# E Classic 2400 Probs



## The Weimar (Dec 23, 2014)

Hello, Any one having any issues with their Central Boiler product? I don't necessarily mean hardware, it can be problems with warranty, CB service or your dealers service. I have an E Classic 2400 that worked really well for 1 year, and then the gremlins started. First, the Firestar controller 'died', as in it only flashed its many lights at me and did not do any controlling. CB's warranty process for this is not a friendly one, as they want the consumer to pay for the new controller, including the shipping, and then after they determine that the controller is bad, they reimburse. My local dealer was nice enough to absorb that cost for me, but they still had to pay for an item that is covered.
    Second prob: I have a leak! Yes, a firebox leak that is letting water from the jacket into the firebox. I noticed a lot of steam coming out the chimney last week, wouldn't build the temp like usual, and then the low water alarm. I went inside looking and found wet ashes which when removed showed the leak. It is in the floor of the firebox, to the left of the charge tube, closest to the door. I heat my home with this and right now, I am not. 
Just wondering what your opinion is as to how long this 'warranty' repair will take? 1 day, week, month? These guys may send me a bill for this work, I wouldn't be surprised. When it works, it works great, but I didn't realize that the amount of repairs to it were going to be like working on a helicopter, with about the same customer service and availability as if it was a Russian chopper.
    Any thoughts?

The Weimar


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2014)

You could try pouring a few bottles of boiler stop leak into the system to see if it will stop the leak while you wait on the repair, which I certainly hope is under warranty. (Those things are designed to start leaking _after_ the warranty is up). The stuff works pretty well when it works. Find it at any plumbing/heating outlet, or in selected Big Box stores.


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## stee6043 (Dec 24, 2014)

When the eClassic was brand new there were a few folks around here that had some problems getting it to run properly but I don't recall hearing any complaints about leaks.  I know plenty of folks that have had CB's for 10+ years without leaks.  I hope they take care of you...


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## Clarkbug (Dec 24, 2014)

Talk to your dealer and see what they have to say.


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## The Weimar (Dec 26, 2014)

The Drama begins, boys....  So I shut her down, only to find a horizontal geyser coming out of a filler plate right under the door. No wonder there was steam coming out of the chimney! have posted some pics for your enjoyment.  I think the photos clearly show that the firebox/water jacket has a leak, yes?  CB service gent responds to my local dealer that there must be a full inspection done to see if there are more problems. He also states that if a field repair can be made, CB would cover up to $150 of it.....hows that for a warranty?  I am a project manager for a construction co and I hire welders on a weekly basis. I can tell you, $150 is usually an hourly charge. I did some inspecting and it seems as though the steel in that area just failed....3 inches either way is fine, the welds all around it are like new.  Once again, the unit itself has been for the most part great, and I understand that stuff happens but, the customer service/warranty service from Central Boiler just plain stinks.  Feel free to comment, I would really like to hear what you have to say. I'm not from Minnesota but are things really inexpensive there, or are the people just plain cheap?


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## Fred61 (Dec 26, 2014)

They will test the water and find inadequate chemicals in it now that it has been diluted and refuse to give you that generous  $150.00. And the winner is - -- - - - - - ???????????


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## Clarkbug (Dec 26, 2014)

Did they say what they would do if you cant fix it in the field?  $150 is nowhere near what I would think it costs to get that fixed...


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## atvalaska (Dec 26, 2014)

dammmm


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## cityboy172 (Dec 26, 2014)

1. Get it fixed yourself. 
2. Make sure they grind everything real smooth. 
3. Burn the rest of the season. 
4. 4-sale in the spring- lightly used. 
5. Buy indoor gasser and storage. 
6. ???? 
7. Profit.


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## maple1 (Dec 27, 2014)

That's harsh - hope you get something sorted out.

How old is it? I see mention above on problems starting after year one, but not sure how old it is.

If you can't get any satisfaction from/through the dealer, you'd likely just have to do what you can to get fixed, thoroughly document everything, then go after cb & hope for the best. You're pretty well at the mercy of the weather with the timing, unfortunately.


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## flyingcow (Dec 27, 2014)

That sucks. If everything else fails, maybe look into your homeowners ins? Long shot? yes. but it doesn't hurt to try.


Be nice to get most of your cost back, hard to recover from that.


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## cityboy172 (Dec 27, 2014)

Are the central boiler gassifiers pressurized?


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## The Weimar (Dec 27, 2014)

Hi Guys, just to clarify, I bought the furnace on November 14, 2013 and fired it up on Thanksgiving and it ran awesome. House and garage at 72 and zero oil burnt. Oct 2014 comes around and after a thorough cleaning of everything AND a re-calibration of the chemicals in the water, we light her up. Well, doesn't the Firestar controller not 'fire up'. It just beeps and blinks uncontrollably at me. I remove it and drive the 60 mile round trip to my dealer, who is nice enough to absorb the cost of the controller (thats right, CB charges for it and then reimburses you after they determine that the unit failed), I install the new one and off we go.  Running great and then I notice steam coming out the chimney and it won't build temp above 725 degrees (it usually hits 1250-1300). Upon investigation I find what you see in the pics. Now CB either wants the unit back or $150 towards the repair. Neither one of those ideas are realistic 'WARRANTY' options, yes? 
I spent 2 hours this morning cleaning other sites inside the fire box just to see if it is the whole unit or just in the front. Check the pics and you make your own assumptions.


  shows how deteriorated the steel plate is; I'm using a hacksaw blade for a straight edge. Definitely didn't rot through from the water side,eh?




2. You can see how the steel has almost 'worn' away in this shot




#3 Another angle of the bad steel spot




4.This is the same strip but on the right wall;  looks like new!
	

		
			
		

		
	




5 The left side, same height.....Once again, like new!
	

		
			
		

		
	




6. The tools I used during the inquisition....




7. And this is what I feed it, all cut in the summer of 2013 in West Warren, MA, and all hardwood.




So, here we are again. I have no problems with fixing the furnace. As you all know, SHI_ happens. The problem lies in the fact that Central Boiler claims to have a 20 year warranty on this product. So far, the warranty seems to be a semi-warranty, which is only part of the problem. The service, or lack of it, is the real problem. I called my dealer, who has been very helpful. I have also called and emailed CB, only to have the service dude call my dealer back and not respond to my email. Bad business brothers....bad business. At least talk to me, I'm willing to work with them, but no such luck.
To address some of the questions and comments previously posted....
         1. The water jacket is not pressurized, nor should it be
         2. Homeowners insurance is not an option; deductibles etc.
         3. Repair, sell and indoor gasser??  I don't quit that easily.
I think the EClassic 2400 is a great furnace. I will fix it and continue to burn wood to heat my home and garage. The problem is that the filler plate (picture 3) that they used in the construction is NOT made of the same type of steel that the rest of the firebox is and it is quite obvious to anybody that is a welder or has some metallurgical experience. The Problem: Central Boiler's customer service is terrible and they should be ashamed of themselves. As of this writing, their 'warranty' is useless and quite honestly, is blatant false advertisement. 
Thanks for listening to my rant, I will keep y'all posted.
Merry Christmas & Happy New Year!!

The Weimar


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## heaterman (Dec 27, 2014)

If you read through the fine print in their warranty it has plenty of wiggle room in it. Sad to say it but that is a fact. It's just barely worth the paper it's printed on.
Have to add this is the case with every OWB warranty I have ever read through. If they choose to opt out and not help you, they can. It's really at the discretion of any company regardless of whether they are making wood stoves or cars or chain saws.....whatever.
The issue with any brand is how well it's designed and built in the first place and that is very tough to determine for anyone not experienced with gassers and how they work. CB's design leaves a lot to be desired. The local dealer here (very high volume) said he is thinking of getting out of the biz when he can't get the old non-gasser style anymore. The few E models he has sold are head aches for him.

I can't give you any help here other than to say keep all repair receipts, all receipts for Central's water treatment (no warranty at all if you don't use their product) and document all cleaning and maintenance you do on it.
One customer of mine (now) had a CB pellet/corn boiler that cost him nearly $3,800 in out of warranty repairs, while it was under warranty...... He kept meticulous records of everything and when he finally took CB to court he got a judgement of $5,000 against them, which is the maximum small claims amount here in Michigan.They did pay it. That is the only thing they would do for him and he wound up having us install something else after scrapping the CB.

Looking at your pictures, it appears pretty cut and dried that you have some severe fire side erosion going on in that area. It didn't perforate from the back/water side.


I have to add this as an illustration of how warranties work...........
Garn has a written 5 year warranty on their boiler. There is no warranty for water side corrosion. They flatly and honestly state that they have no control over your water chemistry and it's up to the owner to keep tabs on it.
That being said, we had a customer whose Garn developed a crack in the air collar. I went and took pictures of it and sent them to Martin Lunde, the owner of Garn. Together, we figured out that the owner was loading his Garn by hand stacking wood in the firebox sideways nearly full front to back/bottom to top.
Loading in that manner exposed a much larger than normal fuel surface area to the incoming air and created near blast furnace temperatures on a section of the fire box which was not designed to see anything close to that.
After figuring that out Martin simply said, "have him get it welded up and repaired and send me the bill." Which we did and he reimbursed the owner directly.
That is a company choosing to stand behind their product and reputation. Plain and simple.

The best warranty in the business is the one you never need.


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## cityboy172 (Dec 27, 2014)

For me, repair and sell isn't about giving up. If I own something that should go 10-15 years, relatively issue free, and I  have 2 major issues with the product in 14 months of use (more like 7? Months actual use) I'm going to be looking for a way out. Especially the steel issue. Structural failure that early on is unacceptable. Top that off with the way they stand behind their product... yeah, I'm out.


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## The Weimar (Dec 27, 2014)

I don't disagree with your ideas, Cityboy, especially the statistics of the 15 years expected vs. 14 months actual.   Central Boiler uses the words "at its option" and "reserves the right" in its warranty page, in hopes of preventing a large financial loss to itself, not its agents. Unfortunately for CB, these words do not prevent the 'loss of social aspect', as bad publicity is not very good for business.  If there was lots of bad publicity about CB before I had purchased, I wouldn't have bought it. I now see that CB is having some legal issues as a result of their 'warranty' and I don't want to go to court but, I will if I have to. All of this aside, it just sucks that a company like this doesn't stand behind their product and try to make it right. 
I, personally, have the technology to fix it. I will use a higher grade of steel, most likely a bit thicker, and will continue to monitor the entire furnace and its condition. 
Most of all, I appreciate all of your thoughts, comments and suggestions. Keep up the good work and stay tuned, Monday ought to bring some updates as I begin to break some balls....

The Weimar


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## haveissues (Dec 27, 2014)

My brother just put the same boiler into service yesterday.  Hopefully he has better luck than you.  I know it won't fix your boiler but I guarantee this thread with your very clear pictures of what happened will cost central boiler some sales.


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## Fred61 (Dec 28, 2014)

cityboy172 said:


> For me, repair and sell isn't about giving up. If I own something that should go 10-15 years, relatively issue free, and I  have 2 major issues with the product in 14 months of use (more like 7? Months actual use) I'm going to be looking for a way out. Especially the steel issue. Structural failure that early on is unacceptable. Top that off with the way they stand behind their product... yeah, I'm out.


Something for those folks to keep in mind when they find a nearly new Central Boiler for sale on Craigs List for a great price.


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## cityboy172 (Dec 28, 2014)

Fred61 said:


> Something for those folks to keep in mind when they find a nearly new Central Boiler for sale on Craigs List for a great price.




Or lightly used anything, anywhere  for a great price.


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## The Weimar (Dec 28, 2014)

If you see a E Classic 2400 on CL, Ebay or any of those sites, you will know its mine by the "professionally repaired by The Weimar" in the description...


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## The Weimar (Jan 5, 2015)

Update 2015,

I have gotten my CB E Classic 2400 repaired. After some deep investigation which included a lot of cutting and grinding on my 1 year old wood furnace, the inadequate filler plate that had been welded into the front of the firebox, just below the door, has been removed and replaced with a much more substantial piece of steel. I estimate that CB used 1/8" flat stock to fill in the area, which is just not thick enough to withstand that constant, high heat. It has been replaced with 5/16'' flat stock, which is thicker than the rest of the furnace. No leaks as of this writing and not much in the way of satisfaction from CB, but I am yet to send of the bill. Check out the pics. Just in time too, it is supposed to be single digits if not below zero here in the next couple of days..

Left front corner with new steel..
.
	

		
			
		

		
	




Right side front, all patched up.




Here is what came out.....




Hows that for corroded away, eh?




On the left is what came out, on the right is what went in.....




And lastly, the spot that was leaking.....Good stuff, yes?





Thanks for watching this, I will continue to post updates about the sterling service that CB is so famous for.

The Weimar


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## maple1 (Jan 5, 2015)

If that's replaced with the same type of material (albeit thicker) - will the problem not re-occur but just take longer to get through the metal? Seems there would be some kind of fundamental flaw in the boiler design to cause it to erode like that in those particular spots.

Good luck, in any event!


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## The Weimar (Jan 5, 2015)

I think the problem lies in the fact that the thinner material is unable to transfer the heat energy without over heating. What I mean by this is if you have ever used an acetylene torch to cut steel, you know that it is easier to cut thin stock than it is to cut thick stuff. In that same way, the thicker steel is able to transfer the heat energy to the water jacket without over heating and deteriorating like mine did. There is a happy medium though, as 1" plate would hold so much heat that it would take forever to heat the water and much of that energy would go up the pipe.
We will see what happens but at least I'm back off the Black Gold.....and on the wood....

Thanks


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 5, 2015)

Because of the new EPA regs that went into effect first of this year, the older-style OWBs are going to be in high demand, I believe, from those who want to burn green wood, roadkill deer, garbage, etc. Probably no better time to sell a newer, used OWB than next spring/summer. In short, "They don't make 'em like this anymore."

I'd be concerned that this thing is a lemon (CB has a pretty good rep for quality, or always has) best unloaded asap--preferably to someone far away who also has welding skills.


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## The Weimar (Jan 5, 2015)

Eric,

You are not the first to advise me to get rid of it asap....But the question remains, what would I replace it with?  Can't buy an old model, as it must be a gasifier here in MA. It does seem t work well, even if it has been constructed with recycled steel out of old 
toyotas and nissans. And how would I recoup the loss? $14k is a lot to spend on two years of use.... by my gorilla math, that could have been a brand new Escalade....Maybe I will cut the entire firebox out of it and replace with a custom bent, tempered steel piece....nothing to it, right? As far as CB's quality, I do not disagree, it is their customer service that leaves quite a bit to be desired......As I said before, I do not quit easily, sometimes for the best, other times just because I am stubborn....

The Weimar


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## atvalaska (Jan 5, 2015)

eric....u forgot burning  the "retreads" that come off  18 wheeler tires ...some fine "heat " in those    ...


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 5, 2015)

Easy for me to say, I agree. My thinking is simply that anything that failed that soon and was apparently pretty shoddily constructed, is probably not going to hold up well over time.  Obviously, you've had a much better look at it than me. Being a gasifier guy myself, I guess I'd shoot for something along those lines. I will be replacing my mom's Brute Force OWB next summer with an EKO like mine. We're going to build a cinder block boiler room for it in the wood shed. Buying the Brute Force when her old Heatmor failed last winter seemed to make sense, but it's not working out for her--too much smoke; too much wood. So, I think next summer will be a good time to unload it. We should only "lose" $2,000 on the boiler, but she got two heating seasons out of it, so I think it's closer to a wash.

Good luck in whatever you do. I don't doubt your ability to adapt.


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## heaterman (Jan 7, 2015)

From what I have seen of these and a few other brands,  it's more the design than the steel or the thickness of it. What's going on in that area is erosion of the metal caused by flame impingement.  It would be similar to running a cutting torch on the metal and that problem is "baked in" to the design. (pun intended)


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## The Weimar (Jan 7, 2015)

Heaterman,  I semi-agree with you. Flame impingement, or the touching of the flame to the heat transfer surface, in this case, the firebox, happens. I also agree with your example of the cutting torch on the metal. Here is where I disagree: The thickness of the material has a great deal to do with the heat transfer. To use the cutting torch example, if you hold the torch close to a piece of 1/4" flat plate, it will take x amount of time to get to the Draper Point (when it starts to turn red). 1/8'' flat plate will take y amount of time (much less) and therefore will start to break down at a much higher rate. Now, my seasoned oak and hickory doesn't get nearly as hot as my acetylene torch does, and with the water jacket behind the steel helping to 'cool' it, the steel used in any wood burning furnace should not corrode away in one year, unless it is very thin and of poor quality material. 1/8" steel plate in ANY furnace is unacceptable, period. Having said that, poor customer service is just as unacceptable, if not worse, whether it is with a wood furnace manufacturer, at a car dealership or at the hot dog stand.

So, whether it is round, square or whatever shape the engineer 'designs' it to be, if he uses crap to build it, the design will be crap, kinda like what your quote says..

The Weimar


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## heaterman (Jan 7, 2015)

In your case the metal thickness will give you a somewhat longer time before failure for the simple reason that there is more material to wear through.
Regardless of whether the metal is thick or thin though, both of them are water backed so it isn't the same as a torch actually cutting the steel. You would never be able to get either of them red hot to where the steel would melt. (try to get a water filled copper pipe hot enough to melt solder at 400*)
What you have going on there is flame caused erosion the same as if you were sanding or grinding the surface.


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## The Weimar (Jan 8, 2015)

Again, heaterman, I do not disagree with you when you say that I have 'something going on'. I am not educated on erosion of steel by flame. One of steels great properties is that even under a high heat load it maintains 95% of its structural integrity. Steel doesn't begin to fail until it reaches 565* *celsius*, and I would think that my furnace doesn't get near that temperature, especially with the water jacket helping to keep it cool. Is there some evidence, research papers, etc. on the internet that speak to "erosion by flame"? I would be very interested in reading these.  By the way, if you want to get that water filled copper pipe hot, use that acetylene torch, it will melt that copper, water filled or not.
Again, I appreciate all of the comments and interest in this problem, and I hope it never happens to any of you.


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## Clarkbug (Jan 8, 2015)

Thanks for posting your fix Weimar.  Strange things are afoot in that spot, odd that it was so thin.  Hope you got it up and running ahead of this cold snap!


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## Fred61 (Jan 8, 2015)

Erosion by flame is real. The extreme heat oxidizes the surface and the oxidation falls away. Ever see a blacksmith remove iron from the coals and strike it with a hammer? Those sparks that fly off are surface oxidation.


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## The Weimar (Jan 8, 2015)

It is running, Clarkbug, and as cold as it is here I bet its colder where you are.  -8 this morning at 'El Rancho Relaxo". Seems to be running well, as I had the previous year to dial it in and get the wood seasoned. When I loaded her up this morn the temp gauge was at 1.48,  I'm pretty sure that translates to 'HOT'and No smoke out the pipe, except for the heat loss hitting the arctic air.  Even the weimars' find it too cold to hunt, they don't have to much hair on em ya know. But they do like climbing on the woodpile.
I will continue to update on any for issues, whether it is with the furnace or the customer service dept @ CB. They have not responded to my email as of yet, but its only been THREE days. Long way to MN from MA.

The Weimar


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## The Weimar (Jan 8, 2015)

Hi Fred, 
when the blacksmith takes that steel out of the coals it is usually glowing red and yellow, yes? That redness starts around 550 C or 1000 F. With water behind it, the steel should not get that hot. And to my point, if the material is thick enough to withstand the direct heat, then the transfer of the heat energy to the water is done efficiently without the steel burning up. That is why it takes that blacksmith so much longer to heat up the thick stuff that they use in well built wood furnaces...and not the 1/8" recycled Hyundai's I have in the front of my firebox.


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## Fred61 (Jan 8, 2015)

Unit heat at the surface.


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## maple1 (Jan 8, 2015)

I think I would put some fire brick in front of your new steel spots - maybe just one brick in each spot would do it? Part of this heat erosion/impingement thing I think is not so much just the heat but the force of it - air movement with it - and the stuff that brings with it like ash & coal bits. That part is just a hunch, but there are lots of pics & threads on here about nozzle wear/abrasion, and I kind of think the same thing might be going on at those spots in your firebox. For some strange reason related to airflows in there. A firebrick should be some cheap & easy protection.

All very interesting regardless and appreciate the updates.


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## mr.fixit (Jan 8, 2015)

Some types of wood are corrosive if not seasoned long enough,most notably oak.
Burn a lot of oak?


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## The Weimar (Jan 8, 2015)

I burn oak, maple, hickory and just about everything else that I can get my hands on. No pine, unless it is old, like 3-5 years minimum. I have burned a very minimal amount of unseasoned wood in there and wouldn't any corrosive wood not be smart enough to only attack a 2" x 24' spot in the front of the firebox?  The rest of this thing is in 'as new' condition..  All good comments and ideas here....especially the fire brick along the front of the box.. There are some fire resistant coatings on the market that I am going to do some research on, ceramic based coatings that are applied with a plasma,  sounds cool but probably costs an arm and a leg....

The Weimar


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## heaterman (Jan 8, 2015)

Bear in mind that a gasification fed flame can reach 1,700-1,800*F on a routine basis.
Also realize that fluid flow on the water side of areas reaching those kinds of temps becomes critical.
I would bet that part of the equation is not even on the radar of many OWB manufacturers because they have never had to deal with it.

http://www.nationalboard.org/index.aspx?pageID=164&ID=186


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## Fred61 (Jan 9, 2015)

It's like that was written with this thread in mind


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## The Weimar (Jan 9, 2015)

That is a good report, Heaterman, thanks for sharing that. I think that the last three paragraphs relate directly to the problems I have experienced. I would like to say that it does call out temperatures and wall thickness, but does not clearly state how wall thicknesses designed to withstand and transfer that type of heat can protect the system from failure more efficiently than thin wall steel. But, having said that, BINGO,  hit it right on the ol' head.
Nicely done.....


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## maple1 (Jan 9, 2015)

That was interesting.

So from that, I would also suspect there might also be poor water flow in pockets of the water jacket right behind these problem spots.

I would still lean to a couple of firebricks in front of those spots - although they might possibly deflect things to other spots. But should scrub some of the bad effect off in doing so. Cheap & easy at least.


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## mr.fixit (Jan 9, 2015)

Not to familiar with the inner design of the E2400,but does it have 2 chambers,an upper loading chamber and a lower gasification chamber? 
If so,where was the leak?


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## The Weimar (Jan 9, 2015)

Check out the previous posts Mr Fixit, like page 1........everything should be pretty clear, and if isn't I will do my best to 'fixit'...


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## mr.fixit (Jan 9, 2015)

I did look at the pictures,the thing is they are all close ups so someone unfamiliar with that particular boiler can't really tell what part of the boiler it is.

Don't bother trying to make it any clearer for my sake.


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## The Weimar (Jan 9, 2015)

Ok, good point...The affected area is directly under the door, on the front wall. One suspicious, 2" x 24" 'filler' that was definitely of a different composition and thickness than the rest of the furnace.
What do you think?


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## dlabrie (May 6, 2015)

Did you ever get satisfaction from CB?


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## The Weimar (Jul 14, 2015)

Hello Mr Labrie,   the only satisfaction that I have gotten was that after I had the firebox repaired, I was able to light the lamp and burn for the rest of the season. It has developed another leak, this time in the top right corner of the firebox, which I will be repairing in September. CB, theire customer service, and their warranty, are not good.


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## Clarkbug (Jul 17, 2015)

Sorry to hear that Weimar.  Is that an area with an odd fill of metal also?


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## mpilihp (Jul 17, 2015)

So just curious I'm far from an expert but do you have return water temp protection? Even seasoned wood has some moisture  in it and coolness in the firebox can cause the moisture to collect.


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## The Weimar (Jul 19, 2015)

I do have return water temp protection, set at about 135f. The problems with the firebox are not moisture related, I promise. This is strictly a poor quality and/or wrong type of material used in the construction of the spot that needed the best quality of materials. 1/8" carbon steel is no good for a wood furnace, or anything that is going to have fire near it for any amount of time, especially extended periods. I am also starting to think that the circulation of the water throughout the furnace does not happen consistently, allowing for some 'hotspots', resulting in the flame corrosion that I am having. I am going to up-size the pump on the furnace to see if this helps with the situation, after I do some more welding...  Its almost that time again, stay tuned for more updates and pics of my leaky CB..

the weimar


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## heaterman (Jul 20, 2015)

The Weimar said:


> _* I am also starting to think that the circulation of the water throughout the furnace does not happen consistently, allowing for some 'hotspots',*_ resulting in the flame corrosion that I am having.
> the weimar



^^^^^^^^ This occurs more than many of the OWB manufacturers realize and they will all find out as they transition to gasification type boilers. It was seldom if ever a problem before because internal flame temps were rarely high enough to cause this phenomena.
For those of you who owned a Ford diesel pickup with the old International 7.3 liter engine, you will recall there was a coolant additive that was supposed to be used every 50K miles or so. It's purpose was to prevent "air bubbles" from forming on the water jacket side of the cylinder liners, which of course led to issues with hot spots in the cylinder. 
This is basically the same thing.


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## The Weimar (Jul 20, 2015)

Heaterman,   What do you think I should do?  Or more accurately, how much bigger of a pump do you think I should run? I have a single Taco F model, (I think its an 05) flanged to 1 1/4" pex pipe. How much bigger do you think I should go? 
Any info on this would be of a great help, and thanks to any and all of you who have followed this thread since last fall and offered your suggestions.

The Weimar
Jim


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## Karl_northwind (Jul 21, 2015)

In the heatmaster G series, we have to maintain a minimum flow rate thru the boiler.  Your system flow rate is practically limited by the size of your pex and circulator.  we will either pipe up a primary/secondary on the output of the boiler, (pipe from the supply to return with a big pipe and circulator with a couple tees in line that your existing supply/return circulator and piping would connect) giving you a large flow rate and mixing the boiler well, increasing the water flow past (hopefully) the hot spots.  The other option is to take an unused boiler connection and just pipe from supply to return with a circulator to help mix the boiler.  in your case that would be a fairly simple install and if it doesn't help, you haven't lost much.  

these gasifiers are closer to the euro gasifiers, and less like the old OWBs, in that they need specified flow rates, return temperature protection (which you have)

also: I didn't know that about the 7.3l international. as I own one (and retired one recently with 350,000 on the clock due to an engine compartment fire) I'll have to look into that additive. 

cheers, 
karl


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## heaterman (Jul 21, 2015)

The Weimar said:


> Heaterman,   What do you think I should do?  Or more accurately, how much bigger of a pump do you think I should run? I have a single Taco F model, (I think its an 05) flanged to 1 1/4" pex pipe. How much bigger do you think I should go?
> Any info on this would be of a great help, and thanks to any and all of you who have followed this thread since last fall and offered your suggestions.
> 
> The Weimar
> Jim




As Karl alluded too, the flow rate regardless of the pump used is going to be limited to a great extent by the dynamics presented by the system. These include tube diameter, length and other items such as heat exchanger(s) that create head.
The unwavering truth of moving fluid through a system is that greater flow creates higher head. So a point of no "return" is reached fairly rapidly regardless of the pump capability.

The other side of the coin is the flow pattern inside the water jacket of the boiler itself. Who knows if this was even thought of or studied by the manufacturer.....? It could very well be that vagaries of the internal construction may prevent even circulation over all parts of the heat exchanger surface regardless of flow rate.

All that fancy stuff being said.......I have no clue.
I can only assume that more flow would help keep things stirred up in there. Karl suggested a primary/secondary arrangement where the boiler can flow at one rate and the system can flow another. This would be a good start.
A Grunfoss 26-99, B&G PL 36, Taco 2400-20 would all provide about 15-20gpm in a 200' 1-1/4" primary loop. I would think that should create enough turbulence in the water jacket to eliminate hot spots but I have no idea how it is designed.inside.

I wish I could say........"Here's your answer!", but there are too many unknowns with the boiler itself.


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## maple1 (Jul 21, 2015)

_*These include tube diameter, length and other items such as heat exchanger(s) that create head.*_

...and the heat demand of the system?


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## heaterman (Jul 21, 2015)

maple1 said:


> _*These include tube diameter, length and other items such as heat exchanger(s) that create head.*_
> 
> ...and the heat demand of the system?



For this particular question/problem.......no. Because the issue is enough flow to keep the boiler happy rather than the house supplied with heat. His house may only need 4-5 GPM but the question is, how much does the boiler need to eliminate hotspots in the water jacket that seem to be causing problems. In Weimar's situation, he may want to simply shoot for as much as possible to see if it helps.


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## maple1 (Jul 21, 2015)

I guess I was thinking that if the house didn't need much heat, it would slow the flow (like, close zone valve(s)). But also forgot that most OWB setups pump 24/7 anyway.


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## The Weimar (Jul 21, 2015)

Firstly, thanks for all the insight, knowledge and your interest. You guys have helped me more in the last few posts than CB has over the past three years.
Secondly, you guys are right on point with the info, kinda like you have been here and have seen what I have going on.  Heat exchanger in the basement, thermostatic valve just as the pipes enter my basement wall, and 135' of 1 1/4" pex (x2). The boiler itself is about 12' below the heat exchanger, which is making me wonder whether or not I have enough pump...ah, the pump, a Taco 009-F5. There is also another pump (same model) on the other side of the heat exchanger. Never a problem with heating the house but I am now thinking that I am boiling the water right off the top of the furnace because the little Taco isn't circulating my 350 or so gallons quickly enough. 
I have been trying to swear less but this is gonna make me F'n go off the deep end. How bout this idea, I'll run the Taco 2400-20 that heaterman suggested to run water from boiler to heat exchanger and ill swap the 009-F5 onto the other ports on the back of the water jacket to circulate the water in the boiler itself.. Can't be any worse than what I have going on now, right? 

As I get going on this in the next month or so, I will post some pics....Thanks fellas

The Weimar


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## Karl_northwind (Jul 22, 2015)

if the 009 is moving enough water to heat the house, you could leave it alone, and put your additional circulator on the second ports and let it stir.  the 009 is a low flow high head circ, so well suited to moving as much water thru a long narrow pipe as possible, but if you leave it wide open, it'll still only move 10 gpm or so.  a 0010 would stir it good, at 25 gpm on a short piece of 1.5" pipe, supply to return.  the 2400-20 would be closer to 40 gpm.  

I wonder if your return protection is adding so much head to the main loop that it's restricting the flow and giving you a really low flow rate at the boiler. have you ever measured it?


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