# Wood stove purchase help



## eastcoastcanada (Dec 31, 2016)

Hi, I'm new here and I hope to gain some insite on wood burning stoves before my purchase. I read many threads but I'm not sure if I'm completely understanding the information and some threads are old and dead.

I have a 10 year old 2200 sf split entrance bungalow with all electric heat. I'm planning on installing a wood burning stove in the basement family room.  That location will put the stove below the 3 main for bedrooms and adjacent to a fourth bedroom. I have never burned wood in my home before but spent some of my youth cutting, hauling, splitting and stacking cord wood with my dad. I said that I would never put a wood stove in my own home when I grow up and yet here we are.  My wife and I are in our early 40s, the kids are pretty self sufficient and we spend more time home now. We both want the glow of a wood fire and we want to cut down on the heating costs. I've already checked with my insurance company and its about $100/year extra and I've just finished cutting, junking and stacking about 4 cords of firewood for next season.

So now that you have read a short story, I'm having trouble with stove selection and cost. I'm leaning towards a Quadrafire Millennium 3100. It's of thick steel construction and has ACC (auto combustion control). It's on discount for about $2600 tax in with blower but do I need to spend that much on a wood burning stove? You generally get what you pay for but it's $1200 more than a Century FW3000 with blower. I've looked at everything from $900 Defender all the way up to a $3600 Blaze King and it's mind boggling.

I want it to regulate the burn cycle kind of like a Newmac stove with the bimetal spring, I want it to have at least a 10hr burn, I want to see the fire and I want it to be a cost effective affair. I'm having trouble figuring out the relationship between efficiency, btu output and emissions.
Any suggestions, information or recommendations? Can I save a bunch by buying south of the border?


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## begreen (Dec 31, 2016)

The Century is a good deal. There are many good Canadian stoves, like Regency, Pacific Energy, and Enviro. If you are trying to save money Drolet and Century stoves offer good value and are made by SBI in Quebec. Their Osburn line is the fancier version of the Drolet. Also take a look at Englander stoves which are sold by Canadian Tire and Home Depot.


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## JA600L (Dec 31, 2016)

I have the Quadra fire 4300ACT Millennium.  For your house I would say bump it up to the 4300. You will want the extra firebox size.  

What you need to understand about emissions and efficiency is that it all comes down to how much heat you keep in your house.  

The more smoke or heat you send up the chimney the less efficient the stove is. 
You want to see flame,  but the more flame you see that means more heat goes up the chimney. 

So ideally you get the stove up to temperature and damper it down to where there is just a small trickle of flame at the top where it burns the smoke.  The more air you send into the stove the more heat goes out the chimney and more cold air enters your house.  It will always be this way.  

The real factor will always be the wood you put in the stove.  If you use good dry 2-3 year seasoned hardwoods you will get lots of heat with a very low air setting and you will still have some visible flames in the box.  Using wet wood means smouldering fires with more air and smoke and less heat in the house. 

In short, pick whichever stove you like and focus on developing a system for seasoning all of your wood to 20% moisture content or less.


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## WayneN (Dec 31, 2016)

This is the big brother of the model I have ( the Madison ). I'm heating a smaller place than you have but I have zero insulation ( brick on cinder on plaster ) and so far its keeping up in below freezing temps. When I run her full blast, I can heat the main floor to 85 and the upper floors to 75 -80. 

Not sure if you have a Lowe's nearby but it's sold under different names. Google the model number ( 50-SHSSW02 ) http://low.es/1iDDASV


Here's the one I have which is slightly smaller : http://low.es/1FqfIHf 

It's rated at 50k BTU and for up to 1800 feet vs the model above

Main advantages are since it sits in a high pedestal, there is no floor hearth requirement. Just ember / spark protection. Also, minimum clearances are awesome. I'm having no issues with there it sits in my townhome. The couch / walls get warm but not uncomfortable. The heat seems to bellow from the front and top. 

Also....you can't beat the large beautiful window! That's really what sold me. The View  






Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


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## eastcoastcanada (Dec 31, 2016)

JA600L said:


> I have the Quadra fire 4300ACT Millennium.  For your house I would say bump it up to the 4300. You will want the extra firebox size.
> 
> What you need to understand about emissions and efficiency is that it all comes down to how much heat you keep in your house.
> 
> ...



So in short...you don't really think I'm going to gain anything from spending 2 or 3 times as much on a Quadrafire, Regency or Pacific Energy as apposed to a 'home centre' wood stove (Century, Drolet, Englander, etc.) so long as it's big enough and my wood is dry enough. That correct?
No hardwood in my local area. My cutting area contains mostly spruce, fir and larch or juniper as we call it. I'm told and have read that 8-9 months in junked form is sufficient seasoning time however, I intend to stay 2 to 3 years ahead once I've started.

And...Would you buy the quadrafire over again? Are you so impressed with its performance?


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## eastcoastcanada (Dec 31, 2016)

wayne.nestor said:


> This is the big brother of the model I have ( the Madison ). I'm heating a smaller place than you have but I have zero insulation ( brick on cinder on plaster ) and so far its keeping up in below freezing temps. When I run her full blast, I can heat the main floor to 85 and the upper floors to 75 -80.
> 
> Not sure if you have a Lowe's nearby but it's sold under different names. Google the model number ( 50-SHSSW02 ) http://low.es/1iDDASV
> 
> ...


That part number appears to be sold under the Englander name at my local home depot and the Timber Ridge name at my local Canadian Tire. It retails for $1500 Canadian.


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## begreen (Dec 31, 2016)

Yes, it's about $900 stateside. In Drolet look at the Baltic II and the HT2000. There is also the Napoleon 1900 which is made in Quebec but a bit more expensive than the Drolet.


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## VirginiaIron (Dec 31, 2016)

If I recall correctly, Quadra fire pioneered that  Noncatalytic efficient burning technique. In the early 1990s we justified the extra price  for our Quadra fire for that very reason and technology  because we didn't want a catalytic device after hearing of all the complaints about them. When we move to Virginia in the mid 90s we also purchased a Quadra fire for that very reason. IMHO- Today it seems like everybody has the same/similar clean burn  Noncatalytic technology and it is hard to justify the extra price unless you want special appearances fit and finishes  that the common man may not have or cannot afford. With that said, I think there are less expensive  clean burning stoves that have acceptable fit and finishes that should perform similar to the higher-priced competitors.  Things to consider are the service of the dealer and the manufacturer and warranty. Honestly,  I think once you buy it and put the stove into service it's yours for the keeping, so consider that before paying high retail.  This is why we went with Lowe's because of there if you're not happy bring it back guarantee. There is one other dealership online, I think Northline express, that offers a 30 day trial which I find is very impressive- check the terms.  We gambled on putting a larger stove in our home and so far it's been the right choice. We can bring it up to a given temperature and just feed it intermittently with smaller pieces/loads or fill it full and let it cruise for most of the day.  Our stove has a fairly  hi transference of heat yet it seems to hold the heat for an acceptable length of time.


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## bcrtops (Dec 31, 2016)

begreen said:


> Yes, it's about $900 stateside. In Drolet look at the Baltic II and the HT2000. There is also the Napoleon 1900 which is made in Quebec but a bit more expensive than the Drolet.



@begreen is the resident wood-stove encyclopedia.  He always comes up with a large list of appropriate stoves.  I'll bet if you asked him which of all these stoves only require a spark protection hearth, he could list 'em off.


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## begreen (Dec 31, 2016)

VirginiaIron said:


> If I recall correctly, Quadra fire pioneered that  Noncatalytic efficient burning technique. In the early 1990s we justified the extra price  for our Quadra fire for that very reason and technology  because we didn't want a catalytic device after hearing of all the complaints about them. When we move to Virginia in the mid 90s we also purchased a Quadra fire for that very reason. IMHO- Today it seems like everybody has the same/similar clean burn  Noncatalytic technology and it is hard to justify the extra price unless you want special appearances fit and finishes  that the common man may not have or cannot afford. With that said, I think there are less expensive  clean burning stoves that have acceptable fit and finishes that should perform similar to the higher-priced competitors.  Things to consider are the service of the dealer and the manufacturer and warranty. Honestly,  I think once you buy it and put the stove into service it's yours for the keeping, so consider that before paying high retail.  This is why we went with Lowe's because of there if you're not happy bring it back guarantee. There is one other dealership online, I think Northline express, that offers a 30 day trial which I find is very impressive- check the terms.  We gambled on putting a larger stove in our home and so far it's been the right choice. We can bring it up to a given temperature and just feed it intermittently with smaller pieces/loads or fill it full and let it cruise for most of the day.  Our stove has a fairly  hi transference of heat yet it seems to hold the heat for an acceptable length of time.


I like Quads, they are WA state made and very good stoves but I think the Avalon stoves were the first EPA tube stove in the mid 80's from history that Craig posted in a much earlier thread. Both Quad and Avalon were made in response to tighter regs in WA and OR.  Blaze King and others introduced some cat solutions then too. Before that Vermont Castings and Cawley Lemay introduced different methods for cleaner burning, but not up to modern specs.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/the-short-story-of-a-stove-genius.119156/


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## VirginiaIron (Dec 31, 2016)

I stand corrected, it was the quad-burn technology that burns the gases four times. Anyhow, I think it had the lowest emissions of the noncatalytic stoves at that time.


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## begreen (Dec 31, 2016)

"Quad burn" is mostly marketing methinks. Most all tube stoves burn that way based on the definition.


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## VirginiaIron (Dec 31, 2016)

begreen said:


> "Quad burn" is mostly marketing methinks. Most all tube stoves burn that way based on the definition.



Methinks  there's a lot of that going around too.


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## Niko (Jan 1, 2017)

get a blaze king wood stove.   Check for yourself the countless post and threads in this forum on the product.  Also check to see if you can find a used one.  You can't the reason why everyone keeps em.  You might find 20-30 year old model.  But you will find tons and tons of other stoves for sale used. 

If you are using this as your primary heat source do you really wanna feed it 3 times a day?  I'm 39 years old I work, married with a 4 year old, a dog and am fixing up my house.  The last thing I want to do is add more stuff to my lists of what to do.  Really think about your purchase, I myself was a little shocked at wood stove prices when looking 3 years ago.  But I am glad I bought a king ultra amd i drove 3 hrs to get it!  I took one season to learn as I was a rookie never burned in any type of cat stove before.  But This forum and its members has helped me out a lot.

The stove is my primary heat for my 3,000 sqaure foot house and it does a great job of keeping it hot and warm.  I have learned a lot of what to do and what not to do.  I fill my stove once every 24hrs!   And clean out the ash in it like ever 3 weeks+.  Seasoned wood is the number one thing for this stove.   You will notice a huge difference.  The more i learn the longer my burn times are getting as i dont fill my stove with wood in every little crack of space and i dont individually pic what wood goes in at what times.  I can get longer burn times but my schedule of burn times works for me perfect and its not like my stove is on low either.  Downstairs its like 80+ and upstairs i range from 72-67 depending on part of the house,  the colder parts i will be addressing with better insulation in the Future.  I use no fans to move the heat around just natural convection from stove And my house has many different rooms with 9 foot ceilings.  

Be very strategic on where you put your stove.  Remember its not central air, whatever room you put it in that room will be the hottest.  For me i put it downstairs near my stairs that go up and also near my patios doors for easy access to outside for realoads.  Every piece of the puzzle will ensure that the stove makes your life easier and not harder.


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 1, 2017)

Based on the comments and input from previous owners and others here, I no longer believe that the Quadrafire is worth the extra cash. I am a person who believes that you get what you pay for but I actually have to see a tangible difference and I just wasn't seeing that in the other expensive stove brands. I've noticed that Kent Building Supplies has their wood stoves on sale now. $200 - $250 off is pretty nice. There's a Nepoleon Timberwolf 2200 that includes pedistal, ash pan kit and blower on sale for $1050. It's efficiency is listed at 86% on their website and I have not seen any stove with those efficiency numbers other than the catylatic models. I guess I have to go look at what they have in store this week.
Thank you all for your input.


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## Niko (Jan 1, 2017)

eastcoastcanada said:


> Based on the comments and input from previous owners and others here, I no longer believe that the Quadrafire is worth the extra cash. I am a person who believes that you get what you pay for but I actually have to see a tangible difference and I just wasn't seeing that in the other expensive stove brands. I've noticed that Kent Building Supplies has their wood stoves on sale now. $200 - $250 off is pretty nice. There's a Nepoleon Timberwolf 2200 that includes pedistal, ash pan kit and blower on sale for $1050. It's efficiency is listed at 86% on their website and I have not seen any stove with those efficiency numbers other than the catylatic models. I guess I have to go look at what they have in store this week.
> Thank you all for your input.




the best bang for your buck now def will not be the best bang for your buck longterm.   This i can gaurantee.


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 1, 2017)

Niko said:


> get a blaze king wood stove.   Check for yourself the countless post and threads in this forum on the product.  Also check to see if you can find a used one.  You can't the reason why everyone keeps em.  You might find 20-30 year old model.  But you will find tons and tons of other stoves for sale used.
> 
> If you are using this as your primary heat source do you really wanna feed it 3 times a day?  I'm 39 years old I work, married with a 4 year old, a dog and am fixing up my house.  The last thing I want to do is add more stuff to my lists of what to do.  Really think about your purchase, I myself was a little shocked at wood stove prices when looking 3 years ago.  But I am glad I bought a king ultra amd i drove 3 hrs to get it!  I took one season to learn as I was a rookie never burned in any type of cat stove before.  But This forum and its members has helped me out a lot.
> 
> ...


You know, I've heard great things about the Blaze King stoves and if I had a house that was better suited to use a stove for primary heat, I would likely buy one. I did go look at them and to say the least, I was impressed. My local dealer had a Sirocco 30 lit and humming along. I was there in the morning and the guy said that it had been cleaned and lit the morning before and would not likely need any wood until just before closing time. I was not impressed with the $3600-$3700 price tag or the $800 replacement combuster. My house layout and the fact that I only have one location that I can install the wood stove pretty much eliminates the justification of spending that much, though I would have gone to $2500.
I have an 18,000 btu mini-split heat pump installed in the main living area that more then takes care of that end of the house but the bedrooms and the entire basement doesn't benifit from it at all. The lower level family room is the only location I can install the stove and that also places it below the bedrooms.
I totally agree with everything you just mentioned but for now, at least in this particular house, a Blaze King just wouldn't give me the 'warm and fuzzies'. In 7 to 10 years, my wife and I plan to scale down to a 1500 -1800 sf open concept, super insulated home that will have a centrally located wood burning stove, likely primary heat so a Blaze King would make perfect sense.


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## kennyp2339 (Jan 1, 2017)

eastcoastcanada said:


> I was not impressed with the $3600-$3700 price tag or the $800 replacement combuster.


Wow - that's a huge mark up, almost a gouge. Remember to all BK prospects, if you see a stove from a dealer and you like it, but don't like the dealer due to prices / distance / ect... You can always go to any non BK dealer and have them order your stove through BK. BK is a dealer only manufactor, but they do allow non BK dealers to order. Also a factor with these stoves is shipping (freight charges) As for the combustor a steel cat should go in the neighborhood of $280.00 - $380.00 ($319.00 @ Hechlers)


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## kennyp2339 (Jan 1, 2017)

Also, nothing wrong with your other choices, my main concern is lack of hard woods in your area. Some of these tube stoves are lite breathers so burn times and temp control might be an issue, especially if working off a chimney greater than 20ft , atleast if you have something (doesn't matter brand) with t-stat control it will help with that regulation of air to give you smooth burns. Whats the layout in the basement? were's the stairs to the main floor, is the basement insulated? 2,200 sqft, is that also counting the basement, or just main floor living area's, and are you planning installing an outside fresh air kit?


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 1, 2017)

kennyp2339 said:


> Also, nothing wrong with your other choices, my main concern is lack of hard woods in your area. Some of these tube stoves are lite breathers so burn times and temp control might be an issue, especially if working off a chimney greater than 20ft , atleast if you have something (doesn't matter brand) with t-stat control it will help with that regulation of air to give you smooth burns. Whats the layout in the basement? were's the stairs to the main floor, is the basement insulated? 2,200 sqft, is that also counting the basement, or just main floor living area's, and are you planning installing an outside fresh air kit?


1100 sf. main floor and 1100 sf. basement. The family room where the stove is going is located in the basement and it's 16 x 20 and the stairwell is just outside the family room door. The chimney will be about 16 feet high and I was not planning on installing a fresh air kit because most people around here are not using them and are not experiencing any combustion issues. Some internet research has also deemed it not necessary.


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## JA600L (Jan 1, 2017)

Quadra fire uses pumice firebrick which is slightly unique.  

If you are burning all softwoods I would agree that a non cat stove may rip through a load of wood faster than you like. 

A stove with more low end control might be beneficial.


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 1, 2017)

kennyp2339 said:


> Wow - that's a huge mark up, almost a gouge. Remember to all BK prospects, if you see a stove from a dealer and you like it, but don't like the dealer due to prices / distance / ect... You can always go to any non BK dealer and have them order your stove through BK. BK is a dealer only manufactor, but they do allow non BK dealers to order. Also a factor with these stoves is shipping (freight charges) As for the combustor a steel cat should go in the neighborhood of $280.00 - $380.00 ($319.00 @ Hechlers)


Unless I can get it for $2500 canadian, it's out of the budget. This is a complete new install in preparation for next season and I need to have a chimney installed also. Is there an online source for BK?


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 1, 2017)

JA600L said:


> Quadra fire uses pumice firebrick which is slightly unique.
> 
> If you are burning all softwoods I would agree that a non cat stove may rip through a load of wood faster than you like.
> 
> A stove with more low end control might be beneficial.


Our designated wood cutting area contains no hardwood and yet the prevalent wood stoves around here are the standard home centre available EPA certified models from Drolet, Century and Nepoleon as well as others. We still get 8 hr burn with 1.5 to 2 cu.ft. fire boxes from $1000 to $1400 stove, depending on brand.  That's on par with factory specs so I had assumed they have to list minimum performance standards. If I did get hardwood, it would have to be birch and I would have to buy it from a supplier who ships it in from central Newfoundland. That would negate any savings with burning wood. I would however, love to get a Blaze King Sirocco 30 but they simply cost too much.  Sirocco 20 firebox is $2124, black cast door is $387 and the pedistal base is $336. That's $3274 tax in. The sirocco 30 is obviously more.


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## bholler (Jan 1, 2017)

JA600L said:


> Quadra fire uses pumice firebrick which is slightly unique.


so do most other modern stoves


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## begreen (Jan 1, 2017)

Niko said:


> the best bang for your buck now def will not be the best bang for your buck longterm.   This i can gaurantee.


I remember when BrotherBart was the first to show up with a big Englander here. Concerns were expressed about reliability and quality, especially over the long term. Well, that was 10(?) years ago and that stove still heats the place 24/7. Modern Drolets, Englanders are solid products. They may not have all the features that other stoves have but given normal operation they do stand up.


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## Squisher (Jan 1, 2017)

I believe any of the 'budget' stoves you've been considering will be fine. I run PE's which are a little more but I'm more than happy with my overnight burns and quite confident that my future expenses on either of my stoves will be minimal to zilch. I burn mostly fir and have no problems loading my stove three or four times a day. I enjoy the nice fireview that is always present. And I'm fine with heating in cycles. I've heated with wood my whole life and most any modern stove is sure to please IMO.


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 1, 2017)

VirginiaIron said:


> I stand corrected, it was the quad-burn technology that burns the gases four times. Anyhow, I think it had the lowest emissions of the noncatalytic stoves at that time.


One of the selling points to the quadrafire for me was the low emmisions. The Mellenium 3100 for instance, has 2 cu.ft. firebox, 10-12 hr max burn time, 51100 btu, 1.1 emissions and 78.7% efficiency however, I have stumbled upon the Timberwolf Economizer EPA line of wood stoves that appear to be more efficient for quite a bit less money. The Economizer 2200 is about the same size as the Mellenium 3100 but it has a claimed 65000 btu and an 86% efficiency rating. That's astounding considering the Blaze Kings are in the low 80% efficiency range.
All these emmisions, efficiency and max burn time numbers have me confused. Since the Timberwolf dealer told me it was a Nepoleon stove and yet Nepoleon hasn't achieved these efficiency numbers.
At any rate, $1100 for the 1.9 cu.ft. Economizer 2200 and $1400 for the 3 cu.ft. Economizer 2300, it sounds like a great deal. Both are above 83% efficiency.


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## begreen (Jan 1, 2017)

Squisher said:


> I believe any of the 'budget' stoves you've been considering will be fine. I run PE's which are a little more but I'm more than happy with my overnight burns and quite confident that my future expenses on either of my stoves will be minimal to zilch. I burn mostly fir and have no problems loading my stove three or four times a day. I enjoy the nice fireview that is always present. And I'm fine with heating in cycles. I've heated with wood my whole life and most any modern stove is sure to please IMO.



While my first recommendation in the medium size would be the Super 27, the True North TN20 is made by PE. It has some similarities with it's cousin the Super 27, like the square firebox and close clearances but with a conventional secondary tube rack and vermiculite baffle.


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## begreen (Jan 1, 2017)

Squisher said:


> I believe any of the 'budget' stoves you've been considering will be fine. I run PE's which are a little more but I'm more than happy with my overnight burns and quite confident that my future expenses on either of my stoves will be minimal to zilch. I burn mostly fir and have no problems loading my stove three or four times a day. I enjoy the nice fireview that is always present. And I'm fine with heating in cycles. I've heated with wood my whole life and most any modern stove is sure to please IMO.





eastcoastcanada said:


> One of the selling points to the quadrafire for me was the low emmisions. The Mellenium 3100 for instance, has 2 cu.ft. firebox, 10-12 hr max burn time, 51100 btu, 1.1 emissions and 78.7% efficiency however, I have stumbled upon the Timberwolf Economizer EPA line of wood stoves that appear to be more efficient for quite a bit less money. The Economizer 2200 is about the same size as the Mellenium 3100 but it has a claimed 65000 btu and an 86% efficiency rating. That's astounding considering the Blaze Kings are in the low 80% efficiency range.
> All these emmisions, efficiency and max burn time numbers have me confused. Since the Timberwolf dealer told me it was a Nepoleon stove and yet Nepoleon hasn't achieved these efficiency numbers.
> At any rate, $1100 for the 1.9 cu.ft. Economizer 2200 and $1400 for the 3 cu.ft. Economizer 2300, it sounds like a great deal. Both are above 83% efficiency.


This might be marketing. Here are the EPA listings for the Timberwolf:

Wolf Steel Ltd.
2200 series (Timberwolf 2200, 2201) Emissions *3.6 *BTU output 12000-31400 Non Catalytic

Wolf Steel Ltd.
2100 series (Timberwolf) Emissions *3.9 *BTU output 11,238-37580 Non Catalytic


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 1, 2017)

begreen said:


> I remember when BrotherBart was the first to show up with a big Englander here. Concerns were expressed about reliability and quality, especially over the long term. Well, that was 10(?) years ago and that stove still heats the place 24/7. Modern Drolets, Englanders are solid products. They may not have all the features that other stoves have but given normal operation they do stand up.


I believe this to be true now after reading these comments. I'm going to go out this week and take a look and some sub $1800 wood stoves. There are several on sale right now but I am going to take the advice of others here and get a larger fire box then I had planned.


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## begreen (Jan 1, 2017)

Sounds like a good plan.


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 1, 2017)

Squisher said:


> I believe any of the 'budget' stoves you've been considering will be fine. I run PE's which are a little more but I'm more than happy with my overnight burns and quite confident that my future expenses on either of my stoves will be minimal to zilch. I burn mostly fir and have no problems loading my stove three or four times a day. I enjoy the nice fireview that is always present. And I'm fine with heating in cycles. I've heated with wood my whole life and most any modern stove is sure to please IMO.





Squisher said:


> I believe any of the 'budget' stoves you've been considering will be fine. I run PE's which are a little more but I'm more than happy with my overnight burns and quite confident that my future expenses on either of my stoves will be minimal to zilch. I burn mostly fir and have no problems loading my stove three or four times a day. I enjoy the nice fireview that is always present. And I'm fine with heating in cycles. I've heated with wood my whole life and most any modern stove is sure to please IMO.


The Pacific Energy stoves came highly recommended but my local dealer had nothing reasonably priced. They were more than the Quadrafire stoves I looked at. You say they were a little more than a budget stove? The dealer here in town must want to get rich on them because I did not see anything that justified the prices.


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## begreen (Jan 1, 2017)

For frame of reference go to www.chimneysweeponline.com to see what PE stoves cost on the west coast. You are about as far east as it gets, so shipping will add up. This is the dealer that shows up for the NL area. For you the big Drolets, Englanders or Napoleon 1900 may end up being a better value.

*Emberley's Fireplace, Kitchen & Bath*
3 Commonwealth Avenue
Mount Pearl, NL
A1N 2C1
Tel: 709.368.1093


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## Squisher (Jan 1, 2017)

not sure what your dealer was pricing things at, and I think because they are made out here the pricing is probably better.  The baffle system is much more robust than most reburn stoves and will last indefinitely and also they use a stainless flame shield above it to protect the stove and lastly they are designed and built as a floating firebox to relieve  stresses on the stove as a whole. I think these are a few of the main pluses.


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## Squisher (Jan 1, 2017)

I clean chimneys/stoves so get to see hands on many different stoves. The quality and construction of PE is quite high IMO compared to some of the cheaper stoves. They also have a fantastic airwash system for keeping the glass clean. I generally clean my glass.........not at all. It just stays fairly clean on its own.


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## begreen (Jan 1, 2017)

Many PE stoves also regulate the secondary air rather than leaving it wide open. This helps efficiency. The Super 27 series has a linked secondary air control that helps these stove achieve so very nice burn times. I believe the Enviro Kodiak series also have this feature.


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 1, 2017)

begreen said:


> For frame of reference go to www.chimneysweeponline.com to see what PE stoves cost on the west coast. You are about as far east as it gets, so shipping will add up. This is the dealer that shows up for the NL area. For you the big Drolets, Englanders or Napoleon 1900 may end up being a better value.
> 
> *Emberley's Fireplace, Kitchen & Bath*
> 3 Commonwealth Avenue
> ...


Yup, that's where I went. I had just assumed PE was really expensivery however, I am aware of the extra labour that goes into making them with the floating fire box, raised door lip, etc.


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## Squisher (Jan 1, 2017)

Dealers won't like it, espescially if they are installing th chimney for you. But if you are really looking for a 'deal' and not in a panic you can shop classifieds too.  I bought my summit stove new but snagged my super insert this year out of the classifieds for a steal of a deal. Can be a bit of a gamble if you're unsure what to look for but some people sell off stoves for cheap for whatever reason.


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## Woody Stover (Jan 1, 2017)

How about a Woodstock? With one of their hybrid steel stove you could get the long cat burns on softwoods, at about 2/3 the price of a BK for what appears to be a better-built stove, from what I have read. You can add grated ash-handling, and the cats are about half the price as well. It may be that shipping to your location would still kill ya, though...


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 1, 2017)

Squisher said:


> not sure what your dealer was pricing things at, and I think because they are made out here the pricing is probably better.  The baffle system is much more robust than most reburn stoves and will last indefinitely and also they use a stainless flame shield above it to protect the stove and lastly they are designed and built as a floating firebox to relieve  stresses on the stove as a whole. I think these are a few of the main pluses.


PE has their 'extended burn' technology that starts at their Summit model which is 3 cu.ft. and has a claimed 10 hr burn time. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't most 3 cu.ft. wood stoves get 10-12 hours anyway? Where is the extend burn? The $1400 Timberwolf 2300 is the same size and claims 12 hour burns at higher efficiencis.


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 1, 2017)

Squisher said:


> Dealers won't like it, espescially if they are installing th chimney for you. But if you are really looking for a 'deal' and not in a panic you can shop classifieds too.  I bought my summit stove new but snagged my super insert this year out of the classifieds for a steal of a deal. Can be a bit of a gamble if you're unsure what to look for but some people sell off stoves for cheap for whatever reason.


I will be installing my own chimney and stove as my insurance compay does not require a WETT certified instalation. They will send down one of their local inspectors to sign off on the work and I'm extremely competent. However, the prevailant wood stoves around here are Nepoleon, Drolet, Century, etc. The odds of me finding a PE, Quadrafire, Regency, etc. would literally be a million to one. But I'm still looking.


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## Woody Stover (Jan 1, 2017)

eastcoastcanada said:


> PE has their 'extended burn' technology that starts at their Summit model which is 3 cu.ft. and has a claimed 10 hr burn time. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't most 3 cu.ft. wood stoves get 10-12 hours anyway? Where is the extend burn?


A lot of these claims are marketing but I think the PEs are know to burn a _bit_ longer than some of the other secondary stoves. In your position, I would focus less on claimed specs, more on what you see when you go to look at the stoves in person. How easy is it going to be to clean? How easy will it be to replace parts, if needed? How well-thought-out and well-built does it appear to be?


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 1, 2017)

Woody Stover said:


> How about a Woodstock? With one of their hybrid steel stove you could get the long cat burns on softwoods, at about 2/3 the price of a BK for what appears to be a better-built stove, from what I have read. You can add grated ash-handling, and the cats are about half the price as well. It may be that shipping to your location would still kill ya, though...


I'm checking into this stove now, I've never heard of them.


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## Squisher (Jan 1, 2017)

I wouldn't get hung up on the marketing stuff to much like Woody Stover said. 

Honestly if PE's are premium priced because of your local I'd pass on them and look more for what's available locally.


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## Squisher (Jan 1, 2017)

I'd recommend going out and finding a model or two of a available stove with a price point you're happy with and then come back here and ask some opinions and search around the site for info.


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## bcrtops (Jan 1, 2017)

Squisher said:


> not sure what your dealer was pricing things at, and I think because they are made out here the pricing is probably better.  The baffle system is much more robust than most reburn stoves and will last indefinitely and also they use a stainless flame shield above it to protect the stove and lastly they are designed and built as a floating firebox to relieve  stresses on the stove as a whole. I think these are a few of the main pluses.





Squisher said:


> I clean chimneys/stoves so get to see hands on many different stoves. The quality and construction of PE is quite high IMO compared to some of the cheaper stoves. They also have a fantastic airwash system for keeping the glass clean. I generally clean my glass.........not at all. It just stays fairly clean on its own.



Squisher is right on here ^^^^^
However, if I lived on the East Coast & with lack of a good dealer, I'd most likely be looking at the others too!  Woodstock is a neat concept stove & company, but they are not cheap.   Due to shipping cost, they are a rare item on the West Coast.


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 1, 2017)

bcrtops said:


> Squisher is right on here ^^^^^
> However, if I lived on the East Coast & with lack of a good dealer, I'd most likely be looking at the others too!  Woodstock is a neat concept stove & company, but they are not cheap.   Due to shipping cost, they are a rare item on the West Coast.


When I go out this week to have a final look around, I'll see if I can get them to lower the price on the models that interest me the most but I met with resistance the last time. I got the feeling that most of the dealers think the stoves sell themselves and price drops are not warranted or visited.
I told one guy how quality was pretty important to me and he talked down about the home centre stoves and the people who buy them despite the fact that I see some of the same models on his floor for hundreds more.


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## begreen (Jan 1, 2017)

SBI makes Century, Drolet, Osburn and Flame. There are some differences on the execution, but there are also a lot of similarities between certain models. Enough that I suspect some models share a common firebox. In spite of the Century line being the least expensive it still represents a good value. If you are looking for a big, well-made heating beast, look at the Drolet HT2000. It has a lot in common with the popular Osburn 2400.


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## Niko (Jan 1, 2017)

dude filling your stove 3-4 times in a 24 hr period wow.   I mean anyone can do it but i prefer not too.  If you have fuel for free awesome, but if your talking about buying wood then you can clearly see your either gonna spend your money upfront and less to fuel, or less upfront and more money to fuel.  i domt wanna bash on anyone that has something different so i mean no disrespect please.  

But i had the same exact feeling as you in the beginning.  I took my time and did extreme homework.  I saved some more and bought with knowldge of knowing that i still coulda bought something lss expensive but i purchased what was more effiencient by far.  

Im not sure where your getting your prices for your stoves but you need to tell that dealer go F himself and find someone else.  The price you gave before is what people are paying for king ultra and that sells for 3200.  


Not all wood burns the same and your moisture levels wont all be the same either.  So these over night burns wont all be constant at all.  I love not having to load the stove when i wake up before i go to work and even when i can home from work tired.  At night while i watch tv ill load her up right before i go to bed.  Repeat over and over.


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## Niko (Jan 1, 2017)

begreen said:


> I remember when BrotherBart was the first to show up with a big Englander here. Concerns were expressed about reliability and quality, especially over the long term. Well, that was 10(?) years ago and that stove still heats the place 24/7. Modern Drolets, Englanders are solid products. They may not have all the features that other stoves have but given normal operation they do stand up.




Well i meant more for fuel then the unit.


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## bholler (Jan 1, 2017)

Niko said:


> Well i meant more for fuel then the unit.


Not sure what you mean.  Bks are not that much more efficient than the other stoves being considered that fuel savings would be much of an issue at all.  Yes if you turn a bk way down you will get really long burn times but you also wont get that much heat out of it.


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## Squisher (Jan 1, 2017)

There's plenty of threads debating cat vs non-cat. This doesn't need to be yet another one. I could list the things I dislike about your cat stove but I don't need to. When I bought my stove cost wasn't a consideration in the slightest. 

I heated a 2600sqft home for years with my old smokey Lakewood.  A huge stove. Capable heater. Hungry. Now I heat that same home entirely if I choose to with my PE summit. No issues, no 'lacking comparable output' to my old stove. 

I've heated 24/7 for a 42 year life so far. I also heat a shop most of the winter too with that Lakewood stove still. 

To me, you sound lazy. 

To each their own. 

The OP has stated what he's looking for I wouldn't have probably even commented if it was a cat stove he showed up and desired.


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## Niko (Jan 1, 2017)

I never mentoined a cat stove at all i just mentoined blaze king.  I had no idea what a cat stove was when i was reading but my research kept me curious when i saw the 30-40 hr burn times.  I never seen a cat stove, touched, burned or know anybody that has one.  Im just saying how long my stove keeps my house warm before i have refil it again. Im not lazy at all.  I have wood stove like the rest of you, i split, stack, burn, repeat.  i just do a lot less of it.  

Op thread says wood stove purchase help, that is what im trying to do.  

Ive only been buring for 3-4 years now.  Others that have been for decades i applause you.  So OP goodluck with your purchase.


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 1, 2017)

Niko said:


> dude filling your stove 3-4 times in a 24 hr period wow.   I mean anyone can do it but i prefer not too.  If you have fuel for free awesome, but if your talking about buying wood then you can clearly see your either gonna spend your money upfront and less to fuel, or less upfront and more money to fuel.  i domt wanna bash on anyone that has something different so i mean no disrespect please.
> 
> But i had the same exact feeling as you in the beginning.  I took my time and did extreme homework.  I saved some more and bought with knowldge of knowing that i still coulda bought something lss expensive but i purchased what was more effiencient by far.
> 
> ...


Again, I totally agree with what you Blaze King guys are saying, I was absolutely blown away by what I see at the dealer but I notice you are in NY. Could it be possible that you missed the area where I said I was in Canada? Our dollar sucks! I have a quote here for a Sirocco 20 with pedistal and plain black door for $3274.05 Canadian. If I can get a King for $3200 then surely the Sirocco 20 would be only about $2400 because a King here in Newfoundland is almost $4500. I would be all over a $2400 Sirocco 20 or even step up to a 30 for a little more. However, if you could point me towards a Canadian dealer or retailer that will sell me a Blaze King for those prices, I would be in your debt for sure.


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## bholler (Jan 1, 2017)

Niko said:


> I never mentoined a cat stove at all i just mentoined blaze king.


You do realize blaze kings are cat stoves right.  And they are fantastic stoves with the ability to burn extremely long and pretty clean at the same time.   But they do not save you that much fuel really.


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## Squisher (Jan 1, 2017)

I have no doubts that I run my stove very efficiently(fantastic wood, multiple thermometers, good chimney) and my heat demand is high to heat my whole home. Slow and low is not what I was looking for or need.  If I was to take a load of wood and stretch the btus out over 12 or 24hrs that wouldn't cut it for heating my home.

Another option I weighed was that I plan to have this stove for the rest of my life or until it wears out somehow. In that 30+ year time frame I will buy zero combustors for it, zero gaskets for said cumbostors, zero gaskets for bypass dampers too. 

I don't mean to sound pretentious when I said cost was no factor but at the time it wasn't. I had sold a business I had built from the ground up and my reward that I allowed myself was to buy my first new stove and to buy whatever I wanted. I'm happy with my choice and as I said, plan to burn this stove for the rest of mylife. I'll see I suppose if it's up to the task. So far so good. 

Everyone (hopefully) is happy with their own stoves for their own reasons. I don't think my stove is the best stove for everyone. Sure I'll recommend it glowingly if asked or it seems appropriate. But if it's not what someone else wants or needs that's fine with me. I'm happy for others who have their stove that they feel is the best for them. 

To sort of come back full circle to the OP. I think you are wanting a more inexpensive stove regardless and have been given some good options to look into.


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 1, 2017)

Blaze Kings are all catylatic stoves to my knowledge and they are far more expensive than they need to be. They are an amazing stove but near as I can tell, they are only capable of extremely low emissions and low & slow burns but not much gain in BTUs or efficiency.  Several non-catylatic wood stoves are more efficient.  I've gotten a lot of input and suggestion. I hope no one has gotten hot under the collar and I value *ALL* your opinions. A piece of wood only contains a certain amount of heat energy and it doesn't matter how slow or fast you burn it. Whether it's 75,000 BTU/hour for 10 hours or 25,000 BTU/hour for 30 hours.  I have set a budget in Canadian dollars and I could certainly spend more but can't justify it. I'm going to revisit some home centres and wood stove dealers this week and see if I can get some better prices on some premium brand stoves but ultimately, if they don't fall at or below my budget, it won't be going in the back if the truck.
Unfortunately, I won't know if I made the right choice until this time next year. Why purchase now you might ask? I want to take advantage of the sales, install the whole thing in the summer when I'm not allowed to cut wood, test fire it and then concentrate on the following years wood supply. I also have some reno work to do before I install the stove and chimney.


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 1, 2017)

Squisher said:


> I have no doubts that I run my stove very efficiently(fantastic wood, multiple thermometers, good chimney) and my heat demand is high to heat my whole home. Slow and low is not what I was looking for or need.  If I was to take a load of wood and stretch the btus out over 12 or 24hrs that wouldn't cut it for heating my home.
> 
> Another option I weighed was that I plan to have this stove for the rest of my life or until it wears out somehow. In that 30+ year time frame I will buy zero combustors for it, zero gaskets for said cumbostors, zero gaskets for bypass dampers too.
> 
> ...


I've been given some great options! Some I haven't heard of and some that are available to me at several location which gives me some negotiating power. It's testimonials like yours that sell stoves, not specs. As suggested, I've almost given up on the numbers through shear confusion.
If I may bother you for more information, how long of a burn do you get? The Summit is supposed to have the extended burn technology and has a 10 hour rating. How long do you typically get out of it and do you burn soft or hard wood?


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## BKVP (Jan 1, 2017)

eastcoastcanada said:


> Blaze Kings are all catylatic stoves to my knowledge and they are far more expensive than they need to be. They are an amazing stove but near as I can tell, they are only capable of extremely low emissions and low & slow burns but not much gain in BTUs or efficiency.  Several non-catylatic wood stoves are more efficient.  I've gotten a lot of input and suggestion. I hope no one has gotten hot under the collar and I value *ALL* your opinions. A piece of wood only contains a certain amount of heat energy and it doesn't matter how slow or fast you burn it. Whether it's 75,000 BTU/hour for 10 hours or 25,000 BTU/hour for 30 hours.  I have set a budget in Canadian dollars and I could certainly spend more but can't justify it. I'm going to revisit some home centres and wood stove dealers this week and see if I can get some better prices on some premium brand stoves but ultimately, if they don't fall at or below my budget, it won't be going in the back if the truck.
> Unfortunately, I won't know if I made the right choice until this time next year. Why purchase now you might ask? I want to take advantage of the sales, install the whole thing in the summer when I'm not allowed to cut wood, test fire it and then concentrate on the following years wood supply. I also have some reno work to do before I install the stove and chimney.


I'm obligated to point out the efficiency numbers you are referencing for the "more efficient" are LHV numbers.  Do yourself a favor and ask to have the HHV efficiency numbers.  You will find that typically the LHV efficiency is up to 9% greater than HHV numbers.  I do not believe there is a non catalyst equipped stove that is more efficient than 90% or more of the catalytic models on the market.

Thank you 
BKVP


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## Squisher (Jan 1, 2017)

I burn softwoods. Fir mostly, as in 80% plus. Some spruce and pine, birch, and larch make up the rest. 

I get consistent overnight burns that are down to coals, about eight hrs out of the time the heat varies greatly from intensely hot (600-700stovetop)while settling in a new load to very little heat (under 300) towards the end. 4-6hrs of quite intense heat if I'm wanting it to keep the house toasty.  I burn in full load cycles so I load the firebox full heat things right up and then damp it down with the air control to settle in for a decent burn time.  I push my stove hard during the day and heat my house up to the point of overheated and then I settle in my nighttime load for a good long burn and coal up time and by morning I have lots of coals and the house has cooled down to reasonable and we're off to the races again. So my heating as a whole is a big daily cycle too. 

People will define burn time in all sorts of ways. Some as only the time the stove really puts out useable heat, to those who define it as how long the fire will go while still having enough coals and heat to throw on full size splits and take off again still. So it varies a lot 'burn time'. A lot to do with how long of a burn time you can get besides the design of the unit is your wood obviously, then your setup(chimney), and finally your technique. 

I've achieved longer burns over 12hrs with my summit with Norway maple last winter. Coaled up,forever. Useable heat was not much for the last 1/3 of that time though probably.


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## begreen (Jan 1, 2017)

BKVP said:


> I'm obligated to point out the efficiency numbers you are referencing for the "more efficient" are LHV numbers.  Do yourself a favor and ask to have the HHV efficiency numbers.  You will find that typically the LHV efficiency is up to 9% greater than HHV numbers.  I do not believe there is a non catalyst equipped stove that is more efficient than 90% or more of the catalytic models on the market.


Wittus TwinFire?
http://www.popularmechanics.com/hom...hlon-finalist-wittus-xeoos-twinfire-16144875/


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## Squisher (Jan 1, 2017)

BKVP said:


> I'm obligated to point out the efficiency numbers you are referencing for the "more efficient" are LHV numbers.  Do yourself a favor and ask to have the HHV efficiency numbers.  You will find that typically the LHV efficiency is up to 9% greater than HHV numbers.  I do not believe there is a non catalyst equipped stove that is more efficient than 90% or more of the catalytic models on the market.
> 
> Thank you
> BKVP



Well seeing as how you jumped in with that at what sort of btu output is that efficiency you're referencing being measured at?


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## Squisher (Jan 1, 2017)

To the OP it's easy to get caught up in the hype of it here, as you can see.  Lol 

Fwiw I think the century you were looking at or drolet recommended earlier by Begreen would be capable heaters.


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 2, 2017)

BKVP said:


> I'm obligated to point out the efficiency numbers you are referencing for the "more efficient" are LHV numbers.  Do yourself a favor and ask to have the HHV efficiency numbers.  You will find that typically the LHV efficiency is up to 9% greater than HHV numbers.  I do not believe there is a non catalyst equipped stove that is more efficient than 90% or more of the catalytic models on the market.
> 
> Thank you
> BKVP


That's why I'm finding the specs so confusing.
So if we are going to have another kick at the cat, the Blaze King Sirocco 20, to which I have a written quote, has a HHV of 77%, a heat output of 28,780 BTU/hour on high and costs $3274 Canadian. A Century FW3000 also has a HHV of 77%, a heat output of 34,400 btu/hour on high and only costs $1000 Canadian (on sale now for $840). Now the Century has a 0.5 cu.ft. larger fire box at 2.4 which accounts for the slightly higher btu output but check out the HHV efficiency numbers, both 77%!  Thank you for bringing this to my attention. As far as I'm concerned now, Blaze Kings are selling for approximately 200% - 250% more then what they are worth and require more maintenance to boot.


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## Squisher (Jan 2, 2017)

Full disclosure seeing how I've been ranting and rumbling a bit it may seem like I dislike cat stoves or BK's but I don't at all. My decision had come down to not being able to fit a king king on my basement flue as it seemed at the time to be the only unit capable of the output I was looking for. If I could've accomadated a 8" flue on my interior masonry chimney somehow I may well have gone with a king.  Could a princess have worked out well for me instead?  Probably?  Possibly?  I was worried I wasn't going to have the oomph I would need.  

Kiss simplicity of a stove like my summit vs a cat was something I was weighing back and forth on before that. I get both sides of it. 

The decision I made has worked out well for me given my scenario.


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 2, 2017)

Squisher said:


> To the OP it's easy to get caught up in the hype of it here, as you can see.  Lol
> 
> Fwiw I think the century you were looking at or drolet recommended earlier by Begreen would be capable heaters.


I think you are correct. Providing it's not spewing smoke like a boosted diesel truck, $1000 - $1500 is more than enough cash to secure a good wood stove.


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## Squisher (Jan 2, 2017)

eastcoastcanada said:


> That's why I'm finding the specs so confusing.
> So if we are going to have another kick at the cat, the Blaze King Sirocco 20, to which I have a written quote, has a HHV of 77%, a heat output of 28,780 BTU/hour on high and costs $3274 Canadian. A Century FW3000 also has a HHV of 77%, a heat output of 34,400 btu/hour on high and only costs $1000 Canadian (on sale now for $840). Now the Century has a 0.5 cu.ft. larger fire box at 2.4 which accounts for the slightly higher btu output but check out the HHV efficiency numbers, both 77%!  Thank you for bringing this to my attention. As far as I'm concerned now, Blaze Kings are selling for approximately 200% - 250% what they are worth and require more maintenance to boot.



Heh man. You've come onboard here for a day and while I don't barely know you that's some pretty bold statements about a very well respected maker of high end products. I never meant to imply in my stating a cat wasn't for me that I don't think highly of them and respect the technology greatly. Different people want/need different things out of their stoves.


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## Squisher (Jan 2, 2017)

Just so you know how stand up a company they are. BKVP isn't just some guys clever username. It's BK's VP. That's how involved they are with their customers and their stoves in general it would seem. That's why I asked him that question on btu output, because he will know. 

You can't fairly compare their pricing with a budget type stove.


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 2, 2017)

Squisher said:


> Heh man. You've come onboard here for a day and while I don't barely know you that's some pretty bold statements about a very well respected maker of high end products. I never meant to imply in my stating a cat wasn't for me that I don't think highly of them and respect the technology greatly. Different people want/need different things out of their stoves.





Squisher said:


> Just so you know how stand up a company they are. BKVP isn't just some guys clever username. It's BK's VP. That's how involved they are with their customers and their stoves in general it would seem. That's why I asked him that question on btu output, because he will know.
> 
> You can't fairly compare their pricing with a budget type stove.



I meant no disrespect, really. Squisher, I may have only been here for a day or two but I've been walking for 40 years and I don't pay the ice cream guy $10 dollars more to add and extra soup of ice cream to a $5 icecream cone.  I'm trying to make a purchase decision based on a budget of no more than $2500 Canadian. I found the LHV and HHV listings to be confusing and inconsistent but BKVP pointed out that HHV is the number I should be using to compare apples to apples. I appreciated that information and upon looking into it further, I noticed that at least the BK Sirocco 20 was no more efficient than the simalarly sized Nepoleon, Drolet or Century models I was considering. I'm sure BK is a very good company, the local dealer praised them for their customer support but why would I spend $2200 more on a stove just because I can turn it down so low the fire lasts twice as long but gives out half the heat while doing so?
As mentioned earlier,  I have a newer home and I only want to offset my heating costs on the coldest days & nights but I also want to see the fire. Last I checked, a BK turned way down low for max burn time, was not that appealing to stare at.
I'm really sorry I've struck a cord with some of you here but I believe I have made my decision in regards to BK wood stoves. They are simply out of my budget and not on my radar, there are too many great alternatives out there for significantly less money. When I opted not to purchase a Honda snowblower last year, it was not because I didn't have any respect for Honda as a brand. It was simply because I believed that a Yamaha snowblower could do just as good a job for significantly less investment. The same rules apply to all purchases, even wood stoves.


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## JA600L (Jan 2, 2017)

I was at home depot today and checked out the Englander NC30. For the most part I was impressed.  It is definitely no frills next to my Ideal Steel or Quadra Fire. Both of my stoves are made out of thicker steel.  It sits really low and the door latch seems kind of cheap.  However,  it sure appears like a solid heater. 

I would buy one in a heartbeat if I only had a $1000 budget. For a little more than twice that money I got a lot better engineered and built stove with better efficiency.

It's like anything else in life.  People don't buy the basic car they need.  They spend more and get the one they want.  If you are happy with a basic reliable woodstove then get one. If you want more options and higher efficiency spend more money. I'm pretty sure you won't be disappointed either way.


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## bcrtops (Jan 2, 2017)

Good thread & discussion.  It has been interesting.
Now-----------keep in the forefront of your mind the hearth you need (that Englander requires some kind of "R" value hearth) & the clearances to combustibles on the units you are looking at.  
Happy hunting & let us know what you end up with!

As an aside:  I will say this about the BK's -- They are one of the few stove builders that use a dealer supply system, yet maintain a very healthy Customer Service relationship at the factory level.  If I were currently in the market for a stove, I would have to take a serious look at them.  Only the "cultist" mentality of a lot of the owners bothers me -- sometimes, almost, to the point of not even looking at them (the stoves, not the owners).


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## Woody Stover (Jan 2, 2017)

bcrtops said:


> Only the "cultist" mentality of a lot of the owners bothers me -- sometimes, almost, to the point of not even looking at them


You VILL drink ze koolaid und follow ze lemmings over ze cliff....und you vill LIKE it! 


eastcoastcanada said:


> I'm trying to make a purchase decision based on a budget


Bear in mind that this is a long-term purchase. What may seem like a lot more money up front will be spread over many years of ownership. Remember the old saw..."The bitter taste of low quality remains, long after the sweetness of a low price is forgotten."


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## BKVP (Jan 2, 2017)

Please reference this Federal EPA list for HHV values.

https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2013-08/documents/certifiedwood.pdf


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## kennyp2339 (Jan 2, 2017)

Woody Stover said:


> You VILL drink ze koolaid und follow ze lemmings over ze cliff....und you vill LIKE it


no we all eat rice pudding and leave packed log cradles at the foot of our beds


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## kennyp2339 (Jan 2, 2017)

JA600L said:


> I would buy one in a heartbeat if I only had a $1000 budget. For a little more than twice that money I got a lot better engineered and built stove with better efficiency.


My best friend had a NC30 in his old house, he listened to me for 3 years brag about my BK (cult bragging) when he bought his new place he didn't even stove shop, he went strait to home depot and got another NC30, he said clearly the stove proved it self to him and that's all he needed, I kinda of agree to his method of thinking, its really a great work horse, heats his 2400 sqft center hall colonial from the living room / kitchen (attached open floor plan) perfectly , actually sometimes to good. As for the door latch on them, no issues with either of his nc30's. Its really a great stove even if your not on a budget. When I got to my next place I'm bringing the princess, but I also need to figure on a second stove, the Englander is on the top 5 stoves to consider.


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 2, 2017)

BKVP said:


> Please reference this Federal EPA list for HHV values.
> 
> https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2013-08/documents/certifiedwood.pdf


I've seen this document. There are a lot of wood stoves on here with no efficiency ratings at all whichbis very puzzling. One thing stands out....BK has really low emmisions.


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## VirginiaIron (Jan 2, 2017)

Are emissions related to efficiency? Do more emissions means less efficiency?


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## bcrtops (Jan 2, 2017)

Woody Stover said:


> You VILL drink ze koolaid und follow ze lemmings over ze cliff....und you vill LIKE it!
> Bear in mind that this is a long-term purchase. What may seem like a lot more money up front will be spread over many years of ownership. Remember the old saw..."The bitter taste of low quality remains, long after the sweetness of a low price is forgotten."



Well................the Woodstock owners are pretty cultist too!  Just not as many of them, so not quite as annoying!
I would not say that all the inexpensive stoves are of "low quality", either.  Some of the simple designs will likely have less long term maintenance than the overly complicated expensive stoves.


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 2, 2017)

VirginiaIron said:


> Are emissions related to efficiency? Do more emissions means less efficiency?


I'm pretty sure it would be. Essentially, any emmisions would be remaining unutilized fuel. There are lesser wood stoves on the market with emmisions near the top of the epa regulations at 3.6, 3.9 even 4.5 but they all have efficencies around 75% and 77% HHV.
Going back the the Quadrafire Mellenium wood stoves because I think it's an impressive non-catylatic stove...
The Quadrafire Mellenium 4300 is rated at 78.5% (LHV or HHV?) and a pretty impressive 1.1 g/hr exhaust.
A Timberwolf Economizer 2300 is rated at 83.9% (LHV or HHV?)  but has emmisions around 2.8 g/hr.
There appears to be a 6% different between LHV and HHV so giving Quadrafire the advantage and assuming Timberwolf is using LHV to make the stove look better, that leaves the Timberwolf at 77.9%. That's only a 0.6% difference.
Keep in mind here, the 'famous' Blaze King 'King' is rated at 82% HHV but has emmisions of 1.76 g/hr. Other BK'S have 0.8 g/hr emmisions but are 75% HHV efficient. It appearS there is no direct relationship between emmisions and efficiency.


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## bcrtops (Jan 2, 2017)

VirginiaIron said:


> Are emissions related to efficiency? Do more emissions means less efficiency?



Yes.
However, the stove design often "gets in the way" of seeing a direct correlation, thereby being a general rule not an absolute rule (correlation).

E.g. Wittus "Twinfire" w/ 90+% efficiency & 2.4 gr./hr
vs.
Woodstock "Absolute" w/ 77% efficiency & 0.5 gr./hr.
(Does not appear to make sense = about stove design)


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## VirginiaIron (Jan 2, 2017)

There are so many factors in deciding the correct heating device for the particular individual/family. I hope our decision is not fuelish over time.


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 2, 2017)

Also, with regards to the catylatic wood stove. My Blaze King dealer said that they can get fussy on warmer days because the flue temperature and outside temperature are closer. Quite often we have -10 degrees C and the very next morning it's 4 or 5 degrees C. He explained.....if you stoke it up for a 20, 30 or 40 hour burn (depending on model) it works great when it's cold and calm outside but when it gets warm the next day and gets breezy because of a southerly warm front, I will have to turn it up on high so it will draft properly but it wastes wood because it's warm outside and you don't need the intense heat. So if the price wasn't enough of a deterant, that was.

Is there an online source for Pacific Energy, Quadrafire or other premium brands? I just feel that the local dealers are gouging and if I can get that Quadrafire down $400 - $500, I would just get it.


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## Squisher (Jan 2, 2017)

eastcoastcanada said:


> I meant no disrespect, really. Squisher, I may have only been here for a day or two but I've been walking for 40 years and I don't pay the ice cream guy $10 dollars more to add and extra soup of ice cream to a $5 icecream cone.  I'm trying to make a purchase decision based on a budget of no more than $2500 Canadian. I found the LHV and HHV listings to be confusing and inconsistent but BKVP pointed out that HHV is the number I should be using to compare apples to apples. I appreciated that information and upon looking into it further, I noticed that at least the BK Sirocco 20 was no more efficient than the simalarly sized Nepoleon, Drolet or Century models I was considering. I'm sure BK is a very good company, the local dealer praised them for their customer support but why would I spend $2200 more on a stove just because I can turn it down so low the fire lasts twice as long but gives out half the heat while doing so?
> As mentioned earlier,  I have a newer home and I only want to offset my heating costs on the coldest days & nights but I also want to see the fire. Last I checked, a BK turned way down low for max burn time, was not that appealing to stare at.
> I'm really sorry I've struck a cord with some of you here but I believe I have made my decision in regards to BK wood stoves. They are simply out of my budget and not on my radar, there are too many great alternatives out there for significantly less money. When I opted not to purchase a Honda snowblower last year, it was not because I didn't have any respect for Honda as a brand. It was simply because I believed that a Yamaha snowblower could do just as good a job for significantly less investment. The same rules apply to all purchases, even wood stoves.



That's cool. I didn't mean to sound so harsh when I re-read. I just took exception to you saying BK's were 200-250% overpriced. Seemed flippant to me was all.  And I get not wanting a cat I made that call myself.  I kind of stood up and shouted a bit earlier too when a BK was being brought forward as 'the only smart choice'. I don't like bashing of either side of the coin. Part of the beauty of woodstoves, there's lots of them, and lots of different people, and lots of different homes. The right stove for any given situation is the one that works for that particular purchaser. 

I would disagree that 'the same rules apply to all purchases'.  Different purchases require the consideration of different factors. Therefore different rules. 

The biggest factor in efficiency is going to be how the stove is set up and run and what quality of fuel is stuffed in it. Don't get hung up on a percentage point here or there that may never actually affect anything in a real world setting. 

I wish you well with whatever stove you end up with. The beauty of wood heat can't be beat. That's why I said way earlier I think you'd be happy with most any modern stove. I've been happy with wood heat my whole life and before last year I never had a modern appliance.


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## VirginiaIron (Jan 2, 2017)

eastcoastcanada said:


> ... Is there an online source for Pacific Energy, Quadrafire or other premium brands? I just feel that the local dealers are gouging and if I can get that Quadrafire down $400 - $500, I would just get it.



IMHO- A tight control on the product is probably how companies maintain their retail. There has to be something else of value to offer other than the product if you can go online and reduce your costs from a competitor or a big box store. For us, Lowes offered peace of mind where dealers can be fickle in the way they stand behind a product.


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## VirginiaIron (Jan 2, 2017)

eastcoastcanada said:


> ...Is there an online source for Pacific Energy....




Not to say I exhausted all avenues, but I could not find one that would be cheaper than purchasing locally. I looked at a PE Summit with chrome legs and accents from a dealer in VA. The stove was very attractive. The slightly used floor model was on sale for $250+- less than the new model. My observation indicated this slightly used floor model had a warped/damaged/deteriorated baffle that would have to be replaced. The sales representative seemed very knowledgeable about the product until I inquired about the failed/detached metal piece/panel; which assumably required replacement at an additional cost. 

Intrigued by my observation, I wondered how much use a floor model could experience when there are about two dozen other floor models being used.


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## Squisher (Jan 2, 2017)

Or why the baffle would be damaged?  Improper set up or operation (as in severe overfiring) are the only reasons I could see causing it. I run my stove hot, and watch that big wide baffle like a hawk in my summit. No issue for me yet but only second year, but that's with 24/7 heating. A floor model being warped?  I'd pass.


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## Niko (Jan 2, 2017)

I know my stove is a cat stove, but i didnt start a cat vs none cat argument.  My original and still biggest number one factor was and stil is burn times when buying a stove.  It sucks that canada prices are way off but one would think they could find the correct price. 

I dont know what low heat output is on everyone elses stoves but ill explain mine.  My stove does not drope below 350 degrees for 24 hrs and this is with my stove lets say with 30-40 percent of its air open and less.  I never run it above 500-600 stove top temps.  The higher temps are when their is more wood so their more smoke, less temps are less wood.   Sometimes ill adjust more air or less as the wood species and moisture willl factor that.   Like i said before my house is 3,000 square feet with many rooms and to big living rooms one on each floor.  My downstairs nevers see temps below 80 degrees.  With some better insualtion and fixing all the air leaks (in attic) i wont have to run the stove even that hard so ill propably get 30-40 hrs on it.  

The war of cat vs non vat was started way before my time and i dont really care much for it either.  People draw assumption on others and thats fine i do also.  Im of the boat greek 1st generation and my mother and father are stubborn people.  Excellent well valued, honorable people, will help anyone time, but dont ever tell them their is something better or at least a way easier way to do it?  They feel like a hard days work is the only way to work.  i try to throw in efficientcy so i have time to do other things.  

When it comes to wood i dont look at it( hard work or no work)that way as the stove is here to help me, not for me to help it.  So that being said it helps me that i dont have to load it as much.  

OP it seem its the budget that has you looking at others stoves.  Have you exhausted all dealers options making sure you are getting the best prices?  I am sure you can find a left over unit as the warmer season starts to come play.


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## Squisher (Jan 2, 2017)

So why do you keep bringing up your experience with a stove in a thread where it's irrelevant?  

You basically took a big swipe at all non BK owners earlier with your 'wow you load your stove 3-4 times a day comment' and then going on about how the BK is the only stove that 'makes sense'. 

You've made your case. Why not let it lie?

Im glad your happy with your stove, I have no desire to try to convince you or anyone else otherwise.

Did you read any of the recent comments from the OP?  It's not just budget that has him looking elsewhere, fireview is important to him, concerns over temperature fluctuations from freezing to positive temps causing output/chimney/draft issues is also a concern. No one stove works for everyone in every situation. 

We are warming up a bit today from -16c overnight and looking towards a low tonight of -20 to -25. My summit will be pumping out the heat all day and most of the night to keep my home toasty warm.


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 2, 2017)

VirginiaIron said:


> Not to say I exhausted all avenues, but I could not find one that would be cheaper than purchasing locally. I looked at a PE Summit with chrome legs and accents from a dealer in VA. The stove was very attractive. The slightly used floor model was on sale for $250+- less than the new model. My observation indicated this slightly used floor model had a warped/damaged/deteriorated baffle that would have to be replaced. The sales representative seemed very knowledgeable about the product until I inquired about the failed/detached metal piece/panel; which assumably required replacement at an additional cost.
> 
> Intrigued by my observation, I wondered how much use a floor model could experience when there are about two dozen other floor models being used.


That doesn't sound good. I would imagine the floor models are being run on low to avoid cooking the customers.


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## bholler (Jan 2, 2017)

eastcoastcanada said:


> That doesn't sound good. I would imagine the floor models are being run on low to avoid cooking the customers.


There is nothing wrong with them being run on low but you would be loosing the warantee I am sure.


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## Squisher (Jan 2, 2017)

Virginiairon had stated the baffle looked warped/deteriorated. That doesn't happen from running low.


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## bholler (Jan 2, 2017)

And honestly I don't get why the dealer would be worried about changing outside temps bks with their automatic thermostat will deal with those swings better than most so I don't see that as a reason to avoid bk.


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 2, 2017)

Niko said:


> I know my stove is a cat stove, but i didnt start a cat vs none cat argument.  My original and still biggest number one factor was and stil is burn times when buying a stove.  It sucks that canada prices are way off but one would think they could find the correct price.
> 
> I dont know what low heat output is on everyone elses stoves but ill explain mine.  My stove does not drope below 350 degrees for 24 hrs and this is with my stove lets say with 30-40 percent of its air open and less.  I never run it above 500-600 stove top temps.  The higher temps are when their is more wood so their more smoke, less temps are less wood.   Sometimes ill adjust more air or less as the wood species and moisture willl factor that.   Like i said before my house is 3,000 square feet with many rooms and to big living rooms one on each floor.  My downstairs nevers see temps below 80 degrees.  With some better insualtion and fixing all the air leaks (in attic) i wont have to run the stove even that hard so ill propably get 30-40 hrs on it.
> 
> ...


I've been keeping my eye open but no luck yet.


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## Squisher (Jan 2, 2017)

Niko said:


> I know my stove is a cat stove, but i didnt start a cat vs none cat argument.  My original and still biggest number one factor was and stil is burn times when buying a stove.  It sucks that canada prices are way off but one would think they could find the correct price.
> 
> I dont know what low heat output is on everyone elses stoves but ill explain mine.  My stove does not drope below 350 degrees for 24 hrs and this is with my stove lets say with 30-40 percent of its air open and less.  I never run it above 500-600 stove top temps.  The higher temps are when their is more wood so their more smoke, less temps are less wood.   Sometimes ill adjust more air or less as the wood species and moisture willl factor that.   Like i said before my house is 3,000 square feet with many rooms and to big living rooms one on each floor.  My downstairs nevers see temps below 80 degrees.  With some better insualtion and fixing all the air leaks (in attic) i wont have to run the stove even that hard so ill propably get 30-40 hrs on it.
> 
> ...



Niko. I was going to pm you but this has all been public so I'll leave this public too, whether appropriate or not I guess I'll find out.

You have my apologies if I mis-understood your intentions. To me it seemed an attempt to push one stove above them all and degrade the thread into a pointless cat vs non-cat debate. Again if I overreacted and misinterpreted your posting you have my sincerest apologies.

To the rest here at the Hearth I apologize too for my ranting.

And lastly to the OP my apologies too, you've been very patient and understanding of the disruption of your thread. Kudos to you.

Now like the new year, onwards and upwards.

Let's get back to finding the OP a great stove appropriate for their situation.


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## Squisher (Jan 2, 2017)

bholler said:


> And honestly I don't get why the dealer would be worried about changing outside temps bks with their automatic thermostat will deal with those swings better than most so I don't see that as a reason to avoid bk.



I think the concern was if it warmed up dramatically and the stove then damps itself back a bunch to not overheat for the setting, combined with a weakening of draft could lead to creosote issues?  Shouldn't be an issue with proper wood I would think.


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 2, 2017)

Squisher said:


> So why do you keep bringing up your experience with a stove in a thread where it's irrelevant?
> 
> You basically took a big swipe at all non BK owners earlier with your 'wow you load your stove 3-4 times a day comment' and then going on about how the BK is the only stove that 'makes sense'.
> 
> ...


Geez, that's cold! I've never seen it go below -16C here on the east coast of NL but the wind almost never stops. Sustained 100 kph gusting to 120 kph 2 nights ago and not that uncommon. This is why I need something that runs pretty hot during a burn cycle.


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 2, 2017)

Squisher said:


> Niko. I was going to pm you but this has all been public so I'll leave this public too, whether appropriate or not I guess I'll find out.
> 
> You have my apologies if I mis-understood your intentions. To me it seemed an attempt to push one stove above them all and degrade the thread into a pointless cat vs non-cat debate. Again if I overreacted and misinterpreted your posting you have my sincerest apologies.
> 
> ...


Thanks! My apologies also for confusing or angering anyone.
I value all the opinions here and the ranting back and forth has me fired up. Tomorrow I'm going back to all my local wood stove dealer to look for price cuts. You all have very valid points for the stoves you previously and currently own and I would be a fool not to listen. There are many fantastic wood stoves out there so let's see what happens.


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 2, 2017)

Squisher said:


> I think the concern was if it warmed up dramatically and the stove then damps itself back a bunch to not overheat for the setting, combined with a weakening of draft could lead to creosote issues?  Shouldn't be an issue with proper wood I would think.


That's exactly what the dealer guy was talking about. On a regular basis, our temps can swing 20c, on occasion 25c and it blows all the time. He mentioned a weak draft when set on low with a dramatic temperature rise outside, not heat output.


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## JA600L (Jan 2, 2017)

kennyp2339 said:


> My best friend had a NC30 in his old house, he listened to me for 3 years brag about my BK (cult bragging) when he bought his new place he didn't even stove shop, he went strait to home depot and got another NC30, he said clearly the stove proved it self to him and that's all he needed, I kinda of agree to his method of thinking, its really a great work horse, heats his 2400 sqft center hall colonial from the living room / kitchen (attached open floor plan) perfectly , actually sometimes to good. As for the door latch on them, no issues with either of his nc30's. Its really a great stove even if your not on a budget. When I got to my next place I'm bringing the princess, but I also need to figure on a second stove, the Englander is on the top 5 stoves to consider.



I have no gripe with the stove, but as long as I have more money to spend I'm going to get something with a little more evened out burn characteristics. A hybrid or cat stove is what I will spend my money on.


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## bholler (Jan 2, 2017)

eastcoastcanada said:


> That's exactly what the dealer guy was talking about. On a regular basis, our temps can swing 20c, on occasion 25c and it blows all the time. He mentioned a weak draft when set on low with a dramatic temperature rise outside, not heat output.


Yes but you would have that with any stove and a stove with an automatic thermostat would do a better job of dealing with that than a stove without one.  I still dont see why he said it would be more of an issue with a bk.


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## Squisher (Jan 2, 2017)

Because the BK will automatically dampen itself down as the temperature increases?  Vs other stoves that won't/don't and would just continue to burn hot?

It seems a odd statement to me too. Proper wood and operation are what dictate creosote accumulation. I see as I'm sure you have too bholler that creosote issues are not specific to a stove, more the operator and the wood. The system as a whole can play a part too.


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## bholler (Jan 2, 2017)

Squisher said:


> Because the BK will automatically dampen itself down as the temperature increases? Vs other stoves that won't/don't and would just continue to burn hot?


yes but it is fine to do that with a bk which is why I don't see the issue.


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## Squisher (Jan 2, 2017)

Well I've never run one but I wonder if the stove damped itself down enough that the cat fell out of the active zone and no one was monitoring it if then it would/could produce creosote into the chimney?


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## Niko (Jan 2, 2017)

No worries at all fellas, Im here to learn and have fun.  Im not a salesmen on commision lol. i truly beleive the stove i have is just plain awesome.  Not saying the other stoves are not at all.  I would love to have a big ass fireplace insert to watch on christmas day drinking a nice beer, i just dont want to heat my whole house with it. 

As far as the stove adjusting itself yes it does.  Might not be as perfect as one says it is.  But its pretty cool.  The stove does not go out of control.  You can dial the air to a certain amount and thats all the is let in, just make sure your in the active zone and close the byPass once You are.  No electric or motors so u dont have to worry about power outtages.  The most crucial part is dry wood the rest takes care of itself. 

If i lived in canada i would drive to the closest dealer in the USA to get one for the way better price.  Make a couple day trip out of it and come back.  Your gonna be heating with wood for the next 10 years or so until you downsize i think you said earlier in the posts. 

So if we do some math let say you use the stove 4 months out of the year.  

4 months x 30 days=120 days
1 load a day= 120 loads for 120 days.

If we use something else lets say that you load 3x a day.
4 months x 30 days=120 days
3 loads a day=360 loads for 120 days.

Now factor in the over priced Canadian prices (not gonna do the math on this dont wanna mess it up but someone can help me if they can)
Then take all the extra time for loading, splitting, stacking and then factor in what your time is worth. 

I THINK THE BLAZE KING COMES IN WAY, WAY CHEAPER, because you are doing way less of everything, 

Cause id rather be working and making real money then spending extra time loading my stove.

This is not meant to anger anyone just trying to help draw a picture for everyone.


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## Squisher (Jan 2, 2017)

Your numbers are skewed incredibly though. You don't burn three times as much wood to do the same heating just because you load three times instead of once. It just doesn't work that way. Wood has btus and stoves release those btus.  If a low and slow delivery time works for your set up a cat could be a great option.


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## bholler (Jan 2, 2017)

Niko said:


> Then take all the extra time for loading, splitting, stacking and then factor in what your time is worth.


I still don't get why you think you will be saving on the cutting splitting and stacking yes you can get really long burn times but at lower btu output.  A bk is only a little bit more efficient than non cats so you are not getting many more btus out of each piece of wood.  Yes with the huge firebox of your king you can get more btus over a longer time than a smaller stove but you are still using just about the same amount of wood.


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## Niko (Jan 2, 2017)

Took a picture to show you the magic.  No flames but the stove top temp is around 400.


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## Niko (Jan 2, 2017)

bholler said:


> I still don't get why you think you will be saving on the cutting splitting and stacking yes you can get really long burn times but at lower btu output.  A bk is only a little bit more efficient than non cats so you are not getting many more btus out of each piece of wood.  Yes with the huge firebox of your king you can get more btus over a longer time than a smaller stove but you are still using just about the same amount of wood.



Even the bigger boxes dont compare in burn times.  Im not being unfair and comparing a 2 cu box.


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## Squisher (Jan 2, 2017)

Dude. I extended the olive branch, but you just seem intent on turning it into a cat vs noncat debate. Why?

You don't even seem to want to discuss things in a logical sense?

Heat output, wood use, burn time, efficiency.  You're just popping all over the place bud and making no real sense.


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## bholler (Jan 2, 2017)

Niko said:


> Even the bigger boxes dont compare in burn times. Im not being unfair and comparing a 2 cu box.


I am not talking about burn times I am talking about btu output.  Yes with your stove turned down it will burn longer but that does not mean you are getting more btus.  There is only a certain amount of available heat in each piece of wood.  If you house only needs a small amount then yes a bk where you can turn it way down and stretch out those btus makes sense.  But not all of us have that.  So if your heat requirements are high then you will have that stove turned up to meet that heat demand and your long burn goes away.  

I am not saying there is anything wrong with a bk at all but you are not going to cut your wood use age in third over another modern stove unless you were overheating your house with that other stove.  They dont make much more btus than other stoves they can just stretch out those btus over a longer time.


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## begreen (Jan 2, 2017)

The OP has indicated they are looking for a quality, value stove. Hopefully today they have some time to see some of these stoves Points have been made, no need to keep on pounding them in. Until we hear back from eastcoastcanada with a decision or more questions, let's chill.


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## Niko (Jan 2, 2017)

begreen said:


> The OP has indicated they are looking for a quality, value stove. Hopefully today they have some time to see some of these stoves Points have been made, no need to keep on pounding them in. Until we hear back from eastcoastcanada with a decision or more questions, let's chill.




Im having fun and learning so I am 100 percent chill I hope I'm not making anybody mad.


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## Niko (Jan 2, 2017)

bholler said:


> I am not talking about burn times I am talking about btu output.  Yes with your stove turned down it will burn longer but that does not mean you are getting more btus.  There is only a certain amount of available heat in each piece of wood.  If you house only needs a small amount then yes a bk where you can turn it way down and stretch out those btus makes sense.  But not all of us have that.  So if your heat requirements are high then you will have that stove turned up to meet that heat demand and your long burn goes away.
> 
> I am not saying there is anything wrong with a bk at all but you are not going to cut your wood use age in third over another modern stove unless you were overheating your house with that other stove.  They dont make much more btus than other stoves they can just stretch out those btus over a longer time.




Yes I understand about the low and high output. And even at full output you can only use a certain amount of that heat cause the rest is going up the chimney right?  I understand if a house is older and more leaky but the OP did not state that is this thread unless I am making a mistake.  I'm only trying to explain my stove and the experience I have with it.  

I can turn my baby up all the way and my downstairs will get 95 degrees+ on 10 degree nights and I'll still get 12 hrs out of it.  

What I should of done is just stated my experience with my stove without giving its name. 

I'm curious maybe we can start another thread so we don't ruin this one.  Or maybe their is a thread that discusses burn times at full blast and burn times in low.    Because to my knowledge all stoves have both functions.  Would that be ok to start another thread?


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## bholler (Jan 2, 2017)

Niko said:


> I'm curious maybe we can start another thread so we don't ruin this one. Or maybe their is a thread that discusses burn times at full blast and burn times in low. Because to my knowledge all stoves have both functions. Would that be ok to start another thread?


sure start a new thread and we can discuss it  but you are still missing the point that just because you get a longer burn time does not mean you are necessarily saving any wood.   You say you can turn your 4 cubic foot stove up all the way and get 12 hours.  Well I can turn mine up which is qute a bit smaller and get 6 to 8 hours easily depending on the wood I use as well so no wood real savings.


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## VirginiaIron (Jan 2, 2017)

This thread certainly has me thinking more about cat stoves.


Niko said:


> ... I'm curious maybe we can start another thread so we don't ruin this one...



Too late, lol-   Just kidding. I would like to see two new threads because the catalytic technology has certainly improved since I really did any research on them. I think it would do the industry good if there were the real life discussion about the cat technology  successes and fails. With the quad and this stove there was certainly a learning curve for us and I wonder if it had been a catalytic stove if we would have plugged/damaged the Catalyst  and voided the warranty within a month of operating it. (Edit #2:  I guess this was my subconscious attempt at a parting shot) For me, I don't feel comfortable enough purchasing the cat technology with an expected life cycle and then being bound to a proprietary replacement down the road, if applicable or still available.

Edit #1-  I read the whole thread but I missed begreen's comment about chilling, sorry.


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## Woody Stover (Jan 2, 2017)

eastcoastcanada said:


> Is there an online source for Pacific Energy, Quadrafire or other premium brands? I just feel that the local dealers are gouging and if I can get that Quadrafire down $400 - $500, I would just get it.


It will be a couple months before you can get a deal from a local retailer. Not sure how these prices compare to what you are seeing? http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/fswood.htm


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 2, 2017)

bholler said:


> There is nothing wrong with them being run on low but you would be loosing the warantee I am sure.


That's what I meant. I would imagine the store would be running all their stoves pretty low to avoid cooking customer so I was wondering how they managed to damage it. Must have been one hell of an over fire at some point.


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 2, 2017)

bholler said:


> Yes but you would have that with any stove and a stove with an automatic thermostat would do a better job of dealing with that than a stove without one.  I still dont see why he said it would be more of an issue with a bk.


Perhaps other BK owners can chime in here but my dealer had an Ashford 30 running on low and the guy grabbed the 6" pipe with his bare hand and left it there for several seconds, then I did it. It was significantly cooler than the non-catylatic stove next to it which was also running with its drafter closed (low). So....at least in my particular case, low flue temps along with warm outside air in conjunction with high winds, would cause the stove to operate poorly requiring me to turn it up. The bimetal spring reacts to ambient room temperature not drastically changing outside temps and wild barometric pressure changes as with high winds. Remember....the catylatic combustor chemically reacts with the particulate mater and reduces it's flash point so it will incinerate at the lower exhaust temperatures that the stove is capable of going down to.  I can only go by what the BK dealer in my area tells me, they are the experts but it all makes perfect sense to me. He said that the BKs were the best cat stoves on the market but they had a particular condition that was prevailant in out area.


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## begreen (Jan 2, 2017)

VirginiaIron said:


> This thread certainly has me thinking more about cat stoves.
> 
> 
> Too late, lol-   Just kidding. I would like to see two new threads because the catalytic technology has certainly improved since I really did any research on them. I think it would do the industry good if there were the real life discussion about the cat technology  successes and fails. With the quad and this stove there was certainly a learning curve for us and I wonder if it had been a catalytic stove if we would have plugged/damaged the Catalyst  and voided the warranty within a month of operating it. (Edit #2:  I guess this was my subconscious attempt at a parting shot) For me, I don't feel comfortable enough purchasing the cat technology with an expected life cycle and then being bound to a proprietary replacement down the road, if applicable or still available.
> ...


There are several past threads on this topic. Search on "cat vs". Not trying to discourage discussion on the topic, just trying to stay focussed on the OP's questions and needs.


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 2, 2017)

Niko said:


> No worries at all fellas, Im here to learn and have fun.  Im not a salesmen on commision lol. i truly beleive the stove i have is just plain awesome.  Not saying the other stoves are not at all.  I would love to have a big ass fireplace insert to watch on christmas day drinking a nice beer, i just dont want to heat my whole house with it.
> 
> As far as the stove adjusting itself yes it does.  Might not be as perfect as one says it is.  But its pretty cool.  The stove does not go out of control.  You can dial the air to a certain amount and thats all the is let in, just make sure your in the active zone and close the byPass once You are.  No electric or motors so u dont have to worry about power outtages.  The most crucial part is dry wood the rest takes care of itself.
> 
> ...


The low and slow burn of a BK would work for my newer home because of less heat loss but I simply don't have the money.


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 2, 2017)

My local Canadian Tire store carries a Timbed Ridge 50-TNC30 which is the twin to the Englander 30NCH. Large fire box, 75000 btu and low emmisions at 1.63 g/hr. There's a lot of love for that stove here on hearth.com and it's within my price range. I can get it from them for $1400 CAD but my local home depot had the actual Englander 30NCH for $998 CAD but are currently out of stock.


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## begreen (Jan 2, 2017)

The 30NC is a good stove that has earned a place in many homes here. What are Drolets going for in your neck of the woods?


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## Squisher (Jan 3, 2017)

I think the 30's a great looking stove brotherBart has a custom paint job on his that is really sharp I think. Can the HD get you one in in a timely fashion?


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## Woody Stover (Jan 3, 2017)

eastcoastcanada said:


> The low and slow burn of a BK would work for my newer home because of less heat loss but I simply don't have the money.


With a tight and well-insulated home, the temp swings and somewhat shorter burn times of a non-cat stove may not be as much of an issue...the house will retain heat for some time after stove output drops off. But you _did_ mention frequent wind, which will probably shorten the heat retention time of the house somewhat.


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 3, 2017)

Squisher said:


> I think the 30's a great looking stove brotherBart has a custom paint job on his that is really sharp I think. Can the HD get you one in in a timely fashion?


I'll find out today if Home Depot can order one in for me, the online shipping is $200. One thing that stands out is the 17" corner clearances. I'm putting the stove in the corner and that's a lot of clearance.


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## bholler (Jan 3, 2017)

eastcoastcanada said:


> I'll find out today if Home Depot can order one in for me, the online shipping is $200. One thing that stands out is the 17" corner clearances. I'm putting the stove in the corner and that's a lot of clearance.


it also has pretty high requirements for the hearth.  Shielding ect is obviously an area they saved money on to keep the cost down.


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 3, 2017)

begreen said:


> The 30NC is a good stove that has earned a place in many homes here. What are Drolets going for in your neck of the woods?


Drolets are available at almost every retailer here and hence they are the most commonly purhased stove. I can have any one of their extra large models for between $1250 and $1500 and they are more likely to go on sale. They have smaller corner clearances than the 30NC but the emmisions are on the high end of epa regs. The HT2000 was recommended here.


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 3, 2017)

bholler said:


> it also has pretty high requirements for the hearth.  Shielding ect is obviously an area they saved money on to keep the cost down.


That's a consideration for me because I don't want it stuck way out into the room and I don't want the sofa and love seat to melt!


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## begreen (Jan 3, 2017)

Englander has a new 3 cu ft stove  the 50 SSW02 that sells for under $1K here. If has simple hearth requirements and closer clearances.  I checked Canadian Tire but they only sell the model 50 TRSSW01 under the Timber Ridge brand. That would work for you. It's a 2.4 cu ft stove. Most reviews for it here are under the unofficial Englander Madison name. Home Depot Canada does not appear to have the new Englander stoves yet.


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 3, 2017)

I've decided to get a Pacific Energy Super 27. All black 'heritage' model on pedistal with fan can be had for $1899 Cdn.  When compared to other stoves of about the same size ranging from $1400 to $2400, the PE stood out as having superior construction quality and features, even compared to more expensive stoves from Quadrafire, Napoleon, Regency and Osburn.
Clearly I'm not as good a haggler as I thought as none of the dealers here in town would budge on their pricing for any stove brand. Still, if I have to pay sticker price, it would not bother me at all to buy the Super 27 because of it's tangible build quality and design. I feel the price is justified.


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## bcrtops (Jan 3, 2017)

eastcoastcanada said:


> I've decided to get a Pacific Energy Super 27. All black 'heritage' model on pedistal with fan can be had for $1899 Cdn.  When compared to other stoves of about the same size ranging from $1400 to $2400, the PE stood out as having superior construction quality and features, even compared to more expensive stoves from Quadrafire, Napoleon, Regency and Osburn.
> Clearly I'm not as good a haggler as I thought as none of the dealers here in town would budge on their pricing for any stove brand. Still, if I have to pay sticker price, it would not bother me at all to buy the Super 27 because of it's tangible build quality and design. I feel the price is justified.



Good reasoning & good choice!
Keep us updated on the install, 1st firing, etc.


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 3, 2017)

bcrtops said:


> Good reasoning & good choice!
> Keep us updated on the install, 1st firing, etc.


I certainly will.


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 3, 2017)

Thanks to all who chimed in here, it was more helpful then you'll ever know. I'm going to spend a lot of time around here quietly learning everything I can.
I'm so excited to pick up my stove tomorrow and it doesn't even have an engine in it!
Again, thank you all!


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## bcrtops (Jan 3, 2017)

eastcoastcanada said:


> Thanks to all who chimed in here, it was more helpful then you'll ever know. I'm going to spend a lot of time around here quietly learning everything I can.
> I'm so excited to pick up my stove tomorrow and it doesn't even have an engine in it!
> Again, thank you all!



Lots of good advice on the "engine" here too!
Installing yourself or getting it done by pro?


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## Woody Stover (Jan 3, 2017)

eastcoastcanada said:


> I've decided to get a Pacific Energy Super 27. All black 'heritage' model on pedistal with fan can be had for $1899 Cdn.  When compared to other stoves of about the same size ranging from $1400 to $2400, the PE stood out as having superior construction quality and features, even compared to more expensive stoves from Quadrafire, Napoleon, Regency and Osburn.
> Clearly I'm not as good a haggler as I thought as none of the dealers here in town would budge on their pricing for any stove brand. Still, if I have to pay sticker price, it would not bother me at all to buy the Super 27 because of it's tangible build quality and design. I feel the price is justified.





bcrtops said:


> Good reasoning & good choice!
> Keep us updated on the install, 1st firing, etc.


You won't regret spending a little extra up front. I bet you find even more features along the way that will confirm to you that you made a wise decision. Like bcrtops said, we want *lots* of pics and performance descriptions. We hung in there a long time on this thread...we deserve that much.


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 3, 2017)

Woody Stover said:


> You won't regret spending a little extra up front. I bet you find even more features along the way that will confirm to you that you made a wise decision. Like bcrtops said, we want *lots* of pics and performance descriptions. We hung in there a long time on this thread...we deserve that much.


Might be a while but absolutely!


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## Squisher (Jan 3, 2017)

Congratulations.  That's a fantastic choice IMO. I'm very happy with my super insert and my summit freestander too. Myself I like the simple functional style of the pedestal. 

With the fan that seems like a very fair price. I think you've done well.


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 3, 2017)

bcrtops said:


> Lots of good advice on the "engine" here too!
> Installing yourself or getting it done by pro?


Installing myself, I'm too particular to let someone else do it. My insurance company will allow it and send an inspector at no charge to verify compliance.


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## Squisher (Jan 3, 2017)

I assume you're putting in a class a chimney with connecting pipe. If at all possible keep it all straight and inside the building envelope as much as possible.


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 3, 2017)

Squisher said:


> I assume you're putting in a class a chimney with connecting pipe. If at all possible keep it all straight and inside the building envelope as much as possible.


Yes, Supervent by Selkirk. My situation doesn't allow me to keep it inside, I'll have to exit the wall with a wall support kit and go straight up through 16" eve. I'm having a buddy make up some 5/8" stainless bushings so the wall band bolts don't crush the vinyl siding. I'm a stickler for the details and often go above what is required.


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## Squisher (Jan 3, 2017)

I'm sure that'll work too as long as you have sufficient height. My basement stove dumps into a lined interior masonry chimney. Even with the 90's it works fine.


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 3, 2017)

Squisher said:


> I'm sure that'll work too as long as you have sufficient height. My basement stove dumps into a lined interior masonry chimney. Even with the 90's it works fine.


It's the prevailing method around here for decades. You just don't see masonry chimneys here anymore. A hasty look at the location tells me the chimney will be around 20 feet high from wall kit to regulation height above shingle line.


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## Squisher (Jan 3, 2017)

That should work then because the bit of extra over the 15' min will be largely negated by the 90's. 

Yah I wasn't suggesting building a masonry chimney for it. But you can go through the wall or straight up with connecting pipe through the ceiling/attic/ and out the roof with class A too.


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## begreen (Jan 5, 2017)

Are you up and running yet? Got pics?


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 5, 2017)

begreen said:


> Are you up and running yet? Got pics?


No, no chimney yet and I have to reno the room it's going in but here's something to tie you over.


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## Squisher (Jan 5, 2017)

Devil!  Dropping all these little pics here and there. Lol.


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 5, 2017)

My brother went with me to pick up the Super 27 today and he fell in love with the build quality.  He has a much larger home and the Summit would be perfect. I dropped the brochure off to him tonight and he's salivating!


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 11, 2017)

I've been preparing for the chimney install and have a quick question. I'm installing a prefab chimney and double wall connector inside. Pacific Energy recommends minimum 15 feet system height measured from base of stove. Taking in account all the rules, my chimney will have to be 18 feet from the wall tee up because of my roof slope which makes it just about 20 feet total. The double wall stainless steel connector kit is on the way.  My question is, should I install a damper in the connector pipe just in case I experience too much draft?


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## Squisher (Jan 11, 2017)

I would try it without first if it were me.  Unless it's gonna somehow cost to much in pipe to add after if you do need it.

Espescially because you're going through the wall I don't suspect you'll have excessive draft. Those two 90's will cost you draft.  I think your effective draft will be closer to the minimum of 15' when you account for the 90's.  

I've got right around 15' on my super insert straight up and fully insulated in a interior masonry chimney. No need for a damper.  And my summit in the basement is a 5.5" uninsulated liner in a interior masonry chimney too with about 23', so it has two 90's as well like your set up will. And no damper or need of one on it either.

Just my experience burning similar stoves.


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 11, 2017)

Squisher said:


> I would try it without first if it were me.  Unless it's gonna somehow cost to much in pipe to add after if you do need it.
> 
> Espescially because you're going through the wall I don't suspect you'll have excessive draft. Those two 90's will cost you draft.  I think your effective draft will be closer to the minimum of 15' when you account for the 90's.
> 
> ...


That sounds good. The damper section would have cost me an extra $50 but it's not the money, it's just planning. I wanted to avoid doing something twice.


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## bcrtops (Jan 11, 2017)

There have been times that I've wished for a damper.  I have a really good draft, even though the chimney is minimal, though straight up.  I have got accustomed to using the stove a bit different than most to avoid over-firing.  I never fully load the stove in the sense some do -- like filling up all the voids with small splits.  On the other hand -- I like dropping my cleaning brush all the way through from the top -- a damper would just be another point to clean more or less by hand -- though the old Fisher damper never got in the way much.  

Just go slow at first, learn your stove, & I think you'll be fine w/o a damper.


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 11, 2017)

bcrtops said:


> There have been times that I've wished for a damper.  I have a really good draft, even though the chimney is minimal, though straight up.  I have got accustomed to using the stove a bit different than most to avoid over-firing.  I never fully load the stove in the sense some do -- like filling up all the voids with small splits.  On the other hand -- I like dropping my cleaning brush all the way through from the top -- a damper would just be another point to clean more or less by hand -- though the old Fisher damper never got in the way much.
> 
> Just go slow at first, learn your stove, & I think you'll be fine w/o a damper.


Let's hope the stove is engineered to run really low. Even with the lever set to low, there's still a fairly large opening in the air feed. The dealer suggested that I first run the stove with the 4" rear knockout left in place but I may knock it out as per the instructions and use the slug to fab up a magnetic cover just in case of an emergency.


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## Squisher (Jan 11, 2017)

I can't imagine why he would recommend to run with the knockout on. You don't have or are planning a OAK connection do you?  

I actually lit my summit with the knockout on and had a few minutes of panic thinking I had a dud. Knocked the disc out and it was off to the races. 

Fwiw, neither of my stoves have modded air intake at all.


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## eastcoastcanada (Jan 12, 2017)

Squisher said:


> I can't imagine why he would recommend to run with the knockout on. You don't have or are planning a OAK connection do you?
> 
> I actually lit my summit with the knockout on and had a few minutes of panic thinking I had a dud. Knocked the disc out and it was off to the races.
> 
> Fwiw, neither of my stoves have modded air intake at all.


I'm using room air.  Mine has the pedistal base and far as I can tell, it would only be able to draw air from the tiny slit that the adjustment lever goes through so it would starve for air on anything but low. IMO, the knockout has to go regardless of outside air supply or not.
I think maybe the guy was more salesmen then he was a source of information.


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## Squisher (Jan 12, 2017)

If memory serves with an oak you leave the knockout on but without one you definetly need to remove it.


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## eastcoastcanada (Sep 11, 2017)

**Update**
I know this has been a long time coming but tonight I just fired my Pacific Energy Super 27 'Heritage' for the first time. It's not even cold outside right now but it's as good a time as any to test it and burn off the paint.
I'm extremely impressed with the geat output, blower, clean burn and ease of lighting.
So...it's 12°C outside, 39 kph sustained NE winds with gusts to 60 kph. Humidity is 100% and it's absolutely pouring outside. Chimney is a 6" Supervent prefab with wall tee and straight up 20' to the included deluxe cap, nothing special. Drafting is excellent despite the wind and the stove responds to small adjustments of the damper. On medium low or almost shut down, it maintains 600°F as indicated by an Imperial flue-gas probe thermometer and the heat in this house is enough to drive us out. We arrived home today after work with all our digital thermostats reading 18°C while it was 12°C outside and the same wind conditions as above. Lit the stove at 6:30 pm and 3 hours later every thermostat was above 21°C. The basement recroom where the stove is located was reading 32°C with windows open to evacuate the paint smoke. By 11 pm, the entire 2200 sf home is above 23°C.
Very impressed with this stove. Now I just have to gain enough confidence to leave it unattended at night.
As this is not an open concept home, the recroom us excessively hot right now at 36°C so I need to figure out how to get that heat distributed elsewhere via blowers or something.


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## BrotherBart (Sep 11, 2017)

For the folks down South. At 36 degrees C his rec room was at 97 degrees F. Kinda like mine when I test a new stove.


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## begreen (Sep 12, 2017)

Sounds like the wood is dry. Congrats on a great start to the season. Until it gets below about 5-7ºC try partial loads of fuel. Maybe 3-5 splits. That will still burn a long time and will get the house warm without baking you.


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## eastcoastcanada (Sep 12, 2017)

begreen said:


> Sounds like the wood is dry. Congrats on a great start to the season. Until it gets below about 5-7ºC try partial loads of fuel. Maybe 3-5 splits. That will still burn a long time and will get the house warm without baking you.


Will do, good advise. I'm going to try and get over the initial excitement of this and check everything over thoroughly later this evening.


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## eastcoastcanada (Sep 12, 2017)

So it's 6:30 am and the stove has gone out a while ago. I didn't stoke it up last night because I need to learn to trust it. Though my dad burned wood when I was a kid, it's my first stove. I swore I would never get one because off all the work I had to do as a kid but the uncertainty of rising electrical rates has forced my hand.
Last night just before 11pm, I threw a 7 incher in on top of the red hot coals and shut it down. This morning it's still 12°C outside but the winds have droped to 23 kph. I'm happy to report that the entire house is at 22°C with the recroom a degree warmer at 23. I know that heat loss is not much of a factor at 12°C but we would likely be waking up to a 17 degree house this morning and firing up the mini-split heat pump to take the chill out so I'm very pleased.
FYI, that great first burn took place last night with the outside air source plug still in place. I don't know how the stove got all,its air but it worked great.
Thanks to all of you for suggesting the Pacific Energy brand and thanks for all the advise along the way. I started this journey around this time last year but didn't have any seasoned wood, this year I'm ready to rock and roll and I'm looking forward to drastically cutting that electric bill.
I'll keep you updated as the season progresses and I'll try and answer any questions I can. I'm sure I will continue to draw on this crowd for guidance along my way.
Thanks!


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## WayneN (Nov 13, 2017)

BrotherBart said:


> For the folks down South. At 36 degrees C his rec room was at 97 degrees F. Kinda like mine when I test a new stove.


Lol we have all been there. I think I broke 100f testing mine last year lol. I keep the house at 80 and only half load now. Reloads at 6 -8 hrs depending on the wood type. Best investment ever!

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## eastcoastcanada (Nov 14, 2017)

wayne.nestor said:


> Lol we have all been there. I think I broke 100f testing mine last year lol. I keep the house at 80 and only half load now. Reloads at 6 -8 hrs depending on the wood type. Best investment ever!
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk



We've had extremely favorable weather this year and there's still no sign of snow but the temps are holding at 3°C to 5°C during the day and dipping to around -3°C during the night. Running the stove in the 'optimal burn zone' even with just a split or two still produces too much heat and we end up opening the windows on both floors just until we go to bed.The stove is in a 16x20 recroom in our basement and with the door left open, it sets up a powerful current that sends hot air out the top of the door and cooler air rushing in the bottom of the door. In just a couple of hours the entire house, top to bottom, are at an excessive 25°C with the recroom much hotter.  
What is the creosote risk if we let it run lower then optimal with dry wood? Just curious.


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