# Unions



## begreen (Sep 17, 2019)

Looks like a new GM electric truck may be one of the items on the negotiation table with the UAW. 
"US automotive giant General Motors has offered the chance to build an electric pickup (or, ute) at its Detroit plant as part of a $US7 billion ($A10.2 billion) deal including advanced battery systems to quell striking US auto workers."








						GM woos striking workers with plans for all-electric pick-up
					

General Motors offers electric ute as part of negotiations with UAW for Detroit plant in $US7bn deal including advanced battery systems.




					thedriven.io


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## Ashful (Sep 17, 2019)

begreen said:


> Looks like a new GM electric truck may be one of the items on the negotiation table with the UAW.
> "US automotive giant General Motors has offered the chance to build an electric pickup (or, ute) at its Detroit plant as part of a $US7 billion ($A10.2 billion) deal including advanced battery systems to quell striking US auto workers."
> 
> 
> ...


Striking is nothing but legalized extortion and collusion, it should be a crime, the consumer is always the loser in this racket.


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## begreen (Sep 17, 2019)

That is a tangent for the Inglenook. The consumer is also the laborer. But you're right. Let's get rid of the 40 hr work week, safer working conditions,  child labor protections, good wages etc.  and go back to the good old days.

PS: By that same note the exorbitant salaries for their execs could be called extortion too. No one seems to grouse about that.


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 17, 2019)

$62 an hour and on strike.  Geez no wonder pickups are so expensive!


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## begreen (Sep 17, 2019)

The top production wage at GM is $33 an hour, while starting temp workers are paid as little as $15 an hour. I read the strike is mostly about temp workers. Some have been kept on for 5yrs without benefits. FWIW, I was making $33/hr in 1984.

FYI, the CEO of GM makes almost $11,000 an hour if she puts in a 2000 hr. year or a measly $7290 per hour if she puts in a grueling 3000 hr year. That's still 220 times the wage for the top paid production worker.








						What striking autoworkers want from General Motors
					

Automaker has raked in $27.5 billion in profits since 2015, when it last negotiated a labor contract with the UAW




					www.cbsnews.com


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 17, 2019)

So whats to keep GM from moving south and saving at least $12 an hour per employee.  Or out of the country and saving much more.  CEO pay is irrelevant in that regard. Some unions have a tendency to price themselves out of work. Like the UAW did a few yrs back.


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## begreen (Sep 17, 2019)

With wages so stagnant while the real costs of living keep going up, somethings got to give.


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 17, 2019)

The only thing going up around here is property taxes due to Govt Unions and Teacher unions. Inflation has been almost nonexistant for quite a few years otherwise. Unless you count healthcare but thats a whole nother thread.


			https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/us-workers-see-fastest-wage-increase-in-a-decade/2018/10/31/3c2e7894-dc85-11e8-85df-7a6b4d25cfbb_story.html?noredirect=on


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## peakbagger (Sep 17, 2019)

If not for the odd situation that no one could have predicted 5 years ago of very low oil prices and repealed more stringent emission regulations, the US car market would be looking a lot different than it is today. Ford spent a lot of money switching to aluminum and Ecoboost engines to prep for the new standards while GM didn't. GM is raking it in as they are just making the same truck with some sheet metal tweaks and high value accessories. Both Ford and GM have not made money on passenger cars for years and the business model was sell the cars at loss to offset the poor fuel mileage of the trucks to cut down on CAFE standards penalties.  If there is interest in reducing greenhouse gas emissions, transportation has to do its part and that means downsizing the fleet away from single passenger trucks used to commute to work. Electrics will fill part of the niche but not all. Unlike other pollutants there is no current economic way to scrub CO2 from a mobile source so CO2 reduction is increase vehicle efficiency and the low hanging fruit for efficiency is reduce vehicle weight. Body on frame is great for truck production as its cheap to retool sheet metal but regular cars long ago switched to unibodies as they are far lighter and thus potentially more efficient. The folks in economies with high gas prices long ago figured out how to do this far cheaper than the US and that market is gone and not coming back.


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## CaptSpiff (Sep 17, 2019)

begreen said:


> The top production wage at GM is $33 an hour, while starting temp workers are paid as little as $15 an hour. I read the strike is mostly about temp workers. Some have been kept on for 5yrs without benefits. FWIW, I was making $33/hr in 1984.[/URL]



The NY Times article mentioned the UAW made big concessions following GM's "near bankruptcy-govt bailout", creating a two tier system. Existing workers got to keep their wage & benefits, but new hires start at $17 on a step progression to $31/hr after 8 years. Temp worker class was also allowed and start at $2/hr less.
Assuming an avg work year of 2080 hours, not really the "living LARGE" wages of times past. Non-unionized workers at companies in southern states make about $2/hr less on avg.
The above wage numbers do not include some of the "profit sharing" in recent contracts.  Per NY Times article: "Under the contract that just ended, workers have gotten a share of G.M.’s profits averaging $11,000 a year over the last three years. "


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## Ashful (Sep 17, 2019)

begreen said:


> That is a tangent for the Inglenook. The consumer is also the laborer. But you're right. Let's get rid of the 40 hr work week, safer working conditions, child labor protections, good wages etc. and go back to the good old days.


It’s been a long time since any of those arguments were really relevant to our national situation, no need to jump back in time four generations to justify a modern crime.

Collective bargaining is simple extortion, and recognition of the fact that what you do is not worth what you’re attempting to charge for it.


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## CaptSpiff (Sep 17, 2019)

begreen said:


> FWIW, I was making $33/hr in 1984.


You were doing very well back then!

Avg starting salary for Engineers in 1980 was about $20K (or about $10/hr). 
By 1985 starting salary for Engineers had jumped to $28K (or about $13.50/hr).

I remember those numbers were in line with auto workers back then. 
Today, starting salary for Engineers is about $65K. 
Looks like the factory workers have not kept up.


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## begreen (Sep 17, 2019)

Yes, that was a good time period. I shifted careers a few times after that and dropped down to $25/hr for awhile. I am amazed that engineers were starting out that low back in '85. What field was this, mech eng, chemical eng, ? An entry-level software engineer can be $75-110K these days.


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## bholler (Sep 17, 2019)

Seasoned Oak said:


> So whats to keep GM from moving south and saving at least $12 an hour per employee.  Or out of the country and saving much more.  CEO pay is irrelevant in that regard. Some unions have a tendency to price themselves out of work. Like the UAW did a few yrs back.


$33 an hour is far from pricing themselves out of work.  Granted that is only their pay when you factor in all the costs of employing that person you get the $62 an hour you mentioned.  And a little less than 2x an employees wage for total cost is not to out of line.


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## bholler (Sep 17, 2019)

Seasoned Oak said:


> The only thing going up around here is property taxes due to Govt Unions and Teacher unions. Inflation has been almost nonexistant for quite a few years otherwise. Unless you count healthcare but thats a whole nother thread.
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/us-workers-see-fastest-wage-increase-in-a-decade/2018/10/31/3c2e7894-dc85-11e8-85df-7a6b4d25cfbb_story.html?noredirect=on


Yes that is a completely different issue than labor unions.  All unions certainly have their problems.  But without them workers would be powerless.


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## bholler (Sep 17, 2019)

Ashful said:


> It’s been a long time since any of those arguments were really relevant to our national situation, no need to jump back in time four generations to justify a modern crime.
> 
> Collective bargaining is simple extortion, and recognition of the fact that what you do is not worth what you’re attempting to charge for it.


You don't think corporations would gladly cut workers wages to continue to increase profits if given the chance?   I agree there is plenty of corruption in unions.  But the American worker even non union ones would be screwed without them.


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## EatenByLimestone (Sep 17, 2019)

They are pricing themselves into automation.

They all are screwing themselves.  Wages are only part of the picture.  What are their benefits worth?  Why does the pickup cost so much?  Pension expenses.  $33 an hour is beans.  GM is getting labor for that wage.  It's all of those pensions and healthcare benefits they pay for retired people that is killing them.  It's the same as the post office.   BUT, they agreed to those terms.  Maybe it was to get lines moving again, but it kicked the can down the road.  I think the straightaway ended and they are looking at a hairpin curve with a cliff just beyond.  

It's not a single party that is to blame, both parties are to blame.


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## Ashful (Sep 17, 2019)

bholler said:


> You don't think corporations would gladly cut workers wages to continue to increase profits if given the chance?


I believe the market will find what that worker's output is really worth.  That's how it works in my profession, anyway.


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## bholler (Sep 17, 2019)

Ashful said:


> I believe the market will find what that worker's output is really worth.  That's how it works in my profession, anyway.


Yes for your job.  But doesn't your job rely pretty heavily on govt contracts?   If I am mistaken I apologize.  But if so that pay scale is so far out of whack comparing it to the wages for the general population is not very relevant.


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## Ashful (Sep 17, 2019)

bholler said:


> Yes for your job.  But doesn't your job rely pretty heavily on govt contracts?


Approximately 8% of our revenue over the last 5 years came from US government (defense) work, the rest is commercial or foreign government.  Prior to 2014, it was more than 99% commercial.


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## bholler (Sep 17, 2019)

Ok then I was mistaken sorry.  But still to compare the pay rates of educated professionals to a factory worker who in most cases is pretty expendable is not exactly valid.


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## Ashful (Sep 17, 2019)

bholler said:


> Ok then I was mistaken sorry.  But still to compare the pay rates of educated professionals to a factory worker who in most cases is pretty expendable is not exactly valid.


I'm not comparing.  I'm just saying that if you don't want to live on factory worker wages, learn a trade, and get out of the factory.  Don't assume that necessarily means an expensive college or any other perceived high barrier to entry, it could be plumbing or sweeping chimneys.  Heck, one of my good buddies is a house painter, and he does well enough on that, certainly better than the factory wages debated above.


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## bholler (Sep 17, 2019)

Ashful said:


> I'm not comparing.  I'm just saying that if you don't want to live on factory worker wages, learn a trade, and get out of the factory.  Don't assume that necessarily means an expensive college or any other perceived high barrier to entry, it could be plumbing or sweeping chimneys.  Heck, one of my good buddies is a house painter, and he does well enough on that, certainly better than the factory wages debated above.


Untill those factory workers that used to make a good wage and could afford to pay to have painting done etc get bumped down to min wage.  Then there is no one to pay for that skilled labor.  

And for the record I do have a fancy college degree but after working in corporate design for a few years I quickly learned I wasn't made to sit behind a desk.   I very rarely regret that decision.


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## EatenByLimestone (Sep 17, 2019)

I worked 10 years in finance.   Met my wife at Morgan Stanley.  Left that world and fell into nuisance wildlife.  Loved it, and opened my own shop with a buddy to fix the things I didnt like other places doing.  We started our 3rd employee Monday.  150% personnel growth since May.


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## bholler (Sep 17, 2019)

There are some days I am standing on a snowy roof freezing my butt off that I think a nice warm chair behind a desk would be nice again though.  But those days are few and far between.


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## pjohnson (Sep 17, 2019)

Why do the ones that sit at a desk have the perception that union workers are lazy and unproductive.  I've worked at both union and non union large companies 50,000 plus employees and there are plenty of hard working union people. If the companies treated their employees the way they treat their executives there would be no need for unions.  Do you really think you would have 40 hour work weeks, weeks of vacation, sick time, holiday pay, pensions, 401k, medical insurance if someone hadn't fought for it.? Why do so many think they are the only one that should be paid a decent wage the rest should make minimum  wage? Do you really think an engineer  or painter or plumber would make 100K if everyone else made minimum wage?


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## EatenByLimestone (Sep 17, 2019)

It's the lazy and unproductive union members that give the rest a bad name.

As far as benefits go, yeah, I think they'd exist without unions.  

Capitalism would bring them about.   I want the best, most productive employees.   Sick, burnt out and over stressed people are more likely to get injured.  Guess what happens to productivity when a highly skilled employee quits or gets injured?  Benefits make them healthier, happier and more profitable.


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## begreen (Sep 18, 2019)

That is an enlightened approach, not always reality. It's why all those women died in the Triangle Shirtwaist fire. The profit comes first. There are always those out there that don't give a damn about employees and will squeeze the life out of them. This is particularly true with immigrants and in areas where there is only one factory/mine/plant to work in. These same employers often do the same at exploiting the environment regardless of damage.


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## EatenByLimestone (Sep 18, 2019)

It doesn't work as well in low/no skilled jobs, but it does work.  

Burger flipping, there are guys out there who have figured out how to do it better than the others.   Maybe he/she can run a grill with 1.5x the burgers the average person can.   That person should be better compensated than an average burger flipper since they make it possible for you not to hire on another person.  If the average flipper makes $8, that person is worth $11.  

Find somebody that can do it well, take care of them, and you're more profitable.  Capitalism in it's purest form.

The problem comes in when you have somebody else setting a minimum pay rate across the board.  Burger flippers now need to make $15.   You used to run 3 average flippers for the cost to run 2 now.  Can you raise the price of your burgers 50% to cover the new expense?   The star flipper might be worth 15, but the pimple faced kid that can't figure out how to not set his shirt sleeves on fire and picks his nose at the grill... He isn't.  He's going to be let go, and if another star can't be found, mechanization and automation is going to come around.   With capitalism, somebody will figure out how to make it work without people.  Wages just have to rise to the point that the breakeven point is within an acceptable time period.


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## Ashful (Sep 18, 2019)

pjohnson said:


> Why do the ones that sit at a desk have the perception that union workers are lazy and unproductive.


I don’t think I ever said or implied that, I certainly didn’t mean to if I did. My issue is solely the act of collusion with your co-workers to hold your employer hostage for above market value wages and benefits, not any implication that union workers are any more or less lazy than a non-union worker. Stand on your own two feet, earn what your skills and experience are truly worth, or find a way to increase your worth. Pretty basic.

Also, don’t assume my criticism is primarily aimed at factory workers, I could actually understand the legitimacy of a union in some such settings, even if their role in creating safe working conditions is less than it was in the past. My primary gripe is professional unions, like those folks who work 9 months per year, have more holidays in those nine months than any other profession sees in a full year, gets the entire summer off, and continues to collude against the taxpayer for six-figure salaries.


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## Sawset (Sep 18, 2019)

Ashful said:


> the act of collusion with your co-workers to hold your employer hostage for above market value wages and benefits



I've never worked in a union.  The market here determines pay scales, work times, benefits etc.  
The vast majority of American workers also don't work in unions.
Why would I support unions or union workers for any reason simply because of the above quote.  
Unions - "less work more pay"
Ok, here you go, higher pay, benefits, vacation, the works. Happy?
Unions - "less work more pay"
Ok, here you go, ------
Unions - "less work more pay"
Ok, get the hell out of here, we're shutting it all down.  Examples are everywhere.


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## saewoody (Sep 18, 2019)

Ashful said:


> I don’t think I ever said or implied that, I certainly didn’t mean to if I did. My issue is solely the act of collusion with your co-workers to hold your employer hostage for above market value wages and benefits, not any implication that union workers are any more or less lazy than a non-union worker. Stand on your own two feet, earn what your skills and experience are truly worth, or find a way to increase your worth. Pretty basic.
> 
> Also, don’t assume my criticism is primarily aimed at factory workers, I could actually understand the legitimacy of a union in some such settings, even if their role in creating safe working conditions is less than it was in the past. My primary gripe is professional unions, like those folks who work 9 months per year, have more holidays in those nine months than any other profession sees in a full year, gets the entire summer off, and continues to collude against the taxpayer for six-figure salaries.



I only hope I will make six figures at some point! I have been teaching since 2001 and my first job paid a $29,500 salary. Yes, I make much more than that now, but not very close to six figures. I have plenty of complaints about the teacher’s union too; they seem to do more to protect the problem teacher than the excellent teacher. But for all the capitalist philosophers here, how do you measure the true “productivity” of the teacher and then compensate them fairly for it? One of the courses I’ve been teaching for almost 15 years is Economics and I still don’t have an answer to the question. Like anything in life, we don’t really always know something for sure until we walk in someone else’s shoes. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Highbeam (Sep 18, 2019)

pjohnson said:


> Why do the ones that sit at a desk have the perception that union workers are lazy and unproductive. I've worked at both union and non union large companies 50,000 plus employees and there are plenty of hard working union people. If the companies treated their employees the way they treat their executives there would be no need for unions.



Just to be clear, not all of us that sit at desks are highly paid executives and many desk sitters are in unions. Plenty of white collar folks that fall in the middle between labor and executive. I've also never been in a union, never been on strike, but I do believe that I've benefited from the fights won by unions.



Ashful said:


> My primary gripe is professional unions, like those folks who work 9 months per year, have more holidays in those nine months than any other profession sees in a full year, gets the entire summer off, and continues to collude against the taxpayer for six-figure salaries.



I'm pretty sure I know who you're talking about here. I agree. But.... the children!


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## Ashful (Sep 18, 2019)

saewoody said:


> how do you measure the true “productivity” of the teacher and then compensate them fairly for it?


I understand the point you’re making, but there are many metrics by which an employer (the school board) can gauge their employee (the teacher), including but not limited to standardized testing scores, peer and supervisory reviews, and many of the other mechanisms used to gauge the performance of any other professional.

As to the salary issue, the late-career teachers in my district make $88k - $97k. Given their 185 working days in our state, to the average 236 days of a salaried employee, their monthly rate is equivalent to $112k - $124k for a full-time worker.


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## bholler (Sep 18, 2019)

Ashful said:


> I understand the point you’re making, but there are many metrics by which an employer (the school board) can gauge their employee (the teacher), including but not limited to standardized testing scores, peer and supervisory reviews, and many of the other mechanisms used to gauge the performance of any other professional.
> 
> As to the salary issue, the late-career teachers in my district make $88k - $97k. Given their 185 working days in our state, to the average 236 days of a salaried employee, their monthly rate is equivalent to $112k - $124k for a full-time worker.


So you say people should better themselves so they can get better jobs.  That makes sense.  But then you complain that the very people that are there to help kids do that are over paid.  That doesn't make sense.  And do you have any idea how many hours good teachers put in over that time they work?  How many days in addition to that 236 they spend in continuing education?


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## SpaceBus (Sep 18, 2019)

Why should we expect people to work 40 hours a week to build the cars we drive if they aren't paid a living wage? This might lead to a serious labor reform. You can't expect everyone to "get a better job" or whatever, who will be left to build the things the tradesmen repair?


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## SpaceBus (Sep 18, 2019)

bholler said:


> So you say people should better themselves so they can get better jobs.  That makes sense.  But then you complain that the very people that are there to help kids do that are over paid.  That doesn't make sense.  And do you have any idea how many hours good teachers put in over that time they work?  How many days in addition to that 236 they spend in continuing education?



Not to mention most spend their own money to get classroom supplies, teaching aids, etc. Teachers are hardly compensated for dedicating their time to do something most parents refuse to do for any amount of money.


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## bholler (Sep 18, 2019)

Ashful said:


> I don’t think I ever said or implied that, I certainly didn’t mean to if I did. My issue is solely the act of collusion with your co-workers to hold your employer hostage for above market value wages and benefits, not any implication that union workers are any more or less lazy than a non-union worker. Stand on your own two feet, earn what your skills and experience are truly worth, or find a way to increase your worth. Pretty basic.
> 
> Also, don’t assume my criticism is primarily aimed at factory workers, I could actually understand the legitimacy of a union in some such settings, even if their role in creating safe working conditions is less than it was in the past. My primary gripe is professional unions, like those folks who work 9 months per year, have more holidays in those nine months than any other profession sees in a full year, gets the entire summer off, and continues to collude against the taxpayer for six-figure salaries.


Who says unions get paid over market value???    What makes you think what they are getting paid isn't market value and what nonunion people get paid is sub market value?  

You have clearly never worked in a factory or even as office staff for a large corporation.  Most don't get paid what their skills are worth.  Most don't get merit based wages.  You either do your job and get set anual wages or you don't do your job and get fired.  In most cases it doesn't matter if you do that job really well or if you are just competent.


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## begreen (Sep 18, 2019)

Ashful said:


> As to the salary issue, the late-career teachers in my district make $88k - $97k. Given their 185 working days in our state, to the average 236 days of a salaried employee, their monthly rate is equivalent to $112k - $124k for a full-time worker.


Is this Buck's county? If so, that's atypical. Is it much more expensive to live in that county? Have the voters chosen to pay teachers more there because they want to attract the cream of the crop and want more specialty and advanced classes?


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 18, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> Not to mention most spend their own money to get classroom supplies, teaching aids, etc. Teachers are hardly compensated for dedicating their time to do something most parents refuse to do for any amount of money.


Teachers are not the problem in this area, its the 15,    6  figure administrators they dont need for such a small town that sucks all the oxygen out of the budget. The teachers are low on the totem pole and start at around $15 an hour. (low 30s annually) About the same amount the unskilled burger flippers want. Our teachers are definitely underpaid by those standards


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 18, 2019)

The big problem with wages in america is we also have to compete on  a global scale with many countrys that operate at a much lower pay scale. Unless the disparity is corrected at the border with tarriffs or some other mechanism those (Mfg)jobs may be outsourced to foreign  low wage countries. As we have seen for the last few decades. The old UAW sent their share of plants out of the country.  Or to southern states.


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## Ashful (Sep 18, 2019)

bholler said:


> So you say people should better themselves so they can get better jobs.  That makes sense.  But then you complain that the very people that are there to help kids do that are over paid.  That doesn't make sense.  And do you have any idea how many hours good teachers put in over that time they work?  How many days in addition to that 236 they spend in continuing education?


Continuing education is part of many professional careers, nothing unique there.  And just like any profession, a few really work very hard.  Most I have known are not pulling any miraculous hours, no where near average for my own profession.  I have several friends who are teachers, one who is a principle.

And getting out of the factory has nothing to do with your third grade teacher being unionized or tenured.  In fact, I'd argue there's more likely to be a reverse relationship between the tenure leveraged by UNIONS, and quality of education!



bholler said:


> You have clearly never worked in a factory or even as office staff for a large corporation.


I have spent the last 25 years solely working in factories, it is what I do for a living.  I have worked for both large and small corporations.  My first factory job earned me $7.50 per hour as an assembler, and the second was salaried as a technician at $40k per year.  I worked up from there, going to school at night while I worked full time.  I spent a decade and a half in school, getting two degrees, working full-time thru more than ten of those years.  That’s not to toot my own horn, I had it easier than some of my classmates, I’m just saying that not everyone with an education got there the easy way. 



begreen said:


> Is this Buck's county? If so, that's atypical. Is it much more expensive to live in that county? Have the voters chosen to pay teachers more there because they want to attract the cream of the crop and want more specialty and advanced classes?


I averaged a few districts in the Philly burbs, including Bucks.  I don't really care what a teacher makes in Alabama or Washington, they're not paying my school taxes.  I tried to Google for median household income in my township and zip code, but got wildly conflicting data, so I'm not sure exactly how we compare to other areas.  Surely higher than the midwest or Maine, but also surely lower than coastal mid-Atlantic (NJ, NY, MD, DE), most of New England, or the west coast.

But all of this picking at nits is getting a little afar of the original point.  Why does anyone worth their salt need to collude with their coworkers, or even workers of another company, to extort higher wages from their employer?  If we want to open up the subject farther, I'd suggest tenure would be the next item of discussion, not my personal work history or local economics.


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## festerw (Sep 19, 2019)

Here's the issue as I see it.  The service industry has grown to the largest sector of employment, high skill service is easy to figure out, education, experience, etc.  Low skill service is hard, not many places will pay wait staff substantially more for 10 years of experience vs walking in the door, same goes for janitors, landscapers, etc.

Adjusted for inflation the minimum wage is less now than it was in 1968 when it peaked.  Adjusted it would be 11.80/hr.

At current minimum you'll have a salary of 15,080/year, the cheapest apartment in my area will run you 4800/year, health insurance average is 5000 for a single, average food cost is 3000/year, average utilities are $2000/year.  After all that you have roughly $300 left over for the year, before taxes.

So is it fair that maybe somebody likes showing up for work everyday waiting tables, mowing lawns, or cleaning has to work 2 or 3 jobs just to survive?  

Yea I know "they can get more education and get a better job"  but if they LIKE their job why should they HAVE TO  and take a crap shoot on moving into a job they don't like just to get more money? 

Long story short if the unions can get a major foothold like they used to have and force wages to go higher for everyone why is that a bad thing?  I'll also say that if some employers treated their employees well they wouldn't have to worry about them unionizing, happy employees are more productive than unhappy every day of the week.


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 19, 2019)

begreen said:


> . I read the strike is mostly about temp workers.



Out of roughly 3,600 employees at the Tennessee plant, around 200 are temporary,


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## lsucet (Sep 19, 2019)

bholler said:


> So you say people should better themselves so they can get better jobs.  That makes sense.  But then you complain that the very people that are there to help kids do that are over paid.  That doesn't make sense.  And do you have any idea how many hours good teachers put in over that time they work?  How many days in addition to that 236 they spend in continuing education?


Many schools now a days are just like daycares. Not all the teachers go the extra mile like you can think. Their answer to kids questions are: Google it.  They just send kids home with assignments and they have to do their own research plus us, the parents, dedicate time to teach them like we are the teachers. Things have been changing a lot over the years.  I can go all day and tell you many reason why I think they are over paid but let's leave it at that. I always paid and still for everything my three kids need.


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## Ashful (Sep 19, 2019)

lsucet said:


> Many schools now a days are just like daycares. Not all the teachers go the extra mile like you can think. They answer to kids questions are: Google it.


I’m sure this happens, but I suspect this is rare. My kids teachers and school have been mostly great. But I still don’t understand why they need to be unionized, or why an elementary school teacher needs the protection of tenure.


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 19, 2019)

Skilled professions(non union) in a free market mostly seem to set their own level . The hard part is trying to figure out what is a fair wage for the unskilled . I keep hearing "how can people support a family on minimum wage"?   The simple answer is ,you cant!  Its going to be a big problem going forward  as automation takes many of  those jobs.


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## Sawset (Sep 19, 2019)

Seasoned Oak said:


> The hard part is trying to figure out what is a fair wage for the unskilled .  I keep hearing "how can people support a family on minimum wage"? The simple answer is ,you cant!


Years ago either there were skilled tradesmen, apprentices, or laborers.   If old enough and able, they got in and started learning, and kept learning.  If one had a trade, he had an estate.  If not, then it's a one room apartment somewhere with a dozen buddies in the same boat.  Plenty of incentive to move out of mom and dads place and get on their own.  I can think of many family members who struggled for a long time to "make it", on the "job" working at all hours.  Who said we should feel so entitled to think it should be different now.


----------



## bholler (Sep 19, 2019)

lsucet said:


> Many schools now a days are just like daycares. Not all the teachers go the extra mile like you can think. Their answer to kids questions are: Google it.  They just send kids home with assignments and they have to do their own research plus us, the parents, dedicate time to teach them like we are the teachers. Things have been changing a lot over the years.  I can go all day and tell you many reason why I think they are over paid but let's leave it at that. I always paid and still for everything my three kids need.


That depends on the school district.  There are ones in our area that are like that and ones like ours where the majority of teachers are pretty good.  And guess which ones pay more?


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## begreen (Sep 19, 2019)

bholler said:


> That depends on the school district.  There are ones in our area that are like that and ones like ours where the majority of teachers are pretty good.  And guess which ones pay more?











						What the average classroom teacher earns in every Pa. public school district
					

The highest salaries were in two Pennsylvania counties: Bucks and Montgomery.




					whyy.org


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## SpaceBus (Sep 19, 2019)

Sawset said:


> Years ago either there were skilled tradesmen, apprentices, or laborers.   If old enough and able, they got in and started learning, and kept learning.  If one had a trade, he had an estate.  If not, then it's a one room apartment somewhere with a dozen buddies in the same boat.  Plenty of incentive to move out of mom and dads place and get on their own.  I can think of many family members who struggled for a long time to "make it", on the "job" working at all hours.  Who said we should feel so entitled to think it should be different now.



Isn't the whole point of this society we live in to make things easier and better? Why keep things difficult just because you had it tough? The wood stove was made so you'd have to spend less time working on a tedious and energy intensive task. Should we all suffer with open fireplaces because our ancestors had to do it?


----------



## festerw (Sep 19, 2019)

Sawset said:


> Years ago either there were skilled tradesmen, apprentices, or laborers.   If old enough and able, they got in and started learning, and kept learning.  If one had a trade, he had an estate.  If not, then it's a one room apartment somewhere with a dozen buddies in the same boat.  Plenty of incentive to move out of mom and dads place and get on their own.  I can think of many family members who struggled for a long time to "make it", on the "job" working at all hours.  Who said we should feel so entitled to think it should be different now.



There still is in some industries and a lot of them are unionized.  But have you ever met a tradesmen waiter or custodian?  The service industry has changed dramatically in the last 50 years.

There's also a large gap between struggling and being an accident or illness (medical, work related, or other) away from being homeless.


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## begreen (Sep 19, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> Isn't the whole point of this society we live in to make things easier and better?


That qualification has a broad range of meanings depending on how one looks at it. Easier can be good and it can be bad if it leads to cheaper, more disposable solutions instead of well-crafted long-lasting ones. Easier can also lead to slovenliness. What do most folks do with more spare time? Some here do gardening etc., but most seem to watch tv, watch cat videos and argue on the internet.  What is better? We garden even though it's much easier to just buy stuff. But this is our exercise and health program. It is more work but provides us with better quality food and hopefully health.


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## EatenByLimestone (Sep 19, 2019)

When I was young and just starting out, college and just after, dollars were just trickling in.  Bills still had to get paid.

I got a roommate.  


I remember a friend in college had a roommate who literally rented the closet beneath their stairs for $50/mo.  I thought it was an awesome idea, and he always had beer money.


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## Ashful (Sep 19, 2019)

begreen said:


> What the average classroom teacher earns in every Pa. public school district
> 
> 
> The highest salaries were in two Pennsylvania counties: Bucks and Montgomery.
> ...


Hah... well there we go.  I'm paying for it.


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## begreen (Sep 19, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Hah... well there we go.  I'm paying for it.


Sounds like your neighbors chose this, but I am not sure.  Your implication appears to be that unions forced this. Is that so or is this a voter choice in your county?


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## Ashful (Sep 19, 2019)

begreen said:


> Sounds like your neighbors chose this, but I am not sure.  Your implication appears to be that unions forced this. Is that so or is this a voter choice in your county?


I'll have to be honest and say I don't know all of the details, but I've lived thru numerous school strikes in our district, one that seemed to last for months.  From the outside looking it, it looks like unions pushing the cause, and voters succombing to just wanting their kids back in school.


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## begreen (Sep 19, 2019)

Strikes are a lot lower in my rural district, in spite of our teachers getting paid less, but we have had some big issues in our state too. Without understanding what the issues were that drove the long strike in your district it's hard to comment. Can you provide a link to info that really long strike? Was this connected with contracts expiring?

When I think of major, long teacher strikes I think of West Virginia last year and Kansas where they were quite justified.


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## SpaceBus (Sep 21, 2019)

begreen said:


> That qualification has a broad range of meanings depending on how one looks at it. Easier can be good and it can be bad if it leads to cheaper, more disposable solutions instead of well-crafted long-lasting ones. Easier can also lead to slovenliness. What do most folks do with more spare time? Some here do gardening etc., but most seem to watch tv, watch cat videos and argue on the internet.  What is better? We garden even though it's much easier to just buy stuff. But this is our exercise and health program. It is more work but provides us with better quality food and hopefully health.



Of course it does, but in the context of the conversation I'm saying that we shouldn't have to work like slaves to survive. It's absurd to force people to work horrible jobs for such small amounts of money. Anyone should be able to live a happy life and provide for a family while working 40 hrs a week.


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## EatenByLimestone (Sep 21, 2019)

It would be nice if everybody could have a cushy job and live comfortably,  but it will never be that way.  Each person has different abilities, both mentally and physically.  These abilities or lack of abilities often help choose our path.

I've always found Forest Gump an awesome story.  He wasnt bright, and was disabled, but through his spirit and never giving up, he kept coming out on top.    

His is not a common story, but there are plenty of inspirational rags to riches story's around.  When I was working in the banks I saw plenty of comfortable older folks who never made a big pay check, but they had the discipline to live below their means and save.


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## SpaceBus (Sep 21, 2019)

EatenByLimestone said:


> It would be nice if everybody could have a cushy job and live comfortably,  but it will never be that way.  Each person has different abilities, both mentally and physically.  These abilities or lack of abilities often help choose our path.
> 
> I've always found Forest Gump an awesome story.  He wasnt bright, and was disabled, but through his spirit and never giving up, he kept coming out on top.
> 
> His is not a common story, but there are plenty of inspirational rags to riches story's around.  When I was working in the banks I saw plenty of comfortable older folks who never made a big pay check, but they had the discipline to live below their means and save.



Those old folks also had a stronger economy and a much different life thank folks have now. The wealth holders in this country could stand to lose a few tenths of a percent in profit to pay their employees a living wage. I don't think it's asking for much for a human to be able to pursue happiness with 40 hrs a week of labor. Wages have been stagnant or declining for years. It's absolutely possible for everyone to live comfortably, but the 1% doesn't want to lose any power or wealth to make that happen. There are even enough vacant bank owned homes all over the country to house every single homeless person. But that would mean someone got a free house and someone that worked for it didn't. That part is why we can't have universal living conditions or a decent wage.

Edit: also, the real life statistic is that very few entrepreneurs become wealthy from rags. So while the Forrest Gump story is the quintessential American dream, that dream is actually a nightmare. It's extremely hard to leave your social class in this country if you are 100% able bodied, much less disabled.


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## Ashful (Sep 21, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> It's absurd to force people to work horrible jobs for such small amounts of money.



This is one of the few countries in the entire history of world governments, that has never forced any citizen to work a horrible job. Learn your history.  



SpaceBus said:


> Those old folks also had a stronger economy...


Holy crap, where to even start? Anyone in their 80’s today was born during the great depression, and lived thru WW2. The 1970’s were horrendous for anyone in manufacturing, followed by 1980’s stagflation and 19% mortgages, during all of which the average blue collar got a lot poorer. It’s awful tough to raise a family and pay that 19% mortgage in 1984, when your manufacturing plant laid off all the workers in 1976. Don’t try to argue that the economy was doing these folks any great favor, during those years. By comparison, our economy is doing fantastic the last three years.


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## EatenByLimestone (Sep 21, 2019)

In Dec of 99 I signed the papers and put down money on my 1st house.  My rate was 9.5% on a 30 fixed. 

I wish rates were as low as they are now!


I know plenty of people who grew up with nothing and now do quite well.  My wife's family left Vietnam after Saigon fell, spent a year in Malaysia as refugees, then split up between here, Australia. And Canada.

They are all very hard working, disciplined, and doing well.   Well, except for her brother who got his law degree, practiced for a bit, then went back to school to be a Dr.   He's more than a bit useless, but every family has one of them.

That family isn't an outlier.  Many immigrant families do this facing incredible odds.  

There's an eastern European guy that owns a gas station that I often fill up at.  He's always there.  I've never seen an employee.  I asked him if he ever gets a day off.  He said no, he has to be at the station.   His family will do just fine.

I'm not going to say it's easy to climb out of poverty, but far from impossible and much easier here than elsewhere in the world.


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## SpaceBus (Sep 21, 2019)

Believe what you want to believe, but 50,000 UAW workers, thousands of nurses, and thousands more all over the world aren't on strike for nothing. 

By the way, everyone is forced to work, because it's illegal to be homeless. If you don't want to pay a mortgage and work a job, you are considered an illegal. Nobody asked to be born into this world, but you damn well better pay!


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## EatenByLimestone (Sep 21, 2019)

40 hour work week!   Pfft, what is that?   I dont know a single entrepreneur who only worked 40 hrs a week while building the business.  

Maybe they can cut back when they have enough other people working for them.


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## Ashful (Sep 21, 2019)

EatenByLimestone said:


> In Dec of 99 I signed the papers and put down money on my 1st house. My rate was 9.5% on a 30 fixed.


Why so high? I did 30 year fixed at 6.625% in 1998 and 5.000% for 15 year fixed in 2005. I may be misremembering, but I thought rates were running 6.00 - 6.25% all thru 1999.

I think my present rate is 1.875% on 15 year fixed. 



EatenByLimestone said:


> 40 hour work week! Pfft, what is that? I dont know a single entrepreneur who only worked 40 hrs a week while building the business.


Exactly. Lazy folks can sit around and malign the wealthy, but this is what it often takes.  I averaged roughly 65 hours per week thru my 20’s, and above 50 hours per week in my 30’s. Anyone lobbying for a 40 hour work week at that age is not aiming very high, in their ambition.


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## johneh (Sep 21, 2019)

The only thing I ever got from a Union was the loss of my Job 
because the UNION asked for more than the Business could pay 
Will never work in a Union Shop again


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## begreen (Sep 21, 2019)

EatenByLimestone said:


> 40 hour work week! Pfft, what is that? I dont know a single entrepreneur who only worked 40 hrs a week while building the business.


Who is talking about entrepreneurs? That is what? one in a hundred or thousand? This ignores most of the working class. It's kind of condescending don't you think? Most of what we enjoy is on the backs of these people. You know, the ones that deliver the groceries and mail and keep the shelves stocked? The ones that make the tools we use in our shops and build the cars we drive. The ones that care for the ill and infirmed. These people have families and often put them first above all else including material values. 

FWIW, I worked with a team of 20+ engineers. We made a conscious effort to work smarter so that we didn't have to work nights and weekends and could have more family time. And it worked in spite of tight deadlines and external pressures.


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 21, 2019)

begreen said:


> Who is talking about entrepreneurs?


I think the point EBL is trying to make is sometimes the working class can better their situation by putting in some overtime vs walking a picket line, especially if they have no other skill to offer than assembly line work. I consider myself an entrepreneur as well as non college degree working class ,even though ill never make the kind of money most members here enjoy, having  the skill of spending it well and living a better life than average which is the other half of the income equation. Plus you appear to be  making the argument that people should be paid more because they have families or other obligations which is irrelevant to what they should be paid.


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## EatenByLimestone (Sep 21, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Why so high? I did 30 year fixed at 6.625% in 1998 and 5.000% for 15 year fixed in 2005.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that's what rates were running at that time?   I had good credit, but might have been in a higher risk class.   6 months out of college, making beans.  Really small beans.


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## EatenByLimestone (Sep 21, 2019)

begreen said:


> Who is talking about entrepreneurs? That is what? one in a hundred or thousand? This ignores most of the working class. It's kind of condescending don't you think? Most of what we enjoy is on the backs of these people. You know, the ones that deliver the groceries and mail and keep the shelves stocked? The ones that make the tools we use in our shops and build the cars we drive. The ones that care for the ill and infirmed. These people have families and often put them first above all else including material values.
> 
> FWIW, I worked with a team of 20+ engineers. We made a conscious effort to work smarter so that we didn't have to work nights and weekends and could have more family time. And it worked in spite of tight deadlines and external pressures.


I thought I'd read it above somewhere.  Oops.

I think there are more entrepreneurs than we think.  A teenager mowing a lawn is an entrepreneur.    A guy selling an extra cord of wood here and there is.   I used to do services on fish tanks before I ever thought of starting a business.

The biggest thing the guys who have small operations going for them is lack of overhead.   Once you have a separate office, employees, consider advertising,  etc, overhead starts to shoot up.


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## begreen (Sep 21, 2019)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I think the point EBL is trying to make is sometimes the working class can better their situation by putting in some overtime vs walking a picket line, especially if they have no other skill to offer than assembly line work. I consider myself an entrepreneur as well as non college degree working class ,even though ill never make the kind of money most members here enjoy, having  the skill of spending it well and living a better life than average which is the other half of the income equation. Plus you appear to be  making the argument that people should be paid more because they have families or other obligations which is irrelevant to what they should be paid.


Folks don't like going on strike, especially if they are not paid. It's not fun to have to strike standing out in all sorts of weather. If people don't earn enough to live and pay rent then they will be forced to move. That happened in CT where we lived. Young people moved on. Now the restaurants and stores are boarded up and everyone has to travel elsewhere to eat, shop, etc..

Given the broad definition of an entrepreneur, I can agree that there may be more than one out of 100. INC. says there are about 27 million in the US which surprised me. Apparently this is a record high for the US.  I had a paper route and my own business for a while. I also know a lot of people that took steady jobs right out of college.  Eventually, I took a corporate job both because of the great people I got to work with, and also because I had a child with a serious medical condition and needed stability in health care plus education costs. Predictability when one has a high mortgage and raising a family can be a good thing.


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## EatenByLimestone (Sep 21, 2019)

So they were making enough to live, then were forced to go on strike.   Had to move.  Now the town had to close all the shops?  Way to go union! 
In college I worked at UPS.  The Teamsters forced a strike.   I never went back either.


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## begreen (Sep 21, 2019)

EatenByLimestone said:


> So they were making enough to live, then were forced to go on strike.   Had to move.  Now the town had to close all the shops?  Way to go union!
> In college I worked at UPS.  The Teamsters forced a strike.   I never went back either.


No, the local work was not union. Local jobs just paid poorly. I guess some moved to union jobs in areas with more population and factories. Not an uncommon story for rural areas.


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## begreen (Sep 21, 2019)

The implication here seems to be that there is no case for unions. History demonstrates there is a need for empowering the individual in an exploitive system. All companies and bosses are not enlightened wonderful caring people. There are some that will drive people beyond reasonable means until they are burned out and then discard them for a fresh crop. This has been going on for the history of humanity and certainly since capitalism started. Unions form because of a need. They have been responsible for getting child, safety, and labor laws passed so that now unions are less necessary. With these laws, the exploitive nature of man would return to squeeze every ounce out of its workers. We have seen this time and again. Only now it is in some third world country that has much more lax labor laws.  As Adam Smith pointed out, humans are selfish, greedy animals. 

This doesn't mean that there are not great employers in the country. Quite the contrary, they outnumber the bad ones. Most of the time there is no need for unions. But when a company or industry puts profit far above human life and dignity then something needs to change. Unions empower the individual to have a larger voice which is necessary sometimes to correct wrongs.


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## EatenByLimestone (Sep 21, 2019)

Capitalism says, if the boss is an a-hole, find a different employer.

My last employer you'd to say if I didnt like how he ran his company I could start my own.   I know of 4 or 5 companies he's  spawned.  I'm not sure if he still says that, lol.

I'd like to point out that all unions are not enlightened either.   They've committed just as many thuggish acts as employers.  

Is it any surprise that Jimmy Hoffa,  jr leads the Teamsters?


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## bholler (Sep 21, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Why so high? I did 30 year fixed at 6.625% in 1998 and 5.000% for 15 year fixed in 2005. I may be misremembering, but I thought rates were running 6.00 - 6.25% all thru 1999.
> 
> I think my present rate is 1.875% on 15 year fixed.
> 
> ...


I am not willing to work over 45 or so hours I have a family and I want to be there for them.   That doesn't make me lazy.  I work my ass off those hours so I can be home to get my kids off the bus every day


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## bholler (Sep 21, 2019)

EatenByLimestone said:


> Capitalism says, if the boss is an a-hole, find a different employer.
> 
> My last employer you'd to say if I didnt like how he ran his company I could start my own.   I know of 4 or 5 companies he's  spawned.  I'm not sure if he still says that, lol.
> 
> ...


Saying just go find another job is all well and good but there are plenty of areas where there aren't many jobs.  Or the jobs that are available are pretty much all in one industry.  So if that industry pays crap it doesn't matter if you change jobs.


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## begreen (Sep 21, 2019)

EatenByLimestone said:


> I'd like to point out that all unions are not enlightened either. They've committed just as many thuggish acts as employers.


Yes, that's true. Like Smith said, we are greedy selfish creatures.


bholler said:


> Saying just go find another job is all well and good but there are plenty of areas where there aren't many jobs. Or the jobs that are available are pretty much all in one industry. So if that industry pays crap it doesn't matter if you change jobs.


That was my attitude and the attitude of my team too. We were super productive and got 50 hrs/ week work done in 40 by working smarter as a tight team.  We worked hard, but made it clear that we had a life beyond work. Their support helped me out a lot and in return I became very good at what I did.


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 21, 2019)

Most of us are somewhat in favor if unions, but(some) put their employer out of business.  Or in the case of public employee unions pile their demands on the general taxpaying population regardless of their ability to pay . They do have  a dark side.


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## bholler (Sep 21, 2019)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Most of us are somewhat in favor if unions, but(some) put their employer out of business.  Or in the case of public employee unions pile their demands on the general taxpaying population regardless of their ability to pay . They do have  a dark side.


Yes of course they have their problems.  But to say that collective bargaining is extortion is unfair.  It is the only way employees have any real influence


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## Ashful (Sep 21, 2019)

bholler said:


> I am not willing to work over 45 or so hours I have a family and I want to be there for them. That doesn't make me lazy. I work my ass off those hours so I can be home to get my kids off the bus every day



I was talking about your younger and singler hungry years, bholler. Work your ass off when you’re young, so you don’t need to do it when you’re old.

I had one job in my early 20’s where we’d often work until 11pm, and be back in the shop at 8am. In my late 20’s I scored a non-exempt salaried position, and literally doubled my salary with overtime every month (67 hours per week with 1.5x time after 40), for about two years before HR figured out what I was taking home and realized they could hire another employee for 40 hours on what they were paying for my last 27.

BTW... aren’t you one of those evil “entrepreneurs”?


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## bholler (Sep 21, 2019)

Ashful said:


> I was talking about your younger and singler hungry years, bholler. Work your ass off when you’re young, so you don’t need to do it when you’re old.
> 
> I had one job in my early 20’s where we’d often work until 11pm, and be back in the shop at 8am. In my late 20’s I scored a non-exempt salaried position, and literally doubled my salary with overtime every month (67 hours per week with 1.5x time after 40), for about two years before HR figured out what I was taking home and realized they could hire another employee for 40 hours on what they were paying for my last 27.
> 
> BTW... aren’t you one of those evil “entrepreneurs”?


Well no not exactly an entrepreneur in this business but I was in my last one I sold.  And I sold the cabinet business because it kept me out of the house to many hours.  That and my father needed help.

But even then before kids I wouldn't be in the shop more than 60 hours.  And wouldn't let my guys do it either.  Those weeks were rare also because production and safety go down so much when you get over 50 hours.  

You also forget many companies don't allow much over time.  Even though it is actually cheaper than adding another employee the productivity drops off to fast.


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## SpaceBus (Sep 22, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Why so high? I did 30 year fixed at 6.625% in 1998 and 5.000% for 15 year fixed in 2005. I may be misremembering, but I thought rates were running 6.00 - 6.25% all thru 1999.
> 
> I think my present rate is 1.875% on 15 year fixed.
> 
> ...


Why should you be so proud to work yourself to death, sacrifice precious time with your family, and generally destroy your body just to live? 

If I wanted to work myself to death I'd rather go back to the Neolithic age or before. What's the point of all this technology and "societal advancement" if we are just going to make people work to death in order to live? 

Also, most people don't work 40 hours despite that being the qualification for full time. Working over 40 hrs a week should be as noxious as the idea of unions to some of you.


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## SpaceBus (Sep 22, 2019)

EatenByLimestone said:


> Capitalism says, if the boss is an a-hole, find a different employer.
> 
> My last employer you'd to say if I didnt like how he ran his company I could start my own.   I know of 4 or 5 companies he's  spawned.  I'm not sure if he still says that, lol.
> 
> ...


Very few employers shirk the opportunity to take advantage of employees. It is more profitable to pay your employees less money, and there are few protections in place. Sure, unions might have done a few bad things, but by and large the decisions made by most employers only benefit the folks at the top that get all the profits.

We have a holiday to commemorate and remember labor reform that created the weekend and a 40 hr work week. Hopefully we have another labor reform to bring things back on track.

I've read for many years the "get a better job" advice, but there generally aren't any better jobs. The "good" jobs have been snatched up and turnover is low when employee satisfaction is high. When faced with the choice of going hungry or working for an poophead, what will you pick?


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## bholler (Sep 22, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> Very few employers shirk the opportunity to take advantage of employees. It is more profitable to pay your employees less money, and there are few protections in place. Sure, unions might have done a few bad things, but by and large the decisions made by most employers only benefit the folks at the top that get all the profits.
> 
> We have a holiday to commemorate and remember labor reform that created the weekend and a 40 hr work week. Hopefully we have another labor reform to bring things back on track.
> 
> ...


I agree with what you are saying but I think you are exaggerating a little by saying most employers are that way.  There are allot who care about their employees.


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## Ashful (Sep 22, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> Very few employers shirk the opportunity to take advantage of employees.


Didn’t you previously state you were medically retired in your 30’s, and that you were in the military prior to that? So, from what decades of private industry work experience are you developing these opinions about employers?

Employers generally want to attract the best talent at a price that allows them to be profitable. They are not evil overlords, they’re just trying to do business. If you put yourself in a position to help them do that business, you will be in good shape. If you do not, well then...


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## festerw (Sep 22, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Employers generally want to attract the best talent at a price that allows them to be profitable. They are not evil overlords, they’re just trying to do business. If you put yourself in a position to help them do that business, you will be in good shape. If you do not, well then...



For salaried workers sure, but in my experience as an hourly worker the only thing a place with more than 500 workers cares about is getting labor for cheap.  They'll go through 30 workers for a position if it means not having to pay $1 more an hour, they'll also cap your hours at 30/week so they won't have to pay more for healthcare.


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## EatenByLimestone (Sep 22, 2019)

It's not illegal to be stupid.  That turnover is going to cost them much more than that extra dollar.  


Penny wise, pound foolish.


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 22, 2019)

According to GM the UAW workers are already making $12 an hour over the industry standard in the US.  How much higher can they go and still remain profitable. Yes GM had a good year last year ,and with that offset a lot of bad years. And the stockholders and bond holders want to get paid as well. More of the  compensation for the general employees should be tied to stock prices to make a direct connection between profits and pay. No lessons learned from the old GM vs UAW.


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## SpaceBus (Sep 22, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Didn’t you previously state you were medically retired in your 30’s, and that you were in the military prior to that? So, from what decades of private industry work experience are you developing these opinions about employers?
> 
> Employers generally want to attract the best talent at a price that allows them to be profitable. They are not evil overlords, they’re just trying to do business. If you put yourself in a position to help them do that business, you will be in good shape. If you do not, well then...



There are many industries where this is not true. I have worked in the civilian sector both before and after the military. Most employers don't need the best and brightest, they just need a person. You are in an extremely skilled sector. Most of the jobs in America are unskilled.


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## SpaceBus (Sep 22, 2019)

festerw said:


> For salaried workers sure, but in my experience as an hourly worker the only thing a place with more than 500 workers cares about is getting labor for cheap.  They'll go through 30 workers for a position if it means not having to pay $1 more an hour, they'll also cap your hours at 30/week so they won't have to pay more for healthcare.



This is the brutal truth of most jobs in America.


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 22, 2019)

Unless you have been both an employer and an employee you have only seen this from one side of the equation. Being an employer really opens your eyes to the other side of the coin. Make payroll, pay endless bills ,suffer losses, work long hours for nothing ,then come back and make judgements.


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## SpaceBus (Sep 22, 2019)

I didn't say every employer is exploiting employees, just most of them. Small businesses account for not very many jobs at large. Maybe in small towns a local business can support several families, but this is not the norm. I think I read the auto industry accounts for only 6.5% of american jobs. The employers that post on the hearth forum are probably less than a hundredth of a percent.


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## Ashful (Sep 22, 2019)

Guys, I think you’re taking offense at perceived implications, and missing my point. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with being a laborer, or a teacher. Do what makes you happy, and choose your own trade-offs. Despite SpaceBus’s claims to the contrary, no one is forcing you to choose any one path over another. 

My sole issue is the collusion with your workers, whether called legal or not, to hold an employer hostage for wages higher than your choices would have you expect. Stand on your own two feet, folks.

.. and with that, I’m out. Have fun with your whining about life’s circumstances, I have no interest in that.


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## SpaceBus (Sep 22, 2019)

I'm not taking offense, I'm saying that everyone is underpaid, across the board. Not just laborers, skilled labor is also underpaid. You speak about "expectations", but what does that mean? You say that people should just "help themselves" but there just aren't enough skilled jobs for every single human. Cars still have to be made, burgers flipped, and floors mopped. Unless you want chattel slavery or robots, you will have to pay those people a living wage. If we follow the "don't increase wages/reform labor/etc" train of thought, you end up with folks on government assistance. What happens when you cut those welfare programs? Folks dying on the streets. This literally happened in this country until labor reform and welfare programs were instituted. Perhaps you forgot about those folks born in and before the depression. Should we just go back to children running fiber mills?  Let's just eat the poor people and replace them with robots!


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 22, 2019)

No one im america is dying in the streets due to being overworked ,your way more likely to die from obesity.  From an employer point of view everyone is over paid. Of course the employees see it  differently.  The govt dont set a minimun wage for employers. Hell you can start a hundred business that lose money and the Govt dont care about you ,wheres my right to a minimum wage ,a living wage or whatever you want to call it. I have a family too .  What employees have is a guarantee that they will take a fixed minimum amount home every week ,employers have NO SUCH guarantee. Sometimes my living wage is ZERO or less than zero.  So theres 2 ways to look at this issue and many other issues.


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## begreen (Sep 22, 2019)

The purchasing power for this wage earner has stayed pretty flat, while medical costs, school, taxes, cars, rent all have steadily increased to keep track with the real inflation and value of the dollar. This has not been the case for the wealthiest.

_After adjusting for inflation, however, today’s average hourly wage has just about the same purchasing power it did in 1978, following a long slide in the 1980s and early 1990s and bumpy, inconsistent growth since then. In fact, in real terms average hourly earnings peaked more than 45 years ago: The $4.03-an-hour rate recorded in January 1973 had the same purchasing power that $23.68 would today...

Meanwhile, wage gains have gone largely to the highest earners. Since 2000, usual weekly wages have risen 3% (in real terms) among workers in the lowest tenth of the earnings distribution and 4.3% among the lowest quarter. But among people in the top tenth of the distribution, real wages have risen a cumulative 15.7%, to $2,112 a week – nearly five times the usual weekly earnings of the bottom tenth ($426)...

Sluggish and uneven wage growth has been cited as a key factor behind widening income inequality in the United States._









						For most U.S. workers, real wages have barely budged in decades
					

Adjusted for inflation, today's average hourly wage has about as much purchasing power as it did in 1978. Most wage increases have gone to the highest earners.




					www.pewresearch.org
				




During this same time period here is what happened with corporate profits.


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## begreen (Sep 22, 2019)

Back on the subject of teachers, Forbes had an interesting article this week. One in four teachers puts in a 60 hr week, and it has been this way for the past 25 yrs. 









						One In Four Teachers Works 60-Plus Hours A Week
					

The working week has remained broadly stable for teachers over the past quarter century, suggesting that attempts to cut workload have so far failed.




					www.forbes.com


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## pjohnson (Sep 22, 2019)

I for one love unions, I work in a heavily unionized industry. The company I work for is non union and treats us very good. Every year they they take the average of the unionized companies and give us a raise and pay us more to keep the union out. Plus a very generous profit sharing that pays us 4 or 5 times what the union guys get for profit sharing.  So I say thanks union guys hope ya get a big raise.


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 22, 2019)

pjohnson said:


> I for one love unions, I work in a heavily unionized industry. The company I work for is non union and treats us very good.hope ya get a big raise.


They take the money the unions are soaking out of the company and give it too the employees instead. Good policy.


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 22, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> , you will have to pay those people a living wage. If we follow the "don't increase wages/reform labor/etc" train of thought, you end up with folks on government assistance. What happens when you cut those welfare programs? Folks dying on the streets. This literally happened in this country until labor reform and welfare programs were instituted. Perhaps you forgot about those folks born in and before the depression. Should we just go back to children running fiber mills?


I was born into a poor family in the Appalachians mountains. I know what poor is. And there nothing like it in most of america today most especially in the very same town. Why ? because there is so much opportunity. Its everywhere if you want to see it.   All My siblings including myself are many times wealthier than my parents were. Not because of unions , or Govt handouts.   Because we all worked  cuz we didnt want to live poor like  we did as children.  We saw all that opportunity and grabbed it.  Of course we could have blamed our plight on society like so many and cried the victim and until now still be poor and complaining. That opportunity is still there in every town if you want to see it ,or you can see dispair depending on how you look at it.


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## pjohnson (Sep 22, 2019)

Why shouldn’t wealthy corporations be forced to pay a living wage? Let’s pick on Walmart not known for high pay. Each Walmart store is estimated to cost taxpayers 1 to 1.75 million to take care of Walmart’s low paid workers, food stamps, Medicare, housing assistance and other government programs. Thats 6.2 billion we pay to support Walmart. Meanwhile the Walton sons and daughters are the richest family in America worth 136 billion, worth more then 43 percent of the population combined. The fast food industry employees use another 7 billion in government programs. If wealthy corporations were forced to pay a living wage the rich could have had a bigger tax cut. I know they aren’t cutting my taxes.


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 22, 2019)

Many people  qualify for Govt programs simply because they have a lot of kids and no skills so of course they are on Govt programs to make up for the income gap between their wage with no  skills and the size family they chose to support.  The same person with no children may not be on nor qualify for Govt programs.  Wall mart isnt going to pay you more cuz you have a big family but the Govt will.  Is that a wise decision?  lots of differing opinions on that. Perhaps walmart should not be getting those sweetheart deals of no property taxes for 10 years where communities fall over each other to lure them in,like they did in our town. The biggest beef i have with wall mart is they buy everything from china. Perhaps some hefty import tariffs  would offset all those govt programs their employees  are on.


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## begreen (Sep 22, 2019)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I was born into a poor family in the Appalachians mountains. I know what poor is. And there nothing like it in most of america today most especially in the very same town. Why ? because there is so much opportunity. Its everywhere if you want to see it.   All My siblings including myself are many times wealthier than my parents were. Not because of unions , or Govt handouts.   Because we all worked  cuz we didnt want to live poor like  we did as children.  We saw all that opportunity and grabbed it.  Of course we could have blamed our plight on society like so many and cried the victim and until now still be poor and complaining. That opportunity is still there in every town if you want to see it ,or you can see dispair depending on how you look at it.


What you have done is admirable and my guess is that your parents helped encourage you in getting ahead. But the balance of wealth has changed a lot, at least we were young lads. Example, I put myself through college with a Basic Education Opportunity Grant. My tuition at state college was $600 per semester which I paid for with a part-time job while in school. Try doing that today. Our rent in Seattle when we were starting out in 1980 was $115/month. Try finding anything like that in Seattle for ten times that amount today.  Kids are starting out in life with more debt than ever.
Going back to rural towns, I have been in parts of Appalachia where there is little hope of getting ahead unless you move out. There are no jobs and folks get by, some have no education to speak of. Some are lucky to have electricity in some areas as unbelievable as that may seem. It's hard to think of getting ahead when you are dealing with the depressing fact of where the next meal is coming from.


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## bholler (Sep 22, 2019)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Many people  qualify for Govt programs simply because they have a lot of kids and no skills so of course they are on Govt programs to make up for the income gap between their wage with no  skills and the size family they chose to support.  The same person with no children may not be on nor qualify for Govt programs.  Wall mart isnt going to pay you more cuz you have a big family but the Govt will.  Is that a wise decision?  lots of differing opinions on that. Perhaps walmart should not be getting those sweetheart deals of no property taxes for 10 years where communities fall over each other to lure them in,like they did in our town. The biggest beef i have with wall mart is they buy everything from china. Perhaps some hefty import tariffs  would offset all those govt programs their employees  are on.


No they would just raise prices and cut employment costs any way they could to maintain their corporate profits.  Tariffs are paid for by the working people.   I do agree about not giving them tax breaks though.


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 22, 2019)

My parents encouraged it by setting an example of what we didnt want from life. Nothing else. They lived the life they chose and we chose a much different path . Also we didnt rely on Govt handouts to do it although we all would have qualified. My point is if your going to be successful it will be 99% your effort alone.  Dont blame anyone else if it doesnt happen.  But you can blame student loans,lots of free subsidized Govt money for jacking up the price tuition ,same thing with Health Care.  The Govt does its best to destroy the free market at every turn.


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 22, 2019)

bholler said:


> No they would just raise prices and cut employment costs any way they could to maintain their corporate profits.  Tariffs are paid for by the working people.   I do agree about not giving them tax breaks though.


Walmarts whole business model is buy things from china for 25c and sell it here for $10. If anything ever happens to prevent that the whole company will collapse. Go on alibabas website and see what some of these things actually cost ,of course you may have to buy 1000 at a time.


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## festerw (Sep 22, 2019)

EatenByLimestone said:


> It's not illegal to be stupid.  That turnover is going to cost them much more than that extra dollar.
> 
> 
> Penny wise, pound foolish.



Agreed, the problem is turnover isn't an easily quantified number like payroll is.



Seasoned Oak said:


> Unless you have been both an employer and an employee you have only seen this from one side of the equation. Being an employer really opens your eyes to the other side of the coin. Make payroll, pay endless bills ,suffer losses, work long hours for nothing ,then come back and make judgements.



I've been on both sides, there's a lot to be said for putting in 40 and going home.  IMO the stress wasn't worth the money, for some folks it is.



Ashful said:


> Guys, I think you’re taking offense at perceived implications, and missing my point. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with being a laborer, or a teacher. Do what makes you happy, and choose your own trade-offs. Despite SpaceBus’s claims to the contrary, no one is forcing you to choose any one path over another.
> 
> My sole issue is the collusion with your workers, whether called legal or not, to hold an employer hostage for wages higher than your choices would have you expect. Stand on your own two feet, folks.
> 
> .. and with that, I’m out. Have fun with your whining about life’s circumstances, I have no interest in that.



History is full of corporations colluding to keep things in their favor.

You keep missing the point that in some labor jobs there is nearly no other way to raise wages.  It would be take the money or get out.  Full stop the cost of living is going up and wages aren't.



Seasoned Oak said:


> No one im america is dying in the streets due to being overworked ,your way more likely to die from obesity.  From an employer point of view everyone is over paid. Of course the employees see it  differently.  The govt dont set a minimun wage for employers. Hell you can start a hundred business that lose money and the Govt dont care about you ,wheres my right to a minimum wage ,a living wage or whatever you want to call it. I have a family too .  What employees have is a guarantee that they will take a fixed minimum amount home every week ,employers have NO SUCH guarantee. Sometimes my living wage is ZERO or less than zero.  So theres 2 ways to look at this issue and many other issues.



From being overworked, no.  However there are plenty who have to choose between medicine or food.

One could also argue that if you can't afford to give employees a living wage that you've grown too fast or haven't priced your product correctly. I know there are plenty of variables, just playing devil's advocate.



pjohnson said:


> I for one love unions, I work in a heavily unionized industry. The company I work for is non union and treats us very good. Every year they they take the average of the unionized companies and give us a raise and pay us more to keep the union out. Plus a very generous profit sharing that pays us 4 or 5 times what the union guys get for profit sharing.  So I say thanks union guys hope ya get a big raise.



And if every employer was like yours there wouldn't be a need for unions.

The problem becomes even companies are concerned with lining the pockets of their shareholders over their employees.  Yes both are important but without employees your company doesn't exist.


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## EatenByLimestone (Sep 22, 2019)

Without shareholders, it doesn't either.     Just figured I'd point out that they were brought in for a reason.

Now, Warren Buffett can teach us a good lesson here in regards to keeping the shareholders happy.   If a company is stable, and their EPS continue to grow in a predictable way, share price will go up.   Paying attention to company details vs only the numbers is a major difference between his philosophy and that of his teacher, Graham.


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 26, 2019)

pjohnson said:


> Why shouldn’t wealthy corporations be forced to pay a living wage? Let’s pick on Walmart not known for high pay. Each Walmart store is estimated to cost taxpayers 1 to 1.75 million to take care of Walmart’s low paid workers, food stamps, Medicare, housing assistance and other government programs. Thats 6.2 billion we pay to support Walmart. Meanwhile the Walton sons and daughters are the richest family in America worth 136 billion, worth more then 43 percent of the population combined.


The media focuses on Tax on salaries but most Billionairs dont earn their billions through salaries at all.  Its a bait and switch.  I rarely hear the media address the  disparity of tax rates on dividends and capitol gains vs Salaries. Some calling for a wealth tax. Its simple, why should the tax rate of a billionaire making milions a of dollars in dividends and capitol gains while sleeping, be roughly half the rate of a policeman or fireman making 50  to 70 k a year risking their life. There lies the real abuse and scandle and a big part of why the rich are getting richer at a much faster rate as everyone else . Even warren buffet pointed that very disparity out and was largely ignored as far as tax policy changes. Nothing changed!


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## EatenByLimestone (Sep 27, 2019)

Are you suggesting lowering all taxes to the capital gains rate?  A flat tax at that rate would be awesome!


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 27, 2019)

EatenByLimestone said:


> Are you suggesting lowering all taxes to the capital gains rate?  A flat tax at that rate would be awesome!


No im suggesting making capitol gains tax of 20%(rich peoples tax)the same as tax on salaries 39% (everyone elses tax rate). why should the rich pay half the tax rate rate as everyone else just because the bulk of their income is from a different category.  Better yet make the top tax on salaries 20% and the CG tax 39% . At least until we have a balanced budget ,after that they can start to lower both. But of course we know they will always spend more than they take in.


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## EatenByLimestone (Sep 27, 2019)

Up the capital gains to 39 and make the top income tier 20, and be prepared for your retirement savings to crash when the stock market does.   There will be no reason to invest in it then.  

Now who would that hurt?  The rich person with 25% of their assets in it, or the pensioner where the pension's assets are invested in the stock market?  Most of the US is betting pretty heavily on the market.

I suppose there is 1 other outcome that is possible.  Hold the shares less than 1 year and any gains stay as regular income.   You could set off a wave of churning never before seen!    I'm not sure how that would affect things.  Could be good, could be bad.  


Cut every tax bracket and make all income taxes the same and all taxation will be fair.  Close all loopholes.   Make everything accounted for on the 1040EZ.  You made x amount, pay x%.   That's as fair as it can get.

Congress critters will never do it though.   It's too easy to keep complaining and using it to fundraise.


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## ABMax24 (Sep 28, 2019)

EatenByLimestone said:


> Now who would that hurt?  The rich person with 25% of their assets in it, or the pensioner where the pension's assets are invested in the stock market?  Most of the US is betting pretty heavily on the market.



I think this is a very important point. So many people rely on the stock market as their investment vehicle. This is part of the mentality that makes corporations want profit over everything else, every hardworking person that puts money in the market expects a return whether it be through dividends or an increase in value, in turn making corporations the monsters they are, taking profitable gains over any social issue, such as outsourcing jobs to Mexico or China.

If there was an easier way to invest money in smaller local businesses maybe this could change. These businesses could have the freedom to buy non-chinese made products, hire local people at rates higher than the big corporations, and because local people would invest in these businesses they would shop there as well.

The fact of the matter is we all have a choice and can play a a part. As a Canadian I chose to buy Canadian products when I can, and American and European as second and third choice when I can't. This is my way of supporting local workers, walking into the local butcher shop to buy local meat, buying a Swedish made saw from a local dealer instead of a Chinese model sold by a big box store.

To tie this all back, unions and non-union labor costs more than outsourcing that labor elsewhere, but the fact is there are benefits far bigger than the price tag or return on an investment to be seen by using our hard-earned dollars to support like minded individuals in our own countries.


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## SpaceBus (Sep 28, 2019)

I too was born in Appalachia and my kin still live there, in poverty. This isn't because of unions or not, this is just because there are no jobs and the populations are mostly retired anyway. This is just the truth in rural america, but also off topic.


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 28, 2019)

Investors will NOT stop investing because the tax rate goes up. Making the CG and Div. tax rate low to "spur" investment is the story we are fed by those pulling the levers to keep those rates at half of what the masses pay. But it may make municipal tax free bonds a much more desirable investment vehicle. You just cant justify charging 39% on middle class salaries and charging wealthiest people in the country 15 to 20% on  millions and billions of  investment earnings.  There is your income inequality i keep hearing about.


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 28, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I too was born in Appalachia and my kin still live there, in poverty. This isn't because of unions or not, this is just because there are no jobs and the populations are mostly retired anyway. This is just the truth in rural america, but also off topic.


3 of my 5 siblings still live in the same town we were born in. None of us are remotely in poverty as our parents were. We simply take advantage of whatever opportunity there is and there is opportunity everywhere. In my case i created my own job. My sister worked at the post office and my other sister works for a Service contractor. True there is not many factories but try to find a plumber or an electrician. Heck they had to send someone from New York State to fix my refrigerator here in central PA. I can think of a dozen fields desperately in need of people right now.  You have to look at the glass as half full ,not half empty.  For those that do there are not enough hours in the week ,for those that dont ,there are no jobs.


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## SpaceBus (Sep 28, 2019)

Seasoned Oak said:


> 3 of my 5 siblings still live in the same town we were born in. None of us are remotely in poverty as our parents were. We simply take advantage of whatever opportunity there is and there is opportunity everywhere. In my case i created my own job. My sister worked at the post office and my other sister works for a Service contractor. True there is not many factories but try to find a plumber or an electrician. Heck they had to send someone from New York State to fix my refrigerator here in central PA. I can think of a dozen fields desperately in need of people right now.  You have to look at the glass as half full ,not half empty.  For those that do there are not enough hours in the week ,for those that dont ,there are no jobs.



In a majority of these smaller towns there are less jobs available than residents. Not everyone can work for the state government either. Your family is one exception among the statistics. The overwhelming majority of rural Americans are below the poverty line and underemployed. 

Your plumber had to come from a long distance because your tiny rural town cannot support a full time plumbing company. This could be from too little income among the population or just too few customers. Where I live in one of the least densely populated areas most companies service most of or the whole state. This is just the reality of living in a rural area.


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 28, 2019)

The population is about 10,000 with several towns around me within a few miles of 10000  ore so.  Those that want to work  are always working ,the rest do nothing and complain there are no jobs. Been like that for as long as i can remember. A lot of the joblessness is SELF inflicted. Im always looking for help in my business ,usually i just have my kids helping or just do everything myself.  Many have no skills and no work  ethic but want top dollar.  Hard to compete with the govt using my tax dollars to give away for free what im trying to sell which is housing.


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## bholler (Sep 28, 2019)

Seasoned Oak said:


> 3 of my 5 siblings still live in the same town we were born in. None of us are remotely in poverty as our parents were. We simply take advantage of whatever opportunity there is and there is opportunity everywhere. In my case i created my own job. My sister worked at the post office and my other sister works for a Service contractor. True there is not many factories but try to find a plumber or an electrician. Heck they had to send someone from New York State to fix my refrigerator here in central PA. I can think of a dozen fields desperately in need of people right now.  You have to look at the glass as half full ,not half empty.  For those that do there are not enough hours in the week ,for those that dont ,there are no jobs.


We work in your area some because there are no sweeps in the area.  The reason for that is the median income is pretty low so many of the people can't afford to pay for skilled labor.  Yes there are clearly people there that can but I personally wouldn't base a service business there just to need to drive to find customers who can afford to pay.


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## SpaceBus (Sep 28, 2019)

For one, nobody wants to work. Like, let's just get that right out in the open. We all like to be occupied with meaningful tasks, but that is rarely equivalent to employment.  Folks that are proud of working more than 40 hours a week confuse me. Why have pride in the fact that you can't make ends meet at 40 hrs? 40 hrs a week is a lot of time to invest into anything that's not for your own family, so why is it insane to say that everyone working full time should be able support a family? Honestly, 40 hours should be more than enough for one family, but I'll probably get called lazy for that. Don't we all want more time with our families? Spending time doing things we like to do? For some reason I think people forget that nobody made a choice to be born into this world, but we also don't have a choice about paying to live.


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## EatenByLimestone (Sep 28, 2019)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Investors will NOT stop investing because the tax rate goes up. Making the CG and Div. tax rate low to "spur" investment is the story we are fed by those pulling the levers to keep those rates at half of what the masses pay. But it may make municipal tax free bonds a much more desirable investment vehicle.




So, you suggest investors will go for munis.  Fair enough.  I'm sure that you know the rate is only part of your return.  Price is a big factor as well.  Your yield is calculated by dividing what they pay you by the price you pay for the bond. 

So, more people want munis.  What does that do?  It drives up the price, or allows the bond to be issued at a lower rate.  Both lower the yield.  Ouch, you've just caused another old person to choose between food and medicine.


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## EatenByLimestone (Sep 28, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> For one, nobody wants to work. Like, let's just get that right out in the open. We all like to be occupied with meaningful tasks, but that is rarely equivalent to employment.  Folks that are proud of working more than 40 hours a week confuse me. Why have pride in the fact that you can't make ends meet at 40 hrs? 40 hrs a week is a lot of time to invest into anything that's not for your own family, so why is it insane to say that everyone working full time should be able support a family? Honestly, 40 hours should be more than enough for one family, but I'll probably get called lazy for that. Don't we all want more time with our families? Spending time doing things we like to do? For some reason I think people forget that nobody made a choice to be born into this world, but we also don't have a choice about paying to live.




If we were in a hunter gatherer society where you only need the knowledge of where to find food people still need to work.  They need to find food.  If they dont, they will starve.  Same as here.  

If one is willing, they are free to squat in some national park.  They're big enough nobody will bother them.


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## bholler (Sep 28, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> For one, nobody wants to work. Like, let's just get that right out in the open. We all like to be occupied with meaningful tasks, but that is rarely equivalent to employment.  Folks that are proud of working more than 40 hours a week confuse me. Why have pride in the fact that you can't make ends meet at 40 hrs? 40 hrs a week is a lot of time to invest into anything that's not for your own family, so why is it insane to say that everyone working full time should be able support a family? Honestly, 40 hours should be more than enough for one family, but I'll probably get called lazy for that. Don't we all want more time with our families? Spending time doing things we like to do? For some reason I think people forget that nobody made a choice to be born into this world, but we also don't have a choice about paying to live.


Many of the people saying you should just go work more are the same people complaining that we no longer have a strong family structure and that parenting sucks.  Yes if people are working 2 jobs or equivalent hours to make ends meet parenting is going to suck.


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## bholler (Sep 28, 2019)

EatenByLimestone said:


> So, you suggest investors will go for munis.  Fair enough.  I'm sure that you know the rate is only part of your return.  Price is a big factor as well.  Your yield is calculated by dividing what they pay you by the price you pay for the bond.
> 
> So, more people want munis.  What does that do?  It drives up the price, or allows the bond to be issued at a lower rate.  Both lower the yield.  Ouch, you've just caused another old person to choose between food and medicine.


Yes but if they had been paying less in taxes their entire life they would probably have more to live off of in old age.


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## EatenByLimestone (Sep 28, 2019)

Maybe, or they could have just gone to the Bahamas.   Which they would have chosen to do on their own.   A much preferable option.  People should always get to choose where their money should get spent.   Taxes are the death of any economy.  Lower everybody's taxes!


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## lsucet (Sep 28, 2019)

bholler said:


> Many of the people saying you should just go work more are the same people complaining that we no longer have a strong family structure and that parenting sucks.  Yes if people are working 2 jobs or equivalent hours to make ends meet parenting is going to suck.


It is hard to be away from the family. I did trucking many years and always away from the family I didn't see any of my kids getting born. Some jobs requires to be away. I was owner operator work for me, have others working and leasing under my authority and I still working. I know is nice to be with the family and see them everyday but my job didn't allowed it. I can be a month gone at a time regardless that I was my own boss and able to make decisions of when to go home. I don't think that was an issue neither. Our family is okay and united. They just appreciate my sacrifice.
At least I was able to supply a decent life to them. The kind the many don't have. Sometimes you have to choose and I choose work hard, away and make the money.


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## SpaceBus (Sep 28, 2019)

EatenByLimestone said:


> If we were in a hunter gatherer society where you only need the knowledge of where to find food people still need to work.  They need to find food.  If they dont, they will starve.  Same as here.
> 
> If one is willing, they are free to squat in some national park.  They're big enough nobody will bother them.


People get arrested for trying to get out of society all the time.


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## SpaceBus (Sep 28, 2019)

I think we can all agree that the system is broken if it requires 99% of the people in it to sacrifice moments with their families that will never happen again when the other 1% has no such hardship. No matter how you qualify and rationalize your time away from you family, it is time you never get back. Meanwhile there's a tiny minority that gets to do whatever they want because you are away from your family. Then you will say I'm a crazy liberal lazy person or whatever, but your rhetoric makes the 1% even richer! Is it so much to ask for every citizen to have a decent life when working 40 hrs a week if it means the 1% can't have another summer mansion or yatch? Even actors and athletes are slaves compared to the 1%. Then there's the part where there are even more impoverished people abroad that don't have to live that way.

The wealth holders of the world might even start to sweat if even a few of the 99% could get along.


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## bholler (Sep 28, 2019)

lsucet said:


> It is hard to be away from the family. I did trucking many years and always away from the family I didn't see any of my kids getting born. Some jobs requires to be away. I was owner operator work for me, have others working and leasing under my authority and I still working. I know is nice to be with the family and see them everyday but my job didn't allowed it. I can be a month gone at a time regardless that I was my own boss and able to make decisions of when to go home. I don't think that was an issue neither. Our family is okay and united. They just appreciate my sacrifice.
> At least I was able to supply a decent life to them. The kind the many don't have. Sometimes you have to choose and I choose work hard, away and make the money.


Yes that is true.  And that was your decision to do that.  I chose a job where I can be home every day with my family.  Neither is right or wrong.  The problem comes when single parents or both parents need to work long hours to make ends meet.


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## lsucet (Sep 28, 2019)

bholler said:


> Yes that is true.  And that was your decision to do that.  I chose a job where I can be home every day with my family.  Neither is right or wrong.  The problem comes when single parents or both parents need to work long hours to make ends meet.


It sound easier than what it is. Many have no choice, this or that is what is available. In trucking industry including if you are local and can go everyday home the average hrs are between 10 to 12 hrs legally. Somebody has to do those jobs and many make a career and are successful in life. I really don't get the Importance and the big deal of work more than 40hrs a week, and in what that change your quality of life. In which way the people that work more than that, don't have a family quality time? What make you think that you can have better time with your family than the one that works more hrs? If everyone have that mentality.........oh well. I am just saying not crating an argument, but I just, don't see it right.


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## ABMax24 (Sep 28, 2019)

lsucet said:


> It sound easier than what it is. Many have no choice, this or that is what is available. In trucking industry including if you are local and can go everyday home the average hrs are between 10 to 12 hrs legally. Somebody has to do those jobs and many make a career and are successful in life. I really don't get the Importance and the big deal of work more than 40hrs a week, and in what that change your quality of life. In which way the people that work more than that, don't have a family quality time? What make you think that you can have better time with your family than the one that works more hrs? If everyone have that mentality.........oh well. I am just saying not crating an argument, but I just, don't see it right.



I think you have it pretty close to right, I also live in an area where many good paying jobs require long hours to be put in. There are lots of Monday to Friday 40hr week kind of jobs around but the hourly pay is barely above minimum wage. If you plan to get ahead you have to take a job that works longer days and more days at a time. For instance this past week I put in 42hrs, I think it's been close to 2 years since I had a work week that slow, we typically run 50-70hrs per week, but on top of the hours the pay is substantially higher. I'm also the kind of person that doesn't like to sit around and do nothing on my spare time, and the fun things cost money making the hours spent at work worth it.


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## begreen (Sep 28, 2019)

EatenByLimestone said:


> Maybe, or they could have just gone to the Bahamas.   Which they would have chosen to do on their own.   A much preferable option.  People should always get to choose where their money should get spent.   Taxes are the death of any economy.  Lower everybody's taxes!


Maybe start by removing the tariffs which are a tax in protectionist clothing.


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## begreen (Sep 28, 2019)

lsucet said:


> It sound easier than what it is. Many have no choice, this or that is what is available. In trucking industry including if you are local and can go everyday home the average hrs are between 10 to 12 hrs legally. Somebody has to do those jobs and many make a career and are successful in life. I really don't get the Importance and the big deal of work more than 40hrs a week, and in what that change your quality of life. In which way the people that work more than that, don't have a family quality time? What make you think that you can have better time with your family than the one that works more hrs? If everyone have that mentality.........oh well. I am just saying not crating an argument, but I just, don't see it right.


It's not just the work hours. My commute was 3 hrs per day on a good day, sometimes an hour longer. Add that to a 8+ hr workday and there was not a lot of family time left. Eventually I was able to start telecommuting. That and a sane workday were a godsend to me when raising a family. I had one child with a disability that affected learning ability. He needed a lot of help to progress in school.


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 28, 2019)

begreen said:


> Maybe start by removing the tariffs which are a tax in protectionist clothing.


Only in exchange for other countries removing their tariffs. Thats were the rub is ,other countries charging us a fortune in tariffs for many years. Much more than we have  been charging them.


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## begreen (Sep 28, 2019)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Only in exchange for other countries removing their tariffs. Thats were the rub is ,other countries charging us a fortune in tariffs for many years. Much more than we have  been charging them.


I don't think so. The tariffs are a tax on us and our economy.  They are accomplishing little other than internal pain. And now we are paying subsidies to ease that pain. More debt.


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## ABMax24 (Sep 28, 2019)

begreen said:


> Maybe start by removing the tariffs which are a tax in protectionist clothing.



IMO those protectionist tariffs are the only way for the US manufacturers to compete. How in the world can the US compete with other countries that have next to no environmental, labor, or wage standards such as China? China does the exact same thing, want to buy a US made car in China, put a 25% tariff on top of the price. To buy a Chinese car in the US should be at least a 40% tariff to compensate for the extra regulations imposed on domestic US car makers.

China is absolutely ruthless in it's bid to take over as absolute economic superpower of the world. For instance Canada arrested the Huawei CFO on an American warrant to extradite her to the US for prosecution. Since then China has banned all imports of Canadian Canola which effects about 43,000 producers. China is nothing short of the schoolyard bully throwing it's weight around. The problem is of all the world leaders only Trump is willing to stand up to the Chinese.


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## lsucet (Sep 29, 2019)

I really see the point and we all have different situations. One way or the other I know is hard.


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## EatenByLimestone (Sep 29, 2019)

How true!   One thing I am sure of, is that we all want the best for our families and neighbors.

Its refreshing that we can discuss these topics in a civil way and then go help somebody having an issue learning to operate a woodstove in the main forums.  Being able to come back together within minutes to work on a problem is inspiring!


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## SpaceBus (Sep 29, 2019)

begreen said:


> It's not just the work hours. My commute was 3 hrs per day on a good day, sometimes an hour longer. Add that to a 8+ hr workday and there was not a lot of family time left. Eventually I was able to start telecommuting. That and a sane workday were a godsend to me when raising a family. I had one child with a disability that affected learning ability. He needed a lot of help to progress in school.



I can't imagine how difficult it would be to even be around excited children after 12+ hours of being awake, working, and generally tired. You must have more patience than a Buddhist monk!


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## SpaceBus (Sep 29, 2019)

ABMax24 said:


> IMO those protectionist tariffs are the only way for the US manufacturers to compete. How in the world can the US compete with other countries that have next to no environmental, labor, or wage standards such as China? China does the exact same thing, want to buy a US made car in China, put a 25% tariff on top of the price. To buy a Chinese car in the US should be at least a 40% tariff to compensate for the extra regulations imposed on domestic US car makers.
> 
> China is absolutely ruthless in it's bid to take over as absolute economic superpower of the world. For instance Canada arrested the Huawei CFO on an American warrant to extradite her to the US for prosecution. Since then China has banned all imports of Canadian Canola which effects about 43,000 producers. China is nothing short of the schoolyard bully throwing it's weight around. The problem is of all the world leaders only Trump is willing to stand up to the Chinese.



No, China is the kid being bullied that is finally fighting back. The US bullied them, and the rest of the world, in the first place.


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 29, 2019)

begreen said:


> I don't think so. The tariffs are a tax on us and our economy.  They are accomplishing little other than internal pain. And now we are paying subsidies to ease that pain. More debt.


So whats your solution to other countries charging us high tariffs. I hope its not the same one we have been using for 30 years which is to just let them keep dumping on us.  And draining our country of cash and jobs. Each 1 Billion of trade deficit is 20,000 jobs transferred out of the US. Times that by china's deficit alone, its in the millions of jobs, Iv yet to hear credible solutions from those who complain about tariffs.  Tariffs are a temporary tool while negotiating a permanent solution. Best case scenario is NO tariffs either way.


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 29, 2019)

ABMax24 said:


> IMO those protectionist tariffs are the only way for the US manufacturers to compete. How in the world can the US compete with other countries that have next to no environmental, labor, or wage standards such as China? China does the exact same thing, want to buy a US made car in China, put a 25% tariff on top of the price. To buy a Chinese car in the US should be at least a 40% tariff to compensate for the extra regulations imposed on domestic US car makers.
> 
> China is absolutely ruthless in it's bid to take over as absolute economic superpower of the world. For instance Canada arrested the Huawei CFO on an American warrant to extradite her to the US for prosecution. Since then China has banned all imports of Canadian Canola which effects about 43,000 producers. China is nothing short of the schoolyard bully throwing it's weight around. The problem is of all the world leaders only Trump is willing to stand up to the Chinese.


Well said , spot on!


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 29, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> No, China is the kid being bullied that is finally fighting back. The US bullied them, and the rest of the world, in the first place.


How is that. China has been charging us 25% tariffs while we charge them 3% for many years . Were the shmuck ,not the bully.  Some countries charge us 100% tariffs on our goods.   Were finally fighting back. China is NO kid! They are eating our lunch in many ways.  They are taking over the south china sea ,gobbling up other countries property and building bases there and no one is attempting to stop them.  Not a kid at all but an 800lb gorilla!


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## ABMax24 (Sep 29, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> No, China is the kid being bullied that is finally fighting back. The US bullied them, and the rest of the world, in the first place.



We could probably argue this back and forth all day. The fact is the Chinese have massive resources dedicated to hacking the servers and computers of other countries and the private companies of other countries to steal information and trade secrets. They have on hundreds of occasions have stole the work and designs of western products to reproduce and sell both within China and abroad. They are extremely protective of their patents and a foreign entity will rarely win a case in Chinese court on patent infringement, yet they come down hard if a Chinese patent is infringed. The worst part is these issues are state sponsored. At least in the west the government provides a fair legal directive for businesses to follow and a court system to have issues heard and tried.

The simple fact of the matter is China has led the US in GDP growth for the better part of the last 40 years. Millions of jobs have been outsourced to China to the point that the US would fail to have many necessary products on the shelves of stores in the event of a trade embargo with China.


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## EatenByLimestone (Sep 29, 2019)

Yeah, China is not innocent.  From currency manipulation to loaning money to countries that cant possibly pay it back in order to have them over a barrel, China has imperialist ambitions.


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## begreen (Sep 29, 2019)

Kind of getting a long way from unions folks. It's been a good discussion of pros and cons. Is this a wrap?

PS: There already is a thread on tariffs.


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## bholler (Sep 29, 2019)

begreen said:


> Kind of getting a long way from unions folks. It's been a good discussion of pros and cons. Is this a wrap?
> 
> PS: There already is a thread on tariffs.


I thought that a while ago.


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## SpaceBus (Sep 29, 2019)

I'll make this line by line

Hacking: Do you really think the US doesn't hack anyone?

Tariffs/production: We decided to outsource jobs to China so that Americans didn't have to work for pennies. That was a choice made by the American people. 

Copyrights: If you think for one moment this doesn't happen in our country you are insane. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that one of the Hearth Forum creators used to make Jotul clones... 

The fact of the matter is you are barking up the wrong tree. China didn't steal our jobs, we outsourced them to China. The explosion of Chinese growth is directly because countries like the US invested money into them. How do you think they magically joined the industrial revolution? 

So yeah, the US is absolutely the bully in this situation and suddenly everyone is shocked that the Chinese are finally doing something for themselves.


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## WinterinWI (Sep 29, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> No, China is the kid being bullied that is finally fighting back. The US bullied them, and the rest of the world, in the first place.



The Chinese government (Communist party of China) is hardly the poor innocent bullied little boy you make it out to be.


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## SpaceBus (Sep 29, 2019)

WinterinWI said:


> The Chinese government (Communist party of China) is hardly the poor innocent bullied little boy you make it out to be.


I never said they were innocent, I'm just saying the US started it. Before that the British Empire crippled the Chinese.


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## Sodbuster (Dec 5, 2019)

EatenByLimestone said:


> They are pricing themselves into automation.
> 
> They all are screwing themselves.  Wages are only part of the picture.  What are their benefits worth?  Why does the pickup cost so much?  Pension expenses.  $33 an hour is beans.  GM is getting labor for that wage.  It's all of those pensions and healthcare benefits they pay for retired people that is killing them.  It's the same as the post office.   BUT, they agreed to those terms.  Maybe it was to get lines moving again, but it kicked the can down the road.  I think the straightaway ended and they are looking at a hairpin curve with a cliff just beyond.
> 
> It's not a single party that is to blame, both parties are to blame.



How is this a party problem? These are companies that are run by major shareholders and Board of Directors.
 Pensions? What are those? Only 95% of the US work force get one. It's all 401K now.


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## begreen (Dec 5, 2019)

I think the figure is more like 50-54% or about half of US workers currently participate in a retirement plan at the workplace.


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## EatenByLimestone (Dec 5, 2019)

Sodbuster said:


> How is this a party problem? These are companies that are run by major shareholders and Board of Directors.
> Pensions? What are those? Only 95% of the US work force get one. It's all 401K now.



So I answered your questions correctly, what do you think I am referring two when I blame both parties?


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## Sodbuster (Dec 5, 2019)

EatenByLimestone said:


> So I answered your questions correctly, what do you think I am referring two when I blame both parties?






begreen said:


> I think the figure is more like 50-54% or about half of US workers currently participate in a retirement plan at the workplace.





EatenByLimestone said:


> So I answered your questions correctly, what do you think I am referring two when I blame both parties?



Sorry, I should have been more  cl


begreen said:


> I think the figure is more like 50-54% or about half of US workers currently participate in a retirement plan at the workplace.



Retirement plan yes, with your own money in a 401K or 403B depending on what type of company you work for. Some companies will match many can't or won't. The days of 30 years and out on dang near full wage plus health insurance are over.


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## Sodbuster (Dec 5, 2019)

EatenByLimestone said:


> So I answered your questions correctly, what do you think I am referring two when I blame both parties?



Sorry I should have been more clear, I agree both parties are crooks, and it's amazing to see how many enter as regular folks and leave millionaires.  My point was is was more of a corporate greed issue. I have a friend that works with a lot of steel, when the tariffs were raised on foreign steel, rather than make more here, by opening up new plants or shuttered ones, they just raised their prices to make more money.


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## begreen (Dec 5, 2019)

Sodbuster said:


> The days of 30 years and out on dang near full wage plus health insurance are over.


Got that right, unless you are an exec (or a federal politician).


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 5, 2019)

Wait till automation kicks in. Robots dont ask for pensions.


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## SpaceBus (Dec 5, 2019)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Wait till automation kicks in. Robots dont ask for pensions.


Eventually the majority will be subsidized.


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## Sodbuster (Dec 5, 2019)

begreen said:


> Got that right, unless you are an exec (or a federal politician).



My wife is fortunate enough to work for a company that will match dollar for dollar up to 10%, unless I'm mistaken that's a 10% ROI. Don't know of anywhere else we can make that without risk.


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## EatenByLimestone (Dec 5, 2019)

That's doubling your money... much better than 10%!


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## bholler (Dec 5, 2019)

Sodbuster said:


> My wife is fortunate enough to work for a company that will match dollar for dollar up to 10%, unless I'm mistaken that's a 10% ROI. Don't know of anywhere else we can make that without risk.


The problem is there is risk.  How much risk depends upon how you set up.your 401k


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## Sodbuster (Dec 6, 2019)

bholler said:


> The problem is there is risk.  How much risk depends upon how you set up.your 401k



True, there is always some risk. My parents who are in their early 80's got stung by bad financial advice.  Their financial advisor had them in almost 100% stocks,  When the market tanked they lost almost 1/2 of their retirement savings, forcing them to work much longer than they wanted to.  It's to the point now that I need to financially support them, in order for them to stay where they are.  Interesting how life goes full circle sometimes.


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## EatenByLimestone (Dec 6, 2019)

We send money to my MIL every month too.  Families need to look out for each other!


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## EatenByLimestone (Dec 6, 2019)

Everytime Ludicrous Speed is mentioned...


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## EatenByLimestone (Dec 6, 2019)

Oops, that was supposed to go in the etruck thread!


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