# Back Up Generator ?



## MiMod (Nov 27, 2019)

Hi, I'm using a Vogelzang Pellet Stove as the primary Heat source for the first time this winter & I have a Electricity Question about using the generator during power outages.   I have a 6500 watt surge /5500 watt gas generator.   I have read where some generators do not produce the " clean quality " electricity that you find coming in from your local utility.   The problem as I'm told could result in a fried motherboard on your Stove.   I do have a surge protector on mine but how does one determine if your generator is producing a Clean quality of electricity so this doesn't happen ?    Has anybody had an issue due to this ?


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## Microduck17 (Nov 27, 2019)

It really depends on the quality of the generator. My experience is that smaller inexpensive portable generators have poor quality power output. A larger unit like yours is likely to be ok. However I would recommend a line conditioner 

if you have sensitive electronics you plan to use with the generator, i use a similar unit to make my UPS play nicely with my generator.

I don't know what the deal is here butI cannot post a link to the product on amazon.   look for a Tripp Lite LC1200 Line Conditioner 1200W

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk


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## MiMod (Nov 27, 2019)

Hey Thanks I found what you recommended.   So will that just plug into the wall socket by my stove, & then all I do is plug my stove into it ?


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## Microduck17 (Nov 27, 2019)

Yeah just plug the stove into it and plug the conditioner into the wall or into the extension cord from the generator.

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk


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## maple1 (Nov 28, 2019)

I think if I had a pellet stove I would also put a good UPS between it & the outlet. From what I understand, some take a sudden loss of power worse than others. But a decent one would give you some time to get the gennie up & going with no interruption in stove operation. Plus maybe also serve as a surge protector. And maybe a conditioner - but not sure about that part. I would also likely use an inverter generator.


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## Highbeam (Nov 29, 2019)

Unless you want to spend another 750-1000 bucks for a nice generator, the ups is the cheapest way to get safe power outage operation of your stove. Plus, the ups will protect your stove from junk on the power lines even when they are working.


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## peakbagger (Nov 29, 2019)

FYI, Many UPS units use standard batteries that are not hard to replace. Many companies just get rid of them when the batteries go bad but the electronics are fine. I have gotten a few for free or bought used units with new batteries for a good savings. In normal standby use the batteries have about 5 years of life. If the batteries are drained due to long power outages the life goes down.


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## maple1 (Nov 29, 2019)

You'd need a pretty big one though to get much more run time than would allow you to get the gennie out & hooked up.


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## MiMod (Nov 29, 2019)

Thanks, I found this one on Amazon...APC UPS, 1500VA UPS Battery Backup & Surge Protector with AVR.  Its about $150.  Says its 900 watts.  According to my owners manual on my  VogelZang,  Mine will operate on 300 watts but needs 1200 watts to do a startup for the first 12 minutes.    So I guess it would keep it going while I hooked up my generator but if It happened in the middle of the night or when I was gone I dunno how long it would keep things from going haywire.


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## johneh (Nov 29, 2019)

It would not matter how long the UPS works anyway if you are not home 
I have a whole house automatic start unit. Power out 20-sec genny starts 
and power the whole house only way to fly with the number of outages around here


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## Sodbuster (Nov 29, 2019)

This will not be popular and is not for everyone, but I back feed my system by *first throwing the main*, then hooking up my generator to a welding plug, then throw the welding plug breaker to power the house. I've been doing this for 20 years, and it works fine. I had my neighbor who is a Master Electrician look at how I do things, and he told me that while it is not recommended, as long as I follow these steps, I am not posing a danger to anyone. While he was there I went through my routine, and he verified that 0% power was coming out of the panel to electrify any downed wires. During our last power outage from a branch that fell on a wire near our home, I stopped and asked a lineman if he knew how long we'd be out as my generator was a little low on fuel. He looked at my house and saw that lights were on. He looked puzzled and said,"do you have power", because we shouldn't have. I told him no, and that I was backfeeding my panel. All he said, is "did you turn off the main?" I answered yes, and all he said was OK. They treat every wire as hot whether it is or not. Again do NOT do this unless you are comfortable inside a circuit box.


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## Highbeam (Nov 30, 2019)

Sodbuster said:


> This will not be popular and is not for everyone, but I back feed my system by *first throwing the main*, then hooking up my generator to a welding plug, then throw the welding plug breaker to power the house. I've been doing this for 20 years, and it works fine. I had my neighbor who is a Master Electrician look at how I do things, and he told me that while it is not recommended, as long as I follow these steps, I am not posing a danger to anyone. While he was there I went through my routine, and he verified that 0% power was coming out of the panel to electrify any downed wires. During our last power outage from a branch that fell on a wire near our home, I stopped and asked a lineman if he knew how long we'd be out as my generator was a little low on fuel. He looked at my house and saw that lights were on. He looked puzzled and said,"do you have power", because we shouldn't have. I told him no, and that I was backfeeding my panel. All he said, is "did you turn off the main?" I answered yes, and all he said was OK. They treat every wire as hot whether it is or not. Again do NOT do this unless you are comfortable inside a circuit box.



You can legally and safely do this, without worry, by installing a cheap and effective interlock on your panel. All it does is force you to turn the main off before backfeeding. It’s a simple little metal tab.


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## semipro (Nov 30, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> FYI, Many UPS units use standard batteries that are not hard to replace. Many companies just get rid of them when the batteries go bad but the electronics are fine. I have gotten a few for free or bought used units with new batteries for a good savings. In normal standby use the batteries have about 5 years of life. If the batteries are drained due to long power outages the life goes down.


My experience also but 5 years goes fast and then some incessant beeping from the UPS notifies you of a bad one (after you spend a while figuring out why the damned thing is beeping). They're fairly inexpensive though - typically lead-acid gel cells.


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## AlbergSteve (Nov 30, 2019)

Interlock and backfeeding totally illegal in BC, if not most of Canada.  BC and Quebec don't allow the meter _*collar *_either. Here the only way is a transfer switch.


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## jatoxico (Nov 30, 2019)

Transfer switch here and small inverter generator. Running  a 5000-6000 w gen flat out no matter the demand is a waste. The smaller unit runs all needs though not at the same time, and gets 8-10hrs per gallon. Done the big gas generator in a long outage and its loud, expensive and difficult to keep them fed.

If I had natural gas I'd go whole house.


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## johneh (Nov 30, 2019)

jatoxico said:


> If I had natural gas I'd go whole house.


My whole house unit is propane fired
no NG here
Backfeed and interlock is not legal in Ontario
If you are caught with one or the other they cut you off 
Then you have to have an inspection done and a reconnect 
and that costs


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## Highbeam (Dec 1, 2019)

AlbergSteve said:


> Interlock and backfeeding totally illegal in BC, if not most of Canada.  BC and Quebec don't allow the meter _*collar *_either. Here the only way is a transfer switch.



Went back and checked, the op didn’t say he was from canadia and the poster suggesting the illegal backfeeding is from us where the interlock is very legal. 

Crazy you Canadians can’t use this safe device to backfeeding your panel legally. Yet you can have stoves in your garage!


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## ABMax24 (Dec 1, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> Went back and checked, the op didn’t say he was from canadia and the poster suggesting the illegal backfeeding is from us where the interlock is very legal.
> 
> Crazy you Canadians can’t use this safe device to backfeeding your panel legally. Yet you can have stoves in your garage!




That's debatable as to whether a solid fueled heater can be installed in a garage. Here is how it reads:
_An appliance shall not be installed in a location where a corrosive atmosphere, flammable gas or vapour, combustible dust, or combustible fibres may be present. An appliance may be installed in a (a) storage or residential garage, provided that the appliance is mounted at least 450 mm (18 in) above floor level and protected against physical damage _

To me since flammable vapours could be present its illegal.

But yes the CSA electrical code is more stringent in many ways then the NEC. Even things such as a smart energy meter are illegal in an electrical panel, as the panel wasn't certified for such a use.

But this is off topic.

My thought should I ever need is to have the parts on hand to backfeed from my dryer plug with the main switch off in the event of power outage. But i haven't yet had the need, we have only had a single power outage lasting 3hrs in the last 3 years.


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## peakbagger (Dec 1, 2019)

ABMax24 said:


> My thought should I ever need is to have the parts on hand to backfeed from my dryer plug with the main switch off in the event of power outage. But i haven't yet had the need, we have only had a single power outage lasting 3hrs in the last 3 years.



I have the same approach. I have a contingency plan in place and the parts in stock and made up. The logical place to tie in my generator is in a subpanel in a detached garage. In order to install a transfer switch and feed it from the garage I would need to install a lot of big conduit and copper. In the case of a major electrical event where the whole grid is down i might be tempted to  do a backfeed if I am going to be down for days. There was one of these events in 1998 in the region but unlike many homes around in my town I only lost power for about 10 hours when the entire transmission grid was down.  Due to a combination of the majority of the neighborhood having underground services, aggressive proactive utility  clearing of lines and automatic reclosers and remote switching on the local utility circuits, I have reliable power, if I didnt I would put in the wiring and do it right with a transfer switch. Since I bought the generator in early 2000 after the Y2K hysteria was over, I have not lost power long enough to even think about running the generator.  I have a woodstove in the basement that will heat the entire house, a shallow well with a bucket for water and camping gear, that covers my required "survival" gear.


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## Gearhead660 (Dec 1, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> You can legally and safely do this, without worry, by installing a cheap and effective interlock on your panel. All it does is force you to turn the main off before backfeeding. It’s a simple little metal tab.


They sell everything needed to do this at local home improvement store.   Turn off all circuits,  including main, plug gen into plug outside, start it up, and turn on circuits you need at main panel.


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## velvetfoot (Dec 1, 2019)

The pellet stove should not fill your house with smoke if there is a power outage.  If there isn't enough draft to do this reliably, I'd think you'd want a UPS to at least power the draft fan for a while.

I'm jazzed about the new Harbor Freight Predator 3500 inverter generator I  got recently.  It has a NEMA L5-30 outlet.  I'll plug an adapter, like this, into the genny, and plug a 10/4 cord with NEMA L14-30 ends, like this, which is plugged into the input receptacle on the side of the house, which feeds a 2 pole breaker in the panel via a Square D (panel brand) interlock .

I can feed most all the load in the house, minus the 240v. loads, which I deactivate at the panel, with the 125v. genny.  I break out the larger genny for those, like the well pump.  Just have to take the adapter off and plug in.


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## jatoxico (Dec 1, 2019)

velvetfoot said:


> The pellet stove should not fill your house with smoke if there is a power outage.  If there isn't enough draft to do this reliably, I'd think you'd want a UPS to at least power the draft fan for a while.
> 
> I'm jazzed about the new Harbor Freight Predator 3500 inverter generator I  got recently.  It has a NEMA L5-30 outlet.  I'll plug an adapter, like this, into the genny, and plug a 10/4 cord with NEMA L14-30 ends, like this, which is plugged into the input receptacle on the side of the house, which feeds a 2 pole breaker in the panel via a Square D (panel brand) interlock .
> 
> I can feed most all the load in the house, minus the 240v. loads, which I deactivate at the panel, with the 125v. genny.  I break out the larger genny for those, like the well pump.  Just have to take the adapter off and plug in.



I am already doing this and am very happy. Nothing like being able to let the refrig run for hours on end or sleep with ceiling fans on etc without the waste, noise and expense of a traditional gen-set.

I am not an electrician but if I understand what you're doing you will be feeding both sides of your panel which means that unlike pole power, when running the inverter they will be in phase. That can be fine but you should carefully check for Multi Wire Branched Circuits. This common type of home wiring has two hots that share a neutral. Because normally the two hots are on opposite sides of the panel (out of phase) there is no  chance of overloading the neutral. On the inverter they will be in phase and you can fry the neutral. That's why you can't just buy the extension you're making up.


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## velvetfoot (Dec 1, 2019)

jatoxico said:


> That's why you can't just buy the extension you're making up.


?  I bought the adapter in link above.

It works fine for my Honda EU2000i.
The house is fairly new, and I'm pretty sure it's not wired like that.


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## jatoxico (Dec 1, 2019)

velvetfoot said:


> ?  I bought the adapter in link above.
> 
> It works fine for my Honda EU2000i.
> The house is fairly new, and I'm pretty sure it's not wired like that.



What you linked says it "bridges", or ties the two hots together on the 3 prong. On the 4 prong they're separated. That's so that on pole power or on trad gen-set they're out of phase. Notice you can't purchase one of these cords pre-made down at the Depot. Don't think it matters about the age of the house.

You can do this safely but if you're feeding both sides of your panel with a 120 v inverter you should check.


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## Sodbuster (Dec 1, 2019)

AlbergSteve said:


> Interlock and backfeeding totally illegal in BC, if not most of Canada.  BC and Quebec don't allow the meter _*collar *_either. Here the only way is a transfer switch.



What _is_ legal in Canada? I realize backfeeding is not for everyone, and if you do it, don't do it on my recommendation. Like I said, I've been doing this for 20 years and have talked to (2) professionals one who actually checked my setup and the other who works on the lines that feed my system. If it's illegal, it's illegal. But I've yet to see the penal code refereced for this illegal activity. It's no more illegal than an improper lane change or running a red light, and causing an accident.


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## velvetfoot (Dec 1, 2019)

jatoxico said:


> What you linked says it "bridges", or ties the two hots together on the 3 prong. On the 4 prong they're separated


No.  3 prong  is hot, neutral, ground.  Hots joined on 4 prong side of adapter.  See HD Adapter. Cause genny only delivers 125v. Note that its described: the NEMA L14-30R is a 30 Amp, 125/250-Volt, 4-prong female connector.


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## jatoxico (Dec 1, 2019)

velvetfoot said:


> No.  3 prong  is hot, neutral, ground.  Hots joined on 4 prong side of adapter.  See HD Adapter. Cause genny only delivers 125v. Note that its described: the NEMA L14-30R is a 30 Amp, 125/250-Volt, 4-prong female connector.



You have it backwards. The 3 prong goes into your inverter which is only capable of putting out 120 v in a single phase. The x and y that are normally separate are tied together in the one hot on the three prong. With the adapter the 2 hots run then through the extension cord as separate wires but they are in phase. So you are feeding your 2 pole panel with a single phase source.


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## velvetfoot (Dec 1, 2019)

It's semantics.  This is all single phase.  Two legs for 240, one and a neutral for 120.  The two wires in the connection cable designated as 'hots' are joined together in the 4-prong side of the adapter.


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## jatoxico (Dec 1, 2019)

I'm only trying to alert you to a potential problem/danger so don't take my persistence as being a PITA. It may be semantics but no question you can overload the neutral if you try running a circuit wired as an MWBC. It takes a couple minutes to check for them.


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## Highbeam (Dec 2, 2019)

It is extremely rare and weird, though possible, to have any multi wire branch circuits in a residence. 

Be careful not to confuse illegal backfeeding of a panel with legal (in the us) backfeeding of a panel equipped with the proper interlock device.


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## ABMax24 (Dec 2, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> It is extremely rare and weird, though possible, to have any multi wire branch circuits in a residence.
> 
> Be careful not to confuse illegal backfeeding of a panel with legal (in the us) backfeeding of a panel equipped with the proper interlock device.



I guess depending on situation and location. Almost every 120 volt 15 amp circuit in my house is a multiwire branch circuit. Our house was built in 2014. It saves a lot of money for the electrical contractor, they have to pull half as many cables, and uses 2/3 the copper.


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## Sodbuster (Dec 3, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> It is extremely rare and weird, though possible, to have any multi wire branch circuits in a residence.
> 
> Be careful not to confuse illegal backfeeding of a panel with legal (in the us) backfeeding of a panel equipped with the proper interlock device.




That sheet metal back-feed device that you have to manually throw, before you start to backfeed? I don't see much of a difference.


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## WinterinWI (Dec 3, 2019)

Sodbuster said:


> That sheet metal back-feed device that you have to manually throw, before you start to backfeed? I don't see much of a difference.



It physically prevents the main and the backfeed from being on at the same time. So when the power goes out on a Saturday night after you've had one too many, the panel can't be accidentally energized by the backfeed breaker while the main is on.

It just forces you to remember to turn off the main first.


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## semipro (Dec 3, 2019)

WinterinWI said:


> It physically prevents the main and the backfeed from being on at the same time. So when the power goes out on a Saturday night after you've had one too many, the panel can't be accidentally energized by the backfeed breaker while the main is on.
> 
> It just forces you to remember to turn off the main first.


Our generator is easy enough to start that my wife could probably do it if I wasn't home to do it.  
The interference interlock makes it a lot easier to tell her how to configure the electrical connections safely and keeps me from botching the same.  
Its cheap insurance to save some lineman's life.


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## Highbeam (Dec 3, 2019)

WinterinWI said:


> It physically prevents the main and the backfeed from being on at the same time. So when the power goes out on a Saturday night after you've had one too many, the panel can't be accidentally energized by the backfeed breaker while the main is on.
> 
> It just forces you to remember to turn off the main first.



Yes! It is how the way to make backfeeding safe and legal. Mine was permitted and inspected.

You, @Sodbuster ,  are correct that it is functionally the same except the lockout eliminates the possibility that you forget about shutting off the main first. 

A couple of things could happen if you forgot to throw the main because you failed to install an interlock. One, your poor generator tries to energize the whole city. Bam! the generator's breaker pops. Or two, say the powerline between your home and the transformer is broken, then you have just created a hot line laying on the ground that could actually zap someone.


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## Sodbuster (Dec 3, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> Yes! It is how the way to make backfeeding safe and legal. Mine was permitted and inspected.
> 
> You, @Sodbuster ,  are correct that it is functionally the same except the lockout eliminates the possibility that you forget about shutting off the main first.
> 
> A couple of things could happen if you forgot to throw the main because you failed to install an interlock. One, your poor generator tries to energize the whole city. Bam! the generator's breaker pops. Or two, say the powerline between your home and the transformer is broken, then you have just created a hot line laying on the ground that could actually zap someone.



Around here, when you call in a power outage they ask you if you'll have a generator running, I always say yes. I assume as computerized things are theses days that the information goes right to the lineman's computer letting the crew know their is a chance of a hot wire.


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## jatoxico (Dec 4, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> It is extremely rare and weird, though possible, to have any multi wire branch circuits in a residence.



No evidence to prove it but I wouldn't be surprised to find it's regional. I looked and sure enough I have a couple. Installed incorrectly too. The breakers are supposed to be connected (that's what those holes are for) when wired as an MWBC so they throw together.


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## velvetfoot (Dec 6, 2019)

That adapter plug I referenced earlier came in yesterday.  Seems well made.


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## maple1 (Dec 11, 2019)

I have MWBCs also. Never knew what they were until reading about them in this place. Explained that issue that time when I tried to feed 120 to both sides of my panel.

Wish Interlocs were legal here. Sure would make things simple. I think their logic is, that it isn't 'fool proof', because the hardware is attached to the panel cover (or at least the ones I looked at were that way), so if the panel cover is removed, there goes your safety device. Which I guess they may have a point on, but seems silly to me. Are there that many people who take their panel cover off? There are likely many fold more people who just throw the main (as long as they remember - and also remember to unplug the genny before they unthrow it again) & do it a more 'wrong way'. Which come to think of, I don't think I have ever heard of anyone actually getting in serious trouble for somehow.

EDIT: And another thing - why aren't there more 240v inverter gennies on the market? One of those would be sweet. I stumbled on a nice looking Champion 6000w open frame one last night on the net. Not available in Canada. Huh, OK. So it's a $5000 Honda, or a $3000+ B&S that has mixed reviews and not sure is available here or not either.


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## peakbagger (Dec 11, 2019)

I have known several  folks who pull the panel cover and just plug in a 240 dual breaker to backfeed a panel. The rational from one friend (an electrician) was during an extended power outage they were driving around the neighborhood with a generator to allows several homes to have power for a few hours to run their heat and keep the freezers running. The houses did not necessarily have standard dryer plugs or secondary panels with the right breakers so to them it was easier to open a basement window , drag a cord in, pop the panel cover and plug in an appropriate sized breaker. It usually took the people he was helping having the breaker trip out once or twice until they figured that the power from the generator was not unlimited.


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## begreen (Dec 13, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> I have known several  folks who pull the panel cover and just plug in a 240 dual breaker to backfeed a panel. The rational from one friend (an electrician) was during an extended power outage they were driving around the neighborhood with a generator to allows several homes to have power for a few hours to run their heat and keep the freezers running. The houses did not necessarily have standard dryer plugs or secondary panels with the right breakers so to them it was easier to open a basement window , drag a cord in, pop the panel cover and plug in an appropriate sized breaker. It usually took the people he was helping having the breaker trip out once or twice until they figured that the power from the generator was not unlimited.


That's how I had to power the house during an extended outage when we first moved in. We had a Coleman contractor generator that had 240v out. I knew what i was doing but still wouldn't trust myself and triple checked to make sure there was no backfeeding.


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## begreen (Jun 10, 2020)

I would not run a modern pellet stove without a good quality surge protector. We lost the board in our pellet stove due to a surge during the summer. Went to start it up in fall and it was no-go.


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## Sodbuster (Jun 10, 2020)

I'll just say this and it's worth what you paid for it. I've run backfed backup generators for about 15 years. I've run laptops, and other devices with circuit boards, and have never experienced a problem.  Take this for what it's worth.


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## Sodbuster (Jun 10, 2020)

I also know a lineman, you know the guy with the big bucket lift. He told me they treat every wire as HOT.


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## Sodbuster (Jun 10, 2020)

begreen said:


> I would not run a modern pellet stove without a good quality surge protector. We lost the board in our pellet stove due to a surge during the summer. Went to start it up in fall and it was no-go.



You can blow the boards on any electronic devices unless you unplug them during a power outage. It is why the power company advises you to unplug any sensitive power equipment while the power is out, because when the power is restored it can cause a surge.


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## begreen (Jun 10, 2020)

Sodbuster said:


> You can blow the boards on any electronic devices unless you unplug them during a power outage. It is why the power company advises you to unplug any sensitive power equipment while the power is out, because when the power is restored it can cause a surge.


Great advice, but the homeowner often has absolutely no clue when an outage or a power surge is going to occur. They may be away from home at work or the outage then surge may occur within seconds. We have a UPS now in front of all most valuable electronics, but not all. Some are harder to protect now that they are in our ovens, washers, dryers, dishwashers and refrigerators.


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## Sodbuster (Jun 10, 2020)

That is true, if you are not home or unaware of the outage, then you are out of luck. The only thing I can offer, is at least with out Power Company is they advise that you do this. If you aren't home theirs not much you can do. I can say that I've never had a product fail over a power surge.


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## begreen (Jun 10, 2020)

A friend down the road had his heat pump electronics fried during a power surge. Now he has a surge protection circuit installed. When it will happen is unknown. Some areas and devices will be more prone to failure than others.


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## peakbagger (Jun 11, 2020)

If the surge to the heat pump came in from the grid, a *good* Surge Protection Device (SPD) on the incoming power line from the utility in the main panel will protect the equipment. If the surge came in via a lighting strike or reflected strike then all bets are off. I am careful to note a *good *SPD as some like the old Delta "can style" are safety devices designed to shunt power to ground to protect the wiring of the house rather than the equipment. Ideally the SPD should be sized to shunt at voltage close to the line voltage. Midnight Solar is a recognized US manufacturer that makes these lower shunt voltage devices http://www.midnitesolar.com/products.php?menuItem=products&productCat_ID=23&productCatName=SPD They have various videos on You Tube showing how SPDs work and comparisons between brands. 

Note that SPDs do not protect from under voltage from a utility (or a generator). a motor draws power which is measured by wattage (volts times current (expressed in amps)). If the voltage is low, wattage is high and that is what an equipment fuse or circuit breaker is for. Some folks get confused that the fuse or  circuit breaker in the panel is sized to protect the equipment, that is incorrect, the fuse or breaker in the panel is sized to keep the wiring, switches and outlets from overheating and possibly melting. Sure it protects from a high current flow like a short in the equipment but a sustained low voltage event can cook a piece of equipment if its not equipped with its own breaker or fuses.  

So a SPD  may protect for over voltage and an equipment fuse or breaker may protect from undervoltage but it may or may not protect from a third power quality issue which is frequency. Grid frequency is pretty well locked in, the entire east coast of the US is humming along at the same 60HZ frequency. Generators on the other hand need to have a governor that controls the engine speed to generate clean  frequency. Generally cheap generators will have a cruder governor and the frequency can move around a bit. For most power tools it really doesn't hurt things but sensitive electronics with poor quality power supplies can be impacted. Some Harbor Freight generators used to be labeled that they were not intended for sensitive electronics. The bigger problem with frequency is a choppy waveform. AC power from the grid or standard generator should have a nice smooth sinusoidal waveform, unfortunately AC powered derived from DC sources like batteries and solar panels have to  be converted to AC. Older UPS's and DC to AC inverters sometimes were sold as "modified sine wave". Instead of a nice smooth sine wave, a modified sine wave can be very choppy. This can be hard on rotary equipment as they can heat up due to the dirty waveform. Some of the solar pioneers found out over the years that various home applicances like washers, dryers and refrigerators would die prematurely and many manufactures would void the warranty for other than grid power. Computers usually have switched mode power supplies that can take dirty waveforms so an older computer UPS did not necessarily have a great waveform. Power electronics have gotten a lot better over the years and most inverters put out a good quality sine wave but  if you have an older UPS it may be a source of dirty power. Its probably not a short term issue for a backup situation. 

Once someone gets into three phase systems that are used in businesses and farms, harmonics start to factor in but it should be non issue for homes.  The other rarer  issue that pops up at farms and poorly designed commercial systems is ground currents but not typically an issue in home systems.


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## Sodbuster (Jun 11, 2020)

I was going to say, I have no idea what they cost, but I believe an Electrician can install a whole house surge protector.


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## tlc1976 (Jul 22, 2020)

I have a 7 or 8 kw whole house generac that fires up automatically if power is lost. Run by propane because natural gas isn’t available. It’s nice for short outages of a few hours which thankfully is all I have. But for an extended outage I did the math and it would burn through $100 of propane in 24 hours, or about 10% of the tank. In cases like that especially in the winter when I need to keep the stove going I’d rather have a gas generator to run a few essentials.


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## ben94122 (Aug 4, 2020)

My parents live where there are quite a few vacation/second homes, empty for much of the year.  When they have a long power outage, they hear lots of neighbors' propane generators kick in and run for a week or two until they have drained the tank...all with nobody home!


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## johneh (Aug 4, 2020)

I am never away long enough to worry about it running out of propane 
also if I were away the unit sends a message to my son's phone 
indicating low fuel. I want my unit to run if no one is home especially in the winter
this way the house stays warm and I don't come home to frozen pipes


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## begreen (Aug 4, 2020)

ben94122 said:


> My parents live where there are quite a few vacation/second homes, empty for much of the year.  When they have a long power outage, they hear lots of neighbors' propane generators kick in and run for a week or two until they have drained the tank...all with nobody home!


Had that happen around here too. 
I suspect lots of generators are running right now from PA to ME. NY has lots of outages.


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## Brian26 (Aug 7, 2020)

begreen said:


> Had that happen around here too.
> I suspect lots of generators are running right now from PA to ME. NY has lots of outages.



Been running this $100 Harbor Freight 900 watt unit here in CT since Tuesday. I bought it like 10 years ago and it's honestly a pretty solid unit. Using my kill a watt meter it actually provides pretty stable power. I use it just to run my fridge, a few lights, chargers, etc.  I'm on city water and near the water so I can get by just fine with.  Runs close to 6 hours on average with a gallon of 2 cycle.


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## billb3 (Aug 19, 2020)

Some electronics will shut down or just plain freeze  if the electric supply is not a pure sine wave and/or the frequency is off by +/-X%. Cheap generators can be fairly dirty power-wise.


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