# Power down!



## Ashful (Feb 5, 2014)

Heard the old UPS on our NAS beeping at 4am... power went out.  Estimated repair at 8pm, so we'll be living like most of the former residents of our house, for today.

With two 3 cu.ft. stoves, making heat is no trouble, but circulating it to the far reaches of 6700 sq.ft. is going to be the problem.  I plan to watch our third floor and attached garage temps, as we have plumbing ad sinks in those two locations, but with outside temps just hovering around the freezing mark today, I don't anticipate any problems.

It got cold fast, with only one stove going, after the power went out.  No wonder they had a half dozen woodstoves in the pre-electric version of this house .


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## Knots (Feb 5, 2014)

Consider this though: you have a slight inconvenience with the inability to push the air around.  People with no stove have a full-blown crisis on their hands...

6700 sq ft is a hefty amount of heating to do, but as long as the pipes aren't freezing, the worst that can happen is you need to sleep closer to the stove!


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## velvetfoot (Feb 5, 2014)

With 580,000 customers out in the Philly area, I wouldn't count on an 8 PM restoration.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 5, 2014)

The ice storm never materialized for us here in central Pa. Just a little snow


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## tcassavaugh (Feb 5, 2014)

Seasoned Oak said:


> The ice storm never materialized for us here in central Pa. Just a little snow


 us either here south of d.c. all ice was to the north....this weekend might be a different story depending on the path of the storm.


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## HybridFyre (Feb 5, 2014)

Damn. 2 3 cb ft stoves and 6,700 sq ft. You must burn through a ton of wood


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## weatherguy (Feb 5, 2014)

Did you get an ice storm Joful? We have heavy wet snow here so may be some power outages, especially if it changes to freezing rain on top of it.


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## DougA (Feb 5, 2014)

Good thing the groundhog didn't appear on our property. I would have shot it. Cabin fever is setting in.


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## tarzan (Feb 5, 2014)

I believe Joful meant the main breaker tripped at his house and it will take him till 8:00 pm to walk across it and reset the breaker.


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## Ashful (Feb 5, 2014)

Good one, tarzan.    Actually, PECO called to say power has been restored to "parts of our neighborhood," although our house is still dead.  I might do well to check that main breaker, when I get home from work.

Yeah, we got nailed with at least 1/2" of solid ice, and an inch or so of slush after that.  My car and all of my trees look like a glazed donut.  I could hear trees snapping and coming down around my yard about every 20 minutes, this morning.  I'll be real busy with the chainsaws, as soon as weather and work permit.

Right now, I'm conducting several experiments in my back yard on just how far a walnut tree can bend before it snaps.


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## velvetfoot (Feb 5, 2014)

As long as there are no overhead wires in the backyard, that might not be so overhead any more.


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## Ashful (Feb 5, 2014)

Still no juice.  The novelty of the situation is wearing thin.  Fourth major outage since we moved in two years ago.  Time to start shopping generators.


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## Warm_in_NH (Feb 5, 2014)

I have got the best generator for you! It's a Honda 3500 about 7 years old, overly maintained case I get bored in the winter. It is a great generator but it is oh so much more! It is magical!  That's right,  it can do magic. 
If you buy it, with all the wires and boxes etc...it will guarantee power will not be lost for more than 3 hours at a time and not more than once a year once the purchase has been made.
Since this genny is magic and that will clearly cost more, asking price is $5000, but you'll never loose power again! I bought it nearly 5 years ago and haven't needed it since!
Ask about details. No guarantees,  warrantees,  you get Nutting but the magical generator.  Good deal. Really.


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## BrotherBart (Feb 5, 2014)

Joful said:


> 6700 sq.ft. is going to be the problem



I didn't know they had airplane hangers back in those days.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 6, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> I didn't know they had airplane hangers back in those days.


Iv got a commercial building with 4 large apartments 2 storefronts and a 1500SQ ft basement thats smaller than  6700SQ ft


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## Ashful (Feb 6, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> I didn't know they had airplane hangers back in those days.


1773 = 3000 sq ft plus attic
1894 = added 800 sq ft
1994 = added 2600 sq ft
1998 = finished attic = 800 sq ft
2013 = added 300 sq ft

Got a Powermate 6000/7500 generator.  Not my choice, would've pref. Honda or Robin, but it was all I could find in stock.

Wire to sit in the driveway near house, or out in the barn, 250 ft from house?  I'm thinking closer is better, for hearing how it's loaded, and convenience of starting/stopping, even if it means having it sit outside.


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## Warm_in_NH (Feb 6, 2014)

I think the wire is (forget what you need to use) is like a buck a foot. So, that's why mine sits outside. I put a saw horse on either side of it and a piece of plywood for a roof. It's my low budget generator house that sets up and comes down in a matter of minutes.


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## velvetfoot (Feb 6, 2014)

These things can get feet and walk away too.


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## jharkin (Feb 6, 2014)

Yea, to run that generator 250 feet out in the barn wont be cheap.  8 gauge is typically what generators that size are wired with on short runs, but looking at the wire size calculator on Southwire's website its coming up with #4 copper for 25 amps @ 250ft < 3% voltage drop if you do direct burial.  Add in the connections at either end or if code wants it sized to the surge rating you probably need to go up even to #3 Cu or #2 Al.

3-3 w/G  UFB  wire is going to be $$$$$$$ (edit, I dont know if they make regular UF-B in sizes like #3, probably have to use SE cable!)


Might want to build a little doghouse for it.  I'm thinking of doing that with my generator that currently lives in the garage and has to get dragged out through the back yard to plug in.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 6, 2014)

Joful said:


> 1773 = 3000 sq ft plus attic
> 1894 = added 800 sq ft
> 1994 = added 2600 sq ft
> 1998 = finished attic = 800 sq ft
> ...


I wouldnt want to pay your Real estate taxes on a place that size in Philadelphia.


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## BrotherBart (Feb 6, 2014)

That genny shed I built on the end of the wood shed three years ago is something I should have done 20 years ago. Right behind the garage. At the far end of the wood shed with a walkway so I don't tromp in the mud anymore for either.

Four twelve gauge cords running into the house. Pull the rope(s) and go. Two 3250s and one 5500 in there as needed.


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## Ashful (Feb 6, 2014)

Sorry, guys!  There's already a sub-feed with running out to the barn with a breaker panel out there, so I'd only need 10' of cord to wire into the panel.  Main advantage of putting it out there is that it's out of the weather, but disadvantages are running out there to turn it on/off, and not being able to hear it or get to it quick.  I also always worry about fire out there, not that it's likey to happen, but it's a wood shop with sawdust piled in every nook and cranny.  I hate to leave engines running out there, unattended.

This generator came with a cord, roughly 25 feet of AWG 10-4, with a NEMA L14-30P (240V 4-pole twist lock plug) on one end and four NEMA L5-20R's (regular 120V 20A receptacle) on the other.  For expediency, I just cut the receptacle set off the one end of the cord, fitted it with a second NEMA L14-30P (suicide cable), and plugged it into a L14-30 receptacle I hung off my sub-panel in the garage.  Shut off the main breaker, and anything high load (washer, dryer, microwave, range, etc.) and within an hour, I was up and running!

Living without power is an inconvenience, but never bothered me that much.  However, with two sick kids at home, and unable to go to work for the last WEEK, my wife was right on the edge of losing her mind.  For her sake, the permanent install (interlock / transfer switch, circuit re-routing, etc.) will have to wait for fair weather.  Our estimated repair time was 11pm Sunday, but today they pulled that estimate in to 11pm Friday.

Our taxes are surprisingly low... one of the many advantages of living in PA.    I'm not actually in Philly, but it's my closest major city.


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## Madcodger (Feb 7, 2014)

I suspect we're not far apart, and we're still hearing Sunday. But several friends in more civilized areas are already restored.  I see crews everywhere as I was out and about yesterday.  Our little 8Kw gennie has kept us purring along, and warm with the two pellet stoves.  I switch to one stove on battery at night, but may wire in the second to my big battery system over the weekend.


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## woodgeek (Feb 7, 2014)

The utility is progressing, looks like they crossed the 50% mark for power restoration last night.  The out of state crews show up today.  They think 'most' will have power tonight.  I don't think I will be part of 'most'.

My pre-EPA insert is keeping my house >40°F warmer than outside (mid-60s no problem) without a struggle, but this recreational burner's wood stash was not what it should have been (about 2 days worth on hand), I'm buying wood and borrowing from neighbors.


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## jharkin (Feb 7, 2014)

Joful said:


> Living without power is an inconvenience, but never bothered me that much.  However, with two sick kids at home, and unable to go to work for the last WEEK, my wife was right on the edge of losing her mind.  For her sake, the permanent install (interlock / transfer switch, circuit re-routing, etc.) will have to wait for fair weather.  Our estimated repair time was 11pm Sunday, but today they pulled that estimate in to 11pm Friday.
> 
> .



Glad to hear that you got everything up and running... I'm suprised they supplied the genset with 10/3-G (30amp max),  most sets 6000w and up are usually wired for a NEMA50 and 8/3

... and glad to hear you plan to do a proper interlock later, so we dont have to give you the backfeed dangers speech  




> Our taxes are surprisingly low... one of the many advantages of living in PA.    I'm not actually in Philly, but it's my closest major city



Must be for sure... In my town a house that size would be valued over 2mil  with a tax bill big enough to buy a new Benz every year!


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 7, 2014)

Im paying about $450 a year for 3000 SF. There are small homes at $150 a year. Probably unheard of in most places. Old homes around here tend not to go up that high,over the years, but a new home this size would start off at about $1500 a year.


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## Doug MacIVER (Feb 7, 2014)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Im paying about $450 a year for 3000 SF. There are small homes at $150 a year. Probably unheard of in most places. Old homes around here tend not to go up that high,over the years, but a new home this size would start off at about $1500 a year.


Hanover Mass rate $16.00+/$1000 evaluation. 1/2 mil house  $8000.+ in retax


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## jharkin (Feb 7, 2014)

Holy $(*&%(&*$%..  My takes are almost $19 per thousand.  My annual bill is over 6k  and my house is small enough to fit in Joful's living room.


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## Warm_in_NH (Feb 7, 2014)

My town in NH $22 per $1000. 
1000 square feet $3000/yr taxes.


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## Doug MacIVER (Feb 7, 2014)

jharkin said:


> Holy $(*&%(&*$%..  My takes are almost $19 per thousand.  My annual bill is over 6k  and my house is small enough to fit in Joful's living room.


w c had it right, butt not in retax market" better in Philadelphia" what a great deal. small town mass has usually no city sewer or trash, some even live on wells. all we have are good police and fire, h2o, and then we get to go to the transfer station once a week. almost forgot darn good schools.


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## Doug MacIVER (Feb 7, 2014)

Warm_in_NH said:


> My town in NH $22 per $1000.
> 1000 square feet $3000/yr taxes.



trade for the no sales or income tax  and you take the 5%+ inc. and 6%+salestx and you get the16.00+retax rate


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## Ashful (Feb 7, 2014)

Madcodger said:


> I suspect we're not far apart, and we're still hearing Sunday.


Northern Mont.Co.  Our power just came on an hour ago.  Wife is still running on generator, probably until I can get home and switch her back on grid tonight.



jharkin said:


> Glad to hear that you got everything up and running... I'm suprised they supplied the genset with 10/3-G (30amp max),  most sets 6000w and up are usually wired for a NEMA50 and 8/3.


10/3+G is plenty for 6000 VA.  Even the super-conservative residential ratings put 10/3 NMB at 30A (6900VA), and the cord is only 25 feet.  I'll have to check the insulation rating on this cord, but rated as portable cordage, it's going to be way beyond the capacity of my generator.  Resistance is .025 ohms for that length, putting V-drop at 0.75 volt (0.7%), so definitely no problem.



jharkin said:


> Must be for sure... In my town a house that size would be valued over 2mil  with a tax bill big enough to buy a new Benz every year!





Seasoned Oak said:


> Im paying about $450 a year for 3000 SF. There are small homes at $150 a year. Probably unheard of in most places. Old homes around here tend not to go up that high,over the years, but a new home this size would start off at about $1500 a year.


I'm paying $6k/year for an assessment based on 5500 sq.ft. heated space, plus 900 sq.ft. of detached garage, on 4 acres.  My neighbors in similar size (but newer and severely inferior) houses are paying $8k - $10k.  The guy directly across the street from me is paying $24k/ year... but he's got a house that makes mine look quaint.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 7, 2014)

Joful said:


> I'm paying $6k/year for an assessment based on 5500 sq.ft. heated space, plus 900 sq.ft. of detached garage, on 4 acres.  My neighbors in similar size (but newer and severely inferior) houses are paying $8k - $10k.  The guy directly across the street from me is paying $24k/ year... but he's got a house that makes mine look quaint.



All my tax bills  for 19  mostly single family homes and 1 commercial building 12000 Sq ft with 7 apartments and 3 storefronts + one acre in the country with a cabin on it, come to just under $6.5K yearly for everything. We get 2 bills a year, 1st city and county about 4k  2nd School Tax about 2.5K.  Commercial Bldg is the highest about $770 a year. No wonder so many people are moving here from Philly, and other large cities. Unfortunately we are not getting the best of them.


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## Ashful (Feb 7, 2014)

Central PA, and perhaps western PA even more so, are simply beautiful.  Fantastic summer weather, and great people.  It's as close to paradise as I can imagine, being so far from the shore.  If the employment situation (esp. tech) wasn't so bad out there, I'd definitely consider a life in central or western PA.


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## TradEddie (Feb 7, 2014)

Three days without power here in the western suburbs, no sign of it coming back, 70% of the township is still dark. No heating problems at all, the Lopi did admirably even without the fan, although it only went into the teens at night. I did finally get around to building a housing for my lantern battery powered stove fan, I will post pics when I get my own power back.  It was icepocalypse here on Wednesday, I've never seen anything like it. Fortunately we only lost a couple of already sickly trees, most around were not so lucky, lots of firewood available for 2016 around here.

3 days is my survival design specification, time to move to a friends house now.

TE


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 7, 2014)

Joful said:


> Central PA, and perhaps western PA even more so, are simply beautiful.  Fantastic summer weather, and great people.  It's as close to paradise as I can imagine, being so far from the shore.  If the employment situation (esp. tech) wasn't so bad out there, I'd definitely consider a life in central or western PA.


Your retirement dollars will go farther out here. Could probably get a small farm for what you could sell you rhouse for in Philly. With less taxes to boot.


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## Dave A. (Feb 7, 2014)

Woke up to the sound of a nearby generator Wednesday morning, couldn't figure out what it was until I saw no lights on my alarm clock.  Guess that neighbor had his generator ready and waiting for the first opportunity.  I had already lasted 3 or 4 years with my unused generator which had almost acted like an insurance policy preventing new power outages for several years, until Wednesday -- wondered if I was ever going to use that thing that was just gathering dust.  In fact I didn't even hook it up the first day because I was thinking there was chance they'd have the power back on quickly and if I didn't run it, I wouldn't be having to maintain a gen that had been filled with gas and oil (never-used it can sit around for years, once it's used it has to be regularly maintained).

Before I even bought it we were having more-than-1-day outages just about every year -- the type that would ruin food in freezers and refrigs.  I knew that after 24 hours I would need to get it hooked up.  So I spent the first day planning how to assemble a back feed hook up and picking up what was left of extension cords in the stores if I went that route.

This generator's small, 3500 watts (120V), but just about everything here is gas (LP). The only 240V is the dryer and if I were replacing that it would be gas too. So the small size isn't a problem. Couldn't get the right twist plug. 3 prong 30A 120V, just won't fit in easily for some reason (I don't want to force it and break it, in fact I'm wondering if maybe Champion (Gen brand) uses a proprietary plug, they do offer a made up cord on their site. But the generator panel does have another 30A outlet for an RV plug (same rating as the twist lock outlet) , which I finally was able to locate this morning -- RV plug at another Lowes.

Thursday I just used extension cords with the gen -- had my car in the shop for most of the day so I was stuck at home unable to get things I needed for the backfeed hookup.  Without a ground rod none of the electronic equipment -- computer, microwave would work with extension cords and after seeing that, was afraid of messing up the flatscreen too.  I got the heavy gauge cord last night.  Unfortunately the cord is too fat to fit in the RV plug (looks like I'll have to return the cord).

So today I made a test and backfed half the house with a 20A 120V deadman cord.  Worked fine, tv, computer, microwave all worked. Really nice to be able to just flip wall switches and have room lighting come on.  And then the phone rang around 4 PM -- PECO letting me know the power was back on.  Had always thought it strange they would call to tell you when the power came back on.  In the past I could plainly see that it came back on.  But now I realize, if you're using a generator feeding the house, good chance you would not know or even hear all the other generators go silent, with your own running.

Now that the adventure is over, I just have to figure out the best way to get all of that gas out of the generator and back into the gas can to pour in my car.

Though I do want to get the hook up for 30A working now, so that next time I need it,  can have it hooked right up without a problem (will be using an interlock eventually when I get it all hooked up).


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## Ashful (Feb 7, 2014)

Well, to close out my story, our power came back on today around lunchtime.  My wife was able to get the generator shut down, unplugged, main back on, and switch back on all the breakers I had opened.... all before I got home from work.

After a day of watching my lights surge and dim (a few times must have been BIG surges), I decided the generator we had bought in desperation on Thursday had to go back, in exchange for a better model.  I brought home some equipment from work to record the surging behavior, as Home Depot had this genny listed as having Automatic Voltage Regulation (AVR), but then found the manufacturer's site stated it did not.  I returned it based on that discrepancy, and ordered a more expensive Honda powered model with AVR, which should be here next week.

We lost all of the food in our garage freezer, which was without power almost 40 hours, but aside from that no financial damage was done.  I have maybe 40 downed trees to clean up, which will be a challenge, as busy as I am at the moment.  I'll probably get the first 3 (fell on stuff I need to get at) this weekend, and the rest will just have to wait for better days.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 7, 2014)

Should have wheeled that freezer outside.


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## Ashful (Feb 7, 2014)

Yeah... just had bigger fish to fry, at the moment.  I had at least three consecutive nights with less than 4 hours sleep, between two sick kids, a wife who was at her wits end (and now sick herself), two big projects coming to completion at work, and trying to keep the house from freezing.  When I could find a few free minutes between those priorities, I'd try to sit down and close my eyes for a few minutes.  I had a headache for three days, which wasn't helping my mood (or straight thinking) any, either.

I'd be drinking right now, if I weren't too damn tired.


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## begreen (Feb 8, 2014)

I hear you. We went through that crazy parade the first time we had a major outage after moving into this house. It was exhausting keeping fires going and dealing with early winter darkness and roads blocked by fallen trees. Now the kids are grown and we are much better prepared and can handle it more in stride.


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## woodgeek (Feb 9, 2014)

There were some wicked surges here as the power went out.  I think I saw and heard sparks in some of my wall outlets, and every power-strip in the house had the breaker tripped, along with about 1/3 of my circuit breakers.

Good news: I have whole house surge suppressors in the breaker box, one on each leg.  After the power came back, the LED indicates that one is dead (gave its life)...there is also a scorch mark inside the box door right over that one .  Seems that everything else in the house is aok.

Bad news: neighbors report that several *circuits* in their house are non-functional, and some electronics.


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## Ashful (Feb 9, 2014)

Yikes.  I might do well to install a pair of suppressors.  These fit into an open breaker slot?

I'd hate to see how the 100 year old cloth over rubber wiring we have in parts of the house deals with that scenario.


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## woodgeek (Feb 9, 2014)

Yup.  I'm still shopping, but a lot fill two slots and protect both legs...

e.g. http://www.amazon.com/Square-Schneider-Electric-QO2175SB-SurgeBreaker/dp/B000CG80KY#productDetails

Edit: ended up reordering the one I had before: http://www.amazon.com/Cutler-Hammer-BRSURGE-Surge-Arrestor/dp/B003S63AWS


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## Madcodger (Feb 9, 2014)

Re whole house surge suppressors:  Had one fry in our last big outage as the power went out, and it blew a soot mark on the wall where it was mounted under the panel, the surge was so bad.  My electrician and I opened it up inside after we pulled it from the panel, and the insides were melted.  We lost a couple of wall wart power supplies but otherwise it did a fantastic job, saving us thousands in equipment.  I have an Intermatic mounted on each of our two panels now, and yes, it takes up two slots in your panel, closest to the main.

Re power outage, we're still off at our place in Chester county, and PECO has gone from saying Friday night to Sunday night to "sometime next week".  Bought a new oil filter and two spares for the gennie, and 5w-30 synthetic (that baby deserves a treat!).  Running on my battery bank still this morning, and used it to power the coffee maker and ash vac this morning for the weekly cleaning of my stove, just to test it.  No sweat, and it only used about 900 watts, so I'm going to extend the circuit to the other pellet stove and think about how to continue improving this design.  I told my wife last night that I was ready to buy land out west and go off grid when we retire.  She was all for it!


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## Dave A. (Feb 9, 2014)

Hope you get your power back soon.



Madcodger said:


> Bought a new oil filter and two spares for the gennie, and 5w-30 synthetic (that baby deserves a treat!).



5w-30 vs. 10w-30 looks like that just extends the lower range without effecting the upper, if I'm understanding right.  Makes sense to use that instead of the 10w30 in mine.  Might as well use synthetic too, I guess.



Madcodger said:


> Running on my battery bank still this morning, and used it to power the coffee maker and ash vac this morning for the weekly cleaning of my stove, just to test it.



I've used my emergency car starter battery with an inverter to power some small things like a fan, chargers, radio, etc. in the past.  Setting up a whole bank sounds like a good idea, and wiring it into the house somehow, even better.  Wondering if that's something you can do yourself with individual parts, or if you need an electrician or package to buy and install.


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## parthy (Feb 9, 2014)

Madcodger:  I will be finishing up the panel early spring and have been wanting to put one of those whole house power surge things in.  I do my own electrical, what does one of those things cost?  Where does it connect at first?  I can get the power company to disconnect my power at the line for a reasonable price if necessary.


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## Ashful (Feb 9, 2014)

Dave A. said:


> 5w-30 vs. 10w-30 looks like that just extends the lower range without effecting the upper, if I'm understanding right.  Makes sense to use that instead of the 10w30 in mine.  Might as well use synthetic too, I guess.


Oil consumption will be increased a bit at warmer temperatures, if running 5W-30 in an application calling for 10W-30.  No real harm done, other than maybe slightly faster carbon build-up in the combustion chamber.  I believe that's why you will often see mfg'rs calling out 10W-30 dyno or 5W-30 synth, as synth does not cause the same level of carbon build-up.

In general, manufacturer's will tell you that when using the equipment over a range of temperatures exceeding the recommendation for any one type of oil, to base your selection on the lower temperature limit.  The equipment will be protected, other than the minor issue of consumption mentioned above.  Using the equipment at temperatures lower than that recommended for the oil you're running is much worse, as the oil will not distribute properly, when cold.


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## Madcodger (Feb 10, 2014)

Dave A. said:


> I've used my emergency car starter battery with an inverter to power some small things like a fan, chargers, radio, etc. in the past.  Setting up a whole bank sounds like a good idea, and wiring it into the house somehow, even better.  Wondering if that's something you can do yourself with individual parts, or if you need an electrician or package to buy and install.



I wouldn't advise using a car battery.  Car battery plates are thin, designed to produce large amperage for short bursts.  For powering things over time, you need a deep cycle battery (thick plates), with less ability to produce lots of power in a burst, but much less likely to sulfate, which is what kills batteries.

To wire into house, you need an inverter (converts DC to AC current) and a way to recharge the batteries.  Unless you are very familiar with electricity, do not attempt on your own.  I am unaware of packages and you will need a good knowledge of current calculations, wire sizing, etc.  I designed mine with my electrician, but even then it required research.


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## Madcodger (Feb 10, 2014)

parthy said:


> Madcodger:  I will be finishing up the panel early spring and have been wanting to put one of those whole house power surge things in.  I do my own electrical, what does one of those things cost?  Where does it connect at first?  I can get the power company to disconnect my power at the line for a reasonable price if necessary.


Between $100-$200 for the part, depending on mfr and where purchased.  I used Intermatic.  Best place to connect is first slots below main breaker (assuming top location for main), taking up two slots (uses 240V breaker) as it needs to protect both sides of panel.  My standard advice is that unless you are very familiar, skilled, comfortable, do not mess around inside your panel.  It's a bit more than just fixing a receptacle, and can easily kill you.  It's a one-two hour job for an electrician, assuming your existing breakers can be easily moved down.


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## Ehouse (Feb 10, 2014)

Madcodger said:


> I wouldn't advise using a car battery.  Car battery plates are thin, designed to produce large amperage for short bursts.  For powering things over time, you need a deep cycle battery (thick plates), with less ability to produce lots of power in a burst, but much less likely to sulfate, which is what kills batteries.
> 
> To wire into house, you need an inverter (converts DC to AC current) and a way to recharge the batteries.  Unless you are very familiar with electricity, do not attempt on your own.  I am unaware of packages and you will need a good knowledge of current calculations, wire sizing, etc.  I designed mine with my electrician, but even then it required research.




Google New England Solar.  They have a good pamphlet on Gen/inverter/battery setups, and they sell packages as well.


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## parthy (Feb 10, 2014)

Madcodger said:


> Between $100-$200 for the part, depending on mfr and where purchased.  I used Intermatic.  Best place to connect is first slots below main breaker (assuming top location for main), taking up two slots (uses 240V breaker) as it needs to protect both sides of panel.  My standard advice is that unless you are very familiar, skilled, comfortable, do not mess around inside your panel.  It's a bit more than just fixing a receptacle, and can easily kill you.  It's a one-two hour job for an electrician, assuming your existing breakers can be easily moved down.


 
Ok, safety noted.  That said, I did my panel installation myself (with some help for the tough bending wire stuff) and have wired everything so far.  And have passed my first inspection.   I have not completed the full install of all the breakers and could easily move things down on the right side of the panel and it would be installed using the top 2 slots and wired just like all my baseboard 240v heaters.

I have a self-wire permit and passed my inspection with a nod from Hydro that I know what I am doing apparently.


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## jharkin (Feb 10, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> Yup.  I'm still shopping, but a lot fill two slots and protect both legs...
> 
> e.g. http://www.amazon.com/Square-Schneider-Electric-QO2175SB-SurgeBreaker/dp/B000CG80KY#productDetails
> 
> Edit: ended up reordering the one I had before: http://www.amazon.com/Cutler-Hammer-BRSURGE-Surge-Arrestor/dp/B003S63AWS




All this talk reminds me that Ive been wanting to do one also.  There are two kinds - one like you have here that is built into a double breaker, and you can even still use those for live circuits.  And another kind that mount in an external box that wires to two ordinary breakers and uses up the spots.

An electrical book I have recommends the breaker type as they react faster.  My electrician likes the external ones because they have greater ultimate surge capacity.

Ive got a Siemens panel so I'd use this breaker mount model: 
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-...u=202562776&ci_kw=&ci_gpa=pla&ci_src=17588969

Or one of these external units like the Intermatic PanelGuard series:
http://www.intermatic.com/Products/SurgeProtectiveDevices/IG_Series.aspx


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## parthy (Feb 10, 2014)

jharkin said:


> All this talk reminds me that Ive been wanting to do one also.  There are two kinds - one like you have here that is built into a double breaker, and you can even still use those for live circuits.  And another kind that mount in an external box that wires to two ordinary breakers and uses up the spots.
> 
> An electrical book I have recommends the breaker type as they react faster.  My electrician likes the external ones because they have greater ultimate surge capacity.
> 
> ...


 


Ok, I am confused. Maybe.  The breaker mount model only protects those branches off that breaker?  That would be a problem for me as I have to have an arc fault breaker for the "so called" bedroom circuits where my computers are.  The external units control the entire house?  Or do I have it mixed up?


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## jharkin (Feb 10, 2014)

parthy said:


> Ok, I am confused. Maybe.  The breaker mount model only protects those branches off that breaker?  That would be a problem for me as I have to have an arc fault breaker for the "so called" bedroom circuits where my computers are.  The external units control the entire house?  Or do I have it mixed up?



They both protect the entire panel.  the difference is that the breaker mount unit doesn't use up the slots since you can still wire circuits to it like a normal breaker.


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## parthy (Feb 10, 2014)

jharkin said:


> They both protect the entire panel.  the difference is that hte breaker mount unit doesnt use up the slots since you can still wire circuits to it like a normal breaker.


 
Ok, now I get it.  That would work better for me.  Thanks, I will look into this more for Canadian applications/laws before I do anything else in the panel.   My brain is learning plumbing drains systems right now and for some reason it isn't sticking and knocking everything else out of my ears.


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## begreen (Feb 11, 2014)

Joful, do you have power back on now? Another storm is at your back. Hoping you have at least been able to get in a hot shower before part 2 hits.


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## Ashful (Feb 12, 2014)

Thanks for asking, begreen.  Yep... power came back on Friday around noon, so we're in good shape... for the moment.  We were out for 3.5 days.

Unfortunately, the generator I purchased in a pinch during the last storm turned out to have very poor voltage regulation.  I anticipated that going into the purchase, but it was the only one available.  I returned it last Friday, in exchange for a much nicer unit, which won't be here until after this storm passes.  Hopefully we don't lose power this time!

No heat = no big deal, with my stoves.  No lights or TV for 2 or 3 days is actually kind of fun.  No running water with a wife and 2 kids in the house really sucks, though.


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## begreen (Feb 12, 2014)

Good deal. I'm glad you are getting hot showers before the next snowmagedon hits.


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## Ashful (Feb 12, 2014)

New genny came in today.  Ran out to pick it up after work, and assembled it in the driveway over the last hour, with snow starting to fall.  She purrs like a little kitten, compared to the last unit (79 vs. 82 dB), and is more solidly built all around, with electric start to boot!  Almost looking forward to a chance to use her, now.


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## Dave A. (Feb 13, 2014)

Sounds good.  Don't recall your saying which one you got.

We just got power back on after being out for a couple hours this morning.  Was sort of hoping I'd be able to use the gen, but had to clear out an area with snow first (and then power was restored).  And am supposed to change the oil in the gen (after first 4 hours use), got some quaker state full synthetic (there were blends that were cheaper).  No room to put a drain pan under it without getting oil on the frame.  But I guess I should change it before I use it again.


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## Ashful (Feb 13, 2014)

I bought a PowerStroke 6800:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/PowerStr...ectric-Start-PS907000A/204401587?N=5yc1vZbx9n

Based on assembly, but zero use so far, t's a nice unit... with a few quirks.  First, instead of a solid axle, they have the wheels attached to the frame with one long bolt each.  The mount for one is not welded quite plumb/square, so that wheel leans toward the sheetmetal on the side of the generator.  It's just a weak, silly design, versus a simple steel rod with a pair of C-clips for an axle.  Second, the oil fill hole is IMPOSSIBLE to get at, with any sort of bottle or funnel.  They mounted the engine such that the filler necks on both sides are covered by other parts of the generator.  I had to make up a little trough, which carries oil from where I can pour the bottle to the filler neck.  Neither of these items fail to make the generator work, but they do make me love it less.

Finally, the dip stick has no hi/lo markings or indicator.  It's just a blank dip stick.  Sure, there's oil on the stick, but where should it be?  It does not match what's shown in the manuals.  I assume this Honda is like any other Honda I've ever owned, in that you should fill until it's up onto the threads on the filler neck, but I'd like to know for sure.


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## woodgeek (Feb 13, 2014)

Did it come with the battery? My neighbor got something similar last week (had to drive to DE during the ice storm to get it).  He couldn't get it started w/o the battery (that he could not find in the storm) by pulling on the cord.  I suggested he just jump it off his truck, he did and was happy.


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## Dave A. (Feb 13, 2014)

Seems like a nice one -- I like the large tank and the reviews say it's quiet.

Mine has that kind of fill and dipstick.  Came with a special funnel, but that was four years ago, and am still trying to figure out where I put it.  Meanwhile I had this special weird funnel I picked up with an articulating spout (for filling things with the new style gas cans with the spouts that are too short) you can put into different angles which worked out okay for filling the gen with oil.  Only when you refill it apparently you don't need as much oil as they say -- it overfilled slightly, pretty much filled to the top -- it's angled and the diff between underfilled and filled is not much (hope that's okay -- maybe I should try to get a little more out?).

Was at Ace Hardware the other day getting lamp oil (price went up almost double and now it looks like someone else has it cheaper) and looking for that special funnel for the gen,  the guy was telling me they are Generac dealer.  He said they run on propane.  That sort of intrigued me cause I have LP in the house and he said I could hook it up to that -- (wouldn't have to be refilling).  He said they run a little quieter but use more fuel in running with LP.  Also said that type of fill I have is a sign of cheap import, suggesting the Generacs didn't have that.  I don't know what to make of all that though -- don't really have to buy at this point, but since mine is on the small side, only 125v, keeping an eye open, in case I have to replace it for some reason I'd def look for a 240v minimum.


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## Ashful (Feb 13, 2014)

I thought of going the propane route, too, since I have LP on-site as well.  Would've def. gone that way if I were doing an installed unit, but in portable the LP options are fewer.

woodgeek, this one came with a battery.  It was actually charged, too.  I connected the wires to the posts, and she fired right up.  However, she also starts on the first pull of the recoiler cord, as well.

I have an electric start on my snowblower, and honestly almost never use it.  It's more work to unwind a cord and plug it in, than it is to just pull the starter cord.  I wouldn't have chosen a generator based on this feature, but it will be nice for times when I leave my wife alone to start the generator.  It came with a battery tender, which I assume is to be left plugged in during storage, but I need to read the literature on that this weekend.


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