# How quick do you suppose this poplar will season inside vs outside?



## saskwoodburner (Dec 15, 2015)

Seeing I get told on a near daily basis what a wild and crazy party animal I am (yeah....not really) I thought I'd test a piece of poplar for fun. I'm curious how big a difference there will be for inside vs outside seasoning, for a round split in two.

I have a green unseasoned small round of white poplar, well about 6.25" x 15", that was split as close to half as I could. One chunk is 7.25 lbs, the other 7.75 lbs, although they look about the same.

How long until the inside seasoned piece will be good enough for the stove do you suppose? A month? March 2016? Next fall? I don't know either lol. One will sit in my stove room, the other in the wood shed.

I don't want to keep splitting the wood smaller and smaller, but I should be able to figure moisture content based on something? Weight of water in a cylinder shape? In any event, the rate of moisture should drop slow enough for me to figure it out by weight. Or at least tell me how much quicker the piece inside is drying out.

Our winter is about to show up, so I'll wager the outdoor piece will lose the race in a big way.

Any thoughts or musings appreciated.

According to math-volume of a cylinder, this whole piece is 460 cubic inches of wood. So, with 1728 being a cubic foot of wood, this piece is about 27 % of a cubic foot, with that being divided in 2. Each piece is approx. 230 cubic inches of wood. Now to figure weight of unseasoned poplar per cubic foot.

According to more math, each cubic foot of this wood (would) weigh about 55.5 lbs.


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## English BoB (Dec 15, 2015)

Obviously wood keep warmer will dry quickest - and the closer to the stove will make a difference - if its turned, that will effect the outcome - if its in the path of any air movement that will help as well as the amount of time the stove is used and how hot it runs .
my guess is March 15th 2016 the wood will have a m/c fit for burning.

bob


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## drz1050 (Dec 15, 2015)

As soon as you split it, take a moisture reading of both pieces, then weigh them. The weight of water is a known. Weight of wood depends on subspecies, area of growth, any knots, etc etc... 

Say it reads 50% off the bat. 1 gallon of water weighs 8.34 lbs. If your piece weighs ~16 lbs, you have about 1 gallon in there. Weigh it every few months on the same scale, and then you can calculate how much was lost.

Inside vs outside... I have a very wet basement, so that would obviously be a bad place for seasoning wood. It depends more on airflow and humidity content of the surrounding environment than temperature.


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## saskwoodburner (Dec 15, 2015)

I just have the one piece sitting inside, but need it to warm up to take a moisture reading. I haven't figured out where in the room to put it yet. Maybe beside the couch to the wall so as to not influence it too much from the stove. And to keep it out of sight.

I know the inside piece will win by a mile, but just for fun I think it will be interesting.

The outside piece gets -10 to -40 Celsius (14 to -40 F) for temps, and the inside piece gets 60-82 F with 40 % humidity.


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## drz1050 (Dec 15, 2015)

Is the outside piece top covered? In a windy spot? Even ice cubes in your freezer will sublimate, faster when left exposed to the air in there.. 

Edit: just read that it's in the wood shed.. to be fair, I'd leave this piece exposed as much as possible in there- nothing in front, back or behind it. A piece of wood in a stack will always take longer to dry than one left out.. have to compare apples to apples.

I also think the inside piece will win, especially if you have a ceiling fan running.


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## saskwoodburner (Dec 15, 2015)

Oh for sure, the wood shed, on a shelf by itself.


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## Poindexter (Dec 15, 2015)

weigh both pieces in two weeks so we can get a slope started on the data you got.


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## saskwoodburner (Dec 16, 2015)

Hard to say what the true moisture is, my MM points north of 44% on this wood.


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## paul bunion (Dec 16, 2015)

saskwoodburner said:


> Hard to say what the true moisture is, my MM points north of 44% on this wood.



But it will be very easy to calculate the starting % when the piece stabilizes and you can use your MM on it.    It probably was near 100% on the stump.  You also haven't said how long since it was cut.  Wood does lose water in round form, just not as quick as when split.  

With respect to drying, the initial drying is very fast, then is slows down.    Depending on its surface temp you should see the stove room piece lose about 2/3 of the weight that it is going to actually lose in a matter a week or so, then another 30 days for it to stabilize at the driest you can get it.   So weigh it daily if you want to get a handle on what is happening, especially in the beginning. 

I've seen red maple lose 43% of its weight when originally weighed within minutes of being felled, bucked and split.  Poplar will probably be similar so assuming your stuff was very fresh cut I'd expect you to see final weights in the range of 4.25-4.5 pounds.   Equivalent of a piece going from 90% on a dry basis (MM reading) to 8%.


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## TedyOH (Dec 16, 2015)

5% MC difference is my guess.


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## saskwoodburner (Dec 16, 2015)

paul bunion said:


> But it will be very easy to calculate the starting % when the piece stabilizes and you can use your MM on it.    It probably was near 100% on the stump.  You also haven't said how long since it was cut.  Wood does lose water in round form, just not as quick as when split.
> 
> With respect to drying, the initial drying is very fast, then is slows down.    Depending on its surface temp you should see the stove room piece lose about 2/3 of the weight that it is going to actually lose in a matter a week or so, then another 30 days for it to stabilize at the driest you can get it.   So weigh it daily if you want to get a handle on what is happening, especially in the beginning.
> 
> I've seen red maple lose 43% of its weight when originally weighed within minutes of being felled, bucked and split.  Poplar will probably be similar so assuming your stuff was very fresh cut I'd expect you to see final weights in the range of 4.25-4.5 pounds.   Equivalent of a piece going from 90% on a dry basis (MM reading) to 8%.



I was cutting wood at the start of November, so 4-5 weeks since cut.


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## saskwoodburner (Jan 14, 2016)

Just a small update, the inside piece went from 7lb 4 oz down to 5lb 7 oz Dec 15 to Jan 14, about 1.75 lb drop. I'm surprised by this weight drop, considering the wood is in the living room, out of the way of anything, hiding 15 feet away from the stove. It also has decent checking/cracks on the end grain as well. I'll check the wood shed piece later.


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## sportbikerider78 (Jan 14, 2016)

It will season the second you shut your stove down for the year.


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## Blowingsmokeupyourchimney (Jan 14, 2016)

I think no one has mentioned relative humidity yet. If the humidity inside your home is only 30% (because of the low temps outside) and possibility of humidity outside (low temperatures hold less moisture). The wood in the house will dry darn fast.

I have a closet door with wood louvers and every winter some fall out and they stay put in the summer.


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## Wood Duck (Jan 15, 2016)

One way to know the moisture content of the wood is to weigh it during the test, then at the end of the test completely dry both pieces in an oven and weight them. Afterward you can calculate the moisture contents based on the weights you measured.


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## saskwoodburner (Jan 15, 2016)

Wood Duck said:


> One way to know the moisture content of the wood is to weigh it during the test, then at the end of the test completely dry both pieces in an oven and weight them. Afterward you can calculate the moisture contents based on the weights you measured.



Is this something that can be done relatively safe at 170-200 f? How long should it take ballpark?


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## saskwoodburner (Jan 15, 2016)

Finally weighed the outside piece, and it went from 7 lb 12 oz to 7 lb 10.9 oz...a whole 1.1 ounces lost. I suppose that's interesting in itself as the weather has been below freezing.

A bit early to call the race, but I think indoor piece is winning.


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## Poindexter (Jan 15, 2016)

saskwoodburner said:


> Is this something that can be done relatively safe at 170-200 f? How long should it take ballpark?



You want to be over the boiling point of water, but under the combustion point of wood.  So higher than 212, less than 600.  In academic articles I am used to reading about 250 and/or 275 dF ovens.  

Ballpark, many hours.  The "gold standard" seems to be to take it out of the oven, weigh it, put it back in the oven for two more hours, weigh it again and find the same weight as two hours previously.

I'll go with three days, ballpark, never tried it.


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## Wood Duck (Jan 17, 2016)

saskwoodburner said:


> Is this something that can be done relatively safe at 170-200 f? How long should it take ballpark?



I don't really know much about the best temperature to dry wood, but there is an old thread on here somewhere that discusses drying wood in an oven. I am sure 200 degrees is safe, just not sure how long it would take to dry. I would dry it a few hours, weigh it ,then dry some more. When you can't make it any lighter you have dried away all the free moisture.


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## Hasufel (Jan 17, 2016)

Wood Duck said:


> I don't really know much about the best temperature to dry wood, but there is an old thread on here somewhere that discusses drying wood in an oven. I am sure 200 degrees is safe, just not sure how long it would take to dry. I would dry it a few hours, weigh it ,then dry some more. When you can't make it any lighter you have dried away all the free moisture.


UT Knoxville put out a publication on moisture content of firewood in which they dried the wood in an oven at 220 F for 12-24 hours. Spoiler alert: "Seasoned" firewood they purchased at local stores averaged 66% MC.


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## saskwoodburner (Jan 17, 2016)

Wood Duck said:


> I don't really know much about the best temperature to dry wood, but there is an old thread on here somewhere that discusses drying wood in an oven. I am sure 200 degrees is safe, just not sure how long it would take to dry. I would dry it a few hours, weigh it ,then dry some more. When you can't make it any lighter you have dried away all the free moisture.



I think I'll want to weigh the pieces mid Feb, then again mid March, and possibly give it a bit of oven time then. Glad my hobbies are cheap.


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## Poindexter (Jan 17, 2016)

saskwoodburner said:


> I think I'll want to weigh the pieces mid Feb, then again mid March, and possibly give it a bit of oven time then. Glad my hobbies are cheap.



I think the outdoors sample will stabilize around the Fiber Saturation Point, about 30%MC give or take.  IIRC the word for water evaporating from ice straight to a vapor is sublimation, but its been a while.  Once you get all the ice sublimated out of the tubules and are at FSP I think sublimation will slow down to essentially zero.


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## Poindexter (Jan 17, 2016)

Local to me researchers found green healthy trees harvested in September and split right away seasoned down to almost the Fiber Saturation Point (+/- 30%MC) over the winter.

page 20 of the .pdf for the multicolor graph.

http://www.cchrc.org/sites/default/files/docs/WoodStorageBestPractices.pdf


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## saskwoodburner (Jan 17, 2016)

I just had a quick look there, but some interesting reading. I knew poplar seasoned quick but I didn't realize it sublimated that much (if split) during the winter. Most of my poplar fall/early winter cut is still in rounds ready to be split. I should have split it during this cold snap, but i suppose winter's not over yet.


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## jatoxico (Jan 17, 2016)

saskwoodburner said:


> I just had a quick look there, but some interesting reading. I knew poplar seasoned quick but I didn't realize it sublimated that much (if split) during the winter. Most of my poplar fall/early winter cut is still in rounds ready to be split. I should have split it during this cold snap, but i suppose winter's not over yet.


You're not missing much if anything. That free water is easily lost in a very short time in warmer weather. What took a couple months will happen in a week of spring.


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## Whiskey Fun (Jan 17, 2016)

Much less scientific than your approach, but I've been "speed seasoning" my wood in the stove room, about a 1/4 cord at a time, and really noticed a difference after installing a ceiling fan. Since the outdoor piece gets wind, shouldn't the inside piece also get wind?


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## saskwoodburner (Jan 17, 2016)

jatoxico said:


> You're not missing much if anything. That free water is easily lost in a very short time in warmer weather. What took a couple months will happen in a week of spring.



There's no doubt about that.


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## saskwoodburner (Jan 17, 2016)

jatoxico said:


> You're not missing much if anything. That free water is easily lost in a very short time in warmer weather. What took a couple months will happen in a week of spring.



There's no doubt about that. I wouldn't even have any dodgy wood this year if it wasn't for all the late season rain we received


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## saskwoodburner (Jan 25, 2016)

saskwoodburner said:


> Just a small update, the inside piece went from 7lb 4 oz down to 5lb 7 oz Dec 15 to Jan 14, about 1.75 lb drop. I'm surprised by this weight drop, considering the wood is in the living room, out of the way of anything, hiding 15 feet away from the stove. It also has decent checking/cracks on the end grain as well. I'll check the wood shed piece later.



Weighed the indoor piece again, it's dropped another 4 oz since Jan. 14th, so 5 lb 3 oz., so it's going a bit slower now.


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## saskwoodburner (Feb 5, 2016)

Another 12 days, and inside piece has shed 3 oz and a hair, sitting at 5 lb. So it's dropped 2.25 lb since I started the thread Dec 15th. A weight loss of 31 % of total (I think) so far.


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## saskwoodburner (Feb 23, 2016)

Inside piece has dropped from 7.25 lb to 4.75 lbs now, for a total of 2.5 lbs lost (34 % lighter) . Outside piece has dropped from 7.75 to 7.5 lb, only a quarter lb lost (3 % lighter). Our weather is above average temps at the moment, so I assume the outdoor piece might start shedding weight a little quicker.

This has been like watching a 71 day turtle race.


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## English BoB (Feb 23, 2016)

Very interesting, keep us up to date.

bob


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## saskwoodburner (Feb 23, 2016)

English BoB said:


> Very interesting, keep us up to date.
> 
> bob



I really wish I would have started off with more pieces at the same time. A round set in the corner for a year/twin outside, a group the same as I have, but split and moisture test in a month etc


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## saskwoodburner (Mar 10, 2016)

Here we are again, inside piece down to 4 lb 9 oz, and outside piece at 7 lb 5 oz.


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## jatoxico (Mar 11, 2016)

saskwoodburner said:


> Here we are again, inside piece down to 4 lb 9 oz, and outside piece at 7 lb 5 oz.


It's starting to warm up (here anyway). Out-ty should start catching up soon!


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## bwise.157 (Mar 11, 2016)

I cut down 7 Aspen trees a few years ago in March.  I cut, split and stacked by Memorial Day that year, then burned that fall.  I didn't have a moisture meter, but it burned great... For poplar.  It was dry.  I covered my stacks.  No hissing or water coming out when placed into the stove.


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## Hasufel (Mar 11, 2016)

So, I've been doing my own drying test for a little over a month now, but I used smallish pieces to speed up the process (because I wanted data FAST!). I used freshly bucked and split red oak heartwood and tried to keep the pieces as uniform as possible. I cut eight pieces altogether, four large (those numbered "1" on the charts, about 2-1/4" X 3" X 4-1/2") and four small (those numbered "2" on the chart, about 1-1/8" X 2" X 4-1/2"). Starting MC was too high for my meter, so somewhere over 50%. I placed one large and one small piece in each of four locations: A = a wood bin in a heated indoor living space; B = an unheated but closed garage; C = the top of a covered outdoor firewood rack; and D = the top of an uncovered outdoor firewood rack. 

Some of the results were as I expected but others were a bit of a surprise. The smaller pieces dried faster than their larger counterparts, and the indoor wood dried much faster than any of the outdoor samples (because the air gets pretty dry in here during heating season). The wood in my garage dried much faster than I expected, outperforming the outdoor samples during all but the warmest weather. The uncovered outdoor wood dried the least, but it's been pretty wet and only recently warmed up. You can pretty clearly tell when we got precipitation by the blips in the chart. When the weather was favorable, the uncovered outdoor wood dried more quickly but still not fast enough to make up for the exposure to precipitation. I'll keep tracking this for a while to see if the uncovered wood catches up and then eventually oven-dry the wood so that I can convert the charts to a moisture content scale. But for now, here are my results (chart 1 = larger pieces, chart 2 = smaller; normalized to account for slight differences in sample size):


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## paul bunion (Mar 13, 2016)

Hasufel said:


> So, I've been doing my own drying test for a little over a month now, but I used smallish pieces to speed up the process (because I wanted data FAST!). I used freshly bucked and split red oak heartwood and tried to keep the pieces as uniform as possible. I cut eight pieces altogether, four large (those numbered "1" on the charts, about 2-1/4" X 3" X 4-1/2") and four small (those numbered "2" on the chart, about 1-1/8" X 2" X 4-1/2"). Starting MC was too high for my meter, so somewhere over 50%. I placed one large and one small piece in each of four locations: A = a wood bin in a heated indoor living space; B = an unheated but closed garage; C = the top of a covered outdoor firewood rack; and D = the top of an uncovered outdoor firewood rack.
> 
> Some of the results were as I expected but others were a bit of a surprise. The smaller pieces dried faster than their larger counterparts, and the indoor wood dried much faster than any of the outdoor samples (because the air gets pretty dry in here during heating season). The wood in my garage dried much faster than I expected, outperforming the outdoor samples during all but the warmest weather. The uncovered outdoor wood dried the least, but it's been pretty wet and only recently warmed up. You can pretty clearly tell when we got precipitation by the blips in the chart. When the weather was favorable, the uncovered outdoor wood dried more quickly but still not fast enough to make up for the exposure to precipitation. I'll keep tracking this for a while to see if the uncovered wood catches up and then eventually oven-dry the wood so that I can convert the charts to a moisture content scale. But for now, here are my results (chart 1 = larger pieces, chart 2 = smaller; normalized to account for slight differences in sample size):
> 
> ...



I've found oak to run about 85% fresh off the stump.  Your results so far are running the same.    You should go terminal at about 60% drying next to the stove and get to about 54% in the oven   (100/185=54%)..   Easy rule of thumb, a 1/3 loss in weight equals a piece of wood going from 80% to 20%, if it started drier than that the absolute least it could have been was 50%


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## saskwoodburner (Mar 27, 2016)

Here we are again. Inside piece is down to 4 lb 7 oz, from the original 7 lb 4 oz. Weight loss of 2.75 lb

 Outside piece is down to 7 lb 3 oz, from the original 7 lb 12 oz. Weight loss of .5 lb.

Judging by the weight alone of the inside piece, I would probably drop it in the fire if it was pulled from the pile. Most likely a touch on the high side of moisture though.

Elapsed time has been 104 days.


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## saskwoodburner (Apr 6, 2016)

Well, the suspense was killing me, so I split the inside piece a few days ago and checked the moisture. I'm so weak.

Pretty much any reading was 20-22%, except for one time I got a 23% reading, never to be repeated. Total weight for both is 4 lb 4 oz, so 3 lb total weight/water loss in 112 days. In the end, it was neat to see for myself how quickly wood can season.

Still get to race the clock with the outdoor piece, which has since been moved from the shed to outside on a table.


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## Poindexter (Apr 9, 2016)

There is a lot of really good data in here.  I appreciate seeing so many approaches.  Thanks folks.


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## saskwoodburner (Apr 19, 2016)

Well, in the last 40 days, the outside piece has went from 7 lb 5 oz to 6 lb 12 oz, so a hair over 1/2 lb lost in the last 40 days, and 1 lb lost in total. Considering our wonky weather, it's still a surprise. I let it sit on an outside table exposed to the elements, rain/snow/sun/wind.

 I'll pay attention to it a little more, now that the weather is steadily improving. It should give a half baked reference for how the wood in the stacks could be drying.

 Inside piece split in half has dropped one ounce per side over the last 13 days. Seeing as I've already determined I would have burned them 2 weeks ago, I'm just going to let them sit until October, and weigh the inside piece then. Can't see them dropping much anymore.


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## saskwoodburner (Apr 26, 2016)

Outside piece went from 6 lb 12 oz to 6 lb 9.5 oz (2.5 oz loss) in the last 7 days.


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## saskwoodburner (May 8, 2016)

Inside piece (although split) has lost another 4 oz total in the last 30 + days, ringing the bell at 4 lb even.

Outside piece went from 6 lb 9.5 oz to 6 lb 3 oz in 12 days.


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## saskwoodburner (Jun 8, 2016)

I just thought to check the inside piece today, and it has lost only 1 ounce in the last 30 days, sitting at 3 lb 15 oz. I'm guessing it's pretty much stabilized at its moisture content?

Outside piece exposed to the weather is at 5 lb 12 oz, a weight loss of 7 oz in 30 days. Going slower than I thought it would...


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## Jay106n (Jun 8, 2016)

Its been interesting but I'm really not surprised as the inside piece has been exposed to drier warmer (presumably drier) air for a longer period of time in the stove room. I'm sure the outside piece will catch up as it is exposed to the warmer summer temperatures. The inside piece wins the race in the winter months. I wonder what the results would be if you started the race now with another set of splits?


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## saskwoodburner (Jun 9, 2016)

Jay106n said:


> I wonder what the results would be if you started the race now with another set of splits?



Everything here has been bucked and mostly split for awhile, so I'd have to go get a green tree to test that idea.


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## begreen (Jun 9, 2016)

Besides temperature, relative humidity and wind over the wood will have significant drying effect. In particular the latter. An interesting experiment would be to take two splits of identical weight in size and have one inside in a still location and the other with a fan blowing over it. My bet is that a difference would be notable within a week or two. This is why I always try to stack with the prevailing winds blowing through the stack.


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## saskwoodburner (Sep 1, 2016)

Well, the outside piece is down to 5lb 5 oz, having lost about 32 % of its original weight sitting outside exposed to the elements. The inside piece lost about 45 % of its original weight before stabilizing, so it'll be neat to see if outside piece can make the grade by the time the snow falls.


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## Ash (Sep 3, 2016)

Great thread! I've always heard that wood doesn't dry much in the fall so it'll be interesting to see what happens in the next month or two.


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## saskwoodburner (Sep 3, 2016)

Ash said:


> Great thread! I've always heard that wood doesn't dry much in the fall so it'll be interesting to see what happens in the next month or two.



I'll probably run a similar test again with the outdoor pieces covered/uncovered/shade/full exposure.


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