# Windhager BioWIN260 with wood pellet feed system and 3 Ton hopper (Waldo county - Maine)



## PassionForFire&Water (Dec 15, 2012)

One of our customers started the installation of a Windhager BioWIN260 (88,000 BTU/hr) with bulk wood pellet feed. He made a wooden pellet hopper that holds around 3 tons.
Will post more pictures when I get them.


----------



## BoilerMan (Dec 15, 2012)

Nice looking install!  I like his 3 ton bin, very nice looking fabrication.

TS


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Dec 16, 2012)

I'm still waiting to receive more pictures on the actual bulk pellet hopper hook-up.
I attached an animation on the working concepts of the BioWIN pellet boiler.





Disclosure: I'm the north american importer for Windhager


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Dec 31, 2012)

Some pictures of the flexible hose to pellet bin installation


----------



## BoilerMan (Dec 31, 2012)

The pnumatic feed system is really something.  I was at a jobsite today where they were building an 8ton hopper for a MeEnergy system.

TS


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Jan 2, 2013)

A look inside the DIY pellet hopper


----------



## velvetfoot (Jan 4, 2013)

How would support be for this unit?


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Jan 4, 2013)

velvetfoot said:


> How would support be for this unit?


 
All spare parts are stocked and readily availalbe from the Billerica-MA warehouse: flexible hoses, pellet augers, doors, sidepanels, stickers, cooling fins, PCB-boards, ... .
System layout/integration is provided at minimal cost.
DIY wooden hopper designs are available (per PE)
Commissioning of system by factory rep is possible


----------



## 711mhw (Jan 4, 2013)

Would you explain the pellet bin to boiler part a little? Does it vacuum to a little storage on the boiler? automatically, 2 lines? Filling the hopper? That's quite a build on that hopper. thanks


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Jan 5, 2013)

711mhw said:


> Would you explain the pellet bin to boiler part a little? Does it vacuum to a little storage on the boiler? automatically, 2 lines? Filling the hopper? That's quite a build on that hopper. thanks


 
Below you can find some pictures of the Windhager BioWIN pellets feeding system. I will take some more of the vacuum system itself later today. I need to open a new unit to make some decent pictures
1 is the vac turbine
2 is the temporarily holding bin
3 pellet hopper.

There is a pellet level indicator in the bottom part of the pellet hopper (3)
When the pellets are near or below this level the vac turbine will switch on.

Then the vac turbine delivers wood pellets in the temporarily holding bin (2) for a number of seconds.
Then the vac turbine stops.
The magnet is de-energized. The magnet was holding the flapper closed, while pellets were filling.
The flapper swings opens because of the weight of the pellets, and the pellets falls in pellet hopper (3)
Then this sequence starts again for in total 30 seconds of pellets feeding, or the time that was initially calibrated depending on the length of the hoses.

Advantages:
- the Vac turbine does not suck combustion gases trough the pellet auger into the pellet bin (3): no burn back
- the Vac pellet feeding system can operate when pellet boiler is burning pellets
- The pellet hopper does not need to be designed to see vacuum, only the temporarily holding bin (2) sees vacuum.
- The return air hose blows air into the bulk storage bin, so the suction line can suck up the pellets easier without being blocked by to many pellets at once.

*You can actually also see this process in the movie clip earlier in this post (somewhere halfway in the movie).*


----------



## velvetfoot (Jan 5, 2013)

Very cool.  Does the unit have some self cleaning features?


----------



## heaterman (Jan 5, 2013)

The BioWin Exclusive series, which is what this unit is, requires virtually nothing in the line of daily or weekly maintenance. Cleaning of the firepot, the ashes at the bottom of the combustion chamber and the flue tubes is all fully automatic. Normal use with good pellets in this size unit would require ash removal 2 or 3 times per season. What little ash residue accumulates is augered into a sealed  ash container that is underneath the pellet hopper. It has wheels and a fold out handle on it so all you need to do for emptying it out is unlatch it and wheel it to where you are getting rid of the ash.
I like this unit a lot. The one we installed a few weeks ago is performing far beyond what I thought any kind of bio mass burning unit was capable of. They are as maintenance free as you can get. I was amazed at the efficiency and the flue temp in the very low 200* range through the whole burn cycle.


----------



## velvetfoot (Jan 5, 2013)

This and the other automatic pellet boilers sound great.  Some kind of on site bulk storage would be required.  I'd have to figure out how much volume to store a winters worth.  There's no way I could create something like that bin made of wood, but would have to figure something else out.  I don't even think pellets are available in buck where I live, so I guess bagged pellets would be used, eliminating one of the attractions of this system.  The whole automated and minimal handling thing is quite appealing.


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Jan 6, 2013)

velvetfoot said:


> This and the other automatic pellet boilers sound great. Some kind of on site bulk storage would be required. I'd have to figure out how much volume to store a winters worth. There's no way I could create something like that bin made of wood, but would have to figure something else out. I don't even think pellets are available in buck where I live, so I guess bagged pellets would be used, eliminating one of the attractions of this system. The whole automated and minimal handling thing is quite appealing.


 
Bulk storage really depends on the size of your house and heat load.
If you only consume 2 bags of pellets a day I would start out with manually feeding the pellet hopper.
Most pellet hoppers hold 8 to 10 bags or 320 to 400 Lbs of pellets
2 x 40 Lbs bags = 80 Lbs or roughly 80 Lbs x 7,500 BTU/lbs = 600,000 BTU/hr or 25,000 BTU/hr on average

You can upgrade during your first heating season or after your first heating season if it doesn't work for what reason it may be: not practical, to heavy work, work schedule, no teenager that can do the work for you, .... .

If you decide to go for a bulk pellet storage I would go bigger then 3 tons, because most bulk pellet deliveries do not charge a delivery charge above this minimum quantity or very minimal.
I would not go bigger then 5 ton because then you spent to much money upfront on your fuel.
I rather keep it in my pocket for 2 or 3 more weeks.
3 Tons will last you 75 days or more if you consume 2 bags a day or less
You can hire a local carpenter to construct a wooden pellet hopper if you can not do it yourself.
A wooden bin is much cheaper and you can work around your available space and configuration.

You are about 70 miles from Sandri Energy in Greenfield MA, who is a big player in bulk pellet delivery
There must be more companies that provide for bulk delivery because there are quite a few pellets mills around where you are located.

Below an example of a wooden bin inside a concrete basement.
3 suction points inside the bin
The picture earlier in this posting shows a bin with only 1 suction point.


----------



## velvetfoot (Jan 6, 2013)

Thanks!  Just one more question.  Does this require a 6" flue?


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Jan 6, 2013)

velvetfoot said:


> Thanks! Just one more question. Does this require a 6" flue?


 
5" minimum, double wall, with barometric damper.
As all Austrian pellet boilers do


----------



## sinnian (Feb 4, 2013)

Who services them in Maine should a problem arise with the unit?


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Feb 5, 2013)

sinnian said:


> Who services them in Maine should a problem arise with the unit?


 
*Installations* are done by local HVAC companies or the home owner, or a combination of the two.
System design is provided by Caluwe, Inc. or WindhagerUSA, Inc. and/or the Austrian headquarters.
DIY wood pellet bulk storage bin designs by PE are available in different configurations.

*Service* in New England is handled by Caluwe Inc. and/or WindhagerUSA, Inc later in 2013.
Same for the commissionings of the Windhager BioWIN wood pellet boiler systems.
First commissioning and on-site training is still included in the price at this point in time and will be for 2013.

Spare parts are stocked at same company in the Billerica-MA warehouse.

BioWIN, it's in the name: a win/win situation for all parties, but especially for the home owner!


----------



## sinnian (Feb 5, 2013)

PassionForFire&Water said:


> Installations are done by local HVAC companies or the home owner, or a combination of the two.
> System design is provided by Caluwe, Inc. or WindhagerUSA, Inc. and/or the Austrian headquarters.
> DIY wood pellet bulk storage bin designs by PE are available in different configurations.
> 
> ...


 
So no one 

For Maine, and installer would need to be certified in solid fuels ~ not an HVAC.


----------



## maple1 (Feb 6, 2013)

Didn't he answer your question on who services in Maine?

_*Service in New England is handled by Caluwe Inc. and/or WindhagerUSA, Inc later in 2013.*_


----------



## sinnian (Feb 6, 2013)

maple1 said:


> Didn't he answer your question on who services in Maine?
> 
> _*Service in New England is handled by Caluwe Inc. and/or WindhagerUSA, Inc later in 2013.*_


 
Yes he did.  Neither of which is IN Maine, nor in New England until later in 2013.  What's your point?


----------



## heaterman (Feb 6, 2013)

Sinnian. This is a new product line and a broadening dealer base will be established as it goes along.  If you have any skills in the trade you might do yourself a favor by getting in on the ground floor so to speak and investigate the product a little bit. Maybe you could be the "Maine guy".  

I would say from what I know about the situation, and have seen of the product that Windhager is firmly in the top 10% of the industry from a quality and engineering standpoint and they have expressed a firm commitment to becoming a major player in the field here in North America.


----------



## EffectaBoilerUser (USA) (Feb 6, 2013)

Marc,

What's the approx. cost of this pellet system (minus the home made hopper)?

Thanks,

Brian


----------



## maple1 (Feb 7, 2013)

sinnian said:


> Yes he did. Neither of which is IN Maine, nor in New England until later in 2013. What's your point?


 
No agenda here.

From just reading the reply, it seemed he was saying that service in New England (of which Maine is a part of), is handled by Caluwe. Which I thought was your question - who services in Maine. I.e., if a boiler is located in Maine, who services it? If you meant who is located in Maine that services a boiler, that is another thing - I have no idea who Caluwe is or where they are actually located at.

I also read the 'later in 2013' part of the reply as relating to Windhager and not Caluwe - so if that was not right, then I misread the whole thing.

This seems like some great technology - if I didn't have the wood supply I do, I'd be considering it very seriously.


----------



## EffectaBoilerUser (USA) (Feb 7, 2013)

Is this pellet boiler tested/certified to UL/CSA solid fuel burning devices for indoor use and is it ASME stamped for pressure operation? Have you had any issues with inspectors regarding the UL and ASME requirements?

Since it sounds like these units are being installed by HVAC professionals I would be curious to know the struggles with local codes that you've had thus far.

Thanks,

Brian


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Feb 8, 2013)

sinnian said:


> Yes he did. Neither of which is IN Maine, nor in New England until later in 2013. What's your point?


 
Limerick-Maine is 2 hours from Billerica-MA, where Caluwe Inc is located (and WindhagerUSA will be). I would think that is close enough, or is it that important that a service company lives next door.

Most important is that all spare parts are in stock, and that the customer does not need to wait 2 or 3 weeks.

Installers will be more wide spread.
For the state of Maine there are already some: in Waldo county and in Aroostook county.


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Feb 8, 2013)

EffectaBoilerUser (USA) said:


> Marc,
> 
> What's the approx. cost of this pellet system (minus the home made hopper)?
> 
> ...


 
Hi Brian,
I believe it is the policy of this forum not to go into pricing topics.
Pricing on the Windhager BioWIN can easily be found on our website and via internet searches.


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Feb 8, 2013)

sinnian said:


> So no one
> 
> For Maine, and installer would need to be certified in solid fuels ~ not an HVAC.


 
Your initial question was related to servicing, not installations. I answered that one.

Installs are the responsibility of the customer.
We can only point out to pull the required permits and inform them to hire a "solid fuels" certified installer and adhere to all local codes and regulations.


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Feb 8, 2013)

EffectaBoilerUser (USA) said:


> Is this pellet boiler tested/certified to UL/CSA solid fuel burning devices for indoor use and is it ASME stamped for pressure operation? Have you had any issues with inspectors regarding the UL and ASME requirements?
> 
> Since it sounds like these units are being installed by HVAC professionals I would be curious to know the struggles with local codes that you've had thus far.
> 
> ...


 
UL/CSA by OMNI-Testing (467-S-01-2 ): http://www.omni-test.com/listing_directories/pld_search_results_final.php?product=1192

ASME certification is in process and will be available as an option in July/August 2013 on BioWIN & BioWIN-XL

No issues so far with local code officials.


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Feb 13, 2013)

Some numbers since startup:
846 operation hours
2.69 Tons of wood pellets consumed
532 starts.
1.6 hours of average burn time

The area did see a bunch of power losses the last month: the BioWIN handles them nicely and starts up when electricity comes on again.


----------



## maple1 (Feb 13, 2013)

When was startup?

(i.e. how long has it been operating)


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Feb 13, 2013)

maple1 said:


> When was startup?
> 
> (i.e. how long has it been operating)


 
Since Dec 22-2012, That is 53 days

846 operation hours / 53 days = 16 hours/day on average


----------



## velvetfoot (Feb 13, 2013)

PassionForFire&Water said:


> Since Dec 22-2013, That is 53 days
> 
> 846 operation hours / 53 days = 16 hours/day on average


Ummm...that's in the future.  

But seriously, can the stock controls come with up with this data, and maybe more?


----------



## jebatty (Feb 13, 2013)

This thread reads as a sales commercial to me, or am I out of bounds? Reporting and data are good, but I would like to see as impartial, objective reporting as reasonably as possible. Reporting by a dealer or mfr rep just does not quite meet that standard.


----------



## velvetfoot (Feb 15, 2013)

I think it's informative.


----------



## heaterman (Feb 15, 2013)

Agreed.

The stats on pellet use and burn times are interesting and will be informative to compare to the one we installed back in the first of December. That unit is on a 100% low temperature radiant system and the only boiler protection is the pump aquastat integral to the boiler. It turns off circulation at 122-125* if I recall.

 2.69 tons =5380# so 5380 / 846 = 6.36 pounds of pellets per hour. Pellet heat content is generally acknowledged to be about 8,250 btu/pound so this boiler is averaging 52,470 btu's output / hour of run time. I think the rated output on the 260 is 88,000 btu's so it would appear that it is modulating down to about 60% output for an average over the whole period.
   This is where a pellet boiler can really shine in comparison to a wood fired boiler with no storage. It can, (at least this one) modulate to match the existing load without having to have a huge amount, if any storage capability.

In my neck of the woods you can buy premium quality pellets for $189/ton so 2.69 x $189 = $508
That 2.69 tons = 44,385,000 btu's
The equivalent in oil at our local price of $3.74/gallon figures out to $1194 so the guy is heating his place with minimal effort involved for only 40% or so of the cost of oil.

Using the equivalent in LP gas would be 486 gallons and at my local price of $1.95/gallon right now that figures out to about $950.

I have to say that even if you have your own land and the cordwood used is "free", it would make me take a little bit dimmer view of cutting, hauling, splitting, stacking, drying, hauling, loading, burning scenario that we go through with cord wood.


----------



## Downeast Farmer (Feb 15, 2013)

Heaterman--
Would you use this pellet boiler as a wood boiler--with a backup, or as an oil boiler, which doesn't need a backup.  If the former, what sort of backup would you use?


----------



## heaterman (Feb 16, 2013)

Provided the fuel source (loading) is taken care of I don't see any reason at all that a person could not use this as a stand alone primary heat source. They look to be an extremely reliable piece of equipment made for continuous duty.

Mine is connected to my gas boiler piping and running at about 55-60% output as we speak. It's about 12* here right now and headed below 0 tonight.


----------



## sinnian (Feb 16, 2013)

Downeast Farmer said:


> Heaterman--
> Would you use this pellet boiler as a wood boiler--with a backup, or as an oil boiler, which doesn't need a backup. If the former, what sort of backup would you use?


 
You should know insurance companies require a parallel back up source.


----------



## heaterman (Feb 16, 2013)

sinnian said:


> You should know insurance companies require a parallel back up source.


 
Yes they do. I think though that they have to get up to speed with what is going on in the market especially with automated feed pellet boilers like the one Marc noted at the top of this post. To me there is virtually no difference between a pellet boiler with a 3 ton hopper and a gas boiler with a 500 gallon "pig out in the yard or an oil boiler working from a 275 gallon tank.
That rule is based on "old school" solid fuel heating devices and IMHO is not applicable to the type of system Marc has going  there in Maine. If I were a homeowner being faced with that, I would take that issue to court and very likely win. The pellet boiler mentioned here acts more like a high tech gas boiler than something that burns wood.


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Feb 17, 2013)

Wood pellet boilers are now classified as a conventional,* primary heating source*, according to the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development, and consequently ...... .
Checkout link:  http://biomassmagazine.com/articles...now-classified-as-conventional-heating-source


----------



## jebatty (Feb 17, 2013)

FWIW, some more fun with numbers. 





> Heaterman: Pellet heat content is generally acknowledged to be about 8,250 btu/pound ...


... but Passion states the pellets are at 7,500 btu/lb.

Using 8,250 btu/lb, this would be about right at an assumed MC of 5%. Wood HHV at 0% MC is 8,660 btu/lb, HHV at 20% MC is 6,930 btu/lb, so at 5% MC HHV would be 8,230 btu/lb. I'm assuming that 5% "as delivered" probably is pretty close. Energy in Wood

The MC would increase to the equilibrium point the longer the pellets are stored before burning. The amount of increase would depend upon local conditions, but if stored at 40F and 30% relative humidity, the equilibrium point would be 6.3% MC. Equilibrium

Starting with available energy of assumed 8,250 btu/lb, and ignoring equilibrium MC, the next calculation is to adjust for boiling off the 5% MC plus the water generated during combustion and further adjusting for the increase in temperature from the pellet temperature as fed to the boiler (???, but assume 40F) and the flue exhaust temperature, which is stated as being "in the low 200'sF." This water content is 0.05 lb + 0.54 lb combustion water = 0.59 lb total water. Energy to boil water is 1,050 btu/lb, and if exhaust temperature is 240F, the temperature rise is 200F, so btu/lb to boil off the water and raise the temperature is 1,050 + 200 = 1,250 btu/lb. Therefore, net pellet energy delivered at the pellet combustion point is 8,250 - 1,250 = 7000 btu/lb.

The same calculation can be made with cord wood, and the result is 6,050 btu/lb at 20% MC at 400F stack temperature. Energy in Wood.

Based on these calculations and the cost figures given by Heaterman, pellet cost is $0.0945/lb, and still is about 50% the cost of oil and about 63% the cost of LP.

The cost of cord wood varies by region. In my area a cord of seasoned red oak cut, split and delivered is about $170, and at 20% MC the weight is about 3,600 lbs/cord. Btu adjusted cost would be $0.0546, or about 58% the cost of pellets. Of course, handling for stacking, hauling, loading, and burning still is required. Any potential user of any pellet boiler would take into account these factors, as well purchase, installation cost and other costs and benefits, in determining to purchase a pellet boiler or a gasification boiler (with storage), or indeed any other heating appliance.


----------



## ewdudley (Feb 17, 2013)

jebatty said:


> FWIW, some more fun with numbers.
> ...


So bottom line, with anthracite a $239 per ton delivered, 12300 btu per pound, it's our duty to choose wood as more expensive but carbon-neutral.


----------



## velvetfoot (Feb 17, 2013)

Wouldn't a modern pellet boiler beat out a wood gasification unit when it came to efficiency, so that would have to be tanken into account.


----------



## velvetfoot (Feb 17, 2013)

ewdudley said:


> So bottom line, with anthracite a $239 per ton delivered, 12300 btu per pound, it's our duty to choose wood as more expensive but carbon-neutral.


I used to live in Reading, PA back in the '70s, and someone I knew had a coal boiler fed by an auger from a bin.  That was his primary source of heat.  I don't know what cleaning is required of a modern coal boiler, but it seems that the two technologies, neglecting any fuel cost comparison, are very similar now.


----------



## jebatty (Feb 17, 2013)

Correction: This water content is 0.05 lb + 0.54 lb combustion water = 0.59 lb total water. Energy to boil water is 1,050 btu/lb, and if exhaust temperature is 240F, the temperature rise is 200F, so btu/lb to boil off the water and raise the temperature is *(1,050 + 200) x 0.59 = 738 btu/lb.* Therefore, net pellet energy delivered at the pellet combustion point is *8,250 - 738 = 7,512 btu/lb.*


----------



## ewdudley (Feb 17, 2013)

jebatty said:


> Correction: This water content is 0.05 lb + 0.54 lb combustion water = 0.59 lb total water. Energy to boil water is 1,050 btu/lb, and if exhaust temperature is 240F, the temperature rise is 200F, so btu/lb to boil off the water and raise the temperature is *(1,050 + 200) x 0.59 = 738 btu/lb.* Therefore, net pellet energy delivered at the pellet combustion point is *8,250 - 738 = 7,512 btu/lb.*


As long as you're figuring to four significant digits, need to account for the specific heat of steam vs. that of water, at least so I was told when completing my chemistry merit badge.


----------



## jebatty (Feb 17, 2013)

Should probably only account for 2 significant digits. And my gut tells me no need to account of specific heat of steam. The steam is in the exhaust gas flow, through the fire tubes, and then exhausted to the outside. It is not condensed back to water inside the boiler. But feel free to add your thoughts.


----------



## ewdudley (Feb 17, 2013)

jebatty said:


> Should probably only account for 2 significant digits. And my gut tells me no need to account of specific heat of steam. The steam is in the exhaust gas flow, through the fire tubes, and then exhausted to the outside. It is not condensed back to water inside the boiler. But feel free to add your thoughts.


The steam is heated and needs to be accounted for.  My 'thoughts' are that if you're going to offer thermodynamic analysis as opposed to what your 'gut tells', then do so correctly.


----------



## velvetfoot (Feb 17, 2013)

What's the point of all this?  Pellet is more expensive than wood?  Isn't that a given?  The subject is about a recent modern pellet boiler intallation and operating resuilts.

Edit:  Maybe there should be a separate pellet boiler forum.


----------



## jebatty (Feb 17, 2013)

Ew, what's your point? I answered heaterman's long post on cost giving what I thought was more accurate analysis. If you're able to do better, please do so. If I made mistakes, please correct. The comment "then do so correctly" is in your court, as you evidence a belief that my info was not correct. I will be more than happy to learn from your expertise, from which I have learned many times in the past.


----------



## heaterman (Feb 17, 2013)

One of the things that struck me with pellets was the difference in flue gas dew point vs wood. Even nicely dried and seasoned wood.

The Testo 330-2 that I use for flue gas measurements allows me to select moisture content of the Biomass/wood being burned. After dialing the appropriate number into the meter it will tell me what the dew point of the flue gas is and that is a big clue as to how some of these advanced pellet burners get the efficiency numbers that they do.
For example; earlier this year I was fiddling with my son's Econoburn wood boiler and had tested his mixed hard maple and oak at between 18-23% MC. Nice dry wood. As I remember, the flue gas dew point shown was in the 200-220* range. which makes sense seeing that most wood boiler manufacturers recommend minimum water temps in the 140-150 range.
When I dial in 10%MC for testing a pellet boiler the flue gas dew point on the Testo reads in the low 100* range. Usually around 106-118*. Just looked at the one I have burning and the flue temp is running about 20* above water temp. This is pretty consistent when the burner is modulated below 100% output. The water temp set point is 165* and it varies around that to about 172*. The flue gas temp was 189* which would normally be near catastrophic for a wood burner. The flue would be dripping.
In the pellet boiler however, the Testo says that the flue gas dew point is currently 108.6 so there is plenty of margin to avoid condensation even at only 15-20* difference between flue gas and water temperature.
This has some to do with the design of the boiler and it's ability to wring nearly all the energy out of the flue gasses but for the most part it is simply a function of extremely dry fuel so there is no moisture to contend with.


----------



## heaterman (Feb 17, 2013)

BTW our dear Government's own Energy Information Agency is where I came up with the 8250 btu/pound for pellets. It's the number they use on the Excel spread sheet for comparing net fuel costs for different fuels.


----------



## jebatty (Feb 17, 2013)

Btu/lb gets very confusing, as some sites use "gross" heating value, others use "net" heating value, others use HHV (high heat value) and yet others LHV (low heat value). And then there are sites that come up with btu/lb for which I cannot find a rational explanation. The Forest Products Laboratory, USDA, USFS has this explanation which helps in part: http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/techline/fuel-value-calculator.pdf



> The higher heating value (HHV) of a fuel is the amount of energy available from its complete combustion, including the energy from condensing the water vapor that results from the combustion. The lower heating value (LHV) is the HHV minus the energy from condensing the water vapor that results from the combustion. All fuels generate some water from hydrogen during the combustion process; this also results in a lower heating value.


 
I'm not aware that "complete" combustion can be obtained anywhere but in a laboratory, as I think it must take place in the presence of pure oxygen.


----------



## Downeast Farmer (Feb 17, 2013)

Would you have that efficiency on a well-modulated burn?  What I'm really asking is this: is there any point to having storage with this?


----------



## scooby074 (Feb 17, 2013)

velvetfoot said:


> I think it's informative.


 
I do too!


----------



## heaterman (Feb 17, 2013)

Downeast Farmer said:


> Would you have that efficiency on a well-modulated burn? What I'm really asking is this: is there any point to having storage with this?


 
I would in certain scenarios. The primary one being where a person is using a coil in a forced air system which of course is an all or nothing type demand. While a pellet boiler can come up to temp and shut down much more quickly than a wood fired boiler, it's still not instant on/off.

Even a hot water baseboard system could go from full demand to nothing and create problems.

I've been watching the one I have burning here today and it is about a perfect match for my type of system. Only one of my zones is baseboard with a zone valve. There are 5 panel rads with TRV's and the radiant floor is constant circ with an outdoor sensor controlled mixing valve modulating temp to that. There are only two pumps and they are both constant circ. No traditional thermostats in the house.It is proportional control.
The pellet boiler has been running  between 30 and 60% firing rate ever since I flipped it on yesterday. No off cycles so the ideal would be to have some type of constant
demand type system.


----------



## Downeast Farmer (Feb 18, 2013)

It seems there's no way out of using storage with a fan coil in a forced air system, unless you have a minimum temperature you're always circulating through the fan coil.  By "proportional control" you mean in proportion to the outdoor sensor?


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Feb 18, 2013)

Downeast Farmer said:


> It seems there's no way out of using storage with a fan coil in a forced air system, unless you have a minimum temperature you're always circulating through the fan coil. By "proportional control" you mean in proportion to the outdoor sensor?


 
I don't see any difference between a water based or air based system. *Heat is heat*

The BioWIN will just modulate between 100% and 30% of the heat load.

We have a test setup in the shop with a BioWIN100 and a 35,000 BTU/hr water-to-air HX for training purposes
The BioWIN100 pellet boiler just modulates.

If the water-to-air HX is under-sized to the capacity of the pellet boiler, then it will modulate.
If the water-to-air HX is over-sized to the capacity of the pellet boiler, then it will run at max output.


----------



## Downeast Farmer (Feb 18, 2013)

So, Marc--
Scenario 1: radiant heat, constant circulation, pellet boiler always on but modulating between (in Heaterman's example) 30% and 60%.

Scenario 2: fan coil heat exchanger, which cycles on and off in response to T-stat, which in turns cycles the pellet boiler on and off.

Isn't Scenario 2 bad for the boiler?  I thought cycling caused premature decline.


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Feb 18, 2013)

heaterman said:


> I would in certain scenarios. The primary one being where a person is using a coil in a forced air system which of course is an all or nothing type demand. While a pellet boiler can come up to temp and shut down much more quickly than a wood fired boiler, it's still not instant on/off.
> 
> Even a hot water baseboard system could go from full demand to nothing and create problems.
> 
> ...


 
The manufacturer Windhager specifically tells you not to use water storage.
Only for the BioWIN100 installed in a situation where the heat load is less then 3 kW they suggest a small water storage.
I will need to look up the volume they recommend.

Also, all installations require a time delay of 10 minutes when heat demand stops.
This is to drain all the heat out of the boiler and bring it to where it is needed: in the rooms.
This again tells you they do not want water storage.

Windhager did extensive testing, and to them, water storage is a loss of energy and there for a loss of efficiency for a modulating pellet boiler.


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Feb 18, 2013)

Downeast Farmer said:


> So, Marc--
> Scenario 1: radiant heat, constant circulation, pellet boiler always on but modulating between (in Heaterman's example) 30% and 60%.
> 
> Scenario 2: fan coil heat exchanger, which cycles on and off in response to T-stat, which in turns cycles the pellet boiler on and off.
> ...


 
It's my opinion that correct sizing of both pellet boiler and W2AHX will prevent the on/off situation.

We have one setup where a 1000 SF shop space is heated with an W2AHX via a BioWIN260, besides baseboard in the main house.
Will ask the home owner how this works out for him
I will get back to you.


----------



## Downeast Farmer (Feb 18, 2013)

Also: Is there a way to incorporate solar panels into a Windhager system.  Compare with, for example, the Bio-Sol furnace, which has a pellet burner into a 630-liter tank with heat exchangers, a real slick way of incorporating solar (or the heated water from the wood cookstove).  How would you do this with a Windhager?


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Feb 18, 2013)

Downeast Farmer said:


> Also: Is there a way to incorporate solar panels into a Windhager system. Compare with, for example, the Bio-Sol furnace, which has a pellet burner into a 630-liter tank with heat exchangers, a real slick way of incorporating solar (or the heated water from the wood cookstove). How would you do this with a Windhager?


 
630L = 170 gallons
What is the purpose of this setup? DHW or space heating?


----------



## Downeast Farmer (Feb 18, 2013)

see http://www.lakelandrenewables.com/lakeland-renewables-swebo-energy-details37ab.html?id=59

The system outputs heat and DHW  and accepts pellet burner or solar (or whatever) as inputs into, essentially, a central "energy cell."

If one wanted to use the Windhager as an input for an energy cell, the cell is really just thermal storage.  Into the storage goes the heat exchanger from the Windhager and the heat exchanger from the Solar; out from the storage goes DHW and space heating.

I gather if you can't use storage with a Windhager, you couldn't do it this way.  Is there some other way you'd incorporate solar into your system?


----------



## heaterman (Feb 18, 2013)

I can see where Windhagers opinion is coming from after watching the 260 we have running on the installation we did in the 6400 sq ft building we did the first of December. The only "mass" that boiler see's when the radiant floor quits calling for heat is the 100 or so feet of pex running between the boiler location and the primary loop. Maybe only 4-5 gallons of water including the primary loop itself.
The boiler is able to shut down very quickly once heat demand stops and just sit there and maintain set point temperature.

That particular application shows a cycle ratio of 1 start/stop for every 1.16 hours. If we could let the boiler go completely off rather than maintain the set point the ratio would be even higher. As it is, the boiler is sitting in an unheated but insulated small building erected where the old OWB stood. So rather than running a thermostat wire from the heated space to call the pellet boiler on/off we had to simply jump the terminals to create a constant "demand" as keep the boiler warm. The underground loop circulates through the primary inside the building constantly.  If I could have designed the system from the start it's not the way I would have done it. As it is a retrofit installation though, we have to work with what is there and I have to say it works pretty well all things considered.


----------



## heaterman (Feb 18, 2013)

Downeast Farmer said:


> see http://www.lakelandrenewables.com/lakeland-renewables-swebo-energy-details37ab.html?id=59
> 
> The system outputs heat and DHW and accepts pellet burner or solar (or whatever) as inputs into, essentially, a central "energy cell."
> 
> ...


 

I have seen exactly what you describe on Windhagers website and think that such a system is common in Europe. They use a large storage tank with multiple coils in it to allow for inputs/outputs from/to varying heat sources. The manual I have even talks about integrating the pellet boiler into a system already served by a cord wood boiler and having them work together. Maybe I'm wrong but the way it reads it appears that if both boilers are Windhager, they can be "connected" and will communicate with each other.


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Feb 18, 2013)

Downeast Farmer said:


> see http://www.lakelandrenewables.com/lakeland-renewables-swebo-energy-details37ab.html?id=59
> 
> The system outputs heat and DHW and accepts pellet burner or solar (or whatever) as inputs into, essentially, a central "energy cell."
> 
> ...


 

I will have a look at this later this week.

But again, it's all about proper system design, doesn't matter the brand or air or water as an energy carrier. (I'm not in favor of air applications, but they have there place in the heating world)
What's your goal and how you will get to it.


----------



## Downeast Farmer (Feb 18, 2013)

heaterman said:


> I have seen exactly what you describe on Windhagers website and think that such a system is common in Europe. They use a large storage tank with multiple coils in it to allow for inputs from varying heat sources. The manual I have even talks about integrating the pellet boiler into a system already served by a cord wood boiler and having them work together. Maybe I'm wrong but the way it reads it appears that if both boilers are Windhager, they can be "connected" and will communicate with each other.


 
This may be a good system for this place.  In would go boiler, solar, cookstove hx, out would go DHW (now done by cookstove but to excess) and heat.  Are they doing pressurized storage with multiple hx's (similar to the Bio-Sol), or unpressurized?


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Feb 18, 2013)

heaterman said:


> I have seen exactly what you describe on Windhagers website and think that such a system is common in Europe. They use a large storage tank with multiple coils in it to allow for inputs/outputs from/to varying heat sources. The manual I have even talks about integrating the pellet boiler into a system already served by a cord wood boiler and having them work together. Maybe I'm wrong but the way it reads it appears that if both boilers are Windhager, they can be "connected" and will communicate with each other.


 
Yes, but you will need the Windhager controller to so.
And this is not available yet in North America


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Feb 18, 2013)

I'm getting addicted to this forum.
I need to get to work


----------



## Downeast Farmer (Feb 18, 2013)

heaterman said:


> That particular application shows a cycle ratio of 1 start/stop for every 1.16 hours. If we could let the boiler go completely off rather than maintain the set point the ratio would be even higher. As it is, the boiler is sitting in an unheated but insulated small building erected where the old OWB stood. So rather than running a thermostat wire from the heated space to call the pellet boiler on/off we had to simply jump the terminals to create a constant "demand" as keep the boiler warm. The underground loop circulates through the primary inside the building constantly.


 
So the analogous fan coil system would have the boiler constantly circulating through the coil to keep the boiler warm?


----------



## heaterman (Feb 18, 2013)

Downeast Farmer said:


> It seems there's no way out of using storage with a fan coil in a forced air system, unless you have a minimum temperature you're always circulating through the fan coil. By "proportional control" you mean in proportion to the outdoor sensor?


 
Proportional control means that the system itself is able to respond not by initiating an on/off cycle but rather by varying either temperature or flow rate to match the heat loss of the building under changing demand.
In my case, the TRV's on each of the radiators "throttle" the flow rate as the room temperature changes while the radiant floor part of the system changes the actual water temperature in response to outdoor temperature.

Proportional control of a heating system is like cruise control on your car. The heat output is not on/off but rather , is able to change output based on demand.


----------



## Downeast Farmer (Feb 18, 2013)

heaterman said:


> Proportional control of a heating system is like cruise control on your car. The heat output is not on/off but rather , is able to change output based on demand.


 
I think I finally understand this!  Thanks.


----------



## heaterman (Feb 18, 2013)

Downeast Farmer said:


> I think I finally understand this! Thanks.


 
Proportional control on the output side of the system eliminates a huge number of on/off cycles especially when coupled with an appliance that is able to vary it's output like the pellet boiler we started this discussion with.

The Windhager I am running right now will go from 100% down to 30% and anywhere in between in order to match actual demand. That's the input side of the equation.


----------



## heaterman (Feb 18, 2013)

Time for me to get to work too.

Changing out a chimney in a single wide today, hopefully before the weather gets ugly here. Rain and high 30's this afternoon.


----------



## Tennman (Feb 21, 2015)

Better than start from scratch I thot I'd resurrect this excellent conversation which was very informative. 

Discovered yesterday a pellet manufacturer less than an hour from our home. Today I could go there and purchase bulk pellets at $165/ton. When I get to the point of buying all my wood that price makes burning pellets almost a wash. This discussion was addressing merging multiple energy sources then everyone needed to go to work. We will always have blow down and trees falling needing clean up on our property so a wood boiler has its place. But age, available time, my "free" labor moving off, and knowing I can get pellets down here is making me rethink our upgrade for next season. 

For the foreseeable future, we're stuck with forced air although some baseboard radiant could be added downstream. So if we added a BioWin, is hooking it into our two vertical 500s a bad thing? We can isolate our storage to one 500 tank when we run the pellet. After finally getting storage I'm loath to scrap it. So what is the latest thots on merging multiple energy sources to include a BioWin? Discovering this pellet plant has turned my upgrade plans upside down.


----------



## Karl_northwind (Feb 23, 2015)

That Shouldn't be a problem,  maybe a little less than ideal as you would have storage losses from the 1 or 2 500's, and they're not really necessary with the windhager bio-win's modulation.  burning to that size of storage I would put some 3rd party return protection in place instead of just using the control in the windhager.  I don't remember what your distribution side is, but I put in 50 or so gallons as a buffer with air-based systems, and can get up to 2 hours run time per ignition, which is great.  that's averaged out over half a year, with half of that time period doing only DHW.  The supplier provides buffer tanks if you want. 

and BTW, $165 A TON  wow.  we hear that we have it good in Wi, with 5 plants or more, and winter price is $220 plus.  

K


----------



## heaterman (Feb 23, 2015)

Let me know when you want it delivered. Tennessee is nice about the end of April. Lol

As Karl said, that amount of storage certainly isn't needed but if you plan on integrating a BioWin into the system and keeping the wood burner also as a secondary heat source I'd say run with it.
Shouldn't be tough to get it sandwiched on the system so it would function very well.


----------



## Tennman (Feb 23, 2015)

Thanks guys. Yes HM we'll be talking. This time around I want the pros involved from the beginning instead of generous help from Hearth sprinkled over the first 2 years debugging the system. We will have a system design up front. Our 500 gal tanks have +4" of foam so if the main reason not for the pellet to feed storage is energy leakage, I'll accept that inefficiency for the benefit of the BioMass helping when necessary. Yeah... Tennessee isn't very nice for a nawthoner in August.


----------

