# I don't think my P38 is burning properly



## ducker (Aug 21, 2008)

So I've done two test fires so far.
And both time experienced a very short flame when the stove starting operating properly (ie after I had manually started it and it started running on its own).  I'm seeing a very short, fast, flame at all but the highest setting - if I set the stove to 5/turbo then the flame starts to extend a bit out of the burn pot.

Otherwise the flame/fire seems to be localized pretty much in the bottom of the burn pot, and it is so short I can see the auger.

After reading the consumer guide part 2 on this site, it sounds as if I might have too much air, as the flame does have a bit of a "blowtorch" look to it.  Come to think of it, my wife called it "the forge" as it does look like a forge, it's blowing so hard.  In addition, there seems to be more fly ash then I'd expect once the stove has been operating for a good 30 minutes or so. (might be caused from the pellets though)

Does this sound like what's happening?  Is this something I can tweek myself, or should I call the company that came out the other week and installed it?  Would this type of situation decrease the amount of heat the stove would output?  I'd imagine it might, and perhaps burn through pellets faster then it should.


If needed, I could make a short video, or take some pictures tonight and post to help show what I'm seeing.

Thanks for any feedback!!

-Mike


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## BJ64 (Aug 21, 2008)

Hmmm.   I don't know what a p38 is but it seems like you are getting air from a leak below the flame.  As the air rushes by it is able to fan the flame similar to the blow torch and forge look.

If this thing has an ash pan door I would check the seals there.  What ever the cause is I suspect it to be a considerable size air leak.


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## ducker (Aug 21, 2008)

Sorry a Harman P38
http://www.harmanstoves.com/callouts.asp?id=10

Yes there is an ashpan under.  The flame looks considerably different if I actually do open the ashpan door while a fire is running.

the air seems to be the forced air under the burn pot rather then a leak.


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## Wet1 (Aug 21, 2008)

When you say the flame stays the same at all settings other than 5, are you waiting long enough for an actual change to take effect?  Remember, it takes quite a while to see the changes...

It's hard to say if you actually have a problem (I'm guessing probably not), but you might want to call both your dealer and Harman.


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## ducker (Aug 21, 2008)

Yes, the difference between setting it at 2 and say 4-5 is minimal at best, and that's giving it a good 15minutes or so to adjust.

At a setting of 2-3 the flame doesn't each reach outside of the burn pot.  That's why I think it's not correctly burning.


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## mkmh (Aug 21, 2008)

Sounds like it could just be something with finding the "sweet spot" on the settings. I would try adjusting feedrate to 5 but turning the blowers down to the lower setting. I believe that when you put the feedrate in turbo mode it forces the fan to high, right?
Ultimately a short video might be useful


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## CelciusMaximus (Aug 21, 2008)

here is a pic of mine after shutting everything down to allow the stove to go out. it may not be much help.make sure you turn up ypur feed rate.
also how long are your pellets and what brand?


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## JPapiPE (Aug 21, 2008)

Yeah P-38 that is a German pistol , made by Walther...same maker of the PPK ,380 that james bond carries...It is a short 9mm and not worth a chit in a confrontation.


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## slls (Aug 21, 2008)

JPapiPE said:
			
		

> Yeah P-38 that is a German pistol , made by Walther...same maker of the PPK ,380 that james bond carries...It is a short 9mm and not worth a chit in a confrontation.



Naa, P38, WWII twin engine, twin boom, fighter plane.


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## ducker (Aug 21, 2008)

yea the shutdown pick doesn't really help since there are too many additional variables involved.

pellets are a cheaper brand - most of which are 1" in length.  a couple of them are a bit longer, couple smaller.

the pellets are burning well, it's just the flame coming off them that seems odd, it's as if there's just too much air on the burn put.

again, I'll take a couple of pics tonight and make a short vid.


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## JPapiPE (Aug 21, 2008)

Well yes there was p 38 Mustage ...does that have and e  At the end or not? .... There is something going funny here.... It sounds  like my hard drive is burning up in space... there is is heat coming my way but no sound, The heat is hot and i fear I am doomed with this PC as I think something amiss. I think I will shut down now.


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## JPapiPE (Aug 21, 2008)

I'm back and the heat and noise was from a hair dryer beneath my console that I inadvertantly kicked on. Everything has cooled down and i am back on line to take questions and doubts


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## JPapiPE (Aug 21, 2008)

Maybe a damper transition in the first piece of pipe will slow your draft down


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## webbie (Aug 21, 2008)

JPapiPE said:
			
		

> Maybe a damper transition in the first piece of pipe will slow your draft down


I don't think dampers in pellets stoves are allowed.....forced combustion from the front end could result in smoke spillage. Most dampering is on the intake of such stoves.


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## ducker (Aug 21, 2008)

i'm not seeing any smoke leakage, and there's a noticeable difference in the flame appearance when I open the front of the stove so I really don't think it's a leek in one of the gaskets.


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## slls (Aug 21, 2008)

I looked in the P38 owners manual, nothing about how to adjust for first fire, must be dealer only.


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## JPapiPE (Aug 21, 2008)

Jesus H. Criminal...I did call all my local hardware stores in search of a 6" storm collar ( which of coarse has to measure 8" circumference) But nobody home, no where, no how. I did get to speak to Bert and I though


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## ducker (Aug 21, 2008)

JPapiPE said:
			
		

> Jesus H. Criminal...I did call all my local hardware stores in search of a 6" storm collar ( which of coarse has to measure 8" circumference) But nobody home, no where, no how. I did get to speak to Bert and I though



can you stop posting random junk in this thread.

Thanks.


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## rayttt (Aug 22, 2008)

I just got my P38 this past winter.
If I put it on turbo..it seems to take it a good hour to hour and a half to get the flame to be really cooking.
It's about a foot high or more and really cranks out the heat.. for the first hour it didnt so much.
I ran it most of the time last year at about a 3 to 3.5 on the feed rate (fans I always put on full).
and the flame was probably settled out around 4 inchs or so above the burn pot.


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## ducker (Aug 22, 2008)

rayttt said:
			
		

> I just got my P38 this past winter.
> If I put it on turbo..it seems to take it a good hour to hour and a half to get the flame to be really cooking.
> It's about a foot high or more and really cranks out the heat.. for the first hour it didnt so much.
> I ran it most of the time last year at about a 3 to 3.5 on the feed rate (fans I always put on full).
> and the flame was probably settled out around 4 inchs or so above the burn pot.



thanks for the great comment.  I didn't get a chance to try it out again last night.  I'll give it a try again tonight 
or this weekend setting it at 3-3.5 and see how it looks after about an hour.


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## rayttt (Aug 22, 2008)

It also matters what pellets your burning I'd suspect.


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## GVA (Aug 23, 2008)

does sound like draft is too strong.
Was it draft tested?
What is your vent setup? I bet its a short straight run... right?
How many pellets are in the burnpot? a small amount of pellets will yield the blast furnace look. more will have a more natual flame look.
It's all in the fuel to air ratio.........one of them is off a bit it seems.....


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## ducker (Aug 23, 2008)

GVA said:
			
		

> does sound like draft is too strong.
> Was it draft tested?
> What is your vent setup? I bet its a short straight run... right?
> How many pellets are in the burnpot? a small amount of pellets will yield the blast furnace look. more will have a more natual flame look.
> It's all in the fuel to air ratio.........one of them is off a bit it seems.....



No it wasn't draft tested as it was quite warm out and there really wouldn't show accurately what the draft would be.

It's a short straight run to the chimney. (see pick linkabove)

There are a small amount of pellets in the burn pot after I let it run for 30min at a lower setting.

I'm going to test it tomorrow running at a medium setting around 3.5 for 30min or so.

If the fuel/air ratio is off, I'll contact the installer company and set up a time for them to come out and modify the stove.  I don't suppose I can't modify this on my own.. if I can, please feel free to tell me


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## GVA (Aug 23, 2008)

page 20 of your manual, you need a magnahelic though.........
http://www.harmanstoves.com/doc/pp38plusm.pdf


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## ducker (Aug 25, 2008)

GVA said:
			
		

> page 20 of your manual, you need a magnahelic though.........
> http://www.harmanstoves.com/doc/pp38plusm.pdf



yea I won't be doing that.  I'm waiting for another cool night (low 50's) in order to fire it up again for another 
test run to let it sit at 3-4 for a good 45min.


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## ducker (Aug 28, 2008)

(OPS... I totally posted this in the wrong thread originally..)

Here are some pics of the stove while burning:
I'm thinking it's either the incorrect amount of air from the blower, or just really poor quality pellets. Although if it's the later, I'd think that they would perhaps burn slower and give off less heat,  If they burned faster, I'd think the system would feed more pellets quicker.

Thanks for any feedback

-Mike

just after I started it up:







the settings I have it set to:






after over an hour at those settings:






short crappy video I took of the stove operating with my camera - note if need be I can take a better quality one with a video camera.
Ha.. I didn't even think about the blower unit on the camera's mike.


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## GVA (Aug 28, 2008)

pellets are some what cheesy those sparks are the fines igniting and blowing around..
You have sufficient airflow thus draft seems strong.
But there are no pellets......................... turn the feed rate up. try 5 to start and see what happens we can go from there...


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## ducker (Aug 29, 2008)

GVA said:
			
		

> pellets are some what cheesy those sparks are the fines igniting and blowing around..
> You have sufficient airflow thus draft seems strong.
> But there are no pellets......................... turn the feed rate up. try 5 to start and see what happens we can go from there...



I have  cheesy pellets?  heh   Well to be honest I used a bag that had one end broken slightly open. (the seal of the bag was broken)
so they aren't the best bag I have.


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## bdcbean (Aug 29, 2008)

Webmaster said:
			
		

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Hi Craig, there are quite a few Pellet Stoves out there with a damper on the exhaust side. Ours is the same. It never fully closes in any position ofcourse.


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## ducker (Aug 29, 2008)

ducker said:
			
		

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See this is what is throwing me off... Yes, I could crank it to TURBO! but I expected to see a flame about 4 inches or so above the burn pot similar to what rayttt witnessed with his.

I want to make sure that there is a problem with the ratio before I call/contact the installers and have them come out to visit me/tweek the setting(s).


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## rayttt (Aug 29, 2008)

what pellets are you using?????


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## ducker (Aug 29, 2008)

Instantheat
I expected them to perhaps be a little lesser quality, but not to the point where they burn ultra fast. That's why I'm thinking it's not just the pellets but also the blower unit.  If they burned fast - I'd imagine that the flame would go out eventually.. or gasp - burn back to the hopper????? gasp. just thinking like that freaks me out


The bag I'm currently testing was broken open - when I stacked them from the pallet outside in to my basement.
So they aren't the best bag of pellets I received.

I could empty out the hopper and see if I can get just a single bag of another pellet type at say Home Depot, but last time I Was there Home Depot didn't have any pellets that I could see there.

edit. the amount of burning fly ash I see flying around in the video I figured was a cause of the less then stellar quality of the pellets.

As long as it still keeps me warm in the winter I'll be ok.


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## MCPO (Aug 29, 2008)

My P38 responds to fuel feed adjustment within one minute (auger run time increases) and in just a few minutes the results of turning up the fuel feed really becomes apparent .
 When set to Turbo mode the flames touch the heat exchanger. Takes maybe 5-10 minutes
 Maybe your draft needs to be adjusted?


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## GVA (Aug 29, 2008)

ducker said:
			
		

> the amount of burning fly ash I see flying around in the video I figured was a cause of the less then stellar quality of the pellets.


those are the fines or the sawdust burning.....  The more times a bag is handled the more fines you get.... some cheaper "cheesy" ;-)  pellets seem to have more fines.....
Anyway I'm going on an assumption that your p38, (though has a different control board from the rest of the harman line) will work on the same principle..
That is your feed rate of 1-5 then turbo relate to the amount of time per minute the stove feeds pellets when in full demand.
1=auger turns for 10 seconds every minute
2=auger turns for 20 seconds every minute
and so on up to turbo........ 60 seconds on for every minute or max feed......
Again you seem to have a feed problem with your stove...
2 things here try timing your auger cycle see how long it runs when set to 3 for example, note you can't start timing till the stove is well under way to burning.
if it only times for about 6 seconds every minute you are most likely in maintenance burn.. that is the stove thinks the room is at temp and will add pellets only to keep the fire from burning out which would look like the pic you have above.
do you have a external thermostat hooked up to the stove?
It could be a bad potentiometer or control board or room sensor or...................
Just tryin' to narrow it down


edit 
when your stove first starts up with that amount of pellets in the first pic does your flame get higher then kinda burn down to the flame in the last pic?


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## ducker (Aug 30, 2008)

GVA said:
			
		

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Great feedback thanks.
I'll check the timing this weekend.  It's a bit warm tonight so I'll skip it tonight.
I don't have a thermostat hooked up.

So it might think I'm in a maintenance burn even when I have it set to 3?  I would think a Maintenance burn would be a setting of 1.

I hope if it's a bad board or meter that, it's easily fixed and the installers don't give me static about it.

The flame is higher when the firsts starts going.  I'll try to maybe take a video next time and put it in to time lapse.


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## firewarrior820 (Aug 30, 2008)

should there be a gap on the lower right hand corner behind the burn pot ?
 that block piece looks sqewed


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## ducker (Aug 30, 2008)

xpellet freakx said:
			
		

> should there be a gap on the lower right hand corner behind the burn pot ?
> that block piece looks sqewed



I shifted that brick a little bit. I think it was just not placed correctly in there.

Ok.  I'm tired so no pictures tonight - but I did take a bunch.

With the stove set at 3 I had the following timings.
Auger on for approx 16 seconds every minute

I lowered it down to 1, timings were as follows:
Auger on approx 6 seconds every minute.

I really thought the flame was going to go out with it set to 1.  I left it going for over an hour and the flame didn't die out.


I'll toss up a few pictures tomorrow.

I think I might call the install guys, as It seems as if perhaps there's too much air blowing in the burn pot which is causing the pellets to burn with such a short flame.

- Mike


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## GVA (Aug 30, 2008)

i would lean towards a bad potentiometer or board in that case


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## ducker (Aug 30, 2008)

GVA said:
			
		

> i would lean towards a bad potentiometer or board in that case



I'm just thinking the guys at the install will think I'm crazy if I call up and I'm all "hey my stove you just installed isn't working properly."


What exactly is a potentiometer?  I did some searches and I get a lot of very Electrical Engineering types of answers.

Then again - hopefully this store will understand what I'm talking about when I tell them about how it's burning.

Thanks for the feedback. I'll call the place today.


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## GVA (Aug 30, 2008)

the feed rate and blower knobs are the potentiometers
a defective one could give you false feed rates.
crazy or not if the stove is not working right they need to look at it and fix it now before the season is full on.
can any other P-38 owners here  verify the auger cycles for Ducker, and post results...


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## MCPO (Aug 30, 2008)

Regarding verification for auger cyles. 6-7 sec  is about right for the #1 setting  (very low burn rate) so 16 sec should produce a strong tall flame after a few cycles of dropping pellets for 16 seconds. You ought be able to verify quite easily that more pellets are actually being delivered into the burn pot and burned with the longer cycles.


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## ducker (Aug 31, 2008)

Gio said:
			
		

> Regarding verification for auger cyles. 6-7 sec  is about right for the #1 setting  (very low burn rate) so 16 sec should produce a strong tall flame after a few cycles of dropping pellets for 16 seconds. You ought be able to verify quite easily that more pellets are actually being delivered into the burn pot and burned with the longer cycles.



So it really seems as if the auger moter is running longer (approx 16 seconds at a setting of 3) but I'm not really getting that much more pellets in my burn pot.


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## MCPO (Aug 31, 2008)

ducker said:
			
		

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That sounds to me like the electronics are working poroperly with regards to feed rate . However the increase in pellet delivery at a 16 second feed rate @ #3  vs 6 sec @ #1 should be quite obvious .
 It sounds like you have a feed problem within the hopper / auger section .


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## ducker (Aug 31, 2008)

Gio said:
			
		

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well yes, the amount of pellets and the size of the flame at my 3 setting vs. 1 is noticeably different.  But it still seems to be burning oddly.

I'll post pictures tomorrow of the flame at 1.


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## MCPO (Aug 31, 2008)

ducker said:
			
		

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Well now, you wrote above that the auger runs longer @#3 but you are not really getting that much more pellets in the burn pot and 2 paragraphs down you write that the amount of pellets at 3 setting is noticeably different. Which is it?

if you can see that #3 delivers more pellets (and they all burn completely) then you might just need to call a  good pellet stove repairman or someone who can do a draft test. 
 Good luck


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## GVA (Aug 31, 2008)

are the pellets long, causing a bridge?
If the timing is right  (seemed low but like I said different board from the rest) maybe the slide plate is upside down or not moving freely/fully.


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## lessoil (Aug 31, 2008)

This is a very informative thread!
I am on my 4th test burn.
My observations so far(Newbie)

Starting cold with a feed rate of 4, within 10-15 minutes the flames are touching the heat exchanger.
Starting cold with a feed rate of 3, the stove filled with smoke before full ignition. (Not enough pellets for good combustion?)
I was experimenting. The installer suggested 4 to 4.5.

As far as draft, if he made an adjustment I missed it and he did it without test equipment.
Seems to me there was something mentioned in the owner's manual about this.

**Low Draft Voltage Adjustment (May not apply to the P38/May need special test equipment)

**LOW HEAT OUTPUT
1. Feed rate too low
2. Draft too low because of gasket leak.
3. Poor quality or damp pellets
4. Combination of 1. and 2. 

**Draft Meter bolt hole location (Make sure it is not plugged/May not apply to P38)
On a P61A the draft hole is under the left rear corner of the firebox.

I don't know if my rambling is helping!!
Good Luck and I'll be checking back to see what you find out.


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## MCPO (Aug 31, 2008)

You might want to check the voltage. It should be 118-125v.
 I`d also try adjusting the trim pot clockwise in small increments to increase draft . Just remember the starting point .


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## CelciusMaximus (Sep 2, 2008)

it's time to give a jingle to the folks who installed your stove. that's what you paid them for


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## ducker (Sep 2, 2008)

just called them, they say it's because of the lack of a good draft due to the temp outside being so warm (even though I tested it at night when it dipped below 50F)
He's checking with a tech and going to call me back.  He wouldn't want to come out and find out it's only a draft issue as that wouldn't be covered under warranty.  ( I also wouldn't want this... I could just wait until Mid October to call if need be)


The amount of draft can limit the amount of pellets that fall into the hopper?

Gio - I am getting more pellets, it's visibly different.  At the 1 setting I can easily see the auger that is feeding the pellets.  At a 3 setting, I can barely see it - as there are pellets and a larger flame in front of it.


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## Wet1 (Sep 2, 2008)

I haven't followed this very closely, but I kind of doubt there's anything wrong with your stove.  Being direct vent, I doubt it has anything to do with the draft either (unless you're running some screwy flue system or configuration).  My guess is that if you do indeed have a problem, it's probably your pellets...


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## ducker (Sep 2, 2008)

well I haven't seen any single bags for sale yet... and they are my pellets I'm going to be pissed.


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## MCPO (Sep 2, 2008)

ducker said:
			
		

> just called them, they say it's because of the lack of a good draft due to the temp outside being so warm (even though I tested it at night when it dipped below 50F)
> He's checking with a tech and going to call me back.  He wouldn't want to come out and find out it's only a draft issue as that wouldn't be covered under warranty.  ( I also wouldn't want this... I could just wait until Mid October to call if need be)
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My P38 runs as good with outdoor ambient temperature at 60* as it does at 40*. While it`s true that colder air outdoors can effect draft it doesn`t seem to make a noticeable difference with my stove. However , I am vented into a 2 story 7" round SS chimney and have always had excellent draft..
 Since you can see more pellets fed into and being burned I`d have to say it`s a draft issue.
 My neighbors brand new Englander is experiencing the same problem as your Harman.  When it gets colder we plan to increase the draft to get a higher flame.


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## DiggerJim (Sep 2, 2008)

ducker said:
			
		

> just called them, they say it's because of the lack of a good draft due to the temp outside being so warm (even though I tested it at night when it dipped below 50F)


That sounds really sketchy. I've been testing my install over the past few days in temps that were up in the high 70s-mid 80s. Last night's was to test the new programmable thermostat and it was 84 degrees with the thermo set at max (95). My stove (not a QF) worked fine. 

I'd say that a stove that won't work well at 50F isn't up to the task of being a viable heating appliance.


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## ducker (Sep 2, 2008)

Gio said:
			
		

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Increasing the draft, is that something that can be modified on the unit itself?
This is vented in to a 2 Story chimney, which I've have no venting issues at all when starting a conventional fire in.

In the TroubleShooting section of the OPs manual - under the section "Feeder does not feed" #5 - Firebox draft may be too low for low draft pressure switch in feeder circuit to operate.  Check for closed doors, loose or missing gasket on doors or hopper lid, faulty pressure switch.

So, if I hear the auger move at the correct time and duration, is there a different something that might just be limiting the amount of pellets that fall down in to my hopper?  That slide plate?


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## MCPO (Sep 2, 2008)

ducker said:
			
		

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## ducker (Sep 2, 2008)

Gio said:
			
		

> Obviously there are other issues that could cause your problem and a skilled tech should be able to diagnose it rather quickly but since you aren`t going to get him to come right away and you`d like to find it yourself sooner you have to begin somewhere.
> Assuming you have no restrictions , pellets are dry, slide plate works Ok, and there are no open doors or leaky gaskets you can  begin with the correct draft. Not having a magnahelic to use , you could make small incremental adjustments to the trim pot yourself to determine if it effects the flame length and overall characteristics of a lazy vs too active a fire. If you can show that this indeed has a profound effect you can relay this info to the stove shop and he can make a more accurate adjustment.
> But you might want to keep in mind the fact that if it is more problematic than just draft  he could be quick to say your warranty is voided since you fooled with the board.



not to keen on making modifications to the stove myself; especially if it might throw me out of warranty.


So I don't get it... those modifications aren't included in the install of a stove?  hm...  I'd think if you aren't suppose to modify something on the board like that, that the installer would make the necessary changes.


Right now, I'm going to hold tight I guess, and see if I can find a single bag of different pellets to try - I guess.  That is unless I can get them to come out and tweek it.


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## DiggerJim (Sep 2, 2008)

ducker said:
			
		

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## FireJumper (Sep 2, 2008)

before everyone jumps to conclusions..  ducker - when you're burning this unit how warm is it outside? Without a t-stat installed on the unit it will run off of flue temperatures. Depending on the temps outside depends on how hard the unit burns. As it gets colder I think you will see a big difference in the way you flames look. The video you shot looks like it's in maintenance mode, which is basically the unit burning at a specific flue temperature. So it met the flue temp that you had the unit set at, for argument sakes we'll say the units looking to reach 200 degrees in the flue. The flue hit that temp and the ESP probe sees that. Now the unit will drop down to the "maint mode" and basically burn at that temp. If you install a t-stat on this unit will run completely different with ramping the flame up and down.


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## ducker (Sep 2, 2008)

DiggerJim said:
			
		

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## MCPO (Sep 2, 2008)

FireJumper said:
			
		

> before everyone jumps to conclusions..  ducker - when you're burning this unit how warm is it outside? Without a t-stat installed on the unit it will run off of flue temperatures. Depending on the temps outside depends on how hard the unit burns. As it gets colder I think you will see a big difference in the way you flames look. The video you shot looks like it's in maintenance mode, which is basically the unit burning at a specific flue temperature. So it met the flue temp that you had the unit set at, for argument sakes we'll say the units looking to reach 200 degrees in the flue. The flue hit that temp and the ESP probe sees that. Now the unit will drop down to the "maint mode" and basically burn at that temp. If you install a t-stat on this unit will run completely different with ramping the flame up and down.



Well now, that may be but how do the above comments account for my P38 operating perfectly well in any temperatures and responding to settings quickly and accurately ?  On setting #1 my stove delivers a maintence burn(very low) and on #3 the flame is like 4" high and on #5 and Turbo modes the flame gets very high and touches the heat exchanger.


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## ducker (Sep 2, 2008)

FireJumper said:
			
		

> before everyone jumps to conclusions..  ducker - when you're burning this unit how warm is it outside? Without a t-stat installed on the unit it will run off of flue temperatures. Depending on the temps outside depends on how hard the unit burns. As it gets colder I think you will see a big difference in the way you flames look. The video you shot looks like it's in maintenance mode, which is basically the unit burning at a specific flue temperature. So it met the flue temp that you had the unit set at, for argument sakes we'll say the units looking to reach 200 degrees in the flue. The flue hit that temp and the ESP probe sees that. Now the unit will drop down to the "maint mode" and basically burn at that temp. If you install a t-stat on this unit will run completely different with ramping the flame up and down.



Hm, great point,  BUT if I have it set to 3- and it's feeding pellets for 16 seconds every minute (ie. I can hear the auger motor run for 16 seconds a minute), and always 16 seconds every minute; what would the ESP probe change?  The amount of pellets allowed down in to the Auger past the plate?  Essentially I'm seeing "short fast flames" at pretty much any setting aside from 5/turbo.

Which leads me to believe that it's not flipping down in to maintenance mode, but perhaps not allowing enough pellets to drop down in to the auger (due to the plate?)


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## ducker (Sep 4, 2008)

ok... here's the feedback I got from the installer.

He figures it's most likely the pellets.
1) they might of gotten slightly damp
2) there might be sawdust down where the steel plate is causing problems with the plate moving
3) there might be some longer pellets causing a bridge over the plate, thus restricting the flow of pellets
down to the auger.



I'm going to see if I can find a couple of different brands of pellets to give a try before I actually put in a service call to them and have them come out.

I'm thinking it might be the stove too, as when I explained to him how it looked at the lowest setting, it sounds as if I'm really not getting enough pellets. as He would expect about half or more of the auger to be hidden behind pellets, and I see it clear as day.


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## ducker (Sep 5, 2008)

here are a couple of pictures of it on Maint burn... (setting of 1)


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## ducker (Sep 8, 2008)

so after testing another pellet (energix - hardwood) I experienced the same exact type of burn.
I have 1 other pellet type . Energix - softwood that I'm going to give a try tonight (if I can)

I noticed that after my last run, there were some pellets still in the hopper (not many at all) down by the slide plate,
but the fire already died out.  I was kind of surprised by this. I figured if you let the fire burn out, that it would burn all the pellets in the hopper/auger
before going out.  Is this the case?

Also, the tech that I spoke with that did the install talked with me about bad pellets.  saying they should have a shiny/glossy finish.  If the outside of the pellet is rough, its because because they got a bit damp from moisture and then dried back out.

When I view the pellets I have (instaheat) as well as the ones I recently bought at a hardware store - it appears that the majority of them are in fact that nice glossy finish on the outside. And that there are a couple here and there that are a little rougher around the edges so to speak.  I figure that they should burn decently, and that it wouldn't only fail to burn well if the majority of the pellets were infact these moisture damaged pellets.

It would just be too crazy that 2 different brands, purchased from 2 different locations, at different times, had the same issue... right?


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## rayttt (Sep 8, 2008)

I would say your pellets are probably ok then.
I turn my top knob all the way up
and the bottom knob to about a 3 and then after an hour to an hour and a half I have the 4 inchs or so of flames.
Did u have the blower knob all the way up?


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## ducker (Sep 8, 2008)

rayttt said:
			
		

> I would say your pellets are probably ok then.
> I turn my top knob all the way up
> and the bottom knob to about a 3 and then after an hour to an hour and a half I have the 4 inchs or so of flames.
> Did u have the blower knob all the way up?



yep - no 4 inch flame - again I'll test the softwood pellets tonight, just to make sure.

Hell, I even checked a couple more bags of the 3 tons I got down stairs, they all check out fairly well (a bit more dust in some then others, but I attribute that to the fact that they are on the slightly cheaper side)


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## FireJumper (Sep 8, 2008)

check to see if the feed motor is installed proprely.  

I believe some of the feed motors were manufactured with too short of a flat portion on the output shaft. This allows the shaft to spin freely whenever there is resistance against the auger rotation. 
To fix this -  Loosen the cam block bolt, I think it's a 7/16” bolt. Pull the feed motor out to where you can align the bolt from the cam block with the flat portion of the motor shaft. Re-insert the feed motor. Make sure you look at the depth of the flat portion of the shaft, and insert the motor to where the bolt will still tighten on to the flat portion. What you’ll end up with is a gap between the back of the motor casing and the end of the auger shaft, I think you should have about an 1/8" gap. 

You can also check to see if the cam bearing is hitting the pusher arm properly. If it doesn't that will also reduce the amount of feed the stove will get..


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## ducker (Sep 8, 2008)

FireJumper said:
			
		

> check to see if the feed motor is installed proprely.
> 
> I believe some of the feed motors were manufactured with too short of a flat portion on the output shaft. This allows the shaft to spin freely whenever there is resistance against the auger rotation.
> To fix this -  Loosen the cam block bolt, I think it's a 7/16” bolt. Pull the feed motor out to where you can align the bolt from the cam block with the flat portion of the motor shaft. Re-insert the feed motor. Make sure you look at the depth of the flat portion of the shaft, and insert the motor to where the bolt will still tighten on to the flat portion. What you’ll end up with is a gap between the back of the motor casing and the end of the auger shaft, I think you should have about an 1/8" gap.
> ...



Awesome feedback FireJumper - if my stove was out of warranty... I'd be all over checking this out.  But it's  only a month old with maybe 10 hours of total burn time so far.
I'd rather have a service tech check in to that.


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## CelciusMaximus (Sep 9, 2008)

dude .....i'll say it again call the people who installed your stove.they should have made sure your stove worked correctly when installed.
that 's what you paid for.


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## MCPO (Sep 9, 2008)

Looking at the pics it seems like the amount of pellets being delivered is less than what should be in the pot.  My lowest setting  maintenance burn has a short flame but it is uniform and spread wider with more pellets than what your pictures show .
 It looks to me like there could be a pellet feed problem.


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## ducker (Sep 9, 2008)

CelciusMaximus said:
			
		

> dude .....i'll say it again call the people who installed your stove.they should have made sure your stove worked correctly when installed.
> that 's what you paid for.



Already did, and planning on having them come out.  Problem is, I don't want to shell out a $75 or whatever fee they charge for a service call if it's simply crappy pellets I'm using.  Being a pellet newbie, I have no way of knowing!

But you're right, that is what I paid for.


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## CelciusMaximus (Sep 13, 2008)

you can burn any grade of pellet in a harman with fairly good results. your problem isn't your pellets.


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## ducker (Sep 23, 2008)

they are coming out this Wednesday to take a look at the stove. I hope they can figure it out.  They don't want it running when they arrive, I think I'm going to empty the majority of the pellets out of the bin too, incase they want to look at that trapdoor and what not back there..

Hopefully they find something cause I don't want to have to shell out a wad a cash for them to tell me.. I'm imaging things


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## slink (Sep 23, 2008)

This is exactly why the P38 isn't my fav stove.  Once you get them tuned in they work great.  Getting there can be a pain.  First off I doubt the pellets are the problem.  As long as you can here the tinkle sound when the auger motor turns you are getting fuel.  It could be as simple as too much draft which can be adjusted by turning down the pot on the contrl board.  DO NOT DO IT WHILE PLUGGED IN there are exposed electrical contacts on the board that like to bite. Ask me how I know.  You do need to give the stove time to adjust after you change the heat output setting, 1/2 hour may not be too long.  The stoves react and ramp up or down in stages that may seem to take too long.  The esp probe may be giving the control board a bad signal and causing the stove to burn cooler than it should.  The problem with the p38 vs. the rest of the Harman line is it's more difficult to trouble shoot.  Once you get it right you should be very happy with it, I know of several with 8 to 10 years of operation with maybe an exhaust motor replaced one time.


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## cantman (Sep 23, 2008)

Just a long-shot here... Does this stove have a room temp sensor or thermostat?
Maybe it isn't hooked up or is defective and the main control board is seeing a
open curcuit. Maybe just stuck in "maintenance burn" because of an open room temp sensor 
circuit.


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## slink (Sep 23, 2008)

cantman said:
			
		

> Just a long-shot here... Does this stove have a room temp sensor or thermostat?
> Maybe it isn't hooked up or is defective and the main control board is seeing a
> open curcuit. Maybe just stuck in "maintenance burn" because of an open room temp sensor
> circuit.



Good idea but the control board doesn't work that way in thermostat mode.  If the t stat is hooked up the primary controls still function normally.  The t stat just tells the stove to go into turbo mode(high heat high fan) when the t stat closes the circuit. When the t stat ciruit opens the control board just operated where ever the knobs are set.  So you could have the stove set on 4 and still use the t stat but the room may be so hot the t stat never closes.


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## ducker (Sep 23, 2008)

no t-stat on it.  The time the auger motor kicks on does change based on the setting. I'm just not getting enough pellets it seems like.

Yea Slink, I think that it might be the draft, or the slide plate that allows pellets down.

I'm a little confused about how that slide plate works... when I see very few pellets in the hopper I never see the slide plate move.  If I put more pellets on top of the plate, I hear my pellets clink down in to the auger area (I assume) yet I have no idea how they get down there.. lol  I've looked at the schematic and have no clue.. heh.


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## CelciusMaximus (Sep 23, 2008)

BRAVO SLINK
thanks for contributing your knowledge.
BTW i see you're affiliated with stoves-n-stuff.
i've purchased 2 harmans from the allentown/emmaus
store, good folks and good service.


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## slink (Sep 23, 2008)

ducker said:
			
		

> no t-stat on it.  The time the auger motor kicks on does change based on the setting. I'm just not getting enough pellets it seems like.
> 
> Yea Slink, I think that it might be the draft, or the slide plate that allows pellets down.
> 
> I'm a little confused about how that slide plate works... when I see very few pellets in the hopper I never see the slide plate move.  If I put more pellets on top of the plate, I hear my pellets clink down in to the auger area (I assume) yet I have no idea how they get down there.. lol  I've looked at the schematic and have no clue.. heh.



The slide plate moves because there is a cam bearing that opens the feeder arm as the auger rotates.  If you remove a lower side shield on the right side as you face it you can look up under the hopper and see a box that has a wingnut holding a cover on.  The dealer should have explained that once a year that cover need to be opened and that sawdust fines buildup in there and must be cleaned out so the slide plate can move freely.

By the way I am with Stoves & Stuff not Stoves n Stuff.  We are different companies.  I have heard good things about the also.  Thanks.


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## ducker (Sep 23, 2008)

slink said:
			
		

> ducker said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If I look at my Operating Manual, specficially the Feeder Parts section, I see what you're referring to - the wingnut holding a (cast cover assembly).  After that is the pusher arm and the slide plate.  See, I figured I would be able to actually see the slide plate move while the auger is running.

great info here... thanks a ton!


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## imacman (Sep 23, 2008)

ducker said:
			
		

> great info here... thanks a ton!



Does that mean you're going to thank him with a ton of pellets???   :lol:


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## MrJitters (Sep 25, 2008)

JPapiPE said:
			
		

> Yeah P-38 that is a German pistol , made by Walther...same maker of the PPK ,380 that james bond carries...It is a short 9mm and not worth a chit in a confrontation.


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## MrJitters (Sep 25, 2008)

JPapiPE said:
			
		

> Yeah P-38 that is a German pistol , made by Walther...same maker of the PPK ,380 that james bond carries...It is a short 9mm and not worth a chit in a confrontation.



However, it will supply 8 warning shots and a well placed throw.   :lol:


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## DiggerJim (Sep 25, 2008)

MrJitters said:
			
		

> However, it will supply 8 warning shots and a well placed throw.   :lol:


If you need 8 warning shots you shouldn't be shooting or throwing. Anyone who can't hit the center of a 6" round target (like the bridge of someone's nose) with a single shot shouldn't be shooting - and only one shot would be necessary. You can do it with a 22 for goodness sakes. <sheesh>

(Yes I know there are cops in NYC who can shoot at someone 50 or 60 times and only wound them, but that isn't behavior we should be emulating.)


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## MrJitters (Sep 25, 2008)

DiggerJim said:
			
		

> MrJitters said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I was kidding.  Come on up to Vermont fellow pellet burner.  We'll vent some paper at 300 yards with my IHC and LC-68 ammo with iron sights.   Now that is fun.


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## DiggerJim (Sep 25, 2008)

MrJitters said:
			
		

> I was kidding.  Come on up to Vermont fellow pellet burner.  We'll vent some paper at 300 yards with my IHC and LC-68 ammo with iron sights.   Now that is fun.


If you come down here next month we have a Class III Pumpkin match at our club - 50 cal belt-fed water cooled Browning machine guns can make pie filling in seconds  We're one of the few clubs in CT that has a Class III program.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=20719417


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## MrJitters (Sep 25, 2008)

Ahhh, that old wc Browning.  You guys know how to have fun.  Those pumpkins don't stand a chance.     Stop by www.milsurpforum.com and say hey.  We love all things Browning over there.  Take care.  We need to get this thread back on pellets here.   ;-)


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## ducker (Sep 25, 2008)

wooo. so the shop came by today and checked out the stove.   It's ironic, all my pondering on whether or not to line my chimney... well turns out that I have too much draft in my chimney, combined with the fact the blower was on the high side.  This caused my pellets to burn too fast... as he put it "the pellets looked as if they were jumping out of the pop they were burning so fast."

I haven't test fired it up since he made the modifications, but when I do I'll post some comparison pics.

Thanks again all for the cool feedback.


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## DiggerJim (Sep 25, 2008)

MrJitters said:
			
		

> We need to get this thread back on pellets here.   ;-)


Ummmm...when a 50 cal round hits a pellet pile it jumps? Or "how many pellets can fit in a 50 caliber shell?" .... How about, "can I use pellets in bags instead of sand to help stabilize my Browning?"


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## CelciusMaximus (Sep 25, 2008)

glad to hear things went well. what exactly did your service tech do?
happy heating!


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## CelciusMaximus (Sep 25, 2008)

oh yeah.please put up some pics.
thanks


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## ducker (Sep 26, 2008)

I wasn't there but he turned the draft setting on the board down to pretty much as low as it could go I believe, as well as toned down the amount of air in the burn pot.

I didn't get a chance to fire it up yet, but I believe I will be tonight.


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## bmwbj (Sep 26, 2008)

Ducker, Please keep us informed, I finally got my Mom's stove lit for the first time and 
it did not burn all that well either...I do know that her chimney does draft very well ( maybe too much), I
might have to have someone go there and adjust her draft as well.

Lets see some pics of the "New" burn cycle at different number levels like your previous posts.

Thanks, Bob


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