# Trying to plumb nyle therm DHW heat pump



## huffdawg (Apr 28, 2014)

I recently purchased two Nyle Therm dhw heat pumps from Tom in Maine.  One them will be no problem to plumb. the other not so..   The one I am having trouble with is a smart 40   if you look at this link it shows a pic of the piping configuration on it .   Has any one here plumbed a nyle to a smart 40..   Tom has suggested to plumb it to the boiler water side ,anyone on here have any alternative ideas that might work. 

http://www.triangletube.com/documents/2/SMART Literature.pdf

Huff


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## Fred61 (Apr 28, 2014)

I have a thought but that doesn't mean I'm right.
I don't understand why one couldn't connect to the inlet dip tube and return to the outlet. It's no different than the path a sidearm would follow if you were able to install one.


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## maple1 (Apr 28, 2014)

What Fred said. Any kind of add-on heater should just be able to be t'd in to the tank inlet & outlet - I think? That's what I did with my sidearm, what I did with the fphx I put in last week, and what I left 2 stubs for when I did that - to add on a HP if I get to that point.


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## huffdawg (Apr 28, 2014)

This is what Tom says what will happen if I tie into both the inlet and the outlet. He might have a good point.

 If you tie into the hot and cold connections on the tank, it will short circuit when you try to draw off the tank.
The tank will heat but the water flow when a tap is opened will go through the HP instead of the tank.


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## JMac23 (Apr 28, 2014)

A couple flow checks should be able to prevent that from happening.


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## MaineGuy (Apr 28, 2014)

Here's a picture of how I plumbed mine to my amtrol. The bottom connection is coming out from the heatpump and enters the amtrol outside of the cold water supply.  The top has a dip tube that I installed above the hot water outlet.  Not sure if it's proper but it's been heating the dhw for about a month now with no issues.

Sorry it looks like my photos seem to be upside down.


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## DZL_Damon (Apr 28, 2014)

JMac23 said:


> A couple flow checks should be able to prevent that from happening.


Not when the HWHP's circ pump kicks on. Trust me... been to that cold shower already!!


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## DZL_Damon (Apr 28, 2014)

huffdawg said:


> I recently purchased two Nyle Therm dhw heat pumps from Tom in Maine.  One them will be no problem to plumb. the other not so..   The one I am having trouble with is a smart 40   if you look at this link it shows a pic of the piping configuration on it .   Has any one here plumbed a nyle to a smart 40..   Tom has suggested to plumb it to the boiler water side ,anyone on here have any alternative ideas that might work.
> 
> http://www.triangletube.com/documents/2/SMART Literature.pdf
> 
> Huff


No problem, insert a 3/8" of refrigeration tubing down the outlet hot water pipe to the bottom. That will be the hp's discharge. You will have to sweat it THROUGH a tee. We did that on my buddies Amtrol since the inlet connections were all curved and wouldn't pass the pipe through. Works great.


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## tom in maine (Apr 29, 2014)

The issue is that if you tee into the DHW cold in and hot out, the tank will heat okay, but when you draw off hot water, the water flow tends to short circuit through the heat pump.
I cannot see check valves helping.
They might work on allowing proper draw through the tank but if they accomplish that, the heat pump circulator might not open them (it is small circulator that has some pressure drop to overcome with the heat exchanger inside the HP).
The Triangle tank does not show a drain or PR valve as an extra tap on the tank. If there was an additional tap, then it would be simple to tee into that tap that is not in the DHW circuit.
That is why I suggested using the boiler side. It does work.
I did also ask for some photos of the actual tank. I have not seen one in person in some time and was not paying attention to the tappings at the time.
That would answer the question.
Another alternative is to connect a concentric pipe to the hot side. The longer tube has to be long enough to get to the bottom of the tank.
This is not as preferable as the other ways but might be done if you have enough headroom to get that long tube in.


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## maple1 (Apr 29, 2014)

I made a mistake in what I posted last night.

My HWH has the inlet on the bottom. I T'd into that - but up top I didn't T into the hot-out, I T'd into the T&P fitting.

Not sure about the Nyletherm & short-circuiting, since I don't have one. Tom should certainly know what he speaks of though. But with my setup which has the sidearm still in place but now a FPHX also there, right above the sidearm - I think it splits flow between that side & thru the tank when hot water is being used. I have the temp sensor of my Johnson controller on the bottom T right outside the tank. So after short time of hot water use, it detects that & starts the sidearm/FPHX circuit. Once it gets going, it can make hot water faster than it's being used. So no issue with lack of hot water. Even if that circuit didn't start, with the 'short circuited' water entering the tank at the T&P fitting, which is down the side of the tank a bit, plus the 80 gallon capacity, there would still be a lot of hot water used before it ran out. I've only had this new FPHX in place for a week, but so far - it works great. I should be able to get full mileage out of my storage now when not burning for heat. But that remains to be fully seen since I'm still burning most every day - friggin spring just doesn't want to bust out here.

I think the key to decent add-on HP operation is lots of well-insulated tank capacity. Not sure what the pumping capacity is of the Nyletherm - but wonder if you choked down the size of that circuit some you could reduce the short circuiting but the Nyletherm would still be able to pump sufficiently through it? That might not be a good thing to try though.

EDIT: My slow fingers again, didn't see Toms post...


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## maple1 (Apr 29, 2014)

Donl said:


> The way I would connect the heatpump is a follows:
> 
> ->. Connect cold domestic water  inlet to the HP inlet. That way cooler water will be drawn up through the dip tube.
> 
> -> Connect HP outlet to boiler supply between circulator and tank.  I assume circulator has a built in check valve.


 

That sounds like you'd mix DHW & boiler water? Might have misunderstood...


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## DZL_Damon (Apr 29, 2014)

tom in maine said:


> Another alternative is to connect a concentric pipe to the hot side. The longer tube has to be long enough to get to the bottom of the tank.
> This is not as preferable as the other ways but might be done if you have enough headroom to get that long tube in.


 
That's what I had to do on my buddies tank. Works great... more efficient than doing the boiler water side since you do not need to run the HP at a higher delta T to effectively transfer heat (run the HP at 120*F water output vs less efficient 140*F water output).


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## huffdawg (Apr 29, 2014)

tom in maine said:


> The issue is that if you tee into the DHW cold in and hot out, the tank will heat okay, but when you draw off hot water, the water flow tends to short circuit through the heat pump.
> I cannot see check valves helping.
> They might work on allowing proper draw through the tank but if they accomplish that, the heat pump circulator might not open them (it is small circulator that has some pressure drop to overcome with the heat exchanger inside the HP).
> The Triangle tank does not show a drain or PR valve as an extra tap on the tank. If there was an additional tap, then it would be simple to tee into that tap that is not in the DHW circuit.
> ...



Tom I sent you a link like the one at the start of this thread , if you scroll down on it it shows a nice coloured diagram of my smart 40 with a legend beside it explaining all tappings..    I don't think I can get a better diagram than that one.   Did the link not work for you?


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## tom in maine (Apr 29, 2014)

Hi Dale,
What I need to know is if there are any other DHW tappings on the tank. I cannot see any in the brochure you sent. 
If that is the case (there are no other taps, and I think that is the case), then either a concentric pipe connection through the hot DHW outlet or a tie in through the boiler side is what will work.


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## huffdawg (Apr 29, 2014)

tom in maine said:


> Hi Dale,
> What I need to know is if there are any other DHW tappings on the tank. I cannot see any in the brochure you sent.
> If that is the case (there are no other taps, and I think that is the case), then either a concentric pipe connection through the hot DHW outlet or a tie in through the boiler side is what will work.



there is an aux. tapping.   it just has a gauge threaded into it .


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## huffdawg (Apr 29, 2014)

.  The trappings on the top of tank


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## tom in maine (Apr 29, 2014)

If that goes into the DHW side, you can use that and one of the other tapping for DHW.


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## huffdawg (Apr 30, 2014)

All connected and running since 4 pst


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## tom in maine (Apr 30, 2014)

Yay! Glad you got them!


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## huffdawg (May 1, 2014)

tom in maine said:


> Yay! Glad you got them!




ya all was good , thanx Tom.


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## Clarkbug (May 1, 2014)

huffdawg said:


> All connected and running since 4 pst



Is that just pex that you used for your connections?


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## maple1 (May 1, 2014)

Nice.

Did you figure out your Triangle Tube? I was thinking it must have a drain on it? So you should be able to T your HP-in to that? That should eliminate the short-circuit thing - I would think.


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## Donl (May 1, 2014)

Dale,  Would you explain how you wired your nyle to a non-electric dhw tank. Mine is connected to an electric dhw tank and works well.  I have closely monitored kwh usage before and after the install and have found that power usage has been cut by slightly more than half. For me this works out to about $27.00 per month savings. Almost a case of beer!


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## huffdawg (May 1, 2014)

Don,  there are three wires coming out of the Nyle that were prewired by Tom in Maine . Yellow ,Blue,and Green. The green is not used . the yellow and blue are the 2 legs for 240v .   From the panel to the junction box I used 12/2 conductor.  I connected both legs to the 12/2 conductor and interrupted one of them with a L6006C honey well aquastat , I used a 15amp 120/240 breaker at the panel.  

Do you use a lot of hot water?
A case a beer a month makes for one good party at the end of the year..


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## huffdawg (May 1, 2014)

Clarkbug said:


> Is that just pex that you used for your connections?



Ya I used hepex tubing Clarkbug..  Its the stuff that won't allow oxygen to impregnate through.


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## huffdawg (May 1, 2014)

Took 5 hours from a cold tank of 52 gallons to 129


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## huffdawg (May 1, 2014)

maple1 said:


> Nice.
> 
> Did you figure out your Triangle Tube? I was thinking it must have a drain on it? So you should be able to T your HP-in to that? That should eliminate the short-circuit thing - I would think.



The drain is the cold water in dip tube ..  you have to syphon the tank out ..     I will use the aux tapping to connect my HP outlet to.


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## Donl (May 1, 2014)

huffdawg said:


> Don,  there are three wires coming out of the Nyle that were prewired by Tom in Maine . Yellow ,Blue,and Green. The green is not used . the yellow and blue are the 2 legs for 240v .   From the panel to the junction box I used 12/2 conductor.  I connected both legs to the 12/2 conductor and interrupted one of them with a L6006C honey well aquastat , I used a 15amp 120/240 breaker at the panel.
> 
> Do you use a lot of hot water?
> A case a beer a month makes for one good party at the end of the year..



We don't use a lot of hot water, there is just the two of us. What we do use is pretty much consistent from day to day.
I have an Efergy energy monitor connect to the dhw circuit.  Before installing the nyle we were averaging 10.0kwh's per day. With the Nyle installed we are averaging. 4.8 kwh's a day. That is a 5.2 kwh savings.

5.2 kwh X  .186 cents/kwh X. 30 days = $29.01  per month savings. (EDIT) This figure includes hst.


A little over a year to pay for itself, then free beer for life! Not bad at all.


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## Clarkbug (May 1, 2014)

huffdawg said:


> Ya I used hepex tubing Clarkbug..  Its the stuff that won't allow oxygen to impregnate through.



But for DHW the oxygen barrier doesnt really matter, since there is fresh water coming in all the time.  (Unless you are hooked to the boiler side, in which case ignore my comment....)


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## huffdawg (May 2, 2014)

Clarkbug said:


> But for DHW the oxygen barrier doesnt really matter, since there is fresh water coming in all the time.  (Unless you are hooked to the boiler side, in which case ignore my comment....)



Ya I know, it was just some left over I had laying around


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## Clarkbug (May 2, 2014)

Either way, looks good!


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## tom in maine (May 2, 2014)

Hooking up a Nyletherm to a non-electric tank is a fairly simple changeover. There are four connections to the unit as it comes from the factory.
Green is ground, it should be connected. The other three original connections are  L1 and L2, which are the 240vac feed and "T" which was originally connected
to the lower element. The T connection was a funky design that allowed the use of the lower electric element to control the heat pump.

To operate without that electric water heater control, you need to install a 20k ohm 5 watt resistor between L1 and T. The T feed-in wire is removed from the unit.
You then remove a single wire from L2 that goes to the Bypass switch inside the unit. The unit will now run continuously unless you interrupt the power by installing an aquastat on either L1 or L2 to make on temperature drop. The aquastat is installed on the tank.

If someone is purchasing a Nyletherm, I do this conversion ahead of shipping at no charge. If you need to do it in the field, we can talk you through it. I have a wiring diagram which I can email you.


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## Donl (May 2, 2014)

tom in maine said:


> Hooking up a Nyletherm to a non-electric tank is a fairly simple changeover. There are four connections to the unit as it comes from the factory.
> Green is ground, it should be connected. The other three original connections are  L1 and L2, which are the 240vac feed and "T" which was originally connected
> to the lower element. The T connection was a funky design that allowed the use of the lower electric element to control the heat pump.
> 
> ...



Thanks Tom for this explanation. I was curious as to how the conversion was done. Now I know.


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## kopeck (May 2, 2014)

I did the wiring my self and it was super simple.  I also didn't mind doing it as now I have a good feel for how the whole thing works.

I'm still not really sure why a resistor is needed but that's part of the magic that makes it work with an aquastat. 

K


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## huffdawg (May 2, 2014)

I would like to use this relay to control dhw temp from the nyle heat pump. I know this might be a dumb question.  The four terminals  on the left are already being used to turn on a circ pump that supplies boiler water to heat the tank,it is 120v.  Could I use the terminals on the right to interrupt power to the nyle, it is 240 volt?


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## tom in maine (May 2, 2014)

I am not sure that this is the right fit. It appears that this unit is passing power to a device, not just switching.  Many aquastats will switch the 3.5amps that the Nyletherm draws without the electric element in the equation, eliminating the need for a relay.


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## huffdawg (May 2, 2014)

tom in maine said:


> I am not sure that this is the right fit. It appears that this unit is passing power to a device, not just switching.  Many aquastats will switch the 3.5amps that the Nyletherm draws without the electric element in the equation, eliminating the need for a relay.



There isn't a real convenient spot for an aquastat.  just thought it might work ,would make installation a lot simpler.


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## huffdawg (May 5, 2014)

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Got the second DHW Heat Pump running ....  No burnibg any more wood till Oct.


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## huffdawg (May 6, 2014)

funny one unit seems to make a fair bit of condensate and the other doesn't make any .


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## joecool85 (Aug 22, 2014)

Donl said:


> We don't use a lot of hot water, there is just the two of us. What we do use is pretty much consistent from day to day.
> I have an Efergy energy monitor connect to the dhw circuit.  Before installing the nyle we were averaging 10.0kwh's per day. With the Nyle installed we are averaging. 4.8 kwh's a day. That is a 5.2 kwh savings.
> 
> 5.2 kwh X  .186 cents/kwh X. 30 days = $29.01  per month savings. (EDIT) This figure includes hst.
> ...



How much did you pay for your Nyle?


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## huffdawg (Aug 26, 2014)

Hey Tom , what do you do with the nyle's after they are put out of service  for the winter heating season?   I assume you shut the supply and discharge then drain the water out, I guess you might call it winterizing.


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## tom in maine (Aug 26, 2014)

I do nothing because I feed one of our tanks directly. Since the innards of the heat pump are all copper. I would not bother to drain it.

The units are $300 plus tax in Maine or shipping elsewhere (+$65 in CONUS).


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## velvetfoot (Aug 26, 2014)

Just thought I'd chime in and say I'm happy with mine.  It's charging an electric water heater.


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## huffdawg (Aug 26, 2014)

Yes I am also very happy with the two of mine 5 months no wood consumption by the time Oct comes around.  Thank you Tom for the friendly service and all the installation tips.


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## avc8130 (Aug 26, 2014)

Wow...anyone done the mental exercise of determining if it is cheaper to keep the Nyletherm running next to the wood boiler extracting the heat given off or if it is cheaper to run the indirect with the wood boiler water heat?

ac


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## Coal Reaper (Aug 26, 2014)

avc8130 said:


> Wow...anyone done the mental exercise of determining if it is cheaper to keep the Nyletherm running next to the wood boiler extracting the heat given off or if it is cheaper to run the indirect with the wood boiler water heat?
> 
> ac


 that might only make sense if you are running a WG


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## velvetfoot (Aug 26, 2014)

avc8130 said:


> Wow...anyone done the mental exercise of determining if it is cheaper to keep the Nyletherm running next to the wood boiler extracting the heat given off or if it is cheaper to run the indirect with the wood boiler water heat?
> 
> ac


I would think if the excess heat from the boiler isn't really needed down there, why not?  On the other hand, a lot of non-cheap plumbing I'm putting in now will go to waste.


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## maple1 (Aug 26, 2014)

avc8130 said:


> Wow...anyone done the mental exercise of determining if it is cheaper to keep the Nyletherm running next to the wood boiler extracting the heat given off or if it is cheaper to run the indirect with the wood boiler water heat?
> 
> ac


 

If you mean just keep the Nyletherm running all winter beside the boiler, I think I would shut the Nyletherm down in the winter also. It doesn't use much juice relatively speaking, but it's still some juice.


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## velvetfoot (Aug 26, 2014)

maple1 said:


> If you mean just keep the Nyletherm running all winter beside the boiler, I think I would shut the Nyletherm down in the winter also. It doesn't use much juice relatively speaking, but it's still some juice.


According to this, www.eia.gov/neic/experts/heatcalc.xls , I'm apparently wasting my money on pellets, in general, not just dhw,  vs. an aire source heat pump.   Oh well, what else is new.


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## avc8130 (Aug 26, 2014)

Coal Reaper said:


> that might only make sense if you are running a WG



Well it clearly wouldn't work for the guys wasting all of their boiler and storage loss outside of their heated envelop...


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## JP11 (Aug 27, 2014)

I think one of these is great.  The excess heat given off from the boiler and storage is NOT welcome in summer.  I've tended to have my burns at night, with the doors open.  This might be a better solution.

Since I just installed 48 solar panels.. I'm thinking I need a nyle therm before next winter.

So.. indirect 80 gallon buderus DHW tank.  It's horizontal and boiler is sitting on top of it.

This just T's in to in and out of the DHW??  runs off the same t-stat?  or one of it's own?  Been keeping my DHW at 125 or so due to boiler storage stopping at 140 or a bit under.

I'd love the cold, and dry air UPSTAIRS.  If this unit isn't terrible loud.. it might just be the help my central air in that zone needs.

T in, run it up into the floor above.  Got room in there for it.


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