# Outdoor wood boiler newbie



## robins44 (Dec 27, 2011)

Looking at purchasing to heat my 3600 square foot house (1 main floor and basement), and a 30x40 polebarn to come in future, do not currently have but plan to build hopefully summer. I am looking at http://ridgewoodstove.com/ridgewoodsept_002.htm . They are local (10 mins away) and the price is definately right. Wanted to know if theres anything specific i should look at, ask? Or any concerns that you fellers see. Also should i spring for the larger model seeings how i want to build my pole barn? Also will the larger unit use more wood until i get my pole barn, and if so will it be a signficant difference?






Thanks




Cody


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## Singed Eyebrows (Dec 27, 2011)

robins44 said:
			
		

> Looking at purchasing to heat my 3600 square foot house (1 main floor and basement), and a 30x40 polebarn to come in future, do not currently have but plan to build hopefully summer. I am looking at http://ridgewoodstove.com/ridgewoodsept_002.htm . They are local (10 mins away) and the price is definately right. Wanted to know if theres anything specific i should look at, ask? Or any concerns that you fellers see. Also should i spring for the larger model seeings how i want to build my pole barn? Also will the larger unit use more wood until i get my pole barn, and if so will it be a signficant difference? Hi Cody, Welcome to Hearth. Yes, the price is cheap, you are going to get a smoke dragon though. Do you have neighbors? From what I have read manufacturers of these type boilers are phasing them out. My personal opinion is that this is not money well spent. Check into downdraft gasification boilers & maybe you can find a used one or a deal on a new one & make a small shed for it. The Garn would be great for you except that is an expensive system. Do some reading on here before you plunk down $4100 on that smoke dragon, Randy
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## varna (Dec 27, 2011)

robins44 said:
			
		

> Looking at purchasing to heat my 3600 square foot house (1 main floor and basement), and a 30x40 polebarn to come in future, do not currently have but plan to build hopefully summer. I am looking at http://ridgewoodstove.com/ridgewoodsept_002.htm . They are local (10 mins away) and the price is definately right. Wanted to know if theres anything specific i should look at, ask? Or any concerns that you fellers see. Also should i spring for the larger model seeings how i want to build my pole barn? Also will the larger unit use more wood until i get my pole barn, and if so will it be a signficant difference?
> 
> Thanks
> Cody



Cody,

Yes, you do get what you pay for so I'm leary of all "cheap" units, but, without seeing one in person it's hard to give an opinion either way. What I will tell you is that I have a Central Boiler 6048 and I heat 3000 sqft house, 24X32 pole barn, hot tub @ 104 degrees, all domestic hot water, and in summer I heat my 45,000 gal inground pool. I'm pretty sure that my CB is rated @ 500,000 btu but take ANY boiler's ratings with a grain of salt. I put (not fill) wood in it twice a day when winter sets in. I could fill it once a day but I get better burns doing it twice. I burn about 10 full cords a year not counting the pool. I just started heating the pool in Nov and only for a few weeks so I don't have a good count on that yet, but I can already tell I will be burning a "bunch". During last summer just heating the hot tub and DHW, I would only use about a wheel barrow full every 2 days, so, I don't feel you will burn more wood than you need to until you put your pole barn on. It will only need to produce heat to cover the load you put on it. It is also my opinion that a unit that holds more water will work better in keeping boiler temps up. My old boiler only held 175 gallons of water and always struggled but my CB holds just shy of 400 gal and never has a problem.
Rule of thumb.....see what size they recommend for your application and buy 1 larger.  
What is nice about the non-gasser OWB is that if it fits through the door, you can burn it. Makes wood prep so much nicer. All the uglies, knots, Y's that would get "hung up" in a gasser are no problem burning. I had a OWB gasser so I know first hand. Yes, if you have any close neighbors you may run into trouble with smoke, but I have seen indoor wood stoves that smoke just as much as me during start up.....and there is NO law against them. As always, the drier the wood the better your results will be. 
Whatever boiler you choose, DO NOT skimp on the underground piping! Pay the money up front and save yourself from headaches down the road.
Although this site is an awsome source of information, most of the folks here are not OWB "friendly" so to say, so you will probably get several "Smoke Dragon" comments.
Another great source of info "mostly" on Outdoor Boilers can be found here:
http://www.outdoorwoodfurnaceinfo.com/forum/

One thing we all enjoy is NOT seeing the fuel man!


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## robins44 (Dec 27, 2011)

I have one neighbor and he has a hawking owb. He thinks this wood boiler will be a great choice for me. So smoke is not a concern.




Thanks looking for any expierence with this particular brand.



Thanks



Cody


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## robins44 (Dec 28, 2011)

well went and looked at them today, they look like there very well built! Thick steel and good strong welds with plenty of penetration, and thick spray foam insulation!


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## muncybob (Dec 28, 2011)

Do you access to "free" wood? Will you have a lot of time you can devote to wood accumulation? How well insulated is the 3600 sq ft you will be heating?

I guess what I'm getting at here is the design of this boiler does not appear to be very efficient as compared to some alternatives you may wish to consider. The less efficient the appliance the more wood/$$$/time you will need to be comfortable in your home thru the cold months.

I must say, I'm not particularily impressed with the photo of the insulated underground lines.

In any case, good luck with your decision and as usual, pics or it didn't happen


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## henfruit (Dec 28, 2011)

How are you going to stop the heat loss from the pump the way they have it exposed to the elements. If you are going to buy an out door boiler at least get a good one!


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## Gary_602z (Dec 29, 2011)

The pump  should be enclosed on all sides which it probably is. The things I would be concerned about is that it looks like a open draft rather then having a blower. The other major thing is what is the size of the outlet pipe? You may be limited on your btu's depending on the size. The site did not give warranty info that I could see. A lot of companies go out of business in a few years and then you are on your own.

 Is it steel or stainless? And what grade? IF you do a lot of research I think you will find the life of a OWB around 5-6 years. I am going on 6 years now with mine but one of my employees has the same model bought at the same time and he has had to have work done on his for the past 2 years for a total of about 2K.

 Do I regret buying a OWB? Not really and it has served me well. But you will find that they do use a LOT of wood! They are handy for burning garbage ,tires and bodies though! (duck and run)!  :lol: 

Gary


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## robins44 (Dec 29, 2011)

10 year warranty, pump is enclosed, natural draft. 7 to 10 cord Is what his customers are reporting on average, some as low as 5 (for small house)


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## robins44 (Dec 29, 2011)

Appreciate all the replys, I did get 6 cord of free wood this year, mostly cherry. I did have to haul cut stack split. But as far as the steel goes I think it says on his site, but pretty sure its 3/16 mild steel. Firebox is propane tank, you need to add sodium somethin or other to the water and send in 2 water samples a year.


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## Gary_602z (Dec 29, 2011)

I see that you are in MI same as me. When you say 7-10 cord a year you are talking full cord and not face cord? You will want to keep your PH on the high side. Something I did not see that you will want is a filter, and you will find that you will need a lot more fittings and shutoff valves then you could even imagine! :lol: 
 You will want to go to the biggest heat exchanger in your plenum if you have forced air and consider a sidearm or flatplate exchanger for you hot water heater if you have not. When you build your pole barn you will probably have to add another pump and more controls.

 Go for the bigger size boiler though. Another thought I had is if it has a aquastat on it or not?

Gary


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## shmodaddy (Dec 29, 2011)

Welcome to the forum!  The people on here are very informative and love their gassers!  I have read and read and read on here and learned a ton.  This forum gets very addicting very fast.  Stay out of the gear thread as they will infect you with a horrible chain saw collecting disease.   Trust me its takes all I can not to keep buying saws!!  Seriously tho they won't steer you wrong around here.


I am using a hardy heater used that a got from.a very good friend who bought a new hardy their newest biggest model.  It is an old hardy and I'm actually the third owner and the fourth house it has resided at.  It has had no major problems and has done my friend wonderfully and now myself wonderfully.   If you have access to wood and no neighbors to worry about smoke that boiler will do you well.  But they are inefficient and plan on burning wood.  The gassers when combined with storage will use considerably less wood with out the smoke and creosote.   If I had the money and space I would consider a gasser with storage and probably will upgrade eventually but for now I fill her up at night and toss some in in the morning before work and walk away.  We are roasty toasty and not burning any propane!!


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## woodsmaster (Dec 29, 2011)

robins44 said:
			
		

> Appreciate all the replys, I did get 6 cord of free wood this year, mostly cherry. I did have to haul cut stack split. But as far as the steel goes I think it says on his site, but pretty sure its 3/16 mild steel. Firebox is propane tank, you need to add sodium somethin or other to the water and send in 2 water samples a year.



That's not very thick. Mine is made from 1/2" boiler plate. You get what you pay for I guess.


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## Gary_602z (Dec 29, 2011)

woodsmaster said:
			
		

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And your installed cost was? Don't get on somebody for trying to save money. 

Gary


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## Duetech (Dec 29, 2011)

I used a gasser for 4 years before the insurance company changed its position on me. I currently use a ceramic version of an OWB and yes my wood consumption has gone up 2x+/-. Varna gave some real good advice concerning wood quantity and quality. I get better results not filling my boiler up and also by burning the driest wood I have available.  The boiler you are looking at has built in storage mine does not but it takes about as long to deliver usable heat as the general design as you are looking at. So there is no mistake I am pro gasser but I have learned how to minimize the smoke from my OWB so that it actually runs a good 4-6 hours out of 12 with only tell tale smoke. Plainly put even a 1/2 load will smoke a lot so if I want to keep the smoke down I put in about 1/4 load and then wait a couple of hours befroe adding more. Once the boiler gets up to temp and the wood gets hot it will smoke less because it will be heating the wood while idling instead of heating the wood and the water. Once the wood gets hot it will be releasing less water and burn better too. My OWB uses more wood than my gasser did but I have learned to load it more sparingly and get more use out of the wood I am using. I am burning less and getting more heat which means I am working less to get the job done. Loading technique will greatly reduce smoke while increasing heat output. A word of caution is soon there will probably be some pretty hard mfg restrictions on the place you are considering buying your boiler from. If they are not willing to adjust to the up coming environmental storm they may go out of business and where will your warranty be then?. So be prepared to walk the road alone just incase. A smaller load will generate less creosote stress on the burn box of your boiler. Gassers are much more picky as far as wood size and less tolerant with borderline moisture content. However OWB's don't have to be as offensive as some think but the users have to be more output efficiency minded. My unit came with a ten year warranty but learning how to make that ten years real is also part of my learning curve. Will you be running bseboard, panel rads, water/air heat x in the current furnace or are you going to go radiant? Welcome to the forum.


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## woodsmaster (Dec 29, 2011)

Sorry I was mistaken. Mine is made from 1/4 " boiler plate


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## robins44 (Dec 29, 2011)

Yes 7 to 10 full cord. Side arm comes with stove. Question if I spring for the larger stove how much more wood will I go threw in the meantime until I get my polebarn? Would it be significant.


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## martyinmi (Dec 29, 2011)

There shouldn't be any difference to speak of if all variables are close to identical. The advice the guys on here gave you is sound. Spend a little more money up front and buy a big enough gasser to heat both your home and barn. When you get a little older like me, you'll appreciate doing only half the work in the woods.


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## muncybob (Dec 29, 2011)

Yea Marty, that's kinda what I was getting at. No matter what your age is there are other things in life that can easily occupy your time and resources other than cutting 7 to 10 cords of wood a year. I have to admit, right now I am cutting close to 7 but it's becasue I want to and not because I have to.

It is amazing to me the advances being continually made in wood burning....interesting stuff for sure!  In any case, not matter what you buy it will surely save you $$ in the long run as long as the appliance is well designed/built, can easily be repaired and hopefully the manufacturer stands behind their product.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Dec 29, 2011)

robins44 said:
			
		

> 10 year warranty, pump is enclosed, natural draft. *7 to 10 cord Is what his customers are reporting on average, some as low as 5 (for small house)*



Useless piece of sales puffery. Is your heat load 'average'? I would not consider plunking down that kind of casholla for a tin can. If you hang around here for 6 months, you will know so much more about what you want to do. 

Buying a wood boiler in Winter is like buying an a/c unit during a heat wave. You are going to make compromises, and you are going to pay too much.


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## robins44 (Dec 29, 2011)

well i appreciate your opinions, but i only plan on living here for a few more years, and i cant justify the cost of a gasification. Around my area everyone has owb, and im hoping that this purchase will increase the value of my property as well. I can have the stove delivered, installed, and running sitting in my yard next week for a little over 5 grand. I appreciate all the help, but thats about half the cost of even just the stove you guys are talking about.

Im 24 years old, love to cut wood, and enjoy the exercise and hard work. Maybe as time goes on that will change, but for now i do enjoy the work, and the time i spend cutting the wood would probably just be time spent in front of a tv. Maybe after i sell my first house in a couple years and have a few years at my job under my belt i could consider one of the more expensive units. But for now i think this wood (haha get it) be a great stove to cut my teeth on and get a taste for heating my house with wood. All the wood i collected this year was from freinds and family, and some paid me to take it away, and there is plenty more. Even if i have to have some logs delieverd over the summer i am still at more than half the cost of propane. I realize i wont be saving much money with how long it will take for the stove to pay off, but i enjoy the work. Also it would take even more time for one of the more expensive stoves to pay off.

Any comments, concerns, or b*itching is more then welcome  Tell me if you think im wrong here, i always like people to open my eyes and show another side or viewpoint



Cody


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Dec 29, 2011)

robins44 said:
			
		

> well i appreciate your opinions, but i only plan on living here for a few more years, and i cant justify the cost of a gasification. Around my are everyone has owb, and *im hoping that this purchase will increase the value of my property as well*. I can have the stove delivered, installed, and running sitting in my yard next week for a little over 5 grand. I appreciate all the help, but thats about half the cost of even just the stove you guys are talking about.



May I safely assume you don't appraise real estate professionally?? :smirk: 

Think about it . . . IF the next owner could not purchase the same unit and install it as quickly and inexpensivily as you(ie, prices going up drastically, government regulation changing), then yes, there would be opportunity cost to him. But what if he wants a different unit? Or doesn't want to burn wood? Quite likely the grantee is going to give you LESS cash, as he is going to have to dispose of the unit.

If you're going to move out in a couple of years, put in a wood stove and take it with you when you go.


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## robins44 (Dec 29, 2011)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

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Then ill take the stove with me to my next home, or sell it on craigslist locally for $3,000     

Appreciate the comments, keep them coming


Thanks again


Cody


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Dec 29, 2011)

robins44 said:
			
		

> Then ill take the stove with me to my next home, or sell it on craigslist locally for $3,000
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Then buy one on CL now and save >$1k and bump up your ROI ;-)


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## muncybob (Dec 29, 2011)

IMHO, living in the house for only an add'l 5 years changes  a lot in this discussion!!  The appraisor comment is right on....the OWB would be no more an asset to the property as an inground pool would be. Actually it probably would limit the market and or sale price for your home just as the pool would. Depending on the buyer, both the pool or OWB scenario could be a liability to the seller.

If you take the OWB with you, what does the buyer have for a heating system?

If I were planing to move inside of the next 5 years I would be spending as little as possible but where I would spend any $$ on would be the items that would make the place more marketable. I guess you could spend $5k for the wood heating system...call it break even after 24 months or so and use the $$ saved in the next 3 years to broaden the market/increase the value. I also agree on why not buy a used unit in good condition and spend even less?

Good luck!


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## Singed Eyebrows (Dec 29, 2011)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

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Yep, thats right. Where's the barrel stove when we need it? Randy


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## robins44 (Dec 29, 2011)

lol, i am not in any way a realty expert. But i can tell you when i drive down my road, everyone has a owb or woodstove. Used stoves are generally hard to come by in my area, because everyone wants them. Also i will probably end up taking the stove with me to my next residence when i decide to move. All these are is big maybes, im not saying i will move for sure, i like where im at and i love my property and house, i just dont care for the 40 min one way commute. 



Cody


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Dec 29, 2011)

robins44 said:
			
		

> Also *i will probably end up taking the stove with me to my next residence when i decide to move*. All these are is big maybes, im not saying i will move for sure, i like where im at and i love my property and house, i just dont care for the 40 min one way commute.
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Then buy somrthing you'll be glad to take with you.

Many many places here in Upstate NY have OWB's also. Do they have any contributory value? :lol: 

Want some anecdotal evidence? Peruse your RE listings. See any that advertise outdoor boilers? Now try searching for 'Viessmann', 'Buderus', or similarly branded fossil fuel boilers. Notice the difference?


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## Singed Eyebrows (Dec 29, 2011)

robins44 said:
			
		

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## robins44 (Dec 29, 2011)

wow ^


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Dec 29, 2011)

LOL, Randy's just passionate about burning wood as clean and efficiently as possible.

Me, I'm passioante about 







OH! and passionate about not wasting money! And if you put your choices to a spreadsheet, you'll see that the smoke dragon is the most costly option you have.


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## stee6043 (Dec 29, 2011)

It's a bit shocking to me that so many people this year are looking at wood heat as a short term investment.

Aside from the fact that you really just want to start heating with wood (which I can completely understand) do you think you will save at LEAST $1,700 per year after you install this thing (assuming three years)?  If not, why even consider it?  I can absolutely appreciate taking something on as a hobby but you'd be better off as stated above with a $1,000 stove if you just want to break into wood heat.  Purchasing an OWB for a 3 year use case will never make fiscal sense (if you care about money).

I'll leave the "value add" topic for others to debate.  I can tell you that my gasser system barely got honorable mention on an appraisal I received this year.  It added pricesely $0.00 to the value of my home.  I'd guess that any other brand, make, model will have roughly the same effect.

Good luck with your choice.  It sounds like you've already made up your mind.  So put everyone on this thread out of their misery and just buy that sucker already.  Just know that it's probably not a wise investment, nor is it a stellar performer.  But it's likely no worse a decision than a guy driving a full size truck as a commuter, wearing a $1,000 watch or perhaps even drinking a $10 six pack of microbrew.  It is what it is....


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Dec 29, 2011)

[Multiple] $1,000's watch and still uses phone to tell time!


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## fahmahbob (Dec 29, 2011)

stee6043 said:
			
		

> Good luck with your choice.  It sounds like you've already made up your mind.  So put everyone on this thread out of their misery and just buy that sucker already.  Just know that it's probably not a wise investment, nor is it a stellar performer.  But it's likely no worse a decision than a guy driving a full size truck as a commuter, wearing a $1,000 watch or perhaps even *drinking a $10 six pack of microbrew*.  It is what it is....



Hey, I resemble that remark. I don't drink a LOT of it, but I like my beer to have taste...

To the OP - it does sound like your mind is made up, and you should certainly do what you think is best. You're young, you've got time to learn. My advice would be a wood stove since you plan on staying such a short time. But when you find your dream home, and you want to burn wood, I think you should give a gasser serious consideration.


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## pulse (Dec 29, 2011)

robins44 said:
			
		

> well i appreciate your opinions, but i only plan on living here for a few more years, and i cant justify the cost of a gasification. Around my area everyone has owb, and im hoping that this purchase will increase the value of my property as well. I can have the stove delivered, installed, and running sitting in my yard next week for a little over 5 grand. I appreciate all the help, but thats about half the cost of even just the stove you guys are talking about.
> 
> Im 24 years old, love to cut wood, and enjoy the exercise and hard work. Maybe as time goes on that will change, but for now i do enjoy the work, and the time i spend cutting the wood would probably just be time spent in front of a tv. Maybe after i sell my first house in a couple years and have a few years at my job under my belt i could consider one of the more expensive units. But for now i think this wood (haha get it) be a great stove to cut my teeth on and get a taste for heating my house with wood. All the wood i collected this year was from freinds and family, and some paid me to take it away, and there is plenty more. Even if i have to have some logs delieverd over the summer i am still at more than half the cost of propane. I realize i wont be saving much money with how long it will take for the stove to pay off, but i enjoy the work. Also it would take even more time for one of the more expensive stoves to pay off.
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Just a thought, but in 5 years I will be suprised if you can install a standard owb. It would suck if you bought it and could not move it to a new location if that is what you wanted to do. Figure a three year roi if you have all your own wood. Don't count on a used no name owb to be worth much in 5 years. If you plan on staying put and enjoy cutting wood go for it!


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## robins44 (Dec 30, 2011)

Good points!


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## varna (Dec 30, 2011)

stee6043 said:
			
		

> or perhaps even drinking a $10 six pack of microbrew.  It is what it is....



LOL..I think of someone that drinks the "cheaper beers" the same as the person who burns "wet" wood......it works but it's not nearly as good


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## martyinmi (Dec 30, 2011)

I agree with ya,varna. My wife and I traveled to Europe about 8 years ago and had the opportunity to drink many different kinds of beer that actually tasted good. Very few American beers can come close to comparing with what we consumed over there, especially our "light beers". I can't stand the taste of Bush light anymore.


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## Duetech (Dec 31, 2011)

robins44 said:
			
		

> well i appreciate your opinions, but i only plan on living here for a few more years, and i cant justify the cost of a gasification. Around my area everyone has owb, and im hoping that this purchase will increase the value of my property as well. I can have the stove delivered, installed, and running sitting in my yard next week for a little over 5 grand. I appreciate all the help, but thats about half the cost of even just the stove you guys are talking about.
> 
> Im 24 years old, love to cut wood, and enjoy the exercise and hard work. Maybe as time goes on that will change, but for now i do enjoy the work, and the time i spend cutting the wood would probably just be time spent in front of a tv. Maybe after i sell my first house in a couple years and have a few years at my job under my belt i could consider one of the more expensive units. But for now i think this wood (haha get it) be a great stove to cut my teeth on and get a taste for heating my house with wood. All the wood i collected this year was from freinds and family, and some paid me to take it away, and there is plenty more. Even if i have to have some logs delieverd over the summer i am still at more than half the cost of propane. I realize i wont be saving much money with how long it will take for the stove to pay off, but i enjoy the work. Also it would take even more time for one of the more expensive stoves to pay off.
> 
> Any comments, concerns, or b*itching is more then welcome  Tell me if you think im wrong here, i always like people to open my eyes and show another side or viewpoint   Cody



I bought a gasser and installed it myself. End product at $6500 in'06. Annual fuel oil estimates were $3200 to $4000 plus $1000 for propane for dhw (minus $4 per month to cook with).  My first three years for wood was aronud $800-$1000 total and around $500 for the fourth year. I used my gasser in the summer to generate my DHW. Fossil fuels estimate for four years was approximately $18400. My actual gasser install and cost of wood usage for the same period of time was $8000. I had no storage but if I had put storage in I think I would still have broke even long before the the four years was up. Property value would easily have been kept up at a higher value even in these more difficult times IF I could have found a buyer who appreciated the system and savings and if I were trying to sell. There are a lot of dice that roll to equate the green we see on both sides of the fence and your choice is your choice and not mine but if all you can find is high dollar gassers I hope you can look a little further. My gasser was and is an EKO40 and I have not regretted the purchase. I have cut wood since 1977 and still like the work. But after a gasser I regret the consumption of an OWB. Sometimes a fellow likes to think he is getting ahead. There is a lot of epa swirl today and some places are not allowed to install OWB's anymore. The stove you buy today may not even be allowed to operate in 2-3 years just like in other places in these here United States but I hope that is not true. Another side of the coin is this year I have spent close to $300 for  purchased wood and $200 in gas to haul free wood and most of that might be burned this season.


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## jebatty (Jan 1, 2012)

The various posts in this thread are interesting in part because they demonstrate the distinction between knowledge and culture, as well as the power of local culture to trump knowledge, and also the power of rationalization to justify a choice. A local area of a culture of OWB's is really powerful to cause others to buy an OWB to show that the buyer is "like" the buyer's neighbors. People want to fit in, even if knowledge and education argue strongly for a different choice. 

Also, we all tend to rationalize a choice, which to me means simply trying to state reasons to justify an otherwise unacceptable action. We don't like to admit to our mistakes or actions taken due to lack of or refusal to accept knowledge.

A good friend of mine built a very nice, large log home in a very rural area near where I live. The culture here is OWB. In fact, I may have the only residential gasser in the area. I had an OWB but replaced it with the gasser for all the obvious reasons. I told my friend of the benefits of the gasser, invited the friend to come and see how the gasser looked and performed, and talked about the economics of the gasser. All were ignored, and a shiny, new OWB now sits on the friends lawn, not far from the house, and gently wafts its enormous smoke output towards the house when the wind blows that direction, which it often does. Local culture trumped knowledge (or the willingness to learn) and the friend now rationalizes his choice by talking about his long burn periods of (green) wood.


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## martyinmi (Jan 1, 2012)

jebatty,
   I agree with you pertaining to the interesting posts raising the distinction between knowledge and culture....to a measured extent. Your mass storage indoor gasifier system works for you. You obviously did a fair amount of research before starting your install. It is apparent that the European method of extracting and storing gasified heat is very important to you and others. No one can take that knowledge away from you folks. It is part of who you are now. It's your perception of how your local culture ought to be, and because of the knowledge you've acquired, you are able to justify your rationalizations.
   Before I installed a gasification OWB, I also did a lot of research pertaining to unique features of both systems. I took in that knowledge, allowed my brain to digest all the information, and came to the conclusion that my system is best for me. It is by far the wisest choice for myself and many, many others. I chose not to give up the shooting range(air rifles and pistols) that I set up many years ago for my daughter(she's 30 now) in my basement. My ten year old son would have serious issues with that. No one in my household cares for the smoke,insects, or mess associated with an indoor boiler. We are not willing to give up the extra storage and recreation space to a mass storage system.
   You will never get be able to adequately illustrate the validity of your statements that you post about your particular heating system by demeaning others. By assuming that your way is the only right way, you've inadvertently exposed yourself to the accusations that you've set forth pertaining to all others who may not agree with you-namely by implying that anyone who doesn't adhere to your way of reasoning is either "uneducated" or lacks "knowledge". Your "rationalizations", therefore, imply to others that you may not have the wisdom necessary to accurately convey the knowledge you've acquired.
   Having knowledge is a great thing. Possessing God given wisdom is much, much better.

   Marty


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## Singed Eyebrows (Jan 1, 2012)

martyinmi said:
			
		

> jebatty,
> I agree with you pertaining to the interesting posts raising the distinction between knowledge and culture....to a measured extent. Your mass storage indoor gasifier system works for you. You obviously did a fair amount of research before starting your install. It is apparent that the European method of extracting and storing gasified heat is very important to you and others. No one can take that knowledge away from you folks. It is part of who you are now. It's your perception of how your local culture ought to be, and because of the knowledge you've acquired, you are able to justify your rationalizations.
> Before I installed a gasification OWB, I also did a lot of research pertaining to unique features of both systems. I took in that knowledge, allowed my brain to digest all the information, and came to the conclusion that my system is best for me. It is by far the wisest choice for myself and many, many others. I chose not to give up the shooting range(air rifles and pistols) that I set up many years ago for my daughter(she's 30 now) in my basement. My ten year old son would have serious issues with that. No one in my household cares for the smoke,insects, or mess associated with an indoor boiler. We are not willing to give up the extra storage and recreation space to a mass storage system.
> You will never get be able to adequately illustrate the validity of your statements that you post about your particular heating system by demeaning others. By assuming that your way is the only right way, you've inadvertently exposed yourself to the accusations that you've set forth pertaining to all others who may not agree with you-namely by implying that anyone who doesn't adhere to your way of reasoning is either "uneducated" or lacks "knowledge". Your "rationalizations", therefore, imply to others that you may not have the wisdom necessary to accurately convey the knowledge you've acquired.
> ...


Jim's way is the only way if you care about clean air. I'm quite sure he did not lump gasification OWB's with the smoke dragons, Randy


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## jebatty (Jan 1, 2012)

Marty, I don't think we disagree at all on the value of knowledge and the impact of culture. 





> You obviously did a fair amount of research before starting your install.


 I wish in fact I had done the research before I bought the Tarm. My knowledge was buying a farm with an OWB installed in 1997 and operating it through the winter of 2005-2006; seeing a Tarm at a forestry meeting in March 2006; aware of how much wood I was burning and the effort it took to cut split and stack 1-2 years supply of wood for the OWB; aware of the amount of smoke that blew all over the place, especially towards the house, and the smell and health impact of that; having a neighbor stop by once thinking the place was on fire by the amount of smoke; and enough research to indicate that the Tarm would likely burn 1/3 to 1/2 the amount of wood and be largely smoke free. That was the extent of my knowledge before I bought.

Then, with no experience at all, I undertook the install myself, following one of the plumbing concept drawings in the Tarm manual. I started with open storage using 3 old fuel tanks in series; many plumbing mistakes which led to considerable extra cost; and wondering what I got myself into. The I found Hearth.com in January 2008 and was "saved" by the advice, expertise, patience, and ultimately much education on my part well beyond what the forum provided. That's where I am now, and enjoying the 3rd re-do of my system, now performing to meet or exceed all reasonable expectations I have. Lots of money, lots of time, lots of mistakes, lots of learning -- and making the benefits, I hope, of all that available to others.

You have a gasification OWB, my comment was related to the traditional OWB, and I think you understood my comment in that light. You likely became far more educated than I did, since I barely had none, before becoming the owner of your system. Things have come a long way since 2007. They have a long way to go. 

I look forward to the next advance in knowledge and culture regarding use of biomass (or other energy source) for space heating and DHW. I may be an early adopter. I embrace change. I enjoy the present and look forward to a more healthy and positive future for all of creation. I let the past go, remembering the good times and enough of my mistakes to, hopefully, not repeat them again. But I think it would be a mistake to label me fixed in a culture, or clinging to a culture once new knowledge becomes available. And that was a point I wanted to make.


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## martyinmi (Jan 1, 2012)

Jim,
   I'm not trying to argue about whether gasification is a good thing or not. All reasonable persons should be able to see it's positive environmental impacts, as well as the benefits of reduced consumption. And how can we put a price on happy neighbors? The point I am trying to illustrate is that if we want others to even consider a more environmentally friendly approach to home heating, we have to talk to them, not about them. We need to enthusiastically teach on a level field, as opposed to dictating downward. How many times have we all witnessed rebellion because of horrible communication. People will refuse to learn if they are made to feel inferior.
   It's understood what you and I would like others to understand. The teaching process is where we disagree. Sometimes we may have to reluctantly embrace someone's antique technologies a bit to aid in the introduction and implementation of ours. Re-read your post and you'll see what I'm saying.

Randy,
   Jim's way is not the only way-but that's an entirely different thread.


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## Frozen Canuck (Jan 1, 2012)

martyinmi said:
			
		

> jebatty,
> I agree with you pertaining to the interesting posts raising the distinction between knowledge and culture....to a measured extent. Your mass storage indoor gasifier system works for you. You obviously did a fair amount of research before starting your install. It is apparent that the European method of extracting and storing gasified heat is very important to you and others. No one can take that knowledge away from you folks. It is part of who you are now. It's your perception of how your local culture ought to be, and because of the knowledge you've acquired, you are able to justify your rationalizations.
> Before I installed a gasification OWB, I also did a lot of research pertaining to unique features of both systems. I took in that knowledge, allowed my brain to digest all the information, and came to the conclusion that my system is best for me. It is by far the wisest choice for myself and many, many others. I chose not to give up the shooting range(air rifles and pistols) that I set up many years ago for my daughter(she's 30 now) in my basement. My ten year old son would have serious issues with that. No one in my household cares for the smoke,insects, or mess associated with an indoor boiler. We are not willing to give up the extra storage and recreation space to a mass storage system.
> You will never get be able to adequately illustrate the validity of your statements that you post about your particular heating system by demeaning others. By assuming that your way is the only right way, you've inadvertently exposed yourself to the accusations that you've set forth pertaining to all others who may not agree with you-namely by implying that anyone who doesn't adhere to your way of reasoning is either "uneducated" or lacks "knowledge". Your "rationalizations", therefore, imply to others that you may not have the wisdom necessary to accurately convey the knowledge you've acquired.
> ...




Wow....just wow.

If anyone had any doubts that you were in love with your OWB & would tolerate no opinions to the contrary no matter how well educated/informed/experienced they may be you sure cleared that up. 

Ignored all the relevant facts in anyone arriving at a decision that any OWB is not the best way to go in the process as well. 

"Think", why do no western EU nations allow OWB's to be sold, hooked up or operated? 

After all they have been using gassers far longer than us, if OWB's were truly a better way one would "think" that they would be all over them right?

Reminds me of that T-shirt....you think education is expensive....try ignorance.

BTW if you have not guessed it yet most of us consider the "been there done that members" like Jim & so many others who regularly contribute so much to the knowledge base in this boiler room, to be totally of limits AFA anything resembling a flame.

I am totally OK with you coming after me for instance. However if/when you do, please bring the laws of physics & thermodynamics with you. Those laws agree with Jim's point of view if you will & disagree with yours, so I will at some time be asking you to explain how those laws do not apply to you or your OWB, or any OWB for that matter.


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## martyinmi (Jan 1, 2012)

canuck,
   Wow...just wow.... hits the nail on the head!
   Please take the time to re-read my above posts. We are on the same side, right? We need more people on board with us where burning smoke is concerned. That is my goal, whether it be a efficient mass storage system or an efficient OWB gasser. Do you really think you are persuading anyone to jump on the gasification bandwagon by attempting to change the focal point of this discussion? The simple point I am trying to illustrate is that there is sometimes more than one way to achieve an end result.
   I refuse to bring up any witty t-shirt sayings that may apply to this situation. I would, however, ask you to keep in mind all individuals who may be reading this thread. I'm sure one of the main purposes of this site in particular would be to help educate people about the many efficient ways that are available to heat their homes without fossil fuel dependency.

   Marty


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## Singed Eyebrows (Jan 1, 2012)

martyinmi said:
			
		

> Jim,
> I'm not trying to argue about whether gasification is a good thing or not. All reasonable persons should be able to see it's positive environmental impacts, as well as the benefits of reduced consumption. And how can we put a price on happy neighbors? The point I am trying to illustrate is that if we want others to even consider a more environmentally friendly approach to home heating, we have to talk to them, not about them. We need to enthusiastically teach on a level field, as opposed to dictating downward. How many times have we all witnessed rebellion because of horrible communication. People will refuse to learn if they are made to feel inferior.
> It's understood what you and I would like others to understand. The teaching process is where we disagree. Sometimes we may have to reluctantly embrace someone's antique technologies a bit to aid in the introduction and implementation of ours. Re-read your post and you'll see what I'm saying.
> 
> ...


You might have misunderstood. Gasification is the only way to burn wood really clean & thats what I meant by Jim's way. In any event you are a reasonable person & I don't think I can come up with too much to argue about, Randy


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## jebatty (Jan 1, 2012)

My post on culture really had more to do with how people act and think and the power of culture to affect that. It wasn't judging users of OWBs as good or bad, nor users of gasification boilers as good or bad. Culture affects so many other things we do, like what kind of car or truck we buy, what size of house we have, whether we go to see and hear opera or grunge bands, what we wear, what sports we watch or play, how many children we have, etc. 

Culture also impacts whether or not individuals look to knowledge and science for information to guide their decisions, or whether they look to profit or loss as the guide, or whether they look to a particular religious view as the guide, etc.

Culture preserves, expresses and reinforces uniform values in an ascribing population. And I think it is important to discover the values underlying a culture or behavior, to test those value against a variety of things that people say are important to them, to determine whether or not what a person says are his/her value are in fact demonstrated in the person's behavior.

And in the end I think that behavior creates the values needed to sustain that behavior, not that values cause a certain behavior. 

I guess my post had more to do with thoughtful discussion of the reasons for behaviors in the wood burning boiler arena than anything else. 

Let's move on to answer questions such as "how hot does wood get when it burns?"


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Jan 2, 2012)

Every situation is somewhat different. As a GENERAL RULE, OWB's are going to be on the low end of the overall-efficiency stats. At the same time, long burn times appeal to many people, an that is targeted by the OWB sellers.

People with knowledge know ways around the burn time issue.

Maybe my viewpoint is somewhat affectedby the fact that I use a Refractory Mass Natural Draft hydronic. I consider it somewhere between an OWB and a Euro-style down-draft. I'm not in the business of recommending any one brand or even any one style.

But I'm a fan of making these decisions based on numbers. And if the OP runs the numbers, I think he'll see that the OWB is more expensive over the holding period.

And if the OP thinks that the OWB will contribute more to the market value of his property than it will cost, well . . .  I'll simply recommend that he talk with some pros in his area to get the facts on that whole issue.

I have more friends with OWB's than ones with 'gassers'. Itwas a choicethatworked for them at the time. Some at least would go a different route today.

Just one guys opinion ... OWB-users are welcome here. I bet we can ALL learn something here.

Rock On!


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## goosegunner (Jan 2, 2012)

Most would say wood boilers add ZERO value to your home.

gg


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## heaterman (Jan 2, 2012)

Aside from all that.......

You mentioned in one of your posts that you don't plan on being in that house very long. If that's the case (4-6 years) you won't realize a return on your investment. You'd be far better off taking that $6,000+ and investing in insulation for the house. 

If you are determined to install a wood burner you would be far better served by putting a nice stove in the house than an outdoor burner, even if you have to put up a chimney. You'll go through 1/4 of the wood.

If you still decide to pull the trigger on a hydronic unit, send me a PM if you get up near Cadillac. I can show you some different kinds of HWH's (hydronic wood heaters) in operation and you can see for yourself what you are getting into.  

You took a great first step by asking questions here.


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## heaterman (Jan 2, 2012)

And on another note.......For all of the folks that have Gasification OWB's.......hang on to your hats when you see the revised efficiency ratings for them.

 I really do feel sorry for those folks who bought an EPA Phase 1 or 2 OWB based on the efficiency rating published by the manufacturer.  New and more accurate testing is proving to be substantially less than advertised numbers.


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## coolidge (Jan 2, 2012)

Heaterman,  When do you suppose those numbers will be published?     I have the optimizer 250   althought it does a good job i do believe it could be better, maybe with an indoor gasser?


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## Singed Eyebrows (Jan 3, 2012)

coolidge said:
			
		

> Heaterman,  When do you suppose those numbers will be published?     I have the optimizer 250   althought it does a good job i do believe it could be better, maybe with an indoor gasser?


Chances are you will burn a lot less wood if you clean your boiler often. That Scotch boiler design has a lot of tubes & exchange area. If it gets coated though its all almost for nothing. That sure looks like a nice OWB, Randy


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## heaterman (Jan 3, 2012)

coolidge said:
			
		

> Heaterman,  When do you suppose those numbers will be published?     I have the optimizer 250   althought it does a good job i do believe it could be better, maybe with an indoor gasser?



I would hope within a year or sooner but the way the wheels of government turn......who knows?  

I have seen preliminary tests that reflect conditions more similar to real world use (cordwood) and they are substantially different than the 80, 90 and even 100% numbers that are/were being quoted by some manufacturers and also listed on the EPA website. The P&M gasser was not listed on the document I saw.


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## skfire (Jan 3, 2012)

jebatty said:
			
		

> Culture also impacts whether or not individuals look to knowledge and science for information to guide their decisions, or whether they look to profit or loss as the guide, or whether they look to a particular religious view as the guide, etc.
> 
> Culture preserves, expresses and reinforces uniform values in an ascribing population. And I think it is important to discover the values underlying a culture or behavior, to test those value against a variety of things that people say are important to them, to determine whether or not what a person says are his/her value are in fact demonstrated in the person's behavior.
> 
> ...



+1 Jim.

I find the following in line with your thesis regarding cultural behavior:

_"We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly."
Aristotle_

Scott


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## coolidge (Jan 3, 2012)

It does a very good job and half the wood of my old tarm mb 55. Cleaning is dedicated to Saturday morning no matter what.


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## robins44 (Jan 4, 2012)

Wow this thread turned into something else lol


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## tawilson1152 (Jan 4, 2012)

robins44 said:
			
		

> Wow this thread turned into something else lol


I think that's the third "wow" I've seen. Gotta be a record for one thread.


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## varna (Jan 4, 2012)

robins44 said:
			
		

> Wow this thread turned into something else lol



LOL....told you in post #2 how much they like OWB's here....


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## martyinmi (Jan 4, 2012)

varna said:
			
		

> robins44 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Like is not necessarily the word I'd use. I seem to have gotten a fairly good butt chewin'. Good thing my Creator has blessed me with an abundant supply where butts are concerned :cheese:
In due time they will come to understand that we are all in the same boat ;-)


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## robins44 (Jan 5, 2012)

Lol, ya not to freindly lol 




Thanks marty and varna


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## varna (Jan 5, 2012)

robins44 said:
			
		

> Lol, ya not to freindly lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Your quite welcome. Did you check out the link I gave Ya? I "think" marty is over there as well.


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## robins44 (Jan 5, 2012)

Yup sure did sir, and marty found me


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## robins44 (Jan 5, 2012)

Yup sure did sir, and marty found me over there.


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## Mauler (Jan 5, 2012)

heaterman said:
			
		

> coolidge said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



was the outdoor econoburn on that document? I'm still waiting to see if NYDEC will revise their list, I'm planing on an OWB and I really want that one. Dale at econoburn spells out a lot of politics involved, and says he can't sell the outdoor econoburn in NY, but I really want one (if it is truly better then the others?). Otherwise, based on what I've read here, of the ones listed by NYDEC I'd only consider the outdoor profab or the P & M optimizer.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/chemical/73694.html


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Jan 5, 2012)

Not sure what the site *OWNER* thinks, but I think OWB people are welcome here. I'd bet Craig agrees with me, on that point.

If you give the guys here a chance, you will find out that some of them used an OWB before they went with their current 'secondary cumbustion' units. 

But there is a difference between a member who had an OWB B4 he got here and wants to use his unit as efficiently as possible, and a member who is contemplating a purchase and reduces his decision to purchase price and loads per day.

The last guy needs way more education than the first guy. Some of us just ain't great in the education skills department ;-)


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## leaddog (Jan 6, 2012)

I have to agreeon going to a gaser over an OWB but.............. I had two OWB's plus a HASSA before going to my EKO and when I had them I loved them for all the reasons others have. I really didn't realize just how bad they were. I loved not having to split any wood and if I needed more just go out and cut it. I know lots of people making them and buying used ones but buying a new one I feel it would be better to buy a gaser. That said be sure and do this..........
DON"T buy the pre insulated pipe.  Go to the sticky here at the top and read about insulated lines. FOAM is the why to go. WE"VE had a very mild winter this year but heating the groundwon't help when we do get some snow and you have that bare strip where your lines run. Trust me you will be putting alot of wood in anyboiler to melt snow if you don't install your lines right. I know I've redone mine three times.
Also there was some VERY good advise above on how to run an OWB. Small loads of DRY wood and feed them more often. Trust me you can fill them up to the top and get the same heat as if you only fill them small a couple times a day. They will burn what you put in them. My neighbor learned that last spring. He ran out of wood and started to burn green oak. He told me that he burnt about three times the amount that he was burning before. Even at $100 a cord he used more in that last 6wks than he had used all winter. Remember, wet wood is full of water and you have to boil all the water out before you get any btu's. Some where on here a guy took a oak block and weighed it when it was green, dryed it and put it back on the scales and put a jar with it and added water to bring the wt. back to the original. The block was 7inx7inx11in. It took almost a quart of water to bring it up to wt. Now take a quart of water and put it on your stove and boil it untill gone. That is how much heat you wasted with wet wood.
DRY WOOD and VERY WELL INSULATED LINES. Those are the two most important things for any boiler period.
Leaddog


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## otisbacon (Feb 1, 2012)

I'm in my 3rd season with a Central Boiler unit in da U.P..  Even though I cut and haul 10 full cords a year, I'm still not working as hard as I did when I was bucking stuff up to 16", splitting the trunk rounds, and chucking it into the basement 1 face cord at a time.  I built a 10 cord wood bin adjacent to the unit, bring it from the woods in 4-5' lengths, (unless they're trunk rounds), put it in the shed, and the next move is to the unit.  I cut my number of handlings in half.  The rounds I don't have to split, but just cut to a length I can handle.

I had a hot water baseboard system in the house, so a 90 plate exchanger has done the job nicely and we enjoy even heat throughout the house.  I agree with some of the others on the crosslines.  Use a thermopex.  Put it down 18-24", deeper if you drive over it, and it doesn't hurt to put insulation board on top it before backfilling.  Consider placement of the unit on the leeside of your home with consideration to neighbors too when it comes to the smoke.  When they're burning hard they really put out the smoke.

Enjoy.


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