# Gasification Boiler Piping Scheme



## Eric Johnson (Mar 27, 2007)

Thanks to a lot of help from Dave at cozyheat.net, here's the piping scheme for my new boiler installation. I tried to keep it simple and relatively inexpensive, using as much of the existing equipment and layout as possible.

The illustration is hard to read. Here's a link to the pdf:

http://www.nefpexpo.net/thewholeshebang.pdf


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## BrotherBart (Mar 27, 2007)

Whoa! I watched the video on the boiler. There is some major heat making goiing on in that gas combustion chamber.


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## Eric Johnson (Mar 27, 2007)

Yeah, and about as much smoke as one of your Marlboro's, BB.


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## BrotherBart (Mar 28, 2007)

Methinks you were right about your wood consumption dropping dramtically. Gotta know though, how do those things work? Is it going to work like my neighbors old one does. Fire the crap out of it once a day and used the stored hot water for heat?


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## Eric Johnson (Mar 28, 2007)

The people I've talked to who have gasifiers, both Tarms and EKOs, say that the best way to do it is fire them full bore. So yes, the tank is where you would store your heat. A guy I talked to who has a similar-sized Tarm and an 800-gallon tank says that even when it's below zero, he loads the thing twice a day, max, and can skip a day when it's in the '30s. In the summer, you can run one load of wood per week for your domestic hot water. The Tarm goes out if it has to idle for too long (i.e., when the tank is fully charged and there's no call for heat from the house). The EKO has a feature that blows the fan every ten minutes or so during idle, so that the coals (allegedly) stay alive during idle, as long as there's wood in the firebox. I suspect it smokes a little when that happens, but probably not very much.

In a way, these are more like conventional gas or oil burners, in that there's no big bed of coals to constantly supply heat. When you make the heat, you have to put it somewhere. Hence the tank. I think it's quite a bit different from an operational standpoint from what I have now.

I'm used to tending the boiler when I'm around, so at first I'll probably get into going out there and putting small loads of wood in it all day long, just to see it work. I have enough room to expand the storage tank from 1,000 to about 2,500 gallons, so I might eventually get into a situation where I'm firing the boiler up once every couple of days during average winter weather and maybe once a day when it's really cold. In the summer, it would be so long between firings for DHW that I'd probably forget to do it and catch hell from my wife for running out of hot water.

The guy with the Tarm says that when the fire goes out, all he does is squirt a little lighter fluid on the charred wood remaining in the combustion changer, hits it with a propane torch, and in a couple of minutes he's back in business. Beats fooling around with paper and kindling. Personally, as I've said before, I'm used to firing the boiler up in the fall and keeping it going until the following spring. But, in the immortal words of my main man, Red Green:

I'm a man.
I can change. 
If I have to.
I guess.....


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## BrotherBart (Mar 28, 2007)

Ok. I have never said it here. Pictures. We gotta have pics of this one all the way. To me this is going to be one amazing set-up.

And you have got to be the only guy on the planet that will have a void in his life because he has to process less wood and feed the fire less often. Stoking every couple of days is what I would envison heaven as looking like.

Rock and roll.


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## Eric Johnson (Mar 28, 2007)

That, the 72 virgins and the rivers of wine.

As for the progress pics, BB, you won't have to ask twice.


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## Corie (Mar 28, 2007)

Eric,

What's the quality of the insulation on the holding tank like?


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## Eric Johnson (Mar 28, 2007)

It's two-inch foam board. Not polypropylene (blueboard), which can't take the heat. It's the other, yellow stuff with the foil wrap that they sell at Home Depot and Lowe's. About $33 for a 4x8 sheet. I can't begin to spell it.

Here's the thread detailing the tank construction.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/6929/P15/


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## Corie (Mar 28, 2007)

One more question: What are the dimensions of the tank?

I want to calculate the heat loss from the tank in BTU per hour.


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## Gunner (Mar 28, 2007)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Whoa! I watched the video on the boiler. There is some major heat making goiing on in that gas combustion chamber.



Where would I find the video?


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## Eric Johnson (Mar 28, 2007)

The tank is 7' long by 4' wide by 5' deep. The insulation covers the entire surface area of the inside of the tank (including the lid) and is sandwiched between the pond liner and the concrete. The floor is poured concrete and 3 of the walls are reinforced concrete 8" thick. The other wall (7x4x5) will be 8" cinderblock filled with vermiculite.

Craig showed me how to calculate the heat holding capacity. Assuming that the discharged tank has 130-degree water and a fully charged tank is full of 190-degree water, it represents just over 400,000 btus of storage. The boiler puts out 205 to 210K btu per hour, depending on who you ask.

Calculate away, Corie.


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## Hbbyloggr (Mar 28, 2007)

Eric,

 Hats off to you for your new direction in wood heating.
From the looks of the diagram it appears to have a side arm transfer for the domestic hot water. If you are concerned about running out of hot water you may want to consider a " 60 gal Super Store " tank with the coil inside the tank. Ours is powered by an Emprye 450. We put one in to replace the 30 gal electric hot water heater and have never run out of hot water no matter how much the kids shower, dishes get washed or clothes get cleaned. Just add a mixing valve and you're in heaven.
Also, if the holding tank is not quite finished you may want to consider adding a layer of " Foil -Bubble- Bubble- Foil" from Farm Tek. It will reflect 97 % of the radiant heat back to the chamber. It's great stuff. We put it on the new roof of our home and dramatically cut down on the heat loss.

Good luck !


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## Burn-1 (Mar 28, 2007)

Gunner said:
			
		

> BrotherBart said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



EKO video

Wood gas combustion in the refractory chamber


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## Eric Johnson (Mar 28, 2007)

For me it's the next logical step. Actually, I'm already using the (homemade) sidearm with my current boiler, and it works just fine. We have plenty of hot water all the time, even with a 16-year-old girl. So I'm sticking with what works, but indirect is definitely a good way to go. And thanks for the foil bubble tip. Sounds like mylar, no? That stuff is pretty cheap and it reflects like crazy. That's a great idea--I'll have to check it out.


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## elkimmeg (Mar 28, 2007)

couple of concerns the anti freeze zone to the green houes I charged my system with antifreeze but after 4 years I now have to re charge the system because I use a variable fill valve tied to my domestic watter . I'm thinking of installing a freon type tank filling it with a couple of gallone and installing an air pressure valve and preurizing the tank. I would also install a pressure gage to monitor what going on in there. This way the atti freeze dissipation would be recharged with anti freeze and not get diluted with the domestic water.

 second observation is are you presurizing the system with the domestic water or are you setting up  a well tank  witha booster pump to do so also I agree for hot water a separate zone to a aqua  bioiled budy system with a coil.  What about solar hot water assistance? I see the 1000 gallon tank for heat storage and wonder is piping threw rock cement insul;ated might accomplish the same thing


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## Eric Johnson (Mar 28, 2007)

Good points, elk. The greenhouse loop is not really diagrammed completely. What I need is a reservoir (along with a PRV and gauge), since there's not very much fluid in that loop to begin with. If I use cast iron radiators instead of baseboard for radiant heat, then I probably don't need a res. I don't like messing with glycol, but the greenhouse is just too vulnerable to freezing up, and I don't want to have to drain the system every time I decide to shut 'er down. I'll probably just put in a fill tube and top it off as needed, instead of trying to put in a domestic water feed.

The DHW tank is under normal city water pressure. The heating system is at about 15 psi. There's really no connection between the two, other than through the copper sidearm heat exchanger and the system fill line, which runs through a regulator and is shut off with a ball valve when I'm not filling the system. I also have a check valve on that line to keep the boiler water from backing up into the domestic water.

I decided to put my meager resources into the gasification boiler instead of solar, although you could easily transfer heat from solar panels into the tank. I don't think thermal mass is comparable to 1000 gallons of hot water for heat storage and transfer, if that's what you're suggesting. Liquid is so much more.......liquid as a heating asset.


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## Hbbyloggr (Mar 28, 2007)

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> For me it's the next logical step. Actually, I'm already using the (homemade) sidearm with my current boiler, and it works just fine. We have plenty of hot water all the time, even with a 16-year-old girl. So I'm sticking with what works, but indirect is definitely a good way to go. And thanks for the foil bubble tip. Sounds like mylar, no? That stuff is pretty cheap and it reflects like crazy. That's a great idea--I'll have to check it out.


 Eric,

It may be a mylar skin. In any event, it is very flexible, easy to work, and it used a lot for the barrier between earth and radiant heating systems. 
As an example, I rebuilt the roof of our old cape , circa 1793 , last fall. Installed new rafters and used the FBBF in the confined space between the rafters with out any other insulation.  The company claims an R-19 value in a confined space ,but with a 97% radiant heat reflectivity rating which would make a huge difference with your application.
This winter there was no visible sign of heat loss on the snow on the roof. Made a believer out of me!
The web site:  www.GrowersSupply.com 

Bill


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## begreen (Mar 28, 2007)

Totally awesome project Eric. I'm really impressed so far by the Orlan line. It's great to see this technology showing up, particularly right here on hearth.com!


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## Eric Johnson (Mar 28, 2007)

The Euros have this gasification thing pretty well doped out, I think. I'm impressed with all the gasification boilers out there.

Somebody's got to stick up for wood-based central heat on this board--and keep you stove guys honest.

Seriously, I think there's plenty of room around here for just about everyone, including (and maybe especially) OWBs. I think most of us understand that the critical issue in wood burning is using the appropriate technology in the right application and location, and all within a reasonable budget. I could show you some outstanding OWB installations. I think we could even get the no-burn Nazis to contribute some useful and thought-provoking discussion that would benefit all of us.

How many people have upgraded from their pre-EPA stoves, chimneys, etc. after hanging around Hearth.com? And would they have bothered to stick around if they were abused for using what they happened to have installed? Tolerance, understanding and a willingness to both learn and share information and ideas seems to be the prevailing attitude around here, and that's what makes this such a great site. That and the great mods.


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## keyman512us (Mar 29, 2007)

> Somebody’s got to stick up for wood-based central heat on this board--and keep you stove guys honest.
> 
> Seriously, I think there’s plenty of room around here for just about everyone, including (and maybe especially) OWBs. I think most of us understand that the critical issue in wood burning is using the appropriate technology in the right application and location, and all within a reasonable budget. I could show you some outstanding OWB installations. I think we could even get the no-burn Nazis to contribute some useful and thought-provoking discussion that would benefit all of us.
> 
> How many people have upgraded from their pre-EPA stoves, chimneys, etc. after hanging around Hearth.com? And would they have bothered to stick around if they were abused for using what they happened to have installed? Tolerance, understanding and a willingness to both learn and share information and ideas seems to be the prevailing attitude around here, and that’s what makes this such a great site. That and the great mods.



Eric...Well spoken! 

I've got a few issues with my setup...but am making things better all the time (trying to):
A friend came over yesterday and noticed the next door neighbors smoke...(from the oil burner) and said "You outta take a picture of what really smokes up the neighborhood!"

Fresh load of wood, fairly windy at the time...which one is the smoke dragon (gotta zoom in):


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## Hbbyloggr (Mar 29, 2007)

It would seem the common denominator for all of us is firewood, not necessarily the vehicle used to produce the heat we need. New technology has a way of  changing the vehicle and in the process we all come up to speed. Better insulation, better combustion, better safety standards redefine our methods of operation. Maybe loggers are a different breed. I don't know anyone in our logging industry that condemns a guy for running a JD 440C just because they run a CTL system. The common denominator is logging and is respected by both operators.

I'm waiting for our next generation of OWB's to prove themselves. The technology is close at hand and I will be first in line. In the mean time I have to run the "440C". The little enamel stoves just don't do it in our industrial application requiring 500,000+ BTU's. 

We sell about 1000 cords of firewood per year. I don't refuse a sale because someone uses my wood in a fireplace. an outdoor grill, smoker grill, OWB , or non-secondary burn wood stove. I'm delighted they are burning wood, period. I'm delighted they are using renewable wood energy as an alternative to gas and oil. I have high praise for all of us that have vision concerning our energy needs.


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## Eric Johnson (Mar 29, 2007)

Good points, Bill. Well said. The 440C was (and still is) a great skidder. A lot of us wish they still made 'em. I drove by Eddie Nash's the other day, and it looked like he has more than a few stacked up in the yard.

I haven't seen one of the new Black Bear gasification OWBs in operation yet, but I hear they're performing more or less as advertised. Hopefully they will become a big hit and start producing units bigger than 90K btus.

I like your stack extension, keyman. You're right about oil burners--I've seen them put out more smoke than a pre-epa woodstove.


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## Hbbyloggr (Mar 29, 2007)

Eric, 

Eddie Nash's place should be in the National Register. 

If you're ever in the area our coffee pot is always on.

Yep, there's going to be a lot of exciting stuff going on in the wood burning field, and other areas, too.  You might be interested in some of the energy technology the farming community has to offer with their own local resources. Look up www.Farmshow.com . The common thread to all the new high-tech stuff is high temperature.

" You might be on the right road but if you stand still you're going to get run over."

Bill


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## MADDOG (Apr 13, 2007)

what is the need for water storage w the eko that you speek off?
Is the water capacity of an eko boiler such that you need to store 1000 gallons of water and why, have a 60 gallon hot water storage tank in floo heat in garage dhw to maintain, and heat via coil in forced air furnace, why the need to store water is it not best to set all temps let it burn and do its thing

thanks kjm


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## Eric Johnson (Apr 13, 2007)

I resisted the idea of water storage at first, too, mainly because you can spend upwards of $3,000 for an 800 gallon tank and heat exchangers. Actually, probably more than that now, given the price of copper. And I couldn't see spending that in addition to the cost of the boiler. Plus, I've heated with various conventional wood boilers for about 15 years, and never used storage, except the small amount provided by a 40-gallon water heater.

But--gasification is a slightly different animal from a conventional wood boiler. It has a nice water jacket, but no bed of coals sitting on the grates to constantly generate heat after the fire has died down. The most efficient, cleanest-burning way to run a gasifier, as I understand it, is full-out, balls-to-the-wall. In most applications, that's probably fine without storage when it's below zero (F), but not when it's in the '20s, '30s and '40s. During warmer weather, you're ahead to run it full-out (say) once or twice a day, and store the heat. And in very cold weather, you've got an additional 400,000 btus sitting in the tank in case you need it.

What sold me on the idea, however, was the prospect of firing the boiler up once a week in the summer, banking the heat in the tank, and then living off free DHW for the rest of the week (or however long it takes to deplete the tank). Over time, the cost of the tank comes back in the form of unlimited, free hot water, plus all the additional benefits (mostly in the form of flexibility) that having a hot water storage tank offers.

But the bottom line is that you can run an EKO or a Tarm without hot water storage. I don't know about the Tarm, but they tell me that the EKO will idle well, so it should be fine. If you check out the FAQ at the Horizon website, they say that the only real downside to running without a tank is that you will use more wood. I was going to buy the boiler and think about putting in the tank later, but when I took a hard look at my setup, I decided I could do the tank for around $500. So that's what I'll be doing this weekend.


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## keyman512us (Apr 18, 2007)

Eric:


> Good points, elk. The greenhouse loop is not really diagrammed completely. What I need is a reservoir (along with a PRV and gauge), since there’s not very much fluid in that loop to begin with. If I use cast iron radiators instead of baseboard for radiant heat, then I probably don’t need a res. I don’t like messing with glycol, but the greenhouse is just too vulnerable to freezing up, and I don’t want to have to drain the system every time I decide to shut ‘er down. I’ll probably just put in a fill tube and top it off as needed, instead of trying to put in a domestic water feed.



Making the "loop" for the greenhouse? Need a resevoir? You got me thinking on that one Eric...When you proposed your original "Propane tank storage idea" for the heated water...

Here's one for ya:

I use one of these type of tanks as a "portable air tank" and sometimes it gets used on "roofing jobs" as a "rooftop reservoir" to run two to three "air gun nailers"...works slick! Before anyone "chimes in" on pressurizing an old tank the one I use was "hydro-tested" by a friend who is licensed to hydro-test fire extinguishers. It holds 130PSI of compressed air...so a 30PSI (heating system design pressure) rating is no problem.

The "greenhouse loop" is going to be a "separately derived" system filled with Glycol? How about an old "forklift propane tank" for a "fill port/reservoir/expansion/manifold tank"??? Plenty of 3/4" fittings to utilize, great way to get the glycol into the system...even a 3/8" fitting for a pressure gauge...
The beauty is you can do everything you need to for short $$$.
These tanks "after the rated service life" expires (time limit set in stone...not by actual fitness for use) are "stripped" of their fill fittings....but are still in "useable" condition. Can be found just about anywhere that re-cycles or processes scrap. I got this one at a local scrap yard...that had over two dozen in the pile:


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## Eric Johnson (Apr 18, 2007)

I like that idea a lot, keyman. I was thinking about putting a couple of cast iron radiators in the greenhouse (instead of baseboards) and I figured those would work as reservoirs, but an old forklift propane tank would really be the ticket.


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## keyman512us (Apr 19, 2007)

Eric...
Do some searching around your area...I'm sure you can find one to "work with". If you can't...just e-mail me...I'm sure with all the "ports open" UPS would accept the "crated tank for shipment"...if not..I'll throw one in the car and drive out for a road trip.

If I can get some time...I'm going to "set one up" to do exactly what you are trying to do...I gotta get ready to tie the radiant loop in for my shed/workshop. 

I'll keep you posted...


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## kc10ken (Apr 19, 2007)

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> The people I've talked to who have gasifiers, both Tarms and EKOs, say that the best way to do it is fire them full bore. So yes, the tank is where you would store your heat. A guy I talked to who has a similar-sized Tarm and an 800-gallon tank says that even when it's below zero, he loads the thing twice a day, max, and can skip a day when it's in the '30s. In the summer, you can run one load of wood per week for your domestic hot water. The Tarm goes out if it has to idle for too long (i.e., when the tank is fully charged and there's no call for heat from the house). The EKO has a feature that blows the fan every ten minutes or so during idle, so that the coals (allegedly) stay alive during idle, as long as there's wood in the firebox. I suspect it smokes a little when that happens, but probably not very much.
> 
> In a way, these are more like conventional gas or oil burners, in that there's no big bed of coals to constantly supply heat. When you make the heat, you have to put it somewhere. Hence the tank. I think it's quite a bit different from an operational standpoint from what I have now.
> 
> ...




Hi.....just wanted to say I've had an EKO-40 Wood Gasification boiler in my basement for 2 years now and I LOVE IT. It works GREAT...just as advertised and I noticed in your post that you said it "allegedly" keeps the hot coals glowing during periods of idle. There's no allegedly about it.....it works ! When I want to shut my boiler down for cleaning or whatever, it takes 4 days at idle to cool down enough for me to clean it out. If I forget to load it and all the wood burns down, there are ALWAYS hot coals in the bottom of the loading chamber...for days.....that ignite nicely any wood I load into it. 

I saved $2800 last winter and $2400 the winter before that!

All my wood is FREE and I LOVE THIS BOILER!


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## Eric Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Welcome to the board, kc. I'm really happy to hear about your experience with the EKO. Rest assured, I'll be hitting you up for your thoughts and ideas.


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## kc10ken (Apr 19, 2007)

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> Welcome to the board, kc. I'm really happy to hear about your experience with the EKO. Rest assured, I'll be hitting you up for your thoughts and ideas.




THANKS!


I'm new to all this so go easy on me, however, I have nothing but GREAT things to say about wood gasification heat after 2 years of heating my house with wood. I'm SHOCKED that more American's are not installing these systems with the price of heating oil and gas being what they are.

Oh well....more free wood for me!


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## Eric Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Do you get any smoke at all when the thing is running? How about on cold startup?


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## kc10ken (Apr 19, 2007)

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> Do you get any smoke at all when the thing is running? How about on cold startup?



NO SMOKE!  When the EKO-40 is gasifying properly (man, you oughtta see this thing working...it really is amazing cause it burns at like 2000 degrees F) there is no smoke at all.

On cold start up of course there will be smoke and sometimes at idle as well. 

Some advice........ALWAYS make sure your chimney is clean. This thing produces a LOT of creosote. I've already had one chimney fire because of it (nothing major, just singed the insulation I had wrapped around the smokestack in my basement). Our smoke alarms went off so my wife went nuts!  I also have a draft inducer installed in the smokestack in my basement, this prevents backfiring and I have found it keeps the boiler from overheating. I don't have a heat storage tank in my system so overheating was a problem when I first got this thing 2 years ago.

ALWAYS keep the combustion chamber clean. Clean it out at least once every 2-3 weeks.

NEVER open the loading chamber real fast while the boiler is running or at idle.....you know what a flashover is? I made that mistake only once....I opened the loading chamber door really fast and the combustible wood gasses flashed over and POOF...almost lost my facial hair !  Open the rear flapper door first, wait a few seconds, then SLOWLY open the loading chamber door, just a crack at first.....give it few seconds......if you see flame inside the chamber then it's OK to open because you already have ignition. If you don't, open the door slowly!

I also installed an additional water circulation pump in the system to help circulate the heated water better. It helped solve my overheating problem and the EKO 40 worked a WHOLE LOT better.

I LOVE this boiler!


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## keyman512us (Apr 19, 2007)

KC welcome to the forum...

Eric:





> But, in the immortal words of my main man, Red Green:
> 
> I’m a man.
> I can change.
> ...



...Is Red Green still on??? 

"...Time to take out the 'Handymans secret weapon..Duct tape'..."lol

"...If women don't find you handsome...they outta at least find ya' handy...Keep your stick on the ice.."


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## Eric Johnson (Apr 20, 2007)

Red's on our local PBS station, but I haven't seen it for awhile, so maybe not no more.

Hey keyman, I'm going to be traveling through Worcester in early May on my way to Maine. If you want to sell me one of those propane tanks, let me know and maybe I'll swing by and pick it up--and check out your boiler. I'm thinking a tank like that would be a great place to hang the PRV, the TP gauge, etc.


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## keyman512us (Apr 20, 2007)

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> Red's on our local PBS station, but I haven't seen it for awhile, so maybe not no more.
> 
> Hey keyman, I'm going to be traveling through Worcester in early May on my way to Maine. If you want to sell me one of those propane tanks, let me know and maybe I'll swing by and pick it up--and check out your boiler. I'm thinking a tank like that would be a great place to hang the PRV, the TP gauge, etc.


I'll send a PM and keep in touch...I registered for the EXPO today...Might be going up to Bangor on either the Friday or Sat...gotta work out the details...my buddy George (of the jungle tree Svc) wants to go...

Please PM me any Info/Itinerary on the EXPO...also/by all means "Don't be a stranger when you venture up this way"..."Traveling Tree folks' are welcome in these here parts"


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## Nicholas (Apr 20, 2007)

kc10ken said:
			
		

> Eric Johnson said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am looking into Gasif wood boilers (Tarm, greenwood), but now do to your experiance I am confussed ?? both Tarm and Greenwood claim they produce NO creosote and have a clean burn, clean the fire chamber once a year, etc. ???????
If Your experiance is how they are, Why pay all that money when an OWB will do the same thing ?

I'll have to admit, after Your comments, I have that "back to the drawing board" feeling.
Bruce is not going to like this !!


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## Eric Johnson (Apr 20, 2007)

kc actually owns one, so he's more qualified to answer your question, but here's my understanding of how most gasifiers work:

You get a clean burn when the gasification process is underway, which is to say any time the boiler is operating under load and producing heat. And when it's gasifying, it's also operating at about twice the efficiency of your typical OWB. The only time you're going to get smoke or creosote in the stack is on cold startup (before gasification can begin) and during idle. What happens during idle is that the gasification chamber is bypassed and any smoke generated in the firebox goes up the stack, where it can form creosote. You will also get creosote in the firebox under normal operation, since the creosote-laden smoke lingers there before being pulled down into the gasification chamber, and some of it inevitably sticks to the walls.

So the trick to getting a clean, smokeless fire with a gasifier is to maximize the amount of time that it is running full-bore, while minimizing the idle periods. This is a lot easier with a hot water storage tank or some other heat buffer. You can still run a gasifier with no storage, but you will burn more wood and produce some smoke and creosote, especially during warmer weather. I think the Greenwood gets around the water storage issue with a huge refractory mass built into the boiler. Tarm recommends using a storage tank. There are some design differences between the Tarm and the EKO which makes it easier to start the EKO back up after idle, but with some smoke and creosote as the trade-off. That's my understanding anyway, without having used or seen either in operation.

So to answer your question, the reason to pick a gasifier over an OWB is that for about the same price, you get a clean burn and will use half as much wood.


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## kc10ken (Apr 20, 2007)

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> kc actually owns one, so he's more qualified to answer your question, but here's my understanding of how most gasifiers work:
> 
> You get a clean burn when the gasification process is underway, which is to say any time the boiler is operating under load and producing heat. And when it's gasifying, it's also operating at about twice the efficiency of your typical OWB. The only time you're going to get smoke or creosote in the stack is on cold startup (before gasification can begin) and during idle. What happens during idle is that the gasification chamber is bypassed and any smoke generated in the firebox goes up the stack, where it can form creosote. You will also get creosote in the firebox under normal operation, since the creosote-laden smoke lingers there before being pulled down into the gasification chamber, and some of it inevitably sticks to the walls.
> 
> ...


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## Eric Johnson (Apr 20, 2007)

Thanks for clearing that up, Ken. I find your thoughts to be really helpful to my understanding of how this thing works.

Does the wood gas burn when the boiler is idling, or does the smoke just pass through the heat exchange tubes and up the stack unburned? How can it go down through the combustion nozzle if the fan is off?

The Model 60 I'm getting has a handle on the side that allows you to clean the heat exchanger tubes from the front of the unit by moving the handle back and forth. The guy I'm buying it from said you should yank on that handle every time you load the stove.


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## kc10ken (Apr 20, 2007)

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> Thanks for clearing that up, Ken. I find your thoughts to be really helpful to my understanding of how this thing works.
> 
> Does the wood gas burn when the boiler is idling, or does the smoke just pass through the heat exchange tubes and up the stack unburned? How can it go down through the combustion nozzle if the fan is off?
> 
> The Model 60 I'm getting has a handle on the side that allows you to clean the heat exchanger tubes from the front of the unit by moving the handle back and forth. The guy I'm buying it from said you should yank on that handle every time you load the stove.



The wood gas does NOT burn when it's idling.  I had a problem with backfiring because the flapper door in the back that opens the loading chamber to the smokestack had a bad seal and was allowing air (oxygen) into the loading chamber while the wood was glowing and smoking ....POOF...backfire. I discovered the bad seal during a cleaning and replaced it.  I also found that the backfiring problem was worse when I burned small, very dry logs. For some reason my EKO-40 runs GREAT on very large logs of fresh, moist wood. 

The smoke created at idle does go down through the nozzle, and then up the tubes and out the smokestack. There is so little of this smoke generated that you barely see it coming out of your chimney outside your house....it's minimal. Are you sure about that handle? My EKO-40 has only one handle on the front left side and it's for opening the round flapper valve in the back of the loading chamber to the smokestack.  I've also experienced flashovers when opening that flapper valve. Flashovers seem most prominent right after a gassification (blower) cycle as the EKO-40 goes into idle mode. I'd be REAL careful opening the loading chamber door or the flapper valve right after a gassification cycle because of flashovers. 

Those heat exchanger tubes do get clogged up. My EKO-40 came with 3 long iron stokers. One has a round head on it designed for cleaning out those tubes. I clean them about every 3 weeks when I clean out my unit.  It's a dirty job....but I've saved well over $5000 in 2 years and since I live out in the middle of nowhere in upstate New York I have enough free firewood to last me into the 23rd century!


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## Eric Johnson (Apr 20, 2007)

Here's the handle on a Model 40. Orlan makes "super" and "standard" versions of the EKO boilers. The "super" has the handle for cleaning the tubes. They tell me that now that's all they import.

Where you at in NYS? As you can see, I'm just south of Utica. I'm the guy with the 20 cords of dry beech sitting in his backyard.


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## kc10ken (Apr 20, 2007)

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> Here's the handle on a Model 40. Orlan makes "super" and "standard" versions of the EKO boilers. The "super" has the handle for cleaning the tubes. They tell me that now that's all they import.
> 
> Where you at in NYS? As you can see, I'm just south of Utica. I'm the guy with the 20 cords of dry beech sitting in his backyard.



OK then.....never really took a close look at the EKO-60. man that's a huge boiler!

I'm in Goshen.

20 cords? Holy Moly! I only used about 6 cords this winter! I usually don't fire her up until the temp goes down below 40 degrees.

Don't split your logs too small.....I found she runs better on larger logs (6-8" diameter).


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## webbie (Apr 21, 2007)

Here's the video I wrote, produced and star in about the Tarm Gasification boilers:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=110585530348764525&hl=en

Have some laughs at the good lines in there! When I have time, I'll string the funny scenes together in a short version - until then, you have to watch the whole ten minutes:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=110585530348764525&hl=en


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## webbie (Apr 23, 2007)

Here's the southern equiv. of the Tarm Video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3005961029383795932&hl=en


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## begreen (Apr 23, 2007)

:lol:  :lol: pure southern comfort


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## Eric Johnson (Apr 23, 2007)

That's cute, Craig. You should check out the Adobe boiler video to the right of this one. It's pretty cool. I might run over to the plant when I'm up in Bangor for a look-see.

A couple of observations on your Tarm video:

1.) I think Grizzly Adams should have tossed that cigarette into the boiler instead of carefully putting back into his pocket. Or was that a joint?

2.) You took a completely gratuitous swipe at the logging industry--using fear tactics in a craven attempt to sell stoves. You mentioned a shortage of timber as an environmental reason to buy a Tarm boiler and thus burn less wood. I think burning less wood is a good idea for a number of reasons, but there's no shortage of low-grade timber in this country. On the contrary. What we should be doing is cutting more low-grade timber, creating healthier forests in the process and letting our better trees grow longer. Good markets for fuelwood, pulpwood and other low-grade products take the pressure off sawtimber, in other words.

A depressing number of people seem to equate wood burning with "murdering" trees and clearcutting. Statements like the one you made in the video serve to perpetuate misconceptions like that.

Other than that, I think it was a pretty informative video. Hard to argue with the disappearing smoke.


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## webbie (Apr 23, 2007)

Yeah, I figured you'd pick that one up Eric!

Then again, on a worldwide basis it probably has some accuracy. Europe cut down 100% of it's forests for heat, cooking, building and charcoal. Logging is a BIG problem in many countries where virgin forests and rain forests and being removed - as the video says - "Far faster than they are growing".

Even in the USA we cut down the vast majority of the forests - for heat in inefficient fireplaces as well as building.

So, in the video, it's a quick way of saying that our natural resources all need to be used efficiently because there are so many of us and a relatively finite amount of them. 

I'm not familiar with current numbers, but I assume we are still importing a lot of lumber from Canada, Europe, etc. which may also mean we are using more than is being grown here. It's a subject for a different thread, but it would be nice to know the actual numbers as far as lumber, paper, etc.

Of course, firewood is hardly even a blimp on the chart and today (in the USA) is not responsible for deforestation.


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## Eric Johnson (Apr 23, 2007)

Everybody's got numbers to prove whatever case they're trying to make. However, it's a generally accepted fact that forest in America are growing at a much faster rate than they are being cut. That's been the trend for generations, as previously-cleared farmland reverts back into forest. Just drive the length of the Mass. Pike or the NYS Thruway and try to tell me we're running out of trees.

I agree with your point about deforestation in some parts of the world. That's what they get for following our example.

In this country, however, the problem is more a question of poor (or no) management, resulting in catastrophic wildfires, disease outbreaks and insect infestations, not overcutting as a rule. And the more forestland you either lock, up or neglect to manage, or watch burn, the more pressure it puts on the remaining acreage. Our appetite for wood grows, in other words, as we're actively taking more and more of it out of circulation.

Looking back to Europe, you only have to go as far as Scandinavia to see how to intelligently manage a forest for a wide variety of uses. 

People forget: It's a renewable resource.


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## webbie (Apr 23, 2007)

Yeah, that's why I like the idea of the wood burning electric plant near here - that will burn all the culled logs, etc.

The second, third and fourth growth forests are in horrible shape, because as you mention they are just growing like weeds. It's rare that you see anyone managing this stuff. Someday, however, as other resources get more scarce, we'll be more like Europe and make the most out of every piece of woodland.

Funny, but my local 2x4's often come from eastern Europe! 

Plot all this stuff out, and you can see a good future for biomass - from composite lumber and OSB to pellets, there are lots of uses for all those "weeds".

As to firewood, in my 20+ years selling stoves, I never heard folks complain that we are cutting down forests for fuel wood. I think most people understand that firewood is usually just the thinnings or is the wood which is too small, crooked or otherwise unsuitable for other uses. We could probably increase fuel wood use by 10X and still not put much of a strain on the supply - most trees in urban and suburban areas these days are made into mulch just to get rid of 'em easier.


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## Gooserider (Jan 13, 2010)

Don't know how it hung out so long where it was, but figured we really ought to move this thread into the boiler room...

Gooserider


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