# Pellet Stove Payback Period?



## ovenovenfire (Jan 13, 2010)

Newbie here....I have a few questions on pellet stove economics. I am a new homeower living in VA. House is new construction, 2100 sf, all electric with two air-source heat pumps (1 downstairs, 1 upstairs). I used to have gas heat before and that was great, you could turn it down at night and warm the house up quickly in the morning and my bill never got to be above $150/month (albeit it was a smaller 1000 sf house). Now, the heat pump worked well in the fall and early winter when temps were in the 30s and 40s at night but now, the heat pump struggles to keep the house at 70 (especially the 2-story great room), the heat strips are kicking in often, especially during the last few weeks when temps got into the teens and single digits. So, far we've consumed 1500 kWh and the month is not half over. 

I have thought about getting a pellet stove to use as a *supplement* to the heat pump when the weather turns cold (not on a regular basis as I don't want to be hauling pellets and cleaning ashes all winter). I had a few friends when living the pacific northwest who loved theirs a few years ago. 

However, after looking at the high cost to buy+install a stove ($3000 for a Quadrafire Santa Fe according to local dealer, or close to $2000 for an Englander model which get mixed reviews), I am wondering whether getting a pellet stove really is a financially sound decision to supplement the heat pump, which is already quite efficient except when it has to run on auxiliary heat.  I wonder if I should instead keep my money and get an electric space heater for those occasional nights when it gets really cold (this year is obviously an exception). 

I've been looking at the Heating Fuel Comparison Calculator by the Dept. of Energy and based on my electric rate (11 cents/kWh), and entering the proper HSPF for the heat pump (6.4 adjusted), the cost per million BTU is $18.54. Wood pellets cost $260 a ton here (not including tax+delivery) and with a stove that gets 85% efficiency that ends up costing $17.23 per MBTU. Adding the delivery charge (around $50 I guess) to the calculation for a ton of pellets cancels out any savings and ends up costing more. It seems pellet prices keep going up and are really just a good alternative if heating with expensive fuels such as oil, propane or straight electric resistance heat (which seems is what most folks who buy pellet stoves switch from). So, according to those figures, a pellet stove will never pay off or it will take many years. 

However, I do wonder if one can save substantial money using a pellet stove by turning down the heat during the day and at night and then "cranking" the stove up to heat the house up fast when you get home or after waking up (the heat pump needs to be left at a set temperature so it always has to keep running). Also, the heat pump keeps the whole house warm when we really just need it in a few rooms (they don't connect so I could not shut off the heat pump entirely). Obviously this would involve running the pellet stove more often/more regularly but I'd be willing to do that if that will save enough money. I estimate that may save around 1000 kWh per month ($100/month) which is about $300 per year (3 cold months, the remaining months will be fine on heat pump alone) so it would take 10 years to pay back the pellet stove. Is my estimate wrong? 

My girlfriend thinks we should forget the stove and stick with a couple of electric space heaters to stay warm on those nights when it gets really cold and keep the money.  We don't want to deal with wood stoves (too much work and mess). The initial outlay is obviously less. I would really like the $2000-3000 outlay for a pellet stove to pay itself back in 4-6 years to be worth the investment. Any opinions? I like the idea of the pellet stove making the house WARM and being eco-friendly but the initial outlay makes me reconsider. Does adding a pellet stove add to the value of a house should I have to sell it?

Does the cost of stoves and pellet drop enough come spring/summer to make the numbers more favorable? 

Any input is appreciated.


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## sammypoodle (Jan 13, 2010)

First off, let me say I really like my pellet insert. The heat, the look, etc. It was a good investment. With that said. I really do not think I save any money using the stove. Sure my oil consumption has fallen alot but it only shifted the fuel usage. Pellet stoves require alot of maintenance, pellet storage etc. That is money in a sense. All and all I think its a wash. I will say we are much warmer and my house is very toasty warm. I have no regrets and really like the stove. As far as saving any money with the purchase, install, buying stacking pellets, cleaning etc. the money saved is very little if any. The pay back period has to be several years if not more for any payback.


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## cac4 (Jan 13, 2010)

well, it doesn't seem like you'd ever get "payback" on a pellet stove, used as you described.  BUT...

those btu comparison calculations--you have to take those with a grain of salt.  Most that I've seen do not take into consideration any loss that will occur between the heating plant and the heat that actually gets into the rooms.  When they say that my oil furnace is "80% efficient"...that is measured at the furnace.  not at the registers in the room.  There is considerable loss between here and there.  The ducts travel through a cold basement, they leak, etc, etc.  I did see a calculator out there that took such factors into consideration, but I can't remember where it was.  But it said that my forced hot air system, with the type of ducts I have, could be as low as 50% efficient.  
so...btu's per lb or per gallon or per kwh x cost per gallon/lb/kwh doesn't tell the whole story.

I don't know too much about heat pumps (not used much up here, as its just too cold most of the time), but I'm assuming that it heats air, and blows it to your rooms through ducts.  there will be "loss" there.  

A pellet stove dumps 100% of the heat it creates into your living space.  no loss.  

You won't be able to quickly heat up a cold house with a pellet stove.  It just doesn't have enough btu output to change the temp that quickly.  It would certainly heat up faster than the heat pump alone, but it won't do it by itself.  (not "quickly".  it will do it, though.)  On the coldest days, (like we just had over the last few), it takes my stove a couple of hours to get the temp up from the low 60's to about 70.  My furnace can do it in a few minutes...(it was broken over the weekend.  go figure).  Once the temp is brought up by the furnace, the stove can maintain it all day;  when you think about it, all it has to do in this case is pump out enough btu's to match the heat load on the house...make up for the loss.  If you're trying to raise the temp in the house, you have to first match the load (or "loss), and then exceed that number, by a significant amount.  

One thing you'll see posted here over and over and over is the reminder that a pellet stove is a "space heater";  its not a good replacement for other types of central heat...but a great adjunct.  You'll also see lots of people saying that oil is cheaper than pellets....well, its not.  not unless you're talking about comparing a pellet furnace/boiler (central heat) to a fossil-fuel furnace/boiler.  I save money using pellets, because I'm not consuming as many btu's.  And I'm not consuming as many btu's, because I'm not heating my basement with my leaky ducts.  I'm not heating my upstairs bedrooms as much, because they are farther away from the stove.  
You can, of course, get that same exact effect w/ electric space heaters.  Maybe for less, where you are.  certainly for alot less buy-in price.  Anyway, its not the fuel that makes it cheaper, so much as the style of heating.  space vs. "central".  

as for the delivery cost, most people overcome that by buying their whole season's fuel supply at once.  You need to have the storage space for that, though...

anyway, I'd say that if your motivation is purely economic, a pellet stove is probably not your best bet.  But they are just plain "nice"...toasty warm when you're near them, and a greener method of heating than electric space heaters.  There's a lot to weigh.


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## Fsappo (Jan 13, 2010)

The payback is more than several years on paper.  What you do need to consider is the cost savings of space heating vs house heating.  If you could put a nice pellet stove (dont waste money on a cheap one at this point, especially with the tax credit to fool with) in for 3K and use it to warm up that large 2 story great room without having to run the electric, you may be saving more.  Here's the other thing (Note, I am promoting a stove I sell, but I dont sell in the OPs area)

There is a pellet stove called the Europa which uses gasification.  It will provide the same heat as a typical pellet stove but it requires 30-40% less fuel to accomplish that.  So right off the top, our customers up here in NY that have Europas are using 1-3 tons less fuel per year than someone with a typical stove.  So if pellets=oil and Europa is .65 cost to operate, the Europa is .35 cheaper than oil.  More or less thats the easy math.  The kicker is, those stoves run $4400-4900.

There may be other 95% efficient biomass stoves (Heat exchanger efficiency using the lower heat value) on the market.  If you find one, I would look at that as well.  I just dont know of any.  If you have questions you can PM me at fsappo@firesidechatts.com   I'll try to put you in touch with someone in your area if your interested.


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## Excell (Jan 13, 2010)

I would consider a multi fuel so that you can burn any kind of pellets that you can find ,maybe even some corn . I find my pellet stove very fussy about what kind of pellets that I burn . From what I have read on this site the multi fuels do not have that  problem .


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## tjnamtiw (Jan 13, 2010)

First off, seek out the fool that talked you into heat pumps in Virginia!!  Their efficiency goes to crap at about 40F.  When you are using the cost comparison, plug in 100% efficiency for the heat pump since your using the strip heaters.  You are NOT getting heat pump efficiency!  I live in Georgia,a nd heat pumps down here this winter have been useless the last three weeks.  I can imagine in VA>  Now compare savings.  It will look a lot better.  I have two Quads and they just barely keep up when it's 15 and windy outside.  
I know it's too late but you should have gotten a dual fuel heat pump (me too) or geothermal.
If you have coal available in your area, you can get coal stoves that look and work like pellet stoves ----- unless you're a tree hugger...


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## jtakeman (Jan 13, 2010)

Excell said:
			
		

> I would consider a multi fuel so that you can burn any kind of pellets that you can find ,maybe even some corn . I find my pellet stove very fussy about what kind of pellets that I burn . From what I have read on this site the multi fuels do not have that  problem .



X2 Excell has been paying attention!

Most large purchase's you would like to see a 5 to 10 year payback. I save about $1000 dollars a year give or take! Shorter if you add the AHHHH factor of being warmer all the time! We would keeped the electric at 65ºF and the pellet heat is a steady 72ºF


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## ovenovenfire (Jan 13, 2010)

cac4 said:
			
		

> A pellet stove dumps 100% of the heat it creates into your living space.  no loss.



As far as I understand pellet stoves, some of the heat has to go out the vent pipe. That is not 100% efficient. From what I read, they're around 75-85% efficient...


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## trogers (Jan 13, 2010)

My stove is on track to pay for itself in 2.5 years.  I was using propane, which is very expensive.  We are a lot warmer thatn we were when we were using the propane FHA, and we are spending  about $1600 (net) a year less in fuel costs.  Regarding the point about maintenance time being a cost, I guess that I agree to some extent, but I would question wether we apply that same logic to everything in out lives.  As an example, I can have my groceries delivered for a small cost to "save" me from having to o to the supermarket.  Yes, if I was billing myself for the same hourly rate that I earn in my profession I would be stupid not to have the groceries delivered.  The reality, however, is that I can not "charge" myself my hourly rate for doing chores.  Yes, the stove does take some time each week to maintain, but so does the yard need time to maintain, or the driveway need time to shovel. For me it was an easy decision...be a lot warmer and have a fuel source that I can be happy with.  A bonus factor for considering a pellet stove in my opinion is the fact that the fuel is relativiely carbon neutral.  

Anyway, just my opinion.


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## cac4 (Jan 13, 2010)

ovenovenfire said:
			
		

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Correct, but I'm talking about something different.  

What I am talking about is the amount of the "usable" heat that actually gets into the rooms.  When people are talking about furnace or boiler efficiencies, they're talking about how much heat is extracted from the fuel;  not all of that heat actually gets to the rooms.  I'm sure there are terms for these 2 different concepts, but I don't know what they are.  I'll call them "burner efficiency", and "delivery system efficiency".  

"burner efficiency" is the amount of heat in the fire - amount that goes up the chimney.  In that sense, pellet stoves and oil furnaces are about the same.  But with my oil furnace, some of the heat radiates into the basement.  Then, every time there is a transfer of energy, some is lost.  Hot air furnaces are better than boilers on this front, as the heat isn't transfered as many times as it is with a hot water system.  But there is still a transfer.  The fire heats the plenum; the plenum heats air.  (loss--loss).  with a boiler, the fire heats the tank, which heats the water, which heats pipes, which heat fins, which heat the air.  (loss loss loss loss loss ;-)
On top of this, there is loss as the heated air or water travels....by the time it gets to where its going, heat is given off in places that you don't want or need to be heated.  In my case, the ducts absorb heat...its radiated out in the wall spaces where the ducts go, and heated air leaks out in those wall cavities and in the basement.  
With the pellet stove, all of the usable heat is dumped right into the room where you're sitting.  the only loss in transfer is the amount lost from the fire heating the heat exhanger, and the heat exchanger heating the air that passes over it.  It is basically, a hot air furnace, with no ducts.  (and therefore, no duct loss).


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## BadDad320 (Jan 13, 2010)

Being able to purchase all the fuel I need to heat my house at one time gives me security over fluctuating energy prices..... I burn about 6 tons of pellets per year...... I have a shed and buy and store them when I find a good deal...... I still use about 250-300 gallons of HHO per year.....


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## MCPO (Jan 13, 2010)

ovenovenfire said:
			
		

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Most probably fall into the 78% brackett.
 Thats why I`ve harped so much regarding the heat exchanger itself being where the most important improvement can be made.
 The manufacturers should be doing more in this area.


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## MCPO (Jan 13, 2010)

Personally I haven`t been inclined to spend  heavily on a simple space heater that isn`t worth zilch to resell once it leaves the store and even less when used.  IMO, it `s a bigger loser than a new automobile.  Not that I`m cheap but I have a rather good central heating system and the oil burner tech tells me the burner data he measured reads 84% efficiency. 
 So having bought my used Harman for $500 and my new Englander for $490 after tax credit I`m not a bit concerned about any ROI or the length of payback period. I do like the pellet heat looks / ambience and direct heat from it, reminiscient of my former wood stove but a lot less work and much safer. 
 Whatever Pellets I use offsets the less oil I burn so its kind of a wash. And yes there are some unusually good buys out there on pellet stoves new and used. remember, any one can pay full retail price. Anything can be had if you want to pay the full boat.
 But that`s just how I feel. I certainly wouldn`t expect everyone to agree.


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## Doocrew (Jan 13, 2010)

I look at it differently. I think my stove paid for itself in the first year. I bought my stove because I received my oil pre-buy contract for the 2008-2009 heating season and it was $3200 for 800 gallons. Like everyone else, I said no way and bought my pellet stove for $2000 and 4 ton of pellets at $239 a ton. I ended up burning 100 gallons of oil all winter to heat the hot water. Granted, oil came down as the season progressed so had I chosen to stay with oil and not participated in pre-buy, my total heating cost for the season would have been about $2500. I have never not pre-bought oil so like a sap, I probably would have done so had I not developed a mild case of pellet flu. The way I see it, the stove paid for itself in the first year.  Pre-buy costs this year were around 2.50 a gallon so I would have spent $2500 on oil. I bought 4 ton of pellets this year at $230 a ton, plus I will burn 100 gallons of oil which cost $2.39 a gallon. My heating costs for this year will be about $1200 which is about a 50% savings. Either way, the stove would have paid for itself in 2 years depending on which way you look at it.


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## peterpski666 (Jan 14, 2010)

Doocrew said:
			
		

> I look at it differently. I think my stove paid for itself in the first year. I bought my stove because I received my oil pre-buy contract for the 2008-2009 heating season and it was $3200 for 800 gallons. Like everyone else, I said no way and bought my pellet stove for $2000 and 4 ton of pellets at $239 a ton. I ended up burning 100 gallons of oil all winter to heat the hot water. Granted, oil came down as the season progressed so had I chosen to stay with oil and not participated in pre-buy, my total heating cost for the season would have been about $2500. I have never not pre-bought oil so like a sap, I probably would have done so had I not developed a mild case of pellet flu. The way I see it, the stove paid for itself in the first year.  Pre-buy costs this year were around 2.50 a gallon so I would have spent $2500 on oil. I bought 4 ton of pellets this year at $230 a ton, plus I will burn 100 gallons of oil which cost $2.39 a gallon. My heating costs for this year will be about $1200 which is about a 50% savings. Either way, the stove would have paid for itself in 2 years depending on which way you look at it.




Exactly the same usage and expenses I have, heating comfortably a 1700 sf colonial.


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## Skippydo (Jan 14, 2010)

Heating whole house with Harman PF100,2500SF plus, used 7 ton last year
at a cost of $1575.00 (No tax)...Propane would have cost me $3200.00.
This year my pellets were $1560 for 8 ton.  That has cut my propane bill
in half again.  
Give me one more year, and stove has paid for itself.
As far as cleaning the stove; you won't find me outside in the snow and
blistering wind......Take my time cleaning the stove, and you can even
make it enjoyable, especially with a brew  besides you.  It usually takes
me two brews to clean the stove......


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## krooser (Jan 14, 2010)

I live in a drafty, marginally insulated 120 year old wood frame home with a forced air NG furnace. I bought a used stove for $1100.00, spent around $150.00 on a vent kit and installed it myself. 

The last year (2006) relied solely on NG I spent somewhere north of $1200.00 for NG from October until April 1st. Lats year I spent $720.00 on pellets....+ or -. With NG we had to keep the heat at 65F in order to keep it affordable. My house, tonite, with temps in the high teens is 76F. I would never voluntarilt go back... I'm warm and spoiled.

Maintenance is pretty simple... keep the stove clean, pour in some pellets and enjoy. The stove will have good resale value for several years. Save $$$ and install it yourself... pretty easy if you do a simple horizontal vent.

All those numbers you have been crunching make my head hurt... I bought the stove to stay warm... the $$$ it's saving me is a bonus...


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## ovenovenfire (Jan 14, 2010)

Thanks for the detailed responses. 

As I figured, most people who have the biggest savings with a pellet stove use propane, electric baseboards or oil for heating. If that were my case, I'd get the stove right away. Most people around here have heat pumps or gas heat or wood stoves and have not even heard of pellet stoves and look at me as if I'm from Mars so it appears they are more useful in colder climates.

Having a heat pump (mine is brand new and in response to FHS, modern heat pumps are quite efficient even down to the 20s, provided the house is well insulated, I asked several HVAC contractors. But yes, a geothermal is a lot better) and adding a stove is kind of a wash. I guess I'm shocked as before I lived mostly in apartments or small rental houses and bills were never this steep. I guess the two-fold increase in square footage with respect to my old rental house does mean double the bills. As I see it, a pellet stove may save $100-150 on electric each month during December-February (looking at my electric bills and comparing how much the bill jumped since it got cold in December) but that is about the cost of 1.5 tons of pellets. 

According to the pellet price tracker on this site, pellets in VA don't seem to come down in price, I see reports from June and August in the $250-range per ton. I do like the idea of the warmth of a fire and being eco-friendly but sadly that's not worth $3000 for me, at least now. 

How wise is it to put in a used stove? Being a novice I'd hate to buy a lemon or get ripped off from someone on craigslist. 

Do stoves get cheaper in the summer or is that a myth?


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## caledoniacars (Jan 14, 2010)

Another former propane user here.  I figured I saved about $1000 my first year. This year with cheaper propane I figure it'll be less maybe $500-$800.  However if this mild winter continues I may have pellets left over for next year.  The warmer heat makes up for the cleaning.  All in all I figure 3 years and both the furnace & installation will be paid for.


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## becasunshine (Jan 14, 2010)

Hi, OvenOven!

We are right over the ridge from you in Central Va!  Beautiful part of the state in the valley.    

Our central heat furnace burns natural gas.  We have a Napoleon NPS40 freestanding pellet stove.  We bought it new, paid to have it professionally installed, and we have a custom made tile hearth under it.  Total cost for stove, vent pipes, hearth pad, outside air kit (OAK), the thimble thingy that goes through the wall, and installation was $3400.

You are right about pellet prices in VA.  The best we've seen is $240/ton direct from the factory, you haul, one ton minimum.  This year we paid $280/ton delivered.

Given the current prices of natural gas, pellets and the cost of electricity to run the stove (which is minimal but not nonexistent) I'd say that we are perhaps saving a couple hundred dollars a year.  At this rate it will probably take us about 15 years to pay off the pellet stove.  Would this pellet stove even be in service in 15 years? I don't know.

However, and this is a BIG however, the pellet stove does give us the following advantages:

1.  In order to achieve our previous super-frugal natural gas heating bills, we kept the house at 65'F during the day and 55'F overnight.  Now we keep the HVAC thermostat at 65'F during the day and 60'F overnight.  The pellet stove can hold the house at 65'F during the day without assistance from the gas furnace on all but the coldest days.  The gas furnace will cut in early in the morning and perhaps once again later that evening when the outside temps drop into the very low twenties or into the teens.  We've never had the gas furnace cut in overnight- the pellet stove has held the household temp above 60'F during the coldest nights unassisted by the furnace.

If the outside temps are in the 30's the pellet stove holds our house well above 65'F without assistance from the gas furnace.

2. Late summer/early fall 2008, as we were researching pellet stoves, our natural gas "budget" bill amount increased by a whopping $37/month, even though we actually used less gas in the previous year than we'd been budgeted to use.  

3. Pellet prices fluctuate also, but at least we can bulk buy pellets if we find a price that we like.  We can also shop the pellet market and ask for competitive pricing.  

4. It's 10pm and I know where my heat is for the rest of the year.

5. Many people use pellet stoves as zone heat.  Our house is small enough (1248 sq ft) and the stove is located such that we use it to heat the entire house.  Zone heating, if we used it that way, would probably save us more money.  Our floorplan doesn't lend itself to that usage so we simply push the heat through the house with a box fan.

I don't know what the future holds for either natural gas prices or pellet prices.  We like having a couple of different heating options.  In this way, if the price of natural gas shoots up, we have an alternative.


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## slclem (Jan 14, 2010)

Chuck...how do you like your Accentra and how much do you heat with it?


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## Stentor (Jan 14, 2010)

Ovenovenfire,

I think the comments by everyone on your choices are thoughtful and can help you make your decision.  A few minor items:

1.  Because your intended use of a pellet stove will be intermittent, you will be adding to your payback time.
2.  With a new house, you can probably make some easy incremental improvements in energy efficiency, like weatherstripping, new light bulbs, etc., whatever your long term plans. 
3.  Our house is more comfortable with the stove. That's subjective but we can keep the place warmer, maybe 5 °F on average.
4.  Social and environmental issues are worth at least considering, whether or not they are decisive for you.

We are happy with our choice so far and expect break even on the investment in about two more seasons.


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## mainegeek (Jan 14, 2010)

I think my stove will pay for itself in about 3 years.  My budget oil payment was $450 ($4950/yr) before and is now $150 ($1650/yr).  I still have more insulating to do; which will help.  All in all, I can heat the majority of my house on about 5 tons of pellets a year ($1400/yr).  I think the math is obvious

BTW, I say "majority" of house because the stove does little to heat the upstairs.... the oil stat is set to a constant 65 deg F up there since its all bedrooms.


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## cac4 (Jan 14, 2010)

slclem said:
			
		

> Chuck...how do you like your Accentra and how much do you heat with it?



Love it!

My house is a 24'x36' garrison colonial, built in 1994, with 6" walls.  1800sq ft if you measure from the outside dimensions...more like 1600 if you measure the interior room sizes.  open floor plan on the first floor; 3 bedrooms upstairs.  
The stove is capable of heating the entire house, and it does, most of the time.  I've taken to letting the oil furnace run in the morning for a little while, just to keep the basement from getting too cold...although, the furnace crapped out over the weekend, and we had 0-degree weather...no problems.  Last oil fill-up was in November of '08, and I still have half a tank.


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## ronlat (Jan 14, 2010)

ovenovenfire said:
			
		

> Newbie here....I have a few questions on pellet stove economics. I am a new homeower living in VA. House is new construction, 2100 sf, all electric with two air-source heat pumps (1 downstairs, 1 upstairs).... Now, the heat pump worked well in the fall and early winter when temps were in the 30s and 40s at night but now, the heat pump struggles to keep the house at 70 (especially the 2-story great room), the heat strips are kicking in often, especially during the last few weeks when temps got into the teens and single digits. So, far we've consumed 1500 kWh and the month is not half over.
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> For me, 2 1/2 years burning pellets  compared to fuel oil has saved nearly $1900.00.  Initial investment of $2700.00  Yes extra work is involved but it amounts to less than 15 min per day on average,
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For me, 2 1/2 years burning pellets  compared to fuel oil has saved nearly $1900.00.  Initial investment of $2700.00  Yes extra work is involved but it amounts to less than 15 min per day on average.

You stated you do not want to haul pellets and deal with cleaning, and furthermore your girlfriend does not want one.  Sounds to me that a pellet stove should not be in your future if you want to maintain the benefits of the girlfriend, haha.


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## gglater (Jan 14, 2010)

cac4 said:
			
		

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electric bill for Dec 2009:  $196.38

electric bill for Dec 2008:  $585.87

cost of pellets burned:  34 bags @ $5.40/bag:  5.4 * 34= $183.6

Total cost of elec + heat for Dec 200= $379.98

Savings over last year:  $205.89

Cost of Stove = ~$4300 - 30% tax credit = $3010

$3010 - 205.89 = ($2804.11) ROI


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## gglater (Jan 14, 2010)

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My house is almost the same size as described above (1407 square feet garrison colonial) located about 20 miles west of Boston, MA.  We have a Lopi Yankee Bay that heats the whole house (installed Nov 2009).

We just got through our first full month of using the stove instead of the ELECTRIC heat.  Here is the number crunching that I did (back of envelope type...)

electric bill for Dec 2009:  $196.38 (with stove)

electric bill for Dec 2008:  $585.87 (pre stove)

cost of pellets burned:  34 bags @ $5.40/bag:  5.4 * 34= $183.60

Total cost of elec + heat for Dec 2010= $379.98

Savings over last year:  $205.89

Cost of Stove = ~$4300 - 30% tax credit = $3010

$3010 - 205.89 = ($2804.11) ROI


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## cac4 (Jan 14, 2010)

well..I don't understand your ROI calculation, but if you ask me...you're saving ~200/month on heat, for a 6 month heating season, thats 1200/year and thats "payback" in <3.  

I won't see that, w/ pellets vs. oil...then again, we won't know until it happens.  oil being so variable, its really impossible to say "exactly".  but when I bought my stove, oil was >$4/gallon, and at that rate, I'd have had a 2 year payback.  as it stands now...maybe 5 years ?  I'm replacing 600gallons of oil, with about 3 tons of pellets...plus a little oil.


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## gglater (Jan 15, 2010)

my ROI number was simply this:

Cost of stove - tax credit - (Dec 2008 elect. cost - (Dec 2009 elect. cost + Dec 2009 pellets used cost)) = amount I paid for the stove that I haven't recovered as savings yet.

At least I think that's what I did.

And where I said 2010 in my earlier posting, I meant 2009.

--glen


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## ablejoy (Jan 16, 2010)

Second season using our stove, first season last year we cut propane  usage in half. propane went from $1.90 a gallon in November 2009 to $2.50 a gallon this month. We like the heat were able to afford with the stove we keep the main part of our house at 72 degrees with propane never got over 65 degrees during the day. Last year used 2 tons from Oct -early April. I just add bag number 68, cost $186.00 so far propane maybe $50.00 or so. Propane as high as $2.80 a gallon 2009. I figure were saving about $1000.00 a year on propane.


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## Ken45 (Jan 16, 2010)

> A pellet stove dumps 100% of the heat it creates into your living space.  no loss.



Hold your hand over the outside exhaust pipe and tell me that all the heat went into the living space  :roll: 

You are right, a pellet stove heats the area it's in and there is no loss in "transporting" the heat as long as you want the heat in the room the stove is in.  Of course, that "lost" heat from the ducts does heat the house to a certain extent.

We only use ours on a very low setting to add a bit of heat to the living room in the evening.  It's room heater, not a very efficient house heater.

For the situation that you are in with a heat pump and cold nights, you might consider an unvented gas (propane) stove.  They are 99.9% efficient, all the heat remains in the house.  They are a lot less expensive than a pellet stove to purchase and install.

In 1999, we built a new two story 3000 sf home.   First winter (it was cold), we heated with the central propane furnace.  It cost us over $3000 that winter.   The next winter, (which was not as cold), we heated exclusively with an unvented propane fireplace.  It cost us $400 to heat the house.

We are now in a smaller home, primarily heating with wood.  We tried a pellet stove and were not warm or happy.  Wood is the best, in our opinion.   The heat pump is used when it's above 50 degrees.

Ken


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## cac4 (Jan 16, 2010)

Ken45 said:
			
		

> > A pellet stove dumps 100% of the heat it creates into your living space.  no loss.
> 
> 
> 
> Hold your hand over the outside exhaust pipe and tell me that all the heat went into the living space  :roll:



I meant "useable" heat.  please don't take my comments out of context.  



			
				Ken45 said:
			
		

> It's room heater, not a very efficient house heater.



It  IS a very efficient house heater, in the right house.  MY house stays quite comfortable, and I consume 25% less energy (btu's) doing it this way.  
It may be impractical in your application;  that doesn't make it "inefficient".


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## QuadraBurner (Jan 16, 2010)

My stove paid for itself when the wife told me it was actually too hot in our house, and I had to turn the stove down.  For the record, my stove easily heats my entire house (1800 sqft, two floors).  Like others have said though, it depends on the house.  I keep the thermostat on 73 or 74 in my house, which is fairly open, but my buddy who also has an AE needs to keep his at 78 to get enough heat to all of the rooms in his house.  As with anything, your mileage may vary.

As for actual payback, which is what the OP was looking for, I think I will be ahead slightly this year but not much.  What I do have going for me though is a WARM house, and options.  If oil goes up like it did last year I will see the payback much quicker.  On the other hand, if pellets skyrocketed for some reason, I can go back to oil.


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## gutterboy2ca (Jan 16, 2010)

ovenovenfire, don,t hesitate on purchasing a good used stove if you run across one,when i bought in Oct of 08, there were no stoves to be had,all dealers were sold out till Feb 09,so i bought a 10 year old Enviro, was there in shop demo,stamped july/99.I was kinda scared to buy it, but already bought a ton of Pellets before finding a stove.They offered me 1 year factory warranty, which made the deal for me $1300 for a $2895 stove, I did End up putting in a new Timer switch for $80(not warrantied) and the Blower fan started to squeal(they gave me a new one) $250,so i haven,t regretted it at all.As for savings here in Eastern canada, only been about $400/season or 1 month Electric Bill, so 3 years should just about equal out what we paid for it..


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## THE ROOSTER (Jan 16, 2010)

tjnamtiw said:
			
		

> First off, seek out the fool that talked you into heat pumps in Virginia!!  Their efficiency goes to crap at about 40F.  When you are using the cost comparison, plug in 100% efficiency for the heat pump since your using the strip heaters.  You are NOT getting heat pump efficiency!  I live in Georgia,a nd heat pumps down here this winter have been useless the last three weeks.  I can imagine in VA>



Don't know the age of your heat pump(s) but I too have heat pumps but in Central Kentucky and love them... I have two Carrier Infinity heat pumps ( efficent to 5*F) installed in Nov 07 and only once have I seen the computer shut them off and go strictly to heat strips... Not much difference in KY. and Va. if you ask me, what I would ask is how much do you pay for a Kilowatt of electricity??? Here KU charges $.05/kil and after all BS taxes are included it is $.07/kil


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## MCPO (Jan 16, 2010)

THE ROOSTER said:
			
		

> tjnamtiw said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Lucky guy you are! Where I`m at it`s closer to .18 KWHR.


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## ovenovenfire (Jan 17, 2010)

my heat pumps are 6 months old (American Standard, I forget what model) but are only 13 SEER / 7.7 HSPF which is on the lower end of the efficiency scale so once it goes below 20-25 outside, the air blowing out of the ducts drops to the upper 70s and that barely keeps the house warm. I have reprogrammed my thermostat to not use the auxiliary (heat strips) heat unless the temperature drops 4 degrees below the setpoint to save money. Otherwise I noticed the emergency heat was kicking in all the time. It was quite chilly in the house (around 65) and it was bearable with a couple of space heaters during the recent cold snap.  However, the upstairs of the house stayed comfortable; it was the downstairs that was cold (go figure).

My rate is 11 cents/kWh with taxes and all so that's why I was wondering about the payback. I guess I should not complain too much, at the current rate my electric bill for the month is going to be about $250, up from $190 last month (Dec) and 100 in October when the heating or cooling was hardly used. So heating the house is costing $100-150 extra per month during the months of Nov-March. Now that the bad cold is over I think I'll wait before I plop down the cash for a stove but I do think I may make the leap next year as there is talk that electric rates will go up. 

I'll look into a ventless propane heater. Doesn't that make a sticky residue all over the house because the fumes are not vented outside? I regret not buying a house within city limits. We had natural gas last year and it was warm!


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## tjnamtiw (Jan 17, 2010)

THE ROOSTER said:
			
		

> [
> 
> Don't know the age of your heat pump(s) but I too have heat pumps but in Central Kentucky and love them... I have two Carrier Infinity heat pumps ( efficent to 5*F) installed in Nov 07 and only once have I seen the computer shut them off and go strictly to heat strips... Not much difference in KY. and Va. if you ask me, what I would ask is how much do you pay for a Kilowatt of electricity??? Here KU charges $.05/kil and after all BS taxes are included it is $.07/kil



First, there's no sense getting into a verbal argument about efficiencies but............... I have 14.5 SEER 8.5 HSPF (?) heat pumps and I can fart hotter air than they put out at 32 degrees.  5 degrees with no heat strips is fantasy.  My total charge is $0.13 per KWH.   Google all day and you won't find anything except geothermal that performs at 5 degrees.  If it does, I'm changing!!


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## THE ROOSTER (Jan 17, 2010)

tjnamtiw said:
			
		

> THE ROOSTER said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My 3.5 ton Carrier Infinity 19 SEER, has a 3 stage heat strip system, and is efficient to 5* I didn't say 100%, and I heat/cool 3200 square feet, and my electric bills are 149.00 or less... I would seriously be considering a new heat pump if at 32* yours is putting out cold air, heck I don't even consider firing up my Harman until we go into the 20's...Post pictures when your new heat pump is  installed 

OH, parents have geothermal, I'm always 20-30 bucks cheaper every bill in the winter, and he beats me close to the same amount in the summer...

One last thing, SEER I thought only delt with cooling... It's been a while since I read up on this so I might be mistaken


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## Trickyrick (Jan 17, 2010)

Just put in a Harmon Accentra insert in in Nov.  Total cost was $4380- 1500 rebate = 2880  Wife likes the looks and I wanted a pellet stove I got my choice of 1 option.

So November 09 electric bill came in at $199.07.  November 08 electric bill was $396. If I used todays electric rates and last years usage it woudl have been $409
November 09 burned 19 bags of pellets at $5.00 per bag or ($95)


Total bill 2008 = $409  Total bill 2009 = $294.  Savings = $115.

If the ratio stays the same through the rest of the heating season I should save between $600 and $800 per year depending on actual temperatures.

If I use and average of 700 the I have a 4.1 year payback.  While this is not normally acceptable.  I can also add in the comfort level of the in the new house temp of 72-74 depending on where in the house you are VS the old temp of 68 and always hearing the complaining about he house being too cold.

That being the case where the temps drop below about 15* the pellet stove can hold the temp well but you can not expect a 35,000 to 60,000 BTU appliance to raise temperature the same way your 140,000 BTU heating system can do it today.  I have found that while I chock the stove back 3 to 4 degrees when I'm not home anyhting more than that creates an unacceptable lag period that causes the wife to "turn up the heat" which defeats the purpose of the stove...

You need to start with figuring out how much heat you need in your home.  With electric it was easy for me because I calculated average BTU usage based on my last 3 years heating bill.  Then from there you can make an intelligent estimate of how many BTUs you need and then double it.  that is a good starting point for stoves.  I needed 23,000 so I got a stove that burns 40,000.  Yes I know the output to the house at full out is only 35 ish but I have yet to actually let the stove run at that level...  Based on my usage my worst day this year was just under 80 pounds of pellets (2 bags) which is what, burning 26-27K BTU per hour.  That was a day of -4 plus 30 MPH wind at night and 10 with wind all day....  It took over two hours to recover back to 73 when I got home from 69.


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## tjnamtiw (Jan 17, 2010)

THE ROOSTER said:
			
		

> [
> My 3.5 ton Carrier Infinity 19 SEER, has a 3 stage heat strip system, and is efficient to 5* I didn't say 100%, and I heat/cool 3200 square feet, and my electric bills are 149.00 or less... I would seriously be considering a new heat pump if at 32* yours is putting out cold air, heck I don't even consider firing up my Harman until we go into the 20's...Post pictures when your new heat pump is  installed
> 
> OH, parents have geothermal, I'm always 20-30 bucks cheaper every bill in the winter, and he beats me close to the same amount in the summer...
> ...



Yes, SEER is strictly cooling.  It's the HSPF (or something like that that concerns heating).  With your extremely low electric cost (Obama's Cap and Trade will take care of that), you can afford to use the heat strips.  19 SEER is awesome but out of my budget.  If it is efficient down to 5 degrees, why are you using a pellet stove at all?  $149 electric bill for a 3200 sq ft house is amazing.  I use more than that for my refrigerators, cooking range, clothes dryer, and water heater!  I would guess you have natural gas for everything else (not available in my rural neighborhood).  How much did that heat pump cost, just out of curiosity?  5 degrees with no heat strips on - still amazing to me.


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## webbie (Jan 17, 2010)

In the old days we used COP. That figures gave you the approx. number of times greater than the electric in - that went out in BTU.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_performance

Here in northern climes, heat pumps are almost non-existent. We just went about 10 days with temps below freezing, often quite far. Besides that, we pay about 16-17 cents per KWH. Natural gas tends to be the cheapest fossil fuel in these parts.


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## tjnamtiw (Jan 17, 2010)

Yea, you're right, Craig.  COP is a clearer way of looking at it for me.  A COP of 3 means it is 300% more efficient than resistance heaters.  That COP drops as the outside temperature drops until, in most cases, at about freezing, the COP is 1, which as you say will kill you if your electric rates are high.  That Carrier unit must be something really special and the house must be super insulated unlike the 'redneck' built homes down south where I live.


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## agrossm (Jan 17, 2010)

This post intrigued me, so I just ran some rough numbers using this calculator:

www.eia.doe.gov/neic/experts/heatcalc.xls

I only calculated my first floor system, I contracted 1000gals of propane at $1.45 and my electricty rate is $.11/kwh.  

Heat Pump @ 8 HPSF                     = $14.59/MBTU
80% Furnace                                        = $20.35/MBTU
Pellet Stove @ 78% $250/ton = $19.43/MBTU

I usually only fire up the stove when I'm on my LP Furnace below 38* OAT.  So, it looks like I'm not saving a whole lot of money, but the 1st flr being so warm is priceless.  Plus, the stove puts my wife to sleep on the couch so I get to watch whatever I want to on TV. ;-)

As an aside, the LP Company came to fill the tank again last week, my wife happened to be home and said they weren't here nearly as long as they usually are.  Haven't gotten the invoice as of yet, but from Sept. to Dec. the tank went from 80% to about 68%.  I know its not an accurate reading but consider I have a 1000gal tank so that's only about 120gals.  WOW!  Years past, before the heat pump and stove, we were at  1000gals/year including domestic hot water.


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## ovenovenfire (Jan 17, 2010)

some people have mentioned storage of pellets. I don't have a big shed and it's already full with garden tools. My basement while big enough, however it is a little damp (musty smell and you sometimes get a small puddle when it rains very hard), especially in the summer. Would this be an issue? Would it be OK to just store the pellets on a pallet or would I have to plop down money and electricity for a dehumidifer?


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## Trickyrick (Jan 17, 2010)

Garage works well for storage.  The bags of pellets are NOT waterproof.  Some even have micro holes in them.  They do eventually reach equilibrium with their surroundings.  I woudl say standing water is a BAD thing.

It sounds like to me there are more efficient ways to gain savings with your money.  Standing water ina basement is a no-no.  If you have that after a rain storm then there are issues there that need to be adressed.

I can't help but wonder if your $3,000 might be better invested in efficiency, (read insulation/windows/doors) first.  One of the things that many new pellet users forget is that we are heating up a space.  If we just let the hot air out then what is the use.  I have found that unless your up to 2X6 wall with R-24 and a celling with R50 and Floor with at least R30 ten you will get a better return on investment in insulating than just about anythign else (except perhaps replacing a 30 year old furnace).

Again the best way to figure this out is to measure the insulation and to record your energy usage.

I do so love my stove, and woudln't trade it for any other heat source for the house.


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## gglater (Feb 11, 2010)

Update with January's numbers...

electric bill for Jan 2010:   $188.59

electric bill for Jan 2009:   $650.71


cost of pellets burned:  37 bags @ $5.40/bag:  5.4 * 37= $199.80

Total cost of elec + heat for Jan 2010= $388.39


Savings over last year:  $262.32


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## Estarrio (Feb 12, 2010)

I bought my house in 2007.  It is a split level with a finished basement.  However, the oil furnace is only rigged to heat the upstairs.  The previous owners had placed an electric stove on a nice hearth pad in the unfinished basement.  I quickly learned that the electric stove did nothing and ran out and bought a pellet stove.  

Unfortunately, I'll never know what my oil usage would have been.  Either way, it wouldn't have kept my downstairs warm.

I grew up with woodstoves, so for me the ambiance of a fire compensates for the hassle of moving/storing pellets and cleaning the stove.  Beats messing with six cords of wood per season and scrounging for brush in the winter.  

My guess is that my pellet stove would have paid for itself if oil prices remained relatively high after five years or so.  I added a second insert this year, so that likely negates the financial ROI.

However, I'm comfortable and I don't have to deal with the oil company.  I'm very happy with my decision to go with pellet heat.  I just wish I would have bought an Enviro insert instead of a St Croix.  Perhaps I'll get all the kinks worked out.


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## terryjd98 (Feb 12, 2010)

I bought a floor model never used, burned in Enviro Evolution in the late summer of 2008 when oil prices were so high and my projected heating cost using oil would be $4,500.00. Stove plus pipe, thimble was total cost of $2800.00. 3 tons of pellets $819.00.  I planned to do the install myself.  Had some unexpected health problems and never got the install done. The usual amount I spend on oil for a season is between $2500 to $3000.00 to heat my old house with a 10 year old additon total of about 1800 sq ft. 2 story.  Just depending how cold of winter we have up here.
 So now all better I finally got the stove installed, Building inspecter Wett inspected on Jan. 27th 2010.  All I can say is WOW. What a great heat. Not as good as the woodstove I grew up with on the farm but sure does take the dampness out of the house better then oil. Heats the room its in around to 74 -78 degrees with outside night temps around 0F daytime 20s,  stove on 3 out of 5, one night had to use 4 setting. Downstairs stays around 68 to 70, Upstairs stay around 68, 66 if wind is blowing hard. basement which is not used for living use around 40. 
 Up to this point this year I had used $900.00 in oil. Since I have started the Pellet stove the only time the furnace has came on is when I shut the stove off for an hour then do a cleaning. Have furnace thermostat set at 50, its just a backup now to pellet stove. I never expected stove to heat whole house but it is and only on a 3 setting. 
 So from what friends have told me, what I have read on here, the pellets I have used so far for the temps I figure 4 tons for the heating season plus a little bit maybe. So say $1100.00 for pellets, $400.00 for oil at most, so $1,500.00 a year. The low for oil I pay now a year $2500.00 - $1500.00 = $1,000.00.  This would work out to a payback for the stove and pipe at 3 years, 4 at the most. Even if I used 5 tons of pellets then I would have used more oil without the Pellet stove so savings are still going to average $1000.00. 
 Like most on here is sounds like depending on your ceremstances on how fast your payback will be. I think the fastest paybacks are in older drafty houses which are real killers on central heating systems. Or maybe the farther north a person is the faster the payback. Also dpends what you heat with in the first place to be able to cmpare costs.
 I can just say for sure I love my pellet stove, payback should be fast enough to suite me and the dampness that is out of the house is great and I dont mind that little bit of work.


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## DBCOOPER (Feb 15, 2010)

tjnamtiw said:
			
		

> First off, seek out the fool that talked you into heat pumps in Virginia!!  ...



I'm in Pa. Have a 10 yr old heat pump, 2.5 ton heating about 1300 sf and it does a pretty good job down to about 25 degrees.


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## jtakeman (Feb 15, 2010)

Electric is really high in CT. I save about $200.00 a month on heat minimum for Dec, Jan. and Feb. Pellet cost included. Average electric bill was $580 and Electric only(no heat) is $120.00.
I bought my first stove used for $800 and paid it off the first year. Burned it for 8 years with no major repairs needed. I have saved on average about $1000.00 total each year for 7 years. I am way a head of the game. My Omega was basically free because of the total savings so far. And I think the furnace I will get next is also paid for in advance. 

It all depends on your circumstance's and what other fuel you are up against. Natural gas is the closest(besides wood or coal) I could find to pellets at the time. But there is no gas near me.


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## lessoil (Feb 15, 2010)

We like others were put into a corner in 2008.
In May of 2008 we were looking at $4.50/gal for oil.
We had been burning about 925 gal of oil per year for heat/hot water.
Math shows that the cost would have been $4163/yr for
heat/hot water for a 24'X32" Cape!! Enough OPEC!!
We have reduced our oil consumption from 925 to 400 gal.
We are running our 1st floor between 72-74F vs 68 with oil.
The 2nd floor runs between 63 and 68. (Use oil to maintain 67 in North bedroom)

Pellet prices have been going down since we bought the stove.
1st year- $314/ton
2nd year- $274/TON
Right now we can get them for $235/ton.
So, for this year oil would have been 925 gal X $2.25(Avg)= $2081 (No pellet stove)

With pellets: This year $1057 for pellets and $900 for oil or $1957 total
We saved approx.  $124!!
But, we are warmer and the majority of money is being spent locally.


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## btuser (Mar 5, 2010)

I looked at the pellet stove but couldn't swing the numbers.  

If you've got the layout for space heating then great, but there's only so much you can figure on pushing the heat where you want it.
Cardinal rule:  1 ton of pellets = 100 gallons of oil.  You can get better than that because of space heating vs house heating from everyone I've talked to the numbers are about right because there's a tendency to keep your house a lot warmer.


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## hot-n-bothered (Mar 5, 2010)

btuser said:
			
		

> I looked at the pellet stove but couldn't swing the numbers.
> 
> If you've got the layout for space heating then great, but there's only so much you can figure on pushing the heat where you want it.
> Cardinal rule:  1 ton of pellets = 100 gallons of oil.  You can get better than that because of space heating vs house heating from everyone I've talked to the numbers are about right because there's a tendency to keep your house a lot warmer.



I agree, it is all about the layout of your house if you are looking at it only as a financial investment. I have an old English barn conversion and a completely open floor plan on the 1st floor and the stove sets directly under a huge loft that allows the 3 upstairs bedrooms and bath direct access to the heat when doors are left open. I can easily heat the entire house to 70 degrees with my little englander burning one bag a day. I turn off my stove when I go to bed around 11pm. I have the oil furnace set at 65 to come on at 11pm to 6am.
When it's real cold I worry about the pipes in the basement because the furnace never comes on during the day except to heat the hot water. So I keep a small electric heater next to my water tank set to 45 degrees but I have never seen it come on in 2 years.  
The OP should also consider if he looses power with all that elect heat he will need a big generator, When I loose power I can run my heater on a little honda 2000 gen that also runs my fridge and propane range all at the same time.


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## Snowy Rivers (Mar 5, 2010)

First off, as mentioned, a heat pumps abilities go right out the window below 40F

A ground coil  (below two feet the temp is about 5o year round most places) is the ticket anyplace the temps get COLD

Now as far as payback on the pellet stove.

Buying a new unit for $2K to $4K is gonna really suck as far as payback goes.
With Pellet Cost where it is the stretch on the payback becomes LOOOOOOOONG.

NOW
I have a different concept on the issue.

I never buy new

Recently bought two (New to us) Whitfield Pellet stoves.

A Prodigy 2 with a hearth pad for $200
An Advantage 2T for $200

Now I also burn waste nut shells.

The payoff time is in months as compared to many many years if at all.

I heat the house for about $1 a day.
My house came with straight electric heat.

3 Pellet stoves and two of them are fed alternative fuels.
Have a Quad that stands by for very cold weather or if I need to be out of town and just keep it set to come on below 65F


Personallly I would watch Craigs List and scare up a nice used stove.

The folks here can advise on the particulars of the different brands.

These little creatures are not difficult to install, maintain or repair.

Most printed material (Owners manuals/repair manuals) are available online.


Best

Snowy


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