# New Wood Stove Insert (cannot heat basement past 70) Enerzone Destination 2.3i



## mikedahammer (Mar 25, 2013)

I bought my house a little over a year ago (built in the 70's) and it had a timberline wood stove. The stove did not have a blower on it and was, so I thought, very inefficient as I could only heat the basement to about 70-72 degrees. I could only get those temps when the stove was piping hot and with a fan pointed at the wood stove to help reverberate the air to another fan blowing it out into the room.

I looked a long time at stoves and wanted something a little more modern but still could produce heat so I bought the enerzone destination 2.3i. It looks great but the stove does a very poor job heating. The stove itself is hot and blowing hot air but it does not seem to heat the basement but I cannot get a temp higer than 70 and that is even with a heat pump running at 70-72. I am stumped.

I broke the stove in slowly so I am just wondering if anyone has ever come across this or has ideas. I grew up with a wood stove as a kid and it used to heat our whole house.

The basement is finished if that makes a difference.  Also, the basement is about 1,200 square feet and the main room is probably 500 square feet where the stove is.  The stove was professionally installed and my chimney does have a liner.

It seems like the stove heats the masonry brick but not the house.

Nothing like pissing away $3K - 3.5K.


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## jeff_t (Mar 25, 2013)

Is there a block off plate installed at the top of the fireplace opening? If not, you are probably losing a lot of heat up the chimney. 

The basement is well insulated? What about the floor? Concrete sucks up a lot of heat.

Is your wood dry? By that, I mean split and stacked in the open for at least a year, two years or more for oak. Can you shut the primary air down and let the secondary combustion do it's thing? Running with the primary air wide open sends a lot of heat up the flue. Dry wood is key for operating a modern stove properly. 

It would be good to know what kind of temps you are getting, but I'm not sure where to put a thermometer or get a reading with an IR on that insert.

Welcome. Stick around, and lots of folks will help you figure this out.


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## mikedahammer (Mar 25, 2013)

There is a block off plate that is installed.  The flooring in that room is berber carpet with a carpet pad installed.  The wood is dry and seasoned. 

I just had my chimney guy come back out and he thinks the stove is just poorly designed with an underpowered blower.  The blower does not force air out like I would expect.  The blower make a lot of noise but you cannot feel the air more than 2 feet from the stove.  The chimney guy (Not the person who sold it to me) thinks the stove is just a POS.  I am scouring the web to see if anyone else has this stove and what their thoughts are.  I contacted the seller of the stove and they are calling the manufacturer. 

I am so frustrated right now and thanks for the welcome.


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## dougand3 (Mar 25, 2013)

The old smoke dragon and new efficient Enerzone both got room to only 70*. I think you're losing heat to surroundings. Is the masonry FP below grade? Heat may be going into planet Earth.


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## mikedahammer (Mar 25, 2013)

the fire place is below grade but not by much. Maybe two - three feet. The heat is definitely going straight out. The blower is not capturing the heat the redirecting into the room. It should not be this complicated and I would think that being an insert that the design would be such that the heat would be transferred out as much as possible and not up.

There is a blocking plate and a line that goes all the way up through the chimney. I know I am losing all the heat straight out because the brick last night was so hot downstairs that it made me uncomfortable that the brick was that warm and thought that it could be dangerous since it was extremely hot.

Osburn brands the same stove and it is called the Matrix.


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## simple.serf (Mar 25, 2013)

I have an Enerzone 2.9, their whole line is as well built as the Regency line. Our stove, (which is a freestanding unit with a blower) heats our 2500 sq. ft. house with very little difficulty, though our goal is to keep the house around 65.

Now, I cannot stress the importance of dry wood for this stove. As in 15% -20% moisture. As in drier than anything I have ever run through a smoke dragon. I cut, split, and stack our wood 2 years in advance now, with 3 years for oak.  Go to the grocery store or someplace that sells bundles of kiln dried campfire wood. Get 3 or 4 bundles of that and fire the stove with them. If you can heat your area with that, then the problem is your wood.

If that isn't the issue, then look at how you are firing the stove. Use an IR gun to get some numbers. Is the stove hot enough to get the secondaries to light off? Is the wood dry enough to get secondary light off? On our stove, we can't get the secondaries burning if the wood isn't dry enough.  I typically run ours with a 600 degree stovetop temp, and the area just above the door is usually 4-500 degrees. About midway through the burn, are you getting much smoke from the stack?

One final note, Our stove heats the best when it has been running for about 6 hours or more with about 2-3 inches of ash in the firebox. I just did the first cold start on ours since November (had to go out of town, the stove has been burning continuously since Nov.) and it's going to take me awhile to get the house warm again. Part of the room the stove is in is below grade, and it takes alot of fire to heat that room up. Play around with it and see. I was very disappointed with ours (and I have heated my whole life with wood stoves) until I learned it's idiosyncrasies. Now, I think it's great.


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## mikedahammer (Mar 25, 2013)

I am not sure I can get the reading you are asking for since I do not have an IR gun or wood moisture meter.  I will tell you that I can get the firebox full of red hot coals that will ignite any wet piece of wood instantly (even though the wood is dry).  I store the wood under a porch that is covered and the wood I am burning has been there since January of 2011 so it should be perfectly dry. 

Let me ask a more basic question:

If a blower was off for this stove or did not work then would the stove still heat the area?


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## mellow (Mar 25, 2013)

I would insulate that fireplace so you are not loosing heat to the masonry.


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## dougand3 (Mar 25, 2013)

mikedahammer said:


> If a blower was off for this stove or did not work then would the stove still heat the area?


Not as well because it would depend on radiant heat...which appears bad to begin with. 

This sounds like a purely aesthetic FP install originally...being below grade is a humongous heat sink. It may be the only way to get room to 80* is to move stove into room by 2-4' and insulate FP behind it. Is there much room on the sides and rear of stove within the FP? May be able to fashion a sheet metal "U"  with Roxul backing around insert to keep heat from masonry. I don't know this insert, so make sure this is safe re: temps.

I'd bet the best heat producer in this case would be a rear flue exit freestander on the hearth in front of FP. That may encroach on your room too much, tho.


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## madison (Mar 25, 2013)

Is the blower on full speed? ie is there a control that can vary the speed? Is it possible the blower is installed incorrectly or a panel loose that the blower is not passing the full amount of air over the stove? Or packing material etc blocking the air path?

Interesting to note, on the companies website on one page they list the blower as 130 cfm, and on the parts list it is listed at 120 cfm.

Quick check lists the PE summit blower @ 160 cfm.

Last suggestion, a quality dealer may swap a unit if you are willing to purchase another LARGER unit -- albeit for the difference in price. Not that you wanted to piss away some more $$.....


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## mikedahammer (Mar 25, 2013)

Pardon my ignorance on this matter so if anything does not sound correct I am sure it is me not portraying the right information.

I am sure the fireplace was aesthetic only and then someone put a wood stove in (before I bought the home) to help heat. Then I replaced to make it more efficient and have in fact made it less efficient.

To try and answer your questions the stove fits almost perfectly in the fireplace. I have maybe 2-3 inches on the sides and at the top It might be closer to 18 -24 inches to the block if i remember correctly. Nothing is touching the masonry except for all the bottom where the stove sits (obviously). I will remove the grills on the front and post the installation of it tonight when I get home. They may help.

I will also post a video of the stove in action with the blower on so you can see how weak it is.

The blower only has one speed. And the materials I looked at said the blower was 110 CFM. The installer and I looked at the space to make sure there was nothing blocking the air path and it does not appear to be any blockages.

I cannot fell the air being blown if I am more than 18 inches from the stove and that might an over statement.


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## begreen (Mar 25, 2013)

> Now, I cannot stress the importance of dry wood for this stove. As in 15% -20% moisture. As in drier than anything I have ever run through a smoke dragon.


 
^+1 for sure here.^ Poorly seasoned wood doesn't heat for crap.

Just to confirm - there is a block off plate *at the damper level* that is backed and sealed with roxul or kaowool insulation. Not trying to badger you, it's just that some installers call the top plate a block off plate.

If definitely yes, then the room is sucking out heat faster than it can be produced. The Enerzone is not a pos, it's just struggling to keep up with the heat loss of this room, probably through the massive brick wall behind it. It may not have been the best choice for this space though. It is largely a flush stove and it will need the blower all the time running.

Is there insulation behind the finished walls?

Also, how are you running the stove? Do you have a thermometer on it? If so where and what temp is it running at?


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## Dakotas Dad (Mar 25, 2013)

mikedahammer said:


> I am not sure I can get the reading you are asking for since I do not have an IR gun or wood moisture meter. I will tell you that I can get the firebox full of red hot coals that will ignite any wet piece of wood instantly (even though the wood is dry). I store the wood under a porch that is covered and the wood I am burning has been there since January of 2011 so it should be perfectly dry.
> 
> Let me ask a more basic question:
> 
> If a blower was off for this stove or did not work then would the stove still heat the area?


 
Don't take this wrong.. but quite possibly not dry at all. You need a MM to tell for sure, they can be bought for about $25 at Home Depot and the like. Oak, split to a fair size, and stacked in the open with good breeze and lots of sunshine needs 3 YEARS to really be ready.

Get a MM, re-split a split, measure. That will rule out the wood. But you say the basement is "finished".. is it insulated? I have seen a couple that weren't.

As far as heating without the blower on.. if won't satisfy you now, it sure won't without the blower.


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## BrotherBart (Mar 25, 2013)

With a flush insert most of the heat is gonna be from the blower air and radiant heat from the glass. With the size of that glass in the door if you are not getting hot standing in front of that insert you are not burning it hot enough. A frequent mistake made by people coming from one of the old stoves to a EPA stove. They see a firebox full of fire and think they are wasting wood. Not so. It is just making efficient heat.


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## oldspark (Mar 25, 2013)

Yea that old stove sticking out into the room was putting more heat into the room then a flush mount.


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## FyreBug (Mar 25, 2013)

I work for Enerzone. I believe there's a couple of users of Matrix and Destination on this board and they could jump in with their experience. 

It is a common misconception the more CFM the more heat. Actually the reverse is true. Each insert from any MFG is mated with a specific blower CFM to maximize efficiency. While more air flow will give you the impression it's blowing more heat in effect more cfm is cooling the firebox too fast thereby reducing 'peak' combustion temperature.

All inserts and blowers are designed to complement each other. It is a matter of achieving the greatest amount of heat transfer from the unit. The key is to design the insert so air can move and extract the greatest amount of heat without cooling the firebox and hindering the efficiency of the unit. If the blower velocity were to be increased, it would give the impression that the unit heats more. However, it would actually blow cooler air and reduce the unit's efficiency. A hot firebox will burn better and cleaner. A slower but hotter air displacement is therefore always preferable. The same principle applies to the heat sensor available on many models. It is better for the heat sensor to activate the blower later, when the unit is very hot, rather than activating it too early and blow cooler air when the unit is still completing its start-up phase.

 Finally, to maximize your heat transfer you may want to insulate around the insert itself since masonry/concrete is a heat sink and will absorb much of the heat before becoming warm enough to get that heat into your room. A block off plate is also a requirement so cold air does not spill inside the chimney around the unit.

Finally, inexpensive moisture meters are readily available at most box stores.


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## Jacklake2003 (Mar 25, 2013)

I understand your frustration and I'm sorry. Like previously mentioned, I think the main issue is that you're just loosing too much heat through the basement walls/floor (trying to heat the earth). I recently finished my basement and my in-laws stayed down there for a few weeks. Our basement is heated by a heat pump only and it would run almost continously to mainatin their 72 deg. setting (and I live in Georgia).

I would look at it this way. You're getting basically the same temperature in your basement using the new stove than you were the old stove, but you should be using less than half the ammount of wood. Keep experimenting with loading times/draft settings/etc. and I bet you'll be happy with the new stove soon enough.  Good luck!


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## oldspark (Mar 25, 2013)

I dont believe you ever answered the question is the basement insulated?


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## madison (Mar 25, 2013)

FyreBug,

With all due respect, in regards to the blowers:  If I read and interpret your statement correctly, that the BTU output is inversely related to blower CFM , I believe that this is inaccurate. Convective heat transfer requires flow.  At a certain "flow" the efficiency will decrease, but the BTU's would not decrease.  Low laminar flow, will extract less energy from the unit than high turbulent flow.

 I would possibly agree with efficiency of the process, but not total btu output.

- Also, the companies website (and the posters documentation) lists different CFM blowers for this insert, as well variable speed control, of which the poster states his is one speed 110 CFM...
http://enerzone-intl.com/product.aspx?CategoId=7&Id=419      "Ultra-quiet 130 CFM blower with variable speed control"
http://enerzone-intl.com/product.aspx?CategoId=7&Id=419&Page=spec    "Standard - 120 CFM"
http://parts.enerzone-intl.com/product.aspx?IdSite=2&Id=EB00006     "DOUBLE CAGE BLOWER 120CFM 115V"


Could it be possible that the wrong blower was inadvertently shipped with this unit?


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## mikedahammer (Mar 25, 2013)

I have attached a picture of the installation the best I could from inside. I have also attached coals from last nights burn (cold) and a link to two videos of the blower. Do not mind the mess we are getting ready to renovate our entire basement.

That is toilet paper I am holding and the air flow looks really weak to me.


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## Oldhippie (Mar 25, 2013)

mikedahammer said:


> There is a blocking plate and a line that goes all the way up through the chimney. I know I am losing all the heat straight out because the brick last night was so hot downstairs that it made me uncomfortable that the brick was that warm and thought that it could be dangerous since it was extremely hot.


 
Well, if the brick is extremely hot, we know that the heat is getting soaked up by the chimney and bricks and not radiated out into the room.

I think the guys point about wood is okay, but that's maybe not the issue given the heat you've got in those bricks.


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## mikedahammer (Mar 25, 2013)

Also if I missed someones question I am sorry but the basement is insulated and finished. Basically with the unit on I can heat the basement 5 degrees warmer than what it was. I leave my heatpump at 71 and the basement is always a little bit cooler than upstairs (one thermostat) and it stays around 64. I just can't believe that this is all the stove can do. Maybe the pics will help or the videos.

I do appreciate everyone's help!! I have asked the dealer to contact the manufacturer to see if anyone else has had an issue.

I also do not believe the wood is the only cause. I mean the other stove did just fine (Same wood) and it is not like the wood just sits in there and seeps liquid and smoke. It burns normal.  I am really hoping for user error or a bad blower but I do not have high hopes.


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## Oldhippie (Mar 25, 2013)

Mike, I don't have an insert so I have no direct knowledge of the issue.. but it seems to me it is pretty clear that the heat is being transferred to that large brick hearth and hence, not being radiated/pushed out into the room.

How big is that hearth? is it the entire wall? Somehow I think that hearth is acting like a big heat sink and just sucking up all the heat that stove can make. I think some others have tried to say the same in different words.

Do those bricks get really hot? ...and how big is that hearth? I think "Mellow" hit the nail on the head when he says "I would insulate that fireplace"... like in his picture.


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## mikedahammer (Mar 25, 2013)

I am going to send that to my installer and get his take on it.

The hearth does go all the way up the wall and outside it is probably 30 feet high (from basement to the first floor to the attic) outside.


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## FyreBug (Mar 25, 2013)

madison said:


> FyreBug,
> 
> With all due respect, in regards to the blowers: If I read and interpret your statement correctly, that the BTU output is inversely related to blower CFM , I believe that this is inaccurate. Convective heat transfer requires flow. At a certain "flow" the efficiency will decrease, but the BTU's would not decrease. Low laminar flow, will extract less energy from the unit than high turbulent flow.
> 
> ...


 
I am not an engineer. However, I know our guys. They have years of experience and sits on many boards (EPA, CSA, ASTM, UL etc...) so they are not throwing spaghetti at the wall here.... Being engineers they are, if you want a lengthy and totally incomprehensible answer from them I can get it...  But suffice it to say they have the tests to back them up. And not just them... other MFG's will tell you the same thing. You tune your CFM to your unit.

BTW, the EPA certification is with the blower. If we change the blower the certification and efficiencies testing must be re-done from scratch. That's why it's important to match your blower to your unit and a fair bit of testing goes first into it.

Good point you raise about the marketing info for the CFM. I'll bring it up to our marketing's attention. Thanks for pointing it out.

I watched the video's and cant see anything wrong with the cfm output using the toilet paper.

Think about it for all of you who use the little whirly fans on top of your stoves. Many posts about those here with most people happy with what they do. However, do you feel a strong draft coming from those things? Yet, they still work dont they?


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## Oldhippie (Mar 25, 2013)

mikedahammer said:


> The hearth does go all the way up the wall and outside it is probably 30 feet high (from basement to the first floor to the attic) outside


 
I like Mellow's solution in his pic. Maybe he can pop back in and tell us how that worked out for him? I think you've got one massive heat sink there and it it is the path of least resistance for all of the heat. You put your hand on those bricks and they are hot. There's the proof right there. The problem is they act as poor radiators to push air out into the room.

The old stove you had protruded further into the room, if only a few inches, so it probably had the exact same problem, but had the benefit of a bit more radiation into the room.

The blower fans in the new stove aren't anything to write home about, but they should at least get the heat out into the rooms natural air currents.


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## lopiliberty (Mar 25, 2013)

mikedahammer said:


> It burns normal. I am really hoping for user error or a bad blower but I do not have high hopes.​


 Could you possibly post a video of it burning?


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## mikedahammer (Mar 25, 2013)

lopiliberty said:


> Could you possibly post a video of it burning?


 
I can definitely do that but it might not be for a few days.  I may not have time tonight since I work late hours.


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## madison (Mar 25, 2013)

FyreBug said:


> I am not an engineer. However, I know our guys. They have years of experience and sits on many boards (EPA, CSA, ASTM, UL etc...) so they are not throwing spaghetti at the wall here.... Being engineers they are, if you want a lengthy and totally incomprehensible answer from them I can get it...  But suffice it to say they have the tests to back them up. And not just them... other MFG's will tell you the same thing. You tune your CFM to your unit.
> 
> BTW, the EPA certification is with the blower. If we change the blower the certification and efficiencies testing must be re-done from scratch. That's why it's important to match your blower to your unit and a fair bit of testing goes first into it.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for the reply, but not totally convinced.  And we may be arguing two different issues.

I agree that the blower may be "tuned" and tested, for efficiency and testing.  But I disagree that the amount of heat removed (BTU's  of heat) from a radiator (stove) decreases as the CFM of the blower increases.

Think of it this way, ,,,  You live in Ontario, when you get in your vehicle to drive to work on a cold January morning, after the engine warms up, do you leave the blower off, or on low?  If your wife says she's cold, and you turn the car heater blower DOWN and tell her that the car will get warmer faster that way , what will happen next?

Nonetheless, the 110 CFM one speed blower more than likely does not match what the "engineers" designed and tested for this unit - and what the company posts on its advertising materials.


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## FyreBug (Mar 25, 2013)

I understand. I think we're talking about 2 different things. More air velocity will 'strip' more BTU from the unit. However, the combustion chamber is at its most efficient at a certain temperature. If you increase velocity you will cool down the unit too fast to maintain optimum peak efficiencies. 

The same principles applies to furnaces. Improper static pressure in the plenum will allow the air to either flow too fast or too slow past the heat exchanger. Either way is not ideal. The system must be 'tuned' or balanced for optimum heat transfer. That's why furnaces with variable speed DC motors often have the best efficiencies since they self regulate depending on the temps in the plenum. 

Also, from most consumers point of view they equate heat with air velocity. Consumers get impressed with Blowers at 230CFM while in practical terms running these at full speed might not get the most out of their units.


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## weatherguy (Mar 26, 2013)

Your blower seems fine, mine blows about the same, as has been stated several times in this thread the problem is probably the heat sink theory, which can easily be fixed or wood, which can also easily be fixed. Just because it burned great in your other stove doesnt mean its ok for this stove, as someone mentioned this stove likes drier wood, I think he said 15%, you may find insulating behind the fireplace and above and letting your wood dry an extra year will solve all your problems.


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## mikedahammer (Mar 26, 2013)

Here is video of my stove from the start up, mid way, and right before I closed it off for the night. There were less coals in there tonight than typical since the video was only over a 2 hour period and it was from a cold start. Best I could do last night with that time window.



Next week I am having the chimney insulated so only time will tell.  I hope that solves all the heat loss issue.


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## oldspark (Mar 26, 2013)

"Think about it for all of you who use the little whirly fans on top of your stoves. Many posts about those here with most people happy with what they do. However, do you feel a strong draft coming from those things? Yet, they still work dont they? "
 I think there are more posts from people who did not like them and sent them back.


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## FyreBug (Mar 26, 2013)

mikedahammer said:


> Here is video of my stove from the start up, mid way, and right before I closed it off for the night. There were less coals in there tonight than typical since the video was only over a 2 hour period and it was from a cold start. Best I could do last night with that time window.


 
Based on the video, your start up procedure seems fine. But it looks as if you could put a lot more wood in there.


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## FyreBug (Mar 26, 2013)

oldspark said:


> I think there are more posts from people who did not like them and sent them back.


 
I know the people at Caframo who manufacture those things. I too was skeptical but I was shown an independent lab test along with IR camera video of before and after using them. And they work! because air turbulence albeit small velocity help distribute heat.

However... the average consumers will not be satisfied unless it feels as if they are driving down the freeway in a convertible!


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## etiger2007 (Mar 26, 2013)

FyreBug said:


> Based on the video, your start up procedure seems fine. But it looks as if you could put a lot more wood in there.


 
Bert how long does SBI think one should go in between re-loads with that stove?


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## FyreBug (Mar 26, 2013)

etiger2007 said:


> Bert how long does SBI think one should go in between re-loads with that stove?


Not particularly a SBI or any particular MFG issue. Typically fire start up procedure to produce coals and get the firebox warmed up then load up the stove and let it burn down to a bed of coal before re-loading.


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## etiger2007 (Mar 26, 2013)

mikedahammer said:


> Here is video of my stove from the start up, mid way, and right before I closed it off for the night. There were less coals in there tonight than typical since the video was only over a 2 hour period and it was from a cold start. Best I could do last night with that time window.
> 
> 
> 
> Next week I am having the chimney insulated so only time will tell. I hope that solves all the heat loss issue.




Just curious how are you closing the air down on your stove to get a longer burn? I have an Osburn 2000 insert and looking at how charred the wood looks and with how active your flames are could you be sending the heat right up the stack?   Just to add, when I close mine down I generally close it in 1/4 increments, when Im done adjusting the air its about 10% open.


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## mikedahammer (Mar 26, 2013)

etiger2007 said:


> Just curious how are you closing the air down on your stove to get a longer burn? I have an Osburn 2000 insert and looking at how charred the wood looks and with how active your flames are could you be sending the heat right up the stack? Just to add, when I close mine down I generally close it in 1/4 increments, when Im done adjusting the air its about 10% open.


 

I do about the same as you with the dampener (adjust it down slowly).  I only had a two hour window last night so I was more aggressive with the burn.  Normally I do not have those flames when I knock the dampener back.  I just wanted to get it stoked up as quickly as possible for the video.  Also, I know I am sending all the heat out the flu that is why I am trying to figure it out.  My installer is going to be putting in the insulation and lowering the block off plate on Wednesday.  Hopefully that is all that is needed.


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## PLAYS WITH FIRE (Mar 26, 2013)

Buy a IR gun from HD. Lowes or HF and also a magnetic thermo. It looks to be difficult to place the thermo but this will give a ball park if you are burning hot enough. I got a Ryobi IR from Home Depot for 39 bux or something. I used it to find the hottest spot to place the thermo. For me because my insert is flush for the moment and very similar situation to yours I burn with the top plate off like you showed in the video. However my blower will make the toilet paper curl back on itself.

And as othes have said, stuff that stove full to get things warmed up!

My process:
1.load full with alot of flames

2.damper down a little till flames are lazy

3.the fire catches up with alot of flames and some secondary action

4.damper down a bit till lazy and more secondary action

5.damper about closed lazy to little flame on the wood and crazy secondary action at about 550 degree to 650 degrees.

7. let it go till 200-300 degrees and repeat

All in all from a cold start it takes about 20-45 minutes


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## Woody Stover (Mar 26, 2013)

PLAYS WITH FIRE said:


> 2.damper down a little till flames are lazy
> 
> 3.the fire catches up with alot of flames and some secondary action
> 
> 4.damper down a bit till lazy and more secondary action


Maybe just because he was rushing the fire for the video and had big flame in the box, but I don't see much secondary action off the burn tubes there...


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## mikedahammer (Mar 26, 2013)

Can someone send me a link to the secondary action from the burn tubes.  Not sure what that means or should look like.....googled it....



If that is what it should do then I am pretty sure i have never seen that in my stove (not yet at least).


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## Ansky (Mar 26, 2013)

mikedahammer said:


> Can someone send me a link to the secondary action from the burn tubes.  Not sure what that means or should look like.....googled it....
> 
> If that is what it should do then I am pretty sure i have never seen that in my stove (not yet at least).



Wow.  That's pretty cool.  I've only gotten those secondary burns once in a while from my stove.  And thats when the stove is really hot and i have a lot of coals.  but even when i do get them, they dont look like that.  Mine only come from the back tube.  Never from the front tube.   I think my problem is wood that isn't dry enough.

That's pretty cool, though.  Now I have something to work towards.


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## jeff_t (Mar 26, 2013)

If you aren't getting any secondary action at the top of the firebox, you should definitely consider your fuel supply. As a hot fire is established with the primary air open, you should be cutting the primary air back. Secondary combustion air will then be drawn in thru the tubes in the top, thru a different inlet than the primary air. That secondary air is preheated, and mixes with the superheated gasses at the top of the firebox. It should look like little jets of flame coming out if those holes, not unlike a gas grill.

Wood that isn't sufficiently dry won't burn at a temperature hot enough to sustain that secondary combustion without more primary air. Wood that is tightly stacked on a covered porch may not be as dry as you think.

Another thought is to check the baffle above the burn tubes. I'm not sure how the Enerzone is, but on other stoves that baffle can get knocked out of position and allow gasses to go straight up the flue, instead of staying in the firebox longer to get completely burned.


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## PLAYS WITH FIRE (Mar 26, 2013)

Yes that's the ticket! But really knowing what temps you are at are very important and number one is wood.




mikedahammer said:


> Can someone send me a link to the secondary action from the burn tubes. Not sure what that means or should look like.....googled it....
> 
> 
> 
> If that is what it should do then I am pretty sure i have never seen that in my stove (not yet at least).


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## lopiliberty (Mar 26, 2013)

mikedahammer said:


> Can someone send me a link to the secondary action from the burn tubes. Not sure what that means or should look like.....googled it....
> 
> If that is what it should do then I am pretty sure i have never seen that in my stove (not yet at least).


Yes it should look like this or pretty close to it. That is where 90 percent of your heat comes from.


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## lopiliberty (Mar 26, 2013)

Try loading it pretty full but leave about 2 inches from the wood to the air tubes get is going good start cutting back the air in stages and see what happens.  It there is still little or no secondary action then it is like already stated it has to be the wood


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## mellow (Mar 26, 2013)

The link in my signature shows how I did mine:   https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/finally-got-around-to-insulating-my-fireplace.75755/

I did mine because I have an external masonry fireplace and was loosing heat to the outside,   it works great.  I would only recommend using Roxul.


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## Ram 1500 with an axe... (Mar 26, 2013)

mikedahammer said:


> I bought my house a little over a year ago (built in the 70's) and it had a timberline wood stove. The stove did not have a blower on it and was, so I thought, very inefficient as I could only heat the basement to about 70-72 degrees. I could only get those temps when the stove was piping hot and with a fan pointed at the wood stove to help reverberate the air to another fan blowing it out into the room.
> 
> I looked a long time at stoves and wanted something a little more modern but still could produce heat so I bought the enerzone destination 2.3i. It looks great but the stove does a very poor job heating. The stove itself is hot and blowing hot air but it does not seem to heat the basement but I cannot get a temp higer than 70 and that is even with a heat pump running at 70-72. I am stumped.
> 
> ...



Back to original topic. You may need to cheat till you. Figure it out
I have the same problem with my new montpelier insert. I try to take a cold room from 59 to 70 something and cannot achieve it. I only can get to 68 on a cold windy day in an older style home with lots of windows. I know my issues but a temporary fix or cheat for me is to use my heat to get the room to 65 and then let the insert take over. I then can easily get up to 76 .

I recommend to you that you use 2 space heaters to warm the basement up a bit then keep the insert stoked and burning. The temporary supplemental heat really makes a big difference for me. I hate to do it but it works. I'm still working on my issues to try and correct my problem.


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## Ansky (Mar 26, 2013)

mellow said:


> The link in my signature shows how I did mine:   https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/finally-got-around-to-insulating-my-fireplace.75755/
> 
> I did mine because I have an external masonry fireplace and was loosing heat to the outside,   it works great.  I would only recommend using Roxul.



Shouldn't this only be done when you have enough room between your stove and the brick?  I built my block off plate a few weeks ago and I have a lot of Roxul leftover, but I don't have a lot of room between the brick and the insert.  I think I read on this forum somewhere that the Roxul shouldn't touch the insert because you'd be heating the unit more than it was intended to be heated and may damage it.  

I have an outside chimney too, and and in don't want to lose heat to the outside, but I also don't want to damage the unit either.


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## oldspark (Mar 26, 2013)

FyreBug said:


> I know the people at Caframo who manufacture those things. I too was skeptical but I was shown an independent lab test along with IR camera video of before and after using them. And they work! because air turbulence albeit small velocity help distribute heat.
> 
> However... the average consumers will not be satisfied unless it feels as if they are driving down the freeway in a convertible!


 Well I can tell you this much my old wood burner had a huge fan on it compared to my summit and it moved air through the house much better than the runt fan on the summit.


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## Dakotas Dad (Mar 26, 2013)

Here is our old stove going over into secodary burn.. I just shot it as I was sitting there.. so it ain't great video.. and it would have been good to be another 10-20 seconds.. but what you see in the last 10 seconds is what it would do for a couple hours while it burned down. Also note my firebox was full.

secondaries...

If you can't get something like that going..


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## mellow (Mar 26, 2013)

Ansky said:


> I think I read on this forum somewhere that the Roxul shouldn't touch the insert because you'd be heating the unit more than it was intended to be heated and may damage it.


 
SBI approved my use of Roxul, you would need to check with your insert manufacturer, the OP's unit is made by SBI so hence why I recommended it.

With my Appalachian that I now have I could not fit Roxul on the sides so I now only have it on the back and top.


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## DexterDay (Mar 26, 2013)

More wood is needed for more heat, also the air is open to much, and with no secondary burning your fuel is very suspect.

To much primary air will have less secondary action, to cool of firebox will have less secondary action and wet wood will have no secondary burning either. 

Is the stack smoking outside?t

Here is a vid of my 30 w/ secondary burn. Flames should he good and lazy.


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## weatherguy (Mar 26, 2013)

If your stove is sensitive than most to wet wood (as the other guy with the same stove stated) the only way to know if your wood is dry enough is to get a moisture meter, another thing you could try in the meantime is go to the supermarket and but a couple packages of wood, enough for one good load, if that burns hot with secondaries, you know what the problem is, still wouldnt hurt to do the othert things your doing if it is the wood.


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## oldspark (Mar 26, 2013)

If the wood is wet hes gonna know it, wont start worth a crap and it will sizzle.


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## mikedahammer (Mar 26, 2013)

We'll see what happens when I get it insulated and bring the blocking plate down (next Wednesday).  I feel comfortable about the wood being dry enough as I can get the stove piping hot. I will update when the stove get adjusted next week.  Thank you for all the replies and input.  I am going to burn the stove whether or not it is cold outside just to see.


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## BrotherBart (Mar 26, 2013)

All of the insulating and block off plate moving in the world won't help until you start loading and burning that stove for max heat and efficiency. And what I see in that video ain't it. Piping hot or not.

Scroll down to the last video on this page and watch Efficient Wood Stove Operation. It was the starting place for many of the burners here.

http://woodheat.org/wood-heat-videos.html


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## Jon1270 (Mar 27, 2013)

I have the very similar Matrix insert, and my experience this year has been much like the OP's. I'm on a first-year burner's iffy wood supply, but confident that's not the problem. I have a Fluke IR gun to check stovetop temps through the outlet at the top, and even when it's at 700F and the radiant heat through the glass door is so intense as to be uncomfortable to be close to, the stove still needs occasional help from the gas furnace to heat my ~1450 square foot colonial to even tolerable temperatures. It can never get things really cozy unless ambient temperatures are already fairly high.

The stove burns really well. I have no trouble getting the secondaries going, and had several nice overnight burns on the best of the wood I had for the season. Obviously the heat is being liberated from the wood, so the question becomes, where is it going? Some is making it into the room, but the rest must be either going up the chimney or escaping out the back and being absorbed into the fireplace. I suspect it's mostly the latter. That might not be such a problem with an interior chimney, but with an exterior wall and/or below grade fireplace I think insulating the rear is basically mandatory with this unit because the vast majority of the surface area is behind the surround, and there's nothing but a thin, highly conductive jacket of sheet steel to keep heat in the path of the blower. I'll be pulling mine out and insulating thoroughly before next season.


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## Jon1270 (Mar 27, 2013)

I have a fire going now, so I can offer a bit of actual data to flesh out my theorizing above.  Stovetop temperature a couple of inches inside the outlet is currently 591F.  The sheet metal jacket directly above is at 477F.  I don't have a wrench handy to remove the top of the surround and get a measurement on the outside surface of the jacket, but since it's just a thin piece of steel I think it's a good bet that it would be very near 477F too.  That high temperature isn't an indicator of how much heat *is* being lost into the surrounding fireplace, but I think it is an indicator of how much heat *could* be lost there, given cooler surrounding materials (earth, masonry, air) to absorb it.


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## mikedahammer (Apr 4, 2013)

Hey Jon,  I can feel your pain.  I just had my stove insulated and the block off plate lowered and it did improve the heat in my basement but not substantially. 

The Enerzone stove in my opinion is fair.  It definitely could not heat 2000 square feet even under the most optimal settings.  I feel like my main problem is that the heat is not getting out far enough in the room to be incorporated into the natural air flow of the house.  The blower air can only be felt about a max of 18 inches from the stove.  The ceiling and floor are about 80 - 82 degrees right around the stove but once you go 3 or more feet from the wall I cannot get temperatures above 72-73 even when my firebox is roaring with coals. 

I am fairly confident that the blower is inadequate in my application and it could be that my basement just does not have good circulation.  I feel that if more air was forced out in the room it would definitely heat my space better.

Does anyone know if there is a replacement blower that I can purchase that has more cfm that fits the stock housing?


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## Dave A. (Apr 4, 2013)

Above my insert, I usually keep a small fan blowing at mantel height (actually sitting on the mantel) to get that hot air that settles at the ceiling around the stove circulating -- helps a bit, makes it a little less uncomfortable around the stove when it's real hot -- I don't have ceiling fans or they would work prolly just as well if not better.

Actually I used the fan(s) more with my Century insert which didn't have as good a blower system as my new Summit.  That was one of my main complaints about the blower on the Century -- couldn't feel it blowing very far away from the front.


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## Dave A. (Apr 4, 2013)

Jon1270 said:


> I have a fire going now, so I can offer a bit of actual data to flesh out my theorizing above. Stovetop temperature a couple of inches inside the outlet is currently 591F. The sheet metal jacket directly above is at 477F. I don't have a wrench handy to remove the top of the surround and get a measurement on the outside surface of the jacket, but since it's just a thin piece of steel I think it's a good bet that it would be very near 477F too. That high temperature isn't an indicator of how much heat *is* being lost into the surrounding fireplace, but I think it is an indicator of how much heat *could* be lost there, given cooler surrounding materials (earth, masonry, air) to absorb it.


 
Been thinking about that myself. The hot top of the outer sheet metal jacket of my Summit insert. Wondering if it would hurt to put a layer of Roxul insulation on that and thereby get more of that heat back into the main heat duct and sent out into the house rather than heating the top of the fireplace cavity.

Am just not sure about possible negative effects to the Summit insert -- the inside of that top can get very hot 400 or so measured with my IR gun.


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## mikedahammer (Apr 4, 2013)

Thanks for that post Dave.  I am going to try a bunch of fans tonight and see if it circulates better and if the no air flow is my issue.  I am trying to avoid having to put fans everywhere as that seems impractical and it can be quite loud and annoying. 

I still cannot get the temps I was looking for and the temps I have said I am getting are with a heat pump set at 72 and there is vent cut in six feet from the stove.  The thermostat is upstairs and the basement is usually 5 - 10 degrees cooler depending on the day so if the upstairs says 72 the downstairs may be 65 - 67 with no wood stove burning.

I am really torn with this stove and maybe my expectations were too high.  I love how efficient the firebox is as it keeps heat really well and does not burn through wood like my old stove did.  Now I just have to figure out why I can't transfer it out. I am sure people think I am crazy but I would think the stove would roast me out of basement if I had it running nonstop with a firebox 500+ degrees.  Some have said the wood sucks, your burning it wrong, but come on -- its just a wood stove.  You have a box that holds fire and produces heat and a blower which blows hot air so as long as you have heat in the firebox and the blower is on it should produce results that I feel would be great than I am getting.  It may not be the most efficient way to burn wood and if you could see it in person there would be no denial that the heat is being poorly transferred out of the box.

I think a this point I need to either accept it as is or look for an alternative and work with the manufacturer and/or reseller.  I have invested more time/money in this than it is worth at this point and wish I could undo.  I wish I knew someone else you had the same or similar stove and could see theirs in action.


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## fox9988 (Apr 4, 2013)

As FyreBug commented about the video, there isn't much wood in the firebox. It looks like it would hold three times as much. 3x the wood = 3x the heat.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 4, 2013)

Gee im glad i dont have an insert in my basement. My free standing stove makes the basement room its in about 95 deg and the rest of the basement about 85 WHole floor is 1000SF and not an ounce of insulation anywhere. Thats without any other source of heat.


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## DexterDay (Apr 4, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Gee im glad i dont have an insert in my basement. My free standing stove makes the basement room its in about 95 deg and the rest of the basement about 85 WHole floor is 1000SF and not an ounce of insulation anywhere. Thats without any other source of heat.



Mines about 800 sq ft and No insulation and I can get to 80°-90° easily. 

Yeah. Its just a wood stove. But Wood and Air matter a LOT. Wet wood and wide open air, will yield terrible results. 



mikedahammer said:


> ............. Some have said the wood sucks, your burning it wrong, but come on -- its just a wood stove.  You have a box that holds fire and produces heat and a blower which blows hot air so as long as you have heat in the firebox and the blower is on it should produce results that I feel would be great than I am getting.


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## PLAYS WITH FIRE (Apr 4, 2013)

Before I turned a pal of mine onto an epa insert he had a slammer install that had no blower. While it did ok in the living room about 11x20 or something, there no heat anywhere else. He had cylinder fan he used in is shop that he used to blow exhaust under the garage door. It was small but powerful and he used it close, maybe a few inches away, to blow the air at the stove. It was blowing where the blower should've been and would come out the top. That changed things drastically! So in my opinion I would try something like that..I know there is a blower but it doesn't seem to move the air. And load her up




DexterDay said:


> Mines about 800 sq ft and No insulation and I can get to 80°-90° easily.
> 
> Yeah. Its just a wood stove. But Wood and Air matter a LOT. Wet wood and wide open air, will yield terrible results.


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## mikedahammer (Apr 4, 2013)

Just for the nay sayers about the wood and not enough in there (that video was me for the first hour of burn just so people could see it is in no way indicative of what the norm for how my stove always looks). I typical have a couple of inches of deep worth of red coals in the entire stove and firebox cannot get any hotter -- do not base it on the video or pictures.

The firebox is so hot and full of coals I have trouble putting a round log and getting it situated before it ignites. Also since the coals are higher than the lip and my firebox is more east west than north south the log want to roll out. The wood is not split right for this stove but they are great what I call night time burners.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 4, 2013)

Fist thing you need is heat pouring off the stove like crazy, then you need to get it where you want it. If i didnt use  several strong fans  id have a 110 Deg basement stove room and next floor above would be 65. SInce im also heating a third floor i really need those fans.


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## PLAYS WITH FIRE (Apr 4, 2013)

This is exactly what he used:

http://www.harborfreight.com/portable-blower-with-variable-speed-dial-93231.html


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 4, 2013)

PLAYS WITH FIRE said:


> This is exactly what he used:
> 
> http://www.harborfreight.com/portable-blower-with-variable-speed-dial-93231.html


I use 2 of  the LASKO MAX fans, looks like about 2x the size of this Harbor freight model. Cost $65-90  low price from sams club.  One behind the stove blowing air about 40 Ft to the other side of the basement,and one blowing
warm basement air up the the next floor. In addition my free standing stove has a built in blower that blows heat out the front.


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## mikedahammer (Apr 4, 2013)

How loud are those things?


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## PLAYS WITH FIRE (Apr 4, 2013)

Probably as loud as bigger box fan on high maybe less, it is infinitely variable so that will help. But they small and blow real strong!


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 4, 2013)

mikedahammer said:


> How loud are those things?


I cant hear em if thats what you mean. Not sure about the harbor freight ones,dont own one.


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## Dave A. (Apr 5, 2013)

Looking back at other posts in the thread, I don't think just adding a fan or two is going to solve the problem for you by itself. And BTW small fans (the right ones) are often quieter than the blower on a stove), the ones I use are -- big box fans can be noisy, but efficient small table fans are often pretty quiet especially when run on low just to move the air.

But am still questioning whether you're getting it as hot as possible. You talk about lots of hot coals, and coals are at the latter (cooler) stages of the burn, or used to light off the wood in a new fire.   If and when you've determined that a really large fire with a fully loaded firebox still can't get the heat you want then, you probably need something larger. If the dealer made the recommendation of the Enerzone unit based on the size of your house, etc., and you relied on his recommendation, you might have some recourse (at least in a moral sense if he's a decent guy) to go back to him and have him try to make things right for you. Worth a try anyway. And he might have some ideas himself as to what you can do.

My situation was the first year I was afraid to really fill up the firebox and get it real hot. There were all these warning about over firing. But eventually I realized that the only way to get the house warm was to keep the stove in the 500 + range or even higher if possible for a few hours. You need to know the temp of the stove either with a magnetic thermometer or an IR gun and see how hot your getting it and how long you can keep it there. That's my experience fwiw, anyway.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 5, 2013)

I agree with Dave A.  THe room the stove is in should be driving you out. Your saying that you cant even raise the room temp 5 Deg?  That stove just aint puttin out any heat.


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## begreen (Apr 5, 2013)

Sounds more like the stove is heating the outdoors. Put some insulation behind it to isolate it from the masonry as a first step. Put in a proper block-off plate and make sure there are no gaps around the liner at the block off plate. Try that for a bit before changing the fans.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 5, 2013)

begreen said:


> Sounds more like the stove is heating the outdoors. Put some insulation behind it to isolate it from the masonry as a first step. Put in a proper block-off plate and make sure there are no gaps around the liner at the block off plate. Try that for a bit before changing the fans.


If he cant even raise the interior temp more than 5 Deg ,he needs more drastic measures. I think id go for a good EPA free standing stove.IF that 2.3 satands for interior firebox cap. the stove is too small for starters.I know he laid out a lot of dough already but i be surprised to see that situation getting much better.


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## hickoryhoarder (Apr 5, 2013)

Nice discussion. The chimney guy's view is worth something, because he's been right there. From way over here, my take is that the room has a lot of heat loss, although it's mind boggling that it would only go up five degrees. I would first turn to the dealer who sold you the stove. If the stove is not installed right (for adequate heating) or is poorly manufactured, that's on him. You paid $3000-5000 not for a hunk of metal, but a nice way of getting good comfort, and an ideal install.

As for heat loss, that's on the homeowner, though I would hope an installer would say something if he thought your room would lose a lot of the heat.


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## Ram 1500 with an axe... (Apr 5, 2013)

I have the montpelier, it is only a medium insert, I have been experimenting and experimenting, wood, time, temperature indoors and outdoors, type of load, etc. I've recently been burning atleast 7 year old splits along with my dry wood. In a. Nutshell, you are not burning highly seasoned wood and enough wood. And burning them long enough. That needs to be the recipe to get heat out. You are under firing, just seeing a roaring fire is not enough, you must stoke the insert until you hear pings. I went from 68 to 76 tonite, without the fan on in about an hour and a half. You need to try to over fire the box... That's what I did to achieve nice heat in the room. I'm just sayin, that's all.... Also when stoked, I opened the door and heat rushed out to help heat the room up. These are only suggestions and things I have tried that have helped the same things we are both going through


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## boxerdogheidi (Apr 10, 2013)

Just took a look at your video of your blower.  I know a lot of people say the fans aren't that important.  But I had to replace my previous insert because the fans broke and I couldn't get replacements.  I have a 150 year old house without insulation and an insert without blowers was useless.  Today it's 42 degrees outside, my stove is running just under 250 degrees, and my thermometer is on the outside wall 15 feet away and reads 75 degrees.  The other side of my center hall plan house is comfortable too although I don't have a thermometer there to tell you what the temp is.  When it's really cold outside (-20) I run an old stove in the other half of the house (because there's a hallway with 2 walls separating it from the room with the insert) and I have a large floor model fan behind that stove.  I can tell you from experience that the fan makes a big difference.


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## Jags (Apr 10, 2013)

Ram 1500 with an axe... said:


> You need to try to over fire the box... That's what I did to achieve nice heat in the room. I'm just sayin, that's all...


 
Intentionally over firing the unit is not recommended.  It poses a safety issue along with the potential of ruining a perfectly good heater.  Operate the unit as it was intended. Don't try to make it do something it can't.


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## Ram 1500 with an axe... (Apr 10, 2013)

Jags said:


> Intentionally over firing the unit is not recommended.  It poses a safety issue along with the potential of ruining a perfectly good heater.  Operate the unit as it was intended. Don't try to make it do something it can't.


That was meant because I always under fire the box. By me stating to try and over fire, I actually meant to bring to proper heating temperature to achieve the  temperature he wanted. In other words, I didn't think he was heating hot enough, just like I wasn't. Till I tried to over heat and then finally achieving great results... Sorry or the confusion


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 10, 2013)

Does anyone know what the difference in BTU output   is between an insert and the same model /size  free standing stove. Plus what you can actually use as in BTUs into the room. Id bet its considerable.


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## Jags (Apr 11, 2013)

Ram 1500 with an axe... said:


> That was meant because I always under fire the box. By me stating to try and over fire, I actually meant to bring to proper heating temperature to achieve the temperature he wanted. In other words, I didn't think he was heating hot enough, just like I wasn't. Till I tried to over heat and then finally achieving great results... Sorry or the confusion


 
Thank you for the clarification.


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