# Heating oil at 3.69 a gallon or $925 for a 250 gallon fill who can afford this



## jmcp (Nov 26, 2011)

Are the markets gone crazy one could buy 4 tons of pellets for this price.I have read that New England has reduced it consumption of heating oil from 4.3 billion gallons in 2004 to 3.2 billion gallons in 2009 and the trend is continuing surely the oil industry is watching what is happening are they too greedy to care no one wants to heat with oil anymore its to expensive surely we will have demand destruction and prices will have to collapse.These speculators on Wall Street can not be in touch with reality to think that people are willing to fork over a grand to fill their tank 3 times a year.I would like to hear your opinion on the outcome of this heating season.


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## John97 (Nov 26, 2011)

I remember when home heating oil prices got crazy 7-8 years ago when I was at my old place before I got married.

Now, I have dual-zone heat pumps and my PECO bill is in the $500 range each month for the winter.  That's coming to a stop next month when my insert gets installed.   

Insanity...


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## silverfox103 (Nov 26, 2011)

If I didn't have the pellet stoves, that's exactly what I would be paying.  This year, I added the second stove to balance the heat out.  I will not be calling the oil man at all.  Not to date myself, but I can remember when oil was 17 cents per gallon, pre embargo.

Tom C.


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## jtakeman (Nov 26, 2011)

My last oil bill was in the spring of 1994. Much less than it is today, But still more than I wanted to pay. I have never looked back and glad I shed the oil glut.

He is a qoute that came from a guy who sells pellets for a living. He wanted me to pass it on.



> Crude oil â€¦thus heating oil is a world market, not just in NE and the price is determined by the world demand. Just because the consumption of heating oil has dropped in NE in the past few years doesn't mean the price is about to fall out of bed. At the same time it might be dropping in this country the demand in countries like China and India has exploded and we are competing for that same oil that goes thereâ€¦..Supply and demand. Don't blame the speculators as that is an easy outâ€¦.all a speculator does is provided liquidity to a market and for every buyer on a futures market there also has to be a sellerâ€¦.they can temporarily bump a market one way or the other, but only for a short period of timeâ€¦.the world market for oil is massive and there is only so much product on the market at any given time. If you have more demand over time, and the same supply, prices will riseâ€¦..as with any commodity. That is how capitalism works.



I will also add that futures are what controls the price of oil/gas. Futures are what crashed the oil price back in 08 not actual sales. Hopefully someone that knows a bit more about it than I, Will explain in more detail about futures.


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## helismash (Nov 26, 2011)

I paid 3.69 in October. Got a bill for $687.00 and thought about what it would cost to heat this year. That was scary so enter the new pellet stoves. I still heat my hot water with oil so I will use about 1/2 - 3/4 of a tank per year for now. That's going to change next year as well then the ol will only be a back up.


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## DneprDave (Nov 26, 2011)

I have a one thousand gallon oil tank, I can go two years without filling it, but I top it off annually. I shop around and split a load with my neighbor, they give a price break when we do that. This year we paid $3.43/gallon.

Last summer, I installed a pellet stove on an enclosed porch, I've already noticed that the oil furnace runs a lot less. I'll know if I saved money next year when I top off again.

Dave


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## helismash (Nov 26, 2011)

DneprDave said:
			
		

> I have a one thousand gallon oil tank, I can go two years without filling it, but I top it off annually. I shop around and split a load with my neighbor, they give a price break when we do that. This year we paid $3.43/gallon.
> 
> Last summer, I installed a pellet stove on an enclosed porch, I've already noticed that the oil furnace runs a lot less. I'll know if I saved money next year when I top off again.
> 
> Dave



Man am I glad I don't have to fill that tank!


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## gerryger (Nov 26, 2011)

helismash said:
			
		

> I paid 3.69 in October. Got a bill for $687.00 and thought about what it would cost to heat this year. That was scary so enter the new pellet stoves. I still heat my hot water with oil so I will use about 1/2 - 3/4 of a tank per year for now. That's going to change next year as well then the ol will only be a back up.



I used to heat my domestic hot water with oil also. Changed that last year with a Stibel Electron on demand tankless water heater. Only uses electricity when in use.  Best thing I ever did. I HIGHLY recommend this unit. I got an oil delivery the other day and I only needed 13 gallons. I can't wait for my oil guy to call me in January when my contract is up. I am sure he will ask why my consumption is down from last year. $500 a month oil bills will be a thing of the past for me. 

If anyone is a DIYer installing that tankless on demand water heater is pretty simple. It will cut down on the expense of having to hire a plumber and an electrician. The only major requirement is that you must have 220 service coming into your electrical panel not 110. This is a deal breaker for the people that I know because to upgrade the electrical service is pricey but if you have the 220 service already then it's a no brainer.


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## slls (Nov 26, 2011)

My area $3.25 a gallon.


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## jdege (Nov 26, 2011)

I locked a 1,000 gal at 3.29 in July, but thanks to my new insert I expect to have half of it left over come spring.


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## heat seeker (Nov 26, 2011)

It's $3.629/gal around here today. There were no lock-in offers around here that I could find. I'm just using oil for hot water these days. In the last 10 months, I've used 170 gallons of oil, far less than the 1100 we used to use.


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## russ79@hotmail.com (Nov 26, 2011)

My tank is basically empty right now, maybe 20 gallons left.  I have not got oil since 1/3/09 and even then i only bought 200 gal.  I like that much more than 650-700 gallons per year.  I don't know how anyone can afford HHO anymore. I am dreading calling the oil guy, it's going to be  another $700 but I am burning more pellets now, wife works from home and can turn the stove off in early shoulder times before its to hot.  Hopefully get more than 2 years from this fill up.  I wish I switched to pellets sooner.


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## TLHinCanada (Nov 26, 2011)

Even up here in the great white north my last bill was a$1.20 a liter, which works out to $4.80 a gallon.  Adding insult to injury they put a sales tax of 13% on a couple of years ago (which is approx. $5.32 a gallon).  Just think how much worse it could be for you.


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## MarkF48 (Nov 26, 2011)

My Massachusetts oil dealer had been as high as $3.90 for a pre-buy recently, but currently his pre-buy has dropped back to $3.63. I still have 219 gallons left from last year that I purchased at about $2.50 a gallon and with the new pellet stove I'm hoping to stretch those gallons out. Also burning coal this year which I had done years ago in a different part of the house. Two years ago I got rid of a failing oil fired hot water heater and installed an energy efficient Marathon Electric Water Heater and my electric bill difference over the course of a year was just a little more than what I was paying to have the oil guy maintain the oil water heater. 


New England Heating Oil Prices


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## 343amc (Nov 26, 2011)

My tank is still around half full.  Oil truck hasn't been here for over a year.  When I bought my house 10 years ago, oil was a buck and change a gallon.  I had a new oil furnace installed 8 years ago when it was about $1.60 a gallon.  The furnace  hasn't been used much in the past 5 or so years.  I've got 3 tons or so of pellets in the barn and two cords of firewood.  I don't plan on inviting the oil truck to my house any time soon.


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## TLHinCanada (Nov 26, 2011)

I put a timer on my hot water heater several years ago, so it only runs 8 hours a day.  The savings ten years ago were 35 dollars a month.  At the rates they charge today it will be a good deal more.  I installed one in this house a year ago and it cost me 65 dollars.  I'm sure south of the border you could do much better.


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## UncleAnthony (Nov 27, 2011)

When oil was $4/gallon in 2008 is when I switched to pellets. 
Got a $5k ( yes $5k ) budget plan bill (for one year) from the oil company !
Went done the Enviro stove path instead. House is alot warmer for ALOT cheaper. 
The Xmas card from my former oil company stopped coming though....

The people and knowledge on this site have helped tremendously,STILL the best site on the web. 

I don't know how people who are soley on oil are doing it.

Will have to look at the Stibel Electron  recommended by gerryger (thanks).
This knowledge sharing is what makes this forum great !


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## 91220da (Nov 27, 2011)

Hi Guy's
Just dropped in from the Boiler Room.  When Oil was $4 per gallon in 2008 we invested in an indoor boiler for our old farm house.  We went from 3 fills at 550 gallons each for a total of $6600.00 to 7-8 cords of firewood.  Some free most $100 to $200 a cord or $1600 total.  Have never looked back.  My parents and brother both use pellets and have saved thousands also.  Have a great winter and just say no to oil.


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## tumbles (Nov 27, 2011)

Down to about 275 - 300 gallons a year and it's mainly for hot water.  I'm happy with that as it's my back up for my heat too!  Used 126 gallons since last April and we locked in at 3.19 with a neighborhood co-op.   I remember filling up for 59 cents in the late 90s.  Crazy how things have changed.  I wonder what the cheapest way to heat hot water is now?  I wonder what it will be in the future?


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## silverfox103 (Nov 27, 2011)

UncleAnthony said:
			
		

> The Xmas card from my former oil company stopped coming though....



And let me guess, you took him off your Xmas card list also and the rolodex.

Tom C.


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## hotdawg (Nov 27, 2011)

Hi, my last fill up with a quarter of a tank left was in October.  Cost roughly $800.  A full fill up would be around $1000.  We usually fill up at least 4 times a year so we spend around $3200-4000 on oil give or take some.   It was getting way out of hand so we decided to supplement with a pellet stove this year hoping to cut down on oil usage.  We can get 4 TONS of pellets for the price of ONE FILL UP!  Sad part was with all the oil we used, the house wasn't even that warm.  Our house was built in 2002 so pretty tight overall.  Definitely not drafty.  We have high hopes for our new pellet stove!  Hoping to NOT have to call the oil man next month!


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## thedude110 (Nov 27, 2011)

Past performance does not necessarily dictate future results, yes.

Yes, the price of oil is out of control.  Fortunately, those of us who have invested in pellet stoves have a good alternative for now.

Ten years from now, we'll also have options, especially if the price of oil falls and the price of pellets rises.  The most important thing, as a consumer, is not to be beholden to one energy source.


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## VTrider (Nov 27, 2011)

Last time oil man made a delivery to my house......never.  House was built in 1983 & never had any type of furnace, whole house heated w/wood stove from basement.  Bought the home 8 years ago, decided to switch over heating system this year and just couldn't fathom using oil - due to price & to keep the 'alternative heating' tradition of the home.  Whole house heated w/pellets now and couldn't be happier.


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## RKS130 (Nov 27, 2011)

On October 24 my Harman Accentra was installed.  About 20 minutes after the install team left, the oil truck pulled up.  We have an old 275 gallon tank and had been topped off at the end of last heating season, but burned oil over the summer for domestic hot water.

We took 131 gallons at $3.899, or $510 + 3% tax!  

Last year we spent about $4800 on oil, service contract and one repair that for mysterious reasons was not covered by the contyract.  Granted my mother in law was living with us last winter and we had to keep the house a little warmer and run the oil burner longer each day, but I have already broken even on buying the Accentra, installation and about 3 tons of pellets.

I heard a report the other day that this will be the most expensive home heating oil season ever.  A friend just paid over $4/gallon.  I am thankful to be free of that and will figure out an alternative for the DHW for next year.  We have natural gas in the house as well, so that may be a way to go, but I have to look into the options.


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## nate379 (Nov 27, 2011)

If you have natural gas that is usually cheaper than fuel oil

Here fuel oil right now is $3.90.  1 Gal is 115,000 BTUs

1 CCF of natural gas is 103,000 BTUs.  1 CCF costs $0.80... so equal to fuel oil BTU is probably around 0.90 (I ain't doing the match it's 3 AM and I can't think that much!)


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## rickwai (Nov 27, 2011)

NATE379 said:
			
		

> If you have natural gas that is usually cheaper than fuel oil
> 
> Here fuel oil right now is $3.90.  1 Gal is 115,000 BTUs
> 
> 1 CCF of natural gas is 103,000 BTUs.  1 CCF costs $0.80... so equal to fuel oil BTU is probably around 0.90 (I ain't doing the match it's 3 AM and I can't think that much!)


Your price seems pretty low?
In the lower 48 I think the average price for NG is $2 per therm


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## lessoil (Nov 27, 2011)

91220da said:
			
		

> Hi Guy's
> Just dropped in from the Boiler Room.  When Oil was $4 per gallon in 2008 we invested in an indoor boiler for our old farm house.  We went from 3 fills at 550 gallons each for a total of $6600.00 to 7-8 cords of firewood.  Some free most $100 to $200 a cord or $1600 total.  Have never looked back.  My parents and brother both use pellets and have saved thousands also.  Have a great winter and just say no to oil.


Yup we have replaced 500 gal/yr oil with 4 tons of pellets. Current avg price is $3.50/gal in our area. We paid $209/ton.
$836 vs $1750(todays price) Hmm.... warmer too!
Our Governor is looking into using more natural gas. Funny how the oil companies are complaining again just like
they did in 2008 when many bought pellet stoves. Oil was $4.50/gal at that time.


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## save$ (Nov 27, 2011)

Seems that our best options are often where there is a variety of options. i.e.   Wood and pellet stoves, and wood and pellet providers. Mix that and the fact that you are personally involved, not plug and play as in the oil/gas furnace.   Home heating oil cost is influenced by factors far beyond use in the north east.  Best to work with things you have some control or influence with.   We are very pleased with our pellet stove. Our home is warmer.  Cost have come in control. We are involved.  This past year we started canning food again.  Very gratified with being more directly involved. Networking in this forum has helped tremendously.


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## DAKSY (Nov 27, 2011)

Oil man came last week & our monthly drop was 12 gallons - Shucks.
I almost bought a coil system for the P61A so I could use it for DHW,
but it looked like it would REALLY make cleaning the accordion heat
exchanger a total pain...Gimme my pellets any day.


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## lessoil (Nov 27, 2011)

DAKSY said:
			
		

> Oil man came last week & our monthly drop was 12 gallons - Shucks.
> I almost bought a coil system for the P61A so I could use it for DHW,
> but it looked like it would REALLY make cleaning the accordion heat
> exchanger a total pain...Gimme my pellets any day.


If we had another pellet stove in the basement I would try to fabricate
an external heat exchanger to help with DHW. Seems to me a forum member did try this.
Years ago my Parents had a loop installed(External) between the wood stove and hot water tank. (No Pump)
Worked well enough to blow the relief valve even with a small fire.


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## UncleAnthony (Nov 27, 2011)

silverfox103 said:
			
		

> UncleAnthony said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sure did !


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## maple1 (Nov 27, 2011)

Oil's getting worse, no doubt, but it's still not as much as electric (here, anyway), and no NG here either.

I'm still debating what my back up will be here next year, but so far, it's still oil.


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## kenfsr (Nov 27, 2011)

yes i was on auto delivery with Standard Oil, what a rip off, they came and delivered and the price was 3.89 gal, called them right up and canceled my account with them. i still am dependent on oil for hot water, but the children are not at home now , 1 in college and the other moved out on her own, so less usage for hot water. 4 tons in basement redy for winter, pd 197 ton , should last the season. should save approx 2000 for season. so glad we changed to pellet heat , going on 4 years now, love it.


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## jmcp (Nov 27, 2011)

I used to heat the hot water with oil but had a plumber come and hook up an electric hot water heater so now the furnace never goes on unless the stove cannot keep up.I did not see much a difference in my electric bill I put in a 40 gallon tank.


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## JIBLANE (Nov 27, 2011)

Wow Its already been said seems where all going down the same road oil is just out of control. I would always think twice when touching the Thermostat last year this year Enviro M55 love it I Think. Now all I need are Solar Panels and Electric Cars!
 Maybe one more stove on the other side of my house because everyone now wants to live by the New Stove and the other side is still not under 68 degrees! Everyone now took off there Hats and Gloves and walk around in there under ware on the Stove side including me cause I start to pass out from the heat as sweat shoots out like a weak water pistol from every orifice of my body. I need to keep a Mop near by at all times. I drink 12 gallons of water just to stay alive! I can't drink Milk cause I look like a deformed COW Utter.


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## Bank (Nov 27, 2011)

My house stays so warm it's rediculous. Now all I have to do is get an electric hot water heater and be done with the oil thing, and only use it as a back up!


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## Amaralluis (Nov 28, 2011)

I agree that the price of oil is getting out of hand.
The sooner people stop buying it the better.
Its criminal people having to pay so much to have a warm house in the winter.
Its not a luxury its a necessity.


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## nate379 (Nov 28, 2011)

Your right, I did not factor in all the b/s taxes and "fees".

My last bill, 19 Sep to 17 Oct was 34ccf for a total of $39.57, so that figures to $1.16/ccf.

I use natural gas for the clothes dryer, kitchen stove and also run the boiler for the hot water, garage slab heat and I keep the house T Stats at ~65* so it comes on once in a while.  I'm sure my next bill will be higher as it was colder.



			
				rickwai said:
			
		

> NATE379 said:
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## North of 60 (Nov 28, 2011)

$4.92 a gallon or $1.30 a litre as of Friday.  You guys still got er cheap, plus a milder weather to heat with.  Time to insulate.
Seen $5 a gallon before.  It will be here again.  Good thing we've got Pine trees.


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## JoeP (Nov 28, 2011)

The oil company around here have 100gal min to 150 gallon min. I ordered the min 100 gallon it cost 4.14.9 a gallon plus tax. the pellet stove will be ran most the time,fuel as a backup or while cleaning pellet stove. I think next summer I will buy another pellet stove and give up on fuel.


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## silverfox103 (Nov 28, 2011)

JoeP said:
			
		

> The oil company around here have 100gal min to 150 gallon min. I ordered the min 100 gallon it cost 4.14.9 a gallon plus tax. the pellet stove will be ran most the time,fuel as a backup or while cleaning pellet stove. I think next summer I will buy another pellet stove and give up on fuel.



I did just what you are talking about Joe.  I bought a second stove and have an electric hot water heater.  Goal this year, no oil man and it's worked so far.

Tom C.


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## BradH70 (Nov 28, 2011)

I am currently heating my DHW with HHO at around .75-1 gallon per day. I did some "quick" calculations on what it would cost to use an electric hot water tank using the manufactures estimated kWh/year estimate and it looks like I would save about $350/year over oil. So with this, it would take ~3 years to start to get a pay back from switching to an electric hot water tank.

So, now, how could I determine how much per year an on demand electric hot water heater would cost. Does anyone that has switched from oil to an electric on demand have these numbers? I know it would very by household, but it would still give me a good idea of the savings.


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## maple1 (Nov 28, 2011)

BradH70 said:
			
		

> I am currently heating my DHW with HHO at around .75-1 gallon per day. I did some "quick" calculations on what it would cost to use an electric hot water tank using the manufactures estimated kWh/year estimate and it looks like I would save about $350/year over oil. So with this, it would take ~3 years to start to get a pay back from switching to an electric hot water tank.
> 
> So, now, how could I determine how much per year an on demand electric hot water heater would cost. Does anyone that has switched from oil to an electric on demand have these numbers? I know it would very by household, but it would still give me a good idea of the savings.



I can't answer the on demand questions, but have you looked at heat pump water heaters? You could get a Geyser & just plumb it into your existing water heater pretty easily. I don't know a heck of a lot about those either, aside from on line reading, but seems to me a heat pump heater would be an even better way to go - especially factoring in their air conditioning/dehumidifying capabilites too (as long as they last, that is - fairly new technology).


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## briansol (Nov 28, 2011)

I bought my stove when i got my fillup at 4.89/gal back in 07 or 08 i think it was...

I need to invest in an electric hot water heater though, as my boiler still runs and uses oil.   I use about 1 full tank in 2 fill ups (125 gal each time) a year.   And that's mostly for hot water!   Thats like 700.  i really need to just call a plumber and install the thing.   But then there's the on-demand type that run on gas, but there's no gas here, so i'd need a tank....  and then there's those solar water heaters....   AHHHHHHHHHH@#$@#$#@@#   

it's never easy when you don't have a budget for any of it


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## DneprDave (Nov 28, 2011)

Wow, quite a few oil fired hot water heaters among the people here. I have to admit, I've seen only electric and gas home hot water heaters.

Dave


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## RidgeRunner56 (Nov 29, 2011)

Sure glad I made the switch to pellets this year


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## PJPellet (Nov 29, 2011)

DneprDave said:
			
		

> Wow, quite a few oil fired hot water heaters among the people here. I have to admit, I've seen only electric and gas home hot water heaters.
> 
> Dave




Yep, me too.  Most people in my area use propane for hot water and the balance use electric.


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## whit (Nov 29, 2011)

briansol said:
			
		

> I need to invest in an electric hot water heater though, as my boiler still runs and uses oil.


I'm still heating water with oil. But electric hot water would still be more expensive. My oil was pre-buy at $3.55. A couple of years ago when I worked up the numbers it looked like the 17 cents-a-kilowatt electricity here would be more expensive until oil reaches $4.50 or so. And on the really cold January mornings, it's good to have a blast of oil heat.


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## jtakeman (Nov 29, 2011)

I have electric, If I had my choice? I'd do natural gas. Might look into the NG in the springtime. If its reasonable to have it installed/piped to the house. May add the NG genny too?


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## heat seeker (Nov 29, 2011)

A couple of houses ago, I had a dedicated oil water heater, made by Boch (sp). The only way I could run out of hot water was to fill the two-person hot tub at full speed. It couldn't quite keep up with that. But a normal shower, etc, didn't even tax it. It could recover from a cold fill to 160Âº in about 20 minutes or less. I liked it because it gave the furnace a break during the summer, and the heating requirements didn't affect it during the winter.
I now have an oil/hot water furnace the provides the DHW. It doesn't run much since the pellet stove arrived - yeah!


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## bluedogz (Nov 29, 2011)

j-takeman said:
			
		

> I will also add that futures are what controls the price of oil/gas. Futures are what crashed the oil price back in 08 not actual sales. Hopefully someone that knows a bit more about it than I, Will explain in more detail about futures.



Correctly stated.

Futures are nothing more than an agreement between two parties to trade a commodity at a set price at some future date.  Those of us heating with oil are familiar with a "lock-in" price that our oil man offers prior to actual delivery (usually, as long as we buy 1000 gal. or something.)  That, my friends, is a futures contract- I'll pay you X for Y commodity, but not till Z time.  This shifts the risk of price changes from the buyer to the seller.

Where futures get hairy is that this "contract" can be traded on a largely unregulated secondary exchange.  So, if your oil carrier locked in X price for you on Z date, his income is based on that margin.  This is not so big for Joe Blow HHO Deliveries, but imagine Joe is an airline burning 55 gallons a minute times several hundred jetliners, and you'll see why the fuel futures market is so huge- ANYONE can introduce themselves as an intermediary between you and Joe, more or less gambling that the price of HHO will move one way or another.  THAT is the proverbial "speculator."

This is only one of the reasons that the delivered price of HHO (or gasoline, for example) is so volatile.  Another is that there's not a lot of margin in the product; a typical gas station makes more profit off the pack of smokes you bought while filling up than they did on the gas, but the gas was the loss-leader that got you there.  Our demand for cheap gas did this, encouraging gas stations to move away from the mom-n-pop "service station" model to the multi-pump convenience store model.  It often is frustrating to hear a person assign blame to "greedy oil companies" for fuel prices when in fact it was our own demand for fossil fuels that gave those companies a reason to exist.


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## maple1 (Nov 29, 2011)

whit said:
			
		

> briansol said:
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I just did that with my numbers here (not sure why I didn't before), and my current 15 cent electricity would be equivalent to $1.65/litre oil (more or less).

Jeez, I hope $1.65/litre oil is a ways away yet, $1.10 is bad enough...


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## Gasifier (Nov 29, 2011)

Hey,

Just another visitor from the boiler room. Cool post jmcp. I have two brothers who use pellet stoves and they love them. Saving money and simple with less of the work than heating with wood. I bought my house 17 years ago. If I remember right the price of oil was $0.89/gallon. I heated this large apartment house with oil because it was inexpensive enough to do so. After about 10 years of renting I converted the house over to one large house and attached garage. The remodel was done a little at a time over a several years. Long story. But I started heating with a Wood Stove in the basement about 6 years ago when oil went up to around $2/gallon. That wood stove heated about 60-70% of the house. I loved the wood stove. But the price of oil just kept going up. I just purchased an indoor wood gasification boiler last spring when they were on sale. I also installed a large storage tank with it. The system heats 100% of my entire house, garage, and my Domestic Hot Water. All with wood. With an indirect hot water heater I can use it to heat my DHW year round because of the large heat storage tank. Depending on temperatures, I use to go through between 1600-2000 gallons of oil a year. That would be about $5600-7500 today! When I went to the wood stove I cut my consumption down to about 500-600 gallons a year. My boiler system came on line October 1, 2011. I had 1/4 tank of oil. I still have 1/4 tank now. What a relief. Thanks for this thread about oil. I just happen to see it in recent forum subjects on the web page. Have a good one.


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## jtakeman (Nov 29, 2011)

bluedogz said:
			
		

> j-takeman said:
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Thanks for the explanation bluedogz!  :coolsmile:


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## rickwai (Nov 29, 2011)

heat seeker said:
			
		

> A couple of houses ago, I had a dedicated oil water heater, made by Boch (sp). The only way I could run out of hot water was to fill the two-person hot tub at full speed. It couldn't quite keep up with that. But a normal shower, etc, didn't even tax it. It could recover from a cold fill to 160Âº in about 20 minutes or less. I liked it because it gave the furnace a break during the summer, and the heating requirements didn't affect it during the winter.
> I now have an oil/hot water furnace the provides the DHW. It doesn't run much since the pellet stove arrived - yeah!


WOW 160F seems a little warm for DHW. Recommended temp is no higher than 126F I think?


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## JoeP (Nov 29, 2011)

I made alot of changes here, insulated home, Installed pellet Stove best move yet! took out propane hotwater heater installed new energy star Electric hot water heater, bought new cook Stove propane but electric start. Called propane company and told them come get thier tank. Bought 100lb tank have it filled myself just for cooking. Next move buy another pellet stove. I could of bought a couple ton of pellets for what fuel oil cost, best of all Money stays in the USA. I will look into the Pellet stove water heater thanks


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## silverfox103 (Nov 29, 2011)

JoeP said:
			
		

> I made alot of changes here, insulated home, Installed pellet Stove best move yet! took out propane hotwater heater installed new energy star Electric hot water heater, bought new cook Stove propane but electric start. Called propane company and told them come get thier tank. Bought 100lb tank have it filled myself just for cooking. Next move buy another pellet stove. I could of bought a couple ton of pellets for what fuel oil cost, best of all Money stays in the USA. I will look into the Pellet stove water heater thanks



I went down a similar path Joe, started with one pellet stove, added an electric water heater, bought a second pellet stove to balance the heat.  Goal this year, don't use any oil; so far so good!

Tom C.


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## BradH70 (Nov 29, 2011)

It would be great if some of the members that have switched from using HHO to using electric to heat DHW could post what they believe there savings have been. Include how much oil was used per year compared to electric bill increase over 12 months. Also include number of baths and number of people in the household.

I'm contemplating switching to electric to heat our DHW. Using the PSNH rate per kWh, I would be saving $250-$400 (yes, that is 1 or 2 tons of pellets) a year, depending on what numbers are used for oil consumption and price and the manufacturers estimated kWh/year cost of operation for the hot water tank. This savings does not include the up front cost of a new take and installation. Tankless systems are a little harder to determine annual cost since it really depends on usage (gallons per year?). However, I did find and equation that seemed to make sense - 365 * 12.02/EF * kWh rate = estimated annual operating cost. Using this equation, the operating cost is right around the same as an electric tank system.


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## silverfox103 (Nov 29, 2011)

BradH70 said:
			
		

> It would be great if some of the members that have switched from using HHO to using electric to heat DHW could post what they believe there savings have been. Include how much oil was used per year compared to electric bill increase over 12 months. Also include number of baths and number of people in the household.



Hi Brad

I'm not a numbers cruncher, but in my town we have are own utility and probably the cheapest electric rates in the state (we have a hydro dam).  It was a no brainer to swap to electric, I know we are saving.  I also just started thinking about putting the hot water heater on a time clock.

Tom C.


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## firecracker_77 (Nov 29, 2011)

My sister used to live in CT and she locked in a rate for the 2008-2009 season after oil prices went crazy in summer '08.  Then, oil dropped like a stone in winter '08 and she got hung out to dry on that price.  In the midwest, natural gas is cheap.  None of that heating oil nonsense.  I burn wood because I like it, not necessarily to save money.


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## JoeP (Nov 29, 2011)

I could tell you this,Since changing to Electric hot water bill is maybe 15 more than before. thats 3 people showering once aday plus dishes, daughter takes alonger time LOL but propane was budget price $180 month (they where fixing to increase it) cooking + hotwater, so Iam saving just have'nt rip it down to exact.


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## whit (Nov 29, 2011)

heat seeker said:
			
		

> A couple of houses ago, I had a dedicated oil water heater, made by Boch (sp). . . . I liked it because it gave the furnace a break during the summer, and the heating requirements didn't affect it during the winter.
> I now have an oil/hot water furnace the provides the DHW.


One of the guys who worked on my oil furnace told me they last longer when used for hot water as well as heat. He said if they're off for the summer, there's a lot more corrosion. Claimed having it fire up to heat water year round can double its life.

Me, I don't know. Apologies for going so far off topic here.


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## Luvmyempyre (Nov 29, 2011)

We built our house in 1998 and the first oil fill up was at .84 the lowest we ever paid was .69. The most we ever paid was 4.03 that's almost a 6 fold increase over 13 years .


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## jmcp (Nov 29, 2011)

The way its going diesel fuel will only be used in transportation no more heating ,pellets are a good alternative but some people cannot lug a 40 lb bag around whats a retireee in frail health and a fixed income to do with these prices maybe the bulk delivery and silo would work.


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## Bank (Nov 29, 2011)

Electric water heater is on my agenda by Christmas, I will be using oil as a back-up.


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## ironman70 (Nov 29, 2011)

gerryger said:
			
		

> helismash said:
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I've heard that tankless water heaters don't do well with hard well water.  Thoughts?


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## hemlock (Nov 29, 2011)

I switched from indirect oil to an electric Marathon DWH, and am saving quite a bit of money (about $50-60 per month).  Once this oil tank runs dry, out it goes for good.


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## ByCo (Nov 29, 2011)

ironman70 said:
			
		

> gerryger said:
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I'm on my fourth year with an electric tankless water heater and haven't noticed any drop off in performance yet. I have very hard water, the maximum life expectancy for coffee makers in my house is nine months.  The manufacturer claimed that hard water was not a problem because the water was always moving when the elements are on so deposits can't build up. That could be because it sure seems like I have to clean the deposits from the shower head and faucet aerators a lot more often than I used to.


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## nate379 (Nov 29, 2011)

I would not figure that a gas fired water heater vs my indirect fired one would make too much difference.  I do know it's near impossible to run out of hot water with my setup, even when I hook the pressure washer to the water heater to wash stuff.


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## mepellet (Nov 29, 2011)

JoeP said:
			
		

> I made alot of changes here, insulated home, Installed pellet Stove best move yet! took out propane hotwater heater installed new energy star Electric hot water heater, bought new cook Stove propane but electric start. Called propane company and told them come get thier tank. Bought 100lb tank have it filled myself just for cooking. Next move buy another pellet stove. I could of bought a couple ton of pellets for what fuel oil cost, best of all Money stays in the USA. I will look into the Pellet stove water heater thanks



What type of energy star electric water heater?  To my knowledge regular electric water heaters are not energy star rated.  Same thing with electric clothes dryers.


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## Mainely Saws (Nov 29, 2011)

I agree with a previous posting that having a number of choices for heat is a plus . I heat mainly with a wood stove but I also have a propane stove ( Lopi Berkshire ) & some electric baseboard units . I have an eletric hot water heater that has two insulating blankets around it . Since I took the oil furnace out , I have a spare chimney that I want to use for a basement pellet stove install . I intend to use the pellet stove for those really cold nights in Jan/Feb . 
An electric water heater can be a bit pricey to run but compared to an oil fired water heater there are next to no maintenence costs .


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## Luvmyempyre (Nov 29, 2011)

The good thing about electric water heaters is that they are 99% energy efficient,the bad thing is that electric is the most expensive and you are at the mercy of the giant power companies. In CT over 50% of our power comes from oil fired and natural gas fired generators,so you can expect to pay more every year.


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## DonD (Nov 29, 2011)

JoeP said:
			
		

> I made alot of changes here, insulated home, Installed pellet Stove best move yet! took out propane hotwater heater installed new energy star Electric hot water heater, bought new cook Stove propane but electric start. Called propane company and told them come get thier tank. Bought 100lb tank have it filled myself just for cooking. Next move buy another pellet stove. I could of bought a couple ton of pellets for what fuel oil cost, best of all Money stays in the USA. I will look into the Pellet stove water heater thanks



Interesting... we have a big propane tank that is owned by Amerigas. We only use 60 gal per year for cooking and Amergas tries to charge me tank rental because we don't meet the minimum. I usually get them to drop the rental charge but playing that game every year is getting old.

We want to keep propane for cooking but didn't think we had any options other than sticking with a big delivery company like Amerigas. I'd love to tell them to come get their tank. What exactly did you do? How do you get the 100 lb tank filled? Bring it somewhere? Are there companies out there that will deliver to your tank?

I was actually trying to think of ways to use more propane (Domestic HW? Genny? Pipe to my barbecue?) so I don't have to worry about the rental. I'd rather get smaller tank like you and get it filled.


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## PJPellet (Nov 29, 2011)

DonD said:
			
		

> JoeP said:
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I agree, details please...    I would love to do the same thing.


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## BradH70 (Nov 29, 2011)

When we built our house 8 years ago, I went to one of the local gas suppliers and asked if I could buy a 100 gallon (not pound) tank and they had no problem with it. I actually still use them to fill the tank up. It is used only for cooking and the clothes dryer.


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## JoeP (Nov 29, 2011)

Its 5 Star energy rated GE, here is a list of all energy star products:http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=products.pr_find_es_products
 As for the Propane Tank Yes You can own your own Tank, call around to see who fills. I took my tank in to truvalue or who ever has the best price. Lowes sells Tanks and Regulators at a good price. I was lucky & bought my tank new for $100. Also to you handy guys you could also hook BQ grill if you want and do away with the 20lbs tanks, or have them for back up.Make sure you have your new tank and fittings call your propane company tell them come pickup their tank up, They will credit you whats left in the tank .what was left in mine covered the cost of my new tank and fillup. Here is the Tank I have from lowes http://reviews.lowes.com/0534/1080473/reviews.htm


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## mepellet (Nov 29, 2011)

JoeP said:
			
		

> Its 5 Star energy rated GE, here is a list of all energy star products:http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=products.pr_find_es_products
> As for the Propane Tank Yes You can own your own Tank, call around to see who fills. I took my tank in to truvalue or who ever has the best price. Lowes sells Tanks and Regulators at a good price. I was lucky & bought my tank new for $100. Also to you handy guys you could also hook BQ grill if you want and do away with the 20lbs tanks, or have them for back up.Make sure you have your new tank and fittings call your propane company tell them come pickup their tank up, They will credit you whats left in the tank .what was left in mine covered the cost of my new tank and fillup. Here is the Tank I have from lowes http://reviews.lowes.com/0534/1080473/reviews.htm



I don't see any regular electric water heaters at the energy star website.  What make/model is yours?


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## Jaugust124 (Nov 29, 2011)

I'm usually over with the wood stove crowd, but once in awhile I jump over here to the darkside when I see something interesting.  Great conversation going on here.  In my quick look at this thread I don't think I saw anyone mention the new hybrid electric hot water heaters.  I've been contemplating installing one instead of using the oil fired boiler to heat the hot water.  Here are a couple links if anyone's interested:

http://www.hotwater.com/water-heaters/residential/hybrid/voltex/
http://www.geappliances.com/heat-pump-hot-water-heater/
http://www.rheem.com/products/tank_water_heaters/hybrid_electric/


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## BradH70 (Nov 29, 2011)

Jaugust124 said:
			
		

> I'm usually over with the wood stove crowd, but once in awhile I jump over here to the darkside when I see something interesting.  Great conversation going on here.  In my quick look at this thread I don't think I saw anyone mention the new hybrid electric hot water heaters.  I've been contemplating installing one instead of using the oil fired boiler to heat the hot water.  Here are a couple links if anyone's interested:
> 
> http://www.hotwater.com/water-heaters/residential/hybrid/voltex/
> http://www.geappliances.com/heat-pump-hot-water-heater/
> http://www.rheem.com/products/tank_water_heaters/hybrid_electric/



If Ed Begley, Jr is endorsing it then it must be good!

It seems that the Rheem gets a lot of bad reviews due to heat pump failure. I couldn't find many for the GE yet but still looking.

Seems like it would be the way to go, but also relatively new to the market. It would probably work well in my household since I am the only one that showers first thing in the morning. My wife is an evening showerer since she teaches fitness class during the day. This would give the system plenty of time to recover the water temp between showers. Otherwise it is just standard sink stuff, clothes washer and dish washer.


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## Jaugust124 (Nov 30, 2011)

If I recall correctly, some of these units have up to an 80 gallon storage tank.  I would think that they should be able to handle at least a couple showers in a row.  One of downsides to these units is the initial cost, but still far cheaper than solar and the payback is several years quicker.  Although, I guess the solar option would be a "greener" alternative.  Also, from what I have read, they can be a bit noisy and they can't be put into a confined space, like a closet, because they need the surrounding air to work properly.  They also need about 7ft. of height. I would first like to talk to a few people that own them or some installers to get the real facts on these things.  I know that in my area there are currently combined rebates of $700.  That makes it a bit more appealing.

By the way, Ed Begley is great.  He used to have a reality show on the Planet Green channel.  It was all about his life along with his wife and daughter.  It really concentrated on his efforts to be green, but the dynamics between him and his wife were quite funny.  They are in many ways complete opposites.


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## Regency139 (Nov 30, 2011)

Pro series 200 said:
			
		

> The good thing about electric water heaters is that they are 99% energy efficient,the bad thing is that electric is the most expensive and you are at the mercy of the giant power companies. In CT over 50% of our power comes from oil fired and natural gas fired generators,so you can expect to pay more every year.



http://www.wtnh.com/dpp/news/politics/conn.-oks-lower-electric-rates-as-gas-prices-fall


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## briansol (Nov 30, 2011)

whit said:
			
		

> briansol said:
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The power price is rediculous.  I pay .0895 per killowatt here.

That easily drops the break even point well down into the mid-3's, which is at/below where oil is currently priced.


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## maple1 (Nov 30, 2011)

Jaugust124 said:
			
		

> I'm usually over with the wood stove crowd, but once in awhile I jump over here to the darkside when I see something interesting.  Great conversation going on here.  In my quick look at this thread I don't think I saw anyone mention the new hybrid electric hot water heaters.  I've been contemplating installing one instead of using the oil fired boiler to heat the hot water.  Here are a couple links if anyone's interested:
> 
> http://www.hotwater.com/water-heaters/residential/hybrid/voltex/
> http://www.geappliances.com/heat-pump-hot-water-heater/
> http://www.rheem.com/products/tank_water_heaters/hybrid_electric/



Post 43 - Geyser - should be even better than a hybrid heater. Use your existing heater & put the heat pump where it fits the best. These types of water heaters should be everywhere.


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## maple1 (Nov 30, 2011)

briansol said:
			
		

> whit said:
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Power rates where I'm at are about the same as whits.


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## save$ (Nov 30, 2011)

Electric rates here in Central and Southern Maine are billed in two parts.  One by the provider and the other for the delivery.  Cmp is our delivery.   So combined, my cost last month was .143 per KWO.    Way too much for most heating.  I will put a space heater near my wife when she starts ranting that the temp has gone below 73F.  Sometimes I have run the furnace for back up, but a these high prices, I am trying to figure out which is less money.  Spot heating with space heater, or whole house with the furnace, both as backup.


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## Jaugust124 (Nov 30, 2011)

Last electric bill was $159.59 for two months with 950 kwh used.  That comes to 0.168 per kwh.  At 17 cents per kwh, an electric hot water heater would be out of the question. A hybrid might be worth considering.  At first glance, they seem like a tempting idea, but... how much will that new fangled contraption raise my electric bill?  Until someone can give me a realistic idea of what it will cost, I am staying in the "just thinking about it" mode.


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## TLHinCanada (Nov 30, 2011)

silverfox103 said:
			
		

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I have two houses they both have electric hot water heaters, with insulating blankets I have the timers run 8 hrs a day.  When I switched them over I saved 38.00 per bill.


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## silverfox103 (Nov 30, 2011)

TLHinCanada said:
			
		

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Just out of curiosity, what 8 hours per day do they run?

thanks

Tom


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## TLHinCanada (Nov 30, 2011)

6:30 to 12:30 I'm sorry after checking timer its 6 hrs a day.  No problem with running dishwasher or washing machine during evening.


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## save$ (Nov 30, 2011)

try this site for cost of hot water using electricity or gas:  http://waterheatertimer.org/How-much-does-it-cost-to-run-water-heater.html


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## BradH70 (Nov 30, 2011)

Thanks for link save$.

Using those figures and the electric rates were I live it would cost me $63.64/month or $763.76/year to run an electric DHW heater. Using a conservative .75 gallons of HHO per day @ $3.65/gallon to heat water it costs $83.26/month or $999.18/year to heat my DHW. If it turns out that an electric hot water heater ran for 4 hours a day, it would $19 more per year then oil.

At today's oil prices it would be pretty risky to spend the money on the electric water heater in hopes to save any money.


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## silverfox103 (Nov 30, 2011)

save$ said:
			
		

> try this site for cost of hot water using electricity or gas:  http://waterheatertimer.org/How-much-does-it-cost-to-run-water-heater.html



That is a great site!  If you have a question, you will find the answer there.

Tom C.


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