# Massive Solar Plan for Minnesota Wins Bid Over Natural Gas



## jebatty (Jan 1, 2014)

> ...a judge reviewing whether Xcel Energy should invest in new natural gas generators vs. large solar power arrays concluded Tuesday that solar is a better deal.... [This is] the first time in the United States that solar energy without a state subsidy has beaten natural gas in an official, head-to-head price comparison... Geronimo Energy plans to build about 20 large solar power arrays on sites across Xcel’s service area at a cost of $250 million....Each of the ground-mounted arrays would be next to an existing substation, avoiding transmission-line costs.



This decision is still subject to review/appeal. All of the other bids proposed natural gas and also located generating capacity at existing substation or generating plant locations. 

http://www.startribune.com/business/238322571.html


----------



## EatenByLimestone (Jan 1, 2014)

Once they build that they won't be able to make a stink about homeowners powering the grid as I'd assume the issues faced would be the same if there is one large solar plant making X amount of power and 1000 small plants making the same amount of power.  The only difference would be lack of control by a monopoly.


----------



## begreen (Jan 1, 2014)

Wow, that is a large array. I'd like to skim through that review. It's interesting that it came out so competitive in spite of being daylight only. The long term maintenance costs should be substantially less.


----------



## 1750 (Jan 3, 2014)

This seems really surprising and, frankly, pretty heartening.   It's amazing to me that the NG lobby let that happen.


Go, go Gophers!


----------



## jebatty (Jan 3, 2014)

Solar will rule the day, the paradigm is changing, and even big power knows that coal and ultimately NG will not be in the picture. Solar already is price competitive, and with very low maintenance costs, no air pollution issues to deal with, no cooling towers, no ash disposal, etc., it is clear that fossil fuel electricity is the dinosaur headed for extinction.


----------



## jebatty (Mar 28, 2014)

... and the project moves forward: 





> The state Public Utilities Commission, by a vote of 4-0, directed Xcel Energy to negotiate a power purchase agreement with Geronimo Energy, a renewable energy developer based in Edina, to build $250 million in solar arrays [100 MW] that will generate additional electricity for Xcel’s 1.2 million customers in the state.


Xcel also was directed to move forward on negotiating agreements for one or more natural gas burning generators. http://www.startribune.com/business/252724541.html

The article states that MN has more need for peak power, especially during the summer, and the combination of solar plus NG helps to assure that peak power needs will be better met even when the sun doesn't shine


----------



## DBoon (Mar 28, 2014)

Natural gas turbines combined with solar arrays is a great combination to meet peak power needs.  If it is a cloudy day with minimal solar production, the natural gas turbines can quickly meet grid demand, and not run when the solar output is high.  If demand really peaks, then the natural gas turbines can be used in combination with the solar PV.


----------



## Dune (Mar 29, 2014)

This is most excellent news. That and the Tesla was nearly profitable last year.


----------



## ihookem (Apr 18, 2014)

The problem I see with natural gas for electricity is it will raise the price of millions of heat bills in tis country. Other than that, I don't care. Solar on a roof has no transmission loss. Maybe some day, but for now , I still dont think they make sense. One other thing we need to consider. We have these radicals . The believe there is some Jihad out there and will surely try to blow up our power plants. With solar on everyones roof, that would be very hard to do. I believe we should be using solar to heat our houses by heating water before mking electricity.


----------



## woodgeek (Apr 18, 2014)

Solar space heating is a waste of the rooftop solar resource.  Solar heat collectors are at their least efficient in the winter, and the solar resource in at its worst then across most the midwest and east US.  And then all that sun in the summer gets wasted.  Better to go all PV, grid-tie, and get your HW and space heat from heat pumps.  And then all summer the PV runs your appliances, and banks kWh for the winter.


----------



## DevilsBrew (Apr 18, 2014)

That would be cool if the solar won out.


----------



## DevilsBrew (Apr 18, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> Solar space heating is a waste of the rooftop solar resource.  Solar heat collectors are at their least efficient in the winter, as is the solar resource in most of the midwest and east US.  And then all that sun in the summer gets wasted.  Better to go all PV, grid-tie, and get your HW and space heat from heat pumps.  And then all summer the PV runs your appliances, and banks kWh for the winter.


 
Or switch to wind.


----------



## jebatty (Apr 19, 2014)

Electric for heating this past season will come in at somewhat under 6000 kwh, or about btu equivalent to 1.5 cords of aspen, which is what I burn (= 1 cord of red oak). Early indicators are that I will bank enough $ credits to completely pay for next year's electric heat as well as most of general electric service, maybe all. And I also will be adding a small quantity of solar hot air which should be helpful in the Sept-Oct and Feb-April shoulder seasons. The goal is a net zero house for energy usage.


----------



## georgepds (Apr 28, 2014)

DevilsBrew said:


> Or switch to wind.




My experience with wind is that it's not about the windmill, it's all about the tower. Compared to a solar panel it's way too expensive for residential scale systems.. Utility scale is another matter

Solar is so cheap and easy these days for grid tied systems, I don't think wind  makes sense fro a residential system


----------



## begreen (Apr 29, 2014)

It depends on location. If you are in a windy location that doesn't have a lot of sun, say in the winter, then wind makes more sense. Think coastal Alaska for example.


----------



## DevilsBrew (May 2, 2014)

Here we get around 45% sunny days out of the year.  For example, we went 3 days with rain and now it is totally overcast.  Yeah, wind should be made a better option.  I have also lived in the Midwest.  The wind power possibilities...oh well.


----------



## georgepds (May 2, 2014)

begreen said:


> It depends on location. If you are in a windy location that doesn't have a lot of sun, say in the winter, then wind makes more sense. Think coastal Alaska for example.



I agree it depends on location, if there is no sun  there is no solar power

For those of us not living in the land of the eternal night, residential scale wind is still an order of magnitude more difficult to make work than solar PV. I speak from personal experience. My error was tower height ( twice the height of local terrain features is not enough) ; that and bird strikes taking out the blades. Several gulls loss their life to my small windmill. So far no gull has committed birdie hari kari on my solar panels, at least not in a way that took out the panel. You really cannot appreciate the simplicity of a solar panel until you have tried to  repair an unbalanced windmill in the gale winds of January. I suspect this exercise is a little tougher on coastal Alaska

Rough rule of thumb .. I know people, myself included, who generate multiple  MWH  per year using solar PV. The only guys I know who try to do the same with wind ( there are two in Vt) generate next to nothing and are buying  generators

So my question to those who think wind is practical on a residential scale: do you really know anyone who has generated  MWH+ per year, I mean personally, not some guy you read about in Home power. And, if you do, can you please describe the equipment they use


----------



## jebatty (May 2, 2014)

Minnesota, while on the northern fringe of continental US, ranks pretty good for solar insolation. There are a few areas in MN which rate satisfactory for wind, but not where I live. What I really like about solar PV is that it is hands free and vitually maintenance free.


----------



## Where2 (May 2, 2014)

jebatty said:


> What I really like about solar PV is that it is hands free and vitually maintenance free.



That's my experience. After 9.5 months of continuous PV generation, I haven't even had to wash my panels! I collected 153kWh in the last 7 days, and got a good downpour tonight which likely washed all the recent pollen off the panels again.


----------



## begreen (May 4, 2014)

Wish I could say that. Our's get a thick pollen covering every spring, (so do our cars). I just scrubbed them last week. These are ground mounted and reaching the upper row of panels is a pita.


----------



## jebatty (May 4, 2014)

Just starting the pollen season, especially from the pine trees. Will see how it goes.


----------



## begreen (May 6, 2014)

When a big doug fir drops its pollen it's like a fog. The quantities coming from a 100 ft tree are huge.


----------

