# Flame Strength/Expansion Question



## N8T (Dec 4, 2018)

I have a Heatilator gas fireplace Model CD4236IR.  I am unable to determine why flame does not expand or strengthen after ignition.  See photos. 
1) Entire pilot assembly was replaced a couple years ago and fireplace was in good working order.
2) Pilot ignites easily and blue flame is present but flame never expands or strengthens after lighting.
3) Today I inspected entire pilot assembly for dirt or corrosion and it was very clean.  I lightly cleaned the rods just in case and vacuumed the area. I repeated ignition and flame remains the same as seen in photos.
Thoughts on further troubleshooting?  Thanks!


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## DAKSY (Dec 4, 2018)

Check the ground screw for tightness/good contact with the fireplace body.


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## N8T (Dec 4, 2018)

DAKSY said:


> Check the ground screw for tightness/good contact with the fireplace body.



I verified the ground screw is tight and has good contact with the fireplace body the flame still does not expand or strengthen after ignition.  Any other thoughts?  Thanks!


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## Millbilly (Dec 4, 2018)

Do you have a multimeter and know how to use it?


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## N8T (Dec 4, 2018)

Millbilly said:


> Do you have a multimeter and know how to use it?



Yes I have a meter that I use to test AA batteries but I don't know how to use it for the fireplace.  I assume I would use the DCV setting and set it at 20 but I don't know where to place positive and negative probes.  Are you thinking there is a problem with the electrical current strength which inhibits the valve from allowing more gas to flow?  If I said that correctly...?


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## Millbilly (Dec 4, 2018)

So I think your thought process is incorrect in that the pilot flame "grows". The gas flows to the pilot and burner from 2 separate lines from the valve.  The burner line feeds the burner pan and the pilot simply lights it.  When you turn on your burner I would make sure your valve for the burner is being energized first. If it is the next step is to check for burner flow obstruction.


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## Millbilly (Dec 4, 2018)

Look at your valve and let us know if you see where an orange and a green wire connect to the valve. One energizes the pilot and the other the burner.


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## DAKSY (Dec 4, 2018)

One other thing to try: Take a small plastic handled screwdriver & give the gas valve a sharp "rap" with the handle end. 
Don't MASH it. Just rap it hard enough that you may free up a stuck solenoid in the regulator head...


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## wooduser (Dec 4, 2018)

It looks like you have an "intermittent pilot"  ignition system.

When the burner is turned off,  the pilot burner and main burner shut off completely.

When you turn the thermostat or switch on for heat,  the gas to the pilot burner is switched on along with a spark to light the pilot burner.

If the pilot lights,  it engulfs the rod on the right.  An AC voltage is applied to that electrode.   When the pilot engulfs the electrode,  a small DC current flows through the electrode,  through the pilot burner flame (which rectifies the ac to dc) to ground.  The fireplace electronics can detect that DC current,  and when it finds it it turns on the main burner gas.

It sounds like the pilot is lighting but not the main burner.

Daksy is leading you through the process of determining why the main burner gas is not being turned on  ----there are several things that can be the problem.


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## N8T (Dec 6, 2018)

Millbilly said:


> Look at your valve and let us know if you see where an orange and a green wire connect to the valve. One energizes the pilot and the other the burner.



I took a look at the valve and identified the orange and green wires you mentioned.  I took two pictures: one of the Dexen wiring box and the other showing the two wires connected to the valve.  Is this where I place my meter to measure AC voltage?


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## k0wtz (Dec 6, 2018)

N8T said:


> I have a Heatilator gas fireplace Model CD4236IR.  I am unable to determine why flame does not expand or strengthen after ignition.  See photos.
> 1) Entire pilot assembly was replaced a couple years ago and fireplace was in good working order.
> 2) Pilot ignites easily and blue flame is present but flame never expands or strengthens after lighting.
> 3) Today I inspected entire pilot assembly for dirt or corrosion and it was very clean.  I lightly cleaned the rods just in case and vacuumed the area. I repeated ignition and flame remains the same as seen in photos.
> Thoughts on further troubleshooting?  Thanks!


are your burners actually lighting?


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## N8T (Dec 6, 2018)

k0wtz said:


> are your burners actually lighting?



Pilot flame is lighting and staying on.  Burner is not lighting.  I checked burner for any obstructions and everything is very clean.  Based on my review of previous posts it appears I need to determine voltage of the current using my multimeter...


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## Millbilly (Dec 6, 2018)

Yes. DC low setting.  One probe on connector if you can sneak it in there, other on the valve body.  I can allready tell you will see voltage to the orange one.  Test the green one to the main when you turn it on.  You will likely see an initial voltage then a lower maintenance voltage.  If you see this now on to the next step. You can try gently rapping on the valve as Daksy said and checking burner orifice/line for obstruction.


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## N8T (Dec 7, 2018)

Millbilly said:


> Yes. DC low setting.  One probe on connector if you can sneak it in there, other on the valve body.  I can allready tell you will see voltage to the orange one.  Test the green one to the main when you turn it on.  You will likely see an initial voltage then a lower maintenance voltage.  If you see this now on to the next step. You can try gently rapping on the valve as Daksy said and checking burner orifice/line for obstruction.



I placed the black probe on ground and red probe on connector with green wire still attached to connector.  My reading was 1.48 when using the DCV 20 setting on my multimeter.  Then I started gently wrapping on the valve with the plastic handle of screwdriver and that is when gas started to flow to the burner.  It is now functioning.  So based on my review of Daksy's comments it sounds like the problem was a stuck solenoid in the regulator head.  Is there any proactive maintenance I should take going forward to prevent this from happening again?  Also, when the solenoid was stuck what problem does that cause?  In other words what is the function of the solenoid?  As you can tell I am learning about how these work.  Many thanks to all of you gentlemen for helping me.  I really appreciate it and wish you all a happy holiday.  Thanks again!


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## Millbilly (Dec 7, 2018)

Yes. Use your fireplace! The worst thing to do is let them sit for years in my experience. 


N8T said:


> I placed the black probe on ground and red probe on connector with green wire still attached to connector.  My reading was 1.48 when using the DCV 20 setting on my multimeter.  Then I started gently wrapping on the valve with the plastic handle of screwdriver and that is when gas started to flow to the burner.  It is now functioning.  So based on my review of Daksy's comments it sounds like the problem was a stuck solenoid in the regulator head.  Is there any proactive maintenance I should take going forward to prevent this from happening again?  Also, when the solenoid was stuck what problem does that cause?  In other words what is the function of the solenoid?  As you can tell I am learning about how these work.  Many thanks to all of you gentlemen for helping me.  I really appreciate it and wish you all a happy holiday.  Thanks again!


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## wooduser (Dec 8, 2018)

N8T said:


> . My reading was 1.48 when using the DCV 20 setting on my multimeter. Then I started gently wrapping on the valve with the plastic handle of screwdriver and that is when gas started to flow to the burner. It is now functioning. So based on my review of Daksy's comments it sounds like the problem was a stuck solenoid in the regulator head.




Ummm.  Frankly I've never been involved with repairs on this ignition system,  which came out after I retired from doing fireplace repairs.  So take the following comments with a degree of scepticism.

However,  you have an ignition system that's designed to operate on a three volt battery power supply,  and the voltage to turn on the main burner gas appears to be 1.48 volts.  If you rap on the gas valve,  that causes the main burner gas to turn on.

That suggests to me that the reason the gas valve isn't turning on reliably is not a sticking solenoid,  by a voltage from the ignition module that is too low,  not providing enough voltage to turn the gas valve on reliably.

]You might try measuring the voltage being supplied by the 3 volt power supply  to see if it's at the proper voltage,  or try putting fresh,  high quality batteries in and seeing if thast improves things.

Another possibility is that the ignition control module is getting adequate voltage but poor electrical connections,  such as a poor connection on a relay, is giving a substandard voltage to operate  the electric gas valve.

The Dexen Industries ignition module GM-6KA information is available from one of your pictures.  But if you would care to provide the make and model of the electric gas valve  I'll see if I can find the voltage that should be applied to it to get the main burner gas to turn on properly.  I'll bet that should be 3 volts and not 1.48 volts.    You should find the make and model of the gas valve listed on the front of the gas valve.


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## Millbilly (Dec 8, 2018)

I believe the voltage drops to maintain the valve open once it initially opens.  If the flame looks fine I'd call it a day.


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## wooduser (Dec 9, 2018)

Millbilly said:


> I believe the voltage drops to maintain the valve open once it initially opens.  If the flame looks fine I'd call it a day.




Do you have a reference for that suggestion on how the ignition module and gas valve work?   On every intermittent pilot  ignition system I've ever seen,  the ignition module provides the operating voltage to the pilot burner and main burner gas and keeps it at that level until the burner is turned off. So on an ignition control powered by 24 VAC,  the voltage to operate the gas valve is also 24 VAC.  I am therefore presuming that with a 3VDC power supply,  the voltage to operate the gas valve would be 3VDC,  and a measured voltage of 1.48 VDC indicates a problem,  such as that the main burner gas is not turning on reliably.

Furthermore,  the ignition control has no way to detect if the main burner gas valve has opened.  The ignition control turns on the pilot burner gas and detects the fact that the pilot burner has lit,  and if and when it does,  it turns on the main burner gas with the assumption that the main burner will light off the pilot burner.

But there is no independent check to verify that it has.


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## Millbilly (Dec 9, 2018)

wooduser said:


> Do you have a reference for that suggestion on how the ignition module and gas valve work?   On every intermittent pilot  ignition system I've ever seen,  the ignition module provides the operating voltage to the pilot burner and main burner gas and keeps it at that level until the burner is turned off. So on an ignition control powered by 24 VAC,  the voltage to operate the gas valve is also 24 VAC.  I am therefore presuming that with a 3VDC power supply,  the voltage to operate the gas valve would be 3VDC,  and a measured voltage of 1.48 VDC indicates a problem,  such as that the main burner gas is not turning on reliably.
> 
> Furthermore,  the ignition control has no way to detect if the main burner gas valve has opened.  The ignition control turns on the pilot burner gas and detects the fact that the pilot burner has lit,  and if and when it does,  it turns on the main burner gas with the assumption that the main burner will light off the pilot burner.
> 
> But there is no independent check to verify that it has.


Sounds to me like his voltage is in spec.  I believe his uses Dexen controls.  I am more familiar with sit controls.  Your presumption is incorrect.


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## Millbilly (Dec 9, 2018)




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## wooduser (Dec 9, 2018)

Millbilly said:


> Sounds to me like his voltage is in spec. I believe his uses Dexen controls. I am more familiar with sit controls. Your presumption is incorrect.





Yes,  you are correct.  Thanks for the reference.

I learned something new today!

I suppose that's to conserve limited battery life.  Do you know how that change in voltage works?  Does it operate at the high voltage fo a few seconds,  with the idea that the higher voltage will open the main burner gas valve,  and then drop to the lower voltage on the assumption that the lower voltage will keep it open?


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## wooduser (Dec 9, 2018)

https://manuals.fire-parts.com/aws-...i_troubleshooting_guide_1-pdf.pdf?inline=true


It looks as though we are at page 12,  "Does main burner light?

Answer,  no.

Of course,  this apparently is not a SIT valve....


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## Millbilly (Dec 10, 2018)

wooduser said:


> Yes,  you are correct.  Thanks for the reference.
> 
> I learned something new today!
> 
> I suppose that's to conserve limited battery life.  Do you know how that change in voltage works?  Does it operate at the high voltage fo a few seconds,  with the idea that the higher voltage will open the main burner gas valve,  and then drop to the lower voltage on the assumption that the lower voltage will keep it open?


Glad I could teach something. I believe that is the concept.


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## N8T (Dec 13, 2018)

Millbilly said:


> Yes. Use your fireplace! The worst thing to do is let them sit for years in my experience.



Hi again.  So I've been using my fireplace the last couple nights.  Each time I must tap the valve with the plastic handle of my screw driver to get the gas to flow so that the burner will light.  However, last night the burner flame gradually got lower and lower before it went out.  So now I'm wondering whether the valve needs replacing or whether there is an electrical issue?  The burner definitely does not want to light on its own or stay on over 30 minute period.  My multimeter still reads 1.48 but I'm wondering if there is a problem with the black electric box module.  Thoughts?


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## wooduser (Dec 13, 2018)

N8T said:


> Hi again.  So I've been using my fireplace the last couple nights.  Each time I must tap the valve with the plastic handle of my screw driver to get the gas to flow so that the burner will light.  However, last night the burner flame gradually got lower and lower before it went out.  So now I'm wondering whether the valve needs replacing or whether there is an electrical issue?  The burner definitely does not want to light on its own or stay on over 30 minute period.  My multimeter still reads 1.48 but I'm wondering if there is a problem with the black electric box module.  Thoughts?




https://downloads.hearthnhome.com/installManuals/4042_575.pdf


Here is a fireplace manual that apparently uses the same system you have  ---I'd check your own manual to see that it's the same or similar.

Page 52-53 provide repair guidance if the fireplace doesn't light properly.  Does the pilot burner continue to spark when the pilot is lit? 

Unfortunately,  the repair guidance doesn;t contain advice for you condition,  which appears to be a pilot that lights but no main burner gas.

Since the pilot lights and the spark  I'm supposing) does shut off,  the next step should be that the module energizes the electric gas valve to reliably turn the main burner gas on. That's what I'm hearing is not happening.

That means either you aren't getting sufficient voltage to open the main burner gas valve (bad batteries or bad module)  or the voltage is good but the gas valve is failing to open when it should  (bad gas valve).


Please provide the make and model of the gas valve,  which will be found listed on the front of the gas valve.  I should be able to look up the specifications for the gas valve and see the voltage that is supposed to be provided to open the gas valve reliably.


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## Mark Olson (Nov 8, 2020)

wooduser said:


> Ummm.  Frankly I've never been involved with repairs on this ignition system,  which came out after I retired from doing fireplace repairs.  So take the following comments with a degree of scepticism.
> 
> However,  you have an ignition system that's designed to operate on a three volt battery power supply,  and the voltage to turn on the main burner gas appears to be 1.48 volts.  If you rap on the gas valve,  that causes the main burner gas to turn on.
> 
> ...


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## Mark Olson (Nov 8, 2020)

Hello!  Brand new to this forum and having the same problem with my fireplace.  From what I've read, I believe my gas valve may be faulty.  I have Pilot light, voltages all check out.  My question is this: can the gas valve be replaced easily without having to mess around with any gas connections?  I'm not comfortable with gas lines but pretty good with a screwdriver! Just trying to find out if this is something I can fix or if I need too call in the Pro's.  Thanks for any info !


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## DAKSY (Nov 8, 2020)

Mark Olson said:


> Hello!  Brand new to this forum and having the same problem with my fireplace.  From what I've read, I believe my gas valve may be faulty.  I have Pilot light, voltages all check out.  My question is this: can the gas valve be replaced easily without having to mess around with any gas connections?  I'm not comfortable with gas lines but pretty good with a screwdriver! Just trying to find out if this is something I can fix or if I need too call in the Pro's.  Thanks for any info !



What unit do you have?


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## Mark Olson (Nov 8, 2020)

DAKSY said:


> What unit do you have?


It's a Hearth & Home Model 6000BE-IPI.  I already swapped out the Dexen box because that's what the gas company said it probably was but it's not that.


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## DAKSY (Nov 8, 2020)

OK. What symptoms do you have?
They aren't in wooduser's post.


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## Mark Olson (Nov 8, 2020)

Mark Olson said:


> It's a Hearth & Home Model 6000BE-IPI.  I already swapped out the Dexen box because that's what the gas company said it probably was but it's not that.





DAKSY said:


> OK. What symptoms do you have?
> They aren't in wooduser's post.


I have pilot light but the main burner is not opening.


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## DAKSY (Nov 8, 2020)

Did this problem just start?
Did you try rapping the valve solenoid with the handle of a screwdriver?
Have you pulled the burner, & checked behind the burner orifice?


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## Mark Olson (Nov 8, 2020)

DAKSY said:


> Did this problem just start?
> Did you try rapping the valve solenoid with the handle of a screwdriver?
> Have you pulled the burner, & checked behind the burner orifice?


Yes, one day it just quit working.  Yes, tried rapping on it,.  Haven't pulled the burner.  Not sure how to do that, or how to go about it.  Not sure where to start taking things apart and what I'm getting myself into.


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## DAKSY (Nov 8, 2020)

If your manual is the same as the one on HHT's site, then
if you remove the logs, you should see a burner like this. 
Remove (2) 1/4" hex head screws & slide the tube off the orifice.
Remove the orifice & swipe behind it with a cotton swab.


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## Mark Olson (Nov 8, 2020)

DAKSY said:


> If your manual is the same as the one on HHT's site, then
> if you remove the logs, you should see a burner like this.
> Remove (2) 1/4" hex head screws & slide the tube off the orifice.
> Remove the orifice & swipe behind it with a cotton swab.
> ...


Ok, I will try that and see what happens.  Thank you for the help!


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## Mark Olson (Nov 8, 2020)

Mark Olson said:


> Ok, I will try that and see what happens.  Thank you for the help!


OK, I took the logs out and the burner.  There was what looked like dandelion wishes stuck on the gas line where it goes into the burner.  I thought 'That's it!'.  But no, it wasn't.  Tried rapping on it again, no difference.  Still have pilot light and I can hear it continue to click like its trying to light.  Then Pilot light goes out after maybe 30 seconds which to me seems that it's sensing the main burner is not lighting. I'm back to square one.  Is the actual gas valve something that is 'user serviceable'?
I really think this might be something simple to fix.  It was really dusty underneath, but I got that all cleaned up.


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## Mark Olson (Nov 8, 2020)

Mark Olson said:


> OK, I took the logs out and the burner.  There was what looked like dandelion wishes stuck on the gas line where it goes into the burner.  I thought 'That's it!'.  But no, it wasn't.  Tried rapping on it again, no difference.  Still have pilot light and I can hear it continue to click like its trying to light.  Then Pilot light goes out after maybe 30 seconds which to me seems that it's sensing the main burner is not lighting. I'm back to square one.  Is the actual gas valve something that is 'user serviceable'?
> I really think this might be something simple to fix.  It was really dusty underneath, but I got that all cleaned up.


OK, update.  I swapped out the Dexen box to the new one and it fired up.  But it was struggling to stay lit.  It would go full flame, then back to almost nothing, full, flame, almost nothing.  Back and forth.  what does that mean?


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## DAKSY (Nov 8, 2020)

Have you checked the ground wire connection? Is it tight?


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## Mark Olson (Nov 8, 2020)

DAKSY said:


> Have you checked the ground wire connection? Is it tight?


Yes, everything under there looks like normal.  I'm wondering if the ember material is blocking the holes in the top of the burner and throwing things off.  But it's not like anything has moved before I took it apart.  Think I'll tear it apart again and remove the ember material to see if that makes any difference.


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## DAKSY (Nov 8, 2020)

Have you checked the gas pressure?
Does it hold steady?


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## Mark Olson (Nov 8, 2020)

That I have NO idea how to do....


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## DAKSY (Nov 8, 2020)

Ok. Not something you ought get into. Are you burning NG or LP?


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## Mark Olson (Nov 8, 2020)

NG.  And I forgot, the gas company said there was no issues with the gas lines.  So I just pulled the ember material out and it lights perfectly.  Now my problem is the wall switch which used to be how we turned it on and off doesn't do that.  When I turn it on with the switch underneath it fires right up.  Doesn't matter which position the wall switch is in.  It used to fire up and then the fan would turn on like 10-15 minutes after.  I always figured the wall switch was the main power and there was some setting in the fireplace that waited for some reason to turn the fan on. After turning it off, the fan would continue to run another 10-15min also.


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## Mark Olson (Nov 8, 2020)

Well, I got it going but it's still failing to stay lit.  My wife is going to have the gas company back out to check it again.  I appreciate your help SO much!  Thank you!


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## DAKSY (Nov 8, 2020)

There should NOT be 120v at the wall switch.
That may also be a source of the problem.
Pull it & look. There should only be 18ga t-stat wire on it.
Jumping the wires will tell you if the switch is bad...
Good luck. I'm tired & gonna crash.


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## Mark Olson (Nov 11, 2020)

DAKSY said:


> There should NOT be 120v at the wall switch.
> That may also be a source of the problem.
> Pull it & look. There should only be 18ga t-stat wire on it.
> Jumping the wires will tell you if the switch is bad...
> Good luck. I'm tired & gonna crash.


OK, so the wall switch controls the power strip that the fan and the Dexen box is plugged into underneath.  That's how it was built.  We've lived here for 4 years and this is the only problem we've had with the fireplace.  Why wouldn't it be 120v?  What are your thought on where I should go with this next?  The gas company is coming out tomorrow to double check everything, including the gas pressure I assume.   I guess if they come up with something it will lead me in a different direction.


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## DAKSY (Nov 12, 2020)

The only thing I can say to check is the rectification rod in the pilot flame. 
clean it with some steel wool...


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