# Wood Gasification Recommendations



## ivars (Oct 22, 2012)

Hello everyone:

I would appreciate thoughts on a wood gasification system to off-set propance costs.

I bought a house in Sunderland Vermont. It's 4700 square feet- 1st and 2nd floors- 1750 sq ft each, Basement- 1150 finished, 600 unfinished. 

The home was built in 2005, 2x6 construction, well insulated. The home is heated by a propane furnace through 3- zone forced air. The DHW is also heated by propane through a tankless water heater. The mechanicals are located in an unfinished area of the basement, which are feed by a underground, 1000 gallon propane tank.    

I would like to keep the current system as back-up and have a wood gasification boiler installed with water storage as the primary. I have access to an unlimited amount of wood and have no problem doing the work of cutting, splitting and stacking. 

I would like to keep the current system in case i'm away from the house for a period of time, to keep the house at 55 degrees, as recommended by my propane supplier. 

Propance costs me approximately $5,500 to $6,000 per year. 

If anyone has any ideas please let me know- boiler brand, sizing, water storage, installers, etc.

Thanks in advance.     Tim


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## maple1 (Oct 22, 2012)

I think all you need to know to make a decision is at hand in all the posts here - it'll just take a long time to get through all the reading. But it will be worth it. You would likely get various recommendations on specific units mainly due to peoples personal preferences with what they have. So even though I am quite partial to my unit, despite not having it up & running for very long - I would rather recommend immerse yourself in all the quality threads on here, and all the advertiser sites by clicking on their banners. Everyone has slightly different preferences & priorities used in selecting what they will ultimately get - otherwise we'd all have the same thing. For myself, simplicity & ability to easily function with loss of power (and use of less power under normal operation) were key.

But one thing is for sure - if I was spending that much on propane for heat (that's a lot!), I'd be definitely doing what you're doing & investigating something else. And a wood gasser would be the first thing I'd be checking out.

You're in the right place - prepare to lose countless hours to it.


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## ivars (Oct 22, 2012)

maple1 said:


> I think all you need to know to make a decision is at hand in all the posts here - it'll just take a long time to get through all the reading. But it will be worth it. You would likely get various recommendations on specific units mainly due to peoples personal preferences with what they have. So even though I am quite partial to my unit, despite not having it up & running for very long - I would rather recommend immerse yourself in all the quality threads on here, and all the advertiser sites by clicking on their banners. Everyone has slightly different preferences & priorities used in selecting what they will ultimately get - otherwise we'd all have the same thing. For myself, simplicity & ability to easily function with loss of power (and use of less power under normal operation) were key.
> 
> But one thing is for sure - if I was spending that much on propane for heat (that's a lot!), I'd be definitely doing what you're doing & investigating something else. And a wood gasser would be the first thing I'd be checking out.
> 
> You're in the right place - prepare to lose countless hours to it.


 

Thanks for taking the time replying to my post.

I have been reading posts from this web site for some months now. It's the reason that I joined yesterday. There are some very smart folks here. I'm learning a lot.  

I wanted to put out specific information about my house to get some ideas about sizing and hopes of finding an installer. 

Thanks again.   Tim


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## Gasifier (Oct 22, 2012)

ivars said:


> Thanks for taking the time replying to my post.
> 
> I have been reading posts from this web site for some months now. It's the reason that I joined yesterday. There are some very smart folks here. I'm learning a lot.
> 
> ...


 
Tim,

Whatever unit you decide on, put storage in, if you can afford it. If you can not, plan on it in the future with your plumbing and space. It is a huge benefit. If you don't want to spend so much money, look into plenty of storage and maybe finding a nice used gassification boilers. However, I would certainly recommend buying a new boiler from a reputable dealer in your area if you can afford that. That piece of mind is worth it for any problems you may have. But people sometimes buy gassers, and other wood burning appliances, and then decide they do not want the work associated with wood heating. Or they need a larger or smaller one. Several possible reasons. Anywho, I know two guys in the area that have recently bought used gassers. For one buy, he bought a very reputable gasser with the full chimney, some copper pipe, a circ. pump, and a boiler protection valve for $5000! Don't forget boiler protection valve. Keep us posted on what you decide and good luck to ya man.


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## Eric Johnson (Oct 22, 2012)

My only suggestion is that you start cutting wood now, because you're going to need very dry wood to run a gasifier correctly. Other than that, hot water storage will give you a lot more flexibility in the way of boiler sizing and operational strategies. If you can bring your propane costs down to near zero, which I think is a reasonable expectation with any good, properly sized gasifier burning dry wood, a nice setup will pay for itself in two to three years. Maybe sooner.


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## Gasifier (Oct 22, 2012)

Oh ya. Good call Eric. And you will want to do a couple of heat loss calculations and try to be certain you get the right size unit.


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## dogwood (Oct 22, 2012)

What kind of budget are you working with? That's a lot of space you'll be heating.


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## BoilerMan (Oct 22, 2012)

As far as installers go, where are you located?  Some members may be near you and could recommend someone....  Search Craigslist, I was one of the people Maple was talking about, I bought my boiler, and a bunch of supplies, all from a guy who was going to do the install, and became ill, had to sell everything.  Boiler never fired everything 100% new, sold the rest of the supplies (chimney, expansion tank, pex, fill valve, etc.)  Some supplies went with my old (3 years old) boiler which I sold on CL as well.  Look for deals, and as has been said, read, read, read.  Welcome, and we look forward to aiding a new soon to be addict!  LOL

TS


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## willyswagon (Oct 23, 2012)

Eric Johnson said:


> My only suggestion is that you start cutting wood now, because you're going to need very dry wood to run a gasifier correctly. Other than that, hot water storage will give you a lot more flexibility in the way of boiler sizing and operational strategies. If you can bring your propane costs down to near zero, which I think is a reasonable expectation with any good, properly sized gasifier burning dry wood, a nice setup will pay for itself in two to three years. Maybe sooner.


 

I couldn't agree more! As sooon as I started to seriously think about a gasser, I ordered 12 cord of wood. I'm hoping that will be enough for 2 yrs. I did not want to get caught burning less than dry wood.
I think if you start out by knowing your wood will be ready when you are, it allows you to focus on the other system issues( Boiler, storage, circ pumps......)
If you cut it at 18" it should be suitable for any system you buy, or be of a good size to sell later if you decide that burning wood is not for you. For instance I bought my wood for $90/cord before I even had my boiler knowing if I decided not to go ahead with it that I could sell it for $170/cord CSS in my yard this time of year.

Also if you cut your wood ahead of time it is a very easy, and cheap way to find out if the work of burning wood is for you. I know a few people that have installed a system,  bought wood and not realized how much work it is to stack wood little own carry it in feed a fire etc


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## infinitymike (Oct 23, 2012)

Welcome aboard brother.

The are so many possibilities, options and extras you can do. I know dry wood is extremely important but I waited until I knew which unit I was getting so I could have my wood the exact size I needed. 

I really like the Wood Gun. I mean why wouldn't I, it's the first unit I ever bought to heat my house with wood so I have nothing else to compare it to.

A house that size you might need an E140 or even an E180.

What sold me about the Wood Gun is the manufactures claim that I *"don't need"* storage. If you hang around here a little bit you"ll understand why I italicized that.
It also takes splits up to 26" and has a 60 gallons of water moving around it.
And lets not forget the most important feature...IT DOESN'T IDLE another topic that will be disputed here but us WG owners know the truth first hand.

Most importantly take your time and do your homework.  After my experience I wouldn't recommend trying to rush and get it installed before this season.

Stick around, more will be revealed.


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## nrcrash (Oct 23, 2012)

infinitymike said:


> Welcome aboard brother.
> 
> The are so many possibilities, options and extras you can do. I know dry wood is extremely important but I waited until I knew which unit I was getting so I could have my wood the exact size I needed.
> 
> ...


 
Ya, the Wood Gun doesn't idle, instead comes with little elves that will relight the wood when it goes out if your not using storage.  Really nice feature!  I went with the vigas because it come with Santa Claus, so I don't need to do any Christmas shopping.  He'll just take care of it for me!!


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## jebatty (Oct 23, 2012)

You may be able to narrow your focus quickly if you look at what water temperature you will need to supply the heat (btu's) required for the comfort you want. You will be adding a water-to-air heat exchanger (wahx) in the plenum and you will be sizing this for those btu's. Design will be based on your propane furnace blower cfm through the additional wahx, air temperature in, air temperature out, temperature of hot water in, and gallons per minute (gpm) of hot water flow at that temperature. I suggest planning a wahx size to use the lowest possible water temperature. Many are spec'd at 180 or 200F. If you could use 160F or even 140F water you would gain much flexibility in your gasification boiler choice and design options. If you end up needing 180F water minimum, storage will not be much of a factor in providing heat between burn periods of your boiler, as most gasification boilers have a maximum output not much over 180F, and you may need to burn nearly continuously to supply hot water at the needed temperature.

Hot water heat from whatever heat source excels when the heat emitters can operate at low hot water temperatures and still provide the heat you need. Probably the best in this regard is in floor radiant which often can operate well at water temps down to 100F.


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## ivars (Oct 23, 2012)

dogwood said:


> What kind of budget are you working with? That's a lot of space you'll be heating.


 
Regarding the cost of the equipment and installation; I'm trying to stay around the $25,000.00 mark. However, I can go higher if necessary. I'm looking for quality and I know you have to pay for it.

I won't know what I'm getting into exactly, until I have an installer out to take a look. My basement is ground level on one side and there is sliding door access. Whatever I decide has to fit through the sliding door and through another doorway into the unfinished area of my basement.

My current propane furnance vents outside by PVC, which runs to the ceiling, then takes a right angle and runs outside from there. I don't know if they can tie the boiler into that, or a chimney will have to be installed. 

My wife and I really liked the house. We bought it last year. We live in California and will be moving into the house (Sunderland, Vermont)  in about 8 months. I have a caretaker watching over it. I was told to keep the thermostat at 55 to protect the house. It cost me $4,500.00 last year to heat that vacant house. This winter it may be more, as I was told the last winter was mild. Due to that cost, the first thing I'm going to have done, is to have a gasification system installed. 

The person I bought the home from, paid between $5,000- $6,000 per year for propane. Obviously the increase is due to the temperature setting, because he was living in the house, coupled with the fact that there were four people using hot water. 

I am very happy to be a member of this site. Most of my research led me here. There are some very smart and kind folks on this site. I'm trying to absorb all the information that I can. I hope to support one of the site sponsors when I make the purchase.

Thanks.  Tim


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## muncybob (Oct 23, 2012)

With a $25k budget you probably have many choices. The size of the entry door was also something we had to contend with since I did not want to have to rip anything out so that baically narrowed the field down for us. Getting dry wood may be a bit tricky for you since you won't actually be there for another 8 months, but if there is somebody that can start on this for you I would make it happen....you don't want to spend that kind of $$ on a heating system only to be disappointed in performance due to wet wood.


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## maple1 (Oct 23, 2012)

The wood supply has been covered already (start as soon as possible, even before you start doing any boiler related work). The second issue I would say is chimney, you will need one (cannot direct vent) - sounds like you don't have one? That should be the main infrastructure requirement - might require the most planning ahead depending on the house layout & potential locations for one.

You should be able to get a nice setup in for less than you have budgeted.


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## flyingcow (Oct 23, 2012)

Just curious, someone have a rough conversion of propane to wood using a gasser? 

For instance, I was burning 1000 gals of heating oil. Someone on this site supplied these numbers- For every 150gals of oil figure a cord of well seasoned wood. And was told once i got used to running the Innova, could push 175 gals to wood ratio. This was spot on.

This would give ivars a rough number for needed wood storage, and usage. These figures helped me figure my ROI, and what to expect.

Also, jebatty put some very good thoughts on your system. Water hx's will suck up some btu's. just like my hotwater baseboard does.


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## ivars (Oct 23, 2012)

jebatty said:


> You may be able to narrow your focus quickly if you look at what water temperature you will need to supply the heat (btu's) required for the comfort you want. You will be adding a water-to-air heat exchanger (wahx) in the plenum and you will be sizing this for those btu's. Design will be based on your propane furnace blower cfm through the additional wahx, air temperature in, air temperature out, temperature of hot water in, and gallons per minute (gpm) of hot water flow at that temperature. I suggest planning a wahx size to use the lowest possible water temperature. Many are spec'd at 180 or 200F. If you could use 160F or even 140F water you would gain much flexibility in your gasification boiler choice and design options. If you end up needing 180F water minimum, storage will not be much of a factor in providing heat between burn periods of your boiler, as most gasification boilers have a maximum output not much over 180F, and you may need to burn nearly continuously to supply hot water at the needed temperature.
> 
> Hot water heat from whatever heat source excels when the heat emitters can operate at low hot water temperatures and still provide the heat you need. Probably the best in this regard is in floor radiant which often can operate well at water temps down to 100F.


 
Thanks Jim:

This is the reason I joined this site. Great information! Your reply also lets me know- I have a lot to learn.
My goal is to get some ideas on the best equipment and set-up, i..e. boiler type, size, water storage. After that, I'm going to have to rely on whoever I choose to install the equipment, because most of this is beyond my technical knowledge.

Thanks. Tim
"_The happiest people don’t have the best of everything, they just make the best of everything they have._"


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## ivars (Oct 23, 2012)

maple1 said:


> The wood supply has been covered already (start as soon as possible, even before you start doing any boiler related work). The second issue I would say is chimney, you will need one (cannot direct vent) - sounds like you don't have one? That should be the main infrastructure requirement - might require the most planning ahead depending on the house layout & potential locations for one.
> 
> You should be able to get a nice setup in for less than you have budgeted.


 
Thanks.

You answered two of my questions, regarding chimney and price.

Tim


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## ivars (Oct 23, 2012)

muncybob said:


> With a $25k budget you probably have many choices. The size of the entry door was also something we had to contend with since I did not want to have to rip anything out so that baically narrowed the field down for us. Getting dry wood may be a bit tricky for you since you won't actually be there for another 8 months, but if there is somebody that can start on this for you I would make it happen....you don't want to spend that kind of $$ on a heating system only to be disappointed in performance due to wet wood.


 
Thanks for the advice.

I realize that I won't have time to cut and dry the wood properly before the first winter. I will have to buy the wood the first season, but i'm okay with that. I learned a long time ago that it's not a perfect world.

My brother is a licensed HVAC contractor in Albany, New York, but I don't want to bother him. He has his own family to tend to, and it's a 90 minute drive from his house to Sunderland Vermont. I hope to find a good local installer. From what I have learned, the installer is as or more important than the equipment he installs.  

Thanks.  Tim


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## stee6043 (Oct 23, 2012)

I didn't pour through all of the above so I apologize if this has already been mentioned/suggested.

If I was in your situation I do belive I'd consider no boiler other than a Garn.  It may not have the latest and greatest gadgetry, sensors and/or displays but it has something few other boilers have - uber simplicity.  Self contained storage, direct vent capability and it is very cost competitive if you have the room for it.


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## ivars (Oct 23, 2012)

stee6043 said:


> I didn't pour through all of the above so I apologize if this has already been mentioned/suggested.
> 
> If I was in your situation I do belive I'd consider no boiler other than a Garn. It may not have the latest and greatest gadgetry, sensors and/or displays but it has something few other boilers have - uber simplicity. Self contained storage, direct vent capability and it is very cost competitive if you have the room for it.


 
Thanks for the recommendation:

I really like the Garn also. But, having done some reading, I don't see how I could get it into the space where I need it. It would have to go through a sliding door, then through a doorway. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks.  Tim


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## maple1 (Oct 23, 2012)

A Garn can be direct vented? It wouldn't need a chimney? I hadn't heard that one before - that's a plus if so.


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## stee6043 (Oct 23, 2012)

ivars said:


> Thanks for the recommendation:
> 
> I really like the Garn also. But, having done some reading, I don't see how I could get it into the space where I need it. It would have to go through a sliding door, then through a doorway. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> Thanks. Tim


 
With your budget you could easily remove and replace a few walls.  Are your basement ceilings tall enough?  If so, I'd reach out to a local contractor and get a quote on the construction required.  Might be a lot cheaper and easier than you may think.  Great excuse to replace that slider with something bigger and more "grand".  ha.


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## stee6043 (Oct 23, 2012)

maple1 said:


> A Garn can be direct vented? It wouldn't need a chimney? I hadn't heard that one before - that's a plus if so.


 
www.garn.com

And for the record I don't own one.  But it's what I'd buy if I had room....


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## maple1 (Oct 23, 2012)

OK - it requires a 6in. insulated flue that can go out or up. I don't think that's a 'typical' direct vent (wouldn't be able to use existing propane direct vent?) - but it's not a typical chimney either.


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## ivars (Oct 23, 2012)

stee6043 said:


> With your budget you could easily remove and replace a few walls. Are your basement ceilings tall enough? If so, I'd reach out to a local contractor and get a quote on the construction required. Might be a lot cheaper and easier than you may think. Great excuse to replace that slider with something bigger and more "grand". ha.


 

Thanks, that's something to consider. I wrote-off the Garn because of the expense of creating acess for it.

I live in Los Angeles (For another 8-9 months, anyway). Everything is expensive here. Hopefully Vermont will cost less.

I take it that you believe that the expense of construction- changing the sliding door and interior door way to accommodate the Garn, might be comparable in price to installing a gasification boiler and water storage system?


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## mikefrommaine (Oct 23, 2012)

Garn calls for 9' of ceiling height to access the manhole. Which rules out most basements.

Though if I cold have convinced the wife I would have lowered the basement floor to make it fit.


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## rkusek (Oct 23, 2012)

I know a lot of folks put boilers in their basements but if you don't already have a chimney to use I think you would be better off building a $2000 boiler/wood shed.  Many of these gassers have the possibly of letting smoke into the house while loading which can drive you crazy.  Check out everyone building the smoke hoods and exhaust vents.  If you have ever burned with wood then you may be comfortable with what I call the "wood mess".  Granted it can be kept clean but it is a full time job with all the handling and shop vac cleanup.  You still have to do this in your shed but at least it is a shed not a house.  My two cents although I know a lot of people have no problem with that in the home (ie. think happy wife. ...).  The Garn is usually the best choice for someone than afford the initial cost upfront since they storage is integrated.  With existing propane forced air, it may not be the best choice for W/A heat exchangers and it may be costly to add radiant or rad panels to a home of your size.  Heaterman would be the expert to answer this and I'm sure he will chime in.  It may be that by oversizing the W/A h/x's you can overcome this.  My home is similar in size, a 2200 sq.ft. walkout ranch with 2 sides of the basement totally above ground.  My highest bill on the coldest winter (pre-boiler, Jan 2010 I think) was only $257 using a 5 ton air source heat pump with electric backup.  The propane usage on your home seems outrageous for a newer well insulated home and should be looked into as well.  Either way a gasser with storage/Garn is going to save you a lot of money and pay for itself in just few years.


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## maple1 (Oct 23, 2012)

Not everyone is building smoke hoods. 

My new unit allowed me to get rid of mine - and I wouldn't have it anywhere else but the basement. Aside from being able to feed it in my robe & slippers, the chimney height from there up through the two floors above allowed me to go natural with the draft. But like has been said, different strokes for different folks & situations. There are a TON of considerations. I actually second guess my whole install once in a while & wonder if I'd been better off putting mini-splits in, what with moderating climates & all that stuff. Those thoughts don't last long, I'm happy with what I did (although not done yet), but something else to consider.


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## dogwood (Oct 23, 2012)

Ivars, look up some of pybyrs old posts where he special ordered an especially large w/a heat exchanger. If you are going with an in-plenum hx you are going to need a very large one with 4700 square feet. I can't for sure remember the name of the company he used (maybe National?) and I'm not home to look it up. They will size one out for you based on your heating load once you complete your heat loss calculations. I got mine from them, but would much rather have gone with Euro style low temp panel rads if I had to do it over. Much lower install cost I would think than in-floor radiant.might be.


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## infinitymike (Oct 23, 2012)

FYI you should be able to leave the frame and take just the panels out of any sliding door giving you full access.



nrcrash said:


> Ya, the Wood Gun doesn't idle, instead comes with little elves that will relight the wood when it goes out if your not using storage. Really nice feature! I went with the vigas because it come with Santa Claus, so I don't need to do any Christmas shopping. He'll just take care of it for me!!


 
Thanks but they told me it was gremlins and I didn't believe until I snapped a picture of him in action.


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## Gasifier (Oct 23, 2012)

nrcrash said:


> Ya, the Wood Gun doesn't idle, instead comes with little elves that will relight the wood when it goes out if your not using storage. Really nice feature! I went with the vigas because it come with Santa Claus, so I don't need to do any Christmas shopping. He'll just take care of it for me!!


 
Ahhh. What the _ _ _ _? Not one of you guys told me the Vigas came with Santa Claus. I would have gotten that one dammit!


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## jebatty (Oct 23, 2012)

I think asking at this stage for recommendation on a particular gasification boiler are premature. In you situation with a wahx fan coil, hot forced air system, your critical determination is temperature of water you need and gpm flow requirements. For example, as mentioned above, if it turns out that you need approximately 180F water, no matter what boiler you get will need to burned almost continuously and storage will serve primarily as a buffer and not much as storage at a water temperature you need (160F water in storage will not help much if you need 180F water).

If you need high temperature water, perhaps even160F and above, a boiler with an internal water of 50-100 gallons likely will be far more responsive in delivering that water than will a boiler with a high volume internal water. This though isn't black and white, and it also will depend on flow rates. That's why I think you need, in your situation, to put first things first: 1) what temperature water do you need and 2) what is the gpm flow requirement for that water. Answering those two questions will guide subsequent decisions on boiler brand and other components in your system.


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## 711mhw (Oct 23, 2012)

FWIW , I run my WG off at 210, on at 180,  60 gal boiler cap.


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## infinitymike (Oct 23, 2012)

711mhw said:


> FWIW , I run my WG off at 210, on at 180,  60 gal boiler cap.



More proof the WoodGun is the ultimate burning machine


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## Gasifier (Oct 23, 2012)

711mhw said:


> FWIW , I run my WG off at 210, on at 180, 60 gal boiler cap.


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## stee6043 (Oct 24, 2012)

While I do agree that higher temps are better for us forced air guys, I don't really think it's a deal breaker for storage (or for a Garn for that matter).  I can run my storage temps down to 140 and still get heat to the house.  The furnace fan definitely runs longer but it's still keeping up.  And I have a crappy run-of-the-mill heat exchanger in my plenum.  If I had a proper coil like some folks are running I bet I could even go below 140.

You can also include me in the no smoke hood, burner indoor crowd.  There is a learning curve for smoke free operation but once you're there, it's pure greatness.


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## ivars (Oct 24, 2012)

rkusek said:


> I know a lot of folks put boilers in their basements but if you don't already have a chimney to use I think you would be better off building a $2000 boiler/wood shed. Many of these gassers have the possibly of letting smoke into the house while loading which can drive you crazy. Check out everyone building the smoke hoods and exhaust vents. If you have ever burned with wood then you may be comfortable with what I call the "wood mess". Granted it can be kept clean but it is a full time job with all the handling and shop vac cleanup. You still have to do this in your shed but at least it is a shed not a house. My two cents although I know a lot of people have no problem with that in the home (ie. think happy wife. ...). The Garn is usually the best choice for someone than afford the initial cost upfront since they storage is integrated. With existing propane forced air, it may not be the best choice for W/A heat exchangers and it may be costly to add radiant or rad panels to a home of your size. Heaterman would be the expert to answer this and I'm sure he will chime in. It may be that by oversizing the W/A h/x's you can overcome this. My home is similar in size, a 2200 sq.ft. walkout ranch with 2 sides of the basement totally above ground. My highest bill on the coldest winter (pre-boiler, Jan 2010 I think) was only $257 using a 5 ton air source heat pump with electric backup. The propane usage on your home seems outrageous for a newer well insulated home and should be looked into as well. Either way a gasser with storage/Garn is going to save you a lot of money and pay for itself in just few years.


 
Thanks for the advice;

I was driving home from work yesterday, talking to my brother, who is a HVAC contracted in the Albany, New York area. He has the same opinion as you, and gave the same reasons. I'm going to have to look into that, especially if the Garn can be housed in an unheated building? 

I'm glad I joined this site. I have leaned a bunch. Narrowing the choice will be difficult.

Thanks. Tim


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## ivars (Oct 24, 2012)

rkusek said:


> I know a lot of folks put boilers in their basements but if you don't already have a chimney to use I think you would be better off building a $2000 boiler/wood shed. Many of these gassers have the possibly of letting smoke into the house while loading which can drive you crazy. Check out everyone building the smoke hoods and exhaust vents. If you have ever burned with wood then you may be comfortable with what I call the "wood mess". Granted it can be kept clean but it is a full time job with all the handling and shop vac cleanup. You still have to do this in your shed but at least it is a shed not a house. My two cents although I know a lot of people have no problem with that in the home (ie. think happy wife. ...). The Garn is usually the best choice for someone than afford the initial cost upfront since they storage is integrated. With existing propane forced air, it may not be the best choice for W/A heat exchangers and it may be costly to add radiant or rad panels to a home of your size. Heaterman would be the expert to answer this and I'm sure he will chime in. It may be that by oversizing the W/A h/x's you can overcome this. My home is similar in size, a 2200 sq.ft. walkout ranch with 2 sides of the basement totally above ground. My highest bill on the coldest winter (pre-boiler, Jan 2010 I think) was only $257 using a 5 ton air source heat pump with electric backup. The propane usage on your home seems outrageous for a newer well insulated home and should be looked into as well. Either way a gasser with storage/Garn is going to save you a lot of money and pay for itself in just few years.


 
rkusek:

The house is 4700 squared feet finished/ heated space. propane costs approximately $5500/ year.


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## rkusek (Oct 24, 2012)

ivars said:


> rkusek:
> 
> The house is 4700 squared feet finished/ heated space. propane costs approximately $5500/ year.


 I heated 4400 for probably less than 1/5th of that in 2010 before the boiler.  Vermont might have a little colder climate but not that much.  Doesn't this seem rather high to anyone else?


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## mikefrommaine (Oct 24, 2012)

rkusek said:


> I heated 4400 for probably less than 1/5th of that in 2010 before the boiler.  Vermont might have a little colder climate but not that much.  Doesn't this seem rather high to anyone else?



Here in Maine those numbers would be reasonable.
We can go a week or more with daytime temps never getting above 0 F. Doesn't happen every winter in southern Maine, but not unheard of.  I'd imagine Vermont to be similar.


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## wardk (Oct 24, 2012)

ivars said:


> Thanks for the recommendation:
> 
> I really like the Garn also. But, having done some reading, I don't see how I could get it into the space where I need it. It would have to go through a sliding door, then through a doorway. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> Thanks. Tim


Tim I have put in a Garn this year, it is super simple put as much wood as you can get in the fire box up to 12" splits  start it light it and let her rip,I love it.Doing the work my self with a little help from family and friends it came in around your budget but that was with it's own building and attached 10 cord wood shed. I replaced a forced air wood furnace, not having firewood in the basement anymore sure is nice. good luck


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## Gasifier (Oct 24, 2012)

This is always an interesting conversation. Put your boiler inside or outside? The reason I find it more interesting now is that I still am not 100% about how I would do it if I had to do it again.  I went with the boiler inside in my basement and now I do not know if I would do it again like that if I were building new or in Tim's position. Probably would put it in a boiler room in the garage that is attached to the house if building new. So I could walk out in the evening and again in the morning to load it and stay inside the entire time. It is nice to be able to go down in my shorts and a pair of slippers and load it up twice a day. But I still love the fact that the heat that radiates off my boiler is helping to heat my house and not a building outside that I do not need heated. A waste of energy which leads to more wood, more wood processing, more work for me, more emmisions, etc. etc. In fact, with the size boiler that I went with for this big house I think my boiler would have a hard time heating the place in the really cold weather. But this way every bit of heat the boiler puts out is going into my house, besides what goes up the stack of course. So I like to think I went with just the right size boiler. In other threads I have talked about how nice those old radiators are and how much I like them. A slow constant heat. Well my boiler and tank slowly radiate heat off into the basement and that slowly goes up through the house. A really big pair of radiators.

Then there is Tim's situation with forced air already in place. My friend has a place up in the Adirondacks and is getting ready to put a wood burning appliance in that will heat the entire house. He has forced air in place already as well. I told him to consider everything. Look into the outside wood gassification boilers, inside wood gassification boilers, and also take a look at the Kuuma's. I have no experience with them. But to be able to put a forced air, high efficiency wood burner in, and hook up the plenum to the existing plenum is pretty simple. Shorter burn times though. (~8 hours) And at about $5000 for the large unit and then installation cost, you might be able to get it all done for $7000 and have a pretty nice set up. Like I said to him though Tim, take your time and consider all options. You are in a good situation with that kind of budget. Sure would be nice to put a lot of storage in and burn a fire once every three days, and even when it is cold, once every day and a half or two!


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## wardk (Oct 24, 2012)

dogwood said:


> Ivars, look up some of pybyrs old posts where he special ordered an especially large w/a heat exchanger. If you are going with an in-plenum hx you are going to need a very large one with 4700 square feet. I can't for sure remember the name of the company he used (maybe National?) and I'm not home to look it up. They will size one out for you based on your heating load once you complete your heat loss calculations. I got mine from them, but would much rather have gone with Euro style low temp panel rads if I had to do it over. Much lower install cost I would think than in-floor radiant.might be.


I put a 160k WA ex @ 180F in the plenum, it still warms the house with 120 water in the morning, of course it's not winter yet, installed a cast iron rad in the older and cooler wing of the house yesterday, thats nice heat.


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## skfire (Oct 24, 2012)

maple1 said:


> Not everyone is building smoke hoods.
> 
> r.


 
ZERO smoke in the basement or house with the Froling.

Scott


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## goosegunner (Oct 24, 2012)

I agree that there is a lot of talk here about needing very hot water for water to Forced air heat exchangers.  My experience with mine has not been the case.  I can heat down to 130 degree water. 

I have seen setups where they take 2 exchangers and fabricate them into a A coil.

I recently spoke with a guy that pushes and installs Geo thermal systems. He said the max water temp they can get for the air coil is 110 degrees. Claims that with high air volume it works great and is more comfortable. From what I have learned here I would disagree that high air volume of cool is more comfortable.



gg


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## maple1 (Oct 24, 2012)

I'd agree with that - I find any noticeable air movement discomforting.


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## dogwood (Oct 24, 2012)

Ivars, check out the w/a hx in this thread: .https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/25090/. I think this hx will put out usable heat down to 140 degrees. That's what the similarly designed hx Nationwide Coils built for me is rated for. By the way my 3000 sq. ft home's propane bill was, $4500 last year, and that's in Virginia. That's what motivated us, like you, to get a gasser. Propane rates dropped $1500 this year. Still well worth it if I could finally get the install finished.

Mike


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## maple1 (Oct 24, 2012)

Main first decisions to make: inside or outside, hot air furnace or hot water boiler. I'm glad I was starting with an existing hot water system and refined (from years of trial & error) basement entrance wood supply system - I would have been another good 5 years deciding what to do starting from where you're at.


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## BoilerMan (Oct 27, 2012)

What is your propane gallon useage?  5,500 dollars for how many gallons? 

TS


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## gimmegas (Dec 27, 2013)

maple1 said:


> Not everyone is building smoke hoods.
> 
> My new unit allowed me to get rid of mine - and I wouldn't have it anywhere else but the basement. Aside from being able to feed it in my robe & slippers, the chimney height from there up through the two floors above allowed me to go natural with the draft. But like has been said, different strokes for different folks & situations. There are a TON of considerations. I actually second guess my whole install once in a while & wonder if I'd been better off putting mini-splits in, what with moderating climates & all that stuff. Those thoughts don't last long, I'm happy with what I did (although not done yet), but something else to consider.





maple1 said:


> Not everyone is building smoke hoods.
> 
> Maple, I may have asked you this before, but what size is your house that you are heating? The reason I ask is that, like you, I want to go with a natural draft. I will be going up through two floors and a roof so I should also have enough draft. I will be heating about 3000 sq ft of living space w/ radiant heat.  I was surprised to find a Varmebaronen dealer not too far away. Was originally going to get a Biomass but decided that there seemed to be a lot of issues w/ fans and such. Also, do you heat your domestic water w/ it? Mini-splits? What are they?


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## maple1 (Dec 28, 2013)

I have 2700 sq ft on two storeys, plus unfinished basement. 20 year old construction on windy hilltop. 30ft insulated stainless chimney. Also heat dhw with it yes except for the hottest couple months of summer. I have no regrets, would recommend to anyone who has enough chimney. Mini-split = ductless air source heat pump.

This new tablet is a pita to type on...


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## bpirger (Dec 28, 2013)

I have a Garn 1500 outside in an unheated, as of now uninsulated building.  I built a box around the Garn and insulated the Garn itself with fiberglass...about R100 by the time you are outside the box.  I love it.  One fire a day to heat my place and all the DHW.  In summer, one fire every 4 days.  About 6 long showers (10 mins plus) per day and 2 loads of laundry.  I have all radiant heat, so I can use water down to 100 or so nicely.  We love the Garn and it has been rock solid.

That said, based on my experience and my understanding (but no experience) that a water to air HX is going to need high temps, I wouldn't recommend the Garn.  My experience shows the higher temps don't last that long....and I don't know how much heat you will get from it once it drops below 160.  Well, we can all calculate, but my experience tells me it would not be satisfactory.  Seems to me like you'd be burning longer and more often than you should.  If I was running water to air HX, I'd be running some smaller boiler that has a "constant" fire.

I do vote for the outdoor install though.  To me, the walk outside is nothing comared to the potential smoke/mess/problems in the house.  I've burned wood in a stove all my life, and was doing that prior to the Garn.  I also had a little brother die in a house fire long ago....not wood burning related....and I'm a little anal when it comes to fire prevention.  If possible, do whatever to prevent.

But, all that aside, I'd be concerned about the lower temp water not getting you the heat you need when it is cold and over 12 hours since that last fire in the Garn.  Dectra suggest 190 as a Garn tank target.  Measuring this at the wells on the tank, the bottom of the tank doesn't reach this level, there is a significant gradient (though I only have the well sensor, nothing up the side).  So you don't really have 1500 (or whatever size) gallons of 190 water.  For radiant, I don't think it can be beat.  But for forced air HX, I suspect it would be a bummer.  Of course if you oversize the HX massively then you should be able to dip to lower temps.  But how low?  140?  130?  Maybe....others will have more experience with this.

My two cents.....

If you had radiant, I'd say to remove the door and whatever (within reason) to get the Garn in.  But with the air, I would likely vote against.

Also, if you have sliding door access for bringing wood inside, you might want to change that door to something you can readily roll a cart or something over.  Carrying in by hand (bucket or otherwsie) over the threshold 6-7 cord a year is a bummer....been there before.  An overhead door is ideal....roll the tractor cart right in.  Just another thought.....

Enjoy leaving SoCal!  I limit myself professionally incredibly by not joining the mess in the Bay area or SoCal...but living out there just sucks (to me) compared to a place like Vermont!  I'd so much rather deal with 12' of snow a year than 6 million people and endless blacktop and concrete.  My opinion of course!  If you are sellign a home you bought long ago, take that and enjoy life in a beautiful place like Vermont!  Keeping the mess outside is valuable....as is the peace of mind.


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## gimmegas (Dec 28, 2013)

maple1 said:


> I have 2700 sq ft on two storeys, plus unfinished basement. 20 year old construction on windy hilltop. 30ft insulated stainless chimney. Also heat dhw with it yes except for the hottest couple months of summer. I have no regrets, would recommend to anyone who has enough chimney. Mini-split = ductless air source heat pump.
> 
> This new tablet is a pita to type on...


Yeah, it's been awhile since I've been here and the newer look is a little confusing. My basement will be finished (in time) so it sounds like I might have to get a larger model. What do you think? The guy I talked to told me w/ the larger one I won't have to feed it as much w/ the right amt. of storage. Fewer trips up/down stairs will be a plus as I put on the years. He mentioned something like 800 gal. Does that sound about right to you? Also, how many cords did you go through last winter? I'm sure it depends on the type of winter. How's it been up your way so far this year? I'm just trying to get prepared. I've got about 8 cords in logs laying on the ground now. I'll probably need a back-up system. Do you have an alternate system... gas,oil??? I'm glad you can heat your dhw w/ it too. Just another bonus.


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