# Oil vs. pellets



## stillersnut (Sep 6, 2015)

With oil prices @ $1.90, & projected to hold steady, I'm backing off my pellet purchases this yr.  early buy prices were way out of line in my area. I'm planning on running the oil monster majority of winter. Anyone else doing the same???


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## juno01 (Sep 6, 2015)

pellets ate made in the us,oil prices are based on the stock market.pellets all the way!


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## Pass the Pellets (Sep 6, 2015)

Stocking up on pellets regardless of the price of oil. Pellet prices are not coming down anytime soon. I might end up burning a little more oil than I have in previous winters and carry over some pellets for next winter.


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## Don2222 (Sep 6, 2015)

Hello

I got a Fili-up of oil which I use for hot water but if I cranked up the old inefficient oil boiler heat to be as cozy as pellet heat, I would use a lot more oil. Therefore even tho I do not sell pellets, I will be using my 3 tons of Oakanagan Golds I purchased in my American made Harman pellet stove where the money goes to American workers and American businesses to keep America strong.  
Also I like to relax in front of the fire.
Caveman TV


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## Pete Zahria (Sep 6, 2015)

juno01 said:


> pellets ate made in the us,oil prices are based on the stock market.pellets all the way!



More accurate to say that pellets are North American...
Without Canadian pellets, we would be up the creek....

Dan


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## unbidden (Sep 6, 2015)

I'm thinking I may go no stove when not home and pellets when home... don't know if that makes sense/cents but it's got me thinking.


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## moey (Sep 6, 2015)

Don2222 said:


> Hello
> 
> I got a Fili-up of oil which I use for hot water but if I cranked up the old inefficient oil boiler heat to be as cozy as pellet heat, I would use a lot more oil. Therefore even tho I do not sell pellets, I will be using my 3 tons of Oakanagan Golds I purchased in my American made Harman pellet stove where the money goes to American workers and American businesses to keep America strong.
> Also I like to relax in front of the fire.
> Caveman TV



US is the largest producer of oil in the world. Last summer US surpassed Russia and Saudi Arabia. People still assume our oil is coming from the middle east most does not.


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## MCPO (Sep 6, 2015)

juno01 said:


> pellets ate made in the us,oil prices are based on the stock market.pellets all the way!


Yeah, Like the pellet producers are really more concerned about me than their profits?


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## MCPO (Sep 6, 2015)

Don2222 said:


> Hello
> 
> I got a Fili-up of oil which I use for hot water but if I cranked up the old inefficient oil boiler heat to be as cozy as pellet heat, I would use a lot more oil. Therefore even tho I do not sell pellets, I will be using my 3 tons of Oakanagan Golds I purchased in my American made Harman pellet stove where the money goes to American workers and American businesses to keep America strong.
> Also I like to relax in front of the fire.
> Caveman TV


Time to replace the old oil guzzler isn`t it?


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## GS7 (Sep 6, 2015)

stillersnut said:


> With oil prices @ $1.90, & projected to hold steady, I'm backing off my pellet purchases this yr.  early buy prices were way out of line in my area. I'm planning on running the oil monster majority of winter. Anyone else doing the same???


 

Going to burn wood, but if the wood supply gets low probably oil over pellets if oil prices stay low


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## Don2222 (Sep 6, 2015)

MCPO said:


> Time to replace the old oil guzzler isn`t it?


I am actually leaning towards on Demand electric hot water with my indirect storage tank and just have the oil boiler for backup. How does that sound?


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## Bigjim13 (Sep 6, 2015)

Backing off pellets this year too.  Have a guy coming to give me an estimate on a new furnace too.  It will be nice to have options.


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## Shawn S (Sep 6, 2015)

My plan for this season is to start out burning oil for Oct, Nov & into Dec.
I have a full tank because I topped it off when it got down to 2.00 a gallon. (I should've waited...it's 1.80 now)
When it gets real cold in Jan, Feb & Mar I'll be switching to pellets 24/7.
I just ordered 4-tons and it will be here in 2 weeks.
If oil is still cheap in Jan/Feb, I'll probably top off the tank for the last few weeks before spring because the house gets too hot if I run pellets then.


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## MCPO (Sep 7, 2015)

Don2222 said:


> I am actually leaning towards on Demand electric hot water with my indirect storage tank and just have the oil boiler for backup. How does that sound?


Those units cost around $600 excluding the costs of plumbing and wiring . Plus electric rates jumped to a 37% increase last dec makes me think it`s a bad idea.
Seems to me an investment in a new updated furnace is the thing to do.


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## Pete Zahria (Sep 7, 2015)

Shawn S said:


> I have a full tank because I topped it off when it got down to 2.00 a gallon. (I should've waited...it's 1.80 now)



Never look back.....It could have gone to $2.20..


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## velvetfoot (Sep 7, 2015)

How efficient can oil boilers get nowadays?


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## jumpink (Sep 7, 2015)

I paid around $189 a ton last year.  Just checked prices and almost had a heart attack.  I thought pellets fluctuated with the price of oil.  I can't imagine there is a shortage of pellets or a huge increase in demand.  Anyone have any thoughts on the big price increase?


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## Peterfield (Sep 7, 2015)

There is no shortage of pellets right now.


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## smg64ct (Sep 7, 2015)

I'm actually thinking about selling my mt Vernon and switch to propane. Yes it will cost more but I'm tired of lugging these bags, taking all the space in the garage. Also, tired of all the dust in the house.


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## Bioburner (Sep 7, 2015)

Probably the biggest gripe I have about most pellet and wood stoves is the circulating of dust. The Bixby has a filter and I built a remote air fan box with a filter for the Harman and have to be careful about removal of ash bin and filling to minimize that dust.


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## Lake Girl (Sep 7, 2015)

Per this chart, $4.046 per gallon Cdn. as of July ... http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/econ152i-eng.htm
Still not a great heating option here

$3515 for oil, $2,199.25 for pellets using the fuel calculator at $7/bag


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## Pellet-King (Sep 7, 2015)

velvetfoot said:


> How efficient can oil boilers get nowadays?


98% Adams furnace, could of scored one for $1000 on Ebay, local sale too


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## Phoenix Hatchling (Sep 7, 2015)

velvetfoot said:


> How efficient can oil boilers get nowadays?


Very. Some approach or exceed efficiency of the exalted pellet stoves.


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## DneprDave (Sep 7, 2015)

I use my pellet stove to augment my forced air oil furnace. By doing this, I went from burning about 600 gallons of oil a year to 165 gallons of oil last year, while burning 2 1/2 tons of pellets.

So, burning  with no pellet stove,  $2.00/ gallon X 600 gallons = $1200

With a pellet stove, with the local pellets price of $200/ton, X 2 1/2 tons = $500
My oil furnace used 165 gallons X $2.00/gallon = $330

That's $830 dollars total to heat my house using both pellets and oil, saving me $370 .

I'm burning pellets again this year.

Dave


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## velvetfoot (Sep 7, 2015)

200 a ton is a good price.


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## bags (Sep 7, 2015)

Dave, How many SQ FT are you heating if I may ask? I wish I could get by heating for $830 a winter. Lucky Dog!


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## Michael6268 (Sep 7, 2015)

Yeah. Did you steal them? LOL


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## bags (Sep 7, 2015)

I have recently found Greenways for $205 per ton and Somersets for $219 a ton locally which is a good price. I have not burned anything other than 6 tons of Sets and a ton of Pros last season and both were good. A local friend said he likes the Greenways and that's his stash for the season.

At these prices pellets are a cost effective heat source but Dave sounds as if he gets to double dip this season. Cheap oil and economically priced pellets. No oil option here but I would heat as cheap as possible if I could. Did wood for many years but it's just not feasible for me right now.

It's when I see a ton of pellets going for close to $300 a ton and north of that my eyes bug out and chin drops. That's where oil being cheap now is a very viable option for those who can utilized cheaply priced home heating oil.


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## DneprDave (Sep 7, 2015)

bags said:


> Dave, How many SQ FT are you heating if I may ask? I wish I could get by heating for $830 a winter. Lucky Dog!



The house is 1600 square feet, the thermal glass enclosed porch with the pellet stove in it is about 400 square feet. So, 2000 square feet total. The house is single story.
The view side of the house is all thermal glass and the porch was originally just an outside deck. I enclosed it and insulated the roof and floor. We used to keep the sliding glass doors to the porch closed in the winter, but still lost a lot of heat through the glass on the house and the glass on the porch. After installing the pellet stove on the porch, my heating costs went way down. We now leave the sliding doors to the porch open all winter to let the heat from the pellet stove into the house. 

In the winter, the temperature can get down to 20F but not for a long time, usually it is in the thirties and forties. If we get any snow, it stays for about a week or two, winters are mostly rainy.

Dave
.


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## bags (Sep 7, 2015)

Yes, your temps help some vs. some of us that get consistently colder temps. I was out at Ft Lewis in the late 80's so I have an idea of your weather. Still $830 total for an entire heating season is a great number. Some here would probably pay that is two to three cold months just heating like the vast majority without wood or pellet options supplementing. Plus you are heating about an average sized place everyone else here is doing plus or minus an little.

$830 is highly respectable. My hat is off to you. I thought I did well last season for right under $1,400 with 2,350 SQ FT but you have almost cut that in half with only 350 Sq Ft less. I also heated from Oct 18th thru March and into the first or second week of April so right at 6 months. It was a nasty and cold winter here but I am happy with my costs and warmth. Cheaper oil and realistically priced pellets and you have it whipped.


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## DneprDave (Sep 7, 2015)

The house next door is a rental, it was built in the '60's, with little or no insulation, it has very large single pane glass windows. It is heated with a forced air oil furnace. One of the tenants said that he was moving, after a winter in that house, it was costing him almost $700/ month to heat it. It was a colder than usual winter though and oil prices were high.

Dave


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## Lake Girl (Sep 8, 2015)

DneprDave said:


> With a pellet stove, with the local pellets price of $200/ton, X 2 1/2 tons = $500  Dave



You always get great pellet pricing but you're nearer most of the softwood source pellets!


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## velvetfoot (Sep 8, 2015)

Pretty sweet!


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## Jason845845 (Sep 8, 2015)

Just bought 200 gallons of oil and I have two mixed tons of Okanagan platinum, La Cretes and stove chow.  I imagine that will get me through most of the winter and  I will probably buy more oil if I run out of pellets if oil prices stay the same.


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## Peterfield (Sep 8, 2015)

Jason845845 said:


> Just bought 200 gallons of oil and I have two mixed tons of Okanagan platinum, La Cretes and stove chow.  I imagine that will get me through most of the winter and  I will probably buy more oil if I run out of pellets if oil prices stay the same.



That's the beauty of this heating season, you can scrimp on pellets knowing oil is cheap and an excellent alternative money-wise and convenience-wise.


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## alternativeheat (Sep 11, 2015)

Up here in New England where we do get winter weather I intend to supplement the oil with a few pellets this winter. I can keep the house at 73 that way, a temp I would never do with oil alone at any price because the upper floor would be far too hot that way and suck far too much oil . I might use two tons this winter. And the shoulder season will be on oil most likely. I'm not looking at pellets till late Dec except a test burn or weekend burn if I want one. I'm sure I will supplement the oil in Jan and Feb, thats kind of a given.

The latest report on imported oil here in the US  that I know of is far east oil is less than 5% of what we use. we get far more from Canada, even Mexico, not to mention our own, though we mostly export ours for what ever unknown reason.


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## mass_burner (Sep 11, 2015)

Pete Zahria said:


> More accurate to say that pellets are North American...
> Without Canadian pellets, we would be up the creek....
> 
> Dan


Do they use pellets in Russia? They got a crapload of trees.


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## MuchoBueno (Sep 11, 2015)

Hello everybody. Everywhere I look in the Hudson valley the prices are mostly the same. From $269 at HD, Lowes , and Walmart. $289+ at my local pellet stove store. I just can't believe the jump in prices. There are tons of pellets to be had everywhere I look but at these prices I might burn the black gold for a bit and wait to make my pellet purchases. You guys and girls think that's a good idea, to wait to buy pellets? Should I just get my 4 tons now  or should I wait a bit and hope prices come down a little?


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## Michael6268 (Sep 11, 2015)

I would go with whatever is cheaper for you. If oil is cheaper I would stick with oil. If oil goes up or pellets go down you can always switch.


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## smalltown (Sep 16, 2015)

Last year I had a very hard getting pellets. I wanted La Crete, but my local suppliers were out. One dealer told me the plant was shut down (E-mailed the plant in Canada "not so" the problem was with trucking: truckers wanted a return load, and they had problems finding one). Second dealer was out, third was expecting delivery quickly, but never received any more La Crete. My pellet pile was down to 10 bags, and it was getting cold. So I paid more for Okie Platinum that finally arrived with snow already on the ground. I like Okies, but for some reason they didn't seem to be outputting the heat. This year I wanted to buy early. My first dealer was already out of La Crete in early August, the second wasn't even listing them for sale, but the third had Spruce Point with free delivery so I opted for 3.6 tons of Spruce Point. I've tested them before in my Castile and they were on a par with the La Crete's. So I am sitting on 4 tons of pellets.

Keeping the discussion with the original post I am trying to find the calculator that is somewhere on this forum that was used to calculate the breakeven point of oil verses wood pellets. Anybody have the link?
I also am wondering if I should burn some more oil this winter, and save my pellets?


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## Bioburner (Sep 16, 2015)

americanenergysystems.com has a cost savings chart you can load your $$ for several fuels. Couple others if you google pellet fuel conversion


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## smalltown (Sep 16, 2015)

Thanks bioburner. Running that calculator my break even price for fuel oil would be 2.65 a gallon, and I am told oil is well under that.


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## Bioburner (Sep 16, 2015)

Just don't know how long the oil will stay low as last couple days the markets have been pushing oil back up. Will enjoy the gas stove more this winter and back way off the corn and pellets. Still very hard to beat corn at 3.65/bu


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## Peterfield (Sep 16, 2015)

smalltown said:


> Thanks bioburner. Running that calculator my break even price for fuel oil would be 2.65 a gallon, and I am told oil is well under that.



Most certainly is and oil will stay low for a while.  One of the items holding up treaty with Iran is how to control the  downward price pressure that will occur when millions of barrels of Iranian oil hit the market.  Saudi's are pumping like crazy to keep the price down, win more market share and slow down U.S production, which as already occurred to some degree.  Even in the Northeast, traditionally having oil prices higher than most anywhere else, it's down to around $2.00 a gallon if you look around.

This is actually a great development for heating this winter as last year's "get your pellets before they run out" mantra will most likely ring hollow this year.  All the pellets you want this year at $300+ per ton and if not, a lot of us will have an economical alternative.


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## silverfox103 (Sep 18, 2015)

Been burning pellets since 2008.  Haven't bought oil since 2011 since we bought the second stove.  

Made up my mind yesterday, to buy oil.  Pellets are at 259 in northern NH, oil is at 2.03.  Went on one of those sites that figures these things out.  Using oil is about 15% ahead of the game over pellets.  At 66, and in good shape, I think I'll take a year off from lugging pellets.  There is no doubt in my mind, that it won't be long before it's more advantageous to burn pellets, but not this year.  I'm sure we'll still lite the stoves on occasion.

Tom


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## Michael6268 (Sep 18, 2015)

Smart man Tom!
Save your money!  I still cant understand why so many people want to spend more for pellets when oil is easier and cheaper...


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## silverfox103 (Sep 18, 2015)

You're right Mike.

When oil is $4.00 per gallon, I'll lug the pellets, no questions asked.  But, when oil is $2.00 per gallon, I pick up the phone and call the oil man.

Tom


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## mass_burner (Sep 18, 2015)

Oil price today, 1.85. Should be cheaper on Monday, as it went down today.


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## Peterfield (Sep 19, 2015)

Peterfield said:


> Most certainly is and oil will stay low for a while.  One of the items holding up treaty with Iran is how to control the  downward price pressure that will occur when millions of barrels of Iranian oil hit the market.  Saudi's are pumping like crazy to keep the price down, win more market share and slow down U.S production, which as already occurred to some degree.  Even in the Northeast, traditionally having oil prices higher than most anywhere else, it's down to around $2.00 a gallon if you look around.
> 
> This is actually a great development for heating this winter as last year's "get your pellets before they run out" mantra will most likely ring hollow this year.  All the pellets you want this year at $300+ per ton and if not, a lot of us will have an economical alternative.



On the AP wire this morning:

http://bigstory.ap.org/urn:publicid:ap.org:8b4df9a41c694df788512c7a6f8179c4

Basically, all market indicators support downward trend in oil prices.


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## Bioburner (Sep 19, 2015)

Bloomberg.com posted an article yesterday that the only reason oil wasn't tanking faster was that the Chinese are stockpiling a reserve that has a way to go to match that of the US. US reserve I believe is 700 million barrels


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## Pete Zahria (Sep 19, 2015)

Michael6268 said:


> ... I still cant understand why so many people
> want to spend more for pellets when oil is easier and cheaper...



Maybe because they aren't set up for oil?
Just a thought.

Dan


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## Lake Girl (Sep 19, 2015)

Not sure of the state of heating oil in Canada but, gas prices have increased ... in theory since crude oil prices have dropped so much that cost should have gone down big.  Reality is not so much ... we have the crude here in Canada but little refining capability.


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## Lake Girl (Sep 19, 2015)

smalltown said:


> I am trying to find the calculator that is somewhere on this forum




https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/fuel_cost_comparison_calculator/


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## mralias (Sep 19, 2015)

Lake Girl said:


> https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/fuel_cost_comparison_calculator/


Ouch! Oil is half the cost of pellets right now....Going to be very difficult to convince the wife I need another ton of pellets...


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## Papelletman (Sep 19, 2015)

Either way I'm set, I have 7 tons of pellets and a full tank of oil, also i was on a monthy payment plan for oil so I will not have to pay for the next couple of deliveries.

Maybe just run the pellet stove on low instead of medium or high and use oil to keep the temp where i want it. We'll just have to see what oil does once we get into the heating season.

I would not like having my pellets take up a bay in my garage all summer, but if I have to I will, after all they won't go bad!


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## Peterfield (Sep 19, 2015)

Already starting to see ads on CL selling pellets because "they have excess" or "need the space" or "decided not to use pellets this year", etc.   I remember seeing these toward the end of a heating season but not leading into it.


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## Pete Zahria (Sep 19, 2015)

Peterfield said:


> Already stating to see ads on CL selling pellets because "they have excess" or "need the space" or "decided not to use pellets this year", etc.   I remember seeing these toward the end of a heating season but not leading into it.


But in the state that we live in, there were only 6 ads.

Wood Pellets.com
Dick's Stove center
Pro Lawn Supply
A guy with 11 damaged bags for Best Offer
One guy with one ton for $265
That guy with the Blazers
I don't see a panic situation... at least in our neck of the woods..


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## Michael6268 (Sep 19, 2015)

If things continue the way they are, pellets IMO will soon be a thing of the past. When pellet stoves first came out, pellets were made out of scrap wood that nobody wanted. Pellets were cheap. I remember paying $74 a ton. Now they are growing and cutting trees to make pellets because of high demand. That and the current price gouging all are going to lead to the demise of pellets. People will soon realize the work and cost just are not worth it.


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## bags (Sep 19, 2015)

> Michael6268 said:
> 
> 
> > I remember paying $74 a ton.


A friend of mine who steered me towards pellets was paying $169 per ton here in 2012. There are tons of good pellets to be had still from $205-$235 per ton around here but the prices have jumped. HD & Lowe's are at $250 per ton this season so they have gone up $81 per ton. 

Pellets are still cheap here comparatively speaking but that's still a decent increase in a short time. I have a feeling HD & Lowe's might be sitting on some this coming April. I hope so and they will offer them at a discounted price. 

I will get away from them when they hit $300 a ton. Maybe less than that. That is of course there are cheaper or better alternatives. I may just say the hell with it all and move somewhere warm or transplant seasonally missing Jan.- March here. Sick of the cold crap after the last three nasty winters here. I wouldn't want to live in Florida year round but there would be no complaints during the winter. Plus I'd still get in some fire time Oct.- Dec.


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## Peterfield (Sep 19, 2015)

bags said:


> A friend of mine who steered me towards pellets was paying $169 per ton here in 2012. There are tons of good pellets to be had still from $205-$235 per ton around here but the prices have jumped. HD & Lowe's are at $250 per ton this season so they have gone up $81 per ton.
> 
> Pellets are still cheap here comparatively speaking but that's still a decent increase in a short time. I have a feeling HD & Lowe's might be sitting on some this coming April. I hope so and they will offer them at a discounted price.
> 
> I will get away from them when they hit $300 a ton. Maybe less than that. That is of course there are cheaper or better alternatives. I may just say the hell with it all and move somewhere warm or transplant seasonally missing Jan.- March here. Sick of the cold crap after the last three nasty winters here. I wouldn't want to live in Florida year round but there would be no complaints during the winter. Plus I'd still get in some fire time Oct.- Dec.




It's odd but you see in the northwest pretty good prices for douglas fir pellets compared to the northeast and folks say it's because the trees are in that area and they cost more here because of transportation costs and the like.  Well, we have the Great North Woods in Maine, extensive forests in NH and Vermont, so would the same logic apply?  You're talking about a former waste product (sawdust) that used to be discarded and now people think it's made of gold.  It's not like they have to "manufacture" the stuff.


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## Peterfield (Sep 19, 2015)

Pete Zahria said:


> But in the state that we live in, there were only 6 ads.
> 
> Wood Pellets.com
> Dick's Stove center
> ...



Should have added that I was using SearchTempest to look at New England, not just NH.  I certainly expect folks to cull their supply in the Spring, just can't recall folks doing it in the fall but maybe I just didn't notice before.


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## bags (Sep 19, 2015)

Pellets also seem a bit more abundant around here as they are arriving at places and there is not any type of demand I have seen thus far but it is still warm. The first cold snap may shake the pellet heads out. I agree about how the fluctuations in prices people here pay per ton really makes little to zero sense if you think about it. 

Just another way recycling waste has turned into another cash cow for some. I have a friend that heated his auto shop with waste oil and eliminated disposal fees and such. Now there are companies that pay for that same waste oil that he previously had to pay to get rid of.

They will always figure out a way to sell ice to the Eskimos......


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## Pellet-King (Sep 19, 2015)

Michael6268 said:


> If things continue the way they are, pellets IMO will soon be a thing of the past. When pellet stoves first came out, pellets were made out of scrap wood that nobody wanted. Pellets were cheap. I remember paying $74 a ton. Now they are growing and cutting trees to make pellets because of high demand. That and the current price gouging all are going to lead to the demise of pellets. People will soon realize the work and cost just are not worth it.


When  I bought my stove $134 a ton for several yr was the norm Including delivery, I paid a few times $100 a ton at Walmart early 2000's, spring sales, I remember seeing $180 a ton at a small dealer and thought, i'll never pay that!, this winter may be the first I don't buy pellets in 18 yr's, I have maybe 1/3 ton left from past few yr's


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## Grisu (Sep 19, 2015)

Michael6268 said:


> If things continue the way they are, pellets IMO will soon be a thing of the past.



Really think that our grandchildren will have enough oil left to waste it for heat?


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## BrotherBart (Sep 19, 2015)

Grisu said:


> Really think that our grandchildren will have enough oil left to waste it for heat?



Or trees?


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## Michael6268 (Sep 19, 2015)

No one really knows how long oil reserves will last. Estimates are 60 years give or take. I personally don't think our grandchildren and their children are going to be messing around with solid fuels in the future. With wind power, solar etc, there will be too many options that are easier, cleaner and more convenient.


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## BrotherBart (Sep 19, 2015)

Nukes are going to be making a comeback real soon. Soon being a relative thing.


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## Peterfield (Sep 19, 2015)

Michael6268 said:


> No one really knows how long oil reserves will last. Estimates are 60 years give or take. I personally don't think our grandchildren and their children are going to be messing around with solid fuels in the future. With wind power, solar etc, there will be too many options that are easier, cleaner and more convenient.



My brother-in-law who is in the energy business told me the focus is already shifting to natural gas and not oil in terms of exploration efforts.


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## Grisu (Sep 19, 2015)

Michael6268 said:


> No one really knows how long oil reserves will last.



So when we burn oil instead of pellets will those reserves last more or less time? 


Michael6268 said:


> Estimates are 60 years give or take.



When my children should hopefully still be alive.


Michael6268 said:


> With wind power, solar etc, there will be too many options that are easier, cleaner and more convenient.



Nothing yet invented is easier than pulling a gallon of liquid containing 140,000 BTU out of the ground. And nothing is more convenient than having that dense of an energy source fill up your tank. Ask the airline industry what they think of solar, wind etc. for their future fuel needs. I give you cleaner, though.


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## BrotherBart (Sep 19, 2015)

Grisu said:


> When my children should hopefully still be alive.



Why a guy almost wrecked his car in Dallas one day in 1978 when we were coming back from lunch having this discussion and just to mess with him I said "Don't care. I don't have kids.". He went nuts and almost wrecked us.


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## Michael6268 (Sep 20, 2015)

Grisu said:


> Nothing yet invented is easier than pulling a gallon of liquid containing 140,000 BTU out of the ground. And nothing is more convenient than having that dense of an energy source fill up your tank. Ask the airline industry what they think of solar, wind etc. for their future fuel needs. I give you cleaner, though.




I meant "easier"than solid fuels...


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## GS7 (Sep 20, 2015)

jumpink said:


> I paid around $189 a ton last year.  Just checked prices and almost had a heart attack.  I thought pellets fluctuated with the price of oil.  I can't imagine there is a shortage of pellets or a huge increase in demand.  Anyone have any thoughts on the big price increase?



Pure greed, assuming people will buy.


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## Cory S (Sep 20, 2015)

BrotherBart said:


> Nukes are going to be making a comeback real soon. Soon being a relative thing.


There should be reactors in EVERY state/county IMO....  Best form of energy ever.


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## Wilbur Feral (Sep 20, 2015)

MCPO said:


> Those units cost around $600 excluding the costs of plumbing and wiring . Plus electric rates jumped to a 37% increase last dec makes me think it`s a bad idea.
> Seems to me an investment in a new updated furnace is the thing to do.


Sorry to pull up a post from two weeks ago, but just getting back to the forum.  An on-demand electric water heater pulls an incredible amontt of energy when it's needed, so even running the cable is a chore.  If possible, NG or propane better for on demand systems.  May I propose a heat pump style hot water heater if you're going electric?  It takes heat from the surrounding air and uses it to heat hot water, very efficiently.  We installed one last year and are thrilled with it.  Removes excess heat from the house in the summer, and in winter our pellet stoves are producing plenty of heat, and we certainly don't notice the "heat loss" from the air.  Amd if demand is high (e.g., guests all taking showers, etc), they have an electric heating element just like a regular electric water heater.


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## bags (Sep 20, 2015)

> Wilbur Feral said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry to pull up a post from two weeks ago, but just getting back to the forum. An on-demand electric water heater pulls an incredible amontt of energy when it's needed, so even running the cable is a chore. If possible, NG or propane better for on demand systems. May I propose a heat pump style hot water heater if you're going electric? It takes heat from the surrounding air and uses it to heat hot water, very efficiently. We installed one last year and are thrilled with it. Removes excess heat from the house in the summer, and in winter our pellet stoves are producing plenty of heat, and we certainly don't notice the "heat loss" from the air. Amd if demand is high (e.g., guests all taking showers, etc), they have an electric heating element just like a regular electric water heater.


Those water heaters are commonly used with geo systems around here which both are becoming increasingly popular but have a large initial investment. I looked into the geo's 13 years ago and all said and done it did not make it worth while at the time for me. Looking back I wish I would have gone that route.

That said I would have still been paying for electric heat $$$$ during the winter to a large degree. Geo's are GREAT for AC. They assist with heat up until it gets cold, cold. Much like a heat pump but with the geo's the starting point is 53 degrees or so coming in from the loops. Anything above that is heated with an electric $$$$ heat pack that sits inside the unit directly above the blower motor. In fact when a heat pack is installed the blower is taken out and the heat pack goes where the blower came from and then the blower is attached to the heat pack.

Geo's are good but they also have their short falls. The costs of the equipment, loops and excavation, etc. Geo's are also much like any other HVAC air handlers meaning they sometimes go caput and die in 10 - 20 years and need to be replaced. AT that time you are set up for Geo and therefore going to pay more for a replacement. I have friends in the Geo business and am fairly familiar with them. 

Ironically many of the Geo techs do not have one in their homes. This is a fact I know. Some of these guys do but the majority prefer older simpler style systems for numerous reasons.


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## Pellet-King (Sep 20, 2015)

Wilbur Feral said:


> Sorry to pull up a post from two weeks ago, but just getting back to the forum.  An on-demand electric water heater pulls an incredible amontt of energy when it's needed, so even running the cable is a chore.  If possible, NG or propane better for on demand systems.  May I propose a heat pump style hot water heater if you're going electric?  It takes heat from the surrounding air and uses it to heat hot water, very efficiently.  We installed one last year and are thrilled with it.  Removes excess heat from the house in the summer, and in winter our pellet stoves are producing plenty of heat, and we certainly don't notice the "heat loss" from the air.  Amd if demand is high (e.g., guests all taking showers, etc), they have an electric heating element just like a regular electric water heater.


I installed a GE Hybrid, Water Heater 2 yr's ago, cost me $199 after rebates, so I dont care if it stop's working have the electric coil to use, really never saw my electric bill go down, also I've noticed the fan when in heat pump mode is alot quieter than it used to be, I cleaned the filter once when the alarm came on


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## bags (Sep 20, 2015)

Just to back up exactly what Pellet-King stated. I too installed a rebate friendly electric Rheem Marathon HW heater I bought from my local Electric coop because it was the cat's meow and was supposed to have all of these savings, benefits, and Being Green. Yeah, right!

Maybe if it came in a "green"color instead of the gray. Point is I have observed no benefit other than it is an all plastic unit so no rusty tank down the road. The only energy benefit I see is when my OWB Woodmaster 5500 is fired and I then get "free" hot water. Unlimited too, but I am on a well so that is not like taking a 30 minute long hot shower at a hotel like my two girls like to do daily.

Bottom line is that I have not experienced ANY reductions on electric use either since I installed it. Many of these programs are simply feel good gimmicks IMHO. Solar is the way to go BUT it can not be mastered yet. It's getting better but not totally figured out nor is it more cost effective and convenient overall.

Problem is with old battery technologies and storage principles. My friend Dan is a solar guru and yes he practices what he preaches but he will be the first to say it really isn'e feasible because of the battery issues. His company is Sun Harvesters. Maybe a franchise but never the less it is pasted all over his vans he now uses for mid evil construction work.

Most of his work is domestic hot water and it's awesome in the summer and pool heating. He does do complete systems but doesn't have a 100% on his own home yet because he doesn't want to "camp out" year round nor live at a home steading commune. Is it worth the expense when you can buy a solar type pool cover for chump change? He was busy for a minute and now he is back to being a carpenter. Fact


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## Bioburner (Sep 20, 2015)

Nissan was showing off a truck that had a hydrogen electric system and was pairing it to a parabolic concentrator to produce your own hydrogen. Would have been cheaper to produce than a regular truck and no emissions unless you think water is one. If electric rates were high in peak time you could have plugged your house to it. 2005. Someone found a liquid that would absorb hydrogen like acetone does acetylene gas. Guess who would not like loosing revenue!?


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## bags (Sep 20, 2015)

Yes Sir. It's big business and big government officials in their back pockets hampering reasonable sustainable progress and things that make way better sense. Check out the Saturn electric cars way back when two decades ago they only leased them so they could retrieve and crush them.

Not saying they had it all figured out then but now why are we currently re-inventing those wheels? I don't care if one prefers to ride the blue donkey or the red elephants at election time. Both are moronic. Point is all of the liars are blowing big business and we aren't getting any reach around. It's all about the money on both teams. They win. We lose. BS! 

Guess what will happen when hydrogen takes off in cars. Insurance will sky rocket because of wet roads. Doesn't matter now with rain and snow but those water drops will. I hate politicians (all of them, I'm an EOE kind of guy so no discrimination there) and greedy big biz. It's killing us in many ways. Anyway piss on the politics have "fun" and enjoy being *****. 

I just try to cover myself for when they come running with the big biz and regulations hard ons they bounce off. It's still no fun dodging those. And we pay for this amusement park thrill ride. Something is very, very WRONG with that IMO. But who am I?


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## Pellet-King (Sep 20, 2015)

Solar now uses inverters not batteries which I last saw 5 yr's ago, I use 750-1100 KWH per month they can maybe offer 750kwh a month, so after paying them $75 a month for the next 20 yrs and still have to pay Electric co not really saving anything.


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## Peterfield (Sep 20, 2015)

At present, the only green benefit is the green these technologies earn for a well positioned few.  Why do you think businesses donate millions of dollars to political campaigns? Here's a hint, it not civic duty.


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## mass_burner (Sep 23, 2015)

I'm slightly ammused by folks who insist on burning pellets when oil is actually cheaper in their situation. I cant' remember any "I love to burn oil..." folks back in 2013 when oil was 3.80 gal.


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## bogieb (Sep 23, 2015)

mass_burner said:


> I'm slightly ammused by folks who insist on burning pellets when oil is actually cheaper in their situation. I cant' remember any "I love to burn oil..." folks back in 2013 when oil was 3.80 gal.


Maybe because you can't see the pretty flame in an oil burner, nor can you go stand beside one and get instantly warm when you've just been outside in the -18F winter weather.

I got no skin in that game - don't burn oil for anything, so it makes no never mind to me what the price is.

Edit: Well, I do burn an oil mixture in my chainsaw, so that previous statement wasn't entirely factual - LOL


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## Pete Zahria (Sep 23, 2015)

mass_burner said:


> I'm slightly ammused by folks who insist on burning pellets when oil is actually cheaper in their situation. I cant' remember any "I love to burn oil..." folks back in 2013 when oil was 3.80 gal.



I'm amused at the people that wait for 13 cars in a line at Dunkin Donuts, to by a $2.50 cup of coffee
when you can make one at home for 25¢.......
I'm amused at the people that still change their oil at 3000 miles.
Or fill their car up with high test.
Amused at people that pay $65 for a steak.

If you bought $1,000 worth of oil,today pellets would cost you about $1,120. ($1.95/$259)
So the difference is about +$120...
Probly what it cost to have your annual oil burner cleaning/servicing.
I don't have oil, so that's just a guess.
So the difference isn't "that" much...
Maybe some people just like feeding a fire?
Doesn't it all boil down to what a person wants?

I've seen so many comments here calling people nutz for burning pellets.
Why not just go to an oil forum and talk about oil?


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## moey (Sep 23, 2015)

A lot of folks have their head in the sand about the cost of oil. Yes these people exist. Hopefully this thread makes people evaluate if they want to burn pellets.


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## Cory S (Sep 23, 2015)

I'm excited to burn pellets this year.... If my FHA furnace was oil fired however, I can guarantee you I would be filling the tank to the top @ 1.89/gallon and using a combination of both...  My current FHA furnace is a 90% efficient LP gas unit, and LP suppliers are still raping homeowners in this area for $2.59-2.79/gallon.......


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## Bioburner (Sep 23, 2015)

bogieb said:


> can't see the pretty flame in an oil burner, nor can you go stand beside one and get instantly warm


 You've never experienced a Jungers oil stove. Seigler made a couple of models too. No noise(or electricity)when used. Glass viewing window to see a blue flame off the top of glowing red vaporizers. I grew up with one in the kitchen of the old farm house. Usually had a soup pot going and a tea kettle on the back for instant hot water.


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## Bioburner (Sep 23, 2015)

Cory S said:


> still raping homeowners in this area for $2.59-2.79/gallon


 I would drop a line to someone at the state level to see why so high as the EIA stated Monday the country is at a 22 year high storage of LP


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## Cory S (Sep 23, 2015)

Bioburner said:


> I would drop a line to someone at the state level to see why so high as the EIA stated Monday the country is at a 22 year high storage of LP


NH is the worst in New England...  My neighbor works for an oil/propane company and he just told me their cost is a mind boiling $1.03/gallon right now....  The mark up is absolutely ridiculous...


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## Grisu (Sep 23, 2015)

Cory S said:


> NH is the worst in New England...  My neighbor works for an oil/propane company and he just told me their cost is a mind boiling $1.03/gallon right now....  The mark up is absolutely ridiculous...



All that price gouging in the oil industry. When do people get smart and start burning pellets.


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## Michael6268 (Sep 23, 2015)

bogieb said:


> Maybe because you can't see the pretty flame in an oil burner, nor can you go stand beside one and get instantly warm when you've just been outside in the -18F winter weather.
> 
> I got no skin in that game - don't burn oil for anything, so it makes no never mind to me what the price is.
> 
> Edit: Well, I do burn an oil mixture in my chainsaw, so that previous statement wasn't entirely factual - LOL



Pretty flame??
You want pretty flames, burn wood or coal.
Pellets are like looking at a blow torch..
Just sayin...LOL


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## Bioburner (Sep 23, 2015)

If you want natural log like flames, check out the Hestia. It has a 8 plus inch by 3.5 inch burn tray. Throw on some corn and might even get some snap, crackle and pop.


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## ScotL (Sep 23, 2015)

Michael6268 said:


> Pretty flame??
> You want pretty flames, burn wood or coal.
> Pellets are like looking at a blow torch..
> Judt sayin...LOL


It's the Tim Taylor version of a pretty flame. More power!


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## bogieb (Sep 23, 2015)

Michael6268 said:


> Pretty flame??
> You want pretty flames, burn wood or coal.
> Pellets are like looking at a blow torch..
> Judt sayin...LOL



I happen to like both (have a wood burning background). Heck, I could probably gaze at a blowtorch for an hour or so


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## Michael6268 (Sep 23, 2015)

ScotL said:


> It's the Tim Taylor version of a pretty flame. More power!



Uh, UH, UHHH!!
LOL


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## Pete Zahria (Sep 23, 2015)

bogieb said:


> Maybe because you can't see the pretty flame in an oil burner...



You can't smile watching your grandkids warm up to an oil burner either,
after they've been playing outside..
​


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## velvetfoot (Sep 23, 2015)

I remember when I was in the Army, I saw on a tag on a field jacket that said the wearer shouldn't get too close to a heater for fear of it catching on fire and you not feeling it: at first, lol.  I imagine the scenario they had in mind would be when your back was to the fire.


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## Peterfield (Sep 23, 2015)

Pete Zahria said:


> You can't smile watching your grandkids warm up to an oil burner either,
> after they've been playing outside..
> View attachment 162291​



I just put them on the kitchen stove on a low setting.  They warm right up.


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## bogieb (Sep 25, 2015)

Pete Zahria said:


> You can't smile watching your grandkids warm up to an oil burner either,
> after they've been playing outside..
> View attachment 162291​



Can't blow dry your hair (as I did this morning) or dry clothes on a rack in a normally damp basement (as I did last night). Or cook dinner in a boiler (doing sweet taters tonight). Now if the P61a would just balance my checkbook


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## alternativeheat (Sep 25, 2015)

bogieb said:


> Can't blow dry your hair (as I did this morning) or dry clothes on a rack in a normally damp basement (as I did last night). Or cook dinner in a boiler (doing sweet taters tonight). Now if the P61a would just balance my checkbook


Hey bogieb you continued that baked potato routine we played with last year, cool !! I had forgotten about it. Won't be burning a whole lot of pellets this year but when we do I must remember that . Made some good ones last year in the P61 ! Right now I have 0 pellets and haven't run any heat as yet. last year I think we fired up right about now for round one..


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## moey (Sep 25, 2015)

You could just buy a oil stove and save some money...


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## Pete Zahria (Sep 25, 2015)

Or.... You could just buy a house in Florida and not worry
about oil or pellets...


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## Bioburner (Sep 25, 2015)

Just high electric rates to keep cool and dry.


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## CARL jr (Sep 25, 2015)

Have not payed to heat my house in 15yrs could be a hard pill swallow to pay to heat the house


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## Pete Zahria (Sep 25, 2015)

Bioburner said:


> Just high electric rates to keep cool and dry.


Not even close to us....


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## Brian26 (Sep 25, 2015)

It really makes no sense to burn pellets with current oil prices. At least in CT. 

You can currently get heating oil for $1.65 in the New Haven area. 

Compared to $5.50-6 a bag for pellets....


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## Pete Zahria (Sep 25, 2015)

Brian26 said:


> It really makes no sense to burn pellets with current oil prices. At least in CT.....


Or... If you don't have oil capabilities.


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## bogieb (Sep 26, 2015)

alternativeheat said:


> Hey bogieb you continued that baked potato routine we played with last year, cool !! I had forgotten about it. Won't be burning a whole lot of pellets this year but when we do I must remember that . Made some good ones last year in the P61 ! Right now I have 0 pellets and haven't run any heat as yet. last year I think we fired up right about now for round one..



Yeah, the pellet stove makes much better baked sweet potatoes than the microwave does. I so rarely use my cook stove and I certainly wouldn't start it just to bake the taters. But, since the pellet stove is going anyway, it can multi-task.


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## tonyd (Sep 26, 2015)

Pellets are just like brisket and chicken wings. Once they found out we learned to enjoy a cheaper alternative, they doubled the price. Im back to oil during the day and enjoy the stove in the evening.


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