# water well / foot valve problems



## chrisasst (Apr 22, 2012)

I have lived in my hose for 9 years now.  I have pulled up ( and dug up) my water well line about 6 times now. Reason why is my water pump will run all the time.  After the first couple of times, we replaced all the piping and the foot valve.  It was fine for about a year. Pump started to run again, found a different foot valve to use, that lasted maybe another year.  We did this again late last summer, it lasted a few months. We pulled it up again 2 weeks ago, cleaned the foot valve put it back in, and it was fine for 2 weeks. The foot valve had a very very tiny spec of dirt in it which was causing it not to seal. We pulled it up again yesterday, cleaned the foot valve, put a very fine mesh screen around the foot valve to try and keep the dirt out of it better,  that lasted about 4 hours.  We really don't know what else to do with this.  I know we need a submersible pump but a) those are expensive for us, b) we have a 3" well pipe, which means we need a 2 or 2 1/2 inch pump which are very hard to find it seems.  

So have any of you been through something like this?  We are trying to find another foot valve that might be more "forgiving", if you will, if it gets a tiny spec of dirt in it.  
The pump is eating alive with the electric use.  Any ideas?


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## Ehouse (Apr 23, 2012)

Two thoughts;  if you have a small leak in the line somewhere,  the pump won't maintain pressure and will run continously.  How deep is your well?   Try raising the foot valve a foot or so, maybe it's too close to the bottom.

Ehouse


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## FanMan (Apr 23, 2012)

Sometimes it's useful to have another check valve right below the pump.


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## homebrewz (Apr 23, 2012)

Is this an indoor mounted jet pump pulling water from a shallow well? Maybe its time to clean out and inspect the expansion tank.


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## coaly (Apr 23, 2012)

What is the pressure set to? If it can't come up to the cut off pressure, it will not shut off. Could have a slight air leak at pump housing not allowing it to come up to pressure as well.


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## MasterMech (Apr 24, 2012)

1.) What is your cut-out pressure?
2.) Does your pressure switch work properly? (Pump turns on & off at proper pressures)
3.) Does the system reach the cut-out pressure in a reasonable amount of time?  If it never reaches that pressure or takes a long time to do so then you either have a leak somewhere (pressure side) or the pump is failing.


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## chrisasst (Apr 24, 2012)

Yes, it is an indoor shallow well jet pump.  The leak has always been, 100% sure, at the foot valve.  Yesterday, we pulled it again. We put a check valve on it as well. So at the bottom it has the foot valve, then the check valve. So if / when the foot valve fails, the hope is the check valve will hold it and hopefully and debris that gets in the foot valve will wash away. SO FAR KNOCK ON WOOD, it is working good.


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## semipro (Apr 24, 2012)

Sometimes high pressure compressed air can be introduced into the very bottom of the well with the pickup tube removed.  This blows accumulated grit out the top of the well.  They call it "developing" a well.


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## Morgan (Apr 27, 2012)

Hopefully things are still going alright for you, but if not a couple tips I could pass on are, make sure your foot valve is a few feet of the bottom of the well.  You also want to make sure it is dead center in your well and not up against the side of your well.  You can buy a torque arrester and install in on your suction line.  Its intended application is to prevent torque rotation of submersible pumps when they start, but it your case would help to keep your foot valve from laying against the side of your well where it is likely picking up dirt.  They are cheap and should be available at any big box hardware store, they are also simple to install and I think they will help resolve your problem if you haven't done so already.


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## Black Jaque Janaviac (Apr 30, 2012)

Since replacing/cleaning footvalves seems to be "fixing" the problem for a time, and you seem to be finding them fouled when you service them; I think you are on track in assessing the problem.

Of course the best way to solve the problem is to prevent the sand and grit from getting sucked up into the water line to begin with.  To do this you'll need to know where the sand/grit is coming from.  Is it coming from the bottom of the well, or someplace below the intake?  Or is it dropping in from above the intake and getting sucked in as it is sinking past the intake?

If your intake is too close to the bottom raising it up can be the most simple.  If the well bottom is gradually filling in - this will only be a temporary fix.  To remedy it for long term you need to A) clean out the bottom of sediment and/or B) cement off or line off whatever layer is letting in the sediment.

Some wells are constructed into sand and gravel and are simply a pipe with a piece of perforated or slotted screen on the end to keep the sand out.  If the slots are too large they will let sand in.  Replacing the screen can fix this.

Some wells are drilled into bedrock.  These usually have a quantity of solid steel pipe seated into or on the bedrock and then just an open hole in the bedrock.  Depending on the nature of the rock you could be getting sand in from cracks in the rock or the rock itself could be poorly cemented sandstone.  In these cases if the sand is falling in from above the intake a liner or sleeve might be placed to seal off that layer.  Seeing as you've only got 3 inches of diameter to work with you'd have to go with a 2" liner.  See if you can modify a Fernco adapter to fill the gap between the 2" liner pipe and the 3" casing.  Put that adapter on the bottom of the liner pipe, the sand will eventually build up on top of this sometimes locking it in place.  The drawback to this solution is sometimes the layer providing the sand/grit is also the same layer providing the bulk of the water.


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## chrisasst (May 1, 2012)

Well, my pump is kicking on and off every so often again. Although it is not running all the time, yet. Just on off, (like a slow leak).  Usually after a week or two of this it starts running all the time.  So I dont know. My bathtub does drip, but I don't think it is enough to make the pump kick on as often as it does. 
We did raise the pipe up some the first or second year of dealing with this. Not really sure what kind of "construction" the well is.


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## Retired Guy (May 3, 2012)

We always put the check valve within a few feet of the jet pump.


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## chrisasst (May 7, 2012)

Retired Guy said:


> We always put the check valve within a few feet of the jet pump.


 

The water will still flow with it that close to the pump.?


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## 250psd (May 8, 2012)

What type of well pipe is it? "Golden jet?" the black plastic stuff? Are you using a heat gun to soften the pipe when installing your barbed fittings? Even though your fittings on the well pipe may not be leaking, they could be sucking air, causing the pump to short cycle/run. I use a heat gun to soften the tubing and 2 hose clamps for each barbed joint. Another option is to pull the pipe again and do an air test on the whole system.


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## chrisasst (May 9, 2012)

250psd said:


> What type of well pipe is it? "Golden jet?" the black plastic stuff? Are you using a heat gun to soften the pipe when installing your barbed fittings? Even though your fittings on the well pipe may not be leaking, they could be sucking air, causing the pump to short cycle/run. I use a heat gun to soften the tubing and 2 hose clamps for each barbed joint. Another option is to pull the pipe again and do an air test on the whole system.


 
Its the black pipe.  We used a torch to soften it so we could tighten the clamps more.


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## chrisasst (Nov 14, 2012)

HERE IS AN UPDATE:  
So frustrated.  My pump for weeks now have been kicking on/off every 7 seconds. It is eating my electric bill up like crazy.  I just don't know what to do next.  Since the pump is shutting off, I am guessing there must be a leak somewhere in the line going into the ground. If it was the foot valve/ check valve I don't think the pump would shut off.  
I don't even know who I could call to look at it. I can't get a submersible because they don't make them small enough for my pipe.  I called the major well company in my area last time, but they don't seem interested in looking at it because the system is so old,


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## ROVERT (Nov 14, 2012)

If it's kicking on and off every 7 seconds, it is likely that your tank is water logged. When you run water does the pump switch constantly click on and off?


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## chrisasst (Nov 14, 2012)

ROVERT said:


> If it's kicking on and off every 7 seconds, it is likely that your tank is water logged. When you run water does the pump switch constantly click on and off?


When I run water, the pump will constantly run until I turn the water off.  If I have too many things running water at once( shower, washing machine, sink faucet) I loose complete pressure.


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## coaly (Nov 14, 2012)

What pressure does the guage read when it shuts off?

What pressure does the gauge read when it turns on?

It should be set to turn on (cut in) something like 30 , and shut off (cut out) around 45 or so.

To check and set tank pressure, turn off pump, and run water until water stops. The reading on an air pressure gauge on the tire valve on the tank should be a pound or two *below* cut in pressure. This has to be correct before trouble shooting can be done. Once set to this pressure, turn on pump to check operation.


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## ROVERT (Nov 14, 2012)

coaly said:


> What pressure does the guage read when it shuts off?
> 
> What pressure does the gauge read when it turns on?
> 
> ...


 
20 on/40 off and 30 on/50 off are the most common pressure settings. These can be adjusted to just about anything you like within reason. If the pump comes on at 20 psi, your tank should have about 18 psi air pressure. If it comes on at 30 psi, you should have about 28 psi air pressure. This is especially important with a low water pressure switch. If the air pressure in the tank is higher than the cut in pressure, the tank (water side) can lose pressure too quickly before the pump comes on and the low water switch will shut off.


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## coaly (Nov 14, 2012)

Thanks for the correction, that makes a big difference.

It's hard to tell what it's doing without knowing any pressures.


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## chrisasst (Nov 14, 2012)

coaly said:


> What pressure does the guage read when it shuts off?
> 
> What pressure does the gauge read when it turns on?
> 
> ...


 
It is set to that exactly, 30 /45.  we tried 50, but it just wouldn't shut off at the time.
I don't have a pressure gauge on the holding tank. The spot that I could put one is so rusted that I get no reading.
Also, if I shut off the water between the pump and the holding tank, the pump still kicks on and off like it does. So it has to be on the well side correct..


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## Ehouse (Nov 14, 2012)

Maybe your well doesn't have a fast enough recovery rate to keep up with the pump. With only a 3' pipe, you don't have much of a reservoir and you could be drawing it down to the foot valve before it can shut off the pressure switch. Just a stab, but try lowering the foot valve in the well, or lowering the pressure setting. ?

Ehouse


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## ROVERT (Nov 15, 2012)

chrisasst said:


> Also, if I shut off the water between the pump and the holding tank, the pump still kicks on and off like it does. So it has to be on the well side correct..


 
Actually, that points to the tank. When you do that it takes away the air buffer completely. If it cycles exactly the same when you close the valve between the pump and the tank I would say it is definitely water logged as the presence of the tank is not making a difference. You may also have a small leak down the well or under ground, but I think your big issue is the tank.


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## chrisasst (Nov 15, 2012)

ok, makes some sense to me. Why would the system work for a week or two correctly after we pulled the pipe out of the well and put it back in? Would it be because all the water and air was completely gone and we filled it back up causing some air to go back in the holding tank and then it slowly escapes? Is my thinking correct? ( I am trying to google search "trouble shoot water holding tank")
but also I am thinking, where is the water going from the holding tank which is making the pump kick on/off so fast? 
Sorry, my know it all father in law usually has "fixed" this, which he obviously has not. I know how the well side of it works, just not the inside part works..


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## ROVERT (Nov 15, 2012)

Yes, you probably trapped enough air in the tank to make it function to some level. I imagine that it was still short cycling to some extent.

Because water is not compressible (or at least very nearly not compressible) it takes virtually no leak at all to cause a pump to short cycle. You might not have at leak at all. The only way you can maintain pressure in the system is by actively pumping, having head pressure, or compressing something. When the pump is running, the pump is providing the pressure. In a working system, the compressed air in the tank provides the pressure when the pump is not running. In a municipal water supply, head pressure pressure from a water tower provides the pressure.


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## coaly (Nov 15, 2012)

Perhaps the line is clogged going into the tank, since you commented it was so rusty? Therefore the tank isn't even being used? Maybe when you depressurized it, rust and scale opened up for awhile until it plugged again?

Like ROVERT explains, the air is like a baloon in the tank that pushes the water out. Not the pump. So from 45 or 50 lbs. it would be impossible to push out enough water to decrease the pressure down to your 30 psi cut in setting that fast. That's why I asked about pressures. If the cut in and cut out were set extremely close (differential) it could short cycle like you explain, so the pressure settings have to be know first.


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## homebrewz (Nov 15, 2012)

I had a similar problem with a shallow well jet pump running all of the time. The expansion tank was full of sediment. I cleaned it out, installed a new schrader valve, pumped the tank up to about 20 psi with an air compressor, and it worked fine after that.


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## chrisasst (Nov 15, 2012)

Ok, here is what I got for pressure in the holding tank. When the pump is idle, I get a reading of 20psi on my tire gauge. Then the pump kicks on it goes up to 35, then drops back down to 20. Also there is water coming out of the air pressure valve. Well, I probably didn't test this right. I didn't turn the pump off because I am afraid of loosing prime. So I guess these numbers are not accurate. When I close the valve between the pump and holding tank, the pump kicks on / off faster. which I think it should if everything on the well side is working properly correct?
So I am gathering from this info it is the holding tank then right?


I was going to get a picture/video of it but my wife took my good camera.


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## ROVERT (Nov 15, 2012)

If water comes out of the schrader valve, the tank is water logged. You can try to drain the tank and then use an air compressor to push the water out of the tank. Most tanks have a rubber diaphragm in them. When you get water out of the schrader it means that the diaphragm is ruptured. You might be able to push enough water out and get enough air in to make it work properly. It is a temporary fix, however, and a new tank is in your future. 

FWIW, you cannot check the tank pressure without relieving any pressure from the water side of the tank first. In your case, it doesn't matter because you now know the tank is water logged.


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## jeffoc (Nov 15, 2012)

I agree with Rovert, your tank is shot. Also the check valve should be as close to the pump as possible. Think of it like holding your finger over the end of a straw. This makes the pump work less as long as everything beyond it is working properly. By placing it so far down what you've done is basically install two foot valves.


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## Ehouse (Nov 15, 2012)

jeffoc said:


> I agree with Rovert, your tank is shot. Also the check valve should be as close to the pump as possible. Think of it like holding your finger over the end of a straw. This makes the pump work less as long as everything beyond it is working properly. By placing it so far down what you've done is basically install two foot valves.


 

One more thing, make sure the Shrader valve assembly is tight in the tank ( hex nut).  It's unclear if you said water leaking from the valve it's self (from the very tip top) or from around it.  That may make a difference, but I'm not sure how the valve assembly connects to the bladder.

Ehouse


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## chrisasst (Nov 15, 2012)

Ehouse said:


> One more thing, make sure the Shrader valve assembly is tight in the tank ( hex nut). It's unclear if you said water leaking from the valve it's self (from the very tip top) or from around it. That may make a difference, but I'm not sure how the valve assembly connects to the bladder.
> 
> Ehouse


 
Water comes out when I press the tire gauge onto it.


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## chrisasst (Nov 15, 2012)

oh boy... I just had a well company here. He said the pressure tank is probably water logged, but that wouldn't  make the pump kick on/off like it is. He said it is a leak in the ground or the foot valve again.  (banging head now)  He also said, they don't work on units like mine...........

IDK, from what you are saying and what I am reading on my research, I think 90% of the problem is coming from the holding tank. So I don't know if I can change it or not.. My fear is loosing prime and if there is a leak somewhere, not being able to get it re-primed.


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## jeffoc (Nov 15, 2012)

I'm not sure what kind of pump you have but on mine, I have a Red Jacket, when I had to replace the foot valve, I was able to prime it by opening an unused port and dumping water in from a gallon jug. Replace the plug before you turn it on, I learned the hard way. I had to do it a couple times before it caught, but I have about a 20 foot run and then a ~12 foot drop.
You have to hold the pressure switch open until it builds itself.
I don't know if that would make the pump cycle like that, but with all the work you've done after the pump, I would try just replacing the tank. You know it's bad.


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## chrisasst (Nov 15, 2012)

jeffoc said:


> I'm not sure what kind of pump you have but on mine, I have a Red Jacket, when I had to replace the foot valve, I was able to prime it by opening an unused port and dumping water in from a gallon jug. Replace the plug before you turn it on, I learned the hard way. I had to do it a couple times before it caught, but I have about a 20 foot run and then a ~12 foot drop.
> You have to hold the pressure switch open until it builds itself.
> I don't know if that would make the pump cycle like that, but with all the work you've done after the pump, I would try just replacing the tank. You know it's bad.


 
We usually shut the valve between the pump and holding tank. Then pull out the line and when we were ready to prime it, we opened the valve and even then we had to use the neighbors outside spicket and use the garden hose and run water in the well.


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## ROVERT (Nov 15, 2012)

chrisasst said:


> oh boy... I just had a well company here. He said the pressure tank is probably water logged, but that wouldn't make the pump kick on/off like it is. He said it is a leak in the ground or the foot valve again. (banging head now) He also said, they don't work on units like mine...........
> 
> IDK, from what you are saying and what I am reading on my research, I think 90% of the problem is coming from the holding tank. So I don't know if I can change it or not.. My fear is loosing prime and if there is a leak somewhere, not being able to get it re-primed.


 
Diagnosing these things over the web isn't the easiest, but typically when a pump short cycles with a water logged tank it does not mean there is a significant leak somewhere. Before freaking out about another leak, replace the tank and see where you are at. You said there is a valve between the tank and pump. If you are that concerned about losing prime, just close the valve and leave the pump on while you replace the tank, it's short cycling anyway, it will just continue to do so, maybe a little faster.

Once you get the new tank filled up, you might want to close the valve, turn the pump off and replace the pressure switch. If it has been short cycling for as long as you say it has the contacts are probably well on their way to being burnt out. It's been tough on the pump too, but there's no sense replacing that until it dies. As long as you have a tank full of pressurized water, priming the pump should be a cinch, even if there is a leak.


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## ROVERT (Nov 15, 2012)

chrisasst said:


> We usually shut the valve between the pump and holding tank. Then pull out the line and when we were ready to prime it, we opened the valve and even then we had to use the neighbors outside spicket and use the garden hose and run water in the well.


 
If the neighbors are that close, don't worry about losing prime. You can just get a double female hose connector and connect a hose from their house to the boiler drain at your pump/tank. If you don't have a boiler drain at your pump/tank, you should... put one in when you replace the tank.


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## chrisasst (Nov 15, 2012)

Soooo... I called my father in law to see what he thought.  He came down. He said that my holding tank does not have a bladder in it.  I told him my findings and of course he says it can't be the tank and has to be the foot valve again.  Well, told him that the tank was water logged because water is coming out of the air valve thing.  So anyway, he drained out most of the water from the tank. We put a air compressor on it,  put about 28 pounds of air in the tank.  Low and behold, the pump is off and holding.  Atleast for now..


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## ROVERT (Nov 15, 2012)

Does your system have an air volume control? Without one, your bladderless tank will require regular maintenance... ie adding air. Without anything separating the air from the water in the tank, the air dissolves in the water and disappears over time. An air volume control will add a little air every time the pump cycles. I can't tell you exactly how often you will need to drain the tank and add air. There aren't too many air over water tanks around here any more. The ones I can think of probably need to have air added every other year or so.

Glad you got it sorted out. I should have asked if you had a galvanized tank. I run into so few of them that I just assumed you would have a diaphragm tank. The tank you have will not have to be replaced until it leaks. It requires more maintenance, but doesn't have a diaphragm to go bad.


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## heat seeker (Nov 15, 2012)

I had a galvanized tank, and it finally started to leak. It was so loaded up with crud the well guy could hardly get it out of the house it was so heavy. He rolled it on end, like an oxygen tank, and it got away from him. When it hit the ground, it gave off a dull thud and broke. It was really rotten. I now have a bladder type, lifetime guarantee (but none on the labor).


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## MasterMech (Nov 16, 2012)

chrisasst said:


> Soooo... I called my father in law to see what he thought. He came down. He said that my holding tank does not have a bladder in it. I told him my findings and of course he says it can't be the tank and has to be the foot valve again. Well, told him that the tank was water logged because water is coming out of the air valve thing. So anyway, he drained out most of the water from the tank. We put a air compressor on it, put about 28 pounds of air in the tank. Low and behold, the pump is off and holding. Atleast for now..


 Try pouring a bit of soapy water on the schrader valve to see if that is leaking air.  Easy fix if that's leaking.


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## chrisasst (Nov 16, 2012)

Thanks guys for the help / suggestions.  

Far as I knew it was a bladder tank...its short, squatty, steel,  schrader valve on the side. 
no I don't see a air volume control, I guess that will be next on the list.


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## ROVERT (Nov 16, 2012)

chrisasst said:


> Thanks guys for the help / suggestions.
> 
> Far as I knew it was a bladder tank...its short, squatty, steel, schrader valve on the side.
> no I don't see a air volume control, I guess that will be next on the list.


 
I wouldn't bother with the air volume control. They're not the most reliable anyway. Just drain the tank and add air every now and then.


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## MasterMech (Nov 16, 2012)

chrisasst said:


> Thanks guys for the help / suggestions.
> 
> Far as I knew it was a bladder tank...its short, squatty, steel, schrader valve on the side.
> no I don't see a air volume control, I guess that will be next on the list.


I'd look at putting one or two bladder type expansion tanks on the line if I did anything with that old tank. Old air over water tank has already given you enough grief, no? Just sayin.


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## chrisasst (Nov 16, 2012)

MasterMech said:


> I'd look at putting one or two bladder type expansion tanks on the line if I did anything with that old tank. Old air over water tank has already given you enough grief, no? Just sayin.


 
I am just wondering if after 8 times of pulling up the well line and cleaning/changing the foot valve, that it has been this friging tank all along..


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## ROVERT (Nov 16, 2012)

chrisasst said:


> I am just wondering if after 8 times of pulling up the well line and cleaning/changing the foot valve, that it has been this friging tank all along..


 
Yep, I'm betting it was.


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## heat seeker (Nov 16, 2012)

+1


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## chrisasst (Nov 20, 2012)

MasterMech said:


> I'd look at putting one or two bladder type expansion tanks on the line if I did anything with that old tank. Old air over water tank has already given you enough grief, no? Just sayin.


 
Well, the pump is back kicking on/off again when there is no water open. Not as fast as it was, but probably getting there.  Can I hook up another tank off of the existing tank some how, or should I just the existing tank out and put in a new one? I don't know if a picture would help or not?


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## jeffoc (Nov 20, 2012)

That sucks.
I was hoping you had it this time. I'd take that old tank completely out, (beat it with the biggest hammer I could find, kick it, melt it down and then kick it again) for all the trouble it has given you it isn't worth messing with anymore. If you have a shut off valve between the tank and the pump it should hold prime if everything is solid below the pump.


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## heat seeker (Nov 20, 2012)

I think there's still a leak, it just takes longer for the pump to turn on because the tank is working properly now.


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## chrisasst (Nov 20, 2012)

jeffoc said:


> That sucks.
> I was hoping you had it this time. I'd take that old tank completely out, (beat it with the biggest hammer I could find, kick it, melt it down and then kick it again) for all the trouble it has given you it isn't worth messing with anymore. If you have a shut off valve between the tank and the pump it should hold prime if everything is solid below the pump.


 
well, it didn't loose prime the other night when we had it shut off, which I was shocked.
This tank just looks like a pain to be able to remove. All the piping looks rusty. I guess maybe a good torching will help.


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## ROVERT (Nov 20, 2012)

You should remove the old tank. If you don't, it will just leak down the road and you will be wishing you had removed it. Post some pics and we can give you an idea of how to proceed.


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## MasterMech (Nov 20, 2012)

Did you check the schrader valve for an air leak, that's an easy fix.  Beyond that, junk the tank.


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## chrisasst (Nov 21, 2012)

MasterMech said:


> Did you check the schrader valve for an air leak, that's an easy fix. Beyond that, junk the tank.


 
yes, no leak there.  Here are some pics for what its worth..


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## ROVERT (Nov 22, 2012)

I would take it apart at the union and replace the pipe from there to the tank. Put a valve in and a boiler drain just like it is now. I'd do it in plastic and brass.

If you're really worried about losing prime, you can try the following:






Close the valve and drain the tank first. Now cut (hacksaw or sawzall) at the red line. Un-thread the cut off nipple from the valve (blue arrow). 

Remove the old tank and install the new one. If you do it this way, assuming the piping going to the tank is 3/4", you'll need two 3/4" brass close nipples, a 3/4" brass union (FIP x FIP), a 3/4" brass tee, a 3/4" boiler drain, a 1" brass nipple, a 1" x 3/4" reduced coupling, and a 3/4" brass nipple. The 1" brass nipple, the reduced couple, and the 3/4" brass nipple, when put together, will have to be of suitable length to stick out from the new tank by a few inches when threaded in. Thread the tee onto that just like it is now. Boiler drain out one side, close nipple, union, close nipple into the valve out the other.


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