# Insulating my attic



## RNLA (Jan 30, 2011)

I'll be doing it this summer. I would like to know if anyone has used the polyester alternative to fiberglass? Dow and one other company make this type. The distribution is not real good right now.


----------



## bogydave (Jan 30, 2011)

Just used it last fall.( edit     OOPS, I just looked it up it was atticat, fiberglass)
Blew in nice. Easier than I thought.
Wife feed the machine in the garage, I was in the attic.
It had a wireless on/off sw on the hose at my end.
Lowes: Free machine use when purchase insulation, leave deposit, get it back when returned.

EDIT :I used fiberglass owen corning though. Recommended by the "Energy Audit " guy, from our audit.
http://insulation.owenscorning.com/homeowners/insulation-products/atticat.aspx


----------



## szmaine (Jan 30, 2011)

Polyester, news to me- isn't it melty stuff in a fire?


----------



## Alan Gage (Jan 30, 2011)

Not a direct answer to your question but why not cellulose?  I blew it in mine a couple years back and there was nothing to it. Supposed to do a better job of blocking air flow than fiberglass and I'd think it would be a little nicer to install.

Alan


----------



## drizler (Jan 30, 2011)

Alan Gage said:
			
		

> Not a direct answer to your question but why not cellulose?  I blew it in mine a couple years back and there was nothing to it. Supposed to do a better job of blocking air flow than fiberglass and I'd think it would be a little nicer to install.
> 
> Alan




I reacall a couple years back seeing a thread in a professional group talking about the pink stuff vs. cellulose.    The bottom line of it all was that the pink stuff loses roughly 1/2 of it's R value when there is a 10 MPH wind present.   You won't see the pink panther bragging about that one.   They were primarily referring to heat excluson if I remember it correctly being in the south but how much different can it be?


----------



## btuser (Jan 30, 2011)

I can't see how you can get more eccological than cellulouse.

I would call an insluation contractor.  If your area is over 500sqft he/she can probably do it for what you're going to pay for the material.  

I've spent more time than I care to admit crawling around in attics and my preference is for fiberglass.  Even though cellulose doesn't itch I always end up dragging it through someone's house or getting a nose full of the stuff no matter if I have a mask or not.   The stuff just sticks to you.  I developed an aversion to the stuff.  You also need to use soffit vents to make sure you don't fill up the vents, so you're crawing into the worst part anyhow.   I've also heard from people that cellulose loves to hold onto the water, and from being around penetrations ect in attics I can say without a doubt cellulose loves water.  With this in mind two Summers ago I upped the insulation in my attic with some R30 unfaced batts and it wasn't difficult to perform a good install.  I usually do my work on Fridays and don't have a helper to feed the machine, so I made up my mind to use fiberglass batts.   I bought from Wallboard Supply which was almost 1/2 price compared to Home Depot/Lowes.  Then I met a foreman for an insulation company who told me not to waste my time/money and to call a pro because he would've installed it for what I paid for it.  He also told me blown-in is better hands down no matter the situation because of wind/settling ect.   I asked him about cellulose vs fiberglass and he said cellulose. because it keeps the mice/critters out.  When I mentioned the water thing he told me it doesn't happen when you seal the frigging holes in the first place, which I did.


----------



## RNLA (Jan 30, 2011)

The water thing is why I do not want cellulose. The mess of blow in and fiberglass ETC... The polyester batts are suposed to be fairly fire resistant, absolutely moisture and mold resistant. None of these you want in you attic but they do happen. I want to see some in use and get some reviews. The product is new enough that it will be hard to get this info.


----------



## szmaine (Jan 30, 2011)

There's another choice for batts - rock wool. I am excited that it is now avalable in my area. Roxul is the brand I can get and will consider it for my attic. But nothing beats blown in cellulose for sealing up the nooks and cranies (of course you should air seal all cracks and other ceiling penetration first in any case with sprayfoam).
So my plan is to blow in cellulose and top off with batts, this is a common strategy because cellulose can be very heavy - I have to think about that due to having plaster and lathe - just some food for thought.


----------



## RNLA (Jan 31, 2011)

I got the cracks-n-holes handled no problem. I want the polyester bats because you can get in the attic any time you please to inspect or do a project or whatever you please. Apparently it is widely used in Australia and Europe. It has just come out in the U.S. and the distribution is spotty at best. It seems quite expensive right now but I have till fall to do this job. My windows are a higher priority right now....


----------



## szmaine (Jan 31, 2011)

I just google it. Apparently I could buy it if I wanted too - in stock at the Lowes in Brewer Maine.
If it's made it up here it can't be that hard to find - got a Lowes or Home Depot should be all set.


----------



## RNLA (Jan 31, 2011)

Yeah they say it is available at the box stores but your over there were they make it, the dow company said the roll out of the product is slow. I wonder how long it will be before it hits the west coast. I have only to believe it will hit the market so hard that fiberglass makers will be hurt, so they are probably not letting the poly be approved in the building codes yet. The other thing is if there was issues to discover they would not want the whole country to have the product, it would be easier to do a recall if there were problems. I can't believe the pink guys will be too happy, or any other company that makes fiberglass. I maybe totally off base and uneducated but if this product is what it is claimed to be the industry of insulation will be changed. I imagine there will be lots of people who still use a professional company to insulate their homes and fiberglass will still have a market for certain applications but poly batts will open up the do it yourself market. Then another thing is maybe they don't want everyone doing it themselves for fear of idiots making mistakes and false warranty claims. The whole thing makes me dizzy, I do want to try the product though...


----------



## henkmeuzelaar (Jan 31, 2011)

RNLA said:
			
		

> I'll be doing it this summer. I would like to know if anyone has used the *polyester alternative to fiberglass*? Dow and one other company make this type. The distribution is not real good right now.



Ouch! As a longtime sailor and forum participant on "fiberglass boat" sites, this discussion makes my head hurt. 

What the marine industry calls "fiberglass" is usually "glass fiber reinforced polyester" or GFRP (also epoxy resin can be used, though at higher cost). What the HVAC industry calls fiberglass is really glass fiber material....

In other words, I am assuming that a discussion about "the polyester alternative to fiberglass" is really about the "glass-fiber-reinforced-polyester alternative to glass-fiber alone"??  

If your head is starting to hurt a little bit as well, by now, I hope you don't mind that giving me a small measure of satisfaction; sort of by way of revenge 

OK, I promise not to do this again. After all, I am the newbie here and I will not only need to learn how to walk the walk but also to talk the talk (or did I get that bassackwards ??)

Fair winds and following seas!

Henk "Flying Dutchman" Meuzelaar


----------



## semipro (Jan 31, 2011)

I'm using the polyester insulation in my basement.  It looks a lot like what pillows are stuffed with. 

I'd do just about anything to avoid working with standard fiberglass insulation.


----------



## henkmeuzelaar (Jan 31, 2011)

Semipro said:
			
		

> I'm using the polyester insulation in my basement.  *It looks a lot like what pillows are stuffed with*.
> 
> I'd do just about anything to avoid working with standard fiberglass insulation.



That description is very interesting, as it sounds like real polyester fibers, such as Dacron for example, rather than polyester resin being used to make glass fiber a bit more user-friendly.

I guess I'll have to do a bit of Googling to get a better idea about the actual chemical composition.

How much did you have to pay for it, relative to "fiberglass" insulation??

Henk


----------



## midwestcoast (Jan 31, 2011)

Anyone know any supposed benefits of it overfiberglass or cellulose.  I say supposed because from what I see insulation manufacturers put out almost as much junk science and half-truths as insulation.


----------



## RNLA (Jan 31, 2011)

I agree, The stuff is supposed to be real similar to the stuff in pillows. The advertising is just that... You never know what it will actually do? It is claimed to be polyester insulation with similar R value per inch as fiberglass insulation just without the irritant factor.


----------



## semipro (Feb 1, 2011)

PyMS said:
			
		

> Semipro said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



two to three times the cost.  I'm thrifty but I really hate fiberglass.


----------



## semipro (Feb 1, 2011)

midwestcoast said:
			
		

> Anyone know any supposed benefits of it overfiberglass or cellulose.  I say supposed because from what I see insulation manufacturers put out almost as much junk science and half-truths as insulation.



According to an independent study (which I can't recall the source for) cellulose's R value holds up better as temps drop.  

It may have been this article: 
http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how...tics-fiberglass-vs-cellulose.aspx?ac=ts&ra=fp

I get the magazine but can't access the article online without paying.


----------



## RNLA (Feb 1, 2011)

I think it is higher at this point to use the new polyester batts. However I too would pay a bit more to do it my self and not have the "fiberglass problems". I still have the problem of availability...


----------



## 4acrefarm (Feb 1, 2011)

Don't forget the posibility of augmenting insulation with reflective foil. I use it alot and it seems very effective. It comes in vapor barior and breathable forms.


----------



## btuser (Feb 1, 2011)

I'd use the tinfoil but from what I understand results will vary greatly depending on the geometry of your attic space.  Unfortunately my rooflne isn't in the form of an equalateral pyramid.


----------



## szmaine (Feb 1, 2011)

4acrefarm said:
			
		

> Don't forget the posibility of augmenting insulation with reflective foil. I use it alot and it seems very effective. It comes in vapor barior and breathable forms.



I am considering using Refletix as the first layer (staple it to the joists?)  in my attic insulation as both an air and vapor barrier and to contain the next layer of cellulose in the event that we renovated the bedrooms, plaster and lather, it would contain the loose fill.

Any critique of this idea is welcome.


----------



## midwestcoast (Feb 1, 2011)

szmaine said:
			
		

> 4acrefarm said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you're installing a vapour barrier in the attic you want it to be below all insulation. Otherwise vapor can get traped & condense in the insulation below the barrier. Mold & ceiling damage possible.
If you're talking about insulating at the roof and not venting below the roof then that would be the right place for the Reflectix, but I'd be very concerned about any water leaks getting into the cellulose & no way to dry with a vap barrier in place 
 To get the R-value in limited thickness of just the joist bays I'd be looking at spray foam (much less worry from leaks and effective air barrier too). 

IMO radiant barrier is effective for reducing radiant heating from hot roofing in summer. Needs an air-gap on the hot side or it's useless. Reflectix also gives some insulation from the bubbles, but it's an expensive option if you have a lot to cover.


----------



## midwestcoast (Feb 1, 2011)

Semipro said:
			
		

> midwestcoast said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks, I had read the study that came from (Oakridge National Lab I think is original source) but I meant supposed benefit of polyester over glass or cellulose. I take it no itch or dust is the answer.
Tyvek suit w taped gloves & dust mask for FG install or very good dust mask (like sealed 1/2 face respirator type) for cellulose would be my choice over doubling the cost if this is a place where once installed you don't have to mess with it any more.  Working in that PPE is hot & annoying though.


----------



## szmaine (Feb 1, 2011)

midwestcoast said:
			
		

> szmaine said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, I was thinking in term of using it on the warm side. Spray foam would be great but the it would be stuck to the lathe and we do want to renovate two bedrooms below. We can't do them first because we'd be pulling down a filthy mixture of rock wool, a little vermiculite (asbestos) and mouse turds on our heads. Catch22 going on here for sure. No venting possible here anyway, the house is post and beam. 

Can you think of a cheaper barrier to lay down that will contain the loose fill if the plaster and lathe were taken down in the future?
Something sturdy, I've thought of house wrap, landscaping fabric - more ideas appreciated


----------



## midwestcoast (Feb 1, 2011)

szmaine said:
			
		

> midwestcoast said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm not sure if I understand exactly. Are you planning to remove the old insultation anyway? Why not remove it, then renovate & instal barrier, then loose fill last.
The vermiculite is a whole topic unto itself. You sure on that?


----------



## szmaine (Feb 1, 2011)

> "Iâ€™m not sure if I understand exactly. Are you planning to remove the old insultation anyway? Why not remove it, then renovate & instal barrier, then loose fill last.
> The vermiculite is a whole topic unto itself. You sure on that? "




Yes, remove it, hepa vacuum everything, reinsulate..

Can't do that and renovate two bedrooms before the next heating season.

Yes, the previous owner was kind enough to leave behind two mint-in-the-bag Zonolite vermiculite insulation = Libby, MT vermiculite - they poured it down the slope ceiling portion of the roof (cape style construction) and other random nooks and cranies.

Sorry, RNLA, hijacked your thread...

EDIT: The roof needs to be redone too, then we will be able to get the vermiculite out of the sloped ceiling FROM THE OUTSIDE and have spray foam done on the slopes. Sorry, these are the contortions of someone who cannot afford to hire contractor and have it all done up at once.


----------



## semipro (Feb 1, 2011)

midwestcoast said:
			
		

> Semipro said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree on the PPE.  I have yet to find a decent particulate filter mask that fits well and doesn't fog safety glasses....very frustrating.


----------



## RNLA (Feb 2, 2011)

Yeah, I had wondered about yous guys takin over? That is OK I am enjoying checking back to see what others are saying about this. I will be doing the attic of my 1941 house this summer or fall to make my wood stove do some real heating. If I am able to get the Polyester batts I will go about a total of R-30. The existing insulation is the equivilant of R-8 shaved wood, imagine something that looks like steel wool... Needless to say we are a bit on the drafty side right now.


----------



## szmaine (Feb 2, 2011)

Wood shavings? That is very unusual...
One room we renovated here had some stuff that look like sawdust sandwiched between very leathery fealing paper, as if it had an oily coating like tar paper only not black - I believe the name on it was "Balsam Wool" - funky stuff. 

I'm pretty sure I will try the rock wool batts as I mentioned, fiberglass doesn't bother me much- the old loose rockwool I've removed from here I could lie in without any discomfort.


----------



## RNLA (Feb 2, 2011)

I thought about the rock-wool and was told that it has a similar feeling and irritant capability as fiberglass. Some have said as you did that the rock-wool doesn't bother them. My goal is to have comfortable access to the attic as well as reasonable R-value. The other part of this project is the floor or crawl space. We had the vapor barrier changed out as there had been several dead animals down there; that was money well spent on a professional company. So to the point I was thinking of using styrofoam boards in between the floor joists. This will be expensive too but I like the thought of the insulation not hanging down, even after a professional install I've seen too many crawls that just had crappy workmanship. I am guilty of doing things to far over kill but it is our home and we have to live here and I have to repair it if I can't afford to call a "Professional" %-P


----------

