# How Do You Start When Cold (no coals)?



## velvetfoot (Feb 12, 2014)

With my insert, I use a little fire starter square and I'm good to go.  With a gassifier, can you just pile in the wood, stick a fire starter square down as low as you can reach, light it and close the door?  With a lamda boiler, could you then just hit the button and walk away?


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## henfruit (Feb 12, 2014)

Cardboard, Kindling, Small splits, Fill the fire box full with large splits. Take propane torch up through the nozzle for 30 seconds. Close all the doors hit the control button to on. Walk away, see you in 12 hours for the next filling. There may be times as this am when there are embers. Then same as above just skip the torch.


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## velvetfoot (Feb 12, 2014)

Farting around with cardboard and kindling and small splits each time when starting a fire from scratch is not attractive.


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## flyingcow (Feb 12, 2014)

For me a little different, lay kindin' down( 6 to 8 pieces), throw in  a few crumpled up newspapers and light. Hit the fan switch. Go load wheel barrow up with wood and then fill the boiler.


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## Fred61 (Feb 12, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> Farting around with cardboard and kindling and small splits each time when starting a fire from scratch is not attractive.


Then burning propane or oil is for you!


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## velvetfoot (Feb 12, 2014)

Fred61 said:


> Then burning propane or oil is for you!



Hey, I've started many a fire from total scratch in my insert by just putting in a Rutland fire starter square at the bottom of a pile of splits.  My wood is dry and not split big.  Never a problem.  Can't see why same thing can't be done here.  Would smoke escape somehow?  The doors are gasketed, right?


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## maple1 (Feb 12, 2014)

I don't think the materials required or used will be that much different than what you'd be using now in lighting an insert.

Procedure used with them, maybe a little bit different depending on the individual units & what you do now. I light mine with bypass open, which is all updraft. As soon as there is fire established (5 minutes?), the bypass gets closed then it's all downdraft. So I light from bottom with crumpled newspaper & kindling on top (sparked with a propane torch) & bypass open, then 5 minutes later fill half full with smaller splits & close bypass. Reload full a half hour later. Oooops, forgot one thing - very first thing I light is another ball of newspaper on top of everything to get my natural draft going. With an induced draft unit, that wouldn't be necessary.

If anything, the combustion blower - forced or induced - on 95% of gassifiers should help with fire lighting, over lighting an insert. I would think.

EDIT: Typed too slow again. I don't have any gaskets at all on mine - but yes most do.


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## velvetfoot (Feb 12, 2014)

Yeah, I forgot about the bypass being updraft as well as getting the draft going in the right direction with a cold chimney.  Inducer mandatory, for me anyway, I think.

Theoretically, in my non-actual-experience head, maybe the fire starter method would work, but might be slower and less of a sure thing than the kindling and cardboard on the bottom/propane torch from underneath method.


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## flyingcow (Feb 12, 2014)

my unit does not have a bypass. just hit the button in your done with it. And I think most lambda boilers are the same way?


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## flyingcow (Feb 12, 2014)

no need for a draft inducer either.


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## velvetfoot (Feb 12, 2014)

Maybe not.  Far as I can tell, your unit has an induced draft fan.  Maybe that's why you don't need the bypass?  The unit I'm considering has a forced draft fan.


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## flyingcow (Feb 12, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> Maybe not.  Far as I can tell, your unit has an induced draft fan.  Maybe that's why you don't need the bypass?  The unit I'm considering has a forced draft fan.




Correct


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## Coal Reaper (Feb 12, 2014)

i dont even use my bypass to start.  i only open it when reloading IF there is active flames on the splits.  i have my fan shut off when the flu temp is about 140*C.  this leaves enough coals for the next fire, even if they are cold.  i either toss a handfull of noodles on the coals or touch them with torch.  no kindling unless its the first fire after a thorough cleaning, once a week during winter.  even then i pick out a few pieces of coal from the ashes to get the next fire kicking.  if there is interest i can try to put together a quick video when i get some time.  wasnt able to find much on the youtubes other than froling.  i believe my process is even easier.  you can be the judge...


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## velvetfoot (Feb 12, 2014)

That'd be great.


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## muncybob (Feb 12, 2014)

If I have some charcoal above the nozzle I throw wood in and hit it the charcoal inside the firebox with the propane(mapp) torch for about 15 seconds and away it goes. If no charcoal I'll throw some small splits in there and get them going with the torch(maybe a minute or so) and then add the big stuff. I imagine the fire starter would work too but I save them for the outdoor pit.


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## velvetfoot (Feb 12, 2014)

Key seems to be to use propane torch from below.


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## avc8130 (Feb 12, 2014)

You guys keep answering with "coals".  This man wants to start with NO coals.  

For me, I throw some cardboard in that I was going to recycle anyways.  Then I grab some of the smallest splits I have (realize I do not "make" kindling, just whatever happens to be smallest in the pile).  These are usually ~4". Then I touch off the cardboard with the propane torch and the forced draft carries it from there.  Pile on the real splits (6-9") and go upstairs and sit in the warm house. 

ac


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## Coal Reaper (Feb 12, 2014)

NO coals?  or NO HOT coals?  are COLD coals acceptable?  the only time i ever had NO coals was the very first fire ever in my boiler.


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## kopeck (Feb 12, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> Key seems to be to use propane torch from below.



Nah.  Maybe other boiler are higher up then mine but laying on the ground to start a fire doesn't work for me.

I light mine from the top.

Two smallish spits in covering the nozzle, a little bit of kindling on top of that (not much at all) then two balls of newspaper on top of that.  hit the reset button, add fire, close door walk away for 30 seconds.  When I come back I have a nice little fire going.  Throw another smallish spit on top, go grab an arm full of wood and load 'er up!

K


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## maple1 (Feb 12, 2014)

avc8130 said:


> You guys keep answering with "coals".  This man wants to start with NO coals.
> 
> For me, I throw some cardboard in that I was going to recycle anyways.  Then I grab some of the smallest splits I have (realize I do not "make" kindling, just whatever happens to be smallest in the pile).  These are usually ~4". Then I touch off the cardboard with the propane torch and the forced draft carries it from there.  Pile on the real splits (6-9") and go upstairs and sit in the warm house.
> 
> ac


 
Whaddya mean 'you guys'? I didn't say anything about coals.


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## huffdawg (Feb 12, 2014)

Throw some kindling in then fill upper chamber with splits,  light from secondary chamber  with map gas torch.   Close bypass damper then press start.    EEzey PEEzy.


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## skfire (Feb 12, 2014)

THAT IS HOW ITS DONE


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## henfruit (Feb 12, 2014)

Why go back and fill after a  few minutes? Fill it once and be done. I have something better than kindling, wood chips from mill, ends of the pine boards are run through a chipper. They are kiln dried, one small shovel full over the nozzle and off to the races.


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## maple1 (Feb 12, 2014)

I get better results only loading a small part load at startup and then loading full a half hour later, than I did when I lit with a full load of fuel. Might be a nature of my beast - just seems to build a good fire faster at first with the small part load.

Although it has been a long time since I've done that - maybe I'll try it again sometime for the heck of it.

Why relight again after 12 hours? That's two fires in one day. Why not do it all in one burn with a re-load on a hot bed & refractory after 3 or 4 hours? That's only one fire a day.

Just goes to show the flexibility that storage allows - usually more than one schedule and procedure set to skin these cats with...


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## velvetfoot (Feb 12, 2014)

Coal Reaper said:


> are COLD coals acceptable




Yes.


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## Coal Reaper (Feb 12, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> Yes.


 take that AVC!


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## skfire (Feb 12, 2014)

Coal Reaper said:


> NO coals?  or NO HOT coals?  are COLD coals acceptable?  the only time i ever had NO coals was the very first fire ever in my boiler.



ditto

but no torch needed......really(for the boiler). 

no coals break in fire is simple, a few small splits(2"-3" wide), a piece of cardboard over them, then regular splits on top, ball up some newspaper and light through lighting door and then fan on, closed doors after 2 minutes or so.
If coals, just throw splits on bed and 90% of the time no lighting needed(2 fires a day),

SK


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## Coal Reaper (Feb 12, 2014)

maple1 said:


> I get better results only loading a small part load at startup and then loading full a half hour later, than I did when I lit with a full load of fuel. Might be a nature of my beast - just seems to build a good fire faster at first with the small part load.
> 
> Although it has been a long time since I've done that - maybe I'll try it again sometime for the heck of it.
> 
> ...


 sometimes i do, mostly on the weekends.  weekdays i am in the barn to get my truck in the morning and again to tuck her in at night, so every 12 hours fits my schedule 5/7 days.  also, if something comes up after work and i stop on the way home, i know the house will not go cold cuz I DID have a fire 12 hours ago and have more BTUs to run on.  AHH, STORAGE...
put it this way.  starting a fire while in the barn already is less inconvienient than making a special trip out there to reload hours after lighting.  the act of starting a fire in itself is probably equal for those guys that merely need to walk down a flight of stairs to the basement to reload.


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## henfruit (Feb 12, 2014)

maple1 said:


> Why relight again after 12 hours? That's two fires in one day. Why not do it all in one burn with a re-load on a hot bed & refractory after 3 or 4 hours?


 

From 0 to 30 I need two fires a day to keep my home warm.


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## 91LMS (Feb 12, 2014)

wish i could afford to let it go out, lol


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## avc8130 (Feb 12, 2014)

Coal Reaper said:


> take that AVC!



Apparently.  Keep changing the parameters and everyone can be happy.

Either way, starting these boilers is simple.  

Forced draft.  Love it.

ac


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## velvetfoot (Feb 12, 2014)

Well, it's all good then!


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## hobbyheater (Feb 12, 2014)

The Jetstream is a much older clean burning technology with a very large refractory component .It depends a lot on how long it has been between firings how it is lit . For firings that are only 24 hours apart  put 3 lbs of kindling into the bottom of the burn chamber the paper on top of the kindling light the paper turn the draft inducer on leave the loading door ajar when the kindling has been reduced to coals ( about 5 minutes )add a full charge of wood close the loading door and the forced draft kicks in and its away .When firings get up to 14 days between firings in  the  summer month for DHW supply  the lighting sequence  becomes a little more prolonged . To allow the refractory to warm up gradually I may go through 3 or 4 batches of kindling before adding full charge of wood then still running on just the draft inducer until I can hear gasification taking place then shut the loading door and going to full forced combustion. Sounds tedious but I get a lot of satisfaction out of how many years that I have been able to get out of the refractory 30 + years and counting .When the boiler has sat 2 weeks or more it is possible to have the boiler to full gasification with in 5 minutes , but when I clean out the bottom of the burn chamber for the next fire  there will be small bits of refractory in the  ash . Your modern types make it sound so easy !


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## flyingcow (Feb 12, 2014)

avc8130 said:


> You guys keep answering with "coals".  This man wants to start with NO coals.
> 
> For me, I throw some cardboard in that I was going to recycle anyways.  Then I grab some of the smallest splits I have (realize I do not "make" kindling, just whatever happens to be smallest in the pile).  These are usually ~4". Then I touch off the cardboard with the propane torch and the forced draft carries it from there.  Pile on the real splits (6-9") and go upstairs and sit in the warm house.
> 
> ac




what do you have for a boiler?


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## BoilerMan (Feb 12, 2014)

avc8130 said:


> Apparently.  Keep changing the parameters and everyone can be happy.
> 
> Either way, starting these boilers is simple.
> 
> ...


Yes, I own both an EPA stove (in LR) and have owned and operated several stoves and wood-boilers in the past.  I can honestly say that an induced draught boiler is truly the easiest thing to get going. 

I use no cardboard, newspaper, kindling....just rake the cold charcoal from yesterday's fire over the nozzle, stack a split on that charcoal, and fill to the brim with whatever you want.  Light through the nozzle from the lower chamber close it all up and walk away.

TS


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## BoilerMan (Feb 12, 2014)

flyingcow said:


> what do you have for a boiler?


Wasn't there something about fire gremlins in the wood-gun?

TS


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## Fred61 (Feb 12, 2014)

BoilerMan said:


> Yes, I own both an EPA stove (in LR) and have owned and operated several stoves and wood-boilers in the past.  I can honestly say that an induced draught boiler is truly the easiest thing to get going.
> 
> I use no cardboard, newspaper, kindling....just rake the cold charcoal from yesterday's fire over the nozzle, stack a split on that charcoal, and fill to the brim with whatever you want.  Light through the nozzle from the lower chamber close it all up and walk away.
> 
> TS


You just described my lighting procedure to a T only I have forced draft. Looking like if you use the correct procedure the type of draft isn't a factor in the procedure.


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## velvetfoot (Feb 12, 2014)

Key also seems to be charcoal, cold or not.


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## Fred61 (Feb 12, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> Key also seems to be charcoal, cold or not.


Right on!


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## flyingcow (Feb 12, 2014)

I don't have coals after a burn. Maybe I'll look closer, but I don't think i can restart without a bit of kindlin'. I do one fire a day.


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## hobbyheater (Feb 12, 2014)

Picture of lighting the Jetstream.


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## Fred61 (Feb 12, 2014)

I also do one fire per day. Just went down and shut down the boiler while there was still a large amount of glowing charcoal. Hopefully there will be a half dozen one inch pieces buried in the ash that I can stir out when I go down to start the boiler tomorrow. I don't worry about making creosote when the wood is burned down that far.


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## ewdudley (Feb 12, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> Key also seems to be charcoal, cold or not.


Having some charcoal to start with really makes re-starting easy and gets gasification going very fast.  

Some just use a timer to shut the draft fan off while there's still plenty of coals left.  It's pretty easy to guess within a half hour or so when to stop the fan.

Or you can use a flue gas temperature sensor to tell when to shut down.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/timer-for-boiler-fan.103569/

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/end-of-burn-draft-fan-shutdown-control.73405/


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## hiker88 (Feb 12, 2014)

I put in a full load of regular wood, stuff the lighting door area full of newspaper, and light the paper.  When flu gases get to 120c, I close the lighting door and then close the safety door.

The first fire after a cleaning in which I have removed all the ashes from the primary and secondary, this will take about four to five minutes.  A normal fire with ash from the previous burn will take about two.  I do not use cardboard or kindling, but I do have a blow torch to light my newspaper.


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## kopeck (Feb 13, 2014)

flyingcow said:


> I don't have coals after a burn. Maybe I'll look closer, but I don't think i can restart without a bit of kindlin'. I do one fire a day.




Ditto.  Maybe a few clinkers but that's it, just a bunch of ash.

I kind of start form scratch each fire.

K


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## velvetfoot (Feb 13, 2014)

kopeck said:


> Ditto.  Maybe a few clinkers but that's it, just a bunch of ash.
> 
> I kind of start form scratch each fire.
> 
> K


Having it reduced to ash would also be a blessing compared to the coal management I'm saddled with when cranking the insert in the cold weather.


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## timberr (Feb 13, 2014)

SKFire,

Did you pick that fire starter up at HomeDepot or Lowes  Maybe my wife might let me get one for Valentines day.


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## flyingcow (Feb 13, 2014)

kopeck said:


> Ditto.  Maybe a few clinkers but that's it, just a bunch of ash.
> 
> I kind of start form scratch each fire.
> 
> K




I may put my Innova down in my truck garage. And put a Froling (if i get a favorable price out of Chris Hoskins, hint,hint). But i have been talking a little with one of the guys at Tarm. Where thats Lambda controled unit, it shuts off the air once the fire is out. And I should have enough coals/clinkers for a restart without kindlin'.


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## skfire (Feb 13, 2014)

timberr said:


> SKFire,
> 
> Did you pick that fire starter up at HomeDepot or Lowes  Maybe my wife might let me get one for Valentines day.



Excellent..
best firestarter EVER..
I would ask my wife for asecond one.....imagine those babies in stereo...
but she has more weapons than I do...but I have the bunker down below....


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## Coal Reaper (Feb 26, 2014)

Brace yourselves, video uploading...


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## Coal Reaper (Feb 26, 2014)

been busy with life, finally had a chance to put this together.  there is about twice as many coals than i usually have. it had been low on the amount of coals left after a burn this week since i cleaned it last so yesterday I turned the fan shutoff temp a little higher, too high.  excuse the chitty camera skills.  this did take a little longer than normal due to not only juggling the camera, but my son as well.  he just wants to get right in and do everything dad does.


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## arngnick (Feb 28, 2014)

Coal Reaper said:


> been busy with life, finally had a chance to put this together.  there is about twice as many coals than i usually have. it had been low on the amount of coals left after a burn this week since i cleaned it last so yesterday I turned the fan shutoff temp a little higher, too high.  excuse the chitty camera skills.  this did take a little longer than normal due to not only juggling the camera, but my son as well.  he just wants to get right in and do everything dad does.



Love my vedolux!!


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## BrotherBart (Feb 28, 2014)

Try a chunk of Super Cedar and you will never go back.


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## GENECOP (Mar 1, 2014)

We have a Pallet company around the corner, they discard hardwood blocks mostly, one milk crate of blocks on bottom, one dura flame starter, 6-7 blocks on top, followed by splits, then rounds, light, walk away......


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## fuelfarmer (Mar 1, 2014)

I click on the box with the green check mark.


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## Karl_northwind (Mar 1, 2014)

skfire said:


> THAT IS HOW ITS DONE


Is that the new Froeling automatic lighting system?


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## skfire (Mar 3, 2014)

Karl_northwind said:


> Is that the new Froeling automatic lighting system?


I especially like the twin build in bladder tanks....


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## Woodman37 (Mar 4, 2014)

I use those fire starter sticks available at any store. Take one break it in half light it put one in front and one in rear of firebox. From there I stack small dry splits cross ways to allow for air flow. Then usually by the time I go upstairs for another beer she's flaming up pretty good.


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