# Starting a fire and running an EPA stove



## begreen

Questions about starting a fire and avoiding a runaway stove come up so frequently I decided to document starting our stove. This is a Pacific Energy Alderlea T6 with about a 3 cu ft firebox. The stove is connected to a straight-up, 20' interior flue. The outside ambient temperature is 34ºF. The blower was off all the time for these shots. The firewood is douglas fir at about 17% moisture content. This is a N/S loading. An E/W loading start will follow. 

NOTE: as testing will show, the older Condar flue thermometer is reading low. It's due for replacement. 

There are 3 instruments shown.

A Condar probe thermometer on the double-wall stove pipe.
The stovetop temperature on a Sandhill thermometer
A digital probe readout for the flue using an Auber AT100




Here is the stove loaded with a gap in the middle for a top-down start. 3 balls of newspaper and a few flakes of kindling on top.



Fire started, flue temp and stove top temp is <100ºF. Door left open about 1/2".



Time to insert a split into the gap then close the door, with the air control wide open. This picture is showing the stove, the Condar, the stove top, and the Auber.



Dry doug fir takes off quickly. This is about 5 minutes later, time to reduce the air to 50%. There will be no creosote worry here even though the stove top temperature is low.



Just a few minutes later and secondary burn is getting robust. Reduce air to about 70% closed. Note how stove top  temp is still low and the probe flue thermometer is lagging far behind the digital probe. The digital probe reacts almost instantly.



After 5 minutes the fire is going strong, close down air almost all the way, maybe 85%. If it was 10º colder outside I would be closing the air all the way due to increased draft. Note the stove top temp. This is why it is not helpful in a cold start. It takes time to heat up the mass of the stove, while the flue temp is already very high. Unfortunately, the Condar flue probe is sluggish which is less helpful, but combined with the visual cue from the firebox it's obvious that the air needs to be closed down until the flames slow down.



Just a few minutes later the fire settles down. Secondary combustion is now robust. No need to change anything. Stove top temp still coming up.



The stove has been cruising for 20 minutes and is almost up to temperature.  The stove top settled at 625º. The analog probe thermometer is finally catching up to the digital probe.

Note that this is just one example of a N/S load of softwood in a large stove. There are many variations. This load of wood has a lot of young growth and sapwood in it so it is not as dense as old growth doug fir and it burns quicker with less heat. Every fire will have a somewhat unique character depending on firebox size, how much fuel is loaded, how tightly it is packed, outside temperature, and mostly, the operator.  If you don't have thermometers, consider one, at least for the flue temp. And use your eyes for visual cues about the stage of the burn.
Hope that helps.


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## weatherguy

Have to say I was resistant to the top down fire because I've always did it the old way, after trying it once I'm hooked, I will always do top down. Thanks BG, good thread.


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## begreen

> Woodcutter Tom said:
> I thoroughly enjoyed reading your Starting Fire documentation. Very informative.
> 
> I had a couple of questions I wanted to ask. I did not want to mess up your thread so I decided to ask you this way.
> 
> 1. I am a bit confused about the definition of Flue and Stove pipe. I thought they were basically the same. You have your Auber reading the flue temperature and a probe reading your stove pipe. Could you please explain the different locations. Maybe a picture where each is located would help.
> 
> 2. In your second set of pictures the Auber displays 190 degrees. To me the flame looks so small as you just started the fire. Do you get that much heat with so little flame? I am trying to factor in your 3.0 cubic foot firebox, but still the flame looks small. Even in the next set of pictures where the Auber displays 298, the flame looks small.
> 
> 3. When your fire settled in at 625, how long does it stay in that area before it starts to drop? Is the drop fairly rapid, or is it a gradual decent?
> 
> 4. When you have the door open 1/2 inch, do you get a blowtorch effect? By that I mean does the air seem to rush into the firebox and fan the flames excessively.
> 
> Once again, great information. I appreciated it and I am sure many other new stove owners will also.
Click to expand...

Tom, these are great questions. I wouldn't mind them showing up in the posting at all. I am going to copy this over to the posting so that others can benefit.

When I say flue, I mean the entire flue system from stove to the chimney cap. Stovepipe strictly refers to the in-the-room pipe that connects the stove to the chimney system. The Condar probe is about 21" above the stovetop, the Auber probe is at about 23" above the stovetop.

In a big firebox, the flame does look small, but remember, this firebox is deep so what you don't see is the flame behind. What looks like a 3" x 4" flame is actually also 12-16" deep. Yes, a few balls of newspaper and a little kindling will take the Auber up a couple of hundred degrees pretty quickly. It's quite sensitive. When you think about it, the heat has nowhere else to go but up the flue.

How long the stovetop stays at peak temp depends on the wood. In this case there was some sapwood that burned pretty quickly. It stayed at around 625º for about 30 minutes and then very gradually declined. The fire was reloaded about 8 hrs later with a stovetop temp of around 275º. At 625º there are flames and those will remain, mostly at the top of the wood as secondaries for at least an hour, sometimes longer. It depends on the wood. The flames become wispier as the fire approaches the coaling stage. After all the volatiles have burned off the flames end, but the coals are still glowing and burn down over the remaining few hours.

If the door is open an inch I get the blowtorch effect. This is helpful at times, but most of the time I leave the door open just a tiny bit. Maybe 1/8 to 1/4". If the door is open too much it tends to fan the fire too much to the rear of the stove and can actually snuff out flames in the front.

When I get time I will do this again with an E/W loading.


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## Woody Stover

Huh. I figured you had the digital probe closer to the flue exit, since it always read higher, but it's actually a couple inches _higher_ than the condar probe. What gives??


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## RIMatt

@begreen I would love to see this done as E/W.  I've been getting good results with my Enviro Boston unit but since it is the 1200 model Im limited to E/W.  The issue I have been having is that the logs at the back of the firebox are not catching.  They char up but that's about it until I rake it forward after the logs that had been in the front are down to coals. Any ideas as to why?  Thanks.


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## begreen

I'll try to remember doing this with a fire in a day or two. Right now we have been burning 24/7 with relights off of hot coals.


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## BigJ273

Has anyone used the Auber digital thermometer with the magnetic probe attachment U attach to the stove?  Thinkin bout getting one to keep an eye on stove temp. Not pipe temp.


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## Kobuk

I've owned the Alderlea T5 for 5-6 years now at our cabin up here in Alaska. When we show up in the winter it can be pretty cold inside and it takes quite a while to heat up a cold building. I get my fire going pretty good and hot but only use the stovetop temp gauge and visual for adjustment. It seems that I run mine quite a bit hotter than the example above. I burn what is on my property which is a mix of birch and spruce. I have been wanting to install a flue temp probe to go along with my stove top temp gauge. My issue and question is about placement. I have a double wall pipe with the slide adjustment. It sounds like the probe needs to be 18"-24" up from stove and I am only able to put it about 10-12" up because that is where the pipes slide together. Will that work? Why do most install higher? Thank you for all of your help on this. I have enjoyed this forum for quite a few years now.


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## begreen

The reading will be a bit high that close to the flue collar. It sounds like you are doing fine. In colder weather I push our stove higher. If it was 15º colder I would have been burning hardwood with a peak stovetop temperature of 700º.


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## Kobuk

I can't imagine trying to drill my holes through the adjustable area, slide up to clean out my pipe then get those holes realigned! I've thought about it because I think it would be very helpfull to know the flue temps. I've also wonded if putting it lower would be worth it or just freak me out if it reads higher. Every trip down this year it's been pretty chilly, lows around 10-15 below and highs in low single digits. That stove feels real nice!


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## TradEddie

That top picture is almost exactly how I do cold starts, I will usually use more kindling, and perhaps one or two pieces of larger kindling. I also throw a  split into that gap once everything is burning well. The point about stovetop temperature lagging secondary combustion temperature is especially important in top-down starts with lots of kindling, I  get strong secondary flames and no smoke  out my chimney long before the stovetop reaches 400F.  On hot reloads that lag isn't there, I suspect this is partially because the stove mass is already warmer, but also because hot reloads are a slower ramp of heat to the metal compared with the blast of kindling flames right under the tubes.

TE


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## MoDoug

I'm new to wood stoves, I've got about a month under my belt now. Starting fires the old school way with kindling. For my first fire about a month ago, I started the fire then added about 5 splits onto it, in short order my stove top temp was reaching 700 degrees, anxiety set in, with panic a step away... I closed down the air as much as I could, it settled down, then I settled down. Now I'm gun shy, but I've got to say I'm fascinated with your top down burn. I imagine the top down burn can be compared to back burning a field of dry grass. Light it down wind and let it work it's way back, which is true in the stove as well. It will be more controlled and slower, not a run away fire.

My stove is smaller with a 1.8 cubic foot firebox, with E/W orientation. I read somewhere here, I'm pretty sure it was you begreen on an old thread, that with E/W loads you need to be careful with the wood falling against the door/window as it burns down and shifts. Any recommendations to avoid that? I look forward to your E/W burn.


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## Woody Stover

MoDoug said:


> I started the fire then added about 5 splits onto it, in short order my stove top temp was reaching 700 degrees, anxiety set in, with panic a step away... I closed down the air as much as I could, it settled down, then I settled down. Now I'm gun shy, but I've got to say I'm fascinated with your top down burn.


If you can slow it down by cutting the air, that's a nice option to have. A top-down start will get less wood gassing at the start of the burn, and burn more slowly as you guessed. You can also cut the air more aggressively at the beginning of the burn. Don't cut it so hard that you lose the secondary burn,  though. Larger splits will burn slower as well.


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## begreen

I did an E/W start this morning. Will post the details once I get some time in Photoshop to assemble the images and do a write up.


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## Woody Stover

MoDoug said:


> I'm fascinated with your top down burn....My stove is smaller with a 1.8 cubic foot firebox, with E/W orientation. I read somewhere here, I'm pretty sure it was you begreen on an old thread, that with E/W loads you need to be careful with the wood falling against the door/window as it burns down and shifts.


You need dry  wood for the top-down start to take. With wet wood, the fire will have a hard time working its way down into the load.
Thinking more about the E-W load, you might try putting a big split in the bottom front, and build your top-down on that; The big split should provide a stable base well into the burn, and by the time it burns away, the stuff above that could roll into the glass should be mostly consumed.
My stove is an E-W loader with andirons, so no issue with rolling splits.


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## MoDoug

Woody Stover said:


> You need dry  wood for the top-down start to take. With wet wood, the fire will have a hard time working its way down into the load.
> Thinking more about the E-W load, you might try putting a big split in the bottom front, and build your top-down on that; The big split should provide a stable base well into the burn, and by the time it burns away, the stuff above that could roll into the glass should be mostly consumed.
> My stove is an E-W loader with andirons, so no issue with rolling splits.



Good info, and suggestion on the big split on the bottom front. All the wood I'm burning was long dead before it was split and covered a year ago, so it's dry. I think I'd turn up the furnace before I ran wet wood through the stove. I googled andirons, and that would be a great addition.


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## Woody Stover

MoDoug said:


> All the wood I'm burning was long dead before it was split and covered a year ago, so it's dry...andirons, and that would be a great addition.


Don't try that with Oak.  I only harvest dead wood, and Oaks that have been standing dead for five years or more can still be at 30%+ moisture.
I took down a dead White Ash a few months back. It was dead for several years but also metered at 30+ in the trunk. I'm hoping it's some "other" kind of moisture that's not in the cells of the wood and will dry faster, but I have nothing to base that hope on so I'm prepared for the worst.  I've already got Plan B and Plan C lined up for that person's wood supply for this fall..


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## begreen

Ok, I let the fire die down last night so that I could do an E/W cold start this morning. Note that the T6 has a deep firebox, so I have more wiggle room than some with a shallower firebox, but the general principle is the same.  To start with I laid down 2 sleepers about 6" apart on which to lay the E/W splits on. This allows air to get under the wood to assist the fire. Without them, the start would be slower. If there is a hot coal bed then this is not necessary.


Then splits were put on top of the sleepers with one large split in the front to act as a base. The loading needs to be biased toward the rear of the stove so that splits can't roll forward. This means that the wider edge of forward so that the wedge shape of the split is toward the rear. The rear is stacked higher and a pocket has been left to accommodate newspaper balls and kindling to start the fire.  Then kindling is stacked on top of the newspaper balls (or starter).




This is a sketch of a hypothetical load set up so that the splits won't roll to the rear of the firebox. There is a trough on top for starting with paper (or starter) and kindling. Once the fire is burning vigorously, another split can be placed on top if needed.
Side View:
front of firebox  
	

		
			
		

		
	



	

		
			
		

		
	
 rear wall of firebox


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## begreen

The newspaper is ignited and the kindling starts burning. At this point the door is slightly ajar to admit more air and of course the air control is wide open.


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## begreen

The kindling fire is now burning robustly. Time to latch the stove door closed.


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## begreen

A split is added on the burning kindling to fill the gap, but not smothering the fire. Note that the fire is now also burning under the logs between and including the sleepers.


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## begreen

Time to close the air down to 50%.


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## begreen

Secondary burn is good, time to close the air down again to about 25%.


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## begreen

Stove is now cruising, air closed a bit more to ~15%


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## begreen

Epilog: This is the first E/W fire I've done this year. It was definitely a slower start with more tweaking than my normal N/S fires. The stove needed to be reloaded after 7 hrs. which is shorter than normal, but somewhat expected due to less wood loaded as compared to N/S loading.


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## MoDoug

I like the idea of using the sleepers to allow air circulation with the E/W. With my smaller 1.8 cf firebox even smaller sleepers will help tremendously. I noticed you also use some smaller splits N/S to fill in the end gaps, basically cramming in wood where you can for a longer burn.

The E/W applies to me, I'll try this tonight.  At a later time, I'm going to experiment with a N/S start. I'll have to cut some short splits about 12 inches, but it will be interesting to see how they compare.  The N/S start may work out pretty good, then do E/W reloads on a good bed of coals.

begreen, thank you for the starting a fire info, both orientations.  You put effort into it with good explanations of how and why.


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## begreen

You're welcome. Note that these examples are just one sampling of hundreds of fires. Each loading and fire takeoff is different. In the past I used always do a bottom-up burn with the "Tunnel of Love"™ method, but that leads to smokier starts so I have switched to only doing top down starts this year.  Hot coal reloads are still bottom-up, but the stove firebox is hot enough to start burning cleanly much faster.


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## LumberCity

I do the same set up (top down with a channel in the middle) except loaded e/w.  my firebox is about 1.5 cu/ft and using oak splits with a few pine branches as kindling I can get the firebox ripping in about 10 minutes. vastly superior to bottom up fire.


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## hunter23

when starting a fire, it is important to consider the type of wood you are using. This can greatly affect how well the fire burns and if there are draft issues. The CSIA recommends burning wood that is 15-25% moisture content. For more info about which types of wood are acceptable, read this blog.


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## begreen

hunter23 said:


> when starting a fire, it is important to consider the type of wood you are using. This can greatly affect how well the fire burns and if there are draft issues. The CSIA recommends burning wood that is 15-25% moisture content. For more info about which types of wood are acceptable, read this blog.


Dry wood is very important. The link appears to be more about fireplace burning. This thread is about wood stover operation. For woodstoves, ideally, the moisture content should be below 20% for modern wood stove burning. The section on softwood is incorrect. A large portion of western wood burning is softwood. If it is properly seasoned it burns quite cleanly and can be excellent firewood. We burn douglas fir almost exclusively and typically end up with about 1/2 cup of soot in annual cleaning.

Are you the author?


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## firefighterjake

hunter23 said:


> when starting a fire, it is important to consider the type of wood you are using. This can greatly affect how well the fire burns and if there are draft issues. The CSIA recommends burning wood that is 15-25% moisture content. For more info about which types of wood are acceptable, read this blog.




Some good stuff here . . . some misinformation . . . especially when it comes to burning in a woodstove (maybe it's different with a fireplace.)

-- How hot and long a fire lasts is partly due to the wood species . . . but in a woodstove it also depends on how well seasoned the wood is, how the person operates the stove and even the stove type which will determine how much heat is extracted from the burning gases of the wood and how long the fire lasts.

-- I am not sure if I have ever run across any wood species that burns too hot . . . short of something like wood soaked in creosote or flammable fuels. Naturally occurring wood species of pretty much any type has been run through my woodstove with no ill effects.

-- Once wood is seasoned it can be split . . . I would actually say it's the opposite . . . to really season wood effectively you should split your green wood and let it season.

-- I don't know as if there is truly an ideal size or shape . . . I would say it really depends on the size of the stove and the heating needs at the time. For example, in Fall I may be some chunks and uglies of lower BTU wood such as poplar, pine or hemlock to have a quick, hot fire to just take the chill out of the air without really overheating the house, but come January I am looking for BTU heavy-weights like oak, beech or sugar maple and I generally want to fill up the firebox. For night time use I tend to use larger sized splits or rounds for longer burning times.

-- Seasoned softwood is fine . . . smoke is minimal if seasoned properly and the fire can be just as hot as if one were burning hardwood . . . providing the wood is seasoned. Of course, one should probably mention how you can have "soft" hardwood such as poplar or bass . . . and "hard" softwood such as hackmatack.

-- Birch can be burned fine by itself . . . moreover there can be a big difference within certain types of wood. For example yellow birch is a pretty high BTU wood compared to white birch.

-- Never leave a fire unattended . . . maybe a good rule for fireplaces, but a lot of us 24/7 wood burners would be in a hard place if we followed this rule as we routinely load up and go to work or to sleep.

-- Cleaning the ash before lighting a fire may also be a fireplace thing . . . but in a woodstove having an inch or two of ash is actually quite beneficial in preserving coals and even acting as an insulation barrier to a degree between the hearth and stove.


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## overlandsea

Is there any difference in starting a fire in a soapstone stove? The stove top is obviously slower to heat up and never gets as hot. Any changes to method or tips?


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## begreen

Not really. How have you been starting it or is this a new stove?  What stove is this?


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## overlandsea

begreen said:


> Not really. How have you been starting it or is this a new stove?  What stove is this?


New stove and I'm new to burning, so I'm no expert. It's a Hearthstone Shelburne. I've gotten better results trying this top down method than bottom up, but trying to get the timing right is a little tricky since the top is so much cooler than in your pictures. I wasn't sure if soapstone stoves just take longer to get going or what. I know it's never going to get as hot on the surface, but just trying to figure out when is it hot enough to seal the door, turn down the air, etc.


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## begreen

The Shelburne is a cast-iron stove at heart with soapstone firebrick. Hearthstone recommends putting the stove thermometer on the top center. It should reach 400-600º. Search in this forum for Shelburne threads. And if you don't find what you are looking for, start a new thread on running the stove.


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## huauqui

begreen,
Thanks so much for all the work you put in on this thread and all the others you give guidance to as well.  This forum owes much to you and others like you who take time to aid all of us.  

Thanks again,
huauqui


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## AndrewU

Would this process work with a catalytic stove?  And tweaks besides the need to mess with the bypass?


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## begreen

Basically yes, but there are key differences starting with replacing the stovetop thermometer with a catalyst thermometer for guidance. Temp readings in the stovepipe may be lower and may very dramatically once the bypass is closed. Also, a good cat stove will operate at a lower temp range once the cat is active. Other confounding factors are that some catalytic stoves have a thermostatic operation which is going to vary stove and flue temp based on the heat demand. Another factor is that many new stoves are showing up that are hybrids, with a cat and tubes. I don't have data on these stoves, but I suspect that their operation would be somewhat similar to a conventional secondary stove. It would be great to have someone to document startup with a hybrid and a full cat stove.


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## jlinz

Very helpful, thanks! How do I take the temp of the flue when I have an insert where the flue is totally covered by face plate?


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## AndrewU

begreen said:


> Basically yes, but there are key differences starting with replacing the stovetop thermometer with a catalyst thermometer for guidance. Temp readings in the stovepipe may be lower and may very dramatically once the bypass is closed. Also, a good cat stove will operate at a lower temp range once the cat is active. Other confounding factors are that some catalytic stoves have a thermostatic operation which is going to vary stove and flue temp based on the heat demand. Another factor is that many new stoves are showing up that are hybrids, with a cat and tubes. I don't have data on these stoves, but I suspect that their operation would be somewhat similar to a conventional secondary stove. It would be great to have someone to document startup with a hybrid and a full cat stove.



Once I get used to the BK Ashford 30 I’ll see if I can document a top down method.  I imagine it might be a little while before I’d want to do that as it will take time just to get used to burning a cat stove in the first place.  Haven’t had wood in many, many years, and when I did they were smoke dragons.


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## begreen

jlinz said:


> Very helpful, thanks! How do I take the temp of the flue when I have an insert where the flue is totally covered by face plate?


With a remote digital probe, probably attached under the band clamp for the liner.


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## MTASH

I can try to document a cold start, but I only do a handful during the season so it might be a while. So this is based on memory.

Basically, my load w/paper and kindling looks identical to the photo @begreen posted at the start of the thread, then after lighting:

1) I leave the door cracked until my Condar flue probe reaches ~400F, then latch door. This is less than 5 minutes.
2) Continue to burn w/thermostat on high until cat probe is at or approaching active zone, then close bypass, maybe 15-20 minutes after lighting. My flue temps typically will not go over 700-800 with bypass open, but in a couple cases I've skipped to step 4 before closing bypass.
3) Continue to burn on high w/bypass closed until I get within a few degrees of desired room temperature - typically not more than 30 minutes from lighting but it can vary.  For my installation the flue temp will top out at 600-700 degrees while on high w/bypass closed.
4) First turndown is partial, approximately halfway between high and cruise settings, for maybe 10 minutes or so, depending on how forgetful I am.
5) Final turndown = happy cruising!

This is for the BK Ashford 30 cat stove. Hopefully this helps.


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## MTASH

As a follow up, since my last post was based on memory, I did a cold start last night due to the fact we had some warm weather this week and I shut down to clean out ash and glass.  I was running the LP furnace to take the chill off but colder weather was moving back in tonight. So here's my account on my BK Ashford 30.2 CAT stove:

5:15 PM - Top down start using 5 splits, 2 'half' splits, 4 balled up paper towels and some kindling. 35F outside temp, 70F inside:





5:22 PM - Condor flue probe is @400F, latch door.
5:27 PM - Flue probe @600F.
5:38 PM - Engage CAT, flue is oscillating 550-600F with thermostat still on high (6:00 on the dial).




5:48 PM - Room temp @73F, turn thermostat down to med-high (about 4.5 or 4:30 on the dial).
6:10 PM - Room temp @75F, flue @ 550F, CAT @1:00, turn thermostat down to cruise setting (slightly above 3:00 on the dial). This picture is on med-high prior to turn down:




6:25 PM - Flue @400F, CAT @ 1:00.
9:40 PM - Flue oscillating 350-400F, CAT @12:00, room temperature stable at 76F.
8:30 AM this morning: Flue oscillating 250-300F, CAT @10:00, room temp @74F, outside temp 23F.  I could've bumped the thermostat up to med-high and got another 1-2 hours out of it but decided to do a reload. This is what was left over after 15+ hours:




A couple of thoughts - I am on a short stack (12') so it takes a bit longer to get going when outside temps are in the mid-30s. Normally I would've waited until morning when the temperature was colder, but the CHO (Chief Heating Officer) and her 4-legged minions wanted a fire last evening. Some loads catch quicker, but I typically only do about 6 cold starts a season and conditions vary, so I don't have a lot to compare.

I only use 5-6 splits on a cold start.  I can fit 8-10 splits, but I've found that if I load that full it takes longer to catch, produces more smoke and slows the overall progress.  I ordinarily do 12 +/- hour planned reloads anyway, so it really isn't much advantage for me to cram it full on a cold start.  Unfortunately I couldn't document smoke output last night because it was already dark outside.

Hopefully this is informational for someone. Since I am doing this, I decided to document my hot reload, which is in my next post below.


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## MTASH

Continuing from my post above, I thought it might also be helpful to document a hot reload for those that burn 24/7.

8:30 AM this morning: Flue oscillating 250-300F, CAT @10:00, room temp @74F, outside temp 23F.  I opened CAT bypass, allowed to cool for a couple minutes, raked out what was left over (shown in my previous post), and added 5-splits: 




A couple 5-10 second bursts with my butane creme-brulee torch to jumpstart the load, and off we go (no, I don't make creme-brulee, but it's a handy torch!). On a hot reload I turn thermostat back to high, latch the door right away and close the CAT bypass:




8:40 AM - Flue is back up to 400F. Very little smoke from chimney:





8:55 AM - Flue is at 550F, CAT @12:00. Turn thermostat down to med-high (4.5 or 4:30 on the dial).
9:15 AM - Flue @550F, CAT @2:00, room @76F. Turn thermostat down to cruise (slightly above 3:00 on the dial).

I got distracted, but by 11:00 AM the flue was @400 and CAT @1:00, and room temperature was stable @76F. Outside temp up to 28F, projected high is 30F today. My next reload will be between 8-9:00 this evening with another 4-5 splits.

A note about reloads - during these warmer outside temperatures (20F+) I can play Tetris, cram the stove full w/8-10 splits and get a 24-30 hour burn. But with my daily routine, I find it easier to reload twice a day with 4-5 splits, which means less fussing with the load (no Tetris) and quicker light off.

At about 0-20F I do the same thing with 6-8 splits per 12 hour load. This works pretty well until outside temps drop below 0F.  I think the shortest load I've seen so far was a full load of 10 splits at about 9 hours when outside temps were -24F to -37F. At those temperatures I cram full at 6:00 AM, add a few splits when I get home from work, then cram another full load before bed. Rinse, repeat the next day.

Also, please remember your results may vary.  My home is only about 1350 SF, single-level, moderately insulated, and this is what works for my circumstances. My times will vary somewhat with each different load, and how closely I pay attention. Hopefully it's helpful for someone.


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## pdxwoodlover

Thank you, begreen, for this excellent information. I have a Jotul F400 Castine (which is all E/W loading) and have completely switched to top-down fires. What made all the difference in getting the load ignited relatively quickly was to insert thin sleepers (spacers) between each layer. This is something I learned from a related thread, where a member named Pen emphasized that the splits "need air between them vertically but need to be very close together horizontally." Without the sleepers, it took forever for the bottom splits to catch. Now, with the sleepers in place, I have a roaring fire in no time, pretty much as fast as when doing a bottom-up.

But in contrast with what you do, begreen, I build a stack of three layers:  three bigger splits at the bottom, smaller splits in the middle, kindling and then newspaper on top, with each layer separated by a thin sleeper (a half-length piece of kindling).




15 minutes after lighting:




After about 25 minutes, cruising at 550 degrees or so:




But now I'm curious about begreen's method of nestling the newspaper and kindling between the front and back logs. I'll try it next time.

This is my first post. I have been a lurker for the past two years, and have learned so much from all of you. Thank you for this fantastic forum!


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## begreen

Yes, that looks like it would take off pretty quickly. I didn't do a lot of top-down starts until about 5 yrs ago. Now I usually top-down start, in particular, because I see less smoke on startup. Back in the old days my usual starting method with the Castine was with two 1.5" sleepers on the bottom, about 6" apart. The sleepers were from 2x4 scrap split in half. Then the splits were stacked on top with no special gaps or spacing. The irregularities in the wood took care of that. Then I would put 1/4 of a SuperCedar puck in between the sleepers and nudge it under the middle of the pile. Light the SC with a BBQ lighter and let it burn.


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## bigealta

I also have a Jotul f400 Castine like pdxwoodlover. I just made a short vid to show what lighting my top down looks like at start up. I love it and am a convert from the old school bottom lighting technique.  Hope this can help someone. This has been a great website packed with super helpful people. Thank you.
Youtube vid: Using 1 fatwood piece, sticks and oak splits seasoned 1 year.


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## begreen

Looks great. The Castine starts secondary combustion pretty quickly. I started out going by stovetop temp for closing the air down but found that it took a long time for the thick stovetop to warm up. Meanwhile, the fire was showing me that it was time to start closing down the air. This could be with a 250º stovetop on a cold start.


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## MR. GLO

BigJ273 said:


> Has anyone used the Auber digital thermometer with the magnetic probe attachment U attach to the stove?  Thinkin bout getting one to keep an eye on stove temp. Not pipe temp.


I have it on the top left side of the stove.   Not sure if I should move the probe to the top of the stove griddle.  I am guessing no matter where I put it I will eventually learn what's right.    Best purchase I made so far.  One unit the bed room and one in the basement (sells as a kit).  The basement unit I have located in front of the stove about 5 feet away against the stairway wall and a  nest camera looking at it and the stove flames.


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## begreen

Stove specific burning issues should be in an independent thread.


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## St. Coemgen

begreen said:


> There are 3 instruments shown.
> 
> A Condar probe thermometer on the double-wall stove pipe.
> The stovetop temperature on a Sandhill thermometer
> A digital probe readout for the flue using an Auber AT100



IMHO - the only one that matters is the stove top (2).  Because that is what is mostly heating your space.

The others simply show temps of flue gas, which can be quite high even at startup (and especially at startup since then the most air is added). But that really mean little. As startup flue gas temps do next to nothing to heating your space with a double walled stove pipe which you seem to have.

So exactly... what was the point of this post?


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## ABMax24

St. Coemgen said:


> IMHO - the only one that matters is the stove top (2).  Because that is what is mostly heating your space.
> 
> The others simply show temps of flue gas, which can be quite high even at startup (and especially at startup since then the most air is added). But that really mean little. As startup flue gas temps do next to nothing to heating your space with a double walled stove pipe which you seem to have.
> 
> So exactly... what was the point of this post?



Flue temp is extremely important in the safe operation of the stove, mainly so the safe operating limits of the stove pipe are not exceeded.

It is also important in the efficient operation of the stove, spiking the flue at say 1200F while heating up the stove may warm it up faster, but also sends over 50% of the heat from the wood straight up the flue.

Flue temp also gives an indication (within reason) of what the stove top temp is, assuming it is understood that the stove top temp lags behind changes in flue temp. Which again goes back to safety, because its easy to have a spike of 1000+F in the flue, and never see that on the stove top.


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## St. Coemgen

ABMax24 said:


> Flue temp is extremely important in the safe operation of the stove, mainly so the safe operating limits of the stove pipe are not exceeded.
> 
> It is also important in the efficient operation of the stove, spiking the flue at say 1200F while heating up the stove may warm it up faster, but also sends over 50% of the heat from the wood straight up the flue.
> 
> Flue temp also gives an indication (within reason) of what the stove top temp is, assuming it is understood that the stove top temp lags behind changes in flue temp. Which again goes back to safety, because its easy to have a spike of 1000+F in the flue, and never see that on the stove top.



First, modern stoves and flues are designed to deal with high temps. Extra high temps are mostly only found in a chimney fire, and any modern flue should also be coded to deal with a chimney fire.

Second, none of the temps reported get anywhere near the temps you report "of concern".

And clamming flue temps are a definiton of "efficiency" are dubious.  Most efficiency in a modern stove happens in the stove, not in the flue. Catalytic stoves, as just one example.  If you have a bot bellied stove from 1880, then you may be correct. But if not....

And even short term high temps are also suppose to be coded into the flue by code. So are also okay, and within safety margins (if the flue was installed to code). That is, flue temps are only needed for the neophyte (and as a backup if you never cleaned your flue and have a chimney fire). After a while, you should "get it", and learn how to deal with your stove properly.

So the flues, if modern, already are coded into spikes in temps, etc.. Even to the extremes you mentioned.

If one is running temps at such extremes constantly, then they are doing something wrong.

*And again... These were start up temps.* These always get the most blasts of air, and are often a lot hotter then "constant running" temps. So you need to put that into perspective.

Hope this helps.


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## ABMax24

St. Coemgen said:


> First, modern stoves and flues are designed to deal with high temps. Extra high temps are mostly only found in a chimney fire, and any modern flue should also be coded to deal with a chimney fire.
> 
> Second, none of the temps reported get anywhere near the temps you report "of concern".
> 
> And clamming flue temps are a definiton of "efficiency" are dubious.  Most efficiency in a modern stove happens in the stove, not in the flue. Catalytic stoves, as just one example.  If you have a bot bellied stove from 1880, then you may be correct. But if not....
> 
> And even short term high temps are also suppose to be coded into the flue by code. So are also okay, and within safety margins (if the flue was installed to code). That is, flue temps are only needed for the neophyte (and as a backup if you never cleaned your flue and have a chimney fire). After a while, you should "get it", and learn how to deal with your stove properly.
> 
> So the flues, if modern, already are coded into spikes in temps, etc.. Even to the extremes you mentioned.
> 
> If one is running temps at such extremes constantly, then they are doing something wrong.
> 
> *And again... These were start up temps.* These always get the most blasts of air, and are often a lot hotter then "constant running" temps. So you need to put that into perspective.
> 
> Hope this helps.



All that is fine and dandy if the stove is installed exactly per the recommended setup given by the manufacturer, most are not, there's a difference between meeting code, and the best install practice. My stove can hit 1600F flue temps 10 minutes after lighting, well beyond the 1400F brief forced firing my stove pipe is designed for, and into the 2100F max limit for a chimney fire, this is not caused by a chimney fire either, solely based on flue gas leaving the stove. A temperature that would never be seen on a STT gauge, a device you champion as the best and only device to use.

Sure chimneys are rated to a certain temperature, and yes can be pushed to that temperature, but it also follows that limiting high temperature thermal cycles of these components ensures longer life.

If you don't like flue temps being used for efficiency calculations then please write to the EPA, or CSA, or Intertek, or any other testing agencies that have adopted the stack loss method as the accepted methodology for confirming wood stove efficiency. Yes efficiency is determined by the design of the stove, but heat that escapes the stove and goes up the flue clearly isn't being transferred to the room, ie lost efficiency. 

If you choose to run high flue temps on startup go ahead, I and many others choose to run lower flue temps on startup to ensure more of our hard work (in the form of firewood) goes into our homes as heat.

I fail to see the short comings in this how-to article by @begreen that you are pointing out. I think the majority of members on this forum, and stove manufacturers alike, will agree that this article provides safe and proven guidance on the operation of a wood stove.


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## begreen

The point of the posting is education. It is specific to startups (that's in the title). Not everyone is familiar with stove burning. Many have no reference to what is normal. Yes, modern flue systems can take high temp, but sustained, repeated runs at high temp will degrade the system quicker and solely using the stovetop temperature can lead to a major increase in emissions and inefficiency due to wasted fuel. Keeping flue temps within reason reduces fuel waste, meaning more heat reserved for the house and a longer burn time. Stovetop temperature is a lagging indicator. There's no point in wasting fuel.

This website has a wealth of good information. The third video on this page of efficient wood burning also shows top-down lighting.





						A non-commercial service in support of responsible home heating with wood - Wood Heat Videos
					

The Wood Heat Organization was formed to support the public in the responsible use of wood energy in the home. We fulfill our mandate by providing reliable information, by conducting research into wood heating-related issues and by representing the public interest in discussions of policies that...




					woodheat.org


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## clancey

Just a wonderful thread and I am reading the whole thing "little by little"...I am assuming most wood stove burners like the NS burn because of being able to put more wood in the box in the winter time...Does everyone who lights a fire have to keep the door to the stove ajar?. I am going to get just the temperature gauge that you put on the piping --is this adequate? Great information here and I am getting my feet wet  here to learn about "wood burning"..thanks clancey


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## begreen

A probe thermometer in the double-wall stove pipe will be very helpful. It should be placed about 18-21" above the stovetop. You may also want a stovetop thermometer as a guide for cooking temperature, but for efficient burning, it is less helpful than the flue thermometer.


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## clancey

Thanks how about the EW loading or the NS loading why the difference--? I am thinking that the NS loading with the end of the logs facing you would be more popular because one could load more logs into it...? When you light a stove do you have to keep the door open a bit in the beginning--these questions are important for me to know? I need to contemplate fully on this--lol getting geared up so to speak..lol clancey


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## bholler

clancey said:


> Thanks how about the EW loading or the NS loading why the difference--? I am thinking that the NS loading with the end of the logs facing you would be more popular because one could load more logs into it...? When you light a stove do you have to keep the door open a bit in the beginning--these questions are important for me to know? I need to contemplate fully on this--lol getting geared up so to speak..lol clancey


Ew vs ns is a combination of personal preference and stove design.   Either works but I prefer ns.  As far as leaving the door cracked that is determined by the stove chimney wood outside temp house pressure and many other variables.   There is no way to know if you will need to or not untill you try it.


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## begreen

Yes, N/S is my preference. One can put more wood in the stove without concerns of logs rolling into the glass.


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## NickW

clancey said:


> Just a wonderful thread and I am reading the whole thing "little by little"...I am assuming most wood stove burners like the NS burn because of being able to put more wood in the box in the winter time...Does everyone who lights a fire have to keep the door to the stove ajar?. I am going to get just the temperature gauge that you put on the piping --is this adequate? Great information here and I am getting my feet wet  here to learn about "wood burning"..thanks clancey


I only need to keep the door open a crack on cold starts or low coals when I lose my draft. Hot reloads the bottom logs are lit before I'm done reloading and it still has draft with the door closed and air open. Cold starts for me are door fully open 5-10 minutes, 1" for 5 minutes, 1/4" for 5 minutes (or so...). As @bholler said, there are a lot of variables.


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## bigealta

NickW said:


> I only need to keep the door open a crack on cold starts or low coals when I lose my draft. Hot reloads the bottom logs are lit before I'm done reloading and it still has draft with the door closed and air open. Cold starts for me are door fully open 5-10 minutes, 1" for 5 minutes, 1/4" for 5 minutes (or so...). As @bholler said, there are a lot of variables.s


You should try Top Down on Cold Starts. With old style bottom up i used to also need to crack the door for a while. With top down, The door gets closed immediately and the secondary flames start firing within 3-4 minutes.


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## Split

This is good info in here. Thanks. So it's generally OK on starts to have flue Temps go up to around 1200? Mine spikes then heads down to stay at 900-1000 for a while then goes down slowly. I'm thinking this year, now that I have properly seasoned wood that I might be able to shut down the air intakes sooner so I don't get such  high spikes. Also I'm hoping by shutting it down a bit earlier I'm able to put more energy into heating the stove/room.


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## NickW

Split said:


> This is good info in here. Thanks. So it's generally OK on starts to have flue Temps go up to around 1200? Mine spikes then heads down to stay at 900-1000 for a while then goes down slowly. I'm thinking this year, now that I have properly seasoned wood that I might be able to shut down the air intakes sooner so I don't get such  high spikes. Also I'm hoping by shutting it down a bit earlier I'm able to put more energy into heating the stove/room.


I set the alarm on my flue probe at 900 and try to not set it off. I believe it is best to stay under 1000F to prolong the life of the flue. 

Yes, the whole burning experience is soooo much better with properly seasoned wood. My first year with "OK, but not great" wood was better than the old smoke dragon. The second season was drastically improved in all ways from the first from start up to length of time for effective heat to coaling.


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## jfhull71

begreen said:


> Questions about starting a fire and avoiding a runaway stove come up so frequently I decided to document starting our stove. This is a Pacific Energy Alderlea T6 with about a 3 cu ft firebox. The stove is connected to a straight-up, 20' interior flue. The outside ambient temperature is 34ºF. The blower was off all the time for these shots. The firewood is douglas fir at about 17% moisture content. This is a N/S loading. An E/W loading start will follow.
> 
> NOTE: as testing will show, the older Condar flue thermometer is reading low. It's due for replacement.
> 
> There are 3 instruments shown.
> 
> A Condar probe thermometer on the double-wall stove pipe.
> The stovetop temperature on a Sandhill thermometer
> A digital probe readout for the flue using an Auber AT100
> 
> View attachment 255400
> 
> Here is the stove loaded with a gap in the middle for a top-down start. 3 balls of newspaper and a few flakes of kindling on top.
> 
> View attachment 255401
> 
> Fire started, flue temp and stove top temp is <100ºF. Door left open about 1/2".
> 
> View attachment 255402
> 
> Time to insert a split into the gap then close the door, with the air control wide open. This picture is showing the stove, the Condar, the stove top, and the Auber.
> 
> View attachment 255403
> 
> Dry doug fir takes off quickly. This is about 5 minutes later, time to reduce the air to 50%. There will be no creosote worry here even though the stove top temperature is low.
> 
> View attachment 255404
> 
> Just a few minutes later and secondary burn is getting robust. Reduce air to about 70% closed. Note how stove top  temp is still low and the probe flue thermometer is lagging far behind the digital probe. The digital probe reacts almost instantly.
> 
> View attachment 255405
> 
> After 5 minutes the fire is going strong, close down air almost all the way, maybe 85%. If it was 10º colder outside I would be closing the air all the way due to increased draft. Note the stove top temp. This is why it is not helpful in a cold start. It takes time to heat up the mass of the stove, while the flue temp is already very high. Unfortunately, the Condar flue probe is sluggish which is less helpful, but combined with the visual cue from the firebox it's obvious that the air needs to be closed down until the flames slow down.
> 
> View attachment 255406
> 
> Just a few minutes later the fire settles down. Secondary combustion is now robust. No need to change anything. Stove top temp still coming up.
> 
> View attachment 255407
> 
> The stove has been cruising for 20 minutes and is almost up to temperature.  The stove top settled at 625º. The analog probe thermometer is finally catching up to the digital probe.
> 
> Note that this is just one example of a N/S load of softwood in a large stove. There are many variations. This load of wood has a lot of young growth and sapwood in it so it is not as dense as old growth doug fir and it burns quicker with less heat. Every fire will have a somewhat unique character depending on firebox size, how much fuel is loaded, how tightly it is packed, outside temperature, and mostly, the operator.  If you don't have thermometers, consider one, at least for the flue temp. And use your eyes for visual cues about the stage of the burn.
> Hope that helps.


Don't know how you could runaway an EPA stove (without gasoline and the door open) with the combustion air as restricted as it is


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## NickW

You can absolutely have a runaway with an EPA stove. I guarantee I could melt my NC30 where it sits if I tried. I could probably overfire the Stratford II also, but it would take a while...


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## ericm979

I can get my EPA Flame Energy stove to run away too.

I think that for the recirculating type EPA stoves, the limitation is on how low you can adjust the air.  The air tubes need a certain amount of air to burn the smoke. If they let you cut off the air too far, reburn would stop and the stove would smoke.

My understanding is that this is less of a limitation on a catalyst type EPA stove.


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## begreen

jfhull71 said:


> Don't know how you could runaway an EPA stove (without gasoline and the door open) with the combustion air as restricted as it is


With decent draft and dry wood it's pretty easy to do. There's plenty of air for a roaring fire. Turning it down in a timely fashion is key to avoiding overfire and wasting a lot of heat up the flue.


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## bigealta

jfhull71 said:


> Don't know how you could runaway an EPA stove (without gasoline and the door open) with the combustion air as restricted as it is


Ash pan door left open or even cracked will run away faster than usane bolt.


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## begreen

bigealta said:


> Ash pan door left open or even cracked will run away faster than usane bolt.


DDT (Don't do that)


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## jfhull71

Drolet 1800 coals heavily and my flue is 13'3" from stove top... Installation manual"recommended" a 1'extender on all installations.... I'm thinking a 18" or 24" may be better for my installation...seeing Eddy current drafting over the roof on hot reloads that smoke for 5 minutes.... problem is I can't find any of these on the Drolet website.... I have found other brands but nothing from SBI, I need to make sure it's compatible with my SBI liner and rain cap before ordering....any suggestions from the group?
Stove never smokes the house, but once secondaries die all I end up with is half a stove of coals... even with air control wide open.


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## begreen

When you say SBI liner, was this purchased from the Drolet website?

Heavy coaling can also be a symptom of wood that has more moisture in its core and is not fully seasoned. It takes longer to burn down. Open up the air 50% and put a couple 2" splits on top to help provide heat while burning down the coals.


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## jfhull71

No purchased through a US site.... but liner and all components had SBI decals. And it's not moisture....wood across species is all 20% or lower and I don't have time for splits to burn down coals....I work for a living and need to load and go 5 days a week


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## begreen

jfhull71 said:


> No purchased through a US site.... but liner and all components had SBI decals. And it's not moisture....wood across species is all 20% or lower and I don't have time for splits to burn down coals....I work for a living and need to load and go 5 days a week


This is 6" stainless chimney liner on a Drolet 1800 insert, correct? If so, this should work.








						Chimney Flue Extender! ChimneyLinerKits.com
					

Chimney Flue Extender for stoves and fireplace inserts that burn gas, wood, coal and pellets. The extender is made of 316L stainless steel and come with a life time warranty.



					www.chimneylinerkit.com


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## jfhull71

begreen said:


> This is 6" stainless chimney liner on a Drolet 1800 insert, correct? If so, this should work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chimney Flue Extender! ChimneyLinerKits.com
> 
> 
> Chimney Flue Extender for stoves and fireplace inserts that burn gas, wood, coal and pellets. The extender is made of 316L stainless steel and come with a life time warranty.
> 
> 
> 
> www.chimneylinerkit.com


Correct and thank you, just Wanted to get the right part that works with my liner system, thanks for the link


----------

