# Looks like I picked the wrong year to buy two pellet stove oil prices keep dropping....



## Bassmantweed (Dec 6, 2014)

I know it's a long term play and it will pay off in the end but I was just curious with pellets at $5.50 and oil at $2.60,  my payoff point just went out a few years I think.


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## TimfromMA (Dec 6, 2014)

The point at which I turn the stove off in favor of the oil furnace is rapidly approaching.


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## lagger (Dec 6, 2014)

oil still at 3.00 a gallon here.. I use 3 or 4 tanks at 175 gallons per delivery a year in oil for far less heat in terms of temperature (70-73 as opposesd to 62 to 66 with oil) so I'm still hanging in with the pellets unless oil drops to 2.00 or lower, which I highly doubt I will ever see


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## TimfromMA (Dec 6, 2014)

The cheapest oil I can find in our area is $2.64. Its still $0.64 too high.


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## bags (Dec 6, 2014)

Oil might be cheaper now but it will not stay there for years to come. Now that it is less expensive trucking and shipping food and goods have you seen that reflected in price cuts at the stores...........Nope. It's all a racket and money game.


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## Pellet-King (Dec 6, 2014)

Sure the room your stove is in is 74, but a room away..what is it...dont lie my friend, I'm seeing 10 degrees difference 10 feet around the corner


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## TimfromMA (Dec 6, 2014)

I see a max 4 degree difference between the room where the stove is and the room furthest away on the same level.


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## Tonyray (Dec 6, 2014)

TimfromMA said:


> I see a max 4 degree difference between the room where the stove is and the room furthest away on the same level.





TimfromMA said:


> I see a max 4 degree difference between the room where the stove is and the room furthest away on the same level.


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## alternativeheat (Dec 6, 2014)

Best I can say is keep your stoves. This all has happened before. Though this time has a bit of a new twist to it. I'm not selling my stove.


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## TimfromMA (Dec 6, 2014)

Stove will never be sold, it will jut be used alot less.


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## Bioburner (Dec 6, 2014)

All you need to see high oil is someone throwing a piece of ordinance in a oil producing Arab state or something of the same effect as 911 here


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## bogieb (Dec 6, 2014)

Pellet-King said:


> Sure the room your stove is in is 74, but a room away..what is it...dont lie my friend, I'm seeing 10 degrees difference 10 feet around the corner



My living room (where the stove lives) is 74-76, and my bedroom is 70-71. My bedroom is over the garage, so it was always cold when I was running propane (then, there was a 5-10 degree difference, depending on outdoor temp and wind speed). I have a register fan sitting on the floor under my dresser blowing cold air out, and another fan sitting at the top of the door from the livingroom to the hall blowing warm air down the hall. The other two rooms next to my bedroom aren't more than 1-2 degrees different from the bedroom, if that.


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## Tonyray (Dec 6, 2014)

Pellet-King said:


> Sure the room your stove is in is 74, but a room away..what is it...dont lie my friend, I'm seeing 10 degrees difference 10 feet around the corner


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## Big papa (Dec 6, 2014)

Tonyray said:


> Hate to sound like a broken record here but regardless of Oil Price, to keep my house at 74 degrees as we do with pellets,
> I would just go thru the oil quicker, get oil drops sooner so no savings for us in the long run.
> unless we go back to the 67 degrees house to save Oil and that ain't gonna happen anymore.


I hate to sound like a broken record too but my pellet stash is bought and paid for so won't be looking at pellet or oil prices til next year and yes tony loving the 70 plus degree temps in my home right now


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## moey (Dec 6, 2014)

Use it for ambiance. Ever look at a register or a baseboard for 5 minutes and just be mesmerized by it?


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## unbidden (Dec 6, 2014)

I just installed a pellet as well   and if you feel like reading, oil isn't close to bottom dollar yet.
http://m.barrons.com/articles/the-case-for-35-a-barrel-oil-1417845920?mobile=y


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## BrotherBart (Dec 6, 2014)

It is a subscription site.


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## Tonyray (Dec 6, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> It is a subscription site.


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## alternativeheat (Dec 6, 2014)

Is anyone else not seeing text in Tony's replies because I'm not ? On both one computer of mine and my cell. I haven't tried the other computer.


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## Tonyray (Dec 6, 2014)

alternativeheat said:


> Is anyone else not seeing text in Tony's replies because I'm not ? On both one computer of mine and my cell. I haven't tried the other computer.


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## bags (Dec 6, 2014)

moey said:


> Use it for ambiance. Ever look at a register or a baseboard for 5 minutes and just be mesmerized by it?



Ha hahahaha Ha HA! You made me laugh big time. Beautiful thought!

I will pay for what makes sense but I will do whatever I can to keep warm and put it to the energy kings. Even if using pellets might cost a little more than oil or whatever. At this point it is just as much about principle as it is money. I am so done with that game it isn't even funny. If solar wasn't so expensive and more refined I'd have those bastards paying me each month.

I removed myself from the fluctuating screw overs years ago. Here's a tid bit. The local electric company came out and switched my meter 3 times the first winter I used the Woodmaster a decade ago and they installed a lock on it. That alone insulted me and pissed me off. I heated with wood before that but at another home. The electric co. thought I was screwing them somehow because my usage went from extremely high to extremely low. I am smart enough to know that criminal charges are not worth a little electric cash. At first they thought the meter was bad. After I finally walked the third donkey around and showed him they suddenly understood and he took their lock home. Morons...

As for my temps thru out the house the most fluctuation I get is 7-8 degrees from my farthest reaches from the stove and that is during the real cold days and nights. During upper 30's to the 50's the temperature fluctuation decreases to about 3-4 degrees and I have checked often and monitored this since Oct 18th. Still do for sport and curiosity. I have a pretty open floor plan though on 2 levels and fans moving air. The 7-8 degree difference between the stove area and the farthest reaches is about to get remedied when I install the 2nd pellet stove. Yes, I am that dedicated to not giving utility and energy co.'s my cash. I am currently heating with one stove now and have been. Doubt I use the OWB at all or only to run it this season for fun or it stays well below zero for extended times. Not likely here.


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## Big papa (Dec 6, 2014)

alternativeheat said:


> Is anyone else not seeing text in Tony's replies because I'm not ? On both one computer of mine and my cell. I haven't tried the other computer.


Same problem here


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## bags (Dec 6, 2014)

alternativeheat said:


> Is anyone else not seeing text in Tony's replies because I'm not ? On both one computer of mine and my cell. I haven't tried the other computer.


 All I see is him and his signature. I do see the quote in the last one but nothing Tony says........ Weird.


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## alternativeheat (Dec 6, 2014)

bags said:


> All I see is him and his signature. I do see the quote in the last one but nothing Tony says........ Weird.


Yes, well we have been PMing and today's PMs are the same way. I get quotes and a signature, the Avatar, no text.


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## Big papa (Dec 6, 2014)

Hey bags I ran outta likes so I like your post man


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## Tonyray (Dec 6, 2014)

alternativeheat said:


> Yes, well we have been PMing and today's PMs are the same way. I get quotes and a signature, the Avatar, no text.


Ok guys....
sort of found the problem...
I am now able to type because I went to this site from Internet Explorer.
seems it's a google problem on my end anyways...... no textbox or mouse prompt to type...Could not message the Moderator.
still working on it...
I am alive....only been MIA FOR A WHILE.


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## Big papa (Dec 6, 2014)

I like your post tony


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## claydogg84 (Dec 6, 2014)

If I wasn't getting wood free I would be burning oil. I know at least one guy at work who isn't buying pellets this year because of low oil prices.


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## begreen (Dec 6, 2014)

The site just had a temporary hiccup. Was down for many of us for about 10 minutes. Seems to be good now.


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## alternativeheat (Dec 6, 2014)

Tonyray said:


> Ok guys....
> sort of found the problem...
> I am now able to type because I went to this site from Internet Explorer.
> seems it's a google problem on my end anyways...... no textbox or mouse prompt to type...Could not message the Moderator.
> ...


At first I was concerned it was my end because I had a server slow down a while ago, did a reload etc etc. For a while I couldn't get on the site ( I run through Firefox and Yahoo). But then when the phone didn't pick it up either I posted my query.


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## Big papa (Dec 6, 2014)

begreen said:


> The site just had a temporary hiccup. Was down for many of us for about 10 minutes. Seems to be good now.


I like your post begreen


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## Tonyray (Dec 6, 2014)

alternativeheat said:


> At first I was concerned it was my end because I had a server slow down a while ago, did a reload etc etc. For a while I couldn't get on the site ( I run through Firefox and Yahoo). But then when the phone didn't pick it up either I posted my query.


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## Big papa (Dec 6, 2014)

It's happening again can't read Tony's post


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## alternativeheat (Dec 6, 2014)

Don't be a wiseguy Tony


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## Big papa (Dec 6, 2014)

alternativeheat said:


> Don't be a wiseguy Tony


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## Tonyray (Dec 6, 2014)

sorry.
was trying to post from google...
I'll get this figured out eventually


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## Big papa (Dec 6, 2014)

Lol if you don't think that's funny you need to leave


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## bags (Dec 6, 2014)

Tony is so enthralled with everyone's wisdom and exceptional thought here he is speechless..............


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## BrotherBart (Dec 6, 2014)

Usually if you don't get the box to post in it is a problem with Java on your machine. Outdated version of whatever. The text editor is a Java plug in application in the forum software.


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## Tonyray (Dec 6, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> Usually if you don't get the box to post in it is a problem with Java on your machine. Outdated version of whatever. The text editor is a Java plug in application in the forum software.


yes...
that will be my next checkup.
feel like the Invisible man.
pretty PC savy so I'll find the pesky knat.
just have to remember which browser I am on so as not to drive friends nuts here.


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## Big papa (Dec 6, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> Usually if you don't get the box to post in it is a problem with Java on your machine. Outdated version of whatever. The text editor is a Java plug in application in the forum software.


Well I was having problems as well I was able to post if I could get it to go to the forum but had to try three 4 times to get it to go there said the server was lost


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## alternativeheat (Dec 6, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> Usually if you don't get the box to post in it is a problem with Java on your machine. Outdated version of whatever. The text editor is a Java plug in application in the forum software.


Good to know, since the machine I'm on is an old XP machine I don't keep it too updated and it might be the next to mess up.. My laptop is a Windows 7 machine , that is up to day. It will replace this one some day. I figured in the big "XP is going to crash" scare I might as well see how long it lasts. Still going ! My Daughter In Law, Masters in Psychology and going for her Doctorate just shakes her head. Hey it's good for her !!


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## F4jock (Dec 6, 2014)

Even at present prices ($2.65 / gal) and using oil for my bedrooms and hot water I'm saving!$300 a year using pellets. When I impliment my new hot water system I'll doue that at least. And as has been stated you can't beat the ambiance.


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## alternativeheat (Dec 6, 2014)

Tonyray said:


> yes...
> that will be my next checkup.
> feel like the Invisible man.
> pretty PC savy so I'll find the pesky knat.
> just have to remember which browser I am on so as not to drive friends nuts here.


Too late Tony, ask my Daughter In Law, the Psych Master ( literally).


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## Tonyray (Dec 6, 2014)

alternativeheat said:


> Too late Tony, ask my Daughter In Law, the Psych Master ( literally).


problem is that it's only on this site..
all others web sites no problem texting... but, I will update Java 1st.


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## Skier76 (Dec 6, 2014)

The pellet stove keeps the area it's in in the low to mid 70s.  Oil would have to get really cheap for me to heat the house in that temp range.


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## CladMaster (Dec 6, 2014)

67F v's 74F or higher ............ errr !    De Stove it iz !   De oils manz can goes @#%#$%#%^@


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## unbidden (Dec 6, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> It is a subscription site.



Sorry, I don't have a subscription to Baron's yet I can view it using that link on my cell phone.... ? In a nut shell, Baron's is predicting $35 a barrel oil and then price will slowly raise to $60. Lets see what this does to pellet prices.


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## Bioburner (Dec 6, 2014)

unbidden said:


> Sorry, I don't have a subscription to Baron's yet I can view it using that link on my cell phone.... ? In a nut shell, Baron's is predicting $35 a barrel oil and then price will slowly raise to $60. Lets see what this does to pellet prices.


Or the pellet stove industry. They still make some very nice oil fired heaters with a good flame. Hmm, I have a 1200 gallon tank not used. About three years supply?


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## roadking88 (Dec 6, 2014)

up here in Maine oil down to $2.49/gal..wow...


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## New Hampshire Jim (Dec 6, 2014)

Try this one Its for New Hampshire but you can clisk on other states
Jim

http://www.eia.gov/special/heatingfuels/#/US-NH:oil:week


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## Tonyray (Dec 6, 2014)

Pellet-King said:


> Sure the room your stove is in is 74, but a room away..what is it...dont lie my friend, I'm seeing 10 degrees difference 10 feet around the corner


I swear on a stack of pellets, stove room is 74 degrees.
furthest room is 71 degrees.. on the other hand,
I have a friend who has pellet stove and his floor plan is broken up in such a way that you walk thru short hallway to each room. kind of like a maze.
the room the stove is in is balls out crazy warm and others rooms the heat just barely get's there.. at least a 10 degree difference or more.


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## moey (Dec 7, 2014)

We had over a 10 degree difference between rooms. Small entrance way into the room where the stove was. One of the reasons I quit burning on a regular basis. I had no desire to be in a room that was 75 and was cold in the rooms where it was 62. Didnt like the sound of a fan trying to move air around. God I sound like a woman..


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## jbest1 (Dec 7, 2014)

We have baseboard electric heat so I don't worry about the price of heating oil. My pellet stove is saving me big time and the house is a lot warmer. 70 or above with the pellet stove and was 62 with the electric heat.


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## Tonyray (Dec 7, 2014)

jbest1 said:


> We have baseboard electric heat so I don't worry about the price of heating oil. My pellet stove is saving me big time and the house is a lot warmer. 70 or above with the pellet stove and was 62 with the electric heat.


Exactly why most of us here invested in a Pellet Stove..


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## Bioburner (Dec 7, 2014)

Just read highlights of a interview of T Boone Pickens and he figures crude will be over 100 in 12 to 16 months.


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## mass_burner (Dec 7, 2014)

I'll tell you one thing, these lower oil prices have me considering upping my getting up temp from 62 to 64 in the common area. I'll still put on a fire, but it will take less time to get up to temp.


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## mass_burner (Dec 7, 2014)

Bioburner said:


> Just read highlights of a interview of T Boone Pickens and he figures crude will be over 100 in 12 to 16 months.


Isn't he a NG perma bull? Doesn't he have huge NG interests?


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## Doug MacIVER (Dec 7, 2014)

turning off the electric space heaters in real cold spells. back to the oil  burner when we really need help for the little F100. prices for ff vs elec going in opposites instead of tandem. from what I've read recently watch out mid Dec for the cold to take hold east 2/3 of the country.


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## Drew65 (Dec 7, 2014)

I mostly went to pellets for noise. It's a small place with forced hot air system. I like a quiet house and that kicking on and off all night bugged me. Now this stove is so quiet and the house is warmer then i keep it with oil i love it. But with it so low now I'm thinking of running it while I'm at work and cranking up the stove when I get home


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## turbotboz (Dec 8, 2014)

I'm curious if propane prices drop inline with oil. I'm watching this link over the winter. http://www.eia.gov/petroleum/heatingoilpropane/#itn-tabs-1

Although I already my pellet supply for the winter and propane would need to be WELL under $2/gal to make me turn on the furnace.


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## Bioburner (Dec 8, 2014)

I picked up a fill of propain first half of July for 1.49/gallon. Local tank farm is now empty. Now price is around $2. Wet corn and a very cold November sucked up supply around here.


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## lordgrinz (Dec 8, 2014)

I checked this against what I paid for pellets this year(they weren't cheap!), and I think oil would have to hit $2.40 before I would even consider it. However I have already bought the pellets, so why not burn them, and not pay more out of pocket. Might actually experiment with cheaper pellets next year, though I prefer pellets with the least amount of ash buildup.


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## bogieb (Dec 8, 2014)

turbotboz said:


> I'm curious if propane prices drop inline with oil. I'm watching this link over the winter. http://www.eia.gov/petroleum/heatingoilpropane/#itn-tabs-1
> 
> Although I already my pellet supply for the winter and propane would need to be WELL under $2/gal to make me turn on the furnace.



Propane prices have actually been rising the last couple of weeks here. Just ordered 150 gallons  (about $500 worth) to ensure I have enough for my hot water, running FHW if I take any vacation, and running the boiler to circulate warm water twice/day during cold spells (don't want pipes in garage freezing!). I figure that will last me at least a year if not more.

This will be the cheapest, at least amount of propane for a delivery I have ever had. Last year I was on about a 25 day delivery cycle because that would use 70% of a 500 gal tank. This will be the first delivery since I go the Harman (and now, it won't be full, but with the 20% that is in the tank, it is plenty)


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## bogieb (Dec 8, 2014)

Bioburner said:


> I picked up a fill of propain first half of July for 1.49/gallon. Local tank farm is now empty. Now price is around $2. Wet corn and a very cold November sucked up supply around here.



Would kill for either of those prices - well, maim anyway - LOL. $3.30, or so around these parts.


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## bogieb (Dec 8, 2014)

Bioburner said:


> I picked up a fill of propain first half of July for 1.49/gallon. Local tank farm is now empty. Now price is around $2. Wet corn and a very cold November sucked up supply around here.



Hey, and you probably have that <$2.00/gal. gas too - not even close to that here


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## moey (Dec 8, 2014)

bogieb said:


> Hey, and you probably have that <$2.00/gal. gas too - not even close to that here



Im sure hes got 6% sales tax on everything too.. They get their money somehow..


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## WEEZHOLE (Dec 8, 2014)

Our heating oil is still $2.79 a gallon in Pennsylvania. I easily use 100 gallons or more a month and with a ton of pellets running around $250, which last me longer than a month, I still get a warmer house for a little less money. With oil, our house was around 60-64, with the pellet stove, we run around 66-70. If the oil prices are still down at the end of the season, I may fill up my 250 gallon tank just to have it. We may never see prices this low again.


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## bogieb (Dec 8, 2014)

moey said:


> Im sure hes got 6% sales tax on everything too.. They get their money somehow..


When I'm looking at $2.70/gal (including state and fed taxes), <$2/gal is sounding mighty good. Most states add their taxes to the sale price of the fuel, not as a separate charge. However, don't want a 6% sales tax on the other stuff - I much prefer the 0% sales tax in NH (unless of course, you buy one of the 150 +/- items that are taxed separately by law)


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## TimfromMA (Dec 8, 2014)

The price at the pump includes all taxes.


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## alternativeheat (Dec 8, 2014)

We probably have one of the highest propane prices on earth here on Cape Cod. They cart it down from off cape, last bill was $4.65 a gal according to my wife. But we only have a 100 gal tank and it's for cooking and hot water, the cloths dryer. We fill two to three times a year more or less and it's never all that low when we do. Funny we got rid of this company once and they bought out who we went with , so now we are stuck with them again. The last company was about a buck a gallon lower


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## chken (Dec 8, 2014)

roadking88 said:


> up here in Maine oil down to $2.49/gal..wow...


Not everywhere in Maine. For some odd reason here in central, central Maine, we're still paying $2.75.

http://maineoil.com/zone2.asp?x=0


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## steveg_nh (Dec 8, 2014)

I know what you are all saying. I dropped about $5k on my M55 insert when all done (insert, install, electrical, etc), but even at $2.50/gallon for oil, and spending $1800 on 6 tons of pellets, if I use little oil, I'm still saving about $900-1300 (depending on price). And it's way warmer in the house. We kept our oil temps around 66-67. We're around 72 with the pellet stove.


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## Tonyray (Dec 8, 2014)

steveg_nh said:


> I know what you are all saying. I dropped about $5k on my M55 insert, but even at $2.50/gallon for oil, and spending $1800 on 6 tons of pellets, if I use little oil, I'm still saving about $900-1300 (depending on price). And it's way warmer in the house. We kept our oil temps around 66-67. We're around 72 with the pellet stove.


Same story for many here...
Mid to upper 60's with Oil
Anywhere in 70's with pellets.


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## jintoreedwine (Dec 8, 2014)

At least where I live, the best I can do for oil is around $2.60 and as many others have stated, I was keeping the house in the low to mid 60s and with the pellet stove I can easily be in the low 70's. So, even if oil and pellet prices reached the break even point, I'd still choose pellets because the house would be MUCH warmer. The bottom line is, even though I just put my stove in this year, I do not regret it one bit .

Additionally, with pellets I can much more easily buy when the prices are low and store them. I only have a 275 gallon oil tank which doesn't even come close to lasting the entire winter, so I end up having to buy a tanks worth or more during peak demand. 

Maybe someone else knows, but what effect do these lower gas prices have on pellet pricing? I would think it might cause pellets to eventually drop somewhat in price as it would now cost less to move them around. Additionally, as other less dedicated pellet burners switch back to oil, that should lower demand on pellets -- thus lowering their price as well. (I'm no economics expert, that's just my theory)


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## Bioburner (Dec 8, 2014)

Problem with pellets is the export of them now. Russia putting the squeeze on Europe with NG. Other industrial power plants eating the supply too now.


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## jintoreedwine (Dec 8, 2014)

Bioburner said:


> Problem with pellets is the export of them now. Russia putting the squeeze on Europe with NG. Other industrial power plants eating the supply too now.



Hmmm, that's interesting. I would never have guessed pellets were something that's exported.


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## Bioburner (Dec 8, 2014)

jintoreedwine said:


> Hmmm, that's interesting. I would never have guessed pellets were something that's exported.


Most of the new plants in US and Canada are for export.


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## jintoreedwine (Dec 8, 2014)

Bioburner said:


> Most of the new plants in US and Canada are for export.



In my mind, then, that is almost more concerning than the current fall of oil prices. I read somewhere that it isn't really very economical to chop down a tree for the express purpose for making pellets -- hence -- after a certain point it seems there might not be enough waste saw dust to go around. Though, I have no idea how much raw saw dust supply there is.


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## seabert (Dec 8, 2014)

I am glad I went with wood instead of pellets. Much easier to find free wood. All my wood was scrounged last season so this year my wood heat is free. I have a supply of Envi's just in case my supply runs low.


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## Bioburner (Dec 8, 2014)

There is other things that can produce fiber faster than trees. I am interested in a new Canola crushing plant being built near the Canadian border or the oil producing pond scum for oils. With ethanol being produced from industrial beets instead of corn the prices of corn may stay low too.


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## TimfromMA (Dec 9, 2014)

seabert said:


> I am glad I went with wood instead of pellets. Much easier to find free wood. All my wood was scrounged last season so this year my wood heat is free. I have a supply of Envi's just in case my supply runs low.



Alot of places have regulations that forbid transporting firewood due to invasive insects. You also cant beat the convenience and ease of use that a pellet stove provides over a wood stove.


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## canuck_22 (Dec 9, 2014)

LOL...as a Hydro One sucker here in Ontario pellets are in my future for a long time, a 42% increase over the next 5 years, I can only hope the low fuel cost will drive the cost of pellets down as well.


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## Pellet-King (Dec 9, 2014)

alternativeheat said:


> We probably have one of the highest propane prices on earth here on Cape Cod. They cart it down from off cape, last bill was $4.65 a gal according to my wife. But we only have a 100 gal tank and it's for cooking and hot water, the cloths dryer. We fill two to three times a year more or less and it's never all that low when we do. Funny we got rid of this company once and they bought out who we went with , so now we are stuck with them again. The last company was about a buck a gallon lower



For $1000-$1500 just to do that I would of switched all those appliances to electric...like your name implies...I'd find alternative's!


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## alternativeheat (Dec 9, 2014)

Pellet-King said:


> For $1000-$1500 just to do that I would of switched all those appliances to electric...like your name implies...I'd find alternative's!


 We do have two other gas companies off Cape, last I knew one did not deliver in our area, not sure about the other yet.. But when we found this one we were ticked, then it got bought out by the very one we were dumping !! But she just bought all new appliances recently while we had the lower rate, the good new is they are energy efficient at least...


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## alternativeheat (Dec 9, 2014)

jintoreedwine said:


> Hmmm, that's interesting. I would never have guessed pellets were something that's exported.


Yes, mostly to Europe and also mostly industrial grade pellets ( lower grade than what we burn)..


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## jfunk138 (Dec 9, 2014)

jintoreedwine said:


> Maybe someone else knows, but what effect do these lower gas prices have on pellet pricing? I would think it might cause pellets to eventually drop somewhat in price as it would now cost less to move them around. Additionally, as other less dedicated pellet burners switch back to oil, that should lower demand on pellets -- thus lowering their price as well. (I'm no economics expert, that's just my theory)


Lower gas prices translate into lower costs to bring pellets to you.  However, it's unlikely that savings will be passed on to you as long as the supply/demand equation is still heavily favoring the demand side.  When box stores can't keep them in stock what reason would there be to reduce prices?  Even though we are at or near the point, where heating oil/propane is cheaper, many will illogically burn pellets anyway. There's a human factor here.  

-Some are just bad at math.
-Some won't even bother to check prices on the alternative fuel.  
-Some will fall into a sunken cost fallacy (I spent 5 grand for this pellet eater, damn it I'm going to use it!).  
-Some will gladly spend hours cleaning and tuning their pellet burner, but let their alternative system run uncleaned/untuned/nozzle too big/etc and then complain the calculator is broken.
-Some like burning pellets for political/idealogical reasons.  

For all these reasons I'm not holding out much hope that pellet prices will correct this heating season.


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## alternativeheat (Dec 9, 2014)

jfunk138 said:


> Lower gas prices translate into lower costs to bring pellets to you.  However, it's unlikely that savings will be passed on to you as long as the supply/demand equation is still heavily favoring the demand side.  When box stores can't keep them in stock what reason would there be to reduce prices?  Even though we are at or near the point, where heating oil/propane is cheaper, many will illogically burn pellets anyway. There's a human factor here.
> 
> -Some are just bad at math.
> -Some won't even bother to check prices on the alternative fuel.
> ...


Well and prices zoom up but trickle back down. Besides , pellets for this years sales are pretty much in the system. I don't think you will see a scale back till next season if at all. The lower oil prices may Hold the pricing as is at least though. Then next year a whole new thing, by then oil could be headed back up. But even so generally summer pellets prices are lower than in mid burn season. I know that's when we get our one store locally to do it's pre season sale which is a fair bit lower than mid winter pricing even on a lousy year..

I'm not going to buy oil now when I have pellets bought and paid for and 3/4 tank of fuel oil.. I'm going to burn a little oil anyway because we have  to heat our tenant and hopefully when we need to refill along towards later winter or maybe early spring with a little luck, the price will still be down. And next summer the price of pellets might be a tad lower than now, like last summer was compared with the shortage times in Feb..

I'm not going to speak for every persons situation. I can't make a blanket statement that says, oh ya go out and burn oil now, shut down your stoves. Who am I to tell anyone to do that.


----------



## woodmakesheat (Dec 9, 2014)

jfunk138 said:


> For all these reasons I'm not holding out much hope that pellet prices will correct this heating season.



They may not, though local HD has about 50 tons sitting there along with 3 pallets open for single bag sales. Seems many have already stocked up this year, so who knows what happens if they sit unsold. I have 3 tons to burn (that I bought in Sept.), but also filled my oil tank which is helpful when the house needs a more rapid heat-up or it's below about 0 deg F. Oil is still about $2.95 here from the mainstream vendors. I may switch to a cash place though as I see no reason to pay $30-$40 more for 100 gallons due to "loyalty".


----------



## alternativeheat (Dec 9, 2014)

woodmakesheat said:


> They may not, though local HD has about 50 tons sitting there along with 3 pallets open for single bag sales. Seems many have already stocked up this year, so who knows what happens if they sit unsold. I have 3 tons to burn (that I bought in Sept.), but also filled my oil tank which is helpful when the house needs a more rapid heat-up or it's below about 0 deg F. Oil is still about $2.95 here from the mainstream vendors. I may switch to a cash place though as I see no reason to pay $30-$40 more for 100 gallons due to "loyalty".


Ya know combining your main heat and the stove works great. We did that for years with coal, you don't have to ring out the stove so bad and the burner it sips oil. Really I mean it really strings out the oil fill intervals. i wasn't one who turned the oil heat down just because the stove was going, in fact turned it up. I hated the house at 64 ( the outreaches with a radiant only stove), so put it up to 67 or 68 or so. Ya it came on now and then, so what. It wasn't on long or often but having cast iron radiators in the house it really warmed up the corners. I tended the coal stove trice a day. The main heat came on mostly someplace near tending time, like 3 am for a half hour, the the radiators carried it till I got up at 5 just about then the heat would kick on a second time. And maybe once in the afternoon. You can go a really long time on a tank of oil that way.


----------



## mass_burner (Dec 10, 2014)

UHN is approaching a 5 year low at 23.50. I will probably start nibbling at the 20 price.


----------



## briansol (Dec 10, 2014)

I'm running my stove a notch lower (sometimes) than i normally would, and running the oil a little bit.   So, the oil gets the house up to temp, the pellet attempts to keep it there as long as possible.

until I can pay my oil bills for under a Grand for the season, pellets are still it for me.    The last year i ran oil only was 2007, and oil was about 4.50 a gallon and i spent about 5500 on it that season.   by that logic, oil needs to get near 1.75 for me to really consider it, or pellets need to SKYROCKET but, honestly, it doesn't matter for this season as i alreayd bought my stash


----------



## steveg_nh (Dec 10, 2014)

I just got a oil delivery. It's been 35 days since the last one. They only dropped off 53 gallons.  Just about my DHW usage only. Nice!


----------



## Wilbur Feral (Dec 11, 2014)

jfunk138 said:


> Lower gas prices translate into lower costs to bring pellets to you.  However, it's unlikely that savings will be passed on to you as long as the supply/demand equation is still heavily favoring the demand side.  When box stores can't keep them in stock what reason would there be to reduce prices?  Even though we are at or near the point, where heating oil/propane is cheaper, many will illogically burn pellets anyway. There's a human factor here.
> 
> -Some are just bad at math.
> -Some won't even bother to check prices on the alternative fuel.
> ...


Well said.  

And our bigggest worry re: pellets is likely the export plants and their effect on supply of raw materials (waste wood products).


----------



## TimfromMA (Dec 11, 2014)

If oil becomes more cost effctive, the pellet stove will be treated like a fireplace and lit only occasionally when we want the ambiance of a fire.


----------



## CladMaster (Dec 11, 2014)

Oil slide --- Could we see $40.00 per barrel ?   Could we ?  It's possible !  Oil is now down to the $60 - $65 mark and still falling....

The good news is ..... fuel is cheap ...... for now.

The bad news ..... Oh, don't even go there !


----------



## alternativeheat (Dec 11, 2014)

CladMaster said:


> Oil slide --- Could we see $40.00 per barrel ?   Could we ?  It's possible !  Oil is now down to the $60 - $65 mark and still falling....
> 
> The good news is ..... fuel is cheap ...... for now.
> 
> The bad news ..... Oh, don't even go there !


Depends how bad the green bunch wants to shut down rail car transporting of fracked crude. And that's "potentially" an easier mark to nail than a pipeline.   So far what's come of that though, is we see a three year plan to replace some obsolete single wall tank cars for safer true oil hauling cars.. That is not a bad thing. Though since there are some 250,000 single wall cars in operation now that's quite a goal. But on the other hand it creates real paying jobs..

Actually, I don't mind seeing some safer oil cars on the train lines since out son runs one of those trains.


----------



## mass_burner (Dec 11, 2014)

briansol said:


> I'm running my stove a notch lower (sometimes) than i normally would, and running the oil a little bit.   So, the oil gets the house up to temp, the pellet attempts to keep it there as long as possible.
> 
> until I can pay my oil bills for under a Grand for the season, pellets are still it for me.    The last year i ran oil only was 2007, and oil was about 4.50 a gallon and i spent about 5500 on it that season.   by that logic, oil needs to get near 1.75 for me to really consider it, or pellets need to SKYROCKET but, honestly, it doesn't matter for this season as i alreayd bought my stash


Does it really matter when you bought your pellets? You still are better off running oil if the price is lower.


----------



## maple1 (Dec 11, 2014)

steveg_nh said:


> I just got a oil delivery. It's been 35 days since the last one. They only dropped off 53 gallons.  Just about my DHW usage only. Nice!


 
That's a lot of oil for just DHW heating - think I would consider an alternative.


----------



## bogieb (Dec 11, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> Does it really matter when you bought your pellets? You still are better off running oil if the price is lower.



Depends on Cash Flow. My pellets are paid for, I don't need cash coming in to use them. I need cash to pay for propane deliveries though - and I don't have an extra 1000 to fill my tank right now (and wouldn't have the money to fill the tank if somehow propane went to $2/gallon).


----------



## mass_burner (Dec 11, 2014)

bogieb said:


> Depends on Cash Flow. My pellets are paid for, I don't need cash coming in to use them. I need cash to pay for propane deliveries though - and I don't have an extra 1000 to fill my tank right now (and wouldn't have the money to fill the tank if somehow propane went to $2/gallon).


That's a good reason.


----------



## sportbikerider78 (Dec 11, 2014)

Oil getting more reasonable is a much bigger payoff than even stoves.  I'm saving $20 on filling up the SUV every week.  

That having been said, I don't let pellets sit around in my basement for a summer.  I bought them, I'm going to burn them.


----------



## JTRock (Dec 11, 2014)

I like others have bought and paid for both cordwood and pellets. I prefer the heat from both appliances over the warm choking dust smell of the baseboard gurgling away. I still need oil for domesticated hot water though. Last year I would run to the thermo and click the heat on while the misses took her long shower. It was like free heat lol! That house was a bear to heat for some reason. This new one is so much easier


----------



## Tonyray (Dec 11, 2014)

maple1 said:


> That's a lot of oil for just DHW heating - think I would consider an alternative.


I use Oil for DHW...
Of course it;s just wife and I but I got 100 gallons back in February and then again in October...
the 275 gallon tank was quarter full..I;m little below half right now..
I'm guessing half gallon or less per day.


----------



## Doug MacIVER (Dec 11, 2014)

what little electric space heating I use is now back to the oil burner. just checked out my new electric rates today. nasty grid up from $.08277/kw to $.16273 before delivery charges. my oil dealer's price today  $2.609. last year I averaged $3.569. look to save a ton this year, then nasty grid steals it all for lts and running the boiler. TIHS/////


----------



## steveg_nh (Dec 12, 2014)

maple1 said:


> That's a lot of oil for just DHW heating - think I would consider an alternative.



My wife reminded me that we used some oil in the upstairs family room a few nights when the kids had sleepovers. We average about 1.3 gallons a day for DWH alone.


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## maple1 (Dec 12, 2014)

steveg_nh said:


> My wife reminded me that we used some oil in the upstairs family room a few nights when the kids had sleepovers. We average about 1.3 gallons a day for DWH alone.


 
That's still a LOT of oil & expense for DHW. I thought ours was real bad (and it was) at 3/4 gallon or so per day.

I put in a new 80 gallon electric water heater 2-1/2 years ago here and sent the oil man packing. It can keep us (family of 5) in hot water for about $1/day (at $0.18/kwh). Getting rid of everything oil here was the best thing I've ever done. (Although might not be the best choice for everyones situation....)


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## woodmakesheat (Dec 12, 2014)

I spend about $75/mo for hot water, cooking and clothes drying via propane. Does that seem reasonable? 

Propane is $3.30/gallon locally.


----------



## btuser (Dec 12, 2014)

First year I had the insert I was struggling to burn "seasoned" oak and oil had dropped to $1.50 gallon.  Totally not worth it. Totally awesome.

If it happened again I'd wait,  scrounge pallets for a fix if I needed it.   I won't struggle with wet wood again.  Every wood burner has his/her Scarlet O'Hara moment.  Happens with the pellet burners too, ususally around January when everyone's run out, and another little piggie is born.


----------



## steveg_nh (Dec 15, 2014)

Well, on top of my DHW usage, my boiler is incredibly inefficient. It has to stay at temp, or it leaks. It can't go cold...so that's wasting too.


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## F4jock (Dec 15, 2014)

Use the oil burner to heat the bedrooms and hot water. In the winter hot water is a "free" by-product of the heat. Got a plan to get rid of the oil for hot water during the summer.


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## bogieb (Dec 15, 2014)

I just got 150 gallons of propane at $3.11; $466 is damn near 2 tons of pellets. And if I was heating just my living area with propane, that wouldn't last a month even when the temps are just in the 20's and 30's (at 64 degree set-temp).

2 tons of pellets will get me about 2 months of heating (or more at this time of year) - and that is at 72-75 degree inside temps in both the basement and living area. Can't see why I would want to switch. Even if propane was at $2/gal and I could make a cold month on 150 gallons, and I only ran it for 5 months, that is $1500 of propane - 6 tons of pellets.


----------



## jfunk138 (Dec 15, 2014)

http://www.cmegroup.com/trading/energy/refined-products/heating-oil.html

January 2015 Heating Oil futures finally drop below $2/gallon.


----------



## Bioburner (Dec 15, 2014)

Crude dropped over $2 a barrel today too. Fuel prices here are elevated as there is a shortage in state. Pipeline is busy pumping ND crude south.


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## F4jock (Dec 15, 2014)

Bioburner said:


> Crude dropped over $2 a barrel today too. Fuel prices here are elevated as there is a shortage in state. Pipeline is busy pumping ND crude south.


US crude is at $55.42 /bbl.


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## dave2112 (Dec 15, 2014)

I have always had. And always will have 2 ways to heat my house. Incase one breaks. The Lake Effect can really keep you from getting out for parts sometimes. Not to mention my beer freezing and exploding. I can not have that.


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## woodmakesheat (Dec 15, 2014)

5 ways? Oil, wood, several electric space heaters, pellet heat this year and have even used the propane cooking stove in a pinch.

Perhaps I"m obsessive.


----------



## lagger (Dec 15, 2014)

Bioburner said:


> There is other things that can produce fiber faster than trees. I am interested in a new Canola crushing plant being built near the Canadian border or the oil producing pond scum for oils. With ethanol being produced from industrial beets instead of corn the prices of corn may stay low too.


Another good reason to lift the ban on Hemp production, it can be used for both fiber and oil among other uses (hemp in not psychoactive but got lumped in purposefully to make wood pulp production profitable)


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## briansol (Dec 15, 2014)

i'm using the oil more than i normally would.  The hot water radiators get the house up to temp, the pellet stove 'maintains' it for as long as it can.


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## mass_burner (Dec 16, 2014)

briansol said:


> i'm using the oil more than i normally would.  The hot water radiators get the house up to temp, the pellet stove 'maintains' it for as long as it can.


All this coverage of oil prices gets my wife using the furnace more, argh!


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## Doug MacIVER (Dec 16, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> All this coverage of oil prices gets my wife using the furnace more, argh!


actually told the wife to put the heat on if she was too cold. the way our house is it's takes a good part of the day to get it to 68* from the 4am 60* in family room.. used to use an electric space heater but with the sky electric rates, no more.


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## TimfromMA (Dec 16, 2014)

My son is visiting me from NC and he likes sleeping in the downstairs bedroom. The drop in oil prices comes at a convenient time since the only heat down there is oil. My stove is upstairs.


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## mass_burner (Dec 16, 2014)

Doug MacIVER said:


> actually told the wife to put the heat on if she was too cold. the way our house is it's takes a good part of the day to get it to 68* from the 4am 60* in family room.. used to use an electric space heater but with the sky electric rates, no more.


Most of the day to go up 8 d?


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## xSpecBx (Dec 16, 2014)

I use between 1/2 and 3/4 gallon of oil per day in the summer for hot water (I have an indirect hot water system).  I suspect that number increases slightly in the winter as we take warmer showers.  I have thought about switching to an electric hot water heater, but I worry, especially with the pellet stove, that leaving the oil boiler idle for so long may cause problems.  I'll pay the $500 a year for hot water if it means I don't have to worry about not having the boiler when I need it.

Oil hit $2.46/gal yesterday from my distributor.  This time last year I paid $3.67/gal.  I'm not going to complain about the price of oil.  I'll use the boiler and save the pellets for next year.  Right now I'm just using the stove for a few hours when the wife and I get home from work.


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## Doug MacIVER (Dec 16, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> Most of the day to go up 8 d?


stove is a small f100, low burn of two loads  from 8pm til 1pm next day. family room thermostat way around corner from the stove. weekends a lot different, weekdays we're both @ work. like to use the bricks in colder weather as they hold the stove at a higher temp for a longer time. have a day


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## mass_burner (Dec 16, 2014)

According to the specs in my boiler, it uses .40 / gal per hour.  I imagine that's under ideal conditions when it was new. Is there any feasible way to measure it in operation?


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## TimfromMA (Dec 16, 2014)

Flow gauge on the line running from the tank to the boiler?


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## xSpecBx (Dec 16, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> According to the specs in my boiler, it uses .40 / gal per hour.  I imagine that's under ideal conditions when it was new. Is there any feasible way to measure it in operation?


I believe the flow rate is set by the nozzles in you boiler. It shouldn't change. What will change is the amount of heat you get from your boiler (i.e. the efficiency) so as the boiler ages it will run more to produce the same amount of heat.

You can hook up an hours meter and match that with you oil consumption to see how much youre actually consuming on an hourly basis.

The biggest thing I read with a boiler is that its least efficient at startup and shutdown so short cycling is bad


----------



## Tonyray (Dec 16, 2014)

xSpecBx said:


> I use between 1/2 and 3/4 gallon of oil per day in the summer for hot water (I have an indirect hot water system).  I suspect that number increases slightly in the winter as we take warmer showers.  I have thought about switching to an electric hot water heater, but I worry, especially with the pellet stove, that leaving the oil boiler idle for so long may cause problems.  I'll pay the $500 a year for hot water if it means I don't have to worry about not having the boiler when I need it.
> 
> Oil hit $2.46/gal yesterday from my distributor.  This time last year I paid $3.67/gal.  I'm not going to complain about the price of oil.  I'll use the boiler and save the pellets for next year.  Right now I'm just using the stove for a few hours when the wife and I get home from work.


I have a Wiel/McLain Gold oil furnace and for that reason I still use it for DHW for 2 reasons..
Backup for when/if the pellet stove goes down but more important my furnace is meant to run hot every day.
to shut it down for months at a time will cause the gaskets to leak eventually.... it;s the main reason I never switched to hot water tank..
I have only bought 200 gallons of oil since February for this year....100 feb and 100 in October.. still have enough till feb..


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## sportbikerider78 (Dec 16, 2014)

I have electric hot water.  Wired it myself.  Gutted the old copper system that was tied into the oil boiler.  And plumbed it in about 15 hrs...all by my lonesome.  Never done wire or any plumbing in my life till that moment.  hahaha

Also have oil burner for getting the house up to temp and a zone for the bedrooms.  The pellet stove is really the primary heat source in the winter.  It is always on.


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## JTRock (Dec 18, 2014)

woodmakesheat said:


> 5 ways? Oil, wood, several electric space heaters, pellet heat this year and have even used the propane cooking stove in a pinch.
> 
> Perhaps I"m obsessive.


 Same here, we must be cut from the same OCD cloth then


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## TimfromMA (Dec 18, 2014)

I have one of these for heating my garage whenever I want to work in there but I could use it in my house if everything else fails.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_131258-5164...l=1&currentURL=?Ntt=propane+heater&facetInfo=


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## woodmakesheat (Dec 18, 2014)

Every time I see this thread pop up, I think...


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## Doug MacIVER (Dec 18, 2014)

sportbikerider78 said:


> I have electric hot water.  Wired it myself.  Gutted the old copper system that was tied into the oil boiler.  And plumbed it in about 15 hrs...all by my lonesome.  Never done wire or any plumbing in my life till that moment.  hahaha
> 
> Also have oil burner for getting the house up to temp and a zone for the bedrooms.  The pellet stove is really the primary heat source in the winter.  It is always on.


might want to check your insurance. most states(if not all) require that work to be installed by licensed plumber and electricians? just a thought.


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## moey (Dec 18, 2014)

Doug MacIVER said:


> might want to check your insurance. most states(if not all) require that work to be installed by licensed plumber and electricians? just a thought.



Most states?? I think you have lived in Mass to long. Yes I lived there it was ridiculous you weren't allowed to put a new breaker in the panel in the town I lived in because I the home owner was not licensed.  

While most states probably require a inspection a home owner can do most anything themselves and have it inspected. When I installed mine no electrical inspection or permit required did need a plumbing permit though.


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## Doug MacIVER (Dec 18, 2014)

moey said:


> Most states?? I think you have lived in Mass to long. Yes I lived there it was ridiculous you weren't allowed to put a new breaker in the panel in the town I lived in because I the home owner was not licensed.
> 
> While most states probably require a inspection a home owner can do most anything themselves and have it inspected. When I installed mine no electrical inspection or permit required did need a plumbing permit though.


point being the insurance company finds out your not lic and no inspect good luck with your claim. nightmare in the making if( and that is the question IF) something goes wrong. hell in the 70's two wood stoves put in, clay liners no permit needed. today liners, permits, inspection. progress.


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## mass_burner (Dec 18, 2014)

TimfromMA said:


> I have one of these for heating my garage whenever I want to work in there but I could use it in my house if everything else fails.
> 
> http://www.lowes.com/pd_131258-5164...l=1&currentURL=?Ntt=propane+heater&facetInfo=


Did I just read that it is not to be sold in MA?


----------



## Pellet-King (Dec 19, 2014)

Anyone have a Adams 98% Oil Furnace?


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## Fish On (Dec 19, 2014)

Doug MacIVER said:


> might want to check your insurance. most states(if not all) require that work to be installed by licensed plumber and electricians? just a thought.



In mass our wonderful state we live in u can not according to code change out really anything. Which is real stupid to some degree. 
You can change out a gas water heater with no permit but you have to be license to change out a oil fed water heater..

Go figure when was the last time someone blew up a house with oil?


----------



## jintoreedwine (Dec 19, 2014)

Doug MacIVER said:


> point being the insurance company finds out your not lic and no inspect good luck with your claim. nightmare in the making if( and that is the question IF) something goes wrong. hell in the 70's two wood stoves put in, clay liners no permit needed. today liners, permits, inspection. progress.



As someone who likes to do their own home repair, I find these sorts of things troubling. I think all of these insurance issues and local laws are actually having a negative impact in some cases. I believe people who, like me, research a job very carefully and would otherwise do everything to code because it is the right thing to do get scared by the prospect of insurance issues or the fines from the town and people who just don't care, still don't care, and go ahead and do a cruddy job. 

When I do a home improvement project that is beyond something the average Joe would do, I now don't feel comfortable unless I contact my local building inspector and make sure I don't need some sort of permit before I embark on a project to work on MY house. I wish it didn't have to be that way, especially when I am stuck fixing the aftermath of someone else's failed work who didn't even bother to check building code before they started. The people who don't care and just rush through it will not be stopped by laws/codes that realistically can't be enforced, it only seems the well meaning people are impacted -- but they are the people I WANT doing these projects!

So, I try my best to encourage people who have the skills and mind for home repair to go ahead and do it, and to just make sure they file for permits/do good work/etc. If we get too afraid to work on our own houses, we'll likely lose the freedom to do so, as more and more laws get passed under the premise that "no one unlicensed or who is not a professional does these sorts of projects anyway."

Just my 2 cents on the issue anyway.


----------



## Doug MacIVER (Dec 19, 2014)

jintoreedwine said:


> As someone who likes to do their own home repair, I find these sorts of things troubling. I think all of these insurance issues and local laws are actually having a negative impact in some cases. I believe people who, like me, research a job very carefully and would otherwise do everything to code because it is the right thing to do get scared by the prospect of insurance issues or the fines from the town and people who just don't care, still don't care, and go ahead and do a cruddy job.
> 
> When I do a home improvement project that is beyond something the average Joe would do, I now don't feel comfortable unless I contact my local building inspector and make sure I don't need some sort of permit before I embark on a project to work on MY house. I wish it didn't have to be that way, especially when I am stuck fixing the aftermath of someone else's failed work who didn't even bother to check building code before they started. The people who don't care and just rush through it will not be stopped by laws/codes that realistically can't be enforced, it only seems the well meaning people are impacted -- but they are the people I WANT doing these projects!
> 
> ...


respect and even envy your abilities. just that the powers that be find one minor code violation and then they have you dismantle the whole thing. ins. is a whole other story.


----------



## TimfromMA (Dec 19, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> Did I just read that it is not to be sold in MA?



Bought it in RI


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## jintoreedwine (Dec 19, 2014)

Doug MacIVER said:


> respect and even envy your abilities. just that the powers that be find one minor code violation and then they have you dismantle the whole thing. ins. is a whole other story.



I'm sure this sort of thing does happen, but I would hope it is not the norm. I have found that if you are respectful and show an interest in doing the job correctly, the local building inspector will be more than happy to help you make sure your project is to code (that is part of their job, after all!)

Building code may sound scary, but it isn't a mysterious thing. You can read the code, and when you are doing the project, you just have to make sure what you are doing meets or exceeds (my preference) the requirements of the building code . If you do that, you should not have to lose any sleep at night about the powers that be coming in and telling you that you have to tear your house apart . 

Since I have started doing home repair and reading the building code for myself I have been stunned at how many houses have lots of things that don't meet code, even things that were most likely done by a professional. So, if you are worried about things not being insured because of the slightest infraction, don't look too closely at things in your house . Also, determining whether something is "to code" can be a strange thing. When my house was built in the 60s things were different building code wise and lots of things in my house have been grandfathered in. So, even if my house was perfectly to code when it was built, it no longer is by modern standards. So, again, I don't think this is worth losing too much sleep over. It is good that we have standards, but it is not nearly as cut and dry as it might seem on the surface.


----------



## mass_burner (Dec 19, 2014)

TimfromMA said:


> Bought it in RI


How long does 1 canister look last? These are the green propane canisters you see in the camping isle?


----------



## TimfromMA (Dec 19, 2014)

I bought the hose to connect to a 20lb propane tank like the ones used on a gas grill. 


mass_burner said:


> How long does 1 canister look last? These are the green propane canisters you see in the camping isle?


----------



## mass_burner (Dec 19, 2014)

TimfromMA said:


> I bought the hose to connect to a 20lb propane tank like the ones used on a gas grill.


And you can use that inside the house safely?


----------



## Bioburner (Dec 19, 2014)

Bulk propane containers are not allowed in living structures!? I seen what a pressure valve going off in a home does first hand.


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## TimfromMA (Dec 19, 2014)

This thing has a 20' hose with clear instructions that the tank remains outside


----------



## F4jock (Dec 19, 2014)

woodmakesheat said:


> Every time I see this thread pop up, I think...


Heh! My reaction exactly!


----------



## Bioburner (Dec 19, 2014)

Gasoline around $2.25 but diesel is still $3.50


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## F4jock (Dec 19, 2014)

TimfromMA said:


> This thing has a 20' hose with clear instructions that the tank remains outside


Yup. This, as far as I know. Is the only way to do it legally but I'm not sure if this is true on all cases. Check local laws.


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## moey (Dec 19, 2014)

jintoreedwine said:


> As someone who likes to do their own home repair, I find these sorts of things troubling. I think all of these insurance issues and local laws are actually having a negative impact in some cases. I believe people who, like me, research a job very carefully and would otherwise do everything to code because it is the right thing to do get scared by the prospect of insurance issues or the fines from the town and people who just don't care, still don't care, and go ahead and do a cruddy job.



I dont think its the norm you read some story on the web and it becomes propagated. Ive known several folks who made claims on their home owners policy and there was never any sort of questions on this issue. Although I can understand a insurance companies side to, you do something flagrantly wrong and your house catches fire why should they pay for your stupidness. At the end of the day if they want to reject a claim they can and you have to lawyer up.


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## mass_burner (Dec 19, 2014)

TimfromMA said:


> This thing has a 20' hose with clear instructions that the tank remains outside



But you can use it with the 1 LB canister indoors.



> Mr. Heater's indoor safe propane Buddy Heaters have become America's Most Popular Portable Heaters...


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## TimfromMA (Dec 19, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> But you can use it with the 1 LB canister indoors.



True but I like the big tanks since they last longer and I already have a bunch for my various outdoor propane appliances.


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## mass_burner (Dec 21, 2014)

TimfromMA said:


> True but I like the big tanks since they last longer and I already have a bunch for my various outdoor propane appliances.


I was trying to find out how long it last when using the small bottle. Have you use one?


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## Bioburner (Dec 21, 2014)

Small bottle is 1 pound of gas, , a gallon of propain is about 91,500 btu per gallon and a gallon is 4.2 pounds. I have several sunflower heaters and that the low heat setting is10k. so about 2 hours on low setting.


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## TimfromMA (Dec 21, 2014)

No, I havent use it with the 1lb bottles.


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## F4jock (Dec 21, 2014)

TimfromMA said:


> No, I havent use it with the 1lb bottles.


You'd have to be really rich. . . . .


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## TimfromMA (Dec 21, 2014)

From the box the heater comes in.


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## F4jock (Dec 21, 2014)

TimfromMA said:


> From the box the heater comes in.


Heating capacity =~ 400 sq ft. . . . . Big Buddy 18 000 BTU. Whoopee!


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## rona (Dec 21, 2014)

bags said:


> Ha hahahaha Ha HA! You made me laugh big time. Beautiful thought!
> 
> I will pay for what makes sense but I will do whatever I can to keep warm and put it to the energy kings. Even if using pellets might cost a little more than oil or whatever. At this point it is just as much about principle as it is money. I am so done with that game it isn't even funny. If solar wasn't so expensive and more refined I'd have those bastards paying me each month.
> 
> ...


  Its funny watching people complain about 10 degrees cooler in their bedrooms then where the stove is. They forget so easily back when they were young but I remember waking up and seeing frost on the rafters and nails. That was common back then and we all survived and managed to live a good life. Never heard of a flu shot either. or bottled water for that matter.  There was a fuel oil stove in the middle of the house  or a coal furnace in the basement with a big square register in the middle of the room where the heat could come up.  We could stand on the register or in front of that fuel oil heater to get war.  Or for the fastest way stand in front of the wood cookstove and open the oven.


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## F4jock (Dec 21, 2014)

rona said:


> Its funny watching people complain about 10 degrees cooler in their bedrooms then where the stove is. They forget so easily back when they were young but I remember waking up and seeing frost on the rafters and nails. That was common back then and we all survived and managed to live a good life. Never heard of a flu shot either. or bottled water for that matter.  There was a fuel oil stove in the middle of the house  or a coal furnace in the basement with a big square register in the middle of the room where the heat could come up.  We could stand on the register or in front of that fuel oil heater to get war.  Or for the fastest way stand in front of the wood cookstove and open the oven.


Yeah! These kids have it soft today! I remember walking to school uphill both ways in 90 degree heat through three feet of snow in 50 mph winds with 70 lbs of books! And that was after slopping the hogs, milking the cows, feeding the chickens and shearing the sheep! Boy, do I remember that wonderful day we got electricity and indoor plumbing!


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## bags (Dec 21, 2014)

They don't know how to spell soft either. The electronics does that for them.


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## BrotherBart (Dec 21, 2014)

Dad swore the first words he remembered hearing after he was born in 1914 were "They don't make cars like they used to, farmers just can't make a living anymore and these kids today will never amount to anything.".


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## bags (Dec 21, 2014)

I'm 45 and the wife is a HS chemistry teacher. The smart kids can't handle basic math without a device or calculator. It's amazing just how much the younger generation has changed from when I was in school. IMO they need to have a reality check and detach themselves from their fantasy land lives of gaming. We limit our kids and make them spend time outside. When I was a kid we avoided being in the house all day even in crappy weather hot or cold. Now you have to pull teeth to get them outside when it's sunny and 70.

Guess the central HVAC and plethora of TV channels and unlimited games have spoiled them to say the least. Throwing news papers, cutting grass, and shoveling snow......What's that? Work or something close. I think the younger generations are in for a very rude awakening one day.


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## woodmakesheat (Dec 21, 2014)

I think the same about my kids and their generation. I remember the old guys saying the same about me and my generation when I was a kid as well. I do wonder how they'll survive when something breaks in their house and they realize that it costs money to fix things. I'll probably get a phone call. lol


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## Doug MacIVER (Dec 21, 2014)

parents bought their first house when I was 5, in 1954. heat at night set at 55* and every bedroom had a window open.  two wool blankets and the bed spread if you needed it.
today we have the wood stove 24/7 and  one zone set at 60*. it rarely comes on but we don't keep the bedroom windows open.? have a day


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## Jason845845 (Dec 21, 2014)

bags said:


> I'm 45 and the wife is a HS chemistry teacher. The smart kids can't handle basic math without a device or calculator. It's amazing just how much the younger generation has changed from when I was in school. IMO they need to have a reality check and detach themselves from their fantasy land lives of gaming. We limit our kids and make them spend time outside. When I was a kid we avoided being in the house all day even in crappy weather hot or cold. Now you have to pull teeth to get them outside when it's sunny and 70.
> 
> Guess the central HVAC and plethora of TV channels and unlimited games have spoiled them to say the least. Throwing news papers, cutting grass, and shoveling snow......What's that? Work or something close. I think the younger generations are in for a very rude awakening one day.



GET OFF MY LAWN!


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## SKOAL MAN (Dec 21, 2014)

Go on Facebook book and post your crap! This is a forum about wood pellet stoves!


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## bags (Dec 21, 2014)

Somebody rolled out of the wrong side of the bed this morning.......


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## TimfromMA (Dec 22, 2014)

F4jock said:


> Heating capacity =~ 400 sq ft. . . . . Big Buddy 18 000 BTU. Whoopee!



Like I said, this was only meant to heat my garage when I want to work in there which it does quite nicely.


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## adam6979 (Dec 23, 2014)

I wont get rid of the pellet in favor of oil... well if it goes back to 99 cents a gallon I may consider it... I have had such a bad taste in my mouth from the oil companies I will never go back. I may though consider propane.... wife wants a propane stove anyway.... but even so I'll keep the pellet stoves.


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## adam6979 (Dec 23, 2014)

bags said:


> Ha hahahaha Ha HA! You made me laugh big time. Beautiful thought!
> 
> I will pay for what makes sense but I will do whatever I can to keep warm and put it to the energy kings. Even if using pellets might cost a little more than oil or whatever. At this point it is just as much about principle as it is money. I am so done with that game it isn't even funny. If solar wasn't so expensive and more refined I'd have those bastards paying me each month.
> 
> ...




Ha ! Ha ! HA! Same thing here. I put in electric (all I could afford) the first winter. $500-$800 electric bills. Next season did pellet stoves - electric bill dropped to $140's... in January electric company replaced meter with a lock. Then I got a letter stating they are monitoring my usage at the street level... then the techs came out to change the meter again... I met them outside this time brought them in showed them the old heaters (220V, 4000W X4) and the two new stoves... they apologized and went on to their next victim.... it was too funny!


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## TimfromMA (Dec 23, 2014)

I wouldn't have told them anything and just let them keep running around trying to figure out how I was cheating the system.


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## bogieb (Dec 23, 2014)

adam6979 said:


> Ha ! Ha ! HA! Same thing here. I put in electric (all I could afford) the first winter. $500-$800 electric bills. Next season did pellet stoves - electric bill dropped to $140's... in January electric company replaced meter with a lock. Then I got a letter stating they are monitoring my usage at the street level... then the techs came out to change the meter again... I met them outside this time brought them in showed them the old heaters (220V, 4000W X4) and the two new stoves... they apologized and went on to their next victim.... it was too funny!



I'm waiting for the propane company to insinuate that I am having someone else deliver (the tank belongs to a specific company). Last winter I was going thru 300+ gallons every month. I got my first delivery since last February (when I had the Harman installed), and I had them only put in 150 gallons - not fill it. They haven't said anything yet though.


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## alternativeheat (Dec 23, 2014)

adam6979 said:


> I wont get rid of the pellet in favor of oil... well if it goes back to 99 cents a gallon I may consider it... I have had such a bad taste in my mouth from the oil companies I will never go back. I may though consider propane.... wife wants a propane stove anyway.... but even so I'll keep the pellet stoves.


Propane here just went up again. We got a delivery last week, $4.85 a gal. Before I bought the pellet stove I had considered a gas free standing living room stove, dodged that bullet ( though it would have been easy to clean!). The wife  will have nothing to do with anything but a gas range in the kitchen, she has one of these commercial rated stoves with the heavy cast iron burners and center grill, relatively new and loves it.. But it sure seems this SE corner of Ma. is so out of line on propane cost with the rest of the country it's ridiculous. At least gauging from this site anyway, I come on here and see people complaining about $2 plus propane and think , if only that.


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## F4jock (Dec 23, 2014)

alternativeheat said:


> Propane here just went up again. We got a delivery last week, $4.85 a gal. Before I bought the pellet stove I had considered a gas free standing living room stove, dodged that bullet ( though it would have been easy to clean!). The wife  will have nothing to do with anything but a gas range in the kitchen, she has one of these commercial rated stoves with the heavy cast iron burners and center grill, relatively new and loves it.. But it sure seems this SE corner of Ma. is so out of line on propane cost with the rest of the country it's ridiculous. At least gauging from this site anyway, I come on here and see people complaining about $2 plus propane and think , if only that.


I pay about what you do because I use very little except when the genny runs.


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## alternativeheat (Dec 23, 2014)

F4jock said:


> I pay about what you do because I use very little except when the genny runs.


Oh good. Just sayin, ya know. The truck drives by the house about twice a week, so every 4 months he stops in . It's not like he is going out of his way.


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## SKOAL MAN (Dec 23, 2014)

Just got propane fill up yesterday at $2.23 gallon here in Ontario!  I instantly hit the off button on the pellet stove! It is now an evening room heater until the price of propane goes back up.


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## SKOAL MAN (Dec 23, 2014)

SKOAL MAN said:


> Just got propane fill up yesterday at $2.23 gallon here in Ontario!  I instantly hit the off button on the pellet stove! It is now an evening room heater until the price of propane goes back up.


Don't mean to rub salt in the wounds here, but at the current exchange rate that's $1.87 US a gallon!


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## jim2074 (Dec 23, 2014)

SKOAL MAN said:


> Don't mean to rub salt in the wounds here, but at the current exchange rate that's $1.87 US a gallon!


In Northern WI.  $1.59  a gallon yesterday.  Last year it shot up to over $5.00 per gallon.


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## SKOAL MAN (Dec 23, 2014)

jim2074 said:


> In Northern WI.  $1.59  a gallon yesterday.  Last year it shot up to over $5.00 per gallon.


Jesus, and I thought I got a good deal! Hard to justify burning pellets at that price.


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## Bioburner (Dec 23, 2014)

SKOAL MAN said:


> Just got propane fill up yesterday at $2.23 gallon here in Ontario!  I instantly hit the off button on the pellet stove! It is now an evening room heater until the price of propane goes back up.


So your paying over 7.75 a bag for pellets ?


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## SKOAL MAN (Dec 23, 2014)

Bioburner said:


> So your paying over 7.75 a bag for pellets ?


That is dumb logic! The most propane I have ever used in one month was 438 liters (116 gal) this includes hot water and bbq, at today's price that's $217!  The next month, that wasn't as cold I burned 55 bags of pellets at $5 bag = $275 + hydro for heater in the bedroom so I didn' freeze my ass off +$50 ( being generous here)+ propane for hot water and BBQ and hydro to run the stove!  Basically what I'm getting at is $217 max for the furnace or $350 for the pellet stove with heater and hot water!


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## Bioburner (Dec 23, 2014)

I was just trying to calculate propane to pellet conversion. Propane at 91,000 btu per gallon and pellets at 8,000 per pound-320,000 btu per bag. Divide 320,00 by 91,000 close to 3.5 gallon per bag.


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## SKOAL MAN (Dec 23, 2014)

Bioburner said:


> I was just trying to calculate propane to pellet conversion. Propane at 91,000 btu per gallon and pellets at 8,000 per pound-320,000 btu per bag. Divide 320,00 by 91,000 close to 3.5 gallon per bag.


Btu's don't mean anything if they aren't distributed through the house properly, also that calculation doesn't take into consideration that the furnace is 97% efficient and the pellet stove is only about 80%.


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## bags (Dec 23, 2014)

97% efficiency on your furnace? What is it?

My P68 pellet stove is 89% but most are about 80% or a bit better.


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## SKOAL MAN (Dec 23, 2014)

Sorry, I was wrong with the # it's 96% http://www.ruud.com/product/gas-furnaces-ultra-series-up-to-96-afue-modulating-ecm-motor with this thermostat that further more improves the effiency http://www.rheem.com/product/thermostats-500-series-communicating-programmable-thermostats


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## bags (Dec 23, 2014)

That's still way good. I wouldn't lose sleep over 1%. 96% is excellent. I haven't seen or messed with natural gas / propane furnaces for over a decade. Think the best I had was 92 or 94% in my last house and that was good when I installed those new units. Only 4% going out the vent is great. I'd be interested in that unit if we have NG out here. NG and propane just need a slightly different set up but are the same furnaces.

I could get propane here but by the time I invest in everything as luck would have it the prices would probably hike back up as high as giraffe nuts.


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## Bioburner (Dec 23, 2014)

Sounds close to the Amana I bought for the house but never installed. Crosslink solved distribution in basement anyway. Another stove upstairs for when it gets below 0


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## Dgopetactical (Dec 23, 2014)

These low prices won't last for ever, all it takes is a whale fart in the gulf of Mexico and prices will go though the roof, as far as nat gas/LP Pennsylvanina just elected a democrat gov. He is already announcing to tax the hell out of the shale drilling to help the "kids". All this is temporary. Do what you have to do to keep your family budget in check, just don't sell your pellet stoves anytime soon.
Denny


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## bags (Dec 23, 2014)

Pellets are the way for me to go now hands down. It was a good year for me to buy two stoves but everyone's situation is different. When I installed my new Carrier high efficiency heat pump that sort of made dollar sense at that time vs. oil or propane. Still not good heat but it wasn't off the hook costly either. A year or two later and that changed and it's only been getting worse.

Funny thing, a neighbor about a half a mile away stopped by this evening. Transferred for work from Massachusetts about 1 1/2 yrs. ago. Walked in and said what are you thinking? while he was looking at the two pellets stoves. Said they quit using theirs up there because they were paying close to $400 a ton and left it when they sold their house. When I said I paid $224 a ton his wife now wants one again. They had one for a decade or so before. They've been using primarily a wood stove and their oil central system lightly. Wood is plentiful here, easy to get, but the low cost on pellets had her attention big time. Looks like I'll be helping them install one soon.


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## SKOAL MAN (Dec 23, 2014)

Dgopetactical said:


> These low prices won't last for ever, all it takes is a whale fart in the gulf of Mexico and prices will go though the roof, as far as nat gas/LP Pennsylvanina just elected a democrat gov. He is already announcing to tax the hell out of the shale drilling to help the "kids". All this is temporary. Do what you have to do to keep your family budget in check, just don't sell your pellet stoves anytime soon.
> Denny


It's not going anywhere! There is nothing I enjoy more than Sunday afternoon laying on the couch after a six pack, watching the Bills loose again, with that puppy cranked! Two eyes open the first quarter, one eye open the second, no eyes open through half time and third. And then screaming at the TV in the fourth quarter soaking wet and thirsty!


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## bags (Dec 23, 2014)

What you almost have to do these days is have multiple ways to heat and beat them at their own game. I think that is the only solid plan I can come up with. I have several now and always looking for others. They are going to get you coming and going no matter what. Some how.


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## Pellet-King (Dec 24, 2014)

Late summer was all set to have a 98% AFUE Lennox Gas furnace installed, Yankee Gas is my Gas co, they advertise FREE line to home installation, well after calling them and told them I live on a state owned road, they said no freebie for you!, that'll be $6000 to run a 30 foot line to my house....No Thanks!


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## alternativeheat (Dec 24, 2014)

SKOAL MAN said:


> It's not going anywhere! There is nothing I enjoy more than Sunday afternoon laying on the couch after a six pack, watching the Bills loose again, with that puppy cranked! Two eyes open the first quarter, one eye open the second, no eyes open through half time and third. And then screaming at the TV in the fourth quarter soaking wet and thirsty!





Pellet-King said:


> Late summer was all set to have a 98% AFUE Lennox Gas furnace installed, Yankee Gas is my Gas co, they advertise FREE line to home installation, well after calling them and told them I live on a state owned road, they said no freebie for you!, that'll be $6000 to run a 30 foot line to my house....No Thanks!


Ours is about 120 ft with a 6 mo wait for the install. Didn't even bother with the quote. Actually it might be a longer run even, I think the main is on the other side of the highway.


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## Jason845845 (Dec 24, 2014)

alternativeheat said:


> Ours is about 120 ft with a 6 mo wait for the install. Didn't even bother with the quote. Actually it might be a longer run even, I think the main is on the other side of the highway.



Here in New York, if there is a distribution gas main with in 150' of your house, the gas company has no choice but to install a line to your house at no charge regardless of what is in the way.


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## F4jock (Dec 24, 2014)

Dgopetactical said:


> These low prices won't last for ever, all it takes is a whale fart in the gulf of Mexico and prices will go though the roof, as far as nat gas/LP Pennsylvanina just elected a democrat gov. He is already announcing to tax the hell out of the shale drilling to help the "kids". All this is temporary. Do what you have to do to keep your family budget in check, just don't sell your pellet stoves anytime soon.
> Denny


You are doubtless correct. Wolf has already started whining about the "deficit" he allegedly inherited. Taxes are gonna go up to finance his giveaways and the gas tax he yelped about won't be rolled back either.


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## Doug MacIVER (Dec 24, 2014)

as of today, the current oil price is $1.10/gal lower than my average last winter. a cool  $825.00 savings. as I've said most of that saving goes right back out the door to Nasty Grid. MERRY CHRISTMAS.


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## Wilbur Feral (Dec 24, 2014)

F4jock said:


> You are doubtless correct. Wolf has already started whining about the "deficit" he allegedly inherited. Taxes are gonna go up to finance his giveaways and the gas tax he yelped about won't be rolled back either.


I just can't resist commenting, even though I am not going to get into a long, drawn out battle with you on this...  The new administration in PA has inherited a hot mess, and will have much to address.  I tend to vote for candidates on both sides of the aisle, and have a mix of friends and business contacts on both as well.  The  consensus (and vote tally) has been that the outgoing governor has done less for this state than almost any governor in recent history.  You had to work hard to lose as a Republican in the recent election, yet he managed to do so (thankfully) because of his record.

So for once, let's see what this new guy can do regardless of party.  Enough is enough with this waving of the party flag at all costs.  The guy isn't even in office yet - give him a shot and let's see what happens if we listen to what is being proposed and judge ideas on merit, before we make up our minds.


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## F4jock (Dec 24, 2014)

Wilbur Feral said:


> I just can't resist commenting, even though I am not going to get into a long, drawn out battle with you on this...  The new administration in PA has inherited a hot mess, and will have much to address.  I tend to vote for candidates on both sides of the aisle, and have a mix of friends and business contacts on both as well.  The  consensus (and vote tally) has been that the outgoing governor has done less for this state than almost any governor in recent history.  You had to work hard to lose as a Republican in the recent election, yet he managed to do so (thankfully) because of his record.
> 
> So for once, let's see what this new guy can do regardless of party.  Enough is enough with this waving of the party flag at all costs.  The guy isn't even in office yet - give him a shot and let's see what happens if we listen to what is being proposed and judge ideas on merit, before we make up our minds.


F.Y.I. I'm a registered Independent but I've seen and heard too much of this type of rhetoric and it's results to swallow any of it. Wolf has already stated that a drilling tax alone won't cover his programs. Can you say "Tax increase"? Let's revisit this in a year. Merry Christmas!


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## bogieb (Dec 24, 2014)

SKOAL MAN said:


> Just got propane fill up yesterday at $2.23 gallon here in Ontario!  I instantly hit the off button on the pellet stove! It is now an evening room heater until the price of propane goes back up.



I paid 3.11/gal a couple of weeks ago for propane. Since I have an older coiler (circa 1980 or so), it most likely isn't very efficient. Last year I went thru 300+ gallons per month just to heat my main floor to 64 degrees (and the bedrooms were colder because they are over the garage). My last fill up last year was at 5.59/gallon (can you say house payment to heat for one month?)

Pellet stoves are still way cheaper to heat with - and I get a heated basement too - not a finished basement, but maybe someday. One day I will have to upgrade the boiler just because they eventually start leaking (ask me how I know), and I use it for if I go on vacation, but for the cost of a new boiler and propane, it makes more sense for me to use pellets (and the house is now 75)

Hey, go with what makes sense to you. And believe me, if I had NG going thru this area, I would be all over it. Used to have it in KS, at  that is cheap to heat with.


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## briansol (Dec 24, 2014)

NG is cheap.   for now.   It too will have it's spike.   The only way to hedge the bet is to have one of everything and burn what's cheaper when it's cheaper.  But then once you realize you spent 50 grand on all these appliances, the hedge ROI turns into a very long time.


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## Wilbur Feral (Dec 24, 2014)

F4jock said:


> Let's revisit this in a year. Merry Christmas!



Fair enough.  And Merry Christmas!  A bit of a warm and wet one, but will take a turn cooler next week.


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## Don2222 (Dec 24, 2014)

Bassmantweed said:


> I know it's a long term play and it will pay off in the end but I was just curious with pellets at $5.50 and oil at $2.60,  my payoff point just went out a few years I think.


See pic below click to enlarge:
1 bag of pellets = 2.5 gallons of oil.
So $5.50 = 2.5 x $2.60 = $6.50
So it is still $1.00 cheaper per bag of pellets!


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## Bioburner (Dec 24, 2014)

Well we compared it to what the neighbors were paying last February for propain at over $5. Local propane tank farm is still empty.


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## SKOAL MAN (Dec 24, 2014)

Don2222 said:


> See pic below click to enlarge:
> 1 bag of pellets = 2.5 gallons of oil.
> So $5.50 = 2.5 x $2.60 = $6.50
> So it is still $1.00 cheaper per bag of pellets!


So with this logic a $4800 pellet stove will be paid off after you burn 4800 bags of pellets or 96 tons! That's 24 years at 4 tons a year, lol!!


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## hossthehermit (Dec 25, 2014)

alternativeheat said:


> Is anyone else not seeing text in Tony's replies because I'm not ? On both one computer of mine and my cell. I haven't tried the other computer.


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## Don2222 (Dec 25, 2014)

SKOAL MAN said:


> So with this logic a $4800 pellet stove will be paid off after you burn 4800 bags of pellets or 96 tons! That's 24 years at 4 tons a year, lol!!



I got this used Enviro pellet stove for $300 dollars that I fixed up. Payback is much faster!


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## Rock Crusher (Dec 25, 2014)

Bogieb, it's a shame propane has remained high up in some locations.  I just signed a PO at work Tuesday and propane was $1.319 per gallon.  Sure wish energy prices would equalize, gas below $2.00 per gallon in the mid-west, $2.70 here.  Anyway-MERRY CHRISTMAS ALL .


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## Wilbur Feral (Dec 25, 2014)

Don2222 said:


> I got this used Enviro pellet stove for $300 dollars that I fixed up. Payback is much faster!


Excellent work.  Now a nice looking stove!


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## bogieb (Dec 25, 2014)

Rock Crusher said:


> Bogieb, it's a shame propane has remained high up in some locations.  I just signed a PO at work Tuesday and propane was $1.319 per gallon.  Sure wish energy prices would equalize, gas below $2.00 per gallon in the mid-west, $2.70 here.  Anyway-MERRY CHRISTMAS ALL .



Well, every bit of propane we get is either by rail from Canada, or by truck from down south. We pay high prices, paying for transportation, because of NIMBY people. That is the reason NG isn't available too, except for a few very southern towns - people oppose the running of underground NG pipe that would bring it up further north (further, meaning 30 miles up from the boarder in my case). They say their property values will plummet. So I guess the sight of the propane and oil tanks doesn't detract from value but unseen pipeline will  . Same case for in-town wind energy the town next to mine, people don't want it in THEIR town, but would support it elsewhere (some have suggest Audubon and other sanctuary property - hu?). I can understand opposition to Northern Pass because that is all tourist country there, and tourists come for the scenery, not to see windmills on the top of our mountain ranges.

I did pay 2.30 for gas yesterday though - woohoo! Regular price was 2.40, but I have a discount card that takes 10 cents off every gallon I buy.


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## Bioburner (Dec 25, 2014)

I would bet that the discount gas cards are going to be reduced soon. Gas dropped again yesterday to 2.19. Almost the same price as propane.


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## TimfromMA (Dec 25, 2014)

I was going to pick up a second stove for downstairs but the recent drop in oil prices has made it more economical just to use oil heat down there.


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## bcarton (Dec 25, 2014)

bogieb said:


> That is the reason NG isn't available too, except for a few very southern towns - people oppose the running of underground NG pipe that would bring it up further north (further, meaning 30 miles up from the boarder in my case)



Gas pipeline runs straight through our town, and they're talking about running a second pipeline  We were never given any choice about this, it was a done deal at the federal level when it was announced and rapidly built 17-18 years ago.  NOT EVEN ONE residence, business, or local government building in this town can access the NG in that pipeline. Not even one.


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## bogieb (Dec 26, 2014)

bcarton said:


> Gas pipeline runs straight through our town, and they're talking about running a second pipeline  We were never given any choice about this, it was a done deal at the federal level when it was announced and rapidly built 17-18 years ago.  NOT EVEN ONE residence, business, or local government building in this town can access the NG in that pipeline. Not even one.



Well that truly sucks on many levels. I do agree that people should have a say on what goes on/through their own land - and if it goes thru the people/town should benefit from it; Another reason I can understand opposition to Northern Pass, all of that energy goes elsewhere, and none benefits this state.


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## adam6979 (Dec 26, 2014)

Don2222 said:


> See pic below click to enlarge:
> 1 bag of pellets = 2.5 gallons of oil.
> So $5.50 = 2.5 x $2.60 = $6.50
> So it is still $1.00 cheaper per bag of pellets!


And i'd like to add - spill a barrel of oil on the ground and see what happens... spill a ton of pellets??? get the shovel and use them!


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## adam6979 (Dec 26, 2014)

TimfromMA said:


> I was going to pick up a second stove for downstairs but the recent drop in oil prices has made it more economical just to use oil heat down there.


I agree with you Tim, but we both know it wont last  I actually have plans for buying a third one next spring and then hopefully a forth for the shop before next winter. Going to keep the shop at 50 instead of -5!


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## Bioburner (Dec 26, 2014)

Took a picture of local tank farm. Those gauges are not reading full! Don't ask me why I cant post the picture correctly


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## prairielife (Dec 27, 2014)

turbotboz said:


> I'm curious if propane prices drop inline with oil. I'm watching this link over the winter. http://www.eia.gov/petroleum/heatingoilpropane/#itn-tabs-1
> 
> Although I already my pellet supply for the winter and propane would need to be WELL under $2/gal to make me turn on the furnace.



$1.70/gal here at last tank top off of 250 gallons a few weeks ago. We upgraded the propane furnace to a variable fan/modulated burner model this year and it's doing more duty than the pellet stove, but it was the exact opposite two years ago with propane over $3/gallon. 

The swings will continue. Best to have multiple heat sources in the long haul. 

Will enjoy laying in a significant stash of pellets with low production and transportation costs next summer, for when the graph goes the other direction.


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## TimfromMA (Dec 27, 2014)

Based on current consumption levels, I don't think I will need to buy pellets next year. I will have enough pellets left for another complete heating season.


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## RickNH (Dec 28, 2014)

TimfromMA said:


> Based on current consumption levels, I don't think I will need to buy pellets next year. I will have enough pellets left for another complete heating season.


I'm sorry about my ignorance about this as I am new to pellets .. however ...   can you safely and economically use pellets that are a year or two old?  I have read that the longer you store them the more humidity the absorb and become less effective ...  Could someone please comment on this?  Just to tring to keep this post on topic .. oil here in seacoast NH is now approaching 2.49.  with $6.00 / bag cost for cubex ..  my break even (oil vs pellets) is almost equivalent.
(if 1 bag of pellets = 2.5 gallons oil ..  (pellets = 6.00 &  oil = 6.23 : all other factors equal)  So following this logic ... I should keep with the pellets so they don't go bad  .. right - not so I save/breakeven on money?


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## bogieb (Dec 28, 2014)

RickNH said:


> I'm sorry about my ignorance about this as I am new to pellets .. however ...   can you safely and economically use pellets that are a year or two old?  I have read that the longer you store them the more humidity the absorb and become less effective ...  Could someone please comment on this?  Just to tring to keep this post on topic .. oil here in seacoast NH is now approaching 2.49.  with $6.00 / bag cost for cubex ..  my break even (oil vs pellets) is almost equivalent.
> 
> I had about 20 bags left over from last heating season and stored them in my basement on a pallet. My basement is fairly damp and the pallet is in the corner that is the dampest.
> 
> The bags I stored were Currans, which ran pretty good in my Harman last year. This year I ran those remaining bags, and they ran just fine. Then I got deliveries of this year's Currans in October, and they run like chit. Huge ash, and very heavy residue. Other pellets run fine, with little ash. Tells me that last year's Currans were a better batch than this years and that storing them in a dampish basement did not have a negative effect on the pellets. However, I don't think the Currans bags have those little air holes in them that some pellet bags have (I know the Maine's Choice has those holes), so that may make a difference. Sorry, I'm not home, otherwise I would go check some of those Currans bags.


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## bags (Dec 28, 2014)

Bioburner said:


> Took a picture of local tank farm. Those gauges are not reading full! Don't ask me why I cant post the picture correctly


Bio, I have had the same cocked pic problems. What I figure out was by turning the phone sideways instead of up and down while taking pics they remain right side up. With my IPhone anyway. Somehow it matters.

Back on topic: Screw the oil Co.'s! Look at the price drop. Not complaining about that. Production hasn't changed that drastically or we could have been in this $2.00 per gallon same situation years ago with taking care of business. It's all politics and BS! How many years have we been gouged now? I just paid $2.03 a gal. for gas X-Mas Eve. I also remember paying about $1.89 a gallon in 2001.

Diesel is still higher than gas and it was always cheaper years back. Fuel oil and diesel are almost one in the same. So how is it that fuel oil is still yet cheaper than diesel? And BOTH are a bi-product of refining gas.


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## TimfromMA (Dec 28, 2014)

RickNH said:


> I'm sorry about my ignorance about this as I am new to pellets .. however ...   can you safely and economically use pellets that are a year or two old?  I have read that the longer you store them the more humidity the absorb and become less effective ...  Could someone please comment on this?  Just to tring to keep this post on topic .. oil here in seacoast NH is now approaching 2.49.  with $6.00 / bag cost for cubex ..  my break even (oil vs pellets) is almost equivalent.
> (if 1 bag of pellets = 2.5 gallons oil ..  (pellets = 6.00 &  oil = 6.23 : all other factors equal)  So following this logic ... I should keep with the pellets so they don't go bad  .. right - not so I save/breakeven on money?



As long as they are kept dry, pellets will keep forever. Ive burned pellets before that were more than 2 years old and they burned great. I guess it all depends on how you store them.


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## Bioburner (Dec 28, 2014)

Tried using new smart phone to take picture. Won't beat a cheap Nikon pocket camera.
Diesel is heavily taxed to pay for roads. Its about $1.50 more per gallon than gas here in central MN and the Gov declared a emergency to allow drivers to drive longer to get more fuel up here as the Bakken crude is causing shortages of it and propain as the pipe and rail is used to get the refined product up is instead pumping crude south.


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## Bioburner (Dec 28, 2014)

Cool dry place like most of the pellet bags state. Burnt a bag yesterday that was three years old.


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## bags (Dec 28, 2014)

TimfromMA said:


> As long as they are kept dry, pellets will keep forever. Ive burned pellets before that were more than 2 years old and they burned great. I guess it all depends on how you store them.


I think condensation can be as bad as rain over a prolonged period. I noticed a decent amount on some bags on a ton I have which is covered well but open. The pellets in the bag will hold a cooler temp and when it warms up and rains after a colder day the humidity of moist air likes to cling to them. Just a small observation I recently made. They are in a covered area off the side of the barn with an open side. No rain can get to them at all. They were fine but the bags were wet. Might rethink my storage some now.


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## TimfromMA (Dec 28, 2014)

Mine are all in my basement.


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## Wilbur Feral (Dec 28, 2014)

I store mine in a shed we built under our second story deck (house on hill).  It is dry but subject to outdoor fluctuations in temperature and humidity throughout the year.  I always have somewhere near a quarter to half ton left at the end of the year, and burn those pellets first at the start of the next season.  Have never had a problem and notice no difference in performance from the previous year.


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## RickNH (Dec 28, 2014)

Mine are all in my basement along with a geospring and a dehumidifier for summer. It is currently 63 degrees and 58 % humidity. Is this OK ?


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## Bioburner (Dec 28, 2014)

RickNH said:


> Mine are all in my basement along with a geospring and a dehumidifier for summer. It is currently 63 degrees and 58 % humidity. Is this OK ?


Off the floor? If so should be good and you have no major temp changes like outside storage to collect moisture.


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## RickNH (Dec 28, 2014)

Bioburner said:


> Off the floor? If so should be good and you have no major temp changes like outside storage to collect moisture.



yes off of the floor.


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## chken (Dec 28, 2014)

Should be no problem, my 5+ tons are also in my basement with my Geo and my dehumid, and haven't had any issues.


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## SKOAL MAN (Dec 28, 2014)

It's amazing how quickly posts get off topic here!


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## bags (Dec 28, 2014)

SKOAL MAN said:


> It's amazing how quickly posts get off topic here!


What topic are you on? Dude, this is all part of the learning process for many people and people do and will stray a bit. Big deal. The moderators here do great job when it gets way off topic and throw out a reminder to get back on topic or they shut it down. Let them do their jobs. I notice you constantly chime in with BS and negative criticism so I will step up and say something.

The thread is about pellet stoves and oil prices and cost savings of one or the other. We are talking about pellets so I'd say it isn't too far off. Burn the oil if it floats your boat.


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## SKOAL MAN (Dec 28, 2014)

bags said:


> What topic are you on? Dude, this is all part of the learning process for many people and people do and will stray a bit. Big deal. The moderators here do great job when it gets way off topic and throw out a reminder to get back on topic or they shut it down. Let them do their jobs. I notice you constantly chime in with BS and negative criticism so I will step up and say something.
> 
> The thread is about pellet stoves and oil prices and cost savings of one or the other. We are talking about pellets so I'd say it isn't too far off. Burn the oil if it floats your boat.


Another reason why I cancelled my Facebook, rambling! I just realized that I can block people who post useless information, awesome!


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## twodogs02 (Dec 28, 2014)

$1.24/gallon propane fill up last week in Upstate, NY. Unbelievable. Using mostly gas now unless temps drop below 10 degrees


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## Jason845845 (Dec 30, 2014)

I've been using oil since Saturday as I'm "between stoves".  Every time the furnace fires up it just horrifies me how much oil I go through to heat this tiny house.  New stove being delivered and installed today, thank god!


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## TimfromMA (Dec 30, 2014)

I just finished off my first ton of the season.


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## bags (Dec 30, 2014)

TimfromMA said:


> I just finished off my first ton of the season.


That is doing well! What size place are you doing if you don't mind? Wish I could get that average. Also are you using any other heat source? Thanks.


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## Rock Crusher (Dec 30, 2014)

On 12th bag of pellets, 1/2 cord of wood, zero gallons oil=warm house and lots of smiles!


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## TimfromMA (Dec 30, 2014)

bags said:


> That is doing well! What size place are you doing if you don't mind? Wish I could get that average. Also are you using any other heat source? Thanks.



My stove is located on the main upper living level. my main level is about 1800 sqft. I keep the oil thermostat on my lower level set to about 55. Upstairs, the stove thermostat is on 69 when we are home and 65 when we are away.


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## TimfromMA (Dec 30, 2014)

Big papa said:


> Hey bags I ran outta likes so I like your post man



I wasn't even aware that was possible. I guess I don't like alot of things.


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## zrtmatos (Dec 30, 2014)

Don2222 said:


> I got this used Enviro pellet stove for $300 dollars that I fixed up. Payback is much faster!


 Very nice reconditioning.


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## bags (Dec 30, 2014)

TimfromMA said:


> I wasn't even aware that was possible. I guess I don't like alot of things.


Ha ha ha! Tim, Thanks for the explanation. Ya LIKE that pellet heat now don't ya?


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## TimfromMA (Dec 30, 2014)

bags said:


> Ha ha ha! Tim, Thanks for the explanation. Ya LIKE that pellet heat now don't ya?



Pellet heat might be taking a vacation if oil goes much lower.


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## bags (Dec 30, 2014)

That's understandable. You have to do what makes economic sense. Subject to change daily of course. I hope oil keeps going down. Everyone has been gouged way too long as is.


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## CaptSpiff (Dec 30, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> According to the specs in my boiler, it uses .40 / gal per hour.  I imagine that's under ideal conditions when it was new. Is there any feasible way to measure it in operation?


The standard Oil Burner Head uses a replaceable nozzle which can be found in many local Home D's. The nozzle is rated by x.xx gal/hr and by the mist pattern it produces. The mist pattern is recommended by the manufacturer to best fill the firebox, and the rated gal/hr is assuming a 100psi constant pump pressure.

Your boiler/furnace has a Max Input rating on a steel plate label, and you can divide that by 140,000 for the absolute maximum allowable nozzle size.
Example: Old 160K Utica Boiler: 160000 / 140000 = 1.14 is the max allowed nozzle size.

Back in the day, I usually undersized by 10%, but would frequently go down by 25-30% if the customer complained of frequent boiler short cycling (on/off).

To answer your question, the best way to measure the supply rate is to install a small (1 1/2 inch ish) 200 psi pressure gauge on the pump port made for that purpose.

The gauge makes it easier to adjust the flame (only the air ratio remains) when the pump pressure is in spec. And it also gives advance warning of clogged filters when the needle starts vibrating.


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## CaptSpiff (Dec 30, 2014)

bcarton said:


> Gas pipeline runs straight through our town, and they're talking about running a second pipeline  We were never given any choice about this, it was a done deal at the federal level when it was announced and rapidly built 17-18 years ago.  NOT EVEN ONE residence, business, or local government building in this town can access the NG in that pipeline. Not even one.



Yup, done for the greater good.
Not every town gets an off-ramp from the Interstate. Grease baby!
Now shut up and pay your grease,... I mean taxes. 

** definition of "greater good" is what benefits the wigs in capitol city.

On a serious note, New England desperately needs 2 new supply pipelines (transmission pipelines). During last years cold snap the existing NG supply was withheld from industrial users, to ensure there would be enough for residential heating. Almost sent the electric sector (ISO-NE) into a tailspin looking for replacement energy. Coal piles were frozen, oil generators weren't even bidding in the market because the high fuel cost, came close to initiating rolling area blackouts. Consequences baby,... consequences.


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## briansol (Jan 2, 2015)

Im through a ton and a half already.    My stove sucks


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## Big papa (Jan 3, 2015)

briansol said:


> Im through a ton and a half already.    My stove sucks


That's where I'm at heating 2000 sqft with my stove doesn't sound too far off to me


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## Wilbur Feral (Jan 3, 2015)

At 92 bags heating just under 3000 SF.  Just made the switch to Hamers (from Presto) as the cold weather is hitting.  Up into 50's tomorrow for a day, so will clean the stoves as we prep for single digits. Nothing like some of you get, but cold enough for me!


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## briansol (Jan 4, 2015)

Big papa said:


> That's where I'm at heating 2000 sqft with my stove doesn't sound too far off to me


i've also used 3/4 of a 275 oil tank because my stove can't hang on its own.  and my house is 1400 sq feet, 1000 of which the stove has a level on (400 is below stove grade)


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## Big papa (Jan 4, 2015)

Well something is wrong there I haven't used any fuel oil and the wife keeps are house at 75 how are your windows doors insulation in the home


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## briansol (Jan 4, 2015)

My slider is leaky, but the house is pretty new (1997) and has all the thermo pane windows and such.  on medium, full on, my stove won't keep my house over 65.   and that's when it's not cold out.  drop below 20 and the furnace runs and runs...


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## Big papa (Jan 4, 2015)

Yeah it doesn't seem like it's working that well have you had a professional look at your stove


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## Bioburner (Jan 4, 2015)

Have you had a energy audit done with IR scan?


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## briansol (Jan 4, 2015)

yep....  my dealer's been here many times, had scott do my oak..  it's better now with the oak, but the stove still sucks.  lol   other people who have it like it.   maybe i got a lemon.

if i were planning to stay here in this house, i'd get a 2nd stove.

but i'm planning to move south in a couple years so its not worth it.

I don't need an audit to tell you my slider leaks like crazy and my windows are cold.   but i don't think anything else would do much better.


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## WiscWoody (Jan 4, 2015)

For what it's worth, I don't burn pellets... I have 2.2 cf epa wood stove that heats a large 3,000 sq foot home at temps down to -30f with little problem. Right now it is -12 with a north wind of 10-15 and I have to let the stove idle down or it would overheat the place. I do cover the north facing slider window with plastic every winter as it does leak a lot of air and the plastic always bulges inwards showing how leaky it is.


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## bags (Jan 4, 2015)

WiscWoody said:


> For what it's worth, I don't burn pellets... I have 2.2 cf epa wood stove that heats a large 3,000 sq foot home at temps down to -30f with little problem. Right now it is -12 with a north wind of 10-15 and I have to let the stove idle down or it would overheat the place. I do cover the north facing slider window with plastic every winter as it does leak a lot of air and the plastic always bulges inwards showing how leaky it is.


Might be a good cheap fix and help his stove out quite a bit. Might keep temps up well above where you are too.


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## WiscWoody (Jan 4, 2015)

bags said:


> Might be a good cheap fix and help his stove out quite a bit. Might keep temps up well above where you are too.


Even the best sliding deck or patio windows are notorious leakers. Up here where it gets very cold, if I didn't do my best to seal my north sliding deck window I figure I'd burn a good 1/3 more wood and I might not keep up with the heat on some cold and windy nights.


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## bags (Jan 4, 2015)

WiscWoody said:


> Even the best sliding deck or patio windows are notorious leakers. Up here where it gets very cold, if I didn't do my best to seal my north sliding deck window I figure I'd burn a good 1/3 more wood and I might not keep up with the heat on some cold and windy nights.


Agreed. Glass in general is a huge BTU killer. Pieces of glass that move are even worse. Cold air infiltration can make heating a place a exercise in futility.


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## SKOAL MAN (Jan 4, 2015)

The dumbass that built my house put 70% of the windows on the north side of the house. This includes  2 patio doors, 2 man doors and 1 POS French door!  Live and learn. It doesn't matter how much insulation you use, the best windows are only about R 5-7!  You could have the best stove in the world, but when you try to heat the planet instead of the inside of your home, you're fighting a loosing battle!


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## Bioburner (Jan 4, 2015)

When I planned for the build of our house we did not put any North facing windows. Would just get some road noise and look at wall of evergreen trees 20 feet away. Office in the one room and AV room in the other and both north walls are use for idiot boxes. Very good move when the winds are like they are tonight at about 15 from the NNW and its -10


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## WiscWoody (Jan 4, 2015)

SKOAL MAN said:


> The dumbass that built my house put 70% of the windows on the north side of the house. This includes  2 patio doors, 2 man doors and 1 POS French door!  Live and learn. It doesn't matter how much insulation you use, the best windows are only about R 5-7!  You could have the best stove in the world, but when you try to heat the planet instead of the inside of your home, you're fighting a loosing battle!


 it's not so much the R value of the glass but how well it seals out the air drafts. I think casement windows are better at that than others but I could be wrong....


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## boo boo (Jan 4, 2015)

briansol said:


> my slider leaks like crazy


Brian mine did to well still does but not as bad when I moved in here. I had to take the molding off of the inside door to plug a 3 inch non insolated gap all around it. My wife also bought some thick winter drapes for the slider door that help allot. Also no insulation around my down stair window jams either had to do the same with all of them and my outside wall electrical plates



SKOAL MAN said:


> You could have the best stove in the world, but when you try to heat the planet instead of the inside of your home, you're fighting a loosing battle!


How true
Third year here and still chase cold leaks


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## SKOAL MAN (Jan 4, 2015)

Bioburner said:


> When I planned for the build of our house we did not put any North facing windows. Would just get some road noise and look at wall of evergreen trees 20 feet away. Office in the one room and AV room in the other and both north walls are use for idiot boxes. Very good move when the winds are like they are tonight at about 15 from the NNW and its -10


I'm on the south shore of a lake! Right now its -10 at my house wit 50 mph winds coming off the lake.  I'm 20 feet away from the stove and can actually feel the wind! Lol, can't wait to build the next.


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## WiscWoody (Jan 4, 2015)

SKOAL MAN said:


> I'm on the south shore of a lake! Right now its -10 at my house wit 50 mph winds coming off the lake.  I'm 20 feet away from the stove and can actually feel the wind! Lol, can't wait to build the next.


I'm on the south end of a lake also and it can get wicked! But 50 mph winds are seldom up here. You are doing good if your keeping warm at all in those kind of extreme winds and cold, cold temperatures!


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## heatingcostssuck (Jan 4, 2015)

Personally, I think you're looking at it wrong.

If you were paying $4000 for oil before and now you're paying $3000, seems to me you have an extra $1000 to put towards the 
pellet stove.


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## SKOAL MAN (Jan 4, 2015)

WiscWoody said:


> I'm on the south end of a lake also and it can get wicked! But 50 mph winds are seldom up here. You are doing good if your keeping warm at all in those kind of extreme winds and cold, cold temperatures!


The funny thing is, when I had the wood stove, the windier it was the hotter the house would be!  I went through a lot more wood, but holy crap it got hot down here!  Some times I had the damper fully closed and the stove was still crazy hot!  The pellet stove is a lot more in control due to the mechanical draft.


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## mass_burner (Jan 5, 2015)

bags said:


> Agreed. Glass in general is a huge BTU killer. Pieces of glass that move are even worse. Cold air infiltration can make heating a place a exercise in futility.


I don't see that, maybe cause all my windows are south facing. 40% of my south facing wall, is basically floor to ceiling glass, with one slider. That slider opens to a patio completely of glass, 5 double sliders.


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## bags (Jan 5, 2015)

mass_burner said:


> I don't see that, maybe cause all my windows are south facing. 40% of my south facing wall, is basically floor to ceiling glass, with one slider. That slider opens to a patio completely of glass, 5 double sliders.


Your glass is on the right side for winter and helps with solar gain. If you take into consideration the R-Value of glass and hot / cold transfer an insulated wall without glass is better in any situation. On the flip side how does all of that glass help you with cooling in the summer. It hurts you. Also that glass hurts you for heating on non sunny days in the winter because the glass cools and there is no warm sunny love. Low-E, argon, and stuff only goes so far.

My main point is there are all kinds of losses and gains with glass. No way around it. The more you have then the more you loose and gain depending.

Also with your situation the extra glass room outside of your 40% south facing glass wall adds to the solar gain which can help in winter and do the opposite in summer. One thing it does all year is help with blocking air infiltration on your interior wall of windows. In the summer it also can turn into a green house effect and radiate unwanted heat thru said wall.


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## mass_burner (Jan 5, 2015)

In the patio, there are also 3 45x 40 skylights that open. In summer, we open all the sliders, the patio door into the house, and the opposite wall windows to get a good cross breeze going, we also live 1/2 mile from the ocean, so the breeze is more mild in summer.

But you're right about the sun thing in winter, speeds up the warming up time drastically.


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## bags (Jan 5, 2015)

mass_burner said:


> In the patio, there are also 3 45x 40 skylights that open. In summer, we open all the sliders, the patio door into the house, and the opposite wall windows to get a good cross breeze going, we also live 1/2 mile from the ocean, so the breeze is more mild in summer.


You have it figured out. My point is what happens when that patio / sunroom isn't opened? The ocean breeze most definitely helps tremendously also. What happens when it isn't sunny in the winter? Glass works against you. Does it not? There is no perfect solution for any home. You have to make adjustments accordingly. Too many variables. I am sticking to my guns on glass having poor R-Values and tons of losses and gains. There is just no way around it.

South facing solar homes prove this point. They want all the gain they can get thru that glass in the winter and they get it. That is how they obtain heat. They also shade that same south facing wall in summer because that same gain cooks them out. The hot glass even shaded kills their cool AC air too because it is radiated and transferred.


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## Wilbur Feral (Jan 6, 2015)

bags said:


> You have it figured out. My point is what happens when that patio / sunroom isn't opened? The ocean breeze most definitely helps tremendously also. What happens when it isn't sunny in the winter? Glass works against you. Does it not? There is no perfect solution for any home. You have to make adjustments accordingly. Too many variables. I am sticking to my guns on glass having poor R-Values and tons of losses and gains. There is just no way around it.
> 
> South facing solar homes prove this point. They want all the gain they can get thru that glass in the winter and they get it. That is how they obtain heat. They also shade that same south facing wall in summer because that same gain cooks them out. The hot glass even shaded kills their cool AC air too because it is radiated and transferred.


Well, a bit off topic, but one can shade those south facing windows with an awning / overhang in summer, but still allow winter sun to enter given its lower angle.  A good architect can do wonders...


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## mass_burner (Jan 6, 2015)

Wilbur Feral said:


> Well, a bit off topic, but one can shade those south facing windows with an awning / overhang in summer, but still allow winter sun to enter given its lower angle.  A good architect can do wonders...


We have 2.5' overhang on south/north facing sides, except the patio.


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## mass_burner (Jan 6, 2015)

bags said:


> You have it figured out. My point is what happens when that patio / sunroom isn't opened? The ocean breeze most definitely helps tremendously also. What happens when it isn't sunny in the winter? Glass works against you. Does it not? There is no perfect solution for any home. You have to make adjustments accordingly. Too many variables. I am sticking to my guns on glass having poor R-Values and tons of losses and gains. There is just no way around it.
> 
> South facing solar homes prove this point. They want all the gain they can get thru that glass in the winter and they get it. That is how they obtain heat. They also shade that same south facing wall in summer because that same gain cooks them out. The hot glass even shaded kills their cool AC air too because it is radiated and transferred.


Point taken. One the main reasons for getting a second insert in the LR facing north is an 13'x5' bow window that was hand made onsite when the house was built with 18 individual panes, they are double insulated glass, but leaky. I insulated the underside, which helped.


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## jfunk138 (Jan 14, 2015)

Looks like we will almost certainly get under the $2 level that many have said will make them switch:
February futures are $1.60 for delivery to NY harbor.
http://www.cmegroup.com/trading/energy/refined-products/heating-oil.html

In a stable price environment, I am usually able to get it in my tank for NY harbor + $0.30, so $1.90 here in northern worcester county.  Lowest price I see to today is $2.14 at www.codoil.com


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## TimfromMA (Jan 14, 2015)

jfunk138 said:


> Looks like we will almost certainly get under the $2 level that many have said will make them switch:
> February futures are $1.60 for delivery to NY harbor.
> http://www.cmegroup.com/trading/energy/refined-products/heating-oil.html
> 
> In a stable price environment, I am usually able to get it in my tank for NY harbor + $0.30, so $1.90 here in northern worcester county.  Lowest price I see to today is $2.14 at www.codoil.com



According to gasbuddy, there are stations out in Brockton selling gas in the $1.80's


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