# electrical generation hybrid boiler



## barkeatr (Apr 13, 2012)

ive been spending lots of time checking out all the homemade gassifyers on youtube.  they are running cars trucks, generators and all that.  some of them are very evolved.  the gas thats being pulled off the wood fire and ported into the engines is called syngas if I understand it right.   jeez, i wonder if there is anyway i could pull off some of the syngass in my profab gassifyer and run a generator.  Probably not, i expect that my syngass is prolly not as consistent and good enough quality.  These are sophisticaded machines.  My my profab is not this sophisticated.   also it prolly would not work since im burning cordwood and not these small chunks of wood and for other technical reasons. 

but has anyone else entertained this thought?  basically you could run the generator to charge batteries and it would take to much and you would be providing same power as a 20,000 solar panel investment..


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## Bad Wolf (Apr 13, 2012)

http://gasifier.wpengine.com/personal-energy-grid


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## barkeatr (Apr 13, 2012)

Greg H said:


> http://gasifier.wpengine.com/personal-energy-grid


 

YA, thats probably the best site out there....this guy sells self contained ready to run units.  price tags are in the 34,000 range for the 5KW gasifying unit that runs a generator, provides some heat...how much heat I dont know.  i was wondering if anyone has tried to run a generator off a outdoor wood boiler..by poaching some of the gas.  I doubt that anyone has!


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## infinitymike (Apr 13, 2012)

I have looked at those gasifier generators also. That may be my next move!! (after 1000 gallons of storage) Maybe run a generator full time and never use electric again. or until the neighbors shoot me because of the noise   I really don't know but I think that the gas that we make in our wood burners is actually being burned in the secondary chamber, creating that nice hot flame. I think those generator type units use the gas that comes off the wood before it is re ignited in a secondary chamber. Maybe I'm wrong, so if someone knows how, I would love to tap into it. I have 5 generators from back in the day when I had 5 framing crews.


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## jimbom (Apr 13, 2012)

Gasification has been around since the 1800s.  Google patent search would likely turn up a lot of ideas from 100 years ago.  All the street lights in the old days were gas from the local gasification plant.  In our piddly little town, my grandmother told of the kids following the town marshall around in the evening as he lit each street lamp.
http://fossil.energy.gov/programs/powersystems/gasification/gasificationpioneer.html
The plants made a mess, so environmental site survey always includes location of those old facilities.


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## barkeatr (Apr 13, 2012)

infinitymike said:


> I have looked at those gasifier generators also. That may be my next move!! (after 1000 gallons of storage) Maybe run a generator full time and never use electric again. or until the neighbors shoot me because of the noise I really don't know but I think that the gas that we make in our wood burners is actually being burned in the secondary chamber, creating that nice hot flame. I think those generator type units use the gas that comes off the wood before it is re ignited in a secondary chamber. Maybe I'm wrong, so if someone knows how, I would love to tap into it. I have 5 generators from back in the day when I had 5 framing crews.


your exactly right the gassification generators are using the same gas as what is going into our secondary burn chambers.  Although I think their gas is much more refined and consistent. I cant imagine there is a way to pull off some of that gas of our thermal gassers.  Maybe a few generations of thermal heating gassiyers will come with an electrical generation add on!


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## infinitymike (Apr 13, 2012)

maybe there's a way to pull some of that gas off the the top before it drops down....mmmmmm....let's go to the think tank

necessity is the mother of invention.

and my necessity is to get of the grid....oh wait that means I'd have to get off Hearth...ok, almost  off the grid


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## maple1 (Apr 14, 2012)

I'm thinking the gas that is burned in 'our gassers' would not be enough to generate much electricity plus still leave enough to burn to make enough.

Think you'd have to start with a much bigger boiler, at least.


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## woodsmaster (Apr 14, 2012)

I'd be willing to buy another boiler If I could generate electric with wood.


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## infinitymike (Apr 14, 2012)

I do framing and we run a generator and a gas powered air compressor all day.
I hate listening to those things. Thats why I'm deaf in one ear and can't hear out of the other.
Plus with regular gas at $4.05 I'm dropping $20 bucks a day.
Sometimes we are lucky and there is power on the site, then I can run my big electric air compressor. Ahhh nice and quite.

I'm considering a gassifier that I can hook into my generator and compressor I'd deal with the noise if I was saving $100 a week


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## woodsmaster (Apr 14, 2012)

I hear ya. I used to run a gas compressor all day. I've since bought an medium cfm electric and it works for 90% of the jobs we do. If we don't have power or need more air I'll get the gas comp. out but that is rare. It saves me about $10.00 a day and It's nice to not hear the motor idel when your not using air. It is also a lot lighter than the gas unit.


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## SmokeEater (Apr 14, 2012)

I can see a more advanced methods to use wood for generation and this is not anything new and not my idea.   This "generator" would really be a combo of a pyrolysis chamber to reduce wood to its gaseous components, strip off the hydrogen from the mix, combine the hydrogen with oxygen in a fuel cell to generate power and burn the remainder or compress it for later use to supply the home with DHW and heat.  Larger units could supply hydrogen for fuel celled cars and/or larger fuel cells that could sell electric energy back to the utility.  Your woodlot then could make you energy self sufficient.


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## woodsmaster (Apr 14, 2012)

Check this out. https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/great-way-to-get-rid-of-shorts-and-uglies.85908/
If he can do it to a truck for $500 I don't see why you couldn't do it with a generator. I may have a new hobby
with this. A truck, a generator, a ........


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## barkeatr (Apr 14, 2012)

IM not so sure we woudl need bigger boilers to generate electricty.  These guys are driving trucks and generators for a couple of hours on a burlap bag of wood chunks.  Something tells me cordwood is not the way to go though. i dont think the pieces are small enough to extract the energy from them in such a refined fashion.  Maybe wood chips are the answer but i see where wood chips have to be just right or they block airflow.  there is one guy on the youtube running large diesel generator off wood gas..but you can see a outdoor boiler in the background.  seems the gassifying generators use 2 inch cubes of wood ( approx) and there is no bark and what we call uglies.  its almost like framing lumber chopped up.  but if there would be a way to extract the good quality gass out of  of our boiler and let the bad gass burn for thermal heat maybe there is a way.  ( kind of like what infinity mike said)  Sadly im not much of a chemist or studied in the laws of gas.  crazy thing is after these guys start thier engines..then can then shut off the fan pulling air through the gasser cause the engine sucks the air through.  I like what you say infinity mike.  Maybe there are ways to burn the lower quality gas that we produce in different, crude fashion.   Maybe making steam would be less finicky on gas quality than a combustion engine.  I feel myself leaving reality on this though.  if there was some way to stick a pipe in your gasser chamber and extract good gas you would have it.


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## barkeatr (Apr 14, 2012)

i keep thinking a mechanical engine will never run on cordwood feuled wood gas.  and do i want to chunk up all my wood into 2x2 pieces ..NO.   But change that wood gas to steam and then you have a clean more consistent energy transfer medium. ( that sounds fancy dont it).   I found a small steam engine on the internet...its the latest and greatest from some inventor.  http://www.greensteamengine.com/products.htm  .  its 2000 bucks.  SO we have a small engine that could sister up next to a heat based thermal gasser nicely.  Now we just need someone to pipe into thier OWB and try to draw off gas to make a fire..to see if its possible.  Seems as though if you could run one of those weed burners then you have passed that test...?  i dont think in the end we will have a full on AC generator but more of a continously running generator that is charging batteries?  I dont know...


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## woodsmaster (Apr 14, 2012)

The problem with steam I believe is you need special liscences to run a steam boiler. It would probably be easier to have a seperate gasser to make the wood gas for a gas motor than to use your boiler.


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## barkeatr (Apr 14, 2012)

special license...ouch.   Your probably right separating heat based gasser to electical output gasser.  Just something in my head wants to combine the two and have one fire... Electrical gassers  they are pretty small units.  My gas generator now is a separate unit what is the difference?  Sure is an idea for the third or fourth generation wood boilers though aint it?


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## SmokeEater (Apr 14, 2012)

Each time you "convert" energy, you "lose" some of it.  It's not really lost, but escapes the process in another form such as heat, light, or sound.  If you gassify wood to use the gas, you will "lose" energy.  Then, if you run a mechanical device, such as an internal combustion engine, more energy is "lost".  Then if that internal combustion engine mechanically connects to a magnetic generator, more energy is "lost" in the generator, then if you store the energy in a battery (chemical energy), you "lose" more.  Too many conversions will cost you big time.  Go from wood as directly as you can to electricity, and you will only "lose" a small amount, such as in the fuel cell (no moving parts, no friction, small energy loss).


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## Fred61 (Apr 15, 2012)

I once ran into a guy that was getting free energy. I showed up at an apartment house I owned several years ago and found an extension cord plugged into an outdoor outlet. Upon following in, I found that it lead to the neighbors house.


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## infinitymike (Apr 16, 2012)

Fred61 said:


> I once ran into a guy that was getting free energy. I showed up at an apartment house I owned several years ago and found an extension cord plugged into an outdoor outlet. Upon following in, I found that it lead to the neighbors house.


 
That was funny. Made me chuckle.  I can get free electric also.. I will just pull my meter out and hope I get it back in before they come to read it


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## heaterman (Apr 16, 2012)

Power is lost in each conversion of energy.....one form to another..
This is exactly why electric vehicles are such a farce. They just add another step in the energy chain which reduces efficiency. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy


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## barkeatr (Apr 16, 2012)

Yep...energy is lost in conversions, for sure for sure.. no doubt about that..  but when the original energy source is wood that is free and renewable...i dont loose any "energy" out of my pocketbook or I dont have to work ( another form of energy) longer hours to pay for the fuel...I dont mind a bit of energy loss in the conversions!   . .  Its just outrageously cool to me to run a generator off of wood gas.   I want to build one of these.  Im giving up the stupid idea of trying to make my OWB gasser do it...(thanks guys)..and when you see all the ones folks are building on youtube it seems like a bit of fun.  There is one where the guy has the gasser on a trailer...and he pulls it around with his VW rabbit and the trailer woody gassifyer engine is actually running the car.  Then he goes home and hooks it up to his  house.  love it!


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## infinitymike (Apr 16, 2012)

barkeatr said:


> Yep...energy is lost in conversions, for sure for sure.. no doubt about that.. but when the original energy source is wood that is free and renewable...i dont loose any "energy" out of my pocketbook or I dont have to work ( another form of energy) longer hours to pay for the fuel...I dont mind a bit of energy loss in the conversions! . . Its just outrageously cool to me to run a generator off of wood gas. I want to build one of these. Im giving up the stupid idea of trying to make my OWB gasser do it...(thanks guys)..and when you see all the ones folks are building on youtube it seems like a bit of fun. There is one where the guy has the gasser on a trailer...and he pulls it around with his VW rabbit and the trailer woody gassifyer engine is actually running the car. Then he goes home and hooks it up to his house. love it!


 
I'm with you barkeater.  I don't mind converting my energy into splitting wood to then be converted into a gas (by means of burning) to then be converted into electric (by means of my generator running off it) .

The type of conversion  I hate is when I have to convert my energy into working for a dollar bill which is then converted into pennies(by means of taxes)

Lets met at the Roscoe Diner and brainstorm about how to build one


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## SmokeEater (Apr 17, 2012)

heaterman said:


> Power is lost in each conversion of energy.....one form to another..
> This is exactly why electric vehicles are such a farce. They just add another step in the energy chain which reduces efficiency.


 
I'm wrong then, because I thought that conversion from battery to electric motor was fairly high in efficiency, and the gasoline to motion (gas powered vehicle) is one of the poorest conversions.  I'm thinking that one of the best conversions is from fuel cell to electric motor and so the fuel cell will become the basic people mover of the near future using hydrogen and will replace the fossil fueled vehicles.  Hydrogen is a limitless fuel, and will be the "gasoline of the future".


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## barkeatr (Apr 17, 2012)

infinitymike said:


> I'm with you barkeater. I don't mind converting my energy into splitting wood to then be converted into a gas (by means of burning) to then be converted into electric (by means of my generator running off it) .
> 
> The type of conversion I hate is when I have to convert my energy into working for a dollar bill which is then converted into pennies(by means of taxes)
> 
> Lets met at the Roscoe Diner and brainstorm about how to build one


soudns good where is Roscoe diner?  HA! 

one firm on the internet is selling a kit of parts.  They are called GEK or some such.  it seems a bit more affordable than the Victory Gasworks gassifyer.


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## pybyr (Apr 17, 2012)

SmokeEater said:


> Hydrogen is a limitless fuel, and will be the "gasoline of the future".


 
Hydrogen isn't an energy source, as it doesn't occur in available, combustible form in any location unless it is deliberately refined or concentrated by human intervention, which takes energy that has to come from some other energy source (electrical energy or chemical energy).  So it's far from a "limitless source" and much more like a battery-- you take energy from something else to refine the hydrogen, which you can then have to use as fuel for an engine, turbine, or fuel cell.  Trouble is: the same unavoidable principle of entropy mentioned above enters in here, too- every conversion of energy from one form or state to another introduces inevitable and substantial losses.  So unless you really need, on a near-unavoidable basis, to convert energy from one form to another to move it to a different location, or to save it for a later time (like photovoltaic power you may actually want to use at midnight), every conversion is a losing proposition


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## Mushroom Man (Apr 17, 2012)

Considering how much I work in order to pay for electricity, I think a gasification plant to create electrical energy is worth a bit of time and experimentation.

Let's paint a picture for those of you who think it's not worth the effort.
This list is not intended to be comprehensive:
1. Last year my rates of electricity skyrocketed by 25%. (Not just me...everyone in Ontario. Ostensibly, because our government needed to pay for the Green Energy program which supports projects that are at least as inefficient in converting alternative energy to electricity as what has been proposed here.). What if that happened for many years in a row?
2. My hydro went out twice for a day each (in effect) causing me no end of grief and forcing me to rely on a gasoline driven genset. If the outage had been long-term, say several weeks (as once happened here due to an ice storm), I would have expended all my fuel and been prey to cold weather and its potentially catastrophic effect on my heating system, storage tank and DHW plumbing. A sustainable fueled electrical generator would not only be cool, it would feel very good to be more independent from the grid
3. We all have gasifiers and know how to make gas with them. For those who don't pay attention...you burn small chunks of dry biomass, usually wood, over hot coals in a gasifier.  As Don L wisely pointed-out, don't over-think it.
4. Most of us have a desire to be more self-sufficient. 
5. Most of us are not stupid or lazy. We can be creative, energetic, clever, careful, resourceful, diligent and of course humble.
6. Most of us have at least some DIY skills. True, were not all engineers, but we would not need to be.
7. This stuff isn't rocket science
8. We would need few resources. Again this list isn't intended to be comprehensive.  An old gas engine or a self-contained genset, a generator or alternator and battery, an inverter, some tubing or piping or pex, some valves, a vacuum creating device (blower), filtering materials, bins or drums, a welder or someone who welds (if you are going to build a stand-alone gasser), some electrical testing devices.
9. I guess that all my hydrogen, methane and other gases is not being consumed by my gasifier. I think that some is escaping up the chimney. I guess that I could run a small genset and still have plenty left for an efficient burn. Note: this is a theory not substantiated in any way. If this is wrong, a longer cycle of experimentation will be needed because an additional gasser will have to be made or bought. In the latter case, justifying the expenditure to my spouse may be a really hard sell.
10. We know gasification for electricity can be done. Others have done it. Others have made Youtube videos. History proves that others have done it. We can proceed with the premise that it is possible.


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## pybyr (Apr 17, 2012)

An intertesting site on use of wood/ pyrolitic gasification to run an engine
Around Sweden with Wood in the Tank:
http://www.vedbil.se/indexe.shtml

As another FYI, the folks that do the GEK gasifier are currently doing some really intriguing work with using straight woodgas to fuel a "listeroid" single-cylinder engine originally built for diesel (the Lister CS design is amazingly simple and robusr), started on diesel, and then, once warmed up, run with spark ignition on 100% woodgas. 

BTW, a major component of woodgas is carbon monoxide, so safety is of utmost importance if you don't want to risk asphyxiation.


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## Mushroom Man (Apr 17, 2012)

Using my diesel tractor in a stationary mode to run a big genset is appealing because it would potentially create lots of power. I've read about a mix of diesel and syngas as the fuel of choice. 90/10 syngas/diesel has been successful with the same engine reliability. Now I just need to find that article again.


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## barkeatr (Apr 17, 2012)

Mushroom Man said:


> Considering how much I work in order to pay for electricity, I think a gasification plant to create electrical energy is worth a bit of time and experimentation.
> 
> Let's paint a picture for those of you who think it's not worth the effort.
> This list is not intended to be comprehensive:
> ...


 
i agree on all but #5.  I am lazy.   Im convinced.


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## barkeatr (Apr 17, 2012)

pybyr said:


> An intertesting site on use of wood/ pyrolitic gasification to run an engine
> Around Sweden with Wood in the Tank:
> http://www.vedbil.se/indexe.shtml
> 
> ...


 

the three young swedish fellas that put that car togeher goes to show good ol fashioned techno geek is everywhere and shall rule the world.   interested in this listeroid.  is that on the GEK forum?

Tim


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## infinitymike (Apr 17, 2012)

barkeatr said:


> soudns good where is Roscoe diner? HA!
> 
> one firm on the internet is selling a kit of parts. They are called GEK or some such. it seems a bit more affordable than the Victory Gasworks gassifyer.


Yeah I did a little research a couple months ago. Victory is crazy expensive and some people are given him a bad rap saying he is rippin people off and not servicing them. But thats 3rd party info and you know how that goes.. 

Theres is a ton of info out there and they dont seem to hard to put together.


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## SmokeEater (Apr 17, 2012)

pybyr said:


> Hydrogen isn't an energy source, as it doesn't occur in available, combustible form in any location .   .   .


 
Pybyr, all you say is true at this point in time.  As soon as technology advances to the place where we can put very large solar arrays in geosynchronous orbits, learn to convert, albeit at a conversion loss (that will be refined to a small percentage) that electric energy to a beamable and safe electromagnetic form that can be reconverted to electricity, we will use some of that energy to electrolyze water to its 2 components and use the hydrogen component in the current place of fossil fuels.


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## infinitymike (Apr 18, 2012)

SmokeEater said:


> Pybyr, all you say is true at this point in time. As soon as technology advances to the place where we can put very large solar arrays in geosynchronous orbits, learn to convert, albeit at a conversion loss (that will be refined to a small percentage) that electric energy to a beamable and safe electromagnetic form that can be reconverted to electricity, we will use some of that energy to electrolyze water to its 2 components and use the hydrogen component in the current place of fossil fuels.


 
Ok now you guys are taking it to a whole nother level.  I just wanted to keep it simple. A step or two above a caveman...burn wood .. make heat.. make gas ... make electric.

Next you"ll be talking about how to split the hydrogen cell and harness that energy even though it may have some conversion loss.


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## pybyr (Apr 19, 2012)

barkeatr said:


> the three young swedish fellas that put that car togeher goes to show good ol fashioned techno geek is everywhere and shall rule the world. interested in this listeroid. is that on the GEK forum?
> 
> Tim


 
Been flat out during both days and evenings so just now having a chance to circle back.  You can find the specific discussion on the unfolding wood-gas only running of a listeroid at:

http://wiki.gekgasifier.com/w/page/30448258/Spark conversion for Lister slow speed diesel engines

The author also previously started a YahooGroup of owners or interested folks regarding the Lister CS long-stroke low RPM open flywheel engines- it's called ListerCSOG and contains some pretty ingenious folks.

He's also done some fascinating work on low-tech residential scale combined heat and power:
http://www.powercubes.com/listers.html 
(look also at his earlier veg-oil fueled lister experiments on prior pages (at bottom) where he used the heat from the engine for space heating use)

Unfortunately, original Lister CS engines are uncommon in the US, and imports of the "clones" (AKA Listeroids) has been brought to a halt by US diesel emissions regs (I support clean air and use of best reasonably available technology on new medium and large diesels, but this strikes me as a situation where one-size-fits-all regulation has stifled something that could represent appropriate technology and a path to innovation).  Canadian folks may not be quite so limited and there may be ways that "the determined" can work around this by bringing in parts and sub-assemblies....  I have a pre-ban Listeroid 6/1 in my barn but it's so far been parked in the dormant "too many projects not enough time" category.

BTW, I am skeptical that a downdraft gasifier of the sort that many/most here in the Boiler room use or are considering can be readily "run" (or modified to run) "hands off" in a steady state that will output consistent woodgas (engine-suitable) for any significant length of time-- but I will be the first to be delighted if someone proves otherwise!


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