# Is this stove safe or a piece of junk?



## robertjp (Aug 2, 2010)

Recently I was given a small woodstove by my uncle. I want to use it for my 600 sq. ft cabin on a lake with no heat. It is a Lavec model 150 and it says "Scandia" on the front. It is small. I read somewhere that these were cheap ( I dont doubt, it says made in Taiwan 1982). Does anyone have one of these or does anyone know if this is a safe model? It appears in very good condition but getting a round 6" pipe from a oval shape on the back looks like it will be diffucult. (it's 7.75" x 5.5") One woodstove dealer told me it will be tough. SHould I move forward with installing this or is it too unsafe? Thanks in advance. RP


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## Wood Heat Stoves (Aug 2, 2010)

not worth installing, imo
not unsafe if nfpa 211 standards are met
cant pull a permit for it in many areas


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## robertjp (Aug 2, 2010)

Can you give me a clue what nfpa 211 standards are? I know nothing about woodstoves. Thanks


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## Fsappo (Aug 2, 2010)

If it doesnt have a UL listing plate on the back, or something similar (a recognized test lab) just scrap it.  If it does have a listing plate on it, contact your local fire chief for the clearances in your area for a UL listed wood stove.


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## robertjp (Aug 2, 2010)

Heres the plate on the back. Looks like it was tested by someone and it says UL.  I hope I can use it because I dont have the cash to buy a new one but on the other hand I dont want to burn the place down either.


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## begreen (Aug 2, 2010)

These are cheap Jotul knockoffs. Well at least on this model Scandia put it's own name on it. The problem is that the castings on these knockoffs can often be poor. That affects how tightly sealed the stove is and the door fit. For this reason they tend to be a better stove for someone that likes to tinker and totally understands wood burning. It is not a good entry stove for a new woodburner.

Is it safe? Possibly, if it is installed with full 36" clearances. It somewhat depends on how well they made this one. If the stove is tight and has no leaks, and IF it has inner burn plates that fit together well with the upper baffle, then it could be an ok cabin or shop heater. Lots of ifs.


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## Jags (Aug 2, 2010)

One test you might want to try is:
In a very dark room, take a bright flashlight and put it inside and close the door.  Look around, look for light.  That will at least give a hint to its build and how tight the stove is.

Your gonna need some serious clearance to combustibles on that install, so you may want to do some measuring BEFORE you make a call on it.

Not trying to bash a potential heater, but that was a pretty low grade stove when new.  It didn't get better with time. It could still be a serviceable unit, but proceed with due caution.

(and make sure its legal to install in your area, as said above, some places won't allow it to legally be installed).


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## cmonSTART (Aug 2, 2010)

Well, assuming the stove is in usable condition, with a proper connection to a proper chimney burning properly dried wood and operated properly, it's not so bad.  Personally I would keep looking for something better, like an old Jotul of the same vintage.  

Clearance is your friend.


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## BrotherBart (Aug 2, 2010)

My primary concern with the Scandia knock-off stoves is that back then the Chinese were notorious for inferior iron castings. In fact it has only been in the last ten years or so that the quality has shown improvement. Lots of Chinese tractors with broken axle housings laying around in junkyards. And with a small stove like that people tend to burn them really hot trying to put out heat and that is a recipe for disaster if the castings are defective.

What kind of chimney are you thinking about?


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## stoveguy2esw (Aug 2, 2010)

robertjp said:
			
		

> Can you give me a clue what nfpa 211 standards are? I know nothing about woodstoves. Thanks



nfpa 211 is the standard for stoves, chimneys, fireplaces, etc.. .  here is a link where you can read it free.  http://www.nfpa.org/aboutthecodes/AboutTheCodes.asp?DocNum=211&cookie;_test=1
just follow the links in the site to open it to read, i use it constantly in my work.


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## robertjp (Aug 2, 2010)

Thanks guys for the info but now Im more confused than ever. When you say the castings could be defective...what are castings and what could happen? There are 3 metal objects that lay inside the stove, I just cant figure out how they go. 2 are alike and it looks like they might hang on the walls? There are 2 small square openings on them and 3 pegs on the walls. The other piece is a roundish looking thing that maybe a log would sit on? Can these stoves overheat? I dont know what to do now. junk it or keep it.


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## begreen (Aug 3, 2010)

Almost every part on the stove is a casting, cast out of iron. Defects can be hidden bubbles or cracks. 

The plates with the square holes are the side plates. Yes, they hang on those pegs on the sides. The other piece is the baffle. It sits on the ledge formed by the edges of the tops of the side plates. The arch faces the back of the stove with the arch downward so that it curves around the flue exit. 

Yes, this stove can overheat, so can most any wood stove if run improperly. If it has cracks or leaks, it will be hard to control. That would be a very good reason to pass it on or make it a planter. 

Is this your first woodstove? If you decide not to keep it and there are no leaks or cracks, maybe give it away on CL? The stove looks in relatively decent condition, though it appears to be repainted, so it's hard to say. Someone could probably use it.

PS: Here is an exploded parts diagram for a Jotul 602 which this stove is a copy of. My 602's side burn plates look like part 5A in this diagram. The 602 has a round flue port so I am not quite sure about how Scandia cast its upper baffle.


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## robertjp (Aug 3, 2010)

Wow Im impressed with your guys knowledge, yes it was painted by me yesterday with high heat rustoleum. It really didnt need it except the legs had some rust on them so I painted the whole thing. The stove looks like it was either never used or rarely used. I dont know much about them but it looks quite good. I still dont know what to do but will try the flashlight trick mentioned above. How much can you get a small new woodstove for now just in case?


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## fossil (Aug 3, 2010)

For 600 ft² you don't need much stove, and you don't want to give up a lot of footprint to make it a safe installation.  This old stove you've got will require either a large footprint or a whole lot of work installing wall protection.  In any case, it's an outdated, cheaply constructed inefficient burner.  If you're set on installing a woodburning stove in your cabin, you have a whole lot to learn.  As important as the stove is the proper venting of the flue gases.  That means stovepipe (also called connector pipe) from the flue collar on the stove to where it penetrates the structure, then an appropriate support/transition to Class A chimney pipe, which needs to extend up to a height dictated by the configuration of the roof and where the pipe emerges.  For any kind of decent, modern, efficient installation with a modestly sized stove and all that's required for getting it ready to burn, I'm just gonna swag that you need to set a budget somewhere around $2000 - $3000.  (~$1000 for a stove, and ~$1000 for all the other stuff)  You may well be able to do it for less.  You can certainly do it for a whole lot more.  In any case, as you begin to explore the possibilities, you'll find some very nice little stoves available today that burn wood quite efficiently and have very tight clearance requirements to combustible materials.  Welcome to the forums!  Rick


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## cmonSTART (Aug 3, 2010)

Check out the Englander 13 which should be in the ball park of $800 (?).  Napoleon also has some.  You can find a 1450 for under a thousand.  

If you search Craigslist carefully you can come across some good deals on used stoves.  I got our Englander 30, with a blower, for $500 used for only a couple seasons.  

You can find an old Jotul 602 for a couple hundred - mind you it's a pre-EPA stove - but a good one.  

Personally I would turn the Scandia into a smoker or something.


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## robertjp (Aug 3, 2010)

OK I give up. I wont use the stove even though I dont think it was ever used. The rope around the inside of the door is brand new, so I doubt it was used. Getting the best stove to keep all the experts happy sounds good but realistically, I cant go over7-800 bucks if that. If that wont do it, I guess Ill just use my propane heater Ive been using and bag the idea altogether rather than burn the place down.


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## firefighterjake (Aug 3, 2010)

There may be a reason it wasn't ever used . . . or was only used for a bit. 

My own take . . . when it comes to having a high heat source in my living space I want to make sure the fire stays where it belongs and the heating appliance is safe . . .


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## Jags (Aug 3, 2010)

robertjp said:
			
		

> I cant go over7-800 bucks if that.



If that includes the pipe, its gonna be tough to do.  You are definitely in the "used" market, but if you keep your eyes open, there are some pretty good stoves that hit the used market, some may even come with pipe.

If heating with wood is a goal of yours, then do it.  It WILL be tough on your budget, but if your lucky, patient and willing to look around, you might just run in to what your looking for.


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## Battenkiller (Aug 3, 2010)

robertjp said:
			
		

> OK I give up. I wont use the stove even though I dont think it was ever used. The rope around the inside of the door is brand new, so I doubt it was used. Getting the best stove to keep all the experts happy sounds good but realistically, I cant go over7-800 bucks if that. If that wont do it, I guess Ill just use my propane heater Ive been using and bag the idea altogether rather than burn the place down.



Well, now that you're sufficiently scared of this thing...

... if you ever get out to the eastern part of the state, I'd love to take it off your hands. :lol: 


I don't get the comments about clearances.  It's a small stove, so it shouldn't need huge clearances.  The plate on the stove gives the minimum clearances required.  Why would these need to be exceeded?  Stove clearances are based on the area of the radiating plate and the maximum surface temperature expected.  Stove with side baffles don't get as hot as bare castings do, and the back of that stove (which should face the wall in most installations) is only about a square foot in area.  I think the recommended clearances for that stove are conservative.  Unless the thing is literally belching fire out somewhere, the quality of the castings won't change the laws of heat transfer.

The biggest problem I see is the oval collar.  I burned a Scandia 118 copy (the big brother of your stove) and it had the same size and shape collar (5" round) that the real Jotul had.  I'm surprised to see that they deviated from the Jotul 602 on your stove.  You may have to have one custom fabricated.  The cost of that could be anywhere from cheap to prohibitive, depending on the willingness of your local shop to do one-off work.

BTW, Taiwan ain't China (at least for now, anyway).  I sold power tools from both places.  The Taiwanese stuff wasn't badly made, but the designs were somewhat atrocious, and the motors were massively wound yet still burned out (again, poor design).  The Chinese stuff was garbage all the way around.  The Chinese have closed the quality control gap between the two, but back in the 80s when this stove was made, Taiwanese stuff was vastly superior.

Here's another observation that may be of interest.  A couple years ago, I lost a piece of door gasket at the beginning of the season.  I fully expected the stove to run away on me.  Not only did it not run away, it would smolder and go out if I closed the air down too far, even with a big fire raging away inside.  I couldn't really see any difference between the way the stove worked with the fully gasketed door and the way it ran with the gap in the gasketing.  Naturally, I replaced the entire gasket, but this eased my concerns that air might be leaking in through the spots where there were chips in the stove cement along the seams.

I admit to being biased since I used one of these things as my primary heat source for almost 20 years without incident.  The biggest problem with these stoves that I see is that the internal baffles eventually warp and burn away in parts because they are intense little burners.  But that holds true for the real Jotuls as well.  The guy that gave me my stove replaced it with a real Jotul 118.  He says he's on his third set of side baffle plates and these ones need replacing now.  They are quite expensive from Jotul.  Now he finally needs a new top baffle.  Mine went last year.  Since he used my stove for several years before he gave it to me, my top baffle seems to have lasted longer than the genuine article, even though I burned my stove a lot harder than he does with his.


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## begreen (Aug 3, 2010)

The size of the stove has little to do with clearances. The stove radiates a lot of heat and was tested to the clearances listed on the back label posted above. I'm not sure if PFS is an accepted lab. If not, without the UL label, it would have to be 36". This could be reduced with wall shielding. 

I agree that if it was me, for a cabin installation, I would put in a safe flue system and hearth and would try it out. Perhaps the cost of installation is the deciding factor and not the stove?


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## robertjp (Aug 3, 2010)

Can Anybody give me an opinion on these stoves ? This brand is the only brand I can get delivered near my cottage and since its going down a hill, I wont be able to do it myself. Anyone heard of this brand? comments? Thanks

http://www.vogelzang.com/browse.cfm/deluxe-boxwood-stove/4,14.html

Also looking at this model   http://www.vogelzang.com/browse.cfm/standard-boxwood-stove/4,13.html


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## begreen (Aug 3, 2010)

Wrong direction. That is going from the pan into the fire. Search on Vogelzang here.

 I would keep the stove you've got first.


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## Jags (Aug 3, 2010)

robertjp said:
			
		

> Can Anybody give me an opinion on these stoves ? This brand is the only brand I can get delivered near my cottage and since its going down a hill, I wont be able to do it myself. Anyone heard of this brand? comments? Thanks
> 
> http://www.vogelzang.com/browse.cfm/deluxe-boxwood-stove/4,14.html



Keep the stove you have. :sick:


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## fossil (Aug 3, 2010)

Vogelzang makes some decent stoves...but the Boxwood's not one of them.  Rick


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## robertjp (Aug 3, 2010)

OK how bout this one

http://www.vogelzang.com/browse.cfm/frontiersman/4,21.html

If thats not good enough, I guess Ill have to do without unless I can find a good used one.


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## Battenkiller (Aug 3, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> The size of the stove has little to do with clearances. The stove radiates a lot of heat and was tested to the clearances listed on the back label posted above. I'm not sure if PFS is an accepted lab. If not, without the UL label, it would have to be 36". This could be reduced with wall shielding.
> 
> I agree that if it was me, for a cabin installation, I would put in a safe flue system and hearth and would try it out. Perhaps the cost of installation is the deciding factor and not the stove?



The size of the stove may not have anything to do with how its clearances were determined during testing, but it has everything to do with how much heat is actually radiated at a given surface temp.  A stove with 1 sq.ft. of radiating surface would need to get about 1400ºF in order to need 36" of clearance.  That is based on a maximum amount of 600 BTU/hr/sq.ft. that actually reaches the wall (roughly twice the amount of energy coming from the sun at it's highest point on a summer day).  600 BTU/hr is about the amount of heat necessary to raise the exposed surface temp to 250ºF, the temperature at which wood that has been pyrolyzed over a long time period can ignite.  At 900ºF, the distance would be reduced to 18".  That's why I said it seems conservative, not because I am in possession of the test data.  But don't misinterpret me, I see nothing wrong with being conservative when it comes to a box full of fire in your living space.

At any rate, you are correct in saying that there is no getting around the cost of a safe chimney.  Once that has been accomplished, however, this stove can safely be slid underneath it at the proper clearance distance (including a proper hearth).  If it doesn't work out, a better stove can be slid in its place under the same flue at any point in the future.  My gut tells me that this stove will work fine for a number of years in a cabin installation.


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## Battenkiller (Aug 3, 2010)

robertjp said:
			
		

> OK how bout this one
> 
> http://www.vogelzang.com/browse.cfm/frontiersman/4,21.html
> 
> If thats not good enough, I guess Ill have to do without unless I can find a good used one.



H-mmm... 102,000 BTU from a 2 cu.ft. firebox?  Weighs 165 pounds, internal firebrick and all?  Sounds intriguing.

Seriously, look at a small Englander instead.


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## begreen (Aug 3, 2010)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

> BeGreen said:
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A small stove, particularly if it is unlined, can easily raise the surface temperature of surrounding combustible surfaces to over 200 °F, even at 18" away. Consistent heating of wood can lower it's ignition point considerably. It seems prudent when introducing a raging fire in one's home to raise clearances to the point where pyrolysis is not possible which I believe is the intent of the code.


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## begreen (Aug 3, 2010)

Robert, invest in a good, safe flue system and hearth for this stove. Maybe overkill it a little bit. The Scandia is not going to fall apart on you. If it's essentially new and it is only going to get occasional usage in a cabin, it could be fine for several years. Go ahead and install it. And be sure to feel free to ask any questions you may have about the installation. If the hearth and flue are done well, and you burn dry wood in this stove, it will likely be fine. A new stove is not going to be 100% safer because the one variable is still going to be the person running the stove. Like my dad used to say - the most dangerous part of a car is the nut behind the wheel. Go for the stove you have and run it safely. I think you will be fine.


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## Delta-T (Aug 3, 2010)

It is my impression that when stoves are tested they are setting clearances based on the 185 °F  threshold (which also happens to be the min. combustion temp for wood, i thinks). The human body can deal with temps up to about 140 °F, so they put little sensors on the machines and move the walls around it to find the clearances. Pretty neat stuff. I got this info from firefighter not from some codebook, so I could be wrong.


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## vvvv (Aug 3, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Robert, invest in a good, safe flue system and hearth for this stove. Maybe overkill it a little bit. The Scandia is not going to fall apart on you. If it's essentially new and it is only going to get occasional usage in a cabin, it could be fine for several years. Go ahead and install it. And be sure to feel free to ask any questions you may have about the installation. If the hearth and flue are done well, and you burn dry wood in this stove, it will likely be fine. A new stove is not going to be 100% safer because the one variable is still going to be the person running the stove. Like my dad used to say - the most dangerous part of a car is the nut behind the wheel. Go for the stove you have and run it safely. I think you will be fine.


glad 2 hear voice of reason


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## DAKSY (Aug 3, 2010)

Like my dad used to say - the most dangerous part of a car is the nut behind the wheel.

I tell folks that wood stoves are as safe as the nut on the handle. 
I agree with you, BG, that little guy in a code compliant install & burned
correctly, will do exactly what the OP wants - heat his cabin SAFELY.


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## begreen (Aug 3, 2010)

Yeah, I think this thread got off on the wrong foot because of the question posed in the title. I see the Scandia somewhat similar to a Yugo. Would I recommend one, no. But if my uncle gave me one with a hundred miles on it, would it be ok to drive it occasionally? Yes. I would recommend putting on some good tires (hearth), make sure the exhaust wasn't rusted out or bent (flue), use only good, dry fuel, and drive it safely within it's limits. If you only drove it for a 1000 miles a year, under 50mph, you could get many years of driving out of it. I still wouldn't recommend it for a daily commuter on the freeway because that would start to bring in reliability questions, stability and braking at high speed. But for taking a weekend drive in the country, it should be fine. 

As long as the Scandia's integrity is good, it is not going to overfire any more than any other stove as long as it is driven responsibly. Like driving, just make sure you are aware and sober when burning the fire. You might just want to have fires in it while you are awake and use the propane heater for overnight until you are familiar and comfortable with the stove's operation. If you see signs of defects developing, let the fire go out. Then take a picture of the concern and post it here.


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## Battenkiller (Aug 3, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Battenkiller said:
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?

We're not in disagreement here.  I'm _not_ recommending that this stove should be installed with an 18" clearance.  If you read what I wrote, I clearly say that at 900ºF, a stove of this size will (eventually) raise the temperature of a surface 18" away to 250º.  Nowhere did I say this is a safe temp.  Pyrolysis can occur at sustained temps as low as 200º.   But let's face facts, no one is going to be running that stove at 900º, not for very long anyway.  I see no compelling reason to have to increase the clearance beyond what is stated on the tag (24" from the sides, 26" from the back).  PFS seems to be an independant testing facility that used to test stoves for the hearth industry, but these days are only testing for the wood products industry.  The tag says the unit is U.L. compliant, so why is everybody worrying the owner of the stove?  He's got a free stove, let's get together and help him get it installed safely and burning in it properly.

For the record, I don't ever let anything near my stove get above 140º ('cept the cement floor below it).  That's about 36" clearance from the (unlined) sides during my hottest fires, about 42" clearance in the front, 20" from the top of my single wall flue pipe elbow, as measured right here at BK Laboratories using a cheap IR thermometer. ;-)


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## Jags (Aug 3, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> and sober when burning the fire.



Whoa - slow down, now your just getting carried away.


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## begreen (Aug 3, 2010)

I knew that would get a rise out of the peanut gallery. But for a new woodburner i think it correlates with a good measure of safety.


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## fossil (Aug 3, 2010)

I _never_ get behind the wheel of my Yugo without a few stiff drinks under my belt.   :coolsmirk:


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## BrotherBart (Aug 3, 2010)

Where do ya go to find the "required hearth heat shield (HHS-150)" required by the label?


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## vvvv (Aug 3, 2010)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Where do ya go to find the "required hearth heat shield (HHS-150)" required by the label?


NFPA 211?


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## begreen (Aug 3, 2010)

fossil said:
			
		

> I _never_ get behind the wheel of my Yugo without a few stiff drinks under my belt.   :coolsmirk:



I prefer the drinks in my mouth. Under the belt gets uncomfortable and damp.


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## begreen (Aug 3, 2010)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Where do ya go to find the "required hearth heat shield (HHS-150)" required by the label?



Docs for the stove are in the Hearth.com wiki section. They show an optional hearth heat shield that bolts about halfway down on the legs. Looks like it wouldn't be hard to fabricate one. 

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/Scandia_Stoves/


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## Battenkiller (Aug 3, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> BrotherBart said:
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Thanks, BG.  Almost 20 years after I first got the stove, I finally have an owner's manual...

... one year after I stopped using it. :roll:  :lol:


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## vvvv (Aug 3, 2010)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

> BeGreen said:
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nonsensical joke= math dont work


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## robertjp (Aug 3, 2010)

Im getting more amazed by the minute with the knowlege you guys have about these. Now I even have an owners manual. Thanks. Sounds like if it is installed correctly and strict guidelines are followed with the chiminey, maybe I could use it. Mind you it is occasional use in fall and on weekends. I wonder if Franklin is the same as Lavec since it is a "Scandia" model and both from Warick RI?. It does have an external heat shield except it is not halfway down the legs as in the diagram but maybe 1/8 down. Thanks everyone for your input. You guys are awesome.


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## gibson (Aug 4, 2010)

Is anyone else thinking "patio stove"?  I would love to have that, leave the door open, and fire up on the patio.  Cast iron chiminea.


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