# Power Outage Questions



## Jlinz911 (Nov 26, 2018)

Just got done with 3 days with no power...Crazy....But our Hearthstone Clydesdale kept us going downstairs...thankfully it wasn't too cold out or wed have been in some trouble and been scrambling...

I am in the process of getting a generator setup together for my house in case a similar situation happens again...I just need to run furnace, lights, and freezers mostly, but would also like to make sure to get a circuit setup to the fireplace insert since I can keep it going and it doesn't pull the juice the furnace does...until then i have a couple questions....

Can I put a heat powered fan on top of the unit?  While it does have the blower fan, with no power most of the heat just radiated up the front wall of my mantle.  It was able to keep the room warm, but there was no circulation and i was worried about the stove getting too hot with no air moving away or around how it is designed to.  

If I can do that which fan is suitable to provide some circulation?  The unit does stick out and there are plenty of places where these surface reaches 300-500 degrees.  I know ideally a stand alone stove is better for radiant heat, but we really didnt have much of an option and I really like the Clydesdale...


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## Bad LP (Nov 26, 2018)

Why are you not planning on powering the insert fan?

My insert is on the generator panel but if I didn't have a whole house generator the insert would be on the transfer switch.


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## kennyp2339 (Nov 26, 2018)

The UL listing is achieved with no fan running.


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## Bushels20 (Nov 26, 2018)

The eco fans and other brands are designed to pull air from behind the stove and push it outward/forward.

I have an eco fan on my insert running 24/7 and it’s cool, but almost pointless. Reason being, the decorative surround around the insert keeps the fan from drawing any meaningful air from behind.

I knew this was likely going to be the case when i put the Eco Fan on the insert, but it was given to me and it is cool that it is heat powered. So there it sits.

Save your money would be my advice. Put the extra $115 towards a better generator.


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## begreen (Nov 26, 2018)

A couple of the TEG fans will provide some circulation, but nothing near like the built-in blower which is convecting air around the firebox. The fireplace fan draw is trivial. Just have that circuit wired to be powered by the generator. While you are at it, add kitchen lights and maybe the tv. That can go a long way toward making the family happier during a long outage.


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## velvetfoot (Nov 28, 2018)

We had a short power outage the other night.  I'm usually  too lazy to connect even the little honda eu2000i, but I did.  I must say, it made life more pleasant.  Still wouldn't power the well pump, of course, but we had lights, refrigerator, stove fan, tv, dvr, etc.   

I think I could've run the oil boiler too, but would've had to watch that oil burner motor and reefer motors didn't start at same time, for motor current draw.  The oil boiler runs a long time to charge the 200 gal tank, but it's not start/stopping creating intermittent high load draws, and the ECM motors on the circulators take like 10 watts each.  All my lighting is LED, so at leastyou get some bang for your buck in a power outage-you can light your house up like a Christmas tree, lol.  I think the resistance ignitor for the pellet boiler consumes too much power...maybe if nothing else was on.

I plugged a kill-a-watt meter into the output of the generator so I could check (steady state) power draw.    As I noted, when the reefer started up, the generator sagged (noise) but held.

I just plug the little genny with an adapter I made up into the big input plug on the house for the bigger genny.  It's 125 v. powers both legs...haven't had a problem.  

The generator output line is tied in to the breaker box with a SquareD (make of panel) interlock.  It works well.  I just turn off the 240 and other large consumer breakers and be careful what I turn on.

I also have a whole house power monitor, a TED 1000 I believe, that has two sets of current transformers:  one on the mains and the other on the genny input lines.  Thing is, it doesn't read power right with 125volts.  It's around a half, but that didn't calculate out right.  There's probably a formula that I should know.  So, for a good reading, I have to go outside an look at the kill-a-watt.  Perhaps a subject for another thread.

I did see where some portable generator came with bluetooth.  Now that could be handy, as long as you keep your cell phone charged up, lol.

With having two short (4 hour) outages in the last two weeks, my wife mentioned in passing a standby generator.  I like gadgets, not getting younger, so it's tempting.  I'd need a propane tank too.  Have one estimator coming out next week.  Slippery, expensive slope.  Plus, it has to be maintained.  Not sure it's worth it, but it'd make thing easier on my wife if I wasn't here (out of town...not that other thing), lol.  Like other home improvements in our experience, why wait to do it...you'll just have less time to enjoy them, and you can't take it with you.   See, I'm talking myself into it already.


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## Jlinz911 (Nov 28, 2018)

Do you have any issue of backfeeding with that type of system?...

I have been considering doing like a stand alone panel that is used just for AUX power from the Generator in case the power goes down again...They sell a 6 circuit kit for like $250 and you run the line outside and have a 30amp plug that you plug your generator into...

Most of the Gen sets I'm considering are 6000-9000 startup KW with 4000-7500 running KW....most of these have the 30amp 120volt outlets for plugging in...anything would have been better than nothing...

Looking to power 2 freezers and 1 fridge mainly...lights in my house are all LED so that's little issue there...Blower motor on my furnace i have not yet looked at for KW starting, and the Clydesdale is around 50KW from what I have researched...anything beyond that with TV/Internet would be a bonus during an outage...


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## begreen (Nov 28, 2018)

The first step before tying in a generator is an absolute break from the grid. Either plugin devices via extension cords or if wired into the panel be sure a generator interlock breaker is installed. 

Note, the power ratings you are mentioning are in watts, W, not Kilowatts KW. A 50KW Clydesdale would warm the entire neighborhood.


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## velvetfoot (Nov 28, 2018)

No backfeeding issues.   It is an interlock designed by the panel mfr for this.  Big plus is that you're not relegated to 6 circuits.

I think if you're thinking of that size generator you might as well get one that also has a 240 volt output as well.  That would tie into your house better.

You're not talking KW, lol, more like Watts.

Electronic things and motors run better with well regulated power like the inverter gens.  I had a 1000 watt harbor freight genny that I still have a soft spot in my heart, but it would make the stove motor make funny noises.  Same with the oil burner.  I'm not sure about my high power genny, because it's been so long, lol, but I don't think there was a problem with that.   That might be something you'll run into if you're powering something that might be sensitive, with electronics, like your furnace.

6 circuits don't go that far.  I've got several breakers just for lights, and then there are the outlets.


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## firefighterjake (Nov 28, 2018)

Jlinz911 said:


> Do you have any issue of backfeeding with that type of system?...
> 
> I have been considering doing like a stand alone panel that is used just for AUX power from the Generator in case the power goes down again...They sell a 6 circuit kit for like $250 and you run the line outside and have a 30amp plug that you plug your generator into...
> 
> ...


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## velvetfoot (Nov 28, 2018)

Well pump?  Lucky you.  I need more,  but it's down 400'.  My big gen is 7550 steady and 13500 startup.


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## jetsam (Nov 28, 2018)

An interlock is far cheaper and simpler than a transfer panel, and feeds the whole house.

When I moved houses I took the portable generator with me, sold the transfer panel, and bought a double 30 breaker and an interlock kit for about $40.

You need to be careful not to overload your generator, but you can manage that with the house's circuit breakers if you have people who are likely to go around turning random stuff on.

It is so simple to set up compared to wiring the transfer panel. You backfeed the panel via a double breaker sized to your generator. That breaker goes in the panel right next to the main breaker.   A sliding metal plate blocks both from being on at once so you can't backfeed the transmission lines.

I miss the ammeters on the transfer panel, but I like having the whole house hot. I just shut down the breaker for the electric dryer and tell my wife that she can operate normally, as my generator is way bigger than we need.

It is suggested to balance your breakers a bit while you are making room for the feed breaker (put the refrigerator on the opposite leg from the dishwasher, etc).


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## Chas0218 (Nov 28, 2018)

They also make a plate that goes between your meter and meter connection that allows you to plug in your generator. See link below.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/GenerLink-30-Amp-Meter-Mounted-Transfer-Switch-MA23-N/301961623


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## maple1 (Nov 28, 2018)

What kind of furnace are you talking about?

From what you are posting, and depending on how much the power goes out, I would be tempted to just get a 2000 or 3000 watt inverter generator & run a couple extension cords.

Gas consumption is my main consideration in an extended power outage. If you don't need to start a well pump, that should be all the watts you need. I used to have a 7000 watt Craftsman genny. It was a nice genny but it would suck down a 5 gallon jug of gas in what seemed like no time, while I was using only 1/4 of its potential. I now have a 3000w inverter. And I can run our well pump (a 120v, not a deep well) off it if needed.

IMO most people look right past gas consumption and into big shiney watts. Like I did once. Which can be a mistake.


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## kennyp2339 (Nov 28, 2018)

Chas0218 said:


> They also make a plate that goes between your meter and meter connection that allows you to plug in your generator. See link below.
> 
> https://www.homedepot.com/p/GenerLink-30-Amp-Meter-Mounted-Transfer-Switch-MA23-N/301961623


Before installing any products on your meter pan or line side of the meter, check with your local utility to see if its approved, you don't want one of there workers getting hurt when servicing the meter or be accused of tampering / unsafe condition.


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## maple1 (Nov 28, 2018)

A licensed electrician is needed for that here, and he needs to pull the power company for a disconnect then a reconnect. So a hassle, and with fees needing to be paid to the power company.


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## jatoxico (Nov 28, 2018)

Like @maple1 I abandoned my large gen-set in favor of an inverter generator. But for those currently or thinking of back feeding using such a setup realize that (please bear w/ me not an electrician) both poles will be in phase. This will be unsafe if your home is wired w/ any multi wired branched circuits. This type of wiring uses 2 hots out that are out of phase (when using power from the pole) w/ a common neutral. If the hot wires are powered up in phase with the generator then you can overload your neutral. This is why you will not see an adaptor plug made for your Honda eu2000i and similar units to back feed a home transfer switch.


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## jetsam (Nov 28, 2018)

maple1 said:


> What kind of furnace are you talking about?
> 
> From what you are posting, and depending on how much the power goes out, I would be tempted to just get a 2000 or 3000 watt inverter generator & run a couple extension cords.
> 
> ...



I converted my old gas guzzler to propane and tied it into the house's big tank via a ball valve and a quick connect.  It downrates the unit somewhat, but you never have to worry about putting gas in, taking gas out, wondering how old the gas is, etc etc.  Propane burns nice and clean and does not gunk up the carb!

That generator used to be cranky about starting every 6 months with gas. Now I start it once a year and it fires right up.

If you are running hvac equipment, consult the manufacturer before making a generator buying/upgrading decision. Some newer stuff is going to require an inverter generator.



jatoxico said:


> But for those currently or thinking of back feeding using such a setup realize that (please bear w/ me not an electrician) both poles will be in phase.



You can run the whole house off of 2 inverter generators and an interlock, but you need 2 inverter generators from the same company that are designed to work with each other in parallel mode.  Honda calls it "companion mode" I think.


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## Highbeam (Nov 28, 2018)

Only one Honda inverter genset makes 240 as far as I know and it is very expensive. You pretty much need to choose inverter or 240.

I use a smaller 3000 watt inverter genset to backfeed my home main panel through the interlock. Works great for all 120 volt loads. Every stupid light  in the bathroom, Xmas lights, refrigerators, etc. and power even goes on through the sub panel to my detached shop.

I do not recommend the transfer panels. Just get an interlock and a small inverter genset unless you require 240.


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## maple1 (Nov 28, 2018)

Highbeam said:


> Only one Honda inverter genset makes 240 as far as I know and it is very expensive. You pretty much need to choose inverter or 240.
> 
> I use a smaller 3000 watt inverter genset to backfeed my home main panel through the interlock. Works great for all 120 volt loads. Every stupid light  in the bathroom, Xmas lights, refrigerators, etc. and power even goes on through the sub panel to my detached shop.
> 
> I do not recommend the transfer panels. Just get an interlock and a small inverter genset unless you require 240.



Can you dummy down how you do that exactly? For, well, electrical dummies like me.


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## jatoxico (Nov 28, 2018)

jetsam said:


> You can run the whole house off of 2 inverter generators and an interlock, but you need 2 inverter generators from the same company that are designed to work with each other in parallel mode. Honda calls it "companion mode" I think.



I'm 99.9 that although you get more power, the units will be in phase jet. Otherwise you could pair them and run 240. If your doing it (like me) give your panel a check for these circuits. I had a couple and the solution is to avoid them if possible or only use one of the breakers on the MWBC at a time.

For clarity with an MWBC on pole power you could safely pull 10 amps on each hot at the same time and the neutral only has the possibility of seeing 10 amps because the hots are not in phase however…back feeding a 120 V through a transfer switch or block plate the neutral could see all 20 amps and possibly overload and neither breaker would pop so bad situation.


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## Highbeam (Nov 28, 2018)

maple1 said:


> Can you dummy down how you do that exactly? For, well, electrical dummies like me.



I know that I do not have any multi wire branch circuits and I know that my 120 volt inverter genset can not overload the single returning neutral wire on my "generator" circuit. I do not want to provide too much information on the forum for fear that an electrical "dummy" might not be able to make these checks. You have to make a very simple adapter or a simple modification to a current cord. Many people online have detailed feeding both sides of their panel with a 120 volt generator to include showing how to make the adapter. I know you're smart Maple1, it's the endless others that could read this.



jatoxico said:


> For clarity with an MWBC on pole power you could safely pull 10 amps on each hot at the same time and the neutral only has the possibility of seeing 10 amps because the hots are not in phase however…back feeding a 120 V through a transfer switch or block plate the neutral could see all 20 amps and possibly overload and neither breaker would pop so bad situation.



There's even another risk with applying 120 to both sides of your panel. Your generator circuit is fed by a four wire cable. Two hots, a neutral (same size as the hots), and a safety ground. The generator inlet breaker is sized assuming that each of the hots is fully loaded. When you put both of those hots in "phase" then the sum of the current is passing back to the genset on the neutral wire. In other words, the neutral can see double what each of the hots is protected at and might be overloaded. In my case, the 10 gauge neutral can handle all 3000 watts that my genset can put out so I'm safe.


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## jatoxico (Nov 28, 2018)

Highbeam said:


> There's even another risk with applying 120 to both sides of your panel. Your generator circuit is fed by a four wire cable. Two hots, a neutral (same size as the hots), and a safety ground. The generator inlet breaker is sized assuming that each of the hots is fully loaded. When you put both of those hots in "phase" then the sum of the current is passing back to the genset on the neutral wire. In other words, the neutral can see double what each of the hots is protected at and might be overloaded. In my case, the 10 gauge neutral can handle all 3000 watts that my genset can put out so I'm safe.



Good point. I also made up a 10 g cord and my unit only puts out about 20 amp max. If the cord fries maybe I take out the cord, unit or both. If a wire hidden in the walls becomes damaged that's a whole 'nother problem which is why I bring it up.


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## jetsam (Nov 28, 2018)

jatoxico said:


> I'm 99.9 that although you get more power, the units will be in phase jet. Otherwise you could pair them and run 240. If your doing it (like me) give your panel a check for these circuits. I had a couple and the solution is to avoid them if possible or only use one of the breakers on the MWBC at a time.
> 
> For clarity with an MWBC on pole power you could safely pull 10 amps on each hot at the same time and the neutral only has the possibility of seeing 10 amps because the hots are not in phase however…back feeding a 120 V through a transfer switch or block plate the neutral could see all 20 amps and possibly overload and neither breaker would pop so bad situation.



I assumed the parallel kit was so the inverters could get 180° from each other, but a little research shows that most of them seem to use it to get in phase.

Seems backwards to me!

Guess I'm sticking with my big old generac.


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## maple1 (Nov 28, 2018)

Ya, I think I have some MWBCs.


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## jatoxico (Nov 28, 2018)

maple1 said:


> Ya, I think I have some MWBCs.



The correct way to wire these is with double pole breaker so that they are tripped together. Mine were not so not immediately obvious and had to visually inspect and trace the wires coming into the panel.

I was fortunate I figured the issue out. As I said I'm no electrician.


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## maple1 (Nov 28, 2018)

We have some split plugs over the kitchen counter that I'm sure are done like that.

So I guess that rules out lighting up both sides of my panel with my 120 genny.

Then there's the issue, that I think Interlocks are against code up here. I think.


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## jatoxico (Nov 28, 2018)

maple1 said:


> We have some split plugs over the kitchen counter that I'm sure are done like that.
> 
> So I guess that rules out lighting up both sides of my panel with my 120 genny.
> 
> Then there's the issue, that I think Interlocks are against code up here. I think.



Kitchen circuits are a common place to find shared neutral circuits. Transfer switch should be legal. I used a transfer switch which is, as some say limiting. On the other hand it also limits the mistakes you can make!  Supposed to be that much safer too.

When rewiring transfer switch for use with the 120 inverter I eliminated one MWBC circuit off the switch altogether so it cannot be used. Another one is wired to only have one hot on at a time so it can be used safely. With 6 circuits I can run the fridge, plenty of lighting, make coffee, have hot water use a small microwave, watch tv and run insert and ceiling fans.


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## Chas0218 (Nov 29, 2018)

maple1 said:


> What kind of furnace are you talking about?
> 
> From what you are posting, and depending on how much the power goes out, I would be tempted to just get a 2000 or 3000 watt inverter generator & run a couple extension cords.
> 
> ...


This is huge, many don't factor in the right size of the generator for their needs. 

I would sit down and figure out what you need total wattage wise and buy 1000 watts bigger. Lights aren't a major concern for those that buy a generator it is the ability to have water, heat, and keep food cold.


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## peakbagger (Nov 29, 2018)

IMHO, there are wants and there are needs, make sure you figure that out. A generator especially a fixed speed unit is going to be most efficient at close to full throttle and far less efficient at lower loads. Diesels actually can get damaged when they are idled for long periods with no load.  The Inverter generators definitely are more efficient at lower loads than a fixed speed but even they will be less efficient at lower loads. Therefore size the generator for the actual loads you need in power outage. Permanent Installed standby generators are currently popular as Generac is running their doom and gloom infomercials. Electrical firms love them as its easy work and they usually pick up extras to fix other problems. They generally oversize them for all the house loads. A freezer or fridge do not need to be plugged in 24/7 and even a well only draws power when someone is using the water. If the owner is going to have to get fuel and keep filling the generators there is lot to be said for going for smaller unit that can handle critical loads if they are managed. With the exception of 220 volt loads many folks survive quite well with a 5000 Watt generator. If the well is modern one with variable speed drive or an older one switched over to a variable speed drive, the startup surge is close to nonexistent and an oversized generator isn't needed.

The only exception is if the generator is permanently piped to a natural gas line so that fuel management isn't an issue. Even if the unit sucks down lot of natural gas, it will be several weeks before the bill arrives (unless you live in Lawrence MA  )


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## velvetfoot (Nov 29, 2018)

The well pump is the big driver for me.  I'd definitely replace the current submersible pump with a variable speed if the current one crapped out.  I can't see pre-emptively replacing it, though?  It's about 15 years old.  How long do they typically last?

With the well, if I knew something was coming I'd fill the bathtubs and some containers.  Running the large genny periodically, the tubs and containers could be refilled at that time.

I have to say, having the ability to turn on any of the lights in the last outage was nice.  Rather than carrying oil lamps all over the place.  Has to be safer.  So, while not a necessity, quite nice.  Of course maybe you don't want to draw attention to yourself-another reason for a quiet little generator as well.  

Again though, have to take account of inrush current draw on motor loads.  Not trivial.


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## peakbagger (Nov 29, 2018)

If you want to, you can convert your existing pump if it has an external capacitor box with one of these 

http://store.waterpumpsupply.com/frmovaspcopr.html

If the capacitor is in the well then you need to wait until you replace it.


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## Hullspeed (Nov 29, 2018)

Just wanted to mention the Honda EU2000i generator is awesome.  One-arm portable, quiet, and *very* efficient - it's a great way to power 120 loads (using drop cords) for an extended period of time.  I usually use it car camping to make coffee and run a toaster oven.  Continuous 1600 watts / 2000 peak - it would run a refrigerator and a stove fan simultaneously with drop cords.  Yamaha also makes a similar model (EF2000ISV2) that is equally great and a tiny bit cheaper.  They use an inverter for constant true sine frequency and the engine RPMs drop under low load conditions to reduce noise and gas consumption.  They will start a very very small window AC, but anything larger and it cannot handle the starting currents and will shut down the inverter for self protection.


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## Highbeam (Nov 29, 2018)

Hullspeed said:


> Just wanted to mention the Honda EU2000i generator is awesome.  One-arm portable, quiet, and *very* efficient - it's a great way to power 120 loads (using drop cords) for an extended period of time.  I usually use it car camping to make coffee and run a toaster oven.  Continuous 1600 watts / 2000 peak - it would run a refrigerator and a stove fan simultaneously with drop cords.  Yamaha also makes a similar model (EF2000ISV2) that is equally great and a tiny bit cheaper.  They use an inverter for constant true sine frequency and the engine RPMs drop under low load conditions to reduce noise and gas consumption.  They will start a very very small window AC, but anything larger and it cannot handle the starting currents and will shut down the inverter for self protection.



The Honda 2000 has been superseded. Now it's a 2200! Pioneer inverter genset.

https://powerequipment.honda.com/generators/models/eu2200i


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## CaptSpiff (Nov 29, 2018)

maple1 said:


> Ya, I think I have some MWBCs.



I'm glad jatoxico brought this up because I think many home owners have this and don't even know.

My house had a 16x24' living room addition added in 1974 (way before I owned it). The electrician ran a single 12-3 from the panel to the 240v in-wall Air Conditioner outlet, then spilt that into two 120v runs (one an outlet run and the other a switched lighting run).

I've also seen this on a few homemade Garage runs. Most were safe and legal, but one had 10-3 to two 240v equipment outlets, then into two 120v runs using 14-2, protected by a 30 amp ganged breaker. Bad juju.

It's carzy out there, don't add to it by jumpering your 120 inverter genny to both legs!


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## maple1 (Nov 29, 2018)

CaptSpiff said:


> I'm glad jatoxico brought this up because I think many home owners have this and don't even know.
> 
> My house had a 16x24' living room addition added in 1974 (way before I owned it). The electrician ran a single 12-3 from the panel to the 240v in-wall Air Conditioner outlet, then spilt that into two 120v runs (one an outlet run and the other a switched lighting run).
> 
> ...



But if you have them you could still use a 240v genny and feed to a 240v breaker with interlock?


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## CaptSpiff (Nov 29, 2018)

maple1 said:


> But if you have them you could still use a 240v genny and feed to a 240v breaker with interlock?



Yup, absolutely, that works fine.


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## maple1 (Nov 29, 2018)

I'm re-thinking my genny situation. We lost power at 9am this morning, still out. 4th time this month. Last few winters it's only been once or twice. I need to at least get a cover made for it and get it parked on our verandah for the winter. Dragging it out each outage is getting real old real fast here.


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## CaptSpiff (Nov 29, 2018)

Hey Maple1, how bout building a little doghouse for the genny like this lady did in this YouTube vid:



At the end she starts it and the sound reduction is amazing.

Careful not to fall in love,... who knew girls could change oil ????


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## velvetfoot (Nov 29, 2018)

What, no code violations cited?


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## CaptSpiff (Nov 29, 2018)

velvetfoot said:


> What, no code violations cited?



What,... about changing oil?


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## velvetfoot (Nov 29, 2018)

There are wires flying all over the place.


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## CaptSpiff (Nov 29, 2018)

velvetfoot said:


> There are wires flying all over the place.



True. But I'm actually more concerned about the battery charging taking place inside the Tiny House (is it a fancy trailer?) without any noticeable venting. But hey,... I don't want to be called a Safety Sally. 
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Looking left: Did anyone else notice the lack of hand rails on the entrance platform? It's two steps,... right? 
Looking right: Shut-up,... they'll call you a Safety Sally !!
Looking left: No, No,... the people on this forum are very reasonable.


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## maple1 (Nov 30, 2018)

CaptSpiff said:


> Hey Maple1, how bout building a little doghouse for the genny like this lady did in this YouTube vid:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




No falling danger here, lol.

Ya, something like that. Would just likely be a box I would lift off to fill up & start. Given if I do it it will be thrown together in a hurry with what I can scrounge up. Hardest part will be getting it up on the verandah - it's kinda heavy, not sure wifey is up to that, might have to find some help. Or wait till the kids get home next month. Should also likely get a rubber pad for it to sit on, since it is right on the other side of the wall from living room where the TV is.

Power came back on 2am. This has been the worst month ever for this stiff in the 22 years we've been here. At least we have a genny, I just need to get it sorted better.


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## jatoxico (Nov 30, 2018)

She has a pretty slick setup. Admittedly I don't have much knowledge or experience with household battery back-up set ups so I don't have any comments about the safety but yeah, what a woman! Fueling up, changing oil?;  these are foreign concepts to my lovely wife.


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## maple1 (Nov 30, 2018)

jatoxico said:


> She has a pretty slick setup. Admittedly I don't have much knowledge or experience with household battery back-up set ups so I don't have any comments about the safety but yeah, what a woman! Fueling up, changing oil?;  these are foreign concepts to my lovely wife.



Likewise.


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## velvetfoot (Nov 30, 2018)

I was at Home Depot the other day, and they had what looked like a standby generator sitting there in the store.  I lift the lid, and it's empty!  Anyway, you'd think that'd be ideal.  Find an empty box.  Not sure if there'd be cooling fans involved, etc.

Electric start would probably be required for my wife. 

The Honda eu2000i took a lot of pulls to start the other day.  It was stored without gasoline.  It has a diaphragm fuel pump.  I saw a video yesterday where the guy did several long slow pulls of the cord with the choke on, before actually trying to start it.  He claimed that helped prime it.  I've tried it several times after letting the fuel run out.  It seems to work.  Video link below. 



I might put in a separate kill switch to allow unit to run dry without removing fuel from tank.  As is there is just one switch that turns off fuel and ignition.  Video link below:



If you were thinking you might use it sooner rather than later, and don't want to siphon the fuel from the tank and let it run dry, this might do the trick, and help with preventing carb gum up.  Not sure how long that phenomenon takes.


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## velvetfoot (Nov 30, 2018)

Just did the kill switch mod.  Easy.


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## jatoxico (Nov 30, 2018)

I bought the Champion 2000W. I like that is has a fuel shut off valve for short term storage and a float bowl drain for longer term storage. The float drain has tubing that directs draining gas out the bottom of the unit. Bit of oil in the spark plug hole and done.

It's a nice feature since simply running gas engines with a float bowl until they stop leaves a lot of gas in the bowl that can dry and gum up.


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## Highbeam (Nov 30, 2018)

This thread reminded me and I just went out and ran my champion inverter 2800 for 30 minutes with a 50% load. Now I’m ready for winter storms. This same genset is my summertime rv air conditioning power source too. I’ve had it for a few years now and it is always stored full of fuel but I shut the gas off and let it suck the bowl down. Starts first pull on old gasoline very well.

The whole gumming up of carburetors has not been my experience unless you’re talking years of nonuse. 

No need to drain the bowl in my experience. Once the bowl is sucked low enough that the jets only suck air then you know those jets don’t have gas on them. No gas, no deposits. 

Plus I cheat a little and all of my gas cans get sta-bil all year. Stabil says 1 or 2 years.


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## velvetfoot (Nov 30, 2018)

I spoke to the well man yesterday.   Might be a couple grand or more for constant pressure, variable speed pump.  He told me he tells customers that submersible well pumps last fifteen to twenty years.  Mine's sixteen.  Guess could consider a pre-emptive replacement in summer.  Downsides used to be power quality issues-Grundfos also uses power line comms.  Not sure of reliability.


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## jatoxico (Dec 1, 2018)

Highbeam said:


> No need to drain the bowl in my experience. Once the bowl is sucked low enough that the jets only suck air then you know those jets don’t have gas on them. No gas, no deposits.



I use Stabil pretty religiously too. Sometimes you think you're going to get back to or need something and it doesn't happen so I use it no matter what. Add at the gas station and definitely seems to save a lot headaches but...

I've pulled a number of float bowls and found dried the crystally sometimes flaky dried residue and even rust. Stabil doesn't prevent evaporation and any residue left behind. If that happens enough times it can end up getting in the jets and other small passages or cause the bowl or needle to hang up and fill you oil with gas. This is why some argue it's actually better not to run the carb dry and to leave the tank and carb full when gas has been Stabilized.

Personally, if I'm putting a piece of equipment to bed for the season I run it out of fuel and if there's no float drain I'll choke and continue to try and start. Electric start is handy for this but either way I'm sometimes surprised how long the motor will run again after it has been "run dry".

My push mower (Briggs), snow blower (Tecumseh HS80), Coleman genset and the Champion all have drains so I use 'em. Whole other procedure for the 2 stroke stuff.


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## velvetfoot (Dec 1, 2018)

High test at one local convenience store chain is ethanol free.


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## jatoxico (Dec 1, 2018)

velvetfoot said:


> High test at one local convenience store chain is ethanol free.



If it was available here I'd use it but the ethanol gas doesn't give me too much trouble. The subsidy, politics and effectiveness of the program I'm not so sure about.


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