# Chain sharpening



## Oww My Back Hurts (Jun 23, 2013)

Just wondering, how long do you usually use a chain before it needs to be sharpened again?  What does it usually cost you (if you don't do it yourself)

I had my blade sharpened about 2 weeks ago and I've cut about 2 or 3 cords of wood with it and it's dull again.  Just wondering if that is normal or if I am doing something wrong.  They charge me $10 to sharpen the chain


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## ScotO (Jun 23, 2013)

Oww My Back Hurts said:


> Just wondering, how long do you usually use a chain before it needs to be sharpened again? What does it usually cost you (if you don't do it yourself)
> 
> I had my blade sharpened about 2 weeks ago and I've cut about 2 or 3 cords of wood with it and it's dull again. Just wondering if that is normal or if I am doing something wrong. They charge me $10 to sharpen the chain


Get yourself some files, and watch some youtube tutorials. Sharpening chains isn't hard to do at all......just need to learn the fundamentals.
I make sure my chains are sharp before every job I do. Makes the cutting much easier, and much funner, when you don't have to fight the saw.....it does the work for you.
Believe it or not, if you hit a lot of dirt (and even the minerals in some species of wood) will dull your chain super fast. 

BTW, 10 clams for a sharpened chain? That's pretty darned expensive, IMO. Send them in a box to me, I'll do it for half that price!!


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## thewoodlands (Jun 23, 2013)

Oww My Back Hurts said:


> Just wondering, how long do you usually use a chain before it needs to be sharpened again? What does it usually cost you (if you don't do it yourself)
> 
> I had my blade sharpened about 2 weeks ago and I've cut about 2 or 3 cords of wood with it and it's dull again. Just wondering if that is normal or if I am doing something wrong. They charge me $10 to sharpen the chain


Like Scotty said get yourself some files, I had a sharp chain on today when cutting an old downed  maple but parts of it had dirt in the middle, I ended up filing it twice.

When I started cutting I hardly ever sharpened in the woods, that was a mistake so I hand file more, it also gives you a small rest.


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## wesessiah (Jun 23, 2013)

i sharpen after every time i use it, whether i use a whole tank of gas, or half a tank. i can never get it quite as amazing as a brand new chain though... which i find frustrating, because when it comes to sharpening knives i'm a wizard. i haven't seen a manufacturer yet that gets a blade as sharp as i do, and i only go as high as 1000 grit.


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## Nick Mystic (Jun 23, 2013)

I use one of those sharpening gizmos that you clamp onto your chain bar and has a file that slides along a rod assembly that holds it at the proper angle and height for the chain. It is pretty quick and easy to set up and does a good job sharpening the chain. I think it cost less than $10 and you need to replace the file after maybe 20 sharpenings.  It works best if you have a workbench with a vise that allows you to clamp the chain bar in the vice as you do the sharpening, but you can use it anywhere. As for how often I sharpen - whenever the blade gets dull. That can happen in the first few minutes of use if I hit a rock on a downed log or get the blade into the dirt. Or I might go through several tanks of gas before the blade gets dull if I'm cutting softer woods that are up off the ground. When I'm cutting oak, which is what I most often do, I usually end up sharpening the blade after each tank of gas.


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## Macpolski (Jun 24, 2013)

When storms went through our area last June, there were trees downed aplenty.  I learned a tidbit last year via another wooburning/woodcutting website - "sharpen before it gets dull";  this is the greatest tip I can relay.  In addition, around these parts, $10 is what is typically charged to sharpen a chain.  I will only use their service if I rock a chain pretty good. For me, good files and a guide work pretty good. I'm no expert, but am happy with my own results.

http://www.oregonproducts.com/pro/products/accessories/AssembledFileGuide.htm

http://www.husqvarna.com/us/accessories-old/product-accessories/filing-equipment/combination-gauges/


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## JP11 (Jun 24, 2013)

I'll echo the sentiments above.  It's much easier to KEEP it sharp than to sharpen it after it won't cut worth a damn.

JP


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## smokinj (Jun 24, 2013)

Whats worse than cutting Oak with a dull chain? (Hedge)


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## WellSeasoned (Jun 24, 2013)

Ive asked the same question 6 mos ago. Now I'm a pro.... +2 on filing before a chain is dull.


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## ScotO (Jun 24, 2013)

smokinj said:


> Whats worse than cutting Oak with a dull chain?


 Cutting with the chain on backwards!!  A buddy of mine did that once!! Don't ask me how, but he called me up and explained what it was doing.  I figured he'd hit metal or a rock or something.  He brought the saw to my shop and sure enough...........the chain was on BACKWARDS!!


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## Woody Stover (Jun 24, 2013)

Agreed, sharpen your chains before they get dull. It only takes a few light strokes to bring 'em back. I usually hand-sharpen twice (need to pick up a file holder, been free-handing 'em) then use the clamp-on guide the third time to true up all the angles. It takes time but you'll save a lot of money if you cut a lot of wood. There was an old boy who once offered to sell me a grinder...need to ask him about that again....

You might find some good threads in the Gear Forum....


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## Bspring (Jun 24, 2013)

I sharpen mine by hand. My file slides into a holder about 1" wide that helps me get the angle right. I mount the bar in a vice. I use about 3 strokes per tooth. It took several months to get where I am now but I can do a decent job in a short amount of time; not as good as a new one. I have learned to make sure your file is good. Your can hear the difference on a sharp and dull file.


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## smokinj (Jun 24, 2013)

Scotty Overkill said:


> Cutting with the chain on backwards!! A buddy of mine did that once!! Don't ask me how, but he called me up and explained what it was doing. I figured he'd hit metal or a rock or something. He brought the saw to my shop and sure enough...........the chain was on BACKWARDS!!


 
I seem someone do it on a milling chain. Its was about 20 out and the winds where gusting at 30mph. It was supposed to be a quick run.


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## bogydave (Jun 24, 2013)

+1 from above.

How fast they dull has a lot of variables.
Touch the ground when cutting, chain is dull.
Dirt on the wood, chain dulls pretty fast.
Dirt , dust , foreign material in the wood (we have glacier silt in the wood here)
Type of chain, some handle dirty wood better.

Learn to file by hand or
buy 4 or 5 chains take them to get sharpened, R&R the dull chain , drop 2 or 3   off to get sharpened.

I file after each trip out cutting & carry an extra chain or 2 to the field. Swap if needed when out & sharpen in the shop.

Not always happy with the local sharpening outfits. Some (most ) grinders over heat the cutter tips, change the temper of the steel , & the chain dulls even faster.
Filing is not always perfect but after a while you get better at it.


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## bogydave (Jun 24, 2013)

smokinj said:


> I seem someone do it on a milling chain. Its was about 20 out and the winds where gusting at 30mph. It was supposed to be a quick run.


 
Backwards ?
Waiting for some one to come out with a chain that is sharp on both sides of the cutter. 
When one side gets dull, turn it around.  LOL


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## Backwoods Savage (Jun 24, 2013)

Oww My Back Hurts said:


> Just wondering, how long do you usually use a chain before it needs to be sharpened again? What does it usually cost you (if you don't do it yourself)
> 
> I had my blade sharpened about 2 weeks ago and I've cut about 2 or 3 cords of wood with it and it's dull again. Just wondering if that is normal or if I am doing something wrong. They charge me $10 to sharpen the chain


 
My back hurts too. As for sharpening, I learned to sharpen chains without a holder; free hand all the way. Many years later I tried on of the file holders but didn't like it. Then my hands got so bad and hurt so much while filing that I broke down and got a grinder, like a dremel. Stones are cheap and you can get the grinders sometimes at $10 but most are around $30-$40. Well worth it. Mine came with clamps so I'd just clamp it on the battery of the atv when out in the woods. Sometimes I would sharpen before I went to the woods but if you cut for long you should sharpen again. One good rule of thumb is to sharpen after every tank of gas or at most, every other tank of gas. Doing it like this, the time required is very little. Just a couple minute job. As for how well these things work, they work very well once you do a couple of them. The only thing you have to be really careful with is to not hold that stone on the tooth very long. Heat can do bad things. But I've been using one of these tools for maybe 15 years or possibly more and love it. Wish I'd got one sooner and it is a whole lot cheaper than taking it somewhere to be sharpened.

By the way, I also own only one chain per saw. I won't buy another chain until the one I have is worn out. I just can't see much sense in tieing up all those dollars on chains, especially when it takes so little time to sharpen one.


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## Boom Stick (Jun 24, 2013)

I started sharpening by hand and initially I just used a round file with no guide.  It worked well enough  but eventually the chain will need to be put on a machine to sharpen it.....I went and bought the stihl kit with a guide and am getting a way better hone on my chain.  I will always use the guide as it works awesome.  No need to pay for what you can do in 5 minutes and for a lot less.


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## Oww My Back Hurts (Jun 24, 2013)

Wow, thanks for all the great info, I'm glad I asked because I've been going through probably 15 tanks of gas between sharpenings -- basically until the wood I'm cutting starts to get burn marks from friction with the saw.  I've picked up a sharpening kit & will start sharpening way more often.


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## Corey (Jun 24, 2013)

+1000 for sharpening/touch up every tank of gas - or even more if the chain needs it. If it's not sharp, you're just wasting time, effort, gas and increasing the risk of an accident from trying to push the chain or getting fatigued while waiting the extra time for it to cut.  Also, I always put my saw away oiled, sharpened and gassed up - you never know when you might need to cut your way out of an emergency...storm damage, tree blocking road, tornado, zombie apocalypse, etc.

Files are always good to have. But I love my Dremmel stones, even though they seem to have a bad rap on here.  They should have a stone for most any size chain.  I find using the dremmel allows me to focus more on the angles and goes as fast or faster than a file.. especially if I need to take extra off if the tooth is dinged up.  A very light touch and a few quick passes is all it generally needs, but you can always add just a slight amount of pressure and make more passes to clean up a bad tooth.

Also note, the files themselves will get dull - so prepare to replace them when they don't seem to cut as well.  The dremmel stones also wear out with some regularity, but $5 for two stones and maybe 6-8 full chain sharpenings per stone, you're in the 30 cents per sharpening range.

Some additional discussion:

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/chain-saw-sharpening-with-a-dremel.85074/


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## osagebow (Jun 24, 2013)

Scotty Overkill said:


> Cutting with the chain on backwards!! A buddy of mine did that once!! Don't ask me how, but he called me up and explained what it was doing. I figured he'd hit metal or a rock or something. He brought the saw to my shop and sure enough...........the chain was on BACKWARDS!!


 



hahaha...did that several weeks back. only took a sec to figure it out, though.


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## Trooper (Jun 25, 2013)

Looks like I am in the minority here, but I have about 10-12 chains that I cycle through, by swapping them out when one gets dull.  I keep the dull ones in a box, and when I get about 6 of them I head out to the garage and fire up the HF chain sharpener.  I find that process more workable than sharpening each time I cut.


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## Backwoods Savage (Jun 25, 2013)

Oww My Back Hurts said:


> Wow, thanks for all the great info, I'm glad I asked because I've been going through probably 15 tanks of gas between sharpenings -- basically until the wood I'm cutting starts to get burn marks from friction with the saw. I've picked up a sharpening kit & will start sharpening way more often.


 
Another rule of thumb is if you have to muscle that saw rather than let it cut, it needs sharpening. I've seen guys really using muscle to force that bar into the log. Not a good habit at all.


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## Ram 1500 with an axe... (Jun 25, 2013)

This is what I use, it seems to work very well, I thank a friend that gave it to me....


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## NortheastAl (Jun 25, 2013)

Backwoods Savage said:


> My back hurts too. As for sharpening, I learned to sharpen chains without a holder; free hand all the way. Many years later I tried on of the file holders but didn't like it. Then my hands got so bad and hurt so much while filing that I broke down and got a grinder, like a dremel. Stones are cheap and you can get the grinders sometimes at $10 but most are around $30-$40. Well worth it. Mine came with clamps so I'd just clamp it on the battery of the atv when out in the woods. Sometimes I would sharpen before I went to the woods but if you cut for long you should sharpen again. One good rule of thumb is to sharpen after every tank of gas or at most, every other tank of gas. Doing it like this, the time required is very little. Just a couple minute job. As for how well these things work, they work very well once you do a couple of them. The only thing you have to be really careful with is to not hold that stone on the tooth very long. Heat can do bad things. But I've been using one of these tools for maybe 15 years or possibly more and love it. Wish I'd got one sooner and it is a whole lot cheaper than taking it somewhere to be sharpened.
> 
> By the way, I also own only one chain per saw. I won't buy another chain until the one I have is worn out. I just can't see much sense in tieing up all those dollars on chains, especially when it takes so little time to sharpen one.


I have the Dremel style one myself. Makes short work of sharpening a chain that hits a buried nail. Too long a time to do that by hand.


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## Ashful (Jun 26, 2013)

Perhaps stopping to file a chain every 1 - 2 tanks of gas works for those with the leisure to work on their own property, but it's definitely not for me. When I'm out felling and cutting, I'm on someone else's land (often with them helping me), and the goal is maximum cords per hour. I take at least a half dozen chains with me of each size (I carry a full toolbox of individually-boxed chains), and just swap the chains out as they become dull. I'll usually go thru 3 - 6 chains in a day, between my 3 saws, felling, limbing, skidding, bucking, loading, and cleaning up from perhaps 3 cords.

Then one night later that week, when things are quiet and I have some time, I'll sit down and run thru them on the bench-mounted chain grinder. This works much better _*for me*_, than wasting valuable time in the woods fiddling with a file! Put on a good radio show or podcast, and do it at home, after the kids are in bed.



Scotty Overkill said:


> BTW, 10 clams for a sharpened chain? That's pretty darned expensive, IMO. Send them in a box to me, I'll do it for half that price!!


 

You work cheap! If you'll sharpen my 28" chains for that price, I'm sending 'em all your way!


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## Ram 1500 with an axe... (Jun 26, 2013)

Joful, sounds like your a man with a plan and are very organized in your  job. I guess it shows we are all different, I'm on the extreme different side of sharpening than you, I cut when I have something, when I have time as a hobby. But when I put the saw in the vise and sharpen  each tooth with that nifty tool, I get satisfaction.
Also take it easy on Scotty, money is only a tool, not everyone needs it in abundance to be happy...
Keep up the great work with the cutting....


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## charly (Jun 26, 2013)

Whole trick is to have all the cutters the same length.. I use dial calipers to find the shortest cutter first, a paint dot first on any one cutter, Then go around one time and keep zeroing the caliper every time you find a shorter cutter.. Once you find the shortest cutter I move the dial caliper face only so it reads any wheres from .005 to .010... positive.. Now you'll be taking that much off of the shortest cutter and a little more off of the longest cutter... Check as you go so all are at zero or pretty close...I do that after free handing about a 1/4 of the way through the chain, not every time I file.. I can pretty much after over 30 years look at the hash marks and see to even things up from one side to the other... I use Timber Savage files,,, double cut files,,, they make quick work of filing..

www.*harborfreight*.com/6-inch-*dial*-*caliper*-66541.html


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## charly (Jun 26, 2013)

Files I use...these are the best files I ever used.. These babies file..


 
*Newly listedSwiss Timber Savage Files*

*Time left:* 6d 10h leftTuesday, 10PM  
$5.00


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## ScotO (Jun 26, 2013)

charly said:


> Whole trick is to have all the cutters the same length.. I use dial calipers to find the shortest cutter first, a paint dot first on any one cutter, Then go around one time and keep zeroing the caliper every time you find a shorter cutter.. Once you find the shortest cutter I move the dial caliper face only so it reads any wheres from .005 to .010... positive.. Now you'll be taking that much off of the shortest cutter and a little more off of the longest cutter... Check as you go so all are at zero or pretty close...I do that after free handing about a 1/4 of the way through the chain, not every time I file.. I can pretty much after over 30 years look at the hash marks and see to even things up from one side to the other... I use Timber Savage files,,, double cut files,,, they make quick work of filing..
> 
> www.*harborfreight*.com/6-inch-*dial*-*caliper*-66541.html


Wow, you get pretty technical, Charly!  I like to try and keep the cutters all close to the same size, but when you hit a nail, rock, or some other obstruction, it may knock a handful of teeth.  Rather than wipe out the whole chain by knocking all of the "good teeth" down to size, I just sharpen them as I go.....and I make sure the rakers are the same in relation to the tooth they are in front of.  Yeah, not very scientific, but it helps get more use out of an otherwise trashed chain.  The only downside is it makes the saw chatter.a little (of the damaged teeth were REALLY bad).


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## charly (Jun 26, 2013)

Scotty Overkill said:


> Wow, you get pretty technical, Charly! I like to try and keep the cutters all close to the same size, but when you hit a nail, rock, or some other obstruction, it may knock a handful of teeth. Rather than wipe out the whole chain by knocking all of the "good teeth" down to size, I just sharpen them as I go.....and I make sure the rakers are the same in relation to the tooth they are in front of. Yeah, not very scientific, but it helps get more use out of an otherwise trashed chain. The only downside is it makes the saw chatter.a little (of the damaged teeth were REALLY bad).


Scotty, I like hand filing as a chain last me a long time.. One thing I do after hitting a rock, etc. I take my file and first go straight across the cutter knocking the dulled point off first with a few strokes, then come back to the proper angle. Yes the raker gauge is key,,, on the rakers after filing down to the proper height, I take and round off the front of the raker with one stroke so the raker is not going into the wood with a squared leading edge.. Read that a long time ago in some filing book... makes for a smoother running chain.. At times I just hit all the rakers with the same amount of strokes when I want to get cutting again.. I was told years ago to cut with three chains, rotating them out when ever they get dull,, that gives you the longest bar, rim sprocket and chain life... I use to measure brand new Oregon chains right out of the box to see how close they kept the cutter lengths from the factory,, they varied by up to ..010... I like to keep my stuff within .005..-.000


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## charly (Jun 26, 2013)

Scotty,
   I first got into using the dial calipers back in my climbing days... I wanted my say to cut like butter up in the tree... Especially if you were hanging out at a tough body twisting angle and and wearing down ,, that's when you appreciate a good cutting chain... Plus going through the wood faster or at an ideal pace for the motor,,, I think my fuel lasted me longer up in the tree..


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## Ram 1500 with an axe... (Jun 26, 2013)

charly said:


> Scotty,
> I first got into using the dial calipers back in my climbing days... I wanted my say to cut like butter up in the tree... Especially if you were hanging out at a tough body twisting angle and and wearing down ,, that's when you appreciate a good cutting chain... Plus going through the wood faster or at an ideal pace for the motor,,, I think my fuel lasted me longer up in the tree..


At first thought I was thinking you were a mechanic gaping a spark plug, ha, but you know your stuff and there is nothing wrong with being technical, that can sometimes separate the cream of the crop, keep sawing on.....


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## charly (Jun 26, 2013)

Ram 1500 with an axe... said:


> At first thought I was thinking you were a mechanic gaping a spark plug, ha, but you know your stuff and there is nothing wrong with being technical, that can sometimes separate the cream of the crop, keep sawing on.....


I was a Harley Tech for a local dealer for like 10 years, so I that's where I became fussy! I always said I'd fly what I worked on...just did stuff for others like it was being done for myself.. just in my blood... Got to use some nice equipment at the dealer too... We use to even stress bore all our cylinders, did all our own valve and guide work, 3 angle valve seat cuts, rebuilt and trued our own lower ends... Flywheel could have a max run out on the shafts by the flywheels of .001,,,, none was better  Harleys were basic and because they were, if something wasn't done right,, it showed up like a black eye! OK back to cutt'n


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## Backwoods Savage (Jun 26, 2013)

Ram 1500 with an axe... said:


> This is what I use, it seems to work very well, I thank a friend that gave it to me....


 
Aw shucks. You need to take that wood handle off and stick a corn cob on the file.


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## Ram 1500 with an axe... (Jun 26, 2013)

Backwoods Savage said:


> Aw shucks. You need to take that wood handle off and stick a corn cob on the file.


Are you really busting my chops on that nice little ol tool that I have Dennis?.....really
It may not be a dremel. But it works....


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## Thistle (Jun 26, 2013)

Roughly every tankful I give the teeth 2-3 strokes with file,every 3-4 sharpenings the rakers are knocked down a bit also.That can vary with what I'm cutting at the time.Nomally have the rakers for denser hardwoods not as deep as softer woods.But once in a while I forget what was being cut or milled last on a particular chain.Quite a surprise when starting to cut Honey Locust,White Oak or similar when it was used on White Pine or Silver Maple a few days/weeks before.


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## HDRock (Jun 27, 2013)

Backwoods Savage said:


> Aw shucks. You need to take that wood handle off and stick a corn cob on the file.


That would make a cumfy handle, never thought of that


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## HDRock (Jun 27, 2013)

Scotty Overkill said:


> Wow, you get pretty technical, Charly! I like to try and keep the cutters all close to the same size, but when you hit a nail, rock, or some other obstruction, it may knock a handful of teeth. Rather than wipe out the whole chain by knocking all of the "good teeth" down to size, I just sharpen them as I go.....and I make sure the rakers are the same in relation to the tooth they are in front of. Yeah, not very scientific, but it helps get more use out of an otherwise trashed chain. The only downside is it makes the saw chatter.a little (of the damaged teeth were REALLY bad).


Exactly what I have been doing, good to here I'm not the only one
No reason to grind/file half the chain away


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## charly (Jun 27, 2013)

HDRock said:


> Exactly what I have been doing, good to here I'm not the only one
> No reason to grind/file half the chain away


My chains last me a long time... filing by hand. My neighbor years ago had an OWB and a powered chain grinder,,, he went through chains left and right,,, trouble is,, even with a power grinder , you need to take five minutes with the dial-calipers to find the shortest cutter once around the loop.. then you set the grinder so your are just touching any cutter until you get the length that you've determined to even the cutters, I usually like to take off .010...from the shortest cutter.. Once the stop is set on the power grinder then you could just grind away... now you'll have a chain that last a long time again..Plus your not hogging a bunch of metal out over heating the cutter. I still like a file over a cutter wheel , unless you get a diamond wheel.. I feel a regular cutting wheel wears as you grind and you loose some of your consistency from the time you started to the time you ground the last cutter.. You'd have to check the first and last cutter and see if the last cutter is longer...probably not enough to really worry about... Basically if you do it my way, it goes quick because you don't need to remove a lot of metal, plus you have a nice cutting chain when your done... I could sharpen my neighbors chain by hand and give him a nicer cutting chain then he could get with his grinder.. Seems he found moving the grinder from the left to right cutters changed things a little.. He was all about getting 5 chains sharpened in 20 minutes. Guess it's all about how interested your are in getting the most out of your cutting and chains... I always enjoyed cutting, so having a nice cutting chain made it even that much nicer.. I took the time to learn... I was a big hit when I hired on to the DOT tree crew,,, we had good cutting saws  Once you use the dial calipers you'll always do it.. Like I said I do it when I see the chain is getting pretty uneven.. other then that I just keep the strokes pretty even and go with that field filing...


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## Ashful (Jun 27, 2013)

All good, in theory. However, if I can save a few minutes on each chain, I don't really care if I can get a few extra sharpenings out of one. Chain ain't _that _expensive, and can last plenty long sharpening with a chain grinder, in careful hands.


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## mecreature (Jun 27, 2013)

get some good files and go at it.
Look closely at what you are doing.

I have brought some really bad chains around.
Once there keep it sharp all the time, even if its takes just a couple swipes.


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## charly (Jun 27, 2013)

Joful said:


> All good, in theory. However, if I can save a few minutes on each chain, I don't really care if I can get a few extra sharpenings out of one. Chain ain't _that _expensive, and can last plenty long sharpening with a chain grinder, in careful hands.


I agree in careful hands.. My thoughts are if you take off an 1/8 inch on a grinder without measuring what you really need, you just removed .125... I usually remove about .010  on the shortest cutter - .020 on the longest cutter,,, using the longest cutter that's about 6 sharpenings to once on the grinder.. so that gives me a very long service life, especially when your cutting on a daily basis...


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## charly (Jun 27, 2013)

mecreature said:


> get some good files and go at it.
> Look closely at what you are doing.
> 
> I have brought some really bad chains around.
> Once there keep it sharp all the time, even if its takes just a couple swipes.


I agree!


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## Ashful (Jun 27, 2013)

charly said:


> I agree in careful hands.. My thoughts are if you take off an 1/8 inch on a grinder without measuring what you really need, you just removed .125... I usually remove about .010 on the shortest cutter - .020 on the longest cutter,,, using the longest cutter that's about 6 sharpenings to once on the grinder.. so that gives me a very long service life, especially when your cutting on a daily basis...


 

I usually remove almost nothing from the shortest cutter, and since I always sharpen by grinder, there really is not more than a few 0.001"s difference between the shortest and longest cutter. If one cutter is somehow badly wiped out, I have a choice between ignoring it (one dull cutter out of 91 isn't all that noticeable), or grinding all of the others down to match it. Either way, the hours I save over the course of a year with the grinder is well worth whatever few pennies worth of chain I'm losing.


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## smokinj (Jun 27, 2013)

Joful said:


> I usually remove almost nothing from the shortest cutter, and since I always sharpen by grinder, there really is not more than a few 0.001"s difference between the shortest and longest cutter. If one cutter is somehow badly wiped out, I have a choice between ignoring it (one dull cutter out of 91 isn't all that noticeable), or grinding all of the others down to match it. Either way, the hours I save over the course of a year with the grinder is well worth whatever few pennies worth of chain I'm losing.


 
I would challenge anyone that hand files up against my cyclone wheel. Or, even stone running kool grind. Anyone who thinks there saving whatever it is just don't know enough on hopw to grind in the first place. Your just trueing it up and putting a shine on it. Same with a file. I corrected enough bad hand filers in my life. ( Each time a hand filer sharpens they will begain to narrow the gullet) Over time this will cause quicker dulling of the chain. It takes a wheel to open it back right! So anything they think they have gained will disappear once its opened back up right.






This is opened now look that close at a hand filer's you will see a major problem. After just 3-5 filings.


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## charly (Jun 27, 2013)

smokinj said:


> I would challenge anyone that hand files up against my cyclone wheel. Or, even stone running kool grind. Anyone who thinks there saving whatever it is just don't know enough on hopw to grind in the first place. Your just trueing it up and putting a shine on it. Same with a file. I corrected enough bad hand filers in my life. ( Each time a hand filer sharpens they will begain to narrow the gullet) Over time this will cause quicker dulling of the chain. It takes a wheel to open it back right! So anything they think they have gained will disappear once its opened back up right.
> 
> 
> View attachment 105331
> ...


I've never had an issues hand filing, depends on how you put pressure on the file. For me a use one hand on the tip of the file and the other on the handle. My gullets seem to stay open to the point I have to watch the tie strap. Plus I twist my file as I push it through.. I think it's more of a problem with people who just file with on hand on the handle.. Depending on the angle sometimes some up pressure is needed so you don't get big hook with a thin razor edge that will dull quick.. I know what your saying...


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## Backwoods Savage (Jun 27, 2013)

Ram 1500 with an axe... said:


> Are you really busting my chops on that nice little ol tool that I have Dennis?.....really
> It may not be a dremel. But it works....


 

  Ya, just fooling with you. Actually many moons ago that is all we used for handles were corn cobs.


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## Ashful (Jun 28, 2013)

charly said:


> I've never had an issues hand filing, depends on how you put pressure on the file.


 

I think it has more to do with the attack angle of the wheel.  Whereas a file will just create a semi-circular grind that goes deeper and deeper as you progress, the wheel comes in at a set angle from the top, removing proportionally more top plate per side plate, versus the file.  I think that's where using a 10-degree vise angle can help the hand sharpeners, but you'll still never match the exact profile (or speed!) of a grinder.

smokinj likley goes thru more chain per week than most of this forum does per month, so his advice carries a lot of weight!


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## charly (Jun 28, 2013)

Joful said:


> I think it has more to do with the attack angle of the wheel. Whereas a file will just create a semi-circular grind that goes deeper and deeper as you progress, the wheel comes in at a set angle from the top, removing proportionally more top plate per side plate, versus the file. I think that's where using a 10-degree vise angle can help the hand sharpeners, but you'll still never match the exact profile (or speed!) of a grinder.
> 
> smokinj likley goes thru more chain per week than most of this forum does per month, so his advice carries a lot of weight!


I know what your saying about filing deeper and deeper into the cutter.. When I see that starting to happen I lift up on the file to flatten the top angle back out so you don't get that semi circle.. using a filing jig , you can raise that up to avoid that semi circle as well.. No doubt you can get the perfect quick angle with the grinder,,, I just enjoy sharpening with the file, done it for 35 years...


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## MasterMech (Jun 28, 2013)

It also depends on your circumstance. I'm going grinder in a few days, I've been hand filing mine and my customers chains but with customers dropping 12-15 chains at a time, I'm falling behind. Great results can be obtained with a grinder, skilled hand filing will always be sharper. In either case, the end result depends on the operator much more so than the tool. 

If I was mostly sharpening for me and on my own time, I would stick with the files.  But when your handed a rocked out 28" loop, that takes more time with a file than I could reasonably charge for.  Folks don't want to pay more than $5-$8 to sharpen a chain and at my shop labor rate, that means I need to be done with a chain in 6 - 9 minutes or else I'm taking a pay cut.


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## charly (Jun 28, 2013)

MasterMech said:


> It also depends on your circumstance. I'm going grinder in a few days, I've been hand filing mine and my customers chains but with customers dropping 12-15 chains at a time, I'm falling behind. Great results can be obtained with a grinder, skilled hand filing will always be sharper. In either case, the end result depends on the operator much more so than the tool.
> 
> If I was mostly sharpening for me and on my own time, I would stick with the files. But when your handed a rocked out 28" loop, that takes more time with a file than I could reasonably charge for. Folks don't want to pay more than $5-$8 to sharpen a chain and at my shop labor rate, that means I need to be done with a chain in 6 - 9 minutes or else I'm taking a pay cut.


12-15 chains, I'd have a grinder as well...can't blame you one bit..  Why give your work away?


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## USMC80 (Jun 28, 2013)

sorry to hijack but looking at the Granberg bar mount sharpener.  Anyone have any experience using this?

http://www.amazon.com/Granberg-Bar-Mount-Chain-Sharpener-G-106B/dp/B0002ZY1WG


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## mecreature (Jun 28, 2013)

charly said:


> I've never had an issues hand filing, depends on how you put pressure on the file. For me a use one hand on the tip of the file and the other on the handle. My gullets seem to stay open to the point I have to watch the tie strap. Plus I twist my file as I push it through.. I think it's more of a problem with people who just file with on hand on the handle.. Depending on the angle sometimes some up pressure is needed so you don't get big hook with a thin razor edge that will dull quick.. I know what your saying...


 

I agree. you can get a more even pressure going the direction you want. It again comes to keeping it sharp.
If you have a really crummy chain you tend to want to put a lot of pressure on it. It will just make a bad sharpening job worse.

I cant see me spending the money for a grinder for my 6 chains... 

I always use a set of high power reading glasses when I sharpen.
When I first started sharpening I would take a few strokes and look at it with a magnifying glass to see what you are taking off.
You can get a good idea of where it is going from there.


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## smithm1979 (Jun 28, 2013)

Usmc80
I have that granberg mount. Little hard to understand at first (not very good instructions) but it seems to do a good job. Definitely keeps your file at the correct angle, much better than you could do free hand.


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## USMC80 (Jun 28, 2013)

smithm1979 said:


> Usmc80
> I have that granberg mount. Little hard to understand at first (not very good instructions) but it seems to do a good job. Definitely keeps your file at the correct angle, much better than you could do free hand.


 

Thanks Smith!  I've read good reviews, only negative is what you said about the instructions.  I guess ill give it a go.


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## Bigg_Redd (Jun 30, 2013)

Oww My Back Hurts said:


> Just wondering, how long do you usually use a chain before it needs to be sharpened again? What does it usually cost you (if you don't do it yourself)
> 
> I had my blade sharpened about 2 weeks ago and I've cut about 2 or 3 cords of wood with it and it's dull again. Just wondering if that is normal or if I am doing something wrong. They charge me $10 to sharpen the chain


 
1) Chainsaws do not have "blades."  They have bars and chains.

2) I usually cut with a sharp chain till it gets dull.  I've never come close to 2 or 3 cords without sharpening.  On my best day of 20+ years of wood cutting I might have got through 1/2 a cord on a single sharpening. 

3) Learn to file yourself and save that $10


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## charly (Jun 30, 2013)

Bigg_Redd said:


> 1) Chainsaws do not have "blades." They have bars and chains.
> 
> 2) I usually cut with a sharp chain till it gets dull. I've never come close to 2 or 3 cords without sharpening. On my best day of 20+ years of wood cutting I might have got through 1/2 a cord on a single sharpening.
> 
> 3) Learn to file yourself and save that $10


Sharpening by hand has made me more cautious as to what your cutting into and near,  as far as rocks, barbed wire in trees, etc... The upside, a touch up takes less then 5 minutes so no big down time...


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## Woody Stover (Jun 30, 2013)

Bigg_Redd said:


> I usually cut with a sharp chain till it gets dull. I've never come close to 2 or 3 cords without sharpening.


If that sucker isn't throwing some big chips, but is starting to throw some dust, I swap it out. Redd, don't you use chipper chain? Still not making it through a cord doesn't surprise me, and I sure can't with chisel chain.


charly said:


> Sharpening by hand has made me more cautious as to what your cutting into and near, as far as rocks, barbed wire in trees, etc


I usually don't have much problem with grit in the soil but I was cutting in the bottom of a ravine the other day where there was exposed rock. I don't think I hit any rocks but I wonder if rain splashed some sand up on the wood; Roasted two chains inside of five minutes. Chaps yer arse when you sharpen 'em by hand.


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## smokinj (Jun 30, 2013)

charly said:


> I've never had an issues hand filing, depends on how you put pressure on the file. For me a use one hand on the tip of the file and the other on the handle. My gullets seem to stay open to the point I have to watch the tie strap. Plus I twist my file as I push it through.. I think it's more of a problem with people who just file with on hand on the handle.. Depending on the angle sometimes some up pressure is needed so you don't get big hook with a thin razor edge that will dull quick.. I know what your saying...


 


Can you post a close up like the one I got? Twist or not the file once it cuts enough it will make a Chanel the size of your file.


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## Woody Stover (Jun 30, 2013)

smokinj said:


> Can you post a close up like the one I got? Twist or not the file once it cuts enough it will make a Chanel the size of your file.


That's why I like to use the jig every third or fourth time. The clamps hold the chain down and the file stays at the level you set it. File can't drop into the gullet (or the chain can't lift up, causing the file to get to the bottom of the gullet.)


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## smokinj (Jun 30, 2013)

Woody Stover said:


> That's why I like to use the jig every third or fourth time. The clamps hold the chain down and the file stays at the level you set it. File can't drop into the gullet (or the chain can't lift up, causing the file to get to the bottom of the gullet.)


 


Any close ups pics?


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## Woody Stover (Jun 30, 2013)

smokinj said:


> Any close ups pics?


 They may have a deep gullet if I had sharpened several times before truing them up with the jig. But I'm only concerned with the top of the tooth. After I true the chain, it will look like this....the top of the tooth will have a different angle than the gullet. On the Stihl 33 RS chain I use, only the top of the tooth is cutting. If you imagine cutting a log from the bottom, with the top of the bar, and look at the cutting edge from the front of the tooth, it will look somewhat like the number "7". Only the top 1/2 of the "7" is cutting, and it will have the angles I want. The gullet area isn't doing any cutting.

Check out the middle pic here:
http://www.madsens1.com/bnc_teeth_types.htm

_This chain was on about the fourth freehand sharpening; I get lazy and don't want to take the extra time of using the jig.  Need to score that grinder that an old boy offered to sell me a while back._


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## smokinj (Jun 30, 2013)

That what most think but it really comes down to clearing chips. Not much different than keeping everything clean. That is a lot better than i normal see as well Nice Job! If you can get a little deeper into that gullet it will stay sharp longer.


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## Woody Stover (Jun 30, 2013)

smokinj said:


> Not much different than keeping everything clean.


That's gotta be the filthiest tooth ever!  And if you look closely, you can see that one is dull....front edge is pretty shiny.


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## smokinj (Jun 30, 2013)

Woody Stover said:


> That's gotta be the filthiest tooth ever!  And if you look closely, you can see that one is dull....front edge is pretty shiny.


 


Only part I would judge is the part the file touched. I got pic's of milling chains that will curl a hand filers toes!


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## Thistle (Jun 30, 2013)

I watch the chips,definitely dont wait until its powder before getting out the file.Denser woods like Honey Locust,White Oak,dry Mulberry etc will have slightly smaller chips mixed in even with a new out of the box or freshly sharpened chain.

And that .404 square chisel full skip basically makes mulch,no matter what wood I'm cutting!


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## Bigg_Redd (Jun 30, 2013)

Woody Stover said:


> If that sucker isn't throwing some big chips, but is starting to throw some dust, I swap it out. Redd, don't you use chipper chain? Still not making it through a cord doesn't surprise me, and I sure can't with chisel chain.
> I usually don't have much problem with grit in the soil but I was cutting in the bottom of a ravine the other day where there was exposed rock. I don't think I hit any rocks but I wonder if rain splashed some sand up on the wood; Roasted two chains inside of five minutes. Chaps yer arse when you sharpen 'em by hand.


 
Skip tooth round bit chains. Stihl. Not sure what the official designation is.


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## charly (Jul 1, 2013)

smokinj said:


> Can you post a close up like the one I got? Twist or not the file once it cuts enough it will make a Chanel the size of your file.


I do what Woodystover does,  install my oregon jig and raise the file up so I'm filing higher again into the cutter face, once I see the deep gullet starting to form.. At the same time I dial caliper my cutters before mounting the jig so I know where I'm going to file too as to have all the cutters the same length...


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## Ashful (Jul 1, 2013)

charly said:


> At the same time I dial caliper my cutters before mounting the jig so I know where I'm going to file too as to have all the cutters the same length...


 

I wonder why you want all the teeth to the same length? Why not take the same number of swipes on each tooth, and let them be where they be? There will be some very minimal different in tooth heights, but that's surely an issue more of theory than practicality, assuming you lower each depth gauge properly in relation to its own cutter.  Seems to me you're doing a LOT of extra work for some very minimal / theoretical gain.


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## charly (Jul 1, 2013)

Joful said:


> I wonder why you want all the teeth to the same length? Why not take the same number of swipes on each tooth, and let them be where they be? There will be some very minimal different in tooth heights, but that's surely an issue more of theory than practicality, assuming you lower each depth gauge properly in relation to its own cutter. Seems to me you're doing a LOT of extra work for some very minimal / theoretical gain.


I found that free hand filing in between the jig use, you don't keep them as even as you think, so I like to bring things back to pretty even.. I've been doing it for 35 years so it goes very quick for me... Keeping the teeth all the same length ,,,, all the cutters take the same amount of bite providing the raker heights have all been set with a gauge as well = smooth cutting chain...


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## MasterMech (Jul 1, 2013)

Bigg_Redd said:


> I usually cut with a sharp chain till it gets dull.


 
 Now that just makes sense now doesn't it?


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## Bigg_Redd (Jul 1, 2013)

MasterMech said:


> Now that just makes sense now doesn't it?


 
It was the gentlest way I could answer a dumb question.  If I make 10 cuts with a new chain and it dulls, I sharpen it.  If I make 100 cuts and it's still cutting good, I keep cutting.  It's a very simple principle but is somehow beyond the grasp of many otherwise very capable people.


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## MasterMech (Jul 1, 2013)

Bigg_Redd said:


> It was the gentlest way I could answer a dumb question. If I make 10 cuts with a new chain and it dulls, I sharpen it. If I make 100 cuts and it's still cutting good, I keep cutting. It's a very simple principle but is somehow beyond the grasp of many otherwise very capable people.


 
I couldn't imagine re-sharpening every tank of gas with my MS460's.  I'd never get anything done.


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## smokinj (Jul 1, 2013)

MasterMech said:


> I couldn't imagine re-sharpening every tank of gas with my MS460's. I'd never get anything done.


 

Busting that 460 right you should have enough work for a few guys with a tank of fuel. Go home and sharpen in the shop where its heated...


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## MasterMech (Jul 2, 2013)

smokinj said:


> Busting that 460 right you should have enough work for a few guys with a tank of fuel. Go home and sharpen in the shop where its heated...


 Two tanks will load the truck most days. And you've seen my loads.


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## smokinj (Jul 2, 2013)

LOL love the truck! 15 min on the saw is at least an hour work for a couple guys. I AM with big red I be right back though with a new chain out of the shop......Took many years to be able to say that. LEARN form a guy on racesaw.com


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## smokinj (Jul 2, 2013)

LOL love the truck! 15 min on the saw is at least an hour work for a couple guys. I AM with big red I be right back though with a new chain out of the shop......Took many years to be able to say that. LEARN form a guy on racesaw.com


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## MasterMech (Jul 2, 2013)

smokinj said:


> LOL love the truck!​


 
Even at 6.56 MPG, it's still cheaper to move wood with the beast than my Canyon.   Easier on the truck too.  The Canyon needs rear springs.


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## charly (Jul 2, 2013)

MasterMech said:


> Two tanks will load the truck most days. And you've seen my loads.


Nice window sticker


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## mywaynow (Jul 2, 2013)

One thing not mentioned yet (unless I missed it) is when you sharpen by hand with a file, wear leather gloves!  Especially as the day gets long.  Blood looks cool on the bar, but in reality those cuts hurt.  Done it many times.  Most of the sharpening I do now is with a dremel and stone.  I find it more accurate, quicker and easier.


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