# Windshield washer fluid in dishwasher drain?



## gyrfalcon (Dec 29, 2013)

This was mentioned in passing in a thread in another forum and I wanted to ask for advice.

The drain for my dishwasher goes nearly horizontal for a few inches in the approx. 4-inch "crawlspace" between the kitchen floor and bare dirt. before it emerges into the cellar proper and bends down into the drainpipe proper. (Kitchen addition is circa 1900 on an 1850 house, which does have a stone foundation, but cellar is unfinished.)  The placement of the water intake pipes on the other side of the dishwasher avoids this, but given the only possible placement of the dishwasher in the kitchen wing, it was this or nothing for the dishwasher drain.

So of course, it freezes when the weather gets really cold -- low teens or lower -- for a stretch.  I can free it up by crawling under the counter and pouring small amounts of near boiling water into it several times over the course of a day or two, but it's a pain in the neck.  (This is the only problem I have with pipes freezing in this old house, the previous owners of 50 years having long ago gotten the rest of the plumbing where it needs to be to avoid freezing.)

Would pouring some windshield washer deicer fluid into the drain before the thermometer is due to take a big dive be safe to do, worth doing?  I have a septic system, so I don't want to pour too much of this stuff into the drain.

Anybody ever done this?


----------



## boo boo (Dec 29, 2013)

Any way of getting heat tape on the drain pipe?
As far as washer fluid I don't see it hurting to try it. It should not hurt your septic its a light cleaner and not soapy


----------



## gyrfalcon (Dec 29, 2013)

boo boo said:


> Any way of getting heat tape on the drain pipe?
> As far as washer fluid I don't see it hurting to try it. It should not hurt your septic its a light cleaner and not soapy



Thanks, but unfortunately, no.  Perhaps if we'd put the heat tape on beforehand, but maybe not even then.  It was a major struggle to get it through there as it was.
As for the septic, I'm not worried about the soap but whatever the anti-freeze element is.  My septic system is very healthy and I'm eager to keep it that way, and I have no idea whether the antifreeze in this stuff is digestible by the system or perhaps even inhibits it.  A little surely won't hurt, but I don't want to push it without knowing for sure what I'm doing.


----------



## 1kzwoman (Dec 29, 2013)

If you have to add something to it ,safest for septic,would be vodka/alcohol.IMHO. But RV antifreeze rather than washer fluid might be an option.
Also just packing  around pipe with insulation may help.


----------



## fossil (Dec 29, 2013)

Rather than w/s washer fluid, I'd check with a local R/V or camp trailer dealer...they sell special non-toxic anti-freeze for winterizing the water systems in those rigs.


----------



## johneh (Dec 29, 2013)

fossil said:


> Rather than w/s washer fluid, I'd check with a local R/V or camp trailer dealer...they sell special non-toxic anti-freeze for winterizing the water systems in those rigs.




X2


----------



## gyrfalcon (Dec 29, 2013)

1kzwoman said:


> If you have to add something to it ,safest for septic,would be vodka/alcohol.IMHO. But RV antifreeze rather than washer fluid might be an option.
> Also just packing  around pipe with insulation may help.


Thanks very much.  We've got a plunge down to below zero overnight temps for a week coming tomorrow night, so I may try the vodka -- great idea! -- if I can't find the RV stuff in time.


----------



## gyrfalcon (Dec 29, 2013)

fossil said:


> Rather than w/s washer fluid, I'd check with a local R/V or camp trailer dealer...they sell special non-toxic anti-freeze for winterizing the water systems in those rigs.


Sounds good, Fossil.  Thanks very much.


----------



## 1kzwoman (Dec 29, 2013)

You could also pre run HOT water in supply line to DW ( nearest sink?). Then start a wash cycle in DW, followed with a cancel/drain after a partial fill.


----------



## Retired Guy (Dec 29, 2013)

gyrfalcon said:


> Thanks very much.  We've got a plunge down to below zero overnight temps for a week coming tomorrow night, so I may try the vodka -- great idea! -- if I can't find the RV stuff in time.


Marine stores have nontox antifreeze.


----------



## semipro (Dec 30, 2013)

Most anti-freezes are Ethylene Glycol which is toxic to animals. It causes kidney failure. 
The safer types of anti-freezes are propylene glycol.  Sierra is one brand of propylene glycol that is sold for use in vehicles as a less-toxic alternative. 
http://www.peakauto.com/products/antifreeze-coolants/automotive/sierra/


----------



## Jags (Dec 30, 2013)

Use the pink RV stuff.  That is what I use to winterize my cabin and always does the job and is fairly benign to the septic system (and it is small).


----------



## gyrfalcon (Dec 30, 2013)

semipro said:


> Most anti-freezes are Ethylene Glycol which is toxic to animals. It causes kidney failure.
> The safer types of anti-freezes are propylene glycol.  Sierra is one brand of propylene glycol that is sold for use in vehicles as a less-toxic alternative.
> http://www.peakauto.com/products/antifreeze-coolants/automotive/sierra/


I'm very aware of this, but as far as I know, I do not have animals in my septic system.


----------



## gyrfalcon (Dec 30, 2013)

Jags said:


> Use the pink RV stuff.  That is what I use to winterize my cabin and always does the job and is fairly benign to the septic system (and it is small).


Thank you.  That's what I will do, assuming it's easy enough to find where I am.  Failing that, I found a bottle of 100 proof vodka in the back of the liquor cabinet!


----------



## Jags (Dec 30, 2013)

Hmmm...3 bucks for a gallon of pink stuff or 30 bucks for a liter of 100 proof vodka - your call.  It should be pretty easy to find at any hardware or box store.  Very common stuff.


----------



## semipro (Dec 30, 2013)

gyrfalcon said:


> I'm very aware of this, but as far as I know, I do not have animals in my septic system.


Actually there are many microbes in there breaking down the waste. 
My point though was that although e. glycol may not be a good idea, p. glycol would probably be okay, and that you can buy it as Sierra vehicle coolant which may be less expensive than RV antifreeze.
Methanol, the main ingredient in windshield washing fluid, in  moderate quantities in your septic should be fine.  The bugs will eat it up.


----------



## gyrfalcon (Dec 30, 2013)

Jags said:


> Hmmm...3 bucks for a gallon of pink stuff or 30 bucks for a liter of 100 proof vodka - your call.  It should be pretty easy to find at any hardware or box store.  Very common stuff.


Hmmm.  I am 40 miles from the nearest big box store, 20 miles from the nearest ordinary hardware store, and in a corner of the country heavily iced in and about to undergo more snow and more below-zero temperatures for the better part of a week.  If the two small hardware stores I can get to on a trip up to town today don't carry it or are out, I will have to use what I have on hand.  And FYI, a bottle of cheap 100 proof vodka doesn't come close to 30 bucks.


----------



## Jags (Dec 30, 2013)

Call first.  No reason to be out there if they don't have what you need.

Cheap vodka?  Pour it down the drain.


----------



## gyrfalcon (Dec 30, 2013)

semipro said:


> Actually there are many microbes in there breaking down the waste.
> My point though was that although e. glycol may not be a good idea, p. glycol would probably be okay, and that you can buy it as Sierra vehicle coolant which may be less expensive than RV antifreeze.
> Methanol, the main ingredient in windshield washing fluid, in  moderate quantities in you septic should be fine.  The bugs will eat it up.


Love them microbes!  I treat them as gently as I can because they're doing a great job for me, which is why I'm concerned about what I put down the drain.  Thanks for the good info about which kind of what does whatever to the microbes.  That's exactly the info I was looking for.  (It's made a bit more complicated because this stuff doesn't always say on the label what's in it.  The jug of windshield washer deicer fluid I have has no info about the ingredients.  Is it safe to assume that it's methanol?  Or do different makers use different ingredients?)


----------



## gyrfalcon (Dec 30, 2013)

Jags said:


> Call first.  No reason to be out there if they don't have what you need.
> 
> Cheap vodka?  Pour it down the drain.


Yeah, I wasn't planning on tossing a bottle of Stoli in there! (Although if push came to shove...)  I have to go up to town today anyway before the Big Freeze-Up.


----------



## hearthofgold (Dec 30, 2013)

gyrfalcon said:


> This was mentioned in passing in a thread in another forum and I wanted to ask for advice.
> 
> The drain for my dishwasher goes nearly horizontal for a few inches in the approx. 4-inch "crawlspace" between the kitchen floor and bare dirt. before it emerges into the cellar proper and bends down into the drainpipe proper. (Kitchen addition is circa 1900 on an 1850 house, which does have a stone foundation, but cellar is unfinished.)  The placement of the water intake pipes on the other side of the dishwasher avoids this, but given the only possible placement of the dishwasher in the kitchen wing, it was this or nothing for the dishwasher drain.
> 
> ...




Hey Falcon, make sure there is no cold air blowing on the pipe. Perhaps there is some air coming in from between those stones that make up your foundation. Moving freezing air hitting a pipe is a no no. See if you can put a light by the pipe and try to look in from the outside during night hours. There is also a foam insulating spray called Great Stuff that perhaps by completely surrounding the pipe you might have some luck. You may have to remove the dish washer, start over and reroute the pipe at a different angle. If it is as cold as you said then that pipe should have split by now. So if it hasn't split by now then perhaps the temp around the pipe doesn't quite reach outside temps, so maybe the spray will work. If you start over, try this: The area of dirt beneath the pipe needs to be dug away a little bit so that the new pipe can be angled downward. I guess when you are in the basement, you are looking at a dirt wall from where the pipe is coming from. So that dirt needs to be dug away a little, then maybe even, from the basement, try pushing a flexible hose into that area and snake it up into the kitchen. Or from the kitchen drop a string with a weight, and then from the basement grab it with a piece of wire, tie it to the hose and pull it up from the kitchen. Good luck.


----------



## peakbagger (Dec 30, 2013)

Walmart has RV antifreeze, PEG is used in a lot of foods so the bugs should tolerate it.


----------



## gyrfalcon (Dec 30, 2013)

hearthofgold said:


> Hey Falcon, make sure there is no cold air blowing on the pipe. Perhaps there is some air coming in from between those stones that make up your foundation. Moving freezing air hitting a pipe is a no no. See if you can put a light by the pipe and try to look in from the outside during night hours. There is also a foam insulating spray called Great Stuff that perhaps by completely surrounding the pipe you might have some luck. You may have to remove the dish washer, start over and reroute the pipe at a different angle. If it is as cold as you said then that pipe should have split by now. So if it hasn't split by now then perhaps the temp around the pipe doesn't quite reach outside temps, so maybe the spray will work. If you start over, try this: The area of dirt beneath the pipe needs to be dug away a little bit so that the new pipe can be angled downward. I guess when you are in the basement, you are looking at a dirt wall from where the pipe is coming from. So that dirt needs to be dug away a little, then maybe even, from the basement, try pushing a flexible hose into that area and snake it up into the kitchen. Or from the kitchen drop a string with a weight, and then from the basement grab it with a piece of wire, tie it to the hose and pull it up from the kitchen. Good luck.


Thanks very much for the knowledgeable advice.  I don't think redoing the whole thing is in the cards, but I'll certainly save your advice for future reference in case it should be.  (What you describe about threading the hose is similar to what we did do to get it hooked up at the time.)  The cellar walls, though, are stone, so how much digging can be done there I'm unsure of.

The cellar is not airtight, but it's never as cold as the outside air, and the stretch where the drain pipe goes through the "crawlspace" is quite short, so 5 years or so on, the pvc is still intact, knock on wood.  I'm planning to get the cellar better tightened up this coming year, which should improve things a good bit.  The saving grace, so to speak, is that the boiler down there does come on for a few hours overnight when it's really cold, which keeps the cellar from getting too far into the deep freeze.

Thanks again.  Valuable advice appreciated.


----------



## gyrfalcon (Dec 30, 2013)

peakbagger said:


> Walmart has RV antifreeze, PEG is used in a lot of foods so the bugs should tolerate it.


I'm 40-some miles from a Walmart, but I did find some this morning at the Agway up in town and poured a couple cups of it in.  It'll be a couple days of near zero and below zero temperatures before I need to run the dishwasher again, but I'll report back for the record how it goes.


----------



## Corey (Dec 30, 2013)

Interesting to hear of a dishwasher going straight to a main drain.  Typically, they plumb in to the kitchen sink drain and most commonly the kitchen sink garbage disposal.  I don't suppose there is any way to reroute the drain to the kitchen sink?  Barring that, is it a trap which is freezing or just the horizontal section of the pipe?  If it's the horizontal section, any chance you can give it a slight slope?  May require re-working the attachment to the main drain, but even a small amount of slope would allow it to completely drain and may eliminate the freezing.

Maybe things you've already thought of, but just thinking out loud on ways to avoid the PITA of the antifreeze routine.


----------



## gyrfalcon (Dec 30, 2013)

Corey said:


> Interesting to hear of a dishwasher going straight to a main drain.  Typically, they plumb in to the kitchen sink drain and most commonly the kitchen sink garbage disposal.  I don't suppose there is any way to reroute the drain to the kitchen sink?  Barring that, is it a trap which is freezing or just the horizontal section of the pipe?  If it's the horizontal section, any chance you can give it a slight slope?  May require re-working the attachment to the main drain, but even a small amount of slope would allow it to completely drain and may eliminate the freezing.
> 
> Maybe things you've already thought of, but just thinking out loud on ways to avoid the PITA of the antifreeze routine.


Nope, couldn't do that because of that very short "crawlspace" under the kitchen floor.  There was no way to fit the dishwasher next to the sink or I'd have been happy to have it drain right into it like a "portable."  So the route we chose was actually the one where the distance the drain pipe had to go through that cold crawlspace over the dirt was the shortest.  With a 3-inch pvc pipe going through a 4-inch crawlspace, no way to give it a slope for those few inches.  It is just a short section of horizontal that freezes, not a trap.

It's actually pretty amazing we were able to get a dishwasher in there at all.  As I mentioned above, it's a circa 1900 small addition to an 1850 house that was put on without much of a foundation, so the entire little "wing" is only 4 inches above the bare dirt.  Even if I had the money, which I don't, I'd be more than reluctant to completely redo the kitchen.  It's an old house parts of which got badly "remuddled" in the '70s by the previous owners, and I'd rather make do with the few rather homely original elements that still exist than tear it all up and modernize it.  (Perverse maybe, but it's a moot point anyway, given the $$ involved.)


----------



## hearthofgold (Dec 30, 2013)

gyrfalcon said:


> Thanks very much for the knowledgeable advice.  I don't think redoing the whole thing is in the cards, but I'll certainly save your advice for future reference in case it should be.  (What you describe about threading the hose is similar to what we did do to get it hooked up at the time.)  The cellar walls, though, are stone, so how much digging can be done there I'm unsure of.
> 
> The cellar is not airtight, but it's never as cold as the outside air, and the stretch where the drain pipe goes through the "crawlspace" is quite short, so 5 years or so on, the pvc is still intact, knock on wood.  I'm planning to get the cellar better tightened up this coming year, which should improve things a good bit.  The saving grace, so to speak, is that the boiler down there does come on for a few hours overnight when it's really cold, which keeps the cellar from getting too far into the deep freeze.
> 
> Thanks again.  Valuable advice appreciated.



Just keep in mind that if the basement is not freezing but the pipe is then most likely air is blowing on it so shoot some foam on it. For pipes to actually break they have to be quite a lot under 32 degrees, but 32 will freeze the sitting water.


----------



## fossil (Dec 30, 2013)

For pipes to actually burst, they have to be completely full of pressurized water with no room for expansion as the water freezes (water expands when it freezes).  Then, you discover the failure has occurred after temps get back up above freezing and things begin to thaw.  A dishwasher drain line is never in this condition, so it is extremely unlikely that a rupture of the line would ever happen.  Liquid in the line freezes and forms a plug, but has ample room to expand while freezing so as not to threaten the pipe.


----------



## gyrfalcon (Dec 30, 2013)

hearthofgold said:


> Just keep in mind that if the basement is not freezing but the pipe is then most likely air is blowing on it so shoot some foam on it. For pipes to actually break they have to be quite a lot under 32 degrees, but 32 will freeze the sitting water.


I haven't taken a thermometer down there, but given the pattern of all this, my best guess is that the cellar is typically around 20 degrees or so warmer than the outside, which is why the pipe doesn't freeze until the outside temp is down in the low teens or below for several days.  As far as I can tell, the very low-rise foundation around the kitchen addition is quite solid -- not the faintest glimmer of light under there, so the pipe isn't being hit by any drafts.


----------



## gyrfalcon (Dec 30, 2013)

fossil said:


> For pipes to actually burst, they have to be completely full of pressurized water with no room for expansion as the water freezes (water expands when it freezes).  Then, you discover the failure has occurred after temps get back up above freezing and things begin to thaw.  A dishwasher drain line is never in this condition, so it is extremely unlikely that a rupture of the line would ever happen.  Liquid in the line freezes and forms a plug, but has ample room to expand while freezing so as not to threaten the pipe.


Thank you.  That's what I've been thinking.  Since it's a horizontal stretch of a few inches, with many feet of fairly wide, empty pipe above and below, there's plenty of room for ice to gradually expand into empty space.  So the whole deal is a nuisance, not a potential catastrophe.  (OK, losing the use of the dishwasher periodically for several days at a time in the wintertime is a minor catastrophe, but usually survivable.)


----------



## semipro (Dec 30, 2013)

gyrfalcon said:


> The jug of windshield washer deicer fluid I have has no info about the ingredients. Is it safe to assume that it's methanol? Or do different makers use different ingredients?)


I looked up several MSDSs for washer fluid and in all I viewed the main active ingredient was methanol.  I was pretty sure this was the case but wanted to verify. 
MSDS in general are a great resource for figuring out what is in stuff.  
You should be able to find the specific MSDS for the washer fluid you have available. 

I guess one thing to consider is whether the methanol could degrade your plumbing materials whether the drain trap or dishwasher hose.  Alcohols are frequently blamed for damage to vehicle fuel lines and other fuel system parts, probably with good reason.  I suspect RV antifreeze would be much less likely to damage plumbing.  

My suggestion, use the washer fluid to hold you over until you can get some RV antifreeze (p. glycol).


----------



## gyrfalcon (Dec 30, 2013)

semipro said:


> I looked up several MSDSs for washer fluid and in all I viewed the main active ingredient was methanol.  I was pretty sure this was the case but wanted to verify.
> MSDS in general are a great resource for figuring out what is in stuff.
> You should be able to find the specific MSDS for the washer fluid you have available.
> 
> ...


Ah, more good info.  Thanks again!  I wasn't aware of the existence of MSDSs, I blush to admit.  So thanks for that resource, too.

I was able to get the RV stuff at the Agway this morning, glugged some of that into the drain, and we'll see how it goes after a day or two of fairly brutal temperatures.


----------



## firefighterjake (Dec 31, 2013)

gyrfalcon said:


> I'm very aware of this, but as far as I know, I do not have animals in my septic system.



What? No alligators . . . oh wait a minute . . . that's New York city, right?


----------



## Ehouse (Dec 31, 2013)

Being a drain and not a trap or a feed its normal state is full of air.  I would try heat tape around the pipe at the point of entry into the basement, or a light bulb with a shield over it and the pipe.  The warm air in the pipe should rise and keep the DW drain clear.


----------



## Ehouse (Dec 31, 2013)

Another thing you can do is cut in a clean out at the bend in the basement where it angles down.  You'd then have a strait shot to the blockage to clear it with a bar (gently) or hair dryer.


----------



## Ehouse (Dec 31, 2013)

Here's something else to consider;  I had my main drain freeze up in an extended cold snap a couple years ago, it froze where it passed through the stone foundation, not in the ground and not in the basement.  I'm thinking the pipe may give up more heat to the stone than to either the loose earth or dead air around it.  If you have room, slide some pipe insulation along the pipe from the basement end or foam it.  Just foaming the pipe in the crawl space might not do it.


----------



## gyrfalcon (Dec 31, 2013)

Ehouse said:


> Here's something else to consider;  I had my main drain freeze up in an extended cold snap a couple years ago, it froze where it passed through the stone foundation, not in the ground and not in the basement.  I'm thinking the pipe may give up more heat to the stone than to either the loose earth or dead air around it.  If you have room, slide some pipe insulation along the pipe from the basement end or foam it.  Just foaming the pipe in the crawl space might not do it.


All great suggestions... and I'll save them for my next house.   This is a minor annoyance that I think will be solved with the RV antifreeze, whereas getting at the (pvc) pipe in that tiny uncrawlable crawlspace would require some serious excavation.  I'm also dubious that small interventions just at the point where the pipe emerges into the cellar proper would have much of an effect.

I could probably even solve this, or at least reduce the frequency of it substantially, by just running the dishwasher a couple times a day in the coldest weather,   But given the flooding in the kitchen that happens if I do that when the drain is blocked by ice, I'd still have to get down under the counter and pour hot water manually into the pipe to be sure it was open before I ran the dishwasher, so I wouldn't be gaining all that much in convenience.

I figure if the RV antifreeze does the trick after several days of this single-digit daytime, zero or below overnight,  I'll have my solution.


----------



## Jags (Dec 31, 2013)

gyrfalcon said:


> I figure if the RV antifreeze does the trick after several days of this single-digit daytime, zero or below overnight, I'll have my solution.


It will.  I have no doubt.


----------



## gyrfalcon (Dec 31, 2013)

firefighterjake said:


> What? No alligators . . . oh wait a minute . . . that's New York city, right?


Y'mean Noo Yawk?


----------



## semipro (Dec 31, 2013)

gyrfalcon said:


> I figure if the RV antifreeze does the trick after several days of this single-digit daytime, zero or below overnight, I'll have my solution.


But you can't imbibe the antifreeze  
at least you probably shouldn't.


----------



## gyrfalcon (Dec 31, 2013)

semipro said:


> But you can't imbibe the antifreeze
> at least you probably shouldn't.


True!  Pink stuff looks like kiddie bug juice anyway.  But I've still got that bottle of 100 proof vodka in the cupboard.


----------



## Ehouse (Dec 31, 2013)

Jags said:


> It will.  I have no doubt.




Hmmmm...  I have a doubt.  If the drain is only made up of vertical and horizontal elements, how is the anti freeze going to stay in the pipe?  Unless I'm missing something you'll just be pouring it down the drain to your septic.


----------



## gyrfalcon (Dec 31, 2013)

Ehouse said:


> Hmmmm...  I have a doubt.  If the drain is only made up of vertical and horizontal elements, how is the anti freeze going to stay in the pipe?  Unless I'm missing something you'll just be pouring it down the drain to your septic.


The short section of horizontal pipe never empties completely because it's horizontal.  Water sits in there, then in very cold weather, it freezes and expands just enough to block the pipe with ice.  The idea is to displace that water before it freezes with antifreeze, which will sit there and not freeze.

I'm actually guessing that just by very slight error when it was originally put in, the horizontal stretch ended up not being completely level but in fact rises just slightly on its way out of the crawlspace to the downspout, so the water pools right at the bottom end of the pipe coming from the dishwasher, like an accidental trap.

If liquid, whether it's water or antifreeze, all emptied out into the main drain, there would be nothing in there to freeze and block the dishwasher drain to begin with, right?  So the idea with the antifreeze is to displace the pool of water that's causing the (very occasional) blockage with stuff that doesn't freeze.


----------



## Ehouse (Dec 31, 2013)

gyrfalcon said:


> The short section of horizontal pipe never empties completely because it's horizontal.  Water sits in there, then in very cold weather, it freezes and expands just enough to block the pipe with ice.  The idea is to displace that water before it freezes with antifreeze, which will sit there and not freeze.
> 
> I'm actually guessing that just by very slight error when it was originally put in, the horizontal stretch ended up not being completely level but in fact rises just slightly on its way out of the crawlspace to the downspout, so the water pools right at the bottom end of the pipe coming from the dishwasher, like an accidental trap.
> 
> If liquid, whether it's water or antifreeze, all emptied out into the main drain, there would be nothing in there to freeze and block the dishwasher drain to begin with, right?  So the idea with the antifreeze is to displace the pool of water that's causing the (very occasional) blockage with stuff that doesn't freeze.




Ah!  So the short section is horizertical!  Now I get it.  Guess we'll find out if it works real soon!


----------



## gyrfalcon (Dec 31, 2013)

Ehouse said:


> Ah!  So the short section is horizertical!  Now I get it.  Guess we'll find out if it works real soon!


Yeah, sorry if that wasn't clear.  Funny how many words one can use up trying to describe something you could show in 2 seconds just by gesture.

I'm going to wait until Sunday, after a nice double-digit below zero overnight, to see if it works.  I figure if it does the job after the brutally cold week we'll have had by then, I'm golden.

Got a pic of that wonderful sounding stove of yours?


----------



## Ehouse (Dec 31, 2013)

gyrfalcon said:


> Yeah, sorry if that wasn't clear.  Funny how many words one can use up trying to describe something you could show in 2 seconds just by gesture.
> 
> I'm going to wait until Sunday, after a nice double-digit below zero overnight, to see if it works.  I figure if it does the job after the brutally cold week we'll have had by then, I'm golden.
> 
> Got a pic of that wonderful sounding stove of yours?




Hope it works!  I do have a couple of pics., New years res., figure out how to post 'em.


----------



## ironpony (Dec 31, 2013)

If I have read everything correctly, there are several issues,

 3 inch pipe holding water is at least 3 inches out of level going up hill, not good however

 if it did have correct fall and did drain completely, you will have sewer gas coming back into the house because you have no p trap

so if you can not fix it properly, leave it as is, at least you do not have sewer gas coming back into the house.

also the way it is described I would say it is safe to say there is no vent allowing air behind water to allow proper drainage which could be causing an air lock in the drain line..


----------



## Ehouse (Dec 31, 2013)

ironpony said:


> If I have read everything correctly, there are several issues,
> 
> 3 inch pipe holding water is at least 3 inches out of level going up hill, not good however
> 
> ...




Phooey, I was gonna lay back 'n see if the RV anti worked, but now you've gone 'n made it interesting.  I don't think the slope in the "horizontal" pipe is enough to create a trap, therefore the drain is vented back up and out the DW.  However,  Its also close enough to the main drain stack to be vented there, so little or no sewer gas getting out the DW.  Well vented so air lock is not the problem.  I'm writing this while testing out my own plumbing system by tossing various celebratory fluids down my neck.  Ten minutes to go.  Will I be able to pee with my mouth closed?  Cheers!  and a Happy New Year!


----------



## Smoke Stack (Jan 1, 2014)

Ehouse said:


> Ah!  So the short section is horizertical!  Now I get it.  Guess we'll find out if it works real soon!



Excellent hidden sarcasm, or, irony if you like.

Horizertical...


----------



## gyrfalcon (Jan 1, 2014)

Ehouse said:


> Phooey, I was gonna lay back 'n see if the RV anti worked, but now you've gone 'n made it interesting.  I don't think the slope in the "horizontal" pipe is enough to create a trap, therefore the drain is vented back up and out the DW.  However,  Its also close enough to the main drain stack to be vented there, so little or no sewer gas getting out the DW.  Well vented so air lock is not the problem.  I'm writing this while testing out my own plumbing system by tossing various celebratory fluids down my neck.  Ten minutes to go.  Will I be able to pee with my mouth closed?  Cheers!  and a Happy New Year!


Nah, no sewer gas.  At all. And I don't know where the "3 inches out of level" idea came from.  Maybe it's 1/8 or 1/4 inch out of level, max.  There flat out isn't room for it to be more than that with a 3-inch pipe in a 4-inch space.


----------



## Ehouse (Jan 1, 2014)

Smoke Stack said:


> Excellent hidden sarcasm, or, irony if you like.
> 
> Horizertical...




English major.  It's a curse.


----------



## ironpony (Jan 1, 2014)

gyrfalcon said:


> Nah, no sewer gas.  At all. And I don't know where the "3 inches out of level" idea came from.  Maybe it's 1/8 or 1/4 inch out of level, max.  There flat out isn't room for it to be more than that with a 3-inch pipe in a 4-inch space.





it has to be far enough out of level to trap the water that is freezing and clogging the pipe. if it was only an 1/8 or 1/4 and froze it would not clog the pipe. water finds it own level an it is filling the pipe. so the pipe is at a minimum 1.5 inches out of level if it is 3 inch pipe. .


----------



## gyrfalcon (Jan 1, 2014)

ironpony said:


> it has to be far enough out of level to trap the water that is freezing and clogging the pipe. if it was only an 1/8 or 1/4 and froze it would not clog the pipe. water finds it own level an it is filling the pipe. so the pipe is at a minimum 1.5 inches out of level if it is 3 inch pipe. .


My apologies for misleading.  I typed from memory instead of double-checking.  This stretch of pipe is 1.5 inches, not 3.  When we put the whole thing in originally (and by "we," I mean a handyman/contractor did, while i stood around and watched), the horizontal stretch in question appeared visually to be level, though there wasn't room to slip in and read an actual level.

This whole operation was definitely a kludge, and the handyman/contractor turned out not to have as much experience and expertise with non-standard -- to put it mildly -- operations like this as he made himself out to.  But I've had no problems with it in 6 years or so except for the occasional freeze in the drain, and sounds like maybe that pooling of water is otherwise a Good Thing if there's no trap in the system, which I'm honestly not sure of since I haven't ventured into the cellar to have a good look at the connections (cellar is dirt floor, small, and so festooned with spider webs, it's like stepping into a scene from an Indiana Jones movie, so I don't venture down there casually!)


----------



## FanMan (Jan 1, 2014)

I would avoid the windshield washer fluid, as most contain methanol, which may attack the rubber seals even if it doesn't hurt the septic.  RV antifreeze seems a better bet.


----------



## gyrfalcon (Jan 1, 2014)

FanMan said:


> I would avoid the windshield washer fluid, as most contain methanol, which may attack the rubber seals even if it doesn't hurt the septic.  RV antifreeze seems a better bet.


Good advice, and I did just that.


----------



## NE WOOD BURNER (Jan 2, 2014)

This is interesting.
DW has a water pump to discharge through a 3/4 -1" line for up to like 6 feet(check owners manual) they sell an add on pump to go longer distances that wires into DW for proper cycle. you can run the small line to a suitable drain with trap and vent. and have no trouble. possibly.
it sounds to me like you are most likely pumping with a pump that can not handle the larger diameter drain pipe that is run horizontal. the pump needs to be  sized for the additional load. IMHO


----------



## gyrfalcon (Jan 2, 2014)

NE WOOD BURNER said:


> This is interesting.
> DW has a water pump to discharge through a 3/4 -1" line for up to like 6 feet(check owners manual) they sell an add on pump to go longer distances that wires into DW for proper cycle. you can run the small line to a suitable drain with trap and vent. and have no trouble. possibly.
> it sounds to me like you are most likely pumping with a pump that can not handle the larger diameter drain pipe that is run horizontal. the pump needs to be  sized for the additional load. IMHO


That's an interesting thought, and given the inventive but less than super-experiencedt handyman who put the thing in, not all that unlikely.  Thanks.

Once this brutal cold spell is over (-10 at my house at the moment and worse tomorrow), I'll brave the spider webs and go down and take some measurements in the cellar instead of relying on my crappy memory for this stuff.

But question for you.  Is there any reason (other than the occasional freezing problem I can presumably fix with a little RV antifreeze a handful of times in the winter) why I should do anything about this if you're right?  I'm not flush, so to speak, with spare cash and definitely don't have the chops to do this myself, so if it's something I can do without, I'm unwilling to spend the $$.   As I've said above, this set-up has otherwise worked flawlessly for me for about 6 years now.


----------



## NE WOOD BURNER (Jan 3, 2014)

potentially you could flood your kitchen, but if antifreeze works and your happy so be it.

I would investigate the pump replacement so you have a plan when the pump or dishwasher fails.

thinking outloud: if you have a 3" pvc now I would when you replace the dishwasher run a 1" line inside the PVC until you get to a point of convenience and cut pvc install a trap and vent. essentially using the pvc as a chase for smaller pipe/hose.


----------



## gyrfalcon (Jan 3, 2014)

NE WOOD BURNER said:


> potentially you could flood your kitchen, but if antifreeze works and your happy so be it.
> 
> I would investigate the pump replacement so you have a plan when the pump or dishwasher fails.
> 
> thinking outloud: if you have a 3" pvc now I would when you replace the dishwasher run a 1" line inside the PVC until you get to a point of convenience and cut pvc install a trap and vent. essentially using the pvc as a chase for smaller pipe/hose.


This has been a fairly long and somewhat confusing thread, but... I was wrong when I said it was a 3-inch pipe.  The bit that goes from the DW through the floor is 1.5-inch.  My bad!  What it does after it emerges into the cellar proper I'm not sure, but my (imprecise) memory is that there's 3-inch in there somewhere.

And yes, oh, definitely, a flood happened the first time I ran the thing without realizing there was an ice block in there.  Very ugly!  But for 9 months of the year, and most of the other three when the cold isn't too awful, no floods.  I learned after that first flood to crawl under the counter in very cold weather and pour near-boiling water down the pipe-- and listen carefully-- to see if there was a block before running the DW.  So no floods since then, just annoyance.

Are you a plumber, or just a really good DIY guy? (I live in the DIY capital of the universe here in rural VT.  State motto-- "Code?  What code?"  Some places in my house, in fact, electrical outlets have been put in askew and/or plain upside-down, for instance)  I'd actually like to be a plumber in my next life, but in this life, I'm a nearly complete ignoramus.


----------



## Ehouse (Jan 3, 2014)

gyrfalcon said:


> This has been a fairly long and somewhat confusing thread, but... I was wrong when I said it was a 3-inch pipe.  The bit that goes from the DW through the floor is 1.5-inch.  My bad!  What it does after it emerges into the cellar proper I'm not sure, but my (imprecise) memory is that there's 3-inch in there somewhere.
> 
> And yes, oh, definitely, a flood happened the first time I ran the thing without realizing there was an ice block in there.  Very ugly!  But for 9 months of the year, and most of the other three when the cold isn't too awful, no floods.  I learned after that first flood to crawl under the counter in very cold weather and pour near-boiling water down the pipe-- and listen carefully-- to see if there was a block before running the DW.  So no floods since then, just annoyance.
> 
> Are you a plumber, or just a really good DIY guy? (I live in the DIY capital of the universe here in rural VT.  State motto-- "Code?  What code?"  Some places in my house, in fact, electrical outlets have been put in askew and/or plain upside-down, for instance)  I'd actually like to be a plumber in my next life, but in this life, I'm a nearly complete ignoramus.




Gyr, Hopefully the RV stuff is working for you.  As you say this thread 's getting confusing but I have one more observation and possible cure.  Even though there's just a little spit back laying in the short pipe and not enough to close the pipe, it may still freeze and build with each washer cycle until it does.  It won't stop the flow till its totally blocked or close to it.  Putting a little AF in after each use should work, but in the spring, when the Robin sings, Try this;  cut a piece ( maybe an inch) out of the vertical drain that you can access under the DW and re-join with a connector.  This should raise the heel of the ell under your floor allowing complete drainage.


----------



## NE WOOD BURNER (Jan 3, 2014)

gyrfalcon said:


> Are you a plumber, or just a really good DIY guy? (I live in the DIY capital of the universe here in rural VT. State motto-- "Code? What code?" Some places in my house, in fact, electrical outlets have been put in askew and/or plain upside-down, for instance) I'd actually like to be a plumber in my next life, but in this life, I'm a nearly complete ignoramus.


I guess I would be a more of a DIY with much experience  been around construction since birth. even the no code areas should follow the state codes or the federal codes for life and safety reasons. its the lack of inspection that makes the rural areas such a lot of fun and the economics of getting a plumber or electrician to come out to a rural area.


----------



## gyrfalcon (Jan 3, 2014)

NE WOOD BURNER said:


> I guess I would be a more of a DIY with much experience  been around construction since birth. even the no code areas should follow the state codes or the federal codes for life and safety reasons. its the lack of inspection that makes the rural areas such a lot of fun and the economics of getting a plumber or electrician to come out to a rural area.


No problem at all here with available plumbers or electricians and the like.  They're not storefront businesses with multiple employees and a receptionist, just guys with trucks full of tools and supplies and a cell phone.  Incompetents who screw up don't last long because the word spreads quickly.  They're all neighbors and soon friends, and as a result it wouldn't even occur to them to exploit you or cheat you.


----------



## NE WOOD BURNER (Jan 3, 2014)

That's great if you got the trades around.

I hired a plumber and electrician a few years back when I redid my basement and kitchen and bathroom. I had everything completed and relaxing by the time they showed up saved a bunch of money, but I was hoping to just get it done with minimal effort. I find in my area if its not a new construction most are not interested if they have any other work going on. Lot of talent in this area just hard for me to schedule with my availability.
I find DIY to be satisfying, but time is a killer now to DIY on everything.
I did sheet rock, paint and trim this past week. with the weather was able to get carpenter to come and knock out the trim in short order. I find having things ready to go makes for a time savings if I can nail down a little help with the gravy work .
Always a project going on!


----------



## gyrfalcon (Jan 3, 2014)

NE WOOD BURNER said:


> That's great if you got the trades around.
> 
> I hired a plumber and electrician a few years back when I redid my basement and kitchen and bathroom. I had everything completed and relaxing by the time they showed up saved a bunch of money, but I was hoping to just get it done with minimal effort. I find in my area if its not a new construction most are not interested if they have any other work going on. Lot of talent in this area just hard for me to schedule with my availability.
> I find DIY to be satisfying, but time is a killer now to DIY on everything.
> ...


Interesting.  In my area, anybody who only wanted to work on new construction wouldn't have any work.  I have huge admiration and respect for plumbers in particular who have to cope with an astounding variety of plumbing put in, modified, partially replaced, with all kinds of different materials over the course of a century in older homes.  That's a bottom line requirement around here.  Back when I lived in metro burbs -- in a 100-yo house -- folks like that were much less common and I held onto the one I finally found with a death grip.  Those puzzles were like catnip to him, bless 'im, and he really loved sorting them out, rather than just tearing it all out and putting in all-new.

Part of me admires your ability to do all that stuff, but the other part of me insists that life is too short.


----------



## NE WOOD BURNER (Jan 3, 2014)

yeah life is short!
spent my child hood repairing old houses and hand digging cellar holes!
family had over 250 units of apartments in old homes. Learned a lot about trades at 1:00am.

built my house I'm in now at age of 16.

I have much regard for all trades that took the time to mentor me as a child helping me out in the binds. Back in the day a boy could earn a mans wage if he was ambitious!


----------



## DAKSY (Jan 4, 2014)

Why not just put a lead light in the area (if you can get one in there)? I have a problem at the lake where the main drain lines exit the foundation. The double traps are under a deck & that side of the house faces a lake. The wind blows predominantly from the north & there are times, like in the temps we have here in the northeast, when they will freeze. I put a small 60 watt lead light in there & in 20 minutes they'll thaw. Once they do I unplug the light.


----------



## gyrfalcon (Jan 4, 2014)

DAKSY said:


> Why not just put a lead light in the area (if you can get one in there)? I have a problem at the lake where the main drain lines exit the foundation. The double traps are under a deck & that side of the house faces a lake. The wind blows predominantly from the north & there are times, like in the temps we have here in the northeast, when they will freeze. I put a small 60 watt lead light in there & in 20 minutes they'll thaw. Once they do I unplug the light.


By "lead light," do you mean the new LED bulbs?  I haven't had one of those yet.  Do they run hotter than CFLs?  I'll take a look at that possibility, but I don't believe there's an outlet anywhere near there, so it would involve a really long extension cord hanging across the space, which I'm uncomfortable with.  And also, can't get any kind of light actually in there next to the pipe.  Best I could do is at the exit point.

Also, if I've got to go down into the cellar every time with an extension cord, why not just use the old hair dryer tactic?

(We were down to -15 last night here, how about you?  We've had that kind of overnight dip and worse before, but the long surrounding period of zero and sub-zero temps hasn't happened here in a long time.  It's fascinating and horrifying how long it's taking the structure itself to warm up a bit.  The walls themselves are just sucking up all the heat the stove is putting out, and the temp really drops like a stone when the stovetop temp starts to sag a bit.  Physics can be a terrible thing to watch in action!)


----------



## DAKSY (Jan 4, 2014)

gyrfalcon said:


> By "lead light," do you mean the new LED bulbs?  I haven't had one of those yet.  Do they run hotter than CFLs?  I'll take a look at that possibility, but I don't believe there's an outlet anywhere near there, so it would involve a really long extension cord hanging across the space, which I'm uncomfortable with.  And also, can't get any kind of light actually in there next to the pipe.  Best I could do is at the exit point.
> 
> Also, if I've got to go down into the cellar every time with an extension cord, why not just use the old hair dryer tactic?
> 
> (We were down to -15 last night here, how about you?  We've had that kind of overnight dip and worse before, but the long surrounding period of zero and sub-zero temps hasn't happened here in a long time.  It's fascinating and horrifying how long it's taking the structure itself to warm up a bit.  The walls themselves are just sucking up all the heat the stove is putting out, and the temp really drops like a stone when the stovetop temp starts to sag a bit.  Physics can be a terrible thing to watch in action!)


 
Just a regular incandescent bulb, if you can get one. Leave the lead cord down there & plug it in when you need it.
We were about -14...Too freekin cold...


----------



## hossthehermit (Jan 5, 2014)

Did ya ever think about washing dishes by hand in the sink ????????????????


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Jan 14, 2014)

Jags said:


> Hmmm...3 bucks for a gallon of pink stuff or 30 bucks for a liter of 100 proof vodka - your call.  It should be pretty easy to find at any hardware or box store.  Very common stuff.


THats what i was thinkin..........  Vodka no way.......let it freeze


----------

