# Loading a Greenfire, Seaton Greenwood



## Trzebs13 (Dec 3, 2009)

Wondering how much wood you guy's put in these things?  I'm on my second year with this thing and so far so good. (other than the dripping creosol out the sides) But One thing I still wonder is how much wood can you put in these things?  Can you stack it right to the bottom of the door?  One thing I have found is that it is true, if it fits threw the door it burns.  Now with that said it dosent seen to produce as much heat with a load of big rounds but it depends what your needs are.

I also thought I'd share my pics of my safety dump.  I used a 40 gallon hot water and a normally open valve.  On the back (inlet) I put in a heat loop to prevent heating the bottom of the tank.  And all in all it works great and was pretty cheap.

The only thing I still want to do is put in a bypass in so I don't get so much tempature drop when my infloor kicks in.  But I have a real problem paying over 200 bucks for a danross valve.  Does any one out there found a less expensive soulution?


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## sgschwend (Dec 3, 2009)

My buddy has a Greenwood, he has been evolving his idea on the best wood for the boiler.  He recently said he watched my Essex burn and could tell that his older method was not as effective as the one I am using, which is I burn slabs trimmed from the logs I mill, every piece of firewood is only a few inches thick. 

Yes, he can put anything in and it will burn, but has found that even a full width crack greatly improves on the burning/heat.  He now has reduced the size of the wood he is using and always makes sure all round have been split at least one time.  

As you point out that design can hold a lot of wood and large or small, but you also point out the issue with creosote stains.  He and I are guessing the larger parts are causing higher moisture level and cooler fires which result in creosote buildup seen on the boiler tubes.  

One nice thing about this design is that it appears to be less sensitive to the location of the fuel.  In the nozzle style like Essex the fuel location matters.  In both cases the fuel needs to be kept small, my rule of thumb is if I can pick it up with one hand then it is small enough, I try to follow my own advice but sometimes I do put in a big chunk.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Dec 3, 2009)

My observation . . .

The same quantity (mass) of wood but greater surface area (loading with small rounds or splits) will:

Burn up quicker,
Heat up quicker.

It seems to me that large rounds (+12" Oak) will take longer to go VSF.

I think you may want to be carefull using observations fro the past say 4 weeks. If you are anything like Upstate NY, it has been unseasonably warm.

Jimbo


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## Trzebs13 (Dec 3, 2009)

Yes last nite I filled it with 3 big wite oak rounds and some small that were cut green in the fall of last year 2008 and this morning there was still alot of the wood left.  Enough so that I won't put more wood in till this afternoon.  So graet burn time.  But it has not really been cold yet.  It only got down to about 30 deg last night.  But as you would guess there was alot of smell in the garage form that damm creosel dripping out.  I really thought I had solved this problem by replacing the chimminey with all insulated stainless, it has helped but by no means eliminated it.  I calked all of the seems thinking that would do it.  But once again it still did.  I sure am glad that I wasn't talked into putting this in my house.  Tonite I'm gunna try loading the same amount in of smaller pcs and see what happens.  If I could get rid of the dripping this thing would be perfect.  But untill then still trying to figuar this out.  And I do not want to explore storage.  It's going to take me long enough to recoop what I have invested and other than my time wood is free so, if I burn more I really don't mind.

But still want to know (in the coldest days) how full do you fill them?


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## Duetech (Dec 3, 2009)

I don't have a greenwood but I fill my EKO until it won't allow any more. With milder temps I'm getting a good 10 hours + even with my walnut. Had a few days with cold windy nights in the upper 20's and still had a good amount of wood left in the boiler. I don't have storage and get a lot of idle time with warmer weather but don't regret filing the firebox full. During the summer I will put in half or less loads and shut the boiler off in the morning and burn again in the evening for dhw.


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## 2.beans (Dec 3, 2009)

when its cold i fill it to the top, some split and some full rounds, so it touches the vessel. i have a 1000 gallons of storage so the idle time is real minimal. before i had storage i would get the creosote drips from long idle times with to wet of wood. i do find that in milder temps just put in less wood. also when you know its going to idle alot put the driest wood you have. if your getting creosote drips then its also building up on the vessel and in the chimney.


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## tigermaple (Dec 3, 2009)

Trzebs13, 
You are burning wet wood. Oak takes a while to dry in optimal conditions. When there is little heat load, the water has no place to go and ends up leaking out the bottom or the stovepipe. I will get better as it gets colder.


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## Jesse-M (Dec 4, 2009)

I'll keep it 6-8" from the vessel, a couple of splits on the bottom then what ever rounds will evenly stack up to that point. I find myself always looking through the pile for just the right piece. This is only when its cold cold, otherwise it's to the bottom of the door.


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## Trzebs13 (Dec 4, 2009)

Hmmmm,  I 'm suprised that it's ok to put that much in.  Last winter I had mostly only stacked it to about the bottom of the door.  But I do agree with the fact that is is not dry I should split one and take a moisture reading but I'm confident in saying that is is not dry as it could be. last year was the first year burning wood full time.  So I did make enough last fall for two years.  So next year I will have 2yr seasoned wood.  And will easily be able to keep that the norm.  In all reality with the wood spiltter it's not really that much work to at the least spilt it once.   So far with just heating the house I figuar that I will only burn about 5 cord.  Now when I get my detached shop finished and start heating that slab I bet that it will take alot more than that.   I'm starting to believe in the therory that this my be better.  To spit it and get it dryer.  I would think that this would decrease my burn times but that has not at all been a problem.  An I had only been filling it to the bottom of the door so I could get a a longer burn by filling it fuller.  And On a side note I mixed up some "Snake Oil" and it actually got some of the cr-ap off the floor.


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## sgschwend (Dec 4, 2009)

I guess what we all need to understand (and I know that I don't know all the facts, or practical facts) is how wood fuel is consumed.  I don't know this stuff completely but I will contribute what I know, perhaps others can add more.

Wood chemically reacts with the oxygen in the air in an exothermic reaction.  Moister trapped in the wood is boiled out and this uses some of the heat of the chemical reaction, hence moisture reduces the heat output.

Sulfuric acid can be produced in a wood fire, moisture in the wood contributes to this (acid attack iron).

No oxygen, no chemical reaction, or no fire.

From this model or description the best fuel would be small dry pieces of wood, the heat output and burn time would be based on the species and the mass of the wood.


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## Fred61 (Dec 4, 2009)

I started burning wood in the sixties at hunting camp and then started burning wood in my home in the early seventes. Most stoves available back then were box stoves. You know, when you opened the door you were looking at the end of the burning log. Over a few years I concluded that if you were burning un-split wood that was even a year or two old, it wasn't dry. Any rounds, even down to 3 inches in diameter would ooze boiling water out of the end grain. My philosophy is that if it ain't split, it ain't dry. When I have a piece that is too small to split, I zip the tip of the chain down the length of the piece which opens up the bark and allows the moisture to escape while it is stacked and drying. I first started doing this only on birch and cherry birch and after seeing the results I started doing it on all rounds.
A one year old un-split 12" chunk of oak will be soaking the entire combustion chamber and if there is any idling you will surely get creosote dripping from the stack.


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## Trzebs13 (Dec 4, 2009)

Well, you and now my own expierence have convinced me.  My Dad has been burning wood in a forced air furnace in his basement for 30+ years and he always has had dryed wood and never and I mean never, has had any kind of issue like this.  I can see where if you had a out door unit that it really wouldn't matter but having it, in doors makes you awaire of all the issues with we wood.

One of the ideas I have is to #1 split my wood for next year and also spit it before I even throw in in this year.  I really have no choice for this year .  I kinda made my bed and will have to sleep in it.  But I would think that even with the added surface area it would burn with less dripping.

The othe idea I may try, is to not let my air intake close completley, but just leave it open a crack.  My thinking behind this is that it wouldn't totaly idel and keep the exaust moving a little.  I know it may take more wood this way but.  The extra heat is just going to be pumped in the the basment floor, which is the dump zone.  So it's not like the energy would be wasted. 

Any thoughts?


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## tigermaple (Dec 4, 2009)

Trzebs13
"The othe idea I may try, is to not let my air intake close completley, but just leave it open a crack."

That is asking for big trouble. The unit will overheat and then bad things happen man, bad things.
Also, these type of boilers are designed to burn big chunk. Using split wood and smalls is OK to get it up to temp, but will smoke more and burn much more wood if used all the time. 
How are you storing your wood in the summer?


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## Trzebs13 (Dec 4, 2009)

I really don't think that over heating would happen.  Once the basment floor (Dump Zone) kicks on even with the biggest fire it will take out 20-30 deg on the water temp in less than 3 min.  I don't know how to calculate it but a 1800 sq foot slab takes up allot of BTU's.

But any way's this is what we do.  After the tree is down and cut to lenght we have the splitter on the back of my ATV and bring the spilter right to the tree and split what is needed.  The Pallet is on the 3 point of the tractor right next to the splitter.  So I split it and stack it directly on to the pallet.   And the smaller limbs then get stacked on as well.  Then we take the pallets in a open field and cover them with a what ever we can find, plywood car hoods steal siding ect.  Then in the fall I load the pallets (24 for this year) onto my trailer and bring them to my house.  I take my Bobcat, unload them and stage them in back of my shed and recover.  I then built my 3rd stall extra deep for my boiler room.  I bring in two pallets with my Bobcat into the boiler room and and chuck in into my stove.  I like making wood but all of the handeling that usually goes on is crazy!  I only touch my wood twice.  Once stacking it onto the pallets and once into the boiler.

Next year I'm building a short pole shed (so to speak) with out any walls for storage.  Just high enough for the pallets to fit under.


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## Trzebs13 (Dec 4, 2009)

And the one other thing I did was install a sprinker system in the boiler room.  Sprinkers go off at 140 deg ( I know that seems low but I got them from a guy who does that for a living) and would contain the fire in the worst case.  All of the warter then would flow to the floor drains and viola.


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## tigermaple (Dec 4, 2009)

You are asking for it. When my GW overheated three years ago, due to the damper door not closing all the way, it was a big mess. The area around the stove hit 140º easy.  The water temp went to 270º screwing all the pex it touched.  My 50k dumpzone  was overloaded quickly. This all started by burning nice dry hickory splits on a 20º night. GW soon started saying not to burn splits, not that they were or the dealer were any help at all. 

I like your wood set up though.


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## Trzebs13 (Dec 4, 2009)

Ok I will pass on the intake air idea!


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## trailhound68 (Dec 4, 2009)

I will not hesitate to fill my Seton 100 right to the top. Mine is a little undersized, so when it's coldest, she needs a lot of wood to make it through the night and the work day. I have not had any problems to speak of as a result. It's best to reserve the big rounds for when you have a big base of coals.


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## Jesse-M (Dec 4, 2009)

tigermaple said:
			
		

> Trzebs13
> "The othe idea I may try, is to not let my air intake close completley, but just leave it open a crack."
> 
> That is asking for big trouble. The unit will overheat and then bad things happen man, bad things.
> ...



I agree with this, *I would not leave the intake in a position that it could not shut down completely*. I subscribe to the theory that burning split wood in these units ( with the surface area ) puts off to much heat. That then get the water hotter quicker, which then causes more idling........ Maybe a drip pan is in order?


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## Jesse-M (Dec 4, 2009)

I can't tell by the pictures, do you have temp. and pressure safety blow offs?


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## Trzebs13 (Dec 4, 2009)

Jesse said:
			
		

> I can't tell by the pictures, do you have temp. and pressure safety blow offs?




That would be Yes the unit came with both a pressure and Temp blow off. on the back of the unit.


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## henfruit (Dec 4, 2009)

i burn just rounds and use splits to get things going. if it fits it burns. ido not have any creosote leaking out of mine. just a litte moisture in the first burn of the season from the refractory. i will scrape down my water pipes when i see some build up on them, but mostly the burn off them self. i just reloaded mine today at 230 pm friday.ihad let it burn out from the last load wed night at 800 pm and still had plent of coals in the ash pile to get it going.  i like the idea of fill it and walk away, no fans or air adjustments to deal with. nice and simple. the way i like life. well have to sit in the tree and see if a deer wants to comit suicide in front of my rifle!


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## Jesse-M (Dec 4, 2009)

Trzebs13 said:
			
		

> Jesse said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...






Very good............Also, I am very envious of your wood handling program...........that's awesome.


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## sgschwend (Dec 4, 2009)

I cut logs into lumber for a living.  I have cut plenty of logs that sat for 5 years.  I found plenty of moisture in those logs as seen by how the wood cuts and by moisture meter readings.  

I think it is likely that unless you kiln dry your rounds you are likely burning green wood.  

To have a boiler maker say you can't burn splits is just a little strange from my point of view.  What happened to the Greenwood marketing statement based on the idea that when the damper closes the fire goes out?  You can't have it both ways.  

Remember that burning green wood will increase air pollution.  Which can cause our big brother to want to become involved.

To compare burning splits to round: weigh the wood to make sure you have the same mass, run the two samples and record the run time versus the fuel gas temperature.


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## Trzebs13 (Dec 5, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Rp1yBpP3xE 

I stumbled on this on Youtube it's in Europe and they measured in it metric but the point is well taken. The video is 7+ min but at 1min 50 sec into it they do a comparison of green wood and a dry pc of dry wood. It really is an eye opener when you watch how much water it takes to the dry wood to equal the weight of the green piece. And if you watch the hole thing, notice there wood pile!! I think the reason all of these guy's market burning big rounds this is because most of us are lazy. And I think that you will get longer burns out of it but at what cost? And if there product is easier to use then more people will buy.

Goes back to a statement I heard along time ago: *Believe nothing you hear, Half of what you read, and everything you see for your self!*

Tomorrow I will test my larger rounds and measure the moisture. 
Any bets?


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## Gooserider (Dec 5, 2009)

Remember when doing moisture checking, the surface doesn't count...  Split the piece under test and measure the middle of the newly split surface.

Gooserider


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## snowman49820 (Dec 5, 2009)

I have a drip pan under my tee and I use an odor absorbing cat litter in it. That does a good job of controlling the creosote smell. I burn mostly two year oak and dead ash.


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## 2.beans (Dec 5, 2009)

if your getting alot of idle time and dripping this is what your vessel-heat exchanger probably looks like if you havent cut the side open and cleaned it  out.the bottom left is the ash build up in the bottom around the air inlet tubes.


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## Trzebs13 (Dec 6, 2009)

You are correct in your assumtion.  My tubes do look somthing like that.  My unit has a pc on top to remove for cleaning.  I cleaned them last spring and they pretty much look a little worse than that already.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Dec 6, 2009)

Trzebs13 said:
			
		

> I really don't think that over heating would happen.



OK, seriously Dude!! If you think you can load an hydronic unit that is designed to be operated with the door closed and the damper open on demand and closed on no demand, but you think its okay to keep the damper from closing all the way . . .?!? :smirk: 

I know you are frustrated but don't get outside the box till you clearly understand the box. If you can run with the damper open then you have tremendous heat exchange (storage or undersized hydronic/oversized HX) or the fire sux!! I'm gonna go SWAG and say the fire sux. I rave about oak, but the oak I burn has been severed from the stump for a minimum of five years. Granted, if it had been bucked and exposed to the drying elements (sun, wind) it would be dryer now or ready earlier.

Though I respect the contributors to this Forum, I would venture to say those who have not operated the refractory mass units (Seton/GreeFire/GreenWood, etc) have good intentions but no relevant expedience :-S Despite the piss-poor customer service at GreenWood, the unit was DESIGNED to run best on UNSPLIT ROUNDS of quality hardwood. Hopefully those with a Euro-style forced Induction downdraft would not ask me for advice on what type of wood to burn. But I thing most of that style their manuals recommend small, dry splits.

You actually give me concern for the safety of your family if you have this unit within your residence and you don't let the damper close all the way!

Jimbo


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## sgschwend (Dec 6, 2009)

Here is the statements in the owners manual I have, you decide:

Owner's manual page 37:

"Your Greenwood Furnace operates with the greatest efficiency when burning large, un-split seasoned wood logs.  If the log fits in the door it will burn.  Small logs and splits are fine too, but they tend to burn faster and slightly reduce the burn time of the load."


They go on to later and defined seasoned as a moisture content approximately 20%.

page 38:

"Note: If you must burn unseasoned wood, mix it with dry wood to keep the flu temperature elevated and avoid creosote formation."



I also want to point out that the moisture in wood must migrate to the surface in order for it to be released into the atmosphere, hence drying.  When I cut lumber for folks we address this all the time because of building code requirements (the spec is 20% or less, magic number commonly used because it can be reached by drying in the air).  The freshly cut 1" thick lumber needs to air dry for 2-3 months in order for the moisture to migrate the 1/2" to reach the surface.  2" thick lumber the drying time is like 6 months.  So if you have the bark on a round providing a moisture barrier the moisture will need to come out of the ends.  That is going to take a very long time to migrate from the end to the middle (9-12").


Good luck,  on your tests.


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## Trzebs13 (Dec 7, 2009)

Not to worry Jimbo.  I have scraped open intake idea.  With out trying it out by the way.
I forgot to do the moisture check today but hopfully will tomorrow.  Lookig threw my wood
I have about 9-10" rounds of the largest and I also have some pallets of splits so I'm going to split a round and take a reading.  And then split a split pc and take a measurement there.  Realisictly I really don't think a 8" or larger round would ever get close to 20% even after 5 years.


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## mole (Dec 7, 2009)

Trzebs, 
Im on my fourth season with my Seton and went through  quite a learning experience with creosote and condensate.  My W-100 is a bit oversized for my house  so it  idled a lot.  The first season I had some awful condensate problems.  The worst condensate occured when I threw a load of wood into the already hot boiler with little or no immediate heat load.   I have collected as much as a quart of liquid at a time in a pot that I kept under the elbow in the stack.   When I did the math, I realized the extent of the problem.  Say you add 50lb of wood to your boiler and it's 20% moisture, just as prescribed.  That's still 50lbx.2= 10lb or 1.2gallons of water that's added with the wood, not counting any of the water of combustion!!  In idle mode, the hot furnace evaporates off the water, which can't rise very far up the stack without any air flow.  It condenses, and pours right out of the elbow behind the boiler onto the floor.  

Next I tried to only light a fire or add a large load of wood when there was a heavy demand for it....which means letting the house get cold before making a fire, or heating the house hotter than desired.  Neither approach made the wife happy, but this way most of that water could be evaporated off in a hot fire.  That helped a bit.  I also bought a moisture meter and began testing my wood as you're doing. That helped somewhat too.  I confirmed that aging the large rounds 2 years minimum is the way to go. There's a real noticable difference in how they burn between the first and second year of aging.   I also tried something similar to the "not closing the door all the way" idea, but a little safer.... I wired a 60 minute Tork timer parallel with the house thermostat which would force the boiler to cycle on once or twice an hour for maybe 3-5 minutes to keep the stack warm.  This also helped, but at times made the house warmer than deired.  Despite getting rid of most of the condensate problems, the boiler still built a lot of creosote on the tubes, so I ended up scraping the overhead tubes very frequently.  I also took the whole back of the boiler off and scraped the lower tubes monthly.  It absolutely sucked. 

To make a long story a little shorter, I ended up building a heat storage tank.  I sized the heat exhanger coils to be able to run the boiler wide open, without any cycling.  It fixed everything.  Now there is absolutely no cresosote buildup on the tubes anymore and I'm even burning blue spruce rounds now!  Condensate is not even a consideration.  The best part is the shoulder season (Oct, Nov), when the boiler used to be at its worst.  Instead of a cold house or an overheated house,  I make one real hot 6hr fire every 3-4 days to recharge the tank and the house holds steady.  It's sweet.  So  if you can't get the condensate and creosote issues resolved and you're on the fence about storage, I'd say go for it!  

JR


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## Trzebs13 (Dec 8, 2009)

The wierd thing is that all of the dripping is out of the bottom of the sides.  Ever since I put the insulated chimney on I get ZERO out the elbow all of it is now coming out the sides?


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## Jesse-M (Dec 8, 2009)

That's where I get it as well. If I burn green wood, the water drips from the same two spots. ( bottom sides )


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## henfruit (Dec 8, 2009)

my wood was cut lat spring and i know some is wet, but i do not get any thing dripping out. loaded lat night at 8 reloaded this am at 7 to a big bed of coals. it took right off agin.


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## mole (Dec 8, 2009)

Mine dripped from all around the sides too, just not as much as the stove pipe elbow dripped.  I got rid of the dripping on the sides by wrapping 1" thick fiberglass blanket over the skin on top and sides.  I think the small amt of insulation brings up the skin temperature enough to prevent the condensation there.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Dec 8, 2009)

mole said:
			
		

> . . .
> 
> To make a long story a little shorter, I ended up building a heat storage tank.  I sized the heat exhanger coils to be able to run the boiler wide open, without any cycling.  It fixed everything.  Now there is absolutely no cresosote buildup on the tubes anymore and I'm even burning blue spruce rounds now!  Condensate is not even a consideration.  . . .
> 
> JR



Seriously, how f'in cool is that!?!

Look at it this way . . . salespeople make a living by S E L L I N G, and in the case of wood-fired hydronic units, many of them do a good job of selling sheetz.

1) "Load twice a day" this panders to our desire to do as little work as possible. Unless you have storage, infrequent loading is going to mean idiling which is going to be bad.

2)"You don't need storage" while this is technically true, this statement panders to our not wanting to spend more money. Though I do not have storage, listening to those who do has convinced me it is THE way to go.

3)"Our unit shuts the fire down when there is no heat demand" Even some of the Euro's say this. I say bull chit. You can't completely stop the burning process for a period of time, then restart it by introducing oxygen. How can you ELIMINATE oxygen from the fire environment??


Jimbo


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## trailhound68 (Dec 8, 2009)

Trzebs13 said:
			
		

> The wierd thing is that all of the dripping is out of the bottom of the sides.  Ever since I put the insulated chimney on I get ZERO out the elbow all of it is now coming out the sides?



What you're getting is condensation on the inside face of the skin of the beast. A cold room, one that's not well insulated, will contribute to that. 
I started my boiler after 11/27, it took some time to get the room up to a temperature that wouldn't make my boiler "sweat". At the same time, the stack drips condensate too because of idling. But, that's all behind us now that there is an almost constant demand. No more drip pans or sawdust, until spring at least.
It is something you have to become accustomed to with this type of boiler.


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## mole (Dec 8, 2009)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> mole said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Jimbo, I agree on all counts.  I'm embarassed and disappointed in myself for not sorting the facts from the hype up front. In my case, my blindness was directly caused by #2 - my desire to not spend more money!
JR


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## Trzebs13 (Dec 9, 2009)

Well my results are in  I can't believe what I have discovered.  I took and spilt a 8" round red oak pc 16" long that I cut green last November and took a moisture reading.  It read 29%-31%.  

I took a split that would have been a 12" round that was cut and split once down the middle las November.  Split that again and got a reading of 27%-28%

So I must say that I would not have thought that this would have been the case but by my findings I would say that I will not be splitting anything under 8"-9".  The larger ones I will because my wife also loads the beast.

As far as the condensation the room is a 2x6 walls insulated with bats and R-board on the exterior And as of yesterday drywalled taped and painted.  So with only 2 walls being outside walls that are insulated to a R-22; the room is not cold by any means.  But I still due understand now that what I'm getting is Condensation.

Storage for me is not going to happen.  I have no interest in #1 spending more money on this system.  I now have well into 10K in the boiler, piping, and pumps, ect.  The way I figuar it will take me 8-10 yrs (at around this years gas prices) to just recoup my investment the way it is.  And thins is not figuring in the fact of all maintence on my equipment.  And not to even mention the time invested in cutting wood.  Don't get me wrong I really like heating my home this way but I could have done nothing but pay the bill for the next 8 yrs and been even.  And the whole thing of having to start a fire from scratch all the time does not interest me in the least.  I just feel at this point where does it end?


Next project is to fab up a exhaust hood and then possibly look into insulating the skins I like that train of thought.


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## mole (Dec 9, 2009)

Trzebs,
Good luck with it. I don't think anyone answered one of your questions about alternatives to a Danfoss valve. I recall reading posts from other people who are using a small pump (some use variable speed) on the bypass with temperature feedback to the pump. I just don't remember the datails...maybe someone else can chime in here? 

By the way, I like your heat dump. Nice simple design. I take it you scavenged the tank from an old hot water heater? Has it been activated under full fire yet? How well does it handle the heat load?


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## Jesse-M (Dec 9, 2009)

What is the theory on this style of heat dump, how does it work?


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## henfruit (Dec 9, 2009)

what style heat dump?


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## Trzebs13 (Dec 9, 2009)

Yes it is a old 40 gallon water heater tank.  I tried calling around and had no luck finding any old cast iron radiators.  And with the price of copper I really didn't even try looking for damaged or used baseboards.  But when I called my plummer and asked him for a water heater (that didn't leak)  with in 2 days he had a 2 of them for me to pick from.  

And as far as it working after I got it hooked up I made a large load just above the bottom of the door.  turned on my in floor and got the fire really going hot.  Then unplugged it and started wating.  By the way the silence is deafining while I'm doing this.  But the intake then closed and the water temp was already at about 180.  The bypass valve opened and the temp went as up to about 195 stayed there for about 30-45 sec and then started to drop.  I let it sit for about 5 min or so and the temp got down to about 150.  I went up and felt the tank and the top 16" of the tank was very hot and the rest of the tank was cool.  So I figuar that there was about 25-30 gallons of water that was still cool.  So I think that I should be very protected with it like this.   The only thing I think I'm going to change some time.  Is run it at a 45 deg angle upto the tank from the boiler and im still trying to think of some kind of finned tube for that piece.  One thing that I think is absoultly nessary is to have the heat trap on the intake in back.  With out this through convection you will start heating the tank from the bottom.  Works perfectly,  The valve and pipe aout the back are hot, and the pipe going back up to the tank is nice and cool.


Jesse:  The reason for this style of heat dump is stricly for a power outage protection.  If you have a roaring fire going and the power goes out.  So all pumps go down, you will most deffinetly have a boil over.  Cuz it has no way to expell the heat with out power.


The only idea that I had heard of for the non Danfross valve was to make a valve with a thermostat from a car.  Which I could easly make.  But I really don't know if I would like putting that restriction in my main loop.  I have helped this big time by turning my mixing valve way down on my infloor.  Now I'm only putting about 90-100 deg water into it.  Big improvment by doing so.


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## Jesse-M (Dec 9, 2009)

So is the ( cool ) water in the tank being replaced by hot water, via thermosyphyon?


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## mole (Dec 9, 2009)

That's pretty sweet.  Is the normally open valve 3/4" or 1"?  If 1", where did you buy it?  Why are you lookin to add the 45deg slope up to the tank?  Is the flow lower than you want?   Sorry about all the questions.    I'm on my second backup power inverter which took a s**t.  Anyway, I 've been waffling between a 12Vpump/relay combination that was suggested to me on this site and  a thermosyphon type dump zone.  My overhead space is limited and your idea would fit much better than the standard fin/tube type thermosyphon approach.   I like the idea of not relying on batteries at all.  Less to go wrong.  It also looks like a lower cost solution.  
thanks.
JR


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## Trzebs13 (Dec 9, 2009)

Jesse:  You got it hot water rises, cool water falls, and S@#t runs down hill.   

JR,  it is a 1" Caleffi normaly open vone valve, here is a link of it:

http://www.caleffi.us/en_US/Technical_brochures/01115/01115.pdf 

Just my suggestion but I would not go any smaller than 1" and if the price isn't much different might even consider 1 1/4. The less resistance the better.  I went with the sweat style connection.  I'm pretty sure that most any of your pluming houses or a hardware store would be able to get it for you.  I had my plumber friend get it for me.  And I even saved a few bucks by saving the 24v power inverter from the water heater when I strippped it down.  The valve runs off of 24v.  And I just wired it up to the box on the back of the boiler which feeds the whole system.

The reason I want to change it to a 45deg is actually so If I do get a bug up my behind and put fins on that pipe it is kinda close to my sprinker head.  Which pops at 140deg, really don't want that going off unless it has to!  LOL

I remember reading about your battery system and I gave it some though and  between atv's, cars, boat, skidloader, camper, generator, ect; I have plenty of batteries to maintain and replace every so often .  No ofence cuz I still like your idea in the fact that you could still heat your house in case of an emergency.  But I am looking at putting in a connection so I can just run my gererator that I use for camping to still runn the bare essentials.

He charged me $165 for the valve (no idea if that is a good price or not)  Got the water tank for free, whic had the 24v inverter on it (which was $17 at Menards) used about 12' of 1" copper and maybe 8-10 fittings, I had put one of the ball valves on last year but had to add another one in back this year.  There not essentail but I really like being able to isolate any particular thing in the system.  And with the vone valve the Actuator is a seprate part so if that would ever go you can just replace that part.

Dont appoligize for asking questions,  that is why I post on here, to get ideas and share mine. God knows that the makers of these things sure don't offer much in the ways of help.

If you can't see somthing in the pics let me know and I will try to get a better one if I can for ya.


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## sgschwend (Dec 9, 2009)

We use outside storage without a problem.  The trick is to keep the rain off of it, flat boards work better than tarps.  Your measured value shows the average humidity for the way you are storing the wood.

Looks like your storage method has removed about 1/2 of the moisture (about 4/5 the way to air dry), with about 20% to go for air dry.

As to the cost of a storage shed?  Lots of folks here use those shade covers, if you like to weld you can make a custom size one for yourself; I have been able to find free used steel well pipe from our local service company; then a heavy gage green or brown tarp to blend in with the trees, and your done.


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## mole (Dec 9, 2009)

Trzebs, 
Thanks for all the helpful info. Now I need to make a decision and get it done! 
JR


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## Deere10 (Dec 9, 2009)

Hey Jimbo      any chance I can get you to email me     Got a quick GW question     Thanks


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## djblech (Dec 16, 2009)

Trezebs13, 
   Thanks for the info. Greenwood sent me a black 40 gal tank that was susposed to be for an open system, I have it just laying around. I think I will try to work something up with that. So you plumb the hot water into the top of the tank, and the cold return back to the stove right?  My greenwood has the new and improved mixing valves and separate circ on the back so I don't shock the stove. I don't think I have ever had it kick in. I have been loading only 2 or 3 of the largest rounds I can get in the door, Maple or Birch, and it seems to burn as long as if I load it up. Small splits and slabs burn fast and really black, maybe because of the bark? My wood was cut last Feb-Mar and stored under an open shed roof, the butts are really cracked up. It seems quite dry.


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## Trzebs13 (Dec 16, 2009)

Yes,  If you read the whole post I did do some testing on both rounds and splits.  I would bet that birch would dry out quicker than a oak but still probably not at the best moisture level.  But when your me that's all I got for this year.  And raelly with it being at 28%-30% moisture I really get very little build up in the chimmney.  Just the dripping down the sides.  Which would happen with dry wood as well.  But larger rounds do seem to give a longer burn time.  But no matter what wood will not dry out in one season unless you put it in a kiln. 

As far as plumming your tank, yes hot into the top and cold into the back of the stove.  Make sure you have some sort of heat loop in it, this concept ended up working great.  I'm not sure that it would have to be as long as mine, which is about 25" but I would think at least 12" so you make sure that your return water does not start heating up the water in the bottom of the tank.


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## sparke (Dec 20, 2009)

TRZ,

I have a Green Horizon 90K BTU unit.  (It is technically a Greenfire but same manufacturer and same exact design).  Anyway to answer one of your original questions - the manual says to load to the bottom of the door.  I find the sweet spot for heat output is 3 large rounds.  This seems to be the cleanest burn.  There is no question this beast burns rounds better then splits.  The reason is because splits have too much surface area and the smoke/gases exits the boiler quicker then they can burn resulting in decreased efficiency.  I do have storage so my unit never idles... With this set up I never have creosote issues even when I was burning green oak the first season.  In your situation without storage, a Samson controller may be the way to go.  With that type of draft control, the unit might not go into 100% shutdown nearly as much, helping with the creosote issue... That is the way my Greenfire originally came from the manufacturer.


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