# Portable A/C vs. Ductless



## hilly (Jun 4, 2016)

Hello,
I live in an A-frame house with the three bedrooms upstairs. One room in particular gets really hot in the summer; this of course, is the room the 3 year old is in. My wife and I are debating whether to get one portable A/C unit for the one room and leaving the other 2 rooms alone or getting a 3 head mini duct system so the entire upstairs is cool.

Obviously the cost of the portable a/c is much lower, but what about longevity? Also, any ball park figures on the cost of a ductless minisplit?
Thanks,
Stu


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## claydogg84 (Jun 4, 2016)

I had a portable unit years ago and absolutely hated it. You have to keep an eye on the water pan. If you waited too long it would be too full to move.


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## begreen (Jun 4, 2016)

No option for putting in a $200 window unit? A 3 head mini-split system would be much more costly. Like maybe a few thousand or more.


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## hilly (Jun 5, 2016)

Thanks Claydogg. It's good to hear the experience others have had. 
Begreen, the window in the room is much too small unfortunately. The few thousand is what I'm bracing myself for.


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## LowbanksArcher (Jun 5, 2016)

I have a portable unit and hate it. Takes up a lot of space with the big ugly hose/duct that goes out the window, and is very loud. All the sound of the unit is inside your house, compared to a regular window unit where all that sound is outside. Any way to install a window unit?

Sent from my LG-H812 using Tapatalk


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## maple1 (Jun 5, 2016)

You should be factoring in heating to this decision also.


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## hilly (Jun 5, 2016)

Thanks for the help. A window unit just isn't feasible in that location. I think taking out and modifying the window would negate any savings by going with an in window unit. The room we are concerned about does need heat in the winter, so there would be a savings by using a heat pump vs. an electric baseboard, though I don't suspect the savings would be huge. 
Thanks again for all of your thoughts.


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## begreen (Jun 5, 2016)

hilly said:


> Thanks Claydogg. It's good to hear the experience others have had.
> Begreen, the window in the room is much too small unfortunately. The few thousand is what I'm bracing myself for.


Is there a larger window, say in an adjacent hallway that could accommodate a large window unit, maybe with a dedicated feed?


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## EatenByLimestone (Jun 5, 2016)

Can you cut down the heat with insulated shades?


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## BrotherBart (Jun 5, 2016)

Hard to imagine a window that can be opened that wouldn't accommodate one of the little 5,000 btu window units. It takes not a lot more window space than the window exhaust setup for a portable A/C unit. I have three of them.


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## hilly (Jun 5, 2016)

Thanks for your persistence. Sometimes I don't give up my assumptions easily.  I'll have a much closer look at the specs for the window units.


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## xman23 (Jun 6, 2016)

In my cabin, 1500 sq ft all open floor plan and well insulated. A 12000 btu window unit keeps the great room and loft bedroom at 70 when it's 95 outside. The back bedrooms aren't as cool but not bad. You can't beet the cost of a window unit that will do the job.


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## iamlucky13 (Jun 6, 2016)

One minisplit indoor unit per bedroom is probably overkill. Usually 2-4 of them heat or cool an entire house, but depend on open doors for good movement of air into rooms without their own indoor unit.

When I had my furnace replaced with a heat pump, one of the installers I got a quote from was really keen on ductless minisplits, so I told him to go ahead and quote a system and I'd consider it. It was a little over $10,000 for a 4-zone system. I think that was a lowball offer for that sized system at the time, because he was really eager for business during the recession. I've also heard single-zone systems usually cost around $5000 installed. So there's a rough ballpark, but an actual quote could obviously be more or less.

The first thing I'd do is figure out what your annual heating cost is. The easiest way to ballpark that is probably to take a full year's electricity bills, sum them up, then subtract the lowest bill multiplied by the number of bills per year...or even better, take the average of multiple years.

For ductless heat pumps versus baseboards, your annual savings should be at least 1/2, perhaps even 2/3 of that amount. If you multiply that by an expected payback period, maybe 10 or 15 years, and get a number bigger than the cost of installing the system, then it looks like you could save money making the change. If you get a number smaller than the cost of install, then you don't save money on your heating, but you can compare it to the cost of a window unit, especially if you have to modify the window, to see which is the better deal. Or if the costs are at least close enough, you might still go ductless for the benefit of whole house air conditioning.

If you don't have to modify the window, though, a small window unit is probably the way to go if all you need to do is keep one room at a more reasonable temperature.


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## hilly (Jun 7, 2016)

Thanks so much for all of the feedback. It is helping a significant amount. We were getting a quote today so I'll post up here what it turns out to be.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jun 8, 2016)

Those mini splits really shine for low energy use and the heat factor is a lot cheaper than baseboard resistance.


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## Ashful (Jun 8, 2016)

I cooled for more than 30 years with window and wall mounted portables, and it gets the job done, but they're noisy, ugly, and cost a small fortune to run.  I've since installed four mini-split systems, and I love them.  I have stuck solely with the Mitsubishi MSZ/MUZ systems, but I know there are now many others on the market, as well.  They're silent, both inside and out, and super efficient.  Installed cost is about $2500 for the outdoor unit plus $700 for each indoor unit, cooling only.  If you add heat pump, a few hundred more.  I'd not even consider another portable unit today.

One thing you should know, if doing cooling only, is there are many indoor unit options.  Half the time, the installers don't even know about these.  You can get units that sit between two joists, so it's as invisible as a central AC supply vent, ones that fit between two wall studs, under cabinet toe-kicks, etc.  Definitely worth considering, if you don't want to look at a wall-mounted indoor unit.


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## BrotherBart (Jun 8, 2016)

Waiting to get the heat pump recharged years ago I bought a window unit for upstairs to keep my wife cool while I was at work. The electric bill dropped like a rock and I didn't have to turn the downstairs into a meat locker just to keep the upstairs cool. Between that and the wood heat the next time the heat pump died I left it dead.

Watch Target at the end of the summer. I buy 5,000-7000 BTU window shakers for $28 to $35 apiece on clearance at season end. And just junk'em when they get tired.

Now that prices are coming down I am going to try a window unit heat pump. Too dang hard to figure out a configuration for mini-splits in a center hall colonial.


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## hilly (Jun 8, 2016)

I'm still waiting on the quote, but I measured the window. Unfortunately the window (a slider) only has a 14 3/8" opening and there are no window ac units I can find that fit. Thanks again for all of your thoughts they are quite helpful.


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## begreen (Jun 9, 2016)

Frigidaire makes casement AC units.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0042JXF7U/?tag=hearthamazon-20


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## maple1 (Jun 9, 2016)

*You can get units that sit between two joists, so it's as invisible as a central AC supply vent*

Those caught my eye in the Mitsu catalogue I picked up, but I think they need 24" spacing (trusses?) & not 16" spacing (joists). I think I have a spot in the ceiling of my first floor stair landing where one would work very well & send conditioned air to 4 rooms in 4 different directions, but it's 16" joists there so one wouldn't fit.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jun 9, 2016)

hilly said:


> I'm still waiting on the quote, but I measured the window. Unfortunately the window (a slider) only has a 14 3/8" opening and there are no window ac units I can find that fit. Thanks again for all of your thoughts they are quite helpful.


I can tell you from experience they just dont make a window unit that thin. THinnest i found was 15.5. They do make a special thin and tall AC window unit for a ridiculous price like $400  +


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## begreen (Jun 9, 2016)

The Frigidaire casements have 14.2" listed as their width, but yes they are very pricey.


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## iamlucky13 (Jun 9, 2016)

Ashful said:


> Installed cost is about $2500 for the outdoor unit plus $700 for each indoor unit, cooling only.



Incredible. I thought the east coast was supposed to be more expensive than the west coast, but that's *HALF* what we were quoted. Yes, we were looking at heat pumps not AC, and didn't shop that hard for ductless models, but the difference is still astounding.

I think there's a lot of useful arrangements that can be made by further developing the mini-split concept, beyond just hiding them in joist bays, but I don't want to hijack the thread to throw around my semi-random ideas. The mere fact that units now exist which can be less obtrusive and hopefully quieter than the wall-mounted type is a good development.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jun 9, 2016)

Kits from 9000 BTUs to 18000  can be had from Home depot or lowes For around $1000 to $1500.  Larger capacity models are more. Some of the 9000 Btu units run on a very low power draw as low as 3 amps for the ultra super efficient models. The markup from installers can be quite significant if your not buying the units directly. SOme DIY do a complete install and hire a HVAC tech to do the final testing and inspection ans well as sign of on the job for warranty purposes.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jun 9, 2016)

Im thinking about trying one of these installs myself soon. ID want the both heat and cool option because we need heat 8-9 months a year and only cooling occasionally during summer.


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## hilly (Jun 9, 2016)

You guys are great! This conversation is quite helpful. I did lots of checking and I can't find any window ac unit the right dimensions. I'm still waiting on the quote but a family friend installed a ductless system himself and has offered to help us. I'm thinking this is the way to go. 
Thanks again!


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## Ashful (Jun 10, 2016)

iamlucky13 said:


> Incredible. I thought the east coast was supposed to be more expensive than the west coast, but that's *HALF* what we were quoted. Yes, we were looking at heat pumps not AC, and didn't shop that hard for ductless models, but the difference is still astounding.


Make sure you're comparing apples to apples.  In the third floor of that particular house (no longer live there), I was quoted $12,000 for high-velocity ducted system vs. $3500 for mini-split.  Traditional ducted system would not have worked there, but would have probably cost me $8000 - $10,000.  So, if you're not looking at the price of a Mitsubishi minisplit of equal size, the east/west price comparison is probably meaningless.


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## maple1 (Jun 10, 2016)

hilly said:


> You guys are great! This conversation is quite helpful. I did lots of checking and I can't find any window ac unit the right dimensions. I'm still waiting on the quote but a family friend installed a ductless system himself and has offered to help us. I'm thinking this is the way to go.
> Thanks again!



If going ductless, get a heatpump and not just an a/c unit. It will pay dividends year-round, especially if you use resistance electric for heat now.


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## velvetfoot (Jun 10, 2016)

BrotherBart said:


> I am going to try a window unit heat pump.


I never heard of such a thing.


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## BrotherBart (Jun 10, 2016)

velvetfoot said:


> I never heard of such a thing.



https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00IYQYG8O/?tag=hearthamazon-20


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## iamlucky13 (Jun 10, 2016)

Ashful said:


> Make sure you're comparing apples to apples.  In the third floor of that particular house (no longer live there), I was quoted $12,000 for high-velocity ducted system vs. $3500 for mini-split.  Traditional ducted system would not have worked there, but would have probably cost me $8000 - $10,000.  So, if you're not looking at the price of a Mitsubishi minisplit of equal size, the east/west price comparison is probably meaningless.



The quote I had was $10,000 for an LG 36,000 BTU outdoor unit, and 4 x 9,000 BTU indoor units, plus install, which I think involved outdoor runs (cheaper, but uglier) for the 2nd floor linesets. The listed hardware cost alone for the indoor units, not including install, lineset, wiring, or sales tax, was $880 each. I'm also under the impression Mitsubishi is generally regarded as a bit better than LG for HVAC.

The quote for a ducted system (existing ducts) was a little over $7000. Between the cost difference, the visibility of the wall units, and uncertainty about how well heat from the minisplits would be distributed given our home's layout, I stuck with the ducted system.

It seemed to me that if you don't have an existing ducted heating system, a ductless mini-split is the way to go. If you do, it's a toss-up, depending in part how open your floor plan is.


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## Ashful (Jun 10, 2016)

Wow, yeah your mini split pricing is way beyond what I pay here.  Just did another last year in my shop, all Mitsubishi:

30,000 BTU outdoor unit
Outdoor wall mount kit
2 Line sets @ 30' each
2 indoor units
2 MKZ auto-change over thermostats

System does heating and cooling.  Can't remember price (quote published here before), but it was close to $5000, installed.


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## hilly (Jun 10, 2016)

I just got the quote. It was for a ductless mini split (27 000 BTU) with three heads. Installed the price was $11 000. Unfortunately, that's too much for us so we will have to look at some alternatives.


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## begreen (Jun 10, 2016)

Is there a center hallway upstairs with a window at the end? If yes, how wide is the entire window assembly? (not just casement opening).


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## iamlucky13 (Jun 10, 2016)

hilly said:


> I just got the quote. It was for a ductless mini split (27 000 BTU) with three heads. Installed the price was $11 000. Unfortunately, that's too much for us so we will have to look at some alternatives.



That's too bad. What about getting a contractor to quote enlarging the window? Personally, it doesn't seem worth it just to fit an AC unit in it, but would a larger window with more view and light make the room enough nicer to possibly justify it?

Also, we've been talking only about increasing the cooling, what about decreasing the heat gain? You say that room is getting warmer than the others, so I assume it's on the sunny side of the house, but I'm wondering how the insulation and sealing is. Maybe it can be kept cooler with improvements there.

Related to that, we keep our upstairs mostly comfortable opening multiple windows in the evening once the outdoor temp is below the indoor, and closing them in the morning once the outdoor temperature is warmer than the indoor. Occasionally we have to also run a fan. It takes a bit of forethought, and doesn't keep the temperature quite as well controlled as an air conditioner would, but it's free.


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## begreen (Jun 10, 2016)

That is my thinking, replace the window. But I would probably do a central upstairs window if there is one. That's why I asked if there is a window in a hallway. The cost of a dedicated circuit + new window + AC would be much less than the mini-split quote.


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## iamlucky13 (Jun 10, 2016)

Ashful said:


> Wow, yeah your mini split pricing is way beyond what I pay here.



I'm starting to think the higher prevalence of AC everywhere else must help keep prices down compared to the NW. I'm under the impression installers out here spend as much time looking for customers than they do on paid work, and most of the paid work is low dollar value maintenance.

I ran into this the other day and looked it up again:
https://www.eia.gov/consumption/residential/reports/2009/air-conditioning.cfm

Even with about 80% of the west region's population being in California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Nevada, we have significantly the lowest rates of installed AC. Another source put Seattle at 13% having some form of central AC. I assume the stats include heat pumps. And with such low prevalence, it's a good bet there's heavy bias towards high value homes, perhaps with an associated tendency towards higher prices.

For hilly's area, a bit north of here, it looks like about 11% have central AC - not an active market. I managed to find a source indicating for hilly's area up in BC, 23% have any form of AC:
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/16-002-x/2011002/part-partie3-eng.htm


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## Ashful (Jun 10, 2016)

iamlucky13 said:


> I'm starting to think the higher prevalence of AC everywhere else must help keep prices down compared to the NW. I'm under the impression installers out here spend as much time looking for customers than they do on paid work, and most of the paid work is low dollar value maintenance.


That may be the case.  I grew up without AC, but I wouldn't live without it today.  I do not know of a new home without it, and even older homes without AC are pretty rare (and hard to sell) around here.  Our summer humidity is like living on a sponge, without AC.


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## begreen (Jun 10, 2016)

Summers here in WA and BC are the opposite and quite low humidity. Winter is when we are damp.

This house is an A frame and if the baby's room faces west, there is little between it and the hot roof. Removing the drywall on the roof side and replacing insulation with a reflective sided foam insulation could help.


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## hilly (Jun 10, 2016)

Thanks so much for all your input! I've drawn the floor plan so you can see what I'm dealing with. If any of the dimensions are strange its because I was guessing!


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## hilly (Jun 10, 2016)

At this point I was thinking a couple of things, though it depends on what my wife thinks. I was thinking of putting an 8000 BTU unit in the bathroom with the hope that I can keep the child's room cold enough. Then I was thinking of possibly putting another 8000 BTU unit in bedroom #1 with the hopes that I can keep the other bedroom cool a well. 
What are your thoughts?


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## begreen (Jun 10, 2016)

OK, I see your dilemma now. It's going to be a challenge due to the orientation of the rooms relative to the roof slope. Just speculating, but I am wondering if an AC opening could be framed in here?



If not, I would get a quote for a single head mini-split AC unit that has the indoor head unit in the hallway at that location.


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## iamlucky13 (Jun 11, 2016)

An AC in bedroom 1 will help some, especially if the doors are open in both, but given that the other room is already getting hotter, probably not very satisfactory.

I'd expect adding a vent directly between them would help a bit more, but at the cost of some acoustic privacy. There are ways to mitigate this, though. One configuration is placing the vent high in the cooler room and low in warmer room, with air going up and down the wall cavity. Baffles in the cavity help reduce sound even more. Also, some transfer grills have built in baffles and sound-deadening materials.

The best way to link the rooms thermally would probably be use two jump ducts, with a fan in one (maybe even on a thermostat switch) to establish good circulation.

There's illustrations of a couple of these concepts here:
http://buildingscience.com/documents/information-sheets/information-sheet-transfer-grilles-and-ducts

The single unit minisplit in the hall is another good idea for a step up from a window unit in room 1. It would probably be the middle ground cost-wise, but might do pretty well at keeping the whole upstairs cool (again, if doors are kept open most of the time). A heat pump model would also earn back some of its cost on a lower heating bill.


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## begreen (Jun 11, 2016)

My suspicion is that heating the upper floor of the A frame is not a big issue, especially if there is a woodstove on the main floor. That's why I suggested AC only. But if heating is an issue then yes, a heat pump could be good.


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## hilly (Jun 11, 2016)

Thanks again for all of your input. One of the things we struggling with is the fact that we don't need it for heating. We need something, especially with a 3 year old, but we cannot justify $11k, even if it is only Canadian dollars! 

A friend said there were in-wall ac units. We might look at that for the child's room and just leave it at that.


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## maple1 (Jun 11, 2016)

How much a month do you spend on heating in the winter?


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## Seasoned Oak (Jul 20, 2016)

Hardest part is hiding the ugly outdoor fan unit ,iv seen them in some stupid places like on the front porch roof.


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## sportbikerider78 (Jul 20, 2016)

hilly said:


> Thanks again for all of your input. One of the things we struggling with is the fact that we don't need it for heating. We need something, especially with a 3 year old, but we cannot justify $11k, even if it is only Canadian dollars!
> 
> A friend said there were in-wall ac units. We might look at that for the child's room and just leave it at that.


That is basically, a window unit framed into the wall.


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## Don2222 (Jul 20, 2016)

hilly said:


> You guys are great! This conversation is quite helpful. I did lots of checking and I can't find any window ac unit the right dimensions. I'm still waiting on the quote but a family friend installed a ductless system himself and has offered to help us. I'm thinking this is the way to go.
> Thanks again!


Hello
What about cutting a square hole in the wall and install a "Thru - The - Wall" unit using a wall sleeve?
I spent from 8 AM to 9 PM one day to install it but now it is done and I just throw a cover on it in the winter. The 2 "Slide Out Chassis" units I installed in the wall 15 and 20 years ago are still going strong!
The new 10k unit I just put in was on sale on Walmart.com for $429 and the wall sleeve was $129 but I got The 230 vac unit to last longer with the stronger motors so the 120 vac units would be cheaper. 
See pics
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...onditioner-thru-the-wall-installation.155234/


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