# Payback Periods



## caucapon (Jan 10, 2008)

My concerns closely parallel those of the gentleman from Denver who originated a gasifier thread several days ago. My wife and I just purchase a 2400 sq. ft. true log cabin in southwestern Virginia with two story ceilings in half the house and a conventional second floor in the second half. This house has no exterior insulation other than the logs themselves. There are approximately four inches of cellulose blown into the partial attic. Windows are many with double panes. The house was built in 1991. While winter temperatures here can go as low as about O degrees F., a typical January low seems to be about 25 to 30 degrees. By mid-April, winter is usually long gone.

Our house has no basement, only an 18" to 36" crawl space. This area is heavily cut up by three support beams that divide the crawl space into four channels. The residence is currently heated only by one directly vented and kerosene fired Monitor heater. My first task upon assuming ownership this fall was to remove the industrial oil fired heater and AC combo unit located outside the structure. This unit was essentially inoperable and should never have been installed in the first place, if only because of the gross inefficiencies involved.

Over the past thirty years, I have installed several wood/coal stoves, one Monarch coal burning furnace, one natural gas fired furnace, and one oil fired furnace. I am currently considering the possibility of the purchase and installation of a wood/coal fired boiler. Since I was forced to remove all duct work that serviced the erstwhile furnace/Ac combo unit in order to install my support beams, there is at present absolutely no infrastructure in place to service furnace or boiler. Duct work would be difficult to install in the crawl space and very difficult to hide within the living space. However, realistically, anything goes.

I am very concerned about payback for a wood boiler install. I've been following a number of threads on this forum over the past few weeks. It's become apparent that these boilers are not presently sold with all the accoutrements necessary for efficient and effective use. The need for outside protection for most boilers, the necessity of external water storage, and all the other additions many members of this forum incorporate into their systems makes me question the validity of going this route in my climatic zone and with my heating needs. Having to install a completely different system for air conditioning is another financial downer.

Our Monitor 41 has already used about $800 worth of K1 oil. I anticipate a minimum heating oil expense of approximately $2000 for the season. This will be true even though we are keeping our interior temperature at about 65 degrees. Inexpensive wood is readily available. I have a limited number of trees on my six acres and would have to purchase all wood to be used as fuel. Coal may be another possibility. I used it extensively twenty-five years ago and greatly prefer it to wood, cost aside. Our domestic hot water is electric. We are probably paying about $40 to $50 a month to heat our water.

I would only consider the purchase of a true gasifier. Old style boilers would prove very problematic to me for a variety of reasons. I'd greatly appreciate some forthright comments regarding what you perceive to be your payback periods wherever you may live. I'm well aware that people from Wisconsin or Denver endure consistently colder temps and much longer winters than I; however, I suspect that the vast majority of current users will be found in such areas. Their experiences while not directly related to what I might expect should still afford me some real benefit. I'm also curious just what most of you feel your final price tag was. While I'm sure that many would say that such a purchase ends up being an ongoing expense due to constant experimentation and modification, I'm betting that you probably can throw out valid ballpark figures.

Thanks in advance for any info.

Allen Jarvis
Wytheville, Va. 24382


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 10, 2008)

Hi Allen; welcome to the Boiler Room.

Good points, all of them. 

I don't know where to start, but I can say that in my case, the materials cost for installing and EKO 60 in my barn and piping it into my existing hydronic heating system, plus the tank and heat exchanger, was around $10,000 and perhaps slightly higher. I did all the work myself, basically learning as I went along. I wouldn't say that I made any expensive mistakes, but I did a lot of things more than once, and bought some stuff that proved to be unnecessary. I get my wood for my labor. I think that in a cold northern NY winter, we would probably save $5,000 over the course of a year on natural gas and electricity for domestic hot water, and are able to keep the (moderately insulated house with original double-hung windows) at a consistent 75-80. So everybody's happy.

Another way to look at it is that $10,000 is about half the price of a decent car, and the wood heat system starts paying you back immediately, instead of steadily draining your bank account the minute you drive it off the lot. It may be a poor analogy, since they're not interchangable, but it puts things into a modern price perspective.

There are about a million ways to set up a wood gasification system, some of which are explained in this forum in some (ongoing) detail. So I would encourage you to poke around and see what catches your fancy. I would say, offhand, that if you're faced with putting in a new heating system, hydronics (and infloor radiant if you can do that) is definitely the way to go. And since you would want a fossil-fuel backup anyway, maybe a good first step would be to install hydronic heat with a basic oil or gas boiler, and then start laying your plans for a gasifier at some point in the future. I really can't address your concerns about A/C (though I understand what you are saying) as we don't really need it this far north.

Hopefully others will jump in with some other suggestions, observations and questions.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Jan 10, 2008)

If I lived in VA, my priority would be AC, not heat! Maybe that's why I live in NY and drive North most times.

Sounds like you will need to decide how to distribute the heat, then take that into account when deciding on the heating device.  How about above-subfloor radient?


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## atlarge54 (Jan 10, 2008)

The best heating system ever invented is called "insulation" and your new home doesn't seem too well equipped. First I doubt you'll want to be w/o central air. The cost of a air cond/heat pump shouldn't be much more than just a/c. It wouldn't be a bad idea to have an HVAC pro look over the situation, I'll bet he'd recommend a two stage unit. If you've ever had in floor radiant you'd probably pay extra to have it again, especially since you're starting from scratch. You don't have a wood supply and you're looking at a wood burner. Purchasing wood has to put a big ouch on the payback. Your age and physical condition should be considered, I love cuttin' wood but the day will come when I won't be able to. It's a good idea to see how the locals stay warm, is this a new location for you? If you go with a boiler a sidearm for DHW will show you a short payback period. Good luck to you, let's save that oil for the 18 wheelers they're gonna need it.


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## wdc1160 (Jan 10, 2008)

> I’m betting that you probably can throw out valid ballpark figures.



I can do better than that your cash flow analysis will nearly match one of mine with a few exceptions.  I will make some generalzations.

This was from 2 years ago, but I have updated some of the numbers-- Bear with me.
You must know three things to find the variable payback rate (more improtant than fixed cost, fixed is easy)

I am not really a shoot from the hip guy.  Bad calculations end up in bad judgments. So if you need some of the numbers tweaked for your region.  Let me know I will correctem.  I plan on having a calclator posted online soon.  

Efficiency of appliance
Cost of fuel
= cost of 1 million BTU's

it's good your looking into cash flow -- it is a pillar of modern finance.  And, one the best tools for finding oportunity loss.


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## jebatty (Jan 10, 2008)

My rationalization for going with the Tarm Solo Plus 40. 1) had to do something, as old water jacket OWB went defunct last March; 2) we live in a rural area, and any fuel source other than wood makes no sense and electric is very expensive; 3) wanted something better than a campfire; 4) wanted something to brag about; 5) it looked like it really would be fun and an adventure to undertake this project; 6) the wife was willing.

No regrets -- all expectations met or exceeded.


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## Nofossil (Jan 10, 2008)

I've actually stayed in Wytheville - my mother in law is from Bluefield, WV.

While it's a different climate, my oil bills would be about the same as your K-1 if I hadn't gone the gasification route. I did mine earlier and perhaps simpler in some ways than Eric did, and my out-of-pocket was more like $7k.

Seems like you're on the cusp. If somebody makes a compact gasifier woodstove, that might serve your needs. If you want to keep the wood outside, a small gasifier boiler and enclosure would make sense. If the enclosure were insulated and big enough to hold several weeks of firewood as well as tools and lawnmower, it might take some of the curse off of the effort involved.

Storage is not necessary, but it makes your life easier. You might want to start without it, but plan to add it later. If you go with storage, that's yet another good reason to use radiant heat if at all possible - it can use much cooler stored water. I've just skipped two days of firebuilding by living off of my stored hot water.

Once you've bitten the bullet and added heat storage, many people also look at solar hot water panels for heating your hot water in the summertime.

I have a system with a gasifier, storage, and solar hot water. Far more writeup than any normal person would ever want to read on my site - link in my signature below.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Jan 10, 2008)

jebatty said:
			
		

> . . .  4) wanted something to brag about; 5) it looked like it really would be fun and  . . .6) the wife was willing.



Ihear that can lead to rug rats :gulp:


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 10, 2008)

If you factor in the fact that I paid $6,000 for mine compared to what you paid for yours, nofossil, I bet we're in the same ballpark.

I should add that I bought most of my copper, pumps, flat plate hx, chimney, etc. about 4 years ago (for my previous boiler), and prices have certainly risen since them.


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## jebatty (Jan 10, 2008)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> jebatty said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The spooks in Washington need your services, ISeeDeadBTUs. Your code-breaking skills are uncanny.


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## wdc1160 (Jan 10, 2008)

He would goto Washington just to be his ticket to get next to Pirro


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## caucapon (Jan 10, 2008)

Thanks for all replies. Special thanks to Eric, ABGWD4U, and nofossil for specifically addressing my concerns.

Insulation is pretty much a non-starter for us. A large part of this building's resale value is wrapped up in the all wood interior. My exterior walls are all massive logs of varying widths with large masonry chinked seams. Their appearance within the house is really impressive. That coupled with the red cedar interior woodwork offers a really special look. Almost everyone who enters drops his/her jaw. Can't risk losing that. While I could easily add additional insulation to the attic area, payback tends to be measured in decades, same with highly energy efficient windows.

Air conditioning is of minor significance here. While everyone looks for it while looking at existing houses for purchase, it actually tends to be used sparing. We are located in a unique sliver running along Virginia's southwestern border (zone #6). We are almost 2500 feet above sea level, hence cool and non-humid summer conditions. This elevation also tends to drive winter nighttime temps down relative to what I experienced during my many years in South Jersey.

Physical condition is always a big concern once you get past a certain age. At this exact moment I am in good to excellent condition, able to do a full day's physical work. Hopefully, this will continue; however, you never know.

I, too, enjoy the challenge of unconventional ventures. My wife and I have always explored different ways of doing many things, usually to the frustration of our tightly buttoned down relatives. I must confess that that type of insanity still flows through my veins. My wife is still up for such ventures, amazing after forty years together.

Backup heating systems will be Monitor heaters, a fireplace insert (unfortunately, located at one extreme end of the house), and electric resistance in two of the bedrooms.

I really don't want to install ducts in any part of this house. There are too many associated problems. Installing an interior boiler or furnace is possible, but not practical. The house comprises two immense rooms and a very large loft upstairs. There is little closet space. Were I to go this route, I'd probably want to build an addition to the house. This is not going to happen.  

Aside from the possibility of going with a wood gasifier, the only other attractive (to me) option would be the installation of a highly efficient, European style, mini-split heat pump system. Done right this would realistically cost about seven to eight thousand with most of the work being done by me. Payback on this type of system would not be quick; also, such an unconventional system might do little to increase property value. It is, however, a neat and clean solution that would provide heat and ac in one fell swoop.


The reason I am requesting info on payback and total installation cost is because heating with wood might just provide my biggest bang for buck spent. Wood can be quite cheap here. I suspect that I might be able to purchase decent hardwood for well under $100 a cord. The numerous national forests in this area can be harvested gratis under certain conditions. There is also the opportunity to purchase heavily wooded land for relatively little.  Careful lumbering might actually increase land value while providing me with years' worth of fuel. K1 fuel oil now costs about $3.50 a gallon; that price will only go up over time. The differential between wood and fossil fuels is growing larger with every passing year (here I am, preaching to the choir!).

However, I am concerned that the price of a reasonable install still might require an extended payback period. My wife and I may well stay here for fifteen to twenty years. Given our ages, however, that will always be a concern. Since I suspect that the addition of a wood boiler system will not increase my property's value (indeed, it may well reduce it with many buyers), getting my money's worth out of the investment over a five or six year period is a major consideration. If I can't expect compensation on the back end (resale), then I want it on the front (through my own usage).

In reading this and that concerning this subject, I have gotten the impression that more than a few individuals have spent in excess of fifteen thousand dollars for moderate systems. Even with all that's been stated above, such a high price tag discourages one from proceeding.

Here's the URL to a nifty and adjustable comparative fuel calculator. If this has been mentioned before, please accept my apologies for the duplication.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/experts/heatcalc.xls


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## jklingel (Jan 13, 2008)

FWIW, I just built a simple spread sheet to look at this very concern. It is not nit-picking elaborate, but I am certain it is close enough for reality. That said, if someone finds huge discrepancies, let me know and I'll re-examine my formulas. I never have liked that math stuff.... In one column, I started w/ the difference in cost between a "normal" boiler/heater/whatever you use and a spendy gasifier. I then invested that money at 8% APR, for kicks. In the second column, I started w/ my annual savings estimate, and then accumulated that year after year, in turn investing that money at 8% APR. Here are some examples of pay back times: (1) Investing $15,000 "extra" and saving $2000/yr, I broke even in the 12th yr. (2) At 10K and 2K, break-even happened at 7 yrs. (3) At 15K and 1500, it took 21 yrs. I hope that is what your original concern was. If you don't have access to SSs, or just don't want to dink, send me your numbers and I'll stick them in to my SS. Glad you asked; payback period is a very valid concern.


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 13, 2008)

You can't factor them in mathematically, but I think it's important to consider intangibles like a warmer house and better physical condition from handling the wood. You can also consider the environmental/national energy benefit from cleanly burning wood. I don't know how many barrels of cubic feet of natural gas I'll avoid burning over the course of my woodburning career (probably 50 years or better in a cold climate when all is said and done), but as a patriotic American, that's an important consideration to me as well.


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## wsurfer49 (Jan 13, 2008)

I am about the same place you are in researching alternatives to my current heating (older woodstove inside).  I have settled on the wood gasification boiler, place in an outbuilding and will probably start off with a fairly small storage capacity or none at all except the radiant in floor piping and maybe an old water heater.  

I think at least where I live (northern Arizona) the acceptance of an efficient alternative heating system will not devalue my property.  Certainly there will be people that won't be interested but as fuel prices continue the ever upward trend more people will be looking for this option and this will very likely be a favorable option.  

You have some different variables to consider so good luck to you, but take a good look here, lots of very good info.  Rob


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## jklingel (Jan 13, 2008)

Eric Johnson" date=" said:
			
		

> You can't factor them in mathematically, but I think it's important to consider intangibles like a warmer house and better physical condition from handling the wood. You can also consider the environmental/national energy benefit from cleanly burning wood. I don't know how many barrels of cubic feet of natural gas I'll avoid burning over the course of my woodburning career (probably 50 years or better in a cold climate when all is said and done), but as a patriotic American, that's an important consideration to me as well.


ROGER ALL THAT. WE, ESP YOU YOUNGER FOLKS, BETTER PAY HEED TO TAKING CARE OF MA EARTH. YOU ONLY GET ONE IN A LIFE TIME. LATER. J


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## steam man (Jan 31, 2008)

Let me take a different angle here. Off the top of my head by using as much fossil fuel as you do, it sounds like 5+years of payback. However, since most people don't remember the 70's oil crisis and fossil fuels should rise much faster than wood over the next twenty years, I would guess that using wood to diversify your energy consumption may be prudent. Oil demand is not going down. Keep in mind that wood takes a lot of work but with your potential supply you should be able to shrug off most bumps in the road.


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## eekster (Jan 31, 2008)

I live in a climate that temps are close to yours, maybe a little colder. I have two furnace with water to air exchangers and my house is 2400 sq. ft. I have about $8000.00 invested in mine with venting. I figured 4-5 year payback.. half way there. Also I don"t have to pay for wood which makes a difference for the cost.
    Keith


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## Burn-1 (Jan 31, 2008)

Going along the lines of steam man, certainly the currently volatile energy situation might make payback even more rapid but I will chime in with another important consideration which I mentioned many posts ago with regard to masonry heaters.

Whatever the added cost of a wood boiler system is, whether a refinanced mortgage, forgone savings, home equity loan, etc, you have made a long-term investment and if you have easy access to wood your operating costs should be pretty minimal between fuel, maintenance and spare parts and electricity for blowers and circulators. But more importantly you have hedged a risk. That is called *insurance*. If something happens to oil supplies in the near term let alone long term doubts about oil reserves then anyone with a wood boiler will pretty much still enjoy the same quality of life they do now if not better since you're not worried about the thermostat setting as much as you might be with oil, LP or natural gas especially in a rising cost environment. To paraphrase my Yankee grandfather, "You can always cut up your furniture and burn it but you can't go drill for oil in the back 40", (less swearing than in the original quote). We live in a just-in-time world and that will be changing quickly enough in the next few years that worrying about things like payback periods will be less meaningful because the alternatives just won't be there.


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## eekster (Jan 31, 2008)

I second that Burn 1. That was my thought when I invested in my boiler. Fuel prices will not be getting cheaper.
   Keith


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## Jersey Bill (Jan 31, 2008)

A simple system would be to install the wood boiler and storage tank outside and put a hot water fan coil unit inside, maybe in the crawl space. It sounds like the floor plan is open, so heating the main room would probably work pretty well for the whole house. 

You could even consider insulating the crawlspace and heating it with some of the hot air. That will give radiant heat to the whole 1st floor, and should make it to the back bedrooms. If the crawl space was clean enough, and insulated enough, you could even pressurize the crawl space, now hot air plenum, and put some floor supply registers around the 1st flr.

good luck!


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 31, 2008)

People laugh at my 40+ full cords of wood stacked behind the barn. Admittedly it's a hobby, but I see it as better than money in the bank. I can heat my house for free for at least the next four years. If I was nofossil, more like 10.


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## sled_mack (Jan 31, 2008)

First off - payback.  I put my system in 3 years ago and figured on a 6 year payback.  Meanwhile, oil prices have gone up so much, that it is now fully paid back.  I've got about $6k into my setup, but everything was cheaper 3 years ago.

If your options are open for delivery methods, I can't say enough good things about floor radiant.  Working in the crawl space will not be pleasant (I had the same problem in about 3/4 of my floor), but once it's done it is just fantastic.  The added benefit, is that you don't see any baseboard or radiators.  From how you describe your house, that may be a big factor for you.

Now, if AC is important, check out the high velocity systems.  Mine is called Spacepak.  I just put one in our house last year.  It uses a main trunk of square ducting then flexible tubing to the outlets.  Depending on what obstacles you have to work around, you can do this in 2 weekends easily.  And, I put mine in the crawl space under the house.  My house is an A-frame, so I couldn't get from one side to the other from above.

Do more research on the mini-splits.  I was about to put some of them in, at more cost than the high velocity, when I found out that it just wasn't going to work like I wanted.  They are good "area" coolers, but not house systems.

There is probably no payback on the AC system for me, but it feels great.


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## solarguy (Jan 31, 2008)

This is our 7th heating season w/ an OWB, we have our own timber lot & based upon our oil consumption, we will have saved $22,000.00 in fuel costs by the end of this heating system.
This number is based upon the average cost of oil per season for the past 7 years, low as $1.14 a gallon to high of $2.40 last winter, $3.00 for this year.  

We did the install in house, but the estimated cost would be around 11k the way we've set it up.
If we had to buy wood our breakeven point would occure this heating season.

Fuel oil will only continue to increase in price so the payback periods for wood fired boiler installs will only decrease.


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## guy01 (Feb 1, 2008)

I keep seeing you guys talk about when you can't do wood any more ,I just thought I'd throw in My 80 something father in law is still cutting and splitting about 30/40 FACE CORD  a year.
He sold wood on the side till he was over 70
Guy


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## eekster (Feb 1, 2008)

Guy, My grandfather also heated his house all his life. no splitter, axe and maul, he said thats how he got his exercise in winter
he was 89 when he passed away and my grandmother continued heating w/wood till she was 90 with some help from my folks.
  Hope I can keep up the "tradition". I like to cut wood in the winter and don"t mind it at all.
     Keith


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## Eric Johnson (Feb 1, 2008)

My dad just turned 76 and he still cuts and splits all his own firewood by hand, plus sawlogs from the family tree farm spring, summer and fall. He and my mom are in great shape, and I attribute it to the woodcutting.


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## reaperman (Feb 1, 2008)

caucapon said:
			
		

> Thanks for all replies. Special thanks to Eric, ABGWD4U, and nofossil for specifically addressing my concerns.
> 
> Insulation is pretty much a non-starter for us. A large part of this building's resale value is wrapped up in the all wood interior. My exterior walls are all massive logs of varying widths with large masonry chinked seams. Their appearance within the house is really impressive. That coupled with the red cedar interior woodwork offers a really special look. Almost everyone who enters drops his/her jaw. Can't risk losing that. While I could easily add additional insulation to the attic area, payback tends to be measured in decades, same with highly energy efficient windows.
> 
> ...



A bit off topic, but how about posting a few pictures of your home.  Sounds awsome!


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## Bob Rohr (Feb 1, 2008)

It would be nice to have an energy audit done on your home first.  Infiltration is a big concern on log homes.  If you can find an HVAC contractor with a blower door, that would be a great first step. With the info from the blower door you could preform a real accurate heat load calc.

Projecting any kind of heating cost comparison without knowing the actual loads is like putting the cart before the horse.  I have seen 2400 ft homes with loads under 30,000 btu/hr, and worked on leaky log construction homes the required 100,000 btu heaters!

Once you had some accurate data you could determine your best option.  The best money you could spend would b making your home as efficient as possible.  then build the heating and cooling system.

I'd wonder about buying firewood to burn at a 70% (a more realistic gasificiation number in my opinion).  Certainly the cost of firewood will increase with the cost of other energy.  You need to plug actual fuel costs in your area into a calculator to get the best answer.

I have been involved in a couple open plan homes that heat and cool just fine with 17 seer mini splits.  I hear some of the new inverter technology units approach 21 seer??  resale would b better with an efficient heating and cooling system.  I doubt a wood boiler would appeal to most home shoppers. 

I'm a huge fan of efficient wood burners, and all sort of alternate energy.  You need to be realistic in your choice.  Most of the wood burners here have access to cheap or free wood and the time and age  to operate the heaters that burn the fuel.

Run the numbers carefully before you spend thousands of dollars.

 hr


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## trehugr (Feb 1, 2008)

What is a blower door ? We have a log home. We spent alot of time this last season keeping the outside out and the inside in.


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## Willman (Feb 2, 2008)

A blower door is a high volume fan that is sealed up in a doorway. The fan is turned on and the tech goes around the house with a smoke device and notes the exit points. There is a manometer that registers the pressure in the dwelling. I know that there are certain numbers that denote an efficient house. Some modern construction requires fresh air to be introduced into house through a exhaust heat exchanger. Air infiltration is the greatest  energy waster. Where theres a leak on the pressure side there is a leak on the vacuum side. Sealing air leaks is the best return on investment. Can be very inexpensive.

Will


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## chrisfallis (Feb 5, 2008)

PaybacK?  That is a simple question for me.  We are converting an unheated porch into livable space and adding radiant floor heating to the kitchen and former porch space.   We have an ancient gas forced air furnace for part of the house annd a gravity feed boiler from the time of Queen Victoria that heats the other part of the house.  My thought was to tie the radiant heat lines into the old boiler and call it good.   The HVAC guy came out, looked at the cast iron pipes, saifd that there was no way in hell to open them up and suggested a $35K modern, high efficiency gas boiler just for the two new rooms of radiant heat.  Well, maybe that included a couple grand for the radiant installation......

After I reached for the nitroglycerine, I thought that this would be the perfect opportunity to press my case for a wood boilrer in the garage.  For half the price of a gas furnace, I can install a Garn in the garage, put in pumps, pipes, water to water and water to air heat exchangers and still be ahead of the game.  Last time I tried to do an apples to apples comparison was 11 years ago when I was replacing an old boiler that was on its last legs.  The Tarm I eventuially bought was $6K installed versus $3K for the gas boiler.  At a fuel savings of about $1500 per year, it didn't take long to recover the incremental investment. 

I haven't seen the specifics of the $35K bid for the new gas furnace.  I can't see how it should cost that much for 600 sqft of radiant heat.


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## heaterman (Feb 6, 2008)

Paybacks...........
I'll guarantee right now that this will turn into a RANT of some sort.

I get weary of the pragmatic, money and cost questions about ROI, (return on investment) . It's soooooo backward and short sighted. The line of thinking goes like this........ If I spend $11,000 of a wood fired system and my annual fuel costs are $2,500, how long will it take before I get my money back. If I didn't buy the wood burner and invested the money instead at 6% interest and continued to burn gas/oil what would the financial's look like then........ and on and on and on. There is far more to the decision than mere dollars and cents.

Have you ever stopped to think what our current national energy situation would be like if everyone took the most efficient route instead of the cheapest?  Let's just take one example that we missed the boat on in the last 30 years. Think about the millions of new homes constructed in the last decade and how much less energy would be used nationally if every one of them had been built with solar heating for the domestic hot water. Forget the energy dollars and think about the reduction on CO2 emissions alone. Why didn't they get built that way? Very simple my dear reader, the ONLY issue considered in the equation was initial investment $$.$$, not dependence on oil from other countries, not CO2 emissions, not sustainability, not environmental contamination from power plant pollution, oil drilling......need I go on? What are the hidden costs of not choosing to heat, cool, power or propel ourselves in the most efficient way available?

It's time we get off our collective duff and start making decisions based on a more holistic approach rather than just what does it cost me right here and right now. The long term costs of not embracing the best available technology for energy production and consumption are catching up with us in a big way and those costs will become much larger over the next ten years. (you heard it here first) I read an article about a builder who was proclaiming himself to be "green" in one of the downstate newspapers this past weekend. He was right as far as his insulating practices and the rest of the envelope treatment but fell far short of doing all that could be done. No solar, no zoning for the HVAC system, no high efficiency ground source heat pumps, not even a variable speed furnace. They are all "cost prohibitive and take dollars away from what the homebuyer really want's". end of quote.  So we wind up substituting granite counter tops, human car wash showers, fancy tray type ceilings etc. for things that would actually make a difference to our national security, the environment, the long term cost of ownership, sustainability. 

It's the American mindset which is programmed to expect cheap endless energy that is a major part of the problem. The sad truth of the matter is that those days are numbered if not already over unless fusion is perfected tomorrow. I got a call from a doctor a few weeks ago regarding high fuel costs for his new home. It's pretty much standard construction. R-17 walls, R-38 ceiling, lot's of glass, cathedral ceilings etc. We installed a condensing boiler and radiant floor in the house for him and he didn't scrimp on that. But he's wondering why it takes 300 gallons of propane a month to heat it. Well it's 6,700 sq ft for one thing. And how about the two person bathtub that gets filled everyday for the little ones daily dunk. 80 gallons of hot water down the drain. I wanted to say "THINK man, THINK!". ..........I'm too polite.  That's a classic illustration of what people expect but reality is creeping up on them.

I'm here to say that every dollar spent on any form of energy conservation will be returned many times over and often in ways that are unseen and not felt by the original spender of those $$.$$

Sorry............I knew I'd get over revved and wander all over the place on this topic.


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## eekster (Feb 6, 2008)

The only thing I can add is look at Europe. Where I grew up they are starting to start wind farms, which is awasom! I have been approached and hopefully, this will workout. We need to think about the future and our childrens future, I feel better every day knowing I"m trying to make a difference.  Hope you all agree. 
Keith


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## atlarge54 (Feb 6, 2008)

Heaterman I noticed a reference to The Oil Drum in one of your previous posts. Have you ever frequented any energy message boards? The old CWEI message board on yahoo (now moved to investorvillage.com)? I think peak oil is here to stay and most of our leaders are in denial mode. The next decade or two will see a whole new outlook on the American way of life. Americans have to be the most ignorant wasteful group of "smart" people in the world. What part of Mich. are you from? If I ever upgrade or build I'd probably hire you for some design or equipment. I'm located in NE Indiana very close to MI and Ohio.


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## Eric Johnson (Feb 6, 2008)

The good news is that we waste so much energy and oil now, that we could comfortably make some sensible adjustments (like solar on every new rooftop) that would buy us a lot more time. Of course, if we keep the blinders on too long, it will be too late. Hopefully that's not the point we're at with energy and the economy right now.


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## heaterman (Feb 6, 2008)

Atlarge........

Peak oil..........Just look at the world production charts since late 2004 early 2005. We are at peak production if not peak oil. Personally, I don't think it will be 10-20 years, more like 5-10 before the pinch is really on. $3.00 a gallon for fuel will be the good old days I'm afraid. 

As far as our leaders being in denial............I think they know all to well what is happening but they don't want to address it or say it out loud for fear of creating a worldwide panic and recession.  Might as well face the facts in my book. What do they think will happen if we continue to stick our heads in the sand? Doesn't add up using any logic I can generate. 

I agree 100% on the "wasteful group of smart people". Couldn't be more true.

I'm about 90 miles north of Grand Rapids in the Cadillac area and we have worked from Lansing up to the straits. I've designed jobs for people as far away as Idaho. Al Gore's internet is a wonderful thing.


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## Jim Post (Feb 6, 2008)

We need a change of mindset in this country....here is a very well done video that may get the dialog started...It's about 20 minutes long so dial up users may want to download the video for later viewing.

go to:  http://www.storyofstuff.com/

Enjoy!


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Feb 6, 2008)

heaterman said:
			
		

> Paybacks...........
> I'll guarantee right now that this will turn into a RANT of some sort.
> 
> I get weary of the pragmatic, money and cost questions about ROI, (return on investment) . It's soooooo backward and short sighted. The line of thinking goes like this........ If I spend $11,000 of a wood fired system and my annual fuel costs are $2,500, how long will it take before I get my money back. If I didn't buy the wood burner and invested the money instead at 6% interest and continued to burn gas/oil what would the financial's look like then........ and on and on and on. There is far more to the decision than mere dollars and cents.



With oil where it is, and where it's going, we're now at the point where the ROI catches up, anyway.  These systems _will_ pay for themselves, now.  They pay "dividends" at a better rate than most other investments, after a very short payoff period.

Joe


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## Tony H (Feb 6, 2008)

It looks like alot of ground has been covered with reference to ROI and such so I'll skip that. I live in northern Illinois and so the weather demands both heat and AC with extremes in both making the boiler system a reasonable solution to connect to my GFA furnace. 

One product I looked at and considered was one of the outdoor warm air furnaces they connect to the house with one duct (on the units I looked at) and with an open floor plan and some ceiling fans to circulate the air it could work for your main living areas and use baseboard AC to assist in the loft rooms.
BTW if you can purchase wood delivered and stacked for a reasonable price you don't have to worry as much about your future ability to collect the wood.
The cost of the outdoor warm air furnaces were alot less than a boiler and I recall there being a couple of members that priced or used these units hopefully they will see this and join in.


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## jebatty (Feb 6, 2008)

". . . and most of our leaders are in denial mode." I understand that in Japan no one has or dies from cancer. Denial really works! Wasn't it Pres Reagan who said (at least I've heard it attributed to him) that the truth really doesn't matter, and that if you repeat a lie frequently enough, it becomes the new truth? Haven't greed and gluttony been removed from the seven deadly sins? High 5 to that!

A couple of the 2008 New Year's Resolutions of my wife and I: seek out re-usable or re-fillable consumable products, reduce use of non-essential consumables which have containers of any kind, reduce all forms of waste, and compost. 

The first thing to go for me was all beverages, other than milk and home-brewed coffee and tea. Replaced by the refillable water bottle (usually with a few drops of lemon juice) and good-by to all liquid soft drinks and pseudo-health drinks.


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## Como (Feb 6, 2008)

Payback is an interesting topic, the on line comparisons seem way out on their assumptions, where we are moving to Propane is $3.30 a gallon, I am guessing that is currently on the high side, but I am also assuming it will only go up.

Hence my interest in wood. No natural gas, oil would have the same issues as Propane and Electricity, well.

Now there did use to be coal mines near by, they were closed due to a serious of explosions 110 year ago, perhaps I ned to start digging.


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Feb 7, 2008)

Durango said:
			
		

> Hence my interest in wood. No natural gas, oil would have the same issues as Propane and Electricity, well.



You can make your own biodiesel and run it in a properly-designed oil-fired system.

That's why I always recommend oil as the backup heat source, instead of LP.

Joe


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## Willman (Feb 7, 2008)

People in the know watch what the big boys are doing to spot trends. President Bush has a geothermal set up on his ranch in Texas. His parents had a wind turbine installed this winter at their Kennebunk summer "cottage". Hmmmm. Wonder if they discussed how much oil was left when the big oil cos. met ( in secret) with VP Cheney. Talk about staving off panic. Remember its not how much oil is out there, but how much is actually buyable, at a decent price. Russia took over their oil company. China's energy appetite is growing everyday fueled by all the US $$$$ we send them. We reap what we sow. 
Will


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Feb 7, 2008)

Willman said:
			
		

> People in the know watch what the big boys are doing to spot trends. President Bush has a geothermal set up on his ranch in Texas. His parents had a wind turbine installed this winter at their Kennebunk summer "cottage". Hmmmm. Wonder if they discussed how much oil was left when the big oil cos. met ( in secret) with VP Cheney. Talk about staving off panic. Remember its not how much oil is out there, but how much is actually buyable, at a decent price. Russia took over their oil company. China's energy appetite is growing everyday fueled by all the US $$$$ we send them. We reap what we sow.



Actually, the Bush place in Kennebunkport is almost entirely heated by propane.  And they have a solar hot water system.  Always amused me...

I don't think there's a drop of oil being used for heating on that entire peninsula...

Joe


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## Como (Feb 7, 2008)

BrownianHeatingTech said:
			
		

> Durango said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What does properly designed system entail? We might have a source for bio diesel.

In Colorado Propane seems to be king, never see oil. I am guessing because it  easier and has been cheaper.


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Feb 7, 2008)

Durango said:
			
		

> What does properly designed system entail? We might have a source for bio diesel.



Certain fuel system components may not be compatible with biodiesel, on a chemical level.  When I install systems, I special-order components that are specifically rated for biodiesel.  Your system could be fine, as-is.  Or not.  You should find someone who is familiar with biodiesel and have the system checked to make sure there are no questionable components.

Joe


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## Como (Feb 7, 2008)

Thanks, that makes sense, currently forced air propane which will be switched to radiant, so an Oil or Propane Boiler would be new. Propane has the advantage of we have the tank and we will need it for cooking.


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## Willman (Feb 7, 2008)

Link to article on Bush windpower project.   http://www.practicalenvironmentalist.com/?s=skystream

Will


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## Willman (Feb 7, 2008)

Heres President Bush's  write up. Who would've thought.  http://tinyurl.com/358qjk
Will


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