# Wiring a new outlet (new to old style)



## Jay H (Jan 28, 2009)

For sanity sakes, I want to make sure I did this right. Last night I wired a new basic 15A outlet to my dining room which must of been an addition to the house, many years before I lived there. For some reason, there is only 1 outlet in the entire room so I wanted to add another one that was easily accessible via the shared wall it shares with my living room.   A lot of my electrical is old BX style with the metal sheath that is also used as ground.  As such, the junction box is metal and has a metal plate and screw that is used to compress the BX shield (as ground) to the metal junction box so the entire box is grounded.  At least it tests fine with my basic simple electrical tester.   

I have some new Romex style 14/2 + ground and a new plastic junction box and 2 new outlets that I used. One to replace the old existing outlet (might as well) and 1 for the new outlet I've installed.    I hooked up hot to hot and white to white as you'd think and I hooked up the ground wire from the ground tab on the new outlet (green screw) and just hooked that to the metal plate that screws the entire BX cable to the metal box as that is the existing ground.  I tested the new outlet and it shows up fine on my circuit tester and everything works but just want to make sure this was the right way to do this? I don't need to connect the *old existing* outlet's ground tab to the metal box too do I?  Just want to do things right...

Jay


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## Jay H (Jan 28, 2009)

OK, that makes electrical sense and it's not hard for me to get in there and wire the old outlet ground to the metal box...

Jay


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## jdemaris (Jan 28, 2009)

Jay H said:
			
		

> For sanity sakes, I want to make sure I did this right. Last night I wired a new basic 15A outlet to my dining room which must of been an addition to the house, many years before I lived there.
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> I have some new Romex style 14/2 + ground and a new plastic junction box and 2 new outlets that I used.



There is a difference between what is basically safe, what prevents voltage drop to excess, and what is allowed under code by an inspector.

By code as used in most areas - the new outlet is not required to have a ground wire attached to the ground screw ONLY if it fastens directly to the metal box.  If it sits away from the box on it's "plaster ears" on the finished wall - it IS required to have the ground wire attached.

I'd be more concerned about wire-sizes.  You mentioned having armoured cable, but what size wire gauge and what size fuse or breaker protects it?   14 gauge wire is rarely used in circuits other than for lighting due to the severe voltage drop.  If your original armoured cable is 12 gauge - you should NEVER attach a 14 gauge wire to extend it.  If it IS 14 gauge all the way, then I assume it is on a 15 amp breaker or fuse.  That is rarely done anymore.    The amp-rating on the actual plugs you put in are usually 15 amps for the plugs themselves but 20 amps for pass-through.  Most household circuits for duplex outlets are 20 amps protected and 15 amps at each set of plugs.   Some places also require a few 20 amp rated plugs that have the alternative slots in them (horzontal and vertical).

I'm not trying to confuse the issue.  Just mentioned since you did not mention the BX wire gauge.  Never mix wire sizes.     Wire size for saftey reasons matches fuse/breaker to wire size.  Wire size for voltage -drop reasons is different.


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## Jay H (Jan 28, 2009)

This is basic indoor 15A circuit. I didn't measure but a layman's eye, it looked like the same gauge wire.  

I wired a 20Amp circuit for outdoor yard tools before and used 12gauge about a year ago but this is your standard indoor circuit. 

Jay


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## markpee (Jan 28, 2009)

Your post caught my eye - be sure that the circuit breaker connected to this new outlet is no greater than 15amp.  Generally, household electrical outlets are required to be 20A - although years ago things were different.  If you have a 20A or greater breaker, simply change the breaker to a 15A and you'll be fine.


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## Jay H (Jan 28, 2009)

these are 15amp "pushmatic" type breakers. Yeah, it's an older circuit panel....

Jay


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## kenny chaos (Jan 29, 2009)

You're good!


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## seige101 (Jan 29, 2009)

jdemaris said:
			
		

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Mostly accurate statement, however the receptacle must be the self grounding type. here is a pic of one http://www.mikeholt.com/onlinetraining/page_images/1113923850_10.jpg

Personally i always run a jumper wire between the outlet and the box, in situations likes your Jay.



			
				markpee said:
			
		

> Your post caught my eye - be sure that the circuit breaker connected to this new outlet is no greater than 15amp.  Generally, household electrical outlets are required to be 20A - although years ago things were different.  If you have a 20A or greater breaker, simply change the breaker to a 15A and you'll be fine.



The only required circuits that must be 20 amps are, the 2 for kitchen, 1 for dining (can be shared with kitchen)bathroom, washer and possibly the garage.

Everything else can be 15 amp lightning and general purpose outlets (bedrooms, studys, hallways, living rooms etc


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## Jay H (Jan 29, 2009)

The 20amp circuit requirement though must be new because all the breakers in my house are 15amp, except for when the previous owner had a pool and a filter and he had a 20amp circuit running there. Since the pool is no more, I used that 20amp breaker and put outlets on the outside so I can run some high amperage lawn tools (and I have an Electric Makita chainsaw that is needs the current)...      OK, if the screw in terminal is the ground, the outlet is grounded to the box and my new outlet is grounded to the box too..

Jay


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## John_M (Jan 29, 2009)

Seige, the photo in your link is the perfect example of how one photo is worth a thousand words. Well done!


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## kenny chaos (Jan 29, 2009)

kenny chaos said:
			
		

> You're good!




I repeat, yes, you're good.
Don't be thrown off by too much information.


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## Ugly (Jan 29, 2009)

I always loop the ground wire through the ground terminal screw in the box and then directly attach to the outlet... takes five seconds and adds a little stability that stops the outlet from rocking in the box as well - think of tripod vs a ladder... I rarely use the push in connectors on modern receptacles for the same reason, I do it old school and make the loop around the terminal screws - pretty much have to with 12 gauge in your case

20 amp breakers for kitchen receps are a new concept replacing the old dual 15 requirement, but I still prefer split receptacles and they are still allowed, just that it's easier and cheaper to patch in only one 20Abreaker into a box (vs 2x15) and run only a 2/12 vs a 3/14 wire. Best modern electrical code change is probably arc-fault breakers for bedrooms. Wonder how many lives they've saved.


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## jdemaris (Jan 29, 2009)

Jay H said:
			
		

> The 20amp circuit requirement though must be new because all the breakers in my house are 15amp



A main reasoning behind using 20 amp circuits for all recepticles is not necessarily to provide 20 amps at an outlet.  In fact, most household appliances are limited to a 15 amp draw.  The problem is voltage drop.   15 amp circuits use 14 gauge wire - and you can't run 14 gauge wire very far without a substantial voltage-drop.   20 amp circuits use 12 gauge wire and can supply many 15 amp outlets at a farther distance from the main entrance panel.

Usually a 2% voltage drop at most is considered ideal.  A 14 gauge copper wire with a 15 amp draw can only be run 30 feet  from the main box to stay at 2% and ad 60 feet, there is a 4% drop.  12  gauge at 15 amps can run 45 feet and stay below a 2% drop.


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## jdemaris (Jan 29, 2009)

seige101 said:
			
		

> Mostly accurate statement, however the receptacle must be the self grounding type



Mostly accurate?  The guy DID say he is using a new 15 amp grounded duplex.   To my knowledge, they are all self-grounding and have been for many years. 

Different states use different versions of electrical code.  New codes are not law, just suggestions until taken on by any particular government entity.  In my state of NY, code states cleary exactly what I stated here - when installing a grounded three-prong outlet.  Code also allows the installation of a new two-prong non-grounded outlet in "old work" but not in new construction.


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## kenny chaos (Jan 29, 2009)

jdemaris said:
			
		

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Different inspectors in the same town use different interpretations of the code.


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## jdemaris (Jan 29, 2009)

kenny chaos said:
			
		

> Different inspectors in the same town use different interpretations of the code.



Yes, and it's the same with code enforcement officers doing buiding-code inspections in general.  They can use their own discression and either allow certain features that the printed code does not permit, or disallow features the printed code does allow.   In other words, they are empowered to take each inspection on an independent basis depending on the overall situation.
That's why it's usually not a good idea to piss off a code officer even if you know, for sure, he or she is wrong about something.  Been through this many times.  Once they tell you "no", even if you are right, you have to puruse in court.  Easier to acquiesce at the beginning.

I went through this recently with the county head of code enforcement in a northern Michigan county.  He did not know his a*s from a hole-in-the-ground and was wrong on many issues -easily proven in the writing in their own code that I suspect he never read.  I had to pretend otherwise to get done what I needed to do.  I suspect telling him he was a fool would not have gotten me very far.


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## kenny chaos (Jan 29, 2009)

Getting way off topic here but it's been my experience that "hard" code enforcers are really very easy to have removed for residents, commercial's a different story.  I've never been afraid to remind one who he works for.


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## Ugly (Jan 29, 2009)

jdemaris said:
			
		

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Amen, I once had an electrical inspector fail my new panel install in my cottage.. reason "Failed to bond ground to incoming propane lines" . I didn't have any propane lines, no tank, no natural gas etc... He might as well have written down "Failed to bribe inspector".

Had to get a certified electrician in to make the required "correction" which consisted of a fruitless hunt for the non existant propane lines, a cup of coffee and talking about how stupid the inspector is and what other mistakes he made on a regular basis. Cost me sixty bucks for the signature. Damn bureaucrats.


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## RJP Electric (Jan 29, 2009)

Just to let all of you know, If you have that old BX in your house that is considered a non grounded wire. The newer BX has a small aluminum strip in it to help carry current with the outer jacket back to ground in case of a fault. It was the second generation wire invented B meaning type B, X meaning experimental. It took the place of knob and tube and the outer jacket was considered protection only. Yes it does appear to be a ground if you use your meter and test from the hot to the outer casing or the box. What happens when you put power to a coil? It heats up, this can start a fire in the walls by using the jacket as a ground if there is a short circuit. Just replace with a non grounding outlet, they still make them. Also if you are extending the circuit from that older bx, even if you are using newer grounded romex. The branch circuit is still considered non grounded.


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## jdemaris (Jan 29, 2009)

RJP Electric said:
			
		

> It took the place of knob and tube.




Just a side-note.  I had to install some new knob-and-tube circuits at a museum site recenty - in areas frequented by the public. It was allowed by code in this situation and passed inspection.

Still quite a few houses in my area with knob-and-tube in the attics.


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## jdemaris (Jan 29, 2009)

RJP Electric said:
			
		

> The newer BX has a small aluminum strip in it to help carry current with the outer jacket back to ground in case of a fault. It was the second generation wire invented B meaning type B, X meaning experimental.



Interesting. I've never seen anything writtten about who chose the letters "BX."
Where did you get that info from?

When I was a kid, many old-timers called it "Greenfield Cable."   Ed Greenfield invented it, and I know that BX was a brand-name from one particular company.  Code classifies it as type AC cable.

The inventor called it "armored hose."


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## RJP Electric (Jan 29, 2009)

jdemaris said:
			
		

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Type AC is the new BX with the bonding strip called Armored Cable. The old stuff is not classified by the NEC.


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## jdemaris (Jan 29, 2009)

RJP Electric said:
			
		

> Type AC is the new BX with the bonding strip called Armored Cable. The old stuff is not classified by the NEC.



BX has always been a specific brand name, just as Romex and Band-Aid is.

I've got AC cable specifically referenced in 1940s electrical code books - not BX.  I can't comment on earlier documents since I don't have any code-books older than that.

AC stands for "armored cable."  MC is a later modification and I believe stands fo metal clad - even though some MC cable is not clad with metal. Old AC cable has no extra bonding strip and newer AC does. MC has a insulated ground wire and comes in many versions.

The legend of where the letters BX comes from - is still unclear as far as I know. I studied electric theory and history in the 60s, and at that time many people who were experts in the field, claimed "BX" stood for Bronx, NY because that's were General Electric Co. manufactured it.  BX was a registered trademark of General Electric Spraque Division.

I've also heard a few versions of the BX origin you mentioned, but never seen any proof of it.


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## jdemaris (Jan 29, 2009)

RJP Electric said:
			
		

> Type AC is the new BX with the bonding strip called Armored Cable. The old stuff is not classified by the NEC.



I just checked some old electric history books.   The classification of AC (armored cable) for Greenfield's invention was fomally adopted by the NEC in 1932.  This was the stuf the some people have called BX after the General Electric brand name.

The bonding wire that was later added became a requirement under NEC code in 1959. Still called AC.


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## kenny chaos (Jan 29, 2009)

jdemaris said:
			
		

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Slow day? :coolsmile:


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## seige101 (Jan 29, 2009)

jdemaris said:
			
		

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The self grounding ones have that extra brass tab or 2 wires where the screw attaches through the yoke. (refer to pic link in my above post) Most outlets especially in residential are not that type. Thats only why i was pointing out the difference.

Had the pleasure of doing electrical work in NY state several times. Whole different animal out there. You hire a private inspecting company instead of a town or city inspector. Licensing was very different if i am remembering correctly also.

John thanks! I was going to try and describe it but i found that pic instead. Much easier to understand with the visual.

Ugly, i have always prefered to make the hook around the screw terminals my self. Never did trust the stab in style. The exception i make is the kind there you loosen the screw, stick the wire in and then tighten.

You do need 2 20 amps circuits in the kitchen though.

Had the exact opposite problem with bonding the gas main in a commercial building once. We did it, the inspector saw it and compliment is for following the new code change, but then said to remove it because the gas inspector would not pass it!

Ac cable known as bx, greenfield or FMC or flex, and Mc cable. Gets confusing sometimes!

Good so see some other electricians on the board.


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## RJP Electric (Jan 30, 2009)

jdemaris said:
			
		

> The legend of where the letters BX comes from - is still unclear as far as I know. I studied electric theory and history in the 60s, and at that time many people who were experts in the field, claimed "BX" stood for Bronx, NY because that's were General Electric Co. manufactured it.  BX was a registered trademark of General Electric Spraque Division.
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> I've also heard a few versions of the BX origin you mentioned, but never seen any proof of it.




This is the Underwriters Laboratory newsletter 2/07. Good history lessons too! Thanks  

http://www.ul.com/tca/ec/february07.pdf


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## jdemaris (Jan 30, 2009)

RJP Electric said:
			
		

> This is the Underwriters Laboratory newsletter 2/07. Good history lessons too! Thanks



Could be 100% accurate, and then again, may not be.   I learned a long time ago to be skeptical of anything decribing historical events that lacks primary-source citations.

I'd like to see where the informatoin actually came from in regard to the evolution of the letters BX.

I sent the author an email and requested his sources.  Who knows?

I heard similar discussions over the name for NM cable often referred to as "Romex."  That, for sure, was named for the place it was first manufactured by General Cable in Rome, New York.


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## jdemaris (Jan 30, 2009)

seige101 said:
			
		

> Had the pleasure of doing electrical work in NY state several times. Whole different animal out there. You hire a private inspecting company instead of a town or city inspector. Licensing was very different if i am remembering correctly also.



In most of New York state, no electrician's license is required.  All work must pass inspection, however.  Certain cities require their own license and some have their own special code, e.g. New York City.

 My former business partner moved here (Otsego County NY) from Massachusetts where he had a Master Electrician's license.  Also had a BS in electrical engineering.   He agreed to take on a small residential service job in the nearby city of Oneonta (a small college town). I suspect most people would not regard it as real city, but in this rural area it seems crowded to me. To his surprise, he was not allowed.   Must have a Oneonta City license or NG.


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## seige101 (Jan 30, 2009)

jdemaris said:
			
		

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Thats what it was. Did a bunch of work on the outskirts of utica and Saugerties years ago. No license required, so at the time when i was an apprentice in ma, i could run jobs out in NY.


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## John_M (Jan 30, 2009)

Hey, all you electricians, do any of you have a digital camera so you can take a photo of how you wrap the ground wire about 3/4 way around the ground screw on a metal box before you attach it to the receptacle? 

I just tried to explain it and my thousand words still did not clarify that step. A simple photo would help immeasurably. 

I also do not like "push-in" connectors because I can sometimes pull them apart.  Those that allow you to push straight in, then tighten the ribbed connector onto the wire are pretty good (I cannot pull them apart), but I still wrap the wire around the ground screw. There is no way I can pull apart that connection without breaking the receptacle. I just feel more secure with that kind of mechanical connection.

Best wishes.


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## RJP Electric (Jan 31, 2009)

This is basically how it's done. Some guys will splice the 2 romex grounds with 2 tails, one to the device one to the box and use a standard wire nut. Both are acceptable. If you are using boxes with a clamps, do not use that same screw that is used to tighten the clamps onto the romex or do not use the wood screws that fasten the box to the wall either. Code requires you to use the 10-24 machine screw, grounding clip or other approved means, sorry no sheet rock or sheet metal screws.


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## John_M (Jan 31, 2009)

Thanks, RJP, now one can see where the ground coming out of the romex on the left wraps about 3/4 around the ground screw and is then joined with the ground from the romex on the right with a "pass through" wire nut. In two minutes your photo did what I was unable to do in 30 minutes of typing. 

I also like your description of how some guys will use 6" - 8" "pigtails" or "jumpers" attached separately to the ground screw and receptacle and then join all together with the wire nut. 

John_M


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## johnn (Feb 6, 2009)

Lot of info. about code`s, inspector`s, and inventor`s...but for me the AMP`S being pulled through a line, is tops. With today`s

power strip`s and as an example all the thing`s plugged into it for an entertainment system.....Then mama comes along and decides to vacumne, which can often be rated for 20 amp`s you are over-loading a 15-amp breaker and the #14 guage. I only use 15-amp and #14 for switches and lighting. I do have a rental which has push-matic...where do you find those?


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## doghouse (Feb 11, 2009)

ml said:
			
		

> Lot of info. about code`s, inspector`s, and inventor`s...but for me the AMP`S being pulled through a line, is tops. With today`s
> 
> power strip`s and as an example all the thing`s plugged into it for an entertainment system.....Then mama comes along and decides to vacumne, which can often be rated for 20 amp`s you are over-loading a 15-amp breaker and the #14 guage. I only use 15-amp and #14 for switches and lighting. I do have a rental which has push-matic...where do you find those?



"Push-matic" as in two button on-off switches?  If this is what you are talking about, check the back pages of 'this old house ' magazine.  Several venders sell 'period' decor items including two button on-off switches.  Some can cost as much as $25.  Pricy!


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## Ugly (Feb 11, 2009)

I think he means mini breakers that go in to replace a fuse , they look like a fuse but are circuit breakers. Every time a fuse blows at the rental, I put in one of those since it's most likely to get overloaded again. Acquired at my local hardware store... expensive critters.


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## doghouse (Feb 11, 2009)

I hear ya.  Sorry for any confusion.


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## johnn (Feb 11, 2009)

Thank`s guys, but these look like anormal breaker, but without the switch you throw back and forth. Instead you actually push in on the breaker and it engages to pass power. When it blows... it pops back out and will stick out a little past the other breakers, and if I remember right throws a little red flag in a small window. have had only one problem with a short I found but really should have a spare or two. I have only checked at Lowes,,home depot,, and Ace..no luck...I`m sure calling around I could find a supplier,,,just thought someone might be familiar with a supplier. I`ll do my homework. The house was built in an erea they used to call "Shell Camp", which housed employees of the refinery.


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## Tarmsolo60 (Feb 11, 2009)

Pushmatics are a real dinosaur, but a quick google search has many places online to order.


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## RJP Electric (Feb 12, 2009)

I posted a reply thread this morning, I don't know what happened to the post. Weird?

The ITE bulldog push-matics are still available brand new, Any electrical supply house that stocks ITE/Siemens will carry them. If you need some PM me I have a bunch of pre installed ones that I have removed from service upgrades that I will be happy to donate to the cause.


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## johnn (Feb 13, 2009)

RJP Electric said:
			
		

> I posted a reply thread this morning, I don't know what happened to the post. Weird?
> 
> The ITE bulldog push-matics are still available brand new, Any electrical supply house that stocks ITE/Siemens will carry them. If you need some PM me I have a bunch of pre installed ones that I have removed from service upgrades that I will be happy to donate to the cause.



  Very generous of you. However ,,Houston we have a problem,,,  I am much better suited to growing a callous,  than navigating a computer. My son-in-law was a big GAMER so he built this for me installing Windows XP Professional, I finally got tired of games wasting my time, and finally learned how to search and learn.  In the end however, my wife set up my E-mail account just to have one (never used) and 3 years later can`t remember the pass-word.I can`t retrieve,,,but maybe I can send??? Does this sound right?  Sorreeyyy.


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