# New Country PI40 Pellet Stove..why is glass dirty after 3 days?



## 3nickles (Oct 18, 2007)

I had a Country PI-40 Pellet Insert installed last season and am very happy with the unit overall, but I have one lasting complaint. This stove was advertised to have an air wash system which delivers an average of 30 days clean burn without cleaning the glass. The front panel glass becomes dirty after only about 3 days of burning (avg 6 hours a night, not all day burning). Needless to say from a maintenance standpoint I'm a little upset as this is one of the main reasons I purchased the stove. I've contacted the dealer but since they don't sell many of these they're not sure what the problem might be.

I have contacted Country directly and the tech's only suggestion was to increase the blower speed or high-altitude setting: I think they're one in the same but not sure. I'm waiting for my yearly cleaning so I can tell the installer to do this and I'm crossing my fingers it will work.

Has anyone had an experience with a Country Pellet insert or similar stove? Please share if so!


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## 3nickles (Oct 19, 2007)

friendly bump?


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## MrWinkey (Oct 19, 2007)

I'll bump ya on this and give my expirence.

With my Harman it depends on what kind of pellets I'm burning as to how often I need to clean the glass.  My stove also has the air wash system.  My stove pretty much burns 24/7 and I only turn it off to clean it.


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## begreen (Oct 19, 2007)

Can you describe the flue (exhaust) pipe installation? What size pipe, what length, how many elbows, how long are the vertical and horizontal runs and how is it capped at the end? Pictures would help.

At what setting are you running the stove? What brand pellets are you burning? Any corn?

There is a draft regulator on the stove (page 24) that should be completely open. Check that it is in the fully open position and screwed tight. There are clean out ports that should be in the closed position and screwed shut (page 20, fig. 45)

I'm not familiar with the stove, but if the feed rate is too high for the pellets being burned, the flame will be lazy, orange and sooty. On this stove it looks like this is totally controlled by the control board, so this would need to be checked by a technician.


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## 3nickles (Oct 19, 2007)

I believe the feed rate and everything else is automatic and it happens on every setting from 1 (low) to 5 (high).

I've mostly been burning Heartland with some Goldenfire, Uncle Jed's and Dejno's at a lesser extent. It doesn't appear to be related to the pellets as I believe that the first 2 are premium pellets.

Here's the scoop on the exhaust:

The connection points straight up and it's about 19ft to the top of the chimney. It's a pretty much straight shot and they used 3 inch flexible aluminum or stainless-steel pipe (not sure which). 

Country said that 3 inch should be OK for that height and they suggested to increase the blower speed or altitude setting. Not sure there's much else to adjust on this stove. It's all automatic except for the heat settings of 1 to 5. It works great. I just can't stand the dirty front glass


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## 3nickles (Oct 19, 2007)

that would stink if the pipe should be 4". They charged me enough on install and they would certainly balk at replacing the 3" with 4"

I talked to the tech at Country Stoves and he said 3" should be fine with that length but maybe he didn't know what else to say?

I'm waiting for the tech to come out and do their first 1 year service and cleaning and was going to ask them about the Altitude/blower setting adjustment. Other than that I don't know what else to do?


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## 3nickles (Oct 19, 2007)

I checked their website and it only shows 3" pipe. Doesn't say anything about a 4" option or higer runs?

http://www.lennoxhearthproducts.com/products/overview.asp?pid=464


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## 3nickles (Oct 19, 2007)

Thanks for the help ENORD.

I bet my dealer won't change the 3" out to 4" without me wanting to pay for it. There were several issues around the sale/installation the first time and it all had to do with money and wanting more!

Don't want to pi** them off for warranty service and pellet supply though... What to do?


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## 3nickles (Oct 19, 2007)

draFt adjuster
The Winslow™ PI40 insert has a draft adjuster located at
the right side of the insert directly in front of the combustion
blower. Should the insert installation require long runs
of vent pipe, a situation may be created where excessive
combustion air is flowing through the firebox and causing
the fuel to burn faster than it can be delivered to the burn
pot. Should this happen, the draft can be slowed down by
the adjuster. The insert is shipped with the adjuster in the
fully open position. To slow the draft down, loosen the 5/32”
allen head screw (A in Figure 45) and move the adjuster
handle toward the center of the insert. Retighten the screw
when the desired adjustment is reached.

I wonder if closing the draft adjuster (ships wide open) might solve my problem?


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## 3nickles (Oct 20, 2007)

enord said:
			
		

> i think thats going the wrong way. no harm trying. i love to mess with my englander!



Yeah, I thought the same thing of closing draft vent.

What does everyone think about the high altitude setting? Sounds like you can increase the exhaust blower setting. I'm wondering if that might work?


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## 3nickles (Oct 22, 2007)

b


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## 3nickles (Oct 24, 2007)

Well I called Lennox/Country and asked for tech support and described problem:

Says it might be one of the following:

1) Dirty burn pot (I don't know how it could be the burn pot with only 16hours burntime?)

2) Flue gas passages restricted (again don't think that's it because it did the same brand new with passages clean!)

3) Draft adjustor not open all the way (possible. Should have shipped wide open but who knows?)

4) Gasket on door leaking/bad (possible I guess)

I don't know what else to do. The guy at the dealer said he has the same stove burning same pellets and DOES NOT have this issue so something is definitely wrong!


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## 3nickles (Oct 24, 2007)

Yep. I'm thinking the same thing. Inadequate draft.

Just remembered that they placed the 3 inch cap INSIDE my existing 8 inch chimney cap. Said they did that so it would look stock and match the other houses around me.

I wonder if the cap within a cap is hindering draft?? HMMMM....


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## elkimmeg (Oct 24, 2007)

3nickles said:
			
		

> Thanks for the help ENORD.
> 
> I bet my dealer won't change the 3" out to 4" without me wanting to pay for it. There were several issues around the sale/installation the first time and it all had to do with money and wanting more!
> 
> Don't want to pi** them off for warranty service and pellet supply though... What to do?



 Here is what I would do if you have not already done this bring your manual with you to the building inspector's office and request a permit application and an inspection tell the inspector your concerns about the manual specs and what was installed After he fails it you have the leverage and excuse to demand it be installed according to manufacturer's specs that it failed imsection because they were not followed .  BTW permits are required anyways and should have heeen done before the installation It is real hard to help people out of these situations if we have no knowledge of the installation


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## 3nickles (Oct 25, 2007)

Well I got a call back from Country Stoves Tech:

Told him what was going on and explained about the manual and the reccomendation for the 4" above 15 foot runs. He said that's only a reccomendation and not a requirement. He told me that the Retailer can go into the control menu and increase the Combustion Blower Speed (also known as high altitude setting) which should solve the problem. Also stated that the setting is used for different vent configurations like mine where it's above 15 feet.

Does this sound like a feasible fix? I'd hate to have my combustion blower go out earlier because of having to run it at higher speeds?


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## begreen (Oct 28, 2007)

Ask the dealer what the change in RPM will be. Maybe it's not worth have a lot of angst about. I'd try the factory recommendation. If it works you are a happy camper.


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## MrWinkey (Oct 28, 2007)

I would follow Elk's advice.

If they say 4" I would put in 4"


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## F350R (Oct 28, 2007)

3nickles said:
			
		

> Well I called Lennox/Country and asked for tech support and described problem:
> 
> Says it might be one of the following:
> 
> ...



I have the same stove in a free standing model, if I may give a couple of my thoughts here.  I have not had any problems with dirty glass mine has been maintenance free since I bought it last year, personally I really like this stove it is very quiet and easy to run.

I did catch one post where you mentioned Heartland pellets, I had a ton of them that I bought last year and had many problems with the only three bags that I tried to burn and returned the rest.  This may not be the problem but I found those pellets to be very sticky and plug the auger as well as being very dirty leaving large amounts of ash.  Since then I have been running Lignetics and Heatrs which are much lighter in color and are not sticky or gummy feeling.

I don't what altitude you are at but my stove is at 6400Ft I actually closed the draft all the way down to keep it from burning more than is being fed on the lowest setting.  I wouldn't mind being able to close it down a little more as it still burns pretty fast on the lowest setting.  I also don't have a 19' run this stove is just a direct vent out 4' from the side of the house, my corn stove has a 7' run up the side of the house.  I know mine hasn't had the high altitude adjustment made I helped them un box and light it at the dealer before putting it on my truck.

Door gasket leaking is not likely either if I even think about opening the door the vacum switch shuts the stove down this stove is very sensitive in that regard.  I also have a corn burner in another part of the house, this one you can open it for several minutes before it will shut down.

Its possible that the Heartland pellets have gummed up the burn pot even after only 16 or so hours like I mentioned I didn't care for those pellets but yours may have come from a different plant or even a different batch and could be better than the ones I had.  I use a small stiff wire to clean out the burn pot holes and scrape the bottom of the pot every other week or so.  I don't have a problem with the holes plugging although one or two may get some crud in them every now and then it doesn't hurt to pull it out and check it once a week or so.

If its not the pellets and its probably not then I would get the 3" replaced with 4" the whole 19' I think that will give a better draft over all anyway.

Mike


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## begreen (Oct 28, 2007)

Good call Mike. Trying a few bags of another premium brand of pellets could be the cheapest and simplest test. What brand did you switch to? Are Lignetics (Idaho softwood) available to you?


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## begreen (Oct 28, 2007)

Hmmm. This is getting me thinking about starting some sort of pellet rating system as a wiki.


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## 3nickles (Oct 28, 2007)

Thanks for the advice guys. Guess I'll wait and see if the combustion blower (high altitude setting which increases blower speed) bump fixes it. If not maybe I'll have to ask the dealer to install 4" pipe.

Regarding Pellets: Same result and I've tried Goldenfire, Uncle Jeds' Cold Remedy, Dejnos and Heartland.

Side Note: Installer has same stove and said he uses Dejnos and Uncle Jed's and does not have this problem so I think I can rule the pellet quality out.


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## F350R (Oct 30, 2007)

Other than the Heartlands I can not say I have ever heard of any of those brands.  The Lignetics a very good brand that we can get in Colorado.  Rocky Mountain is another good brand at least it was last year I couldn't find them this year.  This year they had Heat'rs so I got a ton of those but haven't tried any yet, its still a little warm yet.  The Heat'rs are very light in color and are not at all sticky or waxy so they should have no trouble feeding.

Late last season I started mixing about 25 to 30% pellets in my corn stove.  I get a much cleaner burn and way less ash with barley any clinker build up.  I have a turkey fryer thermometer stuck in the heat exchanger tube it was running a good ten degrees hotter with the pellet mixture probably due to a better and cleaner burn.  The idea of mixing the pellets came about late in the season when I was running low on corn and wanted to stretch the supply out to the end of season.

By the way the Quadra Fire Mt Vernon in avitar was my first stove that I sold after one season.  The fans on the older models are very noisy and I could never get the heat out of it that I thought I should and since have proven it wasn't as hot as the stoves I have now.  My guess is the aluminum heat tubes that have to be protected from direct flames by the cast iron plates just doesn't let them get as hot.  Both of the new stoves have steel heat exchangers that the flame directly hits, they get hotter and hot faster.  I am a happy heater now.

Mike


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## 3nickles (Oct 30, 2007)

Haven't seen the Heatr's in the MW area but my dad gets down in Albuquerque and loves those pellets!

Waiting to see what the installer does when they come out to do the annual service on my stove this Thursday


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## richg (Oct 31, 2007)

Is this a top or bottom feed stove?


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## 3nickles (Oct 31, 2007)

It's a top feed stove Rich


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## bcollignon (Feb 8, 2008)

I have the same stove for about four years, and the glass has always been sooted within about 48 hours.  I never adjusted the draft blower as the stove delivers great heat!  For what it´s worth, I´ve only cleaned it once and replaced one snap switch myself.  I believe the igniter just went, but I haven´t replaced it yet, so I don´t know whether that´s really my problem.  I´ll report back once I´m through with that process.


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## 3nickles (Feb 8, 2008)

Hey Bill;

Glad to hear from you and I'm pleased that yours soots up in about the same amount of time. Kind of sounds like it's working as designed. They are great little stoves and really throw out the heat. I've just learned to deal with the "light grey" soot buildup and clean the glass once a week. Two heating seasons and almost 4 pallets burned and it's still working great. I'm using PRO-PEL ( PRO PELLETS) this season and they seem to burn fine although they have alot of dust (fines) in the bag. Only problem is that the auger has gotten really noisy a few times, most likely due to the build-up of saddust in the tube. I just let the hopper clean out and it eventually worked out and got quiet again.  That's my only complaint so far and it's been working great otherwise!


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## bcollignon (Feb 8, 2008)

I seemed to have gotten a great reply on this forum about the status of my igniter.  Apparently if the fuse blows and the pellets never ignite, then the igniter is definitely shorted out.  Forums like these are great, aren´t they?!  I´m just curious, have you cleaned the unit yourself, or are you using a pro?  I´m even thinking of cleaning the entire flue myself if I can find the right brushes.  We´ll see.


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## 3nickles (Feb 10, 2008)

Hey Good Question about the cleaning.

I paid to have mine installed and paid for the first year cleaning which was supposed to include cleaning the flue all the way up (via brush and or vacuum).

Short story. They cleaned the flue passages (instructions in the manual) and all the other easy stuff and then popped the clamp on the trap at the back of the stove and bottom of the flue. Vacuumed out what dropped via gravity. Then buttoned the unit up to go outside and brush/vacuum from the top of the flue out. Came back in and said "can't do anything from the top because installer sealed chimney flue on install." What the heck? I didn't know what to say or do but needless to say, they didn't really clean anthing inside the 3" pipe from the stove up to the top of the chimney (about 18 ft). 

I'm wondering if that is a problem and whether that really needs to be brushed or vacummed out? If so, how am I going to do that now that the installer sealed the top up?

Other than that, no problems yet and very happy with it..


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## bcollignon (Feb 11, 2008)

I doubt that the flue is sealed without any way to remove the cap.  That doesn´t seem maintenance-friendly, for one thing.  Eventually, any chimney is going to have to be cleaned.  Let me know what you find on that one and good luck.


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## deuce (Jan 11, 2009)

3nickles said:
			
		

> I had a Country PI-40 Pellet Insert installed last season and am very happy with the unit overall, but I have one lasting complaint. This stove was advertised to have an air wash system which delivers an average of 30 days clean burn without cleaning the glass. The front panel glass becomes dirty after only about 3 days of burning (avg 6 hours a night, not all day burning). Needless to say from a maintenance standpoint I'm a little upset as this is one of the main reasons I purchased the stove. I've contacted the dealer but since they don't sell many of these they're not sure what the problem might be.
> 
> I have contacted Country directly and the tech's only suggestion was to increase the blower speed or high-altitude setting: I think they're one in the same but not sure. I'm waiting for my yearly cleaning so I can tell the installer to do this and I'm crossing my fingers it will work.
> 
> Has anyone had an experience with a Country Pellet insert or similar stove? Please share if so!



3nickles:

I have a similar problem with my PI-40 stove. The sooting problem that you're describing is caused by insufficient quantity of combustion air. After a careful root cause analysis (see attachment), I found that the combustion air problem can be traced to the following causes: Draft (i.e., resistance in the exhaust), combustion blower speed (i.e., air flow volume to support combustion), Clinkers (i.e., obstruction of burn pot air passages).

To solve the sooting problem, I asked the stove dealer technician to do the following:

Draft: Check the damper/draft to control to ensure it was fully opened. The technician discovered that although the manual indicates that the stove is shipped with the damper in the full open position, the reality is that it's shipped in the "standard setting" with 3/4 inches restriction. I instructed the tech to open it fully to ensure unrestricted passage of intake air for combustion.

Blower Speed: The PI-40 blower speed can be adjusted by changing the high altitude setting in the control board. Using a diagnostic tool, this parameter can be changed from O (sea level) to 50 (unknown highest altitude). The higher the number, the higher the speed of the combustion blower to compensate for the lower density of air at high altitudes. Initially, we set the compensation to a value of 25 but after running the stove for a while at various heat output settings, I think that I need to set the compensation to a higher number because at the HIGH heat output setting, I'm still getting some sooting, which indicates that the stove is not getting sufficient air to properly combust the pellets at the HIGH setting. I ordered the diagnostic tool and plan to "tweak" the high altitude compensation to find the setting that provides the best air-to-fuel ratio (aka stochiometric ratio) for the high setting. One word of caution is that if the combustion air flow is set too high, the pellets will burn quickly and will not provide their maximum energy content.

Clinkers:  These silica deposits are formed due to impurities in the pellet composition, improper combustion, and by repeated heating and cooling cycles, which is typical of stoves that are controlled by a thermostat. The clinkers obstruct the air passages on the burn pot and reduce the combustion air flow to the combustion chamber, which in turn produces sooting and more clinkers. This is a self-perpetuating vicious circle that is more annoying when a thermostatically controlled stove goes into a normal shut down cycle but when the thermostat calls for heat again, the stove cannot reignite because the clinkers prevent the pellets from reaching ignition temperature. Vicious and obnoxious are words that come to mind! Although I'm burning Eureka Premiun Grade (low ash content) pellets, I've found that Eureka has a tendency to produce clinkers (I also have a Whitfield self-standing and clinkers are formed to a lesser extent). I will switch to Cubex or Quality, which I found to be less prone to clinker formation, if any. In addition, for the time being, I'm not controlling the stove with the thermostat to prevent heating and cooling cycles that foster creation of clinkers. Perhaps I will return to thermostatic control, if I can find the right pellets and the right combination of combustion air adjustments (aka: a stove's sweet spot) to preclude clinkers.

If all of the above fail and your stove still suffers from a sooting problem, your only alternative (short of returning the stove, as not all stoves are not created equal even same brand and model due to manufacturing tolerances - subject of possible future discussion) is to hook up the stove to take outside air for combustion. The reason is that the outside air is denser than the air inside the house because it's colder. The denser air packs more oxygen molecules per volume, which supports a better combustion.

I hope that my recommendations will help you attain Nirvana -- a soot free running pellet stove!

Now, since you have a PI-40, have you ran into any problems concerning the fire going out but there're pellets still in the hopper. The pellets are hung up on the hopper and never slide to the bottom to be picked up by the auger. Eventually, the auger starves and the pellets are not conveyed to the burn pot, and the fire dies. I think that there are a good 10 - 15 lbs of pellets hung up on the hopper, which makes a 50 lbs hopper capacity stove effectively burn only 35 lbs of pellets without refill or human intervention (i.e., manually pushing the pellets to the bottom of the hopper). I have some ideas on how to solve this problem but wanted to find out if this is a common problem (In line with: Not all same brand and model stoves are created equal!)

Good luck 3nikles!

Very Respectfully,

deuce

PS: You may want to check the build up of flyash on your exhaust venting system. The PI-40 has a clean-out box to which the flue pipe is connected. You'll have to remove the right surround side panel (houses the control board) to access the clean-out box. The box has a latch that opens a door that faces the floor. When the ash is cold, you can a use a vacuum cleaner (preferably an ash vacuum cleaner) to clean out the flyash that has accumulated after prolonged use.


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## jhitche (Feb 2, 2010)

Just got a Lennox Winslow this year.    Had big problems till I got a diagnostic control.
Found out the stove as delivered worked great with Corinth pellets.     My supply for this year and next is LG
and they burn very dirty.     I have boosted the air with the altitude adjustment and most of the problems are gone.
Glass gets dirty after several days instead of after one day.

(When I tried the Corinth pellets the glass was clean for a week at the normal altitude 0 setting.)


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## base45 (Feb 21, 2010)

Dear Firestarter:
I also have a Winslow and am having trouble with it.  Where did you get a diagnostic control?  I am looking for the Diagnostic Tool kit for my Winslow Pi40.

Can you help?
Thanks, Anthony


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## jhitche (Feb 21, 2010)

base45 said:
			
		

> Dear Firestarter:
> I also have a Winslow and am having trouble with it.  Where did you get a diagnostic control?  I am looking for the Diagnostic Tool kit for my Winslow Pi40.
> 
> Can you help?
> Thanks, Anthony



You should be able to order it from any dealer that sells parts.
The control is a bit expensive so you may want to try other things first.      I may switch my 3 inch vent to 4 inch next to reduce or eliminate the fan boost.
I already use the outside air inlet.   Make sure the stove is kept clean too esp at the two ash traps behind the clean out pan.    Mine clogged long before the dealer said they would.


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## Turbo-Quad (Feb 21, 2010)

I have to clean my glass daily on my 2nd hand Quadrafire Mt Vernon (non AE).  I only have about a 6 foot run.  I clean the firebox and pot daily too.  It must be the pellets I'm using but I'm limited to one brand only.  I did notice that there was alot of ash in front of the air intake in the ash pan box and cleaned that out and it seemed to help everything run better.  I don't know how this would translate to your stove since it's a different brand.  I just felt like sharing.   :lol:


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