# Need suggestions for chimney liner



## Quakerfan (Oct 31, 2017)

Started breaking out the fireplace to install woodstove 8" rear flue. I have a good 12" space now, and I can almost stand up inside. Measured 7x9 clay tile, exterior chimney, bends slightly, extends well beyond the roofline, cap is hard to reach using 35ft ladder.
I planned for insulated, flexible, heavy duty liner 8" ...now I'm not so sure, so please advise me.


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## Sodbuster (Nov 2, 2017)

I'm sure there are those that will jump on me for this, but Quadrafire lists this as a recommenced install, so I feel safe recommending it, plus I did it for years on my own install.  I would run an insulated flex pipe long enough to get into the clay tile, sort of a modified "slammer' install. When you clean your chimney, or have it cleaned, you'll need to pull your stove and flex liner. Never had a problem with that install method. Plus is saves you from having to clean a 35' flex liner which can be a PIA.


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## begreen (Nov 2, 2017)

What stove is planned for this installation?


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## bholler (Nov 2, 2017)

Sodbuster said:


> I'm sure there are those that will jump on me for this, but Quadrafire lists this as a recommenced install, so I feel safe recommending it, plus I did it for years on my own install.  I would run an insulated flex pipe long enough to get into the clay tile, sort of a modified "slammer' install. When you clean your chimney, or have it cleaned, you'll need to pull your stove and flex liner. Never had a problem with that install method. Plus is saves you from having to clean a 35' flex liner which can be a PIA.


That is called a direct connect and it is still to code if you have a block off plate and a positive connection to the flue but it is far from ideal.  And why would you say 35' of flex would be hard to clean.  It is much easier to clean than 35' of clay.


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## bholler (Nov 2, 2017)

Quakerfan said:


> Started breaking out the fireplace to install woodstove 8" rear flue. I have a good 12" space now, and I can almost stand up inside. Measured 7x9 clay tile, exterior chimney, bends slightly, extends well beyond the roofline, cap is hard to reach using 35ft ladder.
> I planned for insulated, flexible, heavy duty liner 8" ...now I'm not so sure, so please advise me.
> 
> View attachment 202128
> ...


I would say you will have to go with oval or rectangle.


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## Hogwildz (Nov 2, 2017)

bholler said:


> That is called a direct connect and it is still to code if you have a block off plate and a positive connection to the flue but it is far from ideal.  And why would you say 35' of flex would be hard to clean.  It is much easier to clean than 35' of clay.


Not to mention having to pull the insert every time you sweep the old clay.
Not an option In would recommend.


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## Quakerfan (Nov 2, 2017)

Thanks so much guys for giving me a few options here.

1980's Quaker Moravian 303 (larger model) Rear flue 8", non-EPA, rebuilt & resealed.
I have been using another Moravian (top flue) in the garage...can't seem to get any work done because I just sit by the stove for hours, luv it!

Can I wrap the ovalized flex liner with insulation and chicken wire? Does this present any drop in install difficulty inside the 7x9 clay liner? What size ovalized, is still 8? I've measured for a 27-28 ft. liner from closure plate to chimney cap.

What else do I need to consider for the liner?


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## 2020 (Nov 4, 2017)

Quakerfan said:


> View attachment 215055
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> ...



You are probably finished by now, but if it's not too late, it looks like you need an eight inch flue to match up to your eight inch flue collar.  If the chimney flue is really 7" x 9", you'll never get an 8" liner through, much less an insulated liner.  Your chimney looks bigger than that in your photo but you'll need at least a 10" x 10" flue to get an insulated 8" liner down there. Personally, I wouldn't just put a liner in up to the first flue tile. Do you really want to pull that insert every time you sweep the chimney? Plus, it's extremely difficult to clean above the original damper and the chimney throat.


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## bholler (Nov 4, 2017)

Quakerfan said:


> View attachment 215055
> View attachment 215056
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> ...


Call a supplier and ask the for an 8" equivalent oval.  If it is to large for your flue with insulation I would down size to a 7" equivalent which will probably be an ovalized 8" to get the insulation.


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## Quakerfan (Nov 13, 2017)

Inside diameter of clay flue measures 7" x 11" exactly.

Which top brand manufacturers can I order from if I'm installing myself. 
I couldn't get pricing from Olympia website. Champion offers pre-insulated, any others to compare? Sleepy Hollow Super-flex is local, heavy duty quality made 304 stainless.
304, 304L, 316T ...which to choose?
How do I know if I'm getting the good stuff?


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## bholler (Nov 13, 2017)

Quakerfan said:


> Inside diameter of clay flue measures 7" x 11" exactly.
> 
> Which top brand manufacturers can I order from if I'm installing myself.
> I couldn't get pricing from Olympia website. Champion offers pre-insulated, any others to compare? Sleepy Hollow Super-flex is local, heavy duty quality made 304 stainless.
> ...


You want heavy wall flex liner for that stove and 304 is fine for wood.  You dont have to buy preinsulated you can wrap it yourself also.  And fyi champion is olympia pipe that they relabel for sale to the public.  Which is part of the reason they are so far behind we cant count on getting product from them.


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## Quakerfan (Nov 13, 2017)

304-L heavy-duty.
http://www.bellfiresusa.com/parts/fireplace_liner_super_flex.htm
How's this one?
...hopefully he can custom oval 8" to maximize 7x11 sizing.
He's local, I can probably order & pickup same day.

Thanks for helping narrow down best options. Here's the freestanding chimney (1930).


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## bholler (Nov 13, 2017)

Quakerfan said:


> 304-L heavy-duty.
> http://www.bellfiresusa.com/parts/fireplace_liner_super_flex.htm
> How's this one?
> ...hopefully he can custom oval 8" to maximize 7x11 sizing.
> ...


Wow that really sticks up there i take it you will be getting a lift.


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## Quakerfan (Nov 13, 2017)

A lift would certainly make it easier. My ladder dosen't make it to reach the cap. I can ladder to the roof, maybe another ladder from the steep roof to top cap. Safety harnesses & ropes for sure.

The liner in the link is actually quite heavy, and doesn't flex like others. The product picture is accurate. He does make a lighter version if needed.

Stacking four 48" sections of double wall pipe for the garage stove was easy compared to this chimney liner project. I did inquire about Furanflex (red), but I was told it's not certified here in NY for woodstoves.


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## bholler (Nov 14, 2017)

Quakerfan said:


> A lift would certainly make it easier. My ladder dosen't make it to reach the cap. I can ladder to the roof, maybe another ladder from the steep roof to top cap. Safety harnesses & ropes for sure.
> 
> The liner in the link is actually quite heavy, and doesn't flex like others. The product picture is accurate. He does make a lighter version if needed.
> 
> Stacking four 48" sections of double wall pipe for the garage stove was easy compared to this chimney liner project. I did inquire about Furanflex (red), but I was told it's not certified here in NY for woodstoves.


You could not pay me enough to lean a ladder against that chimney and climb up it.  And yes i know it is heavy.  But it flexes fine.


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## maple1 (Nov 14, 2017)

bholler said:


> You could not pay me enough to lean a ladder against that chimney and climb up it.  And yes i know it is heavy.  But it flexes fine.



Me either, no way no how. I do have a basic issue with long ladders anyway, to start with, but that is scary looking even with both feet on the ground. I would be using a lift all the way - and even then would be having the heebie jeebies the whole time.

It is me or is that leaning out quite a bit at the top? Looks like maybe some bracing or roof ties might be a consideration? (Non-pro perspective...)


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## Quakerfan (Nov 14, 2017)

That's why I've come here, to get the sound advice. You guys are the best.
 When I climbed up to nearly the top to measure down, I thought...no way I'm going to be able to carry a heavy liner up here. I laughed when I watched YouTube videos of guys shoving in lightweight liners, one handed, like a styrofoam noodle.
	

		
			
		

		
	





 Yes, good eye ...the chimney isn't perfectly straight.

Ordering the liner today, and exploring Lift options as well.


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## Supersurvey (Nov 14, 2017)

Quakerfan, what liner and what size did you end up ordering?  Is it pre-insulated?  I have the same 7 x 11 clay tile liner but only a short 13 feet tall.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Nov 14, 2017)

Quakerfan said:


> That's why I've come here, to get the sound advice. You guys are the best.
> When I climbed up to nearly the top to measure down, I thought...no way I'm going to be able to carry a heavy liner up here. I laughed when I watched YouTube videos of guys shoving in lightweight liners, one handed, like a styrofoam noodle.
> 
> 
> ...


When I rented the lift, it added $400 to the cost.  Maybe I could have done it with scaffolding and some rough temporary framing, if I'd more time and experience and courage. In the end, it was just time to bite the bullet and get the lift. Yours is way more challenging than mine. I recommend the lift.


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## Quakerfan (Nov 14, 2017)

Ordered Bellfires liner today, 26feet heavy 304L Ovalized 8". He maximizes the shape to what he said would fit  6  3/4" x 10  3/4" (7x11clay), no insulation for clay liner portion. Insulation wrap was recommended for lower section leading up to clay tile (estimated 5-6ft). Bought the entire kit from him, each component was good quality gauge thick. Ovalized top cap with added wind band is being made.

He suggested the clay liner does have insulating value, regardless 8" oval insulation wrapped wouldn't fit 7x11.

Rather than narrow to 7" liner, break out clay, or swap for 6" outlet stove... I guess this was the best way to make it fit and keep this particular stove.

Lift ...costing $350 for the day, shopping around for half-day rate now.


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## bholler (Nov 14, 2017)

Quakerfan said:


> Ordered Bellfires liner today, 26feet heavy 304L Ovalized 8". He maximizes the shape to what he said would fit  6  3/4" x 10  3/4" (7x11clay), no insulation for clay liner portion. Insulation wrap was recommended for lower section leading up to clay tile (estimated 5-6ft). Bought the entire kit from him, each component was good quality gauge thick. Ovalized top cap with added wind band is being made.
> 
> He suggested the clay liner does have insulating value, regardless 8" oval insulation wrapped wouldn't fit 7x11.
> 
> ...


Yeah he is completly wrong the clay has no insulating value at all.  And has no effect on insulation requirements.  Do you have the required clearances to combustibles from the outside of the masonry?


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## Quakerfan (Nov 14, 2017)

I thought so too. Referenced chart to determine if I could still insulate. Original 8" ovalized to 5.5 x 9.5 may allow for .5" insulation wrap. I'd prefer fully insulated liner if possible. 
	

		
			
		

		
	





Clearances are good, if the oak mantle gets too warm I'll replace with granite. Prior temp testing done with the garage stove when I planned hearth.
	

		
			
		

		
	





Outline was for 72" x 40" black granite hearth. Stove fits 1/3 inside opening , 2/3 remains out onto pad.


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## bholler (Nov 14, 2017)

Quakerfan said:


> I thought so too. Referenced chart to determine if I could still insulate. Original 8" ovalized to 5.5 x 9.5 may allow for .5" insulation wrap. I'd prefer fully insulated liner if possible.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So there is no combustible material within 2" of the outside of the masonry structure of the chimney?


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## Quakerfan (Nov 14, 2017)

Where exactly can inspect for this?

I'm assuming anything combustible between the house & chimney, at each floor level and roofline, before the chimney becomes standalone. 
The exterior of my house is original thick stucco 1930, let me check attic lower corner.


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## bholler (Nov 14, 2017)

Quakerfan said:


> Where exactly can inspect for this?
> 
> I'm assuming anything combustible between the house & chimney, at each floor level and roofline, before the chimney becomes standalone.
> The exterior of my house is original thick stucco 1930, let me check attic lower corner.


Anywhere you can get access.  I can already tell you the chances that you have proper clearances are slim to none.


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## Quakerfan (Nov 15, 2017)

In the attic, I pulled away some insulation to expose the chimney. Wooden framework (plywood & rafter) abuts 1/2" mortar, then brick. So, that doesn't look like 2" clearances...actually zero clearance.

Thank you for pointing this out to me. Due to the age of the chimney, clay tiles, and wanting a safe & sound install...I'm going to insulate the full length of liner, hopefully get it all shoved in.

Any particular type for a low profile, exceptionally strong insulation wrap?


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Nov 15, 2017)

Quakerfan said:


> In the attic, I pulled away some insulation to expose the chimney. Wooden framework (plywood & rafter) abuts 1/2" mortar, then brick. So, that doesn't look like 2" clearances...actually zero clearance.
> 
> Thank you for pointing this out to me. Due to the age of the chimney, clay tiles, and wanting a safe & sound install...I'm going to insulate the full length of liner, hopefully get it all shoved in.
> 
> Any particular type for a low profile, exceptionally strong insulation wrap?


Uh oh. I think you are reaching a dead end here. You won't get a liner of the appropriate size insulated to code down that chimney. And you shouldn't use an undersized liner with your stove. Sounds like you already ordered the custom liner and restored the stove.

When I reached this point, I abandoned the idea of using the classic stove I searched long and hard to find, and decided to just invest in a new stove that would work in my situation. The old stove sits in storage for another day.

I think at this point you are going to make some hard decisions. Install what you have out of code (not a great idea), or buy another stove with a 6" flue. If there is a way to get that 2" of clearances to combustables, that would be another option, but that sounds like a major construction project.

My strong desire to buy that specific old stove before I did all the necessary research cost me $500. I just consider it inventory and the price of an education.


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## bholler (Nov 15, 2017)

Like i said earlier you may have to down size to be able to insulate.  But i would choose downsizing some over running uninsulated.  And you only need 2" if the chimney is internal.  Which it looked like to me.  If it is external you only need 1" which you dont have anyway.


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## Quakerfan (Nov 16, 2017)

ED 3000 said:


> specific old stove before I did all the necessary research cost me $500. I just consider it inventory and the price of an education.


Just wondering what classic stove did you choose?

The original owner of my house heated with a coal stove for decades. It was probably direct connected, with smaller stove outlet. I think it was Jotul, Lange, or Morso, as I vaguely remember the decorative cast enamel animals on the sides.

Last week I did consider just getting a new stove 6" with largest fire view, like Pacific Energy ...but I'm enamored with the Quaker Moravian Parlor stove. I have three of these, a top-flue in the garage, rear-flue for the fireplace, and another rear-flue, black enamel (rare) that I plan to retrofit secondary burn tubes and install later in the basement dungeon man cave.
	

		
			
		

		
	






(Local ad picture)

The two Quaker Box stoves (Fawn & Buck sizes) are to be restored for friends hunting cabins.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Nov 16, 2017)

Quakerfan said:


> Just wondering what classic stove did you choose?
> 
> The original owner of my house heated with a coal stove for decades. It was probably direct connected, with smaller stove outlet. I think it was Jotul, Lange, or Morso, as I vaguely remember the decorative cast enamel animals on the sides.
> 
> ...


80's vintage VC Resolute. Just couldn't make it work with my clearances.

I understand your passion for that lovely old cast iron. My modern stove is utterly charmless in comparison. That is, until I load it with dry wood and have clean glass with a perfect picture of the flames and no smoke. Then that charmless hunk of steel fades into the background, and the fire is the star of the show.


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## Sylvatica (Nov 17, 2017)

ED 3000 said:


> 80's vintage VC Resolute. Just couldn't make it work with my clearances.
> 
> I understand your passion for that lovely old cast iron. My modern stove is utterly charmless in comparison. That is, until I load it with dry wood and have clean glass with a perfect picture of the flames and no smoke. Then that charmless hunk of steel fades into the background, and the fire is the star of the show.




Bingo.


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## Quakerfan (Nov 17, 2017)

8" Liner ovalized to 6x10 according to manufacturer.
(7x11 i.d. clay)

Insulation foil $207.90
1/4" x29" x25'
http://www.bellfiresusa.com/parts/foil_face_ceramic_insulation_cera_foil.htm

Wire mesh skin
part# SS710, plus clamps
http://www.bellfiresusa.com/parts/wire_mesh_super_skin.htm

Theoretically total diameter of 6.5" x 10.5". Seems like a really tight fit, too tight ...but it does insulate the liner for entire length.


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## bholler (Nov 17, 2017)

Quakerfan said:


> 8" Liner ovalized to 6x10 according to manufacturer.
> (7x11 i.d. clay)
> 
> Insulation foil $207.90
> ...


1/4" insulation does not meet the code requirement you need 1/2".


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