# Info on combination wood,coal and oil boilers



## Jess (Sep 25, 2013)

I need a new boiler and am wondering about the combination oil,coal wood boilers. Currently have an oil boiler in basement and wood stove in family room. House is about 1900 sq. Ft. In Northern Maine. 
any other suggestions appreciated. Got to get a move on this ...winters on the way!


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## heaterman (Sep 25, 2013)

From the few combo units I've worked with, I'd have to say that each side (wood/oil) compromises the performance of the other. I've always had best results with separate units that are made and designed for the specific fuel they are using. A heat exchanger designed for wood is not the best type for oil or gas and the reverse is also true.


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## flyingcow (Sep 25, 2013)

What little bit i know, i have to agree with Heaterman. I'd lean to go with a good wood boiler and use the oil boiler you have now just as backup. That's basically what I'm doing. Your oil boiler in decent shape?


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## BoilerMan (Sep 25, 2013)

First off, WELCOME, from Northern Maine myself, The County!

Do you have two flues?  Why the need/want for a combo unit?  I may be wrong, but I do not think there are any made that are true gasification wood burners...........accept the woodgun, and lets not get into that as to not confuse a new member. 

TS


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## GS7 (Sep 25, 2013)

Jess said:


> I need a new boiler and am wondering about the combination oil,coal wood boilers. Currently have an oil boiler in basement and wood stove in family room. House is about 1900 sq. Ft. In Northern Maine.
> any other suggestions appreciated. Got to get a move on this ...winters on the way!



I am in the exact same situation as you and I nearly bought a combo unit. Glad I continued to research what options I have. Looks like the Woodmaster flex fuel wood/pellet gasifier is at the top of my list. The way I see it once you get into a certain price range, the boiler should heat the WHOLE house AND provide your hot water. Every combo unit I've seen only preheats your water and while it reduces your oil use, I don't want to have to use a few hundred gallons of oil or even one drop of oil after making such a significant investment.


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## maple1 (Sep 25, 2013)

If you really need a combo - from the researching I did, I would narrow it down to a Wood Gun, or a Biomass 60. And likely pick the Biomass as long as I could incorporate storage also.

But after the 17 years I spent with my old-tech combo unit, I would also recommend separate units - as was recommended to me before that 17 years started but which I failed to give full consideration to.

And you're going to be hard pressed to get it done before winter if you're just starting the planning - unless you're waaaayyy more efficient than I was.


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## infinitymike (Sep 27, 2013)

[quote="BoilerMan, post: 1527620, member: 22455"..........accept the woodgun, and lets not get into that as to not confuse a new member.

TS[/quote]

Get into what? Confuse a new member how?
That the wood gun is a great machine with pros and cons like any other unit out there. 
I must say the wood gun is a well hated boiler by everyone who has NEVER owned one. 
Why is that? Jealousy maybe?
Can we all just get along? Each one with his preference toward their own boiler  
We not talkin about whose God is the right one,  just wood burning. 

BTW Jess welcome aboard. 
Hold on and enjoy the ride.


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## Fred61 (Sep 27, 2013)

infinitymike said:


> [quote="BoilerMan, post: 1527620, member: 22455"..........accept the woodgun, and lets not get into that as to not confuse a new member.
> 
> TS



Get into what? Confuse a new member how?
That the wood gun is a great machine with pros and cons like any other unit out there
I must say the wood gun is a well hated boiler by everyone who has NEVER owned one. 
Why is that? Jealousy maybe?
Can we all just get along? Each one with his preference toward their own boiler  
We not talkin about whose God is the right one,  just wood burning. 

BTW Jess welcome aboard. 
Hold on and enjoy the ride.[/quote]

AND WELL LOVED BY EVERYONE WHO HAS NEVER OPERATED ANOTHER GASSER!


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## maple1 (Sep 27, 2013)

All I know is the only other gasser that I have seen around me is a Wood Gun. He is going in to his 5th or 6th year, and has been very satisfied with it.

So I wouldn't rule one out - but I think I would incorporate storage with whatever.


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## infinitymike (Sep 27, 2013)

Fred61 said:


> AND WELL LOVED BY EVERYONE WHO HAS NEVER OPERATED ANOTHER GASSER!



That's the key to contentment .... Want what you already have!


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## nrcrash (Sep 27, 2013)

maple1 said:


> All I know is the only other gasser that I have seen around me is a Wood Gun. He is going in to his 5th or 6th year, and has been very satisfied with it.
> 
> So I wouldn't rule one out - but I think I would incorporate storage with whatever.



U don't need storage with a wood gun.... It works on magic.


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## infinitymike (Sep 27, 2013)

Boilerman was right.... It got started in here. 
Sorry Jess.


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## hobbyheater (Sep 27, 2013)

Jess said:


> I need a new boiler and am wondering about the combination oil,coal wood boilers. Currently have an oil boiler in basement and wood stove in family room. House is about 1900 sq. Ft. In Northern Maine.
> any other suggestions appreciated. Got to get a move on this ...winters on the way!



If you have a way to get this boiler into your basement, you would not be happier. This boiler can be direct vented through a wall and would not require a chimney.



This is a bigger Garn but the principle is the same.


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## GS7 (Sep 27, 2013)

hobbyheater said:


> If you have a way to get this boiler into your basement, you would not be happier. This boiler can be direct vented through a wall and would not require a chimney.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a bigger Garn but the principle is the same.



 Great video. Wish I could fit that unit in my basement!


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## Gasifier (Sep 28, 2013)

Whatever boiler you chose put enough storage in to burn your wood flat out and then shut down and coast on your storage for a day or two. Extra money and effort. Yes. When your done, sweet. Your shooting for this year with your new boiler. Do you have a whole season of wood that is already seasoned for at least a year. Gassers like properly seasoned wood. Period.


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## WireNut (Sep 28, 2013)

I'd just like to toss in that you should check with your insurance company, mine (State Farm) won't allow a primary solid fuel (coal, wood, pellet) boiler, and I have to have an oil boiler (or propane) as my primary.


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## avc8130 (Sep 28, 2013)

WireNut said:


> I'd just like to toss in that you should check with your insurance company, mine (State Farm) won't allow a primary solid fuel (coal, wood, pellet) boiler, and I have to have an oil boiler (or propane) as my primary.



Same here.  They didn't care as long as there was some form of liquid fuel burning heat in my house as "primary".  So I have a Wood Gun combo unit and I am happy.  The magic is great and the ignorance bliss.

ac


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## maple1 (Sep 28, 2013)

Why wouldn't something electric count as 'primary'?


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## WireNut (Sep 28, 2013)

I hadn't considered electric, but yes that would be fine too.  It's just the wood/coal/pellet boilers since they have to be loaded and don't have a "backup" supply.  I'm sure one could ask "What about boilers with hoppers".  I don't know, I didn't ask.


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## webbie (Sep 28, 2013)

Well, Jess, some good info here but sorry for all the BS!

My suggestion is not to listen to people (generally) in threads like this, but to take a look through the entire boiler room and read enough so that you become familiar with the various options.

I'm always going to suggest a high efficiency model - no reason to get 1/2 the heat from the same wood...

Also, for most all installations, storage is suggested. As alluded to above, there is nothing magic about one brand which makes it need or not need storage. Without storage you will get less efficiency and your boiler will likely develop problems (holes, etc.) earlier. The Garn has built in storage.

I looked at the Wood Gun site and they claim their boilers are vastly better than all the other high efficiency units. That, IMHO, is deceptive advertising because they are not. If they want to submit their units for head-to-head match ups against other units in an accredited lab, they should do so and report the results.

As with most equipment, you have to balance budget and other factors against your wants and needs. If you want the most possible efficiency, find the boilers with the most recent designs from firms that employ real combustion engineers and have updated their systems as new technology hits the market (Lambda sensors, etc.).

One of our long term members who is also an engineer just started marketing his control system. He lives in VT and has spend many years researching and tuning wood and other alt energy systems. Here's his press release:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/nofossil-control-system-becomes-vesta.114289/

If you are looking for a really slick system, you may want to contact him for some advice, controls and his experience. Lots of the other folks here know a lot also....but sometimes they do stuff like in the thread above.

Sorry!


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## hobbyheater (Sep 29, 2013)

webbie said:


> Well, Jess, some good info here but sorry for all the BS!
> !


 Sorry that my post was considered  "BS" !
Just remove it and I will post no more .
Thank you.
Allan


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## Gasifier (Sep 29, 2013)

[COLOR=#0000ff]webbie said:


> Well, Jess, some good info here but sorry for all the BS!
> 
> My suggestion is not to listen to people (generally) in threads like this, but to take a look through the entire boiler room and read enough so that you become familiar with the various options.
> 
> ...


 
Craig. I think you may have posted this in the wrong thread. All the so called "BS" was going on in the other Wood Gun thread. Now you appear to be ticking my friend Allan off. Probably not the best route to be calling peoples comments BS. They are just stating their opinion Craig. No biggy. On that note. I have seen many a thread in the boiler room, and elsewhere on hearth.com, get a little heated before. Or have some "drama". So why so heavily involved now? I have not seen you this heavily involved in a thread about, oh let's say, a Garn or a HS Tarm. Both good boilers in my opinion.

Look. I don't think the Wood Gun is a magical wood burner. The end all be all. That is for sure. I think it does it's intended job, has simplicity of basic off the shelf parts that some like, and in combination with storage will function just as well, if not better, as many of the other brands. Plus it is made right in Pennsylvania, the good old U.S.A. I like creating jobs here in the U.S.A. as well.

The heat that my Wood Gun puts out is really impressive. I am heating a 3200 sq.ft. house, a 900 sq.ft. garage, and my domestic hot water with the E100. I think that is impressive for that size unit. I have done a few things different with my set up. Added a 400 gallon buffer tank, took away almost horizontal exhaust piping (stove pipe) and use insulated at an angle, and improved the seal on my ash pan.

Two seasons down and have gone from using at least 1500 gallons a year to using less than 40 the first year (burned all summer in 2012) and probably between 75-100 this year because I was too busy to burn this summer and did not want to bother with making the fire everyday.


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## heaterman (Sep 29, 2013)

Primary heat source definition = a heating system that can operate with no one in attendance.  In other words, automatically fired or turned on. 

Pellet boilers fall under the definition most companies use for primary heating. Not aware of any cordwood boilers that do.


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## avc8130 (Sep 29, 2013)

webbie said:


> Well, Jess, some good info here but sorry for all the BS!
> 
> I looked at the Wood Gun site and they claim their boilers are vastly better than all the other high efficiency units. That, IMHO, is deceptive advertising because they are not. If they want to submit their units for head-to-head match ups against other units in an accredited lab, they should do so and report the results.
> 
> Sorry!



Seems pretty typical for ANY form of marketing for ANY product...

I don't see any OTHER boiler company with accredited lab reports of "head-to-head either...

I see you have 11k+ messages, but just suddenly over the past few days you hopped into the Boiler Room as another Wood Gun detractor.  

I hope you can see that most WG owners only get defensive because so many people attack US!

"magic" was certainly not brought up by a WG owner...

I've done nothing but try to help the man.  If he NEEDS a combo unit, the situation is simple: there aren't many available so we have to be big boys and talk about the WG FAIRLY.

ac


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## webbie (Sep 29, 2013)

Gasifier said:


> Craig. I think you may have posted this in the wrong thread. All the so called "BS" was going on in the other Wood Gun thread. Now you appear to be ticking my friend Allan off. Probably not the best route to be calling peoples comments BS.



You are 100% right. I am running all over the board doing moderation and answering. I should qualify that and say "some threads and comments about these boilers enter into the BS territory". My comment in the other thread made it clear "Lots of good information, but some BS" or whatever.

I have no problems with the singular opinions of owners or the multiple opinions of installers. We enter into a little problem sometimes when sellers may have an interest in their boiler over others - I've been in this position myself.

In those cases, it's always good for the poster to say "disclaimer, I sell (or represent, or whatever) this brand".

Oh, took another look and the BS is small, but it's there. The woodgun is "magic", etc.
As I said to some others, all the points can be expressed in another fashion.

So, to be clear:
"We not talkin about whose God is the right one, just wood burning. ", etc....

Maybe there is a reason the OP didn't continue to engage? If so, that's my only point. It's fair to warn users of a bad experience. It's fair to tell them just about anything in positive or negative features. What is not fair is to be on a crusade either way or to confuse new users more than they were already....

My suggestion for those who have bad experiences is this. Place ONE review in our review section. Once it is checked and public, copy down the link. Then, when people ask about the boiler, you can say "my experience is not so good - please see this and other reviews".


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## BoilerMan (Sep 30, 2013)

BoilerMan said:


> I may be wrong, but I do not think there are any made that are true gasification wood burners...........accept the woodgun, and lets not get into that as to not confuse a new member.
> 
> TS


 
I knew this would happen.......  With all the banter, why is the WG guys always all chime in?  I will not endorse that what I burn in is the best just because I have it.

Personally I have operated and installed several solid-fuelled boilers and have had the privilege to see them in operation many years later and assess the install and judge the long term usage of those units.  This helps to _form an educated opinion  _of those units and those alone.  As well as hone my install skills and materials used, as with any trade, learn from your and other's mistakes.

A combo unit is a mistake unless you have no other choice, one flue........which should not even be a real issue, but code says it is.

TS


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## avc8130 (Sep 30, 2013)

BoilerMan said:


> I knew this would happen.......  With all the banter, why is the WG guys always all chime in?  I will not endorse that what I burn in is the best just because I have it.
> 
> A combo unit is a mistake unless you have no other choice, one flue........which should not even be a real issue, but code says it is.
> 
> TS



The WG guys are "chiming in" because the OP asked about COMBO units.  There really aren't many offered, and the WG happens to be one of those that is.

I still fail to see how the combo unit is a mistake.  Generally the units are designed to burn wood...with the ability to burn something else as "backup".  Who cares if the 2nd fuel is "inefficient"...it's a BACKUP.  The whole point is you won't use it. 

ac


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## BoilerMan (Sep 30, 2013)

I'm with Maple1, electric backup.....  well personally, and you may have read into my posts that I do not have a problem with two units on a shared flue.  There are hundreds if not thousands of wood stove/boilers on the same flue as and oil/gas boiler/furnace in so many homes around this county.  I'm not one of them, but if I had an older home with one flue and direct venting were not an option I'd connect a gassifier or epa wood stove to the same flue as an oil/gas boiler and not have any issues other than some insurance person.  And I'd shop around for insurance if that were the case.

avc: I say mistake because of oil burner nozzle fouling, and the overall inefficiency of the oil side due to fly ash from wood/coal.  I've worked on an EFM coal stoaker/oil boiler several times (great unit BTW! ) the oil only works if a shutter is opened and a mercury switch locks out the stoaker and enables the oil burner.  Two separate units (or a combo unit the has two separate combustion chaimbers) is all that I would consider.  A unit with two separate chaimbers (like what you considered avc) still has all that heated steel to draft heat up the chimney 24/7.  Have you connected your oil burner yet to see how it operates long term?  Why do you think that plug is there for it?

TS


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## Fred61 (Sep 30, 2013)

avc8130 said:


> Who cares if the 2nd fuel is "inefficient"...it's a BACKUP.


 Mine was a little worse than "inefficient". It was an oil HOG.


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## avc8130 (Sep 30, 2013)

Fred61 said:


> Mine was a little worse than "inefficient". It was an oil HOG.



Did you run it with the fan active or disabled?


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## avc8130 (Sep 30, 2013)

BoilerMan said:


> I'm with Maple1, electric backup.....  well personally, and you may have read into my posts that I do not have a problem with two units on a shared flue.  There are hundreds if not thousands of wood stove/boilers on the same flue as and oil/gas boiler/furnace in so many homes around this county.  I'm not one of them, but if I had an older home with one flue and direct venting were not an option I'd connect a gassifier or epa wood stove to the same flue as an oil/gas boiler and not have any issues other than some insurance person.  And I'd shop around for insurance if that were the case.
> 
> TS



That would be "fine".  BUT God forbid (is this expression allowed on this forum?) there was a fire...

Another option would be to "swap" flue connectors.  It really depends how badly one needs the ability to switch to the "backup" automatically.  It wouldn't be tough with the appliances next to each other and the flue connectors pre made to pop one out and the other in.

ac


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## Fred61 (Sep 30, 2013)

avc8130 said:


> Did you run it with the fan active or disabled?


I was sort of on my own. Didn't have this site to share ideas. It took me about 4 years to think of disconnecting the draft fan even though I knew (suspected) it was my problem. I also had to build a control box to lock it into oil mode once it automatically switched over or it would switch back into wood mode when the boiler temp was brought back up. If the boiler was out of wood or failed to rekindle it would continue to keep cycling from wood to oil until I got home and switched it off. It didn't take long to burn a tank of oil in that scenario.

It was still an oil hog after the fan was disconnected. I eventually disconnected the oil burner from my home grown control box and used it as a lock to shut down and lock the combustion fan (if no re-light)until I was able to manually reset it.


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## Fred61 (Sep 30, 2013)

avc8130 said:


> It really depends how badly one needs the ability to switch to the "backup" automatically


If you have a good amount of storage, switching to back-up will not be so much of an emergency.


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## avc8130 (Sep 30, 2013)

Fred61 said:


> I was sort of on my own. Didn't have this site to share ideas. It took me about 4 years to think of disconnecting the draft fan even though I knew (suspected) it was my problem. I also had to build a control box to lock it into oil mode once it automatically switched over or it would switch back into wood mode when the boiler temp was brought back up. If the boiler was out of wood or failed to rekindle it would continue to keep cycling from wood to oil until I got home and switched it off. It didn't take long to burn a tank of oil in that scenario.
> 
> It was still an oil hog after the fan was disconnected. I eventually disconnected the oil burner from my home grown control box and used it as a lock to shut down and lock the combustion fan (if no re-light)until I was able to manually reset it.



Oh have things have changed (and stayed the same).  WGs now have PLC controls.  Once the boiler switches to oil, it locks into oil mode until manually reset.

I have what's called a "manual" oil backup.  I have to turn off "wood" and turn on "oil" to run mine on oil.  I didn't WANT auto backup as my whole intent was to burn WOOD.  I want to choose when to burn what fuel.  So far I haven't chose oil since...in fact I don't even have my gun installed.

So yeah, I can't speak from personal experience on the oil burning front with my WG.  I just read about others turning off the draft fan to reduce flue temps and get a better oil burn.

The recommended nozzles for the WG are crazy.  1.1 gph with 150psi pump pressure is insane for my E180.  That is WG trying to get the FULL 180k btu rating out of it.  When I finally get around to installing oil, I will probably start with a .85 nozzle.  I'll play with it until the oil burner doesn't short cycle.  That is HORRIBLE for efficiency, just like it is with wood.

I think the thing to remember with burning oil in a WG is that it was designed to burn wood.  Burning oil is a side-effect to keep the "backup" around.

I certainly would not suggest to anyone that they buy a WG or ANY combo unit if they plan to use the oil for anything more than a "BACKUP".  

ac


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## Fred61 (Oct 1, 2013)

Yea, I had to build my own control. Manual oil backup is what I essentially ended up with only I had to physically connect a wire since I never added a switch. Actually I've operated a couple combo hot air smoke makers in the past and they were very inefficient also so I personally have come to the conclusion that most combos are less than ideal when it comes to efficiency.


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## maple1 (Oct 1, 2013)

After being without oil all together for just over a year now (I finally just got my oil tank out of the basement this past weekend though), I would honestly recommend that oil be about last on the list for backup heat. Electric heat can be expensive to operate, sure - as primary heat. But there are so many electric options (boiler, baseboard, radiant plug-ins, mini-splits), that oil pales in comparison. Especially considering that last one can give you A/C in the summer, and is very efficient. Then you get into the gas powered options. All of those make for a cleaner install than oil - no chimney, potential oil spill hazards, ongoing burner maintenance, or worries about fuel gelling or going bad. I would even recommend yanking an existing oil unit, that might be working OK now, in favour of something else, especially if your oil tank has many years at all on it.

My experience has really made me realize how bad our oil addiction is - I'm glad I broke mine.


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## BoilerMan (Oct 1, 2013)

Oil at one time was the cheapest fuel, aside from coal and wood.  Most coal plants (boilers) were converted to oil for their relative low maintanice and automation.  Now, I walk into schools and other large institutions build in the golden era (1950s) that have old coal bins that are now filled with mechanicals and other boiler room appendages.  The coal replaced with 15,000 gal buried oil tanks converted in the 60s and the old AxmanAndersens long scrapped.

Looking back they should have stayed the course with coal.  They are now installing dual fuelled burners on those 60s boilers (W-M) and going with buried propane tanks in conjunction with the 15,000 gal oil, which was once bunker-C.  I'm there wiring in the new burners.  We tried to talk them into biomass chip boilers to supplement the oil, but the expense and logistics were simply not there......especially with steam from the 50s in the building. 

TS


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## hobbyheater (Oct 1, 2013)

BoilerMan said:


> Looking back they should have stayed the course with coal.  They are now installing dual fuelled burners on those 60s boilers (W-M) and going with buried propane tanks in conjunction with the 15,000 gal oil, which was once bunker-C.  I'm there wiring in the new burners.  We tried to talk them into biomass chip boilers to supplement the oil, but the expense and logistics were simply not there......especially with steam from the 50s in the building.
> TS


 
Interesting stuff !
HH


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## Fred61 (Oct 2, 2013)

BoilerMan said:


> Oil at one time was the cheapest fuel, aside from coal and wood


I can still remember my mother wiping away tears when she received a notice from the oil company back in the fifties that the price of fuel oil was increasing to eighteen cents a gallon and the discussion with my father on how they were going to pay for it.


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## Gasifier (Oct 2, 2013)

I can vividly remember getting $600 + oil bills when filling the tank and heating my home with it. I have spent about $300 dollars on oil in the last two years now. $150 of it is still in the tank.


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## velvetfoot (Oct 2, 2013)

Generally, is propane getting cheaper?  Around here it's been more than oil, and not sure if that's changing.  Change to propane=a freed-up flue, standby generator possibility.


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## Gasifier (Oct 2, 2013)

That looked like hell. Still wish I had natural gas down my road.  

Here is a good chart. http://chimneysweeponline.com/hofuels.htm


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## BoilerMan (Oct 2, 2013)

Propane is much cheaper now that people are buying it in quantity (replacing oil with it).  If you only buy a few hundred gallons/year it's much expensive.  So for us cordwood burners, having LP as backup is expensive BTUs but will not go bad in the tank in five years. 

TS


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