# I'm building a homemade boiler



## warno

I was worrying about putting this on the forum because I know how most feel about somebody building one of these units.  But I feel I'm doing a pretty good job so here's my build thread on my boiler. I'm building this at my work place. I started in February this year.   Let me know what you guys think. Any comments or concerns by all means let me know.

With what I know now I would have built a gasser but I was fully committed to this design before I came to that conclusion.

My plan was to be into the boiler for less then $1000 and then the cost of the install added to that. I'm doing all the work myself. All welding is either MIG or TIG welding. All joints are double welded where possible.

Here's some progress  pics of my build so far

It started life as a 126 gallon upright propane tank. I cut the top out and started with my ash pan.





Then I added some legs and a feed door frame.





Added a heat exchanger adaptor to the tank and a water cooled baffle.









Built a cardboard heat exchanger template.





Then built a heat exchanger





mounted it and started the water jacket floor. My fire box bottom will be lined with fire brick.





Added a front and rear plate to the water jacket





Flue adaptor, water ports and forced air intake pipe.





Sides to the water jacket





A front view





My fan assembly I made up


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## velvetfoot

I am always amazed at the skills, never mind the facilities, that people have at their command.  Incredible.


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## Fitter 73

Nice job so far! 
Hopefully you will get some more constructive feed back. 
Although I am fairly new to the site and the "gasser" venue. 
I am a third generation pipe-fitter by trade, and current owner of a commercial HVAC buisness that has been in my family since the sixty's. 
I will say that I have seen some mass produced equipment from different manufacturers hit the market place over the years, that had far less time, planning, and attention to detail put into them.
Keep up the good work, and update us with your future progress.


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## Jags

Nice fabrication skills.  Your build looks to be a well thought out plan.  Very interested in the final performance.


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## Bret Chase

That looks good, and definitely not a hack job.... are you planning on getting it ASME certified, or inspected by the state?
or is it not actually a steam producing boiler, and just heats water to 180 or so?


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## warno

Thanks for all the positive comments everyone. 

I plan on running my aquastat at 180 for the high side. So I shouldn't be building any steam unless I have an over fire situation.  It's actually going to be an open system with a over flow similar to a Garn so in the event of a boil over it will dump on the ground. 

I'm in the process of getting my doors, all 4 of them,  ready to hang. I still need to build hinges for them as well. The top panel is cut and I have my access opening flange and panel cut as well, I just need to get them added on.


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## duramaxman05

Good job. Looking forward to seeing more progress being made. I have always want to build one but just havent done it. I would like to build my parents one. Maybe one of these days. Keep up the good work.


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## OH_Varmntr

warno said:


> I was worrying about putting this on the forum because I know how most feel about somebody building one of these units.  But I feel I'm doing a pretty good job so here's my build thread on my boiler.



It is quite evident you know what you are doing.  

What is the capacity of the water jacket?


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## Bret Chase

Please don't forget to put in a couple zinc anodes....


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## mike van

Lotta rod in there - Nice work -


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## warno

OH_Varmntr said:


> It is quite evident you know what you are doing.
> 
> What is the capacity of the water jacket?



It's about 120 gallons give or take a few. 



Bret Chase said:


> Please don't forget to put in a couple zinc anodes....



Is it zinc anode rods? Where can I get those? I found some aluminum ones at the hardware store but that seemed strange. I have only ever heard of magnesium anodes before.


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## Bret Chase

warno said:


> It's about 120 gallons give or take a few.
> 
> 
> 
> Is it zinc anode rods? Where can I get those? I found some aluminum ones at the hardware store but that seemed strange. I have only ever heard of magnesium anodes before.



Hmm.... in illinois..... Around here, I'd say go to any boatyard.  there, not sure..  basically you need a zinc *something* in the water jacket... the zinc gives up it's electrons easier than iron does, so it makes your boiler last far, far longer...  You might want to look at a place that sells OWB's....  my cousin has one... and it has zinc anode blocks...


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## leon

I would find out if your homeowners insurance will even cover a
non ASME rated "boiler" let alone a homemade one.

And if not make it an unpressurised water stove out of it and put it in outside under a lean to use it.
Any chilled compressed gas is a completely different animal compared to hot water approaching steam temps.


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## warno

leon said:


> I would find out if your homeowners insurance will even cover a
> non ASME rated "boiler" let alone a homemade one.
> 
> And if not make it an unpressurised water stove out of it and put it in outside under a lean to use it.
> Any chilled compressed gas is a completely different animal compared to hot water approaching steam temps.




I called my insurance company before cutting the first piece of steel. They are ok with it. And this unit I'm building will be completely open to atmosphere at all times so it won't be able to build any pressure. 

Where I work I hold ASME certifications and even with that I didn't want to potential for a "bomb" to be in my back yard. 

Thanks again everyone for all the positive feedback.


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## PassionForFire&Water

Very intrigued by the combustion concept.
Make sure you burn very well seasoned firewood and have anti-condense protection on your boiler


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## maple1

Interesting build for sure - keep us posted.

I can already plainly see you are way ahead of my old boiler re. heat transfer area, and the water cooled baffle spot is also interesting.

Is using some radiant heat off of it part of the plan also? Looks like there might be a fair bit from the exposed bottom part of the firebox, even with some firebrick there.

(Almost looks like a pellet hopper in the background of the second & second last pics, likely isn't though?)


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## warno

PassionForFire&Water said:


> Very intrigued by the combustion concept.
> Make sure you burn very well seasoned firewood and have anti-condense protection on your boiler



Almost all my wood this winter will be oak lumber, from our sheet metal skids at work, mixed with wood from my dad's pile that's been seasoning for over a year now. I'm running a thermomix valve on my return line for my return protection. 



maple1 said:


> Interesting build for sure - keep us posted.
> 
> I can already plainly see you are way ahead of my old boiler re. heat transfer area, and the water cooled baffle spot is also interesting.
> 
> Is using some radiant heat off of it part of the plan also? Looks like there might be a fair bit from the exposed bottom part of the firebox, even with some firebrick there.
> 
> (Almost looks like a pellet hopper in the background of the second & second last pics, likely isn't though?)



I wish I could use the radiant heat from the exposed steel but the insurance company said I have to put it outside my current buildings or they won't have it. So I'm building a small shed around it. It will be cozy wrapped in its insulation blanket and in its own little house. 

The thing in question in the background of the pics is our cabinet sand blaster at work.


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## duramaxman05

What does running a mixing valve on your return do? I am still learning


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## warno

It prevents the return water temperature from going below 140. If your return temps are too low you could shock the steel in the boiler and cause premature problems. Also low return temps around condensing temps could cause condensation in the heat exchanger and flue pipe causing. (Or at least that's what I've read)


I do have a question on wiring for anyone who can help. I'm installing a float switch in the water tank that I would like to shut down the pump and fan assembly if the water gets too low. This is the switch I bought http://vi.raptor.ebaydesc.com/ws/eB...6622&category=67003&pm=1&ds=0&t=1440807126068 could anyone tell me if it's possible or how to wire the switch to shut down my pump and fan?


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## OH_Varmntr

Warno, I hope to help you with your float wiring question.  I'm an electrician at a steel mill, for what it may be worth.  I will explain this in the simplest of terms because I do not know your level of electrical knowledge.

First off, what are you going to use to control when your fan turns on?  An Aquastat?  When do you plan on running your circulator?  24/7 or on demand?

The control power that is used to start your pump and fan relays should be ran through the contact in the float switch. You will need to set the float switch up so that when the float is down, or indicating a low water level, the contact opens the circuit and shuts down the pump and fan. 

So in basic theory, if you are telling your fan and circulating pump to run, the signal should first pass through the float switch before continuing on to the relays which start your fan and pump.

If you provide the information on the control system you'll be using I can further assist you.


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## HisTreeNut

Nice...on the build (and advice also )


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## warno

OH_Varmntr said:


> Warno, I hope to help you with your float wiring question.  I'm an electrician at a steel mill, for what it may be worth.  I will explain this in the simplest of terms because I do not know your level of electrical knowledge.
> 
> First off, what are you going to use to control when your fan turns on?  An Aquastat?  When do you plan on running your circulator?  24/7 or on demand?
> 
> The control power that is used to start your pump and fan relays should be ran through the contact in the float switch. You will need to set the float switch up so that when the float is down, or indicating a low water level, the contact opens the circuit and shuts down the pump and fan.
> 
> So in basic theory, if you are telling your fan and circulating pump to run, the signal should first pass through the float switch before continuing on to the relays which start your fan and pump.
> 
> If you provide the information on the control system you'll be using I can further assist you.



I sent you a message. Thanks


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## leon

warno said:


> It prevents the return water temperature from going below 140. If your return temps are too low you could shock the steel in the boiler and cause premature problems. Also low return temps around condensing temps could cause condensation in the heat exchanger and flue pipe causing. (Or at least that's what I've read)
> 
> 
> I do have a question on wiring for anyone who can help. I'm installing a float switch in the water tank that I would like to shut down the pump and fan assembly if the water gets too low. This is the switch I bought http://vi.raptor.ebaydesc.com/ws/eB...6622&category=67003&pm=1&ds=0&t=1440807126068 could anyone tell me if it's possible or how to wire the switch to shut down my pump and fan?


 

If it is not a triple aquastat you should return it and buy a triple aquastat as that is what you need  

Is this unit a submerged thermocouple for a honeywell or bell and gosset triple aquastat???

Your going to have to decide how much water you want left in that beast B4 you shut it off 
Are you buying a replacement water stove fill plug to control the evaporation rate?? 

Submerged thermocouples are either installed on the top of the boiler when it is used for hydronic heat
or near the base of the steam chest which is where the water level covers the thermocouple and senses
a boil out and shuts the boiler off.

Are you installing a bypass loop in the home to trick the boiler into thinking that its always warm and to save fuel??


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## velvetfoot

I have one of these in my system.  They seem pretty commonplace.  http://www.homedepot.com/p/Safgard-Low-Water-Cut-Off-120-Volt-Oil-Hot-Water-45-550/203205175 .  It uses the conductivity of the water, or lack of it, rather than temperature or a float to trip the boiler.  It's specifically made for this purpose.


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## warno

velvetfoot said:


> I have one of these in my system.  They seem pretty commonplace.  http://www.homedepot.com/p/Safgard-Low-Water-Cut-Off-120-Volt-Oil-Hot-Water-45-550/203205175 .  It uses the conductivity of the water, or lack of it, rather than temperature or a float to trip the boiler.  It's specifically made for this purpose.



I have seen those before. Thanks for the heads up on it. I already have my float switch in hand though. I got some wiring help on how to make everything work together with what I have.


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## warno

Quotation on anode rods. I found one on ebay for cheap and went ahead and got it. I'm wondering if it matters how I orientate the anode in the tank. Could it go in horizontally or is vertical better or does it matter? 

Also how do I know if I need 1 or 2 rods?


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## Bret Chase

doesn't matter... 1 or 2 rods only dictates the replacement interval... 2 rods will last twice as long as one...


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## warno

OK. I'll stick with the one. If I'm eating it up too fast I'll add another later on. 

Thank you all very much for all the help and comments. I should have another update this weekend.


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## warno

Well I decided to burn some vacation time at work to try and get this thing wrapped up, or at least as far as building it goes. Today I got the top welded on, the front HX clean out door and ash pan door as well.

Some pics from today

The top with access panel and lifting eyelet I put in.





Inside the access opening you see the over flow stand pipe





And the way over built top cover. It's one piece 1/4" steel bent and corners welded. 





And aquastat and float switch ports





Doors mounted up with locking toggle latches





Close up on the top door





And hand built hinges





And the gasket holds the dollar bill just fine





Simple aluminum spring clips I made up to hold the gap for the rope gasket





TIG welds for the hinges





MIG welds for everything fire/water related


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## maple1

Man, that welding sure puts the bubble gum work I call my welding to shame.

Nice!


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## OH_Varmntr

Hey warn, are you over on welding web?  I think I've seen you over there.

Anywho, nice looking welds man.  I have a new tig machine on the way.  What filler did you use for the hinges?


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## warno

Another update here. I managed to basically get it done today. Tomorrow I'm going to add some insulation hold points and few other odds and ends but all in all it's done. I put it on the scale after today's progress and it weighs roughly 1400 LBS as it sits now.

A few pics from today

Here's the inner workings of the feed door. I plan to fill this space with refractory cement. It will be about 3" thick.





Rear of the unit. HX clean out door and flue adaptor. I will be transitioning to class A chimney from the pipe sticking out.






Front of unit. Feed door, front HX clean out, and ash pan door.


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## Bret Chase

looks awesome..... you are going to go through a bunch of wood getting it all up to temp...


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## warno

Don't we all have to burn a significant amount of wood the first run? I know it will take a bit to heat the tank, I do plan to keep track of how much wood it eats to do so. I'm getting pretty excited about it.

Thanks for all  the positive feedback.


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## OH_Varmntr

Yep, first runs take a bit longer than to just maintain a temp.  My first run of the year eats the wood.  Heating 800 gallons from 70 to 190 degrees will take roughly 800,000 btus.  My OWB is rated for 250,000 btu/hr but I doubt it actually does that.  Even at 200,000 btu/hr there's 4 hours running full steam ahead.


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## Z33

Those welds are a work of art for sure. 

Any thoughts about some form of insulation around the water jacket to slow the heat loss?


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## warno

Thanks for the compliment. 

Yes I do plan to add insulation all around the water jacket. There will be two wraps worth of  R15 around the sides, top and bottom. And I will be putting mineral wool up against the front and back with a panel of the pink foam stuff over to of that. And it will be going into a small shed I'm building for it.


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## warno

Today I got it ready to bring home. Next week I  need to pay my fee, for using the company tools and materials at work,  and then it can come home with me. I added just a few more things.

The fan assembly mount









I added a second port to the ash pan.  This will be capped off during the heating season, but in the off season I will run a power cord through there to plug in a light to keep moisture at bay in the fire box/heat exchanger.





I also made my feed door interior cover plate. This is just a plate to help shield the refractory from the direct heat of the fire, even though I know refractory is made to take the heat,  also it help hold it in if it starts to break down. It is fully removable if I ever need to completely  replace the refractory in the door.






I also added some studs to hold my insulation tight to the front and back. It will be held down with aluminum channels I'll make at work. I didn't get any pics of the yet though.


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## Bret Chase

warno said:


> Thanks for the compliment.
> 
> Yes I do plan to add insulation all around the water jacket. There will be two wraps worth of  R15 around the sides, top and bottom. And I will be putting mineral wool up against the front and back with a panel of the pink foam stuff over to of that. And it will be going into a small shed I'm building for it.



I don't like the thought of EPS on the outside....  so far you have a completely non combustible assembly... and then you add the EPS...  if it was me, I'd wrap the whole thing with rockwool...  then throw together a quick light gauge frame and put cement board over it... not only is it tough as hell... it can't burn either.

EPS has it's place for sure.... just not on a boiler of any kind, IMHO.


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## Bigg_Redd

warno said:


> I was worrying about putting this on the forum because I know how most feel about somebody building one of these units.



I feel like it's awesome and the haters can eat a large bag of hobo genitalia


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## Bret Chase

OH_Varmntr said:


> Yep, first runs take a bit longer than to just maintain a temp.  My first run of the year eats the wood.  Heating 800 gallons from 70 to 190 degrees will take roughly 800,000 btus.  My OWB is rated for 250,000 btu/hr but I doubt it actually does that.  Even at 200,000 btu/hr there's 4 hours running full steam ahead.



funny anecdote...  almost 15 years ago, when I was still working for my former employer...  the client called in a panic... they had just drained their propane tank (can't remember if it was a 500 or a 1000 gal).. on the initial fire of their radiant floor....  150+ tons of concrete and thousands of feet of PEX in this 75X150 floor...  Of course... once the slab got warmed up... they were VERY happy with fuel consumption.


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## warno

Bret Chase said:


> I don't like the thought of EPS on the outside....  so far you have a completely non combustible assembly... and then you add the EPS...  if it was me, I'd wrap the whole thing with rockwool...  then throw together a quick light gauge frame and put cement board over it... not only is it tough as hell... it can't burn either.
> 
> EPS has it's place for sure.... just not on a boiler of any kind, IMHO.



I really wasn't sold on the idea of the foam either. It was the cheap thing to do is all.  You are right though, I could just do 2 layers of the wool then I could just cover that with some thin aluminum sheeting from work. With the insulation behind the sheeting it shouldn't get very warm.


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## warno

I just got the total from the boss for my boiler project at work. Total cost from what I have paid already and to finish it up, as in what  the last picture shows, $500 out the door. And that's with me rounding up.  Not a bad deal I don't think. I do have a ton of time in it though. Still not bad.


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## Bret Chase

well... it'd be a hell of alot more to buy one already made....


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## warno

Today after work I started on my heat exchangers for the garage. It's a couple of water to air exchangers that I built out at work. I built them with aluminum frames so I could weld on my duct work plenum and my exit side louvers. They are almost done and ready to mount up in the garage.


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## OH_Varmntr

Any pics of your HX's?  Sounds interesting.


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## warno

I could get some tomorrow.


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## warno

I got busy yesterday so here they are today as per request the pics of my heat exchangers. I had one of our sales reps at work size the heat exchanger for me. Then I built them out of scrap materials. I paid $50 for both of them.

Here's my cold air return side. It's a blower fan from a forced air furnace that I built a shroud around and mounted up it the rafters of the garage. I will be building a filter rake for it as well.









Here's the supply side of the system where my HX is. There is another HX going in on the other end of the garage. They will be plumbed in series from the boiler.   I will be filing the gap space with ply wood for a clean look.






Here's some shots of one of the heat exchangers. Sorry for the messy bench in the background. 

I suck at brazing so I had one of our brazers at work do the copper joints for me.

"Header" end view.





"Return" end





Air entering side of plenum





Louver  side of plenum





Aluminum TIG welds holding it all together.





In case anyone is wondering I work in a place that builds industrial refrigeration units and we build heating application items as well.


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## OH_Varmntr

Dang man your beads are beautiful.  Nice work there!


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## hoverwheel

Warno, your welding is probably good enough you could make a living at it 

(Your welds are as much ART as function)


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## warno

hoverwheel said:


> Warno, your welding is probably good enough you could make a living at it
> 
> (Your welds are as much ART as function)



Lol I do make a living at it. I've been a certified welder the past 9 years now.

Thanks everyone for all the comments.


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## brenndatomu

Obviously very well thought out! 
Great fab work too! 
Stuff like this is a ton of fun to build when you have all the cool tools and the skills to use 'em proper like


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## warno

I got it sandblasted this morning. Now I need to paint it before it starts rusting.


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## warno

I got it painted this morning. It's a thin layer but it will be enough. 









Now is time to reassemble and move on to the next part of the project.


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## OH_Varmntr

Looking good man!


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## sequoia

Please explain how this works.


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## maple1

Pretty much like any basic boiler, I'd say. Fire heats the water that's surrounding it, water gets pumped through rads/heat exchangers to heat house.


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## warno

sequoia said:


> Please explain how this works.



What exactly would you like to know? Maple1 hit the basic idea on the head.


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## Wisneaky

This is absolutely amazing work! Now time to begin mass production?


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## warno

Thank you for the compliments everyone. 

I don't think mass production will be happening this one took me over 7 months to complete. Lol


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## sequoia

maple1 said:


> Pretty much like any basic boiler, I'd say. Fire heats the water that's surrounding it, water gets pumped through rads/heat exchangers to heat house.


Got it. Thanks


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## warno

Ill just post my install/ install pics in this thread too. 

I started digging my trench for my underground lines today after work. I learned that hand digging a trench  5 feet away from a tree stump sucks. At least the roots seem to thin out after 1 foot deep. I have a small side walk to go under then up under the garage slab after that. This should be fun. Ill post pics after it's dug with the thermopex in the ground.


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## jatoxico

The boiler must become your avatar. Very cool build.


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## warno

When I get it back together that's an option for sure.


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## warno

I started digging my trench over the weekend. I forgot how much hand digging  a 4 feet deep trench sucks especially with tree roots in the way.

Here's a shot of my install site. The stump is coming out next week. I tried doing the whole "dig around it, cut the roots, yank it out" thing. What a nightmare that was. I have someone coming to grind it out now. Oh yeah, you may notice the orange wire sticking out of the ground, CALL BEFORE YOU DIG, that's our cable/Internet line. I thought it ran on the other side of the tree, nope.






Here's the start of my trench. I made it under the side walk after about 5 hours of digging and cutting tree roots.






I'm still hoping for Halloween to be my first fire, it's a long shot but here's to hoping.

Left to do list:

Finish trench
Put in thermopex
Back fill
Pour concrete pad
Put boiler back together
Anchor boiler on pad
Insulate boiler
Build shed around boiler
insulate shed walls
Line fire box with fire bricks and refractory
Wire everything up
Mount HXs in garage
plumb everything
Build duct work for HXs

Fill it and fire it...maybe?


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## brenndatomu

warno said:


> I forgot how much hand digging a 4 feet deep trench sucks especially with tree roots in the way.





warno said:


> I tried doing the whole "dig around it, cut the roots, yank it out" thing.


I'd rent a mini for a day...two birds one stone...


warno said:


> I'm still hoping for Halloween to be my first fire, it's a long shot but here's to hoping.
> Left to do list:
> Finish trench
> Put in thermopex
> Back fill
> Pour concrete pad
> Put boiler back together
> Anchor boiler on pad
> Insulate boiler
> Build shed around boiler
> insulate shed walls
> Line fire box with fire bricks and refractory
> Wire everything up
> Mount HXs in garage
> plumb everything
> Build duct work for HXs
> Fill it and fire it...maybe?


Wow, hope you have some vaca time you can use!


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## warno

I didn't think a mini excavater would have enough wieght to pull it up, definitely would have been nice on the trench though.

As far as vacation days go. I have used some already to finish my boiler. I do have some I can use but I don't get anymore until this time next year so I like to try and save them since the family gets sick around January/February every year.


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## warno

After I made the trench up and under the garage alittle it decided to train like crazy that night.  So, the next morning I woke up to this disappointment.











I pumped out as much water as I could and started working on the hole in the floor. I wanted it as close to the wall as possible, this meant going through the footing of the garage. Turns out the footing is 20" thick. Now I don't know who thought to make diamond cutting wheels for a 4 1/2" grinder or air hammers or hammer drills,  but thank you very much. After about 10 hours total time, over 3 days, of drilling, cutting and hammering I finally punched through to the outside.

I still need to dig all the concert chunks out of the trench and the rest of the dirt that fell in after knocking the hole in the floor then I can finally run my lines.










I also got my stump ground out. Definitely worth the money to have someone grind that stupid thing out.


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## jatoxico

What do you have planned for your water lines? I know water infiltration into the lines is the enemy.


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## warno

jatoxico said:


> What do you have planned for your water lines? I know water infiltration into the lines is the enemy.



I have have purchased Thermopex for my lines. I'm also adding a drainage tile over top of this area where the lines run. Water shouldn't be an issue.


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## warno

I got my trench cleaned out tonight and the thermopex set in. I also ran my conduits. I ran a 1.5" conduit for the main power leads and I ran a 1/2" conduit for "just in case" low voltage wires. The little conduit will remain empty right now but I may want to run sensor wires or some other low voltage later on. better to run the conduit now then kick myself later for not doing it.


Here's inside the garage right now. I plan to put a sleeve around the thermopex jacket then put concrete back around the sleeve.





Here's ouside. I got the wrong size hole saw for the 1/2" LB so it's going to just hang out with its big brother tonight. But the conduits are in the ground.





The other end of the trench.






I have also started my boiler shed back at work. I scavenged some doors of an electrical  panel we were throwing out. I will be starting the walls tomorrow.


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## hoverwheel

You know we all hate you, right?

(Jk. Keep the updates coming! It's inspiration)


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## warno

I lost a little time the last few days because the wife and my little boy were sick. Family comes first, I had to due the fatherly duty and help get everyone heathy again.

I got into work 2 hours early this morning to get more done on the shed. The Wall frames are built and I stood everything up together. Now I'm ready for the roof frame.


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## moey

WOW.. Thats all I have to say. Your doing what would take many years to do for most folks. Good job..


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## airlina

Warno,really enjoying your project and you are definitely a craftsman, keep it coming!


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## warno

Thanks for all the compliments everyone. 

I got my trench backfilled today after work. I leveled out my area where my pad is going tomorrow morning I'm going to start forming to get ready for concrete.


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## warno

Concrete forms are up, hopefully tomorrow I can get the crete on the ground after work. That will be one more big part done.


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## warno

Today after work I got my concrete poured. Tomorrow I'll pull the forms off and maybe get going back on the finish work of the boiler.









We had to put my son's boot prints in the pad.


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## warno

So progress has slowed a little the past few days. Another project came up that has taken priority. But I do have my shed siding on order, it should be in next week. And the roof frame pieces made at work.

I have a question on my shed build though. What problems will I face if I don't insulate the inside of my shed? My budget is getting streched pretty thin on my install and the spray foam that I wanted will pretty much kill it the rest of the way.

So, if my boiler itself is fully insulated, R15 front and back R30 top, bottom, and sides, will I need to insulate the shed this winter or can it wait?


----------



## OH_Varmntr

I would say it can wait, but you'll obviously lose a bit more heat than if the shed it sets in were fully insulated as well.

My Central Boiler has an enclosure built around it and is not insulated, only the woodburner is.

Another thing that matters is how much wind the shed will be exposed to.  Wind whipping through the seams will accelerate heat loss from inside the shed.


----------



## warno

That's what I was assuming I just thought I'd ask to make sure. Thank you.


----------



## warno

My other project is done so now I can work on this project again. This morning I put a second coat of paint on the boiler and doors. And started wiring my control box. I'll get pics of the  boiler when it's back together.

This box will be mounted in the back of the boiler shed. I wish I would have picked up a bigger box for my controls. This one will do but it's filling up fast. I still have a few things to wire in here yet but here's how it looks right now. 





This switch is in unison with my float switch in the water jacket. If the float switch reads "low water" it will shut off my fan and my circulater pump so it doesn't start sucking air into the lines.





Here's my other control box. This one will be mounted in the front of the shed. The indicator lights are green for "good water level", and red for "low water/system off". The switch is to bypass the aquastat control on the blower fan when loading wood.


----------



## OH_Varmntr

Looking good!


----------



## warno

I've started putting things back together. The 3 clean out doors are on, valves put in place, blower fan mounted, sensor well installed,  float switch installed, and the shed frame is going home with me today from work. 

I picked up my shed siding the other day. So hopefully this weekend I can start putting that on. 





I also tossed in my ash pan and my fire grate.


----------



## warno

I haven't been taking many pics lately but things are getting done. I've got some more wiring done, almost ready to pour my refractory in the fire box, i'm hoping to get the shed siding on this weekend. Then I will get the shed insulation sprayed in. The shed doors are painted to match siding.

Just a few pics of progress.

The front insulation retainer.





The rear retainer didn't turn out quite as nice as I'd hoped but it's holding the stuff on there. I had interference issues with the valves so I had to change things up. 





Shed door paint job.


----------



## BoilerMan

Absolutely beautiful fab work! I am on the other end of the HVAC trade, the design, install and service end. Very nice job, following this progress with eagerness for your first fire!

TS


----------



## warno

The shed frame is on the pad and anchored down. Should be doing siding tomorrow morning. I have also started building my chimney flashing back at work.









The chimney flashing. I rolled a piece of aluminum into a cylinder then welded the seam. I need to weld on the mounting plate for the cylinder yet.  The chimney will pass through the cylinder out the roof.  I have also rolled the stainless pieces into collars for the rain cover over the aluminum cylinder. I will weld tabs on the stainless pieces to bolt them tight to the chimney sections.


----------



## jatoxico

Keep 'em coming Warno!


----------



## warno

Progress on the shed siding. I still need to do the other side of the roof where my access opening and chimney flashing will go, and the trim pieces around the corners. Hoping to get the spray foam done this weekend, fingers crossed.


----------



## warno

Chimney flashing parts. I still need to make my plate for the aluminum cylinder which will screw down to the roof. Then the "cone" collar will be the weather cap over the aluminum cylinder. The other collar will be for support cables if I decide to go up higher with the chimney.


----------



## Z33

Looks like its all coming together! Still on track for Halloween? 


 Are you spray foaming the inside your self or contracting it out?


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## warno

I've kinda shot Halloween in the butt. I don't think it's doable with the amount left. Once I get the shed foamed and boiler in it things will pick up but I still have alot left.

Spray foaming was cheaper to pay someone else for it. Somebody local does it so I called them and got a pretty good price.


----------



## warno

Had my buddy come over with the skid loader to set the boiler in the shed. It fit but it's tight. I will need to get the roof done the rest of the way and get the chimney flashing and access panel done before I can foam the inside. Then off comes the front wall, again, and out the goes the boiler for room to foam the shed walls.


----------



## GENECOP

Very nice....can't wait to see how it performs...


----------



## warno

So quick question here. My boiler is sitting in the shed, shed is not insulated yet, boiler has insulation on front and back but not sides or top. I have 1 piece of 3 feet long class A chimney on the boiler with a bucket on top of it. Is it possible that condensation is building up inside the chimney section just from temperature changes from night to day? There was some water in my HX right under the chimney.


----------



## OH_Varmntr

I'd bet money it's condensation.


----------



## warno

How do I prevent this from happening in the of shut down months through summer? Will getting everything insulated properly help out?


----------



## OH_Varmntr

It should, yes.  But so should filling the water jacket.  It will insulate the firebox as well when you're not burning.


----------



## hoverwheel

I've been following this thread for reasons of envy and finally have a question. Is it common to add telemetry to a boiler like this? To remotely monitor temps, water flow, etc.

Did you run wire for that or would it commonly be done over wifi?


----------



## warno

As of now my setup doesn't have any remote read outs. To see what's going on I will have to open the shed door and check my aquastat. I plan in the future to run some remote sensors into my garage so I don't always have to open the back door of the boiler shed to check temps of things. I believe any remote readings that are added to any boiler system (especially homemade) are up to whatever the owner wants.


----------



## maple1

warno said:


> How do I prevent this from happening in the of shut down months through summer? Will getting everything insulated properly help out?


 
I don't think you'd get the conditions that would create condensation in the summer. It would likely only be at this time of the year (or early spring), at which time you'd maybe be burning? But having water in there too will likely help and insulating - it likely came from the steel cooling off overnight then condensing moisture as the air heated up faster than the steel did when daylight comes.  Were the pics in post 89 with the sun low taken in the evening? If the shed gets blasted by hot sun first thing in the morning that might cause temps inside to raise fast & make condensation. Leaving the door open for good air circulation while your finishing up the insulation & the rest of the job might also help.


----------



## warno

OK thanks guys.

So, more progress pics now.

I started the trim work on the shed today and did a little more plumbing. I'm learning that a 300 ft roll of pex has a mind if it's own.

Here's what is hanging from the ceiling as of now. Lol









Both heat exchangers  are plumbed up.









I used the snap on 90 bends to bring the pex through the ceiling. What a treat they were to use. I found that using a big zip tie on the first side snapped in to hold it there while you fight, for dear life, with the other side helps.





And on the attic side of the ceiling. The coils run in series. This is the second coil in the system.





This is the first coil in line.





And where the lines go back through.





This is the blower fan for the forced air system.





And I took a quick pic of the shed before the rain really cut loose. I still need a few more sealer screws on the trim but the rain shut me down.


----------



## OH_Varmntr

A blow dryer helps to loosen up the coiled pex.  You can also slide the pex through 1 1/4" pvc conduit elbows to make hard 90s without using fittings.


----------



## warno

I tried the ready heater for the heat trick but I was worried about hurting the pex line.


----------



## warno

I finished the chimney flashing and pulled the boiler back out of the shed for foaming. I have a few things to do to the shed before it's spray foamed but that  will get done this week.

I started the flashing at work and finished welding it at home. I didn't get a pic of it mounted up but here's what it looked like tacked.


----------



## warno

I've got a bunch done since the last update.

Chimney flashing mounted
Shed siding completed
Shed is insulated
Boiler is in its final place
Plumbing in garage is done
Electrical in garage is done



Couple pics of progress. sorry no pics of shed yet. 

I had this guy supervising the whole thing this morning. 





I had to build the wall out for the plumbing to mount to it. It sort of worked out because now I can use the dead space behind the mounting board as garage junk storage.









Circulator Pump mounting location





Pump mounted





 I made up some aluminum mounts to hold the pump





Thermomix valve plumbed up and mounted









overall plumbing. It could have been alittle nicer but it will work for me.


----------



## jatoxico

Keep 'em coming we're watching!


----------



## GENECOP

The cold is coming, get er done...


----------



## warno

I know, I'm trying to finish things up. 

I finished the wiring this morning early before work. 

Things that are left to do:

Hook up overflow to shed wall
Duct work in garage
Insulation around boiler
Chimney weather cap
Refractory
Fill for pretreatment
Drain pretreatment
Fill for final time


----------



## warno

Couple of updated pics here

Forms for the refractory in the firebox









Here's my aquastat override switch and indicator lights. The override switch is to shut the fan off  when loading wood. You can also see some of the foam job on the inside of the shed





Here's the ceiling. The foam job didn't turn out nearly as nice as I hoped. Alot of differences in thickness a couple of missed spots, but I guess you get what you pay for. 





Rear shot of the boiler, plumbing and Electrical is all done. 





Main electrical box and aquastat.  The switch on the front of the box works with the float switch. If water level is good everything works as it should if water level is low it will shut down the fan and pump. And the switch allows me to override the float switch if need be. 





Inside the box is a bowl of spaghetti. I have a bigger box at work I plan to bring home to replace this one, since I'm already planning for more things in the future. But this one will run this winter. 









Just a couple of closer spots 

The fan assembly





Ground wires





Drain adaptor goes from 1" make to 1.5" make for my drain hose.


----------



## GENECOP

Pouring your own refractory? What mix are you using?


----------



## warno

http://www.woodlanddirect.com/Casta..._a_7c2640068&gclid=CO2l4qCZqsgCFQiNaQodhJkMoQ

I bought 2 of those and I also got some stainless steel needles off of eBay.  This is the part that makes me most nervous because if it doesn't go well then the refractory will all crack and break down.

Basically my process so far is:

Heat firebox with little space heater
Pour refractory
Shake out air bubbles with eletric hammer
Let cure for a few days with space heater running in firebox

I have never worked with refractory before so I'm hoping I do it right.


----------



## Jags

Any concerns with high temps inside the shed?  Overheating of electrical stuff??


----------



## warno

I'm hoping the shed won't get that hot. I'll be putting a ridge vent in the shed also so it shouldn't get horrible in there.


----------



## warno

Tonight I finished the chimney flashing and weather cap for the flashing.


----------



## lotawood

Hobbyheater had a post where he was re pouring a base for a Jetstream boiler.  He had a process for burning small fires to cure a large amount of fresh refractory, on a thread maybe a year ago. 

He said something about a soot ring if I recall correctly.  

Maybe if you read that it would help, in addition to what you planned.

Looks like a good project.


----------



## maple1

Your attention to detail is something else. Nothing like pride in your work!


----------



## warno

I put in my refractory tonight. That was pretty much a let down. I only had 100 pounds which seemed like alot, but it definitely was not. I'm going to have to build some hold plates and fill the remaining space with sand since I don't have the money to buy more refractory. I just hope what's in there holds up. I'll get some pics when I pull the forms off. 

So for anyone doing a poured refractory piece, do like the packaging says and plan ahead. You only have about 20 minutes of working time before this stuff starts setting.


----------



## warno

A little more progress today. I pulled the forms from the refractory, insulation around the boiler, I finished the feed door.

The refractory came out quite disappointing. I didn't get it shaken down good enough at all. I guess when it breaks down I'll dig it all out and fill the void with sand like I have to do on the front of the firebox.





Feed door ready to go on once the fire brick are in the box. I end up filling the open spaces the refractory didn't get into with sand, then I welded the cover plate on half way.





And the insulation is wrapped around the boiler. I used R30 glass mineral wool for this wrap. The left over pieces I stuffed up on top of the boiler for alittle thicker coverage up top.


----------



## TCaldwell

Great job and documentation, but the what scares me is the near boiler pex in the last picture. This has been a failure point often also when a overheat turns to a over pressure situation, becoming a real mess at the worst time. Being that its below the boiler could help but maybe others could chime in.


----------



## warno

Thanks for the compliment. 

Are concerned that the pex will melt off of the fitting? Also my boiler is an open system with a vent line, so that should eliminate the possibility of over pressurizing.


----------



## TCaldwell

Sorry, I think your covered also understanding that a non pressureized system should stay below 190degf for water quality reasons as well, carry on!


----------



## warno

After work today I finished up the front of my firebox. I plated in the front with stainless steel and filled the void with sand.

The firebox isn't bad to get into unless I'm wearing my welding hood, then it's a nightmare. Very tight fit. But the front is done. Now I need to put in my firebrick and fill it up for the first fire.

I pulled the TIG welder out of the garage and set it up outside. Less then ideal but it had to be done.


----------



## axeman628

That looks great. Can't wait to see it running!


----------



## warno

Yesterday I plumbed my vent line through the shed wall and redirected my drain line out towards the front of the shed.

Tonight I added my ridge vent to the shed and put my fire bricks in the box. All that's left is the duct work in the garage and the feed door on the firebox. I have a part time HVAC installer coming by tomorrow to help me get my duct work in. I'll also be putting the feed door on the fire box tomorrow morning. I hope the hinges hold up, the feed door is probably 80 pounds now after loading it up.

Some pictures

The bricks in the firebox are a combination of  ceramic and standard firebrick.










Here's where the vent line comes through. I built a little cover over it.





Here's a shot of the vent line inside the shed.






And the drain line reroute









Home made ridge vent it has 2" hole that goes down inside the shed.









If this 2" hole isn't enough I have a pilot hole drilled from the inside to add another 2" hole for more vent capacity.


----------



## Pat32rf

How do you fasten your firebrick in place? I am getting an older(2009) P&M delivered next week and it looks just like your design without the firebrick....  Maybe I can upgrade.


----------



## warno

I simply layed them in bed of sand and used a rubber mallet to settle them in tight.  I found if you wet the sand a little first it helps to pack it better. I used a small space heater to "bake" the moisture out. A small fire would do the same.


----------



## TCaldwell

Hope all is going well, do you have a provision for combustion air other than the ridge vent?


----------



## warno

That thought did cross my mind. If I find that is not getting enough air with the fan going I'll simply add another vent down low to pull in fresh air for combustion. 

All is going well though. I got my feed door mounted and all that's left is the duct work. My employer shut the plant down for the week of thanksgiving so I plan to fire it for the first time next week.


----------



## warno

Well I didn't beat  the first snow since we are getting snow here in Illinois this morning. 

But the duct work is done now. All that's left is the thermostat for the forced air in the garage, filing the water jacket and firing. Monday will be my first fire. I'll get some more pics up soon.


----------



## warno

Just another little update. Since the snow has stopped the temperature outside has dropped to about 20 with the wind blowing about 10 mph. The boiler with a simple little space heater in the firebox right now has the boiler shed holding steady at 60 inside and the snow on the shed roof hasn't melted off. Hopefully this remains the norm with the boiler running.


----------



## warno

This morning I fired the boiler for the first time. I will do a write up on the results tomorrow being today was simply to warm it up for the pretreatment. But I will say I was pretty happy with how quickly the water temp came up with a fairly small fire inside.


----------



## warno

Little story then a quick question to anyone still watching this thread. 

This morning I came out to a dead fire with charred wood in the fire box. I think I need more air flow to keep my boiler idling when there is no heat demand but I'm not sure how much.  Could anyone give any pointers to help out with this?


----------



## maple1

That might come down to trial & error.

My old boiler had a slot cut into the main loading door. Think it was up high, kind of behind the fire curtain inside. It wasn't very big, and they must have done some playing with slot sizes at the boiler factory to come up with how big it should be - it wasn't adjustable. I always wondered why it was there, then eventually just assumed it was to prevent the fire from snuffing out when the draft damper closed. If you had a natural draft setup with a draft damper, you could incorporate an adjustable stop for when the damper closed & play with that, but not sure the best approach for your setup. Forget now - does your fan have a shutter that closes when the fan closes? If so maybe adjust something so it doesn't close up tight?


----------



## Heat1285

shorten the differential on you aquastat in mild weather so the boiler fires more often.


----------



## TCaldwell

I don't remember what your boiler water jacket holds or if you have storage, and neither of us know the actual firing rate. Do you have a heat dump or zone that comes on when the boiler gets near a overheat situation. knowing the above would help with the aformentioned thoughts. With no protection i would try adjusting the differential on the johnson A419, with protection Maple's thought. You might be able to alarm a low flue temp to open the damper to say 10pct and close it when the flue temp reaches x deg, and be overiden when there is a call for heat.


----------



## warno

So I think I got the burning out thing figured out. I added in a ball valve that can draw air in the bottom and it seemed to keeps the coals got today. I lit the fire this morning at 6 and it was burned down to coals at 5 this afternoon. It was a load of pine lumber scraps.

To answer the questions I do not have a heat dump zone. I was going to use the garage for that if I ever needed to but so far right now it hasn't needed to happen. And my water jacket holds about 120 gallons. No storage this season.

So my initial thoughts are,  I'm liking it. I turned the garage up to 65 on the thermostat and it held just fine. It smokes alittle more then I would like while it's idleing, but that should change once the cold weather really sets in since the idle time will be alot less. With the first fire I was heating my pretreatment solution which I had to later drain then refill with fresh treated water. It took the first fire about 1 hour to heat the water to 150 degrees.  After draining and refilling and firing again I had to leave for a couple hours. When I came back home the boiler was sitting at 170 degrees and garage was toasty. It's still a learning curve right now but I think I'll get it down.

So here's some pics.

My fill adaptor let's me fill through the over head coils to help push the air out of the system.





One of my pump isolation valves came with a hose adaptor on it too this will help with draining and taking water samples.





I also made up a rain cap for the chimney. I need to make it alittle higher though so it's not on right now, but here's what it looks like.





First load of wood





And The first fire coming to life.





I had some serious condinsation issues in the heat exchanger until my water temp reached 130.









And what was left of the first fire






The second fire at night.





Water vapor coming from chimney while fan is running. It goes up about 5-10 feet then disappears.





And my early Christmas gift from the Father in law






So what's everyone think?


----------



## OH_Varmntr

Looking good man!  Sure is something to be real proud of!


----------



## jatoxico

+1 Anyone would be proud to have put that all together. Nice craftsmanship on the build.


----------



## jb6l6gc

Very nice been watching for a while. Boilers aren't my forte but looks like you've built quite the unit and built it like a tank too. Should last a long time


----------



## warno

Thanks for all the positive feedback everyone. I'll keep posting updates as I keep running it.


----------



## sequoia

warno said:


> So I think I got the burning out thing figured out. I added in a ball valve that can draw air in the bottom and it seemed to keeps the coals got today. I lit the fire this morning at 6 and it was burned down to coals at 5 this afternoon. It was a load of pine lumber scraps.
> 
> To answer the questions I do not have a heat dump zone. I was going to use the garage for that if I ever needed to but so far right now it hasn't needed to happen. And my water jacket holds about 120 gallons. No storage this season.
> 
> So my initial thoughts are,  I'm liking it. I turned the garage up to 65 on the thermostat and it held just fine. It smokes alittle more then I would like while it's idleing, but that should change once the cold weather really sets in since the idle time will be alot less. With the first fire I was heating my pretreatment solution which I had to later drain then refill with fresh treated water. It took the first fire about 1 hour to heat the water to 150 degrees.  After draining and refilling and firing again I had to leave for a couple hours. When I came back home the boiler was sitting at 170 degrees and garage was toasty. It's still a learning curve right now but I think I'll get it down.
> 
> So here's some pics.
> 
> My fill adaptor let's me fill through the over head coils to help push the air out of the system.
> 
> 
> View attachment 167870
> 
> 
> One of my pump isolation valves came with a hose adaptor on it too this will help with draining and taking water samples.
> 
> 
> View attachment 167871
> 
> 
> I also made up a rain cap for the chimney. I need to make it alittle higher though so it's not on right now, but here's what it looks like.
> 
> 
> View attachment 167872
> 
> 
> First load of wood
> 
> 
> View attachment 167873
> 
> 
> And The first fire coming to life.
> 
> 
> View attachment 167874
> 
> 
> I had some serious condinsation issues in the heat exchanger until my water temp reached 130.
> 
> 
> View attachment 167875
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 167881
> 
> 
> And what was left of the first fire
> 
> 
> View attachment 167877
> 
> 
> 
> The second fire at night.
> 
> 
> View attachment 167878
> 
> 
> Water vapor coming from chimney while fan is running. It goes up about 5-10 feet then disappears.
> 
> 
> View attachment 167879
> 
> 
> And my early Christmas gift from the Father in law
> 
> 
> View attachment 167880
> 
> 
> 
> So what's everyone think?


I am throughly impressed!


----------



## warno

I came out this morning to another cold garage and 137 degree water temps. The added air kept the coals toasty all night but only near the very back of the burn chamber. Where my air induction is located it would just blow right under the coals and up the front then out, so basically right past everything. I'm going to put some obstructions in my ash pan to help distribute the fan air better, hopefully this will help getting it to burn through the night.


----------



## Jags

warno said:


> So what's everyone think?


I think this was/is a very impressive job - well done.


----------



## hondaracer2oo4

What is your differential set at? Also have you got a good hardwood coal bed established? Softwood leaves very little to no coal bed, if the stove idles for an extended period of time, long differential and or very small heat load, the softwood coals will burn up before the next call for heat leaving you with nothing to continue the process. Get a 3-4 inch bed if hardwood coals built up and tighten your differential to 10 degrees and you will be fine I think.


----------



## warno

I have only been burning pine lumber scrap so far. My only hardwood I have right now is hedge. I guess I could toss a few pieces of that in there and let it burn down. 

My differintial was set at 5 degrees, I turned it down to 4 degrees maybe I'll turn it down to 3. I have noticed the fire burns the "core" out of  the wood stack and leaves no coals.


----------



## hondaracer2oo4

That is your issue right there. Don't waste your time doing any more modifications to the stove. It will burn hardwood fine. I ran a 170 on 180 off in my old conventional which ran fine like that. Your differential is so tight now that I don't think tightening it anymore is going to help much. Your problem is that pinewood scrap crap. If I were you and I really wanted to burn that stuff I would put one split of the hedge at the bottom and the rest of the crAp wood around that. In my opinion the scrap wood is going to only frustrate you and cause you to babysit the stove.


----------



## warno

OK, next time I load I'll toss in some hedge pieces. I just checked it mid day today and since I pulled all the coals to the front this morning they seem to be still cooking. Problem is it's about 50 degrees outside so the garage isn't calling for much heat. I think tomorrow I will see if it will heat through the day with no fire then refire for the night run since temps are dipping into 30s for lows. I'll give it a shot tonight with the hedge pieces.

It sucks but it's kind of nice they shut the plant down at work this week. I can be home to figure this thing out before going back to work.


----------



## hondaracer2oo4

Your likely to have some moisture issues if you regularly try to heat off of just the residual heat mass since you only have 100 gallons if I remember correctly. The stove water will be cooled down pretty quickly, and you'll will get that stove sweating again before it clears through 140 degrees.


----------



## warno

When I checked it a little bit ago the water was still at 169 and I'm pretty sure it's been idleing all day. Maybe after I burn some harder wood tonight I'll be able to just toss in some pieces tomorrow morning and it will make through on that. You are right though I don't want it to start condensing again.


----------



## hondaracer2oo4

Yeah you will figure it out, just a little learning curve. I would suggest keeping the temps up though once you start burning. Since you are using a higher efficiency design then most conventional boilers you are going to be more susceptible to lower temps causing moisture. When I burned softwood it was always more of a pain than it was worth.


----------



## warno

I put a couple pieces of hedge in with the afternoon load in hopes to have some coals for over night. Well there was about a small shovel full of coals so,  for the over night load I racked up what coals I had and the few pieces of unburnt lumber scraps, then tossed in a couple small pieces of hedge and a few splits of hedge. Fingers crossed it makes it through the night. It's supposed to be another mild night in the 30s so not much heat load I'm guessing.


----------



## warno

Morning update

I came out to a warm garage and no blower going in the garage. Opened the back shed door to see boiler fan running and 169 water temps. I was alittle nervous to see the firebox but when I opened it up there was a small bed of coals glowing at me. Which meant that temps were actually coming up from about 166. I tossed in some more hedge splits and some lumber scrap to get it going. Hopfully I'll get a better bed of coals built up. 

Thanks for the advice guys, it seems to be working so far.


----------



## hondaracer2oo4

You will get it figured out pretty quick. Its mostly about getting a decent coal bed going, once that happens things will work pretty smooth. I found with my old stove that I would always place a piece off to the side away from being directly blown on by the blower which kept me a nice area of coals that if I let the stove run down to nothing I could rake it over and use that to light the next load. I also put a second Ranco aquastat which I used to break power to the blower motor and flapper on the boiler if my water temp dropped below 165. I ran my boiler 170 on 180 off. If the boiler dropped to 165 it meant I was out of wood, so the aquastat would kill the fan and flapper and leave me a nice big bed of coals instead of burning the coal bed up. It worked out really really well.


----------



## TCaldwell

Quick math to raise your boiler from 140deg to 180deg, 120gal x 8.43lbs x 40deg= 40,464btu/6050btu/lb of wood = 6.6 lbs wood. Possibly in moderate weather with low load, your wood does not have much of a chance of a consistent burn to generate a reliable coal bed, as inferred above. Softwood unless you can match your load [ throw a few pieces of lumber scrap in while you are under full load] won't give you a reliable coal bed, as above with what you currently have, hardwood would be much better. Hopefully cold weather will generate more frequent cycling reducing the problem. With moderate storage and weighed wood loads all your efforts will shine! Your craftsmanship is flawless.


----------



## hondaracer2oo4

Just a couple quick points. Your 6600 Btu is based upon 100 percent combustion efficiency of the stove. The boiler is probably around 50 perfect efficient. Also does anyone really weigh their wood?


----------



## brenndatomu

hondaracer2oo4 said:


> Also does anyone really weigh their wood?


Yes, there are some here that do...


----------



## warno

I did have that though about a second aquastat to cut power at a lower water temp. I may still do that. But my question with that is how do you bypass it to get things going again with a new load of wood?  

Thanks for the numbers on my BTUs. I don't know the math but I do know this things heats water extremely fast. Recovery time is pretty much minutes. 

We are having high 50s today so I dropped my differintial down to 3 degrees in hopes to keep it going. I worked in the garage for about 3 hours this morning and the blower in the garage only kicked on one time, and that was after I opened the drive in door.


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## TCaldwell

Honda, the wood btu value does not change, the boiler combustion and system effiency determine how much wood you will need at a given moisture content. Here are some examples from my records, start water temp=141.5, end temp=174.2, delta of 23.7deg with 100lbs wood= 3.05lbs/deg raised. My boiler 1906 gallons= 15896btu/deg raised, or 5211btu extracted out of the 6550 available= 86.1% effiency, for this particular burn.
 Yes i weigh my wood.


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## hondaracer2oo4

Yes I understand that the BTU's available in 1 pound of wood does not change based upon the efficiency of the particular unit. My point was that he stated that he would need 6.6 pounds of wood to raise the temp the desired amount which is not the case since the unit is probably 50% efficient at moving the available btus from the wood to the water which would mean that he would need twice that weight of wood to raise the water the desired amount.


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## notshubby

warno said:


> I did have that though about a second aquastat to cut power at a lower water temp. I may still do that. But my question with that is how do you bypass it to get things going again with a new load of wood?
> 
> Thanks for the numbers on my BTUs. I don't know the math but I do know this things heats water extremely fast. Recovery time is pretty much minutes.
> 
> We are having high 50s today so I dropped my differintial down to 3 degrees in hopes to keep it going. I worked in the garage for about 3 hours this morning and the blower in the garage only kicked on one time, and that was after I opened the drive in door.




on mine I added a low temp aquastat but I used it to cut off my circulator pump and heat exchanger fan. figuring if my temp got low in the boiler I didn't want it to keep sucking heat away from it. without it if the boiler fell behind on really cold days (below zero) the loop would just keep sucking it down and the air would come out of registers luke warm.

on a side note I started out with a forced combustion blower. had a hard time with keeping coals overnights on real cold nights. around year 7 or 8 my blower died and I cut it off and welded on a gravity closed door with a solenoid to pull it open and was much happier with it. not sure if it would work in your application with the long section of horizontal heat exchanger and the bends might not have enough natural draft. but my old boss signifigantly reduced his wood usage and burn times on his old aquatherm by adding a speed control to his fan. he was a cheapskate and used a dimmer switch. I would have used something like this. http://www.harborfreight.com/router-speed-control-43060.html .. hey for 20 bucks try it in a few different speeds and if it doesn't help your only out 20 bucks.

I used a homemade owb for about 15 years. but with my new house with virtually no land and right on the edge of town so this year I switched to a regular wood stove. with room to stack a months worth of wood easily on the enclosed front porch, about 1/2 a face cord in the back room 12 feet or so away. I loved my boiler but the going out in the snow 2 or 3 times a day to fill it I wont miss.


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## TCaldwell

My point is that even if you put 25lbs wood in the boiler, your hard pressed to find enough coals left for a relight. Relight time with 120 gallons can become a challenge, cold weather you could go through your load faster than thought=no coals or shoulder seasons idiling for prolonged times =no coals. The aquastat differential time changes might help, but keeping the combustion air inlet slightly open with 120 gallons could overheat. My long term thought would be to calculate what a 12 hr btu load would be and add storage.


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## warno

I do plan to add about 500 gallons of storage for next winter since I'll be heating the house and DHW as well.


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## hondaracer2oo4

Yes sometimes you will misjudge the amount needed untill the next fill on those cold days. My old boiler was 120 gallons though and my firebox was 20 cu ft, not sure how big your firebox is? The way that I had my low temp aquastat set up was I brought power into both the aquastat and a bathroom timer switch. Out of the aquastat and timer I ran the power to the blower motor and soleniod. If the aquastat cut the power to the blower and soleniod because the water temp dropped I would go and press 1 hour on the bathroom timer which would power the fan and soleniod for 1 hour. By the 1 hour mark the water temp will rise above the cut in on the low temp aquastat and it will continue th power after te bathroom timer kicks off.


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## warno

I was thinking it would take a timer of some sort to run the fan to bring it all back up to temp. I'll look into doing that. 

My usable firebox space is about 35 cu ft.


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## maple1

Holy crap. That's 1/4 cord.

Mine's like 3 cu.ft.


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## warno

My bad my math was way off. It's closer to 12 cu/ft. I don't know what numbers I hit to get  35. 

I used a 120 gallon tank for my fire box.  And after fire brick and refractory that's about what I have left.


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## warno

I don't know of its this warmer weather or my lack of experience but I killed the coal bed again and came home this afternoon to 140 degree temps. The wind picked up alot after I had left home and it got cooler I didn't have much wood in when I left and it burned everything completely gone by the time I got home. I started it back up and I'll be checking it again before bed tonight.


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## warno

I hate to admit it but right now I'm "that guy" since I've been trying to get this thing leaving me some coals I've been  burning my hedge pieces. The pic isn't real clear but this is what I've got this going on now. It's a pretty dense smoke coming from the chimney. I'm also wondering if I should put on another section of chimney to get the smoke up higher. What do you guys think? 






When I was burning the pine lumber pieces it was only little whisps of smoke. I know these types of boilers smoke but if I start mixing my pine lumber in with my hedge do you guys think it will help cut down on my smoking problem?


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## notshubby

nature of the beast when your firebox is surrounded by water. especially when your coming back on after an up to temp smoldering cycle. the pine might help bring the combustion chamber temp up a little faster shortening the "freight train" smoke. but mix to much in and it will shorten your burn time and make less coals.


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## TCaldwell

I second notshubby, do you have time to build your storage now, it will help alot with both your prior posts, hows your seasoned wood supply?


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## warno

Problem with my storage is where im putting it. I planned to put it under my house next year when I ran my lines up to the house. If I had room in the garage for it I wouldn't hesitate to put it in now. 

My seasoned wood supply is mediocre/semi seasoned, which I know is dumb on my part,  I figured I'd get this thing rolling on the lumber scraps then switch over to the cord wood as the winter progressed. I had a bunch of the lumber pieces left from work.


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## warno

This morning I came out to a warm garage and boiler fan running water temps at 165 with very little smoke out  the chimney. I was a little nervous to open the feed door and see what I had. Opening the box I found this





I tossed in a piece of pine 2x8, a piece of poplar, a piece a hedge, and another 2x8 then a couple small pieces of ash.


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## maple1

warno said:


> I hate to admit it but right now I'm "that guy" since I've been trying to get this thing leaving me some coals I've been  burning my hedge pieces. The pic isn't real clear but this is what I've got this going on now. It's a pretty dense smoke coming from the chimney. I'm also wondering if I should put on another section of chimney to get the smoke up higher. What do you guys think?
> 
> 
> View attachment 168141
> 
> 
> 
> When I was burning the pine lumber pieces it was only little whisps of smoke. I know these types of boilers smoke but if I start mixing my pine lumber in with my hedge do you guys think it will help cut down on my smoking problem?


 
Are you sure that is all smoke? Might be some steam in there?

This is kind of a catch-22 time of year for an OWB. Heat load isn't that high so if you try to put enough wood in to last the hours you want for a re-load, it will smolder a lot & condense creosote in the firebox, then when you load up again it will burn that creosote off & make smoke. Might have to just load for the heat you want until you come back, and plan on having to relight a new fire when you do come back.

Most all of us indoor boiler guys make a new fire every day - so not having hot coals to load on is a given. For me anyway.


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## hondaracer2oo4

Don't get discouraged its a learning thing. Like I said before, the softwood and scrap is a pain to burn, leaves no coals, burns fast and appears like you have enough wood to last 12 hours but it never is. Something that will also help you to keep a coal bed is to cover a piece of your grates so that the blower can't directly blow on th coals and kill your coal bed.


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## hondaracer2oo4

Your also likely to get smoke with a conventional and more so with yours because of the extra passes through the  water jacket. Not sure what kind of moisture your wood is at but I found that 25-35 percent was the best balance. With a right side up fire f the wood is to dry it will burn up quick, the greener wood slows that process down. The downside to that is more smoke. A good coal bed will do the most to minimize your smoke. But at the end of the day it is a conventional boiler and it is going to smoke.


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## Fred61

Bad time of the year to make any determination how to operate your boiler and pine, spruce and poplar are not the correct fuels to be doing it with. Also barometric pressures and moisture laden air have an effect on your burn. I have no doubt that once winter comes these variables will diminish and you'll have it figured out. If there's any dry wood left by then LOL.


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## warno

I went to pick up more wood this morning from dad's pile and when I got back the smoke had almost stopped all together and there was a good amount of coals and wood left. I'm guessing I'm getting a bunch of smoke from the semi wet wood I'm trying to burn. I'm trying to do the tarp thing this year to keep the rain and snow off the wood. Next year im hoping to get into a wood shed  situation. I bumped up the thermostat in the garage alittle to see if the added heat demand will keep my fire from burning out. I'll check on it again around "getting home from work" time and see what I have in the box. 

I also cleaned my heat exchanger out and I got about a hand full of black crumbles from that. Is that an ok amount for burning about a weeks time?


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## hoverwheel

Point of curiosity... Or maybe points...

With a run of the mill gas or oil boiler, when the tstat calls for heat, fuel and air flow, burn and produce the heat, then circulated through the radiators.

With a storage system, you run a hot fire until it burns out, or until the storage is up to temperature. When the tstat calls for heat, the radiators draw on the heat in the storage.

With a wood fired boiler without storage, that tstat is doing what? Controlling airflow to the firebox? That raises the temp on the coolant in the system, flows/pumped to the radiators.

Is this pretty close? Long term, down the line, I'm interested in setting up a wood fired, storage based system. Trying to get a handle on how it all works.

Maybe by then, Mr Warno will be manufacturing these things for sale!


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## maple1

Tstat starts system pump(s).

Aquastat maintains boiler temp.


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## warno

I guess that hedge I was trying to burn was the cause of alot of my troubles with the smoke. I loaded up the box with some of the maple I got from dad's this morning, he said it's been in his pile for over 2 years after standing dead for years, and it seems to be burning with minimal smoke.

Here's a shot from my kitchen window at idle. The light on the pole is alittle bright but you can see the small trail of what I'm guessing is water vapor because It goes up about 10 feet then disappears.


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## hondaracer2oo4

The drier th wood you are burning the less likely you are going to get smoke, but I bet you burned more than you expected to burn last night since the dry wood burns easily.


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## warno

I burned about 3 splits of the maple and a little of my lumber pieces. This morning I still had some coals left. I put in what I thought would get through the day. I'm not going to mess with it until this afternoon about the time I would be getting home from work.


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## warno

I did do alittle timing and temp reading yesterday when I was doing my clean out. It took less than 3 minutes of fan running time on the boiler to recover 4 degrees of water temp. I'm also reading alittle over 350 degrees on the flue adaptor in the back of the boiler with fan running.


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## hondaracer2oo4

Sounds like you are starting to figure things out. I would be really happy with 350 flue temps. My g200 can hit 375 under a good oak coal bed with a load of oak splits ontop. That cuts back to about 325 when the damper starts cutting back the air as it approaches high set point.


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## warno

I did a little modification to my natural air intake. This is the only air in the fire box without the fan running. I used to just have a short pipe welded to the outside of the 2" cap. Now I'm hoping this will let the air get a little further forward in the fire box to keep the front coals going too.


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## Heat1285

boiler looks great....my advice is BURN GOOD SEASONED HARDWOOD stop burning that scrap junk...like honda said you will NEVER get a cool coal bed established. Now dont get my wrong, i burn all my mill scraps up in my OWB....but i throw in only a few pieces a day when i load on top for that quick blast of heat (adn to get rid of it). HEDGE is the BEST stuff out there to burn and has the highest BTU count of any hardwood.....get as much of that stuff as you can....start stocking up on good hardwood wherever you can get, get it cut , split and stored for 9-12 months and you will never have these problems that you are speaking off. If you dont have any seasoned hardwood for this year try and find some ash to cut down....that stuff has a low moisture content naturally as is the best wood to burn "green." I burn mostly all oak, maple, hickory, ash, cherry and walnut. Having that 2-4 bed of nice coals is extremely important. my advice is to make your round or splits about 4-6 short the length of the firebox, this will leave a few inches on each side and ensure that you can stack a nice even load in there...hope this helps!


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## warno

I have been mixing my lumber pieces in with  my maple to get rid of the lumber. That seems to be doing pretty good for me. I had a nice bed of coals going but, after work yesterday when I checked it there were still some pieces left to burn in the box so I shut the door and went inside. I thought it would make it till I loaded before bed, I was wrong. It was about a 12 hour burn though. The water temp was fine at 165 but I had to relight the fire. It made it through the night just fine after that. 

This morning I had some coals going again. This afternoon should be better yet. I'll just have to get used to tossing in a split or small round after work, no problem. 

Thanks for all the advice everyone. I'm going to start getting wood stock piled soon. I banked on burning though what I had and some of dad's stock since he had enough for him in his house already. I have been suppling about 80-90% of his wood supply for about 10 years now so he said it would be fine to take some back. Pretty much all he  burns is oak sheet metal skids I get from work. It's all dried oak 2 x 3, 2 x 4, and 1 x 4 boards. He loves to burn this stuff in his furnace.


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## warno

I have a question about improving efficiency. I can either try to build an effective venturi to put in front of where my fan blows in, to pull some of the smoke down and blow it up through the coal bed after mixing with fresh air. Or I can build a way to get air up over top of the fire as well as the fan blowing up under the fire. This way I would direct the air flow over the fire to blow the smoke back down into the fire.

I know I can't do anything to prevent the smoking while the boiler is idling but I would like to improve what I can while the fire is getting fresh air from the fan. Would either of my ideas work?


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## brenndatomu

warno said:


> I have a question about improving efficiency. I can either try to build an effective venturi to put in front of where my fan blows in, to pull some of the smoke down and blow it up through the coal bed after mixing with fresh air. Or I can build a way to get air up over top of the fire as well as the fan blowing up under the fire. This way I would direct the air flow over the fire to blow the smoke back down into the fire.
> 
> I know I can't do anything to prevent the smoking while the boiler is idling but I would like to improve what I can while the fire is getting fresh air from the fan. Would either of my ideas work?


Either could work if designed properly. Keep in mind that you only need secondary air for the first few hours or so. Once the wood is to the coal stage the volatiles and smoke are pretty well gone and coals will burn hot and clean with just a little air from below. Secondary air just cools the firebox and water on the second half of the burn. I wouldn't make too many changes now if you are planning to add storage later, because once you do, you will be able to burn wide open for a few hours and then just shut the damper down once the boiler has a belly full of red hots


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## warno

I know it all depends on alot of things (insulation, age of house, heat demand, etc.) But how long, very ball park estimate, would 620 gallons of 180 degree water last in a day? 

I got a quote for a 250 gallon propane tank and the guy told me they have a couple of them. If they will fit in my crawl space I'll be getting 2 for a stoarage total of about 620 gallons (boiler and tanks).


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## Heat1285

dont inject secondary air unless it is warm air.....my heatmor injects secondary air but it is abour 180° air coming from the rear panel. it is good that ur are letting your fire burn all the way down....that dries the firebox out completely.....i also try and time it so i just have a nice coal bed to relight the next fire


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## airlina

warno said:


> I know it all depends on alot of things (insulation, age of house, heat demand, etc.) But how long, very ball park estimate, would 620 gallons of 180 degree water last in a day?
> 
> I got a quote for a 250 gallon propane tank and the guy told me they have a couple of them. If they will fit in my crawl space I'll be getting 2 for a stoarage total of about 620 gallons (boiler and tanks).


 I just added 500 gallons (repurposed propane tank) of storage to my Econoburn 100 this year. I live in Western NY and while we haven't had any winter yet, I am finding that one 5 hour fire every 24 hours heats my storage to 180 degrees and satisfies my heat load for the next 24 hours. Heat load is a 1700 sq. ft. log house with old style 180 deg baseboard emitters and DHW. I use the storage down to 130-140 degrees before refiring. Hasn't been real cold yet , so I am sure this will change , but real happy with the storage addition so far, adds a lot in the way of convience and cleaner burn. Bruce


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## maple1

warno said:


> I know it all depends on alot of things (insulation, age of house, heat demand, etc.) But how long, very ball park estimate, would 620 gallons of 180 degree water last in a day?
> 
> I got a quote for a 250 gallon propane tank and the guy told me they have a couple of them. If they will fit in my crawl space I'll be getting 2 for a stoarage total of about 620 gallons (boiler and tanks).


 
It will also depend on what you have for emitters or distribution. e.g., in floor heat only needs 100-120° water, but baseboard rads or a hot air HX might not be much good below 140°.

Right now I am burning once a day with 660 gallons of tanks. When I go to bed storage is in the 175 range, and I am lighting a fire again late or mid the next afternoon and storage is down to 130-140 (top) at that point. I have slant fin baseboard, but think I have a bit more than a design would call for. Also not heating the whole house when coasting, the upstairs zones don't call for heat until 6pm or so, they set back early morning a couple degrees.


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## warno

I will be using a HX in the plenum of our existing natural gas furnace. I can build what ever size HX I want since I'll be using our items from work. So basically I can build a big HX with alot of heat available so the fan only runs a short period of time on it. At least in my mind that theory sounds right. Am I wrong thinking that? 

I do have a question with the HX in plenum set up.  When the boiler gets down on temps and the natural gas kicks in, does the heat blowing through cool a HX loose alot of BTUs  on its way through the house? Also how low can the water temps get before a water to air HX doesn't work well?


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## lotawood

A lot of advantages with storage.  It would help with your smoke at idle.   You can be more flexible with your reloads.

I like when running off of storage, there is not a fire going.  So there is less to worry about while you are away.   Many boilers burn unattended and you have in the back of your mind I hope everything is going alright.

I don't have experience with forced air, but I would guess a bigger HX would at least allow for running lower temperatures.


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## warno

I do have those fears of "is everything ok" while I'm at work or its at night. 

I have been pretty successful keeping the coals going and if I kill the coal bed I know what it takes to get it built back up. I've been burning maple lately and its working really well for me. I'm really liking the heat in the garage now. The wife even came out there while I was working and her and my boy hung out for awhile so that's nice.


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## warno

another morning update.

I reloaded with a bunch of maple splits last night at about 830. I had to relight the fire at that time. This morning, outside temperature is 29 and foggy, at 630 I went out and all but a small piece had burned to nothing, water temps down to 156 from 170. So I reloaded again and let it take off. I have turned my differintial up to 7 degrees and I'm wondering if now would be a good time to turn it up 10 degrees. So my fan isn't running so often. What do you guys think? If I turn my differintial up some more will I get a longer burn time? 

On a side note, I also turn down the thermostat in the garage 10 degrees so the heat load isn't so much. I was running at 70 now it's at 60.

Any input would be great everyone, thank you.


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## maple1

There are a lot of variables from setup to setup, and there's only one way to tweak through that - give it a shot & see what happens.


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## Fred61

Too many variables with wood heat to find that magic recipe for hitting the perfect coal bed. Not like tuning an oil gun or propane burner. The wood, size of splits, heat load, barometric pressure, wind, how the wood lays in the firebox, etc. etc. all have an effect on your fire. You can tweak the controls and maybe see some improvement but the fire will be different each time. It will be better when winter comes but you'll be chasing the target 'till you get storage then nearly all these concerns will be non issues. On my unit, I don't care what the status of the firebox is when I'm ready for my next fire except a few pieces of charcoal cold or hot, left to facilitate igniting the next fire.


----------



## warno

Is it wrong for me to be excited about next year already. You guys make me wish I plumbed the house first then the garage. I hope the storage is what I'm lacking.


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## GENECOP

Warno, I have been following along a little, I don't really think it matters which was plumbed first, when the system is dialed in anyway...I am 3 years in and still tweaking, adding storage etc...be patient, you built a nice unit, but I think you thought that would be enough, building a solid unit is just part one, the real fun is getting it to Purrr.


----------



## warno

I'm liking it more now then when I first started it up. I honestly never thought that the weather conditions, wood condition, or so many other factors come into play.

I was always basing my fire conditions off of what I've seen my dad do with his wood furnace. But I  learned real quick a boiler is not a wood furnace. My dad always made it look so easy to build and sustain a fire. Of course he's been with the same stove for over 30 years now. So I guess it will get better with time.


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## hondaracer2oo4

Any reason your running your garage so warm when no one is out there? I would run it at 40 or 45 when no one out there and bump it up when you are out there. Your hx size will not change your btus that your space needs. Smaller hx=less btus per min of run time, bigger hx=more btus per min of run time. Your space needs the same btus to reach a certain temp regardless of hx size.

The boiler and furnace are different animals.


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## GENECOP

Our garage has radiant so we keep the shop at 60 all winter, radiant is not good for heat swings. If you have hydronic forced hot air, yea lower it , put less demand on the system, bump it up 15 minutes before you go out there.


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## warno

I was running the garage so warm because that's my only heat load on the boiler.  it was the only way I could make the boiler do work in this warmer weather. I'll be turning it down when the weather stays cold.  Other wise the boiler would idle for hours on end. I know I'm burning more wood this way but it's better then just make creosote like crazy.


Another successful night last night. Only down fall is I burnt up my flash light. I had a little LED magnetic light I would stick on the inside edge of the door while loading at night. I shut the door last night and went in the house. I came out this morning to a very sad looking melted clump. But other then toasting my light I had a good pile of coals to get the new load of wood going again.

I did my weekly HX clean out this morning and I got this much black crumbly stuff. Is this alot for a weeks burning? Tape measure for size reference.






And just because I didn't post a pic of my tools during building. I have a ash rake I built from stainless steel pipe and a piece of scrap. And my HX brush I got from a local pizza place, they used it to clean their ovens. It's got an aluminum scrapper on one side and a brass brush on the other side.


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## GENECOP

Hard to tell, have you cleaned or inspected the chimney yet? Is the black stuff shinny..also, my entire system runs pretty clean, three times per season I brush the chimney...Twice a week a I throw in a couple of scoops of the Rutland Creosote, Chimney cleaner...It's cheap enough on Amazon , after three full winters burning, the HX and chimney sweep clean, and look great...


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## warno

There is the same crumbly stuff in the chimney but I haven't cleaned that out yet. It's not too terrible in the chimney though. All of that in the picture is from the heat exchanger.


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## warno

Tonight I went out to load the night run in and  I went in the garage to adjust my thermostat and noticed my pump is started to make some noise.  It started out as a kind of whine but then went into what sounds almost like it's pulling air through but I can't see any air in the line when I shine a light through the pex lines. The coils don't sound like there's any cavitation going on.  I turned the speed up to speed 2 and it quit making the noise. Any thoughts what it could be? Should I be worried?


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## warno

I came home from work today to see that some water had ran out of my boiler vent at some point today. I'm not sure why all the sudden I would have water coming out. It hasn't had any water come out the vent since I started burning. Is there any reason that I'm getting water from the vent line all the sudden?


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## lotawood

I can't remember, do you have an open system?

Is the water out the boiler vent like a OWB that has open to atmosphere fill tube?

Might be your boiler boiled over.  Got too hot for an open system.


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## warno

Mine is an open system yes. I have a stand pipe for my vent line very similar to a garn vent line. Here you can see the pics of my vent system.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/im-building-a-homemade-boiler.145689/page-2#post-1964868

The stand pipe goes up inside the top access to the boiler then it's open to drop down and run out.

The only 2 things I can think that may be causing this, 1) is there was a creosote fire inside the fire box that got super hot and the aquastat shutting down the fan wasn't enough to kill the blaze causing a slight boil over.  Or 2) there is finally enough condinsation building on my top cover that it's dripping down into the pipe and running out.


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## notshubby

warno said:


> Mine is an open system yes. I have a stand pipe for my vent line very similar to a garn vent line. Here you can see the pics of my vent system.
> https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/im-building-a-homemade-boiler.145689/page-2#post-1964868
> 
> The stand pipe goes up inside the top access to the boiler then it's open to drop down and run out.
> 
> The only 2 things I can think that may be causing this, 1) is there was a creosote fire inside the fire box that got super hot and the aquastat shutting down the fan wasn't enough to kill the blaze causing a slight boil over.  Or 2) there is finally enough condinsation building on my top cover that it's dripping down into the pipe and running out.



 what was your aquastat set at high limit cutoff? 100 gallons isn't a lot. remember when the air shuts off its not instant heat off like gas or fuel oil burner. the wood fire is roaring when air shuts off. mine had about 100 gal 12 cubic foot firebox and setting aquastat at 170 in warmish weather could easily push it to boiling.  more storage means a bigger buffer against temp climb when air is snuffed out.


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## GENECOP

I have a totally different system but Notshubby said something that might be relevant. I had a couple of boilovers early on. When my heat demands where met my damper would close and the Circulator pump from the unit would shut off, even though at this stage the fire was damped down, the heat in the firebox was building up..I rewired the circulator pump the continue running even after the damper closed....problem solved.. Similar to any heating element that has a delay, even after the source of heat is cut off, the remaining heat in the system must be dumped...


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## warno

My circulater pump runs constant and my aquastat is set to shut off at 170. I have watched when the aquastat shuts down and the temp still runs up but it stops at 172, every time I have  observed it anyway. I guess I'll have to keep an eye on it when I get a  chance to.


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## notshubby

warno said:


> My circulater pump runs constant and my aquastat is set to shut off at 170. I have watched when the aquastat shuts down and the temp still runs up but it stops at 172, every time I have  observed it anyway. I guess I'll have to keep an eye on it when I get a  chance to.



wow you must have a seriously small fire in there if your only going 2 degrees above the setpoint with only 100 gal h2o.


----------



## notshubby

warno said:


> I came home from work today to see that some water had ran out of my boiler vent at some point today. I'm not sure why all the sudden I would have water coming out. It hasn't had any water come out the vent since I started burning. Is there any reason that I'm getting water from the vent line all the sudden?




put your drain into a 5 gal bucket so you have an idea if your dumping out a few drops or a lot of hot water and its evaporating.


----------



## Heat1285

put your SP at 175-180, it will kill all that creosote....the hotter you run the cleaner your enitre boiler will stay. I run bw 180-190


----------



## warno

I have a 120 gallon tank for my firebox then it's lined with fire brick and refractory so I probably have about 12-13 cu/ft of useable burn area. 

The amount of water on my concrete outside the boiler shed wasn't a lot when I looked at it but it's hard to tell how much may have evaporated before I got off work. My vent line is hard plumbed into the boiler shed wall. I could try to disconnect it and run it into a bucket to check that theory. 

I'll try to turn my aquastat up alittle. To help with the creosote. I'm going to let the temp run down alittle and build a hot fire in there to try to burn it this weekend.


----------



## warno

Well, as of this afternoon after work I have decided I'm only going to burn this thing at night until temps get and stay cold outside. I'll just shut the whole system down before I leave for work and then refire at night. 

It's 50 outside right now and with my garage forced air running constantly, because I have the drive in door open,  it took almost 10 minutes for the boiler to drop 1 degree. With that math it takes almost 45 minutes inbetween boiler fan running at 4 degree differintial. I'm not going to idle all day, that's just rediculous. With temps in the high 40s and the door shut all day the garage will hold some heat until that night. Hopefully it gets cold soon.


----------



## hoverwheel

While I really *am* rooting for you, is prefer a mild winter


----------



## GENECOP

Yup, these systems are not designed for warm weather, the shoulder season really does require storage to run properly. While these systems are simple, they are complicated at the same time, at least until they are dialed in..


----------



## warno

This morning before work I ran the temp up in the boiler to 180 degrees and shut everything down. I do  think I found out where my water running out the vent was from. When I ran  it up to 180 a big air bubble found its way to the access opening and bubbled up into the opening and splashed a bunch of water out the vent. The water level is almost level with the top of the vent stand pipe. With the top being flat on my boiler it traps air in the corners. When the water expands it pushes the air bubbles to the access opening. So that was good to find out. 

But I'm alittle concerned when I shut my pump down one of my heat exchangers in the garage made a horrible bang noise. I'm not sure what that could have been but I plugged my pump back in and then unplugged it to make sure that's where the noise came from, and it did it again. 

I left for work at 530 this morning and got home at about 3 this afternoon. From 180 degrees this morning it dropped to 172 while I was away. No pump running, no fans running, I thought that was ok.


----------



## GENECOP

Not sure if applicable here but after I designed and built my system I had to go back and add Spirovents and emitters, I kept getting air in the system. During the first year I was always doing something, letting in air was an early issue.


----------



## warno

I have thought of adding in an air separator. Mainly because I don't want to keep driving air through my pump. 

This warmer weather is going to get me a chance to build my new fire grate. I will be forcing air through the grate to warm it up then it will exit out the top inside the firebox just before my flue exit, pushing the flue gases back down into the fire box for hopefully a reburn.


----------



## Heat1285

whenever you raise the temp setting son the boiler you will get a bit of water that comes out of the overflow tube as water expands when it is heated. Again, this is why i keep a tight differential settings most of the year. set at 175-180 your stove will bubble a bit out the first time gettting up to that temp, but from there on it should stay at the same level as long as you keep her full of good hardwood and dont let the temps drop on you


----------



## maple1

I am thinking an expansion chamber type of thing on top of or above (but connected to) the air vent would help. An open expansion tank, if you will. The rise & fall of water would be confined to the tank/chamber, and the boiler would be constantly immersed with no air spaces in the boiler itself - which should also help some in preventing corrosion. The higher the expansion tank, the better.


----------



## Fred61

BUUUUUUUUURP
Skuze me!


----------



## warno

That was kind of the idea behind my access opening being almost 10 inches above my boiler top. I was hoping the water would expand up into that, pushing all the air out the vent tube. Which it does, but since I didn't pitch my top toward the opening, like I thought about doing,  the air gets traped where it can until the expansion pushes it to the opening.


----------



## Fred61

Trapped air is something to be expected when first filling a boiler. Even one with a low capacity such as yours. I would wait a while before making any changes if it isn't continuing to blow out.


----------



## warno

I fired it back up after work today, hopefully for good this time. Nights are supposed to be in the 30s and days in the high 40s. A few warmer days next week with cold nights.  So fingers crossed I won't be shutting it down again.


----------



## Heat1285

my heatmor has a bladder system for the expansion and contraction of the water......it works really really well...something you might want to look into


----------



## warno

Since I have had it at 180 the last few times I fired it to keep the water warm it hasn't spilled any more out. I'll keep an eye on it if it continues to burp out the vent line I'll be looking into something for sure. 

I am a little concerned about the loud bang noise I heard when I turned off my pump at shut down. I was asking our maintenance guy at work about it and he described, what lead me to believe, this loud noise was water hammer in the system. I'm wondering if I cut my pex line at the highest point and install an expansion chamber, like used in house plumbing, if that would help with the loud bang noise. Can anyone give me any insight on this?


----------



## maple1

It does sound like water hammer.

Does that zone also have a zone valve? If the zone valve is installed backwards it will close with the flow rather than against it which can cause hammer. Might also be bigger potential for hammer with some valves vs. others.

Is there any copper piping in the circuit? I had a banging start here once on one of my zones, turned out to be a hanger had loosened over the year & the piping would bang in the hanger when a valve closed. I think it would need to be a long section of piping for that to happen though.

If everything is solid, and doesn't have any movement potential, a water hammer arrestor like you mention might do the trick.

What do you have for a circ pump pumping that zone? Sometimes if a zone is being over pumped, that could maybe cause something also - larger water flow coming to a sudden stop. Since I swapped my 15-58 3 speed for an Alpha, things are very quiet & gentle here.


----------



## warno

All my lines are 1" pex and The pump runs 24/7 so no zone valves, it was when I shut the pump down manually that I heard the noise. My pump is over sized for this system. It's a Bell and Gossett NRF-36 3 speed. But I got a really good deal on it so I couldn't pass it up. I think I will try to install a water hammer arrestor and see if that helps.


----------



## Fred61

If you still have air in the system which I suspect caused your burp, you already have, in effect, a water hammer arrestor. Does your circ have a check valve?


----------



## warno

No check valve on my pump. It seems the my heat exchangers are causing cavitation in my system. My water comes from the boiler with no air then on the return side it has air in it. I can hear one of the HX gurgling with pump running.


----------



## brenndatomu

warno said:


> No check valve on my pump. It seems the my heat exchangers are causing cavitation in my system. My water comes from the boiler with no air then on the return side it has air in it. I can hear one of the HX gurgling with pump running.


Pump is on the return side of the HE? If there is more restriction on the suction side of the pump as compared to the pressure  side then there will be cavitation at the restriction, which in this case sounds like it is the HE. If you can slow down the pump (?) that would work...or throttle the discharge side down a little.


----------



## warno

Pump is running the slowest setting right now.  I could close my HX isolation valve slightly to see if that helps. The thing I find weird is the problem seems to come and go. I had air in the return lines when I got home from work. As I was working in the garage for a little bit the air was gone, then by the time I went inside the air was back.


----------



## maple1

That's a pretty big pump. Really big to me, but my perspective might be off. Its pumping a lot even on 1. Have you figured out the head its seeing? Have you measured temps in & out of the hx?


----------



## warno

I tried measuring the temps in and out but the infrared gun I had wasn't working right and I haven't found another one to test with yet. 

I haven't figured the exact head number but both my HX combined are about 8 ft and I have about 90 feet of 1" pex line total. There is one 45 degree 1" black iron elbow on the boiler.


----------



## brenndatomu

warno said:


> Pump is running the slowest setting right now. I could close my HX isolation valve slightly to see if that helps


You need to throttle on the discharge side of the pump. If you throttle the HX isolation valve and it is still on the suction side of the pump all you are doing is moving the restriction (cavitation point)
Are you sure that ALL the air is out of the system from startup? I know when we take our 600K BTU boiler down for maintenance at work, it can take a number of days of intermittent bleeding at various points to get all the air back out

EDIT: The more I think about this the more I think you are just gonna chase your tail trying to balance things out with this oversized pump


----------



## warno

Ok I have a isolation valve on that side of the pump as well. I will try closing it slightly to see if that helps the cavitation. 

On this subject, is it possible for a system to start creating air bubbles simply from turbulence in the lines? My heat exchangers have what we, my work,  calls a "h" leg header design, I'm wondering if that type of fitting is causing so much turbulence  that it's causing this to happen.


----------



## brenndatomu

warno said:


> On this subject, is it possible for a system to start creating air bubbles simply from turbulence in the lines?


Yeah, especially if the pump is pulling a "negative pressure" on the HX, turbulent spots are prone to "boil" under a neg pressure.
I was at a pump service class last year and they had a glass front pump. It was CRAZY being able to actually see what all was going on in there under various different "improper install" conditions!


----------



## warno

Well I guess I'll be choking back my post pump valve then.  I planned on moving this pump to the house system next year and replacing it with a more appropriate pump. I Honestly didn't think it would be giving me fits like this.


----------



## maple1

I think I would get a smaller pump. A Grundfoss 15-58 3 speed is pretty robust & common, and not that expensive.


----------



## warno

I choked my post pump valve down quite a bit. It seems to have helped for now but I'm alittle concerned at how far shut I have it.


----------



## Fred61

It's difficult to control throttling with that type of valve. A regular globe valve works so much better. You're allowing more flow than you think you are.
On the "water hammer" noise --- I'm not qualified to determine but perhaps some of the "smart" guys here could tell us whether this pump could lower the pressure enough upstream to cause the water to boil when the temperature is at 180 at atmospheric pressure.


----------



## brenndatomu

warno said:


> I'm alittle concerned at how far shut I have it.


Whys that? Looks OK to me.
You'd be surprised how much water still flows past a 1/2 closed ball valve like that one.
Cutting back on the discharge side doesn't hurt anything on a centrifugal pump like that one, only if it is _totally_ cut off for extended periods (more than a few minutes) would it be an issue (water would eventually heat up...could melt the impeller (plastic) or burn the seal up)


----------



## warno

The valve just seems really close to closed to me being is about half way. I'm glad that I shouldn't have to worry about it like this. If this pump gets me through the season like this I'll be getting a smaller pump when I build next year's  project.


----------



## warno

I'll be ordering a grundfoss15-58 tomorrow. I checked the submittal sheets on both pumps and they are almost identical in mounting size. So that will be helpful, I should just be able to unbolt the pump I have now and install the new one with no modification.


----------



## warno

I just got done fixing, hopefully, my first big "well that was stupid" moment. I just got done with my weekly clean out of the heat exchanger. And needed to load it up for the day. I decided, without thinking anything bad would happen, to burn a bunch of the small pieces of pallet scraps I had piled up.  Not thinking anything about it, I loaded up the firebox with a bunch of these pieces and switched the fan back on. It smoked a bunch at first but I thought it would clean up once these pieces got going. I mean it's small pieces of pallet it should burn up fast, was my thought. Well the smoke never cleaned up the whole time the fan ran. Then again on the second fan cycle more thick smoke pouring from chimney pipe. So much so that my wife said "that's not good, you should do something about that before some calls the cops". 

So I go out with shovel in hand to unload what I had just stuffed in the fire box. I pull my ash dump container over and start shoveling out the fire box and dumping the flaming wood pieces in the dump bin. Naturally it starts burning out of control so I run it around to the side of the house with the hose and put the fire out. Go back to the firebox to unload more. Well every time I dig more out the hotter it starts burning. Not thinking about the water temps until I hear a big bubble hit my over flow pipe and start dumping water out. So I shut the fire box door to kill the blaze and check my water temps. I'm at 191, so I go in the garage and crank the thermostat up to 90. Real quick I opened the firebox door to stir the remaining pieces around so they will burn then I shut everything up. 

Lesson learned, don't pile the firebox full of scrap pallet pieces.  

I guess I'll be cleaning the HX again tomorrow, I'm sure.


----------



## TCaldwell

I think most of us here would admit to a or several moments like that. Actually aside from all the trouble it was a good lesson learned,
burn on man!


----------



## GENECOP

O the memories, I thought I was the only one running around like an idiot causing chaos....don't know what it is about those pallet blocks, now I only throw in 4-5 at a time and usually just to get started...LOL


----------



## GENECOP

Btw, once I had a nieghbor passing by, he looked at my chimney, and asked if he should call the fire dept...I Smiled, said no thanks, and counted the minutes just praying the mess would level out..it did, and I never did that again.


----------



## warno

It was pretty bad today. I should have known it wasn't going to get better when the fan shut down and it was still smoking really bad. Or The brownish black smoke pouring from the chimney could have been an indicator. Usually it only smokes a few minutes after a load up then it really clears out. Not the case here. I'm still smelling the camp fire smell in my nose now.


----------



## OH_Varmntr

Yep, those moments will happen.  Twice now I have had remnants of dead birds that get into my firebox get stuck in my draft door and keep it from closing.

It's not a good feeling when you look at your digital water temp readout and it's 211 degrees.  Come to find out, 211 is the most the display will read.  It was much hotter than that.

So hot that the circulator cavitated and would not prime because it would flash the water on the suction side of the circulator.

I hate birds.


----------



## warno

This was the closest I have been to the "run away" situation as far as fire getting too hot. I always second guess myself leaving for work or going to bed "did I shut the door on the boiler?". I'm sure I will come home or get up one day after its happened.


----------



## OH_Varmntr

I've left home with those,thoughts as well.  It becomes so routine during the winter months that I'm oftentimes not even paying attention when loading in the mornings.  It'd be easy to do.


----------



## brenndatomu

OH_Varmntr said:


> I've left home with those,thoughts as well. It becomes so routine during the winter months that I'm oftentimes not even paying attention when loading in the mornings. It'd be easy to do.


Yah, and it is "double your pleasure double your fun" when your burner is in the house...little harder to walk away with the door open though I suppose. Still easy to second guess if you turned the air control down or not though. Thats when you feel a little better knowin everything is installed properly and "to code", it _should_ take a "DUH!" moment with no catastrophes. 

This is kinda like when your are driving and thinking about stuff, all of a sudden you think "did I stop at that last intersection?!"
Or "was that last light green or red?!"


----------



## warno

I've started to wonder if my chimney cap needs some renovation. It seems the sometimes my cap causes the smoke to drive back down instead of getting out of the way. It basically looks like a upside down  pie pan. I wondering if just a flat plate would be better. Or maybe it needs more height off the chimney opening. Its about 6" off the top of the chimney. 

   Could anyone help me out here?

Here's some pictures of what I have.


----------



## hondaracer2oo4

Mostly depends on the weather. When you get that inversion the smoke just wants to leave the chimney and hug the ground.


----------



## warno

I'll try making a flat plate cap to see if that helps any. Thanks.


----------



## maple1

I can't see anything much wrong looking about that cap. Lots of airspace under it, and most factory caps are more restrcitive looking than that. I think.


----------



## Fred61

Cold smoke (low stack temp) is more likely to fall but the problem is usually caused by the weather. Inversions are unusual here but common in many places due to the geography but this year we have had more than our share of the phenomenon.


----------



## warno

Another chimney question, after the abundance of rain we got today there was a little stream of water running out from inside the outter wall of the chimney. How could this be happening? Anyway to seal it up so it's not a problem anymore? I noticed on the last rain we had as well. 

Here's some pictures


----------



## Fred61

That shouldn't be happening. How many sections do you have? Is there a vent between the walls that is exposed to the weather on the top section under your cap?


----------



## warno

I have 2 pieces 3 feet long. Is there any seal of any kind on these sections or is it just a crimp fit that seals it? Should there be a piece that goes over the last piece in the chimney?  Or am I missing something?


----------



## maple1

My sections lock to each other. Sit one on top of the other, rotate a little bit & it's there. I think most are like that - the bands are to help keep it there. My factory cap also fastens the same way - so the top edge of the top pipe is protected from the weather. Not sure how yours is up there?


----------



## warno

My cap has a band that tightens around the sides the top is as it is out of the box. Maybe I'll make up something to cover that very top and see if that helps.


----------



## warno

I plumbed in my new grundfoss 15-58  and my water hammer arrestor yesterday. The pump seems to be working better then the other. It took alittle bit longer to pull prime then I would have liked but it was running good after that. The water hammer arrestor I assume works but haven't needed to shut down my pump yet to test it. We'll see if this fixes the problem of the cavitation.


----------



## warno

I've been kicking around the idea of a new blower fan for my boiler.  I have 2 in mind but I'm not sure how much CFM I need to run. The 2 I'm looking at are either 165 CFM or 250 CFM. What I'm running now, im guessing, is around 75 CFM. Is there any calculations that can be done to give me a rough number on a blower fan CFM I could use?


----------



## TCaldwell

It's a difficult call, those cfm ratings are based on data that won't really correlate to your conditions. Unless you know how many cfm you are actually currently inducing through your boiler vs. rated motor cfm, you won't know with any certainty. The best you could assume would be if the new motor is rated for more than the current one at the same rpm then you probably have more cfm. That's why I'd suggest a fractional 3 ph and a vfd, then you could tune your boiler, experimenting with different wood types/ fan speeds.


----------



## warno

I'm looking into a new fan with a variable speed now.

But I now I'm wondering if I should be concerned about the sounds I'm hearing while my boiler fan is running. It sounds like the water is literally boiling off the heat exchanger and firebox inside the water jacket. There's a float switch that shuts everything down if the water gets to low. So I know that everything is submerged in the water. I'm finding it hard to believe that its actually hot enough to be boiling. 

If you listen to this video you can hear a sizzling sound. Don't mind my struggle opening the door I'm right handed trying to use my left hand on the latch.



Also with that same fire in the video I'm getting a fair amount blue smoke from the chimney with nothing but coals burning in the firebox. Could this be from a dirty chimney? I need to get it cleaned but haven't had the time with the holidays.

So I'm new questions are

What is that sizzling sound?

Could a dirty chimney Cause smoke with a hot burn?


----------



## maple1

I couldn't pick out the sizzling sound you mentioned.

But some boilers will 'kettle' in certain conditions. I think it's the way water flows internally in the boiler, or more like doesn't flow in certain spots or cavities or 'dead flow' areas inside. Like eddies in a stream. I don't think I'd describe it as a sizzle, sounds sorta just like you'd imagine boiling would sound inside. Maybe reduced flow from the new pump is now highlighting these spots?

I forget - do you have a bypass loop on the boiler? If not, adding one might help. My old wood/oil unit did, it had another circ in it that would come on at a certain temp (forget the temp now). I think I was told it was there to prevent boiler shock, but it would make more flow through the boiler and maybe stop a kettling condition. If that's what's happening.


----------



## brenndatomu

warno said:


> Could a dirty chimney Cause smoke with a hot burn?


Yes, but, the smoke is usually black, not blue...in my experience. Blue smoke sound like typical OWB incomplete combustion


----------



## TCaldwell

The blue smoke can happen when the batch dies down and combustion temp decreases, same as what happens when you first start a fire, will smoke till combustion temp is high enough to burn off volatiles, sometimes reducing overall airflow will help at the time.


----------



## warno

maple1 said:


> I couldn't pick out the sizzling sound you mentioned.
> 
> But some boilers will 'kettle' in certain conditions. I think it's the way water flows internally in the boiler, or more like doesn't flow in certain spots or cavities or 'dead flow' areas inside. Like eddies in a stream. I don't think I'd describe it as a sizzle, sounds sorta just like you'd imagine boiling would sound inside. Maybe reduced flow from the new pump is now highlighting these spots?
> 
> I forget - do you have a bypass loop on the boiler? If not, adding one might help. My old wood/oil unit did, it had another circ in it that would come on at a certain temp (forget the temp now). I think I was told it was there to prevent boiler shock, but it would make more flow through the boiler and maybe stop a kettling condition. If that's what's happening.



I do remember this sound being much less with the other pump running. As far as a bypass goes, I don't have one.  I have been thinking about building a "system optimizer" like pro fab uses on theit systems. It should stir up the boiler water pretty well.

Thanks for the info on the smoke guys. I'll play around with my air flow alittle more to see if I get it alittle better.


----------



## warno

I have been thinking about using my existing thermomix valve and building one of these http://www.ecomfort.com/Pro-Fab-Ind...70&var1=ecomfortusa&var2=shopzilla&var3=42339

What I'm alittle confused about though is if I put a bigger pump or 2 pumps on the "line out" port, would that over power the pump feeding the optimizer manifold? Or should I just stick with my current setup?


----------



## warno

Another lesson learned today. I accidentally got a few green splits mixed in with my load I picked up yesterday. When I went to load this morning I came out to no fire and 129 temps down from 180. So I relight the fire and go back inside. After an hour straight of fan running I figured I'd go out to check what's taking so long. Water temp only made it to 145 in this time. So,  I open the door to a bridged load of wood not dropping down and 2 pieces spewing sap out of the end. So I stirred things up and tossed in a few more pieces on top and went back inside. After 15  minutes the fan quit running and the stack starts smoking like crazy. I'm assuming because the sappy pieces in there still doing their thing.

So I guess a moisture meter will be in my tool box in the near future.


----------



## warno

I thought I'd post a pic of my chimney After about 6 weeks of burning. 





And after dragging the brush through it once





And with the second pass


----------



## GENECOP

Looks about right, I think as long as the coating remains powdery and easily sweeps, your good...


----------



## warno

It was all crumbly grey stuff. The rope on my brush knocked a bunch of it out when I dropped it in. Hopefully with added storage and batch burning next year this will improve.


----------



## warno

I figured I'd  post a not so exciting video of my smoke out put on a fresh start up.

So this is right after lighting the fire with the fan on.



And this is about 10 minutes after start up. Alot of heat up the stack.




I'm going to try to build a turbulator to put in my heat exchanger and I have a new fan on the way to hopefully get some air up over top of the fire as well as under it for possibly a cleaner burn.


----------



## Born2burn

Are you preheating any of your combustion air, if you try putting some secondary air in see if you can run the pipe through a hot area first before you discharge the air over the fire.  Should help a lot if you can get air temps up to 250 or 300F.  Might achieve a partial secondary burn when temps are up!


----------



## warno

The air is pulled from inside the boiler shed, it gets to about 100 degrees in the shed. Then the air is pushed up through the coal bed.  

I can run my above fire air through my fire grate to get warmed up before exiting above the fire. My fire grate is made of 1" stainless steel  pipe.


----------



## warno

So revisiting the sizzling sound, I was burning some 15-18% oak today in the boiler. The fire was really well established when I checked on it. And when I opened the door is was met with a roaring fire and all the creosote around the door frame was either bubbling up or in a liquid state. I took my ash rake and scraped the top side of the fire box and all the creosote on the top was liquid. 

So I'm wondering if my sizzling sound is my creosote boiling off the walls of the firebox?


----------



## GENECOP

What is causing the creosote?. Bubbling up in a liquid state around the door frame...sounds like a strange condition to start with...In three years of burning I have encountered liquid creosote maybe twice...maybe caused by my damper closing , idling to long etc...On a full out burn, I don't think creosote should be developing....


----------



## warno

Since I'm only heating my garage this season I'm getting LONG idle times. Especially since this winter had been more like early spring from the get go. So I have been building alot of creosote.  When I say it's in liquid form it was like thick wet paint under crusted over bubbles, it's doesn't run down like water but it hangs there pretty good. Around the door frame I mean on the inside of the feed door, I have about 4" of steel before the actual firebox opening. The creosote builds in that area and on the top of the firebox while at idle. When it's burning full on its not making hardly any smoke but then it goes into a long idle period.


----------



## warno

Here's some pictures of my door frame. The 2 sides and top. 

This is the hinge side of the door frame, I scraped the crusty stuff off and this is the goo under it. 





This is the top of frame, these are the bubbles I was referring to. 





And the latch side of the frame, more bubbles and goo.


----------



## hondaracer2oo4

This is a conventional own with a cold water jacket around the firebox. The creosote is perfectly normal for this style boiler. I assuME you have a hot spot in your boiler and that's what you hear bubbling. Maybe try to increase your pump flow in the boiler to get rid of that hot spot. Hot spots are bad for the metal and can cause it to break down quickly leading to a leaky boiler.


----------



## warno

Ok I'll try that. Thanks.


----------



## maple1

Are your return temps always above 140?


----------



## Fred61

The dry crusty stuff is creosote that has started to dry out and burn. It is spaced far enough from the cold walls to get hot enough. I suspect your fire is not hot enough for the area of water jacket that is exposed to the fire, The large area is keeping the fire cold. Is there any way that you can insulate the fire from the jacket with refractory to reduce the number of square feet of surface that is exposed to the fire. I think if you could accomplish that you will see a totally different boiler in the way it burns.
At one time I had a stove that I wrapped with several feet of 3/4 inch tubing for heating water. It drastically changed the way that it burned and did exactly what you are seeing on your unit. I removed the tubing and opted for a "Hilcoil" within the firebox and even with that I could see a difference in the way it burned.


----------



## warno

maple1 said:


> Are your return temps always above 140?



Always.  my delta is only about 14 degrees and the set point is at 180. And on a cold start in have a thermomix valve plumbed in the system. 



Fred61 said:


> The dry crusty stuff is creosote that has started to dry out and burn. It is spaced far enough from the cold walls to get hot enough. I suspect your fire is not hot enough for the area of water jacket that is exposed to the fire, The large area is keeping the fire cold. Is there any way that you can insulate the fire from the jacket with refractory to reduce the number of square feet of surface that is exposed to the fire. I think if you could accomplish that you will see a totally different boiler in the way it burns.
> At one time I had a stove that I wrapped with several feet of 3/4 inch tubing for heating water. It drastically changed the way that it burned and did exactly what you are seeing on your unit. I removed the tubing and opted for a "Hilcoil" within the firebox and even with that I could see a difference in the way it burned.



Only the upper half of my fire box is surrounded by water. The lower half is full of ceramic and fire brick. My water jacket doesn't surround the whole firebox like most conventional boilers. The creosote on the top of my firebox dries up and burn off just like the door frame does. That's why I was wondering if maybe that's what I'm hearing. 

I'm going to try turning my pump speed up and see if that helps things a bit. Maybe it is a hot spot in the water jacket.


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## maple1

Is the door frame water jacketed?

And I forget now - but where is your combustion air coming in at? Through the door?


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## warno

About 1 inch of the door frame has water around the top. The rest is surrounded by insulation on the outside of the boiler. This picture in build stage you can see where my water jacket meets the door frame.





And my air enters into the back, bottom, through the ash pan. It blows in the ash pan and comes up under the fire.  It's the longer pipe in this pic.


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## hondaracer2oo4

I don't remember, did you extend your supply or return piping into the boiler at all? Certainly could e trapping some real hot water between th top of the door area and the heat exchanger.


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## Fred61

Creosote deposits are a result of the non combusted gasses condensing on the surfaces which, to me means there is either an abundance of those materials emenating from the fire condensing or the walls and other surfaces which are too cold and the combination of moisture and smoke is condensing.
Speeding up the pump could be the wrong way to go.


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## warno

The return line extends into the jacket about 3/4 of the way to the front.

I tried the pump speed but had to turn it back down anyway because it started cavitation in my heat exchangers.

Hopefully next year with my other pump running to the house it will get this thing stirred up so it doesn't have any hot spots anymore.


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## hondaracer2oo4

Anyone that is concerned about the creosote you see in this boiler google outdoor wood boiler firebox and take a look at the pics. Absolutely normal for this style boiler. You don't have a second set of supply and return ports that you could put a pump on just for water jacket mixing do you?


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## warno

I know my creosote output is normal. When this thing idles is a creosote making machine. I was only bringing it up thinking it might have been the sizzling I was hearing, kind of like an oil fire. 

It's strange you bring up having another set of ports. I was thinking that same thing last night. I do have another set of ports, but my only available pump I have on hand is a Bell and Gossett NRF 36. I suppose I could run it on its lowest speed, that should seriously mix things up in the water jacket.


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## hondaracer2oo4

Yeah I would just slap it on and see if the noise goes away. That would help solve the mystery or not.


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## warno

I'll get another set of flanges as soon as possible and put it on there.


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## hondaracer2oo4

Heatmaster is requiring minimum flows inside their gasser series water jackets. For my 200 it is 16gpm. They had hot spot issues around the heat exchanger tubes I was told.


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## OH_Varmntr

Interesting about the hot spots.  I have noticed when at full output I can hear some boiling going on in my water jacket.  I just so happen to have another circulator lying around to plumb into my other ports.

My beast is a little different than yours though, warno.  110 gallons vs 400 gallons.  I wouldn't think it would take much for you to develop a hot spot.


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## duramaxman05

You need more heat load and colder outside temps to make the boiler work harder. Mine does the same
 Like here it has been between 40 and 70 degrees so lots of idle time. When we had a cold spell for a week the cresote decreased dramatically.


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## OH_Varmntr

Once it gets cold after a spell of mild weather, mine will fire really hard and look like a jet engine as it burns all the build up out of the stack.


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## warno

That's what mine has been doing for the last few days. It will burn the creosote like crazy making brownish black smoke then about the time it clears up back to idle we go. I hope batch burns next year will solve this problem.


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## OH_Varmntr

Ideally with batch burning, you only use enough wood to get your storage temps up right around when fire goes out and you won't have any smoldering, creosote mess left to deal with.

There are guys who figure out how many BTUs they need to get their water temps back up, weigh their wood, and only put enough in the firebox to get them there.  I want to be one of those guys lol


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## warno

That's my plan next year. I'll put my scale in the wood shed and probably use a basket of some kind to help gather and weigh with. Hopefully next winter will be more winter then spring and it will be easier to judge a load of wood.


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## Welder Rob

Good job, it's redundant to say it is very professional because you are a pro!
I'm also an ASME certified welder here in Canada and looking for wood heat for my new shop. I built Fisher wood stoves in the 70's in Powell River BC so came on to the hearth to quest about to see what's on the go! Nice to read and become more informed. And good to see your photos of the great job JJ you're doing.


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## warno

Thank you for the compliment. My boiler works great for not knowing anything about these things going into the project. I have been making adjustments and subtle changes throughout this season but all in all I'm pretty happy.  I must say though if you are planning to build a boiler yourself I would read up on a gasifier. I know the term has been beat to death time and time again on here but there's a reason for that. If I could do it over again I would definitely go the gasser route.


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