# Best Way to Sweat Ball Valves?



## velvetfoot (Aug 7, 2014)

Yes, the Alec Baldwin sketch on SNL did occur to me, but I don't know how to reword the topic.

I did a 3/4" valve yesterday, and I'm not sure I did it any favors.  I left the valve open.  Was that the right thing to do?

I have some 1.5" valves to sweat, and I understand MAPP is needed for that.

Any other tips?


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## TimfromMA (Aug 7, 2014)

Stuff bread inside to soak up and residual water. It will flush out when water is turned back on.


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## heaterman (Aug 7, 2014)

We don't use MAPP gas. Just regular torch fuel. The tendency with MAPP is to over heat a particular spot rather than achieving an even temp on the entire fitting.....which is what you want to do.
The torch itself makes all the difference in the world in being able to do that. Much more than the fuel used.
The one we have settled on is a Victor Turbo Torch, model STK-9. Nice tight flame that allows you to put heat where you want it. We use it with regular LP cylinders up to 2" copper. 

Number 1 thing I can tell you is to get the fitting evenly heated by keeping the torch moving. Avoid letting the flame stay in one spot until the solder will melt. Heat the back of the fitting, not the "mouth". Solder will flow to the hottest area. You want the fitting to melt the solder, not the flame of the torch.

Lot's of good info on the turbo torch website about making a good joint.  We solder ball valves with the ball closed to avoid getting solder on the edge of the seal face.


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## velvetfoot (Aug 7, 2014)

Thanks heaterman.  I will follow your recommendations. However, I think my Bernzomatic SureFire TS8000, (yes, I went down to the basement to look that up), is going to have to do.
It makes me nervous heating up the valve ends with the plastic seals inside, not too far away.


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## arbutus (Aug 7, 2014)

This amateur's experience is that the right flux makes a world of difference.  Nokorode worked well, the water soluble Alpha 2000 stuff was absolutely terrible.


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## velvetfoot (Aug 7, 2014)

arbutus said:


> This amateur's experience is that the right flux makes a world of difference.  Nokorode worked well, the water soluble Alpha 2000 stuff was absolutely terrible.


I had the same experience yesterday!  I couldn't find the solder/flux I used the last time from HD that worked great.  I got some stuff yesterday from the hardware store and didn't like the way it worked either. It too was water soluble flux.  I'm gonna go down the HD to see if I can find that stuff.  The soapy water coming from the faucet after running the faucet must've been the flux.  Hey, it's not leaking, anyway.  Memo to me:  make sure all joints are sweated before turning on water.


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## Don2222 (Aug 7, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> Thanks heaterman.  I will follow your recommendations. However, I think my Bernzomatic SureFire TS8000, (yes, I went down to the basement to look that up), is going to have to do.
> It makes me nervous heating up the valve ends with the plastic seals inside, not too far away.



I sweat a ball valve once. As I was applying heat, I hear POP ! ! !

That was the end of the plastic seal. So be careful!

I think it was a cheap ball valve and the better valves may not do this so easily!


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## maple1 (Aug 7, 2014)

I've soldered quite a few ball valves. Was always concerned about getting too much heat on it & messing up the plastic inside, but as far as I know no damage was ever done.

Not sure what you're using for solder, but if this is all boiler piping (non-potable), I seem to have much better luck with solder that has lead in it. That no-lead stuff can be tricky in getting the heat right for it. At least for the non-pro me.


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## velvetfoot (Aug 7, 2014)

Yes, it was a big change for me when they changed to non lead.  I picked up some tinning flux at HD.  I think that made it easier.  The water soluble flux seems to be all the range however.
The knowledgeable fellow at HD said that the reason why the valve operated easier was not because of the heat, but because the flux lubricated it.  Made sense to me.


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## Don2222 (Aug 7, 2014)

maple1 said:


> I've soldered quite a few ball valves. Was always concerned about getting too much heat on it & messing up the plastic inside, but as far as I know no damage was ever done.
> 
> Not sure what you're using for solder, but if this is all boiler piping (non-potable), I seem to have much better luck with solder that has lead in it. That no-lead stuff can be tricky in getting the heat right for it. At least for the non-pro me.


Oh yes, the old lead solder worked great! That is why I switched to Mapp gas for the new non leaded solder because it needs a little more heat!


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## Karl_northwind (Aug 7, 2014)

In a word: slowly. 

I do nearly all of my work with a bernzomatic 8000 and solder for anything up to 1.25".  carry over from doing solar soldering on roofs.  tank and hose no good there.  
I typically use silver bearing solder, and oatey #5 flux.  keep in mind flux will oxidize and go bad over time.  I usually replace the tub before it's used up.  but I buy pint tubs.  

karl


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## velvetfoot (Aug 7, 2014)

Karl_northwind said:


> In a word: slowly.
> 
> I do nearly all of my work with a bernzomatic 8000 and solder for anything up to 1.25".  carry over from doing solar soldering on roofs.  tank and hose no good there.
> I typically use silver bearing solder, and oatey #5 flux.  keep in mind flux will oxidize and go bad over time.  I usually replace the tub before it's used up.  but I buy pint tubs.
> ...


Do you use propane or MAPP in that Bernz?


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## goosegunner (Aug 7, 2014)

My dad was a plumber for 40 years, did large commercial work and a lot of plumbing at hospitals including medical gas. He used a Turbo torch and acetylene on my system.

gg


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## Bob Rohr (Aug 7, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> Do you use propane or MAPP in that Bernz?




The new low-lead valves are a bit trickier to solder.  Clean fitting and tube, ream burr from tube, thin flux application.

Then heat the copper tube outside the fitting until the flux starts to warm and flow, then move the heat to the base of the fitting.  Move the flame around the valve, don't keep it in one place.

As soon as the solder melts around the joint, remove the heat or you risk burning the flux.  

If the solder is dripping on the floor, the joint is filled, no need to keep melting solder onto the floor.  Typically a 1" joint required 1" of solder, same for other sizes 2" fitting 2" of solder.

If you burn the flux, and the solder does not flow into the joint, stop, cool it down, re-clean and re-flux.

Taking most of the lead out of valves and fitting changes the way it solders.

Most often joints fail to solder correctly because they have been over-heated.

Most of the valve manufacturers and the Copper Development Association are releasing You Tube videos on soldering techniques for the new low lead products.

A ball valve should be in the open position when soldering.

This Nibco video is a good one.


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## velvetfoot (Aug 7, 2014)

Thanks very much Bob.  I did burn the flux at one point on a 3/4" T and had to redo.  I didn't think that the low lead valves made a difference just like the solder.  I got some tinning flux from the store-I seem to remember having luck with that, but I could be wrong.


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## Karl_northwind (Aug 8, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> Do you use propane or MAPP in that Bernz?


I use propane exclusively.  I don't do potable plumbing, so I don't usually spend the $ on lead free stuff (I may not have a choice, as some suppliers are phasing out all the non-lead free brass) so I haven't had to worry about changing my technique.  I may have to though.

OK, watched the video, and there's nothing there I don't do.  

karl


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## cityboy172 (Aug 8, 2014)

I prefer map over propane. I prefer a B-tank turbo torch over about anything for soldering.


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## maple1 (Aug 8, 2014)

Only used propane here. The short fat 1lb cylinders. Easy to handle and can refill them from the BBQ tank.


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## Fred61 (Aug 8, 2014)

I have a Presto-lite acetylene/air torch and a Turbo-torch with a 5 pound tubular cylinder and 10 foot hose. Always had trouble getting enough air for a clean burn with the Presto-Lite for a clean burn. The Turbo Torch which burns propane has a pencil flame which heats a small area. It was my understanding that mapp gives you a flame that will wrap around the pipe heating a larger area than propane while burning clean. It works for me. I'm using the map 14 oz. cylinders and have two different torch heads. One's a regular Bernz O Matic and the other is made by Turbo Torch.


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## Ashful (Aug 8, 2014)

I worked a bit as a plumber's apprentice growing up, since my family (grandfather) owned a plumbing business, we owned a lot of old commercial property that was always being rennovated.  I've soldered thousands of joints, and at least hundreds of valve bodies (ball and gate).  There's only one way to really learn to do it, and that's to watch someone who knows what they're doing.  That used to mean going on the job with an experienced plumber, but now we have YouTube.  Buy some cheap ball valves at Lowes (the "American Valve" junk for $7 each), and practice.  Watch the videos to figure out what you're doing wrong.  When you're good, then it's time to spend real money on the Nibco valve you're actually going to install in your house.

On MAPP vs. Acetylene... I grew up using Acetylene, but now use MAPP.  Yes, you can burn the fitting with MAPP if you're not careful, but it also has an advantage when working with components like ball valves.  With the added horsepower, you're able to heat the back of the solder cup to the desired temperature more quickly, and then remove the heat, before as much transfers to the Teflon seal.  In essence, you're adding less net energy to the object to achieve the same temperature at the desired location.  YMMV...


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## heaterman (Aug 9, 2014)

Lead free solder and lead free valves are not mandatory for heating lines. Only potable water. 
You can still get 50/50 solder and valves that are not lead free. 

JFYI.


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## heaterman (Aug 9, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> Thanks heaterman.  I will follow your recommendations. However, I think my Bernzomatic SureFire TS8000, (yes, I went down to the basement to look that up), is going to have to do.
> It makes me nervous heating up the valve ends with the plastic seals inside, not too far away.



The only thing to be careful of when soldering with the valve closed is that there is not water trapped inside the ball. It will flash to steam and can blow out the side of the valve.


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