# Wife wants mini-split for bedroom/hallway, options



## mass_burner (Apr 3, 2014)

Okay, so she wants this for those rare occasions when heat/humidity get so bad we need an AC. We have awning windows, so window unti not an option. I would like a unit to heat also, in winter I run wood stoves in the main living areas, LR/KIT, family room, DR all open floor plan, the furnace for these zones barely ever comes on. At night we close the one door separating the "common area" from the bedrooms/bathrooms. Overnight in this area is where we use most of the oil.

Do MS's do a good job of cooling and heating? Would electric be preferable to gas?


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## AK13 (Apr 3, 2014)

Do you heat with natural gas or propane? Based on current prices in our area the natural gas is most likely cheaper than heat pump. If propane, then heat pumps for sure. 

I would get a heat pump vs. cooling only unit anyway though. The heat pump hardly costs any more than cooling only and would be ideal for shoulder season heating and maybe even cheaper than natural gas when temps are in the 40's and above. 

If you want maximum heating performance then Mitsuibshi Hyperheat is the way to go. If low temp heating isn't a priority then a unit from Mitsubishi, Fujitsu or Daikin would be my recommendation. IMO those are the top tier brands.


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## mass_burner (Apr 3, 2014)

We have NG hookup, but only use it for cooking, but its there. No propane.


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## AK13 (Apr 3, 2014)

Yikes, you have NG in the house and you are burning oil! I bet you'd have a very good payback to swap out your oil furnace for an NG one. 

A mini-split heat pump would still be a nice way to add A/C to the house. But in terms of a payback your best "investment" would be to heat with NG instead of oil. 

How do you heat your hot water?


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## mass_burner (Apr 3, 2014)

AK13 said:


> Yikes, you have NG in the house and you are burning oil! I bet you'd have a very good payback to swap out your oil furnace for an NG one.
> 
> A mini-split heat pump would still be a nice way to add A/C to the house. But in terms of a payback your best "investment" would be to heat with NG instead of oil.
> 
> How do you heat your hot water?


 

The PO upgraded to a new Buderus burner/storage tank in 2007. Estimate to switch to NG, even with subsidiies, was 14k. I couldn't see ripping out a very efficient burner and paying 14k to do it. I put in another insert instead. I've used 215 gals since 11/5/13, probably can make it to 11/5/14 with 50 more gals. Hot water with oil too, but that takes very little.

Does a heat pump have to run on propane?


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## Ashful (Apr 3, 2014)

I have installed a few minisplits, all Mitsubishi.  I have one heating and cooling my music studio right now, with auto change-over.  They do the job, and they're about as efficient as any other heat pump option.  A propane or nat.gas backup is NOT an option with Mitsubishi, but perhaps others.  They do have some nice hidden ceiling, wall, and toe-kick indoor units / evaporators, in addition to the standard wall mounted units.  I'm sort of wishing I had done a ceiling mounted unit or two in my most recent install, instead of the standard wall unit, but I don't have much experience with those.

One issue with any minisplit is the drain.  Installers have told me they want a pretty aggressive and continuous downward slope on that drain.  I don't know why, but suspect they must have had some drain issues in the past.


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## maple1 (Apr 4, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> The PO upgraded to a new Buderus burner/storage tank in 2007. Estimate to switch to NG, even with subsidiies, was 14k. I couldn't see ripping out a very efficient burner and paying 14k to do it. I put in another insert instead. I've used 215 gals since 11/5/13, probably can make it to 11/5/14 with 50 more gals. Hot water with oil too, but that takes very little.
> 
> Does a heat pump have to run on propane?


 
Heat pumps run on electricity.


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## AK13 (Apr 4, 2014)

Ahh, I see. You don't have a furnace. You have a boiler. Furnaces heat air. $14k sounds very steep. But regardless if you are only burning 200+ gallons of oil a year then I agree that there is not a reason to swap out a nice Buderus boiler.  

Condensate drains can be an issue for some installs.If you are on an exterior wall then its easy. If on an interior wall and over basement then probably easy since you can go down the wall and find a place to tie in in the basement (laundry standpipe, etc).


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## mass_burner (Apr 4, 2014)

AK13 said:


> Ahh, I see. You don't have a furnace. You have a boiler. Furnaces heat air. $14k sounds very steep. But regardless if you are only burning 200+ gallons of oil a year then I agree that there is not a reason to swap out a nice Buderus boiler.
> 
> Condensate drains can be an issue for some installs.If you are on an exterior wall then its easy. If on an interior wall and over basement then probably easy since you can go down the wall and find a place to tie in in the basement (laundry standpipe, etc).


 

We have both options, we're thinking of putting it on an exterior wall in the master BR; but we also have full basement with lots of headroom. I was thinking at the end of the hallway for more even distribution. I don't suppose there are models that can cool/heat and humidify.


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## velvetfoot (Apr 4, 2014)

Would the cool air sink downstairs before it cooled off the master bedroom?


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## mass_burner (Apr 4, 2014)

downstairs? we don't have a second story.


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## velvetfoot (Apr 4, 2014)

Well, then I guess it won't sink downstairs.


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## mass_burner (Apr 28, 2014)

The specs on the M-series heat pump gives the btu's, but how can I tell how big a space this will heat/cool. I'm wondering if a centrally located single unit at the end of the hallway (at the opening to two bedrooms) will heat/cool those bedrooms, hallway, and adjoining baths.  

Cooling:
Rated Capacity  9000 Btu/h (2.64 kW) *1 
Capacity Range  2800 - 9000 BTU/h (0.8 - 2.6 kW) 

Heating at 47° F
Rated Capacity  10900 Btu/h (3.2 kW) *2 
Capacity Range  3000 - 18000 Btu/h (0.9 - 5.3 kW) 

Heating at 17° F 
Maximum Capacity  12500 Btu/h (3.7 kW)


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## Ashful (Apr 28, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> The specs on the M-series heat pump gives the btu's, but how can I tell how big a space this will heat/cool.


Three possible ways to go at this:

1.  Heat loss calculations, based on assumed typical values (experience).
2.  IR camera and blower door test data.
3.  Experience with your existing system (how big is it?  does it do the job?  how many window units did it take to keep cool in July?).


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## AK13 (Apr 28, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> I don't suppose there are models that can cool/heat and humidify.



There are no mini-splits that humidify. They DE-humidify though.


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## mass_burner (Apr 29, 2014)

AK13 said:


> There are no mini-splits that humidify. They DE-humidify though.


 

maybe while we're getting an HP estimate we can ask about humidifying in the winter. hate waking up in the night with dry nose/mouth. i have a portable humidfier on wheels but its pretty big, a tad noisy.


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## mass_burner (Apr 29, 2014)

Joful said:


> Three possible ways to go at this:
> 
> 1.  Heat loss calculations, based on assumed typical values (experience).
> 2.  IR camera and blower door test data.
> 3.  Experience with your existing system (how big is it?  does it do the job?  how many window units did it take to keep cool in July?).


 

what about 15 * volume = BTU's needed


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## AK13 (Apr 30, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> what about 15 * volume = BTU's needed



I've never seen that rule of thumb. Any idea what the basis is? You are basically saying 15 btu/hr/cubic foot. That is a new one to me. Is that sizing for heating or cooling?


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## mass_burner (Apr 30, 2014)

saw


AK13 said:


> I've never seen that rule of thumb. Any idea what the basis is? You are basically saying 15 btu/hr/cubic foot. That is a new one to me. Is that sizing for heating or cooling?


 

saw it online, can't remember where. thought it would be familiar.


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## moey (Apr 30, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> what about 15 * volume = BTU's needed



There is no general rule when it comes to BTU's

slant fin has a heat loss program its pretty good http://www.pvsullivan.com/Downloads.html I dont know why they no longer have it on their website they have a android/iphone app on there but not the windows version. Keep in mind garbage in garbage out.


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## mass_burner (Apr 30, 2014)

okay, so here are the room sizes. all cielings 8'.
1 BR, 12 x 12,
1 BR, 15 x 20, including bath,
hallway, 3 x 16
bath, laundry, 12 x 7
so that's 4608 cu ft.


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## mass_burner (Apr 30, 2014)

so I did the calulator at Mitsubishi website and this came out:

Cooling Capacity: *11100Btu*
Heating Capacity: *13600Btu*
SEER Rating Range: *15*


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## mass_burner (Jun 20, 2014)

estimate came in: 

option 1: 1 head unit: $5490 installed, MUZ-GE12NA / MSZ-GE12NA
option 2: 2 head unit: $7455 installed, MXZ-GE12NA/ MSZ-GE12NA, MSZ-GE09NA


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## peakbagger (Jun 20, 2014)

The equipment cost is around $2300 so the rest is installation and markup for a warrantee. At that sort of markup they can buy two and have one sit on the shelf in case your original one breaks down.

I expect a skilled crew of two could do the install in four hours if they have the right tools. It took me about 12 hours and about 2 hours to purge the lines and pump them out.


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## AK13 (Jun 20, 2014)

peakbagger said:


> The equipment cost is around $2300 so the rest is installation and markup for a warrantee. At that sort of markup they can buy two and have one sit on the shelf in case your original one breaks down.
> 
> I expect a skilled crew of two could do the install in four hours if they have the right tools. It took me about 12 hours and about 2 hours to purge the lines and pump them out.



I think you are being a big conservative there. You don't know what all is included in that quote, how long the runs are, etc. 8 man hours seems pretty optimistic to mount both units, run refrigerant piping, power wiring, condensate piping. Could be cutting and patching for line set installation (but I doubt it). You don't know if they are putting it on a nice raised stand or dropping it on pressure treated sleepers. Plus does your $2300 include the linesets, drain piping, breakers, wiring. Plus don't forget overhead. .

Sure, you could do it cheaper DIY, but I think its wrong to imply that the contractor is making a killing with "that sort of markup". The pricing looks about right.

OP, your outdoor unit model number for the multizone option looks wrong.


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## Ashful (Jun 20, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> estimate came in:
> 
> option 1: 1 head unit: $5490 installed, MUZ-GE12NA / MSZ-GE12NA
> option 2: 2 head unit: $7455 installed, MXZ-GE12NA/ MSZ-GE12NA, MSZ-GE09NA


That is just CRAZY expensive, based on our local pricing.  I've had many of these quoted, and have had three installed.  In fact, I just had your option 1 (same exact model numbers) installed at about $3k.  I had three outfits quote, and they were all $2900 - $3200.


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## Ashful (Jun 20, 2014)

Just dug up the quote for the last install:


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## peakbagger (Jun 20, 2014)

I can pull my receipts and go through them again but the last time I looked it was $2,200 for the AC unit and all the pieces. I got a price from a southern NH installer that Home Depot recommended and the price was $4,800 (assuming I ran the power to a disconnect on the wall). When I pushed back he dropped to $4,500. This was for a wall mount. I bought an overpriced premade line set that I suspect the installer would pay far less. I bought the one ton hyper heat with the highest efficiency to get the max NH rebate. I didn't buy a commercial wall mount I used unistrut and mounted it about 4' up off the ground. A commercial moutn would have taken less time so the cost would offset the extra labor. The line set runs in the vinyl snap on gutter that pros use. It took me 6 hours to build the outside rack, install it and set the outdoor unit in place and about an two hours to install the steel template on the interior wall and drill the holes and a couple of hours to wire things. I don't have the right tools on hand  so there was  a lot or wasted effort. The crew who I hired to purge and pump the lines had been putting them in several months and they claimed they could do it in 4 hours plus travel. Sure the OP may have had a lot of extras I didn't have but I still think there is plenty of profit in the job.


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## mass_burner (Jun 20, 2014)

Joful said:


> Just dug up the quote for the last install:
> 
> View attachment 134516



what does "Power wiring not included" mean?


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## mass_burner (Jun 20, 2014)

Joful said:


> Just dug up the quote for the last install:
> 
> View attachment 134516



also, when was this quote given?


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## mass_burner (Jun 20, 2014)

AK13 said:


> I think you are being a big conservative there. You don't know what all is included in that quote, how long the runs are, etc. 8 man hours seems pretty optimistic to mount both units, run refrigerant piping, power wiring, condensate piping. Could be cutting and patching for line set installation (but I doubt it). You don't know if they are putting it on a nice raised stand or dropping it on pressure treated sleepers. Plus does your $2300 include the linesets, drain piping, breakers, wiring. Plus don't forget overhead. .
> 
> Sure, you could do it cheaper DIY, but I think its wrong to imply that the contractor is making a killing with "that sort of markup". The pricing looks about right.
> 
> OP, your outdoor unit model number for the multizone option looks wrong.




sorry: 

option 1: 1 head unit: $5490 installed, MUZ-GE12NA / MSZ-GE12NA
option 2: 2 head unit: $7455 installed, MXZ-2B2ONA/ MSZ-GE12NA, MSZ-GE09NA

all power and control wiring
all refrigerant and condensate piping
start up and check system
precast concrete pad rear of house on ground with crushed stone
electrical run is about 60'. panel and new unit are opposite ends of the house.


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## mass_burner (Jun 20, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> sorry:
> 
> option 1: 1 head unit: $5490 installed, MUZ-GE12NA / MSZ-GE12NA
> option 2: 2 head unit: $7455 installed, MXZ-2B2ONA/ MSZ-GE12NA, MSZ-GE09NA
> ...



labor and materials 1 year warranty
compressor/all other parts 7 years warranty.


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## peakbagger (Jun 20, 2014)

If they are putting it on a pad, you might as well not get the heat pump option as on a pad it will get filled with snow quickly in the winter. Generally units intended for heating are mounted up off the ground and preferably out of the prevailing wind on the sunny side of the house which is contrary to what you would normally do for something intended for summer cooling. I installed temporary roof over mine mostly for snow but it does shade it somewhat in the summer but its still on the warm side of my house.


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## Ashful (Jun 20, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> what does "Power wiring not included" mean?





mass_burner said:


> also, when was this quote given?


I always insist on supplying power from the electrical panel to the outside disconnect box myself.  "Power wiring not included," simply means I'm pulling the wiring from the sub panel to where they put the outdoor unit on the pad, and they handle everything else from there.

This quote was given June 17, 2013, so almost exactly 1 year ago.  I've installed several of these over the last 4 years, using different installers each time, and the price is always right around $3k for a single MSZ/MUZ-GE12NA combo.  Your pricing almost made me fall out of my chair!  I can't say what the equipment itself costs, as I've always had them quoted with installation.


peakbagger said:


> If they are putting it on a pad, you might as well not get the heat pump option as on a pad it will get filled with snow quickly in the winter.


This is one that has always had me curious.  Mine are installed on a pad with a heat pump option, and you'd think they'd freeze up something fierce in deep snow.  But, no... the snow just seems to never pile up around them, or melt off very quickly if it does.  When I go outside the morning after a big snow storm, snow might be as deep as the outdoor unit in all directions, but there's always a clear area around the unit itself.  Doesn't make sense... as it should really be colder around the unit, unless you're operating at NEGATIVE efficiency (i.e. worse than resistance heating).


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## woodgeek (Jun 21, 2014)

But, Joful, MA does get a bit more snow than we do.  I have 8" legs under my outdoor (non-mini) unit with a vertical fan.  I think I have seen them with minis too.  I figure you're ok because of the horizontal fan axis.

Siting is important....avoid areas that will get snow shed from the roof.  Wind sheltering saves on defrost.  I think sun/shade is unimportant.


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## woodgeek (Jun 21, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> The PO upgraded to a new Buderus burner/storage tank in 2007. Estimate to switch to NG, even with subsidiies, was 14k. I couldn't see ripping out a very efficient burner and paying 14k to do it. I put in another insert instead. I've used 215 gals since 11/5/13, probably can make it to 11/5/14 with 50 more gals. Hot water with oil too, but that takes very little.



Good god man....this sounds crazy to me.  Why not just put a point source gas appliance to use for wood backup.  Some of those can be pretty cheap....certainly not $14k.  And the oil DHW takes very little?  Huh?


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## moey (Jun 21, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> And the oil DHW takes very little?  Huh?



A *properly sized modern* boiler is actually pretty good at making DHW. The problem for most people is both rarely go hand in hand.


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## woodgeek (Jun 21, 2014)

moey said:


> A *properly sized modern* boiler is actually pretty good at making DHW. The problem for most people is both rarely go hand in hand.



I've just never seen one.....details.


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## Highbeam (Jun 21, 2014)

This is a great thread but it is buried in the gas forum. As near as i can tell it never had anything to do with gas.


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## Ashful (Jun 21, 2014)

moey said:


> A *properly sized modern* boiler is actually pretty good at making DHW. The problem for most people is both rarely go hand in hand.


I have a fairly modern properly sized boiler.  It takes almost a gallon of oil a day to heat DHW, which doesn 't sound that bad, until you consider how warm it makes the basement, and remember your AC has to remove all those spare BTUs leaking upstairs.

Oh, was just out in the room with the latest mini split install. It's above the window, Mitsubishi MSZ GE12NA:


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## BrotherBart (Jun 21, 2014)

Joful said:


> It takes almost a gallon of oil a day to heat DHW, which doesn 't sound that bad,..



Or when you consider that the price of a gallon of oil is around the cost of electricity for a day for this all electric house. On a high use day.


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## Ashful (Jun 21, 2014)

Yeah... I really need to get around to the HPWH... just always too busy with other more interesting projects.


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## moey (Jun 22, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> I've just never seen one.....details.



Im not advocating oil for hot water. Its expensive on a BTU cost even if everything is perfect. If you look at some of the threads on heatinghelp.com discussing hot water production lots of folks who have monitors on their oil systems use 1/4 gallon or less. The trick seems to having a system that modulates able to put out low BTU or have a boiler that most contractors would actually consider undersize for your house. i.e it may not keep up when its -20F outside. Most folks have a 75k btu boiler which is huge in most houses. 

Back to mini splits sorry to derail....


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## Ashful (Jun 22, 2014)

OT... But well stated, nonetheless.  I get the same, "you're heating this whole house with that little thing?!?" sort Of reaction from everyone who sees my boiler.  Size it for your 80% requirement, then have supplemental sources for those infrequent very cold nights.


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## mass_burner (Jun 22, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> Good god man....this sounds crazy to me.  Why not just put a point source gas appliance to use for wood backup.  Some of those can be pretty cheap....certainly not $14k.  And the oil DHW takes very little?  Huh?


would this provide cooling too?


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## mass_burner (Jun 22, 2014)

OK, I'm getting at least 2 more quotes. Let's take a poll, with the specifics provided, is this quote too high and by how much?


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## woodgeek (Jun 22, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> would this provide cooling too?



Fair enough.  For cooling, a minisplit will be great.  Size it to cool the whole house, and put it near the bedrooms.  As for the cost...presumably when you bought your house it was cheaper for not having central AC....you have to pay to get that.

I just wasn't buying that oil heat+DHW somehow made sense because the PO laid down a bundle on a nice oil system, and someone else told you a gas system would cost $14k.  I want to see some numbers on operating costs....if you wanted to switch to gas, I expect you could swap out the oil boiler for a good bit less than $14k, or put in a gas room heater appliance, and the ROI in reduced fuel costs would be substantial.....IF you were not burning wood.

Of course, I am a huge minisplit fan (despite having a conventional ASHP myself).  With the need for AC and existing wood heating capabilities....yes of course a properly sized mini or two is a great approach.  You get good AC (quiet, no window rattlers, like central), and shoulder season BTUs that is cheaper than CSD wood.  

You could take it slow...get one mini now for AC and shoulder, get a second one in a few years, and then you could cover your heating needs, ditch the oil system all together and become a recreational wood burner.

But I would also go for an electric, gas or HP/hybrid water heater, and keep that oil burner shut down except for the coldest nights of the year and backup for travel.


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## moey (Jun 23, 2014)

You live in Mass keep that in mind when making comparisons.


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## mass_burner (Jun 23, 2014)

moey said:


> You live in Mass keep that in mind when making comparisons.



no only in MA, but the town has it own "special" markup too.


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## Ashful (Jun 23, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> no only in MA, but the town has it own "special" markup too.


Yikes.  Every time I go to New England, I'm temporarily stunned by how expensive things are up there.  I still don't understand the $5k'ish quotes, though.  The equipment cost would be the same nationally, and I believe I must have paid about $2k for the equipment, given our local labor costs of $500/man/day and having two men for a full day on the install.


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## mass_burner (Jun 25, 2014)

2nd contractor here today for a quote, he is pushing LG units. The LS121HSV3 is the size for our needs. We'll see what the price is.


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## Mpodesta (Jul 12, 2014)

Jesus Mass Burner...Those quotes.............

I having a mini split installed as well in august. I was quoted  500$ in labor + the cost of the unit.  I'm picking up the unit my self and also prepping the outdoor site myself


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## mass_burner (Jul 14, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> 2nd contractor here today for a quote, he is pushing LG units. The LS121HSV3 is the size for our needs. We'll see what the price is.



2nd quote in:

1. Single zone: labor only: 2879.00, with LG unit: 4279. 
2. Dual zone: labor only: 4162.00, with LG unit: 6128

This is all-inclusive labor and materials.


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## Ashful (Jul 14, 2014)

That is just crazy.  Typical install is 6 hours for two men.  Here we pay $500 / man / day, so total labor is under $1k.  I must pay about $2k for the Mitsu GE MSZ/MUZ-12NA's, to have a finished / installed cost of $3k.

Oh well... life in New England, eh?  Everything else is more $$ up there... except average professional salaries.


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## DIrtyJersey (Jul 23, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> 2nd quote in:
> 
> 1. Single zone: labor only: 2879.00, with LG unit: 4279.
> 2. Dual zone: labor only: 4162.00, with LG unit: 6128
> ...



So the contractor will be walking away with half of that in their pockets.

I did a job last year for a friend. I installed a 4 zone Daikin Mini split. I used 3 zones and left one open for future use. The unit runs (1) 2.5 ton indoor coil and (2) one ton coils. They had a quote of 35-40 thousand for Duct work and three conventional forced air units straight air. No heat. Now hears the kicker. I got the ductless mini split unit. 1 outdoor condensing unit. 3 indoor coils. 3 copper line sets 50 feet long, condensate pumps for indoor units. wall mounitng bracket for outdoor unit and all the control wiring. My cost was 4,300. So imagine what the mark up is with labor, misc parts etc... Not bragging. Just letting all know how they work it. Good luck with your install. They are nice units. quiet and efficient. The unit I installed was 26 seer. My friend got off quite good.


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## Mpodesta (Jul 23, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> 2nd quote in:
> 
> 1. Single zone: labor only: 2879.00, with LG unit: 4279.
> 2. Dual zone: labor only: 4162.00, with LG unit: 6128
> ...





I'm not sure what you situation is, but my install couldn't have been easier and a Friend and I did 90% of the work.  I made a nice raised pad for the outdoor unit and got everything anchored, This was the hardest part of the job. I had a friend come over and setup the indoor unit (I have 1 hand so working over head is not the easiest for me) took all of 2 hours to setup and mount the indoor unit, drill the hole and mount in the hole grommets and run the lines.

Ended up calling a locale hvac guy (first one who quoted me 500$ to do the install) to vac pump the lines out and test the refrigerant level. He charged me 145$.

So, if you can get the unit setup, just pay someone licensed to vac pump the lines and charge it, you'll save tons of $$$ compared to those outrageous quotes


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## DIrtyJersey (Jul 23, 2014)

He is correct. They are quite easy to install.


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