# Will this be the Dark Winter that our President referred to?



## SidecarFlip (Oct 3, 2021)

I keep hearing reference to it.  Fuel prices are spiking up, food is too and shortages of basic necessities like toilet paper seem to be happening.  Will this be the 'Dark Winter that Biden referred to or will it be a normal one?  I'm on the fence but being a closet prepper I'm also prepared for that eventuality.  How about you?


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## ABMax24 (Oct 3, 2021)

Shortages will only occur if people go and panic buy at the stores again, obviously there isn't enough inventory for everyone to go and buy a years worth of goods at one time. If everyone continues to shop as normal there will be no major issues.

Unfortunately there needs to be a concerted effort in the media and social media to ensure panic can't take hold should this begin to occur. The UK in the past weeks is a prime example, a relatively small event triggered the fear of petrol shortages, the media and social media quickly spread the fear and everyone went almost at once to purchase a sizable amount of fuel, ensuring a fuel shortage did occur.


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## SidecarFlip (Oct 3, 2021)

Problem is the media here in the states relies solely on sensationalism and not of facts.


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## begreen (Oct 3, 2021)

The biggest threat to society right now may be that for profit media conglomerates all are trying to one up each other with the latest drama. If there isn't one, it is manufactured. This applies to TV, radio, streaming (screaming) news, and social media. They are all trying to one up each other with the latest "Breaking News"! Reinstituting the Fairness Doctrine would help quell some of this noise.


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## SidecarFlip (Oct 3, 2021)

I agree 100%.  Being constantly bombarded with half truths and sensationalism makes it all that much harder to extract the truth from fiction.

It was so much easier prior to social media and the net to actually have an opinion about something.  Today, the media wants to force feed you with their agenda's, one of the main reasons I prefer forums like this versus mainstream media.


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## bholler (Oct 3, 2021)

SidecarFlip said:


> I agree 100%.  Being constantly bombarded with half truths and sensationalism makes it all that much harder to extract the truth from fiction.
> 
> It was so much easier prior to social media and the net to actually have an opinion about something.  Today, the media wants to force feed you with their agenda's, one of the main reasons I prefer forums like this versus mainstream media.


I agree somewhat.  But the internet also gives us easy access to a huge amount of information.   If one cares to verify the info they are looking at it can actually cut through the nonsense we are fed.


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## SidecarFlip (Oct 3, 2021)

Problem is, you have to do some digging, IOW due diligence to separate fact from fiction and today fiction abounds.  Therein lies the issue.  Most people take what they read on the net as factual.  Kind of like this vaccination thing.  I understand that people don't like being forced to vaccinate and I feel it should be voluntary.  Having said that, because of my compromised immune system I'm vaccinated and have already got my booster shot.  Vaccination needs to be by choice, not government mandate.  I have an issue with that.

Do I fault or demean those who don't want to get vaccinated, not at all.

Just read in our local print paper that economists are predicting food shortages this winter along with sharp increases in the cost of meat, poultry and fish.

Getting incrementally more expensive to maintain a standard of living that we are accustomed to today.

One bright spot for me at least is my very low cost of heat in the winter.  I might not be eating steak often, but I won't be cold either.


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## ABMax24 (Oct 3, 2021)

The internet is a double edged sword, anyone looking for fact can find oodles of information to make a decisions with, the problem is there is also so much biased/untrue information that people can find "evidence" to support any preconceived idea they may possess. Unfortunately I'm finding more and more people are the latter these days, I left Facebook years ago due to this and only check in for updates on family events, and have recently departed another forum I have been a part of for years because it has become a quagmire of conspiracy theories, half truths and downright lies.

Unfortunately society seems to becoming more divided and intolerant, which is the opposite of what should have happened with the universal access to knowledge on electronic platforms. Large media and social media platforms have realized that hyperbole, drama, fear and anger sell ads and increase view counts, and make their profits at the cost of dividing friends, families and neighbors.


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## stoveliker (Oct 3, 2021)

SidecarFlip said:


> I agree 100%.  Being constantly bombarded with half truths and sensationalism makes it all that much harder to extract the truth from fiction.
> 
> It was so much easier prior to social media and the net to actually have an opinion about something.  Today, the media wants to force feed you with their agenda's, one of the main reasons I prefer forums like this versus mainstream media.


I think it's not only forcefeeding - social media works the way it does because people like/subscribe/read/... mostly the things they agree with. That reinforces beliefs. Also incorrect beliefs.
And it does not expose one to the opposite viewpoint - which either may convince you that you were wrong, or sharpen your arguments how you are right. 

With only a few tv channels and newspapers, one is automatically exposed to more contrarian views. In my view this helps create a middle of the road attitude, rather than reinforcing ones "out of the middle" beliefs into a stage where one believes that that "out of the middle" that one has been reading (see subscribe/like feeds) for a long time IS actually the balanced real (middle of the road) situation.

I've always made it a point to listen to both NPR AND Sean H./Rush L., Fox AND MSNBC. etc. Not because I agree with them - in fact, I often find myself disagreeing with all mentioned above - not on everything, but on many things -, but because disagreeing makes me think about why I disagree, reassess whether I am right or whether new data suggest I'm not. 

To me it's not force feeding, it's choosing certain channels, knowing that channels are rather monochromatic these days.


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## semipro (Oct 3, 2021)

ABMax24 said:


> Unfortunately society seems to becoming more divided and intolerant, which is the opposite of what should have happened with the universal access to knowledge on electronic platforms.


I've been wondering if this is true lately - does better access to information necessarily bring us together?   I'm not sure it does.  
I think there was some complacent bliss inherent in our ways of getting information in the past - slower and from fewer sources. 
It was also much harder to make your opinions known anonymously.    Unfortunately, there are many trolls out that live to set a low bar for public discourse.  As with many things, the lowest common denominator has an unduly negative impact on things.


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## SidecarFlip (Oct 4, 2021)

stoveliker said:


> I've always made it a point to listen to both NPR AND Sean H./Rush L., Fox AND MSNBC. etc. Not because I agree with them - in fact, I often find myself disagreeing with all mentioned above - not on everything, but on many things -, but because disagreeing makes me think about why I disagree, reassess whether I am right or whether new data suggest I'm not.


I do the same thing actually.  I try to get a wide stance viewpoint and then base my decisions and opinions on that.  Good example is the vax thing.  You have one faction that is demanding the everyone get the jab and another saying the jab is worthless.  I'm somewhere in the middle.

I believe the issue with a good percentage of the anti-vaxxers is, they don't want to be forced to vaccinate.  I don't blame them at all.  We supposedly live in a free society and that flies in the face of a free society.  That and all the constant information and disinformation swirling around the vaccines.  Every day it seems like more information and disinformation surfaces that makes the decision to get vaccinated even harder.

In my case it was not a choice, but a requirement as I'm immune compromised.  Covid, for me is a death sentence and I really want to 'hang around' a while longer...lol


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## begreen (Oct 4, 2021)

Vaccination mandates are far from new. They have been imposed for general public safety for a long time and still are for example, before a child can enter public schools in most areas. It's why smallpox and polio are not a daily threat. This is not about personal freedoms. One of the bad sides of the internet is that it has given the microphone to the narcissists. It, along with cable news,  has changed the national dialog to all about ME, instead of US. It used to be that personal sacrifice for the good of the country was a noble thing. Now everything is about imposing on one's "personal freedom" which is ironic, considering what one has given up to fly, or drive a car, etc. Got your seatbelt fastened, been x-rayed by TSA?


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## SidecarFlip (Oct 4, 2021)

Being as old as I am, I still remember going with my dad and mom to the local high school and getting my Polio vaccine on the sugar cube.  Everyone did it with no whining.  My late mother in law had polio, not a pretty thing.

Like I said ( I believe I did at least), I fail to understand why people are so against the vaccine.


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## begreen (Oct 4, 2021)

Yes, and you noted the reason, massive disinformation campaigns, both on the internet, but also on some streaming and cable networks. The tragedy of this is when someone becomes so polarized that common sense doesn't kick in and they take family members, friends and themselves to the grave with this misguided belief.


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## begreen (Oct 4, 2021)

Facebook's (and therefore Twitter and Instagram) algorithms that percolate the most posted item to the top of the feed is part of the problem. It allows a bad actor to continually throw mud up against the wall, no matter how wrong it is, and let's it gain momentum. Coincidentally, Facebook servers are offline right now.


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## stoveliker (Oct 4, 2021)

begreen said:


> . Coincidentally, Facebook servers are offline right now.


Do you have a confession to make?


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## peakbagger (Oct 4, 2021)

I was in the high school during the first arab oil embargo. Lots of Doom and Gloom pre world wide web./ Any "expert" could get on TV and newsprint with prediction of the world getting worse.  Peak Oil was big news. Folks were prepping for the SHTF scenario. Fast forward to Y2K, same experts on the news and on the early days of the internet. The media was hyping it and their advertisers were making a lot of money selling things like generators and dehydrated food.  No matter what,the media comes down to getting eyeballs, Facebook has just optimized the method of attracting more of them.


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## tlc1976 (Oct 4, 2021)

begreen said:


> Facebook's (and therefore Twitter and Instagram) algorithms that percolate the most posted item to the top of the feed is part of the problem. It allows a bad actor to continually throw mud up against the wall, no matter how wrong it is, and let's it gain momentum. Coincidentally, Facebook servers are offline right now.


That and their algorithms that basically limit your online viewing window based on certain factors. People believe things because they are not shown any different. Last year I watched The Social Dilemma, it explained a lot.

So far we are holding steady at least what I use. Pellets are the same price as last year, and gas is down a dime and what it was basically since this spring, 3.20 give or take. Haven’t checked propane since I’m not down enough for a minimum delivery, and no natural gas in my area.


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## begreen (Oct 4, 2021)

The daily media-created drama constantly takes one’s eyes and mind off of big picture questions and issues that need to be thought about, discussed, and addressed. Three days after a national disaster they are back selling soap and a new outrage. This helps nothing but their bank accounts.


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## Bad LP (Oct 4, 2021)

begreen said:


> Vaccination mandates are far from new. They have been imposed for general public safety for a long time and still are for example, before a child can enter public schools in most areas. It's why smallpox and polio are not a daily threat. This is not about personal freedoms. One of the bad sides of the internet is that it has given the microphone to the narcissists. It, along with cable news,  has changed the national dialog to all about ME, instead of US. It used to be that personal sacrifice for the good of the country was a noble thing. Now everything is about imposing on one's "personal freedom" which is ironic, considering what one has given up to fly, or drive a car, etc. Got your seatbelt fastened, been x-rayed by TSA?


The simple fact is those vaccines had full, real world testing that were studied for years. If the current vax had the same oversight it wouldn't have the push back. If the politics were removed and biased reporting was not be pushed... If that midget soap box standing Dr Fuchi wasn't lining his pockets with the politicians we might have more faith.

Ya, we needed our shots and scars on out left arms to do a lot of things in the 60's but the testing was a lot more trustworthy IMO.


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## stoveliker (Oct 4, 2021)

Bad LP said:


> The simple fact is those vaccines had full, real world testing that were studied for years. If the current vax had the same oversight it wouldn't have the push back. If the politics were removed and biased reporting was not be pushed... If that midget soap box standing Dr Fuchi wasn't lining his pockets with the politicians we might have more faith.
> 
> Ya, we needed our shots and scars on out left arms to do a lot of things in the 60's but the testing was a lot more trustworthy IMO.


That might have been understandable half a year ago.
At this point these vaccines have been used by hundreds and hundreds of millions of people. And without any significant side effects. While initial hesitance can be rationalized (tho it was not needed), hesitance at this point can not.


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## MTY (Oct 4, 2021)

The rational of using a year plus or minus of data to prove a point is patently stupid.  How many years did people ingest asbestos prior to symptoms developing.  The examples of serious health issues not appearing for years are boundless.


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## Fingerlakes Fireplace (Oct 4, 2021)

SidecarFlip said:


> I agree 100%.  Being constantly bombarded with half truths and sensationalism makes it all that much harder to extract the truth from fiction.
> 
> It was so much easier prior to social media and the net to actually have an opinion about something.  Today, the media wants to force feed you with their agenda's, one of the main reasons I prefer forums like this versus mainstream media.


Do you realize this forum is censored????
If you do not agree with the moderator, you are gone.


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## stoveliker (Oct 4, 2021)

MTY said:


> The rational of using a year plus or minus of data to prove a point is patently stupid.  How many years did people ingest asbestos prior to symptoms developing.  The examples of serious health issues not appearing for years are boundless.



The biotechnology on which these (Pfizer and Moderna)  are based has decades of history. Not just a year.

And the J&J vaccine is more classical.


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## bholler (Oct 4, 2021)

Bad LP said:


> The simple fact is those vaccines had full, real world testing that were studied for years. If the current vax had the same oversight it wouldn't have the push back. If the politics were removed and biased reporting was not be pushed... If that midget soap box standing Dr Fuchi wasn't lining his pockets with the politicians we might have more faith.
> 
> Ya, we needed our shots and scars on out left arms to do a lot of things in the 60's but the testing was a lot more trustworthy IMO.


What is wrong with the testing of the covid vaccines?  

These types of vaccines have been used for decades there is absolutely no reason to expect any side effects different from any other vaccines of a similar type.


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## bholler (Oct 4, 2021)

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> Do you realize this forum is censored????
> If you do not agree with the moderator, you are gone.


No the forum has rules.  The moderators enforce them.  I think you may need to look up the definition of censorship.   Privately owned forums setting rules for content is not censorship sorry.


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## Bad LP (Oct 4, 2021)

bholler said:


> What is wrong with the testing of the covid vaccines?
> 
> These types of vaccines have been used for decades there is absolutely no reason to expect any side effects different from any other vaccines of a similar type.


I have direct friends, not a friend of a .... who can tell you otherwise who suffered serious side effects. 
If the vaccine is so great why are those who took the shot still getting sick and more importantly still wearing the face diaper? Why are many of our leaders not taking the jab? Why do I personally know nurses, cops and firefighters who will not get jabbed? A very good friend got Covid and shut down his entire 24 hour group on the FD? That’s 4 stations of FFers. Why was the BS of Joe getting his booster on a mock stage? For what purpose? Security doesn’t cut it as the press covering the WH trip over themselves pushing crap daily. 
This was rushed and hushed. Then it was pushed harder than a rock hard stool. That is not a R or D issue. 

I’m not buying it.


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## Bad LP (Oct 4, 2021)

stoveliker said:


> That might have been understandable half a year ago.
> At this point these vaccines have been used by hundreds and hundreds of millions of people. And without any significant side effects. While initial hesitance can be rationalized (tho it was not needed), hesitance at this point can not.


Testing over TIME has shown what long term side effects on Covid?? Why are they not telling us the potential side effects? You’re not be told or I’m not hearing it.


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## Bad LP (Oct 4, 2021)

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> Do you realize this forum is censored????
> If you do not agree with the moderator, you are gone.


Not so fast. I’m still here and have disagreed when posts were yanked. I’m leaving politics out of this. 

My words are my opinion and I’m not violating any forum rules. Now lock outs are not out of the question but that’s another subject all together.


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## bholler (Oct 4, 2021)

Bad LP said:


> I have direct friends, not a friend of a .... who can tell you otherwise who suffered serious side effects.
> If the vaccine is so great why are those who took the shot still getting sick and more importantly still wearing the face diaper? Why are many of our leaders not taking the jab? Why do I personally know nurses, cops and firefighters who will not get jabbed? A very good friend got Covid and shut down his entire 24 hour group on the FD? That’s 4 stations of FFers. Why was the BS of Joe getting his booster on a mock stage? For what purpose? Security doesn’t cut it as the press covering the WH trip over themselves pushing crap daily.
> This was rushed and hushed. Then it was pushed harder than a rock hard stool. That is not a R or D issue.
> 
> I’m not buying it.


Yes people have had serious side effects.  Just as people do with every other vaccine.  The numbers of side effects from the covid vaccine are in line with other vaccines.

People are still getting sick because the vaccines aren't 100% effective. No one ever claimed they were.  And they are even less effective against the Delta variant.  But the number of vaccinated people who have serious cases of covid even the Delta variant are very low.

Vaccinated people like me are still wearing masks because we can still be infected.  And due to the fact that the vaccine protects us from serious symptoms we may not know but could spread it to others.

As far as why some people are choosing not to get it I don't know you would have to ask them.

Again what is wrong with the testing for the covid vaccine?


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## bholler (Oct 4, 2021)

Bad LP said:


> Not so fast. I’m still here and have disagreed when posts were yanked. I’m leaving politics out of this.
> 
> My words are my opinion and I’m not violating any forum rules. Now lock outs are not out of the question but that’s another subject all together.


Yes you can follow the rules.  I may not agree with you but that's fine.


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## bholler (Oct 4, 2021)

Bad LP said:


> Testing over TIME has shown what long term side effects on Covid?? Why are they not telling us the potential side effects? You’re not be told or I’m not hearing it.


Look up the data on the vaccines.  They list all of the potential side effects.  And when you get a vaccine that information is made available to you.


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## Bad LP (Oct 4, 2021)

bholler said:


> Yes people have had serious side effects.  Just as people do with every other vaccine.  The numbers of side effects from the covid vaccine are in line with other vaccines.
> 
> People are still getting sick because the vaccines aren't 100% effective. No one ever claimed they were.  And they are even less effective against the Delta variant.  But the number of vaccinated people who have serious cases of covid even the Delta variant are very low.
> 
> ...


I do not believe that full long term testing has been done. There has not been enough time tests  performed unlike most of our well documented, approved and long term vaccinations many of us had injected. 

I’m not getting it. Some of our closest friends have. 
Last I knew we had a choice. 

If vaccination was so important why are many not required including those we elect into office and deliver our mail? 
No need to troll live bait near our southern edge.


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## bholler (Oct 4, 2021)

Bad LP said:


> I do not believe that full long term testing has been done. There has not been enough time tests  performed unlike most of our well documented, approved and long term vaccinations many of us had injected.
> 
> I’m not getting it. Some of our closest friends have.
> Last I knew we had a choice.
> ...


I am just trying to figure out what the problems with the testing you were referring to were.

And now the lack of vaccine mandates is a reason to distrust them?  That is a unique viewpoint.


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## tlc1976 (Oct 4, 2021)

I got the shot because Covid induced blood clots are much more likely than vaccine induced blood clots. I’ve already had 3 DVTs before the pandemic, I don’t need another source of clots.

One of my classmates from school just died this morning after a 6 week fight in the hospital. Covid blood clots ravaged his body and just wouldn’t quit. 45 just like me. His sister and mom got the shot but he chose not to.


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## ABMax24 (Oct 4, 2021)

In theory we have the choice of vaccination too, but restaurants, bars, movie theatres, etc are now mandated by the government to require proof of vaccination or a negative test result within 72hrs to allow entry. Employers are also allowed to force employees to take the vaccine or face termination of employment. My employer does not require this, but many of the clients we work for do.

Honestly I don't care if someone gets the vaccine or not, but our hospitals are currently overrun with unvaccinated covid patients, at first elective surgeries were being cancelled, but now all surgeries not critical to immediate survival are being cancelled. There are a slew of cancer patients currently waiting on surgeries because medical staff are spending their time treating Covid.

I wasn't in a big rush to get the vaccine because I'm in the low risk group, but my wife is due with our first child in a months time and our hospital visit during that time will almost guarantee exposure to the virus, so we have both begrudgingly went and got our first dose and will get our second in the coming days. I'm not worried about side effects of the vaccine for myself, but I wasn't a real big fan of making the decision with the wife for her to get vaccinated while pregnant.


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## SidecarFlip (Oct 4, 2021)

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> Do you realize this forum is censored????
> If you do not agree with the moderator, you are gone.


Every privately held forum is.  Don't know about censored.  I'd say so long as you abide by the rules of conduct there would never be an issue.  Been on this forum a long time and never had any issue.  The mods here seem to be very lenient as far as content and comments go and while they may or may not agree with something, I've never seen anyone get expunged.

Forums are all about expressing your opinions about various subjects and as a rule I don't post anything in this sub forum.  I did because my original post wasn't about heating my home with bio mass.

I'm a (guess) a closet prepper.  I think most of us on here are or we would not be heating with alternative fuels and that sort of makes us a minority.


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## SidecarFlip (Oct 4, 2021)

bholler said:


> But the number of vaccinated people who have serious cases of covid even the Delta variant are very low.


That is 100% correct and factual.  Let me put it this way.  I got the 'jab' (if you want to call it that because the alternative for me is certain death).  I much prefer getting Covid and surviving it because I got the vaccine rather than winging it.  Having said that, my wife and I do everything in our power not to get it but if we do (especially me), I take comfort in the fact that because I am vaccinated I stand a much better chance of surviving it and not having issues down the road.  Covid ravages your lungs and no one really knows the long term effects but I'm not about to play the lottery with it.

I lost a friend to Covid before the vaccines came out and another person I know, an anti vaxxer succumbed to it a few weeks ago.

All I can say is, you don't want to get infected and I'll leave it at that.


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## Fingerlakes Fireplace (Oct 4, 2021)

SidecarFlip said:


> Every privately held forum is.  Don't know about censored.  I'd say so long as you abide by the rules of conduct there would never be an issue.  Been on this forum a long time and never had any issue.  The mods here seem to be very lenient as far as content and comments go and while they may or may not agree with something, I've never seen anyone get expunged.
> 
> Forums are all about expressing your opinions about various subjects and as a rule I don't post anything in this sub forum.  I did because my original post wasn't about heating my home with bio mass.
> 
> I'm a (guess) a closet prepper.  I think most of us on here are or we would not be heating with alternative fuels and that sort of makes us a minority.


I posted some facts about Covid here previously, about what i am seeing happening in my community, and our church group, and it was removed immediately.


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## bholler (Oct 4, 2021)

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> I posted some facts about Covid here previously, about what i am seeing happening in my community, and our church group, and it was removed immediately.


It was not removed because of that part of your post.   There were other parts that were a clear violation of the rules.  If you don't like our rules you can choose not to take part in this forum.


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## Fingerlakes Fireplace (Oct 4, 2021)

bholler said:


> It was not removed because of that part of your post.   There were other parts that were a clear violation of the rules.  If you don't like our rules you can choose not to take part in this forum.


Ok, so if i remove my opinion, will you allow the facts in a post?


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## SidecarFlip (Oct 4, 2021)

tlc1976 said:


> I got the shot because Covid induced blood clots are much more likely than vaccine induced blood clots. I’ve already had 3 DVTs before the pandemic, I don’t need another source of clots.
> 
> One of my classmates from school just died this morning after a 6 week fight in the hospital. Covid blood clots ravaged his body and just wouldn’t quit. 45 just like me. His sister and mom got the shot but he chose not to.


Life is all about choices.  Some choices are clear cut, some aren't.  As we all walk the road of life, we all get to choose but at the same time we all get to reap the rewards good or bad, from those choices.  I consider getting the vaccine a personal choice and not something the government should tell me I have to do.  I'm an adult I think at 71 years old and I can choose what road I want to go down.  Your choice may be different but whatever that choice is, you will have to live (or die) with it.


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## bholler (Oct 4, 2021)

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> Ok, so if i remove my opinion, will you allow the facts in a post?


If you remove the political rant part of it absolutely.


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## Fingerlakes Fireplace (Oct 4, 2021)

SidecarFlip said:


> That is 100% correct and factual.  Let me put it this way.  I got the 'jab' (if you want to call it that because the alternative for me is certain death).  I much prefer getting Covid and surviving it because I got the vaccine rather than winging it.  Having said that, my wife and I do everything in our power not to get it but if we do (especially me), I take comfort in the fact that because I am vaccinated I stand a much better chance of surviving it and not having issues down the road.  Covid ravages your lungs and no one really knows the long term effects but I'm not about to play the lottery with it.
> 
> I lost a friend to Covid before the vaccines came out and another person I know, an anti vaxxer succumbed to it a few weeks ago.
> 
> All I can say is, you don't want to get infected and I'll leave it at that.


I did get it, as well as most of my friends.
Not pleasant, not deadly either.


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## bholler (Oct 4, 2021)

SidecarFlip said:


> Life is all about choices.  Some choices are clear cut, some aren't.  As we all walk the road of life, we all get to choose but at the same time we all get to reap the rewards good or bad, from those choices.  I consider getting the vaccine a personal choice and not something the government should tell me I have to do.  I'm an adult I think at 71 years old and I can choose what road I want to go down.  Your choice may be different but whatever that choice is, you will have to live (or die) with it.


I can absolutely agree with that.  And I don't support a vaccine mandate across the board.  But I don't take issue with some consequences being imposed on those who choose not to.


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## bholler (Oct 4, 2021)

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> I did get it, as well as most of my friends.
> Not pleasant, not deadly either.


It isn't deadly for most no.  But has been deadly for a few hundred thousand Americans.  I know many who had it and made it through fine.  But I also know some who didn't.


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## Fingerlakes Fireplace (Oct 4, 2021)

SidecarFlip said:


> Life is all about choices.  Some choices are clear cut, some aren't.  As we all walk the road of life, we all get to choose but at the same time we all get to reap the rewards good or bad, from those choices.  I consider getting the vaccine a personal choice and not something the government should tell me I have to do.  I'm an adult I think at 71 years old and I can choose what road I want to go down.  Your choice may be different but whatever that choice is, you will have to live (or die) with it.


You are absolutely right!
We all have choices to make in life. As far as the choices about your health goes, there are many.
Diet probably being the biggest.


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## SidecarFlip (Oct 5, 2021)

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> You are absolutely right!
> We all have choices to make in life. As far as the choices about your health goes, there are many.
> Diet probably being the biggest.


There are a boatload of overweight people in this country today.  Wife and I went to the local fair this summer (so happens the outfit that puts on the rodeo buys all their hay from me so I happen to be a sponsor (and get free tickets).  Anyway, I was amazed at the sheer number number of overweight people, especially the younger ones.  Nothing more disgusting that seeing a young gal wearing a tank top and shorts with her belly hanging over the top of her shorts.

I wonder if they realize just how bad they look, but then again, maybe they don't care...

Lots of tats too.  Guess younger people don't realize that when they age, those tats get ugly.

Lots of over weight folks running around today.


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## Bad LP (Oct 5, 2021)

bholler said:


> It isn't deadly for most no.  But has been deadly for a few hundred thousand Americans.  I know many who had it and made it through fine.  But I also know some who didn't.


Sort of like cancer?


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## SidecarFlip (Oct 5, 2021)

Bad LP said:


> Sort of like cancer?


Exactly....


----------



## bholler (Oct 5, 2021)

Bad LP said:


> Sort of like cancer?


Not really at all cancer isn't transmissible.   And cancer deaths are usually close to double the 2020  covid deaths.  So no they are not alike at all


----------



## bholler (Oct 5, 2021)

Also cancer is treated like a disease not a political agenda.


----------



## Bad LP (Oct 5, 2021)

bholler said:


> Also cancer is treated like a disease not a political agenda.


I’m so glad they have pumped as much effort into it as Covid. 
My wife is a 2 timer survivor. Don’t ask her opinion on the subject.


----------



## bholler (Oct 5, 2021)

Bad LP said:


> I’m so glad they have pumped as much effort into it as Covid.
> My wife is a 2 timer survivor. Don’t ask her opinion on the subject.


You don't think more effort and money has gone into cancer research than covid????


----------



## Fingerlakes Fireplace (Oct 5, 2021)

SidecarFlip said:


> There are a boatload of overweight people in this country today.  Wife and I went to the local fair this summer (so happens the outfit that puts on the rodeo buys all their hay from me so I happen to be a sponsor (and get free tickets).  Anyway, I was amazed at the sheer number number of overweight people, especially the younger ones.  Nothing more disgusting that seeing a young gal wearing a tank top and shorts with her belly hanging over the top of her shorts.
> 
> I wonder if they realize just how bad they look, but then again, maybe they don't care...
> 
> ...


Yes, and that was just the obese folks, that you can see.
 What about all the diabetes?  
Why is America not tops in health????
We spend the most on heathcare!


----------



## SidecarFlip (Oct 5, 2021)

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> We spend the most on heathcare!


...and we spend the most of fast food and junk food too.  Very few Americans eat a proper diet today.  As a rule, my wife and I never eat salt and grease laden fast food.


----------



## SidecarFlip (Oct 5, 2021)

bholler said:


> You don't think more effort and money has gone into cancer research than covid????


First off, everyone has cancer cells in their bodies, I mean everyone,  What science cannot determine is what sets them off.  Once that happens, cancer will become a non disease, just like Polio or Leprosy.

Don't have a clue how much is spent on cancer research versus Covid but I'd sure like to know.  I do know that treating patients for Covid is a huge drain on medical staff and hospitals.


----------



## bholler (Oct 5, 2021)

SidecarFlip said:


> First off, everyone has cancer cells in their bodies, I mean everyone,  What science cannot determine is what sets them off.  Once that happens, cancer will become a non disease, just like Polio or Leprosy.
> 
> Don't have a clue how much is spent on cancer research versus Covid but I'd sure like to know.  I do know that treating patients for Covid is a huge drain on medical staff and hospitals.


I am pretty sure in 2020 and 2021 more was spent on covid.   But that spending is already tapering off allot.  And will continue to cancer research has been going on for decades and probably will quite a bit longer.  It is just much more complicated.  And is a group of diseases not just one.  Comparing research on something like that to research on how to control the spread of a virus is silly they are completely different.


----------



## bholler (Oct 5, 2021)

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> Yes, and that was just the obese folks, that you can see.
> What about all the diabetes?
> Why is America not tops in health????
> We spend the most on heathcare!


Spending on healthcare is a completely different animal.  Yes we have some of the best healthcare in the world but the financial side of it is a complete mess.


----------



## Fingerlakes Fireplace (Oct 5, 2021)

bholler said:


> Spending on healthcare is a completely different animal.  Yes we have some of the best healthcare in the world but the financial side of it is a complete mess.


Hang on here...
If we had _*the best heathcare*_ in the world, wouldn't we have the best longevity???
No, because its all about the money....
Just like Fauci will not tell you have you can boost your body to help fight viruses.


----------



## bholler (Oct 5, 2021)

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> Hang on here...
> If we had _*the best heathcare*_ in the world, wouldn't we have the best longevity???
> No, because its all about the money....
> Just like Fauci will not tell you have you can boost your body to help fight viruses.


Of course you can boost your immune system to fight viruses.  Everyone knows that and if you bothered to read the info put out it clearly says living a healthy lifestyle reduces your risk of serious problems from COVID.  But taking some vitamin c isn't going to stop it.

America doesn't have the best longevity because many Americans don't live healthy lifestyles.  No matter how good the healthcare system is it can't overcome that.   But the quality of healthcare we have access to here if you can afford it is without question some of the best in the world


----------



## bholler (Oct 5, 2021)

And yes it is all about the money.  We are largely a capitalist society and our healthcare system insurance etc etc is run by capitalists.  So by default it will be all about the money.


But with all it's problems with out that system my daughter would most likely be in heart failure or dead by now.   Her heart condition was caught and fixed which would not have happened in many other countries.

And again thanks to everyone here who gave support and or money to help us through that last year.  You people are amazing.


----------



## begreen (Oct 5, 2021)

In case some missed the message.








						Dr. Fauci: 3 everyday things you can do to help boost your immune system
					

White House advisor Dr. Anthony Fauci explained basic habits that you can add to your daily routine to optimize your immune function, in an interview with Business Insider. Here are the science-backed strategies he recommends.




					www.cnbc.com


----------



## Bad LP (Oct 5, 2021)

bholler said:


> You don't think more effort and money has gone into cancer research than covid????


Lately?


----------



## bholler (Oct 5, 2021)

Bad LP said:


> Lately?


Read my post about that above


----------



## Bad LP (Oct 5, 2021)

I know a lot more people severely impacted by cancer than Covid. People have lost everything to paying for a glimmer of hope to survive cancer. Nobody fought harder than my father but my wife proved she’s pretty tough. 
I know people who contacted Covid and are continuing on in life. 

I’m not trusting anything coming from these people. They made it political, not me. They have pushed the false narrative, not me. They shut down the country, not me. 
We don’t even have a straight story 2 years later on where it came from.

Fauchi is a fraud and a hack. He wouldn’t know the truth if it kicked him in the teeth.


----------



## bholler (Oct 5, 2021)

Bad LP said:


> I know a lot more people severely impacted by cancer than Covid. People have lost everything to paying for a glimmer of hope to survive cancer. Nobody fought harder than my father but my wife proved she’s pretty tough.
> I know people who contacted Covid and are continuing on in life.
> 
> I’m not trusting anything coming from these people. They made it political, not me. They have pushed the false narrative, not me. They shut down the country, not me.
> ...


What false narrative?

Yes everyone knows people who have been severely effected by cancer.  And yes that is horrible.  But it doesn't change the fact that we are dealing with a global pandemic.  Yes we spent allot and put allot of effort into controlling the spread to save as many people as possible.  But we have been putting lots of money and effort into cancer research for a long time.  I really don't see what one has to do with the other.

I also don't understand the obsession with where it came from.  It is a new form of a virus that has been around for a long time that happens naturally all the time.


----------



## bholler (Oct 5, 2021)

I am intrigued by the fact that Dr fauci has been a trusted advisor to every president since Reagan.  And is generally highly respected in the medical and scientific community.  But now he is supposedly an idiot a liar a their etc etc.   What changed????

Why is it a large portion of the American population no longer trusts scientific data that is widely agreed upon across the globe?


----------



## SidecarFlip (Oct 5, 2021)

bholler said:


> Spending on healthcare is a completely different animal.  Yes we have some of the best healthcare in the world but the financial side of it is a complete mess.


I agree with that 100%.  I don't see how anyone with marginal healthcare can withstand the cost of something major.  My last go around was almost a million bucks billed.  Crazy stuff.  Just had Cyber Knife at 16 grand a session for 6 sessions.  Each session was 15 minutes.  Wish I could charge those rates.

I'm fortunate in the fact that I have a 'Cadillac' healthcare plan.  Lots of people don't and a big hit can bankrupt a person.


----------



## SidecarFlip (Oct 5, 2021)

Bad LP said:


> Fauchi is a fraud and a hack. He wouldn’t know the truth if it kicked him in the teeth


One thing we all know and that is, he cannot pitch a baseball for beans.  The problem with Fauci is he likes playing political theater.  Medical people need to keep politics and medicine separate.  They don't mix well.

Unlike cancer, Covid has turned into a political football.  In my view that is bad Ju Ju.


----------



## bholler (Oct 5, 2021)

SidecarFlip said:


> One thing we all know and that is, he cannot pitch a baseball for beans.


Neither can I.  It's even worse now with a bad shoulder


----------



## Fingerlakes Fireplace (Oct 5, 2021)

bholler said:


> I am intrigued by the fact that Dr fauci has been a trusted advisor to every president since Reagan.  And is generally highly respected in the medical and scientific community.  But now he is supposedly an idiot a liar a their etc etc.   What changed????
> 
> Why is it a large portion of the American population no longer trusts scientific data that is widely agreed upon across the globe?


If you wouldn't be so blinded by politics, you could see why. Anybody that flip-flops like fauci did, cannot be trusted.


----------



## bholler (Oct 5, 2021)

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> If you wouldn't be so blinded by politics, you could see why. Anybody that flip-flops like fauci did, cannot be trusted.


Again this isn't a political issue no matter how much you try to make it one.  It is an issue of science.   If you actually bothered to read all of the data and studies instead of the few that back your views you might learn something

Now can you kindly tell us what he flip flopped on that wasn't backed by science???


----------



## SidecarFlip (Oct 5, 2021)

That is ok.  I have neuropathy nerve damage in my right foot and I'm doing a good stand in for Chester from Gunsmoke right now.  Waiting for the Gabapentin to kick in.  Will be nice to walk normally and keep my balance and actually get a full night's sleep for a change.  Have to sleep in the recliner.  Sleeping in bed is impossible.  Getting in bed is impossible anyway.  least my wife is somewhat happy as I don't 'steal' all the covers now...lol

Gonna be an interesting year keeping the stove full.  Not sure I can hoist a full 5 gallon bucket of corn-pellet mix and dump it into the hopper.  Might have to relegate that chore to my loving wife.


----------



## bholler (Oct 5, 2021)

SidecarFlip said:


> That is ok.  I have neuropathy nerve damage in my right foot and I'm doing a good stand in for Chester from Gunsmoke right now.  Waiting for the Gabapentin to kick in.  Will be nice to walk normally and keep my balance and actually get a full night's sleep for a change.  Have to sleep in the recliner.  Sleeping in bed is impossible.  Getting in bed is impossible anyway.  least my wife is somewhat happy as I don't 'steal' all the covers now...lol
> 
> Gonna be an interesting year keeping the stove full.  Not sure I can hoist a full 5 gallon bucket of corn-pellet mix and dump it into the hopper.  Might have to relegate that chore to my loving wife.


It must be rough I am sure as a farmer you are used to being very self reliant.


----------



## Fingerlakes Fireplace (Oct 5, 2021)

bholler said:


> Again this isn't a political issue no matter how much you try to make it one.  It is an issue of science.   If you actually bothered to read all of the data and studies instead of the few that back your views you might learn something
> 
> Now can you kindly tell us what he flip flopped on that wasn't backed by science???


He said, in the midst of a pandemic, wearing a mask will just give you a false sense of security. 
What was it, less than 24 hours later, he flipped and said we all have to wear masks now.


----------



## Fingerlakes Fireplace (Oct 5, 2021)

SidecarFlip said:


> That is ok.  I have neuropathy nerve damage in my right foot and I'm doing a good stand in for Chester from Gunsmoke right now.  Waiting for the Gabapentin to kick in.  Will be nice to walk normally and keep my balance and actually get a full night's sleep for a change.  Have to sleep in the recliner.  Sleeping in bed is impossible.  Getting in bed is impossible anyway.  least my wife is somewhat happy as I don't 'steal' all the covers now...lol
> 
> Gonna be an interesting year keeping the stove full.  Not sure I can hoist a full 5 gallon bucket of corn-pellet mix and dump it into the hopper.  Might have to relegate that chore to my loving wife.


Does it still pay to burn corn? Seems like the price has gone up, more than other heating sources. Or do you burn the high myco stuff?


----------



## bholler (Oct 5, 2021)

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> He said, in the midst of a pandemic, wearing a mask will just give you a false sense of security.
> What was it, less than 24 hours later, he flipped and said we all have to wear masks now.


That isn't a flip.  Wearing a mask can give you a false sense of security.  They are much more effective at protecting others from you than they are at protecting you.   This is a very basic scientific fact that you should be able to grasp.  

That is exactly why he said everyone should wear masks.

This is just like your claim that he never said anything about things to boost your immune system.   You are only relying on sources that support your views.   They are telling you what you want to hear and because of that you don't bother to check if it is true.


----------



## Bad LP (Oct 6, 2021)

bholler said:


> Again this isn't a political issue no matter how much you try to make it one.  It is an issue of science.   If you actually bothered to read all of the data and studies instead of the few that back your views you might learn something
> 
> Now can you kindly tell us what he flip flopped on that wasn't backed by science???


2 weeks to flatten the curve is a start. 
Sending money to a China lab. 
Leaked emails. 
Why did he send a crying tear letter to Hillary? 
He and the politically connected brought politics into the so called science. 

It’s obvious that we are at opposite ends of the issue as well as politics. We will never see eye to eye on this.


----------



## bholler (Oct 6, 2021)

Bad LP said:


> 2 weeks to flatten the curve is a start.
> Sending money to a China lab.
> Leaked emails.
> Why did he send a crying tear letter to Hillary?
> ...


How exactly did fauci bring politics into it????

And yes clearly the 2 week thing was wrong as was many other things said by many different people in the beginning.  We had no idea what to expect no one did.

Exactly what money was given to what Chinese lab when and on who's authorization?


----------



## brenndatomu (Oct 6, 2021)

bholler said:


> Now can you kindly tell us what he flip flopped on that wasn't backed by science???


The guy is the biggest flip flopper I've ever seen...makes career politicians look like amateurs!
The guy is a proven liar, and should not only be fired, but in prison! NO idea why he is still in his position...should have been canned long ago...and freakin retire already!


----------



## bholler (Oct 6, 2021)

brenndatomu said:


> The guy is the biggest flip flopper I've ever seen...makes career politicians look like amateurs!
> The guy is a proven liar, and should not only be fired, but in prison! NO idea why he is still in his position...should have been canned long ago...and freakin retire already!


*in prison for what?  *


----------



## kborndale (Oct 6, 2021)

Everything covid related has unfortunately been politicized including fauci.  That doesn't mean that everything fauci says is automatically 100% false.


----------



## SidecarFlip (Oct 6, 2021)

kborndale said:


> Everything covid related has unfortunately been politicized including fauci.  That doesn't mean that everything fauci says is automatically 100% false.


Exactly,  It all distills down to what you want to hear and what you want believe as fact verses fiction.

Myself, I prefer to err on the side of what I need to do to mitigate Covid any way I can and so far my regimen has worked just fine.

Gotta go get my flu shot this week as well.


----------



## fire_man (Oct 6, 2021)

We were taught in Engineering school and in the workplace to make data driven decisions. This prevents emotion and non relevent thinking from interfering with the solution.

My conclusion based on reviewing real world data is that vaccines reduce the risk of hospitalization and death due to Covid19 and the vaccines are safe. The odds of having serious problems with Covid are astronomically higher than having a problem with the vaccine itself.

On an emotional note, I find it frustrating to watch interviews of the unvaccinated pleading on their Covid deathbeds and the death beds of their family members to get the shot, yet there are still so many who chose not to get vaccinated.

Here is one of many examples -> https://my.clevelandclinic.org/pati...pitalized-with-covid-19-wishes-he-got-vaccine. There are many examples of dying patients pleading to get the vaccine but it's too late.

It's  frustrating as a parent of a Nursing student who works in hospitals  knowing her risk of being exposed is higher due to misinformation spread by some of the  unvaccinated.


----------



## bholler (Oct 6, 2021)

fire_man said:


> We were taught in Engineering school and in the workplace to make data driven decisions. This prevents emotion and non relevent thinking from interfering with the solution.
> 
> My conclusion based on reviewing real world data is that vaccines reduce the risk of hospitalization and death due to Covid19 and the vaccines are safe. The odds of having serious problems with Covid are astronomically higher than having a problem with the vaccine itself.
> 
> ...


Well said.   I have quite a few friends in healthcare.  2 who are actually working in ICUs that are dealing with covid patients every day.   All it takes is actually talking to people like them who have no motivation to lie to know the truth


----------



## SidecarFlip (Oct 6, 2021)

Let me just add, without going into detail, because I prefer not to...  I have seen close up and personal people who are refusing to receive the vaccine and contracting Covid in the hospital and take my word for it, it's a terrible, gut wrenching sight to see it.  I have the utmost respect for the medical personnel who take care of them and a lot of them won't make it either.

So much easier to get vaccinated and even if you do contract it and are vaccinated (there is no 100% odds of not getting it), your chances are greatly improved that it won't be a life threatening ordeal.  In fact, from what I've been told by medical people is, if you do contract it and are vaccinated, it's tantamount to a bad cold or the flu.

In my view that is a helluva lot better alternative than expiring or dealing with down the road issues because of the damage it does to your lungs long term.

Been there and seen it close up and you don't want to get it and be unvaccinated.  Take my word for it.


----------



## Bad LP (Oct 6, 2021)

kborndale said:


> Everything covid related has unfortunately been politicized including fauci.  That doesn't mean that everything fauci says is automatically 100% false.


And it sure as hell doesn't make it correct either.
Just how much manure does someone need to spread before they lose their credibility? The guy has been wrong more times than not but I'm not keeping score.


----------



## Bad LP (Oct 6, 2021)

bholler said:


> How exactly did fauci bring politics into it???? *He was the man on the stage with our leaders both past and present*
> 
> And yes clearly the 2 week thing was wrong as was many other things said by many different people in the beginning.  We had no idea what to expect no one did. *Better to remain silent then and explain they were still studying it. *
> 
> Exactly what money was given to what Chinese lab when and on who's authorization? *An email was out showing that the center of disease control or whatever they called it who he was directly involved in sent the lab 150 million. (IIRC) Number may be wrong but it was a bunch of $$$*


See my responses. There are more news outlets than the typical networks where this stuff is well covered that our MSM ignores. It's not all tin foil.


----------



## bholler (Oct 6, 2021)

Bad LP said:


> And it sure as hell doesn't make it correct either.
> Just how much manure does someone need to spread before they lose their credibility? The guy has been wrong more times than not but I'm not keeping score.


Everyone was wrong in the beginning because no one had any idea how bad things would get.   Can you give us an example of someone who got it right the whole time?


----------



## bholler (Oct 6, 2021)

Bad LP said:


> See my responses. There are more news outlets than the typical networks where this stuff is well covered that our MSM ignores. It's not all tin foil.


I don't pay any attention at all to the MSM.   Your responses have not provided any data or sources at all just wild claims.   I am going by official CDC etc data.  Where are you getting your info?


----------



## clancey (Oct 6, 2021)

No its not all tin foil...Disagreements come in because the people have just been busy doing other things and have not kept up on "many news stations and radio channels as well with the whole array of many many very different opinions and the history of it.. Fauci should be in jail and the vaccine is not what people say it is and until these busy people have more research in this vain of thinking it is just a waste of time here...In time they will understand but  these people just fully believe in what they are told by the authorities and to them "it is all apple pie" and the American way"...They are in their bubble and that's their life busy with other important things in their life.. So be it and maybe someday they might have more time and really want to get into the "whole hearted research" about the situation and what it could mean in the future.. Just my opinion...old mrs clancey


----------



## Fingerlakes Fireplace (Oct 6, 2021)

SidecarFlip said:


> Let me just add, without going into detail, because I prefer not to...  I have seen close up and personal people who are refusing to receive the vaccine and contracting Covid in the hospital and take my word for it, it's a terrible, gut wrenching sight to see it.  I have the utmost respect for the medical personnel who take care of them and a lot of them won't make it either.
> 
> So much easier to get vaccinated and even if you do contract it and are vaccinated (there is no 100% odds of not getting it), your chances are greatly improved that it won't be a life threatening ordeal.  In fact, from what I've been told by medical people is, if you do contract it and are vaccinated, it's tantamount to a bad cold or the flu.
> 
> ...


I did get it, as did many of my friends.
No, i am not hoping i get it again, but i am not doing a single thing to prevent from getting it again.
Other than (as before) eating healthy, and getting adequate sleep.


----------



## mcdougy (Oct 6, 2021)

The latest on London-area COVID-19 vaccination rates
					

173 new school-related cases are being reported, with the majority in students




					lfpress.com
				




These are our numbers as of today, It's been a hardline approach here in this province.  Anyone think it's working? Or are we just getting luckier than other places? The population of our city when the colleges and universities are open swells to aprox. 750,000. The students are back and many are foreign students at U.W.O.


----------



## fire_man (Oct 6, 2021)

It seems to me there are some that choose to follow logic and science, there are  others who follow who knows what.
The ones in the latter camp are overcrowding hospitals and causing this pandemic to linger so this impacts everyone.
The longer this pandemic goes on due to the unvaccinated (especially in parts of the world where it's hard to get the shot) the greater the chance of variations and the longer it  goes on. This is simple grade school science and plain old common sense.

The truth is that the actions of the misinformed are adversely impacting everyone.


----------



## Fingerlakes Fireplace (Oct 6, 2021)

fire_man said:


> It seems to me there are some that choose to follow logic and science, there are  others who follow who knows what.
> The ones in the latter camp are overcrowding hospitals and causing this pandemic to linger so this impacts everyone.
> The longer this pandemic goes on due to the unvaccinated (especially in parts of the world where it's hard to get the shot) the greater the chance of variations and the longer it  goes on. This is simple grade school science and plain old common sense.
> 
> The truth is that the actions of the misinformed are adversely impacting everyone.


_"The truth is that the actions of the misinformed are adversely impacting everyone_."

Very true. The misinformed are trying to force everyone to  buy into their idiotolygy.
Scared to death of covid, masks, forced vaccinations....


----------



## Grizzerbear (Oct 6, 2021)

fire_man said:


> It seems to me there are some that choose to follow logic and science, there are others who follow who knows what.


It's called their own beliefs and religion. Something that's suppose to be protected in america but that's a joke. We spend so much time ragging about China and it's coercive tactics and here in this very country we have half a population practicing the same chit with propaganda and ostracizing you if you don't follow suit with their beliefs. Science has done a lot of great things and has helped civilization immensely. That doesn't mean you have to completely live by it. The long term effects of the vaccine aren't known. Needless to say....I ain't vaccinated.


----------



## bholler (Oct 6, 2021)

I keep hearing people say fauci should be in jail over and over again.  Yet not one single person can tell me what law he has broken.

I keep hearing about the long term side effects of the vaccine.  But no one can tell me what those effects are.  Or why we should expect to see them from these vaccines when we havnt from other vaccines of the same type that have been in use for decades.

I keep.hearing people tell me to do more research and I will learn the truth that it's all a hoax.  But no one can provide any evidence to support that.

I keep hearing it's all fabricated by American politicians.  Yet no one can explain how those American politicians got the rest of the world to go along with their plan.


----------



## fire_man (Oct 6, 2021)

I've tried to understand some of the concerns people had with the vaccine and the answers  I get go something like this:

"My buddy said my other medications won't work anymore after I get the vaccine"
"I hear a microchip gets injected into you and the government can track you"
"They don't know what are the long term effects of the vaccine"

I never hear any specific references or sources from these people to back up their statements, just vague responses that they "heard" it was true. When I reference CDC, local Covid hospitalizations, and  other data which supports the vaccine is safe and effective, they refute it as all lies and propaganda.

There is just no reasoning with them. I've really tried to understand it but it just seems like they have a general mistrust of government and of scientific authorities who have some kind of hidden evil agenda. 

Cynicism towards our government  can be a good thing, but it can become dangerous when it causes people to blindly mistrust government regardless of the  supportive independent data.


----------



## kennyp2339 (Oct 6, 2021)

Aside from the politics we are all exposed to day in and day out, I truly think times are getting rougher, the days of the haves vs the have nots are starting to rear there ugly faces and the false promises of what American lifestyle at starting to surface. 
I would comfortably say without a doubt that 99% of us on this forum are feeling a squeeze more so now then these last 10yrs, inflation or lets say the dollars dropped value has caused many families that were treading water with just there heads out to breath to now re-evaluate there finances and make concessions and its not because the price of fuel went up or a bad regime in politics, we all simply road the wave, many of us did not save, we just spent and spent and now the wave is flattening and people are starting to realize that they were living well beyond there means or paycheck, it just so happens that we're coming out of a serious pandemic that took the lives of both healthy and people with underlaying health conditions, unfortunately due to the pandemic many people that fell into the catagory of non-essential employment lost there jobs or were forced to take lay offs, many folks found new avenues of employment, something that providing stability and moved away from restaurants or other service / entertainment jobs, now the pinch is to find help, but due to inflation costs, even $15.00 an hour on a job that 2 years ago paid $8.75 an hour doesn't cover simple expenses, we hear the loudest from this industry and we experience the issues first hand when we go out for something as simple as a hot cup of coffee.    
The best we all can do is get back to basics where you can, do you really need that 6 passenger suv when its just you, the wife and a child? Do you really need the 3500sq ft suburban house on the acre of land with the pristine grass and the 12k a year property tax? Or the 8 burner commercial gas range and 6 flat screen tv's throughout the house? (BTW these are the things that I want, so its easy for me to pick on myself here)     We all know the answer here, of course we want it, but we dont need it, we really need to re-adjust our eyes and look deep within to see and make changes from there.


----------



## fire_man (Oct 6, 2021)

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> Scared to death of covid, masks, forced vaccinations....


And  there are those who are scared to death of a pinprick


----------



## semipro (Oct 6, 2021)

There is *perceived *risk and there is *real *risk.
There are many that feel they are safer driving than flying when the vast preponderance of crash data shows otherwise.
The same with wearing a seat belt.
Many are confident in their facts despite overwhelming objective evidence otherwise - sad.
I don't admire that but I'm ok with that as long as their ignorance doesn't kill my immunocompromised wife or child too young to get the vaccine.
I rarely get sick, heal quickly, and get every vaccination I can.  I'm hoping what doesn't kill me makes me stronger.
Even a vaccinated person can get and transmit COVID while exhibiting no symptoms.
All this is why this vaccinated guy wears a mask around others indoors. I don't fear the vaccine or the COVID case I'd get now.


----------



## Grizzerbear (Oct 6, 2021)

bholler said:


> I keep hearing about the long term side effects of the vaccine. But no one can tell me what those effects are.


That's just it really. No one can tell you what the long term effects are...simply saying it is safe and effective isn't a good enough answer. Some folks have put their full faith in the government with their health. Some want physical proof. Not bad......just a different view.



fire_man said:


> I've really tried to understand it but it just seems like they have a general mistrust of government


That is the biggest reason honestly.


----------



## bholler (Oct 6, 2021)

Grizzerbear said:


> That's just it really. No one can tell you what the long term effects are...simply saying it is safe and effective isn't a good enough answer. Some folks have put their full faith in the government with their health. Some want physical proof. Not bad......just a different view.
> 
> 
> That is the biggest reason honestly.


You do realize the govt didn't develop the vaccines right?   In addition these vaccines are really no different than many others that have been in use for decades.   They use the same mechanisms to deliver a weakened version of the disease to your body so it will develop immunity.  This is nothing new at all.


----------



## bholler (Oct 6, 2021)

semipro said:


> There is *perceived *risk and there is *real *risk.
> There are many that feel they are safer driving than flying when the vast preponderance of crash data shows otherwise.
> The same with wearing a seat belt.
> Many are confident in their facts despite overwhelming objective evidence otherwise - sad.
> ...


I personally didn't really fear getting covid myself even before I was vaccinated.  I am a fit healthy guy who would have most likely been fine.   I did fear giving it to one of my elderly or immunocompromised customers.   Or my daughter when she had her heart defect etc etc.  I chose to get the vaccine and I choose to still wear a mask for the good of my fellow human beings more than myself.


----------



## Fingerlakes Fireplace (Oct 6, 2021)

bholler said:


> You do realize the govt didn't develop the vaccines right?   In addition these vaccines are really no different than many others that have been in use for decades.   They use the same mechanisms to deliver a weakened version of the disease to your body so it will develop immunity.  This is nothing new at all.


_"They use the same mechanisms to deliver a weakened version of the disease to your body so it will develop immunity"_
But if by body gets immunity by being exposed to FULL strength virus, that doesn't count


----------



## bholler (Oct 6, 2021)

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> _"They use the same mechanisms to deliver a weakened version of the disease to your body so it will develop immunity"_
> But if by body gets immunity by being exposed to FULL strength virus, that doesn't count


That depends how your body reacted to it.  It depends what variant you had etc etc.  Read the studies.   They are readily available and not all that complicated to understand.

Yes you develop some natural immunity from getting covid.  But you also risk dying from it in the process.


----------



## Fingerlakes Fireplace (Oct 6, 2021)

bholler said:


> That depends how your body reacted to it.  It depends what variant you had etc etc.  Read the studies.   They are readily available and not all that complicated to understand.
> 
> Yes you develop some natural immunity from getting covid.  But you also risk dying from it in the process.


I accept the risk. Why are you and your kind, trying to force me to get vaxxed???


----------



## semipro (Oct 6, 2021)

bholler said:


> But you also risk dying from it in the process.


Yep, that's the kicker.  That and killing someone else through transmission.


----------



## Fingerlakes Fireplace (Oct 6, 2021)

semipro said:


> Yep, that's the kicker.  That and killing someone else through transmission.


Transmission! You do realize that they claim that vaxxxed people spread the virus as much as normal people???


----------



## bholler (Oct 6, 2021)

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> I accept the risk. Why are you and your kind, trying to force me to get vaxxed???


You accept the risk of infecting one of your high risk clients???   I care about mine and would rather not be responsible for their death.

And I don't ever remember saying I was forcing you to get vaccinated.  Or that I supported anyone else doing it for that matter.


----------



## semipro (Oct 6, 2021)

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> Transmission! You do realize that they claim that vaxxxed people spread the virus as much as normal people???


Think about how it's spread.  Do you cough more/harder after getting the vaccine or when you have the full-blown disease?


----------



## clancey (Oct 6, 2021)

Believe me bhollar we can answer everyone of your questions but it is a belief system because we have been lie to by the media and the president so many times. We have been censored with our opinions because we are not part of the socialists agenda's. Its all blame blame and "your a racist" as well as critical thinking mind games as they use their authorities against the very same people who have been stalked and lied about...They can take that vaccine and shove it to where the sun does not shine and if I get this virus again I will just have to be a big girl and take my chances. You believe in it good but let me have my beliefs too without the blame gain and the mandates because if the people in authority played a fair game to begin with everybody would be taking it and having trust in it...The agenda was not fair and there have been a lot wonderful people like the front line doctors who did the research and have been blasted with negatives by the main stream media. I believe what I believe and you believe what you believe...There are a lot of powerful people who run this world and one thing most of them believe in is eugenics and this if you do some research you will find this out for yourself. The two medicines were "outlawed" and world wide they because of their therapy saved peoples lives...Now they have a pill that is used for therapy and its the same idea as the one they outlawed because they could get a higher price..With the hospital protocols they killed my brother and there are some doctors who give right treatments and people lives are saved..One doctor in Africa gets all the mucus out of the lungs as he can and saved people's lives--many of them before that mucus hardens to where theyi cannot breathe..One is better off with natural immunity then the shot immunity but the corrupt authorities like fauci never discuss things of that nature nor give credit to people who already had it because now it is a blame game---you blame us for giving it to you because we do not what the shot with good reason..and then we are threatened and our work money and job is taken away from us after these wonderful professional people worked so hard to save peoples lives and they are making a quality decision according to their personal choice...Yea I could answer all those questions you asked but I think it is time for you to do the research for yourself. This is the USA and nothing should be mandated like the authorities and media and corporations are doing to us because we just do not deserve it...You could check out one ingredient that is in the shot and that sounds like graphine oxidate (sp might be wrong here)...Some of your people wrote that a person who was dying begged for the vaccine...Yea I saw a video of a mother who was screaming that her perfectly healthy son was dead from the vaccine and she cried and cried and screamed and screamed telling people in the (cannot spell this word--Sound it out--Caribeanian ) that her son is dead and "don't get the shot" because it is killing people...I cried when I heard that video...No I do not trust any of them and there are a lot of professionals who are giving up their jobs because they do not trust any of them either and these are knowledgeable people in the health world..clancey


----------



## bholler (Oct 6, 2021)

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> Transmission! You do realize that they claim that vaxxxed people spread the virus as much as normal people???


That is absolutely untrue.   Vaccinated people are much less likely to get the virus at all.  And in general carry a lower viral load which means they are not as contagious.

Again read the studies they are available.  And the article you sent me claiming the viral load was no different with vaccination linked to a study that showed viral load was on average lower in vaccinated people.  You can't just rely on an article.  Go to the source.


----------



## bholler (Oct 6, 2021)

clancey said:


> Believe me bhollar we can answer everyone of your questions but it is a belief system because we have been lie to by the media and the president so many times. We have been censored with our opinions because we are not part of the socialists agenda's. Its all blame blame and "your a racist" as well as critical thinking mind games as they use their authorities against the very same people who have been stalked and lied about...They can take that vaccine and shove it to where the sun does not shine and if I get this virus again I will just have to be a big girl and take my chances. You believe in it good but let me have my beliefs too without the blame gain and the mandates because if the people in authority played a fair game to begin with everybody would be taking it and having trust in it...The agenda was not fair and there have been a lot wonderful people like the front line doctors who did the research and have been blasted with negatives by the main stream media. I believe what I believe and you believe what you believe...There are a lot of powerful people who run this world and one thing most of them believe in is eugenics and this if you do some research you will find this out for yourself. The two medicines were "outlawed" and world wide they because of their therapy saved peoples lives...Now they have a pill that is used for therapy and its the same idea as the one they outlawed because they could get a higher price..With the hospital protocols they killed my brother and there are some doctors who give right treatments and people lives are saved..One doctor in Africa gets all the mucus out of the lungs as he can and saved people's lives--many of them before that mucus hardens to where theyi cannot breathe..One is better off with natural immunity then the shot immunity but the corrupt authorities like fauci never discuss things of that nature nor give credit to people who already had it because now it is a blame game---you blame us for giving it to you because we do not what the shot with good reason..and then we are threatened and our work money and job is taken away from us after these wonderful professional people worked so hard to save peoples lives and they are making a quality decision according to their personal choice...Yea I could answer all those questions you asked but I think it is time for you to do the research for yourself. This is the USA and nothing should be mandated like the authorities and media and corporations are doing to us because we just do not deserve it...You could check out one ingredient that is in the shot and that sounds like graphine oxidate (sp might be wrong here)...Some of your people wrote that a person who was dying begged for the vaccine...Yea I saw a video of a mother who was screaming that her perfectly healthy son was dead from the vaccine and she cried and cried and screamed and screamed telling people in the (cannot spell this word--Sound it out--Caribeanian ) that her son is dead and "don't get the shot" because it is killing people...I cried when I heard that video...No I do not trust any of them and there are a lot of professionals who are giving up their jobs because they do not trust any of them either and these are knowledgeable people in the health world..clancey


If you all can answer those questions why don't you?


----------



## clancey (Oct 6, 2021)

It would be a waste of time...clancey


----------



## bholler (Oct 6, 2021)

clancey said:


> It would be a waste of time...clancey


Why is that?

And here is something for you to read 









						Graphene Oxide In Pfizer Covid-19 Vaccines? Here Are The Latest Unsupported Claims
					

An Instagram post said, “There’s no other reason for this to be in here except to murder people.”




					www-forbes-com.cdn.ampproject.org


----------



## Grizzerbear (Oct 6, 2021)

bholler said:


> You do realize the govt didn't develop the vaccines right?   In addition these vaccines are really no different than many others that have been in use for decades.   They use the same mechanisms to deliver a weakened version of the disease to your body so it will develop immunity.  This is nothing new at all.


Yes, yes....I realize it wasn't concocted in the white house basement even though I wear a tin foil hat. But how much money was invested by the us government on the moderna vaccine alone. To act as if they have no hand in it.....come on now. And I don't care how similar the techniques are of it being made compared to previous vaccines, or how someone that is for vaccines can't comprehend the rationalization of those who won't get it. It really all boils down to folks trying to force others to get it which is wrong.


----------



## bholler (Oct 6, 2021)

Grizzerbear said:


> Yes, yes....I realize it wasn't concocted in the white house basement even though I wear a tin foil hat. But how much money was invested by the us government on the moderna vaccine alone. To act as if they have no hand in it.....come on now. And I don't care how similar the techniques are of it being made compared to previous vaccines, or how someone that is for vaccines can't comprehend the rationalization of those who won't get it. It really all boils down to folks trying to force others to get it which is wrong.


Yes the govt helped pay to develop them.  But they didn't have a hand in the actual development.  

Again I am not a supporter of vaccine mandates.  But I do support business rights to require employees to have them or a valid reason they can't.  I also support certain businesses being able to refuse service to those who are a much higher public safety risk due to their choices.


----------



## clancey (Oct 6, 2021)

Yea I notice the big headline ---unsupported claims--Ripleys here--Believe it or not...In time it makes blood clots and gives people heart problems.. Front line doctors are "unsupported" too by the media and they are knowledgeable, courageous and wonderful as well as the Kennedy childrens foundation information on health about the vaccines...My brother got the vaccine and in three weeks he was dead with blood clots in the lungs and heart problems and he never had any of those things before. He would have been 77 on May 4th and he died on Good Friday April 2nd the Lords Day who he loved so so much...Yea its personal here...I do not trust any of them for they have agendas behind the scenes and are just liars...pure stone liars just like the media. clancey


----------



## bholler (Oct 6, 2021)

clancey said:


> Yea I notice the big headline ---unsupported claims--Ripleys here--Believe it or not...In time it makes blood clots and gives people heart problems.. Front line doctors are "unsupported" too by the media and they are knowledgeable, courageous and wonderful as well as the Kennedy childrens foundation information on health about the vaccines...My brother got the vaccine and in three weeks he was dead with blood clots in the lungs and heart problems and he never had any of those things before. He would have been 77 on May 4th and he died on Good Friday April 2nd the Lords Day who he loved so so much...Yea its personal here...I do not trust any of them for they have agendas behind the scenes and are just liars...pure stone liars just like the media. clancey











						What the government data says about COVID-19 vaccine side effects
					

As of March 11, federal health officials say there is no evidence linking deaths reported after vaccinations and the vaccinations themselves.




					usafacts.org
				




I am very sorry to hear about your brother.  And yes some people have died from the vaccine.  That clearly is a horrible result.  But your chances of death is far far lower with the vaccine than without.  

Again if you choose not to get it that is your decision.  But if you choose not to there may be limitations upon what you can do.


----------



## bholler (Oct 6, 2021)

See how that works.   You provide data to support what you are saying.


----------



## Grizzerbear (Oct 6, 2021)

bholler said:


> Yes the govt helped pay to develop them.  But they didn't have a hand in the actual development.
> 
> Again I am not a supporter of vaccine mandates.  But I do support business rights to require employees to have them or a valid reason they can't.  I also support certain businesses being able to refuse service to those who are a much higher public safety risk due to their choices.



They helped pay for em. All I need to know.


----------



## bholler (Oct 6, 2021)

Grizzerbear said:


> They helped pay for em. All I need to know.


The govt helps pay for all kinds of research that you benifit from why is this different?


----------



## ABMax24 (Oct 6, 2021)

Covid has become a religion, no amount of data, fact, lies, or personal experiences will change a persons mind.

And just like religions have been for thousands of years, some will be led to salvation, and many others will be led to their graves....


----------



## bholler (Oct 6, 2021)

ABMax24 said:


> Covid has become a religion, no amount of data, fact, lies, or personal experiences will change a persons mind.
> 
> And just like religions have been for thousands of years, some will be led to salvation, and many others will be led to their graves....


Atleast here in the states it isn't just covid.  That has been happening before covid was here.


----------



## ABMax24 (Oct 6, 2021)

bholler said:


> Atleast here in the states it isn't just covid.  That has been happening before covid was here.



That disease has spread north of the 49th as well. I don't want to call it fundamentalism, because that's not exactly what it is, but in some ways that's exactly what it is.


----------



## begreen (Oct 6, 2021)

The comparison of a virulent virus to cancer is irrelevant. One is a clever and adapting virus and the other is a host of diseases.  They are totally different fields of medicine. Might as well compare to heart disease or alzheimers. The only link is that there is some hope for the knowledge learned about mnra vaccines may be applied toward some cancers.


----------



## Grizzerbear (Oct 7, 2021)

bholler said:


> The govt helps pay for all kinds of research that you benifit from why is this different?


General distrust of the government is the chief reason like I said earlier. Also....these drug companies all lobby and give campaign funds to our politicians for favorable legislation which isn't new. Politicians have stock in these companies.....which isn't illegal I don't believe....but sure creates a conflict of interest to me. Just rubs me wrong.

And it's not like I just have a bone to pick with the covid vaccine. I haven't had a flu shot for probably 20 years when I was a child and didn't have a choice. 

That being said I never thought you were trying to force anyone to get the shot. I can certainly understand why you did get it and am happy that your daughter is doing well. My wife is a rn....who voluntarily got the vaccine....and believe you me buddy.....she's asked me all these questions before.


----------



## Bad LP (Oct 7, 2021)

Well the whistle blowers are coming out of the woodwork. 
It appears Phiser (sp?) is using aborted kidney cells in their vac. CheckWRKO’s Jeff Kuhner in Boston on I Heart Radio this mornings show.


----------



## fire_man (Oct 7, 2021)

Grizzerbear said:


> That's just it really. No one can tell you what the long term effects are...*simply saying it is safe and effective isn't a good enough answer. Some folks have put their full faith in the government with their health*. Some want physical proof. Not bad......just a different view.
> 
> 
> That is the biggest reason honestly.


There is a mountain of independent data  that supports the vaccine is safe and effective and this data was not collected by any government agency. The problem is there are too many which chose to ignore this and instead turn to the dark internet to get their information.

What more evidence is needed than to see hospitals turning away dying non-covid patients because their rooms are filled with dying unvaccinated ?  The data highly supports that in areas of the country with higher vaccination rates this problem does not exist.

Too many are blinded by a complete mistrust of anything that has to do with the government, regardless of what the real world data says.


----------



## bholler (Oct 7, 2021)

Bad LP said:


> Well the whistle blowers are coming out of the woodwork.
> It appears Phiser (sp?) is using aborted kidney cells in their vac. CheckWRKO’s Jeff Kuhner in Boston on I Heart Radio this mornings show.


Just as fetal cells are used for many many other vaccines and medications.  This isn't some new revelation


----------



## Bad LP (Oct 7, 2021)

bholler said:


> Just as fetal cells are used for many many other vaccines and medications.  This isn't some new revelation


The show was saying this was the reason that religious exemptions  are not being accepted. Are the current vaccines you mention using aborted fetus cells? That's a real question and I'm not going into the choice arena.


----------



## kborndale (Oct 7, 2021)

Bad LP said:


> The show was saying this was the reason that religious exemptions  are not being accepted. Are the current vaccines you mention using aborted fetus cells? That's a real question and I'm not going into the choice arena.



Aborted fetal cells were used in the development of the J&J vaccine.  They were not used in phizer or moderna.


----------



## fire_man (Oct 7, 2021)

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> _"They use the same mechanisms to deliver a weakened version of the disease to your body so it will develop immunity"_
> But if by body gets immunity by being exposed to FULL strength virus, that doesn't count


Studies show the vaccines are far better at protecting from infection compared with natural immunitiy.
Find  one reputable study that says otherwise.


----------



## bholler (Oct 7, 2021)

kborndale said:


> Aborted fetal cells were used in the development of the J&J vaccine.  They were not used in phizer or moderna.


Yes it depends on the type of vaccine.  I knew atleast one did not.  But hadn't checked


----------



## brenndatomu (Oct 7, 2021)

fire_man said:


> Studies show the vaccines are far better at protecting from infection compared with natural immunitiy.
> Find  one reputable study that says otherwise.





			https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/09/15/natural-immunity-vaccine-mandate/
		

Natural immunity up to 27 times better...per the Cleveland Clinic


----------



## fire_man (Oct 7, 2021)

That is an interesting article - thanks for sharing.  Like the flu shot, I'd rather get the vaccine than the virus but the study is interesting.


----------



## SidecarFlip (Oct 7, 2021)

fire_man said:


> That is an interesting article - thanks for sharing.  Like the flu shot, I'd rather get the vaccine than the virus but the study is interesting.


Same here.  Why would anyone desire to get Covid and then survive it for 'Natural Immunity'.  Not me.


----------



## Grizzerbear (Oct 7, 2021)

fire_man said:


> There is a mountain of independent data  that supports the vaccine is safe and effective and this data was not collected by any government agency. The problem is there are too many which chose to ignore this and instead turn to the dark internet to get their information.
> 
> What more evidence is needed than to see hospitals turning away dying non-covid patients because their rooms are filled with dying unvaccinated ?  The data highly supports that in areas of the country with higher vaccination rates this problem does not exist.
> 
> Too many are blinded by a complete mistrust of anything that has to do with the government, regardless of what the real world data says.



That Cleveland clinic pretty much confirms my beliefs. I don't need data for my beliefs anyways. No i don't get on the dark web but nice generalization.


----------



## SidecarFlip (Oct 7, 2021)

Back on my original subject...  When I referred to a 'dark winter' I was referring to the lack of things like food and motor fuel.  Food seems to be getting more scarce at the local supermarket.  Necessities like TP, paper towels and fresh meat (especially) are getting hard to come by and the prices for what is there is skyrocketing.  Fuel (at least here) is way over 3 bucks a gallon now (last time I checked, the local filling station was at $3.20 for regular and diesel (in road) was at $3.39, quite a jump from just a year ago.

When the cost of necessities climb, spendable income drops and those with marginal incomes suffer.

We aren't in that boat but I'm not gonna pay 51 bucks for 2 T-Bone steaks either.


----------



## bholler (Oct 7, 2021)

brenndatomu said:


> https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/09/15/natural-immunity-vaccine-mandate/
> 
> 
> Natural immunity up to 27 times better...per the Cleveland Clinic


Thankyou for providing that.  It is a very interesting article with links to good reputable studies.  I will do more research into further studies later


----------



## bholler (Oct 7, 2021)

SidecarFlip said:


> Back on my original subject...  When I referred to a 'dark winter' I was referring to the lack of things like food and motor fuel.  Food seems to be getting more scarce at the local supermarket.  Necessities like TP, paper towels and fresh meat (especially) are getting hard to come by and the prices for what is there is skyrocketing.  Fuel (at least here) is way over 3 bucks a gallon now (last time I checked, the local filling station was at $3.20 for regular and diesel (in road) was at $3.39, quite a jump from just a year ago.
> 
> When the cost of necessities climb, spendable income drops and those with marginal incomes suffer.
> 
> We aren't in that boat but I'm not gonna pay 51 bucks for 2 T-Bone steaks either.


Yeah we are fine as well but our profits are certainly down.  Mainly because we didn't raise our prices as much as we should have to compensate for increased costs.


----------



## clancey (Oct 7, 2021)

Inflation is on the rise I think..clancey


----------



## bholler (Oct 7, 2021)

Grizzerbear said:


> That Cleveland clinic pretty much confirms my beliefs. I don't need data for my beliefs anyways. No i don't get on the dark web but nice generalization.


That pretty much says it all.  If not based upon data what are your beliefs based upon?


----------



## SidecarFlip (Oct 7, 2021)

bholler said:


> Yeah we are fine as well but our profits are certainly down.  Mainly because we didn't raise our prices as much as we should have to compensate for increased costs.


raised my per bale price on hay quite a bit (22 to 30 a round) and my customer has no issue with that but I'm not sure if that is even enough considering how the inputs are doing.  46 granulated urea (that is what I fertilize between cuts with has went up 50% already and like I said, I think, fuel is climbing every day.  Now I run tax free off road diesel which is about 50 cents a gallon less the on road because they remove all the taxes, but as on road climbs, so does off road.  There is no difference between on road and off road, it's all ULSD except the off road has red dye in it.

Having issues with my motorcycle parts I machine and fabricate in my shop too.  I'm going to have to raise the prices substantially to stay afloat.  Just had one customer chew me out about that like I can hold my prices at the level I was at a year ago.  Told him to go somewhere else if he didn't like it.  Problem is, I happen to be the only entity that produces the parts he wants.

I cannot change what is happening, wish I could.  Wish I knew the answer to this, I don't.

It's a viscous circle, inflation is and every one (consumers) get to pay to play.

Don't know what the end game is with it, but I don't like what is happening and I especially don't like how the current administration is ignoring it.  I don't get it at all.  I do get that fact that my money isn't going nearly as far as it did just a year ago,


----------



## tlc1976 (Oct 7, 2021)

SidecarFlip said:


> raised my per bale price on hay quite a bit (22 to 30 a round) and my customer has no issue with that but I'm not sure if that is even enough considering how the inputs are doing.  46 granulated urea (that is what I fertilize between cuts with has went up 50% already and like I said, I think, fuel is climbing every day.  Now I run tax free off road diesel which is about 50 cents a gallon less the on road because they remove all the taxes, but as on road climbs, so does off road.  There is no difference between on road and off road, it's all ULSD except the off road has red dye in it.
> 
> Having issues with my motorcycle parts I machine and fabricate in my shop too.  I'm going to have to raise the prices substantially to stay afloat.  Just had one customer chew me out about that like I can hold my prices at the level I was at a year ago.  Told him to go somewhere else if he didn't like it.  Problem is, I happen to be the only entity that produces the parts he wants.
> 
> ...


Lucky it’s only a matter of raising prices. For us it’s a matter of being able to find things we have always used and our equipment is designed around. One of the latest things is 10 gallon air tanks with large enough ports. Seems to be one thing after another anymore.


----------



## Grizzerbear (Oct 7, 2021)

bholler said:


> That pretty much says it all.  If not based upon data what are your beliefs based upon?



Faith, intuition are a couple. Do you lack these?


----------



## SidecarFlip (Oct 7, 2021)

Not looking good and the supply chain economics appear ( to me at least) to be staying broken.  I have an issue with the Ever Given in the Suez canal causing all this.  I believe all that was, was an excuse.


----------



## tlc1976 (Oct 7, 2021)

SidecarFlip said:


> Same here.  Why would anyone desire to get Covid and then survive it for 'Natural Immunity'.  Not me.


Yes natural immunity is great and probably better. But it’s a much higher risk because it’s a crapshoot as to how this virus is going to affect you. Many are willing to take that gamble. Not me, especially with the clotting problems I already have.


----------



## SidecarFlip (Oct 7, 2021)

In my case, I've had zero issues from getting the Moderna vaccine, in fact I just got my 'booster' last week and all I got was the usual sore arm.

Again, don't understand the 'natural immunity' thing at all.  Who in their right mind would prefer contracting Covid for natural immunity.  Someone insane maybe?

Contracting Covid is a 100% crapshoot at best.  You could contract it and have mild symptoms or you could wind up entubed on a ventilator or you could die, but in any case you'll do some suffering.  Much less 'painful' to get the vaccine in my view at least.

Being an adult, I made my choice early on and so did my wife.  We both got the Moderna as soon as possible, was a 'no brainer' for us.

For me, it was a no choice anyway.  I'm immune deficient in the first place.  far as masking is concerned, I wear an N95 mask when out in public like in a store or eating out.  Don't bother me at all.  I look at the mask as just another avenue of mitigation.


----------



## tlc1976 (Oct 7, 2021)

SidecarFlip said:


> Not looking good and the supply chain economics appear ( to me at least) to be staying broken.  I have an issue with the Ever Given in the Suez canal causing all this.  I believe all that was, was an excuse.


I agree, it’s been over a year in the making. I think everyone was given the memo that the world was shut down, but all that really stopped was leisure (dining, specialty shopping, gyms, sports, theater, concerts, gambling…). Commodities still were needed as much as ever. So the world’s backstock got depleted, cleaned out every nook and cranny where emergency stock was stored too. Now places need to work twice as hard to build that back up, but it takes a long time especially since most places run at capacity anyway.


----------



## bholler (Oct 7, 2021)

Grizzerbear said:


> Faith, intuition are a couple. Do you lack these?


Faith in what?

Intuition means nothing without some base of information to work from.

Again the fact that your opinions are formed without the need for data is very telling.


----------



## Grizzerbear (Oct 7, 2021)

bholler said:


> Faith in what?



God for 1, not that I have ever interpreted any reading in the bible against vaccines or medicine in general. Secondly, my body having it's own ability to fight covid and form it's own anti bodies without some man made crap put in my body that some people that I don't know say data suggests is safe. What if some day we find out that vaccines cause cancer, or alzheimers or any other sickness we still don't fully understand. I'm 33 and healthy as a horse. I'll take my so called poor chances. 



bholler said:


> Intuition means nothing without some base of information to work from.



Yes and from what I've seen of the majority of the folks that have gotten it....my own boss for one who is 59 with heart troubles and a chain smoker....its described as a bad cold or flue. His whole family of five got it. All fine.  I've seen multiple folks around here with it and they have all gotten over it. Yes I have heard of folks I know around here dying. Mostly old folks with compromised health factors. I can understand why certain folks get the vaccine. More power to them. I will rely on what I've seen to make my decisions for me.



bholler said:


> Again the fact that your opinions are formed without the need for data is very telling.



Telling of what bud, spit it out. Because I don't believe the way you do I'm less of a person. Go to hell.


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## bholler (Oct 7, 2021)

Grizzerbear said:


> Telling of what bud, spit it out. Because I don't believe the way you do I'm less of a person. Go to hell.


Telling of how an opinion can contradict what the world wide scientific community agrees upon.  And go against most known facts of the current situation.  No one ever said that makes you less of a person though


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## SidecarFlip (Oct 7, 2021)

tlc1976 said:


> I agree, it’s been over a year in the making. I think everyone was given the memo that the world was shut down, but all that really stopped was leisure (dining, specialty shopping, gyms, sports, theater, concerts, gambling…). Commodities still were needed as much as ever. So the world’s backstock got depleted, cleaned out every nook and cranny where emergency stock was stored too. Now places need to work twice as hard to build that back up, but it takes a long time especially since most places run at capacity anyway.


The other issue from what I see (and hear) is, people today don't want to work but prefer having the government support them.  I know that is a blanket statement and don't apply everywhere, but from the amount of 'help wanted' signs I see and the fact that at 71 and retired, I could be working tomorrow.  In fact I have employers calling me regularly asking me if I want to work for them.  I retired from a specialized field and that field is really hurting for employees or at least people who actually want to work.

If the 'workforce' is lacking then 'getting back up to speed' as far as products available to consumers (me included) will be very hard.

Interestingly, I have a good friend who is a plant manager of a concern in Indiana and he told me his facility has become a 'revolving door' as far as employees are concerned.  This outfit requires a negative drug test prior to employment and between the drug test and the attitude of perspective employees that want to start out at top wage and the fact that when they do actually hire a new employee, they work a couple days and never return, because at this company, manual labor is involved, they cannot find and retain employees.  In fact they are having staffing issues to the point where they were running 3 shifts but had to cut the 3rd shift because they lacked the employees to run it.

I'm pretty sure they would like to run at capacity but they cannot due to employee issues.

It's not hard manual labor (like digging ditches manually. but it does involve a 'hands on' employee.  Machines like overhead cranes do the heavy lifting but someone still needs to operate those machines and the skill level isn't all that high but like I stated earlier, they cannot find people and the ones they do hire, don't last long.

This company offers excellent ancillary benefits too like fully paid hospitalization, vacation time, personal paid days, profit sharing and employee recognition benefits as well as an excellent retirement.  I ought to know, I retired from this company but from one of their Ohio based operations.

If people really wanted to work, it would be nice.  It appears to me they don't or at least a percentage don't.  Not everyone can have a cush desk job, we still need people to do the 'grunt work' even though the manual labor with this company is pretty easy.

You don't start with any company at top wage, least no outfit I'm familiar with anyway.  Not even the auto makers do that.

I ought to know, I retired from one of their divisions.


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## SidecarFlip (Oct 7, 2021)

bholler said:


> Telling of how an opinion can contradict what the world wide scientific community agrees upon.  And go against most known facts of the current situation.  No one ever said that makes you less of a person though


That there is typical of what this society is producing today.  Zero respect for another persons views.  If I disagree with someone else's viewpoint, I'd never tell them to go to hell.  Just not right and certainly not acting like a mature adult either.  I never wish ill on anyone.  Was not raised that way.  I may not agree but I still keep my cake hole shut.


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## bholler (Oct 7, 2021)

Grizzerbear said:


> God for 1, not that I have ever interpreted any reading in the bible against vaccines or medicine in general. Secondly, my body having it's own ability to fight covid and form it's own anti bodies without some man made crap put in my body that some people that I don't know say data suggests is safe. What if some day we find out that vaccines cause cancer, or alzheimers or any other sickness we still don't fully understand. I'm 33 and healthy as a horse. I'll take my so called poor chances.


As I said before I didn't get the vaccine out of concern for myself.  I am 41 and in great health.  I am pretty sure I would be fine.  But there are plenty of people I come into contact with that very well may not be.   And there is the simple fact that the more it spreads the more chance it has to mutate into something that neither natural or vaccine immunity protects us from.


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## SidecarFlip (Oct 7, 2021)

I wish I was 41 again.  I'd do a lot of things differently.

While not germane to this discussion, I live by the tape measure rule.

Simply put, you take a tape measure and run it out to 100.  You put your finger on your age and then look back to the beginning and to 100.  Chances are you won't live to be 100 but looking back to the beginning and at your age, look at all the time you wasted and how little time you have left so make the most of that time because we all come to the end at some point.

How I look at every day now and every morning when I open my eyes, I say a silent prayer to the Lord for allowing me yet another day of life and I try to make every day the best I can because tomorrow may never come for me and you.

Life is a tenuous thing at best.  There are no guarantees.  All you can really do is make every day the best you can and hope there are many more.

Immortality is just a fantasy we all embrace.


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## begreen (Oct 7, 2021)

Taking chances based on faith is what killed the young Texas antivaxer, and left his wife and 4 kids without a father or income. It's what killed the Florida antivaxer and radio DJ that convinced thousands to not get vaccinated, many of which are now also dead. The fact is that it's Russian roulette taking chances on getting the disease for natural immunity.  What is worth the risking the possibility of taking down friends and family in order to stand up for some trumped up personal belief when there is a clear and safe alternative?


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## fire_man (Oct 7, 2021)

Grizzerbear said:


> Faith, intuition are a couple. Do you lack these?


I wonder how the Texas pastor who preached ‘faith over fear’ in the pandemic really feels now that both his parents died of Covid. Didn't work out too well for them. There are lots of stories out there where the pure faith thing didn't go so well.


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## Grizzerbear (Oct 7, 2021)

fire_man said:


> I wonder how the Texas pastor who preached ‘faith over fear’ in the pandemic really feels now that both his parents died of Covid. Didn't work out too well for them. There are lots of stories out there where the pure faith thing didn't go so well.



Still not concerned bud.


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## bholler (Oct 7, 2021)

Grizzerbear said:


> Still not concerned bud.


And absolutely no concern for anyone around you?  No concern about minimizing the chances of the virus mutating further which could be a serious negative impact on the country and world as a whole?

To me it is clear that the people who are strongly against the vaccine are only thinking of themselves and have no concern for how their decision may effect others.


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## Grizzerbear (Oct 7, 2021)

bholler said:


> And absolutely no concern for anyone around you?  No concern about minimizing the chances of the virus mutating further which could be a serious negative impact on the country and world as a whole?
> 
> To me it is clear that the people who are strongly against the vaccine are only thinking of themselves and have no concern for how their decision may effect others.



Your right I'm only concerned of my own well being. That's why I haven't gotten the shot.


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## bholler (Oct 7, 2021)

Grizzerbear said:


> Your right I'm only concerned of my own well being. That's why I haven't gotten the shot.


Exactly.  You are pretty sure you will be fine.  Who cares about the rest of the country and world.


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## Bad LP (Oct 7, 2021)

kborndale said:


> Aborted fetal cells were used in the development of the J&J vaccine.  They were not used in phizer or moderna.


Well that is not what was reported on the radio this morning.


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## bholler (Oct 7, 2021)

Bad LP said:


> Well that is not what was reported on the radio this morning.


Regardless of which one used fetal cells not all did.  So if that bothers you choose one that didn't.   And this was not a secret at all.  No one tried to hide it.  In fact it has been relatively common practice since the 1960s.


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## Bad LP (Oct 7, 2021)

bholler said:


> Regardless of which one used fetal cells not all did.  So if that bothers you choose one that didn't.   And this was not a secret at all.  No one tried to hide it.  In fact it has been relatively common practice since the 1960s.


No it doesn't bother me one bit however those against choice might have a slight problem. It's not like they were using stem cells or umbilical cord blood.


As for the supply chain I've been waiting for a fridge for the house (the dealer supplied me with a free brand new loaner) as of Feb 2021 so 8 months and nothing in the pipe line.


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## Grizzerbear (Oct 7, 2021)

bholler said:


> Exactly.  You are pretty sure you will be fine.  Who cares about the rest of the country and world.



Yea your right. You give me the number of people un vaccinated covid cases and the death rate for those people that contract covid. I'll bet that percentage of people that die from it is still really low.


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## clancey (Oct 7, 2021)

A long dark winter with waiting for a icebox that is somewhere in the supply chain..Your dealer was a thoughtful person to lend you one....good for him....hope mines stays good...clancey


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## bholler (Oct 7, 2021)

Grizzerbear said:


> Yea your right. You give me the number of people un vaccinated covid cases and the death rate for those people that contract covid. I'll bet that percentage of people that die from it is still really low.


Yes of course it is still low.  It is roughly 1%.  But that can easily change with a new variant.  

So you are saying you are perfectly fine with 1 out of 100 people dieing???  I personally am not.


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## fire_man (Oct 7, 2021)

it's not just the death rate that matters. Complcations due to Covid are much higher with the unvaccinated. This puts unnecessary strain on the health care system and on our supply chains.


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## Grizzerbear (Oct 7, 2021)

bholler said:


> Yes of course it is still low.  It is roughly 1%.  But that can easily change with a new variant.
> 
> So you are saying you are perfectly fine with 1 out of 100 people dieing???  I personally am not.


No I was being sarcastic about not caring but the reality is that we will never get rid of covid. Yes if everyone got vaccinated that could happen but there are always going to be unvaccinated people like me and there is always going to be a small percentage of people that die of it. There will always be people like me that choose not to get the vaccine no matter how much people protest or rant and rave about it. It's becoming a fact of life that I just never have been concerned about. People die of many things every day. This has just become another.


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## bholler (Oct 7, 2021)

Grizzerbear said:


> No I was being sarcastic about not caring but the reality is that we will never get rid of covid. Yes if everyone got vaccinated that could happen but there are always going to be unvaccinated people like me and there is always going to be a small percentage of people that die of it. There will always be people like me that choose not to get the vaccine no matter how much people protest or rant and rave about it. It's becoming a fact of life that I just never have been concerned about. People die of many things every day. This has just become another.


I just hope you don't turn into one of the stories of people who regretted not getting it because you or a loved one ends up with a really bad case.  And that wasn't sarcastic I really do hope that doesn't happen.


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## SidecarFlip (Oct 8, 2021)

clancey said:


> A long dark winter with waiting for a icebox that is somewhere in the supply chain..Your dealer was a thoughtful person to lend you one....good for him....hope mines stays good...clancey


Pretty typical right now and not just with appliances.  Seems as though new cars are in short supply.  Was reading about new car dealers around here that usually have a lot of inventory that have none.  Not that I'd ever buy a new car or truck anyway.  Been buying late model off lease vehicles for years now.

Seems as though appliances, if you can get any, are selling for top buck.

Wife needs a new dishwasher, keeps shutting off, so I spritzed the controls with WD40 and that seems to have cured it for now at least.


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## SidecarFlip (Oct 8, 2021)

Wife has been shopping for stuff like TP and paper towels online and that seems to be working so far.  Fed-Ex stops here almost every day now.

Gasoline is making the climb here, over $3.25 a gallon for regular weasel pee.  I dread thinking about what off road diesel will cost next season.  I typically use around 300 gallons when I farm.  I try to be frugal with it anyway.  Used to let my tractors idle when not working to keep the ac running and the cabs cool.  I quit doing that this last season and I've been running them below pto speed if the implement works as I need it to.

Our current administration has really screwed up everything far as consumables go.  No, I didn't vote for them.


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## begreen (Oct 8, 2021)

Congrats. 8 pages without politics. Let's keep it that way. Blaming current consumable issues on the current administration is disingenuous. There are global issues at play and we are joined at the hip to the rest of the world economically. This is definitely the case for fuel.

The supply chain issues have several factors that have crippled it due in large part industry dependencies on just in time shipping. With no inventories, and partial staffing due to covid, the whole system is dealing with the aftershocks. They can not make a car or a cellphone unless all the parts are there and the assembly line is ready to run.


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## clancey (Oct 8, 2021)

Don't thank us too soon...clancey


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## SidecarFlip (Oct 8, 2021)

Gasoline is going up almost daily around here.  Same with diesel.  Just topped off both farm tractors with off road diesel which is tax exempt, but it still cost me almost 70 bucks for each one.  I like to keep them as full as possible when it gets cold out because full fuel tanks lessen the chance of condensation and the growth of algae.

I'm gonna make a prediction and that is, regular unleaded will be $4.00 by Christmas.  I dread thinking about filling up the Suburban and it don't like the cheap stuff anyway.  My little buggy no issue and it averages 39-40 mpg anyway.

Raised my prices on hay already but I might have to raise them some more they way it's looking.

America runs on gasoline so when the price gets outta sight, people will be driving less.

Sure am glad my heating fuel prices (corn) don't change and pellets weren't bad this year either but I'm optimistic about pellet prices next year.


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## SidecarFlip (Oct 8, 2021)

Essential items like TP for instance can be had on the Internet and my wife handles that.  Fresh meat cannot however.  Menards was running a special on thick cut bacon at 2 dollars a pack under anyone else around here so I trundled down to get some the next day and the refrigerator case was bare...  Oh well.  Still have a couple packs in the deep freeze.


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## SidecarFlip (Oct 8, 2021)

begreen said:


> There are global issues at play and we are joined at the hip to the rest of the world economically. This is definitely the case for fuel.


We don't have to be with fuel.  We were a net exporter and now we are a net importer.  Please explain how that came about?


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## begreen (Oct 8, 2021)

SidecarFlip said:


> We don't have to be with fuel.  We were a net exporter and now we are a net importer.  Please explain how that came about?


The simple answer is that as a net exporter we sell to the highest bidder. Same as with corn. If Europe suddenly is paying 3-4x for corn, what will happen to the local prices? They're going to rise.
Longer story, global energy markets are in crunch mode, OPEC is holding back production, hurricane Ida messed up some refineries, a couple years ago oil exports were increased to offset the trade deficit, and demand in the US is high due to lots more traveling and vehicle miles happening.


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## Bad LP (Oct 8, 2021)

begreen said:


> The simple answer is that as a net exporter we sell to the highest bidder. Same as with corn. If Europe suddenly is paying 3-4x for corn, what will happen to the local prices? They're going to rise.  Longer story, global energy markets are in crunch mode, OPEC is holding back production, hurricane Ida messed up some refineries, and demand in the US is high due to lots more traveling and vehicle miles happening.


Not so fast. OPEC wasn’t able to play their ‘global’ game not so long ago. 
Nothing like getting on your knees while asking them for help at the same time.


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## begreen (Oct 8, 2021)

Bad LP said:


> Not so fast. OPEC wasn’t able to play their ‘global’ game not so long ago.
> Nothing like getting on your knees while asking them for help at the same time.


They have always been able to play their global game and they choose when and how to play it. And remember, there are many other big players in that game besides the US.  The US increasing fossil fuel exports a couple years back isn't helping us now either. Still, we are better buffered than Europe is. Like it or not, shrinking supplies and increased demand will create a price spike. This was predicted to happen back in January.


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## SidecarFlip (Oct 8, 2021)

One thing to keep in mind is...  As the price of motor fuel increases, the demand will drop as people will curtail their driving and... It will adversely impact vehicle sales as well and... it will also decrease spendable income as in people will conserve and spending will become more discretionary.  The cost of fuel has a wide impact on other industries and the buying power of the people.

I'm guilty of inflationary spending myself as I've had to increase the cost of my crop to cover the cost of fuel and lubricants so it's a vicious circle that the consumer always ends up paying for.

I cannot operate at a loss and stay in business very long.  neither can any other business for that matter.  I know steel for instance has increased at least 30% over the last 6 months.  I buy steel for the fabrication business I own.  I've had to increase my rates because of that.
Inflation and the devaluing of the dollar has dire consequences.


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## SidecarFlip (Oct 8, 2021)

begreen said:


> Europe suddenly is paying 3-4x for corn, what will happen to the local prices? They're going to rise.


Of course they are but keep in mind that the inputs (seed, fertilizer and herbicides and pesticides) will also increase as well.  The price of the crop may be higher but so will the inputs and fuel as well.  Crops don't plant or harvest themselves and they still ne fertilizer and pest control too.

I'll have to check on the current prices for seed corn.  Last year it was $330 a bag.  I'm pretty sure it's quite a bit higher now.  Why it's so important that the seed corn germs above 95%.  No one wants to pay for dud seed corn at 330 a bag.


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## begreen (Oct 8, 2021)

SidecarFlip said:


> Of course they are but keep in mind that the inputs (seed, fertilizer and herbicides and pesticides) will also increase as well.  The price of the crop may be higher but so will the inputs and fuel as well.  Crops don't plant or harvest themselves and they still ne fertilizer and pest control too.
> 
> I'll have to check on the current prices for seed corn.  Last year it was $330 a bag.  I'm pretty sure it's quite a bit higher now.  Why it's so important that the seed corn germs above 95%.  No one wants to pay for dud seed corn at 330 a bag.


I was just giving a generic supply and demand example. Covid has disrupted world markets big time in many ways, including affecting commodity supplies.


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## Fingerlakes Fireplace (Oct 8, 2021)

bholler said:


> Yes of course it is still low.  It is roughly 1%.  But that can easily change with a new variant.
> 
> So you are saying you are perfectly fine with 1 out of 100 people dieing???  I personally am not.


Um, but you support abortiom....


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## Fingerlakes Fireplace (Oct 8, 2021)

bholler said:


> Yes the govt helped pay to develop them.  But they didn't have a hand in the actual development.
> 
> Again I am not a supporter of vaccine mandates.  But I do support business rights to require employees to have them or a valid reason they can't.  I also support certain businesses being able to refuse service to those who are a much higher public safety risk due to their choices.


You dont support vaccines mandates, but you do support them. 
Do you always talk out of both sides of your mouth?


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## bholler (Oct 8, 2021)

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> Um, but you support choice....


Did I say that?


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## bholler (Oct 8, 2021)

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> You dont support vaccines mandates, but you do support them.
> Do you always talk out of both sides of your mouth?


I do not support vaccine mandates no.   Allowing consequences for not choosing to get vaccinated isn't forcing you to do it.  Just making the right decision more attractive.   I think maybe you should look up terms before commenting about them

Why is it you are all for people and businesses having free choice untill it interferes with your viewpoint?


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## Fingerlakes Fireplace (Oct 8, 2021)

bholler said:


> I do not support vaccine mandates no.   Allowing consequences for not choosing to get vaccinated isn't forcing you to do it.  Just making the right decision more attractive.   I think maybe you should look up terms before commenting about them
> 
> Why is it you are all for people and businesses having free choice untill it interferes with your viewpoint?


You are the one that has a problem. 
Until a year ago, it was my body, my choice.
Does not matter how many people die...


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## bholler (Oct 8, 2021)

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> You are the one that has a problem.
> Until a year ago, it was my body, my choice.
> Does not matter how many people die...


Again when did I ever say I supported forcing anyone to get the vaccine????


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## Fingerlakes Fireplace (Oct 8, 2021)

bholler said:


> Again when did I ever say I supported forcing anyone to get the vaccine????


Forcing=to make something happen or make someone do something difficult, unpleasant, or unusual, especially by threatening or not offering the possibility of choice:


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## bholler (Oct 8, 2021)

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> Forcing=to make something happen or make someone do something difficult, unpleasant, or unusual, especially by threatening or not offering the possibility of choice:


Again when did I ever say I supported forcing anyone to get the vaccine????

Why should people be forced to be around unvaccinated people who obviously don't care about the well-being of the rest of the country?


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## bholler (Oct 8, 2021)

Well it's a shame a couple people had to ruin the discussion but I have to close this.  Sorry guys.


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