# Intensifier tech coming for old stoves



## Obadiah (Jun 30, 2015)

begreen said:


> Thanks for the update Woody. This is great news. I'm also glad to hear that you are working with Jason. That means we'll see this technology in the US too. Any thoughts on importing the Pyroclassic from NZ too?
> http://www.pyroclassic.co.nz/
> 
> As get more information can you start a new thread on this topic so that it is easier for folks to find? Maybe put NZ Firemaster in the title for easy searching.



Thankyou! I will start another post and see what Jason would like to talk about, it is Stove Season in NZ and Wildfire Season here,
 I guess WA touched off pretty good last weekend, our daughter was at a wedding in Wenatchee with her husband and our grandsons and just got out hours before the firestorm hit.  http://www.weather.com/safety/wildfires/news/fire-wenatchee-washington. It looks like we will be mobilized soon. Not sure how much I will be able to connect here, but thanks to smart phones and cell towers, who knows?

I will talk to Jason and see what we can do to bing the Pyroclassic line over, we are in the process of introducing several new cookstove lines as well as developing the Intensifire Technology in a way so it can be best utilized to help as many folks as possible.The testing and certification process is very expensive. I will need to see what we can do to make it happen ......What few folks know about Jason is he is very concerned about our environment and what he views as the exploitation of it, so he developed the Intensifire from that perspective. Anyone who has watched Whale Wars may have watched as the boat he was on was rammed by the Japanese Processing ship and almost killed! Pretty incredible story. I come from a different side of the story being surrounded with Loggers and Trappers and having Tom Oar of the History Channels Mountain-men Fame as a neighbor. Yet we both love Guns, Guts and Glory! So we get along great. Funny how things work out sometimes. 

Melow....we are doing exactly that, Helping folks keep their old Shraders, FIshers, and Timberlines and the hundreds of other stoves out there. Having participated it the Pilot Woodstove Changeout program we took hundreds of perfectly fine old woodstoves to the scape heap and I had nightmares for years afterwards ;(  What a waste! 

We welcome folks who have a interest in this technology and design to collaborate with us to produce cleaner burning solid fueled appliances. We also understand the desire for knowledge and a free INTERNET.We are concerned as we are seeing some folks trying to copy the Intensifire Technology. The design is patented and protected we have the legal means and resources to protect any infringements against it to the utmost extent of the law worldwide. Jason has been cautions about releasing too much info until he had someone he could trust to work with him in marketing it properly, with good reason. Anyone who has ever been to a HPBA show will know what I am talking about.

Here are some places where folks can follow what is going on via the internet.
Jason's is http://www.intensifire.co.nz , https://www.facebook.com/Intensifire , http://www.popularmechanics.com/hom...tove-decathlon-finalist-intensifire-16132832/ ,  , http://www.permies.com/t/27994/wood-burning-stoves/Increase-wood-stove-efficiency-Intensifire, https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/intensifire.120382/ 
Of course folks can always call me if they have questions and we'll do our best to fill in any blanks. 

. Our intentions are to offer this technology to folks on several different levels. 
1. Retrofitting existing old pre EPA stoves, that millions are still using so that they can burn them cleanly. Obadiah's was part of the EPA HPBA Stove Change Out Pilot Program in Libby MT. many years ago and did 70% of the stoves changed out. In the process of that experiment we put ourselves out of business locally and had to close our store. That opened up a new frontier, the Internet......Thanks to some smart daughters, here we are now  A new Para-dyne, who our age would have ever thunk!
2. Offering Barrel Stove Kits for folks who cant afford a new high dollar EPA stove but need to heat their structures.
3. Launching our own line of Modular Stoves that will be available in various levels of sophistication for folks with various income levels. We will have clean burning stoves for every budget.
4. Working together with existing manufactures to allow them to use our technology under license to bring their product line into EPA compliance.
5. Introduce new products that provide solutions to many issues that face the world, such as clean burning cookstoves for 3rd world countries.
6. Small scale Biomass Co-generation plants for remote Islands of the world to deal with the rubbish issues and stop the dumping of trash into the Oceans of the world and resolve the landfill problems of dealing with waste products.
7. We are also kicking around many other ideas such as Thermoelectric, Domestic Hot Water Systems, Clean Burning Rubber Burners and Electrical Production.
Thanks


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## begreen (Jun 30, 2015)

Moved to the classics forum as pre-EPA stoves is where the Intensifier technology will be employed. If a new EPA stove is developed please post that information in the main forum.


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## mellow (Jul 1, 2015)

I still say you put Jason's dad on the front of the box and label it "Santa Approved"


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## Kiwi Firemaster (Jul 6, 2015)

Hi all,

it has been great to have the prospect of seeing the IntensiFire get some traction thanks to Woody. I will try to respond where I can to queries here, or directly to me.

Begreen you might want to review that decision to move this thread, the bulk of my work has been on number 3. for Woody, something I hope will be quite special when we have it ready to go. But given the title I guess you are right  We can start another thread when the time is right.

Mellow that is actually a damn good idea, I will pass it on to Dad.


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## bholler (Jul 6, 2015)

I still have yet to hear any description of how this device actually works.


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## begreen (Jul 6, 2015)

My understanding is that it introduces downdraft burning into the firebox via a central tube that replaces the baffle. In testing this neared zero emissions, outperforming modern EPA stoves and pellet stoves. I saw it burning during the Wash. DC trials and there was not a whiff of smoke coming from the chimney in spite of being adapted to an old Treemont stove.


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## bholler (Jul 6, 2015)

begreen said:


> My understanding is that it introduces downdraft burning into the firebox via a central tube that replaces the baffle. In testing this neared zero emissions, outperforming modern EPA stoves and pellet stoves. I saw it burning during the Wash. DC trials and there was not a whiff of smoke coming from the chimney in spite of being adapted to an old Treemont stove.


Ok i thought it also used imbedded metals like a cat but i could be wrong


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## Kiwi Firemaster (Jul 6, 2015)

Hi bholler, and thank you for being interested enough to post.

First off I will quote a bit of advice that I have been given by a friend, who is a rather successful businessman qualified to give the advice. The context was that he had just viewed my prototype stove for burning wet wood, and having previously been a chimney sweep he understood the magnitude of the technology before him. His advice:

"Sell the results not the technology".

Now I have teamed up with Woody, as my representative on the ground there I will be relying on his guidance on how much to disseminate.

What would be helpful to me, at least in the short to medium term, is if people on this great forum steered away from that particular discussion. I guess it doesn't leave much to discuss right now 

Ultimately I want to make a living out of this and, in the four years I have been doing this in New Zealand, I have found that people who want to buy one have a whole lot of questions they ask, and "how does it work" isn't one of them. That question usually ends up with me trapped in a circular discussion that goes nowhere. You are a Chimney Sweep bholler so may very well end up at the intimate end of an IntensiFire, if so you will experience this. Btw as a professional in the business the professional approach for you would be for us to get a Non Disclosure Agreement in place before any serious discussion about the technology takes place. I say this because you guys really are professionals compared to what is done in New Zealand, and command a lot of respect! Here any person with a brush set can charge you to climb on your roof and run it down your flue.

As I type I see your response about catalysts. No there isn't any, just a better design


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## bholler (Jul 6, 2015)

Ok i though the last time it was brought up here that is what i was told but it could have been a different product.  And if i need a non disclosure agreement to know how it works how would i possibly sell it to a customer?  As a pro who would either be working on or selling them i need to know how they work.


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## bholler (Jul 6, 2015)

Btw i do not doubt that your product works well i saw it on popular mechanics and it obviously tested well.  I hope you get the technology put into a new stove and on the market here.  It definitely looks interesting and i am not trying to bad mouth your product.


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## begreen (Jul 6, 2015)

Your Cawley LeMay might be a good test bed. The best way to understand how well it works is to try it out.


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## bholler (Jul 6, 2015)

I am not screwing with my cawley my secondary combustion system works just fine.  But i have plenty of smoke dragons sitting in the scrap yard to try it on.


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## mellow (Jul 7, 2015)

I didn't even get to see it guys, could I have, probably, but I saw enough from looking at the live test results and the steam coming from the chimney to know it was working.

My only thought is how hot you have to get the fire going to get the device working, I hope that can be brought down to lower temps as most old people with smoke dragons love to idle them.


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## bholler (Jul 7, 2015)

What effect does it have on burn times?  And how much space in the firebox do you loose?


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## mellow (Jul 7, 2015)

You can see the size in that video, it is about the size of a 6" liner.


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## Obadiah (Jul 9, 2015)

Greetings from DC where this technology got its start here in the U.S. I'm here in our nations Capital meeting with our Montana Senators and Congressman on other business. I apologize for the delay in responding but it's been pretty hectic lately. Lots of irons in the fire at the moment.
As Jason has all ready mentioned, how the Intensifire works is Classified. As many have witnessed, it really does work; that's what sold me. Based on that I have chosen to make a substantial investment in bringing it to market in a form that will be in a plug and play format. I hope folks can respect our choice to limit certain information to those who have partnered with us to make it a reality and have entered into a NDA.  Stay tuned we are working hard to bring it to fruition. When we have a product ready to sell here, some of the folks here will be the first to get one to try out for some feedback. Of course nothing seems to happen as fast as it we'd hope in most cases. We still have Prototypes to test and modify, testing labs to deal with UL and EPA certification to aquire. Lots of costs involved with a project like this.


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## maple1 (Jul 9, 2015)

I think the issue some here might have is that they have seen lots of snake-oil type stuff come & go over the years - and the typical MO with those was fluffy PR promising the moon but light on details on the tech & how it worked.

So it's a fine line between protecting your interests, and not appearing to fall into that category of product. Most of the really good tech out there will still provide a bit of info on how they do it, usually with cut-away diagrams or whatever. Is there a patent in the works? Sounds like it might be a good idea.

Good luck - actually hope this will be successful for you.


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## bholler (Jul 9, 2015)

Yes that is my train of thought exactly maple1  I don't think this is one of those cases because of its success in the competition.   And i really do hope it all works out.  But for me it is very hard to accept a product without knowing anything about it.  Without knowing how it works i cant make any judgement on durability versatility or anything.


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## Obadiah (Jul 13, 2015)

> I think the issue some here might have is that they have seen lots of snake-oil type stuff come & go over the years - and the typical MO with those was fluffy PR promising the moon but light on details on the tech & how it worked.But for me it is very hard to accept a product without knowing anything about it. Without knowing how it works i cant make any judgement on durability versatility or anything.


Maple1, thanks for the comment, snake oil stoves, are not my cup of tea either, they don't sell well.......
I would not be on board with Jason if that was the case here. 

Let me ask you all a simple question......If someone has something of value, where do they put it, out in the open where someone can walk away with it, or do they do their best to protect it? 
Lets get real here folks, not everyone has the most self sacrificing intentions. Jason  has already demonstrated his invention for the world to witness. Intensifier won awards at the Woodstove Decathlon in DC back in 2013. Jason clearly demonstrated it works as Bholler admits. They invested a ton of money already to get to that point, by making the trip and entering the contest. Anyone priced a round trip ticket to DC from NZ, or stayed in a decent hotel in DC lately?  
However, no one has realized a penny here in the US or NZ in return for all this effort thus far. 

Originally Jason was very open about what he was doing and had the designs and info posted on his website. Unfortunately Jason felt the need to remove that info as we have some folks on another forum who are talking about copying the idea. "for prosperity sake of course".....
As I am now in the picture and the one Jason has chosen to make his dream a reality in North America, I take that responsibility seriously. I did not build one of the largest hearth dealerships in North America from one of the remotest places in the US, from not following through. Our specialized firefighting equipment speaks for itself in our ability to produce what we envision and "Extinguish Mediocrity" is our motto. Barring any unfortunate circumstances I believe this technology will see the light of day here in North America. It wont happen as soon as I would like, simply because of the hoops we still have left to jump through to do it properly. Unlike the old days in the 70s when we could dream it and build it and throw it out on the market, we live in a new world. If I remember correctly..... pre EPA there were something like 900 stove manufactures in North America. Most were mom and pop enterprises. In the 80s post EPA that number dropped to less than 100. Today how many stove manufactures are left, anyone venture to take a guess? The latest round of emission standards will cut that number drastically again. Anyone who thinks introducing a new stove into North America is easy has no idea what they are talking about. Just staying ahead of the new regulations in business and making a profit these days is challenging enough.

The Intensifier product is sold already in New Zealand and gaining traction as retrofits. Unfortunately my partner in this venture, Jason Stewart, is so far away he is already living in tomorrow as he is literary on the other-side of the world in a totally different time zone, not to mention he is in a different hemisphere, it is winter there and summer here. He is busy selling and installing Intensifiers and I am busy getting ready to fight wildfires, as we are facing one of the worst fire seasons since 1910. Being able to work together on perfecting the designs presents certain challenges, but Jason never ceases to amaze me. He is one of the one of the hardest working people I know. My vision for the North American market is bigger than just retrofits and we have a complete stove line planned as I have already outlined. Logistics on making this happen is challenging.
It is far easier to be on the other side of the fence and criticize what were trying to do, verses actually trying to make it happen. We wish we could make everyone happy and give everything away for free, but unfortunately, that is not the reality of the world we live in. So for now you'll just have to be happy with my "fluffy PR promising you the moon" but understand that we are going light on the details of how this baby works until we actually have all the details worked out and have something to actually demonstrate and market. We have the patent in place and the international legal team to defend it if necessary. Next comes the fun part as we begin the process of building the actual stoves and tweak them to figure out the, "_knowing how it works i cant make any judgement on durability versatility or anything question_" that bholler states. Join the club my friend, I'm invested in this project and I can't answer that question either. It is simply the reality of where we are at the moment. Hopefully folks can cut us some slack and understand the challenges we face to answer those questions in a honest truthful manner. Anyone who knows me, knows I am not going to blow smoke up your rear end to make us look like were something were not.

Those who are so inclined, can say a prayer for Jason and I as we need encouragement and resources to stay the course here and hopefully make a difference in the world of Pyromania.


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## bholler (Jul 13, 2015)

Like i said I am interested in it and really hope it works out and we get to see these stoves on the market here.  But don't push your product until you can tell us how it works I understand completely the need to keep it under wraps till your protection is in place I have industrial design and engineering degrees and have worked on many products being brought to market in the past.    But i believe it would be more prudent to wait till you are protected and then introduce the product when you can explain it.   But that is just my opinion you can do what ever you want but i know many chimney pros are very skeptical of products that make lots of claims but no explanation of how it works and that could earn you a bad rep before you even get to market.  Again i really do hope we see these here soon.


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## Fastdonzi (Jul 14, 2015)

Ditto, I Hope it's aHuge Success... And if Really Kicks Azz I will have one.. I'm Glad he has such a Great supporter on this side of the Globe..


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## BrotherBart (Jul 14, 2015)

I really liked seeing the technology in D.C. but for the life of me I can't imagine how it is going to overcome just the space in the firebox that it displaces and/or makes unusable for the fuel load.


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## 3650 (Dec 7, 2015)

Any news?


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## Kiwi Firemaster (Jan 8, 2016)

Hi everyone, 

well after visiting with Woody for a couple of months I have a better handle on the difference between the USA and New Zealand markets. One thing that has amazed me in both visits to the USA is how big it is, both economically and geographically. With Woody's experience, and explanations, it is easier to see how a retrofit device sits in your market. The answer is not very well, it comes with a lot of risks for the merchant or installer, and a lot of work relative to a fair return for the effort to make the sale. One difficult customer can cause a lot of headaches. 

No doubt this journey will yet take a few turns yet, but we are always interested in talking with those interested in taking a place in it. 

I will consider each request for a unit on a case by case basis, they can,and have been, ordered through my website. I must say that Woody isn't keen on me giving the technology out, but I have find a balance between protecting the technology and helping those that need one. Know that in most instances it takes design work on my behalf to adapt it to your stove, and that you will likely have to get some engineering work done locally for that adaption. 

Please be patient, one thing I have learnt is that a new technology takes time to become known and gain acceptance. It will happen in time. I have to say that attitudes like that from bholler are not helpful and I have learnt to spend minimal time on those that want to know how it works before they will buy. Mainly because they never do, their own technical ability causing them to second guess me at every step. I have also learnt that the bulk of my customers don't want to know, or are incapable of knowing, how it works. What they do want to know is that it DOES work. A technical explanation is meaningless in this scenario, what they need is independent validation. Well if you look in my website you will find that, a letter of endorsement from a US Government Laboratory. I don't mean to insult you bholler, just pointing out how it is. I have been doing this for five winters in New Zealand now so have a feel for my customers. 

Heck New Zealand doesn't even have a government laboratory, we sold that off in some crazy economic reforms in the mid 80's.

What I will point out is that the IntensiFire was selected as a finalist in the decathlon on the back of an independent laboratory test. In that test the efficiency was lifted from 52% to 75%. I have since made it better and beat 82% stoves in the Decathlon. The independent test was done by Spectrum Laboratories in Auckland and the testing is done in a calorific room, so a lot more accurate and reliable than most other testing that uses the stack loss method. There is no doubt the IntensiFire works, between that test and the decathlon result I don't feel the need to justify its performance. If someone wants to waste wood by continuing to send good energy up their stack instead of into their room then good luck with that. 

Brother Bart: The independent test in the calorific room was conducted using the NZS 4012 & 4013 test method, this also measures output. The fuel load is calculated, and was correspondingly reduced because of the IntensiFire device. Despite a reduction in fuel mass the output increased from 4.8Kw to 6.5Kw, an increase of 35%. The IntensiFire burned hotter for longer with less wood, and delivered a lot more of that heat into the room. There is a further surprise for anyone that installs an IntensiFire  

Burning wet wood is a major bonus that unfortunately doesn't get discussed much. One customer back here in New Zealand told me I should call it "the Incinerator" because he burnt all the green garden waste in it. 

Mellow: Yes a fire needs to burn hot to burn cleanly if not using a cat. But there are solutions to achieve a longer burn time that will come out once I have the budget to put it into production. But as the independent tests show, it will burn longer than a non EPA stove. 

Happy new year!

Jason


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## bholler (Jan 8, 2016)

Kiwi Firemaster said:


> Please be patient, one thing I have learnt is that a new technology takes time to become known and gain acceptance. It will happen in time. I have to say that attitudes like that from bholler are not helpful and I have learnt to spend minimal time on those that want to know how it works before they will buy. Mainly because they never do, their own technical ability causing them to second guess me at every step. I have also learnt that the bulk of my customers don't want to know, or are incapable of knowing, how it works. What they do want to know is that it DOES work. A technical explanation is meaningless in this scenario, what they need is independent validation. Well if you look in my website you will find that, a letter of endorsement from a US Government Laboratory. I don't mean to insult you bholler, just pointing out how it is. I have been doing this for five winters in New Zealand now so have a feel for my customers.



I respect you and i can see from all of the test results there is promise in your design.  But as a professional i cannot in good conscience sell a product without understanding how it works.  And i have quite a few customers who could understand it and who would never buy one without knowing how it works.  We have 3 colleges in our area with many of our customers being professors in various sciences and engineering fields.  To say your customers could not understand it comes off as arrogant to me if they cant understand it i am not explaining it right.  You have been doing it for 5 years i have been working on stoves full time for 15 years now and grew up working with my father in the field summers ect.  He has been doing it 39 years now.  I have seen lots of miracle devices all of which claimed to test very well come and prove ineffective. Yours obviously has testing from very reputable labs so I am not trying to lump you in with them but without some explanation of the tech i am still skeptical.  But again I hope the best for you and your product.


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## Kiwi Firemaster (Jan 8, 2016)

Another response of a similar nature provse my point about endless messages and going around in circles. If you were truly a professional then you would have approached this in a professional manner, ie: via private correspondence and subject to a suitable non disclosure agreement. 

The instrumentation used by Brookhaven National Laboratory on the IntensiFire was reading zero carbon monoxide. In the words of Trevor Gionet at the time "that is perfect combustion". Possibly the first time that has ever been achieved, with any fuel and any combustion system. That was after only 3 years in the business, so all that experience and those qualifications you outline haven't really helped a lot have they? The system jumped coal, oil and natural gas for emissions in one definitive moment, or as one mentor stated "that is a step change in the renewables sector". The system is far more important than just woodstoves, so I am not going to be provoked by someone on the internet that thinks they know something about combustion. 

Sorry bholler, I do wish you well but I can't take you seriously.


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## bholler (Jan 8, 2016)

Kiwi Firemaster said:


> Sorry bholler, I do wish you well but I can't take you seriously.


And that attitude directed at a well respected professional in the field will earn you the reputation as being arrogant here in the states.  I responded to your comments about me if you want to have a private conversation about it you should not have referenced me in the public forum.  If you want to sell your product here you will need to learn to deal with American chimney professionals so far it does not seem like you have any clue how to do that.  



Kiwi Firemaster said:


> so all that experience and those qualifications you outline haven't really helped a lot have they?


What does that mean?  I am very respected in the field.   I am partner in a successful business and i am happy with it where it is i have no desire to grow it much bigger.  And by the way i hold 2 medical equipment patents for products i developed while i was in college as well.  So yes my experience and qualifications have helped me just fine.  I worked in the corporate design field for a while and decided it was not for me i prefer to work with my hands.

I would be happy to sign a nondisclosure agreement and hear more about your technology.


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## bholler (Jan 8, 2016)

And by the way if you actually have achieved perfect combustion which is regarded as impossible in the scientific community Why have you not publicized it?  Something like that would be worthy of a Nobel prize.   Seriously to prove something like that is possible would be a massive achievement.   And yes I know what perfect combustion is and it would take allot more than a reading of zero co to prove you achieved it.


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## begreen (Jan 9, 2016)

Nothing is perfect, perfection is an absolute. The Intensifier does work and very well at that. I saw a prototype installed in DC in an old Tremont. The stove was burning very cleanly, next to some of the industry's best including the Twin-Fire next to it. There's been a lot of lab testing on this device and the results are very good. I'm hoping it shows up here sometime soon and starts cleaning up some smoke dragons. The main issue is one needs a big stove because the unit eats up firebox space. Should work well on those big Bears, Schraders and Timberlines.


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## bholler (Jan 9, 2016)

begreen said:


> Nothing is perfect, perfection is an absolute. The Intensifier does work and very well at that. I saw a prototype installed in DC in an old Tremont. The stove was burning very cleanly, next to some of the industry's best including the Twin-Fire next to it. There's been a lot of lab testing on this device and the results are very good. I'm hoping it shows up here sometime soon and starts cleaning up some smoke dragons. The main issue is one needs a big stove because the unit eats up firebox space. Should work well on those big Bears, Schraders and Timberlines.


I did not see it. But again with all the info available about its performance i don't doubt it can work.  The only problem i have with it is the fact that any time i have asked how it works i am told i would not understand it.  And there is no reason i need to know how it works.  Then i am called out in one response then chastised for responded.  Then he acts superior to me because i chose to be a sweep.   I am sorry but Insulting and belittling the pros in the field you are trying to introduce a product in does not seem like a great strategy.

And i was not trying to say i was better than you because you only have 5 years in the field.  But you say you have 5 years in New Zealand and you know your customers.    I am saying i have allot more years hear where you are trying to bring your product.  And i know my customers.  If i cant explain to them how it works in a simple and easy to understand way i generally wont make the sale.  It can be as simple as like with tube stoves it introduces heated fresh air into the top of the firebox which burns up allot of what is left in the smoke.  Simple and straight forward.  And lets them know basically how it works.   Americans are skeptical and just telling them trust me it works will not get the best reaction from my experience


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## maple1 (Jan 9, 2016)

Kiwi Firemaster said:


> Another response of a similar nature provse my point about endless messages and going around in circles. If you were truly a professional then you would have approached this in a professional manner, ie: via private correspondence and subject to a suitable non disclosure agreement.
> 
> The instrumentation used by Brookhaven National Laboratory on the IntensiFire was reading zero carbon monoxide. In the words of Trevor Gionet at the time "that is perfect combustion". Possibly the first time that has ever been achieved, with any fuel and any combustion system. That was after only 3 years in the business, so all that experience and those qualifications you outline haven't really helped a lot have they? The system jumped coal, oil and natural gas for emissions in one definitive moment, or as one mentor stated "that is a step change in the renewables sector". The system is far more important than just woodstoves, so I am not going to be provoked by someone on the internet that thinks they know something about combustion.
> 
> Sorry bholler, I do wish you well but I can't take you seriously.


 
I think I would have to suggest that you develop a different approach to responding those who you might perceive to be exhibiting some skepticism to your claims - and not be so easily provoked by harmless questioning by prospective customers, clients, re-sellers, and what-have-yous. It is only natural to meet unexplained breakthroughs with questions. Or at least it should be. And it definitely is if a product is brought to an internet forum such as this - where learning through discussion is the front & centre aspect.

I also truly wish you well with this - if it can live up to what has been hyped so far, it obviously has great potential. But as far as provocative questioning goes, I suspect, as they say and some have sung about - you ain't seen nothing yet.


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## bholler (Jan 9, 2016)

bholler said:


> I did not see it. But again with all the info available about its performance i don't doubt it can work.  The only problem i have with it is the fact that any time i have asked how it works i am told i would not understand it.  And there is no reason i need to know how it works.  Then i am called out in one response then chastised for responded.  Then he acts superior to me because i chose to be a sweep.   I am sorry but Insulting and belittling the pros in the field you are trying to introduce a product in does not seem like a great strategy.
> 
> And i was not trying to say i was better than you because you only have 5 years in the field.  But you say you have 5 years in New Zealand and you know your customers.    I am saying i have allot more years hear where you are trying to bring your product.  And i know my customers.  If i cant explain to them how it works in a simple and easy to understand way i generally wont make the sale.  It can be as simple as like with tube stoves it introduces heated fresh air into the top of the firebox which burns up allot of what is left in the smoke.  Simple and straight forward.  And lets them know basically how it works.   Americans are skeptical and just telling them trust me it works will not get the best reaction from my experience



I Will let you know that your partner obediah had me happily waiting until you could release more info.  He treated me with respect and did not dismiss my question as pointless.  I think you should take a page out of his book when it comes to dealing with professionals.  We are going to ask questions and we are going to expect answers.  I can respect the answer of we cannot release that info at this time.  I cannot respect the answer of it works you dont need to know how.


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## jkoplo (Jan 10, 2016)

bholler said:


> I Will let you know that your partner obediah had me happily waiting until you could release more info.  He treated me with respect and did not dismiss my question as pointless.  I think you should take a page out of his book when it comes to dealing with professionals.  We are going to ask questions and we are going to expect answers.  I can respect the answer of we cannot release that info at this time.  I cannot respect the answer of it works you dont need to know how.



The details are in his patent if you want to read through legalese: http://www.google.com/patents/US20140196637?cl=en


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## bholler (Jan 10, 2016)

jkoplo said:


> The details are in his patent if you want to read through legalese: http://www.google.com/patents/US20140196637?cl=en


Thank you very much i was given it already by another member but i appreciate it.


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## mellow (Jan 11, 2016)

I was there at the decathlon when they were metering the stove and everyone came running over, they could not believe the results, they thought the meter was broken or batteries were dead, once they realized it was for real they were very impressed.

All of this from a stove that was about to be scrapped and it even had the wrong liner size since they didn't have 8" at the comp, I still can't get over that.

@bholler Jason is passionate about his invention, sometimes a bit too passionate and takes things personally, but he at the same time isn't trying to have someone rip off his hard work, I can understand that.

From the patent you can see it is a downdraft style device, yes it takes up room in the firebox, but with an old epa monster like that Treemont there was plenty of room all around the device to put smaller chunks of wood in all around it.

I would love to see this device sold at farm and home or big box stores so that older non-epa stoves could even burn clean, an easy install would facilitate the sales growth of the device.


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## mellow (Jan 11, 2016)

And to think this is the before shot of the Treemont that Jason had to work with, about to go to the scrap yard:


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## bholler (Jan 11, 2016)

mellow said:


> Jason is passionate about his invention, sometimes a bit too passionate and takes things personally, but he at the same time isn't trying to have someone rip off his hard work, I can understand that.


I understand that but he also needs to respect the professionals who are working in the field.  If he had just said i cant tell you at this time the way Obediah has i would not have taken offense but to basically tell me there is no way i could understand it is pretty insulting.  I don't doubt the product works but he needs to learn how to deal with inquisitive people of just let Obediah deal with the public.  Also to claim to have achieved perfect combustion is a little ridiculous.  If he had he would have won the decathlon without question.  And he did not win a single category.  What he did do is very impressive without a doubt especially considering the companies he was up against.  I would never have questioned the results till he claimed perfect combustion which is impossible.


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## mellow (Jan 11, 2016)

bholler said:


> Also to claim to have achieved perfect combustion is a little ridiculous.


He didn't claim it, he clearly quotes Trevor as saying that.


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## mellow (Jan 11, 2016)

He has the documentation to backup what he did say:  http://www.intensifire.co.nz/images/Jason/BNL-Letter-for-website-c.jpg


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## bholler (Jan 11, 2016)

mellow said:


> He didn't claim it, he clearly quotes Trevor as saying that.


fair enough but he did go on to say himself "Possibly the first time that has ever been achieved, with any fuel and any combustion system."
Which i took as him claiming it to be true


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## bholler (Jan 11, 2016)

mellow said:


> He has the documentation to backup what he did say: http://www.intensifire.co.nz/images/Jason/BNL-Letter-for-website-c.jpg


Yes i have read that already and what he says in that letter is very far from perfect combustion.  Again i am not bashing the product at all i was just curious and my questions where met be some very arrogant and condescending responses which offended me and will do the same to any other professional he treats that way.    I have never said anything negative about the product other than it did not achieve prefect combustion.


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## mellow (Jan 11, 2016)

I just did find this page, if you want pics this has it:  http://www.heatkit.com/research/2013/lopez decathlon13.htm


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## bholler (Jan 11, 2016)

mellow said:


> I just did find this page, if you want pics this has it


Thanks i hadnt seen that one yet but i did pay close attention to the competition some very cool stuff.


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## Kiwi Firemaster (Jan 11, 2016)

Mellow I didn't realise you witnessed that first test, I was so immersed in the moment myself. After discussing that test with a couple of the stove builder judges it was apparent it needed some tuning, so I spent the rest of the contest time doing that. Unfortunately the second formal test, with the second type of gas analyser, didn't go so well as I still didn't have it quite right.

What most people don't pick up is the disparity between the letter of endorsement from the US Government Laboratory, and the decathlon results.

Reason is Brookhaven did a third test that could not be included in the official result (for reasons of fairness). That test burned cleaner than another other competitor by a factor of multiples. In fact it burned cleaner than any other combustion technology on the planet. Cleaner than natural gas.


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## bholler (Jan 11, 2016)

Kiwi Firemaster said:


> Reason is I did a third test that could not be included in the official result (for reasons of fairness). That test burned cleaner than another other competitor by a factor of multiples. In fact it burned cleaner than any other combustion technology on the planet. Cleaner than natural gas.


Very cool i hope you get it to market and those results can be replicated in the real world.  If they can it would be a great innovation.


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## mellow (Jan 11, 2016)

Figuring out how to make this plug n play is one of Jason's greatest hurdles, so many different styles of non-epa stoves,  they are all big boxes but how they regulate the primary air is often very different.


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## Obadiah (Jan 11, 2016)

Hey guys, wishing ya all a very happy an prosperous New Year! 

Here is where I'm at with this project, Jason stayed at my place and used my lab and the local college to develop several combustion intensification systems. 
1. Jason modified a Woodmaster LT90 outdoor wood boiler with an elaborate combustion intensification system that we still have some tweaking to do.
Jason had to cut his trip short to perfect it, so I'll pick it up in Feb when it slows down a bit. 
2. Jason modified a Kitchen Queen wood cookstove with a combustion intensification process that still needs some tweaking. Not sure when I'll get that dialed in either, but Jason says were close.
3. Jason modified a wood burning zero clearance fireplace that got so hot you could see the top of the fireplace turn cherry red and the glass door shattered. This caused me grave concerns about how to sell these as retrofits as the UL on the stoves would be no longer valid for clearances to combustibles and thus a liability problem for me to offer my customers retrofit kits. My legal team and financial adviser see it as a land mine, so we'll steer clear of that market in North America where Obadiah's is concerned. 
4. Jason converted a EPA wood burning fireplace called the BIS Panorama over with an Intensifire system that works pretty darn well. Well enough to feel my investment so far is worth it. I am looking for a Niche market to fill with a product that works well and burns exceptionally. I think I found it and have something that I can develop once I experiment some more with tuning the system.

What I have learned.....
The best way to describe how it works is in the name itself. This SOB burns hotter than than a cup of McDonald's coffee down yer crotch......
The wetter the wood the hotter it burns. 
The Intensifire works well as described.
Once dialed in properly Jason could get it burning smoke free in less than 10 minutes. 
We could get an 8 hr burn in the Panorama, but I believe we can get 10 or 12.
The combustion tube does get in the way and is a problem, but can be built into the original design from the start not to interfere or obstruct how wood is loaded. 

Sorry Chimney Pro's, no retro's in the plan, just brand new well engineered stoves and boilers that contain the combustion intensification system that Jason calls the Intensifire. If Jason wants to offer them here in NA, as a kit that can be installed in older stoves, that is his business, I am not supporting the millions of questions that will arise. I'm 56, tired and ready to move out of sales into R&D under a contract basis. My plans are only to work with manufactures like Woodmaster Boilers to help them burn cleaner, under a agreement we will work out. I will also be looking at developing our own line of stoves further, using Jason's ideas. 

The drawbacks are it burns hot and fast and I am trying to figure out how to make it burn longer and tone it down a bit. It needs some tweaking for the North American market to be successful. We like long slow clean burning stoves that can burn at least 10-12 hrs. that are easily regulated and controlled. That is not how this currently burns, we all know the hotter something burns the cleaner it burns, so that is the secrete to how it works.  I see this combustion system as a potentially simple clean burning solution for many applications. The key is in the design and engineering of the end product that is to house the Intensifire technology, will be channeling air to a nozzle that will funnel hot gases into a combustion chamber that burns extremely hot and clean. Sorry I cant get into much more detail than that.

I took some pics and shot some videos I will upload when I get through the busy season, stay tuned.

As far as Jason personally, he is pretty easy going and humble. I am sorry if he comes across here as anything other than that. I never had an issue with him other than he does not understand the Liability factor here as you cant really sue in NZ. He does not also understand the way most Americans expect it to work right the first time, every-time.....if it doesn't the whole world will know about it. My tech support staff would have to be increased 10 fold, the margins won't work to make it profitable. I'm a businessman and I do this for profit, not to save the planet, or get sued. 

My regrets, bad timing, trying to pull something off like this during my busy season, during a very stressful personal issue, was not the wisest idea on my part. I was not able to as involved as I would have liked to and saw this project through better than I was able to.


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## bholler (Jan 11, 2016)

Thanks for the update sounds like allot of work still to be done but it also sounds promising.  I Agree that the liability of modifying ul listed appliances is probably not worth the risk.  And changing a bilders box fireplace is just scary.

And by the way jason and i talked in private messages and we cleared everything up.  And yes he really seems like a very genuine and nice guy.  We just got off on the wrong foot


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## Obadiah (Jan 12, 2016)

bholler said:


> Thanks for the update sounds like allot of work still to be done but it also sounds promising.  I Agree that the liability of modifying ul listed appliances is probably not worth the risk.  And changing a bilders box fireplace is just scary.
> 
> And by the way jason and i talked in private messages and we cleared everything up.  And yes he really seems like a very genuine and nice guy.  We just got off on the wrong foot


Cool Beans! We all need to pull together and I appreciate what you guys have done to help Jason on the first go around. You guys stepped up to the plate then, I know you guys at Hearth.com will do it again.

Those who want to be a part of this development on a more personal basis will need to sign a NDA. A simple step in working together on any project that will require the kind of $$$ investment this will to see through fruition. All of our partners in this project have gladly complied. Jason deserves to have his invention protected and I would ask that folks respect that. Jason is the kind of guy who does not require much and is not greedy, he's passion is more towards solving issues like wood combustion, than making money. However as his friend, he is not getting any younger and needs to have some sort of retirement income coming in. My goal is to help make that a reality.

We welcome working together with those who are establish Hearth Pros who are interested in the technolgy. If someone wants to step up to the plate, accept all the liability associated with selling and installing the Intensifire and provide the necessary tech support to the customers.  I would entertain franchising the technology in a way that factory trained chimney pros who carried a proper certs and experience as well a a few million in liability insurance. Jason and I have already discussed this in depth concerning dealer support for companies like Woodmaster and how we'd train those dealers to go back into the field and install Intensifire Combustion kits into certain older Woodmaster OWBs.
This gives the dealer another income stream updating existing Outdoor Wood Boilers (OWB)  This avoids a bunch of liability issues and provides some insulation for me. The same idea could be expanded for certain Hearth Pros who want to experiment with the Intensifire and develop conversion kits for particular stoves. That person could present that design for us to manufacture and market, they would receive a piece of the pie for every kit sold. If enough kits are sold for a particular stove, we could then look at UL testing in a lab a friend owns. Having a UL for the kit would then allow it to be sold to other sweeps only. I would only allow the Intensifire to be sold through certain companies like Olympia and Copperfield to chimney pros only. The purchase would have on the Invoice TO BE PROFFESIONALY INSTALLED ONLY TO LOCAL CODES.
I am looking at working together with this friend who owns one of the largest chimney supply companies as partner, if this proves feasible. This would provide the manufacturing, R&D support and distribution network throughout North America.
Right now I am looking for someone to help research and write grants to bear the some of the projected lab costs. I have invested in a Testo 323 and we have plans to build a particulate counter at the local college. Once I have the ability to test what is actually coming out of the stack, our team here can finish what was started.
Here are a few pics of the LT90 for you to get an idea of what the kit would look like.


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## begreen (Jan 12, 2016)

Thanks Jason for your efforts to clean up stoves. It would be interesting to see this technology replace the guts of the notorious VC downdraft stoves. If it is simpler and more reliable it could bring back these classic American beauties with new life.


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## Obadiah (Jan 13, 2016)

begreen said:


> Thanks Jason for your efforts to clean up stoves. It would be interesting to see this technology replace the guts of the notorious VC downdraft stoves. If it is simpler and more reliable it could bring back these classic American beauties with new life.


There ya go Begreen, there are thousands of those still in use, which means the market may support the cost of the UL listing. Wonderful idea, now we need someone to pick up the ball and run with it. My idea for retro kits was each stove would have a precision built kit that would fit perfectly every-time and be pre-tuned at the factory to work in that combustion chamber. That assures it works every-time so the tech support calls would be mitigated somewhat. 
We have been selling Hearth products a long time now and I think I have a pretty good idea of my market to the North American Consumer, (as painless as possible and we want it yesterday!.......) I can not tell you how many hours I have spent talking to folks who can't figure out how to put the firebrick back in, after they just removed it less than an hour ago to move the stove into the house. So we know on a combustion system in the hands of someone like that......would turn into many many hours on the phone trying to explain how it goes together. Plug and Play is the only way.

Jason's current kit design he sells requires modifications be made to the stove and the Intensifire itself to get it to work. The kit contains a SS Tube of a specific dia based on what your doing and a ceramic 3 piece nozzle system that is assembled in such a way to concentrate the combustion gases into the tube so that they are consumed by the intense heat and vaporized, much the way Bio Waste and other Bio Hazards are disposed via intense incineration. Then there is the issue of tuning it to burn properly which as I witnessed several times can take hours, days, even weeks of messing around with fitting and modifying the stove so it gets enough combustion air. I heard about some of the customers Jason has worked with, he has far more patience than I do and his understanding of how it works is from his thousands of hours of playing around with the idea. He is also a one man operation with very low overhead, his passion for the product is what makes him tick, he could talk about it all day, its his baby.

Teaching my team to be able to troubleshoot and tune the Intensifire in any woodstove ever made is a very daunting task. Easy for Jason, because of the thousands of hours he has invested into this project thus far.....but what is in his head, is in his head, on the other-side of the planet. My ability to clone him and stick him in my office to  manage all those calls is limited.
Our goal is happy customers and hopefully cleaner air as well.


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