# Waste gasifier?



## begreen (Jan 28, 2020)

Anyone have experience or knowledge of this process? It says it can be zero-emission. Does it create ash or slag? They are pretty big on promoting the pros, what are the cons?



			https://www.sierraenergy.com/technology/fastox-gasification/


----------



## ABMax24 (Jan 28, 2020)

Not sure, I'd like to know more as well, they are supposed to build a similar plant here, it will turn organic waste into diesel fuel including using old railroad ties.









						Plant that would produce fuel out of garbage may come to Grande Prairie
					

A pair of companies are hoping to build a plant that produces fuel from feedstock derived from garbage in Gran...




					everythinggp.com
				








						Cielo Waste Solutions – Fueling the Sustainable Energy Transition
					






					www.cielows.com


----------



## blades (Jan 29, 2020)

they always talk these way up get the grants build the plant and within a few years it all goes down the drain because it can't, for one reason or another, be operated at a profit level.  That dosen't fly with muncipal or private sectors .   With the newer tech  available the best one can hope for is break even- considering the waste disposal problems now cropping up.  Can't run Biodiesel on the new generation of diesels EPA controls can't adapt, and MFG have said flat out running biodiesel will void any warranty. I looked at biodiesel for my self awhile back when fuel prices were sky high- currently it is a losing endeavor again based on current fuel costs. Combination desiel/ lpg or cng properly done will payback but it's a bit of a long shot-


----------



## ABMax24 (Jan 29, 2020)

blades said:


> they always talk these way up get the grants build the plant and within a few years it all goes down the drain because it can't, for one reason or another, be operated at a profit level.  That dosen't fly with muncipal or private sectors .   With the newer tech  available the best one can hope for is break even- considering the waste disposal problems now cropping up.  Can't run Biodiesel on the new generation of diesels EPA controls can't adapt, and MFG have said flat out running biodiesel will void any warranty. I looked at biodiesel for my self awhile back when fuel prices were sky high- currently it is a losing endeavor again based on current fuel costs. Combination desiel/ lpg or cng properly done will payback but it's a bit of a long shot-



Last time I checked most diesels are B20 certified. B20 burns cleaner than fossil fuel based diesel. The problems comes in with the fuel system itself, biodiesel has the risk of growing bacteria in the fuel tanks and gels up easier than conventional diesel.

But the amount of biodiesel that would be needed just to make B20 available at every station is huge, there is a lot of room for growth in production before that becomes a reality.


----------



## woodnomore (Feb 4, 2020)

There is a slag or mass left over after the process of breaking down. This is usually put in a lined mono fuel cell. Like a regular MSW landfill cell there is a leachate collection system. The leachate from ash mono fills is extremely corrosive and concentrated.


----------



## begreen (Feb 4, 2020)

woodnomore said:


> There is a slag or mass left over after the process of breaking down. This is usually put in a lined mono fuel cell. Like a regular MSW landfill cell there is a leachate collection system. The leachate from ash mono fills is extremely corrosive and concentrated.


Is this for Fast-Ox incineration? Can you supply some documentation or links to follow up on? 

Have you also been following this work at Rice?
https://news.rice.edu/2020/01/27/rice-lab-turns-trash-into-valuable-graphene-in-a-flash/


----------



## woodnomore (Feb 4, 2020)

begreen said:


> Is this for Fast-Ox incineration? Can you supply some documentation or links to follow up on?
> 
> Have you also been following this work at Rice?
> https://news.rice.edu/2020/01/27/rice-lab-turns-trash-into-valuable-graphene-in-a-flash/


Interesting can they handle 100 + tons a day? They also chose to ignore the fact that methane is not freely released from landfills, methane is collected and either cleaned for energy production or flared off. Either energy or odor control.


----------



## begreen (Feb 4, 2020)

What process was the comment about slag and ash mono fills about? Can you provide some more info?


----------



## woodnomore (Feb 4, 2020)

Well since I am on a discussion forum and not writing a college term paper complete with references and basing my reply on my work experience I would suggest you google ash mono fills and waste to energy. To be honest if I were so inclined I could find a number of internet sources to back up what I said and just post those, or encourage you to research the topic if you would like to get more sources.


----------



## begreen (Feb 4, 2020)

Nevermind, I was hoping that you would be helpful by simply supplying some information that would be more focussed, not a snarky response. This thread is not about traditional waste to energy plants. I have a fair amount of info on them.  If you don't know anything about the Fast-Ox process, then just say so.


----------



## peakbagger (Feb 4, 2020)

I have seen numerous fast and slow pyrolysis systems that are the next best thing for 30 years. Fischer Tropsch is pre WW2 technology that was a key part of the German war machine. It and most other pyrolysis systems need dry feedstock as a big cloud of steam vapor dos not contribute to the process. That means some sort of predrying stage and the potential for fugitive emissions that need to be dealt with. The waste ash tends to want to fuse dependent on the waste composition and the ash fusion temperature. The gas stream from the pyrolyzer is mostly CO. There usually is minimal amount of hydrogen, not enough to drive the FT process. The FT process uses catalysts and they can be poisoned so they dont work well with dirty gas streams.  Generally there are issues with coking of the waste gas stream. If there are any chlorine containing compounds, the process does not burn at a high enough temp so there are furans  and dioxins produced that need to be adsorbed somewhere. 

As a waste reduction technology its very complex operation that could be replaced with a waste boiler and steam turbien to produce power. As a operation to recover valuable feed stocks its very inefficient. Far better spending the capital on energy efficiency.


----------



## woodnomore (Feb 4, 2020)

Yeah that whole emission thing.


----------



## begreen (Feb 4, 2020)

The claim of the Fast-Ox system appears to be that it is a closed vessel system with emissions captive, no?





						How Does FastOx Gasification Work? – Sierra Energy
					






					www.sierraenergy.com


----------



## EatenByLimestone (Feb 5, 2020)

SUNY cobleskill has been working on small gasifiers intended for military use.



			SUNY Cobleskill Announces $1.6 million Grant to Test Gasifier with Department of Defense – SUNY Cobleskill


----------



## begreen (Feb 5, 2020)

EatenByLimestone said:


> SUNY cobleskill has been working on small gasifiers intended for military use.
> 
> 
> 
> SUNY Cobleskill Announces $1.6 million Grant to Test Gasifier with Department of Defense – SUNY Cobleskill


Thanks for the heads up.  Looks like it has recently been licensed for commercialization. 


			Caribou Biofuels, Incorporated Signs Option to License Agreement with the Research Foundation for SUNY on behalf of SUNY Cobleskill – SUNY Cobleskill


----------



## SpaceBus (Feb 6, 2020)

begreen said:


> Thanks for the heads up.  Looks like it has recently been licensed for commercialization.
> 
> 
> Caribou Biofuels, Incorporated Signs Option to License Agreement with the Research Foundation for SUNY on behalf of SUNY Cobleskill – SUNY Cobleskill


Wow, I want one of those rotary gassifiers!


----------



## EatenByLimestone (Feb 6, 2020)

Originally it was supposed to fit into 2 shipping containers so it can be moved to a remote base easily.


I guess currently they dig a trench and bury the trash.   They're hoping they can now power the base with the trash so they don't have to bring in the fuel for generators.


----------



## SpaceBus (Feb 6, 2020)

EatenByLimestone said:


> Originally it was supposed to fit into 2 shipping containers so it can be moved to a remote base easily.
> 
> 
> I guess currently they dig a trench and bury the trash.   They're hoping they can now power the base with the trash so they don't have to bring in the fuel for generators.


I highly doubt, based on experience, the garbage will be high enough energy content to totally replace fuel unless there is other added biomass. I liked the  two tons of biomass to 60kw conversion rate, that's pretty decent.


----------



## woodnomore (Feb 6, 2020)

Where do the heavy metals go?


----------



## begreen (Feb 6, 2020)

woodnomore said:


> Where do the heavy metals go?


Usually, there isn't a high level of heavy metals in most biomass unless there is industrial content, but if there is a build-up in the ash, can they be precipitated out like is done in advanced incineration systems like those used in Tokyo or Copenhagen?


----------



## begreen (Feb 6, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> I highly doubt, based on experience, the garbage will be high enough energy content to totally replace fuel unless there is other added biomass. I liked the  two tons of biomass to 60kw conversion rate, that's pretty decent.


If there are plastics in the garbage it has a lot more energy content.


----------



## woodnomore (Feb 6, 2020)

begreen said:


> Usually, there isn't a high level of heavy metals in most biomass unless there is industrial content, but if there is a build-up in the ash, can they be precipitated out like is done in advanced incineration systems like those used in Tokyo or Copenhagen?



The heavy metals in leachate from MSW landfills comes from somewhere, and it would be present in MSW biomass.


----------



## peakbagger (Feb 6, 2020)

Most of the folks who throw trash away really could give a darn about dumping hazardous waste in the trash. Break a CFL, dump it in the trash along with the mercury, throw away a watch battery or a ni cad battery, throw it in the trash, replace an ionizing smoke detector throw it in the trash. Go some lead to get rid of throw it in the trash.  Its gotta come out the process somewhere.


----------



## begreen (Feb 6, 2020)

Yes, I am thinking rural solid waste vs municipal, but you are rural. 

Peak and woodnomore, what do you think is the best option for municipalities where landfill space is running out?


----------



## EatenByLimestone (Feb 6, 2020)

Make trash disposal fees incredibly expensive.    You'll see packaging change immediately.   Cutting the large cardboard box with blow up plastic bags will make recycling less bulky too.


----------



## woodnomore (Feb 7, 2020)

The New England model. They incinerate but they also have ash monofill. Seattle area, not King County puts their MSW on a train headed for Oregon. The other option is vertical expansion but that only buys a couple more years.


----------



## peakbagger (Feb 7, 2020)

Why reinvent the wheel? Take a look around the world and see what works. Japan and large amounts of Europe install urban waste to energy plants with very aggressive front end recycling. I think Sweden and Denmark actually import sorted trash to keep their plants running. Ideally the facilities are publically built and owned preferably by a special purpose public entity that is openly accountable to the general public. Ideally they are located near urban areas so there is demand for the waste hear via district heating systems. This ups the cycle efficiency considerably.  Unlike past WTE facilities there are plenty of proven emissions technologies that work. Covanta is a private firm that has several successful plants in the US they are key licensees to European tech.

One thing folks forget about is the emissions related to collection and trucking. Stop and go pick up should not be done with diesel, dependent on the distances, battery powered vehicles are getting close to viable and CNG is proven tech for longer hauls. Ideally a CNG plant is built at the WTE plant so the trucks can refill at the plant every time they make a haul to the plant so there isn’t the downtime thereis with batteries. I am not sure on the viable range for trash but on biomass wood power plants, they were sized for a maximum economic range of a 50 mile radius, if the fuel needed to be trucked more than 50 miles the BTU content of the fuel used to truck the fuel exceeded the fuel value of the wood. There will be a similar range for a WTE plant.

The big thing to note is proper waste disposal is going to cost money, and thus there is a profit motive for entrepreneurs who find a cheaper way to dispose of waste. Most people and politicians want waste to disappear and they do not care where it goes. There is always a cheap way to get rid of trash and if  there are not strict regulations on where trash is disposed of, some of its going to end up going the cheap way. Look what happened with a lot of sorted recycling programs that were quite successful in creating clean recycling streams, various private firms stepped in and proposed “zero sort” programs that cost less to the municipalities. The quality of separated waste streams is far lower with higher contaminant levels.  A lot of west coast dirty recycling streams ended up being  loaded into  empty shipping containers that had come over full of goods from the third world. It was labeled as recyclable to sidestep local disposal costs and much of the so called recyclables is just trash. Once those container end up back in the third world they were dumped wherever it was cheapest.  China pushed back and then the containers went elsewhere but even the third world countries are now pushing back.  
The area I live in is lucky, there were many rural towns that all had old unlined dumps. Basically old gravel pits which are the worst place to dump trash due to access to groundwater. The local pulp and paper mill landfill was not much better. The state had put in a very high barrier for new landfills calling out what at the time was very expensive technology. The state made a deal with the mill that they would ease the permitting cycle with the agreement that the local communities could dispose at the mills cost. The new landfill (now 20 years old) was built double lined in a flat bottomed bowl with an underlying glacial till (rocky clay) base that sloped towards one underground exit. It’s a layer design, on top of the till is layer of gravel with a grid type leak detection system in the gravel. On top of the gravel is a HDPE liner system that is field welded. Ever weld is double weld and every inch of it is inspected by third party inspector using an air lance. Another layer of gravel with leak detection is put on top of the secondary liner and then another primary liner is put in top of it. A third party engineering firm routinely checks the leak detection systems and if a leak was detected, the landfill can localize it and seal the leak. This has never been needed. Waste is piled up on top of the liner system with lined berms on the outer edges. The liners are tipped towards leachate wells and the leachate is piped to a local treatment plant. Due to the large amount of pulp mill waste early in its life it didn’t put out much methane but now it does and that is collected by wells. There is a standby flare but the methane is pumped to local papermill to be burned in boiler. The papermill is struggling but there are folks lined up to either put in landfill gas generators or just clean up the gas and reinject it into a local pipeline. There is currently 60 years of life to the permitted landfill. When it is complete it will be hill, the berms running up the sides are the same liner system as the bottom and at some point the top will be sealed with bentonite clay and graded to shed rainwater. At that point any water in the landfill will drain out as leachate and the waste will effectively be inert as there is no groundwater or surface water entering the landfill. Now that the bonds are paid off the cost to dispose of waste just dropped to around $60 per ton. This includes a long term fund to close the landfill out and so called perpetual monitoring.  

The pulp mill closed about 10 years after the landfill was built and prior to that the mills owner needed cash and put the landfill on the market. All sort of shady and not so shady characters showed up to buy it as permitted landfill in New England is a hot property. Some local influential folks discussed this with the state and the state effectively told the mill owner that if it was sold to the local communities the transaction would occur quickly, if it was sold to commercial enterprise it would take many years. That “encouraged” the mill owner to go for the quick cash and the facility has been owned and run by a waste district that is directed by the communities that dump there. 

All the communities have single sort. Most are pretty good at it, the one small city does a less good job. One of the small towns has “pay per bag” with free recycling. The “dump” is actually a transfer station and is only open two days a week, they have volunteer dump wardens that keep an eye on new folks on what goes into the recycling bins and if someone tries to put the wrong stuff in a recycling bin they hear about it.


----------



## woodnomore (Feb 7, 2020)

Recycling has been a lie for years in the US. It was not recycling it was exporting garbage to countries that do not have the environmental regulations the US does. Give the film Plastic China a watch or at least the trailer for the film, it will take away all the recycling warm fuzzies you feel.


----------



## begreen (Feb 7, 2020)

Not disagreeing, but the recycling scene is changing. A lot gets downcycled, but new options are coming online. Showed Plastic China locally. BTW, the majority of the plastic waste in that movie comes from China.  Recycling is improving in some areas. The Seattle area is a leader. We track where it goes. The location depends on the market that week. Everything besides plastics is now recycled in North America here. Plastics go to the highest bidder for the week. Sometimes it is domestic, sometimes it is SE Asia. Eastman is building a refinery that will intake all plastics and create the base products for virgin plastics. When this type plant comes online we will have better domestic markets for plastics.


----------



## peakbagger (Feb 7, 2020)

Actually battery recycling has been quite successful. Most cardboard is extensively recycled, folks forget Bob Kraft of the Patriots was rich before he bought the team and he owns recycled box mills. Aluminum is extensively recycled. Glass is being used for agregate and for road base. Most paper is recycled, long ago I worked for a large tissue mill that had never used virgin pulp it had been around for 50 years and always used recycled fiber. Certain plastics are used for plastic decking and polartech fleece. Clean well sorted recyclables have markets but its lot cheaper to just push it offshore. If the loopholes get plugged than the markets for the products start to work.


----------



## blades (Feb 10, 2020)

won't affect bottom line of MFG, but will take a large bite out of your wallet.


----------



## begreen (Feb 11, 2020)

As producers are made to be more responsible for waste, methods for recycling and the products themselves will improve.









						National plastics draft bill gains momentum amid industry push to tackle pollution
					

Sweeping nationwide plastics legislation is creeping closer to reality with a new draft. But the plan is likely to meet with resistance from recycling industry groups and product manufacturers, who prefer more voluntary solutions.




					www.wastedive.com


----------

