# where to start to explore solar PV in MA ?



## PassionForFire&Water (Jun 3, 2015)

pros & cons of leasing?
what are reputable companies to contact?
Thanks


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## mass_burner (Jun 3, 2015)

I have heard the pitch from solar city, just not sold yet. I am now thinking of being my own provider by financing my own install.

Seems there's a new company doing this everyday.


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## bdud (Jun 4, 2015)

With leasing you will always be paying a fee to the leasing company and your overall return will be less over the long term. It also depends on available cash, how long you intend stay in the house, etc.. We just had a 6.3kw system installed which we purchased via the Solarize Challenge program. http://www.solarflair.coto m/solarize/franklin-solar-challenge There is also a Solarize Mass program that your town can run.


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## woodgeek (Jun 5, 2015)

I would say the only reason to lease and not buy would be opportunity cost.  If you are currently saving to a 401k or equivalent, but not maxing out what you can put in, then the upfront on solar could instead be put there, and would presumably earn a higher rate of return over the long term.  Alternatively, you could start a Roth or some other after tax account, which would also over time likely earn more than solar, if you wanted.

The return calculation on solar is not as simple as dividing the annual util savings by the install cost (the simple return), because unlike an investment you can't sell the array in 'x' years and get a full return of the face value in addition to keeping your earlier earnings.  In other words, you need to estimate at what point the value of the array would be effectively zero, I'd say 25 years to be conservative, so you need to deduct 4% from the simple return.  That is, if you array was scrapped in 25 years, and your simple return (relative to grid power) was 4%, you just broke even relative to grid power, really, in terms of lifetime cost.  Some will tell you that the array will last for 40 or 50 years....yeah, but the inverters won't, the roof under it won't, the the net metering arrangement might not last 25 years.  If panels get cheaper, in what world are old expensive panels worth more than cheap new panels?  Etc.

So, if you are younger person trying to build a retirement account and net worth by investing and compound interest, then buying solar is prob not a winner.  IF leasing has no upfront, is cheaper than the grid, and you will be in the house for a long time, then lease if you want solar and put your cash to work somewhere else.

If you are older, maxed out on retirement savings, making more conservative investments with lower returns, or simply investment risk averse, then buying solar is more attractive.  If, for example, you are currently overpaying your mortgage, the (risk free) return on that 'investment' is your mortgage interest rate (less marginal taxes if you itemize), probably 3-4%.  If you already have all the risky investments you want and you still have a mortgage, then ask if the solar payback (simple-depreciation) is greater than pre-paying your mortgage.  It is not lower risk.


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## newburner (Jun 5, 2015)

I am in MA and lease with SolarCity. Its not a PPA.

I love having the panels on my roof and the savings it provides. I have no problems with the contract I entered into with SolarCity however, their customer service skills really suck. 

I've had nothing but problems with SolarCity (the company) since my system was installed. I won't bore you with the details as there are many. But as for the system itself and what it doing for me financially, I have nothing but praise. No regrets on the lease.

Its a 55 panel, 14.025 kW system.


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## mass_burner (Jun 5, 2015)

newburner said:


> I am in MA and lease with SolarCity. Its not a PPA.
> 
> I love having the panels on my roof and the savings it provides. I have no problems with the contract I entered into with SolarCity however, their customer service skills really suck.
> 
> ...


Can you please summarize the issues your having?


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## velvetfoot (Jun 5, 2015)

How about if you want to sell the house and some prospective customers thing that the solar are ugly and intend on tearing it off as soon as they buy the house and won't assume a lease for something they don't want.  What happens to the lease then?

Does solar make the house more desirable or less, to the majority of people?  I can see it as another reason to chisel you down on the selling price.  

Don't get me wrong, I'm a solar booster, and still might get a system installed, but we're retired, house is metal roof, some trees, not ideal South orientation (more SW), etc.


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## peakbagger (Jun 5, 2015)

solarpaneltalk.com is a forum similar to Hearth. Like hearth there are a couple of "characters" but if you spend some time lurking and searching you will get educated.

Leases are potentially far more expensive over the long term. If you don't plan to be in your house for the duration of the lease, a lease may not be for you as the leasing company has an effective lien on your house and they have to be involved with the future sales transaction unless you buy them out (at an inflated price).   

Realistically if you know what you want for a system, you can get a better deal buying. Leasing was introduced as a way of reemploying used car dealers . The devil is in the details and solar leases are loaded with details. They are also trying to predict the future and in most states the incentives for solar are one legislative session from changing. If you dont understand every bit of fine print, the you shouldn't be signing a lease. Getting to the point where you can understand it is going to take awhile.  

I expect that the drum beat for leasing will crank up prior the federal tax credit dropping from 30% to 10% at the end of 2016.

Solar City and most of the other big firms are all rushing to be the biggest and they are doing it by losing money, at some point they either start making money or they go out of business. What happens if and when they go out of business and how it affects lease holders is a big unknown.

One thing to consider is Solar City is rushing into the Mass market and expanding rapidly. They are hiring electricians right and left. It is quite easy to lose sight on quality when expanding so rapidly. My preference is DIY if you have the skills, or stick with an installer that has a long term crew and local reputation to maintain. I have read of a couple of Solar City screw ups but in the end they seem to have fixed what was wrong. They definitely are going to be pushing the crews hard and its easy to take shortcuts.

DIY with microinverters isn't that hard but local permitting may make it too difficult. If you know an electrician you may be able to work out a deal where you do the grunt work on the roof and he does the conduit run and the tie in. The racking manufacturers do the racking design and have very well written instruction manuals and the microinverters are pretty much designed for plug and play. AltE store out of Hudson Mass seems to be a good resource. The biggest hassle is your main entrance panel, if its a newer 200 amp panel you should be set for most home size systems but if you have a 100 or 60 Amp box, its time to upgrade or investigate a line side tap (definitely time for an electrician).   I have DIYed three different systems (and did a major revamp of one of them). I did everyone of them completely solo including rigging panels up on second story roof. I may not have set any records but I saved money and learned something. All of  mine are high voltage DC systems with central inverters, they are somewhat less costly but require more engineering and probably out of the abilities of typical homeowner.

One thing to consider before you go solar is the age of your roof. You really should have a new roof under a PV array as replacing it after the fact is expensive as the array needs to be removed. I am a fan of stripping the roof and putting EPDM underlayment on the entire roof as a solar installation will make several holes in your roof. The flashing systems used can be excellent if the instructions are followed but I still like the security of self healing EPDM underneath. It also substantially extends your roof life. Some folks are claiming the cost of roof replacement under the 30% tax credit, but I sure wouldn't want to be on the other side of the table from an IRS auditor trying to justify it.


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## newburner (Jun 5, 2015)

mass_burner said:


> Can you please summarize the issues your having?


In summary.

1. I could not, and never have been able to reach my salesman after I signed the contract. To this day, I'm not sure who to call for specific issues other than the toll free number which dumps me to the next available operator who knows nothing about my previous calls.

2. The install crew wasn't informed that they were supposed to replace my service panel. They thought they were only there to install the system. Because of the "added work" they had a bad attitude from the beginning. So much so that I had to ask them to leave my property half way through the job. 

3. The install caused a number of leaks in my roof. I called SolarCity and they tried to tell me it wasn't their fault. They said it was because my gutters were so dirty that water was backing up onto the roof. After I informed them that I cleaned the gutters myself prior to the install, they agreed to send a crew out to take a look. The crew, said it wasn't their fault either so I had a contractor come out to inspect the damage and confirm that it was due to the panel install. Armed with that info, I was able to get them to fix it.

4. Their online monitoring system is full of bugs and works half the time. Their response is that they offer the monitoring for free so I shouldn't expect too much. However, the monitoring service is a core item listed in the contract that says they will provide it.

5. They charge me $7.50 to make a lease payment if I don't use auto withdrawal then if I don't pay by the due date they hound me for payment. To which I reply, "I'm paying an extra $7.50 to make the payment when and how I want. If you waive the fee, I'll be happy to pay on time. Until that time, I will consider the $7.50 a late fee."

6. They continually lose my payments. They call me looking for last months payment that they already cashed.

That's just a few of my problems.

I am very happy with the lease itself and the system though. We are locked in for 20 years at a rate that's lower than our electric bill has ever been so I'll never have to worry about getting $700 electric bills again. 

We saved over $200 in April and we'll save even more in May since I will have a zero bill. We generated almost 2,000kwh and used about 800 in may. Since I'm not on a PPA, I get to keep that overproduction and use it in the winter.

About the roof, I read a previous post about needing to have a new roof. Not necessarily. I have an old roof that will need replacing soon. I purposely installed over that so I can let the savings from the panels pay for my new roof. I just don't have the money to pay for a new roof out of pocket. The cost to take the panels down then reinstall is only $499 and that can be paid for with 2 months of savings from the panels.

About turning away potential buyers. I guess that's a matter of opinion. I plan on staying here the rest of my life. If I did move, I would only be interested in purchasing a home equipped with panels. After having panels, i don't think id ever want to pay an electric bill again so i wouldn't buy a house without them. I'm sure I'm not the only one in the world with that mindset.

Long winded, sorry.


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## newburner (Jun 5, 2015)

Also, until i got panels, I wasn't aware of the huge lease vs buy debate. It gets pretty ugly on other sites and I try to steer clear of such debates as I will here. My mindset is that both models have merit. Yes, there are more financial rewards to be had when buying but I live paycheck to paycheck. I have no savings and no retirement. My credit won't even allow me to tap into the equity in my home. For me, a lease made the best sense. 

Yes, I'll pay more over the 20 year term. That's not a secret that only the pro-buying crowd knows. But for me, and those like me, its better to save money now as opposed to money later. Heck, I probably won't even be alive in 20 years anyway.


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## newburner (Jun 5, 2015)

Also, also, (sorry more comes to mind after I hit send)

Someone mentioned south facing orientation. If you are buying, yes south facing is a necessity to get the best production for your buck.

If you are leasing, it doesn't matter as much since you are paying only for the electricity you actually make. (If you have a PPA, you are paying per kWh, but if you have a lease you get a guarantee to produce a specific amount if you don't, you get a refund. Thus you pay only for what you make)

Because of that and because there is no upfront investment, a optimally placed south facing array is not as much of a priority.

In fact, 22 of my 55 panels are placed facing northeast and those panels alone made enough to offset 95% of our usage in may.

Just something to think about.


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## bdud (Jun 5, 2015)

I had been considering solar for quite a while, prices seemed expensive a couple of years ago, I also did not like how some of the big companies sub-contracted the work and you never really dealt with a person who had actually been to your house. I replaced my roof a year ago and then spray foamed the rafters. When the first structural survey was done no additional strengthening was needed for the roof, regretfully with the company I did use, SolarFlair, they said collar ties and knee wall were required. This is a big deal with all the spray foam insulation up there and I spoke to the structural engineer and with some more calculations it turned out just the additional collar ties were required. SolarFlair told me they would be careful removing the foam but would not repair it afterwards, I was ok with that. When the installation crew turned up first day, they had come prepared with a long knife to cut the foam. When they finished they used fire-code foam to repair and put back the foam patches where they could which I did not expect them to do. They also left the place very tidy and explained what they were doing. They put the disconnect on the outside of the house just where I wanted it. The Enphase Envoy also had a problem with just rebooting. The installer contacted their IT guy and he planned to come out the next day. I wanted to play and found it had a problem getting an ip address from our stupid Fios router. We set a static IP address when he came. The manager was here for the commissioning and I email him questions occasionally.  
I am really pleased with SolarFlair and have no problem recommending them.


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## PassionForFire&Water (Jun 6, 2015)

newburner said:


> Also, until i got panels, I wasn't aware of the huge lease vs buy debate. It gets pretty ugly on other sites and I try to steer clear of such debates as I will here. My mindset is that both models have merit. Yes, there are more financial rewards to be had when buying but I live paycheck to paycheck. I have no savings and no retirement. My credit won't even allow me to tap into the equity in my home. For me, a lease made the best sense.
> 
> Yes, I'll pay more over the 20 year term. That's not a secret that only the pro-buying crowd knows. But for me, and those like me, its better to save money now as opposed to money later. Heck, I probably won't even be alive in 20 years anyway.




Hi Newburner, can you please list some of the other websites / forums on solar PV ?
Thanks


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## peakbagger (Jun 6, 2015)

Newburner has a far better attitude than I would have with initial and ongoing issues. Everyone's financial situation is different so if he is happy with the lease that's all that counts and his detailed experiences may cause others that are less tolerant for ongoing hassles to shop for other firms that have better customer service. Other firms offer similar leases and that's where getting references and shopping around make sense.

As I mentioned previously, large companies are all rushing to sell systems at a loss in order to build market share, if they are wiling to do it and someone can take advantage of it more power to them. State utilities are desperate to throw money to increase renewable installations and states like Mass, are handing out subsidies, by surcharging other ratepayers, another reason to jump on the solar bandwagon as this wont last.  Things like sticking panels on a northeast facing roof is a hint that the company is just buying market share. I am surprised that Mass doesn't have a solar fraction requirement, In NH and most states that have incentives, the site has to be audited so that the panels need to receive a certain percentage of the available sunlight. A northeast facing panel is going to produce less power than south facing array, it still can work but there is about a 10% hit up front. For those involved with the Solar Hot Water boom during the Carter administration, similar business models didn't survive for long once the incentives were pulled. Many folks ended up with orphan systems that were abandoned by national firms. Luckily PV is far more durable and if installed correctly probably will keep running as long as the current generation of microinverters do not experience the rate of long term failure that the first generation did. 

I standby my contention on replacing roofs prior to solar. I like to do a project once and be done with it.  Unless the panels were removed and the mounts were replaced with a proper flashing system, the leaks are not really repaired rather delayed. Many contractors just go up on the roof and squeeze in some more goop around the mounts to delay the leaks until later. If the proper mount system is employed no goop is needed. I talked to a roofer awhile back and he had commented that he would charge extra for a reroof for solar as typically the panels are removed but the mounts aren't. Thus they have to work around the mounts which slow things down.  Unless he replaces the mounts with ones that he will accept, he will not guarantee the roof.  Given the issues with long term customer service, I will curious 3 to 5 years down the road how well SC deals with a request to remove the panels.

As I am a happy solar user who hasn't paid for power for several years and partially heat my house with surplus generation during shoulder seasons with a far lower rate of subsidy than Mass, I am not suggesting not going solar I am suggesting that great care be taking in signing a long term commitment unless all the details of this commitment are understood.


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## newburner (Jun 6, 2015)

Peak,

Given the customer service track record, I too will be interested how well they deal with the removal. The $499 cost is clearly stated in the contract so I do have that to fall back on. I also have the option to do it myself but....

Yes, I am aware that I have tons of patience when it comes to the issues I've endured. However, I'm saving literally hundreds of dollars a month so its a trade off. I can't change it so I make the best of it.

To the "sticking panels on northeast roofs" comment. I've heard it before. I've even been personally called "stupid" for allowing it. The fact is, those 22 NE panels offset 95% of my usage last month. The other 33 were just banking energy for the winter. I just can't understand the negativity I get regarding them considering the lease.


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## newburner (Jun 6, 2015)

PassionForFire&Water said:


> Hi Newburner, can you please list some of the other websites / forums on solar PV ?
> Thanks


If you google "solar lease vs buy" you can experience the hate and vitriol first hand.

I've found that trying to explain the merits of a solar lease to most people is like trying to explain why I burn pine in my stove. It is futile.


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## PassionForFire&Water (Jun 20, 2015)

Update on my end;
I had 3 companies over; Solarcity, Astrum (ahat is Energy Solar Direct) and Trinity Solar.
And I also had one phone consultation from a company in California; he wanted me to sign a contract right over the phone and internet
They seem to work all in a very similar manner.
Initial visit was in each case an individual that does not have a lot of knowledge.
If you ask to many difficult questions, they just run away and you never hear of them again.
This looks like its gone be a long and painful process


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## georgepds (Jun 29, 2015)

I had my system put in by sunlightsolar of Waltham MA. I used them for my 18 panel roof install ( 14.6 MWH produced and counting) . i installed 10 panels, and then when they produced so much more than my 10 yr old system, i installed another 8 six months later.  Sunlightsolar does a good job, and they will help if there is a later problem. I used 250 watt panels with an enphase microinverter per panel

There are substantial incentives for ownership in MA .

1) Net metering: if you produce a kwh you get paid the same as if you buy a kwh. Funds accumulate in your account, you do not get a check

2) SRECs:  for each 1 MWH you produce you can sell and SREC ( currently returns ~$225/ Rec)

3) MA will pay for a portion of the capital costs on all residential installs  (~15% of costs, can't remeber al the details)

4) if your house is valued at less than the median in your county, MA will pay an additional amount per watt installed ( IIRC ~ 80 cents / watt)

5) MA offers an additional tax credit (~$1k) on the installation costs

In MA the payback is more like 5-6 years. Here are the calculations presented to me in August of 2012. Two things have changed.. SRECS pay less, and panels cost less

*~~~~~~~~~~ Estimate of ROI ~~~~~~~~~*

Solar Panel Manufacturer              Solar World
Solar Panel Model                          SW 250 
Total Number of SunPower Solar Panels  11 
Total Solar Panel Wattage (STC) 2,750 
Inverter Model Enphase M215 SPR Enphase M210
Total System Cost Without Rebate $12,375 
Minus Rebate (Based on Estimated Site Conditions) $2,200 
*Final Cost to You $10,175*
Rebate Percentage of Total System Cost 17.8% 

Amount Of Federal & State Tax Credit $4,053
*Final Cost (after 30% Federal Tax Credit, State Tax Credit and MassCEC
Rebate) $6,123 
*
Total Estimated Yearly Solar Kilowatt Hours Produced 3,358
Estimated Percentage of Electric Provided by Solar 155%
First Year Estimated Electricity Cost Savings in Dollars $470
First Year Estimated S-REC Income in Dollars $957
*Estimated Payback Year 4* <<<<<<
Estimated 10 Year Profit $8,637
Estimated Yearly ROI 24%
*Massachusetts Industry Leading Ten Year Labor Warranty*
Inverter Warranty 25 Years (Enphase M215) 15 Years (Enphase M210)
Sunpower Inverter Warranty 10 Years
Panel Warranty for 25 Years
Proper Solar Panel to Inverter Design to Ensure Efficiency in High Heat and Over Time
No Exposed Roof Penetrations, High Quality Flashing Roof Penetration System
High Quality Stainless Steel and Aluminum Racking System


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## georgepds (Jun 29, 2015)

PassionForFire&Water said:


> Update on my end;
> I had 3 companies ...
> They seem to work all in a very similar manner.
> Initial visit was in each case an individual that does not have a lot of knowledge.
> ...


 
I didn't find it that painful, rather straight forward. The vendor I choose answered all the questions he could, and then sent pdfs on the stuff where more information was of interest.

The procedure was

1) initial site visit to determine applicability of MA credits ( depends on solar exposure)
2) second site visit by strutctural engineer ( to determine if roof can bear the loads)
3) formal offer


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