# Creosote leaking from new stove?



## char (Nov 24, 2013)

Hi,

I recently installed a stove in a small cabin. I did a lot research beforehand and was prepared to buy all the proper equipment -- stainless steel stove pipe, class A chimney, support box, storm collar, etc. etc.

I was working with a family member who didn't think we needed all that fancy stuff, and he went out and bought some galvanized pipe and insisted on just running that straight through the roof. He said it would be fine and the guy at the store also said it would be fine. I protested a lot and really didn't feel comfortable doing this, but he was quite persistent and said, "We'll do it my way, and if it doesn't work, we'll fix it later."

Well, it's two days later, and it doesn't work.

My family member insisted that we did not need to seal the pipe at all, which I strongly disagreed with. I wante to seal all the seams because this pipe did not look very airtight to me and I was worried about smoke leaking out. But we just used stove cement where the flue connects to the pipe, and left the seams without any sealant. And we used regular silicone where the pipe runs through the chimney flashing (I thought we should use hi-temp silicone but he said that was not necessary). The flashing was installed at the same time as the shingles and woven in.

I ran the stove for 6-8 hours yesterday without much trouble, except that the galvanized pipe turned white for about the first 12" above the flue -- the pipe temperature got up to 600-700 degrees at some point, and I'm sure it's not rated for that kind of heat. I read all about the dangers of zinc oxide, etc., but I also read that you need much higher temps to be concerned about that sort of thing.

Anyway, today at one point when getting the fire going, I smelled a foul smelling chemical odor which made me feel sick. I didn't see any smoke, and I heard that with new stoves you might get a smell from the paint curing, but I figured there might be smoke leaking through the seams in the stove pipe. I kept the fire running for another 4 hours, and at one point returned to the cabin to find a lot of brown/black sludge leaking from the middle of the stove pipe about 4 feet above the stove -- running all the way down the pipe and dripping onto the stove and floor.

I'm guessing this is creosote?

It smelled terrible and I put the fire out immediately.

A couple notes -- I was burning seasoned oak and maple. The stove pipe temp was between 300-500 degrees. The outside temp is cold today -- 20 degrees with strong wind gusts up to 40 mph. One of the windiest days I can remember in recent history. The smoke coming out of the chimney was running horizontally.

The chimney setup is: Stove > 4"->6" adapter > 2' galvanized pipe > 2' galvanized pipe > 5' galvanized pipe (going through roof flashing) > chimney cap

Anyway, this is my first experience with wood stoves and not a very good one. I'm really not sure what to do other than order some real chimney parts and install those -- but I could use any advice anyone has to give. Are there any other factors that could have caused this? I'm just really surprised to get so much gunk after just 1 day of burning.

I'm going to include pictures if possible. Sorry this is such a long post -- I'm a bit overwhelmed with this because it's very cold out and now I need to find a new place to sleep.


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## PLAYS WITH FIRE (Nov 24, 2013)

I could be mistaken but I think your pipe is upside down....it does not go together like an exhaust on a car for air flow it goes the other way for creosote to go down with out leaking like it is...others will chime!


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## RockyMtnHigh (Nov 24, 2013)

You need to ditch that galvanized pipe fast and get some real connector pipe and Class A chimney. You are asking for trouble if you don't.... such as burning your house down and/or poisoning yourself. Also male end down.... always. Otherwise creosote will leak out of the seem, down the pipe, and burn.

You need to assure your family member they are not allowed near any heating appliances from now on lol, and go back to the store that sold you that stuff and have that employee fired.


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## Nick Mystic (Nov 24, 2013)

I second RockyMtnHigh's advice. That creosote leaking onto a hot stove can prove disastrous! Can't afford to cheap out on chimney parts without getting into trouble. You might want to double check all your clearances on the stove and pipe while you're at it. If that pipe you are using is single wall it looks awfully close to the ceiling joists.


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## Firedancer (Nov 24, 2013)

"We'll do it my way, and if it doesn't work, we'll fix it later."


A job done wrong takes twice as long.


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## Excavator (Nov 24, 2013)

pipe is upside down and wrong pipe as said above. Don't burn it any more like that


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## char (Nov 24, 2013)

Thanks, you guys respond quick!

I'm wondering if some of the gunk leaking was stove cement (we put a bunch of it where the flue connects to the pipe, because it didn't seem like a very tight seal). That seems like an awful lot of creosote for just 1 day of burning.

Now I know more about wood stoves than I did 1 hour ago.


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## PLAYS WITH FIRE (Nov 24, 2013)

I woldnt go too nuts fellows, I believe some galvanized pipe can be class A multi fuel pipe....I wait for experts on that though.

But char I'd hold off until you get experts advice..


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## Hogwildz (Nov 24, 2013)

Firedancer said:


> "We'll do it my way, and if it doesn't work, we'll fix it later."
> 
> 
> A job done wrong takes twice as long.


Along the same lines as: "we do it nice, but we do it twice".

Your family member needs a boot up his arse.
The white stuff you see on the galvanized, is an indicator of the crap your breathing in.
Get the proper piping, period.

The creosote is a result of the uninsulated galvanized piping, and most likely wet wood.


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## char (Nov 24, 2013)

Hogwildz said:


> Along the same lines as: "we do it nice, but we do it twice".
> 
> Your family member needs a boot up his arse.
> The white stuff you see on the galvanized, is an indicator of the crap your breathing in.
> Get the proper piping, period.



Yeah, I was a bit concerned when I cranked up the heat and the pipe turned white. Although there are two sides to the story: http://donkey32.proboards.com/thread/373/afraid-galvanized-pipe-anyways

We didn't really have a choice as to which way to install the pipe, because the 4->6 adapter and the chimney cap were designed to fit with the male ends of pipe going up.


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## Backwoods Savage (Nov 24, 2013)

And for sure that wood is not "seasoned" else you would not have that creosote problem already. But that installation sounds like a total disaster. I would not recommend burning any more wood until that is fixed right. And use black pipe indoors. Outside you need some insulated class A pipe and 9' total for a chimney usually won't get the job done either.


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## RockyMtnHigh (Nov 24, 2013)

PLAYS WITH FIRE said:


> I woldnt go too nuts fellows, I believe some galvanized pipe can be class A multi fuel pipe....I wait for experts on that though.
> 
> But char I'd hold off until you get experts advice..


 Yes, galvanized outer wall, insulated and stainless inner, not galvanized single wall duct pipe.


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## Sprinter (Nov 24, 2013)

Besides the pipe issue, I'm concerned that you are getting any liquid creosote at all.  After you get the pipe situation resolved, take a close look at your wood, get a moisture meter and use it on a freshly split face.  It needs to be 20 - 25% moisture content.


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## jeff_t (Nov 24, 2013)

For sure, do it your way. That is a disaster waiting to happen.


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## PLAYS WITH FIRE (Nov 24, 2013)

Oh, yea I see now this may be just like duct pipe or something.... That's not good!


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## char (Nov 24, 2013)

Sprinter said:


> Besides the pipe issue, I'm concerned that you are getting liquid creosote at all.  After you get the pipe situation resolved, take a close look at your wood, get a moisture meter and use it on a freshly split face.  It needs to be 20 - 25% moisture content.


Yeah, I was very surprised at the amount of brown liquid leaking out. The wood has been sitting in a garage for 1 year.


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## Hogwildz (Nov 24, 2013)

char said:


> Yeah, I was a bit concerned when I cranked up the heat and the pipe turned white. Although there are two sides to the story: http://donkey32.proboards.com/thread/373/afraid-galvanized-pipe-anyways
> 
> We didn't really have a choice as to which way to install the pipe, because the 4->6 adapter and the chimney cap were designed to fit with the male ends of pipe going up.


I don't give a crap what that guy says or uses. If galvanized was acceptable and safe, everyone would be using it, and it would be acceptable by code.
If you get the proper stove pipe and class A up through the roof, the seams will be correct and the cap will fit just fine.
Male end always down as BG pointed out. Then all that creosote from that wet wood will stay in the pipe and run down into the stove, instead of all over the outside.
Your next issue will be a chimney fire if you don't get some good dry wood. And you don't want a chimney fire with that galvanized.
You came to the right place, and your getting very good advise. Do it right, make it safe, get some dry wood, and enjoy.

Depending on the wood, a year usually ain't long enough to dry.
I have some oak that is 2yrs cut, split and stacked, and it is not ready yet.


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## firefighterjake (Nov 24, 2013)

There are times and places when you can be cheap . . . choosing McDonalds instead of the 4-star restaurant, opting to buy a 4-cylinder car vs. a 8-cylinder car, opting to vacation closer to home vs. going on that cruise.

Cheaping out when it comes to something that can burn your house down or fill your house with toxic gases is not one of those times.


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## Sprinter (Nov 24, 2013)

We're beating you up pretty good here.  But I'm really glad that you decided to post this thread.  It's a very dangerous situation and your first instincts were right.


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## Hogwildz (Nov 24, 2013)

Up top outside, when you run the right pipe, make sure you get a storm collar for it also. Just siliconing around the flashing to the pipe is asking for a leak.

And use the proper sized 6" pipe. Stepping up to 8" is only going to create draft issues.


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## char (Nov 24, 2013)

Actually, the wood has only been sitting for 6 months, I just found out. So you're right -- not seasoned.

Believe me, I'm glad I posted this thread too. I was really stressed out about this project the whole time, because I wanted to do it properly and safely and it just didn't seem to be working out that way.

And thanks for the tip on the storm collar -- I did want to install one, but that didn't happen either.


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## Hogwildz (Nov 24, 2013)

Sounds like you knew most of this before the install. Next time, insist on doing things properly.
It seems you knew the answers you were going to get, now your suspicions are confirmed.
Just going to guess it is an older gentleman that knows how to do everything....
Back 30 years ago this would have been done by many, today, not much.

May sound like some are harsh, but it is more passion to see that you are safe. And wanting you to enjoy the stove and the heat it brings to full potential.
You did right by seeking answers, now you know what to do.
When you get it set up right, post some pics of that set up.
Don't hesitate to ask questions. We all did exactly that at one time or another. And still do.


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## char (Nov 24, 2013)

Hogwildz said:


> Sounds like you knew most of this before the install. Next time, insist on doing things properly.
> It seems you knew the answers you were going to get, now your suspicions are confirmed.
> Just going to guess it is an older gentleman that knows how to do everything....
> Back 30 years ago this would have been done by many, today, not much.
> ...



Hogwildz, you hit the nail right on the head.

And the gentleman in question is nearing 90 years old, an insanely hard working man who was up on the roof nailing down shingles and helped me build an entire cabin. So it was a delicate situation. And surely he installed plenty of these things back in the mid 1900s, and it was fine.

But I don't want to inhale poisonous fumes and burn to death in my sleep


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## RockyMtnHigh (Nov 24, 2013)

You will need a new flashing as well... that one just won't be large enough for a class A chimney, no big deal though. Go to a qualified hearth retailer and they will set you up properly. Glad you made the thread before something terrible happened.


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## jeff_t (Nov 24, 2013)

That appears to me to be 8" pipe, which would be the OD of 6" class A.

Are there plans for finishing the ceiling?


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## Sprinter (Nov 24, 2013)

char said:


> And the gentleman in question is nearing 90 years old, an insanely hard working man who was up on the roof nailing down shingles and helped me build an entire cabin. So it was a delicate situation.


That is delicate.  Reminds me of some situations in my life that I won't go into.  But I really understand.


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## Hogwildz (Nov 24, 2013)

jeff_t said:


> That appears to me to be 8" pipe, which would be the OD of 6" class A.
> 
> Are there plans for finishing the ceiling?



It is single wall galvanized. I'm seeing 8" single wall, not 6" double wall.
Not to mention, not many run class A inside the house.


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## jeff_t (Nov 24, 2013)

Hogwildz said:


> It is single wall galvanized. I'm seeing 8" single wall, not 6" double wall.
> Not to mention, not many run class A inside the house.



Apologies for the incomplete thought. The flashing is probably adequate, is what I meant.


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## Hogwildz (Nov 24, 2013)

jeff_t said:


> Apologies for the incomplete thought. The flashing is probably adequate, is what I meant.


ah, my mistake. At worst might have to trim a little off.


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## PLAYS WITH FIRE (Nov 24, 2013)

Why don't folks use class a in doors? Overkill and or extra heat from pipe?


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## Hogwildz (Nov 24, 2013)

Overkill and expense. Not sure if a support box would even work for the class A underneath.


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## PLAYS WITH FIRE (Nov 24, 2013)

Thanks, that what what I was thinking.


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## begreen (Nov 24, 2013)

Hogwildz said:


> It is single wall galvanized. I'm seeing 8" single wall, not 6" double wall.
> Not to mention, not many run class A inside the house.




Correct, and with single-wall pipe the *minimum* clearance to any combustible is 18". It may be the camera angle but the wood sure looks closer than 18". If so, drywall will make it even be closer and just as combustible. Certainly that is not safe clearances going up through the roofl. 

FYI, a layer of cement board directly on the studs is not adequate protection. For a proper wall shield there needs to be a ventilated air space behind it.

PS: Welcome aboard. Your instincts are right on. There is a right way to do this. It's more expensive initially but very inexpensive when compared to the possible negative consequences of an unsafe installation.

PPS: I don't think the flashing is correct or adequate for class A pipe because there is no support. From what I can see in the shots, the stove is supporting the pipe. And the top of the pipe does not look like it is 2 ft higher than the nearest roofline within 10ft..


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## Hogwildz (Nov 24, 2013)

begreen said:


> Correct, and with single-wall pipe the *minimum* clearance to any combustible is 18". It may be the camera angle but the wood sure looks closer than 18". If so, drywall will make it even be closer and just as combustible. A layer of cement board directly on the studs is not adequate protection. For a proper wall shield there needs to be a ventilated air space behind it.
> 
> PS: Welcome aboard. Your instincts are right on. There is a right way to do this. It's more expensive initially but very inexpensive when compared to the possible negative consequences of an unsafe installation.
> 
> PPS: I don't think the flashing is correct or adequate for class A pipe because there is no support. From what I can see in the shots, the stove is supporting the pipe. And the top of the pipe does not look like it is 2 ft higher than the nearest roofline within 10ft..


Should not a ceiling support box be installed? The flashing never supports the piping. Its either a ceiling support box or roof support?


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## begreen (Nov 24, 2013)

Yes, that's right unless a ceiling is going it later. Or a roof support could be installed for some brands. The flashing will have to be removed. I'm not sure how well it will survive that.


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## Sprinter (Nov 24, 2013)

Here's something else to consider.  Be sure the chimney meets the 10 - 3 - 2 rule:






Also, you probably need about 15' of flue height from stove top to cap for adequate draft.  I don't recall if you gave a height.

What kind of stove is this?


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## char (Nov 24, 2013)

I'll try to address all of your comments --

First, the stove is a Hobbit: http://www.salamanderstoves.com/docs/64/the_hobbit_stove/

The flue opening is 4", so I figured I could get a 4" chimney (6 inch outer diameter). We cut a hole in the roof and installed the metal flashing (6") and wove it into the shingles. But then I learned they don't make 4" chimneys in the USA and I would have to special order from Canada (expensive). I was looking at 4" Selkirk HT chimney pipe which was about $200 for a 3' section (comes in 1', 2', 3').

I had wanted to use a chimney box or roof support (I think roof support might make more sense in this installation because it's just a plywood roof) but as you can see we just ran the pipe straight through the roof with no support. It's just being supported by the stove. I don't plan on finishing the walls or ceiling. 

The pipe is 6" single-wall galvanized pipe. It is connected to the stove with a 4" to 6" adapter. There are two 2' sections and one 5' section for a total height of 9'. Add another 6" for the chimney cap. The chimney extends maybe a foot above the roof peak.

The stove manufacturer listed a minimum pipe length of 12', but in an email he said 9' would be ok. The stove is very small, 12x12x18".

Thanks for all the advice guys, this is really helpful.

By the way, since my roof is simply 3/4" plywood, what is the reason for using class A insulated pipe rather than just running double wall stove pipe through the roof? I know everything I have read says you MUST use class A pipe, but all those installations I looked at were going through finished ceilings, not just a sheet of plywood.


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## RockyMtnHigh (Nov 24, 2013)

jeff_t said:


> That appears to me to be 8" pipe, which would be the OD of 6" class A.
> 
> Are there plans for finishing the ceiling?


 Could be, in the very first post he says it's 6" so that's what I was rolling with.... 6" single wall galvanized round ducting. I do however have to wonder about the 4"-6" increaser, so perhaps it is actually a 6"-8" increaser.....


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## RockyMtnHigh (Nov 24, 2013)

Minimum chimney run is for flow issues with the stove itself only.... The 10-3-2 foot rule applies at all times. I can honestly say I've never ever seen a woodstove with a 4" flue outlet. Very interesting. The closest I've come is potbelly stoves (older than I am) that are 5" round or 5" oval to round.


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## Sprinter (Nov 24, 2013)

According to this site  http://www.fluesystems.com/shop/Salamander_Hobbit.html  

The flue is 4".

(Click on specifications)

The Salamander site is not accessible now apparently because of problems with server space.


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## RockyMtnHigh (Nov 24, 2013)

I got a server too busy message as well, was interested to read up on the stove myself


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## begreen (Nov 24, 2013)

char said:


> I'll try to address all of your comments --
> 
> First, the stove is a Hobbit: http://www.salamanderstoves.com/docs/64/the_hobbit_stove/
> 
> ...




I think you may be confusing double-wall connector pipe (just a pipe within a pipe) with double-wall, insulated class A pipe. (shiny chimney pipe). Class A pipe must be used for the chimney at the roof penetration. Your cheapest route here will be to go with Supervent I think and a roof support bracket. That will allow the pipe to be supported and drop down into the cabin interior by 6 inches or more. At that point you would switch to double wall connector pipe (DSP) via an adapter down to the stove. If you want to stick with single wall (not galvanized) down to the stove you will need to drop the class A further into the room, then connect a 6x4" reducer, crimp on the bottom, then into 4" black stove pipe. If the connector pipe is closer the wall than 18", either the wall or the pipe will need to be shielded.


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