# RE: French Drains . . . and other stuff



## firefighterjake (Aug 20, 2017)

A few questions . . .


My garage (poured slab with a 6-8 inch footer on top has water coming in after a heavy rain or in the Spring when the snow melts.

My plan is to dig down to the bottom of the exterior of the pad, repair any cracks and then apply some sort of water repellant (suggestions?).

I figure a French drain running along the perimeter may also help. 

Question: How far out should the French drain be positioned?

Question: How far down should the French drain be located?

Right now my trench is approximately 1 1/2 feet wide from the pad out . . . and about 12 feet deep.


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## Doc C (Aug 20, 2017)

firefighterjake said:


> A few questions . . .
> 
> 
> My garage (poured slab with a 6-8 inch footer on top has water coming in after a heavy rain or in the Spring when the snow melts.
> ...



I don't understand why your trench would be 12 feet deep???

I've done many french drains over the years. Owned a landscaping business for several years and that was part of what we did.

1. Dig down carefully to expose the concrete. Preferably down to the footings. Consider hiring someone for this part mainly for the insurance coverage. If you do it yourself, stay back with the machine a foot or two and clean the walls up with a flat shovel. 

2. Waterproof. Find whatever you can in bulk but make sure it's system that you use some sort of protective board over the top. 

3. The most effective way to do a French drain is to place it about level with footing if ground water is the problem or about 1-2' down if surface water is the problem, if going to footings stay just barely above because by the time you slope it around the garage you don't want the drain to be below the footing and you want to leave the dirt the footing is sitting on undisturbed through the whole process. Make sure you hold a couple inches high all the way around. 

4. Use black corrugated pipe with the fabric already on it. It needs to be placed on undisturbed soil that is preferably gently compacted, think hand tamper, not machines. I'm always extra careful around foundations and slabs. Slope your pipe minimum 1%. I like a little more if I have the room.

5. Find gravel. I like 3/4" to 1" with NO FINES. I  can't stress that enough. Had to fix a drain someone else did because the fines were clogging the fabric around the pipe. Also had to fix another drain that they used schedule 40 with no holes?!?!?!?!

6. Backfill

7. Slope dirt away from garage all the way around.

8. Drink adult beverage of your choice and wait for a big rain snow to melt.

I just realized you said slab. Assuming 4" slab. Everything above applies. As long as you have room for your pipe to be underground without digging below the slab. 

Others might say it's OK to dig below the slab or foundation but when my insurance is on the line I would rather be safe.


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## firefighterjake (Aug 21, 2017)

Heh Heh . . . I meant to write 12 inches . . . about level with the pad.

Thanks for the response Doc .  .. this was quite helpful.


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## sportbikerider78 (Aug 21, 2017)

I did a french drain around my property...quite extensive (1000+feet) and it is working quite well. 

I used 4" pvc with holes pre-drilled.  I used this because if there is a clog, you can send a snake up it w/o it destroying anything.  You can't do that with the corrugated. 

Dig your trench.  Lay down some washed #2.  Lay in your fabric (make sure it is geotextile, not some garbage landscape fabric).  I used 3' wide.  
More #2 stone.  
Now wrap the stone and pipe up and top with at least 6" more stone. 

Some top with top soil.  I prefer to keep vegetation away to discourage roots from growing.


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## Doc C (Aug 21, 2017)

In a properly designed French drain system with the right size rock and the rock ran out to the end of the pipe, the pipe will be the last resort for water to head out. You will see water flowing out the drain, in that 1-2" of rock you have the pipe sitting on, and then when the water level rises it will enter the pipe and flow out.

Most the drains I have had to fix over the years have been because the person that did the work used dirt and not rock to fill in the drain.

The one I had to fix with schedule 40 had no holes drilled in it. I dont see how drilling holes in the white pipe will be as adequate as using the heavy duty corrugated pipe made for French drains but with that said I don't know for sure as I have never repaired a system like that or installed one. Although it does seem like it could work and as stated above does seem to be working.

Also I'm not talking the cheap black corrugated pipe with the cheap fabric on it. That can work but it doesn't seem as reliable. Quite frankly on a drain that's only going to be 6-12" deep it would probably be fine if it's not driven on but there are better products out there.

Try googling NDS pipe. That's what I always try to use or something similiar. It is the black corrugated pipe with the fabric on it already. It's usually a white fabric and has some sort of poly like rock in it. The manufacturer claims that it can used without gravel.....I wouldn't do that. Knowing how a drain actually works in real life I treat the pipe as the last layer of protection for the water to flow through.


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## johneh (Aug 21, 2017)

This the way we do it in Canada 
But we call it weeping tile
http://www.aquaguardinjection.com/b...og/weeping-tile-installation-the-fundamentals
This tells you What ,wear,how and why


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## firefighterjake (Aug 22, 2017)

Logged on this morning to ask a few questions . . . and one was already answered (whether to use gravel or rock around the pipe.)

I took some hydraulic cement and mortar that I had left over from past projects and patched up the seam/cracks where the footing meets the pad on one side of the garage yesterday evening . . . and started trenching the other side to see how the footing/pad looks.

There are a dizzying array of products to coat the concrete with . . . any personal recommendations? 

Also, I'm seeing signs of efforescence . . . inside and outside. Is there any product I should use on the inside to help stop this?

Thanks again to everyone for the advice.


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## sportbikerider78 (Aug 22, 2017)

firefighterjake said:


> Also, I'm seeing signs of efforescence . . . inside and outside. Is there any product I should use on the inside to help stop this?
> 
> Thanks again to everyone for the advice.



I have no experience on your other questions, so I will not comment.  

Efflorescence is due to hydrostatic pressure from the outside.  You are going about this properly to prevent the pressure by getting rid of the water.  With a good drain and good coating on the outside, you should be covered.


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## sportbikerider78 (Aug 22, 2017)

Doc C said:


> In a properly designed French drain system with the right size rock and the rock ran out to the end of the pipe, the pipe will be the last resort for water to head out. You will see water flowing out the drain, in that 1-2" of rock you have the pipe sitting on, and then when the water level rises it will enter the pipe and flow out.
> 
> Most the drains I have had to fix over the years have been because the person that did the work used dirt and not rock to fill in the drain.
> 
> ...



There are certainly more than one way to skin this cat.  No doubt about it.  

I did not use schedule 40...which is quite expensive.  I used this product from home depot.  It was about $1/ft when I bought it.  Schedule 40 is at least double to triple the price if you include fittings.  These come with fittings.  

The price varies from state to state by about 30%.  Weird.  
http://www.homedepot.com/p/4-in-x-10-ft-2-Hole-Triplewall-Pipe-4520010/100191022


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## Doc C (Aug 22, 2017)

firefighterjake said:


> Logged on this morning to ask a few questions . . . and one was already answered (whether to use gravel or rock around the pipe.)
> 
> I took some hydraulic cement and mortar that I had left over from past projects and patched up the seam/cracks where the footing meets the pad on one side of the garage yesterday evening . . . and started trenching the other side to see how the footing/pad looks.
> 
> ...



I have always had waterproofing companies come out that have access to bulk water proofing systems and spray the concrete after I prepped in and then they would put a protective board depending on the system. Once that was done I would build a French drain.

I have used redguard on showers in my personal house with great success. My be worth doing some research and seeing if redguard is acceptable for outside use in this situation. Also drylock is another brand I have heard of people using with decent success but I thought that it was designed for interior use and that would not be the best way in your situation. But worth some research.

I wish I could be of more help but having not used any of the products designed for smaller projects in this application I am not sure what would be best.


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## firefighterjake (Aug 22, 2017)

Doc C said:


> I have always had waterproofing companies come out that have access to bulk water proofing systems and spray the concrete after I prepped in and then they would put a protective board depending on the system. Once that was done I would build a French drain.
> 
> I have used redguard on showers in my personal house with great success. My be worth doing some research and seeing if redguard is acceptable for outside use in this situation. Also drylock is another brand I have heard of people using with decent success but I thought that it was designed for interior use and that would not be the best way in your situation. But worth some research.
> 
> I wish I could be of more help but having not used any of the products designed for smaller projects in this application I am not sure what would be best.



Trust me on this Doc . . . between you and Sportbike . . . you guys have helped me out immensely.

After checking out the various products I think I'll be going with a product from Lowes -- Black Jack rubber with fiber (#57) as it seems like the product will meet my needs as I am hoping to put it on the outside and inside of the garage footing as I find myself wondering if the snow/salt melt in the winter is affecting the concrete footings from the inside along with water penetration from the outside with rain and Spring snow melt.

I also checked out the NDS pipe . . . very cool stuff, but expensive. I figure I'll see what the price of buying a pre-sleeved corrugated pipe will cost me (along with the price of rock) and then get an idea of whether it would be worth doing the NDS pipe with the poly-rocks or go the conventional route.


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## Doc C (Aug 22, 2017)

firefighterjake said:


> Trust me on this Doc . . . between you and Sportbike . . . you guys have helped me out immensely.
> 
> After checking out the various products I think I'll be going with a product from Lowes -- Black Jack rubber with fiber (#57) as it seems like the product will meet my needs as I am hoping to put it on the outside and inside of the garage footing as I find myself wondering if the snow/salt melt in the winter is affecting the concrete footings from the inside along with water penetration from the outside with rain and Spring snow melt.
> 
> I also checked out the NDS pipe . . . very cool stuff, but expensive. I figure I'll see what the price of buying a pre-sleeved corrugated pipe will cost me (along with the price of rock) and then get an idea of whether it would be worth doing the NDS pipe with the poly-rocks or go the conventional route.



I forgot about blackjack. My father in law is a roofer and uses that stuff on some flat roof repairs I think. 

NDS pipe is going to more expensive for sure then the black pipe and bulk rock. Just keep in mind the the corrugated pipe you are talking about will do the job. It's just not really load bearing I don't think and it can be damaged pretty easy. Just keep that in mind during and after your install and you will probably be fine. I have never had a drain clog although I have heard of several but like sport bike brought up it may be damaged if you ever have to clean it out. 

Good luck!


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## Doc C (Aug 22, 2017)

firefighterjake said:


> Trust me on this Doc . . . between you and Sportbike . . . you guys have helped me out immensely.
> 
> After checking out the various products I think I'll be going with a product from Lowes -- Black Jack rubber with fiber (#57) as it seems like the product will meet my needs as I am hoping to put it on the outside and inside of the garage footing as I find myself wondering if the snow/salt melt in the winter is affecting the concrete footings from the inside along with water penetration from the outside with rain and Spring snow melt.
> 
> I also checked out the NDS pipe . . . very cool stuff, but expensive. I figure I'll see what the price of buying a pre-sleeved corrugated pipe will cost me (along with the price of rock) and then get an idea of whether it would be worth doing the NDS pipe with the poly-rocks or go the conventional route.



Oh and please if you do decide to go with the NDS still use rock. I may be wrong but I don't think the poly rock should take the place of no rock at all. It doesn't seem right and I think you will be better off with rock as well. And as cheap as rock is by the yard of you have a truck it's not worth doing it without. 

I can buy washed 3/4"-1" rock for about $28 a yard in my area.


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## firefighterjake (Aug 22, 2017)

Doc C said:


> I forgot about blackjack. My father in law is a roofer and uses that stuff on some flat roof repairs I think.
> 
> NDS pipe is going to more expensive for sure then the black pipe and bulk rock. Just keep in mind the the corrugated pipe you are talking about will do the job. It's just not really load bearing I don't think and it can be damaged pretty easy. Just keep that in mind during and after your install and you will probably be fine. I have never had a drain clog although I have heard of several but like sport bike brought up it may be damaged if you ever have to clean it out.
> 
> Good luck!



I'm planning on laying the trench/pipe to the sides of the garage and house where it should receive little to no traffic . . . other than foot traffic and maybe my ATV as I plow the side when the snow flies.


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## Doc C (Aug 22, 2017)

firefighterjake said:


> I'm planning on laying the trench/pipe to the sides of the garage and house where it should receive little to no traffic . . . other than foot traffic and maybe my ATV as I plow the side when the snow flies.


 
How do you like plowing with an ATV? My driveway is about 1/4 mile long, flat, straight, but I have one area that gets drifts up to about 3' if I don't keep up on it.

I live in Northern Idaho and I'm guessing that's comparable to Maine snow wise. Lots of snow! Average storms are probably 4"-18" at a time. 

I am picking up a 2017 Polaris 570 next week and was thinking a plow might be a good idea. I have been using an old chevy truck with a plow but I need to dump aboit $5000 into it to make it reliable and I don't know if it's worth it.


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## semipro (Aug 23, 2017)

I'd add to what's been shared by suggesting strongly that you always separate gravel from soil with filter fabric, whether the soil lies above or below the gravel.  Its cheap insurance. Any time your soil is in contact with the gravel there's the potential for the the soil to fill the pore spaces causing clogging and subsidence.  I also 2nd the suggestion to use the smooth interior PVC rather than corrugated.  

Also, gutters downspouts should not connect with french drains if possible. 
And, an water impervious material (like roofing underlayment) can be buried next to, and sloped away from, the slab to further clear water away from the structure, though this is typically done adjacent to basements.


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## Doc C (Aug 23, 2017)

semipro said:


> I'd add to what's been shared by suggesting strongly that you always separate gravel from soil with filter fabric, whether the soil lies above or below the gravel.  Its cheap insurance. Any time your soil is in contact with the gravel there's the potential for the the soil to fill the pore spaces causing clogging and subsidence.  I also 2nd the suggestion to use the smooth interior PVC rather than corrugated.
> 
> Also, gutters downspouts should not connect with french drains if possible.
> And, any water impervious material (like roofing underlayment) can be buried next to, and sloped away from, the slab to further clear water away from the structure, though this is typically done adjacent to basements.



That's actually a good point about the gutters. If they can't be run easily to a slope that heads away from the garage then I have built dry wells in the past. Simply dig a decent size hole usually 4-5' around and down far enough to get past the frost line, fill with the same rock you use for your drain, run gutter downs spout to it and call it good. Preferably several feet away from your French drain. And you HAVE to go below the frost line.

But if you are like us and your garage roof is metal then we do not use gutters because we would have to replace them after every winter.


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## Dobish (Aug 23, 2017)

Funny, I was just about to start digging a french drain for our cottage. The other day it poured for about 2 hour straight, and i happened to notice water coming through the floor. We just had tenants move out, and we were in there cleaning, which is the only reason I noticed (i don't go in there often). The last time this happened, it was because the gutter was disconnected, so I went outside to look. Gutter was connected, but the rain was so heavy that it wasn't even going into the gutter!  The rain was pooling up outside and seeping through the concrete blocks!

I have been waiting to finish up a few projects, but I was going to dig a trench and lay down a french drain (we also have another gutter that sort of runs into that area as well, so I was just going to bury them both together).  I have had good luck with french drains, especially here where the water hits the ground and starts running before the ground softens, and we get large pools. 

I have another spot on the front of my house that I needed to come up with a creative solution, since the gutter downspout went into concrete, then would pour right down the side of the house, then into the basement. That was super fun!  I finally ended up connecting a number of pieces under the deck, and then doing a french drain away from the house.


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## firefighterjake (Aug 23, 2017)

Doc C said:


> How do you like plowing with an ATV? My driveway is about 1/4 mile long, flat, straight, but I have one area that gets drifts up to about 3' if I don't keep up on it.
> 
> I live in Northern Idaho and I'm guessing that's comparable to Maine snow wise. Lots of snow! Average storms are probably 4"-18" at a time.
> 
> I am picking up a 2017 Polaris 570 next week and was thinking a plow might be a good idea. I have been using an old chevy truck with a plow but I need to dump aboit $5000 into it to make it reliable and I don't know if it's worth it.



It's good and bad . . . keeps my ATV moving in the winter instead of just sitting there and the plow set up is pretty reasonable.

The negative is you're exposed to the cold . . . it takes longer to do vs. plowing with a truck and you learn early on to push your snow banks way, way back since once the snow firms up those banks are there until Spring -- there's no moving them back later on.

I took a look at the Polaris 570 SP before buying a Yamaha Kodiak 700 EPS two weeks ago . . . they ride nicely and are nicely equipped.


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## firefighterjake (Aug 23, 2017)

Doc C said:


> That's actually a good point about the gutters. If they can't be run easily to a slope that heads away from the garage then I have built dry wells in the past. Simply dig a decent size hole usually 4-5' around and down far enough to get past the frost line, fill with the same rock you use for your drain, run gutter downs spout to it and call it good. Preferably several feet away from your French drain. And you HAVE to go below the frost line.
> 
> *But if you are like us and your garage roof is metal then we do not use gutters because we would have to replace them after every winter*.



Yup . . . no gutters on the house or garage . . . for that exact reason.

The Scene: Snow falling gently in the late afternoon or early evening in winter. The fire is crackling. The TV is on low. The cats have staked out their favorite sleeping spots.

WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHH!!

THUMMMMMMMMMPPPPPPPPPPPPPP . . . THUMMMMPPPPPPPPP . . . THUMMMMMPPPPPPP!

Cats scatter.


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## Buzz Saw (Aug 27, 2017)

Interesting read.  Here in Ohio we tile our farm fields with corrugated tile.  Never have we ever put stone/rocks down with the tile.  The tile guys used to use big trenches but now they use tile plows.  The only time we ever get dirt in the tile is if there is a hole in the tile(typically from a woodchuck).  I recently dug up a 50 year old corrugated tile and it had very little dirt in it.  I understand this is for around a building footer, but I thought  I would comment that dirt doesn't get into tiles that fast or extensively.

The only time we use limestone is around footers  and foundations. Tile at the footer then back fill with 57's and then 18" or so of dirt o n top.

There is also a smooth interior wall corrugated tile sold in 20' sticks that is rated for heavy loads. We usually use it for driveway crossings. 

I suppose what and how you do things is all dependant on soil type as well.



Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## sportbikerider78 (Aug 28, 2017)

firefighterjake said:


> Trust me on this Doc . . . between you and Sportbike . . . you guys have helped me out immensely.
> 
> After checking out the various products I think I'll be going with a product from Lowes -- Black Jack rubber with fiber (#57) as it seems like the product will meet my needs as I am hoping to put it on the outside and inside of the garage footing as I find myself wondering if the snow/salt melt in the winter is affecting the concrete footings from the inside along with water penetration from the outside with rain and Spring snow melt.
> 
> I also checked out the NDS pipe . . . very cool stuff, but expensive. I figure I'll see what the price of buying a pre-sleeved corrugated pipe will cost me (along with the price of rock) and then get an idea of whether it would be worth doing the NDS pipe with the poly-rocks or go the conventional route.



Post pics or it didn't happen! 

That way we can armchair quarterback you and feel a sense of superiority!


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## firefighterjake (Aug 29, 2017)

sportbikerider78 said:


> Post pics or it didn't happen!
> 
> That way we can armchair quarterback you and feel a sense of superiority!



This is probably a good idea.

I've dug out the pad and footings around the garage on the two sides where the snow slides off the roof and patched a couple of cracks and gaps with concrete -- mostly where the pad and footing come together (it almost looks like the footing's concrete wasn't as good a mix). I also repaired the badly spalled concrete footing inside the garage.

I've dug some trenches . . . going down to the base of the pad (not sure if I should actually dig down a bit further . . . I'm also unsure if I should have dug the trench so close to the pad -- I did so as I wanted to expose the pad and coat it with a damp-proof asphalt covering (something not done in my 1970s era built home and garage). Digging has been pretty easy since it's been a coarse gravel around the foundation with some sand as I went further out from the garage. 

Project for today or tomorrow is to apply the outside coating on the foundation . . . possibly a coating on the inside footing with Drylok paint. I've also got a load of stone coming this evening -- 6 yards of small stone (one inch or so). 

Based on everyone's recommendations and realization that working with the coiled up corrugated drainage pipe could a) be a pain to work with and b) would not be as crush-proof I bought the triple wall drainage, smooth drainage pipe. Figured it will cost me a bit more, but may work better in the long run. I did buy a reducer/adapter to switch to Schedule 40 3 inch pipe as one of my planned configurations will have me using the perforated pipe for 18 or so feet, taking a 45 degree angle and going out another 5 or so feet and then switching to the Schedule 40 for another 20-25 feet. I opted to do this as this spot is where I back up my truck loaded with firewood and figure the Schedule 40 might hold up better to the weight vs. the triple wall drainage.

After doing my "painting" and a little more interior concrete work (just a couple of spots) I'm hoping to lay out my pipe to make sure I have everything I need and check the angle of the dangle . . . then it will be time to glue it together and start shoveling stone.


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## sportbikerider78 (Aug 29, 2017)

Don't obsess over crushing the pipe.  It's all about weight distribution.  Keep some 3/4" plywood handy to distribute weight if you must do it.


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## Doc C (Aug 29, 2017)

firefighterjake said:


> This is probably a good idea.
> 
> I've dug out the pad and footings around the garage on the two sides where the snow slides off the roof and patched a couple of cracks and gaps with concrete -- mostly where the pad and footing come together (it almost looks like the footing's concrete wasn't as good a mix). I also repaired the badly spalled concrete footing inside the garage.
> 
> ...



Also don't stress about digging the dirt near the foundation to expose it. It has to be done and the dirt does not add any strength to the side of the concrete. Unless of course you have some sort of extremely inferior crumbly concrete but then you have even bigger problems. All your strength is pushing straight down. 

Also personally I do not disturb the ground below footings. Doesn't seem like a good idea. I have on rareoccasion dug a small like 6" or less trench under footing to run a pipe or conduit or something but that's rare and a last resort.

The guidelines for pouring footings in our area is either to be on undisturbed soil or compact the soil to a certain psi.


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## firefighterjake (Aug 29, 2017)

Gotta be serious here for a minute . . . thanks guys. Your advice on this topic is truly appreciated and is quite reassuring as I am the type to always obsess over things and imagine the worse happening. I started to think that digging down so close to the pad would lead to a catastrophic failure and in my mind pictured my garage collapsing in middle of the night after a heavy rain storm.

This is why I love this site so much . . . it's about woodstoves and heating with wood . . . but it really is about a community of folks getting together on line to offer up their experienced advice on a wide range of topics. It's almost as if we're gathering around the old woodstove at the general store and chewing the proverbial fat.


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## firefighterjake (Aug 29, 2017)

Here are some pics . . . if I can remember how to upload photos to this site.


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## firefighterjake (Aug 29, 2017)

Pic 1: View of my WRX parked in the garage . . . and view of a spade . . . and a really, really big rock that I could only move by hitching a tow strap to it and towing it with my ATV. Also a pic showing the trench I've dug in the alcove between the house, mudroom and garage and the termination point.

Pic 2: View of the garage on the alcove side. As you can see, even with the gravel this area gets quite wet . . . it doesn't help that snow from half of the garage roof and mudroom drops right here . . . or that the sun never reaches this area. Incidentally, the future plan is to replace the cedar shingles with something a little more durable.

Pic 3: I'm hoping to start off this French drain fairly close to the surface along the wall of the mudroom and then slope it down to where it will take a 90 degree turn and then a straight shot out to a low spot in the front lawn.

Pic 4: View of my "side" of the garage. I have little to no water penetration here (other than the crappy garage doors which will be changed out when we re-do the siding and windows -- this year we did the roof) . . . so I dug down 3 or 4 inches and sloped the gravel towards the sides where the French drains will be. I then filled this with rock and a bit of gravel on top. Before the gravel driveway was pretty much even with the garage pad . . .now there is a 1/4 to 1/2 inch lip. Also there is a view of the garage catbox . . . which I need to de-poo.

Pic 5: Did the same thing for my wife's "side" of the garage.

Pic 6: View of the garage side. This is where I had the most visible spalling damage inside. Since I didn't want to dig too far down along this 36 foot run I opted to run out to about half of the garage and then go out at a 45 degree angle towards a low spot in the side/back lawn. I also plan to run a drain from the halfway point in the garage to the back. The orange bucket in the picture is what I used to mix up small batches of patching cement. The propane cylinder partly in the picture is used for domestic hot water -- not for heating. If you look carefully you will see a few of my stacks of wood which are seasoning . . . along with some pallets used for stacking.

Pic 7: A view of the side showing the 45 degree angle. Interestingly enough I noticed that after going out about 6 or 7 feet I made a transition from gravel to sand.

Pic 8: View from the back of the garage looking back. Why is there a rain gutter in the picture you may ask yourself? What is FirefighterJake up to? Originally I was using the rain gutter to give me an idea of whether or not I was sloping the trench down. When I get ready to lay the pipe I plan to either use a  4 foot level or string level to better gauge the slope.

Pic 9: View of the side showing off my Nissan Titan . . . and a propane cylinder for my BBQ grill which I was going to fill this past weekend and forgot to do so.

Pic 10: Abigail Adams sleeping in a paper bag. Abby hails from Houston originally and was one of two kittens slated to be euthanized before my wife saw them on line and adopted them.


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## Doc C (Aug 29, 2017)

firefighterjake said:


> Pic 1: View of my WRX parked in the garage . . . and view of a spade . . . and a really, really big rock that I could only move by hitching a tow strap to it and towing it with my ATV. Also a pic showing the trench I've dug in the alcove between the house, mudroom and garage and the termination point.
> 
> Pic 2: View of the garage on the alcove side. As you can see, even with the gravel this area gets quite wet . . . it doesn't help that snow from half of the garage roof and mudroom drops right here . . . or that the sun never reaches this area. Incidentally, the future plan is to replace the cedar shingles with something a little more durable.
> 
> ...



String level is the ticket and just measure down from it as you go. Also I like to take a flat shovel and flatten out the bottom of the trench, use a hand tamper to make it hardish, then a thin layer of gravel, pipe with fabric around, fill with gravel, then slope everything away from the garage for drainage.


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## Doc C (Aug 29, 2017)

But good progress so far!


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## firefighterjake (Aug 29, 2017)

When you say "gravel" do you mean gravel or rock? Here in Maine gravel consists of sand, small and large rocks . . . whereas rock is . . . well . . . rock.


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## sportbikerider78 (Aug 29, 2017)

Nice progress by hand man!  Do you realize you can rent a mini-excavator for about $350/day?  If you rent on a Friday you can drop off on Monday and only pay 1 day rental.  You should pick one up for this holiday weekend and knock it out...and save your back. 

I realize this is not close to Bangor,,but just an example.  There might be places just as cheap locally.


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## sportbikerider78 (Aug 29, 2017)

firefighterjake said:


> When you say "gravel" do you mean gravel or rock? Here in Maine gravel consists of sand, small and large rocks . . . whereas rock is . . . well . . . rock.


No sand.  Only small 1"-3" rock.  It must be washed so fines don't plug up your geotextile.

Up here, washed number 2 stone gets you this.


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## firefighterjake (Aug 30, 2017)

Sportsbiker . . . digging was relatively easy since it was mostly gravel . . . plus there are some lines overhead and a septic line below that would have made it tricky in a spot or two if I was using mechanical means . . . plus . . . I'm cheap. 

Rock was delivered yesterday . . . it wasn't washed, but relatively clean . . . we have some rain in the forecast so I'm hoping that may help . . . I may also wash the rock myself before putting it down. I may have over-estimated how many yards I needed despite using the on line calculator . . . either that or the guy gave me a lot more than 6 yards.


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## sportbikerider78 (Aug 30, 2017)

No sweat.  Put it in the wheelbarrow and hose it off. 

For my projected, I had 2 entire truckloads. Washing it myself was not an option.

Just remember...injuries are expensive.  $400 goes reallllllll quick if you are going to a back specialist.


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## firefighterjake (Aug 31, 2017)

Spent the afternoon slathering on asphalt coating on the two exposed side walls where I am putting the French drains . . . thought about putting some on the rear of the garage, but most of the snow comes off the sides and I do not believe water penetration is a a problem there. 

This was a rather messy job . . . made the mistake of wearing one of my favorite T shirts . . . hopefully the stain stick and an extra long wash can remove the tarry mess. Me . . . I am more or less clean after using some gasoline to clean off and then showering with a bar of Lava soap.

Sadly I have to put on a second coat in another 24 to 48 hours.


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## firefighterjake (Sep 5, 2017)

Bonjour mes amis (yes . . . it has been many, many, many years since my high school French class and admittedly I did not do all that well.)

Thought I should give folks an update.

After the messy tarry mess last week I waited . . . and waited . . . and waited for it to dry. To tell the truth, it still doesn't seem completely dry. It was much, much thicker than I anticipated and don't know how anyone could roll that asphalt on to the foundation as it was wicked thick.

I was going to do a second coat, but truthfully it looks like I covered the foundation pretty well and I got antsy and so I put together the plumbing (opted for the slightly better smooth walled pipe vs. coiled up ribbed pipe) and after redigging part of one trench (my angle was off) I laid the pipe, checked the angle of the dangle (at least a half inch or better drop every 4 feet) and glued it together. On one section where I tend to off load my firewood I made a transition from the perforated 4 inch pipe to a solid 3 inch Schedule 40 to hold up better with the weight.

The stone that I thought was pretty clean when it was dropped off was not . . . washing it by hand has been a slow chore, but I did get a fair price on the stone and I would rather take the time now to wash it vs. having to redig the entire thing a few years from now due to excessive silting.

So far the best method (albeit still pretty slow and labor intensive) is to throw some rock on to a half inch mesh screen on top of a pallet on a wheelbarrow. I then use the hose to wash the silt (and some smaller stone unfortunately) into the wheelbarrow. I use a small trowel to work the stone around so it's pretty clean after a minute or so of stirring the rock. As I said . . . still slow . . . but it's getting the job done.

Two sections are about half done . . . another is in place, but no stone.

Tonight a decent sized thunder bumper came through and gave me the chance to see if the system is working. Running outside in the pouring rain in a lightning storm is not the smartest thing I've done, but I'm happy to say the partially finished trenches were filling with water and a decent stream of water was pouring out the ends . . . and there was no water seen in the garage except in one spot where my roofing guy needs to come back and check and in the front where the 1970 vintage, badly fitting doors need to be replaced eventually.


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## firefighterjake (Sep 10, 2017)

Update (maybe I should take some pics to go with this thread):

Finished two of the three French drains (more or less -- I want to change out an end on one of them and I'm replacing a large and very heavy stone with a new step into the garage).

One more (the longest, but not the deepest fortunately) French drain to go. 

Unfortunately that thunderstorm that came through washed some of the gravel back into the trench so I have to redig some of that trench.


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## warno (Sep 10, 2017)

sorry i didn't read all the replies so this may gave been asked/discussed already.

I had the same problem in my garage. The base plate of the wall was right on the poured floor. I had a single course block wall put around my most problematic wall and the water doesn't come in at all anymore. We jacked up that wall and layed the block then cut the bottom off the wall and set it back down on a new base plate tied to the block. I would have a stream of water running through my garage before with heavy rain fall now it's dry as a bone.

If your garage has the base plate right on the pad then I would suggest adding a course of block inbetween the plate and the floor. And seal the outside of the block with a good quality masonry sealer.


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## Dobish (Sep 12, 2017)

nice work!  i have found that the colorado soil it is best to use a pickaxe, then a rototiller, then a spade, then repeat!  I still haven't gotten around to putting my french drain in, but I did decide that it might not even matter since i'm going to tear down the building and put in a garage!


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## BlueRidgeMark (Nov 11, 2017)

sportbikerider78 said:


> Lay in your fabric (make sure it is geotextile, not some garbage landscape fabric).



I can't shout *AMEN *at this loudly enough.   Do NOT use some cheap homeowner weed barrier fabric for your drain!   If you can buy it at Lowes, it's the wrong stuff!

If you are going to do that, don't bother digging the drain.  Just wait a couple of years, *then *do it, because if you use weed barrier now you are going to be re-doing it about then anyway and it will be a lot easier if you don't have to dig up the old drain that you screwed up by going cheap on the fabric.

The stuff you want is not sold at Lowes or Home Depot.  You'll need to find someone near you who sells to highway contractors.  I just did a quick search and found this example:

http://www.easternsupply.com/product/geotextiles/

If you are putting it under gravel for a road, you want the woven kind.  For your French drain, you want the non-woven kind.  This stuff is *thick*, like a blanket.  It's tough and it will keep the fines out of your pipe.

It needs to go in the trench, then stone, then pipe, then stone, then wrap it over the top of the stone.  I've heard it described as a stone-filled burrito.

Do NOT just put it on top!  It's got to be on all sides of the gravel.  Sportrider suggested stone under it, too.  I can't see any harm in that, though I'd never heard of that before.


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## sportbikerider78 (Nov 11, 2017)

The only thing i will add to that is that from my research..the really thick stuff is used in driveways.  Woven geotextile comes in a variety of thicknesses and for a drain it does not need to be of the same quality and toughness as for a driveway.

One like this should do just fine.  The type I used is similar and working really well.  It's tough.  You can't rip it.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00C1S78TA/?tag=hearthamazon-20


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## BlueRidgeMark (Nov 11, 2017)

No, you don't want the woven stuff. It will let the fines through.  For a drain, you want the non-woven.  It's properly called *filter cloth*, because it filters out the fines.

Like this stuff.


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## johneh (Nov 11, 2017)

This is what we use 
https://www.lowes.com/pd/DRAIN-SLEEVE-100-ft-4-in-Pipe-Sock/3199149
It is made for weeping tile or French drain as you call it


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## greythorn3 (Nov 13, 2017)

when you guys do a french drain where does the end of it take the water too? just regular soil at end of pipe or what?


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## Doc C (Nov 13, 2017)

greythorn3 said:


> when you guys do a french drain where does the end of it take the water too? just regular soil at end of pipe or what?



Generally you want to run it out to where it will just head out of the area. Preferably a slope or something.

I have in the past ran a French drain into a large drywall but that's asking for problems if not done properly.


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## greythorn3 (Nov 13, 2017)

i guess you have to have dig a big hole and fill for gravel if your house is on flat land and not higher up, what about draining a basement thats below grade like a split level house? what the heck could you do there? say a split level where half the basements in the ground and on flat land.


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## Doc C (Nov 13, 2017)

greythorn3 said:


> i guess you have to have dig a big hole and fill for gravel if your house is on flat land and not higher up, what about draining a basement thats below grade like a split level house? what the heck could you do there? say a split level where half the basements in the ground and on flat land.



I think what your describing we call a daylight or walk out basement where 3 walls of the basement if below ground and the 4th you can walk out of on to the dirt.

In that case waterproofing is the first step followed by a French drain that feeds to the daylight side and hopefully runs off somewhere. 

If I can't run it somewhere which quite frankly is rare in our area then I will dig a dry well, well below the frost line and fill it with gravel. Size depends on several variables


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## Doc C (Nov 13, 2017)

greythorn3 said:


> i guess you have to have dig a big hole and fill for gravel if your house is on flat land and not higher up, what about draining a basement thats below grade like a split level house? what the heck could you do there? say a split level where half the basements in the ground and on flat land.



And depending on where you are in alaska you might have a whole nother set of problems with frost lines and cold related stuff.

Depending on your situation, waterproofing might be of the most benefit


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## sportbikerider78 (Nov 15, 2017)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> No, you don't want the woven stuff. It will let the fines through.  For a drain, you want the non-woven.  It's properly called *filter cloth*, because it filters out the fines.
> 
> Like this stuff.


I think i clicked on the wrong item on amazon.  Sorry about that.  I also used a geotextile that looks like what you posted.  I don't have any left over to post any pics.


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