# Problems with a Tarm Pellet boiler



## sat1963 (Feb 19, 2009)

My neighbor has a Tarm Pellet boiler installed last year and has had significant problems with the system - back burns, fire suppression system firing without reason and ruining his bin of pellets.  The firm from central maine who installed the unit along with solar tubes has been out several times without success.  Has anyone had similar experiences with the Tarm unit? Any advice.. We use a Harmon wood/coal boiler and enjoy the simplicity and heat.  Thanks for your thoughts.


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## whippingwater (Feb 20, 2009)

The only time I had a burn back was when some pellets got up behind the plate that holds the hopper door open while I filled it, which broke the seal on the hopper. I had also knocked in a bunch of fines that were on the sides of the auger channel. That was the only issue I had. I use the factory recommended settings for auger and air and operate in auto 100-30%. Also have a barometric damper installed with a manometer to monitor draft. Only thing I could recommend is checking all the gaskets on the hopper. If there is a bad seal, that would allow a burn back.


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## Westchoper (Feb 20, 2009)

We have a 2.5 MH that we installed last summer.  We have had one unexplained burn back about 2 weeks ago that I believe was related to the amount of fines that built up in the channel which holds the auger.  The lower third of the auger channel was packed with saw dust and I believe as the hopper got down to the last 25% the fire burned back in the saw dust.  I called Tarm the next day and the tech support said the unit could burn back with just the air left in the mostly empty hopper.  We have the oversized hopper on our unit which has a flat floor and a large portion of the pellets will stay on the sides of the hopper and not slide into the auger channel.  Our hopper seal was tight so now my insurance policy is to make sure the hopper stays at least 50% full at all times. cleaning and resetting back to operational took a good 4 hours so I don't want to do that very often.

We have burned 3 types of pellets this year (7.1 tons burned so far) and next year I will be much more selective with my pellet purchases.  The Tarm dealer said the pellets would not matter much but I have good data showing big differences in ash, clinker formation, saw dust and lbs per HDD.  I think fines and clinkers are the biggest concerns for this unit. 

I think the unit is much more worry free if it idles as little as possible.  I set our unit to run at 51K as MID High and a ~65K BTU/Hr 3/4 high setting to try and keep it running longer to minimize idle time.  Tested efficiency has been 84-85% with Testo flue gas analyzer which I am very pleased with.  It's not perfect but for our house this has allowed us to stop burning oil and the house is warmer than last year when we were constantly turning down the thermostats to cut consumption.


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## taxidermist (Feb 20, 2009)

My friend has one and he switched from corn to pellets and had the samething happen and he slowed down his blower speed and the problem went away.


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Feb 22, 2009)

The most likely cause of a burnback with that design, in my experience, is an oversized boiler.

Do an accurate heat loss analysis on the house (or have one done), and compare that to the boiler size.

Joe


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## whippingwater (Feb 23, 2009)

BrownianHeatingTech said:
			
		

> The most likely cause of a burnback with that design, in my experience, is an oversized boiler.
> 
> Do an accurate heat loss analysis on the house (or have one done), and compare that to the boiler size.
> 
> Joe



Why would an oversized boiler cause a burn back? The output is fully adjustable and a boiler is sized for a worse case scenario so 100% is not necessary with any appliance all the time. My heat loss calc just exceeded the output of a 2.5 so I should have gotten an undersized appliance? The only burnback I've had was when some pellets were breaking the seal of the hopper. If the appliance is idling maybe someone has the auger time for idle set too long resulting in a burn back. I'd check the gasket on the hopper door, side access panels and auger motor for leaks.


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Feb 23, 2009)

whippingwater said:
			
		

> BrownianHeatingTech said:
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If the unit is oversized, it will idle a lot (since there is nowhere for the heat to go), allowing opportunity for a burn-back.

Joe


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## whippingwater (Feb 23, 2009)

BrownianHeatingTech said:
			
		

> whippingwater said:
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Yes idling provides the opportunity for burnback, but it is not a cause. If that were the case even a properly sized boiler would be problematic on warmer days.


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Feb 23, 2009)

whippingwater said:
			
		

> Yes idling provides the opportunity for burnback, but it is not a cause. If that were the case even a properly sized boiler would be problematic on warmer days.



The more oversized the boiler is, the more it idles.

Joe


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## Sting (Feb 23, 2009)

Good Morning WW

Isn't it nice to have a salesman's ability for double speak?  Your always right - even when you ignore the question parameters!

I am SO Jealous that I cannot twist facts like Jo can!  Or should I be?

JO == Pal -- Buddy --- Let me try to help

WhippingWater asked: Why a 4.0 would be over sized to burn back, when its advanced feed controls can modulate its fuel input to load demand?

Certainly when fuel is reduced, the heat exchanger then becomes over sized - but how is the feed system over sized then when a fine appliance like this matches combustion air to available fuel rates?

Or are you simply blowing smoke again to raise your post count?


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## whippingwater (Feb 23, 2009)

Morning Sting

I give up. I'm not a "heating professional" just a dumb truck driver and part time net builder. I will retreat to the comfort of my shop and hopefully someone will help the person who started the thread with an actual CAUSE for the burn back so they can correct it.


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Feb 23, 2009)

Sting said:
			
		

> WhippingWater asked: Why a 4.0 would be over sized to burn back, when its advanced feed controls can modulate its fuel input to load demand?
> 
> Certainly when fuel is reduced, the heat exchanger then becomes over sized - but how is the feed system over sized then when a fine appliance like this matches combustion air to available fuel rates?



Because it can't modulate down to 0%, Sting.  The minimum output of a 4.0 is a hair under 41kbtuh.

So, when it is running at its minimum, but it is oversized, there may be a large percentage of the heating season when its minimum firing rate exceeds the heat load of the structure.

For example, if the heat load of the structure is 90kbtuh, that only occurs on the absolute coldest day of the year.  And probably never occurs, since most heat load calculations include a substantial "safety factor."  Even if 90kbtuh were accurate, a typical structure will see an average load that is half the peak load (approximately).  So the average load for that structure would be 45kbtuh, which is barely above the minimum firing rate of the 4.0 boiler.  At least a third of the heating season, and probably more than half of it, will see the boiler running at minimum, and still being oversized.

Now, when the boiler is running at minimum, there are two factors that come into play.  First is the fuel flow rate, which is a bit above the level needed to prevent a burn-back.  The other is the water temperature.  When the water hits the high limit, the feed auger must shut down, in order to prevent the water from going over-temp.  With no flow of fuel through the auger, the fire can start to burn back up the pile in the burner and work its way back into the auger, triggering the fire-suppression system and making a mess.

Joe


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## whippingwater (Feb 23, 2009)

Again Joe you have not provided a cause. You described the operation and if the idle auger times and the hopper is sealed there should be no burn back with the exception as stated by a previous poster of an excess amount of fines.


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Feb 23, 2009)

whippingwater said:
			
		

> Again Joe you have not provided a cause. You described the operation and if the idle auger times and the hopper is sealed there should be no burn back with the exception as stated by a previous poster of an excess amount of fines.



There's nothing stopping the fire from burning back into the auger, other than the feed rate being above the burn-back rate.  There is sufficient oxygen present for that to happen, even if the hopper is sealed perfectly.  The sealing reduces the burn-back rate, so that it doesn't exceed the feed rate... unless the feed rate is limited by the boiler running at idle too much.

Joe


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## whippingwater (Feb 23, 2009)

BrownianHeatingTech said:
			
		

> whippingwater said:
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So as long as the auger IDLE setting is correct and the hopper is sealed there will be no burn back. It has nothing to do with boiler size as you stated and confirmed in your last post. The feed rate cannot be limited too much by idling because the feed rate is adjustable for idle to maintain a fire. If there is are burnbacks because of idle simply increase the auger intervals for idle.


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Feb 23, 2009)

whippingwater said:
			
		

> So as long as the auger IDLE setting is correct and the hopper is sealed there will be no burn back. It has nothing to do with boiler size as you stated and confirmed in your last post. The feed rate cannot be limited too much by idling because the feed rate is adjustable for idle to maintain a fire. If there is are burnbacks because of idle simply increase the auger intervals for idle.



I apologize if I'm not explaining this well, but that's simply not correct.

Anyone who likes to can feel free to call BioHeat and confirm what I'm saying here.

This issue (proper sizing to avoid burn-backs) was the very first thing that they addressed when I initially met with them to discuss adding the pellet boilers to my offerings.  Sizing is critical with these units, and oversized units will run the risk of burn-backs.

Joe


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## Sting (Feb 24, 2009)

And the salesman dances rather than answer the direct question


AGAIN!


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Feb 24, 2009)

Sting said:
			
		

> And the salesman dances rather than answer the direct question



The question was answered.

I _am_ curious why, in your mind, a "salesman" would tell someone to buy a smaller, less expensive product, though...

I mean, if I were selling a system with a MH boiler, I could make _substantially_ more by selling someone an oversized 4.0, instead of a properly-sized 2.5 - why, pray tell, would I be telling folks to buy the less expensive boiler?

Joe


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## Westchoper (Feb 24, 2009)

Sting,

I think Joe answered this correctly.  The point is that if the boiler idles for an extended period with no demand for heat then the rate of burn back towards the hopper can be greater than the rate the new fuel is being pushed forward into the burning chamber.  Eventually if the boiler stays in idle mode the fire will work its way back to the fire suppression sensor setting off the flood to stop the burn back.  In my case I thought is was caused by the fines but it also would happen with just pellets.  Tarm told me that there is enough O2 in the hopper to allow the fire to burn with no air leak.  

Back on Topic:

One other things should be checked on the unit for which this thread was started.  How is the dump zone configured for excess heat? In my case the dealer gave us a Tekmar 152 for controler of the dump zone and this is programable to call for heat once unit reaches idle temp with or without a delay.  It might be useful to know if this unit has this installed or how the overheat is being controlled.  I like what we have but I think it would be better if it had 1 or 2 more set points so we could have a longer open time with a larger delay (8+ minutes) with a 25+ differential to go with the short 10 degree differential with no delay.  The longer open cycle delay would suck out more BTU's and cause the Tarm to ramp up to at least the 30% level for a few minutes to advance more fuel to prevent the burn back.  The way ours is right now the boiler releases short bursts of heat into the overheat loop but not enough to force it into the 30% mode.  I think you need both to accomplish the over heat protection and a regular demand for enough heat to start the 30% mode with some frequency like every 20-30 minutes.  

The learning curve running for this boiler has been steep but it will be worth it once it is set up.  I think back to the first thought of filling it and forgetting about it as it will auto run. That would be great but I think even the folks with the new MES PB's are finding that some user interface is required.  I believe the daily maintenance is less than a stick wood boiler and that is what I was really after.


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## Sting (Feb 24, 2009)

I have a different view -- but then I usually do 

Whippingwater asked



			
				whippingwater said:
			
		

> Why would an oversized boiler cause a burn back? The output is fully adjustable and a boiler is sized for a worse case scenario so 100% is not necessary with any appliance all the time.



And Jo responded that a smaller boiler is necessary

?????????????


Ahemmmmmm -- Excuse me but how was the direct question answered by our expert? - he simply injected -- once again - his opinion - not the reason that a correctly controlled 4.0 should burn back! 
Or did I miss the fact that a 4.0 cannot be correctly controlled? 
Its a poor design?  
or - Should Any load that is correctly sized and operated, in the dead of winter operating with a 4.0 -- should that install  or any 4.0 be immediately shut down and the load returned to a traditional fueled boiler once the weather moderates above a 30 point degree day? - Because its too large a boiler and now incorrectly sized for warmer days of operation ??????

Double speak is not an answer! Its what you do to get elected or get the sale and install. Buyer Beware! Boilers always run better when correctly sized -- I do not question that -- I would like to know why a fine product like the 4.0 might not be controlled - or trusted,  to operate correctly in the shoulder months of use?

Or anytime -- as you point out this thread was started a few days ago

It was still cold

Heck its single digests tonight again


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## whippingwater (Feb 24, 2009)

The auger interval for idle is fully adjustable from 1-60 minutes with 30 minutes the recommended setting. So, if the pellets are burning back at idle why can't the interval be reduced to say 25 minutes and push the pellets into the burn chamber sooner? This has been my contention all along, that the burnback can be controlled. This could result in some overheating  at idle but I doubt it would be significant. Also the boiler will not operate unless the door is tightly closed engaging the micro switch safety switch.This feature is also to prevent burn back. The only burnback I've had was when I pushed a BUNCH of fines into the auger chamber and some pellets were under the hopper door gasket breaking the seal. Just because the appliance is at idle doesn't mean it WILL burnback. If that were the case , as Sting states, all these boilers would have a problem in the warmer times. 

This boiler is the safest, most trouble free, easily controlled and convenient way I've burnt wood in my life, which is what we've always done. Joe has given the impression that these boilers have a design flaw that will result in a burn back simply because the appliance is at idle. THIS IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE. I'll agree with him that an oversized appliance will idle more and provide the OPPORTUNITY for a burn back, but, it is not the CAUSE. His opening statement was "in his experience" then when questioned he said it was how he understood what Tarm said. This is my experience with my boiler. They are one of the finest solid fuel burning appliances available in the USA. And I'm not a salesman.


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Feb 24, 2009)

Sting said:
			
		

> I have a different view -- but then I usually do



Apparently, someone else was able to understand what I was posting, so you may want to consider the possibility that you just don't have the knowledge or desire to understand the answer.



			
				Sting said:
			
		

> Or did I miss the fact that a 4.0 cannot be correctly controlled?
> Its a poor design?



It can be correctly controlled.  Down to 30% modulation.  It does not modulate down to 0%, like a mod-con gas boiler, or the like.

The design is not "perfect" (no boiler is), but it's pretty darn good, as long as it is sized and installed correctly.



			
				Sting said:
			
		

> Its what you do to get elected or get the sale and install.



You still haven't told me why someone who's just looking to make sales, would tell folks to buy the smaller, less expensive boiler.  Hmmm...?



			
				whippingwater said:
			
		

> This boiler is the safest, most trouble free, easily controlled and convenient way I've burnt wood in my life, which is what we've always done. Joe has given the impression that these boilers have a design flaw that will result in a burn back simply because the appliance is at idle. THIS IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE. I'll agree with him that an oversized appliance will idle more and provide the OPPORTUNITY for a burn back, but, it is not the CAUSE. His opening statement was "in his experience" then when questioned he said it was how he understood what Tarm said. This is my experience with my boiler. They are one of the finest solid fuel burning appliances available in the USA. And I'm not a salesman.



There is no design flaw.  It's a fine boiler, and I know many folks who have been running them happily for years.  If the boiler is sized, maintained, and installed correctly, there should never be a burn-back, other than in the case of an extended power failure.  In my experience, and as confirmed by the folks who build the things, the most likely cause of a burn-back (and, particularly, multiple burn-backs) is an oversized boiler.  As I've said, anyone should feel free to call BioHeat and ask in that regard.

The "flaw" that results in that type of burn-back is an improper choice of boiler for a given heat load.  Which is no fault of the boiler.

Joe


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## Westchoper (Feb 24, 2009)

I'm not a salesman for these boilers either but I would like to know what is going on with the boiler in question with this thread.  The folks at BioHeat were pretty attentive to my needs when I was doing the setup so I look froward to hearing what the solution is for this situation.  I will make changes to our setup come spring when I shut it down for the spring / summer so next fall it is in place for a second successful season.  I want any prospective Tarm MH owner to know I agree this is a great way to free yourselves from the fossil fuel world and in our case support local industry with an abundant renewable natural resource for the fuel we consume.


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Feb 24, 2009)

Westchoper said:
			
		

> I'm not a salesman for these boilers either but I would like to know what is going on with the boiler in question with this thread.



Indeed.  Hopefully Sting hasn't scared the poster away, and we can get some real answers for someone who has a real problem, and needs help.

Joe


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## jim_n_nh (Feb 24, 2009)

Sting seems to have his own agenda. Maybe he is selling a "fix". People have been kind to offer their expertise and should be treated in a polite way or their expertise will not be shared in the future.

You don't have to agree but ...


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## Sting (Feb 24, 2009)

Yes I have an agenda

I am interested in a lucid answer to the burn back potential in a 4.0

What has this "expert" Jo offered -- buy a smaller boiler

What has his justification been - that he is looking out for the consumer - that he knows what it best - and I stayed at a Holiday Inn one night!

Bla  Bla Bla

A boiler must be able to operate under moderate  - light  - and the full load it was sized for, with some confidence.

The advice to buy an under sized boiler - even if we reason that the boiler should be correctly sized - does not address the burn back if the boiler is to be run all season and it will then need to idle for some periods -- the fuel input of that idle in a 4.o can be - (as noted by Wippingwater)cut back significantly to configure idle fire, and maintain at a very low fire. This fuel feed should keep the boiler running, and the feed system should stay clear and safe -- 

If the 4.0 is not capable of maintaining  fire in low load conditions I submit it must come off line - just like a similar smaller model Tarm would need to.

As I stated -- the "expert" advice to buy a smaller boiler will not hold water and YOU Jo are the one polluting this thread - All I am simply looking for, is a halt to a salesman's line of BS


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Feb 27, 2009)

Sting said:
			
		

> Yes I have an agenda



Which seems to be that you are all kinds of upset that I wouldn't tell you that your boiler was defective, like you wanted me to, but instead truthfully examined the situation and determined that your installation was causing the problems you described.

That, and providing comic relief for myself and several manufacturers who find your threads quite amusing...



			
				Sting said:
			
		

> A boiler must be able to operate under moderate  - light  - and the full load it was sized for, with some confidence.



And if it is sized for far greater load than the structure has?



			
				Sting said:
			
		

> If the 4.0 is not capable of maintaining  fire in low load conditions I submit it must come off line - just like a similar smaller model Tarm would need to.



Indeed it must.  If it is improperly sized.  If it is sized correctly, it should be able to operate for the whole heating season.



			
				Sting said:
			
		

> As I stated -- the "expert" advice to buy a smaller boiler will not hold water and YOU Jo are the one polluting this thread - All I am simply looking for, is a halt to a salesman's line of BS



You've been asked several times, now.  What _am_ I selling?  The individuals in question are nowhere near where I work, so I'm not planning to sell them boilers.  Putting information out on the 'net that future customers of mine might find, encouraging folks to buy smaller, less expensive boilers certainly doesn't seem like it would fit with your theory very well.

As I've said several times, anyone who likes to is free to call BioHeat, and they will happily confirm what I've posted here.  Sizing is critical with these boilers, and oversizing is the top cause of burn-backs.

Joe


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Feb 27, 2009)

jim_n_nh said:
			
		

> Sting seems to have his own agenda. Maybe he is selling a "fix". People have been kind to offer their expertise and should be treated in a polite way or their expertise will not be shared in the future.



Don't worry about that.  Sting's antics won't dissuade me from offering help/advice to folks who ask.  I could make two or three times what I do, if I went back into engineering, professionally.  I do "applied engineering" because I love what I do, and can actually make a living doing something I love.  I help others because many others have helped me, in the past, so I believe that I should "pay it forward," and because I believe that we need to move to sustainable energy sources, and I want that to happen, so helping bring biomass to the mainstream by fixing problems and making it accessible to as many folks as possible is critical to that goal.

Joe


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## Sting (Feb 27, 2009)

Only took three days to workup another side step of my question: How to make a 4.o operate in warm months?

Oh -- I missed it again didn't I  -- Buy a smaller boiler - I.E> one that will not carry the load in the winter but will in the spring and fall

So now I am saving money by having to buy/install/operate two small pellet boilers rather than burning a correctly sized 4.0 ????

Good job jo

And rest assured,  I am Glad you are amused as I debunk your load-- I too have pm's from others amused by your propensity to prevaricate and BS like you knew what was what! Keep it up -- I am sure it will snag a few more sales and shills.  Oh, and on a side note - you weren't even close with your past hypothesis. Baby Boiler it working just fine this season  The appliance is just old and I was thinking of stepping up to a Baxi -- if your involved - Ill need to revisit that desire. 

Kind Regards Pal
Sting


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Feb 27, 2009)

Sting said:
			
		

> Only took three days to workup another side step of my question: How to make a 4.o operate in warm months?



Some of us work for a living, Sting.



			
				Sting said:
			
		

> Oh -- I missed it again didn't I  -- Buy a smaller boiler - I.E> one that will not carry the load in the winter but will in the spring and fall



No, buy a correctly-sized boiler, but err on the small side.  One that might have to rely on backup for a week or two during the dead of winter.



			
				Sting said:
			
		

> So now I am saving money by having to buy/install/operate two small pellet boilers rather than burning a correctly sized 4.0 ????



If a 4.0 is correctly sized, go for it.  But that's not what was described.  What was described was a dramatically-oversized 4.0.



			
				Sting said:
			
		

> And rest assured,  I am Glad you are amused as I debunk your load-- I too have pm's from others amused by your propensity to prevaricate and BS like you knew what was what!



PM's from the anonymous folks on the Internet, versus discussions with the actual manufacturers/importers/resellers of these various products.  Hmm... who knows more about what is and isn't correct?



			
				Sting said:
			
		

> Oh, and on a side note - you weren't even close with your past hypothesis. Baby Boiler it working just fine this season



Oh, really?  The boiler was hitting high limit, but not heating the structure, and you're claiming that was not a flow problem?

If the boiler is hitting high limit, then it's doing its job in generating heat.  If it can't keep up, then the water flow is not sufficient.  That part ain't rocket science.

So, you still haven't answered my question about what I'm supposed to be selling.  For someone who keeps (falsely) accusing others to avoiding questions, that seems quite hypocritical...

Joe


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## whippingwater (Feb 27, 2009)

BrownianHeatingTech said:
			
		

> I could make two or three times what I do, if I went back into engineering, professionally.
> 
> Joe



That explains it. Only an engineer could have a complete disregard for common sense and logic.


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Feb 27, 2009)

whippingwater said:
			
		

> BrownianHeatingTech said:
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Common sense is not very common.  Legitimate engineers (not overpaid managers) get that way by having far _more_ of it than average.

You admit that there are problems with the system, and someone tells you the reason, and your response is that saying there are problems with the system is nonsensical?

Hardly logical...

Joe


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## whippingwater (Feb 27, 2009)

There are not problems with the system that cannot be controlled. Idle auger time is adjustable to control a burnback problem at idle. If idle time is a problem with a system then it will be a problem with all models during light load conditions. I know, your defense is how you understood what Bioheat told you and your solution is to remove a $12-14000 boiler and replace it with a $10-12000 boiler (excluding parts and labor). But you would still idle during light load conditions. But please feel free to tell me again to call Bioheat, because I say idle is not a CAUSE. It's simply the opportunity. I love my Tarm.


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Feb 27, 2009)

whippingwater said:
			
		

> There are not problems with the system that cannot be controlled. Idle auger time is adjustable to control a burnback problem at idle.



You can't turn the idle low enough to eliminate all problems.



			
				whippingwater said:
			
		

> If idle time is a problem with a system then it will be a problem with all models during light load conditions.



It will, if the load is light enough.



			
				whippingwater said:
			
		

> I know, your defense is how you understood what Bioheat told you and your solution is to remove a $12-14000 boiler and replace it with a $10-12000 boiler (excluding parts and labor). But you would still idle during light load conditions. But please feel free to tell me again to call Bioheat, because I say idle is not a CAUSE. It's simply the opportunity.



The "right" solution is to install the correct boiler.  For most folks, the most practical solution is to install a dump zone to force the boiler to have some load on it.  It wastes fuel, and may overheat the area that it is pumping heat into, but it creates enough load to avoid the burn-back.

What I've suggested to others with this problem, is to install a digital temperature controller (like a Ranco ETC, or similar) with the probe near the burnback sensor.  Set it a bit below the trigger temperature, and have it operate a dump zone (typically a fan convector, or the like).  That way, it will only trigger the dump zone when actually necessary to prevent a burnback.  When the temp in the auger tunnel hits the trigger point, the controller will activate the dump zone, pulling heat out of the boiler and thereby causing the boiler to cycle.  By cycling the boiler into a burn, the auger moves the burning pellets away from the tunnel.

A more-audacious solution is to install a thermal storage system, as with a wood boiler, sized to absorb a full hopper-load of energy.  Then the boiler can be run as a batch-fired appliance.  That eliminates some of the benefit of an automatic pellet boiler.  On the other hand, the 4.0 can (theoretically) be set up to take coarser fuels than the other two boilers.  Like pelletized switchgrass, for example.  So, someone could theoretically grow something like switchgrass, and feed it into a bath-fired 4.0, heating storage tanks and using a very inexpensive fuel in that way.

That's just two potential options - there are quite a few ways to address these sort of issues.  The first step is to find out _why_ the particular system is having burn-backs.  Then a means of remedying the problem for that particular system can be developed.



			
				whippingwater said:
			
		

> I love my Tarm.



I rather fond of them, too.  I wouldn't recommend, sell, or install the things if I didn't think they were a fine piece of equipment.  Other companies use paper stickers to identify their work, which usually fade after a handful of years.  I use photo-anodized, image-stabilized aluminum nameplates.  When I install a system, my name will be on it for a handful of decades.  There is not one of those out there on a product that I don't still feel is worthy of that consideration.  Even in the cases of products I no longer deal with due to problems with the manufacturers, and such.  I won't put that nameplate on anything I don't feel comfortable having my name on, for decades to come, and the Tarm pellet boilers are more than worthy.

That doesn't mean they don't have their own quirks and issues.  Everything out there does.  I'm a big fan of diesel trucks, but I still grumble at having to plug the block heater in.  Doesn't mean I'd rather have a gasser.  Just means that I make sure to bring an extension cord with me.

The Tarm pellet boilers are great boilers.  That doesn't mean that sizing them correctly is not important.

Joe


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## Sting (Feb 28, 2009)

BrownianHeatingTech said:
			
		

> PM's from the anonymous folks on the Internet, versus discussions with the actual manufacturers/importers/resellers of these various products.  Hmm... who knows more about what is and isn't correct?




jo -- your not worth the effort


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## whippingwater (Feb 28, 2009)

BrownianHeatingTech said:
			
		

> whippingwater said:
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Once again, the auger idle interval is adjustable from 60 minutes to 1 minute (which would only be necessary if the pellets were impregnated with kerosene) so the auger interval can be  shortened enough to push the pellets into the burn chamber sooner and correct the problem. Instead the engineer makes things more complicated by adding additional controls, probably recommended by a salesman, rather than using the controls on the appliance. But, what do I know, I'm just a dumb truck driver and you can't possibly be wrong. I'm done with forums.


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Feb 28, 2009)

whippingwater said:
			
		

> Once again, the auger idle interval is adjustable from 60 minutes to 1 minute (which would only be necessary if the pellets were impregnated with kerosene) so the auger interval can be  shortened enough to push the pellets into the burn chamber sooner and correct the problem. Instead the engineer makes things more complicated by adding additional controls, probably recommended by a salesman, rather than using the controls on the appliance.
> 
> If you turn the idle interval down, you are increasing the amount of fuel being fed into the fire.
> 
> ...


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## whippingwater (Feb 28, 2009)

I'm sorry Joe, you're right. It has to be one or the other. With only 60 available setting positions, how does the manufacturer expect a user to find a balance between burning back and overheating.  And this could not possibly be a cause for the original posters problem. My apologies.


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## Sting (Feb 28, 2009)

I am sure the resident "expert" feels better now

and I am sure as long as jo has anything to do with BAXI I will not own one!

Thats a bright spot for your big belt buckle jo  -- one pissed off customer and a loss of potential others because you proved a blue boiler with cast name plates cannot be idle fired

Good Job!


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Mar 1, 2009)

Sting said:
			
		

> I am sure the resident "expert" feels better now
> 
> and I am sure as long as jo has anything to do with BAXI I will not own one!
> 
> ...



Sting, given your earlier threat blaming Pinnacle/Trager for making a bad boiler, when the cause was really your bad install, I think everyone who likes and understands these boilers is quite relieved that you won't be buying one.  They don't need the bad publicity you would give them, when you blamed them for your mistakes.

Joe


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## Sting (Mar 1, 2009)

Nice spin again jo

As my goal is to keep you honest and point out at any turn your real goal here (To promote your sales) -- and I know that's going to be daunting - near to impossible with out some help from a few of the other people you have alienated over the season, ill just correct a few of more of you Spin Doctor "facts"

ONE - my dispersion on Pinnacle/Traeger was not for making a bad boiler -- Its just a simple vertical tube appliance, How can that be bad jo? and I await with baited breath at your response to that question -- NOT - To set your jaded "threat" straight, I have a dear dislike for the newest negative pressure burn chamber design due to the less than fault tolerant choice of hair dryer doing the exhaust job - plus the inability to service this feature. Everything else is a very robust and simple to operate design - and - oh this should burn your shorts -- the Traeger feed system doesn't display a propensity to burn back like machines with their pretty cast and riveted placards.  

TWO - get over your self -- my install is not bad. You spun that prevarication just as you have most others on this board. I was simply looking for ways to get more BTU's out of my burn pot and into energy transmission. I was looking for means to burn more pounds per hour of corn to accomplish that. And you decided my installation was poor.  Even after exhaustive grilling, you were not able to find fault with any part of the installation. Guess what pal -- there isn't and I accomplished my goal with the help of others willing and -- ABLE-- to help.

THREE - HERE is my mistake -- and it goes back a ways so try and keep up here jo. My mistake was believing you had a brain and might be able to help with modifying my stock burn system.  -- You should be ashamed, but its plain your not.  Go lay by your dish! or spin this one back - it will either keep you in the limelight you desire, or the webmaster will get sick of one or both of us! Anyone car to guess the one I might pick? 






Oh now look what you did --you make me burn my oatmeal on the stove  Guess Ill have to enhance my typing speed or was my installation bad on that too?


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Mar 1, 2009)

Sting said:
			
		

> As my goal is to keep you honest and point out at any turn your real goal here (To promote your sales) -- and I know that's going to be impossible, ill just correct a few of more of you Spin Doctor "facts"



You still haven't answered what "sales" I'm promoting, Sting.



			
				Sting said:
			
		

> ONE - my dispersion on Pinnacle/Traeger was not for making a bad boiler -- Its just a simple vertical tube appliance, How can that be bad jo? and I await with baited breath at your response to that question -- NOT - To set your jaded "threat" straight, I have a dear dislike for the newest negative pressure burn chamber design due to the less than fault tolerant choice of hair dryer doing the exhaust job - plus the inability to service this feature. Everything else is a very robust and simple to operate design...



Yeah, I guess accusing them of not meeting their rated efficiency:


			
				Sting said:
			
		

> I would be thrilled with 80
> 
> as a master - you better figure more like 70% smoking an old Traeger



Or the rated output...


			
				Sting said:
			
		

> I get ALMOST 60,000 btu from an appliance rated at 130,000.





			
				Sting said:
			
		

> IF I could burn more ponds per hour of corn I could get to appliance rated potential



et cetera, going on about it not being able to keep up based upon degree days, and such.

However, based upon the numbers that you provided, the appliance was actually making it's rated output, easily.



			
				Sting said:
			
		

> - and - oh this should burn your shorts -- the Traeger feed system doesn't display a propensity to burn back like machines with their pretty cast and riveted placards.



Why would that bother me?  I like, recommend, and install both boilers.  The each have particular benefits/drawbacks, depending upon the particular situation.  Some folks like the "revolving door" safety of the Pinnacle/Traeger unit.  Others like the fact that the Tarm has an active fire-suppression system.  The Tarm is chimney vented, only.  The Pinnacle/Traeger can be direct-vented.  The Tarm has higher efficiency, but is a more-complex unit.  The Pinnacle/Traeger doesn't attain the same efficiency numbers, but can be maintained and repaired by a competent mechanic, with little more than access to the Grainger catalog.



			
				Sting said:
			
		

> TWO - get over your self -- my install is not bad. You spun that prevarication just as you have most others on this board. I was simply looking for ways to get more BTU's out of my burn pot and into energy transmission. I was looking for means to burn more pounds per hour of corn to accomplish that. And you decided my installation was poor.  Even after exhaustive grilling, you were not able to find fault with any part of the installation. Guess what pal -- there isn't and I accomplished my goal with the help of others willing and -- ABLE-- to help.



Your install is bad, based upon the numbers that you provided.  You had inadequate water flow through the heat exchanger.  Again, based upon the numbers that you provided.  The calculations for btu's provided are quite simple...  40 degrees temperature rise over a heat exchanger at 6gpm is 120kbtuh, and a boiler that can maintain a 40% duty cycle on a 36-heating-degree-day day, can provide sufficient heat to handle a 90-heating-degree-day day, not the 50-60-hdd that you claimed the boiler topped out at.  If your install isn't bad, then you provided false data.  One or the other.

Joe


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## Sting (Mar 1, 2009)

You just cannot get over your pompous self and accept that the burn event was the issue.

Your loss - not mine 

And you searched out my old thread and spun it to your advantage 

I am so flattered.  

OH and above -- you answered your own question re sales - What do you post that sell and install - but your not a salesman ?????

- Ahemmm  "One or the other"
- Good Job jo


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Mar 1, 2009)

Sting said:
			
		

> You just cannot get over your pompous self and accept that the burn event was the issue.



"The burn event."  Is that an event like a parade or something?



			
				Sting said:
			
		

> And you searched out my old thread and spun it to your advantage
> 
> I am so flattered.



Don't be.  Typing "Sting" and "Pinnacle" into the search box didn't exactly take much effort.



			
				Sting said:
			
		

> OH and above -- you answered your own question re sales - What do you post that sell and install - but your not a salesman ?????



I'm an engineer who decided he preferred hands-on work to sitting behind a desk.  So I gave that up to start out as an apprentice and learned a trade that interested me, from the bottom, and on up.

So, I will design systems for folks, and explain the advantages/drawbacks of various options.  If they like what I've presented, I will sell them the equipment and install it.  But I don't do "sales."  The only "technique" I have is to provide folks with honest answers and let them make up their own minds on what they need and want.

A salesman would tell folks that they need the larger boiler, Sting.  An engineer and/or an honest tradesman would tell them what I told them above, even though it might cost him some profit.

And you still haven't addressed what I'm supposedly selling, by answering a question from some guy in Maine, when I don't do work in that state...

Thanks for the entertainment, though.  It's a busy time of year, and you're providing a great deal of comic relief for myself and others.

Joe


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## Sting (Mar 1, 2009)

Your beginning to show signs of the strain of covering up your various spins

And as you elude to help hide your debacle - How did you "explain the advantages/drawbacks of various options" to folks so they might sleep well at with a Tarm in the basement????

Oh yes -- Buy something else or make sure the fire suppression system works

I am sure that will provide "comic relief" for your anonymous "manufacturers/importers/resellers" 

Good Job jo


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Mar 1, 2009)

Sting said:
			
		

> And as you elude to help hide your debacle - How did you "explain the advantages/drawbacks of various options" to folks so they might sleep well at with a Tarm in the basement????
> 
> Oh yes -- Buy something else or make sure the fire suppression system works



I wouldn't install a system without the addition of one simple control that can avoid so many problems.  I mean, adding just that can be sufficient to prevent a burnback caused by a break in the door's airseal, as was previously mentioned as another potential cause.  It's triggered by the beginning of a burnback rather than relative to any cause, so it really doesn't matter _why_ a burnback is starting, for the dump zone to be triggered.

So no, it's not something extra.  In my opinion, it's part of any proper install.

Joe


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## paul2e (Mar 2, 2009)

My experience with my 2.5 is the basis of my questions & opinions

What is the condition of the gasket between the hopper and the firebox? Is that seal tight ? Is the floor flat and level?
What is the condition of the tar build up? I have noticed that it does tend to creep into the auger tunnel just a bit.
How often is the unit cleaned? Completely? Has the arch ever been removed? What is the position of the arch? How often are the ashes moved away from the auger? or even removed? Daily?

The different pellets I have used this past season, 6 tons so far, have vastly different qualities. Some are perfect, light brown ash while others have formed a hard clinker the size of a tea saucer or plate completely covering the ashes/fire. About one month ago I emptied and cleaned all of the fines from the hopper. I will only do this at the beginning and the middle of the season (unless pellets conditions warrant otherwise)

About monthly I've shutdown and cleaned. Ash vac the entire unit, wire brush all surfaces and tubes (pay attention to the blow holes too). remove all of the tar buildup.

Lastly here in Maine we have had really poor power reliability this season. What has been done to mitigate power outage overheat and/or burn back? UPS on the circulator? Proper shut down when lost power?

I think that burning pellets requires some maintenance/oversight daily.


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## paul2e (Mar 4, 2009)

There is also a "tube" that connects to the hopper in the upper left corner. I believe that this is an air tube that creates positive pressure in the hopper. What is the condition of this tube? blocked? connected etc.


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## dosat1 (Jan 7, 2010)

thank you all for the input into the problem.  I do have an update from my neighbor.  Apparently a valve in the fire suppression system was leaking so that he was having water dripping into the burn area as well as hydrating the pellets which were then binding up his auger system which I think led to the burn back problem.  He has not used the boiler since the replacement of the faulty valve due to his concern for the safety of the system.  The Tarm representative did visit the site and opined on the faulty valve with the installer eventually replacing it.  Nevertheless the boiler has not been used since. Anyone else having problems with a valve on the firesuppression system? I do not know what my neighbor will do with his inactive boiler.  He is very disappointed with how he has been treated by the installation company however.


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## sinnian (Jan 7, 2010)

This is why I bought what I did!  Simplicity of design is most often the better choice  ;-P


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## whippingwater (Jan 7, 2010)

sinnian said:
			
		

> This is why I bought what I did!  Simplicity of design is most often the better choice  ;-P


I bought my tarm 4.0 for the same price as yours.  ;-P


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## Freefromoil (Dec 29, 2010)

Poor manufacturer design is the cause of this issue and until manufacturer corrects the issue will persist/  I would consider finding other Tarm owners and threaten class action lawsuit.


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## paul2e (Jan 6, 2011)

About two weeks ago during a cleaning I noted a slight drip from the fire suppression port in the feed tube of my Tarm 2.5. This was during a complete cleaning so there were no pellets in the tube at all so it was easy to see. I have to say that I was lucky that the drip must have been light and didn't put the fire out. When I dis-assembled the valve there was a bit of crud preventing a complete seal and allowing water to weep. I cleaned it up and cleaned the screen on the water supply too. I could have also simply just replaced the entire valve or even just the internal plunger portion but it really wasn't too bad. I was careful when I reassembled the unit not to tighten the actuator too tight onto the valve, as this would open the value. There are a number of other manufactures making this same fire suppression valve so replacements are available.

I suspect that this was the original problem in this thread rather then a manufacturing defect.  As Dosat1 said above, the valve leaked and the pellets became hydrated. If they were hydrated enough to bind/stop the auger in a Tarm, I seriously doubt this was a burn back event. Wet jammed pellets don't burn that well. Just a leaky valve and a lot of wet messy pellets. Could look like a burn back but it isn't.


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