# Who wants a Hummer?



## EatenByLimestone (Feb 9, 2020)

Hummer Electric Pickup Truck: Range, Motor & Price Options To Suit All
					

General Motors has announced that the Hummer electric pickup truck will have several motor options (single, double and tri) and that range and price will vary.




					insideevs.com


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## EatenByLimestone (Feb 9, 2020)

It even looks like a pickup!   Might even be useful!


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## johneh (Feb 9, 2020)

0 t0 60 in 3 sec and no one can hear you 
I like the looks but 1st gen I'm not so sure


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## EatenByLimestone (Feb 9, 2020)

Oh, first couple years on a new system like that and I'm sure there are bugs to work out!


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## Ashful (Feb 9, 2020)

At first glance, I really like it.  In fact, it’s first Hummer (vehicle) I do like.

Any speculation or forecast on pricing?

I wonder if we’re less than a decade out from the next Ralph Nader, complaining about the high horsepower and torque of all these new EVs.  There’s a real danger here, previously this sort of power was reserved for car enthusiasts, who are hopefully more mindful drivers.

We’re not far from every teenager being put behind the wheel of a vehicle having acceleration equivalent to an 800 hp gasser super car, if current trends continue.  I can foresee a governmental safety crack-down coming, five miles away.


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## SpaceBus (Feb 9, 2020)

I doubt this kind of vehicle will be common place. Electric car specs are also misleading. The Electric Chevy Spark has 400 lb/ft of torque, but it doesn't set any strip records. 0-60 in three seconds on this truck, but then what? It will probably drop off like most other EVs. AWD and a lot of power consistently yeilds fast launches and already exists. I would not expect this truck, or most high powered electric vehicles, to really be more of a safety issue than any of the current high powered ICE vehicles. Pretty soon 400+ HP gas powered cars will end up on bargain lots.


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## EatenByLimestone (Feb 9, 2020)

Since you can gear for torque,  I imagine more pedestrian versions will eventually be available that will still move the loads without the headlines... at reduced speed.  I think most of the EVs are direct drive?   Maybe transmissions are coming to an EV near you.


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## SpaceBus (Feb 9, 2020)

EatenByLimestone said:


> Since you can gear for torque,  I imagine more pedestrian versions will eventually be available that will still move the loads without the headlines... at reduced speed.  I think most of the EVs are direct drive?   Maybe transmissions are coming to an EV near you.


Yes, most are direct drive or have a planetary gear. Folks who DIY convert ICE cars to EV do so by retaining the transmission. Miatas are popular and there are small AC and DC motors that work well with the five speed manual transmission. Apparently torque converter automatic transmissions drain too much power with their pumps (usually driven by a small eldctric motor since EVs don't idle) and prove to be unpopular for swaps. Pretty much every automotive automatic transmission type I can think of requires lots of hydraulic pressure, so maybe a new type of transmission will emerge. I just don't see EVs of the future wasting energy on idling or maintaining transmission hydraulic pressure.


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## woodnomore (Feb 9, 2020)

Nope no thank you. I will stick to my silverado that gets 20 mpg. We don't do electric vehicles out in the country.


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## snaple4 (Feb 9, 2020)

I want one or even one of the other Electric trucks as a work vehicle. I do HVAC service work and as long as I can get through a 18 hour day in the summer and plug in at night it would save me a lot of hassle. Can’t tell you how often I forget to change the oil or, get low on gas, or have trouble pulling equipment b/c the bed is already loaded up. Sadly I am not all that hopeful that the fist gen trucks will meet my requirements.

For reference, it isn’t uncommon for me to fill up my 32+ gal f150 tank daily or every other day during the summer. Lots of starting and stopping of vehicle. Lots of moving the truck from one building to the next in the same complex...


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## ABMax24 (Feb 9, 2020)

I think they will do well, heck I'd buy one if the price was right.

The big thing that GM has going for it is the already existing network of dealerships across the continent for servicing such a vehicle.

I think electrics will catch on, Canada's largest fuel retailer Petro-Canada has started putting in electric charging stations at its service stations. You can now go coast to coast across Canada just recharging at Petro-Canada locations. If the big fuel giants are putting in service for EV's it's because even they see change is coming.


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## EatenByLimestone (Feb 9, 2020)

Gas vehicles won't be leaving my driveway anytime soon either.   

I find them interesting, and from the viewpoint of a fleet, maintenance is appealing.   Its the range and charging that are the issue.   Mostly the charging, because if they could  refuel quickly and easily range would be les of an issue.   I'm not going to have an employee plug it into their house at night, and it takes too long to charge them at a grocery store.


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## Rob711 (Feb 9, 2020)

Sooo not the hummer I was thinking. No thanks


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## Ashful (Feb 9, 2020)

EatenByLimestone said:


> Gas vehicles won't be leaving my driveway anytime soon either.
> 
> I find them interesting, and from the viewpoint of a fleet, maintenance is appealing.   Its the range and charging that are the issue.   Mostly the charging, because if they could  refuel quickly and easily range would be les of an issue.   I'm not going to have an employee plug it into their house at night, and it takes too long to charge them at a grocery store.


Maybe the range is a legit issue for your fleet, which is surprising to hear, but I guess it’s possible.  But plugging in overnight?  Why is that an issue?  Either do it at your depot, or credit your employees per kWh for plugging in at home, the same as my company credits me for miles I put on my personal vehicle.  Not exactly an insurmountable obstacle.

I wish I could fast forward 20 years, and watch someone from our generation explain to the next, how we thought it was more convenient to drive ten or fifteen minutes to a filling station, and stand in the cold by a gas pump for ten minutes every 200 miles, versus just plugging in our car at home each night.


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## EatenByLimestone (Feb 9, 2020)

It would be a greater obstacle for those who live in a city and park on the road.  Sometimes you don't even park in front of your house.


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## SpaceBus (Feb 9, 2020)

EatenByLimestone said:


> It would be a greater obstacle for those who live in a city and park on the road.  Sometimes you don't even park in front of your house.


Indeed, not everyone is a homeowner.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 9, 2020)

I like it. Not like GM to let Tesla get all the good press and generate all the excitement around trucks. (Their biggest market) without a response.
Evs are one of the few vehicles that lets you recover some of the wasted energy of stopping and starting with in town driving through braking regeneration. Not sure how much that saves as iv seen numbers from 5% to 80%.   May be just the thing for the poor City MPG numbers of trucks.


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## Ashful (Feb 10, 2020)

EatenByLimestone said:


> It would be a greater obstacle for those who live in a city and park on the road.  Sometimes you don't even park in front of your house.


Today, yes.  But I fully anticipate cities and towns to take advantage of this cash cow.  As soon as we reach critical mass of EVs, you’d better believe they’ll be installing receptacles with credit card readers on every lamp post and other existing electrical supply with sufficient capacity.  Look at the way some cities aggressively chase the apparent pennies an individual parking meter brings, there’s an economy of scale at work, there.


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## begreen (Feb 11, 2020)

Nikola announced their offering, to be shown in fall 2020 - The Badger. It touts 600 mile range via 300 mile battery range and 300 mile on a 120 kW hydrogen fuel cell. Having this whopper generator on board also has some nice jobsite benefits like a 15kW inverter. 









						This New Zero-Emission Electric Pickup Has an Insane 600-Mile Range
					

That’s 100 more miles than the Cybertruck.




					www.yahoo.com
				











						Nikola Badger
					

Nikola Motor Company’s Badger is a fully-electric and hydrogen fuel cell electric pickup truck.




					nikolamotor.com


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## SpaceBus (Feb 11, 2020)

begreen said:


> Nikola announced their offering, to be shown in fall 2020 - The Badger. It touts 600 mile range via 300 mile battery range and 300 mile on a 120 kW hydrogen fuel cell. Having this whopper generator on board also has some nice jobsite benefits like a 15kW inverter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've been reading that hydrogen is the future.


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## begreen (Feb 11, 2020)

Eventually, I think it will play a much larger role in our lives, but I suspect not without a lot of resistance from the fossil fuel industry.


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## SpaceBus (Feb 11, 2020)

begreen said:


> Eventually, I think it will play a much larger role in our lives, but I suspect not without a lot of resistance from the fossil fuel industry.


The DOE just invested some $60 mil for researching hydrogen production from PV supplied electricity. It's an exciting time to be alive. I'm hopeful for hydrogen based liquid fuels to keep the majority of the current infrastructure in place.


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## begreen (Feb 11, 2020)

Part of Nikola's plan is to get a network of hydrogen stations implemented. IMO subsidies and tax breaks should be removed from the mature fossil fuel industry and applied to hydrogen.


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## EatenByLimestone (Feb 11, 2020)

It would be kind of nice to see all subsidies removed from. All energy sources so its a true level playing field.


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## SpaceBus (Feb 11, 2020)

EatenByLimestone said:


> It would be kind of nice to see all subsidies removed from. All energy sources so its a true level playing field.


It would lead to the cheapest which would be fossil fuels which is how we got to this position anyway.


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## bholler (Feb 11, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> It would lead to the cheapest which would be fossil fuels which is how we got to this position anyway.


I don't know that they will be the cheapest after the development is done on other tech.  Especially if we stop subsidizing fossil fuels as well


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## SpaceBus (Feb 11, 2020)

bholler said:


> I don't know that they will be the cheapest after the development is done on other tech.  Especially if we stop subsidizing fossil fuels as well


Even without subsidies fossil fuels are still cheaper. Perhaps at some future point alternative or renewables will be less expensive, but early adoption is extremely expensive. Without help to disrupt the market (legislation) and heavy investment (subsidies) there is no incentive to change, in our capitalist society anyway. When profits are prioritized over environmental costs there can be no change.


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## begreen (Feb 11, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> It would lead to the cheapest which would be fossil fuels which is how we got to this position anyway.


Hydrogen fuel in CA is reported to be around $5/gal FWIW.


SpaceBus said:


> When profits are prioritized over environmental costs there can be no change.


Aye, there's the rub. The full costs of fossil fuels need to be tallied to level the playing field. That includes environmental and human health costs.


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## ABMax24 (Feb 11, 2020)

I don't think hydrogen will really take off. The energy to produce hydrogen needs to come from somewhere, at the current time natural gas produces the lion's share through steam reforming. Hydrogen can be produced from water via electrolysis but at the current moment the round trip of efficiency is far below that of a lithium ion battery. It could however be used once technology improves for long term energy storage.  Hydrogen needs to be stored either at cryogenic temperatures or at extremely high pressure to achieve a high enough energy density to be economic as a transportation fuel, something that poses huge safety issues when used for passenger cars.

I'm not saying it won't ever become popular, but electric cars seem far better to me. Plus I can generate the fuel for an electric car on my roof, a hydrogen car not so much without expensive equipment.


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## SidecarFlip (Feb 11, 2020)

I'll pass on all of them.  Not at all interested.  Cousin has a Tesla AWD SUV.  $120 grand toaster.

I see with ALL of them, no price (even a suggested price) is listed.


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## begreen (Feb 11, 2020)

Most appear to fall in the $45-85k range.


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## SidecarFlip (Feb 11, 2020)

Just a poor dirt farmer.  Too rich for my blood.  Besides I need a real pickup truck with an 8 foot bed, not a wannabe grocery getter.  A  poser like that wouldn't last a month on the farm.


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## begreen (Feb 11, 2020)

I hear you. Most of these are boy toys for wealthy weekend warriors. But you've got to start someplace. As battery tech becomes better the price will come down and choices will get better.


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## SidecarFlip (Feb 11, 2020)

Most likely but at 70, I don't have a lot of time to wait,..........................


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## begreen (Feb 12, 2020)

That's why I jumped in and got a Volt. It may be our last car, and I wanted to experience some of the pleasures of electric driving. Most of our driving is local so it has that covered pretty well.


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## SpaceBus (Feb 12, 2020)

begreen said:


> Most appear to fall in the $45-85k range.


Sounds like where most pickup trucks end up.


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## Ashful (Feb 12, 2020)

begreen said:


> Most appear to fall in the $45-85k range.


The Tesla Model X Performance is $109,000, without subsidies or Tesla financing.  You need to dig like heck to find that number, though, they really try to hide it behind a lot of ”with assumed subsidies” claims.

The “economical” Model 3 Dual Motor AWD was $65k typically optioned, in 2016.

The Model S Performance cars are all well over $100,000, before even adding home charging or typical options.  Again, good luck finding the cash price, first they hide it behind “assumed savings”, and then even if you remove that they apply undefined rebates for financing thru Tesla.

Of course Tesla is not the only game in town, but they’re the only one with a wide network of fast chargers deployed today, and the farthest toward a stabilized platform that’s at least a little bit depreciation-proofed at this point.


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## begreen (Feb 12, 2020)

This thread is about EV trucks. The Tesla Cybertruck estimates fall in this range.


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## Ashful (Feb 12, 2020)

SidecarFlip said:


> I'll pass on all of them.  Not at all interested.  Cousin has a Tesla AWD SUV.  $120 grand toaster.
> 
> I see with ALL of them, no price (even a suggested price) is listed.


We also have two Teslas in the family, and I’ve been chided for still buying gassers.  My reasons are primarily price/value and dealer convenience.  The Tesla owners have both argued that a Tesla “shouldn’t” need the same level of maintenance as my ICE’s, making the distance to the dealership a non-issue, but then both admitted to having to take them back to the dealer for bug fixes or upgrades at least 2x per year.  Meanwhile my 4 and 5 year old ICE cars have each only had to visit the dealer once for a safety recall.

The supposed maintenance argument is bogus, IMO.  Other than an oil change, which I can do in 20 minutes in my own driveway, most ICE’s don’t need a lick of maintenance outside of tires and brakes up to 120k miles.  Meanwhile, it seems most EV customers I know are visiting their dealers a few times per year for unplanned recall or upgrade issues.


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## Ashful (Feb 12, 2020)

begreen said:


> This thread is about EV trucks. The Tesla Cybertruck estimates fall in this range.


Sorry about that.  Forgot... got it crossed with the other recent EV thread.

My most recent post would be applicable to both cars and trucks, so I’ll leave that one.


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## begreen (Feb 13, 2020)

Another contender in the ring is the Lordstown.  It's planned market release is later this year. True 4WD.








						Lordstown Motors Corp. | Electric Work Vehicles | Lordstown, OH, USA
					

Lordstown Motors Corp. builds electric pickup trucks and other vehicles to revolutionize the way work gets done.




					www.lordstownmotors.com
				




And for those that want heavy duty








						This tough-as-nails $125,000 fully electric SUV will be able to go where the Tesla Model X can't
					

Bollinger Motors has unveiled its first cars: a fully electric SUV and a pickup truck, both for $125,000.




					www.businessinsider.com


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## begreen (Feb 13, 2020)

Ashful said:


> The supposed maintenance argument is bogus, IMO. Other than an oil change, which I can do in 20 minutes in my own driveway, most ICE’s don’t need a lick of maintenance outside of tires and brakes up to 120k miles. Meanwhile, it seems most EV customers I know are visiting their dealers a few times per year for unplanned recall or upgrade issues.


The first year or 36,000 miles for an ICE vehicle are usually cheap, but if one follows the normal service schedule then costs often will be higher. Of course it depends on the terrain and usage, but one can expect to replace filters (oil and air) several times. As noted, brakes don't last 120k miles on ICE cars, but they can on EVs. Many cars need a timing belt replacement during the first 100k.  Fluid changes for antifreeze, brakes and transmission are generally recommended too. And then there are the parts replacements when the mechanic tells you - while we-are-at-it, we recommend xxxxx (things like replace the water pump, belts, etc.). Spark plugs are often replaced by 70k miles. No matter how one looks at it, ICE vehicles are more complex and more expensive to maintain over a 120K/10 yr period.

For a Volvo this tallies up to about $769/yr. on average








						Volvo Repair: Service and Maintenance Cost
					

Get Volvo repair and maintenance costs, common problems, recalls, and more. Find certified Volvo mechanics near you.




					repairpal.com
				




2012 Dodge Charger - $691








						2012 Dodge Charger Repair: Service and Maintenance Cost
					

Get 2012 Dodge Charger repair and maintenance costs, common problems, recalls, and more. Find certified Dodge mechanics near you.




					repairpal.com


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## Ashful (Feb 13, 2020)

Other than the brakes, I’m just not seeing that, in my own vehicles.  ICEs and EVs consume tires at the same rate.  Oil and filters are too cheap to even discuss, and nobody actually changes coolant or brake fluid.  Most timing belts are at 120k today, often beyond, this ain’t 1990.

Brakes are the one legit maintenance item, which wear much quicker on the ICE.  That’s not enough to make up for the four extra trips a family member had to make to the closest Tesla dealer inside of 18 months, for various big fixes and updates.


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## SpaceBus (Feb 14, 2020)

Uhhh, you have to change brake fluid in everything. Brake fluid is hygroscopic and will build up water over time, like a few percent every year. As a result this lowers the average boiling point for the brake fluid and will result in brake failure, rust, or other damage if not changed every few years.


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## SidecarFlip (Feb 14, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> I've been reading that hydrogen is the future.



Just ask the owners of the Hindenburg........


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## SidecarFlip (Feb 14, 2020)

Ashful said:


> Other than the brakes, I’m just not seeing that, in my own vehicles.  ICEs and EVs consume tires at the same rate.  Oil and filters are too cheap to even discuss, and *nobody actually changes coolant or brake fluid.*  Most timing belts are at 120k today, often beyond, this ain’t 1990.
> 
> Brakes are the one legit maintenance item, which wear much quicker on the ICE.  That’s not enough to make up for the four extra trips a family member had to make to the closest Tesla dealer inside of 18 months, for various big fixes and updates.



I do.  Coolant, even if extended life is only good for 5 years and I keep my vehicles a lot longer than that and brake fluid, unless you live in the desert, needs to be changed (flushed out) every couple years because it absorbs moisture.  Don't Tesla use a glycol based coolant to cool the battery pack?  It needs to be renewed too.


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## SidecarFlip (Feb 14, 2020)

On the humor side, I'd love to have a 'hummer'.  Problem is, after 36 years of martial bliss, a 'hummer' is only a dream.....


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## ABMax24 (Feb 14, 2020)

This looks interesting...









						BOLLINGER B2 VS CANOO
					

The Only Class 3 Commercial Electric Trucks on the Planet.




					bollingermotors.com


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## SidecarFlip (Feb 14, 2020)

Could be another rock too.....


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## Ashful (Feb 15, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> Uhhh, you have to change brake fluid in everything. Brake fluid is hygroscopic and will build up water over time, like a few percent every year. As a result this lowers the average boiling point for the brake fluid and will result in brake failure, rust, or other damage if not changed every few years.


Agreed.  But ask your neighbors and co-workers when they last changed their brake fluid, and 99.9% of them will just return a blank stare.  It’s not a point of contention in this debate though, the same people who do/don’t change their brake fluid in an ICE will be the same people who do/don’t change their brake fluid in an EV.  So, it is not a point of comparison.  

Of course, if we were to debate it, I’d argue the hot engine compartment of an ICE may delay the water infiltration issue, beyond that of an EV.


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## SidecarFlip (Feb 15, 2020)

Or check the air in the tires regularly (why there are TP monitors now and an idiot light), because the idiot behind the wheel never check the TP....

Said before that living in a plug and play society might work for your computer bit it don't work for anything mechanical (solid fuel stoves included) and certainly not a vehicle because an EV or an ICE powered vehicle, bottom line is they are all mechanical....

Not plug and play by a long shot.

I rest my case...lol


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## MTASH (Feb 15, 2020)

Ashful said:


> Other than the brakes, I’m just not seeing that, in my own vehicles.  ICEs and EVs consume tires at the same rate.  Oil and filters are too cheap to even discuss, and nobody actually changes coolant or brake fluid.  Most timing belts are at 120k today, often beyond, this ain’t 1990.
> 
> Brakes are the one legit maintenance item, which wear much quicker on the ICE.  That’s not enough to make up for the four extra trips a family member had to make to the closest Tesla dealer inside of 18 months, for various big fixes and updates.



Me either.  If folks are truly spending $600-700 or more on average annual maintenance, they should consider switching to a more reliable brand of vehicle.  Our '12 Focus has averaged $150/year (excluding tires).  This is for 21 oil changes, some air filters, a battery, one set of plugs, and coolant flush. I've stuck to buying Fords and Toyotas over the years and this has held true. There are good arguments for electric vehicles but annual maintenance is a red herring IMO.

I don't totally agree with the brakes argument either.  We have 105,000 miles on our car and I have never touched the brakes, and won't need to if we trade it in the next couple of years.  In more rural parts of the country, one can easily get 100K+ on a set of brakes if they don't drive like a maniac.


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## SidecarFlip (Feb 15, 2020)

This fall, I checked the brakes on my 14 Focus and they are barely worn but then I have a 5 speed stick so I use my engine braking to slow down and I drive my age (70) as well.  I average 40 mpg too.  I still have the original tires at 55K but I'll replace them this spring, getting a bit worn but still serviceable.  Don't care what you drive, if you drive like a fool, you'll be replacing brakes, tires and suspension parts.  I'd say your annual maintenance cost is a bit higher than mine because I do everything myself (including tires).

Plenty of power for my old butt.

I paid 11 grand for mine off lease with 24K on the meter and slapped on the extended Ford factory warranty to be safe because of all the electronic gizmo's.


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## begreen (Feb 15, 2020)

MTASH said:


> In more rural parts of the country, one can easily get 100K+ on a set of brakes if they don't drive like a maniac.


It really depends on how the car is driven and location. Brakes wear faster if one lives in hilly or mountainous terrain. Also not true if one's daily route includes a lot of stop and go driving.


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## SidecarFlip (Feb 15, 2020)

I'd say that all depends on one, the driver and two the transmission.  I engine brake and downshift all the time and there is no 'push' from an automatic transmission in my car.  it has a clutch, but then, today, people don't know how to drive anything but a PRNDL gear selector....


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## Ashful (Feb 16, 2020)

SidecarFlip said:


> ...but then, today, people don't know how to drive anything but a PRNDL gear selector....


Oh, aren’t you holier than thou?  I owned nothing but manual transmission for 25 years, until 2016, and all but one mechanic, valet, and car wash attendant who’ve ever hopped into my car to take the wheel have seemed to know how to drive manual, just fine.  I’d be surprised if most over age 30 haven’t owned at least one manual trans car in their past, and that makes up roughly 75% of the driving population.

Now that the vehicles I want are no longer available in manual, I’ve been forced over to auto.  I can definitely see why brake wear is an issue with the auto trans, I almost had to retrain myself on stopping, it takes substantially more brake pedal pressure to stop a car without the aid of manual transmission, and a clutch to disconnect it as the car comes to a complete stop.  That doesn’t seem to be unique to just one vehicle, I have bought three new auto trans vehicles in the last four years, we presently have three autos and one manual.


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## SidecarFlip (Feb 16, 2020)

In as much as you appear to have gotten up on the wrong side of the bed with your opening comment.  Yes, it's getting harder to find a standard transmission in a vehicle and conversely, young people today have no idea how to drive one as evidenced by the Commercial Drivers License rule change where now you must have a special endorsement on your CDL that shows you are proficient in operating a standard transmission.

No endorsement means you are only qualified to operate an automatic or servo clutch Clas 6-8 truck.

With the younger set today, if it's not PRNDL, they haven't a clue.  In fact, don't use a 'Valet' parking service anywhere.  The 'Valet's' don't have a clue how to drive a stick shift.


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## SpaceBus (Feb 16, 2020)

Rural areas will have more drivers familiar with manual, at least this is my experience. Most rural kids operate dirt bikes, ATVs, and other vehicles that have manual transmissions on a more regular basis than folks in cities and suburbs. In some cities you don't need to use a car at all. My wife didn't get her driver's license until she was 20, but most rural kids get them at 15 or 16. Rural areas often lack public transportation or money for newer cars, so old stuff tends to stay running longer. 

Anyway, this is off topic, especially since everything in the future will most likely not have transmissions at all.


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## SidecarFlip (Feb 16, 2020)

Not in my lifetime.


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## ABMax24 (Feb 16, 2020)

I think the ICE vs Electric topic will turn out the same as the steam locomotive vs diesel electric locomotive era.

There was huge push back from the engineers that said diesel would never replace steam, and in the first years they were right. The diesels were unreliable and had lower power outputs than the steam engines of the time, and it was often seen that the steam engines towed the diesels back to the repair yard. Eventually as time went on the diesels become more powerful and reliable. To the point that the diesels were pulling the steam engines back to the maintenance yard. The diesels took over as the workhorses on the freight routes and the steam engines eventually became forgotten.

The part that makes me sad about this is one day kids won't know what a V8 sounds like. Or what a turbocharger or supercharger was designed and used for.


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## SpaceBus (Feb 16, 2020)

As is the way with everything. Automobiles put carriage manufacturers out of business.


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## Ashful (Feb 16, 2020)

ABMax24 said:


> The part that makes me sad about this is one day kids won't know what a V8 sounds like. Or what a turbocharger or supercharger was designed and used for.


Agreed.  But at least the kids have Youtube.  Maybe they’ll assume all ICEs sounded this sinister.





SpaceBus said:


> As is the way with everything. Automobiles put carriage manufacturers out of business.


... and most of what I know about caring for horses probably came from movies.


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## ABMax24 (Feb 16, 2020)

Ashful said:


> Agreed.  But at least the kids have Youtube.  Maybe they’ll assume all ICEs sounded this sinister.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I think this topic deserves it's own thread. I'll start one...


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## MTASH (Feb 18, 2020)

begreen said:


> It really depends on how the car is driven and location. Brakes wear faster if one lives in hilly or mountainous terrain. Also not true if one's daily route includes a lot of stop and go driving.



As I said, rural without a lot of stop and go helps. I do live in mountainous terrain as I commute from 5500' to 3700' and back every day.

It does really have a lot to do with driving habits.


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## semipro (Feb 18, 2020)

As a former auto mechanic and someone who still does their own repairs, I'm really enjoying our Nissan Leaf commuter.  It requires way less of the types of maintenance that I least liked doing -- oil changes, brakes, exhaust.  
I see my time as the biggest benefactor -- less shopping for parts, doing the repairs, and disposing of the oil and old parts (responsibly).  
Time spent at the filling station seems to be about the same overall as what I spend connecting to the charger where I work which literally takes about 10 sec.


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## bholler (Feb 18, 2020)

MTASH said:


> Me either.  If folks are truly spending $600-700 or more on average annual maintenance, they should consider switching to a more reliable brand of vehicle.  Our '12 Focus has averaged $150/year (excluding tires).  This is for 21 oil changes, some air filters, a battery, one set of plugs, and coolant flush. I've stuck to buying Fords and Toyotas over the years and this has held true. There are good arguments for electric vehicles but annual maintenance is a red herring IMO.
> 
> I don't totally agree with the brakes argument either.  We have 105,000 miles on our car and I have never touched the brakes, and won't need to if we trade it in the next couple of years.  In more rural parts of the country, one can easily get 100K+ on a set of brakes if they don't drive like a maniac.


Maybe you can in Montana.  But not here.  Our work truck get new pads about every 20000 miles.  Personal cars probably 30 or so.  Mountains are hard on brakes.  And transmissions


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## bholler (Feb 18, 2020)

SidecarFlip said:


> In as much as you appear to have gotten up on the wrong side of the bed with your opening comment.  Yes, it's getting harder to find a standard transmission in a vehicle and conversely, young people today have no idea how to drive one as evidenced by the Commercial Drivers License rule change where now you must have a special endorsement on your CDL that shows you are proficient in operating a standard transmission.
> 
> No endorsement means you are only qualified to operate an automatic or servo clutch Clas 6-8 truck.
> 
> With the younger set today, if it's not PRNDL, they haven't a clue.  In fact, don't use a 'Valet' parking service anywhere.  The 'Valet's' don't have a clue how to drive a stick shift.


My 10 yr old can already drive a stick


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## Ashful (Feb 18, 2020)

bholler said:


> My 10 yr old can already drive a stick


I am a failure as a parent.


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## bholler (Feb 18, 2020)

Ashful said:


> I am a failure as a parent.


I do have a parking lot at my house so it's easy.  She has also done brake stands and a donut in the bronco


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## MTASH (Feb 18, 2020)

bholler said:


> Maybe you can in Montana.  But not here.  Our work truck get new pads about every 20000 miles.  Personal cars probably 30 or so.  Mountains are hard on brakes.  And transmissions



 I do live in the mountains, a few miles from the Continental Divide actually. Our work trucks go 100k+ but see a lot of highway miles. Assume you live in a very urban environment?


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## bholler (Feb 18, 2020)

MTASH said:


> I do live in the mountains, a few miles from the Continental Divide actually. Our work trucks go 100k+ but see a lot of highway miles. Assume you live in a very urban environment?


Not urban at all the middle of the Appalachian mountains in Central PA.  We see very few highway miles mostly rural roads.  We are lucky to get 100k put of a transmission.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Feb 19, 2020)

Ashful said:


> Maybe the range is a legit issue for your fleet, which is surprising to hear, but I guess it’s possible.  But plugging in overnight?  Why is that an issue?  Either do it at your depot, or credit your employees per kWh for plugging in at home, the same as my company credits me for miles I put on my personal vehicle.  Not exactly an insurmountable obstacle.
> 
> I wish I could fast forward 20 years, and watch someone from our generation explain to the next, how we thought it was more convenient to drive ten or fifteen minutes to a filling station, and stand in the cold by a gas pump for ten minutes every 200 miles, versus just plugging in our car at home each night.


In 20 years, only us luddites will still be plugging our cars in.  There will just be a place to park that charges either by robotics, or wirelessly.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Feb 19, 2020)

begreen said:


> Hydrogen fuel in CA is reported to be around $5/gal FWIW.
> 
> Aye, there's the rub. The full costs of fossil fuels need to be tallied to level the playing field. That includes environmental and human health costs.


What about the costs of the military to police the middle East?

When will we finally figure out that making crude oil worthless (other than as a low value chemical feedstock that we can supply ourselves)  will completely disable the terrorists from the middle East?   That's another enormous cost that is rarely accounted for.


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## begreen (Feb 19, 2020)

The IMF places the cost of US fossil fuel subsidies at $649 Billion a year. That's well over 10 times what the Fed spends on education. I can agree with the Just Say No to Subsidies crowd. Drop the fossil fuel industry bennies and level the playing field. Renewables would kick butt then.


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## EatenByLimestone (Mar 5, 2020)

Same platform as hummer:









						Cadillac Electric SUV Confirmed: 400-Mile Range, 200-kWh Battery
					

The electric Escalade-sized SUV will ride on the same truck platform as the Hummer electric pickup truck.




					www.yahoo.com


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## Ashful (Mar 5, 2020)

EatenByLimestone said:


> Same platform as hummer:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I’m glad to finally see some EV’s in a class I’d actually consider.  Unfortunately, a year or two too late for me, I just bought a 3-row SUV that should carry us thru 2030.  But it will be interesting to watch this development from the passenger seat.


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