# Friggen cars!



## jb6l6gc (May 26, 2016)

Friggen cars are such bad investments lately every time I turn around its something. I have a 2007 Mazda 3 170000km that's cost me 2gs in the last 6 months and counting and a 2009 Hyundai Tucson 170000km just off warranty that's starting the same vicious cycle.  Not to mention how some of these parts are designed is ridiculous. 

Sometimes feel like I'm chasing my tail.


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## velvetfoot (May 26, 2016)

My 2007 Mazda 3 with about 68k miles had the rear shock mounts rust out, twice, and needed new struts and shocks.  Otherwise, not bad.

My observation about things in general is that it doesn't take much to knock them out of the box.


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## jb6l6gc (May 26, 2016)

velvetfoot said:


> My 2007 Mazda 3 with about 68k miles had the rear shock mounts rust out, twice, and needed new struts and shocks.  Otherwise, not bad.
> 
> My observation about things in general is that it doesn't take much to knock them out of the box.


Ya I have a rear end rattle on that car that I can't seem to figure out and the Hyundai just went in for a rear bearing which is quickly becoming expensive due to design issues of the rear spindle assembly that's causing problems for the mechanic to get the hub and bearing out.

I just needed a rant.  But I do agree things are not build with maintenance in mind these days.  
If you ever want a good kick look up how you replace the passenger compartment air filter in an 07 mazda3. Prett well have to take the whole dash apart!


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## BrotherBart (May 27, 2016)

I am hoping that the 1995 Suburban doesn't start having problems.


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## Lake Girl (May 27, 2016)

I hear your rant and join you  Called planned maintenance ....

When the 2013 Spark was still on warranty, Hubby's phone kept on getting dropped by the MyLink.  3 or 4 times he took it in and dealer service wrote it off as his phone.  Not long after the warranty was up, the MyLink quit altogether.  Dealer would not recognize it as a warranty issue and wanted us to hand over another $500 in addition to the diagnostic fees they had previously charged.  It's been a quiet ride for over a year.  

I took it to a new garage for an oil change and found out that the oil filter is proprietary and not one they routinely stocked from GM.  Good thing they figured that out before they dropped the oil.  

The on-board computer and monitoring all the sensors will drive a person crazy... and I never really get a good answer on what is going on.   Aveos seem to be notorious for check engine lights from the cold


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## jb6l6gc (May 27, 2016)

Funny thing is the sensors are supposed to show a problem however when there's a diagnostic code 9 times out of 10 it's the sensor that's the problem


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## Jags (May 27, 2016)

BrotherBart said:


> I am hoping that the 1995 Suburban doesn't start having problems.


I know.  I have the same fear of the 99 Dodge.  One of these days its liable to start giving me issues.


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## jb6l6gc (May 27, 2016)

God I wish I still had my 99 Tahoe thing was a tank barely ever a problem except for the usual gm stuff. Problem is I couldn't afford the fuel driving 100km a day with a 5.7l v8


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## jharkin (May 27, 2016)

Your first mistake was considering a car an "investment"


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## rustynut (May 27, 2016)

Brotherbart......are you hoping that the 21 year old Suburban is not going to have any issues ?........hahahahaha.......wish they still made them like that !
hoping for your continued success.......rn


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## jb6l6gc (May 27, 2016)

jharkin said:


> Your first mistake was considering a car an "investment"


Don't really consider it an investment as much as something that I invest allot of my money into lol


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## jharkin (May 27, 2016)

Well, any car starts to cost money when you start getting to 10+ years and a couple hundred thousand miles. Even Toyotas and Hondas.  Things wear out.

I sunk a couple grand into our 2008 Honda last year.  Nothing was "broken" but at 100k it was due for the major service items - timing belt, water pump, new plugs, every fluid changed, time for a new battery, etc...


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## firefighterjake (May 27, 2016)

My 2003 Honda Accord went to a little more than 200,000 miles before I sold it in 2015 . . .  other than a minor part and the usual wear and tear items it was near bullet proof (and I have to admit I was kinda bad about doing regular oil changes). Ended up selling it to a friend . . . who recently had the timing chain stretch on it. Instead of doing the timing chain he bought a junkyard engine and his kid and some friends dropped it in (which I was kinda impressed since I figured they would end up with extra parts).


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## jharkin (May 28, 2016)

^^   I will say I LOVE the fact that so many manufacturers are going back to timing chains.  Eliminates one of the most expensive wear items and you have vehicles now that can go 200k on nothing but fluid, filters, spark plugs, tires and brake pads - assuming nothing breaks.


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## maple1 (May 28, 2016)

Our 2006 Civic has 443,000 kms on it. Change the oil every 
12,000 & it just keeps going. And tires when it needs them.


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## velvetfoot (May 28, 2016)

jharkin said:


> ^^   I will say I LOVE the fact that so many manufacturers are going back to timing chains.  Eliminates one of the most expensive wear items and you have vehicles now that can go 200k on nothing but fluid, filters, spark plugs, tires and brake pads - assuming nothing breaks.


I didn't like the belt on my VW TDI Beetle.  When it came out at first, belt was supposed to be changed at 60k miles.  I bought the tools and became adept at doing the job myself.
My MINI and Accent have chains. I hope the Mazda has a chain, lol, but I'm not sure.


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## jb6l6gc (May 28, 2016)

velvetfoot said:


> I didn't like the belt on my VW TDI Beetle.  When it came out at first, belt was supposed to be changed at 60k miles.  I bought the tools and became adept at doing the job myself.
> My MINI and Accent have chains. I hope the Mazda has a chain, lol, but I'm not sure.


Problem is you have to replace water pump too... Or you might as well!


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## velvetfoot (May 28, 2016)

yep
I recall now that the water pump on my MINI started leaking and I had to replace it, lol.


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## jatoxico (May 29, 2016)

Jags said:


> I know.  I have the same fear of the 99 Dodge.  One of these days its liable to start giving me issues.


You and BB can tempt fate if you want to, me I'm keeping my mouth shut.


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## jatoxico (May 29, 2016)

I buy used cars to avoid that first big depreciation hit then try to do what I can maintenance wise myself. Recently on my afternoon commute I noticed my brakes groaning a bit when letting off the pedal and some shimmy on the highway.

When I got it home I felt the drivers side wheel and sure enough it was hot. Garage wanted $500 to replace the caliper, brake line and pads. I explained it just started to happen and I didn't think it needed all that but he was adamant.

I took the car home and pulled the caliper. Freed up the frozen piston and cleaned it. Drove perfectly after that. Couple days later I changed the caliper for $65 to be safe.


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## jb6l6gc (May 29, 2016)

I try to do what I can too. I am very mechanically inclined however without a hoist or impact and specialty tools it's quite tough to do everything! I do what I can and leave the rest to the pros.  I've learned to weigh the cost vs my time now, this is how I determine what's worth my while as I have other things I'd rather be doing that working on my car.  Ie. Fishing!


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## firefighterjake (May 30, 2016)

jharkin said:


> ^^   I will say I LOVE the fact that so many manufacturers are going back to timing chains.  Eliminates one of the most expensive wear items and you have vehicles now that can go 200k on nothing but fluid, filters, spark plugs, tires and brake pads - assuming nothing breaks.



Agree 100% . . . in fact I've tried to only buy vehicles with timing chains vs. belts for that very reason.


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## peakbagger (May 30, 2016)

I guess I have perspective. In the sixties 60 K would usually mean the water pump, shocks, timing chain and exhaust would have been replaced and I woudl have had a couple of tuneups. The starter and alternator would have been out and rebuilt or replaced. The engine would be using oil. When you heard someone hitting 100 K it was rarity (odometers only had six digits). In the mid to late seventies smog controls made the engines run like crap, gas mileage was poor and performance was lousy. These days I expect a car will last 150 K and about all I do is change the oil every year when the car decides it needs changing. I do have to replace tires and brake pads every so often and my car gets 40 MPG. I cant complain.


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## Ashful (May 30, 2016)

Jags said:


> I know.  I have the same fear of the 99 Dodge.  One of these days its liable to start giving me issues.


Never an issue with my 05 Dodge, and I work that little 1/2 ton like its a real truck.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## begreen (May 30, 2016)

jatoxico said:


> You and BB can tempt fate if you want to, me I'm keeping my mouth shut.


Add me and my trusty 1994 Ranger to the group. 59K miles and going strong.


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## jatoxico (May 30, 2016)

begreen said:


> Add me and my trusty 1994 Ranger to the group. 59K miles and going strong.


I had a 93' I think it was, nice little truck. That was the last vehicle I bought new. Put about 80K on it and only got rid of it when we started a family and the two seater just had to go.

After putting 150K, we just sold the wife's 2004 Subaru w/ 160K, my Lexus, also an 04, has 100K (bought w/ 16K) on it and my Cherokee has 145K. All except the Cherokee are garage kept so they're in great shape but I'm still not gonna say how good they all run !


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## begreen (May 30, 2016)

Got the Ranger from next door neighbor for $2400 with 49K on it. I've done the brakes and a new clutch + Bilstein shocks and Timbrens. No regrets, this thing is a great little workhorse.


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## begreen (May 30, 2016)

jatoxico said:


> I had a 93' I think it was, nice little truck. That was the last vehicle I bought new. Put about 80K on it and only got rid of it when we started a family and the two seater just had to go.
> 
> After putting 150K, we just sold the wife's 2004 Subaru w/ 160K, my Lexus, also an 04, has 100K (bought w/ 16K) on it and my Cherokee has 145K. All except the Cherokee are garage kept so they're in great shape but I'm still not gonna say how good they all run !


Miss my Subaru, that was a great car. If the Cherokee has the straight 6 4.0 liter engine it will go on forever.


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## maple1 (May 30, 2016)

Jeez, you guys don't drive much.


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## begreen (May 30, 2016)

You're right. Even before I retired I commuted via public transit instead of driving. Our truck gets used pretty much just for truck stuff.


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## jharkin (May 30, 2016)

begreen said:


> Add me and my trusty 1994 Ranger to the group. 59K miles and going strong.



Well if you drove it farther than to the mailbox and back you might actually put some wear and tear on it


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## begreen (May 30, 2016)




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## jatoxico (May 30, 2016)

begreen said:


> Miss my Subaru, that was a great car. If the Cherokee has the straight 6 4.0 liter engine it will go on forever.


Our Subie ownership was a mixed bag. We got it w/ 9K but was a Calif emission car w/ 5 O2 sensors and two cats IIRR. Never breathed like other ones I've driven and had a head gasket issue that was common to that year. Still the symmetrical AWD drove just how an AWD car should and it had a lot of nice features and a solid build. We got to 160K before it overheated. Wife did not notice for too long and I figured it was time to cut bait.

The Cherokee is the 4.0 L 6 and runs plenty strong, good trans too.


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## Dix (May 30, 2016)

Ha 

Spent $1000 (zero's are correct) on the  2005 F 250 in April ... original exhaust went after I hit a speed bump @ 25 MPH, you know the rest. Seems when I hit the bump, I also loosened the straps that held the gas tank .. driving home on the LIE when that happened !




Paid to tow that time !!

Then the Lancer needed an alternator, flex pipe, flex pipe mount, and a starter.... April was a bad month !

Don't get me started on the submersible well pump


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## begreen (May 30, 2016)

I got to do some serious travel time in an F250 last week. Nice truck!


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## Dix (May 31, 2016)

begreen said:


> I got to do some serious travel time in an F250 last week. Nice truck!



The vehicle affectionately known as "The Beast"


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## sportbikerider78 (May 31, 2016)

I have fantastic fortune with Hondas/Acuras and Nissans.  I drive them all high mileage (150k+).

My 2006 Acura TSX has had brakes, oil, rotors and only one sensor go in 108k miles.  And the sensor was a radiator temp sensor that got tons of NY salt spray. No rattles..no rust...and it is just a great all around car.  
Got rid of my 2001 Nissan Pathfinder at 187k.  Standard maintenance other than a few O2 sensors and a rotted out exhaust and a MAF sensor..that was my fault it failed.


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## Seasoned Oak (May 31, 2016)

I had a 94 GM 1 ton  dump truck and a toyota tacoma at the same time. The toyota despite being 5 years newer, (1999)not very reliable and worthless as a work truck about took me broke with the frequent expensive repairs and parts prices. Around the same time I remember replacing a huge front brake caliper on the GM dump truck,it was $26 and lifetime guaranteed. Needless to say after a year of the toyota with only 85000 miles on it i got rid of it. Dont miss it a bit.


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## warno (Jun 20, 2016)

Problem is you are buying too new of cars.

I drive a 87 ford ranger 2.9 with a 5 speed back and forth to work. 5 digit odometer says 075XX right now I'm guessing it's been rolled over twice. When I bought it the transmission made alot of noise, turns out the case was dry and upon inspection some chunks of synchronizer fell out. Lol I  slapped the cover back on, filled it up and finished the tune up. Been driving it for 5 years now. change the oil once a year.

The factory fuel tank had rusted 3 holes in it, so I built an aluminum fuel cell at work and mounted it in the bed.  Did some exhaust work last year and put a 3" straight pipe stack on it. (with rain cap) 

Drive it almost everyday and I beat it like I hate it. Nobody understands why it still runs for me. Lol


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## jebatty (Jun 21, 2016)

We've been a Toyota family since 1986, bought only one new (1986) and all the rest used with 30,000-80,000 miles on them. Mostly Camry, two Celicas and one Avalon. Can't complain at all. My rule of thumb is that a car should "cost" $0.10/mile, not including gas, oil, tires and normal maintenance. If a not normal maintenance, that gets added into the cost. IOW, if I paid $15,000 for a car, it should be essentially trouble-free and be good for 150,000 miles. If a bearing needs to be replaced and cost is $500, that adds 5,000 miles that the car should be good for. All our Toyotas have met that standard.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jun 21, 2016)

My 95 silverado continues to amaze me, as a daily driver work truck with 175000 miles and so dependable ,durable and reliable. I n 4 years ill be able to put antique tags on it,probably still be using it as a daily driver work truck. Even the AC still works good.


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## sportbikerider78 (Jun 21, 2016)

My friends just retired their 2008 Ford Escape with 78k original miles on it.  V6, loaded, leather...very nice inside.  Driven by a doctor and his wife and maintained 100% by the dealer.  
The transmission is shot.  Engine barely runs.  Cat shot.  It is an absolute pile of garbage and has been very well maintained.  

If it didn't have these problems $8-10K easy for resale.  We were lucky to craigslist it for $2500.


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## blades (Jun 21, 2016)

Dix said:


> Ha
> 
> Spent $1000 (zero's are correct) on the  2005 F 250 in April ... original exhaust went after I hit a speed bump @ 25 MPH, you know the rest. Seems when I hit the bump, I also loosened the straps that held the gas tank .. driving home on the LIE when that happened !
> View attachment 179116
> ...


there was a recall on those tank straps awhile back- I had just done both of mine when I got the notice.


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## blades (Jun 21, 2016)

sportbikerider78 said:


> My friends just retired their 2008 Ford Escape with 78k original miles on it.  V6, loaded, leather...very nice inside.  Driven by a doctor and his wife and maintained 100% by the dealer.
> The transmission is shot.  Engine barely runs.  Cat shot.  It is an absolute pile of garbage and has been very well maintained.
> 
> If it didn't have these problems $8-10K easy for resale.  We were lucky to craigslist it for $2500.


Sounds like the dealers repair department wasn't doing the job ( one of the reasons why I call then stealerships)  Auto tranny on the f150 circa 1997 on up , i don't know if the design has changed, is good for 80-100k maybe a bit more before it self destructs , bands wear out or/and the rear bearing on the tail shaft takes a dive-only splash lubricated. Don't know if it is the same unit in the Escape if rear wheel drive.


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## NateB (Jun 21, 2016)

begreen said:


> Got the Ranger from next door neighbor for $2400 with 49K on it. I've done the brakes and a new clutch + Bilstein shocks and Timbrens. No regrets, this thing is a great little workhorse.



Keep an eye on your rear leaf spring brackets.  They like to rust out, and break right after you put a load of wood on it.  You will notice one side is lower than the other.  I have a 95 with a 172k.  Is yours 4x4?  That truck will last you a long time.  Can I buy it from you when you are done with it?


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## begreen (Jun 21, 2016)

Thanks for the heads up. I will watch for it, but it may not be an issue. No road salt used here. The undercarriage is rust-free. It's a 2x4, XLT.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jun 21, 2016)

sportbikerider78 said:


> My friends just retired their 2008 Ford Escape with 78k original miles on it.  V6, loaded, leather...very nice inside.  Driven by a doctor and his wife and maintained 100% by the dealer.
> The transmission is shot.  Engine barely runs.  Cat shot.  It is an absolute pile of garbage and has been very well maintained.
> 
> .


Something about those ford trannys, let em sit for a few months and they never work again. Explorers were a nightmare thru the 90s. Some people swear by em, some at em.


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## Dix (Jun 21, 2016)

blades said:


> there was a recall on those tank straps awhile back- I had just done both of mine when I got the notice.



*Grumbles* Recall was from '97 - '04 ... mines an '05. Trust me, I checked


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## Lake Girl (Jun 22, 2016)

The Spark's recent recall was for the hood latch ... same recall that was on the Aveos

Apparently Takata hasn't finished recalling all their faulty airbags and they were being used even when it was known they were defective...
http://blog.caranddriver.com/9-auto...-dangerous-airbags-nhtsa-still-investigating/
http://www.nbcnews.com/business/aut...g-defective-takata-airbags-cars-study-n583846


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## AmbDrvr253 (Jun 23, 2016)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Something about those ford trannys, let em sit for a few months and they never work again. Explorers were a nightmare thru the 90s. Some people swear by em, some at em.



I have an 03 explorer which had to have a new transmission. And i drive it everyday........LOL......250K miles.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jun 23, 2016)

AmbDrvr253 said:


> I have an 03 explorer which had to have a new transmission. And i drive it everyday........LOL......250K miles.


Dont let it sit for any length of time. I had a Taurus that needed a rebuilt. Rebuilt was installed. Apparently it sat too long after the rebuilt was installed  ,that one didnt work anymore either. i gave the thing away out of sheer frustration. A friend had a o3, f150 pickup for sale,apparently it sat too long waiting for a buyer,you guessed it tranny didnt work anymore by the time it was sold.


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## Ashful (Jun 23, 2016)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Dont let it sit for any length of time. I had a Taurus that needed a rebuilt. Rebuilt was installed. Apparently it sat too long after the rebuilt was installed.


Sounds like superstition, to me.  Can you make it rain with a dance, too?  ;-)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## begreen (Jun 23, 2016)

Sitting can cause issues with multiple parts not just the transmission. Modern vehicles have tight tolerances. When they sit outside for a long time seals can dry out, parts lose their protective lubrication and condensation often accumulates. That can cause internal corrosion. Without some prepwork damage can occur if the vehicle is just started up and driven. Or things may not function correctly.

In my previous Ranger the previous owner had been in an a small accident and not driven for quite a while. The vehicle was fine, except when it got hot. Then the clutch would hang up at times. When cold the vehicle was fine. One time this happened to me in rush hour traffic. I had to quickly pull off the hwy and ended up having to push it a bit to get to a parking spot. Went and had a beer and when I came back, evening temps had cooled down and it worked fine. The problem ended up being rust on the pilot shaft that was causing the throwout bearing to stick.


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## BrotherBart (Jun 23, 2016)

Ashful said:


> Sounds like superstition, to me.  Can you make it rain with a dance, too?  ;-)
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If I keep dancing long enough.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jun 23, 2016)

Ashful said:


> Sounds like superstition, to me.  Can you make it rain with a dance, too?  ;-)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Just my own personal experience and that of a friend. Thought it was odd cuz i never heard of any other brand of vehicle with an automatic tranny act that way. The tauraus ran for a few months after the rebuilt was installed,then sat for a few months with the rebuilt in it waiting for a motor change. Motor worked fine but the tranny wouldnt work anymore. Truck had several issues and sat for about 6 months while owner tried to sell it. By the time it was sold ,tranny was dead.


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## jb6l6gc (Jun 25, 2016)

Just figured out rattling noise on tear end of 07 Mazda 3.  Was a rattling brake pad. This car has no retainer clip or shim on the outboard pads! Me and mechanic only found by banging up on tire with a large mallet.  High temp silicone on the outer pad to caliper and fixed FINALLY!


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## mass_burner (Jun 26, 2016)

2004 Prius has 170k now. Other than new tires, brakes, no major repairs. Never broke down, never left me stranded in 7 years. 

I think she's earned the maintenance coming up.


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## fbelec (Aug 28, 2016)

i have friends that say drive it like you hate and it will never go wrong. one friend does and never has problems. changes oil and filter once a year. funny how that works. i have a 96 e250 last year of the 351 it has over 201k miles and if it wasn't for the body rust i would still be running it now first 120k i drove it with the gas peddle to the floor at every start. the only issue it has now is it needs a rear main seal other than that original motor and tranny. other than a few sensors no work done to either. tranny fluid is original from factory just like the exhaust. so now the body is rusted and have to get rid of it. anybody want a 351 with a working trans???????


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## osagebow (Aug 29, 2016)

My wife, kids and I sat on the left side of the highway with no buffer between me and 80 mph traffic in a brand new jeep compass. It was in Atlanta, 95 degrees, and I had to wait 45 minutes for the CVTranny to cool down. Internet is abuzz with praise for theses pieces of dung. If my wife was driving we all would have died (her words) because of the traffic situation. I barely got off the road as we went from 75 to 35 in 4 seconds.Of course, we had  planned to get past ATL before rush hour. made our 12 hour trip over 15 ( It died again, and died twice on the way home)

Dealer was pretty much ho hum about the whole thing, refused to even change the fluid that was undoubtedly fried (of course you cant check or drain it yourself, its sealed...) He said and wrote they checked it and it was fine. Smudges I photographed on the access were still there, proving it was untouched- they kept it a week and did nothing, then lied on the slip.

Closest I've been to being arrested since my formative years. "It mentions that can happen in the manual, sir"
"Maybe you should mention it in the SALES PITCH!"   
Wife drags me out...
Took a bath on the trade in. Our Equinox has been great FWIW.


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## sportbikerider78 (Aug 29, 2016)

Brand new?  I'd drop it off and demand a replacement immediately.  I'm a confrontational type.


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## peakbagger (Aug 29, 2016)

Jeep Compasses score consistently low for reliability, the salesman and dealer know it and just hope the owners eventually go away if they treat them badly enough. Consumer Reports was not kind to it.


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## Ashful (Aug 29, 2016)

Pretty bad to have ANY car that breaks down in 2016, let alone one that's brand new.  Quality is so high today, versus 30 - 40 years ago, when we were used to seeing cars on the side of the road with one problem or another.  I don't think I've had any car break down in the last 20 years, for any reason, and I tend to keep some cars well past "middle-age".


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## blades (Aug 29, 2016)

osagebow- one very important thing to remember on the Equinox-  every 3000mi. change oil and filter  -  using factory specked weight .   If I am correct that has variable cam timing  -the passages for the cam phaser and VCT as well as the tensioner are very small and in the case of the vct and phaser the clearances between moving parts in each have extremel tight tolerances. Doesn't take much to gum up the works.  I have rebuilt enough of the vct systems to know what is happening with those. Almost every case of failure can be traced to low or dirty oil - in a few cases oil pump failure.  Industry wide problem . I will assign 50/50% fault to customer and MFG respectively on these. 

F150 99-2003 apx  tranny good for apx 100K  then the bands are going and the tail shaft bearing is going also. In that time period 3 auto trannies existed  most 150's were equipped with the smallest one particularly if the 4.6l 6cyl or 4.6l 8cyl units.   Not sure if the 5.4l got the midsize or not.

Computerized systems are ok for mileage and epa I guess but sure are a royal pain in the back side for customers and techs.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 29, 2016)

peakbagger said:


> Jeep Compasses score consistently low for reliability, the salesman and dealer know it and just hope the owners eventually go away if they treat them badly enough. Consumer Reports was not kind to it.


But i sure see a lot of em on the road ,along with the  popular jeep renegades. I had one (renegade) and just plain didnt like climbing over that side rail every time you get in and out ,got rid of it in less than a year. Consumer reports are even less kind to the renegades.


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## firefighterjake (Aug 30, 2016)

blades said:


> . . .
> 
> Computerized systems are ok for mileage and epa I guess but sure are a royal pain in the back side for customers and techs.



A couple years ago I was talking to a mechanic/tech (and now teacher) who said when he first started in the business you would spend several hours figuring out the problem to a car's breakdown and then just a few minutes fixing the broken part. Now he says with the advent of computers and tech he says you hook up and often can tell what the problem is within minutes, but spend hours getting to and fixing the problem.


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## blades (Aug 30, 2016)

ffjake-  If its a really good tech that may be so, On the other hand so many are part swappers  which gets you nowhere fast except an empty wallet. 
Been dealing with self diagnostics for 20+ years now  - If you are not positive of the operational flow  of a particular system it will have you chasing your tail for many hours. Example: partially plugged injectors- will give a lean code eventually- there will be no code as to failure of injectors meantime you will likely get a over/ under timing code ( forget which) Nothing wrong with timing system but the computer is tying to correct for the lean condition and has maxed out, if it goes on long enough might get an over heat code as well, as when the eng is burning real lean it gets hotter. ( like our chain saws) lilkely also experience a  code for a bad O2 sensor, + a Mass air flow code and maybe a VCT code as well.  By this time the unit might only be running in a limp mode if at all. Unless the coil in the injector fails  it will never show an injector code and likely no missfire either.  A sticky VCT is another nasty one to find  and again the computer is compensating- eventually you will get a whole salad bowl of codes most of which will not bear directly on the problem but are symptoms of the failure. The masking  effect of the computer adjusting to compensate can be a real pia. Even on a real time graphic display it is easy to be led astray.


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## Ashful (Aug 30, 2016)

@blades, so the rules really haven't changed.  Experienced mechanics fix a problem faster, and with fewer wrong turns, than those with lesser experience or education.  I have the same issue with service tech's in my industry, across all levels and vintage of diagnostic systems.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jharkin (Aug 31, 2016)

blades said:


> osagebow- one very important thing to remember on the Equinox-  every 3000mi. change oil and filter  -  using factory specked weight .   If I am correct that has variable cam timing  -the passages for the cam phaser and VCT as well as the tensioner are very small and in the case of the vct and phaser the clearances between moving parts in each have extremel tight tolerances. Doesn't take much to gum up the works.  I have rebuilt enough of the vct systems to know what is happening with those. Almost every case of failure can be traced to low or dirty oil - in a few cases oil pump failure.  Industry wide problem . I will assign 50/50% fault to customer and MFG respectively on these.



Every 3k miles, for real?   Thats like a 1970's oil change interval.


I find that very hard to believe, even "dirty" looking oil only has impurity levels in it measured in ppm.  There is nothing to "gunk up the works" unless you are running_ ridiculously _long intervals (like 30-50k) and get sludging.  If you dont believe me go look at used oil lab reports in the BITOG forums.

Honda was using oil pressure activated variable timing (VTEC) as early as the 90s.  (the 80s in their F1 cars)  with thicker weight oils than most car use today and never required special short change intervals for it. It would be really surprising if 30 years later the rest of the industry hadn't figure d out how to do the same......


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## Ashful (Aug 31, 2016)

jharkin said:


> Every 3k miles, for real?   Thats like a 1970's oil change interval.


When I drove my pickup truck every day (until six months ago), I still changed the dino oil every 3000 miles, without exception.  Now that I'm driving it much less, I've gone to the "every six months" model, which is probably every 1000-2000 miles (I drive it twice as much in winter).

My car runs full synthetic and has an oil life indicator, which will go off after roughly 6000 miles of "normal" driving, or just over 4000 miles of my driving.  Point being, usage has a lot to do with oil life.


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## maple1 (Aug 31, 2016)

The oil change/service indicator in our Civic signals oil change at around 12,000 kms.

There's been a few times we've gone over that due to scheduling a change - don't think it's ever been under.

455,000+/- kms & counting.


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## blades (Aug 31, 2016)

jharkin said:


> Every 3k miles, for real?   Thats like a 1970's oil change interval.
> 
> 
> I find that very hard to believe, even "dirty" looking oil only has impurity levels in it measured in ppm.  There is nothing to "gunk up the works" unless you are running_ ridiculously _long intervals (like 30-50k) and get sludging.  If you dont believe me go look at used oil lab reports in the BITOG forums.
> ...


 Ya but GM Ford and Dodge ain't Honda and your Honda likely wasn't using plastic parts either in the timing section.   I am not a fan of plastic intake manifolds either.


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## jharkin (Sep 1, 2016)

Ashful said:


> When I drove my pickup truck every day (until six months ago), I still changed the dino oil every 3000 miles, without exception.  Now that I'm driving it much less, I've gone to the "every six months" model, which is probably every 1000-2000 miles (I drive it twice as much in winter).
> 
> My car runs full synthetic and has an oil life indicator, which will go off after roughly 6000 miles of "normal" driving, or just over 4000 miles of my driving.  Point being, usage has a lot to do with oil life.




Then you where probably wasting a lot of perfectly servicable oil.T he 3k interval is an old myth perpetuated by quick change shops to make money.  No mfg reccomends 3k anymore and even the longer intervals they recommend are usually conservative.


Send some of that 1000mi oil off to blackstone and I bet the analysis comes back squeaky  clean.

Have you ever been to BITOG?
http://bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-101/
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=cfrm




blades said:


> Ya but GM Ford and Dodge ain't Honda and your Honda likely wasn't using plastic parts either in the timing section.   I am not a fan of plastic intake manifolds either.



Plastic parts in the timing gear? 

But still, what does that have to do with oil cleanliness?

Now I could see it being a problem if the engine is prone to sludging, but sludging is usually due to poorly designed PCV systems (ie Toyota/VW) or low temp/moisture buildup...


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## sportbikerider78 (Sep 1, 2016)

Oil does not degrade sitting in an engine unless it was super dirty inside that engine. 

These days it isn't your engine that dies.  It is all of your accessories.  They are higher maintenance than the engine. 

Run a high quality synthetic..change every 6-12k miles and save your time.

It doesn't hurt to drain the transmission fluid and add what you removed.  Usually 3-5qts comes out.  Lots of people warn against transmission flushes.


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## blades (Sep 1, 2016)

jharkin said:


> Then you where probably wasting a lot of perfectly servicable oil.T he 3k interval is an old myth perpetuated by quick change shops to make money.  No mfg reccomends 3k anymore and even the longer intervals they recommend are usually conservative.
> 
> 
> Send some of that 1000mi oil off to blackstone and I bet the analysis comes back squeaky  clean.
> ...


 New engines 2005 ( overhead cam not push rod) up almost nothing as far as pvc and no EGR systems. Yep, lots of plastic under the hood now days including critical components-  Hydro tensioners plastic body metallic piston,  chain/ belt guides plastic,intake manifolds plastic. Radiator plastic, fuel tank plastic Drive by wire- mostly plastic, some pulleys/ sheaves are plastic almost all of the air intake system plastic.  Or how about this overhead cam engine One bearing at the drive point due to stress no bearings, sleeves or anything on the rest of the journals NO oil ports/grooves on them either Just the steel com shaft clamped down into the journals of an alum. head.


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## Ashful (Sep 1, 2016)

jharkin said:


> Then you where probably wasting a lot of perfectly servicable oil.T he 3k interval is an old myth perpetuated by quick change shops to make money.  No mfg reccomends 3k anymore and even the longer intervals they recommend are usually conservative.


Sorry, but this is wrong.  My Dodge 1500 owners manual does specify a 3000 mile oil change interval, if using the truck for towing, plowing, and hauling.  This is essentially all I use this truck for, so I am following the manufacturer's recommendation when I change at 3000 miles.

I do agree the old 3000 mile interval has been perpetuated by those making money on it, when many cars come with a recommended 5000 - 10,000 mile oil change recommendation, but you are overstating your case when you say no manufacturer recommends changing at 3000 mile intervals.


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## fbelec (Sep 1, 2016)

blades said:


> I am not a fan of plastic intake manifolds either.



agree. why they do something as stupid as that what did they lose 5 pounds. plastic has a different expansion temp and does a number on the gasket. and what i had happen was the heater hose broke off because of to many heat cold cycles


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## fbelec (Sep 1, 2016)

most trucks say if using it in severe duty change at 3000 miles or even some of the ford powerstrokes at 2500


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## iamlucky13 (Sep 1, 2016)

My curiosity dragged me to Bobistheoilguy for a few hours of learning at one point. Lots of posters there have had used oil analyses done, and even the non-synthetic oils were coming back good over 6000+ miles.

There's a few hardcore guys there who think way too much about oil who have progressively pushed their oil change intervals out by testing at each change, and incrementally increasing it until they're closing in on 20,000 miles, based on using really good synthetics. Part of the reason they can get that far is they're usually having to add at least a quart of make up oil over that time, so the detergents and viscosity modifiers that are used up or wear out over time are getting replenished.

Basically, Bobistheoilguy does the auto world a huge favor by proving there is no real reason for Bobistheoilguy to exist, or more importantly, for anybody to worry about changing oil at greater frequencies than the manual recommends.

At 200,000 miles on my Civic, and now burning a quart every 3-4,000 miles, I really should stop spending the extra money on Mobil-1, but saving $15 every 7500 miles isn't quite enough incentive to give up on the peace of mind running synthetic provides.


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## woodgeek (Sep 3, 2016)

No worries, in 10 years you all will be driving EVs, and this maintenance nonsense will be much less.

No plugs, no pistons, no crankshaft, no timing belt, no fuel injectors, no fuel system, no muffler, no exhaust system, no cat, no tranny, no oil pan/pump/oil changes (sealed bearings), no alternator, no starter motor, little brake wear (regen brakes).  

Has a 1/2 size 12V lead acid battery to run the on board computer and buffer the 12VDC powered accessories, run by a 3000W 12V supply powered off the 440VDC traction battery.  The 12V batt had no trouble booting the computer at 5°F, it started right up.

Scheduled maintenance on my 2013 LEAF is:
--Rubber parts: wipers (still ok after 2 years) and tires (the torque and weight EAT LRR tires, I will be lucky to get 25k miles)
--Cabin air filter every 15 k miles or annually.
--Brake shoes, as needed, rarely. Change brake fluid every 30k miles.
--Replace coolant every 125,000 miles or 15 years (cooling system is about 1/5 size of an ICE car)

Early adopter problems:
--the 2013 model had an AC system defect/recall (leaked all refrigerant in about 12-20 mos), warranty repair.
--EV batteries are still expensive and small.  My 2013 will need a new battery pack at 80,000 miles or 7-8 years of age (best guess), current replacement cost is $5500.    This cost works out to be 6 cents/mile, which is higher than my 'fuel' costs, which are about 4-5 cents/mile.

I"m leasing, so I'll never pay to replace the battery.  Newer EVs with bigger batteries will go longer between battery replacements (figure 1000 cycles, or 1000x full EV range), and the battery costs (per mile) will keep falling.


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## fbelec (Sep 4, 2016)

not to rain on your parade but i would never buy a electric vehicle. it's just a new way for the car company to jam it up the you know what. 5500 dollars for a battery. that's ridiculous. they must be using gold and platinum plates in those batteries. one doesn't go very far on a charge other than the tesla. what they should be working on is the hydrogen engine. clean burning so oil will go a lot further for the engine. most good cars today get over 200 k miles out of a engine. and let's face it every one of us has dealing with electric motors everyday air conditioners, furnace fans, box fans, refrigerator and the like. the bearings go bad in them all the time. that's my reasons for not buying a electric vehicle. i am not attacking anyone that has a electric vehicle, i am just for conversation saying why the electric vehicle today has a long road before it's worth buying in my opinion. woodgeek i mean no disrespect and wish you the best with your nissan. i got a customer that i wired a charger for has a bmw i3 he can only get 83 miles to a charge. this is the type of stuff that the car companies need to work on before they use us as a tester for their company.

somehow i think i might have started another (which is best a bottom up or top down fire start) comment


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## woodgeek (Sep 4, 2016)

fbelec said:


> not to rain on your parade but i would never buy a electric vehicle. it's just a new way for the car company to jam it up the you know what. 5500 dollars for a battery. that's ridiculous. they must be using gold and platinum plates in those batteries. one doesn't go very far on a charge other than the tesla. what they should be working on is the hydrogen engine. clean burning so oil will go a lot further for the engine. most good cars today get over 200 k miles out of a engine. and let's face it every one of us has dealing with electric motors everyday air conditioners, furnace fans, box fans, refrigerator and the like. the bearings go bad in them all the time. that's my reasons for not buying a electric vehicle. i am not attacking anyone that has a electric vehicle, i am just for conversation saying why the electric vehicle today has a long road before it's worth buying in my opinion. woodgeek i mean no disrespect and wish you the best with your nissan. i got a customer that i wired a charger for has a bmw i3 he can only get 83 miles to a charge. this is the type of stuff that the car companies need to work on before they use us as a tester for their company.
> 
> somehow i think i might have started another (which is best a bottom up or top down fire start) comment



No offense fbelec...its still new tech and time will tell.  With a 90 mile range with cheap per mile costs, its a great commuter for my wife, on a 40 mile round trip.  We have another vehicle for family long roadtrips. I don't trust the tech either....so I got a sweet (cheap) 3 year lease, anything breaks, they fix it.

A lot fewer moving parts, esp in the drivetrain, makes me think the durability will be great.  As for ICE engines....figure 200k miles at (average) 30 mph implies only *7000 *running hours on the engine.  Most (even cheapo) electric motors can manage 3-5x that.

The tech is improving rapidly, and getting cheaper.  Nissan's 2017 model is supposed to have a 140 mile range, and will likely cost the same as the 2013 model.


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## fbelec (Sep 6, 2016)

i would like to see a real world cost per charge. because the charge varies from how dead it is to when it is getting near charged it hard to say how much electricity the charger used without having a meter hooked up from start to finish. amperage varies from when starting from dead to recharging from half. and i don't mean the time it takes. also not knowing the design does it work like a regular wet cell or gel cell that stays in trickle charge state until it is unplugged.


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## woodgeek (Sep 6, 2016)

fbelec said:


> i would like to see a real world cost per charge. because the charge varies from how dead it is to when it is getting near charged it hard to say how much electricity the charger used without having a meter hooked up from start to finish. amperage varies from when starting from dead to recharging from half. and i don't mean the time it takes. also not knowing the design does it work like a regular wet cell or gel cell that stays in trickle charge state until it is unplugged.



A lot of folks have looked at this, and the AC into the charger (EVSE) to battery output round trip energy efficiency is about 85%.  The charge cycle is complex, but the charge/energy efficiency is high for lithium ion across the charge range.  It does a 'trickle' cell equalize cycle at the end of the charge cycle, for about 60 minutes and then it cuts the traction battery off completely.

We drive the car aggressively on mostly rural back roads, (40-45 mph), and get 3.5 miles/kWh seasonal average (higher in the summer).

3.5 * 0.85 = 3 mi/kWh_AC_in.  At my 14.5 cent/kwh rate (PA wind power), that is *4.83 cents/mile*, all in.  As above, the 'implied' battery cost per mile is higher (until the tech gets cheaper), but that is rolled into my (low) lease price.


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## sportbikerider78 (Sep 6, 2016)

What is the total environmental impact of manufacturing, recycling and disposing of an electric car vs equivalent gas car?  Batteries are super caustic to manufacture and dispose of. 
Personally, I think we should all be driving efficient diesels like in Europe,,,but the taxation and regulations can't get out of our way.

My AC went on my 2011 Pathfinder that I have had zero problems with.  Oh well..we'll see what the dealer has to say this week.


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## jb6l6gc (Sep 6, 2016)

sportbikerider78 said:


> What is the total environmental impact of manufacturing, recycling and disposing of an electric car vs equivalent gas car?  Batteries are super caustic to manufacture and dispose of.
> Personally, I think we should all be driving efficient diesels like in Europe,,,but the taxation and regulations can't get out of our way.
> 
> My AC went on my 2011 Pathfinder that I have had zero problems with.  Oh well..we'll see what the dealer has to say this week.


Problem is their diesels wouldn't even run on our diesel fuel.  They are way ahead of us on fuel tech.  I agree though I wish I could buy a good Deisel other than a Volkswagen, right now you still cannot even buy those in Canada!


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## woodgeek (Sep 6, 2016)

sportbikerider78 said:


> What is the total environmental impact of manufacturing, recycling and disposing of an electric car vs equivalent gas car?  Batteries are super caustic to manufacture and dispose of.
> Personally, I think we should all be driving efficient diesels like in Europe,,,but the taxation and regulations can't get out of our way.
> 
> My AC went on my 2011 Pathfinder that I have had zero problems with.  Oh well..we'll see what the dealer has to say this week.



Its comparable to building a gas car, according to many studies. And much smaller then the environmental impact of extracting and refining and burning several thousand gallons of gasoline.  The metals in the battery are highly recyclable as well.


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## Ashful (Sep 6, 2016)

woodgeek said:


> 3.5 * 0.85 = 3 mi/kWh_AC_in.  At my 14.5 cent/kwh rate (PA wind power), that is *4.83 cents/mile*, all in.  As above, the 'implied' battery cost per mile is higher (until the tech gets cheaper), but that is rolled into my (low) lease price.


You're implying that low cost per mile is somehow a metric of merit for a car, but how many would rather drive a LEAF versus a Ferrari F12 or Mercedes AMG E63?  Both of these cars burn gas at a rate closer to 20 cents per mile.  That, and the glut of folks driving Escalades and Lexus LX's, seem to indicate this metric is very low on the list of most drivers.


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## blades (Sep 6, 2016)

darn things are too pricey at this stage. ( not that any of everything isn't) add to that that I would assume the resale value to take a major nose dive when getting close to battery replacement- considering that as of now it is about a third of the whole new package cost. ( ya i saw what was stated as cost above- just figure by the time the dealer gets through it will more on the order of $10g)
Leasing  -  payments at or near buying with a loan- end of 3 years give vehicle  back - got nothing. at least if ya buy it ya can get some scrap money out of


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## woodgeek (Sep 6, 2016)

Ashful said:


> You're implying that low cost per mile is somehow a metric of merit for a car, but how many would rather drive a LEAF versus a Ferrari F12 or Mercedes AMG E63?  Both of these cars burn gas at a rate closer to 20 cents per mile.  That, and the glut of folks driving Escalades and Lexus LX's, seem to indicate this metric is very low on the list of most drivers.



Not a muscle car...but a much more pleasant driving experience than any of the older **Toyota** sedans that we have driven before.  Since we are not 'car proud' the low cost per mile helped with the decision...the new LEAF cost nearly the same amount as the 10 yo Camry (factoring in then $3/gas, depreciation and anticipated repairs).

And it is a lot better to drive.  Peppy, quiet, smooth, low CG cornering, great in the snow...a very nice (and nearly free) upgrade for us.

And the topic of the tread is the cost of maintenance....if money was no object, we would all be driving newish cars and getting the dealer treatment.  If money was no object why is everyone driving a car needing expensive maintenance?  

Most people don't think about total cost of ownership....but some people do.


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## Ashful (Sep 6, 2016)

Some folks just don't get sarcasm...


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## sportbikerider78 (Sep 22, 2016)

woodgeek said:


> Its comparable to building a gas car, according to many studies. And much smaller then the environmental impact of extracting and refining and burning several thousand gallons of gasoline.  The metals in the battery are highly recyclable as well.



Wired is a pretty middle of the road tech rag.  Its not exactly all roses.
https://www.wired.com/2016/03/teslas-electric-cars-might-not-green-think/


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## begreen (Sep 22, 2016)

Kind of a weak argument in several cases. 
"Other, rare metals are sprinkled throughout the car, mostly in the magnets that are in everything from the headlights to the on-board electronics."
Yes, and the same is true for most modern cars, electric or gas. 
More of a problem is the lack of a cradle to grave policy in America that requires that as much as possible of the car's components are recyclable. This policy is in place in Europe. Humans have an enormous negative impact on the health of the planet. This can be reduced, but only if we develop the national will to do better and not treat nature as a depository for endless consumption and profit.


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## iamlucky13 (Sep 22, 2016)

It's an incomplete argument, not strictly a weak one. Life cycle analysis fills in the missing part of the argument.

Union of Concern Scientists is one of several organizations that have been studying on the question of overall electric vehicle emissions. They're a fairly reputable independent organization, consistently in favor of reducing emissions and increasing vehicle mileage, among other things, but they have also raised the question about the actual life cycle benefits.

They estimate the manufacturing emissions from EV's range from 15-68% higher than equivalent-featured gasoline powered vehicles. That includes the relatively exotic materials like lithium in the batteries, and I assume also the rare earths in the motors. However, because the bulk of a vehicle's emissions come from its use, not its construction, they can achieve net emissions savings high manufacturing emissions in as little as 6 months use (for the shorter range vehicles).

http://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicles/electric-vehicles/life-cycle-ev-emissions

The average person doesn't care about the nitty gritty, however. At most, the average person has seen the big mileage-equivalence numbers on the EPA window stickers for EV's, and heard the counterclaims that the numbers are bogus because they only compare energy consumption from the point where its delivered to the vehicle, ignoring how effectively that energy was delivered to the vehicle. The sticker is useful for estimating fuel costs, but not for comparing emissions.

So halfway down that page is a map that the average person should find interesting.

UCS created a map that creates an alternate mileage equivalence: for each region, they use EPA data for electrical generating emissions to figure out the mileage at which a gasoline powered car would have the same emissions as an average electric car (electric cars mostly fall in a +/- 10% range for electric consumption, so simply using the average doesn't affect the accuracy of the calculation much).

As you will see in the map*, there are actually locations where the better conventional gasoline powered cars can have lower emissions than electrics, and others where its a toss-up between an electric and a good hybrid. Yet there are also quite a few regions where electric cars have clearly lower emissions than both hybrid and conventional cars.

On to the question of disposal: lithium-ion batteries are not particularly difficult to dispose of safely, but recycling is obviously highly preferred, at least as much to help the economics of battery production as to reduce environment impacts. Unfortunately, while materials like the battery casing are currently recycled, the lithium is much more difficult to recycle, in part because of the wide range of types of lithium ion batteries. There's a decent overview of that topic here:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2214993714000037

* I'm more or less certain something is wrong with their emissions data for the sparsely populated parts of Alaska (AKMS). I suspect it's related to reduced reporting requirements for small utilities. A lot of the small communities in Alaska have small, community owned diesel power plants. They should actually have one of the worst miles per gallon equivalent ratings, not the best in the entire nation.


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## begreen (Sep 22, 2016)

Also not accounted for are the components that wear out  in a gas car that are not in an electric vehicle or have much longer wear life. Examples would be exhaust system components, injectors, water pumps, timing belts, plugs, etc.. A longer wear-life example would be brakes which last much longer due to regenerative braking. Emissions in many IC cars may also degrade over time depending on the state of tune and age and the amount of oil burned.


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