# help with cresote build up  with a moe all nighter new to all this



## 14willog (Dec 17, 2019)

Ok guys so i have a moe all nighter wood stove. Not sure which one but it fits 18inch logs. It heats very well so i would hate to get a newer stove it does not have any baffle in it or anything. So i have been burning it and getting alot of cresote build up especially the tar like cresote. It has a 8inch outlet and its a newer block 8inch chimney i have my door drafts turned out one full turn on both knobs and have my pipe damper closed to about half thats where i always set it. My stove top will get to be 600-700 degrees or even hotter but my external pipe temps will only get to about 200-250 is this normal or what should i do to get my flue warmer as im assuming thats why im getting cresote so bad!


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## Jan Pijpelink (Dec 17, 2019)

14willog said:


> Ok guys so i have a moe all nighter wood stove. Not sure which one but it fits 18inch logs. It heats very well so i would hate to get a newer stove it does not have any baffle in it or anything. So i have been burning it and getting alot of cresote build up especially the tar like cresote. It has a 8inch outlet and its a newer block 8inch chimney i have my door drafts turned out one full turn on both knobs and have my pipe damper closed to about half thats where i always set it. My stove top will get to be 600-700 degrees or even hotter but my external pipe temps will only get to about 200-250 is this normal or what should i do to get my flue warmer as im assuming thats why im getting cresote so bad!


How dry is your wood? How long has it been seasoned? Wet wood is in most cases the cause of creosote build up.


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## 14willog (Dec 17, 2019)

Jan Pijpelink said:


> How dry is your wood? How long has it been seasoned? Wet wood is in most cases the cause of creosote build up.


My wood has been cut and split and under cover for about 3 years now


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## 14willog (Dec 17, 2019)

Jan Pijpelink said:


> How dry is your wood? How long has it been seasoned? Wet wood is in most cases the cause of creosote build up.


I just don’t understand how my stove can be so hot but my pipe temp be so low


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## Jan Pijpelink (Dec 17, 2019)

14willog said:


> I just don’t understand how my stove can be so hot but my pipe temp be so low


Where exactly do you measure your stove pipe temp?


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## 14willog (Dec 17, 2019)

Jan Pijpelink said:


> Where exactly do you measure your stove pipe temp?


I have a heat gun and i do about 15inches above my pipe damper and my damper is about 20inches from my stove. My temp right at my thimble usually runs about 209


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## Jan Pijpelink (Dec 17, 2019)

14willog said:


> I have a heat gun and i do about 15inches above my pipe damper and my damper is about 20inches from my stove. My temp right at my thimble usually runs about 209


Is that a single wall or double wall pipe?


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## 14willog (Dec 17, 2019)

Jan Pijpelink said:


> Is that a single wall or double wall pipe?


Single wall


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## Jan Pijpelink (Dec 17, 2019)

I measure about 300 F and a bit above on my single wall. Have you measured your moisture content in a fresh split piece of wood that has been at room temp for 12 hours or so?


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## 14willog (Dec 17, 2019)

Jan Pijpelink said:


> I measure about 300 F and a bit above on my single wall. Have you measured your moisture content in a fresh split piece of wood that has been at room temp for 12 hours or so?


No i have not i am going to get a moisture meter this week. Could it be that i just need to update to a newer epa stove?


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## bholler (Dec 17, 2019)

14willog said:


> I have a heat gun and i do about 15inches above my pipe damper and my damper is about 20inches from my stove. My temp right at my thimble usually runs about 209


That is way to low to dump into a clay lined chimney.  There is no way you will keep the flue gasses above 250 untill the top of the chimney


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## Jan Pijpelink (Dec 17, 2019)

14willog said:


> No i have not i am going to get a moisture meter this week. Could it be that i just need to update to a newer epa stove?


I think you need to get an insulated liner installed. Measure the MC of your wood. As a test you could get a few packs of enviro blocks at Tractor Supply, burn them and see what temps you get, for comparison. Upgrading from that stove to a more modern one is not a bad idea.


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## 14willog (Dec 17, 2019)

bholler said:


> That is way to low to dump into a clay lined chimney.  There is no way you will keep the flue gasses above 250 untill the top of the chimney


What would you recommend to do?


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## coaly (Dec 17, 2019)

Open the flue pipe damper more. The chimney is not hot enough.

Is the stove pipe 6 inch where you are measuring temp?

200* f surface temp is about 400* internal gas temp. Depending on flue diameter and height, this can drop below the required temperature of 250* to the top. That is the condensating point where water vapor from combustion condenses, allowing smoke particles to stick.  If it is a 6 inch outlet stove connected to an 8 inch chimney, the expansion from 6 to 8 (round) drops by about 1/2. 8 x 8 square is even larger. So 400 in 6 inch  expanded to 8 is only about 200*, cooling far below the critical temp to the top.

If you can get a temp reading on flue wall about a foot from the top you will know what temp the actual flue is. Keep it above 250 when smoke is present, and it will stay clean.

The flue damper is a chimney control that slows velocity of rising gasses in chimney. Opening it increases draft allowing more oxygen into stove, so you will be controlling stove by closing intake air dampers more.

You can see how an insulated flue the same size as stove outlet stays hotter with less wasted heat to keep it hot. Then you can run the air closed even  farther using less fuel.


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## coaly (Dec 17, 2019)

Bholler said that while I was typing.  I just gave you the reason why.


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## 14willog (Dec 17, 2019)

coaly said:


> Open the flue pipe damper more. The chimney is not hot enough.
> 
> Is the stove pipe 6 inch where you are measuring temp?
> 
> ...


Its an 8 inch all the way from the stove to the top and do you suppose that being the stove does not have a baffle of any sort in it that i can run my pipe damper all the way? Im affraid with that that my flames will be sucked out into the chimney.  Also if i do that is there a way to control the stove temp because i have tried running it further open and man does that stove get hot i opened it up one night and the stove was 750 degrees


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## bholler (Dec 17, 2019)

And coaly is right on


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## 14willog (Dec 17, 2019)

bholler said:


> And coaly is right on


View my reply to him and tell me your input on that. I appreciate everything i have had many sleepless nights trying to figure this out.


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## bholler (Dec 17, 2019)

14willog said:


> Its an 8 inch all the way from the stove to the top and do you suppose that being the stove does not have a baffle of any sort in it that i can run my pipe damper all the way? Im affraid with that that my flames will be sucked out into the chimney.  Also if i do that is there a way to control the stove temp because i have tried running it further open and man does that stove get hot i opened it up one night and the stove was 750 degrees


Clearly you need to open the damper up more and let more heat up the stack.


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## 14willog (Dec 17, 2019)

bholler said:


> Clearly you need to open the damper up more and let more heat up the stack.


Will that be ok to do with the stove not having a baffle of any sort


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## bholler (Dec 17, 2019)

14willog said:


> Will that be ok to do with the stove not having a baffle of any sort


A hell of allot better than filling your chimney with goop.  Is your chimney interior or exterior?


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## 14willog (Dec 18, 2019)

bholler said:


> A hell of allot better than filling your chimney with goop.  Is your chimney interior or exterior?


Exterior and the last 4 feet is underground


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## bholler (Dec 18, 2019)

14willog said:


> Exterior and the last 4 feet is underground


Yeah in that case you need to be at least 100 degrees higher.


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## coaly (Dec 18, 2019)

Pictures would give us an idea of what stove you're working with. And its connection.

Try it with flue damper open. Close intake dampers down to a crack if needed to slow the fire.
Many people rationalize closing the pipe damper "holds heat in the stove". It doesn't. If you take temp readings before and after damper, you will see the same temp. It slows velocity of rising gasses, reducing draft of an over drafting chimney. If your stove is a double door, capable of being burned in Fireplace Mode with a screen in place, the pipe damper becomes your only control. It is there to slowly close until smoke starts to roll in at top during open door burning with screen in place. Open slightly for the correct draft that allows smoke out, retaining some heat. A single door stove does not require a pipe damper for open door burning, so they only need one in the case of an over drafting chimney. Keep it open with doors closed. Check temp at top, and IF much higher than 250, close it slightly to prevent too much heat loss. You can't close it much. Just slightly.

I'm still not sure if you have a 6 or 8 inch stove. That makes a difference if it can handle a baffle or not.
The stove should also be sized to the chimney, so a 6 inch outlet increased to 8 is part of your problem not getting enough heat into the chimney. If you have a 6 inch stove, use 6 inch pipe, line the chimney with an insulated liner, and baffle the stove.
The baffle must allow *no smaller than the square inch area of stove outlet*, pipe and chimney above it. (area smoke travels)
A baffle inside is advisable WITH a chimney that stays hot inside. Too much baffle retains too much heat in the firebox, not heating the chimney enough. The main advantage of a baffle is keeping the heat in the firebox, raising firebox temperatures allowing more smoke particles to be burned off in the box. It also adds resistance to flow inside firebox, requiring the flue damper if used to be open more. It will make the front of the stove hotter than the rear. Less smoke is less chance of particles sticking to flue walls forming creosote.


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## Jan Pijpelink (Dec 18, 2019)

coaly said:


> Pictures would give us an idea of what stove you're working with. And its connection.
> 
> Try it with flue damper open. Close intake dampers down to a crack if needed to slow the fire.
> Many people rationalize closing the pipe damper "holds heat in the stove". It doesn't. If you take temp readings before and after damper, you will see the same temp. It slows velocity of rising gasses, reducing draft of an over drafting chimney. If your stove is a double door, capable of being burned in Fireplace Mode with a screen in place, the pipe damper becomes your only control. It is there to slowly close until smoke starts to roll in at top during open door burning with screen in place. Open slightly for the correct draft that allows smoke out, retaining some heat. A single door stove does not require a pipe damper for open door burning, so they only need one in the case of an over drafting chimney. Keep it open with doors closed. Check temp at top, and IF much higher than 250, close it slightly to prevent too much heat loss. You can't close it much. Just slightly.
> ...


OP wrote 8 inch.


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## 14willog (Dec 18, 2019)

coaly said:


> Pictures would give us an idea of what stove you're working with. And its connection.
> 
> Try it with flue damper open. Close intake dampers down to a crack if needed to slow the fire.
> Many people rationalize closing the pipe damper "holds heat in the stove". It doesn't. If you take temp readings before and after damper, you will see the same temp. It slows velocity of rising gasses, reducing draft of an over drafting chimney. If your stove is a double door, capable of being burned in Fireplace Mode with a screen in place, the pipe damper becomes your only control. It is there to slowly close until smoke starts to roll in at top during open door burning with screen in place. Open slightly for the correct draft that allows smoke out, retaining some heat. A single door stove does not require a pipe damper for open door burning, so they only need one in the case of an over drafting chimney. Keep it open with doors closed. Check temp at top, and IF much higher than 250, close it slightly to prevent too much heat loss. You can't close it much. Just slightly.
> ...


I have a couple pictures can get more when i get home if need me to. Its 8inch out of stove.


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## bholler (Dec 18, 2019)

14willog said:


> I have a couple pictures can get more when i get home if need me to. Its 8inch out of stove.


Is the clean out door and all block cores behind it sealed up well?  Is the pipe sealed into the crock well?  I also see some potential clearance issues both from the crock going through the wall and from the stove to the wood behind the stone veneer


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## 14willog (Dec 18, 2019)

bholler said:


> Is the clean out door and all block cores behind it sealed up well?  Is the pipe sealed into the crock well?  I also see some potential clearance issues both from the crock going through the wall and from the stove to the wood behind the stone veneer


So the chimney use to leak water when it would rain so im assuming that its not sealed all that great i dug around it put some good stone and tarred the outside that was in the ground since then no water but im assuming that it can pull air right there now that you say that and i do have some gaps in my pipe joints thats how it was set up when i bought the place should i get new pipes and fit the joints tightly? Like i said im new to all this


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## coaly (Dec 18, 2019)

Jan Pijpelink said:


> OP wrote 8 inch.


Yes, but Jumbo and Giant Moe are the only models with 8 inch outlet and take 24 inch logs.

Trying to figure out what he has since the log length and outlet size don't make sense. All the narrow stoves including Big Moe have 6. Tiny and Little Moe are the only ones that take shorter logs, also having 6.
Some have a heat extractor ring on the back for a water jacket around the outlet that will accept an 8 inch pipe, but the inside exhaust flue is 6 inch.
If he has a wide Fireplace model, that normally other makes have double doors, it would be fine with 8 all the way. (and possibly the reason it has a damper there) Otherwise most All-Nighters won't have a large enough outlet to heat a 64 square inch flue very far vertically.


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## coaly (Dec 18, 2019)

See the pics, that stove will work. It takes larger than 18 inch logs.

Any leaks you have will allow air INTO the chimney cooling it. Open or leaky clean out doors, mortar at pipe joint into chimney...... 3 screws at each pipe joint should seal the joints. Here's the basics of what makes a stove work, then you can usually figure out the cause;

Rising exhaust gasses lighter than air rise up the chimney. This creates a low pressure area in the chimney, pipe and stove.*This low pressure area allows atmospheric air pressure to PUSH into the stove intakes, feeding the fire oxygen.
*The lowest pressure is measured at the stove collar, called draft. The greater the temperature differential inside and outside the chimney, the stronger the draft. So as it gets colder outside, it will naturally draft harder burning hotter. Atmospheric pressure changes constantly, low pressure areas moving over have less "push" into the stove, so it will be sluggish. Warm days with sun heating the chimney can stall draft since the temp differential isn't as much. This all determines the settings of air and damper use.  The chimney is the engine that drives the stove. Elbows, pipe, damper (variable resistance), chimney cap and screen all decrease draft that the chimney creates. A baffle inside adds internal resistance in firebox. The air intakes are the most resistance in the system.


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## 14willog (Dec 18, 2019)

coaly said:


> See the pics, that stove will work. It takes larger than 18 inch logs.
> 
> Any leaks you have will allow air INTO the chimney cooling it. Open or leaky clean out doors, mortar at pipe joint into chimney...... 3 screws at each pipe joint should seal the joints. Here's the basics of what makes a stove work, then you can usually figure out the cause;
> 
> ...


Thank you


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## 14willog (Dec 18, 2019)

coaly said:


> See the pics, that stove will work. It takes larger than 18 inch logs.
> 
> Any leaks you have will allow air INTO the chimney cooling it. Open or leaky clean out doors, mortar at pipe joint into chimney...... 3 screws at each pipe joint should seal the joints. Here's the basics of what makes a stove work, then you can usually figure out the cause;
> 
> ...


I have another question how do i get the glaze creosote out of my chimney is there a way for me to do it or do i have to hire a chimney sweep to do so?


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## 14willog (Dec 18, 2019)

bholler said:


> That is way to low to dump into a clay lined chimney.  There is no way you will keep the flue gasses above 250 untill the top of the chimney


How do i get the glaze creosote out do i have to hire a chimney sweep to do so?


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## bholler (Dec 18, 2019)

14willog said:


> How do i get the glaze creosote out do i have to hire a chimney sweep to do so?


A rotary cleaner with either cables or chains depending upon how bad it is


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## begreen (Dec 21, 2019)

Lightening up the images and magnifying them,  it looks like the stove pipe is not sealed into the crock and there is a lot of dark ooze coming out of the bottom of the cleanout door. That is also likely not sealing tightly. The deep thimble also is not helping due to the long horizontal run.


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