# Holz Hausen Experiment - Results are IN!!



## Apprentice_GM

**** The results are (finally) in and the winner is Standard Ricks. More details on page 4 of this thread or you can click through to my blog with results and experiment data here ****

G'day All,

Having accumulated enough wood for a Holz Hausen and having been keen to build one ever since I discovered them a couple of months ago, I plan on commencing my splitting and holz hausen stacking early spring (in the next few weeks - check my location if this doesn't make sense) and I was planning on measuring and determining some differences between a HH and a regular stack.

Before I begin though I thought I'd ask and see what everyone would like me to do in the way of measuring and experimenting. My primary reason is to validate or refute the claim it can season wood in 3 months, or up to 8 times faster than a normal stacked row. Here is what I was planning on doing:

1) Build an approx 8' diameter and height HH. Clear and level a spot with good northern exposure (sunny) and decent airflow. Put some treated pine timber down to raise the HH off ground a little (prevent it becoming a snake house). I might get a bit engineery with the platform/base so it will last for years if the HH proves a success and I keep building them. I plan on marking the centre pole every 2 inches / 50mm or so.

2) Split my timber and set aside 36 pieces. The 36 pieces will be 3 different timber types (probably 2 x hardwoods eg bluegum, turpentine or yellow stringy bark and 1 x softwood eg conifer) of 3 different sizes (small eg 1/4 of a 6" round, medium eg 1/4 of 10"-12" round and large eg 1/4 of 16" round) each of 4 pieces. These will go in the bottom, middle and top of the HH at each point of the compass. 
Each piece will be moisture-meter tested, weighed, measured and recorded after splitting. These measurements will then be used to determine how well each piece in the pile has seasoned over time, and whether pieces on the northern (sunny) side season much faster or negligibly faster, and whether height in the pile makes any difference (eg higher might get more airflow).

3) I hope to find some scrap pieces of pvc pipe to put some additional constant measure pieces into in the HH. This will allow easy removal and re-insertion of constant measure pieces for constant measuring, and I can compare their end progress with the other 36 pieces, to gauge whether the PVC pipe surround has artificially helped or hurt their seasoning (ie extra space around the wood might help season it slightly faster. or not).

4) I have ordered a cheap moisture meter, and a weather station which logs temps/humidity/barometric pressure/rainfall/wind speed and direction to my PC. This will allow me to build an automated Excel spreadsheet to both calculate averages during seasoning and allow others to guesstimate their seasoning progress based on my results. I will log everything in metric but it shouldn't be too hard to convert to imperial 

5) I will take weekly pics of the HH and post in the forum thread for "progress" along with some initial measurements.

6) I plan on building 2 small rows of wood, one running east-west and the other north-south, nearby, and placing some pieces in them also measured as above, to use to compare with the HH at the end of the experiment.

Any suggestions or requests? 

I haven't seen any posts here that verify or refute the HH claim to dramatically superior seasoning, and I reckon it's in all of our interests to resolve this. I for one am dirt curious!


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## Adios Pantalones

well- if you're going to have specific pieces to measure- you may be better off weighing them.  A moisture meter will mean that you have to split them every time you want to measure the internal 'true' %mc.   If you weigh some, then dry similar pieces in the oven or measure several with a moisture meter- then you can estimate starting %mc, and monitor the others just by weighing them.


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## Apprentice_GM

Adios Pantalones said:
			
		

> well- if you're going to have specific pieces to measure- you may be better off weighing them.  A moisture meter will mean that you have to split them every time you want to measure the internal 'true' %mc.   If you weigh some, then dry similar pieces in the oven or measure several with a moisture meter- then you can estimate starting %mc, and monitor the others just by weighing them.



Yep, I am going to weigh them AP (#2 above) in the beginning and end and those constant measurement pieces, er constantly throughout 

I was also going to use the moisture meter at the start and the end in addition to weighing them. At the end I might split them again so as to measure the middle of the pieces moisture content more accurately.


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## Adios Pantalones

There were all these words and so I got confused and distra... hey look- a quarter!


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## Apprentice_GM

Adios Pantalones said:
			
		

> There were all these words and so I got confused and distra... hey look- a quarter!



ROFLMAO

Yeah, I get a little detail-oriented sometimes, it's the engineer in me (choleric/melancholic for those that know the temperaments) but I did read a monster detailed post of yours recently regarding a kiln Q and A  Just out of interest, is that you in that avatar? Not the cartoon dude, the one with the paintbrush?


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## Adios Pantalones

No- that's Bob Ross- had a painting show on TV for years- had a very recognizable voice and was too mellow. Look him up on Youtube for a couple laughs.

I know what you mean about detail- I put the "anal" in "analytical chemist" LOL


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## Todd

I did a test two years ago with the straight rows vs HH. Don't waste your time and energy, there is no difference in drying times. The main advantage of the HH is it's real cool looking and you can stack alot of wood in a little space. Either method will still take 6-12 months for hardwood to dry, best to get 1 or more years supply so your ahead of the game.


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## archer292

I stacked in HH configuration at the end of last burning season. I had all intentions of weighing and measuring and everything else so i could make a fair comparison of my own. I wound up stacking 3 holz hausens in the yard but had no wood or room or patience left for conventional stacks. Anyway, my location and yard size dictated where i could make the HHs. I put them in the sunniest spots working around the kids play set and everything else. I split some pieces today and used a moisture meter to check. NONE of the wood will be ready to burn this year. The moisture readings were anywhere from 36% to over 50%. The meter is rated to 44% so I have no idea how accurate it is after that. The HHs are 7ft by 7ft and have been split and stacked for 5 to 6 months. NO it did not work in my situation. Maybe its the location of the stacks, maybe I should have covered them instead of using the bark facing  up at the top, maybe all the pieces should have been stacked with the bark up, who knows.... All I can say is it DID NOT WORK!! and I definitely have had them stacked for more than three months. Maybe in the perfect situation or should I say location, the HH would work but not here and not for me. It is still a good way to get a lot of wood in a small area but not for faster drying. They look good, but are hard to build. The worst part of this is that I have no seasoned wood to burn!! Yet again.  Well, I have wood for next season, I hope.


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## archer292

I must have posted twice.


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## Adios Pantalones

What do you mean it did not work?  Were you under the impression that it would dry in half the normal time?  Most wood normally takes about a year to dry properly.  

BTW- has it been super rainy this summer for you?  That definitely effects drying times.


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## Todd

Adios Pantalones said:
			
		

> What do you mean it did not work?  Were you under the impression that it would dry in half the normal time?  Most wood normally takes about a year to dry properly.
> 
> BTW- has it been super rainy this summer for you?  That definitely effects drying times.



There are claims that an HH will dry your wood in as little as 3 months due to the chimney effect it creates. I found no difference in dry times between it and straight rows.


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## archer292

I didn't know what to expect. It has been stated that the wood in an HH will season in as little as 3 months. With that, it did not work. We did have a lot of rain this summer, maybe that was it. Either way the HH will hold lots of wood in a small space, but that to me is the only advantage.


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## Adios Pantalones

3 months!  never heard that claim- I have read the claim of "quicker", but I have doubts about that.

As for gravity draining the logs- unless you see water dripping out of them, and you won't, I doubt it would be an effect.  I guess if water concentrated in one end, then it would evaporate quicker, but that would only happen until the bulk water was released- not more than a couple weeks.


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## Adios Pantalones

By the way- try it with white ash or white birch- it may be ready in as little as 3 months (holz or not LOL)


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## archer292

As little as 3 months was exactly the claim. Search it


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## Adios Pantalones

archer292 said:
			
		

> As little as 3 months was exactly the claim. Search it



Hey- I believe that someone made the claim, I just don't believe that it would work (unless it was thin split wood that seasons so quickly anyway).  I like the holz stack because of space saving and it looks cool.


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## pybyr

This is a really interesting experiment and I'll look forward to following the objective data.  I built my first Holz in 2006, and another one last year, and based on what I saw, I am on the fence as to how well they work compared to other methods of stacking and drying  

One downside was that in each case, despite using level and stable ground (and in the 2007 incarnation using shipping pallets as a base to get the lowest levels off the soil) in each instance, as the wood dried and shrank unevenly (despite my having built it carefully), my HH-es shifted, and eventually avalanche-ed-sideways- and when they did, it was a formidable release of force in a very short interval.  

So I would definitely be cautious about building an HH in a location where kids might end up playing on it or next to it (including unauthorized or unexpected kids who may wander near it).  For that matter, keep any valued inanimate objects out of an HH's potential tumble zone, too.


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## Rockey

The only way i could see a HH being more effective at drying times is to do the following. Make a tarp the covers all but the 1st foot of wood from the ground up. cut a hole in the top of the stack and tape a large square fan to it so the air is directed up and away from the HH. Theoreticly it would draw air in throught the bottom, through the stack and out the top. Without this aid the only chimney effect would come from Delta T which I doubt would be very efective. I built my HH out of seasoned wood


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## pybyr

Adios Pantalones said:
			
		

> I know what you mean about detail- I put the "anal" in "analytical chemist" LOL



You are all mere amateurs in that regard unless you've wondered and worried about whether use of an italic type text font achieves, or should achieve, italicization of the period at the end of the italicized sentence.  I once had to interact with a well-credentialed professional who actually devoted serious thought and discussion to that...


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## pybyr

Rockey said:
			
		

> The only way i could see a HH being more effective at drying times is to do the following. Make a tarp the covers all but the 1st foot of wood from the ground up. cut a hole in the top of the stack and tape a large square fan to it so the air is directed up and away from the HH. Theoreticly it would draw air in throught the bottom, through the stack and out the top. Without this aid the only chimney effect would come from Delta T which I doubt would be very efective. I built my HH out of seasoned wood



I once got thinking about trying to use a moderately large-diameter piece of highly- perforated PVC or polyethylene drain pipe at the center of an HH, with a chimney-type rain cap on top, so that air could convect up and through the middle better than the old/original type HH.  

This idea was based on my sense, after my 2006 and 07 HH's had tumbled after several months, that the innermost pieces had seasoned considerably less well than the outer pieces  (my HH's were 7-a ft diameter and roughly 6-7 ft tall at the peak.  My hope was that the perforated center chimney might help air flow more evenly through the whole thing, and create an exposed "drying edge" in the middle as well as around the perimeter

Or better still- maybe?- one of those air-powered spinning ventilators on top of the center pipe, such as you see on agricultural or industrial buildings.  

Never got around to bothering with this "center chimney HH" idea, and don't know if/when I will, but thought I'd throw the idea out


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## Apprentice_GM

Regarding previous comments:

1) I have read the claim that an HH seasons in as little as 3 months. It's stated in this chimneysweep article I read.

2) If an HH does not accelerate seasoning then I wonder why so many throughout Europe, who have trouble seasoning wood due to cold and wet climates (certainly compared to Oz) continue to take the trouble to build them. I doubt so many enjoy the aesthetics and efficient storage benefits compared to the time spent building them over normal rows, I would suspect function (faster seasoning) plays a part.

3) I would be interested whether previous poster who built an HH and compared to normal rows did lots of testing throughout, as if a normal row could season enough in 12 months then perhaps the HH was seasoned in half or a quarter of that. Not rejecting his findings, just want to know more, especially about the testing method. If he did something like I plan on doing, and came up with that result, then that would discourage me from wasting my time - I'm under no illusions there will be a few hours invested in this.

4) For the poster who stated his HH didn't season the wood at all, did you leave plenty of gaps for airflow? How large were the pieces? What were the weather conditions throughout?

5) As for chimney accelerators, I have also thought about some. My first thought was to create a spiral pole, allowing the uplifting air to spin around the pole hopefully accelerating like the tornado effect. My second though was to get some PVc and heavily perforate it, but I have decided they may be worthwhile options to test later, after the basic HH is compared to rows.

6) I don't think the tarp suggestion is a good one. The idea of an HH is to draw air over all the splits towards centre, then up and out like a chimney. Covering most of the stack prevents this, prevents air being drawn over and along the covered split.

7) I don't think the idea behind an HH's supposed faster seasoning is a temp increase in the pile, I think it has to do with airflow advantages as per above. Perhaps I can do some testing here by placing a thermometer in the pile which reports back temp compared to normal outside air?

8) Perhaps I can do smoke testing around the pile and see if air gets drawn in and up as per my theory (or at least other's theories on why HH's are better)?

9) I have thought about containing the HH and I think wrapping some chicken wire around it and wire twisting it together, or stapling it to pile, will prevent pile collapse but allow airflow and sun drying pretty much unimpeded. My son runs around the yard and preventing him running right there at all times will be difficult (I could put some tape across pegs, that would stop him, he's very obedient that way).

So, what do you think? Should I proceed with this? I haven't found any other similar experiment posted anywhere . . . save me time if it is . . . do we want to decide this (at least in my weather conditions) or not?


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## Rockey

Apprentice_GM said:
			
		

> Regarding previous comments:
> 
> 1) I have read the claim that an HH seasons in as little as 3 months. It's stated in this chimneysweep article I read.
> 
> 2) If an HH does not accelerate seasoning then I wonder why so many throughout Europe, who have trouble seasoning wood due to cold and wet climates (certainly compared to Oz) continue to take the trouble to build them. I doubt so many enjoy the aesthetics and efficient storage benefits compared to the time spent building them over normal rows, I would suspect function (faster seasoning) plays a part.
> 
> 3) I would be interested whether previous poster who built an HH and compared to normal rows did lots of testing throughout, as if a normal row could season enough in 12 months then perhaps the HH was seasoned in half or a quarter of that. Not rejecting his findings, just want to know more, especially about the testing method. If he did something like I plan on doing, and came up with that result, then that would discourage me from wasting my time - I'm under no illusions there will be a few hours invested in this.
> 
> 4) For the poster who stated his HH didn't season the wood at all, did you leave plenty of gaps for airflow? How large were the pieces? What were the weather conditions throughout?
> 
> 5) As for chimney accelerators, I have also thought about some. My first thought was to create a spiral pole, allowing the uplifting air to spin around the pole hopefully accelerating like the tornado effect. My second though was to get some PVc and heavily perforate it, but I have decided they may be worthwhile options to test later, after the basic HH is compared to rows.
> 
> 6) I don't think the tarp suggestion is a good one. The idea of an HH is to draw air over all the splits towards centre, then up and out like a chimney. Covering most of the stack prevents this, prevents air being drawn over and along the covered split.
> 
> 7) I don't think the idea behind an HH's supposed faster seasoning is a temp increase in the pile, I think it has to do with airflow advantages as per above. Perhaps I can do some testing here by placing a thermometer in the pile which reports back temp compared to normal outside air?
> 
> 8) Perhaps I can do smoke testing around the pile and see if air gets drawn in and up as per my theory (or at least other's theories on why HH's are better)?
> 
> 9) I have thought about containing the HH and I think wrapping some chicken wire around it and wire twisting it together, or stapling it to pile, will prevent pile collapse but allow airflow and sun drying pretty much unimpeded. My son runs around the yard and preventing him running right there at all times will be difficult (I could put some tape across pegs, that would stop him, he's very obedient that way).
> 
> So, what do you think? Should I proceed with this? I haven't found any other similar experiment posted anywhere . . . save me time if it is . . . do we want to decide this (at least in my weather conditions) or not?



6 - Tell me, what exactly do you think is going to draw the air in to the center of the HH? Trust me, every split in the center of the HH is going to be colder and receive dramatically less airflow than the splits on the outside of the HH without the aid of a fan.


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## iceman

one thing i am convinced on.... doesn't really matter what kind of stack but HOW you stack...etc  single rows with spaces inthe same environment as hh WILL season just as fast .... when you stack with space either by row or loosely stacked will season good the key to hh is to get airflow in a small area.. many of us that stack 10 rows tight that is the wood that will take longest as it hardest to get airflow through....also sun and wind is good ...great but YOUR location is everything.... here in the NE i am sold on the 1-2 years to season yes... but our summers are usually hazy hot humid which the wood will not lose as much mositure if we were in texas or arizona ..someplace where its always sunny and DRY (not humid)...  wood gets its most seasoning here in the ne in the fall  as we have much drier days humidity wise which allows more water to evaporate.  even more so with our dry winters.. from usually nov on we get dry  dry air which is the key to evaporation..
so in summary : the method of stacking is not as important ...its how you stack it and your climate


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## sgcsalsero

I think your endeavor is worth it and many here at the forum would probably check out a blog if you track weekly/monthly progress.

I have three HHs built and enjoyed building every one.  I laid two courses of brick staggered as a base on the last one to encourage airflow and chimney effect, I may try a smoke test like you suggested, but I wouldn't be surprised if the draw wasn't that much.  I don't care about making things tight or filling gaps, I used a lot of shims to keep the angles correct which created pockets.  I do try to stack upright as much as possible in the middle (rather than just lazy-like tossing stuff in middle which could cut off airflow).  I wouldn't make my HHs larger than 6-7 foot wide, more smaller ones to me seem to make sense (again the more airflow and sun the better).  I agree that the Europeans (Holz Haufen is German after all) would have chucked the idea of these a few hundred years ago if they didn't work.  One thing I need to work on is a better methdology on creating a shingled roof to shed as much rain water as possible.  One thing you may want to note is how dry your wood in HH remains even after a decent rain.

Anyway, great to hear from down under and good luck, I'll probably end up posting a couple pics of mine in the next weeks.


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## Apprentice_GM

Rockey said:
			
		

> Apprentice_GM said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding previous comments:
> 
> <snip>
> 
> 6) I don't think the tarp suggestion is a good one. The idea of an HH is to draw air over all the splits towards centre, then up and out like a chimney. Covering most of the stack prevents this, prevents air being drawn over and along the covered split.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 6 - Tell me, what exactly do you think is going to draw the air in to the center of the HH? Trust me, every split in the center of the HH is going to be colder and receive dramatically less airflow than the splits on the outside of the HH without the aid of a fan.
Click to expand...


Well, I think it's simple, but obviously yet to prove it. My contention is the thing which seasons a HH faster than normal stacks is increased airflow (there is no doubt that increased airflow seasons much faster so it is reasonable to assume that this is the main reason for a HH). Your question is why?

Airflow, even very light winds, flow around the HH and over the top. When the top is shaped like a dome or pyramid/cone it creates low pressure at the centre - just like a wing (of a plane, chopper blade etc) and this draws air up the middle, or up the chimney. This air has to come from somewhere, as it in turn creates a low pressure zone in the middle of HH. The air then comes from outside the HH, flowing along the splits. That is the main point, and I know it's my theory not some learned scientists - well I haven't seen it elsewhere - and I have another, additional theory.

Airflow around the side of the HH creates similar low pressure points, again like a wing, or like a boat at mooring (this is why 2 yachts accelerate towards each other on moorings and bang into each other - benefit of a catamaran but that's a different topic). So airflow is increased even without the top or chimney effect. In other words, my contention is if you built a cylinder of wood up to a ceiling, so air flows around sides but can't flow over the top, you would still get an increase in airflow across the splits compared to traditional rows or stacks. A poster in another HH thread here postulated similar thoughts for this point, but didn't or couldn't try to prove it.


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## Apprentice_GM

iceman said:
			
		

> one thing i am convinced on.... doesn't really matter what kind of stack but HOW you stack...etc  <snip> so in summary : the method of stacking is not as important ...its how you stack it and your climate



OK, cool, but why? Have you done both and measured both? As I said before, I'd be happy if someone can save my time and effort!

Also, if that is the case, why have HH's been going for hundreds of years? I agree loose stacking is important - the HH I read says ensure a mouse can run between splits - but I think the method is important too. I will do my best to stack both the HH and the comparison rows with similar gaps - if I do this and the results show the HH is superior will you believe it?

Please, I'm not knocking anyone's experience, but I want to try and scientifically measure this and try and determine if an HH is better or the same or worse as normal stacks. I'm still keen for feedback, advice and suggestions on my experimental method, or proof by others who have done similar to save my time and effort.


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## Apprentice_GM

churchie said:
			
		

> I think your endeavor is worth it and many here at the forum would probably check out a blog if you track weekly/monthly progress.



Thanks, that's encouraging.



			
				churchie said:
			
		

> I have three HHs built and enjoyed building every one.  I laid two courses of brick staggered as a base on the last one to encourage airflow and chimney effect, I may try a smoke test like you suggested, but I wouldn't be surprised if the draw wasn't that much.  I don't care about making things tight or filling gaps, I used a lot of shims to keep the angles correct which created pockets.  I do try to stack upright as much as possible in the middle (rather than just lazy-like tossing stuff in middle which could cut off airflow).  I wouldn't make my HHs larger than 6-7 foot wide, more smaller ones to me seem to make sense (again the more airflow and sun the better).  I agree that the Europeans (Holz Haufen is German after all) would have chucked the idea of these a few hundred years ago if they didn't work.  One thing I need to work on is a better methdology on creating a shingled roof to shed as much rain water as possible.  One thing you may want to note is how dry your wood in HH remains even after a decent rain.



I might put a tarp or corrugated plastic roof on, but only on the top, not down the sides, it's important to keep all ends exposed for best seasoning. In fact, even on normal stacks I wonder about people who run tarps down the sides over the top half - maybe they only do that with a fully seasoned stack, or maybe they don't have the room to bring the tarp out horizontal so the top pieces continue to get airflow.

I also wonder about size - I have read a few articles saying don't go under 6' as you get little benefit, which makes me wonder why, and I come back to my theory about how they work (airflow across top creating low pressure and drawing air up as per my post above answering #6). I reckon the small HH's may not have the optimum top shape - easier when the HH is larger - hence reducing the pressure differential.



			
				churchie said:
			
		

> Anyway, great to hear from down under and good luck, I'll probably end up posting a couple pics of mine in the next weeks.



I'd like to see some pics, I enjoy the HH thread in the Perfect Pics forum.


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## iceman

Apprentice_GM said:
			
		

> iceman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> one thing i am convinced on.... doesn't really matter what kind of stack but HOW you stack...etc  <snip> so in summary : the method of stacking is not as important ...its how you stack it and your climate
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OK, cool, but why? Have you done both and measured both? As I said before, I'd be happy if someone can save my time and effort!
> 
> Also, if that is the case, why have HH's been going for hundreds of years? I agree loose stacking is important - the HH I read says ensure a mouse can run between splits - but I think the method is important too. I will do my best to stack both the HH and the comparison rows with similar gaps - if I do this and the results show the HH is superior will you believe it?
> 
> Please, I'm not knocking anyone's experience, but I want to try and scientifically measure this and try and determine if an HH is better or the same or worse as normal stacks. I'm still keen for feedback, advice and suggestions on my experimental method, or proof by others who have done similar to save my time and effort.
Click to expand...


 what i am saying is no matter how you stack it (spaced rows or hh) in ideal cohave space and yonditions they will both dry in the same time. this come from the many different answers here.. i hope youe experiment will give us an answer but the key to hh is it saves space and looks pretty ... if you take the same 2.5 cds put them in the same space then the hh might be faster because of the design .. but if you stack rows seperated/ loosely it will dry just as fast.. wood seasoning in 3 months .... needs dry air , sun , and wind ....
but if you experiment works i will be building one too..lol  
keep us posted and please show pics... good luck


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## Rockey

Apprentice_GM said:
			
		

> Rockey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apprentice_GM said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding previous comments:
> 
> <snip>
> 
> 6) I don't think the tarp suggestion is a good one. The idea of an HH is to draw air over all the splits towards centre, then up and out like a chimney. Covering most of the stack prevents this, prevents air being drawn over and along the covered split.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 6 - Tell me, what exactly do you think is going to draw the air in to the center of the HH? Trust me, every split in the center of the HH is going to be colder and receive dramatically less airflow than the splits on the outside of the HH without the aid of a fan.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, I think it's simple, but obviously yet to prove it. My contention is the thing which seasons a HH faster than normal stacks is increased airflow (there is no doubt that increased airflow seasons much faster so it is reasonable to assume that this is the main reason for a HH). Your question is why?
> 
> Airflow, even very light winds, flow around the HH and over the top. When the top is shaped like a dome or pyramid/cone it creates low pressure at the centre - just like a wing (of a plane, chopper blade etc) and this draws air up the middle, or up the chimney. This air has to come from somewhere, as it in turn creates a low pressure zone in the middle of HH. The air then comes from outside the HH, flowing along the splits. That is the main point, and I know it's my theory not some learned scientists - well I haven't seen it elsewhere - and I have another, additional theory.
> 
> Airflow around the side of the HH creates similar low pressure points, again like a wing, or like a boat at mooring (this is why 2 yachts accelerate towards each other on moorings and bang into each other - benefit of a catamaran but that's a different topic). So airflow is increased even without the top or chimney effect. In other words, my contention is if you built a cylinder of wood up to a ceiling, so air flows around sides but can't flow over the top, you would still get an increase in airflow across the splits compared to traditional rows or stacks. A poster in another HH thread here postulated similar thoughts for this point, but didn't or couldn't try to prove it.
Click to expand...


Ah, ok. It does seem that you have thought this through a bit. A couple things to consider - You need laminar airflow to produce the desired low pressure, thus creating the chimney effect. The rough edges of the HH will be mostly turbulent air. You will also need a decent prevailing wind to produce this chimney effect. If the prevailing wind is already present will the chimney effect really be significantly greater than a normal stack of wood in a prevailing wind?

I think most of the chimney effect will be from a Delta T especially in the morning when the outside of the HH is receiving abundant sunshine and the center of the HH is still cool from the night time entropy. I just think the difference between an Hh and a regular stacked wood drying time is negligable. I am very interested in  seeing some empirical data from your testing, good luck.


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## archer292

I guess I am the culprit " it did not work". Sorry for the negativity. I did not mean that the HH will not season wood, I meant the 3 month claim is out the window, for me anyway. As far as why it has been used for so many years in Europe, I read somewhere that it had to do with limited space to store enough wood for a long cold winter. The size that are mentioned about the HH in Europe were 10 x 10. That is a damn big stack of wood. My HHs are 7 x 7.  Maybe at 10 feet round the chimney effect is amplified compared to 7 foot. At 10 feet the center wood stacked end to end from the bottom would be a much larger cylinder or chimney going up. Anyway I will definitely follow this experiment as I am curious to see if the findings prove some of the claims. For me the limited space dictated where the HHs could stand and I think that "location is everything". That meaning the actual spot on the lawn for optimal air, sun etc., and the geographic local will all make a huge difference.  It would be nice to know if it really does work better than straight rows but in the end given the same conditions and all, I don't think the difference is going to be too dramatic. I think the HH is useful for space saving and aesthetics and that's why I'll keep using it. I do like the chicken wire idea though. Believe it or not I dropped a 4 ft length of red oak around 18 inches in diameter from well above the stack, it just grazed it on the way down but bounced into it after hitting the ground. It knocked out one of the base pieces and caused some others to shift. It is still standing and I can still stand on the top without it coming down. Stupid test but I wanted to make sure it wouldn't crumble.


----------



## pulldownclaw

I'm also very interested in your findings.  I am thinking about going with a HH with the stuff I'll be splitting next, mostly for aesthetics and space requirements.  The area I want to stack isn't good for long rows, so I'm going to try the HH, and I think my 7 year old who loves to build things will be thrilled to help.


----------



## sgcsalsero

There is at least one German website that has awesome pics of HHs on it, buried somewhere in '07 posts here I think.  Maybe worth trying to find/get in touch using BabelFish language conversion.  Hey, why not go right to the source . . .  .

oh and btw chipmunks (not mice) love my HHs, every time I walk past they are scurrying, so the air gaps probably are decent inside of it


----------



## archer292

These are some pics of the three i have in my yard. The views of the yard pics are from a second story window and the back slider. The pic with the HH and the stack was how my experiment started, and the tree is the red oak that was taken down and hit the HH on the right.


----------



## Adios Pantalones

I'm coming to visit


----------



## archer292

Anytime.... If it's cold bring some wood, mines not ready. lol


----------



## sgcsalsero

archer292 said:
			
		

> These are some pics of the three i have in my yard. The views of the yard pics are from a second story window and the back slider. The pic with the HH and the stack was how my experiment started, and the tree is the red oak that was taken down and hit the HH on the right.



Archer, to state the obvious you have a solid privacy fence, one of my HHs is 12" from my dilapidated garage so I've been concerned that the sun has been blotted out too much  . . given more property I'd find higher and sunnier south facing ground, that -has- to be 50% of the battle with drying out.  But then I have to ultimately get permission from my wife on where these beasties go .  .and I think for most the -best spots- would get veto'ed by their significant other, mainly for appearance and safety concerns

. . anyway great looking HHs


----------



## iceman

Adios Pantalones said:
			
		

> I'm coming to visit




you should check to see which one seasons faster too


----------



## ansehnlich1

I had some holz's last year, they are real easy to tarp, but I don't think they season wood as good as stuff thats stacked in a single row and getting sun/wind all day. 

No more holz's for me, my stuff is stacked straight line, facing south southwest, takin' a beatin' from the afternoon sun and prevailing southerly wind


----------



## Apprentice_GM

Nice HH's boys, you should post them in the HH thread in the Perfect Pics forum, they will get more exposure there - and they deserve it, very nice.

How long did they take to build?


----------



## RedRanger

Kinda reminds me of the movie --field of dreams--  build it and they will come..  Or try and build it instead of nice long rows in the sun and wind and?   Well, who is fooled?


----------



## sgcsalsero

I found that German site, take a look http://www.holzmiete.de/


----------



## Apprentice_GM

That's a beauty of a site!

Some great Holz's there . . . some of the sloping roof pieces look a little unstable, like they might slide at any minute, but the hausens are terrific, really well built. I noticed one guy had a tarp over the top with no top hole for the chimney effect. Either he is missing some of the HH point, or the only point to an HH is efficient and aesthetic storage. I hope my experiment resolves it.


----------



## iceman

what a site! those pics were awesome! but i am convinced that eoropeans stack more that way due to space restrictions as many of those pics appeared to look like they didn't have much space...... makes me wonder if a guy had the special cover for his how well is the design gonna work as i would think more air would get out of one uncovered.. but then again some of those had such nice tops it could passed as shingles!!lol
keep the pics coming guys


----------



## Apprentice_GM

Apprentice_GM said:
			
		

> 2) Split my timber and set aside 36 pieces. The 36 pieces will be 3 different timber types (probably 2 x hardwoods eg bluegum, turpentine or yellow stringy bark and 1 x softwood eg conifer) of 3 different sizes (small eg 1/4 of a 6" round, medium eg 1/4 of 10"-12" round and large eg 1/4 of 16" round) each of 4 pieces. These will go in the bottom, middle and top of the HH at each point of the compass.



I just realised my maths (no sic) was off. 3 x species x 3 x sizes x 4 compass points x 3 heights = 108 and that's just in HH, let alone some splits (+18) in the normal stacks. I will reduce this to:

3 x species in S/M/L splits in middle of stack at 4 compass points = 36 pieces. 
1 x species in M splits at top and bottom of stack at 4 compass points = 8 pieces.
3 x species in S/M/L splits in normal stacks = 18 pieces
Total = 62 pieces.

We will then be able to compare seasoning of S/M/L pieces of 3 different species in HH vs normal stacks, as well as work out if the top or bottom or sunny side of the HH seasons better, if at all.

Unless I overlooked something 

I have built my platform and setup my weather station, about to commence splitting and measuring and recording, hopefully this week. Spring has sprung Down Under, it's beautiful - birds singing, flowers blooming, rounds starring . . .


----------



## sgcsalsero

Assuming you gleaned a bunch of good info. on HHs by now, as you split up your stuff semi-sort it, stuff that is good for capping goes into one pile for me, nice looking shims into another, uglies for stacking in the middle yet another.  Consider elevating off the ground, and/or make sure the ground has decent drainage.  I put down 700 lbs. of gravel under one of mine, I think some guys throw a pallet in the middle and build around it.


----------



## Apprentice_GM

Yep, my platform is good, will post some pics later.

I have created one species - paperbark - with 6 x large (5kg splits) and 6 x medium (3kg) and 6 x small (1.5kg) splits already, and have identified some rounds of bluegum I will use to create 26 splits from (S/M/L similar to above sizes and weights). It's a bit tricky to get similar size rounds, well in the crappy, gnarly paperbark I had anyway, that I can split into similar splits. I am happy for a variation of say 10% in the splits, but would prefer 5% - I was constantly splitting small bits off larger splits today to bring it down to the right weight, then back to the scale, only to find out I had split too much off etc  I know fossil would say it's not an exact science, and he's right, but I want to do the experiment as best I can in order to draw reasonably accurate conclusions from it.

I am wondering if I should start chainsawing rounds into 1/4's for better accuracy or reduced variation between splits. I will need to borrow or hire a bigger splitter too for the larger rounds and splits of bluegum, my little 7 ton electric can't manage them. I also need to find a better marking pen/pencil/crayon as my builders pencil and black texta/sharpie aren't coping well. The whole process is taking longer than I expected already 

I need to get the vertical marking pole too, can't find anything appropriate in my scrap pile. Ah well . . .


----------



## Apprentice_GM

OK, I have started my HH experiment platform. I have decided to run a blog over on my website with constant postings here every time I do an update, and use these forums for feedback.

Holz Hausen Experiment - setup

When I have finished the experiment I might post the findings and blogs into a locked thread here. The idea is to keep the experiment thread clean and lean for easy future reference so others aren't wading through all the to's and fro's. I would do it all here but our webmaster can't create a thread only I can edit unfortunately. If anyone has a better idea I'm all ears.

As usual, suggestions and feedback encouraged!


----------



## KeithO

Guys, I lived in Germany and drove through quite a bit of Switzerland.    The belief in Europe is that wood should not be burnt if it has not seasoned for at least 2 full years. Folks I knew who built HH's did so because it was less of an eyesore than regular stacking and generally people tried to have 4 winters worth of wood on their property, compounding the space issue.   Wood burners there tend to be of the die hard sort.   There are few places where one can get your own wood and property prices are astronomical  (1.3 million Euro for 2-3 acre wooded site).   So most wood burners either buy cut and split wood from landowners or get a permit to cut on state land, where one simply gets a better price but has to do all the work.   One is escorted to the pre-marked trees for felling (sometimes they may already be down) and then in many cases one bucks and splits in the woods and transports it out.   Most people are transporting the wood on small trailers towed by what are considered "compact" cars here.  Generally less than a face cord per load.

So my take would be that it is primarilly an asthetic issue and that since they have so much rain, they get more waterproof wood piles without having to resort to the ugly tarp option.


----------



## Apprentice_GM

Having seen that german HH site posted earlier, and the beautiful HH's they build, under trees, complete with fake doors, windows and chimney pipes, I am leaning towards those reasons as well. However the fact remains that some people insist it seasons much faster in an HH. For example this link here:

http://www.thechimneysweep.ca/6seasoningwood.html

From a Master Chimney Sweep no less. So I am going to go ahead with this experiment . . . even though I am leaning towards it being a waste of time . . . on principle that I and everyone else on the internet should know once and for all. Hence my care with the methodology and measurements. Still open to feedback on that if there is improvement available.


----------



## Valhalla

OK men, this global interest in round wood (rund) ricks, aka HH is growing exponentially. Most important in our burning mission is the functionality of the wood drying and storage, besides keeping the wife happy!  

I'll start one that is low enough that my wife can stack and then collect the needed splits. Report to follow. 

Enjoy this burning issue. Keep warm, stack wisely and cut safely.


----------



## Apprentice_GM

Well g'day again all, from Down Under. Yes, it's been a while since I was here last, sorry about that, I have a 4 month old son to go with the 3 year old toddler now, which pretty much explains the last 4 months absence 

I have been working on the Holz Hausen experiment, in between cricket matches, and had a few problems with the first HH collapsing, then the second one having a minor spill as well . . . however all is good and I have updated my blog here:

Holz Hausen Experiment

with the first and second HH stories.

The logging of weather info hasn't been interrupted, so when winter comes & I pull it apart, I will be able to weigh and test moisture content with my cheapie moisture meter, and post results along with degree days etc for others to analyse. Hope you've all been well!


----------



## jadm

Not HH related but seeing that you are from Australia I am curious if you are in the heat wave I have been reading about - or any where near the fires.  (News always sensationalizes  things so I figured I'd ask a 'regular' person for their report.)

If you have browsed  on some of the threads you know that some parts of the US have been clobbered with cold and wet stuff this winter.  Seems like there should be a happy medium somewhere. :roll: 

Congrats on baby number 2.  I know it is hard to believe but they will be grown up before you know it and you will wonder where the time went so quickly.


----------



## Apprentice_GM

We've certainly been getting some stinking hot days here, 42, 43 degrees (over 100 in farenheit I think? ) and I've even played a 6 hour game of cricket in it, took me 2 days to recover 

But some parts of Oz, mainly South Australia and parts of Victoria (where those shocking bushfires killed hundreds of people and burnt 1800 homes) have been getting over a week of 40+, peaking at 47 degrees and no humidity. Hence the bushfire ferocity and speed of spread, 50km in 30 minutes for one firestorm. I'm hundreds of km's away from the bushfire area but of course have been bombarded with media reports on the bushfires for 2 weeks.

There's quite a lot of calling for more controlled burn-off or preventative firing, as the Victorian bushfires were burning through untouched bush with over 40 tons of fuel per hectare (over 8 tons per hectare considered dangerous Down Under, double the fuel, fire intensity grows 4 times, so 40 tons = ~20 times more intense than an 8 ton per hectare fuel load - every 5 degree increase over 30 does the same, so combine 45+ degrees and 40 tons a hecatre fuel and strong winds and it was an absolute monster of a fire we've not seen the likes of) which will also mean it becomes easier for guys like me to remove trees from local national parks as thinning programs increase and permit restrictions relax.

Meanwhile, northern Oz has been flooding for weeks! It really is a "sunburnt country with droughts and flooding rains" (famous Oz poem mis-quote).


----------



## savageactor7

Congratulations on the new baby boy and it's good to hear that the family's OK.


----------



## Adios Pantalones

It's great to see you back here my man


----------



## pulldownclaw

Great to hear from you, I've been wondering how it's been going.  Sounds like you've had an excused absence!   ;-P 

I've been watching my HH for awhile now, wondering how it's doing.  It seemed like it shrunk a bit after the first few months, but maybe that's because some of my bark roof fell off and I could see the center pole.  

I think it will be real interesting to see how the splits in the center do, without being exposed to any sun, and less wind.


----------



## Adios Pantalones

PDC- the pile will shrink.  One of the cool things is that if you stick a pole in the middle with a mark at 80% of the height of the fresh pile, then it's supposedly dry when the pile shrinks enough that you see the mark.

It does give one pause to think about wood shrinkage when calculating what you need for next year.


----------



## pulldownclaw

Happy Shrinkage!  Is that what they say at the beginning of the "Seasoning Season"?

Yeah, I have a center pole and marked it at 80%.  Not sure I'll see it before I start burning it, the HH is all oak and I completed it at the beginning of October.  I'm going to try a HH with some red maple that I just got and see how that does for the end of next season.


----------



## lexybird

i think grandpa got it right , there is no replacement for stacking single row along a fence . i think  the HH are neat looking but only popular in europe becuase they dont have the available yard  space like we do and they  plan years ahead of time.seems pretty simple the more exposed area  the better the seasoning.
ill be eager to follow your findings however .


----------



## Risser09

Could just be me but I think stacking in a rectangular shape is more space efficient than stacking in a circular shape. Both of my properties have wood stacked along the property line, giving me more space.


----------



## Apprentice_GM

Gee it's good to "see" you all again! Thanks for the welcome back 

I agree that stacking in rows and exposing more wood to sun and rain should season it faster. The more I think about HH's, having built a couple, the more convinced I am that is for aesthetic and space efficiency reasons. Volume is volume, but given you can build the HH's 8 or even 10 foot tall it does mean more volume of wood in a smaller area of land, and for those that don't like woodpiles - no-one around here I'm sure but they may exist! - the HH is a good solution.

I agree about the comment that stacking it along say a fence preserves more useable yard area eg for backyard sport with the kids, but you can't get single rows or ricks 8 or 10 foot high (safely) without some propping, hence the advantage a HH has for volume stored per land area.

Maybe I should have just submitted the thesis to "Mythbusters" and saved myself an awful lot of trouble from the start!  However, it would be good to figure it out, I've got another 50+ years of wood-burning in me, and the wood burning years left on this forum alone could amount to millions! So we may as well all utilise the best seasoning method possible.

Even with my fence wire around it, my latest HH is growing on me, I quite like the look.


----------



## pulldownclaw

My problem is I always build my stacks too high, and they get unstable.  I have tried Eric's trick with the rope through the middle, with mixed results, I'm probably doing something wrong.  One of the things I like about the HH I built is that it is ROCK SOLID.  It ain't goin' nowhere, I can lean on it hard and it won't budge.  With 2 little kids running around that's a good thing.


----------



## wendell

Apprentice_GM said:
			
		

> Regarding previous comments:
> 
> 2) If an HH does not accelerate seasoning then I wonder why so many throughout Europe, who have trouble seasoning wood due to cold and wet climates (certainly compared to Oz) continue to take the trouble to build them. I doubt so many enjoy the aesthetics and efficient storage benefits compared to the time spent building them over normal rows, I would suspect function (faster seasoning) plays a part.



There once was a newlywed couple who were preparing to have the wife's family over for Christmas. As they were preparing to put the ham in the oven, the wife cut the end of the ham off. Her husband, surprised at this asked her why. She responded that it made the ham taste better and that she had learned it from her mother. When the mother arrived, the husband asked her why she cut off the end of the ham. "because it tastes better when you cook it that way and that is the way my mother always did it."

Determined to learn this amazing secret of ham gastronomy, he went to the grandmother and asked her why she cut the end of the ham off before she cooked it. "Because my oven was too small to fit the whole ham in" she replied.


----------



## Northern NH Mike

My response has absolutely no scientific value to add to this discussion...

My dad and I built a HH this past fall with 1.75 cords.  Why? I was tired of stacking in rows and I have not seen one in the area.  In the end, it looks cool, it is the talk of the neighborhood and we had a great time building it (drank a lot too).  Yankee New England can use a little something different besides straight stone walls and woodstacks.  We painted the mark on the top to see if we get the shrinkage (or maybe just settling).  Eventually it will get dismantled and stacked since it is not realistic to take from it for burning.  It's relatively tall and awkward to get at.  Once the "roof" is taken off it needs covering anyway.


----------



## Apprentice_GM

wendell said:
			
		

> Apprentice_GM said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding previous comments:
> 
> 2) If an HH does not accelerate seasoning then I wonder why so many throughout Europe, who have trouble seasoning wood due to cold and wet climates (certainly compared to Oz) continue to take the trouble to build them. I doubt so many enjoy the aesthetics and efficient storage benefits compared to the time spent building them over normal rows, I would suspect function (faster seasoning) plays a part.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There once was a newlywed couple who were preparing to have the wife's family over for Christmas. As they were preparing to put the ham in the oven, the wife cut the end of the ham off. Her husband, surprised at this asked her why. She responded that it made the ham taste better and that she had learned it from her mother. When the mother arrived, the husband asked her why she cut off the end of the ham. "because it tastes better when you cook it that way and that is the way my mother always did it."
> 
> Determined to learn this amazing secret of ham gastronomy, he went to the grandmother and asked her why she cut the end of the ham off before she cooked it. "Because my oven was too small to fit the whole ham in" she replied.
Click to expand...


Yeah I like that story  Although the way I heard it, the original question was met with the new wife's retort "Because my mother did it that way" in a tone that brooked no further questioning warranted. Which is why it was funny and rewarding when the new husband persisted with the questions upline. Which is why I've always been encouraged to keep questioning despite the usual way of doing things.

Having now built 2 HH's and thought through the issue more, mainly whilst building the HH, I believe all those Europeans *ARE* building them for aesthetics and land area storage gains and possibly tradition, over improved seasoning. I mean it was a Chimney Sweep, based in the US, who claimed it seasoned wood in 3 months versus 2 years, not me. Here is the link:
http://www.thechimneysweep.ca/6seasoningwood.html
and a quote from the page:
"Build a Holz Hausen to go from living tree to seasoned firewood in as little as three months"
*Edward J. Zurmuhlen, AKA "Otto Best, C. S. E." Chimney Sweep Extraordinaire he lives in Ballston Spa, New York. He is an Energy Conservation Specialist with the New York State Energy Office. His forte is renewable energy.

I just want some empirical evidence one way or the other. I suspect it's like one of those urban myths that gets passed around (that HH's season firewood faster), growing until disproven.

I import cricket bats, and love my cricket. Cricket bats are made from willow, the best ones made from English willow. The willow is cut into clefts, seasoned, then shaped into cricket bats. There is a strong incentive on the part of the willow growers and sellers to season better and faster, as the drier the cleft, the better the willow performs (more "ping" or rebound of the ball off the bat) for the same given weight. Sometimes they try and kiln dry the clefts, with mixed results. The best clefts come from natural seasoning over time, 2 or more years. And how do they stack the clefts to season them? Not in Holz Hausen or cylinder / pyramid structures but in stacks (usually 3 or 4 east-west with 3 or 4 north-south in alternating rows) as you would for an end stack to a rick. England has a damp cold climate and could benefit from HH improvements if they exist, and would certainly know about HH's for firewood. So I suspect this whole "Holz Hausens season wood faster than ricks" is a myth. I will let the science speak for itself, when I get to the results.

And now I wait . . .


----------



## THEMAN

So what were the results? Does HH dry better faster or not.  Or did the study stop and get referred to Mythbusters?


----------



## Apprentice_GM

Nope, it's still going - I'm Down Under so this is the second summer at the moment, it will be ~18 months including 2 summers when done. I will be pulling apart the HH and the ricks and stacking under cover on the porch in April / May, and when I do I will be weighing the pieces and splitting and testing with the moisture meter.

I will then report results, probably late May.

I have been collecting the weather information as outlined and plotting in Excel as well.

Hope it's worth it . . .


----------



## savageactor7

Welcome back Apprentice if that last link is your HH...Holy Cow! Always good to hear from you.

ps with all the poisonous critters down in Oz is keeping wood on the porch really a good idea with a new baby running around? I dunno...I think whatever you think, just say'en is all.


----------



## LLigetfa

savageactor7 said:
			
		

> if that last link is your HH...Holy Cow!


WOW! It looks like you took a belt sander to the ends to even it up.  That's the most evenly aligned stacking I have ever seen.  Better than any of my straight ricks.  Better than Highbeam's.  Almost a shame it take it apart.


----------



## Apprentice_GM

savageactor7 said:
			
		

> Welcome back Apprentice if that last link is your HH...Holy Cow!





			
				LLigetfa said:
			
		

> savageactor7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> if that last link is your HH...Holy Cow!
> 
> 
> 
> WOW! It looks like you took a belt sander to the ends to even it up.  That's the most evenly aligned stacking I have ever seen.  Better than any of my straight ricks.  Better than Highbeam's.  Almost a shame it take it apart.
Click to expand...


Hey first, thanks for the cheery welcome - I have been intermittently popping in and out but not as regularly as I used to (strange what the addition of 2 kids does to your previously ordered and packed-schedule life isn't it! Wouldn't have it any other way though . . .)

I am really sorry to disappoint, but I didn't build that HH - merely found it online and used it - along with Highbeam's beautiful ricks - in my blog / article (btw I sought permission to use the pics - Highbeam was gracious as was the German poster from a HH site). My pathetic attempt can be found by clicking through to the article. I had to use fence wire to hold it together! Might give you a giggle though 



			
				savageactor7 said:
			
		

> Always good to hear from you. With all the poisonous critters down in Oz is keeping wood on the porch really a good idea with a new baby running around? I dunno...I think whatever you think, just say'en is all.



I stack it on the porch and then bring it in and immediately chuck it in the fire - it doesn't sit inside. I always use gloves when handling the wood for that reason too. I once had a funnel web spider - just the deadliest spider in the world - crawling around inside when a neighbour dug a pool and disturbed it's burrow, which still gives me shivers when thinking about it, as I had a crawling baby at the time who of course would pick up anything and taste it! Needless to say that spider lasted 2 seconds once I saw it. Bound to have a few snakes in the bush nearby too. I might give a bit of thought to that this year.


----------



## Apprentice_GM

OK the results are inFinally the results of the Holz Hausen vs Ricks (standard wood rows) are in and there is a clear winner! Common sense has prevailed over ludicrous untested claims - and the winner is Standard Ricks!!

Click here for my article and experiment data, but a summary is:

    *       Standard Ricks are a standout winner in the seasoning stakes over a HH. Ricks started with an average of 52% MC and fell to an average of 25% MC for a 27% MC fall, compared to the HH which started with an average of 51% MC and fell to 32% MC (those percentages are rounded hence the apparent discrepancy - the excel spreadsheet has the exact figures) for a 20% MC fall, which means the ricks lost a further 7% MC than the HH over the 18 months / 2 summers seasoning - or lost a third more moisture than the Holz Hausen. This is a significant difference in my opinion.

    *      The claim that a Holz Hausen can accelerate seasoning of firewood, even accomplishing it in 3 months, is ludicrous. Wood seasons with sun and wind and the more exposure to sun and wind the faster it seasons, so it makes complete sense to me that ricks would enjoy a significant advantage over HH's.

    *      The wood inside a HH seasons more slowly than wood in the outside ring. Mine even had some type of fungus growing on it, which whilst it might be a new generation of pennicillin, still doesn't help the seasoning and shows how damp and humid the air was all the time inside the HH. Again, this makes sense as per the above points on seasoning.

    *      Of some surprise to me was that the difference between the 4 compass points on the HH in terms of seasoning benefits from direct sunshine, was minimal. 2% better for North over South (remember I'm Down Under) - I would have thought it was much greater, but that's what careful measurement and experimentation is about.

However, the main outcome I was seeking was a clear refutation or upholding of the Holz Hausen accelerated seasoning claims, and I certainly feel I got that in spades. Don't get me wrong, I quite like Holz Hausens and can see a place for them, when one requires high volume of firewood storage in a small footprint, and I can see why some regard them as much better aesthetically - although I quite like my long ricks of firewood seasoning against my fence. You would have to leave them for much longer to get the same seasoning results though.

Thanks to everyone for following my experiment and I hope it "busts the myth" about Holz Hausen's and their seasoning rates.


----------



## pulldownclaw

Thanks for your report!  Good to know, and it makes sense.  I am still building HH and stacking in single rows where I can, but more importantly trying to get ahead!


----------



## fossil

I always knew Ricks were good for something.  Now if I could convince the wife...   %-P  Rick


----------



## BrotherBart

I love the sound of bullshit splatting on the pavement. 

Thanks for the test and update.


----------



## Apprentice_GM

fossil said:
			
		

> I always knew Ricks were good for something.  Now if I could convince the wife...   %-P  Rick



I'm only comparing and commenting on Standard Ricks. Clearly, you are a Non Standard Rick  

I would suspect you contribute to house-warming far greater than either Holz Hausens or Standard Ricks - feel free to show your wife my empirical evidence backing your claim though!! %-P


----------



## fossil

Apprentice_GM said:
			
		

> fossil said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I always knew Ricks were good for something.  Now if I could convince the wife...   %-P  Rick
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm only comparing and commenting on Standard Ricks. Clearly, you are a Non Standard Rick
> 
> I would suspect you contribute to house-warming far greater than either Holz Hausens or Standard Ricks - feel free to show your wife my empirical evidence backing your claim though!! %-P
Click to expand...


Thanks, mate, will do.  Good to hear from you, and thanks for the report on the results of your research project.  We're about to get cold up here...you stay cool.      Rick


----------



## Apprentice_GM

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> I love the sound of bullshit splatting on the pavement.
> 
> Thanks for the test and update.



Ha ha ha! Nicely put 

Should I contact this webmaster here, and the author he references you think, to inform / educate them? Or would it seem like bragging and belittling them? Or just let my results rest on merit?


----------



## BrotherBart

Hey. Creosote is his friend. He is a sweep. His kids have to eat too.


----------



## savageactor7

Well Apprentice_GM's application of the scientific method should put the wooden stake right right into the heart of any HH 'faster seasoning' claims.


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## golfandwoodnut

As Apprentice said the HH has it place.  Alot of storage in a small foot print.  But I think the best attribute is the conversation piece.  I have some pretty nice looking rows(ricks?) but they do not garner near the attention that the HH gets.  People can't stop talking about them when they see it, usually because they have never seen anything like it.  I did find that they seasoned well for me, here is a picture of mine after just 1 year.


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## jdinspector

I am dis-assembling one of my holz today and over the next week. It was constructed in 4/09 (15 months ago). Amazing how much hollow space is in there. I did take some moisture readings on re-split pieces. Oak and Maple that had started as fresh cut/split is at about 16-18% on my Protimeter moisture meter. I didn't have any mold or fungus growing in mine. I did build a small roof made of bark on the top. I'm pretty happy with how it turned out. As an earlier post said, it's a great conversation piece.

On a related note, the poultry netting that I used to "contain" the perimeter worked like a charm. Some leaning happened, but nothing collapsed. I was able to salvage the whole roll and put it on another holz that I have in another part of my yard.


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## Vic99

Great experiment.

I currently have  3.5 HHs and 5 ricks on my property (8ish cords).  I used one and a half HHs last season.  They were uncovered.  I covered the remaining half this past spring because I noticed that the middle area of both was quite moldy.  I hypothesize that once leaves & moisture get into the middle it never really properly dries out.  Although I have not taken measurements, I currently have 1 HH that I've been slowly building over the past 6 months (I split by hand and have 3 month old now).  Since it has had the top covered with a tarp from day 1, I reckon that it will be pretty dry when I burn it in 2-3 years.

I'd like to know the covered vs. uncovered HH, but can only give anecdotal info in the future as I'm not up for creating 2 HHs in a short time.


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## Jags

Excellent experiment Mr. Apprentice.  Thank you for taking the time and energy to document this.  It sounds like it is no more efficient in speeding up the drying process than a heap-hausen.  :lol:


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## wendell

Thanks for the time, effort and report!


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## Apprentice_GM

Jags said:
			
		

> Excellent experiment Mr. Apprentice.  Thank you for taking the time and energy to document this.  It sounds like it is no more efficient in speeding up the drying process than a heap-hausen.  :lol:



Jags, I'm convinced that a heap hausen would season faster than a Holz Hausen - but happy to leave that experiment to someone else 

Thank you everyone for your support and kind words. There were times when I was feeling like I was wasting my time (regretting my whole OCD approach to everything really) then I would philosophize that I might be helping others (in making decision which seasoning method to use) so carried on. 

I notice the original chimney sweep page I referenced claiming HH seasons faster has disappeared . . . the whole site seems offline.

I am also wondering about this:


			
				jdinspector said:
			
		

> I am dis-assembling one of my holz today and over the next week. It was constructed in 4/09 (15 months ago). Amazing how much hollow space is in there. I did take some moisture readings on re-split pieces. Oak and Maple that had started as fresh cut/split is at about 16-18% on my Protimeter moisture meter. I didn't have any mold or fungus growing in mine. I did build a small roof made of bark on the top. I'm pretty happy with how it turned out. <snip>.



Maybe I packed my middle pieces in too tightly? I tended to throw uglies and chunks in there so it was much looser than normal stacking, but maybe it needs to be looser? I'm not repeating the experiment though!  Those seasoning numbers are pretty impressive, definitely better than mine. I still have to get around to analysing and uploading my weather data eg "number of degree days" but I live in a pretty temperate climate, and I read that oak takes a long time to season than other species, but 15 months from fresh to 17% seems outstanding.

For me, in my climate with my species, I reckon 2 summers / 18 months in ricks is equivalent to 3 summers / 30 months in a Holz Hausen, so I am definitely sticking with the ricks.


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## Apprentice_GM

Finally I have a theory about bark on top. Unless the bark is concave, cupping rain towards centre and flowing outwards like tiles if stacked that way, I can't see how they help. If they are the other way up then the water is going to shed to the side and penetrate the Holz Hausen with minimal shedding to the outside. Maybe I let too much water into my HH?


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## midwestcoast

Apprentice_GM said:
			
		

> Finally I have a theory about bark on top. Unless the bark is concave, cupping rain towards centre and flowing outwards like tiles if stacked that way, I can't see how they help. If they are the other way up then the water is going to shed to the side and penetrate the Holz Hausen with minimal shedding to the outside. Maybe I let too much water into my HH?


I agree. Unless the roof is rather carefully constructed I don't see it shedding rain just 'cause the bark side is down. I recently made a HH & tried the 'tile' method with some bark chunks.  We'll see...


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## jdinspector

The "roof" on my HH was loose bark that had fallen off old pieces and some that fell off during splitting. It was not logs with the bark side up. I installed it "shingle style" so that water was shed to the perimeter of the structure. During dis-assembly, I noticed that many perimeter pieces were stained on the exteriors (gray), but were pretty clear on the interior portion of the logs. Evidence that water was running down the outside of the structure.

I think the loose layered bark allows for a great deal of ventilation, while shedding most of the water.

Regardless, I still think a previous poster was right. A HH is really more of a conversation piece, but also allows me to stack a lot of wood in a small footprint. Not sure how much faster (or better) it seasons wood.


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## snowleopard

Bumping this thread, since the question has arisen again.


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## Wood Duck

My holz hausen (six of them) have roofs constructed of slabs from the outsides of large rounds. The roofs do not shed water. I don't see how I could make a reasonably waterproof roof with curvy wood 'shingles.' Nevertheless most of the wood in the interior of the stacks does not show much evidence of water - it is still wood colored, not grey like the wood that is exposed to rain.

For me one advantage of holz hausen is that they stand on their own and can be constructed of oddly sized and shaped firewood. unfortunately, I have had a recent collapse of one. The first two I created stood for two years without any sign of sagging, while the more recent ones don't look as solid after about 1.5 years as they did when I stacked them. I think I am getting sloppy when stacking.


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## Jags

Wood Duck said:
			
		

> I don't see how I could make a reasonably waterproof roof with curvy wood 'shingles.'



The same way you would if you were to use tiles.  This all sounds like a big ol pain in the booty to me.


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## midwestcoast

Or like this ^ ^ ^ ^
                             u  u  u


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## golfandwoodnut

I put the bark side up on mine (see my image on the side).  Do I think it really matters? No, rain does not hurt anyway, it does not go back into the wood.  But it looks really cool.  I can never get people to talk about my rows and rows of normal stacking, but everyone cannot stop talking about the HHs.


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## Apprentice_GM

Yeah my HH was quite a talking piece, but I must be a bit useless because I built a base which sucked and caused a collapse, then put down 4 pallets and built it again - and it collapsed halfway through building it - then after finishing it had a mini collapse and I had to repair it AGAIN.

That's when I thought of wrapping some fencing wire mesh around it which worked well, of course it could be because my splits are all oddbods <cough> from scrounging.

I tried the above bark roofing method, putting "cup up" pieces around and capping them with a cup down piece, but I don't think it matters much either (someone else can do the experiment to compare HH with a good roof vs HH without one lol : ) 

As far as seasoning goes though, ricks win - easily. I'd love to know how a "heap hausen" goes because I am always keen to reduce my energy inputs (ok, I'm lazy).


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## SolarAndWood

Apprentice_GM said:
			
		

> I'd love to know how a "heap hausen" goes because I am always keen to reduce my energy inputs (ok, I'm lazy).



I have a windy well drained site with good southern exposure.  My heap got to 30' in diameter last year and it dries just fine.  I've heard all the arguments against heaping.  However, unless you are stacking in well spaced single rows, I don't see how a loose tossed pile is going to perform exceptionally worse than a HH or the multi row tight stacks.  I use the loader to make the heap as tall as possible but otherwise just toss it from the splitter onto the heap.

The biggest problem I have with the heap is stock rotation.  I am considering moving to a windrow setup to get around it.  Or, maybe multiple year sized heaps.

Everything I get is oddball scrounge too, you don't have to worry about a heap falling over ;-)


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## 73blazer

Here's my take on HH with some amateur back-up data.

I use them, and I agree after using them for 3 years there is no way they can season green fresh cut wood in three months. Based on my readings, I don't  think they're better than standard ricks or rows, and indeed, as the results of the original posters experiments shows, which I am not refuting here.
So, why do I use them?
Simple, I live on 10 acres of heavy woods. The idiot who built the house didn't knock enough trees down and I have extremely limited space to store my wood that gets sun. I have plenty of wood supply, but no place or very little place on my property that gets sun, let alone wind, all day or even 1/2  of a day, except very few small areas. I keep pulling more trees down as time goes on, but since they're so close to the house, it's a time consuming process, in the interest of safety and the size of these things (usually 70-90' 1-2' diameter red or white oak or maple), I spend half a day rigging cables and pullys and winches and multiple tractors and and trucks as ballast, safety gear to ensure it falls exactly where I want it, so it's a very slow process, for me.  So, until I get enough space cleared for row or rick stacking, I use the HH method. Right now I have 2, a 9.5' and a 6', and they get sun the majority of the day. The 6' was split/stacked Mar 2010  (originally in a 10' and then restacked mar 2011 into it's 6'), and the 9.5' Mar 2011. 

So, what are my results? Well, I do have a moisture meter, but I've never run controlled experiments. I do take readings however.
My wood is usually dead wood, that said, it's still 45-50% moisture content, to start. I cut and split and stack. 
A year  and some months later, coming out of the holz, yeah, the inner pieces do seem "wet" if you will, but, that's only surface wetness, not really important and dries up in a day or 2. When I split and take a reading, it's usually in the high 20's. (red/white oak and maple), ok, not so good. The first year I did make make a small row stack and it got low 20's after the same period of time.
But, here's the vexing part,  I move from the HH to the big covered front porch I have for easy access from the house on a regular basis to stock my indoor wood rings. My porch holds about 3 face cords. Usually, it's on the porch for about a 3-4 weeks, I stock it up in fall and as each face cord gets burned I bring another face from the holz up to the porch.  It gets some wind and western sun in the afternoon. After sitting on the porch for the better part of a month, and then inside for a few days, when I split and take another reading, I get high teens, some low 20's on the bigger splits. 

How's that? Well, I've contemplated that for a while. My best theory is, wood pours open up over time, and time alone, wood can never again hold the same amount of moisture it once did after seasoning. In a HH, the pours still open up, but there's not a good place for all that moisture to be released.  But after stacking loose on the porch and inside for 3-4+ weeks, that moisture is readily released quickly because the wood pours are already open. 
I do think there is something to the draft effect of a HH ,certainly the inner pieces are more surface wet than the outer pieces, but  it's not a nasty mold mess inside the HH like I envisioned the first time I built one . But I did measure once with a temp probe, on a nice calm day in the fall, it was 42 ambient outside, the bottom of the stack was 42, and when I got a ladder and put the probe at the top of the stack, it was 45, i retook those measurements several times, and then several more times over the next few months, different ambient, but always the same delta, 3 degrees. Anywhere where there's a temp difference, there's gonna be air moving. Or it could have been just the nature thermal mass of the stack, who knows.

The HH's work for me thus far, I'd prefer row stacking. I will say one additional thing, they are a major conversation piece. When we have people over entertaining in the summer, it is always brought up and talked about, invariably, even if they've been here before and seen them.

Just my $0.02!


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## Apprentice_GM

Well some interesting info there. First of all, if the inner HH pieces are 28% vs the ricks 22%, that's a significant difference in seasoning for ~18months. However, I am very interested in what happens to the rick seasoned wood on the porch - how much that drops. Does it stay lower MC than the HH inners, or end up the same? Thanks for your post.


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