# Trying to be realistic - about the prices of masonry heaters, etc.



## elkimmeg (Aug 25, 2007)

Over the past few months I have observed numerous recommendations for masonry heaters, although a great way to heat a home. I feel this poster has missed the mark.
 Most are inquiring about a $2000 stove . Telling them to purchase an $18,000 massive concrete /stove alternative is off base. That’s only the cost of the installation not including the support base to hold it up possibly incorporating part of the concrete foundation is needed to support tons of masonry mass the space constraints also have to be considered it could end up costing 25k I wish we all had that kind of money for this option but most don’t it works best at the planning stages of new construction It would be a very costly retro remodeling fit

Another common myth is expounded all too often the  2 cu ft fire box is needed to burn 8 hours for years I got decent heat out of a modern stove that did not have that large a fire box but 1.75 cu ft It burned clean effectively and efficiently Many Osburn 1800’s will burn close to 8 productive hours with a 1.8 cu ft firebox. I agree a larger firebox will burn longer but the airflow is engineered as such to allow even smaller firebox stoves to perform well coming close to that 8 hours burn. Think of the little engine that could. 

 I think we all have to measure success differently and be realistic wood stoves are space heaters they do not create airflows designed to reach remote bedrooms. I do not subscribe to overheating one uncomfortably out of an area, that residual heat makes it to bedrooms.

To some if the stove can carry the heating load to 10 degrees that could be success enough. To size a stove for once a year or a cold night once in 20 years is overkill.

Even home heating systems are designed to maintain 72 degrees when it is zero out in New England climate zone.

I believe it is best to match the stove that will accomplish realistic goals a stove that can be run efficiently. Over sizing it does not insure efficient operations

 I mean I saw a post recommendation for a masonry heater in a 320 sq ft cabin. The heater would cost more that the Cabin


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## DiscoInferno (Aug 25, 2007)

elkimmeg said:
			
		

> Another common myth is expounded all too often the  2 cu ft fire box is needed to burn 8 hours for years I got decent heat out of a modern stove that did not have that large a fire box but 1.75 cu ft It burned clean effectively and efficiently Many Osburn 1800’s will burn close to 8 productive hours with a 1.8 cu ft firebox. I agree a larger firebox will burn longer but the airflow is engineered as such to allow even smaller firebox stoves to perform well coming close to that 8 hours burn. Think of the little engine that could.



Well, hats off to you and Osburn, because even with a firebox completely stuffed with black locust my 2cf Ultima will not be giving off much useful heat past 5 or 6 hours even on the lowest air setting.  There will still be plenty of coals at 8, 9, 10 hours, but not much productive heat; even the room with the stove will cool down.  Mind you, it's hard to actually get anything approaching a real 2cf of wood into a "2cf" firebox (and only about 1.5 is under the baffle), and perhaps my splits are too small and my 25'+ chimney drafts a little too well.  But I had kind of gathered that my experience was typical here, at least for a non-cat, non-soapstone stove.  I don't need 3.5cf, certainly, but 2.5cf would be nice.


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## elkimmeg (Aug 25, 2007)

Like many post I present, it is open to discussion ,one size does not fit all  I think we all agree to size a stove for real world conditions ,which means 25 to 33% more than manufacture claims.

 You may be right ,with your draft requiring an in line damper to slow the draft down and prolong your burn time. 

I really think it is a combination of a well designed secondary air control (thermatically controled)  working in unison witha  Cat combustor the gives smaller fire boxes longer burn times


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## MrGriz (Aug 25, 2007)

elkimmeg said:
			
		

> I really think it is a combination of a well designed secondary air control (thermatically controled)  working in unison witha  Cat combustor the gives smaller fire boxes longer burn times



Now I'm confused.  I don't believe the Osburn 1800 has either a Cat or thermatically controled secondary air.....

I agree that one size does not fit all, and that bigger is not always necessary or even a good idea when it comes to a stove or insert.  There are also a number of factors other than size to consider when selecting the right stove for the job.  The size and more importantly the layout of the space to be heated, the chimney set up, the goals of the user and I'm sure I'm leaving out a number of other things.

I think our zeal to help someone with a question sometimes leads to a quick response without considering all the facts.  In fact, if you look at the first response of a few of the veterains here to the inevitable "what stove should I buy question", you see them asking questions rather than offering a quick solution.

Elk's point is a good one.  The less than 2.0 cu ft firebox has it's place, just like a gassification boiler or masonry heater does.  The ideal solution might also be one that is out of financial reach or one that just doesn't make sense.  The masonry heater, for example, might be a good option for someone in the design stages of a home that has the right layout, making it an option.  It also might be the cat's butt in an existing application, but the cost and effort of retrofitting the structure put it out of the picture.  It's a matter of evaluating the situation and suggesting workable options.


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## Gooserider (Aug 25, 2007)

I am an advocate for the MH's as the concept to me seems like an excellent one, but I agree with Elk that they are not always appropriate.  I think they are a good idea to consider in NEW construction, but don't think they are a good retrofit candidate in most cases.  OTOH, if one is putting in a centrally located masonry fireplace, I see no reason not to make it an MH instead - The numbers I've seen suggest that an MH is very expensive when considered on it's own, but if one is already planning a masonry fireplace, the MH is a relatively inexpensive upgrade that would be a big increase in efficiency, plus the other advantages like having the ability to include a bake oven in the structure, along with heat exchangers for radiant floor heating and / or DHW

In the case of the cabin you mentioned, I believe the poster was talking about wanting to build a masonry fireplace anyway, which is why I suggested the upgrade - and gave reasons not to want it as well...  I also tried to get him to think in terms of locating the stove and stack internally rather than against an outside wall.

However I do agree that an MH needs to be seen in the correct perspective - sometimes they can be worth considering just to get "out of the box" thought processes going.

As to the stove size question, I just know that we seem to get far more "it's to small" complaints than we do oversize issues - thus I tend to encourage thinking bigger.  I also don't think 7 hours of heat and getting up cold or having to get up early to feed the stove and then going back to bed is a great approach compared to 8+ hours of real heat...  Thus I will probably continue to suggest the 2 cf firebox (Which I would consider the Osborn to be in that class, albeit on the light side)

Gooserider


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## BrotherBart (Aug 25, 2007)

I prefer the big firebox as much for the fact that it gives me a little working room in there as for the burn times. And on the best stove packing day of a person's life they are going to be doing well to get more than 1.5 cubic feet of wood splits into a 1.75 foot firebox stacked East/West. Not even considering the space taken up by the coal bed and ash. And the max BTUs of 1.5 cubic feet is the max BTUs of 1.5 cubic feet no matter what contraptions you have on the stove.


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## DiscoInferno (Aug 25, 2007)

elkimmeg said:
			
		

> Like many post I present, it is open to discussion ,one size does not fit all  I think we all agree to size a stove for real world conditions ,which means 25 to 33% more than manufacture claims.
> 
> You may be right ,with your draft requiring an in line damper to slow the draft down and prolong your burn time.
> 
> I really think it is a combination of a well designed secondary air control (thermatically controled)  working in unison witha  Cat combustor the gives smaller fire boxes longer burn times



I agree that secondary air control and the cat would help a lot.  My burn times are probably reduced because way too much wood is burned in the first hour or two; even though the primary is basically off the (fixed) secondary provides a lot of air and a pretty roaring fire.  But without the cat, I need it going pretty good to fully shut down the primary; otherwise it snuffs right out (so I know my air control is working and my seals are tight).  This actually matches BIS's literature - they show a temperature bar graph for an overnight burn that starts at 800 degrees in the first hour, drops to about 575 for hours 2 and 3, and then is less than 400 by hour 4 and less than 300 by hour 7.  Temps under 300-400 simply don't heat much.  I assume a cat and a controlled secondary or a greater thermal mass (soapstone) would help even that out some.

Despite my complaining nature, I knew when I bought the unit that it probably wouldn't really burn 8-12 hours (they only claim 6-8), and depending on which literature you look at it's only rated for somewhere between 1000-2000sqft (I'm heating 2000), so frankly it has exceeded expectations in some ways.  But it seems only fair to warn new stove buyers that claim they want long overnight burns that the "standard" non-cat, non-controlled secondary, non-soapstone EPA stove needs to be somewhat larger than 2cf for that.


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## webbie (Aug 25, 2007)

A lot of folks spend $8,000 on a masonry fireplace, then 3,000 or more on an installed insert later.....to these folks, a masonry heater would have looked good!

Others spend 20 grand on furniture for one room, or on tools for a workshop where they pursue a hobby.

I rarely think of fire as "heat for the $$", but as an enhancement in life style and an indication of certain values. 

I would definitely consider a masonry heater if I had the place for it and was going to be in a home for the rest of my days (15+ years, etc.)...

But there are also a number of "in-betweens" - such as using the built-in units from Magnum and Kozy and surrounding them with masonry. Take some design hints from the pros and build the whole thing inside the house envelope......the masonry will complement the heat. This can be done to a lesser degree with zero clearance built-ins - surround them with some mass!

Then there are the Tulikis, which as I remember were 5K to 9K or so.

I guess it depends on how the stock market is doing, interest rates, windfalls (inheritances, lottery, etc.) - if the budget allows, there are always more options.


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## webbie (Aug 25, 2007)

BTW, by acting as the GC, getting the permits, and doing other arrangements, I think I could retrofit a MH for about 15K. But Elk is right - if I had to simply pay all the costs, 20K+ for a retrofit is more like it.


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## KeithO (Aug 25, 2007)

This guy built a russian fireplace (also a masonry heater) for $1000  http://my4acres.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=45&Itemid=57

If one sticks with a proven design and does it DIY it can be done for a reasonable price.  I agree that the home plan has to be suitable, because as much as I want one, it would be a huge PITA fitting one in my existing house.

I have been looking for information on this project http://mha-net.org/docs/v8n2/wildac04a.htm because it looks like a really simple masonry heater that won't weigh 2 tons or more

Keith


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## elkimmeg (Aug 26, 2007)

KeithO said:
			
		

> This guy built a russian fireplace (also a masonry heater) for $1000  http://my4acres.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=45&Itemid=57
> 
> If one sticks with a proven design and does it DIY it can be done for a reasonable price.  I agree that the home plan has to be suitable, because as much as I want one, it would be a huge PITA fitting one in my existing house.
> 
> ...



 Keith before you get any ideas  this fails so many ways to sunday, It would take me pages to explain. You bet it was done without a permit. No mention of support of additional weight  where the hearth supports the crtiical mass And I doubt it work remotely as well as he is claiming remember it on an exterior wall  What a bunch of BS  Total BS andit only cost him $1000 for that BS


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## webbie (Aug 26, 2007)

He probably lives in an unincorporated area in East Tennessee.....might be no inspector to be found anywhere!

Never the less, it is impossible from afar to see exactly what the situation is, but it does appear that he is a relatively careful guy - has clean-outs, room for expansion in the door, etc. - Since it is in Tn, it is relatively warm (as he mentions) - he also mentions that he built on top of existing foundation which looked quite substantial (in his view).

Whatever the case, he did it for $1,000 with materials left over - OK, so maybe it would cost $2,000 or $3,000 or even $5,000 with some help and some additional work and materials - point being that it does not have to cost 25K.

I cheer the guy for his attempt at doing a decent job - I have seen a LOT worse.


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## BrotherBart (Aug 26, 2007)

If I still had a slab foundation I would be collecting materials right now. When I was living in the house on the slab I was burning really efficient and safe. Franklin stove on mortared bricks on top of carpet with wood paneling right behind it. Top of the line burning in 1977.

Larry, Moe and Curly from the stove store did the straight up pipe install. Before I moved I went up and found charred joists in the attic around the pipe.

And yes, it was permitted and inspected. Inspector thought it was great.


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## KeithO (Aug 26, 2007)

See the attached costing from Maine Wood Heat for the Albiecore masonry heater core.   A concrete foundation + brick facing + class A chimney is what needs to be added.  I don't see that a masonry chimney has any benefits other than percieved appearance by "high end" clients.  

Even DIY, this will still be more expensive than a wood stove, but I don't agree that one needs to spend $12k or $20k to have a masonry heater if you are prepared to do some of the work yourself.  It is essential to work with a proven design, or one is courting disaster.   In Jackson county the permit fee is based on the value of the installation so might cost $100-150 (a lot more than the $35 I have been reading here).


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## KeithO (Aug 26, 2007)

For the skeptics (referring to the cost sde of the equation) here is another story that should give most of us pause to think about the way we chose to live our lives: http://www.hollowtop.com/cls_html/cls.html and http://www.hollowtop.com/cls_html/limited.htm (in more detail)

Amongst all the other interesting data, there is this story http://www.grannysstore.com/Do-It-Yourself/masonry_stoves.htm of their russian fireplace that they also built for $1000. Considering that they built their entire house for $10/sq ft, this demonstrates that it is possible to do good things on a budget if the right approach is taken (and the sweat equity is added).

Keith


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## elkimmeg (Aug 26, 2007)

The guy used common fiberglass insulation to insulate his liner  and no one finds fault and praises the guy. 

 when I review a plan for new ci onstruction we requrie an engineering stamp on it before approval that stamp includes fireplace and chimney construction

 there are no provisions in code that allows  non engineered  alterations to fireplaces. Argue as you may, but please provide the required language for approval.

I think it may work or be safe is not to be debated . I require known enginered approvals.  I know already the guy is using green wood and has inappriopately used common fiberglass insulation.
 In all the hearths that hac ve been built in my homes or that I have inspected none were designed to carry additional weight . most are poured concrete held with naild driven into the floor joist double box and headers I read all his discriptions and nothing is mentioned about additional support of the added bricks and concrete mass sitting on his hearth Again another situation never engineered to support  that weight.  If one wants to advocate such installations without considering basic structual considerations than all my cautiions I might as well be talking to my dog If one want toadvocate using common insulation in a stiuation beyond it tested range then again I am waisting my time here If one want to advoccate total dissregard for structual and un engineered modifications then again I am wasting my time here but please do not do it in my town.  I guess I miss read the intent of this forum and the effort of life safety.  I take it life safety is but a minor issue to most. and that advising  one to do so I'm wasting my time to ones that think it might work. My suggestion to them is to stick their necks out and sign off such situations .pretty bold to do so when one is not going to be sued for negilgence


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## KeithO (Aug 26, 2007)

Elk, for new work in an insured home one has to follow the ASTM provisions, that will take care of your concerns.  Also, if one follows exactly the instructions in the MHA heater plan portfolio, it shoud not allow scope for deviation. Anything complying with the ASTM provisions should be considered "engineering approved " or not ?   Few MHA registered masons are engineers, so how do they get engineering approval ?

The builder listed does not promote the methods he used but offers his experience in case it will benefit others who may be planning their own project.

Keith


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## elkimmeg (Aug 26, 2007)

If a situation arises  that I suspect does not comply to code or it is beyond my expertise then I can require a mechanical or structual engineering company to inspect it  and asertain its approval.

It is within my right to require such inspections wheter the mason was licenced or not. In my state all masons working or fireplaces are required to be licenced.

yes most masons are not engineers nor are framers plumbers electricians yet they are allowed to work. 

In the case in point this guy admits to mixing cement at age 12 as his only experience with mansory. I would find it real hard to approve such a brief experience as aceptable engineered practices. You on the other hand, do not have to assume the responsibility of signature of approval and risk nothing, while you advocate such practtices
 Plain and simple what is your point? To advocate un engineered designs and modifications without  backup structual data, from aperson without any masonry experience.

Ain't going to happen under my watch


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## KeithO (Aug 26, 2007)

Elk, why would you not regard the "official" MHA plans portfolio as "engineered" ?  These plans represent the best and most thoroughly researched designs around and they are advocated by MHA for site built heaters.  Does the question then not become the "execution" and whether or not the mason / owner/builder has stuck correctly to the plans ?   Forget the example cited for the moment and imagine how you would work with a concientious quality and safety concious homeowner who was trying only to manage the cost of the instalation.

I can see an owner / builder taking a lot longer to complete the job than a qualified mason, but at the cost of his own labor, it could be acceptable to tear anything back down that didn't go right the first time and fix it.   We have tens of thousands of people building homebuilt airplanes and most of them are neither AP mechanics nor engineers.   And the fatality rate amongst homebuilts is no different than factory certified aircraft. You'd have to admit that this represents a far higher level of complexity and potential consequences.  Just like with your job, the airframe is certified as airworthy by a DAR who also can and will reject the application if anything is not in order.

I should find it interesting that more homebuilt aircraft have been built in the US than masonry heaters.   A project of this kind is within the means of the average person to do if he is willing to stick exactly to the instructions and redo anything that his friendly inspector doesn't agree with.  I can see that full ceramic chimneys pose a much more significant structural project and as I said before, that is not something I would ever tackle, but doing a regular class A chimney is not a work of art.  Most of the applications I have seen have a class A chimney and the masonry heater is only 8-10ft high at the most.  Based on those proportions and assuming a proper foundation, the structural aspect should be no problem at all and easy for the inspector to thoroughly evaluate at the appropriate intervals.

Elk, I have never advocated un engineered designs nor modifications, and have time and again referred to the "MHA plans portfolio" without any deviation.  Both of the people cited have done extensive research on the subject and the first example to me was controversial because of his modifications for sure.   The second has demonstrated that he is prepared to do extensive planning prior to getting to work and based on his slip rock technique and workshops he offers has to be considered a pretty competent mason by anybody in the business.

What I oppose, is the notion that "only" licensed masons are capable of building a masonry heater.  That is BS.  Anyone with a few brain cells, some integrity and a little gumption can follow directions.  This line of thinking smacks of outright union policy protectionism.  Is the US going to become like Australia, where "only" licensed electricians are allowed to change a light fitting ?  Or only licensed plumbers are allowed to fit an additional faucet ?  Or a licensed carpenter is needed to fit a kitchen countertop or new cabinets ?  God help us if that comes to pass.


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## begreen (Aug 26, 2007)

Having a pro install these days does not necessarily mean one is going to get a great job. I've seen a lot of crews that talk the talk, but know about 50% of what is needed to do a job well.

Although I've never sided a house, our painter tells us that the residing my son and I did is some of the best work he's painted in recent years. The reason being, we didn't rush it and if something was wrong, we fixed it then and there. Instead of taking shortcuts on trim and around crowns, we templated and carefully coped the beveled siding to fit. Looks sharp, but not too often seen these days of rough cuts and unplaned, unsanded  trim.


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## elkimmeg (Aug 26, 2007)

I hate to tell you this but codes already address plumbing and who is qualified to touch the domesticc side of water issues and he has to be licenced.
 I don't make up the codes we as citizens appoint officials that vote in review codes and approve them.  Currrently I have 3 petitions to change codes on being automatic shut down to HVAC systems tied into smoke alarm systems  Since smoke alarms systems are alreading in place  really its not a big issue the same furnace installed in comercial applications is already preped to be wired in basically about $50 expense. On a state level I have a petition to reconize CSI  certified chimney sweeps as an reconized authorith and evaluator. Code ccalls for a cchimney being inspected prior to a change of use of appliances but code doesnot spell out who is reconized or qualified to do so. Did you know in MA a chimney sweep is not qualified to instsall a wood stove?

Unles he is also licenced construction supervisor and home improvement licenced  Same goes with pellet stove installations the installer has to have a CS licence. My question to the state was,,who would you feel more conmfortable with joe blow CS or a certified Pellet technician makeing the installation?  Some of this language was recently adopted but more work needs to be done. 

Keith On a public forum, where nobody knows who is reading it, As a code official I present code. Out in the field I have to make value judgements based  upon unique situations

Many times the code book  can not be applied..; All forum members that have met me will tell you I do have flexibility in person

Hell I'm a contractor and I don't like all codes either. Some are redundant and petty. Experience has taught me which battles to peruie and which are not worth the effort.

Life safety is not one I compromise..

 Short version of last years battle with unlicenced illegal immigrant labors building a chimney and fire box First of all incorrect materials were used in the fire box. code calls for soild masonry not hollow core blocks. the owner at the time claimed he would fill the blocks with motar what he did not plan on is me taking out the hammer drill and exposing the cavities in the block next to the wood framing menbers.. Same job the other chimney fire place the header was way too low to the exposed fire box digital time stamped photo whas helpfull here. I told them it had to be moved up and wrote that on the back of the building permit card and dated it..

 Wheel it final inspection time I mean the moving trucks are about backing up the driveway.. I asked if the header had been moved up I suspected it was not but just covered up with cultured stone. Should have seen the look on the faces of all wittnessing as I bored a small 1/8" hole in the motar joint, especially when wood shaving started comming out

 I would not mind but this happened to be the largest most expensive home built to date the masonry alone was 180k and for a meare $135 per chimney he used hollow core blocks instead of soild filled...  Naturally all the contruction people were trying to point out to me I was being a hard a** about the woodheader the owners were told It was my fault they could not move in

I'm willing to be there was a real discussion when I produced time dated photos and notes on the back of the building card 2 months prior this was going to be an issue.

This same home I accidently discovered that the underground electrical service was not burrried but only a couple of inches of wood chips on top of it covering it. Not only that once this was discovered the service wire was only 200 amps for the 400 amps service. IT was purly and accident I found the wire. I liked the way the wood chips looked and reached down to pick some up
 that is how I discovered the service wire. After finding that coupled with the fire place issues nobody was pointing a finger at me anymore.  That digital camera can save  a lot of explaining on my part, or create a hell of a lot more for the construction company supervising that job.   What did I get out of all this $30 my inspection fee. I think this might have been  the best value these owners got  pretty good when one pays 2.3 mill for your home.  To9 those new here about a year ago there  are post where I tell a more complete accounting of what happende here where I backed down 2 engineering stamps because I knew it was not right and posed life safety issues and I would not hide behind the stamp.


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## begreen (Aug 26, 2007)

[rant]
Safety and quality should be the guide with any installation. But to answer the first question - undoubtedly I would rather that I installed the pellet stove instead of a local "pro". Hiring a pro doesn't always mean  that the job will be done professionally. Nor is having an inspection if the inspector is busy or doesn't know much about stove installs. Agreed this combo should guarantee the job is well done, but sadly that sometimes is not true. 

I've had two "pro" installs in this house. First was lining the old chimney. "Pro" was a local chimney sweep, licensed and bonded. The installation, while using good pipe, had -no- block off plate, fiberglass stuffed around the pipe at the end of the throat of the flue and I found when I went to replace the smoke dragon a couple years later - no direct connection to the stove! No inspection either, wasn't required back then for a reline (not sure about now). When I replaced the old Majestic insert, I did the pellet stove install and did it right. It never smoked, and the stove was safe and problem free. 

The second install was last year. This time the installation was by the stove store's own crew. As pointed out by the forum crew here, they never put in the fire block. Also, I found a couple joints with only one screw. I had them come back and the fix was by their spa repairman. I took it out and did it right the next weekend. If I hadn't been so tied up with the foundation repair I would have preferred to do the whole thing myself. Inspection was a quick glance. 

As noted, code and inspection requirements and inspector quality varies from state to state. When the government forces us to accept sub-standard work as compared to doing it well ourself, we are in trouble. Yes, if you do it yourself, you should take the time to do it right. And it's really good to have a qualified inspection done. But the government often can't keep itself straight these days, much less a stovepipe. 

Sorry Elk, but many communities are not fortunate enough to have someone with your integrity and knowledge behind the clipboard or the hammer. 
[/rant]


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## KeithO (Aug 26, 2007)

Anytime something is not done right, it ought to be torn up and done right immediately.   It doesn't sound like your "trouble customer" had financial limitations, just another greedy man trying to cut every corner.  Usually, one can pick up these vibes within 5 minutes of meeting someone.  There are a lot of us out there Elk, who you could have a perfectly reasonable relationship with and who would do everything possible to do a good safe job.   Thus far, I personally have had far more disapointments with "professionals" than good experiences.   My neighbor has been a contractor for some time and he says things got to the point where he was spending 25% of his time doing warranty work on things his subcontractors had messed up.   Anything I do myself I know exactly where to look to assign blame - just look in the mirror.
Keith


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## elkimmeg (Aug 26, 2007)

Keith I like what you bring to the forum knowledge and a willingness to help others Keep. up up exactly what you are doing

In the donor program other members have worked with doing installations  I have gotten to know them as they to me Sucess so far has been such good working relationships that now extend way beyond the forum Keymay now does the wiring for me on the latest addition  plus got to swing the hammer with me. Turns out he is a good electrician kind I s wuld hire time and time again

I don't have to say that but it is true On his side he got prompely paid as any good subcontractor should

Keith If you were in my neck of the woods we would be enlisting you to take GVA place in the donor program And for those that do not know this

 steps were taken this week to help  someone that really could use a break in life. We are not done yet I got a lot of things happening now but I do intend to continue  the" unofficial donor program Taking smoke dragons of yesteryear and adding clean epa Compliant stoves.  Right now the only question to ask is if we will announce or report our efforts on the forum, since it has not been endorsed or un official  The lsast recevier thanks the entire forun for our efforts as he fired in his first breakin fire You guys know the death trap we took out of service


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## GVA (Aug 27, 2007)

elkimmeg said:
			
		

> Keith If you were in my neck of the woods we would be enlisting you to take GVA place in the donor program


 hh: I'm being replaced hh: 


You guy's up here in the northeast can't get rid of me till I sell my house


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## KeithO (Aug 27, 2007)

Well, I'm going to be stuck in Michigan for a while still.   We're working on 2010 (on road) diesel emissions right now and a good bit of that work will carry over to the entire off road diesel market (agriculture, garden tractors, earthmoving, gen sets etc etc) in 2012 and beyond.   My plan is to buy some land in Colorado before it is all gone so that I have somewhere higher, drier and sunnier to look forward to in a few years.  

I figure we should be able to build our energy efficient house out there virtually mortgage free in 5 years or so (I didn't commit to exactly how many years the building process would take...)  And it WILL have a masonry heater and a suitable floor plan and an indoor greenhouse etc etc.  I'm presuming I won't be in the automotive sector anymore, so looking at other forms of "gainful employment" to substitute.  I already have a basic metalworking shop together (mill, lathe and surface grinder), but its not my intention to get into metal work of the production kind, rather for doing prototypes of various inventions and for building machines to do other work.

Elk, just so you know, my speciality is the characterization of the ceramic mats that hold the substrates in place in automotive catalytic converters.  We have built specialized lab equipment to measure how these materials age when subjected to repeated thermal cycling to temperatures of up to 1000ºC.  So when it comes to choice of materials for gasketing in masonry heaters, I have some experience that you will look hard to find elsewhere.  I have also developed predictive tools for the behavior of the ceramic mats and also for modeling of heat flow based on dimensions, material types, radiant and convective heat transfer to ambient air.  Our company just won one of 12 PACE awards for 2007 as presented by Automotive News in their annual ceremony in Detroit, for our predictive process for the 2007 Diesel emissions systems where we cleaned up and captured 100% of the diesel pickup market (GM Duramax, Ford Powerstroke, Dodge Cummins - we make the emissions systems for all those trucks from 2007)  We added roughly $1bn to top line revenue from this year onward through new business.  I guess that right now we are one of the few companies in Michigan that is actually doing well.

You are to be commended for your donor program.  I haven't heard of anything similar on our area.  As you can see,  I'm still trying to find my feet legally in this construction industry and figure out what I can and can't do.  Your advice is always appreciated.

Keith


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## Gooserider (Aug 27, 2007)

Hmmm  Keith - to hijack the thread a bit and pick your brains on your expertise area - I am wondering if you know of any sort of ultra high temperature adhesives that could be used to repair / rebuild / restore the refractory package material in a VC cat stove?

I have an elderly VC Encore 0028 that I'm attempting to rebuild, with the most questionable part being the refractory package which appears to be mostly present, but has broken in several places.  I'm not sure just what the material is, but it's a grey fibrous material that is very soft, and looks sort of like the grey cardboard stuff that some ceiling tiles and wallboards are made out of.  It wants to break if you look at it harshly...

Do you know of any sort of adhesive or other material that could be used to patch this material back together?

It would need to be something that could withstand the temperatures in the cat combustion chamber.

It would need to be available in a reasonable sized package (a few ounces?) to civilian type folks (as opposed to those in the industry)

It would have to be something that could be used in a home shop environment (i.e. no special tools, bake ovens, or the like)

It would need to be safe enough to be used by a person without tons of safety gear, and be safe to use inside a stove - pass the "Elk test"

Gooserider


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## KeithO (Aug 27, 2007)

Do you have any pictures of the stuff and where it goes ?  Is it used for gasketing or for actually stopping heat transmission to the outside ?  Is it exposed directly to combustion gasses or not ?

There are lot of vermiculite based materials used, particularly for the catalytic element, but there are much better materials available today.  Its all a matter of how long it has to last.

Post some pictures and I can try to figure out what it is.


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## KeithO (Aug 27, 2007)

This stuff is fairly specialized, but here you can get an overview of some of the products http://www.unifrax.com/prodinfo.nsf/LookupByFormNo/C-1427/$File/Form%20C-1427%20Specialties%209-05.pdf

I know the Unifrax guys personally and they are about the only company with info online and prices for a lot of the materials right on the internet.

You might have a vermiculite refractory, which is quite cheap and can be ordered online at various places.   If you need fiber blankets and such, I would first try Unifrax, since they will more than likely be the most reasonable. And since they are in Niagra Falls, NY, they are also not too far away.  About 90% of the high end materials come out of japan.

Keith


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## KeithO (Aug 27, 2007)

http://www.unifrax.com/prodinfo.nsf/LookupByFormNo/C-3087-3/$File/Form%20C-3087-3XPEAV2,2-04.pdf
This is the stuff commonly used to hold the catalytic combustor at medium temperatures.  It is pretty cheap, would only be a few $ for the size needed for your combuster.


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## KeithO (Aug 27, 2007)

http://www.budgetcastingsupply.com/index.htm

You might want to look at the castable refractory at the above website if that is what you need.  The store caters to people doing casting at home or small business and sell relatively small quantities (as these things go) at reasonable prices.

Keith


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## Gooserider (Aug 27, 2007)

KeithO said:
			
		

> Do you have any pictures of the stuff and where it goes ?  Is it used for gasketing or for actually stopping heat transmission to the outside ?  Is it exposed directly to combustion gasses or not ?
> 
> There are lot of vermiculite based materials used, particularly for the catalytic element, but there are much better materials available today.  Its all a matter of how long it has to last.
> 
> Post some pictures and I can try to figure out what it is.



The stuff is cast into a sort of tower that goes between the fireback inside the stove and the back of the stove outside.  It holds the cat and is the part that actually contains the secondary combustion, thus it has to contain the heat of that reaction, and keep it from radiating out the back side of the stove, instead the heat is used to sustain the cat reaction and is radiated out the front into the firebox where it serves to pre-heat the combustion gasses and gets out into the room.

I have a bunch of pictures here - Encore Rebuild They show pretty much everything as I've taken it apart, and I think some of them should show enough detail on the refractory assembly to let you get a feel for the material and the damage to it.

There are two basic issues in terms of lasting - one is to get it to stay together long enough to get the stove together, the second is that a lot of the damage is around where the cat itself goes, which means that it has to be able to handle having the cat taken out for maintenance a couple times a year - presumably for a very long time.  It also has to maintain enough physical integrity to keep the various chambers in the stove that it is part of separate so the gasses go where they are supposed to.

I will check out the links you've mentioned so far as well.

Thanks for the help,

Gooserider


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## KeithO (Aug 27, 2007)

Mr GR

I sent you a PM.  Look up my number there and give me a call.
Keith


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## daleeper (Aug 29, 2007)

So KeithO

To get this back on topic, does the MHA portfolio give enough information to actually build the tile masonry heater that you referred to in the op?  What other information is in there?  I have been considering purchase of this information, but didn't know whether it was going to contain enough information to justify the dollars spent.  I have already contacted Albie directly on that particular heater, and was disappointed in the information I got back.


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## KeithO (Aug 29, 2007)

daleeper:

This is what the listing at MHA has to say: http://mha-net.org/html/bookstore.htm It is the first advertisement on the page.  The set costs $75 for non members.   I can't install any of these in my home due to the unsuitable home layout and the fact that I can't put a support under the floor to support the weight without a completely unreasonable cost. That is why I have not yet bought the set of plans.

The portfolio includes five sets of detailed plans for the:
     Finnish Contraflow (Small room heater 24" x 36")
     Kakelugn (Swedish Heater)
     Blacksburg Grundofen (Modified)
     Medium Size Corner Finnish Heater
     Soapstone Heater      
      (Materials list for each)

Detail Option Drawings including:
    Damper Options
    Clean Out Options
    Outside Air Options
    Options to Finish the Top (above capping slab)

Six line drawings 
    Vertical Channel Masonry Heater (Russian)
     Horizontal Channel Masonry Heater (Russian)
     Combination Channel Masonry Heater (German)
     Contraflow Masonry Heater (Finnish)
     Five Channel Masonry Heater (Swedish)

One Generic Heater Building Sequence Step-By-Step
Copy ATR Engineering Masonry Heater Stabilization Report
Copy of Swedish Emissions Report
MHA Homeowner's Safety Manual & Burning Guide


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## begreen (Aug 30, 2007)

Keith. Thanks for your contributions on this subject. Good info.


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## Martin Strand III (Aug 30, 2007)

From one who has a masonry heater, I'd like to add the following:

Yes, they are "expensive".  But this is relative to what else you have (or don't) vs what you need.  Bottom line :  a MH is not for everyone.

Next, comparing firebox size and burning in a MH to the same in a metal stove is not "apples to apples".  In short, thermal mass heating is not comparable to metal stove heating.  Different burn dynamics, different stove engineering and different heat generated.  Assuming otherwise is like saying a combustion engine compares to human cellular metabolism because they both use oxygen and create heat.  This is pure nonsense.  So is trying to build one yourself unless you're uniquely talented or qualified (I'm neither).

Then in talking about money and payback:  anyone with a masonry heater is making a fractionally larger long-term payment, (added pro-rata principal and interest due to masonry heater), in return for receiving short-term benefits, such as decreased wood consumpton, a cleaner chimney, few needed replacement parts and a safe comfortable heat source which doesn’t need much tending so it’s a nice thing to have now.  But if the world went to crap it would be great to have since you can get heat, cooking, and hot water with few moving parts. So it’s not only an investment, it’s also a hedge against risk.  A payment in return for decreased risk and more certainty with regard to return on investment is called "insurance".   And if one takes a look at it that way, then these look even better as ‘investments’.

Aye,
Marty

Grandma used to say, "We don't see things as they are.  We see them as we are."


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## wg_bent (Aug 30, 2007)

Well, I'm partially to blame for this thread since I was the one who suggested a masonry heater.  I believe the person was asking about putting in a fireplace at one point in his thinking, so if someone is willing to put in a Rumford or similar, a masonry heater is a minimal increase in cost, and a whole lot of benefit in heat output.  I also didn't realize at the time the cabin was only 320 sqft.  ON the other hand, a Tulikivi comes in many sizes and costs.  their low end model seen here: http://www.virginiaradiant.com/gallery/tu001/tu500.html

weighs about 2000 lbs.  I recall pricing a year or so ago for these being in the 5K range with installation being extra.  Typical estimates were roughly double the unit cost.  

For a 320 sqft cabin... probably not worth it.  A poor mans masonry heater (Better known as a Hearthstone Mansfield) would be much better, not to mention serious overkill for 320 sqft when a VC Intrepid would be more than adequate.  

I think Craig's got the right perspective.  A Masonry heater is not only something practical, it's something you want and looks nice just like a Mercedes or a Rolex.  A Chevy and a Timex do the same basic job, the Mercedes just does it with more refinement.  
Marty, as one of the few owners of a masonry heater has a unique perspective here.  (Realize he also owns a wood stove)  I've PMed him a bit and he has nothing but good things to say, and considers his heater part of the house cost.  Given that houses cost 300k to build these days around these parts, a 15k masonry heater is no more expensive that a really nice set of window blinds or a little nicer moulding in a home.  How about Hardwood floors?  They make a masonry heater look like a joke if you have a 2500 sqft house.  It's all what you want.

If building a new home again, a Masonry heater would very likely be in the plan, but it would have to be a final home.


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## Burn-1 (Aug 30, 2007)

Marty,

You can send me a royalty check for that material anytime you wish to use it.


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## Martin Strand III (Aug 30, 2007)

Burning One:

There actually are quotations marks in that paragraph.  I must have put them in the wrong places...

If you don't like that, try this:  When I regurgitate assimilated material, sometimes it's messy.  But thank you for a slant on 'value' I hadn't come across before.

Aye,
Marty

Grandma used to say, "If you want to get'em off your back, tell'em 'Check's in the mail' ".


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## KeithO (Aug 30, 2007)

Marty: I would agree that to design and build a masonry heater from a blank sheet of paper would take a lot of knowledge, skill and experience. However, if one follows directions (assuming a ranch style home with a concrete floor and class A metal chimney) this is a manageable task. If one looks at the pictures from the MHA annual workshops, the degree of complexity can readily be evaluated. Particularly if one is able to do a "dry run", which is mostly what is done at the MHA workshops, it helps immensely. I will more than likely take a community college brick laying course to prepare for building my unit. One must simply resist every temptation to "tweak" the design, other than on masonry facing details.


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## Burn-1 (Aug 31, 2007)

Marty,

No harm done. As an appraiser I often have to try to find the hidden values in many of our economic choices. 

KeithO

I threw this one out several months ago but it is a good resource and for an old ag econ hand like myself, I think it's a great offering from their extension service. Missouri Masonry Stove


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## Burn-1 (Aug 31, 2007)

Well for an out of the box solution, practically a masonry heater on its own you could also grab a Hearthstone Equinox (Big hat tip to Tom for featuring it on his very informative site when Hearthstone doesn't even have it up on theirs yet. )

690 lbs 100,000 BTU *4 cu ft firebox *able to take 26 inch wood. Just waiting to chomp into a woodpile!. That's about 30 fills per cord. Two firings a day would add up fast.

After MSG talked about this last year I have been dying to see what it was going to look like. It's only a $400 premium above the Mansfield.


Hearthstone must be getting some European style tips from its Spanish owners because I noticed they have a Rais style rotating stove out on their site too called the Bari


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## BrotherBart (Aug 31, 2007)

Burn-1 said:
			
		

> Well for an out of the box solution, practically a masonry heater on its own you could also grab a Hearthstone Equinox (Big hat tip to Tom for featuring it on his very informative site when Hearthstone doesn't even have it up on theirs yet. )
> 
> 690 lbs 100,000 BTU *4 cu ft firebox *able to take 26 inch wood. Just waiting to chomp into a woodpile!. That's about 30 fills per cord. Two firings a day would add up fast.



Oh how I would love to build a house with that puppy right in the middle of it. WHOOHYA. Too bad my new house days are over.  And the concrete pillar under it in the basement would take up major space.


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## KeithO (Aug 31, 2007)

Add a few more layers of 60mm thick soapstone to the inside walls to reduce the size of the firebox and increase the thermal mass.  That will reduce the qty of wood burnt and extend heat betwen firing.  A proper masonry heater would have at least 3 times more thermal mass going up to 5-6x.  Otherwise the temperature swings will be too great and fuel consumption too high.


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## Burn-1 (Aug 31, 2007)

KeithO said:
			
		

> Add a few more layers of 60mm thick soapstone to the inside walls to reduce the size of the firebox and increase the thermal mass.  That will reduce the qty of wood burnt and extend heat betwen firing.  A proper masonry heater would have at least 3 times more thermal mass going up to 5-6x.  Otherwise the temperature swings will be too great and fuel consumption too high.



Obviously the Equinox is designed and engineered to be a stove and not a masonry heater, and at 690 lbs the stove installers will certainly be earning their keep on this one. 

It probably has all the thermal mass it needs for its intended use. There are some other stoves like this though. Fred Seton's Cera-Stove made from cast refractory panels, and of which the smallest model weighs 800 lbs and the largest 1,200 lbs with a 6.4 cu ft firebox, (basically a self-contained bonfire), no style points though; and the Topolino stove which really is more like a masonry heater with 83% overall efficiency and much more heater-like mass to firebox ratios. It has modular construction and can be taken down and moved unlike a built-in-place heater, but it's not sold in the US and pretty pricey at 5,000 Euros plus. 

As a Phoenix owner I will note that the swings on it are certainly not as noticeable as they are with my steel stove. Given that the Phoenix takes about 45 minutes to give off heat and about an hour for good heat I would hate to come home to a cold house and wait for this beast to get to temp. There is definitely a reason why soapstone stoves should be for 24/7 burners.

I'm waiting to see if the Equinox is going to start some new arms race for the biggest stove?


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## Martin Strand III (Aug 31, 2007)

O Keeith:

While you're building your own MH, you might want to review the definition of a MH (below) so your project doesn't end up being a one-off smoke producing masonry monolith that you won't be able to get out of your collapsing house when it's ablaze.  

Are you sure your creative instincts wouldn't be placated by assembling a factory pre-fab refractory core unit (all the R&D;would have been done saving you, perhaps, years) and then adding the masonry facade of your choice?

But, heck, if the Finns, Germans, Russians, Danes and our beer guzzling northern neighbors can do it, maybe you can too.
_________________________________
MHA Masonry Heater Definition

"A masonry heater is a site-built or site-assembled, solid-fueled heating device constructed mainly of masonry materials in which the heat from intermittent fires burned rapidly in its firebox is stored in its massive structure for slow release to the building. It has an interior construction consisting of a firebox and heat exchange channels built from refractory components.

Specifically, a masonry heater has the following characteristics:
- a mass of at least 800 kg. (1760 lbs.),
- tight fitting doors that are closed during the burn cycle,
- an overall average wall thickness not exceeding 250 mm (10 in.),
- under normal operating conditions, the external surface of the masonry heater, except immediately surrounding the fuel loading door(s), does not exceed 110 C. (230 F.),
- the gas path through the internal heat exchange channels downstream of the firebox includes at least one 180 degree change in flow direction, usually downward, before entering the chimney,
- the length of the shortest single path from the firebox exit to the chimney entrance is at least twice the largest firebox dimension"

(passed unanimously at 1998 MHA Annual Meeting, June 8, 1998)
___________________________________

Burning One:  please notice the quotation marks giving credit where credit is due...

Aye,
Marty

Grandma used to say. "Play with fire and you'll get burned."


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## KeithO (Aug 31, 2007)

Marty, I thought that what you are advocating is what I have been suggesting all along ?   If one uses the AlbieCore ($1600) that takes care of the pre-fabricated core.  The note I posted earlier regarding the masonry heater "kit" was in the $4k region, but doesn't include the facing bricks. It does include the fire door, cleanouts, gasketing material, high temp mortar etc etc.   I'm guessing that the facing is a relatively minor part of the whole unless one is using a specialized material like granite or soapstone.  I have actually found a source for soapstone slabs 300x700mmx60mm thick (more than 2") for $63 each + freight.  This is about 3x the cost of marble or granite tile which are only 1/4" thick.  Pretty cheap then..

I am considering getting into the business of actually manufacturing soapstone heaters, since the cost today seems way out of whack in relation to the material costs.  They are also fitted together with splines and pins as opposed to mortared joints, so assembly is not quite the same kind of work as a conventional masonry heater.  Once one adds services like custom 3D carving into the picture, one is entering a market where there are very few players and hardly any locals.

Keith


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## Martin Strand III (Aug 31, 2007)

KeithO:

I'm not advocating Albiecore.  It is one of several available.  

If you are getting into the businness, then you must have thought of:

*  The Weight requiring substancial poured concrete rebar reinforced floor pad on a concrete/block foundation on a poured reinforced footing on undesturbed earth

*  The Expansion of the inner core vs the facade requiring specific expansion joints in critical areas to prevent the whole structure self-destructing with thermal cycling

*  Sizing of the firebox relative to the length of the exhaust channels, and, just how long they should be

*  Local code requirements (not mechanical for the heater) for 'on site built'

*  Outside air requirements with unobstructed airflow to the fireboox for optimal burns

*  Method of bedding the firebox door to prevent loosening and create a seal

*  Engineering of an efficient secondary burn chamber for a violent mixing of air/gasses so your neighbors won't think you're burning road kill

*  Damper position and construction (important) so it really works and keeps working

*  Wall thickness of facade so the unit actually heats, but not too much

*  Chimney options

Just a few thoughts...

Aye,
Marty


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## cbrodsky (Sep 1, 2007)

Burn-1 said:
			
		

> Hearthstone must be getting some European style tips from its Spanish owners because I noticed they have a Rais style rotating stove out on their site too called the Bari



I sure hope that is an error on their website when they make reference to 40 lbs of soapstone in the features list.  That's about like buying Log Cabin syrup and saying it's OK because it's got 2% "real maple syrup" in it 

The Equinox looks like a nice new entry - I think you'd be hard pressed to go too big with a soapstone stove in most houses as it is just so easy to keep getting longer and longer burn cycles with bigger loads.

-Colin


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## Burn-1 (Sep 1, 2007)

KeithO said:
			
		

> I am considering getting into the business of actually manufacturing soapstone heaters, since the cost today seems way out of whack in relation to the material costs.  They are also fitted together with splines and pins as opposed to mortared joints, so assembly is not quite the same kind of work as a conventional masonry heater.  Once one adds services like custom 3D carving into the picture, one is entering a market where there are very few players and hardly any locals.



Yes the Tulikivis are mostly built with splines and other hardware as in the Tulikivi in this video. But some others such as this system from Tigchel Heater based in the Netherlands, (don't know about US availability), are stackable systems made from pre-cast refractory materials. It appears to use gaskets and interlocking pieces not unlike the Topolino stove I had previously mentioned.

According to that website the Tigchel heater is good for about 100 square meters or ~1,100 SF. Given that European homes are generally much smaller than ours that's probably a great investment but 1,100 SF is like the output of a Hearthstone Craftsbury or VC Intrepid for a little perspective.


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## KeithO (Sep 1, 2007)

On the material side:  Soapstone has a density of approximately 2800kg/m3.    Thus, assuming the 60mm thick slabs that are readily available, 30 slabs will have a weight of ~2300lb.  Thus more than enough to qualify as a masonry heater. These slabs will have a material cost of less than $2000.   The big benefit to soapstone is that it endures the high temperatures in the heater core better than regular firebrick.  One is thus able to manufacture most of the parts for the heater out of the same basic material.

Soapstone can be machined with regular carbide cutters.  In fact the edges can be routed with a regular router with carbide tipped bits.  It will of course produce a lot of dust, so this is a factor that needs to be planned for.  The kind of machining done to the soapstone slabs is neither complicated nor terribly time intensive.  Slots for splines, holes for dowels and bolts, edge treatment to make the outside surfaces look nice.  Perhaps all of the edges are given a "lick" to ensure than all pieces are identical in size and edges parallel and square.  The edges as supplied are more than likely sawn, thus would need some improvement.

I think that the best thing about soapstone is that in the development phase, one can assemble and disassemble the heater many times to replace pieces in the core without requiring demolition of the unit.  The MHA fols appear to use a clay mortar for their experimental units so that they too can be disassembled and "recycled" but that is far more tedious.

The only downside to the whole enterprise is that soapstone s not found everywhere, so freight of the raw material is a factor after which the instalation is the next issue (and an additional cost besides the heater itself).   I do think that we can do a lot better than $20k/heater though.   At those prices one could live quite well doing 1 heater per month.  In the case of Tulikivi and others, the primary cost of material and labor is incurred in Finland and one has to add shipping across the atlantic + road transport to the distributor / reseller, stocking fees, salesmans commission, delivery and instalation.


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## Martin Strand III (Sep 1, 2007)

KeithO said:
			
		

> The big benefit to soapstone is that it endures the high temperatures in the heater core better than regular firebrick.  One is thus able to manufacture most of the parts for the heater out of the same basic material.



Keith:

I'll venture that both soapstone and brick can equally endure constant high temperatures - it's the brutal heating/cooling cycling (thermal cycling) where soapstone may win out.

But, yes, soapstone is nice.  Nice and old; formed under intense heat and pressure millions of years ago.  Nice to work with; cut and shape.  Nice and heavy; good for thermal mass.  Nice and stable under high firebox heat followed by a cool phase; potentially fewer cracks and thermal cycling damage.  Nice to feel; almost sensuous.  Nice to look at; for a heater, eye candy.  Nice and expensive to buy; could be tough on a budget...

Those nice cudos given, soapstone is not quite as nice for thermal mass heating as other natural substances in one very important aspect: because of it's 'high thermal conductivity'.  I've said this before - this property makes soapstone more like metal than other natural masonry (see below thermal conductivity values).  The real world meaning, comparing it to other natural masonry, is that soapstone heats up fast (good) but also cools down fast (not so good for a heater).  In other words, once it's hot, it cools faster than other masonry making it less desirable for a masonry heater.  None the less, it's much better than a metal stove.

MATERIAL                                  THERMAL CONDUCTIVITY  W/mK     (Btu-in/hr-ft-F)
                                                                                                    

Cast Iron                                                75             (520)
Soapstone                                              6 - 7          (42 - 48)
Granite                                                   about 3      (20.8)
Face brick                                               1.29           (9)
Firebrick, Clay (ASTMC62)                         0.95          (6.6)

So, soapstone is over 5X more thermally conductive than other masonry but about 10X less conductive than metal (iron).

Maybe it's splitting hairs.  For me, I liked pocketting the difference in cost in not having soapstone and knowing brick and tile (my facade over a refractory core) is as good or better in this one important feature.

Aye,
Marty

Grandma used to say, "To each his own."


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## KeithO (Sep 1, 2007)

Marty, what I'm saying on the cost side is that I think the cost actually favors soapstone.   The Albiecore heater kit runs close to $4k and that is without facing.  The core itself, which is pimarily castable refractory is $1600 alone.  This link http://www.greenmountainsoapstone.com/masonry_heaters.html takes you to the place where one can purchase the soapstone slabs.  The prices are not available online, one has to call and I confirmed that cost of $63 for the 700x300x60 slabs.

Greenmountain is a lot more reasonable in price than most other places.  Generally, I have the impression that soapstone is hugely marked up by all the middlemen.   If you like granite, how about this http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=640-0120&PMPXNO=949402&PARTPG=INLMK3  Precision ground and lapped granite surface plates 12x18" x3" thick for $24 ?  Just remember that any decorative touches (bevels, rounded corners, slots, holes etc) are not going to be cheap.   One could build a nice heater with it, but it would suit a "modern" home better because it would be kind of monolithic.

It just gives you an idea of to what extent we are ripped off for granite countertops and the like.  The smaller 9x12x2" plate is just a little more expensive than what one pays for 1/4" granite tile by the sq ft.  Imagine using 2" thick "tiles" for your flooring.  That would add a bit of thermal mass and last forever too.  One could regrind the surface every 100 years to take out the few 10ths of wear that one would have by then...  I can imagine the face of the enco salesman when he gets the call: Hello ? Yes, I would like 1600sq ft of the 2" surface plate please.  But sir, what are you going to do with so many surface plates ?  Uhhh, tile the floor with them ?....

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=640-0140&PMPXNO=951363&PARTPG=INLMK3  The 18x24x3" plate works out to $15/sqft.  It would of course be a good 2 man job laying those suckers (180lb each), but one wouldn't need too many to get the job done.


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## Martin Strand III (Sep 1, 2007)

Keith:

I don't think we're on the same page.

I'm done here.

Aye,
Marty

Grandma used to say, "Some can't see the forest from the trees.''


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## Todd (Sep 2, 2007)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Burn-1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow! That's one big heating beasty! I don't know if I really like the looks tho. It's kind of square, needs some curves on it. Also takes 8" pipe. What kind of noncat burn system does it have? Burn tubes and baffle, or something similar to everburn?


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## BrotherBart (Sep 2, 2007)

Todd said:
			
		

> BrotherBart said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Go to the bottom of this page on Tom's site and tell me what about the liner installation would not be legal in Elkville, Massachusetts.  :cheese: 

http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/cequinox.htm


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## Todd (Sep 2, 2007)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Todd said:
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No block off plate! :lol:


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## Jade (Oct 2, 2007)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> But there are also a number of "in-betweens" - such as using the built-in units from Magnum and Kozy and surrounding them with masonry. Take some design hints from the pros and build the whole thing inside the house envelope......the masonry will complement the heat. This can be done to a lesser degree with zero clearance built-ins - surround them with some mass!



When you referred to the Magnum and Kozy built-in units, are these the Kozy 234 & 432, and Magnum Masonry?  Then are the zero clearance built-ins the Kozy 231, 241 & Z42 and the Magnum ZC?  

Also, why “to a lesser degree” with the zc built-ins?   How is that difference quantified?  What is the difference?


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## Gooserider (Oct 2, 2007)

Jade said:
			
		

> Webmaster said:
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Not sure about the differences between the models that you are mentioning, but I would not expect a ZC unit to make a good "fake MH" because of it's inherent design.  The ZC is designed very carefully NOT to pass heat through it into the surrounding structure, thus defeating the point of adding the thermal mass.   A ZC also usually includes some level of venting or other air circulation intended to further cool it's exterior, again defeating the purpose of the design.

You probably would get some heat storage regardless, so I would expect a ZC with a brick surround to do better than one with a wooden surround, but no way would it function like an MH.

Gooserider


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