# Outdoor forced air experience?



## rogdan (Jan 14, 2015)

Hello,

 I am a new member to this forum and am considering one of the forced air out door systems. I am leaning toward the Fire Chief/Shelter unit but also considering the Hopsco among others.
 There is little information out there on these systems so and looking for feedback from uses of these type of furnaces.
I am heating my home with forced air propane currently about 2000 sq ft well insulated and will be adding on my 1200 sq ft as of yet uninsulated basement in USDA zone 5a.
 I am not considering indoor units to appease the insurance co. and allergy sufferers including myself. I will locate the furnace close to the home and run a class A chimney the full two stories to eliminate as much of the smoke issue outdoors as well one reason for not considering a short stacked boiler

Thanks


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## dspoon19 (Jan 14, 2015)

One of my buddies installed one of these last season. He hated the unit and sold it this past summer. They eat wood worse than a non gasification boiler.  He went thru almost 16 cords last winter. Well insulated 2300 sq ft kept at 66F. He had to buy wood so that cost broke even with propane costs.


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## BoilerMan (Jan 14, 2015)

Don't do it PERIOD.   

Use a boiler and a HX in the LP furnace plenum.  OR  Get a Kumma, Caddy, or some type of high efficiency scorched air rig to go _inside the building.  _

_Just my opinion..._

TS


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## laynes69 (Jan 14, 2015)

While bringing in wood and having ash could cause some allergies, with a proper chimney and some simple housekeeping, it shouldn't be a problem. Just use common sense and don't bring in a cord of wood into the house, or be careless with the ashes. With 2000 sqft of well insulated area, even a Tundra which is not that expensive would easily heat your home. The radiant heat alone from the furnace would heat your basement. I've seen a few outdoor forced air furnaces around here, and the amount of wood they burn is ridiculous.


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## woodsmaster (Jan 14, 2015)

I don't know much about the forced air outdoor furnaces. What I do Know is that most insurance companies want an outdoor furnace at least 30' from any building. I also Know that water is a much more efficient way to move heat then air. At 30" away I think you will lose a significant amount of heat to the outside. It will also take significant amount of electric to run the fans


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## rogdan (Jan 14, 2015)

Interesting info, thanks for the replies.
dspoon19, do you recall how far your friends unit was from the home or the maker?
I'm getting clarification from the insurance, I switched once and don't remember for sure if it was the current or previous company that would not allow a solid fuel in home system. I also want to avoid smoke in the home as the kids can't tolerate it, we basically can not visit friends with wood stoves in the winter.


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## dspoon19 (Jan 14, 2015)

It was right next to house. Maybe 3 feet. He ran chimney up past roof line. Worst part of install was the 2 monster ducts running through the outside wall. 

Water has a specific heat of almost 4x that of air, keep that in mind when making your decision.


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## dspoon19 (Jan 14, 2015)

From my experiences and reading these hot air furnaces use almost double the wood that a non gasification boiler would and 4 times what a gasification boiler with storage would use. Get a hydronic appliance, it will save tons of time, wood, and money.


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## philupthegastank (Jan 16, 2015)

my neighbor uses an outdoor wood boiler for his trailer and shop, for heating and hot water, used 24 cords of wood last year. in northern wi.


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## bioman (Jan 16, 2015)

Hot air is from your local coffee shop! Hot water is for heating your house! Good luck in your decisions.


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## DoubleB (Jan 16, 2015)

rogdan said:


> I'm getting clarification from the insurance, I switched once and don't remember for sure if it was the current or previous company that would not allow a solid fuel in home system.



Don't be discouraged if your current insurance company won't allow a solid fuel appliance in the house.  There are several other reputable companies that do.


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## heatingcostssuck (Jan 16, 2015)

I just couldn't get over cutting the holes that this thing needs through a wall.

Are you avoiding boilers due to cost, or experience?


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## heaterman (Jan 18, 2015)

I have never encountered a single user of an outdoor forced air furnace that was happy with their decision. Overall system efficiency with those things unless _extreme_ insulating and sealing measures are taken has to be well below 20%. 
You simply cannot believe how much heat can be lost from an outdoor steel duct even wrapped with insulation. I see people use insulated flex duct for this purpose and invariably the mice and other varmints have chewed their way into it within weeks.


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## rogdan (Jan 18, 2015)

Primary concern is the smoke indoors but also outdoors as I often see and smell it laying on the ground from the short stacked boilers.


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## rogdan (Jan 18, 2015)

Getting above $5000 in total cost eats into payback considering I get by in $1500 in propane in an average winter but I am not heating the basement now.


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## rogdan (Jan 18, 2015)

Simplicity is also key to have the average HVAC guy do the install and less complications down the road from a less complicated system.
I'm close to Horizon's and have considered their boilers but there seems to be a myriad of small issues with users, also indoors though.


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## maple1 (Jan 18, 2015)

rogdan said:


> Getting above $5000 in total cost eats into payback considering I get by in $1500 in propane in an average winter but I am not heating the basement now.



I would burn propane before installing an outdoor air furnace.


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## heatingcostssuck (Jan 18, 2015)

What about an Air-Source Heat Pump?  I have no clue what the install costs are, but they also serve as air-conditioners from what I read.

Edit note:  There are cold climate air-to-air heat pumps that can work at temperatures around -20 degrees celcius.

Looking at what I can see here they cost about 10k to install.


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## duramaxman05 (Jan 18, 2015)

My inlaws have a bryan forced air outdoor furnace. They like it and its pretty effecient.


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## rogdan (Jan 18, 2015)

duramaxman05 said:


> My inlaws have a bryan forced air outdoor furnace. They like it and its pretty effecient.



 Could you give any details of their set up? like distance the furnace is from the home and what state they are in?
Thanks


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## Firefighter938 (Jan 19, 2015)

Just following this thread.


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## rogdan (Jan 19, 2015)

Welcome, not many users of these out there it seems.
What are you considering?


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## BoilerMan (Jan 19, 2015)

rogdan said:


> Primary concern is the smoke indoors but also outdoors as I often see and smell it laying on the ground from the short stacked boilers.


If smoke is a concern, then stay away from forced air altogether.  It have to be the worst type of heating for moving allergens EVERYWHERE, including wood smoke.  Radiant moves the least amount of air so the least amount of allergens as well.  
TS


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## BoilerMan (Jan 19, 2015)

rogdan said:


> Getting above $5000 in total cost eats into payback considering I get by in $1500 in propane in an average winter but I am not heating the basement now.


If people around here could heat their houses for $1500 a winter with oil/LP then there would be a lot fewer alternative heat installations.

TS


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## heatingcostssuck (Jan 19, 2015)

BoilerMan said:


> If people around here could heat their houses for $1500 a winter with oil/LP then there would be a lot fewer alternative heat installations.
> 
> TS



$1500 would be a dream for me 
Especially for 2000 sqft.


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## duramaxman05 (Jan 19, 2015)

rogdan said:


> Could you give any details of their set up? like distance the furnace is from the home and what state they are in?
> Thanks


They live in missouri. The furnace is just a few feet from there house and sits on the northside of the house. There house is a slab house so the duct work comes out of the stove and up the side of the house into the attic area. Thats where duct work and everything  is.


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## rogdan (Jan 21, 2015)

Thanks for the info Duramaxman05,  it helps the decision process greatly.
The $1500 figure is for a typical (if there is such a thing) mostly wet winter, but not heating my 1200 sq ft uninsulated basement.
 Some say just get a wood stove for the basement but if I'm going to get into burning wood......

So the figure is like 4 to 1 in favor of water in heat transfer or a little worse.
 Is there no equalization had in placing a forced air unit 10 feet of less from the home compared to 50 feet of more distance for a for an outdoor boiler?
Of course the boiler is able to hold and not only transfer the heat with the water but my suitable spot for a boiler would be at least 50 feet.


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## maple1 (Jan 21, 2015)

What is your wood supply situation, and wood burning experience in general? How much dry wooid can you supply in a year? How much do you have on hand now? How much are you expecting to burn?


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## rogdan (Jan 21, 2015)

I'm now cutting many cords a year for my folks off the farm, that's why I'm finally getting into the game myself.
I have a large supply of standing dead and well cured locust which most prefer here even over oak.


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## rogdan (Jan 24, 2015)

Thanks for the information from those with first hand experience, I will try to report back if and when I get there.
I at realize now that the most efficient and simple system is to just buy more propane and that wood burning efficiency increases along with cost and complexity.
My insurance verified no primary solid heat unit within the home but no increase in rates with an external unit and likely because of the arson history in the state I would have almost double rates to go with another provider.


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## brenndatomu (Jan 24, 2015)

laynes69 said:


> While bringing in wood and having ash could cause some allergies, with a proper chimney and some simple housekeeping, it shouldn't be a problem. Just use common sense and don't bring in a cord of wood into the house, or be careless with the ashes. With 2000 sqft of well insulated area, even a Tundra which is not that expensive would easily heat your home. The radiant heat alone from the furnace would heat your basement. I've seen a few outdoor forced air furnaces around here, and the amount of wood they burn is ridiculous.


+1 what he said ^^^. I heat the same size home as you from the basement with a Yukon wood/oil furnace. ~1200ft first floor to 71-72*, ~800ft second 68* ish, ~1200 basement that stays 68* or so just from radiant heat. Couple points here...
1. A proper chimney with plenty of height goes a _long_ way to keeping smoke out of the house!
2.Truly seasoned DRY wood. I'd bet those other wood burners homes that you have to stay away from have marginal dry wood.
3.Batch burning...in other words, load 'er up and don't open the door again until the wood is down to coals.
4. Use a good HEPA style furnace filter.
5. My house was originally heated with a coal furnace and has a "furnace room" with a coal storage room off that. If you are concerned with allergies, build a room around the furnace that can be closed off when you are loading or cleaning ashes out. One step further would be to put a vent fan (vented to the outdoors) in there to clear it out before opening the door back up afterwards. The just leave the door open to get heat to the basement. Works well for me.
6. A modern clean burn furnace like the Tundra mentioned above, with dry wood will probably heat your place on 4-5 cords per winter. You can buy those for $1500-$1600 on sale too.

If you are leaning toward a boiler, again... batch burning. You would need to put a large insulated water storage tank in your basement to store the hot water because you load the boiler and run 'er wide open until it burns out. Probably once per day or so. Boilers mainly smoke when they idle, if you have dry wood anyways (see a theme here) Even non gassification boilers can burn pretty clean if they are batch burnt. Start up cost are gonna be a lot higher with any boiler system.

In the end though, your chances of being disappointed with an outdoor forced air furnace are pretty high in my opinion.

I'd shop that insurance company some more...it is usually not hard to find someone that will let you have a wood burner in the house for "secondary" heat for an extra $50 per year or so.
EDIT: After rereading your reply, you are correct, ins co's won't let you have "primary" wood heat, but most will consider wood secondary since you have a propane furnace, then your are good to go. They don't need to know that the propane furnace never runs . The main thing they are concerned about is that you have an automated heat system that will keep the pipes from freezing etc. if everybody is gone for extended periods


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## maple1 (Jan 24, 2015)

_My insurance verified no *primary *solid heat unit within the home_


But what if the propane remained as primary and the wood unit was secondary? Which would more accurately reflect/define the typical indoor add-on situation.


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## rogdan (Jan 24, 2015)

You guys are reading my mind on this. I talked to Liberty Mutual yesterday and the rep was not aware of any type on outdoor wood system!!
So with that lack of awareness on their part in mind I'm not so confident in moving forward.
I'm sure I could burn with the  furnace in the basement but if I did not tie into the duct work like a big wood stove but this is not ideal for sure.


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## rogdan (Feb 5, 2015)

brenndatomu said:


> +1 what he said ^^^. I heat the same size home as you from the basement with a Yukon wood/oil furnace. ~1200ft first floor to 71-72*, ~800ft second 68* ish, ~1200 basement that stays 68* or so just from radiant heat. Couple points here...
> 1. A proper chimney with plenty of height goes a _long_ way to keeping smoke out of the house!
> 2.Truly seasoned DRY wood. I'd bet those other wood burners homes that you have to stay away from have marginal dry wood.
> 3.Batch burning...in other words, load 'er up and don't open the door again until the wood is down to coals.
> ...


 
I was looking into the Yukon online too, how would you compare it to the Tundra? What kind of burn time with wood and smoke blow back?
I got some good news on homeowners front, it looks like indoor units are back in the picture but I will need a pro install for the unit and venting. Now I need to find one willing and able to do it right and hope that the work doesn't bust the budget.


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## brenndatomu (Feb 5, 2015)

rogdan said:


> I was looking into the Yukon online too, how would you compare it to the Tundra? What kind of burn time with wood and smoke blow back?
> I got some good news on homeowners front, it looks like indoor units are back in the picture but I will need a pro install for the unit and venting. Now I need to find one willing and able to do it right and hope that the work doesn't bust the budget.


Burn time depends on which Yukon model you are looking at. My Husky will do at least 8 hours no problem, more when it is not so cold. My old Big Jack struggled to do 5-6 hours when it was cold. Smoke blow back is not problem as long as you have a proper chimney and it is clean.
I have no personal experience with the Tundra but guys really seem to like 'em. Lotta bang for the buck there. I am installing one for my sister as soon as the weather breaks a lil bit.


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## atvalaska (Feb 6, 2015)

rogdan said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am a new member to this forum and am considering one of the forced air out door systems. I am leaning toward the Fire Chief/Shelter unit but also considering the Hopsco among others.
> There is little information out there on these systems so and looking for feedback from uses of these type of furnaces.
> ...


wow u need to go to http://outdoorwoodfurnaceinfo.com/forum/ the site for poor people tiring to do the rite thing ...with out all the math.......just saying


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## wardk (Feb 7, 2015)

rogdan said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am a new member to this forum and am considering one of the forced air out door systems. I am leaning toward the Fire Chief/Shelter unit but also considering the Hopsco among others.
> There is little information out there on these systems so and looking for feedback from uses of these type of furnaces.
> ...


A neighbour had a similar system worked okay, then one night the heat exchanger burned through and the circulator fan sucked all the wood smoke into the house,one hell of a mess.


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## mike van (Feb 8, 2015)

rogdan - You can insulate your basement too, from the inside - I did mine some 20 + years ago. Vertical 1x4's, 2 ft oc, then 1" high R foam on those. What a difference, not having that cold concrete exposed.


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## rogdan (Feb 8, 2015)

Glad to hear the improvement you gained from just the one inch insulation, that's what I was looking it over at Lowes yesterday. I am looking to also add another layer of R30 in the attic before the end of heating season to see the difference it makes. I feal dumb not having done it sooner but s it just me or has the price on fiberglass really come down over the past 5 years or so?


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## mike van (Feb 8, 2015)

I don't know about the price, but it's cheap when compared to what it saves in todays energy costs -  You used to be able to see ice crystals on the concrete, even with a stove down there, on the far end.  When you get installing it, you also see gaps between the sill & top of the wall that are open to outside air.  Back when the original part of my house was built, 1962, fuel oil was what, tens cents a gal.?  Just let her run -


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## rogdan (Feb 8, 2015)

brenndatomu said:


> Burn time depends on which Yukon model you are looking at. My Husky will do at least 8 hours no problem, more when it is not so cold. My old Big Jack struggled to do 5-6 hours when it was cold. Smoke blow back is not problem as long as you have a proper chimney and it is clean.
> I have no personal experience with the Tundra but guys really seem to like 'em. Lotta bang for the buck there. I am installing one for my sister as soon as the weather breaks a lil bit.


 
The big jack is the one I was looking at from this company. My heating need is not likely much different in WV than OH but only 5-6 hour burn time?


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## rogdan (Feb 8, 2015)

atvalaska said:


> wow u need to go to http://outdoorwoodfurnaceinfo.com/forum/ the site for poor people tiring to do the rite thing ...with out all the math.......just saying


  I've been there but not into the OWB at this point.


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## velvetfoot (Feb 8, 2015)

The fact that your kids can't go into houses with wood stoves doesn't bode well, in my opinion.


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## BoilerMan (Feb 9, 2015)

velvetfoot said:


> The fact that your kids can't go into houses with wood stoves doesn't bode well, in my opinion.


Especially for anything forced air.................  Water is simply cleaner for heat transfer, all the way around. 

TS


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## rogdan (Mar 5, 2015)

Thanks all,
 I'm going to sharpen my pencil and start from scratch. The exta layer of R30 in the attic was a great help and I regret not doing it years ago. I also switched to wood friendly home owners company for a lower rate believe it or not!
 Up next for consideration is the indoor boilers but the large volume indoor water storage is an issue and it would be better outside and use less needed and valuable ft'.
An indoor unit still requires a pro install and add a chimney to that;so maybe double the cost...


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