# a 2013 Leaf for the woodgeeks



## woodgeek (May 8, 2014)

The wife and I commute in opposite directions, me into Philly on the train, her to the exurbs by car. 

We have a new-ish Mazda5 microvan for family roadtrips, and an 11 yo high-mileage Camry, which was her previous commuter car, now retired to 'second car' status.  Commuting in the Mazda is a gas-guzzler.

We just traded in the Camry for a Nissan Leaf lease.  It will be her new commuter.

Looks like this:







Nissan's 'teaser' lease rate is $199/mo, $2k down, 3 years, 36k miles (about what she does commuting).  With taxes and upgrades, we got out of there for $240/mo.

I ran a whole spreadsheet for this....the most attractive part is the >$5000 net savings in fuel costs over 36k miles, more than half the monthly cost.  Factor in depreciation and anticipated repairs in the other cars, and the monthly cost of ownership is ~$60/mo. 

And it should save ~21 tons of CO2 by 2017, run on 100% wind power coming in at $0.124/kWh.

Will provide user review later....


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## begreen (May 8, 2014)

Congratulations. That will be quite a change. We love driving all electric.


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## Vic99 (May 8, 2014)

Fantastic!

Interested in what you think of the electric drivetrain.  I have a Chevy Volt and it is very smooth and very quick if I need it to be.  I wanted a green car, but the driving experience is such an added bonus.


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## woodgeek (May 8, 2014)

Haven't gotten to drive it yet myself,  but the quiet ride is very nice.  Your sense of speed on the freeway is all skewed.  Going 65 and it feels like you are driving through the neighborhood at 25.


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## Jags (May 8, 2014)

Madzda5 is a gas guzzler??  Who knew.


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## woodgeek (May 8, 2014)

The 5 is the low-end offering, and gets a low-end engine, not Mazda's super eff engine.  She was getting 21.5 mpg on her back country commute.  Better than a minivan, but not much.


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## Jags (May 8, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> She was getting 21.5 mpg on her back country commute. Better than a minivan, but not much.



That is disgusting.


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## Slow1 (May 8, 2014)

Congrats - I've been tempted by the Leaf as well.  Never leased a car though as we are more of the "drive it until it can't be driven anymore before getting rid of it" type... of course that is part of what is keeping me from justifying a new car.

Did you get one of their chargers for the house or how do you plan to manage charging?  I seem to recall that at some point Nissan had a deal where they essentially gave the charger away if you got a Leaf - I haven't heard about that much lately though....


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## woodgeek (May 8, 2014)

Agree on the lease thing....we are buy and drive into ground people.  The EV issue makes for the difference.  I'm not too worried about the battery croaking in <10 years, but I figure the tech will be a lot better/cheaper in 3-5 years than now.

We also didn't really know how we would like it in hard use....a 3 year 'experiment' is easier than buying one that loses a lot of value as soon as it drives off the lot.  Maybe we will want a PHEV later...  Right now, the idea of paying for and dragging around a big gas generator for the occasional trip does not appeal...but then we already have a 'first vehicle' for road trips.

The Leaf comes with a 1.3 kW Level 1 charger with a 120V plug and 20' cord.  Keep in mind that the Battery has a 24 kWh capacity, and gets 3-4 mi/kWh.  So, the spouse will use ~10 kWh on her 32 mile commute, 8 hours to recharge on the L1 charger.  Ok but not great.

I DID buy a 32A 240V Level 2 charger, which connected to the 6 kW on board charger in the Leaf can recharge from 0% in 4 hours.  When she gets home from work, depleted 10 kWh, it is topped off in ~90 minutes.  Better.  I got a Bosch model from Amazon, ran about $500 and will install it myself on a #8AWG, 40A breaker branch.  Short run from the box.  The Nissan dealer would find me a charger and installer, but it would've run ~$2k.  No thanks.

The model we got also has the 'Quick Charge' option (aka Level 3), a separate plug that runs off a 50 kW DC station.  Those stations are pretty rare (and too expensive for home use, about $15k), but charge 0-80% in ~20 minutes.  At that charge speed, they don't go over 80% SOC to protect the battery.  If they put a few on I-95, I could drive the whole NE corridor.  As it is, NYC and Washington DC are too far (100 and 150 mi respectively), unless we stopped a few hours once along the way (no thanks).  As it is, its our Philly Metro runabout.


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## Highbeam (May 8, 2014)

Do you make "vroom vroom" sounds as you drive?


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## woodgeek (May 8, 2014)

It has a tone generator which goes for low speed forward travel.  Hard to describe.  It also beeps when it backs up....not as loud as a truck.

.  I would like the sounds to be customizable....and wanted the forward one to be 'vroom vroom'.


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## jebatty (May 9, 2014)

Greatly looking forward to our electric car day ... it is getting closer. 

But we also just made an intentional step backward and bought a used 2011 Toyota Avalon. My wife retired, this now is her car, and she loves it. For our type of driving, which is not much stop and go but mostly trips in the 400 mile round trip range, mpg comes in right around 29 mpg. All of our previous cars have been Camrys, kept into the mid-200,000 mile range and then sold. 

Have to blame ... or credit our daughter for the purchase. She wanted my wife's 2005 Camry, 165,000 miles, so she says to Mom: "Mom, you deserve a new car." Of course, daughter ended up with the 2005, mission accomplished.


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## woodgeek (May 9, 2014)

We put >100k miles on our used 2003 Camry, lots of great memories, but really not a great car.  The automatic tran shifted really rough, skidded out on starts if you hit too much gas, no traction control (of course, given the vintage), couldn't climb our driveway in the winter....

Everyone is all about safety....and I guess I feel that the traction control + ABS brakes + 6 airbags, all common in current cars, is safer than none of the above + 1 airbag.

The Leaf tests out very well in crash tests.

We get some nice rain events here (got 5.5" over several hours a couple weeks ago), so the wife asked me about 'wading'...i.e. shorting out the Leaf....I looked it up, and it is designed to have a greater wading depth than most gasmobiles.  I said if she saw another car (not a Land Rover ) driving through without stalling, she was good to go.


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## Where2 (May 9, 2014)

Has anyone computed the conversion efficiency of the various chargers? If you depleted the EV batteries by 10kWh, how many AC kWh does it take to put 10kWh DC back in the batteries?



Jags said:


> That is disgusting.


Sounds like something that went through my mind. My daily driver is a 2004 Jetta Wagon getting 40mpg city, with ABS and 8 airbags. I chuckle when I hear an automobile ad saying a vehicle gets 35mpg highway, as if it's "amazing!".


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## woodgeek (May 9, 2014)

According to EV forums...there is a ~10% difference between energy from grid and recoverable energy in battery.  I would guess that a good portion of that is unavoidable (thermodynamic) losses in the battery chemical reaction.

Nissan bills the on board charger I have as 6.6 kW, but battery energy goes up closer to 6 kWh per h, or maybe a little less.


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## mellow (May 9, 2014)

I will keep an eye on this thread.  MPT just ran a special on a couple out in Oakland, MD that took a leaf all the way to Ocean City, MD using public charging stations.

http://bayweek.mpt.org/programs/#electric


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## velvetfoot (May 9, 2014)

I heard Tesla is building an ultra fast charging station at a mall near hear.  I think they're counting on through traffic.  I doubt other makes will be able to use it.


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## woodgeek (May 9, 2014)

Correct....there is a US, Japan and European super-charger 'standard', called 'Chademo'.  Tesla will not allow Chademo cars (basically all non Tesla EVs) to charge at their tesla supercharger stations, but is planning to sell adapters for their cars to use Chademo chargers.  

Aaaah, the efficiency of capitalism....we will have at least two DC charging networks. 

Right now, these companies are struggling with the different turnpike authorities, and the NJT has told Tesla that they will not provide their land for use with 'proprietary' charging stations....

Nissan is **trying** to get things started by putting Chademo stations at select Nissan dealerships.  There are three such in Philly Metro.


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## mellow (May 9, 2014)

By looking at carstations.com it looks like most Nissian dealers here in MD have a chademo charging station now.

This reminds me of DVD burner wars, see which format wins out.


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## woodgeek (May 9, 2014)

mellow said:


> By looking at carstations.com it looks like most Nissan dealers here in MD have a chademo charging station now.
> 
> This reminds me of DVD burner wars, see which format wins out.



Indeed.   There are plenty of fastchargers if we go to DC, but right now there are squat between Wilmington DE and Baltimore, 74 miles on I-95, which is pretty 'iffy' range wise (prob more like ~65 miles at 70 mph).  In the other direction, a similar 90 miles from Warminster PA Chademo to NYC area.

No EV roadtrips for a little while. On the bright side a one hour L2 stop along the way would prob do the trick, but there is also a dearth of L2's along 95 in both areas.


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## begreen (May 9, 2014)

As our primary car, we're fortunate that our general driving is all within the range of the Volt. About 80% of our mileage so far is on electric. The I5 corridor is pretty well setup for charging, but if we want to to east and over the mountains, the genset handles it well. The biggest surprise with the car is how well it handles. I am driving notably faster at times than I was in the Prius.  Need to watch that (but it's heckuva lot of fun on winding country roads).


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## firebroad (May 9, 2014)

Mazel Tov, Woodie!
That is a lovely vehicle.  Does it eat any more power with A/C than a gas car?
Keep us posted on costs and upkeep.


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## woodgeek (May 9, 2014)

AC does deplete the main battery, but the cabin heater is much worse (resistance heater is lower COP, and more BTUs needed).  For this reason all Leafs come with heated front and rear seats and heated steering wheel standard!  That is, there is a cabin heater, but they figure folks will be sparing with it.  AC should be ok.  The fancy trims model year 2013 and after have a ASHP cabin heater to alleviate this problem.

I got the base model trim, so no HP on wheels for me.


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## Where2 (May 9, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> No EV roadtrips for a little while. On the bright side a one hour L2 stop along the way would prob do the trick, but there is also a dearth of L2's along 95 in both areas.



How much vehicle space would hauling your Bosch L2 charger take up? An enterprising campground chain could allow you to plugin your L2 charger into a 50A RV outlet for 2-4hrs with no infrastructure upgrades. They already have a parking space and a power pedestal with 50A service in many cases, as long as you came with a L2 charger outfitted with an appropriate plug. 

Next you'll need a hotel chain with charging stations or power pedestals.


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## woodgeek (May 9, 2014)

Where2 said:


> How much vehicle space would hauling your Bosch L2 charger take up? An enterprising campground chain could allow you to plugin your L2 charger into a 50A RV outlet for 2-4hrs with no infrastructure upgrades. They already have a parking space and a power pedestal with 50A service in many cases, as long as you came with a L2 charger outfitted with an appropriate plug.
> 
> Next you'll need a hotel chain with charging stations or power pedestals.



I likey.  L2 charger is certainly portable, and could be pigtailed to an RV plug.  As a non-Rv'er, anyone wanna guess how friendly a typical RV park will be to me pulling in for a 2 hour, 13 kWh pit stop on the 240V?  Would they do it for $5?


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## Highbeam (May 9, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> I likey.  L2 charger is certainly portable, and could be pigtailed to an RV plug.  As a non-Rv'er, anyone wanna guess how friendly a typical RV park will be to me pulling in for a 2 hour, 13 kWh pit stop on the 240V?  Would they do it for $5?



Depends on vacancy rates. They wouldn't give up a customer for you.


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## velvetfoot (May 9, 2014)

The Tesla stations take a half hour to charge, they said.  Time enough for a latte at Starbucks at that mall.  I don't know about spending time at a Nissan dealership, unless they have nice coffee machines like BMW does.  The Volt sounds intriguing to me.  I didn't know about the good handling.  A plethora a solar panels on the hacienda would also help.


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## woodgeek (May 10, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> Depends on vacancy rates. They wouldn't give up a customer for you.



Sure.  Can I safely assume that all RV parks will have 240V 50A 4-prong receptacles (NEMA 14-50R)?  Or will many of them only have some bogus 3 pin jobber?

What I love is that the 'L2 charger' is really just a relay box that cuts the power to the car connector (a SAE J1772 style) until it is plugged in, and the car has sent the correct signal.  IOW, the $500 'charger' just passes 240VAC directly through, basically just a relay, and the car's onboard system turns it into DC. I suppose the major goal is safety...want to go slinging 240V connectors in the dark and in the rain?  The connector can also be 'locked' to the car so that another person can't come up and steal your connector during public charging.

The RV plug seems to have no such safety features.  Not even 'passive protection' like the simple recess seen in Euro-style 240V plugs.  Not really an issue for the cord on your range or clothes dryer of course...but any lore about RVers zotting themselves with these things??


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## woodgeek (May 10, 2014)

Ok, seems that EV folks going to RV parks is a 'thing'.  Experiences vary, as expected.  

On reflection the utility seems limited as a source of extra L2 chargers.  Not a lot of RV campgrounds along the NE corridor, I-95, or near the different metro areas.  If I had to EV drive Philly to Pittsburgh, I suppose they would come in handy.


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## Highbeam (May 10, 2014)

The standard rv hookup is a 30 amp 120 volt 3prong thing that looks like an oversized wall plug. Only the oddball, extra huge, bus looking motorhome will utilize the 50 amp deal. Some trailers too. Dual rooftop ac units seem to be the need that necessitates the big service.

If I was going to depend on rv hookups, I would much rather use the 30 amp 120 connection if you can make it work.

A limited# of parks have power, of those only a few stalls (if any) will have 50 amps.


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## velvetfoot (May 10, 2014)

I bet there is a Leaf forum out there where people brag about driving across the country and back.  That would be quite a feat, and tedious as well.


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## woodgeek (May 10, 2014)

Got it HB.  120V/12A is only gonna get me 5 mi/hour.  Fine for car camping at a few parks within my one-way range, and being recharged before I leave.  The L2 charger needs 240V/27A and gets me more like 20 miles/hour, still not that useful for a roadtrip.


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## woodgeek (May 10, 2014)

*Functional Update:*  The spouse commuted to work yesterday, and noodled around with the kid errands all afternoon, never thinking about a plug.  Had about 50% charge/range left at dinner time when we plugged it in.  All recharged at 7AM with the L1 'trickle' charger.

She is v happy with it.

L2 goes in this WE.


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## woodgeek (May 10, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> I bet there is a Leaf forum out there where people brag about driving across the country and back.  That would be quite a feat, and tedious as well.



I know its been done, and might be a fun way to see the country if you had the time/desire to do it 50 mi at time.  I would def embark with a portable L2 charger, a slew of adapter cords for RV outlets, and a couple spare tires.


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## velvetfoot (May 10, 2014)

Why the tires?  I read the Tesla has a 172 mile range.  Of course, it costs 70K.  I actually saw one blasting up the Interstate on the way to Montreal a couple of weeks ago.  It was from Canada.


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## woodgeek (May 10, 2014)

The Leaf does *not* have an onboard spare, donut or otherwise, or a jack.  Also, the tires are 'lo-rise' and IMO don't take a lot of hard driving without failure. It comes with a little bottle of goo and a pump, prob ok for a slow leak or pucture to get to a garage, but not anything more dramatic.

Oh yeah, the manual says that towing should be flatbed only!

Out in the 'boonies', I would prob want a couple spare tires, at least one on a spare rim.


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## Highbeam (May 10, 2014)

I am happy for you woody. My daily coomute is 16 miles roundtrip and i drive my 7500# f350.


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## semipro (May 11, 2014)

Drove a friend's Leaf some time back -- what a blast to drive.
Its a pretty innovative car. How its heats the driver in winter is interesting and apparently more efficient the idea being to heat more the surfaces that touch the driver rather than the air in the car.


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## woodgeek (May 11, 2014)

L2 charger installed uneventfully.  Pushing 6.6 kW into the 'pack' as we post.


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## velvetfoot (May 11, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> L2 charger installed uneventfully.  Pushing 6.6 kW into the 'pack' as we post.


Is that something you have to pay someone to do?


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## Where2 (May 11, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> Is that something you have to pay someone to do?



Likely depends on where you live. It would require $40 worth of electrical permit where I live. From all the reviews I read online it sounds like it requires a 40A 2-pole circuit breaker with L1, L2 and Ground conductors run from your panel to wherever you decide to mount the charging station. Could be easy or complicated depending on available space in your electrical panel and routing convenience between your panel and where you park the EV.


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## woodgeek (May 11, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> Is that something you have to pay someone to do?



If you are comfortable running a new circuit from your breaker box, no.

Parts list:
The 'EVSE' (Electrical Vehicle Supply Equipment):  
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FM7B1AO/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 
37' of #8AWG, 2 con + grnd wire: ~$55
40A 240V duplex circuit breaker:  ~$8
3 copper lugs for #6 wire: ~$5
a few tapcons, scrap of plywood and wood screws for mounting on concrete wall: $3

total of ~$650 and maybe a 2-hour job.  Took me half a day to clean most of the junk out of my garage.


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## velvetfoot (May 11, 2014)

Sweet.  I wonder what it costs to get 480 volts (would that be "3 phase") to the house.


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## woodgeek (May 11, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> Sweet.  I wonder what it costs to get 480 volts (would that be "3 phase") to the house.



The L3 chargers are 480V DC, ~100A, and start at $15000.  Not a lot of them in folks' garages.


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## velvetfoot (May 11, 2014)

And that's just for the charger.


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## woodgeek (May 12, 2014)

Lots of press this week that Nissan wants to double the Leaf's range, and has new battery tech in the pipeline to do it in the next few years.  If we assume that the current range is 60 mi worst case (highway, winter), the new vehicle would be 120 miles minimum, 150 typical.  They are talking about a $5k upcharge on the vehicle cost. I think that would be a killer app for EVs, esp with lower cost L2 home chargers (they should cost $100-200 tops), and a decent network of chademo chargers for roadtrips.

http://green.autoblog.com/2014/05/08/next-gen-nissan-leaf-will-look-more-mainstream-have-more-range/
http://www.greencarreports.com/news...kely-to-offer-larger-battery-for-longer-range

lest you think this is pie in the sky....a few other competing, low cost EVs are being launched with ranges 10-25% higher than the current leaf, suggesting that the tech has matured since the 2010 launch.

http://ecomento.com/2014/03/28/2015-nissan-leaf-to-get-135-mile-range/


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## begreen (May 12, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> Is that something you have to pay someone to do?


I installed my Level 2 charger. Most of the time was spent running the wire to the new location. It took a few hours, but I am very glad I did it.


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## woodgeek (May 12, 2014)

begreen said:


> I installed my Level 2 charger. Most of the time was spent running the wire to the new location. It took a few hours, but I am very glad I did it.



Which one did you go for...the Volt is 3.3 kW, right?


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## begreen (May 12, 2014)

I have the Clipper Creek LCS-25. Charges at 20 amps, but the Volt only accepts 16,  which is about 4 hrs for a full charge. So far no friends with Leafs have visited, but I am ready.


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## CaptSpiff (May 12, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> The Leaf comes with a 1.3 kW Level 1 charger with a 120V plug and 20' cord.  Keep in mind that the Battery has a 24 kWh capacity, and gets 3-4 mi/kWh.  So, the spouse will use ~10 kWh on her 32 mile commute, 8 hours to recharge on the L1 charger.  Ok but not great.


OK, help me with the math:

My car gets about 22 mpg overall. So at $3.80/gal, that's about 5.8 miles/$.

Your EV gets 3 miles/kwh overall, so at my $0.23/kwh, that's about 13 miles/$.

You folks who only pay $0.12/kwh would be getting 25 miles/$. Wow. That's sweet!


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## woodgeek (May 13, 2014)

Yup.  At $0.12/kWh (the national average), the fuel cost per mile is roughly *25%* that of gasoline at 22mpg.  I think spouse is actually getting 3.5 mi/kWh.

The net $5000 savings over 36k miles pays about half of the lease cost.  When I estimated repair, maintenance and depreciation on the vehicles it replaced, that was another few thou.  I think I am out of pocket for $60/mo on the lease.

In PA, I was able to buy 100% wind power for $0.124/kWh on a 2 year contract (current rates are slightly higher), so I have zero carbon emissions per mile at the same time.


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## woodgeek (May 13, 2014)

begreen said:


> I have the Clipper Creek LCS-25. Charges at 20 amps, but the Volt only accepts 16,  which is about 4 hrs for a full charge. So far no friends with Leafs have visited, but I am ready.



I figure my 30A EVSE will be aok for Leafy or Volty visitors, and the Teslas will just have to hang out awhile (they can charge at up to 80A off L2  ).


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## Highbeam (May 13, 2014)

CaptSpiff said:


> OK, help me with the math:
> 
> My car gets about 22 mpg overall. So at $3.80/gal, that's about 5.8 miles/$.
> 
> ...


 
My last bill for over 1000 kwh worked out to less than 10 cents per kwh "all-in". My truck returns 15 mpg with 3.80$ fuel. It would be a big money saver for me.

The flip side would be the guy paying 23 cents per kwh while fueling his VW diesel at 50 mpg using 3.80 diesel. He would see less savings.

I prefer the backup genset of the volt for long trips but the next gen long range battery from the leaf might be almost as useful.


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## Where2 (May 13, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> ...The flip side would be the guy paying 23 cents per kwh while fueling his VW diesel at 50 mpg using 3.80 diesel. He would see less savings..


My VW's need some $3.80 diesel, I haven't seen it that cheap in months... (Yes 50mpg does happen)

My worst "all in" month was $0.31/kWh, but that was the month I only used 42kWh. Last month was a more reasonable $0.12/kWh since I used 212kWh... Problem is: I only spend $64 per month for diesel. So, I'd only save $38/mo on fuel unless I built a bigger solar farm...


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## Highbeam (May 13, 2014)

Where2 said:


> My VW's need some $3.80 diesel, I haven't seen it that cheap in months... (Yes 50mpg does happen)


 
Diesel was 3.69$ per gallon at my station this morning. Gasoline at 3.75 which is what I'm burning in my 70 mpg motorcycle when the weather is favorable such as this week.

"All-in" electrical costs per kwh are nearly useless when you use such a small amount. The base fees and rates make up such a large percentage of the kwh that you can't gain much value from that figure.


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## Seasoned Oak (May 13, 2014)

DId you consider the volt when looking? And if so what made you choose the leaf.?


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## woodgeek (May 13, 2014)

Didn't consider it at all after seeing the specs.  The biggest issue is price.  The base trim Volt costs $10k more than the Leaf, and the teaser lease rate is $100/mo more.  And the fuel savings would be the same (if all miles were EV miles) or less (if they weren't).   So, instead of getting a car with a 60-80 mile EV range for net $60/mo, I would get a car with a 30-40 mile EV range that cost $160+/mo net, that could also burn gas if needed (which I won't need, b/c I already have another, bigger car for the occasional roadtrips, or short second car errand). 

For someone with one car, a PHEV might make sense, but the EV range on the Volt would be marginal for the wife's needs.

From my POV, all that hybrid drivetrain cost money that I am not interested in paying for (since I wouldn't need/use it).

The Leaf has no gas tank, no emission system, no oil, and AFAIK the Volt has all of that stuff.  Only Leaf maintenance is tires, wipers, blue stuff and an annual battery checkup at the dealer (for Nissan engineering).


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## begreen (May 13, 2014)

Makes sense. Our priorities were entirely different. We purchased. I negotiated a sweet price for the Volt that after tax credit was almost the same that we paid for our Prius in 2006. It is our primary driving car and great on trips, yet a hoot to drive on our local curvy country roads. Its great handling has been an unexpected surprise. The Volt's electric range covers about 90% of our driving. We are on our 4th tank of gas in almost a year of ownership. Almost all the gas used has been on trips. It has been a nice step up from the Prius.


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## woodgeek (May 14, 2014)

So, took a longer look at the Volt, and read a bit of Leaf bashing on Volt fora, and a few things emerge...

some obvious....
--Most people who buy the Leaf or the Volt are happy with their purchase.
--The Volt costs 33% more than the Leaf, seats 4 instead of 5, and has less interior and cargo space and headroom.
--Volt drivers seem to prefer the more conventional exterior styling, more lux interior styling, sporty driving and 25% higher horsepower of the Volt.
--Volt drivers talk a LOT about this thing called 'Range Anxiety', Leaf drivers not so much.  Probably selection bias.
--Both Volt and Leaf drivers love to dis the Prius, as a car that has similar price/performance, but much higher fuel costs, emissions and cost of ownership.

some less obvious....
--While the Volt battery pack and EV range is half that of the Leaf, Volt drivers will much more often run it down to 0% (or wherever the gen cuts in), whereas Leaf drivers will maintain a reserve, say, never routinely using the last 20-30%.  So Volt drivers talk about 'usable EV range' being only like 50% higher for the Leaf.  Seems true.
--I gather the Volt EV range meter has built in capacity/SOC reserves, since maximum EV range is not crucial to sales/use, so as the battery ages, the capacity/EV range does not appear to drop at all.  In contrast the Leaf range estimator will allow you to watch the (slow) degradation of your battery with the life of the vehicle.  The leaf fora are full of 'my 3 month old Leaf just lost a bar of battery capacity, but my friends 1 year old Leaf still has 12 bars, wah!'.  Seems like a psychological, rather than engineering issue, but could be significant for many drivers.  Volt drivers seem convinced by this that their batteries are much more durable/long-lived...but I am skeptical.  The chemistry is identical.
--Volt drivers rack up slightly more EV miles/yr than Leaf drivers....I suspect this is due to different needs...folks that need to drive more buy Volts, folks that are looking for an urban runabout buy Leafs.

Bottom line:
--the vehicles fill different niches of the EV market, and don't obviously compete for buyers.  Teslas are IMO a third, distinct niche.
--both vehicles had glitches on roll out 3 years ago, Volts had some fires after tests, Leafs had some battery warranty claims in Arizona heat.
--after working out the early kinks, sales of *both* vehicles are showing robust growth to ~25k units in the US during 2013, more expected in 2014.
--the Volt got off to an early head start sales-wise, the Leaf is currently ahead on monthly figures.  I see a lot more Volts on the road....I suspect that Leafs are more unevenly distributed, e.g. are popular in some metros in CA, Atlanta, not so much in the Snow Belt, and spend less time on the freeway (the only place you really 'see' other cars).


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## Seasoned Oak (May 14, 2014)

I think the spark is more in line as competition for the leaf than the volt. Not sure how the 2 stack up against each other except for the sparks quick charge capability.


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## velvetfoot (May 14, 2014)

How does the Prius plug in compare?


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## begreen (May 14, 2014)

Good summary woodgeek.  I would add that the Volt is a more upscale car with nicer interior fittings. We tried all the electric cars and plugin hybrids we could and the Leaf was our second choice. But that would have meant having a backup car for trips.  The Ford Focus electric was pretty nice too, but the battery hogs interior space.

In plugin hybrids we took a lesson from the 2006 Prius which was reliable and economical, but not the most ideal car for trip driving. It wanders on the fwy, tar strips and passing trucks are always noticeable, the steering is really dead and the seats were uncomfortable. They have improved gas mileage and the seats a bit, but the car still is no handling giant. And I can't stand the centered instrument pod. The measly EV range for the PIP was not worth it. The Camry hybrid was much nicer, but the back seat doesn't fold down. We actually liked the Honda Civic Hybrid a lot, but again, no fold down back seat. The Ford CMax Energi was not too bad a car, rear seats were not the best, but the huge battery pack in the back was a deal killer. Ford needs to make electric cars from the ground up so that the battery pack is not taking from the passenger and load space.


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## woodgeek (May 14, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> How does the Prius plug in compare?



The plug in Prius, or PiP in EV lingo, is a weird beastie.  It is a regular prius with an upgraded battery and an onboard charger for grid power.

In 'EV mode' it only has a 11 mi range, and a 62 mph max speed.   Basically, if you keep it plugged in, it will run as an EV on short, non-freeway errands, but you will burn gas on any longer or freeway trips.  Basically, the plug-in gives you a boost to the gas mileage, but doesn't really qualify as a useable EV per se.

http://wallstcheatsheet.com/automob...ta-prius-plug-in-how-do-they-stack-up.html/3/


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## woodgeek (May 14, 2014)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I think the spark is more in line as competition for the leaf than the volt. Not sure how the 2 stack up against each other except for the sparks quick charge capability.



Yar.  In the last 12 mos, GM sold about  *1000* Spark EVs.  And they are only for sale in a couple limited markets in a couple states.  Think beta testers.

My Leaf can charge 0 to 80% at one of 500 quickcharge stations in the US in 20-30 minutes.  Is the spark faster?

Other than the Volt, Leaf and Tesla Model S, there are many different EVs out there, but none are really moving in volume in the US....think hundreds or thousands total.  For both the Volt and LEAF there are ~50,000 units on the road today in the US....estimates for the Model S are all over the place, but are probably close to the same figure.  And all three are plausibly on an exponential growth curve with planned major improvements in the pipeline.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news...c-car-sales-for-2013-almost-double-last-years
http://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/


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## GaryGary (May 14, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> So, took a longer look at the Volt, and read a bit of Leaf bashing on Volt fora, and a few things emerge...
> 
> some obvious....
> --Most people who buy the Leaf or the Volt are happy with their purchase.
> ...



Hi,
One thing I'd point out on the Prius is that if you have a high percentage of long highway drives, it does better than either the Volt or the Leaf.  The Volt "only" gets 37 mpg highway on gasoline vs 48 for the Prius (plugin or regular), and the Leaf is not intended for the long highway drive role.

3/4's or our driving is long highway drives.  I've not found anything other than a railroad (if we had access to one) that will equal the Prius on energy cost or carbon emissions for that driving mix.  We are on our 2nd one and find it to be a very comfortable highway cruiser.

As you say, different vehicles work out best for different niches.


Comparison of a few random vehicles.
The 52.6 mpg is what we got on our last 2270 mile trip (EPA is 48 hwy)

Vehiclempgpax mpg
Prius                         52.6           105.3   (two adults with no credit for carrying the dog)
Ford Expedition        18               36       (two adults)
airplane                    0.43            41.7     (737 next gen with 97 pax onboard -- gasoline equiv)
train                                             230      (avg of several -- gasoline equiv)   
motor cycle               60               60        (1 pax Suzuki GS500)
Queen Mary    0.00753               15        (with 2000 passenger onboard -- gasoline equivalent)

NOTE: I can't get the table above to format right for the forum, but its at the very bottom of this page: http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Vehicles/ourprius.htm


An interesting page on efficiency of different types of vehicles:
http://www.builditsolar.com/References/EfficiencyTransport/strickland.htm



Gary


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## isipwater (May 14, 2014)

Nice Leaf woodgeek.  It sounds like the Leaf fits your driving needs perfectly.  I can't wait to get my first EV.  I have not had the pleasure of driving a Volt or Leaf but I did get a chance to test drive a Tesla S about 9 months ago.  The Tesla far exceeded all of my expectations.  I think the more people get behind the wheels of EV's, the more people will realize how wonderful they are to drive, as compared to ICE's.

My current commute is 60 miles round trip on backroads.  I also live in Massachusetts, with quite cold winters.  I wish the Leaf had a little more range and I think I would be sold.  As for now, I have a 3rd gen Prius and between winter and summer, am averaging 60 mpg.  The Prius really likes the slower speeds of back roads as compared to faster highway speeds.

Thanks for sharing.  Keep us updated!!


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## woodgeek (May 15, 2014)

Agreed.  Our new 2013 Leaf tells us it can do 84-86 miles on a 100% SOC battery, and off the freeway I believe it.  So the leaf would work for your roundtrip commute, when new, in warm weather.  Or if your work installed a charger (even the 120V L1 charger would add 25 miles in 6 hours).  

But I agree that that is too many ifs at this point.

The gen 2 leaf (with greater range TBD) is slated fro MY 2016, due out sometime in 2015.  Unless the development schedule slips.

In the meantime it sounds like the Prius is a great option for you (and Gary).


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## begreen (May 15, 2014)

I'll say. 60 mpg average for winter/summer is awesome. With gen 2 we were more like 46 mpg average which isn't bad. This was probably due to many shorter trips and a lot of up and down hills.


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## sloeffle (May 15, 2014)

isipwater said:


> My current commute is 60 miles round trip on backroads.  I also live in Massachusetts, with quite cold winters.  I wish the Leaf had a little more range and I think I would be sold.  As for now, I have a 3rd gen Prius and between winter and summer, am averaging 60 mpg.  The Prius really likes the slower speeds of back roads as compared to faster highway speeds.



I commute around 60 miles a day also but it is 90% highway driving. I usually average around 70MPH for most of my commute. What kind of MPG do you see generally see out of the Prius at those speeds ?

Scott


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## woodgeek (May 15, 2014)

Recent article about avoiding 'stale gas' in the Volt:  

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/11/a...NextInCollection&region=Footer&pgtype=article

That's how you know you are not using very much!


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## isipwater (May 15, 2014)

sloeffle said:


> I commute around 60 miles a day also but it is 90% highway driving. I usually average around 70MPH for most of my commute. What kind of MPG do you see generally see out of the Prius at those speeds ?
> 
> Scott


My wife and I each have a 3rd generation 2010 prius.

Result vary depending on driver.  I am more careful with the gas pedal and go slower than her, so my milage is usually better.

At 70mph, I would expect for my prius to get about 50-55 mpg.  Better in the warm weather and worse in the winter.

I can go 10k miles between oil changes.

My brake pads rarely get used since I almost always am using the regenerative breaking. One of our priuses is almost at 90k miles with original pads, with plenty of wear left on them.

The other thing I like about the 3rd gen prius is that it does not have a timing belt, so no need for that costly repair job.

Of course, with EV's, there are no timing belts and even better no oil changes.


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## GaryGary (May 15, 2014)

isipwater said:


> My wife and I each have a 3rd generation 2010 prius.
> 
> Result vary depending on driver.  I am more careful with the gas pedal and go slower than her, so my milage is usually better.
> 
> ...




I'm getting very similar mpg on our Prius in highway driving and cruise around 70 mph -- usually in the range 50 to 53 mpg.

Have not replaced any brakes pad on two prius.

Gary


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## midwestcoast (May 15, 2014)

sloeffle said:


> I commute around 60 miles a day also but it is 90% highway driving. I usually average around 70MPH for most of my commute. What kind of MPG do you see generally see out of the Prius at those speeds ?
> 
> Scott


My commute was a bit longer than that, at similar speeds (if the d@%*#d traffic would allow) for a couple years & with our 2006 Prius I averaged just over 50 mpg.  Tires ~5psi overinflated, stingy on the heat & AC, grill block in winter but no other hyper-miling antics.


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## begreen (May 15, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> Recent article about avoiding 'stale gas' in the Volt:
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/11/a...NextInCollection&region=Footer&pgtype=article
> 
> That's how you know you are not using very much!


Several of the folks quoted are enthusiastic geeks or hypermilers. They will do anything to eek out another mile.  We drive the car normally, turning on the heat whenever we want heat. The responsiveness and good handling of the Volt can lead to a bit of a lead foot because it's fun and on electric. That hurts range, but if the range is still within your normal day's driving, c'est la vie!


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## sloeffle (May 16, 2014)

Thanks for the info about the Prius. I am not in the market yet ( <2 - 3 years ) for another vehicle. My wife and I probably easily spend around 300$ a month in gas between the two of us. I unfortunately do not see the price of gas or diesel going down so our next vehicle will probably be some type of EV or hybrid.

woodgeek's cost numbers:



woodgeek said:


> Yup. At $0.12/kWh (the national average), the fuel cost per mile is roughly 25% that of gasoline at 22mpg. I think spouse is actually getting 3.5 mi/kWh.



are big eye opener on how much money we could be saving on gasoline.


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## Where2 (May 16, 2014)

sloeffle said:


> My wife and I probably easily spend around 300$ a month in gas between the two of us.
> 
> woodgeek's cost numbers are big eye opener on how much money we could be saving on gasoline.


My wife and I recognized the size of our fuel expenses in 2006 when she was putting 18k-20k/yr on a vehicle that got 17mpg (at best). When the opportunity arose to put her in something that got 46mpg, the fuel savings literally helped make the car payments. When the payments went away, the fuel savings continued... I have found other things to do with the money I was spending at the filling station when the payments ended.


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## AK13 (May 16, 2014)

sloeffle said:


> I commute around 60 miles a day also but it is 90% highway driving. I usually average around 70MPH for most of my commute. What kind of MPG do you see generally see out of the Prius at those speeds ?
> 
> Scott



That is an ideal commute for a VW TDI. Which is a heck of a lot more car IMHO. If a car is a box that takes you from place to place then there is nothing wrong with a Prius. If you enjoy the experience of driving a car AND want impressive fuel mileage then go test drive a TDI. Yes, I am probably biased. Yes, I love torque.


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## maple1 (May 16, 2014)

Sorry if posted already - what's the MSRP on the Leaf?

We got our Civic new in 2006. It now has around 360,000kms on it. Gets 45mpg(CDN), has had the front brakes done once. Just have to keep it in tires & oil changes. I'd be hard pressed to not get another one when it comes time to replace this one. I would love to be able to electrically power all those 360,000 kms, but with long trips & a daily 100km commute, it's just not in the cards. And they're all over the place here for less than $10k, for a 3 or 4 year old one with less than 100k kms on them.


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## velvetfoot (May 16, 2014)

isipwater said:


> The other thing I like about the 3rd gen prius is that it does not have a timing belt, so no need for that costly repair job.


That's what I didn't like about my TDI.  Since then, my MINI had a chain and so does the current Accent.  Not happy with Accent's mileage (auto-impulse buy).  Will go for max. mileage next time, but need distance driver too.  Was surprised that the dollars/mile, or whatever it was, for the electrics was that far off from a high mileage gasser.


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## woodgeek (May 16, 2014)

maple1 said:


> Sorry if posted already - what's the MSRP on the Leaf?



We got the base 'S trim' 2013 leaf that is $28,800 MSRP. We got the 'charger package', which prob add $1000-1500, call it $30k.  Less the $7500 fed tax rebate, it could be yours for $22,500.  The low lease price I got reflects the $7500 rebate going to the dealer/Nissan.


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## woodgeek (May 16, 2014)

Just had a realization.....we test drove the 2014 MY Leaf, and the rear cargo space was amazing....basically went to the ground.  We got the 2013 MY in the color we wanted with the charger package (6kW versus 3 kW AND Chademo quickcharge port) for the same quote.

Turns out it does not have the same cargo space.....more like a conventional hatchback.

In my reading around, the 2012 MY and before had even less rear cargo, they moved the charger to the front under the hood in MY 2013+.

IOW, every year, they are moving stuff out of the rear cargo area to grow that space.

What do you think they are going to do with that extra several cu ft of space?  ...I'm thinking more battery volume contiguous with the exiting battery (under rear seat)!  If they want to double the range for MY 2016, they will prob need a little more volume in addition to better chemistry.


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## Slow1 (May 16, 2014)

The good folks from Nissan Leaf marketing dept stopped by my company's cafeteria today.  They had a 'deal' marketed as a base 13MY for $208/mo with no initial payment required (3 year lease, 12K miles/year).  Seems like a decent deal for the Leaf.  The 14MY base is same deal but $227/mo.

What I'm trying hard to get a fair estimate is how much the maintenance difference is between the Leaf and say my Hyundai Accent.  Oil changes are easy - I can say 3K miles/change and then put a $/change ($30-40?).  So, what other things will be reduced/removed?  I figure tires and wipers are going to be the same so basically a wash there...  Thoughts?


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## sloeffle (May 16, 2014)

Where2 said:


> My wife and I recognized the size of our fuel expenses in 2006 when she was putting 18k-20k/yr on a vehicle that got 17mpg (at best). When the opportunity arose to put her in something that got 46mpg, the fuel savings literally helped make the car payments. When the payments went away, the fuel savings continued... I have found other things to do with the money I was spending at the filling station when the payments ended.



Both of the vehicles we have get around 30MPG. My CR-V is AWD which is nice in the winter but uses a little more gas. I have already made my mind up that the next vehicle will need to get >40MPG highway.



AK13 said:


> That is an ideal commute for a VW TDI. Which is a heck of a lot more car IMHO. If a car is a box that takes you from place to place then there is nothing wrong with a Prius. If you enjoy the experience of driving a car AND want impressive fuel mileage then go test drive a TDI. Yes, I am probably biased. Yes, I love torque.



I owned a Volkswagen ( Rabbit Diesel ) about 20 years ago and had a lot of problems with it. But I have heard that the VW Group has come along way on addressing their quality issues. It will be on my list for sure. 

We just sold a Corolla with 187k and never touched a thing on it. That car spoiled us with its reliability.


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## woodgeek (May 16, 2014)

Slow1 said:


> The good folks from Nissan Leaf marketing dept stopped by my company's cafeteria today.  They had a 'deal' marketed as a base 13MY for $208/mo with no initial payment required (3 year lease, 12K miles/year).  Seems like a decent deal for the Leaf.  The 14MY base is same deal but $227/mo.
> 
> What I'm trying hard to get a fair estimate is how much the maintenance difference is between the Leaf and say my Hyundai Accent.  Oil changes are easy - I can say 3K miles/change and then put a $/change ($30-40?).  So, what other things will be reduced/removed?  I figure tires and wipers are going to be the same so basically a wash there...  Thoughts?



I'm about $3K more out of pocket than that deal, but I wanted the charger package, which is more than half of that difference.  Still sounds like a good deal.

Re maintenance...all the stuff it doesn't have, transmission, belts, muffler, etc, prob not a big issue in first 36k miles anyway.  As with the Prii above, the brake wear is prob lower because of the regen braking.

I think Nissan currently has 3 years free roadside assistance, and they are talking about adding in free charging at all the existing L2 charging locations (~15000 nationwide).


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## Slow1 (May 16, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> I'm about $3K more out of pocket than that deal, but I wanted the charger package, which is more than half of that difference.  Still sounds like a good deal.
> 
> Re maintenance...all the stuff it doesn't have, transmission, belts, muffler, etc, prob not a big issue in first 36k miles anyway.  As with the Prii above, the brake wear is prob lower because of the regen braking.
> 
> I think Nissan currently has 3 years free roadside assistance, and they are talking about adding in free charging at all the existing L2 charging locations (~15000 nationwide).



Good point on the 3 year timeframe on maintenance... I'm about 110K miles and 5+ years into my Hyundai so maintenance is a 'normal' thing for us, of course now that we're past 100K schedules it will be good for a while I suppose.

So, basically the oil changes, maybe less on the brakes. 

I don't expect to use any away from home chargers much if at all.  I do have to figure in the cost of a home charger (I don't think I'd want to charge at 110v/12a as from what I read it is actually considerably less efficient as well as just slow).  Not sure about the 'chargers' in the cars - seems there are different levels, but it comes with level2 which is all I'd be using at home anyway?


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## BrotherBart (May 16, 2014)

What happens in these high mileage electric wonders when you have to turn on the heater or the AC when driving? Has to knock a big hole in the mileage per charge. We only have two seasons, hot/humid and cold.


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## woodgeek (May 16, 2014)

Slow1 said:


> I don't expect to use any away from home chargers much if at all.  I do have to figure in the cost of a home charger (I don't think I'd want to charge at 110v/12a as from what I read it is actually considerably less efficient as well as just slow).  Not sure about the 'chargers' in the cars - seems there are different levels, but it comes with level2 which is all I'd be using at home anyway?



I don't plan to use much public charging either....unless they build out the L2 and L3 network along I-95 during my lease.

The onboard charger runs on 240VAC from an EVSE (the wall mount unit with the funny plug).  The base 'S' model (and older models) has a ~3 kW onboard charger, requiring 8 hours to charge from 0-100% at home or any public L2 charger.  The higher-end trims, or the S plus charger package has a 6 kW charger, so I can charge 0-100% in ~4 hours at home or public L2 chargers.  As above, the cheapest 6 kW compatible EVSE I found runs $650 for the hardware, I did the install myself.  You would need 2 open slots (for a 240 circuit) in your breaker box.


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## woodgeek (May 16, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> What happens in these high mileage electric wonders when you have to turn on the heater or the AC when driving? Has to knock a big hole in the mileage per charge. We only have two seasons, hot/humid and cold.



AC pulls down the range some (haven't used it much yet), the cabin heater a LOT.  So the Leafs all come with heated seats front and rear, and heated steering wheel, standard.

Based on the Leaf forum, I expect my range to drop from 80+ miles to ~60 miles in below freezing weather (at 50 mph).  This is still almost double my wife's 32 mi round-trip commute.  

In the dead of winter, I can drive the Leaf to my train station, and we will still use the nominal 12k miles/year on the lease during the rest of the year.


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## begreen (May 16, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> What happens in these high mileage electric wonders when you have to turn on the heater or the AC when driving? Has to knock a big hole in the mileage per charge. We only have two seasons, hot/humid and cold.



Battery output drops noticeably in colder temps. Cold weather in general will knock down range, even without the heat on. We use the heat and heated seats and our range drops from 40 to about 26 miles in the winter. That's still within our normal driving range, so not a deal killer for us. We haven't run the AC much, but reports are that the hit is less and in the warm weather the battery is at full output. The Volt AC has two modes, ECO and Comfort. Usually one would use Comfort to cool the cabin then switch to ECO to keep it there. Folks in Texas and Florida say it works well for them and they are still seeing +40 mile electric range in 100 deg temps.


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## CaptSpiff (May 17, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> I'm about $3K more out of pocket than that deal, but I wanted the charger package, which is more than half of that difference.  Still sounds like a good deal.


Hi WoodGeek,
I'm a bit confused about the charging system "option". 
Does the Car come with an onboard charger standard, so I can use any 120V 15a outlet or extension cord?
Is this considered Level 1?
What is the typical recharge rate (kw per hour) at 120v?

Does the optional Level 2 charger live on the car or at your home?
If Level 2 is onboard, what is installed at your home?
What is the typical recharge rate at 240v (Level 2?) ?

Thanks


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## woodgeek (May 17, 2014)

I can see how you were confused.

Many/most EVs and PHEVs come with an SAE J1722 female outlet, behind a little door, which accepts AC current from a corresponding J1722 male plug.  The unit that the plug is attached to is called an Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment (EVSE) and it can be connected to the grid by a 120V standard plug, a 240V plug of some type, or hardwiring.  These EVSEs come in different maximum power outputs, but the EV and EVSE 'talk to each other' so the car only 'takes' what the EVSE can deliver, rather than blowing a breaker if the current demand on the EV is greater than the max allowed by the EVSE.

Not unlike a cell phone....some 'chargers' will charge your phone faster than others, but they will all work.

The Leaf comes with a completely separate 'brick' with 2 cords, in a little case, with a 120V plug on one end, and a J1722 plug on the other.   The max power is 1.3 kW to avoid overloading a typical 120V outlet.  This is called 'Level 1', L1 and would come in handy if you were visiting grandma overnight, and she was at the limit of your one-way range (you could recharge overnight).  If you never used the whole range in a day, it could be your only charger.

Folks in more of a hurry, can buy a beefer EVSE, called a Level 2, 'L2', that still has a J1722 plug, but runs on a 240V circuit.  These come in different sizes, you would get the one that is big enough to feed the charger (located within the car, that turns AC into DC for the battery) at the max rate it can accept.  For the Volt and older LEAFs that is 3.3 kW.  For newer LEAFs, you can get a 6.6 kW charger....charges in half the time, <4 hours with a suitable L2 EVSE (versus 20 hours with the L1 brick that comes with the car).

L3 QuickChargers are actually chargers, not EVSEs. They deliver high current DC. There are 2 standards (Tesla and Chademo) , neither uses the J1722 plug, and they can charge your car in 20 minutes or so.  But there are fewer than 1000 in the US.  Many EVs do not have L3 capability.


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## CaptSpiff (May 18, 2014)

OK, that's good info. So the LEAF comes with the 3.3Kw built in charger standard. But there is a 6.6Kw built in charger as an upgrade option.

Either charger will use the portable L1 EVSE cord/plug and automatically limit its draw to 1.3Kw (about 11 amps at 120v outlet). This will recharge the LEAF at about a 5 mi each hr.

Now if I had a 240v L2 EVSE cord/plug, the LEAF with a 3.3Kw charger would limit its draw to 3.3Kw (about 14amps at 240Vac). This will recharge the LEAF at about a 10 mi each hr.

And if I had a 240v L2 EVSE cord/plug, a LEAF with a 6.6Kw charger would limit its draw to 6.6Kw (about 28amps at 240Vac). This would recharge the LEAF at about 20 mi each hr.

Thanks for those talking points. I've been thinking about about promoting my employer to put in some charging stations and this helps me understand the picture better.

Looks to me like a 20 or 30 mile commute could be easily handled by even a L1 plug-in.


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## woodgeek (May 18, 2014)

Precisely.

I would say the older Leafs were 3.3 kW standard.  Now only the cheapest one, the 'S trim' has that, the other two trims have a 6.6 kW charger standard.  Looking at sales figures, <20% of leafs sold in 2013 and later were the S model, and some of those (like mine) may have had the upgraded charger.  Factor in higher sales in the last year, and you can figure most Leafs on the road have a 6.6 kW charger.

I figure Nissan is taking an evolutionary approach in advance of a significant increase in battery size, which has been fixed at 24 kWh since launch >3 years ago. They are making the interior space for the battery bigger, and growing the charger (the bigger 6.6 kW charger will still need 8 hours to charge a hypothetical 48 kWh pack, a 3.3 kW EVSE would take 16 hours, the L1 brick 40!).  Given the high (but falling) cost of Li-ion batteries, the bigger pack would've been prohibitive in MY 2011, but will hopefully be ok for the 'Gen 2 Leaf' in MY 2016.


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## woodgeek (May 18, 2014)

Had some friends in from the City last night, and they pointed out that Philly lets you designate an on street parking space in front of your house 'EV reserved' if you install an EVSE there....

http://www.phillylicensedelectrician.com/electric-vehicle-gets-reserved-parking/

Reading the article, you can padlock or switch the EVSE off, i.e. limit it to your personal use, so others can't use it.  Other EVs could still legally park in your spot, but this is one way to get 'almost private' parking in the city.  

They were talking about getting a cheap EV just for the parking.


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## woodgeek (May 18, 2014)

*I did my first long drive yesterday*, 36 miles round trip into Philly, mostly highway, about half in stop and go traffic, some AC.  I used '5 of 12' bars, less than half of total range.  Or if you figure the last 2 bars are for reserve (they're colored red on the dash), half of my non-reserve 10 bars of range.  The battery warranty is that you will have at least '9 bars' of capacity after 8 years, or 7 bars less reserve.  That is still aok for a 50 mile round trip commute (in good weather).

I can def corroborate BG's lead-foot effect.  I was just following traffic, and had **no idea** I was going close to 80 when passing someone at one point.  Felt like, I dunno, 55 or less.  No obvious power restrictions when cruising or passing.  Instant linear response to accelerator is also a lot of fun (as opposed to delay for throttle up, auto tran shifting, etc).

I am sure gear heads that like sports cars would consider it a yawner (10 sec 0-60), but compared to the old family cars I am used to, its both responsive and sporty.

Not a golf cart.


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## Slow1 (May 18, 2014)

CaptSpiff said:


> OK, that's good info. So the LEAF comes with the 3.3Kw built in charger standard. But there is a 6.6Kw built in charger as an upgrade option.
> 
> Either charger will use the portable L1 EVSE cord/plug and automatically limit its draw to 1.3Kw (about 11 amps at 120v outlet). This will recharge the LEAF at about a 5 mi each hr.
> 
> ...



I read somewhere that the charging times are not really so linear - i.e. as you go from L1 to L2 you actually get slightly more than 2x the charge time due to what is basically a 'fixed' power consumption in the charging circuit.  Anyone know about this?  The implication for home use being that while you COULD perhaps use the L1 as your primary charger, if you did so, you would actually draw more power to charge x miles with the L1 than you would for the L2.


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## woodgeek (May 18, 2014)

My own (slightly limited) experience and reading of the EV forums would suggest otherwise (at least for the LEAF), or that that info is outdated.

a few tidbits:
--lots of folks just use the L1 charger exclusively without a problem.  Depends on your needs.
--I think the charge is roughly 'constant current' for L1 and L2 chargers.  My Efergy home energy monitor shows the leaf is pulling 6.6 kW, its rated draw, up to the end, where the car reports a 86 mile range, and 12 out of 12 bars, or 100% SOC.
--L3 chargers are programmed to quit at 80% SOC to avoid overcharge damage to the battery.  They are still supposedly 'hard on' the battery, not for everyday use.
--Until recently (2013 MY), EVSEs were $2k, and all chargers were 3.3 kW. With a 3.3 kW charger (or an undersized L2 EVSE) you would see a less dramatic improvement (3.3kW/1.3kW = 2.5x faster).  Would you pay $2k for a 2.5X speed up or would you gripe?
--I paid $650 for a 5X speed increase. For me, this allows (i) two 'max range' drives in a day (with a 4 hour home charge in the middle) rather than one, or (ii) if I deplete the car and come home at 11PM, I have a fully charged car in the morning rather than a less than half charged one (at L1 rates).
--Even after the car is fully charged, it continues to 'blink' the EVSE so it looks like it is still charging for another hour or more, but the efergy shows very low draw.  According to EV forums, the Leaf is trickle charging the accessory battery during this time...
--Yes, the Leaf has a regular car battery in addition to the Li 'traction battery'.  I suppose you can listen to the radio and charge your phone while you are waiting for roadside assistance after bottoming out your traction battery.    Joking aside, when your phone runs out of juice it crashes or goes dead.  When the traction battery is 'done', the car's systems are still 'live', so the little voice can tell you that you are out of charge, and display a 'turtle' on the dash (no joke).  Hopefully I will never see the 'turtle of doom'.


----------



## begreen (May 18, 2014)

I'd rather see a turtle of doom than a BSOD in a car. And yes, since getting the Volt I have been more of a "lead foot". With the Prius you were always pulse and glide driving to try and eek a mile or so out of the battery. With the Volt as long as your trip is well within battery range, you just silently drive. Add to that a very low center of gravity, a good suspension and a "sport" mode for extra juice to the traction motor and things can get lively, in a good way. I think Chevy and others are missing the mark with their advertising. Driving enjoyment should be listed as one of the top features.


----------



## Slow1 (Jun 24, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> I'm about $3K more out of pocket than that deal, but I wanted the charger package, which is more than half of that difference.  Still sounds like a good deal.
> 
> Re maintenance...all the stuff it doesn't have, transmission, belts, muffler, etc, prob not a big issue in first 36k miles anyway.  As with the Prii above, the brake wear is prob lower because of the regen braking.
> 
> I think Nissan currently has 3 years free roadside assistance, and they are talking about adding in free charging at all the existing L2 charging locations (~15000 nationwide).



Well, I ended up buying one (see my other thread I started).  What threw me over is that Nissan had/has a $3500 incentive to use their financing, then MA came out with an additional $2500 rebate so that knocked $6K off the price compared to what I was looking at.  I ended up buying rather than leasing as the net amount was worth it, walked out with the 2013-S+ Charger package (Sounds like what you got) for a very comfortable price.

Sent the wife off on a 74 mile drive the next day... she had some anxiety when it complained about needing to charge, but she made it!


----------



## mass_burner (Jun 24, 2014)

Jags said:


> Madzda5 is a gas guzzler??  Who knew.



everything is relative, my '69 Buick gets about 13-16 MPG.


----------



## mass_burner (Jun 24, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> Yup.  At $0.12/kWh (the national average), the fuel cost per mile is roughly *25%* that of gasoline at 22mpg.  I think spouse is actually getting 3.5 mi/kWh.
> 
> The net $5000 savings over 36k miles pays about half of the lease cost.  When I estimated repair, maintenance and depreciation on the vehicles it replaced, that was another few thou.  I think I am out of pocket for $60/mo on the lease.
> 
> In PA, I was able to buy 100% wind power for $0.124/kWh on a 2 year contract (current rates are slightly higher), so I have zero carbon emissions per mile at the same time.



but in my case i'm getting 50


AK13 said:


> That is an ideal commute for a VW TDI. Which is a heck of a lot more car IMHO. If a car is a box that takes you from place to place then there is nothing wrong with a Prius. If you enjoy the experience of driving a car AND want impressive fuel mileage then go test drive a TDI. Yes, I am probably biased. Yes, I love torque.



i used to do 45 miles each way all highway at a past job, and got from 42-45 mpg in my '04 prius. Now I drive city and highway about 23 miles each way and average 48-51 mpg.


----------



## mass_burner (Jun 24, 2014)

you know, this EV mileage limitation might be the best reason to buy, "would love to pickup broccoli but i only have 16 miles left".


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## woodgeek (Jun 25, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> but in my case i'm getting 50
> 
> i used to do 45 miles each way all highway at a past job, and got from 42-45 mpg in my '04 prius. Now I drive city and highway about 23 miles each way and average 48-51 mpg.



Yeah, you might only see a 50% reduction in energy cost per mile by going EV.  
Of course, you might also be a weird EV hypermiler who can get 120 miles out of the Leaf.


----------



## woodgeek (Jun 25, 2014)

Slow1 said:


> Well, I ended up buying one (see my other thread I started).  What threw me over is that Nissan had/has a $3500 incentive to use their financing, then MA came out with an additional $2500 rebate so that knocked $6K off the price compared to what I was looking at.  I ended up buying rather than leasing as the net amount was worth it, walked out with the 2013-S+ Charger package (Sounds like what you got) for a very comfortable price.
> 
> Sent the wife off on a 74 mile drive the next day... she had some anxiety when it complained about needing to charge, but she made it!



Welcome to the club!

Sounds like a great set of incentives that brought the price down into the teens.  A very fun/comfy new car for that kind of cost.

The wife and I are having a lot of fun with our Leaf, now well north of 1000 miles.  We have invented a whole new lingo....when we see a Prius, we say: "Oooh look! a gas guzzler!"  (when we see any other ICE car we go "Ooh look! Its a gas-wagon monstrosity!")


----------



## jebatty (Jun 25, 2014)

I love to see the passion for EV.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jun 25, 2014)

begreen said:


> I think Chevy and others are missing the mark with their advertising. Driving enjoyment should be listed as one of the top features.


It seems like GM is barely advertising the volt at all. Could be the margins are too thin to spend a lot of money on ads. Probably pays better to advertise the Escalade and the Silverado,sadly.


----------



## woodgeek (Jun 25, 2014)

In contrast Nissan seems to be pouring incentive cash to move the Leaf (but also not advertising much, except with viral videos).

I think every Leaf the sell (perhaps at a loss) sells a few more by word of mouth.  One of my neighbors is close to pulling the trigger.  They have already sunk billions in engineering, probably makes sense to pass for now on profit to grow volumes/acceptance in advance of the Leaf Gen 2 in 18 mos (with 2x the range).


----------



## semipro (Jun 25, 2014)

begreen said:


> . Driving enjoyment should be listed as one of the top features.


As a gearhead who grew up in adoration of infernal combustion engines and the beautiful noise they make I find now that I get more of a tingle down my spine when I hear the electric whine/growl of an electrically powered vehicle along with the constant push back into the seat I've only experienced otherwise during takeoff in a jet plane.


----------



## mass_burner (Jun 25, 2014)

semipro said:


> As a gearhead who grew up in adoration of infernal combustion engines and the beautiful noise they make I find now that I get more of a tingle down my spine when I hear the electric whine/growl of an electrically powered vehicle along with the constant push back into the seat I've only experienced otherwise during takeoff in a jet plane.



in 50 years "old timers" will sound just like this as the kids are flying silently in their hover crafts.


----------



## begreen (Jun 25, 2014)

Can't wait til they get rid of tires on vehicles. That will save a whole lot of petroleum.


----------



## DBoon (Jun 25, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> in 50 years "old timers" will sound just like this as the kids are flying silently in their hover crafts.



When I was a kid, I was told we would all have hovercrafts by now...


----------



## semipro (Jun 26, 2014)

I was hoping for a transporter by then, you know beam me to Boston Scotty....

Seriously, the more I think about it though the more I think we should move toward electricity as our standard for conveyance of energy.  
Its seems we waste a huge amount of money/resources/safety building and maintaining the infrastructure needed to move chemical energy sources around (e.g., heating oil, motor fuel, etc.).  
IMO we'd be better off using those fuels along with renewable sources, nuclear, etc. at centralized power generation facilities.  
We should improve our electrical grid and invest in storage technology and methods for getting electrical power to vehicles, trains, trucks, etc. along with buildings and factories.


----------



## Slow1 (Jun 26, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> Welcome to the club!
> 
> The wife and I are having a lot of fun with our Leaf, now well north of 1000 miles.  We have invented a whole new lingo....when we see a Prius, we say: "Oooh look! a gas guzzler!"  (when we see any other ICE car we go "Ooh look! Its a gas-wagon monstrosity!")



I have to say I've enjoyed this car more so far this week than I recall with any other I have bought.  Then again, I'm generally more of a "meet the functional requirements" type on these things... never paid for extras if I could avoid it.

I think by the end of the week we'll have put close to 500 miles on it, not a bad first week but this will be unusual use, not the normal/average.

Kids are good at plugging/unplugging so I think that will fall into our routine, takes about as much time/effort as getting into the car does.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Jun 26, 2014)

Harley is now jumping into the fray with an electric bike. Of course it wont have their signature rumble harley is famous for but a cool whoosh like jet taking off sound. Not something im interested in anymore. I like a lot of framework around me as i age and become more fragile.


----------



## begreen (Jun 26, 2014)

semipro said:


> IMO we'd be better off using those fuels along with renewable sources, nuclear, etc. at centralized power generation facilities.
> We should improve our electrical grid and invest in storage technology and methods for getting electrical power to vehicles, trains, trucks, etc. along with buildings and factories.



It's starting to happen, in Europe.
http://cleantechnica.com/2014/05/24/100-dutch-electric-trains-run-renewable-energy-2018/


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## woodgeek (Jun 28, 2014)

Ah, Carma.  

Leaf is in the shop....wife was driving in Philly on Thursday, got rear-ended by a guy on a bicycle.  Guy was swerving to avoid another car, lost control and put shoulder and head through the rear window and caved in hatchback.  He appeared aok, with only minor cuts, and went to the ER for a checkout.

Repair estimate is $2500, with our $500 deductible.  Should be good as new in *10 days*, since the parts are all 'special order', coming from TN.

FYI, in my financial spreadsheet, I neglected that the insurance co would up our charge significantly relative to the beater it replaced.  

In hindsight, maybe justified.


----------



## begreen (Jun 28, 2014)

Seasoned Oak said:


> It seems like GM is barely advertising the volt at all. Could be the margins are too thin to spend a lot of money on ads. Probably pays better to advertise the Escalade and the Silverado,sadly.


Might just be a different demographic is being targeted. I have seen full page color ads for the Volt in some mags I read. Still, I think they should target a broader, younger audience. The Volt is really fun to drive and a pleasure to take on trips too.


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## Jags (Jun 29, 2014)

Let me get this straight....a guy on a bike did 2500 dollars damage to the rear of your vehicle?

True story...my other half backed my truck up the hood of an older Porsche.. The only way I could tell is where it wiped the dirt from the bottom of the bumper.  Porsche...different story.


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## woodgeek (Jun 29, 2014)

Apparently the bicycle was undamaged too.


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## Slow1 (Jun 30, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> Ah, Carma.
> 
> Repair estimate is $2500, with our $500 deductible.  Should be good as new in *10 days*, since the parts are all 'special order', coming from TN.
> 
> ...



If you have contact info for the guy that hit you I'd ask for at least the deductible from him.  My roommate in college hit a car (I think it was a toyota) from the side riding his bike - put his butt through the driver's window (scared the heck out of the driver I'm sure).  While it was fun to razz him about it, he was responsible for the damage and had to make good on it.

I was surprised that our insurance rate actually dropped a hair (like $60/yr) swapping the Hyundai for the Leaf.  I was braced for an increase on the assumption new car would be higher...


----------



## woodgeek (Jul 1, 2014)

I think the wife said +$600/yr on the insurance.


----------



## Slow1 (Jul 1, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> I think the wife said +$600/yr on the insurance.



Auto insurance costs are quite the topic.  While I understand much of the business "risk management' side of it, once you add in the regulatory and individual attitudes to the mix the complexity of it all becomes overwhelming rather quickly.  Understanding why the cost changes for one vehicle to the other certainly is not intuitive to me.  I get that some are 'safer' and some cost more to repair etc, but predicting which way it will go - that is the hard part.


----------



## isipwater (Jul 1, 2014)

Slow1 said:


> Well, I ended up buying one (see my other thread I started).  What threw me over is that Nissan had/has a $3500 incentive to use their financing, then MA came out with an additional $2500 rebate so that knocked $6K off the price compared to what I was looking at.  I ended up buying rather than leasing as the net amount was worth it, walked out with the 2013-S+ Charger package (Sounds like what you got) for a very comfortable price.
> 
> Sent the wife off on a 74 mile drive the next day... she had some anxiety when it complained about needing to charge, but she made it!


I began talking to a Nissan Dealer last week about a leaf.  I also live in MA and the final price I would be getting for the Leaf would be between 18-19K, after the $3500 incentive, $7500 fed tax credit, $2500 state rebate.  This price included all taxes and other dealer charges but did not include the upgraded charger.

What is your final price after all incentives and extra charges?


----------



## woodgeek (Jul 1, 2014)

isipwater said:


> I began talking to a Nissan Dealer last week about a leaf.  I also live in MA and the final price I would be getting for the Leaf would be between 18-19K, after the $3500 incentive, $7500 fed tax credit, $2500 state rebate.  This price included all taxes and other dealer charges but did not include the upgraded charger.
> 
> What is your final price after all incentives and extra charges?



Is your quote for the 2014 MY or 2013?  IIRC Slow, like me, got the 2013.


----------



## isipwater (Jul 1, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> Is your quote for the 2014 MY or 2013?  IIRC Slow, like me, got the 2013.


My quote was for a 2014 S


----------



## woodgeek (Jul 1, 2014)

My lease deal in PA, was not as good as yours in MA, but I got the 2013 S+charge for the same quote as the 2014 S.


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## mass_burner (Jul 2, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> My lease deal in PA, was not as good as yours in MA, but I got the 2013 S+charge for the same quote as the 2014 S.



woodgeek, what was your cash down, not including first payment. And monthly payment.


----------



## Slow1 (Jul 2, 2014)

isipwater said:


> I began talking to a Nissan Dealer last week about a leaf.  I also live in MA and the final price I would be getting for the Leaf would be between 18-19K, after the $3500 incentive, $7500 fed tax credit, $2500 state rebate.  This price included all taxes and other dealer charges but did not include the upgraded charger.
> 
> What is your final price after all incentives and extra charges?



Mine is a 2013 S + 6.6Kw charger & Backup camera.  My cost including tax,title,all incentives (Fed and State) came to just a few dollars short of 17K, I traded in my car for 3K bringing me down to $14K actual payment (but I consider the cost to be the $17 for comparison purposes).


----------



## woodgeek (Jul 2, 2014)

IIRC, I put down ~$2000 less my trade in value.  Monthly is I think $236 including ding and dent coverage.


----------



## mass_burner (Jul 2, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> IIRC, I put down ~$2000 less my trade in value.  Monthly is I think $236 including ding and dent coverage.



hmmm, dealer quoted me $4900 with a $198/mo on a 2014 mid-level, the one with the NAV. No trade in. I need to shop around more.


----------



## Slow1 (Jul 2, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> hmmm, dealer quoted me $4900 with a $198/mo on a 2014 mid-level, the one with the NAV. No trade in. I need to shop around more.



With the 2015's just around the corner, my guess is that you are likely to get the best deal on a 2013.  The differences between the 13 and 14 model years seem to be very small.  Just be sure to compare apples to apples (i.e. I think all 14 model year trims have the backup camera by default but the "S" trim level doesn't have it in 13).


----------



## mass_burner (Jul 2, 2014)

Slow1 said:


> With the 2015's just around the corner, my guess is that you are likely to get the best deal on a 2013.  The differences between the 13 and 14 model years seem to be very small.  Just be sure to compare apples to apples (i.e. I think all 14 model year trims have the backup camera by default but the "S" trim level doesn't have it in 13).



yea, i went looking for a 2013, but then they switch you to what they want to sell. I went along with it, only cause I wanted to test drive one. When I go back shopping I'll ask if they have a 2013 silver, if not, I'll turn around and walk out.


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## Slow1 (Jul 2, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> yea, i went looking for a 2013, but then they switch you to what they want to sell. I went along with it, only cause I wanted to test drive one. When I go back shopping I'll ask if they have a 2013 silver, if not, I'll turn around and walk out.



Then again, maybe wait for the 15's to be here - rumor has it they may have an option for 150 (epa) mile range... that would be very nice I imagine.


----------



## isipwater (Jul 2, 2014)

Slow1 said:


> Mine is a 2013 S + 6.6Kw charger & Backup camera.  My cost including tax,title,all incentives (Fed and State) came to just a few dollars short of 17K, I traded in my car for 3K bringing me down to $14K actual payment (but I consider the cost to be the $17 for comparison purposes).


Sounds like you got quite the deal. Good for you. Now I know what a good deal looks like when I see it.


----------



## woodgeek (Jul 2, 2014)

Slow1 said:


> Then again, maybe wait for the 15's to be here - rumor has it they may have an option for 150 (epa) mile range... that would be very nice I imagine.



My understanding was the Gen 2 Leaf was for Model Year 2016, first available late in 2015, more than year from now.  This corresponds to the 5 year cycle from the 2011 release.


----------



## woodgeek (Jul 2, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> hmmm, dealer quoted me $4900 with a $198/mo on a 2014 mid-level, the one with the NAV. No trade in. I need to shop around more.



I got three quotes....and the two I didn't take were >$2k higher on the 36 month cost of ownership.  The one I did pledged to honor the $2k down, $199/mo price in national advertising (for a stripped 2014 S, before taxes and fees).

The mid-levels are popular (the S trim is the least popular....like 20% of sales)  I was not interested in the Nav system, since my phone is fine for that.


----------



## Slow1 (Jul 2, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> The mid-levels are popular (the S trim is the least popular....like 20% of sales) I was not interested in the Nav system, since my phone is fine for that.



IF I expected to take long trips, the nav system would have some appeal; but my little garmin unit does fine there.  As I expect to use it for mostly local driving, I rarely feel the need to have a navigation system...  Now, the "carwings" program does have some appeal to me as this is how you can easily set it to pre-warm/cool before you leave etc.  Such a feature would certainly be nice to have, but the premium to get there didn't do it for me.




isipwater said:


> Sounds like you got quite the deal. Good for you. Now I know what a good deal looks like when I see it.



I'm sure this 'bargain' had a lot to do with the fact the dealer really wanted to sell.  I didn't go in picky - took the color (black) that he had on hand and was using for demo drives (110 miles on it, not much really).  Always good to have someone ready to sell rather than waiting in line to buy.  They did have one other on the offering to sell - it was a base Model S - no additional options etc, I could have come out a couple K lower, but I am glad that I got the 6.6Kw charger plus DC port on the car as eventually I expect they may have quite a bit more utility.


----------



## woodgeek (Jul 3, 2014)

Slow1 said:


> Now, the "carwings" program does have some appeal to me as this is how you can easily set it to pre-warm/cool before you leave etc.  Such a feature would certainly be nice to have, but the premium to get there didn't do it for me.



If you read the fine print, the 'carwings' system uses a low bandwidth data network that is getting shut down in a year or two.....and there is no planned replacement that I know of.  

At least we 'S' drivers didn't pay for that!


----------



## sloeffle (Jul 3, 2014)

You guys might of talked about this. What type of maintenance needs to be done on the car, if any ?

If they came out with out with a car that would give me 150 miles in range I would be sold due to the lower TCO vs a standard ( Prius ) hybrid.


----------



## Slow1 (Jul 3, 2014)

sloeffle said:


> You guys might of talked about this. What type of maintenance needs to be done on the car, if any ?
> 
> If they came out with out with a car that would give me 150 miles in range I would be sold due to the lower TCO vs a standard ( Prius ) hybrid.



The maintenance schedule is basically tire rotations and inspections of various parts.  The only interesting part really is that they have a change of brake fluid at like 15 or 30K miles which apparently is unusual (I'm no mechanic - I generally do whatever my mechanic recommends).

I do think that the maintenance will be lower.  On a related thought, I read recently about the cost of replacement batteries for the Leaf.  It appears the current cost to swap is around $5500, which if one gets 100K miles on it means you can add about $0.055/mile to the cost of operating the car.  So that still makes it (for me) about 33% less than gas.  I'm not suggesting 100K miles exhausts the value of the battery but it seems a reasonable "worst case" estimate.


----------



## woodgeek (Jul 5, 2014)

Leaf is back from the shop good as new, 6 days later.

We are all going on vacation for 3 weeks, so the leaf will be resting in our garage, having 1380 miles we put on it.  

Turns out the leaf has a bug/feature: while it recharges the 12V battery at the end of an EVSE charge cycle, it will not do so periodically while connected to the charger.

So, if you leave the car on the charger for >1 week, the car will first fully charge the 12V battery a few hours after you plug it in, and then pull the 12V battery down to dead with all the computer activity associated with the EVSE.

If instead you just park it unplugged (and turned off), the car will have very little drain on the 12V battery (like any other car), and will wake up weekly (they say), and top off the 12V battery from the traction battery.  Given the low self-discharge of Li-ion, and the large reserve of energy in the traction battery, the car should be good for many months of parked storage.  At least not plugged into an EVSE.


----------



## Slow1 (Jul 5, 2014)

Wow, that is pretty annoying and I didn't know it.  We plan to take a 3 1/2 week vacation later this year, will have to consider this.

Seems like a very simple software fix to me though, I wonder why this bug still exists?


----------



## begreen (Jul 5, 2014)

This is the case with many cars that have a large traction battery. The 12v power is used for accessories and the computer. If going away for a long time one option is to get a trickle charger like the Battery Tender and leave that connected to the 12v battery to keep it charged.


----------



## woodgeek (Jul 5, 2014)

Slow1 said:


> Wow, that is pretty annoying and I didn't know it.  We plan to take a 3 1/2 week vacation later this year, will have to consider this.
> 
> Seems like a very simple software fix to me though, I wonder why this bug still exists?



It seems that you simply have to NOT leave it on the EVSE when you leave....just park it, turn it off and lock it.  That is, parking at the airport for a while seems to be all clear.

I will let you know in 3 weeks.

The earlier models came over on a boat from Japan, and I am sure they didn't all have battery tenders.


----------



## begreen (Jul 5, 2014)

Here are some general guidelines that should be helpful. Two weeks is the recommended safe margin, but it probably has some fudge factor depending on the age and condition of the 12v battery. If you have an SL and the car is parked outside, the solar panel should keep the battery charged. Without the solar panel there is the risk of parasitic loads hammering down the 12v battery to a low level if over two weeks.
http://sfbayleafs.org/ev-resources/leaf-tips-tricks/how-to-store-your-leaf-when-going-on-vacation/
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=11209


----------



## mass_burner (Jul 6, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> It seems that you simply have to NOT leave it on the EVSE when you leave....just park it, turn it off and lock it.  That is, parking at the airport for a while seems to be all clear.
> 
> I will let you know in 3 weeks.
> 
> The earlier models came over on a boat from Japan, and I am sure they didn't all have battery tenders.


what about jumping? Does it have a special terminal under the hood like the Prius?


----------



## woodgeek (Jul 6, 2014)

Not sure about why I would need to jump it...if the 12V was dead and the onboard system was crashed, I imagine I would clamp on my 12V charger for a while, then reboot, then plug into the EVSE for a while.  Apparently when the 12V is dead, the keyless entry is defeated, and the hard key backup (hidden inside the fob) must be used.

The 12V battery does have a weird sensor on the neg terminal for current sensing (12V SOC), so inverters and chargers, etc, should go to chassis ground rather than battery ground and the pos terminal on the battery.  Don't know nothin about Prii.

I AM thinking of getting a 1500W sine inverter and a pair of clamp on cables for house backup, about $300.  Should be similar or better functionality compared my HF genny, i.e. I could run my HPWH (with a $30 120-240V step up transformer) or a window AC unit (which I do not own).  I could keep the genny for other contingencies or give the whole kit to a buddy.


----------



## mass_burner (Jul 7, 2014)

What if your not at home and your 12V is not holding a charge, but you need to give it enough juice to power the interface so you can start the car.


----------



## woodgeek (Jul 7, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> What if your not at home and your 12V is not holding a charge, but you need to give it enough juice to power the interface so you can start the car.



Indeed.  If I did not have a 12V battery charger, I would tie it to another vehicle with jumper cables to 'start' it.


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## woodgeek (Jul 28, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> It seems that you simply have to NOT leave it on the EVSE when you leave....just park it, turn it off and lock it.  That is, parking at the airport for a while seems to be all clear.
> 
> I will let you know in 3 weeks.
> 
> The earlier models came over on a boat from Japan, and I am sure they didn't all have battery tenders.



I'm home from vacation on Cape Cod.  We spotted a white leaf in Orlean/Brewster, and a blue one in Harwich, both multiple times.  We also saw a charcoal gray one in a stop in Mystic CT on the way home in our gaswagon.  I guess the wife and I 'missed' our Leaf.  

RE the battery issue....car started right up no problems.  A check of systems showed a decrease of traction battery SOC from 64% when we left to 54% when we returned 24 days later.  If we assume 10% SOC is 2.4 kWh, this is 100 Wh per day of loss, aka 4W standby power load by onboard systems, with the car unplugged and turned off.

The Leaf forum says that it cycles to recharge the 12V battery from the traction battery every 5 days. 0.3A x 5 days x 24 hours = 36 Ah, an iffy discharge for a lead acid.  I figure I got five 36Ah discharge cycles.  IF I was worried about it, I could have attached a tender, but I wanted the standby data for future parking at the airport.  Would be nice if Nissan engineering had made the recharge cycle be 2 days or so.


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## begreen (Jul 28, 2014)

Good news. Hope you had a great vacation. I spend a few fun summers in Orleans when I was a kid. It had nice beaches as soon as the ocean warmed up and the original Howard Johnsons.


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