# Wood furnace add on



## KL3540 (Sep 29, 2013)

Ok, I have been wanting a wood insert for years the replace my existing wood burning builders box. Being the wall is stoned about 12' high, I would have to pull this down, pull out old box, put in one I select. I really like the xtroodrinare and Napoleon.  Ok with that said, way to much of a project for my current budget.


I still have a wood burning fireplace which makes things cozy but is oviously not efficient.

The other day I happen to stumble on wood burning furnace add ons. Specifically the englander 28-3500.  It had some fantastic reviews and is very reasonably priced.   So, being it is from a big box store, I walked into a place around the corner from me who specialize in inserts, burners, outdoor burner, etc.  They essentially laughed about any big box store brand, said even though they adverstise made in USA they are only assembled her and are chinese junk.  They also included the USSTOVE Clayton .....  I was shocked and listened to what they had to say.  Immediately they suggest a Harmon but it was $3600 plus I would HAVE to get dampers and they suggested the automatic ones which were about 1200 for that and the duct work.  This does not include the exterior vent pipe Nor installation. 
I was blown away.  Their price would be about $6000.   Huge change when I had the initial look of $1200 for an englader. I realize I would still have to have extras: piping, duct work etc. However I didn't  see that one in my head totalling  6k.
So hear are my questions.  Is the englander a good product? Where is it made? Can it compete against a Harmon at triple the price?
My plan was to add a wood furnace to my current forced air furnace. I live on 10 acres with plenty of wood. I also have a good source for unlimited wood.  I am not overly concerned having to go downstairs to put wood in the furnace as i have a walk out basement where I store the wood.  So it would actually be easier with the furnace Down there as we currently have to bring wood up.

My house is about 2850. 350 is a bonus room I am not concerned about as we don't use it and the heat is shut down up their. My first floor is 2500 sqft and basement is 2500 sqft.  I leave the basement vents shut off. Would this furnace heat my first floor? 

How much generally are all the extras that would need to be purchased aside from the stove?

Again, this model received great reviews and I don't want to make things overly complex but if you have other models feel free to let me know.


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## BrotherBart (Sep 30, 2013)

Moved this to where folks have more experience with whole house heating with furnaces.


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## blades (Sep 30, 2013)

Guess What find a different dealer, Englander stoves are made here state side, USStove ya  mostly chicom likely assembled here, not a fan of their's. Englander wood furnace works well but is not of the latest technology. I have couple of friends with them and they like there units. 

Dampers, Code thing, and prevents over heating of AC parts, additionally duct work for a solid fuel appliance has different spacing requirements than  conventional heating furnaces, again code thing, so be sure of your Ins. Co. before you do anything.

Look into a unit called the Tundra. New on market but based on fancier unit of that mfg's line to fill a price point in the market.  Canadian made.


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## maple1 (Sep 30, 2013)

I would include Khumma in my considerations also.

EDIT: I think I spelled that wrong...


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## hobbyheater (Sep 30, 2013)

KL3540 said:


> but if you have other models feel free to let me know.



http://www.lamppakuuma.com/kuuma-vapor-fire-200-high-efficiency-wood-gasification-furnace.html

Made in the USA and appears to be a quality product ,with gasification technology and the smaller unit looks to be a easy install .

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/grannys-new-wood-furnace.108241/


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## KL3540 (Sep 30, 2013)

Insurance co.  I dread the call but you are correct. It's a necessary call. 

   Do you think the average HVAC guy would know the codes if installing the wood furnace add on to a natural gas forced air system?

   When I see my neighbor next, I will ask him. He is an HVAC guy.

Thank you for the input.  Keep any and all tips and furnace suggestions coming.


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## brenndatomu (Sep 30, 2013)

+1 on the Drolet Tundra recommendation. The Englander is just old school fire-in-a-box type heater, primary combustion only. The Tundra has secondary combustion too, burns _much_ cleaner, more heat with less wood. Nothing fancy though, just basic _modern_ wood burning technology. Only around $500 more than the Englander. Available various places, Menards, Lowes, Northern Tool, others too. (Some places call them the Heatmax, same unit though (maybe a different color?)
Yeah, talk to your HVAC neighbor dude, That's what I did, my guy made custom plenum and adapters for my very complicated system, did a real nice job! Best part, no cash outlay, gotta love the barter system


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## lampmfg (Oct 4, 2013)

If you want the most efficient and cleanest burning go with the Kuuma 

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/kuuma-vapor-fire-100-wood-furnace-results.112796/


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## blades (Oct 5, 2013)

lampmfg said:


> If you want the most efficient and cleanest burning go with the Kuuma
> 
> https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/kuuma-vapor-fire-100-wood-furnace-results.112796/


Was only making suggestion within the $ range indicated


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## KL3540 (Oct 5, 2013)

Ok, the Englander is still in the running.  It has phenomenal reviews and a great price.

I think US stove company is out if the running. I have read to many bad reviews. 

I am also now considering:

Daka 832FB
Daka 621FB
Daka 622FBT
Shelter SF2639
Shelter SF2631
Drolet Tundra heatmax 

These all appear to have secondary burn and comparable prices. The shelter was really hard to find any further info on including reviews. 

The daka seems to be a pretty good unit as well. Please elaborate if anyone has one. Likes dislikes on all models.

I haven't had the opportunity to look at the Kuma yet.


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## laynes69 (Oct 5, 2013)

None of the above have secondary burn, but the Tundra. The Kuuma has it, but it wasn't in the list. The daka says "secondary burn chamber", but it's more of a heat exchanger. In order for proper combustion to take place, preheated secondary air must enter the burn zone, which usually is insulated to maintain a high temperature. Something the Daka, Englander and Shelter furnaces don't have. The Tundra may not carry 100% of the heat load, but it will be a bit more efficient than the other furnaces. Our furnace is the Caddy, and the tundra is built with the same firebox. The firebox is pretty much bulletproof and the secondary heat exchanger of the tundra will extract quite a bit of heat from the furnace.


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## Domonic (Oct 5, 2013)

laynes69 said:


> None of the above have secondary burn, but the Tundra. The Kuuma has it, but it wasn't in the list. The daka says "secondary burn chamber", but it's more of a heat exchanger. In order for proper combustion to take place, preheated secondary air must enter the burn zone, which usually is insulated to maintain a high temperature. Something the Daka, Englander and Shelter furnaces don't have. The Tundra may not carry 100% of the heat load, but it will be a bit more efficient than the other furnaces. Our furnace is the Caddy, and the tundra is built with the same firebox. The firebox is pretty much bulletproof and the secondary heat exchanger of the tundra will extract quite a bit of heat from the furnace.


I put in the englander last year as a stand alone unit tied into my existing duct work. First time I've ever heated with wood and we kept our 2800 sq/ft home comfortable all winter. Burned about 6 cords of wood which wasn't as dry as it should have but we burned no oil! We did fill the stove at nite if we happen to wake up. If not there were coals enough in the morning to start the fire right back up. It may be a little more trick figuring out how to run the stove to get the most out of it but in the end well worth it I'm my opinion. This year I'm ahead of the game with 10 cords cut and split ready to last this year and part of next.


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## KL3540 (Oct 5, 2013)

Wow, that's FANTASTIC  It really seems to get the best reviews. That may truly be the model I go with.  Even if it doesn't have a secondary burn chamber.  It may be a little more work if I have to fill it more (burn time wise) and more splitting. However, at this point in the game, I enjoy splitting. I currently have about 10 face cord split and stacked.  I have another cord that needs to be split and stacked.  30 trees down and stacked ready to be cut and split. Then another 50 dead still standing the I need to fell etc.  lots of work ahead but I hate to see it all go in a Bon fire pit.


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## brenndatomu (Oct 5, 2013)

+1 on what layne69 said ^ none of the units mentioned have true secondary burn except the Tundra, well and I guess the Kuuma stuff too, I dunno what they got going on in there on their units, is like some kinda magic!  Anyways, all the other furnaces you listed "say" they get secondary burn, I'm throwin the BS card here! They don't have secondary air tubes over the fire! I had (notice I said had) a Yukon Big Jack, it was designed like the Dakas and the Shelter, they're built great but, they say they get secondary burn, yeah, for about 15 minutes right after a full load of fresh wood! Then it's back to fire-in-a-box-smoke-dragon! If you don't mind cutting extra wood, and cleanin your chimney every couple weeks during the winter, go for it! I've been there, ain't going back either!  Take the advise of the wisdom being offered by those who have gone before you, you won't regret the extra $500 spent for the Tundra! (or do it _really_ right the first time and getcha one dem Kuumas!)


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## KL3540 (Oct 5, 2013)

If anyone can youtube David Brisson Englander. Do you call BS on this or is it a legit home made secondary burn?


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## KL3540 (Oct 5, 2013)

How much to the Kumas run?

It appears the tundra specs 2500 sqft. If I am wrong correct me. I think the tundra looks sweet.  

I don't mind spending $2000, but that is about my limit as I will still have to  Purchase piping, dampers, etc and labor.


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## laynes69 (Oct 5, 2013)

KL3540 said:


> If anyone can youtube David Brisson Englander. Do you call BS on this or is it a legit home made secondary burn?



The video shows a modified englander furnace. That's the same light show I get in our furnace, without the modifications. You can save a few dollars and purchase a furnace in return to modify it to burn cleanly, but you also void it's warranty, and void a policy with the insurance company. I haven't seen the Tundra in person yet, but like I say I do know the firebox. For your budget, the tundra would fall within or below your budget. The burn tubes are stainless, there's a multiple-speed blower, a secondary heat exchanger and a fully insulated firebox with the tundra. For 500.00, it would be well worth the extra to upgrade. Not saying the englander is a bad furnace, but going from a basic furnace to a more advanced combustion furnace was a night and day difference. The same can be said for those who have upgraded their stoves.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 5, 2013)

Yeah, your basement isn't where you want a burn lab to be.


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## brenndatomu (Oct 5, 2013)

Kuumas, yeah, prolly gonna blow your budget, I think they're in the $4k range, they have prices listed on their site BTW.
As for the video you mentioned, you right, he's got some legit secondary burn goin on there. On his most recent video (the 8 minute one) notice (about the 1:43 mark)  what he says, about why he did what he did. He says "I was concerned about how much wood she was chewing through"
All those lazy, floating flames you see at the top of the firebox in his video, the gasses that are being burnt would be creosote in your chimney if not burnt up. Also, that's wasted potential heat. 98% of it those gasses would not burn (read smoke) without that secondary burn system he installed.
I guess if ya don't mind spendin a bunch if time cuttin/modding on your new furnace (to get that clean burn), voiding the warranty, and canceling your home insurance, go for it! Me, I'd spend the extra 5 bills, get me a quality built furnace, with modern technology clean burn, that's not gonna void my HO insurance if I have a fire.
Will the Englander heat your house? Yup, probably. Will a 1982 Ford Fairmont get you to work, yup, probably.


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## KL3540 (Oct 5, 2013)

Lol, great analogy.... You made several great points. Main one is insurance Point taken.  Will the tundra heat my house?


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## BrotherBart (Oct 5, 2013)

Yeah I own a raft of Englander stoves and if their furnace had ever been made a clean burner like them I would already have one in this joint and some of the others sold.

Get the one designed for it. Grief and wood savings pay you back many times over many years.


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## laynes69 (Oct 5, 2013)

KL3540 said:


> Lol, great analogy.... You made several great points. Main one is insurance Point taken.  Will the tundra heat my house?



Depends....There's many things to take into consideration. Climate, layout of the home, insulation levels, tightness, etc. If you could supply some information, we could get a better idea of what your looking at.


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## STIHLY DAN (Oct 5, 2013)

When it comes to burning wood, spend the $$$$$$$$$$$$$. It is well worth it. I have the KUUMA, and it is $4,600 which is a lot of $$. I was very nervous about this endeavor. It was so worth it. So much heat, so easy to use, and no cleaning or maintenance. Plus very little wood used. Makes wood burning fun and cheap. Spend the cash now and save for the next 20 years of easy cheap heat. This unit changed my life.


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## KL3540 (Oct 5, 2013)

A Kuma does sound nice but frankly its not in my budget. 

I am from south eastern Michigan (thumb area). My home was built in 2007 and very well insulated. It's a ranch with 3 bedrooms on the east side of house and master on the west side of house.  Between the rooms is the family room/ kitchen and dining room which is open to each other.  3 bedrooms are 8' ceilings, master has 10' ceiling and kitchen / family rand from 10-13' tall.  Main floor is what I am concerned about at 2500 sqft.


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## brenndatomu (Oct 6, 2013)

I'm sayin a Tundra would likely heat your house. If not completely, then 95%, you know, all but the coldest days type of situation. The Tundra is rated to heat up to 2500ft by the mfg. so unless your house has a high heat load for it's size/age...

You could do what I did/doing, put the furnace in, use/enjoy it for a couple years, let my bank account recover. Now I am gonna install a small wood burning insert (anybody wanna buy some nice gas logs?) in the fireplace to "take the chill off" (and fire TV for ambiance ) on those spring/fall days when firing "the beast" (see avatar) would just be too much heat!
For any of you who are familiar with my setup, you are prolly saying "why not just use the oil backup on those days?" Well, I guess when I have 10 cords of "free" wood stacked up, ready to go, I have a hard time (read cheap) burnin the oil unless we are going away...


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## laynes69 (Oct 6, 2013)

Based on what your saying, I don't think you should have any issues heating your home. Do make sure however to refer to the manual before purchasing or installing. There's strict duct clearances that need to be followed with any wood furnace. All your clearances will be in the manual. Stick with a 6" chimney and you'll be in good shape.


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## KL3540 (Oct 6, 2013)

Well, zipidy doo dah.  It's like you read my mind. We already have a wood burning fireplace (insufficient but does do well and has great ambiance) and it will be replaced with an insert one day. 

Ok, the tundra is now on top contender. Now I need to figure out piping pricing and how that will be run. 

My thought is, learn everything I can by November 5th.  This is the day I learn if I get laid off or essentially have a job forever. Crazy feeling and stressed to no end.   After November 5th I hope to be making the purchase and enjoying a nice winter.


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## brenndatomu (Oct 6, 2013)

Oh wow, hope everything goes your way!

Well, I dunno how things usually go for you, but if I was buying a stove in November, it wouldn't be up n running 'til 'bout, ah, maybe April!


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## KL3540 (Oct 7, 2013)

brenndatomu said:


> Oh wow, hope everything goes your way!
> 
> Well, I dunno how things usually go for you, but if I was buying a stove in November, it wouldn't be up n running 'til 'bout, ah, maybe April!




I truly believe it will work out. It is a millage for "police/fire/roads". Our city has the lowest taxes around.  With this small increase it will keep the services intact.  If it fails, they close a fire house, and make some pretty substantial cuts. The city has cut from every area possible thus far.  We have some phenomenal support from the residents and local business's. My only concern is if BIG government upsets people enough that they take it out on the small local government ( enough is enough kind of attitude) which I understand.

Off my soap box I could go on for hours.

I am usually the same way and procrastinate, however I will hire someone so its done correct (neighbor ) and me being anxious will motivate me enough to get it done.


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## KL3540 (Oct 7, 2013)

So, bang for buck: Tundra ?


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## brenndatomu (Oct 7, 2013)

FWIW, I personally think it's the only real choice in your price range...


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## KL3540 (Nov 2, 2013)

Can a wood add on and gas furnace be "on" and running at the same time?


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## brenndatomu (Nov 2, 2013)

Depends, definitely wouldn't be an ideal situation by any means, but if what you mean is the wood runs out and the fire dies down, then the gas furnace kicks on, yeah, OK. But if you mean running the gas furnace while the wood burner is still hot, _not good_, something is likely gonna overheat!


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## KL3540 (Nov 2, 2013)

Lol, thank you for the reality check of over heating...  Silly thought...   

When people say they use the wood to keep the house a base temp so the furnace doesn't have to work as hard, or essentially: ( wood keeps it up to say 60 degrees and furnace does the rest.... How does that work?


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## brenndatomu (Nov 2, 2013)

Well, how I did it was to run the wood burner as much as possible to keep the house at my preferred temp (70-72 for us), then if I'm gone too long of a stretch or the weather is just too cold and the house temp drops to, say 5 degrees less than ideal (65-68 for us), then the thermostat that controls the $$$ burning furnace kicks on.

Still kicking tires?


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## KL3540 (Nov 2, 2013)

I still think I am sold on the drolet... I even checked the max caddy. Again its out of my budget, but it has bells and whistles I don't need.  Oil burnin, Coal burning,  blower with multiple settings with the click of a switch ...  I think you definitely get what you pay for, and the unit is beefy but its not my exact fit. I think the drolet is my fit however I am only concerned with sqft.   This is only due to not knowing and have no experience with wood burners at all.


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## laynes69 (Nov 2, 2013)

There are 3 types of installations on furnaces, and that's series, parallel, and stand alone. A stand alone is just that, a furnace that contains a blower with it's own ducting. A series install uses the central furnace's blower to distribute heat through the ductwork. A parallel install is 2 units ducted together which share the same ductwork, but run independently through the use of dampers in the system. A parallel install should not operate both units at the same time due to blower differences, usually the central furnace and woodfurnace would be set 5 or more degrees apart to help prevent this from happening. For us, I just turn off the central furnace. A serIes install is the only install that both units can operate at the same time, but more modern wood furnaces have an interlock that prevents the central furnace from firing if the temperature of the wood furnace is too high for safety.

The best option to figure out your needs for the home, is to do a heat loss calculation or get a rough idea on the btu's needed to heat your home. From there, find the average output of the furnace and find a match. One that's sized too big will cause problems as well as one that's too small.


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## KL3540 (Nov 3, 2013)

How do I go about figuring out the heat loss.... As far as the BTUs, I assume its bit as easy as looking at my current natural gas furnace and seeing what it produces?..... Oh well, as of Tuesday I will know if I  am going for this install or not... Then its crunch time to get one picked out, an installer setup get this thing fired up.


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## blades (Nov 3, 2013)

As I said before the Tundra (couple other names same unit) is your best bang for the buck for your application.  Canadian made.  Your home as compared to a lot of ours should be quite a bit better overall insulation/air infiltration wise than the bulk of ours. 
It is a purpose built WOOD burning heater, not a coal unit that wood is an after thought ( Daka, Yukon others). Backed up by a company that seems to care about its customers. (US stove left a bad taste around here) I would suggest the Kumma but their units are double your budget.
There are a couple others available, small names, one built here in WI, very obscure, and again double your budget ( was three times mine at the time also) I do not know if it is still made and at present the name escapes me. There some excellent European units as well, again way over budget, support questionable.


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## laynes69 (Nov 3, 2013)

I Didn't go through the entire thread again, I only saw where you were concerned on sq footage. Theres a calculator on build it solar where you can plug in numbers to get a rough idea on what's needed. The only variable would be your ach, or air changes per hour. You should be fine. Here is a little program to play around with.

http://www.builditsolar.com/References/Calculators/HeatLoss/HeatLoss.htm


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## brenndatomu (Nov 3, 2013)

Looking at your current furnace size won't tell the whole story. Your gas furnace makes xxx BTUs for the 10 minutes or so that it runs, then shuts off for an hour. A wood furnace makes less BTUs on average, but it is _constant_, so it really adds up. If you knew how many minutes per day your gas furnace actually was firing you could calculate it out. Or if your furnace is the only thing gas fired in your house (I know, not likely) then you could roughly figure it out from your gas bill. Amount used x BTU per therm x furnace efficiency or something like that. Use laynes calculator ^^^ really handy!


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## KL3540 (Nov 3, 2013)

Holy moly... Well there is alot if information on that site.....  I figured out my heating degree days is approx 5300.  As far as My heat loss it's a tough one to figure out.  They offer wood exterior as an option and mine is brick.  My house was also built with 2x6 construction. I assume the windows are decent as well.  Then figuring space from the sheath to insulation.... It appears to be a calculus nightmare. Ok, I am exaggerating a bit.    Although I do see the importance of it all, I wish I could build a darn fire, sit back and watch the house be warm. 

PS this appears to be another one of life's onions.   Knowing absolutely nothing about something makes it seem so elementary. The more I learn, the more layers of the onion there are.  It literally keeps going and going.   

I want a wood burner.  Ok, what kind? wood insert, wood add on furnace, out door furnace.
Ok, furnace it is.   Ok home square footage and I should be set. Wrong again.

Ok budget ( so I thought is $2000 has now become $3000.). Triple  wall piping, through the wall kit, installation by a licensed wood man (so insurance covers it) ( township permit). Some of this I knew.   Some I knew and amazing how much I had to learn.  Wow. All for a steal box and wood to burn. Lol.... Ok again exaggerating a bit.   I can't wait to throw logs in and heat my home.   All the prep work is amazing and I haven't spent a dime.


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## brenndatomu (Nov 3, 2013)

Good thing about an add on wood furnace is that it is just that, an add on, doesn't have to be "perfect". You kinda make it the "right size" by loading it appropriately, light wood load for a light heating load. And when it gets real cold and it can't keep the house warm even with a full load of Oak or Locust, some good hardwood, well, then the gas furnace just kicks on for a bit. And you'd probably be surprised how seldom that would happen once you get used to running a wood burner. In my experience, others may argue, I'd rather have a wood burner that is just a bit on the small side than too big. (In other words, it won't quite keep up on those few coldest days of the year) Too big means a _big_ firebox that is hard to get burning hot without putting a larger load of wood in it, then it's prolly gonna run ya outta the house (hot). Or you put a load of wood in and don't let it burn hot, (clean) then it smolders away and plugs your chimney up! (been there, no fun)
FWIW, I still believe the Tundra would be a good choice for you, JMO...


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## arbutus (Nov 3, 2013)

Get the one with the secondary burn if you are going to be using it regularly.  I don't have experience with an add on furnace, but with a regular wood stove - both the older non epa and the newer epa rated with secondary burn.  Much longer fires, much better performance in terms of wood used and even heat from the model with a secondary burn.


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## KL3540 (Nov 4, 2013)

Ahhh... Well it's bed time and I again think I am sold on the drolet heatmax / tundra.  

It does have a secondary burn.    

Less than 2 days and I will know my answer ( I hope). 

All input is welcomed and appreciated ......


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## georgia hillbilly (Nov 4, 2013)

I own a Charmaster and wouldnt have anything else, even if it was free of charge. look on craigslist for a used one and save a pile. I just made a thread about how well they work, and how many less parts they have that can go bad.


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## KL3540 (Nov 6, 2013)

Great news, I am keeping my JOB!

   Now the I am pretty set on the Drolet, it's time to find an installer.


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## Woodman37 (Dec 27, 2013)

I have to agree with stihly Dan on this one. Spend a little more and it will definitely pay off in the long run. I had a woodchuck model 4000 installed 3 years ago and it's more than already paid for itself considering what I would've spend on oil in that time. Plus it's American made and I think one of the best quality made.


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## Overmann55 (Apr 15, 2014)

KL3540 said:


> If anyone can youtube David Brisson Englander. Do you call BS on this or is it a legit home made secondary burn?



Dave here... totally legit folks. I have several people who completed the project and are currently saving on wood, seeing a lot less smoke overall - no more THICK BLACK smoke at all...save on wood, get more heat etc. No Brainer and the project is not that hard to do. I will even send you the directions and a parts list if you want to try it out. Worst case scenario is you have two little holes that you will need welded or capped if you decide it is not for you. But I promise you that this works well and your stove will run better than it ever has. I understand if you are skeptical... but I am not selling anything. ... just trying to help people out. Good Luck and stay warm.


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## KL3540 (Apr 15, 2014)

Thank YOU for actually responding.  I truly like when real people do things to help others.     I will have to do some research when I build a barn now. As for heating my home this way, the cost added up to much to justify it.

I would have to add electronic dampers, piping and all this got to expensive.  Best guess around 8k.

As for the local heateplace, lol... I had them out for an estimate and he never called me back.  NEVER. I asked several comparison questions regarding the drolet and caddi.  He was honest and admitted he has never installed one which I appreciated. I read alot and asked alot of questions. He had great answers why everything from his piping is a better class than the local farm store to prices of install and why I would need the electric dampers.   However, he still never called me back.  I am still waiting by the phone.... 5+ months later.

However, I can't to the Englander with the modification because insurance wouldn't cover if I torched my house..... Sooo I decided I will sell a little wood here and there, enjoy my natural fireplace for the one being, and when I build a barn I will install a wood furnace in there.  

When I finish my basement, I will most likely throw a wood insert type burner down there ...  

Sorry for being drawn out, I thank you for your reply. 

I am on several forums and love to put out simple things I learn to help others.


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