# What's the Current Quality on Heat Pump Water Heaters?



## Otis B Driftwood (Apr 14, 2015)

We know about the GeoSpring Mk1 ... a qualified disaster. Then ... 
GE surprises us all by repatriating production here and – VOiLA! 
problem solved.

Or is it?

What's your make? Any issues? I wanna know 'cuz I'm STiLL mulling 
DWH options. Hey, I've already paid through my nose with oil, what's a 
few week's diff?


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## STIHLY DAN (Apr 14, 2015)

I think state has a higher cop. But I am finishing my 3rd year with the geo and have had zero issues. I installed 3 others that have also had no issues, and everyone reports large savings. If there was an 80 gal option at the time I would have went with it, silly not to get the biggest when it comes to HP.


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## woodgeek (Apr 15, 2015)

The consensus around here (in addition to the above), is that you can buy the geo at a big box store and buy the extended warranty.  Lots of geospring users on here...1-2 users IIRC have had (minor) problems. 

If you are on an older oil system now, and you can shut it down in the winter, your annual savings should be >$400, even with the current 'low' price of oil, and your expensive CT electricity.

Look for rebates from your local power co, CT, feds, etc.  These can get


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## sloeffle (Apr 15, 2015)

My plan is to buy one in the next month or so. I plan on getting an AO Smith / State Industries 50 gallon model. I can buy it cheaper than I can a GE and they seem to not have as many issues. *Personally *I am not a big GE fan due to having issues with some of their other appliances.


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## Otis B Driftwood (Apr 15, 2015)

Woody: I'm gonna assume that since today is TAX DUE DAY, 
the rebates are gonna dry up. Still ... I've read here many of you 
have practically stolen them.

Sloef: EXACTLY. Remember, these things require COMPRESSORS. 
Utterly unnecessary digital displays / motherboards aside, THANKS 
useless marketing department, what's THE biggest fail in major 
appliances? Right: COMPRESSORS. I look at my fridge every 
day wondering when it's gonna blow. Again.

Appliances have been Sh!t the past coupla decades; "Customer Service" 
non-existent. If I treated my customers the way these clowns have, 
I woulda been SH!TCANNED a looong time ago. They really didn't 
seem to care about legacy or reputation, did they?


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## woodgeek (Apr 15, 2015)

My elec co rebate was them cutting me a check for $300.  Not tax related.


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## STIHLY DAN (Apr 15, 2015)

Most utilities around here have rebates of some sort. If a compressor craps the bed you just run on element. In 3 years I am far enough ahead that I could buy a new one and still have saved money, compared to not getting one at all.


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## woodgeek (Apr 15, 2015)

sloeffle said:


> My plan is to buy one in the next month or so. I plan on getting an AO Smith / State Industries 50 gallon model. I can buy it cheaper than I can a GE and they seem to not have as many issues. *Personally *I am not a big GE fan due to having issues with some of their other appliances.



My 3 yo AO Smith unit turned into a brick in the middle of February....no signs of life.  They did a few diagnostics with me over the phone, FedExed be a new control board, and I replaced it.


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## sloeffle (Apr 16, 2015)

woodgeek said:


> My 3 yo AO Smith unit turned into a brick in the middle of February....no signs of life.  They did a few diagnostics with me over the phone, FedExed be a new control board, and I replaced it.


I think we all can agree that appliances these days are made as cheap as possible so they can make money off of the extended warranty that they sell. I realize there are probably double the amount of GE HPHW's out there than AO Smith but if I were a guessing man the percentage of AO Smith HPHW's having issues is much smaller. I do like the idea of buying an American built product ( GE ) but since we live in a global economy ( it is probably built from 90% Chinese made parts ) that is not going to sway my decision back to GE after all of the issue I had with their POS refrigerator.


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## Otis B Driftwood (Apr 16, 2015)

I hereby apply my verdict:

Unreliable.

As much as I hate paying the oil guy, I wouldn't sit well 
with a technology that _may_ crap out in the dead of winter. 
The heating element? OK, but then why pay for the pump?

Seems as if these guys are pumping out more hot air than cool.


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## woodgeek (Apr 16, 2015)

Otis B Driftwood said:


> I hereby apply my verdict:
> 
> Unreliable.
> 
> ...



Gotta disagree here.  In my case the HPWH saves me $1000/yr relative to the (now scrap) oil boiler.  

The unit comes with a great warranty, AO Smith express sent me a new board for free and I was only out of HW for 36 hours.  In terms of tech, its about as complicated as a window air-conditioner or refrigerator.  And unlike a HVAC heat pump, it only has to run for a few hours a day.

Even with the high-end $2200 unit I got, that is a pretty good ROI.   I am laughing all the way to the bank.  The 2 hours I spent faffing with the board are still paying me handsomely.

If you can get a GE for a post rebate price of $500, with an extended warranty (parts and labor), and save $500/year relative to oil, you'd be nuts not to pull the trigger.

At my most conspiratorial, I wonder about all the negative geospring reviews.  bad sampling (1% fault rate on 100000 units is 1000 pissed off people posting reviews).  Or competition-paid sock puppets?


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## woodgeek (Apr 16, 2015)

Otis B Driftwood said:


> As much as I hate paying the oil guy, I wouldn't sit well
> with a technology that _may_ crap out in the dead of winter.



Of course, my 15 year old boiler would go on the fritz about once a year, needing a weekend repair call, and always needed a couple hundred $$ in parts.  How's that for reliable tech that _will_ crap out in the middle of winter.


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## Otis B Driftwood (Apr 16, 2015)

woodgeek said:


> I was only out of HW for 36 hours.



In February. Mrs Driftwood would punch me back to 1928 if that happened.


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## sloeffle (Apr 16, 2015)

@woodgeek When your HPHW died, did the electric element(s) work or was the whole thing down ?


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## Otis B Driftwood (Apr 16, 2015)

woodgeek said:


> Of course, my 15 year old boiler would go on the fritz about once a year, needing a weekend repair call, and always needed a couple hundred $$ in parts.  How's that for reliable tech that _will_ crap out in the middle of winter.



Here, here. Us too. But that's like saying "don't invest in bonds in case 
the US economy bombs". Well, if that happened we'd all be in a world 
of p_00_p anyway. Ya gotta draw a line. I just think these pumps are a 
little too sketchy. As always, YMMV.

In fact, we have a Burnham PV83. Not the PV7, mind you, but I'm sure 
you heard. Knock on wood. That class action sure gave Burnham a black eye.

Our oil-fired water heater? Never a problem, ever.

That's why I'm thinkin' Rob's idea of an indirect with electric bkup 
is a rational compromise. Plus, I can add a wood boiler down the 
pike. Not likely though – limited space. Besides, Mrs Driftwood 
may tell me where to pipe those logs.


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## woodgeek (Apr 16, 2015)

sloeffle said:


> @woodgeek When your HPHW died, did the electric element(s) work or was the whole thing down ?



There is just one control board, and it pulled enough current to pop a little on-board fuse.  Replaced the fuse, the new one popped.  

No control board power....it was a brick like it was powered off.

The next day I had a new board, swapped it in, and it fired right up.


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## Otis B Driftwood (Apr 16, 2015)

That's anudder concern of mine: the wiring here was done by chimps. 
Not chumps, chimps.


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## STIHLY DAN (Apr 16, 2015)

Otis B Driftwood said:


> I hereby apply my verdict:
> 
> Unreliable.
> 
> ...



Of all heat sources, I would bet that oil is the most unreliable. No sorry anything above #2 will be worse. I have to admit that when I saw a HPWH I didn't give it a thought, yah gimmick. When I found out there was a way to get one free, well then that's another story. That's the only reason I did it, purely by chance and I'm glad I did.


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## mithesaint (Apr 17, 2015)

I've had my Geospring for about 9 months now with zero issues.  Ohio didn't have all the rebates, so I paid pretty close to full price, but it's been worth it so far.  I replaced a propane water heater that was costing me somewhere north of $500/ year to run.  

In the four months I've actually analyzed my electric bill from year to year (December-March)...my electric bill went DOWN with the addition of the Geospring.  I think it's because I have a damp basement, and the dehumidifier didn't need to run as often due to the Geospring.  It should pay for itself in less than 2 years, and it's at least $500 bucks in the bank yearly after that.  Works for me.  

Go for it.  EVERYTHING eventually breaks.


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## sloeffle (Apr 17, 2015)

mithesaint said:


> In the four months I've actually analyzed my electric bill from year to year (December-March)...my electric bill went DOWN with the addition of the Geospring. I think it's because I have a damp basement, and the dehumidifier didn't need to run as often due to the Geospring. It should pay for itself in less than 2 years, and it's at least $500 bucks in the bank yearly after that. Works for me.


If I add in the cost of not having to run to a dehumidifier for 3 - 4 months a year in my basement my ROI drop <3 years. I would agree that it is a no brainer.


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## billb3 (Apr 17, 2015)

Otis B Driftwood said:


> We know about the GeoSpring Mk1 ... a qualified disaster. Then ...
> GE surprises us all by repatriating production here and – VOiLA!
> problem solved.
> 
> ...



I stuck with oil and with electric at $0.285/kwh am glad I did.
93% efficient oil boiler/ dual coil water tank with the bottom  coil connected to a solar panel. 
If I could have switched to nat gas I would have.


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## woodgeek (Apr 17, 2015)

billb3 said:


> I stuck with oil and with electric at $0.285/kwh am glad I did.
> 93% efficient oil boiler/ dual coil water tank with the bottom  coil connected to a solar panel.
> If I could have switched to nat gas I would have.



How much oil do you burn in the summer?


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## tom in maine (Apr 17, 2015)

I have been associated with HeatingstuffLLC for a while. They had been selling Nyletherms. They now are selling new Etech HPWH, which the Nyletherm copied.
Here is a link: http://www.heatingstuffllc.com/etech-heat-pump/
The Etech seems to be a bit quieter to me. The controls are hand wired and the build quality looks good to me. We use them in our shop for DHW and to keep things dry whenever summer comes.

These units tie into your tank. So when the tank leaks, you do not toss the HP.


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## Otis B Driftwood (Apr 17, 2015)

STIHLY DAN said:


> I would bet that oil is the most unreliable.



Technically or philosophically?

I believe oil will still be here for the life duration of whatever I get. 
No, I'd only use #2.


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## Otis B Driftwood (Apr 17, 2015)

mithesaint said:


> Go for it.  EVERYTHING eventually breaks.



Sooner than later anymore. I'd like to think we're finally entering a long-
overdue golden age of appliance durability, but that's after the cost of going 
through a period of feeding landfills the size of Texas, not to mention the 
utterly unnecessary destruction of our manufacturing base.

I believe you guys, but one good year won't inform the next twenty. 
Installation costs alone, it's gotta be the right choice.


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## Otis B Driftwood (Apr 17, 2015)

Tom, thanks, I'll check that out too.


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## DBoon (Apr 17, 2015)

Otis B Driftwood said:


> I hereby apply my verdict:
> Unreliable.
> As much as I hate paying the oil guy, I wouldn't sit well
> with a technology that may crap out in the dead of winter.
> The heating element? OK, but then why pay for the pump?



I have to say that I agree with Otis.  For the last 20 years, I've been worried about my refrigerator failing, and we all know that a refrigerator uses the same basic technology as a HPWH.  So I finally took the plunge and replaced my refrigerator with an old-fashioned ice box.  It's a little more difficult to use, but it is very quiet.  The only downside is that I have to arrange for a thrice weekly ice block delivery, but I sleep better at night knowing that the reliability will probably be better.


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## Brian26 (Apr 19, 2015)

I am in CT as well. I have a GE Geopsring purchased from Lowes with the Energize CT rebate and federal rebate.Total cost around $200.

Only problem in the past 2 years was a bad element. I blame that on running it in heat pump only mode from day 1 and never using the elements. GE sent 2 new elements out no questions asked. The compressor on these is made by Embarco in Brazil. I work in refrigeration and they make very reliable compressors. 

Buy one. My energy use from last August with my wife and I. Average cost around $10-15 a month and thats with CT's crazy high electric rates.


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## Kobeman (Apr 19, 2015)

I just put a 50 gal Geospring in a month ago. Bought it online, a "open box" one from Interstate appliance upon a recommendation from someone who posted on here, 899 plus free fed ex liftgate shipping to my door. My co-op had 650 rebate. It arrived in a factory sealed box and no dents or scratches with full mfg 1 yr full 10 yr parts warranty, so far i love the thing!


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## EatenByLimestone (Apr 19, 2015)

Otis B Driftwood said:


> Sooner than later anymore. I'd like to think we're finally entering a long-
> overdue golden age of appliance durability, but that's after the cost of going
> through a period of feeding landfills the size of Texas, not to mention the
> utterly unnecessary destruction of our manufacturing base.
> ...




I just replaced a Montgomery wards branded fridge last fall.  It has a 10 year compressor warranty.  I hope it is a high quality unit.


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## mithesaint (Apr 20, 2015)

Brian26 - how did you know the element went bad if you weren't using it?  Just wondering what I need to keep an eye out for.  I've been running in heat pump mode from day 1 as well.  Thanks.


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## STIHLY DAN (Apr 20, 2015)

Put in electric only see if it gets hot. I try to exercise mine every few months for a day. Just to help keep any build up at bay.


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## Otis B Driftwood (Apr 21, 2015)

Brian26 said:


> I am in CT as well. Buy one.



B-b-but what about February? Looks GREAT in August though.

Gotta agree with Steely ... methinks that running the element 
is a good idea. Interesting that the last installer mentioned 
running the boiler a few times in summer to keep buildup 
down. _It doesn't run in the summer now anyway, we've 
got oil-fired HW ... _the noise between either engine is 
practically identical.


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## Brian26 (Apr 21, 2015)

mithesaint said:


> Brian26 - how did you know the element went bad if you weren't using it?  Just wondering what I need to keep an eye out for.  I've been running in heat pump mode from day 1 as well.  Thanks.



The unit gave an error code that was for check upper and lower elements. I called GE and they send out 2 new elements. I noticed the new elements were like twice the thickness and had twice the element looped back. I replaced them and try and run them once or twice a month. I suspect maybe they get buildup on them and it needs to be burned. off.


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## Brian26 (Apr 21, 2015)

Otis B Driftwood said:


> B-b-but what about February? Looks GREAT in August though.
> 
> Gotta agree with Steely ... methinks that running the element
> is a good idea. Interesting that the last installer mentioned
> ...



I will try and pull my usage off my electricity monitor for some winter months. My below ground basement stays just about exactly the same temp year round so I don't think there is much difference.


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## mithesaint (Apr 21, 2015)

Otis B Driftwood said:


> B-b-but what about February? Looks GREAT in August though.



See my previous post in the thread.  I've never directly compared before and after bills in the summer time, but my wintertime bills were cheaper AFTER I replaced a propane WH with the Geospring, likely due to less dehumidifier usage.  

It's fairly obvious that you don't want to put a HP WH in, and that's fine.  If your current WH works fine, I wouldn't replace it either.  My old propane unit was 17 years old, and I really wanted to get off the propane.  I still have a propane furnace in the basement and a tank in the yard for backup, but haven't used any propane since I took the WH out.  For me, it was a no brainer.  I've eliminated $50 of propane every month.  $600/year pays for a HP WH really quickly, even if it breaks in 5 years.  I'd still be ahead.


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## billb3 (Apr 22, 2015)

woodgeek said:


> How much oil do you burn in the summer?


None if I shut the boiler off.
(boiler is cold start)
But we've found that really isn't practical because every now and then circumstance change and  we run out of hot water  grandkids taking baths staying overnite, a whole bunch of showers prior to going out to eat instead of in the morning, etc..
I have shut the emergency switch off  weeks at a time which saves a bit more and then turn it back on in anticipation of need/use.
In our last house we had a separate electric heater that had it's own meter and power from 9PM to 5AM or so. We'd run out of hot water and sometimes last person to take a shower only took a warm one or none.
We've played the game before so it's really not that much of an inconvenience and it's not an inconvenience very often and we have a back-up if it is.
We don't have to play the wait-for-the-electric-water-heater-to-heat-back-up game and I've played that game in the past too.


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## maple1 (Apr 23, 2015)

billb3 said:


> None if I shut the boiler off.
> (boiler is cold start)
> But we've found that really isn't practical because every now and then circumstance change and  we run out of hot water  grandkids taking baths staying overnite, a whole bunch of showers prior to going out to eat instead of in the morning, etc..
> I have shut the emergency switch off  weeks at a time which saves a bit more and then turn it back on in anticipation of need/use.
> ...


 
Yes, but since you don't have hot water with the boiler turned off (or enough of it) - so how much oil would you burn over the course of a summer? Then since I think the rest of your summer DHW heating is done by solar, the cost of that system would also have to be factored in by someone considering doing that also.

I used oil for 17 years, and did consider updating my oil side with a new efficient boiler and also incorporating some solar thermal when I made my system changes 3 years ago. I concluded those just didn't make sense here $-wise, we got rid of all our oil stuff & replaced with electric resistance. And wood of course. We (family of 5) have no shortage of hot water for $25/mo of $0.18 electricity when just using the electric in the summer - hard to beat when also factoring in capital cost & other factors. Every situation is different though.


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## velvetfoot (Apr 23, 2015)

I don't know if I said this before, but the pellet boiler, or the oil boiler runs longer (when heating the house)with the indirect buffer tank.  I was bothered with what seemed to me like short cycling when we had only oil.


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## AK13 (Apr 23, 2015)

Otis B Driftwood said:


> That's why I'm thinkin' Rob's idea of an indirect with electric bkup
> is a rational compromise. Plus, I can add a wood boiler down the
> pike. Not likely though – limited space. Besides, Mrs Driftwood
> may tell me where to pipe those logs.



Here is a better idea. Get a HPWH with an indirect coil in it for back-up. Hubbell Electric hot water heater company are based out of CT. They are built in Massachusetts. You can get a nice big 80 gallon tank (I have the 65). Will you pay more than the GE? Yes, I'm sure but you'll have an American made product. You'll have a local company standing behind it. You'll have back-up from your oil burner in the event of a problem. And you get a cement lined tank that will last 20+ years.


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## john193 (Apr 23, 2015)

I've had my geospring for exactly a year now. I purchased it with the 10 years warranty on labor for another $99, it already comes with 10 years on parts. No issues to report. Have been running on HP mode for the past year. I did once run it on all electric to "exercise" the elements after reading another user had issues here. 

My basement is unfinished and unconditioned. The heater is in a utility closet roughly 9 by 9. the geospring has reduced the temp in the room by up to 3 degrees F when running. In the winter when the basement can go as low as 49 it runs longer, I'd guess an hour or so then when the basement is 68 in the summer. 

As for electric usage, I seem to be averaging about an extra 100 kW per month in the winter and maybe 50 kW in the summer to run the unit. Less than half of what I paid in oil and I have the added benefit of dehumidification.


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## maple1 (Apr 23, 2015)

*and I have the added benefit of dehumidification.*

There's the zinger. A pretty understated benefit IMO.


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## velvetfoot (Apr 23, 2015)

maple1 said:


> A pretty understated benefit IMO.


Also overstated, IMO.  It helps some, IMO.


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## AK13 (Apr 24, 2015)

Here is a smoking deal on a HPWH. Of course no warranty, but $500 is cheap. If you could get rebates on this unit it might be almost free. 

https://www.gpconservation.com/airg...EuBRj4pZfhuQ83OAg9VSz-wwrmUmTWBx1KBoCJ7zw_wcB


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## john193 (Apr 24, 2015)

The utility rebates are tied to serial numbers. I wouldn't chance it. My local lowes had the 50 gallon discounted to 599 for earth day. A fantastic price considering the 400 rebate in my area. But it was very store specific.


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## woodgeek (Apr 24, 2015)

The 80 gallon version is only $699.  (My 80 gal had a $2100 MSRP).

https://www.gpconservation.com/airgenerate-ati80.html

I get a $300 rebate, so I could get that one for $400 with free shipping.  (And no warranty.)


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## STIHLY DAN (Apr 25, 2015)

That sounds like a great deal, if shipping is free I will look into it, Tie it in series with the geo.


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## Brian26 (Apr 25, 2015)

Otis B Driftwood said:


> B-b-but what about February? Looks GREAT in August though.
> 
> Gotta agree with Steely ... methinks that running the element
> is a good idea. Interesting that the last installer mentioned
> ...



Here is my usage since January 1st. The spikes in Febuary and March are due to me running the 4500 watt elements after having issues with the elements after running the unit in heat pump only mode. I replaced the element in January and will fire the elements twice a month. 

So far average cost is $17.04 a month this year and thats with the most expensive electricity in the lower 48 here in CT.


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## STIHLY DAN (Apr 25, 2015)

Is that graph just the water heater? If so does it have the option of average usage in the month or just highest day?


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## semipro (Apr 25, 2015)

woodgeek said:


> The 80 gallon version is only $699.  (My 80 gal had a $2100 MSRP).
> 
> https://www.gpconservation.com/airgenerate-ati80.html
> 
> I get a $300 rebate, so I could get that one for $400 with free shipping.  (And no warranty.)


These appear to be made in China per Don's post here: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/anyone-buy-an-airtap-lately.68659/#post-867594


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## woodgeek (Apr 25, 2015)

semipro said:


> These appear to be made in China per Don's post here: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/anyone-buy-an-airtap-lately.68659/#post-867594



For the record, my $2k AOSmith is also made in China.


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## sloeffle (Apr 25, 2015)

woodgeek said:


> The 80 gallon version is only $699.  (My 80 gal had a $2100 MSRP).
> 
> https://www.gpconservation.com/airgenerate-ati80.html
> 
> I get a $300 rebate, so I could get that one for $400 with free shipping.  (And no warranty.)


I was on that site over the winter looking at those HPHW's and they were twice the cost they are now. I wonder why they are selling them so cheap ?

I might reconsider getting an AO smith if I can get a 66 gallon for $499. The Airtap has a stainless steel tank also.

EDIT: From the link woodgeek provided:

It has come to our attention that AirGenerate is no longer providing a manufacturer's warranty on this item.  This unfortunate situation gives you the opportunity to purchase a top-of-the-line heat pump water heater at a price that is below our cost! Plus, we at GP Conservation will stand behind the product with our own one-year warranty on the ATI80 and will provide a replacement or refund in the event of product failure. Feel free to call for further details - 503-907-2899. 

The AO Smith has a 10 year warranty. Even at almost double the cost I think it would still be worth buying the AO Smith


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## Brian26 (Apr 26, 2015)

woodgeek said:


> For the record, my $2k AOSmith is also made in China.



Interesting article about the GE Geospring and how it was originally manufactured in China and now made here cheaper,more reliable and better quality.  

Yet this year, something curious and hopeful has begun to happen, something that cannot be explained merely by the ebbing of the Great Recession, and with it the cyclical return of recently laid-off workers. On February 10, Appliance Park opened an all-new assembly line in Building 2—largely dormant for 14 years—to make cutting-edge, low-energy water heaters. It was the first new assembly line at Appliance Park in 55 years—and the water heaters it began making had previously been made for GE in a Chinese contract factory

So a funny thing happened to the GeoSpring on the way from the cheap Chinese factory to the expensive Kentucky factory: The material cost went down. The labor required to make it went down. The quality went up. Even the energy efficiency went up.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/12/the-insourcing-boom/309166/


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## Ashful (Apr 26, 2015)

Otis B Driftwood said:


> In February. Mrs Driftwood would punch me back to 1928 if that happened.


Get a second DHW heater.  We have one in the basement, another on the 3rd floor.  When the oil-fired boiler in the basement goes down (once in 4 years), we can still get hot showers in the third floor suite.

My childhood home, we had the Electric HWH in series with the boiler's DHW tank, in a primitive endless hot water scheme.  The electric was fed with hot water from the boiler's tank, so it didn't run much, but when we shut the boiler down for summer, we still had hot water.  This is how I might set up a HPWH, if I ever go that route.

To the OP:  any concern with having a cold basement in winter?  Higher likelihood of frozen pipes?


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## velvetfoot (Apr 26, 2015)

Again, hasn't GE sold off its appliance division to Electrolux?


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## mithesaint (Apr 26, 2015)

velvetfoot said:


> Also overstated, IMO.  It helps some, IMO.



Depends on your location and basement.  I have a 70 pint dehumidifier that runs 24/7/365 or close to it.  I can actually watch the electric meter spin...anyway, any dehumidification that comes as the result of heating water is very very valuable.


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## Ashful (Apr 26, 2015)

mithesaint said:


> I can actually watch the electric meter spin...anyway, any dehumidification that comes as the result of heating water is very very valuable.


People joke about wearing out their meter, but we actually did!  Mechanical one just stopped one day.  Took a month of free electric to have us notice.  We have three dehumidifiers, and four HVAC systems, which run quite a bit in summer.  A HPWH would save us in summer, less in winter.


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## BrotherBart (Apr 26, 2015)

velvetfoot said:


> Again, hasn't GE sold off its appliance division to Electrolux?



Awaiting regulatory approval later this year.


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## STIHLY DAN (Apr 26, 2015)

Bradford white is now rebuilding /adding on to be, full on us built as well.


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## mithesaint (Apr 26, 2015)

Ashful said:


> People joke about wearing out their meter, but we actually did!  Mechanical one just stopped one day.  Took a month of free electric to have us notice.  We have three dehumidifiers, and four HVAC systems, which run quite a bit in summer.  A HPWH would save us in summer, less in winter.



Wow.  I was actually just joking about the meter.  I'm grateful to have my electric bill and not yours!!  Although, I imagine your house has a bit for sq ft. and significantly more charm/history.


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## Otis B Driftwood (Apr 27, 2015)

Brian26 said:


> So a funny thing happened to the GeoSpring on the way from the cheap Chinese factory to the expensive Kentucky factory: The material cost went down. The labor required to make it went down. The quality went up. Even the energy efficiency went up.
> 
> http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/12/the-insourcing-boom/309166/



Yup, read that last week at a mirror website, hence this thread. Coulda posted it then, 
but it woulda knocked the wind outta the thread's purpose. Thanks for posting it.


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## Otis B Driftwood (Apr 27, 2015)

Ashful said:


> To the OP:  any concern with having a cold basement in winter?  Higher likelihood of frozen pipes?



Yes, but the pipes won't freeze. The pipes in the adjacent garage _did_ freeze 
at one point in Feb, but we have pipe tape that controlled that. One day – 
no water! We were freaking. Then realized Yers Truly never plugged 
the tape in. D'Oh!


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## Otis B Driftwood (Apr 27, 2015)

mithesaint said:


> Depends on your location and basement.  I have a 70 pint dehumidifier that runs 24/7/365 or close to it.  I can actually watch the electric meter spin...anyway, any dehumidification that comes as the result of heating water is very very valuable.



We could definitely use that. We stopped running the dehummer a coupla years 
back when we saw the spikes were attributed to it. Yeah, I know: Get One already.


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## Brian26 (Jun 14, 2015)

For those close to CT. Energize CT is giving the $400 rebate instantly on Geosprings at lowes now. You could essentially drive from New York and buy one in CT. Energize CT is subsidized through CT electrical users as a separate charge. Cree led bulbs are also significantly reduced.

I have had mine for 2 years now and its been fine. I have saved a fortune in electrical costs over my former conventional electric tank. 500 watt heat pump vs 4500 watt elements plus it dehumidifies my basement.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jun 14, 2015)

I like the dehumidification part but id only use it in the summer ,in winter i need a humidifier around here ,it gets down to 25% humidity and my hot water comes from standby heat from my solid fuel boiler.


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## velvetfoot (Jun 14, 2015)

I don't know, maybe it makes my basement less humid, but maybe not relatively speaking, since it also cools it off.  I have to look more closely at the thermometers and humidimeters (?)


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## STIHLY DAN (Jun 14, 2015)

velvetfoot said:


> I don't know, maybe it makes my basement less humid, but maybe not relatively speaking, since it also cools it off.  I have to look more closely at the thermometers and humidimeters (?)



If you are pumping water out then you are dehumidifying . Mine pumps out more than 3 gal a day, from the air.


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## velvetfoot (Jun 14, 2015)

But cooler air holds less water.


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## seige101 (Jun 14, 2015)

Brian26 said:


> For those close to CT. Energize CT is giving the $400 rebate instantly on Geosprings at lowes now. You could essentially drive from New York and buy one in CT. Energize CT is subsidized through CT electrical users as a separate charge. Cree led bulbs are also significantly reduced.
> 
> I have had mine for 2 years now and its been fine. I have saved a fortune in electrical costs over my former conventional electric tank. 500 watt heat pump vs 4500 watt elements plus it dehumidifies my basement.



I may or may not have bought one in CT for 799 and then applied for the mass save $750 mail in rebate.


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## woodgeek (Jun 15, 2015)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I like the dehumidification part but id only use it in the summer ,in winter i need a humidifier around here ,it gets down to 25% humidity and my hot water comes from standby heat from my solid fuel boiler.



It won't dehumidify in the winter.  It would just cool.


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## Ashful (Jun 15, 2015)

woodgeek said:


> It won't dehumidify in the winter.  It would just cool.


Exactly.  HP will work to bring dew point down to evaporator coil temp.  If dew point is already below that temp, as it may be at 25% RH, then no dehumidification will occur.  However, if any air exchange between utility room and living space, it will fight your attempts to humidify.


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## velvetfoot (Jun 15, 2015)

Okay, right now it's 70F/66% upstairs and 61F/74% in the basement.  Took a shower a little while ago and the Nyletherm is still running.  
Maybe there's a chart I can find somewhere, not sure what it's called, that shows relative vs. absolute humidity, saturation temps, or whatever.
My point is that it might be cooling off the basement more than it would be, since it's already cool down there, and the relative humidity goes up even while moisture is being removed.


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