# How  to stop oil boiler from firing unless needed



## iceguy4 (Dec 1, 2012)

Pb 105 installed...up and running  Changed all my set back thermostats (up from 50 degrees) and now my wife is very happy(house @ 70+ degrees) My oil still come on at times but in 24 hours it has only run 30 min (hour meter). would like to nip that in the butt. My boiler is plumbed in series and no one here seems to know how to stop my oil burner from comming on . I only want my oil to come on in an emergency. Can anyone help?


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## kopeck (Dec 1, 2012)

Is your oil boiler a cold start?

With my setup, which is quite different then yours, I just use a JC A419 to monitor my storage temp.  If it fall below a set point then the oil boiler kicks on for heat calls.

You don't have anything like that and I'm not sure what you could use to trigger your oil boiler in an emergency.  I might talk who ever you purchased the boiler from.  Makes me wonder if the boiler has some provision for this built in?

K


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## harttj (Dec 1, 2012)

I installed a strap on aqua stat. Temp in the boiler falls below 140 and propane kicks in.


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## Gasifier (Dec 1, 2012)

My storage tank has an aquastat on it that triggers the oil boiler when the tank goes below say 140 or whatever I have it set at. Could you put an aquastat on your PB to do the same? I do not know how to do it. I hired my installation done. How do you like the PB so far?


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## ozzie88 (Dec 1, 2012)

iceguy4 said:


> Pb 105 installed...up and running  Changed all my set back thermostats (up from 50 degrees) and now my wife is very happy(house @ 70+ degrees) My oil still come on at times but in 24 hours it has only run 30 min (hour meter). would like to nip that in the bud. My boiler is plumbed in series and no one here seems to know how to stop my oil burner from comming on . I only want my oil to come on in an emergency. Can anyone help?


 Most oil boilers come on when there temp. goes down to certian temp. An oil boiler just sitting there looses heat by the air flow going threw them all the time which will cool them off alot. by alowing air to go threw the pump inlet and out the flue,which cools boiler,  I PUT A FLUE ELE. control flap which comes on and off with the pump, on my boiler and it keeps all heat in boiler, stops the air flow cooling it, and I must say it cut down the usage  ALOT,


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## stephenmoore (Dec 1, 2012)

iceguy4 said:


> Pb 105 installed...up and running  Changed all my set back thermostats (up from 50 degrees) and now my wife is very happy(house @ 70+ degrees) My oil still come on at times but in 24 hours it has only run 30 min (hour meter). would like to nip that in the bud. My boiler is plumbed in series and no one here seems to know how to stop my oil burner from comming on . I only want my oil to come on in an emergency. Can anyone help?


I Have a PB 105 and use an electric boiler as back up, if both units are piped into the primary loop of your system, you should be able to add a second thermostat to the main zone of your house, if your pellet boiler runs out, the oil fired furnace should kick in after the temp drops.It works great for me.


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## ozzie88 (Dec 1, 2012)

www.hearth.com › ... › The Boiler Room - Wood Boilers and Furnaces   Check this site out explanes more


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## iceguy4 (Dec 1, 2012)

kopeck said:


> Is your oil boiler a cold start?
> 
> With my setup, which is quite different then yours, I just use a JC A419 to monitor my storage temp. If it fall below a set point then the oil boiler kicks on for heat calls.
> 
> ...


yes cold start ...the people who sold it to me could only answer how much $$ they wanted...


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## iceguy4 (Dec 1, 2012)

ozzie88 said:


> Most oil boilers come on when there temp. goes down to certian temp. An oil boiler just sitting there looses heat by the air flow going threw them all the time which will cool them off alot. by alowing air to go threw the pump inlet and out the flue,which cools boiler, I PUT A FLUE ELE. control flap which comes on and off with the pump, on my boiler and it keeps all heat in boiler, stops the air flow cooling it, and I must say it cut down the usage ALOT,


My boiler (OIL) has a FIELD CONTROL oil vent damper...  what is a ELE?


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## kopeck (Dec 1, 2012)

iceguy4 said:


> yes cold start ...the people who sold it to me could only answer how much $$ they wanted...


 

Hmm, then it should only fire when there is a call for heat.

If you truly wanted to only use your oil boiler as backup (ie freeze protection) use something some sort of thermostatic switch (again, similar to an A419) and put that inline on the wire that fires the boiler and set it to 50 degrees or something like that.

If the air gets below 50 then it would allow your oil boiler to fire.  Your thermostats and the boiler would be out of sync BUT it would keep your house from freezing.

I don't know if that's a great idea but it's an idea...

Maybe there's something you could tie a relay into on your pellet boiler?

Still seems (to me) like there would be something on the boiler but I've never played with one so I can't say for sure.

K


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## iceguy4 (Dec 1, 2012)

harttj said:


> I installed a strap on aqua stat. Temp in the boiler falls below 140 and propane kicks in.


 Strap?
 my existing aquastat will try to fire boiler @ 160 degrees. I have cast iron radiators and use a set back thermostat. sometimes my return water is quite cold so my oil boiler kicks on(honeywell  L7224/L7248) will not let me lower my low limit  160 degrees or lower my high limit 180.  If I could lower to 140  (Low Limit)  I think it would help.  should I install a new one?


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## ozzie88 (Dec 1, 2012)

iceguy4 said:


> My boiler (OIL) has a FIELD CONTROL oil vent damper... what is a ELE?


 this electric works off controls and comes on and off with pump.opens and closes flue, It sits right on top of stove on ring to keep all heat in when not in use, most are cast iron one i got is stainless,it saves alot of heat.  Most high efficentrys have them on already with unit and burn outside air anyways.


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## iceguy4 (Dec 1, 2012)

ozzie88 said:


> this electric works off controls and comes on and off with pump.opens and closes flue, It sits right on top of stove on ring to keep all heat in when not in use, most are cast iron one i got is stainless,it saves alot of heat. Most high efficentrys have them on already with unit and burn outside air anyways.


my field control vent damper is also stainless. it has "feathers" (Stainless)where it comes in contact with the vent pipe. I presume it is to survive the harsh enviroment that an oil burner presents.


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## iceguy4 (Dec 1, 2012)

ozzie88 said:


> www.hearth.com › ... › The Boiler Room - Wood Boilers and Furnaces Check this site out explanes more


I saw nothing that relates to my situation...did I miss something there?


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## iceguy4 (Dec 1, 2012)

iceguy4 said:


> I saw nothing that relates to my situation...did I miss something there?


...
Also I'm up to 2.25 tons in basement...oink


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## iceguy4 (Dec 1, 2012)

kopeck said:


> Hmm, then it should only fire when there is a call for heat.
> 
> If you truly wanted to only use your oil boiler as backup (ie freeze protection) use something some sort of thermostatic switch (again, similar to an A419) and put that inline on the wire that fires the boiler and set it to 50 degrees or something like that.
> 
> ...


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## iceguy4 (Dec 1, 2012)

Yes it will only come on if ther is a call for heat. since i have cast iron radiators my temp can go to 125 + - and they still will warm house ..unlike base board. It just seems like a waste to fire my boiler (oil) when the pellet will catch up on its own. As you know the PB 105 can take a few min to get its self "ripping" and any residual heat in it will start heating the zone that is calling for heat. GEEZ this is getting frustrating looking for an answer. I'm sure someone has solved this. I was thinking maybe a snap switch on the pellet boilers vent pipe but that seems like a "cob job"


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## KenLockett (Dec 1, 2012)

iceguy4 said:


> Yes it will only come on if ther is a call for heat. since i have cast iron radiators my temp can go to 125 + - and they still will warm house ..unlike base board. It just seems like a waste to fire my boiler (oil) when the pellet will catch up on its own. As you know the PB 105 can take a few min to get its self "ripping" and any residual heat in it will start heating the zone that is calling for heat. GEEZ this is getting frustrating looking for an answer. I'm sure someone has solved this. I was thinking maybe a snap switch on the pellet boilers vent pipe but that seems like a "cob job"


 
Iceguy4,

My Tarm Solo Plus 40 Down Draft gassifier is not plumbed in series with my oil boiler as I chose to plumb it in parallel as not to have to heat the capacity of the oil boiler reservoir. However, I have an aquastat that monitors the wood boiler temp. The NC contact from the aquatstat is wired in series with the oil burner ignition circuit to provide an interlock. The contact opens when wood boiler temp goes above 160 DegF with approximately a 10 DegF deadband thus preventing the oil boiler from firing. If I let the wood boiler combust out the oil boiler will fire to take up the slack. All in all almost seamless operation between the wood and oil boilers. Remember that the relay and  thermostat circuits for the oil boiler system had not changed.  The only addition to the original control circuit was the addition of the interlock contact.  My only complaint is that I wish I had bought an aquastat that had an adjustable deadband. I have an electrical schematic that I can send if you'd like via private message. Let me know if this helps and/or if you'd like a copy of the schematic.

Ken


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## Fred61 (Dec 2, 2012)

Having a cold start fossil boiler is an advantage in this situation. Yor don't need to switch the power side of the boiler at all. You just need to switch the thermostat. The boiler will not operate unless the contacts in the aquastat are made.
I am using a JC 419 that is sensing my storage temperature and have it set to activate when the tank temperature drops to a certain temperature, say 120 degrees. When that happens, it activates two zone valves which re-direct the flow and makes the thermostat connection. As soon as the thermostat connection is made the oil boiler fires. In other words, just switch one leg of the thermostat wire and you're good to go. Fossil boiler will not fire unless thermostat is calling.


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## iceguy4 (Dec 2, 2012)

KenLockett said:


> Iceguy4,
> 
> My Tarm Solo Plus 40 Down Draft gassifier is not plumbed in series with my oil boiler as I chose to plumb it in parallel as not to have to heat the capacity of the oil boiler reservoir. However, I have an aquastat that monitors the wood boiler temp. The NC contact from the aquatstat is wired in series with the oil burner ignition circuit to provide an interlock. The contact opens when wood boiler temp goes above 160 DegF with approximately a 10 DegF deadband thus preventing the oil boiler from firing. If I let the wood boiler combust out the oil boiler will fire to take up the slack. All in all almost seamless operation between the wood and oil boilers. Remember that the relay and thermostat circuits for the oil boiler system had not changed. The only addition to the original control circuit was the addition of the interlock contact. My only complaint is that I wish I had bought an aquastat that had an adjustable deadband. I have an electrical schematic that I can send if you'd like via private message. Let me know if this helps and/or if you'd like a copy of the schematic.
> 
> ...


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## maple1 (Dec 2, 2012)

iceguy4 said:


> Strap?
> my existing aquastat will try to fire boiler @ 160 degrees. I have cast iron radiators and use a set back thermostat. sometimes my return water is quite cold so my oil boiler kicks on(honeywell L7224/L7248) will not let me lower my low limit 160 degrees or lower my high limit 180. If I could lower to 140 (Low Limit) I think it would help. should I install a new one?


 
A 'strap on' aquastat is one that does not need to be installed in a well. You mount the aquastat where convenient, and 'strap on' (surface mount) the sensor to where it will sense the heat effectively (like a supply pipe, or the top of a storage tank). Very easy install compared to a well aquastat especially when retrofitting.

Are you sure you can't lower the lower limit of your aquastat?

You could add on a strap on aquastat in your oil boiler firing circuit - when the sensor senses a temp somewhere in your system that is less than what the PB would maintain if it was firing, the stat would close and let the electricity through to fire the oil burner. That would be a simple 'break on rise' aquastat - they are not that expensive. Or, as mentioned, you could try the room air temp approach & use a separate thermostat to fire the oil if the air temp gets too low - but, how is your DHW heated?


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## iceguy4 (Dec 2, 2012)

Fred61 said:


> Having a cold start fossil boiler is an advantage in this situation. Yor don't need to switch the power side of the boiler at all. You just need to switch the thermostat. The boiler will not operate unless the contacts in the aquastat are made.
> I am using a JC 419 that is sensing my storage temperature and have it set to activate when the tank temperature drops to a certain temperature, say 120 degrees. When that happens, it activates two zone valves which re-direct the flow and makes the thermostat connection. As soon as the thermostat connection is made the oil boiler fires. In other words, just switch one leg of the thermostat wire and you're good to go. Fossil boiler will not fire unless thermostat is calling.


 

fred,
My oil boiler aquastat is a honeywell L7224/L7248 and only the High limit is adjustable   180 and up...lower limit is set @ 160 and I havent been able to adjust (its aprox 4 years old)  If I could lower it to say 130 or so it would fix my problem.   also I have SR 506 Taco controller wired to 6 seprate  setback stats so are you saying I need 6 more stats?  Also my oil boiler makes so much noise that its nice not to hear it (Its much less noisy with a .75 nozzle...that SOB would fire after a pre-purge with a boom..woosh with a .85..)   I also have an  intellidyne HW+ on it for the last few years (I like it and feels it saves me $$ by holding off burner to as low as 128 degrees that I have observed...but thats another thread.  I have also moved its sensor to the outlet of the pellet boiler as to sence its heat sooner) 
   Now next year this issue will most likely become "moot point" as this system will have to heat yet another building as well as this building and I expect I will need the oil boiler to keep both warm on the coldest days....but I'm like a "dog with a bone"  and will NOT stop till I find a way to accomplish keeping my oil from firing unless my pellet boiler is out.   I have cast iron radiators (sand blasted and powder coated...man they are pretty) so lower temp water to them is less significant then base board so my pellet starting up from a no fire condition will have less of an affect then usual.


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## iceguy4 (Dec 2, 2012)

maple1 said:


> A 'strap on' aquastat is one that does not need to be installed in a well. You mount the aquastat where convenient, and 'strap on' (surface mount) the sensor to where it will sense the heat effectively (like a supply pipe, or the top of a storage tank). Very easy install compared to a well aquastat especially when retrofitting.
> 
> Are you sure you can't lower the lower limit of your aquastat?
> 
> You could add on a strap on aquastat in your oil boiler firing circuit - when the sensor senses a temp somewhere in your system that is less than what the PB would maintain if it was firing, the stat would close and let the electricity through to fire the oil burner. That would be a simple 'break on rise' aquastat - they are not that expensive. Or, as mentioned, you could try the room air temp approach & use a separate thermostat to fire the oil if the air temp gets too low - but, how is your DHW heated?


 

first off let me thank you for taking time....  Any place in my system I place such a device will kill my oil boiler since my boiler will heat my pellet boiler too as its series...I have no storage as of yet..   What woul I do...place such a device in the line between my Taco sr506 and aquastat in the TT circut by breaking one of those lines?   I'm concidering mounting such a device on the pellet boilers chimney...   Also I have an indirect HW heater on zone 6 as it can be set up as priority (i dont have it set to on)   right now I have the oil burner unplugged but as the temp drops outside I will become less confortable with that arrangement...and besides it skews my intellidyne HW+   run time values that I use for oil consumtion figures(67 hours so far this season and that was with an electric hot water heater that I use in the summer...  67h X .89 gal/hr(flow rate @ 140 psi = gallons used) )


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## Fred61 (Dec 2, 2012)

iceguy4 said:


> fred,
> My oil boiler aquastat is a honeywell L7224/L7248 and only the High limit is adjustable 180 and up...lower limit is set @ 160 and I havent been able to adjust (its aprox 4 years old) If I could lower it to say 130 or so it would fix my problem. also I have SR 506 Taco controller wired to 6 seprate setback stats so are you saying I need 6 more stats? Also my oil boiler makes so much noise that its nice not to hear it (Its much less noisy with a .75 nozzle...that SOB would fire after a pre-purge with a boom..woosh with a .85..) I also have an intellidyne HW+ on it for the last few years (I like it and feels it saves me $$ by holding off burner to as low as 128 degrees that I have observed...but thats another thread. I have also moved its sensor to the outlet of the pellet boiler as to sence its heat sooner)
> Now next year this issue will most likely become "moot point" as this system will have to heat yet another building as well as this building and I expect I will need the oil boiler to keep both warm on the coldest days....but I'm like a "dog with a bone"  and will NOT stop till I find a way to accomplish keeping my oil from firing unless my pellet boiler is out. I have cast iron radiators (sand blasted and powder coated...man they are pretty) so lower temp water to them is less significant then base board so my pellet starting up from a no fire condition will have less of an affect then usual.


 
No you don't need any more stats. When I made my statement I had overlooked the fact that you are using them so what I said wouldn't work for you but now I'm confused. If your oil boiler is unplugged, where is the power coming from to power your controller?


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## iceguy4 (Dec 2, 2012)

my burner has a plug at the burner so you can service it...IE swing the front open to clean (utica tri-fire oil boiler) 












9


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## iceguy4 (Dec 2, 2012)

my oil boiler has no idea there is a pellet boiler in the mix...I tied into the return lines so all it knows is the return water is hotter..


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## Fred61 (Dec 2, 2012)

iceguy4 said:


> my burner has a plug at the burner so you can service it...IE swing the front open to clean (utica tri-fire oil boiler)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Then just add an aquastat like an a419 and break that circuit. You'll also need a relay to handle the load.


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## ozzie88 (Dec 2, 2012)

http://nepacrossroads.com/about10917.html    This should show a photo of what I mean to add to flue keep heat it,I hope?


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## ozzie88 (Dec 2, 2012)

http://nepacrossroads.com/about10917.html    This should show a photo of what I mean to add to flue keep heat it,I hope?


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## iceguy4 (Dec 2, 2012)

ozzie88 said:


> http://nepacrossroads.com/about10917.html This should show a photo of what I mean to add to flue keep heat it,I hope?


 
Hey ozzy
I have a vent damper and have for 4 years know. please don't take this wrong cuz I appreciate ANY help ...IMHO FIELD CONTROLS oil vent damper    http://www.fieldcontrols.com/ovd.php    Is a better choice.  Let me splane...If you look at the picture you can clearly see the stainless "feathers" on its edges. these work two ways...first they seal the vent quite nicely...thus eliminating leakage. More importantly they clean as well as will go over any crap on the pipe walls left there by oil combustion, and believe me there WILL be crap. Also my unit is ALL stainless.  Are you aware  oil vent dampers (reliable) were not available for an oil application? Again please dont take this wrong and if you notice I "liked"   your post
Iceguy  AKA  Tony 20 Sharks


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## iceguy4 (Dec 2, 2012)

Fred61 said:


> Then just add an aquastat like an a419 and break that circuit. You'll also need a relay to handle the load.


 



fred,

where would you have me install that aquastat?   every place on my system will become hot when the oil boiler kicks on...


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## ozzie88 (Dec 2, 2012)

iceguy4 said:


> Hey ozzy
> I have a vent damper and have for 4 years know. please don't take this wrong cuz I appreciate ANY help ...IMHO FIELD CONTROLS oil vent damper http://www.fieldcontrols.com/ovd.php Is a better choice. Let me splane...If you look at the picture you can clearly see the stainless "feathers" on its edges. these work two ways...first they seal the vent quite nicely...thus eliminating leakage. More importantly they clean as well as will go over any crap on the pipe walls left there by oil combustion, and believe me there WILL be crap. Also my unit is ALL stainless. Are you aware oil vent dampers (reliable) were not available for an oil application? Again please dont take this wrong and if you notice I "liked" your post
> Iceguy AKA Tony 20 Sharks


 Info-info cant get enough info,,  somethings you have to keep talking about till somebody hits it on the head and fix the problem, This is a good site with lots of people and ideas. Good luck I will keep checking this I too am baffled with your problem,  People here have helped me in the past,


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## KenLockett (Dec 2, 2012)

Ice,

Yes I live near Albany.  I live east of Troy in the town of Petersburgh.  If you'd like to come out please just private message me and we can setup a visit.  Attached is a picture of the schematic.  I can email you the schematic in .pdf format if you private message me.

Ken


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## Fred61 (Dec 2, 2012)

iceguy4 said:


> fred,
> 
> where would you have me install that aquastat? every place on my system will become hot when the oil boiler kicks on...


 
You'll need to set your oil boiler launch temp lower than the PB and then use a locking relay that will activate when PB temperature drops below that point and then you would manually release oil boiler when you refire the PB.


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## mikefrommaine (Dec 2, 2012)

iceguy4 said:


> fred,
> 
> where would you have me install that aquastat?   every place on my system will become hot when the oil boiler kicks on...


Since its plumbed in series an aquastat wouldn't work. I'd just put a  new simple thermostat  in the main living area and set it to 5-6 degrees lower than the the temp you keep the house. Run a pair of thermostat wires from the thermostat to the tt  connections on the oil burner primary control.(it should have a jumper that you will need to remove)

That way when the pellet boiler is providing heat the new thermostat will be satisfied and tt connection will be open preventing the oil burner from firing. If the house cools to the setpoint the thermostat will close the connection and allow the oil burner to fire.


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## TheMightyMoe (Dec 2, 2012)

Due to your plumbing being serial either run a wireless back up thermostat just for the oil boiler.

Or add a delay start relay to boiler.

Edited my post for clarity

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/SSAC-Multi-Function-Timer-5JJ47?Pid=search

Wire this between oil boiler / controller / zone valve / thermostat ((Not sure of your setup))

Set it for a set amount minutes. If pellet boiler does not meet demand of thermostats in set time, oil boiler will kick on, until all demands for heat are satisfied.

*Example*
Timer set for 30 minutes

Oil boiler will not run, unless the call for heat hasn't ended after 30 minutes, then the oil boiler will run till call for heat ended. 

You may run into problems with multiple zones, but you could set the relay to 60 or 90 minutes. Really depends on how long your call heats are / # of zones / how much time your willing to go without heat.

Seems like the cheapest option to me, if its doable.


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## iceguy4 (Dec 2, 2012)

Thanks guys.   what do you think of this Idea...change out my aquastat to a more adjustable one with an ajustment on the lower limit of say 110 degrees. I have allready staggered my setbacks so they dont all hit at the same time.  keep my high limit at 180.  I have seen temps drop into the 115 range and I have the pellet boiler set at 170 LL and 185 HL ...BUT i just finished the outside temp so these values will change. A side note...for the first time in 2 years I have gone back to indirect water heater as even during the heating season I'll bet my 40 gallon electric HW heater was cheaper then oil.  Man I just got out of the shower (3 valves ...one for regular head spray with wand too, one for body sprays and one for rain maker...all at different temps)   A true "tim the tool man" shower   LOL


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## TCaldwell (Dec 2, 2012)

Ice, have you followed all the thermostat wires, I had one that a electrician wired to the oil boiler switch, so whenever that zone called the oil bolier would kick on, regardless of water temp in my series piped wood boiler. Once I hooked that thermostat to the taco zone conntrol box, no more oil boiler.


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## TheMightyMoe (Dec 2, 2012)

Your pellet low limit seems high.

Also how long are your returns staying at 115*? I know the the PB wants 140* return water if possible, and it sounds like your home takes a while to heat up after you setback.


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## iceguy4 (Dec 2, 2012)

TCaldwell said:


> Ice, have you followed all the thermostat wires, I had one that a electrician wired to the oil boiler switch, so whenever that zone called the oil bolier would kick on, regardless of water temp in my series piped wood boiler. Once I hooked that thermostat to the taco zone conntrol box, no more oil boiler.


I'm not understandind this...please explain better or pm me and ill call you. I was just down stairs (my wife said i might as well stay there...LOL) this is what I got a 6 zone Taco sr506 controller to handle the zone valves. from the XX termonals on that its wired to the TT termonals on my aquastat to tell the aquastat that there is a call for heat from one of the 6 zones. I disconnected one of the TT wires from the controller and wa -la... no oil boiler . this solves the problem of where I had the boiler disconnected (at the oil burner) this stopped the burner from fireing but my vent damper was open. I could just wire another thermostat to the TT termonals in my basement as a fail safe to prevent my pipes from freezing BUT this is not a seemless integration install. I'm thinking when I add the other building I will need the oil to help my pellet boiler on the coldest days (inlaw apartment and moms not gonna put up with a cold house). I think it all boils down to me needing a new aquastat that is more adjustable then the POS I have. No matter what I do it will not let me adjust the lower limit. Also that delay relay looks good too. Any ideas of what aquastat would hve the adjustability I'm looking for? would like it to be honeywell if possable Lower limit adjust from a lil over 100 to say 160 and high limit from 140 to 180 give or take. thoughts??


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## iceguy4 (Dec 2, 2012)

TheMightyMoe said:


> Your pellet low limit seems high.
> 
> Also how long are your returns staying at 115*? I know the the PB wants 140* return water if possible, and it sounds like your home takes a while to heat up after you setback.


Not very long. I have cast iron radiators and have used deep setbacks (50 degrees when I was strictly on oil) I have changed all setbacks to 60 degrees and spent some time synchronizing the clocks in them and staggering the times so they all dont come online at once.  Sounds easy but it was time consuming


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## TheMightyMoe (Dec 2, 2012)

Thats good. Too bad you are not plumbed P&S or with Thermostatic bypass valve, then you run all the setbacks at the same time, and get a nice clean long cycle. Although having staggered setbacks can accomplish the near the same thing.


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## iceguy4 (Dec 2, 2012)

TheMightyMoe said:


> Thats good. Too bad you are not plumbed P&S or with Thermostatic bypass valve, then you run all the setbacks at the same time, and get a nice clean long cycle. Although having staggered setbacks can accomplish the near the same thing.


 


 WHOA... slow down ...plumbed P&S???   thermostatic bypass???


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## TheMightyMoe (Dec 3, 2012)

Primary/Secondary = Way to plumb everything instead of serial (It can be done serial) which gives the boiler protection from low return temperatures.

Thermostatic bypass = Another form of boiler protection - Not as good as P&S.


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## Fred61 (Dec 4, 2012)

iceguy4 said:


> fred,
> 
> where would you have me install that aquastat? every place on my system will become hot when the oil boiler kicks on...


Hey Ice,
I did some scratching on a napkin and thought about the following. Tell me where I'm going wrong.
I don't exactly know how you have your system plumbed. but I assume the supply from the PB goes to the return of the OB then OB supplies the zones and return is to the PB.
Try this on: How about mounting an aquastat on the PB output and a 3 way on the return to the PB that will short circuit the PB when OB is powered up. Three way will divert the return water to PB supply so no flow will go through the PB until the new aquastat is satisfied (PB water temp back into set range).

ie. PB cools > aquastat powers OB and switches three way > three way diverts water to output of PB. Alt. PB warms > aquastat activates > opens power to OB and activates three way to allow flow through PB. You'll probably need a swing check downstream from the aquastat and upstream from the bypass connection.


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## iceguy4 (Dec 5, 2012)

Fred61 said:


> Hey Ice,
> I did some scratching on a napkin and thought about the following. Tell me where I'm going wrong.
> I don't exactly know how you have your system plumbed. but I assume the supply from the PB goes to the return of the OB then OB supplies the zones and return is to the PB.
> Try this on: How about mounting an aquastat on the PB output and a 3 way on the return to the PB that will short circuit the PB when OB is powered up. Three way will divert the return water to PB supply so no flow will go through the PB until the new aquastat is satisfied (PB water temp back into set range).
> ...


 
Fred,
 How I plumbed it in... 1 foot before my old return went into the bottom of my boiler, I  "T'd" in with my hot line from my PB105. directly above I placed a ball valve then above that I installed another "T" for the return for the PB105....so its a "series" set up .  IE my hot water from my pellet boiler must go through my oil boiler befor going to the zones.
I dont understand completely... seems like a complex arrangement and my system is going to have to be plumbed like it is till spring at this point.  thank you so much for thinking about my situation    read below what I'm going to try tonite.


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## iceguy4 (Dec 5, 2012)

since I dont have the money for another aquastat at the moment I just lowered the "heat low limit" on the intellidyne hw+(wonderfull device that I installed 3 years ago on my oil boiler) to 91 degrees.  if the temp drops slowly it will hold off oil boiler from firing to that temp.  if the temp drops too fast it will let the boiler fire at a much higher temp.  I think if I install a delay relay I will get the results I'm looking for.   It was set at 120 degrees before but I never saw it go below 128 degrees.  It breaks my heart when I hear the oil kick in...


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## Fred61 (Dec 5, 2012)

My quick napkin design would add a Johnson Controls a419 plus a three way valve plus a tee and swing check valve. About $250.00. Simple design. not complicated at all.


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## steam man (Dec 5, 2012)

I am just putting a wood boiler this month with storage. I am leaning towards just using a flow switch. If the wood boiler is citrculating hot water it will inhibit the oil burner. My problem with strap on aquastats is the delay in switching due to just sensing pipe temp and not any actual flow.


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## iceguy4 (Dec 6, 2012)

steam man said:


> I am just putting a wood boiler this month with storage. I am leaning towards just using a flow switch. If the wood boiler is citrculating hot water it will inhibit the oil burner. My problem with strap on aquastats is the delay in switching due to just sensing pipe temp and not any actual flow.


 
steam
flow switch will not work in a "series" plumbed system as there is flow through each boiler no mater what boiler is firing.  am I missing something here?  My problem is ...I'm "tighter then bark on a tree" so adding yet another circulator to a system with 6 curculators makes my teeth hurt...and besides heating my oil boiler costs me next to nothing as I have a flue damper and any heat lost there is still in my building.


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## iceguy4 (Dec 6, 2012)

my last "cure" did not work... (temp drops so fast that the intellidyne only held off  oil boiler for 2 degrees {160 to 158} when recovering from a "set back"...cast iron radiators) next "stab" will be adding a delay in the TT circut to delay the fireing of the oil burner till the pellet burner "ramps up"  I also raised my PB low limit up to 170 in an effort to satisfy the economizer.  also I feel buying another aquastat will satisfy me for this year, next year when I add the other building it will become un-necessary.  also the delay will most likely become obsolete next year  IMHO because I'm quite sure when its real cold both boilers will have to work together to satisfy the demand. without doing a heat loss on both buildings, I'm just guessing.  Heck with as many " known unknowns" (i loved that speech) as I have (old building ...cob jober previous owner  ect) I feel doing a heat loss will be a waist of time.   "solar city" will be here to do a free energy audit dec 27 so that will be more info then I have now.   my old boiler seemed to be spot on and I just added 105,000 to 113,000 btu's so I should be ok.


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## Fred61 (Dec 6, 2012)

iceguy4 said:


> steam
> flow switch will not work in a "series" plumbed system as there is flow through each boiler no mater what boiler is firing. am I missing something here? My problem is ...I'm "tighter then bark on a tree" so adding yet another circulator to a system with 6 curculators makes my teeth hurt...and besides heating my oil boiler costs me next to nothing as I have a flue damper and any heat lost there is still in my building.


 How do you stop loosing heat when the oil boiler is operating and water is circulating through the PB? Do you also have a damper on that unit?


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## steam man (Dec 6, 2012)

I have to rethink what your original problem is. If all your water circulates through both boilers then you will have a heat loss no matter what. I was thinking you had piped up so the wood boiler flows through the oil boiler but not the other way. I have somewhat of a problem retrofitting all my piping right now so my plan is to just make the wood boiler/storage act as a zone that circulates heat back through my oil boiler/existing piping. The flow switch would just inhibit the oil burner whenever the wood boiler supplies heat. Also, my oil boiler is setup as a cold start so there is no minimum to maintain. It also has a reillo burner that has a damper that closes and a power vent for an exhaust, therefore the chimney effect is minimal. There is nothing wrong with keeping an oil boiler warm as it keeps other issues from coming up such as corrosion. However, if your oil boiler is also circulating through your wood boiler you are wasting heat. I would rethink your piping scheme. You could contemplate adding a 3 way valve to bypass the wood boiler if it is not operating though this adds a another level of expense/complexity. I like the "keep it simple" idea.


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## iceguy4 (Dec 6, 2012)

Fred61 said:


> How do you stop loosing heat when the oil boiler is operating and water is circulating through the PB? Do you also have a damper on that unit?


 
Its a power vent ...meaning hot gasses have to go to the bottom of the boiler before going up. (I just went outside to check but its running). I'm thinking it will not be drafting heat out (I could be wrong ...I'll check)   Besides  My pellet boiler is now my primary heat so it will always be running.  if I go away I can flip 3 ball valves and isolate it.


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## iceguy4 (Dec 6, 2012)

steam man said:


> I have to rethink what your original problem is. If all your water circulates through both boilers then you will have a heat loss no matter what. I was thinking you had piped up so the wood boiler flows through the oil boiler but not the other way. I have somewhat of a problem retrofitting all my piping right now so my plan is to just make the wood boiler/storage act as a zone that circulates heat back through my oil boiler/existing piping. The flow switch would just inhibit the oil burner whenever the wood boiler supplies heat. Also, my oil boiler is setup as a cold start so there is no minimum to maintain. It also has a reillo burner that has a damper that closes and a power vent for an exhaust, therefore the chimney effect is minimal. There is nothing wrong with keeping an oil boiler warm as it keeps other issues from coming up such as corrosion. However, if your oil boiler is also circulating through your wood boiler you are wasting heat. I would rethink your piping scheme. You could contemplate adding a 3 way valve to bypass the wood boiler if it is not operating though this adds a another level of expense/complexity. I like the "keep it simple" idea.


 


I respectfully disagree ...my Oil boiler is a cold start too.  if you look at the picture with the oil boiler chimney you can see the "T "... top connection to the pellet boiler with a ball valve to turn it off (this picture was taken before I even had the PB ...I pre plumbed it) this will serve as the cold return from the zones and goes to the return on the PB (bottom of the PB)   Directly below  is another ball valve that I close to force the water to the PB. and belowe that is another "T" with a third valve to completely isolate the PB if I choose.   this connection comes from the hot out ...top of the PB. this then goes into my oil boiler and up to my zone pumps.  You will also notice the field controls "oil vent damper" this is a very good
	

		
			
		

		
	



	

		
			
		

		
	
 damper and lets NO heat go up the oil chimney.  Any heat lost from the oil boiler is in my basement and not lost.


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## iceguy4 (Dec 6, 2012)

I didnt realize you could see arrows on the galvinized pipe showing the direction the water flows. the first picture shows 6 zone pumps  ...If I chose to run a parellel piping system it would have  become necesssary to run yet another pump or resort to valving to get them to work together ...and i need them to work together to get 200,000 BTU's I will need next winter to heat an out building too. You will also notice  the intellidyne hw+ model 3250.. A well made unit that guarintees st the least a 10% reduction or your money back.  you can pick them up on e-bay for a "song"  it also keeps track of burner run time too for fuel caculations ...dont for get to factor in fuel pressure as nozzles are rated at 100psi and most new burners run at higher pressures.   my .75 nozzel flows .89 gal/hr @ 140 psi.


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## steam man (Dec 6, 2012)

iceguy4 said:


> View attachment 84019
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I am not sure what we are disagreeing about but I know my oil boiler will not be circulating through my wood boiler.


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## iceguy4 (Dec 6, 2012)

steam man said:


> If all your water circulates through both boilers then you will have a heat loss no matter what........................ However, if your oil boiler is also circulating through your wood boiler you are wasting heat. I would rethink your piping scheme. .


 



these statements are where we disagree . My primary heat is now my pellet boiler so there is no loss in my pellet boiler caused by my piping scheme there. My oil boiler has a top quality vent damper and NO heat is lost up the chimney ( I have verifyed this with a laser temperature sensor) and any losses in the boiler itself is in my basement...no loss there either . Also if I go away I can make my oil the primary heat and isolate the pellet boiler with manual ball valves. I thought this out and my piping is exactly as it should be. my oil boiler is aprox 120,000 btu's...my pellet boiler is aprox 113,000 btu's and when I need it I can apply over 200,000 btu's to my heat load with no complicated valving...truly a KISS(Keep It Simple Silly) situation I have yet to verify but I'll bet my losses out my pellet chimney after the blower shuts down are minimal. If I went with a parallel plumbed system It would need yet another pump and some complicated valving to get both boilers to "play well together"


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## The Jesse Way (Dec 6, 2012)

iceguy4 said:


> Pb 105 installed...up and running  Changed all my set back thermostats (up from 50 degrees) and now my wife is very happy(house @ 70+ degrees) My oil still come on at times but in 24 hours it has only run 30 min (hour meter). would like to nip that in the butt. My boiler is plumbed in series and no one here seems to know how to stop my oil burner from comming on . I only want my oil to come on in an emergency. Can anyone help?


 
THE ANSWER

Your boiler has a built-in control circuit that identifies the pressure in your boiler.  If there's a lack of pressure, the unit has been set for generic, easy-to-use operation. 

You need someone who knows how to wire control circuits and is familiarized with electricity to revamp your system.

Inspect your wiring.  Hopefully the unit has a wiring diagram in the instruction manual, online, or through their technical support/engineering department.  I bet you'll find that there's a little circuit that goes from normally open contacts to closed when a pressure meter shows a pressure at or below 110 psi, or whatever the psi settings are for the boiler.  

That meter is in your boiler.  Locate the device that recognizes your pressure in the boiler/system.  Now the boiler might have multiple devices to monitor pressure, independently triggering an event based on JUST low pressure, and another one triggering an event based on JUST high temperature.  Or (correct me if I'm wrong) it recognizes what the pressure is, then that signal gets sent to the control box, where the events are triggered in the control box.  
If there are independent pressure sensors dedicated to high and low pressure, then find which one just does low pressure.  Stopping that circuit will solve your problem.  I'd suggest finding a way to stop the circuit where you can put it back together, though.  So don't do permanent, irreversible damage to your system.  

If the unit recognizes both high and low pressure, and just sends the PSI reading to the control box, what I would then suggest is to set up a relay to a secondary thermostat with the lowest degree setting you can find.  This would most likely be an electronic thermostat, which is awesome.  I think there are wireless ones, where you get a box with the thermostat that will connect into your boiler.  This will, in essence, be the switch that will ALLOW your normal boiler circuitry to trigger.  What it's going to trigger is a relay, which will have a couple of wires going to the thermostat, and will INTERRUPT the normal hot lead going into the system.  You should be able to interrupt the circuit AFTER your emergency shut off switch. 

You can also set up your control circuit to have a safeguard against turning off the system completely when the blower is on and the unit is hot, i.e. the firing process.  Run a DoDE (or delay on de-energize) timer on the circuit, and have the timer, when activated, disconnect your primary thermostat's circuit.  Make sure to time how long it takes for your boiler to re-pressurize (using a worst-case scenario of starting from 0.  This requires turning your system off until there is no pressure, turning the system off, and timing how long it takes to go through the process of getting up to pressure.)  

Put it all in pretty boxes, get yourself a voltage transformer, run some romex or MC to it from the last junction box before your boiler, and before the controls I'm talking about.  And before your emergency shut off switch.  Then your control system will be powered regardless of power state of the boiler, with the exception of the breaker or main breaker tripping in your panel.  Again, you want a dedicated breaker for this system, anyways...don't want any hair dryers shutting off your pellet unit when it's mid-fire.  

Or you can run a switch to the top of your stairs and turn the unit on and off.  Just don't turn it off when it's in the middle of combustion. 
I know it's a really long post, and I apologize.


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## The Jesse Way (Dec 6, 2012)

iceguy4 said:


> these statements are where we disagree . My primary heat is now my pellet boiler so there is no loss in my pellet boiler caused by my piping scheme there. My oil boiler has a top quality vent damper and NO heat is lost up the chimney ( I have verifyed this with a laser temperature sensor) and any losses in the boiler itself is in my basement...no loss there either . Also if I go away I can make my oil the primary heat and isolate the pellet boiler with manual ball valves. I thought this out and my piping is exactly as it should be. my oil boiler is aprox 120,000 btu's...my pellet boiler is aprox 113,000 btu's and when I need it I can apply over 200,000 btu's to my heat load with no complicated valving...truly a KISS(Keep It Simple Silly) situation I have yet to verify but I'll bet my losses out my pellet chimney after the blower shuts down are minimal. If I went with a parallel plumbed system It would need yet another pump and some complicated valving to get both boilers to "play well together"


 


You can control outgoing pressure to be synchronized between the boilers in a parallel system.  The drag on the movement of the system, and the amount of drag on your circulator pump is increased by having 2 systems laid out in series.  Not to mention heating up the major heat sink that could be a colder boiler.  In theory you're right about the heat staying in your basement.  But the amount of absorption to get a 2nd, colder boiler up to the temp of the water is in the stupid-high range.  It's a heat sink, when not powered up.


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## iceguy4 (Dec 7, 2012)

The Jesse Way said:


> THE ANSWER
> 
> Your boiler has a built-in control circuit that identifies the pressure in your boiler. If there's a lack of pressure, the unit has been set for generic, easy-to-use operation.
> 
> ...


 










what boiler are we talking about  Oil or pellet.  are you thinking I have a steam boiler?  My pressure is under 30 psi in my hot water boilers and regulated by a  regulator on the make up water feed and expansion tanks..


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## steam man (Dec 7, 2012)

iceguy4 said:


> these statements are where we disagree . My primary heat is now my pellet boiler so there is no loss in my pellet boiler caused by my piping scheme there. My oil boiler has a top quality vent damper and NO heat is lost up the chimney ( I have verifyed this with a laser temperature sensor) and any losses in the boiler itself is in my basement...no loss there either . Also if I go away I can make my oil the primary heat and isolate the pellet boiler with manual ball valves. I thought this out and my piping is exactly as it should be. my oil boiler is aprox 120,000 btu's...my pellet boiler is aprox 113,000 btu's and when I need it I can apply over 200,000 btu's to my heat load with no complicated valving...truly a KISS(Keep It Simple Silly) situation I have yet to verify but I'll bet my losses out my pellet chimney after the blower shuts down are minimal. If I went with a parallel plumbed system It would need yet another pump and some complicated valving to get both boilers to "play well together"


 
My defination of heat loss is heat going anywhere I don't intend it to go. If your basement is in your heating envelope I agree heat loss is technically minimal. However, a long time ago I devised a scheme when playing with a plc to prove my wood boiler was providing a postive heat gain to shutdown the oil boiler in a situation like this though I never really tried it. I would think a sensor on the inlet and outlet of the boiler and a differential switch/controller would do that.


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## iceguy4 (Dec 8, 2012)

Hey...,To everone who helped me with this issue...I want to send out a special thanks after a week with my new PB105 my oil has only kicked in for less then an hour (combined time)   Based on the fact that next year when I double my square feet of heating space(the reason for my purchase) and my oil will HAVE to cycle with the pellet boiler...I guess I can live with less then an hour a week.... And besides spending money on an aquastat or the like ...for a one year fix IMHO falls into the catagory of..."having more dollars then sense"...So at this point I may fiddle with a delay relay in the TT circuit  ...Low $$$ investment.  

     I plan to "like" all posts in an effort to say thank you and I wish you all a happy holiday .


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## katman (Dec 11, 2012)

Can't you just put a simple on/off switch on the power line to the oil boiler?


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## iceguy4 (Dec 11, 2012)

katman said:


> Can't you just put a simple on/off switch on the power line to the oil boiler?


   yes but if something happend i would feel better knowing my oil will kick in and "save the day"


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## KenLockett (Dec 12, 2012)

iceguy4 said:


> Hey...,To everone who helped me with this issue...I want to send out a special thanks after a week with my new PB105 my oil has only kicked in for less then an hour (combined time) Based on the fact that next year when I double my square feet of heating space(the reason for my purchase) and my oil will HAVE to cycle with the pellet boiler...I guess I can live with less then an hour a week.... And besides spending money on an aquastat or the like ...for a one year fix IMHO falls into the catagory of..."having more dollars then sense"...So at this point I may fiddle with a delay relay in the TT circuit ...Low $$$ investment.
> 
> I plan to "like" all posts in an effort to say thank you and I wish you all a happy holiday .


 

To tell you the truth iceguy4, it really is not all that bad that your oil boiler cycles on for one hour per week.  In this manner you actually exercise it.  My oil boiler had not come on for approximately 4 days and the oil began leaking around the tubing gasket at the burner.  As soon as I 'allowed' the oil boiler to fire and the oil unit warmed up the leaking stopped.  Just saying, occasionally running your oil boiler 'primary' is not all that bad IMHO.


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## luggal (Dec 12, 2012)

iceguy4 said:


> Hey...,To everone who helped me with this issue...I want to send out a special thanks after a week with my new PB105 my oil has only kicked in for less then an hour (combined time) Based on the fact that next year when I double my square feet of heating space(the reason for my purchase) and my oil will HAVE to cycle with the pellet boiler...I guess I can live with less then an hour a week.... And besides spending money on an aquastat or the like ...for a one year fix IMHO falls into the catagory of..."having more dollars then sense"...So at this point I may fiddle with a delay relay in the TT circuit ...Low $$$ investment.
> 
> I plan to "like" all posts in an effort to say thank you and I wish you all a happy holiday .


 
Sorry if I overlooked it, but how did you end up achieving this?

I just had a PB105 added in series with my current oil boiler and when it (oil) runs a small part of me dies.


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## iceguy4 (Dec 14, 2012)

luggal said:


> Sorry if I overlooked it, but how did you end up achieving this?
> 
> I just had a PB105 added in series with my current oil boiler and when it (oil) runs a small part of me dies.


 
 Typed a long answer computer ate it...sorry you will have to e-mail me or pm me or read the thread...sorry


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## __dan (Dec 14, 2012)

iceguy4 said:


> I'm not understandind this...please explain better or pm me and ill call you. I was just down stairs (my wife said i might as well stay there...LOL) this is what I got a 6 zone Taco sr506 controller to handle the zone valves. from the XX termonals on that its wired to the TT termonals on my aquastat to tell the aquastat that there is a call for heat from one of the 6 zones. I disconnected one of the TT wires from the controller and wa -la... no oil boiler . this solves the problem of where I had the boiler disconnected (at the oil burner) this stopped the burner from fireing but my vent damper was open. I could just wire another thermostat to the TT termonals in my basement as a fail safe to prevent my pipes from freezing BUT this is not a seemless integration install. I'm thinking when I add the other building I will need the oil to help my pellet boiler on the coldest days (inlaw apartment and moms not gonna put up with a cold house). I think it all boils down to me needing a new aquastat that is more adjustable then the POS I have. No matter what I do it will not let me adjust the lower limit. Also that delay relay looks good too. Any ideas of what aquastat would hve the adjustability I'm looking for? would like it to be honeywell if possable Lower limit adjust from a lil over 100 to say 160 and high limit from 140 to 180 give or take. thoughts??


 
Late to this thread, If it were me I would just turn the oil on and off manually (leaving it off for the winter).

I believe, No, on the lower limit boiler aquastat. The boiler needs return water of > 140 deg F to prevent flue gas condensation, which makes a mess. If you want lower boiler supply water temps for your CI rad loads, I would be looking for primary (boiler water) secondary (reset mixed injection) loops.

Your inquiry, you want to disable the oil boiler when in pellet heat mode. Yes, interrupt the two wire circuit between the Taco zone relay controller and the TT contacts on the boiler aquastat.

If it's wired correctly the Taco closes the TT circuit, however this signal goes to the Fields draft valve (opening it). The Fields draft valve must prove open with a limit switch and this proving limit is what closes the TT contacts at the boiler aquastat. If you interrupt TT at the boiler, this is after the draft valve and it is open. If you interrupt the TT circuit at the Taco relay controller, you should be able to also interrupt the opening of the draft valve.

Insert a new NC relay contacts into the TT circuit at the Taco controller and power the relay coil to open the contacts, disabling the boiler and draft valve. This fails closed with the oil on. Now you can arrange a variety of switches, stats, to power the relay and disable the oil.

I would have a manual toggle switch that is closed for pellet and open for oil and add in series your emergency low limit stat. So if you know you are in oil mode the toggle sw is open and oil responds to demand. If you know you are in pellet mode the toggle sw is closed and the EM low limit stat in series must also be closed. Opening of the EM low limit stat cuts power to the relay coil and the contacts go NC in the Taco TT circuit.

I am very clear in what I do as professional. Under no circumstances do I give advice to unlicensed people for wiring. Licensed pros I will help as much as possible. From experience multi zone boiler wiring is beyond many and my advice is do not do the actual wiring yourself. Understand it and decide what you want done then hire a licensed professional who also has the understanding necessary to do the job correctly. Hire a licensed professional for the work. Lots of guys smoke the controls on multizone heat, seen it many times.


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## REMARKABLEHEAT (Dec 19, 2012)

iceguy4 said:


> Pb 105 installed...up and running  Changed all my set back thermostats (up from 50 degrees) and now my wife is very happy(house @ 70+ degrees) My oil still come on at times but in 24 hours it has only run 30 min (hour meter). would like to nip that in the butt. My boiler is plumbed in series and no one here seems to know how to stop my oil burner from comming on . I only want my oil to come on in an emergency. Can anyone help?


i solved this problem at my home by removing the end switch that fires my boiler coming from my zone valves or pump relay. I then ran a separate thermostat to my boiler and set it 3 degrees below my zone thermostats.


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## mikeyny (Dec 20, 2012)

Yrs ago I fired my gas boiler for emergency using a single thermostat (honeywell round) on the wall in the living rm set at 50 degrees.  Below 50 it would trip a relay to fire the gas boiler and keep the house at 50.  real simple


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