# What Caliber is This?



## Hawkeye (Jan 28, 2013)

Found this in a split while splitting oak yesterday.


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## Backwoods Savage (Jan 28, 2013)

Big.


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## Ralphie Boy (Jan 28, 2013)

.35 to .40 maybe as big as .44 Any one around there have a .44 40 WCF? But I think .35


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## BobUrban (Jan 28, 2013)

Can I see a copper jacket?  If not it may be a slug!


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## nrford (Jan 28, 2013)

Odds are .30


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## Jags (Jan 28, 2013)

30/30


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## Hawkeye (Jan 28, 2013)

We've been debating at work.  It came from an oak tree that we cut down along our railroad tracks, and then I bucked and split over the weekend.  We cut this one down near a large timber.

We're in Iowa - so not much high-power shooting but more shotgun slugs and blackpowder.  When I first saw it I thought it was a shotgun slug.  But then I cut it out and it was too small.  It was very deformed.  I was thinking .50 cal blackpowder, but this thing went into the wood about 6".  A muzzleloader wouldn't do that!

And yes - copper jacket - which still could be a sabot from a blackpowder or rifled shotgun barrel........anyone a forensics expert????


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## Boog (Jan 28, 2013)

I shot this tree with my 44mag shooting at a deer last December, alas, there was nothing left to find, and the deer ran off unscathed!


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## Ralphie Boy (Jan 28, 2013)

I still think it's a lower velocity round like .35 Rem. Maybe 30/30 WIn. I think a higher velocity would destroyed its self unless it struct the tree from a long way out. How deep into the tree did you find the round?


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## clemsonfor (Jan 28, 2013)

looks like .30 to me? A 50 cal is a half an inch in diameter?? I doubt many folks have Barrets in your neck of the woods let alone the country so that means if its 50 cal its most likely muzzleloader. I see a copper jacket as well. Dig it out see if you can see evidence of a round tip or pointed to tell you if its .30/30 or other .30 cal. but its most likely  all deformed.


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## fabsroman (Jan 28, 2013)

Hawkeye said:


> We've been debating at work. It came from an oak tree that we cut down along our railroad tracks, and then I bucked and split over the weekend. We cut this one down near a large timber.
> 
> We're in Iowa - so not much high-power shooting but more shotgun slugs and blackpowder. When I first saw it I thought it was a shotgun slug. But then I cut it out and it was too small. It was very deformed. I was thinking .50 cal blackpowder, but this thing went into the wood about 6". A muzzleloader wouldn't do that!
> 
> And yes - copper jacket - which still could be a sabot from a blackpowder or rifled shotgun barrel........anyone a forensics expert????


 
Is there any rifling marks on the bullet? If not, most likely a Remington Copper Solid sabot or Barnes Expander sabot from a shotgun or muzzleloader. I use the Barnes exclusively in my muzzleloader and most of the time in my slug gun. I could go and take the micrometers to them to find out the exact caliber if you need me too.

Was using a tree to hang targets on several years ago in a quarry. As I was shooting at it with my .300 Win Mag, I was noticing puffs of dirt coming up. Thought I was missing the entire target and tree and hitting the quarry's dirt wall behind the tree. Went down to take a look and the Barnes moly coated X Bullets were going right through the tree and the shots were really well placed in the middle of the target. I was somewhat shocked that the bullets were going through the tree.


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## BobUrban (Jan 29, 2013)

Are rifles legal to hunt with in Iowa?  Not that it would be the end all of the discussion but if it is from a hunter I would guess jacketed or copper sabot from a front end loader.  If rifles are legal then there is a miriad of 30cal. rounds it could be and gently digging it out would add evidence to help decifer the mystery


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## firefighterjake (Jan 29, 2013)

Boog Powell said:


> I shot this tree with my 44mag shooting at a deer last December, alas, there was nothing left to find, and the deer ran off unscathed!
> 
> 
> View attachment 91381


 
The deer got away, but you did get yourself a nice looking tree . . . you should mount that over your fireplace . . . or in the fireplace.


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## Bocefus78 (Jan 29, 2013)

. Its definetly no copper solid or barnes because anyone who has shot them and inspected them afterwards,  knows that they open up every time like a banna peel! My vote is a .50 cal muzzleloader shooting the powerbelt bullet. Plastic jacket around a .45 cal bullet. BTW. Put one is your pocket for the day and walk around. It wont be jacketed anymore. They should be called thinly plated. What a crappy bullet.


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## gzecc (Jan 29, 2013)

Boog Powell said:


> I shot this tree with my 44mag shooting at a deer last December, alas, there was nothing left to find, and the deer ran off unscathed!
> 
> 
> View attachment 91381


Holy cow! Is that the exit side? Maybe a new way to split wood? How much are those bullets?
How far away were you from the tree? 44 mag is a hand gun right?


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## Adios Pantalones (Jan 29, 2013)

Bocefus78 said:


> . Its definetly no copper solid or barnes because anyone who has shot them and inspected them afterwards, knows that they open up every time like a banna peel! My vote is a .50 cal muzzleloader shooting the powerbelt bullet. Plastic jacket around a .45 cal bullet. BTW. Put one is your pocket for the day and walk around. It wont be jacketed anymore. They should be called thinly plated. What a crappy bullet.


 
I disagree. I have a board with a jacketed 30-06 perfect cross section in it. My dad made a cabinet and put it in the front door when he found the board.


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## fabsroman (Jan 29, 2013)

Bocefus78 said:


> . Its definetly no copper solid or barnes because anyone who has shot them and inspected them afterwards, knows that they open up every time like a banna peel! My vote is a .50 cal muzzleloader shooting the powerbelt bullet. Plastic jacket around a .45 cal bullet. BTW. Put one is your pocket for the day and walk around. It wont be jacketed anymore. They should be called thinly plated. What a crappy bullet.


 
The expansion depends on a lot of things, and usually the expansion occurs when the bullet hits soft tissue. I have retrieved all of two Barnes Expanders from deer when they got lodged in a shoulder, and while they were fully expanded it was because the deer was quartering away and the bullet went in from the mid point of the deer and traveled to the front shoulder. The expansion of a bullet in wood might be a lot different, especially if the wood is dense. The wood will not move out of the way as easily as soft tissue.

Might have to figure a Barnes Expander into a log and then go digging to see what it looks like. However, not that bored yet today.


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## Adios Pantalones (Jan 29, 2013)

Bullet in the door of my cabinet.


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## Badfish740 (Jan 29, 2013)

That is freaking cool!


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## Adios Pantalones (Jan 29, 2013)

I have another on in my bathroom door, but no metal jacket, and not a perfect profile like this one


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## Adios Pantalones (Jan 29, 2013)

Like the op- you can see where the tree healed around it


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## fabsroman (Jan 29, 2013)

What is hard to believe with that bullet cross section is that there is not damage wood from where the bullet came into the tree. Might have been a very shallow "wound channel", but I would have thought there would have been some destroyed wood behing the bullet's base, but it appears that is not the case. Just awesome to see these bullets in the wood. Now, I want to go shoot up a tree and cut it down 20 years later to find the bullets. Wonder if they would move upward with the growth of the tree.


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## Adios Pantalones (Jan 29, 2013)

Fabio- the bullet was in myomere of wood a long time, so that it was well healed. Here's a backup pic


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## fabsroman (Jan 29, 2013)

Adios Pantalones said:


> Fabio- the bullet was in myomere of wood a long time, so that it was well healed. Here's a backup pic
> 
> View attachment 91484


 
I'm not disputing that the bullet was in the tree. That and the pics are awesome, and the backup pic is even better where you can see the dark wood around the bullet. Truly awesome. Thing is, my brain is always working and wondering. For instance, I am wondering why we see no wound channel trailing behind the bullet like what is left in balistic gelatin. Wondering if the tree was able to repair the wound channel somehow. Also wondering if maybe the bullet entered the tree in some weird way and came to lay sideways at the end of its travels and the wound channel would have actually be directly behind the board. Wondering if maybe the bullet barely entered the tree, and hence the reason for there being no disruption of wood grain behind the base of the bullet. I just find it fascinating that the bullet got there and we cannot see the way it traveled through the wood to get there.


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## Jags (Jan 30, 2013)

A 30 cal is not going to have deep penetration in most trees.  That bullet probably made it to just "submerged".  Years of growth covered it up and bada bing...you got bullet in tree with no trace marks.


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## Boog (Jan 30, 2013)

gzecc said:


> Holy cow! Is that the exit side? Maybe a new way to split wood? How much are those bullets?
> How far away were you from the tree? 44 mag is a hand gun right?


 
Posted this thread about it earlier:  https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/hunting-timber-with-my-taurus-44-mag.99828/#post-1275973

I was about 60 yards from the tree.  I reload so my costs are different, but good 44 mag ammo runs north of a $1.00/rnd now.


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## Highbeam (Jan 30, 2013)

Depth of old bullet in tree can be a result of energy in the traveling bullet or time spent in the trunk while the tree grows around it.

Love the bullet in the cabinet board.


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## fabsroman (Jan 30, 2013)

Jags said:


> A 30 cal is not going to have deep penetration in most trees. That bullet probably made it to just "submerged". Years of growth covered it up and bada bing...you got bullet in tree with no trace marks.


 
I'll disagree with that. Maybe a 30 caliber bullet from a 30/30 will not have much penetration, but one from a .300 Win Mag or a .300 Remington Ultra Mag will have a ton of penetration. Unless of course the bullets are not built for penetration, but you don't see that much in 30 caliber. Definitely find it in .22 caliber bullets for varmints and possibly all the way up to .25 caliber.


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## Jags (Jan 30, 2013)

fabsroman said:


> I'll disagree with that. Maybe a 30 caliber bullet from a 30/30 will not have much penetration, but one from a .300 Win Mag or a .300 Remington Ultra Mag will have a ton of penetration.


 
I would venture a bet that _that_ bullet in _that_ tree happened before ultra and win mag were around.
Winmag (1963)
Ultra (1999)

Alot of old hunters used the 30/30 round because it works well in the bush.  Very common when rifles were allowed in the midwest area.


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## fabsroman (Jan 30, 2013)

Jags said:


> I would venture a bet that _that_ bullet in _that_ tree happened before ultra and win mag were around.
> Winmag (1963)
> Ultra (1999)
> 
> Alot of old hunters used the 30/30 round because it works well in the bush. Very common when rifles were allowed in the midwest area.


 
I believe the 30/30 is still the most common rifle around.

Alright, so it definitely was not a .300 Remington Ultra Mag and possibly not a .300 Win Mag, but what about a .30-06? Believe that came out in 1906.


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## Delta-T (Jan 30, 2013)

we also have no idea of knowing how far any particular round was fired before entering the tree. you shoot at something and miss...bullets just keep on going till they find a home...that home could be pretty far down range depending on the landscape and whatnot....just sayin.


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## Jags (Jan 30, 2013)

30/06 is a really nice round, but not like it will penetrate 10 inches into a healthy tree (and it probably would have distorted the bullet far more).

And Delta raises a valid point as well.


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## fabsroman (Jan 30, 2013)

Delta-T said:


> we also have no idea of knowing how far any particular round was fired before entering the tree. you shoot at something and miss...bullets just keep on going till they find a home...that home could be pretty far down range depending on the landscape and whatnot....just sayin.


 
And I completely agree about that too. That is one of the things I was wondering about. Could the bullet have traversed a mile and found its resting place in the outer most layer of a tree? Quite possible.


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## Jags (Jan 30, 2013)

fabsroman said:


> And I completely agree about that too. That is one of the things I was wondering about. Could the bullet have traversed a mile and found its resting place in the outer most layer of a tree? Quite possible.


 
That could be it, as well.


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## Delta-T (Jan 30, 2013)

Jags said:


> That could be it, as well.


you learn about these things when you train to be a ninja, like I did, back in '82 WASABI!


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## Jags (Jan 30, 2013)

You don't "train" to be a ninja...you are born that way.


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## Hawkeye (Jan 30, 2013)

OK so I dug the bullet out.  It was a lot more deformed than I expected!

I'm no forensics expert but I do shoot muzzleloader (.50 cal) and reload .223, 6mm and 0.45.  Looking at it with a co-worker who also reloads, we both guessed it to be around a 0.40 cal bullet, but figured it was more likely a 0.50 cal blackpowder round from someone deer hunting in the area.  It had penetrated about 4 inches or so, and then the tree grew back in around where it went in - making the total depth about 6 inches.

p.s. - this was guesstimated without ninja training


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