# Ducted heat pump or go with baseboard?



## drewmo (Feb 17, 2015)

Help! We might need to sell/rent the house very soon and need to get a central heating system in place.

*Quick facts:*
- 1920s colonial with a 1st floor addition and renovated attic into master bed circa 1980s. About 2,500 sf total.
- Original house (1st and 2nd floors) is ducted and is ~1,550 sf. Currently, there is no furnace connected to the ducts. It was condemned and has been removed. We rely 100% on wood and have been quite successful.
- Addition and master bed have baseboard hot water from a propane boiler. But, we rely on a pellet stove to heat the addition and what is now the kitchen and dining room (see drawings). The master bed benefits from the wood insert. We've only used the propane once this year to heat that space.
- My artwork is something to be desired, but I think you'll get the drift. The box around the first floor indicates which part of the house is ducted. The second floor is completely ducted and the Xs mark where the ducts are.
- Lots of doors allow us to regulate the temps. We close the doors to the dining room so that the pellet heats only the family room, kitchen and dining rooms. The wood insert takes care of the rest, but we do keep the unused rooms closed unless they are in use.

We need to figure out how to heat the ~1550 sf of space that is currently not supported by the boiler/baseboard. We can utilize the existing duct work and install a ducted heat pump, or we could add a zone or two to the propane boiler (wall mounted Penzotti). But this could go one of two ways ... 1. install baseboards or 2. connect to existing duct work.

I like connecting to the duct either with a heat pump or through the boiler because it eliminates the need to install baseboards, although heating efficiency might suffer some and could be the more expensive option. But, to be honest, I'm not sure how we could add baseboard to the kitchen, dining room and 2nd floor bath without some form of renovation. Wall-mounted radiators?
The rest of the rooms could be done pretty easily and the boiler shouldn't have a problem handling the extra load.

How should we approach this?


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## iamlucky13 (Feb 17, 2015)

What are your electric and propane costs? Normally a heat pump wins easily for efficiency, and you should only need to make one new wire run to the heat pump outdoor unit location, as opposed to numerous new plumbing runs for the baseboard boiler heat. If you've got high electric rates, however, the gap between the propane heating cost and the electric cost might not be enough to pay back the higher (I presume...I've never seen cost examples for adding baseboard water heating) cost of the heat pump.

Lacking more info, my inclination is to install a two stage or inverter driven heat pump (cost a little more than single stage heat pumpes, but are more efficient), and re-seal and re-insulate any ducts that are outside the insulated volume of the house so you get the most out of it.


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## Highbeam (Feb 18, 2015)

Selling means you need cheap and easy. Renting means you want dependable and effective to prevent complaints. Neither really considers operating costs because you won't be paying it.

In Maine, I would expand the hot water system.


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## drewmo (Feb 18, 2015)

Highbeam said:


> Selling means you need cheap and easy. Renting means you want dependable and effective to prevent complaints. Neither really considers operating costs because you won't be paying it.
> 
> In Maine, I would expand the hot water system.



I think you've hit it on the head here. I need cheap, easy, dependable and quick. I struggle, though, because I have a hard time thinking this house might not be ours. If it made sense, I'd put in the most efficient/affordable system as I could.

With that said, would a ducted heat pump into existing ducts be a good value in the long run? The ducts would need some sealing, but that could happen over time. If the house were mine....


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## Highbeam (Feb 18, 2015)

Boy do I wish the smart folks making these minisplit heat pumps that put out full rated output at 5 degrees would start selling heat pump boilers with the same technology. 

 I would have a hard time spending much money on ducted heat pumps in Maine. The technology just isn't there to heat in your cold climate. For now, primary heat has to come from burning fuel or resistance heat.


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## velvetfoot (Feb 19, 2015)

drewmo said:


> I have a hard time thinking this house might not be ours


Yes, that is something to get over.
Why not just put in a cheap propane furnace to replace the one that was condemned?


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## woodgeek (Feb 19, 2015)

Highbeam said:


> Boy do I wish the smart folks making these minisplit heat pumps that put out full rated output at 5 degrees would start selling heat pump boilers with the same technology.
> 
> I would have a hard time spending much money on ducted heat pumps in Maine. The technology just isn't there to heat in your cold climate. For now, primary heat has to come from burning fuel or resistance heat.



Since the distribution temps for a boiler need to be a ways above air temps, the COP hit would be huge for a HP 'boiler'.

Even as a HP fan, much colder than Boston, I think a standard HP could only provide a fraction of needed BTU on a seasonal basis...but if all I had was expensive fossils or baseboards as plan B (not gas), a ducted HP could be useful and save money when temps were above say 20°F outside.


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## iamlucky13 (Feb 19, 2015)

drewmo said:


> I think you've hit it on the head here. I need cheap, easy, dependable and quick. I struggle, though, because I have a hard time thinking this house might not be ours. If it made sense, I'd put in the most efficient/affordable system as I could.
> 
> With that said, would a ducted heat pump into existing ducts be a good value in the long run? The ducts would need some sealing, but that could happen over time. If the house were mine....



I guess we could talk back and forth about this, but unless you were planning on doing the work yourself, I think the thing to do is quotes on each system : propane furnace, ducted heat pump, and extending the baseboard boiler lines to the other rooms. I don't know enough about baseboard boilers to have an idea how much work that would be.

I suspect a propane furnace will be less expensive than extending the boiler lines. It will definitely be less than a heat pump.

Now on the other hand, some buyers may not like the cost of propane and really want a heat pump. Unfortunately, the premium they're willing to pay is often not enough to cover your cost of installing the heat pump.


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## Highbeam (Feb 19, 2015)

The heat pump won't do the job when it gets cold. This ain't western WA. So the only way the heat pump will prevent freeze damage is to include a backup electric resistance furnace. 

Remember that this is a rent/sell situation. A propane furnace using your old ducts is cheap and dependable. To hell with the increased cost of operation.


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## DBoon (Feb 21, 2015)

You already have a propane boiler - zone it for the unheated part of the house, and tie a hydronic coil into your existing ducted system.  That is the least expensive upgrade, and should be effective.  The next owners can do more, if they wish, but they won't pay you any premium for the house if you do more compared to doing the minimum.


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## BIGDADDY (Feb 22, 2015)

I have been a renter and now an owner of a few homes. I can tell you one big consideration I always had in either instance.What are the utilities going to cost me? 
I would not rent a place with electric base board heat. I know installing electric base board is cheap but after the install its nothing but expensive.If you want to increase potential interest  in renting or selling in the future I would stay away from the electric base board.


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## DBoon (Feb 27, 2015)

DBoon said:


> but they won't pay you any premium for the house if you do more compared to doing the minimum.


I agree with BIGDADDY.  I wasn't even thinking of electric baseboard heat as an option - that would never cross my mind.  And if I saw a house with that in it, I would immediately deduct from the asked for selling price the cost of a "real" heating system upgrade.


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