# Help heating garage



## ArsenalDon (Jan 13, 2013)

I know there are a lot of DIY guys out there. I just built an 800sqft garage. It is insulated all around with R19 in the walls and R34 above. Insulated garage door and double paned windows. How well insulated...-1F last night and garage got down to 43....that is not bad. So here is the question.

I do not want to use anything that requires venting, but I want to have a heater in there. Kerosene is out as is a wood stove. I want to spend $100 or less. Recommendations please that will not cost too much to run?


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## seige101 (Jan 13, 2013)

8' piece of electric baseboard. No venting and  under $100


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## Jack Straw (Jan 13, 2013)

I also vote for electric, not sure that an 8' baseboard is enough though. I'd look into a ceiling mount w/blower. Baseboard tends to take up a lot of valuable wall space, I know because my garage has it.


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## ArsenalDon (Jan 13, 2013)

I do not have baseboard space....I am thinking electric too....brand recommendations? BTU recommendations?


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## EatenByLimestone (Jan 13, 2013)

You can buy small fan assisted electric heaters.  Lowes and HD have them next to the electric baseboards.  

Matt


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## ArsenalDon (Jan 13, 2013)

Yes folks.....I know HD, Lowes, Amazon, everyone has electric heaters.....I was hoping for recommendations....anyone that is using something that they love please let me know


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## FanMan (Jan 13, 2013)

For occasional use electric might be OK, but it's going to get expensive if you use it a lot.  Why unvented?  A direct vent propane heater is easy to install on an outside wall might be a good choice.  If you can live with the water vapor it produces, a "vent free" (i.e. room vented) would be less expensive.


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## Pallet Pete (Jan 13, 2013)

What about an oil radiant heater they work very well ! Something along these lines.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Optimus-Portable-Oil-Filled-Radiator-Heater/15162311

Pete


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## flyingcow (Jan 13, 2013)

Pallet Pete said:


> What about an oil radiant heater they work very well ! Something along these lines.
> 
> http://www.walmart.com/ip/Optimus-Portable-Oil-Filled-Radiator-Heater/15162311
> 
> Pete


 
I've used a couple of these over the yrs. They don't work well,IMO.


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## flyingcow (Jan 13, 2013)

$100 or less, you limit it. I'd go(as mentioned above) with a ceiling mounted electric unit. May be into the few hundred bucks to get a good one.

Your garage isn't huge, but it is good sized.Do you want to heat it all the time? Will you need to keep it above freezing all the time? Is it attached to the house?

Your electric rates probably aren't as high as ours in the Northeast. We're touchy about electric heat up here.


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## hydes2004 (Jan 13, 2013)

Eaton pure heater? Its electric and pretty efficient.  I saw one at Bj's wholesale club last week on sale.  I know its over your budget but it will be much better than a baseboard and consume less electricity.  The saving would be beneficial in the long run.


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## Pallet Pete (Jan 13, 2013)

hydes2004 said:


> Eaton pure heater? Its electric and pretty efficient.  I saw one at Bj's wholesale club last week on sale.  I know its over your budget but it will be much better than a baseboard and consume less electricity.  The saving would be beneficial in the long run.



I had an eaten pure and went broke running the darn thing it was a major electricity hog.

Pete


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## milleo (Jan 13, 2013)

Get a milk room utility heater they have proven themselfs over the years and all electric heaters cost the same to run.


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## flyingcow (Jan 13, 2013)

In general terms, electric heat is created equal. Eaton makes money claiming they're better. IMO, they're profits are better, maybe.

I go with the milk room unit. I don't have a link. But they do work nice.


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## Butcher (Jan 13, 2013)

Got a gas grill with a 20 lbs. cylinder? Go to your local sporting goods store or a wally world and get a double burner propane radiant heater.


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## milleo (Jan 13, 2013)

Butcher said:


> Got a gas grill with a 20 lbs. cylinder? Go to your local sporting goods store or a wally world and get a double burner propane radiant heater.


They work good but  should have a window open or something for ventilation.


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## ArsenalDon (Jan 13, 2013)

flyingcow said:


> $100 or less, you limit it. I'd go(as mentioned above) with a ceiling mounted electric unit. May be into the few hundred bucks to get a good one.
> 
> Your garage isn't huge, but it is good sized.Do you want to heat it all the time? Will you need to keep it above freezing all the time? Is it attached to the house?
> 
> Your electric rates probably aren't as high as ours in the Northeast. We're touchy about electric heat up here.


It is attached. Has not gotten to freezing yet and we had -1F last night. Stays above 40 probably because it is attached. Do not need it heated all the time, on demand is good enough.


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## ArsenalDon (Jan 13, 2013)

milleo said:


> Get a milk room utility heater they have proven themselfs over the years and all electric heaters cost the same to run.


This could be the deal....anyone using one?


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## Danno77 (Jan 13, 2013)

Don Williams said:


> This could be the deal....anyone using one?


Just terminology for a metal utility looking version with the same guts as any plastic ones you see in the electric space heater isle at your local store. You'll need a couple and they'll run at about 1500 watts each. Depending on what your wiring is like, you could be tripping if run on the same circuit. Personally, I think this is probably the way to go if you are against a direct vent wall mount gas heater, which wold be a cleaner more permanent solution.


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## ArsenalDon (Jan 13, 2013)

Danno77 said:


> Just terminology for a metal utility looking version with the same guts as any plastic ones you see in the electric space heater isle at your local store. You'll need a couple and they'll run at about 1500 watts each. Depending on what your wiring is like, you could be tripping if run on the same circuit. Personally, I think this is probably the way to go if you are against a direct vent wall mount gas heater, which wold be a cleaner more permanent solution.


Only gas we have is propane...before our wood stove our propane bills were $600 a month...trying to keep this down to a min...but maybe propane is cheaper than electric...only need it a few hours a day at most. propane is $3.75 per gallon here


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## ironpony (Jan 13, 2013)

however you decide to heat it remember there are alot of things in the garage that can go BOOM and might react with an open flame heat source, I have a heat pump forced air in the garage to eliminate the possible ignition sources. I do alot of work out there and one time when I was using a natural gas wall mounted heater the product I was using reacted with the flame and brought me to my knees. luckily I was coherent enough to get into the house. after a little whil went back out and felt the effects, realizing what was going on I turned off the heater and learned a lesson. Sometimes now I use a torpedo heater to raise the temp quicly and then shut it down before doing anything.


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## begreen (Jan 13, 2013)

milleo said:


> Get a milk room utility heater they have proven themselfs over the years and all electric heaters cost the same to run.


 
Get a couple of them. They are like $16 on sale. Plug each one into a separate circuit so that you don't trip the breaker. And stay away from the Eden Pure crap. That's a marketing scam.

This is the unit I got on sale for my shop. I use it in the greenhouse too when the temps are low.
http://www.truevalue.com/product/Heating-Cooling/Heaters/Electric-Heaters/Milkhouse-Utility-Convection-Heater/pc/7/c/105/sc/1151/2036.uts


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## ArsenalDon (Jan 13, 2013)

is it safe to use a patio propane heater in the garage?


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## nate379 (Jan 13, 2013)

How is your house heated? Boiler?
Could tie into that and run a hanging heater.

Electric is going to cost whatever your rate is. 1500 watt plug in 120v heater uses 1.5kwh.

Do you just want a heater in there to keep it above freezing?

Do you want to heat only when you are working in there, maybe a few hours a week? If so, what would be comfortable?

240v or only 120v in the garage?

How tall is the ceiling?


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## seige101 (Jan 13, 2013)

hydes2004 said:


> Eaton pure heater? Its electric and pretty efficient. I saw one at Bj's wholesale club last week on sale. I know its over your budget but it will be much better than a baseboard and consume less electricity. The saving would be beneficial in the long run.


False False False. An electric space heater is an electric space heater. a $15 space heater will work just as well as a $400 eden pure heater.


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## ArsenalDon (Jan 14, 2013)

nate379 said:


> How is your house heated? Boiler?
> Could tie into that and run a hanging heater.
> 
> Electric is going to cost whatever your rate is. 1500 watt plug in 120v heater uses 1.5kwh.
> ...


NATE: virtually all of the questions you asked I have answered except....ceiling is 9 feet and we have 120v only....never expected answers pulled out of a hat....just curious what others were using so I could figure out good options.


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## ArsenalDon (Jan 14, 2013)

Don Williams said:


> Personally I think it's odd that you built a good sized garage, insulated it fairly well and THEN decide maybe to heat it?


Sorry I did not have your foresight...OBVIOUSLY you are a much more intelligent human being and have way more money than I do...sorry I did not live up to your expectations.


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## MasterMech (Jan 14, 2013)

Don Williams said:


> NATE: virtually all of the questions you asked I have answered except....ceiling is 9 feet and we have 120v only....never expected answers pulled out of a hat....just curious what others were using so I could figure out good options.


 
You're gonna need a lot of 1500W space heaters to get that garage up to temp on a cold day.  Shame no 240V out there.  I think direct-vent propane is your answer since you already have the fuel.


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## Brokenwing (Jan 14, 2013)

We have used a Eden pure in a area for the past 3 years 24 7 in the winter, that the pellet stove does not heat.  It keep that area at 78 degrees, and hardly any change in the electric bill.  I swear by them.


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## ArsenalDon (Jan 14, 2013)

MasterMech said:


> You're gonna need a lot of 1500W space heaters to get that garage up to temp on a cold day. Shame no 240V out there. I think direct-vent propane is your answer since you already have the fuel.


You may be right...and since the tanks are just outside the garage it may be pretty easy to get it plumbed...that will have to be a summer project though...the cost of the garaged tapped me out!


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## nate379 (Jan 14, 2013)

Boiler for your house? Tie into it for the garage heater. My boiler runs the heat for my house and garage. Happens to be slab heat but a hanging heater would work fine as well.

Your going to either need a decent sized 240v heater or some sort of fuel burning unit otherwise. Or run about 1/2 a dozen plug in 1500w heaters.

One of my friends "heated" his garage with 2 of them, garage was about 500sq ft. If it was 30* outside and 45ish in the garage it would raise the temp to around 55* with them running non stop overnight.

The fact that your garage is staying at 45* with it -1* is because the house is keeping it warm.  Not exactly a good thing.



Don Williams said:


> Sorry I did not have your foresight...OBVIOUSLY you are a much more intelligent human being and have way more money than I do...sorry I did not live up to your expectations.


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## ArsenalDon (Jan 14, 2013)

Don Williams said:


> Personally I think it's odd that you built a good sized garage, insulated it fairly well and THEN decide maybe to heat it?


Talk about insulting.....yell at me with CAPS about being too dumb to foresee heating...every penny I had went into building this project...tapped out my man.



Don Williams said:


> OP you are providing VERY LITTLE info and expecting people to pull answers out of a hat.


Then yelling again in CAPS about providing little when everyone else did pretty well with what I had provided....My signature tells how I heat....it is all we use to heat.


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## nate379 (Jan 14, 2013)

I didn't say you were dumb.

Signatures don't show up for me, or anyone else that uses Tapatalk.


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## jebatty (Jan 14, 2013)

Short term solution, or maybe long term if the short term works, and very inexpensive would be a couple of 1500w - 120V heaters. Local big box has these for less than $20 each. You will need more than one - 120v - 20amp circuit, because each will need its own circuit. If you have more than one - 120v - 20amp circuit, you may have 240v available, if the separate 120v circuits pull from different feeders off your main panel. You may be able to create a 240v circuit. While using electric heat though, you may be using most of your available amperage and not be able to run much other electric at the same time.

My shop, well insulated, at 32 x 48 x 14, has wood boiler hot water in-floor radiant, and I use a 240v - 5000w backup space heater. Importantly, I can use 2 - 1500w - 120v space heaters and they will also keep the shop well above freezing. I use the 240v heater because I have it as a left-over from a home remodel years ago when I used it to keep the house above freezing while I re-did the heating in the house.


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## maple1 (Jan 14, 2013)

The cheapest to buy for now, will be electric space heaters, as mentioned several times. But the electric bill might bite bad later.

The cheapest to operate (well, and buy too, I guess), will be leaving a door or window open to your house periodically to get some of your wood stove heat out there - maybe throw a fan in the open whatever for a little while to move the heat out.

Since you say you're tapped out, I'd do choice 2 - and maybe do some planning now for next year. The propane unit suggestion might be your best choice - but if you do a BTU equivalent operating cost breakdown between electric & propane using your costs for each and they come out pretty close, then electric might be the better choice.


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## Highbeam (Jan 14, 2013)

Hey man, I know your pain. I was just working in my new 30x60 uninsulated shop this weekend and the thermometer said 35 in there. I was huddled around a tank top 15000 btu propane mr heater that is about like a range top burner. Heat for your hands but that's it.

Your budget is only 100$. That will drive the solution. Go to a pawn shop or CL and acquire a used torpedo heater. Propane is better than kerosene/diesel. Remember, this is a temporary solution so don't worry about perfection. In the end, you can mount a hanging unit heater or an electric furnace or whatever but those all cost way way more than 100$. 

I use a 1500 watt "milkhouse" heater with a thermostat in the RV (parked in the shop) to keep it from freezing. Those things don't make much heat. You'd need lots of watts, think 10kw like a furnace, to make a rapid temperature rise in your shop.


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## Danno77 (Jan 14, 2013)

have you done one of those BTU calculators with your space and insulation specs? That should show you how much heat you need, then you can go from there.

I'm still of the mindset that you should throw a couple of cheap electric heaters in there and see what happens until the time you can swing a better alternative. I think your insulation is such that you might get better results than others are suggesting, but there's only one way to be sure.


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## flyingcow (Jan 14, 2013)

seige101- you are correct. I like the ads for the Amish made  electric heaters.That one always makes me chuckle.


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## RichVT (Jan 14, 2013)

My last house had an oil boiler. For my garage I ended up installing a kick space heater on its own zone. Worked well enough and wasn't too expensive.

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...ads-_-pla-_-202312951&ci_gpa=pla#.UPSATR1EHTo


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## stee6043 (Jan 15, 2013)

For what it's worth I have a roughly 860 square foot garage that I heat with a 100,000btu Solaronics vent free ceramic infrared heater. It's overkill for a garage my size. I'd say mine is insulated as well as yours, maybe a bit better over top.

When I replace the ventless unit I'm using I will be buying a forced air unit and installing a vent. Something like the Mr Heater units you can get at Lowes. I'll be looking for something in the 50-75k btu range which will still be more than I need, but I like it to heat up fast.


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## ArsenalDon (Jan 15, 2013)

stee6043 said:


> For what it's worth I have a roughly 860 square foot garage that I heat with a 100,000btu Solaronics vent free ceramic infrared heater. It's overkill for a garage my size. I'd say mine is insulated as well as yours, maybe a bit better over top.
> 
> When I replace the ventless unit I'm using I will be buying a forced air unit and installing a vent. Something like the Mr Heater units you can get at Lowes. I'll be looking for something in the 50-75k btu range which will still be more than I need, but I like it to heat up fast.


And you want to change things up why????


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## stee6043 (Jan 16, 2013)

Don Williams said:


> And you want to change things up why????


 
I'm not a big fan of the ventless setup, personally.  The moisture "problem" I've read a lot about is 100% a myth but the fact is that the byproducts of combustion are going right into the heated space.  I can notice it on those days of long projects in the garage in February.  I'd prefer get a vented unit eventually for the added safety and comfort.

And in my case my heater was a freebie.  It just needed some minor repair.  Ultimately a 100k btu infrared unit is not entirely suitable for a 10' ceiling garage. 

It was always intended to be temporary for me.  I just hate to part with $500 on a new heater when the one I have works so well.  But it needs to go...eventually.


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## ArsenalDon (Jan 16, 2013)

W


stee6043 said:


> I'm not a big fan of the ventless setup, personally. The moisture "problem" I've read a lot about is 100% a myth but the fact is that the byproducts of combustion are going right into the heated space. I can notice it on those days of long projects in the garage in February. I'd prefer get a vented unit eventually for the added safety and comfort.
> 
> And in my case my heater was a freebie. It just needed some minor repair. Ultimately a 100k btu infrared unit is not entirely suitable for a 10' ceiling garage.
> 
> It was always intended to be temporary for me. I just hate to part with $500 on a new heater when the one I have works so well. But it needs to go...eventually.


Wish we were closer, I would come and buy it off ya!


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 16, 2013)

Forget about those overpriced $300 "miracle " heater boxes (edenpure ect)     If going electric any kind of radiant heater. Mine only use half as much electricity and seem to warm as well or better than straight resistance electric heaters.They come in all shapes and sizes. You can get ones that hang from the ceiling and warm the floor. IF going propane get a vented one.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 16, 2013)

seige101 said:


> False False False. An electric space heater is an electric space heater. a $15 space heater will work just as well as a $400 eden pure heater.


Exactly THey use 1500 watts ,and produces EXACTLY the same BTUs as the wal,mart $15 blower style heater. Go radiant if electric.


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## ArsenalDon (Jan 16, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Exactly THey use 1500 watts ,and produces EXACTLY the same BTUs as the wal,mart $15 blower style heater. Go radiant if electric.


 


Seasoned Oak said:


> False False False. An electric space heater is an electric space heater. a $15 space heater will work just as well as a $400 eden pure heater.


Thanks guys....Great advice....for now, Walmart here I come....well not literally now, nearest one 2 hours away...but soon!


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 16, 2013)

Brokenwing said:


> We have used a Eden pure in a area for the past 3 years 24 7 in the winter, that the pellet stove does not heat. It keep that area at 78 degrees, and hardly any change in the electric bill. I swear by them.


Any electric 1500w heater will use about $3.60 a day if run 24 Hrs on high THats $108.00 a month for Each heater at 10c a Kwh. IF yours uses less than its not "on" all the time or not on high. Has nothing to do with the fact that its an "eden whatever' Chances are it cycles on and off. You would get the same results with the $15 wallmart heater.


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## Brokenwing (Jan 16, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Forget about those overpriced $300 "miracle " heater boxes (edenpure ect) If going electric any kind of radiant heater. Mine only use half as much electricity and seem to warm as well or better than straight resistance electric heaters.They come in all shapes and sizes. You can get ones that hang from the ceiling and warm the floor. IF going propane get a vented one.


 
That makes me laugh a miracle heater,  Have you tried one.  Are house has always been warm with a very low electric bill.  Dont knock it till you try it.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 16, 2013)

Brokenwing said:


> That makes me laugh a miracle heater, Have you tried one. Are house has always been warm with a very low electric bill. Dont knock it till you try it.


My local newspaper is filled with slightly used models for pennies on the dollar,it appears your results may vary. I suspect your low operating cost is due to the fact your area is not that cold and the electric heater is only giving you a few additional degrees cuz there is no  miracle discovery that im aware of that gets you any more than 5000 BTUs from 1500 Watts. Any other electric heater would likely give you the same results.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 16, 2013)

Don
The reason i suggest a radiant type heater cuz it heats objects it touches rather than the air so it makes the area feel warmer while using less electricity than traditional models. GO to your local home depot and stand at the checkout .That warmth form above is coming from a radiant heater hanging from the ceiling.


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## Eaglecraft (Jan 17, 2013)

Don Williams said:


> I know there are a lot of DIY guys out there. I just built an 800sqft garage. It is insulated all around with R19 in the walls and R34 above. Insulated garage door and double paned windows. How well insulated...-1F last night and garage got down to 43....that is not bad. So here is the question.
> 
> I do not want to use anything that requires venting, but I want to have a heater in there. Kerosene is out as is a wood stove. I want to spend $100 or less. Recommendations please that will not cost too much to run?


 

Don:

Natural gas will be cheapest to run, but it requires venting and the units are not under $100.

Several years back I insulated my attached garage - about 30 feet by 40 feet in size - with R19 in the walls, R52 in the ceiling, and installed a steel, foam cored double garage door, having one good sized window with double pane and low-E glass, etc.

I heat this structure with two King Compact Room Heaters - PAW Series, Pic-A-Watt, specifically PAW24221. They are about 6 inches high by 12 inches wide by 4 inches deep. They fit inside a wall can that comes with the heater. These are both 240 Volt units that I run at 1500 watts each, for a total of 3000 watts when operating. I used an old electric water heater circuit rated for 30 amps? I don't remember - that we replaced with natural gas. I have a thermostat that I set for 50 degrees F - just to keep things from freezing. These are wall mounted units - mounted between the wall studs. They have blower motor fans and I have no trouble keeping my garage well above 50 degrees.

The nice thing about the Pic-A-Watt series is that you can select the current input from 500 Watts to 2250 watts just by changing the arrangement of the internal jumper wires. You can change these jumper wires after the fact so that you can increase or decrease the power of the unit at will. I have been running these units for four years now - with no issues.

These wall mounted units are much safer, more durable and more flexible that the Milk-House-Heaters. I went through several of the Milk-House-Heaters in the past. I found that they tended to rust, and the thermostats were not reliable.

Good luck with your install...


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## MasterMech (Jan 17, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Don
> The reason i suggest a radiant type heater cuz it heats objects it touches rather than the air so it makes the area feel warmer while using less electricity than traditional models. GO to your local home depot and stand at the checkout .That warmth form above is coming from a radiant heater hanging from the ceiling.


 
A shop I used to work in switched from a propane fired forced air system to a propane fired radiant tube/reflector type system.  Rediculous how much warmer the shop actually felt.  Was excellent for thawing out machinery too.  Snow/ice melted off things _much_ faster than before.


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## ArsenalDon (Jan 17, 2013)

Eaglecraft said:


> Don:
> 
> Natural gas will be cheapest to run, but it requires venting and the units are not under $100.
> 
> ...


I loved natural gas when I was in the city, but now I am up in the mountains. it is electric, propane or wood.


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## lukem (Jan 17, 2013)

MasterMech said:


> A shop I used to work in switched from a propane fired forced air system to a propane fired radiant tube/reflector type system. Rediculous how much warmer the shop actually felt. Was excellent for thawing out machinery too. Snow/ice melted off things _much_ faster than before.


 
The building I spend the majority of my time in is just shy of 1M sq ft so heating the whole thing all the time to a "comfortable" temperature isn't cost effective.  It is heated with Corayvac above the main work areas.  Its kinda weird because you can be cold in one place then walk 5 feet and you are instantly warm.  Radiant heat is nice because it doesn't have a big ramp up period...but it does have downsides too.


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## ArsenalDon (Jan 17, 2013)

lukem said:


> Radiant heat is nice because it doesn't have a big ramp up period...but it does have downsides too.


And the downsides in your experience are...........


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## lukem (Jan 17, 2013)

Don Williams said:


> And the downsides in your experience are...........


 
It's not a really even heat.  If there's something between you and the heat source obstructing a clear line of sight you won't feel the heat.  This can be overcome by mounting on the ceiling (if your ceilings are high enough).  The further you get away from the heat source, the colder it feels...and too close can be too hot.  A well placed radiant heater or two can work well...just don't expect to park one in the corner and have a nice even heat like a convection type heater.


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## ArsenalDon (Jan 17, 2013)

lukem said:


> It's not a really even heat. If there's something between you and the heat source obstructing a clear line of sight you won't feel the heat. This can be overcome by mounting on the ceiling (if your ceilings are high enough). The further you get away from the heat source, the colder it feels...and too close can be too hot. A well placed radiant heater or two can work well...just don't expect to park one in the corner and have a nice even heat like a convection type heater.


9 foot cielings, but honestly as long as I get some heat in there I think it will be fine, as I said before at -1 outside it was 46 inside with no heater at all...


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## Highbeam (Jan 17, 2013)

Just idle your truck in the shop for an hour or so.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 17, 2013)

Don Williams said:


> 9 foot cielings, but honestly as long as I get some heat in there I think it will be fine, as I said before at -1 outside it was 46 inside with no heater at all...


If you have the overhead kind it will gradually warm the floor so as to warm the air above it. In this case it is nice to have the floor insulated as well so your not trying to warm the earth below, just your garage.


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## MasterMech (Jan 17, 2013)

Highbeam said:


> Just idle your truck in the shop for an hour or so.





That's for much bigger problems than no heat.


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## lukem (Jan 17, 2013)

I notice that when I park my hot truck in the garage in the evening it is about 5-10* (guessing) warmer in the garage the next morning than if I don't.


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## Highbeam (Jan 17, 2013)

Highbeam said:


> Just idle your truck in the shop for an hour or so.


 
I hope everyone realizes that I was just joking. Sheesh, sometimes when you reread your posts you think twice.


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## FanMan (Jan 17, 2013)

You have room for cars in your garage???


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## begreen (Jan 17, 2013)

Highbeam said:


> Hey man, I know your pain. I was just working in my new 30x60 uninsulated shop this weekend and the thermometer said 35 in there. I was huddled around a tank top 15000 btu propane mr heater that is about like a range top burner. Heat for your hands but that's it.
> 
> Your budget is only 100$. That will drive the solution. Go to a pawn shop or CL and acquire a used torpedo heater. Propane is better than kerosene/diesel. Remember, this is a temporary solution so don't worry about perfection. In the end, you can mount a hanging unit heater or an electric furnace or whatever but those all cost way way more than 100$.
> 
> I use a 1500 watt "milkhouse" heater with a thermostat in the RV (parked in the shop) to keep it from freezing. Those things don't make much heat. You'd need lots of watts, think 10kw like a furnace, to make a rapid temperature rise in your shop.


 

This is relative to the size. I am using one of these in my new shop that is well insulated and it works great .


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 17, 2013)

The propane torpedos are quite noisy.(And also require electricity) I use one if i have to but opt for the radiant single or double tank top Mr heaters. If i were working in one place all the time i would opt for a ceiling mounted over the work bench kind,either electric or propane.


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## Highbeam (Jan 18, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> The propane torpedos are quite noisy.(And also require electricity) I use one if i have to but opt for the radiant single or double tank top Mr heaters. If i were working in one place all the time i would opt for a ceiling mounted over the work bench kind,either electric or propane.


 
I've been shopping. The big double tank top mr heaters put out 30,000 btu. The torpedos are available up to at least 200,000 btu with most at 100,000 btu and they are not considered radiant. Due to the huge output differences these heaters are really in different leagues.


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## Swedishchef (Jan 18, 2013)

I am jumping into the game late....but if you could get some 240 wiring in there, the best option (which is more than $100 though..) is http://www.ouellet.com/residential-heating-specs-usa.aspx?i=56  They are called air forced difusers and you can get them in 10 000 watts on 240 if you want. They principle is great: they heat the alread warm air and push it downward. That makes for much less heating ( air temp at ceiling height is much warmer than ground level requiring less energy to take it up to temp). I just installed a 4K watt one in my little 16X24 garage with R14 in walls and R20 in ceiling and it heats it up great!

Andrew


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## ArsenalDon (Jan 18, 2013)

Swedishchef said:


> I am jumping into the game late....but if you could get some 240 wiring in there, the best option (which is more than $100 though..) is http://www.ouellet.com/residential-heating-specs-usa.aspx?i=56 They are called air forced difusers and you can get them in 10 000 watts on 240 if you want. They principle is great: they heat the alread warm air and push it downward. That makes for much less heating ( air temp at ceiling height is much warmer than ground level requiring less energy to take it up to temp). I just installed a 4K watt one in my little 16X24 garage with R14 in walls and R20 in ceiling and it heats it up great!
> 
> Andrew


Good thought...I will look into this option also with my electrician in the fall....for now I have decided I have to suffer a bit and go cheap....building garage and daughter getting married in Oct....no cash left


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## Swedishchef (Jan 18, 2013)

Money doesn't grow on trees and I totally understand! I wish someone would have paid for my wedding! lol

Those heaters are great. Seriously great

Andrew


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## semipro (Jan 18, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> seige101 said: ↑
> False False False. An electric space heater is an electric space heater. a $15 space heater will work just as well as a $400 eden pure heater.​Exactly THey use 1500 watts ,and produces EXACTLY the same BTUs as the wal,mart $15 blower style heater. Go radiant if electric.


 
I genuinely feel sorry for those duped by the "miracle heaters" like Edenpure...including my parents who are retired and on a fixed income.

Those that sell those things are no better than the fly-by-night "duct cleaning" and "seal your driveway" types that prey on the elderly.


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## semipro (Jan 18, 2013)

stee6043 said:


> I'm not a big fan of the ventless setup, personally. The moisture "problem" I've read a lot about is 100% a myth but the fact is that the byproducts of combustion are going right into the heated space.


I'm not sure what you mean by "100% myth" but I can report that a serous amount of condensation formed on our windows every time (and only when) I cranked up our ventless heater.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 18, 2013)

semipro said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by "100% myth" but I can report that a serous amount of condensation formed on our windows every time (and only when) I cranked up our ventless heater.


Ventless heaters will produce both moisture and carbon monoxide and other products of combustion all while using up all the oxygen in the room. They are illegal
in many areas for good reason.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 18, 2013)

semipro said:


> I genuinely feel sorry for those duped by the "miracle heaters" like Edenpure...including my parents who are retired and on a fixed income.
> Those that sell those things are no better than the fly-by-night "duct cleaning" and "seal your driveway" types that prey on the elderly.


Its not surprising that some will believe the hype, especially when some "other" heat source is providing 80-90-% of the heat and the electric is only making up the difference from say 60 to 75 degrees. Sure the light bill wont go up much,any $15 heater could do that.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 18, 2013)

semipro said:


> I genuinely feel sorry for those duped by the "miracle heaters" like Edenpure...including my parents who are retired and on a fixed income.
> Those that sell those things are no better than the fly-by-night "duct cleaning" and "seal your driveway" types that prey on the elderly.


One of my friends is a family doctor and he bought the pitch as well ,thought he was going to heat a commercial building with these things.After he spent about a grand on those miracle boxes and got his first electric bill,he wishes he would have listened to me when he asked my advice on them. Now his gas bill looks a whole lot better.


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## velvetfoot (Jan 18, 2013)

Just curious, what kind of gas?  Propane is more expensive than oil around here, and both, considering efficiencies, are approaching resistance heat.  I never thought I'd see the day.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 18, 2013)

I use all these things in my work. Im rehabbing an old apartment building right now and it currently does NOT have a heating system. I have a wood stove in one aptmt and i use portable propane tank top heaters in the other one. I also have a salamander/torpedo type propane but its loud and i dont use it much. Used to use kerosene heaters but i feel the propane is Cheaper,Cleaner burning,quieter, and smells a whole lot better. Usually i do houses so a wood stove provides all the heat i need in those cases.


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## Highbeam (Jan 18, 2013)

You've got to use this tool. I've really changed a lot of minds about elctric heat vs. the other options. People have it beat into their heads that electricicty is a more expensive way to heat when really it is often the cheapest plus it has several advantages over burning fossil fuels in your shop such as no open flame, no poison gas, no exhaust plumbing, cheap, and an endless supply already piped into the building.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/fuel_cost_comparison_calculator/


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 18, 2013)

Great calculator. About the same results as other ones. I use mostly coal at home and switch to wood from time to time,plus i use a lot of wood were i work rehabbing old houses were i have a wood stove. My wood is practically free and the coal i burn about $500-$600 a year.


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## stee6043 (Jan 18, 2013)

semipro said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by "100% myth" but I can report that a serous amount of condensation formed on our windows every time (and only when) I cranked up our ventless heater.


 
I've read countless threads on this site and others where people will claim "you'll get condensation on your tools" and "everything ends up wet" when using ventless heaters in garages.  I've experienced zero condensation anywhere but on the window.  I personally don't think condensation on a window is any indication of anything in a garage.  My father has a nice "proper" Modine unit in his garage and he gets the exact same window fogging I get.  I'd bet an electric heater would fog the windows when you "crank it up" as well.  There is a certain amount of moisture in the garage no matter what you do.  Once you start heating it with any source the windows will typically, eventually, end up being the coldest thing in the garage.  No different than condensation on your beer after you pull it out of the fridge.  And I don't blame my beer condensation on my HVAC system.


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## stee6043 (Jan 18, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Ventless heaters will produce both moisture and carbon monoxide and other products of combustion all while using up all the oxygen in the room. They are illegal
> in many areas for good reason.


 
They are illegale in California...this is true. That makes me happier to have one up here in the substantially more free state of Michigan, actually.


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## begreen (Jan 18, 2013)

Highbeam said:


> You've got to use this tool. I've really changed a lot of minds about elctric heat vs. the other options. People have it beat into their heads that electricicty is a more expensive way to heat when really it is often the cheapest plus it has several advantages over burning fossil fuels in your shop such as no open flame, no poison gas, no exhaust plumbing, cheap, and an endless supply already piped into the building.
> 
> https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/fuel_cost_comparison_calculator/


 
Agreed. It is a lot cleaner too. I get headaches pretty quickly in a building that's heated by a torpedo heater and the moisture coming off of a ventless propane heater is something you don't want in a garage. It condenses easily on the ceiling insulation and inside walls if the place is not well insulated. Sooner or later that can lead to a serious mold issue.

Instead of trying to heat the whole building, I built a shop area within the garage. I keep the shop at 50F using electric. It stops tools from rusting and is comfortable enough that I can go right into a project instead of trying to get the place warm for the first hour. It's insulated well enough that I could warm it up and ferment and age beer/wine out there too. When I have a big or dirty project I take that out into the garage after moving out the car.


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## stee6043 (Jan 18, 2013)

begreen said:


> Agreed. It is a lot cleaner too. I get headaches pretty quickly in a building that's heated by a torpedo heater and the moisture coming off of a ventless propane heater is something you don't want in a garage. It condenses easily on the ceiling insulation and inside walls if the place is not well insulated. Sooner or later that can lead to a serious mold issue.


 
I do hate to disagree with anybody having more than 10 times my number of posts...but I just don't buy the moisture issue on ventless heaters in a standard garage. And I use one nearly every other weekend in my garage.

For every cubic meter of natural gas (methane) we burn "ventless" we put just over 3lbs of water into the air through combustion. Or we say that for every 100,000 btu's of output you would get something closer to 9lbs of water. Let's call it a gallon for nice round numbers.

So for a "decent size" three stall garage of 825 square feet let's assume a nice average heat load, in the dead of winter, of 20,000 btu/hr to keep it at a cozy 75 degrees while working. In this case we'd have to be heating the garage for 5 hours to put a gallon of water into the air, approximately.

Further, let's say the above mentioned garage has an unheated relative humidity in the dead of winter of 80-85% if it holds at 55 degrees F. Dim's on this garage are 25x33 with 10' ceilings. This garage holds 8,250 cubic feet of air. In an unheated state it holds about a half gallon of water in the above referenced temp/RH. In this case, assuming 20,000 btu heat requirement, we'd be adding roughly 0.2 gallons of water each hour we run the heater. Does this represent a 40% increase in "humidity" every hour we're running the heater (.5 gallons to .7 gallons)? Not even close. At 75 degrees air holds more than twice as much water as it does at 55 degrees.

If we add 0.2 gallons but we also raise the temp to 75 degrees we end up with an increase in relative humidy of 2% or 3%. How many hours can we continue this without exceeding the water capacity of the air and we end up with "condensation all over the place"? Anecdotally I can tell you I've run mine all day long (10+ hours) more than once without having any condensation on the ceilings, walls, tools or anywhere other than my cheapo garage window. I'm really not willing to do the math required to find a real answer for "how long can you go" but I suspect there certainly is a real limit at some point. Can you realistically reach that limit in a garage that leaks air all over the place (garage doors, attic, etc)? I have no idea.

I guess you could argue that condensation is more of a concern when the garage cools after you shut off the heater. This is when the excess moisture will want to leave the air. But garages leak air, we park wet cars in them all the time, etc and so on. I don't believe ventless heaters will cause any more of a moisture issue than parking a car packed with snow in the undercarriage inside, or washing a car for that matter. I don't know many people who park their cars outside in the winter to keep the snow from melting in the garage for fear of mold on the ceiling...

My two cents only....or three cents I suppose.


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## woodgeek (Jan 18, 2013)

Highbeam said:


> You've got to use this tool. I've really changed a lot of minds about elctric heat vs. the other options. People have it beat into their heads that electricicty is a more expensive way to heat when really it is often the cheapest plus it has several advantages over burning fossil fuels in your shop such as no open flame, no poison gas, no exhaust plumbing, cheap, and an endless supply already piped into the building.
> 
> https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/fuel_cost_comparison_calculator/


 
Remember that if you are using a heat pump or minisplit, you should put in a number >100% for the eff. Actually its COP*100%. When I put in my number (225%) I find I can make a BTU cheaper than CSD wood in the stove. And I thus become a WE/evening/recreational burner.


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## Highbeam (Jan 18, 2013)

I


woodgeek said:


> Remember that if you are using a heat pump or minisplit, you should put in a number >100% for the eff. Actually its COP*100%. When I put in my number (225%) I find I can make a BTU cheaper than CSD wood in the stove. And I thus become a WE/evening/recreational burner.


Absolutely. Though the minisplits are not a good candidate for a dusty woodshop since the inside unit can get gunked up easily in that environment. In house heating though, a minisplit along with cheap electric rates can totally kill everything else.

If only there were minisplits made for heating water. I have a garage with radiant heat tubing in the slab that would love to be heated by something like a Fujitsu 15rls but they seem to spend R&D dollars on air heating and not water heating. Heck, the domestic water heaters in our homes could be replaced by this minisplit technology. It just kills me. Like small diesel engines in cars, there is technology out there that can reduce costs as well as fuel consumption but something is holding us back.


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## woodgeek (Jan 18, 2013)

Agreed.  It comes down to ROI.  For a shop used all the time (in the right clmate), a mini might make sense, for a garage you might want to heat a few hours a week, too much up front and too slow to come up to temp on demand.

Are you sure about the gunking up the coil....is cleaning the coil on a mini a DIY-able procedure??  I haven't cleaned the coil in my split HP in 4.5 years, but I keep meaning to!


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## FanMan (Jan 18, 2013)

stee6043 said:


> They are illegale in California...this is true. That makes me happier to have one up here in the substantially more free state of Michigan, actually.


 
But isn't _everything_ illegal in California, unless it's compulsory?  The state that puts warning labels on ordinary untreated lumber ("this product contains a chemical known to the State of California to cause cancer")...

Just kidding (except about the warning label, which is true)...  I looked at unvented heaters a year ago and concluded I didn't want one in my house.


Probably not a solution for the original poster, but I acquired an old oil furnace when a friend put a new one in his house (the furnace worked but the DWH coil was shot, but that didn't matter to me).  Put it in my garage, fed by a 55 gallon drum, and plumbed it to a car radiator with a fan blowing through it.  The water is mixed with antifreeze since I don't use it all the time.  Overkill to be sure, but I can go from 0°F to comfortable in a half hour. 

As I'm converting my house from oil to propane, I'll replace it with another used gas furnace I recently acquired (this one was replaced because the matching air conditioner failed, but the furnace part still worked) when the oil tank runs out.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 18, 2013)

You do get a lot of moisture from unvented propane heaters in a tight setting . My sister had to get rid of hers as the house was filling with mold from it. She switched to electric and the problem went away.


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## ArsenalDon (Jan 18, 2013)

Swedishchef said:


> I wish someone would have paid for my wedding


Tell me about it...I paid for my own 30 years ago and now for my 30th anniversary..I get to pay for my daughters!


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## Swedishchef (Jan 19, 2013)

lolol.


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## begreen (Jan 20, 2013)

Highbeam said:


> I
> 
> Absolutely. Though the minisplits are not a good candidate for a dusty woodshop since the inside unit can get gunked up easily in that environment. In house heating though, a minisplit along with cheap electric rates can totally kill everything else.
> 
> If only there were minisplits made for heating water. I have a garage with radiant heat tubing in the slab that would love to be heated by something like a Fujitsu 15rls but they seem to spend R&D dollars on air heating and not water heating. Heck, the domestic water heaters in our homes could be replaced by this minisplit technology. It just kills me. Like small diesel engines in cars, there is technology out there that can reduce costs as well as fuel consumption but something is holding us back.


 
I think there are. I was on Mitsubishi's website a few days ago and I think I saw this. http://www.esmagazine.com/articles/...xchangers-mitsubishi-electric-cooling-heating

They are very popular in Europe. I see multiple mfg. selling them there but not in the US.


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