# Chain seems to dull very fast.



## jeffoc (Apr 19, 2011)

This weekend was cutting up a downed oak on my property and the chain was so dull after about 5 cuts that it started to smoke.

I am just starting to cut again after about 20 years and most of the cutting I use to do was pine before when I lived in MT. This tree was an oak as I said but I also have black walnut.
Here is what is what I am doing, maybe someone can point out what I am doing wrong. Picked up the saw after having the chain sharpened at the dealer, noticed right off the bat that if I try to go in in the middle of the blade it just won't really bite, have to basically cut with the tip. I was very careful not to touch the chain to the ground. But I did catch the edge of a knot as I went through, that did it for the chain. 

Is it just the nature of oak and the walnut that dull it so badly? I am spending a fortune having the blade sharpened on this thing.
It is a Stihl ms 290 with a 20" blade, the tree was about 28" where I was cutting.


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## PLAYS WITH FIRE (Apr 19, 2011)

I am certainly no expert but your chain seems dull and maybe your out of chain lube? I cut with a Pooplon(poulon) Pro with an 18" bar with no problem. I mean the saw is "slow" as I am used to my uncle's Jonsered which will cut the same log diameter in a little more than half the time. The Jonsered is super fast. 

However, when he had a dull chain the wood chips were just powder. Again I am no expert but he said crappy bar lube will dull the pi55 out of the chain and burn up the bar. So I would assume smoking is possible too.


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## jeffoc (Apr 19, 2011)

You may have something there PWF. My Poulan, shoots oil off the end of the bar like crazy, but with the Stihl I don't notice it. 
I'm going to have to pull the the cover off and look in there. I know I've had to fill it, but I don't remember if it needed any on the last fill. It may have clogged. 

Thanks!


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## Jags (Apr 19, 2011)

Sounds to me like the dealer smoked your chain.  Probably got it too hot during the sharpening and took the temper out of the teeth.  That makes for a junk chain.  It won't ever hold an edge again.  Replace the chain and see how it goes.  If the new chain works as advertised - find a new dealer to sharpen your chains (or better yet, learn how to sharpen them yourself).


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## jeffoc (Apr 19, 2011)

I bought some files and researched the methods for sharpening and have been "practicing" on the poulan and seem to do okay, but wanted to be sure it was sharp on the stihl. 
I am going to buy a new chain, just so I don't have to stop when it goes dull. As far as taking it somewhere else, this is the only place close by that does it, and they are still 20 miles away. But if they are ruining it I will go elsewhere. 
Thanks Jags


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## Jags (Apr 19, 2011)

A little practice on the teeth and learn how to file the rakers and you won't have to worry about taking them someplace so they can ruin it for ya.


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## jeffoc (Apr 19, 2011)

I'm doing okay on the teeth so far. I still don't get the rakers, do you use a flat file?


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## mayhem (Apr 19, 2011)

Agreed on the new chain.  Relatively inexpensive and its always good to have at least one or two spare chains.

To check the oiler, find )or make) a clean cut stump or even use a sheet of cardboard on the ground.  Fire up the saw and get it runnig, run it at or near wide open throttle with the tip andgled down towards the cardboard.  If the oiler is working properly you'll get a streak of oil across the cardboard pretty quickly.  If you don't see any oil streaks forming, you're not getting enough oil on the b&c and you're likely overheating the chain and dulling it.

I can tell you that oak os hard but not THAT hard that it'll dull your chain that quickly.  You should be able to cut till you run out of gas before you even have to think abot doing a quick filing to take the burrs off.  I cut a pickup truck of red oak per day at lunchtime three days a week for about a month last summer with my 18" Craftsman saw and only ran a quick one sweep with the file between each day.

Only other thing I can think of is the trees are drity, but you sound as though you've checked that already.


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## Jags (Apr 19, 2011)

jeffoc said:
			
		

> I'm doing okay on the teeth so far. I still don't get the rakers, do you use a flat file?



Yes, on the flat file.


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## jeffoc (Apr 19, 2011)

Mayhem,
Okay, it's my oiler then, I thought I should be able to see it coming out, and was watching for it after it started to smoke. 
I know that's really basic, I should have checked it when I first started. 
I'm going to get in there and clean it all out, and hope I haven't toasted the chain but I bet I have. 
Does anyone know a good link to chain sharpening?
Thanks everyone.


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## PLAYS WITH FIRE (Apr 19, 2011)

http://blueandwhitecrew.org/files/SharpAdvice061301final.pdf


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## jeffoc (Apr 19, 2011)

Thanks, Plays, this will help.


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## Danno77 (Apr 19, 2011)

also, make sure your chain is properly tightened. Not too tight and not too loose.


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## Adios Pantalones (Apr 19, 2011)

If by "down" tree, you mean one that was already dead- they can accumulate a lot of dirt in the bark, and if it's drier than a live tree- they are a lot harder.  I girdled some oaks, took them down a year later, and it was serious work keeping my chain sharp.  A 20" bar going through a 28" tree is another big factor.

The saw should go through almost a tank of bar oil per tank of gas.  You could have a smoked chain, but aside from that- you have a tough tree to buck with this saw anyway, IMO.


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## TreePointer (Apr 19, 2011)

Stihl Video Library - Chapter 3: Sharpening Your Saw Chain


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## Thistle (Apr 19, 2011)

Danno77 said:
			
		

> also, make sure your chain is properly tightened. Not too tight and not too loose.



Yup.Depending on what saw I'm using,I try to keep it so there's about 1/4" slack when I pull up with thumb & forefinger.Newish chains tend to stretch a wee bit after they're run a while.Every 3-4 sharpenings,depending on what I'm cutting,I hit the rakers 3 strokes lightly with a small flat file too.


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## jeffoc (Apr 19, 2011)

Thanks Danno,
The dealer had tightened the chain and I asked him about it when I picked it up because the nuts have been falling off as I cut. 
It was a little loose when I quit but not as bad as before. 

AP,
The tree fell during a ice storm about 2yrs ago. The wood is so pretty, and yes it is drier than a live tree. It was alive when it fell. It is hollow torwards the base. But solid where I am cutting right now. Never thought I would be attacking anything this big when I bought the saw. I'm up from the Poulan though!
I knock the bark off before I cut so I think I'm okay as far as dirt goes.


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## Jags (Apr 19, 2011)

If your nuts are falling off during cutting, you need to take more breaks.


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## jeffoc (Apr 19, 2011)

Jags said:
			
		

> If your nuts are falling off during cutting, you need to take more breaks.



Very true, lol


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## Adios Pantalones (Apr 19, 2011)

If the nuts are coming loose, then the chain will work loose as well.  A loose chain will cause the symptoms you mentioned about getting bite at the tip, but not on the flat of the bar.  The chain slips off the bar flat, but not as easily at the tip.


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## jeffoc (Apr 19, 2011)

When I started it had about 1/4" play, maybe a little less. The dealer made me think that "they all do that". So I probably should have been more concerned about it then I was and checked it more while I was cutting. But Geez, 5 or 6 cuts!

I will have to check out the video at home, I'm pretending to work now. Thanks for it though.


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## Thistle (Apr 19, 2011)

Jags said:
			
		

> If your nuts are falling off during cutting, you need to take more breaks.



Rules to live by.....


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## jeffoc (Apr 19, 2011)

Thistle said:
			
		

> Jags said:
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Love it!


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## smokinj (Apr 19, 2011)

jeffoc said:
			
		

> This weekend was cutting up a downed oak on my property and the chain was so dull after about 5 cuts that it started to smoke.
> 
> I am just starting to cut again after about 20 years and most of the cutting I use to do was pine before when I lived in MT. This tree was an oak as I said but I also have black walnut.
> Here is what is what I am doing, maybe someone can point out what I am doing wrong. Picked up the saw after having the chain sharpened at the dealer, noticed right off the bat that if I try to go in in the middle of the blade it just won't really bite, have to basically cut with the tip. I was very careful not to touch the chain to the ground. But I did catch the edge of a knot as I went through, that did it for the chain.
> ...



Thats more to get through an oak thats for sure. Sounds like the rakers are a little high aswell.


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## Jags (Apr 19, 2011)

smokinjay said:
			
		

> Thats more to get through an oak thats for sure. Sounds like the rakers are a little high aswell.



There ya go Jeff - get Jay on the hook for your questions.  He is a chain sharpening maniac.


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## jeffoc (Apr 19, 2011)

I'll get to the bottom of it this weekend. I bet it is the oiler got plugged somehow. Then I'll break out the files and go to work, including the rakers. 

Thanks for all the help everyone.


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## Jags (Apr 19, 2011)

Keep in mind that if the dealer did in fact smoke that chain, you are not gonna get very far with it.


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## jeffoc (Apr 19, 2011)

I'm thinking that I can probably improve it being that it is so dull right now and then see how long that lasts. 
I hate to give him another 10 bucks.

Something else that I thought of, If the rakers are to tall, will the flakes that come off when the blade is sharp, you know the nice big sawdust for lack of a better term, will they be smaller? 
I noticed that they seemed to be when I first started. 

I'm feeling like I missed a lot but in my defense I was only cutting for a short time before it was to dull to do anything.    :red:


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## Jags (Apr 19, 2011)

Raker height is the determining factor in how big of "bite" the teeth take.  Shorter raker, bigger bite.  As the teeth shorten from sharpening, the rakers have to be adjusted (filed) to maintain the "bite".  There are gauges designed for this (cheap too).


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## TreePointer (Apr 19, 2011)

Side issue:   If the bar & chain on your MS290 is .325" pitch, then it's likely it came with RMC3 (semi-chisel, low kickback) chain, which I think is one of the most disappointing chains that Stihl sells.  Try a loop of RSC chain (full chisel).


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## jeffoc (Apr 19, 2011)

I don't have it handy, but it is the chain that came with the saw, so my guess is yes it is that chain. 
I will definately get the new chain, I think I may get it online versus the dealer this time.
As far as the rakers go, that is what I noticed at the very beginning, the bite wasn't as big as it should be. 
I love to see those big chunks come off of there right after I get it sharpened!
Just never put it all together. Had all these passing thoughts, just not connecting. 
I just saw the gauge reading through the sharpening guide on the link, I'll get one of those too.


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## Intheswamp (Apr 19, 2011)

Jeff, there is a world of difference between the safety chains and the full chisels.  I'm a newb myself and just switched over to full chisel a couple of months ago.  One thing about the full chisel chains is that they don't have those extra bumps in there to help prevent kick-back.  I was more than a little bit concerned about kick-back with the non-safety chains.  The guys here on hearth.com encouraged me and explained some things to me...I was glad to have their help!  Study over the cutting procedure from the time you grab the pull cord till you flip the kill switch and sit the saw back down...think safety the whole time.  *Know* where your saw-tip is at all the time....hit the wood with the throttle wide open...and always know that the very next moment you *will* have kick-back!  The big thing is to BE PREPARED for it.  I've had a few instances of kick-back, pull-in, and push-back since I've been cutting...each time it makes me think about what I did to let it happen.  As for the performance of the full chisel....NICE. 

Be aware that if you knock the rakers down too much it can make the saw too "grabby" and make the saw more subject to reactive forces.

I think the guys have it figured out that the saw shop probably burnt your chain.  The chain on my ms260 is a Stihl RSC and to buck the pile of cemetery red oak (maybe 1.5 cords) that I just got through with I probably sharpened the chain four times...the next time I sharpen I'll be working on the rakers, too, being as the last cutting the chain just didn't have the cutting ability that it has had.  Big chips just make me feel good.  

One of the things that really helps when hand sharpening is to have the saw stabilized so that it doesn't wiggle while you sharpen...a vise is nice, either a stump vise in the field or a regular vise in the shop.  I will sit on the ground with my legs in front of me and brace the tip of the bar against my right boot if I'm doing the right cutters....left boot if doing the left ones.  Not as steady as a vise, but much more steady than nothing at all.  Also, don't try to sharpen a loose chain.

Best wishes,
Ed


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## jeffoc (Apr 19, 2011)

I like the idea of a full chisel chain. But kick back scares me. I'm a pretty careful guy and the times it has happened it scared the bejeebers out of me.

Ed, 

I would like to try a full chisel chain out just to see what it is like. After all the things I missed this weekend it makes me think that I need to pay more attention already.
I am lucky enough that all of the wood that I'm cutting right now is on my own acerage and within a mile of my house. So I can walk or drive to a picnic table, ice tea and tools. 
But I guess the right tools in the wrong hands can cause a lot of problems as well.


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## TreePointer (Apr 19, 2011)

Just for clarification, semi-chisel does not mean low kickback or safety chain.

RSC = chisel, regular chain (yellow)
RSC3 = chisel, low-kickback (green)

RMC = semi-chisel, regular chain (yellow)
RMC3 = semi-chisel, low-kickback (green)


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## Thistle (Apr 19, 2011)

What I prefer & have used for years -

Oregon 91VG044  .043 gauge 12" Low Profile
Oregon 72LPX070 .050 gauge - 20" Full Chisel
Oregon 72LPX084 .050 gauge - 24" Full Chisel
Oregon 72JGX084 .050 gauge -24" Full Chisel,Skip Tooth
Oregon 72LPX084 .050 gauge -24" Full Chisel,Skip Tooth,Ground at 15 degrees for Ripping Chain
Oregon 75JGX115 .063 gauge - 36" Full Chisel,Skip Tooth
Oregon 75JGX115 .063 gauge - 36" Full Chisel,Skip Tooth,Ground at 15 degrees for Ripping Chain


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## jeffoc (Apr 19, 2011)

Thanks treepointer and thistle,

I was just looking online and looking for a replacement, this is helpful. 
I may buy one chisel and just compare it with the other.


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## Thistle (Apr 19, 2011)

Pretty sure both Woodland Pro (made by Carlton) has comparable chains that have same features.Noticed a few anyway.They break it all down with their model numbers etc.


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## smokinj (Apr 19, 2011)

Jags said:
			
		

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Red Oak seems to be a lot less room for error on rakers. To low and it will vibe your elbows off. To high doesn't cut well. Most of these dealer see's a really crappy chain come in and think that half the job and the op will think its a great job. Would be ok unless hes going after a Big Red Oak with a little saw.


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## Intheswamp (Apr 19, 2011)

jeffoc said:
			
		

> I like the idea of a full chisel chain. But kick back scares me. I'm a pretty careful guy and the times it has happened it scared the bejeebers out of me.
> 
> Ed,
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> ...


You sound normal to me...everybody likes full/semi chisel chain and everybody is a bit scared of kick-back.  

The kick-back that I had wasn't too bad...I was moving slowly but wasn't watching as well as I should have been...got a fairly small bump out of it but it got me back on track for watching what I was doing!  I've had some pull in when trying to cut some smaller logs...basically rolling the log towards me...I should have had the dawgs more tightly up against the log.  

The hardest reactive force I've had, though, was bottom cutting a piece of that cemetery wood....it was push back.  I misread my tension/compression on that log and the log started to pinch the saw...it kicked back hard.  I pulled the saw on out of the kerf and didn't realize it until I started a top cut that the chain brake had tripped.  I stopped a minute to think about that one, too.

Keep your body out of the plane of the bar, have solid footing, watch the kick-back zone of the bar tip for obstacles, study logs for tension/compression, keep your left arm straight, hit the wood with full throttle.  If you're tired STOP.  Always think that kick-back is just an inch away.  Those are some things to keep in mind and I'm sure I probably forgot a bunch of other important stuff. 

If used correctly I would even think that chisel/semi-chisel is even safer than non-safety...you get the job done quicker so less time with a running saw and less tendency to put pressure on the bar to make it cut faster.  Just some newbie thoughts. 

Ed


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## jeffoc (Apr 19, 2011)

smokinjay said:
			
		

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Yep, that sounds like me. One guy in the place is really good and will take his time with my newb questions. But there is also a woman and another guy that don't take an extra second. 

They have a lot of brands that they sell, small engine place, so they do a lot of business. I give them a ton of business, right now I have my Stihl trimmer and Huskee tiller in getting service.


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## smokinj (Apr 19, 2011)

jeffoc said:
			
		

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Might always when taking a chain in to let them know to check the raker...(this is bs) But lets them know your watching them aswell. Should not have to do this but face it theres always someone looking to get out of work! They also could have been very close and there thinking we will get them next time. This would have been fine other than the big red oak dont think so...lol


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## jeffoc (Apr 19, 2011)

Might always when taking a chain in to let them know to check the raker...(this is bs) But lets them know your watching them aswell. Should not have to do this but face it theres always someone looking to get out of work! They also could have been very close and there thinking we will get them next time. This would have been fine other than the big red oak dont think so...lol[/quote]

Between that and getting the oiler fixed/cleaned, maybe one day I will get the giant tree out of the back yard! :lol: 
This will make the g/f very happy. 

Ed(intheswamp) is cemetary wood location or type? I keep good eye at the blade location, my biggest problem especially with the big down tree is I find myself in the plane of the blade.


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## smokinj (Apr 19, 2011)

jeffoc said:
			
		

> Might always when taking a chain in to let them know to check the raker...(this is bs) But lets them know your watching them aswell. Should not have to do this but face it theres always someone looking to get out of work! They also could have been very close and there thinking we will get them next time. This would have been fine other than the big red oak dont think so...lol



Between that and getting the oiler fixed/cleaned, maybe one day I will get the giant tree out of the back yard! :lol: 
This will make the g/f very happy. 

Ed(intheswamp) is cemetary wood location or type? I keep good eye at the blade location, my biggest problem especially with the big down tree is I find myself in the plane of the blade.[/quote]

You have pic's of this tree? wedges in every cut sounds like a must.


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## Intheswamp (Apr 19, 2011)

Jeff, the cemetery wood is where I scored some ancient red oak.  Mind you, the only part of this that I had was taking pictures and bucking the wood after some buddies had dropped it off in my backyard.  Check the pics out in this thread:

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/73887/

Yelp, keep yourself out of the plane of the bar.  It's hard to do as you cut downward...bending the knees and keeping the bar level...it's hard to do.  Have you got a cant hook to roll the log?  You could cut down 2/3's the way through the log for several rounds, then find a spot that you could saw all the way through....roll that section of log and then you only have to cut down 1/3 to finish the cuts.  It keeps the bar out of the dirt, too....just gotta be careful on that one cut to sever that portion of the log from the rest of it.  I'm not sure I explained that very well.  I couldn't live without my cant hook.

Jay's suggestion for wedges is a good one.

Ed


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## jeffoc (Apr 20, 2011)

Don't have a cant hook yet, was telling the g/f just the other day that we need to pick one up. Didn't know the name but now I will know what to ask for at the farm store.

I've been cutting down on either side as far as I can keeping the chain out of the dirt and then using the heck out of wedges and sledge, if it doesn't pop I'll take the axe and split it while it is still attached. 
Now that I'm getting into the hollow portion of the tree it is getting easier to split, I imagine it is drier than last year too. 
I thought about ripping it but with the equipment I have right now I don't think I can do that. 
Sorry no pics right now, I have some of when it fell, before I limbed it, I'll see if I can get those on this weekend if my computer skills can figure it out.


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## jeffoc (Apr 20, 2011)

Oh and the size of the tree now, a cant hook would only work on the rounds, this thing is BIG. there is no moving it without heavy equipment.


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## smokinj (Apr 20, 2011)

jeffoc said:
			
		

> Oh and the size of the tree now, a cant hook would only work on the rounds, this thing is BIG. there is no moving it without heavy equipment.



Its going to be real slow even with a perfect chain. 290 just not what you would want for that job, but take your time make sure there doing there job at the chain place and wedge every cut. 28 inch oak with a 290 is Moby Dick! Check your air filter often...


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## jeffoc (Apr 20, 2011)

I kind of think of it as whittling it away.  Keeps me out of trouble. If I had the bucks I would think about getting a bigger saw, but for hopefully just this tree I can't justify it. 
I'll get it done eventually. Then I'll have all that wood for when I finally get the insert bought and installed. I had planned on doing it during the spring but had to buy a new furnace instead.


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## Kenster (Apr 21, 2011)

I don't know about your particular saw but I think you should be needing to refill the oil at least every other gas fill up.  My Stihl 390 is just about perfectly measured.   Two gas fills and the oil tank is almost empty. I try to take a little break and touch up the chain at that time, too: every other fill up.  That way it never really gets dull on me.  
I was hesitant to sharpen my own chains but I kept reading about it.  The Stihl site is top notch for tutorials.  Lots of You tube videos also.  Just do it!


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