# Harman XXV or Quadrafire Mt. Vernon



## ensoll

We just sold our beloved Dutchwest wood stove, fixing to get a pellet.  So far, it looks to us like the Harman XXV and Quad Mt. Vernon AE are the heavy hitters on the traditional style freestanding stove market right now.  We looked at the Harman and I thought I was attracted to the bottom feed (freedom of pellet choice) but the temperature control system was unimpressive, as demonstrated by the dealer.  It claims to hold any temp you tell it to.  Big whoop.  My toaster does that.  The Harmon also looked crudely constructed with robot welds all over the place.  In function, it looks like some kind of industrial heat treating plant.

Then we looked at the Quad.  It is top feeding, but has an automatic pot cleaner, negating the advantage of the bottom feeding Harman.  It also has an (just what I was looking for) electronic programmable temperature controller.  I want to maintain minimum temps during the day while at work, and come home to a toasty house at 5.  On the same controller, you can select what fuel you are burning.  You can burn any fuel available for pellet stoves.  You just scroll through a list and pick your fuel.  It even differentiates between "utility pellets", "hardwood pellets", and "softwood pellets".

The Quad salesman also boasted about how this new Mt Vernon has been reduced in complexity and has a very short parts list, even compared to its older little brother, the Castile.  Although I was fully aware to filter out all of the sales pitching, it sounds like Quadrafire is attempting to turn over a new leaf in its stove design with the Mt. Vernon.  The electronic temp controller is a big thumbs up, as is the airfoil heat exchanger plate design.  It also sounds daggone quiet in operation.  It looks like a real nice little package.

I'd like to hear suggestions of competitive stoves and/or criticism of my impressions of the Harman and Quad.  Please, don't hold back.  I'm new to pellet stoves and need all the info I can get.

Chris P


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## jtp10181

I have been very impressed with the Mt Vernon AE, we have a few out in the field and one in our show room. It is whisper quite compared to the other Quad pellet units. Today we fired our showroom model up with straight corn for a customer to see, lit right off with the auto igniter. The thermostat has the ability to hook up to a computer (by the dealer) to upgrade the fuel tables or add new fuels if they come out with specs for them. I don't know about the parts list... it is 10 pages long just like all the other pellet units. Same basic parts, control board, vac switch, few snap discs, two blowers, auger and motor, etc... Another advantage is the whole system is 12v DC motors so with the battery backup cables you can hook it right to a 12v DC battery with no inverter. You just have to light it manually. The new airfoil system they designed not only gets more heat out of each load but holy cow is it easier to clean than previous Quad units. The old Mt Vernon you have to take out 3 Alan bolts and fight with 4 heavy baffle panels. Now all you do is rotate two clips with a screwdriver and it slides right out.

There are a few people on here who HAVE the harman unit, I'm sure they can comment on that. Any other questions about the Quad and I would be happy to give real answers. Even though I work for a dealer I don't see the point in holding back or misrepresenting something just to make a sale, in the end the customer will just be unhappy.


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## richg

My suggestion would be the Harman P68. I owned a Quad 1200 and hated it.  flimsy, it rusted inside, needed clenaning 2x per day for mega clinkers (I burned at least 6 brands of pellets), hopper intake would get brdiged by large pellets or sawdust fines, glass smoked up in a day, house temperature was all over the place despite a digital thermostat, should I go on? I bought a p61A and am totally satisfied. The Harman may not be the prettiest stove out there, but if you want reliable heat, there is no comparison. Quad just bought Harman for a reason.  here is a link you may find to be of interest. 

https://www.hearth.com/ratesingles/rate1252.html


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## ensoll

I should have been a little more clear on one thing, we are only looking at the traditional style freestanding stoves.  I can't stand the look of the contemporaries and it's not even a remote option for my lady...She's all about form and I'm all about function, no big surprise I'm sure.

Chris P

EDIT 10/5/07: I was made aware that this may sound offensive to the ladies out there - Apologies!  It wasn't meant to.  It was just something I've noticed in other threads in the forum as well as in my own experience.  I don't mean to fault the ladies.  Without them, the world would be a much uglier place and I don't mean that it is the ONLY thing they care about, just the FIRST thing they notice, in general.


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## Jabberwocky

richg said:
			
		

> Quad just bought Harman for a reason.
> 
> https://www.hearth.com/ratesingles/rate1252.html



Quad (HNI corp) is flush with cash and Harman was basically going out of business.

My take ... in the end with these two ...it comes down to looks and a few features .. think Lexus or BMW 7 series.


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## ensoll

Jabberwocky,

Could I ask who you use for a dealer and your impression?  We visited Enchanted Fireside in Worcester, Ma.  The salesman was very informative (as indicated above).  He had me sold until I asked him for a printed quote.  He said 'sure'.  We sat down.  He asked for all of my contact information.  In a weak moment, I gave it to him.  A few minutes later, he turned his monitor around and showed me the quote.  I said great, I'll take the print out of it.  He said he couldn't print it without a deposit.  I said, I wish I'd known you were going to pull that trick before I gave you my contact info.

I now have no desire to do business with them for that reason.  I bleeping hate that crap!  If they aren't honest and open from the beginning, how will they perform when you need real service? (rhetorical question)

On the other hand, the Harman dealer/salesperson at the Stove Place in Shrewsbury, Ma was much more normal with no punches being pulled.

Thanks in advance,

Chris P


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## jtp10181

Places don't usually like to "print" computer generated quotes because people will just use it to go someplace else and shop around, especially if it has all the part numbers and everything on it. What we do to get around it is make hand written quotes with basic info and prices. Great for the customer because its personal and gives them the info they need, good for us because its less of a tool to show another dealer (but still could be done).


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## Gooserider

A minor cautionary note on Harman - As you know they are apparently getting bought out by Quad, but there is still a great deal of uncertainty on the deal.  It might not go through.  What will happen to the existing dealer network is unknown.  What will be done about existing warranties is unknown.  What will happen with the entire model line is not definite, let alone parts and such.  Hopefully all will turn out well, but until there is more definite knowledge about the deal and what it will entail, I'm not sure that a Harman is a safe investment.

(There are LOTS of rumors going around, not much solid info, some of the rumors say things are much worse than the press releases on either side are letting on.  Some of the members here with heavy duty inside contacts have been trying to find out more details, but so far anybody who knows anything isn't saying...)

Gooserider


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## elkimmeg

This is a strange setup Quad (HNI corp) is planning to buy out Harman,but at the same time is closing down some of their current operations plants

 To me that is not a situation flush with cash. 

 when the newest Mt Vernon was released no dealers had the laptop program to diagnose operations errors They had initial  problems and issues

 Hopefully by now they have been worked out. So many problem, many dealers  were refusing to sell them and even shipped them back.

 That was at least a year back and hopefully all dealers have been trained and equipped to repair there stoves.

 My first question to the selling dealer would be to,  ascertain if he has the necessary training computer program to deal with this new stove.

 Even replacement parts were an issue.  Quad was charging the dealers a lot of money for the computer program and  cable connector,

 needed to service these stoves.  Also these stoves required a firmware upgrade to fix operations issues. (Extremely hard to do without the cable and software
 upgrade and programed into the lap top to accomplish) 

 My next question to the selling dealer would be has the firmware been upgraded
 I also would ask the build date


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## begreen

richg said:
			
		

> My suggestion would be the Harman P68. I owned a Quad 1200 and hated it.  flimsy, it rusted inside, needed clenaning 2x per day for mega clinkers (I burned at least 6 brands of pellets), hopper intake would get brdiged by large pellets or sawdust fines, glass smoked up in a day, house temperature was all over the place despite a digital thermostat, should I go on? I bought a p61A and am totally satisfied. The Harman may not be the prettiest stove out there, but if you want reliable heat, there is no comparison. Quad just bought Harman for a reason.  here is a link you may find to be of interest.
> 
> https://www.hearth.com/ratesingles/rate1252.html


I don't think your experience is typical rich. Quad sells a lot of pellet stoves and has many happy owners. Your experience is very much the opposite experience I had with the 1200i. The stove was a gem. Really light maintenance, once every two weeks. Never any sign of rusting in over 5 years of usage. This sounds like another issue entirely. I'm suspecting you were burning standard grade pellets. In that case, yes, the Harman is more flexible.


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## jtp10181

elkimmeg said:
			
		

> My next question to the selling dealer would be has the firmware been upgraded
> I also would ask the build date



Definitely if you get a Quad Mt Vernon AE make sure it was made recently. Supposedly all the old units with problems were sent back to Quad quite a while ago to get the upgrades in them. I need to order a new control board and wall stat for our showroom since its the original version.


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## ensoll

After checking around a bit, I found a more interesting dealer than the one close to us.  The personnel at this dealer was pleasant, accommodating, and helpful with our questions and their pricing was better.  We decided to go on a road trip and pay them a visit today since the terrible weather had killed the original plans we had made for the day.  Once we met the people, we couldn't resist getting the Quadrafire.  Our minds were made up, thanks in part to the responses received on this forum.  By the time we left the store, they were like friends (I know, I know, of course - we just smashed their quota for the day).

It was an interesting trip home as the weight of the stove felt like it was taking the front wheels off of the ground but we made it without incident.  So far, we've managed to get it out of the back of our SUV and into place in our house.  Tomorrow we will get the ducting hooked up, route the thermostat, and whatever else is needed to complete the installation.  I feel very confident that we made a good choice.  I really like the construction of this Mt. Vernon AE.  Oh, and the manufacturing date is Sept 2007 so I'd have to presume we got as recent a model as possible - thanks for the mention.

We can't wait to get it running and pop a bottle of champagne to celebrate!  I'll reply back with an update following.  Now we just need to find a good source for pellets.  I plan to buy premium grade to save from any possible hassles (auger jams, cleaning intervals, etc).  Thanks for coming along on my adventure!

Chris P


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## begreen

Congratulations Chris. You have a really well equipped garage. Keep us posted on the install and first fire. And keep taking the great photos.


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## ensoll

Thanks!  That's actually our (she calls it "my") barn which is up on a hill.  I'd tell you in detail about how we got the stove out of our small SUV and ultimately into our house, but it would be a long story.  Suffice it to say it was like pyramid building practice.

Also, I thought I would have better pictures to share but the digital camera we got recently has turned out to be junk.  It's a Panasonic TZ3.  I had read some reviews about it that made it look like a million bucks, right up there with Sony and Canon but even on a tripod, the pictures often come out blurry.  Perhaps there is just something wrong with just this exact unit, but it's going back!  Moments like these can't be sacrificed to an undependable trustee.

Chris P


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## webbie

BTW, I have the same Camera as my "2nd" camera. I also bought it based on the reviews and am not incredibly happy with it - although I don't think it is defective. Just that I expected more. I had a Canon Elph before that - also not really happy....despite reviews. Yet I had $99 Fujis that took GREAT pics, 

My main camera is over 5 years old - a BIG Sony F707 - I can't find any reason to replace it!
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydscf707/

I think the lesson learned is that once you are used to something good (long lenses and optics), it's hard to go back.

BTW, did you buy that Stove from Gabe? (Pres. Trading).


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## webbie

richg said:
			
		

> Quad just bought Harman for a reason.  here is a link you may find to be of interest.



Unfortunately, that reason is that Harman could not continue in business. They spent too much and made too little (in comparison) - Economics 101.

Sad thing after 25+ years of building up a business, but a mistake a lot of sole proprietors make - looking back, Harman should have just said "let 'em wait" to increased demand after Katrina, but instead went on what was perhaps the largest spending spree in stove history. 250,000 sq. ft addition, plans for their own foundry and many millions of dollars of new machinery. Then they built up a vast inventory of stoves. Sales settled back to normal (still good, just not incredible) and that was the nail in the coffin. That's what I can piece together anyway.

HNI is a public company, which means they have a lot more controls in place. At the same time, public companies like this are beholder to the shareholders, so they are going to consolidate manufacturing and increase distribution without thinking too much about the workers or the dealers (unless it benefits all of them)....that's the story of manufacturing.


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## ensoll

We got the stove all set up today, plumbed it in and temporarily routed the thermostat across the room.  We took some pictures because we knew the stove was Never Ever going to look like this again (with our 'gooder' camera).  

The stove slowly woke up and came to life with quite a few strange stumbles at first, but we eventually got it to breath its first breath after about 20-30 minutes of scratching our perplexed heads.  One of the more comical stumbles happened when we finally got the stove to manually burn some pellets, the dang thing started an autoclean cycle completely at random.  The barely burning embers were all dumped into the ash pan as if the stove was defiantly and stubbornly refusing to light.

One thing that made it so difficult to diagnose the situation was that the stove is SO quiet.  It's barely audible.  The only time you notice anything is when the convection fan revs up to a higher speed due to a larger flame in the pot (we have the system on 'automatic').

Long story a little shorter, we've spent most of the evening enjoying our new Quadrafire Mt. Vernon AE with nothing but satisfaction.  The only wish we realized after the installation was complete was to have known that there is an optional kit to convert to a top venting exhaust instead of the standard rear venting exhaust.  We very much would have liked to be told about this.  Oh well, I'll call the dealer and see about ordering it.  Then, it will just mean tearing down the chimney and starting over.  Grrr.  This kit will help us to get the stove closer to the wall and have the chimney centered behind the stove instead of off to one side.

Enjoy the pics and have a warm winter!  Thanks to everyone and any questions are welcome.


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## begreen

And I thought the 1200i was easy to clean. The new Mt. Vernon looks really slick. They've cleaned up the interior of the stove a lot compared to our 1200i.


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## masterswimmer

Congrats Chris.  Good luck with your new stove.  Looks great.  BTW, you write very well.  Was fun reading your saga.

swimmer


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## jtp10181

BeGreen said:
			
		

> And I thought the 1200i was easy to clean. The new Mt. Vernon looks really slick. They've cleaned up the interior of the stove a lot compared to our 1200i.



That top airfoil is all that has to come off to clean it. It pops off with two latches, you just jam a screwdriver in and rotate. Way easier to clean that previous pellet units.


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## ensoll

I was reading back through the thread and there are a couple of points I'd like to revisit and questions I never answered.

1- JTP10181, regarding the Quad dealer who duped me into not giving a printed quote, I wouldn't care if they didn't want to give out a printed quote for competitive reasons in-and-of itself.  What ticks me off is him asking for my contact info with no intention of giving me what I ask for.  Anyone who does that rubbish is immediately and forever on my **it list, regardless of any other benefit to me.  I won't do business with them.  Period.

2- Webmaster Craig, the dealer we went to and highly recommend was All Basic Stoves in Merrimack, NH.  They are good people, mainly family run it seems.  We talked with them about Harman vs Quad.  Rick's first answer was "They are both excellent stove manufacturers".  (That is one way a sales person gets my nod of approval.)

3- Webmaster Craig, I drooled over the DSC-717 for about a year.  I wasn't in a position to justify the $700 to get one at the time (still not, really) but I immediately fell head-over-heels for the offset layout and interchangeable Carl Zeiss lens.  I just knew that I'd be constantly wanting something smaller.

4- Masterswimmer, thanks for the mention of my writing.  It means a lot to me.  I try to write like I like to read...which is rarely found in this day of fast paced electronic messaging.  The declining level of literacy in this country is frightening.

5- JTP10181, Yes, this stove seems ridiculously easy to clean.  There is a DVD included that shows it in action.  They even have soothing background music to distract you from the $$$$$$ you just smattered buying the stove.  (Just kidding, we have no regrets and are extremely happy)

6- Regarding the 20-30 minutes of startup woes, this all happened because when I plugged in the power and the stove began the startup procedure (automatically), the ash pan was ajar.  After the automatic pot cleaning cycle, the electronic controller gave an error message telling us the ash pan was not in correctly.  We fixed that but the system didn't seem to have the ability to recover or get back on track.  To the defense of Quad, if we had just installed the ash pan correctly, the stove probably would have started right up.  I eventually unplugged the stove and started from scratch, hoping it would behave normally and it did.  Everything worked fine although we did have to induce the fire manually just by putting a handful of pellets in the burn pot.  The stove did the rest.

I think that's it...Chris P


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## jtp10181

Yeah the thing can be hard to get going from a cold start with no pellets in the tube and half ripped apart. It wants to do its thing and wont let you bypass it. I wish there was a manual control mode where you could tell it to not autoclean and just aug the fing pellets until the fire starts going. Its too smart and automatic for its own good in some situation.


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## Jabberwocky

Chris P said:
			
		

> Jabberwocky,
> 
> Could I ask who you use for a dealer and your impression?  We visited Enchanted Fireside in Worcester, Ma.



Chris, 

I bought from Enchanted in Worcester and had no problems.  They featured zero down, zero % financing for 1 year which another dealer in Littleton, MA did not.  Mine came with a big chip in the base and it was handled quite efficiently on a warranty basis.  I plan on keeping my servicing with them because I liked the technician.

I think the dealer is just looking not to get screwed as a later poster explained.  

You kinda jumped the gun a little at start up, you'll go thru the same thing if you unplug it for a long time.  The beast just takes 20 minutes to figure itself out.  I just run the thing on auto because this thing produces so much heat I'd be afraid of melting the paint off the walls.

Be sure to push your ash pan in tight, otherwise the air flow gets screwed up.

I like how the glass stays clean for a whole week or more even though my machine is creeping along on low most of the time.

So, everyone hold their fire on slamming this dealer ... he is one of the good guys.


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## ensoll

I wish I could agree with you but this guy pulled his little trick with a smirk on his face.  Not even an apology for the misunderstanding.  He could barely be bothered to let me have a pen to write down his overpriced quote.

I'm not trying to bash him, I'd encourage anyone and everyone to visit the shop and get their own impression.  I did say that the man was knowledgeable.  I enjoyed my conversation with him about the stove.  I just don't like someone taking advantage of me.  For those who don't care about where their personal information goes, jump right in and have a ball.


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## elkimmeg

How did your inspector like the installation.  you dis get a permit I hope, my next job may be the first state mechanical inspector


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## ensoll

It's been a week so I thought I'd give some feedback on our initial experience with the Mt. Vernon AE.  Overall, it's a smashing addition to our home.

To start at the prequel, I do miss our wood stove.  There's a primal caveman-like satisfaction to selecting just the right logs from the pile, building a stack, and getting a fire going strong and then sitting back to watch the flames lick away at the inside of the stove as the embers spark, crack, and pop while they give off their aromatic scent and bountiful radiant heat.  No fans, no electricity, just air, wood, and some heavy black cast iron.  Occasionally, you see a puff of smoke drift by outside a window.  From outdoors, the gentle plume wafts into the wind telling everyone there is life inside this home.  The smell from the chimney is such a wonderful offset to the cold winter.

The pellet stove is a clear reminder that we live in a modern society where everything is point-and-click, just-add-water, microwaveable frozen dinners, internet banking, and remote controls.  Someone else has already done the work for you.  Plug-n-play.  In daily life, it is a wonderful thing.  It's as if the pellet stove comes with a butler who politely says in his British accent, "Now sir, you just go on and make yourself comfortable in your chair.  Let's put your feet up.  I will take care of the fire for you.  Just tell me what temperature you would like.  Can I bring you some tea?  Might I light your cigar for you?"

It's a little uncomfortable for someone used to hard work at every turn of the day.  The idea of not having to stack wood, haul loads into the house, sweep bark bits and sawdust, monitor kindling supply and ignition sources, gloves, fire tools, flue damper, etc etc etc leaves you feeling a little toothless.  There isn't as much payoff for the fire if no effort is required to get it.  The only challenge with this pellet stove is from four buttons on a 4 x 6" white plastic box with a little blue screen on it.  You hit an up arrow and the fire starts or gets bigger.  Hit the down arrow and it goes away.  Simple as that.  Ooo.

Yesterday, after one week of burning Energex pellets, we set about cleaning the stove.  It took about 5-10 minutes to do.  As I slid out the ash pan, I expected it to be nearly full.  After all, it had been burning for a whole week.  Nope.  I pulled out the tray and there was a little pile of ash and clinker that was almost embarrassing to look at.  It was like a newborn baby's diaper - nothing there!  Out of a weeks worth of pellets (about 7 bags), we had maybe a total of about a quart of ash between the ash pan and the firebox.  We vacuumed off the heat exchanger and combustion area and it was all done.

We miss the mesmerizing wood fire but the long and short of it is that this pellet stove is so dad-gum convenient.  With the programmable controller, we now come home to a toasty fire instead of having to dig through the gray pile of ash hoping a few embers are left to resuscitate the fire back to life before it is altogether too late..."Hurry up and get some kindling on there!  Smoke is coming into the room, close the door quickly!  Damn, this piece of wood is too green!  Oh shoot, this one is an inch too long"...you remember the days.

*With regard to the Mt. Vernon stove itself, there isn't a single thing we would change.*  The stove is quiet as a church mouse in all respects.  Motors, fans, even the fire itself are completely unobtrusive.  It is really a marvel of technology.  Perhaps, the two cleverly designed clips that hold the heat transfer plate in the stove could be changed so that they do not need a screwdriver to utilize.  The ash pan could use some guides, like a bedroom dresser drawer, to help it slide in horizontally instead of the current sloppy and too-low-to see - go-by-feel-only mechanism in place.  Truthfully, though, these are minor gripes.  I do wish it could hold more pellets.  You can only load about one days worth into the hopper.

I also can't help but wonder, what is the need for the 400+ lbs of cast iron?  It isn't being used to retain and radiate heat so why is it needed?  I suppose it is probably like human hair and fingernails -  evolutionary leftovers.  I'd guess it's a marketing necessity.  People equate cast iron with wood burning stoves and would scoff at the product without it.  That's my thought anyway.

*We do have a few issues with the programmable controller:*

1- There is no "On" or "Off" setting.  Surprisingly, you can't tell the thing to just "Go".  It has to be controlled by desired temperature.  I would have thought that would be the starting point for the system design.

2- The system has a built in procedure for starting and shutting down.  Once it has entered these procedures, you can't interrupt it.  For example, in adjusting some settings, I accidentally lowered the desired temperature and caused the system to enter "shutdown" mode.  Once it enters this mode, it gradually ends the fire and goes into its "autoclean" cycle, cleaning the burn pot.  It takes several minutes to get through this.  Then the system sits at "ready" for some time, then it will finally re-enter the "startup" mode and get back to where you were ~20 minutes previously.  As soon as I realized I had lowered the temperature too far, I tried raising it back up immediately.  This did not interrupt the "shutdown" cycle as I had hoped and expected.  This is an area I would VERY MUCH like to see changed.

3- The temperature calibration has been flighty.  I've been chasing the calibration up and down over the week to get it to match thermometers in the room.  It seems to overshoot. 

4- Some of the commands I would like to have access to more frequently are buried.  "Convection blower speed" is one.

5- The buttons require too much pressure to actuate.

Overall, the Mt. Vernon AE is a very welcome addition to our home.  We are thrilled to have one.


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## lmei007

That means we can buy Quadrafire stove at any dealer you choice? I was asked a Harman dealer in HN to see if I can buy a Harman stove from him but he refused. I am in Boston MA. For Quadrafire, the story is different?


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## ensoll

I don't understand the question.  Each dealer has their own line of products.  What they sell is up to them.


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## smirnov3

lmei007 said:
			
		

> That means we can buy Quadrafire stove at any dealer you choice? I was asked a Harman dealer in HN to see if I can buy a Harman stove from him but he refused. I am in Boston MA. For Quadrafire, the story is different?


I don't know about boston, but there is a Quad dealer in Canton, just off of the 95


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## lmei007

I was interested in Harman pellet stove before. There are two Harman dealers in Boston area. I know there are few in NH. I called one in New Hamshire. He didn't want to sell to me after he knew my address because there is a Harman dealer more close to me. I called a Boston area dealer. He asked me the address first and told me they only service a certain of areas. It looks to me for each dealer, there is service distance to him, in the case of Harman dealership.

My question is if Quadrafire also restrict his dealers only serve a certain of area to avoid competition between his dealers.

I am close to Burlington Mall actually.


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## ensoll

Ok, I understand.  

Well, I asked my dealer if it would be a problem right from the beginning. They said it wouldn't as long as I was ok with them not coming to my house for service.  I was fine with that because I'd rather do it myself anyway.

If you are not comfortable being responsible for your own stove service/repairs/maintenance, I would recommend working with someone close by.

Be sure you look at the Quad for comparison to the Harman before you buy and place a lot of weight on your impression of the dealer in making your choice.


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## jtp10181

Their not being a "ON / OFF" mode, and the fact that it will not deviate from its program of shutdown / autoclean / whatever I also find annoying. Maybe this is to keep people from abusing the stove and burning their house down. If you could somehow bypass the auto-clean I could see some people always making it skip and the pot would never get cleaned. Who knows, maybe its just lack of consumer testing and feedback.


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## ensoll

Well, a savvy engineer could design the intelligence such that if the program is autocleaning because it has met its time limit, then fine, keep on autocleaning but if it is going into an autoclean cycle because of a user setting adjustment (shutdown cycle entered), then they ought to be able to interrupt it.  I think it shows lack of attention to detail but I'm sure it will improve with future products.  Quad seems to be trying to make a better mousetrap.

As for burning one's house down, I'd like to see the scenario where that would happen.  I tend to think this machine has been tested for overheating and safety precautions designed in to counteract that possibility.


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## jtp10181

There have supposedly been a few cases of hopper fires in that unit (as well as every other pellet unit in existence I would assume). Although they design every possible way to keep them safe some idiot always manages to find a way around it and cause trouble.

If you feel so inclined, you could basically copy / paste your earlier (long) post and send it in a letter to Quad. http://www.quadrafire.com/Contact_Us/Contact_Us.asp

Include your model & serial number. They will enter the complaints / concerns about the control into their system and keep track. If they get a lot of the same feedback it would prompt changes, or at least considering changes (or maybe why they can't change it).


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## ensoll

Oh, I did that straight away.  I also mentioned it to my dealer in case I was just missing something.  If I had to wage a guess, I'd also figure they watch these forums like a hawk.  That has been the case in my personal work experience at a former job.


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## Gooserider

lmei007 said:
			
		

> I was interested in Harman pellet stove before. There are two Harman dealers in Boston area. I know there are few in NH. I called one in New Hamshire. He didn't want to sell to me after he knew my address because there is a Harman dealer more close to me. I called a Boston area dealer. He asked me the address first and told me they only service a certain of areas. It looks to me for each dealer, there is service distance to him, in the case of Harman dealership.
> 
> My question is if Quadrafire also restrict his dealers only serve a certain of area to avoid competition between his dealers.
> 
> I am close to Burlington Mall actually.



Part of this is because of the way Harman sets up their service structure - they expect the dealer to be the SOLE point of customer contact, and to build their costs to provide service into the price they charge for the stove.  Thus the only dealer that is really responsible for providing support, service, warranty coverage, etc. is the SELLING dealer.  The dealer in NH doesn't want to get stuck with an obligation to support a stove in Boston, and vice versa.  One can argue the merits of this model, but that's how it is.

Quad has a slightly different service and support model, so they are a bit less fussy about where they sell to, although it is still not a bad idea to stick with the local dealer.

Gooserider


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## lmei007

Anybody know if the dealer will sell me the parts in the future if I did not buy stove from him? 

And also what's cost range for a service (labor only)?


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## Gooserider

lmei007 said:
			
		

> Anybody know if the dealer will sell me the parts in the future if I did not buy stove from him?
> 
> And also what's cost range for a service (labor only)?



In the past people have reported being able to get parts from non-selling Harman dealers, but you can expect that you will be a lower priority customer, and to have to pay the costs of any special services such as express shipment on parts, or that sort of thing.  Service I don't have any idea on, but I would expect it to be on the same order as what other "trades" such as plumbers or electricians would get in your area, usually so much an hour, plus travel time.

Gooserider


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## lmei007

Hi Chris, How can you move the 420lbs stove? Did you use pallet jack? any useful tools for move it around?


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## lmei007

Yes, you do have a pallet jack but I cannot use it in the insert stove. how can I move it around??? and how can I take it down to basement?? can the stove be dismantled into pieces??


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## ensoll

I used combinations of a chainfall, come-along, atv jack (shown in picture), straps, and a furniture dolly to get the stove out of the vehicle and made portable.  The furniture dolly was probably the most rewarding tool.  Then, the thing to do is use wood stacks and 2 x 6's and a hydraulic jack to lift it off of the furniture dolly and lower it to the floor.  

I don't know what to suggest for getting an insert into a fireplace except maybe a piece of cardboard under the stove but I've never done it before so I'd hate to recommend something that could be a potential fire hazard.  Hopefully someone else can offer advice on that.


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## Gooserider

lmei007 said:
			
		

> Hi Chris, How can you move the 420lbs stove? Did you use pallet jack? any useful tools for move it around?



You need to think like an Egyptian Pyramid builder...  And use many of the same tools!  In getting my current setup the way it is, I had to move three several hundred pound stoves around single handedly, up and down stairs, on and off elevated hearths, etc.

The key thing is to plan everything out ahead of time carefully.  Don't rush, and don't try to "brute force" it when you can use simple tools to ease the job.

Among the things that I used - 

Ramps - 2 x 10's 12' long, w/ aluminum end peices.

A two wheel dolly

A couple of "Come-alongs"

8 peices of 1/2" schedule 40 steel pipe, each about 1' long - as rollers

Lots of 1x and 2x cribbing blocks

A couple sheets of plywood

Tie down straps and ratchet straps

Pry-bars in a variety of shapes and sizes

Etc.

Gooserider


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## begreen

Don't try to do this by yourself, even with the 1200i. Get some friends to help with the moving and have some sandwiches, beer and/or wine on hand to reward them. If you try to do it by yourself, you have no backup in case something goes wrong. 

The stove will be bolted to a pallet. Rollers, levers, and boards to slide it down the stairs with a safety rope (on a pulley, come-a-long, winch or vehicle) to ease it down the stairs. Or just pay for the stove company to deliver it in place. That shouldn't be much. You can have all the venting already installed and ready to receive the stove. Have a thin sheet of metal on the hearth for stove to slide on.


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## jtp10181

You guys and all your lifts and tools and crap... heres how we do it in Madison - two strong guys, done.


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## lmei007

needs two?


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## Xena

jtp10181 said:
			
		

> You guys and all your lifts and tools and crap... heres how we do it in Madison - two strong guys, done.




Good for you in Madison.   I had to use "tools and crap".
Where the hell were your two strong guys when I needed them?
 ;-P


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## ensoll

I'd like to see "two strong guys" get this palletted stove out of the back of an SUV.  Plus, two _smart _guys would know better than to try moving something like this as far as our stove had to and through the route it had to go.  I prefer to save my back for more worthwhile causes.

If it were just a matter of picking it up for a second off of a cart and setting it in place, well, that's just what we did.  However, we removed as much weight from the stove as possible before doing so.  We got the weight down to around half by taking off the doors, top, and heat plate inside.  Most of the cast iron was removed at this point.


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## Tristan

Loaded the XXV into my Sienna.  Drove the thing home.  Pulled the Sienna into the backyard.  "Watch out for the swing set Daddy!" warned my 3 year-old.  Four people to lift XXV out from the Sienna, (1) 14 year-old 5'-6" 150lb, (2) 18 year-old 5'-5" 130lb each, and me old and decrepit.  Brought it into the house and onto to the hearth, installed.  Fire.


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## ensoll

Yeah, who cares if the kids get hurt, right?  They'll heal.  Great idea.


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## lmei007

XXV is 375 pounds but Mt. Vernon is 425 pounds.


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## lmei007

Suggest the cast iron stove manufacture to add one more functionality to the stove: safe box. Because it is heavy and we are always sitting close to it and watch it.


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## lmei007

Chris, where did you get those exhaut pipes? what's the max temperature those pipes need to resist? how do you report to your home insurance company? thanks


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## ensoll

People have sent me private messages asking for updates on the stove.  I answer their questions and in return only ask them to add their own impressions for others to read, but no one bothers.  As a result, I am no longer answering private questions.  Ask any questions through this forum only.  I am subscribed to this thread and will be notified.

Here is a recent email chain for those looking for an update.  It's long but comprehensive:

Hi Chris P.
I live on the North Shore in Mass and am thinking about
buying a new Mt Vernon AE.
How has that stove worked out for you?
I know they had some problems but have heard they fixed all the bugs and
are now shipping good units.
Is it quiet?
Heat well?
Does it use a reasonable amount of fuel or does it really use alot of it?
Are you happy with it?
Would you buy it again?
Oil is so expensive. It's always sticker shock whenever I get the bill.
Thanks alot for any help.
David T.

---

Hello Dave,

It has been one of the best purchases we've made for our house.  The programmable thermostat is key, even though it could be made a little better.  It has a 'prototype' or 'early design' feel to it in its functionality. Some features are a little clumsy to manage.  It's no big deal, though, it gets the job done and works dependably.  Once set up, you don't normally need to bother with it unless diverting from the normal programming (i.e., staying up late at night)

We cooked about 3 ton of high quality softwood pellet this winter and the stove worked flawlessly the whole time.  Every once in a while it gives us a "burnpot min temp" error, which implies it ran out of fuel, when it actually had plenty of fuel left.  We just hit the 'retry' button and everything came right back to life.  I guess a pellet can get lodged in there the wrong way and block traffic from getting through.  Unfortunately, sometimes it was after some time had passed and the house went down a few degrees in the interim.   I think the system is designed to retry automatically a few times, which leaves me puzzled that it works right away when we hit the 'retry' button.  I'm going to check with my dealer soon to see if there are any program updates available, as the manuf advises to do regularly.  Maybe they found a way to overcome the minpot temp glitch.

We clean the stove religiously once per week.  It could probably go two weeks but the cleaner the stove is, the more efficient it will run so I stay on top of it.  Cleaning takes about 10 minutes.

Other answers:

-Yes, the stove is very quiet.  It has a 'quiet' mode and a 'normal' mode.  Those terms are representative of actuality.
-Yes, the stove heats well.  That's not a difficult question for any stove, though.  They all publish the heat output ratings so you can size the stove to your needs.  I can tell you, though, that I can usually put my hand right on the chimney stack a couple of feet above the stove exhaust.  It is warm/hot, but not burning hot.  I really like that.
-Fuel usage is related directly to heat output and efficiency.  That's an easy comparison from brand to brand, however the Mt. Vernon is extremely efficient so this is moot (in other words, I wouldn't waste my time looking at other brands).  Take a good look at the design of the heat collection system in the Mt. Vernon.  Have the dealer pull it apart and show you.  You should be impressed.
-We would certainly buy one again, but we consider ourselves to be lucky to be able to afford one.  For the money they cost, they should work as well as ours has.

Lastly, we paid the extra ~$125 for the fake logs.  I don't recommend them.  One, they make cleaning the stove more trouble, and; Two, one of them chipped/broke just by bumping it inside the stove (when moving it to clean the stove) so now they are junk.  Money wasted.

Also, we highly recommend our dealer, All Basics Stove in Merrimack, NH.  They have been ideal.

Chris

---

Thanks for all the good info Chris.

I'm going to go with the AE.  My house is small.  I could get by with 40k btu's but I want some headroom just incase.  Plus this will be able to run at ~0.66 capacity and heat the house well, instead of having to run flat out.

And I like the multi-fuel capability, and the low noise.

I started looking at this unit, then read that it had some bugs.  So I looked around at others, educating myself, and always came back to this one.  I like the looks and my dealer ( in Danvers < 10 miles away ) has one coming in that I'm going to get a look at.

So it looks like my search is over.

BTW, from where do you order your pellets?  Do you have them delivered?  How much did you pay this year?  ( if you don't mind my asking  )

Thanks again,

David T.

---

Continued...


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## ensoll

continued from last posting...

---

You won't likely regret it (after swallowing the $ pill)

We got our pellets mostly from a local garden supply place.  They had a good selection and weekly incentives.  I looked for the brand that had the highest BTU/lb rating vs ash content vs $ and came up with a brand simply known as "Quality".  When they went on sale, I bought our whole years supply and got them as cheap as I could expect (forgot the amount, ~$220-230/ton).  The condition of the sale is that you pay cash and take them home yourself, no delivery.  I just dragged our trailer down there and brought them home 1000lbs at a time.  It was good exercise.  Besides, paying ~$50+ for delivery gives me heartburn.

Otherwise, Energex is a great brand.  We used some of it and that is what our dealer sells.  It was my second choice.  Next year, we might well end up using Energex.  That is how closely they compare.

Another thought, be sure to explore all of the options available for the stove at time of purchase.  All Basics didn't tell me about a kit you can buy that routes the exhaust to the rear-center of the stove.  By design, it exhausts off-center.  If you want a symmetrical look, you have to blow another $200 for the kit.  I wished for it and didn't learn it existed until reading the owners manual.  I was aggravated that I asked if there was anything else to consider for options with the stove and they said 'no'.  Then, I had to order it and wait for it to arrive, etc etc.  I guess any logical person wouldn't blow that kind of money on something frivolous like that, which is why they probably didn't even know it existed.

Chris

---

Hey thanks again Chris.

I will buy that kit.  No sense spoiling the looks of that stove with sloppy plumbing.

Now I can't wait till next fall when I can start burning pellets!


David T.

---

David,

Glad I could be of help.  Feel free to add some of your own impressions and experiences onto the thread at hearth.com.  It will really help others make the same decision you are facing, especially with this fuel crisis.  And last, but not least, Congratulations on your decision and new investment.  I believe you are making a very good choice.

Great chatting,

Chris

---

Will do Chris.

Thanks again,

David


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## EJRICH

Chris thanks for the info. It pretty much eased my mind as far as any concerns about the stove. I have been to a few places looking at other pellet stoves and after talking with them
they all said to stay away from the Mt Vernon. Of course, they are not Quadrafire dealers and I am sure they just wanted me to buy one of theirs.
 I will be going to purchase the stove today. Once the stove is up and running I will update its performance.

Eric


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## ensoll

Congrats Eric,

That is surprising to hear dealers speaking ill of the Mt. Vernon.  I would agree that it may well be for competitive reasons.  As I have probably stated before on this thread, I encourage everyone to look at other brands/models for their own comparison.  That is how we ended up with the Mt. Vernon.

After looking at the effort invested in the design and construction of this stove as well as the attention to detail, especially in comparison to other brands, we were confident that this was the best machine available to us and remain as such.

Chris


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## Pha1

I live in SE Mass, I recently put a deposit on a Harmon P68 as it was promised for an October install. Long story short, looks like I wont get it till maybe March of 09 now due to none in stock. Anyway, I did extensive research before I committed to this stove. Now that it seems I will have to look for another brand if I want one for this winter, the quad Mt Vernon AE is 2nd on my list. I am disappointed, but it is what it is. After a few days of trying to get some feedback on the Mt Vernon AE, this forum has given me a better feeling towards it. I am still a bit hesitant, as there is a bit of a loss BTU wise going with the Quad. I have a small cape house, no room on the 1st floor for a stove, so I will be putting it in the basement and do one of two things, or even both to get the heat to the 1st and second floor. There are already openings in the floor from a wood stove I took out of the basement back in 1990, I could re-open them to get some natural convection going, or I will run a small return duct down from my 2nd fl crawl space to the basement and draw heat and distribute it through the house via my AC unit on low speed ( I am a HVAC tech, so I can mange any control modifications etc to suit my needs). The basement is about 700 sq ft, as well as the 1st floor, 2nd fl is about 400 sq ft. So we are talking about 1800 sq ft. I only heat the house to 62 Deg all winter as we don’t like it any warmer. Assuming of course I can even get a hold of a Quad Mt Vernon AE any time soon. I am beating my self up, should I get one, or wait for the Harmon P68??? The Harmon seemed to be best for minimum maintenance that was one of the key features I was interested in. Any suggestions on local dealers in the Attleboro area. (I did read about the salesman tricking for Contact info 1st, then not providing a hard copy quote). Thanks for any feedback. I have 3 tons of pellets and no stove yet,,,,:{


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## slls

I ordered a Quad in June, might get it in August or September. If you can find a MV in stock that would be the way to go. I think you should wait for the P68, I don't think you will ever be happy with the MV, P68 being first choice.


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## webbie

Quad is getting backed up further now, and unless dealers are wrong......very few, if any, will be available until next year.


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## BrotherBart

Said it before and I say it again. Man there are going to be a bunch of pissed off people on this Forum from January-on. This is gonna get fugly, as Zeta would say.


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## jtp10181

If you don't want a black one, our warehouse has like 4 of each of the 3 colors sitting collecting dust. Although we might be selling those off pretty soon here. The black ones are back-ordered way out.


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## begreen

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Said it before and I say it again. Man there are going to be a bunch of pissed off people on this Forum from January-on. This is gonna get fugly, as Zeta would say.



Got that right BB. But if I were a betting man, I'd put my money on November being an ugly month. Right after the first oil bill. By January, we'll be hearing from the shoulda, woulda, coulda crowd.


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## ensoll

Pha1 said:
			
		

> Anyway, I did extensive research before I committed to this stove. Now that it seems I will have to look for another brand if I want one for this winter, the quad Mt Vernon AE is 2nd on my list. I am disappointed, but it is what it is. After a few days of trying to get some feedback on the Mt Vernon AE, this forum has given me a better feeling towards it. I am still a bit hesitant, as there is a bit of a loss BTU wise going with the Quad.



What evidence shows the Harman P68 extracts more BTU's than the AE?


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## Pha1

The product literature for the AE states “up to 60,000 BTU”
The Harmon product literate states “up to 68,000 BTU”


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## ensoll

Oh, I see. That isn't efficiency, that is heating capacity and given the size of your house, it sounds like either one would provide more than enough heat for you.  I've forgotten the actual figures so can't quote evidence, however.

Keep in mind that specifications published by manufacturers are generally obtained in laboratory conditions with optimization.  Real world results depend greatly on things like maintenance and cleaning, fuel used, etc.  My point with this is to be careful with getting tunnel vision on heating capacity and be sure to consider having to live with the thing as well.  When push comes to shove, you probably won't notice the difference between 68,000 and 60,000 BTU.  You will notice how often the auger jams, how much work is involved in keeping it loaded with pellets, how much work it is to clean it, installation challenges, repair frequency, etc.

I have no idea how the P68 compares to the AE in this light because one of the constraints of our search was to only consider traditional styled stoves, such as the Harman XXV.

Good luck in your search!


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## Pha1

I found a Mt vernon AE locally, but I gotta move fast if I want it. My head is spinning, do I wait another year for the Harmon, or get the MV AE and have it for this winter???? OHHHH GOD, what do I do? If I can be reasonably assured that I will be satisfied with the maintanace and component reliability of the MV AE compared to the harmon,,, I will jump on it and relieve this stress hahahahaha,,,, insert magic wand here,,,


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## ensoll

Obviously you are fixated on the Harman.  Why don't you start a thread of your own on the board and ask your question there?  This isn't a P68 thread.


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## Pha1

Thanks for the response, yes I am partial to the Harmon, but im looking for feedback on the MV AE as my 2nd option. Not feedback on the P68, hence the postings in this thread,,,, seems like the right thread to me to get feedback on the MV AE. Thankyou.


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## kenmjohnson

My wife and I purchased the Quardrafire Mt Vernon in September after researching pellet stoves for months.
We ended up with the insert with mahogany finish and must say it is quite the handsome appliance. As you walk through the entrance its the first thing folks notice and comment on. Being the first year with pellet in a 3200sqft open concept living area i can say that we are VERY pleased with our purchase. Me being more a form and function person where my wife leans toward the esthetics this stove satisfies both and both are thrilled about this addition to our decor. The first year is all about learning whether its the settings or the pellets used and keep a journal so I can review end of heating season and prepare for the next. I have just now entered the phase of manual mode run and calibrating(easy to do via thermostat) the pellet stove 1 degree below my furnace thermastat. They are both on the same time schedule as to when to come on and when to shutdown to 'night time' and 'away' tempatures. In doing this my oil furnace comes on and runs appx 15mins in the am and NEVER comes on again since the pellet stove came on at the same time running 1 degree below furnace cap. This allows the house to heat up to daytime temps rather quickly and safeguards against running out of pellets overnight (hasnt happend yet with temps in teens and 20;s)
We did have a power outage in a freak October storm and the Mt Vernon battery backup proved to be a great asset.
So to all those doing the same comparing and analysis on pellet stoves e.g. Harmon Vs Quadrafire - my vote is Quad hands down!!


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## Gooserider

Thanks for the update on this rather old thread...  It is nice to see how people's decisions worked out.

Gooserider


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## ensoll

We're up to four years now with this stove and all is well.  The main PC board died at some point, just barely within the warranty period.  Good thing because it was a $500 part.

A few weeks ago, the electric igniter element finally died for the first time at four years old.  It was around $50 to replace and required quite a bit of contorting, twisting and cussing, but next time won't be as difficult now that I've done it once.  I had to also temporarily remove the burn pot thermocouple to change the element wiring.

The only other noteworthy replacement was the cast iron baffle plate inside the stove.  I guess they had an early design flaw and it eventually formed a crack where the flame repeatedly licks.  This was replaced under warranty (just last weekend in fact).  Not a big deal.

All in all, the Mount Vernon AE has been a great purchase.  One thing I would greatly welcome would be a low pellet chirp alarm to let me know when more are needed.  Cold mornings really stink.


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## Gooserider

Hmmm....  Not a pellethead, so I don't follow most of these discussions, but I don't know of anyone making a low pellet alarm.  Would seem like it should be doable though, I can think of several possible approaches...

1. Optics - have an LED shoot a beam at a reflector on the side / bottom of the hopper, that bounces back to a photodetector - position the parts so that the reflector is exposed when the supply gets low...

2. Have a "follower" that sits on top of the pellets, with a switch that gets tripped by it when the level gets low - lots of options, probably simplest would be to put the switch in the lid, and attach the follower to it with a chain, so that it would trip when the pellets got low enough not to be able to support the follower...  

Regardless, the tricky part would be figuring out how to do the low level signal - once you have that it is trivial to feed the signal into an appropriate noise making circuit...

ex-Gooserider


----------



## BIGISLANDHIKERS

Gooserider said:
			
		

> Hmmm....  Not a pellethead, so I don't follow most of these discussions, but I don't know of anyone making a low pellet alarm.  Would seem like it should be doable though, I can think of several possible approaches...
> 
> 1. Optics - have an LED shoot a beam at a reflector on the side / bottom of the hopper, that bounces back to a photodetector - position the parts so that the reflector is exposed when the supply gets low...
> 
> 2. Have a "follower" that sits on top of the pellets, with a switch that gets tripped by it when the level gets low - lots of options, probably simplest would be to put the switch in the lid, and attach the follower to it with a chain, so that it would trip when the pellets got low enough not to be able to support the follower...
> 
> Regardless, the tricky part would be figuring out how to do the low level signal - once you have that it is trivial to feed the signal into an appropriate noise making circuit...
> 
> ex-Gooserider



LOL the quad control board has an icon that indicates when the pellets are low.  It doesnt work.  It says that they are low all the time.  I think the sensor on the hopper uses humidity or something.  Maybe one of your ideas would work better.


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## ensoll

The low pellet icon works fine on our controller however I have much better things to do than standing by watching for the 1/4" x 1/4" icon to light up.

As previously stated, the programmable controller on this stove could be a lot better in my humble opinion.  Granted, it was still better than anything else on the market (at the time anyway).  Unlike the Honeywell (and similar) programmable controllers available for oil/gas heating systems, this Quadrafire controller has a definite "homemade" or "prototype" feel to it.  I can't complain too much, though.  It's been doing its job for four years.


----------



## smoke show

I glance at mine every time I walk by.


----------

