# RE: Siding question



## firefighterjake (Jun 18, 2013)

After doing our roof over in metal we decided that the cedar shingles looked kind of crappy with several of them curling so we are going with vinyl siding.

Since three of the four walls of the house are only 2 x 4 construction we also are adding foam panels for some additional insulation -- 3/4 inch to be precise.

The contractor plans to strip off the shingles, nail up the foam panels and then put on the siding . . .

Quick question . . . Should the contractor apply Typar or tar paper between the plywood and foam panels . . . or would putting up the foam panels and taping the seams work instead?


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## fossil (Jun 18, 2013)

Dunno the answer to that, but I would surely hope your contractor would.  I had vinyl siding installed during a big addition/remodel on our house in Virginia, and I never was particularly happy with it, for a number of reasons.  (BTW -  If you go that way, be really careful not to park a still-hot grill close to the wall after the steaks are done...vinyl melts into some really interesting shapes. )   My house & garage building out here in Bend are clad with fiber cement siding (commonly called Hardie board, but Hardie is just one of a few manufacturers).  Fire-resistant, dimensionally stable, paintable, and I think much more attractive than vinyl.  Rick


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## SIERRADMAX (Jun 18, 2013)

no need for housewrap. Tape each seam and caulk outer edges for moisture & insect protection.


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## Hearth Mistress (Jun 18, 2013)

I'm not sure if there was a particular reason, but our house is STILL being repaired from Sandy and our siding wasreplaced - asbestos siding taken off, tar paper applied to plywood then hardi-plank siding put on top. Not sure if the different material for the siding makes a difference (vinyl vs cement board) but I had a tar paper shack for a while until all of the siding was replaced.


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## Hogwildz (Jun 18, 2013)

Don't let them install foil faced siding on sun exposed sides of the house. It will warp the siding from behind. House wrap won't hurt over top the foam. Tape works, but will come loose as the adhesive dries out over time.


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## begreen (Jun 19, 2013)

You might want to ask a realtor about what the vinyl siding will do to the home value. I know it kept us away from looking at some houses.


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## BrotherBart (Jun 19, 2013)

Our house is brick front with miles of vinyl siding on the rest. Stuff is 28 years old and looks good and is going strong. Roofers asked me about siding and I asked them to show me why. They grinned and said they couldn't.


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## fossil (Jun 19, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> Our house if brick front with miles of vinyl siding on the rest...


 
Yup, that was my split-foyer in Fairfax, as well.


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## BrotherBart (Jun 19, 2013)

fossil said:


> Yup, that was my split-foyer in Fairfax, as well.


 

Well, there is that one corner on the back of the garage. Darn stuff should be made anticipating me not watching behind me when I was pulling the big trailer around back instead of the usual small one.  Obvious manufacturing defect.

ETA: This place was under roof and sided but not finished in April of 1985. We left work just as a monster hail storm hit. Just three days before I had commented that Fairfax obviously didn't get hail storms since everybody had aluminum siding. 

I hauled it straight for the building site the minute it stopped pounding the car. Not one shingle out of place and the siding was primo. The first time a roofer was on that roof was last Saturday when I had it replaced. Two years early according to the roofers. 

Most of Fairfax the next day looked like Nagasaki the day after...


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## begreen (Jun 19, 2013)

Watch out if there is an adjacent building with windows reflecting onto the siding.
http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/window-reflections-can-melt-vinyl-siding


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## fossil (Jun 19, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> Obvious manufacturing defect.


 
No doubt.  Just like the spot I turned into modern art by parking my gas grill too close while it was still hot.


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## BrotherBart (Jun 19, 2013)

begreen said:


> Watch out if there is an adjacent building with windows reflecting onto the siding.
> http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/window-reflections-can-melt-vinyl-siding


 

Two hundred yards of trees handles that nicely.  Of course falling trees is a whole nother thing.


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## begreen (Jun 19, 2013)

Yep, our house would be fine too. It rarely ever hits 80 and the garage is directly to the south. No chance of window reflecting sun here. Since the house was raised up 3 ft there is no chance of hitting it with the trailer either. A hot grille on the other hand is a definite possibility. Think we'll stick with clapboards.


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## BrotherBart (Jun 19, 2013)

I am amazed. Looks like painted wood and it doesn't ever need painting. But I figured it would fall off in pieces in five years tops. Two tornadoes, one spinning down 18 feet from the corner of the house, one earthquake and what seems like the crap from a bazillion hurricanes and it just sorta keeps on keeping on. Which is fine with me. Damn roof cost four times what I paid for my first new car. Sure is purdy though.


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## begreen (Jun 19, 2013)

Good to hear you finally got a weather window wide enough to get the roof on. Vinyl is fine as long as you don't apply heat.


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## Sprinter (Jun 19, 2013)

fossil said:


> Dunno the answer to that, but I would surely hope your contractor would. I had vinyl siding installed during a big addition/remodel on our house in Virginia, and I never was particularly happy with it, for a number of reasons. (BTW - If you go that way, be really careful not to park a still-hot grill close to the wall after the steaks are done...vinyl melts into some really interesting shapes. ) My house & garage building out here in Bend are clad with fiber cement siding (commonly called Hardie board, but Hardie is just one of a few manufacturers). Fire-resistant, dimensionally stable, paintable, and I think much more attractive than vinyl. Rick


+1.  Jake, I imagine that you have examined the alternatives, but I would also strongly recommend Hardie board siding over vinyl.  It costs more but along with Rick's reasons above, will surely add more value and resale appeal to the house.


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## BrotherBart (Jun 19, 2013)

begreen said:


> Good to hear you finally got a weather window wide enough to get the roof on. Vinyl is fine as long as you don't apply heat.
> 
> View attachment 104865


 

Back in 1985 I figured that is exactly what would happen. Go figure.

ETA: We were supposed to be here 18 to 24 months max. The guy that did that deal died just after we moved in. And the rest, as they say, is 30 years of history.

The flip side is, we kinda like it here in the large weeds.


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## jharkin (Jun 20, 2013)

I'll add another vote for Hardie board if you are not going with real wood. Ive never liked the look or feel of plastic, especially on historic houses when all the ornate trim and millwork typically gets cut off to slap the stuff on.


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## firefighterjake (Jun 20, 2013)

Appreciate the input . . . but we pretty much settled on vinyl for the cost and low maintenance although I have seen Hardie Board and like the look.

Around here most homes are vinyl so retail values should not be affected . . . if anything it may -- believe it or not -- help the value of the house -- albeit not much. High heat and heat sources should not be an issue . . . although I think I will move the grill on the back porch.


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## begreen (Jun 20, 2013)

The added insulation, wind sealing and thermal break will definitely help reduce the wood load, cooling load too, but maybe that is not too much of an issue in Bangor. It will be interesting to see what you think next winter.


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## semipro (Jun 20, 2013)

firefighterjake said:


> Appreciate the input . . . but we pretty much settled on vinyl for the cost and low maintenance although I have seen Hardie Board and like the look.


There are different grades of vinyl to consider.

To your original question:
I don't think anything should be put between the foam and plywood. I'd put house wrap over the taped foam and then tape the house wrap (well).
Foam does shrink with age and the addition of house wrap will help ensure long term air/water tightness.

(edit: see BuildingScience.com article on this).
http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/published-articles/pa-foam-shrinks/view


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## mepellet (Jun 20, 2013)

begreen said:


> Watch out if there is an adjacent building with windows reflecting onto the siding.
> http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/window-reflections-can-melt-vinyl-siding


Yup. Seen it. Put new windows in with half screens and couple years later siding started sagging. Put a full screen on the offending window and the sagging stopped.


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## vinny11950 (Jun 20, 2013)

firefighterjake said:


> After doing our roof over in metal we decided that the cedar shingles looked kind of crappy with several of them curling so we are going with vinyl siding.
> 
> Since three of the four walls of the house are only 2 x 4 construction we also are adding foam panels for some additional insulation -- 3/4 inch to be precise.
> 
> ...


 
You might want to check out these articles regarding the thickness of the foam. 3/4 inch might not be enough to keep the sheathing warm enough so it does not cause condensation.

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com...lating-minimum-thickness-rigid-foam-sheathing

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/qa-spotlight/how-insulate-wall-outside

It also matters how your walls are constructed and how much moisture travels in between them.

Maybe other will chime in about this. Good luck.

Excerpt below:

*All you need to know*

Here is the essential information from Table N1102.5.1 that applies to foam-sheathed walls:


*Climate Zone* *Minimum R-Value of Foam Sheathing*
Marine Zone 4: R-2.5 for 2x4 walls; R-3.75 for 2x6 walls
Zone 5: R-5 for 2x4 walls; R-7.5 for 2x6 walls
Zone 6: R-7.5 for 2x4 walls; R-11.25 for 2x6 walls
Zones 7: and 8 R-10 for 2x4 walls; R-15 for 2x6 walls
Once you know the minimum required R-value for your foam sheathing, you can determine your foam thickness. To do that, you need to know the R-value per inch of your foam. The most common type of expanded polystyrene (EPS) has an R-value of about R-3.6 per inch; extruded polystyrene (XPS) has an R-value of R-5 per inch; and polyisocyanurate has an R-value of about R-6.5 per inch.


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## pyroholic (Jun 21, 2013)

semipro said:


> There are different grades of vinyl to consider.
> 
> To your original question:
> I don't think anything should be put between the foam and plywood. I'd put house wrap over the taped foam and then tape the house wrap (well).
> Foam does shrink with age and the addition of house wrap will help ensure long term air/water tightness.


 
+10


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## woodsman23 (Jun 22, 2013)

the new foam comes with a barrier attached already, just tape and go.


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## save$ (Jun 25, 2013)

We had our home resided and put on a new roof.  All the trim, even some vinyl shingles, no more painting!  Looks good to us.  the installer also put some insulation on the walls, and sealed around all the doors and windows.


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## firefighterjake (Jun 25, 2013)

So far I'm really loving the siding . . . went with a mid-grade . . . from a few feet away it almost looks like painted or stained wood (other than that tell tale two strip joint every so often). A restaurant in town recently went with the same stuff and I had to really get up close to see if it was painted wood clapboards or vinyl. In case anyone is wondering . . . went with Mastic's Carved Wood in Quiet Willow -- in some light it looks green, in other light gray.

Project is moving along . . . I have had to stop and replace rotten sills at a couple of places. Good news/bad news I suppose. Bad news with the rot, but at least knowing about it now before putting up the siding is a good thing. Also good news -- I think I'll have enough kindling for the next three years with all the cedar shingles that are coming off the house.


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## Stax (Jun 25, 2013)

Housewrap (Tyvek, etc.) as a water barrier is always applied directly to OSB first before foam insulation in applied.  Funny thing is you usually staple it on.  And lots of them.  Talk a bout a water barrier.  Anyhow, housewrap first (expensive), then foam insulation.  Roofing guns work fastest.  All seams get taped.


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## firefighterjake (Jul 9, 2013)

Figured I would give folks an update . . . new windows installed in the upstairs replacing the 1976 vintage windows we had in place that had bad seals, installed 3/4 inch foam panels on three of the four sides (the front was rebuilt with 6 inch walls a few years back and we wanted to achieve a certain look there), new vents were installed in the attic and knee wall spaces, vinyl siding installed and all trim was wrapped in painted aluminum. It's a funny thing, but years ago when we were looking at homes to buy I told my wife I did not want a house with a metal roof or vinyl siding . . . and in the end . . . that's what I ended up with. Here's some before and after pics . . . before pics was from Fall a few years back.
	

		
			
		

		
	

View attachment 105988
View attachment 105988


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## save$ (Jul 9, 2013)

firefighterjake said:


> Figured I would give folks an update . . . new windows installed in the upstairs replacing the 1976 vintage windows we had in place that had bad seals, installed 3/4 inch foam panels on three of the four sides (the front was rebuilt with 6 inch walls a few years back and we wanted to achieve a certain look there), new vents were installed in the attic and knee wall spaces, vinyl siding installed and all trim was wrapped in painted aluminum. It's a funny thing, but years ago when we were looking at homes to buy I told my wife I did not want a house with a metal roof or vinyl siding . . . and in the end . . . that's what I ended up with. Here's some before and after pics . . . before pics was from Fall a few years back.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That looks good to me.   It is also very practical which is very important when you live in Maine.  Nice to know you won't have to worry about the snow load on your roof.


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## BrotherBart (Jul 9, 2013)

Very nice. No kidding about snow load. Wow that is a roof pitch.


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## firefighterjake (Jul 10, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> Very nice. No kidding about snow load. Wow that is a roof pitch.


 
Which is one reason I did not even attempt it myself . . . the crazy thing is two guys did this . . . with only a couple of ladders . . . in the middle of winter . . . and they had to level out the roof. They asked for a little more than the quoted price at the end of the project . . . I figured they earned it.


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## fishingpol (Jul 10, 2013)

That looks great Jake.  Real classy and fresh looking.


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