# DIY surveyors transit



## RustyShackleford (Mar 9, 2011)

Anybody done much DIY surveying ?

My problem is pretty simple.   By using hand-held GPS (which is nowhere near accurate enough, by itself, to locate survey irons), and curve fitting my GPS readings to the known bearings and distances of my lot lines, I have managed to predict the GPS coordinates of the ones I could not find, and thereby locate them (the hand-held GPS could get me within a 20ft circle or so).

So I now have found all my property irons (or "monuments"), and I now need to try to flag one of the lot lines.   (This is to help the loggers who have the timber easement on the neighboring property to not trespass on my property again - but that's a whole 'nother story).   The line is about 900ft long and heavily wooded, a lot of it pretty scrubby stuff that is nasty to clear through.   So I can't just eyeball the line between the two irons and flag trees, because I can't come anywhere close to seeing one iron while standing at the other.   So I need to transit the line (I guess that's the right verb).  I tried it with a hand-held hikers' compass (with flip-up sighting mirror) and missed the other iron by about 20ft. That's about 1-degree accuracy, which I think is pretty good for hand-held, but the 20ft error at the other end is certainly not good enough for flagging the line.   And it's not even good enough for clearing the line - I don't want to have to clear a 20ft-wide swath !

So I have built a home-made surveyors transit, roughly as described here:

http://chestofbooks.com/crafts/popu...s-to-Do/How-To-Make-A-Surveyor-s-Transit.html

I haven't tried it yet, so more later ...


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## jimbom (Mar 9, 2011)

Rent a transit.  But if it is heavily wooded, a transit may not help unless you cut a lot of brush.   I think you will need a better instrument than the homemade for your offsets etc.  Right now is the best time in my woods to clear the line.  Soon things will leaf out and sight lines will be gone.


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## WhitePine (Mar 9, 2011)

I had the same problem, but a better neighbor. He showed the loggers the corner monuments and told them not to cross the line. I guess the "crap" trees they pushed down hill onto my property didn't count as timber. 

Without a real survey crew and pro equipment, I don't know how you are going to do it. I do know Jimbo is right. Now's the best time if you are going to attempt to flag it by yourself.


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## Prosecond (Mar 9, 2011)

I used to buy timber and have located miles of boundary lines using a compass, property survey information, and evidence located on the ground.  http://www.benmeadows.com/search/compass/31224855/


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## RustyShackleford (Mar 9, 2011)

Deleted ...


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## RustyShackleford (Mar 9, 2011)

Absolutely right that now is the time to do it.    If not the leafing-out, then the ticks etc.

Prosecond, that compass claims to be accurate to 2-degrees.   Mine is very similar and I think I can probably get 1-degree.   But still, over a 900ft line, 1-degree translates to about 15 feet.    That's not good enough for flagging a property line.

The neighboring property owner does not care.   I called him and he was pretty unfriendly, pretty much claiming that it was the timber company's fault, not his; I think he's probably correct.  The value of the timber is about $1000/acre I'm told, or about $600 for the 60ft x 900ft pie-slice of the trespass.   Even with the usual treble-damages, that's about $2K, so no way it'd be feasible to litigate, with the surveying and legal fees.  But it's irrelevant, because it's been about 8 years, well pass the statute of limitations on trespass, I'm told.   So my approach is simply to mark my line very definitively - maybe even a crude fence.

I definitely am up for cutting a bunch of brush, and once that's done, maybe I can even get a clear shot; I can certainly cover the line with two shots.   So I don't think I need a real transit.   Plus I just like building things myself.   I just want to minimize the width of brush I have to cut.

As best I can tell, the main source of imprecision in my home-made transit will simply be how  closely I can get the compass to a given bearing.   Not quite sure how to improve on that.   Otherwise, the "scope" is just a piece of 2" PVC about 18" long, with a peephole at one end and crosshairs at the other.   The whole thing is mounted in a wooden  frame, with pivots for elevation.  It has a bulls-eye bubble level on top, and I check the the elevation pivot is perfectly vertical using a 4ft carpenters level; I also make sure the compass mounting (onto the frame) is aligned with the PVC.  I think the precision in these two things is well under 1-degree ... BUT, it seems tough to read a compass that is only about 2" in diameter to closer than 1-degree.  Hopefully no compass deviation, as the whole thing is made of wood and plastic, and the few screws are brass, which apparently is non-ferrous (who knew ?, but I held one near the needle and it is), and mounted on a nice aluminum photographic tripod.   Of course the compass has a magnetic declination adjustment, with the right setting from:

http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomagmodels/struts/calcDeclination

I can also sorta calibrate the thing by shooting one of my shorter property lines (where I can see one corner from the other).


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## jebatty (Mar 9, 2011)

Just do the best you can to mark the line, and leave a 50' buffer between the cut and property line you measure. If your line measurement is off 20', you still are on your own property. I own forest land, and I would be really *issed if a neighbor did a cut that trespassed into my land, unless we first agreed on the cut line. Almost the same, well not quite, as the neighbor jumping in bed with my wife and claiming he didn't know because it was dark.

I also have a hand-held sighting compass good to 1/2 degree, a GPS (Delorme) usually accurate to 8' +/-, and working the two together can get a line very close to actual. And based on surveys I've paid for in the past, my line has been better. I've had 3 surveys on one piece of property, and the surveys have disagreed by nearly 50' on the corners over a 900' line. 

And in considering corners, they are only as good as the survey which placed them, which around here means they aren't worth much unless the adjoining property owner agrees on the corners. Historical surveys can be notoriously inaccurate, and the phrase "war of the surveyors" takes on added meaning when a person ends up in court.


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## peakbagger (Mar 9, 2011)

I used to have incredible luck with a Suunto Sighting compass (KB14?) for clearing lines. The other bizzare solution that I encountered from a survey crew log from many years ago was "ballon" surveying. A major right of way I was reestablishing  with a transit had originally been laid out by a crew which would attach a helium ballon to a known point in the woods on a calm day. Then the surveyor would sight the balloon frokm anotehr known point and drop the transit head. From there, he would clear a line until he could see the point. It was a pipeline right of way so there were long runs of several thousand feet whihc were ladi out with this method. I expect you could modify this somewhat by offsetting form the neighbors line a few feet at both ends and then clearing line on your property so he cant complain. 

When they came up with laser surveying stations it made it a lot easier, just run a crooked line through the woods, plot it out on the computer and then come back and set points on the line from the intemediate traverse points. YOu may get lucky and be able to rent a surveying station but most ental places only rent to licensed land surveyors. If you are anywhere near Duplin County, Blanchard Surveying treated me right for a project down there a few years back.  

This all works as long as the monumentation on the ground is accepted by both parties, if there is a dispute it can get expensive. One thing I always make sure to do is to drive two steel pins at each boundary point. One sticking out of the ground and one driven about 6" deep. That way if one goes "wandering", the deep one is still there and can be picked up with a metal detector and reestablished.


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## kettensÃ¤ge (Mar 9, 2011)

Isn't this the neighbors responsibility?

Thought I saw a cheap transit at harbor freight last time I was there.


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## semipro (Mar 9, 2011)

If you can buy or borrow a GPS unit that is WAAS enabled then it will be much more accurate (+/- a meter) than a standard unit.  If you can get sufficient signal despite the trees you might be able to track the line using GPS.  I"m pretty sure there's some free software out there that would help.


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## homebrewz (Mar 9, 2011)

You might check your local zoning laws. There might be a buffer area or boundary required for such activities when they get close to property lines. 

I had a prof in college that used to survey caves with a Brunton compass, and would often be able to close the loop within about 6", so it can be done. 
Perhaps flagging 10' or 20' above one of the monuments vertically would help it be more easily seen from the other end? Perhaps establishing a tie point would help. Now, I'm not great with geometry, but I seem to remember transit operators using tie points, or making a triangle, when we would have to move the transit to another location.


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## djblech (Mar 9, 2011)

I have a PLS 90 laser for setting up foundations. It gives you 2 90* vertical planes and has a detector that beeps when you are in line. That way you could hold it up and get a beep to keep you going straight. Good luck, I don't know many loggers that get to concerned about property lines.
Doug


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## jebatty (Mar 9, 2011)

> Good luck, I donâ€™t know many loggers that get to concerned about property lines.



That's usually because the logging contract makes the landowner responsible to hold the logger harmless due to a cut across the property line, and the landowner is responsible to set that line. Treble damages for timber trespass can get expensive.


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## pyper (Mar 9, 2011)

For a single straight line have you considered hiring a surveyor? Maybe your neighbor would pay part?

I marked my property line using a laser, but it was only about 200 feet and fairly clear. I measured out three feet from the two pins, pointed the laser from one to the other, and then measured back and set fence posts. No particular reason to do it, I just wanted to know where it was. No fence, just some metal posts.

At our new house the lady next door says that some guys doing some tree work removed the pin from the one corner. WTF? She points to a brick and says "It was near there." Trying to decide if I want to get a surveyor to come out and put in a new pin or just measure from the others.

We were looking at one house and the owner says, "It's my understanding that the fence there is 2 feet on my side of the property line." Doh!


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## firefighterjake (Mar 9, 2011)

pyper said:
			
		

> For a single straight line have you considered hiring a surveyor? Maybe your neighbor would pay part?
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> I marked my property line using a laser, but it was only about 200 feet and fairly clear. I measured out three feet from the two pins, pointed the laser from one to the other, and then measured back and set fence posts. No particular reason to do it, I just wanted to know where it was. No fence, just some metal posts.
> 
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Had a similar experience . . . actually two similar experiences . . . neighbor kid pulled up one stake since he apparently didn't know what it was . . . and the other neighbor bulldozed another stake when they put in a new driveway. Fortunately, before the one neighbor moved he replaced the stake . . . and on the other side it's pretty easy to see where my line begins due to the stone wall.


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## homebrewz (Mar 9, 2011)

If your neighbor still gives you a hard time just tell him you're surveying because of the gas lease you just signed.


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## RustyShackleford (Mar 9, 2011)

My neighbor isn't giving me a hard time.   I think I can do what I want, within reason.   But I am SOL on any damages due to the time that has gone by.   I was unable to locate the iron that definitively shows the trespass until quite recently.    I also located another of the neighbor's irons, and measured the distance to this iron I recently found (the one along the line between our two properties), and it jibes with the line distance in HIS deed.  So I'm quite comfortable that it's the correct iron.  I am told that irons in the ground ("physical evidence") trump most anything, around here at least.    

I don't feel like giving him ANY property back on the flagging and line-cutting, so I'm gonna dead-center that as best I can.   Of course if I do something permanent like a fence I will probably back off a few feet, as folks advise.

The idea of helium balloon is very clever; I thought of that myself    I think it'd need to be about 100ft high, and couldn't quite figure out how to get a balloon big enough for that (I guess it'd have to be able to lift 100ft of whatever line I use).   I don't think a bundle of party balloons would do it, but maybe ...

Where would I rent a WAAS-enabled GPS ?

Thanks for all your thoughts, folks.


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## pyper (Mar 9, 2011)

If you have a laptop, you can get this WAAS receiver with software for $59:

http://shop.delorme.com/OA_HTML/DELibeCCtdItemDetail.jsp?item=31205&section=10122

It supposedly increases your accuracy to 3m.


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## midwestcoast (Mar 10, 2011)

If you really want to nail it with GPS you can do much better than the WAAS accuracy. Trimble has handhelds that will get you sub-foot, even down to a few inches in real-time. Pricey though, maybe $75 a day for the real high end units.
I've rented from these folks for work   http://www.compasstoolsinc.com    Give a call & see if they have something user-friendly that would work for you.  Start your rental on a Friday, I think weekends are free so 1 day is all you'd pay.


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## jebatty (Mar 10, 2011)

A wrinkle once you are able to obtain accurate info is that the probability is high it won't match what's on the ground as to historical boundary lines, or at least where people thought the boundary lines were. So you may be "right" and "wrong" at the same time. If there is a discrepancy, you still have to deal with neighbors if your newly found line trips into what they think is their property; and if the line falls inside what you thought was your property, then you might want to "shut-up" and leave well enough alone. 

I located what I believed to be close to a boundary line, and found that the line started close to where I thought one corner was, but the other corner 1/2 mile away that I located was about 75' on the other side of a fence line that I thought might be the boundary, but never was very sure due to other evidence on the ground. I contacted the neighbor 2 years ago, showed what I found, and so far at least we seem to be in agreement that what I found probably is correct. I promptly marked and cleared the newly found line.


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## Prosecond (Mar 10, 2011)

All landowners should mark their lines with either paint on the trees or metal t posts.  Can prevent a  lot of problems in the future.


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## semipro (Mar 10, 2011)

midwestcoast said:
			
		

> If you really want to nail it with GPS you can do much better than the WAAS accuracy. Trimble has handhelds that will get you sub-foot, even down to a few inches in real-time. Pricey though, maybe $75 a day for the real high end units.
> I've rented from these folks for work   http://www.compasstoolsinc.com    Give a call & see if they have something user-friendly that would work for you.  Start your rental on a Friday, I think weekends are free so 1 day is all you'd pay.



Unless I'm mistaken getting that level of accuracy requires that you either set up a basestation transceiver or make use of a nearby one to get "differential" accuracy.  I hope I"m wrong.  WAAS receivers however are real-time and require none of this.  They use a 2nd set of satellites for correction data.  

Also, even when GPS is not "accurate" it is relatively "precise".  In other words, whatever error its reading at one location is likely the same error nearby so use it for relative location WRT a known absolute location. 

If you have as many trees as it sounds like I don't think GPS is going to work anyway, especially after the leaves come in.


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## WhitePine (Mar 10, 2011)

Semipro said:
			
		

> If you have as many trees as it sounds like I don't think GPS is going to work anyway, especially after the leaves come in.



Some units with a very good receiver will work in the woods even after the trees leaf out. I bought a particular Garmin because they explicitly stated it would pick up signals under the canopy. It works fine.


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## WhitePine (Mar 10, 2011)

I've been looking at various state forestry sites recently. I noticed that some states strongly recommend or even require that buffer zones of uncut trees be left along the boundary lines when a property is logged.  If you haven't already done so, you might want to check into NC's rules and see if they require buffer zones.


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## semipro (Mar 10, 2011)

WhitePine said:
			
		

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I guess it depends on the definition of "works".  Accuracy of GPS is dependent upon a number of things and one is how many satellites are "visible" to the receiver and being used for location calculations.  While the unit may give a location with several satellites, the accuracy increases as more satellites are used. I typically look for 7.   

If you happen to use yours in the woods, I'd like to hear back as to how many satellites your receiver sees.  It may be time for me to look into getting a new unit if they've improved that much. 

Thanks.


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## jebatty (Mar 10, 2011)

> Also, even when GPS is not â€œaccurateâ€ it is relatively â€œpreciseâ€.  In other words, whatever error its reading at one location is likely the same error nearby so use it for relative location WRT a known absolute location.



Is this verifiable by data, or is the "error" like a scatter along the actual line, as readings are taken along the "line.," some readings on one side and some on the other, and maybe some actually on the line. 

I usually can get reliably 8' +/-, sometimes a little better. I've staked the reading points and then "sight-averaged" between the various stakes to get what I thought might be quite close to the actual line.


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## WhitePine (Mar 10, 2011)

Semipro said:
			
		

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I don't remember how many it saw and there are no leaves at the moment to check.  I do remember it typically could find a 

waypoint within 10 to 15 feet of its actual location. Here's a link to the model I have.

http://www.amazon.com/Garmin-GPSMAP...2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1299778725&sr=1-2


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## RustyShackleford (Mar 10, 2011)

jebatty said:
			
		

> A wrinkle once you are able to obtain accurate info is that the probability is high it won't match what's on the ground as to historical boundary lines, or at least where people thought the boundary lines were.


Maybe I don't exactly understand you, but ... What's on the ground is the irons I have found and intend to clear and flag a line in-between.  As far as "what is thought", the main thing I have is the neighbor's deed.  The line in question is my southern line and his northern.   The piece logged in (likely) error is a pie-shaped slice, 900ft long (the length of our common line), zero feet wide at my SW corner, and 60ft wide at my SE corner (which is his NE corner).  I'm pretty sure this was due to the loggers finding a well-marked iron that is 60ft north of my SE corner, along my eastern property line; it marks the junction of two lots to the east of us.   This is not surprising, as I only located my true SE corner recently, and it was not flagged at all and pretty much flush with the ground.  The reason I'm pretty sure it's right is that it is the correct distance (60ft) from the iron they apparently used, as it is shown on my plat.  More importantly, I located my neighbors SE iron, and measured (fairly carefully, with a cloth tape, so I'd venture to say only a few feet error) the distance from his SE corner to what I believe is my true SE corner; it agreed very closely to the length of his eastern line as shown on his deed.   If anyone thought that the other iron (the one 60ft north of what I call my true SE corner) was his, then the distance I measured would have been 60ft less than what is shown on his deed; it was not.   Make sense ?  



> If you havenâ€™t already done so, you might want to check into NCâ€™s rules and see if they require buffer zones.


Again, I think I'm past the statute of limitations, so I imagine this is pointless.   I DID check the deed for the timber easement, and it says nothing about the owner being responsible for the boundaries.

All ths GPS discussion is interesting, but sounds like a lot of trouble and expense.   I am getting fairly interested in the idea of using a helium balloon though.   THis outfit:

http://www.dealersupplyshop.com/55-Cloudbuster-Chloroprene-Balloon_p_350.html

... has a 5+ foot diameter balloon.  I calculate about 4lb buoyancy.   Should be plenty to lift 100-150ft of mason's twine (should be strong enough and the 12oz weight of the balloon).   Gotta see if I can get it inflated locally.  The total cost should be only $50 or so and it sounds like a barrel of fun, and I get to keep the balloon ...


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## RustyShackleford (Mar 10, 2011)

Prosecond said:
			
		

> All landowners should mark their lines with either paint on the trees or metal t posts.  Can prevent a  lot of problems in the future.


What is a metal T post ?


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## midwestcoast (Mar 10, 2011)

Semipro said:
			
		

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Nope, that's for handheld units. Trimble GeoXH is one I've used and got consistant sub-foot accuracy:  http://www.trimble.com/mappingGIS/geoxh6000.aspx?dtID=applications&
Technology sure is evolving fast.  Even with just handhelds if you have post-processing software you can get down near or under an inch I think, but not real-time.  RTK set-ups with base stations tied in to a USGS monument can get you down to fractions of an inch real time and are way too complicated to just rent & start using. I've only used them once and spent several hours on the phone with tech support working through problems in rental units.  We were working on a cool project to develop the ability to detect, map and catagorize unexploded ordinance using aerial equipment so a few inches here or there was pretty imortant to the guys out there with shovels  

All that said trees still affect precision and I agree GPS is not the best option here.  The baloon looks like way more fun. And easier.


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## WhitePine (Mar 11, 2011)

RustyShackleford said:
			
		

> > If you havenâ€™t already done so, you might want to check into NCâ€™s rules and see if they require buffer zones.
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> Again, I think I'm past the statute of limitations, so I imagine this is pointless.   I DID check the deed for the timber easement, and it says nothing about the owner being responsible for the boundaries.



My suggestion was related to future logging activities, not past events.  You indicated the main reason for your efforts was to keep the loggers off of your property in the future.

_"This is to help the loggers who have the timber easement on the neighboring property to not trespass on my property again - but thatâ€™s a whole â€˜nother story"
_
Finding out what their legal responsibilities are regarding logging near a boundary line, if any, would be an important step.  NC rules in that regard probably would not appear in the easement.


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## WhitePine (Mar 11, 2011)

RustyShackleford said:
			
		

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Those are the metal posts that are commonly used with barbed wire and some other wire fences.  They are T shaped in section, hence the name.


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## RustyShackleford (Mar 11, 2011)

WhitePine said:
			
		

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Gotcha.   Thanks.   The easement DOES state that logging shall be done in accordance with North Carolina Forestry Service Best Practices Guidelines for Water Quality; I can't find it online, except for the Table of Contents, but it doesn't appear to address this issue. I suppose if there WERE such a restriction, it might apply to my line-clearing activities, but it's hard to believe a surveyor doesn't have the right to clear line.


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## RustyShackleford (Mar 11, 2011)

midwestcoast said:
			
		

> All that said trees still affect precision and I agree GPS is not the best option here.  The baloon looks like way more fun. And easier.


Yeah, and cheaper even than I indicated in my last mention of this.   Calling places to inflate that big balloon, turns out I can buy a 3-ft diameter balloon, filled, for $10, about a 10min drive from my place.   My ciphering says the thing will have about a pound of buoyancy (not counting the balloon's weight).   I've got a new roll of mason's line that weighs less that 4oz and is 325-ft long and is plenty strong.   So I figure since I only need 100-150 feet of elevation, I'm under 2oz for the tether, so probably good to go.   If not, I go buy a second balloon.   I guess I'm ok with aviation stuff; I know aircraft are generally required to fly a minimum of 500 feet AGL (above ground level) except near airports (duh).


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## semipro (Mar 11, 2011)

RustyShackleford said:
			
		

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Seems like it would have to be dead calm for this to work well.  What are the chances of that happening at the same time you're able to and willing to go out and survey?


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## RustyShackleford (Mar 11, 2011)

Semipro said:
			
		

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Well, not DEAD calm, I should be able to eyeball, from the angle of the twine, how far the thing has drifted.
But you're right, it needs to be pretty damn calm.   I'm not working right now, so I can pretty much cherry-pick
when to do it, and with wunderground.com's detailed forecasts I can be pretty confident that it'll be calm for the
next two hours if they say it will be ...    Or get up at the crack of dawn the next day, winds are almost always
calm then, barring a front coming through.


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## semipro (Mar 11, 2011)

RustyShackleford said:
			
		

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Let us know how it goes.  I need to define our property boundaries too and I have some big trees to work around.


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## peakbagger (Mar 11, 2011)

Its great that you are going to give the ballon a try. If you know how high it is (length of masons twine) and can determine the angle of the string (a couple of peices of wood and a protractor or an angle finder) when the wind is drifitng it, you can do some elementary math and figure out how to compensate for the drift. Of course if the wind is drifting it at an angle to the property line other than 90 degrees it requires a bit more calculating. 

I dont have access to the old survey notes anymore so I dont know how they got around the wind but they did survey several miles of right of way in hardwoods using this method to get the initial clearing done.    

Sounds like a fun experiment no matter what the outcome.


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## RustyShackleford (Mar 11, 2011)

peakbagger said:
			
		

> Its great that you are going to give the ballon a try. If you know how high it is (length of masons twine) and can determine the angle of the string (a couple of peices of wood and a protractor or an angle finder) when the wind is drifitng it, you can do some elementary math and figure out how to compensate for the drift. Of course if the wind is drifting it at an angle to the property line other than 90 degrees it requires a bit more calculating.


The property line is due E/W, which is close to the prevailing wind direction, so maybe the N-S component of the wind vector will be minimal.   Of course, the string might very well be curved, if the wind velocity is not constant along its height, which is pretty likely.


> Sounds like a fun experiment no matter what the outcome.


No doubt !


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## RustyShackleford (Mar 12, 2011)

Update (I know folks are just dying to hear  ) today I cleared enough that there's now a tree, about halfway along the 900 foot line, that I can see from both corners.  Tomorrow I'll take the home-made transit out there and see if I get the same bearing (modulo-180 degrees) to the tree from both corners.  If I do, and since I think the transit is better than 1-degree of precision, for 400-500ft (the distance from each corner to the tree), that means the tree is within 8ft or so of the line.

P.S. In case anyone was wondering how I got 8ft, it's helpful to think of angles in terms of "radians"; there are 2*pi radians in a circle.  So a radian is about 57 degrees.  So a 1-degree error gives an error of about 8 feet at 400-500ft away (dividing 450 by 57).


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## LLigetfa (Mar 12, 2011)

Surveys are just opinions and opinions can change.  New surveys often vary from the old one.  My property is a half mile long, 300 foot wide strip taken from a quarter section.  The original quarter section survey line was where the fence was put but the most recent (25 year old) survey put the fence in the wrong spot.  When I bought the property the survey line had grown in but I was able to locate the "stubble" and blaze marks and opened back up enough of it to satisfy the building inspector that my house was being built with the required clearances.  At first the bank was insisting on a new survey.  I asked the reason and they cited that they wanted assurance the house was not encroaching throwing the value in jeopardy.  I argued that I satisfied the building inspector and they accepted it.

I managed to locate two steel pegs on the West side but both pegs had been knocked out of place by ditch dredging and so could not rely on them for DIY surveying.  THey were close enough however to locate the old survey.  Following the stubble on one line a half mile back, I located a third undisturbed steel peg.  The fourth should be easy to find and those two could be used for a DIY survey.

I am concerned that some day the adjacent land will be logged.  My plan is to make a trade with the logger cut me a wide berth near my house and take the equivalent from the back half.


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## RustyShackleford (Mar 15, 2011)

Winds 2mph Thurs afternoon, and more or less parallel to the lot-line.   We could have a "go" on the balloon, Houston !


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## pyper (Mar 15, 2011)

Semipro said:
			
		

> Also, even when GPS is not "accurate" it is relatively "precise".  In other words, whatever error its reading at one location is likely the same error nearby so use it for relative location WRT a known absolute location.



On occasion I have left the laptop running in the car while I leave the car parked for a long time. When I get back, I notice that the GPS has left a trail of loops. Most of the loops are fairly small, and centered on one point, but a few of the loops are pretty large.

Since what I do doesn't depend on the GPS to be more accurate than determining what block I'm on, I've never bothered to try to determine the size of the loops.

So I guess over a short period of time it would probably be pretty accurate for relative measurements, but those occasional long loops would definitely want to make me do a few passes to see if I go the same answer. 

One time I had in mind using GPS to do a poor man's topo, but when I took the thing out in the field and started watching the elevation, it never stopped moving up and down!


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## jebatty (Mar 15, 2011)

If you can find one good corner, that along with your metes & bounds property description, Google Earth, and a higher quality handheld GPS, might get you quite close to your boundaries. If you use Google Earth, check the date of the photos, because I believe the newer ones are more accurate than the older ones. My area has 2009 photos. A corner of our property has a quarter corner "plugged" into the pavement of the highway on the section line. I took the GPS coordinates at that point, entered those into Google Earth, and Google Earth located the corner as close as the eye could see to its actual physical location. From that known point and some surveys which located other lines, I was able to accurately map our entire property.


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## RustyShackleford (Mar 16, 2011)

jebatty said:
			
		

> If you can find one good corner, that along with your metes & bounds property description, Google Earth, and a higher quality handheld GPS, might get you quite close to your boundaries.


You must not have read the whole thread (NOT that I blame you).    But I know exactly where all my corners are, as I have located all the irons (or "monuments").   My problem is simply clearing and flagging a line between two of them.   Unfortunately, it is the longest line on my property, at just under 900ft, and since my jerkwad neighbor logged into my property years ago, it is overgrown with lots of saplings, honey suckle, and briars.   Oh well, at least no poison ivy to speak of, count my blessings ...


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## jebatty (Mar 16, 2011)

> RustyS: But I know exactly where all my corners are, as I have located all the irons (or â€œmonumentsâ€).



When I mentioned a "good corner," I didn't necessarily mean your monuments or irons. If you didn't have a jerkwad neighbor, everything could be a lot easier. One very good thing to do in a rural area is to agree with the neighbors on the boundary lines, hopefully as found by your parcel monuments, and then clear and maintain the line sufficiently so that no one, intentionally or not, can alter the boundary lines in the future.

This might vary at different places around the country, but in our area a survey does not start with the parcel monuments, instead that's where it ends. What I meant by a "good corner" is that the survey starts from an established section corner monument or other government placed monument (in either case other identifying criteria also need to be met before even that monument is accepted as valid), and then the surveyor does (perhaps repeats) the survey work to locate (re-locate) the corners of the parcel in question. If all works well, this survey work will show "found monuments," including hopefully your corners, where they are supposed to be, and "placed monuments," those newly placed by the surveyor. The survey also will show where monuments were supposed to be but cannot be found, maybe those intentionally moved by someone or disturbed unknowingly. MN law requires surveyors to file their surveys with the county surveyor so that they are available to the public. Our county also is actively locating or relocating section corners throughout the county, which is expensive and therefore a slow process. Those section corners are invaluable for a variety of purposes.

Near where I live there are two quarter section monuments under the pavement of a state highway, and the pavement is bored through to mark where these monuments are. We also have one other marker of some sort located in a field near the highway which I think is used by satellites as a calibrating or reference point. I used those quarter section monuments under the pavement to locate the corners of our property, which included verifying the location of found parcel corner monuments identified by other surveys I had access to. Fortunately, part of our property fronts on the state highway, so that boundary is pretty clear.


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## RustyShackleford (Mar 16, 2011)

jebatty said:
			
		

> > RustyS: But I know exactly where all my corners are, as I have located all the irons (or â€œmonumentsâ€).
> 
> 
> 
> When I mentioned a "good corner," I didn't necessarily mean your monuments or irons. If you didn't have a jerkwad neighbor, everything could be a lot easier. One very good thing to do in a rural area is to agree with the neighbors on the boundary lines, hopefully as found by your parcel monuments, and then clear and maintain the line sufficiently so that no one, intentionally or not, can alter the boundary lines in the future.



Thanks Jim.  I should be clear on one thing.  My issue with my neighbor is not that he disagrees with me on the location of our boundary.  It's simply that he granted an easement that allowed the logging company to **** his land, and the loggers crossed up to 60 feet over the boundary line (what I _think_ to be the boundary line) into my land.  The neighbor's attitude is simply that it's the logging company's fault, not his, and that sounds like it might be correct.  I can see how the logging company made the the error, because I only found my SE iron recently, and after having searched for it a number of times over the past 15 years with no luck; I only found it because I used GPS readings (from an inaccurate handheld device) and some curve-fitting (to my metes and bounds) to estimate the GPS coordinates of the lost iron.   And there it was, pretty much flush with the ground, and not flagged at all.   I did two measurements which confirm to me that this iron is my correct SE corner.    First, it is 60ft north to another iron along my eastern line; this is shown as such on the plat of my land, and is a corner between two lots in the subdivision immediately east of mine (and the logged lot).   It seems pretty clear that this is the iron that the loggers incorrectly assumed to be my SE corner (and thus the NE corner of the area to which they were granted a timber easement).  Second, I located what seems to be the SE corner of the neighbor's lot.  I measured the distance from this iron, along my neighbor's eastern boundary, to the iron I recently located, that I believe to be my true SE corner.   I used a 100ft cloth tape, and the distance agreed, within a few feet, to the length of his eastern line as shown in his deed.   So even though this was far from a full survey, it gives me a pretty strong indication that there is no real disagreement that the iron I found indicates the eastern end of the true boundary line between me and my neighbor (my SE corner and his NE corner).   My goal now is to, as you say, maintain that line clearly.   Make sense ?


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## jebatty (Mar 16, 2011)

> Rusty S: Make sense ?



Yes, and I understand your situation. You may want to talk to a consulting forester and, if too much time has not gone by, consider making a claim against the logger, if there is enough value to pursue this. If as you say this was the logger's fault, then it is the responsibility of the logger to locate the boundary lines and pay damages (treble?) for trees taken on someone else's property. The consulting forester should be able to give good advice on this.


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## RustyShackleford (Mar 17, 2011)

jebatty said:
			
		

> > Rusty S: Make sense ?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, and I understand your situation. You may want to talk to a consulting forester and, if too much time has not gone by, consider making a claim against the logger, if there is enough value to pursue this. If as you say this was the logger's fault, then it is the responsibility of the logger to locate the boundary lines and pay damages (treble?) for trees taken on someone else's property. The consulting forester should be able to give good advice on this.



Certainly I thought about making a claim.   But I've heard informally, that the timber was probably worth about $1000 an acre, and it was about 0.6 acres, so $600, treble would be about $2000.    I would likely exceed that for surveyor and legal fees.   I guess, in theory, the neighbor would have to pay those if I won the suit.   Also, it's apparently "trespass", and a lawyer informally told me that he was pretty sure the statute of limitations was something like 3 years - and it's been about 8 years.

Another neighbor (friendly one who actually lives near me), suggested writing the timber company a letter, and maybe they're lawyer-phobic enough that they might just write a $600 check and be glad.


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## RustyShackleford (Mar 18, 2011)

Oh well.  Got a dozen helium balloons today for $10 (similar lift to one 3 footer, but more "survivability").  Too much "drift".   Even with a buddy on cellphone contact, so he could tell me when the balloon drifted above the property line, it was no-go.    The balloon just kept getting blown down into nearby trees.    Today was the most windless day (4mph) for the next week or so, and soon trees will be leafing out.

I think I'll just mark what I've cleared, adjusting a little bit for the "kink" that goes into the neighbor's property; by that, I mean that it is clear that the tree that's near the midpoint and visible from both corners, is a little to the south (toward the neighbor's property) from the actual line, maybe 6-12 feet.  (I say that for two reasons.  One, I did briefly get what seemed to be a good bearing off the balloon, when I has walked 3/4 of the way to the other iron.  Two, I measured the bearing to the tree from both corners, using my homemade transit, and got 269 and 91.   Since the line is supposed to be due E/W, this suggest the tree is one degree south of the line, which at about 400-500ft, is about 8 feet).

Since the neighbor doesn't really seem to care, and seldom if ever walks the land (he's a "neighbor" only in the sense of owning the adjoining land, he actually lives 20-30 miles away), I don't think there's any harm if the marked line "bulges" into his land a little.   What's the worse than can happen ?   And for ANYTHING to happen, he'd have to pay to have a survey done.   If I were going to build something there other than possibly an inexpensive fence, then of course it'd be different.

Or maybe I should quit being a dope and hire a surveyor to mark the line.   Can't be too expensive, since I've found both corners and pretty much cleared the line ...


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## semipro (Mar 18, 2011)

Rusty,
I think you've hit on the solution, mark the boundary conservatively so that where there is uncertainty you make sure your property is protected.  Its not like what you're doing is a legal survey.  That puts the onus on the neighbor to survey the land if they dispute the boundaries.  After all its their actions not yours that have resulted in your losses (time, money, property damage).

Edit: It if was me I'd only hire a surveyor if the neighbor agreed to pay or share the cost.


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## RustyShackleford (Mar 21, 2011)

I can't let this go ... I thought of one more way to mark the line.   Get a bright 12v spotlight (maybe wheelbarrow a car battery out there if need be).   Shine it straight up into the air from one property corner - kinda like when a car dealership has a searchlight set up for a "grand opening".   Guess it'd have to be pretty dark, but not too dark to somehow mark a point that's along the line (I just need one, near the "midway tree" that I've mentioned before and I'm done); probably just have girlfriend, with a flashlight, to define the line.    Also, if the air is too clear, I guess the beam won't be visible; need a foggy evening ...


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## DavidWiebe (Sep 4, 2014)

I know this thread is over 3 years dead... but I came across it when Google searching for DIY transit info and after reading it and getting lots of good ideas, I thought that I could add this solution to the problem of sighting a line through the bush:
I thought the balloon idea was neat, but on a string that long, I figured the drift would be far too bad (and was confirmed by your experience). However, if you tied a 2nd line to the balloon with fishing line (very light weight "stabilizer" string) and ran it back at an angle against the wind direction, you could pull the balloon back into a position that would be directly vertical to the point you're trying to mark. Once you confirm it's position directly above the ground point, (using a 4 ft carpenter's level at your point on the ground) you could tie it down to hold it in that position and have a reliable marker. (You could really go nuts and steady it even more with 2 stabilizer strings running against wind in a "V" from the balloon.)

Also I thought of a very cheap and easy idea for a "spotting scope" based on some ideas here... a long (maybe 4 feet) piece of rigid 2-inch ABS or PVC pipe with thread or string pulled across both ends in a cross-hairs configuration and the string is held onto the pipe by tape. Line up both cross-hairs and the target and you're good to go! Or you could make a mini version using 1/2-inch by 1 or 2 feet long PVC pipe and some black sewing thread. I'm not sure if white or black pipe would work better.


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## RustyShackleford (Sep 5, 2014)

DavidWiebe said:


> I thought the balloon idea was neat, but on a string that long, I figured the drift would be far too bad (and was confirmed by your experience). However, if you tied a 2nd line to the balloon with fishing line (very light weight "stabilizer" string) and ran it back at an angle against the wind direction,...


Haha, I haven't thought about this in YEARS, though I do go by every year or so and Roundup the stump sprouts that are coming up where I cleared.   Also, I have "encouraged" (by blocking other paths) some of the people who walk around the woods to use at least part of the cleared line as a path, so that is helping to establish it.    Thinking I may sell the land anyhow, as the notion was to have a place to build a new larger house, but I'm starting to doubt I really want to do that.

But it's still fun to imagine how to mark this line well.   The balloon experience was so unsatisfactory that I am loathe to try it again, despite your most clever idea; there's simply too many trees.   I think the notion of using a vertical beam of light (like the WTC memorial) to mark one corner, and then try to sight a mid-point (a helper with a smaller light), might work well.   If I can just establish one point near the center (of the 900ft property line), I'm good to go, as I can easily mark the two smaller line segments.   I think this idea is a lot more feasible with these new ultra-bright LED flashlites (I've got one that's probably as bright as a car headlite and is the size of my thumb), so I won't need to cart a car battery out there.   Another notion I had is to use google-earth; if I could place markers that would show up in the imagery at either end of the line and at a putative near-center point, then I could tell how far off the center point is.   But it'd be helpful to know when they intend to acquire new imagery, and I'm not even sure they know or will tell you.


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## TradEddie (Sep 5, 2014)

Coming to this thread late, I've used a laser pointer at dusk to figure out my property line, and in the process, found my missing peg. On a foggy night, a vertical beam would be visible from a long way out. Not sure how you'd get it perfectly vertical though, but it'd be better than a balloon in the wind. If your major stumps are gone now, you could use it horizontally.

TE


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## RustyShackleford (Sep 5, 2014)

TradEddie said:


> Coming to this thread late, I've used a laser pointer at dusk to figure out my property line, and in the process, found my missing peg. On a foggy night, a vertical beam would be visible from a long way out. Not sure how you'd get it perfectly vertical though, but it'd be better than a balloon in the wind. If your major stumps are gone now, you could use it horizontally.
> 
> TE


Did you use laser pointer to establish a vertical beam, or horizontally ?    Not all that worried about perfectly vertical, I imagine I can eyeball it close enough, certainly with a carpenter's level held next to the beam (lets's say beam is within 1" of parallel to the 4ft level, so if I'm sighting it 50ft off the ground, it's within 1ft of being over the property iron, and the center point I'm trying to establish is within 6").


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## ewdudley (Sep 5, 2014)

TradEddie said:


> On a foggy night, a vertical beam would be visible from a long way out.


With my luck the laser would be an invitation for the local swat team to try out all their cool hardware in an off-road setting, threat to aviation doncha know.


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## BrotherBart (Sep 5, 2014)

Post deleted Rusty. You know why.


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## TradEddie (Sep 6, 2014)

I tried it both ways, but was successful when I used it horizontally, I "calibrated" my hiking compass by taking a bearing along the property line I knew (I wasn't sure if survey was magnetic or true north), then pointed the laser along the bearing specified on my deed. Sure, brush got in the way, but I just shook the branches to follow the beam and luckily no trees were along the line.  It was only about 270ft, but as I followed the beam to the end I found the peg just a few feet away, so then it was simply a matter of moving the laser and getting my kid to tell me when I was over the peg. All I needed to do was see how close my gutter discharge was to the property line, but it helps now that I know where the property line is, even if just to decide who gets the storm fallen firewood.

TE


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## RustyShackleford (Sep 6, 2014)

> I wasn't sure if survey was magnetic or true north


I was confused about this, especially since lines on different versions of the platte for our sub-division have bearings that differ by VERY small fractions of a degree.   But by adjusting the declination on my sighting compass to the correct value (10 degrees west or so) I quickly decided they are true bearings (since it ain't that tough to get a bearing much closer than 10 degrees).     So why different numbers on different surveys ?   I guess surveyors have to put what they measure, so this discrepancy just reflects their margin of error.   Dunno if its true (instead of magnetic) on surveys everywhere, or not.


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## Lockpicker (Sep 6, 2014)

Go ahead and stake your line. Just make sure if you are off that it is encroachment onto your neighbors side. Not saying to go way over but just a little. Just enough that it might compel the neighbor to pay for a survey.  Problem solved


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## TradEddie (Sep 8, 2014)

RustyShackleford said:


> I was confused about this, especially since lines on different versions of the platte for our sub-division have bearings that differ by VERY small fractions of a degree.   But by adjusting the declination on my sighting compass to the correct value (10 degrees west or so) I quickly decided they are true bearings (since it ain't that tough to get a bearing much closer than 10 degrees).     So why different numbers on different surveys ?   I guess surveyors have to put what they measure, so this discrepancy just reflects their margin of error.   Dunno if its true (instead of magnetic) on surveys everywhere, or not.


I don't remember which it was for me, but magnetic north drifts significantly over time, adding another error to human error.

TE


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## RustyShackleford (Sep 8, 2014)

TradEddie said:


> I don't remember which it was for me, but magnetic north drifts significantly over time, adding another error to human error.
> 
> TE


Doesn't have to be, as the site that gives declination (linked earlier in this thread) also gives it's change rate over time going forward.   But, yeah, I think it's likely that many surveyors don't make that computation or check the declination every day before they go out in the field, so you're probably right.


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## TradEddie (Sep 8, 2014)

RustyShackleford said:


> Doesn't have to be, as the site that gives declination (linked earlier in this thread) also gives it's change rate over time going forward.   But, yeah, I think it's likely that many surveyors don't make that computation or check the declination every day before they go out in the field, so you're probably right.


I wanted to say exactly that, but couldn't figure out how to say it so clearly! I bet they sometimes just use the declination written on their maps, or use the number they figured out the first day in a new job.

TE


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## jebatty (Sep 9, 2014)

In my area magnetic declination has changed from 7E to now 1E in a 50 year period. In a few more years it will be 0E and magnetic and true north will be the same.


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Sep 9, 2014)

One 30" piece of rebar = $ 5   knowing where to place it! Priceless


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