# Burn tubes warped, fell out of the stove in the bottem of the box!



## MountainStoveGuy (Sep 3, 2006)

I had a nice customer today, well a irrate nice customer today, that brought me his burn tubes and some photos of the firebox. The burn tubes looked like a pile of cooked speggetie. After the tonge lashing was over, and he said his piece, i asked him. "how much construction lumber did you run through this thing?"  He looked at me like i was a idiot, and stated, "THATS ALL I USE! ITS A FRIGGING (but the real word) CONSTRUCTION SITE!!" As i was wiping the spit off my face, i got the owners manual, and photocopied the warrenty section, and the section that states that you must burn seasoned cord wood, stapled it together, with his original recipt and my card, and advised him to take it up with whoever he thinks is responsible.. He decded that wasnt the info he was looking for and wadded it up and threw it on the floor, cussing my store on the way out the door.  The guys wife who was red from embarresment, complety flipped out when she found out what caused it, i feel for him tonite. (not realy)

Point is, you folks reading this, scrap lumber is not ok, no were near ok. These stoves burn to hot, and that wood is to dry, you can seriously overfire your stove like this guy did.


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## Roospike (Sep 3, 2006)

This world is full of morons ............ Its just too bad you had to run into to one that wanted to set the blame on someone else . All you can do is shake you head and hope not to run across "there" problems. I bet this guy shouldn't dare to talk to you like that if your were in a parking lot. He should of had his A$$ hammered. Just unreal . Just laugh at him ........... he's the moron and he has to live with his own problems.


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## Roospike (Sep 3, 2006)

BTW , I thought it was funny he even brought "PROOF" pictures of his burn box to confirm he is a moron. He needs an award ............Also , Over the years I have seen many a wood stove brought to me wanting to fix .............. The problem ? , over fired ! 9 time out of 10 i tell them the only thing save-able is the pedestal and the door handle , everything else is warped beyond repair .


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## JAred (Sep 3, 2006)

Howdy,   Crazy stuff.  I've burnt my share of pallets last year.  I always kept I eye on things and kept the fire damped down tho. Sounds like this guy had the flue open all the way and would stuff as much lumber in there as he could!


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## brian_in_idaho (Sep 3, 2006)

MSG, sorry to hear that you had a customer like that.  Some people just need to be taken behind the barn and taught some manners.  Hopefully he will realize he screwed up and come back and make nice...while he buys replacement parts.  

BTW, thanks for posting the info on construction lumber.  I'll be burning it for a while, but only for kindling.  

Bri


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## MountainStoveGuy (Sep 3, 2006)

brian_in_idaho said:
			
		

> MSG, sorry to hear that you had a customer like that.  Some people just need to be taken behind the barn and taught some manners.  Hopefully he will realize he screwed up and come back and make nice...while he buys replacement parts.
> 
> BTW, thanks for posting the info on construction lumber.  I'll be burning it for a while, but only for kindling.
> 
> Bri



hopefully he wont be coming back to buy parts. But from his point of view, he spend some big change on a stove, thought he was doing the right thing, severly screwed up his stove, snow dropped pretty hard last night, and he has no heat. I can feel his pain. Who else to take it out on? He knows now he should have cracked the manual. I posted this for a few reasons, one, its been one of those weeks, and 2, to warn the skeptics that think they can burn any thing, and hopefull save some members from making the same mistake. Jared has the correct point here... moderation is key. In all my years i had not seen a stove damaged like this.


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## smirnov3 (Sep 3, 2006)

Another problem with pressure treated wood - it contains arsenic.  Not something you want to be breathing, or having getting into your drinking water.


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## roscolo (Sep 3, 2006)

What make of stove was it?


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## PAJerry (Sep 3, 2006)

I'm glad you didn't give in to this guy. He's probably done the same type of thing to a lot of tools/appliances he has owned.  Sad part is, these guys are everywhere.


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## K31Scout (Sep 3, 2006)

New to woodstove guy here.  I've been cutting all the dead standing wood off my 11 acres for this season and it's all really rock hard and *very* dry.  Sugar Maple, Beech, Ash and Iron wood.  Could this wood be too dry?  

I will get a chimney thermometer and control the draft but what temp. constitutes overheating?


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## MountainStoveGuy (Sep 3, 2006)

Natural dried wood is not going to ever be to dry. Its kilned dried wood thats a problem.
Roscolo, it was a quad, but that has nothing to do with it, no brand of stove would take repeated fireboxes full of 2x4's. Like he said, that was all he was burning for the last 2 seasons.


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## Marty (Sep 3, 2006)

Before I bought the Mansfield my other 'Quad' dealer said that you could burn 1 or 2 lumps of coal in the Isle royale per load.

Does that sound right?.. and does that apply to any make of stove as well?


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## MountainStoveGuy (Sep 3, 2006)

Marty, i know nothing about coal, i started a thread back last winter asking questions about coal.  I would say if the manual says you can burn coal, then burn it. I dont think it does.


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## Shane (Sep 3, 2006)

Technically you should not put coal in the wood stove.  Have I seen it done like you said a "lump or two" for an overnight burn.  Yep.  That guy must have had no idea what he was doing.  I burned construction lumber (no pressure treated stuff) for 3 months last year.  It's harder to control and you have to really watch your stove top thermometer but it can be done without any ill effect on the stove.  It's customers like that, that can really make your week huh?  I wonder how one gets to a point of such arrogance.  I just melted a set of 16 ga. tubes.  Surely this stove is a piece of crap!  I wonder if he realizes the kind of temperature it takes to make spaghetti out of those tubes.  
Not to hijack your thread but I had a lady come in last year.  We had sold here a wood stove 5 years previous to that.  She came in pretty mad.  it seems that the paint had just "burned off her stove for no apparant reason."  I did the idiot test and went a grabbed a stove top thermometer (the same one I knew was on her stove top).  I asked her if she had ever gotten it into the red area (900 range) and of course she would have never done that.  She literally asked me if I thought she was stupid.  Then Jr. pops up and says "yeah you have mom it's been in the red alot of times!"  It was as they say priceless.  I walked in the back and grabbed her a 1/2 can of paint we had laying around and told her to have a nice day.


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## Dave_1 (Sep 3, 2006)

Shane,



> That guy must have had no idea what he was doing.  I burned construction lumber (no pressure treated stuff) for 3 months last year.  It’s harder to control and you have to really watch your stove top thermometer but it can be done without any ill effect on the stove.



Exactly, & thus the problem. Most customer’s do not have a background in wood heater operation so do not know the dangers & or correct practices. A professional salesperson *includes * in the heater price a thermometer & explains why it *must * be used, for if it is left up to the customer to buy the temp gauge the vast majority do not.

(Was at my b-i-l's Saturday & because he has not used a temp gauge his metal inside chimney needs replacing. BTW, we built our houses within a year of each other & my metalbestos hardly looks used when compared to his.) 

A professional salesperson also explain the fire up temp, running temp, & the temp when creosote starts taking place. Then it is up to the customer to observe such practices or suffer the consequences as you have well noted.

As someone has wisely said; “There is a cure for ignorance, but none for stupidity.”

Dave


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## MountainStoveGuy (Sep 3, 2006)

Dave_1 said:
			
		

> Shane,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dave, your right. Im a crap salesperson. its up to me to tell each and every customer how to use and operate there stove. Consumers have no personal responsibility. We professionals have the "duty" to make shure we hold every ones hand. Every stove goes out of here with a thermometer and a instruction manual. When they check out they are told to read it. If they dont, not my problem. I guess i should come to there house and teach them how to make a fire too, becuase there new to woodburning, (which i did friday night)  Dave, dont hijack this thread with this baloney. If you have information reguarding personal experences burning construction lumber, fine. The "how do i deal with customers" thread is over.


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## Shane (Sep 3, 2006)

The problem with the "educating the consumer" aspect is that the type of person MSG is telling us about is not going to listen to some "salesman" about how to burn his stove.  He's been burning wood stoves since their very inception and does not need a manual or some smart ass punk telling him anything.  Really though I would say if anyone is responsible for telling the customer how to operate the stove it should be the installer.  And my guess is that the guy MSG is refering to did his own install.  I have a disclaimer on the bottom of our chimney sweeping inspection sheet stating that I have no control over conditions of use etc. and won't be held responsible blah blah for that exact reason.  You cannot control people.  Some will read and readily accept advice offered by professionals some won't.


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## senorFrog (Sep 3, 2006)

MSG, 

A few nurseries in my area sell Kiln Dried FIREWOOD.  I think a company up in VT dries it.  It's shipped to MASS in log form.  Then cut and and split at the nursery.  IS THAT OKAY TO USE?


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## MountainStoveGuy (Sep 3, 2006)

Your owners manual will state what is acceptable to burn in your stove, i have no idea about that kind of wood. I have never heard of kiln dried firewood, but then again, i havent heard of alot of things. Possible somone else can answer that for you. My gut would tell me no way.


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## BrotherBart (Sep 3, 2006)

senorFrog said:
			
		

> MSG,
> 
> A few nurseries in my area sell Kiln Dried FIREWOOD.  I think a company up in VT dries it.  It's shipped to MASS in log form.  Then cut and and split at the nursery.  IS THAT OKAY TO USE?



The mass marketers of fire wood use kilns to dry the wood faster. They take it down to the same 15 to 20 percent moisture content that ideally air dried cord wood would contain so it is fine to burn in a stove. In fact it is ideal. Kiln drying just allows them to get the stuff ready to ship in three days instead of a year.

Kiln dried lumber on the other hand is taken down to the 6 to 7 percent equilibrium moisture content common is homes and office buildings that are usually around 30% relative humidity. That stuff burns like gasoline in a stove and should not be burned in one except for kindling or small amounts for a short period.


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## Roospike (Sep 3, 2006)

Exactly .......... Agreed with what Brother B said. 





			
				BrotherBart said:
			
		

> senorFrog said:
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> 
> 
> ...


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## MountainStoveGuy (Sep 3, 2006)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> senorFrog said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



ya see! you learn something new every day. I would bet that the little plastic packs of firewood we sell are kiln dried. i never new it, and we burn it all the time in our display stoves.


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## Dave_1 (Sep 3, 2006)

> Dave, your right. Im a crap salesperson. its up to me to tell each and every customer how to use and operate there stove. Consumers have no personal responsibility. We professionals have the “duty” to make shure we hold every ones hand. Every stove goes out of here with a thermometer and a instruction manual. When they check out they are told to read it. If they dont, not my problem. I guess i should come to there house and teach them how to make a fire too, becuase there new to woodburning, (which i did friday night) Dave, dont hijack this thread with this baloney. If you have information reguarding personal experences burning construction lumber, fine. The “how do i deal with customers” thread is over.



Msg,  no offense intended but you seem to take my posts personally. Therefore please point out the sentence(s) where I stated that you were *“*a crap salesperson*”*, ok?

Is my post clearly directed to Shane, yes or no?

Was my comment about the use of a temp gauge, that neither my b-i-l or myself were told about when we bought our different heaters from different hearth stores, in line with Shane’s experience with a customer who essentially ignored the device, yes or no? 

Since it is apparent, to the unbiased, that such is clearly the case than your explanation as to why you think that I'm implying you are "a crap salesman" & that I’m trying to “hijack” this thread will be an interesting study of your logic.

Right?

Dave


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## Dave_1 (Sep 3, 2006)

> The problem with the “educating the consumer” aspect is that the type of person MSG is telling us about is not going to listen to some “salesman” about how to burn his stove. He’s been burning wood stoves since their very inception and does not need a manual or some smart ass punk telling him anything. Really though I would say if anyone is responsible for telling the customer how to operate the stove it should be the installer. And my guess is that the guy MSG is refering to did his own install. I have a disclaimer on the bottom of our chimney sweeping inspection sheet stating that I have no control over conditions of use etc. and won’t be held responsible blah blah for that exact reason. You cannot control people. Some will read and readily accept advice offered by professionals some won’t.



Shane, point taken. My point was that the new wood burning customer will have a greater tendency to use the temp gauge if it is included. In the case you cite the mother refused to use the device, but like I stated there is no cure for stupidity.

Have a good one.

Dave


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## Dave_1 (Sep 3, 2006)

*Wood-Drying Kilns*
<snip>
*"*high-air-velocity southern pine kilns can dry 1 inch thick green lumber in 10 hours down to a moisture content of 18%. However, 1 inch thick green oak requires about 28 days to dry down to a moisture content of *8%*. Hardwood kilns also require special humidity sprays to keep the relative humidity inside the kiln from dropping too low during the drying cycle.

Most softwood lumber kilns operate below 240 degrees F temperature. Most hardwood lumber kilns operate below 180 degrees F temperature. Many hardwood kilns never exceed 140 degrees F temperature. Some modern lumber kilns are also partially depressurized to speed the drying process and reduce fuel usage."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiln


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## BrotherBart (Sep 3, 2006)

The firewood kilns operate at around 220 degrees and don't use steam spray because they don't have to be worried about checking like the lumber guys. They can kick oak down to 20 percent in around 30 or so hours.


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## webbie (Sep 3, 2006)

MSG, I think it is up to you.....

This is so easy, I wonder why folks don't do it. 20 years ago we printed up a simple one page piece of paper called "Wood Burning Tips" and gave it to each customer with the stove. Cost? About 2 cents - Value: Priceless!

Let's face it - most people don't read manuals...I don't! And, even if they did, manuals are not exactly written in plain English...they are written for UL and for Lawyers.

In most cases, these problems can be weeded out during the sale - I've had a lot of folks tell me they wanted to burn scraps...I would sell them a stove that could take it...and also tell them to mix 50/50 with regular wood logs.


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## MountainStoveGuy (Sep 3, 2006)

generaly speaking, we all talk about what the stoves can and cant do. I dont tell every single person to not burn scraps. I think i will take your idea and type of a general woodburning FAQ. Manuals do clearly state what the stove is intended to burn, no leagle gibberish or anything. What type of stove do you think can take burning scraps? i can rule out steel ones.


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## webbie (Sep 3, 2006)

MountainStoveGuy said:
			
		

> generaly speaking, we all talk about what the stoves can and cant do. I dont tell every single person to not burn scraps. I think i will take your idea and type of a general woodburning FAQ. Manuals do clearly state what the stove is intended to burn, no leagle gibberish or anything. What type of stove do you think can take burning scraps? i can rule out steel ones.



This was a long time ago, and actually steel stoves back then could take the heat...of course, we even had utility stoves like Shenedoah.... Even simple heavy cast stoves like the Upland could take quite a licking. I had one guy who burned particle board (not with my permission!) and he only destroyed replaceable inner liners.

You can use some parts of this article- I think it contains some parts of my orginal:
https://www.hearth.com/what/tending.html

Notice it says:
Good Wood ! - First of all. don't even start unless you have good seasoned firewood of mixed sizes and types. Unseasoned wood or wet wood will only cause frustration. Also, keep a good supply of firestarters and kindling handy...it can be very aggravating attempting to start a fire without small, dry kindling.


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## webbie (Sep 3, 2006)

BTW, just for comparsion, when I bought a hot tub last year, the place was very thorough in educating us about virtually every aspect of it, including follow up phone calls to check water chemistry, careful explanation of the way to do the electric circuit and other care and feeding. They gave us a bunch of sheets like I mentioned (their own info sheets)....

Based on my follow up conversations they had a certain protocol - like the sales person made certain you got certain info and the delivery guys made certain you had other info and they pointed out all the chemicals and accessories and how to use them.

Note- we knew what we wanted on this purchase, and simply went in a ordered it...so we didn't need model and brand direction.


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## ourhouse (Sep 4, 2006)

If you are a licensed gun salesman and some one buys a gun from you. And he has the right permit and hunter saftey course and what ever the state requires. He says he knows how to saftely use it. He goes home and puts a round into his leg buy accident because he didn't realy know what he was doing. It's the salesmans fault. Just like the guy who cooked his stove in MSGs case. 
 just my 2 cents


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## webbie (Sep 4, 2006)

earthharvester said:
			
		

> If you are a licensed gun salesman and some one buys a gun from you. And he has the right permit and hunter saftey course and what ever the state requires. He says he knows how to saftely use it. He goes home and puts a round into his leg buy accident because he didn't realy know what he was doing. It's the salesmans fault. Just like the guy who cooked his stove in MSGs case.
> just my 2 cents



In neither case is it the salesperson fault. But how about a win-win situation where the gun dealertells the fool how to use the safety? 

Personal service is one of the main advantages stove dealers have over big boxes and internet sales. Therefore, it is also a win-win for them to spend 3 minutes extra and give them a piece of paper or a short course. No, it will not prevent melted stoves in all cases, but it will help.

The Hot Tub place didn't have to do all that jazz for me - but they probably also saved themselves hassle - an  educated customer is always an advantage...


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## MountainStoveGuy (Sep 4, 2006)

I should ask the members here to contribute to a great FAQ about woodburning, one that i can print out for customers, and one for the wikki!?


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## senorFrog (Sep 4, 2006)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Also, keep a good supply of firestarters and kindling handy...it can be very aggravating attempting to start a fire without small, dry kindling.



One more question re new stoves, how about FATWOOD to get a fire started?  That stuff seems to kick off a lot of thick black smoke.

Also, is the stuff you buy at the grocery or hardware store really FATWOOD?


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## MountainStoveGuy (Sep 4, 2006)

There are severl sources of fatwood, some are better then otheres. Fatwood comes from stups of loplolly pine trees in the south, when the trees die, all the sap runs down and settles in the trunk, what you are left with is a super impregnated tree trunk. Fat wood is little pieces of this trunk. The more pitch the fatwood has, the better it is as a firestarter. Not all fatwood is that great, some of the best comes out of georgia, some of the worse comes out of mexico.

This post realy belongs over on the other thread, im going to copy it.


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## Jay H (Dec 13, 2006)

Very interesting thread....and I didn't know what "fatwood" was until now.   After reading a bit of the Hearth Wiki on "What not to burn" I was kind of shocked. I knew of the arsenic-pressure treated wood and the gift wrap before, but I burn a tiny bit of cardboard and cereal boxes as kindling and I have used a small, perhaps 4" square chunk of construction lumber I got scraps from as kindling. I never have tried to stuff the wood stove with 2x4's though 

Jay


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## Turner-n-Burner (Dec 13, 2006)

MSG - if you still have the photos of that overfired stove, I'd consider making some sort of poster to hang in your showroom about what NOT to do.  Maybe put it near the stove thermometers

My opinion - the danger of construction lumber is not just it's moisture content.  hardwood will air dry to ~8 % moisture content given enough time too.  This is typical for lumber used for woodworking - furniture construction etc.  construction lumber on the other hand is also quick burning softwood and is usually in small, regular sized "sticks" - lots and lots of surface area per LB of wood. 

I am burning all sorts of scraps in my stove.  hardwood scraps, construction lumber scraps, even shavings from my lathe.  But ONLY when I am there watching it, and ONLY a couple of handfulls at a time.  Frankly the stuff burns so fast I can't imagine trying to keep feeding it to a stove.  Big splits of cordwood are the way to go!


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## jjbaer (Dec 13, 2006)

MountainStoveGuy said:
			
		

> Dave_1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



tell the guy you know whose at fault..then give him a hand-mirror......
Dave, your right. Im a crap salesperson. its up to me to tell each and every customer how to use and operate there stove. Consumers have no personal responsibility. We professionals have the "duty" to make shure we hold every ones hand. Every stove goes out of here with a thermometer and a instruction manual. When they check out they are told to read it. If they dont, not my problem. I guess i should come to there house and teach them how to make a fire too, becuase there new to woodburning, (which i did friday night)  Dave, dont hijack this thread with this baloney. If you have information reguarding personal experences burning construction lumber, fine. The "how do i deal with customers" thread is over.[/quote]


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## kevinmoelk (Dec 13, 2006)

Frankly, I don't trust salesmen to educate me.  I'm the guy who does read the manaul.  I'm the guy who'll talk to 10 different people before making a decision.  If this angry customer MSG had failed to educate himself, then that's his fault.  No one handed me my education on any subject, from business to welding I had to learn and educate myself.

To me the truly sad aspect of this whole scenario is the customers anger.  There are better things in life to worry about buddy.  And coming in with attitude and leaving with one, yeah, that's going to make MSG really want to help you now. I don't know MSG personally, but I suspect that he'd be much more helpful if the customer had come in and asked why the tubes failed, and then ask what can be done to fix the problem.  Anger solves nothing.  Oh and by the way, neither does taking the guy behind the barn or kickin' his arse or any of those other juvenile ideas.  


And here's what my owner's manual states:

Burn only dry, well-seasoned wood for maximum heat output. In some states it is illegal to burn wet wood
or anything other than clean, dry wood products.

Burn driftwood or wood that has been in salt water. This includes some mill ends and scrap
lumber that has been floated in salt water on the way to the mill. (This will void your warranty.)

That's it.  No mention of any lumber, plywood, PT, etc.  No mention of technique or how to do so properly without destroying your stove.  So without Hearth and reading all these threads and talking to the pros, I wouldn't know half as much as I do now.  Thanks fellas.

-Kevin


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## HarryBack (Dec 14, 2006)

wow- Polarizing subject!

How about this? The dealer, every once and awhile, holds seminars after hours, maybe an hour or two long, on different subjects, like Woodburning101, How to clean your pellet stove, CoalBurning101, etc? Maybe have coffee and tofu (kidding), more thinking of coffee and a rotgut pizza or 3, etc. What do you folks think of that idea? Any other ideas for topics for seminar? Thanks.


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## BrotherBart (Dec 14, 2006)

HarryBack said:
			
		

> wow- Polarizing subject!
> 
> How about this? The dealer, every once and awhile, holds seminars after hours, maybe an hour or two long, on different subjects, like Woodburning101, How to clean your pellet stove, CoalBurning101, etc? Maybe have coffee and tofu (kidding), more thinking of coffee and a rotgut pizza or 3, etc. What do you folks think of that idea? Any other ideas for topics for seminar? Thanks.



It is an excellent idea. Ya don't even need to feed'em. With stove manufactuer's publishing complete wood burning instructions like 1. Stack up some kindling and smaller pieces of wood. 2. When it burns down to coals load the stove with larger pieces of wood. 3. After the wood is burning adjust the temperature. 4. If the stove is glowing red you are overfiring. 5. Have a nice day. Ya damn right people would come to mini-classes. Stove owners and non-owners alike. 

And the ones that don't have stoves would get more comfortable about buying one. And believe it or not there will be two or three that would feel guilty about buying a stove from anybody but you after they attended and learned a few things. About the same ratio as any cold sales calls.

There are a lot of potential stove owners out there that have never and will never find hearth.com. And in lot of ways if they become dependent on you, that ain't a bad thing at all.


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## stoveguy2esw (Dec 14, 2006)

here is a link to what we post on our website for building a fire, this one applies to non-cat units, we have one for cat stoves as well. guys if you can use it , feel free, if you have suggestions for it im all ears. hope this is helpful

mike      http://www.englanderstoves.com/manuals/BuildingNonCatalyticFire.pdf


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## babalu87 (Dec 14, 2006)

earthharvester said:
			
		

> If you are a licensed gun salesman and some one buys a gun from you. And he has the right permit and hunter saftey course and what ever the state requires. He says he knows how to saftely use it. He goes home and puts a round into his leg buy accident because he didn't realy know what he was doing. It's the salesmans fault. Just like the guy who cooked his stove in MSGs case.
> just my 2 cents



SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW DOWN , unless you forgot a ? somewhere...............?

So if Joe Cementhead puts a .38 in his leg its Mikes Gun Shop AND Smith and Wessons fault because Joe screwed up?

Better tell those chainsaw manufacturers to start selling their saws with ALL the safety equipment, including ear protection. Some boob might run the saw a few years and go deaf, then get on a plane and go crying to Sweden.

Consumers need to educate themselves.
Do the families of loved ones killed in accidents chase down Ford, Dodge, Chevy, Toyota etc because they dont design cars that avoid accidents all by themselves?
Hopefully they werent drunk too, then they could chase down Jim Beam or better yet the huge coffers of Budweiser as well.

ANYONE that puts an iron box in a building made of wood and puts a fire inside it better damn well be educated as to what the consequences of improper use are.

Next thing you know they will put DO NOT DRINK on paint cans  :roll:


MSG
Heres a quickie FAQ (with answers)

*Can I burn treated lumber?*
Only if you want to die an early death

*Can I burn flooring and construction lumber?*
In very limited amounts

*Should I use a thermometer?*
Theres one on your gas/electric stove isnt there?

*Have you seen my baseball?*
Heres your sign


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## wahoowad (Dec 14, 2006)

It is not a dealer's legal responsibility to train his customers, but I would have had a much higher opinion of my dealer if he offered a 30 minute seminar on Saturday mornings on how to start and tend a wood fire. Hell, he could open it to the public and just imagine the additional folks who might come in. 

I have friends who can never have a decent fire in their fireplace for many of the common reasons. Telling them is worthless, showing them is everything. I don't _expect _a dealerto do this, but would be darn impressed by one that did. I like a business that goes the extra mile. It is kinda like Lowes offering those weekend sessions on how to lay tile, repair sheetrock, paint, etc.


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## jjbaer (Dec 14, 2006)

wrenchmonster said:
			
		

> And here's what my owner's manual states:
> 
> Burn driftwood or wood that has been in salt water. This includes some mill ends and scrap
> lumber that has been floated in salt water on the way to the mill. (This will void your warranty.)
> ...



Wrench,

I think you meant to say "DON'T burn driftwood or wood that has been in salt water. This includes some mill ends and scrap
lumber that has been floated in salt water on the way to the mill. (This will void your warranty.)"

You said "burn driftwood.....etc"


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## jjbaer (Dec 14, 2006)

earthharvester said:
			
		

> If you are a licensed gun salesman and some one buys a gun from you. And he has the right permit and hunter saftey course and what ever the state requires. He says he knows how to saftely use it. He goes home and puts a round into his leg buy accident because he didn't realy know what he was doing. It's the salesmans fault. Just like the guy who cooked his stove in MSGs case.
> just my 2 cents



Earthharvester,

Surely you jest??? No....really.....tell us you don't believe what you wrote and that you're kidding?? Because if you really believe what you wrote, here's the "brave new world according to earthharvester" that we're faced with.......a world in which the following happens:

1) Some idiot buys a chainsaw, doesn't read the manual that says chains are sharp, runs his hand over the chain and gets cut and sues............and, according to your "brave new world", it's Huskys fault............. wrong answer!

2) Same or similar idiot buys a car, marginally passed drivers ed and "forgets" which is the gas vs which is the brake....pushes on the gas instead of the brake, runs over a group of people killing 2 of them, then sues the auto maker claiming it's their fault........wrong answer!

3) Same or similar idiot buys a stove, fails to read the manual which clearly says "don't burn lumber"....burns lumber anyway, then walks into MSG's store and "rants" and demands a new stove......wrong answer.......do not pass go, do not collect $200.....LOL

When I hear such illogical, two things come to mind:

1) A saying we had in the military when people came looking for scape goats: "search for the guilty and punish the innocent".....

2) A saying by John Wayne: "life's tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid"...... Note: not saying your stupid just that people in general also have responsibilities and when they/we/you/I fail to exercise that responsibility and then things go wrong..well.....too bad but then we also can't come looking for a fall guy......


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## jjbaer (Dec 14, 2006)

MountainStoveGuy said:
			
		

> Dave_1 said:
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MSG,

Chill out...LOL......you overreacted..... He wasn't calling you a bad salesperson but rather just telling you, in general, what he expects from a salesperson. We don't know what advise you initially gave this customer when you sold him the stove but your response indicates you're feeling guilty about something when in reality, the customer had a responsibility to read the manual which would have said to NOT burn lumber.......


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## MountainStoveGuy (Dec 14, 2006)

im not in the mood to be psycho-analized cast. I dont feel guilty about anything. this thread was started after a rough day at work some time ago. I havent even thought about it. Dave was irritating me at that time, and im sure i overreacted.


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## kevinmoelk (Dec 14, 2006)

castiron said:
			
		

> wrenchmonster said:
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LOL, sorry, yes you are correct.  The driftwood statement was made under a heading of DO'S and DONT'S obviously under dont's.  Although I understand the satement, I found it lacking any clarification.  What about mill ends that have been floating in fresh water?  And so on.

-Kevin


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## jjbaer (Dec 14, 2006)

MountainStoveGuy said:
			
		

> im not in the mood to be psycho-analized cast. I dont feel guilty about anything. this thread was started after a rough day at work some time ago. I havent even thought about it. Dave was irritating me at that time, and im sure i overreacted.



MSG, 

Not being psycho analyzed......your own reaction (not my "analyzing") to his comment about what he expects from a salesperson, for some reason perturbed you. I think it was because after listening to him list what he expected, that you realized you may not have passed all that same info onto the idiot who over-temped his stove. That said, I agree with you that you can't "hold the hand" of each customer and do everything for him/her and that (especially in this case) the customer had an obligation to read the manual so not your fault. Later.


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## jjbaer (Dec 14, 2006)

wrenchmonster said:
			
		

> castiron said:
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Good question....don't know the answer.


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## kevinmoelk (Dec 14, 2006)

Well it wasn't really a question castiron, merely a comment about a poorly written manual.  The manual leaves a guy like myself with a hundred questions.  Just like the driftwood, saltwater thing.  They dont' tell you why.  They don't tell you that burning salt releases acid (sulfuric acid I believe) into the air.  It's the same reason potters stopped using salt glazes 20 years ago.  They don't tell you not to burn mill end lumber because it can over-fire your stove, etc.  The question of "why" should be answered.

To my logic burning wood that has been soaked in water would be okay 1) If it were not salt water and 2) If it were properly seasoned.  Is there any other reason not to burn wood that has been exposed to fresh water?

-Kevin


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## jjbaer (Dec 14, 2006)

wrenchmonster said:
			
		

> Well it wasn't really a question castiron, merely a comment about a poorly written manual.  The manual leaves a guy like myself with a hundred questions.  Just like the driftwood, saltwater thing.  They dont' tell you why.  They don't tell you that burning salt releases acid (sulfuric acid I believe) into the air.  It's the same reason potters stopped using salt glazes 20 years ago.  They don't tell you not to burn mill end lumber because it can over-fire your stove, etc.  The question of "why" should be answered.
> 
> To my logic burning wood that has been soaked in water would be okay 1) If it were not salt water and 2) If it were properly seasoned.  Is there any other reason not to burn wood that has been exposed to fresh water?
> 
> -Kevin



sounds right to me.


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## MountainStoveGuy (Dec 14, 2006)

a lot under the weather here.  Sorry cast if i snapped. I just got back home from work and im going to bed.


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## jjbaer (Dec 14, 2006)

MountainStoveGuy said:
			
		

> a lot under the weather here.  Sorry cast if i snapped. I just got back home from work and im going to bed.



rolled off old cast like water off a duck...LOL....get well!


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## stoveguy2esw (Dec 15, 2006)

ok , my 2 cents worth,
 when a person purchases an item , particularly a big ticket item, the person doing the buying should want to know about the product that he is spending his money on. particularly if it is somthing he is not familiar with. im sure had the customer asked a few questions he would have gotten answers. sometimes a customer will want to now sometimes they will not(ie "ive been burning wood longer than you've been alive") ive heard it myself) unfortunately there are customers out there you just cant help even if you try. is MSG a bad salesperson , of course not, was the customer at fault , likely so, the thing that would have likely averted this guys problem is education that in all honesty the customer likely did not request or pay attention to, or learn by reading up on it in the manual. its an unfortunate happening but you have to wonder if this customer was in any mindset to even accept any information. there is more to it than the purchase, customer service has to accepted by the customer, and the customer should be open to it.


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## Gooserider (Dec 15, 2006)

Some of the stuff I've seen talking about wood to burn or not burn said that part of the problem with lumber is that you dont know just where it came from and whether it was floated in salt water or fresh, or if it was left sitting in a log pond that had a lot of salt in it from other logs that had been in salt water.

In addition, even plain, "non treated" lumber is likely to have been treated with any number of different preservatives intended to keep it from checking or developing other flaws, or saw blade treatments intended to make it easier to cut, etc.  This stuff can make the stove trickier to control and / or make nasty corrosive or unhealthy smoke.

Another aspect of stove burning that perhaps we don't appreciate as much is that it has been my impression that the older pre-epa stoves were arguably more tolerant of over firing.  I know I remember being in many a place when I was growing up where they had stoves that quite literally were "glowing" - in some cases these were oil drum stoves, in others they were old steel box or franklin style stoves.  This was treated as normal and expected operation, the rule being the hotter the better.  I could easily see someone coming from that kind of experience being surprised at how one isn't supposed to do that to an EPA stove.  After all it's made out of metal, and you aren't going to get steel hot enough to melt with wood....

I agree the person should read the manual, but can sort of understand someone who thinks they know what to do skipping it and getting in trouble.

 Gooserider


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## kevinmoelk (Dec 15, 2006)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> ...In addition, even plain, "non treated" lumber is likely to have been treated with any number of different preservatives intended to keep it from checking or developing other flaws, or saw blade treatments intended to make it easier to cut, etc....
> 
> Gooserider




Really, no checking?  Flawless?  Easy to cut?  Hummm.  Keyword here I suppose is "intended".  I'm close to the source of much of this nations lumber, and let me tell you the lumber today is junk.  Stuff my grandfather wouldn't have even touched, much less build anything with it.  It's gotten so bad that I normally calculate 10% of the lumber I purchase for large projects will end up being used for blocks or temporary braces, etc.  Roughly 3% will end up being scrapped completely.  

The other day in fact I had two ends of 2x6s I was examining, one was rough cut true dimension old growth.  The other I had just gotten from HD.  The old growth lumber had nearly 3 times as many rings!  It made the new 2x6 look like it had been grown with steroids.

I know I'm taking your comment out of context Goose, but I just had to say something about it   Sad we can't get good lumber anymore, oh wait there's a big rain forest in Brazil and China is willing to deal!

-Kevin


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## Gooserider (Dec 15, 2006)

wrenchmonster said:
			
		

> Gooserider said:
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The additives benefits are relative - they make stuff better as compared to what it would look like without them.  

I agree with you Kevin, the quality of lumber these days is disgusting.  I know that any time I go to Home Despot or Low's to get stuff, that I will have to examine at least two to three times as many boards as what I actually need in order to find useable stuff.  I'm not looking for "perfect" wood either - just stuff that is good enough for the project I'm working on, and where the flaws are in places that I can work around.  I have to wonder if HD is in the business of selling lumber or hockey sticks!

One that got to me a bit was the other day at the hardware store, where another customer was shopping for some replacement sledgehammer handles - He even had trouble finding straight wooden tool handles, which are supposedly made from premium wood!

 Gooserider


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## Starter (Feb 7, 2007)

Man I'm glad I found hearth.com!

When we went to buy our insert, we told the salesperson that we want to have a fireplace in order to burn pallets, since we have a constant supply of pallets. The only warning he gave us was that pallet wood will not be as efficient to heat our house as cord wood. (???) Now ask me what would be the reaction to such a statement from a person who knows nothing about fires? "Great, we'll throw even more pallet wood - we have plenty".

I learnt about over-firing from here. I didn't know that wood was supposed to have a moisture of 20%. I didn't even know there exist temperatures to stick on your stove - I learnt that today... and I'm hoping I'd be finding one to buy. And I had never heard of chimney fires before, now I'm having dreams about them!

Obviously I haven't read the manual - they're coming to install next week, and obviously the manual will be coming with the stove.

So now I have a problem of explaining stuff to my husband. And I'm still afraid that we'll be doing something wrong. After all the only fires we've ever lighted were barbeques. We wouldn't have ordered the stove were it not for having free wood to burn (pallets). He told me he'd be tying the thin pieces of the wood together with wire, in order that they have the shape of logs and burn more slowly. I don't know if it makes sense. Also, we will not be filling the stove to the normal capacity but would have it like less than half full.


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## elkimmeg (Feb 7, 2007)

go on the internet and download your manual read it before the installation to check if it has been installed properly. Better to know before hand that fight with the installers afterwards


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## Starter (Feb 7, 2007)

I've been searching for the manual over a week... translating websites from spanish using google translate... Shall I give $100 to the first person who manages to find it for me?  :cheese: 

ok the last part was just kidding...


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## slowzuki (Feb 7, 2007)

I'm not a fire place expert, nor do I have a modern stove like what you are buying but I do have advice.

I have burned pallets, many have been outside a long time and have absorbed some moisture.  Don't bother wiring, just flat stack flat pieces.  Don't put as much wood in the stove as with regular wood.  With dry contsruction ends I fire about 1/4 of the fire box capacity at most.  This is because I can't get them flat enough to reduce the surface area that burns and it is easy to get the stove very hot.  My old unit can take it and doesn't mind frequent trips to 900 F but my FIL damaged his stoves baffles doing the same thing in a newer stove.



			
				Starter said:
			
		

> Man I'm glad I found hearth.com!
> 
> So now I have a problem of explaining stuff to my husband. And I'm still afraid that we'll be doing something wrong. After all the only fires we've ever lighted were barbeques. We wouldn't have ordered the stove were it not for having free wood to burn (pallets). He told me he'd be tying the thin pieces of the wood together with wire, in order that they have the shape of logs and burn more slowly. I don't know if it makes sense. Also, we will not be filling the stove to the normal capacity but would have it like less than half full.


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## begreen (Feb 7, 2007)

There is a rash of people not taking responsibility for their own stupidity and trying to place the blame on someone else, be it the schools, the govt., manufacturers, etc. This is fueled by a segment of the legal profession that has learned how to capitalize on it. I looked at the Isle Royale manual and it's full of warnings and caveats about the type of wood to burn, (no coal in there Marty), and in bold print states, overfiring the stove will void your warranty. Guess now they'll need to add a section to appease the lawyers on what not to burn. That should include, construction lumber, plastics, books, your neighbor's cat, rugs, paint, old aerosol cans, shotgun shells etc..


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## begreen (Feb 7, 2007)

Starter said:
			
		

> I've been searching for the manual over a week... translating websites from spanish using google translate... Shall I give $100 to the first person who manages to find it for me?  :cheese:
> 
> ok the last part was just kidding...



Ask your dealerto make you a copy.


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## chemist44286 (Feb 7, 2007)

I agree with most here that the responsability lies on the buyer/operator; however, I think most prospective buyers REALLY appreciate the dealerthat goes the extra mile to educate the customer.  I'm the analytical type who does a lot of homework before a major purchase, so I look for a dealerthat knows the info and is willing to spend the time to answer my questions.  (I hate knowing more about a product than the dealer... Not an encouraging feeling)  I understand some other people are NOT like that, as they wouldn't pursue the answers or even think of the questions.  They might really respond positively to a short handout they can refer to until they get going.  My point is that a dealer will sell you something, a good dealer will understand your needs and wants and give you some tools to educate yourself, and an outstanding dealer will sell you exactly what you need and want, but also guage your interest level and educate you to the extent you'll best respond most to.  The outstanding dealer will get my business every time, and likely my friend's business, too.  I've been shopping around for a hearth-mount stove and no local dealers have let me know about any quickie classes they offer.  They may have handouts they give after a sale or install and I haven't seem them yet.

I'm also glad there is a hearth.com to learn from all of you.  I don't plan on doing my own install, but I do plan on knowing exactly how it should go, what the materials will be used, and asking lots of questions if anything doesn't make sense to me.

MSG,
You don't happen to have any of those firebox pics still, do you?  It would be great to see the worst you've seen.


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