# Tesla Model 3 Parked in Our Garage



## jebatty

I'm nearly breathless. About two months ago my wife said she wanted to go fossil carbon free with her car, which would require selling her 2011 Avalon, something I thought she would never do, and then she said that she wanted a Tesla. We looked, found what we wanted, and we delayed delivery for two months to get passed MN winter roads. The delay is over. Picked up the Model 3 today and drove it home. My wife's first new car since her 1977 Toyota Celica. 

First impression -- an amazing car! We got the long range, all-wheel drive model with premium features, including Enhanced Autopilot (EAP) which will be upgraded to full self-driving when available. What's left is learning all the features. Fortunately the basic -- shift into gear and drive -- are easy.

I got my Chevy Bolt in Feb 2018, which has performed flawlessly for nearly 17,000 miles already. Now it has a feisty Tesla Model 3 to make a pair of BEVs for our household. Every kWh of our solar system will be put to use for our home and fueling two cars.


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## begreen

Grumble. Now I'm jealous. Sounds like an intriguing pair of ponies in the stable. Was this a lease?


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## jebatty

A purchase, not a lease.

Second impression -- "feel" is very firm, solid, attached to the road, predictable, power, control, safe. The absolute, instantaneous acceleration, without a quiver of hesitation or noise, is awesome; responsive beyond any vehicle I ever have ever driven, and that's without any attempt to do anything more than normal driving. I wasn't sure that I would be comfortable with the large touch screen off to the right of the steering wheel, but I found it to be non-distracting -- except for what will be the learning curve to get familiar with the various displays, settings and options -- those we will learn mostly from practice while the car is parked. I barely touched the screen on the first drive.

We already are planning a Tesla trip to Colorado, just over 1000 miles from our home. Likely will use the 1000 miles of free SuperCharging that came from a referral code my son sent us.

None of this is in anyway a criticism of the Bolt, just a league or two beyond.


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## Ashful

I’ve driven a 2018 dual motor AWD model 3, and I have to admit, the 0 - 30 mph acceleration is just astounding.  I was seriously impressed.  Driving feel is beautiful, with all of that battery weight down low in the floor. The only thing I didn’t love was the seat/pedal relationship, but I’m sure I could adjust to that.

What’s noticeable is the pedal timing, which is just impossible to describe until you experience it yourself.  Even the most powerful fuel injected ICE’s have a tens to hundreds millisecond delay between pedal and acceleration, but with the Tesla it is absolutely instantaneous.  Almost unnerving, at first.  

My cousin and I traded cars once last fall.  His 2018 Tesla 3 for my 2016 SRT 392.  I thought his car was a blast to drive, and he called mine “simply terrifying.”  [emoji3]  Very different personalities, his being the more controllable, but also having better 0 - 30 times.  Mine had better 0 - 100 times and highway passing, but of course most of our driving is country roads under 60 mph, where they’re pretty well matched.


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## begreen

jebatty said:


> We already are planning a Tesla trip to Colorado, just over 1000 miles from our home. Likely will use the 1000 miles of free SuperCharging that came from a referral code my son sent us.
> 
> None of this is in anyway a criticism of the Bolt, just a league or two beyond.


How will you be charging the 3 at home?


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## jebatty

We have three home charging options. My heated shop has room to garage one car and has a Bosch Power Max wall charger, 240V-40A on a 60A circuit with a J1772 connector. I also have a NEMA 14-50 outlet on a separate 240V-40A circuit. Both can be used at the same time. In our house unheated garage I have a 240V-16A charger on a 20A circuit with a J1772 connector. I have the adapter for the Tesla to use the J1772 connector, and I also have the adapter to use the 14-50 outlet. I need a new breaker sized at 50A for this outlet. The Tesla charge needs the charge setting to be used as appropriate.

It is likely that the Tesla, at least to start with, will be kept in the house garage, and the Bolt will be kept in the shop, as it is now.


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## maple1

This is one thread that definitely needs pictures.


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## Ashful




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## Ashful

... of course, there are going to be a few more incidents like this, as this tech goes more mainstream:

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/sep/20/tesla-model-s-chinese-hack-remote-control-brakes

Not a huge area of concern, in this particular case, it required the car to be connected to their WiFi hotspot.  But if public WiFi continues to grow...


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## maple1

I was kinda talking real pics of the Battymobile.


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## begreen

Ashful said:


> ... of course, there are going to be a few more incidents like this, as this tech goes more mainstream:
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/sep/20/tesla-model-s-chinese-hack-remote-control-brakes
> 
> Not a huge area of concern, in this particular case, it required the car to be connected to their WiFi hotspot.  But if public WiFi continues to grow...


That was demonstrated in the US around 2014? and it is not limited to the Tesla. It actually is a serious concern. Some home wifi devices like thermostats, alarm systems, lighting also have this vulnerability. 
https://www.wired.com/story/car-hack-shut-down-safety-features/


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## Ashful

begreen said:


> That was demonstrated in the US around 2014? and it is not limited to the Tesla. It actually is a serious concern. Some home wifi devices like thermostats, alarm systems, lighting also have this vulnerability.
> https://www.wired.com/story/car-hack-shut-down-safety-features/



I think that particular case was in 2016, but there have been others.  Vehicles create a higher level of concern for me, than thermostats and lighting.  Although I do remember one case of a house fire being started by hacker, I don’t remember the details now.  Tesla’s response was great on this, I worry more about how GM, Dodge and Ford might handle similar situations, down the road.


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## SpaceBus

Congratulations, I'm sure it's been a real treat! Some day we would like to have an EV we could charge from solar panels.


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## semipro

I know first-hand that the Tesla's launch so hard and fast that you have to warn passengers to put their heads against the headrests.
Its really interesting too that you access almost everything through the display, evening opening hoods/trunks, charge ports (at least on the Model S).

I've been in a Model X though where rain leaked in to the interior when the gull wing doors where opened.  I guess that's a tough engineering challenge - force fields and such.


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## woodgeek

But, but....can it make it to the Twin Cities when its -10°F out???  

I'm just wondering what your _next_ EV will be.....I'm on my third.  

Drive it in good health.


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## jebatty

My wife (the Tesla is her car) has been experiencing the Tesla, now named Rosebud, and I have not had much of a chance to do the same. Will post some pics soon.


woodgeek said:


> But, but....can it make it to the Twin Cities when its -10°F out???


I doubt -10F will be a problem, a little concerned about temps of -30F to -40F like we had this winter. That said, there are two SuperChargers on the route. The biggest concern is driving in that super cold weather and experiencing some other problem on the road, like an icy crash or getting stuck, and surviving in the cold.


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## begreen

How is the 3's cabin heated? Resistance, heat pump, both?


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## semipro

begreen said:


> How is the 3's cabin heated? Resistance, heat pump, both?


I used to think that pre-heated latent heat of fusion salts would be good for cabin heating but someone (here I think) pointed out to me that the energy storage density of the motive battery was probably higher so why go to the trouble.


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## Ashful

jebatty said:


> That said, there are two SuperChargers on the route.


SuperCharger?  

http://www.stage3motorsports.com/as...le_w140ax_intercooled_supercharger_kit-4a.jpg

SuperCharger?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe..._e.jpg/1200px-1968_AMX_blown_and_tubbed_e.jpg

Why do they use the name of an existing “thing” for a new technology?  Maybe I should invent a new type dishwasher, and call it “Kleenex”?  SuperChargers have been around since the 1930’s, but they have nothing to do with Tesla.


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## semipro

Ashful said:


> SuperCharger?
> 
> http://www.stage3motorsports.com/as...le_w140ax_intercooled_supercharger_kit-4a.jpg
> 
> SuperCharger?
> 
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe..._e.jpg/1200px-1968_AMX_blown_and_tubbed_e.jpg
> 
> Why do they use the name of an existing “thing” for a new technology?  Maybe I should invent a new type dishwasher, and call it “Kleenex”?  SuperChargers have been around since the 1930’s, but they have nothing to do with Tesla.


Tesla Autopilot?


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## jebatty

begreen said:


> How is the 3's cabin heated? Resistance, heat pump, both?



Tesla is resistance heat. More than one reason for sure, but an important reason might be the inefficiency to failure of a heat pump to provide sufficient heat at low ambient temperatures, like 0F to -40F where I live. Might be able to scavenge heat from the battery/motor if this heat isn't already being used by the battery/motor system.


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## woodgeek

jebatty said:


> Tesla is resistance heat. More than one reason for sure, but an important reason might be the inefficiency to failure of a heat pump to provide sufficient heat at low ambient temperatures, like 0F to -40F where I live. Might be able to scavenge heat from the battery/motor if this heat isn't already being used by the battery/motor system.



I am pretty certain that the ohmic losses in the motor and battery are recovered and used to heat the cabin (or the battery) BEFORE they are dumped to a radiator.


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## begreen

jebatty said:


> Tesla is resistance heat. More than one reason for sure, but an important reason might be the inefficiency to failure of a heat pump to provide sufficient heat at low ambient temperatures, like 0F to -40F where I live. Might be able to scavenge heat from the battery/motor if this heat isn't already being used by the battery/motor system.



I'm not sure how effective resistance heat will be at those damning temps. That's when you want a woodstove in the car.  I'd rather have an efficient heat pump for most heating with a simple resistance heat backup. That would be ideal for our climate.


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## Dobish

where in colorado you coming to? we have a lot of charging stations


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## jebatty

Colorado Springs is the destination. Do you have any favorites? 

Tesla Navigate plots out the routes and identifies the available SuperChargers. PlugShare ID's lots of available chargers.


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## jebatty

The Tesla AutoPilot amazes me. The narrow two lane highway that I travel the most is recognized as one of the curviest highways in MN, with many curve speed signs at 30 mph and even 15 mph. Most other stretches are driven well at 40-45 mph maximm. I set the Tesla speed at 45 mph maximum, and it navigated this highway perfectly on AutoPilot, handled the curves well, and slowing as necessary and then resuming speed.


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## wilsoncm1

Tesla makes a neat product, but will they be around in 10 years to support it?  Also, they just don't fit my lifestyle.  It won't make it up my driveway anytime nor will it take me to work with 12" of snow.  I'll be waiting for the Jeep plugin when it's released next year or the year after.  

Building my solar system this Spring.  Can't wait!


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## Ashful

wilsoncm1 said:


> Tesla makes a neat product, but will they be around in 10 years to support it?  Also, they just don't fit my lifestyle.  It won't make it up my driveway anytime nor will it take me to work with 12" of snow.  I'll be waiting for the Jeep plugin when it's released next year or the year after.



Why wouldn’t they make it up your driveway?  Their AWD snow performance is far better than any 4x4 pickup I have owned.

No doubt, Tesla is here to stay, they have set the standard for EVs.  

Jeep???  Really?!?  Good luck with that!  [emoji38]


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## wilsoncm1

Ashful said:


> Why wouldn’t they make it up your driveway?  Their AWD snow performance is far better than any 4x4 pickup I have owned.
> 
> No doubt, Tesla is here to stay, they have set the standard for EVs.
> 
> Jeep???  Really?!?  Good luck with that!  [emoji38]


Because I already need a Jeep to make it up the last 1/4 mile. Some of us don't live in the city or on a paved road.  2 miles from the paved road and 1000' elevation change just to get to my drive.

According to reports, Tesla is in trouble.  We'll see what happens.

Jeep will let others develop the tech and apply it to their suvs.  Thanks Tesla!


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## lsucet

wilsoncm1 said:


> Because I already need a Jeep to make it up the last 1/4 mile. Some of us don't live in the city or on a paved road.  2 miles from the paved road and 1000' elevation change just to get to my drive.
> 
> According to reports, Tesla is in trouble.  We'll see what happens.
> 
> Jeep will let others develop the tech and apply it to their suvs.  Thanks Tesla!


Tesla is in trouble no more or less than any other manufacturer regardless which technology is in use. Sometimes is more internet Bla Bla bla than anything else. Many manufacturers are in trouble
with emissions, safety recalls etc. At the end of the day they find their way around. They are way far away from Tesla on EV vehicles and technologies. There is a market for everything, and those with Teslas, not many want to go back. Of course it has some limitations if that is not what makes the job for you but like any other products they always getting better and better.


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## SpaceBus

wilsoncm1 said:


> Because I already need a Jeep to make it up the last 1/4 mile. Some of us don't live in the city or on a paved road.  2 miles from the paved road and 1000' elevation change just to get to my drive.
> 
> According to reports, Tesla is in trouble.  We'll see what happens.
> 
> Jeep will let others develop the tech and apply it to their suvs.  Thanks Tesla!



I would love to see a plug in diesel hybrid four door/extended cab wrangler pickup truck, but I don't see that happening.


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## wilsoncm1

SpaceBus said:


> I would love to see a plug in diesel hybrid four door/extended cab wrangler pickup truck, but I don't see that happening.



Minus the diesel, I think we're going to get there in a year or so.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a26882354/2020-jeep-wrangler-hybrid-future-spied/

A 30-40 mi range on electrons would fit my commute perfectly.  The dino juice engine would allow real cross country travel if needed.  If it's halfway affordable, I'm in.


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## begreen

I suspected they would borrow parts of the Pacifica Hybrid drive train. The Pacifica H is 2wd, so it will be interesting to see if they are working on a 4WD or AWD version.


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## wilsoncm1

begreen said:


> I suspected they would borrow parts of the Pacifica Hybrid drive train. The Pacifica H is 2wd, so it will be interesting to see if they are working on a 4WD or AWD version.



In the Wrangler, it'll have to be 4WD.  The smaller/not real Jeeps will probably be ICE front wheel and electric rear wheel.  At least that's the scuttlebutt.


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## jebatty

Just crossed the 2000 mile mark on the Tesla Model 3 and five weeks of driving. I've never owned a genuine sports car, yet I have a feeling that the handling of the 3 must be close: firm, exact, and fully controlled, with exhilarating acceleration that is difficult to understand for a person used to the sluggish ICE performance. Had a little fun last weekend when a caravan of four Porche car plus two American muscle cars slowly passed me on the interstate. I gradually regained my position, they in the left lane and me in the right lane, one of the muscle car drivers rev'd the engine in an expression of power, I pressed the accelerator pedal, didn't even floor it, and the Tesla "exploded" forward. Enough said.

Back to the Tesla itself. Have not noticed any cosmetic defects. Have had 0 mechanical issues. All systems appear to be operating as intended. Still getting used to the positions of the various controls, not difficult, just different. Have received one OTA software update related to the Summons and Navigate features, plus a 5% increase in power. Have not yet tried the Navigate on Autopilot, but I do use Autopilot frequently, including lane change and adaptive cruise. 

The Tesla is my wife's car, and she drives it mostly on local roads to and from nearby towns. My driving has been mostly highway/freeway driving, including a couple of trips to Minneapolis/St. Paul. We charge typically to 150 mile range for the daily use to meet my wife's needs, and to 270+/- miles (about a 90% charge) for trip driving. Did charge once fully, and the Tesla reported 306 miles of range. The full charge does not allow immediate regenerative operation, as the battery has no additional capacity, so a full charge is somewhat wasteful. 

All home charging, except once, has been on a 240V-16A circuit in our garage. When my wife gets home, she drives in the garage and plugs in the Tesla on the J1772 adapter plug that comes with the car. That allows 12-14 miles per hour of charge. We did charge once on the 240V-30A circuit in my shop, using the NEMA 14-50 outlet and the 14-50 adapter that also comes with the car, as well as the J1772 plug. 

We also have used SuperChargers several times on our trips to/from visit our children in the Minneapolis/St. Paul area. Fortunately, there currently are three available on this route, one 40 miles from where we live, another 115 miles, and the third in a St. Paul suburb at 180 miles. Using the SuperCharger could not be easier: grab the charge plug cord, press the button on the plug, the Tesla charge port opens, plug it in, and let her rip. Initial charging I noticed at over 100 kW rate, vs 7,200W on the 30A circuit in my shop. On our Bolt I've seen DC Fast Charge at about 18,000W. 

A few creature comforts. Front driver seat, steering wheel, and side mirrors all programmable for separate drivers. Side mirrors automatically fold in when approaching the garage, and fold out upon leaving the garage. Also fold in when parked. Display screen on the dash is very easy to use, once a person gets used to it. Touchscreen is accurate and fast. Navigation display and voice info is crystal clear. Excellent sound system, voice commands, and navigation.

I have not thought of any "wished the Tesla had ..." features. We did splurge in getting the top-end Model 3, but this is my wife's first new car ever. She deserved getting exactly what she wanted. And neither she nor I have not been left wanting. At this point the Tesla rates 10 out of 10, or even 11 out of 10.


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## semipro

jebatty said:


> I have not thought of any "wished the Tesla had ..." features.


Vehicle to grid capability for emergency power or peak metering pricing maybe?
I realize you have solar PV but maybe still somehow useful?


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## woodgeek

Awesome Jim. 

FWIW, I was routinely hitting 44kW DCFC on my Bolt (about 150 mph charging speed).  

You just need better DCFCs.


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## jebatty

The DCFC I used is Greenlots and is the most convenient for me on travels to/from Minneapolis/St.Paul, mostly because a ChargePoint site is a little further down the road, just in case the Greenlots is out of service. There are numerous other DCFC in the Mpls/St. Paul area.

Just used the Tesla trip planner for our trip to Colorado Springs next week. The longest leg between SCs is 160 miles. Total miles = 1179. Conservative and leaves lots of room for reduced range due to speed, wind, temperature, and other adverse driving conditions.


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## SpaceBus

jebatty said:


> The DCFC I used is Greenlots and is the most convenient for me on travels to/from Minneapolis/St.Paul, mostly because a ChargePoint site is a little further down the road, just in case the Greenlots is out of service. There are numerous other DCFC in the Mpls/St. Paul area.
> 
> Just used the Tesla trip planner for our trip to Colorado Springs next week. The longest leg between SCs is 160 miles. Total miles = 1179. Conservative and leaves lots of room for reduced range due to speed, wind, temperature, and other adverse driving conditions.


Perhaps soon range anxiety will be a thing of the past.


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## wilsoncm1

jebatty said:


> The DCFC I used is Greenlots and is the most convenient for me on travels to/from Minneapolis/St.Paul, mostly because a ChargePoint site is a little further down the road, just in case the Greenlots is out of service. There are numerous other DCFC in the Mpls/St. Paul area.
> 
> Just used the Tesla trip planner for our trip to Colorado Springs next week. The longest leg between SCs is 160 miles. Total miles = 1179. Conservative and leaves lots of room for reduced range due to speed, wind, temperature, and other adverse driving conditions.



Assuming that you have the full 300mi charge, that's 4 stops for charging.  How long will this trip take you with charging stops?


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## jebatty

Tesla trip planner recommends total charging time of 310 minutes at the eight stops between our home and Colorado Springs. First day planned miles is 546, second day 350, and 3rd day arrival at destination 283, for total one-way miles of 1179, nearly all on Interstate highways. Two motel nights. With this driving plan there will be no range anxiety at all.

This daily mileage is in the same range as most of our past driving trips with our ICE car. We enjoy casual lunch stops and a leisurely evening meal and relaxing time at the end of the day. When I was much younger, like 35 years ago, and with three children we made non-stop driving trips up to about 1500 miles, like 26 hours from our home in MN to visit my brother in Boston. A 12-pack of Coke and bags of Cheetos would keep me awake. Probably was foolish to have done that at the time, and certainly not want I want to do anymore at my much riper age.


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## begreen

I'm impressed that this can be done in CO away from the Boulder/Denver corridor. This is a big change in the past 5 yrs. Where will the car be charged each day and night?  At a Tesla super-station, DC charger on the interstate, motel 120v?


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## jebatty

All Tesla SC: Clearwater and Albert Lea, MN; West Des Moines and Council Bluffs, IA; Grand Island, Gothenberg, and Ogallala, NE; Brush and Colorado Springs, CO.


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## jebatty

Returned home this afternoon after completing a round-trip to/from Colorado Springs; total of 2,348 miles in the Tesla Model 3. All charging on the route was at SuperChargers, shortest distance between charging was 88 miles, longest was 176 miles. No charging site was full, most Teslas at any site was 3 including us. Sites had 6-8 charging stations. Only one station was out of service.

There is an advantage to keeping charging episodes to about 150 miles. That advantage is faster charging at higher battery capacity. At high available capacity charge rates would be 100 to about 130 kW, slowing to about 30 kW as the battery moved to full charge. A charge stop often was no more than the time to stop, plug in, visit a restroom, maybe pickup a snack, stretch the legs, unplug and take off.

I would typically charge to stated range about 50% higher than actual distance to account for low temperatures, strong headwinds, need for cabin heat or air conditioning, and steady travel speeds up to 75 mph. So, if distance to the next charging station was 160 miles, I would charge to stated range of about 240 miles. This practice was dramatized on our travel to the second charge site on our trip, a distance of 149 miles. I charged to a range of 200 miles. Outside temperature was in the high 30's - low 40's, very strong headwinds, and heavy rain. And then an unexpected detour which required 14 miles of additional travel. Made it to the charge station with 18 miles of range left. Quickly learned that it is not wise to plan to tightly on charge capacity.

Tesla performance -- outstanding! Absolutely no issues of substance with the car at all. Navigation was right on, save for two charge stations that weren't quite where navigation stated. A quick re-navigate solved the problem. Visibility between the rear view mirror, side mirrors, and LED screen showing position of nearby vehicles was excellent. Freeway merges were a snap, due first to the excellent visibility and then also due to the powerful acceleration to merge into an open space. Passing other vehicles was just as easy for the same reasons. Cruise holds speed exactly, adaptive cruise maintained set distance to the car ahead and slowed or accelerated as needed without any intervention at all.

Enhanced AutoPilot made freeway travel, even travel on two lane roads, very relaxing. Set cruise speed, engage EAP, and the result is easy, non-tiring travel. Lane changes were right on. Most of our trip involved very strong cross and head winds, which sometimes buffeted semi-trucks half way into the adjacent lane. Without EAP, keeping the Tesla in the lane would have been a constant, fatiguing and sometimes anxious effort. EAP maintained the Tesla closer to the center of the lane than I could have done manually.

As best as I could tell, EAP disengages were the fault of heavy rain limiting visibility, or the absence of a clear lane marker or edge of pavement stripe, or error on my part in failing to keep my hands on the steering wheel, or me inadvertently taking control of the steering wheel when EAP was doing just fine. It took a few episodes of disengaging to get the knack of quickly taking over manual handling on disengagement. But never a safety issue, just a slight jerk or two in making the transition. And after a bit of experience, no more than a barely noticeable change in movement of the car.

Cabin comfort is excellent, the sound system is great, and the Tesla is quiet with very little wind noise. Ride is firm, good feel of the road through the suspension and steering wheel, superb handling, and all in all six very enjoyable days of travel, averaging just under 400 miles/day.

After this trip we now have over 4,000 miles on the Tesla in less than two months. Not 1 drop of gasoline, not one pound of CO2, and with the massive wind turbine farms in NW Iowa and central Colorado east of Denver/Colorado Springs, probably very little if any coal fired electricity.


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## Ashful

jebatty said:


> Returned home this afternoon after completing a round-trip to/from Colorado Springs; total of 2,348 miles in the Tesla Model 3. All charging on the route was at SuperChargers, shortest distance between charging was 88 miles, longest was 176 miles. No charging site was full, most Teslas at any site was 3 including us. Sites had 6-8 charging stations. Only one station was out of service.
> 
> There is an advantage to keeping charging episodes to about 150 miles. That advantage is faster charging at higher battery capacity. At high available capacity charge rates would be 100 to about 130 kW, slowing to about 30 kW as the battery moved to full charge. A charge stop often was no more than the time to stop, plug in, visit a restroom, maybe pickup a snack, stretch the legs, unplug and take off.
> 
> I would typically charge to stated range about 50% higher than actual distance to account for low temperatures, strong headwinds, need for cabin heat or air conditioning, and steady travel speeds up to 75 mph. So, if distance to the next charging station was 160 miles, I would charge to stated range of about 240 miles. This practice was dramatized on our travel to the second charge site on our trip, a distance of 149 miles. I charged to a range of 200 miles. Outside temperature was in the high 30's - low 40's, very strong headwinds, and heavy rain. And then an unexpected detour which required 14 miles of additional travel. Made it to the charge station with 18 miles of range left. Quickly learned that it is not wise to plan to tightly on charge capacity.
> 
> Tesla performance -- outstanding! Absolutely no issues of substance with the car at all. Navigation was right on, save for two charge stations that weren't quite where navigation stated. A quick re-navigate solved the problem. Visibility between the rear view mirror, side mirrors, and LED screen showing position of nearby vehicles was excellent. Freeway merges were a snap, due first to the excellent visibility and then also due to the powerful acceleration to merge into an open space. Passing other vehicles was just as easy for the same reasons. Cruise holds speed exactly, adaptive cruise maintained set distance to the car ahead and slowed or accelerated as needed without any intervention at all.
> 
> Enhanced AutoPilot made freeway travel, even travel on two lane roads, very relaxing. Set cruise speed, engage EAP, and the result is easy, non-tiring travel. Lane changes were right on. Most of our trip involved very strong cross and head winds, which sometimes buffeted semi-trucks half way into the adjacent lane. Without EAP, keeping the Tesla in the lane would have been a constant, fatiguing and sometimes anxious effort. EAP maintained the Tesla closer to the center of the lane than I could have done manually.
> 
> As best as I could tell, EAP disengages were the fault of heavy rain limiting visibility, or the absence of a clear lane marker or edge of pavement stripe, or error on my part in failing to keep my hands on the steering wheel, or me inadvertently taking control of the steering wheel when EAP was doing just fine. It took a few episodes of disengaging to get the knack of quickly taking over manual handling on disengagement. But never a safety issue, just a slight jerk or two in making the transition. And after a bit of experience, no more than a barely noticeable change in movement of the car.
> 
> Cabin comfort is excellent, the sound system is great, and the Tesla is quiet with very little wind noise. Ride is firm, good feel of the road through the suspension and steering wheel, superb handling, and all in all six very enjoyable days of travel, averaging just under 400 miles/day.
> 
> After this trip we now have over 4,000 miles on the Tesla in less than two months. Not 1 drop of gasoline, not one pound of CO2, and with the massive wind turbine farms in NW Iowa and central Colorado east of Denver/Colorado Springs, probably very little if any coal fired electricity.



I’m really enjoying this thread, jebatty.  Keep on keeping on!  Here’s to hoping Tesla considers doing a sports wagon in the near future.


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## SpaceBus

Are power slides and donuts still the same? Call me whatever you want, but sometimes I still like to do teenager stuff with my vehicles. Always in a safe place of course.


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## begreen

Sounds like a great trip in a great car. It's interesting that you felt the EAP did a great job at dealing with the strong crosswinds. I hadn't thought of that benefit.

FWIW, Colorado is decreasing dependence on coal, but mostly by moving to natural gas. Overall, it is a fossil fuel powered state. Kansas OTOH has really been adding wind power. 




https://www.eia.gov/state/?sid=CO#tabs-3


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## jebatty

SpaceBus said:


> Are power slides and donuts still the same?



Can't answer this, not my driving style. Can say that the first time I hit the accelerator hard, I was pushed back against the seat as though I was a passenger in a jet on takeoff. Have never before had that feeling in a car, not even from my long gone 1972 Chevelle SS with a 454 hp engine.


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## Ashful

jebatty said:


> Can't answer this, not my driving style. Can say that the first time I hit the accelerator hard, I was pushed back against the seat as though I was a passenger in a jet on takeoff. Have never before had that feeling in a car, not even from my long gone 1972 Chevelle SS with a 454 hp engine.



I can speak to this, not the donuts, but the acceleration.  A 1972 454 SS was rated at only 270 hp, and had an 8 second 0-60 time, almost long enough to take a nap while you waited for it to reach speed.  It made a lot of exciting noise in the process, and is one heck of a beautiful car, but it’s not a very good comparison to anything made today.

The two Tesla cars I have driven were both insanely quick off the line, 0 - 30 mph.  Almost violently quick, with pedal response time that could not replicated by any ICE.  However, the 30 - 60 mph acceleration was no faster than the big overweight sedan I drive to work everyday, and 60+ mph highway passing performance of both Tesla’s was unimpressive.  Any decent ICE high performance sedan will take them at 0 - 100 mph, and will completely smoke them in highway passing.  This becomes more relevant, as they’re raising a lot of our local freeway speeds from 55 mph to 65 and even 75 mph.

These were not base model 3’s, but one was a model 3 with dual motor and AWD options.  The other was a P90D.  Both great cars, until you consider the price tag.  The Model 3 I drove was $65k, and it was as nice as any other $50k car I have driven, there is a high price on that industry-leading R&D.

This doesn’t make them less desirable, just pointing out the pros and cons, as honestly as I can.  For those who want the latest tech, they present an attractive package.


----------



## SpaceBus

Ashful said:


> I can speak to this, not the donuts, but the acceleration.  A 1972 454 SS was rated at only 270 hp, and had an 8 second 0-60 time, almost long enough to take a nap while you waited for it to reach speed.  It made a lot of exciting noise in the process, and is one heck of a beautiful car, but it’s not a very good comparison to anything made today.
> 
> The two Tesla cars I have driven were both insanely quick off the line, 0 - 30 mph.  Almost violently quick, with pedal response time that could not replicated by any ICE.  However, the 30 - 60 mph acceleration was no faster than the big overweight sedan I drive to work everyday, and 60+ mph highway passing performance of both Tesla’s was unimpressive.  Any decent ICE high performance sedan will take them at 0 - 100 mph, and will completely smoke them in highway passing.  This becomes more relevant, as they’re raising a lot of our local freeway speeds from 55 mph to 65 and even 75 mph.
> 
> These were not base model 3’s, but one was a model 3 with dual motor and AWD options.  The other was a P90D.  Both great cars, until you consider the price tag.  The Model 3 I drove was $65k, and it was as nice as any other $50k car I have driven, there is a high price on that industry-leading R&D.
> 
> This doesn’t make them less desirable, just pointing out the pros and cons, as honestly as I can.  For those who want the latest tech, they present an attractive package.



Yeah, that 454 stock might have done a 14 second 1/4, but it didn't take much to go faster. Mfgs were hamstrung in making fast cars and often included headers, intake manis, and carbs in the trunk to wake them up. Honestly tough, I'm not risk adverse enough to own a fast car anymore. I just want to be able to slide and have fun. You don't need a million HP to do that. 
Back to topic, has anyone that goes to performance driving events taken a Tesla (acceleration times are just one part of the picture)? How are they at the limits, steering tip in, brake modulation, abs lockup, etc? The biggest fear for me as far as EVs is the visceral feedback given by the car. Even my 8,000 lb Dually truck talks to me.


----------



## Ashful

SpaceBus said:


> Back to topic, has anyone that goes to performance driving events taken a Tesla (acceleration times are just one part of the picture)? How are they at the limits, steering tip in, brake modulation, abs lockup, etc? The biggest fear for me as far as EVs is the visceral feedback given by the car. Even my 8,000 lb Dually truck talks to me.


Yes, there are miles of video of Tesla’s racing Hellcats and other muscle at 1/4 mile tracks on YouTube.  The Tesla’s pretty much always win off the line, but usually lose at the finish.  Vastly different acceleration curves.

Tesla owns the 1/8 mile track, though.  I suspect no production ICE car can take them, there.  There is just not enough time on that short track for an ICE to make up for the EV’s blindingly fast 0 - 30 times.


----------



## begreen

YouTube has several track comparisons with the Tesla to other vehicles on the track. It performs well, though automatic systems can affect things like controlled drift, etc. Still, it's so fast off the line that the general impression is a lot of fun and that fun is a lot cleaner.

Beat the Audi RS7 and tied the Porche 911 Turbo S at the 1/4 mile mark


----------



## Ashful

Not a surprise, begreen.  But what’s the MSRP on a typically-configured P100D with Ludicrous package?  I suspect that, dollar for dollar, you’d do better comparing to the R8.

I know someone lucky enough to have a P100D as his daily commuter, his sports car is an i8.  He went all electric years ago, but has the budget to suffer depreciation on multiple six-figure EV’s.


----------



## SpaceBus

That "test" from top gear favored the Tesla overwhelmingly because they crafted the test to do so. The BMW would have trounced it on the track if it weren't a standing start, he also did a manual launch which was sub optimal. 

In short, Tesla doesn't make a driver's car, but they do make fast cars. I do still want an electric vehicle some day, perhaps they will overcome the current sterile nature.


----------



## jebatty

I'm not into fast cars. However, the Tesla Model 3 AWD is more responsive at every day performance than any ICE car I ever had. And I can't quite agree that the response is slow in the 60+ mph range. Certainly better than I've experienced previously. At least, plenty for me without leaving a desire for more. Heck, the Tesla is our family car, not the car for the track or strip.


----------



## begreen

What was the charging cost for your trip jebatty?


----------



## Ashful

jebatty said:


> I'm not into fast cars. However, the Tesla Model 3 AWD is more responsive at every day performance than any ICE car I ever had. And I can't quite agree that the response is slow in the 60+ mph range. Certainly better than I've experienced previously. At least, plenty for me without leaving a desire for more. Heck, the Tesla is our family car, not the car for the track or strip.



I don’t think I said it was slow at 60+, it just doesn’t have the same acceleration as many similarly-prices ICE’s at highway speeds.  It’s still a rocket off the line, buddy.  [emoji3]

Of course it’s a family car, but it’s still fun to debate, and even more fun to put your foot into it sometimes.


----------



## jebatty

Ashful said:


> ... and even more fun to put your foot into it sometimes.



My wife wanted me to drive the entire Colorado Springs trip. I did not object, graciously and humbly agreeing. Best time ever in a car on a diving trip.


----------



## SpaceBus

jebatty said:


> My wife wanted me to drive the entire Colorado Springs trip. I did not object, graciously and humbly agreeing. Best time ever in a car on a diving trip.



Is having a near silent car as amazing as it sounds (no pun intended)?


----------



## Ashful

SpaceBus said:


> Is having a near silent car as amazing as it sounds (no pun intended)?



... of course we are likely to see more of these, with all the silent EVs zooming around...


----------



## begreen

SpaceBus said:


> Is having a near silent car as amazing as it sounds (no pun intended)?


It's a delightful experience that doesn't get old.


----------



## SpaceBus

begreen said:


> It's a delightful experience that doesn't get old.


I think in a few years, especially with the way battery and electric vehicle technology is improving, we will have a garage and an electric vehicle.


----------



## begreen

To be honest, the only thing I miss from an ICE vehicle is the ability to blast out heat in icy winter temps. Fortunately we can preheat the car while still plugged in, but that is not always an option away from home.


----------



## SpaceBus

begreen said:


> To be honest, the only thing I miss from an ICE vehicle is the ability to blast out heat in icy winter temps. Fortunately we can preheat the car while still plugged in, but that is not always an option away from home.



I think we will always have our ice vehicles as well. My truck is very useful beyond transportation. I'm really hoping for an electric Jeep Wrangler or small pickup truck in the future. I want something for rough roads, good for camping, cargo capacity, and room for dogs. My Dually is handy for my dogs and picking up heavy stuff, but not fun for around town. We won't be able to have a third vehicle until we build a garage, so it's like a five year plan. I'm interested in seeing how the market changes. Hopefully more charging stations will be common. This vehicle would be primarily used locally, so long distance range isn't even that critical.


----------



## begreen

That would be a good time to pick up one coming off a lease plan.


----------



## jebatty

I signed up to participate in an EV pilot charging study by our utility. Requires a dedicated meter for charging and use of off-peak charging times, typically between 10 pm and 6 am, but daytime charging is allowed "as needed." Will get a $10/mo credit during the study period and a discounted rate, TBD, following the end of the pilot. The credit is nominal, translating to about 85 kWh/mo at the general service rate. The future discounted rate is the benefit, if it materializes. Current off-peak rates for heating and domestic hot water are about 60% of the general service rate. 

The utility says that the purpose of the study is to determine

How and when members choose to charge their vehicles.
Are dedicated Off-peak charge times acceptable?
How much does charging affect home wiring?
EVs impact on the electrical distribution system


----------



## Seasoned Oak

Saw lots of Teslas on a recent trip to Maine thru parts of Mass,. NH, and Conn. Almost as many Volts ,but not a single Nissan Leaf nor a GM Bolt.


----------



## Ashful

Got stuck behind a Leaf on my way to work on Thursday, the first I'd ever seen one.  It is not an attractive car, at least from that angle.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

Ashful said:


> Got stuck behind a Leaf on my way to work on Thursday, the first I'd ever seen one.  It is not an attractive car, at least from that angle.


Never was ,from any angle. Now the Tesla Roadster,thats an attractive car.


----------



## aaronk25

Ashful said:


> Got stuck behind a Leaf on my way to work on Thursday, the first I'd ever seen one.  It is not an attractive car, at least from that angle.



I think after a test drive in a leaf a person would be very motivated to go buy a yearly bus pass.  [emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## SpaceBus

aaronk25 said:


> I think after a test drive in a leaf a person would be very motivated to go buy a yearly bus pass.  [emoji23]
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro



You must not have spent much time on a city bus


----------



## begreen

Seasoned Oak said:


> Never was ,from any angle. Now the Tesla Roadster,thats an attractive car.


The first gen Leaf is common out here. I usually see a few a day at least. The second gen Leaf is a better, more conventional-looking car, It's not a beauty queen, but at least it doesn't look like the offspring of a frog.


----------



## jebatty

Went out to eat last night with our neighbors to a restaurant 14 miles away down the two lane highway. We offered the Tesla Model 3 to both the husband and the wife to drive, the wife balked but the husband jumped at the chance. A simple comment from the husband tells the story: "I really like this car."


----------



## Seasoned Oak

jebatty said:


> Went out to eat last night with our neighbors to a restaurant 14 miles away down the two lane highway. We offered the Tesla Model 3 to both the husband and the wife to drive, the wife balked but the husband jumped at the chance. A simple comment from the husband tells the story: "I really like this car."


I wouldnt mind driving one myself ,you got me curious now ,could be on my bucket list in the future. And my garage does have a 220 line.


----------



## jebatty

We also had a 220V (actually 240V) 20A receptacle outlet in the garage. And the garage has been and likely will remain the primary parked location for the Tesla. I bought a plug-in level 2 charger for that line, J1772 plug to the car, charges at 16A, which so far has been entirely adequate for the Tesla with charging during the night. The Tesla has an adapter to allow use of the J1772 plug. If we ever need a faster charge we can move the Tesla to my shop with a Bosch level 2 charger, 240V at 32A, J1772 vehicle plug. In addition to the Bosch, I also installed NEMA 14-50 outlet in the shop on a separate 50A circuit. The Tesla also has an adapter which allows use of a 14-50 outlet. So I can charge simultaneously two BEVs in the shop.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

Where is Teslas electric SUV or truck , GMS electric SUV or truck? With 75 %  of all sales going to SUVs and Trucks now and projected to be 84% of GM sales by 2022,and 90% of Fords sales and for Fiat, a whopping 97% of sales by 2022 how can these companies continue to all but ignore this market today.


----------



## gregbesia

Seasoned Oak said:


> Where is Teslas electric SUV or truck , GMS electric SUV or truck? With 75 %  of all sales going to SUVs and Trucks now and projected to be 84% of GM sales by 2022,and 90% of Fords sales and for Fiat, a whopping 97% of sales by 2022 how can these companies continue to all but ignore this market today.


Well Tesla has one suv : Model X .  Too bad that is crazy expensive. But you are right, legacy auto makers have no desire to make electric suv or truck.


----------



## begreen

gregbesia said:


> Well Tesla has one suv : Model X .  Too bad that is crazy expensive. But you are right, legacy auto makers have no desire to make electric suv or truck.


Actually they do and we will start seeing more all electric SUVs in the near future. The Jaguar iPace, Audi eTron, Hyundai Nexo & Kona, Kia Niro are already out. Volkswagen, & Volvo coming soon along with BMW, Mercedes. Ford now has the Explorer Hybrid but some reviews indicate it's a clunky implementation. They are poised to release an all-electric sporty SUV in 2020. Subaru has a new Crosstek hybrid out and are exploring an all-electric model now.


----------



## begreen

You can buy a Workhorse W15 now for about $52K. I think this is an update of the VIA truck. It's a hybrid based on Chevy Volt technology mated to a modified Chevy Silverado chassis. Ford is supposed to have both a hybrid and an electric version of the F150 coming up in a year. The Rivian and Tesla truck should arrive about then too.


----------



## begreen

Ashful said:


> Wrong. BMW came out with the i series in 2011. Volvo stopped developing ICEs altogether, at least two years ago. Chevy had the Volt, then the popular Bolt. Nissan has the Leaf.


These are sedans. The BMW i3 is not an SUV or truck. It's actually an odd little microcar. They just started selling the i8 but that is more of a roadster with low ground clearance. I think they are a year or two out at least for an electric SUV. First will be the iX3. Word is that it will be manufactured in China, for worldwide sales. Tariffs may make it too expensive here.


----------



## Ashful

begreen said:


> These are sedans.



I realized that, after I re-read his post.  You’re quoting a post that I think was deleted at least two hours before you quoted it.


----------



## begreen

No problem, looks like one hour, but evidently my browser had it cached. BMW is working on the iX3, so they will have an answer soon.


----------



## Ashful

begreen said:


> No problem, looks like one hour, but evidently my browser had it cached. BMW is working on the iX3, so they will have an answer soon.


Some amazing EV's out there... but I'm not optimistic about the cost structure, in the next five to ten years.  Government subsistence may be a necessary evil to get this tech off the ground, but I don't want my income taxes to pay for every Joe Blow's car from now until I retire.  We know they're not great at pulling their hand out of our pocket, once planted.

https://www.ydr.com/story/news/2017/04/12/pas-18-hidden-tax-supposed-temporary-1936/100343742/


----------



## begreen

They are a bit more expensive but the way I see it the maintenance costs are much less, so it averages out. I want to try out the iPace. It doesn't make economic sense right now, but maybe I can pick up one coming off a lease.


----------



## begreen

There is nothing cartoonish about the IMF report that the article was based on. Externalities are a fact that most often end up being paid by us the taxpayers in an extractive linear economy. They should be accounted for and manufacturers should be paying the bill for them. Yes, that will raise the cost of goods, but it will reduce the hidden costs we all pay for. 

We've derailed jebatty's thread for long enough. In the meantime he is enjoying his new fine ride and we all are a little bit envious.  I'll create a new thread on EV subsidies for this chatter and I moved the rest to a new EV Myths thread.


----------



## Where2

jebatty said:


> Went out to eat last night with our neighbors to a restaurant 14 miles away down the two lane highway. We offered the Tesla Model 3 to both the husband and the wife to drive, the wife balked but the husband jumped at the chance. A simple comment from the husband tells the story: "I really like this car."



Around the middle of last month, I managed to convince my wife to come with me to test drive an off-lease 2016 VW e-Golf. (A car most people don't know exists, the _*all electric*_ VW Golf)  The test drive paperwork I signed clearly said we had "up to 5 miles, and up to 15 minutes" before we needed to have the test car back to the dealer lot. I think I was less than 2 miles into the test drive before my wife said "*Let's get one!"*, and she wasn't even driving!! The instant torque that pushes you back in the seat, the fact that it looks like any other gas or diesel powered VW Golf, the fact that wouldn't break the bank going to an EV, my wife couldn't find a bunch of down sides to the EV concept. 

This isn't meant to hijack this thread. It's simply meant to say: if you can convince someone potentially on the fence to try the BEV concept, it's amazing how many skeptics end up with a smile on their face, and say "I really like this!". 

I'm still waiting for photos of jebatty's EV's    I'm also looking forward to some DCFC's showing up in South Florida. Tesla has superchargers all over South Florida, but I don't seem to find DCFC's showing up on PlugShare or Greenlots.


----------



## SpaceBus

Where2 said:


> Around the middle of last month, I managed to convince my wife to come with me to test drive an off-lease 2016 VW e-Golf. (A car most people don't know exists, the _*all electric*_ VW Golf)  The test drive paperwork I signed clearly said we had "up to 5 miles, and up to 15 minutes" before we needed to have the test car back to the dealer lot. I think I was less than 2 miles into the test drive before my wife said "*Let's get one!"*, and she wasn't even driving!! The instant torque that pushes you back in the seat, the fact that it looks like any other gas or diesel powered VW Golf, the fact that wouldn't break the bank going to an EV, my wife couldn't find a bunch of down sides to the EV concept.
> 
> This isn't meant to hijack this thread. It's simply meant to say: if you can convince someone potentially on the fence to try the BEV concept, it's amazing how many skeptics end up with a smile on their face, and say "I really like this!".
> 
> I'm still waiting for photos of jebatty's EV's    I'm also looking forward to some DCFC's showing up in South Florida. Tesla has superchargers all over South Florida, but I don't seem to find DCFC's showing up on PlugShare or Greenlots.



I had no clue VW sold E Golfs in the US.


----------



## Ashful

SpaceBus said:


> I had no clue VW sold E Golfs in the US.



Volvo also has the Polestar T8 eAWD plug-in hybrid version of their V60 wagon.  It looks very nice, I came across it while shopping for a new sports wagon.

Trouble is, the price skips up by almost 50% from the regular gasser, from $46k to $67k.  I think it’s going to be a long time before the average Volvo owner is ready to shell out an extra $21k on a $46k car to get hybrid functionality, even if it comes with a nice hp gain.


----------



## SpaceBus

Ashful said:


> Volvo also has the Polestar T8 eAWD plug-in hybrid version of their V60 wagon.  It looks very nice, I came across it while shopping for a new sports wagon.
> 
> Trouble is, the price skips up by almost 50% from the regular gasser, from $46k to $67k.  I think it’s going to be a long time before the average Volvo owner is ready to shell out an extra $21k on a $46k car to get hybrid functionality, even if it comes with a nice hp gain.



Wow, that's a slick ride though. I really like Volvos, but haven't been paying attention to new cars since 2015 or so when they were changing everything up again.


----------



## begreen

VW's new ID platform is aimed at lowering the cost of electric cars. They are investing deeply in this new international platform. Hoping they are successful.


----------



## SpaceBus

begreen said:


> VW's new ID platform is aimed at lowering the cost of electric cars. They are investing deeply in this new international platform. Hoping they are successful.



They are putting all of their eggs in the EV/Hybrid basket after this diesel stuff. I wouldn't say "stuff" is accurate, but that's another thread in itself.


----------



## begreen

I should have said VW's forthcoming MEB platform on which the ID series will be based. This will also be used by Audi, SEAT and Skoda. The VW ID.3 is supposed to go into production in November.


----------



## SpaceBus

begreen said:


> I should have said VW's forthcoming MEB platform on which the ID series will be based. This will also be used by Audi, SEAT and Skoda. The VW ID.3 is supposed to go into production in November.



Everyone uses the MEB. The Auid A3, TT, VW Golf, Beetle, Scirroco, and several Skoda and seat models all use it. VW, along with GM are the most prolific badge engineering companies.


----------



## begreen

?? The MEB platform is new, electric cars only. I don't think there are any models on the road with it now.
https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/modular-electric-drive-matrix-meb-3677
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group_MEB_platform


----------



## SpaceBus

begreen said:


> ?? The MEB platform is new, electric cars only. I don't think there are any models on the road with it now.
> https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/modular-electric-drive-matrix-meb-3677
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group_MEB_platform


My mistake, confused MEB and MQB. VAG uses the MQB (golf) platform for ten different models.


----------



## Where2

SpaceBus said:


> I had no clue VW sold E Golfs in the US.



Ironically, *Maine* is one of the 10 US states VW actually sells e-Golfs in, SpaceBus!! Of course, what that technically means is that one dealer in your state had one in stock for several months now... I contacted the dealer and offered to take that car off their hands, but dealers closer to D.C. were able to offer better enticements. VW marketing has been lackluster in providing any meaningful marketing hype about this model in the *4 years* it has been on the market in the US!! I think one particular post to a high traffic website mid-summer probably moved more e-Golf vehicles off dealer lots than anything recently.


----------



## Ashful

Where2 said:


> Ironically, *Maine* is one of the 10 US states VW actually sells e-Golfs in, SpaceBus!! Of course, what that technically means is that one dealer in your state had one in stock for several months now... I contacted the dealer and offered to take that car off their hands, but dealers closer to D.C. were able to offer better enticements. VW marketing has been lackluster in providing any meaningful marketing hype about this model in the *4 years* it has been on the market in the US!! I think one particular post to a high traffic website mid-summer probably moved more e-Golf vehicles off dealer lots than anything recently.



In that environment, what is your expectation for service and repair? It sounds likely that when you take this thing to a VW dealer for a recall, repair, or service item, it will likely be the first e-Golf that technician or mechanic has ever seen.

... and then what’s the chance they’ll have the part you need in stock, when it comes time for that repair?


----------



## SpaceBus

Where2 said:


> Ironically, *Maine* is one of the 10 US states VW actually sells e-Golfs in, SpaceBus!! Of course, what that technically means is that one dealer in your state had one in stock for several months now... I contacted the dealer and offered to take that car off their hands, but dealers closer to D.C. were able to offer better enticements. VW marketing has been lackluster in providing any meaningful marketing hype about this model in the *4 years* it has been on the market in the US!! I think one particular post to a high traffic website mid-summer probably moved more e-Golf vehicles off dealer lots than anything recently.



My wife really likes VW, especially the MK7 Golf. I mentioned to her the existence of the E Golf in the US and I saw a sparkle in her eye. Unfortunately we haven't built a garage yet, so eventually we will get an EV.


----------



## SpaceBus

Ashful said:


> In that environment, what is your expectation for service and repair? It sounds likely that when you take this thing to a VW dealer for a recall, repair, or service item, it will likely be the first e-Golf that technician or mechanic has ever seen.
> 
> ... and then what’s the chance they’ll have the part you need in stock, when it comes time for that repair?



There aren't any Fiat dealers near us, but there is a Chrysler dealer. My wife's Abarth is the first cabriolet they've ever seen. Parts cost double locally vs online as well. Basically I'm going to become an amateur Fiat mechanic soon. If I could only get some All Data access.


Also, to be fair, VW, Volvo, and even Saabs are very popular here and there are a few independent European car mechanics around.


----------



## Ashful

SpaceBus said:


> I'm going to become an amateur Fiat mechanic soon.



Is your name Tony? [emoji3]

FIAT = Fix It Again, Tony!

I personally always preferred “Failure in Italian Automotive Technology”. I do love some of their cars, though, that Abarth looks hella fun. 

It’s okay, you can tell me my car is Mostly Old Parts And Rust.


----------



## begreen

Musk says Tesla truck will debut in November. There's lots of speculating on price and design.








						UPDATE: Tesla Pickup Truck Makes World Debut: Cybertruck Shocks World
					

Tesla revealed it's shocking electric pickup truck to the world and we now know official details, including specs, pricing, range and more.




					insideevs.com


----------



## SpaceBus

Ashful said:


> Is your name Tony? [emoji3]
> 
> FIAT = Fix It Again, Tony!
> 
> I personally always preferred “Failure in Italian Automotive Technology”. I do love some of their cars, though, that Abarth looks hella fun.
> 
> It’s okay, you can tell me my car is Mostly Old Parts And Rust.



I had an SRT car a few years ago myself, lest you forget the dodge Dually sitting in the driveway as well. It actually just got a new water pump, but I suspect the previous pump to be 250,000 miles and 14 years old.


----------



## Where2

Ashful said:


> In that environment, what is your expectation for service and repair? It sounds likely that when you take this thing to a VW dealer for a recall, repair, or service item, it will likely be the first e-Golf that technician or mechanic has ever seen.
> 
> ... and then what’s the chance they’ll have the part you need in stock, when it comes time for that repair?



Other than the driveline, the remainder of the e-Golf is all Mk7 or Mk7.5 Golf parts. So, if a wiper motor goes, or a window regulator goes, a window switch fails, or the rear view camera acts up, it's nothing the tech's haven't seen on a gas or diesel Golf. I've debated going and parking it at the dealership just outside the showroom on a weekend, just to annoy the sales people with customers asking "What's that?", "How do I get one of those?" or "Can I test drive that e-Golf outside??". 

If I want to challenge a VW tech with something they've truly never seen before, I will take my factory supercharged VW Corrado to the dealership. My local dealership touched it _*once*_, ~20 years ago, and broke parts they shouldn't have if they knew what they were doing replacing my heater core... In retrospect, they probably should have reviewed the Bentley manual I left for them in the passenger seat. Having owned a VW Corrado since 1997, I can assure you that both my wife and I have mastered the "how to get the part you need ordered from the parts department for a car they know nothing about behind the parts counter". I have contacts at other dealerships that I've used to order parts for my obscure VWs. 

As for actual "routine service" to the e-Golf, you rotate the tires, top off the windshield washer fluid, check the antifreeze (G13) level, check the tire pressures, change the cabin air filter, and drive the car another 10k miles. If you drive the car right, you basically never wear out the brake pads, because the braking is mostly regenerative. 

The sales team at my local dealership already warned me "None of our service techs are certified on the high voltage systems on an e-Golf". Great, if the dealership intends to support the upcoming ID series VW electric vehicles, they best start sending their techs to school for EV's... From what I understand from the forums, VW utilizes traveling techs to fill in when a dealership cannot properly support the needs of the customer with an e-Golf.


----------



## begreen

VW intends to develop 10 vehicles based on the MEB platform. They are placing all bets on going electric, including with the iconic van. I suspect their mechanics will learn this well enough.


----------



## Ashful

Definitely. I’m just thinking that, as a customer with no particular brand loyalty, VW would not be my current top choice if shopping EVs. Someday in the future, sure.


----------



## begreen

Ashful said:


> Definitely. I’m just thinking that, as a customer with no particular brand loyalty, VW would not be my current top choice if shopping EVs. Someday in the future, sure.


All EVs are current choices, so to speak.


----------



## SpaceBus

Where2 said:


> Other than the driveline, the remainder of the e-Golf is all Mk7 or Mk7.5 Golf parts. So, if a wiper motor goes, or a window regulator goes, a window switch fails, or the rear view camera acts up, it's nothing the tech's haven't seen on a gas or diesel Golf. I've debated going and parking it at the dealership just outside the showroom on a weekend, just to annoy the sales people with customers asking "What's that?", "How do I get one of those?" or "Can I test drive that e-Golf outside??".
> 
> If I want to challenge a VW tech with something they've truly never seen before, I will take my factory supercharged VW Corrado to the dealership. My local dealership touched it _*once*_, ~20 years ago, and broke parts they shouldn't have if they knew what they were doing replacing my heater core... In retrospect, they probably should have reviewed the Bentley manual I left for them in the passenger seat. Having owned a VW Corrado since 1997, I can assure you that both my wife and I have mastered the "how to get the part you need ordered from the parts department for a car they know nothing about behind the parts counter". I have contacts at other dealerships that I've used to order parts for my obscure VWs.
> 
> As for actual "routine service" to the e-Golf, you rotate the tires, top off the windshield washer fluid, check the antifreeze (G13) level, check the tire pressures, change the cabin air filter, and drive the car another 10k miles. If you drive the car right, you basically never wear out the brake pads, because the braking is mostly regenerative.
> 
> The sales team at my local dealership already warned me "None of our service techs are certified on the high voltage systems on an e-Golf". Great, if the dealership intends to support the upcoming ID series VW electric vehicles, they best start sending their techs to school for EV's... From what I understand from the forums, VW utilizes traveling techs to fill in when a dealership cannot properly support the needs of the customer with an e-Golf.



G ladder Corrado? I know some guys back in NC that autocross with old Sciroccos and MK1 rabbits. The early water cooled sporty VW community is pretty small, so I wouldn't be surprised if you knew them. One is a square headlight rabbit that is one of the fastest cars I've ever seen with relatively no HP.


----------



## SpaceBus

begreen said:


> VW intends to develop 10 vehicles based on the MEB platform. They are placing all bets on going electric, including with the iconic van. I suspect their mechanics will learn this well enough.


Diesel did not work out for them, or really anybody it seems.


----------



## Where2

SpaceBus said:


> Diesel did not work out for them, or really anybody it seems.



Their diesels worked out fine for me. Two weeks ago, I was driving a 2004 TDI with 233k. In 2006, my wife got a new TDI which served us well and took us on travels for 169k before it was totaled in February. My sister has my old company car, a 2006 TDI with 128k (I put the first 125k on it), and my wife has a 2013 TDI with 57k which we bought to replace her totaled TDI above.  The wife's 2013 was a VW dieselgate buy back that was reflashed by VW, and sold as certified pre-owned. The extra 40hp in the 2013 is definitely noticeable over my 2004! My favorite part of owning the TDI is not the daily fuel economy, it's the ability to find fuel for them after the gas stations all run out of gasoline prior to a hurricane.   I already sorta miss that with the EV. 


SpaceBus said:


> I know some guys back in NC that autocross with old Sciroccos and MK1 rabbits... One is a square headlight rabbit that is one of the fastest cars I've ever seen with relatively no HP.


I have a friend who races SCCA in NC. My friend probably knows your friends. Prior to the Corrado, I  had an S model Scirocco, which happily received an '85 Golf_//_GTI engine, complete with the knock sensing ignition and KE-Jetronic FI coupled to the S factory 5 speed (not the GTI close ratio box). If your friends are running the GTI close ratio boxes, the vehicles they are racing are light and nimble cars, even with under 100hp. The GTI engine I put in was 10.5:1 CR, and was rated 100hp. The jump from the stock 76hp to 100hp was well worth the efforts I put into my engine swap, but the 1.8L forced induction Corrado with 158hp was worlds more refined than my Scirocco. 



Ashful said:


> I’m just thinking that, as a customer with no particular brand loyalty, VW would not be my current top choice if shopping EVs. Someday in the future, sure.



Aside from my obvious brand loyalty, what actually motivated me to park my 2004 TDI was the e-Golf incentives as the automotive model year came to a close. Tesla doesn't have new model 3's, and even Autotrader can't offer me a used Model 3 for nearly the price point I'm in the e-Golf for. Tesla is also done with their April 15th, federal incentives, having sold more than 200,000 units. I'll sink the remainder of what I could have spent for a Model 3 into my backyard solar farm... 

Most people I talk to about this car say almost the same thing SpaceBus said: "I didn't know VW was selling a 100% Electric Vehicle in the US."


----------



## jebatty

A little surprised that the Chevy Bolt fails to get mention in the midst of all the comments. So, being a proud owner also of a Chevy Bolt, equipped with the DC fast charge option, and more than 20,000 miles since purchase in February 2018, this brief update: 1) problem-free from the start; 2) handles MN winters well, including driving in temps as low as -29F; 3) with a rated range of 238 miles, experienced reduced range to about 140 miles in the coldest of winter and expanded range to 300+ miles in summer at temps in the high 70's on a full charge and mixed local/highway driving. Nearly all charging is done at home on a Level 2 charger; most home charging is to approximately 90% using the Hilltop Reserve option; have used a DC fast charger only about 8 times.

In short, very pleased with the Chevy Bolt. It has met all of the goals I had when I purchased it.


----------



## SpaceBus

Where2 said:


> Their diesels worked out fine for me. Two weeks ago, I was driving a 2004 TDI with 233k. In 2006, my wife got a new TDI which served us well and took us on travels for 169k before it was totaled in February. My sister has my old company car, a 2006 TDI with 128k (I put the first 125k on it), and my wife has a 2013 TDI with 57k which we bought to replace her totaled TDI above.  The wife's 2013 was a VW dieselgate buy back that was reflashed by VW, and sold as certified pre-owned. The extra 40hp in the 2013 is definitely noticeable over my 2004! My favorite part of owning the TDI is not the daily fuel economy, it's the ability to find fuel for them after the gas stations all run out of gasoline prior to a hurricane.   I already sorta miss that with the EV.
> 
> I have a friend who races SCCA in NC. My friend probably knows your friends. Prior to the Corrado, I  had an S model Scirocco, which happily received an '85 Golf_//_GTI engine, complete with the knock sensing ignition and KE-Jetronic FI coupled to the S factory 5 speed (not the GTI close ratio box). If your friends are running the GTI close ratio boxes, the vehicles they are racing are light and nimble cars, even with under 100hp. The GTI engine I put in was 10.5:1 CR, and was rated 100hp. The jump from the stock 76hp to 100hp was well worth the efforts I put into my engine swap, but the 1.8L forced induction Corrado with 158hp was worlds more refined than my Scirocco.



You still didn't tell me if it was a G ladder supercharger or not the Corrado is probably the best looking early water cooled VW as well. 

Then I'm sure you know of the SCCA famous Lamborbunni and the owner Zimmer and Co driver Duckworth. I think they took a few seasons off, but they did win the FSP National Championship with that old rabbit. I'm pretty sure it was 16 V swapped with a megasquirt system of Zimmer's design. I haven't been racing in three years and haven't really been on facebook in ages either so I don't know what is going on with the grassroots racing scene anymore. I hope to someday get a RallyX club started around here!


----------



## woodgeek

Good to hear that the Bolt is still getting some love next to its sexier sibling!


----------



## Ashful

jebatty said:


> A little surprised that the Chevy Bolt fails to get mention in the midst of all the comments.



A buddy at work got a Volt in 2012, and traded it for a Bolt in 2016. Both leased. I’ve ridden in both, and have to admit the Bolt seems the most likely to hit all of the major requirements or desires of the average commuter. I wonder why they’re not more popular among the Camry or Altima (read “lame”) crowd, but it could be as simple as it’s wearing an American badge, and history has those folks fed up with the big-3.

The guy who owns them has never been into very fast or exciting cars, hence the Bolt, but he does love that car. He’s already starting to talk about his next EV, when this lease expires.


----------



## woodgeek

The Bolt was the most fun and nicest car I ever owned.  I miss it.


----------



## jebatty

I don't think Chevy really marketed the Bolt, and it's only recently that I have seen some PR releases from Chevy. Also, I think many Chevy dealers either didn't want to carry the Bolt and a trained tech to service it, or Chevy made it too expensive or onerous for dealers to carry the Bolt, or Chevy never had the supply or desire to actually deal with reasonable demand. The dealer from whom I purchased the Bolt is 140 miles away, and the local (40 miles away) dealer doesn't carry the Bolt and told me that it was too expensive to be certified by Chevy to carry/service the Bolt.

In my opinion, Chevy really dropped the ball on what could have been, and maybe still can be, a serious competitor in the commuter market. The hatchback design has lots of storage space with the seats folded down, and good space with the seats up.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

The Buick Enspire Is an All-Electric Concept SUV with 550 HP
					

It supposedly packs an all-electric drivetrain with 550 horsepower and a battery pack providing 370 miles of range.




					www.caranddriver.com
				




This one is very interesting especially to the performance minded. A direct tesla competitor for their model X.
Im immensely curios about EVs .  Thinking a high performance electric is in my future.  Mostly as an expensive toy but hey i only have so much time left for toys, and everything else!


----------



## begreen

jebatty said:


> I don't think Chevy really marketed the Bolt, and it's only recently that I have seen some PR releases from Chevy. Also, I think many Chevy dealers either didn't want to carry the Bolt and a trained tech to service it, or Chevy made it too expensive or onerous for dealers to carry the Bolt, or Chevy never had the supply or desire to actually deal with reasonable demand. The dealer from whom I purchased the Bolt is 140 miles away, and the local (40 miles away) dealer doesn't carry the Bolt and told me that it was too expensive to be certified by Chevy to carry/service the Bolt.
> 
> In my opinion, Chevy really dropped the ball on what could have been, and maybe still can be, a serious competitor in the commuter market. The hatchback design has lots of storage space with the seats folded down, and good space with the seats up.


Our local dealer had a lot of Bolts and I really tried to like it, but it felt like a step down from the Volt. The interior felt cheap and the dash treatment cheesy. I found myself wondering if I could paint over all that white plastic. Also, the steering felt artificial and over corrective, like it was trying too hard to center the car, particularly on sloped surfaces. I love driving electric and wanted to like the Bolt, but my thoughts are that Chevy set the bar a little too low. This is one of the reasons we got the Volt instead of a Leaf. Our Volt only has 36K on it so we have decided to wait for the next generation.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

begreen said:


> Our local dealer had a lot of Bolts and I really tried to like it, but it felt like a step down from the Volt. The interior felt cheap and the dash treatment cheesy. I found myself wondering if I could paint over all that white plastic.


Thats good to know as im most likely going with a good used model.  And used Volts are so much cheaper than
 Bolts. Although id consider a new one if it were more family useful say a mid size SUV style. The volt would more like my daughters first car thing.  And i do like the fact that theres no way you can get stranded  with a dead battery in a volt.


----------



## Ashful

What’s the battery life expectation on a used Volt?


----------



## Seasoned Oak

Ashful said:


> What’s the battery life expectation on a used Volt?


From what iv been reading the degradation in the batteries is minimal and exceeding estimates. I guess due to the build quality and the thermal management system.


----------



## begreen

Ashful said:


> What’s the battery life expectation on a used Volt?


Yes, there seems to be minimal degradation during the life of the vehicle. The longest I have read is something like 468,000 miles and was still going, but it got in an accident.  Word is someone else bought it and is resurrecting it now. GM went super conservatively with the battery pack and charging routines. It also has a good thermal management system.


----------



## Ashful

I remember watching the YouTube cud’s from that guy with 468k miles on his Volt. It should be resurrected!


----------



## Seasoned Oak

The youtube video where the guy owns both a Bolt and a Model 3 is interesting.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

Theres some nice looking Model S Teslas, low mileage, even a P85 with   400+ HP in the low 30s on autotrader.  A bit of a negative that you cant get parts for these or work on them yourself.  But certainly a great ride.


----------



## Ashful

Seasoned Oak said:


> Theres some nice looking Model S Teslas, low mileage, even a P85 with   400+ HP in the low 30s on autotrader.  A bit of a negative that you cant get partes for these or work on them yourself.  But certainly a great ride.


Hmm... just Googled "Tesla Service Center" and was a little disappointed at the results.  Closest was 45 minutes each way, in off-peak hours, it would easily be 1:15 hours in peak traffic.  If I end up being unhappy with those folks, the other three results are all at least a half hour to 45 minutes (each way!) farther than that.

Having nearly zero brand loyalty, I usually shop by which dealers are closest to my work or home.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

Could radically affect the cost of ownership to have to use the dealer all the time.  Depending on frequency of issues.


----------



## lsucet

Seasoned Oak said:


> Could radically affect the cost of ownership to have to use the dealer all the time.  Depending on frequency of issues.


All diy is going away with EVs. High voltage is not something to take so lightly. You need to know what you are doing and have the proper gear to work on it. Regardless it is a Tesla, Chevy, Ford etc, consumers will have way less interaction. if any.


----------



## Ashful

lsucet said:


> All diy is going away with EVs. High voltage is not something to take so lightly. You need to know what you are doing and have the proper gear to work on it. Regardless it is a Tesla, Chevy, Ford etc, consumers will have way less interaction. if any.


What is the operating or primary bus voltage on these things?

The stored energy in this much battery is downright frightening.


----------



## begreen

Depends on the vehicle. Could be 280 to 400v. The stored energy behind a home electrical panel is more impressive.


----------



## lsucet

Ashful said:


> What is the operating or primary bus voltage on these things?
> 
> The stored energy in this much battery is downright frightening.


It varies like begreen said but the funny part is the isolation process to can work safe. Just unplugging the disconnect don't give you the okay. Requires special/expensive DVM that reads isolation. Many modules can keep the capacitors charged for a long time or if it is defective. Once isolation is done it is okay to work on it. The things is there is nothing in there for consumers to fix unless you know what you are doing. Is not like you can go to an auto part places and buy parts.


----------



## SpaceBus

Electric cars will be easier for consumers than any gas engine. ICE drivetrains are super complicated with hundreds of moving parts. As long as the proper precautions are taken EVs are no more dangerous than an ICE car. Plenty of folks have died or had serious injuries working on cars. Lots of hazardous chemicals on board ICE vehicles as well. 

When I was in automotive school some previous classes made an all electric Ford Ranger (pre OBDII vintage) and were working on an electric 240SX drag car. 

There also shouldn't be much if any need to mess with the high voltage components of an EV. How often do you remove fuel lines and remove engine components on an ICE? The most common vehicle maintenance item specific to and ICE vehicle is an oil change. What is there to do on the EV? The most efficient gas engines now need regular cleaning of the intake valves to remove oil and carbon deposits. It's not like the typical owner is performing this level of maintenance.


----------



## Ashful

SpaceBus said:


> It's not like the typical owner is performing this level of maintenance.


We’ve already proven the members of this forum aren’t the most “typical” owners of anything. [emoji14]

As to the stored energy, there are some caveats there, begreen. A shorted line downstream of your AC main will always trip the main, and will never cause a chemical explosion, the way a wrench across a battery can. Also, AC is far less hazardous to the technician, for both no-let-go issues and stored charge issues (AC circuits tend to not have large capacitors without bleed-down discharge means).

Like any new tech, folks will adapt. I’m forever impressed with what motivated people figure out, whether they went to school for it, or not. Since I do the sparky stuff for a living, I have no trepidation there.


----------



## CaptSpiff

lsucet said:


> All diy is going away with EVs. High voltage is not something to take so lightly.



I think you mean most corner auto repair shops will go away. And that's already happening due to the manufacturer's proprietary practices. And yes, Tesla is the king of this.
But home DIY will likely continue. Just last month I was doing front brakes on the F150 and noticed the bottom turn of my front passenger coil spring was broken. I finished the brakes, went back to the computer, watched a few YouTube videos, ordered a pair of "loaded struts", penciled in next Sat in the garage. I really didn't want to do the job, but the local Firestone center estimated $976 for both struts. RockAuto sent me the same Monroe struts for $240 incl tax and shipping. That type of diy maintenance will continue long after the fleet is EV.



begreen said:


> Depends on the vehicle. Could be 280 to 400v. The stored energy behind a home electrical panel is more impressive.


I'm reading that manufacturers are exploring 800v battery systems to get the motor HP up and the rapid recharging rates down.


----------



## lsucet

There are some things that always consumer will be able to do but each days are less and less. You need some certified gears and have knowledge to deal with the high voltage on these cars. Special rubber gloves are a must and in a good working condition plus electronic equipments. ICE cars are not going away at all for long time. We already have info and getting trained of many technologies in the future for ICE vehicles. EVs have just a small market at this point and it will stays like that for long time. Most of the EV consumers can afford repairs and maintenance done by dealers and certified places. They are not vehicles for everyone.


----------



## begreen

Ashful said:


> As to the stored energy, there are some caveats there, begreen. A shorted line downstream of your AC main will always trip the main, and will never cause a chemical explosion, the way a wrench across a battery can. Also, AC is far less hazardous to the technician, for both no-let-go issues and stored charge issues (AC circuits tend to not have large capacitors without bleed-down discharge means).


There have been many deaths due to work on home electric circuits. Lots of ways to die there. It's kind of a moot point of whether you are killed by a 110v circuit that went through your body to ground or 400 v working on a car. My point is that access to these home circuits is much more possible than it is in an electric car.  Then there is the stored energy potential for a tank of gasoline of about 700 kWh.

Mostly it's the amperage that kills you. As a youth I was zapped by capacitor discharge for a CRT of several thousand volts. And also from a 1000v oil burner transformer. I'm still here and lucky. The shock was just through my hand and not my body to ground.


----------



## semipro

Trying not to veer too much here but...
I got shocked so hard once by an automotive ignition system that I was temporarily deaf in one ear for a while - scary.

Electricity is kind of like nuclear as a threat - not readily perceived until its too late.
Most hazards from an ICE vehicle tend to give you some warning first, usually a smelly or noisy one.


----------



## SpaceBus

Hopefully Jebatty will regale us with tales of his maintenance regimine.


----------



## maple1

6 pages & no picture yet?



(Or did I miss one...)


----------



## Seasoned Oak

Those Model S cars where 75 to 120K  new. So it seems like they have depreciated quickly.  Most late model low mile used are from low 30s to mid 40s .


----------



## jebatty

SpaceBus said:


> Hopefully Jebatty will regale us with tales of his maintenance regimine.


My maintenance regime to date on both the Chevy Bolt and Tesla Model 3: add air to tires, fill the windshield washer vessel.  The Tesla is due for a tire rotation.
[


----------



## jebatty

begreen said:


> Mostly it's the amperage that kills you.


True, but the answer might be better understood through use of Ohm's Law. Google searches indicate amperage of 100-200ma  (0.1 to 0 .2 amps) is enough to kill a person. Approximate electrical resistance (ohms) of a human body through dry skin is about 500 ohms. The formula is Amps = Volts / Ohms. 

Amps through good contact with dry skin on a human body with a 12V car battery is 12/500 =  0.024, which is enough to feel a shock. Many  people probably would not feel a shock with a 12V battery due to poor electrical contact with the skin. I have felt a pretty good shock from a 9V device battery if I wet my skin at the contact points. 

However, with a 400V battery  the current is 400/500 = 0.8 amps, definitely more than enough to kill. Most people would elect not to due their own wiring in a home, both on 110-120V circuits but especially on  220-240V circuits. And that would be a good decision, and it would be a very good  decision not to work on the high voltage circuits of an electric vehicle.


----------



## SpaceBus

jebatty said:


> My maintenance regime to date on both the Chevy Bolt and Tesla Model 3: add air to tires, fill the windshield washer vessel.  The Tesla is due for a tire rotation.
> [


That sounds awesome.


----------



## jebatty

maple1 said:


> 6 pages & no picture yet?


Sorry, maple. Lots of pictures posted on various sites are available. BTW, my wife's 81 year old friend asked to drive the Tesla a couple of days ago. After the drive she said that she is going to buy one. Should know soon if she follows through. I think a person of any age, but especially an elder, is  missing a real golden age opportunity if they don't buy or lease a quality BEV.


----------



## jebatty

jebatty said:


> my wife's 81 year old friend asked to drive the Tesla a couple of days ago.


Learned yesterday that she put in her order for a black Model 3, dual motor, AWD. One savvy lady and one awesome car.


----------



## Where2

jebatty said:


> Learned yesterday that she put in her order for a black Model 3, dual motor, AWD. One savvy lady and one awesome car.



If you have the coins for one, why not? As many (including my own parents) have proven, you can't take it with you... Is she looking to adopt any children or grandchildren to inherit that beauty?  I can offer up my sister for adoption.  My sister wants an EV, but isn't willing to pony up for the Model X to cart her family around in... 

I'm finding this whole driving on batteries is a hoot, especially when I can recharge them with the PV array! I haven't been to a gas station in over a month...


----------



## SpaceBus

Where2 said:


> If you have the coins for one, why not? As many (including my own parents) have proven, you can't take it with you... Is she looking to adopt any children or grandchildren to inherit that beauty?  I can offer up my sister for adoption.  My sister wants an EV, but isn't willing to pony up for the Model X to cart her family around in...
> 
> I'm finding this whole driving on batteries is a hoot, especially when I can recharge them with the PV array! I haven't been to a gas station in over a month...



The model X is a drool worthy car with a drool worthy price.


----------



## Ashful

I wonder how Nikola would feel about all of this, someone profiting immensely off his name, knowing a bit of his ethics. 

In any case, is it model “ex” or model 10? I’ve found no authority on its pronunciation.

I’ve never seen one, but reviews have not been fantastic for an $80k+ car. Most of the criticism seems to be the interior, the handling and acceleration are supposed to be very good, no surprise.


----------



## SpaceBus

Ashful said:


> I wonder how Nikola would feel about all of this, someone profiting immensely off his name, knowing a bit of his ethics.
> 
> In any case, is it model “ex” or model 10? I’ve found no authority on its pronunciation.
> 
> I’ve never seen one, but reviews have not been fantastic for an $80k+ car. Most of the criticism seems to be the interior, the handling and acceleration are supposed to be very good, no surprise.



It's hard to trust reviews anymore. The only parts I really care about when reading reviews, for any product really, are verification of manufacturer specs/claims and good quality photos and videos of the product in real life. Even car reviews by professional automotive magazine writers are just white noise to me now. Maybe I'm just getting old.


----------



## lsucet

I have two friends in California, one in San Diego and the other LA area. They have the model X and they love them. When I never actually drive it cause we went to an early lunch and were just playing catch-up, I was , like a passenger impressed. Don't know about gadgets etc but it is a dream. It was about 40 minutes round trip and quick cause I have to comeback and be at work next day ( Monday morning ). I just went to pick up some horses. The self driving is awesome. All I know is the loaded one with all kind the things and battery range etc. 
The only time that I feel that power that pull me into the seat is when I drive a SRT of a Hell Cat for drivability concern and I am trying to duplicate concern. All in all it was a wonderful experience.


----------



## lsucet

Sorry guys it was a model S not the X, my bad.
Still is impressive.


----------



## Ashful

lsucet said:


> The only time that I feel that power that pull me into the seat is when I drive a SRT ...



My daily driver is an SRT, and I’ve driven the Model S dual motor AWD. The SRT still blows the doors off the Tesla, but I have to admit the Model S is violently quick off the line, or at any speed below 30 mph. The S lacks similar highway passing performance, or really anything much above 30 mph, but it’s fantastic around town.

My family member who owns the Tesla once borrowed my SRT.  When my wife asked him what he thought of it, he replied, “frightening.”

If comparing to a Hellcat, just forget it. There’s just no arguing with 707 HP. [emoji3]


----------



## Seasoned Oak

Electric-Car Owners Hard Hit by Massive California Power Shutdown
					

Tesla's Elon Musk promises battery and solar solutions for the many EV owners who can't charge their cars.




					news.yahoo.com
				



California residents purchasing electric cars will have to plan for this in the future.


----------



## begreen

Interesting dilemma. CA probably has the most electric cars per capita in the US. It also means that some gas stations won't be pumping either.


----------



## Where2

Seasoned Oak said:


> California residents purchasing electric cars will have to plan for this in the future.


The weekend my e-Golf was delivered, Dorian was hammering the Bahamas just 100 miles away. Had that storm come ashore in South Florida like it hammered Abaco as a Category 5 storm, the charging grid in South Florida would actually be more bleak than California in their current blackouts. I've already done the research on whether you can charge an EV from a generator (if you have gasoline), and the answer appears to be "yes". Now, I just need to build this into my disaster plan.


----------



## semipro

At least electricity can be produced at home -- gasoline, not so much. 
This drives our contingency plans -- solar PV with storage and an EV.


----------



## Ashful

semipro said:


> At least electricity can be produced at home -- gasoline, not so much.
> This drives our contingency plans -- solar PV with storage and an EV.



Exactly. Anyone making excuses about EV tech potential (or even current capability) is going to find themselves on the wrong side of history. The only real obstacle at this point is cost and systemic growing pains (eg. loss of gas tax revenue and fast charging grid).  I just can’t see spending $65k on a Tesla that is outperformed by equally nice (or better) gassers that can be had < $50k, today.  Hopefully that will change real soon.  

That said, I also fear what this means for those of us who love a roaring big-displacement engine, when the rest of the world has gone silent. Noise ordinances? Bans on driving ICE’s at certain times or locations? I can see this as a real possibility, having lived long enough to see things come to pass, that our parents would have considered equally unlikely.

In ten years, my daily driver will be an EV with a <2.5 second 0-60 time, but I’ll also have a 427 s/c that comes out to play on sunny days.  Hopefully the neighbors don’t mind the noise.


----------



## gregbesia

Ashful said:


> Exactly. Anyone making excuses about EV tech potential (or even current capability) is going to find themselves on the wrong side of history. The only real obstacle at this point is cost and systemic growing pains (eg. loss of gas tax revenue and fast charging grid).  I just can’t see spending $65k on a Tesla that is outperformed by equally nice (or better) gassers that can be had < $50k, today.  Hopefully that will change real soon.
> 
> That said, I also fear what this means for those of us who love a roaring big-displacement engine, when the rest of the world has gone silent. Noise ordinances? Bans on driving ICE’s at certain times or locations? I can see this as a real possibility, having lived long enough to see things come to pass, that our parents would have considered equally unlikely.
> 
> In ten years, my daily driver will be an EV with a <2.5 second 0-60 time, but I’ll also have a 427 s/c that comes out to play on sunny days.  Hopefully the neighbors don’t mind the noise.


Looks like Tesla lowered it’s cars price a bit. Model3 is now 35K to 56K for performance. You can even get some money back when doing your taxes.  (I know it does not apply to Ashful because he doesn’t believe a government should subsidize any industry )


----------



## jebatty

Following this thread as well as other comment boards result in always bringing me back to answer for myself "why do I like the Tesla Model 3 so much"? I've had a muscle car, a 1972 Chevelle SS 454 with headers, albeit about 50 years ago. What I remember most about the SS was the feeling of power, ability to reach over 100mph heading down a freeway ramp, and the throaty vibration of the car as I would sit with my foot on the brake at a red light, as well as the fact that I couldn't afford to buy gas to keep it fueled. Hence, after one year I sold the car.

And since that time, l simply looked at cars for their primary function of providing efficient and reliable family transportation. Consequently, first with a couple of Chevys, a Fiat, and a Dodge Aspen, from 1986 until 2018 the Toyota Camry was the car of choice: insanely reliable and inexpensive to maintain, mileage 30-35mpg, reasonably priced and simply a great car for transportation.

But then things changed, a little with the Bolt but especially with the Tesla. The idea of an electric car, the thought of reaching into the future of auto transportation while I still could, and my personal experience with solar PV and its ability to fuel a car, overwhelmed me. The only electric car that I wanted was an all electric, that is a BEV, no hybrid or PHEV, and with sufficient range to meet the great majority of my driving needs, summer and winter. The only car that met that criteria was the Chevy Bolt which I bought in February 2018. What was painful about this is that I would have purchased a Toyota, had Toyota an electric car to sell me. Also painful is that based on my long history with Toyota, I doubt I will a buy a Toyota ever again.

Then my wife researched the Tesla Model 3, read endless article, watched numerous video, and our car world begin to change in a major way. We placed our order in January 2019 and picked up our Model 3 at the end of March 2019. On a muscle car level, not all, more like a Piranha waiting in the weeds to silently devour the opposition. Features, more and better than anything else available. Technology, out of this world. And comfort with endless smoothness in every respect. The Tesla is a car which simply "IS." No need for pretense or glitz -- just do what you do and do it superbly. 

Back to the question "why do I like the Tesla Model 3 so much"? Not much more to say. Just this: I was thinking earlier on this cold Sunday morning in northern MN, outside temp 30F, cold NW wind, overcast sky with snow flurries, what would be fun to do today? The answer came quickly, slip into the Tesla and go for a ride. And that's what I'm going to do. Excitement, fun, just from driving a Tesla.


----------



## semipro

Ashful said:


> Exactly. Anyone making excuses about EV tech potential (or even current capability) is going to find themselves on the wrong side of history. The only real obstacle at this point is cost and systemic growing pains (eg. loss of gas tax revenue and fast charging grid).  I just can’t see spending $65k on a Tesla that is outperformed by equally nice (or better) gassers that can be had < $50k, today.  Hopefully that will change real soon.
> 
> That said, I also fear what this means for those of us who love a roaring big-displacement engine, when the rest of the world has gone silent. Noise ordinances? Bans on driving ICE’s at certain times or locations? I can see this as a real possibility, having lived long enough to see things come to pass, that our parents would have considered equally unlikely.
> 
> In ten years, my daily driver will be an EV with a <2.5 second 0-60 time, but I’ll also have a 427 s/c that comes out to play on sunny days.  Hopefully the neighbors don’t mind the noise.


Likewise, I've had my share of fast and loud cars and motorcycles and love that sound.  
The newer geekier version of me though really loves the incredible acceleration and efficiency that an EV offers and I now find that the whine of EV electronics and motors get's me stirred up.  

Flip side though: a guy farther out of town than us has open pipes on a diesel truck and seems to relish making as much noise as he can on his way to work at 7:00 am everyday.  The sound is not pleasant.  I really hate that guy.


----------



## lsucet

Ashful said:


> In ten years, my daily driver will be an EV with a <2.5 second 0-60 time, but I’ll also have a 427 s/c that comes out to play on sunny days. Hopefully the neighbors don’t mind the noise.


You don't need to wait 10 years from now. Just get a Tesla roadster and you have way better time 0-60 than 2.5 second.


----------



## Ashful

gregbesia said:


> Looks like Tesla lowered it’s cars price a bit. Model3 is now 35K to 56K for performance. You can even get some money back when doing your taxes. (I know it does not apply to Ashful because he doesn’t believe a government should subsidize any industry )



That’s great news. The appropriately optioned sport was about $65k this time a year ago. And I appreciate the call out, but you are taking my sentiment to an extreme level, I don’t think I ever said (or meant to say) I am 100% against all temporary subsidies, to get new tech off the ground and society pointed in a beneficial new direction. But I am not in favor of permanent subsidies, which create a false economy, technical solutions must ultimately stand on their own.


----------



## Ashful

lsucet said:


> You don't need to wait 10 years from now. Just get a Tesla roadster and you have way better time 0-60 than 2.5 second.


Yeah, that is one impressive spec. But you got $200,000 - $250,000 to plunk down on something that ugly? Be my guest. Too sterile for me.  My car budget is about one-third that amount, anyway.


----------



## lsucet

Ashful said:


> Yeah, that is one impressive spec. But you got $200,000 - $250,000 to plunk down on something that ugly? Be my guest. Too sterile for me.  My car budget is about one-third that amount, anyway.


We all have different likes and dislikes plus what it is affordable. Very important point the last one. Anyway there is many other car options that include comfort, luxury,  technology, AWD etc and power. Many, with muscle cars, by the time they finish with all the updates/upgrades, they are well over in cost than a initial price of any all around cars and all what they have is just that a muscle car. Everything comes down what you like more than what you can afford sometimes.


----------



## begreen

Ashful said:


> n ten years, my daily driver will be an EV with a <2.5 second 0-60 time, but I’ll also have a 427 s/c that comes out to play on sunny days. Hopefully the neighbors don’t mind the noise.


Hyper performance in a car is hardly an important qualifier. It has little use in daily driving and can be a liability. Most folks want to get safely and reliably from point a to b. They are not looking to break their necks going for groceries, picking up the kids, or commuting to and from work on 40-50 mph roads. Many folks appreciate a quiet neighborhood too.


----------



## Marshy

begreen said:


> I'm not sure how effective resistance heat will be at those damning temps. That's when you want a woodstove in the car.  I'd rather have an efficient heat pump for most heating with a simple resistance heat backup. That would be ideal for our climate.


All these problems could be solved a lot easier than we think. Plus, a gasification system is considered carbon neutral.


----------



## SpaceBus

Marshy said:


> All these problems could be solved a lot easier than we think. Plus, a gasification system is considered carbon neutral.
> View attachment 249387


Somewhere in Russia....


----------



## jerrieric

Yeah carbon-neutral because he get your electricity from a coal-fired electric plant probably. I had a hybrid that got 43 miles a gallon I was happy with it. When I looked at an all-electric car and computer to how much I would save on gas I found out it would actually cost me the same or more per mile for gas. Like anything it's all marketing scam.


----------



## DBoon

jerrieric said:


> carbon-neutral because he get your electricity from a coal-fired electric plant probably.


Except many of us don't - we have a way cleaner grid in NY than most other states with <1% coal generation and overnight (off peak) close to 80% nuclear, hydro and wind. That's not counting those of us with solar PV panels that provide enough electricity for 100% of our driving needs.



jerrieric said:


> When I looked at an all-electric car and computer to how much I would save on gas I found out it would actually cost me the same or more per mile for gas.


Then you did the math wrong. I used to drive a Chevy Sonic and reliably got 45 miles per gallon with gas priced at ~$2.70/gal (6 cents/mile). Electricity in NY state at 12 cents/kWh (NYSEG - 10 cents/kWh off-peak) at my average efficiency of 4.5 miles/kWh  with my Chevy Bolt costs  me 2 cents/mile or less. So I drove a super efficient gas car and my electric car is 1/3 the per mile cost. That is not counting the savings in maintenance, which many articles have estimated to be ~$1500/year savings over a gas car. So your hybrid is good at 43 miles/gallon, but a pure EV is cheaper to run. Sure, an EV costs more to purchase, but my savings per year will zero out the difference after about 5 years of driving (35,000 miles per year). 



jerrieric said:


> Like anything it's all marketing scam.


Except its not - see above.


----------



## Ashful

DBoon said:


> Then you did the math wrong. I used to drive a Chevy Sonic and reliably got 45 miles per gallon with gas priced at ~$2.70/gal (6 cents/mile). Electricity in NY state at 12 cents/kWh (NYSEG - 10 cents/kWh off-peak) at my average efficiency of 4.5 miles/kWh  with my Chevy Bolt costs  me 2 cents/mile or less.


Your electric is much cheaper than most, I suspect.  Certainly cheaper than it is here, and I saw one recent post as high as $.32/kWh.  Your conclusion likely still holds for the majority of us, but likely not for everyone, or by nearly the same amount.

Are you sure you're using your all-in price, as in how many dollars you actually paid for how many kWh you actually used, and not just the generation fee?  Usually taxes and delivery at roughly double the generation rate.


----------



## SpaceBus

DBoon said:


> Except many of us don't - we have a way cleaner grid in NY than most other states with <1% coal generation and overnight (off peak) close to 80% nuclear, hydro and wind. That's not counting those of us with solar PV panels that provide enough electricity for 100% of our driving needs.
> 
> 
> Then you did the math wrong. I used to drive a Chevy Sonic and reliably got 45 miles per gallon with gas priced at ~$2.70/gal (6 cents/mile). Electricity in NY state at 12 cents/kWh (NYSEG - 10 cents/kWh off-peak) at my average efficiency of 4.5 miles/kWh  with my Chevy Bolt costs  me 2 cents/mile or less. So I drove a super efficient gas car and my electric car is 1/3 the per mile cost. That is not counting the savings in maintenance, which many articles have estimated to be ~$1500/year savings over a gas car. So your hybrid is good at 43 miles/gallon, but a pure EV is cheaper to run. Sure, an EV costs more to purchase, but my savings per year will zero out the difference after about 5 years of driving (35,000 miles per year).
> 
> 
> Except its not - see above.



Electricy is crazy expensive in Maine since nobody lives here. It's above $0.30/KWhr in some places.

Edit: I think he might even get his power from Bangor Hydro, which definitely isn't coal.

Double edit: I just went back and looked at some bills and the rate fluxuates significantly. For two people with 40 gal electric water heater our monthly bill is usually $125-150. In the winter it goes up since my wife is part fish and lives in the tub. Last winter I figured that it even costs me $0.55/hr to run my electric glass top range.


----------



## SpaceBus

Actually Maine uses less than %5 combined power from petroleum, coal, and solar. Probably another reason it is so expensive. 





__





						U.S. Energy Information Administration - EIA - Independent Statistics and Analysis
					






					www.eia.gov


----------



## DBoon

Ashful said:


> Are you sure you're using your all-in price, as in how many dollars you actually paid for how many kWh you actually used, and not just the generation fee?


Yes, that's the all-in price here in NYSEG service territory in Central NY for generation, distribution and taxes, and I am buying a 100% solar and wind generated electricity. That does not include the fixed-rate fee (which should not be included in the per kWh price of electricity for purposes of the comparison stated earlier). It varies a little around that based on time of year, but that is basically the rate. 

At a downstate NY condo, I pay 10 cents/kWh all-in for off-peak electricity - also NYSEG territory. That is even less costly. I do 100% of my charging there off-peak. 

If you paid Con Ed's rates in NY City (arguably some of the highest in the country) 
https://www.coned.com/en/save-money/energy-saving-programs/time-of-use 
I could see paying 32 cents/kWh for generation and distribution (again, not including fixed monthly fee). But that is only during the peak summer months and only if you are on a peak/off-peak rate structure ("time of use") which then provides a substantial discount for off-peak (nighttime) use - half the daytime rate (all-in). So again, the rate is a lot less than what is commonly described, especially if you are charging during off-peak times. 

My point is that if you want to believe that EVs are more expensive to fuel, then you can believe that. But you are just wrong. When someone who drives a car that gets 45 mpg replaces it with an EV, pays what I would consider to be an "average" price for electricity in the US, and spends 1/3 the previous amount on fuel, then EVs are not  more expensive to fuel. Given that the average driver in the US drives a car that gets considerably less than 45 mpg, the average driver would save a lot more than 3x on fuel costs. 

If your electricity price is 20 cents/kWh, then you save less, but you still save compared to gas. And if you drive a car with 30 mpg efficiency, you would save 3x on fuel with an EV compared to your 30 mpg gas car.  

I will accept the argument that EVs cost more to purchase initially and that not everyone can afford them - fine with that. If you can pay it once up front, you will save additional money every year and the cost will net zero over the life of the car (at least in the case of my Chevy Bolt, but not for a $60k Tesla).


----------



## Ashful

We agree on the conclusion, @DBoon, the EV is almost always going to be cheaper to fuel. We just don’t agree on the exact numbers, I can give specific examples where your 3x minimum estimate is a gross overstatement.

On a somewhat related tangent, I was recently looking at Volvo V60 wagons. Their R-design sport edition or luxury edition both ran $46k, but the plug in hybrid skips up 46% to $63k. That’s a lot better than the MSRP = $68k they had them at just a few weeks ago, but still... +46% for hybrid! You’re going to have to drive an awful lot of miles to earn back that $17,000 differential in the costs.

Likewise, you can buy many cars that will outperform a Model 3 dual motor on most performance characteristics, with a nicer interior to boot, for $15,000 less than the Tesla. Even at your optimistic differential costs, higher-end EV’s have not yet reached the point of financial justification, based on their fuel savings costs alone.  That may also be true for more budget-conscious EV’s as well, I wouldn’t know.


----------



## DBoon

Ashful said:


> I can give specific examples where your 3x minimum estimate is a gross overstatement.


Hi Ashful, I gave my specific examples - please provide your specific examples. I'm willing to debate facts, and all I ask is that you offer your own for debate. I never called my 1/3 fuel cost a minimum, I just gave my real example and my belief that is was typical of what could be had. 



Ashful said:


> On a somewhat related tangent, I was recently looking at Volvo V60 wagons. Their R-design sport edition or luxury edition both ran $46k, but the plug in hybrid skips up 46% to $63k. That’s a lot better than the MSRP = $68k they had them at just a few weeks ago, but still... +46% for hybrid! You’re going to have to drive an awful lot of miles to earn back that $17,000 differential in the costs.


I made no statements about the relative financial merits of hybrid vs. non-hybrid vehicles, so I'll just assume that this just belongs in another thread. But in that thread, my view of hybrids is that they are the most soul-sucking driving experience available, offering none of the fun of a stick-shift gas car or the brutally raw low-speed torque or efficiency of an EV. The Prius, for example, has to be one of the most dispiriting drives available. I wonder why anyone would tolerate this experience. 



Ashful said:


> Likewise, you can buy many cars that will outperform a Model 3 dual motor on most performance characteristics, with a nicer interior to boot, for $15,000 less than the Tesla.


I hadn't realized that I was defending a Tesla's performance characteristics, list price, or its interior merits relative to other cars in its class. I thought I was just challenging the math of a previous poster who said that EVs didn't cost less to run and were all just a marketing scam. 



Ashful said:


> Even at your optimistic differential costs


I posted my math - why not post yours? Mine is based on my real-life experiences, not a hypothetical worst-case scenario. 
A 12 cent/kWh electricity rate is pretty average for the US (see https://www.electricchoice.com/electricity-prices-by-state/). 
A 45 mpg achieved efficiency for an gasoline car is pretty far above the average - about 20 mpg above the average (see https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...my-rises-to-record-24-7-mpg-epa-idUSKBN1F02BX). 
So it is hard to see how my real-life experience is an optimistic differential in terms of fuel costs. In my scenario, I pay 1/3 to fuel an EV to travel a mile versus a gas car. 

Sure, we can equivocate about maintenance costs. I do know that I won't be paying $60 for a synthetic oil change every 5000 miles (that is $420/year at my rate of 35,000 miles per year), I won't be paying for brake pads, calipers, etc. probably ever. I'll never need a new muffler system ($300-400) or catalytic converter ($800-1000) or spark plugs. The list goes on. I'll need a new set of $600 tires every 50,000 miles or so, I'll need to rotate the tires every 8,000 miles or so - all things that a gas car needs as well. It's not hard to imagine a $1000 reduction in basic maintenance per year for an EV compared to a gas car, based on 35,000 miles of driving per year and based on a 5-6 year vehicle life (I've routinely put 200,000+ miles on my gas cars). 

So, $1,400 a year in fuel costs plus $1,000 in maintenance costs per year = $14,400 in savings over a six year period. If I bought my Chevy Bolt with the same level of trim as my Sonic, I would have paid about $38k all-in (before incentives). Four years ago, I paid about $20k for my Sonic (on sale). I'm driving a nicer car with better performance and at near zero additional cost over the lifetime of the car. OK, I'm calling $3,600 "near zero", but it is not a massive amount of extra money considering the performance difference between the two cars. 



Ashful said:


> higher-end EV’s have not yet reached the point of financial justification, based on their fuel savings costs alone


The debate in the original post was not about a higher-end EV having a lower total ownership cost based on fuel costs alone. Higher-end anything (cars, appliances, whatever) are as much about the vanity and brand-consciousness of those purchasing the higher-end thing and likely not about any real tangible or intangible benefit they provide. There are several lower-cost pure EVs on the market, and more are coming. 

The debate was about whether an EV cost more per mile to fuel than an efficient electric car (the poster described a hybrid that got a respectable 43 mpg). It is clear - an EV never costs more to fuel compared to a gas car, probably typically costs 1/3 as much, and could cost even less than a 1/3 depending on what gas car you drove before. In the most extreme example I can think of (NY City northern suburbs)  - 25 cents/kWh electricity (for generation and delivery, not including fixed monthly fees) with 4 miles/kWh (6.25 cents/mile) for an EV and a Prius driven gingerly (50 mpg) and $3.00  gas (6 cents/mile), the two are a wash. But if you charged overnight on an off-peak rate, your EV cost/mile would drop to 3 cents/mile. 

So show me your real examples. I'm willing to listen to facts, but not to hypotheticals or incorrect math.


----------



## begreen

Volvo has been discussing their new electric SUVs today. 








						Volvo unveils the XC40 EV, its first full-electric vehicle | Engadget
					

Not to be outdone by its electrified-performance sibling Polestar, Volvo today unveiled its all-wheel-drive (AWD) XC40 Recharge pure EV at an event in Los Angeles.




					www.engadget.com


----------



## SpaceBus

begreen said:


> Volvo has been discussing their new electric SUVs today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Volvo unveils the XC40 EV, its first full-electric vehicle | Engadget
> 
> 
> Not to be outdone by its electrified-performance sibling Polestar, Volvo today unveiled its all-wheel-drive (AWD) XC40 Recharge pure EV at an event in Los Angeles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.engadget.com



This is something that could end up I  our stable!


----------



## Ashful

DBoon said:


> Hi Ashful, I gave my specific examples - please provide your specific examples.


No problem. I can post some numbers tonight, it will be just re-running your math with the $.30/kWh rates a few others here have posted, along with their local gasoline prices. Again, I’m not disagreeing with your conclusion, the EV will almost alway be cheaper to fuel, I think I’ve been consistent in saying that.  I’m just stating that very few are getting your $.10 - $.12 / kWh rates, and simultaneously paying the same as you for gas. That is all.



DBoon said:


> If your electricity price is 20 cents/kWh, then you save less, but you still save compared to gas


What is amusing here is that, while you’re too busy arguing to listen to what I’m saying, I’ve been sitting here agreeing with what you said, all along:


Ashful said:


> We agree on the conclusion, @DBoon, the EV is almost always going to be cheaper to fuel. We just don’t agree on the exact numbers





DBoon said:


> I never called my 1/3 fuel cost a minimum, I just gave my real example and my belief that is was typical of what could be had.



You are correct, I apologize. What you said was:



DBoon said:


> the average driver would save a lot more than 3x on fuel costs.





DBoon said:


> I made no statements about the relative financial merits of hybrid vs. non-hybrid vehicles, so I'll just assume that this just belongs in another thread.


You seem to assume when I say “on a somewhat related tangent”, that I’m still responding to you. Let me make it clearer for you:









DBoon said:


> my view of hybrids is that they are the most soul-sucking driving experience available, offering none of the fun of a stick-shift gas car or the brutally raw low-speed torque or efficiency of an EV.


Actually, the Volvo I referenced makes 415 hp in hybrid, their best ICE in that model is only 250 hp. I’d take 415 hp in a small sports wagon over your Chevy Bolt, ten times out of ten.



DBoon said:


> Sure, we can equivocate about maintenance costs. I do know that I won't be paying $60 for a synthetic oil change every 5000 miles (that is $420/year at my rate of 35,000 miles per year), I won't be paying for brake pads, calipers, etc. probably ever. I'll never need a new muffler system ($300-400) or catalytic converter ($800-1000) or spark plugs. The list goes on. I'll need a new set of $600 tires every 50,000 miles or so, I'll need to rotate the tires every 8,000 miles or so - all things that a gas car needs as well. It's not hard to imagine a $1000 reduction in basic maintenance per year for an EV compared to a gas car, based on 35,000 miles of driving per year and based on a 5-6 year vehicle life (I've routinely put 200,000+ miles on my gas cars).
> 
> So, $1,400 a year in fuel costs plus $1,000 in maintenance costs per year = $14,400 in savings over a six year period.


All excellent points. Your figures may be a little optimistic (eg. I haven’t had to replace a catalytic converter or muffler on any car I’ve owned made in the last 25 years), but I agree with your overall point.



DBoon said:


> The debate in the original post was not about a higher-end EV having a lower total ownership cost based on fuel costs alone. ...The debate was about whether an EV cost more per mile to fuel than an efficient electric car (the poster described a hybrid that got a respectable 43 mpg).


Holy crap. The thread is about jebatty’s Tesla Model 3 dual motor EV, not your Chevy Bolt. Yes, it IS about a “higher-end EV”, and the associated cost of ownership.



DBoon said:


> It is clear - an EV never costs more to fuel compared to a gas car, probably typically costs 1/3 as much, and could cost even less than a 1/3 depending on what gas car you drove before.


Agreed. I was only pointing out that this is not ALWAYS the case for EVERY potential owner.  Chill out man, and maybe read twice before jumping to the wrong conclusions about what you _think_ others are saying.


----------



## begreen

Looks like most of the country has electrical rates <$.015/kWh. Very few are in the $0.30 range.


----------



## Ashful

I suspect that graph must be generation only? I’m 8 cents “price to compare”, but the check I mail every month amounts to more like 19.5 cents per kWh.


----------



## begreen

That is a tougher one to nail down. The graphic lists us at <$0.09 but after all the trimmings it's more like $0.11. It's also a tiered rate so when consumption is lower, the rate is better.


----------



## Ashful

One good argument @DBoon has been making, I think, is that any fixed portion of the bill should not be used in this particular comparison. You’re paying it anyway, whether you own an EV or not. So, while it’s part of your bill, it’s not part of figuring the differential cost of fueling an EV.

That said, any part of the bill that’s proportional to usage, including a variable rate that goes up with usage, must be considered.


----------



## begreen

I have never bought a car strictly based on economics, except when I was young and buying used. There are a lot of factors that go into a purchase that are outside of cost. jebatty is experiencing many of the pleasures that come with the Tesla 3 that are intrinsic to the car.  We have some of that pleasure with the Volt too. Having just finished a nice trip in it I was reminded about how nice a road car it is. We were in 40+ mph gusts off the coast and never felt them. It was only when I saw the truck in front of me swaying that I was reminded of the wind. My back is fussy. I can be in a luxury car and after an hour my back will start to ache if the seats are too plush.  The Volt's seats are on the firm side which is great for me.  A car's ergonomics, looks, performance, comfort, cruising silence, serviceability, etc. are all factors that don't necessarily show on the window sticker.


----------



## Ashful

begreen said:


> I have never bought a car strictly based on economics, except when I was young and buying used. There are a lot of factors that go into a purchase that are outside of cost.


True 'dat.  Each of my motor vehicles have been among the least advantageous economic decisions in my life... but they're a heck of a lot of fun!

Here's an interesting thought exercise.  The Tesla Model X Performance costs $108,490 cash deal without autodrive, without any interior upgrades, without any exterior upgrades, just the bare bones Model X Performance.  I cannot find any direct numbers on the energy consumption of this particular model, but it is compared (wikipedia) to the P90D and P100D at 0.21 to 0.38 kWh/mi combined.  Competing ICE vehicles cost variably $40k - $60k (Jaguar XF Sportbrake, Volvo V60 R-Design, BMW 328i X-drive, Mercedes E-class Wagon TT, Buick Regal Tour-X), all day every day.  At 20k mi per year with $.14/kWh, what is the time to amortize the extra $30k - $50k cost of the Tesla, over the luxury class ICE sport wagons?

On a side note (that's like a "tangent", @DBoon), I see that Tesla does NOT show you the actual price of the product you're buying.  First they show the price "with potential savings".  Then, even if you turn that option off, requesting the real "purchase price", they include a $4500 discount for financing it thru Tesla.  You have to really hunt to find the cash price of their cars, as a basis for comparison to other cars, their site appears to make every attempt to hide this number.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

Bad press GM and poor MPG  killed the hummer in 2010. Perhaps electric can bring it back .








						Hummer may return as electric truck brand, report says
					

Is Hummer returning from the dead with a jolt of electricity?




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## Seasoned Oak

Tesla on the minds of the big 3. 








						Ford hopes 'Mustang-inspired' SUV will shock Tesla, electric vehicle world
					

Ford's electric SUV, inspired by its Mustang sports car, gets its worldwide debut on Nov. 17 ahead of the Los Angeles Auto Show



					www.usatoday.com


----------



## Ashful

Seasoned Oak said:


> Bad press GM and poor MPG killed the hummer in 2010. Perhaps electric can bring it back .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hummer may return as electric truck brand, report says
> 
> 
> Is Hummer returning from the dead with a jolt of electricity?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxnews.com



There is one up-side of bringing the Hummer back, they make it real easy to spot and avoid assholes on the road.


----------



## begreen

Seasoned Oak said:


> Tesla on the minds of the big 3.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ford hopes 'Mustang-inspired' SUV will shock Tesla, electric vehicle world
> 
> 
> Ford's electric SUV, inspired by its Mustang sports car, gets its worldwide debut on Nov. 17 ahead of the Los Angeles Auto Show
> 
> 
> 
> www.usatoday.com


Profit is on their minds. SUVs and trucks make the bulk of their sales. This is where the most profit is. The Model X is an easy target. It's quirky, awkward, overpriced, only a 4 seater and not really much of an SUV. The Jaguar iPace and Audi eTron are better SUVs and one doesn't need to be a technotwit to drive one.


----------



## gregbesia

begreen said:


> Profit is on their minds. SUVs and trucks make the bulk of their sales. This is where the most profit is. The Model X is an easy target. It's quirky, awkward, overpriced, only a 4 seater and not really much of an SUV. The Jaguar iPace and Audi eTron are better SUVs and one doesn't need to be a technotwit to drive one.


And yet you can’t really take iPace or eTron on a long trip because there is no fast charge network for them.


----------



## Ashful

begreen said:


> Profit is on their minds. SUVs and trucks make the bulk of their sales. This is where the most profit is. The Model X is an easy target. It's quirky, awkward, overpriced, only a 4 seater and not really much of an SUV. The Jaguar iPace and Audi eTron are better SUVs and one doesn't need to be a technotwit to drive one.



Or a millionaire. At $108k base price, probably closer to $130k typically configured, the Model X ain’t exactly “the people’s car”.


----------



## gregbesia

Ashful said:


> Or a millionaire. At $108k base price, probably closer to $130k typically configured, the Model X ain’t exactly “the people’s car”.
> [/QUOTES
> I must be looking at different website. I see base price for the X at 88K. ( not that it makes a huge difference)


----------



## gregbesia

Just a quick comparison:
Range—      Audi e tron. 204 miles
                        Jaguar I pace 234 miles
                        Tesla X            328 miles 

Another selling point for Tesla X is free unlimited supercharging.


----------



## begreen

gregbesia said:


> And yet you can’t really take iPace or eTron on a long trip because there is no fast charge network for them.


Depends on where and how far you are traveling. There are many Fast DC charging networks and the number is growing.


----------



## Ashful

gregbesia said:


> I must be looking at different website. I see base price for the X at 88K. ( not that it makes a huge difference)


That’s because Tesla has perhaps the most deceptive site and pricing in the entire auto industry. They are showing you the price with a $4500 discount for financing it thru Tesla, PLUS “assumed incentives”, for which many Tesla buyers will not qualify. If you turn off the “assumed incentives” it will show $104k, and then if you read the fine print at the bottom of the page you’ll see the $4500 discount for financing. The cash price is $108k, and that’s the number you should be comparing to other vehicles, as any manufacturer will give a ~$5k discount for financing.

Now, whereas I know I can buy almost any other car with MSRP = $108k for under $100k, I am not sure how Tesla plays the “dealer invoice” game, or if I can expect the same discount.  It doesn’t really matter, you have to have very little interest in your money to spend that amount for I see as an upper mid-level crossover.  Heck, it’s within a few percent of Porsche Panamera or Mercedes AMG pricing!


----------



## gregbesia

Ashful said:


> That’s because Tesla has perhaps the most deceptive site and pricing in the entire auto industry. They are showing you the price with a $4500 discount for financing it thru Tesla, PLUS “assumed incentives”, for which many Tesla buyers will not qualify. If you turn off the “assumed incentives” it will show $104k, and then if you read the fine print at the bottom of the page you’ll see the $4500 discount for financing. The cash price is $108k, and that’s the number you should be comparing to other vehicles, as any manufacturer will give a ~$5k discount for financing.
> 
> Now, whereas I know I can buy almost any other car with MSRP = $108k for under $100k, I am not sure how Tesla plays the “dealer invoice” game, or if I can expect the same discount.  It doesn’t really matter, you have to have very little interest in your money to spend that amount for I see as an upper mid-level crossover.  Heck, it’s within a few percent of Porsche Panamera or Mercedes AMG pricing!


Strange. I have a different internet!! LOL. What I see is cash price of 88 K for base. 105K for performance. Before any incentives.


----------



## Ashful

gregbesia said:


> Strange. I have a different internet!! LOL. What I see is cash price of 88 K for base. 105K for performance. Before any incentives.



Yes, I stated that in my original post:



Ashful said:


> The Tesla Model X Performance costs $108,490 cash deal without autodrive, without any interior upgrades, without any exterior upgrades, just the bare bones Model X Performance.


The non-Performance model isn’t even a option, IMO, when comparing to other cars in the same price range.  And it’s not $105 for the Performance either, that price includes $4500 discount for financing thru Tesla, unless they’ve changed the price in the last 10 days.


----------



## begreen

Ashful said:


> That’s because Tesla has perhaps the most deceptive site and pricing in the entire auto industry.


 I have to agree. Their marketing was a total turnoff for me. The incentives and savings are relative. They don't apply to everyone due to different financial and charging circumstances.


----------



## Ashful

begreen said:


> I have to agree. Their marketing was a total turnoff for me. The incentives and savings are relative. They don't apply to everyone due to different financial and charging circumstances.


That's because you're a critical thinker!  Unfortunately this sort of glossing over the numbers works for most folks.


----------



## begreen

Maybe. My wife would probably say  I am more of a critical stinker.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

Looks like they are trying to mimic the tesla center screen. Not very mustangish looking!









						The Mustang Mach-E is fast, nimble, smooth. Is this the electric vehicle America has been waiting for?
					

Can the Mustang lead a second automotive revolution? Based on a brief ride and what I’ve seen of the Mach-E, you’d be a fool to bet against it.



					www.usatoday.com


----------



## begreen

Overall I like the Mach-E with 2 exceptions: the bulbous nose "pseudo-grille" and the tacked-on look of the LCD panels for both the speedo instrument panel and in particular the honking center panel. Unfortunately, Tesla started a trend with the big center panel and now other car mfgs. are copying it. They look like an afterthought. Even the new Subaru has this, though it is better integrated into the interior design  than the Ford or Tesla. Secondly, I adamantly do not like climate controls on a touch panel. The best designs for climate controls are sensibly arranged so that one can quickly locate critical features like defrosting - without taking one's eyes off the road! Tactile cues for the location of controls are great. Some cars even put a raised dot or other cues on key switches to aid the driver. One should not have to take eyes off the road in dense, rush-hour traffic at 65mph during a rainstorm, to figure out how to turn on the defroster as the windshield starts fogging up.


----------



## woodgeek

Bottom line is that the center panel is CHEAP and VERSATILE as controls get more complex.  And people are already able to navigate touch screens.  So they are probably here to stay.  Blame Steve Jobs (and XEROX), it was just a matter of time.

I am dreaming of my next EV.... I like my 2015 Volt and the price is right (did 11k miles in my first year, just ended).  So I am dreaming of the Mustang MachE or a Model Y at the same price point (the Ford will have $7500 rebates, the Tesla not).


----------



## Ashful

Modern history has set very low expectations for all aspects of the Ford offering.  Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised, but right now I anticipate it not fully living up to the hype.


----------



## jatoxico

Ashful said:


> If comparing to a Hellcat, just forget it. There’s just no arguing with 707 HP.






Teslas' is pretty quick


----------



## lsucet

jatoxico said:


> Teslas' is pretty quick



That's what I always understood and there is different/multiple videos saying so.


----------



## Where2

jatoxico said:


> Teslas' is pretty quick



The lead into that video is why I don't bother to try to buy a vehicle to impress anyone. The NHRA track they used (PBIR) isn't far from my house, and on any given day it's not surprising to to be sitting in traffic next to any one of those exotic cars, especially "in season". 

Having an EV, it's impressive to listen to their engines sing when the traffic lights change, but I really don't miss buying gas. 

As for center touch panels being cheap and versatile, I'm finding it quite distracting fiddling with the icon driven touch screen while driving. Oh to have the eyes of a twenty-something year old with flexible lenses that easily focused on something at arms length and then back on the road again...


----------



## begreen

woodgeek said:


> Bottom line is that the center panel is CHEAP and VERSATILE as controls get more complex.  And people are already able to navigate touch screens.  So they are probably here to stay.  Blame Steve Jobs (and XEROX), it was just a matter of time.
> 
> I am dreaming of my next EV.... I like my 2015 Volt and the price is right (did 11k miles in my first year, just ended).  So I am dreaming of the Mustang MachE or a Model Y at the same price point (the Ford will have $7500 rebates, the Tesla not).


Might be ok for an autonomous vehicle, but this is not ok for a human interface. Eyes belong on the road in critical traffic situations.


----------



## Ashful

jatoxico said:


> Teslas' is pretty quick



They are pretty quick, yes.  But keep in mind I was comparing a $52k SRT 392 and a $63k Hellcat to a $65k Model 3 dual motor, there was no mention of $100k cars.  

The P100D is well over $100,000, typically configured, and there are gassers at that price point and below that will beat it in the 1/4 mile, as well.  Heck, the Demon beats it all day long, and at just $85k!

That is my underlying issue with Tesla, nice cars, but absurd pricing.  Thankfully for them, they’ve found a market.


----------



## jebatty

I found the touchscreen on the Model 3 to be distracting at first, but as I got used to it and learned where the control touches were, I find it very easy for the commonly used controls. For controls not so common, having a 2nd pair of eyes in the passenger seat are helpful. But it was the same for me with other cars and manual controls. Still needed time to learn where they were and how they worked. So in the end, not much different between the touchscreen and manual controls.


----------



## jatoxico

Ashful said:


> They are pretty quick, yes.  But keep in mind I was comparing a $52k SRT 392 and a $63k Hellcat to a $65k Model 3 dual motor, there was no mention of $100k cars.
> 
> The P100D is well over $100,000, typically configured, and there are gassers at that price point and below that will beat it in the 1/4 mile, as well.  Heck, the Demon beats it all day long, and at just $85k!
> 
> That is my underlying issue with Tesla, nice cars, but absurd pricing.  Thankfully for them, they’ve found a market.



There are videos of the Model 3 against and walking on Hellcat's as well. Whether or not they're absolutely fair or biased comparisons I don't know but I never got the idea that the problem with Tesla's was performance.

I'm not ready for an EV because even though they might satisfy 80-90% of my driving scenarios they don't yet satisfy 100%.


----------



## jebatty

I've never yet had a vehicle that alone satisfied 100% of my driving scenarios. Maybe a hammer comes close to satisfying 100% of the scenario of pounding nails.It's terrible at most other things.


----------



## Ashful

jatoxico said:


> There are videos of the Model 3 against and walking on Hellcat's as well. Whether or not they're absolutely fair or biased comparisons I don't know but I never got the idea that the problem with Tesla's was performance.
> 
> I'm not ready for an EV because even though they might satisfy 80-90% of my driving scenarios they don't yet satisfy 100%.



I agree with jebatty, there. The reason I have three cars is that no one of them satisfies 100% of my driving scenarios.

You’d need a mighty poor reaction time or a bad launch to let a model 3 beat you on the track in a Hellcat.  But I feel you are correct in saying performance isn’t a strike against them, they’re plenty good enough in that regard, for what they are.

With time, the cost of the EV’s will hopefully trend toward the ICE’s, or perhaps the other way ‘round.  It will be tough to convince some people to transition before then, as people talk about moral ideals, but almost always vote with their wallet.  I have driven both the model S and model 3, and feel both are vastly overpriced for what you get, other than the feeling of moral superiority. Likewise, I was just looking at a Volvo V60 Polestar edition, which is an impressive little 415 hp small sports wagon... but at nearly double the cost of the gasser, I’ll be sticking with petrol for now.


----------



## jatoxico

Ashful said:


> The reason I have three cars is that no one of them satisfies 100% of my driving scenarios.



My and many other peoples lives have evolved around ICE vehicles so I know they can do what I need. When it comes to EV's I'm not sure. What's the real range gonna be 5-6 yrs down the road when the batteries are getting tired, on the road in heavy traffic, when its 20 and you need the heat or 95 ac cranking, radio playing, charging (her) phone, using nav etc?  I can tell you I don't want to sit around waiting 25 min for my car to charge every 150-180 mi even if I can find a supercharger.

One thing they do seem to do well with is cost of ownership. As a pure commuter I could have one as long as nothing unexpected comes up.


----------



## Ashful

jatoxico said:


> My and many other peoples lives have evolved around ICE vehicles so I know they can do what I need. When it comes to EV's I'm not sure. What's the real range gonna be 5-6 yrs down the road when the batteries are getting tired, on the road in heavy traffic, when its 20 and you need the heat or 95 ac cranking, radio playing, charging (her) phone, using nav etc?  I can tell you I don't want to sit around waiting 25 min for my car to charge every 150-180 mi even if I can find a supercharger.
> 
> One thing they do seem to do well with is cost of ownership. As a pure commuter I could have one as long as nothing unexpected comes up.


I think others here (woodgeek, jebatty) have and can already offer some pretty clear and real-life responses to that.  I really have no concern that an EV could easily satisfy my or my wife's daily requirements, which range from 15 to 90 miles per day, depending on the day of the week.  I even have no concern they'd be suitable for family trips, which at most might include as much as 4 hours' drive.

I really don't think there are many legitimate arguments left to be made against EV's, based on their performance, capability, or range.  Most of these problems have been solved.  The legitimate issues remaining are:

1.  Cost.  You will pay at LEAST 25% more for the same features and performance in a luxury or sport EV, versus an ICE.  In some cases, you may pay nearly double for the EV, over a legitimately-competing performance or luxury ICE.

2.  Resale.  Let's face it, with the technology still improving every year, EV's are  going to depreciate much faster than ICE's have historically depreciated.  Of course, with shifting social pressures and morals working against the reducing availability of ICE's over the next decade, there's no predicting what the resale of a 2019 ICE will be in 2029, either.

3.  Dealership network.  I pass three dealerships with a wide range of ICE's every day in my travels, but I do not come anywhere near any dealerships of any EV's I'd be willing to drive.  My closest Tesla dealer is 80 minutes round-trip from my house, and not in the direction of my daily travels.


----------



## jatoxico

Ashful said:


> I really don't think there are many legitimate arguments left to be made against EV's, based on their performance, capability, or range.



Range is a problem in my mind. Not for my daily commute but Tesla owner's are reporting something like >40% reduction in range in cold weather.


----------



## begreen

Cold weather, steep mountains and heavy loads take their toll on battery range.


----------



## Ashful

jatoxico said:


> Range is a problem in my mind. Not for my daily commute but Tesla owner's are reporting something like >40% reduction in range in cold weather.


I believe you, but for me, range wouldn't be much of an issue.  The cheaper "standard range" model 3 is rated at 250 miles, and the "extended range" model 3 is rated a 322 miles.  Your 40% reduction would take those numbers down to 150 or 195 miles, respectively... during the months when I'm not apt to take a long road trip anyway.  If I own a car for 10 years, I may only do 3 -4 trips of > 250 miles in a single leg, and perhaps only 1-2 trips of > 322 miles in a single leg.  When I do those trips, it's more likely than not I'd be hauling a trailer, and using my truck, anyway.  If it's a family road trip without the boat or other trailer (and then I'd wonder why I'm not just flying to my destination...), I'd be happy to take my ICE if I still have it, or even take the chance to rent a comfortable full-size SUV for that once in a lifetime family road trip.

I can imagine a lot of scenarios where an EV might come up short, but if I'm honest with myself, very few of those imagined scenarios are likely to occur in my life.

_edit:  More honesty... I just checked, and in the 12 years we have owned our present family car, our longest trip has been only 175 miles each way... to a resort hotel that has multiple Tesla charging stations.  That's well within the range of even the standard model 3, and if we're headed any place much farther than that, I'll fly!_


----------



## jebatty

EV range is an elusive number. Stated maximum range is based on a set of assumed "average" conditions, and I have not seen any specs which state what these conditions are. A few actaul conditions affecting range are: speed and time driving at various speeds as in highway travel; variations and frequency of variations in speed as in stop and go driving; moderate or aggressive driving habits, terrain as in level, hilly or mountainous areas; wind direction and speed, ambient air temperature, need for heat or a/c, number of passengers and weight in the car.

For where I live in northern MN and where I need to drive, and usually both my wife and myself in the Tesla, I'm still learning at what "range" the Tesla actually has. Things which have a big impact for us are vehicle speed, wind velocity, and temperature. Neither my wife nor I are aggressive drivers, although we both enjoy the acceleration experience of the Tesla. And the terrain is pretty flat for most of our driving area.

Our typical long trip destination is 185 miles one way. This so far has been no issue with our Tesla in Spring, Summer and Fall driving, and we would finish this trip with about 110 miles +/- of range remaining. Total range about 295 miles. Our driving would be at posted speed limits, up to 70 mph.

But when we drove this the day before Thanksgiving a few days ago, with strong crosswinds, temperatures in the mid 20'sF, two dogs and luggage in the car, cabin temperature at 66F, and limiting our speed to 65mph, except where traffic flow required us to go faster, it appeared that we would exhaust our range at about 190 miles, so we stopped briefly at a Supercharger a short distance off our route to make sure we would arrive at our destination with sufficient range remaining to make the 10 mile trip to the Supercharger near out destination to get a full charge for the trip home.

This reduced winter range, at about 40%, even if more reduced in more extreme conditions, will not be a problem for us. We can leave home with a full charge, and we have four Tesla Superchargers located along the route to charge as needed.

The reduced range we experienced also was impacted by us installing winter tires on the Tesla. It would not surprise me if the added rolling resistance of those tires resulted in a 5-10% range reduction over the range we would have had with the (summer) tires provided on the Tesla. I'm a firm believer in winter tires for added safety, given our cold, icy and snowy condition in our MN winters.


----------



## jebatty

Ashful said:


> Resale. Let's face it, with the technology still improving every year, EV's are going to depreciate much faster than ICE's have historically depreciated. Of course, with shifting social pressures and morals working against the reducing availability of ICE's over the next decade, there's no predicting what the resale of a 2019 ICE will be in 2029, either.



You may be correct, but Tesla's OTA updates and building cars equipped for subsequent update implementation takes a little steam out of the depreciation scenario. Plus, I think it is a good bet that as batteries wear down, much less expensive and more powerful battery packs will be available at a much lower cost than what is current. Time will tell.

Regardless, I have to admit that I really love living an unfolding future with a very competent EV now rather than waiting for a future version.


----------



## begreen

jebatty said:


> This reduced winter range, at about 40%, even if more reduced in more extreme conditions, will not be a problem for us. We can leave home with a full charge, and we have four Tesla Superchargers located along the route to charge as needed.


That is consistent with what we see in our area for EVs. Range requirements are relative. The east coast is densely packed so a shorter range may be acceptable. Out west there are many places where going to the city may be a 100mi+ round trip. Tesla's supercharging network is it's strength as long as one's trips are between relatively high density population areas. They have done a great job with this.

We just went to Yosemite and I saw many Teslas making the trip. Just getting in and out of the park is about a 100 mile round trip, but lo and behold there is an L2 charging station there.


----------



## begreen

But this is one of the reasons why I still drive a PHEV








						More Teslas on the Road Meant Hours-Long Supercharger Lines Over Thanksgiving
					

The busiest travel weekend of the year was an interesting test for Tesla's fast-charging network.




					www.thedrive.com


----------



## jebatty

Tesla's Supercharger network was a big plus in the success of the S and Model 3, but that success may be ultimately limited by not enough Supercharger network capacity, especially at pinch points. Tesla has adapters for traditional Level 2 chargers, which are OK but at about 25 miles/hour of charging really slow for long distance travel, OK for destination chargers if enough are available at a destination. Level 1 chargers are nearly hopeless. 

Both my son and I (185 miles apart) have installed two circuits to operate Level 2 charging so we both can charge at the same time. Makes visits to each other seamless.


----------



## Ashful

begreen said:


> But this is one of the reasons why I still drive a PHEV
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More Teslas on the Road Meant Hours-Long Supercharger Lines Over Thanksgiving
> 
> 
> The busiest travel weekend of the year was an interesting test for Tesla's fast-charging network.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thedrive.com



Thanks for posting. This could be an issue for families who want to treat their EV as their primary family trip vehicle.

The plug in Hybrid has so many disadvantages, though... all the cost of an EV, if not more, with the added maintenance of an ICE. As mentioned previously, I was looking at a Volvo polestar PHEV, but it takes the cost of their $40k ICE wagon into the mid-$70k’s. How could one possibly justify that level of expense for a few extra mpg’s?


----------



## CaptSpiff

Ashful said:


> .... a Volvo polestar PHEV, but it takes the cost of their $40k ICE wagon into the mid-$70k’s. How could one possibly justify that level of expense for a few extra mpg’s?


It cannot be justified on the basis of mpg. But it can be on a "virtue" or "pride" basis.

One of my co-workers, young and well paid, recently got himself a $2700 laptop from a boutique assembler. Every single day, no matter what is being discussed, he works into the discussion how fast his video card is. He is so proud. No doubt he believes it was worth every penny.


----------



## Ashful

CaptSpiff said:


> It cannot be justified on the basis of mpg. But it can be on a "virtue" or "pride" basis.
> 
> One of my co-workers, young and well paid, recently got himself a $2700 laptop from a boutique assembler. Every single day, no matter what is being discussed, he works into the discussion how fast his video card is. He is so proud. No doubt he believes it was worth every penny.



That’s misplaced virtue, and pride is something I need to work harder to suppress, not inflate.


----------



## StewartKy

jebatty said:


> I'm nearly breathless. About two months ago my wife said she wanted to go fossil carbon free with her car, which would require selling her 2011 Avalon, something I thought she would never do, and then she said that she wanted a Tesla. We looked, found what we wanted, and we delayed delivery for two months to get passed MN winter roads. The delay is over. Picked up the Model 3 today and drove it home. My wife's first new car since her 1977 Toyota Celica.
> 
> First impression -- an amazing car! We got the long range, all-wheel drive model with premium features, including Enhanced Autopilot (EAP) which will be upgraded to full self-driving when available. What's left is learning all the features. Fortunately the basic -- shift into gear and drive -- are easy.
> 
> I got my Chevy Bolt in Feb 2018, which has performed flawlessly for nearly 17,000 miles already. Now it has a feisty Tesla Model 3 to make a pair of BEVs for our household. Every kWh of our solar system will be put to use for our home and fueling two cars.


What were you driving before you got your Bolt?


----------



## begreen

Ashful said:


> Thanks for posting. This could be an issue for families who want to treat their EV as their primary family trip vehicle.
> 
> The plug in Hybrid has so many disadvantages, though... all the cost of an EV, if not more, with the added maintenance of an ICE. As mentioned previously, I was looking at a Volvo polestar PHEV, but it takes the cost of their $40k ICE wagon into the mid-$70k’s. How could one possibly justify that level of expense for a few extra mpg’s?


Our car has been virtually maintenance free. All local - 85% of our driving is electric.


----------



## Ashful

begreen said:


> Our car has been virtually maintenance free. All local - 85% of our driving is electric.



Really? What vehicle? Have you reviewed the recommended maintenance schedule?


----------



## SpaceBus

I like the Polestar vehicles not for any perceived ROI or savings, but for cutting edge technology in a safe, relatively fast, and well appointed vehicle. It's really the driving experience you are buying, nothing less, nothing more. If I wanted to be environmentally friendly there are much better options and none are buying a new car.

I want to stress the safety aspect even though it's not very cool. Until a few years ago I never cared and regularly did foolish things on my motorcycle. I grew up and realized that I want a safe car, but still something fun. Volvo makes it.


----------



## jatoxico

Many good points made above and really great to hear real world experience. Although close, at this stage of my life I don't think I could live w/ an EV as a sole vehicle just yet. Won't bore you with the details but I have enough trips that the potential for reduced range would be problem.

Now if EV's were a bit more affordable so that I could justify having one strictly for commuting to and from work then I would consider. Guessing we're just a few short more years away.

@jebatty have you been in heavy traffic? How does sitting in traffic with heat/ac affect range. Living and especially working where I do, I often find myself stuck in crawling traffic for long (think 30 min or more) stretches.


----------



## DBoon

All of what jebatty said about EV range being affected by various factors. The worst (and most unpredictable) for me so far are nasty winter headwinds (30 mph or more) when it is also really cold outside. 

My Bolt has given me 300 miles of range in 75 - 85 degree weather (reasonable AC use barely affects range), 
260 miles of range in 30 degree temperatures (heated steering wheel and seats, 50W plug-in electric blanket for passenger, and heat set at 61 deg F on low and directed down low to keep feet warm). 
I've had as bad as 190 miles of range in 15 degree temperatures with a strong headwind. 
Having said all of that, the range reduction is really pretty manageable. I'll report back in my Bolt thread after I take my 190 mile long winter trip through the Catskills when it is 0 degrees F outside. God forbid I have to stop at the microbrewery on the way up and charge for an hour at the Level 2 charging station they have. If I had a Tesla, I could set up shop at the 10 station supercharger they have at the family-owned diner just down the block. 

This weekend I'll be taking a 120 mile trip to RPI to watch a hockey game. Troy, NY has plenty of Level 2 chargers on the campus and a few downtown as well. In the five hours I have dinner and watch a hockey game, I'll be fully charged ready to return home the next day. 

In just one year, I've seen many more DCFC stations opened on my inland route from NYC to suburban Virginia. 

The future is happening quickly, indeed.


----------



## Ashful

SpaceBus said:


> I like the Polestar vehicles not for any perceived ROI or savings, but for cutting edge technology in a safe, relatively fast, and well appointed vehicle. It's really the driving experience you are buying, nothing less, nothing more. If I wanted to be environmentally friendly there are much better options and none are buying a new car.
> 
> I want to stress the safety aspect even though it's not very cool. Until a few years ago I never cared and regularly did foolish things on my motorcycle. I grew up and realized that I want a safe car, but still something fun. Volvo makes it.



Agreed on most points, having already owned some of Volvo’s “faster” cars over the years.  Their driving ergonomics are never quite on par with BMW or Audi, but they have their own personality that’s uniquely Volvo, and we have always liked them.

I like the Polestar, and if I were buying a wagon to actually drive myself, it would be a possible contender at 415 hp in the small V60 wagon. But it’s almost entirely wasted on my wife, she really doesn’t care about big-hp vehicles, and would likely be happier in the 250 hp ICE. When combined with the beyond-lousy service of our two local Volvo dealerships and the distance of each from my house, we will likely not be buying another Volvo this time around, even as good as the prior one has been for us.

As much as the EV concept intrigues me, particularly for her daily needs, I’ve pretty much come around to passing on the idea for now.  We need to get a replacement for that old Volvo sooner than later (preferably before Jan.1), and I’m just not ready to dive into EV charging today, when I’m not seeing anything that really appeals to me from any dealer within driving distances as convenient as the ICE options we are presently considering.  Perhaps her next car in 2029, or my next pickup truck in 2027, depending on what’s available by then.


----------



## SpaceBus

Ashful said:


> Agreed on most points, I like the Polestar, and if I were buying a wagon to drive myself, it would be a possible contender at 415 hp in the small V60 wagon. But it’s almost entirely wasted on my wife, she really doesn’t care about big-hp vehicles, and would likely be happier in the 250 hp ICE. When combined with the beyond-lousy service of our two local Volvo dealerships and the distance of each from my house, we will likely not be buying another Volvo this time around, even as good as the prior one has been for us.


I'm glad my wife likes fast cars too. She misses the Mach 1 and the Challenger. The bikes are also missed, but she sleeps easier knowing I'm not getting on one anytime soon.

Volvo pretty much is the only manufacturer that makes a car that I would buy new.


----------



## begreen

Ashful said:


> Really? What vehicle? Have you reviewed the recommended maintenance schedule?


Yes, it's a Volt. The car actually prompts you for maintenance. Brakes are still like new. Not sure why this thread is drifting toward the Polestar. It's only one option. We like the Volt so much that we just bought a newer Gen2 model.


----------



## jebatty

StewartKy said:


> What were you driving before you got your Bolt?


I had a 2007 Toyota Camry that was totaled in a collision at highway speed with a car that failed to stop at a stop sign on a cross road.


----------



## jebatty

jatoxico said:


> Many good points made above and really great to hear real world experience. Although close, at this stage of my life I don't think I could live w/ an EV as a sole vehicle just yet. Won't bore you with the details but I have enough trips that the potential for reduced range would be problem.
> 
> Now if EV's were a bit more affordable so that I could justify having one strictly for commuting to and from work then I would consider. Guessing we're just a few short more years away.
> 
> @jebatty have you been in heavy traffic? How does sitting in traffic with heat/ac affect range. Living and especially working where I do, I often find myself stuck in crawling traffic for long (think 30 min or more) stretches.


I'm rarely in heavy traffic, but no doubt that sitting with the heat or a/c on for a long time will use battery capacity. Obviously, lower heat setting and higher a/c setting will use less battery capacity.


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## jebatty

DBOON "Having said all of that, the range reduction is really pretty manageable."

Fully agree.


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## Ashful

begreen said:


> Yes, it's a Volt. The car actually prompts you for maintenance. Brakes are still like new. Not sure why this thread is drifting toward the Polestar. It's only one option. We like the Volt so much that we just bought a newer Gen2 model.



I think the total post count in this thread mentioning the Bolt is actually far greater than the few recent posts out of 240 in this thread mentioning the Polestar. The thread has drifted into general EV talk (including PHEV), and the Polestar is perhaps one of the few options that legitimately competes with Tesla dual motor AWD upon which this thread was started, as a sporty higher-end option. I would never consider the $36k Bolt or $33k Volt to have much at all in common with a $50k - $60k dual motor Model 3... but the Polestar comes mighty close in many regards except the specifics of the underlying technology (PHEV vs. EV).


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## begreen

Regardless, the statement that PHEVs are high maintenance is a fallacy. (FYI, a well equipped Premier Volt has about a  $42K sticker price)


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## Ashful

begreen said:


> Regardless, the statement that PHEVs are high maintenance is a fallacy. (FYI, a well equipped Premier Volt has about a $42K sticker price)



Maybe, I’m only going on what I’ve read elsewhere, I don’t own a PHEV. But the statements make sense to me, you have the added cost of batteries and electric motors, while still having to maintain an ICE. You may not need to change the oil every 5000 - 7500 miles anymore, but you should still change it every 6 months, if you care at all about corrosive combustion contaminants sitting in the crankcase. So, for someone driving 10k - 15k miles per year, no maintenance advantage over an ICE car.  Likewise, they may have switched to a extended-life coolant, but there’s plenty of info out there showing that they’re not living up to expectations, either. A 24 month change interval is still recommended by many, there.

The advantage of the EV are more real, to most perspectives.  No oil changes, no engine coolant changes.  No purchase or maintenance cost associated with an ICE, period.


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## begreen

Ashful said:


> The advantage of the EV are more real, to most perspectives. No oil changes, no engine coolant changes. No purchase or maintenance cost associated with an ICE, period.


That is correct, there definitely are advantages to pure EV, including less pollution. However, there are also advantages to a PHEV, most notably the freedom to roam and explore without being tethered. This probably is more of a west coast need, the east coast populations are fairly densely packed in most locations. But I like to go hiking up in the mountains and the wilderness. And we like to go to the more remote locations in Eastern WA, OR, ID, Canada, etc. A PHEV gives us the best of both worlds. We don't have to worry about finding a charging station that may or may not be open or occupied or have the right plug connection. About 85% of our driving is local and that is almost all-electric, yet we have the range to roam. FWIW, the only maintenance cost for our car for the past 5 yrs has been an oil change about every 2 yrs. That's it. That is a cost much less than the catalyst replacements for some stoves. Our next car probably will be all electric, but right now the PHEV best suits our lifestyle and needs.
We're not the only ones that have made this choice. PHEVs are the first choice in Scandanavia too. Fortunately, they have a lot more choices than we do here. If a Passat GTE Estate was sold in America I would probably own one.


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## Ashful

Good post, begreen. Yeah, I’m lamenting the relative unpopularity of sports wagons in the USA right now, including the Passat Estate you mentioned. To get any car that fits this profile, esp. EV or PHEV, I’d have to go to a dealer too far from my daily driving radius to make it practical for us, right now. Yet every brand seems to have a plethora of bloated SUV’s, to the point where I have to admit we’re almost forced to go that direction to replace our current wagon, due to dealer convenience.


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## begreen

Yes, I have always preferred a wagon. The hatchback is a substitute. 

We're in a time of transition and a transitional technology make sense for our needs. I look forward to owning a BEV eventually, but right now there isn't anything that fits better than what we have. I did just sell our 2013 Volt and bought a low miles 2018 Volt so our range and gas mileage just got a nice boost. This will have us covered for the next few years at least.


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## Where2

DBoon said:


> In just one year, I've seen many more DCFC stations opened on my inland route from NYC to suburban Virginia.   The future is happening quickly, indeed.


I was just scanning ChargePoint to see if any DCFC (DC Fast Charger) locations exist are near me. It seems every Harley Davidson dealer within 100 miles of my house now has a DCFC. I may have to go look at one, just because in my 1500 miles of EV travels, I haven't actually seen one in person yet...



begreen said:


> ...We're not the only ones that have made this choice. PHEVs are the first choice in Scandanavia too. Fortunately, they have a lot more choices than we do here. If a Passat GTE Estate was sold in America I would probably own one.


If any VW GTE existed on our shores, I'd probably consider trading out my wife's CPO 2013 TDI Jetta Sportwagen. Alas, we don't get the good toys over on this side of the pond. 

I'm curious what members on this forum tend to have serviced on their vehicles at the dealership? Many comments have tended to make a point of making sure there is a dealership nearby when purchasing an EV. It's not like there are oil changes to be done, and rotating the tires isn't rocket science. Brake pads ought to last nearly indefinitely. There's no timing belt to replace. I'm ordering my Bosch wiper blade two packs from Amazon these days, and swapping them in the driveway in less time than it takes to drive to the local anything dealer (including the MB dealer I can see out my second floor window!). Looking at the service schedule (checklist) for my eGolf, there is nothing (beyond wiper blades, cabin air filter and changing the brake fluid) that the dealer will be checking at the 10k, 20k, 30k, 40k, 50k, 60k, 70k, 80k, 90k, 100k, 110k, or 120k service appointments that has gone wrong on the last new ICE vehicle I owned. My wife's CPO vehicle hasn't been back to a dealer since it drove off the VW lot 8k miles ago. 

Do you go for the free coffee in the waiting room, or the complimentary car wash?


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## Ashful

Where2 said:


> Looking at the service schedule (checklist) for my eGolf, there is nothing (beyond wiper blades, cabin air filter and changing the brake fluid) that the dealer will be checking at the 10k, 20k, 30k, 40k, 50k, 60k, 70k, 80k, 90k, 100k, 110k, or 120k service appointments that has gone wrong on the last new ICE vehicle I owned. My wife's CPO vehicle hasn't been back to a dealer since it drove off the VW lot 8k miles ago.
> 
> Do you go for the free coffee in the waiting room, or the complimentary car wash?


Good point, and at least in my case, I have considered this. But I do know Tesla owners who have had to visit the dealership multiple times, whether it be for recalls or updates. Not sure why, but I will be dining with the owner of a Model 3 Performance dual motor AWD tonight, so I will ask. Also, in the case of this particular car we’re replacing, we’ve been driving it about 25k miles per year, so your 8k miles experience is only maybe 4 months for us. It’s nearly two hours round-trip to the closest Tesla dealer, in peak traffic when we’d likely be doing it, so doing a round trip to drop off and another to pick up becomes a complete no-go for us.


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## SpaceBus

Where2 said:


> I was just scanning ChargePoint to see if any DCFC (DC Fast Charger) locations exist are near me. It seems every Harley Davidson dealer within 100 miles of my house now has a DCFC. I may have to go look at one, just because in my 1500 miles of EV travels, I haven't actually seen one in person yet...
> 
> 
> If any VW GTE existed on our shores, I'd probably consider trading out my wife's CPO 2013 TDI Jetta Sportwagen. Alas, we don't get the good toys over on this side of the pond.
> 
> I'm curious what members on this forum tend to have serviced on their vehicles at the dealership? Many comments have tended to make a point of making sure there is a dealership nearby when purchasing an EV. It's not like there are oil changes to be done, and rotating the tires isn't rocket science. Brake pads ought to last nearly indefinitely. There's no timing belt to replace. I'm ordering my Bosch wiper blade two packs from Amazon these days, and swapping them in the driveway in less time than it takes to drive to the local anything dealer (including the MB dealer I can see out my second floor window!). Looking at the service schedule (checklist) for my eGolf, there is nothing (beyond wiper blades, cabin air filter and changing the brake fluid) that the dealer will be checking at the 10k, 20k, 30k, 40k, 50k, 60k, 70k, 80k, 90k, 100k, 110k, or 120k service appointments that has gone wrong on the last new ICE vehicle I owned. My wife's CPO vehicle hasn't been back to a dealer since it drove off the VW lot 8k miles ago.
> 
> Do you go for the free coffee in the waiting room, or the complimentary car wash?


It's more for getting parts like headlights, taillights, and every other part associated with automotive maintenance. Bushings go bad, dampers break seals, and ball joints go slack. Just because there is no engine maintenance does not mean the car becomes maintenance free. Honestly oil changes and air filters are cheap compared to getting new wheel bearings or ball joints installed. This is why PHEVs will probably be around for a while and would be perfect for our situation here on the edge of the Earth. It's like the west coast where you might need to drive a few hundred miles in one day. My wife will be going in for surgery soon and I'll have to make several 150 mile round trips. We very much look forward to one day owning a PHEV or maybe even a BEV so our local trips can be silent and emissions free since our electricity is supplied by hydro.


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## DBoon

Where2 said:


> It seems every Harley Davidson dealer within 100 miles of my house now has a DCFC.


Same up north. I used one a couple of months back and browsed the H-D dealership while I was at it (had never been in one, actually). Was kind of amazed at the range of bikes they had - if these were only installed to just get traffic in their dealerships, job well done. Based on the E-bike video in their dealership, I think they are getting ready for release of their E-bikes. 

The charging rate for the H-D DCFC was about 2/3 that of EVGo. Not bad, but I recall that it was only about a 20-25 kWh/hour charge rate.


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## SpaceBus

E motorcycles are very exciting, especially for off road stuff. Silent quads will be great for hunting.


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## begreen

SpaceBus said:


> My wife will be going in for surgery soon and I'll have to make several 150 mile round trips. We very much look forward to one day owning a PHEV or maybe even a BEV so our local trips can be silent and emissions free since our electricity is supplied by hydro.


It will happen. Hope all goes well with the surgery.


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## Where2

SpaceBus said:


> It's more for getting parts like headlights, taillights, and every other part associated with automotive maintenance. Bushings go bad, dampers break seals, and ball joints go slack. Just because there is no engine maintenance does not mean the car becomes maintenance free. Honestly oil changes and air filters are cheap compared to getting new wheel bearings or ball joints installed. This is why PHEVs will probably be around for a while and would be perfect for our situation here on the edge of the Earth. It's like the west coast where you might need to drive a few hundred miles in one day. My wife will be going in for surgery soon and I'll have to make several 150 mile round trips. We very much look forward to one day owning a PHEV or maybe even a BEV so our local trips can be silent and emissions free since our electricity is supplied by hydro.



Space Bus: Safe travels for you and the wife, I have an idea which 150 mile run you're doing. It's a 160 mile (RT) to go get anything in Bangor from our place at the SW corner of "The County"... but it's all interstate for us not Route 1 or Route 9. The "southern boy" in me would be in a snowy ditch if I had to take your route.


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## begreen

jebatty, I am going to close this thread as it has wandered off topic frequently. Please feel free to post an update on your experiences with the 3.


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