# New house - Creosote dripping - Help



## mcmurray (May 25, 2014)

Firstly, great forum. I've read some threads on creosote so I know a bit already but I'm trying to find a definitive answer to my own problem. Please bear with me as it is quite long winded. 

I recently moved into a new house (3 weeks ago). The house is a new build (unsure of chimney construction). We paid a little extra when it was being built to have a multi-fuel stove fitted. 

On first use of the stove, I burned some small sticks that I had in the shed for over a year. The wood felt dry but after around 15 minutes we discovered creosote dripping onto the top of the stove. The fire burned well but I'm guessing now that the wood was too wet. I let the fire go out to stop the dripping.

I tried a second time a few days later and had the same problem. 

We contacted the guy who installed it and he gave us a Chimney Cleaning Log (CCL) to burn to get rid of the creosote (last night). The CCL burned fine with little to no dripping. I added some logs to the fire later that night. They had a moisture reading of 22% on a moisture meter. Again the dripping started. It wasn't a small amount of creosote either, it was at least 150-200ml.

The installer thinks that we burned loads of wet wood but it was only a small amount of sticks over the first 2 fires. He insists that it will take at least a week of burning to get rid of the dripping, I'm not so sure. 

I don't think it could be this bad from burning such a small amount at the start?

I've attached some photos of the pipe and where the creosote has stained the plaster from dripping. Also added a youtube link to a video showing the problem one night after it had started dripping.

I thought that this sort of stuff shouldn't be leaking on the outside of the pipework? 

In total, the stove has been lit about 5 times.

Any advice from someone more knowledgable than me would be greatly appreciated as I'm starting to get worried? What should I do? 


Thanks in advance,
Ryan


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## fossil (May 25, 2014)

No way any of that should be happening.  The builder, the stove installer, everyone involved in any way with that installation should be brought face to face with it.  Less than dry wood could be a source of creosote, but there's gotta be more than just that going on.  Properly installed, the system should return any liquid formed within the flue all the way back down to the firebox of the appliance.  It would help to know the make & model of the burner, and whatever details you may be able to provide about the flue, including a pic or two from outside the house showing the height and how the thing gets to daylight.  I wouldn't use it again until all these problems are solved.  Welcome to the forums.  Rick


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## tigger (May 25, 2014)

Something is WAY wrong. Do not use until you get that solved.  There is NO way that is from your wood on your first fire.


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## BrotherBart (May 25, 2014)

That moisture isn't coming from the wood. It is cooking out of something and running down the outside of the pipe. Is that black stuff sticky? If not it isn't cresosote.


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## Michael Golden (May 25, 2014)

Maybe it's melting something inside the wall?


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## fossil (May 25, 2014)

In any case, there's something seriously wrong somewhere in the installation, and I'd consider it to be unsafe to operate until everything is fixed.  Rick


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## BrotherBart (May 25, 2014)

For sure. Be dog wide.


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## mcmurray (May 26, 2014)

Thanks everybody for the quick response.


I was lucky enough to have the problem when the builder was at the house across the road during one of the first times I used it. I called him in and showed him the dripping. He said he hadn't seen that happen before. He then phoned the stove installer who gave him the same message he later gave me. That the wood must have been wet.

Thing is, if I go back to the installer he is going to tell me to continue to light it until the moisture goes away.

I was going to buy a couple more of the creosote type logs but I'm not so sure this is going to fix the problem.

I can't see any visible branding on the stove but here is a photo of it and also a photo of the chimney on the house.



Ryan


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## mcmurray (May 26, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> That moisture isn't coming from the wood. It is cooking out of something and running down the outside of the pipe. Is that black stuff sticky? If not it isn't cresosote.




It was sticky when hitting the stove and boiling. I've since started to collect it in a fireproof dish to stop the smell of burning. It has a potent smell and looks like, what I can best describe as used motor oil, only not as thick.


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## blades (May 26, 2014)

You need to take a scramble up in the attic with your camera, sorta looks like the transition unit through the ceiling isn't correct and that the pass through the roof/roofing was not done correctly .  Where the flue passes through the roof there should be a gap that is not filled in( maybe some one filled that with roofing tar), externally that is covered by a cone that matches the roof angle on the bottom and fits tight to the outside of the flue at its top . Just above that should be a rain shield. Both of these joints should be sealed with High temp silicone material.  On a new build that should be an insulated ( double wall at minimum) from the transition unit through the roofing up to the flue cap, with a minimum of 3ft above the peak of anything inside a 10 ft. radius. 
Inside the Attic the transition unit should have a shield to keep insulation away from the flue pass through area. There should be a air gap around this section of flue pipe as well and not tight to the ceiling drywall.  The flue pipes themselves should have the crimped section facing down into the one below it. 
 By the way in my less than adequate opinion that ceiling transistion is incorrect and it looks like there is a 45 deg off set there as well , is this a cathedral ceiling? as it looks awful thick.


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## HotCoals (May 26, 2014)

As the guys say,don't burn till it's inspected . That transition through the drywall looks to be all wrong with my old man eyes. Looks like some sorta offset or something..could be just the pic but I don't even see the trim ring.
Noway is that from what little wood you have burned..it does look like heated tar.
Like said go into the attic and see if the goo is on the pipe near roof.


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## HotCoals (May 26, 2014)

Well the pics you added says more..I guess forget going into the attic for a peak since it is a outside chimney. Still somebody goofed up somewhere.
No way would I burn that stove till I had a pro look it all over. You already have damage that you should not fix or pay to have fixed.
That damage is not from burning off moisture!


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## mcmurray (May 26, 2014)

HotCoals said:


> Well the pics you added says more..I guess forget going into the attic for a peak since it is a outside chimney. Still somebody goofed up somewhere.
> No way would I burn that stove till I had a pro look it all over. You already have damage that you should not fix or pay to have fixed.




Thanks for the advice though. I know little to nothing about this sort of thing so all advice is appreciated.

I'll update this thread as and when I get more info on the problem and possible solution. 

We haven't paid for the stove yet so we're not out of pocket just yet.  The builder has been great, so can't see any issue with him in getting it sorted.


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## Nick Mystic (May 26, 2014)

Judging from the photo of your stove sitting in the alcove it's hard for me to believe you have meant the necessary clearances. I've never seen specs on a stove that would allow such close clearances (assuming your walls have wooden studs and drywall over them). Have you taken any temperature readings with an IR thermometer to see how hot the walls and ceiling inside the alcove are getting when you are burning? I'll bet if you get a good fire going in your stove that in less than an hour your walls are reading way higher than what would be considered safe. As for the dripping material, as others have said it's hard to believe it to be creosote from the description you've given. Please don't burn another fire until you get things checked out by an independent chimney sweep or other professional. Good luck on getting everything taken care of.


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## HotCoals (May 26, 2014)

mcmurray said:


> Thanks for the advice though. I know little to nothing about this sort of thing so all advice is appreciated.
> 
> I'll update this thread as and when I get more info on the problem and possible solution.
> 
> We haven't paid for the stove yet so we're not out of pocket just yet.  The builder has been great, so can't see any issue with him in getting it sorted.



It seems you have certainly have kept your cool and that is very respectable. Me? I would have been flipping out at the first sight of that gunk!
Nick Mystic added some very good observations..heed him.
As they say fire is nothing to play with.


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## mcmurray (May 26, 2014)

Nick Mystic said:


> Judging from the photo of your stove sitting in the alcove it's hard for me to believe you have meant the necessary clearances. I've never seen specs on a stove that would allow such close clearances (assuming your walls have wooden studs and drywall over them). Have you taken any temperature readings with an IR thermometer to see how hot the walls and ceiling inside the alcove are getting when you are burning? I'll bet if you get a good fire going in your stove that in less than an hour your walls are reading way higher than what would be considered safe. As for the dripping material, as others have said it's hard to believe it to be creosote from the description you've given. Please don't burn another fire until you get things checked out by an independent chimney sweep or other professional. Good luck on getting everything taken care of.




I've never measured the heat. The installer has been in business of fireplaces/stoves for as long as I can remember so I just assumed he would know what he was doing. The walls in the alcove are solid brick/block with a rough render of plaster over them as the chimney is 'outside'.




HotCoals said:


> It seems you have certainly have kept your cool and that is very respectable. Me? I would have been flipping out at the first sight of that gunk!




I'm ready to lose my cool but I find with situations like this, it's better to be reserved. People are more willing to help if you're not screaming at them.


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## bluedogz (May 26, 2014)

I'm very curious how this plays out... I know less than zero about building codes and practices outside the US.
I can only agree that that DEFINITELY isn't creosote.  It's an improperly-installed chimney bleeding.

Please keep us up to date on the resolution your builder comes up with.


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## Grisu (May 26, 2014)

I am wondering whether your problem is due to the chimney being new and still moist. What I can imagine is that the heat from the fire drives out the moisture from the mortar. Do you have a steel liner all the way up to the top? Maybe that has a leak somewhere, the smoke mixes with the moisture and then starts dripping down. Getting a pro sweep in who can lower a camera down the chimney to check the liner may help. The moisture problem may also more or less solve itself over the summer when the mortar had time to dry out completely. Still, you don't want a leaky chimney.


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## mcmurray (May 26, 2014)

bluedogz said:


> I'm very curious how this plays out... I know less than zero about building codes and practices outside the US.
> I can only agree that that DEFINITELY isn't creosote.  It's an improperly-installed chimney bleeding.
> 
> Please keep us up to date on the resolution your builder comes up with.




Thanks for your input. 

All these posts have been very helpful. 




Grisu said:


> I am wondering whether your problem is due to the chimney being new and still moist. What I can imagine is that the heat from the fire drives out the moisture from the mortar. Do you have a steel liner all the way up to the top? Maybe that has a leak somewhere, the smoke mixes with the moisture and then starts dripping down. Getting a pro sweep in who can lower a camera down the chimney to check the liner may help. The moisture problem may also more or less solve itself over the summer when the mortar had time to dry out completely. Still, you don't want a leaky chimney.



I'm not sure of the chimney liner. I'll find out when I next speak to the builder. 

The builder's initial thought was that it was water that had collected inside the chimney before the rain cap was fitted.


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## BrotherBart (May 26, 2014)

By the way, very nice house.


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## Hogwildz (May 26, 2014)

Not sure what the hell that pipe is connecting to? Radiation shield? The materials around where the piping goes through the ceiling of the alcove better be non combustible, or else it ain't the required 2" from the pipe.
I wonder if the installer installed the piping upside down and this is running out the seams and down the outside of the piping?
Bet there is more than one thing wrong with that install.

That is stainless and not galvanized pipe right?
The white crap sure looks like the crap that comes off galvanized when it heats up and gets wet.
Unless it is double wall, which some does have s.s. inner and galv outer shells.

Builder is an aasshat if he expects you to continue burning that set up.
New house, all should be under warranty, and builder needs to address and correct the issues, period!


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## begreen (May 26, 2014)

Although we don't have all the same parts and requirements as Ireland I expect there are many similarities. For sure the entire hearth alcove has to be entirely made of non-combustible materials, right? Is the builder in the process of making another house with a similar chimney setup? If so, maybe you can photograph it as it is being built? If not, have the mason explain in detail (and with drawings) how the flue system is constructed.

What is wrong with the mason's and builder's explanation is that a flue system should never leak creosote. Never. If it is leaking, there is a flaw. That is dangerous because creosote is combustible. It should not be pooling up around a hot flue pipe.  Dripping on a hot stove is quite dangerous! The builder's explanation of rain getting down the chimney does not explain how the rain water became a black tarry goo. Any combustion by-product should remain in the flue liner. Also, your wood fire does not look lazy. It's vigor seems to show the wood is reasonably well seasoned.

The flaw can be in the materials or in the way they were installed. A proper flue system should not drip creosote even if you were burning green wood. As to what is wrong, we can only guess because there appears to be no way to visibly inspect the work. It could be a worker didn't mechanically fasten a pipe joint together and it came apart. Or it could be that the pipe was installed inverted (if there are crimp joints at each pipe section.) To resolve this issue I think it may take making an inspection opening on the face of the hearth above the stove. Or, they need to pull the entire liner from the chimney and inspect for flaws. You may need a dis-interested party's professional opinion to back this up. If the builder and mason continue to stonewall, consider hiring a professional chimney sweep or perhaps the local fire marshall to inspect and write up a report.

PS: Was this work inspected by a local inspector before it was sealed up?


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## Grisu (May 26, 2014)

If that is a standard European house construction, the walls consist of cinderblocks, mortar and a layer of plaster on top. For the alcove and chimney, it is bricks, natural stone and mortar. The only combustible material in such walls could be foam insulation or wiring. However, I don't think the builder was that stupid. There are no studs or drywall to be concerned of. 

Nevertheless, the whole setup should be inspected by an independent pro. The chimney is certainly not built properly.


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## BrotherBart (May 26, 2014)

That pipe looks like it is just connected to the tile flue pipe with a collar at the transition from the stove pipe to the masonry chimney terra cotta lining.


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## begreen (May 26, 2014)

If so, maybe an inspection camera will show the flaw?


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## mcmurray (May 26, 2014)

Invaluable info, thanks again.

I don't however, know enough about the stove and chimney setup to fully answer all your questions.

The builder and stove installer are going to call in the next few days to take a look. If they don't find a suitable solution that I'm happy with, I'll get an independent check done.

Will update in a few days.


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## HotCoals (May 26, 2014)

begreen said:


> . Any combustion by-product should remain in the flue liner.


100% concur. There is no dancing around that. Something has to be wrong and  again I don't believe that to be creosote.
Seems like a roofing cement/sealer tar like substance was use somewhere..maybe near the top of the chimney and ran down the outside of the pipes if they are together correctly  or not.


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## BurnIt13 (May 27, 2014)

I'm still getting over my firewood withdrawals.....subscribing as I'd like to see what happens.


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## SteveKG (May 27, 2014)

I'


HotCoals said:


> Something has to be wrong and  again I don't believe that to be creosote.
> Seems like a roofing cement/sealer tar like substance was use somewhere..maybe near the top of the chimney and ran down the outside of the pipes if they are together correctly  or not.



From the first post, I've been having trouble imagining that much "creosote" being produced AND being enough to be dripping down after only a couple very small fires in a brand-new construction. Doesn't make sense. In any case, I would not do any more burning until I knew exactly for certain what that is and what is causing it and where it is coming from. It may turn out to be a simple explanation and an easy fix. Though I still can't imagine what it is. The dripping creosote situations I've witnessed over the years normally involved stovepipe/chimneys that had not been cleaned in a while and had had a number of fires burning green wood. That is not the case here.


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## begreen (May 27, 2014)

Hope the builder didn't use tar sealant in this system.


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## blades (May 28, 2014)

TAr sealant is what it looks like( not much differance between tar and creosote visually)  although I have seen foam insulation melted do the same.


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## BurnIt13 (May 28, 2014)

If it were tar....wouldn't it stink like heck???  Especially when heated?  I imagine that stuff would be pretty flammable too, so if this was dripping on to a 500 degree stove, or onto the chimney and stove pipe I'd be real nervous.

I'm real curious how this even happened.


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## Chimney Smoke (May 28, 2014)

Is it just me or do the pipes look pretty used for a new install also?


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## Nick Mystic (May 28, 2014)

I also think the pipe going through the ceiling of the alcove looks strange. In fact, to me it looks like it six inches at the pipe and then it looks like it connects to some sort of adapter making it larger. It reminds me of a thimble on my basement stove that goes from 6" to a thimble that adapts it to a larger circular clay tile piece that goes into the side of my clay tile flue.


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## mcmurray (May 28, 2014)

Nick Mystic said:


> I also think the pipe going through the ceiling of the alcove looks strange. In fact, to me it looks like it six inches at the pipe and then it looks like it connects to some sort of adapter making it larger. It reminds me of a thimble on my basement stove that goes from 6" to a thimble that adapts it to a larger circular clay tile piece that goes into the side of my clay tile flue.




Well, the above post pretty much sums it up. 



After all your very helpful advice and possible solutions, I was able to do some more research into the installation and have found the reason for the problem. 

There is no flexible steel lining within the flue system. What the installer has used is a rather simple and nasty flue adaptor that sits within the 8 inch terracotta flue. This is obviously not sealed properly and any moisture is leaking out. As the chimney is a larger diameter than the stove pipe, the chimney system is over-rated. This is probably the source of all the moisture due to condensation?

I found a very helpful local company that really know their stuff. They were able to advise me over the phone. They're going to carry out an inspection of the stove installer's work and advise of what further work needs done to make it work as it should. This will probably involve installing a 6 inch steel flue and insulating it within our existing chimney.

Our builder confirmed this when I spoke to him the other day. He pretty much said he didn't know the steel flue was needed and that the stove installer hadn't pushed to install one. I'm guessing they've both taken the cheapest route and hoped it would work fine. 

My main grievance is that I've spoken to the stove installer a couple of times over the past few weeks and he's continued to insist it was wet wood and it would stop after a while. Not once has he mentioned about the steel flue liner. Either he's been trying to fob me off or he really is just a cowboy installer who knows very little about his profession. One thing is for sure, he won't be carrying out the steel flue install as I think he's seriously incompetent and I wouldn't want him in my house ever again.

Once the inspection is carried out, I'll present the report and quote for the further work to the builder and push that he contribute to paying for the work. 

I just have the small issue of the £600 I owe the installer for extras (the granite hearth and stone back wall). I'm not sure where I stand as these are now stained from the dripping but I'll worry about that later.

Here is a link to a PDF I found really helpful the other day: http://cdsf.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/flex-lining-explained.pdf  . This is the company I mentioned earlier who are carrying out the inspection. Page 2 shows what I guessed was the problem I was having. According to that PDF, *'Building Regulations in Northern Ireland state it is necessary to reduce the diameter of the flue to suit the appliance you are fitting, as over sized flues can be unsafe.' * This is something I'll need to find out in more depth to see where I stand in regards to paying for any further flue work. 

I'll update again after the inspection when I've a proper professional report. 



Thanks again,
Ryan


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## kennyp2339 (May 28, 2014)

Ryan, sorry to hear about your whacky install, I read that pdf and then compared the pictures of what you have and the pdf's, essentially the installer took a reducer and turned it upside down to meet the inside of the flu, all I can say is wow. Not only did that illegal connection wreck / stain you hearth and stone back wall, it could have killed you and your family with co gas, absolutely horrible. At the very least send the installer a thank you card explaining how you love the creosote stained hearth area, (didn't know that was an extra option), and the free co gas that leaked into you living space, tell them you fell asleep at night real good breathing that in.   On a high note, glad to see you pulled the trigger and got a real professional in there to do the job right. Good luck!


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## Auzzie Gumtree (May 28, 2014)

Did the stove get passed off by the building inspector? if it did then this will open up another can of worms..... I wouldn't be giving him a penny of the 600 pounds - or at the very most i would subtract any further cost you incur to make the install up-to your total satisfaction. Hope this doesn't put you off burning wood.


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## Grisu (May 28, 2014)

Great to hear that you could identify the problem. It's just sad that the installer did such a poor job. If you have something like a consumer protection office you could ask them about the best way to get recourse from the installer and potentially the builder. Not sure how much the builder is at fault when he was relying on the stove installer for professional guidance.

Seeing that your chimney is pretty tall I would ask the other company whether putting in a slightly undersized liner may be an idea to avoid overdraft. A reduction to 5.5 inches usually still allows good draft and may make your stove more controllable. Does it maybe state a maximum flue length in the stove manual?


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## paul bunion (May 28, 2014)

The install that you got is basically what's called a 'slammer' here.   It refers to the practice of putting an insert into a fireplace without a properly sized flue liner.    Google 'slammer insert' or 'slammer woodstove' and you will find quite a bit of info.


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## Hogwildz (May 29, 2014)

A smaller diameter liner is going to pull a stronger draft.


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## Grisu (May 29, 2014)

Hogwildz said:


> A smaller diameter liner is going to pull a stronger draft.



http://www.woodheat.org/how-chimneys-work.html
"In planning wood heating systems, experienced installers will sometimes choose a chimney that has a smaller inside diameter than the appliance flue collar. This is usually done when the chimney runs inside the house and is very tall. Chimneys that exceed 8 m (about 25 ft.) in height sometimes produce more draft than the appliance needs, so a smaller chimney can be used without any reduction in performance. The decision as to whether the flue size may be reduced from that of the appliance flue collar must be left to an experienced technician."


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## bluedogz (May 29, 2014)

mcmurray said:


> Either he's been trying to fob me off or he really is just a cowboy installer who knows very little about his profession.



Possibly both!

I hope one extra lesson here is that this particular forum is populated with a safety-conscious bunch who generally want to help.  Your attention to detail in finding that building code and a qualified installer will serve you well in your wood-burning career.


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## begreen (May 29, 2014)

So glad to hear that you have made some progress. A properly installed liner that is directly connected to the stove should solve your problems. It looks like the chimney is about 25ft tall. If so, just go with the recommended liner size.


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## begreen (May 29, 2014)

Grisu said:


> http://www.woodheat.org/how-chimneys-work.html
> "In planning wood heating systems, experienced installers will sometimes choose a chimney that has a smaller inside diameter than the appliance flue collar. This is usually done when the chimney runs inside the house and is very tall. Chimneys that exceed 8 m (about 25 ft.) in height sometimes produce more draft than the appliance needs, so a smaller chimney can be used without any reduction in performance. The decision as to whether the flue size may be reduced from that of the appliance flue collar must be left to an experienced technician."



A smaller diameter flue will draft stronger, but it will move less volume of air.


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## HotCoals (May 29, 2014)

begreen said:


> A smaller diameter flue will draft stronger, but it will move less volume of air.


I concur. A big door on a stove needs a bigger flue generally.


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## Grisu (May 29, 2014)

begreen said:


> A smaller diameter flue will draft stronger, but it will move less volume of air.



I use the word "draft" in the sense of flue gas flow rate which is measured in volume per time (m3/s). Thus, less volume of air will mean less draft. Maybe that's incorrect wording on my part. Is there a better definition of draft and should I use "flue gas flow rate" in the future?


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## HotCoals (May 29, 2014)

mcmurray said:


> What the installer has used is a rather simple and nasty flue adaptor that sits within the 8 inch terracotta flue. This is obviously not sealed properly and any moisture is leaking out.


Surely it's wrong but I still doubt the mess is from creosote and moisture though i guess it could be.
This whole setup was new so it's not like there would have been a messy chimney to begin with.


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## mcmurray (May 29, 2014)

HotCoals said:


> Surely it's wrong but I still doubt the mess is from creosote and moisture though i guess it could be.
> This whole setup was new so it's not like there would have been a messy chimney to begin with.



Could it not just be condensation from the the times I've lit the stove and the chimney not drawing as it should? Coupled with the chimney being new and possibly already having moisture in it? 

I'll be better informed after the inspection.


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## SteveKG (May 29, 2014)

Well, anything's possible. I've never seen such happen so quickly, but I haven't seen everything. At this point, any further speculation is simple that: just speculation. It will be interesting to learn the outcome of the inspection. I am predicting the inspection will provide the answer to all.


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## HotCoals (May 29, 2014)

mcmurray said:


> Could it not just be condensation from the the times I've lit the stove and the chimney not drawing as it should?


Maybe if the wood was from creosote treated rail road ties.

When the fire was going and you opened the door did smoke come into the room..I ask that because that would be somewhat of a indicator of how good the draft was.

What were the temps outside when you had fire in the stove?

I agree with Steve above . Hope things get right for you and certainly not at your expense.


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## laynes69 (May 29, 2014)

I'm willing to bet condensation. The first year we had our new furnace, the chimney was 32' tall and the liner was oversized. Everyday I was removing a gallon and a half of water from the cleanout of the chimney. If I would forget, it would leak out of the cleanout and into the house. After putting in a 5.5" liner our problem dissapeared. It's suprising how much liquid can condense in such short amount of time.


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## lazeedan (May 29, 2014)

I just wanted to say good luck getting that all fixed. I hope you can get the responsible parties to pay up. I wanted to see how this turns out.


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## Hogwildz (May 30, 2014)

HotCoals said:


> I concur. A big door on a stove needs a bigger flue generally.


That comment makes no GD sense.
There are many sized stoves with many sized doors, but mainly run on 6 or 8 inch flues.
Most stoves are burnt with the door closed, so door size means nothing in factoring draft.


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## Hogwildz (May 30, 2014)

laynes69 said:


> I'm willing to bet condensation. The first year we had our new furnace, the chimney was 32' tall and the liner was oversized. Everyday I was removing a gallon and a half of water from the cleanout of the chimney. If I would forget, it would leak out of the cleanout and into the house. After putting in a 5.5" liner our problem dissapeared. It's suprising how much liquid can condense in such short amount of time.


Great post.
First hand account of smaller sizing pulling a stronger draft.


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## bluedogz (May 30, 2014)

Hogwildz said:


> That comment makes no GD sense.



Go on, Hogz... tell us how ya really feel....


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## Hogwildz (May 30, 2014)

No sense in it.
Too many know it alls giving their input when maybe they shouldn't.
No time for that, going for a ride, F it.


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## HotCoals (May 30, 2014)

Hogwildz said:


> That comment makes no GD sense.
> There are many sized stoves with many sized doors, but mainly run on 6 or 8 inch flues.
> Most stoves are burnt with the door closed, so door size means nothing in factoring draft.


It makes sense that a bigger flue makes it so less (hopefully none)smoke will come into the room with the door open.
You should seek help .


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## bholler (May 30, 2014)

I agree that flue size has nothing to do with door size but smaller pipe does not mean more draft either if you have good draft it will increase the velocity but draft on a draft meter will not change.  And if you have bad draft it wont matter if the flue is big or small you will still have bad draft.


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## bholler (May 30, 2014)

Hogwildz said:


> Too many know it alls giving their input when maybe they shouldn't.



the same could be said about you at times


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## BrotherBart (May 30, 2014)

OK. Let's leave it there. Wanna talk to each other and not the OP, use the PM/Conversation system.


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## blades (May 31, 2014)

To the op, I have seen this type of problem on new installations of masonry flues  many times over the years. It is a moisture problem of the new construction, in most cases requiring additional sealing of the external portion of the chimney due to moisture penetration of the brick and mortar.  This is in-addition to the incorrect install of the internal flue portion. The liner will resolve most of this, but not all, you still need to have the mortar/bricks( the portion exposed to the elements) externally sealed, several products available simple spray on application. Your builder should be held accountable for this.  Note this same problem at times shows up on older construction as well.
Also that portion of the ceiling material that is stained will need replacement. The hard surfaces may or may not be cleanable, again this would be a builder responsibility imho.


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## TradEddie (May 31, 2014)

OP, do you have the stove installation manual? The manual should state the required liner/flue size, and simplify your dealings with the installer if he didn't follow the requirements.
If you don't have it, most are available online. 
Also, from personal experience, take a good read of that manual, people in UK/Ireland are not familiar with burning wood in stoves, and try to run them like fireplaces, which is far from the best way. Lots of good advice here about proper burning practices.

TE


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## Woodman37 (May 31, 2014)

Some of that looks like water marks almost. I would check around the chimney for leaks and definitely not use that stove any more not worth the risk of burning down your home.


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## mcmurray (Jun 1, 2014)

TradEddie said:


> OP, do you have the stove installation manual? The manual should state the required liner/flue size, and simplify your dealings with the installer if he didn't follow the requirements.
> If you don't have it, most are available online.
> Also, from personal experience, take a good read of that manual, people in UK/Ireland are not familiar with burning wood in stoves, and try to run them like fireplaces, which is far from the best way. Lots of good advice here about proper burning practices.
> 
> TE



Small update.


I went back to the stove supplier/installer yesterday. I got the attached sheet from the inside the same model in the showroom. He told me this is all that came in it. I'm guessing it's a Chinese stove. I've Googled all the numbers on the sheet as well as the the number I found on the stove but can't find any info on it. So I'm unable to find out what flue size the manufacturer recommends. 

The guy showed me the adaptor he has used. It looks like this: (not the exact same, and not from this site, but visually looks similar) http://www.ngbell.com/products/Schi...aptor-5"--%2d-8"-Vitreous-Enamel-to-Clay.html

I asked why we hadn't been recommended a flexible steel liner when we spoke to him at the start, before the stove was fitted. He said that at least 50% of his customers didn't use one. Also stated that 95% of his customers that don't have a liner don't have the problem I'm having. 

He's adamant that I burned wet fuel and that all this moisture is from that. Insists that I have tar in the chimney and it will need broken down (by lighting more creosote type logs).

I did my best to maintain a civil conversation but I wasn't getting anywhere with him. I told him I was having someone else inspect his work and that I would update him after that, then I left. 

Hopefully I'll have more info on the cost of the follow up work from a few companies this week. 


Ryan


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## bluedogz (Jun 1, 2014)

mcmurray said:


> The guy showed me the adaptor he has used. It looks like this: (not the exact same, and not from this site, but visually looks similar) http://www.ngbell.com/products/Schiedel-Rite%2dVent-Flue-Adaptor-5"--%2d-8"-Vitreous-Enamel-to-Clay.html
> 
> I asked why we hadn't been recommended a flexible steel liner when we spoke to him at the start, before the stove was fitted. He said that at least 50% of his customers didn't use one. Also stated that 95% of his customers that don't have a liner don't have the problem I'm having.
> 
> He's adamant that I burned wet fuel and that all this moisture is from that. Insists that I have tar in the chimney and it will need broken down (by lighting more creosote type logs).



Despite differences between building codes between nations, I have no doubt there are clear building codes in N. Ireland that will rule here.  So the only question this builder needs to answer is, "Did you follow the law or not?"  That might simplify the discussion.


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## mcmurray (Jun 1, 2014)

bluedogz said:


> Despite differences between building codes between nations, I have no doubt there are clear building codes in N. Ireland that will rule here.  So the only question this builder needs to answer is, "Did you follow the law or not?"  That might simplify the discussion.



Here is a link to building regulations for NI: http://www.thestoveyard.com/files/building-reg-ni.pdf

On page 38, section 3.4 it states: 
"A flue pipe should have the same diameter or equivalent cross-sectional area as that of the appliance flue outlet and should be not smaller than the size recommended by the appliance manufacturer."

Would this be grounds to challenge the installation?


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## bluedogz (Jun 1, 2014)

mcmurray said:


> Here is a link to building regulations for NI: http://www.thestoveyard.com/files/building-reg-ni.pdf
> 
> On page 38, section 3.4 it states:
> "A flue pipe should have the same diameter or equivalent cross-sectional area as that of the appliance flue outlet and should be not smaller than the size recommended by the appliance manufacturer."
> ...



In MY OPINION (and mine alone), I'd say yes.  It is the installer's responsibility to document compliance with such rules, which here in the US would take the form of the stove manual.

Also, in your link, p. 33, s.2.46: 
_A flue should be checked at completion to ensure that it is free from obstructions, satisfactorily gas-tight and constructed with materials and components of sizes that suit the intended application. _

So your builder has some splainin' to do.


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## Grisu (Jun 1, 2014)

Your stove looks like this one: http://www.mullendomestic.com/Tully-Carron-Kinmore-7kw-Multi-Fuel-Stove-Kinmore-arizona-denver

Maybe you can go through them to find a manual. An installation without one is incomplete anyway, IMHO.


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## mcmurray (Jun 1, 2014)

Grisu said:


> Your stove looks like this one: http://www.mullendomestic.com/Tully-Carron-Kinmore-7kw-Multi-Fuel-Stove-Kinmore-arizona-denver
> 
> Maybe you can go through them to find a manual. An installation without one is incomplete anyway, IMHO.



Brilliant, thanks. I've just spent the past 30 minutes searching Alibaba.com for something that looks like ours. This should give me something to work from.


At this stage I know what the issue is, but what I'm ultimately trying to find out, is if the builder should be footing the bill for the flue liner installation. It may be time to speak to our solicitor to get a legal input.


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## HotCoals (Jun 1, 2014)

Well in your situation I doubt that you have to have a liner.  Unless it is code for your area. I mean yours is a new installation with with clay tile right?


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## mcmurray (Jun 1, 2014)

HotCoals said:


> Well in your situation I doubt that you have to have a liner.  I mean yours is a new installation with with clay tile right?



Yes, new build with 8" clay tile.


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## Hogwildz (Jun 1, 2014)

If he used a 5" to 8" adapter, that is a fairly wide spread of difference in volume change, and would not float in my house.
If that adapter is not completely tight around the clue tile, again, that would be a no go with me.
If the adapter only meets up the the tile, and the four corners of the tile overhang outside the round adapter, my bet would be there is your problem with the crap running down outside.
Is the clay tile round, square, rectangular?

Who supplied the stove? They know nothing about the stove they sold you? Very sad if a vendor don't know crap about what they are selling, and also says a lot, or actually very little about the vendor.
Even if it was from burning wet wood, that creo should run down into the stove, not all around the outside, as due to a poor direct connect install.
What is the size of the outlet of the stove?

And I stick by my opinion, that a larger flue (oversized)has much more of a chance of lazy draft, then the proper size or even slightly smaller flue. Yes, larger may allow more volume, but the proper size or smaller will have more velocity. Think of a vacuum, what happens when you put a smaller diameter pipe on it..... is sucks harder. Same as car exhaust. I remember when huge size/diameter pipes were popular, but also caused issues due to lack of pressure.

Based on the limited info available, it appears with the properly sized liner from stove outlet to top, and properly installed and terminated, your issue may be solved.
Going from 5" or 6" to 8" is a problem from the start.

Here is what they should have installed from the start.
http://www.ngbell.com/products/Schi...x-Flexible-Flue-Liner-150mm-9-Metre-Roll.html
Or they could have saved the cost of the chimney & clay liner and done a chase with class A.


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## Mt Bob (Jun 1, 2014)

Have to agree with hog,as I had that happen years ago back in MD.6 to 8 stove pipe,small stove,even had water in stove after cool down.Changed pipe to all 6" and problem went away.


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## bholler (Jun 1, 2014)

Don't get me wrong i absolutely agree that a properly sized flue will work much better.  Over sized will cool quicker and have more condensation for sure.  But draft is a pressure measurement caused my the temperature difference between the inside and the outside.   Changing flue size will not change that pressure.   It will do many other things that when sized properly are very beneficial.   Also when it comes to condensation insulation is as important if not more so that a properly sized flue


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## ihookem (Jun 1, 2014)

As a carpenter that patches lots of drywall, it looks like water damage. I could easily be wrong cause it happened before though. A few posts back said if it is a flue that came apart it may be condensating with the cold air mixing with hot chimney smoke. The stained water will drip down the chimny , I assume and come through right were the plaster is stained.


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## jotul? (Jun 1, 2014)

Am I understanding correctly from your photos that the chimney is constructed almost the way a traditional fireplace chimney is constructed, but what would be the firebox, damper, and smoke shelf area in a traditional fireplace is now basically a masonry cube to hold a wood stove? If so, I'm guessing that one of the bricklayers on the job got lazy and used some self adhesive rubber flashing and/or water proofing mastic in the masonry crossover that is supporting the flue liner and the rest of the chimney. In Pennsylvania at least, chimney code calls for a solid masonry chimney of al least 8 inches of fired masonry material (brick) with a one inch air space surrounding a terra cotta or steel chimney liner. That forms the core of the chimney. Outside of that the mason can use block or other unfired masonry to fill in the size specs of the chimney until the face brick are applied around the outside. In your construction, I see how they attached the flue pipe the the terra cotta, but there has to be something crossing over the alcove like pre stressed concrete lentils or angle iron to support the core of the chimney as it was being constructed. If there is an air gap the whole way up the chimney between the terra cotta and the fill brick the flashing/mastic could be anywhere and running down the terra cotta as it melts. Or someone threw some flashing in there on top of the masonry crossover to try to guarantee that no water could penetrate the crossover thus ruining the plaster for at least a year or however long the new construction guarantee is in Ireland. Just a guess, but I've seen that kind of stuff on job sites.


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## bholler (Jun 1, 2014)

Were did you get the 8" figure?  I have only ever seen the requirement of 4" nominal and i have never seen a requirement of 1" air gap either what code are you referencing?


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## jotul? (Jun 1, 2014)

My mistake on the 8" figure. Thinking of length not width. Should have said "one brick" instead of trying to sound smart. www.gov.allconet.org has the rest of the masonry chimney specs. I tried to cut and paste the site but can't get it to work for some reason, also I hadn't seen that the problem had been resolved. I just joined a couple of days ago and didn't realize the thread ran over more than one page.


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## TradEddie (Jun 1, 2014)

There is really no point in quoting US building codes for a UK installation.

On the other hand, I find it hard to believe that a stove comes with no instruction or installation manual. Whether the flue is the correct size or not isn't directly relevant when the flue has not been constructed/connected to be airtight. Recently a plumber in the ROI went to prison for manslaughter when he failed to properly assemble a gas appliance flue, causing someone to die of carbon monoxide. Find that article and bring it to your installer, or you could be the next victim.

TE


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## bobdog2o02 (Jun 1, 2014)

TradEddie said:


> There is really no point in quoting US building codes for a UK installation.
> 
> On the other hand, I find it hard to believe that a stove comes with no instruction or installation manual. Whether the flue is the correct size or not isn't directly relevant when the flue has not been constructed/connected to be airtight. Recently a plumber in the ROI went to prison for manslaughter when he failed to properly assemble a gas appliance flue, causing someone to die of carbon monoxide. Find that article and bring it to your installer, or you could be the next victim.
> 
> TE



Items like this are why the IBC has merit.


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## Owen1508 (Jun 3, 2014)

I have run into to what maybe similar situations before.  Not sure if this is what has happened but I have seen poor installers run say a 6" pipe into a larger class "a" chimney (8") and just stop the 6"  just inside the chimney and not run it all the way to the top. They make the outside connection look pretty but inside the moisture does not funnel into the 6" from the 8" class "a" and builds on the outside.  my best drawing above.  Bear with me I'm not great on these computer images.

In the case of venting into a masonary chimney it could be similar as in the "drawing below".  Where as the moisture is not catching the pipe and leaking where the pipe connects to the flue (yellow arrow)  Just an opinion.


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## HotCoals (Jun 3, 2014)

I'm thinking Owen is on to it.


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## Owen1508 (Jun 3, 2014)

After re reading some of the previous posts I just scanned over it seems this was already thrown out there by the OP and Hog.  I hope you are able to  remedy this issue and recoup any loses.


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## clemsonfor (Jun 3, 2014)

Wow this looks like a disaster. I am skipping to the end and hope to see its sorted out. I agree with everything on this first page!


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## Owen1508 (Jun 3, 2014)

Thanks for the help with the pictures....I'm a little (big) bit of a novice on that


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## begreen (Jun 3, 2014)

I just changed them to thumbnails Owen. You are welcome to help anytime. Don't be afraid to ask.


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## bholler (Jun 3, 2014)

i agree with owen i would say it is a combination of a poor connection at the bottom like he said and an over sized and uninsulated flue causing excess condensation.


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## TradEddie (Jun 4, 2014)

bobdog2o02 said:


> Items like this are why the IBC has merit.



You do realize that the IBC is a bit like the "World Series"?  It isn't an international code, despite its name it only applies in the USA, and not even in all states. 

Back to the OP, that diagram of the "funnel" inserted into the flue instead of around the outside is exactly what I imagine to be the source of the dirty water. Why there is so much moisture is a separate issue, but I'm sure the OP will confirm that Northern Ireland has no shortage of moisture...

TE


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## tigger (Jun 4, 2014)

This is what is so great about this site.  Here are a group up people from all over the world trying to help someone who none of us know.  We all share a common interest.  None of us are profiting from this.  We are all concerned for this guy and his family and having things done the right way!  All from a wood cutting/burning/stove background.....  Who would have guessed that people with this common thread would be so open and giving.  Its a great site. And its a great site because of everyone on it.


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## mcmurray (Oct 9, 2014)

Back with some good news.

I'm pleased to say after a lot of stress and asking a lot of questions, our stove is now working as it should.

The flexible liner was installed and insulated. A stainless steel plate was also fitted at the top of the alcove/opening. The offending adaptor was also removed.

After some discussion with the builder and installer, they agreed that I should have been offered this level of install from the start. But as it wasn't required by law here, that they hadn't done anything wrong by just using an adaptor. On the guidance of a solicitor, I regretfully accepted that this was the case and we came to an agreement on the cost of fixing the issue properly.

I had to pay for the materials at £400 ($650) and the labour (2 men for 1 day) was covered by the installer. This was considerably cheaper than any independent quote to fix the problem, with the cheapest coming in at double that.

I've been burning wood for over 2 weeks now with everything working as it should.

I just wanted to stop by to thank you all again for the free advice and support. You really have a great forum here and I owe you all a beer. 


Ryan.


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## fossil (Oct 9, 2014)

Excellent.  Rick


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## BrotherBart (Oct 9, 2014)

Good to hear. Thanks for the update.


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## Owen1508 (Oct 9, 2014)

That's great


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## begreen (Oct 9, 2014)

Great news, and thanks for the Guinness.


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## HotCoals (Oct 9, 2014)

Good to hear and just goes to show mistakes/bad judgement can be made by those we pay our money to.


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## 240onts (Oct 9, 2014)

Just a thought...maybe the pipes were connected wrong. Instead of outside / inside they are inside outside, I've seen it before but that's a LOT of creosote. No way any roofing tar etc. bled in being a brick chimney. Did the guy that installed the liner use any kind of "sealant" that would cause that?


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## NHcpa (Oct 9, 2014)

Just stumbled on this thread and I have the same hearth setup with a horizontal outlet..but internal chimney. Curious what design this is?


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## Hogwildz (Oct 10, 2014)

mcmurray said:


> Back with some good news.
> 
> I'm pleased to say after a lot of stress and asking a lot of questions, our stove is now working as it should.
> 
> ...


Schweet!
Glad ya got it worked out, and at a decent price. You got a good deal with the liner. And it should burn much better.
Enjoy!


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## Hogwildz (Oct 10, 2014)

NHcpa said:


> View attachment 140800
> View attachment 140801
> 
> Just stumbled on this thread and I have the same hearth setup with a horizontal outlet..but internal chimney. Curious what design this is?


You have a T set up, not sure why. Can the stove be moved back and piping ran straight up to the liner?
What is the materials the liner is going through? Looks like lath & plaster? Any wood or other combustibles is a no go in that area.


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## NHcpa (Oct 10, 2014)

Hogwildz said:


> You have a T set up, not sure why. Can the stove be moved back and piping ran straight up to the liner?
> What is the materials the liner is going through? Looks like lath & plaster? Any wood or other combustibles is a no go in that area.


Piping for the stove enters the hearth from the top right. The hole for the chimney is a combination mortar and steel bar reinforcement. The chimney actualy ends at the top right and not behind the hearth rear wall.  There is a huge base to this whole thing in the basement.  The T was just recently installed because I had a liner put in to aid in draft and cleaning.  It's an odd setup and surprised to find a similar one in this thread.


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## Osagebndr (Oct 10, 2014)

This thread is a prime example of how this site and the people who are involved in it can help in almost any situation . Glad to say I joined and have learned so much from it myself


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## hcar84 (Jan 6, 2015)

mcmurray said:


> Back with some good news.
> 
> I'm pleased to say after a lot of stress and asking a lot of questions, our stove is now working as it should.
> 
> ...



Hi Ryan

Sorry for hijacking your post but I'm having a very similar problem to you; just moved into a new build house and have a major issue with creosote running down the outside of the chimney which incidentally was install with a clay rather than steel flue liner. I also live in Northern Ireland (County Down) just wondering are you able to say who installed your stove? I'm being fobbed off with the excuse that I'm burning the wrong fuel and have been told that there is only one supplier of genuine kiln dried wood in the whole of Northern Ireland! Something doesn't sit right with me about the whole thing.
Were you advised to burn a high heat fire to get rid of the creosote? Or use a chimney sweep?

Many thanks
Rachel


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## mcmurray (Jan 6, 2015)

hcar84 said:


> Hi Ryan
> 
> Sorry for hijacking your post but I'm having a very similar problem to you; just moved into a new build house and have a major issue with creosote running down the outside of the chimney which incidentally was install with a clay rather than steel flue liner. I also live in Northern Ireland (County Down) just wondering are you able to say who installed your stove? I'm being fobbed off with the excuse that I'm burning the wrong fuel and have been told that there is only one supplier of genuine kiln dried wood in the whole of Northern Ireland! Something doesn't sit right with me about the whole thing.
> Were you advised to burn a high heat fire to get rid of the creosote? Or use a chimney sweep?
> ...



Hi Rachel,

I'll send you the name of the installer via private message.


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## Owen1508 (Jan 6, 2015)

mcmurray said:


> Hi Rachel,
> 
> I'll send you the name of the installer via private message.



And so the cycle of knowledge continues


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