# Smartflower Solar



## sloeffle (May 13, 2019)

They showed this solar array on This Old House a few days ago:

https://www.pbs.org/video/prairie-grasses-solar-flower-ask-toh-gknniu/

https://smartflower.com


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## begreen (May 13, 2019)

Innovative, but complex. They're expensive and have a relatively short warranty. 
https://blog.pickmysolar.com/smartflower-solar-comprehensive-review


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## peakbagger (May 13, 2019)

Remember, except in rare exceptions TOH gets paid to show new products and many of the tools.  Its basically one long commercial.  TOH is long gone before any issues crop up once the wrap party occurs. They were sued in the past for high end equipment that was not working when they left but reported they tightened up on the non disclosure agreement that the homeowner signs so the homeowner cant sue or publicize issues. 

Home size trackers rarely if ever make sense given the cheap price of PV panels. Far better to install more panels.  The owner of All Earth allegedly "ghost wrote" the Vermont incentive package that paid extra for VT made trackers and then came out with tracker to sell  https://www.allearthrenewables.com/ so they are real popular in VT.  I see them pop up elsewhere in ME and NH  but in most cases the owners were sold them and didn't realize the economics. They are quite robust. Note there are some utility size arrays with single axis trackers that are shown to break even but only in specific markets.  

Somewhat like small wind turbines, the hope is the equipment is attractive as odds are it becomes a piece of sculpture rather than an actual functioning piece of equipment once the expensive bits break. Unlike a wind turbine, someone will probably figure out how to bolt the leaves in place and lock the rotation when the moving parts fail. Of course the design may have intended to stow in heavy wind conditions so leaving them deployed in heavy wind may eventually mean failure of the supporting structure. The All Earths go flat when the built in anemometer detects high winds and go vertical if covered with snow.


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## sloeffle (May 14, 2019)

begreen said:


> Innovative, but complex. They're expensive and have a relatively short warranty.
> https://blog.pickmysolar.com/smartflower-solar-comprehensive-review


I'd also say that it you would have to do more maintenance to that array than most others.



peakbagger said:


> Remember, except in rare exceptions TOH gets paid to show new products and many of the tools.  Its basically one long commercial.  TOH is long gone before any issues crop up once the wrap party occurs. They were sued in the past for high end equipment that was not working when they left but reported they tightened up on the non disclosure agreement that the homeowner signs so the homeowner cant sue or publicize issues.
> .


I didn't know this. I'd hoped they hadn't sold out like everyone else.


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## wilsoncm1 (May 14, 2019)

sloeffle said:


> I didn't know this. I'd hoped they hadn't sold out like everyone else.



Have you never watched the show?  They sold out decades ago.  Every show is basically an infomercial for a paid product placement.  How do you think they make money on PBS?


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## peakbagger (May 14, 2019)

In the old days you would see electrical tape over any brand name that they were not getting paid to show. I think they still do it on the big equipment but haven't watched them in the last couple of years.


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## SpaceBus (May 14, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> Remember, except in rare exceptions TOH gets paid to show new products and many of the tools.  Its basically one long commercial.  TOH is long gone before any issues crop up once the wrap party occurs. They were sued in the past for high end equipment that was not working when they left but reported they tightened up on the non disclosure agreement that the homeowner signs so the homeowner cant sue or publicize issues.
> 
> Home size trackers rarely if ever make sense given the cheap price of PV panels. Far better to install more panels.  The owner of All Earth allegedly "ghost wrote" the Vermont incentive package that paid extra for VT made trackers and then came out with tracker to sell  https://www.allearthrenewables.com/ so they are real popular in VT.  I see them pop up elsewhere in ME and NH  but in most cases the owners were sold them and didn't realize the economics. They are quite robust. Note there are some utility size arrays with single axis trackers that are shown to break even but only in specific markets.
> 
> Somewhat like small wind turbines, the hope is the equipment is attractive as odds are it becomes a piece of sculpture rather than an actual functioning piece of equipment once the expensive bits break. Unlike a wind turbine, someone will probably figure out how to bolt the leaves in place and lock the rotation when the moving parts fail. Of course the design may have intended to stow in heavy wind conditions so leaving them deployed in heavy wind may eventually mean failure of the supporting structure. The All Earths go flat when the built in anemometer detects high winds and go vertical if covered with snow.



I do like the anesthetics of the product, which can go a long way to justifying price. People spend this much every five years on a pretty car. This smart flower should have a better ROI than my wife's sporty two door convertible and possibly lower cost of ownership as well. Built in batteries are a plus, but I doubt there's enough storage to be worth it. This is the only nice looking solar array I've seen. Ease of install is really attractive as well. It's honestly not a terrible package when you look at the whole thing. I suspect the market for this is a more urban or suburban clientele, not rural living DIY folks with no HOA. There are far worse ways to spend $30,000


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## sloeffle (May 14, 2019)

wilsoncm1 said:


> Have you never watched the show?  They sold out decades ago.  Every show is basically an infomercial for a paid product placement.  How do you think they make money on PBS?


Yep, I watch it every week. I thought PBS was funded by my tax dollars. Sorry for being so ignorant.


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## begreen (May 14, 2019)

wilsoncm1 said:


> Have you never watched the show?  They sold out decades ago.  Every show is basically an infomercial for a paid product placement.  How do you think they make money on PBS?


Yes, some of this is economic survival. PBS buys the show. TOH is an independent production. The one making money from product placement is the production company - This Old House Ventures which also licenses This Old House magazine to Time, Inc. and they have a commercial program on the CW network (TOH: Trade School), plus their website thisoldhouse.com. This Old House Ventures, LLC is headquartered in Stamford, CT, with offices in New York, Detroit, Chicago, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Atlanta, and Concord, MA. Building on their brand they also have a real estate network and a developing medial presence (House One).


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## wilsoncm1 (May 14, 2019)

sloeffle said:


> Yep, I watch it every week. I thought PBS was funded by my tax dollars. Sorry for being so ignorant.



Very little funding come from the Federal Govt.  Not sure what your state chips in with.


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## wilsoncm1 (May 14, 2019)

begreen said:


> Yes, some of this is economic survival. PBS buys the show. TOH is an independent production. The one making money from product placement is the production company - This Old House Ventures which also licenses This Old House magazine to Time, Inc. and they have a commercial program on the CW network (TOH: Trade School), plus their website thisoldhouse.com. This Old House Ventures, LLC is headquartered in Stamford, CT, with offices in New York, Detroit, Chicago, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Atlanta, and Concord, MA. Building on their brand they also have a real estate network and a developing medial presence (House One).



Seems like a lot of work to say what I already said. ;-)


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## begreen (May 14, 2019)

wilsoncm1 said:


> Seems like a lot of work to say what I already said. ;-)


Caught me right after coffee. The point being it's not exactly how PBS makes its money, it's how TOH makes its money.  PBS makes its money mostly from private donors, grants and corporate underwriters, plus 15% from the govt.


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## Where2 (May 24, 2019)

Peak, Any idea what those All Earth single pedestal trackers go for? I've debated doing one of those for a 20 panel array versus a standard fixed ground mount at our property with the 100lbs/sq ft ground snow load in northern ME... One footer properly placed, may be easier to dig in the ground than multiple footers, since we're not precisely sure where the ledge is going to show up... Murphy's Law says ledge exists in every location I want to dig a footer, right! Ledge breaks the surface at one point in our fields, so I know it's around.


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## peakbagger (May 25, 2019)

I do not know the price, I have been trying to find out for a couple of years but have not found anyone who knows.

I did find this article from several years ago https://www.energysage.com/project/6581/allsun-tracker/ that calculates to $7.20 per installed watt. The panel prices have dropped substantially since then but expect the structure, the foundation  and the hydraulic tracker and electronics have not. The claims for trackers are usually a 30% boost in output so that would be $5.53 a watt.  

The design has a steel mounting plate. If you have tight ledge I expect you would just drill holes down in the ledge and set the anchor bolts with epoxy clean up the ledge and pour a pad to level things up.


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## begreen (May 25, 2019)

There was this article on them last year:
The costs of installing a single Smartflower varies from $25,000 to $30,000, although the average cost is approximately $27,000.
https://www.solarreviews.com/blog/c...r-panels-axis-tracker-and-fixed-rooftop-solar


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