# 25-PAH Premature Burn Pot Failure - My fault or the burn pots? (2 burn pots in 4  months)



## acammer (Feb 16, 2015)

Good morning all.  During my last normal clean up I found a major crack had developed in the burn pot of my Timber Ridge 55-TRPAH (Englander 25-PAH).  I was pretty frustrated to see this, as this is the second new burn pot this stove has had this season - I bought it as a new/refurb from AM/FM Energy in late November, and replaced the first burn pot 1 month ago almost to the day.  The failures are almost exactly the same between both of the failed burn pots - a crack forms between holes in the middle of the pot.

What I'm trying to determine is if there is something I'm doing wrong that's leading to these failures.  Let me give a little background on usage.  My stove lives in my finished basement, and is responsible for heating the whole 2,100sqft house (with a little help from the propane furnace on really cold days).  The stove runs wide open whenever it's under 20*F outside, when it's a little warmer it gets to idle 4-6hrs at night when the thermostat sets it back at 11pm.  So far I've burned through about three tons of fuel.  I clean the stove every 24-48hrs - this consists of shutting it down, vacuuming up all ash including the ash pan, cleaning the glass, and scrapping out the burn pot.  I knock it out against the floor a few times to get any buildup out, then I use a scraper (usually a putty knife and a flat bladed screwdriver) to get any stubborn carbon out.  Lastly, I take a small rod (3/16") and work it in and out of each of the holes in the bottom of the pot - the side holes don't usually need any attention.  Some times when doing this I notice small flakes of what I assume is buildup (maybe it's metal) come off the bottom of the pot.  I'm not aggressive with the scrapping and cleaning of the holes.

I'm at a loss here - I'm not sure what's causing this, but 2 burn pots in 4 months is crazy.  The last one made it barely thirty days!  I want to see if there are any thoughts out there on this - maybe I'm doing something wrong here.  Maybe it's just two bad burn pots in a row.  I just know that I need a stove that's gonna run for more than a month without replacing a $70 part over and over.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 16, 2015)

A smidge more air or a smidge less pellets might go a long way towards extinguishing the forge aspects of your burn.


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## acammer (Feb 16, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> A smidge more air or a smidge less pellets might go a long way towards extinguishing the forge aspects of your burn.



Air is maxed - I can definitely trim the fuel back some, but I'm trying to extract maximum heat.  It definitely doesn't burn dirty, but I am running as hot as I can get it.  It's never over-fired.  Book doesn't say you can't run it on high 24/7.  Maybe it turns out that it's just not engineered to handle what it's rated for - wouldn't be the first piece of equipment to have that be the case.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 16, 2015)

You need damn near perfect conditions in the air flow department if you are trying to maximize heat output do not send it out the flue. 

Pellet stoves can be run to burn pellets or burn pellets and extract heat, sometimes that is not the same thing.

Once you get to the point that you get carbon building up in the burn pot you are operating a forge and frequently sending the heat outside the stove via the flue as the air flow is too fast for the exchanger to have enough time to really get as much heat as possible out of the exhaust stream..


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 16, 2015)

I destroyed my first burn pot in a month the second one is still going strong almost 7 years later.


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## acammer (Feb 16, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> You need damn near perfect conditions in the air flow department if you are trying to maximize heat output do not send it out the flue.
> 
> Pellet stoves can be run to burn pellets or burn pellets and extract heat, sometimes that is not the same thing.
> 
> Once you get to the point that you get carbon building up in the burn pot you are operating a forge and frequently sending the heat outside the stove via the flue as the air flow is to fast for the exchanger to have enough time to really get as much heat as possible out of the exhaust stream..



That all makes sense to me.  I've done my tuning with a thermometer mounted to the heat exchanger exhaust that I've kept in the extra same place the entire time I've owned the stove, and compiled some results to determine with which settings I get my best heat.  I definitely would allow that I am certainly running past peak efficiency - all my tuning has been in the pursuit of maximum performance as I'm using the stove in it's maximum defined area of coverage at it's maximum output (2,000 sq ft and 25k output BTU).  That 25k BTU figure the manufacture gives has to come at around 4lbs/hr of feed, which is essentially with the fuel trim maxed out.  I'm not at that point, but I am about half way on the trim (on the highest heat setting) for my routine running which is pretty close.  I guess I'm disappointed that in order to get the performance promised by the manufacturer the stove doesn't seem to be equipped to tolerate it.  Again, I acknowledge that I'm running the stove towards the outside of the envelope - but I am within the envelope.  I haven't made modifications to the stove, I just want the performance promised when I bought the stove, without it self destructing to give it.


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## acammer (Feb 16, 2015)

A good question you might have good insight into is what characteristics of a burn are indicative of a "forge" scenario.  Carbon buildup you mentioned, what other clues would reveal this?  I assume (and please expand if I'm off or confirm if correct) that when the burn is acting like a forge it creates such high heat in the burn pot area that it is fatiguing the metal, and leads to this type of failure.


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## SidecarFlip (Feb 16, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> A smidge more air or a smidge less pellets might go a long way towards extinguishing the forge aspects of your burn.


 
Less air.  the OP has an oxidizing flame.  Very evident by the oval shape of the holes.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 16, 2015)

acammer said:


> A good question you might have good insight into is what characteristics of a burn are indicative of a "forge" scenario.  Carbon buildup you mentioned, what other clues would reveal this?  I assume (and please expand if I'm off or confirm if correct) that when the burn is acting like a forge it creates such high heat in the burn pot area that it is fatiguing the metal, and leads to this type of failure.



Other signs are a glowing burn pot, and the fusing of ash into fully formed clinkers that look like metal.   It causes the metal to come under varying levels of expansion at different rates due to temperature differences from one end of the pot to the others which stresses and deforms the burn pot to the point that it creates its own air bypasses and breaks down.  These temperatures are met once the carbon (charcoal) actually ignites.  The forced air system in the stove virtually ensures this if the the fuel load is too much for the air to eject the ash in time.


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## acammer (Feb 16, 2015)

SidecarFlip said:


> Less air.  the OP has an oxidizing flame.  Very evident by the oval shape of the holes.



Less air isn't possible.  Let me be more specific - the controller has 9 heat ranges.  On heat range 9 the combustion blower runs at full speed irregardless of the air trim.  I can't imagine that the stove would be unable to run on it's highest heat setting.  I think the photo is a little misleading in that the angle does make some of the holes appear oval-ed.  They really are not, here is a secondary angle for comparison.  I really appreciate all this input though, I do want to learn every bit that I can here.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 16, 2015)

SidecarFlip said:


> Less air.  the OP has an oxidizing flame.  Very evident by the oval shape of the holes.




Actually it depends on the fuel charge he is maxed out on air.


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## acammer (Feb 16, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Other signs are a glowing burn pot, and the fusing of ash into fully formed clinkers that look like metal.   It causes the metal to come under varying levels of expansion at different rates due to temperature differences from one end of the pot to the others which stresses and deforms the burn pot to the point that it creates its own air bypasses and breaks down.  These temperatures are met once the carbon (charcoal) actually ignites.  The forced air system in the stove virtually ensures this if the the fuel load is too much for the air to eject the ash in time.



For what it's worth I've never had the burn pot glowing hot - I've moved the glowing pellets on the bottom aside once or twice (after giving them a few seconds to stop flaming) and not seen any glow.  No metal like clinkers either, just the normal soft brown ones.  The pot doesn't load up at my usual trim settings, it'll go for days and days.


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## SidecarFlip (Feb 16, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Other signs are a glowing burn pot, and the fusing of ash into fully formed clinkers that look like metal.   It causes the metal to come under varying levels of expansion at different rates due to temperature differences from one end of the pot to the others which stresses and deforms the burn pot to the point that it creates its own air bypasses and breaks down.  These temperatures are met once the carbon (charcoal) actually ignites.  *The forced air system in the stove virtually ensures this if the the fuel load is too much for the air to eject the ash in time*.


 
In 30 years, I've never found that to be true.  It's not forced air anyway, it's negative draft and the combustion air is pulled through the fuel bed causing above the fuel bed gasification.  If the combustion air exceeds the rate of feed, the fuel bed burns down to the pot itself and the O2 rich atmosphere causes the metal to oxidize and liberate itself from the parent material.  The answer of course is to reduce the combustion air volume a bit, either by reducing the available intake (via draft shutter) or slowing the CA fan a bit.  Either metnod works fine.

The combustion air will cool the pot to a certain degree so long as it's not so excessive it's reducing the fuel bed to the pot surface.


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## SidecarFlip (Feb 16, 2015)

Cut yout combustion air down a bit.  Thats all you need to do.  It might take a bit of trial and error to achieve optimum burn but you are delivering (to the fuel bed) too much CA.


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## acammer (Feb 16, 2015)

SidecarFlip said:


> Cut yout combustion air down a bit.  Thats all you need to do.  It might take a bit of trial and error to achieve optimum burn but you are delivering (to the fuel bed) too much CA.



I really don't think it's combustion air - there isn't even a way to reduce it on that heat level (as explained above) and I don't believe that the stove was built with an overly lean condition.  I understand the theory of the fuel burning down the burn pot itself and the bottom of the pot itself being exposed to O2 rich air - that isn't the case in this stove.  If I open the hopper while running, cutting the auger, and let the flames go out, when I open the door and examine the burn pot there is a floor of glowing pellet fuel, maybe the depth of 1-2 pellets, across the entire bottom of the pot.

I think Smokey's proposed issue of creating a "forge" is more likely, as I've tuned the stove for maximum output and definitely and pushing it as hot as I can with the given available airflow.  I can understand that the quality of the burn pot material simply may not be able to take the maximum amount of output that the stove is rated for - that's just very disappointing as I had found this stove was just adequate to meet my heating needs.  If it turns out I have to de-tune it in order to keep the burn pot alive, then it's actually not capable of it's advertised rating, and that's just not cool.

I think you may have summed up the issue in the other thread we had going last month on this issue:



SidecarFlip said:


> Cheap azzed burn pot?


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## slvrblkk (Feb 16, 2015)

You can lower your air by dropping your LBA, but the change will be subtle unless you have it maxed on 9. I know the air increases a bit through the controller with heat level increases but it might reduce it a bit overall. Mike would be able to answer that. What do you currently have it set on?


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## SidecarFlip (Feb 16, 2015)

Curious, is the pot ferrous or low grade stainless?


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## slvrblkk (Feb 16, 2015)

Unless they've changed them recently, they are definitely not stainless....


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## acammer (Feb 16, 2015)

slvrblkk said:


> You can lower your air by dropping your LBA, but the change will be subtle unless you have it maxed on 9. I know the air increases a bit through the controller with heat level increases but it might reduce it a bit overall. Mike would be able to answer that. What do you currently have it set on?



I mentioned it above - the LBA has no effect on heat range 9 (or 8).  You can trim it to 1 or 9 and the combustion blower runs flat out either way.  I've tested this right after the stove comes out of start up, before the convection blower kicks on and you can't hear a thing.  That's why I hold to the opinion that this isn't a too much air issue - the stove is (or at least should be) designed to handle the air delivered at even the lowest trim settings.

Speaking of trim settings, I typically run at LFF 5, LBA 4, AOT 1.  This yields the hottest clean burn possible on the highest heat setting.  The stove actually idles nicely too when the T-stat kicks it down - you would think it would need more air with that much fuel trim but it stays nice and clean.  Like I mentioned above, I fully realize this much fueling is past the point of optimum efficiency, but I'm looking for maximum heat output with a maintainable clean burn, even if that means burning more fuel.  With those trim settings the stove can run for 48hrs, never come off high, and still have a clean burn when I shut it down to clean out the ash accumulation.

The burn pot is definitely not stainless - I'm thinking if I want to be able to push the heat I'm looking for then I'll need to fabricate a hardier burn pot with better material.  Maybe the 25-IP (which is rated for another 10k of output BTU) has a compatible burn pot of better material.  Still frustrating that the stove doesn't seem to be able to deliver it's advertised output without burning up the burn pot.


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## Michael6268 (Feb 16, 2015)

You can lower combustion air by simply partially blocking the air inlet or OAK with foil tape.


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## acammer (Feb 17, 2015)

Well, I submitted a warranty claim this morning for another burn pot and a request for Englander to contact me with whatever insight they can lend to these ongoing failures.  I'll let you guys know if I learn anything further to add to the conversation. 

I'm not convinced this is an over-air situation - I'm not burning the fuel bed down to the bottom of the pot, I've never blown the fire out when it's turned down all the way, I run the stove richer than the stock trim so it should be less of a problem than it potentially would be with the stock trim settings(which are significantly leaner).  I'm always doing the balancing act of running as much fuel as I can without having the burn go dirty.  I don't really have the symptoms of a "forge" that Smokey suggests either, so that leads me to conclude that the burn pot just isn't tough enough to tolerate long, hot burns.

For the sake of testing I re-trimmed the stove to the stove fueling point last night to stock (LFF 1 LBA 4 AOT 1) and kept an eye on the fuel in the burn pot and output temp.  Output temp is down about 15-20*F, and the burn pot floor has remained covered with pellets having at least a depth of 1.5 pellets.  The room that the stove is in ran at least 1*F cooler as well - that doesn't sound like a big deal but that room serves as a giant plenum of hot air that my cold air return picks up and pushes around the house via the furnace blower.  In other words, the air turns over really quick in that room, and thus a 1*F drop there is not insignificant.  When it warms up outside it's completely reasonable to run these trims, but when it's real cold like it has been the last several weeks I really need to get every BTU possible from the stove, and trimming up the fuel as much as I can while retaining a clean burn definitely yields more output.


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## SidecarFlip (Feb 17, 2015)

One extra question....  Are you running a humidifier and what is the RH?  By this time of year, with heating and no adding oif humidity, it can be drier than the Sahara desert in your house and dry air needs to be hotter for a person to feel warm because your body is aspirating moisture to make up for the dry air and that makes you feel cold.


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## acammer (Feb 17, 2015)

No humidifier here - and I actually have never tested the humidity in this house.  I can say that it is by far the least driest house I've ever had - but I'm sure it is still fairly dry.  That's something worth thinking about, and I'll keep it in mind.


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## SidecarFlip (Feb 17, 2015)

Well, unless you live in a hermetically sealed house, you are driving the ambient moisture out with artificial heat and even if it was hermetically sealed, opening a door lets the humidity out.

Go buy yourself a cheap RH gage or a sling psychometer if you want to spend some miney and check your RH.  I bet you'll be amazed how low it really is.


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## OhioBurner© (Feb 17, 2015)

Funny timing, my burn pot on my PAH just did one of those hole to hole cracks. Though mine appears in much worse shape overall with lots of metal flaked off here and there. Its not metal, its clinkers that look like metal, folks here usually said. Well I'm pretty sure now it was metal. Cause there ain't much metal left now lol.


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## SidecarFlip (Feb 17, 2015)

Another cheap azzed burn pot......  They all seem to be failing.  Not good.


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## acammer (Feb 17, 2015)

OhioBurner© said:


> Funny timing, my burn pot on my PAH just did one of those hole to hole cracks. Though mine appears in much worse shape overall with lots of metal flaked off here and there. Its not metal, its clinkers that look like metal, folks here usually said. Well I'm pretty sure now it was metal. Cause there ain't much metal left now lol.



How old is your stove, and what are your normal running conditions like?


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## OhioBurner© (Feb 18, 2015)

I bought mine in the fall, refurbed from amfm. Put about 3 tons through it so far. Not sure if you remember my issues but it degrades to the point of choking itself out in 1-2 weeks. Just did my final effort to get it to run right by pulling my chimney liner and running 4" duravent up it. Ran fine at first (that was last Tuesday) but right on que at 6-7 days I started to get soot again. And today, 8 days later I'm seeing smoke out the chimney, even after cranking the air up to 9 and dialing heat back to 6. So not sure what I'd call normal conditions. Usually 3-9 to 7-9 depending on temps, with 1-4-1 the first few days after a lbt, bumping up air to 5 or 6 once I notice degrading burn, the usually 2 days after that air is on 9 and heat dialed down to low limping until I get a day off for lbt.


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## acammer (Feb 18, 2015)

OhioBurner© said:


> I bought mine in the fall, refurbed from amfm. Put about 3 tons through it so far. Not sure if you remember my issues but it degrades to the point of choking itself out in 1-2 weeks. Just did my final effort to get it to run right by pulling my chimney liner and running 4" duravent up it. Ran fine at first (that was last Tuesday) but right on que at 6-7 days I started to get soot again. And today, 8 days later I'm seeing smoke out the chimney, even after cranking the air up to 9 and dialing heat back to 6.



Yours is the other bowed one, isn't it?  I think you simply must still have some air-flow issue somewhere.  Even with my fuel trimmed way up I can run 48hrs and still have a clean burn pot, and I only see sooting up after about 4-5 weeks and another 1+ ton pushed through.  Then I need to knock out the heat exchanger, clean the horizontal run in my vent pipe, and I'm good to go again.

It's good confirmation that I don't have the only failing PAH burnpot, we've seen a couple reported in the other thread with the 25-ip, and now find that yours is coming apart too.  All that information leads me to conclude that it's not a tuning issue on my end as much as it is materials that just can't "take the heat."  I'm sure that running at full power accelerates things to some extent in my case, but it looks like this is an issue that crops at some point for quite a few folks.


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## acammer (Feb 19, 2015)

A quick update - I heard from Englander yesterday.  First an e-mail indicating that they were sending out another burn pot.  I also received a phone call from their tech support and we talked through things - he couldn't find a reason that this should be happening.  I wondered if some how my pellets were high in sodium or something, but I find that unlikely as we've not heard any other Heatr's users with that complaint.  All in all I'll install this new burn pot and see how it goes.


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## OhioBurner© (Feb 20, 2015)

Here is mine a few days ago when this thread started.




And its degraded fast... a few other chunks apparently came apart between the first pic and when I shut it down yesterday to clean...




I have to admit though that up to this point the problems I've been dealing with have been less than optimal burns from time to time. Not sure how much that effected the demise of the pot, but its pretty obvious they can't stand up to too much of a beating. And one by one I've been trying to fix or implement whatever suggestions folks have had here.




acammer said:


> Yours is the other bowed one, isn't it? I think you simply must still have some air-flow issue somewhere. Even with my fuel trimmed way up I can run 48hrs and still have a clean burn pot, and I only see sooting up after about 4-5 weeks and another 1+ ton pushed through. Then I need to knock out the heat exchanger, clean the horizontal run in my vent pipe, and I'm good to go again.



Yeah and I don't mean to deviate from your thread... but I wonder if the pot in that condition is causing some of my current issues. I've noticed after I lined my chimney with 4" duravent that the pot stays clean. I switched to only cleaning it out every other day and the pot is clean each time with minimal build up. Before, once the burn started to degrade the pot would clog up with junk. Now my pot is staying clean, even yesterday, but I'm still getting soot on the glass and some smoke out the chimney. But I won't draw any conclusions until I have a proper burn pot installed. I sent in a warranty request. I'd shut down the stove entirely if it wasn't for the fact that it still seems to be throwing out plenty of heat and is desperately needed tonight as its suppose to get down around -10F with wind chills pushing it down to around -20. That's about the coldest it ever gets around here.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 20, 2015)

Don't get me started ohioburner,  chimney flues above a certain cross sectional area are problematic for pellet roasters as they impede proper air flow causing a reduction in ash ejection from the burn pot and other non-optimal things to happen.


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## SidecarFlip (Feb 20, 2015)

Dam thing looks like 16 gage sheet metal, it's mighty thin


SmokeyTheBear said:


> Don't get me started ohioburner,  chimney flues above a certain cross sectional area are problematic for pellet roasters as they impede proper air flow causing a reduction in ash ejection from the burn pot and other non-optimal things to happen.


 
You need to write a blanket post in Word, save it to a file and then copy and paste it in a post...  saves time and aggrivation.


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## OhioBurner© (Feb 20, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Don't get me started ohioburner,  chimney flues above a certain cross sectional area are problematic for pellet roasters as they impede proper air flow causing a reduction in ash ejection from the burn pot and other non-optimal things to happen.



Yes, of course, but I installed per the manual. The issue here is that either the manual is wishful thinking in what kind of chimney the PAH can vent into, and or just plain wrong or else there is still a defect in my stove. But like I said I'll wait until I have a proper burn pot and burn 2 weeks with it before I come to any conclusions.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 20, 2015)

OhioBurner© said:


> Yes, of course, but I installed per the manual. The issue here is that either the manual is wishful thinking in what kind of chimney the PAH can vent into, and or just plain wrong or else there is still a defect in my stove. But like I said I'll wait until I have a proper burn pot and burn 2 weeks with it before I come to any conclusions.



When connecting to an existing masonry chimney, the cross‐sectional area of the flue must be considered.

A chimney with a flue larger than 6” round (28.27sq.in.) may require relining with an approved pellet stove chimney lining system.


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## acammer (Feb 20, 2015)

OhioBurner© said:


> Here is mine a few days ago when this thread started.
> *picture removed*
> 
> And its degraded fast... a few other chunks apparently came apart between the first pic and when I shut it down yesterday to clean...
> ...



Wow, that's a wrecked pot.  As soon as mine took a turn in that direction I was asking for new ones, but I guess I can see where continuing to use it would have probably got mine there as well.  That just looks like the metal failing to me, which supports my conclusions.

For what it's worth I've been running all week with the fuel trimmed back to minimum for testing.  Overall as I noted initially I am seeing slightly lower temps on the heat exchanger exhaust - but I have noticed that it does seem to come up closer to my previous temps over a very long run.  Probably was able to get up to it's maximum temp a lot faster when it was more aggressively fueled, but it looks like the leaner burn can achieve similar temps if given a long run time.  The overall bed of fuel in the bottom of the burn pot has less depth with the leaner fueling, I would say barely 1 pellet to less than 1 pellet deep in some spots.  I'm not sure if this is better or worse for the pot, maybe there will be a little less heat trapped right against the bottom of the pot.  Carbon buildup, while not extreme at all before, is nearly non-existent with the present trim.  This seems to support Smokey's theory of a forge.  Overall, if I can get similar heat with the fuel pulled back, I'll just keep it there and see what his next pot can do.  What I'd really like is to be able to get more output, but I think I probably have "maxxed out" the design parameters of this stove.


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## OhioBurner© (Feb 20, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> When connecting to an existing masonry chimney, the cross‐sectional area of the flue must be considered.
> 
> A chimney with a flue larger than 6” round (28.27sq.in.) may require relining with an approved pellet stove chimney lining system.



I'm not sure what your getting at Smokey, like I said I followed the manual (and my flu was not over 6" round if that was what you were getting at).



acammer said:


> Wow, that's a wrecked pot. As soon as mine took a turn in that direction I was asking for new ones, but I guess I can see where continuing to use it would have probably got mine there as well. That just looks like the metal failing to me, which supports my conclusions.



My pot was already prety week over a larger area due to the metal flaking off over the past couple months. I first noticed it when we had our first blast of cold in Novemeber I think it was. The very first time I ran it on 9 for more than just a short bit. The next cleaning I noticed flakes coming off the pot, though many thought they were clinkers but now its a little more apparent.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 20, 2015)

OhioBurner© said:


> I'm not sure what your getting at Smokey, like I said I followed the manual (and my flu was not over 6" round if that was what you were getting at). ...snip



Exactly how large is your flue (length x width] because that little line is from your manual.


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## OhioBurner© (Feb 20, 2015)

Smokey, you probably don’t remember but discussing my problems with you on a different thread I posted a picture of that page in the manual.  so yes I am very familiar with the entire manual including that little line. My flue is 6" round which I lined myself a few years ago for my Hearthstone Shelburne. What I did about 2 weeks ago was reluctantly pull the liner out and put 4" duravent up the old chimney (about 15' tall).



	

		
			
		

		
	
  <Here is what it looks like now with duravent all the way, before packing the thimble with Roxul. Still have to finish it off with something to cover the thimble that looks nice though.

I don't want to derail acammer's thread though... got an email back from ESW saying a replacement burnpot is being sent out, so we'll see how the stove performs when I get it.

Just for the heck of it, I dug up a pic I took of it way back Dec 1 when I first noticed bits of metal flaking and chunking off. I had flaking on the outside that I wasn’t sure if it was paint or some kind of coating. On the inside of the pot there looked to be a few spots as well...




And here you can see the flaking on the outside. Also taken Dec 1, after a little over a month of burning maybe?


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## adam6979 (Feb 21, 2015)

I would suspect a flaw in the metal of your pots - perhaps over heating by an inexperienced welder? I seen that degradation in miscellanous items that were "over-heated" by poor welding skills. If it was my stove I would plasma out the bottom and re-weld a new floor in it.... but then again you need welding skills too..


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 21, 2015)

adam6979 said:


> I would suspect a flaw in the metal of your pots - perhaps over heating by an inexperienced welder? I seen that degradation in miscellanous items that were "over-heated" by poor welding skills. If it was my stove I would plasma out the bottom and re-weld a new floor in it.... but then again you need welding skills too..



Along with that you also have excess chlorides in the pellets, improper air/fuel ratios, and even the cleaning of the the pot.   Lots of interesting thermal and chemical induced things outside of possible improper grade of metal being used for the burn pot.

You can have any combination of the above at work at the same time in a single pot pelletized fuel does not evenly distribute itself over the burn pot bottom.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 21, 2015)

Your stove produces among other things H2O, CO2, CO, C , and byproducts of any chlorides in the fuel.  C, and CO are all voracious oxygen consumers, when the C is burned the temperature is very high (metalworking conditions).   Chlorine and H2O are corrosive, as are other byproducts of the process.

Thermal stress by itself can over time crack the metal due to repeated heating and cooling cycles.


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## acammer (Feb 23, 2015)

My new pot landed Saturday, I'll be dropping it in at my next cleaning this evening or tomorrow morning.  Both of my old pots do have metal flaking off of them.  I definitely understand what Smokey is saying about how the combustion process can attack and erode the material through a variety of means (chemical, thermal, etc).  However, I believe that these pots should be engineered to tolerate these conditions to a extent further than the appear to be able to.  I had 30 days on a new burn pot before a opening formed between holes on the bottom.  I was diligent in my cleaning, the stove is unmodified, and I've never heard any complaints that the fuel I'm burning creates any issues regarding burn pot degradation.  (It is renown for sticking in the hopper - Gosh I hate Heatr's, never again!)  30 days and then failure is a materials defect - accelerated by maximum load, but a defect none the less.


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## LordmetalZ28 (Feb 23, 2015)

Where having the same problem with our ashley 5660l burn pots. The problem is cheap chinese crap metal. ( yes my stove is spotless all nooks and crannies, chimney pipe, combustion motor removed all flue passages clean, before somebody starts that conversation) its not your fault. My burn pot is actually getting built today as we speak at a machine shop with better materials. Thats the only solution in my eyes.


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## acammer (Feb 23, 2015)

LordmetalZ28 said:


> Where having the same problem with our ashley 5660l burn pots. The problem is cheap chinese crap metal. ( yes my stove is spotless all nooks and crannies, chimney pipe, combustion motor removed all flue passages clean, before somebody starts that conversation) its not your fault. My burn pot is actually getting built today as we speak at a machine shop with better materials. Thats the only solution in my eyes.



I'm pursuing a similar route - having a better burn pot built.


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## mchasal (Feb 23, 2015)

LordmetalZ28 said:


> My burn pot is actually getting built today as we speak at a machine shop with better materials. Thats the only solution in my eyes.





acammer said:


> I'm pursuing a similar route - having a better burn pot built.





Would be interested in knowing the details of your builds. Type of steel, costs, etc. Of course how well it performs as you use it also.


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## LordmetalZ28 (Feb 23, 2015)

mchasal said:


> Would be interested in knowing the details of your builds. Type of steel, costs, etc. Of course how well it performs as you use it also.


Ill keep posted. The shop is trying to go thicker with metal not from the east end of the world


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## adam6979 (Feb 23, 2015)

Exactly what I would suggest for anyone - if you have the resources or the contacts get a better one made, for everyone else keep buying from the same factory that makes money on replacing them... I think 1/4" stainless could make a heck of a burn pot.... or possibly AR500 as long the temps do not exceed the tempering... I know we shoot at it with 556 and 308's with 1000's of rounds and not a blemish... might make a great pot if you can find someone to work with the materials. My current pot in my 55trpah is now in it's 3rd year and I just noticed it is starting to burn through in a couple small areas... if I buy another one and it lasts another 3 years I'd be happy.. but most likely I will cut out the floor and replace with another piece of 1/4" flat stock.


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## acammer (Feb 27, 2015)

Hey all - I finally got around to dropping my new burn pot last night after spending a week fighting with the roof, the plow frame on the RZR, the garage door opener, the bathroom sink, etc (I just love being a homeowner).  I took a couple of pictures just for comparisons sake  Couple interesting things between the pots - the newest pot seems to have the largest holes of the three.  This is really evident on the front vertical wall of the pot.  In that same photo you can see on both of the failed pots that there is metal flaking off of the pot at the edge of the front wall and floor of the pot.  The failures are both near this area, and can be seen in the picture of the bottoms of the pots.  





Finally, I snapped an interesting photo of the second burn pot that really shows the metal flaking off.  Its interesting to note that this is even occurring on the front wall where it is the coolest of any point on the pot.  When that big chunk fell off I heard it clank on the floor, it's definitely metal and not a build up.  This sort of degradation is what occurs to the bottom of the pot as well, just cheap metal.  




I don't have any high hopes for the new pot they sent, but I am working with someone to have a stainless steel version constructed which should tolerate whatever I throw at it.  It may be several weeks before I have that in hand, but I'll grab some pictures once I do.


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## OhioBurner© (Feb 28, 2015)

I got my new pot put in a few days ago also. I hear you about home ownership. My next week off in my rotation I plan on ripping out two rooms with original plaster and lath walls in the upstairs that have uninsulated walls and ceiling, and the laundry room downstairs which has all sorts of cold air leaking up from the basement and between the walls of the addition.

I'd consider having one fabbed up locally out of stainless but I'm still half tempted to upgrade to a nicer stove, and sell the PAH (if I can be sure its running decently finally). There is such a jump in price to a nice unit though. Seems there isn't much in the middle? $1000 for a refurb ESW, $1500 for new. Or $4000 for a new Quad, Harman, etc... so where are all the $2-3k stoves? Anyhow, topic for a different thread. Along with the burn pot I got new combustion blower gaskets finally so I can pull it and do a true deep clean. Just waiting on a bit warmer weather and the time off. Below zero this morning, hopefully for the last time this winter.Was going to try to do it all at once, but couldn't wait on the pot mine was literally falling apart. The hole was big enough, and I was desperate to keep it running in the cold, that I put a chunk of brick in the bottom of the pot to cover up the gaping hole that pellets could just fall through lol. But as soon as I got the new pot I put it in.

I didn't compare side by side my new pots, but I did carry the new one out to the garage to find some drill bits to clean the holes with. I think my reaming with a flat screwdriver with the cheap burn pot isnt the best method and probably contributes to wearing the metal out. The small holes I picked an 11/64" bit and the big ones 15/64". The holes might have been a 64th larger but I didn't want to take the chance of tearing into the side of the hole if the bit wasn't perfectly aligned. Plus I won't miss those odd sizes from the set if I leave them permanently by the stove.


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## SidecarFlip (Feb 28, 2015)

adam6979 said:


> Exactly what I would suggest for anyone - if you have the resources or the contacts get a better one made, for everyone else keep buying from the same factory that makes money on replacing them... I think 1/4" stainless could make a heck of a burn pot.... or possibly AR500 as long the temps do not exceed the tempering... I know we shoot at it with 556 and 308's with 1000's of rounds and not a blemish... might make a great pot if you can find someone to work with the materials. My current pot in my 55trpah is now in it's 3rd year and I just noticed it is starting to burn through in a couple small areas... if I buy another one and it lasts another 3 years I'd be happy.. but most likely I will cut out the floor and replace with another piece of 1/4" flat stock.


 
Impact resistance and heat resistance have nothing in common with each other.... at all.  AR 500 is strictly an impact resistant steel and would make a poor but expensive burn pot.

I really think the root of the issue is the steel is substandard.  Heat resistant sheet/plate would work just fine actually.


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## acammer (Mar 2, 2015)

SidecarFlip said:


> I really think the root of the issue is the steel is substandard.  Heat resistant sheet/plate would work just fine actually.



I have to agree.  Take a look at these pictures of my new burn-pot after just 48hrs of running (at full power, with the factory (lean) settings).  You can see on the bottom of the pot metal is already flaking off, as well as some real big chunks on the back side.  It's interesting to note that the worst of the degradation seems to happen not inside the pot, where the fire is, but on the outside/bottom.  

@stoveguy2esw - is this normal?  Why are these burn pots coming apart like this?


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## adam6979 (Mar 2, 2015)

That scorching (per se) of the metal looks like what happens when I heat up a frozen nut with acetylene torch... it flakes and cracks and the o2 blows off pieces of the metal, the next phase is cutting through the fastener. In my opinion, either you have a significantly gas rich air supply or those pots are junk, (or both I guess). If that is a brand new pot I would be getting in touch with ESW to replace it under warranty and have them figure out what is happening. $68 pots are going to get expensive for you quickly.


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## adam6979 (Mar 2, 2015)

SidecarFlip said:


> Impact resistance and heat resistance have nothing in common with each other.... at all.  AR 500 is strictly an impact resistant steel and would make a poor but expensive burn pot.
> 
> I really think the root of the issue is the steel is substandard.  Heat resistant sheet/plate would work just fine actually.


I believe you to be right, impact wouldn't be the same as heat - why I said perhaps - not a suggestion to do it.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Mar 2, 2015)

Could you time your feed system and post what you get for auger on/off times on that stove?

Also what pellets are you burning?


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## acammer (Mar 2, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Could you time your feed system and post what you get for auger on/off times on that stove?
> 
> Also what pellets are you burning?



For the high heat range (where I do 85% of my running)?  I am burning Heatr's pellets - is there a thought that they might have a corrosive contribution to this type of wear?  I haven't noticed any odd wear/corrosion anywhere else, although the pot would be at the epicenter of this.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Mar 2, 2015)

Yes on the timing for the high heat range.


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## acammer (Mar 2, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Yes on the timing for the high heat range.



Will do at my next shutdown - when it comes back up after being off I usually get 3 minutes or so after it comes out of startup before the convection fan starts running where I can hear the auger motor well enough to get accurate results.  Trying to get a feel for the lbs/hr?


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## SmokeyTheBear (Mar 2, 2015)

acammer said:


> Will do at my next shutdown - when it comes back up after being off I usually get 3 minutes or so after it comes out of startup before the convection fan starts running where I can hear the auger motor well enough to get accurate results.  Trying to get a feel for the lbs/hr?



Nope trying to get a feel for if the controller is feeding more than it should because it feeds for too long and or is off for too short a period.


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## acammer (Mar 2, 2015)

I'll grab some timing on off numbers.  I'll try to get the timing with the stock trim, as well as the timing with the trim up about as far as I tend to be able to run it while maintaining a clean burn.  I'll be interested to hear your thoughts.  I really wish Mike Holton would get in on this thread and lend some comments to why these pots are coming apart like this.  I know he's real busy, maybe he'll notice the tag when he logs on next.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Mar 2, 2015)

acammer said:


> I'll grab some timing on off numbers.  I'll try to get the timing with the stock trim, as well as the timing with the trim up about as far as I tend to be able to run it while maintaining a clean burn.  I'll be interested to hear your thoughts.  I really wish Mike Holton would get in on this thread and lend some comments to why these pots are coming apart like this.  I know he's real busy, maybe he'll notice the tag when he logs on next.



That is why I asked for the timing information I have already sent Mike a message and pointed him to the pictures,


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## acammer (Mar 2, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> That is why I asked for the timing information I have already sent Mike a message and pointed him to the pictures,


Thanks.  I'm not out to point fingers or play a blame game, I just really want to get to the bottom of this.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 2, 2015)

adam6979 said:


> I believe you to be right, impact wouldn't be the same as heat - why I said perhaps - not a suggestion to do it.


 
I'm not one to toot my own horn but I am in the steel business in my real life.....  The ideal steel to use is fire resistant, boiler plate steel.  Fire resistant steel refers to the steel's ability to resist heat induced oxidation, which, is what is occuring in this case.  I bet those pots are A36 low carbon sheet or cheap azzed steel.  Fine to make the stove cabinet from, not so good for a firepot.


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## OhioBurner© (Mar 2, 2015)

My new one looks about the same after just a few days...




Burning Somersets which is a very common and sought after pellet. I ran it near high (up to 8 for around a day) but the rest of the time has been in the 4-7 range mostly. Air and fuel trim on factory default and seem to be good best I can tell.


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## woodmakesheat (Mar 2, 2015)

I guess I shouldn't be so concerned that I get some discoloration of the stainless pot in my CPM. Something is not right with the way that metal is decomposing.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 2, 2015)

Looks to be cheap azzed steel (possibly Chinese)...lol


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 2, 2015)

I can make stainless do that too.  At least 3 series.


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## acammer (Mar 3, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> That is why I asked for the timing information I have already sent Mike a message and pointed him to the pictures,



On heat level 9, lff trim 1 I see about 3.5 seconds on and then 4 seconds off for cycles.  With the lff set to 5 (where I get max heat without a dirty burn) I see about 4 seconds on, then 4 seconds off.  Thoughts?


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## SmokeyTheBear (Mar 3, 2015)

I'm not the one that needs to comment as I don't have the timing information for that stove.   Mike last posted back on February 20 but was on the site at 3:01 PM yesterday.

Just to hurry things along give them a call and stuff.  Operating under the squeaky wheel rules of the road with that suggestion.  He doesn't have to pay attention to a PM from me as I'm not a customer not that he wouldn't normally take a look see.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 3, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> I'm not the one that needs to comment as I don't have the timing information for that stove.   Mike last posted back on February 20 but was on the site at 3:01 PM yesterday.
> 
> Just to hurry things along give them a call and stuff.  Operating under the squeaky wheel rules of the road with that suggestion.  He doesn't have to pay attention to a PM from me as I'm not a customer not that he wouldn't normally take a look see.


 
I think the manufacturers and reps are at a show someplace warm and sunny this week......................


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## acammer (Mar 3, 2015)

I sent over the photos and requested a call back from management.  We'll see what happens next.


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## rexrules (Mar 8, 2015)

Did you hear back from yet? I am ready to order a new burn pot for a 25ep, but I want to see if there was ever a resolution to your issues.


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## acammer (Mar 9, 2015)

rexrules said:


> Did you hear back from yet? I am ready to order a new burn pot for a 25ep, but I want to see if there was ever a resolution to your issues.



I received the following reply from Englander last week:

"_That is very uncommon of the burnpots to do that. All of the burnpots we make are made from the same metal. What is the ash content per pound of the pellets you are using and are the preimum hardwood?  I am not familar with that speific brand and just would like to get as much information as I can to check with the burn lab.  We have not had any other customers experience what you are expericencing with the burnpots.  This stove has been on the market for 5 years and several of our ownl techs here use that same stove and have never experienced anything like that.  On average burnpot have been lasting about 3 years.  I will be more than happy to send you another replacement but would like the feed back regarding the pellets so that I can find out with our burn lab_."

I received a 4th burn pot Friday.  Looks just like all the other ones did when they were new.  This one has a a bunch of spatter on the bottom of the sealing flange from the welds, I'll knock that off with a screwdriver before I put it into service so it doesn't have any sealing issues.  I provided Englander with all the details I could gather about my fuel, and I told them I would hold off on using this pot until I was able to secure alternate fuel.  Turns out that it's been quite a scramble for pellets in central New York and NOBODY has any.  I'm just gonna keep calling around, but it's not looking good, at least for the short term.  I've also offered to send them back one of the old pots for analysis, so far they haven't taken me up on it, but they may be waiting to complete their research on the fuel.

So, overall they've been extremely stand up about this.  I just want to get a pot that lasts - hopefully it turns out it really is something with the fuel and it's solved that easily.  But, I wouldn't rule out a metallurgy issue either, these things are just flaking and crumbling way too quickly.  The newest pot I have is the worse, it has big flakes of metal that fall of it every time I clean it up!

I'll keep everyone posted.  @OhioBurner© - How is your new pot holding up?  Still flaking apart?


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## mchasal (Mar 9, 2015)

My new pot (from the previous thread) has been running about 6 weeks and it is starting to show some of the same signs. Bits of metal flaking off. It hasn't gotten anywhere near what my other one was, but I doubt it will last the 3 years they're saying should be the useful life. 

I'm a bit surprised about their claim of ignorance here, @stoveguy2esw  has been tagged in several of these threads, but I guess he doesn't necessarily talk to everyone at the company about what's going on here. The lack of comment in any of these threads is a bit distressing too. I suppose I could have highlighted why I was buying the new pot, but I was out of warranty and figured I'd just buy it, at least the first one. 

The concern about the ash content troubles me as well. Shouldn't a stove be designed and built to handle commonly available fuels? I can understand lousy pellets causing dirtier burns and needing more cleaning but actually destroying the burn pot in a few weeks shouldn't be happening. I could also understand if you were burning some non-approved fuel, like maybe grass pellets, corn, or pits in a stove not rated for it, but one should not have to conduct an analysis of their fuel in order to keep the stove from self destructing. 

I've been burning the one's from Lowes, (North American's blend) and they certainly are ashy and I find I have to empty the ash pan about twice as often, but if I'm going to need to 3 burn pots a year, I'm going to have to reevaluate things.


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## EviLScotsMaN (Mar 9, 2015)

I have a 25-PAH, my first burnpot lasted 2 years, my second burnpot cracked less than a year. I just called England stove works, I missed the warranty on that burnpot by less than a month...FML!! We shouldn't have to buy new burnpots once or even twice a year for some.


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## acammer (Apr 6, 2015)

Here is another update in the ongoing burn-pot saga.  First, an update on the 2nd replacement pot.  I've burn a little more in it since I last posted in this thread, but not a lot as I've run out my supply of pellets.  It has continued to erode much the same as all the others.  I have no doubt that I'll have a similar failure with that one before too long.  Also, the performance of that third pot is very poor compared to the first two burn pots I used.  I believe it is leaking around the flange, it runs significantly richer than the other two pots.

Two days ago I was able to get 16 bags of an alternate fuel and install my 3rd replacement burn pot, the 4th new burn pot I've burned in this stove this year.  I picked up 16 bags of Cheat River pellets from Lowes.  I cleaned the hopper out, purged all the old Heatr's pellets, and fired up with the new stuff.  The test here was to attempt to prove/disprove if the fuel was causing some sort of chemical reaction that was accelerating the erosion of the burn pot.  Well, after only about 24hrs of running this burn pot is proving to come apart just like the others, with thin flakes of metal falling off, primarily on the front bottom in exactly the same place all of the other pots failed.  I'm not sure what else to do with this problem, other than have a higher quality pot made.  I'm going to reach out to Englander and see what they have to say, but my expectations arn't high - I think it's really as simple as just a cheap pot.  I'll let you guys know if anything further develops.


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## OhioBurner© (Apr 7, 2015)

Mine is continuing to flake as well. Also I put a ton of cheat river through the PAH earlier in the season. That happens to be when I was having all my problems though, so I can't really judge the pellets. It could be they were contributing, but more than likely they were fine and the problems was my gaskets and venting. Lowes never had them again after the ton I bought last fall.


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## mrmojo182 (Oct 24, 2015)

So was there any resolution on this burnpot issue?  I'll search for another thread, but from the posts it looks like heating season might have ended with no real resolution.  Sorry to rehash an old discussion, but I'm considering an englander.


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## acammer (Oct 25, 2015)

mrmojo182 said:


> So was there any resolution on this burnpot issue?  I'll search for another thread, but from the posts it looks like heating season might have ended with no real resolution.  Sorry to rehash an old discussion, but I'm considering an englander.



I unfortunately did not have an resolution to this issue.  I burned through the remainder of the Cheat River pellets as an alternate fuel test but it had no effect on the issue - ever single burnpot I have from Englander has began eroding shortly after beginning to run it.  I was very cautious not to overheat and/or push the most recent burnpots too hard, but that seems to have not had an effect on this condition.  I intend to pursue a stainless steel burnpot in the future, but I have not this season as I am only burning pellets on a very limited basis - propane is just as cost effective and zero work, so until the pellet prices come back down, or gas goes back up, I'll just be running occasionally when I need focused heat in that section of my home.  

It's a shame, because other than that issue I'm fairly happy with my stove.  If I had it to do over again, I'd have bought an IP-25 for the additional heat output capacity - but it's hard to beat the value of the 25-PAH.  Englander has always been very stand up in their customer service - they replaced this burn pot three times! - but unfortunately they need to do better than replacing it, as the problem is with the pot itself.


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## mrmojo182 (Oct 26, 2015)

acammer said:


> I unfortunately did not have an resolution to this issue.  I burned through the remainder of the Cheat River pellets as an alternate fuel test but it had no effect on the issue - ever single burnpot I have from Englander has began eroding shortly after beginning to run it.  I was very cautious not to overheat and/or push the most recent burnpots too hard, but that seems to have not had an effect on this condition.  I intend to pursue a stainless steel burnpot in the future, but I have not this season as I am only burning pellets on a very limited basis - propane is just as cost effective and zero work, so until the pellet prices come back down, or gas goes back up, I'll just be running occasionally when I need focused heat in that section of my home.
> 
> It's a shame, because other than that issue I'm fairly happy with my stove.  If I had it to do over again, I'd have bought an IP-25 for the additional heat output capacity - but it's hard to beat the value of the 25-PAH.  Englander has always been very stand up in their customer service - they replaced this burn pot three times! - but unfortunately they need to do better than replacing it, as the problem is with the pot itself.


Thanks for getting back to me, I appreciate it immensely. Sucks there hasn't been a resolution on it.  I'm strongly considering the cpm-10.  It's got the stainless burnpot and agitator so it can burn anything.


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## Screamin Rebel (Nov 27, 2015)

Any update on this? My PAH is less than year old and burn pot is fried. Poor steel quality is what I'm leaning to. Can't upload a pic, but its bad!


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## OhioBurner© (Nov 27, 2015)

My second one is flaking pretty bad. I'd consider custom stainless one too but this stove inst really working out for me. Even after changing my venting I'm still getting pretty short cycles between the stove getting clogged up and a dirty burn, so not sure if I am going to keep it or not. I know pellets stoves still require some maintenance but having to get up on the roof every month and run brushes and pull out combustion blowers is WAY to much work for me  and a big pain to be doing when its below zero out.


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## Screamin Rebel (Nov 28, 2015)

OhioBurner© said:


> My second one is flaking pretty bad. I'd consider custom stainless one too but this stove inst really working out for me. Even after changing my venting I'm still getting pretty short cycles between the stove getting clogged up and a dirty burn, so not sure if I am going to keep it or not. I know pellets stoves still require some maintenance but having to get up on the roof every month and run brushes and pull out combustion blowers is WAY to much work for me  and a big pain to be doing when its below zero out.


Is your burn pot sitting level in the cradle?  Mine had weld burrs on the corners and kept it from sitting correctly in the cradle.  It burned really dirty until I filed the burrs off. As for the stove I probably will go back to a USSC stove. My first stove was a USSC and the burn pot in it is the original and still looks good 5 years later also I could fine tune the feed and air so it always was a clean burn.


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## Screamin Rebel (Nov 29, 2015)

Screamin Rebel said:


> Is your burn pot sitting level in the cradle?  Mine had weld burrs on the corners and kept it from sitting correctly in the cradle.  It burned really dirty until I filed the burrs off. As for the stove I probably will go back to a USSC stove. My first stove was a USSC and the burn pot in it is the original and still looks good 5 years later also I could fine tune the feed and air so it always was a clean burn.



Now the ignitor went bad. Really don't care for this stove. Bought American made for quality and paid more for this stove then comparable others and this thing is poorly made with garbage parts


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## Michael6268 (Nov 29, 2015)

Yeah. Englander owners get mad at me for saying, but they are price beater stoves and the quality lacks big time. I owned a few.


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## acammer (Nov 30, 2015)

So, no resolution on this for me - I've cooked several burn pots and Englander just keeps sending me replacements that fail.  I'm out of warranty at this period, so I guess I'm on my own.  I'm looking at having a stainless pot made in the future.

Something you guys with dirty burns might want to try - take your airwash bar (which doesn't seem to work very well anyways as far as keeping the glass clean) and flip it on it's back, covering the airwash holes.  What you've done is just divert all that air through the burn pot.  You'll dirty the glass even quicker - but you may find that you'll get the air/fuel ratio closer to where you need it, especially at higher fuel loads.  

For my situation, I was always trying to get maximum heat out of the stove, so the more fuel I can cleanly burn, the better.  Once I ran out of the warranty period I tired this setup and found I could burn almost all it would feed pretty cleanly.  The limiting factor became the burn pot, which would get hot enough to begin to glow on the face.  I never hit the high limit switch, but I was concerned about really shortening the life of the burn pot, so I backed down a bit to where I didn't get it glowing, and settled there.  I'm hoping that if/when I get a better burn pot I'll be able to run this thing real hard and see what she'll really do.  However, this year I'm all gas, didn't even buy pellets.  The pellet stove was always about cheapest heat, and this year that's propane.


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## Screamin Rebel (Dec 1, 2015)

Yeah they won't replace my burn pot either. Not happy about it as its only a month after warranty ran out. I'm going to fabricate my own out of stainless and then probably sell the stove. I had a ussc stove (gave it to my mother-in-law) it's now 5 years old and still runs geat, burn pot in it is still factory and looks great.


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## acammer (Dec 1, 2015)

Screamin Rebel said:


> Yeah they won't replace my burn pot either. Not happy about it as its only a month after warranty ran out. I'm going to fabricate my own out of stainless and then probably sell the stove. I had a ussc stove (gave it to my mother-in-law) it's now 5 years old and still runs geat, burn pot in it is still factory and looks great.



Yea, I feel the pain.  I've got 4 burn-pots, and they are all junk.  I shouldn't have to be spending money to have parts fabricated because the OE part can't make it a month at rated capacity.  I've reached out to Englander and provided extensive information, and never received any explanation or permanent fix.  I've reached out directly to Mike at Englander on the forums, but never received any type of response at all.  I really wanted to support and be an advocate for a local, east coast, American manufacturer, but they are making that very difficult to do.  I realize that cutting costs is a crucial part of staying competitive in a market saturated with foreign competition with access to cheap labor and materials, but if your product doesn't hold up, you've got to find another way.

@stoveguy2esw - I'm tagging you in this because I'll hope you'll read this.  If you've got a response or more information about these burn pot failures there are several of us here that would really like to hear something better than the "no explanation, here's another pot" line, or worse, "your out of warranty, sorry."  Even if you don't reply, I hope this is valuable insight for your company, whom I really want to be successful.


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## OhioBurner© (Dec 1, 2015)

Screamin Rebel said:


> Is your burn pot sitting level in the cradle?


At some point the edge of the pot warped enough that it wasn't sitting perfect, but a gasket between the burn pot and cradle fixed that though I can't tell if it helped my situation at all.


Screamin Rebel said:


> Now the igniter went bad. Really don't care for this stove. Bought American made for quality and paid more for this stove then comparable others and this thing is poorly made with garbage parts


Igniters go bad in stoves that cost thousands too. I wouldn't be to judgmental on the igniter. I've never heard anyone 'paying more for Englander quality' though, that's a good one! Only a few stoves out there are cheaper, and a lot of stoves out there are more expensive.



Michael6268 said:


> Yeah. Englander owners get mad at me for saying, but they are price beater stoves and the quality lacks big time. I owned a few.


When I bought mine, I was thinking these are good stoves that were cheaper because of lacking all the bling and advanced features. I was hoping the quality and performance of the basic stove would be good though. I just didn't need a fancy one with a cast iron jacket and pretty accents, or majolica porcelain finish, etc. I just wanted a good plain stove, but so far I'm not impressed.

I'm still waiting to hear back from Mike, or I may just call them here at some point for suggestions. I got to say though the stove did really save my ass _mostly_, last winter. That is while it was running good. It just takes way to much work to keep this thing running.



acammer said:


> Something you guys with dirty burns might want to try


I might try that. I'm not entirely convinced though the stove burns 'dirty', since after a fresh cleaning it seems to burn nice and clean for several days, or a week or two. I might be giving the stove the benefit of a doubt still, but it could simply be that the 'normal' amount of ash in the exhaust is building up to the point where it forces the stove to not breath properly? It was suggested on another forum that I try to replace my elbow with a tee and elevate the stove so I can actually suck out the accumulated ash more easily/frequently in the first section of piping. I might try that but I'm reluctant at this point to put more money into the venting after I've already re done it once. And those tee's are pricey. But after I put 4" duravent up my leafblower doesn't fit the venting anymore so until I think of something it is going to be even harder to clean it out frequently.


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## wazilian (Jan 18, 2016)

So nothing more from Englander about our burn pots eh? I think the past 2 or 3 seasons I've gone through about 4-5 pots and they are failing at the same places as what has been shown/described in this thread. I wish there was more that could be done. I guess its time a few of us buy a welder...


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## slvrblkk (Jan 18, 2016)

Someone on the forum was going to make me a stainless steel pot. After sending an old but good burnpot I have not heard from them in 7 months. Might be worth taking to a fab shop and see what they can do with it?


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## acammer (Jan 20, 2016)

wazilian said:


> So nothing more from Englander about our burn pots eh? I think the past 2 or 3 seasons I've gone through about 4-5 pots and they are failing at the same places as what has been shown/described in this thread. I wish there was more that could be done. I guess its time a few of us buy a welder...



Yea, I have never received resolution from Englander.  I really want to like the stove and the company, but they've made it pretty tough with the obvious lack of quality.  I should grab you guys some pictures of the rust inside my stove - it's just cheap steel everywhere.  I honestly should have left the much older, much more manual, and much better built Winrich Dynasty in place - in a few more years I'll need to replace this rusting pile of junk, where as the 'ol Dynasty would probably still be going strong.

I am going to look into building my own pot out of some more robust steel if fuel prices go back up and I start running the stove more often.  For this season, propane is just too cheap and easy to even think about running the stove more than once or twice a week when we've got people over in the basement recreation area where it resides.


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## Michael6268 (Jan 20, 2016)

Sorry to hear about your problems. Ive owned a few Englanders myself. I agree with you on all counts. I don't understand where Englander got this great reputation on this website. The fact is. They are low quality stoves that are cheaply made with very little quality control. If you browse through this website you will see post after post of people having to do repairs on new stoves, modify new stoves to make them work properly,etc. Even though they're inexpensive stoves compared to others, one shouldn't have to do that when shelling out $1,000 +.
Everyone raves about the customer service from Englander. If that were true, Mike H would be addressing this problem.  And his service team would be addressing this issue also. Truth of the matter is, the fact that so many people talk about Englanders Customer Service, good or bad, says something about their quality. The best Customer Service and sign of a good quality product is the Customer Service you don't have to use.

I've read this post in the past and been keeping up with it somewhat. I think this has been addressed before, but the problems you are having might be due to too much air. Running a little richer might lessen the intense heat in the burn pot.


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## OhioBurner© (Jan 24, 2016)

My replacement pot is beginning to fail. Different spot though, in the front wall instead of the bottom. Are they part of the 1 yr or 3 yr warranty?

I've tried to call their support line for a couple weeks, I've pretty much given up. Not burn pot but just about the poor burn of my stove. I've tried everything, taken a lot of advice here and on the other forum, but has made no difference. Their website also mentions email for warranty support so I've tried that, and then a week or more later sent another, and still nothing. Great customer service my butt.

At least on my own I have mostly figured out that the problem is buildup in the inaccessible (another great design feature) parts of the stove and whacking on the back and opening up the exhaust ports and vacuuming helps. I just have to tear it down in about every 2 weeks. Before I was pulling the pipe out and cleaning it, and getting the ladder out and on the roof and cleaning the pipe every couple weeks. That got old real fast! Still get a lot of buildup in the pipes, but leaving it be hasn't changed my cleaning cycle these last few weeks.


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## OhioBurner© (Feb 9, 2016)

Just checking to see if anyone looked more into getting a custom SS pot fabricated? I wonder if the cost of a custom pot might go down if we had a few of us in on the order and making an order of several pots. Mine just opened up a hole bridging maybe 3 holes together, so it's on its last leg and I guess the pot was only part of the 1-yr warranty so $64 for a new one this time. Going through a couple burn pots a season significantly adds to the expense of burning pellets.


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## acammer (Feb 10, 2016)

OhioBurner© said:


> Just checking to see if anyone looked more into getting a custom SS pot fabricated? I wonder if the cost of a custom pot might go down if we had a few of us in on the order and making an order of several pots. Mine just opened up a hole bridging maybe 3 holes together, so it's on its last leg and I guess the pot was only part of the 1-yr warranty so $64 for a new one this time. Going through a couple burn pots a season significantly adds to the expense of burning pellets.



I have not pursued this yet - but if I return to using pellet fuel as my primary heat source in a future season I will be looking into some sort of permanent fix for this.  I am tempted to just toss the stove on craigslist and start over with something better built, but I will probably see what mileage I can get out of this before I give up completely.  This season the stove is only being run occasionally, maybe 2-3x weekly for a total of 12-24hrs/wk, and it's typically running on a much lower heat setting, so my pot wear has slowed.  Once I go back to heating the whole house it'll be wide open 20hrs/day every day and I'm sure I'll need something more robust.

@OhioBurner©  - did you try the airwash bar blocking off the airwash holes?  See posted #86 above.  That really upped the airflow through my burn pot, and might help you with your dirty burn issue.


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## OhioBurner© (Feb 10, 2016)

Yeah I did, I used some excess flat gasket I laid across the holes then set the airwash bar ontop of the gasket to weigh it down in place. Didn't make any difference.

I can't remember what all I have said, but I have come to some realizations. I don't think my burn is dirty, at least at the lower settings when its clean. Best I can tell it burns very well (but this is my first pellet stove so hard to say for sure). The problem is the short intervals between cleaning and after all the fixes I have done (gaskets, changing venting, oak, etc) I think it is burning clean now just gets gummed up fairly quick (~2 weeks). Part of the issue I think is the lack of understanding the labyrinth behind the firebox and how the ash was getting trapped in there. I stuck my finger in there and also probed around with a small screwdriver trying to figure out what all was back there, and came across a huge pile of ash. Yeah I bang the back of the firebox and vacuum out the exhaust ports but I just came to realize that my ash vac was not getting the ash just beside the exhaust ports. I stuck a small putty knife into the port (just barely fits) and use it like a hoe to rake the ash over to the port opening. There was a lot of ash there. I had no idea that stuff was behind there and my ash vac wasn't getting it. To reach most of it I had to hold the putty knife by my finger tips as far as I could reach through the port. I filled the port up to spilling over like 4 times at least. I'm wondering now how long my next cleaning interval is... maybe that was the key. I will have to try to make some kind of hose attachment so I can get my ash vac in there better. I hate how all this ash gets trapped in inaccessible parts of the stove.

I've done some basic fabrication in the past, but all I have is a harbor freight abrasive cut off saw and their portable 100A arc welder. Built a whole trailer with that though! I'm not sure if just any cheap stainless will work or what the grades are. If I get my hands on some bar stock, would a regular ol arc welder rod stick stainless together good enough to hold for a burn pot? I think I have some 7018 rods in a couple sizes in the garage.


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## OhioBurner© (Feb 29, 2016)

Ok so I have just about everything I need, going to make my own stainless steel burn pot.

Could someone verify the size of the holes? I am ready to drill maybe today or tomorrow just wanted to double check since my holes are heavily scaled/corroded/rusted. The small holes a 5/32 fits in well, some a little loose some I couldn't quite get the bit in. The larger holes a 13/64 bit is just a tad loose, I'm guessing its 7/32 but I can't seem to find a bit that size at the moment. Just wanted to double check. I'm rigging up a bottle of antifreeze with a small tube to hopefully lube and cool the bit while drilling so I don't overheat it (lots of drilling!) I read that somewhere hope it works out as I don't have a bit sharpener and hope I don't go through multiple drillbits.


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## Shane1 (Mar 1, 2016)

Not sure of the sizes but just remember when drilling metal go nice and slow. Let the drill bit do the work.


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## OhioBurner© (Mar 2, 2016)

Done with the drilling, my rigged up dispenser with some rv antifreeze I have laying around worked really well to keep things cool cutting all those holes. Now just to keep the fingers crossed my crappy mini stick welder and these 312-16 rods will work good enough to stick this thing together. Wish I'd have had this done just a couple days sooner - got really cold last night!


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## acammer (Mar 2, 2016)

OhioBurner© said:


> Done with the drilling, my rigged up dispenser with some rv antifreeze I have laying around worked really well to keep things cool cutting all those holes. Now just to keep the fingers crossed my crappy mini stick welder and these 312-16 rods will work good enough to stick this thing together. Wish I'd have had this done just a couple days sooner - got really cold last night!



Pictures please


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## OhioBurner© (Mar 3, 2016)

acammer said:


> Pictures please


Sure! But as I've alluded to my work is not pro by any means, I'm a self taught welder (aside from our required HS shop class) with a $80 harbor freight special lol. So I post these pics not to impress but more so as proof I did it I guess you could say.  

I finished it up this morning, cleaned it up for a quick photo shoot and then fired the stove up. Been running now for 30+ minutes so far so good. I was in a hurry to get it running so I skipped cleaning the door so no pics of it in operation yet  but maybe I'll shut it down this evening to inspect, and clean the stove up. This side of the house has been in the 50's lately so it's nice to get some heat back in here. My house layout just isn't good for heating from a single stove where my wood stove currently is.





I test fit the main body before welding on the flange pieces. Unfortunately I made it just a smidgen to wide front-to-back and it wouldn't seat properly. But my welds were pretty globy so I ground down the front and back so all the welds were flush. That allowed it to fit in tightly, but it did fit. If I were to do it again I'd pay more attention to the front-to-back dimensions. There is plenty of wiggle room side-side.




Pot is done. I used the same thickness for the flange all the way around so I didn't have to get another size of flat bar. The factory one was wider on the edges, but I didn't see the harm in making it all the wider piece all the way around. I'll pay attention to the ash pile and see how well this is sealing. If not, I'll just put some scrap flat gasket underneath.


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## acammer (Mar 3, 2016)

OhioBurner© said:


> Sure! But as I've alluded to my work is not pro by any means, I'm a self taught welder (aside from our required HS shop class) with a $80 harbor freight special lol. So I post these pics not to impress but more so as proof I did it I guess you could say.
> 
> I finished it up this morning, cleaned it up for a quick photo shoot and then fired the stove up. Been running now for 30+ minutes so far so good. I was in a hurry to get it running so I skipped cleaning the door so no pics of it in operation yet  but maybe I'll shut it down this evening to inspect, and clean the stove up. This side of the house has been in the 50's lately so it's nice to get some heat back in here. My house layout just isn't good for heating from a single stove where my wood stove currently is.
> 
> ...



Nice.  Looks fine to me, aesthetics are not real important with a burn pot.  Some day I gotta do my own - probably will happen once the current one gets bad enough to quit using.  Crank it up and run her hard!


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## mchasal (Mar 4, 2016)

OhioBurner© said:


> If I were to do it again I'd pay more attention to the front-to-back dimensions.



What do you mean "if"?!?! Aren't you taking orders? 

Seriously though, nice job. Looks great and hopefully it will be more durable. I'm only half kidding about the above comment. If yours turns out to hold up well, I bet you could sell a few here, though not sure it would be worth your time.

This particular issue and thread has changed my opinion of Englander. One of the main factors that led me to them was the great support here from Mike. The lack of any comment here is disheartening. I could understand and forgive if there was a batch of substandard steel or something, but the silence is disappointing.


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## acammer (Mar 4, 2016)

mchasal said:


> What do you mean "if"?!?! Aren't you taking orders?
> 
> Seriously though, nice job. Looks great and hopefully it will be more durable. I'm only half kidding about the above comment. If yours turns out to hold up well, I bet you could sell a few here, though not sure it would be worth your time.
> 
> This particular issue and thread has changed my opinion of Englander. One of the main factors that led me to them was the great support here from Mike. The lack of any comment here is disheartening. I could understand and forgive if there was a batch of substandard steel or something, but the silence is disappointing.



I'm in that exact same position.  I heard so many good things about Englander and Mike in particular that I really had high hopes that this would be handled differently.  I've asked for his comments several times in this thread, and have never gotten a post back, or even a private message.  I flat out told Mike I want to be an advocate for their local, American employing company - but I need a little help being able to say it.  Nothing.  

I really do want to say nice things about my Englander and it's manufacturer, but at this point I cannot recommend them and their products.  4 failed burn-pots in 1 season is ludicrous - if the lemon law applied to stoves I could legally make them buy it back!  It's garbage metal, just own up to it!  I'm sure I represent a user on the extreme edge of the envelope running my stove wide open 24/7 - but it's "supposed" to be able to do that.  I don't know what I'll replace it with when it has a significant failure, but it won't be another Englander.  Some attention, an explanation, and a solution would (read - the door is still open!) completely change that, but it's not been the case and I don't expect that to change at this point.


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## sportbikerider78 (Mar 4, 2016)

OhioBurner© said:


> Sure! But as I've alluded to my work is not pro by any means, I'm a self taught welder (aside from our required HS shop class) with a $80 harbor freight special lol. So I post these pics not to impress but more so as proof I did it I guess you could say.
> 
> I finished it up this morning, cleaned it up for a quick photo shoot and then fired the stove up. Been running now for 30+ minutes so far so good. I was in a hurry to get it running so I skipped cleaning the door so no pics of it in operation yet  but maybe I'll shut it down this evening to inspect, and clean the stove up. This side of the house has been in the 50's lately so it's nice to get some heat back in here. My house layout just isn't good for heating from a single stove where my wood stove currently is.
> 
> ...


Please be careful welding stainless.  It can be very toxic to breathe in.  Chromium and nickel can really (*&^*&^*&^ you up.  

Nice job.  If it works, its perfect.


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## OhioBurner© (Mar 5, 2016)

mchasal said:


> What do you mean "if"?!?! Aren't you taking orders?
> 
> Seriously though, nice job. Looks great and hopefully it will be more durable. I'm only half kidding about the above comment. If yours turns out to hold up well, I bet you could sell a few here, though not sure it would be worth your time.
> 
> This particular issue and thread has changed my opinion of Englander. One of the main factors that led me to them was the great support here from Mike. The lack of any comment here is disheartening. I could understand and forgive if there was a batch of substandard steel or something, but the silence is disappointing.



Thanks, and so far it's working well except for one thing. The flange on one side which did angle upward slightly after welding is allowing some air to bypass. That area on the cradle is void of any ash accumulation. Not much different than one of my factory burn pots which also slightly warped and allowed air to bypass. Visibly, in a bit over a days time it looks like its burning fine, but I may place a gasket underneath to seal the small air leak like I did with the factory pot. I just kept the scrap flat gasket from the ash pan when I had to put a thicker gasket on, so I have some scrap laying around still.

Surprisingly it was cheaper than a factory pot to make, even buying new drill bits, wire brushes, and a pack of welding rods a lot more than I needed for just 1. Not counting my time of course, but for my own use I don't count that anyhow. I wouldn't be entirely opposed to making another, but until middle of April I am extremely busy anyhow so any chance of making another probably wouldn't be for a little while. I'd want to get a but more long term use out of it too to make sure it'll work well. If this is the main problem with your stove, I don't mind trying to help out. They are a budget stove that still heats well, aside from some other issues that are discussion for a different time. FWIW Englander did say that could give me a bit of a discount on a new burnpot but only if I called in (I was talking via email). I confirmed that a new burn pot came with 0 warranty, so regardless of discount they can keep their junk metal no warranty items and I'll keep a few bucks too!  Maybe it's even possible why Mike hasn't responded is because they are well aware of the issue with no resolution except to continually replace pots (a bit of a money making scheme eh?). Factory assembled I doubt they have much more than $10-15 in their pots.



I found it hard to really photo the stove in use without it just being a big glob of white/yellow. Tried shorter and longer exposures, etc. But I found the long exposures produced some cool fireworks when the pellets dropped in! Those photos were taken at heat of just 1 or 2. Ever since I warmed that side of the house back up I mainly just run it low since I have 2 stoves going.

I used 304 stainless which I know isn't the highest grade of SS but hopefully good enough for a long time or even life of the stove. I'd imagine it will outlast the rest of the stove. I couldn't get a small quantity of 308 electrodes so I stumbled into 312-16 stainless alloy electrodes which seemed to be used for all grades of steel and they actually welded pretty good with my crappy welder. The pot itself I was able to make with 3 sizes of flat bar...
3/4" x 3/16 for the flange
2-1/2" x 1/8 for the side facing the chute
2" x 1/8 for all other pieces (double stacked for the tall side)

I might still be looking to replace the pellet stove with a long burning woodstove, but for now at least it is up and running and if I sell it I feel much better that future users won't have to deal with the burn pot fiasco.


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## sportbikerider78 (Mar 7, 2016)

If you want to do more than a few pots, make up a prototype of the plates (or a drawing) and take it to your local waterjet house.  They could cut stainless plates all day long for you for very cheap.  There is no reason to drill those holes, as the tolerances can be (.10-20") and still look/work great.

Odds are they can get the materials cheaper than you as well.


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## OhioBurner© (Mar 7, 2016)

sportbikerider78 said:


> If you want to do more than a few pots, make up a prototype of the plates (or a drawing) and take it to your local waterjet house.  They could cut stainless plates all day long for you for very cheap.  There is no reason to drill those holes, as the tolerances can be (.10-20") and still look/work great.
> 
> Odds are they can get the materials cheaper than you as well.


Yes, if one were to mass manufacture I am sure there is more than one way to do this, and more efficiently than I did. However for me to just make one was very inexpensive. I have no 'local waterjet house' and even if they could get cheaper metal the difference in cost would probably be less than the cost of me driving to them. I spent less than $20 on metal and it was all cut to size aside from the flange piece that I was going too cut myself after I measured the assembled box. I did call the couple closest machine shops I could find that weren't more than a few towns away, and there 'minimum charge' was a lot more than I wanted to spend, at least for one!


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## OhioBurner© (Mar 8, 2016)

A day and half of the pot sitting on gasket to fix the little bit of air leak. Looks like that did the trick, nice even ash pile now. Seems to be burning pretty well.


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## acammer (Dec 13, 2017)

OhioBurner© said:


> View attachment 176396
> 
> 
> A day and half of the pot sitting on gasket to fix the little bit of air leak. Looks like that did the trick, nice even ash pile now. Seems to be burning pretty well.



So - how's she running this year?  Ready to make up another pot?  I'm probably a half ton into my season - I'm back on the pellets for primary heat with the cost of propane coming back up.  I fried right through the front wall on my best burn pot, and so now I'm running my second best pot.  It's working ok, but as we all know, it's only a matter of time before she's roasted, especially once it gets cold and I really crank on the stove.

Seriously - I'd pay for a good stainless pot, if you're at all interested.


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## OhioBurner© (Dec 13, 2017)

The stainless burnpot is holding up just great! Its filthy looking and discolored but no signs of any scaling or warping or anything. On its third season though that first season was pretty brief since it was already about spring when I made it. Already got a ton and a half burned - no propane this year and I haven't fired up the woodstove yet. Stove on the other hand isnt doing as well as last year, but might just be the oak. I disconnected it earlier when I had a home appraisal, since its ugly, goes across a room and through a boarded up looking window. I was lazy and figured I'd see how it did without the OAK. Well I don't even know if its that or not but my major cleaning intervals are much shorter it seems, already used the leaf blower and deep clean 3 times. PITA. Next chance I get, hopefully within a week or so, going to try and hook the OAK back up. It burned much better last season, and the OAK is the only obvious difference. But I did leave it dirty all summer and was pretty caked on. Not sure if crud built up too much in inaccessible regions, hope its just the difference of OAK.

Sorry bud... I'm not sure if I really have the time right now for fabricating stuff. I've got a couple big projects going on right now renovating the old side of my house all DIY plus my subaru is needing struts, exhaust work, and more importantly new rack and pinion. My plow tractor is also down right now. Not to mention Christmas and a long list of normal stuff lol. I don't have any more stainless, I only bought about exactly what I needed.


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## acammer (Dec 14, 2017)

OhioBurner© said:


> The stainless burnpot is holding up just great! Its filthy looking and discolored but no signs of any scaling or warping or anything. On its third season though that first season was pretty brief since it was already about spring when I made it. Already got a ton and a half burned - no propane this year and I haven't fired up the woodstove yet. Stove on the other hand isnt doing as well as last year, but might just be the oak. I disconnected it earlier when I had a home appraisal, since its ugly, goes across a room and through a boarded up looking window. I was lazy and figured I'd see how it did without the OAK. Well I don't even know if its that or not but my major cleaning intervals are much shorter it seems, already used the leaf blower and deep clean 3 times. PITA. Next chance I get, hopefully within a week or so, going to try and hook the OAK back up. It burned much better last season, and the OAK is the only obvious difference. But I did leave it dirty all summer and was pretty caked on. Not sure if crud built up too much in inaccessible regions, hope its just the difference of OAK.
> 
> Sorry bud... I'm not sure if I really have the time right now for fabricating stuff. I've got a couple big projects going on right now renovating the old side of my house all DIY plus my subaru is needing struts, exhaust work, and more importantly new rack and pinion. My plow tractor is also down right now. Not to mention Christmas and a long list of normal stuff lol. I don't have any more stainless, I only bought about exactly what I needed.



No worries at all - I figured it was a long shot.

With respect to the OAK - crack a window and see if the burn cleans up.  If the house is sealed tight enough that it's struggling to pull in enough air (unlikely) then you might be able to appreciate a change when you kill the vacuum.  If it does, then you know A. you have a really nicely sealed up home and B. that you need your OAK hooked up!

I'm doing my deep clean still about once a ton, so 5-6wks.  That consists of removing the cleanout ports ( why didn't they make those just drop in, instead of those miserable little machine screws), banging on the inside of the stove with a wooden hammer, pulling out as much as I can, and sucking it all up.  Honestly - I never clean my vent piping anymore - I only have about 24" of horizontal run and 30" of vertical run, and that stays real clean on its own.

I did learn my lesson about leaving the vent and oak open to atmosphere on a prior season, the stove get pretty rusty inside.  This year, I taped off those vent and OAK, and kept the door open all season.  Much better.


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## OhioBurner© (Dec 14, 2017)

Oh this house is super leaky, one reason I always figured the OAK wasn't really needed as the wind blows in regardless lol! It takes a couple weeks for it to start getting plugged up and my house has been in the 50's and low 60s lately so leaving a window open for a couple weeks isnt on my list  Oh but thanks for reminding me about the hammer - I have been forgetting to do that this year. I wish I had a interior diagram of what it looks like behind the stove back, I have no idea how the exhaust gases meander through and get to the exhaust port. I think I could better clean it if I new what all those channels looked like. There was a year (or two?) where I did not use the leaf blower nor had a small hose on the vac or long flexy brush and just got what I could get out by banging and vacuum at the clean out ports. One time I tried probing back in there after cleaning it, and found there was a ton of ash just sitting on the bottom in several inches from the right hand clean out port. There was a lot there, like 2-3 inches deep and all the across. It was pretty loose, but the shop vac in the cleanout wasn't getting it. Now I use a combo of the leaf blower on the exhaust, a small tube attached to the ash vac, and also a long handled flexy brush cut down to fit into those channels back there. It's kind of a process. And my exhaust goes up a chimney, 3 90's, 2-3 foot horizontal and 15 ish foot vertical. I wish this thing was a simpler install.


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