# Looking for comments on boilers I saw at logging show



## mpilihp (May 19, 2013)

Hi I was at the show yesterday and was intrigued by the Thermo-Control model 600 and Greenwood Frontier CX unit. The THermo-Control unfortunately is probably physically too big for me to get it into my basement but its design sounds simple and reliable.  They suggest some storage but minimal, Id want to run with no storage, and I would have to have it in my garage which would be a pain, relocate wood into the garage too.

The Greenwood Frontier the salesman said did not need storage and made it sound easy to clean as well.  I did not like the fact it would not auto shut down if power was lost but id rather have to have a couple batteries and an inverter to run it than placing a boiler in the garage.

Does anyone have experience with either of these?  Id like to hear some non biased comments on both of these boilers and first hand experience.

Thanks!

~ Phil


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## BoilerMan (May 19, 2013)

Hi Phil,I was at the show as well, 3 hours south of me. I spoke with the Greenwood guy too. There are many old Greenwood (Fred Seaton design) boilers around here. They are not easy to clean, and their new design, makes me wonder. He did say it is a totally new boiler from the gorund up, but the idea that you need to unbolt the top and peel back insulation to clean the tube HX seems alot like the old design to me. I have no expierence with the new GW's and their crossfire design. It's design seems to be like an EPA woodstove, which I must admit, seems like it would burn clean, but may still lack some thermal efficiency due to the HX design. If they used horizontal firetubes and had movable turbs in them, or had a wing-nutted cleanout door at each end like the Portage&Main's design I'd like the new GW more. Personally, if I were in your situation (not knowing anything about your heat demand or emitters though) I'd go with a quality down-draft design and storage. _*Wood cannot be burned slowly in a boiler efficiently.*_

TS


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## mpilihp (May 19, 2013)

Hi TS thanks for your opinion, I am looking for a gassifier that does not need storage, I understand they do not run efficiently when throttled down due to no call for heat. But I have to compromise, my wife does not want to have to go outside to fill the boiler and we do not have room inside for storage.  There are a couple of companies touting modulating gassiffiers, GW and Thermo-Control are two that I saw at the show that claim this.  I currently use a New Yorker water jacket standard wood boiler that creates a lot of soot and TONs of creasote.  I had to make an install a custom chimney cleaner as in the winter it needs to be cleaned once a week.  We burn about 10-12 cord a year and we burn year round (heat DHW and hot tub).  We are not getting any younger and Id like to be able to run something more efficient and not have to cut as much wood.  

Thanks  ~ Phil


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## leon (May 19, 2013)

Have you looked at the Harman SF360? Granted its a non gasser
but It is rated for up to 180,000 BTU with wood or coal.

It can heat 2,900-7,600 square feet based on climate and
home efficiency.

It can be equiped with a domestic hot water coil and it also has a
firebox reducer for spring and summer useage.

The SF360 can burn wood up to 27 inches long or Pea, Nut, or
Stove sized coal.

The boiler has a 42 gallon water capacity and will create 4 gallons per
minute of hot water.


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## muncybob (May 20, 2013)

Phil, if you are not using storage do some research on the Wood Gun. Most any boiler is going to have advantages and shortcomings and the WG is no exception, but after 4 seasons runing mine w/o storage I am fairly happy with the boiler. With that said, if I had the room and $$ I would have storage in my basement.


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## maple1 (May 20, 2013)

Just wondering - is storage out because you can't get it into the basement (say a narrow doorway or the like), or is it out because of lack of space down there to start with?

Storage can be made to get into & fit into confined spaces if getting it there is the issue.

If I was buying a new boiler & storage was absolutely out of the question, my short list would contain Woodgun &  Empyre Elite. Maybe also Attack, Eko & Biomass. There may be others - simply put there aren't a whole lot of boilers that absolutely require it (mine does) - but they all function much better with it. I would not consider the ones you mentioned, or a Harman. And depending on your fuel situation, I might also consider a pellet boiler such as a Windhager.


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## mpilihp (May 20, 2013)

muncybob said:


> Phil, if you are not using storage do some research on the Wood Gun. Most any boiler is going to have advantages and shortcomings and the WG is no exception, but after 4 seasons runing mine w/o storage I am fairly happy with the boiler. With that said, if I had the room and $$ I would have storage in my basement.


HI Thanks for the opinion, Im not familiar with a Wood Gun, Ill do some reading on them, thanks

~ PHil


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## mpilihp (May 20, 2013)

maple1 said:


> Just wondering - is storage out because you can't get it into the basement (say a narrow doorway or the like), or is it out because of lack of space down there to start with?
> 
> Storage can be made to get into & fit into confined spaces if getting it there is the issue.
> 
> If I was buying a new boiler & storage was absolutely out of the question, my short list would contain Woodgun & Empyre Elite. Maybe also Attack, Eko & Biomass. There may be others - simply put there aren't a whole lot of boilers that absolutely require it (mine does) - but they all function much better with it. I would not consider the ones you mentioned, or a Harman. And depending on your fuel situation, I might also consider a pellet boiler such as a Windhager.


 
Hi storage is out for several reasons:
- Room, dont have much of it in the basement
- Cost I cannot justify a new boiler as it is other than I want to eliminate some work, cut down on the wood we burn
- Safety, eliminate the creosote we have to deal with.

My wife is active in heating the house and she wants it to be simple, paper, kindling and some wood and walk away, she doesn't want to have to mess with a fancy system and I dont blame her.

Another reason I've heard storage works best with radiant heat, I have HWB, pumping 150 deg water doesn't work as well as 180.

As for fuel we have 50+ acres and cut from tree to stove length, buy anything other than the gas to power my saw including pellets is against my religion  

So what reason would you not consider the Thermo-Control unit?

Thanks for your input.

~ Phil


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## mpilihp (May 20, 2013)

leon said:


> Have you looked at the Harman SF360? Granted its a non gasser
> but It is rated for up to 180,000 BTU with wood or coal.
> 
> It can heat 2,900-7,600 square feet based on climate and
> ...


 
Hi Leon I have a conventional wood boiler now, I have indirect DHW and I heat our hot tub with it as well.  Its a good working simple system just burns a lot of wood.  THanks

~ Phil


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## rkusek (May 21, 2013)

I wonder if you considered storage in the garage and boiler in the basement.  Loss of power should thermosiphon up to storage not requiring any fancy controls.  Does 180 water struggle to heat your home?  Are you sure 150 or less wouldn't still get the job done on all but the worst days?  Certainly the summer months would allow you to drop down much more.  A Wood Gun might be a good fit for you.  The downdraft gassers like mine can somewhat allow you burn a little slower too  by turning down the fan speed if that 180 water was really necessary on some days.  If something like this would work for you I believe you would burn half the wood, clean the chimney once, and maybe the turbs twice in a year.  Its all about avoiding the idling from my experience.


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## leon (May 21, 2013)

mpilihp said:


> Hi Leon I have a conventional wood boiler now, I have indirect DHW and I heat our hot tub with it as well. Its a good working simple system just burns a lot of wood. THanks
> 
> ~ Phil


 

Hi Phil,

It sounds like you could use a coal stoker for sure have you ever considered them?


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## nate379 (May 21, 2013)

Did you see the BlockBuster booth?  Dave (saleman) was telling me that they were down in Bangor for the show.


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## maple1 (May 21, 2013)

mpilihp said:


> Hi storage is out for several reasons:
> - Room, dont have much of it in the basement
> - Cost I cannot justify a new boiler as it is other than I want to eliminate some work, cut down on the wood we burn
> - Safety, eliminate the creosote we have to deal with.
> ...


 
I guess simply that I don't think it's a 'real' gassifier - alhough will also admit that I haven't seen one personally. I did check out their 'how it works' info on their website - the first thing that came to my mind is how do you change the refractory? It looks kind of buried, and refractory should be considered a service item. (It does look like it could be quite easy to clean). And, for the price of it, you could get a downdraft gassifier and storage - although sounds like storage is not an option for you. But could you do storage in the garage as suggested above? It really is a game changer, I think at least as big an impact as going to a gassifier - and would also cut down on the creosote as storage allows you to burn hot for longer periods. I also have hot water baseboard, and do not need 180 water to keep the house warm - my storage was usually down to 140 or so before I burned, and the house was never warmer than it was this past winter.

Whichever way to you decide to go, I think you're in the right place to find out. Good luck.


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## pelletdude (May 21, 2013)

mpilihp said:


> Hi TS thanks for your opinion, I am looking for a gassifier that does not need storage, I understand they do not run efficiently when throttled down due to no call for heat. But I have to compromise, my wife does not want to have to go outside to fill the boiler and we do not have room inside for storage. There are a couple of companies touting modulating gassiffiers, GW and Thermo-Control are two that I saw at the show that claim this. I currently use a New Yorker water jacket standard wood boiler that creates a lot of soot and TONs of creasote. I had to make an install a custom chimney cleaner as in the winter it needs to be cleaned once a week. We burn about 10-12 cord a year and we burn year round (heat DHW and hot tub). We are not getting any younger and Id like to be able to run something more efficient and not have to cut as much wood.
> 
> Thanks ~ Phil


Empyre Elite Indoor and Empyre XT Outdoor by Pro Fab. Do not require Storage. Many dealers in Maine. Check Uncle Henry's


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## mpilihp (May 21, 2013)

leon said:


> Hi Phil,
> 
> It sounds like you could use a coal stoker for sure have you ever considered them?


 No we have 50 acres and cut our own wood....


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## mpilihp (May 21, 2013)

nate379 said:


> Did you see the BlockBuster booth? Dave (saleman) was telling me that they were down in Bangor for the show.


 Hi yes I think I saw it though I did not stop and look at them specifically, I still process wood the manual way and dont see a fancy rig lilke that in my future.  They are a cool machine though!


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## mpilihp (May 21, 2013)

rkusek said:


> I wonder if you considered storage in the garage and boiler in the basement. Loss of power should thermosiphon up to storage not requiring any fancy controls. Does 180 water struggle to heat your home? Are you sure 150 or less wouldn't still get the job done on all but the worst days? Certainly the summer months would allow you to drop down much more. A Wood Gun might be a good fit for you. The downdraft gassers like mine can somewhat allow you burn a little slower too by turning down the fan speed if that 180 water was really necessary on some days. If something like this would work for you I believe you would burn half the wood, clean the chimney once, and maybe the turbs twice in a year. Its all about avoiding the idling from my experience.


 My statement on BHW needing 180 water is based on talking with my local heating contractor I sometime use.  Also in the coldest of days with my WB cranking it barely keeps the house warm though its rated at 70K btu. 

I did some reading on the Wood Gun so how easy are they to clean and how difficult are they to run?  I am interesting in something that manages itself and just requires the user to know how much to fill it based on the load, IE shoulder season just 1/2 load needed....   My wife will not want to have to turn dials and flip switches to set it up for the needed amount of heat, she would rather go back to a standard wood stove than do that.


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## mpilihp (May 21, 2013)

pelletdude said:


> Empyre Elite Indoor and Empyre XT Outdoor by Pro Fab. Do not require Storage. Many dealers in Maine. Check Uncle Henry's


 Hi I did some reading on them, sounds interesting except it states they are non-pressurized systems.  I dont know the pros/cons of a non pressurized system.  Also My existing oil system is pressurized which I want to keep in tact as a backup.     Can you explain how that is done and what the pros/cons are?

Thanks  ~ Phil


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## arbutus (May 21, 2013)

mpilihp said:


> Hi I did some reading on them, sounds interesting except it states they are non-pressurized systems.​


 
That is correct.  A local dealer has the Empyre line, and has shown me a few in the area that were operating. 
You need a heat exchanger to tie in the open system with your current system.

The open system will need the water sampled and boiler chemical treatment added occasionally to scavenge oxygen and adjust pH.  This dealer told me the owners are doing this on an annual basis, when they add water.


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## muncybob (May 21, 2013)

mpilihp said:


> I did some reading on the Wood Gun so how easy are they to clean and how difficult are they to run? I am interesting in something that manages itself and just requires the user to know how much to fill it based on the load, IE shoulder season just 1/2 load needed.... My wife will not want to have to turn dials and flip switches to set it up for the needed amount of heat, she would rather go back to a standard wood stove than do that.


 
My WG boiler is very basic to operate and very easy to clean(clean mine weekly, about a 10-15 minute job). But, running any boiler w/o storage is going to have a bit of a learning curve esp. in the shoulder seasons. It's more of an issue to learn how the fire will reiginte after a period of being idle than it is on the size of the wood load.


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## mpilihp (May 21, 2013)

muncybob said:


> My WG boiler is very basic to operate and very easy to clean(clean mine weekly, about a 10-15 minute job). But, running any boiler w/o storage is going to have a bit of a learning curve esp. in the shoulder seasons. It's more of an issue to learn how the fire will reiginte after a period of being idle than it is on the size of the wood load.


Im not too concern about the reigniting capability as long as its straight forward to start a fire.  I am concerned about the ability of the gassifier to idle down and not generate a lot of creosote during shoulder season.  Ive also read a few people experiencing issues with wood bridging over the nozzle into the secondary chamber.  

THanks  ~ Phil


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## mikefrommaine (May 21, 2013)

mpilihp said:


> I am concerned about the ability of the gassifier to idle down and not generate a lot of creosote during shoulder season.


 


mpilihp said:


> Ive also read a few people experiencing issues with wood bridging over the nozzle into the secondary chamber.


 

A downdraft gasser _with storage_ will eliminate all your concerns.


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## BoilerMan (May 21, 2013)

mpilihp said:


> Hi storage is out for several reasons:
> - Room, dont have much of it in the basement
> - Cost I cannot justify a new boiler as it is other than I want to eliminate some work, cut down on the wood we burn
> - Safety, eliminate the creosote we have to deal with.
> ...


 
Some contradiction about storage here.

-You are correct storage does need room, it can, however be a homemade square tank, several old propane tanks stacked so as to use less floor space.  Depending on where you store your wood, the space that two 500 gal LP tanks would take up may eliminate that much wood you need to consume on a yearly basis.

- Cost, well storage does certainly add cost, all depends on what and where you use for tank(s).  And storage would actually eliminate alot of work, as you need to process less wood, and build fewer fires especially in the summer for DHW production. 

- A gasser will produce no creosote at all if connected to storage and run flat out as it's designed to do, there are many on Hearth that will attest to this, myself included.


Any properly designed and the correct controls applied will make and wood boiler with storage a light and walk aways system. 

The only to know if you actually need 180 degree water is to do a heal loss calculation of you house and measure that against the number of feet of baseboard you have in your house.  If the origional installer installed the minimum for the heatloss of your structure, then you will need 180 (or whatever he designed it for) water _on the coldest day of the year.  _Some designers install a generous amount of BB and you can use much less than 180 degree water for the majority of the winter, some were cheap and designed for 200 degree and got away with less BB and you pay for it in fuel. 

Your contractor's comment on storage and radiant is based on the fact that radiant _is a low temp emitter_ so you can run storage down to a lower temp before having to light another fire and charge it back up (this is called useable heat).  Low temp emitters are not just radiant, but can be panel radiators (think Europe), oversized cast iron radiators (old school Heavy American Iron) or extensive amounts of BB either cast iron or fintube.  The larger the heating surface the lower the temp the water needs to be to get the job done. 

Hope this clears things up a bit for you, and you are in the right plcae with many heating nerds here to help no matter what you choose in the end.

TS


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## Downeast Farmer (May 23, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> A downdraft gasser _with storage_ will eliminate all your concerns.


What's a V-gun(L)?


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## mikefrommaine (May 23, 2013)

Downeast Farmer said:


> What's a V-gun(L)?


 
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/bitter-sweet-day-tearing-out-my-biomass-60.108366/


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## heaterman (May 23, 2013)

Phil, the first place to start is knowing what your heat loss actually is. If a person doesn't have a good handle on that, all decisions that follow are just a shot in the dark.
From that you can determine if you have excess heat producing capacity from your baseboard and get a solid handle on what water temperature you actually need to heat your place.

Concerning storage.....if you go with a good gasser that is sized appropriately you can get by with less storage capacity. A common error is to oversize thinking that a larger firebox will "hold a fire" longer. In reality all it does is hold more wood which then smolders during shutdown periods. Something to be avoided as much as possible if you want minimal maintenance, clean burning and long life from your boiler.
Many of the gassers in european systems are only working with a couple hundred gallons which could easily be done with something as inexpensive as a pair of old water heater tanks. Not ideal but we all have to work within the constraints of circumstances present on a given job.
The flip side of no storage is more time involved rekindling/starting fires, more maintenance and more frequent cleaning. Idling in any wood burner will develop more creosote regardless of what brand it is.

So....my humble advice would be to do a heat loss, select the best equipment you can afford and then try very hard to engineer at least a little storage into your system.
Those are the three major things you want to prioritize for a functional system with a high WAF.


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## mpilihp (May 23, 2013)

heaterman said:


> Phil, the first place to start is knowing what your heat loss actually is. If a person doesn't have a good handle on that, all decisions that follow are just a shot in the dark.
> From that you can determine if you have excess heat producing capacity from your baseboard and get a solid handle on what water temperature you actually need to heat your place.
> 
> Concerning storage.....if you go with a good gasser that is sized appropriately you can get by with less storage capacity. A common error is to oversize thinking that a larger firebox will "hold a fire" longer. In reality all it does is hold more wood which then smolders during shutdown periods. Something to be avoided as much as possible if you want minimal maintenance, clean burning and long life from your boiler.
> ...


 
Hi thanks for the advice, I think for now Ill keep my ear to the 'forum' and keep listening in on peoples experiences with different boilers.  I know running a gasser without storage is not the best solution but neither is a water jacket boiler like I have now and my wife would rather stick with this hunk of iron than go with something complexed and that takes up space with storage.  Id like the ability to do a try then buy with a boiler but Im not looking at a car so....

Thanks

~ Phil


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## maple1 (May 24, 2013)

I'd try to visit some different boiler setups & check them out in operation - there might be some on here you could see that are not that far away? If you're ever to NS, you can look at mine - boiler operation doesn't get much simpler than this thing, gassifier or not (but it does need storage).


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## BoilerMan (May 24, 2013)

Same here Phil, if your ever in the northern part of the state (Aroostook County) I can show mine off.  But I'm not burning in the summer.

There are several users on here in your area as well, not sure how many are still burning though.
TS


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## willworkforwood (May 24, 2013)

I'm amazed that there have been no questions about your current system.  Yes, New Yorker is a well-known dog, and the subject of numerous wild-eyed rants.  And all here would agree that every boiler discussed would be better than what you have now.  However, when you write that you need to clean your chimney once a week, well that jumps off the page at me.  I'd expect to do better than that burning well-seasoned wood in a beer keg. 

You didn't mention anything about getting smoked-out while reloading, so I'm going to assume that your draft is ok.  But that may also be subject to further consideration.  Other than a horrible rep, I don't know anything about a New Yorker, and if there are fire tubes (or anything else) that may be gumming up the works and needs to be cleaned.  Aside from those two considerations, the only thing left is the wood that you're burning (which is where it usually ends up anyway). 

You may be a long-time wood burner, and the following questions are not meant to offend.  But "seasoned" is one of those words that has more than one meaning. The seasoned that firewood guys sell is not the same seasoned that I burn in my boiler.  So can you describe: the typical dimensions (H x W) of your splits; which species of wood you primarily use; exactly how you season (open air, shed, combo); and finally what's the average seasoning time (i.e. between splitting/stacking and burning).  Moisture meter readings of resplit wood is helpful information, if you use one.  Before seeing your answers, I'm going to go out on a limb (or is it lame), and say I think you can use less wood and produce less creosote in your New Yorker by burning smaller, drier wood.  Not trying to imply with any of this that you shouldn't get a new boiler, but it seems that a level set of your existing system should be done first.


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## BoilerMan (May 24, 2013)

Good points ww4w!  I've owned a NewYorker prior to installing my Attack.  Just as water-jacketed box with a removable steel plate in the back/.  I never had creosote issues, I did run with storage and ran stack temps at 350-400F without execption. 

TS


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## mpilihp (May 24, 2013)

willworkforwood said:


> I'm amazed that there have been no questions about your current system. Yes, New Yorker is a well-known dog, and the subject of numerous wild-eyed rants. And all here would agree that every boiler discussed would be better than what you have now. However, when you write that you need to clean your chimney once a week, well that jumps off the page at me. I'd expect to do better than that burning well-seasoned wood in a beer keg.
> 
> You didn't mention anything about getting smoked-out while reloading, so I'm going to assume that your draft is ok. But that may also be subject to further consideration. Other than a horrible rep, I don't know anything about a New Yorker, and if there are fire tubes (or anything else) that may be gumming up the works and needs to be cleaned. Aside from those two considerations, the only thing left is the wood that you're burning (which is where it usually ends up anyway).
> 
> You may be a long-time wood burner, and the following questions are not meant to offend. But "seasoned" is one of those words that has more than one meaning. The seasoned that firewood guys sell is not the same seasoned that I burn in my boiler. So can you describe: the typical dimensions (H x W) of your splits; which species of wood you primarily use; exactly how you season (open air, shed, combo); and finally what's the average seasoning time (i.e. between splitting/stacking and burning). Moisture meter readings of resplit wood is helpful information, if you use one. Before seeing your answers, I'm going to go out on a limb (or is it lame), and say I think you can use less wood and produce less creosote in your New Yorker by burning smaller, drier wood. Not trying to imply with any of this that you shouldn't get a new boiler, but it seems that a level set of your existing system should be done first.


 
Hi I don't have to clean the chimney weekly but I have seen the starting of blockage after a month.  I cut off my own land and season it for a year.  The wood is mainly maple but is mixed with some oak, birch, poplar, pine and fir. The boiler is a barrel style with a water jacket around the firebox.  We are long time wood burners, migrating from a wood stove to this boiler. The flue is small 6" inch but I honestly did not have creosote issues when the chimney was shared with the oil boiler. I think the exhaust form the oil boiler reacted with the scalings of creosote on the flue walls and would flake off and just be a pile at the cleanout but now it clings to the flue walls.  We burn a mix of size as well, I cut wood right down to 1 inch in diameter and only split wood bigger than 5-6 inches.  I know the boiler does idle a lot during the shoulder seasons and is a good reason for creosote buildup.  Another change I made to the system which may also be a cause of the system idling more is I changed it from being in series with the oil boiler and now its in parallel. Ive only had one wood boiler so to me this is normal, maybe its not but if im going to make a change i would change to a gassifier.  My problem is space and simplicity, is water jacket is as close to as simple as a wood stove is and thats what my wife wants and she is a equal user of the boiler and I want her to be able to run it when Im not around.  

Thanks

~ Phil


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## willworkforwood (May 24, 2013)

mpilihp said:


> .... and only split wood bigger than 5-6 inches ....


I suggest that you buy an inexpensive moisture meter (~$20), and start taking readings of your wood (you didn't mention it, so I'm assuming you don't use one). Split these year old, 5-6" rounds down the middle and check the center of the inside surface with the MM. I expect you will find that the Maple and Birch are well over 25% MC, and the Oak around 35%. If so, this is the major contributor to your creosote and high wood usage.  The solution to this is to split everything small.  Your first reaction to splitting small is likely that it's more work. But on the plus side, you will burn less wood, so the work will basically be a wash. What's small? Some folks use the term "playing card size". That's around 2.5"x 3.5" and is the approximate split size that I use, along with 2 year seasoning.
The other contributor to creosote is idling. Idling can't be eliminated (if running without storage), but it can be significantly reduced by burning smaller, fires via more frequent lighter loads.  AKA right-sizing the fire.
Now you may not be especially wild about either of these two ideas, which is something I can understand.  But I will tell you with 100% certainty that they have been highly effective for me.  Yes, you can buy a Wood Gun, which is a great non-storage boiler, and will handle year old, 6" rounds without producing creosote (and the same lower efficiency).  But if it were me, I would try to solve the problem for 0 dollars, rather than 12K+.  Very much, JMHO.


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## mpilihp (May 25, 2013)

willworkforwood said:


> I suggest that you buy an inexpensive moisture meter (~$20), and start taking readings of your wood (you didn't mention it, so I'm assuming you don't use one). Split these year old, 5-6" rounds down the middle and check the center of the inside surface with the MM. I expect you will find that the Maple and Birch are well over 25% MC, and the Oak around 35%. If so, this is the major contributor to your creosote and high wood usage. The solution to this is to split everything small. Your first reaction to splitting small is likely that it's more work. But on the plus side, you will burn less wood, so the work will basically be a wash. What's small? Some folks use the term "playing card size". That's around 2.5"x 3.5" and is the approximate split size that I use, along with 2 year seasoning.
> The other contributor to creosote is idling. Idling can't be eliminated (if running without storage), but it can be significantly reduced by burning smaller, fires via more frequent lighter loads. AKA right-sizing the fire.
> Now you may not be especially wild about either of these two ideas, which is something I can understand. But I will tell you with 100% certainty that they have been highly effective for me. Yes, you can buy a Wood Gun, which is a great non-storage boiler, and will handle year old, 6" rounds without producing creosote (and the same lower efficiency). But if it were me, I would try to solve the problem for 0 dollars, rather than 12K+. Very much, JMHO.


 
Hi thanks for the suggestions, I will get a moisture meter and see where the wood is but I think its mainly due to idling as we burn 1 year seasoned wood as we did when we had a wood stove and we didnt have a creosote problem then.  Also the other thing that changed with the wood boiler was the oil boiler got its own power vent.  Before the oil boiler was sharing the chimney with the wood stove.  I wouldn't think the device the wood is in would make a difference other than if it was allowed to idle more which I think is the case.  I agree the oak is probable not seasoned enough in one year but burning 10-12 cord a year there isn't a chance Id ever get two seasons ahead, though we could split more but again that takes more time which we spend a lot of time gathering our wood now.

~ Phil


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## mpilihp (May 31, 2013)

willworkforwood said:


> I'm amazed that there have been no questions about your current system. Yes, New Yorker is a well-known dog, and the subject of numerous wild-eyed rants. And all here would agree that every boiler discussed would be better than what you have now. However, when you write that you need to clean your chimney once a week, well that jumps off the page at me. I'd expect to do better than that burning well-seasoned wood in a beer keg.
> 
> You didn't mention anything about getting smoked-out while reloading, so I'm going to assume that your draft is ok. But that may also be subject to further consideration. Other than a horrible rep, I don't know anything about a New Yorker, and if there are fire tubes (or anything else) that may be gumming up the works and needs to be cleaned. Aside from those two considerations, the only thing left is the wood that you're burning (which is where it usually ends up anyway).
> 
> You may be a long-time wood burner, and the following questions are not meant to offend. But "seasoned" is one of those words that has more than one meaning. The seasoned that firewood guys sell is not the same seasoned that I burn in my boiler. So can you describe: the typical dimensions (H x W) of your splits; which species of wood you primarily use; exactly how you season (open air, shed, combo); and finally what's the average seasoning time (i.e. between splitting/stacking and burning). Moisture meter readings of resplit wood is helpful information, if you use one. Before seeing your answers, I'm going to go out on a limb (or is it lame), and say I think you can use less wood and produce less creosote in your New Yorker by burning smaller, drier wood. Not trying to imply with any of this that you shouldn't get a new boiler, but it seems that a level set of your existing system should be done first.


Hello again so I got a cheapo moisture meter and went out and split some wood and took measurements.  Note the wood Im testing I cut down, chopped up and stacked last summer/fall not sure when  but I do this from April to October, basically  before and after bug season.  All tests were done after a fresh split in the middle of the piece.

Maple
2 1/2" Round - 19.1
4" Round - 25.2
6" Split - 24.2

Oak
4" Round - 27.7
6" Split - 27.0

Fir 4" Round - 18.6

I also burn Birch, Beech, Pine and Popular, hornbeam and a few  other oddballs my wife could name them.  Again this wood still has this summer to dry so I would think the numbers would drop alittle, also I this meter did not come with a conversion chart which Ive read most have to adjust for different wood types and temperature.  It was 86 outside when I did the tests and other meter descriptions stated the meter is ment for use at 70F deg so not sure how this affects the numbers.

Im thinking we probably should split down smaller but the six inch split number is pretty close to the 4 inch rounds...  So I agree  moisture could be part of the problem but we are doing the same as we did with our wood stove and we never had a creosote problem with it.

Thanks

~ Phil


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## BoilerMan (Jun 1, 2013)

mpilihp said:


> Im thinking we probably should split down smaller but the six inch split number is pretty close to the 4 inch rounds... So I agree moisture could be part of the problem but we are doing the same as we did with our wood stove and we never had a creosote problem with it.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> ~ Phil


 
I would argue that wood stoves are less likly to produce creosote that boilers due to the hotter surfaces inside them.  When you simply have free air cooling iron or steel the temps are much hotter than water cooled steel.  This is why stoves are fundemantally less efficient than boilers at transferring heat to the living space (or water).  This is a GENERAL rule, stoves with simmilar air and wood have higher stack temps and higher internal surface temps, so smoke is less likly to condense and form creosote.   Boilers are limited by the boiling point of water but are much better at transferring heat with a given surface area, this is why gasification boilers are WORLDS ahead of conventional water-jacked boilers, they burn the fire hot and cleanly, then pull the heat out of the flue gasses with an efficient fire-tube HX, giving a clean burn and really low stack temps high 200s to low 300s are what I see all winter, with nothing but grey fly ash in the flue from a whole season of burning.  When I has a conventional boiler I had to run the stack temps much higher to avoid creosote, smoke and increased wood consumption were the result.  

TS


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## Clg (Jun 1, 2013)

Hi, I am thinking of installing an owb and am looking at the eko 25.  I was wondering if anyone has had any experience dealing with the distributor New Horizon. Warrenty issues or problems getting parts?  I am also looking at econo burn but the price is much higher.  I appreciate any thoughts.  Thanks, clg.


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## willworkforwood (Jun 1, 2013)

You seem to be willing to consider suggestions and I can see you are evaluating the alternatives, which is a good thing.  The better you can do at burning 20% and less (with the emphasis on less), the better off you would be, both for creosote reduction and also wood usage.  If you couple that with right-sizing the fire whenever possible, I'm certain you would see a big improvement.  Now of course the flip-side is the extra work required for this, at least until you could get to 2 years ahead.   Everyone's situation is different.  My kids are grown and out of the house, so I can fit this wood processing into my schedule very easily without it being any big deal.  For many others however, putting that much time into firewood results in ever building resentment for that hunk of steel that's taking so much of their time.  So splitting smaller and trying to get 2 years ahead will be up to you. 
But just one other caution is that many gassers (mine included) do not work effectively (sans storage) with the MC that you're currently burning.   Higher MC doesn't cause creosote in the flue, but it does accumulate and drip from the loading door, and can also clog up the fire tubes.  So if you decide that you just can't afford the extra time involved with splitting smaller, and have the funds to buy a better boiler, the Wood Gun is the only basement-installed unit that I personally know can burn higher MC without having a creosote problem (again presuming no storage).   But there may be others that I'm not aware of which can also do this, so research carefully.  Good luck, regardless what you decide to do!


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## mpilihp (Jun 1, 2013)

willworkforwood said:


> You seem to be willing to consider suggestions and I can see you are evaluating the alternatives, which is a good thing. The better you can do at burning 20% and less (with the emphasis on less), the better off you would be, both for creosote reduction and also wood usage. If you couple that with right-sizing the fire whenever possible, I'm certain you would see a big improvement. Now of course the flip-side is the extra work required for this, at least until you could get to 2 years ahead. Everyone's situation is different. My kids are grown and out of the house, so I can fit this wood processing into my schedule very easily without it being any big deal. For many others however, putting that much time into firewood results in ever building resentment for that hunk of steel that's taking so much of their time. So splitting smaller and trying to get 2 years ahead will be up to you.
> But just one other caution is that many gassers (mine included) do not work effectively (sans storage) with the MC that you're currently burning. Higher MC doesn't cause creosote in the flue, but it does accumulate and drip from the loading door, and can also clog up the fire tubes. So if you decide that you just can't afford the extra time involved with splitting smaller, and have the funds to buy a better boiler, the Wood Gun is the only basement-installed unit that I personally know can burn higher MC without having a creosote problem (again presuming no storage). But there may be others that I'm not aware of which can also do this, so research carefully. Good luck, regardless what you decide to do!


Hi thanks, Ill be re-checking the MC this fall after summer to see what it truly ends up before the heating season and I will start splitting more this year.  As for getting two full years ahead I don't know if we can do that.  We cut 10-12 cord a year now, we did the push several years to get a full year ahead and it was a challenge.  Ill look further into the wood gun as well, thanks

~ Phil


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## mpilihp (Jun 1, 2013)

BoilerMan said:


> I would argue that wood stoves are less likly to produce creosote that boilers due to the hotter surfaces inside them. When you simply have free air cooling iron or steel the temps are much hotter than water cooled steel. This is why stoves are fundemantally less efficient than boilers at transferring heat to the living space (or water). This is a GENERAL rule, stoves with simmilar air and wood have higher stack temps and higher internal surface temps, so smoke is less likly to condense and form creosote. Boilers are limited by the boiling point of water but are much better at transferring heat with a given surface area, this is why gasification boilers are WORLDS ahead of conventional water-jacked boilers, they burn the fire hot and cleanly, then pull the heat out of the flue gasses with an efficient fire-tube HX, giving a clean burn and really low stack temps high 200s to low 300s are what I see all winter, with nothing but grey fly ash in the flue from a whole season of burning. When I has a conventional boiler I had to run the stack temps much higher to avoid creosote, smoke and increased wood consumption were the result.
> 
> TS


 
Hi TS your comment about the difference between wood stoves and water jack wood boilers makes sense.  But as for running higher stack temps Im not sure how I would do that with my boiler.  It has a bi-metal temp controller that monitors the water jacket temp to control the draft door.  I set it to close the draft door at 180 degs.  I also have a second electronic control that monitors the flue stack temp and when it gets up to 750 deg it starts to close the draft door as well and attempts to keep it at 500.  The motorized electronic control is basically just to keep the boiler from racing away when its starting up completely cold.  Once the water jacket is up to temp and cycling between 180 and 140 then its just the bi-metal lever that moves the draft door.  Bottom line is I don't know how to set it to run a hotter stack temp and still have it shut down at 180 deg. When its sub zero temps out, I crank it up so it wont shut fully at 180 to get it to cycle the hot water more often but I cant do that during the shoulder season or during the summer for heating water.

Thanks

~ Phil


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## BoilerMan (Jun 1, 2013)

Ok, that makes sense!  Storgae is the only solution to your problem then. 

TS


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## mpilihp (Jun 1, 2013)

BoilerMan said:


> Ok, that makes sense! Storgae is the only solution to your problem then.
> 
> TS


Well storage probably wont happen, I don't have room in my basement and my wife doesn't want some weird (as my wife said) out building or box outside the house.  Ill try splitting down smaller sizes and get a lower MC and if possible try to cute more so we get further ahead maybe a few years we can get 2 seasons ahead.

THanks

~ Phil


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## maple1 (Jun 1, 2013)

In your first post, you mentioned the possibility of a boiler in your garage (but wanting it in your basement). Someone else mentioned keeping a boiler in the basement & putting storage in the garage - is that at all a possibility? Storage tanks can also make great radiators - you would be sure to have a nice heated garage out of the deal too.


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## infinitymike (Jun 1, 2013)

Since storage is out, I highly recommend the Wood Gun.
I too am slightly hard pressed for room to put storage, that is why I bought the WG in the first place.
Although with every thing I have read here over the last 2 years, I would like to try and squeeze storage in somewhere.
Not because I have any problems with out it, just because it_* sounds*_ like it might make burning even easier.
And let me tell you, if your wife doesn't want any fancy gizmos, then the WG is for her.
*It's so easy*, even a caveman like me can do it.
I will say that I had a few issues in the beginning, but thats because other then a campfire,  I never burned before.
Along with soaking wet red oak that was c/s/s only 4 months before I started burning.
With your long term experience and the wood supply you already have, you'll be just fine, and getting a couple three years ahead shouldn't take much time at all.

The only creosote I have is in the firebox. 
Everything else is clean as whistle. 
Mine is in the garage which really makes it easy to get firewood next to it. 
I have my existing  oil burner( which is in the basement 70' away) hooked up as back up.
The first summer I used oil to heat the DHW but now that I have the indirect hooked up I am heating the DHW with wood and the oil burner hasn't been on since last year.

If you go to youtube and search Mike Tuto you'll find a bunch of videos I have posted about  the wood gun.
Scroll to the bottom of the videos and you'll find the first one I shot. Sorry that is so narrow, its my first video that I  ever shot  and I shot it with my phone in the vertical position
Hopefully they will help you in your decision. 
And if you decide to buy a WG you can join our supercool Wood Gun Club..... but don't tell anyone it exists, its a secret.


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## PassionForFire&Water (Jun 2, 2013)

infinitymike said:


> Since storage is out, I highly recommend the Wood Gun.


 
Why the WG does not require thermal storage?


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## mpilihp (Jun 2, 2013)

maple1 said:


> In your first post, you mentioned the possibility of a boiler in your garage (but wanting it in your basement). Someone else mentioned keeping a boiler in the basement & putting storage in the garage - is that at all a possibility? Storage tanks can also make great radiators - you would be sure to have a nice heated garage out of the deal too.


 
I hadn't thought of that, the concern Id have is the feed between the garage and the house if It is just water how would that hold up in the middle of winter if we were away for a week.  Ill have to think about it.

THanks  ~ Phil


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## mpilihp (Jun 2, 2013)

infinitymike said:


> Since storage is out, I highly recommend the Wood Gun.
> I too am slightly hard pressed for room to put storage, that is why I bought the WG in the first place.
> Although with every thing I have read here over the last 2 years, I would like to try and squeeze storage in somewhere.
> Not because I have any problems with out it, just because it_* sounds*_ like it might make burning even easier.
> ...


 
Hello Mike thanks, Ill look for your videos, so Im curious how long do you season your wood and have you ever checked it for moisture content?  How log of a burn do you get out of your wood gun and in the shoulder seasons does it do much idling?

THanks

~ Phil


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## mikefrommaine (Jun 2, 2013)

PassionForFire&Water said:


> Why the WG does not require thermal storage?


Because the marketing people at AHS say so.


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## muncybob (Jun 2, 2013)

Phil, we season our wood min 1 yr but try to get 2 unless it's oak and then it's 3+. My 1st year I had a mixture of well seasoned and not so well and the results were less than optimal. Now we are well stocked with seasoned wood and it makes a BIG difference.

The WG w/o storage will cycle a fair amount in shoulder season just like any boiler would if you don't have storage. The boiler can come with(or you can add) a cycle timer that brings in air at intervals to keep the coals hot. As Mike and others have said, the boiler itself is fairly simple to operate and maintain. With that said, it will have it's own learning curve initially but I suspect most units would.


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## muncybob (Jun 2, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> Because the marketing people at AHS say so.


 
Yes, they also say it can burn wood with 30% mc. I think anything can burn it but the results will be less than ideal.
There are a number of boilers that you are advised to NOT run w/o storage, WG is not one of them but just like any other boiler out there it would benefit from storage.


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## JP11 (Jun 2, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> Because the marketing people at AHS say so.


My answer was magic.. But your's is the same.


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## BoilerMan (Jun 2, 2013)

Ahhh the super-secret wood gun club.  I've heared rumors that......................  Anyhow, the wood gun comes with magic elves (or gremlins) that relight the fire after prolonged idle. 

Truly, it had an "air tight" damper that suffocates the fire, stopping the woodgas from burning.  This has been a much debated theory here, and a "suffocated" fire can't re-light itself, but the WG does.  This is how they say it "doesen't need storage".  In reality no boiler actually needs storage as long as it has a way to slow of stop the combustion process.  So basically and boiler gasser or not that is not totally dependant on natural draft and has some type of mechanically operated damper somehwere (before or after the fire).  

Most, and I'd argue all, boilers will benifit greatly from thermal storage.  If it's setup correctly and insulated to the hilt! 

TS


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## paragonbuilders (Jun 3, 2013)

Definetly a gasifier with storage is the best solution. If however you decide to stay with your current setup, maybe you can improve it a bit. 
My father has a central boiler and has no intentions of changing. So we built a firebox out of firebrick inside the burn chamber to help the fire burn hotter. Just with this he has noticed a big difference in smoke and amount of wood burned. He is keeping the fires small this time of year but with the fire brick it helps keep the coals hot. We will be adding a ceramic board above the fire to further keep te heat in before the fire hits te water jacket. Not gasification by any means but an improvement for sure. Of course after this winter we will know better. He has been burning 10-11 cord from oct- April. 
We shall see.....


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## infinitymike (Jun 4, 2013)

mpilihp said:


> Hello Mike thanks, Ill look for your videos, so Im curious how long do you season your wood and have you ever checked it for moisture content? How log of a burn do you get out of your wood gun and in the shoulder seasons does it do much idling?
> 
> THanks
> 
> ~ Phil


 
Well since I'm new to this whole wood burning operation I haven't been able to season/dry my wood long enough. I'm still trying to get ahead but I am shooting for a minimum of 2 years.
3 or more will be the optimum! The first season my wood was only 4-6 months old, this season it was a little better and was 8-10 months old.
This coming winter I have 7 cord of oak that will be just under 2 years. I have another 18 cord that is 5 months old so it will be 2 year old stuff by the winter of 14/15 and 3 year old stuff by 15/16.
Now I just have to maintain this and I'll have a constant 3 year old supply

yes I have a MM by General that I got at Lowes. On average the stuff I've been burning is between 25-30% Although there was some ower stuff.
In the dead of this past winter I was getting about 8-10 hours on one load.
Basically load it up at 6am, come home around 3pm and probably reload again, around 10pm I will top it off for the night. 
The shoulder season varies. But can be up to 12 hours or better.
My wife is home all day and she has no problem checking on it during the day and if it needs it she'll throw some in.


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## mpilihp (Jun 5, 2013)

paragonbuilders said:


> Definetly a gasifier with storage is the best solution. If however you decide to stay with your current setup, maybe you can improve it a bit.
> My father has a central boiler and has no intentions of changing. So we built a firebox out of firebrick inside the burn chamber to help the fire burn hotter. Just with this he has noticed a big difference in smoke and amount of wood burned. He is keeping the fires small this time of year but with the fire brick it helps keep the coals hot. We will be adding a ceramic board above the fire to further keep te heat in before the fire hits te water jacket. Not gasification by any means but an improvement for sure. Of course after this winter we will know better. He has been burning 10-11 cord from oct- April.
> We shall see.....


That sounds interesting, how much firebrick did you line the burn chamber with?  the bottom and half way up the sides?  THen the ceramic board to line the top side?   That doesn't hamper heat transfer to the water too much?

Are you able to curve the ceramic board to match the curve of the firebox?  (mine is curved, not sure if his is)

THanks

~ Phil


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## paragonbuilders (Jun 28, 2013)

Sorry Phil, I missed this. I put a layer of firebrick on the bottom. Then up the sides and back to within 6" of the top. The ceramic board will sit on top of the brick forcing the smoke back towards the front where there will be a 6" space allowing smoke to rise into the top of the "combustion chamber", water jacket for heat exchange to take place.  Then it must travel down the sides of the water jacket before heading back to the flue. Effectively we built an insulated firebox inside the water jacket so we can achieve higher temps to get more complete combustion. We will be adding insulation to the door to prevent warping from the additional heat. Something to consider... Not sure if it is necessary. After getting the board installed my friend will bring his combustion meter over and we will try to fine tune it. We may decide to add some secondary air.
So far it is already a great improvement.
Also for the summer we run it up to about 200 degrees and shut it down til it drops to about 130. And try to put just enough wood in to get it there. Nice long hot burns.
Dan


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