# The great piping fiasco?  Need help!



## RowCropRenegade (Jan 4, 2010)

I've spent the better part of the past week trying to figure out what I have here.  I can't do much more in the Garn room until I get this piping rolling.  I've built my model out of legos.  It's not to scale, and very simplified.  I've left out the cold water fill, pressure tank, dhw in my model.  It's by no means to scale, but a way to convey what I got to you hearth guys. 

The pictures labeled on the model are referenced to the file name of the picture.  Please advise me if you can't read the labeling on my model.

What I don't understand about my piping model is why does the downstairs loop T into a return and continues to supply the remainder of the downstairs loop and mix back in at the supply.  Picture 8 is where the T is.  Picture 2 shows the downstairs finishing its return at supply on boiler out side.  It's confusing me bigtime!  

Appreciate the help.  I'm lost without it.


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## sgschwend (Jan 4, 2010)

Sorry about you plumbing problems, don't really know why it is that way, can you ask the installer?

I did notice that you have dissimilar metals causing a corrosion problem.   You need to fix that manual air vent bleed galvanized connection before you have a flood (perhaps this connection is indicative of the other issue, ie another mistake).


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## sbleiweiss (Jan 4, 2010)

Is it possible that this "extra" pipe that runs form the boiler supply and T's into the boiler return was put in as a pressure bypass? Is there a valve in the line to restrict the flow? It could have been added to keep the circulator from being completely blocked off when no call for heat from the zones, or to keep the flow velocity from getting too high and making noise in the pipes? Or maybe an old zone was removed and it is a mistake? How are the zones controlled? Are there zone valves somewhere?

That looks like an electric water heater. If it is piped to the boiler, I sure hope it is piped into a DHW coil in the boiler. There are a number of reasons you can't run DHW straight through the boiler... Most important is that you don't want a steady supply of oxygen into your boiler loop  It will corrode everything...


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 4, 2010)

Thankyou guys for the tips.  Sgschwend, I do have corrosion issues, but its not bad for 40 years of operation.  All the pipes I inspected in attic and closets are insulated and look clean at joints.  I've made a note to change that air out. I'll probably end up redoing it this summer, but I'm trying to understand it better before I go tearing stuff out.

scottb, there is a valve in the boiler room right before it tees back into the main supply side.  I can't turn it off because that will shut bot half downstairs off.  The return side in my closet needs to be the line shut off.  There are no zone valves in this house and the circulator runs 24/7.  I also thought my boiler was dumping heated water into my water heater, found manual and said it had tankless coil in the boiler.

I've read 4 Dan Holohan's books and he's always coaxing the reader to think like water.  High pressure goes to low pressure.  If I'm the water coming to the T in my closet.  I have two choices.  Go down and across through the floor into 56 more feet of zig zagging radiators or go into a bigger a diameter pipe (less resistance) 12 feet up and go 40 feet back to the boiler.   The next room it goes into from my bedroom, is the living room.  Which is traditionally colder cause of 2 windows entry door and 12ft ceilings.  The thermastat is in this room also.


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## Jim K in PA (Jan 4, 2010)

Reed - all I can say is . . . wow.

I concur with Scott - it looks like your pre-heating your DHW via the coil in the oil furnace, and then sending it to the electric water heater.  I would hazard a guess that the electric water heater was added to stop complaints about a lack of hot water.

As to the piping and distribution system, you have a rudimentary one, at best.  If the circ is running 24/7 and there are no zone vavles of any kind, the house must get pretty warm in mild weather!  What is the t-stat wired to?  It sounds like just the boiler control.  If there is a Honeywell aquastat, it must be wired for cold start, and is regulating temperature by burner only.  What is the hi/lo setting on the boiler?

The simplest thing you can do right now, to get your GARN integrated into the house heat, is to pipe the boiler return main line through a flat plate HX, and counter flow the supply from the GARN through the other side of the flat plate.  This will allow everything to continue to function as it is now, and have the oil as backup if the GARN temp drops too low.  

Tough to suggest where else to start.  Given the season, you sure don't want to tear into the house piping any more than is absolutely necessary.


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## Hunderliggur (Jan 4, 2010)

Are you sure you have the flow correct on the right left hand bb radiator lego?  If you mapped this out from actuals it looks like you have a reverse flow in the left hand radiator.  Perhaps a check valve in the stub between the left hand and center bb radiator would correct the flow and prevent the cold return in to the hot supply.  The check valve would be put in to allow flow from the "top" of the left hand bb radiator towards the T at the "top" of the center bb radiator.

I think your Lego piping diagram is great!  And no licens for Microsoft Visio is needed ;-)


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 5, 2010)

Jim,  The t stat is hooked into boiler controls.  There isn't any wires going to the pump.  Turn up tstat, the boiler fires.  Turn on hot water, boiler fires.  If there were zone valves in the house somewhere, there would be wires back to pump.  My t stat is set at 72 and that makes it around 70 in the house.  High limit is at 180 and low 80 right now.  I''m the outdoor reset around here.  I've screwed with the high low limit for years.    I don't fire the boiler in the summer, so the electric hotwater heater does its part then.  

I've been trying to emulate your primary loop, Jim.  Only difference so far is the primary pump is on return side, so it can be low.  I'm doing 2 inch primary with 1.5 return.  Top two supplies are house then barn and bot 1.5 return can supply garage/future aps of lower temp water.  

Got a 70 heat plate exchanger today.  Fair price. Priced the two pumps I was recommended were Taco 0012 Delta T pumps.  Sized big enough to handle big barn and house.  Not exactly sure how this fits with my current setup yet.  Haven't bought them yet.  Want to get physical piping in place so a proper measurement can be conducted.  The primary loop seems most clear to me right now, so I start there.

TY for the compliments on my legos hunderliggur.  Mom and Dad payed for their cost a long time ago, hehe! It backflowing is not what the lego model represents.  It's teeing off into a supply and a return.  Picture 8/2 show what i mean.

So many questions to resolve.  boiler temp low right now cause im running propane fireplace, fooling the thermstat.  The pump is a bell and gosset 1/12 hp motor.  Rebuilt weird spring assembley/turbine two years ago.


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## sbleiweiss (Jan 5, 2010)

OK, I did not realize that there were radiators on that extra loop. You simply have 2 radiator loops in parallel sharing a return. No problem there.

If I were you I would plumb the HX into the boiler return line. It's the cleanest point that you can tap into this system. The supply side of the boiler is so tight that plumbing the Hx into that point looks like a problem.

With the Garn, you do not want to run that boiler circ 24/7. You will be cooked inside your house. I would recommend adding a circulator relay (TACO SR501) and hook the existing thermostat into the relay control. The relay will run the circulator when the house calls for heat. There are two output relays in the SR501, the second relay will be connected back to the oil boiler control to tell the boiler to fire when there is a call for heat. Since the garn will be heating the loop, the boiler will not fire when the Garn is hot. Just make sure that the boiler high limit is set below the temp that the Garn supplies. The oil boiler might fire initially if there has not been a call for heat in a while, but quickly shut off once the Garn heat starts heating up the oil boiler. It's a compromise for keeping things simple and having just the one circ on the house loop.

I am assuming the circ on the Garn side would run 24/7, but you could also power it in parallel with your house side circulator. Does the Garn side circulator need to be a bronze / stainless pump? 

I am dying to hear if you ever need to run the radiant heat in the room with the Garn. My guess is that this room stays plenty warm with no heat other than the boiler...


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## deerhntr (Jan 5, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> J
> Priced the two pumps I was recommended were Taco 0012 Delta T pumps.  Sized big enough to handle big barn and house.  Not exactly sure how this fits with my current setup yet.  Haven't bought them yet.  Want to get physical piping in place so a proper measurement can be conducted.  The primary loop seems most clear to me right now, so I start there.



Reed,

Be real careful with the Delta T pumps. Read my Blog. I have not completely worked my issues out yet, but I am not sure that TACOs delta T pump works well for a system that has such a LARGE OPERATING Temperature range, i.e. the GARN system. I believe the taco delta-t pumps were designed assuming a tight temperature range provided by current fossil fuel boilers, like my oil boiler which operated in a very tight 200F to 180F range. The delta T pumps then allow you to set the supply/return temperature delta, say 20F, and the pump will modulate is speed to match the load and provide that system delta T. But, with fossil fuel boilers, you can always keep your ABSOLUTE temperature in a very tight range. What I found when I installed my delta-t pump with the GARN, is the pump was very happy to operate at a 20F delta-t, when the Absolute temps were say, 140F-120F. The PUMP does not TAKE ABSOLUTE TEMP into account. So even when your heat load is increasing, it WILL not speed up if the TEMP DELTA meets the setting. Big Problem! There are an infinite set of delta-T solutions for a relative temperature delta, when absolute temperature is not taken in to account. I talked with the taco tech support, and I am currently operating my Delta T pump in a set point mode that allows it to run flat out when ever there is a call for heat. The fancy, and expensive Delta-T pump runs like a pump that I could have purchase for 1/3 the price!


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## Jim K in PA (Jan 5, 2010)

Reed, listen to Russ.  Get yourself a couple of Grundfos Alpha 3 speed units.  I used the UPS43-44 for my primary, and a 26-99 for my house loop.  They will have all the adjustment you need.  Much later, if you change your house piping/pumping and controls, get a delta P ecm pump for that side of the system.

BTW - you mentioned early in the thread about not showing an expansion tank.  Your house-side piping should already have one, yes?  The GARN side does not need one.

Double check Dan's book on p/s piping.  I'm not sure that putting the loads on the suction side of the pump is a good idea.  Can you solve your NPSH demand in some other way?


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 6, 2010)

It's been an awful day, but still managed to get some grain hauling done.  Aside from the grain truck spring a leak in the middle of the night last nite, leaking high priced road diesel all over the floor.  Thank our lucky stars we didn't have a fire.  Unthank the unlucky stars I decided to fill it yesterday.  Then my pickup did some weird stuff.  

So time to deal with the problem at home.  Brightens my day to see helpful responses.

Scott, I don't believe we are not seeing the same thing.  The upstairs loop shares a return with the downstairs, yes.  However, it seems odd to put a return in the middle of the downstairs loop and return the remainder of the loop into the supply side.   It's almost halfway through the downstairs loop when it returns.  Still have 2 big rooms and 3 smaller rooms to do.   That's the coldest water in the system.  Shouldn't the downstairs finish its' loop and then Tee into the upstairs return?   I'm calling it random piping.  Dad said there were alot of shoddy (and still is) plumbers in the neighborhood.  Stainless would be nice but not necessary.  Cast Iron is the norm I think?  I don't think I will need the radiant but I will hook it up regardless.  It's my learning area.

Russ, you threw a curveball at me.  I'm a little relieved, actually.  Those 0012 Variable Delta T pumps were 376 a piece, I would need 2.  I figured on my primary loop, this would be ideal.  I checked out your blog again.  I'm now thinking I should try to get a company in here and help me out.  This is exactly why I haven't bought the pumps.  I figure I'll pipe it out, do the math and size it properly.  I've refused to rush it at this point and I'll stay the course.  If I have to drive to cincinnati to get the RIGHT pump the last day to fire the unit.  I fully understand the complications of your system with the variable delta T pumps.  Are they selling faulty pumps?  

Jim, the expansion tank pipes out of the top of the output on the boiler.  The cold water on its way to the cold water supply on the boiler is Teed into the fill valve and pressure tank.  The expansion tank broke 2 weeks ago.  It's completely full of water.  I've been bleeding water out of it, to relieve some pressure that builds up.  It's also in the wrong place according to Gil.  The pump does NOT pump away from it.  Pumps through the pressure tank.  So I get some nasty airlocks if I shut the system off, do any maintenance and hear the water moving, regularly.  Also, my pump is creating a negative pressure on its suction side to move the water.  Who knows what it's doing right now.  I honestly could care less at this point.  The boiler is good, the pump is good but the rest looks like scrap copper to me.


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## deerhntr (Jan 6, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> It's been an awful day, but still managed to get some grain hauling done.  Aside from the grain truck spring a leak in the middle of the night last nite, leaking high priced road diesel all over the floor.  Thank our lucky stars we didn't have a fire.  Unthank the unlucky stars I decided to fill it yesterday.  Then my pickup did some weird stuff.


I know exactly where you are coming from when it comes to equipment breaking down> I have far to many engines to fiddle with!



> Russ, you threw a curveball at me.  I'm a little relieved, actually.  Those 0012 Variable Delta T pumps were 376 a piece, I would need 2.  I figured on my primary loop, this would be ideal.  I checked out your blog again.  I'm now thinking I should try to get a company in here and help me out.  This is exactly why I haven't bought the pumps.  I figure I'll pipe it out, do the math and size it properly.  I've refused to rush it at this point and I'll stay the course.  If I have to drive to cincinnati to get the RIGHT pump the last day to fire the unit.  I fully understand the complications of your system with the variable delta T pumps.  Are they selling faulty pumps?



I would not say they are selling faulty pumps at all. I just think we have unique situations with our Storage boilers, and they have designed thes pumps for the masses, and let's face it Our GARNs are in the minority.  We just need to think a little harder about how are system will work.

Just one thought, you may want to download the Taco HSS program. If you put in a little time, it will help you do the math, and select the right pump. I used, and it work well.

Good luck


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## sbleiweiss (Jan 6, 2010)

If you think about this 3rd return pipe that you call downstairs return as a downstairs supply it seems OK to me. The downstairs has 2 feeds which feed 2 strings of radiators and then come together into a single return pipe. The pump will keep water flowing away from the boiler on this pipe, so it is a supply. That is how it looks in the Leggo drawing to my eye.

Thanks for sharing this install with us. I am quite impressed at how quickly you are able to get relatively huge projects done. This install would take me years...


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 6, 2010)

scott, I understand what you are saying.  Maybe that is what is happening.  Maybe I have 3 different loops and them all sharing the same return.    I've redone my schematic to reflect that.  That makes sooooo much more sense.  I'm going to pick up an infrared thermometer today to verify that.  Your post this morning has me looking at this project much more positive today. 

Happy to share my progress.  I have learned so much since joining hearth and through the support of my Garn distributer.  I figure it's the least I could do, was give another future wood boiler a roadmap of sorts.  This has been the largest project of the year.  The time I've spent online, reading, researching and talking to people problably triple the actual working hours.  Been worth every minute.  Too bad I couldn't get it done before winter.  Burning over 10 gal of diesel a day.  

Russ, I have that program and found the legos to be faster and more fun.  I'll probably do the calculations physically after all the final piping is done.  I'm still thinking the Delta T pumps will be ideal for my current system and for future additions.  I can live with the cost, it's within budget.  I won't fully decide until I know exactly what's going on in this old farmhouse.  Your red flags on the pumps has me asking all the right questions...so far.

Thanks!  I'm attaching a new schematic to reflect scott's idea. (which i think he is right)  If this is the case, I'll take out old pump and put in variable speed zone valve pump with 3 different zone valves.  Keep oil boiler warm, heat DHW through oil boiler coil and not have to change much inside.  Oil boiler bypass is not indicated but I think I should have one in case oil boiler leaks, cause the whole system to be useless.


Any of you Garn guys put a mixing valve on your garns?


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 6, 2010)

Also in this picture, I could make a manifold on output side of oil boiler for future radiant loops, DHW etc. (not shown)


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 7, 2010)

Knew it wasn't a good thing when I showed up to the plumbing store yesterday and the guy leaving had a cart load of black iron material.  Managed to get some parts, so I can move beyond legos.   I priced a mixing valve for the garn.  2 inch T style with settable mix setpoint.  785.00.  Skipping the mix valve, I figure this primary loop will be doing most my mixing for me.  

Also confirmed what we were discussing here the other day.  Used that infrared temp gauge to verify the flow. 160 boiler temp, 130 pipe temp out of boiler near 115 at the return in closet.  I'm guessing the actual water temperaturs is 140-150.  Very reason I'm installing temp gauges all over in new systems.  What I have is a 3 pipe supply, with single return.   Simplifies alot of things.

Anyone have any comments about this potential manifold?


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## deerhntr (Jan 7, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> Knew it wasn't a good thing when I showed up to the plumbing store yesterday and the guy leaving had a cart load of black iron material.  Managed to get some parts, so I can move beyond legos.   I priced a mixing valve for the garn.  2 inch T style with settable mix setpoint.  785.00.  Skipping the mix valve, I figure this primary loop will be doing most my mixing for me.
> 
> Also confirmed what we were discussing here the other day.  Used that infrared temp gauge to verify the flow. 160 boiler temp, 130 pipe temp out of boiler near 115 at the return in closet.  I'm guessing the actual water temperaturs is 140-150.  Very reason I'm installing temp gauges all over in new systems.  What I have is a 3 pipe supply, with single return.   Simplifies alot of things.
> 
> Anyone have any comments about this potential manifold?



Reed,
First off that stuff ain't cheap. But Why do you need a 2" mixing valve?  I would guess you will want to mix things out closer to your loads, and I can't believe you will need 2" for you load piping. What kind of heat load did you calculate? When I worse case things, it is a stretch to get to 100KBTU/hr, and I have 1-1/4" main distribution, and no more than 3/4" for the zones. I have 10' feet of 1-1/2" black steel from the back of the garn, then all 1-1/4" from there.


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 8, 2010)

My house/hot water 120k.  85k big barn at least.  Plus I have a potential application where it could be possible to demand max garn load, 24 hours a day.  Won't specify what that function is.  I would be a pioneer if I could pull it off.

I'm sizing this manifold big for just the house.  I'll willing to waste some BTUs.  This system won't be fully operational for 3 4 5 years.  1.25 will be max secondary line size, but the other top two pairs of Tees might be needed for the barn alone.  This is where these delta T pumps makes alot of sense.  I agree this stuff is sky high.  But at least its not chinese junk.  I'll pay the premium for American made.  I knew well before I bought this thing that it would be expensive.  The primary loop is grossly oversized for now, but future it wont be.  Hope this explains my reasoning a little bit.

This manifold will be in the garage, probably the main heater for the room too.  It's uninsulated right now.


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## deerhntr (Jan 8, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> My house/hot water 120k.  85k big barn at least.  Plus I have a potential application where it could be possible to demand max garn load, 24 hours a day.  Won't specify what that function is.  I would be a pioneer if I could pull it off.
> 
> I'm sizing this manifold big for just the house.  I'll willing to waste some BTUs.  This system won't be fully operational for 3 4 5 years.  1.25 will be max secondary line size, but the other top two pairs of Tees might be needed for the barn alone.  This is where these delta T pumps makes alot of sense.  I agree this stuff is sky high.  But at least its not chinese junk.  I'll pay the premium for American made.  I knew well before I bought this thing that it would be expensive.  The primary loop is grossly oversized for now, but future it wont be.  Hope this explains my reasoning a little bit.
> 
> This manifold will be in the garage, probably the main heater for the room too.  It's uninsulated right now.



Sounds Like you've got a plan!. Anything above 1" starts to get pricey. I can't wait to see the end result.


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## Jim K in PA (Jan 8, 2010)

Reed - rather than a mixing valve, it might make more sense to pipe an injection loop with a setpoint controlled pump.  I know Russ had troubles with his delta T pump, but perhaps the newer ones will address the absolute temp issue?

I have no low temp emitters, so I pipe all the heat I have right through the system.  When GARN temps are high, I kind of wish I could mix it down to 170 or so until the temp in the tank drops, but it works so well now, I really have no motivation to work that out.

I think I have an idea what your "mystery" plan might be, but I won't spill the beans . . .  ;-)


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 8, 2010)

Russ, I'm estimating the primary manifold will probably be 1k without the pump.  But look at the potential.

Jim,  Maybe I'm looking at this mixing valve all wrong.  I've decided it won't be a problem until it's all a low temp system OR in 4 or 5 years when I drain the garn, add it then.  Garn will be paid for at that point.
I guess I don't understand where the mixing valve goes.  Out of back of garn on supply side I thought you put in an inline mixing valve Tee.  2"inch to 1.5" then it Tees into bottom return line.  Preset the temp return was what really jacks up the price.


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## Jim K in PA (Jan 8, 2010)

Unless you need the same (reduced) temp water for every load, you don't need or want to mix it at the back of the GARN use the primary S&R.  Use a mixing valve on the S&R lines for each secondary load off the primary to set the max temp you want.  And only use a MV on those loads that do not require high temp water.  For your house with BB emitters, you want the hottest water you can get, so no sense in mixing the primary or the secondary loop for the house.  As you add loads with different demands in the future, you can design the supply piping with or without the mixing valve as needed.

In a P/S system, each secondary loop "sees" the primary as it's own heat source, almost like a furnace at each supply point.  As you add loads, the temp drops in the primary loop after each load.  How much depends on the load, of course.  When you plan your layout, you design it so that the load that needs the hottest water gets fed first, and then cascade the loads down from there on the primary.

Hope that made sense.


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## ewdudley (Jan 8, 2010)

Jim K in PA said:
			
		

> Unless you need the same (reduced) temp water for every load, you don't need or want to mix it at the back of the GARN use the primary S&R.  Use a mixing valve on the S&R lines for each secondary load off the primary to set the max temp you want.  And only use a MV on those loads that do not require high temp water.  For your house with BB emitters, you want the hottest water you can get, so no sense in mixing the primary or the secondary loop for the house.  As you add loads with different demands in the future, you can design the supply piping with or without the mixing valve as needed.
> 
> In a P/S system, each secondary loop "sees" the primary as it's own heat source, almost like a furnace at each supply point.  As you add loads, the temp drops in the primary loop after each load.  How much depends on the load, of course.  When you plan your layout, you design it so that the load that needs the hottest water gets fed first, and then cascade the loads down from there on the primary.
> 
> Hope that made sense.



Also I think a case could be made for a 15-20 gallon or so hydraulic-separator/buffer tank in the basement to make the transport loop independent from the load primary loop.  This way return temperature to the heating plant could be controlled such that all return water to the heating plant is 'used up' and heat is not pumped back and forth to the load all day.

--ewd


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 8, 2010)

Jim,  I meant a mixing valve for protection of the garn.  Keep cool water at end of manifold from re-entering garn below 120.  The 3 loops after my house loops could potentionally be radiant loops, you are saying put mixing valves on the secondary S&R of each of those loops.  Which doesn't do much for protection of the Garn, or does it?

Apparently, no one has put their primary pump on return side with a Garn.  I asked a question that apparently Martin alone has the answer for.  Jim did you get your pump moved lower?  If so, where did you put it?

If Russ is watching, I'm reviewing how his system is Teed into his boiler room.  Looking very similiar to mine, except his future barn loop is my future in house radiant loops.

Every day this project changes a little.  Added another Tee to bring in new cold water to the manifold, mount the filter and all.  Be nice way to clean out manifold after piping.


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## deerhntr (Jan 8, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> If Russ is watching, I'm reviewing how his system is Teed into his boiler room.  Looking very similiar to mine, except his future barn loop is my future in house radiant loops.



Reed.
I'm watching, and the manifold looks good. I originally was going to pipe my GARN with a primary/secondary loop similar to Jim's and similar to your configuration, but when I ran my simulations with the HSS program, the temp drop for my barn caused a bit of concern. I plan to hang a Modine type forced hot air blower, and they really like hot water. So I decided to plumb a supply/return manifold that distributed equal temp water to both loads.

The one question, are your unions dielectric? I could not tell from the picture. I guess if you are all black steel in your GARN boiler room you are o.k. until you change material on your load distribution lines. I switched to copper in my boiler room, so my couplers at that point are dielectric unions.


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 9, 2010)

Russ,

My unions are not dielectric.  Won't hit copper until 100 feet away in the oil boiler room.  Probably right out of hx will be dielectric unions.  I 

A question about your system... besides the taco delta pump, there is another pump on your old boiler loop?  If so, where is it at?


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## deerhntr (Jan 9, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> Russ,
> 
> My unions are not dielectric.  Won't hit copper until 100 feet away in the oil boiler room.  Probably right out of hx will be dielectric unions.  I
> 
> A question about your system... besides the taco delta pump, there is another pump on your old boiler loop?  If so, where is it at?



If you look at my diagram with the heat exchanger you will see a supply manifold on the top of the existing boiler. That supply manifold supplies 6 zones. Each zone has a pump, pumping away from the boiler into the load, and returns to the return manifold on the left side of the diagram. My existing boiler is plumbed with just the supply and return manifolds. No primary/secondary. 

Hope that helps.


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## Gooserider (Jan 9, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> Jim,  I meant a mixing valve for protection of the garn.  Keep cool water at end of manifold from re-entering garn below 120.  The 3 loops after my house loops could potentionally be radiant loops, you are saying put mixing valves on the secondary S&R of each of those loops.  Which doesn't do much for protection of the Garn, or does it?
> 
> Apparently, no one has put their primary pump on return side with a Garn.  I asked a question that apparently Martin alone has the answer for.  Jim did you get your pump moved lower?  If so, where did you put it?
> 
> ...



Hopefully someone with more Garn expertise will tell me if I'm wrong, but my understanding of the reasoning behind return water temp protection and the way a Garn operates, is that a Garn really doesn't need that sort of protection, and you are going to get the best performance if your return water is as cold as you can get it (from using the BTU's to heat with, of course, not just running the water through a cooler...)  In theory at least, and possibly in practice if your loads were mostly low temp radiant circuits, you could cycle the Garn tank down to around 90°F or so, well below the normal condensation temps, and get really high efficiency on the reheat burn...

In a standard gasser or other cast iron boiler, the return water pretty much blasts against the inside wall of the firebox, and if it's cold, can cause concentrated flue gas condensation at that one point, with subsequent corrosion, and so forth.  Thus protection is needed to ensure that the return water is above the condensation temp, about 140°F...  

With the Garn, the cold water just flows into the giant tank, where hopefully it stratifies and pushes the warmer water towards the top of the tank for use - when the entire tank is cold the unit is fired, and the firebox and exhaust tubes get heated, and are mostly surrounded by a layer of the water they are heating, which keeps them above condensation temperature...  Any cold water returning to the tank during the firing still mixes into the bottom layer, and doesn't impinge on the firebox, so there is no condensation issue - if no condensation, no need for protection...

Gooserider


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 9, 2010)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> RowCropRenegade said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is the best I've had it explained to me.  I didn't realize the protection was for the firebox itself.  Low temp water is what we want at the bottom of the tank.  This explanation helps me comfortable elminate the need to plan for a mixing valve on the primary loop.  Thanks Gooserider!


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## Scott from Canada (Jan 9, 2010)

That is exactly what Ken from Garn told me. No mixing valve required on the return line at the Garn unit. Keep up the good work you guys, I am still in the planning stages as while my 1500 sits on my trailer.

Scott


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## Jim K in PA (Jan 9, 2010)

Sorry Reed, I did not pick up on your intent of the mixing valve on the back of the GARN to be for low return temp protection.  Goose is 100% correct, the GARN has such a large volume of water, and is configured to stratify nicely, that no low return temp protection is needed.  The large tank is a buffer, and you can run it down as far as you want (and can get usable heat from).


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 10, 2010)

Thanks for helping make my elimination of the mixing valve.  

Jim, I know you talked about moving your primary loop pump lower, did you ever move it?  If so where to?


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## Jim K in PA (Jan 10, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> Jim, I know you talked about moving your primary loop pump lower, did you ever move it?  If so where to?



I did not move the whole loop this year, as completely re-piping the house side was more of a priority, and took longer than I had planned.  The house side was also more important than the GARN side to address.  I did, however, move the pump about a foot lower by just swapping a pipe section.  It is now about 12" lower than last year, and almost even with the bottom of the tank of the GARN.  The secondary pump(s) are still at the same level, and I want to drop them too.  I will revise the primary next year when I incorporate the propane backup loop.  So far, I have not exceeded 200 more than once or twice, and have not detected any suction boiling.


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 11, 2010)

Maybe I'm nit picking each detail but I dont want to have to go back and do it again.

What I don't like about my planned system right now, is those pumps.  I figured they would shut off when the delta T was below 20, not the case.  They run at low speed.  So basically when the zones aren't calling for heat, the primary and secondary pumps will be running at low speed, just siphoning btus out of the garn.  Maybe its minimal enough to not worry about.  Any thoughts?


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## deerhntr (Jan 11, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> Maybe I'm nit picking each detail but I dont want to have to go back and do it again.
> 
> What I don't like about my planned system right now, is those pumps.  I figured they would shut off when the delta T was below 20, not the case.  They run at low speed.  So basically when the zones aren't calling for heat, the primary and secondary pumps will be running at low speed, just siphoning btus out of the garn.  Maybe its minimal enough to not worry about.  Any thoughts?



Reed,

The pumps will only be on if your TSTAT is calling for heat, Then the pump will adjust to deliver the BTUs required to meet you delta T setting. As long as your load needs BTUs, the circulator will operate and deliver BTUs. If the pump adjusts down to the minimum speed, and your TSTAT is still calling, the only wasted BTUs would be the difference between the amount required by the load,and the extra delivered at the minimum speed.  If the speed required is the lowest trickle, then that is where the pump will operate. The pump does have an exercise mode that if it has not been run is 72 hours, it will run for 10 seconds.


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## Jim K in PA (Jan 11, 2010)

What he said  :lol: 

Seriously - your pumps should be controlled by a relay with signal from the t-stat(s).  My primary & secondary pumps only come on when there is a call for heat.

Just for giggles, yesterday I went and checked the supply and return temps on the primary loop and the secondary loop for the house.  It was in the mid 20s outside.  Garn tank temp was ~172.   ΔT on the primary was EXACTLY 10°F with the 43-44 set on low.   ΔT on the secondary was within .1 degrees of 20°F with the 26-99 also set on low.  I have a pair of Azel temp units in the garage with sensors strapped to the piping.  Not too shabby, I think.   :coolsmile:


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 12, 2010)

Thanks Russ and Jim!

ok, that makes a whole lot more sense. - adding the relays.  They turn the pumps on and off depending what the tstat says.  Glad I asked this question.  Got backhoe fixed yesterday, digging a trench tomorrow.   What type of wire does the tstat use to communicate with the relays?  

I was hoping to make it through this project without doing too much wiring.  wrong again!


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## deerhntr (Jan 12, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> Thanks Russ and Jim!
> 
> ok, that makes a whole lot more sense. - adding the relays.  They turn the pumps on and off depending what the tstat says.  Glad I asked this question.  Got backhoe fixed yesterday, digging a trench tomorrow.   What type of wire does the tstat use to communicate with the relays?
> 
> I was hoping to make it through this project without doing too much wiring.  wrong again!



Reed,

Thermostat wiring is usually 18 gauge, solid copper, multi-strand(Typical 4). I recall you mentioned that your house had one TSTAT that controlled you existing boiler. There should be some control wiring from that tstat to some type of relay on your boiler. From there the relay(or relays) switch on you boiler, and associated circulator. Check out the wiring that you already have.

You may need to install a zone control board similar to a Taco SR-503. This is a 3 zone controller with priority for example. Taco has a very nice guide, 95 pages long, at Taco Wiring Guide that has a number of examples, a glossary, and other useful information.

You may want to locate you zone controller in the GARN room, then route control wiring to/from the loads. That may require additional single switching relays at the circulator locations like a Taco SR-501.

Good luck, it will all seem simple when you look back this time next year!


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## Gooserider (Jan 12, 2010)

What I suggest, and have seen many others do likewise is to drop a couple of 3/4" conduit runs in the trench along side the water pipes - either official PVC NMT, or I've heard of people using non-porous irrigation pipe, or equivalent - this better protects the wires, and allows easy modifications and changes in the future.  What many folks do for wiring is use Cat5 or Cat5e computer Ethernet cabling - it's a little lighter weight, but you get 8 conductors per strand, and data wires don't normally carry any significant current, so it should work fine - if you do need to up the current capacity a little, just use two or more strands tied together...

Note that if you will be running AC power lines as well, they may NOT be run in the same conduit as your data cables, and if possible the AC conduit and the data conduit should be kept as far apart as possible...  This is for both safety and data-quality reasons...

Gooserider


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 14, 2010)

Russ, I was hoping to leave the old boiler controls alone.  Set that thermostat lower at like, 60 degrees.  I'm hoping that the only relays I will need will be for the main manifold and each secondary loop pumps.  Still investigating the best route to go with the current boiler.  I suspect I'll go ahead with the basics just to get the unit going, then go back and add all the relays, maybe outdoor reset.  It's all so vague still.  I'm sure you are right about it being simple next year.  Unfortunately, I'm burning about 10 gals a day of diesel until then.

I've hit a roadblock, though.  Was trying to reply to these posts last nite, but my head was splitting so bad i can't concrentrate.  My filling came out and the tooth is unsavable.  So instead of digging a trench tomorrow,  I'll be doped up and having a tooth removed.  Vicoden goes great with backhoes, right? haha.

Goose,  I got 4 different conduit lines I'm running.  1 dedicated conduit for 10gauge electric wire - unknown use yet, 1 dedicated to be empty, 1 for network cable, 1 for tstat/pump wiring.  I think I'll go to lowes or home depot and get some tstat wire, hate to waste good cat5 cable, probably double or triple the cost.    Definately will keep the electric conduit away from the data cables.


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## pybyr (Jan 14, 2010)

Nofossil has previously pointed out, and I agree, that black polyethylene water pipe makes an excellent low cost conduit for underground wiring.


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 14, 2010)

That is an excellent idea.  Too bad I bought all the conduit I needed 3 months ago.


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## deerhntr (Jan 14, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> Russ, I was hoping to leave the old boiler controls alone.  Set that thermostat lower at like, 60 degrees.  I'm hoping that the only relays I will need will be for the main manifold and each secondary loop pumps.  Still investigating the best route to go with the current boiler.  I suspect I'll go ahead with the basics just to get the unit going, then go back and add all the relays, maybe outdoor reset.  It's all so vague still.  I'm sure you are right about it being simple next year.  Unfortunately, I'm burning about 10 gals a day of diesel until then.



I didn't mean for you to redo your existing boiler control wiring, I was just suggesting that you take a look at what you have, and use that as a baseline. 

As for the primary and secondary pump switching, you will still need at least a zone controller for your secondary loads, and a single SR-501 type relay for your primary pump switched off the end switch of your zone control board. Then of course you will need thermostats at you loads that are routed back to the zone control board. It will be cheaper to buy a multizone board, then to do it with individual SR-501, or equivalent. Most of Taco's have expansion slots for add-ons like your "outdoor reset" control.

Good Luck with that Tooth! ouch :snake:


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 15, 2010)

Russ,

I've been looking at NoFossil's controller for quite a while.  It would be a very cool, flexible tool I can grow with.  I need to be careful in what I purchase now, considering the barn project will start this summer.  I probably won't put in any relays this year.  Just let the pumps run on low.  It isn't that far to spring.  Need to get her up and running so I can go harvest a 150 year old black locust.    Still trying to decide on what pump/zone valves I need inside the house.  I've been reading alot about zone valves.  Might be cheaper to go with small circulators instead.   But tomorrow I'll put in the infrastructure I need to communicate with every building.  

That tooth is gone!  I have regained my ability to concentrate.  Though vicodin makes me itchy and sleepy.  I got an operator for the backhoe, ill be probe/diggerman.  Will feel like summer, 44 tomorrow.


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## sbleiweiss (Jan 15, 2010)

Reed,
I think you will find that cat5 cable is cheaper per foot than thermostat wire, however I don't think it meets code to use cat5 in place of thermostat wire. The relays and zone valves should be wired with 18 gauge solid core thermostat wire. Even though they carry little current, I think this is required. Get the 3 conductor thermostat wire,  that extra conductor can come in handy at times.

Cat5 is excellent for extending temperature sensors. It is twisted pair which makes it pretty immune to noise. I am sure you will want a thermometer in the house that will show you what the temperature is out at the Garn.

I am wondering why you are pursuing a primary / secondary piping scheme for this install. I would think that the Garn can handle any amount of water moving through it with little restriction. If this is the case, then you can have multiple pumps in parallel pulling heat out of it and they won't interfere with each-other. I am no expert in hydronics, but I do know that keeping it simple is usually better. I am curios if there is some other reason that pri/sec is needed?

With regards to relays and controls. You need to add at least minimal control to the system with the initial install. Currently your oil boiler is cycled on and off to regulate the heat in the house. The Garn will not do that, it will just heat constantly. You will loose 5 lbs per night while you sleep. The relays are only $50 and pretty simple to wire up.


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 15, 2010)

Scott,

I went with primary secondary because of the simplicity of tying new systems into it.  Originally I was going to pipe it straight to the house then jump out of there to the next point.  There just isnt the room to do that in current oil boiler room.   The big barn could need as much as 150,000 btus.  Which is a number I can't pinpoint until I install insulation and such.  

I called the plumbing store, they carry 18-2, 18-5 thermostat wire.  .09 versus .19.  I'm planning on keeping the CAT5 cable as for internet/camera use only.  Bumping up from 2 to 3 lines of it.  One to supply house to barn connection.  I probably should run 3 or 4 maybe 5 of tstat wire.  3 different thermstats inside the house, maybe more with addition of radiant systems plus current oil boiler tstat.

You are right about the controls but I can't make that decision until I know what I'm doing in the house.


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## deerhntr (Jan 15, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> Russ,
> 
> I've been looking at NoFossil's controller for quite a while.  It would be a very cool, flexible tool I can grow with.  I need to be careful in what I purchase now, considering the barn project will start this summer.  I probably won't put in any relays this year.  Just let the pumps run on low.  It isn't that far to spring.



Reed,
That is your call. But...... circulating your H2O, when there is no call for heat, will do nothing but over heat your load when the demand is not there, i.e. your house. If you design you system to meet the demand of your design day, that means even on a "low"(i'm guessing a 3 speed grundfos), you still will be pumping way more BTUs than required, and that will mean.....open the windows, it's gettin hot in here.

As far as NoFossil's controller, you may want to check to be sure, but I think he does not really like switching high voltages in his box. I am not 100% certain, but I think he likes to switch low voltage with the relays in his box. For instance, if you want to do some unique control with your  thermostat, you would route the thermostat signal to his controller, process that signal, then use the result to switch 24 volts, or dry contacts on a relay, and send THAT result to a zone controller(low voltage input) to finally switch the 120 volts that turn on/off the circulator. So really you can't get away from a relay to switch your high voltage, unless the circulator is designed with a "heat request" input that is, let's say 24 volts. Then the relay is in the pump!

Have at it. It's fun.....


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## Gooserider (Jan 15, 2010)

A couple comments in terms of cabling - 

1. Wire is relatively cheap...

2. It is no harder to pull several wires at once than it is to pull one...  Moral of story, it never hurts to pull extra pairs...

3. Leave pull strings behind, it makes future expansion FAR easier...  What I always do is put in a string about twice as long as the run, plus 4-5', and tie each end to a solid object at the end of the run.  Then I fasten the wire bundle to the middle, and use the string as a "shuttle".  I just bundle up the extra and leave it stuffed in the box or wall cavity...  For the string itself, I use the nylon "masons twine" - low cost, easy to work with, and more than strong enough for the job.

Gooserider


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 15, 2010)

How about going to lunch for 5 mins and the backhoe operator decides against my orders to continue digging.  Guess what he hit.  My fuel oil line.  3/8 copper line, totally stretched out and screwed.  Never been so upset in my life.  Fired him on the spot.  I finished the digging, vicodin and all.  Tomorrow I'll run my new fuel oil line and get the boiler back going.  Thank god its not going to be cold out tonite.  Pissed til tomorrow.


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## heaterman (Jan 16, 2010)

Reed............man this is making my head spin. But here's a couple quick comments after skimming over the whole thread. Some of these were probably covered already.

In one of the pictures you have what looks like a valve with no handle, it's a circuit setting valve. Made to be adjusted to provide equal flow in two circuits that due to piping differences, don't naturally flow the same. A balancing valve if you will.

You absolutely do not need a mix valve to protect the Garn from low return temps. About the only way you could thermal shock a Garn would be to return liquid nitrogen to it.

As I recall you are going to have some heating loads connected in the Garn Barn as well as piping to the house? IE: loads in two different places?  If so, where are you going to locate the HX? My choice would be right near the garn and then build a "manifold" that would serve both locations. Having everything from the HX to the loads pressurized would allow you to locate your loop circs anywhere you wanted without fear of low NPSH problems. Piping that way would allow you to leave your current system and control setup basically intact, if you wanted to.  

Just a few late night thoughts.............. give me a ring if you want. I should be around the house tomorrow as we are babysitting 5 grandkids all day. On second thought, that might mean I'm more busy than if was swinging wrenches


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## deerhntr (Jan 16, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> How about going to lunch for 5 mins and the backhoe operator decides against my orders to continue digging.  Guess what he hit.  My fuel oil line.  3/8 copper line, totally stretched out and screwed.  Never been so upset in my life.  Fired him on the spot.  I finished the digging, vicodin and all.  Tomorrow I'll run my new fuel oil line and get the boiler back going.  Thank god its not going to be cold out tonite.  Pissed til tomorrow.



Man.... sorry to hear about the oil line break. That sucks! When I was trenching, ripping something up my biggest concern. I had water,electric main, cable tv, phone and gutter down spout drains to cross. I made it through almost clean. I caught the sch. 40 down spout drain, an ripped a nice hole in it. Not nearly as big a head-ache as what you encountered, but I still had to dig back and replace a 4' section.

Hope you didn't lose much of that precious oil. In the not to distant future, oil won't be much of a concern.


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 16, 2010)

Heaterman,  I'm going to take your offer up on that phone call.  I'm curious about your idea on location of the HX.  

Russ, managed to dodge a propane line, waterline, 2 electric line, 3 tile lines, old tree stump and apparently some type of bricked underground tank.  The funny thing is I knew about all of them with exception of the underground tank.  I didn't plan on doing anything for the oil boiler but fate says otherwise.  I lost 3 or 4 gallon of fuel.  Plus in my haste last nite to get things running, flattened my new line trying to get in bent around the well pressure tank.  Getting ready to head to town to get a junction to solve that.  It's 55 in the house and so foggy outside, it might as well be dark out.

I'll have pics by the end of the day, hopefully a warm house too.


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## Jim K in PA (Jan 16, 2010)

Hang in there Reed.  Bumps in the road, that's all these things are.  Keep your eye on the prize and you will get there.

Bricked tank - either an old cesspool or a cistern for water storage.


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## pybyr (Jan 16, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> Russ,
> 
> I've been looking at NoFossil's controller for quite a while.



Nofossil's controller is the most elegant system that I am aware of for those of us who have separate boiler/ storage.  

But one of the simple elegant beauties of the Garn is that it really does not need such a level of controls.  Feed it wood, it heats the surrounding water storage; your heat loads then pull the hot water from the Garn just as they would from an oil boiler.

A Garn's control system can be really simple; if you want to enhance monitoring, you can do that later.


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## heaterman (Jan 16, 2010)

pybyr said:
			
		

> RowCropRenegade said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Exactly! That fact that a Garn needs no complicated controls to regulate water temp or low temp protection is one of the inherent beauties of the design.


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 16, 2010)

Jim, you are correct.  I'll look at it as a learning experience.  Never cut and spliced copper before.  At least I have a guaranteed fuel line for 25 years or better.  

Pybyr, ty for your input.  The taco rep emailed me back.  I'm supposed to call him this week and he will probably be able to hold my hand through this.  The flexibility of nofossil's system is intriguing.

Heaterman gave me some ideas about placement of the heat exchanger.  I'm leaning towards putting it in garage now, close to manifold.  Like he said I could use the return water very easily for functions in the garage or even big barn.  It would also eliminate the need for the 0012 VDT on secondary loop since not very far to go.  It's a decision I'll kick down the road for now.  

Took me half the day to get oil boiler back up and going.  Here's a few pics of the trench, one is of that brick thing.  Supposed to rain tomorrow, so it may be monday before I can get back at it.  Microflex 100 ft long coil will WEAR YOU OUT uncoiling it.


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 19, 2010)

Day 4 of the trench was another small success.  Ran 5 underground CATE ethernet cables.  Will be great for shipping music around the different buildings, plus database information, cameras and other cool things. 4 18-5 Thermostat wires. 1 10-3 underground electric line. 1 empty conduit with baling wire as the pull through.

Wasn't satisfied with knocking out lowest block in oil boiler room.  That would have left microflex at less than 1 foot depth.  Same for waterline.  Sooo I love making things hard on myself.  Dug under foundation of house, no problem there, just hard digging.  Going to town to get a concrete drill bit.  Going to drill through concrete floor in oil boiler room in a circle.  Hopefully it's less than 3 or 4 inches, might be able to avoid renting a jackhammer.  But I'm coming through the floor no less.  Shouldn't have to worry about keeping that line warm then.  It's buried at 48 inches.

I've spent some more time thinking about Heaterman's idea of heat exchanger placement.  By placing the heat exchanger close to primary loop:  1) opened the possibility of using return water from house in applications in garage, increasing my delta T and fully utilizing btu/gal.  2) eliminated the need for the 2nd delta t pump, that pump will be pumping a short distance.  3) Isolated garn water very close the garn, all possible leakpoints from garn will be visible.
4) Pressurizes that 100 ft run to house and 100 ft back, good from a hydronics standpoint.

But it's thrown a wrench into my pretty lego plan.  After the trench job it's back to the drawing board!


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 19, 2010)

Hey goose one thing about the twine.  I ran three runs of baling twine then as we got ready to glue the conduit I thought, hey what if the twine gets glued every 10 ft.  lol.  i got out the baling WIRE! haha


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## Gooserider (Jan 19, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> Hey goose one thing about the twine.  I ran three runs of baling twine then as we got ready to glue the conduit I thought, hey what if the twine gets glued every 10 ft.  lol.  i got out the baling WIRE! haha



Baling wire is to stiff, or at least the stuff I've seen (You probably know a heck of a lot more about baling than I do.)  The trick to avoiding glue problems is to put the pull string in AFTER gluing up the conduit, using the "puff ball" trick - 

1. Make small soft ball out of a sheet of paper towel or equivalent, tie string to ball.  Size should be such that it fits fairly snug in the conduit, but loose enough to slide easily.  Put string ball on pencil or otherwise set it up to pay out easily.

2. Stuff ball into one end of conduit.

3a. Hook up shop vac to other end of conduit, suck ball and attached string into vac...
3b. Apply blow gun from air compressor to same end of conduit - blow ball through pipe, dragging string along...

This is how the pro's do it when pulling long lengths of cable - except they have fancy manufactured "blow mice" to do the job - something you don't need for this short of a run...

Gooserider


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## heaterman (Jan 19, 2010)

_But it’s thrown a wrench into my pretty lego plan.  After the trench job it’s back to the drawing board! _

Sorry about that Reed  (smirk smirk)

Seriously, I really appreciate it when guys take the time to do it right and from all appearances, you are.


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 20, 2010)

Actually had success breaching the concrete floor in oil boiler room.  Bought dewalt hammerdrill and 5/8  14" long concrete drill bit.  Drew a 1x2 square, drilled holes vertical 3 inches apart.  Then drilled diagonally each way.  About 2 hours of drilling, rotating back and forth.  Cracked it with sledge a few times and chiseled the edges clean.  No jackhammer needed thank god.  4 inch pad no rebar, no gravel sublayer.  Call me lucky.

Fished mircoflex and water line through.  Looks like I bought 10 ft too many on each end, got plenty to play with.  That only cost me 500 extra! Not sure at this moment how I will pressure check them.  I have 4 1.25" ball valves laying here, ball valves suffice for air test?  I'm thinking 20 lbs?  

The microflex is probably fine but you hate to find out it's not.  That new dewalt drill was leaking oil by the time we finished.  A warning?  

Lots of pics tomorrow!


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## deerhntr (Jan 20, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> That new dewalt drill was leaking oil by the time we finished.  A warning?



I like to use "the Tool Rental shop" for those abusive projects that require industrial grade stuff that I can't afford. But man I sure would like to have one of those Hilti Hammer drills for projects like this!

BTW, What diameter microflex are you running, and if you don't mind, what was your cost/foot? I was looking at that stuff in the beginning, but it just pushed me way over budget, and I decided on the hePex and foam in trench method.


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 20, 2010)

Two 1.25" pex lines, the diameter of the microflex is 6 inches.  The microflex lists for 30 per foot.  With 4 connectors I got it at 27.5 a foot.  The connectors are 65 a piece.  Busted my budget, but I knew with farming it would be difficult to arrange foaming at the exact time I needed it done.  That proved right with water laying in trench now.  I hoped to be under 25k when this started, gonna be more like 30k.  A lot of cash to spend just to burn wood.  Is your hepex have a tile around it?

Ya those Hiltis are prime time drills.  I think this one just had a bad seal.  It didn't lack power for one second.  I went through two drill bits though. $$$  Dewalt makes a lot of great tools, affordable too.  It won't stop me from buying that same drill again.  It was just a seal, the drill chewed through the concrete easily.


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## deerhntr (Jan 20, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> T  Is your hepex have a tile around it?



No. I live in a very area where shale is the dominate component in my soil. So drainage is not a problem. Water does not stand around! My trench was dry when we foamed, and the foam is waterproof, and fortunately drainage is not an issue. I'm sure you have some install specs for that micropex that details the need(or not) of drain tile for you application.


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 21, 2010)

Light clay/silt loam here, water gets away pretty good. My tile guy dropped in help out and said I had no need for tile here.  I put in new tile somewhere every year on this farm.  

I'm sick from rain/wind/bitterness of yesterday.  I'll be confined to the indoors today. 

Here's some pics as promised!


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 21, 2010)

a couple more!


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 24, 2010)

Farm stuff has drug me away from piping but I've had some time to reflect on some different ideas.  Also, lucked out when I went to the local plumbing supply store.  Met a fellow farmer who has a pipe cutting machine.  Anything up to 4 inches!  He also does gas piping on the side.  Interesting fellow.  Saved me from making multiple 12" long pieces of 2 inch iron pipe with connectors.  These pipe cutting/threading machines are up near 7-8k new.

I spent some time checking out Grundfos pumps.  I haven't done the head calcs yet, because the piping isn't done.  However, here are the pumps I'm looking at.

Primary Loop  option 1  Taco 0012 Variable Delta T pump  0-52 GPM, 0-14 head, Amps 1.33  377 bucks

                     option 2 Grundfos Alpha 15-55F  0-21GPM, 0-19 head, .65 Amps  231 bucks  Question about this ECM pump.  Will the auto mode detect when secondary pumps turn on?  It detects when pressure drop occurs, but won't there be a minimal pressure drop because of the primary secondary setup?

                     option 3  Run of the mill 3 speed Taco/Grundos decent size pump


I've decided to put the heat exchanger in the garage.  So I'll need one pump in a short run to HX, then another pump to pump to house and back 100ft+100ft.  Then inside the house I add a pump for each zone and another for DHW or another Alpha with zone valves.

The past couple days its been in the 50s, oil boiler been quiet for a few days at least.


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 24, 2010)

The small pumps I'm looking at are the Grundfos UPS15-58FC 3 speed and the Taco 00R 3 speed.  Both are in that 0-20GPM and 19 ft of head for less than 75$.


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## Jim K in PA (Jan 25, 2010)

Reed - I used the next size up Grundfos 3 speed pump (26-99) for the house run, which is a 240' round trip.  My HX is in the house, but it's location will not affect the pump choice.  The 15-58 Grundfos is equivalent to the TACO 007.  I just replaced my old 007 that failed with a 15-58 on my house-side circuit (old furnace pump).  the 15-58 will be plenty for the house side, but a bit small for the loop there and back from the GARN.

You can make yourself a little crazy with this phase of the design.  Too small a pump is far worse than too big, within reason.  For your primary pump you can use whatever pump will meet your GPM needs, as you really have no head loss except for the HX.

Consider getting a TACO SR50X switching relay controller (X=# of circuits you need to control).  The end switch can be used to turn on the primary any time a secondary pump is energized.  I used an SR506 as I have 5 pumps to ultimately control, and possibly a sixth for Solar.  You can get them as singles or -2,-3,-4,-5 or -5 circuit units.  The 506 is only around $200.  I used the end switch to signal a seperate, single relay controller for the primary.  Here is a pic from page 7 of my write up:






I was planning on changing my house loop pump (the 26-99) to a VDT type pump, but have found no real need to do so.  I posted before that my delta T is typically right at 20 with the pump on medium in very cold weather.

Once you get up and running, you will see how flexible the system is, and the GARN helps make it that way.

BTW - on Friday night I did not relight the GARN until much later than normal.  Temp was down to 120.  House was still comfortable, but I was concerned about how low it got.  I lit the fire, and was at 150 in an hour, 165 in 1.5 hours.  Demand was low (temps were in the 30s) so almost all the heat went into storage.  It is amazing how rapidly and efficiently that thing turns cellulose into heat.


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 26, 2010)

Jim, thanks for the ideas.  The Taco rep hasn't called me back yet, I'll definately mention the 506.  Maybe a 510, lol.  Question about your 506.  Are all your thermostats connected to this unit, or is there a "master" thermostat that engages them all.  I've been doing alot of reading and searching but it's still not clear how all this stuff is going to work in conjunction with each other.  Very reason I threw 4 18-5 thermostat wires in the trench, to cover communication hurdles.

You are too right about making yourself crazy with this phase.  I made the stupid vow of not cutting my hair until the Garn is running. (back in july) I'm on my way to cousin It status.  I'm headed over to my pipe cutters to get the next set of pipes cut.  Your primary pump is a 3 speed version?

How far to space the tees in the primary manifold?  4 pipe diameter of the 2 inch primary or 4 pipe diameter of the secondary 1.25 inch?  Then at least one foot of straight pipe til the next set of tees.  Haven't been able to locate this data here on hearth or the www.  Everyone says less than a foot.  They don't say if that's outside dimensions or center of pipe.  

Glad your Garn is working so good, sure justifies the expense in the end game!


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## sbleiweiss (Jan 26, 2010)

There is a good set of articles on the Caleffi site. This one deals with closely spaced T's. The maximum distance between the pair of taps (center to center) is 4 pipe diameters of the pipe that you are tapping into. Closer is better. Taco makes some really trick taps with one tap over the other in the same fitting, but not in your size.
http://www.caleffi.us/en_US/caleffi/Details/Magazines/pdf/idronics_1_us.pdf


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 26, 2010)

Scott, Thankyou!  This is a great document.  Since I've verified the next set of pipes I can get the top half of the manifold all cut to length.  Each day chip away at something.  Today is T day!  lol.  thanks again.


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## Jim K in PA (Jan 26, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> Jim, thanks for the ideas.  The Taco rep hasn't called me back yet, I'll definately mention the 506.  Maybe a 510, lol.  Question about your 506.  Are all your thermostats connected to this unit, or is there a "master" thermostat that engages them all.  I've been doing alot of reading and searching but it's still not clear how all this stuff is going to work in conjunction with each other.  Very reason I threw 4 18-5 thermostat wires in the trench, to cover communication hurdles.



LOL - you can buy a version that let's you chain up to 4 units to control up to 24 pumps.  Maybe more (I forget).  It uses a -EXP on the part #.

Let's back up a step before the SR506.  I have no t-stats connected to the SR506.  My house currently has 4 zones of BB emitters.  The 4 t-stats used to go to the 4 seperate 3-wire zone valves, with the end switch energizing the circ pump.  When I set up the system for the GARN, I added a TACO Zone Valve Controller, ZVC-406.  This unit has the transformers and connection points for up to 6 t-stats and 6 zone valves, with it's own end switch.  I have the output to the zone valves wired to energize the valve, but jumpered for the end switch on the ZVC.  This way, whenever a t-stat calls for heat, the end switch closes immediately.  I use that end switch to control the primary and secondary pump out in the garage (only two wires needed).  The p&s pumps turn on at the initial call for heat, but the zone valve takes another 45 seconds or so to open.  I use the end switch on the zone valve(s) to turn on the house circ.  This delay allows the secondary pump to send hot water to the HX located in the basement before the house circ is energized and pulls heat from it.



> You are too right about making yourself crazy with this phase.  I made the stupid vow of not cutting my hair until the Garn is running. (back in july) I'm on my way to cousin It status.  I'm headed over to my pipe cutters to get the next set of pipes cut.  Your primary pump is a 3 speed version?



All my pumps are the Grundfos Brute 3-speed versions.  I use the 43-44 on the 1.5" primary(set on low), and the 26-99 on the 1.25" secondary (set on medium) for the house.  In milder weather I could turn the secondary pump down to low, but usully don't bother.  There is no concern about sending "too" cool water back to the GARN, so return temps are not as critical.  I just like to make sure that the delta T does not exceed 20 F by too much, too often, so as to make sure the BBs are getting all the hot water I can give them.



> How far to space the tees in the primary manifold?  4 pipe diameter of the 2 inch primary or 4 pipe diameter of the secondary 1.25 inch?  Then at least one foot of straight pipe til the next set of tees.  Haven't been able to locate this data here on hearth or the www.  Everyone says less than a foot.  They don't say if that's outside dimensions or center of pipe.
> 
> Glad your Garn is working so good, sure justifies the expense in the end game!



I think Scott set you in the right direction on the dimesions.  Dan's book has the info too.

For us, this investment has been a 100% success.  This year is easier than last year.  Next year may be eaiser than this year, but even if it isn't, life with the GARN is good.  This is a system we can keep up with well into our old age, God willing.


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## Jim K in PA (Jan 26, 2010)

Oh - and get a haircut, ya punk . . .  ;-) :lol: :lol: :coolsmirk:


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 27, 2010)

Jim,  

My setup will be very similiar to yours.  Let me repeat what you explained to me. 

 I'll have 3 zone valves. (Looking at the Taco EBV zone valves)  3 different thermostats, 1 pump running house loops.  I'll need a ZVC 406, too.  I'll need to jumper to my end switch to signal the SR506 to energize the primary pump in the garage, the secondary pump circulating to the hx in the garage and the other secondary pumping to house.  Makes sense where you have your 506, right there at the manifold.  The end switches on the zone valves activate the house circulator after the zone valves open.  Interesting.  Very logical process. P/S/S pumps ramp up, basically priming the load with hot water then zone valves open and house pumps deliver it.  

In reverse,  the T-stat says no more heat.  This causes the ZVC 406 end switch to open and de-energize the SR506 and P/S/S pumps.  Then the zone valves close which the end switch kicks off the house pump.  

Or I could zone with circulators.  That means I would need a SR506 in the house and in the garage.  It looks to be the same price going either way.  I know the old saying is plumbers zone with pumps and heat guys use zone valves.  Heaterman says they don't make zone valves like they used to.  Changing a pump out is alot easier than a zone valve.  (probably best to get threaded zone valves instead of sweat?)  

LoL i should get a haircut.  But it makes me look like a mad scientist, which I am both mad and scientific!    I've finally got my pipe through the wall at the right distance.  2 trips to pipe cutter.  2" and 1.5" have big variances in tees and elbows.  Trying to get manifold perfectly square.  I think garn is at a slight angle, maybe the wall is.  Nothing square in this building, over 80 years old.  I reread P/S made easy again, never saw the spacing.   4x to center of secondary pipes.  So 8 inches.  I'll aim for 7, cause we know how piping goes.  Closer is better than over 8.  Before T's and after will be 18" run.    Mounting this beast will be interesting.

Thanks again.


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## Jim K in PA (Jan 27, 2010)

If you go with pumps, yes you would use another SRC instead of the ZVC.  There are lots of ways to skin this cat.  If you use pumps or EBVs, you will not have the delay I have in switching on the house circs after switching on the P/S circs.  I am using TACO heat motor zone valves, which use a resistance heater to warm a capsule of wax that expands and opens the valve.  This heating process takes about 30-45 seconds, and is what causes the delay in the closing of the second end switch.  Honestly, for a BB emmitter system, or really anything but an air:water HX, the few minutes of circulation with less than full temp water is unnoticeable and irrelevant.  Build the system the way you feel comfortable.

BTW - a "bad" zone valve head (actuator) can be changed out in 10 seconds without any plumbing to do.  To change out the zone valve body, you could add unions on either side of each one, but the failure rate on the valve bodies is so low, and their life so long, I am not convinced it's worth the expense.  I use the TACO 550 "gold" series, but if Steve has found issues with them, you might want to heed his warning.


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## heaterman (Jan 28, 2010)

_"Heaterman says they don’t make zone valves like they used to.  Changing a pump out is alot easier than a zone valve."_


Heaterman should qualify that statement a bit.  The Honeywell 8043 series is now made in......well let's just say south of the border. I replace lots of new heads while right alongside on the same manifold an ancient US made unit continues to function. I wouldn't install Honeywells in my own house or someone elses. The Taco EBV's are a tad noisy but are reliable so far, easy to wire and a piece of cake to change. Takes about 15 seconds. Those I would use if you want to go with ZV's.


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 28, 2010)

Hope I didn't step out of line, heaterman.  Never meant to put words in your mouth.  Your comment on quality of zone valves has resonated with me since we last spoke.  I've been comparing pumps versus zone valves ever since.  I assume the Jim's zone valves are the 570 series.  

When you say "a tad noisy" how loud is that?

I think I sort out a little detail or two each time someone replies to this topic.  Only a million other details to figure out.... hehe

Thanks


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## Jim K in PA (Jan 28, 2010)

I am not a fan of gratuitous product-bashing, but I concur with Heaterman's comments on Honeywell.  Overall their product line has deteriorated substantially.  I would not use their products if you have another reasonable option.

Reed - I did incorrectly identify the HM zone valves I use.  I am using the TACO 570 "gold" series (not the 550 series).  Gold is a good conductor of heat . . .  :lol:  ;-)


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## heaterman (Jan 28, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> Hope I didn't step out of line, heaterman.  Never meant to put words in your mouth.  Your comment on quality of zone valves has resonated with me since we last spoke.  I've been comparing pumps versus zone valves ever since.  I assume the Jim's zone valves are the 570 series.
> 
> When you say "a tad noisy" how loud is that?
> 
> ...



The Taco EBV's have a bit of gear noise when opening and closing but I really like the design for ease of use, maintenance and replacement. Depending on acoustics in the room and how the piping is mounted or supported you might hear a faint "whirring" from in you basement. In the event a head would fail (the valve itself rarely if ever does) you simply unplug the wiring connectors, twist off the head by rotating about 1/8 turn, twist on the new head and plug the connectors back in. You don't even need a screwdriver. It actually takes about as long to replace a head as it does to read what you just did here. It's power open and power close so it's a very positive foolproof mechanism.

If you are thinking of going with ZV's on the house side of your system, you have a tailor made application for a variable speed circ like the Grundfos or Wilo units that operate on Delta P. I probably wouldn't use the Taco Delta T circ myself. They will not ramp down as far as the Grunt or Wilo and power consumption is not much off a regular circ. In your application the Taco probably wouldn't provide any tangible benefit you could realize from an operational or long term $$.$$ standpoint.


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 28, 2010)

I'm suprised the EBV zone valves are a little cheaper than the 570 series.   From what I've learned about the different choices from you fellas, I'll go the EBV route.  I have enough pumps as it is.  Plus Jim gave me the basic overview on how to implement it.   Better to get threaded or sweat?  I'm thinking of cutting those balance valves out and putting the zone valves in their places. 

The Grundfos alpha should work great in the house.  Those zone valves create pressure drop when they open and close, which this fancy thing is supposed to detect.  Which I question, does this pump need hooked up to the end switch.  I'm not totally sure where this pump will be placed, yet.  Which is critical for it to detect that pressure drop.  If I put where current pump is, it would be pumping through the pressure tank, hence no detection of pressure drop?I'm not replacing it until I know where are the components are going.  

I can tell you aren't too high on the Taco Delta T circs, heaterman.  I'm thinking of going the route Jim did.  Put a brute 3 speed pump on the primary and keep it simple and less costly.  When the barn goes online, move from speed one to 2 to 3.  Russ's trouble with them is also a big turn off.  

Thanks guys for being the "Garn Oracles"


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## heaterman (Jan 28, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> I'm suprised the EBV zone valves are a little cheaper than the 570 series.   From what I've learned about the different choices from you fellas, I'll go the EBV route.  I have enough pumps as it is.  Plus Jim gave me the basic overview on how to implement it.   Better to get threaded or sweat?  I'm thinking of cutting those balance valves out and putting the zone valves in their places.
> 
> The Grundfos alpha should work great in the house.  Those zone valves create pressure drop when they open and close, which this fancy thing is supposed to detect.  Which I question, does this pump need hooked up to the end switch.  I'm not totally sure where this pump will be placed, yet.  Which is critical for it to detect that pressure drop.  If I put where current pump is, it would be pumping through the pressure tank, hence no detection of pressure drop?I'm not replacing it until I know where are the components are going.
> 
> ...



Threaded or sweat depends on your piping. I have never personally used any thing but a sweat style ZV and wasn't awarer that anyone makes them threaded. It would have no bearing on the operation of the valve in either case.

The circ will power up from the ZVC panel.  

I have hundreds of 15-58's in houses, doing exactly what you are proposing. Simple is good.

Pump away from the expansion tank. Always.


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 29, 2010)

[quote author="heaterman" date="1264719498.

Pump away from the expansion tank. Always.[/quote]


Think I can break this rule for simplicity sake, for 2 more months of heating season?  I could slide out the old pump, slide this one in simply.  BTW the pressure tank isn't working anyway.  I don't want to do any more plumbing in there than I have to.  One day shutdown, max.  3 zone valves installed, one pump, two closely spaced tees with a valve inbetween.  Work out the repiping of the oil boiler, dhw coil, pressure tank, air purgers etc 5 months from now.   I'm limited on space on the output side of boiler, plus I'm not sure how the tankless coil in the boiler is pumped to the dhw.  

What is everyone's favorite 2 heat/1cool programmable different weekend/weekday day/nite tstat.   I was looking at honeywell tstats, probably made in singapore.  Anyone have any preferences?


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## heaterman (Jan 29, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> [quote author="heaterman" date="1264719498.
> 
> Pump away from the expansion tank. Always.




Think I can break this rule for simplicity sake, for 2 more months of heating season?  I could slide out the old pump, slide this one in simply.  BTW the pressure tank isn't working anyway.  I don't want to do any more plumbing in there than I have to.  One day shutdown, max.  3 zone valves installed, one pump, two closely spaced tees with a valve inbetween.  Work out the repiping of the oil boiler, dhw coil, pressure tank, air purgers etc 5 months from now.   I'm limited on space on the output side of boiler, plus I'm not sure how the tankless coil in the boiler is pumped to the dhw.  

What is everyone's favorite 2 heat/1cool programmable different weekend/weekday day/nite tstat.   I was looking at honeywell tstats, probably made in singapore.  Anyone have any preferences?[/quote]



It's your pump and you can put it where ever you want, whenever you want my friend.  I_ do _like HW's vision Pro series 8000 series thermostats


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## Jim K in PA (Jan 29, 2010)

Russ - generally speaking the sweat version of the ZVs are going to be cheaper than the threaded version.  Like Steve, I have never used anything but sweat ZVs.

If I did not already have all the 570 series HM zone valves I needed, I would have gone with the new capacitor type EBVs from TACO.  The HM ZV has the same 1/8 turn power head change out, with the additional need to disconnect the wires under the screw terminals first.  The new EBVs are dead simple, and will be using them from here out for my future piping setups.


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 29, 2010)

Those 8000s are niiice!  Touch screen, 7 day programmable 2 hot 1 cool.   Oh baby!  5 year warranty is nice.  Being able to set the temperatures in the different circuits at different times has to save fuel!  They are 3 times more expensive but I'd rather cut less wood than go the cheapie route!

Got a pretty hefty shopping list here.  Grundfos alpha 15-55, 3 taco EBV,  ZVC, 3 HW vision pro 8000 T stats. For the house.

On primary manifold looks like UPS43-44FC, 3-Speed Circulator Pump for primary manifold.  The heat exchanger just showed up.  Have to decide which pump to pump from secondary to hx then pump from hx to house.  The literature doesn't have a headloss for the hx.  Something else to find out. 

Still seems miles to the finish line...


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 29, 2010)

Haha jim same post time almost!  Great to get both you and steve to agree on the "best zone valve."  Bet that Garn is working hard this week.  Got down to 11 here last nite!  Brrr.


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## heaterman (Jan 30, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> Those 8000s are niiice!  Touch screen, 7 day programmable 2 hot 1 cool.   Oh baby!  5 year warranty is nice.  Being able to set the temperatures in the different circuits at different times has to save fuel!  They are 3 times more expensive but I'd rather cut less wood than go the cheapie route!
> 
> Got a pretty hefty shopping list here.  Grundfos alpha 15-55, 3 taco EBV,  ZVC, 3 HW vision pro 8000 T stats. For the house.
> 
> ...



Reed, that 43-44 is a high GPM circ that doesn't like to really be much over 10' of head. Ideally, and this would be on speed 3, that circ would be sitting in the middle of its curve at about 30GPM and around 6' of head. Do you have a load that needs that much flow and 2" piping to carry it?


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 30, 2010)

Steve,  I guess I just threw the idea for the 43-44 out there.  To maximize use of the 70 plate exchanger for house/garage that's 140,000 btu. Or 14 GPM at 20 delta T.  

The barn is the big question mark.   I have NO IDEA what type of heatloss estimate to put on this barn.  Here's a description of the barn and my current plan for it.  The building is a 60x120.  It's uninsulated at the moment.    One section of the barn, 10x60 has concrete already there.  No option for radiant for this area.  I'm planning on walling it off, insulating and putting a couple forced air water/air exchangers for it.  Or putting a storage tank tank in, with coils inside it.  Fill it with glycol or antifreeze.  I suspect it would act like a radiator if I left it uninsulated and eliminate the need for the forced air units.  So this area of the barn I would like to keep around 45 when I'm not working out there.

For the remainder of the building, I want to pour concrete and put in radiant.  A 50x70 area with a insulated curtain to seperate the storage side of the barn.  This will be the radiant section.  Something I won't want to heat 24/7.  I'm expecting it will be in primetime use Feb-Mar so the rest of the time it will be off.  I can work comfortably if its over 50.  

I want to be careful in selecting these pumps.  I will be upset with myself if I undersize the pump when I go to do the barn.  This is why I thought the Taco 0012 VDT pump made sense.  Correct me if I'm wrong, cause I probably am.

Always curious....


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## heaterman (Jan 30, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> Steve,  I guess I just threw the idea for the 43-44 out there.  To maximize use of the 70 plate exchanger for house/garage that's 140,000 btu. Or 14 GPM at 20 delta T.
> 
> The barn is the big question mark.   I have NO IDEA what type of heatloss estimate to put on this barn.  Here's a description of the barn and my current plan for it.  The building is a 60x120.  It's uninsulated at the moment.    One section of the barn, 10x60 has concrete already there.  No option for radiant for this area.  I'm planning on walling it off, insulating and putting a couple forced air water/air exchangers for it.  Or putting a storage tank tank in, with coils inside it.  Fill it with glycol or antifreeze.  I suspect it would act like a radiator if I left it uninsulated and eliminate the need for the forced air units.  So this area of the barn I would like to keep around 45 when I'm not working out there.
> 
> ...



Getting to the barn thing................If you are dealing with any uninsulated area the heat loss will be high for sure, but what you are left with boils down to how air tight it is. I've been in places with no or very minimal insulation that were 3-4000 sq ft and while the btu requirement to keep them at 50-60* was high, it was do-able. Others that were maybe half that size and drafty are impossible to heat without btu inputs in the 7 figure range. You may as well not try. My SIL has a 40x80 pole barn with good overhead doors, a moderately insulated ceiling (8" blown) and only 1/2 of foam on the sides. His Garn and associated piping will keep the place between 25-40* depending on the weather. I'd guess he's losing maybe 25,000-30,000 from his Garn enclosure, piping and blower discharge air. To break it down another way, he's maintaining about a 35* temp differential from outdoor with his heat loss from the Garn. 
   The other kid has an Econoburn in a 30 x 40 garage with ventilated eaves and nothing but 1/2" celotex and a layer of plywood between the shingles and the rafters. He has a 75,000 btu Modine hung in there and if the wind blows you can hardly raise the temp 15* in the building with it running non stop. On a calm day it will struggle to boost the temp much past 30* above outdoor ambient.

So.....10x60 insulated to a decent level assuming a 14' ceiling height................Mmmmmmm figure a load of 40 btu/sq ft and you'll be close.  50 x 70 insulated but with one side "open" due to the curtain, I'm thinking in the range of 55/sq ft to get you 40* temp rise from outside.


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 31, 2010)

My goal of this entire project is to be energy efficient as possible.  If that means spending 10,000 on insulation for the barn, that's what I will do.  It will pay me back.  With your numbers, on a 60x70 total area, at 55 per square foot is 231,000 BTU.  Or 23.1 GPM at 20 Delta T.   With the house, barn, garage thats 37 GPM at 20 Delta T.  Hopefully with some creative plumbing (eliminating baseboards)  I can widen the delta T and lower the GPM for the system as a whole.   

My barn has sliding doors and they could easily be insulated. 2x4 framing.    I would like to closed cell foam on the whole barn.  No need for wall covering other than fire areas.  Heard about a farmer who used open celled and didn't cover the walls.  They caught it on fire with a torch and burned the building up around them so fast, they had to drive their 4x4 tractor through the wall!   I do alot of torching and welding but that area will be sheetmetaled.  
I'm pretty sure this barn will need 2 supply and 2 returns.  I want to heat up warm water for washing the semi.  This salt irritates me and 200 per wash upsets me.  That's the reason for 70 ft of length.  From ground to perlons I'd say it's 20 feet.  I'll have to excavate down pretty deep to get room for foundation, foam board and a 6 inch pad.  

Through the barn I also want to supply two bin fans.  I bought a small bin for 50 bucks.  I'm attempting to dry soybeans.  Soybeans are very high in oil content, making them difficult to dry.  However, they don't like being dried at high temperature.  Perfect scenerio for an water to air exchanger.  I'd like to be able to harvest wetter beans.  Dry beans 13% moisture and below shatter at the sickle bar and at the auger.  They can drop in moisture in the field by as much as 3 % points in a day.  You can't harvest 1k acres in a day.  Hence the need to dry them.  The ambient is generally above 60, so the system can concentrate it's efforts to drying soybeans.  I bought a small bin for 50 bucks to test this on.   

I think allowing 240,000 btus for the barn would also cover the drying needs.  I recall water to air exchangers like 160 degree water.  I'd like to install a Garn at my Dads house.  Use a garn to heat his house, shop and dry corn.  We burned 15,000 gallons of propane drying corn.  If a Garn could supplement and do half the heating, every farmer with a barn house and grain dryer will be lining up for one of these things.

Sorry for the long post, but it all justifies getting a Garn.


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## Jim K in PA (Jan 31, 2010)

To be fair, I chose the 43-44 for my primary based on my projected loads for my house, garage, wood shop and a small greenhouse.  My 43-44 is way overkill right now with just the house and partial garage load.  On low I rarely see delta T above 10-12 degrees on the primary.  My primary loop is 1.5", 7 elbows, and about 30' of pipe total.  Not too much head loss.  My pump selections were made without the benefit of Steve's input, and without as much knowledge as I have now.  I dont regret my choice, but your setup and loads are different than mine, and I defer to Steve's greater experience.


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## heaterman (Jan 31, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> My goal of this entire project is to be energy efficient as possible.  If that means spending 10,000 on insulation for the barn, that's what I will do.  It will pay me back.  With your numbers, on a 60x70 total area, at 55 per square foot is 231,000 BTU.  Or 23.1 GPM at 20 Delta T.   With the house, barn, garage thats 37 GPM at 20 Delta T.  Hopefully with some creative plumbing (eliminating baseboards)  I can widen the delta T and lower the GPM for the system as a whole.
> 
> My barn has sliding doors and they could easily be insulated. 2x4 framing.    I would like to closed cell foam on the whole barn.  No need for wall covering other than fire areas.  Heard about a farmer who used open celled and didn't cover the walls.  They caught it on fire with a torch and burned the building up around them so fast, they had to drive their 4x4 tractor through the wall!   I do alot of torching and welding but that area will be sheetmetaled.
> I'm pretty sure this barn will need 2 supply and 2 returns.  I want to heat up warm water for washing the semi.  This salt irritates me and 200 per wash upsets me.  That's the reason for 70 ft of length.  From ground to perlons I'd say it's 20 feet.  I'll have to excavate down pretty deep to get room for foundation, foam board and a 6 inch pad.
> ...




Insulation is everything Reed. If you get that 4200 sq ft area up to R-25 in the walls (easy to do with pole construction) get the ceiling to even an R-30, you can get that heat loss down to half or around 25/ sq ft. That will make a huge difference in not only the size and type of emitters you can use but also piping and circulator sizing. You'll also have more btu's available for drying the beans. I think your primary goal at this point would be to settle on how you are going to insulate the building and what values you are going to wind up with, then plan your heating system accordingly. If you size everything proportionally to the existing load you will have everything way oversized at the point in time that you do get it insulated.  Kind of a chicken and egg thing..............


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 31, 2010)

4200 sq ft at 25 btu per sq foot is 105,000 btu or 10.5 GPM.  One set of 1.25 pex would do the trick.  So worst case I'm 23.1 barn plus 14.0 house/garage.  Or at the minimum once I get insulation 10.5+10.0= 20.5 GPM.  37 GPM to 20.5 is a pretty wide range.  All ranges of the Grundfos 43-44.  The  Taco 0012VDT pump also can handle this easliy.  Like Jim, my headloss will be low too.  7 Elbows, 16 ft of 2", 16 of 1.5".  One swingline 1.5" check valve.  The pump will be about even with bottom of the tank.  

Like Jim, either pump I put on my primary will probably be grossly oversized.  I hate the idea of rebuying pumps to adapt to the next phase of the plan.  Hope I can get a pump picked out that can play "catch all" scenerios.


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## Gooserider (Jan 31, 2010)

One thing you said that raised a bit of a "red flag" in my mind, was that you sounded like you only wanted to heat some or all the space intermittently...  This is not a good match to radiant slab, as slabs are SLOOOW to respond...  They are great once hot, but take a while to get there, so unless you are really good at future planning, you will be spending a lot of time in the cold waiting for the slab to warm up, and then wasting a lot of heat as the slab cools back down after you've gone away again...

I'd certainly put tubing in anyplace I was pouring concrete, just because plans change, and it's cheap "futureproofing", but I wouldn't use infloor radiant for intermittent heat.  I'd want to use either Modine style forced air units, or maybe flat panels, in order to get heat into the space faster on demand...  

Where the radiant might work is in combination with one of the other methods is if you want to have a steady "base" temperature, and then pop it up higher on demand...  Say keep the space at 35°F unless working in it, when you want it at 55°F.  In that case I'd maybe use the radiant floor for the steady load, and modines or flat panels for the bump up.

If I'm misreading what you intended, don't worry about it...

Gooserider


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 31, 2010)

Gooserider,

You are absolutely right.  I completely understand that the radiant is slow to respond.  My thought was, on the shop side (forced air units) I can heat it up anytime I need to work.  The big shop area (radiant) will have to be planned ahead when I want to work out there.  Once I get it up to temp, there it shall stay until all spring prep work is done.  Probably won't use the slab area until feb-mar.  I don't know what type of temp rise you can get per day, but I expect I would have to start dumping btus in there in January to get up to temp.

This is why I thought glycol or antifreeze would be a good fit.  Need an HX, anyway.  If I can get the heatloss under 100k, I might keep it above 45 year round.

Say it's in the 20-30s outside, I insulate up to r-25 or r-30.  What type of temperature raise per day can you expect out of the radiant?


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## Gooserider (Jan 31, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> Gooserider,
> 
> You are absolutely right.  I completely understand that the radiant is slow to respond.  My thought was, on the shop side (forced air units) I can heat it up anytime I need to work.  The big shop area (radiant) will have to be planned ahead when I want to work out there.  Once I get it up to temp, there it shall stay until all spring prep work is done.  Probably won't use the slab area until feb-mar.  I don't know what type of temp rise you can get per day, but I expect I would have to start dumping btus in there in January to get up to temp.
> 
> ...


Not really sure, and I suspect that might be the "wrong question", or at least "insufficient data" - The question will be how many BTU/hr you can dump into the slab, vs. the heat loss of the slab itself.  It will be critical to minimize the losses from the slab to the ground, I suspect that while the building insulation is important, the slab will matter more...  

You will need to think about tube spacing, size, slab thickness, etc...  As I understand your app, you will be bringing in heavy equipment on the slab, so you are going to have a very thick and heavy duty structure that will have a LOT of thermal "inertia"  Obviously need to pump more BTU/hr into the slab than it is losing to the ground and air - the "surplus" is what raises your temperature.  My recollection is that cured concrete will take about 1/2 BTU to raise a pound one degree - essentially it's the same equation as with water, just the ratio changes...  I would imagine that you can work out how many pounds of concrete will be in your slab, and go from there....

Since I don't have an app that fits into your description, I haven't paid a lot of attention to them, but I know that Siegenthaler has had a fair number of articles in his P&M magazine tech column on planning radiant floor for large buildings, including some equipment garages and factory type setups.  Might be worth reading, especially some of his discussions on "thermal injection" and other distribution techniques.

Gooserider


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## RowCropRenegade (Feb 1, 2010)

Ah yes, another dimension of math to figure on.  I don't expect the cement pad will be thicker than 6 inches.  Will ban loaded semi's from entering the barn (over 80,000lbs).  The semi is probably the heaviest /sq inch, all another machinery have wide tires, displacing their weights.  Have to do some digging around to see the weight of concrete per inch.  I expect I will use 2" XPS board under the whole thing.  Will require serious excavation.  Is R-10 enough under a floor?  I'll check into that Siegenthaler.  Thanks for the good info.

I cut half a cord of shagbark hickory today.  It fell across the neighbors driveway this morning.  Nice straight tree, my first hickory.  I'm overrun with maple/ash so I need some really good stuff.


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## heaterman (Feb 1, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> Ah yes, another dimension of math to figure on.  I don't expect the cement pad will be thicker than 6 inches.  Will ban loaded semi's from entering the barn (over 80,000lbs).  The semi is probably the heaviest /sq inch, all another machinery have wide tires, displacing their weights.  Have to do some digging around to see the weight of concrete per inch.  I expect I will use 2" XPS board under the whole thing.  Will require serious excavation.  Is R-10 enough under a floor?  I'll check into that Siegenthaler.  Thanks for the good info.
> 
> I cut half a cord of shagbark hickory today.  It fell across the neighbors driveway this morning.  Nice straight tree, my first hickory.  I'm overrun with maple/ash so I need some really good stuff.



Six inch would be plenty and if you check with a concrete company I'll bet you'll find 4" will do nicely. We did some gas piping work in a die shop addition (100x200') and they went with 6" because some of the dies they hauled in there weighed over 80 TONS. The GC on the job said they could have went with a heavy mix of 4" but the cost was nearly the same so the owner went 6. 

I have found the key to concrete as well as the foam insulation holding up is how well the subsurface it prepared and compacted. I can only recall one job where we felt we had to use high compression foam, mostly due to the cement crew I knew we'd be working with on it. While it's true that more insulation under the floor is better all you really have to do is provide greater R-value under the cement than the cement itself generates. Which is a factor of 1/inch.  So a 4" slab has an R-value of 4 and so on. We typically use 1-1/2" foam but pay special attention to insulating the edges. That's the area most often ignored and can be the area of highest heat loss.

BTW.......nothing wrong with maple and ash. The Garn will love it.


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## RowCropRenegade (Feb 1, 2010)

I needed a couple days off from working on the Garn.  I get nervous cutting holes in my nice new siding/sheetmetal.  So I mull over it a couple days before I build up the courage to tackle it.  That day is tomorrow.  I'll finish the air intake/flue and finalize rear "garn sweater".  Then start putting that manifold together, pics tomorrow nite!

I think Jim nailed it on the primary circ.  The Brute Grunfos UPS43-44 FC on the primary.  A tad oversized for now, perfect for later.  Need to calculate headloss on it before I order one.

First secondary pump to hx prob a 26-99 3 speed.  Then from hx to house another 26-99 3 speed.  Of course the shining star will be the Alpha 15-55 in the house taking care of the rest.  I might be able to get away with a 15-55 from primary to hx.  

Glad it will like maple.  We have some 175 year plus maples that are literally falling apart.  Sad.  It's been decided they must come down before they fall on someone or a building.  Will take me weeks to cut them all up.  We are going to drop two dead oaks tomorrow.  Big trees.  They are hanging over the road.  Probably 3 or 4 cord a tree.  Should be interesting.


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## Jim K in PA (Feb 1, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> Glad it will like maple.  We have some 175 year plus maples that are literally falling apart.  Sad.  It's been decided they must come down before they fall on someone or a building.  Will take me weeks to cut them all up.  We are going to drop two dead oaks tomorrow.  Big trees.  They are hanging over the road.  Probably 3 or 4 cord a tree.  Should be interesting.



I burn ALL species of wood in my 2000.  It loves any kind of DRY wood.  The Ash and maple will season much faster than any kind of oak.  It takes a couple of years to properly season oak down to below 30% MC.  Ash will be ready in 6 months, maple maybe 8-12, depending on species and conditions.  If you have some big, straight 10-12' long trunks of white oak, save them for the mill.  

BTW - with all due respect, I think you are a bit optimistic on the yield.  I have yet to see the tree that bucks and splits to much more than a real cord (4x4x8 - 128 cu ft).  Not sure I would want to tackle the one that did!  Get those oaks bucked and split ASAP, so that you can use them for the 2011-2012 season.  I like my oak splits down to 3-6".  I split my ash to 4-8", and my hemlock & EWP 8-10".

BTW - I got a Sonin MM for Christmas.  It helps me get a grip on MC beyond "feel".  The oak I am burning now was down for years, but just bucked/split about 18 mos ago.  Outside tests to 13%, but split it again and the interior tests to 28%.  Right on the ragged edge, and no puffing.  I mix it with real dry maple and pine.


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## RowCropRenegade (Feb 1, 2010)

I guarantee the last tree we dropped across the road has at least 3 cords.  Took me an hour and half to cut the notch.  These were 3 big red oaks.  6.5 foot diameter by 150 ft tall.  If I don't get 3 out of it, I'll eat my hat. :0  They were standing dead for 3 or 4 years.  Very reason the backhoe was there to help.  They were actually solid and should be enough wood for 2 years from now.   I've been worried about them falling across the road, when I don't have time to cut them.  So I closed the road down and we took care of 3 out of the 6.  Life is good! 

I have a cheapy moisture tester, would love to have that Sonin you have.  I intend on getting them cut and split soon but it's not a priority.  6 cords of ash, 6 cords of silver maple are lined up ahead of the oak.  How about black locust?  It dry out pretty fast?  They took down the black locust at moms this weekend.  It was 170 years old, same as the house.  If it doesn't yield 4 cords, I'll be suprised.  It's that big!

Garn sat lonely by itself today, did manage to cut my holes and dry fit the air intake/flue.  A quagmire to determine the assembly order.  I'll get it after we go cut an Maple up for an older fella.  He can't afford 700 bucks for the tree service to cut it down/up.  My price is good, free.  Can't stand the elderly being taken advantage of, plus I like your saying, I'm good for wood....but always looking for more!


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## heaterman (Feb 1, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> I guarantee the last tree we dropped across the road has at least 3 cords.  Took me an hour and half to cut the notch.  These were 3 big red oaks.  6.5 foot diameter by 150 ft tall.  If I don't get 3 out of it, I'll eat my hat. :0  They were standing dead for 3 or 4 years.  Very reason the backhoe was there to help.  They were actually solid and should be enough wood for 2 years from now.   I've been worried about them falling across the road, when I don't have time to cut them.  So I closed the road down and we took care of 3 out of the 6.  Life is good!
> 
> I have a cheapy moisture tester, would love to have that Sonin you have.  I intend on getting them cut and split soon but it's not a priority.  6 cords of ash, 6 cords of silver maple are lined up ahead of the oak.  How about black locust?  It dry out pretty fast?  They took down the black locust at moms this weekend.  It was 170 years old, same as the house.  If it doesn't yield 4 cords, I'll be suprised.  It's that big!
> 
> Garn sat lonely by itself today, did manage to cut my holes and dry fit the air intake/flue.  A quagmire to determine the assembly order.  I'll get it after we go cut an Maple up for an older fella.  He can't afford 700 bucks for the tree service to cut it down/up.  My price is good, free.  Can't stand the elderly being taken advantage of, plus I like your saying, I'm good for wood....but always looking for more!



Intake tip.........

We install the hood and reducer, cut a piece of 24 gauge galvanized stove pipe about an inch short, insert it and then use what is called a drawband to connect the two ends. A drawband sould be considered a "union" for stove pipe. After the drawband is in place we screw it and tape all the joints to eliminate any air leakage.


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## Gooserider (Feb 1, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> I guarantee the last tree we dropped across the road has at least 3 cords.  Took me an hour and half to cut the notch.  These were 3 big red oaks.  6.5 foot diameter by 150 ft tall.  If I don't get 3 out of it, I'll eat my hat. :0  They were standing dead for 3 or 4 years.  Very reason the backhoe was there to help.  They were actually solid and should be enough wood for 2 years from now.   I've been worried about them falling across the road, when I don't have time to cut them.  So I closed the road down and we took care of 3 out of the 6.  Life is good!
> 
> I have a cheapy moisture tester, would love to have that Sonin you have.  I intend on getting them cut and split soon but it's not a priority.  6 cords of ash, 6 cords of silver maple are lined up ahead of the oak.  How about black locust?  It dry out pretty fast?  They took down the black locust at moms this weekend.  It was 170 years old, same as the house.  If it doesn't yield 4 cords, I'll be suprised.  It's that big!
> 
> Garn sat lonely by itself today, did manage to cut my holes and dry fit the air intake/flue.  A quagmire to determine the assembly order.  I'll get it after we go cut an Maple up for an older fella.  He can't afford 700 bucks for the tree service to cut it down/up.  My price is good, free.  Can't stand the elderly being taken advantage of, plus I like your saying, I'm good for wood....but always looking for more!



Locust is reportedly another of the fantastic burning woods, heavy, dense, makes lots of heat, and is up on the top of most all the firewood value charts, but it has the downside of being another slow drying wood - figure it as being about the same as oak.

Gooserider


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## RowCropRenegade (Feb 2, 2010)

Gooserider,

My wood cutting friends are always crowing about hickory and locust.   I've yet to burn anything, so I have nothing to judge any of the woods yet.   Thanks for the clarification of the locust, it will be sorted into the 2 year class.

Steve,

The dry fit on my air intake is actually pretty solid.  I went to the "tin man" and he cut a piece of 7" pipe for me.  The outside intake hood slides about a foot inside it, of course the screws on the outside hold it all tight.  I have to silicon the reducer on the inside of the garn, didn't want to cut the outside board to accomodate room to silicon on the outside.  Is tape preferred over the silicon?

I wasn't totally impressed with my flue, however.  It says in the manual to screw it to the garn, but doesn't say about screwing the 2 ft piece to the next 2 ft piece.  It also kinda rests on the wall thimble.  It extends 20 inches beyond the building.  Would be cool if they bolted together with a cevlar (sp) seal.  Something stout.  I do have the high temp silicon.  I will get back at it tomorrow afternoon. 

Thanks


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## heaterman (Feb 2, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> Gooserider,
> 
> My wood cutting friends are always crowing about hickory and locust.   I've yet to burn anything, so I have nothing to judge any of the woods yet.   Thanks for the clarification of the locust, it will be sorted into the 2 year class.
> 
> ...



Sounds good. You just want to get a seal with good integrity and stay that way.

The vent pipe is twist lock as you know so you don't have to worry about it coming apart. If you want to seal up the joint permanently, put a good bead of the silicone in between the two. It's OK if it rests on the wall thimble and a little downward pitch is not a bad thing either. it keeps any condensation running out of the unit.


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## RowCropRenegade (Feb 2, 2010)

I figured they stiftened up after they were twisted together.  I didn't want to wear them so I haven't twisted them yet.  It is angling downward, by about 10 degrees.  Thanks for verifying what I'm seeing here.  I will say it looks very nice and neat back in there.


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## leaddog (Feb 2, 2010)

In reading this thread I've been wondering if in some of these aplications if you could save on some of the sizes of hx, pumps, and piping if you would use a 500gal propane tank for storage at the point of use. By putting the extra storage at the point of use you could use smaller pipe, pumps and if you welded in cross piping in the tank eliminate the hx as the tank would be the hx. If useing in a slab with antifreeze you could keep the tank hot and would have the btu's ready to be used. Insulating the tank would be easy.
I would think a person could also maybe get by with a smaller garn as you would have more storage at the point of use. All of this could have a large savings on a big install and with these big installs It looks like you get into some big bucks. Used propane tanks are very cheap for storage when you can find them and make good storage. Welding in cross pipes for a hx would be very doable or you could put in a large flange and bolt in a hx inside. You could also maybe elliminate a mixing valve for radiaint applications as you could control the tank temp with an auquastat and have enough volume to run it.
Just some thoughts I've had on these garn applications. I really do like them and can see so many places they should be used.
leaddog


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## RowCropRenegade (Feb 2, 2010)

Leaddog,

Glad you have been following along.  I really wanted this body of work to be open to everyone, we all can learn something from each other.  I really appreciate hearth.com and it's members.

I hinted an idea similiar to yours in one of my previous posts.  This makes alot of sense for my application in the barn/drying bins.  This "stand by tank" can be kept at low temps when it's inactive down in the barn.  I can maintain temp in transmission line from primary manifold to that stand-by tank for freeze protection.  It probably wouldn't take long to heat it up, considering I got a 2000 gallon behemouth working upstream from it.  Under what pressure's are these propane tanks at?  Dad will need some convincing for him to allow me to put a pressurized tank in the barn.  He brings up steam engines exploding every time we talk about it.  I can buy used anhydrous ammonia tanks on a running gear cheap.  I think they are 1500 gals.  Maybe a bit oversized?  A question about the hx aspect of the stand by tank.  Since the garn water will be going through a coil in the standby tank, it acts like an hx since the two never touch?  

I cut my arm on the last piece of sheetmetal I handled.  Blood all over the flue.  I'm patched up and have something to think about as I wrap up the rear of the Garn.  Got about a cord of silver maple bucked and transported home.  I've had my fill of wood cutting and sheet metal too.  Pics tonite for sure!


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## Gooserider (Feb 2, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> Leaddog,
> 
> Glad you have been following along.  I really wanted this body of work to be open to everyone, we all can learn something from each other.  I really appreciate hearth.com and it's members.
> 
> ...



I know I've seen discussion of using anhydrous ammonia tanks in the past, not sure what pressure they are tested at, but thought they were only around 500 gallons - though that might depend on the tank.  Propane tanks when used for propane are good for at least 200-250psi working pressure, and I think they are tested at 600psi or thereabouts - WAY more than a hydronic application...  That said, I see no harm in putting a PRV on one, especially if there is ANY way that it could be isolated from the rest of the system - probably way overkill, but PRV's are pretty cheap...  

Hope your arm heals up soon, but remember to do a good job of cleaning up the leakage - blood can be quite corrosive and you don't want to damage the flue piping after it got a piece of you...  

Gooserider


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## leaddog (Feb 3, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> Leaddog,
> 
> Glad you have been following along.  I really wanted this body of work to be open to everyone, we all can learn something from each other.  I really appreciate hearth.com and it's members.
> 
> I hinted an idea similiar to yours in one of my previous posts.  This makes alot of sense for my application in the barn/drying bins.  This "stand by tank" can be kept at low temps when it's inactive down in the barn.  I can maintain temp in transmission line from primary manifold to that stand-by tank for freeze protection.  It probably wouldn't take long to heat it up, considering I got a 2000 gallon behemouth working upstream from it.  Under what pressure's are these propane tanks at?  Dad will need some convincing for him to allow me to put a pressurized tank in the barn.  He brings up steam engines exploding every time we talk about it.  I can buy used anhydrous ammonia tanks on a running gear cheap.  I think they are 1500 gals.  Maybe a bit oversized?  A question about the hx aspect of the stand by tank.  Since the garn water will be going through a coil in the standby tank, it acts like an hx since the two never touch?  !



Your anhydrous tank is like a propane tank. Pressure tested at I think over 600psi. ALSO in your appication there wouldn't be the problem that they had with steem engines as you would never beable to input any temp over 212*.  YOUr input temp is coming from the garn and as that is a open system you can't get over boiling. Steam engines blew because they had supperheated water under presure and had a sudden drop in pressure causeing the water to flash into steam. Just breaking off a fitting lowering the pressure rapidly when you have water temp at 260* and you will turn the water into instant steam and you will blow things, 
I think I would put in cross pipes in your tank with them manafolded at the ends to make your hx. by drilling holes in the ends and running the pipes through and welding in place, and welding into the manafold. Your garn water would go into the pipes heating the tank which you could then have as a closed system. You would need an expansion tank but could use a 100gal or so propane tank as I've shown in other threads.
I don't know what kind of heat loads you are talking when drying beans but I think big, so no 1500gal isn't big at all and would help the garn keep up. I also don't know what kind of setup your drying bins are but you might just beable to incorporate the tank as part of the heat transfer instead of having to insulate it???????  If you are requiring a large load you won't be able to save on pipe or pump size in that application but if you would put one in your shop for the radiant floor you might. By being able to pump from the garn to a tank you wouldn't have to pump as many gpm as you would just pump longer and would satify your heat load from the tank and that wouldn't run constant therefore you would be recharging the tank. That would require smaller pumps, lines, valves, etc helping to keep cost down.
leaddog


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## RowCropRenegade (Feb 3, 2010)

Gooserider, I managed to get the blood cleaned up and the flue installed.   I had no idea blood can by corrosive, very interesting.  I have to finish siliconing all the joints but it's pretty much done.  I think a pressure relief valve is a good thing for anything under pressure.

Leaddog,  The tank radiating off heat for the drying bins might be a possibility. but would require some serious duct work.   It might heat the closed in side of the shop, though.   The PRV will satisfy my Dads concerns.  I can't even guess how many btu/hour I'll need for this drying ap.  It seems like light years away.  I can visualize what you describe on the stand by tank.  I'm up for anything to keep the piping cost down.  I'd rather dump the cash into concrete and insulation.  This is a project I'll be into right after I get phase one on it's feet.

The only thing I don't like about my design is that I have 4 pumps, 3 zone valves and 3 out of the 4 are different types of pumps.  This isn't a good thing.  As it stands at this moment, it's the 43-44 on the primary.  The 26-99 on secondary to hx and 26-99 from hx to house.  Then the alpha on the house.  Maybe I should toss the alpha and put another 26-99 in the house.  Or toss the 26-99s and get 3 alphas.  Alphas a little cheaper, too.

I haven't found a good head calcutor I can get along with very well.  Any good references for determining head/pump sizing?  I have 80% of the piping done so the lengths and elbows are known.


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## Gooserider (Feb 3, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> Gooserider, I managed to get the blood cleaned up and the flue installed.   I had no idea blood can by corrosive, very interesting.  I have to finish siliconing all the joints but it's pretty much done.  I think a pressure relief valve is a good thing for anything under pressure.
> 
> Leaddog,  The tank radiating off heat for the drying bins might be a possibility. but would require some serious duct work.   It might heat the closed in side of the shop, though.   The PRV will satisfy my Dads concerns.  I can't even guess how many btu/hour I'll need for this drying ap.  It seems like light years away.  I can visualize what you describe on the stand by tank.  I'm up for anything to keep the piping cost down.  I'd rather dump the cash into concrete and insulation.  This is a project I'll be into right after I get phase one on it's feet.
> 
> ...



I've heard the "blood as corrosive" thing from some of the firearm and other weapons enthusiast folks, especially in reference to anything made from steel...  Makes sense to me, as with blood you have a salt solution with lots of other stuff in it that would tend to help penetrate any oils on the metal surface, etc...

On the software stuff - Have you tried looking at the Taco "Flow-Pro" team site - they have some free download apps that are supposed to be pretty good at plotting out everything in your project (with the recommended Taco products of course...) Haven't tried them myself as they are "Windows only" and last time I tried, didn't want to run under WINE on my Linux box.  The site looks like they want dealers to download the software, but they didn't do any validation other than making you fill out a contact info form...

Gooserider


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## RowCropRenegade (Feb 3, 2010)

I'll try out those Flow-Pros.  Found a chart that should help determine the total head.  I'm thinking I'm pretty close on my numbers.  I'm going to rework them tonite.

Here is the promised pics, a few days late.


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## Jim K in PA (Feb 4, 2010)

Looks good Reed.  Please keep the bodily fluids out of the plumbing from now on, 'kay?

I am going to suggest you put another 24" or so of 6" single wall flue pipe on the double wall before you put the elbow on.  I ran mine last year like you have yours.  I wound up with a fair amount of soot on the side of the GARN shed.  Adding a 24" section keeps the discharge just far enough away to keep the soot off the wall.  You only get particulates for the first 5 minutes, and then the last 15 minutes or so, but it's enough to soot up the wall if the outlet is too close.


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## deerhntr (Feb 5, 2010)

Jim K in PA said:
			
		

> I am going to suggest you put another 24" or so of 6" single wall flue pipe on the double wall before you put the elbow on.  I ran mine last year like you have yours.  I wound up with a fair amount of soot on the side of the GARN shed.  Adding a 24" section keeps the discharge just far enough away to keep the soot off the wall.  You only get particulates for the first 5 minutes, and then the last 15 minutes or so, but it's enough to soot up the wall if the outlet is too close.



I agree with Jim on the soot on the shed wall. Actually I was surprised of this result. But , my feeling is that going vertical is the better/cleaner solution. I have found I just do not like the ground level emissions. No matter how good the burn, there is still some ground level exhaust with the horizontal flue. After the season is over, I plan to go vertical. My wife wants to hang clothes out on the line without them coming in with the smell of a wood burner. If I had it to do over, I would have gotten the vertical flue package. I'm not real crazy about the fly ash blowing out into a 55gal drum either.

Something to think about.

Oh, BTW, I really like the Heaterman "Sweater". Very Clean looking!


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## RowCropRenegade (Feb 5, 2010)

The picture may be a bit deceiving, Jim.  They are 2, 2 foot sections.  The second section sticks out over 20" from the wall.  The pic makes it look like it's 4 or 5 inches.  The garn manual said at least 18 inches and I have that by 2 inches.  Not enough?  You can see the 2nd section start right before it hits the wall thimble.  (the fireproof silicon sticks out)  I'm hoping I can keep my blood to myself, no guarantees!  

Russ I'm suprised you don't like the horizontal flue.  I expect it will cost a pretty penny to have a vertical flue.  Maybe you should look into a wood boiler clothes drier! lol.  I do have fuel tanks down wind of my flue.  I, too, may have to go vertical if the fly ash looks dangerous.  I feel like buying the heaterman garn sweater was the best decision I made.  It opened access to the Garn 360 degrees and prevented having to build the front wall.  I love having the access, plus it looks very professional.  Don't tell heaterman, but I would have probably paid more for it.  haha 

Insured the Garn today.  Insurance used this thread to see my set up.  They were happy.  Non pressurized was the key words they said cheapened the coverage so much.  Insured 30k for 75 bucks a year!   I celebrated by trying to burn the building down.  Haha just kidding Mr. Adjuster.  I also hired a hydronics designer to come up and help me order pumps, discuss the big barn and help do the switchover in the oil boiler room.  I decided I needed someone physically here to go over the math with me.  

On a sad note, ThisWarmHouse office burned up recently.  They sold this Garn to me and have also been helping me to great lengths during this process.  I hold them in high regards and hope for their business speedy recovery.


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## deerhntr (Feb 5, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> On a sad note, ThisWarmHouse office burned up recently.  They sold this Garn to me and have also been helping me to great lengths during this process.  I hold them in high regards and hope for their business speedy recovery.



Wow! That is some bad news. I also purchased my Garn through them. Hopefully, everyone is O.K., and they will be able to get back up and running  soon.


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## Jim K in PA (Feb 5, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> The picture may be a bit deceiving, Jim.  They are 2, 2 foot sections.  The second section sticks out over 20" from the wall.  The pic makes it look like it's 4 or 5 inches.  The garn manual said at least 18 inches and I have that by 2 inches.  Not enough?  You can see the 2nd section start right before it hits the wall thimble.  (the fireproof silicon sticks out)  I'm hoping I can keep my blood to myself, no guarantees!



Ah.  OK, then it may be fine.  A lot depends on the wind pattern adn airflow around your building.  My flue discharges on a wall that faces NNE, so when the Nor'easters start blowin', exhaust is pushed back against the wall.  My discharge is about 36" from the walll now.



> Russ I'm suprised you don't like the horizontal flue.  I expect it will cost a pretty penny to have a vertical flue.  Maybe you should look into a wood boiler clothes drier! lol.  I do have fuel tanks down wind of my flue.  I, too, may have to go vertical if the fly ash looks dangerous.



I have so little fly ash actually leaving through the flue, it is hardly measurable.  I'll take a pic of my drum and post it.  I do get some incandescent ash and occasionally some glowing embers discharged into the drum, which is why it is needed.  I think actually prefer having it horizontal, because nothing gets discharged onto a roof, nothing gets stuck in the flue, and it is very easy to access for cleaning.



> I feel like buying the heaterman garn sweater was the best decision I made.  It opened access to the Garn 360 degrees and prevented having to build the front wall.  I love having the access, plus it looks very professional.  Don't tell heaterman, but I would have probably paid more for it.  haha



If it were available in 2008, I would have bought one too!  Heck, I would have tested a prototype for Steve, and not even charged him . . .  :lol: 



> Insured the Garn today.  Insurance used this thread to see my set up.  They were happy.  Non pressurized was the key words they said cheapened the coverage so much.  Insured 30k for 75 bucks a year!   I celebrated by trying to burn the building down.  Haha just kidding Mr. Adjuster.



This is great to hear.  I still need to do this.  Been distracted, and draggin' my feet.  



> I also hired a hydronics designer to come up and help me order pumps, discuss the big barn and help do the switchover in the oil boiler room.  I decided I needed someone physically here to go over the math with me.



Excellent!  Having someone able to size things up in person is certainly worth the investment.  You never know if these yahoos on the internet really know what they are talking about . . .  :bug: 



> On a sad note, ThisWarmHouse office burned up recently.  They sold this Garn to me and have also been helping me to great lengths during this process.  I hold them in high regards and hope for their business speedy recovery.



OMG!  I had not heard this.  I'll give Mark a call.  He did not need this, that's for sure.


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## RowCropRenegade (Feb 5, 2010)

Jim, I hope mine ends up like yours, very little fly ash.  The predominent wind is W to E, so that is back towards the house.  The flue faces the south.  I guess if it turns the wall black, I don't really care.    As long as there is no fire concern.  

I was dreading going to the insurance company, cause we all know the HATE they have for indoor wood boilers.  I advised them of all the things I went against in the Garn Manual.  The door connecting the Garn room, to the garage.  The door next to the flue was another.  And of course not building the front wall.  They didn't care, said the fire-rated doors satisfied the door concerns.  I explained how the Garn worked and they were happy.  The old garage would cost a pretty penny to replace before the Garn, had to have the insurance.  Get er in gear and get er done, Jim!

I had an awful day yesterday.  Oil boiler was down about 6 am.  Spring broke in the fuel injection pump.  Took me 3 or 4 hours to figure out the problem, had to take apart the fuel pump.  Then drive 50 miles to get the right parts.  It's been running for about 12 hours now.  The ole sucker is becoming unreliable, justifies this Garn.

I'm also slowly piecing the primary manifold together.  I think I have to build the 1.5 side first, considering I don't have the pump for the 2 inch side.  No idea what distance to allow.   Got the mounting figured out, though.  I'll have the weekend to screw around with it.

You guys have given me enough information to be able to ask this guy the right questions.  I'm forever indebted to you guys.


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## RowCropRenegade (Feb 5, 2010)

Jim, also, for some reason I can't pull up your link from your signature.


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## Gooserider (Feb 5, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> Jim, also, for some reason I can't pull up your link from your signature.



I'm having the same problem - the sig link gets me a 404 error - 





> Not Found
> 
> The requested URL /GARN/GARN.html was not found on this server.
> 
> ...



If I peel back to just the pennbrookfarm.com address, I get a raw webserver directory structure, sort of like an FTP site - looks like maybe something has happened to your server setup...

As to the comments on ThisWarmHouse - I don't know what is happening with their meatspace location, but their website is up and looks normal - no obvious mention of having had a fire or any other issues - seems like they must either have a colocation on their webservice, or their office must not be to badly damaged... (Or both - hope they aren't badly damaged at any rate)

Gooserider


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## Jim K in PA (Feb 5, 2010)

I checked with Mark, the fire was not in the storefront.  It was in their "corporate" office a few miles away.

My web host had a catastrophic failure of their server(s), and it has been down for a few days.  If they do not get things up and running by Monday, I will have it hosted on another server.

Thanks for the heads up and the sleuthing.


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## RowCropRenegade (Feb 6, 2010)

Jim, I was heading to look at your primary manifold, again.  I'll check back on it monday.  I'm one 18" piece of 1.5" pipe from being able to assemble the manifold.  Couldn't go get it this morning, was too busy unburying the pickup.  Was trying to get the bro (nurse) to the hospital at 6 am.  4x4 pickups become negated at 5 foot snow drifts.  

Electrician coming Monday, HVAC/hydronics dude on Tuesday.  If primary pump arrives late in the week, I'll have a fire roaring by the weekend.  That's my plan, sticking to it.   Thinking I'm starting to get over the hump.


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## Jim K in PA (Feb 6, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> Jim, I was heading to look at your primary manifold, again.  I'll check back on it monday.  I'm one 18" piece of 1.5" pipe from being able to assemble the manifold.  Couldn't go get it this morning, was too busy unburying the pickup.  Was trying to get the bro (nurse) to the hospital at 6 am.  4x4 pickups become negated at 5 foot snow drifts.
> 
> Electrician coming Monday, HVAC/hydronics dude on Tuesday.  If primary pump arrives late in the week, I'll have a fire roaring by the weekend.  That's my plan, sticking to it.   Thinking I'm starting to get over the hump.



If it's not up by Monday, I'll forward the pic to you directly.

Keep pushing - all this prep work is necessary, and worthwhile.

The storm just missed us.  Got less than an inch.  Gonna be cold for the next three nights though.


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## RowCropRenegade (Feb 7, 2010)

Is there guidelines for placement of thermostats?  Outside walls?  Not over baseboards?  I didn't know Fedex delivered on Sunday, happy they did.  I got all day to figure it out now.


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## heaterman (Feb 7, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> Is there guidelines for placement of thermostats?  Outside walls?  Not over baseboards?  I didn't know Fedex delivered on Sunday, happy they did.  I got all day to figure it out now.



Thermostat location:
On an inside wall, away from any direct source of heat such as a cooking stove, sunlight, any heat emitters including electronics like computers or printers and then if possible, centrally located within the zone it controls. Sometimes tough to fulfill all those requirements but ya gotta start somewhere.

I had a service call to a large church where the secretary was complaining that when she came to work in the morning her office was nice and warm but as the day progressed, seemed to get cooler with every hour. The office was in a corner of the building and as such had two outside walls so by the end of the day is would be down to the low 60's even with the electric heater running under her desk. We had done a preseason inspection on the whole system and found everything in working order so I was a bit puzzled by the lack of heat and the way she said it got cooler as the day went on. When I got there it was immediately apparent what the problem was. They had rearranged the office and the computer was on top of the desk about 20" directly below the thermostat. When the computer was off during the night everything worked normally but when she fired it up in the morning the warm air discharge from it kept the t-stat from ever calling for heat. Moved the thermostat and ..........drum roll please................what do you know, she has a warm office.


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## RowCropRenegade (Feb 7, 2010)

Thanks for the details, heaterman.  I've got 2/3 mounted and wires run.  The last one I'm mulling over 2 or 3 different spots.  The bedroom is last on this particular loop.  I'm thinking about putting it in there.  There isn't a good central location for that loop.

Funny how a little computer can cause the entire system to not work right.


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## PJF1313 (Feb 8, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> Thanks for the details, heaterman.  I've got 2/3 mounted and wires run.  The last one I'm mulling over 2 or 3 different spots.  The bedroom is last on this particular loop.  I'm thinking about putting it in there.  There isn't a good central location for that loop.
> 
> Funny how a little computer can cause the entire system to not work right.



Is the B/R on the South side?   If so, it's not going to give you the best "demand" location - found out the hard way...  

Had my t-stat on the North wall  on my South facing living room - interior wall.  But if we didn't have the Verniecian (sp?) Blinds (yes the old, real metal type) 1/2 way down for the winter sun angle, the sun would cook the t-stat - saying it was 80+ °F , but walk around the corner, it was in the upper 50's/lower 60's.  My fix was to use a remote temperature sensor directly behind the t-stat, all of 6" of wire, to get a "real" reading.

Good luck to you and your Garn.  I've been following this thread from the first post (in envy) and you seem to be getting there a bit at a time


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## RowCropRenegade (Feb 8, 2010)

Hi PJ,

The BR is on the south side.  3 big windows, heavy curtains covering them all the time.  It also sits on its on "wing" from the rest of the house.  It's generally the coldest room in the house.  These rooms all are in a straight line from each other.  The den (20x20 and has LP log fireplace), my office (10x15), the bathroom (5x10) then the bedroom(22x22).  You see my dilema.  

Thanks for the wishes.  I hope you can take something away from this thread, too.  

Because of the next snow storm coming in, both electrician and HVAC will be here tomorrow.  Maybe see some pumps by weeks end!


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## Gooserider (Feb 8, 2010)

Another thing that is worth keeping in mind when locating thermostats is the relationship to any doors...  The house I grew up in had the thermostat for the upstairs right next to my bedroom door - if I closed the door, it cut off some of the airflow to the stat, and made it read low...  As a result I wasn't allowed to close my door most of the time.

Gooserider


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## heaterman (Feb 8, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> Hi PJ,
> 
> The BR is on the south side.  3 big windows, heavy curtains covering them all the time.  It also sits on its on "wing" from the rest of the house.  It's generally the coldest room in the house.  These rooms all are in a straight line from each other.  The den (20x20 and has LP log fireplace), my office (10x15), the bathroom (5x10) then the bedroom(22x22).  You see my dilema.
> 
> ...



A room by room heat loss will give you a good clue as to the best location for the stat. If the bedroom is the coolest you could possibly balance the rest of the system by closing the damper on the baseboards in some of the other rooms if they overheat.


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## RowCropRenegade (Feb 8, 2010)

I can try the wireless option on this one to see where it fits best.  I just don't trust wireless.  See what the HVAC guy says tomorrow.


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## RowCropRenegade (Feb 9, 2010)

43-44 is verified as primary pump.  

Decided to move heat exchanger back into oil boiler room.  

Piping the Garn and oil boiler in parallel.  

Eliminated one downstairs t-stat and decided to go with Tekmar (sp?) controls.  Outdoor reset and the whole nine yards.  

I enjoyed speaking for 7 hours with this fella.  Learned alot and used what I learned here to "debate" with him.    He absolutely loved the Garn.  He had previous experiences with the Tarm and Greenwood.   Also is into solar hot water and solar electricity generation.   The investment was worth it.  

I can go ahead and assemble the primary manifold.  Wait on the 43-44, fill and fire the Garn.  Tying into the oil boiler will be final phase.


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## Jim K in PA (Feb 9, 2010)

Sounds good Reed.  Sometimes it pays dividends in confidence to hire an outside person to be the second set of eyes.  We do that for a lot of clients (wish they were GARN customers . . . )


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## sbleiweiss (Feb 9, 2010)

Reed,
How does the Tekmar / Outdoor Reset fit into this puzzle? I thought the outdoor reset would just modulate the temperatures of the oil boiler based on outdoor temperature. Are you planning to continue to burn oil in the shoulder seasons? Can the Tekmar somehow integrate with the wood boiler system?


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## RowCropRenegade (Feb 9, 2010)

We are going to use it to detect temperature at the manifold with the HX and oil boiler, which are in parallel.  Then use variable speed pumps controlled by the Tekmar controller to determine GPM needed based on outside temperature/hx temp required.   Also, it will help manage the domestic hot water, allow for solar controls and data tracking.  This unit will be in the house and allow me to custom tweak setpoints on the controller.  I'm going to put in a seperate HX for DHW only, the Tekmar can make it priority over the heating.  I liked eliminating the two Taco controllers (since they never called me back) for one fancy Tekmar.  Versatility is nice.  I'm starting to think I can use 140 degree water in 20 degree outside weather.  The boiler has been running 50% of the time in 10 degree weather at 160 max.  Apparently you can program the temperature of water required based on the outside temperature.  So if the Garn is 200, it's sipping from the primary.  If it's 140, shes a cranking, unless outdoor temp controller says otherwise.  It will also simplify tying the oil boiler into the setup.

I've had alot of time to read about different variations of setups I could go with.  The project has went from a self employed farmers project to a possible showroom for sales of Garns.  Hence, datalogging and max custom control is been upgraded from low priority to high priority.  It's difficult to discuss the ins and outs of the decisions I made but it sounded very interesting.  Apparently there are quite a few grants that will pay for solar hot water in ohio.  Ohio is pushing them to reach the mandate set for 2010.  The Garn makes alot of sense for alot of solar collectors.  The Tekmar ties in nicely here.  I could eliminate burning wood in the late spring/summer/fall and charge up the big barn floor/tanks.


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## deerhntr (Feb 9, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> I've had alot of time to read about different variations of setups I could go with.  The project has went from a self employed farmers project to a possible showroom for sales of Garns.  Hence, datalogging and max custom control is been upgraded from low priority to high priority.  It's difficult to discuss the ins and outs of the decisions I made but it sounded very interesting.  Apparently there are quite a few grants that will pay for solar hot water in ohio.  Ohio is pushing them to reach the mandate set for 2010.  The Garn makes alot of sense for alot of solar collectors.  The Tekmar ties in nicely here.  I could eliminate burning wood in the late spring/summer/fall and charge up the big barn floor/tanks.



Reed,

Just make certain you do some back of the envelope calculations on the solar to insure it is worth the effort no matter the incentives. You have to make certain that your (Garn stand-by loss + your Daily DHW use) is less than or equal to the BTU output of your Solar Hot water Panels on April 1st, or whenever you switch to you shoulder season. Otherwise, you will need to burn occasionally to account for your losses not made up by the panels.
equation:

(Garn Stand-by Loss + Daily DHW Use) <= (Solar Panel BTU Output); For system that requires no wood BTU input.

If you lose 1/2 degree / hour on your garn, that is 200,160 BTUs/Day(24 hours). That requires a rather large Panel area just to replace stand-by loss.  Average Hot water use for most is 40K-60K/day. So you may have to over size significantly to account for losses in the GARN.

I'm not sure what to expect for stand-by loss, it is all a function of insulation. Maybe others with longer term GARN use can comment. You may want to consider a solar DHW system that does not use the GARN as storage. That has been my thinking recently.


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## RowCropRenegade (Feb 19, 2010)

Russ,

I am just leaving the option open.  Which means selecting the right controller.  I've washed my hands of it for the most part.   I'm moving on to retrofitting my sprayer with a new high tech gadget.  It's magical ability is to prevent pressure drop across my 75 ft boom.  Being able to variable droplet size without changing tips, from the cab.   I'll post it here in the boiler room once it's in operation.  Sprayermen speak some of the same lingo.

My design guru eliminated the primary pump/closely spaced Tees.  Turning my primary circuit into two different headers.  His feelings was the primary/secondary setup wasn't necessarily benefitting me.  The rationale is draw only the btus out of the garn that is exactly required.  I liked the idea of taking tees back to the store and not needing a 43-44 which are 250.  I'm supposed to be getting a diagram, will post as its in my hands.

Been reading, just haven't been posting.  No news here other than lots of snow and no "Garn-ification"


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## deerhntr (Feb 19, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> Russ,
> 
> I am just leaving the option open.  Which means selecting the right controller.  I've washed my hands of it for the most part.   I'm moving on to retrofitting my sprayer with a new high tech gadget.  It's magical ability is to prevent pressure drop across my 75 ft boom.  Being able to variable droplet size without changing tips, from the cab.   I'll post it here in the boiler room once it's in operation.  Sprayermen speak some of the same lingo.
> 
> ...



No, I like the Tekmar controllers. They are very nice. I have been thinking of installing a 263 at some point, and re-piping the oil boiler in parallel. You can also add the vdt controller for your variable speed pump. As for manifold vs pri/sec piping, you know I went the manifold route, saved a pump, and I deliver the same temp H2O to both loads.

I have also thought about solar, but until I can determine my standby loss accurately, I'm going to hold off. Keep pluggin

Good luck with the uber-sprayer. Sounds very nice, and complex! ;-((


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## RowCropRenegade (Mar 27, 2010)

A little update for you guys.  Monday/Tuesday of this week should finish up the piping.  Maybe a fire by the end of next week, when it's going to be 70 outside.  Oh well.

I'm a little P/O with Tekmar right now.  They have failed to get my controller to me.   Called early this week, they said they had shipped it.  Then called again and said it hadn't shipped.


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## Jim K in PA (Mar 28, 2010)

I was wonder how things were going for you Reed.  Sorry to hear that startup has been delayed.  Looks like you'll be all set for next season though.

Last weekend we were near 70.   The last couple of nights have been back down in the 20s.  Later this week we'll be back in the 70s.  I guess it really is spring.


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## RowCropRenegade (Mar 29, 2010)

Should be in excellent shape for next winter.    Expect to have a fire wednesday.

Went to the extra effort to get supply header as low as possible.  Pump should be even with bottom of the tank.


Any opinions on water treatment?  I'm thinking of filling it, firing it up to 200, then watching for leaks.  Then treat it with the chemicals sent with the unit.


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