# Has anyone out there had a Varmebaronen wood boiler?



## gimmegas (Mar 22, 2014)

The reason I ask is that I was really liking what I heard about Vedolux boilers but now my wife is thinking about a pellet boiler instead as they apparently cost less... and there is also an energy rebate for them now.  Well my question is,  what types of issues, (if any) have those of you that have them or are familiar with them had with them? (Vedolux wood boilers) The reason I like them is they seem to be relatively simplistic in that they require just a natural draft. My wife is concerned about installation and maintenance if it 'breaks down'. Thus the argument for a pellet boiler which she claims might be serviced more easily since there are more distributors for them where I will be moving to (Maine). My own opinion is that 'servicing' for this type of boiler might be akin to servicing a high tech wood stove but I certainly could be very wrong and so I would appreciate any information along w/ any pros/cons for or against pellet boilers or this particular wood boiler. Maple 1, I know has a Varmebaronen, and is satisfied w/ it. Maple1, any feedback you could give would be appreciated.


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## maple1 (Mar 23, 2014)

Quick comments.

After what I have been through, I can honestly say that I would do the same thing over again with the same boiler, and the only thing that would make me consider a boiler with a blower on it (of any brand) is if I didn't have enough chimney for the natural draft unit.

I have only had one 'issue' with mine, that being an upper ceramic showing a crack after a few months of use. I have not done anything about it after a year+ later, it hasn't moved & is protected by a layer of ash. Service was a non-isse for me, as I bought the thing by long-distance from over 1000 miles away & nobody around here knows what a gasifier is. Unless there is some sort of catastrophic failure, there is just nothing to service - aside from replacing a ceramic if it comes to that. No idea what pellet boiler you're thinking of, and I have no experience with any of them - but no matter what you do, consider the service they will need & how often it has to be done & how hard it will be. Or, if you are looking at other wood boilers, same considerations. There is nothing that burns wood in any form that is easier to maintain/service/keep clean, than these things. You will have to live with that aspect for the life of the unit. Do lots of reading on here, there are lots of experiences to be read about.


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## gimmegas (Mar 23, 2014)

maple1 said:


> Quick comments.
> 
> After what I have been through, I can honestly say that I would do the same thing over again with the same boiler, and the only thing that would make me consider a boiler with a blower on it (of any brand) is if I didn't have enough chimney for the natural draft unit.
> 
> I have only had one 'issue' with mine, that being an upper ceramic showing a crack after a few months of use. I have not done anything about it after a year+ later, it hasn't moved & is protected by a layer of ash. Service was a non-isse for me, as I bought the thing by long-distance from over 1000 miles away & nobody around here knows what a gasifier is. Unless there is some sort of catastrophic failure, there is just nothing to service - aside from replacing a ceramic if it comes to that. No idea what pellet boiler you're thinking of, and I have no experience with any of them - but no matter what you do, consider the service they will need & how often it has to be done & how hard it will be. Or, if you are looking at other wood boilers, same considerations. There is nothing that burns wood in any form that is easier to maintain/service/keep clean, than these things. You will have to live with that aspect for the life of the unit. Do lots of reading on here, there are lots of experiences to be read about.



Thanks, Maple. That was kind of what I was thinking. They would have to ship it to ME from PA and then 'servicing' would be 'on my own'. I guess if a ceramic tile did need replacing, as long as you could order it would be something that a mason might be able to do? I've replaced tiles in my bathroom, but a boiler is a totally different thing. I hope you never have to find out, but what do you think? As far as what kind of pellet boiler, we are looking at them all. Hopefully someone here will give their thoughts/experiences on them as well. I'm not really researching any other wood boilers at present, but as you suggest, I will keep reading. The reason I am leaning toward a wood boiler is the  easy availability of wood where I will be. Pellets would have to be delivered. Pellets may be a lot less labor intensive, but I don't mind cutting/splitting/stacking wood.  Thanks again.


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## Clarkbug (Mar 23, 2014)

Also have a Varm, but one with forced draft.  

Just a few comments about my ownership.  I have had a similar crack in my ceramics from the end of the first year, no issues with it.  On my third year burning (come up on 20 cord), and will run them another year.  That said, I bought a set of ceramics to put on the shelf, since I was driving through PA and didnt have to pay shipping.  New install is do it yourself, no mason needed.

Your wife's concerns are valid, but your have picked the one boiler that pretty much eliminates everything that could go wrong.  Unless your chimney falls over, its pretty simple to run, not much to go wrong.  I would think a pellet stove will require more maintenance and potential for failure (if anyone is reading this from the pellet room, please dont hurt me!)

Also, that model boiler can have a pellet head installed in it, and will then serve as a pellet boiler.  So you could have the best of both worlds if you really wanted to.  Admittedly the parts would still be in PA, but my dealings with Smokeless Heat have been great, and I have no issues being several hours away.  

There are some great pellet boilers out there, and others can guide you down that path.  Really I would say you should figure out if you want to handle pellets or cordwood first, since thats a big part of the decision.  It would help to know your heating needs also.  3 cord per year is a LOT different from 10 cord per year, as far as space, time, and effort.


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## gimmegas (Mar 23, 2014)

Clarkbug said:


> Also have a Varm, but one with forced draft.
> 
> Just a few comments about my ownership.  I have had a similar crack in my ceramics from the end of the first year, no issues with it.  On my third year burning (come up on 20 cord), and will run them another year.  That said, I bought a set of ceramics to put on the shelf, since I was driving through PA and didnt have to pay shipping.  New install is do it yourself, no mason needed.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your thoughts. I didn't know that you could rig the Varm for pellets. I'll have to talk to Smokeless Heat about it. My heating needs are kind of a guess right now as I'm just getting the structure up. It will be about 3000 sq ft. Essentially 30'x40' with a basement and loft. My wife is concerned about the storage requirements for a wood boiler. She seems to think it will take up too much space. The  utility space I have for it is 13' x 30' which I feel should be sufficient. I also planned to store my wood there as well, but who knows, it could be pellets. I was thinking I might burn as much as 8 cord/year in ME, but that is just a WAG as you can't really predict the weather that much there. They are still getting sub zero weather there and so 10-12 cord might have been the answer this winter. I really don't have any idea about how many #s of pellets it would require for a winter if we went that route and the amount of space that they would take to store them. If you don't mind my asking, how much wood did you burn this winter and how much space are you heating? Sounds like you are averaging about 6-7 cord/year. I understand it was unusually cold for most of us on the East coast this year. I live in VA.  I was thinking I would need to get the Vedolux 60 w/ about 600-800 gal storage. Does that sound about right to you? That is the estimate they gave me at Smokeless. If I do get one, I'll probably get some extra ceramic tiles. Maybe Smokeless can give some guidance for replacing them.  Thanks for your help.


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## flyingcow (Mar 23, 2014)

What part of Maine? Don't need to know the town but up north(above Houlton) central(Bangor) or south/coatsal

Also, whats your target fr R-values in walls and ceilings? 

FWIW, i'm just bit south of Houlton, I think  we're looking at -6f tonight.


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## gimmegas (Mar 23, 2014)

flyingcow said:


> What part of Maine? Don't need to know the town but up north(above Houlton) central(Bangor) or south/coatsal
> 
> Also, whats your target fr R-values in walls and ceilings?
> 
> FWIW, i'm just bit south of Houlton, I think  we're looking at -6f tonight.





flyingcow said:


> What part of Maine? Don't need to know the town but up north(above Houlton) central(Bangor) or south/coatsal
> 
> Also, whats your target fr R-values in walls and ceilings?
> 
> FWIW, i'm just bit south of Houlton, I think  we're looking at -6f tonight.



I'm trying to get R50 for the roof. I will have log walls- spruce. I am also about an hour south of Houlton. I've been following the temps up there. Pretty darned cold this year!


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## flyingcow (Mar 24, 2014)

Well, we'll be definitely close to each other. FWIW, if you're buying wood figure about $200 processed and delivered. I paid $370 per 2 cord loads. It did stack up to _close _to 2 1/2 cord though. Processor tells me the price is going up to $200 a cord. 

Tree length, if you can get it, is up to $120+ a tree length(weighted). I've bought 60,000lbs of tree length, 12 cord by weight. Stacked up to 10 1/2 cord. You might be able to find better deals from time to time, but IMO this is the market now. This might help with your decision between pellets and cord wood.  

There is wood all around us, but the mills are sucking most of it up. I know of just two mills that are using well above 100 cord(each mill) per hour 24/7. 

Also, will your chimney be inside the building or outside?


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## gimmegas (Mar 24, 2014)

flyingcow said:


> Well, we'll be definitely close to each other. FWIW, if you're buying wood figure about $200 processed and delivered. I paid $370 per 2 cord loads. It did stack up to _close _to 2 1/2 cord though. Processor tells me the price is going up to $200 a cord.
> 
> Tree length, if you can get it, is up to $120+ a tree length(weighted). I've bought 60,000lbs of tree length, 12 cord by weight. Stacked up to 10 1/2 cord. You might be able to find better deals from time to time, but IMO this is the market now. This might help with your decision between pellets and cord wood.
> 
> ...



Yes, this info is very helpful. I assume what you are getting is all hardwood. When you buy tree length, is it green or seasoned? And do you notice a difference in water content b/w tree length and precut? I would hate to buy a load of tree length and then not be able to use it for a year. They say you can use softwood w/ the gassers but I would definitely prefer hardwood. Pellets are typically from softwood is my understanding and so BTUs /unit volume might something to consider as well.  Have you ever used softwood in your gasser? If so, what did you think? Our chimney will be inside. Thanks, neighbor.


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## goosegunner (Mar 24, 2014)

I have used red pine and silver maple in my gasifier because I had it from tree removal. Anything will work as long as its dry.  I actually like a mix of soft and hard. It seems to run well that way.  The bad with red pine is it takes up a lot of space for its weight.

gg


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## gimmegas (Mar 24, 2014)

goosegunner said:


> I have used red pine and silver maple in my gasifier because I had it from tree removal. Anything will work as long as its dry.  I actually like a mix of soft and hard. It seems to run well that way.  The bad with red pine is it takes up a lot of space for its weight.
> 
> gg


OK, thanks. It's good to know I can use either.  Where I'll be living there is a lot of hemlock. I was thinking to dry wood out, I could stick some in the oven when my wife is baking bread to dry it out. Might be fatal. What do you think??


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## flyingcow (Mar 24, 2014)

One thing we all forgot to mention......once wood is cut/split/stacked it needs to dry close to a year. This is very important, because a gasser needs dry wood. 18 to 24 months of drying and now you;ll get some really btu's from the wood. Also, IMO, there is no such thing as seasoned tree length. At least not as seasoned as it should be. I had some trees left over from a previous year. Cut it up and split it, still in the mid 20's  on moisture content. But if stacked in an open area(from May to november) I have had wood dry down to 22/23% at best, it will work but later in the winter you'll notice a big improvement when the wood dries down below 20%. I burn all rock maple and beech. 

Whats your time frame on having the house built and into it? Might be able to get 4 cord? all processed and delivered now for late fall early winter burning. At this time I don't know of anyone selling seasoned wood. Google Arthur York-firewood. He's located in Medway, and has been in the firewood business for yrs. He's not one I use, but is a reputable dealer. If someone wants to sell you seasoned firewood, go to buy a Moisture Meter. And talk MC content with them.

the general rule, no matter what you burn wood with, it should be seasoned a year, or at least 9 months. My gasser performs great when the wood is 18%. The amount of wood you'll need a day is more than an ovens full. 

Pellets?? Seems the pellet dealers/processors have been making a decent and consistent pellet. Much better than yrs ago. I'm just going by info from pelletheads around here.


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## flyingcow (Mar 24, 2014)

Also, what is your delivery system for heat? Baseboard?Radiant?,etc. Radiant floors or low temp emmitters work very well with a boiler and storage. How many gallons of storage you think you'll need? 


Heat load calc? Others need to chime in, whats a good link for figuring a heat load calc. This will give you a good estimate of heat needed.  

You say spruce logs? Going to leave them bare on the inside or insulate/walls?


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## gimmegas (Mar 24, 2014)

flyingcow said:


> Also, what is your delivery system for heat? Baseboard?Radiant?,etc. Radiant floors or low temp emmitters work very well with a boiler and storage. How many gallons of storage you think you'll need?
> 
> 
> Heat load calc? Others need to chime in, whats a good link for figuring a heat load calc. This will give you a good estimate of heat needed.
> ...



The logs will be bare on the inside and I will have radiant heat in the floors. I'm not familiar w/ low temp emitters? Please enlighten me. Can/should they be used w/ radiant? In answer to your other question, I already have about 8-10 cord laying on the ground (under the snow). It was cut last summer.  I will be cutting it up this spring. I may give Mr. York a call though as I doubt if it will be ready to burn this fall. A moisture meter sounds like a good idea. The house may be somewhat livable by spring, but it will be something like camping out. Still have lots to do, but I'm retiring so I'll have time to do stuff. As far as storage, I figure 600-800 gal. and the heat load w/ the gasser I intend to get were figured by the dealer based on the size of the house. He also recommended 800 gal. for storage. It's all way expensive but I figure it will pay for itself in the long run compared to heating oil or propane. My wife would kill me anyway if the hemlock didn't.


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## Clarkbug (Mar 24, 2014)

gimmegas said:


> Thanks for your thoughts. I didn't know that you could rig the Varm for pellets. I'll have to talk to Smokeless Heat about it. My heating needs are kind of a guess right now as I'm just getting the structure up. It will be about 3000 sq ft. Essentially 30'x40' with a basement and loft. My wife is concerned about the storage requirements for a wood boiler. She seems to think it will take up too much space. The  utility space I have for it is 13' x 30' which I feel should be sufficient. I also planned to store my wood there as well, but who knows, it could be pellets. I was thinking I might burn as much as 8 cord/year in ME, but that is just a WAG as you can't really predict the weather that much there. They are still getting sub zero weather there and so 10-12 cord might have been the answer this winter. I really don't have any idea about how many #s of pellets it would require for a winter if we went that route and the amount of space that they would take to store them. If you don't mind my asking, how much wood did you burn this winter and how much space are you heating? Sounds like you are averaging about 6-7 cord/year. I understand it was unusually cold for most of us on the East coast this year. I live in VA.  I was thinking I would need to get the Vedolux 60 w/ about 600-800 gal storage. Does that sound about right to you? That is the estimate they gave me at Smokeless. If I do get one, I'll probably get some extra ceramic tiles. Maybe Smokeless can give some guidance for replacing them.  Thanks for your help.



The heat loss will be really helpful for figuring out what size boiler and storage will be optimum for you.  But I see that you are looking to use radiant in-floor, which is an excellent match for storage, since you can run the temps very low but still get good output.  (that is a low-temp emitter, one that is designed to output heat with lower temperature water)  The user "floydian" here has a nice setup that uses one pump, a mixing valve that resets on outdoor air temps, and non-electric control valves.  Its pretty slick, IMO.  But thats just one way to go.  

I have burned about 6 cords, and counting.  My space that Im heating isnt valid to state, since it keeps changing (we are renovating, adding rooms that we are heating), plus we had a baby, changed the temp of the house, insulated, etc.  So I wouldnt go based on my numbers that much...  

The 60 should be plenty of boiler for you, and I would lean towards the 800 gallons if I had that much boiler.  1000 would be better, especially with radiant.  You could start your boiler once and let it ride for a whole day, or multiple days during the shoulder seasons.  

Smokeless Heat can sell you refractory, and tell you how to put it in, but I think its self explanatory, at least for this boiler.  (take out the broken part, put in the unbroken part.)

Definitely think about a heat loss calc before you buy anything.  Thats really going to help you more than we can for speculating on a good size for you.  Its easy for strangers on the internet to spend other peoples money 

Also, get cutting, splitting and stacking now!  Dry wood is a must for gasification!  And look at it this way, if you go pellets, you can then sell your nice seasoned firewood to someone to buy a few more tons of pellets


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## gimmegas (Mar 24, 2014)

Clarkbug said:


> The heat loss will be really helpful for figuring out what size boiler and storage will be optimum for you.  But I see that you are looking to use radiant in-floor, which is an excellent match for storage, since you can run the temps very low but still get good output.  (that is a low-temp emitter, one that is designed to output heat with lower temperature water)  The user "floydian" here has a nice setup that uses one pump, a mixing valve that resets on outdoor air temps, and non-electric control valves.  Its pretty slick, IMO.  But thats just one way to go.
> 
> I have burned about 6 cords, and counting.  My space that Im heating isnt valid to state, since it keeps changing (we are renovating, adding rooms that we are heating), plus we had a baby, changed the temp of the house, insulated, etc.  So I wouldnt go based on my numbers that much...
> 
> ...



OK. So how do I calculate my heat loss now? Is there a formula I can use? I know what my R factor for the roof should be. The walls are a little tricky as they are whole logs. I guess I could estimate using what I think the avg. diameter is. The gable ends are something I should be OK w/ since they are just lumber and glass. Triple pane windows. Do I just give it to an architect and let them figure it out? I concur, I need to cut, split and stack ASAP.


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## Coal Reaper (Mar 24, 2014)

Nothing to add here. These guys got yah pretty much covered. But if you wanted a bit more reading youcan check out the thread in my sig. I have been going through about 4000#s per month, about six cord since the first of october. This included a decent bit of silver maple and pine. They only other comment i have is if i didnt get wood for free then i would just go with a pellet boiler and buy pellets.


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## gimmegas (Mar 24, 2014)

Coal Reaper said:


> Nothing to add here. These guys got yah pretty much covered. But if you wanted a bit more reading youcan check out the thread in my sig. I have been going through about 4000#s per month, about six cord since the first of october. This included a decent bit of silver maple and pine. They only other comment i have is if i didnt get wood for free then i would just go with a pellet boiler and buy pellets.


Thanks, I'll definitely take that under consideration.


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## Floydian (Mar 25, 2014)

Good morning, gimmegas.

A comprehensive heat load calculation is the foundation for properly designing any quality heating system. In particular you want a room by room heat loss calc to show you how many btu's you need in different rooms. This can vary quite a bit. These numbers are crucial as they will determine what type of radiant floor system you will need to deliver the required btus-this can be tricky and radiant floors max out at about 35 Btu/sq ft. The calculation will also determine things like supply temps and flow rates. You really don't want to guess with any of this.

Once you have the room by room calc, you can add them all up for boiler and storage sizing.

As far as the heat load calc itself, the real work is in adding up all of your exterior areas(ext. walls, ceilings, doors, windows,etc.) and most important, assigning the correct R values (or U factors) to these areas. From there it is simply using this formula:

Area / Rvalue X  T  ) = heat load in Btu/hr  )

Or Area X Ufactor X  T  )= Btu/hr

I don't know what you design day temp is but IF it is -10 than your  T would be 80, assuming 70 inside temp.

I am not knocking on your decision to go with log walls but brace yourself for a LOT of heat loss through your walls. Figure R 1 per inch, though spruce might be a tiny bit higher. Your triple pane windows are probably close to the same R value as your walls.

Then once you have your design heat load you can use the heating degree day method for estimating your annual heat load.

I agree with Clarkbug, don't buy anything until you have some reasonable numbers to work with.

If I had a high heat load and I had to buy cord, I would definitely be leaning towards a pellet boiler.

Good luck and let us know what you come up with after you've crunched some numbers,

Noah


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## flyingcow (Mar 25, 2014)

Bare log walls will be the killer in heat loss. If you're exposed to winds it will be much worse. And as yrs go by it will be getting worse. I have r19 walls with 1/2 foam under siding and I wished I'd have foam instead of f/g insulation in my walls.


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## Floydian (Mar 25, 2014)

flyingcow said:


> Bare log walls will be the killer in heat loss. If you're exposed to winds it will be much worse. And as yrs go by it will be getting worse.



This is true. Achieving an airtight log wall is a challenge to begin with. Even if the wall is reasonably airtight from the get go, there is a good chance it won't be after a few years.

This all ties in with a BIG variable I forgot to mention when it comes to the heat load calc. Air infiltration/exfiltration rates can add a lot to a heat load calc and unless you have a blower door test done you will have to guess at this part of the calculation. And as mentioned this could change a lot over the years.

Here is a decent online heat loss calculator that you can play with: http://www.builditsolar.com/References/Calculators/HeatLoss/HeatLoss.htm

Noah


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## Coal Reaper (Mar 25, 2014)

likely you have seen this if you have done much research but...

i like that i have the option with revamping my entire system to fallback on this in the event that i can no longer or dont want to process cordwood.


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## Clarkbug (Mar 25, 2014)

gimmegas said:


> OK. So how do I calculate my heat loss now? Is there a formula I can use? I know what my R factor for the roof should be. The walls are a little tricky as they are whole logs. I guess I could estimate using what I think the avg. diameter is. The gable ends are something I should be OK w/ since they are just lumber and glass. Triple pane windows. Do I just give it to an architect and let them figure it out? I concur, I need to cut, split and stack ASAP.



Depends on your architect...  But Im gonna say to use the info that Noah gave you instead.  At least that gets you in the right ballpark.


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## gimmegas (Mar 25, 2014)

Floydian said:


> This is true. Achieving an airtight log wall is a challenge to begin with. Even if the wall is reasonably airtight from the get go, there is a good chance it won't be after a few years.
> 
> This all ties in with a BIG variable I forgot to mention when it comes to the heat load calc. Air infiltration/exfiltration rates can add a lot to a heat load calc and unless you have a blower door test done you will have to guess at this part of the calculation. And as mentioned this could change a lot over the years.
> 
> ...





Floydian said:


> Good morning, gimmegas.
> 
> A comprehensive heat load calculation is the foundation for properly designing any quality heating system. In particular you want a room by room heat loss calc to show you how many btu's you need in different rooms. This can vary quite a bit. These numbers are crucial as they will determine what type of radiant floor system you will need to deliver the required btus-this can be tricky and radiant floors max out at about 35 Btu/sq ft. The calculation will also determine things like supply temps and flow rates. You really don't want to guess with any of this.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the help w/ the formula, Noah. I will be using it for at least the rest of the evening, and maybe tomorrow too and the day after. I'll let you know what I come up w/. I know the logs will be a challenge, esp.  as they dry. They are Scandinavian full scribe so I won't be chinking. They are red spruce so at R1.16/inch- I figure they are about 12' in diameter on avg. so that should be about R14 for the walls. I'm on it. Great info. I'm on it.


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## gimmegas (Mar 25, 2014)

Clarkbug said:


> Depends on your architect...  But Im gonna say to use the info that Noah gave you instead.  At least that gets you in the right ballpark.


I will be using the info Noah provided. Stay tuned.


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## gimmegas (Mar 25, 2014)

Coal Reaper said:


> likely you have seen this if you have done much research but...
> 
> i like that i have the option with revamping my entire system to fallback on this in the event that i can no longer or dont want to process cordwood.



I haven't gotten this far yet but it's great to know I can do pellets if needed. Wood will likely be cheaper but pellets would be a lot less work.


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## gimmegas (Mar 25, 2014)

flyingcow said:


> Bare log walls will be the killer in heat loss. If you're exposed to winds it will be much worse. And as yrs go by it will be getting worse. I have r19 walls with 1/2 foam under siding and I wished I'd have foam instead of f/g insulation in my walls.


Right, I know they will be a challenge. If I have to I will perhaps use a supplemental source.


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## gimmegas (Mar 25, 2014)

Coal Reaper said:


> likely you have seen this if you have done much research but...
> 
> i like that i have the option with revamping my entire system to fallback on this in the event that i can no longer or dont want to process cordwood.



Great video! Thanks!


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## arngnick (Mar 30, 2014)

I would add that is you are thinking a 60KW I would suggest more than 800gal. I would do a minimum of 1000gal. I am very happy with my Varm also.


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## Retired (May 13, 2014)

[

Hi  I am looking at a Varmebaronen wood boiler.  As this string was titled, "Has anyone out there had a Varmebaronen wood boiler?"  I thought I would ask,   does anyone in Northern Maine have one of these?  I had been looking at a Eko, Tarm or Econoburn.  But, they are about twice the weight.  Plus smokeless heat has modified 500 gallon propane tanks.  I am really thinking of the logistics of getting one in place.  It will be located in the basement which has a walkout door (35 inch clearance).  But, 1400 lbs-plus will be a chore, at least for me.  I plan on installing it myself.  Electrical and plumbing will not be a problem.  Currently I have a 150K btu oil boiler that works fine, so I could even downsize a bit.  Anyone have one out there that is happy with it, or does anyone have a great plan for moving these other behemoths?  Obviously when it is in the basement roller pipes will get it where it needs to go.

My question for a Varmebaronen wood boiler owner would be, how has it held up?  With that much less weight, have they had anything wear out?  From what I have read, most things are pretty cheap to replace as they wear.  Has this been the case?  Thanks for any help in advance


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## Coal Reaper (May 14, 2014)

i will argue that a lighter boiler that is built properly performs better than one with more mass, storage being incorporated in both cases.  the reason being is that it heats up faster, starts gassing quite quickly, and is sending hot water to your storage tanks (storage is mandatory with varms) in short order.  mine is ussually up to 160* from room temperature in about 15 minutes.  gassing starts minutes after lighting.  
as far as built properly, the varms have great welds, very easy to clean, and the parts that do need replacing are not all that expensive.  replacable items are two refractory pieces (5yrs?) and stainless tunnel (3yrs?).   each item is about $150 IIRC. most vedolux owners develope a crack in the front piece of refractory within the first year.  this doesnt effect operation.  there is also some erosion around the nozzle area as with any boiler.  i have made a liner for it that is performing well.  https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/steel-nozzle-liner-vedolux-37.120396/
i have only been running mine for a year.  dry wood is very important.  ~25% heat output is diminished and 30% it billows smoke.  figure out how often is acceptable to do loadings and use that along with a heat loss calc to determine how much storage you need.  plenty of threads on that to read up on.


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## maple1 (May 14, 2014)

I've got 2 full winters with mine now. Well, I'm still burning actually, but now every 3 days, for DHW & the odd quick warm up on a chilly morning. Will try to burn all year this year for DHW, but will see how that goes - letting the electric hot water heater run for a couple of months is no big deal on hot summer days. Not sure how much wood that is all told, something like 14 cords maybe? That would actually be burning full time from October 2012 to right now, except for two summer months last summer. Like mentioned above, I had a top front refractory show a crack early last winter. I might have been the first one to report that actually. But I have done nothing about it, it's still there & hasn't moved - I just keep a layer of ash over it. I haven't looked real close at my nozzle for quite a while now, but last time I looked I could see no noticeable wear. I got a spare set of refractory when I got the boiler, and don't plan on getting any more. They are simple shapes that could maybe be cast with some simple molds - that's what I have in the back of my mind to try when replacement time does come. (You know what they say about best laid plans though...). Even with getting more new ones, they are not that expensive, very easy to change, and not needed that often. These things really shine in the maintenance department - there is nothing easier to clean. I can pull my turbs, fully clean my tubes & have a fire going in less than 10 minutes. I could actually pull my turbs & clean my tubes with a fire going if I really wanted to. I did that once just to say I could - but it would be hard on brush heads if you did it very often.

IMO the lighter weight in this case is a sign of a well engineered product. Thinking about it, every other fuel burning boiler has gotten smaller over the years, and performs better - efficient cold-start oil boilers are pretty darn small these days. Not 100% sure of that correlation - but it sounds good.


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## Retired (May 14, 2014)

Coal Reaper- Thanks for the inputs.  You have some great pictures.  Did you ever try the SS nozzle?
Maple1 Thanks for the status on your unit.  Two years with no real problems is a great start. 

It sounds like neither of you have had any big problems (other than refractory cracks that have not appeared to be too troublesome) and it sounds like you both have tried to figure out how to make your units live a long btu producing life.  If you had it to do all again, is there any other brand or model unit that you would look at, or are you really sold on what you bought?  I really like what I have read in this thread.  I have had some personal messages from dealers of other brands today, so of course, I had to ask what you would do if you could do it all again. 

BTW, I really appreciate your taking time out of your day to send me the thoughts that you have.  It is a big investment and there is very little hands-on product support to help make an educated decision with.  I miss being able to go into a showroom and see the product.  If I was in a slightly more populated state, I'm sure that there would be product to observe.  Thanks again


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## maple1 (May 15, 2014)

I would absolutely do it again - and recommend highly.

(Then again, I have a thing for natural draft, and this is the only natural one out there.)

But if my chimney was short and natural draft wouldn't work for me - I'm pretty sure I would get what Coal Reaper has.


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## Coal Reaper (May 15, 2014)

Hvent put SS nozzle in yet. The other is holding up just fine.  I may switch soon just because i am tired of seeing it sit on the shelf but who knows. 
Yeah, i would do it again for sure. See the link in my sig to read up on some decision making i did. There are boilers with more bells and whistles. Lambda ones will squeeze out another 3-5%, but at what cost?  I wanted a boiler that would be easy to repair myself and didnt have any computers. If you are not so DIY than you may feel differently. Maple takes KISS (keep it simple stupid) to the extreme and it works quite well. Oh and the window is the cats meow!
I spent a whole year researching and designing my system before i even purchased anything. My calculations for btus and loadings were pretty much spot on. Half of the winter i load once before work and again when i get home. This brutal winter prob 20% of it i had to throw a third load in before bed. I designed for 10* but we had many nights below that. If i missed a third loading on those bitter nights it did take quite a bit of effort to bring the house back up to temp. For this reason i found myself tooping off storage tanks whenever it was convenient for me to do so. 
Get the loading unit if youdo go with a varm. Plug and play and done. 
Dean at smokelessheat is great to talk to and he can show you several models in operation if you make the trip out to him. 
Anything else?


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## Retired (May 15, 2014)

I think I will give Dean a call.  My original concern was the weight issue and longevity.  I was concerned if they had cut corners, hence cutting weight, but you and Maple1 have pretty much put that to bed.  I read a thread somewhere where someone bought a gasifier from some company that hadn't held up and was having to buy another one, like an econoburn.  I really want to ensure that I get one of the better units.  I'm happy with the Ford, Dodge, Chevy truck debate.  They are all pretty good.  I just do not want to buy a Chinese knockoff (that isn't exactly built in China).  And, as I do not know anyone in 300 miles with one, I have to ask these questions.

I have a chimney that has two lined flues (9 X 6.5 and 6X6).  I will be away on some winter nights, maybe two weeks in a row, so I will be keeping my oil boiler (or replacing it too), and I have a fireplace w/insert upstairs.  Currently the have the fireplace and a wood stove on the larger flue and the oil on the 6X6.  What I want to do is move the oil to the larger shared flue and put the new boiler on the 6X6.  This way I can operate the fireplace and the boiler at the same time.  The fireplace kept the house pretty good, but would go out during the early hours of the night.  Here in Stockholm it got to minus 20 regularly (but the locals say that this was a brutal winter).  Day time temps stayed well below zero for days at a time.

My problem has been that most boilers want a 8X8 separate flue. The Varm appears to be able to work with less flue as it is blown up the chimney.  I would imagine that I have great draft.  Both the fireplace and wood stove in the basement take right off with no smoke in the house (and they are currently running in the same flue). .The chimney is on the outside of the house but in the peak, so it is about 2 feet above the peak.  It is about 35 feet of chimney, maybe a little more.

BTW thanks for all the inputs on all the threads and posts.  You and Maple1 appear to enjoy sharing your knowledge.


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## Coal Reaper (May 15, 2014)

It dont matter how thick your plate is, if the welds are not perfect than the unit is compromised. Often times increasing plate thickness is an attempt to overcome poor quality steel. Thats even more reason for the welds to fail. That being said, keep in mind that everything does have an end of life. Pressurized systems keep the air out so you dont need to balance with chemicals on the water side.  Dry wood keeps moisture and creosote to minimum on the burn side.


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## Retired (May 15, 2014)

Coal Reaper - So I talked with Dean and another salesman from another company today.  I really like the simplicity of the 37.  It appears that there are no circuit boards to go wrong.  I read in another thread that you had some background in electronics.  So do I, but I really don't want to have to troubleshoot if I don't have to. 

It appears that once you load up the boiler and turn it on, you are hoping that you do not hit your upper limit.  Have I missed something?  Here is my concern.  If I load it up and go to sleep, and loose power, is there a concern?  What if I note that on my real cold nights I want to top it off, how do I do that without hitting the 220 degree cutout if I am already at, say, 170 degrees?


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## maple1 (May 15, 2014)

You will learn how much wood to load for the storage capacity you have. In that respect (and others), the more storage the better. Typically, by the time you need to burn, it will take a full load of wood and then some to recharge storage. And, you will have installed a means of dumping heat/overheat protection that will send the extra heat into your house or elsewhere if things do get to getting on the hot side.


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## Coal Reaper (May 15, 2014)

It would be really easy to troubleshoot or even bypass certain aspects to get you running. The electronics consist of a fan timer, flu temp sensor to shut off fan when fire is out, and water temp sensor to shut off fan if boiler gets too hot. There is also a light and a reset button if that high temp sensor is tripped. 
Ok dump zones aside (as that can be incorporated into any system) the 37 itself has a couple failsafes. FYI a full load of dense wood like oak or bl or black birch will kick almost half million btus to storage. 
1.  The fan shuts off at i believe 100 or 105 or 110*C, i cant remeber which. I am not sure if the pump still runs or not but the thermostatic valve in the loading unit remains open as long as the return water is above 150*F. This allows thermosiphoning IF the top of your storage is above the top of the boiler. Same thing happens if you lose power. In either case the fire dies down to 10% within an hour of the fan being killed.  
2.  There is a cooling coil that you can hookup to your potable water supply or even place a large tank above the boiler and allow gravity feed. A valve that opens when temp hits set point will allow water to flow through to cool boiler. 
3. You will learn quickly how much wood it will take to too off storage. You can weigh wood if you have consitant moisture content. You can also look at the pressure to get an idea how charged it is. Mine fluctuates from 12psi to 20. While we are mentioning expansion tanks, dont forget you need big ones. Budget $500 per 500gals of storage.


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## Clarkbug (May 16, 2014)

Retired, 

Im not in Maine, but in Upstate NY if you felt like taking a road trip to see one.  (Although, its probably more than halfway to Smokeless Heat....and he is near Amish country and delicious pretzels....)  Im not burning currently, but you could see my install.  

Like Coal Reaper and Maple, I had my front refractory crack my first season, but it hasnt been an issue.  I did have to cut down my combustion tunnel some due to some warping, but 30 seconds with an angle grinder and it still worked like a champ.  My rear refractory is showing some wear, and I might swap them both this year to get a fresh start on them to see how they do now that I know the system some.  I like the simplicity of the Varm, and how easy it is to clean.  

I also looked at Tarm, and they make a nice product as well, been doing it a long time.  For me, it was the curved tubes for cleaning from the front that really did it, since I have low headspace in my basement for cleaning.


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## heaterman (May 17, 2014)

gimmegas said:


> OK, thanks. It's good to know I can use either.  Where I'll be living there is a lot of hemlock. I was thinking to dry wood out, I could stick some in the oven when my wife is baking bread to dry it out. Might be fatal. What do you think??




Probably in the category of "fatal error" and the bread would taste funny too. 

If you're buying/cutting up wood in pulp length sticks today, plan on using it for the 2015-16 season. You want to get a year ahead with a gasser of any kind.


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## maple1 (May 17, 2014)

That depends on what kind of wood, and what your drying area & conditions are like.

I can cut white birch now, and burn it this winter. Did that last year, stuff was great. Likely will do some more soon.


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## heaterman (May 17, 2014)

maple1 said:


> That depends on what kind of wood, and what your drying area & conditions are like.
> 
> I can cut white birch now, and burn it this winter. Did that last year, stuff was great. Likely will do some more soon.




True. Birch, white ash, hemlock and other softwoods you can get away with doing that. If you're burning hard maple or oak of any kind better go for 2 summers of seasoning time.


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## Fred61 (May 18, 2014)

heaterman said:


> True. Birch, white ash, hemlock and other softwoods you can get away with doing that. If you're burning hard maple or oak of any kind better go for 2 summers of seasoning time.


Mostly agree with your statement but I'm going to push back a little on the hemlock. It contains a huge amount of moisture and it lies in "pockets" (capsules) within the structure. That's why it pops and crackles so much when it is burned. Back when I had my Wood Gun I was running low on wood one winter and tried mixing some 8 month old hemlock in with my load. All the hardwood would burn away and leave the hemlock in the firebox to be mixed with the next load. Sometimes it lasted for three loads.


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## heaterman (May 18, 2014)

I'll give you that Fred.


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## skfire (May 18, 2014)

Fred61 said:


> Mostly agree with your statement but I'm going to push back a little on the hemlock. It contains a huge amount of moisture and it lies in "pockets" (capsules) within the structure. That's why it pops and crackles so much when it is burned. Back when I had my Wood Gun I was running low on wood one winter and tried mixing some 8 month old hemlock in with my load. All the hardwood would burn away and leave the hemlock in the firebox to be mixed with the next load. Sometimes it lasted for three loads.


 
concur and to add, hemlock can be a pita..all the way around...dropping them makes a mess, have to do lots of limbing, splitting is annoying due to limb knots, may take a full two years to dry below 20% and have a very low mass to btu ratio value. In my boiler a full load burns in record time and leaves a mountainous coal husk....weird. The kicker is I have a forest full...and they are notorious widowmakers.
Still love them though...standing living better. Pretty.

STARTING UP THE BOILER TONIGHT...FROST PREDICTED.

Scott


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## maple1 (May 18, 2014)

Hemlock makes darned good bridge decking.


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## skfire (May 18, 2014)

maple1 said:


> Hemlock makes darned good bridge decking.


 ..

yup....inside the boiler too..


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