# replacing zero clearance fireplaces



## Mt Ski Bum (Feb 24, 2011)

Hi everyone-

I'm wonder, how easy is it to totally replace an old zero-clearance fireplace with a new EPA-approve ZC fireplace?

I'm asking partly just out of interest, & partly, because if everything goes as plans & I end up settling down in my new place that I'm moving into this spring for a while (longer than just a season or 2), I'd like to get permission from the owner to replace the old inefficient ZC fireplace with a new one, like an FPX or Heat N Glo North Star, that could act as a serious heater for the whole house.

Here's a pic. of a similar fireplace in another unit: 
http://www.bigskyrealestateguide.com/images/uploaded/GALLATIN173561C.JPG


If I ever do have such a thing done, it is probably at least half a year away, so I'm pretty much just speculating right now.


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## Mt Ski Bum (Feb 24, 2011)

Also, slightly unrelated, but does an old ZC like this one consume significantly more fuel than a newer, more efficient, like the ones I mentioned above? If so how big of a difference is there in fuel consumption?


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## begreen (Feb 24, 2011)

No problem at all, just bring dynamite and a crane... 

Seriously, it is some work, but far from impossible. There are a few examples with pictures here where folks have done this. It would be good to identify the brand of the current fireplace and the flue rating. If you are lucky enough to have class A it may be reusable. 

Several of the good ZC fireplaces are quite efficient and good heaters. Some are EPA rated phase 2 and burn quite cleanly.

I'd also investigate to possibility of installing an insert as a less costly alternative that can be installed in hours instead of days.


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## webby3650 (Feb 24, 2011)

To install a new EPA unit you will need to change the opening size by a bunch for an FPX, very intrusive and costly. BG is right on, there are several inserts that are approved for install into a pre-fab unit, the Jotul Winterport and the Travis 1750I to name a few good ones. A full liner is a must with this kinda install, it will be a whole house heater, you can take it with you if you decide to leave, and it will be much more cost friendly!


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## jimbom (Feb 24, 2011)

Twenty years ago, we thought it would be a good idea to put in a Superior ST-3840 See-Through zero clearance fireplace.  We never did take to the thing and I recently contacted Superior.  They told me nothing could be put into that unit.  So we have been kinda looking for a small low rear exit hearth mount.  I would go for an insert if I could get one that met the insurance requirements.  I will have to ask how that works.  If Jotul for instance says their installation meets or exceeds, that should be good for insurance purposes.

Thanks for the thread.


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## webby3650 (Feb 24, 2011)

JimboM said:
			
		

> Twenty years ago, we thought it would be a good idea to put in a Superior ST-3840 See-Through zero clearance fireplace.  We never did take to the thing and I recently contacted Superior.  They told me nothing could be put into that unit.  So we have been kinda looking for a small low rear exit hearth mount.  I would go for an insert if I could get one that met the insurance requirements.  I will have to ask how that works.  If Jotul for instance says their installation meets or exceeds, that should be good for insurance purposes.
> 
> Thanks for the thread.


Sorry, not gonna find an approved insert for a see through.


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## Mt Ski Bum (Feb 25, 2011)

I have been considering an insert also, but I guess one of the reasons I was leaning towards replacing the fireplace itself was that I would be able to run heat ducts from it to other rooms (see diagram below), plus I've never really liked the way inserts stick out of the fireplace onto the hearth.  I think a new fireplace would also produce more heat than an insert. 
An insert isn't out of the question, but if given a choice, I would go with a new fireplace...


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## madison (Feb 25, 2011)

From the picture, you will have some major hearth extension issues as well.  Like begreen observed, you will need some dyn -O-mite to blast the existing hearth stones.

If you want, when I'm cruising by on 191  fishing this spring i'll take a look at it, haha


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## Mt Ski Bum (Feb 28, 2011)

Ok, if I go with an insert, I'm trying to decide between Avalon's Ranier insert or Lopi's 1750 insert (Avalon doesn't offer their 1750 in an insert, unfortunately)... I can't decide which one would be better... the 1750 has a slightly bigger firebox, but can only accept 18" logs vs. the Ranier which can accept 20" logs... I also like the looks of the Ranier a bit better. Ugh... if only Travis Industry's flush-fitting insert (Lopi Declaration/Avalon PerfectFit/ FPX 33 Elite) were approved for pre-fab fireplaces...


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## Mt Ski Bum (Feb 28, 2011)

also, would it be practical at all to remove the old ZC firebox, & instead of trying to install a new ZC firebox, simply use the fireplace opening left behind to put a larger non-ZC approved insert in?


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## FPX Dude (Feb 28, 2011)

I'd rip out the ZC all together.  Look thru the pic's for ideas of insert options or freestanding.  Any of these will give you bigger firebox and longer burn times.  Just my $.03  (yep, prices just went up, ha!)


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## Got Wood (Feb 28, 2011)

FPX Dude said:
			
		

> I'd rip out the ZC all together.


Thats what I did. Will be a lot more work and will cost more but you end up having what you want. No regrets on my part and the project was fun. Ripped everything out and started from scratch. I did the demo and prep work for the install, had the FPX and piping professionally installed, then I did the stone work to finish it off.


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## 98dingo (Feb 28, 2011)

I rip out those cheapos every day and replace them with HE fireplaces.  Its a good days work


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## Mt Ski Bum (Mar 1, 2011)

How easy would it be to rip out a ZC firebox like that? If it is relatively easy, then I might rip it out myself, so I wouldn't have to pay the stove place to come take out the old one, as well as installing the new one.

EDIT: Hopefully I can convince our landlord to fund the fireplace replacement project, then I won't have to worry about costs as much  hehe


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## Mt Ski Bum (Mar 1, 2011)

also, is the fact that the fireplace is on the 3rd floor going to cause a problem? I can imagine that it could be difficult getting a 400+ lb firebox up 2 sets of stairs...


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## Jimbob (Mar 1, 2011)

webby3650 said:
			
		

> JimboM said:
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You could replace it with a HIGH EFFICIENCY see thru:
http://www.icc-rsf.com/en/rsf/oracle-fireplace


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## Mt Ski Bum (Mar 1, 2011)

also, could anyone give me an idea of the approx. costs of replacing it with a new HE zero-clearance fireplace? The model I'm looking at starts at $4,209, according to the website, but what would installation costs be? I've heard that the installation costs can almost double the total price. Also, what would be the approx. cost of just putting an insert (I'm looking at the Avalon Rainier or Lopi 1750i) into the existing ZC fireplace? 

I know I have a lot of questions, but I'm just trying to get a good all-around idea of my options, etc...


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## jeremy29 (Mar 1, 2011)

See the link in my sig for my ZCF replacement. Might give you some ideas and you could possibly do to something similar with a smaller stove.


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## 73blazer (Mar 1, 2011)

Mt Ski Bum said:
			
		

> also, could anyone give me an idea of the approx. costs of replacing it with a new HE zero-clearance fireplace? The model I'm looking at starts at $4,209, according to the website, but what would installation costs be? I've heard that the installation costs can almost double the total price. Also, what would be the approx. cost of just putting an insert (I'm looking at the Avalon Rainier or Lopi 1750i) into the existing ZC fireplace?
> 
> I know I have a lot of questions, but I'm just trying to get a good all-around idea of my options, etc...



I replaced ZC bulder special unit with a North Star and never looked back. (replacement thread here)
I also looked at putting inserts in, and I had a huge firebox. If the unit you have is rated for it, it's allowed and can be done, but, I dunno, to me, that just seemed like a total cobble job. Inserts are far cheaper way to go, for sure. You have to be sure that your existing unit is rated to accept and insert. If you can find a manual for it, it should tell you that. The next thing I tried to do was save the existing  metal chimney and find a unit that could use it (when it comes to fireplaces, the chimney pipe is proprietary and you need to use same company's unit with their chimney pipe), the only unit I could find that used the same chimney pipe as the old unit, wouldn't fit in the opening I had. Chimney pipe is another $500-900 depending on height, if you have to replace it. So I ended up tearing it all out,  and improving my chase while it was empty (it wasn't insulated, and didn't have the required # of firestops..etc).
I did get some quotes for labor. That was like pulling teeth though. In my area, it seemed no one who sold these HE fireplace units knew anything about how to install them. (I'm not kidding either, I got blank stares when asking about installation). Most places simply told me to contact a licensed builder, which seemed puzzling to me since most licensed builders don't know the first thing about fire safety or how to install a ZC fireplace. 
I only found one place that did give me a quote of $3700 for the labor portion (tear out and install). I ended up doing it all, it's not difficult. If your not comfortable installing, at least you can do the tear out and save a good portion of the labor and just have a nice empty opening and chase for the "installers" to put your new unit it.

Alot of that depends on your setup. Can you get inside the chase without much trouble (my chase was on outside wall so I simply removed some siding and cut an access hole). YOu have to be able to get inside to be able to get the chimney off the old unit and be able to slide it out the front without destroying the place, and to be able to install the new unit and hook up/install the new chimney pipe.


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## FPX Dude (Mar 1, 2011)

Mt Ski Bum said:
			
		

> also, could anyone give me an idea of the approx. costs of replacing it with a new HE zero-clearance fireplace? The model I'm looking at starts at $4,209, according to the website, but what would installation costs be? I've heard that the installation costs can almost double the total price. Also, what would be the approx. cost of just putting an insert (I'm looking at the Avalon Rainier or Lopi 1750i) into the existing ZC fireplace?
> 
> I know I have a lot of questions, but I'm just trying to get a good all-around idea of my options, etc...



So I take it this is a rental and you are the renter so you're looking for more ammo to help "sell" it to the landlord.  The demo is the easy part, get yer buddies, some hammer's, prybars, sawzall, etc. and rip that thang outta there.  Also in doing so you're gonna realize how cheaply those things are made and make you appreciate even more what you'll be doing.  Probably end up having to redo the rock anyway you go, but also look at what Jeremy did, that's awesome if you decide on freestanding.  As far as getting 400 lb's up those stairs, ya it's gonna take manpower, get those buddies again 'cause you'll have to rig something up.  Don't forget you'll be carrying wood/ashes up/down those stairs too.  Definitely doable so if it's what you're after go for it, you'll luv da' heat...good luck!


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## Mt Ski Bum (Mar 1, 2011)

FPX Dude said:
			
		

> Mt Ski Bum said:
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Yep, this it is a rental, & "ammo" to sell the idea to our landlord is always handy... particularly if I can convince her to finance the replacement project (or at least part of it). 

I think I would have the dealer/professional fireplace people do the installing of the new unit, mainly because I feel installing a new fireplace is a pretty big project to be in the DIY catagory, & the only previous experience with woodstoves & fireplaces I have is burning wood in them... haha


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