# Fuel Cost



## velvetfoot (Feb 12, 2013)

Looking at the EIA heatcalc spreadsheet, located at http://www.eia.gov/neic/experts/heatcalc.xls ,one more time, and acknowledging all the regional caveats, etc, here are the numbers per delivered million BTUs:

Oil:  $36.97
Electric, resistance:  $35.26
Propane:  $33.67
Pellets:  $19.43
Electric, air source heat pump:  $14.67
Natural gas:  $14.00
Wood:  $12.63

All the assumptions are on the spreadsheet.  I think it's an eyeopener that electric resistance is now cheaper than oil.  Also the heat pump might be deserving of a look.


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## ddahlgren (Feb 12, 2013)

If you have a geothermal source it gets even better for the heat pump. If i had a pool or lived next to a lake I would run the heat pump with one of the new compressors that source heat from the pool when the air temp is below pool temp and use the pool to cool the compressor when air conditioning and air temp is above pool temp.


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## dja950 (Feb 12, 2013)

Not gonna lie, i miss my natural gas. But i dont miss living in suburbia, I love the country so wood it is.


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## pen (Feb 12, 2013)

I've been running an air to air mini split heat pump since July, and very impressed with it's low cost operation. 

When I clicked on that calculator, a different number per million came up, and propane was cheaper than oil.  Perhaps it knows my region based on my IP?  Not sure.

Also, I moved this over to the Green Room.

pen


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## velvetfoot (Feb 12, 2013)

pen said:


> I've been running an air to air mini split heat pump since July, and very impressed with it's low cost operation.
> 
> When I clicked on that calculator, a different number per million came up, and propane was cheaper than oil.  Perhaps it knows my region based on my IP?  Not sure.
> 
> ...


You are correct.  I edited the post.


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## ddahlgren (Feb 12, 2013)

In my area coal is the cheapest and electric and oil less than a dollar apart. If you have forced air heat I would think a heat pump is the way to go and use the wood stove for very cold nights or if power is out. Or use it for a nice setting and make the place extra warm but a 24/7 hour burn becomes much less important.


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## Augie (Feb 12, 2013)

The wood cost assumes you are paying for wood..... So far I have burned 1 cord and it has cost about $45... so 20mill BTUish/$45 is $2.25 per million BTS.... and I'm not paying Gym Membership this winter so $65x5 and I'm actually ahead of the game about $280


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## ddahlgren (Feb 12, 2013)

Augie said:


> The wood cost assumes you are paying for wood..... So far I have burned 1 cord and it has cost about $45... so 20mill BTUish/$45 is $2.25 per million BTS.... and I'm not paying Gym Membership this winter so $65x5 and I'm actually ahead of the game about $280


 
 How many hours and equiptment for the 'free' wood/


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## Augie (Feb 12, 2013)

Hours that I would have been at the Gym.=no difference....... and Equipment. Im still running a Chainsaw(chains), Maul, and Wedges that I was Given by my father a couple of years ago, his old equipment that he isnt able to use any longer. Much of the wood has come from my parents place as well, trees I had CSS over the past few years, the rest has been dropped in my driveway by a couple of great tree services. So yes I can see that it could cost more, but for now at least it hasn't.


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## Danno77 (Feb 12, 2013)

Where do they figure in CAD (a common side effect of woodburning)? what about SAD (splitter acquisition disorder)? What about going through something like 8 million work gloves a year?

Fitness? meh. I got all fat and I gather and split all of my firewood. Still had to pay for a gym membership (not bitter, I love my excersize).

Trust me. I, personally, do not save any money at all by burning wood. Not only that, but I'm on this danged forum all of the time, just think of the ways I could be getting in trouble instead!


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## ddahlgren (Feb 12, 2013)

Augie said:


> Hours that I would have been at the Gym.=no difference....... and Equipment. Im still running a Chainsaw(chains), Maul, and Wedges that I was Given by my father a couple of years ago, his old equipment that he isnt able to use any longer. Much of the wood has come from my parents place as well, trees I had CSS over the past few years, the rest has been dropped in my driveway by a couple of great tree services. So yes I can see that it could cost more, but for now at least it hasn't.


 
I was just bringing up the point that for a great number of those burning wood there are a bunch of hidden costs that seem to get dismissed. I was given a stihl chainsaw but have not gotten it running right yer so another project. All i need it for is to buck some splits that are a bit too long as delivered.


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## ddahlgren (Feb 12, 2013)

Danno77 said:


> Where do they figure in CAD (a common side effect of woodburning)? what about SAD (splitter acquisition disorder)? What about going through something like 8 million work gloves a year?
> 
> Fitness? meh. I got all fat and I gather and split all of my firewood. Still had to pay for a gym membership (not bitter, I love my excersize).
> 
> Trust me. I, personally, do not save any money at all by burning wood. Not only that, but I'm on this danged forum all of the time, just think of the ways I could be getting in trouble instead!


 
Well if splitting wood probably be better to be a big guy. i am 5'8" and 165 lbs.I look like I am beating it to death but a big guy 6'2 and 340 lbs the wood probably splits it self to avoid the hit..LOL


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## Augie (Feb 12, 2013)

ddahlgren said:


> Well if splitting wood probably be better to be a big guy. i am 5'8" and 165 lbs.I look like I am beating it to death but a big guy 6'2 and 340 lbs the wood probably splits it self to avoid the hit..LOL


 
6'4" 245 Former Div I Football Player...... Not quite by itself but no too bad. My reach is about 9 feet + length of maul 38 in.... so a 10lb maul is already moving pretty fast if all im doing is dropping it from 12ft....


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## pen (Feb 12, 2013)

Is it just me or is this thread lacking direction?

pen


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## Augie (Feb 12, 2013)

Conversations develop organically and the direction of said conversation can take you places you never thought possible..... that said please excuse the thread drift.....

So who is beating their alternative to wood per million BTU's Delivered? What say you pen...


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## pen (Feb 12, 2013)

Augie said:


> Conversations develop organically and the direction of said conversation can take you places you never thought possible..... that said please excuse the thread drift.....
> 
> So who is beating their alternative to wood per million BTU's Delivered? What say you pen...


 
Certainly does, especially for a thread like this where something is just thrown out there.

Augie, by "beating their alternative to wood per million Btu delivered" do you mean am I or the rest of us able to do it cheaper than that ourselves?

BTW, I'm 6 foot nothing and 165 lbs.  I don't have any problems splitting.  Always up for a challenge.

pen


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## Augie (Feb 12, 2013)

Yes,

Im on Nat Gas. My cost is actually a little higher than that stated by OP for a million BTU... about $13.24 for my local. if my wood is costing me $2.25ish per million BTU coming from my stove I am beating the alternative. My winter fuel costs are about 94% cheaper.

If I were on OIl that number would be closer to 99% cheaper


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## jebatty (Feb 12, 2013)

Coincidentally, in connection with a presentation on wood gasification boilers I'm giving at a local conference on Wednesday, I computed cost per Mbtu for electric resistance, LP and wood based on local prices. For wood, this is the local price ($170.00) per cord cut, split, delivered and "seasoned."

Wood (red oak): $7.50
Electric: $31.10
LP: $17.50


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## pen (Feb 12, 2013)

That's a raw cost.  I think a lot of folks are willing to pay the higher rate simply because they value their time more than I do!

pen


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## velvetfoot (Feb 12, 2013)

It still freaks me out that electric resistance is cheaper than oil.
I guess I didn't include because it wasn't relevant to me because the prices I got around here are crazy.  In anthracite country, it's cheapest.


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## Augie (Feb 12, 2013)

pen said:


> That's a raw cost. I think a lot of folks are willing to pay the higher rate simply because they value their time more than I do! pen


 

You have it right Pen, The real question is, what is the opportunity cost? If you are trading time watching TV for time spent in the stacks, it is a fair trade IMHO. For me the trades I have made are great, I dont consider them lost oppertunity at all. Less Gym Time vs. more CSSing time, or Less TV time vs CSSing time. Also I get to spend time with my father while CSSing on his proptery, Him standing and me CSSing!  So for me the net is positive for both raw cost and opportunity cost. Damn I just reread that, and the Econ Minor is coming out...LOL OH yea my house is warmer too...


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## pen (Feb 12, 2013)

Augie said:


> You have it right Pen, The real question is, what is the opportunity cost? If you are trading time watching TV for time spent in the stacks, it is a fair trade IMHO. For me the trades I have made are great, I dont consider them lost oppertunity at all. Less Gym Time vs. more CSSing time, or Less TV time vs CSSing time. Also I get to spend time with my father while CSSing on his proptery, Him standing and me CSSing!  So for me the net is positive for both raw cost and opportunity cost. Damn I just reread that, and the Econ Minor is coming out...LOL OH yea my house is warmer too...


 
Spot on here as well.

Lots of things in life are a matter of perception. What's work or not worth it to one, is a pleasure to another.

When I started my first professional job, my maternal grandmother came to me and said "I'm so proud of you, and do wish you lived closer. I'd just love to iron all those nice clothes you'll be wearing." The look of complete bewilderment on my girlfriends face, upon hearing the comment, was absolutely priceless.

pen


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## BrotherBart (Feb 12, 2013)

Augie said:


> Damn I just reread that, and the Econ Minor is coming out.


 
Just so you don't start posting demand curves for firewood...  Or The Chicago Schools's views on rational expectations as they relate to firewood.


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## velvetfoot (Feb 12, 2013)

I've been thinking about doing a pellet boiler and just thought I'd take another look at numbers.  Looks like a heat pump could use another look as well.


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## BrotherBart (Feb 12, 2013)

The only issue with a heat pump is service life. Average life is about 15 years.


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## velvetfoot (Feb 12, 2013)

The simplest thing is a wood stove, although some have cats to replace, there are the firebricks and fans for some.  Actually the simplest would be electric resistance.  The others have electronic controls, switches, augers, whatever.


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## Augie (Feb 12, 2013)

I look at it this way, wood for me is minimal cost, for now, Stove Purchase all up was less than $1200(incredible deal, buddy owed me a favor and he owns a Fireplace/Stone Store). I usually spend about 700 keeping my house in the low 60's every winter. Ill spend very little to keep my house in the 70's and so my total cost, Opportunity cost +real cost, by my calculations puts me ahead this year...


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## Highbeam (Feb 16, 2013)

We all should have a woodstove and a saw in any case. I just can't imagine a home without a form of woodheat available. I own a gun but do not shoot people, often. Electric resistance heat in the form of a built in wall heater is extremely cheap and dependable. We're talking less than 150 bucks per heater and you can zone heat.

Like BB, I am concerned with life expectancy of heat pumps. I have several coworkers that have had to replace their entire systems after less than 10 years. 1000$ per year for equipment.


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## billb3 (Feb 17, 2013)

Natural gas and electric prices have shot up here in NE to 5 year highs since  last Summer.
Oil and a wood stove is still working for me, but I'm too far from NG.


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## woodgeek (Feb 17, 2013)

I think service life for HP should def be taken into account. I pump ~60 MBTU/yr, so after 600-900 MBTU, the thing is caput. If I keep my ductwork, a new compressor + blower (they are often paired) should cost <$5k. That works out to $5-8 more per MBTU. Still has a good margin relative to oil and has low annual maintenance (which for oil would be $1000-1500 w/o parts over the same period).

When I bought a HP in 2008, I picked a cheapo brand and a mid-range eff unit, figuring I would get 10 years. Over that period, the higher eff unit did not pay back its difference in cost. And getting a (supposedly) more reliable (and more expensive) brand....the units in 2018+ are gonna be a lot more eff than 2008 models....a more reliable unit might cost me more money and energy overall. 5 years in, the tech has already improved.

FYI, studies have shown that 'annual checkups' on ASHPs actually shorten service life by several years on average...when the tech's kids need braces he 'finds' little problems that need to be 'fixed'. I skip the 'checkups'. I just change my filters regularly, hose off the outdoor coil every couple years and call it good.


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## velvetfoot (Feb 17, 2013)

Are the life spans of mini split heat pumps similar (10 years)?


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## sloeffle (Feb 17, 2013)

I am told that the life span on our GSHP is 25 years since their are no outside units. After the local and federal rebates I had about 1k more into it than an air source heat pump and propane furnace.

When the temps are below 40F I try to run the wood furnace. I can't stand to listen to the geo furnace run most of the day. According to everyone I have talked to they are designed to run for longer periods of time on the first stage of heating or cooling vs off and on like a conventional gas and outside AC furnace. Like the others have said, I am sure that I am not saving allot of money but I like the idea of being somewhat self sufficient.

When you are running A/C you can't beat the geo unit for cooling along with the free hot water.

Scott


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## begreen (Feb 17, 2013)

I am expecting at least 15-20 yr life from our heat pump. That's not an unusual number, especially because we don't use it for cooling most years. It has a high end, very efficient, dual speed compressor. If it has an issue the problem is most likely going to be with a relay points or worst case scenario, a compressor. Both are far less expensive to replace than the cost of the whole unit.

If you don't have a trustworthy dealer to have it professionally serviced, then at least lubricate the motors in addition to keeping the coils clean (outside and inside the air handler).


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## woodgeek (Feb 17, 2013)

begreen said:


> If you don't have a trustworthy dealer to have it professionally serviced, then at least lubricate the motors in addition to keeping the coils clean (outside and inside the air handler).


 
Okay. Looking at the manual on the outdoor and indoor units...the manual says both are 'permanently lubricated' and do not require lubricant.


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