# Alaska files suit against OWB owners



## mikefrommaine (Jan 15, 2013)

Saw this in another forum.

http://www.newsminer.com/news/local_news/article_1206334a-5a3b-11e2-8e89-001a4bcf6878.html?mode=jqm


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## mikefrommaine (Jan 15, 2013)

My town actually had a few OWB that were legally installed and permitted. Neighbors complained and town instituted a ban on OWB. And ended up buying the old OWB from the owners.


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## CTguy9230 (Jan 15, 2013)

we have such a list of rules and regulations in my town that its damn near impoosible to
put one in now....its a shame that the government can tell you how you can heat
your house all because of a few people who dont like the smell of wood burning


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## maple1 (Jan 15, 2013)

I don't think it's just the few people who don't like burning wood smell - it's more like the huge amounts of wood smoke that some of these things pump out. If I was downwind of one, I likely wouldn't like it much either - and I'm a wood smoke smell liking wood burner.


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## TheMightyMoe (Jan 15, 2013)

The problem is we live in a bowl and it's -40... ANY smoke stays around for a very long time...

We don't have IMs because cars cannot pass them at -40. Likewise, the city fails every single air quality test it throws at us...

We just had legislation to get rid of the local EPA nazis (They couldn't find a way to enforce EPA standards / meet them realistically) and now it is the states / feds job to enforce it. This is just the beginning, of MANY law suits to come. Almost every neighborhood has a wood burner here. (Our alternative to wood is oil heating...)

Some people shouldn't live in ALASKA... Just saying.


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## Frozen Canuck (Jan 15, 2013)

Progress folks. Cleaner wood burning tech has been available for a long time. Made in the USA if you so choose. The potential fine of 100K & 10K/day afterward should give the owners all the incentive they need to adopt some cleaner burning tech. Way cheaper than the potential fines. Big bonus is the neighbors should have a cleaner environment.


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## BoilerMan (Jan 15, 2013)

CTguy9230 said:


> we have such a list of rules and regulations in my town that its damn near impoosible to
> put one in now....its a shame that the government can tell you how you can heat
> your house all because of a few people who dont like the smell of wood burning


 
It's a sticky subject to say the least.  Those who read my posts would could say I'm conservitive to say the least, I'm the last one to say much good about gov't regulation........especially on emissions.  Just to get some perspective.

However, I did live two buildings down (back when I had an apartment) from a carwash heated with a conventional OWB.  This was in town, and it was, at times, eye-watering to be outside.  This was at least three times a week.  I do believe it is irresponsible to burn like that in anything.  Pollution, is not the issue, we polluted this earth much more during the industrial revolution, and has anyone ever been to a third world nation, where they burn whole dumpsters full of garbage out of frustration?  Well I have, and to say the least the "carbon ticket" is a political money grab, 'nough said. 

This is a free country, and if you want to live in a cardboard box and burn 6,000 gallons of oil to heat then you are free to do that, just don't ask me to fund it with my tax dollars.  If you want to smoulder your wood in a water-jacked box and waste 80% of the potential energy in it, then you are free to do so.  But, if you are truly a nucence and choking off people doing it, well I have to say, some action is required.  There are clean ways to burn wood (and less wood is required, preaching to the choir i know), legislation to force someone to use that tech. is totally UN-American IMHO.    There should, however, be a distinction in urban areas and the people is truly does effect.  What that may be, I don't know.  If I owned a building and had complaints about smoke, I'd do something about it if I were able.  If you are out in the country and own acres and acres, you are free to do as you please, if you so choose.  See I'm not totally anti-gov't, just a much, much, much smaller one.

No one complains about the guy who burns through 10,000 gallons of oil, because they can't smell it, same as the guy who burns 10 cord of wood in his gasser.  Money saved with less wood = return on investment for gasser, that's real economics. 

TS


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## nate379 (Jan 16, 2013)

Nope, was this forum... https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...o-use-my-stove-right-now.103389/#post-1335180

 



mikefrommaine said:


> Saw this in another forum.
> 
> http://www.newsminer.com/news/local_news/article_1206334a-5a3b-11e2-8e89-001a4bcf6878.html?mode=jqm


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## kopeck (Jan 16, 2013)

There's a place on my drive to work that is in a bit of a bowl, on cold mornings the smoke hangs in there, it's bad enough that you have to slow down...really fog like.

I wouldn't want to live next door.

Some may feel that their free country should allow them to heat however they want, I would like to think that it would also allow their neighbors to breath.

K


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## pen (Jan 16, 2013)

kopeck said:


> There's a place on my drive to work that is in a bit of a bowl, on cold mornings the smoke hangs in there, it's bad enough that you have to slow down...really fog like.
> 
> I wouldn't want to live next door.
> 
> ...


 
There's a place like that entering the town I work in. Driving through that haze which must affect 30 homes, I am always amazed that the owner doesn't have severe leaks in each of his truck's tires, daily.

pen


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## mikefrommaine (Jan 16, 2013)

pen said:


> There's a place like that entering the town I work in. Driving through that haze which must affect 30 homes, I am always amazed that the owner doesn't have severe leaks in each of his truck's tires, daily.
> 
> pen


Tires? I would be looking for holes in his boiler.


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## TheMightyMoe (Jan 16, 2013)

Here is a follow up article - http://www.newsminer.com/blogs/staff_blogs/article_d1b1f89a-5a82-11e2-89de-0019bb30f31a.html

It was all done legally, now if the owner can burn dryer wood make it more effective, he should be allowed to try...

Also the 10k per day fines, what kind of joke is that. Replace your heat source in mid-winter for 20 thousand dollars, or get fined 10k a day. That makes sense... A 10k annual fine would make me change my heat in no time.

I'm not saying he is in the right, I am just saying, they have been trying to pass blanket pollution laws for Fairbanks, and we keep refusing them, because they are unrealistic to the needs of Fairbanks, THE coldest city in North America. (Not due to wind either, it is just cold...) We also live in a bowl, where nothing leaves, car exhaust, boiler exhaust, sewer exhaust.. You name it, it stays here.


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## Benwa907 (Feb 1, 2013)

Burning responsibly would go a long way to help improve the air quality of Fairbanks. A friend of mine had one of the smoke dragon OWB that was pretty awful and burned a lot of wood, when he started burning good dry wood the smoke was reduced dramatically and the wood consumption went down a bit also.  After he couldn't handle having to burn 20+ cords a year he participated in the borough buy back program and was paid 7500 to get rid of it.  I don't think many of the heavy polluters are letting their wood season enough. Like stated above we live in a valley that holds smoke for long periods of time, something def does need to be done, but in a fair and ethical manner.


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## kopeck (Feb 1, 2013)

When the OWB first started showing up around here not having to burn dry wood was being used as a selling point.

It's no wonder people hate these things.

K


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## blades (Feb 1, 2013)

I think some of these mfg. of owb's need a push in the right direction. Similar to wood stoves themselves.  What I do not understand is the people installing them accepting the horrendous inefficiency of most of these units at the megga prices asked for them especially when the technology already exists.


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## ihookem (Feb 1, 2013)

Yes, they are more expensive. My neighbor payed 13k for a Central boiler 6048. I payed 9400 for mine. The small shed doubles as a chicken feed, wood shed, garden tool storage too. I see him burning all the time and it is never a smoke dragon. My smokes but is mostly steam. Mine is way more efficient too. I don't think it's the boiler as much as it's bad fuel supply. I hate laws too but when people are so stupid they smoke out a neighbor they have it coming but some should be a personal suit instead of an EPA  mandate. Maybe OWB should have storage too. Then run it full blast so it runs clean. I think they are way over kill and that makes em smolder.


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## BoilerMan (Feb 1, 2013)

ihookem said:


> Yes, they are more expensive. My neighbor payed 13k for a Central boiler 6048. I payed 9400 for mine. The small shed doubles as a chicken feed, wood shed, garden tool storage too. I see him burning all the time and it is never a smoke dragon. My smokes but is mostly steam. Mine is way more efficient too. I don't think it's the boiler as much as it's bad fuel supply. I hate laws too but when people are so stupid they smoke out a neighbor they have it coming but some should be a personal suit instead of an EPA mandate. Maybe OWB should have storage too. Then run it full blast so it runs clean. I think they are way over kill and that makes em smolder.


 
Most do have some storage, they hold several hundered gallons.  It's the thing with lighting a new fire all the time that people think is sooooo hard.  When I tell people about my setup, most say something to the effect "Oh, so you have to light a new fire every day?  You mean it won't keep a fire all day....there aren't engough coals to keep it going?" I'm like really??? The 5 less cords is enough motivation for me to re-kindle a fire daily in this weather.  To each their own I guess.

TS


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## heaterman (Feb 1, 2013)

kopeck said:


> When the OWB first started showing up around here not having to burn dry wood was being used as a selling point.
> 
> It's no wonder people hate these things.
> 
> K


 
Still is by the lizards that sell them around here.


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## nate379 (Feb 2, 2013)

The several installs I have seen didn't have any kind of storage.

My brother's wife's uncle (whatever that relation is) uses one to heat his dairy farm and house. Burns 100-120 cords a year in it. It runs close to 24x7 year round and it's pretty smokey. They load 3-4ft long logs in it, not split or anything. Skid trees out of the woods, cut into pieces and feed the boiler.


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## BoilerMan (Feb 2, 2013)

nate379 said:


> Burns 100-120 cords a year in it. It runs close to 24x7 year round and it's pretty smokey.


 
Zoiks!! Thatsolttawood!

TS


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## ihookem (Feb 2, 2013)

100-120 cords a year. That's a full time job right there, and to think they could save 50 cord a year with a gasser/


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## nate379 (Feb 2, 2013)

They have machinery and the manpower to handle burning that much wood. Keeping it fed is the job of at least one of the farm hands I believe.

Heats the house/garage, indoor swimming pool, large shop (75x100ish with tall ceilings), and a milking parlor all off that boiler.

I can't remember the name of the farm, it's something weird like Be-Bo-Tom Dairy. Tom Quinn is the farmer and the farm is off Rt 1 close to the  Hodgedon Mills Rd insection in Houlton/Hodgedon. Some of you guys might know him.


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## BoilerMan (Feb 2, 2013)

I think I do know him.......  still solotta wood!

TS


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## nate379 (Feb 2, 2013)

Imagine if he was using oil instead.  At $4/gal it would be about $70,000. 



Taylor Sutherland said:


> I think I do know him....... still solotta wood!
> 
> TS


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## goosegunner (Feb 3, 2013)

CTguy9230 said:


> we have such a list of rules and regulations in my town that its damn near impoosible to
> put one in now....its a shame that the government can tell you how you can heat
> your house all because of a few people who dont like the smell of wood burning




Yeah its a shame the government can tell your neighbor they can't dump motor oil, paint and chemicals on their lot line either. I mean geeze it's their property who cares if it could migrate to your drinking water....

gg


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## simple.serf (Feb 3, 2013)

My town currently has no regulations, other than the dumb NYS rules. We did have someone who installed one that was smoking up the local school, setting off the fire alarms, etc. Legal action had to be taken there.

I am looking at wood/coal options, both because I like the option of using either fuel and because they are exempt from the NYS laws.


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## TheMightyMoe (Feb 3, 2013)

goosegunner said:


> Yeah its a shame the government can tell your neighbor they can't dump motor oil, paint and chemicals on their lot line either. I mean geeze it's their property who cares if it could migrate to your drinking water....
> 
> gg


 
I think it's more important that government work with the people, not against them. In this case, both the boilers passed state inspections, and are sold legally here. 

If they remove those boilers, the next day another neighbor could install those exact same boilers legally...

They tried to pass a blanket law last year that would of potentially banned ALL wood stoves/boilers... 

It's much harder to regulate wood burners, because a lot of the "burn quality issues" relate to the users and how they burn. Which is why it is so hard for the state to regulate wood, especially in a place where so many people burn wood to keep warm.


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## kopeck (Feb 4, 2013)

nate379 said:


> They have machinery and the manpower to handle burning that much wood. Keeping it fed is the job of at least one of the farm hands I believe.
> 
> Heats the house/garage, indoor swimming pool, large shop (75x100ish with tall ceilings), and a milking parlor all off that boiler.
> 
> I can't remember the name of the farm, it's something weird like Be-Bo-Tom Dairy. Tom Quinn is the farmer and the farm is off Rt 1 close to the Hodgedon Mills Rd insection in Houlton/Hodgedon. Some of you guys might know him.


 
Is that the decent size dairy far right on RT 1?  Really nice looking, well kept place?

If he's heating all that on one boiler...that's impressive.  I'm surprised they haven't devised a log loading system.  Stick one and in and it just keeps feeding it's self. 

I guess I'm most surprised, given his heating load and location he doesn't have some sort of chip burning setup.

K


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## nate379 (Feb 4, 2013)

Yeah sounds like the place.  It's kept pretty clean and nice looking all things considered.  Most of the farm buildings are red.  Bar-Bet-Tom Dairy Farm is the name of the place.


I don't know exactly how it's all plumbed in or what size/brand of boiler even.  I've only been over there a few times.  If I get a chance I'll ask my brother if he knows more about it.



kopeck said:


> Is that the decent size dairy far right on RT 1? Really nice looking, well kept place?
> 
> If he's heating all that on one boiler...that's impressive. I'm surprised they haven't devised a log loading system. Stick one and in and it just keeps feeding it's self.
> 
> ...


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## mikefrommaine (Feb 18, 2013)

Doesn't seem to be getting any better

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/feb/16/nation/la-na-fairbanks-air-pollution-20130217


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## BoilerMan (Feb 18, 2013)

Interesting read. I have to wonder, if oil were cheaper up there......think pipeline......... would this be such a problem? I worked with a guy from Alaska, and he said oil was even more expensive there as it is here.  Keep stuffing the green wood in there

"Lucy.....someone have some splainen' todo!".......... Rickey Ricardo

TS


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## Benwa907 (Feb 19, 2013)

My dad just had a heating oil delivery a couple days ago and he paid $4.12 per gallon for heating oil!!  I think during the summer it had gotten down to around $3.50 but that's still pretty high for a state full of oil and gas!!


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## heaterman (Feb 19, 2013)

TheMightyMoe said:


> The problem is we live in a bowl and it's -40... ANY smoke stays around for a very long time...
> 
> We don't have IMs because cars cannot pass them at -40. Likewise, the city fails every single air quality test it throws at us...
> 
> ...


 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Those people being the ones who burn green wood in an OWB?


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## heaterman (Feb 19, 2013)

This picture illustrates (in a small way) what happens in Fairbanks and North Pole. I took it last Sunday when it was -8* here.
You can see how the cold air traps the smoke in a layer. The farm in the picture sits in a little "valley" where the grade of the land falls off to the north toward the creek behind the buildings in the picture.
The image quality is pretty poor from my cell phone but you get the idea. The CB7620 or 7260 or whatever it is is fogging away on the left and the haze is just hanging in place even with a little west wind trying to push it.

Also of note; you can see the stack from the oil boiler in the barn to the right emitting steam vapor. That great big CB is not able to keep up with the demand and the oil boiler comes on to heat the building load + dump hot water back into the CB.
We did the install on the oil boiler back in 2005 or 6 when oil was $1.79/gallon. The owner was looking for options when oil hit $4 a couple years ago and had the CB installed by the local dealer. Obviously, it does not work as intended.

It's things like this that are and will continue to give wood burning in general a black eye and if users don't start adopting "best practices", meaning good equipment and seasoned wood, it will be no ones fault but their own when wood burning gets banned entirely. The equipment is out there. Burning green wood helps no one.


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## TheMightyMoe (Feb 19, 2013)

Our gas/oil is usually in the top 10% of pricing per gallon apparently. We tax the oil companies, and they tax us indirectly. The system works.


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## nate379 (Feb 19, 2013)

In that photo, how much of that is just steam/heat and not smoke though?  My chimney will "smoke" like that when it's cold out.


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## Fred61 (Feb 19, 2013)

That haze hanging just above the barn roof ain't steam!


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## nate379 (Feb 19, 2013)

Yes, it could be steam, that is why I was asking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_fog



Fred61 said:


> That haze hanging just above the barn roof ain't steam!


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## jebatty (Feb 19, 2013)

This issue is one of many that draws into focus who we are as individuals and who we are as community. Are we more like a python, purely focused on the self, advancing our own self interest and satisfying our own needs regardless of impact on others? Or are we more like a hive of honey bees, focused on dividing labor, protecting the entire hive community, and ever willing to sacrifice ourselves for the good of the whole so that the community has the best chance of surviving?

I lean in the direction that in the long run the more we act like the hive of honey bees, that is act in community, the better off all of us will be and we then will have the best outcome for us as individuals and for our community, state, and nation.


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## nate379 (Feb 19, 2013)

As long as my house is warm I don't really care if the chimney was rolling black coal like a diesel truck or spitting out rainbows and kittens. 



jebatty said:


> This issue is one of many that draws into focus who we are as individuals and who we are as community. Are we more like a python, purely focused on the self, advancing our own self interest and satisfying our own needs regardless of impact on others? Or are we more like a hive of honey bees, focused on dividing labor, protecting the entire hive community, and ever willing to sacrifice ourselves for the good of the whole so that the community has the best chance of surviving?
> 
> I lean in the direction that in the long run the more we act like the hive of honey bees, that is act in community, the better off all of us will be and we then will have the best outcome for us as individuals and for our community, state, and nation.


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## Downeast Farmer (Feb 19, 2013)

nate379 said:


> As long as my house is warm I don't really care if the chimney was rolling black coal like a diesel truck or spitting out rainbows and kittens.


which is why we'll always need government....


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## BoilerMan (Feb 19, 2013)

Interesting discussion we have going here....... 

TS


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## BillsWS (Feb 19, 2013)

My 2 cents.  Dry wood.  I see OWB just puking heavy, heavy smoke.  You know they are burning wet wood.  We burned dry wood in ours and there was hardly any smoke at all. But yet I'll see the same make/model just pouring out the smoke.  They should send moisture nazi's to your house with hatchets, moisture meters and ticket books. THAT would make way more sense.  Like I said, just my 2 cents (in this economy I'll concede its 1 cent worth).


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## webby3650 (Feb 19, 2013)

I have a neighbor that has a well known OWB, I never see smoke rolling. Another neighbor has another well know brand and it pours smoke. Smoke will actually settle in my field, I'm about 400 yards away from the boiler. I couldn't agree more, wet wood is the biggest problem with these units. Another issue I think is that most around here over size the boiler, then when it needs heat, it chugs away.


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## heaterman (Feb 19, 2013)

I'll say and agree to the following;

*The OWB industry is its own worst enemy at this point because they had a huge part in creating the monster that now exists.  For years I have heard.....and still hear..... the salesmen and dealers representing nearly all brands make statements like "Our boiler will burn ANYTHING!" or "Our boiler does BETTER with green wood". Now that they have indoctrinated nearly an entire generation of wood burners with this tripe, they are beginning to back track and say, "Welllllll......these newer units actually need to have dry wood to burn right". All I can say is you've made your bed, now lay in it. Time to pay the piper for all the junk and misinformation you promoted over the years. Time to start promoting best practices, building good equipment and making honest claims about it.

*The picture that I posted is most definitely not ice fog. I've been on that farm many times and have actually seen brown snow 100 yards downwind from that beast. The fog is a massive cloud of particulates emitted by the wood burner.
I think I've told about a family (4 brothers who all live within a mile of their business) that all own OWB's from the major company. Their truck repair shop uses the largest unit made by this manufacturer and that thing alone will obliterate the sun once in a while.  They live on a low level stretch of land along a state highway and between the 5 OWB's they have burning, I have seen the smoke so thick there that traffic actually has to slow down due to the haze.

*The use of green unseasoned wood is more than likely a larger problem than the poor engineering and design of most OWB's. Heck, my favorite farmer manages to almost plug the flues on the Garns he heats his barn with due to cutting one day and burning the next.......(my poor babies.......) 

*Attitudes of indifference to the welfare of our fellow human beings speak loudly about the character of an individual. We are ALL called to be our "brothers keeper".  It is our responsibility to seek the best outcome for everyone involved in a given situation. It is what separates us from the animals and makes us worthy to be called human.
My dad always said, and beat into my head the following statement regarding business and it applies to all of life also. His words were these......"Profit is the greatest amount of good, for the greatest amount of people". In other words, true profit, not just monetary, is profit that benefits all parties involved not just the seller of a given product and not just the user who is saving a buck at the expense of someone else.

*In this day and age with booming population growth and dwindling resources worldwide, we must all consider things like true life cycle costs of the product we purchase rather than merely looking at the first up front cost, as the only cost.

The soap box is now open..


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## nate379 (Feb 20, 2013)

I've only been to Fairbanks a dozen times if that so not familiar with that farm/truck shop.


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## TheMightyMoe (Feb 20, 2013)

The hospital can get a similar haze. Not to say it is or isn't pollutants floating the air.


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## goosegunner (Feb 21, 2013)

nate379 said:


> As long as my house is warm I don't really care if the chimney was rolling black coal like a diesel truck or spitting out rainbows and kittens.


 

Likewise, If you had neighbors with chimneys doing the same thing and blowing to your house it would be fine with you right?

gg


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## nate379 (Feb 21, 2013)

goosegunner said:


> Likewise, If you had neighbors with chimneys doing the same thing and blowing to your house it would be fine with you right?
> 
> gg



My sarcasm obviously flew over a few people's heads!


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## tmudd (Feb 21, 2013)

I stand on the side of  cleaner burning standards. Where I live,we are the goverment. We vote for our neighbors,our friends, our co workers, our relatives and sometimes complete strangers to every office. It all starts at the local level here, county road and bridges judges ,school boards, then  state level. There are a lot of elected officials that I disagree with philosophically but agree with on the core principles. There is almost no zoning and that means no property protection. We just passed a sewer ordinance which means your staight pipe can't dump out at the property line anymore. Now that is progress. Clean air, water and safety---these are the minimum standards to ask of your goverment.   The whole idea that things have to be unregulated to make them affordable is nonsense and a false choice on our resources.  Without reasonable regulations every corporation would maximize profits- the slash and burn theory .  When elected officals break their promises, I vote for somebody else.  Everything you want to do in this world is possible, and all cost are passed on to consumers. You pay for it one way or another.

As far as wood burning technology is concerned, The woodpart as fuel is a lot of work, I don't know why anyone would not want to maximize efficiency and minimize the work part of it all. The Europeans have been playing this movie for centuries and that is why they are kicking ass in technology. I suspect when our population densities reach theirs we will then make better resouce choices.

TLM- Happy gassifier owner with 1000 gallons storage.


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## Downeast Farmer (Feb 21, 2013)

I'm with you, tmudd, and it's that way here, too--my neighbors are the local government and thank goodness they're willing to do it--our First Selectman gets nothing but flack every day of the year for a measly six hundred bucks--and the desire to serve.  But it's that way everywhere in our country, which is why our forebears fought for our system.  I think all those people who are always railing against the government--especially those who work for it or were elected to lead it--are either lazy or disingenuous: if you don't like the government, get in there and fix it or elect people who will.  Now, that's my two cents....


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## TheMightyMoe (Feb 23, 2013)

We need to keep giving the government money so they can fix everything.

I'm here from the government, I'm here to help.


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## BrotherBart (Feb 23, 2013)

TheMightyMoe said:


> I'm here from the government, I'm here to help.


 
"I'm from the government and I am here to tell you to quit choking your neighbors. Since in a society of laws they can't come over and shove those green splits up your ass."


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## TheMightyMoe (Feb 25, 2013)

Or the government could send in one of it's "experts" to diagnose if their actually is a problem with the boilers or if it is simply the fact that they are burning green splits.

But it is so much easier to sue someone for 10k a day, after all, the legal staff is already on hand to handle any possible problems.

Like I said, I am not against regulation, but how they do it. It isn't regulation if they simply ban it / force people to find alternatives at their own expense. But it is a lot easier to ban/fine it then to regulate it.

It's not about the fact I give them money, but what they do with it. 

We voted the EPA away up here for a reason. So now the state has to do the kings bidding.

/shrug.


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## pen (Feb 25, 2013)

I think a month and a 1/2 run on this topic is good for now.

Closing things down.

pen


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