# Help me with my yard, please.



## Danno77 (May 8, 2013)

I grew up in the country. Yard meant everything that was green that you mowed. There was some grass in it.

My yard NOW (in town) looks like complete garbage. it's like 75% weeds or non-grass, and there are about 3 different kinds of grass making up the other 25%.

This one portion of the yard near the front of my house has potential, so i'd like to start there and make it all nice, then if things work out, I'll spread my knowledge to the rest of the yard.

First, I bought this Ortho Weed B Gone stuff and followed the application directions in my spray tank. Did absolutely nothing, not even to the dandelions. Did a reapply two weeks later.

So far I've mowed once and need to mow again. It's been two days since the last Ortho application, so apparently I can go ahead and mow. Here's the biggest problem I'm having though, I have HUGE spots where it's nothing but this blanket/carpet type weed. I've included pictures.

I figure if I know what it is, then I can move forward with treatment. Once I have the weeds dead the plan was to maintain for about a month, then aerate, then seed as appropriate, fertilize and water, then maintain.

Sound like a plan? someone please let me know. This part of the yard can be salvaged, the rest of the yard might just get totally plowed up and I'll start from scratch. it's really bad. at least it's green this time of year, though!


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## Badfish740 (May 8, 2013)

Danno77 said:


> I grew up in the country. Yard meant everything that was green that you mowed. There was some grass in it.
> 
> My yard NOW (in town) looks like complete garbage. it's like 75% weeds or non-grass, and there are about 3 different kinds of grass making up the other 25%.


 
Not sure how big of a patch that weed takes up, but is it small enough that you could tear it all up, work the soil a bit, and then reseed? I use Scotts Patchmaster for this-it works really well. Fertilizer, seed, and ground up newspaper (keeps the seed moist) all mixed together. You just put it down and water. I used it to fill in some dead spots and where I ground down some stumps below grade and filled in with topsoil. You get pretty decent grass in about two weeks.  One bag is about $30 on Amazon and covers 300 SF.


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## Danno77 (May 8, 2013)

There are a couple of big spots where I could do that, but then there are these weeds intermingled, too, so I need to do something to kill them all.


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## Delta-T (May 8, 2013)

just by luck alone I have found that a black tarp left covering "undesirable" vegitation over the course of a few sunny days pretty much does them in. then you have a fairly manageable sized area to work with at a time. sure, your neighbors think you're wacky...but I dont think thats anything new for you sir.


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## Ashful (May 8, 2013)

I have some experience to share here.  Will post instructions tonight.  Headed out to pick up my new splitter now!


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## Danno77 (May 8, 2013)

HA! i've done the tarp thing before, and like I mentioned, that's a totally viable option on those larger spots. I like that idea better than digging it all out, actually.

Joful. Totally jealous. I keep thinking I'll make the jump to a splitter, but it just never happens... Maybe this is the year. I can't seem to keep up anymore.


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## gzecc (May 8, 2013)

I would first use a broad leaf week killer (without fertilizer). If its powder make sure to put it down when the grass is wet (so it sticks) and its not going to rain for 48 hours.
After the broad leaves are killed, identify what else you have and either remove manually or with herbicide.
I would then mow high regularly and fertilize before it gets too hot. Plug aerate and over seed in the fall. Next year you'll have a much better lawn.  You'll still have work to do but it will be moving in the right direction.
If you have very poor soil you may need a top dressing of top soil. Probably best to have your soil tested. You may need lime also.


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## Danno77 (May 8, 2013)

thanks gzecc. That stuff I used IS a broadleaf killer (no fertilizer included), it just didn't do a thing to the weeds. I don't understand. Then, like you said, I need to identify the other stuff, see pictures below, I can't find that stuff in my google searches.


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## lukem (May 8, 2013)

Chickweed.  Midwest drought last year has that stuff popping up everywhere.  Hit it with some 24D and reseed.


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## nate379 (May 8, 2013)

Round Up the whole yard, till and reseed.


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## jdp1152 (May 8, 2013)

Read up on lawn/weeds at the Va Tech website...excellent information there.  Patches of weeds that large are usually symptoms of poor soil conditions.  See if you can't get some soil testing done.  Price ranges from free to 10 or so bucks.  While you're waiting on that, get your lawn core aerated.  Most weeds run shallow root systems in compact soil conditions.  Your grass roots run deeper and get screwed with such soil conditions.  Get the generic version of round up and kill those heavy patch areas.  After dead, dethatch your entire lawn, but just grind up those dead areas.  Reseed with whatever grass is good for your area.  I won this battle last year with crab grass.  Blasted it with quinchlorac and took a thatch rake and cleaned up all the dead grass and planted a mix of rye, fescue, and bluegrass......and then the watering ban happened.  Not that it matters since I had three wells dug in December of last year and am now on day four of reseeding the lawn.  It's always going to be an uphill battle for me since my neighbors only mow their field of weeds once a month.  I'm hoping that my newly stacked wall of wood will slow down some of the infiltration.


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## jdp1152 (May 8, 2013)

Oh yeah, be sure to not use a preemergent weed killer until your reseeding efforts have been mowed a few times, otherwise you'll just prevent the grass from germinating.


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## Ashful (May 8, 2013)

Danno77 said:


> Joful. Totally jealous. I keep thinking I'll make the jump to a splitter, but it just never happens... Maybe this is the year. I can't seem to keep up anymore.


 

I'm actually jealous of anyone who has the time to split by hand!  I really enjoy doing it, and buying this splitter feels like I'm admitting defeat.  I split 14 cords last year, half by hand and half with a rented splitter... just can't keep up at it, given everything else I have going on, right now.

On the lawn, I had the fortune to buy a house from a man who owned a very large turf care company.  He supplies the fertilizers and equipment to golf course and turf farms all around the northeast.  Our front lawn was beautiful, a true showpiece, but he completely ignored the back and side lawns (not visible from street).  I got together with one of his lawn technicians (these guys really know their stuff), and started a program.  I'm dealing with 4 acres of lawn, so the goal was something that could be handled large-scale, without tedious weeding, etc.  After the 1st year, there was a very noticeable improvement.  Now half way thru our second year, the lawn is almost perfect.  Neighbors and passers by actually stop to ask how the heck I did it, so here's the plan.  I'm on the boarder of zones 7-8, so I just aim for the earlier part of each listed date range.



 (click to enlarge)

In addition to the above, based on our local soil conditions, I put down a pelletized calcium (PhysioCal) twice per year.  This just helps keep the pH right.  A soil check (or talking to your local turf care co.) will tell you if you need that, but most around here do.

My lawn is Tall Fescue, which does very well in this area, with the one caveat that it does not creep / self-heal.  So, I typically replace "Round 4" listed below with a fall over-seeding and starter fertilizer.  Overseeding is expensive, but is really the only way to keep a perfect lawn, if dealing with a non-creeping variety.  We typically have draught conditions July into early August, and the grass is too stressed to do anything with it.  After the rain starts back up in mid-August, I wait until the lawn looks healthy again, hit it with some broadleaf weed killer (Surge) in the tow-behind sprayer, wait three weeks, and then do an aerate (tow behind plug aerator), overseed, and starter fertilizer.  Again, lawn looks like a perfect green carpet, even when the neighbors brown out in July.

I can't speak for any consumer-grade products.  Like you, I never had much luck with them.  Find your local turf co, and they will have experts who give you a similar plan, with commercial-grade product.


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## Ashful (May 8, 2013)

jdp1152 said:


> Oh yeah, be sure to not use a preemergent weed killer until your reseeding efforts have been mowed a few times, otherwise you'll just prevent the grass from germinating.


 
? Not sure I follow. Re-seeding should be done in the fall for zones 7-8. Pre-emergent is usually put down in March, before anything has a chance to germinate, and is typically only effective for 9 weeks.

Any seeding done in the spring should be mostly annual ryegrass, or some other cheap seed. It's going to die in the mid-summer drought, anyway. Save the expensive re-seeding for the fall.



jdp1152 said:


> Patches of weeds that large are usually symptoms of poor soil conditions. See if you can't get some soil testing done. Price ranges from free to 10 or so bucks.


Great advice, for year 2 or 3. The local turf pro's won't need to see a sample to know the conditions of your soil, if it hasn't already been treated. After you get a year of treatment behind you, they'll want to see a soil sample, to fine-tune your plan.


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## Danno77 (May 9, 2013)

good stuff here.

Any advice on why my weed killer stuffs (Ortho Weed B Gon Max which has 24D in it, BTW) isn't killing stuff? Am I being impatient? I do read online that it usually takes 2 applications, and I just finished the second application a few days ago. How does it kill weeds, I'm used to your general round-up stuff that just kills completely in a day or two, so maybe I'm being impatient?

Anyway, I've done two applications and it appears as though that's all that's recommended/allowed, so if this doesn't improve in the next week or so then I'm just going to move on.

For this portion of the lawn I planned on watering this summer, does that impact the ability/usefulness to seed around mid june or so here? I want a hardy grass that will look good from early spring to early fall. On the rest of my lawn it does tend to burn out in late summer and make a comeback when it cools in early fall, but I don't ever water it.

Was at the store looking at aerators. The plug type is best, but for the $ is it that much better?

Also, what's the consensus on rolling out my lawn. I did have a problem with burrowing little monsters, but treating for grubs seems to make them attack other neighbors yards instead. Alas, though, my yard has suffered from this. Do you roll it, or let it settle on its own? If you roll it, I assume you do that and THEN aerate, right?


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## jdp1152 (May 9, 2013)

Danno77 said:


> good stuff here.
> 
> Any advice on why my weed killer stuffs (Ortho Weed B Gon Max which has 24D in it, BTW) isn't killing stuff? Am I being impatient? I do read online that it usually takes 2 applications, and I just finished the second application a few days ago. How does it kill weeds, I'm used to your general round-up stuff that just kills completely in a day or two, so maybe I'm being impatient?
> 
> ...


 
Add a surfactant to your weed killer.  You can get the cheapest one and it's just as effective as the pricey ones.  Online stores are your friend.  Most weed killers don't have soil activity, so you'd be fine seeding as soon as you get the dead thatch taken care of.  Double check with your weed killer to be sure however.

If you're able to water, spring/summer seeding is fine...we don't all have 4 acres to deal with like joful where watering probably isn't an option.  You just need to make sure the ground stays wet, but not saturated.  Easy enough for me since I work from home.  You may also want to top dress with soil/compost/loam to help keep it moist.  I don't bother since drought up here is the exception not the norm.  I just seed before a time when I know we're going to get a few days of rain.

Plug aeration is the best.  Spikes are only temporary solutions for alleviating compaction.  Aerating will help get rid of your burrows.  Longer term grub control, look into milky spore. To each their own, but I tend to go with organic approaches when feasible.


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## SIERRADMAX (May 9, 2013)

Had the same problem last year. I had some grass and mostly weeds. Here's what I did and my lawn. I applied a herbicide mid august to everything and waited 2 weeks to watch everything brown. I used my push mower and cut the grass on the lowest available setting, almost scalping the ground. Blades were toast after. I then rented a slice seeder and slit seeded my yard early September. The clippings from the previous cut acted as fertilizer and kept moisture for the new seed. Water...Water...Water twice a day and in 4 weeks, my lawn looked nice.


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## Bret Hart (May 9, 2013)

No pics to post of the destruction but I just put out an app. of a generic Tri-Mec on Saturday morning just after the dew dried. Mixed it at 3oz/gallon in a hand pump sprayer and walked the yard looking for weeds. By 5:00 all of the broad leaf weeds I hit were wilting hard.

What rate did you mix at?


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## Danno77 (May 9, 2013)

I'd have to look at the bottle, but I measured it out very carefully. I think it was 2.5oz per gallon for 400 square feet. The problem is that the area I sprayed is  larger than 400 square feet, but I didn't spray every inch. I targeted spots. Maybe I applied to little of the mix...


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## MasterMech (May 9, 2013)

Danno77 said:


> Was at the store looking at aerators. The plug type is best, but for the $ is it that much better?


Yes! Spikes don't count!   Youtube for videos of golf greens/fairways undergoing aeration.  That's some serious aeration!

Listen to Joful, and serious lawn renovations should be undertaken in the fall, just before the rain starts again. Otherwise you will be a slave to the grass all spring and summer. Or worse, lose the entire investment. Do your homework on what grasses do best in your area.

Weed B Gone is a stealthy killer. I did half of my back yard with it from a hose mount sprayer, thought it didn't work. 30 days later there wasn't a weed on that side of the yard. Works best when the plants are growing the fastest.


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## Danno77 (May 9, 2013)

MasterMech said:


> .... Otherwise you will be a slave to the grass all spring and summer...


I kinda want to be consumed by the task. It's like a giant zen garden, but just with grass.


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## Bret Hart (May 9, 2013)

Maybe a little light but you should have seen at least a little change in the weeds by now. I sprayed my entire yard last year with this product with a Toro Multi-Pro 1250 that I had in my shop for repairs. I mixed it slightly weaker than the owners recommendation, he's a turf pro but this stuff smells bad and I didn't want the neighbors to complain, and it took several days before I saw any wilting. It's a 2,4,D product too.

Did it rain within a few hours of application?


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## Danno77 (May 9, 2013)

no rain until two days later (both applications, actually)


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## Ashful (May 9, 2013)

Danno, did you state how big your yard is?  How big the problem area is?  Some of my recommendations depend on this.

Grub control goes down around Memorial Day / early June, so this is the time to discuss this.

Spike aerators are not very good at, well... aerating.  Plug type is the only way to go, walk-behind self-propelled, or tow-behind.  A 12hp Cub Cadet can pull a typical 42" plug type... just barely.


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## Danno77 (May 9, 2013)

I'd need to measure it. this area is fairly small. I don't have any new pictures of it, but I'll include old pictures. The area I'm focusing on starts the drive (there is now a sidewalk and that drive has been expanded almost to that tree nearest the mailbox). Then it goes to from the house to the street, and down the hill to where you can see a cement slab. That cement slab is where my "Barn" is now.
(eta: for perspective, that narrow side of the main brick house is about 17ft)


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## MasterMech (May 9, 2013)

Danno77 said:


> I kinda want to be consumed by the task. It's like a giant zen garden, but just with grass.


Yeah but you shouldn't be fighting to save it all summer.  Put a plan together, start in the fall.  You will see results next season and perfection comes gradually after that.  This stuff doesn't happen in 1 season.

Not unless you plan on buying a LOT of sod.


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## Delta-T (May 9, 2013)

Danno77 said:


> I kinda want to be consumed by the task. It's like a giant zen garden, but just with grass.


you could pick the weeds by hand, individually...or burn them with a magnifying glass.


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## Bret Hart (May 9, 2013)

This is what we've been poking holes around here with lately. Best walk aerator in the business in my opinion.


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## Bocefus78 (May 9, 2013)

Danno,

The big box store stuff is normally not as effective as other concentrates you mix yourself. Got to TSC, rural king, etc and get a quart of trimec. Its more effective than 2,4d. You should see evidence of dying weeds in 48hrs max. It should run about $30/ qt.  Mix per label, and then add .5oz of liquid dishsoap per gallon of H2O.  It will help the trimec stick. Do the soap AFTER filling tank with water or you will have a tank full of suds and only half the water you want. You can buy surfactant to add if you so choose (only difference is no suds), but people have been using soap for ever and a day. It's proven....google it.  Apply mixture to DRY lawn. No morning dew or anything. Next year, the very first app of fert needs to have a good quality pre-emergent in it such as dimension to prevent that outbreak. PM for more info....I can go on all day on this topic.


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## MasterMech (May 9, 2013)

Bret Hart said:


> This is what we've been poking holes around here with lately. Best walk aerator in the business in my opinion.


Motion seconded.  We run the same machine.  Bumpy ride if you find roots or a rock tho.


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## Ashful (May 9, 2013)

MasterMech said:


> Yeah but you shouldn't be fighting to save it all summer. Put a plan together, start in the fall. You will see results next season and perfection comes gradually after that. This stuff doesn't happen in 1 season.


 
I agree with part of that. I would get the grub control down in two weeks, and ask a local turf guy about pH, so you can think about putting down some slow-release calcium now. Then you'll be in good shape to do a weed spray in mid/late August (wait for grass to recover from the July heat and drought), and your aerate/re-seeding early September. You will be disappointed with how things look at the end of the season, but well-rewarded for that work in the spring. Pick up the schedule I listed above in the spring, and by year 2 you'll be in good shape.

Given your yard is not huge, I'd consider renting a slit seeder for a Saturday, and using that to put down the seed. Typical seed germination rates are doubled when you aerate, and 4x when you slit seed. Perennial grass seed is expensive, so you might as well get what you can out of it!



Bret Hart said:


> This is what we've been poking holes around here with lately. Best walk aerator in the business in my opinion.


 
Definitely the way to go on a smaller lawn.  I prefer tow-behind for more than an acre or two.


To answer your earlier question about rolling... I have yet to find the set of soil conditions where my wide 900 lb. lawn roller can make the ground flat, but my 2000 lb. tractor sitting on much narrower tires does not leave ruts. In short, lawn rollers don't work very well. If you mow a different direction each week with your riding mower, that will help flatten things out over a few years. Using the plug aerator once or twice per year also helps, slowly over the years. The only way I know to make a lawn FLAT fast is to grade it (toothed bucket or tiller) or a steam roller.


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## Bret Hart (May 9, 2013)

Definitely the way to go on a smaller lawn. I prefer tow-behind for more than an acre or two.



Agreed. Something like this is much better suited for large areas.


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## Ashful (May 9, 2013)

That'll get the job done!  Mine is much more tame... a simple tow-behind plugger with cement castings as ballast weight.  It's only 42" wide, which worked behind my garden tractor, but I'd like to find something closer to 60" for the CUT.

Always imagined the 3-point jobs must tear the hell out of things when swinging turns, which is why I stuck with a tow-behind.


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## Lighting Up (May 9, 2013)

You've got good advice here let me add ....

Never roll your lawn it crushs the young roots and compacts the soil. In the first picture the weed looks like creeping charlie if it has a blue flower it is that weed. It also looks like it's starting to yellow compared to the grass color, so looks like your spray is working. What I would do is add a extra ounce to what they recommend and hit those spots again. That weed patch is very Large and not showing a grass life so you may need round up there and then reseed. If your soil is compacted you may need to losen it up.  Check out Gardenweb forums web site has good info on lawns and weed problems.

Basic rule is....soil test first, kill weeds, add nutrients like organic matter (compost) and fertilizer to the soil based on your soil test and water, water, water....seed, seed, seed...do this and you will be complaining about having to cut it to much...lol


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## MasterMech (May 10, 2013)

Shocking thing might be that most home lawns don't really NEED aeration.  It's a good practice, and is indeed beneficial,  as long as you're not doing it with temps over 80 or while the grass is dormant in the off-season but other than some small areas, I doubt many home lawns get the foot/equipment traffic necessary to compact the soil to the point of actually requiring relief.

Joful is right on about the benefits of aerating before overseeding, but if I'm skipping the fall overseed, I don't feel bad about skipping the aeration too.


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## nate379 (May 10, 2013)

What are you poking holes for?



Bret Hart said:


> This is what we've been poking holes around here with lately. Best walk aerator in the business in my opinion.


 
I used a 12,000lb compactor on my yard last year.  Flattened it right out, smoother than a babies ass.


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## MasterMech (May 10, 2013)

Joful said:


> I prefer tow-behind for more than an acre or two.​


 Try doing 20 golf greens and then turning around and doing 9 fairways with one of those. Okay so maybe we had 3.  Oh yeah, and you walk backwards while aerating.


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## nate379 (May 10, 2013)

And the purpose of poking holes in your yard is what exactly?


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## bmblank (May 10, 2013)

Get oxygen to the roots. Sometimes the ground gets so packed and the root balls get so entwined that the plant basically suffocates.


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## Ashful (May 10, 2013)

nate379 said:


> And the purpose of poking holes in your yard is what exactly?


 
It's not so much just the poking of holes, but more the act of bringing dirt plugs up to the surface, where they are crushed by the mower and distributed on the surface. This is why a plug / core aerator is preferred to a tine / spike aerator (which really does just "poke holes"). The process serves more purposes than I can remember, but here's the primary:

1. Bring subsoil to surface, and organic matter into soil.
2. The crushed plugs increase soil contact to fresh seed, and improve germination rate by more than 200%.
3. Oxygen to roots (as already stated) / reduce soil compaction.
4. Helps level out bumps in lawn over the course of many years (soil is plastic, just gotta remove some material to move it around under the weight of a mower/tractor).

My primary goal in doing it is item 2, improving germination. I over-seed every fall, and the seed is very expensive. Core plugs are the best quick way to increase the germination rate. Anyone growing tall fescue, or any other non-creeping variety of grass, must over-seed regularly to keep up with damage repair. Some grasses will creep and self-heal divots and damage, but most of those grasses don't do well in my climate.


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## ironpony (May 10, 2013)

my suggestion would be similar to above suggestions.
only I would kill everything off with a non selective herbaside, till everything then seed and straw


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## Ashful (May 10, 2013)

ironpony said:


> my suggestion would be similar to above suggestions.
> only I would kill everything off with a non selective herbaside, till everything then seed and straw


 
This is almost never recommended.  Much easier to keep what you got, and turn it around.  Your yard would have to be pretty far gone (i.e. non-existent) to justify this approach.


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## MasterMech (May 10, 2013)

Not to mention tilling the soil will encourage the weed seeds to germinate more so than the grass.  If you had to nuke the lawn, then I'd slice seed, skip  the straw, and apply the water.  Water is key, the right amount at the right times, and water timers are your friend.


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## blujacket (May 10, 2013)

Here in Ohio core aeration is a necessity. We have clay soil that gets compacted and needs an aeration at least once a year, and better to have it done once in the Spring and once in the Fall.


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## smokinj (May 10, 2013)

Danno77 said:


> I grew up in the country. Yard meant everything that was green that you mowed. There was some grass in it.
> 
> My yard NOW (in town) looks like complete garbage. it's like 75% weeds or non-grass, and there are about 3 different kinds of grass making up the other 25%.
> 
> ...


 



Aerate (should be done 4 directions)  and seed with starter fert asap. (18-18-18) This will give your lawn the best chance. You probably need a post emergent about mid to late June. Fert every 6 weeks. Its just a building block so it will take all season. Oh I would bet your looking at 5500-6500 sq ft.


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## smokinj (May 10, 2013)

Danno77 said:


> I'd have to look at the bottle, but I measured it out very carefully. I think it was 2.5oz per gallon for 400 square feet. The problem is that the area I sprayed is larger than 400 square feet, but I didn't spray every inch. I targeted spots. Maybe I applied to little of the mix...


 

Blanket app that lawn! Call it 3 oz per 1000 qf! More moisture in the ground will call for a little more. Add dawn to your mix it will help it stick(Sticker bond) ! 2-4d at the farm store is the very best and cheaper. Lawn care company cant even use it anymore.


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## smokinj (May 10, 2013)

MasterMech said:


> Try doing 20 golf greens and then turning around and doing 9 fairways with one of those. Okay so maybe we had 3.  Oh yeah, and you walk backwards while aerating.




Now that's what a proper aeration looks like. We use to use the ryan 28's walk behinds (two directions) that where great unless there tree roots.


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## jharkin (May 10, 2013)

I'll be interested to follow your results. I've got similar problems and a really nasty creeping charlie problem in the back yard but I really dont want to get in the habit of spaying strong herbicides with young children playing out there.

I did the whole soil test, limed to the right pH, organic fert a couple times a year and over seeded a few times but its still a mess. All that work just seems to feed the weeds.


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## smokinj (May 11, 2013)

jharkin said:


> I'll be interested to follow your results. I've got similar problems and a really nasty creeping charlie problem in the back yard but I really dont want to get in the habit of spaying strong herbicides with young children playing out there.
> 
> I did the whole soil test, limed to the right pH, organic fert a couple times a year and over seeded a few times but its still a mess. All that work just seems to feed the weeds.


 

Creeping Charlie or ground ivy, Best way to kill it is when you see the flowers on it. Use weed control with a litte dawn. If you spray it any other time your just wasting your time.


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## gzecc (May 11, 2013)

jharkin said:


> I'll be interested to follow your results. I've got similar problems and a really nasty creeping charlie problem in the back yard but I really dont want to get in the habit of spaying strong herbicides with young children playing out there.
> 
> I did the whole soil test, limed to the right pH, organic fert a couple times a year and over seeded a few times but its still a mess. All that work just seems to feed the weeds.


 You do need to be careful of feeding the weeds. Attack the weeds separately.  Hold off on fertilizer and just use weed killer only for at least one season.


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## Lighting Up (May 11, 2013)

smokinj said:


> Creeping Charlie or ground ivy, Best way to kill it is when you see the flowers on it. Use weed control with a litte dawn. If you spray it any other time your just wasting your time.


 
Yeah you need to spray those weeds there just reseeding if you don't kill them and let the new seed have a chance. I've read about CC to spray in spring and I 've read about spraying it in the fall it is one tuff weed to kill.


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