# Muffler mod - 036



## Ashful (Jul 7, 2013)

Okay, guys, I'm ready to start mod'ing the mufflers on all my saws. Since the 036 is such a wimp, that's where I'd like to start! I know some of you love your 036's, and my local Stihl shop says mine is running great, but I just find it pathetically under-powered. Time to hang some balls on it!

Anyone got a diagram of the best mod's for this muffler? Should I run to the dealer and pick up a fresh muffler gasket, or anything else, before I start?

My big question, having spent years building hot rods, is what I'm giving up at lower RPM's, by opening her up? I'd watch guys put free-flowing exhaust on cars with intakes and cam's tuned for low RPM torque, and then wonder why their cars were slower. 

If this goes well, I'll be doing the 064 and T435, as well.


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## ScotO (Jul 7, 2013)

A general 'rule of thumb' is to make your total muffler outlet (I.E. port/ports) slightly smaller than the total area of your exhaust port coming out of the cylinder. So it's best to try and measure your exhaust port on the cylinder (using calipers if you can), and make the ports on your muffler a little smaller. Now, I know this isn't a scientific calculation, but you can get amazing results with it. You DON'T want your ported muffler outlet 'larger' than the outlet on the cylinder, as there will be ZERO back pressure on the motor......

I use small stainless steel pipes (1/2" I.D.), and shrink them down slightly with a ball been hammer on the anvil in my shop if they need to be made smaller. I put the shrunken end inside the muffler and weld them fast. Not only does it look good, but they sound fantastic!!


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## clemsonfor (Jul 7, 2013)

Wow slightly smaller than the outlet in the cyl!  I'm thinking the output on my 390 was like 1" x 3/4". I don't have near enough muffler output holes ! Even though I'm over 2 x what the factory ones are.


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## MasterMech (Jul 7, 2013)

clemsonfor said:


> Wow slightly smaller than the outlet in the cyl! I'm thinking the output on my 390 was like 1" x 3/4". I don't have near enough muffler output holes ! Even though I'm over 2 x what the factory ones are.


 
What the engine can tolerate and what your ears can tolerate are two different things for sure.  Your kinda limited on how much room you have to play under that front cover on your 390.  Remember, the center rectangle is off limits unless you really want to make some noise.  Might be better off figuring out a side port somewhere but the plastic chassis on the MS390 could make that a challenge.

Joful, check out Boog's muffler surgery results.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/added-a-simple-dual-port-to-my-036s-muffler.106856/


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## Ashful (Jul 7, 2013)

Just found this...

http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/182577.htm

I'll have to check and see if there's a factory or aftermarket dual port I can just buy and bolt on.


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## MasterMech (Jul 7, 2013)

Joful said:


> Just found this...
> 
> http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/182577.htm
> 
> I'll have to check and see if there's a factory or aftermarket dual port I can just buy and bolt on.


 
No such critter to the best of my knowledge.  I looked for my 034 but I already have the early style muffler on it.


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## Ashful (Jul 7, 2013)

Yep... I seem to be finding the same.  Will have to pull the muffler this week, and see what I'm dealing with.  Seems there are many different internal configurations reported on the forums for the 036.


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## MasterMech (Jul 7, 2013)

Joful said:


> Yep... I seem to be finding the same. Will have to pull the muffler this week, and see what I'm dealing with. Seems there are many different internal configurations reported on the forums for the 036.


 
Basically maximum power is achieved by gutting the can and opening up total port size to 80% of the engines exhaust port area.


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## smokinj (Jul 7, 2013)

At best your going to pick up 5 percent. If its not enough grape another saw!


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## MasterMech (Jul 7, 2013)

smokinj said:


> At best your going to pick up 5 percent. If its not enough grape another saw!


That might be true for a saw that was pretty decent to begin with but there are saws like the MS290, 310, and 390 that greatly benefit from some extra breathing room.

I wouldn't expect a massive difference on Joful's 036 but it should sound better at the very least.


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## smokinj (Jul 7, 2013)

Some models need it 460 darn sure did....anything with an o to start with is pretty good.


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## Ashful (Jul 7, 2013)

I just can't figure this one out. This thing doesn't cut as well as my old Echo 510 EVL, and the Echo is a smaller cc saw. This has much higher chain speed, but that's useless, as chain speed drops as soon as you put it to the log. I believe I already confirmed it has the stock sprocket, but will check that again.

I took it to the local Stihl dealer / shop, a second-generation shop that does a TON of work for the local arborists, and they seem to think it runs as good as any 036 they've seen. These guys have a dozen or more saw repairs go thru their shop every day, so they seem to know their stuff.


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## smokinj (Jul 7, 2013)

Lets check off the basic first. What are you cutting size of bar and chain you running?


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## clemsonfor (Jul 7, 2013)

That 036 ought to do good nuff. My 390 ought to be about the same or similar urs maybe even better. My 390 with a sharp chain will throw pretty big chips and cut an 18" log as fast as a firewood cutter would need. I do wish I had more power when cutting 20"+ stuff where the whole bar is burried.
Put an 18" bar on it and it will scream.


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## clemsonfor (Jul 7, 2013)

That 036 ought to do good nuff. My 390 ought to be about the same or similar urs maybe even better. My 390 with a sharp chain will throw pretty big chips and cut an 18" log as fast as a firewood cutter would need. I do wish I had more power when cutting 20"+ stuff where the whole bar is burried.
Put an 18" bar on it and it will scream.


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## DexterDay (Jul 7, 2013)

I have a minty 026 if your looking for a nicer smaller saw to trade on? This saw has a nice Muff Mod. Runs great with full rebuild. Only 2 tanks since... 

The 036/360 platform is one the best from Stihl. Some will argue the 044, but I don't want that much weight and I run a 18" on my 036 Pro. 

Here is a pic if you are interested in getting rid of it, rather than Moding. T
My 036 is the ONLY saw that is completely stock. No muff mod, no nothing. Only did the 460 because I have a 32" and use it for BIG wood.


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## clemsonfor (Jul 7, 2013)

Wow that 026 looks mint!


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## DexterDay (Jul 7, 2013)

It's looking for a new home?


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## Ashful (Jul 7, 2013)

That 026 is purdy, Dexter, but no way am I running a limber like that for my mid-size saw! I'd be trading the 036 for an 044, if anything at all.

I'm running a 20" bar with 33RSC (3/8" 0.050") chain on the 036, which I feel it _should _handle well. I do spend more time with the nose buried than not, as it seems I've lately become the guy friends call when they have a 40"+ tree they want down or gone. When I'm going to be cutting a bunch of big stuff, I just grab the 064, but I'd like to use the 036 more than I do.


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## DexterDay (Jul 7, 2013)

Tu Chet... Big wood needs Big saws.

And although the 036 says it can wear a 24"? I say an 18"-20" is its home. When cutting wood where the tip is outside of the wood. .


(Congrats on the lil one. She is a cutie)


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## MasterMech (Jul 7, 2013)

Joful said:


> I just can't figure this one out. This thing doesn't cut as well as my old Echo 510 EVL, and the Echo is a smaller cc saw. This has much higher chain speed, but that's useless, as chain speed drops as soon as you put it to the log. I believe I already confirmed it has the stock sprocket, but will check that again.
> 
> I took it to the local Stihl dealer / shop, a second-generation shop that does a TON of work for the local arborists, and they seem to think it runs as good as any 036 they've seen. These guys have a dozen or more saw repairs go thru their shop every day, so they seem to know their stuff.


 
Wanna race it against my 034? I've got a nice Oak log to run a 20" bar thru. If you can't tie or beat the 034 then I'd say you have a problem.

Have you ever checked the compression? If so, what did it pull?


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## smokinj (Jul 8, 2013)

Check your rakers hieght could be running to low!


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## aansorge (Jul 8, 2013)

Also, do you keep your air cleaner clean?  This makes a huge difference in power.


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## Ashful (Jul 8, 2013)

Brand new OEM filter, blown clean with air gun at each chain swap.  Running brand new Stihl 33RSC or Husqvarna equivalent.  Haven't had this saw long enough to sharpen a chain yet!


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## smokinj (Jul 8, 2013)

Joful said:


> Brand new OEM filter, blown clean with air gun at each chain swap. Running brand new Stihl 33RSC or Husqvarna equivalent. Haven't had this saw long enough to sharpen a chain yet!


 
BIGGER SAW! 064 comes to mind......


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## clemsonfor (Jul 8, 2013)

my cousin has an 026 but i never really messed with it much. I did a bit before i knew what i was doing. Whats the rubber grommit on the top of the saw?


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## Ashful (Jul 8, 2013)

Maybe I should put a 24" bar on the 064, make that my mid-size saw, and buy an 880 to run the bigger bars.


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## clemsonfor (Jul 8, 2013)

Are you comparing it to the 064?  If so there is going to be no comparison. 
When i grab that 026 its way lighter and even with a sharp chain comes no where close to what my 390 can do when cutting big logs.


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## smokinj (Jul 8, 2013)

clemsonfor said:


> Are you comparing it to the 064? If so there is going to be no comparison.
> When i grab that 026 its way lighter and even with a sharp chain comes no where close to what my 390 can do when cutting big logs.


 
That 20 inch bar should fit too.....


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## MasterMech (Jul 8, 2013)

Joful said:


> Maybe I should put a 24" bar on the 064, make that my mid-size saw, and buy an 880 to run the bigger bars.


 

You're kinda stuck  in limbo with the 064.  It's not quite an 066/MS660 but it's more than an 046/MS460.  No matter what saws you have, you're always going to wonder if the next one up/down would have been better.

Jay will tell you, the 880 is quite the specialist machine.  Not a saw that everyone can use on a regular basis.  I know you get into some big trunks fairly regular but certainly nothing that an MS660 or your 064 would struggle with.

Muffler modding the 036 isn't a bad idea.  You won't be giving up low-end if you do it right.  Think of it not so much as a cam/head swap (trade-offs in torque/hp @ rpm) and more like installing a set of FlowMaster Super 40's on an otherwise healthy small-block v8.  Power gains will be mild, sound quality should become more aggressive, but the engine should overall run cooler and stronger as a result.


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## HittinSteel (Jul 8, 2013)

I had a stock 036 once and was not impressed.....also had a 262XP I thought was overhyped.

A muffler mod should certainly help. If not you may need to move to a 70cc saw like I did for running a 20" bar.


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## Ashful (Jul 8, 2013)

clemsonfor said:


> Are you comparing it to the 064? If so there is going to be no comparison.


 

Well, mostly, I'm comparing it to my smaller 50cc Echo 510 EVL. It's frustrating that this 62cc saw stops in every cut a dozen times, requiring me to lift it out and get chain speed back up, when my 50cc Echo almost never does this. However, I'm running the full chisel on the 036, and always ran semi-chisel on the Echo, so that's one difference worth exploring.

That said, it is my opinion that all of my saws should cut at roughly the same speed, but with different size bars. The 036 with a smaller 20" bar damn well better keep up with the 064 wearing a big bar!

A 70cc saw is tempting, but I like my 064, and don't see the point in having a second saw so close in weight. I really like having a 50 - 60 cc saw for carrying around / general purpose use.


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## smokinj (Jul 8, 2013)

Does not work like that. That's why I run 460 and 192t. Why would you not bring your favorite to the party as often as possibly.


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## Ashful (Jul 8, 2013)

smokinj said:


> Why would you not bring your favorite to the party as often as possibly.


 
Lack of decompression valve! 

Actually, I always figure the less hours I spend with the 064 in my hands, the less likely I am to kill myself with it. I can cut all day with a smaller saw, without getting nearly as tired. The 064 is fun, but it does make me tired. Most accidents happen when you're tired. I probably grab my 7-pound T435 most frequently of all my saws!

_edit:  just Googled "Stihl highest power to weight ratio," and several of the links referred to my beloved 064!  Here's one:  _http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/163734.htm


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## smokinj (Jul 8, 2013)

There you have it. If your carting a 064. Other than busting a trunk I would say the same. I have bars from 20 to 32 for my 460 its the best saw for me so I run it 90 percent.


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## Ashful (Jul 9, 2013)

Well, I'll spend a little more time with this 036, but I'm going to keep my eyes open for a 4xx/04x saw, or even a second 064 to run with a short bar.  I guess I just don't have the patience that cutting with an 036 requires.  :lol:

I watch the vids of 036's on YouTube, but all of the ones I've seen show guys cutting 8" - 10" rounds.  I haven't tried this saw on a whole lot of small stuff like that, or taken the opportunity to actually time it, but I think it would cut about the speed of those demos.


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## fox9988 (Jul 9, 2013)

I have similar saws. An 036 (stock) and an Echo CS-510 (MM). Both with full chisel 20". The Echo is impressive, feels like it has better power/weight ratio. That being said, the 036 definitely has more power. Stopping many times in the cut? Not mine buried in oak. What size sprocket is on the 036?


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## DexterDay (Jul 9, 2013)

If it has an 8 pin rim? Its possible it would stop like that? 

 As Jay said, it may be the Rakers? Have you tried a new RSC chain?  Or have you just used the chain that came with it? 

Does it four stroke well at wide open throttle? Then clear up in the cut?


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## Ashful (Jul 9, 2013)

Dexter:  Yep, I had a brand new out of the box 33RSC on it at the beginning of this thread.  Then I swapped it for a brand new out of the box Husqvarna chain, whatever their equivalent to the 33RSC is.

Okay, so I had a cord or two of 12" - 18" ash and maple trees to buck [1], and decided this would be a good test for the 036.  To date, I've only been using this saw with rounds over 24", mostly ripping (not noodling, but straight ripping) these 1000+ lb. rounds to halve or quarter them, before muscling them onto the splitter.  Clearly not this saw's forte, and my comments about it grabbing and stopping in the cut were all with regard to full nose-buried cutting of big stuff, as that's mostly what I seem to get these days.

Bucking up stuff under 14", this saw flies!  Definitely one of the higher chain speed saws I've run, and in 10" Maple, it has no problems keeping the chain speed up.  I'd say even up to 16" diameter, it does very well.  At 18", I see it slowing noticeably, but it still does respectfully.  When I get to the full length of the 20" bar, such as the piece in the photo below, the saw is a dog.

The answer:  I should have put an *18" bar* on this saw.  I was thinking a 62cc saw should handle a 20" bar well, but it just doesn't do well with a 20" bar buried to the nose.  Unfortunately, I bought a new solid pro sprocket tip bar and about a mile of 33RSC chain for this saw, so I'll have to decide whether it's worth spending the coin to switch down to 18".  I do spend a lot of time with the nose buried in bigger stuff, and while the 064 does well with the big stuff, it would be nice to be able to keep working with this saw when it's already in my hands.

I did have some fun drop-starting this saw, something I don't think I'll try with the 064.  The 036 has a decomp valve, although I find it's not necessary, and almost never remember to push it!

[1] - https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/free-ash-delivered.111040/


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## Ashful (Jul 9, 2013)

The crotch that made this saw bog. I cut it the way the bar is oriented, as a test.





I think the solution to my wanting a shorter bar, but already owning this one plus lots of chain, is to just put some BIG DOGS on this little saw!


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## DexterDay (Jul 9, 2013)

I run 18" mainly and with Big Digs, so I prob have close to just 16" of bar. But, I try and keep the logs under 16". When I buy a log load, that's my limit and the seller knows it. 

I have kept one of these, and even the one with small Digs, left with Big Dogs on it. Looks sexy


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## Ashful (Jul 9, 2013)

Okay, Dexter, I think that's my answer.  Where'd you get those dogs?


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## DexterDay (Jul 10, 2013)

FleaBay... There are a couple out there. Some are 4 Dog, some 5. Some thicker, and some have a chain catch that goes between inner and outer Dog. Some are painted, some powder coated. 

There are several Nice sets out there. Stihl makes there own. They come in the MS 460 R from the factory. I dont know the Part #, but do know they make them.


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## HittinSteel (Jul 10, 2013)

20" hardwood? Ported 372 with a 20" bar for me please.

I must cut like you Joful, I like to lean on a saw and make chips.


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## Ashful (Jul 10, 2013)

Yeah, I have zero patience for an underpowered saw.  If there's not mulch-sized chips flying off the saw, you're cutting too slow!

Dex:  I was looking at the ones on eBay yesterday, and saw the 5- and 4-tooth versions, but had trouble telling the good heavy ones from the junk!


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## DexterDay (Jul 10, 2013)

I got one pair from DRZ Chainsaw and 2 from Customchaindaws (I think that is the sellers name?).  All 3 are pretty close to the same.

I had an extra set and just got rid of them not to long ago.


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## smokinj (Jul 10, 2013)

Those big dawgs sure makes them go faster!


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## Thistle (Jul 10, 2013)

Did someone mention big dawgs?   Those 9" monsters on the SP125 I dont even have to lean on.Its not a saw that my 170lb slowly aging body would want to use all day now though.....


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## Ashful (Jul 10, 2013)

smokinj said:


> Those big dawgs sure makes them go faster!


 

In my case, yes! Only cuz they shorten the bar to something the saw can better handle, tho. 

I spent more time bucking with the 036 tonight, and I'm actually starting to like this saw. It has excellent chain speed, and decent power in a 12" round. As long as I keep the tip out of the log, it actually cuts pretty fast.


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## smokinj (Jul 10, 2013)

Bigger dawg are slower!


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## Ashful (Jul 10, 2013)

smokinj said:


> Bigger dawg are slower!


 

Educate me, Jay!  I figure any dogs on a saw this small is probably not too sensible, since it doesn't really have the kind of power required to pivot on the dogs when cutting, but I'm looking for a quick way to shorten my bar, without dropping coin on all new chains and a bar.  Maybe I've got my head up my arse, though.


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## MasterMech (Jul 11, 2013)

You could always get the bar and cut your existing chains down to size.


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## smokinj (Jul 11, 2013)

20 still fine just need smaller rounds....DAWGS do nothing. Of. Shorting the bar its still the same length. You just lose workable space.


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## Ashful (Jul 11, 2013)

My figuring is that when I bury the nose, I'll have less chain in the log, but probably only 1" difference with small vs big dogs.

I'll pick up an 18" B&C, to feel the difference, and decide which I like.  I can always sell the other on eBay.  I'll have to see what my shop charges for shortening a bunch of chains, and decide if its worth it!


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## smokinj (Jul 11, 2013)

Joful said:


> My figuring is that when I bury the nose, I'll have less chain in the log, but probably only 1" difference with small vs big dogs.
> 
> I'll pick up an 18" B&C, to feel the difference, and decide which I like. I can always sell the other on eBay. I'll have to see what my shop charges for shortening a bunch of chains, and decide if its worth it!


 
18 is not worth it. Look at 16 and your going to have a strong saw. That's how I ran my 361 and once your out of bar move up to the bigger saw.


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## MasterMech (Jul 11, 2013)

smokinj said:


> 18 is not worth it. Look at 16 and your going to have a strong saw. That's how I ran my 361 and once your out of bar move up to the bigger saw.


I currently have a 16" on my 034.  I know it will run the 20 just fine but I really like that little bar on there!

Joful, I imagine that burying the nose makes more difference than the 2" of straight bar. Straight 2 inches is what, 2 cutters? Probably at least 2x that in play going around the nose.


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## smokinj (Jul 11, 2013)

MasterMech said:


> I currently have a 16" on my 034. I know it will run the 20 just fine but I really like that little bar on there!
> 
> Joful, I imagine that burying the nose makes more difference than the 2" of straight bar. Straight 2 inches is what, 2 cutters? Probably at least 2x that in play going around the nose.


 
Hes used to saw chips flying to me the only way to make a 60cc saw kick @ss like an 064 would be a 16inch. Makes that saw a blast to run. I got rid of mine to roll with the 192t its just a lot light and the micro chain make it a no brainer for me. I just trying to get my 460 into the action as quick as possible.


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## Ashful (Jul 11, 2013)

Good idea!  I should step my T435 down to 12" (it came with 14"), the 036 to 16", and the 064 at 28"!


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## smokinj (Jul 11, 2013)

Joful said:


> Good idea! I should step my T435 down to 12" (it came with 14"), the 036 to 16", and the 064 at 28"!


 
I like your thinking!  The right size wood drop your 064 to that 20inch and you will have a set-up for pure grunt!


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## Bocefus78 (Jul 11, 2013)

I like my 12" on my 192t. It keeps you from trying to cut stuff that the 361 should be into.


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## smokinj (Jul 11, 2013)

Bocefus78 said:


> I like my 12" on my 192t. It keeps you from trying to cut stuff that the 361 should be into.


 
I am kind of the other side. I like the 14 inch and skip the 361 all together, but a couple 036,360,361,362 on a crew never hurt anything. I just prefer either using the very lightest saw or having the extra horse power of the big saw. I do run a 20,28,32 on the 460 though.


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## Ashful (Jul 11, 2013)

smokinj said:


> I like your thinking!  The right size wood drop your 064 to that 20inch and you will have a set-up for pure grunt!



No need to go 20" on that saw!  That 064 maintains full chain speed on the 28" bar with the nose buried and me leaning on it pretty hard.


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## MasterMech (Jul 12, 2013)

Joful said:


> No need to go 20" on that saw!  That 064 maintains full chain speed on the 28" bar with the nose buried and me leaning on it pretty hard.


Sounds like it needs more cowbell. Err, sprocket that is!


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## ScotO (Jul 12, 2013)

MasterMech said:


> Sounds like it needs more cowbell. Err, sprocket that is!


Yeah, maybe one like this!!  :D

http://item.mobileweb.ebay.com/viewitem?index=0&sbk=1&nav=SEARCH&itemId=290529417597


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## Ashful (Jul 12, 2013)

No way, guys... I ain't touching that 064!  It's the only one I own that I'm truly happy with, right now.

I'd be more likely to go the other way, and put a smaller sprocket on the 036.


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## smokinj (Jul 12, 2013)

Joful said:


> No need to go 20" on that saw! That 064 maintains full chain speed on the 28" bar with the nose buried and me leaning on it pretty hard.


 
Its just easier to swing a 20 in tighter spaces. Just depends on the job. 460 with a 20 inch bar and full comp its rooster tails and great bedding for the chix's...


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## ScotO (Jul 12, 2013)

Hey while we are on the subject of saws, I just picked up an 046 for 60 clams.......

It needs a P/C and a rear handle/tank assy, but it'll make a good winter.project.....


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## smokinj (Jul 12, 2013)

Scotty Overkill said:


> Hey while we are on the subject of saws, I just picked up an 046 for 60 clams.......
> 
> It needs a P/C and a rear handle/tank assy, but it'll make a good winter.project.....


 
Now you have room for 700 in parts......


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## clemsonfor (Jul 12, 2013)

and another tangent.

A logger i know, i asked about old saws.  He said he had some 372's i was asking about old saws. I think he will give them to me. I was thinking of getting them and rebuilding at least one. I think they may need P/C but did not ask the details of why they are now junk/parts saws.


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## smokinj (Jul 12, 2013)

clemsonfor said:


> and another tangent.
> 
> A logger i know, i asked about old saws. He said he had some 372's i was asking about old saws. I think he will give them to me. I was thinking of getting them and rebuilding at least one. I think they may need P/C but did not ask the details of why they are now junk/parts saws.


 
Logger's just wear out a 70 cc saw very quick. 90cc where they need to be.


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## DexterDay (Jul 12, 2013)

Ive got a $100 bill in my pocket right now if you wanted to get rid of one  (seriously)


clemsonfor said:


> and another tangent.
> 
> A logger i know, i asked about old saws.  He said he had some 372's i was asking about old saws. I think he will give them to me. I was thinking of getting them and rebuilding at least one. I think they may need P/C but did not ask the details of why they are now junk/parts saws.


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## clemsonfor (Jul 12, 2013)

smokinj said:


> Logger's just wear out a 70 cc saw very quick. 90cc where they need to be.


 Not really around here. They mostly cut pine and a 30" butt is pretty large. 28"s inside bark is really the limits of most mills around here. They mostly trimm to length or trim trucks with the saws.


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## smokinj (Jul 12, 2013)

clemsonfor said:


> Not really around here. They mostly cut pine and a 30" butt is pretty large. 28"s inside bark is really the limits of most mills around here. They mostly trimm to length or trim trucks with the saws.


 
Guess I always have my head around our timber. Its big and hardwood and private own land. There's a lot of cuts to just one tree. Most logging truck are full with 3 trees.


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## mikefrommaine (Jul 12, 2013)

DexterDay said:


> Ive got a $100 bill in my pocket right now if you wanted to get rid of one  (seriously)


I've got a $100 bill and a George Washington.


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## smokinj (Jul 12, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> I've got a $100 bill and a George Washington.


 
I will double down with 2 yards!


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## StihlHead (Jul 12, 2013)

smokinj said:


> Logger's just wear out a 70 cc saw very quick. 90cc where they need to be.


 
Not around here either. The 440 and the 372 are the saws of choice in the PNW, hands down. They do typically wear them out in a year and buy new ones, but I do not know anyone that run 80-90cc saw around these parts out in the woods. I rarely see any 660s or 395s out there. A few more 460s again now that the 440s are gone again, but the 460s are gone now too. Few ever liked the 441s much around here. 372s are getting to be more common. Typical setup here is a 70cc saw with a 28 or 32 inch bar, wearing full skip full chisel loops. They are used for falling as well as limbing. The main money trees here are Doug firs, but many stands have other money trees like hemlocks and red cedar in them, as well as alders. The size varies considerably on the age of the stand, mostly from 2-4 feet DBH. The trash trees here are hardwoods; white oak, bigleaf maple, and madrone. They are dispatched easily enough with a 70cc saw.


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## Ashful (Jul 12, 2013)

StihlHead said:


> ...A few more 460s again now that the 440s are gone again, but the 460s are gone now too. Few ever liked the 441s much around here. 372s are getting to be more common...


 

Way to go Stihl!    Brilliant marketing.


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## StihlHead (Jul 13, 2013)

Stihl marketing has nothing to do with the removal of the 440 from the US market (twice now), or the 460, the 361, or the two models (71cc and 74cc) of the 372xp/w. The US EPA laws forced the issue, as well as the EU AV laws (440 and 460, the others already passed on AV). As for the 441, I do not know what they were thinking, but it was always a dud here in the PNW in number of sales. For that reason the 461 is rubber mounted and not on springs. I do not know why they could not get the springs better on the 441 or revise them on the 461, like they are on the MS361 or the 372xp. I have not seen many 461s out there, and the local dealer does not carry them due to the high price.

Comparing the dealer prices, the 372 and 576 are cheaper than the 441 or 461, and on Ebay you can get them for a lot less. Here the 441 goes for just under a grand (all M-tronic now), and the 461 lists for over a grand. These used to be $600-700 saws, now they are a thousand. All thanks to the EPA... though Husky has the new 365 x-torque which has virtually the same 71cc engine as the 372xp x-torque which can easily be modified to be the same as the 372xp, and it is over $100 less. So I think that Husky at least has figured out the better price point market for the 60-70cc EPA saws, whereas Stihl has not. The 440 was a great saw, as was the 361. As for the 036... should be a good saw, but if you are used to more power, maybe not. It should be easy enough to open up the muffler on those. I use my stock 361s far more than any of my other saws. I would like to find an 034 Super (60cc predecessor of the 036/360), but that has been a hard one to hunt down.


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## ScotO (Jul 13, 2013)

I was cruising ebay last evening looking for a P/C kit for that 046 and someone had a P/C set that they claim would make that saw equivalent to the 066 magnum.....anyone ever hear of this? Now, bear in mind fellas.....I've built LOTS AND LOTS of the old magnesium bodied saws, but not a whole lot of these more 'modern' saws......

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BIG-BORE-54...722?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f2083af92

If that kit is for real, I may have to look into it..Yes it's a Chinese kit, not a Stihl kit, but I don't want to be 700 bucks into that saw either.......I did pick up a Chinese knock-off case for my 372XP the other day on fleabay, we'll have a thread when it arrives and when I get a chance to put that back together (it'll be a while, lots of tree work lined up right now)......

I'll be putting a signature "Overkill" port job on the XP also, maybe even do a little port work while it's apart (match port, I don't have the tools for Woods porting yet).


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## mikefrommaine (Jul 13, 2013)

smokinj said:


> I will double down with 2 yards!


Ok, I'll admit I had to google that.


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## mikefrommaine (Jul 13, 2013)

Scotty Overkill said:


> I was cruising ebay last evening looking for a P/C kit for that 046 and someone had a P/C set that they claim would make that saw equivalent to the 066 magnum.....anyone ever hear of this? Now, bear in mind fellas.....I've built LOTS AND LOTS of the old magnesium bodied saws, but not a whole lot of these more 'modern' saws......
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/BIG-BORE-54...722?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f2083af92
> 
> ...


That price seems a little too good... to be a quality long term option.  Though I haven't seen much negative about that company on the interwebs.


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## MasterMech (Jul 13, 2013)

Scotty,

I have some thoughts on the subject.  As you may remember I built two MS460s recently from the ground up and one of them is a 54mm Chinese top end kit like the one you linked to.  It ain't gonna magically turn into an 066 for ya but the kits aren't junk either. The build threads are linked in my sig.

The nikasil kits are very good indeed.  Longevity should be close to OEM but there are usually some differences in port size.  Enough so that I could spot most of them by eye.   They run good out of the box but I bet if you widened the ports wether by grinder or file, as far as the piston will allow, the saw would run pretty darn decent.  

They make kits that include a dual port muffler as well but I'm sure you have your own plan for that.  

There was a guy selling OEM back handle assemblies for $100.  Hard to beat that for sure.  Both me and Boog got one for our saws.


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## MasterMech (Jul 14, 2013)

Scotty Overkill said:


> someone had a P/C set that they claim would make that saw equivalent to the 066 magnum.....anyone ever hear of this?


 
Would be kind of hard to do since the 066 has 4mm of stroke over the 046.  The bore is indeed 54mm on the 066 however. (046 = 52mm x 36mm, 066M = 54mm x 40mm)

http://www.getsaws.com/S_specs.html


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## ScotO (Jul 14, 2013)

MasterMech said:


> Would be kind of hard to do since the 066 has 4mm of stroke over the 046.  The bore is indeed 54mm on the 066 however. (046 = 52mm x 36mm, 066M = 54mm x 40mm)
> 
> http://www.getsaws.com/S_specs.html


i knew the stroke was a little deeper on the 066/660, but the big bore kit gives you the same bore.   Should make for a good runner when i get it done.  Il probably buy that kit, now im on the hunt for a back handle..........


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## mikefrommaine (Jul 15, 2013)

To get back to Joful's original topic -- muffler mod and power gain.

There is a guy over on AS that built a chainsaw dyno. He showed a 20% HP gain with a dual port vs a single port on a 046. 3.426 HP to the bar vs 4.13 with the dual port.

Edit/ those numbers were for a rebuilt ms460


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## smokinj (Jul 15, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> To get back to Joful's original topic -- muffler mod and power gain.
> 
> There is a guy over on AS that built a chainsaw dyno. He showed a 20% HP gain with a dual port vs a single port on a 046. 3.426 HP to the bar vs 4.13 with the dual port.


 
Both those numbers seem very low for an 046. Any how if you can get 20 percent with an extra hole by all means drill.


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## mikefrommaine (Jul 15, 2013)

The number do seem low. Maybe the testing methods are different. But the gain with the dual port is bigger than I would have expected.

Here is the dyno build thread


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## ScotO (Jul 15, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> The number do seem low. Maybe the testing methods are different. But the gain with the dual port is bigger than I would have expected.
> 
> Here is the dyno build thread


Wonder why the rim drive at the test end of the dyno is so big?  I'm guessing that is why the HP numbers are low.....
Maybe if he had a rim that was more in line with the actual diameter of the bar sprocket, he'd get different numbers......just a guess, though.  I didn't go all the way through the thread.  Either way, very cool homebuilt dyno, there!


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## smokinj (Jul 15, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> The number do seem low. Maybe the testing methods are different. But the gain with the dual port is bigger than I would have expected.
> 
> Here is the dyno build thread


 
Cool rig for sure and that's a 460. I would expect at-least 10 percent. Stock muffler is about the size of a pencil.


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## mikefrommaine (Jul 15, 2013)

There are a couple different build threads over there. One of the explained the reasoning for the setup. I don't remember the details but I know he is measuring the pounds of pressure applied to the end of a 1 foot bar. It's all a little over my head lol. But I think it does give a good baseline for measuring gains from various mods.


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## smokinj (Jul 15, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> There are a couple different build threads over there. One of the explained the reasoning for the setup. I don't remember the details but I know he is measuring the pounds of pressure applied to the end of a 1 foot bar. It's all a little over my head lol. But I think it does give a good baseline for measuring gains from various mods.





mikefrommaine said:


> There are a couple different build threads over there. One of the explained the reasoning for the setup. I don't remember the details but I know he is measuring the pounds of pressure applied to the end of a 1 foot bar. It's all a little over my head lol. But I think it does give a good baseline for measuring gains from various mods.


 



Seems and I don't know but you would want to run the test maybe 20 times and get an average. But, he pick the best saw to see some big gains on...(And that's heading Modds in the right direction) I like it....


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## mikefrommaine (Jul 15, 2013)

Scotty Overkill said:


> Wonder why the rim drive at the test end of the dyno is so big?


He said that he used a 24t sprocket to keep the hydraulic pump below 4000 rpm to prevent cavitation.  Wonder if that is why his numbers are different than those published by Stihl?


Or maybe manufacturers use theoretical, or gasp, inflated numbers like the lawn mower makers did.


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## Foragefarmer (Jul 15, 2013)

I would think that when saw companies are stating horsepower they are using a measurement of shaft horsepower vs horsepower to the chain and the resulting mechanical loss of horsepower that results. That being said; the difference in advertised horsepower and the results from the test stand seem to be too divergent for mechanical loss alone.


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## MasterMech (Jul 15, 2013)

He's definitely losing power to heat and inefficiency of the hydraulic pump but for before and after comparisons plus model to model comparisons, the data is good!  Only absolute HP numbers would require the dyno to be "calibrated".  Sprocket size doesn't affect anything HP-wise, does your truck make less HP in 1st gear than it does in 2nd?  Didn't think so.

Somebody here did a pretty good photoshoot of the Dual-port mufflers vs the standard US muffler for the MS460.  Can't remember who it was, don't think they posted here often.....  

Found it! 
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/dual-port-mufflers-a-comparison.105336/


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