# Beta testing Woodstock's Ideal Steel Hybrid



## Flamestead (Dec 13, 2013)

Yesterday morning our Progress Hybrid went cold and was moved into a spare room to make way for a test version of the new Woodstock Ideal Steel Hybrid stove. My wife, of all people, signed us up as beta testers. We burn about 8 cord of wood each year, using wood as our primary heat source. In late January of 2012, thanks to this forum's suggestions, we lit up the Progress Hybrid (https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/progress-hybrid-install-pics.82465/). With no connections to anyone at Woodstock, other than being a customer, we feel pretty lucky to be a beta tester of this new stove (it should be a fun way to pass the winter evenings).

The PH is a good stove for us, in our big, drafty farm house (https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/wood-consumption-in-my-ph.95273/#post-1257855).  We have a 6" liner, insulated, in an interior chimney, 32' tall. Quite the draft the past few days (7 degrees out right now). As I noted, we burn about 8 cord {edit... oops, hit the post button too soon. I'll follow up with some pic's.)


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## Charles1981 (Dec 13, 2013)

you are just a big tease...

edit: spoke to soon!


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## Flamestead (Dec 13, 2013)

Here it comes...
	

		
			
		

		
	





But first the PH needs to move - this is soooo much easier than when it came in...


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## Flamestead (Dec 13, 2013)

Get the delivery "truck" out of the way...




and if only we could reach all the way in!


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## EatenByLimestone (Dec 13, 2013)

I love that thermal mass!  I bet that will radiate heat for hours!


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## Flamestead (Dec 13, 2013)

More standing around watching for me. Looks like a top vent. Didn't we ask for a rear vent?!



Yup, it is a top vent. But they did that on purpose, for easier shipping (big whew!).


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## Flamestead (Dec 13, 2013)

Venting in the right direction now. Note the taper down to 6". Also note the gasketed-on plate in the foreground {edit: on the backside}. This is a viewing port to the spring control for the additional as-needed cat air. {edit: fixed typo.}




Here's the side leg panels. My wife picked the colors and designs - I had a momentary moment of panic when I recalled a room she and my daughter chose colors for, but I think she hit it full-on with this combo.


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## EatenByLimestone (Dec 13, 2013)

I like those side panels

The stove looks better without the swimming lady.  It's not a bad looking stove.  If the got the gears off the top so it could be used for cooking...


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## Flamestead (Dec 13, 2013)

A heat diffuser sits inside above the cat...





And here's the cat...


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## Flamestead (Dec 13, 2013)

They took pity on me and did the burn-in at the factory, so much less new stove essence in our house. They also set it back further on the hearth than the PH (the PH is a side loader, and the Ideal Steel is a front loader, so we wanted a little more protection on the front). Because it moved back, and also because of the long tapered flue collar, they spent some time re-fashioning my tee. This is the only significant difference between the two setups - my Condar probe is now a bit closer to the stove.


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## Flamestead (Dec 13, 2013)

Time to let it do what stoves do...


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## Flamestead (Dec 13, 2013)

EatenByLimestone said:


> I like those side panels
> 
> The stove looks better without the swimming lady.  It's not a bad looking stove.  If the got the gears off the top so it could be used for cooking...



Yes, it sounds like they will have lots of options to customize (and simplify). The gears sit flat on the stovetop and have an allen screw as a centering stud. The centerpiece has a cut-out beneath it to provide the highest heat setting for cooking purposes.


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## EatenByLimestone (Dec 13, 2013)

How big is the firebox?


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## Flamestead (Dec 13, 2013)

EatenByLimestone said:


> How big is the firebox?



18" from front andirons to back, 22" side to side (I think it is a 3.2 cu ft box, but don't hold me to that!)

My wood is cut at 20" for the PH, and it goes in quite easily, but I don't think I'd want to have it any longer. With the side loading of the PH it would be easier to go longer because you are sliding the wood in on top of the last piece.


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## bjkjoseph (Dec 13, 2013)

ask them if they need you to beta test their firewood.


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## BrotherBart (Dec 13, 2013)

Can't wait to see how it does the job. Have I ever mentioned that I love big honkin steel stoves?


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## BrotherBart (Dec 13, 2013)

Yeah if you are loading E/W ya want an inch or so on each end for the gases coming out of the ends of the splits to burn.


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## Flamestead (Dec 13, 2013)

It wasn't their typical day, but the guys from Woodstock were great - made sure they had the stove set up as they thought it should be, showed me lots of its features, and patiently answered many questions. They didn't quite say "drive it like a rental", but they were clear that I wasn't to baby it. And we haven't. Still too early to give you a good feel for how it performs, but with this weather on the way, we are likely to gain some experience quickly...



{edit: botched attaching the NWS forecast, but the general idea is continued cold, with snow.}


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## webbie (Dec 13, 2013)

Looking good.....

Since the forum is not currently set up for blogging (something we've thought about, but have not yet implemented), it may be useful for you to blog about the stove long term on a dedicated blog (lots of free ones at wordpress, blogger, etc.) and then post it in your signature here. That way you control the content and it doesn't get off-track, plus you don't have to duplicate your postings here and elsewhere...

Up to you, but that's how I would do it...because forum threads come and go fairly quickly.


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## begreen (Dec 13, 2013)

Thanks for the detailed posting. We'll be watching for your first and following impressions.


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## mfetcho (Dec 14, 2013)

What a great gig!  Can't wait to hear the updates.


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## Charles1981 (Dec 14, 2013)

That is definitely a sweet looking steel stove. If there are wolves, skulls, and chainsaws as decorative side plates I sooo want to get rid of my encore and get this bad boy regardless.... lol.


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## alforit (Dec 14, 2013)

Charles1981 said:


> That is definitely a sweet looking steel stove. If there are wolves, skulls, and chainsaws as decorative side plates I sooo want to get rid of my encore and get this bad boy regardless.... lol.


 

That's awesome Flamestead !  Congrats !   Keep the updates coming,


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## aansorge (Dec 14, 2013)

Like nothing else on the market....way to go woodstock for being bold!  Some of the welds look like mine, but hopefully they'll get that figured out.

Nice to see another big Cat stove on the market.


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## Flamestead (Dec 14, 2013)

webbie said:


> Looking good.....
> 
> Since the forum is not currently set up for blogging (something we've thought about, but have not yet implemented), it may be useful for you to blog about the stove long term on a dedicated blog (lots of free ones at wordpress, blogger, etc.) and then post it in your signature here. That way you control the content and it doesn't get off-track, plus you don't have to duplicate your postings here and elsewhere...
> 
> Up to you, but that's how I would do it...because forum threads come and go fairly quickly.



Thanks Webbie and Begreen - I've gained a lot from the forums here, and wanted to return some eye candy. When I first joined I was nearly certain I wanted one particular stove, but members here had a tepid reaction to my choice, so I started sorting through the many favored stoves and manufactures here. Since then I have yet to see any alocades of my original choice, and I chalk that up to this forum and the members saving me from an expensive mistake.


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## nikolays (Dec 14, 2013)

Any info when it will go on sale?


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## Flamestead (Dec 14, 2013)

aansorge said:


> Like nothing else on the market....way to go woodstock for being bold!  Some of the welds look like mine, but hopefully they'll get that figured out.
> 
> Nice to see another big Cat stove on the market.


Yeah, I saw a nut underneath that could easily have been mistaken for some of my welding! But the overall feel is of a very solid box. It has the ashpan option, and unlike the PH, the pan is welded on (fewer gaskets, fewer chances for leaks). I just checked with a flashlight, and that long weld was definitely not one of mine.


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## Flamestead (Dec 14, 2013)

nikolays said:


> Any info when it will go on sale?


I think I read somewhere that they have a summer date in mind. I have the luxury of being close to the factory, so when we bought the PH we drove up to see it and bit the bullet before they had delivered any. And then sat here and suffered for months as other here started receiving their stoves and telling us about it.


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## gregbesia (Dec 14, 2013)

In addition to a nice new stove that you get to test, I admire the pictures of your property. Please keep us posted.


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## Todd (Dec 14, 2013)

Thanks for sharing, it will be interesting to see how it compares to the PH. I like the looks except for that big square door.


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## 1750 (Dec 14, 2013)

The basic stove has a clean, contemporary look.   I don't need the decoration, but to each their own.  Are the gears a stylized version of a functional trivet?  Maybe it just keeps the top from being marred by teapots and pans? 

Thank goodness they didn't bring out the version with the horizontal lady!

Thanks for posting this and taking such great pictures to document it.   Your old farmhouse looks beautiful.


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## AppalachianStan (Dec 14, 2013)

Flamestead said:


> Note the taper down to 6"


So this stove can run on a 8" chimney?
If the price is around $1500 this will be my next stove.


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## Flamestead (Dec 14, 2013)

AppalachianStan said:


> So this stove can run on a 8" chimney?
> If the price is around $1500 this will be my next stove.


I don't know about the 8" possibilities. They said the taper was to let it breath a little easier in the top-vent position.


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## Flamestead (Dec 14, 2013)

1750 said:


> The basic stove has a clean, contemporary look.   I don't need the decoration, but to each their own.  Are the gears a stylized version of a functional trivet?  Maybe it just keeps the top from being marred by teapots and pans?
> 
> Thank goodness they didn't bring out the version with the horizontal lady!
> 
> Thanks for posting this and taking such great pictures to document it.   Your old farmhouse looks beautiful.


Yes, the gears are for cooking on. My wife is voting for them to go away (looks-wise), and it is simple to do, but we have been running the tea pot on one of them.

My wife did a nice job with the pictures, and they tell the story much better than I do. The house is 1797 vintage, and is on the National Historic Register - a bit rough on the inside because we've been spending a lot on siding, windows, roof repair, etc. They originally heated it with a fireplace in every room, and had a summer kitchen fireplace in the cellar.


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## Flamestead (Dec 14, 2013)

Todd said:


> Thanks for sharing, it will be interesting to see how it compares to the PH. I like the looks except for that big square door.


Todd, our damper plate was a little off-kilter, but a call to Woodstock got us back in order, and we are just starting to get a sense of the degree of control. I've felt the first half of movement of the PH damper control (from wide-open down to mid-range) has little to no effect.The Ideal Steel feels more balanced in that regard. Right now we are burning a fairly full load, 520 stovetop and 500 degree Condar probe (about 16" of flue from the stove) - initial feel is same heat and more fine-level control than the PH.


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## Flamestead (Dec 21, 2013)

With the warmer weather we've been able to play with the stove (rather than just stuffing wood in it and burning as hot as we can). We did a couple of loads running N/S - most of the wood is cut for the PH at 20", but I have some shorter pieces that we've been saving aside for N/S loading. Very happy with these loads (seems to catch easier, with flames at the front fanning across the ends of the splits).

The air control on the low end is much more fine-tuned as compared to the PH. No back-puffing with the Ideal Steel. Able to take it down to any degree of secondaries I wish to. I want this for my PH!!


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## weatherguy (Dec 21, 2013)

How's it been heating your house in the frigid weather compared to the PH?


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## Flamestead (Dec 21, 2013)

weatherguy said:


> How's it been heating your house in the frigid weather compared to the PH?


I think it is pretty similar to the PH on the top end. It is slower to start a load in the Ideal Steel, and it takes longer to burn down a deep bed of coals (there is a stronger primary draft at wide-open with the PH). I think the PH gives us a more balanced heat at the top end. Practice with the new stove will likely cut down on the differences we get, but they are different.

We really need two stoves and more insulation (translation: we burned some oil when it was below zero with a wind).


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## HotCoals (Dec 21, 2013)

Heck when it gets down below zero f I bet most stoves struggle to keep up.


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## webbie (Dec 21, 2013)

HotCoals said:


> Heck when it gets down below zero f I bet most stoves struggle to keep up.



Most stoves simply can't. I can testify to this.....even in my last (1955 built) house with fairly modern updates, heating became very difficult when the chill factor was below about 10.

I like to think "all bets are off" when it gets that cold.


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## PapaDave (Dec 21, 2013)

Flamestead, the question has been answered on the width and depth of the firebox, but I'm curious about the height.
Looks fairly tall in there.


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## jack_90125 (Dec 21, 2013)

all I can add is not the right stove as I am in Iowa where 10 degrees or lower is quite common. even with the old stove it is all we use for heat.even the new stove the isle royale has no problems so far even double digit below 0 with wind has not been a problem.and we are quite comfy in 2500 sq ft.


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## Backwoods Savage (Dec 21, 2013)

We have burned wood for many, many moons now and during that time we've heated our house when it has been as low as -50 F. That certainly is not typical and we say that only once. More typical is that we will see from zero to -10 most winters and some winters we won't see any below zero. So far this year we've had only 2 nights below zero. However, this is still December. January and February to go through. We have had some problems heating with a couple stoves we've had but certainly not with the Woodstock Fireview. 

We had seriously considered a Progress but cancelled that order. Now I was informed just last night that my wife really likes this new stove so who knows what the future will bring?


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## EatenByLimestone (Dec 23, 2013)

Do you have any idea on how much it weighs?


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## fire_man (Dec 23, 2013)

Flamestead said:


> The air control on the low end is much more fine-tuned as compared to the PH. No back-puffing with the Ideal Steel. Able to take it down to any degree of secondaries I wish to. I want this for my PH!!



I've noticed with the Progress that if I want fine control of the secondaries, there is a critical maximum amount of wood I can load. It's somewhere around half full - but this is with very small 16" splits. If I fully load the stove, it's nearly impossible to control the secondaries. 

Good to know the Ideal Steel solved this problem! Now the problem is my wife says no to the new stove . 
She already put up with changing from VC Resolute to Fireview to  Progress.


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## Highbeam (Dec 23, 2013)

There is nothing magical about zero degrees outside temperature. If the heat source is making more heat than the house is losing then you will be warm. The trick is having a stove that can make that heat when needed but also be throttled down to not overheat you the rest of the year.

Great job on cat placement WS. I always liked that about the fireview, an easy to access cat right on top.

Not sold on all of the extra fancy schmancy decorative steel jive. It is as though WS thought that going from stone to steel meant that they had to compensate for lack of beauty. The beauty is the simplicity of the big honkin steel stove.


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## Flamestead (Dec 23, 2013)

jack_90125 said:


> all I can add is not the right stove as I am in Iowa where 10 degrees or lower is quite common. even with the old stove it is all we use for heat.even the new stove the isle royale has no problems so far even double digit below 0 with wind has not been a problem.and we are quite comfy in 2500 sq ft.


Our house is old (1797). The house sits on a dry-laid stone foundation with an uninsulated front walk-out basement wall of brick - it is airy and exposed on the bottom. The walls are pre-2x4 vintage, the wall cavity is 3" at best. I would be hesitant to compare stoves using my heat loss and square footage as the basis without a generous old-house allowance.


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## begreen (Dec 23, 2013)

How has the burn time compared with the PH so far?


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## Flamestead (Dec 23, 2013)

EatenByLimestone said:


> Do you have any idea on how much it weighs?


No, I'm not sure. Certainly lighter than the PH. It does have a stone-lined firebox, but only decorative stone on the sides, and none on the top.


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## Flamestead (Dec 23, 2013)

PapaDave said:


> Flamestead, the question has been answered on the width and depth of the firebox, but I'm curious about the height.
> Looks fairly tall in there.


Not an accurate measurement because it is hot, but 15" from the bottom of the door frame to the top of the glass. Looks like probably a little more than that inside the firebox. There is a swinging smoke baffle at the top of the door, but we've had our locked in the up (retracted) position, with zero smoke issues. The secondaries baffle slope down toward the back, so less room as you go deeper into the box.


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## Flamestead (Dec 23, 2013)

begreen said:


> How has the burn time compared with the PH so far?



Definitely longer on the low end, and quite similar on the top end. We are in a spell of mid-30's, and I am having fun playing with the low-end control, but am still learning. 

Last night I did an 80% load of Red Maple at 10pm. Black firebox and stovetop at 520 when I went to bed at midnight. My wife opened the air a lot at 7am. At 9:30am I open the bypass and then raked coals forward, and finally added wood around 10am. I need to practice getting the cat lit but keep the load from getting quite so hot (trying for a lower peak to stretch out the load). This is an all-new experience for me on the low end, because the PH needs more air to keep from back-puffing, and my previous stove was of pre-EPA vintage.


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## begreen (Dec 23, 2013)

Excellent. This sounds like good big steel stove behavior. Nice that they are doing with very low emissions.


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## tcassavaugh (Dec 23, 2013)

really good info. appreciate the posts and updates. your area appears similar to my brothers about 15 miles SW of Bennington. lots of old farms in that area too.


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## Backwoods Savage (Dec 23, 2013)

Highbeam said:


> There is nothing magical about zero degrees outside temperature. If the heat source is making more heat than the house is losing then you will be warm. The trick is having a stove that can make that heat when needed but also be throttled down to not overheat you the rest of the year.
> 
> Great job on cat placement WS. I always liked that about the fireview, an easy to access cat right on top.
> 
> Not sold on all of the extra fancy schmancy decorative steel jive. It is as though WS thought that going from stone to steel meant that they had to compensate for lack of beauty. The beauty is the simplicity of the big honkin steel stove.



I'm really not sure why some seem to bash the extras that are available with this stove. If you don't like, then you do not have to have any and you don't have to try putting down the company for doing what they have done. If you like, then *you can design the stove to your liking*. It really is as simple as that. It was well known that some would like and some would not. However, this takes nothing away from the stove. And I know not where this came from about compensating for lack of beauty. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, whether that be a black box of a stove with some pretty design. It is sort of like buying a car. Some want only the basic necessary things while others want lots of extras. Each to their own. 

Long before the beta stove was built, Woodstock set out some goals and one of those was to have some fun! I see nothing wrong with that. One statement they made was, "We're definitely not designing another black box and we're not copying anyone else's work - even our own."

Notice that they stated they were not designing another black box. Yet we see that many seem to like the black box. So in those cases, Woodstock has made it plain that they will acomodate the customer's wants. As for myself, my wife and I have discussed this already and if we do decide to buy one of these stoves, we already know what we want and it will have to be designed to our liking. It no doubt will have an outdoors man's and woman's theme and probably will have a whitetail deer somewhere on the stove and most likely it will be on the sides, sort of like that moose antler design. Very simple; it will be designed to our liking.


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## webbie (Dec 23, 2013)

I guess differentiation is the name of the game....or at least some think so. I'm not sure it's true, but if they are having fun, so be it. I always tried to have fun in my business - sometimes others don't get the joke.

I suspect most buyers will be looking at the HEAT and the PRICE....and to a lesser extent, the technology. Nothing wrong with black boxes and lots of glass. I was paging through my 1981 woodburners directory and you'd be amazed how many stoves were just like that! As some examples, the big Russo Glass View, the Proformer Z and many others....

The difference now is that - even with inflation - this thing is extremely reasonable comparatively and has advanced tech. 

Given todays buyers, I'd say put some electronics on the dang thing! Create an app for it. Of course, I'd run the price way up...which is why I don't design stoves. The last stove I actually worked on was a brand new Upland we started from scratch - I had Bob Cawley doing the design work for us. It was designed to meet EPA specs and all (1987 was when we were doing this). It was beautiful (as Bob designed all things)......but I chickened out when I heard horror stories about the backlogs and the costs for EPA testing (back then things were unsettled)>


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## Highbeam (Dec 23, 2013)

Backwoods Savage said:


> I'm really not sure why some seem to bash the extras that are available with this stove. If you don't like, then you do not have to have any and you don't have to try putting down the company for doing what they have done. If you like, then you can design the stove to your liking. It really is as simple as that.


 
Good lord Dennis, settle down. I am hardly bashing a stove by stating that I am not sold on the extra decorations. You need to calm down and be able to handle the fact that not everybody will love everything that woodstock may put on a stove.


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## Backwoods Savage (Dec 23, 2013)

You read something wrong Highbeam as I am far from being excited about that stuff. It just strikes me as odd.


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## webbie (Dec 23, 2013)

Backwoods Savage said:


> You read something wrong Highbeam as I am far from being excited about that stuff. It just strikes me as odd.



What does? That someone would comment in a thread asking for questions and comments? 

Why don't you guys take it to PM before you ruin a valuable thread? No need for every one of these WS threads to be like this...


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## Backwoods Savage (Dec 23, 2013)

No need as there is no argument.


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## Stax (Dec 23, 2013)

Impressive size!


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## Flamestead (Dec 23, 2013)

Pretty secondaries. A little bit of glow at the top - the cat sits right above that and was doing its thing. Also note the glow on the lower right - no flame, but an air inlet on both sides of the door frame, similar to the PH's one inlet at bottom center.




When it has a super-mellow secondary burn going the flame on an individual secondary inlet will sometimes "float" (the flame "detaches" from the top, so there is a small ball of fire in midair). Very cheap entertainment.


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## DBoon (Dec 24, 2013)

webbie said:


> I suspect most buyers will be looking at the HEAT and the PRICE



I wouldn't be surprised one bit if the folks at Woodstock are trying to appeal to a large segment of men ("I want big, I want long burns and high heat, and I want it cheap since I need this thing to pay off quickly") and many times a wife who has a different idea for the stove ("It has to look nice, I don't mind a stove, but I don't want to look at something ugly").  

OK, these are pretty broad stereotypes I am painting, and I am sure that I'll take some grief for that, but we all know that some stove decisions get nixed based on appearance, so Woodstock is pretty smart to allow to have it both ways, and customizing is "in" as well.


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## webbie (Dec 24, 2013)

DBoon said:


> OK, these are pretty broad stereotypes I am painting, and I am sure that I'll take some grief for that, but we all know that some stove decisions get nixed based on appearance, so Woodstock is pretty smart to allow to have it both ways, and customizing is "in" as well.



Not any broader than "gearhead".......


I suspect things named gearhead will have gals in bikinis with a little grease on them holding a wrench....in the ads! Or, the same dudes who fit out their garages with nice epoxy two tone floors and floor to ceiling tool boxes.

Actually, my first goog image search on the term brought this up....so I'm not far off.


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## Hogwildz (Dec 24, 2013)

What does "gearhead" have to do with woodburning or a stove for that matter?
Seems just a fancy catch name. Oh and the "cool" logo on the sweetshirts they give out to their groupies I suppose.
Hope the stove does well. Not my taste, but who is to say tastes never change.
There are some things I did like when I saw it up close. But I am one that does not care for all the added bling.
Things are always changing, as are tastes.
Curious to see how it stand in the long run.


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## begreen (Dec 24, 2013)

It's still 6 months or more out from production. From the sounds of it, once on the market they will be happy to sell you one bling free if that's desired. It that comes in at $1500 and the stove performs well it could be a nice addition to the stove market. My wife won't let one in the house, but she can be a bit too fussy at times.


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## Backwoods Savage (Dec 24, 2013)

For sure I would not expect to see it out until late summer or early fall. However time will tell on that one. And begreen, I agree they can be a bit too fussy at times. Hope I don't get into trouble over that one....


And indeed, Woodstock is aiming at a totally different market than what they have with the soapstone stoves. I'm a bit sad that it will not be available with hinges on opposite sides. Just looking at our setup, it would be all wrong but if the door opened the opposite way then it might work.


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## richg (Jan 8, 2014)

begreen said:


> It's still 6 months or more out from production. From the sounds of it, once on the market they will be happy to sell you one bling free if that's desired. It that comes in at $1500 and the stove performs well it could be a nice addition to the stove market.



OK, a Woodstock catalytic stove for $1500.00? The only thing standing in the way would be clearances as I've got a corner install. Other than that, game on.


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## Charles1981 (Jan 8, 2014)

This stove is seriously supposed to come on the market under 1500 or is this just hopeful speculation thus far? That seems crazy.


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## mellow (Jan 8, 2014)

1500-2000 is the numbers I have seen thrown about,  nothing about it being under 1500.


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## Jags (Jan 8, 2014)

I have also heard the intent was to keep the stove under or about $2000.


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## begreen (Jan 8, 2014)

At the show they were dropping the "around $1500" number. It could be pure marketing, speculation or wishful thinking. We'll have to wait and see. The way the stove looks now I would have better luck with the wife putting in a BKK than this stove.


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## Highbeam (Jan 8, 2014)

That price is just too low.  A plain jane NC30 cost me 1100$ all in from a big box store. Good for woodstock if they succeed with it.


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## BrowningBAR (Jan 8, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> That price is just too low.  A plain jane NC30 cost me 1100$ all in from a big box store. Good for woodstock if they succeed with it.


Ha! $899 over here. Almost makes up for the outrageous Blaze King prices over here... almost.


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## BurnIt13 (Jan 8, 2014)

BrowningBAR said:


> Ha! $899 over here. Almost makes up for the outrageous Blaze King prices over here... almost.



$699 when I bought it!  Bought it on a sales-tax-free day and had a 10% off coupon too!  Came to $629 for me!  I think thats about as good as it gets!

Yup...for a BK Princess I'm at $3,500 without anything....even a door!

But to be more on topic....in a few years I might be moving and will be thinking of a new stove.  The Progress Hybrid and this Steel Hybrid are at the top of my list, mainly this one because of the price.

Plus I could drive out and pick one up myself!


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## mellow (Jan 8, 2014)

Ok guys,  keep it on track please.


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## BrowningBAR (Jan 8, 2014)

BurnIt13 said:


> $699 when I bought it!  Bought it on a sales-tax-free day and had a 10% off coupon too!  Came to $629 for me!  I think thats about as good as it gets!
> 
> Yup...for a BK Princess I'm at $3,500 without anything....even a door!
> 
> ...


I'm leaning towards the Woodstock Steel for the Kitchen to replace the Encore. The burn cycles I have seen indicate to me that it is controllable with 12-25 hours of usable heat, which is what I need.


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## begreen (Jan 8, 2014)

I thought that location was tight for clearances. Will a totally radiant stove work for you? There is no blower option on the IS (or any Woodstock wood stove).


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## BurnIt13 (Jan 8, 2014)

BrowningBAR said:


> I'm leaning towards the Woodstock Steel for the Kitchen to replace the Encore. The burn cycles I have seen indicate to me that it is controllable with 12-25 hours of usable heat, which is what I need.



Same here.  Load once a day in shoulder season or warmer weather, twice a day during polar vortexes. 

I could deal without a blower.  The blower on my 30 only turns on when I've screwed up and have nuclear secondaries and an 850F stove.  I would prefer a blower though, just because its nice to have when needed.


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## mellow (Jan 8, 2014)

And here I thought this was @Flamestead 's thread on how the beta testing is going.....


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## BrowningBAR (Jan 8, 2014)

begreen said:


> I thought that location was tight for clearances. Will a totally radiant stove work for you? There is no blower option on the IS (or any Woodstock wood stove).


I am planing on redoing the base of the fireplace which will give me 6-8" of additional room and block off the back of the chimney so less heat is trapped back there.

I am hoping Woodstock offers a blower with this steel stove, but if not, I will make do.


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## BCC_Burner (Jan 8, 2014)

I want Woodstock to build an 8 inch flue, 4.25 cubic foot version of the Progress Hybrid.  The Ideal Steel is neat looking and I'm sure will be a great stove, but I'm wishing for a giant PH a lot more.


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## BrowningBAR (Jan 8, 2014)

BCC_Burner said:


> I want Woodstock to build an 8 inch flue, 4.25 cubic foot version of the Progress Hybrid.  The Ideal Steel is neat looking and I'm sure will be a great stove, but I'm wishing for a giant PH a lot more.


Not going to happen. 4+ cu ft stoves have a very small market. Additionally, a 4.25 cu ft version of the Progress would probably weight around 1,100 lbs.


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## DougA (Jan 8, 2014)

BCC_Burner said:


> I want Woodstock to build an 8 inch flue, 4.25 cubic foot version of the Progress Hybrid.  The Ideal Steel is neat looking and I'm sure will be a great stove, but I'm wishing for a giant PH a lot more.



With the new EPA standards being discussed, there may not be any new 4.25 cu stoves with 8" flues. Just my speculation but a company is not going to want to spend a lot on R&D on something that has limited appeal plus may be obsolete (by law) in the near future. The other factor is that with new efficiencies, they are squeezing a lot more BTUs out of smaller stoves. 
I'm not saying I don't agree with you. I'd love a much bigger stove for these rare super cold spells. What good is a wood stove if you need to have the furnace on to keep the house habitable?  In the news, there are a lot of people who suddenly found their furnace to be unable to keep up either. Our old VC was at it's limit.

To keep on thread, I'd really appreciate an update on how well the steel hybrid has performed in the last week with all the super cold weather and wind.


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## begreen (Jan 8, 2014)

Me too. Let's wrap up the chat and let Flamestead carry on with an update.


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## BCC_Burner (Jan 8, 2014)

BrowningBAR said:


> Additionally, a 4.25 cu ft version of the Progress would probably weight around 1,100 lbs.



That's exactly the point.  I want a stove that I can build a house around, currently, there is nothing on the market that is worthy of that status to me.  I want a centerpiece, not a cute little stove.  I certainly don't need any more heat output in my current home, but I don't think a day goes by when I don't wish my NC-30 was larger.


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## BrowningBAR (Jan 8, 2014)

BCC_Burner said:


> That's exactly the point.  I want a stove that I can build a house around, currently, there is nothing on the market that is worthy of that status to me.  I want a centerpiece, not a cute little stove.  I certainly don't need any more heat output in my current home, but I don't think a day goes by when I don't wish my NC-30 was larger.


You want a masonry heater.


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## begreen (Jan 8, 2014)

Let's stop derailing the thread folks. Start a new one for you personal dream installs.


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## teutonicking (Jan 8, 2014)

The steel hybrid is a nice stove.  I saw it at the stove competition in DC in November.  According to WS staff, it puts out slightly fewer BTUs than the Progress Hybrid, but it burns longer.  I was also told it will be sold for somewhere between $1500 and $2000.


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## dave_376 (Jan 8, 2014)

begreen said:


> At the show they were dropping the "around $1500" number. It could be pure marketing, speculation or wishful thinking. We'll have to wait and see. The way the stove looks now I would have better luck with the wife putting in a BKK than this stove.



I showed the wife both stoves and she was eager in picking the BKK, there was no hesitation or positives about the appearance of the real steel. I will not be taking my wife stove shopping I will only show her the pictures of the stoves I like so she can't get any of her own ideas.


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## richg (Jan 8, 2014)

BurnIt13 said:


> $699 when I bought it!  Bought it on a sales-tax-free day and had a 10% off coupon too!  Came to $629 for me!  I think thats about as good as it gets!
> 
> Yup...for a BK Princess I'm at $3,500 without anything....even a door!
> 
> ...



$3500 for a Princess with no door? For that amount of money, I'd be expecting a weekend alone with Scarlett Johannson. As for the Woodstock Ideal, I'm interested as all heck.


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## Flamestead (Jan 8, 2014)

dave_376 said:


> I showed the wife both stoves and she was eager in picking the BKK, there was no hesitation or positives about the appearance of the real steel. I will not be taking my wife stove shopping I will only show her the pictures of the stoves I like so she can't get any of her own ideas.



We were apprehensive about the online appearance of several Ideal Steels before we got this one, but my wife did a great job on the color scheme, and to date we have had all positive comments from people that have seen it in person. Woodstock said people were drawn to its looks while it was being finished off, before they brought it down. Everyone loves the big, clean glass - quite a bit cleaner for us on the same wood and burning style as we had with the PH. Ash/dust show on the exterior (top and sides) of this stove a bit sooner than with the soapstone exterior of the PH.


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## begreen (Jan 8, 2014)

How has the performance been through the cold snap regarding stove temp, burn times, house temps, etc.?


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## Flamestead (Jan 8, 2014)

Here is a photo of tonight's fire, and of the new, shorter andirons they asked us to test. The andirons are several inches shorter than the originals. We find we are not tipping them out for loading, since we can load right over the top of them. It is +1 F outside right now, 425 F flue probe, 500 F stovetop, on the way down from a partial load burned hotter (and faster) than we usually do.


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## Flamestead (Jan 8, 2014)

begreen said:


> How has the performance been through the cold snap regarding stove temp, burn times, house temps, etc.?



The load pictured above was started by my wife about 2 hours ago, onto a bunch of coals. I got home right after she closed the bypass, and I was considering opening it back up to fill the other half of the firebox, but decided to burn it off hot instead so I could go into the night with a full load.

In this weather it has been quite similar to the PH in terms of burn times. We tend to burn in shorter cycles than I read of others here doing, and we probably need (waste) more heat than they do. In this cold we are not able to keep the house warm with just the wood, but when it warmed up to 20 F the other day the furnace stayed off and we were quite comfortable. This is very much an indicator of our leaks and poor insulation (there is a big gap under the front door, and the stone foundation has many leaks). We tore out a pantry beside the chimney and a bookshelf from the other side to try a different airflow into the living room. I think so far the most I've noticed is more cold draft at my feet here in the kitchen near the stove, but I suspect once the temperature moderates again we will be ahead.

So far nearly one cord through this stove. There was a door latch issue with the handle loosening that they re-engineered and appears to be completely fixed. I replaced the door gasket over the weekend to try a different style, and didn't do a great job at it, so when we have a warm spell I'll bring the door to them to get that fixed. Zero structural issues - it is a big, solid steel box, big door hinges, very simple damper.


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## begreen (Jan 8, 2014)

Thanks for the update. The fire looks beautiful and I agree, your wife did a nice job with the color selection. It's more understated and tasteful. The only two others I have seen are Brian Ks and the one in DC. I didn't like either of those schemes at all.


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## jdonna (Jan 9, 2014)

http://blog.woodstove.com/2013/12/early-news-from-beta-testers.html

The first video is of interest to me with the intermittent secondary flame.    Have you had that type of pattern on your test Flamestead?   If so at what air setting?   

I have enjoyed reading your posts keeps up the good work!


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## Flamestead (Jan 9, 2014)

jdonna said:


> http://blog.woodstove.com/2013/12/early-news-from-beta-testers.html
> 
> The first video is of interest to me with the intermittent secondary flame.    Have you had that type of pattern on your test Flamestead?   If so at what air setting?
> 
> I have enjoyed reading your posts keeps up the good work!



Yes, I've had identical burns - a lot of fun. One way to get there is to get a big load hot, early in the burn, and then cut the air way back. It is fun to watch the smoke lift slowly up off the wood, like a rising fog. I also like when each secondaries flame is its own hollow cone of fire.

I think I've had a few burns that started out as a black box, and then eventually started intermittent secondaries before settling into the low, steady roll. Not many low burns lately - sitting at +2F outside, again, although 40's and rain on tap for the weekend.

I'll clean the glass and see if I can shoot some video worth posting this weekend.


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## Dairyman (Jan 9, 2014)

How long does it take to get a load dialed in?


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## Flamestead (Jan 9, 2014)

Dairyman said:


> How long does it take to get a load dialed in?



About half an hour if starting bigger splits on a low coal bed (its primaries fan the coals much less than the PH's do), ten to fifteen minutes if medium splits onto a hot coal bed. Also somewhat a matter of how fast you want to reach cruising temp versus simply getting the cat lit and then setting the air to where you think it will level off at the temp you want (given draft conditions, load size, etc). Also east/west versus north/south plays a role, but we are almost always east/west since I cut all this wood for the PH.

My daughter is home from college for break, and is running the stove while we are at work - she says she loves how responsive it is to changes in the damper (feels like she has a lot of control).


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## jdonna (Jan 9, 2014)

Thanks for the update, I am watching on the fence right now. 

Any issues with back puffing when dialed in low?  On occasional instances when I have a burn, identical to what was posted in the video, it will be enough to push some smoke out of the air inlet.


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## weatherguy (Jan 10, 2014)

Flamestead, how high is the stove? I'm wondering if I can do a set up like yours at my house.


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## BrowningBAR (Jan 10, 2014)

I asked the same question to another beta tester. The measurements were "stove top is 28" wide, 23 1/2" deep and on the highest leg setting is 35 1/2" tall. On this Beta unit there is about 4" of adjustment on the legs so *minimum height would be ~31"*."


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## Backwoods Savage (Jan 10, 2014)

jdonna, give it a little more air if this happens.


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## Backwoods Savage (Jan 10, 2014)

weatherguy said:


> Flamestead, how high is the stove? I'm wondering if I can do a set up like yours at my house.



Weatherguy, don't forget the stove will have adjustable legs for height.


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## Flamestead (Jan 10, 2014)

jdonna said:


> Thanks for the update, I am watching on the fence right now.
> 
> Any issues with back puffing when dialed in low?  On occasional instances when I have a burn, identical to what was posted in the video, it will be enough to push some smoke out of the air inlet.



No back puffing at all. As a PH owner, I have experience in causing this (and avoiding, as Backwoods Savage recommends, with a tad more air).

Last night after I answered about the reload/dial-in time, I did my final load on top of more coals than usual (I was ready for bed). At 6 minutes I closed the bypass and immediately set the air to where I thought the evening cruise setting would be (normally I would let it burn longer before closing the bypass, and then let the temp climb more before setting the final air). Then I stayed up to watch what happened. The flames initially died back some and were slightly anemic, but then it settled into a nice, low secondaries burn. This took about 15 minutes from the time I closed the bypass and damper.Then I went to bed.

We have tried to make the Ideal Steel back puff and have been unable to.


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## Flamestead (Jan 10, 2014)

weatherguy said:


> Flamestead, how high is the stove? I'm wondering if I can do a set up like yours at my house.



I think ours is set on the lowest setting, but am not positive about that (they set it at the factory, based on me putting it into the same 'T' as the PH.

The highest point on the top is the hinge for the access door, at 34".
The back half of the top sits slightly higher than the front, at 32 1/2".
The front is 32" even.
The top of the rear flue is 31".

OK, BrowningBAR's answer was nagging me, so I pulled the leg cover, and sure enough, there is another hole for going down. At least another 1", possibly 1 1/8" lower. I think this beta is of the same general vintage as the one he is referring to, and since they are betas you would do well to confirm when the time is right.


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## weatherguy (Jan 10, 2014)

BrowningBAR said:


> I asked the same question to another beta tester. The measurements were "stove top is 28" wide, 23 1/2" deep and on the highest leg setting is 35 1/2" tall. On this Beta unit there is about 4" of adjustment on the legs so *minimum height would be ~31"*."


 


> Weatherguy, don't forget the stove will have adjustable legs for height.


 
I didn't know that, didn't come across that in anything I read about it, it's going to be between this and the PH for next year I think.
Thanks guys
 I'm liking the results so far on the IS, long burn times and plenty of heat.


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## jdonna (Jan 10, 2014)

Backwoods Savage said:


> jdonna, give it a little more air if this happens.





Flamestead said:


> No back puffing at all. As a PH owner, I have experience in causing this (and avoiding, as Backwoods Savage recommends, with a tad more air).



Yup, that is what I do to cure it.  There is an art to setting a stove just right.    Good to hear there hasn't been any whoofing or back puffs.   

I am often amazed that you can reload on a big coal bed and not experience a major runaway or overfire, not my experience with other stoves I have had in the past.   

Are you forward raking the coals or loading on a level coal bed?  



Flamestead said:


> setting





Flamestead said:


> We have tried to make the Ideal Steel back puff and have been unable to.



Awesome, love it!


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## begreen (Jan 10, 2014)

Flamestead said:


> We have tried to make the Ideal Steel back puff and have been unable to.


Try some poorly seasoned wood, get it burning, then choke it down until the flame goes out and it smolders. Let the firebox fill with wood smoke, then open up the door or air suddenly and it will back puff. This is not a fault of the stove. It is physics.


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## fire_man (Jan 10, 2014)

True, but some stoves  seem more prone to backpuffing than others even under ideal conditions using dry wood.
The fact that Flamestead can snuff it down after a 6 minute reload is a really good sign. Some cat stoves seem to have a tendency to backpuff if you smolder them down too quickly. 

It looks like WS has this stove dialed in real well.


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## Flamestead (Jan 10, 2014)

begreen said:


> Try some poorly seasoned wood, get it burning, then choke it down until the flame goes out and it smolders. Let the firebox fill with wood smoke, then open up the door or air suddenly and it will back puff. This is not a fault of the stove. It is physics.



True - I should qualify my statement to say that with our wood (2yr Red Maple) and good draft, we have tried and have not been able to get this stove to back puff, but with essentially the same wood I can make the PH back puff, and could occasionally get our old Tempwood to, also (and that would get your attention in a hurry). 

The airflow in the PH is different than the Ideal Steel. The Ideal Steel has two air inlets at the front, either side of the door (note the bright glowing at either corner). This is an improvement over the PH's single center inlet, leading to more uniform mixing of gasses within the firebox.


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## Flamestead (Jan 10, 2014)

jdonna said:


> ...snip...
> Are you forward raking the coals or loading on a level coal bed?



I generally rake forward, but last night's load was on top about 6"+ of big coals, with coals all the way to the back - much more than I normally reload on.

In warmer weather I like the biggest split to go in the bottom, back of a reload, with minimal coals back there, because it seems to stretch out the burn.


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## begreen (Jan 10, 2014)

Sounds like the stove is performing well. Thanks for the update.


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## richg (Jan 11, 2014)

I emailed Woodstock about clearances for this stove and was advised it will take another couple of months or so. EPA emissions testing is complete and the stove did well.


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## Elbinwyp (Jan 11, 2014)

Just a heads up, I talked with Woodstock and you can place your name on the reservation list for the ideal steel. No financial commitment. I was told they are confident it will be shipping well before the heating season starts.


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## jdonna (Jan 11, 2014)

Flamestead said:


> The airflow in the PH is different than the Ideal Steel. The Ideal Steel has two air inlets at the front, either side of the door (note the bright glowing at either corner). This is an improvement over the PH's single center inlet, leading to more uniform mixing of gasses within the firebox.


 
I had a suspicion to this.  I know with the fireview, there is sometimes a tendency to burn left to right as you face the front.


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## Flamestead (Jan 19, 2014)

Cold weather on the way, so we cooled the stove off and checked things out. About 1.3 cord burned so far. We swept the liner the day the stove was installed, and swept it again today, just to see. We don't sweep monthly with the PH, so no real comparison, but we were both quite pleased - about 1/3 cup of fine, light ash was all we got (32', 6" liner, interior chimney, swept bottom-up).

With the PH we have to periodically clean the cat (every couple of weeks in heavy burning). We last dusted this cat off two weeks ago, when we were cooled down to mess with the door gasket. This stove has a right-side bias to the air flow, and that shows up on the cat, with the right side just a little cleaner. I should note this is a beta version, the airflow was taken into consideration in the initial design, and is something they can tune, but not something I can do, and since it is not a pronounced difference we are continuing the beta-test as-is.

Here's the up-stream side of the cat, with two weeks of steady burning. This is cleaner than the PH cat would be, under our conditions, and this stove does not have the iconel screen that the PH has.


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## begreen (Jan 19, 2014)

Good info. I didn't know that the Progress's cat needed a dusting every couple weeks. Does the stove need to be cold to do this? 

That's an interesting note about the burn pattern. Are you rotating the cat 180 to get more even use out it?


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## jdonna (Jan 19, 2014)

Thanks for the update, the cat looks pretty good.   So the new designed cat is in straight rows instead of wound "Round and Round".   Makes a lot of sense to me.   

I would guess with the full stainless upgrade there is uniform expansion with frame and cat when it is heated opposed to a cast frame and stainless cat.   

Get that stove ready, the arctic air is making its way down!  Everyone enjoy the warm temps while they last.


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## dznam (Jan 19, 2014)

begreen said:


> Good info. I didn't know that the Progress's cat needed a dusting every couple weeks. Does the stove need to be cold to do this?
> 
> That's an interesting note about the burn pattern. Are you rotating the cat 180 to get more even use out it?




On our PH the screen needs to be cleaned every couple of weeks (of 24/7 burning) as it is almost completely plugged by then, and the cat needs to be cleaned at the same time.  The screen is cumbersome to remove/reinstall. The stove needs to be cold/cool to do this and that takes a fair amount of time given the mass of this stove.

This is a major gripe I have with this stove - try going without useful heat from the stove for a long stretch in the heart of burn season! We're lifetime 24/7 burners, have had 5  cat stoves and have never had to bring any stove except for the PH down for any reason - have only cleaned out cats at the end of the season with other stoves and I'm not sure it was ever really necessary. I contrast the PH's maintenance intensive nature to the Jotul Cat Firelight we burn now which has never needed cat maintenance during any burn season since we got it in '98. While it's only one guy's opinion, I try to dissuade friends from buying the PH for this reason and consider it an example of the "incomplete engineering" of this stove - especially the screen. Flame suit on ;-)

Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming...


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## webbie (Jan 19, 2014)

dznam said:


> This is a major gripe I have with this stove - try going without useful heat from the stove for a long stretch in the heart of burn season! We're lifetime 24/7 burners, have had 5  cat stoves and have never had to bring any stove except for the PH down for any reason - have only cleaned out cats at the end of the season with other stoves and I'm not sure it was ever really necessary. I contrast the PH's maintenance intensive nature to the Jotul Cat Firelight we burn now which has never needed cat maintenance during any burn season since we got it in '98. While it's only one guy's opinion, I try to dissuade friends from buying the PH for this reason and consider it an example of the "incomplete engineering" of this stove - especially the screen.
> 
> Flame suit on ;-)



Hey, given your list of stoves and experience, no one can claim you don't know what you are talking about. All opinions are welcome.......here.


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## Flamestead (Jan 19, 2014)

begreen said:


> Good info. I didn't know that the Progress's cat needed a dusting every couple weeks. Does the stove need to be cold to do this?
> 
> That's an interesting note about the burn pattern. Are you rotating the cat 180 to get more even use out it?



There are many varying reports on how often the PH cat needs to be cleaned off. I'm on the more frequent cleaning end of the spectrum - some say they check it and have no issues the whole season. Could be wood species, dryness, how full the firebox is filled, how aggressive the stove is burned, draft, ...). With essentially all of that held equal, the PH secondaries are more jet-like than the Ideal Steel's, and could be causing more turbulence, moving more ash into the exhaust stream. (Related to airflow, the Ideal Steel's glass stays much cleaner for us.)

The PH needs to be cooled down, but not cold, to get to the cat. We got into a habit of watching the weather forecast and the cat performance, and cleaning when it wasn't during a deep cold. We could also restart with the coals still in the stove after cleaning.

I was initially blaming the Ideal Steel's cat for the differences in how the stove burned on the left versus right, so we were rotating the cat, but saw no difference. I do continue to rotate it, but am not concerned since I talked with them about it and they explained the airflow.


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## DougA (Jan 19, 2014)

webbie said:


> Hey, given your list of stoves and experience, no one can claim you don't know what you are talking about. All opinions are welcome.......here.


Yup, if PH were the only way to go, I'm sure the prices would go even higher than through the roof. All opinions welcome. Of course, the Steel Hybrid may be different again on the cat. Small changes can make significant differences.


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## webbie (Jan 19, 2014)

DougA said:


> Yup, if PH were the only way to go, I'm sure the prices would go even higher than through the roof. All opinions welcome. Of course, the Steel Hybrid may be different again on the cat. Small changes can make significant differences.



Maybe in the future these will be like the CCD chips in my cameras, having a vibrate mode to clean themselves off! 

For me (or probably most burners), it would not be a big deal because we always let our stoves go out (NJ would have many warm winter days).....and it's prob not a big deal, but yet there is not a product out there which cannot be improved. They had the top-top designers and engineers on the PH project, but still there are things unknown until you get an infinite numbers of monkeys typing on an infinite number of keyboards.


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## rideau (Jan 19, 2014)

The screen has been redesigned, (third iteration) and, according to those who have it, is great.


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## HollowHill (Jan 19, 2014)

I usually clean my cat once a week, just because that schedule works for me, it doesn't need it.  I don't reload in the morning as I normally would and clean it in the early afternoon, which takes about 2 minutes, most of which is spent walking it out to the back porch to do the brushing.  Pop it back in, clean the glass, and I restart on the coals still in the firebox.  I haven't found it to be a big deal.


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## chipsoflyin (Jan 19, 2014)

dznam said:


> On our PH the screen needs to be cleaned every couple of weeks (of 24/7 burning) as it is almost completely plugged by then, and the cat needs to be cleaned at the same time.  The screen is cumbersome to remove/reinstall. The stove needs to be cold/cool to do this and that takes a fair amount of time given the mass of this stove.
> 
> This is a major gripe I have with this stove - try going without useful heat from the stove for a long stretch in the heart of burn season! We're lifetime 24/7 burners, have had 5  cat stoves and have never had to bring any stove except for the PH down for any reason - have only cleaned out cats at the end of the season with other stoves and I'm not sure it was ever really necessary. I contrast the PH's maintenance intensive nature to the Jotul Cat Firelight we burn now which has never needed cat maintenance during any burn season since we got it in '98. While it's only one guy's opinion, I try to dissuade friends from buying the PH for this reason and consider it an example of the "incomplete engineering" of this stove - especially the screen. Flame suit on ;-)
> 
> Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming...


Draft may have a lot to do with the screen clogging. With this cold weather our draft is strong as ive ever seen it. We've been running the 3rd gen screen for 2 months and there is very little build up. It looks like we will be able to go all season without touching it.


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## teutonicking (Jan 20, 2014)

rideau said:


> The screen has been redesigned, (third iteration) and, according to those who have it, is great.



I wasn't aware that they were on their third screen.  What's the difference between number two and three?


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## dznam (Jan 20, 2014)

webbie said:


> Hey, given your list of stoves and experience, no one can claim you don't know what you are talking about. All opinions are welcome.......here.



Thanks, appreciate the different (as in "supportive") environment here 

I was not aware that the screen is on its 3rd generation - when did that happen? I am now on screen gen2 which was (re) engineered to make removal/installation for the required routine cleanings easier.  Unless the gen3 was re-re-engineered to specifically reduce ash build up, it's unlikely to constitute a solution to the need to bring the stove down to do the cleaning. I will have to give them a call to find out.

I realize this will be less of an issue for non 24/7 burners, but man, I just hate to hear that furnace click on in our cold climate!


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## begreen (Jan 20, 2014)

It sounds like the topic of Progress Hybrid screen is worthy of a new thread. This one is getting off track.


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## Backwoods Savage (Jan 20, 2014)

Yup. Getting back on track, the Ideal Steel uses the same catalyst that is in the Fireview. As to how often it needs cleaning, we've mostly done once in winter and once during the annual summer cleaning and checking of stove but we could really do it only once per year. They also are continuing to improve the cats and I'll be curious with each shipment if they've made more improvements. That is good as it is never good to stop improving.


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## Comanche79p (Feb 9, 2014)

Any updates on the Ideal Steel?


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## Flamestead (Feb 9, 2014)

Comanche79p said:


> Any updates on the Ideal Steel?



We've put about 3 cord through the Ideal Steel now, and are finding nothing to complain about - it feels more like a production-quality stove than a trial model. The winter weather isn't giving us much opportunity to enjoy slower burns - we had mornings at -6, -10, and -12 this past week, and are expecting more of the same in a couple of days. We are keeping stovetop temp up around 600 as much as possible, so the stove is getting a good workout.

There is one piece of metal inside the firebox, at the top, back, holding the soapstone in place that is showing some fatigue from the heat, but when we passed that along they said the design had already been modified for that piece.

They have added a cut-out in the ash lip to indicate where the draft is set, which looks quite nice from the photos I've seen of it on newer versions of the stove.

Still no backpuffs, at all, and we all (wife and daughters) think the draft control is one of the best aspects of running this stove - very responsive, no run-aways, able to easily level off at desired stovetop temp.

We never flip the new, shorter andirons down to load. I almost always load with gloves on, and never loaded the PH with gloves on.

With the big front-loading door it is not as clean as the PH to run. No ash came out the door on the PH, but with this stove ash can collect at the seam of the door and stove body. If you are paying attention, you can just crack the door slightly and the draft will blow the ash back into the stove. If you are paying attention.

I never had a coal come out the door on the PH, but have raked coals too far forward in the Ideal Steel and had them come out onto the ash lip.

Definitely less cleaning of the cat than with the PH for our conditions. It would be interesting to try 3-yr wood or a different wood species in the PH to see if we noticed a difference. Our 2-yr Red Maple can have the PH drafting noticeably slower after two weeks of hard burning.

The glass gets a slight haze after a week of hard burning. I have not yet burned my hand on the andiron while cleaning the glass (impatient PH owners will understand that).

Woodstock has a few more beta-testers now, and there are some photos of different paint schemes on their website. My wife says if we buy one of these she wants to get a rack mounted on the side to dry things like mittens, etc.

I wish I had more 18" wood to play with the N/S burns, as this is the first stove I'd had where that was a possibility, and we really enjoyed the few N/S fires we've had.

So no complaints, and no signs of issues that will be sending them back to the drawing board.


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## 1750 (Feb 9, 2014)

Thanks for the great update.   I'm really enjoying your thoughtful observations.   

I'm curious why you enjoyed the N/S fires... N/S E/W all seems about the same to me.

And the mitten-dryer on the side sounds like a great idea to me.

Thanks again.


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## Flatbedford (Feb 10, 2014)

Just caught up. Sounds like Woodstock has done it again. I love our Fireview, but its just doesn't have enough oomph for my drafty old house. If the price is right, ths new stove is a better investment than insulation and air sealing (provided I keep producing my own "free" fuel).


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## begreen (Feb 10, 2014)

Nah, seal up those leaks and insulate. Your wood may be "free" but gas, machinery, and new stoves aren't. Tighten up the place and in addition to burning less wood (and keeping your current stove) you will also save money in the summer on AC.


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## Flatbedford (Feb 10, 2014)

begreen said:


> Nah, seal up those leaks and insulate. Your wood may be "free" but gas, machinery, and new stoves aren't. Tighten up the place and in addition to burning less wood (and keeping your current stove) you will also save money in the summer on AC.



I know what you are saying is the right answer, but to tighten up this old place any more than I have already would cost far more than a stove upgrade and another cord of wood per year... probably even over the next 15-20 years or so that we plan to stay here. When and if I have the money to really tighten the place up I will, but for now heating more affordably is more cost effective. We are talking windows, siding, insulation, etc. Bug (big) bucks.


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## Backwoods Savage (Feb 10, 2014)

I have to agree with begreen. But I understand what you are saying Steve. It has to be your decision but I can also understand why you like the new stove. 

Just a little jab; what are bug bucks?


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## fire_man (Feb 10, 2014)

Steve,

You are probably making the right decision to throw $ at a stove rather than tightening up the house. I spent big $$ replacing all my windows and insulating the attic, and still had a cold house with the FV. Then I bought the Progress and its DEFINITELY better, but still too cold (55F at times upstairs).

A second stove would have cost MUCH less than windows/insulation and would have heated this place like the tropics.

I think the problem is my house wrap is practically non existent.


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## Flatbedford (Feb 10, 2014)

Backwoods Savage said:


> ; what are bug bucks?



Believe it or not, they are even bigger than big bucks. Kinda like from million to gazillion.


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## Backwoods Savage (Feb 10, 2014)

Gazot you!


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## Flamestead (Feb 10, 2014)

1750 said:


> ...I'm curious why you enjoyed the N/S fires... N/S E/W all seems about the same to me....
> .



It is a novelty, for sure, as I've never had a stove where I had the option before. But beyond that, with the primary air coming in from the top, down the glass, and then into the wood, the N/S gives you a different burn than the E/W does. The Ideal Steel's primary airflow is not as strong as the PH's is - having the butt-end of the splits, along with the gaps between splits, seems to help get the stove up to speed more quickly. I haven't had much opportunity to test, but suspect I can get the stove up to cat-temp more quickly and then start to shut down the airflow earlier, before the entire load is up to the higher temps.

Lately I save the occasional short piece, and when I want quick heat in the morning I put one short piece in running N/S, and then put the rest of the load in E/W. That allows the primaries in under the load and gets air onto the coals under there. I stay right near the stove when I load that way.


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## Backwoods Savage (Feb 11, 2014)

Woodstock has made a couple of new posts on their blog. http://blog.woodstove.com/


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## Flamestead (Feb 11, 2014)

Flamestead said:


> ...snip... My wife says if we buy one of these she wants to get a rack mounted on the side to dry things like mittens, etc.



I think I need to start making all of my wishes known more widely - check out what arrived in the mail today, along with a nice note from Lorin that indicated she has seen this thread...


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## Flatbedford (Feb 11, 2014)

I'll bet following this thread and spreading the word about this great new stove would be much easier with a stack of 50s in my pocket.

Had to try.


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## 1750 (Feb 11, 2014)

Flamestead said:


> I think I need to start making all of my wishes known more widely - check out what arrived in the mail today, along with a nice note from Lorin that indicated she has seen this thread...
> View attachment 127221


I think that's a great idea.   Maybe I can cook something up like that for the 1750.


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## begreen (Feb 11, 2014)

I use the swiveling trivets on the T6 for drying wet gloves and socks a lot.


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## firefighterjake (Feb 12, 2014)

Flamestead said:


> I think I need to start making all of my wishes known more widely - check out what arrived in the mail today, along with a nice note from Lorin that indicated she has seen this thread...
> View attachment 127221


 

Hmmm . . . if anyone from Subaru is out there reading this I wouldn't mind a brand new STI . . . or BRZ.


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## Elbinwyp (Feb 16, 2014)

So I was on Woodstock's facebook page and they made a comment on one of the photos that the Ideal Steel is rated at 60,000 BTU while the Progress is rated at 73,000. Doesnt the Ideal Steel have a 0.4ft3 larger firebox? What would cause the Progress to achieve higher BTU's?


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## BrotherBart (Feb 16, 2014)

firefighterjake said:


> Hmmm . . . if anyone from Subaru is out there reading this I wouldn't mind a brand new STI . . . or BRZ.



Yeah if Mike has missed the hint, I wanna beta the new ESW Smartsove too.


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## weatherguy (Feb 17, 2014)

Elbinwyp said:


> So I was on Woodstock's facebook page and they made a comment on one of the photos that the Ideal Steel is rated at 60,000 BTU while the Progress is rated at 73,000. Doesnt the Ideal Steel have a 0.4ft3 larger firebox? What would cause the Progress to achieve higher BTU's?


 I was thinking it would be about the same or a little higher too, I guess there's more to putting out btu's than size.


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## fire_man (Feb 17, 2014)

Inquiring minds must know. I'm going to find out from WS the answer to that question.


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## Paul L (Feb 17, 2014)

begreen said:


> I use the *swiveling trivets* on the T6 for drying wet gloves and socks a lot.



New band name !


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## begreen (Feb 17, 2014)

LOL, good one.


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## fire_man (Feb 17, 2014)

Elbinwyp said:


> So I was on Woodstock's facebook page and they made a comment on one of the photos that the Ideal Steel is rated at 60,000 BTU while the Progress is rated at 73,000. Doesnt the Ideal Steel have a 0.4ft3 larger firebox? What would cause the Progress to achieve higher BTU's?



Tom at Woodstock was kind enough to offer this explanation:

"The simple answer is that BTU/hr rating has nothing to do with firebox size.  BTU/hr rating is basically a speed and efficiency rating.  The (1) greater the number of POUNDS OF WOOD consumed per hour, and the (2) higher the OVERALL EFFICIENCY the higher the BTU/hr output."

There may be further details eventually posted on the WS blog.


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## Backwoods Savage (Feb 17, 2014)

Thanks for checking that Tony.


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## fire_man (Feb 17, 2014)

I sure wish I could have Beta tested the Ideal, it seems like an amazing accomplishment.
My hearth would have been a nightmare rebuild since it's a front loader.


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## Backwoods Savage (Feb 17, 2014)

Same here Tony. That and the door opening on the wrong side. But it would still have been good to give that thing a good workout.


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## fire_man (Feb 17, 2014)

I'll bet WS would have lent us one of those fancy Hearth pads to help out with the test. Maybe a couple sheets of cement board would have worked for temporary testing.


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## weatherguy (Feb 17, 2014)

fire_man said:


> I sure wish I could have Beta tested the Ideal, it seems like an amazing accomplishment.
> My hearth would have been a nightmare rebuild since it's a front loader.


 Why wouldn't the IS work if the PH fits?


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## Woody Stover (Feb 18, 2014)

fire_man said:


> Tom at Woodstock was kind enough to offer this explanation:
> "The simple answer is that BTU/hr rating has nothing to do with firebox size.  BTU/hr rating is basically a speed and efficiency rating.  The (1) greater the number of POUNDS OF WOOD consumed per hour, and the (2) higher the OVERALL EFFICIENCY the higher the BTU/hr output."


Hmmm, that contradicts the well-worn hearth.com commandment, "Bigger fire box equals more heat....bigger space needs a bigger stove."
I'm gonna have to read more about this stove. Seems that I saw that the output can be dialed way down. Maybe I could run it without roasting myself out of this moderately leak, not-too-well insulated 1000 sq.ft. house....especially if we end up adding another room. It's always nice to have additional firepower when you need it....like all winter this year. 
I would love to have a seamless steel box that I can rear-vent. Not many of those to pick from.


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## fire_man (Feb 18, 2014)

weatherguy said:


> Why wouldn't the IS work if the PH fits?


 
The Progress is a side loading stove. The IS is front loading. There has to be at least 18" non-combustible clearance from the loading door, which for the IS is in the front. This is in case ebers are spilled.


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## fire_man (Feb 18, 2014)

Woody Stover said:


> Hmmm, that contradicts the well-worn hearth.com commandment, "Bigger fire box equals more heat....bigger space needs a bigger stove."


 
Think of a fireplace that can hold 5 cuft of wood. It can crank out massive BTU's, but since the efficiency is so low (most the heat goes up the flue), the BTU/HR delivered is very low. Efficiency is a key part of the equation.


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## jebatty (Feb 18, 2014)

Wife and I are considering a new wood stove for the house. We heat our house 24/7 with the wood stove, primary heat, regardless of outside temp/wind conditions. Our current stove new in 1990 performs well, but this winter's seemingly endless -20 to -35F nights and -teens days raised our interest. Therefore I have been following this thread.

Since I also have a Tarm gasification boiler and have done serious efficiency testing on Tarm, Froling, Wood Gun and Garn, I have lots of experience with 





> "The simple answer is that BTU/hr rating has nothing to do with firebox size. BTU/hr rating is basically a speed and efficiency rating. The (1) greater the number of POUNDS OF WOOD consumed per hour, and the (2) higher the OVERALL EFFICIENCY the higher the BTU/hr output."


. It would have been, still might be, very informative to do weighed wood burns with the Steel. At assumed available 6040 btu/lb of seasoned wood burned, we could see quite accurately btu input to the stove, and although calculating btu output is difficult with a wood stove, a person could take the advertised ratings, and then (rated output) / (weighed wood calculated input) = (efficiency). While this wouldn't be laboratory accurate, it would give a real world picture of actual stove performance in a wood burning user's environment. Maybe the weather is now too warm to do this, as an extended continous 24/7 burn period with high to maximum output likely would give the most accurate result.


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## jebatty (Feb 18, 2014)

I saw a comment that a steel piece inside the stove appeared to be stressed. Is it easily replaceable? Stressed or warped interior components, likely due to high heat, are red flags pointing towards future maintenance. 

Our 1990 vintage wood stove has a steel secondary burn plate at the top of the firebox, and I have to replace that every 2-5+ years because the high heat oxidizes the steel plate and it deteriorates over time. The mfr of my stove was no help in getting a replacement plate, so I now make my own and replace the plate at the beginning of the heating season if the existing plate show signs of deterioration. As to a replacement, I have found that the quality of the steel plate make a big difference in how long the plate lasts before needing replacement. "Big box" bar stock has burned out in 2 years, while bar stock bought from a local steel supply company lasts up to 5 years or longer.


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## Huntindog1 (Feb 18, 2014)

Woody Stover said:


> Hmmm, that contradicts the well-worn hearth.com commandment, "Bigger fire box equals more heat....bigger space needs a bigger stove."
> I'm gonna have to read more about this stove. Seems that I saw that the output can be dialed way down. Maybe I could run it without roasting myself out of this moderately leak, not-too-well insulated 1000 sq.ft. house....especially if we end up adding another room. It's always nice to have additional firepower when you need it....like all winter this year.
> I would love to have a seamless steel box that I can rear-vent. Not many of those to pick from.




Yep the bigger the fire box the more BTU's. A Cat Wood Stove with a  Catalytic Combustor  allows the stove to keep burning efficiently even when the stove is turned down to really low output Heat settings. Your BTU's are still there but are going to output over a longer period of time. The thing to remember when a stove is at its lowest input air setting. That means its at its lowest thru put air flow setting meaning the air flow thru the stove is so low and slow that more heat has more time to get radiated out into the room before flushing up and out the flue. Cat stoves can be turned down to lower heat output than non-cat stoves thus gettng longer burn times and more controllable heat. The steel with its Hybrid design with the best of both worlds has a really wide range of control while getting the max efficiency. For those of you new to this concept, Hybrid stoves have a cat (Like a cat only Stove) and secondary air baffles ( like non-cat stoves have).


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## Woody Stover (Feb 19, 2014)

I'm going to read through all the threads on this stove again but until I do that, can someone tell me what the ash system is? If it has a grate, this stove will be close to having everything I want, even though it's truthfully a bit large unless we add a room. Even then, the room will be well-insulated and sealed so the stove would still probably be more than I would really need. But if it can burn low enough....

Hey, I think I have another flue in the chimney I could use....I could be a two-stove guy. A shoulder stove and a polar vortex stove.


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## jebatty (Feb 19, 2014)

Is the question 





> the bigger the fire box the more BTU's


 or is the question the btu's actually delivered through heat transfer to heat the living space? I think we all could agree that a big firebox filled with less than well seasoned wood has lots of btu's but a whole lot of those are being consumed to dry out the wood and are not delivered as heat. And agree that a big firebox but inefficient combustion design, resulting in any or all of poor secondary burn, smoke, smoldering, excessively high flue temperature, also is not delivering the btu's as heat. As an outrageous example, my old OWB (granted, not a wood stove) burned 2-3 times the wood that my Tarm gasification boiler burns *and* delivered less heat to my heated space, *but* the OWB had a massive firebox compared to my Tarm.

I also agree that a stove with a big firebox combined with well seasoned wood, excellent combustion design, very good secondary burn, little to no smoke, and no smoldering delivers more btu's than a stove that does all the same but has a smaller firebox. Satisfying one parameter does not a good stove make.


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## fire_man (Feb 19, 2014)

I think the original question was " why does the Ideal Steal deliver lower BTU/HR than the Progress when the IS  has a bigger firebox".

The answer has to do with a balance between efficiency, burn time and emissions.


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## Flamestead (Feb 28, 2014)

jebatty said:


> I saw a comment that a steel piece inside the stove appeared to be stressed. Is it easily replaceable? Stressed or warped interior components, likely due to high heat, are red flags pointing towards future maintenance.



On our stove a simple piece that held the soapstone firebox lining in place at the top showed some heat stress. Woodstock said the design was already modified in more recent stoves (I think our stove is one of the earlier ones), so they will be gathering wear-and-tear data from the more recent beta testers on that aspect. Otherwise this stove has been what you'd expect from a big steel box - very rugged and care-free.

On a side note, based on their experience servicing the early PH stoves, the Ideal Steel was designed for easier access to individual components.


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## osagebow (Mar 1, 2014)

Thanks for the detailed info flamestead- got the wife on board and emailed WS to get in on the rollout.


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## _CY_ (Mar 1, 2014)

so how does a hybrid stove differ in operation from cat and/or secondary burn stoves?


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## Flamestead (Mar 1, 2014)

_CY_ said:


> so how does a hybrid stove differ in operation from cat and/or secondary burn stoves?



I have not operated a non-hybrid EPA stove, but I think the practical advantage is the controllable range of heat while exceeding the EPA requirements. Cat for the low end, secondaries for the upper end.


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## Elbinwyp (Mar 4, 2014)

I wanted to clarify something with the Beta testers. I am having a mason start some work on my existing masonry fireplace to accommodate the IS. I will likely be lowering and extending the hearth.
 In previous threads from Beta testers the stove depth was said to be 23 inches. However, the new information on Woodstock's website is saying the depth is 27 inches. Is the additional 4 inches from the ash lip? Also, I am a bit confused on the front clearance requirement. Lets assume the front clearance is 16". The stove sits ~4" off the hearth, the hearth is raised 6", so the stove would have to sit 6" from the front of the hearth to achieve the 16"?


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## Flamestead (Mar 4, 2014)

Elbinwyp said:


> In previous threads from Beta testers the stove depth was said to be 23 inches. However, the new information on Woodstock's website is saying the depth is 27 inches. Is the additional 4 inches from the ash lip? Also, I am a bit confused on the front clearance requirement. Lets assume the front clearance is 16". The stove sits ~4" off the hearth, the hearth is raised 6", so the stove would have to sit 6" from the front of the hearth to achieve the 16"?



Just call them directly. I think there might be a new rear heat shield, but they will be able to answer all your questions.


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## TheBean (Mar 5, 2014)

Elbinwyp said:


> I wanted to clarify something with the Beta testers. I am having a mason start some work on my existing masonry fireplace to accommodate the IS. I will likely be lowering and extending the hearth.
> In previous threads from Beta testers the stove depth was said to be 23 inches. However, the new information on Woodstock's website is saying the depth is 27 inches. Is the additional 4 inches from the ash lip? Also, I am a bit confused on the front clearance requirement. Lets assume the front clearance is 16". The stove sits ~4" off the hearth, the hearth is raised 6", so the stove would have to sit 6" from the front of the hearth to achieve the 16"?


The front hearth clearance for the IS is yet to be determined through official testing. It should be noted that the 16" clearance at the loading door side of a wood stove can not be reduced. The 16" minimum clearance is mainly for ember protection should a stray fall out of the door and roll away from the stove. Hearth height can be used to minimize clearances on the non-loading sides, but we as manufacturers usually list MINIMUM clearances. More is always better if you have the space


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## begreen (Mar 5, 2014)

By minimum side clearances do you mean the minimum hearth width? That is the clearance to the floor and not to walls on the side or rear of the hearth?


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## TheBean (Mar 5, 2014)

begreen said:


> By minimum side clearances do you mean the minimum hearth width? That is the clearance to the floor and not to walls on the side or rear of the hearth?


Sorry I wasn't clear. The minimum hearth width could be reduced. Not the clearances to walls to the side or rear.


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## mellow (Mar 5, 2014)

Im still waiting to hear if the Lintel height has been officially dropped to a 27.3" minimum for a rear vent fireplace install.


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## begreen (Mar 5, 2014)

TheBean said:


> Sorry I wasn't clear. The minimum hearth width could be reduced. Not the clearances to walls to the side or rear.


No problem, your input is always greatly appreciated. There's a lot of curiosity about the new stove.


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## TheBean (Mar 5, 2014)

begreen said:


> No problem, your input is always greatly appreciated. There's a lot of curiosity about the new stove.


We enjoy the Buzz around a new stove. We are all very excited as well. I think this stove will have a lot to offer to a lot of folks with different heating needs. From all of the pre-production interest it looks like it may be awhile before I get my hands on one!


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## rideau (Mar 5, 2014)

I would venture the guess that the PH puts out higher maximum BTU because it has periods where you cannot take it out of secondary burn into cat burn,  You can achieve a slow secondary burn, but you do get a secondary burn, and that burns your wood more quickly.  Hence, the PH does not get 20 hour burn times as a general rule, although it can be done.  The IS has direct dedicated air to the cat, so the cat will always have air for a cat burn.  Since the hybrid stoves are designed to burn in cat or secondary mode automatically when that mode is more efficient, I'm guessing  the IS will burn in cat mode more than the PH.  The PH sometimes won't revert to cat when it would be most efficient, because the secondaries starve the cat for air (although eventually the stove reverts to cat burn).    This is usually for a couple of hours on a higher burn, or when you aim for an extended high burn because of outside conditions.  Net result is that you can get more BTUs per hour out of the PH because you can burn the wood faster. 

When you are not going for maximum heat output, I find the stove combusts my wood very slowly and efficiently.


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## weatherguy (Mar 5, 2014)

mellow said:


> Im still waiting to hear if the Lintel height has been officially dropped to a 27.3" minimum for a rear vent fireplace install.


 No answer yet, I asked yesterday. Some changes may still be made but they wanted to get something on the website regarding the stove. I'll let you know if I hear anything, please do the same for me. thanks


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## Flamestead (Mar 10, 2014)

We haven't put our money down yet, but are quite sure we will be buying an Ideal Steel at Woodstock's introductory prices, as it is a pretty sweet deal all around for us - a chance to play with the stove for a season at no cost, and then a very nice price break for being a beta tester. (http://blog.woodstove.com/2014/03/beta-testing-and-pre-production-prices.html) We like the changes we've seen, like stovetop hinges moved out of sight, and I'm quite excited about the chance to have a cat probe on one of these stoves (there will be a port on the front). We think we will stay with our original color scheme and embellishments, although likely just get the one center-piece and forego the gears. As Woodstock transitions to production mode for the Ideal Steel, they are already talking about another new stove in the works (hmmm - should we hold off on buying an Ideal Steel?).

We haven't had much new to report the past month, as we were simply trying to run as hot as we could. We kept it up in the 600-650 range as much as possible, and only hit 700+ twice (distracted). I thought we were finally getting a stretch of warmer nights, but I see a couple this week in low single digits.

Huh - as I'm writing this, my wife just saw some details on their website regarding changes they have made to the design - looks like I have some reading to do... http://blog.woodstove.com/2014/03/ideal-steel-improvements.html


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## Backwoods Savage (Mar 10, 2014)

Most definitely Tom has made some good changes in the stove and no doubt he will continue to do so. 

I'm wondering if 700 is perhaps the recommended high stove top temperature on this stove? I have not asked Woodstock about this but feel this stove should easily surpass that temperature if needed.  No doubt you'll still have some serious burning to do yet this spring. I see we are headed back below zero again this week so it will no doubt hit you too.


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## Flamestead (Mar 10, 2014)

Backwoods Savage said:


> Most definitely Tom has made some good changes in the stove and no doubt he will continue to do so.
> 
> I'm wondering if 700 is perhaps the recommended high stove top temperature on this stove? I have not asked Woodstock about this but feel this stove should easily surpass that temperature if needed.  No doubt you'll still have some serious burning to do yet this spring. I see we are headed back below zero again this week so it will no doubt hit you too.



Our beta stove gets a bit more air on the right side then the left, so we go by a Woodstock thermometer placed on the top of the stove, just to the right of the plate covering the top-vent location. We also have one on the front, above the door, just for fun, in a spot that gets a lot of heat from the cat. I try to keep the needle out of the red, but suspect this box could take more abuse than we have given it. We are up over 4 cord through it, and all is well. 

Both cold and snow on the way, but the sun has a lot more strength these days, and today I made it home with ample daylight to spare, so things are looking up.


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## deathandtaxes (Mar 12, 2014)

another beta tester here.  I haven't had a chance to bring my review to this forum yet (its at another forum...am I allowed to say that?).  Anyway.  I have pushed it over 800 twice , not on purpose.  It does take time though.  It won't just run off out of control.  Both times were with a full load of good fuel, cat engaged and air almost completely open.  Once I spaced it and the temp was 800 or so for a short time, the other time I fell asleep lying in front of it so it spent some time in the 800+ range.  Well that was one HOT alarm clock.  Since this thing throws so much heat out the front, it felt like I woke up on the sun. I would guess I napped for like an hour.  Anyway, long story short, I was able to bring the temp back pretty easily/quickly with the air set way down and the stove hasn't shone any signs of issues from that.  The only thing that did happen was the smoke shield bent.  I never use it, I leave it in the up position, but the day after the second 800+ experience I notice it was bent.  I think the conclusion was it expanded length wise from the extreme heat and bent itself.  Of course they sent a new one a day later and sent the old back for examination (FYI, very simple design to pop that in and out).


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## deathandtaxes (Mar 12, 2014)

and I don't need 700+ temps for any length of time out of this stove.  I have a pretty good size house and that is too much heat for my house.  I have run 650 for periods of time, when it's cold, but typically run around 500.  My Isle Royale runs at a higher temp 700+,  but the IS I like at around 5-600.


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## begreen (Mar 12, 2014)

I thought at one point Woodstock suggested an automatic thermostat for this stove. Any word on that?


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## weatherguy (Mar 12, 2014)

deathandtaxes said:


> and I don't need 700+ temps for any length of time out of this stove.  I have a pretty good size house and that is too much heat for my house.  I have run 650 for periods of time, when it's cold, but typically run around 500.  My Isle Royale runs at a higher temp 700+,  but the IS I like at around 5-600.


 Are you saying it heats your house as well at 5-600 as the IR did at 700?


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## Backwoods Savage (Mar 12, 2014)

begreen said:


> I thought at one point Woodstock suggested an automatic thermostat for this stove. Any word on that?



You are perhaps thinking about the automatic control on air to the catalyst and that is in place but no auto for the main draft.


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## deathandtaxes (Mar 12, 2014)

weatherguy said:


> Are you saying it heats your house as well at 5-600 as the IR did at 700?



Without getting into boring details, I would guess that the IS heats the house at 600 similar to the IR at 700 (totally not scientific guess, but yes there is a difference).  It is a much larger stove, so more mass, so more transfer, etc.  This also means it takes longer to get the IS up to the higher temps, and it uses more fuel to get there, etc.....so I am not saying the IS is more efficient than the IR, that would be splitting hairs I think.  I am just saying that once they are both at 700, the IS will have me sweating sooner (but I would assume it would have used more wood to get there). 

The big difference is, I have the option to pull the temp back on the IS without running the risk of smoldering and smoking out the chimney.    So I can fit a larger load, get it up to temp, and then set it back to whatever I want.  I have found that I can basically pick a stove top temp by setting the air to a specific spot (after I got everything hot first).  So for me, I want a stove temp of 500 for the day, I set the air to 25%.  Later in the cycle I want 600, I move the air towards 50%, then back down again later if I want. 

Compared to the IR, it likes to run hotter, so you wind up controlling the output with smaller loads etc. on the shoulder seasons.

Don't take any of this as negative towards my IR.  I love my IR.  Just sharing the differences.


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## JA600L (Mar 12, 2014)

deathandtaxes said:


> Without getting into boring details, I would guess that the IS heats the house at 600 similar to the IR at 700 (totally not scientific guess, but yes there is a difference).  It is a much larger stove, so more mass, so more transfer, etc.  This also means it takes longer to get the IS up to the higher temps, and it uses more fuel to get there, etc.....so I am not saying the IS is more efficient than the IR, that would be splitting hairs I think.  I am just saying that once they are both at 700, the IS will have me sweating sooner (but I would assume it would have used more wood to get there).
> 
> The big difference is, I have the option to pull the temp back on the IS without running the risk of smoldering and smoking out the chimney.    So I can fit a larger load, get it up to temp, and then set it back to whatever I want.  I have found that I can basically pick a stove top temp by setting the air to a specific spot (after I got everything hot first).  So for me, I want a stove temp of 500 for the day, I set the air to 25%.  Later in the cycle I want 600, I move the air towards 50%, then back down again later if I want.
> 
> ...



In your opinion, does the ideal steel use less wood overall than the Isle Royale? Are the burn times much longer? Which stove do you prefer?


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## begreen (Mar 12, 2014)

Can the IS run at 300F for 12 hrs?


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## deathandtaxes (Mar 13, 2014)

JA600L said:


> In your opinion, does the ideal steel use less wood overall than the Isle Royale? Are the burn times much longer? Which stove do you prefer?



As for using more or less wood - I don't have a way to compare that for a couple of reasons. 1 I got the beta in the middle of January, so I can't compare how much wood I used in a season, 2 even if I could, this year has been a cold one so I have used the stove more, 3 my wood is not as seasoned as it normally is (using more Canawick blocks mixed in to keep things hot).  Having said that, I could only assume, if I kept the house at the same temp, and the outside temps were the same, that the stoves would use about the same amount of wood.  They are both very efficient stoves, so would we just be splitting hairs?  Or is that a bad assumption?

Burn times longer -  Yes.  the IS has a much larger firebox, so that alone allows more wood.  I can also turn the temp down, so the temp is a little lower, allowing for a longer burn, and the stove stays warmer for longer at the end of a cycle because of it's mass (stone seems to help with this).  So for example, with the IR, the max I could do with the CanaWick bricks was 40lbs (one package).  It could maybe fit a little more, but you risk over-firing at that point.  And that would keep the house warm for up to 12 hrs (I would say 8-12, 12 is definitely on the high end, 8 more common).  With the IS I can easily fit 80lbs (twice as much) and get 24 hrs of heat (again, on the high end).  Now with the IS I can do more than 80lbs without concern of over-firing as the air control and the cat make it work differently, so I can dial the temp back as needed and not be concerned of it running away.  I wanted to spend more time finding the true temp/heat numbers with the bricks (40lbs, 80lbs, 80+, etc), but I am starting to run out and as I mentioned before, I need them to mix with my cord wood.

Then the last question - the tough one.  Which do I prefer.  I almost feel like I am comparing apples to oranges.  Even though the stats say the firebox is similar, they are not.  The IS is a larger stove.  Also, the IS is cat, the IR is not.  So they each have their pros / cons.  I will just ramble off some thoughts.

Getting the Cat stove to the "right" temp and everything cruising properly (that means no smoke from the chimney, to me) I find more tricky and struggle more with that, but in fairness, I have only spent 2 months with it vs 5 years with the non-cat.

The size of the IS is great.  In the end, it just means less loading, so less work.

Looks - I like the looks of the IS, and love the ability to customize it, BUT both my wife and I prefer the cast iron and love the looks of the IR.  My wife is not a big fan of the box look of the IS.  But this is completely a taste, non performance issue.

So far, it seems I can burn less desirable wood cleaner in the IR, but that just may be because I know the IR better.

Love that the IS is so controllable.  I know I have said this other places, just don't remember where, but you can basically pick your temp with the air setting.  The IR has a temp cycle it likes to do.  You can dial it back, but it is no where near as responsive as the IS. Oh and the Air slide with the markings, ALL stoves should have something like this.  That is so simple and genius.

Honestly, they are both great stoves.  I wish I could combine my likes on both.

So I guess the questions for a buyer
-cat or not
-stone or cast iron performance(I know the IS is steel, but the stone liner makes is perform like a stone, from what I have read).  I think by soft heat, they are just saying it takes more time to heat it up, but then it slowly lets the heat out at the end also, so the "spike" in temp during the start of the cycle isn't as extreme.
-Appearance
-Firebox size, as the IS requires less loading because it is a bigger stove


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## deathandtaxes (Mar 13, 2014)

begreen said:


> Can the IS run at 300F for 12 hrs?



I guess we will find out this spring.  After you get it hot, I don't see a reason it couldn't do that, I just need more heat than 300 for my house.  It can run 450-500 with a full load for 12 hours.


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## begreen (Mar 13, 2014)

What is the lowest temp the IS will cruise at?

Other buyer questions:
- clearance requirements
- blower needed?


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## deathandtaxes (Mar 13, 2014)

I am not sure what the lowest cruise would be.  I think we will have to wait for warmer weather.  BUT there is at least one video out there with a 24 hr burn early in the season by one of the other beta testers.  I think he put some up on youtube (A couple of guys have videos kicking around out there).  They give a lot of info on temp throughout so that should give you an idea of the low end cruise temp.

Actually, I think you can get the video I am talking about through woodstocks blog http://blog.woodstove.com/

Also I think they are providing some of stats on the website now for clearances
http://www.woodstove.com/ideal-steel-hybrid

Blower - I don't need one, so haven't paid attention to it.  I believe others have asked, but I don't think there is one available.  Having said that,  the people at woodstock are VERY responsive to questions.  Call or email and they will be happy to answer any of the specifics.

I forgot to add that to the Pros for the IS -  The people at woodstock really love what they do and it shows.  Been great to work with on this Beta.


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## begreen (Mar 13, 2014)

Yes they are very customer friendly


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## osagebow (Mar 16, 2014)

Do either of y'all have the ash pan? If so thoughts on it? Sorry if this has been adressed already. Looking forward to the upgrade.


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## weatherguy (Mar 16, 2014)

begreen said:


> What is the lowest temp the IS will cruise at?
> 
> Other buyer questions:
> - clearance requirements
> - blower needed?


 I think clearance requirements will be set once its tested, it's going in next month. No blower option, I guess that's their MO with their stoves.


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## deathandtaxes (Mar 17, 2014)

osagebow said:


> Do either of y'all have the ash pan? If so thoughts on it? Sorry if this has been adressed already. Looking forward to the upgrade.



I have the ash pan.  Works well.  My other stove has one also, so I can't imagine not having one.  Let me know if you have any questions.  I was going to attach some pictures but it doesn't appear that simple to do here.  I have posted some pics on another forum that asked that exact question - Ideal Steel options - ash pan, yes or no??  I assume I an not allowed to link to other sites?

Excuse my ignorance on the pics.  I figured it out, but now can't find the pics....


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## deathandtaxes (Mar 17, 2014)

ok.  here they are.  I had actually slid the cover on the pan while it was still in the stove. I just slid it off again for the pic.


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## Papa-Yankee-Romeo-Oscar (Mar 17, 2014)

In the second picture it looks like there's a pretty big gap at the sides of the pan. Does the pan actually fill the space down there? It seems you would have to scoop out the ashes that don't make it in the pan.


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## deathandtaxes (Mar 17, 2014)

Papa-Yankee-Romeo-Oscar said:


> In the second picture it looks like there's a pretty big gap at the sides of the pan. Does the pan actually fill the space down there? It seems you would have to scoop out the ashes that don't make it in the pan.



You are correct, there is room at the sides, but the pan is wider than the grate so everything falls in the pan.  It is actually quite a bit longer than the grate too, so that is nice, if you wait too long to empty it, you have a little more room to push the pile around to.  This is the beta, not sure if any changes are planned.


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## begreen (Mar 17, 2014)

If one chooses to get the stove without the ashpan how high is the front lip into the firebox?


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## deathandtaxes (Mar 17, 2014)

begreen said:


> If one chooses to get the stove without the ashpan how high is the front lip into the firebox?



I would have to measure.  Maybe one of the other guys knows off the top of their head, but it's pretty high, so could hold quite a bit of ash before cleaning it out. Wild guess would be a few inches.


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## begreen (Mar 17, 2014)

Excellent. I am not a fan of ashpans. If the stove burns well, with the right wood it sounds like ash cleaning would be just a few times a season.


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## mellow (Mar 17, 2014)

I wish I could get away with only a few times a year,  my ash pile is a small mountain this year.


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## Elbinwyp (Mar 17, 2014)

deathandtaxes,
Your ash lip is looking pretty ashy. How has the outside of the stove held up? Does it collect dust? Does that ash lip get beat up with front loading? Would you recommend a dark color or light (like BrianK's)?


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## koodjack (Mar 17, 2014)

Flamestead said:


> Yesterday morning our Progress Hybrid went cold and was moved into a spare room to make way for a test version of the new Woodstock Ideal Steel Hybrid stove. My wife, of all people, signed us up as beta testers. We burn about 8 cord of wood each year, using wood as our primary heat source. In late January of 2012, thanks to this forum's suggestions, we lit up the Progress Hybrid (https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/progress-hybrid-install-pics.82465/). With no connections to anyone at Woodstock, other than being a customer, we feel pretty lucky to be a beta tester of this new stove (it should be a fun way to pass the winter evenings).
> 
> The PH is a good stove for us, in our big, drafty farm house (https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/wood-consumption-in-my-ph.95273/#post-1257855).  We have a 6" liner, insulated, in an interior chimney, 32' tall. Quite the draft the past few days (7 degrees out right now). As I noted, we burn about 8 cord {edit... oops, hit the post button too soon. I'll follow up with some pic's.)



Maybe it's just me, but I am not impress with the looks, the ph is better looking.


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## begreen (Mar 17, 2014)

mellow said:


> I wish I could get away with only a few times a year,  my ash pile is a small mountain this year.


Some wood is very ashy. In the beginning of the season we were burning soft maple and got a lot of ash. Then we switched to doug fir and locust in December and the ash production went way down.


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## deathandtaxes (Mar 17, 2014)

Elbinwyp said:


> deathandtaxes,
> Your ash lip is looking pretty ashy. How has the outside of the stove held up? Does it collect dust? Does that ash lip get beat up with front loading? Would you recommend a dark color or light (like BrianK's)?



Yeah, sorry, it's clean today   but the stove and the hearth are a mess in those pics.
but, I forget where I mentioned this, I am not a fan of the andiron design.  Because they fold forward as one unit, it is a one inch wide plate that folds forward.  Because I fill the stove up, ash builds up on that plate and dumps right on the lip when I put them down.  I can remove them (very easily) but I want to have them to keep the wood off the glass.  I could also try to clean the plate off every time with a shovel, but I am too lazy for that.  Or I could not fold them down and reach around them during loading, but I don't like that option either. So, now the ash winds up on the lip.  

The outside has held up fine.  It's only been a couple of months, but no issues with that at all.

Dust - does a big black metal object collect dust?  Well, yeah, but I vacuum it off when I clean up the hearth and lip.  My other stove does the same.  I can't imagine a stove that wouldn't.

Ash lip doesn't get beat up.  It is pretty low compared the opening so I never noticed it getting banged around, but I don't bang the stove around during loading anyway.  

Dark or light.  Well, my wife hates colored stoves, so it's not a discussion in my house.  You would have to ask Briank about his lighter color and what he thinks.  Black is black, pretty easy to keep clean.  Vacuum and a quick wipe if needed.


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## deathandtaxes (Mar 17, 2014)

koodjack said:


> Maybe it's just me, but I am not impress with the looks, the ph is better looking.



You are not alone.  Obviously it's a taste thing.  Keep in mind that it is a steel stove.  It's not a stone or cast iron, so it's competition are other steel boxes.  In that group, I think it wins, in my opinion.  But if you prefer stone, obviously this is not that.  Personally, both my wife and I prefer cast iron, so the IS does not win the looks competition in my house either.


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## Lee4him (Apr 28, 2014)

@deathandtaxes maybe I missed it but I'm curious as to the square footage you were heating.  2K, 2.5K 3K etc...


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## deathandtaxes (Apr 28, 2014)

From a post I had on my Isle Royale:
Colonial, post and beam, forced hot air propane, no heat on the second floor (never noticeable as the ceiling on the first floor is the floor on the second, literally same boards), main part of home is around 2000 sq ft. Then there is an addition of around 1500 off to the side. The addition is heated with 2 register rinnai propane heaters.

Although the wood stove heat certainly helps the addition, I do not depend on it to do so.


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## Lee4him (Apr 28, 2014)

Ok, thanks.  Appreciate the input.


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