# Pilot light keeps burning out?? Need help!!!



## torquen (Nov 25, 2013)

Hello all, I bought a Majestic FS42rp last year used.  The last couple of months I took everything apart and converted it from propane to natural gas.  I got the kit straight from Vermont castings.  I had to replace 3 burner jets, the pilot jet, and a few parts in the regulator.  Everything is working great! nice clean burn, pilot light is burning nice and the pattern of the pilot light is even and touching the thermo sensors.

When I install the first sealed glass door the pilot light remains lit and will run just fine.  But as soon as I turn on the burners the pilot light will start to fade away and the flame is not contacting the thermo sensor anymore.  Eventually the sensor cools down and shuts the regulator down and all burners and pilot will go out.  The only takes a matter or 30 seconds to 2 mins.  If I have the glass door off then the pilot light stays strong and will run for hours.

Out of things to try, I started backing a brass slotted screw out of the regulator. Located on the lower left side if you are facing the regulator.  I was able to get the pilot flame to stay lit by doing this for a couple of days.  But this morning the same thing started to happen again.  To me it looks like its running out of air to burn once the main burners are turned on.

If anyone has any experience at solving this issue I would love to hear it.  All of my intake holes "3" are clear and clean.  I just installed the stove and ran all new type B exhaust pipe.  It ran for several hours last night but cant seem to get the pilot light to stay lit on the side where the thermo sensor is.

Thanks,
Garrett


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## altmartion (Nov 25, 2013)

what is the manifold pressure?


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## torquen (Nov 25, 2013)

I could not tell you.  I am sure I have a gauge to read it, where would I test and what range am I looking for? I believe the regulator was a sit.


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## altmartion (Nov 25, 2013)

there might be a port on the in and out of the gas valve. you need to be able to read inches in water colom


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## altmartion (Nov 25, 2013)

does it have an oxygen sensor?


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## torquen (Nov 25, 2013)

There is a "in" and "out" on the front of the regulator. Two brass screws.  If I open them up at all I can smell gas.


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## torquen (Nov 25, 2013)

The pilot light has a small hood. It throws off 4 different flames. Two of the flames go to the small metal ramps that bring the gas from the burners to the flames. The third flame is on what looks like a 1/4" rod with a wire coming out of the bottom.  My guess is some kind of thermo sensor.  The fourth flame is going to the thermo sensor that shuts off the regulator if the temp does not stay high enough.  This fourth flame starts to get very light and will eventually disapear once I start to turn up my burners.  Once it disapears then the sensor is not getting a direct pilot flame and will shut down the regulator.  If I have the glass door open the pilot flame will stay strong.


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## altmartion (Nov 25, 2013)

torquen said:


> The pilot light has a small hood. It throws off 4 different flames. Two of the flames go to the small metal ramps that bring the gas from the burners to the flames. The third flame is on what looks like a 1/4" rod with a wire coming out of the bottom.  My guess is some kind of thermo sensor.  The fourth flame is going to the thermo sensor that shuts off the regulator if the temp does not stay high enough.  This fourth flame starts to get very light and will eventually disapear once I start to turn up my burners.  Once it disapears then the sensor is not getting a direct pilot flame and will shut down the regulator.  If I have the glass door open the pilot flame will stay strong.


are you sure the vent is not plugged?


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## torquen (Nov 25, 2013)

It's all 100% brand new pipe. Installed unit just a few days ago. Before installing I was having this problem in my garage without any exhaust vent pipe hooked up. When I turned out the brass screw on the left side of the regulator it seemed to go away. I installed the unit in my house and it worked great all day without any problems. This morning I went to run it and the unit is shutting off again once I turn on the burners for a bit.


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## altmartion (Nov 25, 2013)

it is hard without having gas pressure. it is either lacking air or gas  if the flames fade out like that.


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## torquen (Nov 25, 2013)

Here is the setup. Pretty straight forward. You can see in the picture the burners are working fine.  This was last night.  How would I get more Air into the unit if all the inlets are open and clean?
Its fed off a 1" line reduced down to 3/4" for about 6 feet. Then and 90 deg and down to 1/2" for about 8".

Ill try and see what I can find for manifold pressure.  The regulator is a SIT 820MV.


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## altmartion (Nov 25, 2013)

the problem is, to properly convert a unit you need proper tools and knowledge. it is not your fault. they should not sell this type of stuff to un qualified people. I am not trying to offend you. this is the stuff that happens. even if it is nothing to do with the conversion you did, we have to fix it first.


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## Fake coal burner (Nov 25, 2013)

Sit gas 820 mv. Go to this link you tube it will show you how to test valve pressure and mv volts. If you don't have a  manometer you can make one for about $2 . Get back to me and I will show you how. Its accurate I checked my homade one against  the expensive ones.
Link


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## DAKSY (Nov 25, 2013)

What kind of unit is this? Is it a Direct Vent? If it is, sure looks like you have B-Vent & if you do, it's the wrong venting...


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## torquen (Nov 25, 2013)

Fake coal burner, I am very interested in the home made meter. I also watched the video and that seems very easy.  But what if the pressures are off? Is there a way to adjust the pressure?

Daksy, the stove is a Majestic FS42RP. Converted to Natural Gas.  Conversion Kit was sent to me by Vermont Castings as well as a manual and all the jets were the proper size via the manual.

The stove is a B Vent stove.. Not direct vent.

I feel like its running out of air.  The pilot light will be very strong, then once I turn the burners up just a tad then the pilot light starts to get very faint and moving around and searching. Then eventually the flame on that side "1 of 4" coming out of the hood goes out.  Once the Thermo Coupling cools the safety kicks in and shuts down the system.

The back of my stove has three "about 3.5" diameter holes.  All three holes are perfectly clear.  I can look right through my glass and see through them to the back side.  I had the entire stove apart and cleaned everything.  With the front glass piece off the stove will run all day long with zero issues and a nice strong pilot.

My back burner is a bigger orfice and puts quite a bit bigger flame out.  The middle and front burner use the same size orfice and are much smaller.  The front and mid flames are very very blue and almost clear at times.  I have all the flame adjusting plates fully open next to the orfice.  Should I try to slide these plates closed some and see if that helps?  Only other thing I can think of is blocking one of the intake holes and seeing if that does anything.


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## altmartion (Nov 25, 2013)

you need to find out what is stopping the intake air. how is this thing allowed to use combustion air from a living space?


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## DAKSY (Nov 25, 2013)

altmartion said:


> you need to find out what is stopping the intake air. how is this thing allowed to use combustion air from a living space?


 
B-vents are natural draft appliances. They pull the combustion air into the firebox from the room they're installed in. There must be a blockage somewhere...
Or, now that I think about it, there may be another safety check in the system...Are there any wires coming off the gas valve & disappearing up into the stove body? Some of the VC B-Vents had a snap disk up at the top of the firebox. If the sheathing dry rotted off those wires, they'd short out & kill the burner. I can't remember if it was a quick kill or not. Doesn't sound like that's what's happening here, but I'd take a look...


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## altmartion (Nov 25, 2013)

DAKSY said:


> B-vents are natural draft appliances. They pull the combustion air into the firebox from the room they're installed in. There must be a blockage somewhere...
> Or, now that I think about it, there may be another safety check in the system...Are there any wires coming off the gas valve & disappearing up into the stove body? Some of the VC B-Vents had a snap disk up at the top of the firebox. If the sheathing dry rotted off those wires, they'd short out & kill the burner. I can't remember if it was a quick kill or not. Doesn't sound like that's what's happening here, but I'd take a look...


I am just confused how this, being a gas appliance, is allowed to draw combustion air from a living space?  code here say's no. and must be tagged.


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## torquen (Nov 25, 2013)

I'm not sure what you mean by how its allowed to use compustion air from a living space? But basically its a steel box with the burners inside.  The box has 3x3.5" holes in the back of the box behind the rear burner.  This is the intake air.  My house is 1900 square feet, so i'm not running out of combustable air in 30 seconds..  There are no screens on these intake holes. I could put a tennis ball right through them if I had to.

I talked to a hearth shop about 1.5 hrs from me.  The guy suggested I build a small box around the pilot flame unit.  He said the B vent units tend to suck in a lot of air and cause a turbulance within the stove causing the pilot lite to loose a finger or two of flame.


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## altmartion (Nov 25, 2013)

torquen said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by how its allowed to use compustion air from a living space? But basically its a steel box with the burners inside.  The box has 3x3.5" holes in the back of the box behind the rear burner.  This is the intake air.  My house is 1900 square feet, so i'm not running out of combustable air in 30 seconds..  There are no screens on these intake holes. I could put a tennis ball right through them if I had to.
> 
> I talked to a hearth shop about 1.5 hrs from me.  The guy suggested I build a small box around the pilot flame unit.  He said the B vent units tend to suck in a lot of air and cause a turbulance within the stove causing the pilot lite to loose a finger or two of flame.


yea but will it snuff out the main burners too? if you crack the door or let more air in will it stay running?


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## DAKSY (Nov 25, 2013)

B-Vent units are legal in NY State, but your local building codes may supersede the NYS codes.These types of fireplaces/stoves do not have a sealed combustion chamber and rely on the buoyancy of hot gases to vent effectively. They must be installed either with an existing chimney that meets the local building code standards or they can be installed using a B vent which is a vent pipe that must be installed to the same parameters of a masonry chimney but can be enclosed in combustible material. They draw air (oxygen) necessary for combustion from the area surrounding the fireplace. The combustion by-products or flue gases are hot and naturally rise up through the chimney which provides a route for these hot gases to escape from the house. As the fireplace continues to vent these flue gases up the chimney, the walls of the chimney heat up, which allows the flue gases to retain more of their temperature and buoyancy thereby increasing the speed with which they exit the chimney.


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## torquen (Nov 25, 2013)

Daksy, the only wire going up that I can see is to the top sensor on the outside of the firebox.  This is controling when my fan turns on once the temp comes up.  I can crack my front glass piece about 3" on the bottom and the pilot light will stay strong and keep the flame on the thermo coupler.  Once I start closing the glass the flame starts to flicker and then it goes out.  The other 3 flames coming out of the pilot light dont seem to get affected nearly as much.  But once the flame stops touching the thermo coupler the safety kicks in after about 30 seconds and kills the entire system...  If I could transfer the heat from one of the burners down to the thermo coupler the thing would stay lit and burn perfectly. LOL.


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## altmartion (Nov 25, 2013)

DAKSY said:


> B-Vent units are legal in NY State, but your local building codes may supersede the NYS codes.These types of fireplaces/stoves do not have a sealed combustion chamber and rely on the buoyancy of hot gases to vent effectively. They must be installed either with an existing chimney that meets the local building code standards or they can be installed using a B vent which is a vent pipe that must be installed to the same parameters of a masonry chimney but can be enclosed in combustible material. They draw air (oxygen) necessary for combustion from the area surrounding the fireplace. The combustion by-products or flue gases are hot and naturally rise up through the chimney which provides a route for these hot gases to escape from the house. As the fireplace continues to vent these flue gases up the chimney, the walls of the chimney heat up, which allows the flue gases to retain more of their temperature and buoyancy thereby increasing the speed with which they exit the chimney.


sorry I must have gotten my threads mixed up. I thought this was in a bedroom.


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## torquen (Nov 25, 2013)

No the main burners do not snuff out.  They stay perfectly lit and strong till the regulator safety kicks in.  I can hear the regulator click when it shuts the gas off. 

I'm wondering if I were to get one size bigger pilot jet if that might solve the problem?


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## altmartion (Nov 25, 2013)

can you run a temporary pipe to the combustion chamber for air? then keep the door closed?


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## altmartion (Nov 25, 2013)

torquen said:


> No the main burners do not snuff out.  They stay perfectly lit and strong till the regulator safety kicks in.  I can hear the regulator click when it shuts the gas off.
> 
> I'm wondering if I were to get one size bigger pilot jet if that might solve the problem?


I don't think that will solve the problem, only a band aid.


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## torquen (Nov 25, 2013)

It has to be with the regulator needing some type of adjustment or the pilot light orfice needing to be just a touch bigger.  When I bought it the stove was setup for propane and ran perfectly fine. 

I'm not sure I can run any type of pipe into the intakes now.  I have it installed back in the corner and the metal shroud is installed "cant directly get to the holes when the shroud is on"..


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## altmartion (Nov 25, 2013)

torquen said:


> It has to be with the regulator needing some type of adjustment or the pilot light orfice needing to be just a touch bigger.  When I bought it the stove was setup for propane and ran perfectly fine.
> 
> I'm not sure I can run any type of pipe into the intakes now.  I have it installed back in the corner and the metal shroud is installed "cant directly get to the holes when the shroud is on"..


i don't understand why it runs fine with the glass opened. that would normally mean you are lacking air.  are you sure all gas cocks are fully opened? really need to have a monometer on the manifold side as id goes out. then you no if it is a gas issue.


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## Fake coal burner (Nov 26, 2013)

torquen said:


> No the main burners do not snuff out.  They stay perfectly lit and strong till the regulator safety kicks in.  I can hear the regulator click when it shuts the gas off.
> 
> I'm wondering if I were to get one size bigger pilot jet if that might solve the problem?


 
Check your in box see if you got the privite message from me Top of page.. Did you check the roll out switch on B vent it could be bad or the wiring. kicking stove off.


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## torquen (Nov 26, 2013)

Sent a message back with email addy.

I'm not sure what the roll out switch on b vent is?


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## coaly (Nov 27, 2013)

Sounds like it has too much air flow through it, or something is missing;

Since it works fine with glass off, sounds like the chimney draw is causing the incoming air to move the pilot flame off the thermocouple. (atmospheric air pressure rushes into the air intake holes into burner chamber to replace the lighter exhausted gasses that rise out the vent) Seems like too much turbulence around pilot assembly, like too much vent height causing too much draft. If the pilot flame is normal under low fire conditions, this would validate my point. Less flow out exhaust, less draft, less incoming air. Installation instructions would probably have given the max and minimum venting requirements. Vent height could be exceeded, or perhaps there should be a baffle plate under or next to the pilot, like a protective shield to prevent the unwanted turbulence. Sometimes there is a stainless shield protecting pilot flame. Some units have a small baffle in the exhaust to slow it down. Sometimes as simple as a little metal tang that sticks in the exhaust outlet that changes the air flow through the burner chamber.
  I believe Fake coal burner is referring to an air spillage switch which is normally installed in the exhaust air diverter. It's a high limit temp switch that gets hot if there is not enough draft causing exhaust to back up and spill out diverter intake. This is wired through the thermocouple wiring to gas valve designed to shut the unit down when less draft than required is sensed. (temp switch senses spilled exhaust into room)


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## Heatsource (Nov 27, 2013)

Have you bypassed the spill switch to eliminate it from the possible problems?


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## torquen (Nov 27, 2013)

I'm going to try and build a shield around the pilot area today, but I am interested in bypassing the spill switch as well. Not quite sure where this is located.


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## Heatsource (Nov 27, 2013)

Not sure on your model, but it is typically located near the top of the firebox, under the flue pipe connection. (flue hood)

also, you can find it by following the 2 wires that interrupt the t-pile or t-couple


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## torquen (Nov 27, 2013)

Ok, between working my 48 hr shift "firefighter" and doing a little pheasant hunting today, I was able to work on my stove. 

I took some of the inner lining out of a old section of B vent. I tried making a few different pieces of deflector places without luck. Pilot light was still ghosting. 

Finially I measured out cross way left to right and the hight I needed to clear the pilot assembly as well as the thermo couplers. It ended up looking like half a box but compleatly open. With all the logs taken out I fired it up and adjusted the pilot light so the flame length was just past the thermo coupler. Installed the front glass and fired it up. 

I could not believe it but the pilot flame stayed lit and is not moving around at all!! I placed all the logs back in and fired it up again. I've had the stove running for the last hour and it's working perfect. 

So it must have been a turbulence issue. 

I want to thank everyone in this thread for your time and suggestions. I used them all today. 

Thanks again and hope everyone enjoys a nice "warm" Thanksgiving 
Garrett


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## xtrordinair (Nov 27, 2013)

it sounds like a excessive draft issue check your manual for restrictor settings


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## coaly (Nov 28, 2013)

xtrordinair said:


> it sounds like a excessive draft issue check your manual for restrictor settings



Sure does !  Glad a protector of sorts cures the airflow issue around the pilot to rule out mechanical or electrical problems. I'm sure you would like to leave it alone since it works, but........if it has too much draft it will be killing the efficiency allowing a lot more heat than necessary up the vent. They already eat enough gas ! I don't know if this unit has a restrictor plate or adjustment for draft, but that would be the cure. That's the small baffle piece, or maybe called a damper I thought might be missing. Manufacturers call them different things.
  You mentioned it ran perfectly fine when it was set up for LP. Was this at another location or was it connected to the same exhaust vent? Same termination cap?
 If you slow the draft down too much, the spillage switch is going to heat up and shut the burner and pilot down on safety. *So the draft has to be just right.* That would be great if it's adjustable.
   When you mentioned it was shutting down in your garage with no exhaust vent, it wouldn't have a draft to allow hot exhaust up the vent hole and the disc switch (spillage) should shut it down when it heated up.
   Here's what happens when there is too much vent restriction, or poor draft usually from not enough chimney height. (another section of B-vent is added to cure) When the main burner lights, there is little to no draft in the cold chimney and the heat doesn't go up the exhaust quick enough to start drafting. Some of this exhaust and heat spills out the air intake of the exhaust diverter, and trips the spillage switch *before* the chimney gets drafting. In that case the main burner will only stay lit long enough to trip the switch. Some switches have a reset button on them, others are auto reset. So if you do something to slow the flow too much, that is what will happen. When you can get to the back easily, it's simple to light the main burner, and shake a match out and hold the smoking match up to the diverter intake to make sure it's pulling air in. If the smoke lingers at the intake, it's not drafting. Exhaust fans in the house and other factors can cause poor draft or back draft. The spillage switch is there to stop exhaust from entering the room.


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## torquen (Nov 28, 2013)

I just checked over the whole unit. I can not find any type of adjustments anywhere. 

The bvent is to hot to touch on the pipeing inside the house but on the outside it's just warm. 

The box at the top of my firebox is about 26" wide but only has a 1/2" slit for the heat to travel through. No way to open or close this slit.  

On the outside I have the Amerivent 4" pipe cap. I can see the thermal waves coming out but not sure if it's to much or not. 

Is there anyway I can close down my pipe on the outside? Try to reduce the flow? I see they make reducers.  I could possibly reduce the size down to a 3" exit. 

If I do any of this I am going to grab some air monitors from work and see if I am inducing any bad juju into my house.


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## coaly (Nov 28, 2013)

I would make a deflector type baffle at the top where the exhaust enters the vent. As long as it has a working spillage switch in the air intake of the exhaust diverter (where it usually is) it will shut down when it senses exhaust backing up and spilling into the home. Check it with smoke from a match to be sure it's drafting and the smoke doesn't back into the house. You'll know right away.
 You should have a CO detector with it in operation anyway.


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## Fake coal burner (Dec 1, 2013)

What is the altitude your stove is running at? They have to be derated at smaller orifice size usually above 2,000 feet. Your stove will over fire and shut down. Also is the vent connections tight at the stove and not leaking air or other conections. What is the height of of the flue pipe?  you need to check the gas presure on the stove and the voltage mv. on the thermopile To Much fire could put out to many volts = shut down. Practicable elimination to find your problem. I have my pilot turn way down no problem on B vent Also do a Match flame test at the  at the diverter.for flue draw. Is the roll out switch the right temperature range for that nat. gas stove? Any shields added to back of stove blocking air flow or holding heat to stove roll out switch?  How tight is the house ? exhaust fan running?  Did you get the pictures I e-mailed you? To much draw flames will start to lift.
I have some files on other brands of B- vent stoves I can e-mail you with pictures and trouble shooting . if it will help you out they work on the same principle.


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