# Did my firewood provider short-change me?



## Cassius (Jan 4, 2013)

Hi,

I'm new to this forum and new to firewood in general. My wife and I moved to Maine from California and this is my first experience using a wood stove to heat a house. Early in December I bought a cord of wood for delivery.

I knew it was a bit late in the season to be ordering wood and was a bit concerned I wouldn't be able to find any aged wood. I called around and found a few who said they had aged wood. The vendor I finally settled on told me that (since I needed 12 inch cuts) the wood in my cord would have been downed at tree length for about 18 months and would have to be cut to order.

The day of delivery was nice and sunny and the ground where the wood was dumped was dry enough that it should not have been a problem. Upon delivery, I immediately brought in as much wood as I could fit in our hearth.

As I said, I'm a bit new to firewood as a main source of heat. But I've had and used fireplaces since I was a kid living in Pennsylvania. So I'm not totally green -- but I'm concerned that my firewood might be. It is incredibly difficult to get a fire going and there is lots of hissing from the logs when they first get in the wood stove. The fire 'burns cool' for about a half hour and requires a fair bit of attention to keep going (even if I use a fire starter). Some of the wood is wet to the touch and even the ones that don't feel wet will sometimes have what appears to be water (no sap-like residue) dripping out of the end of the log before they really start burning.

Is this normal for firewood that has been downed at tree length for a year and a half? Should I call the vendor and complain? Help. 

Thanks for reading this far.


----------



## nate379 (Jan 4, 2013)

Could be sitting in tree length for years and years, doesn't matter. It's not going to season until it's bucked and split. Pretty much only thing you can do is wait until next winter (at least!) to burn that wood.

Where at in Maine? I might be able to hook you up with some seasoned wood if your up north.


----------



## thewoodlands (Jan 4, 2013)

Wood that has been cut,split & stacked for a year is considered seasoned. Some woods take longer than a year to season, downed tree length is not considered seasoned in my book.

Zap


----------



## Cassius (Jan 4, 2013)

Ok, thanks for the response.

I guess I'm going to suffer through winter with this wood and burn some creosote logs (or whatever they are called). Lesson learned. One good thing is the hearth gets a lot of sun and I've noticed that logs sitting in the front of the hearth for a week or so of sunny days have a noticeably improved burn. So, I'll do what I can to dry them out.

Also, we are just a bit north of Portland so pretty far south. But thanks for the offer.


----------



## Kenster (Jan 4, 2013)

Was the wood split?  I suggest resplitting it to smaller pieces.  That will speed up the process somewhat.  Keep the next load close to the stove will help a little.   To burn green wet wood, which is what you have, the stove will need lots of air.   And be sure to clean your flue fairly soon.  It'll probably be thick with creosote.  

You can buy some bio blocks to supplement your wood.  They will help give a hotter fire. 

You're not going to get much heat out of wet wood.  All the energy is going to remove the water from the wood, not produce heat.  
Buy another load or two now so that you'll be in better shape for next winter.   You might also try scrounging around for wood pallets to bust up.  They will help you get through this year.


----------



## Cassius (Jan 4, 2013)

I'll also add that I've been doing the following to try to improve things a bit. Any other suggestions would be appreciated.

When I have a fire going, I have six logs stacked on top of the stove and around the stove pipe, obviously this heats them so they will burn a bit better when they go. It also dries them a bit should they not be used for that particular fire. I also stand a few up along the side for the same reason. For those logs that have bark, I try to do this until the bark 'bakes' off (or at least can be peeled) and then continue for a bit to drive out the moisture that sits just under the bark.

And as mentioned above, I try to get as many logs into direct sunlight (indoors) as possible.

Finally, if a fire is dying but still giving off heat, I'll stick a log in there just to get a little drying action.


----------



## Cassius (Jan 4, 2013)

Kenster said:


> Was the wood split? I suggest resplitting it to smaller pieces. That will speed up the process somewhat. Keep the next load close to the stove will help a little. To burn green wet wood, which is what you have, the stove will need lots of air. And be sure to clean your flue fairly soon. It'll probably be thick with creosote.
> 
> You can buy some bio blocks to supplement your wood. They will help give a hotter fire.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks, I guess we were typing at the same time.

I'm actually not worried about making it through this year (even with this wood). What I didn't mention in my first post is that the house has a solar heating component and can really heat up on a sunny day (as long as it is 20+ outside).. The wood stove gets a lot of use but in reality it is just there to top off when the solar isn't delivering enough heat.

My main concern with this wood is the creosote. We'll make it through this winter with probably enough for next year to spare.


----------



## Jon1270 (Jan 4, 2013)

> When I have a fire going, I have six logs stacked on top of the stove and around the stove pipe, obviously this heats them so they will burn a bit better when they go.


 
That's really friggin' dangerous.


----------



## Jon1270 (Jan 4, 2013)

Another idea, though: if you were by some chance able to find some wood for sale that was actually dry but too long for your stove, you'd do well to buy that wood _and_ a small chainsaw to hack it into usable lengths.


----------



## Cassius (Jan 4, 2013)

Jon1270 said:


> That's really friggin' dangerous.


 
With drier wood, I would never do this. But sadly, I feel very safe doing it with this wood. I do check it every 45 minutes -- and I work in a loft which is directly above the stove so I would also smell it if it started to burn.


----------



## firefighterjake (Jan 4, 2013)

Cassius said:


> I'll also add that I've been doing the following to try to improve things a bit. Any other suggestions would be appreciated.
> 
> *When I have a fire going, I have six logs stacked on top of the stove and around the stove pipe*, obviously this heats them so they will burn a bit better when they go. It also dries them a bit should they not be used for that particular fire. I also stand a few up along the side for the same reason. For those logs that have bark, I try to do this until the bark 'bakes' off (or at least can be peeled) and then continue for a bit to drive out the moisture that sits just under the bark.
> 
> ...


 
Please stop this dangerous practice immediately. Now I'll take off my firefighter's helmet and put on my helpful hearth.com hat . . .

* Chaulk this up to a lesson learned . . . seasoned wood is wood that is cut, split and stacked for a year or more or when it reaches X% for moisture content (I think most folks recommend 20% or less). If buying wood your two best choices are to either get a moisture meter and specify to the seller that you need seasoned wood of X% for your modern woodstove or buy the wood well in advance and season the wood yourself by just letting it sit in a stack for a year or so.

* Splitting smaller and exposing the wood to the sun and wind will help . . . as will bringing it inside near (but not on top and well away from the minimum clearances of the) woodstove.

* If you're near Portland you will have no problem finding pallets . . . it will take a bit to bust up or cut up with a Sawz-all or chainsaw, but if you add the pallet wood with the semi-seasoned wood you can get a fire that will be fair . . . heck, it may even seem to burn great . . . until you get a-hold of truly seasoned wood.

* Check and clean your chimney regularly . . . at least once a month . . . maybe even more. Burning unseasoned wood can quickly gunk up your chimney.

* You may also have some luck if you do a search and see if anyone in the area is selling kiln-dried firewood . . . it's more expensive, but may burn much better and get you by for this year.

Please do not be a fire statistic . . .


----------



## firefighterjake (Jan 4, 2013)

Cassius said:


> With drier wood, I would never do this. But sadly, I feel very safe doing it with this wood. I do check it every 45 minutes -- and I work in a loft which is directly above the stove so I would also smell it if it started to burn.


 
This sounds good in theory . . . but in practice it is so easy to get distracted and forget about this. Please try to find another option or we may end up reading about this very nice person from California that moved to Maine and apparently didn't realize that putting wood close to a woodstove is a bad habit.


----------



## Jon1270 (Jan 4, 2013)

> I feel very safe doing it with this wood. I do check it every 45 minutes


 
And then one day you have a couple of beers, you feel a little sleepy, you close your eyes for just a moment, and your whole world goes to hell.

I'm a professional woodworker. There are a lot of time-saving risky stunts with power tools that I can get away with when I'm well-rested and sharp, but I studiously avoid them because I know that they'd easily become habits, and habits persist even when you're tired and foggy.


----------



## Cassius (Jan 4, 2013)

OK, I will modify my practices somewhat. Probably not as much as you guys think I should; but enough to significantly reduce the risks you have discussed.


----------



## Kenster (Jan 4, 2013)

When you say "logs,"   are you really talking about splits?   A six inch log is quite different from a six inch split.  Any log needs to be split into four or more pieces to speed up the drying.  OR, allowed to season for a few years because it takes a lonnnngg time to season an unsplit log.

Be safe, above all.


----------



## Cassius (Jan 4, 2013)

Sorry, I do mean splits as you have surmised.

And yes I will stay safe. I do appreciate the safety related advice. What I am going to do is stop putting logs directly on the stove and instead will put them around the stove (not going to worry too much about the distance as I will continue to check them every 45 minutes and will ALWAYS set a reminder on my iPhone to make sure I keep to that schedule). I will focus mainly on getting the bark off those splits that have it since such a large portion of the moisture seems to be there.

I may, from time to time put a few logs directly on the stove, but only if I am in the room and only if it is day light (so I won't fall asleep). In those cases I will also use the reminder.

I know some of my comments above make me sound like some wild and loose guy who doesn't know what he is doing. But actually I am quite mindful of dangers in general  and I have a lot of experience with building and keeping fires. So I had a high degree of confidence in the methods I talked about above (due to the condition of this wood). But when other people start setting off alarms I tend to give something like this a hard think and I will err on the side of caution (though that's rarely erring, is it?).


----------



## nate379 (Jan 4, 2013)

If I were in your shoes I would probably give up on trying to use that wood for this year and source other wood.


----------



## rideau (Jan 4, 2013)

If you have alot of experience building and keeping fires, how did you not know better than to get in this situation? 

Listen to the advice here.

At a minimum, keep the wood off the stove and away from the stack.  You can split the wood smaller, supplement your wood with kiln dried, pallet, or trash cut offs from a lumber yard, or with some pressed hardwood bricks (there are a few that are good, and they aren't too expensive). 

If you stack the wood inside an inch or two off the ground and out from the wall, with good air space between the splits, near the stove or in the sun, and aim a good fan at the stack, on high, the wood will dry out surprisingly fast...and a lot more safely than setting it on the stove.

There is no need to get the bark off.  Much more drying happens out of the ends and split surface.  Forget the bark.


----------



## Cassius (Jan 4, 2013)

rideau said:


> If you have alot of experience building and keeping fires, how did you not know better than to get in this situation?


 
I said "building and keeping" -- not "purchasing" (at least by the cord).


----------



## rideau (Jan 4, 2013)

Cassius said:


> I said "building and keeping" -- not "purchasing" (at least by the cord).


 
Fact remains, folks who are giving you advice here know lots more than you or I about safety around a wood stove.

They have no axe to grind. Their comments are entirely in the interest of your safety.

Please listen to them.

And I would NEVER purchase wood from the supplier again.  He clearly took advantage of your lack of familiarity with purchasing firewood, since you seemingly made it clear you were looking for dry wood.


----------



## Shane N (Jan 4, 2013)

Stacking wood on a stove? Uff da.

Like nate said, stack this wood outside and wait to use it until next year (assuming it isn't oak). Find dry wood (kiln dried, pallets, etc) to burn this year.

That way you are a year ahead and you don't die. Win/win.


----------



## jatoxico (Jan 4, 2013)

Welcome to the forum Cassius. If you stick around here the knowledge base can help you get through what sounds like a tough start. Have to agree with others. Your wood sounds absolutely green and very wet. Season the stuff you bought for another year and find an alternative. Pressed wood bricks are about $300 a ton around my area and are supposed to be roughly = to a cord. If finances don't permit it use pallets, lumber scraps or a combo of all the above. Mybe you can find a local burner who is ahead of the game willing to swap out some seasoned wood or sell you some.

What type of stove do you have and do you know what kind of wood you purchased?

Oh and listen to the safety suggestions, be safe.


----------



## DanCorcoran (Jan 4, 2013)

And when someone mentioned creosote "gunking up" your chimney, it not just the problem of a mess.  Creosote buildup can lead to an extremely hot, uncontrollable fire in the chimney.  There are many stories (in Maine) of homes burning down due to chimney fires.  That's why the option of using another fuel source this year is not just a convenience item, but a significant safety concern.


----------



## Gasifier (Jan 4, 2013)

First. Welcome to the forum Cassius. Good to have you.
Second. Maine is one beautiful place. Only have been there once and hope to return in a few years.
Third. Get that wood split and stacked outside. It will dry enough in 10 months to start burning next year.
Fourth. Try to get a hold of some wood now or in the spring. Get it split and stacked ASAP. Then next season it will be ready.
Fifth. Learn what types of wood you can get in your area. And how fast they dry. Ash dries the quickest. Splits super easy.
Sixth. Remember, it may take a little more time, but if you split your wood smaller, say 4-7 inch splits, it will dry faster for ya.
Seventh. Never put wood on your stove. Never. And never stack any wood closer than two feet from your stove. Never.

Want to talk about experience in burning. There have been several people who have lost there home, or worse, in Northern New York who had plenty of experience burning wood. Be very, very careful.

Keep reading the post on hearth.com, you will learn a lot about your new hobby in a short amount of time.


----------



## weatherguy (Jan 4, 2013)

rideau said:


> Fact remains, folks who are giving you advice here know lots more than you or I about safety around a wood stove.
> 
> They have no axe to grind. Their comments are entirely in the interest of your safety.
> 
> ...


 
I dont think he took advantage of the guy I think a lot of firewood sellers THINK that once the tree is cut the seasoning process starts, I know my brother in law whos been in the wood cutting/selling business for 40 years still thinks that, no matter what I tell him, he thinhks Im an idiot and since I just started burning 4 years ago I dont know a damn thing.
If you have the money you can buy bio bricks and mix them with the wood or try finding someone that actually sells seasoned wood, they're out there but few and far between and I wouldnt hand over the cash without asking the guy when he split the wood and testing it with a moisture meter, you can get one for under $30 at Lowes or online cheaper.

edit: wanted to add one more thing, if you have or get oak in the future it takes 2-3 years to season minimum.

good luck


----------



## basod (Jan 4, 2013)

I wouldn't start bashing your firewood dealer.
You needed non-standard 12" wood that they cut and split on order - and delivered in early December.
If this was an open hearth wouldn't be a huge deal, running a wood stove/insert requires dry wood.

I grew up in southern Maine - firewood sellers are a different breed, and they smell (used to be called yuppies) out of staters a mile away.
Most of these folks want clean looking wood and have no idea about moisture content as they typically burn in open hearths.

In the mean time see if you can source some pallets or look for construction sites nearby and ask the builders if they have any cutoff piles you could scrounge.
Mix the dry with some of the splits or bricks for now.

If this dealer didn't short you or was reasonable price, call and get him to deliver now for next year, and if you can afford it buy multiple cords


----------



## Cassius (Jan 4, 2013)

Regardless of the time of year, I paid for aged wood and I paid them what they asked for the custom length. And they knew I was looking for wood that I could burn this year. I realize that wood dealers may be a different breed and that they might look to take advantage of people who are new to this. But that doesn't excuse it. 

I'm not necessarily looking to cause them a big headache but at this point my options are:

1) Burn this wood and deal with the risks and expenses associated with creosote.
2) Purchase kiln dried wood at an increased expense. This has it's own problems because my wife and I are renting and expecting to buy soon and I wasn't even sure we would be here long enough to burn all of this wood. So if I buy another cord I'm looking at three winters to burn through what I've purchased.
3) Go scrapping, which wouldn't be an effective use of my time and we drive a little hybrid so I'm not going to be hauling pallets around.

So yeah, I'm a bit miffed.

Yeah it's buyer beware and all that. I understand  But a businessperson who doesn't want to end up with an upset customer should make sure they are actually selling what the customer wants.

Anyway, what seems best is option #1 along with drying the wood by the "fan method" mentioned above. I know the chimney was checked this last summer and was deemed clean by the landlord's "guy". So maybe I can have him stop by for a check only (no cleaning) for a few bucks and see where things stand.


----------



## Backwoods Savage (Jan 4, 2013)

Cassius said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm new to this forum and new to firewood in general. My wife and I moved to Maine from California and this is my first experience using a wood stove to heat a house. Early in December I bought a cord of wood for delivery.
> 
> ...


 

Welcome to the forum Cassius.


I won't harp on things as the other guys have covered things pretty well. However, I'd like to give you an example so you can compare a bit. The wood you bought was downed in tree length for 18 months. We know that is not ready to burn. But just a month ago my wife and I picked up some wood from a neighbor. His woods was cut off over 10 years ago. Then the tops were cut by a firewood supplier. When they left, they also left some large blocks or logs; probably didn't have room and not enough for another load so they just got left. There were some really big ones too. Most were cut into 16" lengths, but not split. We also found a couple 4' and 6' logs. All of this wood had sat there for the last 10 years! One might think the wood no good at all. Not so! Hey, the wood had sat there so long most was at least 1/3 buried in the ground.

Here is the good part. It is all white oak and even after 10 years, there is no way that wood could be burned this year! I am guessing it might be good in 2 years but we probably will leave it longer simply because we won't need it before then.

The point I wish to make is that wood just will not dry until it has been cut to firewood length and then split. After being split, it needs to be stacked out in the wind. Yes, air circulation is more important than sunshine! Air circulation is the big key.

Good luck.


----------



## jatoxico (Jan 4, 2013)

Cassius said:


> 2) Purchase kiln dried wood at an increased expense. This has it's own problems because my wife and I are renting and expecting to buy soon and I wasn't even sure we would be here long enough to burn all of this wood. So if I buy another cord I'm looking at three winters to burn through what I've purchased.


 
Wood bricks are about same money as kiln dried but store more easily and are packaged in plastic wrap so could take to new place when that happens.


----------



## weatherguy (Jan 4, 2013)

jatoxico said:


> Wood bricks are about same money as kiln dried but store more easily and are packaged in plastic wrap so could take to new place when that happens.


 
Was just going to make the same suggestion, you dont have to buy by the pallet, you can buy packages from a TSC and if you hit a sale they're pretty cheap. If I was in a position like you currently find yourself, Id buy some of these to mix in http://www.woodpellets4me.com/bioprod-cozylogs.html


----------



## Jon1270 (Jan 4, 2013)

Keep in mind that the wood you've got now, which is nearly worthless if you burn it this winter, will actually be worth quite a lot more next winter -- possibly enough more to compensate you for the trouble of moving it to a new place.  Burning it before it's ready is like throwing money away; you've bought high and are currently selling low.  Keeping it until it appreciates (and it will do so, very predictably) may involve some short-term costs, but is still a good investment.


----------



## bogydave (Jan 4, 2013)

Welcome

Glad you joined & are hanging in there & learning.
You are learning the lessons most of us here have gone thru.
98.5% of the time, seasoned wood (aged ) sold by a wood seller is not ready to burn.
Could be they believe it starts seasoning after a frost or after it's fell, but seasoned for how long & what method is the big queston.

We all had to learn: (like you I learned the hard way, & had serious creosote issues)

Now I know:
It only starts drying out (seasoning) after it Cut Split & Stacked off the ground in an area where it can get some air circulation.
AND it take at least a year for most wood & some wood can take 2 or 3 years to season well & be dry & ready to burn & not cause creosote 

Good luck


----------



## peakbagger (Jan 5, 2013)

Very few new wood burners get it "right" the first winter and if you figure out a way of making it through this winter, you will be far wiser next winter. There are many folks who burn less than dry wood and with older style stoves they can get away with it. If the wood dealer caters to those customers he can get away with selling wood at a higher moisture content.  

On the other hand add an EPA stove to the mix and a less than ideal draft and less than dry wood and the stove will probably refuse to burn. Once you get your own place and get a years worth of wood ahead, even if the wood you buy is green, if you stack it and store it properly its going to burn pretty well. I would suggest you stay away from buying oak and stick to northern hardwoods like maple, ash and white birch (split). They all tend to season in a year while Oak is two to three years. Oak ultimately burns longer if its dry and has a higher BTU content but if its wet those benefits dont come into effect.

There are some good firewood dealers but they have steady customers and rarely advertise, the folks who advertise in local classifieds or craiglist  tend to be the folks who do this part time "under the table" and rarely are they going to cut and split and stack a year before to make sure the wood they sell is dry.

I would encourage you to get your hands on a bundle or two of truly kiln dried hardwood and have a fire, if the stove runs well and performs like you want it to, then its worth getting dry wood, but if it doesnt that may be sign that the installation or the stove itself is not right.

Good luck.


----------



## maple1 (Jan 5, 2013)

I don't see where you said you took this advice offered a few times, so I'll repeat it: re-split your wood.

Re-split it very small, pile or arrange loosely around the heat like your doing, and it will dry very quickly in the interior dry warmth - especially if you can set up a small fan blowing slowly on it for a few hours a day. Start doing it now and you'd have some you could likely burn quite well in a couple of weeks. Way better IMO than trying to scrounge dry stuff elsewhere at this time of the year.


----------



## Mr A (Jan 5, 2013)

Cassius said:


> Ok, thanks for the response.
> 
> I guess I'm going to suffer through winter with this wood and burn some creosote logs (or whatever they are called). Lesson learned. One good thing is the hearth gets a lot of sun and I've noticed that logs sitting in the front of the hearth for a week or so of sunny days have a noticeably improved burn. So, I'll do what I can to dry them out.
> 
> Also, we are just a bit north of Portland so pretty far south. But thanks for the offer.


 No need to suffer! You shouldn't have much of a problem finding some good dry wood to burn. Keep an eye on Craigslist for free wood, it's crazy I know, but people just give away firewood all the time. I have 10 cords collected in just 9 months. i'm burning pallets as I type this. Many are made from hardwoods, and they are nice and dry. Just cut 'em up, they burn good and hot and coal well. I do have to turn the air down because they burn too hot. I find the best pallets at mason supply yards, steel trench plate suppliers, construction sites- Think heavy stuff. I have collected dunnage that comes from steel delivery to construction sites, good stuff.


----------



## DanCorcoran (Jan 5, 2013)

maple1 said:


> I don't see where you said you took this advice offered a few times, so I'll repeat it: re-split your wood.
> 
> Re-split it very small, pile or arrange loosely around the heat like your doing, and it will dry very quickly in the interior dry warmth - especially if you can set up a small fan blowing slowly on it for a few hours a day. Start doing it now and you'd have some you could likely burn quite well in a couple of weeks. Way better IMO than trying to scrounge dry stuff elsewhere at this time of the year.


 

I just put two and two together: many folks complain about the lack of humidity when using a woodstove. Others complain their wood is too wet. Solution: dry the wood indoors!

I'm already working on the design for a livingroom wood drying line...kind of like a clothesline, but stronger.  You could have splits dangling all around the living room!


----------



## Snotrocket (Jan 5, 2013)

Where exactly in Maine are you? I know somebody who sells kiln dried in the Damariscotta area.

You should be buying next years firewood now, or at least be in the process of splitting it if you're doing it yourself.


----------



## bluedogz (Jan 5, 2013)

Cassius said:


> When I have a fire going, I have six logs stacked on top of the stove and around the stove pipe, obviously this heats them so they will burn a bit better when they go. It also dries them a bit should they not be used for that particular fire. I also stand a few up along the side for the same reason. For those logs that have bark, I try to do this until the bark 'bakes' off (or at least can be peeled) and then continue for a bit to drive out the moisture that sits just under the bark..


 
I understand the thinking... but please don't do this.


----------



## maple1 (Jan 5, 2013)

DanCorcoran said:


> I just put two and two together: many folks complain about the lack of humidity when using a woodstove. Others complain their wood is too wet. Solution: dry the wood indoors!
> 
> I'm already working on the design for a livingroom wood drying line...kind of like a clothesline, but stronger. You could have splits dangling all around the living room!


 
But don't forget to re-split it small. Very important for drying times approaching anything 'quick'.


----------

