# Vent-Free Propane Heater for back bedroom?



## zanp

Live in a 3 bedroom log cabin and heat it with a wood stove insert.  The wife and I are planning to move to the downstairs bedroom since we have another little one on the way.  This bedroom does not get much of the heat from the wood stove so I need to figure out an alternative heat source for this room.  

It has baseboard heat but I don't like baseboard.  Lowes is starting to put their vent-free propane heaters on sale and I am considering buying a 10K BTU unit for the back bedroom.  I will purchase a 100lb propane tank as my source of propane.

Questions?
-Are these units considered safe?
-If the propane tank is going to be on the outside wall adjacent to where the heater is, can I buy a 4' gas line kit for easy connection to the propane tank (w/ two stage regulator) or do I need to hire a licensed plumber?
-What is another heat source I should consider?


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## semipro

I don't like them.  Perfect combustion puts out CO and H20.  Imperfect combustion adds a little CO to that.   Perfect combustion is unlikely.

I would not recommend running one in a house that's anywhere near tight.  I believe the directions that come with them even recommend cracking a window to supply fresh air.  

The H20 output can be substantial enough to cause windows to fog also.  That much water is not good for any house.


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## Shari

Are you saying you have a 2-story (or 1-1/2 story) house with 2 bedrooms upstairs and one bedroom on the first floor?  Or is this 3rd bedroom in the basement?


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## zanp

Two story log cabin.  Two bedrooms upstairs that are heated nicely with the wood stove.  Wood stove on 1st floor with cathedral ceiling connected to second floor.  

The 3rd bedroom (the one we want to move into) is on the first floor.  It is typically colder than the rest of the house.  

Our house is not tight at all and we run a humidfier to add moisture from the wood stove dry heat.  

If the propane heater is not ideal, what are our alternatives?  I would prefer something with a thermostat.


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## semipro

zanp said:
			
		

> Two story log cabin.  Two bedrooms upstairs that are heated nicely with the wood stove.  Wood stove on 1st floor with cathedral ceiling connected to second floor.
> 
> The 3rd bedroom (the one we want to move into) is on the first floor.  It is typically colder than the rest of the house.
> 
> Our house is not tight at all and we run a humidfier to add moisture from the wood stove dry heat.
> 
> If the propane heater is not ideal, what are our alternatives?  I would prefer something with a thermostat.



Well your application may be a suitable one then if you need the moisture.  I'd suggest that you have a good CO meter in place though.

I always consider a direct vent gas appliance a better option though.  There is little chance of indoor air contamination. 

There have also been some posts here about "ductless" heat pumps.  You may want to consider that.  

Good luck.


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## Shari

I am learning more towards getting the heated air you already have moving where you want it.  Having you tried using a small floor fan pulling cold air out of the cold bedroom?  Do you have a ceiling fan in that cathedral ceiling to move the heated air around?

What is your sq. ft.?  What is the brand/model of your insert?


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## firefighterjake

zanp said:
			
		

> Live in a 3 bedroom log cabin and heat it with a wood stove insert.  The wife and I are planning to move to the downstairs bedroom since we have another little one on the way.  This bedroom does not get much of the heat from the wood stove so I need to figure out an alternative heat source for this room.
> 
> It has baseboard heat but I don't like baseboard.  Lowes is starting to put their vent-free propane heaters on sale and I am considering buying a 10K BTU unit for the back bedroom.  I will purchase a 100lb propane tank as my source of propane.
> 
> Questions?
> -Are these units considered safe?
> -If the propane tank is going to be on the outside wall adjacent to where the heater is, can I buy a 4' gas line kit for easy connection to the propane tank (w/ two stage regulator) or do I need to hire a licensed plumber?
> -What is another heat source I should consider?



I'm not a big fan of the ventless propane heaters . . . forget even the water issues . . . for me it comes down to the safety . . . I know they have safety features, but unfortunately safety features can fail and it just doesn't seem especially wise to have anything that burns not vent its product of combustion to the outside . . . which is perhaps one of the reasons the State of Maine will not approve ventless gas heaters in daycares and areas where small children may be present.

Now if you were talking a vented gas heater . . . I would not have an issue . . . providing that smoke and CO detectors were also installed.


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## webbie

I would not install a vent free in a bedroom-even the smaller ones approved for that.
They consume air from the room.

Of course, that is just my opinion.


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## zanp

Shari said:
			
		

> I am learning more towards getting the heated air you already have moving where you want it.  Having you tried using a small floor fan pulling cold air out of the cold bedroom?  Do you have a ceiling fan in that cathedral ceiling to move the heated air around?
> 
> What is your sq. ft.?  What is the brand/model of your insert?




Log cabin is around 1600 sq ft (air volume much larger than typical 1600 house with the cathedral area).  There is a ceiling fan in the cathedral ceiling.   My insert is a large Regency I3100.  I also have a kerosene monitor heater adjacent to the insert that kicks on when the temps fall below 28 outside.  I am learning that cabins are not the tightest or most insulated.  One other tidbit is the house sits on top of a block wall and concrete floor basement that I am in the process of insulating and adding a small englander stove.  The basement is currently around 37 degrees in the winter time.  The floor joists are insulated but this cold basement does not help with my current heat situation.  Having a toasty basement should help.  

From everyones post, I am thinking that $104 ventless heater from Lowes is not worth it.  I can't put a price on health and safety.  

How much do vented propane wall heaters cost?  10K BTU units.  and can you hook them up to a 100-lb propane tank?

Maybe I should wait and see how the heated basement affects things and use a portable electric oil filled radiator in the short term.


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## Shari

On that ceiling fan, do you have it blowing up?  It should be blowing 'up' for winter, 'down' for summer.  Also, have you tried the small floor fan pulling cold air out of the cold bedroom?


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## DAKSY

Webmaster said:
			
		

> I would not install a vent free in a bedroom-even the smaller ones approved for that.
> They consume air from the room.
> 
> Of course, that is just my opinion.



X2...My opinion as well...


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## zanp

Shari said:
			
		

> On that ceiling fan, do you have it blowing up?  It should be blowing 'up' for winter, 'down' for summer.  Also, have you tried the small floor fan pulling cold air out of the cold bedroom?




Yes on the ceiling fan direction.  

I have tried the floor fan but it was probably three feet off the ground and it was when that door had been closed for days so it started off frigid in that room.  I kind of like a chilly bedroom but the wife would prefer a little more warmth.


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## Shari

zanp said:
			
		

> Shari said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On that ceiling fan, do you have it blowing up?  It should be blowing 'up' for winter, 'down' for summer.  Also, have you tried the small floor fan pulling cold air out of the cold bedroom?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes on the ceiling fan direction.
> 
> I have tried the floor fan but it was probably three feet off the ground and it was when that door had been closed for days so it started off frigid in that room.  I kind of like a chilly bedroom but the wife would prefer a little more warmth.
Click to expand...


Good on the ceiling fan!

Bad on the floor fan - you want to get low, down to the floor where the cold air is.  Best bet would be to just leave that 3rd bedroom door open during the day and then about an hour before bedtime get a fan moving any cooler air out of the bedroom.

Personally we use just a small 6" fan on 'normal' cold days.  When it gets below 15 degrees and a decent windy day we can opt to use this beast:


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## Fsappo

Vent free is safe when used properly in the right setting and NOT Malfunctioning.  They are not legal for bedrooms or bathrooms (very few exceptions).  My suggestion is always "If you can vent, vent"

That being said, I heat my whole 1500 SF house with a 30K btu vent free heater.  I have CO2 detectors out the wazoo and I love the moisture they put in the air during the cold dry winters.


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## seige101

As others have mentioned it's not kosher to install in a bedroom.

My story, was going to a friends new house for the first time as soon as i walked in the door i noticed the smell of burnt propane/gas.  He has a 30k btu unit in the living room of a 1200 sq ft house. It is burning properly but there is a definate odor it produces.

My personal opinion i would not use one. Go vented.

Like others have said small fan sitting on the floor.
Another solution is a small electric oil filled radiator. Use it to supplement the heat. If you used one for an hour a day say before bed to take the chill off you are not looking at much $$ added to the elec bill.


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## zanp

zanp said:
			
		

> Shari said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On that ceiling fan, do you have it blowing up?  It should be blowing 'up' for winter, 'down' for summer.  Also, have you tried the small floor fan pulling cold air out of the cold bedroom?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes on the ceiling fan direction.
> 
> I have tried the floor fan but it was probably three feet off the ground and it was when that door had been closed for days so it started off frigid in that room.  I kind of like a chilly bedroom but the wife would prefer a little more warmth.
Click to expand...


Do you keep the fan running all night or just before bed to move out the chilly air?


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## Shari

zanp said:
			
		

> zanp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shari said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On that ceiling fan, do you have it blowing up?  It should be blowing 'up' for winter, 'down' for summer.  Also, have you tried the small floor fan pulling cold air out of the cold bedroom?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes on the ceiling fan direction.
> 
> I have tried the floor fan but it was probably three feet off the ground and it was when that door had been closed for days so it started off frigid in that room.  I kind of like a chilly bedroom but the wife would prefer a little more warmth.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do you keep the fan running all night or just before bed to move out the chilly air?
Click to expand...


Like I said earlier:  Leave that 3rd bedroom door open during the day.  The reason is you don't want to have an extreme temperature difference.  About 1 hour before bed, turn the fan on.  Leave it on all night.  Shut it off in the morning.  Let us know how it works for you.


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## Shari

PS Put that fan near the bedroom doorway, blowing air towards the room where the stove is located.


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## btuser

The water vapor from gas combustion is nasty, nasty stuff.  I've been at construction sites when they were using propane heaters and had to leave because my eyes were stinging so badly.  I may be sensiitve to it but flue gas condensation is corrosive enough to eat through concrete.  I would use one in a garage or maybe a 3 season porch but the bedroom would be my last choice.  

That being said, if you need it you need it.  If you can get a gas pipe there maybe some baseboard?  What do you have for backup heat?  Propane is close to electric in my area, so maybe some baseboard or one of those oil-filled heaters as others mentioned.


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## wetwood

My father installed the first vent free infrared LP heater I ever saw in his living room as a backup to the wood stove in 1991.  When he moved to town we moved to the farm and installed another infrared LP heater in the basement where the kids (teenagers) bedrooms are. The basement heater is used as supplemental heat, set at the lower settings it work great for keeping the chill off because the upstairs heat does not filter down very well. The old heater up stairs has a pilot light but no thermostat. Instead it has low, med, high settings. We only use it at the very beginning of the shoulder season when starting a fire would just be too much heat. My grandparents use a natural gas model as the only heat source in there house. There it runs all the time and I find my lungs and sinuses get irritated if I'm in their house too long.

When we moved out here the first heater we installed in the basement was a Comfort Glow brand purchased at Lowes The pilot light only worked right the first year. The second year the pilot light kept going out and had to relight it all the time. The third year we replaced the heater with a Mr Heater brand infrared LP heater I picked up at the local farm supply store. I am impressed with the quality of the Mr Heater heater. It has a much better pilot light design and over all build that when compared side to side you can see just how cheap the CG heater is. The best thing was the Mr Heater actually cost $10 less than the CG heater at Lowes.


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## zanp

Thanks for all the responses.  It is pretty clear that ventless propane is a bad idea for a bedroom.  A vented heater could cost almost 1,000 including tank, permit (which requires a certified installer), and installation.  It would take a long time to recoup those costs versus simply using the floor fan and oil filled radiator to heat that room.  Also, I will not have to deal with hauling a 100-lb tank to the store to be filled.


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## Later

How about a 4' or 6' electric baseboard strip with a built in thermostat. We had one 5 or 6 ft in a 12x14 bedroom that took the chill off even on 20 below days.


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## ruth140

just throwing this out  there.... why not get an electric heater?
some even look like wood stoves. other look like fireplaces with mantels and all.
if all you want is to take the chill off then you wont be using much electric. 
just a thought. they heat about 400 sq feet.
i have one in a guest room..it works great and very reasonable to operate.


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## Dr.Faustus

sounds like those new Window Pellet Stoves might serve you well. US Stove makes them. You pop it in a window like an air conditioner. I dont own one, i saw it in a post in the pellet thread. Home Depot sells them.


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## zanp

Window pellet stove...Interesting... Don't think I want to mess with one of those.  
Small floor fan and oil filled radiator will do just fine.  

Thanks again for all the tips everyone.


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## Hughes

Another thought is Eden Pure, I have had reservations about the savings claims but customer feedback has been overwhelmingly positive.


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## seige101

Hughes said:
			
		

> Another thought is Eden Pure, I have had reservations about the savings claims but customer feedback has been overwhelmingly positive.



Save the $$ and buy a $15 electric heater. A btu is a btu, the 'miracle' heater is not more efficient.


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## drizler

seige101 said:
			
		

> Hughes said:
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> 
> Another thought is Eden Pure, I have had reservations about the savings claims but customer feedback has been overwhelmingly positive.
> 
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> 
> Save the $$ and buy a $15 electric heater. A btu is a btu, the 'miracle' heater is not more efficient.
Click to expand...


That's right but you know how it goes, tell the lie hard and long enough it becomes the truth.    We use a small ceramic heater and oil filled radiator in the other bedroom.    Over the years I find that the simple portable oil filled works far better than the fan driven ceramic and is almost completely silent.    You have to watch with the extreme heat of the ceramic too where it sits and there is always danger of fire if someone tosses clothes around.    There is no danger with the oil filled and in fact it is a good place to hang sometiing to dry.   For me it just seems to feel like it is heating better than the others.  Wally world or Kmart ect for $35 with 2 settings and a dial temp setting you could almost call a thermostat.   We have had this one since 1985 and it still works as good as new.


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## wetwood

The rural electrical cooperatives of KS work together to mail out a really good little magazine to their members every month. Last monthâ€™s issue had an article on electric space heater efficiency and safety. These are 2 paragraphs are from that article written by one of the cooperative managers.

Portable electric heaters are often used to assist in heating small areas. Typical heater usage is 1500 watts, but may have an energy savings setting of 750 watts. A 1500 watt heater will use 1.5 kilowatts per hour. Electricity cost is about 12 cents per hour. So a 1500 watt space heater will cost you about 18 cents for every hour it runs.

Do not be fooled by claims of â€œmiracleâ€ products that will save you money. A kilowatt-hour used will cost you the same whether you have a $350 heater or a $30 heater.


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## save$

Two bedrooms on the 2nd floor and one in the basement.  New bady on the way and you want to be in the basement?   I would sleep on the floor before I would be that far away from my kids at night.  Reading the paper, listening to the news, disasters happen in every community nearly all the time.  How can you be of help to very dependent children if you are in the basement?  A friend of mine had his house catch on fire,  He and his wife with their kids in their arms jumped off the porch room just in time to save the whole family.  Sorry, but after raising 4 kids and working in a hospital for many years, I know much harm can be prevented with interventions that seconds made the difference in outcome.


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## zanp

Thanks again for everyones advice.  I didn't expect to get parenting advice on this forum as well.    
Our bedroom will not be in the basement.  Our bedroom is on the main level of the house and two bedrooms in the upstairs loft in a small 1500 sq ft house.  The only thing between us and the upstairs are wood beams and 2x6 floors so we are able to have clear conversations with the upstairs bedrooms (we plan to insulate this down the road).  The new baby will be in our bedroom until he or she is ready for their own crib.  Thanks to all of you, we will all be toasty and safe.


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## tamms_1965

I have had four ventless sets in three different homes. They were all top quality and professionally installed, but none were in a bedroom. I mainly used them as a quick warm up for the family room and kitchen when I got home from work and to add a little moisture to my very dry house. I am getting ready to install two more in my new 1849 farm house, one in the parlor and one in my bedroom. However, My bedroom is actually a suite and has 10+ foot ceilings and I will NEVER sleep with them on. Again, I will use it as a quick warm up before I go to bed. Other than that, I love them.


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## DAKSY

Tamms said:
			
		

> I will NEVER sleep with them on.



Really? Freddy Prinze said the gun wasn't loaded...


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## tamms_1965

DAKSY said:
			
		

> Tamms said:
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> I will NEVER sleep with them on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really? Freddy Prinze said the gun wasn't loaded...
Click to expand...

Yes, really. AND I like to spend time in my bedroom/office for other things besides sleeping


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