested it against the surge capacity of your inverter?  Is your inverter sine-wave? Also, pulling 1000 W out of a marine battery is probably dicey unless you have few hundred Amp-hours.


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## woodgeek (Sep 10, 2011)

egclassic said:
			
		

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Thanks for the truth from the field.  

The old pump and float appeared to work fine, but seemed unfortunately to take a minute to get going.  That is, it started itself up after I got ~50 gallons of water on my carpet (twice).  Examination revealed no air hole in the discharge--the dreaded 'air-lock'?  So, I guess this guy works fine if the water rises slowly, and the air in the pump can leak slowly out the valve, and the impeller is wet when the float kicks on.  IF the water comes up fast, it overflows the pit until the impeller finally gets enough water for traction to open the valve.  Does that make sense?

It was 6 yo anyway, so I just put a new Zoeller M57 pump into my house with new Zoeller check valve and PVC plumbing to replace the undersized and leaky piping fittings that were in there. I like the build quality a lot.  Tropical storm Lee let me test it without breaking out the hose--no problem, >1000 gph, which is well above the max Irene rate, which was ~600 gph.

On the backup, I've already bought and received the mid-range watchdog.  I agree completely that it will only work as well as the battery maintenance schedule. I was planning on doing a little looking at the trickle charger--I suspect that it is running a little high in voltage or current and electrolyzing the water faster than really necessary. Might try to tweak it if I can. Worst case, I replace a $200 battery every 3 years.

In 6 years in this house, we have had lots of power outs, but never once when it was raining or below freezing out.  So, if I had had a battery backup sump, it would not yet have seen use.  Has your Zoeller back up seen use yet?  How is your battery holding up? On the 'net the Zoelletr backup looked like the same sort of not awe-inspiring kludgey equipment as the watchdog.


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## egclassic (Sep 10, 2011)

woodgeek said:
			
		

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Good point, I forgot to mention how important the "weep" hole is, seen many pumps burnt up that way. Also, some think you can install the pump without the check valve, it wil work but the pump won't last long. The pump needs resistence (head pressure) on start up and that is what the check valve provides.


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## begreen (Sep 10, 2011)

Back in the 80's I set up a commercial photolab that had to use sump pumps to handle the outflow from big processors running 24/7. These had to work or it would shut down production. My advice is to get a commercial pump, the kind a good rental shop would rent. You want stainless casings, excellent bearings and carbon seals tied to a reliable switching mechanism. Gould, Zoeller, AMT are some brands to look at. Meyers makes commercial sump pumps as well, but I never have used them. Zoeller is probably the easiest to find. Note, these pumps are expensive, but they are a world better than the cheap pumps sold in the big box stores.


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