# Did I get ripped off by the firewood guy?!



## Dave K (Dec 5, 2013)

Hi guys,

I recently bought a house and was left about a face cord of very seasoned wood.  I was very excited to get started burning and knew that I'd need more wood for the winter, but I wasn't sure if I'd just be burning on the weekends or if I'd be trying to burn as a primary heat source.  With that said, I order 2 cords of wood because I thought that would be a good start (and I just bought a house so money is tight!) and if I really loved burning I could always order more.

So I got a delivery and finally finished stacking it last night (pic below).  I am concerned that it is not 2 cords so I thought I'd turn to you guys for some opinions.

It is in one row and most splits are between 14-20 inches.  I don't know whether to calculate the width as 2 feet or only as 1.5 feet when doing the calculations for a cord.  Any insight?  What is the norm?

The pile is 31 feet long and 4 feet high.  So if I use 2 feet for the width I come up with 248 cubic feet (but its definitely not 2 feet wide all the way across).  If I only use 1.5 feet for the width I come up with only 186 cubic feet.  What do you guys think?  Should I give my seller the benefit of the doubt and go with 2 feet, or should he have given me more wood since it only technically measures 1.5 feet wide?

If you think the latter, should I contact the guy and complain?

Thanks guys! 

-Dave


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## Jags (Dec 5, 2013)

14-20" averages 17" or 1.4ft.

4ft x 31 x 1.4 = 173 cuft

2 cords = 256 cuft
256 - 173 = 83 or .64 of a cord.

You got shorted somewhere around a half a cord. (assuming the average really is 17")


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## TimJ (Dec 5, 2013)

Check the section that has the cord calculators. They are on the money
using the calculator it comes up to 1.37 cords


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## Dave K (Dec 5, 2013)

I kind of figured that I was shorted.   So the big question is... should I call this guy and complain?  He charged me $150 per cord because my house is only a few miles from his supply and it was a quick trip for him.  So i paid him $300 for this amount.  So $300 divided by 1.37 equals about $218 per cord.  Should I just deal with it this time and then mention it to him next time I order, or should I call him and ask him to bring me more wood because he shorted me?


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## Jags (Dec 5, 2013)

2 - 1.37 = .63
Yep - the math works


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## Jags (Dec 5, 2013)

I would call and give him the chance to make it right. After all it is a $75 mistake.


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## Dave K (Dec 5, 2013)

Thanks Jags.  I am going to give him a call.  I don't know why I am hesitant to do so because HE is the one that shorted me.  If anything I should be pissed, but instead I feel bad for calling him out on it.  I am too nice of a guy.


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## oldspark (Dec 5, 2013)

Dave K said:


> I am too nice of a guy


 
You wont last around here.


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## Jon1270 (Dec 5, 2013)

Dave K said:


> It is in one row and most splits are between 14-20 inches.





Dave K said:


> Should I give my seller the benefit of the doubt and go with 2 feet, or should he have given me more wood since it only technically measures 1.5 feet wide?



Heh.  No, you don't round up to the nearest foot.  You don't round up at all.  I'd grab a dozen random splits, line them all up end-to-end, measure the length and divide by 12.  That's a more accurate way getting an average.



Dave K said:


> If anything I should be pissed,



You don't have to be pissed, just be clear and assertive.  You stacked and measured the wood, and it's short by about X amount.  Invite him to come and measure for himself. He'll either apologize and fix it, in which case you should keep ordering from him, or he'll deny it in which case you'll know never to buy from him again.


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## Clyde S. Dale (Dec 5, 2013)

Do you know for sure that the wood is dry?  That could also become an issue when it comes time to burn it.  If you don't have one already a moisture meter is a good investment if you will by buying your wood every winter.  We can help you determine whether or not the wood is dry if you want to go there.

I also agree you should (politely) call him on his mistake and give him the chance for redemption.

Good luck!


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## Jon1270 (Dec 5, 2013)

FWIW, the reason this happens is that most wood sellers don't ever stack the wood in any neat, easily measurable form.  They chuck it into a heap off the splitter, then chuck (or scoop) it into a truck to bring to you, and quantities are eyeballed, not measured. Competition, profit, sore muscles and underpowered trucks encourage them to err in their own favor.  It's up to you to keep them honest.


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## Dave K (Dec 5, 2013)

Jon1270 said:


> FWIW, the reason this happens is that most wood sellers don't ever stack the wood in any neat, easily measurable form.  They chuck it into a heap off the splitter, then chuck (or scoop) it into a truck to bring to you, and quantities are eyeballed, not measured. Competition, profit, sore muscles and underpowered trucks encourage them to err in their own favor.  It's up to you to keep them honest.




Exactly.  He brought it in a 16x6x3 trailer and it was all loosely thrown.


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## Dave K (Dec 5, 2013)

Clyde S. Dale said:


> Do you know for sure that the wood is dry?  That could also become an issue when it comes time to burn it.  If you don't have one already a moisture meter is a good investment if you will by buying your wood every winter.  We can help you determine whether or not the wood is dry if you want to go there.
> 
> I also agree you should (politely) call him on his mistake and give him the chance for redemption.
> 
> Good luck!



I do have a moisture meter and have got some readings that are variable.  On a single piece of wood I am getting 30% and also 21%.  That is on a a freshly split face.  I bought a cheap moisture meter, so maybe that is why I am getting such different readings?

The guy told me that all of the wood he sells is split at least a year and a month ago.  He has hundreds of cords in his wood yard and said that he has OCD about making sure it is seasoned for at least a year and a month.  If he has the splits just sitting in a pile for a year will it be enough to season?  Or does it need to be stacked neatly for a year to season


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## BurnIt13 (Dec 5, 2013)

Airflow and sunshine is what dries firewood.  If the pile is 50ft across and 15ft high and your load happened to be dead in the middle, guess what.....no air or sunshine.

It will be as wet, or wetter than when it was split.  Oak needs 2 years even in the best of conditions, so I have a feeling closer to 30% is about right.

But don't feel bad.  90% of every person that buys wood is experiencing the same thing as you.  "Seasoned" wood means it was cut down last season....as in last summer usually.  

BTW....the same thing happened to me my first year.  I bought 3 cords of wood and it seemed that 10% was bark, mulch, and dirt.  So I probably got the middle of the pile.  It didn't burn so well.


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## gzecc (Dec 5, 2013)

The splits on the outside will be dried best. Remember, oak, requires at least 2 years stacked in single rows in my yard.  Oak piled in a heap, will take forever to dry.


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## Dave K (Dec 5, 2013)

BurnIt13 said:


> Airflow and sunshine is what dries firewood.  If the pile is 50ft across and 15ft high and your load happened to be dead in the middle, guess what.....no air or sunshine.
> 
> It will be as wet, or wetter than when it was split.  Oak needs 2 years even in the best of conditions, so I have a feeling closer to 30% is about right.
> 
> ...




I find that when I load the stove with this wood I will have 1 out of the 5 pieces sizzling.  But for the most part, the wood burns pretty good.


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## BurnIt13 (Dec 5, 2013)

Dave K said:


> I find that when I load the stove with this wood I will have 1 out of the 5 pieces sizzling.  But for the most part, the wood burns pretty good.



Yup....that wood that got delivered 3 years ago still does this.  Its stacked in a single row but doesn't get a whole lot of sunshine or wind.  That was my first and last delivery.  I cut and stack my own now.


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## Dave K (Dec 5, 2013)

So I just got off the phone with him.  I told him the measurements that I have and he said that he will bring me a 1/4 a cord to make up for the difference.  I am happy with that and will order from him again.  At $150 per cord I think I got a great deal.


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## BurnIt13 (Dec 5, 2013)

That does sound like a great deal.  Up here in MA, even 50 miles from the city it is $250/cord delivered for descent stuff.  $200 for green.  There are better deals around but you get what you pay for.  And it still isn't even that great.


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## BrianN (Dec 5, 2013)

If he is bringing you a 1/4 cord, you are still over a 1/4 cord out. Let him know that you will order from him next year, but, you definitely want your full cord, seasoned next time. Of course, saying this politely.


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## RSNovi (Dec 5, 2013)

I have been paying $150 per cord and have gotten taken a few times.  Mostly I am shorted and I can't get them to bring more or the wood is in very large pieces. A school teacher that my wife works with told her that he sells firewood for $140 a cord.  My parents got a load and it is nice wood.  Not seasoned, but I am fine with letting it sit for a couple of years.


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## Dave K (Dec 5, 2013)

BrianN said:


> If he is bringing you a 1/4 cord, you are still over a 1/4 cord out. Let him know that you will order from him next year, but, you definitely want your full cord, seasoned next time. Of course, saying this politely.





BrianN said:


> If he is bringing you a 1/4 cord, you are still over a 1/4 cord out. Let him know that you will order from him next year, but, you definitely want your full cord, seasoned next time. Of course, saying this politely.



I realize that it is still short of 2 cords, but his advertised price is $180 a cord and he's selling it to me for a deal because his supply is within a few miles of my house.  So I am going to accept the shortage and hope that next time it is the same price and he delivers the full amount.  At least now he knows that I will measure it.  

I don't know how he came up with 1/4 of a cord shortage.  Maybe his math was off, but I'll take it because I wasn't even going to call him out on it in the first place so I'm happy that he's bringing another 32 cubic feet.


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## BillLion (Dec 5, 2013)

$150 a cord is pretty good deal to me. I pay $250 delivered and some charge more than that.


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## Dave K (Dec 5, 2013)

BillLion said:


> $150 a cord is pretty good deal to me. I pay $250 delivered and some charge more than that.


 

that is the reason that I am OK with accepting a little bit less than a full 2 cords at that price.   Even if I only end up with 1.62 cords it comes out to about $185 per cord.  Its still a good price


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## stefan66 (Dec 5, 2013)

Dave K said:


> that is the reason that I am OK with accepting a little bit less than a full 2 cords at that price.   Even if I only end up with 1.62 cords it comes out to about $185 per cord.  Its still a good price



1.62 cords is not 2. Granted its a good price. But it's still not right.
When I buy wood I stack tight and measure. If I'm short almost 1/2 cord the supplier is gonna hear about it.


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## Backwoods Savage (Dec 5, 2013)

Dave K said:


> So I just got off the phone with him.  I told him the measurements that I have and he said that he will bring me a 1/4 a cord to make up for the difference.  I am happy with that and will order from him again.  At $150 per cord I think I got a great deal.



If you think you got a great deal, then the deal is right. But one little part still bothers me. That is, unless I missed it, we still don't have any idea what this wood is. Just saying it is hardwood does not cut the mustard at all. I could sell you a cord of willow for $150 and would you be happy with that? I doubt it. Yet, willow is hardwood. 

In addition, he says the wood is split for 1 year and 1 month. Not sure why he uses that but it is better than nothing. But that wood was split and then just heaped up in a pile. Sorry, wood does not dry that way except the very outer layer. But again, if you are happy with it, then it is okay. However, I would highly advise you get all of this year's and next year's wood stacked as quickly as possible and if you don't know what kind of wood it is, ask the man. Then come back on this forum and many of the guys will tell you how long it takes to dry that wood. 

As for your MM, just because you get different readings is meaningless so I would not say your meter is wrong. Just make sure you are using it right. Myself, I've never owned on nor found a need to own one. That is because of the 3 year plan on wood. That is, being 3 years ahead on your wood supply at all times. The dividends you will get from this are fantastic. 

Good luck.


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## Paulywalnut (Dec 5, 2013)

The wood delivery guys have no problem asking quite high prices. They really should make it right and deliver what you in good paid for.


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## BIGDADDY (Dec 5, 2013)

Just to answer your question anytime you make a deal for something for so much and you pay your agreed amount but do not receive the agreed amount product , yes you got ripped off. No matter how you spin it.
Yes he will rip you again obviously that's how he operates. Especially when you knowingly allow him to rip you after measuring it.
I'd rather find somone honest to buy from.
I would have told him if he wants to make it right then make it right but don't patronize me with a quarter cord.
You state since he knows you measured this load , he hopefully will bring the correct amount next time. Another thing he knows is , he bullied, bluffed or whatever you into taken less wood then you paid for, that he knows and that will affect your future dealings.
You set the tone by allowing it.


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## BrotherBart (Dec 5, 2013)

The biggest wood seller in this area covers his backside well. He delivers in a heaped truck and will tell you it is "Somewhere between 2 1/2 and 3 cords.". He has been selling wood two miles from me for 30 years in that same dump body so he knows darn well how much wood is in that truck. I have never bought wood from him but if I ever do I don't expect a stick over 2 1/2 cord.


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## Dave K (Dec 5, 2013)

BIGDADDY said:


> Just to answer your question anytime you make a deal for something for so much and you pay your agreed amount but do not receive the agreed amount product , yes you got ripped off. No matter how you spin it.
> Yes he will rip you again obviously that's how he operates. Especially when you knowingly allow him to rip you after measuring it.
> I'd rather find somone honest to buy from.
> I would have told him if he wants to make it right then make it right but don't patronize me with a quarter cord.
> ...



Very true. I appreciate your candor. I needed to hear that. I shouldn't allow it because it is setting the tone for future dealings with him. 

I talked to another guy that sounds a lot more reputable so I think I'd rather pay a little more and get a better product.


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## Dave K (Dec 5, 2013)

Backwoods Savage said:


> If you think you got a great deal, then the deal is right. But one little part still bothers me. That is, unless I missed it, we still don't have any idea what this wood is. Just saying it is hardwood does not cut the mustard at all. I could sell you a cord of willow for $150 and would you be happy with that? I doubt it. Yet, willow is hardwood.
> 
> In addition, he says the wood is split for 1 year and 1 month. Not sure why he uses that but it is better than nothing. But that wood was split and then just heaped up in a pile. Sorry, wood does not dry that way except the very outer layer. But again, if you are happy with it, then it is okay. However, I would highly advise you get all of this year's and next year's wood stacked as quickly as possible and if you don't know what kind of wood it is, ask the man. Then come back on this forum and many of the guys will tell you how long it takes to dry that wood.
> 
> ...



He said it was hickory, ash and pin oak. I'm satisfied with that. 

On the other hand, I'm not too pleased with the seasoning of the wood and will definitely be getting ahead on next year's stash.  For this year I'm going to have to deal with the same headaches that most people do in their first year of burning. Luckily I have this forum to learn and help me along. 

When we were looking at this house I didn't  know anything about wood stoves and didn't care that the house had one. But now that I own the house and realize the potential for $$ saving with wood heat, the stove and fire wood have become my new obsession. My oil furnace has run less than 3 hours total since November 6th!


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## luv2byte (Dec 5, 2013)

I'd ask how he stacks & measures.  The looser the stack (space in between pieces) the less amt of wood though measurement can come out the same.  I would not be happy shorted that much, even if $150 is a good price - if I expect 2 cord, I want 2 cord or REALLY close that I could state its a matter of stacking methods.

We bought 6 cord @ $150/ delivered cord, from a guy in our neck of the woods, we got just a bit over.  When I called him I asked how he measures, he stacks tight on pallets that are 4x4 so he knows how big every stack is & he knows how old each pallet is.  He said that after its stacked & if we are concerned he will be happy to drop off more wood to make sure we are comfortable with what we bought.

We bought from two different guys a year before last, they also told us the same thing, one actually called to say he drove by, saw the wood was stacked & wante to be sure we were happy.

Short is short.  

fwiw...we got 3.5 cord maple, 1.5 fir, 2 cord alder  (we got the last of his fir & maple)


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## smoke eater (Dec 5, 2013)

the problem with some people is they try to get away with bs like that. the majority of the buyers won't say anything and the seller knows it. if he gets away with it, guess who's at fault? same thing applys to the people that are having a full blown conversation right behind you in the movie theater during the movie, etc... I was in the same shoes as you years ago. not only did I get shorted, but around 35 pieces were rotted. I called the seller and he said he would drop off more for me. yeah, yeah. 2 weeks go by and nothing. I took the rotted wood to his house and stacked it right in front of his door. I then left. the next day a truck pulled in my driveway and dumped around a 1/2 cord of primo wood.  its sad, but sometimes you have to speak up to correct others. btw, I don't go to movie theaters anymore and that load of wood was the last one I bought. good luck and oh yeah, welcome to this great site.


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## etiger2007 (Dec 6, 2013)

I too am done with taking less than I pay for.  For the longest I would "just let it go" I bought my Osburn insert last year and when it arrived the door would not seal after adjusting it, totally fed up with all the BS I spoke up and since then I have gotten a brand new door, and seals, still wasnt happy and got a brand new insert because I didnt settle for less than I paid for.  I guess my advise is dont be a kitty cat and get what you pay for.  Good luck.


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## weatherguy (Dec 6, 2013)

Considering the wood was cut so uneven and its hard to measure for $150 I think he did alright. I wouldn't buy from this guy again for two reasons though:
1) he shorted you and if he's been in business awhile he knows it.

2) they're cut uneven, that's irks me, I don't mind a few shorties mixed in but 90% of the wood should be pretty damn close to the size you ordered. I'm one of the most inexperienced people at cutting wood and I get almost all my splits with 1/2 inch of the size I want, sure I get some short ones that you always get because the wood isn't a multiple of the size you're cutting but that's quite a variance for an experienced cutter.


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## Bagelboy (Dec 6, 2013)

Like everything in life, Dave, it's a learning curve. You'll learn from this experience, and it will make you wiser when it comes to dealing with wood sellers. More likely, you'll eventually start doing your own. Take the quarter cord and shop elsewhere next time. Wood guys are a dime a dozen!


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## Bigg_Redd (Dec 6, 2013)

Dave K said:


> I kind of figured that I was shorted.   So the big question is... should I call this guy and complain?  He charged me $150 per cord because my house is only a few miles from his supply and it was a quick trip for him.  So i paid him $300 for this amount.  So $300 divided by 1.37 equals about _*$218 per cord.*_  Should I just deal with it this time and then mention it to him next time I order, or should I call him and ask him to bring me more wood because he shorted me?



Is it ready to burn?  That seems like a _very_ reasonable price for split and delivered and ready to burn.


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## Ducky (Dec 6, 2013)

I probably shouldn't say this, but I kiln dry my wood....lol

It all goes into a large non heated shed, which bakes during the summer...


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## maple1 (Dec 6, 2013)

Spend all your spare time building your wood collection for future use.

It might seem like a chore at first, but before you know it, it'll be an addiction. A healthy one, I think, that will pay big dividends - but still an addiction.

Don't ask me (us) how I (we) know...


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## Dave K (Dec 6, 2013)

Bigg_Redd said:


> Is it ready to burn?  That seems like a _very_ reasonable price for split and delivered and ready to burn.



For the most part.  If I load the stove with 5 of these pieces, usually 1 split will have a little sizzle.


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## Dave K (Dec 6, 2013)

maple1 said:


> Spend all your spare time building your wood collection for future use.
> 
> It might seem like a chore at first, but before you know it, it'll be an addiction. A healthy one, I think, that will pay big dividends - but still an addiction.
> 
> Don't ask me (us) how I (we) know...




that is the plan.  Unfortunately money is super tight right now because we just bought the house last month and Christmas is around the corner. I hope to have some extra funds in late January and I'm going to buy next years wood at that time.  I also check craigslist daily to get some free rounds that I can split by hand.


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## Bagelboy (Dec 6, 2013)

Maybe this will help get you started. Try calling some of your local tree guys. A lot of them don't even bother with splitting wood. Perhaps you can offer to give them like $50 for a truckload of wood that they have taken down. Or barter your trade. I own a bakery/deli, so I barter with one of my local tree guys. He drops me off a large truckload of wood now and then, and I give him a gift certificate for $100. In reality, it really costs me about $50. I split it, stack it, and use it 2 years from now. It's a great, cheaper way to load up for your future wood use.


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## maple1 (Dec 6, 2013)

Don't turn down or pass up on any free stuff, of any kind, at all.

If it needs a bunch of splitting, just horde it until you have enough to rent a splitter for a day. If it needs cut to length, just horde it until you have enough to justify a chainsaw purchase if you don't have one yet. Or rental, if you have to settle for not buying one (drag).


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## Dave K (Dec 6, 2013)

maple1 said:


> Don't turn down or pass up on any free stuff, of any kind, at all.
> 
> If it needs a bunch of splitting, just horde it until you have enough to rent a splitter for a day. If it needs cut to length, just horde it until you have enough to justify a chainsaw purchase if you don't have one yet. Or rental, if you have to settle for not buying one (drag).



Good advice, thanks.  I could always give my buddy a case of beer and I'm sure he'd bring his chainsaw over for me to use. 

As far as splitting, I could use the exercise so I'm going to try hoarding scrounged rounds and doing it the old fashion way for a workout.


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## Jon1270 (Dec 6, 2013)

Dave K said:


> As far as splitting, I could use the exercise so I'm going to try hoarding scrounged rounds and doing it the old fashion way for a workout.



Step 1: Learn to recognize American elm.
Step 2: Avoid acquiring any American elm big enough to need splitting.


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## Clyde S. Dale (Dec 6, 2013)

Jon1270 said:


> Step 1: Learn to recognize American elm.
> Step 2: Avoid acquiring any American elm big enough to need splitting.



Add Sweet Gum to the list.  I'm sure there is plenty of it over there in NJ.


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## maple1 (Dec 6, 2013)

Clyde S. Dale said:


> Add Sweet Gum to the list.  I'm sure there is plenty of it over there in NJ.


 
It will all burn when dry, and split with a splitter, even a rented one. Free wood is free wood.


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## tsquini (Dec 6, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> The biggest wood seller in this area covers his backside well. He delivers in a heaped truck and will tell you it is "Somewhere between 2 1/2 and 3 cords.". He has been selling wood two miles from me for 30 years in that same dump body so he knows darn well how much wood is in that truck. I have never bought wood from him but if I ever do I don't expect a stick over 2 1/2 cord.


Agree, professionals know exactly what they are delivering. They are not going to cut the self short.


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## Bigg_Redd (Dec 6, 2013)

Dave K said:


> For the most part.  If I load the stove with 5 of these pieces, usually 1 split will have a little sizzle.



Hmmm. . . I'd leave it alone


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## Jon1270 (Dec 6, 2013)

Dave K said:


> For the most part. If I load the stove with 5 of these pieces, usually 1 split will have a little sizzle.



Okay, so it's usable this year but not great -- probably as good as you can hope to do in your first year on short notice. Really, it's as good as many people ever do; standards here are high.  But it's worth looking ahead.  If you can't buy more of this mostly-dry stuff right now then focus your scrounging efforts on woods like cherry and soft maple, which stand a decent chance of being nice and dry a year from now if you get them split and stacked quickly.  Oak is lovely, but any green oak you acquire now is not going to help you through next winter, and many other woods will be like what you've got now -- okay, but not great.  Plan for greatness.


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## Bigg_Redd (Dec 6, 2013)

Jon1270 said:


> Okay, so it's usable this year but not great -- probably as good as you can hope to do *ever when buying wood. Ever. *



Agreed


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## maple1 (Dec 6, 2013)

You can have that wood a lot drier in a month or two (like, when you need the most heat from it) than it is now with some work & planning. Re-split small, pile inside in as warm an area as you can find for it, with some air movement maybe from a box fan on low. Rotate to fit your space.


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