# Newbie Needs Assistance



## CombatVetFamilyMan (Dec 20, 2012)

Newbie needs assistance....
I had a Tarm Solo Plus 40 (no storage) installed in the basement of a new construction 2 floor colonial with a bonus room above the garage. approx 2400 sq/ft. House is heated with baseboard units, garage and basement are not heated. I've never had a wood boiler before (moved from the city into the woods of New Hampshire). I've been playing with load size with the various outdoor temps. After two nights of not sleeping because it was 80 F in the upstairs during the night, I shut down the unit and am running on LP, not what I want to do but the wife is pregnant, so.....you know...happy wife, happy life. The temp on the first floor was 62-64 F. The outdoor temp during the night was approx 20 F. I have the valve set to open when the tank reaches 140 F, I have the fan speed running at approx 70%. the valve I'll call the safety valve is set to open if the tank gets to 200 F.  The 2nd floor is the dump zone but temp in the tank has not gone over 200 F. Grundfos circulator pumps are set on high for the two zones on the first floor and low for the upstairs zone. When I went to bed I added 2-3 more pieces of wood in the fire box that was only coals.
This was the first Tarm for the installer so I had another guy who has installed several come and look at the set up and he told me it was correct, both plumbing and wiring. I was thinking about closing off the 2nd floor zone at night.
Any suggestions? Go easy on me, I'm just a rookie!  I also have no training in plumbing or HVAC.
I will post photo's of wiring later tonight or tomorrow.  Thanks in advance!


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## mikefrommaine (Dec 20, 2012)

So the problem is the house is overheating on the second floor? Because the overheat loop is running even though the boiler is under 200 degrees?

And by 'tank' do you mean the tarm?


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## CombatVetFamilyMan (Dec 20, 2012)

mikefrommaine said:


> So the problem is the house is overheating on the second floor? Because the overheat loop is running even though the boiler is under 200 degrees?
> 
> And by 'tank' do you mean the tarm?


 
Yes Mike, I mean the tarm when I say the tank. 
I have no control over the temp on the 2nd floor.
-Dan


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## mikefrommaine (Dec 20, 2012)

Could be a couple different things.

The flow check may not be keeping the upstairs from thermosiphoning when the wood boiler is running.

Could be the aquastat that is supposed to turn on the overheat (2nd floor) zone  is set to low. The numbers on the dial aren't that accurate. So that aquastat may be turning on your second floor zone when the boiler is only at 185 or so.


The green box on your back wall is a taco sr zone control. It should have lights on the right side that show which zones are calling for heat. When the wood boiler is up to temp and the upstairs thermostat is turned down is the light for the second floor zone on?


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## Quincy (Dec 20, 2012)

You might need a weighted check valve to keep the hot water from rising to the second floor . The circs have an internal check in them on the output side of the pump there could be an obstruction caught in the valve keeping it in the open position allowing heated water to migrate, just a guess .


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## Clarkbug (Dec 22, 2012)

Dan,

Does the upstairs have any issues when you run on LP?  Just thinking that would help eliminate the thought of the need for a weighted check, since if you needed the check, you would overheat regardless of the fuel source. 

Is your Solo shutting down once it gets itself up to temp?  Or does it continue to fire? I would think what MikefromMaine has mentioned may be worth looking into.  See what your zone controller says vs. your overheat aquastat is reading.  You said you have "the valve set to open at 140 degrees".  What valve in particular do you mean?


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## stee6043 (Dec 24, 2012)

It's worth noting that just because the Grundfos says "check valve included" on the back doesn't mean it's actually in there.  They come with a sticker to apply on the back if you remove the check valve.  It's entirely possible that your plumber removed them and didn't apply the sticker.

Ghost flows should be any easy thing to trouble shoot based on the fact that each of your zones have a shut off.  Run your fire the way you normally would on a night when the upstairs would overheat.  Once you feel the upstairs starting to rise in temp go down and shut off the ball valve on that zone.

It should be pretty obvious if your pumps are off and you still have heat going up to the 2nd floor zone that you're getting flow where you don't want it.  The 200F water in your boiler wants to go up pretty badly, especially if you have cold water upstairs.  I'd personally think you'll need more than the integrated check valves to prevent this flow.  Adding check valves would be pretty easy for your plumber.  I wonder if he struggled with the fact that your second floor is the dump zone.  This means that in a no-power situation you have to have flow to that zone.  As such, he really should be adding a normally opened zone valve to that zone and not simply a weighted check valve (I think).

And last, with this type of boiler you shouldn't have to "play with the load".  Once it's properly running you should get consistent heat on every floor with very little guess work.  What you're experiencing is a plumbing issue and not a "fact of life" for heating with wood.


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## flyingcow (Dec 25, 2012)

I am just throwing this out there to see if t sticks. Any chance you have the Termovar loading valve? I had a ghost flow problem with it that only went away once a zone valve was out on it. I'm sure that info is of no real help, take it with a few grains of salt....and lemon...plus tequila.

But if your heating system worked fine on the existing furnace, seems that you might have a control wiring( in the wood boiler) that is that keeping your upstairs zone open.

Also, my house is 15 yrs old. The automag zone valves need new magnets and sometimes when my wood boiler gets rolling good the automags are weak and get over run and "leak" by. If run on just the oil furnace this doesn't happen.

Call the guys at Bioheat Tarm in Lyme. Check with them(if you haven;t already). They may be of help on the install.

I agree with Stee, this has nothing to do with how you load your boiler.


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## CombatVetFamilyMan (Dec 27, 2012)

Thanks everyone for responding, sorry I haven't replied in a few days but we just brought home kid #2 yesterday.  Several days ago I adjusted the aquastat about +20 F more than what it was originally set at.  I haven't had any overheating problems upstairs since.  I had no idea how inaccurate they can be (I have Honeywell aquastats).  My TACO was running correctly, only the zones calling for heat were lit up.  I also have Honeywell thermostats and now I'm curious as to how accurate they are.  I'm thinking about changing them out to digital ones.  Any suggestions for thermostats?  Thanks for everyones help, I really appreciate it.


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## BoilerMan (Dec 27, 2012)

Do your thermostats have a mercury tip bulb in them?  Personally, I think they are the best ones for no-nonsense stats.  Congrats on the kid# 2!  They sure do change things.  Just because it's digital doesn't mean it's more accurate, just digital.

TS


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## Clarkbug (Dec 28, 2012)

CombatVetFamilyMan said:


> Thanks everyone for responding, sorry I haven't replied in a few days but we just brought home kid #2 yesterday. Several days ago I adjusted the aquastat about +20 F more than what it was originally set at. I haven't had any overheating problems upstairs since. I had no idea how inaccurate they can be (I have Honeywell aquastats). My TACO was running correctly, only the zones calling for heat were lit up. I also have Honeywell thermostats and now I'm curious as to how accurate they are. I'm thinking about changing them out to digital ones. Any suggestions for thermostats? Thanks for everyones help, I really appreciate it.


 
Glad you got it figured out!  Aquastats can have a variable or fixed deadband that sometimes plays havok on getting them tuned in right.  Just tweak it until you find the sweet spot. 

I would only swap thermostats if you are looking to add programming (the benefits of which are debatable, depending on who you ask) or your others are broken.  I changed mine out to get programmable ones, only because I was having issues in my first year and needed to extend how long my storage would last. 

Congrats on #2!


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## CombatVetFamilyMan (Jan 1, 2013)

I spoke too soon!  Over heated two nights in a row upstairs.  I think I figured out that the Grundfos pump is not closing and it's always open to the second floor.  The Taco showed that the second floor was not calling for heat but it was still flowing.  I shut off the valve above the pump and for the last 6 hours there is no over heating.....and there is no heat upstairs.  No heat upstairs is better than overheating for the time being.  How hard is it to replace/repair the circulator pump?  Any suggestions? The house is still under warranty, is this something I should tell the builder about?
-Dan


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## mikefrommaine (Jan 2, 2013)

The installer may have taken the internal flow check out of your pump. Or the internal flow check may be blocked open by some debris in the system.  You might not notice the thermosiphoning when burning propane because the propane boiler cools off much quicker between calls for heat.

If your house has a warranty I'd call the builder and let them know. Its easy to pull the circulator and check but once you start messing with their work then they have an easy way to deny responsibility if so inclined.


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## CombatVetFamilyMan (Jan 2, 2013)

I also forgot to mention that one of the circulator pumps is constantly running, even when no zone is calling for heat.  If you look at the first picture I posted it's the circulator on the lower left.  It's wired from the pump, to a box, then to the Taco.


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## Clarkbug (Jan 2, 2013)

What does that pump connect to?  And what is the box its wired to?


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## CombatVetFamilyMan (Jan 3, 2013)

Hey, that circulator pump I was just talking about....I think it is installed backwards, it's pumping water to the right, I looked at the schematics and if I'm reading it correctly I think it's supposed to pumping to the left side.  I took a quick picture of the schematic.  I called the builder, waiting on a call back.  Could this cause the overheating problem? I'm thinking so


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## flyingcow (Jan 3, 2013)

I know it sounds like a sales pitch.....but the schematics of a Tarm don't lie. At times though, it seems like you're looking in a mirror, to figure the layout on paper vs what you're looking at.


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## Clarkbug (Jan 3, 2013)

Do you know which diagram that is?  It should say something at the top like "PT-1" or "Solo-2".  That way we can post a link and see the whole thing.  Is it the right diagram?  I only ask because Tarm did a great job and put out a bunch of them.  Yours should show the wood boiler and the backup boiler on the same sheet.

But if your pump is going the wrong way, that could certainly cause some of the issues....


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## mikefrommaine (Jan 3, 2013)

I agree that could be your problem. That pump could be pushing through the flow check on your 2nd floor zone. Maybe only happening on that zone because its the last zone on the manifold?


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## CombatVetFamilyMan (Jan 4, 2013)

Called the plumber and he didn't believe me when I told him.  After an hour or so he called me back and told me he would not be able to make it out until Monday to reverse the pump.  I ended up doing it myself and it was pretty easy.  Now I have another concern.
The pump I fixed is now pumping towards the "Forward" line of the boiler.  This doesn't make sense to me and now I'm thinking that the plumber has the whole damn thing backwards.


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## mikefrommaine (Jan 4, 2013)

The pump should be either pumping towards the return  or away from the supply  of the wood boiler.


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## mikefrommaine (Jan 4, 2013)

On further thought... Can you post the full diagram that the plumber used? 

I'm thinking that it will show that the supply and return manifolds for the house supply should be connected. Which I'm not seeing in your pics. The pump you are concerned about is probably the 'near boiler' pump and is wires to run whenever the wood boiler is up to temp. When no zones are calling for heat there needs to be a primary loop for the near boiler pump to circulate water. Without the headers connected threre is no where for the water to circulate when no zones are calling for heat, so the water pushes through one of the zone pumps.


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## CombatVetFamilyMan (Jan 9, 2013)

I don't have the schematics the plumber used at this time.  From what he was saying it sounded like he had some plans drawn up by someone at FW Webb, not sure why...  Plumber is FINALLY coming tomorrow morning.  The supply and return manifolds are not connected.  I'll let you know what happens.  thanks for the help everyone.


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## Clarkbug (Jan 10, 2013)

Hmmmm.  In your post above you had a picture of a partial schematic.  Is that not the one that was used on your install?


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## dogwood (Jan 10, 2013)

Looks like the partial schematic posted is an older dated version of one fully pictured on page 8 of the following link to the Tarm Plumbing Schematics book: http://www.tarmbiomass.com/images/stories/documents/woodboilerplumbingschematic1211.pdf

The schematic you posted "DWG NO Solo 2, Two Boiler Direct Design No Thermal Storage" is dated 8/11/08. The newer one in the link above with the same name is dated 7/14/10. Maybe if you compared the two diagrams you could come up with something. I don't know if the newer diagram had any revisions or not, that might be relevant to your problem. 

Mike


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## CombatVetFamilyMan (Jan 10, 2013)

Ok, the plumber came over today.  He took apart the Grundfos pump for the 2nd floor zone that I've been having overheating problems with.  He said that it looked like there was some hard water build up inside and that he cleaned it.  I doubted this would solve the issue, but he's the expert, and I'm just the home owner.  I asked if that if the forward and return manifolds should be connected and he advised me that they were already connected inside the LP boiler.  He politely said that the whole issue could be operator error.  I've been reading everything on this thread and others too, especially the posts from mikefrommaine, Clarkbug, and flyingcow, and felt pretty good w




hen I defended the "operator error" claim.  The plumber provided me with the schematics he used.


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## CombatVetFamilyMan (Jan 10, 2013)

Not sure if it matters, but I have three zones, and the circulator pump that is closest to the boiler is pumping water to the right, away from the boiler, into the LP boiler


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## Clarkbug (Jan 10, 2013)

Ok, this definitely helps us figure out how your system works.  Thanks!

The pump on the bottom of that diagram should be running whenever your wood boiler is fired up.  You said its pumping into the LP boiler, that should be coming out of the top (supply) of your wood boiler.  The other line that heads back to your wood boiler should go through a tempering device for temperature protection, then into the bottom (return) of your wood boiler.  Your house zones then return into the supply from the wood boiler.  This will keep your LP boiler warm.  Not the best arrangement, as it lowers the supply temps to your house from your wood boiler, but its the exact same arrangement I have   It works so far, and I cant complain, cause I havent burned a drop of oil yet this year. 

Having said all that, it really doesnt say for sure why your house is overheating.  My guess would be that the wood boiler pump (the one on the bottom of the diagram) is also inducing a flow through your second floor zone, even if the second floor pump isnt running.  Are there any other check valves anywhere in your system? 

And really, tell your guy that it cant be operator error if your house overheats.  You cant screw up adjusting the thermostat.


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## flyingcow (Jan 11, 2013)

FWIW- My heating system(oil ) was installed 16/17 yrs ago. Wood boiler, 4 or 5 yrs ago. My zone valves are auto mags, 16/17 yrs old. They're getting weak. When i fire up the wood boiler, the increased heat/pressure will bypass(overwhelm?) the zone valve on my first floor. Not a biggie as we need the heat anyways. But once in a while my upstairs zone will do the same. We keep the second floor at 60/62. But if this  happens and heat my upstairs to 64/66-ish, than it's too hot for us to sleep. That story is probably not going to help much. Someday I will remember to by new magnets for the zone valves.


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## mikefrommaine (Jan 11, 2013)

Here's what I think may be happening.  

The wood boiler pump is pushing through the internal flow check whenever no zones are calling for heat and the tarm is at temp. It only takes .3 psi to open a flow check. The diagram assumes the flow checks will prevent water from the wood boiler will not go into the zones when the tstats are satisfied. But I think since the piping to and from the boiler are only 1" and the supply header is 1.25" enough pressure is applied to the flow check to open it and allow some of the flow to go through the zones.


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## ewdudley (Jan 11, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> Here's what I think may be happening.
> 
> The wood boiler pump is pushing through the internal flow check whenever no zones are calling for heat and the tarm is at temp. It only takes .3 psi to open a flow check. The diagram assumes the flow checks will prevent water from the boiler will not go into the zones when the tstats are satisfied. But I think since the piping to and from the boiler are only 1" and the supply header is 1.25" enough pressure is applied to the flow check to open it and allow some of the flow to go through the zones.


But the parallel path is reverse flow through the upstairs zone and pump.  And upstairs zone has more thermo-siphon to work with.  If check valve for upstairs zone is not there or not seating that would explain it.

As a side note, it is very disappointing that both the professionals at FWW and the plumber on site failed to appreciate that, as Clarkbug points out,  the wood boiler flow through the gas boiler should be going the opposite direction.


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## rkusek (Jan 11, 2013)

ewdudley said:


> But the parallel path is reverse flow through the upstairs zone and pump. And upstairs zone has more thermo-siphon to work with. If check valve for upstairs zone is not there or not seating that would explain it.
> 
> As a side note, it is very disappointing that both the professionals at FWW and the plumber on site failed to appreciate that the wood boiler flow through the gas boiler should be going the opposite direction.


 Doesn't it make you wonder if someone at FWW mislabled it?


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## maple1 (Jan 11, 2013)

I can't tell since it's off the diagram, and it's not been clarified (unless I missed it) - does the wood boiler water go out the top of it to the LP, then return back to the bottom of the wood boiler? That diagram you posted suggests it might be the opposite - which is not right.

I think what is happening is simply that when the wood boiler circ is running, it's somehow pushing flow past the zone check valve (with 'added help' from the increased convection force from it being a higher zone) - although, as ew said, that shouldn't really happen either as the zone flow should be tending reverse with no call for heat.

As Clarkbug said, you should have return temperature protection plumbed in the boiler loop in the form of a tempering device (e.g. a danfoss valve). I'd consider that even more of a possible issue than the hot upstairs - if there's no return temp protection, it could cause damage to your boiler. Is it recommended or spec'd in the Tarm manual? I know it is in mine. Although, admittedly, without storage your return temps won't be as low as they could be with storage - so it might not be as serious as it first seems.

I think my suggestion would be to maybe add a zone valve to the zone piping - unless I've missed something, and unless his cleaning of the check has fixed it, that is. My system has a zone valve for each zone & only one circ - I never could figure the benefit of going with zoning by multiple circs, especially now with pumps like the Alpha.

And trying to attribute this to operator error is just wrong and even silly - did he say exactly what about how you were operating it is in error? If he was going there, he should have also explained why.

One more thing - is your wood boiler circ a 3 speed? Is it set on low? If it is a 3 speed, and not on low, try switching it to low.


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## CombatVetFamilyMan (Jan 11, 2013)

Apparently my last post didn't post half my message (def operator error).  Here's the email FWW sent to the plumber along with Tarm schematic,  I'll attach the the LP set up too.  
Circ is set on low.
MESSAGE
*Sent:* Tuesday, April 24, 2012 8:42 AM
*Subject:* eastman way
This is the closest to what we have at [deleted my address here]. Make sure he gets the Automag zone valve from the Tarm Guys  Powered closed 
The mixing valve shown is just a lo-temp option , Not needed here. Above the the boiler side concept drawing. More I look at this a modine might not be a good dump choice , Fan will not work very well with no power will it. Guess fin tube is the best choice , Mabye dump into 1st.floor baseboard zone after all…
END OF MESSAGE


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## maple1 (Jan 11, 2013)

You mentioned in your first post the boiler dumps into the second floor zone - but that it hadn't gotten hot enough to dump yet. But the second floor is where the issue is (coincidence?), and the dump circuit is not shown on the plumbing diagram - so how does that tie in and how is it configured? May or may not be an issue - but seeing it in the Tarm diagram, and not seeing it in the plumbing diagram, and seeing it mentioned in the email 'make sure he gets the automag' kind of raises some questions.


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## ewdudley (Jan 11, 2013)

maple1 said:


> You mentioned in your first post the boiler dumps into the second floor zone - but that it hadn't gotten hot enough to dump yet. But the second floor is where the issue is (coincidence?), and the dump circuit is not shown on the plumbing diagram - so how does that tie in and how is it configured? May or may not be an issue - but seeing it in the Tarm diagram, and not seeing it in the plumbing diagram, and seeing it mentioned in the email 'make sure he gets the automag' kind of raises some questions.




I think the auto mag is directly above the wood boiler.  Wood boiler supply is on right side (as you face the boiler) and tees towards the back to feed system and tees towards the front to feed dump circuit.


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## maple1 (Jan 11, 2013)

Yes, I now see what I think is a zone valve right above the boiler - but I'm still questioning the dump circuit since it isn't shown on the plumbing diagram and the email seems to imply it's the owners responsibility and it was said (I think) that the second floor zone is the dump circuit. Which is coincidentally where the problem is. I also don't see in the pics any extra piping that would tie into the zones if it was dumping to the second floor zone.

Wild shot but is there a chance it's dumping all the time for some reason? Like a n/c valve rather than a n/o, or it's not wired right? I'm not familiar with Automags so can't recognize it as an Automag in the pic - but it does kind of look like one of my zone valve motors on top rather than a magnet (might be me or the pic though).


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## ewdudley (Jan 11, 2013)

maple1 said:


> Wild shot but is there a chance it's dumping all the time for some reason? Like a n/c valve rather than a n/o, or it's not wired right?


OP reports above that dump zone aquastat was set too low and that was the cause of a prior episode of upstairs overheat.  That problem is supposed to have been resolved by adjusting the dump zone aquastat, but there reportedly  is still some flow through the upstairs circ.  If upstairs circ is not running then the only way the wood boiler flow can go through the upstairs zone is if there is reverse flow through the upstairs circ.


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## mikefrommaine (Jan 11, 2013)

ewdudley said:


> .  If upstairs circ is not running then the only way the wood boiler flow can go through the upstairs zone is if there is reverse flow through the upstairs circ.



I'm not understanding what you mean by this completely. 

This is what I was thinking:
 When no zone circs are operating and the tarm is at temp the wood boiler (bottom of pic) will be running and flow through lp boiler. So water is being pumped up and out of the lp  boiler. It then goes up the right most of steel pipe (1.25?)  For things to work right the flow should then go through the fist t into the (1"?) copper pipe. The internal flow checks should block any flow through the zones. But isn't it possible that enough pressure is being applied to the flow check to allow it to open?

Fwiw I used a tarm diagram (two boiler direct)  before  I had storage that worked great. Id have your plumber follow that diagram.


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## mikefrommaine (Jan 11, 2013)

CombatVetFamilyMan said:


> MESSAGE
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 24, 2012 8:42 AM
> *Subject:* eastman way
> This is the closest to what we have at [deleted my address here]. Make sure he gets the Automag zone valve from the Tarm Guys  Powered closed
> ...



Maybe I'm reading this wrong. But is the "professional" saying that a 3 way bypass to keep return temps up not needed? I didn't see a danfoss or termovar in the actual pics...

Who actually sold you the tarm? And have you talked to them?


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## ewdudley (Jan 11, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> Maybe I'm reading this wrong. But is the "professional" saying that a 3 way bypass to keep return temps up not needed? I didn't see a danfoss or termovar in the actual pics...


It would probably be better if there was a return protection mixer, but in a situation like this with no storage there's a case to be made for not bothering with one.  If the wood boiler can keep up and the loads are baseboard then return temperature shouldn't be a problem.  But again, it would be nicer to have return protection and not worry about it.


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## ewdudley (Jan 11, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> I'm not understanding what you mean by this completely.


Just look at the flow leaving the wood boiler circ.  It comes to the tee where it can go into the bottom of the fossil fuel boiler or it can go backwards into the return manifold.  Only the zone pumps can force flow forwards through the load circuits.  The wood boiler circ can't pump forwards through the load circuits because then it would be pumping against itself where the load circuits tee back into the line that goes to the bottom of the fossil fuel boiler.


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## mikefrommaine (Jan 11, 2013)

ewdudley said:


> Just look at the flow leaving the wood boiler circ.  It comes to the tee where it can go into the bottom of the fossil fuel boiler or it can go backwards into the return manifold.  Only the zone pumps can force flow forwards through the load circuits.  The wood boiler circ can't pump forwards through the load circuits because then it would be pumping against itself where the load circuits tee back into the line that goes to the bottom of the fossil fuel boiler.


Thanks, now I understand.


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## ewdudley (Jan 11, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> Thanks, now I understand.


Took me a while.  You want to think the pumps should obey the arrows 'cause that's how they're drawn.


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## mikefrommaine (Jan 11, 2013)

If only it was that easy


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## Clarkbug (Jan 13, 2013)

The email that the OP posted here frightens me a little, just based on the tone and attitude in it.

OP, I would tell the installer that they need to come back and put in the return water protection for you ASAP.  as EW said, you can make a case for not having it, but I would check to see if Tarm will honor their warranty if one is not installed.  If not, make the installer put it in.

Also, there should be a difference between an overheat zone and a dump zone, at least in my mind.  I have fin tube installed with an automag valve along the ceiling of my basement in case of power outage. But I also have an aquastat installed in the top of my boiler that will turn on one of my zones if the boiler temp gets to high.  Do you have one or both of these features? 

As an aside, the way your system is installed is common around here for folks that use an OWB, so a lot of heating guys just plumb that way all the time.  It keeps a sidearm hot water heater usable regardless of the fuel source getting used, so they just always install them that way.  I found this out after I had used a different Tarm diagram,and came home to the one that you posted above.  And strangely enough my guy talked with the folks at Webb........   Hoping to get that changed out to closely spaced tees or a TwinTee this spring.


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## Ldl0431usmc (Jan 13, 2013)

It doesn't look like the boiler was piped according to any diagram Tarm Biomass has produced. From what I can see in the pictures, it was piped in parallel with the existing gas boiler.  Using the Tarm drawing to get the icons, draw what you have and I'll see what I can do to help you get this thing straightened out.


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## ewdudley (Jan 13, 2013)

Ldl0431usmc said:


> It doesn't look like the boiler was piped according to any diagram Tarm Biomass has produced. From what I can see in the pictures, it was piped in parallel with the existing gas boiler.


It's hydraulically equivalent to the Tarm 'Solo4' diagram, minus the wood boiler return mixer valve.  It fact Tarm titles it "Two Boiler Parallel Design, No Thermal Storage".  

It's a viable configuration as long as the system emitters work well enough despite mixing wood boiler supply with system return, as Tarm points out in the applicability note.


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## BoilerMan (Jan 13, 2013)

Clarkbug said:


> I would check to see if Tarm will honor their warranty if one is not installed. If not, make the installer put it in.
> 
> Also, there should be a difference between an overheat zone and a dump zone, at least in my mind. I have fin tube installed with an automag valve along the ceiling of my basement in case of power outage.


 
I think if the one could make an upstairs loop work well for the gravity loop if the piping allows for good gravity flow.  Generally though the dump is not wanted upstairs so it is in the living room etc, but the upstairs could be used for both.  Pipe a NO zone valve (automag) i parrellel with the flow check to allow for gravity flow.  I think Maple1 does this if I recall. 

The Tarm and warranty is an excellent point!  I'd check in the manual or email them and find out for sure.

TS


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## Clarkbug (Jan 14, 2013)

Taylor Sutherland said:


> I think if the one could make an upstairs loop work well for the gravity loop if the piping allows for good gravity flow. Generally though the dump is not wanted upstairs so it is in the living room etc, but the upstairs could be used for both. Pipe a NO zone valve (automag) i parrellel with the flow check to allow for gravity flow. I think Maple1 does this if I recall.
> 
> The Tarm and warranty is an excellent point! I'd check in the manual or email them and find out for sure.
> 
> TS


 
I dont disagree with you Taylor, that it could be made to work using an upstairs zone.  I just didnt get that impression since the e-mail he had posted talked about switching from a Modine (Unit heater) to fin tube for a power outage dump zone.  My thoughts are that something is wired up funky with the aquastat/configuration of the loops for his overheat.  My post above was just to try and help get all brains here on the same page for problem solving.

Maybe the way its wired is the issue.  Sounds like the second floor zone always runs when the wood boiler is activated, so maybe there is some linking between aquastats going on?


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## CombatVetFamilyMan (Jan 16, 2013)

Ok folks, plumber connected the forward and return manifolds together and added a check valve (cite pictures).  it has been warm the past few days.  finally cold out today so I fired it up hoping the problem would be solved.  It was not.  The 2nd floor circ was not running as that zone was not calling for heat however hot water was still flowing right on through the pump to the 2nd floor.  Maybe replace the pump?


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## maple1 (Jan 16, 2013)

Is flow going past your overheat zone valve? That's one thing to rule out while there's a fire going - the dump circuit not being right.

I'm thinking you might need either a check valve with more resistance to it than the one built into the pump, or a zone valve installed there for that zone. I'm doubtful a new pump will help - unless the internal check is somehow messed up. Whatever the problem is though, it's not you - I'd keep after them until they get it fixed, since it's a new install.

One more thing I'd check though - are you sure the circ is not running for that zone all the time? Maybe un-wire it temporarily to see if that makes a difference. Sometimes it is very hard to tell if they're running or not, they run pretty quiet. If un-wiring the pump stops it, there must be a control issue - e.g. if it's plumbed to dump heat in the second floor, it somehow thinks it's too hot all the time. Or maybe an overheat aquastat just needs turned up (outside chance of that likely). But we still don't know much about your dumping/overheat setup, as it's not on their diagram.


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