# Stupid Subaru commercial



## Ashful (Aug 27, 2019)

I ignored this campaign at first, but after several years, Subaru is still making new variants of their same old commercial.  The latest one states "92% still on the road after ten years".  I thought that was a strange thing to brag about, as the number sounded low to me, so I looked it up.

According to https://fortune.com/2018/01/09/most-kept-cars/, these are the models having the highest fraction of cars still on the road after 15 years:

Toyota Highlander
Toyota Sienna
Toyota Tundra
Toyota Prius
Toyota RAV4
Honda Odyssey
Toyota Sequoia
Toyota Tacoma
Honda CR-V
Toyota Avalon
Acura MDX
Toyota Camry
Subaru Forester
Literally, 8 of the top 10 are Toyota, with the remainder being Honda.  Zero Subaru's in the top ten, I had to scroll down to #13 to find even one model from Subaru on the list... and the next two are Volkswagon and Nissan.

Why would they repeatedly go back to the well of highlighting the number of cars they have on the road after "xx years", year after year, when they are so badly beaten by other brands on this metric?


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## MTY (Aug 27, 2019)

Because they believe the public is dumb.  They may be right.


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## begreen (Aug 28, 2019)

The Fortune article is about cars that people bought and are still driving them after 15 yrs. There is a difference between the most kept car and a car that is still on the road. Subaru states that a Polk poll found 94% of Subaru's made in the past 10 yrs are still on the road, but it doesn't say that the original owners kept them. I have no idea if this is so, but Subarus sure are popular out here.


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## PaulOinMA (Aug 28, 2019)

Lots of Subarus with VT plates here in New England.  Is it a state law or something that you must own at least one Subaru? 

Aside from being totaled in an accident, a car should easily last 10 years these days.


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## Ashful (Aug 28, 2019)

PaulOinMA said:


> Aside from being totaled in an accident, a car should easily last 10 years these days.



That was my point.  I cannot think of a car I would buy today, and not expect it to be on the road in ten years, whether I own it or not.   This statistic is more about the risk of the population owning these cars, than about any distinction in reliability.


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## PaulOinMA (Aug 28, 2019)

And cars are so much easier to maintain.  I still have my engine analyzer, timing light, spark plug cleaner, compression gauge, remote starter (not a fan of holding a screwdriver over terminals), and other things.


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## MTY (Aug 28, 2019)

Research the Boxer engine debacle ongoing with Subaru.  The original body may still be on the road, but many of the engines were junked.  They replaced the short block on our 2013 Forester at about 60K miles.  They pimp the reliabiltiy factor without giving the whole truth, because it works.  Because the public is either dumb or gullible.


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## blades (Aug 28, 2019)

just think PT Barnum.


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## PaulOinMA (Aug 28, 2019)

New Barnum biography recently released.  Neighbor in NC reviewed it in the spring.

I grew up a couple of towns north of Bridgeport, CT and never went to the Barnum museum.

https://barnum-museum.org/


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## peakbagger (Aug 28, 2019)

Subaru's for years were pretty well exclusive to Northern New England (Maine and VT). Unlike the other Japanese car makers, Subaru did not direct market their cars in the US, they sold them to an independent distributor Subaru of New England and the distributor sold them to dealers. They were regarded as VWs with heat. The first models were sold as 60,000 miles cars, run em for 4 or 5 years and drive them to the dump. They lived up to the rep, they rotted out just about the time the engine and clutch was going bad. I got pretty good at yanking Subaru engines on 5 plus year old Subaru's that folks where trying to get  few more years out of them. I still have the socket I ground down to get at the one tough to get at bellhousing bolt.  They got on the 4WD market early, hard to beat a part time 4WD Subaru in snow and still get reasonable mileage. I really hated it when they went to full time AWD as they were getting sued by stupid American drivers that didn't understand that the handling characteristics change when in front wheel drive compared to 4WD. The gas mileage plummeted and I lost interest in them once they dumped sticks and sold only automatics. I will take a front wheel drive standard car with a set of Nokias over a Subaru. To most folks 4wd means they can go faster in marginal traction conditions but unfortunately they don't stop any quicker so I see plenty of Subaru's off road in the ditch when their speed exceeded their traction.

Subaru's do seem to be generally reliable but when they do need major work they don't seem to be service friendly and not many general repair places work on them so in many cases the owners have to go to the dealers or specialists that snap them up at dealer auctions and mix and match parts to resell them. There was a run of Subaru's that had leaky head gaskets which required pulling the motor. They also like many companies uses a lot of proprietary software that is not readily accessible except by the dealer. My brother got hit for a $300 diagnostic charge just to hook into the car plus the hours to do the fix by a dealer. I will probably go Honda again when my fiesta dies since GM and Ford decided they do not need to sell small cars.

 Subaru was also actively marketing to the urban outdoor crowd. I dont see why anyone would want one in areas outside the snow belt as there are better offerings by Toyota, Honda and if you have a nearby dealer Mazda.


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## PaulOinMA (Aug 29, 2019)

So true.  Neighbors across the street moved to Finland.  I mentioned to our next-door neighbor that there was a Subaru with VT plates parked out front.  Think they were looking at the house.  Our neighbor said, "oh good.  No kids."


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## semipro (Aug 29, 2019)

tadmaz said:


> I have a friend that swears that 100% of the Subaru Baja owners he has met have been lesbian.  Without fail.


You scared me for a second there - I had the Baja's predecessor, the Brat.  I pulled the engine by hand once, no hoist or anything, small engine.  Of course I was in much better shape then. 
Interesting, the seats in the bed of the Brat were there for tax aversion purposes.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_BRAT


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## pjohnson (Aug 29, 2019)

I for one like my Subbie have had zero problems and snow tires all around will go thru snow up to the bumper.


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## firefighterjake (Sep 2, 2019)

Random thoughts . . .

My wife had an issue with the infamous head gaskets in her 2003 Legacy Outback sedan. But she loved Subaru so much that she ended up buying a 2015 Legacy (although she tells me she still misses the size and handling of that 2003 car despite the fact that it got lousy gas mileage and rode like a tank.) Her 2015 Legacy is a nice all season cruiser -- rides quite smoothly, has enough zip for our needs and goes well in the snow (plus gets around 30 mph -- which is not as good as some comparable sedans, but then again . . . AWD in a sedan form.)

I have a 2015 WRX. It's pretty close to the ideal car for me. It's not the best at anything -- not the fastest, best looking, etc., but it's sporty enough and I can drive it year round in pretty much any weather once I throw the snow tires on it.

Time will tell if Subaru licked the head gasket issue with their latest engine reincarnations . . . until then I will say doing routine oil changes is so stupid easy that I still am shocked that folks continue to have the dealer do them. Previous vehicles required me to remove skid pans or contort myself into various positions from above, below or through the wheel well to get to the oil filter and oil pan . . . these cars have the filter sitting right on top.

I miss the ol' Subarus with their part time AWD as well . . . although the Subaru GL I had (I called it the Hershey bar since it looked like a half melted Hershey chocolate bar) was pretty much gutless. It required multiple shifting to get up any hill of significance.

A few Subarus continue to have stick shifts . . . although like most manufacturers these days it is getting harder and harder to find one. With the exception of the WRX and STI, the few remaining vehicles with manual transmissions like the Impreza, Forester and Crosstrek tend to be the base models.


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## DickRussell (Sep 2, 2019)

My wife's 2012 Forester had the engine block replaced at 80K, due to the excessive oil consumption issue. Otherwise it's been fine. I went from FWD (2003 Dodge Neon) to an AWD Imprezza in 2015, and I like it very much. AWD is a vast improvement in snow where I live (some hills getting to/from the paved/treated roads). I got it with the CVT automatic, as the EPA city/hwy mileage numbers were 3 mpg better than for the 5-speed manual, and I believe that. Highway is 37 mpg, and I regularly get that in warm weather. Best has been 42 on a long highway trip. Cruising at constant 65 over level road, the tach shows only 1900 rpm; it's like having overdrive. I guess time will tell if the transmission holds up as the miles pile up.


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## Ashful (Sep 2, 2019)

DickRussell said:


> My wife's 2012 Forester had the engine block replaced at 80K, due to the excessive oil consumption issue. Otherwise it's been fine.


Holy crap!  "Other than that brain transplant, I'm in perfect health!"


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## lsucet (Sep 3, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Holy crap!  "Other than that brain transplant, I'm in perfect health!"


I will not get alarmed on that. Very common to see engines going out early. Hemi, any of them, goes out cause of lifters and camshaft. Some damaged the lifters bore and need a long block. Cop cars are the worse. Normal consumer cars are less but still. 
About oil consumption, many of these newer engines on small cars are having the issues. To the points, manufactures are calling normal a QT low every 2000 to 3000 miles.


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## peakbagger (Sep 3, 2019)

lsucet said:


> I will not get alarmed on that. Very common to see engines going out early. Hemi, any of them, goes out cause of lifters and camshaft. Some damaged the lifters bore and need a long block. Cop cars are the worse. Normal consumer cars are less but still.
> About oil consumption, many of these newer engines on small cars are having the issues. To the points, manufactures are calling normal a QT low every 2000 to 3000 miles.



Interesting, on occasion I am involved with big lean burn/high compression natural gas stationary engine/generators (3 MW range) and the clients are always surprised that they burn enough engine oil that there is an automated oil makeup system and tank that needs to be filled routinely.


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## lsucet (Sep 3, 2019)

With all the vvt and cam phasers and high compression ratios, that is the reasons for oil consumption. To many parts/mechanism to cool down and to operate = oil consumption. We are going forward on some areas but backwards on others.


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## Highbeam (Sep 3, 2019)

lsucet said:


> With all the vvt and cam phasers and high compression ratios, that is the reasons for oil consumption. To many parts/mechanism to cool down and to operate = oil consumption. We are going forward on some areas but backwards on others.



Do you think the very thin new oils are contributing? I just put 0w20 in he wife’s Nissan! Sloshed around like a jug of water.

Thank goodness timing belts are much less common since mid 2000s. Cheaper to build but   more to maintain.


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## peakbagger (Sep 3, 2019)

Like Highbeam,  IMHO, for fuel economy the required viscosities are getting quite low and this could contribute to oil usage. I remember a friend with Mazda rotary went through a quart every 1000 miles, he was told that that was normal.


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## lsucet (Sep 3, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> Do you think the very thin new oils are contributing? I just put 0w20 in he wife’s Nissan! Sloshed around like a jug of water.
> 
> Thank goodness timing belts are much less common since mid 2000s. Cheaper to build but   more to maintain.


Everything plays a big role and I am sure it is part of it but we have application with 5w40, 5w20, 0w20, 10w30 and they all have some kind of oil consumptions, ones more than others but still.


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## semipro (Sep 3, 2019)

lsucet said:


> Everything plays a big role and I am sure it is part of it but we have application with 5w40, 5w20, 0w20, 10w30 and they all have some kind of oil consumptions, ones more than others but still.


Dynamic seals like piston rings, valve stem seals, and rotor wipers are prone to leakage.  They also create friction which hurts efficiency.  I'd guess the automakers are sacrificing lubricating oil to make overall efficiency gains by decreasing seal forces and oil viscosity. 
The sticker on the windows of new cars lists estimated fuel mileage among other things - no mention of expected oil consumption.  - buyer beware.


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## lsucet (Sep 3, 2019)

semipro said:


> Dynamic seals like piston rings, valve stem seals, and rotor wipers are prone to leakage.  They also create friction which hurts efficiency.  I'd guess the automakers are sacrificing lubricating oil to make overall efficiency gains by decreasing seal forces and oil viscosity.
> The sticker on the windows of new cars lists estimated fuel mileage among other things - no mention of expected oil consumption.  - buyer beware.


Many variables causing oil consumption now a days. One that is overlooked is, driver habits. That is a big influence too. Climate etc. Most of modern cars have more than just traditional lubrications that we all know. Many system like multi air for an example, use oil to open intake valves. At same time is cooling and lubricating. It is normal to have some losses there


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## peakbagger (Sep 3, 2019)

Reminds me of friend in high school. he had a big old chevy impala sized for a big block equipped with a small block. The radiator fan shroud must have been a foot long. There was enough room behind the headlights on the fenderwells to hold a case of oil on each side which was good thing as he went through a quart every fill up. He bought some brand of cheap motor oil that basically was used motor oil filtered to remove the big stuff with an additive package mixed back in. It ended up wrapped around a phone pole but he got a summer off it.


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## SpaceBus (Sep 3, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> Like Highbeam,  IMHO, for fuel economy the required viscosities are getting quite low and this could contribute to oil usage. I remember a friend with Mazda rotary went through a quart every 1000 miles, he was told that that was normal.


Because rotary, actually Wankel, engines consume oil like a two stroke. It's a total loss lubrication system. Oil is injected with the intake charge and then lubricates the rotor and housing. For once the dealer was being honest.


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## MTY (Sep 4, 2019)

The Boxer engine debacle is more than a head gasket issue, has gone on for many years, and Subaru did as much as it could to not address the issue for as long as they could. 

Our 2013 Forester was serviced at a local shop.  I only touch what I drive, so someone else services the Subaru.  A short time after a LOF service the oil pressure light came on.  It was extremely low on oil.  The dealer blamed the shop that serviced it knowing the oil issue was a major fault with the engine in the Forester.  The wife had Subaru change the oil and swore off ever using the shop that had done the LOF. 

We took off for South Dakota.  After a number of fill ups I started getting nervous.  I asked when the oil had been checked last, and was told the Subaru dealer did it just prior to us leaving on the trip.  We were at a small service station on the Pine Ridge Res when I said I could not stand it any more and was checking the oil.  The oil did not reach the end of the dipstick. 

I bought all the quarts of oil they had at the station and dumped it in until we got home.  The next day I went to see the dealer.  The Subaru dealer said they had to do an oil change and seal the engine so that could measure consumption over 3000 miles. 

I have no idea what they meant by sealing the engine, but I checked the oil level at less than 1000 miles and called the dealer to ask if they wanted to check consumption early or wanted me to call when the engine siezed. 

During this fiasco I started researching online.  Subaru's official policy was to deny, deny, deny.

Long story short, the Forester received a new short block at 60K, and the shop that Subaru blamed for the lack of oil initially is back doing the service work.


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## SpaceBus (Sep 4, 2019)

Subaru for the longest time just used the same engine in every car with a few tweaks, except for the six cylinders of course. The FA20, the new 2.0 liter flat four, seems to be pretty great in turbo and naturally aspirated forms. The old EJ series were pretty problem prone and also use timing belts. They don't use timing belts because they are cheaper to build either, it's actually more difficult and more expensive to design and build engines that use timing belts. With the exception of the eventual replacement, timing belts are generally better. 

The oil consumption could be a lot of things. Nissan had many oil consumption issues with the 3.5 liter VQ series engines. There are thousands and thousands of GM 5.3 liter V8 engines with loads of piston slap and heavy oil consumption. Ford has had several debacles with engine and transmission suppliers. I think consumer demands have outpaced affordable production.


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## Ashful (Sep 4, 2019)

MTY said:


> The Boxer engine debacle is more than a head gasket issue, has gone on for many years, and Subaru did as much as it could to not address the issue for as long as they could.
> 
> Our 2013 Forester was serviced at a local shop.  I only touch what I drive, so someone else services the Subaru.  A short time after a LOF service the oil pressure light came on.  It was extremely low on oil.  The dealer blamed the shop that serviced it knowing the oil issue was a major fault with the engine in the Forester.  The wife had Subaru change the oil and swore off ever using the shop that had done the LOF.
> 
> ...


I see more stories like this associated with Subaru than any other brand.  Yet they have die-hard fans.  I really don't get it.


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## SpaceBus (Sep 4, 2019)

Ashful said:


> I see more stories like this associated with Subaru than any other brand.  Yet they have die-hard fans.  I really don't get it.



It's just like the way you keep buying trucks that rust out after a few years. Subarus are great for places with bad roads (New England) that often have poor driving conditions. Like others have said, AWD just gets most folks into trouble, but it has some benefits. Of special note are the turbocharged models like the Forester XT, Baja Turbo, WRX/STI, and Outback/Legacy XT. The Subaru Baja Turbo is on my short list of favorite cars, but they are usually beat to hell and need total restorations.


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## Ashful (Sep 4, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> It's just like the way you keep buying trucks that rust out after a few years. Subarus are great for places with bad roads (New England) that often have poor driving conditions. Like others have said, AWD just gets most folks into trouble, but it has some benefits. Of special note are the turbocharged models like the Forester XT, Baja Turbo, WRX/STI, and Outback/Legacy XT. The Subaru Baja Turbo is on my short list of favorite cars, but they are usually beat to hell and need total restorations.



...except my trucks don’t rust out after a few years.  Last one was kept 12 years, driven almost exclusively in snow and rain, sat without getting driven to dry it out any time it was sunny, was stored outside in the shade, and was only starting to show the faint orange hue of rust at the fenders and door corners when I traded it in after 12 years.  That’s not bad, way better than my sister’s Subaru!


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## SpaceBus (Sep 4, 2019)

Ashful said:


> ...except my trucks don’t rust out after a few years.  Last one was kept 12 years, driven almost exclusively in snow and rain, sat without getting driven to dry it out any time it was sunny, was stored outside in the shade, and was only starting to show the faint orange hue of rust at the fenders and door corners when I traded it in after 12 years.  That’s not bad, way better than my sister’s Subaru!



That's unacceptable, my old landlord's 85 Ram still runs with minimal surface rust and stored in a field for the last 15 years. All jokes aside, every manufacturer has issues. My wife's Fiat is made with fragile components and the heated and power seats in my ram don't work. There are thousands and thousands of Hemi engines with issues. You don't need a good education to build cars in a factory.


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## Ashful (Sep 4, 2019)

I think that overall, quality across the board is vastly better than at any time in the last.  The old over-built hulks we called pickup trucks 40 years ago were certainly heavier on steel, and easier to repair without specialized tools and parts, but that didn’t make them reliable.  I would t hold Fiat up as any measure of modern quality, even though one of my cars was technically built by FCA.


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## SpaceBus (Sep 4, 2019)

The issue is the stuff suspension on the Fiat, a regular 500 would probably be fine.


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## MTY (Sep 4, 2019)

Still driving the F250 I bought in 1979.  The rear fender wells are starting to show rust.


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## Ashful (Sep 4, 2019)

MTY said:


> Still driving the F250 I bought in 1979.  The rear fender wells are starting to show rust.


That is astounding.  I owned a 1978 Ford in the 1990's, and I could almost hear it rust while sitting in a dry garage.  Honestly, I have never seen any vehicle rust like that thing, it kept my angle grinder and body work tools very busy, constantly cutting away the cancer.  I was always told by body shop guys that those were some of the worst bodies Ford ever built.

I loved that truck, but hated the rust.


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## MTY (Sep 4, 2019)

Ashful said:


> That is astounding.  I owned a 1978 Ford in the 1990's, and I could almost hear it rust while sitting in a dry garage.  Honestly, I have never seen any vehicle rust like that thing, it kept my angle grinder and body work tools very busy, constantly cutting away the cancer.  I was always told by body shop guys that those were some of the worst bodies Ford ever built.
> 
> I loved that truck, but hated the rust.


Sand is used instead of salt in the winter around here.  Mag chloride has been used the last 15 years or so.


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## lsucet (Sep 4, 2019)

You all can keep the cars, I will keep my horses. 

I left behind when came to the States a 1956 Oldsmobile ninety eight model with the rocket engine and the hydro matic jet away transmission. A cousin still have it and it is original, no mods.

My brother left a 1956 Mercury Monterey four door no columns automatic with the Mercomatic and we had at that time a 1955 two doors crown Vic that I was rebuilding the engine and transmission to then send it to get painted black when we left. My sister sold it after we left. Sometimes I missed those cars, God is a witness.


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## begreen (Sep 5, 2019)

MTY said:


> Sand is used instead of salt in the winter around here.  Mag chloride has been used the last 15 years or so.


So glad we don't have that issue. I would never own a car from the east now.


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## SpaceBus (Sep 5, 2019)

begreen said:


> So glad we don't have that issue. I would never own a car from the east now.



This is the truth! I made sure my truck came from somewhere without road salt.


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## peakbagger (Sep 5, 2019)

The problem with brining a vehicle from areas with no road salt is they seem to try to make up for years of no rust by rusting out quickly once they get up here. Someone speculated that the warm temps stiffen up the underbody sealants and then cracks form in the sealants and the deicing chemicals get in there and start rot quick. 

I have an 1987 Bronco I have been slowly working to get back on the road. I was parked in 2000 and was in covered storage since then. It has very little underbody rust and the front fenders and doors are mint except for one fender lip. I had the body off the frame to repair the frame so I spent a lot of time under the body. The only real rot was the rear corners and there was enough left to salvage. Most of the rot points are crappy design. Lots of sheet metal screws poke through the underbody to hold various trims in place and in many cases I find a ring of rust where the screw goes through the body. There are also spot welded panel seams that have thin lines of rust between the panels. Spot weld seams tend to flex a bit over the years and the result is that whatever coating was applied tends to wear out and attract rust. Of course the rear tailgate is toast, someone started a patch job but I am tempted to buy a new tailgate shell and start over. The frame rot was just crappy design, salt gets under the body mounts and slowly eats them away. I just cut out the rot and put in new steel and mounts then blasted and painted the frame with POR. While the body was off I put in plastic fuel tank, it already has plastic fuel lines  and redid all the brake lines with copper nickel so hopefully it will hold up to rot. I am using POR where I need to and then plan to try Fluid Film for undercoating.  Hopefully I get several years off it when it gets back on the road.


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## SpaceBus (Sep 5, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> The problem with brining a vehicle from areas with no road salt is they seem to try to make up for years of no rust by rusting out quickly once they get up here. Someone speculated that the warm temps stiffen up the underbody sealants and then cracks form in the sealants and the deicing chemicals get in there and start rot quick.
> 
> I have an 1987 Bronco I have been slowly working to get back on the road. I was parked in 2000 and was in covered storage since then. It has very little underbody rust and the front fenders and doors are mint except for one fender lip. I had the body off the frame to repair the frame so I spent a lot of time under the body. The only real rot was the rear corners and there was enough left to salvage. Most of the rot points are crappy design. Lots of sheet metal screws poke through the underbody to hold various trims in place and in many cases I find a ring of rust where the screw goes through the body. There are also spot welded panel seams that have thin lines of rust between the panels. Spot weld seams tend to flex a bit over the years and the result is that whatever coating was applied tends to wear out and attract rust. Of course the rear tailgate is toast, someone started a patch job but I am tempted to buy a new tailgate shell and start over. The frame rot was just crappy design, salt gets under the body mounts and slowly eats them away. I just cut out the rot and put in new steel and mounts then blasted and painted the frame with POR. While the body was off I put in plastic fuel tank, it already has plastic fuel lines  and redid all the brake lines with copper nickel so hopefully it will hold up to rot. I am using POR where I need to and then plan to try Fluid Film for undercoating.  Hopefully I get several years off it when it gets back on the road.



I want to try fluid film for this coming winter, I'll share my findings next summer.


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## sloeffle (Sep 5, 2019)

My brother has a couple Sube's and thinks they are the greatest thing since slice bread. A buddy of mine has had a ton of them and said that they require a lot of maintenance. His latest Sube recently ate a turbo at around 80k. Luckily he was able to shut the car off before any major damage was done. My wife had one for a rental recently and she said she'd take her 10 year old Toyota over it. It sounded like it was a stripped down model though.

Personally I'll stick with Toyota, and Honda for my cars, and GM products for my trucks.


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## lsucet (Sep 5, 2019)

After working for automotive industry many years plus knowing people and friends working for different brands, they all have issues. You can find good and bad stories from any brand and it come down to what you like and you want to be loyal to.

Many people are the cause of why a car is not reliable cause of the way they treated it and blame the car/brand etc. That is overlooked every day and in many conversations. Some people can  kill any car regardless.
At the end of the day they all have Recalls, TSB, computer flashes and part failure. Some people put more stress on theirs cars than others cause their style of life etc.

Every dealer you go will be full of cars in the shop regardless which brand. You go figure.


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## Ashful (Sep 5, 2019)

begreen said:


> So glad we don't have that issue. I would never own a car from the east now.



Hmm... I didn’t know we were the only ones singled out for this, I just figured everyone around our latitude dealt with the same.  Around here, the amount of salt on the roads has increased almost exponentially, to the point where many of us wonder if the salt suppliers are incentivizing the townships to use more product.  Sometimes we have piles of rock salt on our roads more than an inch deep, it’s almost like driving on gravel.  It prevents one from driving any car they care about for weeks after a winter storm, in some cases.

Prep’ing the roads with brine has become standard prep before every forecast storm, as well.  It works nicely, but there are many rumors that the chemical used in this brine are even more corrosive than rock salt.


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## tadmaz (Sep 5, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Hmm... I didn’t know we were the only ones singled out for this, I just figured everyone around our latitude dealt with the same.  Around here, the amount of salt on the roads has increased almost exponentially, to the point where many of us wonder if the salt suppliers are incentivizing the townships to use more product.  Sometimes we have piles of rock salt on our roads more than an inch deep, it’s almost like driving on gravel.  It prevents one from driving any car they care about for weeks after a winter storm, in some cases.
> 
> Prep’ing the roads with brine has become standard prep before every forecast storm, as well.  It works nicely, but there are many rumors that the chemical used in this brine are even more corrosive than rock salt.


Agreed, there are plenty of "rust belt" states, and I can vouch for Wisconsin and Illinois being car killer states.


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## firefighterjake (Sep 5, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I want to try fluid film for this coming winter, I'll share my findings next summer.



Our mechanic at work treats all the trucks with Fluid Film . . . actually seems to do a good job as you can see a difference in the trucks that he has done it on since Year 1 vs. other trucks . . . but it stinks like a sheep's butt.


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## begreen (Sep 6, 2019)

tadmaz said:


> Agreed, there are plenty of "rust belt" states, and I can vouch for Wisconsin and Illinois being car killer states.


Not much road salt used west of the Cascades in spite of our latitude being the same as Maine. Not much snow falls here. They do sand steep hills locally. Up in the passes they do use deicer.


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## Ashful (Sep 6, 2019)

I always thought the “Rust Belt” referred to now-defunct heavy manufacturing areas, like my home town.  Steel was king here, when I was a kid, Bethlehem Steel.

Have I had it wrong, all these decades?


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## SpaceBus (Sep 6, 2019)

Ashful said:


> I always thought the “Rust Belt” referred to now-defunct heavy manufacturing areas, like my home town.  Steel was king here, when I was a kid, Bethlehem Steel.
> 
> Have I had it wrong, all these decades?



Don't worry, I find this happening to myself as well.


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## tadmaz (Sep 6, 2019)

Ashful said:


> I always thought the “Rust Belt” referred to now-defunct heavy manufacturing areas, like my home town.  Steel was king here, when I was a kid, Bethlehem Steel.
> 
> Have I had it wrong, all these decades?


No, I guess I have it wrong.  But I like my definition of rust belt better.


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## Highbeam (Sep 6, 2019)

begreen said:


> Not much road salt used west of the Cascades in spite of our latitude being the same as Maine. Not much snow falls here. They do sand steep hills locally. Up in the passes they do use deicer.



Once you get out of the city there is a lot of salt used in western Washington. Mag chloride, calcium chloride are both salt water or brine, then the local boys also dump tons of plain old rock salt on my street. It’s so bad that chrome wheels are peeling and fender well rust is common now. All in the name of safety and a cya mentality. 

I’m sure it’s worse in the rust belt but to get a nonsalt car you really need to look south like Arizona!


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## begreen (Sep 7, 2019)

King County must be cheap. We are way out of the city, but they only sand the main roads and only when they absolutely must.


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## Highbeam (Sep 12, 2019)

begreen said:


> King County must be cheap. We are way out of the city, but they only sand the main roads and only when they absolutely must.



We don't even get sand anymore. Straight to rock salt or brine. I'm out of the city limits in east Pierce.

My 4" aluminized steel exhaust pipe rusted a hole in it this year. That's never happened before. The rest of the rust belt probably is familiar with replacing exhaust systems. I would hate to think that I need to monitor my brake lines too!


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## Ashful (Sep 12, 2019)

I’ve lost many brake lines on 1990’s and earlier trucks.  Fuel lines, too.  But that seems to happen less on anything newer, I suspect the materials and coatings have improved.


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## peakbagger (Sep 12, 2019)

I am replacing any steel brakeline I run into with copper nickel. It seems to hold up to brew they are using on winter roads.


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## Ashful (Sep 12, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> I am replacing any steel brakeline I run into with copper nickel. It seems to hold up to brew they are using on winter roads.


Why not stainless?  That's what most guys I know seem to be using, here.


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## peakbagger (Sep 13, 2019)

Copper nickel is a lot easier to work with,,may not be as pretty as stainless but it can be bent by hand or with a tool and it flares a lot easier.  Also its less prone to cracking from vibration. Stainless pretty well needs to be bent prior to installation, fine if you are building a hot rod but not so fine if you are trying to replace a line that needs to be threaded around an engine, an exhaust and frame rail. On one recent replacement if I had used stainless I would have needed 3 unions and bent three pieces of tube which means 5 flares, with CuNi I flared on end then pulled the other end in through a hole in the fender well and slowly fed it where it needed to go, then formed the bends by hand so it fit in the intended location then flared the other end under the truck and screwed it in. Not as pretty and shiny but I really do not care what it looks like where it went.

Stainless is difficult to flare, many flaring tools are not rated for stainless and on occasion the flare seat cracks. Its not easy to see and will mate up but it will eventually leak. There are special flaring jigs that will work but the are quite expensive. Its pretty rare to see flared stainless in industry, almost every piece of stainless tubing used ferrule type fittings due to the potential for flare cracks. Ferrule fittings are nice but take up a lot of room.


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## SpaceBus (Sep 14, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> Copper nickel is a lot easier to work with,,may not be as pretty as stainless but it can be bent by hand or with a tool and it flares a lot easier.  Also its less prone to cracking from vibration. Stainless pretty well needs to be bent prior to installation, fine if you are building a hot rod but not so fine if you are trying to replace a line that needs to be threaded around an engine, an exhaust and frame rail. On one recent replacement if I had used stainless I would have needed 3 unions and bent three pieces of tube which means 5 flares, with CuNi I flared on end then pulled the other end in through a hole in the fender well and slowly fed it where it needed to go, then formed the bends by hand so it fit in the intended location then flared the other end under the truck and screwed it in. Not as pretty and shiny but I really do not care what it looks like where it went.
> 
> Stainless is difficult to flare, many flaring tools are not rated for stainless and on occasion the flare seat cracks. Its not easy to see and will mate up but it will eventually leak. There are special flaring jigs that will work but the are quite expensive. Its pretty rare to see flared stainless in industry, almost every piece of stainless tubing used ferrule type fittings due to the potential for flare cracks. Ferrule fittings are nice but take up a lot of room.


If I had an ultimate budget stainless braided lines would be run from MC to caliper. Obviously my budget is not unlimited (Edit: this is a terrible idea) so good tip on the CuNi. I've had my fair share of dealing with brake lines and flaring on the vehicle.


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## Ashful (Sep 14, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> If I had an ultimate budget stainless braided lines would be run from MC to caliper.


Wouldn’t that make for spongy brakes?  Stainless braided is better than other soft line types, but I have to imagine it’s nowhere near as good as hard line.


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## SpaceBus (Sep 14, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Wouldn’t that make for spongy brakes?  Stainless braided is better than other soft line types, but I have to imagine it’s nowhere near as good as hard line.


I don't think it is any different than hard line for expansion, but I've been wrong many times before.

Edit: you are right, that would be garbage.


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## begreen (Sep 14, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Wouldn’t that make for spongy brakes?  Stainless braided is better than other soft line types, but I have to imagine it’s nowhere near as good as hard line.


After having a stainless braided supply line on our HW heater spring a leak after just 3 years in service I am leary of that option.


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## SpaceBus (Sep 14, 2019)

begreen said:


> After having a stainless braided supply line on our HW heater spring a leak after just 3 years in service I am leary of that option.



I'm pretty sure the stainless flex lines for domestic plumbing and brake lines are a bit different. Did your HW heater line have a sheath around the stainless?


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## begreen (Sep 14, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> Did your HW heater line have a sheath around the stainless?


Stainless braiding. This is a much lower pressure application and perhaps different construction?


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## begreen (Sep 14, 2019)

Or maybe not?!


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## SpaceBus (Sep 14, 2019)

begreen said:


> Or maybe not?!



I would not recommend, but I think you wouldn't try anyway. I've never seen automotive stainless braided brake hose without a nylon sheath. I had purple ones on my LJ Wrangler


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## begreen (Sep 15, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I would not recommend, but I think you wouldn't try anyway. I've never seen automotive stainless braided brake hose without a nylon sheath. I had purple ones on my LJ Wrangler


I think I will just continue to avoid road salt.


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## bholler (Sep 16, 2019)

Ashful said:


> I’ve lost many brake lines on 1990’s and earlier trucks.  Fuel lines, too.  But that seems to happen less on anything newer, I suspect the materials and coatings have improved.


You obviously havnt owned and gm trucks since then.  They have major rust issues with brake and fuel lines.    I have been replacing with stainless for years now.  Yes you need a different flaring tool but it isn't a big deal.  Actually lately I just buy a full prebent stainless set when ever I start to see rust on lines.  Trans cooler lines are a big problem also.


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## Ashful (Sep 16, 2019)

bholler said:


> You obviously havnt owned and gm trucks since then.  They have major rust issues with brake and fuel lines.    I have been replacing with stainless for years now.  Yes you need a different flaring tool but it isn't a big deal.  Actually lately I just buy a full prebent stainless set when ever I start to see rust on lines.  Trans cooler lines are a big problem also.


That is correct.  I dropped GM in the early 2000's, when they stopped offering a manual transmission in their 1500's.  I switched to Dodge, and was really not happy to be making the switch, but it was what I had to do to buy a manual trans in a new truck at the time.  I have to admit I was wrong in my anticipation of poor reliability from Dodge, though... the two Dodge trucks and one Dodge car I have owned over the last 15 years have been infinitely more reliable than any GM product I ever owned.


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## SpaceBus (Sep 16, 2019)

Ashful said:


> That is correct.  I dropped GM in the early 2000's, when they stopped offering a manual transmission in their 1500's.  I switched to Dodge, and was really not happy to be making the switch, but it was what I had to do to buy a manual trans in a new truck at the time.  I have to admit I was wrong in my anticipation of poor reliability from Dodge, though... the two Dodge trucks and one Dodge car I have owned over the last 15 years have been infinitely more reliable than any GM product I ever owned.


To be fair vehicles have changed dramatically in the last fifteen years.


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## Ashful (Sep 16, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> To be fair vehicles have changed dramatically in the last fifteen years.



Agreed.  Re-read posts #55 and #68.


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## billb3 (Oct 20, 2019)

Investigate the hours of TV watching per country and the obesity problem per country some time.


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## MTY (Oct 20, 2019)

billb3 said:


> Investigate the hours of TV watching per country and the obesity problem per country some time.


I would, but all my spare time is taken up  watching Daisy Duke reruns and eating Cheetos.


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## Zack R (Oct 21, 2019)

LOL at engine block replacement at 80k miles. The old 94'  land cruiser is still on its original engine at 320k miles and doesn't skip a beat. Frequent oil changes and regular maintenance are key....  went on a 2500 mile road trip in July, had one issue, a burned out headlight bulb.


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## Sodbuster (Dec 5, 2019)

PaulOinMA said:


> Lots of Subarus with VT plates here in New England.  Is it a state law or something that you must own at least one Subaru?
> 
> Aside from being totaled in an accident, a car should easily last 10 years these days.



My wifes 2010 Camry is still running like it was new with 180,000 mi on it.


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