# got to love Mass government??????



## Doug MacIVER (Jul 11, 2018)

if this gets classified as political so be it. this is a public safety issue! Mass hand free stuck for a year in Mass house. we all know this a blue state to the nth degree, where is there concern for protecting us on the roads?
http://www.wcvb.com/article/as-texting-bill-stalls-lobbyists-cash-in/22120327


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## sportbikerider78 (Jul 12, 2018)

I don't see why it is worse killing someone because you are a horrible driver, or killing someone because you were texting your mom about where to eat dinner.  In one case, you can prosecute because the driver was distracted...in the other they suck at driving and walk away with a minor ticket, if any.
Either way, someone is dead. In one case, you can prove someone was obviously neglectful, but who cares? 

Bad drivers that have lots of accidents need to get their licences pulled.  It doesn't happen.

If you are waiting for the nanny state to protect you on the roads, I wouldn't hold your breath.


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## Doug MacIVER (Jul 12, 2018)

no difference in a death or accident. here in Mass you will pay for one or the other. 
 why have licenses, stop lts and signs, speed limits ect.. in my short drive to work each day, its seems that more times than should be people are crossing center lines or weaving all over the place. intersections get real fun at times and it's the one on a phone "nekcuf ti pu". I really don't see a nanny here just some common sense.
as an aside, our Mass legislature does this all the time. they take stuff, nothing gets done here fast with the exceptions of their pay raises or taxes.
took and pissed away millions upon millions to Conn. before opening casinos.  one could go on and on, but on the OP, put me down as not quite as cynical as you


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## bholler (Jul 12, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> I don't see why it is worse killing someone because you are a horrible driver, or killing someone because you were texting your mom about where to eat dinner.  In one case, you can prosecute because the driver was distracted...in the other they suck at driving and walk away with a minor ticket, if any.
> Either way, someone is dead. In one case, you can prove someone was obviously neglectful, but who cares?
> 
> Bad drivers that have lots of accidents need to get their licences pulled.  It doesn't happen.
> ...


You do realize people get charged in fatal accidents plenty of times right? And bad drivers do get their licences pulled as well.  I dont understand the resoning that we shouldnt bother trying to stop one dangerous thing simply because there are other things that are dangerous.  We might as well have no laws at all with that reasoning.


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## sportbikerider78 (Jul 13, 2018)

bholler said:


> You do realize people get charged in fatal accidents plenty of times right? And bad drivers do get their licences pulled as well.  I dont understand the resoning that we shouldnt bother trying to stop one dangerous thing simply because there are other things that are dangerous.  We might as well have no laws at all with that reasoning.


I know many deaths off hand where the driver is charged for "failing to yield" or something ridiculous and they are still driving. 

The reasoning is that we should enforce existing laws that make driving safer instead of making new laws.  Let's make people better drivers with more training instead of issuing DL's like candy to any 15 yr old that can see straight.


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## bholler (Jul 13, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> I know many deaths off hand where the driver is charged for "failing to yield" or something ridiculous and they are still driving.
> 
> The reasoning is that we should enforce existing laws that make driving safer instead of making new laws.  Let's make people better drivers with more training instead of issuing DL's like candy to any 15 yr old that can see straight.


So your thoughts are that we should ignore all new problems untill we completly resolve any old ones???

And btw most states dont give licences at 15 and i dont know any that dont require testing beyond an eye exam.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jul 29, 2018)

Doesnt help that Mass. is drowning in Debt. One of a half dozen states that cant fund itself anymore. It will be interesting to see  how these states handle the insolvency issue going forward.


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## Doug MacIVER (Jul 29, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Doesnt help that Mass. is drowning in Debt. One of a half dozen states that cant fund itself anymore. It will be interesting to see  how these states handle the insolvency issue going forward.


here I go again, political, they will just increase fees and taxes. put forth a 20 year study to figure if there are other solutions?!?


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## sportbikerider78 (Jul 30, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Mass. is drowning in Debt.


Perfectly predictable.


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## fbelec (Aug 2, 2018)

i being a mass resident and drive these roads way more than i like think that there should be a very high price to pay if caught texting. 9 out of 10 stupid moves or sitting thru a green light are from dopes texting or holding the phone in the air instead of up against their face and they can't see on the side they got the phone in the air. what should be done is the phone company's who ever they may be should set the phone using the gps so that if the phone is moving 5 mph or more the phone goes into i'm driving mode and doesn't work until the car is stopped. they have it set up to do it manually but should be automatic. that will leave to the cops that see someone at a green light with their head down to get a nice ticket


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## bholler (Aug 2, 2018)

fbelec said:


> i being a mass resident and drive these roads way more than i like think that there should be a very high price to pay if caught texting. 9 out of 10 stupid moves or sitting thru a green light are from dopes texting or holding the phone in the air instead of up against their face and they can't see on the side they got the phone in the air. what should be done is the phone company's who ever they may be should set the phone using the gps so that if the phone is moving 5 mph or more the phone goes into i'm driving mode and doesn't work until the car is stopped. they have it set up to do it manually but should be automatic. that will leave to the cops that see someone at a green light with their head down to get a nice ticket


Not a bad idea but that would mean passengers and commuters on busses and trains couldnt use their phones either.


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## bholler (Aug 2, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Doesnt help that Mass. is drowning in Debt. One of a half dozen states that cant fund itself anymore. It will be interesting to see  how these states handle the insolvency issue going forward.


Does that include the midwester and southern states who receive more federal aid than they pay in federal taxes?


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## Ashful (Aug 2, 2018)

The trouble with distracted driving is that it makes folks who might be otherwise competent drivers, momentarily very dangerous.  Unfortunately, auto makers are only making this problem unavoidably worse, with touch-screen computers built into the dash board of every car, and it’s not just the folks who try to program the GPS in a moving vehicle who are guilty of this.  I used to be able to adjust the radio or the climate control in my cars, without ever taking my eyes off the road, but now that’s impossible with a touch screen.  They lack the basic tactile feedback that one requires to perform basic operations in the vehicle, without taking your eyes off the road.  I am really surprised there has not been any legislation against these ergonomic decisions on the part of auto makers, not only from our own government, but from some of the more progressively safety conscious (ahem... Germany).


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 2, 2018)

bholler said:


> Does that include the midwester and southern states who receive more federal aid than they pay in federal taxes?


They all receive too much federal aid. Which will cease when the borrowed money runs out.


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## bholler (Aug 2, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> They all receive too much federal aid. Which will cease when the borrowed money runs out.


But most states on the west coast and the north east pay in more in taxes than they receive in aid.  Those states that pay more than they receive are also many of the ones in financial trouble.  Maybe if they didnt have to cover the bill for those other states they would be in better shape.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 2, 2018)

WHat


bholler said:


> Maybe if they didnt have to cover the bill for those other states they would be in better shape.


What you seem to be saying is ,the Govt should to develop a formula to pay only to each state benefits only up to the amount they pay in taxes. I dont think  ANYONE is covering the bill. The Govt is just borrowing the money to cover it. And we all know that 20T will NEVER be paid back. A hell of a way to run a country(Into the ground).


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## bholler (Aug 2, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> WHat
> 
> What you seem to be saying is ,the Govt should to develop a formula to pay only to each state benefits only up to the amount they pay in taxes. I dont think the richer states ARE covering the bill. The Govt is just borrowing the money to cover it. And we all know that 20T will NEVER be paid back. A hell of a way to run a country(Into the ground).


I agree it is a mess.  And no the states who pay more than they get dont pay near enough to cover the shortfall of the other states.  But dont act like those other states are any better simply because they rely on the federal govt to cover their states budget short falls.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 2, 2018)

You cant give away free stuff then complain when its taken.  Im sayin stop giving away so much free stuff paid for with borrowed money. Its not about any state better than another. Each state is responsible for its own budget. Mass knows what the rules in place are. Other states are not responsible for what it does with its budget. The fault for the percieved inequity  lies in the Fed Govt wanting to be all things to all people ,and do it with someone elses borrowed money.


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## BrotherBart (Aug 2, 2018)

Ashful said:


> The trouble with distracted driving is that it makes folks who might be otherwise competent drivers, momentarily very dangerous.  Unfortunately, auto makers are only making this problem unavoidably worse, with touch-screen computers built into the dash board of every car, and it’s not just the folks who try to program the GPS in a moving vehicle who are guilty of this.  I used to be able to adjust the radio or the climate control in my cars, without ever taking my eyes off the road, but now that’s impossible with a touch screen.  They lack the basic tactile feedback that one requires to perform basic operations in the vehicle, without taking your eyes off the road.  I am really surprised there has not been any legislation against these ergonomic decisions on the part of auto makers, not only from our own government, but from some of the more progressively safety conscious (ahem... Germany).



Amen. Bought a new Chrysler van that has the wonderful feature where the sound system connects to my phone for hands free calling with voice dialing. But I am going to die in a crash trying to adjust the air conditioning or selecting a song for the radio to play.


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## timfromohio (Aug 2, 2018)

YES!  I was thinking to my self this morning about how knobs have been replaced with touch screens, nested menus, etc.  My current vehicle is as 2010 Honda.  The HVAC controls and simple and I'm able to adjust temperature and fan speed without looking away from the road.  Newer ones now have touch screens.  

Don't mean to hijack thread - your statement just resonated with me big time.


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## timfromohio (Aug 2, 2018)

PS - I tried to quote Ashful's statement regarding touch screens, but it didn't appear in my response.


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## sportbikerider78 (Aug 2, 2018)

bholler said:


> But most states on the west coast and the north east pay in more in taxes than they receive in aid.  Those states that pay more than they receive are also many of the ones in financial trouble.  Maybe if they didnt have to cover the bill for those other states they would be in better shape.



Please define what aid you are talking about.  All of the studies I have seen on this, also include personal income tax rebates and such.  
Keeping in mind, all of these 'aids' are outlined by the fed.  All the states are just following the same rules and the demographics and income levels fall where they may.  
If we did a small flat fed tax with zero rebates, that would make a ton of sense to me.  But lets face it...it can never be 'fair'.  CT and MA get trillions in military spending with defense contractors and it keeps a great deal of their economy floating.  Midwest states get massive amounts of farm subsidies that keeps things going.  The list goes on and on for every state.  The fed wants it this way because then they can control local government by holding big piles of money over their heads when big votes come up.  It is legal bribery.  

We all know how states get into trouble these days.  Too much spending on entitlement programs.  It is always that obvious.


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## sportbikerider78 (Aug 2, 2018)

BrotherBart said:


> Amen. Bought a new Chrysler van that has the wonderful feature where the sound system connects to my phone for hands free calling with voice dialing. But I am going to die in a crash trying to adjust the air conditioning or selecting a song for the radio to play.


Well...2005 was bound to catch up with you at some point.


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## sportbikerider78 (Aug 2, 2018)

Ashful said:


> The trouble with distracted driving is that it makes folks who might be otherwise competent drivers, momentarily very dangerous.  Unfortunately, auto makers are only making this problem unavoidably worse, with touch-screen computers built into the dash board of every car, and it’s not just the folks who try to program the GPS in a moving vehicle who are guilty of this.  I used to be able to adjust the radio or the climate control in my cars, without ever taking my eyes off the road, but now that’s impossible with a touch screen.  They lack the basic tactile feedback that one requires to perform basic operations in the vehicle, without taking your eyes off the road.  I am really surprised there has not been any legislation against these ergonomic decisions on the part of auto makers, not only from our own government, but from some of the more progressively safety conscious (ahem... Germany).


The driving force is cost. 
PLC's and HMI's have gotten super cheap.  Touch screens are also getting cheaper every day.  This tech isn't going anywhere. 
One of my customers is a huge supplier to GM, Chrysler, and a few German companies.  The push is for more screens and less knobs. 
The buttons aren't coming back but the interface may change.  You might find yourself talking to the car to adjust temperature and such.

It almost doesn't even matter anymore what works better....people's perception is that more screens = better tech.  That's what they buy.  

I bought a 2015 Infiniti Q40 because I loved the engine and powertrain.  The inside tech is very 2008'ish..but I don't car.  It's not what "I" look for in a car.


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## BrotherBart (Aug 2, 2018)

Alexa, do a like on sportbikerider78's post.


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## bholler (Aug 2, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> Please define what aid you are talking about.  All of the studies I have seen on this, also include personal income tax rebates and such.
> Keeping in mind, all of these 'aids' are outlined by the fed.  All the states are just following the same rules and the demographics and income levels fall where they may.
> If we did a small flat fed tax with zero rebates, that would make a ton of sense to me.  But lets face it...it can never be 'fair'.  CT and MA get trillions in military spending with defense contractors and it keeps a great deal of their economy floating.  Midwest states get massive amounts of farm subsidies that keeps things going.  The list goes on and on for every state.  The fed wants it this way because then they can control local government by holding big piles of money over their heads when big votes come up.  It is legal bribery.
> 
> We all know how states get into trouble these days.  Too much spending on entitlement programs.  It is always that obvious.


The figures i am referring to came from the federal govt.  I didnt look into everything but yes farm subsidies are included as are all other subsidies.  Defence spending for services and goods is not.  Tax refunds and rebates etc are not covered under aid but are taken off because it means less tax is paid in.


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## fbelec (Aug 3, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> The buttons aren't coming back but the interface may change. You might find yourself talking to the car to adjust temperature and such.



they will never go back on anything. they might lose a sale. it will windup being alexa turn the heat up. i just makes people be i got something that's better than yours. it's people that want this electronic screen control in general. even tho it actually takes longer to get to the right screen and turn the heat up on your side of the front seat. not all but some of the electronics being made are actually making people dumber. for proof ask someone you know if the have the phone number of another friend the answer most of the time is hold on let me get my phone out. remember when we had all those phone numbers in are head.


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## begreen (Aug 3, 2018)

fbelec said:


> they will never go back on anything. they might lose a sale.


Some will go back. Chevy listened to Volt owners closely and fixed a lot of small items that bugged gen 1 owners. One prime complaint was having to take one's eyes off the road to adjust the climate controls. Gen2 Volt has common sense analog controls now for heating/cooling/defrost functionality.

And don't even get me started on how brain dead some car voice command systems are.


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## bholler (Aug 3, 2018)

begreen said:


> Some will go back. Chevy listened to Volt owners closely and fixed a lot of small items that bugged gen 1 owners. One prime complaint was having to take one's eyes off the road to adjust the climate controls. Gen2 Volt has common sense analog controls now for heating/cooling/defrost functionality.
> 
> And don't even get me started on how brain dead some car voice command systems are.


The voice command in my wifes escape is fairly good.  And they have steering wheel controls for the commonly used stuff.  For the most part it is pretty good.


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## bholler (Aug 3, 2018)

The one control that is really agravating is turning off traction control.  You have to go through 3 menues on the insturment panel display to get to it.  Not that tyu ou need to do it often but its stupid


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## sportbikerider78 (Aug 3, 2018)

All the voice commands I use are through my phone not car.  Hold down button and tell google what to do.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 3, 2018)

I think we need a car section in the forum lineup on hearth. Seems to be a popular topic.


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## begreen (Aug 3, 2018)

bholler said:


> The voice command in my wifes escape is fairly good.  And they have steering wheel controls for the commonly used stuff.  For the most part it is pretty good.


My 2013 F150's is ok, not great, but better than the Volt's.


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## begreen (Aug 3, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> All the voice commands I use are through my phone not car.  Hold down button and tell google what to do.


Android connected to the climate controls? That would drive my wife nuts and a potential infraction of the distracted driving law in WA state.


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## Ashful (Aug 3, 2018)

begreen said:


> Android connected to the climate controls? That would drive my wife nuts and a potential infraction of the distracted driving law in WA state.



It’s possible you’re misinterpreting what he’s saying, here.  Both of my cars access the car’s voice commands and Siri thru the same button on the steering wheel controls.  Long press, “Siri, call my wife.”   Short press, “map a course to the marina,” or “play Court of the Crimson King.”

Thanks to an internet connectivity requirement, Siri’s adaptability is better, but she’s also less reliable in rural areas.  The voice commands on my cars are pretty good, but Siri and Alexa have set the bar pretty high, there.  My cars both came with Internet connectivity, but I didn’t bother paying to keep them online when the free trial plans ran out after two years.  The only thing I miss is, “Siri, start my car,” from my desk at work on cold winter evenings, or double checking the doors are locked at airport parking from abroad.


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## begreen (Aug 3, 2018)

That's phone connectivity. We were discussing car control operation and crappy car UI, but that does sound better than our car's built in voice recognition. Maybe our next car will have that feature. Our vehicles are both 2013 which was before Apple and Android car OS was an option.


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## bholler (Aug 3, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> All the voice commands I use are through my phone not car.  Hold down button and tell google what to do.


In her car you can control your phone and most settings in the car by voice.  Just hit the button on the wheel and say you comand.  It will also read texts to you and convert speech to text.


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## JimBear (Aug 4, 2018)

My voice commands generally come from the passenger seat.... I’m cold, I’m hot, Honey I need to use the restroom, your driving too fast, watch that car, turn here, I don’t like that music....,..


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## Jan Pijpelink (Aug 4, 2018)

JimBear said:


> My voice commands generally come from the passenger seat.... I’m cold, I’m hot, Honey I need to use the restroom, your driving too fast, watch that car, turn here, I don’t like that music....,..



We are like this. Her: You should have turned right 2 miles ago! Me: And you're telling me this now?


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 4, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> We all know how states get into trouble these days.  Too much spending on entitlement programs.  It is always that obvious.


Hopefully the Federal Govt wont be tempted to bail out bankrupt states with more borrowed money, otherwise the incentive for states to balance their own budgets will be eliminated and states red ink will explode. As in rewarding bad behavior.


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## bholler (Aug 4, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Hopefully the Federal Govt wont be tempted to bail out bankrupt states with more borrowed money, otherwise the incentive for states to balance their own budgets will be eliminated and states red ink will explode. As in rewarding bad behavior.


So what would your solution be?  Kick them out of the union?  Why not do the same for states that consistently take more than they receive from the federal govt?


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 4, 2018)

States only take what the Govt gives them.Fed Govt is completely in charge of what they give. My solution would be to let them go through bankruptcy or change their behavior before its too late. Bankruptcy has a cleansing effect. People in every a state should to take more responsibility for their own expenses. People are very resilient. They tend to take care of themselves and their families when not handed everything by the Govt.
What happens when the Fed debt bomb explodes? Even so, Mass pension debt wont be solved by any of this.


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## bholler (Aug 4, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> States only take what the Govt gives them.Fed Govt is completely in charge of what they give. My solution would be to let them go through bankruptcy or change their behavior before its too late. Bankruptcy has a cleansing effect. People in every a state should to take more responsibility for their own expenses. People are very resilient. They tend to take care of themselves and their families when not handed everything by the Govt.
> What happens when the Fed debt bomb explodes? Even so, Mass pension debt wont be solved by any of this.


You do realize mass is middle of the road for pension funding right?

I am curious what you think a state bankruptcy would solve?  They are not allowed to default on any of their debts so it would mean nothing.


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## sportbikerider78 (Aug 6, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> States only take what the Govt gives them.Fed Govt is completely in charge of what they give. My solution would be to let them go through bankruptcy or change their behavior before its too late. Bankruptcy has a cleansing effect. People in every a state should to take more responsibility for their own expenses. People are very resilient. They tend to take care of themselves and their families when not handed everything by the Govt.
> What happens when the Fed debt bomb explodes? Even so, Mass pension debt wont be solved by any of this.



The bottom line is that the fed is way too powerful of a force in local government.  They are the puppetmaster.  Every suckhole economics failure of a congress person claims "job creation" when they just got a grant from the government....and the worst part...people believe it.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 6, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> The bottom line is that the fed is way too powerful of a force in local government.


 The Fed Govt wants to keep expanding ,without the funding to do that. They are coercing a generation of people to to depend on Govt for everything. Many of which would otherwise take care of themselves just fine. Just like spoiling yur kids. There used to be a garden in every back yard where i live. No more. I guess the Govt fixed that too.


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## bholler (Aug 6, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> The Fed Govt wants to keep expanding ,without the funding to do that. They are coercing a generation of people to to depend on Govt for everything. Many of which would otherwise take care of themselves just fine. Just like spoiling yur kids. There used to be a garden in every back yard where i live. No more. I guess the Govt fixed that too.


Yes and that is all the govts fault.  You do realize every generation says stuff like this about the next ones.


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## sportbikerider78 (Aug 6, 2018)

bholler said:


> Yes and that is all the govts fault.  You do realize every generation says stuff like this about the next ones.


Facts have changed.  It used to be a negative thing for the population to be on food stamps, no 40M are on food stamps and 21% are on some sort of government assistance.  
You're right.  Every generation blames the last and the next.  But we've never been $20T in debt either.  Our increases in spending can't be sustained and there is no plan to pay it off.


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## bholler (Aug 6, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> Facts have changed.  It used to be a negative thing for the population to be on food stamps, no 40M are on food stamps and 21% are on some sort of government assistance.
> You're right.  Every generation blames the last and the next.  But we've never been $20T in debt either.  Our increases in spending can't be sustained and there is no plan to pay it off.


There have been plans to pay it off.  The budjet was even balanced once with a plan to have the debt played off.  Then the next pres came in cut taxes raised debt and ran our economy into the ground leaving us with the mess we are still digging out of.


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## Ashful (Aug 6, 2018)

bholler said:


> There have been plans to pay it off.  The budjet was even balanced once with a plan to have the debt played off.  Then the next pres came in cut taxes raised debt and ran our economy into the ground leaving us with the mess we are still digging out of.



Last democratic congress to balance the budget:  1969 (!)

Last republican congress to balance the budget:  2001

Most recent string of balanced budgets:  1998, 1999, 2000, 2001.  

The magic ticket seems to be having a republic congress (both house and senate) and democratic president (Clinton), causing just the right amount of constipation.  For what it’s worth, Clinton also had two years with a democratic congress, and they ran enormous deficits both years (to the tune of $200B/year).  Yes, that’s a “B”.

Obama’s deficits were of course the high water mark of all time, being greater than the sum total of 235 years of presidents preceding him, but I’m not going to pretend we can’t top that.


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## sportbikerider78 (Aug 6, 2018)

bholler said:


> There have been plans to pay it off.  The budjet was even balanced once with a plan to have the debt played off.  Then the next pres came in cut taxes raised debt and ran our economy into the ground leaving us with the mess we are still digging out of.


Congress controls spending.  It is not a presidential matter.  Congress can pull the rug at any time.  But they don't even read the bills.

One thing that is completely bi-partisan is to increase the debt spending limit year after year to keep this spending machine going.


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## bholler (Aug 6, 2018)

Ashful said:


> Last democratic congress to balance the budget:  1969 (!)
> 
> Last republican congress to balance the budget:  2001
> 
> ...


I agree completly when they can work together that is the best


Ashful said:


> Last democratic congress to balance the budget:  1969 (!)
> 
> Last republican congress to balance the budget:  2001
> 
> ...


i absolutly agree if they work together republican congress with democratic president works best.  Unfortunately no one will work together at all so nothing happens.  Yes obama added much more but if you sctually look at the percentage of debt added he is behind all bit pne of the last 4 presidents.  One of them topped obamas percentage in one term


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 7, 2018)

bholler said:


> Yes and that is all the govts fault.  You do realize every generation says stuff like this about the next ones.


Its different now. When i was young i didnt see so many 20 and 30 YR olds and their kids living off the Govt. There are no restrictions anymore and no work requirements for most of this stuff. Disability is the new welfare. My sister is a mail carrier and she tells me households receiving disability checks have been exploding in numbers for years ,many of which are very young people. I recently had an employee (35Yrs old) who thinking he may want to try working for a living,gave up his SSI check. He is now back on it ,finding out getting up in the morning and going to work was too much effort. And of course a disability check is the door way to food stamps and all the other goodies. We are ruining a generation with this crap. Or helping them ruin themselves. It will end someday, and it wont be pretty.


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## bholler (Aug 7, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Its different now. When i was young i didnt see so many 20 and 30 YR olds and their kids living off the Govt. There are no restrictions anymore and no work requirements for most of this stuff. Disability is the new welfare. My sister is a mail carrier and she tells me households receiving disability checks have been exploding in numbers for years ,many of which are very young people. I recently had an employee (35Yrs old) who thinking he may want to try working for a living,gave up his SSI check. He is now back on it ,finding out getting up in the morning and going to work was too much effort. And of course a disability check is the door way to food stamps and all the other goodies. We are ruining a generation with this crap. Or helping them ruin themselves. It will end someday, and it wont be pretty.


There always have been and always will be freeloaders.  That is nothing new.  And yes there are restrictions and work requirements.  You do realize the majority on assistance are working many either full time or multiple part time jobs yet they are not payed enough to support them selves.  Yet no blame is placed on the corporations who wont pay living wages.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 7, 2018)

As a property manager im always amazed at the number of people calling who actually work vs who are living off Govt checks. Because i always have to ask about income and sources. Probably 75% of the callers dont work and no one in the family works .I know every town is different but having been in this business for 35 years its been steadily getting worse. Those figures were reversed when i started,and the people not working were mostly because they were retired.


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## bholler (Aug 7, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> As a property manager im always amazed at the number of people calling who actually work vs who are living off Govt checks. Because i always have to ask about income and sources. Probably 75% of the callers dont work and no one in the family works .I know every town is different but having been in this business for 35 years its been steadily getting worse. Those figures were reversed when i started.


And how much of that problem is caused by companies shipping manufacturing jobs over seas?  Our area used to have lots of furniture factories.  Currently we only have one left the rest which for.the most part were profitable were bought by large corporations just for the name and the factories were shut down and production was moved over seas.  That means in the past 12 years our area has lost 9000 manufacturing jobs.  And the story is the same in most manufacturing areas.  So again who is to blame???


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## Ashful (Aug 7, 2018)

bholler said:


> Yet no blame is placed on the corporations who wont pay living wages.


You can’t blame math.  Corporations are autonomous mathematic equations, paying exactly what each employee is worth.  The good news is that we live in an environment where any individual can change their worth, with some effort.


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## bholler (Aug 7, 2018)

Ashful said:


> You can’t blame math.  Corporations are autonomous mathematic equations, paying exactly what each employee is worth.  The good news is that we live in an environment where any individual can change their worth, with some effort.


No not what they are worth.  They pay the min they can get away with paying.  Worth has nothing at all to do with it.


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## bholler (Aug 7, 2018)

And yes people can change their worth.  But that only works when there are higher level jobs available.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 7, 2018)

Which underscores how important trade issues are to jobs fleeing the country.Cant blame the corporations ,its the govt that makes the rules ,corporations just adjust to them. You can also make your own job in places where few good jobs exist. Theres always a need to fill. Its what i had to do if i wanted to stay here.


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## begreen (Aug 7, 2018)

Some corporations value their employees and pay them well to retain them. Other corps treat their employees like a cheap commodity. For certain that math doesn't work for chief officers pay. CEOs are now often making 10-20 times what their position made 30 yrs ago and sometimes doing no more or less work. 

Offshoring jobs has been the biggest issue for labor in this country. The textile industry is a prime example. But the issue is not just corporate globalism. There has also been a systematic dismantling and takeover of most consumer industries by China. Since just the 1990s they have taken over the furniture, electronics, steel industries etc.. The big decline started after they joined the WTO in 2001. We've lost about 5 million manufacturing jobs since then. And then there is automation...  This all equates to a lot less jobs for Americans.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 7, 2018)

They used to say for every $1 Billion of trade deficit 20000 jobs are lost or transferered to the countries on the surplus side. Given the huge trade deficits we have thats a lot of jobs.


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## bholler (Aug 7, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Which underscores how important trade issues are to jobs fleeing the country.Cant blame the corporations ,its the govt that makes the rules ,corporations just adjust to them. You can also make your own job in places where few good jobs exist. Theres always a need to fill. Its what i had to do if i wanted to stay here.


Really you think the corporations who fund the politicians have no input on the rules. Really?  And yes you can make your own job but if the people in your area have no money to pay you for you service or product what good does that job do


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 7, 2018)

bholler said:


> Really you think the corporations who fund the politicians have no input on the rules. do


Sure they do. Wealthy donors fund most politicians. The job give away in the last 30 years made a lot more wealthy donors. Whats surprising is the last 4 or 5 presidents barely mentioned it.  They must have been  protecting their wealthy donors!


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## bholler (Aug 7, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Sure they do. Wealthy donors fund most politicians. The job give away in the last 30 years made a lot more wealthy donors. Whats surprising is the last 4 or 5 presidents barely mentioned it.  They must have been  protecting their wealthy donors!


I agree completly and citizens united made it worse.  Corporations themselves can now make the contributions.


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## Doug MacIVER (Aug 7, 2018)

bholler said:


> Really you think the corporations who fund the politicians have no input on the rules. Really?  And yes you can make your own job but if the people in your area have no money to pay you for you service or product what good does that job do


been involved with shoes for 45 of my 69 years. Watched an industry die over that time. why, tariff reductions. back in "50-80's the US protected ours and Europe and Far East fought for theirs. We stopped and the Brands went with the tariff less mindset. No matter whether you made the low of low or the best of best. Big winner , the Brand. Consumers paid much the same on both low & high end. Brand went to the bank. Today all that is left are the $500-1000.00 dress guys, high end $300.00+ work, and the almighty cowboy boot guys. Cowboys survived due to fierce loyalty of brand and USA Made.
not meant to go into today's tariff talk. just a fact, as I was involved with lobbying to keep full free and fair trade in those days. We had Kennedy and Kerry's ears because of $$$ and votes.

I would guess alot of the great folks that worked in my factory back then, the high school dropout,HS grads, the underachievers, would today be waiting table or flipping hamburgers. where as our factory was a chance to move on to one of the big guys because there used to be a demand for a leather cutter you could train to cut uppers. Hell the folks that worked in our place could only max at $20-30k/, full med, 2wks after 1 yr, 10Hol., and a turkey?
Corps do have a lot to say and DO.

just an addendum, today in the US there is really only one major heel manufacturer left. Montello
Heel in Brockton. If you wanted to buy his product you can't. If your a customer today, you may not be tomorrow. Why? With the shoes went the tanneries! Montello now subject to 90% foreign supply of sole leather offal  

Got to add again. Twin Leather, in same building as Monello , different company.. Twin mfgs. leather washers from the heel offal. Leather water washers are most often used in muni h2o depts. Not sure if he's given up? look up his web site?


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## begreen (Aug 7, 2018)

We have become a service economy.
"In 1990, the manufacturing industry employed more workers than any other sector in 36 states. Today, the picture is totally different: Manufacturing is the dominant industry in only seven states."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...ce-economy-in-one-gif/?utm_term=.af0147ca9b1a


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 7, 2018)

We cant survive selling each other foreign made goods forever. We have to make as many things as we can here. The people that told us "those job s aint coming back " did a disservice to us. Lots of those jobs can and will come back with a little effort.  Im doing my part by drinking as much LOCAL brewed beer as possible.


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## Doug MacIVER (Aug 7, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> We cant survive selling each other foreign made goods forever. We have to make as many things as we can here. The people that told us "those job s aint coming back " did a disservice to us. Lots of those jobs can and will come back with a little effort.  Im doing my part by drinking as much LOCAL brewed beer as possible.


 We  just bought some machinery used for Cabin Brand  and as a contract supplier to KIWI. The folks we bought machines from in China next week. Can only hope the work stays. Job moved from Missouri to Mass. Mo min. wage $7.85/ Ma $11.00 and rising! Didn't like new price?


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## Ashful (Aug 7, 2018)

bholler said:


> No not what they are worth.  They pay the min they can get away with paying.


Then that's what they're worth, for that skill, in that economy, at that time, in that place.  Change any one factor, and the equation changes.  You may not have control over the economy or the time, but you have complete control over the skill and place.

You sound like the guy complaining that his car didn't fetch enough at auction.  What it fetched is the very definition of what it was worth, at that point in time, at that location.


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## begreen (Aug 7, 2018)

What someone is worth and the least you can get away paying that person are not the same thing. There are many factors in that can imbalance that equation at least on the worker's side. The other side of the equation can include outrageous compensations for officers, R&D, marketing, etc..


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## Doug MacIVER (Aug 7, 2018)

begreen said:


> What someone is worth and the least you can get away paying that person are not the same thing. There are many factors in that can imbalance that equation at least on the worker's side. The other side of the equation can include outrageous compensations for officers, R&D, marketing, etc..


we are getting borderline here, answer? legislate it or market it? the market has worked in history. the other?


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## Ashful (Aug 7, 2018)

begreen said:


> What someone is worth and the least you can get away paying that person are not the same thing. There are many factors in that can imbalance that equation at least on the worker's side. The other side of the equation can include outrageous compensations for officers, R&D, marketing, etc..



“Outrageous” is an opinion, and corporations don’t have “good” or “bad” personality traits.


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## bholler (Aug 7, 2018)

Ashful said:


> “Outrageous” is an opinion, and corporations don’t have “good” or “bad” personality traits.


Well they are now legally individuals that have a right to express their political opinions so why would they not have personality traits?

And no what you can get away with paying someone is not what they are worth.  If you dont see the difference you clearly have never been stuck in a position where you were clearly underpaid.


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## begreen (Aug 7, 2018)

Corporations definitely have personality traits. Compare the attitude of Tesla or Google vs Wells Fargo or Turing Pharmaceuticals.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 7, 2018)

Thats what i like about being self employed ,Ill decide what im worth. OR the market place will.


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## bholler (Aug 7, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Thats what i like about being self employed ,Ill decide what im worth. OR the market place will.


Yes that is true but being self employed there are plenty of times especially when you are starting out you dont get paid anywhere near what you are worth


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## bholler (Aug 7, 2018)

There were plenty of times starting out in my old cabinetry company where my guys were bringing home way more than me.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 7, 2018)

bholler said:


> Yes that is true but being self employed there are plenty of times especially when you are starting out you dont get paid anywhere near what you are worth


Starting out it was koolaid and ritz crackers for a few years. but i also took 3 to 4 months off to lounge  in the south pacific every other winter so im "cryin with a ham under my arm" as they say.  Been self employed since 1988. Sometime my boss in an ass 'opps thats me!


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 7, 2018)

bholler said:


> There were plenty of times starting out in my old cabinetry company where my guys were bringing home way more than me.


Yea somtimes i can say id make more working at McDonalds for the hours i put in, but this way my only boss is the wife and i can live with that.


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## Ashful (Aug 7, 2018)

bholler said:


> And no what you can get away with paying someone is not what they are worth.  If you dont see the difference you clearly have never been stuck in a position where you were clearly underpaid.


I have indeed been underpaid, but I was never "stuck" there.  I chose to remain, for circumstantial reasons, eg. trading geographical convenience for better wages.



begreen said:


> Corporations definitely have personality traits. Compare the attitude of Tesla or Google vs Wells Fargo or Turing Pharmaceuticals.


You apply your feelings to them, based on their alignment (or lack thereof) with your personal values.  Corporations are autonomous machines, with a single goal, making money.  If they are in a market with competitive job opportunities for top talent (Tesla or Google), then they must offer more attractive compensation, whether that be in salary or other benefits.  If they rely on such positive PR to drive their revenue, then they pay that price, for the sake of increasing profit.  You take that to be a "personality trait," but if they could be more successful by paying less and find that revenue or profit is unrelated to how well they treat their employees, don't believe they'd not go that route.

I will grant you the rare sole-proprietorship, with an uncommonly generous owner, who feels strong loyalty to his employees.  But of course, bholler was talking about large (read, generally public) corporations, of substantial size to have politicians (read lobbyists) in their back pocket, in his post that started this tangent.  That's not generally the sole proprietorship of a generous benefactor.



Seasoned Oak said:


> Thats what i like about being self employed ,Ill decide what im worth. OR the market place will.


Self-employment is the only legal way to make less than minimum wage.


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## sportbikerider78 (Aug 9, 2018)

bholler said:


> No not what they are worth.  They pay the min they can get away with paying.  Worth has nothing at all to do with it.


Well, what exactly is someone worth that graduates HS, hasn't had a job, and has zero skills?
How about a 45 yr old that has bounced from job to job his entire life and still has zero skills?

I'd argue that this is an amazing country where 2 guys out of HS with zero skills can share a decent apartment, each have a car, have health care, make $12.50 an hr, and have plenty of food. 
Seriously, where else can you do that? 
Few of us would want that life, but with almost no skills you can survive and live in relative comfort.

God bless America


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## bholler (Aug 9, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> Well, what exactly is someone worth that graduates HS, hasn't had a job, and has zero skills?
> How about a 45 yr old that has bounced from job to job his entire life and still has zero skills?
> 
> I'd argue that this is an amazing country where 2 guys out of HS with zero skills can share a decent apartment, each have a car, have health care, make $12.50 an hr, and have plenty of food.
> ...


You do realize 12.50 is a fairly high paying job in many areas right?  And many people are trying to support a family with that.  The people sharing an apartment are getting minimum.


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## bholler (Aug 9, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> Well, what exactly is someone worth that graduates HS, hasn't had a job, and has zero skills?
> How about a 45 yr old that has bounced from job to job his entire life and still has zero skills?
> 
> I'd argue that this is an amazing country where 2 guys out of HS with zero skills can share a decent apartment, each have a car, have health care, make $12.50 an hr, and have plenty of food.
> ...


And i beleive if someone comes to work every day and does their job they should be paid a living wage.  Which means they should not be working full time and still need welfare to make it


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 9, 2018)

bholler said:


> And i beleive if someone comes to work every day and does their job they should be paid a living wage.  Which means they should not be working full time and still need welfare to make it


That fact that many people with no marketable skills are trying to support a family on minimum wage is not the fault or the responsibility of their employer.(Or of the taxpayers for that matter). It begs the question why did they start a family knowing they cant support one with the skills they have(or lack of skills). This is further encouraged by the fact that the govt jumps in to make up the difference,leaves no incentive to change.  People are not paid according to their financial obligations. The 1 constant here is "Anything subsidized you get more of" .


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 9, 2018)

bholler said:


> And i beleive if someone comes to work every day and does their job they should be paid a living wage.  Which means they should not be working full time and still need welfare to make it


Agreed ,but they most likely are making enough to support themselves ,and what they are earning IS a living wage for 1 person. The reason they may need welfare is they are trying to support more people then their skill set allows.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 9, 2018)

Ashful said:


> Self-employment is the only legal way to make less than minimum wage.


Absolutely, and i have many times made less than minimum wage. At times the folks at McDonalds are making far more than i.   Whats your wage when you work for weeks,months or years on a project the never really gets finished. Zero and if you add in expenses its way below Zero. To top it off self employed are NOT eligible for Unemployment Compensation. Fortunately being self employed one develops a knack for living on surprisingly little income at times. When i do make decent amount i feel "rich" .


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## bholler (Aug 9, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Agreed ,but they most likely are making enough to support themselves ,and what they are earning IS a living wage for 1 person. The reason they may need welfare is they are trying to support more people then their skill set allows.


I agree the problem is in areas like ours the vast majority of available lower level jobs dont pay enough to support a family.


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## begreen (Aug 9, 2018)

bholler said:


> You do realize 12.50 is a fairly high paying job in many areas right?  And many people are trying to support a family with that.  The people sharing an apartment are getting minimum.


That's a very low wage locally. House cleaners, gardeners, entry level carpenters make more here. For point of reference, I haven't made $12.50 an hour since around 1975. I wasn't a specialist and didn't have a college degree back then. Actually went back to school and got my college degree in 1979.


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## sportbikerider78 (Aug 9, 2018)

bholler said:


> You do realize 12.50 is a fairly high paying job in many areas right?  And many people are trying to support a family with that.  The people sharing an apartment are getting minimum.


And wages are adjusted for area.  

If you can pass a drug test, and show up, you can get a job for $10-13 immediately in this area.  Certainly not an expensive area.


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## sportbikerider78 (Aug 9, 2018)

bholler said:


> I agree the problem is in areas like ours the vast majority of available lower level jobs dont pay enough to support a family.


No the problem is people who start at a low wage, aren't motivated to develop a better skill set to make a higher wage because of govt handouts.  If they felt the 'pinch' they would do it and stop taking drugs and show up on time. 

I have lived the life of a manufacturing operations manager for 10+ years and been in factories for 20+ years.  I have seen it all up and down the east coast.  It is the same issues everywhere.

I can't count the number of times employees have told me they don't want to work overtime (x1.5pay) because they will then not be eligible for their handouts.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 9, 2018)

bholler said:


> I agree the problem is in areas like ours the vast majority of available lower level jobs dont pay enough to support a family.


And as longs the Govt is willing to subsidize low skilled incomes, thats just one more incentive NOT to increase ones skills or education or even work hours. Or try to achieve more. Why bother when someone will step in and turn $10Hr into $30 with no extra effort at all.


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## bholler (Aug 9, 2018)

Untill a recent job change which now comes with a 1 hour commute my wife with a bachelors degree in accounting was making 12.50 as a maintenance dispatcher for a local grocery store chain.  She was one of the highest paid people in the administrative pool.  Starting wages for floor workers in the few factory jobs left is around 11 with a top wage for floor workers of 18.  And there is tons of competition for those few jobs.


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## bholler (Aug 9, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> No the problem is people who start at a low wage, aren't motivated to develop a better skill set to make a higher wage because of govt handouts.  If they felt the 'pinch' they would do it and stop taking drugs and show up on time.
> 
> I have lived the life of a manufacturing operations manager for 10+ years and been in factories for 20+ years.  I have seen it all up and down the east coast.  It is the same issues everywhere.
> 
> I can't count the number of times employees have told me they don't want to work overtime (x1.5pay) because they will then not be eligible for their handouts.


In many areas bettering your skills doesnt make a bit of difference you still wont get paid well.  And no people are not willing to loose their benifits for 6 months for a week of overtime.  That week of overtime wont pay the bills for that 6 months.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 9, 2018)

bholler said:


> Untill a recent job change which now comes with a 1 hour commute my wife with a bachelors degree in accounting was making 12.50 as a maintenance dispatcher for a local grocery store chain.  .


She may do better doing taxes. Which would be closer to her education . My wife has a 4yr college degree and is not in the work force at all anymore. Never worked a day with her business degree when she was. Iv been the sole family breadwinner for the last 15 yrs.  High school diploma only.


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## bholler (Aug 9, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> She may do better doing taxes. Which would be closer to her education . My wife has a 4yr college degree and is not in the work force at all anymore. Never worked a day with her business degree when she was. Iv been the sole family breadwinner for the last 15 yrs.  High school diploma only.


She was working there for the benifits.  I make plenty to pay the bills on my own but insurance costs allot.


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## bholler (Aug 9, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> She may do better doing taxes. Which would be closer to her education . My wife has a 4yr college degree and is not in the work force at all anymore. Never worked a day with her business degree when she was. Iv been the sole family breadwinner for the last 15 yrs.  High school diploma only.


And she does allot better now driving to harrisburg


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 9, 2018)

bholler said:


> She was working there for the benifits.  I make plenty to pay the bills on my own but insurance costs allot.


Common practice these days. Benefits mean a lot. Sometimes just for the Health Insurance alone.


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## begreen (Aug 9, 2018)

bholler said:


> Untill a recent job change which now comes with a 1 hour commute my wife with a bachelors degree in accounting was making 12.50 as a maintenance dispatcher for a local grocery store chain.  She was one of the highest paid people in the administrative pool.  Starting wages for floor workers in the few factory jobs left is around 11 with a top wage for floor workers of 18.  And there is tons of competition for those few jobs.


This would have been a normal conversation around 1988, but fact that this is the same wage 30 years later is astounding. Wages have not kept up the price of basics like education, health care, food, housing, transportation. The price of these basics has exploded. Poor people are worse off today than they ever have been. If they were paid a decent wage they wouldn't qualify for assistance and most would gladly work for overtime.


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## bholler (Aug 9, 2018)

begreen said:


> This would have been a normal conversation around 1988, but fact that this is the same wage 30 years later is astounding. Wages have not kept up the price of basics like education, health care, food, housing, transportation. Poor people are worse off today than they ever have been. If they were paid a decent wage they wouldn't qualify for assistance and would gladly work for overtime.


That is my point exactly


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## begreen (Aug 9, 2018)

The premise of this article is that America has a new kind of poverty that none of us have experienced before.
https://eand.co/why-america-is-the-worlds-first-poor-rich-country-17f5a80e444a

I will observe one local phenomenon. Seattle voted to increase the minimum wage to $15. There were all sorts of dire predictions about this change. Businesses would move out, restaurants would close, low level jobs would disappear, etc.. Fact is that it didn't happen. The region's economy is booming. Restaurants are opening at a dizzying pace and there is a robust job scene. Restaurant meal costs have gone up a dollar or two over the past couple years, but folks seem ok with that as long as the food is good.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 9, 2018)

I helps if you have ever started and run a business ,(or tried to start one) to see both sides of this equation. Its incredibly expensive. Big jumps in minimum wage will put many people out of business and out of work. Iv given up entirely paying employees trying to expand.  Im almost retired and its just me and my son from here on out.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 9, 2018)

begreen said:


> I will observe one local phenomenon. Seattle voted to increase the minimum wage to $15. There were all sorts of dire predictions about this change. .


That wont work here. A teachers starting salary is about $15Hr  A man enlisting in the army is $9 Hr. Start paying double Min wage for unskilled work here and of course every one will want double their existing wage.  Everything would have to double to compensate. Would anyone really be better off?


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## begreen (Aug 9, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> That wont work here. A teachers starting salary is about $15Hr  A man enlisting in the army is $9 Hr. Start paying double Min wage for unskilled work here and of course every one will want double their existing wage.  Everything would have to double to compensate. Would anyone really be better off?


Unbelievable that a teacher starts out at that low wage. They are so important. Army comparison not useful considering the starting wage includes training, food, shelter, medical.


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## bholler (Aug 9, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> That wont work here. A teachers starting salary is about $15Hr  A man enlisting in the army is $9 Hr. Start paying double Min wage for unskilled work here and of course every one will want double their existing wage.  Everything would have to double to compensate. Would anyone really be better off?


That is the attitude that keeps things from changing and has gotten us to this point.  I think min should be around 12.  And it will take a few steps to get there but we have to start somewhere.


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## bholler (Aug 9, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I helps if you have ever started and run a business ,(or tried to start one) to see both sides of this equation. Its incredibly expensive. Big jumps in minimum wage will put many people out of business and out of work. Iv given up entirely paying employees trying to expand.  Im almost retired and its just me and my son from here on out.


So you dont want an increase in min wage you would rather we continue to subsidize companies who choose to pay to little for their employees to live on by giving those employees welfare?


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 9, 2018)

bholler said:


> So you dont want an increase in min wage you would rather we continue to subsidize companies who choose to pay to little for their employees to live on by giving those employees welfare?


The companies around here left long ago, Mines and textile industries.  Were doing worse the subsidizing them, we left china and asia take them. I dont think iv ever spoken in favor of more welfare. Welfare programs passed out minimum wage years ago.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 9, 2018)

bholler said:


> That is the attitude that keeps things from changing and has gotten us to this point.  I think min should be around 12.  And it will take a few steps to get there but we have to start somewhere.


Every area is different ,not about attitude. No industry here to support the same wage as Seattle. The 2 largest employers around here are probably the prison and wal-mart. For 20'000 people. If theres enough industry to support it minimum wage goes up on its own. Gradual increases can be absorbed but not doubling overnight like so many were marching in the streets for.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 9, 2018)

begreen said:


> Unbelievable that a teacher starts out at that low wage. They are so important. Army comparison not useful considering the starting wage includes training, food, shelter, medical.


In many cases you can compare it to army.Minimum wage earners frequently live at home with their parents ,where those same things are provided already up until 26 yrs old. At least that was before people started expecting to raise a family on minimum wage ,and then blaming their employer when they have a hard time.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 9, 2018)

We are getting a medical Marijuana Grow Facility soon so that should jump start the place.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 9, 2018)

begreen said:


> Unbelievable that a teacher starts out at that low wage. They are so important. Army comparison not useful considering the starting wage includes training, food, shelter, medical.


Starting teacher salary was around 30K which is roughly $15Hr. It bumped up a bit recently with the new contract but gives a good indication of the wage base locally.


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## bholler (Aug 9, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> The companies around here left long ago, Mines and textile industries.  Were doing worse the subsidizing them, we left china and asia take them. I dont think iv ever spoken in favor of more welfare. Welfare programs passed out minimum wage years ago.


No but by not supporting increasing min wage to a working wage you are supporting welfare to subsidise those workers.


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## Ashful (Aug 9, 2018)

begreen said:


> Unbelievable that a teacher starts out at that low wage. They are so important. Army comparison not useful considering the starting wage includes training, food, shelter, medical.


Scale that by 1.33, for summers they can spend at the beach or take another job, plus vacation time, plus the pension that no one in private industry will ever receive, plus the protection of tenure, and a very strong union.

Teaching is one of the best gigs around, for folks not ambitious enough to pursue medicine, engineering, or law.


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## bholler (Aug 9, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Every area is different ,not about attitude. No industry here to support the same wage as Seattle. The 2 largest employers around here are probably the prison and wal-mart. For 20'000 people. If theres enough industry to support it minimum wage goes up on its own. Gradual increases can be absorbed but not doubling overnight like so many were marching in the streets for.


So you say starting wage in your area is double min wage.  So does that mean wslmart is starting at 14.50 by you???  And claiming min wage goes up on its own simply is not supported by fact


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## bholler (Aug 9, 2018)

Ashful said:


> Scale that by 1.33, for summers they can spend at the beach or take another job, plus vacation time, plus the pension that no one in private industry will ever receive, plus the protection of tenure, and a very strong union.
> 
> Teaching is one of the best gigs around, for folks not ambitious enough to pursue medicine, engineering, or law.


That depends entirely upin where you are.  And yes for the most part they have off summers.  But they put in lots of hours during the school year.  Much more than most others


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## sportbikerider78 (Aug 9, 2018)

bholler said:


> Untill a recent job change which now comes with a 1 hour commute my wife with a bachelors degree in accounting was making 12.50 as a maintenance dispatcher for a local grocery store chain.  She was one of the highest paid people in the administrative pool.  Starting wages for floor workers in the few factory jobs left is around 11 with a top wage for floor workers of 18.  And there is tons of competition for those few jobs.


Then her skill set does not match the needs of the area.  
I have done multiple moves to make sure my skill set is in high demand.  I have also refused to move to areas where there was only a few good places to work for my skill set...for insurance in case the job in question ever ended.


----------



## bholler (Aug 9, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> Then her skill set does not match the needs of the area.
> I have done multiple moves to make sure my skill set is in high demand.  I have also refused to move to areas where there was only a few good places to work for my skill set...for insurance in case the job in question ever ended.


Or the company could compensate their empolyees more instead of the owners buying bentleys and private jets.  Yes multiples on both of those items.  I have a problem with company and executive profits increasing consistently while employees see benifits cut and no increases in wages.  It is simply greed at the top and a complete lack of concern for their employees.


----------



## begreen (Aug 9, 2018)

Ashful said:


> Scale that by 1.33, for summers they can spend at the beach or take another job, plus vacation time, plus the pension that no one in private industry will ever receive, plus the protection of tenure, and a very strong union.
> 
> Teaching is one of the best gigs around, for folks not ambitious enough to pursue medicine, engineering, or law.


Teachers don't get the whole summer off or have a lot of protection locally. Many get July off, but are working on curricula and class prep in August. They also put in some long hours, both in school and at home. Locally, it took a state initiative and a court order to finally get them a pay raise. When one considers the importance of good teachers and their importance in preparing the next generation for the future of the country, their work is essential. And many have masters or even doctorates and probably are among the poorer paid profession considering the amount of education they have. If you have the misfortune of being in a state where teachers are under attack by the legislature then the situation gets worse. Ask a teacher in NC about that.


Ashful said:


> Teaching is one of the best gigs around, for folks not ambitious enough to pursue medicine, engineering, or law.


That's a very condescending statement and quite untrue. It takes good, intelligent and special people that put the advocation of teaching above personal gains, especially these days when they not only have to deal with poorly raised kids, but also their hyper-entitled parents. It's a tough profession, walk a mile.


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## bholler (Aug 9, 2018)

Ashful said:


> Scale that by 1.33, for summers they can spend at the beach or take another job, plus vacation time, plus the pension that no one in private industry will ever receive, plus the protection of tenure, and a very strong union.
> 
> Teaching is one of the best gigs around, for folks not ambitious enough to pursue medicine, engineering, or law.


I agree that statement is completly out of line.  It has nothing at all to do with ambition.


----------



## sportbikerider78 (Aug 9, 2018)

begreen said:


> This would have been a normal conversation around 1988, but fact that this is the same wage 30 years later is astounding. Wages have not kept up the price of basics like education, health care, food, housing, transportation. The price of these basics has exploded. Poor people are worse off today than they ever have been. If they were paid a decent wage they wouldn't qualify for assistance and most would gladly work for overtime.



A great deal of what you are saying is very true.  Additionally, our costs are up because our money doesn't have the same value.  

Perhaps poor people are worse off w/o handouts but with them, they really aren't poor.  

My only point in this is that w/o handouts people work harder to get were they need to go.  That's my only point.  I'll remove my high horse now.


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## begreen (Aug 9, 2018)

bholler said:


> I agree that statement is completly out of line.  It has nothing at all to do with ambition.


The math is wrong any way. Our teachers are working up through late June and back prepping by mid-August. Some teachers I know are never off the job. They are always gathering interesting class material, training, volunteering.


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## sportbikerider78 (Aug 9, 2018)

bholler said:


> Or the company could compensate their empolyees more instead of the owners buying bentleys and private jets.  Yes multiples on both of those items.  I have a problem with company and executive profits increasing consistently while employees see benifits cut and no increases in wages.  It is simply greed at the top and a complete lack of concern for their employees.



It is greed for those owners to have Bentleys but not greed for you to want more money?

Interesting perspective.  I deserve what they have even though I have not worked for it.

As we have had this conversation in another thread....I have a very rich owner of a private company and he treats us very well.  If this other company sucks, leave.  And/Or...get another skill set that pays more.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Aug 9, 2018)

bholler said:


> So you say starting wage in your area is double min wage.  So does that mean wslmart is starting at 14.50 by you???  And claiming min wage goes up on its own simply is not supported by fact


Where did i say min wage is double? I said people are marching demanding double.  Wal mart pays above min wage here about 10 to start.. The prison pays a lot more. So min wage means nothing at the 2 largest employers. Those paying minimum are mostly retail store and they are going under left and right so not a lot of Bentlys and jets being purchased by them .


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 9, 2018)

bholler said:


> No but by not supporting increasing min wage to a working wage you are supporting welfare to subsidise those workers.


I didnt say i dont support it, i said i dont support doubling it overnight,or trying to match it because places like Seattle are doing it,very different.  Im saying business that are paying min that are barely staying afloat (and there are many) Cannot pay more or many would. Tying it to inflation would make sense.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Aug 9, 2018)

bholler said:


> Or the company could compensate their empolyees more instead of the owners buying bentleys and private jets. .


Most likely a very small % of business are that cash rich. Certainly not in Central Pa except the Non profit Geisinger Hospital network. I have their overpriced HC insurance and it takes 7 months to get an appointment to have a neurology test done, 7 months. THey must be paying 1 doctor to do the whole state,yet they are buying up every medical facility in a 200 mile radius.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 9, 2018)

Ashful said:


> Teaching is one of the best gigs around, for folks not ambitious enough to pursue medicine, engineering, or law.


 Its certainly one of the best gigs around here. My daughter is working full time while persuing a teaching degree. Not much else around other than nursing that pays well.and teaching doesnt involve collecting bodily fluids.


----------



## begreen (Aug 9, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Its certainly one of the best gigs around here. My daughter is working full time while persuing a teaching degree. Not much else around other than nursing that pays well.and teaching doesnt involve collecting bodily fluids.


That make sense in a depressed area. Has it ever been a booming area? Down where my sister lives in rural NC it's the police jobs that are sought after for similar reasons.


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## bholler (Aug 9, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> It is greed for those owners to have Bentleys but not greed for you to want more money?
> 
> Interesting perspective.  I deserve what they have even though I have not worked for it.
> 
> As we have had this conversation in another thread....I have a very rich owner of a private company and he treats us very well.  If this other company sucks, leave.  And/Or...get another skill set that pays more.


No the employees like my wife dont want bentleys not even one of them.  But they do want their pay to go up to keep pace with cost of living.  I dont find that to be greed.


----------



## bholler (Aug 9, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I didnt say i dont support it, i said i dont support doubling it overnight,or trying to match it because places like Seattle are doing it,very different.  Im saying business that are paying min that are barely staying afloat (and there are many) Cannot pay more or many would. Tying it to inflation would make sense.


I dont support doubling it over night either.  But does that mean we shouldnt increase it at all?


----------



## Ashful (Aug 9, 2018)

bholler said:


> That depends entirely upin where you are.  And yes for the most part they have off summers.  But they put in lots of hours during the school year.  Much more than most others


It's neither here nor there, and I don't mean to disparage anyone's choices in life, teaching is an honorable profession.  But, I have several friends who became teachers, and trust me... they're not working exceptionally hard.  A few of the more ambitious have picked up summer work, which adds to their income, one is a bartender and the other runs a small painting company.  More of them spend their summers taking their kids to amusement parks and the Jersey shore, I'm envious of that.

But most ambitious professionals put in lots of hours during the school year... AND the summer.  Just one unremarkable example:  yesterday I was at work by 7:15am and left at 5pm, did another hour of work at home before dinner, and then another hour late night before bed.  Subtracting an hour to run some errands and grab a lunch on the go, that's an 10.5 to 11 hour day.  This is not uncommon for many professions, my wife does the same for her company, but unlike teachers... we're doing it 49-50 weeks per year.


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## bholler (Aug 9, 2018)

Ashful said:


> It's neither here nor there, and I don't mean to disparage anyone's choices in life, teaching is an honorable profession.  But, I have several friends who became teachers, and trust me... they're not working exceptionally hard.  A few of the more ambitious have picked up summer work, which adds to their income, one is a bartender and the other runs a small painting company.  More of them spend their summers taking their kids to amusement parks and the Jersey shore, I'm envious of that.
> 
> But most ambitious professionals put in lots of hours during the school year... AND the summer.  Just one unremarkable example:  yesterday I was at work by 7:15am and left at 5pm, did another hour of work at home before dinner, and then another hour late night before bed.  Subtracting an hour to run some errands and grab a lunch on the go, that's an 10.5 to 11 hour day.  This is not uncommon for many professions, my wife does the same for her company, but unlike teachers... we're doing it 49-50 weeks per year.


For most teachers i know working 10.5 to 11 hours in a day would be a fairly short day.  If your friends choose to not work hard that is on them.  But there are people in every field who do the minimum required and dont work hard.


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## Ashful (Aug 9, 2018)

bholler said:


> And i beleive if someone comes to work every day and does their job they should be paid a living wage.  Which means they should not be working full time and still need welfare to make it



One of my best friends is so far left that he complains the Democratic Party is too right.  We debate this very subject, quite frequently.

Me:  Anyone can make their own success, in this country.
Him:  But not everyone.
Me:  Nor should everyone, but any one of those people can.
Him:  What good is that?

It’s just a difference of principles, upon which we will never agree.


----------



## bholler (Aug 9, 2018)

Ashful said:


> One of my best friends is so far left that he complains the Democratic Party is too right.  We debate this very subject, quite frequently.
> 
> Me:  Anyone can make their own success, in this country.
> Him:  But not everyone.
> ...


I am not saying every one should be rich.  But if someone goes to work everyday and does their job they should be able to live off what they make.  And sadly for many that isnt the case.  

I do totally agree we give to much aid to freely with to few checks.  This allows for to many to take advantage.  But there are also lots of companies that take advantage of the system as well.  Those on the right never seem to complain about that.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Aug 9, 2018)

bholler said:


> I dont support doubling it over night either.  But does that mean we shouldnt increase it at all?


Reread the post of mine you just quoted #128,I said tying it to inflation would make sense. Does that sound like "we shouldnt increase it at all"


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 9, 2018)

begreen said:


> That make sense in a depressed area. Has it ever been a booming area? Down where my sister lives in rural NC it's the police jobs that are sought after for similar reasons.


It was booming with coal mines and textile mills. Now neither exist. And yes  Police jobs pay very well 60 -70 k plus great benefits . One of the highest paying jobs around here. And in big demand as the drug epidemic rolls across america.


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## sportbikerider78 (Aug 10, 2018)

bholler said:


> I am not saying every one should be rich.  But if someone goes to work everyday and does their job they should be able to live off what they make.  And sadly for many that isnt the case.
> 
> I do totally agree we give to much aid to freely with to few checks.  This allows for to many to take advantage.  But there are also lots of companies that take advantage of the system as well.  Those on the right never seem to complain about that.



Mostly, the market and supply/demand dictates what we make.  Is it perfect?  Nope. But it most cases we can always make ourselves better to make more money.

The alternative is what?....A government/set of laws and system that forces companies to pay a certain person this and another person that?

I would suggest there are WAY more flaws in the alternative then what we have now.


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## bholler (Aug 10, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> Mostly, the market and supply/demand dictates what we make.  Is it perfect?  Nope. But it most cases we can always make ourselves better to make more money.
> 
> The alternative is what?....A government/set of laws and system that forces companies to pay a certain person this and another person that?
> 
> I would suggest there are WAY more flaws in the alternative then what we have now.


If you look at the statistics it hasnt been working for a long time.  Wages havnt been keeping up with inflation at all.


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## sportbikerider78 (Aug 10, 2018)

bholler said:


> If you look at the statistics it hasnt been working for a long time.  Wages havnt been keeping up with inflation at all.


The market isn't controlling inflation.  The Federal reserve prints money with wreckless abandon and QE destroys the value of our money.

The market can't be blamed for something the market doesn't control.


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## bholler (Aug 10, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> The market isn't controlling inflation.  The Federal reserve prints money with wreckless abandon and QE destroys the value of our money.
> 
> The market can't be blamed for something the market doesn't control.


Yes but the fed has been holding down inflation.  That would help the problem.  But it hasnt.


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## Doug MacIVER (Aug 10, 2018)

bholler said:


> If you look at the statistics it hasnt been working for a long time.  Wages havnt been keeping up with inflation at all.


I would suggest that is what happens when you have a one sided economy. classic definition of an economy, the production and trade of goods and services> on the service side you can only trade $$$$$ which thins out over time.. The production side has changed dramatically from hard goods to intellectual . just not the mix enjoyed by some other countries today.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 10, 2018)

You cant drain a country of jobs by the millions for decades,run huge trade deficits in the hundreds of billions yearly, allow foreign countries to steal your intellectual property to the tune of hundreds of billions yearly,and borrow an additional hundreds of billions yearly to prop it all up,and have no adverse effects. Yet that is what is going on. Its a miracle were still afloat at all (Barely)


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## bholler (Aug 10, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> You cant drain a country of jobs by the millions for decades,run huge trade deficits in the hundreds of billions yearly, allow foreign countries to steal your intellectual property to the tune of hundreds of billions yearly,and borrow an additional hundreds of billions yearly to prop it all up,and have no adverse effects. Yet that is what is going on. Its a miracle were still afloat at all (Barely)


I agree completly.  And both political parties are to blame.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 10, 2018)

bholler said:


> I agree completly.  And both political parties are to blame.


Yes they are,and it will all come crashing down at some point. Eventually you run out of other peoples money to borrow and printing more will bring on the Venezuela syndrome.


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## Ashful (Aug 10, 2018)

bholler said:


> If you look at the statistics it hasnt been working for a long time.  Wages havnt been keeping up with inflation at all.



This is true, but I’d argue it’s simply a decade-long correction to the 1990’s, when wage increases in the middle and upper classes were vastly out-pacing inflation, compounded by a few years of instability created in the wake of 911.  The beauty of capitalism, as sportsbikerider is trying to explain, is its self-correcting nature.  Yes, some folks do a poor job of positioning themselves within the system, but that is due entirely to personal ambition, we can’t fault the system.

As to folks being able to make a living wage, no matter what they do... no.  There is no sense in paying for an undesirable service.  The shoe industry example given several pages above is perfect, the consumer never benefits from protecting an industry operating at miserable efficiency.

There are socialist countries, with politics that are the antithesis of my own, but I don’t see people climbing boarder fences to get into them.  It’s interesting that there are always folks suggesting we should move in that direction, having already seen it fail (or failing) under every possible set of circumstances.


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## sportbikerider78 (Aug 10, 2018)

bholler said:


> Yes but the fed has been holding down inflation.  That would help the problem.  But it hasnt.


The fed has been printing money like crazy and this keeps the interest on money down.  Inflation increases because there is now more supply in the system.  The more money the less it is worth.
The only people who don't feel the inflation are the first spenders and the banks borrowing.

As Americans, many have come to accept it as normal that a $1 now is worth $.20-.30 about 30 years from now.  We don't have to accept this as normal.  Inflation is killing retirements.


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## bholler (Aug 10, 2018)

Ashful said:


> This is true, but I’d argue it’s simply a decade-long correction to the 1990’s, when wage increases in the middle and upper classes were vastly out-pacing inflation, compounded by a few years of instability created in the wake of 911.  The beauty of capitalism, as sportsbikerider is trying to explain, is its self-correcting nature.  Yes, some folks door a poor job of positioning themselves within the system, but that is due entirely to personal ambition, we can’t fault the system.
> 
> As to folks being able to make a living wage, no matter what they do... no.  There is no sense in paying fo an undesirable service.  The shoe industry example given several pages above is perfect, the consumer never benefits from protecting an industry operating at miserable efficiency.
> 
> There are socialist countries, with politics that are the antithesis of my own, but I don’t see folks climbing boarder fences to get into them.  It’s interesting that there are always folks suggesting we should move in that direction, having already seen it fail (or failing) under every possible set of circumstances.


Problem with that reasoning is that wage stagnation goes back before the 90s.  And capitalism is not self correcting when it comes to the working class at all.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 10, 2018)

The good news is we are all free to choose which part of the system we want to work with. The last W-2 i ever got was in 1988. I just couldnt live with only recieving 60% or so of what i earned plus as an employee i knew the lions share would go to the owners and not to me and so it should be,but i didnt have to stay. I didnt get rich working on my own, but i would do it all over again. I most likely got a better retirement plan by being SE.  There are ways  to use inflation to your benefit as well. Buy assets that appreciate faster than inflation among others.


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## begreen (Aug 10, 2018)

Well, this is a long way from discussing a distracted driver bill, but I want to commend all for keeping things civil in spite of currently wading through Fed policy (which is not a govt. agency or bank).


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## Ashful (Aug 10, 2018)

begreen said:


> Well, this is a long way from discussing a distracted driver bill, but I want to commend all for keeping things civil in spite of currently wading through Fed policy (which is not a govt. agency or bank).



Yes, exactly.  I enjoy political debates, even with people having an opinion very different than my own, when it can remain civil.  It’s how we all learn.  Folks here have changed my mind on many things, already.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 10, 2018)

Ashful said:


> Folks here have changed my mind on many things, already.


Can you elaborate on that?


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## Ashful (Aug 11, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Can you elaborate on that?



Mostly my views on resource and energy conservation.  My carbon foot print may never dip below 2.5 jebatty’s (my proposed new unit of measurement), but at least I’m thinking about it now, and making a lot of small positive changes.  

Woodgeek has become my favorite read on this forum, without a doubt, even though I’m quite sure his political views are very different than my own.  Same with peakbagger, and even jebatty.  They have a lot to teach us, even if we disagree on key lifestyle choices, and political mindset.  The point is, despite having fun with some occasional political jabs, we keep it civil.

Heck, I really like bholler a lot, and someday I’ll straighten out his thinking on wages, too!   [emoji14]


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## firefighterjake (Aug 12, 2018)

If only the federal politicians behaved like the members here at hearth.com . . . if only . . . things would be a heckuva lot more civil.


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## vinny11950 (Aug 12, 2018)

bholler said:


> I agree completly.  And both political parties are to blame.



I strongly disagree.  Both political parties are not equally to blame for the federal budget deficits.  Since the 80s Republicans keep passing tax cuts that don't pay for themselves, and they keep increasing defense spending.  They drive up huge deficits that Democratic administrations have to deal with later on.  

The Bush tax cuts didn't pay for themselves.  The Trump tax cuts are not paying for themselves either because the deficit is growing again, in a time of economic prosperity - which is remarkable in itself.  The current fiscal policies of this Republican administration put us in the course of stagflation - high interest rates and low growth.

When the next recession hits, we are going to be choked out by high interest rates.  The only choice the fed is going to have is to do more QE.


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## Doug MacIVER (Aug 12, 2018)

now there you go vin! you leave out the fed, got to be in there. the fed has nothing to do with tax cuts or tax increases. the fed is the one that prints the dough you and I spend. they are the ones that tell you what your mortgage payment is and how much the banks charge your dredredit card.
. if all you folks just paid more , as you can voluntarily, we would be all set. I say let's all pay our fair share, tell us what it is? the Fed is the real force behind our economy and they see inflation as the enemy,so make the economy and consumer slow it down. in the mean time just pay your fair share! then we won't ever run into another tough economic time, until we give houses away again to those that could never pay rent? remember Gw ran into the tech bubble rt after Bubba left office? wasn't that the last Balanced era?


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## Doug MacIVER (Aug 12, 2018)

meanwhile back to Mass. on the same topic as my last comment, Mass has a voluntary tax payment ! you can elect to pay the old 5.7% tax rate, if you so choose to> I may be wrong here, but! some 700-1000 of over million tax payers chose that option. I would guess from that , most of those million taxpayers   want to keep their .7% in their pockets! even in this blue of blue almost  triple blue state.

got to correct this , its 1200 and they pay 5.85% not 5.7%. they donate some extra $1/4 million to the states 40bill.+ budget.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 12, 2018)

vinny11950 said:


> I strongly disagree.  Both political parties are not equally to blame for the federal budget deficits.  QE.


So your saying the $10 Trillion with a T, added to the Natl debt during the Obama years was all the GOPs fault ? Frankly we dont see much change in the debt and deficit no matter who is in office. Other than out borrowing,printing and spending each previous administration. It only goes up. Politicians are equal opportunity spenders. The only question is how badly will it end.


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## vinny11950 (Aug 12, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> So your saying the $10 Trillion with a T, added to the Natl debt during the Obama years was all the GOPs fault ? Frankly we dont see much change in the debt and deficit no matter who is in office. Other than out borrowing,printing and spending each previous administration. It only goes up. Politicians are equal opportunity spenders. The only question is how badly will it end.



The Bush tax cuts were a fiscal disaster.  Two unfunded wars were a fiscal disaster.  Add recession spending, and here we are.

From the article link below.





I am glad the Federal Reserve stepped in with QE during the recession, otherwise we would be in far worse place economically.  And the Federal Gov't should have spent more money with a bigger stimulus package for infrastructure at the beginning of the recession.  Instead we continue to waste billions in tax cuts - most of the Trump tax cuts are being spent by corporations on stock buy  backs.  They are not doing capex and they are not passing it along to employees.  When the economy turns, the market loses are going to be savage and all that tax money spent on buybacks is going to evaporate.  At least with infrastructure spending you are left with the roads and bridges, something tangible that adds productivity potential.  Oh well, we are going to do this all over again.

https://www.vox.com/2018/4/10/17215440/deficits-rising-congressional-budget-office-ceo-debate


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 13, 2018)

vinny11950 said:


> The Bush tax cuts were a fiscal disaster.  Two unfunded wars were a fiscal disaster.  Add recession spending, and here we are.
> e


I agree on that point ,every war since WW2 was probably a mistake for US to get involved. And tax cuts while in deficit make no fiscal sense long term. Its worth to note that the Democrats insisted on plenty of their own pork loaded into the last budget in order to vote for it ,ballooning the final numbers. ,so no fiscal responsibility there either. Both parties are spending us into ruin ,only thing different is the agendas.


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## sportbikerider78 (Aug 13, 2018)

The deficit and the national debt are two entirely different things.  Increases in spending (wars, welfare...corp/social, unfunded liabilities, health care..ect) all of that has been done over and over for the last 2 decades.  Both R's and D's are to blame.  
Bush doubled the national debt.  Obama doubled the national debt (2 fold as much as Bush).  We will see that Trumps plan does, but I certainly like tax cuts.  Americans keeping more money they earn?  Never a bad thing.  

But who really doubled the national debt?  Congress approves spending increases.  Now was are hitting more debt limits, not because we don't take in enough revenue, but because there is no limit to how much the government machine can spend.  If we were written a check for 50 trillion today, it would all be gone tomorrow and we would still have our debt.  

To think that tax cuts for the American people is the cause (as if we are to blame) for the governments massive national debt is not true.  

The fed controlling the value of our money instead of individuals/market controlling the value of our money, should make every American take pause.  Our future will always be more secure (sometimes volatile) when we control our future, not someone else that thinks they know better.


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## sportbikerider78 (Aug 13, 2018)

vinny11950 said:


> I am glad the Federal Reserve stepped in with QE during the recession, otherwise we would be in far worse place economically.  And the Federal Gov't should have spent more money with a bigger stimulus package for infrastructure at the beginning of the recession.  Instead we continue to waste billions in tax cuts - most of the Trump tax cuts are being spent by corporations on stock buy  backs.  They are not doing capex and they are not passing it along to employees.



Tons of companies are investing and tons are giving back to employees.  Never mind the fact that the money was not the governments in the first place.  When you say "we continue to waste billions on tax cuts", that money goes into people pockets and it was theirs in the first place.  How could that be a waste when people will invest, spend and save?  It isn't my fault the government can't balance a checkbook.  I earn my money

As a salesman in many (if not all) industries, places are investing like crazy.  It is a good time to sell automation.


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## Ashful (Aug 13, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> Never mind the fact that the money was not the governments in the first place.  When you say "we continue to waste billions on tax cuts", that money goes into people pockets and it was theirs in the first place.


Exactly.  The second you hear someone claim that a tax cut is a waste of money, you can immediately ignore everything else they have to say.  What a distorted line of thinking...


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 13, 2018)

Ashful said:


> Exactly.  The second you hear someone claim that a tax cut is a waste of money, you can immediately ignore everything else they have to say.  What a distorted line of thinking...


Its not the tax cuts, but the increases in spending at the same time that make little sense. Unless Deficits and debt dont,matter. That is a subject for discussion in itself. Id like to know how the members here feel about all the debt and borrowing. And how long they think we can go on at this rate.


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## Doug MacIVER (Aug 13, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Its not the tax cuts, but the increases in spending at the same time that make little sense. Unless Deficits and debt dont,matter. That is a subject for discussion in itself. Id like to know how the members here fell about all the debt and borrowing. And how long they think we can go on at this rate.


been goin on since the big one WWII got stick this in though "The budget moved from *a $734 million* surplus in fiscal year 1929 to *a $2.7 billion*deficit in fiscal year 1932. President Herbert Hoover initially regarded deficits as a short-term necessity while the economy underwent correction."      then there is this http://rooseveltinstitute.org/history-lessons-deficit/


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## vinny11950 (Aug 14, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> but I certainly like tax cuts. Americans keeping more money they earn? Never a bad thing.



So you like the tax cuts even though it has raised the debt?  It is going to be close to $900 billion for the fiscal year ending in September.

If you like the tax cuts so much, then you really can't complain about federal deficits and debt.  You just care about paying as little taxes as possible, even if that means the federal gov't taking out more debt to pay for them.

That's what I don't get, you complain about the federal debt, and then advocate tax cuts that grow the federal debt.

If you truly cared about the federal debt, a much more sensible position would have been to advocate for a continuation of the Obama era tax rates (or even go back to the tax rates before the Bush tax cuts), and a continuation of the 2013 sequester budget deal that would have saved $1.5 trillion over 10 years.

I am just pointing out that your positions contradict.


----------



## sportbikerider78 (Aug 14, 2018)

vinny11950 said:


> So you like the tax cuts even though it has raised the debt?  It is going to be close to $900 billion for the fiscal year ending in September.
> 
> If you like the tax cuts so much, then you really can't complain about federal deficits and debt.  You just care about paying as little taxes as possible, even if that means the federal gov't taking out more debt to pay for them.
> 
> ...


Yes.  Tax cuts are always good.

My positions are not in contradiction at all.  You believe we are in this mess because of not enough taxation.  I believe we are in this mess because of too much needless spending.

Here is a snipped of our budget from Wiki.  See how much it is increasing?


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 14, 2018)

The deficit would fix itself if the Govt would simply freeze spending at current rates. Revenue would quickly catch up. Not only wont they do that ,they wont even address the RATE of increased spending.


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## bholler (Aug 14, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> Yes.  Tax cuts are always good.
> 
> My positions are not in contradiction at all.  You believe we are in this mess because of not enough taxation.  I believe we are in this mess because of too much needless spending.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately history shows us that tax cuts are not always good.  Infact they are usually bad and they have never paid for themselves.  But i do agree the biggest part of the problem is in spending.  And a large portion of that spending is on wars that we have no way of winning and the absurdly bloated defense budget.  And now it is proposed we add another branch to the military????


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Aug 14, 2018)

bholler said:


> But i do agree the biggest part of the problem is in spending.  And a large portion of that spending is on wars that we have no way of winning and the absurdly bloated defense budget.  And now it is proposed we add another branch to the military????


 Its insane . And what are we getting in return for these wars beside thousands of dead and crippled american young people. And trillions in debt. Plus the US always feels the need to rebuild everything it blows up then blows it up again. The ongoing cost of those last few wars are not even included in that $700B defense budget. So probably closer to a Trillion a year that figured in. Are they also figuring in the lifetime cost of supporting crippled soldiers and their families? Probably not.   Our biggest threat is probably China and they just have to wait until we go completely broke trying to police the world, to move into the lead.


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## begreen (Aug 14, 2018)

vinny11950 said:


> The Bush tax cuts were a fiscal disaster. Two unfunded wars were a fiscal disaster. Add recession spending, and here we are.


And the unfunded prescription drug program was both a mess and a bit hit on the budget.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 14, 2018)

begreen said:


> And the unfunded prescription drug program was both a mess and a bit hit on the budget.


 As are the unfunded parts of obamacare,the premium subsidy program as well as the medicaid expansion. Expected to add trillions. So once again, both parties running up debt.


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## sportbikerider78 (Aug 15, 2018)

bholler said:


> Unfortunately history shows us that tax cuts are not always good.  Infact they are usually bad and they have never paid for themselves.  But i do agree the biggest part of the problem is in spending.  And a large portion of that spending is on wars that we have no way of winning and the absurdly bloated defense budget.  And now it is proposed we add another branch to the military????


People keeping what they earn is always good for the American people...which is (quite frankly) all that matters.  More important than budgets/deficits, history has shown that liberty and personal freedom are not compatible with bloated governments.  They are briefly compatible, but not in the long-term.  

Totally agree in military spending.  We can keep a very strong military with the troops at home, other than very strategic bases.  Everyone is clamoring to the idea that we have to go bomb everyone to keep safe.  The notion is absurd.  

I guess we shouldn't be surprised when the defense contractors are heavily financing campaigns for both D's and R's.  

If the fed wasn't able to print money, we wouldn't be able to finance any of these wars.  It is no coincidence that the age of continual war coincides with the age of endless debt.


----------



## Ashful (Aug 15, 2018)

bholler said:


> Unfortunately history shows us that tax cuts are not always good.  Infact they are usually bad and they have never paid for themselves.  But i do agree the biggest part of the problem is in spending.  And a large portion of that spending is on wars that we have no way of winning and the absurdly bloated defense budget.  And now it is proposed we add another branch to the military????



Your use of “good” and “bad” is based on a lot of unclassified assumptions.  Good for who?  Bad for what?

Government is insanely wasteful, the less money passing thru  their hands, generally the better it is for the tax-paying citizens.  My job is very dependent on military spending, but I’m also the first to agree that they have a unique way of finding the most expensive possible way of accomplishing their goals.  Again, on the too-simplistic “good” and “bad” characterization, that’s good for me and bad for you.


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## bholler (Aug 15, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> People keeping what they earn is always good for the American people...which is (quite frankly) all that matters.  More important than budgets/deficits, history has shown that liberty and personal freedom are not compatible with bloated governments.  They are briefly compatible, but not in the long-term.
> 
> Totally agree in military spending.  We can keep a very strong military with the troops at home, other than very strategic bases.  Everyone is clamoring to the idea that we have to go bomb everyone to keep safe.  The notion is absurd.
> 
> ...


History has shown us that tax cuts le as d to short term gains causeing a bubble which is unsustainable.  That is what happened after the reagan tax cuts and the bush ones.  But i am sure it will be different this time


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## vinny11950 (Aug 16, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> Yes.  Tax cuts are always good.
> 
> My positions are not in contradiction at all.  You believe we are in this mess because of not enough taxation.  I believe we are in this mess because of too much needless spending.
> 
> ...



You are looking at the spending numbers without pointing out how they relate to GDP.  As GDP grows, so does government spending .

Looking at historical Federal spending as % of GDP, like the St. Louis Fed does here, you can see that spending is holding a tight range and not moving much beyond that range. 




You make it sound like Federal spending is out of control when it is not.  It is well within historical range, providing the services that help keep society safe, stable and prospering.  It is the same Federal government that has overseen the greatest economic growth, technological advances and wealth creation in human history.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Aug 16, 2018)

vinny11950 said:


> You make it sound like Federal spending is out of control when it is not.  It is well within historical range, providing the services that help keep society safe, stable and prospering.


The chart has no relation to accumulated debt. How do you suppose the 21T and rising will ever even begin to start going down ,when even in prosperous times it still goes up ,and in recession it explodes. More likely we will soon be paying $1 Trillion a year in interest alone ,which is 1/4 of the entire Federal budget. It Eventually(if its not corrected) interest will consume every dollar the taken in that not borrowed or printed. Interest on this debt is the fastest rising Govt expenditure. ID be interested in your solution to this scenario.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/15/opinions/trillion-dollar-debt-interest-opinion-macguineas/index.html


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## sportbikerider78 (Aug 16, 2018)

vinny11950 said:


> You are looking at the spending numbers without pointing out how they relate to GDP.  As GDP grows, so does government spending .
> 
> Looking at historical Federal spending as % of GDP, like the St. Louis Fed does here, you can see that spending is holding a tight range and not moving much beyond that range.
> 
> ...


It absolutely is out of control.  When your government is dropping $1M bombs to kill a guy in a desert that makes $1/day, then delivering entire skids of $100 bills to say "sorry", then the pentagon 'loses' hundreds of billions with zero accountability...you got a problem.  

Couple of points.
1) GDP increases with government spending.  Government spending makes GDP increase, as the spending of tax money to buy anything is spending.
2) As the capitalist machine makes more money making goods, exporting goods, why does that mean the government needs to spend more?  Let's say I make sneakers.  Last year I made 100M sneakers.  This year I hire 20 more employees and make 200M sneakers.  How exactly did the government help me make sneakers? 
3) The federal government didn't foster growth in the economy like some grandfatherly figure that helps private enterprise.  I don't know where you create these ideas from.  The federal government does nothing but stagnate growth by wrapping everything in expense, red tape, and overly burdensome regulations.  Individuals have thrived by sheer grit and determination despite government regulation/taxation, not because of it. 

The founding fathers created guidelines for a government that has fostered an incredible country.  However, they created a very, very limited government...which is not what we have today.


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## sportbikerider78 (Aug 16, 2018)

bholler said:


> History has shown us that tax cuts le as d to short term gains causeing a bubble which is unsustainable.  That is what happened after the reagan tax cuts and the bush ones.  But i am sure it will be different this time



At any point in time, you can overpay your IRS tax bill and refuse any returns.  If you did, do you think it would make a difference?  I would think you would rather spend your money where you would like to spend your money....as would I.  It is the same on a national level, as it should be.  

Tax cuts don't cause bubble.  Reckless spending and monetary policy does.


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## Ashful (Aug 16, 2018)

vinny11950 said:


> You are looking at the spending numbers without pointing out how they relate to GDP.  As GDP grows, so does government spending .
> 
> Looking at historical Federal spending as % of GDP, like the St. Louis Fed does here, you can see that spending is holding a tight range and not moving much beyond that range.
> 
> ...



This is an interesting point, and I think it has some validity.  But you conclude that it is “holding a tight range and not moving much”, when your graph clearly shows otherwise.  It has run 20% - 25% of GDP for the last ten years, but it ran 4% - 10% up to WW2, and then 15% - 20% thru the primary Cold War years (1950 - 1980).  So, spending over the last ten years, even as your fraction of GDP, is 3x - 5x higher than pre-WW2 and 20% - 30% higher than any time in the last 70 years, excepting a few years in the Reagan era.

Your conclusion doesn’t agree with the data you provided to support it.


----------



## bholler (Aug 16, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> At any point in time, you can overpay your IRS tax bill and refuse any returns.  If you did, do you think it would make a difference?  I would think you would rather spend your money where you would like to spend your money....as would I.  It is the same on a national level, as it should be.
> 
> Tax cuts don't cause bubble.  Reckless spending and monetary policy does.


I am just telling you what has happened the last couple times we have had tax cuts.   Make what ever excuses you want but that is what has happened.  Why do you think it will be different this time?


----------



## bholler (Aug 16, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> It absolutely is out of control.  When your government is dropping $1M bombs to kill a guy in a desert that makes $1/day, then delivering entire skids of $100 bills to say "sorry", then the pentagon 'loses' hundreds of billions with zero accountability...you got a problem.
> 
> Couple of points.
> 1) GDP increases with government spending.  Government spending makes GDP increase, as the spending of tax money to buy anything is spending.
> ...


So you think you could make and distribute those sneakers without public roads.  And dont you think you might get robbed of all of your sneakees or profits without police?  The list goes on and on.  Without the govt the capitalist system would collapse


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## Ashful (Aug 16, 2018)

bholler said:


> So you think you could make and distribute those sneakers without public roads.  And dont you think you might get robbed of all of your sneakees or profits without police?  The list goes on and on.  Without the govt the capitalist system would collapse



This is a good answer, but sportbikerider78 may have asked the wrong question.  The facilities of which you speak are managed and funded at the local and state level.  Almost all roads, bridges, airports, and transit systems in the U.S. are owned by state and local governments.  This leaves the Interstates, but this infrastructure is paid for mostly through user-related taxes and fees such as fuel taxes, not your federal income tax.

And of course, the police keeping your factory and profits safe are funded at local and state levels, there is minimal involvement of the Federal budget.

It would be a more obtuse reference required, to relate the federal government’s budget, esp. on foreign wars, to the profits and employment of his supposed sneaker factory.


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## bholler (Aug 16, 2018)

Ashful said:


> This is a good answer, but sportbikerider78 may have asked the wrong question.  The facilities of which you speak are managed and funded at the local and state level.  Almost all roads, bridges, airports, and transit systems in the U.S. are owned by state and local governments.  This leaves the Interstates, but this infrastructure is paid for mostly through user-related taxes and fees such as fuel taxes, not your federal income tax.
> 
> And of course, the police keeping your factory and profits safe are funded at local and state levels, there is minimal involvement of the Federal budget.
> 
> It would be a more obtuse reference required, to relate the federal government’s budget, esp. on foreign wars, to the profits and employment of his supposed sneaker factory.


You make a good point there but there are plenty of other examples where govt funding make it possible for companies to operate.  I am not defending the federal overspending by either party.  They are both clearly out of control.  I am just pointing out that in the past tax cuts have not helped the economy or the american people in the long run.


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## bholler (Aug 16, 2018)

And no our spending on foreign wars helps no one but defense contractors.


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## Ashful (Aug 16, 2018)

bholler said:


> And no our spending on foreign wars helps no one but defense contractors.



I have mixed feelings about this.  If we look at this honestly, war is an increadible financial and technology incentivizor.  Much of our bleeding-edge technology is driven by weaponry and defense spending, I work for a tech company that serves this industry, and nothing demonstrates this point better than the space race of the 1960’s.  We are still benefitting from the enormous advancements in materials engineering, developed as part of that effort, which may have taken decades longer without that incentive.

Even today’s proton colliders, such as the European Spallation Source, are only made possible by leveraging on technology developments originally paid for thru military and defense programs.  These technologies are driving so many industries that you might not associate with theoretical or quantum physics, such as medicine and medical, and it wouldn’t exist today without someone having previously spent billions of dollars to build better bombs.


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## bholler (Aug 16, 2018)

Ashful said:


> I have mixed feelings about this.  If we look at this honestly, war is an increadible financial and technology incentivizor.  Much of our bleeding-edge technology is driven by weaponry and defense spending, I work for a tech company that serves this industry, and nothing demonstrates this point better than the space race of the 1960’s.  We are still benefitting from the enormous advancements in materials engineering, developed as part of that effort, which may have taken decades longer without that incentive.
> 
> Even today’s proton colliders, such as the European Spallation Source, are only made possible by leveraging on technology developments originally paid for thru military and defense programs.  These technologies are driving so many industries that you might not associate with theoretical or quantum physics, such as medicine and medical, and it wouldn’t exist today without someone having previously spent billions of dollars to build better bombs.


You are right i should have said spending on these wars.  There clearly have been many benificial things that have come from defense spending.  I typed before thinking.


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## Ashful (Aug 16, 2018)

What really worries me, if we’re on this subject, is whether we are doing the best job of preparing for dramatic changes that technology are bringing our way.  Similar to the way automation replaced countless manufacturing jobs in the 1970’s, Artificial Intelligence is going to replace countless white collar jobs over the next two or three decades, including my own job.  I already see the value of the advanced skills and knowledge I acquired and developed during the course of my graduate studies being eroded by new software, that quickly completes complex tasks that required employers to pay me very handsomely.  That will only accelerate.

China, with state controlled and condensed effort, is in a position to swamp our autonomous network of business and technology development.  I foresee a day, perhaps during my own lifetime, when the tables turn in our current relationship, of who serves who.

This will be very disruptive for folks who worked hard to place their kids in positions that align well with our current values and professional value assumptions, once obsolete.  Imagine putting your kid thru school to be an engineer, only to find most of the technical problems that previously required an engineer are now solved by a computer.  It’s not just science fiction anymore.


----------



## vinny11950 (Aug 16, 2018)

Ashful said:


> What really worries me, if we’re on this subject, is whether we are doing the best job of preparing for dramatic changes that technology are bringing our way.  Similar to the way automation replaced countless manufacturing jobs in the 1970’s, Artificial Intelligence is going to replace countless white collar jobs over the next two or three decades, including my own job.  I already see the value of the advanced skills and knowledge I acquired and developed during the course of my graduate studies being eroded by new software, that quickly completes complex tasks that required employers to pay me very handsomely.  That will only accelerate.
> 
> China, with state controlled and condensed effort, is in a position to swamp our autonomous network of business and technology development.  I foresee a day, perhaps during my own lifetime, when the tables turn in our current relationship, of who serves who.
> 
> This will be very disruptive for folks who worked hard to place their kids in positions that align well with our current values and professional value assumptions, once obsolete.  Imagine putting your kid thru school to be an engineer, only to find most of the technical problems that previously required an engineer are now solved by a computer.  It’s not just science fiction anymore.



It is a challenge, but like before, we find other ways to spend our money creating industry that we haven't even imagined yet.

What worries me is sentient AI eventually deciding it's better without us.  I was reading an article on Quantum computing that said Quantum computers can do billions of calculations in a few seconds, while humans, well, we don't match up.  That's the next arms race if you will, different countries are racing to build an AI that will give them an advantage over other countries.  But what if something goes wrong?  By the time we figure it out, the Quantum AI is billions of calculations and decisions ahead of us.  Skynet any one?

On the bright side, we don't have to worry about the deficit anymore


----------



## Doug MacIVER (Aug 17, 2018)

vinny11950 said:


> It is a challenge, but like before, we find other ways to spend our money creating industry that we haven't even imagined yet.
> 
> What worries me is sentient AI eventually deciding it's better without us.  I was reading an article on Quantum computing that said Quantum computers can do billions of calculations in a few seconds, while humans, well, we don't match up.  That's the next arms race if you will, different countries are racing to build an AI that will give them an advantage over other countries.  But what if something goes wrong?  By the time we figure it out, the Quantum AI is billions of calculations and decisions ahead of us.  Skynet any one?
> 
> On the bright side, we don't have to worry about the deficit anymore


----------



## sportbikerider78 (Aug 17, 2018)

bholler said:


> I am just telling you what has happened the last couple times we have had tax cuts.   Make what ever excuses you want but that is what has happened.  Why do you think it will be different this time?



and the issue is spending.  Not tax cuts.


----------



## sportbikerider78 (Aug 17, 2018)

Ashful said:


> What really worries me, if we’re on this subject, is whether we are doing the best job of preparing for dramatic changes that technology are bringing our way.  Similar to the way automation replaced countless manufacturing jobs in the 1970’s, Artificial Intelligence is going to replace countless white collar jobs over the next two or three decades, including my own job.  I already see the value of the advanced skills and knowledge I acquired and developed during the course of my graduate studies being eroded by new software, that quickly completes complex tasks that required employers to pay me very handsomely.  That will only accelerate.
> 
> China, with state controlled and condensed effort, is in a position to swamp our autonomous network of business and technology development.  I foresee a day, perhaps during my own lifetime, when the tables turn in our current relationship, of who serves who.
> 
> This will be very disruptive for folks who worked hard to place their kids in positions that align well with our current values and professional value assumptions, once obsolete.  Imagine putting your kid thru school to be an engineer, only to find most of the technical problems that previously required an engineer are now solved by a computer.  It’s not just science fiction anymore.



This may be true in the programming/IT world, but in manufacturing, someone designs the machines, someone maintains them, someone services the facility...ect.  We are a very, very long way off from a factory that does not require significant, technical oversight....by very smart people.  Even in the situations where there are 'lights out' facilities, they are only making a component, not an assembly.    

Behind every automated machine (for a very specific task), is an entire industry and company that manufactures that machine.  Often times all we see when we look down (say an automotive assembly line), is the robots doing a ton of work that was done by people.  It is true, the welder is no longer doing resistance welds on the line, but there are thousands of people that support one of those robots, from design, manufacturing, integration, quality, sales, electronics manufacturing, servos, servo drives, cabling, cable tracks, PLC's, VFD's, coolant pumps, pneumatics, safety equipment.....ect.  

Technology does indeed change the way we plan for our next job.  There is a big reason I got out of engineering/operations management and into automation sales.


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## vinny11950 (Aug 17, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> This may be true in the programming/IT world, but in manufacturing, someone designs the machines, someone maintains them, someone services the facility...ect.  We are a very, very long way off from a factory that does not require significant, technical oversight....by very smart people.  Even in the situations where there are 'lights out' facilities, they are only making a component, not an assembly.
> 
> Behind every automated machine (for a very specific task), is an entire industry and company that manufactures that machine.  Often times all we see when we look down (say an automotive assembly line), is the robots doing a ton of work that was done by people.  It is true, the welder is no longer doing resistance welds on the line, but there are thousands of people that support one of those robots, from design, manufacturing, integration, quality, sales, electronics manufacturing, servos, servo drives, cabling, cable tracks, PLC's, VFD's, coolant pumps, pneumatics, safety equipment.....ect.
> 
> Technology does indeed change the way we plan for our next job.  There is a big reason I got out of engineering/operations management and into automation sales.



The bigger issue is that automation is putting lower skilled workers out of work. And automation is just going to keep climbing the skills ladder.  So if an area has 100 jobs available and 50 of those jobs are lower skilled jobs, and they get replaced by machines what are the 50 people supposed to do?  Even if they acquire more skills, the higher skilled jobs are already taken.  Basically we are putting a big segment of the population out of work to automate.  Eventually new jobs get created in new industries, but that happens in the long run, and not soon enough to help the people that got replaced by robots.  By then they will have lost whatever savings they had, maybe even their homes.  It almost sounds like a big, fat jobs retraining program from the Federal government should be made available to the people displaced by automation paid for by an automation tax.


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## vinny11950 (Aug 17, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> and the issue is spending.  Not tax cuts.



This is a good article on the policy choices of the last 10 years.  The conclusion, backed up by a lot of data, is that we didn't spend enough coming out of the 2008 recession.  More stimulus programs would have helped more people, and, more importantly, would have raised GDP higher.

http://theweek.com/articles/789956/biggest-policy-mistake-last-decade


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## Ashful (Aug 17, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> This may be true in the programming/IT world, but in manufacturing, someone designs the machines, someone maintains them, someone services the facility...ect.  We are a very, very long way off from a factory that does not require significant, technical oversight....by very smart people.  Even in the situations where there are 'lights out' facilities, they are only making a component, not an assembly.
> 
> Behind every automated machine (for a very specific task), is an entire industry and company that manufactures that machine.  Often times all we see when we look down (say an automotive assembly line), is the robots doing a ton of work that was done by people.  It is true, the welder is no longer doing resistance welds on the line, but there are thousands of people that support one of those robots, from design, manufacturing, integration, quality, sales, electronics manufacturing, servos, servo drives, cabling, cable tracks, PLC's, VFD's, coolant pumps, pneumatics, safety equipment.....ect.
> 
> Technology does indeed change the way we plan for our next job.  There is a big reason I got out of engineering/operations management and into automation sales.



If you had written this 20 years ago, you’d have been mostly right.  I used to work in automation, specifically robotic vision systems, and then high-accuracy pick and place for fiber optic components.  That’s old hat, and not what I am talking about here.

The design of complex circuits and devices is the next phase of automation, thru AI, and it’s not nearly as far off as you assume.  Assuming you were born in 1978, you’ll be seeing this during your working lifetime.  Whereas you needed an EE to design complex circuits in the past, BSEE’s are now often writing design rules to feed to a circuit synthesizer, especially in the realm of digital circuits and microprocessors.  That will only continue to trickle down.

I come from a long line of engineers, at least 4 generations that I know, and perhaps farther back than that.  But I’m not sure I’ll advise my kids to go into engineering.  The social and tech changes I foresee during their lifetimes are so potentially disruptive, that it makes it very hard to assume they’ll be doing the type of work classically attributed to engineers.

Servos, PLC’s, VFD’s, cable track... all great technology of the 1970s.  You need to advance your perspective, by 50 years!


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## sportbikerider78 (Aug 17, 2018)

Ashful said:


> Servos, PLC’s, VFD’s, cable track... all great technology of the 1970s.  You need to advance your perspective, by 50 years!



Most factories are at least 10-20 years behind the times.  

That tech is the more simple motion side..but what do you think keeps a paper mill, printing press or automotive assembly line running?  If you have a 500hp motor driving a massive hydraulic press....there's only a few ways to do that.

I'm also an engineer....I work in sales, not R&D (thank God), so I get to go into lots of factories.  You may be surprised how many are still run with relay logic and simple sensors.  They have barely even started using PLC's, let along programming an energy saving profile for a large motor to start using a nice VFD.
Most factories that aren't very high volume have almost zero semi-automation and almost none have total automation, in any part of a factory.  In the past, without high volume, you can't justify the cost.  Now the cost is coming down and a simple SCARA robot can be had for $13-18k.


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## bholler (Aug 17, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> and the issue is spending.  Not tax cuts.


That doesnt explain why had pretty serious down turns in the economy after the reagan and bush tax cuts.  I agree over spending is most of the problem.  But there is clearly a cause and effect between those tax cuts and the following economic downturns.


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## sportbikerider78 (Aug 17, 2018)

vinny11950 said:


> The bigger issue is that automation is putting lower skilled workers out of work. And automation is just going to keep climbing the skills ladder.  So if an area has 100 jobs available and 50 of those jobs are lower skilled jobs, and they get replaced by machines what are the 50 people supposed to do?  Even if they acquire more skills, the higher skilled jobs are already taken.  Basically we are putting a big segment of the population out of work to automate.  Eventually new jobs get created in new industries, but that happens in the long run, and not soon enough to help the people that got replaced by robots.  By then they will have lost whatever savings they had, maybe even their homes.  It almost sounds like a big, fat jobs retraining program from the Federal government should be made available to the people displaced by automation paid for by an automation tax.


Where did all the secretaries go when we got computers?
Were did all the loggers go when we started using emails instead of paper?
Where did the cobblers go when we started buying sneakers?
Where did the gas station attendant go we got automated credit card pumps?
Where did the taxi drivers go when we got Uber?

Do you really think this is a logical line of thinking?  
All of these improvements have freed up an immeasurable amount of money for the consumer.  Money to spend on things we don't even know will exist, that will drive an industry that hasn't been created.


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## Doug MacIVER (Aug 17, 2018)

Ashful said:


> If you had written this 20 years ago, you’d have been mostly right.  I used to work in automation, specifically robotic vision systems, and then high-accuracy pick and place for fiber optic components.  That’s old hat, and not what I am talking about here.
> 
> The design of complex circuits and devices is the next phase of automation, thru AI, and it’s not nearly as far off as you assume.  Assuming you were born in 1978, you’ll be seeing this during your working lifetime.  Whereas you needed an EE to design complex circuits in the past, BSEE’s are now often writing design rules to feed to a circuit synthesizer, especially in the realm of digital circuits and microprocessors.  That will only continue to trickle down.
> 
> ...



Tell you kids, med school. Podiatry! With the fall of high quality shoe making, from generic world wide last, the almost complete collapse of welt shoe mfg by exact widths, rise cement and flat lasted foot wear. https://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/podiatrists.htm.


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## bholler (Aug 17, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> Where did all the secretaries go when we got computers?
> Were did all the loggers go when we started using emails instead of paper?
> Where did the cobblers go when we started buying sneakers?
> Where did the gas station attendant go we got automated credit card pumps?
> ...


Yes but if those consumers lost their jobs because of those advances or are stuck in min wage or low paying jobs because there is nothing else available there is no money to be freed up.  You can make all of the conjecture you want but your statements simply are not backed up by the data.


----------



## Ashful (Aug 17, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> Most factories are at least 10-20 years behind the times.


Definitely, you are right on that.  And that helps ease the skills transition, for folks caught in the middle, if they’re young and ambitious enough to see it coming and develop proficiency in a new skill.  Nothing new, we’ve been there before, it’s just that this time it’ll be more white collar folk.

I guess my first exposure to this was more than 20 years ago, interviewing for a role as a design verification engineer at a semiconductor manfucturing company.  Whereas I had assumed this would be the act of verifying designs, that company had already advanced into the area of programming computers to do that job, and I was interviewing for the role of creating those design rules.  I wouldn’t be surprised if today AI is even serving that function, looking at product yields and generating its own design rules to compensate and manage those yields.



sportbikerider78 said:


> I'm also an engineer....I work in sales, not R&D (thank God)


Come to the dark side.  :evil grin:



sportbikerider78 said:


> Now the cost is coming down and a simple SCARA robot can be had for $13-18k.


That’s amazing.  I used to design gantry systems, for cases when SCARAs could not meet our placement tolerance requirements, so I was familiar with them 15-20 years ago.  My wife was in the division that used the SCARAs, we got everything they couldn’t do.  



Doug MacIVER said:


> Tell you kids, med school. Podiatry!


With the government having injected themselves into the management of our doctor/patient financial relationship, I am not sure I could recommend that today.  I’ve seen friends kill themselves to get thru med school, and today they’re not “realizing the dream” they had planned for themselves, in the pre-Obamacare era.  This doesn’t apply to all areas of medicine, but one does not always get to pick and choose their residency opportunities, when they get to that point.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Aug 17, 2018)

Doug MacIVER said:


> Tell you kids, med school. Podiatry! With the fall of high quality shoe making, from generic world wide last, the almost complete collapse of welt shoe mfg by exact widths, rise cement and flat lasted foot wear. https://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/podiatrists.htm.


Tell me about it ,im waiting 7 months to see a foot specialist. I could be on crutches by that time.  Must be a big shortage of these people or the boomers are overwhelming them or also possibly Geisinger medical is just too damn cheap to hire more.


----------



## Doug MacIVER (Aug 17, 2018)

I guess if you have read some of my posts you know I come from an old Mfg. family. The best way to describe my factory is the we are a dinosaur! This weeks production included  wire face shields (yes used by chain saw folks), 7 0z. leather cases used for Badge cases in the NYS prison system, 4" X 108" foam for horse leg wraps,Kiwi heel taps packaging, 50' x 50 mm Pneumatic lifter gaskets, fullfillment for a Chinese flooring Mfgr, head gear for orthodontists. pretty wide group of industries, all because of the small size, need HANDS.  If any of you have watched how NFL footballs are made that is my factory>. It is also a USA factory, Mlb on the other hand? Domestic leather mf'd on ADA,OH.
 Until 3d can take natural stuff and produce a 3d  product you still need HANDS. In long run maybe we should keep as many workin as possable!

last two Shoe mfg'ers left in Mass. High end running shoes at New Balence and ALDEN shoe,high.high ,high end Men's dress. Alden will last you a life time if you can find a cobbler or use their rebuild service? Keep in mind these are real cordovan? $$$$$$$$$749.00$$$$$$


----------



## vinny11950 (Aug 18, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> As are the unfunded parts of obamacare,the premium subsidy program as well as the medicaid expansion. Expected to add trillions. So once again, both parties running up debt.



According to the CBO estimate, this is not true.  

https://www.vox.com/cards/obamacare/how-much-does-obamacare-cost-the-government

From the 2012 to 2222 period it is lowering the budget deficit.  More importantly, Democrats spent close to a year holding hearings and debates on how to pay for the damn thing.  They came up with a mix of cost savings and taxes.  The point is, they put a lot more effort and thought into how to pay for the damn thing, than what Republicans did for their tax cuts.  The CBO estimated the tax cut would create a deficit and they just shrugged and passed the bill anyway.  That's because Republicans care more about passing tax cuts than about lowering the deficit and debt.  Every challenge and scenario is an opportunity to cut taxes.


----------



## vinny11950 (Aug 18, 2018)

Ashful said:


> This is an interesting point, and I think it has some validity.  But you conclude that it is “holding a tight range and not moving much”, when your graph clearly shows otherwise.  It has run 20% - 25% of GDP for the last ten years, but it ran 4% - 10% up to WW2, and then 15% - 20% thru the primary Cold War years (1950 - 1980).  So, spending over the last ten years, even as your fraction of GDP, is 3x - 5x higher than pre-WW2 and 20% - 30% higher than any time in the last 70 years, excepting a few years in the Reagan era.
> 
> Your conclusion doesn’t agree with the data you provided to support it.



Look at the chart again, there is no trend in the line.  Since 70s it has been in that range.  It certainly doesn't support the argument that spending is out of control.  If spending was out of control, the trend in the line would be up.  There is no up trend.

And seriously, do you really want to go back to pre-WW2 spending levels when the economy was struggling?  Then there was a major uptick in government spending for the war effort and low and behold, the economy takes off.  As a result of major government spending.  

The argument that federal government spending is not in part responsible for the success of the economy is contrary to the reality that the US economy is the biggest economy in the world.  SS, Medicare and Medicaid are part of the economic foundation that provide people with some security to take risks, open businesses and spend.  Without those programs the uncertainty of the future would make people save much more which in turn would stall the economy and probably cause a major recession.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Aug 18, 2018)

vinny11950 said:


> According to the CBO estimate, this is not true.
> 
> https://www.vox.com/cards/obamacare/how-much-does-obamacare-cost-the-government
> 
> .


Medicaid cost estimate running 49% ABOVE estimates. 
https://www.investors.com/news/obamacare-medicaid-costs-rocket-49-past-estimates/


----------



## Doug MacIVER (Aug 19, 2018)

'Interesting stats, from of all places CNN.  Big three in 1956, Ford,Gm, Chrysler, employed over one million. today's  Big Three Apple, Google, Facebook two hundred thirty thousand? Alot more money in fewer hands. link  will not paste? From Fareed Zakaria GPS show ,interview with Simon Winchester 
https://www.cnn.com/shows/fareed-zakaria-gps


----------



## CaptSpiff (Aug 19, 2018)

Doug MacIVER said:


> 'Interesting stats, from of all places CNN.  Big three in 1956, Ford,Gm, Chrysler, employed over one million. today's  Big Three Apple, Google, Facebook two hundred thirty thousand? A lot more money in fewer hands. link  will not paste? From Fareed Zakaria GPS show ,interview with Simon Winchester
> https://www.cnn.com/shows/fareed-zakaria-gps


I was only able to find an 80 second embedded video of Mr Simon Winchester describing the incredible precision required to manufacture a Hi-bypass Turbo Fan jet engine, all relating to his totally exaggerated near-death observations of said engine failing on takeoff. Yes,.... I do get really annoyed when highly intelligent and credentialed people over-dramatically try to colorize an event that true experts, who have planned and trained for it, manage professionally and routinely. Be they firefighters, airplane pilots, or surgeons.
My point: Transport Aircraft are designed for engine failure on takeoff. Pilots train for that, and worse, in full motion simulators. Just sit back and enjoy the flight.


----------



## CaptSpiff (Aug 19, 2018)

Doug MacIVER said:


> 'Interesting stats, from of all places CNN.  Big three in 1956, Ford, GM, Chrysler, employed over one million. Today's  Big Three Apple, Google, Facebook two hundred thirty thousand? A lot more money in fewer hands. link  will not paste? From Fareed Zakaria GPS show ,interview with Simon Winchester
> https://www.cnn.com/shows/fareed-zakaria-gps


So,... thanks for letting me get that rant out in the prior post. 

I never did get to find the full show video. Is there a path I missed?

On Doug's point above, I'll never forget my high school economics teacher responding to "What is wealth creation?" 
He said to imagine a lumberjack felling a tree valued at $40. That tree is trucked to a mill, where it's cut into rough dimensional pieces. Those pieces are shipped to a factory where they are finished and assembled into a table and chairs. They are then delivered to a showroom where consumers pay $600 for the set. Basically, that $40 raw potential was processed by workers and each "effort" added some value. ie Wealth was created at each step of the process for each participant.

I enjoy the product and service of 2 of those new Big Three, but I frequently wonder if we're still in the Wealth Creation business, or if we haven't migrated into the Wealth Transfer business?!?


----------



## Doug MacIVER (Aug 20, 2018)

CaptSpiff said:


> So,... thanks for letting me get that rant out in the prior post.
> 
> I never did get to find the full show video. Is there a path I missed?
> 
> ...


sorry about link, it is explained.  agree totally with your teacher. of the million employees in '56, how many other jobs in the suppliers to those three? compare the #'s in AI. I'll guess, a lot less! today we import and sell, service, dispose. did I miss anything?


----------



## sportbikerider78 (Aug 20, 2018)

bholler said:


> Yes but if those consumers lost their jobs because of those advances or are stuck in min wage or low paying jobs because there is nothing else available there is no money to be freed up.  You can make all of the conjecture you want but your statements simply are not backed up by the data.



All levels of skill have their transitions through technology.  All have hurdles that bruise and damage income short term.  There really is nothing that doesn't.  Harping on minimum wage jobs is pointless, because we all go through factories closing/opening, moving from state to state, industries changing.  It is the way it is even if we don't like it.

Let's take one example....

How many people do you think would drive cars if they were built by hand without automation?  The cost would be astronomical.  Did that put some line workers out of a job?  Yes, absolutely, while also adding higher tech jobs in the manufacture of the automation, maint, ect.
However, now you and I (not just rich people) can afford to drive any distance we are willing to, for good work.  Hundreds of millions do better in the US alone because cars are more affordable.

You could absolutely make the argument that we should not automate the line.  That would be fine and then that company would be out of business because another company would compete with automation.  Now the entire factory is looking for a job instead of 20% of the line workers.

9 times out of 10 (in my experience) when companies make productivity improvements, they aren't using it as a way to get rid of people, they are looking at it as a way to eliminate a specific task that is bad for people.  When they see the productivity gain, they keep the person and put them in a different role.  I see that more times then not.  When I was a production manager I did countless productivity projects.  I never let anyone go because of it.

Fighting technology and improvements in efficiency is not how we stay a global leader in GDP and technology.  Completely changing how we educate our kids and prep them for jobs that don't exist yet, is how we win this race.


----------



## begreen (Aug 20, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> How many people do you think would drive cars if they were built by hand without automation? The cost would be astronomical.


Cars used to be made by hand and they were not more expensive relative to income. If cars were still made by hand they would not necessarily cost a fortune, but in general they would be simpler with less features (including safety) and less variety. Luxury cars (and trucks) came about because there is a lot more profit in them. But many things that we now take for necessity (pwr windows, A/C, 12 pkr stereo, nav systems, 4wd, etc. are not necessities for safe and affordable transportation. Here is a fascinating study comparing car costs vs income vs GDP since the 60s.
https://blog.chron.com/carsandtrucks/2016/04/cost-of-a-car-in-the-year-you-were-born/

It's estimated that as many as 800 million jobs will be lost to automation worldwide in the next 12 yrs., 73 million of them in the US. What we don't know is how many new jobs will be created during that period. Estimates are all over the place on that score.
https://www.mckinsey.com/featured-insights/future-of-organizations-and-work/Jobs-lost-jobs-gained-what-the-future-of-work-will-mean-for-jobs-skills-and-wages#part 1


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## sportbikerider78 (Aug 20, 2018)

begreen said:


> Cars used to be made by hand and they were not more expensive relative to income. If cars were still made by hand they would not necessarily cost a fortune, but in general they would be simpler with less features (including safety) and less variety. Luxury cars (and trucks) came about because there is a lot more profit in them. But many things that we now take for necessity (pwr windows, A/C, 12 pkr stereo, nav systems, 4wd, etc. are not necessities for safe and affordable transportation. Here is a fascinating study comparing car costs vs income vs GDP since the 60s.
> https://blog.chron.com/carsandtrucks/2016/04/cost-of-a-car-in-the-year-you-were-born/
> 
> It's estimated that as many as 800 million jobs will be lost to automation worldwide in the next 12 yrs., 73 million of them in the US. What we don't know is how many new jobs will be created during that period. Estimates are all over the place on that score.
> https://www.mckinsey.com/featured-insights/future-of-organizations-and-work/Jobs-lost-jobs-gained-what-the-future-of-work-will-mean-for-jobs-skills-and-wages#part 1



You took that discussion down a rabbit hole.  Assuming you still want a car of today, for today.  Not the car of yesteryear for today.
The market tells us they want a modern car with all the gizmos..and one that goes 300k+ miles. 

73 million jobs lost in the US?  That is far from the truth it is on the moon.  In 2017 there were only 125M people working in the US in all jobs.

Here is an article suggesting exactly the opposite.  It is in the article you posted.  It explains exactly the points I have been highlighting.  https://www.mckinsey.com/featured-i...-from-history-on-ai-automation-and-employment


----------



## bholler (Aug 20, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> All levels of skill have their transitions through technology.  All have hurdles that bruise and damage income short term.  There really is nothing that doesn't.  Harping on minimum wage jobs is pointless, because we all go through factories closing/opening, moving from state to state, industries changing.  It is the way it is even if we don't like it.
> 
> Let's take one example....
> 
> ...


I am not against automation or progress.  I was just pointing out that if we continue to loose the manufacturing jobs that provide decent pay and do nothing to replace them with anything but low wage jobs it doesnt matter how much money is freed up because there will be no middle class left to buy those goods.

Now about your other comments.  You want to have tax cuts and reduce spending while improving our education system to the point we are preparing kids for the unknown jobs of the future.  How do you propose we do that.

And on to of that you think parents should just drive as far as they have to to find good paying jobs leaving those kids with even less time with their parents.  That is good for no one.


----------



## bholler (Aug 20, 2018)

Oh and the 73 mill jobs lost as he said does not account for other jobs added so the net loss would be much less.


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## Ashful (Aug 21, 2018)

begreen said:


> Cars used to be made by hand and they were not more expensive relative to income. If cars were still made by hand they would not necessarily cost a fortune...



First, the income of whom?  The pre-minimum wage (1938) guys on the line?  There are some horrifying stories of the living conditions of those factory workers in those days. 

But beyond that, are you honestly trying to use a comparison between today’s tech-packed cars and shoddy antiques with minimal R&D investment, zero safety and emissions requirements, to say it could be as cheap to build without automation?  Really?

You’re also using data from pre auto union and benefit-laden days to compare to the cost of operating a workforce in today’s socialized and powerfully unionized United States.  Let’s at least TRY to be a little honest in our comparisons, eh?


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## begreen (Aug 21, 2018)

Of course not. Thought that was made clear. There probably would still be some automation making the bolt-on, sub-components of the car. Note that I said less safety features and emissions control (which 45 is trying to phase out anyway). I looked at around 1965 wages and car costs for comparison which I thought was during union heydays. No need to get so uppity about it while asking questions. I have disassembled and reassembled a few cars back in the 70's and have a fair idea of what was in them compared to cars of today.


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## Doug MacIVER (Aug 21, 2018)

ok, perspective, who invented 3D print, the machines, and where are they being built? Honest question. I have not research this at all? Where are most of the robots and automation devices being built and where were they patented?  just some thoughts?


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## Ashful (Aug 21, 2018)

begreen said:


> Of course not. Thought that was made clear. There probably would still be some automation making the bolt-on, sub-components of the car. Note that I said less safety features and emissions control (which 45 is trying to phase out anyway). I looked at around 1965 wages and car costs for comparison which I thought was during union heydays. No need to get so uppity about it while asking questions. I have disassembled and reassembled a few cars back in the 70's and have a fair idea of what was in them compared to cars of today.


Hah... sorry for the "uppity" response, but I feel it was an unfair comparison.  The answer is that automation has made it possible for us to build much (much, much) better cars at a similar (per average salary) price point.  Yes, cars did not cost that much more (per average salary) back before automation, but those cars sucked, by today's standards.


----------



## begreen (Aug 21, 2018)

Sucked is relative. Having owned simpler vehicles from that time there is something to say for their reliability and for their being user repairable. I like KISS engineering, Complex is not always the best option. At the time I knew Volvos inside and out and could work on any part of them. But I hear you and do like and use power window, AC, and cruise control when needed.


----------



## Ashful (Aug 22, 2018)

I’ve owned a lot of classic cars, and they are indeed easier for owner repair, which is good, because they needed it.  Distributors, points, plugs, chassis lube, carb adjustments, lack of safety equipment, and a complete disregard for emissions.  Call it simple, I guess it was, but no one was keeping them as a daily driver to 200k miles.  Today, that’s not even very remarkable.


----------



## begreen (Aug 22, 2018)

Ashful said:


> I’ve owned a lot of classic cars, and they are indeed easier for owner repair, which is good, because they needed it.  Distributors, points, plugs, chassis lube, carb adjustments, lack of safety equipment, and a complete disregard for emissions.  Call it simple, I guess it was, but no one was keeping them as a daily driver to 200k miles.  Today, that’s not even very remarkable.


Not so, lots of old Volvos passed the 200K mark. I crossed country with a 66 in that range. Heck, my dad's 67 Buick Special wagon passed 350K and it finally had to be retired when the frame rotted out due to road salt.


----------



## Ashful (Aug 22, 2018)

begreen said:


> Not so, lots of old Volvos passed the 200K mark. I crossed country with a 66 in that range. Heck, my dad's 67 Buick Special wagon passed 350K and it finally had to be retired when the frame rotted out due to road salt.



I’ve never seen an old Volvo make it much past ten years here.  Road salt ate them all.  I had two 240’s, both condemned for rot around age 10.  Maybe they did better where it doesn’t snow, but even an example of one brand doesn’t disqualify my general statement above:   We can afford better cars, thanks to the reduced cost of automation.  If you want to argue this point, you’re up against every process control engineer in the business


----------



## begreen (Aug 22, 2018)

Ashful said:


> I’ve never seen an old Volvo make it much past ten years here.  Road salt ate them all.  I had two 240’s, both condemned for rot around age 10.  Maybe they did better where it doesn’t snow, but even an example of one brand doesn’t disqualify my general statement above:   We can afford better cars, thanks to the reduced cost of automation.  If you want to argue this point, you’re up against every process control engineer in the business


Mine were all back east, New England vehicles then. There is a P1800 on Long Island that has passed a million miles. Favorite was the 1966 model wagon, but I never had one older than 10yrs. Dad's Buick was in NY state. Some things about modern cars are great, but there is a lot to be said for the durability of some older vehicles too. What is best about automation is that it relieves the assemblers of a lot of body wrecking, repetitive work.


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## Ashful (Aug 22, 2018)

begreen said:


> Mine were all back east, New England vehicles then. There is a P1800 on Long Island that has passed a million miles. Favorite was the 1966 model wagon, but I never had one older than 10yrs. Dad's Buick was in NY state. Some things about modern cars are great, but there is a lot to be said for the durability of some older vehicles too. What is best about automation is that it relieves the assemblers of a lot of body wrecking, repetitive work.



You’re way back before my time.  All of my Volvo experience is after about 1980.


----------



## begreen (Aug 22, 2018)

Yeah, I'm a geezer. First car was a 1956 Packard Clipper. Great vehicle, it had been in storage for 10 yrs and only had about 11,000 miles on it. Now I drive a Volt.  I changed my car horn to gunshot sounds. People get out of the way much faster now..


----------



## fbelec (Aug 23, 2018)

begreen said:


> I changed my car horn to gunshot sounds. People get out of the way much faster now..



LOL LOL


----------



## sportbikerider78 (Aug 23, 2018)

vinny11950 said:


> According to the CBO estimate, this is not true.
> 
> https://www.vox.com/cards/obamacare/how-much-does-obamacare-cost-the-government
> 
> From the 2012 to 2222 period it is lowering the budget deficit.  More importantly, Democrats spent close to a year holding hearings and debates on how to pay for the damn thing.  They came up with a mix of cost savings and taxes.  The point is, they put a lot more effort and thought into how to pay for the damn thing, than what Republicans did for their tax cuts.  The CBO estimated the tax cut would create a deficit and they just shrugged and passed the bill anyway.  That's because Republicans care more about passing tax cuts than about lowering the deficit and debt.  Every challenge and scenario is an opportunity to cut taxes.


It was supposed to save money.  But we all knew that would not happen and now TONS of people are paying out the nose for insurance with features they never wanted.  I have friends that had their insurance go up 2-3x.  Absolute failure.


----------



## bholler (Aug 23, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> It was supposed to save money.  But we all knew that would not happen and now TONS of people are paying out the nose for insurance with features they never wanted.  I have friends that had their insurance go up 2-3x.  Absolute failure.


Absolute failure because many did everything in their power to make it fail with no regard for the american public.


----------



## sportbikerider78 (Aug 23, 2018)

bholler said:


> Absolute failure because many did everything in their power to make it fail with no regard for the american public.


It passed.  And it was unfunded.  And it screwed tons of hard working people.  And it still is screwing them.  

"We have to pass obamacare to see what is in it!!"  - Democratic speaker of the house Pelosi


----------



## bholler (Aug 23, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> It passed.  And it was unfunded.  And it screwed tons of hard working people.  And it still is screwing them.
> 
> "We have to pass obamacare to see what is in it!!"  - Democratic speaker of the house Pelosi


Ok no it wasnt un funded.  And yes it was far from perfect but if it was worked on from the start we could have addressed many of the problems by now.  Instead it was fought from the start and never given a chance to work.  
Yes it screwed some but it also helped many others.


----------



## sportbikerider78 (Aug 23, 2018)

bholler said:


> Ok no it wasnt un funded.  And yes it was far from perfect but if it was worked on from the start we could have addressed many of the problems by now.  Instead it was fought from the start and never given a chance to work.
> Yes it screwed some but it also helped many others.


The only way it can 'work' is with more subsidization of the insurance companies.  Guess where that money comes from?  You and me hard working guys and goes right to insurance companies so other people can have lower rates.  Classic wealth redistribution and a mixture of corporate fascism worked right in.

Let's require people to have healthcare by law. 
Then we make insurance more expensive by adding requirements to the insurance companies for 'minimum coverage'.  
Then let's subsidize the insurance companies to make it cheaper for a few and more expensive for others.
Now let's all step back and be surprised when this doesn't work out well and start blaming each other.  

Meanwhile, insurance companies got more customers by law, raised rates under the guise of more coverage, and became much more powerful because of it.  This was a blow to the public by government, through insurance companies, who just got richer.  

There is some serious crony capitalism going on here.  It should make all of our hairs go up.  Health insurance isn't the only place stuff like this happens.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 23, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> The only way it can 'work' is with more subsidization of the insurance companies.  .


Thats the problem. Insurance companies should be no where near health care. Thats why i have to wait 7 months for an appointment.So the insurance company can extract 7 months of premiums out of me before they have to provide any services. Which is at least 20 times the cost of the visit. Imagine if SS was run through an insurance company. Millions more got FREE healthcare than before, so who gets the bill for that. The more free HC  doled out the more it cost for paying customers. IF you think HC is expensive now, wait until its free for everyone.


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## maple1 (Aug 23, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Thats the problem. Insurance companies should be no where near health care.



Agree 100%.


----------



## bholler (Aug 23, 2018)

maple1 said:


> Agree 100%.


Same here


----------



## Ashful (Aug 23, 2018)

bholler said:


> Same here



Hah... bholler and I agree on a “political hot topic”!


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Aug 23, 2018)

bholler said:


> Same here


Well theres at least one thing we all agree on.


----------



## BrotherBart (Aug 23, 2018)

Ashful said:


> Hah... bholler and I agree on a “political hot topic”!



I felt the ground shake and had to come in and see what was going on.


----------



## vinny11950 (Aug 24, 2018)

Maybe Texas government needs some love too...

They are asking for $12bn from the Federal Gov't to help build sea walls to protect vital energy infrastructure against storm surges, which are probably made worse by global warming.

https://apnews.com/4adc5a2a2e6b45df953ebcba6b63d171

But Texas hates Federal spending.  And Texas is big enough to pay for it themselves, I mean they have that $11bn rainy day fund.  Or maybe, just maybe, the petroleum companies that benefit from the sea walls should agree to pay a $12bn tax to pay for the thing.  Is this not a clear case of free-rider?


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## Ashful (Aug 24, 2018)

vinny11950 said:


> Maybe Texas government needs some love too...
> 
> They are asking for $12bn from the Federal Gov't to help build sea walls to protect vital energy infrastructure against storm surges, which are probably made worse by global warming.
> 
> ...



Meh.  That article has such an obvious left-leaning bias, it’s hard to take anything in it seriously.  Hurricane Harvey swamped Houston.  There’s more in Houston than just oil companies.

... and exactly what does this have to do with Mass government?


----------



## vinny11950 (Aug 24, 2018)

Ashful said:


> ... and exactly what does this have to do with Mass government?



And you think Texas pork spending is not as bad as Mass gov spending?  

That $12bn to build those walls is going to have to be borrowed money unless the budget is balanced.  

Why not just admit that we have problems that require federal spending and coordination and then figure out a tax to pay for it instead of spending money on sea walls while advocating tax cuts, which both Texas senators strongly supported.

And which part of the article is wrong?


----------



## sportbikerider78 (Aug 24, 2018)

Like I said many pages ago..they ALL push each other out of the way to get federal money.  No..they don't deserve it.  No..no one should get any...of any kind.  Each state needs to budget for it's own disasters.

Maybe if companies and people didn't get bailout constantly, they would plan better.  Maybe not..but it's not everyone else's problem if you dont.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 24, 2018)

Mass debt is lower than Connecticut, much lower than Texas or Californian but a much smaller state.  Texas already had almost 300B of debt .Californian is the debt king (after the Fed Govt)approaching one trillion figuring in unfunded pensions. Perhaps debt per resident or debt per taxpayer is,more relevant.


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## Doug MacIVER (Sep 13, 2018)

well 70+ homes blow up(4:30pm), and latest news no answers? gov. Baker pissed and doesn't give any answers?160,ooo can't go home( little folk ooo) . somethin goin on here?


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## Ashful (Sep 13, 2018)

Doug MacIVER said:


> well 70+ homes blow up(4:30pm), and latest news no answers? gov. Baker pissed and doesn't give any answers?160,ooo can't go home( little folk ooo) . somethin goin on here?



News story I just read (which was buried, not front page) said 1 house blew up, 39 homes damaged, 4 people injured.  Got a link to your story?


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## Doug MacIVER (Sep 13, 2018)

Ashful said:


> News story I just read (which was buried, not front page) said 1 house blew up, 39 homes damaged, 4 people injured.  Got a link to your story?


https://www.wcvb.com/local-news


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## bholler (Sep 13, 2018)

Ashful said:


> News story I just read (which was buried, not front page) said 1 house blew up, 39 homes damaged, 4 people injured.  Got a link to your story?


That was the gas explosion in pa not mass


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## Ashful (Sep 14, 2018)

bholler said:


> That was the gas explosion in pa not mass


Geez... we had one, too?  Here’s the story to which I was referring... should never just take the first link:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/explosions-damage-many-homes-cant-even-see-sky-213109765.html

Obviously it’s much worse than the story this picture paints.


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## fbelec (Sep 14, 2018)

just listen to the news. many building blown up only a few off it's foundation, other people had their windows open so house wasn't moved but many fires. state police report 70+ buildings on fire. still not done the gas pressure was some how pushed beyond what the regulators can handle so the excess pressure open gas valves and weak spots not usually a problem and poof. all the gas and electric to Andover, North Andover and Lawrence is off they are just waiting for the pressure to drop before they can start checking one house at a time before they turn it back on. the city of Lawrence took the biggest hit. no power or gas and they say it might take 1 to 2 weeks to recover enough to turn it back on


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## fbelec (Sep 14, 2018)

and many in the hospital with blast injury. so far 1 dead when a chimney blew up and fell on the guys car with him in it.


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