# Cracked Glass on Pellet Stove?



## LRRifleman (Jan 25, 2011)

Hello!

I have had my Regency GF55 Pellet Stove a few days more than a month. Earlier today, while cleaning the soot off the stove's glass, I discovered a crack in the front pane of the fire chamber's glass. I realize the fire chamber is supposed to be air-tight. I do have a CO sensor in the house, and it still shows "0" for CO ppm. 

I have two questions:
1) Until the cracked glass is replaced, is it still safe to use the pellet stove? [Keeping in mind, I do have a CO sensor that indicates 0ppm of CO.]
2) Could the cracked glass be contributing to the high burn level of pellets? [To date, my stove has consumed approximately 42 forty pound bags of pellets in about 33 or 34 days.]

Thank you for your advice!


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## AVIVIII (Jan 25, 2011)

I would absolutely discontinue use of the stove until you have it repaired.

Your pellet usage seems pretty normal to me.


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## FordMastertech (Jan 25, 2011)

X2 
I would not use it. If that glass fully fails it could be a real *BIG* problem.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 25, 2011)

1) No.
2) No.


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## www_godzilla (Jan 26, 2011)

You also need to figure how the glass got cracked also. If that glass breaks and those hot sparks or embers fly into the living area.....you could be paying a high price for little gain.


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## littlesmokey (Jan 26, 2011)

Describe the crack. The "glass" is not a silicate product like window glass, but a high temperature ceramic. I saw a stove glass that looked cracked, but it was a aclusion (sp), fancy name for a flaw. Apparently occuring when it was poured. It did not affect the stability of the piece, just made it different. If it's a flake and stable, order the glass and have the dealer rush it, but burn the stove at lower settings while you are there. You don't need to worry about CO seeping out, the air would be drawn from your room into the stove. If you are uneasy about using the stove, don't push it. Location and type of break would determine whether or not it might open up, but you need to describe the problem a little better.


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## LRRifleman (Jan 26, 2011)

Thank you. 

THE "crack": 
As you are facing the stove, the crack is in the lower left hand corner of the "front" glass pane.
The "crack" starts near the lower left hand corner, and arcs about 3" to the right of the left side of the crack.
The height of the crack "arc" is no more than 1" above the base of the crack line. 
"Glass" is not yet "falling" from the pane. 
It looks much like a seam between two pieces of glass that are placed together on end. 
For much of the time, the stove has been operated at the lowest constant feed temperature setting, and only for an hour or so at at time on maybe 3 occassions has it been operated at temperature setting 2 (out of 5). 

Hopefully, this description of the crack is helpful.


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## arnash (Jan 26, 2011)

It sounds like a simple aesthetic issue, and not one of safety.  My Whitfield has a crack near the bottom of the left pane and it could be decades old.  A glass crack is insignificant as far as allowing air to enter the stove from someplace other than the blower.  It can't compare to a leaking gasket, and even that won't make any visible difference in the flame, as I discovered with mine.  It might have been caused by cold water from a child's wet hand or a spilled drink or maybe the glass was cut just a hair too large and when it heated and expanded it didn't have enough space to expand.   You'll probably never know.   Too overcome your concerns about safety, you should run it hot for a time while you're present.  If it doesn't crack further, then it probably isn't ever going to inexplicable fall apart.  Glass doesn't just fall out of frames.  Like windows, it probably has some kind of sticky caulk or putty to seal it tightly.


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## AVIVIII (Jan 26, 2011)

Pictures or it doesn't exist!

I would still err to the side of caution, especially if you have another heat source.


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## LRRifleman (Jan 26, 2011)

Hi!

Principle of the matter ... the pellet stove is new and it needs to be made right.

Reality of the matter ... I do not know how the glass cracked, nor how it will react with further heat build up. I do know that neither of my children nor the dog "touched" the stove, because of the safety gate. I know I did not "hit" the stove with anything, or have the stove hit anything. What I do know, is that the pane IS broken, and with the kids and the dog (not to mention myself) I can not risk that the glass will not shatter like an IED. I am too scarred from an MVA, and I can not jeopardize the kids. 

The pellet stove was purchased as a supplement to the gas heat, which was turned on last night for the first time in about 34 days. Hopefully the stove will be repaired quickly!


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 26, 2011)

1: NO, you are playing with fire.  Not the correct, safe, or sane thing to do. 

In fact check your manual.


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## LRRifleman (Jan 26, 2011)

By shutting down the pellet stove, and reverting to the gas furnace, how am I playing with fire and being unsafe?

As an aside, I comic book tends to be more informative than the owner's manual that came with the stove.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 26, 2011)

LRRifleman said:
			
		

> By shutting down the pellet stove, and reverting to the gas furnace, how am I playing with fire and being unsafe?



My comment was for the folks who seem to think it is ok to fire that pellet stove with a cracked glass in it question 1 of your original post.


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## nailed_nailer (Jan 26, 2011)

I'd replace it.

I have purchased Ceramic Glass for a different application from these guys.

http://www.us.schott.com/hometech/english/products/robax/index.html

They used to be based in RI and made stove/fireplace ceramic glass.
I was buying 10"x10"x1/8" high temp work trays that I could use from workbench to oven.
5 years ago they were $27.00 each.  Last I checked they were in the $75 range.

I have called them recently (about a year ago) and was told they will sell retail.

Good Luck,

---Nailer---


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## LRRifleman (Jan 26, 2011)

@ Nailer, 

Thank you ... I will keep that in mind. However, this stove is barely a month old, and is stillunder warranty. 
For what I paid for the stove and a butcher job installation, the dealer is going to make good on this!

Ed


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## ChrisWNY (Jan 26, 2011)

LR - that cracked glass should be covered under warranty (considering your stove is barely older than a month old), unless it was broken due to some sort of consequential damage (i.e. someone threw a baseball at it). Otherwise, it could be a legitimate manufacturer's defect. Operating the stove with cracked glass is both unsafe and unwise. Contact your dealer or the manufacturer, get them to overnight you a new part. Be demanding, you paid a good deal of hard-earned cash to purchase something that you and your family will rely on for heat, there is no excuse for the vendor or manufacturer to keep you waiting or expect you to pay anything for the glass replacement.


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## LRRifleman (Jan 26, 2011)

@ Chris, 

Thanks. Stopped by the store where I bought it and was really educated this morning. 
I was informed that the glass was covered under warranty; however, the regional distribution is out of stock, and does not anticipate it in stock until next friday ... that is Friday in February. 
When I then asked that whomever repairs it NOT be the lead guy on the installation, I found he will soon be history because of his tendency to misrepresent the business and taking shortcuts. 
Upon return from the store and taking my son to daycare, I took a closer look at the glass and it is completely cracked through. I am most definitely happy I chose to clean the glass last night before dinner, which only leads me to wonder, how long it was cracked!

To all ... is it common for the pellet ashes to collect and "drift" along the door, and NOT drop through to the ash bin? Apparently, the crack was "hidden" by the "drifting" ashes and the soot that collected on the firebox side of the stove. 

Thanks to all!
Ed


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 26, 2011)

Ed,

The ashes will go all over the firebox area.  The stove tries to pull them up and out, but they follow the laws of physics.

Once out of the influence of the exhaust fan they start to fall.


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## littlesmokey (Jan 26, 2011)

LRR, 

I hope you are not misunderstanding my comments. By all means get the glass replaced, ASAP. The issue is not to panic, you can , in my opinion burn the stove, just don't stress the panel with excessive heating. Low or medium settings should be OK. Ceram is not like window glass, as far as my experience goes it does not shatter, it will crack, but it sounds like it's contained in a corner. As far as falling out, the gasket around the edge will stop that, even in the extreme. 

KY intention was to put your mind at ease about your stove. I work with lots of glass in one of my "hats" in business. Wrapped unstressed glass shelving has a mysterious ability to crack. I don't know why, but a simple bump in handling, A jam into a frame, a slip against another plate will start a stress type crack in 3/8th glass that may take a month or more to work to the surface. I may have been in the manufacturing process the glass was damaged, and should be replaced. Your dealer shouldn't even raise an eyebrow. If he's a good guy and doesn't stock a piece, he may take it out of a floor model. Give him a break by asking when you can bring the door in to get it fixed., They just lift off the pins, usually, your stove may be different, but the dealer can tell you how. A five minute job in shop is an hour or more in the home. 

No one's at fault, it's just one of those things.


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## slls (Jan 26, 2011)

Out of stock, you are not the only one with cracked glass.


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## arnash (Jan 27, 2011)

About the safety of the cracked glass, aside from stove glass not being ordinary glass (perhaps it's "safety glass" or "tempered" glass or something even more exceptional like ceramic glass) it should be noted that the pressure inside the burn chamber is negative pressure so the interior suction is pulling on the glass, not pushing on it.  Also, it's unreasonable to assume that fumes could pass through the crack since both sides of the crack are probably un-separated, and anyway the direction of air would be to move into the stove, not out of it.   It would be interesting to hear any theory about exactly how the crack constitutes a safety issue.  I can't think of one though it's easy to let ones imagination assume the worst possible scenario even though it doesn't reflect reality.  But my stove experience is barely more than one month of use, so I'm curious about any stories of similar situations that went bad, and how it happened.  Anyone have any theories or stories to share?  I know enough to know that there's a lot I don't know, so knowledge is always preferable to the presumptions of common sense.


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## littlesmokey (Jan 27, 2011)

arnash said:
			
		

> About the safety of the cracked glass, aside from stove glass not being ordinary glass (perhaps it's "safety glass" or "tempered" glass or something even more exceptional like ceramic glass) it should be noted that the pressure inside the burn chamber is negative pressure so the interior suction is pulling on the glass, not pushing on it.  Also, it's unreasonable to assume that fumes could pass through the crack since both sides of the crack are probably un-separated, and anyway the direction of air would be to move into the stove, not out of it.   It would be interesting to hear any theory about exactly how the crack constitutes a safety issue.  I can't think of one though it's easy to let ones imagination assume the worst possible scenario even though it doesn't reflect reality.  But my stove experience is barely more than one month of use, so I'm curious about any stories of similar situations that went bad, and how it happened.  Anyone have any theories or stories to share?  I know enough to know that there's a lot I don't know, so knowledge is always preferable to the presumptions of common sense.




Whooaaa take a deep breathe. You are absolutely correct in the logic. You are now anointed Number  ! logic corrector. Don't qualify your stove experience, no one else does. You are right and should be proud of your post, just use few lines and get out :roll:


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 27, 2011)

You never operate a stove with a cracked, broken, or missing fire box door glass.

This has nothing to do with a negative firebox pressure, presence or absence of any detectors regardless of type, your opinion, your logic, or anything else.

You have a compromised firebox enclosure.

Even that crack can be made into an opening that can allow the burning contents out of the firebox.

If the folks that run these lovely little devices can allow things to build up to this point:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AORyO_rEpo&feature=related  what do you think would happen if the cerra glass is cracked?


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## arnash (Jan 28, 2011)

"Even that crack can be made into an opening that can allow the burning contents out of the firebox." 

    I'd sure like to hear an explanation of how that is possible.  Maybe the makers of the glass or the makers of the doors could come up with some fact that would confirm that opinion, but until then,  I wouldn't presume that the glass is not firmly fixed in the door and not subject to pieces falling out just because it has a crack.  But even if a piece of glass fell in (it can't fall out) and some embers escaped, if ones floor is not flammable (wool, cotton carpet) then what's to fear?  Many people have cold linoleum or tile or hardwood floors that are impervious to little embers.  It's not anything like an open fireplace or wood stove that can shoot out hot pieces like popcorn.  Wood pellets don't pop.

   Also,  there probably isn't much of a different in stress on the glass when it's cold and not in use and when it's hot, considering that the glass expands, due to heat, at the same rate as the door, they expand together so that prevents stress.  Hot or cold, there isn't a lot of difference.   And lumping a crack in with  broken or missing glass doesn't make as much sense as it seems, after all, it's a no-brainer that broken or missing glass is absolutely a a situation that renders the stove unsafe to use.  But I don't believe that that can be said of a crack since the glass can't just separate or fall out.  Or so I assume, does anyone know different?


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 28, 2011)

Did you watch the video?  Would you care to see another one?


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## arnash (Jan 31, 2011)

I didn't watch the video because I have dial-up.  But I have watch it and another now and don't see anything other than roaring fires that show lack of control of pellet feed rate, but don't seem to present a real danger of fire escaping the burn chamber.  If you could give a link to one related to cracked glass, I'd be willing to endure the long loading wait required to watch it.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 31, 2011)

arnash said:
			
		

> I didn't watch the video because I have dial-up.  But I have watch it and another now and don't see anything other than roaring fires that show lack of control of pellet feed rate, but don't seem to present a real danger of fire escaping the burn chamber.  If you could give a link to one related to cracked glass, I'd be willing to endure the long loading wait required to watch it.



That was not a case of lack of control of pellet feed rate, that was a delayed ignition, they are but one result of a dirty pellet stove.

The pellets smolder and char the gases produced fill the firebox, then a spark actually occurs and the gases light off, if you were paying attention you should have noted that the door was actually blown forward and smoke exited around the door.

Am I beginning to get through to you?

Now picture a cracked glass and the same thing taking place, you seem to think that pellet stoves operate normally all of the time, the fact is they don't.  

Too many people have them that don't have a clue.

Perhaps you should read a number of the manuals or you can take a chance on your own, but to recommend running the stove in that state to others is in two words, bad advice.


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## arnash (Feb 1, 2011)

My low-def version of the video lacked the detail you described.  The problem wasn't something that someone with a manual ignition stove is every going to see.   The problem wasn't due to the un-cracked glass, which, if cracked, wouldn't have made a difference in the outcome if the intact glass actually got blown-out.   but I'll agree with your concern about unexpected events, but so far my limited experience tells me that, like air travel -during which the landing is the most dangerous part, the most critical phase of using a pellet stove is during the firing-up of the burn pot.  I can't image not monitoring it since it is important with manual ignition that the flame not be too small or too large.  But once the stove is smoothly operating, the "flash over" phenomenon isn't going to happen -as long as the air flow isn't restricted because of a clogged burn pot which allows the temperature to fall, (causing smoldering and the build-up of gases).  
   So my view is that in normal operation, a crack in the glass doesn't present a danger, but I wouldn't be so presumptuous as to assume that others don't know of circumstances in which a crack might be a safety issue.  But if someone does, it should be shared.  The response of silence doesn't  convince one that such a possibility exists.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 1, 2011)

A large number of manufacturers do share that information by telling the owner of the stove to not operate the stove in that state.

Breckwell, Harman, Inca Metal Cutting (covers a very large number of stoves under a lot of brand names) ... in their manuals.


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## arnash (Feb 2, 2011)

But do they say why?  It's the "Why?" that's still a big question mark.  It may be simply a matter of legal philosophy in which the advice always is, "better safe than sorry" without giving any facts behind their instruction.

   Here's something the Advantage II manual says, "CONTINUOUS OPERATION: When operated correctly,
this appliance cannot be overfired."

   That's reassuring.  But it also says this,
"DISPOSING OF ASHES: Any ashes removed from the pellet stove must be deposited in a metal container
with a tight-fitting lid. The closed container of ashes should be placed on a noncombustible
floor or on the ground, well away from all combustible materials, outside of the dwelling pending final
disposal. If the ashes are disposed of by burial in soil or otherwise locally dispersed, they should
be retained in the closed container until all cinders have been thoroughly cooled. 

Every pellet stove user knows from experience that that instruction was not written for pellet stove ash 
but for WOOD stove ash.  (My sister learned the lesson the hard way after burning down her home.)

   So how can anyone have confidence in the scientific basis of their other safety instructions?


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 2, 2011)

"â€œDISPOSING OF ASHES: Any ashes removed from the pellet stove must be deposited in a metal container
with a tight-fitting lid. The closed container of ashes should be placed on a noncombustible
floor or on the ground, well away from all combustible materials, outside of the dwelling pending final
disposal. If the ashes are disposed of by burial in soil or otherwise locally dispersed, they should
be retained in the closed container until all cinders have been thoroughly cooled.

Every pellet stove user knows from experience that that instruction was not written for pellet stove ash
but for WOOD stove ash."

That is absolutely correct, there is no technical difference between WOOD stove ash and Pellet stove ash, it is all WOOD ash, and until everything in the container is completely cool (which can take a very long time (* sometimes measured in increments of several days*) as wood ash is a very good insulator) they can kindle a fire.

ETA:

The manuals do not have to say why, they have to provide a warning.  People who do not follow what the manual says just because it doesn't say why, are still playing with fire, and acting against their very own well being.

Oh and you never can count on any electrical/mechanical hybrid device to correctly function 100% of the time.  That is why there are many safety devices in them.  The problems usually come when multiple failures occur and someone gets sloppy.


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## tjnamtiw (Feb 2, 2011)

I can attest to this one, Smokey.  Before I put in my pellet stoves, I had wood inserts in my fireplaces.  On one occasion, I cleaned out the fireplace, which had been out for a complete day plus a few hours.  I dumped the 'cold' ashes over the brick wall between my house and my neighbors (still my land).  A few hours later my neighbor calls and tells me his shed is on fire............  Yep, that stupid lesson cost me!

As far as fighting over the cracked glass, why in the H doesn't the OP just replace the friggin glass?  Shut it down and wait for the glass to get into stock or insist that the store replace yours with one from a display unit or one in stock.  Who can guarantee  that during the night the glass won't crack further or collapse into the burn chamber?  Well, maybe one person here can...............  Why take a chance?  Just shut the darn thing down!


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## arnash (Feb 3, 2011)

I agree that a crack in the front glass should prevent one from having the confidence to use the stove while not present, like at night or away from home, but I think the danger is so minute that using it while you're present doesn't pose a risk to one's home,  Replacing it, as soon as possible, goes without saying.
   But the discussion goes beyond this one particular case,  to clarify the various issues in a general sense.  Such as, saying that all ash is the same completely misses the point of pellet stoves.  They burn with intense combustion due to the "injection" of air, (like an engine from the sixties [wood stove] vs a high efficiency turbo-charged engine of today.  Pellet stoves, using premium pellets, leave less than 1% ash, and due to their greatly superior burning efficiency (compared to wood stoves) they require far, far less wood mass to output an equivalent amount of heating.  So their volume of ash is a tiny percentage of that of a wood stove.  A whole day of pellet burning in my stove yields less than a couple tablespoons of ash!  Wood stove ash is always a fairly large volume and it insulates its still hot embers.  That's impossible with pellet ash.  But on top of its tiny volume of ash, the pellet stove shutdown process includes the blowers running until the whole stove is cooled down, including the ash.  By the time you open the door to clean out the ash, it's so cool that you can hold it in your hands!  (though I haven't tried it yet).  
   When reading safety precautions, I find it appears that there are always some warnings that were written by lawyers, and not safety engineers.  Sometimes common sense is missing when the lawyers throw-in stuff that is above and beyond real-world dangers just so they can say that they have protected their employer's ass every which way from Tuesday.  
    I think that about covers the whole issue,  unless someone has something else to add.


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## tjnamtiw (Feb 3, 2011)

Hell, if I added anything, you'd never shut up!  ''By the time you open the door to clean out the ash, it's so cool that you can hold it in your hands!  (though I haven't tried it yet). ''  How can you so authoritatively state that when you haven't tried it???  Also, let's see you stick your hand down into the burn pot to clean the holes out  when you have the ''blowers running until the whole stove is cooled down''.  In actuality, the convection blower only runs until the snap disc opens even though it is still blowing warm air.  That's why some of us have put adjustable snap discs on that circuit.

Does anyone have something else to add..................


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## Czech (Feb 3, 2011)

Ah hell, I guess I'll stir it up some. Somewhat OT, but from another site along the same lines. If you had a bad limit switch on your furnace, and you knew it was the problem, would you cheat it to keep the pipes from freezing? Would you leave it cheated and go to work for a day? Maybe we should start a poll...


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 4, 2011)

SPRINGFIELD â€“ Ashes from a pellet stove caused a minor fire Sunday morning after a plastic vacuum was used to clean the ashes up.

Firefighters responded to 174 Belvidere St., at 10:23 a.m. Sunday after an old-fashioned vacuum cleaner containing the ashes melted through the floor of an enclosed porch, said fire department spokesman Dennis G. Leger.

Leger said the fire caused $3,000 in damage, but could have been much worse.

â€œThankfully this happened during the day and the people in the house noticed the smoke. If it had happened at night after they were sleeping and no one noticed it, there could have been more damage,â€ he said.

Leger said citizens should remember never to collect pellet ashes in a plastic container.

â€œAlways use a metal shovel and a metal bucket to avoid fires and put the ashes outside,â€ he said. â€œPellet stoves are perfectly safe if you dispose of the ashes properly.â€ 

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2010/03/ashes_from_a_pellet_stove_caus.html

GARDNER â€”  Hot coals from a pellet stove dumped outside caused a two-alarm fire late Friday night that caused extensive damage to a home on Woodland Avenue.

Fire Lt. Gregory Lagoy said the fire caused about $40,000 in damage to a converted barn attached to a home at 182 Woodland Ave. It was caused by coals left outside too close to the building, according to Lt. Lagoy.

Firefighters were called to the house at 11:37 p.m. Owners of the property were at home at the time of the fire and were able to get out of the building safely. The fire was contained to the barn section of the home with the main structure sustaining only minor smoke and water damage. Gardner was assisted by the Westminster and Hubbardston fire departments at the fire scene, and Winchendon manned Gardnerâ€™s Central Station. All off-duty firefighters were called in to assist with the blaze.

Lt. Lagoy said the fire was brought under control by 12:03 a.m. and the last firefighter left the scene at 1:20 a.m. 

http://www.telegram.com/article/20110109/NEWS/101090341/1101/rss01&source=rss

NEWINGTON â€” Ashes sparked a blaze that ripped through a home on Buena Vista Drive on Wednesday morning, firefighters said.

A neighbor alerted authorities after he saw flames creeping up the side of 139 Buena Vista Drive at 11:37 a.m. The fire, which started under a rear deck, spread to the attic and caused extensive damage to the structure, Newington Fire Chief Chris Schroeder said. No one was home at the time.

A resident apparently dumped ashes from a pellet stove near a garbage can behind the single-story ranch. The ashes came into contact with debris under the deck, Schroeder said.

http://articles.courant.com/2010-01-14/news/10011412582925_1_schroeder-attic-pellet-stove

Need more ?


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## tjnamtiw (Feb 4, 2011)

Good ones Smokey!  I guess our newcomer can go crawl back under his bed now.


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## arnash (Feb 4, 2011)

I can think of only one explanation for those "hot ash" fires.   My Whitfield Advantage I leaves almost no ash after burning for over 24 hours, so if other stoves are comparable,  then the only way to get a build-up of lots of hot ash is to have the auger rate set very high, possibly at maximum while the ash from a long burn period has blocked the burn pot holes to the extent that the pellets are blackened and smoldering from lack of sufficient air.  So to fix the problem, the owner turns off the stove, impatiently waits for the earliest moment that he can dump and clean the burn pot, but he dumps hot coals (hidden by ash) before they have cooled down -as in a normal shut-down.   There's no way that a normal shut-down leaves coals that are still hot enough to cause ignition.   I don't say that "authoritatively" since I'm a neophyte, but in everyday experience I'm not standing around waiting to re-light my stove the minute it shuts off, usually it's hours, or overnight. So I haven't yet stuffed my fingers into the burn pot ash immediately after shut-down in order to test my presumption.  I'll venture to say that nobody else has either.

    It's common sense to say that the ash disposal warnings (written for Wood stoves) does not apply to ash disposal from a Pellet stove after normal shut-down because the burn-pot ash is almost non-existent (volume wish) and what's left is totally free of all combustible material.  In other words, there's nothing left that can burn because it's 100% pure ash.  And ash can't burn.  That's the way pellet stoves work, normally.  Of course we're all interested in any cases where the unexpected and unusual happens.  I'm thinking of cases or mechanical/electrical oddity, not so much cases of errors of ignorance -like dumping a pot of still hot coals/ash in a flammable location.


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