# Cub engine queston?



## smokinj (Jul 22, 2013)

Cant quite figure this out. Had no issue with the cub until yesterday. It now runs rough at wot and oil leak seems to be coming from the top of the fly wheel housing(Oil leak started two weeks ago)But just now started to run rough? Runs fine at idle to half throttle.


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## Jags (Jul 22, 2013)

Jay - did you do piston/rings/cylinder work on this engine?


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## smokinj (Jul 22, 2013)

Jags said:


> Jay - did you do piston/rings/cylinder work on this engine?


 
No but I got great compression and will smoke a little when first started. Spark plug is dry. Ran great when I put it away last Sunday.


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## Ashful (Jul 22, 2013)

Before suspecting the worst, I'd check the breather assembly. These get gummed up on those K301's, and can cause some of the issues you describe. In fact, are you sure the oil is not leaking from the breather, itself?


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## smokinj (Jul 22, 2013)

Joful said:


> Before suspecting the worst, I'd check the breather assembly. These get gummed up on those K301's, and can cause some of the issues you describe. In fact, are you sure the oil is not leaking from the breather, itself?


 
No I didn't have much time to check. I ran through the simple stuff. Spark plug wires and coil. Then I jump on the deere and finish the lawn.


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## Jags (Jul 22, 2013)

The reason I ask is that it sounds like you have blow by (coming out the breather).  That is usually a sign of rings.  Does the plug look nice and dark tan or is it sooty looking?


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## smokinj (Jul 22, 2013)

Jags said:


> The reason I ask is that it sounds like you have blow by (coming out the breather). That is usually a sign of rings. Does the plug look nice and dark tan or is it sooty looking?


 
Sooty looking.


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## Jags (Jul 22, 2013)

smokinj said:


> Sooty looking.


 
Yeah - you are burning oil.  The higher the RPM the more oil it will pump.  Check your breather to make sure it isn't just plugged solid (and it might be), but I hate to break the bad news, it sounds like it is time to pull the motor apart.


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## Bocefus78 (Jul 22, 2013)

Will painting it green and yellow help?


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## smokinj (Jul 22, 2013)

Jags said:


> Yeah - you are burning oil. The higher the RPM the more oil it will pump. Check your breather to make sure it isn't just plugged solid (and it might be), but I hate to break the bad news, it sounds like it is time to pull the motor apart.


 
The compression seems way to high and the lack of smoke seem that the rings are at least in ok shape wouldn't think?


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## smokinj (Jul 22, 2013)

Bocefus78 said:


> Will painting it green and yellow help?


 
As long as it has a 301or bigger and a 3 speed  I am all good.....


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## Jags (Jul 22, 2013)

smokinj said:


> The compression seems way to high and the lack of smoke seem that the rings are at least in ok shape wouldn't think?


 
Well...You would think so.  It is possible for the oil ring to be shot, yet the compression rings are still doing their job.  "Check the breather" is step number one.

Don't take me as the only voice of reason, hopefully we will hear from others, but K series Kohlers are about as simple as they get.


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## smokinj (Jul 22, 2013)

Jags said:


> Well...You would think so. It is possible for the oil ring to be shot, yet the compression rings are still doing their job. "Check the breather" is step number one.
> 
> Don't take me as the only voice of reason, hopefully we will hear from others, but K series Kohlers are about as simple as they get.


 
I am not just throwing it out there. Rebuilding it not that out of the question. Wanting to repaint the whole thing anyways. I will check the breather and pull the head see whats up for sure first.


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## Jags (Jul 22, 2013)

smokinj said:


> I am not just throwing it out there. Rebuilding it not that out of the question. Wanting to repaint the whole thing anyways. I will check the breather and pull the head see whats up for sure first.


 

Yep, see what kind of carbon is deposited on the head.  A big build up of carbon can also cause pre-ignition at higher speeds.


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## lukem (Jul 22, 2013)

I don't think we've confirmed the breather is oiled up...could just be a failed seal.

If you were burning oil, it would smoke...a lot...and not just on startup.  You might have a bad valve seal that make is smoke on startup.  You might have a sooty plug because you are running rich.  You might be leaking oil from the jug gasket and/or the crank seal.  It might be running rough because you just now fouled the plug enough, or you might have a weak coil, or it might be starving for fuel, or....

That's a lot of mights.  Figure out where that oil is coming from before you tear down the engine.  Could be simple.  Or it could be time for a rebuild.


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## Jags (Jul 22, 2013)

Another mention of the breather broke loose an old memory.  I have actually had the internals on one of the breathers rattle loose.  They do act as a one way valve, if this ain't working correctly, it can allow for leaks and actually cause weird stuff to happen.


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## smokinj (Jul 22, 2013)

lukem said:


> I don't think we've confirmed the breather is oiled up...could just be a failed seal.
> 
> If you were burning oil, it would smoke...a lot...and not just on startup. You might have a bad valve seal that make is smoke on startup. You might have a sooty plug because you are running rich. You might be leaking oil from the jug gasket and/or the crank seal. It might be running rough because you just now fouled the plug enough, or you might have a weak coil, or it might be starving for fuel, or....
> 
> That's a lot of mights. Figure out where that oil is coming from before you tear down the engine. Could be simple. Or it could be time for a rebuild.


 
Oh yea....Best thing though about the 301 is the whole rebuild kit is under 75.00. Plus machine work probably another 50.00. But ti could just be a blown head gasket or clogged breather.


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## smokinj (Jul 22, 2013)

Jags said:


> Another mention of the breather broke loose an old memory. I have actually had the internals on one of the breathers rattle loose. They do act as a one way valve, if this ain't working correctly, it can allow for leaks and actually cause weird stuff to happen.


 
Gives me a good game plan.


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## smokinj (Jul 22, 2013)

Ok got the head off. Iamb seeing wet oil spots on the gasket. Could this be do to over filling oil?


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## MasterMech (Jul 22, 2013)

Well, you already got the head off, but I would've changed the plug and if no change, check the points. (gap and condition)

Pull the air filter

Check to see if it responds to carb adjustments

Plugged breather would likely produce smoke while running and oil leakage at the gov shaft.

But since the head is off, check the piston for any noticeable lateral play @ TDC.


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## smokinj (Jul 22, 2013)

Yep your right if I wasn't through this thing already. Its very strong so that's what made me pull the head right away. Going to have it milled and new gasket. Just make it stronger either way. I GOT A GUY FOR THAT.  Not sure that it but pretty cheap.


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## Jags (Jul 23, 2013)

MM's suggestion of points is another area I would look at.  I have also had a couple of condensers go bad, too.


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## smokinj (Jul 23, 2013)

Jags said:


> MM's suggestion of points is another area I would look at. I have also had a couple of condensers go bad, too.


 
There is fresh oil on the head gasket.


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## Ashful (Jul 23, 2013)

Just re-read the OP, and realized I was focused on the oil leak, not the running rough. Yeah, those points are severely heavy duty, for such a small engine, but they don't last forever!

I wonder, have you checked your RPM at WOT? Sure you're not severely over-reving? That's easy to do, given the hokey governor / throttle stop setup they have on those old Kohlers.

Oil on the headgasket... don't assume it's rings.  These Kohlers seem to suffer bad valve guides before rings.  That said, I'd still be changing that breather and running with that, before digging any further.


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## smokinj (Jul 23, 2013)

Joful said:


> Just re-read the OP, and realized I was focused on the oil leak, not the running rough. Yeah, those points are severely heavy duty, for such a small engine, but they don't last forever!
> 
> I wonder, have you checked your RPM at WOT? Sure you're not severely over-reving? That's easy to do, given the hokey governor / throttle stop setup they have on those old Kohlers.


 
That would make since. Everything was fine when I put it up. Change the oil and problems started. The governor is just pop over and over.


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## Ashful (Jul 23, 2013)

While you have the head off, pull the valve springs, and check the play in your valve guides.  Those guides are a wear item, and fairly simple to replace.


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## smokinj (Jul 23, 2013)

Found the problem..........Any last guess?


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## Ashful (Jul 23, 2013)

Don't keep us waiting, j!  What was it?


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## smokinj (Jul 23, 2013)

Choke stuck.


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## Jags (Jul 23, 2013)

Well...at least it was easy.  That should have affected all range of rpm.  No fair.  Bad clues.


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## smokinj (Jul 23, 2013)

It ran at idle fine. It was stuck have open. I HAD the same clues to work with. I will have a milled head and gasket going back on to.


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## Jags (Jul 23, 2013)

A stuck choke has nothing to do with leaking oil.  Did you ever get a chance to chase that down?


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## smokinj (Jul 23, 2013)

Best I can tell it was surging hard under a load with possaible a litter to much oil. Motor seems way to tight to have bad rings. New gasket sealer on everything I touch. We shall see in a couple days.


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## smokinj (Jul 23, 2013)

What's the best way to clean the piston and vaulve carbon deposits?


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## smokinj (Jul 23, 2013)

Ok written on the top of the piston std 205 04 13a this mean anything to anybody?


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## charly (Jul 23, 2013)

smokinj said:


> Ok written on the top of the piston std 205 04 13a this mean anything to anybody?


It's a standard size piston, otherwise it would be stamped . 010 , .020, etc , if it had been bored oversize at anytime.... Seafoam sprayed on carbon and left to sit overnight will loosen things up..try not to gouge anything .. soft wire brush.. I was good with a razor blade, hold it very flat and go easy... Watch you don't dig the gasket surface as well.


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## smokinj (Jul 23, 2013)

Thanks best I could find 400 grit and some keroseen.


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## salecker (Jul 23, 2013)

smokinj said:


> That would make since. Everything was fine when I put it up. Change the oil and problems started. The governor is just pop over and over.


Mabey it was the oil,modern oil is different than the old stuff,mabey it dosn't like some of the additives.


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## MasterMech (Jul 24, 2013)

smokinj said:


> What's the best way to clean the piston and vaulve carbon deposits?


Scrape away what you can, sea foam des work to loosen the stubborn stuff.  It's not critical to get it perfectly clean.  Only the gasket surface has to be spotless.


salecker said:


> Mabey it was the oil,modern oil is different than the old stuff,mabey it dosn't like some of the additives.


I run state of the art synthetic oil in some 50 year old equipment.  If its been taken care of to this point, it will not create issues now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2


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## Jags (Jul 24, 2013)

Brake fluid also can work wonders for loosening stuff up.


Sent from my iToilet using Wipetalk2


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## Ashful (Jul 24, 2013)

Jags said:


> Brake fluid also can work wonders for loosening stuff up.


 
Like your nice paint job?



Jags said:


> Sent from my iToilet using Wipetalk2


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## Jags (Jul 24, 2013)

Joful said:


> Like your nice paint job?


 
I don't recall that, but then again, I don't recall spilling it on paint.



Sent from my iCalculator using tapingtalk 2


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## MasterMech (Jul 24, 2013)

Jags said:


> Brake fluid also can work wonders for loosening stuff up.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iToilet using Wipetalk2


Works the best on all that pesky paint they have on cars nowadays. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2


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## Jags (Jul 24, 2013)

I missed the part where we moved from K series cast iron Kohlers to cars.


Sent from my iRefrigerator using coldtalk 2


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## smokinj (Jul 24, 2013)

How about cleaning the valves seats? Any good tips here? There is a carbon build up on that lip.


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## Ashful (Jul 24, 2013)

smokinj said:


> How about cleaning the valves seats? Any good tips here? There is a carbon build up on that lip.


 
Yikes... tread carefully, there!

If solvent and a rag doesn't work, I guess I'd be trying lapping compounds, testing with the least aggressive first.


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## smokinj (Jul 24, 2013)

Joful said:


> Yikes... tread carefully, there!
> 
> If solvent and a rag doesn't work, I guess I'd be trying lapping compounds, testing with the least aggressive first.


 
Applying by hand?


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## Plow Boy (Jul 24, 2013)

u sure do have a lot of "i" stuff jags


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## Ashful (Jul 24, 2013)

smokinj said:


> Applying by hand?


 

I'd wait for MasterMech answer this, since I'm just a hobbyist, but I'd worry about the actual valve seat being clean, not the area around it. So, if there's crap actually on the valve seat, preventing the valve from sealing, and assuming you don't need to re-cut the seats, I'd be lapping the valve in place. That means applying some lapping compound, and using the little suction cup tool to lap (doesn't take much!). You can clean the flat tops of the valves with a razor blade, and clean the stems the same way (very carefully!), but keep the razor away from the seats.


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## smokinj (Jul 24, 2013)

Joful said:


> I'd wait for MasterMech answer this, since I'm just a hobbyist, but I'd worry about the actual valve seat being clean, not the area around it. So, if there's crap actually on the valve seat, preventing the valve from sealing, and assuming you don't need to re-cut the seats, I'd be lapping the valve in place. That means applying some lapping compound, and using the little suction cup tool to lap (doesn't take much!). You can clean the flat tops of the valves with a razor blade, and clean the stems the same way (very carefully!), but keep the razor away from the seats.


 
Yea I don't want the crap in the block. Theres not much and I had a kerosene rag on it since last nigh. Maybe a piece of cake or its going to be a pain in the butt. Valves have a nice crisp angle on them so there good.


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## Jags (Jul 24, 2013)

Don't use any lapping compound unless you are gonna tear down that engine.  Pretty tough to insure that some doesn't go where it shouldn't.  Lapping is usually done with a tool (power tool).  There is an inexpensive method that looks like a dart that kids stick to windows, and it is run with a drill and lapping compound.

If the carbon on the valve seats is not evenly distributed it tells be that there is a hot spot.  Just a matter of time before she burns through if it is not addressed.


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## Jags (Jul 24, 2013)

Plow Boy said:


> u sure do have a lot of "i" stuff jags


 

I'm in IT - what can I say?


Sent from my iCoke using fizztalk 2.


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## Ashful (Jul 24, 2013)

Jags said:


> Don't use any lapping compound unless you are gonna tear down that engine. Pretty tough to insure that some doesn't go where it shouldn't.


 
Easy enough to remove these flat head valves for cleaning. Pull breather, pair of keepers, valve slides out. Not really a big deal, and that's as much tear-down is recommended in the shop manual for doing a valve job on this engine.



Jags said:


> Lapping is usually done with a tool (power tool).


 
??? Not on a Cub engine!



Jags said:


> There is an inexpensive method that looks like a dart that kids stick to windows, and it is run with a drill and lapping compound.


 
Yep... this is all I've ever seen anyone use on these.  However, I've never seen one run on a drill.  Usually spun between the palms like kids pretending to start a fire with a stick.



Jags said:


> If the carbon on the valve seats is not evenly distributed it tells be that there is a hot spot. Just a matter of time before she burns through if it is not addressed.


 

You nailed it. If there's crap on the seat, it's usually time to re-cut and lap in a new pair of valves.


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## smokinj (Jul 24, 2013)

Jags said:


> Don't use any lapping compound unless you are gonna tear down that engine. Pretty tough to insure that some doesn't go where it shouldn't. Lapping is usually done with a tool (power tool). There is an inexpensive method that looks like a dart that kids stick to windows, and it is run with a drill and lapping compound.
> 
> If the carbon on the valve seats is not evenly distributed it tells be that there is a hot spot. Just a matter of time before she burns through if it is not addressed.


 
Haha.....Its consistent and there not much there. Just don't want it falling into the engine. Kerosene rag may have loosen it up enough I can wipe it off. Head gasket will not be here until Friday afternoon so I can really tweak it out. Should even have time to at-least polish the head to.
Guy said it was re-built 4 years ago and everything I am seeing says he is right.


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## Jags (Jul 24, 2013)

Joful said:


> Easy enough to remove these flat head valves for cleaning. Pull breather, pair of keepers, valve slides out. Not really a big deal, and that's as much tear-down is recommended in the shop manual for doing a valve job on this engine.
> 
> ??? Not on a Cub engine!
> 
> ...


 
I watched a machine shop lap the valves on a short block I did years ago. Yes, it was a large machine. I also have the suction cup tool and use it on a drill. Works great. (mine only has one suction cup, not the double ended kind.)


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## smokinj (Jul 24, 2013)

Here you go any questions? http://gardentractorpullingtips.com/valvecam.htm#top


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## smokinj (Jul 24, 2013)

Jags said:


> Pulling the valve and cleaning it does not a lap job make. You have to lap the valve into the seat. The seat is integral to the block.
> 
> I watched a machine shop lap the valves on a short block I did years ago. Yes, it was a large machine. I also have the suction cup tool and use it on a drill. Works great.


 
That is correct other than most would use the hand tool for the kohler flat head. I don't think its going to take much other than cleaned.


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## Jags (Jul 24, 2013)

smokinj said:


> That is correct other than most would use the hand tool for the kohler flat head. I don't think its going to take much other than cleaned.


 
That is good news.

I actually pulled the first part that you quoted, Jay. I think I misunderstood Joful.


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## Ashful (Jul 24, 2013)

Jags said:


> I watched a machine shop lap the valves on a short block I did years ago. Yes, it was a large machine. I also have the suction cup tool and use it on a drill. Works great. (mine only has one suction cup, not the double ended kind.)


 

Grinding/cutting valve seats is usually a machine operation, while lapping valves to those seats is generally done by hand on garden tractors.

To respond to your first sentence (deleted), you actually can buy new valve seats for the K301, which are pressed into the block. If your block already has replaceable seats, you can pull them and press in the new ones.  On a stock K301, you first have to machine the rebate to accept the replacement seats.


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## Jags (Jul 24, 2013)

Joful said:


> Grinding/cutting valve seats is usually a machine operation, while lapping valves to those seats is generally done by hand on garden tractors.
> 
> To respond to your first sentence, you actually can buy new valve seats for the K301, which are pressed into the block. If your block already has replaceable seats, you can pull them and press in the new ones, but on a K301, you first have to machine the rebate to accept the replacement seats.


 
Yep - that is what they did on the short block I had work done on.  Pretty interesting operation.  Since they already had the mill setup for the proper seat position, they just hooked up the lapping tool and did the job right there.


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## smokinj (Jul 24, 2013)

Joful said:


> grinding/cutting valve seats is a machine operation.
> 
> lapping valves to those seats is generally done by hand on garden tractors.
> 
> To respond to your first sentence, you actually can buy new valve seats for the K301, which are pressed into the block. If your block already has replaceable seats, you can pull them and press in the new ones, but on a K301, you first have to machine the rebate to accept the replacement seats.


 
I hopping it not be needed. Here is a line from Brian's Cub page see what you all make of it?

 "_FYI - In most cases, worn valve guides don't necessarily need to be replaced. They can be repaired with a thin-wall bronze liner, like the ones installed in automotive cylinder heads. Also, a bronze liner will last longer than a cast iron guide because bronze retains more oil for better lubrication for the valve stem."_


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## Jags (Jul 24, 2013)

I would imagine to use a liner of that type you would need to ream the guides to a specific spec.  Dunno, never used the liner stuff.


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## smokinj (Jul 24, 2013)

Jags said:


> I would imagine to use a liner of that type you would need to ream the guides to a specific spec. Dunno, never used the liner stuff.


 
That makes since now. Thanks


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## Ashful (Jul 24, 2013)

Those guides are too easy to replace to bother re-lining. You basically tap them with a thread using a hand tap, thead a piece of all-thread into them, and use a nut with washer to draw them out. Then you hammer the new ones in (can do by hand, but I prefer to use a $10 drive tool for the pneumatic hammer) to a specified depth. This is the only tricky part, as you don't want to overshoot that depth (easy to do). Then you hand ream them (I can loan you the reamer, which was a little 'spensive), and drop your new valves in. Easy peasy.

Actually, I can loan you the drive tool, if I'm already sending you the reamer.  Otherwise, buying your own drive tool is probably about the same as the cost shipping mine.


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## smokinj (Jul 24, 2013)

Joful said:


> Those guides are too easy to replace to bother re-lining. You basically tap them with a thread using a hand tap, thead a piece of all-thread into them, and use a nut with washer to draw them out. Then you hammer the new ones in (can do by hand, but I prefer to use a $10 drive tool for the pneumatic hammer) to a specified depth. This is the only tricky part, as you don't want to overshoot that depth (easy to do). Then you hand ream them (I can loan you the reamer, which was a little 'spensive), and drop your new valves in. Easy peasy.
> 
> Actually, I can loan you the drive tool, if I'm already sending you the reamer. Otherwise, buying your own drive tool is probably about the same as the cost shipping mine.


 
I will get a much more detailed look tonight. I learned a lot and if it needs it I will take you up on that.


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## MasterMech (Jul 24, 2013)

I highly doubt a recently rebuilt K series engine has any significant wear on the valve guides. If the guides and the valve stem are tight, there is no reason you can't lap the valves if you want. Remove the keepers and springs, which you probably already have done to check for valve guide wear, and clean things up the best you can. The seats can be re-cut by hand with a special set of tools (which can also be used in a drill press or Bridgeport) but try to borrow them as they can be a bit pricey if this is a hobby job. In your case, I'm betting the seats are clean with no pitting anyways so recutting them will not be necessary. Lap the vales in using fine compound and either the suction cup type to or a lapping tool that kind of resembles an egg beater. Do not do so with a drill. A light touch is necessary and reversing direction as well. Grind by rotating in one direction and then rotating a bit farther in the other, keeping the valve in light contact with the seat. Continue until you see a light grey band appear all the way around the valve face that's a consistent width. Use the compound sparingly and when you are done, make sure you get it all off. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO FLUSH THE COMPOUND OUT WITH A SOLVENT. You are likely to rinse grit into places you definitely do not want it.


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## smokinj (Jul 24, 2013)

MasterMech said:


> I highly doubt a recently rebuilt K series engine has any significant wear on the valve guides. If the guides and the valve stem are tight, there is no reason you can't lap the valves if you want. Remove the keepers and springs, which you probably already have done to check for valve guide wear, and clean things up the best you can. The seats can be re-cut by hand with a special set of tools (which can also be used in a drill press or Bridgeport) but try to borrow them as they can be a bit pricey if this is a hobby job. In your case, I'm betting the seats are clean with no pitting anyways so recutting them will not be necessary. Lap the vales in using fine compound and either the suction cup type to or a lapping tool that kind of resembles an egg beater. Do not do so with a drill. A light touch is necessary and reversing direction as well. Grind by rotating in one direction and then rotating a bit farther in the other, keeping the valve in light contact with the seat. Continue until you see a light grey band appear all the way around the valve face that's a consistent width. Use the compound sparingly and when you are done, make sure you get it all off. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO FLUSH THE COMPOUND OUT WITH A SOLVENT. You are likely to rinse grit into places you definitely do not want it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2


 
Yea its is just a hobby for sure and full time wood hauler. I am into this tractor so far under 600.00. Right is right and cheap is better. I still got paint and tires to go.  But I will get a better look at it tonight.


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## smokinj (Jul 24, 2013)

Looking closely and wipe it down again it looks good real good. I THINK the rest will come off just by wiping it with paper towel and kerosene


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## Jags (Jul 25, 2013)

Jeesh - no love for the drill.  A reversible with an accurate trigger and it is done in no time.


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## smokinj (Jul 25, 2013)

Jags said:


> Jeesh - no love for the drill. A reversible with an accurate trigger and it is done in no time.


 
On these kohler doing it by hand takes just a few seconds to a couple mins. That it. Drill or press would be to much of a chance of over kill quick.


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## Jags (Jul 25, 2013)

I guess I will have to go tell the engines that I have done this to, to quit running right.


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## smokinj (Jul 25, 2013)

Jags said:


> I guess I will have to go tell the engines that I have done this to, to quit running right.


 
Well my engine dose not need it at all......After cleaning it up again last night it looks brand new. Have you done a flat head kohler before?


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## Jags (Jul 25, 2013)

smokinj said:


> Well my engine dose not need it at all......After cleaning it up again last night it looks brand new. Have you done a flat head kohler before?


 
At least 4 of them. I currently run two - my yard hauler and my small mower (both 12hp). I have freshened up both at some point. (1976 and 1977 with mega run hours).


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## smokinj (Jul 25, 2013)

Jags said:


> At least 4 of them. I currently run two - my yard hauler and my small mower (both 12hp). I have freshened up both at some point. (1976 and 1977 with mega run hours).
> View attachment 106929


 
I would not quite then. Nothing quite like the Sound of a 301k.  Is that an Allis?


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## Jags (Jul 25, 2013)

I have also done a 10hp that was on a high wheel case and a 16hp that currently mows my mothers yard (same AC tractor as mine, just the 16hp version and a bit newer).


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## smokinj (Jul 25, 2013)

Jags said:


> I have also done a 10hp that was on a high wheel case and a 16hp that currently mows my mothers yard (same AC tractor as mine, just the 16hp version and a bit newer).


 
Yea 10 to 16 better much the same. Is that an Allis?


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## Jags (Jul 25, 2013)

smokinj said:


> Is that an Allis?


 
Yep - hydro Allis Chalmers. When the end of the world comes, the cockroaches will be riding these things. I also have a B10 at the cabin(1964), but that has a cast Briggs, so I guess it doesn't count.


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## smokinj (Jul 25, 2013)

Jags said:


> Yep - hydro Allis Chalmers. When the end of the world comes, the cockroaches will be riding these things. I also have a B10 at the cabin, but that has a cast Briggs, so I guess it doesn't count.


 
You got that right. My head should be done and I have 24hrs before the head gasket gets here. What should I do with my polishing equipment?


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## Jags (Jul 25, 2013)

Fugetaboutit.  Other than just cleaning things up all nice, nice - slap that sucker back together and beat it like a rented mule.


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## smokinj (Jul 25, 2013)

Jags said:


> Fugetaboutit. Other than just cleaning things up all nice, nice - slap that sucker back together and beat it like a rented mule.


 
LOL it is amazing a 301 12 hp will spank the crap out of a modern 22hp.


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## Jags (Jul 25, 2013)

Two different critters, Jay.  The 12HP in that old iron was treated as a tractor, tractor speeds, tractor gearing, etc.  The newer stuff is designed different.  Fast mower deck speeds for extra lift and mulching.  The zero turns have fantastic ground speeds and stuff like that.

Do you realize that your 12HP really only has 9.4 brake HP?  Yep - even then they played with the "advertising".  It only got worse.


----------



## Ashful (Jul 25, 2013)

I still say you have the wrong seat on that tricycle, Jags. Should look something like this:









Jags said:


> Do you realize that your 12HP really only has 9.4 brake HP? Yep - even then they played with the "advertising". It only got worse.


 
Wow, really?  That K301 does have some power.  I have two Deere's with 25 hp (757 ZTrak (gas) and 855 (diesel)).  I wonder what they really pull on the dyno.


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## Jags (Jul 25, 2013)

Joful said:


> I still say you have the wrong seat on that tricycle, Jags. Should look something like this:


 
I have the original butt spanker for it.  Trust me, I have the right seat on it.


----------



## smokinj (Jul 25, 2013)

Jags said:


> I have the original butt spanker for it. Trust me, I have the right seat on it.


 
lol That's funny!


----------



## Jags (Jul 25, 2013)

Joful said:


> Wow, really? That K301 does have some power. I have two Deere's with 25 hp (757 ZTrak (gas) and 855 (diesel)). I wonder what they really pull on the dyno.


 
Dunno - I find it interesting that you can go to the farm store - or wherever - and buy a 36" law mower with a 20HP engine.  It doesn't really make a whole lotta sense to me....unless that 20hp isn't really what it appears to be.

The K series was just a brute with a bunch of torque.


----------



## smokinj (Jul 25, 2013)

Jags said:


> Dunno - I find it interesting that you can go to the farm store - or wherever - and buy a 36" law mower with a 20HP engine. It doesn't really make a whole lotta sense to me....unless that 20hp isn't really what it appears to be.
> 
> The K series was just a brute with a bunch of torque.


 
And sounds like a beast at wot with a load! I will say my jd is a whole lot easier on the butt. I need to get me a jags seat!


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## lukem (Jul 25, 2013)

Got any local mower shops with bone yard out back?  You could probably pick up a good seat from one of those on the cheap.


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## smokinj (Jul 25, 2013)

lukem said:


> Got any local mower shops with bone yard out back? You could probably pick up a good seat from one of those on the cheap.


 
Take a look at post #73 not going to find that in a bone yard. My 1971 seat is mint but its no Jagsseat.....


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## Jags (Jul 25, 2013)

I have a buddy that is the head of the parts department for industrial equipment.  The seat on the Allis and the Case were both "dead" inventory that they wanted to purge.  The big one on the tractor was over $800 new.


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## lukem (Jul 25, 2013)

smokinj said:


> Take a look at post #73 not going to find that in a bone yard. My 1971 seat is mint but its no Jagsseat.....


 

Yeah...not going to find one of those, but you might find something better than you have.

The guy I used to mow for had a Michigan suspension seat on the diesel dixie chopper and it was nice.  One of our contracts had a large area (about 6-7 acres) of ground squirrel infested former cornfield planted in grass.  Nobody could take it for more than an hour at full speed without feeling like they should be pi$$ing blood at the end of the day.  That seat fixed that, but it was big money.  It paid for itself pretty quick because we could mow it that much faster.


----------



## smokinj (Jul 25, 2013)

lukem said:


> Yeah...not going to find one of those, but you might find something better than you have.
> 
> The guy I used to mow for had a Michigan suspension seat on the diesel dixie chopper and it was nice. One of our contracts had a large area (about 6-7 acres) of ground squirrel infested former cornfield planted in grass. Nobody could take it for more than an hour at full speed without feeling like they should be pi$$ing blood at the end of the day. That seat fixed that, but it was big money. It paid for itself pretty quick because we could mow it that much faster.


 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/GRAMMER-MSG...=BI_Heavy_Equipment_Parts&hash=item1e7abb281b
I will take this one...


----------



## smokinj (Jul 25, 2013)

lukem said:


> Yeah...not going to find one of those, but you might find something better than you have.
> 
> The guy I used to mow for had a Michigan suspension seat on the diesel dixie chopper and it was nice. One of our contracts had a large area (about 6-7 acres) of ground squirrel infested former cornfield planted in grass. Nobody could take it for more than an hour at full speed without feeling like they should be pi$$ing blood at the end of the day. That seat fixed that, but it was big money. It paid for itself pretty quick because we could mow it that much faster.


 
My Dad was a cabinet maker/ Funny story he always said going through door ways. We can replace your knuckles cheaper than the cabinet. Guess that means stock seat for me.


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## lukem (Jul 25, 2013)

smokinj said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/GRAMMER-MSG...=BI_Heavy_Equipment_Parts&hash=item1e7abb281b
> I will take this one...


 

Need to tape some blocks to your boots to reach the pedals with that one.


----------



## smokinj (Jul 25, 2013)

lukem said:


> Need to tape some blocks to your boots to reach the pedals with that one.


 
I have well over 1200 foot straight always.


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## Ashful (Jul 25, 2013)

That lawn is begging to be mowed with a zero turn. Man, I could open up my mower on a stretch like that:


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## smokinj (Jul 25, 2013)

Joful said:


> That lawn should be mowed with a zero turn. Man, I could open up my mower on a stretch like that:
> 
> View attachment 106946


 
Its pretty smoooooth to!


----------



## Jags (Jul 25, 2013)

Joful said:


> That lawn is begging to be mowed with a zero turn. Man, I could open up my mower on a stretch like that:


 
I have been sniffing at zero turns, but there is no way you would be able to run anywhere near top speed on my lawn. It simply isn't smooth enough.


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## lukem (Jul 25, 2013)

Jags said:


> I have been sniffing at zero turns, but there is no way you would be able to run anywhere near top speed on my lawn. It simply isn't smooth enough.


 

ZTR is some of the best money I have ever spent. My yard is not smooth and I can run close to top speed (8 MPH). I mow my three acres in just shy of an hour. They're expensive because they're worth it.


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## Ashful (Jul 25, 2013)

Jags said:


> I have been sniffing at zero turns, but there is no way you would be able to run anywhere near top speed on my lawn. It simply isn't smooth enough.


 

Mine's pretty un-smooth as well. My rear lawn is somewhat wooded, and is a lower area requiring lots of buried drain pipe to keep it drained and dry. Every year, it seems a few more trees die blow down, leaving me to grind out the stumps (6 in two years!). Those drain line runs settle and sink a bit more each year, along with the back-filled stump holes, leaving the lawn pretty darn bumpy when flying around at 11 mph.

I have been running around with a front-end loader full of dirt, twice each year, filling in low spots and/or holes as I find them. I tell myself it's getting better each year, although animals make new holes and the frost does its thing each year, so I'm probably just keeping up. Old bumpy spots get flat, old flat spots get bumpy. After the 2nd or 3rd mowing each year, I know where I can go full speed, and where I need to pull back.


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## smokinj (Jul 25, 2013)

Ok who can drink a beer and mow at the same time? (Jags you cant do that on a 0 turn) I can!  6 way aeration spring and fall. This year with the cub I will be pulling double aerators.


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## lukem (Jul 25, 2013)

You can drink beer on a ZTR, but you gotta really want it...or get a camel pack.


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## smokinj (Jul 25, 2013)

lukem said:


> You can drink beer on a ZTR, but you gotta really want it...or get a camel pack.


 
Bawhahaha! Brilliant


----------



## Ashful (Jul 25, 2013)

smokinj said:


> 6 way aeration spring and fall. This year with the cub I will be pulling double aerators.


 

Okay, I need to learn here.  I have this crappy little 42" / 160 lb. plug aerator I always towed behind the Cub 123.  It works, but takes a long time to cover 4 acres of lawn.  Now that I have the Deere 855 (25hp diesel with cat.1 rear 3-point hitch), I'm thinking I should have a bigger aerator.  What the heck is 6-way aeration, and a double aerator?


----------



## smokinj (Jul 25, 2013)

Joful said:


> Okay, I need to learn here. I have this crappy little 42" / 160 lb. plug aerator I always towed behind the Cub 123. It works, but takes a long time to cover 4 acres of lawn. Now that I have the Deere 855 (25hp diesel with cat.1 rear 3-point hitch), I'm thinking I should have a bigger aerator. What the heck is 6-way aeration, and a double aerator?


 
You put a hitch on the first aerator and pull the second behind it. Then you do your normal mow pattern so your going across it from different angles. It should look like a heard of buffalos went though after your done. So 6 different directions with 2 aerators would be 12 pass's. This has tons of benefits but helping to smooth the lawn out is my favorite. After a heavy rain you can hear the lawn it sounds like a big sponge. I have a very high water table so its a most for me.


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## Ashful (Jul 25, 2013)

6 passes? So, you mean you mow 6 consecutive weeks with this rig on the back of your tractor? Pulling an aerator while mowing is not a good option for ZTR riders.


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## lukem (Jul 25, 2013)

Usually best to aerate all at once. You don't want to re-aerate grass that is just starting regenerate a week later. Sounds like Jay spends the afternoon driving his mower around the yard drinking beer.

If done correctly your yard will look like hell when you're done, but don't worry...it is just fine.


----------



## smokinj (Jul 25, 2013)

Joful said:


> 6 passes? So, you mean you mow 6 consecutive weeks with this rig on the back of your tractor? Pulling an aerator while mowing is not a good option for ZTR riders.


 
No do it once I see a rain pattern starting. Good soil moisture. But it could take me a couple weeks just depending on how much time I have. You can curse pretty fast but with a double aeration set-up its larger turns. (Your not mowing when you do this) Get as much wait as possible on the aerator. If I am not pulling at-least 2-1/2 inch plugs its not wet enough.


----------



## smokinj (Jul 25, 2013)

Just went to the machine shop. Heads not done hes on vacation and there just now telling me this.  Now I had another guy measure for flatness. One corner is off .004. Would you wait or rool with it?


----------



## MasterMech (Jul 25, 2013)

Joful said:


> Okay, I need to learn here.  I have this crappy little 42" / 160 lb. plug aerator I always towed behind the Cub 123.  It works, but takes a long time to cover 4 acres of lawn.  Now that I have the Deere 855 (25hp diesel with cat.1 rear 3-point hitch), I'm thinking I should have a bigger aerator.  What the heck is 6-way aeration, and a double aerator?


With an 855 at your disposal......

There are a LOT of old towable and PTO powered aerators collecting dust in the back corner of a golf course shed.  Might be old tech for them but would do a helluva job on a residential lawn.  I'd start asking around.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2


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## smokinj (Jul 25, 2013)

The Jd 3 point was what I was useing for commercial work back in the 90s double pass and good to go. 3-1/2 average plugs. How about the head.004 off on one cornor?


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## Ashful (Jul 25, 2013)

MasterMech said:


> With an 855 at your disposal......
> 
> There are a LOT of old towable and PTO powered aerators collecting dust in the back corner of a golf course shed. Might be old tech for them but would do a helluva job on a residential lawn. I'd start asking around.


 

I was hoping you'd chime in. Will have to make some calls next week! I thought they used self-powered machines, tho... I'm looking for something I can park in a corner (or even outside) when I'm done with it.

I did look into some 3-point aerators... holy sh$t! Anything not made of Chinese tinfoil was over $2000. Heck... it's a steel tray, two hangers, a CRS spindle, and some tines. I paid $250 new for my current unit, and aside from being way too narrow for my current tractor, it does a great job!


----------



## smokinj (Jul 25, 2013)

Yep but in 1999 I turn 290000 with what you have. Now that was big marketing and profit was no where what you might think. But if you ever have a drought your golden. At 2k you need to look at used andreplace the tines.


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## Ashful (Jul 25, 2013)

smokinj said:


> Yep but in 1999 I turn 290000 with what you have.


 

I misplaced my J-to-English translator again!


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## smokinj (Jul 25, 2013)

Sorrry I have a kindle.....Gross that year with a Jd and 3 point areatror was 290000 bucks. The very best engine areation machine is a Ryan core 28. I WILL TAKE THE 3 POINT for the win. Very low maintenance.


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## Ashful (Jul 25, 2013)

Wow... was that a PTO-driven or just a simple non-powered unit?


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## smokinj (Jul 25, 2013)

Just a pull behind 3 point and it will throw! 8 foot rooaster tails with 3-1/2 inch plugs. Not even a Ryan 28 compairs.


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## charly (Jul 25, 2013)

smokinj said:


> Just went to the machine shop. Heads not done hes on vacation and there just now telling me this.  Now I had another guy measure for flatness. One corner is off .004. Would you wait or rool with it?


You could use some fine sand paper on a piece of glass and run the head in a figure eight motion over the paper in a pinch.. Then keep checking the head with a straight edge and feeler gauge.. Or just use a piece of glass to set the head on and go around with a feeler gauge..Harley school they had a nice gauge block to check things like head flatness. You should be able to see the low spot as you sand on the glass, as you keep checking the head.. 
Another idea....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=mTv7KfWtE4g


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## MasterMech (Jul 26, 2013)

smokinj said:


> The very best engine areation machine is a Ryan core 28.​


 
Hah. Toro ProCore 648 will make that thing dig a hole and hide! 

Little different price tag (and application!) however.   The ground literally shakes when we're out running the ProCore!


----------



## MasterMech (Jul 26, 2013)

smokinj said:


> Just went to the machine shop. Heads not done hes on vacation and there just now telling me this.  Now I had another guy measure for flatness. One corner is off .004. Would you wait or rool with it?


 
Piece of 120 grit on a flat backing plate, run the head round in figure 8's until it's flat. .004 in one corner ain't bad, could roll with it but the sandpaper treatment is quick and easy.


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## Ashful (Jul 26, 2013)

smokinj said:


> Just went to the machine shop. Heads not done hes on vacation and there just now telling me this.  Now I had another guy measure for flatness. One corner is off .004. Would you wait or rool with it?



Oops... Missed this!  I did mine with a sheet of SiC paper on a piece of thick glass.  Will 'splain when I'm typing on something bigger than a phone!


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## smokinj (Jul 26, 2013)

Is it make for golf course?


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## Ashful (Jul 26, 2013)

Joful said:


> Oops... Missed this! I did mine with a sheet of SiC paper on a piece of thick glass. Will 'splain when I'm typing on something bigger than a phone!


 

Okay, so here's how to flatten a Cub head, when you don't have a friend who owns a machine shop doing it for you.

Get a sheet of SiC (silicon carbide) paper.  Aluminum Oxide can be sub'd in a pinch, but won't cut or last as well.  I just bought a range of grits, approx. 80 - 600 grit.

Get yourself a spray bottle full of water.  Steal the one your wife uses for ironing, if you have to.  

Find a flat surface.  A sheet of thick (0.250" or thicker) glass is great, but a cast table saw or jointer table works great, in a pinch.

Look at your head, and take a guess at what grit to start with.  MasterMech's guess at 120 grit might be a good place to start.

Spray some water on your flat surface, and throw the paper down on it.  If the surface is really smooth and flat (as it should be), the surface tension of the water will hold the paper in place quite well.

Spray more water on top of the paper (this helps keep the paper from clogging up with aluminum), and work your head on the flat paper in a figure-8 or circular motion.  Be sure you keep your head flat as you work, 'cause SiC cuts FAST when you accidentally rock the head.

You'll be able to see where the paper is cutting, and where it is not, by looking at the sheen left on the gasket surface of the head.  If the grit you chose is cutting quick enough, go until you have even finish all 'round.  If it's too far out for the grit you're using, switch to coarser.

Once flat, work your way up thru the finer grits, until you're happy with the finish.  Should be at least as smooth as the finish before you started.

When done, dry the hell out of your cast table, and hose it down with WD-40 or equivalent.  I like to let the oil sit on the table, not wipe it off, until next time I need to use it next.

That's it!  Pretty simple.


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## smokinj (Jul 26, 2013)

charly said:


> You could use some fine sand paper on a piece of glass and run the head in a figure eight motion over the paper in a pinch.. Then keep checking the head with a straight edge and feeler gauge.. Or just use a piece of glass to set the head on and go around with a feeler gauge..Harley school they had a nice gauge block to check things like head flatness. You should be able to see the low spot as you sand on the glass, as you keep checking the head..
> Another idea....
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=mTv7KfWtE4g


 
I have a 2-1/2 inch piece of granite would that work for a flat surface?


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## smokinj (Jul 26, 2013)

Joful said:


> Okay, so here's how to flatten a Cub head, when you don't have a friend who owns a machine shop doing it for you.
> 
> Get a sheet of SiC (silicon carbide) paper. Aluminum Oxide can be sub'd in a pinch, but won't cut or last as well. I just bought a range of grits, approx. 80 - 600 grit.
> 
> ...


 

I have a tool and die makers granite top. Its the flattest thing I have would that work?


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## Ashful (Jul 26, 2013)

smokinj said:


> I have a tool and die makers granite top. Its the flattest thing I have would that work?


 
Yeah.  That's what we call "overkill".  It'll work.


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## charly (Jul 26, 2013)

smokinj said:


> I have a 2-1/2 inch piece of granite would that work for a flat surface?


I would say that would work fine.. You could put a steel rule on edge and see just how flat it is..Check a few spots with a feeler gauge underneath, .001 doesn't go in your good...or even get down and see if you can see light underneath the straight edge, shine a flash light behind it... Another thing I use as a sealer that never hardens is Hylomar.. works great. It was developed for Rolls Royce to use on their jet turbines to seal up any oil leaks when they started using synthetic oil.. I used it at Harley... A one shot deal.. They make a spray too.. You can coat stuff and put it together a week later... Some people over apply sealer,, if you do with hylomar, fear not, it will not plug any oil passages inside a motor... We saw a few lower end crank pin oil galleys plug with regular RTV silicone which took the lower ends out from lack of oil.. Someone had applied too much silicone on a cam cover.. Hylomar great stuff, not cheap but easy to take back apart and clean up and no oil leaks... I use to dip 1/4-20 allen screws into the end of the tube and coat the screws that had oil sitting behind them on a primary cover etc... Good stuff.


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## charly (Jul 26, 2013)

smokinj said:


> I have a tool and die makers granite top. Its the flattest thing I have would that work?


Sweet! That's what they had at the Harley Factory School in the Engine building class..


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## charly (Jul 26, 2013)

Soap and water that head when your done.. You want no grit getting into your cylinder.. Found out after boring cylinders and final honing them that brake clean never got the fine stone dust and slurry out of the pores of a cylinder,,, Hot soap and water and a soft brush did... otherwise just brake clean left residue which ruined your new rings and piston once things got running and heated up.. Out came the junk from the pores.. Old timer that worked at the dealership told me how he once bead blasted a Harley case inside, never knew to use soap and water at the time, just used something like brake clean at the time and air... Bike went out after a complete motor rebuild,,, 2 days later it was back as a noisy smoking mess.. Glass beads had worked out of the pores once the motor got hot and circulated throughout the whole engine, ruining bearings etc.. The old timer said he refused to ever bead blast an interior of a case after that... So clean , clean , clean...


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## Ashful (Jul 26, 2013)

Good point.  I forgot to mention that step.  Anything I lap with paper goes under the faucet in the sink for a thorough cleaning before use!


----------



## Jags (Jul 26, 2013)

One other little trick is to use a Sharpie marker on the gasket surface.  As you run the head around the sandpaper you will easily notice where it is/isn't hitting the surface.  Reapply as needed until flat as glass.


----------



## charly (Jul 26, 2013)

Jags said:


> One other little trick is to use a Sharpie marker on the gasket surface. As you run the head around the sandpaper you will easily notice where it is/isn't hitting the surface. Reapply as needed until flat as glass.


Good idea . I use to use the sharpie to check the seat area on the face of valves after doing a 3 angle valve seat cut.. or bluing..


----------



## charly (Jul 26, 2013)

Just got thinking,, sharpie the known low area on the head, once you start removing that, you'll know your getting close to getting her flat... Nice to see that everyone here cared to get you back up and running! Hearth rocks!  And it wasn't cobber job  Hand fit like the good old days!


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## smokinj (Jul 26, 2013)

Would you set the head on the drill press with the granite on the table? Just a little spin a friend throw at me.


----------



## Ashful (Jul 26, 2013)

smokinj said:


> Would you set the head on the drill press with the granite on the table? Just a little spin a friend throw at me.


 
No, I would not do that, if I'm reading you right.  You want control over this, and you want random orbit, not spinning.  Besides, how you gonna find the center point, and get the thing squared up nice on a drill press?

Doing this by hand with SiC paper, it's a pretty quick job.  You'll be at it only a few minutes.


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## smokinj (Jul 26, 2013)

So lick and stick sand paper to the granite and spin with a cordless drilll?


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## MasterMech (Jul 27, 2013)

smokinj said:


> So lick and stick sand paper to the granite and spin with a cordless drilll?


Run the head over the paper by hand. No power required.


----------



## charly (Jul 27, 2013)

smokinj said:


> So lick and stick sand paper to the granite and spin with a cordless drilll?


Should have never posted that video,,, sorry.. Hand is the way to go.. Mark the low spot by rubbing magic marker in that area,,, when you see the marker starting to get removed, you know your getting close to flat..  Keep wiping the head and checking..


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## Ashful (Jul 27, 2013)

MasterMech said:


> Run the head over the paper by hand. No power required.



Yeah... no drill (or any power tools) required!  Also, you don't spin the head. Just work it in a random pattern around the paper.  Not a bad idea to turn it 90 degrees every coupl'a strokes, but that's about it.


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## smokinj (Jul 28, 2013)

Granite. Slab clean. I have 3 pieces of sand paper. (That has no Velcro backing)  120. 180. 220. Is that going to be fine enough?


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## charly (Jul 28, 2013)

smokinj said:


> Granite. Slab clean. I have 3 pieces of sand paper. (That has no Velcro backing) 120. 180. 220. Is that going to be fine enough?


I would think the 220 should be fine... See how fast it removes material,,, you can always go coarser and then come back to a fine finish..


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## smokinj (Jul 28, 2013)

I just finish 120 grit all sharpie ink is gone. Going to go a little more with it and change to 180 grit.


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## Ashful (Jul 28, 2013)

smokinj said:


> I just finish 120 grit all sharpie ink is gone. Going to go a little more with it and change to 180 grit.


 

Cool.  For future reference, start finer than you think you need.  When it inevitably cuts too slow, go a step coarser.  That way, you avoid starting too coarse and removing more material than necessary.

Of course, more material removed = very marginally higher compression, so... no harm, no foul.


----------



## smokinj (Jul 28, 2013)

I am super flat now with the 120. I can tell every bit is shinning.  You cant put a piece of paper under anywhere.  Would you keep going a jump up to 180 grit?


----------



## Ashful (Jul 28, 2013)

If the scratches are fine enough that you see them as being liquid tight, then you're good. I'd be surprised if you're there at 120 grit, but without seeing it up close...

I would think you'd want AT LEAST 220 grit, and in fact would jump directly from 120 to 220. If you have 240 instead of 220, then I'd do 180 before 240. But again... not there to see what it looks like!

BTW... what are you using for a head gasket? I always just used the OEM style.

_edit:  Googling this, I find recommendations for everything from 120 to 800 grit, as the final surface.  I guess opinions vary!_


----------



## smokinj (Jul 28, 2013)

Brand new kolher. I am not able to get a piece of paper under anywhere on it fresh cut all the way across. But I will jump to the 180.


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## Ashful (Jul 28, 2013)

You're probably fine either way, I guess. I tend to go OCD nuts on things like this. I guess I've got some Dexter blood in me.

More important than the grit is flatness, and you've got that. More important than flatness is cleanliness, so wash the hell out of it under the faucet when you're done!

Do note the spark plug thread is a steel insert. So, you'll want to be sure that's dry and oiled, after washing. The rest is just aluminum.


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## smokinj (Jul 28, 2013)

I have an Allen plug in there. With the 180 grit I now need a little sope just to keep it slippery enough. I AM GOING TO FINISH AT LEAST 220 GRIT


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## charly (Jul 28, 2013)

Hope you have an inch pound or foot pound torque wrench and take the time to use the proper torque pattern for the head... also try to bring the head up to its final torque in 3 gradually higher torque settings, doing all the bolts and moving the torque wrench up to a higher setting each time.. You should have a trouble free head gasket then.


----------



## smokinj (Jul 28, 2013)

I do and the the granite was certified last in 1992. It was a last present to my uncle. Its never been touch since. I going. To run it up to 220 grit.  Sandpaper is from my cater non Velcro. I Canto up to 1500 grit. Question is where is good enough?


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## Ashful (Jul 29, 2013)

I think I went to 400, but others online quote anywhere between 120 - 600.  I'd guess 220 is fine, but maybe wait for MasterMech to come in.

The torque pattern is critical on these, and there are two different K301 torque patterns.  Google (or the folks at onlycubcadets) is your friend, here.  I gave my Kohler manual to the guy who bought my cub, so I don't have it anymore.


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## smokinj (Jul 29, 2013)

Joful said:


> I think I went to 400, but others online quote anywhere between 120 - 600.  I'd guess 220 is fine, but maybe wait for MasterMech to come in.
> 
> The torque pattern is critical on these, and there are two different K301 torque patterns.  Google (or the folks at onlycubcadets) is your friend, here.  I gave my Kohler manual to the guy who bought my cub, so I don't have it anymore.






I have the service manual. IT IS 25-30 LBS WITH TORQUE PATTERN.


----------



## Jags (Jul 29, 2013)

Jay - hit 220.  If you have it and the extra 45 seconds to spare, finish with the 400, but that is probably not a requirement.


----------



## Ashful (Jul 29, 2013)

Cool.  The torque pattern in my manual was apparently for a real old (1965) cub, and I remember they had a newer torque pattern.  The guys over at onlycubcadets seemed to think that following the pattern was a huge issue on these.

The one thing that was a real PITA was that most of them will tell you to torque everything down, put a few hours on the engine, and then re-torque those head bolts.  That means pulling off the gas tank and sheet metal a second time.


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## Jags (Jul 29, 2013)

Joful said:


> The one thing that was a real PITA was that most of them will tell you to torque everything down, put a few hours on the engine, and then re-torque those head bolts. That means pulling off the gas tank and sheet metal a second time.


 
If you are using OEM head gasket, then yes, you will want to re-torque.


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## smokinj (Jul 29, 2013)

Joful said:


> Cool. The torque pattern in my manual was apparently for a real old (1965) cub, and I remember they had a newer torque pattern. The guys over at onlycubcadets seemed to think that following the pattern was a huge issue on these.
> 
> The one thing that was a real PITA was that most of them will tell you to torque everything down, put a few hours on the engine, and then re-torque those head bolts. That means pulling off the gas tank and sheet metal a second time.


 

Not on a 128 you don't. Its even got holes in the heat shield for the head bolts.


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## Ashful (Jul 29, 2013)

Cool.  They obviously learned from the past!


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## charly (Jul 29, 2013)

Never re-torqued any Harley head bolts.. Actually by re torquing a bolt , the initial inertia used to get the bolt moving again winds up over torquing the bolt , etc. Your better off backing off and then coming up to the torque spec you wanted.. This was mentioned in service school for Harley and also by a DOT trainer on heavy trucks concerning checking wheel nut torques... I would just go 10 -20- 30 ft lbs and let it be..Use the proper torque pattern.. On the New EVO Harley they wound up going to two increments of torque, like 7 ft lbs, then 18, and after that a 90 degree turn at the end on each head bolt.. Been a long time so can't remember exactly the first two specs , but that was their sequence..  30 ft lbs will still give you a 5 lb variable for the head gasket crushing down.. Then some later stuff had you did the first two torques, back them back off and then re tighten the head back up as normal.. That precrushed the gasket. I'm surprised they just don't do something like that instead of taking everything back off to check..


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## MasterMech (Jul 30, 2013)

charly said:


> two increments of torque, like 7 ft lbs, then 18, and after that a 90 degree turn at the end on each head bolt​


 
That's a Torque To Yield fastener.  Different animal.  They are designed to be put under a certain amount of pre-tension (the torque spec) and then streched a certain distance like a spring.  (that's the 90 deg spec.  If you had 16 threads per inch [std for a 3/8" head bolt/stud] 90 deg would be stretching that bolt 0.015625". )
The point of coming up in steps rather than just torqing to spec is so that the clamping force remains even as the final bolts are torqued down.  Say you torque one side of the part to spec, as you move towards the opposite side, the part can act as a lever and actually increase the clamping force in the area where you first started torqing fasteners.


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## smokinj (Jul 30, 2013)

Ok grit how fine o a grit should be used?


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## charly (Jul 30, 2013)

MasterMech said:


> That's a Torque To Yield fastener. Different animal. They are designed to be put under a certain amount of pre-tension (the torque spec) and then streched a certain distance like a spring. (that's the 90 deg spec. If you had 16 threads per inch [std for a 3/8" head bolt/stud] 90 deg would be stretching that bolt 0.015625". )
> The point of coming up in steps rather than just torqing to spec is so that the clamping force remains even as the final bolts are torqued down. Say you torque one side of the part to spec, as you move towards the opposite side, the part can act as a lever and actually increase the clamping force in the area where you first started torqing fasteners.


I realize you would never torque one bolt to it's full spec and then start the others.. Just saying how you have to know what the specs are for torquing down a particular application..


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## Ashful (Jul 30, 2013)

charly said:


> I realize you would never torque one bolt to it's full spec and then start the others.. Just saying how you have to know what the specs are for torquing down a particular application..


 

Yeah... but the Cub shop manuals were written at a time when a certain amount of intelligence was assumed (something our litigious society has forgotten) on the part of the owner / mechanic.  It simply gives the pattern (eg. fasteners 1 thru 8), final torque value, and states "torque in steps up to final value".  Less detailed than a modern Harley shop manual, for sure.


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## smokinj (Jul 30, 2013)

Joful said:


> Yeah... but the Cub shop manuals were written at a time when a certain amount of intelligence was assumed (something our litigious society has forgotten) on the part of the owner / mechanic. It simply gives the pattern (eg. fasteners 1 thru 8), final torque value, and states "torque in steps up to final value". Less detailed than a modern Harley shop manual, for sure.


 

Yep I think the that pattern and torque is pretty simple stuff. With manual in hand. Now back to the grit factor.  How high should I go?


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## Jags (Jul 30, 2013)

smokinj said:


> Yep I think the that pattern and torque is pretty simple stuff. With manual in hand. Now back to the grit factor.  How high should I go?


 
400 or 600 - whatever you got - will get the job done and shiny.


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## smokinj (Jul 30, 2013)

Jags said:


> 400 or 600 - whatever you got - will get the job done and shiny.


 

I am at 220 now. Got any ideas to make Velcro stick to granite?


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## Ashful (Jul 30, 2013)

Hah... I already gave you my answer! I went to 400 (or maybe higher), but that's because I already had paper on-hand to at least 2000 grit. I see folks on Cub forums posting anywhere between 120 and 600 grit, as the final surface. I basically look at the surface, and make a call on whether or not I think it's scratch-free enough for the head gasket to make a good seal.

Having only done this a few times in 40 years, but I guess Jags has done a bunch of these, and he says 240 is good enough. I would guess that if you go too coarse, you'll see evidence of blow-by at the aluminum ring on the head gasket, next time you have the head off. Then you'll know. 

BTW... don't use that velcro chit! It's not flat enough. You'll end up with a convex (not flat) surface on the head.  Your local body shop supplier will have the flat SiC paper I use, and they sell single sheets (it's expensive, for sandpaper).


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## Ashful (Jul 30, 2013)

Here's a suitable paper.  This 5-pack has one sheet of each grit you'll need.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#4680A112


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## smokinj (Jul 30, 2013)

Joful said:


> Hah... I already gave you my answer! I went to 400 (or maybe higher), but that's because I already had paper on-hand to at least 2000 grit. I see folks on Cub forums posting anywhere between 120 and 600 grit, as the final surface. I basically look at the surface, and make a call on whether or not I think it's scratch-free enough for the head gasket to make a good seal.
> 
> Having only done this a few times in 40 years, but I guess Jags has done a bunch of these, and he says 240 is good enough. I would guess that if you go too coarse, you'll see evidence of blow-by at the aluminum ring on the head gasket, next time you have the head off. Then you'll know.
> 
> BTW... don't use that velcro chit! It's not flat enough. You'll end up with a convex (not flat) surface on the head. Your local body shop supplier will have the flat SiC paper I use, and they sell single sheets (it's expensive, for sandpaper).


 

I think you said wait for reply from master small engines.  I have Norton wood and metal up to 220 grit and everything else I have over 220 is Velcro (Auto body paper) and trying to figure out how to make it stick?


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## lukem (Jul 30, 2013)

You don't want velcro.  An old timer machinist friend of mine had a certified flat granite slab for doing just what you are doing.  He would spill a little of his coke on the slab, wipe it around, and put down the sand paper.  Wait a few minutes...bingo...your paper is stuck to the slab...and cleans up with a little soap and water.


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## Ashful (Jul 30, 2013)

smokinj said:


> I think you said wait for reply from master small engines.


 

Always a safe bet.  Did you see my link for SiC paper from McMaster?  At $5, I'd pick up a pack, and use that.  They probably have some other hardware you need, anyway... so you can combine shipping on a few items.


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## smokinj (Jul 30, 2013)

Joful said:


> Always a safe bet. Did you see my link for SiC paper from McMaster? At $5, I'd pick up a pack, and use that. They probably have some other hardware you need, anyway... so you can combine shipping on a few items.


 

Yea trying to use what I got on hand. I have draws full of sand paper but most is for my 1,2,4,6 inch Velcro system.


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## Ashful (Jul 30, 2013)

The trouble with the velcro is that you're trying to be flat within a few thousandths of an inch, and most Velcro loop backing will compress and conform to a few hundredths of an inch.  No way it's staying as flat as you want.


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## smokinj (Jul 30, 2013)

Joful said:


> The trouble with the velcro is that you're trying to be flat within a few thousandths of an inch, and most Velcro loop backing will compress and conform to a few hundredths of an inch. No way it's staying as flat as you want.


 
Nor can I get it to stick!


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## Ashful (Jul 30, 2013)

I like lukem's suggestion, and will have to try that next.  I have a bunch of heavy glass plates around, and I usually either just use water (which helps it stick a little, but you still have to hold it in place by hand), or spray adhesive.  The spray adhesive is great for keeping it in place, but it's tricky to get that stuff perfectly flat.  The soda would be about perfect.

Another idea I just came up with is hair spray.  I always have a can of Aqua Net in the shop, which I use for things like installing handle-bar grips on bikes.  Slippery lube when wet, sticky as all heck when dry.


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## Jags (Jul 30, 2013)

Don't use the velcro backed stuff, Jay.  It will have too much give or "sponge" to it.  Heck - you are at 220, get a sheet of wet/dry 400 or 600 from any store you can.  Wet the back side slightly (it will help it stay in place) and then wet the surface of the grit.  Get-R-Done.  It won't take but a couple of minutes.


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## smokinj (Jul 30, 2013)

Jags said:


> Don't use the velcro backed stuff, Jay. It will have too much give or "sponge" to it. Heck - you are at 220, get a sheet of wet/dry 400 or 600 from any store you can. Wet the back side slightly (it will help it stay in place) and then wet the surface of the grit. Get-R-Done. It won't take but a couple of minutes.


 

Yea that's what I am going to do. Cant believe 5 draws full of sandpaper up to 3m's 1500 grit that I don't have the paper to finish this. (Head held low)


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## lukem (Jul 30, 2013)

Joful said:


> I like lukem's suggestion, and will have to try that next. I have a bunch of heavy glass plates around, and I usually either just use water (which helps it stick a little, but you still have to hold it in place by hand), or spray adhesive. The spray adhesive is great for keeping it in place, but it's tricky to get that stuff perfectly flat. The soda would be about perfect.
> 
> Another idea I just came up with is hair spray. I always have a can of Aqua Net in the shop, which I use for things like installing handle-bar grips on bikes. Slippery lube when wet, sticky as all heck when dry.


 

Hair spray is a good idea too.


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## smokinj (Jul 30, 2013)

lukem said:


> Hair spray is a good idea too.


 

Think I will wait till that beer I took out of the freezer thaws out. Give it a try.  j/k I have coke in the shop but I draw the line at hair spray!


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## lukem (Jul 30, 2013)

With all those wimmen folk in your house you probably have a ton of hairspray.  Use what you gots.


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## smokinj (Jul 30, 2013)

lukem said:


> With all those wimmen folk in your house you probably have a ton of hairspray. Use what you gots.


 

You are right and that's where the refusal comes from.


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## Jags (Jul 30, 2013)

And just bringing it to your attention - Aqua Net is a righteous fuel for spud guns.  So it can be "man" justified in the shop.


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## Ashful (Jul 30, 2013)

Jags said:


> And just bringing it to your attention - Aqua Net is a righteous fuel for spud guns. So it can be "man" justified in the shop.


 

Full disclosure: that's the real reason I have two cans of it in the shop. Left over from one drunken summer in my 20's. Now it gets used for things like installing bicycle hand grips and sticking SiC paper to flat surfaces...

<-- finally tossed the spud gun when moving in 2011


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## smokinj (Jul 30, 2013)

I have black powder and a cannon....


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## MasterMech (Jul 30, 2013)

Jags said:


> And just bringing it to your attention - Aqua Net is a righteous fuel for spud guns. So it can be "man" justified in the shop.


Oh, hell yes......


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## MasterMech (Jul 30, 2013)

Really, once you're up over 120 grit, a grafoil type head gasket is going to seal up just fine.  Hell the factory finish is from a fly cutter.


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## smokinj (Jul 30, 2013)

MasterMech said:


> Really, once you're up over 120 grit, a grafoil type head gasket is going to seal up just fine. Hell the factory finish is from a fly cutter.


 
That is kind of what I was thinking. Heck I could shave with it right now at 220.


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## charly (Jul 30, 2013)

smokinj said:


> That is kind of what I was thinking. Heck I could shave with it right now at 220.


You should be fine.. Not like it's a 12:1 compression race motor.  Just the fact that it's flat now will be a big improvement sealing...


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## smokinj (Jul 30, 2013)

I never seen a head this shiny.  Now I did use a little soap and water with the 220 that should have sputum me closer to a 300-350 grit on the back side of that piece of paper.


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## smokinj (Jul 30, 2013)

Putting it back together. Thursday night. Should be able to do a video I hope.


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## Ashful (Jul 30, 2013)

Cool!


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## smokinj (Aug 1, 2013)

Its all back together but cant find torque wrench.


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## Ashful (Aug 1, 2013)

Doh!


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## smokinj (Aug 2, 2013)

It'll is brand new cant figure out how or why its been moved. Headed to the state fair band championship today.


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## lukem (Aug 2, 2013)

Just torque it down to the German spec (Gudentite).


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## smokinj (Aug 5, 2013)

Its alive. 45 mine. And I will re-toque and its done. OIL LEAK. CAUSE BY GOVERNER TURN UP TO HIGH.


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## MasterMech (Aug 5, 2013)

lukem said:


> Just torque it down to the German spec (Gudentite).


 I've heard that before (and use/love it myself), but head bolts are worth a torque wrench.


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## Ashful (Aug 5, 2013)

We used to have two torque settings for less critical applications:

1.  A grunt.
2.  A grunt and a fart.

Sound it out.


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## BrotherBart (Aug 5, 2013)

MasterMech said:


> I've heard that before (and use/love it myself), but head bolts are worth a torque wrench.


 

I have done it many a time and said "click click" and depended on the "calibrated wrist" and sent a Chinook helicopter on its way. Never lost one that didn't have bullet holes in it.

Of course one day in the bush I did that with drive shaft bolts and the pilot made me ride back with them instead of the bird that brought me out there.


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## charly (Aug 6, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> I have done it many a time and said "click click" and depended on the "calibrated wrist" and sent a Chinook helicopter on its way. Never lost one that didn't have bullet holes in it.
> 
> Of course one day in the bush I did that with drive shaft bolts and the pilot made me ride back with them instead of the bird that brought me out there.


And here you are   Bolts were just fine!  Some good ole' common sense... some people have no feel for tightening bolts... The owners son of the Harley dealer I worked for was notorious for stripping bolts.. I'd see him work on something and watch as he overtightened something... Next time the machine came in and I took his bolts out, I was installing Heli coils.  That's how I found out his feel for tightness sucked!


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## lukem (Aug 6, 2013)

I will say that I almost always use a torque wrench on anything aluminum.  My wrist calibration is out of spec for it.


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## smokinj (Aug 6, 2013)

25-30 lbs is way to hard for me to guess.


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## Jags (Aug 6, 2013)

Tighten it till it breaks, then back off 1/4 of a turn.


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## charly (Aug 6, 2013)

smokinj said:


> 25-30 lbs is way to hard for me to guess.


Do it right, do it once...Torque wrench ...


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## Jags (Aug 7, 2013)

charly said:


> Do it right, do it once...Torque wrench ...


 
Actually - do it twice.  It needs to be re-torqued.  (Yeah - I am being picky.)


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## smokinj (Aug 7, 2013)

Jags said:


> Actually - do it twice. It needs to be re-torqued. (Yeah - I am being picky.)


 
No when I re-torqued they where all way off. When do it again tonight for the 3rd time just to make sure.


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## Jags (Aug 7, 2013)

smokinj said:


> No when I re-torqued they where all way off.


A pretty common occurrence.  If I were a bet'in man, I would guess that the third time will yield little movement.


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## smokinj (Aug 7, 2013)

Jags said:


> A pretty common occurrence. If I were a bet'in man, I would guess that the third time will yield little movement.


 

That's what I am hoping for...


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## Flatbedford (Aug 8, 2013)

So, I just read all 9 pages of this. I haven't been around here much this summer. Do I understand that you moved up from that green tractor to a Cub? Which one? Do you have another thread about it?


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## smokinj (Aug 8, 2013)

Flatbedford said:


> So, I just read all 9 pages of this. I haven't been around here much this summer. Do I understand that you moved up from that green tractor to a Cub? Which one? Do you have another thread about it?


 
I still have my jd its a hydrostat and its not going to pull a plow. The cub is being used as the heavy lifter if you will.


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## Flatbedford (Aug 8, 2013)

What model? I know its a 12hp. and will surely be a fine heavy lifter.


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## smokinj (Aug 8, 2013)

Flatbedford said:


> What model? I know its a 12hp. and will surely be a fine heavy lifter.


 
Its a 128


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## Flatbedford (Aug 8, 2013)

Nice. The WF Cubs are the best.


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## Ashful (Aug 8, 2013)

Flatbedford said:


> Nice. The WF Cubs are the best.


 

 I had a special fondness for the narrow frames.


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## Flatbedford (Aug 9, 2013)

Joful said:


> I had a special fondness for the narrow frames.


 

My first Cub was a 125. After my brother in law bought a 108 I decided that I wanted a WF. To each his own.


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## Ashful (Aug 9, 2013)

The wide frames were workhorses, but who can say "no" to this little cutie?





Mine was only slightly newer:


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## smokinj (Aug 9, 2013)

Joful said:


> The wide frames were workhorses, but who can say "no" to this little cutie?
> 
> View attachment 108057


 
LOL That's not even fair. Awesome!


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## lukem (Aug 9, 2013)

You get anything to hitch to that mule yet?


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## smokinj (Aug 9, 2013)

lukem said:


> You get anything to hitch to that mule yet?


 
No but looking hard. I hate to buy new. I have a aerator and a 17cu foot trailer. Going to get a 30 cu ft in Sept. Looking for plow disc and Cultivator.


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## Flatbedford (Aug 9, 2013)

You will also need the IH Cub Cadet three point hitch and Brinly sleeve hitch adapter. For those implements.










A spring assist might also be nice for your manual lift tractor.


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## lukem (Aug 9, 2013)

I've been looking for a small cultivator to pull behind the Honda to put in a few food plots and possibly expand the garden some more.  The new ones are damned expensive and the used ones are hard to come by.


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## Flatbedford (Aug 9, 2013)

I have a plow, disc, cultivator, and rear blade for my Cubs. I also recently acquired a landscape rake that I intend to modify for my Cubs.


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## smokinj (Aug 9, 2013)

Flatbedford said:


> I have a plow, disc, cultivator, and rear blade for my Cubs. I also recently acquired a landscape rake that I intend to modify for my Cubs.
> View attachment 108078


 
Is that a cup holder I see? Nice set up to. That's what I am going for


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## Flatbedford (Aug 9, 2013)

It is a magnetic cupholder that I found on a discount rack at Sears. It sounds like a good idea, but it failed miserably.


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## smokinj (Aug 9, 2013)

Flatbedford said:


> It is a magnetic cupholder that I found on a discount rack at Sears. It sounds like a good idea, but it failed miserably.


 
lol It was wishful thinking on my part as well. My Jd there no problem with a drink. The cub is a whole new skill set.


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## smokinj (Aug 9, 2013)

Flatbedford said:


> You will also need the IH Cub Cadet three point hitch and Brinly sleeve hitch adapter. For those implements.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

I already have that.


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## Flatbedford (Aug 9, 2013)

smokinj said:


> I already have that.


 

You did good! Chains and it looks like it has wheel weights too. Does it have headlights? How come I don't see a lift lever on the right? How do you raise/lower the deck and rear hitch?


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## smokinj (Aug 9, 2013)

Flatbedford said:


> You did good! Chains and it looks like it has wheel weights too. How come I don't see a lift lever on the right? How do you raise/lower the deck and rear hitch?


 
Lift lever is top right its electric. (On the instrument panel)


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## Flatbedford (Aug 9, 2013)

Never heard of a 128 with electric lift. That's cool. Do you have more pictures of it?


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## smokinj (Aug 9, 2013)

Flatbedford said:


> Never heard of a 128 with electric lift. That's cool. Do you have more pictures of it?


 
Yes its a badged as a 108 but has 12 hp and electric deck and 3 point hitch.


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## Flatbedford (Aug 9, 2013)

Custom!


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## smokinj (Aug 9, 2013)

Flatbedford said:


> Custom!


 
The guy I traded said: The guy he got it from had a couple 100 cubs and said everything was fresh built in 2009. From everything I have done seems to say hes truthful. Only thing missing is the rear tail light and I cant find one.


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## Flatbedford (Aug 9, 2013)

Those tail lights are very hard to find and expensive!


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