# Whats a Square?



## deck2 (Mar 18, 2010)

We are in the process of a bathroom remodel and have discovered that the people that built our 50 yr old 1800sq ft ranch did not know what a square, level or a plumb were used for! I would sure like to meet these guys and teach them how to build a wall. Anyways after two new walls our new tub now sits in its own little acove  If I ever meet this contractor on the "other side" there will be a lot of questions regarding his thoughts and practices regarding his profession here on earth. Just hope It doesn't happen during this project because this bathroom may just kill me.


Thanks for giving me a place to vent my frustrations. LOL


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## woodsman23 (Mar 18, 2010)

I agree with you some contractors are in a hurry for almighty dollar and quality is just a passing thought.


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## jklingel (Mar 18, 2010)

deck2 said:
			
		

> ... did not know what a square, level or a plumb were used for! LOL


 Easy. All are tools of the Devil. Building is much faster w/out them.


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## Highbeam (Mar 18, 2010)

When remodeling a 50YO house did you really expect things to be plumb and square? I have a similar house built in 1963 and just did a bathroom remodel with new walls and all. The ceiling was saggy and the rafters weren't evenly spaced. Time is not kind to any house. Perhaps it was built properly and has just been squashed over time by gravity?


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## Flatbedford (Mar 18, 2010)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> When remodeling a 50YO house did you really expect things to be plumb and square? I have a similar house built in 1963 and just did a bathroom remodel with new walls and all. The ceiling was saggy and the rafters weren't evenly spaced. Time is not kind to any house. Perhaps it was built properly and has just been squashed over time by gravity?



That's what I was gonna say. It might have been square when it was built. My house has parts that are from ~120 years old to 18 years old and I have learned that levels and squares are only to be used as reference, but are not the final word. When I was rebuilding my ~100 year old barn I had to be even more flexible.


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## begreen (Mar 18, 2010)

Lived in old house most of my life. Never had one totally square and true. Next time I get back east I'll have to take a shot or two of the relative's house north of Boston. First floor looks pretty normal. Second floor looks like the homeowner decided to finish it off and was butt-faced when they did it. It's amazing they got a door to fit the jamb.


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## LLigetfa (Mar 19, 2010)

When my parents and I came to Canada we bought a very old homestead from Finnish settlers.  The buildings were all made with hand hewn dovetailed logs and there wasn't a level or plumb surface anywhere to be found.

Anyway, shortly after we moved in we started renovation the barn and the old owner came by to see what we were up to.  He was laughing so hard I thought he was going to keel over.  He took great humor in the fact we were using a measure tape and a level.  When he finally regained his composure and could speak, he said "You use a level and a tape to build a barn?  I never used a level to build the house!".  The upside was I always knew which corner of the room to find my marbles.


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## fbelec (Mar 19, 2010)

i've worked in brand new houses, and houses that were 350 year old, and every age in between and never found any of them level or square.


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## StackedLumber (Mar 19, 2010)

many houses of that age in rural areas have homemade rafters/trusses anyways made out of rough lumber.  In our 30 yr old house, the floor joists are all rough sawn timbers that are a full 2 1/4" thick, but grossly uneven.  add to that settling, wood shrinkage, poor mortar joints, and so on, our house, or any house of age will be a bit cockeyed in a variety of ways. It makes reflooring, putting in new windows or redoing a bathroom an adventure.


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## fbelec (Mar 19, 2010)

on top of it all, they must of had good beer back then. i've worked in houses that as you worked your way down the wall or ceiling the first joist is 14 inch center from the first the next 16 inches the next 20 the next 18. it was whatever back then. but you look at a house 200 years old, they used 4 inch trees with a flat cut to lay the 12 inch wide by 1 inch or 1 1/4 inch floor. it may sag a bit or tilt big time, but you could still park a car inside that house. one house i worked in was built in 1805. the plack on the house said it was capt cooke's house. i went in to install recessed lights in a second floor room, the ceiling was horse hair plaster on rough lumber not strapping or lath. it was thicker than the wood lath we know today. and the kicker was the main support in that room was 14 by 14 inch running diagonal corner to corner put together with 1.5 to 2 inch dowels in the center of the room. no strapping to run wires. what a headache


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## firefighterjake (Mar 19, 2010)

Rough cut lumber . . . lack of knowledge or tools . . . normal settlement over time . . . all reasons for a room/building to be out of square/plumb/not level.


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## billb3 (Mar 19, 2010)

My last house was built in 1924 out of rough hewn lumber and although shimmed to make up for the differences in lumber dimensions it was  very plumb and level.
My current house is supposedly built of old wooden railroad cars ( the  floors look they were made of the doors with all the z braces intact) and it is level and square. Rather odd build, though and small.
My father's house was built by his father(his first build). Replacing a window we took a wall apart and found he had used his level in lieu of  a 2x4. Guess he didn't use it much, either. Nothing in that house is  square level nor plumb. He built almost all the houses in the neighborhood and his skills improved remarkably. Money and time must have been influences.


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## madrone (Mar 19, 2010)

Totally know what you're up against. My house is 1910, and not square anywhere. No 2 joists are the same distance apart, sometimes a difference of 2-3 inches. I'm pretty sure everything was done by eye. When I remodeled my bathroom, I had a hell of a time at the corners where 2 sheets of drywall meet. I also discovered that the bathroom was conversion from a linen closest, and the original plumbers had randomly cut through floor joists, directly under the cast iron tub of course. In the end, I felt like even if I didn't do the best job, I significantly improved the quality of the work. Thanks, lazy previous owners!


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## emurphy@eclumber.com (Mar 23, 2010)

If you think about it makes perfect sense. The Idea of 16" on center was developed only because it works out for 4' x 8' plywood / sheetrock etc. There wasn't any reason to make something 16" on center. The better builders would put the next joist in a convenient location for the the next butt joint. My Mothers house was balloon framed. Which is of course is not leagal now (for fire safety). But the entire second story then the roof was held in place by the shear strength of nails. And it been there for better than 100 years.


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## Dakotas Dad (Mar 24, 2010)

When you work with older houses this is just how it is. They didn't use kiln dried lumber. 2x4's where, well, sometimes 2x4. after they got older, they were not. There were no standard "sizes" for materials. No-to-few building codes. 

Actually, even with the help of standard materials and practices, most homes are not square and plumb. The standard measuring tape is graduated in 16th's, but in the hundred's of measurements made to build a house even a little "slop" can add up by compounding to be measurable or even visable. Using a 48" level to plumb a door frame is almost impossible to get truly plumb, and bobs are slow. And even if you get it right, the house WILL settle. and that changes every angle in it.


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## hossthehermit (Mar 25, 2010)

Dakotas Dad said:
			
		

> When you work with older houses this is just how it is. They didn't use kiln dried lumber. 2x4's where, well, sometimes 2x4. after they got older, they were not. There were no standard "sizes" for materials. No-to-few building codes.
> 
> Actually, even with the help of standard materials and practices, most homes are not square and plumb. The standard measuring tape is graduated in 16th's, but in the hundred's of measurements made to build a house even a little "slop" can add up by compounding to be measurable or even visable. Using a 48" level to plumb a door frame is almost impossible to get truly plumb, and bobs are slow. And even if you get it right, the house WILL settle. and that changes every angle in it.



Working on an old house, the first question that needs to be answered is, "Do you want this level,or plumb, or square, or do ya want to make it fit so it looks right?" My $0.02 based on 59 years of old houses.


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## kenny chaos (Mar 25, 2010)

hossthehermit said:
			
		

> Dakotas Dad said:
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Yeah Hoss, his frustrations are not really caused by a contractor from 50 years ago.
He needs to understand the real cause/s and he can enjoy it.


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## fbelec (Mar 26, 2010)

hossthehermit said:
			
		

> Dakotas Dad said:
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how true.


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## woodsmaster (Mar 30, 2010)

Once I put a door in 3" out of plumb becouse the wall leaned in that much ! Would look kind of funny if the door was plumb and the walls not. Old houses were built of green lumber so even if built perfect
It all changes as the wood dries. I built house trailers for a while and we NEVER used levels, plumb bobs or squares.


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## madrone (Mar 30, 2010)

woodsmaster said:
			
		

> Once I put a door in 3" out of plumb becouse the wall leaned in that much ! Would look kind of funny if the door was plumb and the walls not.



Nice! It's interesting the difference between some old houses. My house goes every which way, and the floors crown ridiculously. Everything rolls to a wall, no matter where dropped. A friend's house is 20 years older, but amazingly well constructed. Everything there is as square as can be expected, probably because there's 2 or 3 times as much lumber in it's construction. My wife's family had a 1906 Sears house in TN that was crumbling away at the perimeter, but had a beautiful staircase that was absolutely silent when used.


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## kenny chaos (Mar 31, 2010)

woodsmaster said:
			
		

> Once I put a door in 3" out of plumb becouse the wall leaned in that much ! .







Three inches?
Swinging one way it would hit the floor.
Swinging the other way, it would swing up and hit you in the shins. :lol:


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## Rustaholic (Apr 1, 2010)

They still do those houses here.
Several years ago I was working for a friend finishing a beautiful log home.
On a diagonally attached lot this crew came in to build a Slash & Hacket slum house.
One of them came over to see our house and was bragging that they put up 50 houses already that year.
Well, They were putting in eight hour days and we were working four tens so the next day when we were done they were all gone.
We headed over there and I picked up a square and level.
Half way there I leaned them against a tree and one of the guys asked me why.
I said just line up the left edge of the side entry door with that bedroom door then line up the right hand side of the entry door with the wall at the end of the hallway.
The bedroom door was out of plumb by 3 1/2 inches one way and the hallway was out of plumb about two inches the other way.
I knew the entry door was right because of the T-111 on the wall.

Inside we saw one nail in the center of every jack stud.
It was all framed. The next day it was wired, plumbed, inspected and insulated.
The next day it was drywalled.
On Friday we were not there but Monday morning it was painted and the interior was finished.
Someone must have been there all weekend.
It was still just as out of wack.


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## fbelec (Apr 1, 2010)

Rustaholic said:
			
		

> They still do those houses here.
> Several years ago I was working for a friend finishing a beautiful log home.
> On a diagonally attached lot this crew came in to build a Slash & Hacket slum house.
> One of them came over to see our house and was bragging that they put up 50 houses already that year.
> ...



those are the guys that change the name of the company every 2 weeks


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## Rustaholic (Apr 1, 2010)

fbelec said:
			
		

> those are the guys that change the name of the company every 2 weeks



Actually NO.
The company they worked for had been building houses for 25 years at least.
There were other crews building high end houses at the same time these guys were building slum shacks.
The crawl space/foundation wasn't even square and level on that shack.
Since I didn't carry mine all the way over there I doubt a square or lever ever was on that property.


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## woodsmaster (Apr 4, 2010)

kenny chaos said:
			
		

> woodsmaster said:
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Luckly the floor saged enough to allow this to swing in. You did have to hang on to the door or the Knob would slam into the cast iron radiator


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## benjamin (Apr 4, 2010)

words of wisdom from a professional

"the tape's two inches wide"

"this aint a bar"

"good enough for who it's for"

"can't see it from where I live"

I've worked with people who had to have everything perfect, they're no longer in the construction business.  You just have to understand the tolerances that are inherent in the system.  Yeah, it can be a PITA to remodel a bathroom or kitchen, but that's your problem, not the guy who made it work decades ago.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending substandard work, but nothing made of wood and drywall is perfect.


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## Rustaholic (Apr 4, 2010)

benjamin said:
			
		

> words of wisdom from a professional
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> "the tape's two inches wide"
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While building a two story "house" in one end of a tall 40X80 pole barn every time the owner was there if my boss mentioned anything that was not up to code or good building standards we heard this from the owner,,,,,
"Can't see it from the bay."
The man and his wife only planned to live there in the Winters because all Summer they lived on their boat on West Grand Traverse Bay.


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## yknotcarpentry (Apr 10, 2010)

Just got done framing an addition on a house, MY crew and myself are fairly tedious on making sure things are square level plum, snapping lines, stringing dry lines, pulling 3,4,5's on everything we build  etc etc... dry wall gets hung,  mudded etc, things can change just ever so slightly. sometimes you gotta roll with it, please the eye rather then make things right. Of course it can all be fixed but did you want me to build you a new house or remodel the one you have?


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## fbelec (Apr 10, 2010)

you got to go with the flow. working beside a plumber a few days ago, he looked at me and said what's the matter don't you use a level. or a tape? as i put up a pipe run next to one that was existing. had to show him how off it would look if i did. you got to match things up or both look funny.


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## jharkin (Apr 15, 2010)

fbelec said:
			
		

> on top of it all, they must of had good beer back then. i've worked in houses that as you worked your way down the wall or ceiling the first joist is 14 inch center from the first the next 16 inches the next 20 the next 18. it was whatever back then. but you look at a house 200 years old, they used 4 inch trees with a flat cut to lay the 12 inch wide by 1 inch or 1 1/4 inch floor. it may sag a bit or tilt big time, but you could still park a car inside that house.



Sounds like my place   My stone foundation is capped with 6 ft long granite slabs that must way a couple tons each. On top of that is the post and beam frame mostly made of hand cut 6x6s (true 6" x6"). The first floor is two layers of inch thick (more like 3/4 after years of refinishing) boards ranging 12-18" wide, supported by 3x5" rafters mortised into 2 8x8 crossbeams that have tree-trunk posts for center support. nothing but wod pegs and mortised joints holding it all together.


Most of my floors are sagging of course, but surprisingly things are very uniform.  The rafters are all pretty much the same 3x5 and they are all on roughly 22" centers.  Whoever built it didn't just eyeball things.

And the creakiest floor? Its in the 1970s addition.  Go figure.


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## fbelec (Apr 16, 2010)

jharkin said:
			
		

> fbelec said:
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the house i refer to was built in 1805. for a captain cooke. some of the floor support in the basement had at one time termites but are gone now and the supports are half eaten away but the house stands. this house still has the original fireplaces one still has the support for a pot over the fire that swings out. i can't remember what that is called. shallow fireplace. the chimneys in this house are enormous. in the basement under one of the chimneys. is a archway with a hole that goes into the chimney at the far back corner. and next to it is a big brick hole that stores wood. this archway looks like at one time it use to be a meat smoker. first time i ever seen a smoker inside a house.


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## jharkin (Apr 16, 2010)

fbelec said:
			
		

> the house i refer to was built in 1805. for a captain cooke. some of the floor support in the basement had at one time termites but are gone now and the supports are half eaten away but the house stands. this house still has the original fireplaces one still has the support for a pot over the fire that swings out. i can't remember what that is called. shallow fireplace. the chimneys in this house are enormous. in the basement under one of the chimneys. is a archway with a hole that goes into the chimney at the far back corner. and next to it is a big brick hole that stores wood. this archway looks like at one time it use to be a meat smoker. first time i ever seen a smoker inside a house.



Same vintage as me (1795).  the pot support is called a fireplace crane.  Two of our fireplaces still have them.  

We have 2 chimneys - the main one is in the center of the house, sits on a roughly 6x8 ft stone base in the basement and is brick from the first floor up. That one has 2 fireplaces. It would have had a third but was rebuilt at some point and the original kitchen fireplace removed to use the flue for the boiler.

The second chimney is in the ell at the back of the house we think was added sometime mid-1800s. That chimney has an old cooking fireplace complete with beehive ovens and all. It was never rebuilt so its unusable as a fireplace but rather thats where the stove is installed with a ss liner up through the old flue.

The fshallow fireplaces, if the sides are sloped, are called rumfords. Thas how most all fireplaces were built after they were invented in ~ 1790.  The shallowness and sloped sides reflect a lot more heat into the room, big innovation for its time.  Before that time you see the big deep colonial era fireplaces - the ones so big you can walk into.


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