# Your new stove is going to come with a skull and crossbones government warning



## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Dec 19, 2020)

Wood burners triple harmful indoor air pollution, study finds
					

Exclusive: Burners should be sold with health warnings, say scientists who found tiny particles flooding into rooms




					www.theguardian.com
				




You know, sort of like the warning on a pack of smokes.


----------



## Sawset (Dec 19, 2020)

My wife sets the smoke alarms off when cooking breakfast. She came with warnings too, but i didn't listen.
But seriously, I wonder how this would compare to all the other respiratory hazards out there. Cooking, wood shop dust, diesel, the neighbors bonfires, inversions. We're fairly rural and up high,  so those outside influences are rare.  I purposely keep the house kind of loose at the joints (a few gaps here and there like at the door seals) just to get a supply of fresh air. As long as I have a supply of wood, I'll take the fresh air. There are homes that are super sealed, with air/air heat exchangers - are they healthy?


----------



## SpaceBus (Dec 19, 2020)

Sawset said:


> My wife sets the smoke alarms off when cooking breakfast. She came with warnings too, but i didn't listen.
> But seriously, I wonder how this would compare to all the other respiratory hazards out there. Cooking, wood shop dust, diesel, the neighbors bonfires, inversions. We're fairly rural and up high,  so those outside influences are rare.  I purposely keep the house kind of loose at the joints (a few gaps here and there like at the door seals) just to get a supply of fresh air. As long as I have a supply of wood, I'll take the fresh air. There are homes that are super sealed, with air/air heat exchangers - are they healthy?


I tend to agree with this, wood stoves are just one source of indoor air pollution, and probably not one of the worst.


----------



## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Dec 19, 2020)

I do find that during the burning season, everything in the stove room  gets a layer of dust on it.  I think most of it is ash from cleanouts and the little bit that spills out during reloads then sucked through the blower when it is turned back on.

Maybe I'll just start wearing my mask at home now, too.


----------



## Stagolee104 (Dec 19, 2020)

I have a large Hepa filter air purifier in the same room as my woodstove, every time I open the doors to reload I run it on the highest setting  and is running on low-mid all day.  ill probably always heat with wood and I’ll always run a air purifier, it makes all the difference.


----------



## SpaceBus (Dec 19, 2020)

Easy Livin’ 3000 said:


> I do find that during the burning season, everything in the stove room  gets a layer of dust on it.  I think most of it is ash from cleanouts and the little bit that spills out during reloads then sucked through the blower when it is turned back on.
> 
> Maybe I'll just start wearing my mask at home now, too.


I get a bit of ash on the ground in front of the stoves on occasion, especially the cookstove, but a good room air filter and mopping frequently have really cut down on our house dust.


----------



## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Dec 19, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> I get a bit of ash on the ground in front of the stoves on occasion, especially the cookstove, but a good room air filter and mopping frequently have really cut down on our house dust.


You are right! 

We are pretty diligent about sweeping the ash up during reloads, before turning the blower back on, and we have an air filter that we fire up from time to time when I see lots of particles in the afternoon sun beams.  We have a lot of rugs, so that catches a lot, and for some odd reason the little lady loves to vacuum, and has a real nice one that she uses to the point of distraction.

I'm not worried for a second about the dangers described in the article.  My draft is sucking almost everything right out the chimney when we reload.


----------



## Dataman (Dec 19, 2020)

Another source of Dust if you run Humidifier.  White *dust* is a byproduct of minerals found naturally in water, which can sometimes be released into the air during the humidification process. White *dust*, which can be a nuisance but is not harmful, may settle on surfaces and furniture near the *humidifier*. It is easily cleaned just as you would normally *dust*.


----------



## SpaceBus (Dec 19, 2020)

Easy Livin’ 3000 said:


> You are right!
> 
> We are pretty diligent about sweeping the ash up during reloads, before turning the blower back on, and we have an air filter that we fire up from time to time when I see lots of particles in the afternoon sun beams.  We have a lot of rugs, so that catches a lot, and for some odd reason the little lady loves to vacuum, and has a real nice one that she uses to the point of distraction.
> 
> I'm not worried for a second about the dangers described in the article.  My draft is sucking almost everything right out the chimney when we reload.



I got a Dyson V10 Pet cordless and my wife uses it several times a day. We also have dogs in the house, one being a white German Shepherd, so it comes with the territory. We are finding more dust upstairs, since our dogs don't go up there we don't vacuum as often. If you live in a place with high silica content in the soil, that is probably more dangerous than a bit of ash in the house. People often burn scented candles in an effort to improve indoor air quality, but most of those candles release led and other carcinogens into the atmosphere. Even the "soy" candles are not good, only the real beeswax and cotton wicked candles are non-carcinogenic.


----------



## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Dec 19, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> I got a Dyson V10 Pet cordless and my wife uses it several times a day. We also have dogs in the house, one being a white German Shepherd, so it comes with the territory. We are finding more dust upstairs, since our dogs don't go up there we don't vacuum as often. If you live in a place with high silica content in the soil, that is probably more dangerous than a bit of ash in the house. People often burn scented candles in an effort to improve indoor air quality, but most of those candles release led and other carcinogens into the atmosphere. Even the "soy" candles are not good, only the real beeswax and cotton wicked candles are non-carcinogenic.


Your point about candles is a really good one.  It's sort of ironic that wood burning for actual heat gets all this attention in the UK, wonder if candle burning for "ambiance" gets any?


----------



## kennyp2339 (Dec 19, 2020)

I'm so glad mankind made it from before BC to the mid 2000's without these warnings about dangerous indoor pollutants. I mean lets get real here, as a society we have shifted to such a nanny state of mind. I can remember the days of going to a bar and literally wearing cigarettes by the time I left to go home, sometimes to much is really to much.


----------



## Mech e (Dec 19, 2020)

Just about anything you buy in CA has warnings, so much so that no one pays attention to them.  When did it become the government's job to warn you about all of the risks associated with living, real or imagined?


----------



## SpaceBus (Dec 19, 2020)

kennyp2339 said:


> I'm so glad mankind made it from before BC to the mid 2000's without these warnings about dangerous indoor pollutants. I mean lets get real here, as a society we have shifted to such a nanny state of mind. I can remember the days of going to a bar and literally wearing cigarettes by the time I left to go home, sometimes to much is really to much.


Indoor air pollution has killed millions of humans over the years. Smoke inhalation from open firepits in houses, the primary means of having a fire for most of human history, was a huge cause of illness among early humans. Whenever I see a fireplace in a youtube video, movie, tv show, etc. and see heavy smoke staining on the lintel I know that someone in that house probably suffers from respiratory issues. I know it seems kind of "nanny state" but that very thing is what helps people live healthy lives into their 70's and 80s, sometimes even folks in their 90's are active, using stairs, etc. Ever seen what a Kerosene lantern looks like after it burns for a while? Even just lighting a home introduced smoke and toxic particles into the room air. Sometimes I do marvel that humans are even alive.


----------



## SpaceBus (Dec 19, 2020)

Mech e said:


> Just about anything you buy in CA has warnings, so much so that no one pays attention to them.  When did it become the government's job to warn you about all of the risks associated with living, real or imagined?


This is because manufacturers and other makers of retail products do not always disclose harmful compenents/ingredients. Used to be that arsenic was used to make green dyes and paint. This caused thousands of arsenic poisoning deaths since arsenic can be absorbed through the skin by touching the painted objects or inhaled when the wallpaper or paint was removed from a surface. Just like asbestosis caused by asbestos being in just about everything .The fact that the CA Prop 65 warning is on almost everything should be a wake up call, not the butt of a joke.  It should be terrifying to people that cancer causing ingredients can be found in your wife's skin cream or other basic products. 

The "oh well, everything causes cancer" mentality is a quitter mentality. We should be pressuring our legislators and corporate overlords to force manufacturers to stop using harmful ingredients, components, etc. I don't understand why everyone is just OK with toxic chemicals in almost everything.


----------



## ABMax24 (Dec 19, 2020)

What really amazes me is the differences in the  resiliency of the human body. I work in a welding shop, I've worked with career welders in their 60's and early 70's that are healthier then most in that age group, welding fumes, metal fumes, grinding dust, and a pack of cigarettes a day hasn't seemed to phase them. I've also worked with those in their early 30's that have been diagnosed with "manganism", essentially a Parkinson's like condition caused by a build up of manganese in the brain from the inhalation of metal fumes.


----------



## jatoxico (Dec 19, 2020)

I don't dismiss the article out of hand and to some extent point well taken. On the other hand I wish they provided the data for each of the households separately. The mean peak 2.5 is barely above recommended max while the highest is about 4x that. 

Consequently I couldn't figure out if any of the homes were of "doing it right" and the overall results are skewed by one or more poorly drafting or maintained setups. The high CV suggests that may be the case. While the point was made that outdoor particulate was not source of the peaks it was also tough to tell what the baseline particulate was. 

Maybe a more careful read would answer the questions or maybe I'm just dense but if you're getting a lot of smoke spill probably should takes steps to fix it.


----------



## SpaceBus (Dec 19, 2020)

ABMax24 said:


> What really amazes me is the differences in the  resiliency of the human body. I work in a welding shop, I've worked with career welders in their 60's and early 70's that are healthier then most in that age group, welding fumes, metal fumes, grinding dust, and a pack of cigarettes a day hasn't seemed to phase them. I've also worked with those in their early 30's that have been diagnosed with "manganism", essentially a Parkinson's like condition caused by a build up of manganese in the brain from the inhalation of metal fumes.



I'm sure there will be research that discloses exactly what the cause for some folks to do better. In past jobs I worked with some welders and they were 50's and up, all suffering from eye damage and lung damage.  I'm willing to bet those guys you know are acting tough when folks can see them, but have undiagnosed issues. Younger people are more likely to go to the doctor because they don't want to live with COPD for 50+ years like their fathers and grandfathers did. My wife is terrified of airborne contaminants because her grandfather worked in a coal fired power plant and suffered immensely from it.


----------



## SpaceBus (Dec 19, 2020)

I used to be a "safety third" kind of guy until I was struck with an unexplained health problem. Now I actively try to seek out products that don't have toxic components, make most things myself, and generally stay away from unregulated products from China, third world nations, etc. I love the prop 65 warning because it helps me avoid products that could harm my future productivity. I'm too young to die and leave my wife with a bunch of unfinished projects!


----------



## Woodsplitter67 (Dec 19, 2020)

I believe that there is some  Validity to the article. That being said I think that there are a ton of other things that are worse.  We use the  Central vac on a daily basis. As far as loading goes.. Im a top loading stove and I don't see how alot of particles are getting out..

We bring wood in once to every other day.. wood come in break out the small shop vac.. then the house gets vacuumed with central vac.. I like it clean.. The ash pan gets dumped once a week if were burning alot..


----------



## paulnlee (Dec 19, 2020)

My dogs both fart alot, now that's indoor pollution


----------



## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Dec 19, 2020)

kennyp2339 said:


> I'm so glad mankind made it from before BC to the mid 2000's without these warnings about dangerous indoor pollutants. I mean lets get real here, as a society we have shifted to such a nanny state of mind. I can remember the days of going to a bar and literally wearing cigarettes by the time I left to go home, sometimes to much is really to much.


My counterpoint would be: So we should expect corporations with one exceptionally dominant motivation to look out for us?  A recent example is the Sandler family and their corporate machine who made billions by getting as much of the world as they could hooked on opiates.  Cigarette companies and fossil fuel companies are other good examples.   There are many, many other examples.

One failure of the capitalist system is the lack of protections to individuals and environments.  The government has a role to play in counterbalancing this lack of incentive on the part of capitalists.

The argument that it's bad business to kill your customers, fails in the misalignment of time frames.  The corporate brass simply plays the game of "I don't have to outrun the bear, I just have to outrun my friend".  They gamble, because it's extraordinarily rewarding to do so, that their successor will be holding the bag when the music stops.

I hate government interference in my personal liberties.  I'm all for it when it comes to corporate entities.  The owners want maximum profit, management is highly pressured to deliver.  Third parties, including customers and rank and file, often pay a steep price.  Protection of these third parties, that's a role I really want my government to play.


----------



## rosem (Dec 19, 2020)

I have young kids and read about PM2.5 a lot before burning wood in our house.

I'm a software developer and have invested in multiple air quality sensors that measure PM2.5 and VOCs among other things.

I plan on having a more detailed post about this but I can not replicate these results. I have the PM2.5 monitor in my stove room too and never see a spike. Sure it might go from 1ppm to 4ppm and that's 4x, but it's still nothing crazy like they (and other studies I've seen) report.

I can get the sensor to really go crazy putting it above the door with a half burned log rolled near the front of the door. But as for that room and the whole house in general I don't see any difference.

Cooking makes the VOCs go off the charts and raises PM2.5 more and we have an electronic stove.

Anyway I'm very interested in this and plan on investigating them more. I might even create similar sensors to send to members for our own tests if people are interested.

I can see if you reload with wetter wood and it's not down to coal and you load e/w and you have a week draft that the smoke could really roll in. There is for sure good and bad practice. I try to keep all my wood ready to load and get the door shut quickly. If I open the door I make sure it's mostly hot coals going. Cracking a window, etc... Making smart choices can make a big difference.

One thing I like about not having an outdoor air kit is that the air on constantly recycling in my house, especially with the window open. I described the air in our house to my wife by saying it's lime a river, instead of a pond, always moving and staying fresh. I know that's a draft to some people and. It efficient but I think it's healthy. That said I live in the country and to the west wind there isn't another house for miles and lots of national forest. So I'm not worrying about someone polluting the air coming in.

With an outdoor air kit and a tight house I can see that stuff building up quick if you're spilling smoke out the door.

All this said I always have a window cracked now that I'm hyper away of how quickly VOCs can build up in the winter. Especially if you don't run your kitchen vent and keep temps above 70F.

Here is the sensor I currently use the most, it is not widely available in the US for whatever reason.


			https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Honeywell/HAQSPA_R?qs=rkhjVJ6%2F3EJEcjKzNsTJBQ%3D%3D
		


All that said I think it's something we should be aware of rather than scoff at.

More to come later.


----------



## thunderhead (Dec 19, 2020)

I'd love to see the stove setups in that study.   Id think some stoves with stronger drafts will deposit very little smoke into a house.  One advantage to my setup with a draft that i suspect is a little on the strongside... its tough to get any smoke into the house... i have to open the door rapidly during a high burn.


Can you get significant pm2.5 contamination without smoke smell?


----------



## jetsam (Dec 19, 2020)

Easy Livin’ 3000 said:


> I do find that during the burning season, everything in the stove room  gets a layer of dust on it.  I think most of it is ash from cleanouts and the little bit that spills out during reloads then sucked through the blower when it is turned back on.
> 
> Maybe I'll just start wearing my mask at home now, too.



I get a noticeable amount of ash settling around the room after a cleanout even if I run a filtered fan while I'm doing it.

I don't doubt that a lifetime of getting wood and burning it has taken a few years off my lungs' expiration date.  I'm in favor of the skulls and crossbones sticker for new stoves, and also I'd like them to send me one or two to put on my old stove. (And about 30 for my ring of rocks that I burn brush and toast marshmallows in, that one is extra hazardous to your lungs.)


----------



## Mech e (Dec 19, 2020)

The last place I would put my health and personal safety would be in the hands government.


----------



## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Dec 19, 2020)

jetsam said:


> I get a noticeable amount of ash settling around the room after a cleanout even if I run a filtered fan while I'm doing it.
> 
> I don't doubt that a lifetime of getting wood and burning it has taken a few years off my lungs' expiration date.  I'm in favor of the skulls and crossbones sticker for new stoves, and also I'd like them to send me one or two to put on my old stove. (And about 30 for my ring of rocks that I burn brush and toast marshmallows in, that one is extra hazardous to your lungs.)


I've also done some things that have taken some years off my cardiovascular's original warranty period.  I'm ok with it, because I'm am absolutely sure it was worth it.  Just one example is sitting here by this toasty stove right now, apparently.  Plus, lingering around for too long at the end is no fun, for anyone.


----------



## SpaceBus (Dec 19, 2020)

jetsam said:


> I get a noticeable amount of ash settling around the room after a cleanout even if I run a filtered fan while I'm doing it.
> 
> I don't doubt that a lifetime of getting wood and burning it has taken a few years off my lungs' expiration date.  I'm in favor of the skulls and crossbones sticker for new stoves, and also I'd like them to send me one or two to put on my old stove. (And about 30 for my ring of rocks that I burn brush and toast marshmallows in, that one is extra hazardous to your lungs.)


I wish there were some kind of adhesive that would work. Maybe a stencil and contrasting high temp paint?


----------



## SpaceBus (Dec 19, 2020)

Mech e said:


> The last place I would put my health and personal safety would be in the hands government.


Oddly enough they are the only ones doing anything about it.


----------



## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Dec 19, 2020)

Mech e said:


> The last place I would put my health and personal safety would be in the hands government.


Who then?  Corporations? 

You know the military and police are part of the gubment?  As arr the FDA, EPA, SEC, etc., etc.

Really, why do I bother.


----------



## jetsam (Dec 19, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> I wish there were some kind of adhesive that would work. Maybe a stencil and contrasting high temp paint?



I touch mine up with regular old Stove Bright, which is available in many colors!

I hereby declare that whoever first posts a picture of their stove with a skull and crossbones stenciled on it will be the OFFICIAL WINNER of this thread, and will thereby accrue many VALUABLE INTERNET POINTS.


----------



## SpaceBus (Dec 19, 2020)

jetsam said:


> I touch mine up with regular old Stove Bright, which is available in many colors!
> 
> I hereby declare that whoever first posts a picture of their stove with a skull and crossbones stenciled on it will be the OFFICIAL WINNER of this thread, and will thereby accrue many VALUABLE INTERNET POINTS.


I don't think my wife would go for it.


----------



## Grizzerbear (Dec 19, 2020)

Think about the fumes from frying food lol. I've been in some old timers houses where the walls/counters near the cook stove had a greasy feel to them.


----------



## SpaceBus (Dec 19, 2020)

Grizzerbear said:


> Think about the fumes from frying food lol. I've been in some old timers houses where the walls/counters near the cook stove had a greasy feel to them.


I've begun only deep frying things outside. Even bacon is fried in a tall pot now. Some day we will have a nice range hood as well.


----------



## Sawset (Dec 19, 2020)

Mech e said:


> The last place I would put my health and personal safety would be in the hands government.


On the other hand, I can think of more than a dozen people killed, maimed or dismembered, all prior to mandated safety improvements. I look on now in disbelief sometimes at some of the things that people (and myself) were subjected to because of profits and because some were too proud to demand better. Personal safety already is in the hands of government. Maybe you have some bad experiences complying.


----------



## begreen (Dec 19, 2020)

Mech e said:


> Just about anything you buy in CA has warnings, so much so that no one pays attention to them.  When did it become the government's job to warn you about all of the risks associated with living, real or imagined?


When lawyers started suing for negligence.


----------



## begreen (Dec 19, 2020)

Mech e said:


> The last place I would put my health and personal safety would be in the hands government.


We already do and are probably grateful for it. It's why planes haven't crashed into our houses and the water is safe to drink.


----------



## Grizzerbear (Dec 19, 2020)

Mech e said:


> The last place I would put my health and personal safety would be in the hands government.



I can relate to that.


----------



## Nealm66 (Dec 19, 2020)

I have some friends in they’re 90’s that used a wood stove all of they’re whole lives. A few years back, the mom ran across the hay field to get the gate for a trailer bringing in hay. Maybe we just don’t make em like that anymore


----------



## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Dec 20, 2020)

Nealm66 said:


> I have some friends in they’re 90’s that used a wood stove all of they’re whole lives. A few years back, the mom ran across the hay field to get the gate for a trailer bringing in hay. Maybe we just don’t make em like that anymore


Anecdotes aren't statistics.  The average lifespan has increased significantly over the last 50 years.  I'm not saying that most older folks are in great shape and able to fend for themselves, like the mom.  For that, I have much respect.

There was a couple, Scott and Helen Nearing.  They are sort of famous in the back-to-the land/homesteading/self-reliance circles.  They wrote a book called "The Good Life".   When Scott could no longer bring in the wood that they used to heat their hand-built stone house in Maine, I think he was 99 or 100 yrs old, he stopped eating.  They certainly don't make them like that anymore.  They didn't make many like that, ever, though.  

He was an ivy league PhD economist, socialist, and vegetarian.









						Scott Nearing - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org
				












						About | The Good Life Center
					





					goodlife.org


----------



## Mech e (Dec 20, 2020)

Easy Livin’ 3000 said:


> Who then?  Corporations?
> 
> You know the military and police are part of the gubment?  As arr the FDA, EPA, SEC, etc., etc.
> 
> Really, why do I bother.


Yes, I have put my health and safety into several corporations hands after doing research to understand the quality of their services and products. 

I served in our country's military for five years,  as did my brother and our sons.  I can tell you your personal health and safety was not part of our job description. 

Have you looked at the ratio of police to citizens in your city?  I have the highest regard for those who serve, but if someone is breaking into my home to do harm to me or my family,  I know calling 911 is not going to protect us.

Is the government going to protect me from getting covid?  Is the government going to protect me from getting cancer from too much sun exposure?  I think not.

Our safety and health are our own personal responsibility.    @SpaceBus gave some great examples of things he and his wife do in this area.  Each of us must do what we deem necessary to achieve our personal standards, and not rely on the government to do it for us.


----------



## SpaceBus (Dec 20, 2020)

Mech e said:


> Yes, I have put my health and safety into several corporations hands after doing research to understand the quality of their services and products.
> 
> I served in our country's military for five years,  as did my brother and our sons.  I can tell you your personal health and safety was not part of our job description.
> 
> ...


Certainly you can't trust that the government will look out for everything, so yes, it is a personal responsibility. It just so happens that the government is doing more to help protect your health and safety than anyone else. I listed arsenic and asbestos specifically because it took decades for the manufacturers of products containing those toxins to stop using them. We are still dealing with the legacy today, and the only reason they stopped is because of government intervention. Another great example is leaded gasoline, which can still be found at some race tracks to this day. The only reason we aren't breathing in ground level lead pollution is that the EPA made it illegal. Corporations/manufacturers will almost never do the right thing, and this has been seen time and time again. The government protections certainly aren't universal, but better than nothing.

The military has changed a lot since you were in and health and safety are seen as much more important these days. While certainly there are still old NCO's that will drive you into the ground if you let them, so a certain amount of personal responsibility is necessary.

There are some watchdog groups out there, but not many folks looking out for the safety of the masses, just earning dollars right now. It doesn't matter to the rich if poor people die of exposure to dangerous compounds, that's a problem for the future. The dollar is king of everything and loyalty can be purchased from most individuals, poor and rich alike. Protesting safety warnings and interventions is actively working against your own self interest of survival.

Your 911 example is also flawed because it is not the job of the police to stop a home invader. It is their job to apprehend the perpetrator, as in a crime must take place before police can act.


----------



## PaulOinMA (Dec 20, 2020)

My dad's father died young of brain cancer in the 1940s.  Polish immigrant.  Enough English to read a batch record.

Dad gave the valedictorian address at his NJ high school, Don Bosco Prep.  Too poor to go to Rutgers for pharmacy, so he joined his dad in the late 1930s at Johns Manville until WWII.

Dad said his father worked in a pre-OSHA cloud of chemical dust.


----------



## paulnlee (Dec 20, 2020)

Mine Dad retired from Cyanamid (Calco back then) He would come home litteraly in different colors. Area is still a toxic dump except fot NJ Patriots baseball stadium next door. Both JM & Cyanamid border the raritan river, no wonder them carp were so damn huge


----------

