# EnergyStar room A/C units - are there reliability compromises?



## Sprinter (Apr 20, 2016)

I've been researching window A/C units in the 8 or 10 BTU range for my stepdaughter.  Some makers seem to offer the otherwise same models with an EnergyStar rating with the other not.  Sometimes they are the same price (like LGs). 

The EnergyStar models seem to be a bit larger and heavier.  As with a lot of other appliances, there are compromises to be made for efficiency.  My question is, might I experience problems with an EnergyStar model compared to a sister model.

Example being the notorious modern refrigerator issues.  I dread having to buy a new one.


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## iamlucky13 (Apr 21, 2016)

That's not an easy question to answer. Fundamentally, no there shouldn't be. That does not mean, however, that the manufacturer did not have to make some quality compromises in order to achieve better performance without increasing the price. Then again maybe larger size was the compromise.

The ultimate answer lies in the failure rates of years of actual in server use by thousands of customers. The best you can do is look for reviews to get a sense if there are consistent problems, but even that only hints at the overall experience by the average use.

I'm not sure what you're referring to about notorious modern refrigerator issues, unless you're referring to the fact that many appliances are not designed for the kind of longevity they were in the past.


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## Highbeam (Apr 21, 2016)

iamlucky13 said:


> I'm not sure what you're referring to about notorious modern refrigerator issues, unless you're referring to the fact that many appliances are not designed for the kind of longevity they were in the past.



Agreed, I am rather thrilled with my energy star refrigerator.


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## woodgeek (Apr 21, 2016)

One thing that gets done is to make the coils larger, so that there is better heat transfer, and there is less back pressure from the air blowing over them, refrigerant going through....basically translates as a higher material and fabrication cost, not clear how it leads to lower reliability.


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## Sprinter (Apr 21, 2016)

woodgeek said:


> One thing that gets done is to make the coils larger, so that there is better heat transfer, and there is less back pressure from the air blowing over them, refrigerant going through....basically translates as a higher material and fabrication cost, not clear how it leads to lower reliability.


Alright, that makes sense.  It certainly explains the extra weight and size.  I was a little surprised that the prices were the same with and without, at least for some LG models.  I wasn't saying that new ACs are less reliable, but sometimes that can be a compromise in some designs. 

Thanks.

As for the refrigerators, here is a quote from an appliance service company:


> This information is provided to our valued customers. All Brand is a service company. We do not sell these products.  Models change frequently.  This is general information about brands, our experience based on their performance, and feedback we get from our clients. ...
> 
> *Refrigerator technology has changed a great deal in the last 10 years. While new refrigerators have become more energy efficient, they also have become more expensive and are experiencing a shorter life span (usually about 8-10 years).
> 
> Solid state circuitry and micro processing control boards achieve accurate temperatures and savings with smaller compressors, but added components have made a durable appliance a temperamental, undependable and aggravating product.*



Personally, I still own two fridges that are over 25 years old.  Other than period colors, you couldn't much tell.  I've just heard too many bad reliability stories about refrigerators made in the past 10 or 15 years and my impression has been compromised compressor design in favor of efficiency.


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## woodgeek (Apr 21, 2016)

Sprinter said:


> Personally, I still own two fridges that are over 25 years old.  Other than period colors, you couldn't much tell.  I've just heard too many bad reliability stories about refrigerators made in the past 10 or 15 years and my impression has been compromised compressor design in favor of efficiency.



You should put a killawatt meter on them and see what they cost you to run per year.  If you don't have one, check your local public library.


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## iamlucky13 (Apr 22, 2016)

Sprinter said:


> As for the refrigerators, here is a quote from an appliance service company:



That's the sort of thing I suspected you were referring to. I'm not aware of any way the declining longevity of many appliances types relates to their efficiency, however. Just a long-running trend of cost-cutting by the manufacturers to beat the competition on price.

There's a graph here that hints at this. It only shows the declining prices (inflation adjusted), not the change in reliability:
http://www.mymoneyblog.com/economics-old-refrigerator.html

Interestingly, the effective cost (price / life expectancy) seems to be roughly constant. You pay about half as much for a fridge, but it lasts about half as long.

You'd think there'd be a customer reaction against that on the basis of convenience, if nothing else, but other factors come into play. For one, after 10 years, decorating trends will have changed. Nobody wanted avocado green fridges in the 90's, nobody wanted almond in the 00's, and it seems almost nobody wants white now. In a few more years, I expect stainless will be out of style in most kitchens, too. For another, it's really hard for the customer in the showroom to be convinced that between two similar fridges, one that costs $1000, and the other that costs $2000, the second will really last twice as long. After all, the manufacturer is not going to put a 20+ year warranty on pretty much anything with moving parts.


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## BrotherBart (Apr 22, 2016)

One thing they do to raise A/C efficiency is sling the condensate around instead of it draining. Makes'em noisier and I drill drain holes in ours because in our humid climate they generate more water than the slinger can evaporate away and they overflow.


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## Sprinter (Apr 24, 2016)

iamlucky13 said:


> Interestingly, the effective cost (price / life expectancy) seems to be roughly constant. You pay about half as much for a fridge, but it lasts about half as long.



That is an interesting graph and I thank you for it.   But the whole idea is supposed to be progress in overall energy use.  The chart illustrates decades of stasis at best.  And I'm not sure that "effective cost" considers the whole energy/carbon thing at all.

How much does it cost to manufacture, transport and retail a new fridge that may last 8-10 years and then end up in a landfill, when environmental costs are factored?   I'm sure this is a subject of study, but so far, I don't see a whole lot of progress in consumer products in this regard, when all factors are considered including so much disregard for environmental concerns in primary manufacturing countries.

Sure, I can afford a new fridge every several years, and I can afford the electric cost at 5.5 cents here, but is my economic situation the point?

I'm really not trying to be adversarial here, but I just don't see the progress.  However, I'm willing to be enlightened.


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## iamlucky13 (Apr 25, 2016)

Sprinter said:


> That is an interesting graph and I thank you for it. But the whole idea is supposed to be progress in overall energy use. The chart illustrates decades of stasis at best.



Make sure you're reading the right line. The graph shows decades of plummeting energy use.



Sprinter said:


> How much does it cost to manufacture, transport and retail a new fridge that may last 8-10 years and then end up in a landfill, when environmental costs are factored?



This is definitely a key question. It might be possible to find a life-cycle analysis for refrigerators, or perhaps for home appliances as a category, that could help answer that question. From what I've researched before on energy-intensity of raw materials, however, I'd guess the energy savings of new fridges probably make up for the energy consumed in manufacturing, delivery, etc, in a few years compared to fridges that predate efficiency standards.

Of course, the best option is a fridge that is efficient and lasts a long time.

Keep in mind also that shortened useful life is not a goal, nor outcome of the higher efficiency standards. It's an outcome of consumer purchasing habits and the natural business response to them.

Separately, I just remembered something interesting - a few years back we viewed a house for sale that had an old chest freezer in the basement. Based on the styling, I can't imagine it was newer than the 1960's. The thing looked and felt incredibly heavy. I can't imagine how they got it into the basement, and the owner stipulated that it stayed with the house - they didn't want to hassle with moving it or even hiring a crew capable of doing so.

Besides, that ~50 year old beast was still running.


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## woodgeek (Apr 25, 2016)

I have friends that like to 'redecorate' their kitchen from time to time, often ditching working appliances that are less than 10 yrs old.  I think the industry is giving people what (most) of them want.  

Embodied energy in a fridge: about 100 to 150 kWh.  or less energy than it uses in 4-6 mos if a newer model.

http://thebreakthrough.org/index.ph.../the-bottom-line-on-iphones-vs.-refrigerators


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## Sprinter (Apr 25, 2016)

woodgeek said:


> I think the industry is giving people what (most) of them want


Okay, I have no doubt about that, and that is probably the hardest nut to crack.  
Interesting report about Iphones.  I'm sure life cyle studies can be difficult at least for some products with so many variables involved, and yet that seems to me to be the most encompassing and telling type of study.  


woodgeek said:


> I have friends that like to 'redecorate' their kitchen from time to time


We have a member here (can't remember the name now) who likes to decorate their home with all vintage stuff.  Their fridge is from the 50's (working) and I have to admit it looks pretty cool.  


iamlucky13 said:


> Besides, that ~50 year old beast was still running.


I just read that the oldest running fridge was made in 1930,  But inflation adjusted, it was really expensive, like $4k today, so that point is well made.  I agree that an awful lot of things are tossed out for style way before working life is over.  

So I can let the refrigerator rant go (except I believe that the electronic controls are sometimes poor). And I'm actually okay with the AC question too.  It sounds like they meet EnergyStar ratings with designs that add weight and size but not sacrifice working life.


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## Brian26 (Apr 30, 2016)

Sprinter said:


> Okay, I have no doubt about that, and that is probably the hardest nut to crack.
> Interesting report about Iphones.  I'm sure life cyle studies can be difficult at least for some products with so many variables involved, and yet that seems to me to be the most encompassing and telling type of study.
> 
> We have a member here (can't remember the name now) who likes to decorate their home with all vintage stuff.  Their fridge is from the 50's (working) and I have to admit it looks pretty cool.
> ...



I have an original to the house 1958 Frigidaire wall oven in my kitchen that still works.

I replaced a 1978 fridge last summer with a new basic ge model. When I hooked my killawat up to the old fridge it was crazy how much power it used. Was costing me over $15 a month to run it.  I was blown away when the killawatt showed the new one uses 100 watts when its running!

As far a energy efficient AC's go. I already had ducts in my house and installed a new carrier infinity 3 ton heat pump/ac unit last year. In full blown ac mode in the summer it pulls about 1500 watts to cool the whole house including running the blower. I expected it to be much more. I previously had 4 windows units and my bill went way down. I believe the window units pull around 500-700 watts each.


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## Sprinter (May 9, 2016)

Okay, I did a little audit on my own fridges with my KillaWatt again.  I figured that our situation is going to be different than many others' , but since there are so many variables, I thought I'd do it.  I put the Killawatt on for 48 hrs each.

Our situations that may vary from more typical ones are:
1.  Electric rates are only .055.  Quite low, maybe half or less of average costs which vary widely.
2.  Only two of us here, we have two fridges (only because we had them) and each fridge is open much less than with a large family, and duty cycles may be less on new ones  depending on design (I would think that insulation factors would be better on newer units).

Both fridges are at least 20 yo.

Fridge #1 is 20 cf, takes 202 w while on, and 907 KWH per year. Roughly 50% duty cycle, and costs about $50/yr at $.055.
Fridge #2 is 17 cf, takes 155 w  while on,  and  784 KWH per year. Roughly 55% duty cycle  and costs about  $41/yr.

Just for general interest.  Not drawing any important conclusions here except that there are a lot of factors to consider.

The window AC deal is for a small rental.  She has no choice.


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## Seasoned Oak (May 9, 2016)

It seems every time i buy a new window AC it uses less wattage and seems to deliver more cold air then the previous model of the same BTU.
I was overheating an outlet with a 5000 BTU and replaced it and now the outlet is fine,stays cool,and the room is colder then ever in summer.


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## Sprinter (May 9, 2016)

Seasoned Oak said:


> It seems every time i buy a new window AC it uses less wattage and seems to deliver more cold air then the previous model of the same BTU.
> I was overheating an outlet with a 5000 BTU and replaced it and now the outlet is fine,stays cool,and the room is colder then ever in summer.


Interesting, but somewhat alarming.   My older 6000 BTU unit draws about 6, maybe 7 amps.  I can't imagine that being enough (by itself) to overheat an outlet.  I get that the new unit doesn't do that, but I think I would still take a close look at that outlet and maybe replace it on general principles.  Many outlets, especially older, cheaper ones have such loose insert connections that they can overheat just by the resulting resistance, or by connections to adjacent outlets.

If that original 5k unit was really drawing enough current to overheat the outlet, it must have had a serious problem.  Outlets can develop intermittent problems, too. 

Oh, on second thought, it may have been a poor plug on the old AC.  They can overheat if the internal connections are poor.  I have a distaste for molded plugs, especially on high-current devices.

Be safe.


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## iamlucky13 (May 9, 2016)

Sprinter said:


> Many outlets, especially older, cheaper ones have such loose insert connections that they can overheat just by the resulting resistance, or by connections to adjacent outlets.



THIS!

I've found many "back stab" style outlets in my house have visible melting/charring of the plastic housing due to heat generated either by the poor contact between the wiring in the walls and the push-in terminal, or between the plug and the receptacles. I suspect the design is just good enough to pass the UL tests, but gets worse over time. If it were up to me, UL would delist the push-in terminals.

The worst was an outlet where I had a 1200 W space heater in use occassionally. The plug got so warm the plastic overmolding had softened to the consistency of silly putty and I could deform it by squeezing. That was at only 2/3 of the rated current! I've been going through replacing them in order of how frequently they get used, using the back wire screw and clamp method and pigtails.

This page has good photos of the differences:
https://www.handymanhowto.com/electrical-outlets-side-wire-versus-back-wire/


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## Sprinter (May 9, 2016)

Lucky, Couldn't  agree more with all of it.  I would replace any outlet that had any of these problems:

1.  the prongs are too loose.  There are test devices that can measure the amount of force it takes to withdraw from an outlet  But if it just feels loose, it is and will build up heat if the current is high enough.
2.  The wiring is of the push-in style.  Sure, it's convenient, but when I moved in to our new place, I found an outlet (actually a wall switch) that was very warm to the touch.  It was due to one of those connections.
3.  If you have any high-current devices (even lower ones for that matter), just touch the plug now and then.  Space heaters are the worst culprit, and I never use one on "high" anyway.   In fact, it may sound anal, but I replace any high-current molded plugs with a decent quality (hospital grade is best) plug.  I've just seen too many dangerously hot molded plugs.

Not to mention that if an outlet or plug is hot, it also means that your appliance is  losing the power that is being dissipated as heat.


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## Seasoned Oak (May 9, 2016)

The AC unit was at least 20 years old. I think there was something wrong with it. If the outlet was defective it would have heated up with the new one too. I should have tested it with my kilawatt meter.


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## Sprinter (May 9, 2016)

Seasoned Oak said:


> The AC unit was at least 20 years old. I think there was something wrong with it. If the outlet was defective it would have heated up with the new one too. I should have tested it with my kilawatt meter.


I would tend to agree with you given that the new one is cool at the outlet. Either the unit itself or a bad plug (my hunch).  I tend to be conservative about these matters, but for good reasons.  Still, if this outlet is used for an AC, I'd check it out to be sure...  Be especially sure that the plug doesn't seem loose in the outlet and feel it now and then for heat.

Really, your 5k BTU unit probably is less than 5 or 6 amps which should not be a problem by itself assuming the plug and outlet are fine.


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## Seasoned Oak (May 10, 2016)

Sprinter said:


> Really, your 5k BTU unit probably is less than 5 or 6 amps which should not be a problem by itself assuming the plug and outlet are fine.


I think its between 400 and 500 watts which is very low power draw for an AC.Works a lot better than the old one too. Twice as cold.


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## begreen (May 10, 2016)

What make and model?


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## Seasoned Oak (May 10, 2016)

begreen said:


> What make and model?


What ever they sell at WM. Probably was $99 , does have a remote though.


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## Sprinter (May 17, 2016)

FWIW,  I just installed an LG 10k BTU window A/C for her.  EnergyStar.  Other than crummy install instructions,  it seems nicely made and what struck me most was how quiet it is.  Draws only 7.7 Amps, which surprised me for a 10k unit.  The non-Energy Star was 8, btw.  Assuming it's reliable, it's a nice unit.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jul 22, 2016)

IV discovered i can cool my entire 3 story home down from the bedrooms on the third floor alone.Cold air seems to spill like water down the steps. Running the bedroom units alone and leaving the doors open will cool the whole place down and allow me tho use the same cold air to cool 3 floors. So far i have not even put my 12000 BTU kitchen unit in at all this year and its been pretty hot for awhile now.
Most of the time its 1 6000 BTU bedroom unit going but when it hits 90+ outside i use 2 6000 BTU bedroom AC.


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## peakbagger (Jul 22, 2016)

A major thing folks forget when discussing refrigerator and AC units is that the EPA has been forcing a phase out of various refrigerants. Good old Freon was great stuff, would run forever at fairly low pressures. Unfortunately it chewed a hole in the ozone when released. The various replacements require higher pressures and that makes things more difficult for longevity. I don't even know what the current brew is but recently read that its being phased out and replaced with another version with even lower ozone depletion potential.


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## STIHLY DAN (Jul 22, 2016)

This is true. It will be fun to see whats next, I hear it will not be a blend but a whole new chemical makeup.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jul 23, 2016)

Just as they made a better battery with lithuim -ion , they can find a refrigerant that doesn't destroy the enviroment IMO.


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## maple1 (Jul 26, 2016)

Isn't CO2 the next big thing for refrigerant?


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## Sprinter (Jul 26, 2016)

maple1 said:


> Isn't CO2 the next big thing for refrigerant?


As in "Back to the Future"?   If not for the challenge of the high pressures required and others, we'd probably be using CO2 for a hundred years by now.  But it seems to be gaining ground now commercially and will likely continue to become mainstream.

Other Green Room users here will know more than I about current developments, though.


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