# Conflicting Info & Opinions



## Racine16 (Sep 13, 2021)

I recently purchased a home with a chimney...it is used for both a wood burning fireplace and the furnace.   one of the caps was missing so I had it replaced and had them look at the chimney as I was aware it needed mason work at a minimum.  I must add I do not ever plan to burn wood as my son and I have asthma.  The guy who capped the chimney said not to use the fireplace (not an issue). He said it needs a lot of work up on the roof and that the liner is not the correct size for the furnace I have. He also said the size I need for my furnace would not fit in the current chimney. I explained I’m in the process of replacing the furnace and he said to get the specs and he will try to help. My plumber insists there is no issue and the furnace has been there using that fireplace for 30 years.  Now the plumber is having a disagreement with the town inspector regarding the BTUs so I’m assuming the chimney guy was correct. The plumber is saying it meets code and certifying it. My question is what is the most cost effective way to resolve this as I suspect I will need to make some correction to this fireplace to make it safe to vent my gas furnace. Funds are limited but I need my house safe and I am very concerned about how this can be resolved.


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## gthomas785 (Sep 13, 2021)

Get the manual for the furnace and find out what it requires for venting, and compare that to what you have.
If you are replacing anyway, the new 90+% furnaces will need a plastic vent pipe so the current liner would be a moot issue unless it's already plastic.


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## Racine16 (Sep 13, 2021)

gthomas785 said:


> Get the manual for the furnace and find out what it requires for venting, and compare that to what you have.
> If you are replacing anyway, the new 90+% furnaces will need a plastic vent pipe so the current liner would be a moot issue unless it's already plastic.


Thanks for your response...will try to obtain this info


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## moresnow (Sep 13, 2021)

Isn't the new furnace to be power vented with plastic up and out? Add some details. Where is the new furnace being installed etc. Natural gas, L.P., Oil?


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## Racine16 (Sep 13, 2021)

moresnow said:


> Isn't the new furnace to be power vented with plastic up and out? Add some details. Where is the new furnace being installed etc. Natural gas, L.P., Oil?


Some details...we recently purchased the home...the furnace was 30 years old and past it’s life...It is a gas furnace being replaced by a new gas furnace...it is located in the basement. The current chimney in the house has 2 compartments...one vents the furnace...the other vents the wood burning fireplace on the first floor.  I have an inspection report and video but I believe the video is only for the fireplace flue...I will attach the report as some pics are included.  Currently the old furnace is removed...I have a picture of it but not sure that sheds much light and have to find out exactly what product will be replacing it. I have no expertise with regard to plumbing or chimneys so any guidance is appreciated.


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## moresnow (Sep 13, 2021)

I can only say that I had to replace a basement L.P. gas furnace a few years back and it was power vented with PVC vertically up to the ceiling and then horizontally out the side of the house just above the concrete foundation. Since then I have helped with 2 more of these exact same installs. Not sure why yours would be different?
I actually tore down my masonry/brick/failing/leaking chimney below roof level afterwards.  No more masonry chimney worries. Done!


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## Racine16 (Sep 13, 2021)

moresnow said:


> I can only say that I had to replace a basement L.P. gas furnace a few years back and it was power vented with PVC vertically up to the ceiling and then horizontally out the side of the house just above the concrete foundation. Since then I have helped with 2 more of these exact same installs. Not sure why yours would be different?
> I actually tore down my masonry/brick/failing/leaking chimney below roof level afterwards.  No more masonry chimney worries. Done!





moresnow said:


> I can only say that I had to replace a basement L.P. gas furnace a few years back and it was power vented with PVC vertically up to the ceiling and then horizontally out the side of the house just above the concrete foundation. Since then I have helped with 2 more of these exact same installs. Not sure why yours would be different?
> I actually tore down my masonry/brick/failing/leaking chimney below roof level afterwards.  No more masonry chimney worries. Done!


The mason I consulted mentioned it may be more cost effective to vent out the side of the house as opposed to fixing masonry ...it’s an older house with an addition so I guess it was just always vented up the chimney...my plumber seems to want to fight with the inspector and is having the “no one is gonna push me around” attitude ... how low did you take out the masonry And what did you do with the rest of your chimney? The mason said we would have to patch in siding and it probably wouldn’t match so I’m thinking he was suggesting tear it all out...probably because we have no intention of using the fireplace either. That sounds insanely expensive and I assume I need a structural enginer for that mess.


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## Racine16 (Sep 13, 2021)

gthomas785 said:


> Get the manual for the furnace and find out what it requires for venting, and compare that to what you have.
> If you are replacing anyway, the new 90+% furnaces will need a plastic vent pipe so the current liner would be a moot issue unless it's already plastic.


Here is the new furnace...it’s not plastic and looks like water heater and furnace go to chimney


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## moresnow (Sep 13, 2021)

Racine16 said:


> The mason I consulted mentioned it may be more cost effective to vent out the side of the house as opposed to fixing masonry ...it’s an older house with an addition so I guess it was just always vented up the chimney...my plumber seems to want to fight with the inspector and is having the “no one is gonna push me around” attitude ... how low did you take out the masonry And what did you do with the rest of your chimney? The mason said we would have to patch in siding and it probably wouldn’t match so I’m thinking he was suggesting tear it all out...probably because we have no intention of using the fireplace either. That sounds insanely expensive and I assume I need a structural enginer for that mess.


You have a boiler setup that I completely missed in your info/pics. I was speaking about forced air systems. Different animal. My comments likely have zero bearing on your situation.  Apologies if I wasted your time!


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## ABMax24 (Sep 13, 2021)

Just to clarify that is a boiler, not a furnace.

Why is the plumber installing an ~80% efficient boiler, when there are far better 95% efficient condensing boilers available? You could have even got a combination boiler/water heater and got rid of your water tank too.

These condensing boilers are also direct vent using PVC and are commonly vented out the wall, which would avoid your chimney issues.


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## Racine16 (Sep 13, 2021)

moresnow said:


> You have a boiler setup that I completely missed in your info/pics. I was speaking about forced air systems. Different animal. My comments likely have zero bearing on your situation.  Apologies if I wasted your time!


No worries


ABMax24 said:


> Just to clarify that is a boiler, not a furnace.
> 
> Why is the plumber installing an ~80% efficient boiler, when there are far better 95% efficient condensing boilers available? You could have even got a combination boiler/water heater and got rid of your water tank too.


My bad for calling it a furnace....I didn’t realize. I know the water heater is only a few years old. I have no idea why he chose the less energy efficient boiler...after I had the chimney capped and that guy took a peak and said the chimney was too small for liner I would need I asked the plumber what type of boiler he ordered and if it was energy efficient and he said no he didn’t find it really makes a difference. That was the answer received. Again since I have no plumbing knowledge i feel like I’m stuck in the middle of a mess of confusion here And I’m concerned it could cost me both safety and money.


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## Racine16 (Sep 13, 2021)

moresnow said:


> You have a boiler setup that I completely missed in your info/pics. I was speaking about forced air systems. Different animal. My comments likely have zero bearing on your situation.  Apologies if I wasted your time!


No worries...lol...apparently I was calling a boiler a furnace...I’m a bit clueless and stressed...thanks for trying to help


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## ABMax24 (Sep 13, 2021)

Racine16 said:


> No worries
> 
> My bad for calling it a furnace....I didn’t realize. I know the water heater is only a few years old. I have no idea why he chose the less energy efficient boiler...after I had the chimney capped and that guy took a peak and said the chimney was too small for liner I would need I asked the plumber what type of boiler he ordered and if it was energy efficient and he said no he didn’t find it really makes a difference. That was the answer received. Again since I have no plumbing knowledge i feel like I’m stuck in the middle of a mess of confusion here And I’m concerned it could cost me both safety and money.



He's right that you probably won't notice much on your bill. Maybe he thought that the labor would be cheaper this way, but if you need extensive chimney work this won't be the case.

If the inspector says the current install is a no go, ask the plumber what it would cost to swap that boiler for a direct vent condensing type, at the end of the day he/she installed a boiler that does not conform to code and should be at least partly on the hook for the costs to make it right.

The majority of our local plumbers install Navien brand condensing boilers (I have a Navien hotwater heater in my house), and from what I can see online are similar in price range to the boiler your plumber installed, this may be a cheaper option to have the venting run out the wall. There will of course be piping modifications required to hook this up.

Here is their site, Navien is not the only maker of these boilers by any means, it's just the brand I'm familiar with:





						Compare NFB-H Water Heaters | Navien
					

Navien tankless water heaters & boilers for residential and commercial applications use innovative high efficiency technology to provide a comfortable environment.



					www.navieninc.com


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## Racine16 (Sep 13, 2021)

ABMax24 said:


> He's right that you probably won't notice much on your bill. Maybe he thought that the labor would be cheaper this way, but if you need extensive chimney work this won't be the case.
> 
> If the inspector says the current install is a no go, ask the plumber what it would cost to swap that boiler for a direct vent condensing type, at the end of the day he/she installed a boiler that does not conform to code and should be at least partly on the hook for the costs to make it right.
> 
> ...


Thanks! I’ll check it out! So if the inspector passes it should I not worry? I don’t want to have a C02 issue...I assume that could be a problem but again I don’t know much andI have a 5 year old So I worry.  Also is there a way to vent this traditional style boiler anyway other than through this old chimney or would swapping for the condensing boiler be the only way?


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## Millbilly (Sep 13, 2021)

Were there no rebates in your state for efficiency direct vent condensing boilers?  Like stated above I would have gone with a combo unit and had it vented out of the side of the house and abandoned the masonry chimney.


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## ABMax24 (Sep 13, 2021)

Racine16 said:


> Thanks! I’ll check it out! So if the inspector passes it should I not worry? I don’t want to have a C02 issue...I assume that could be a problem but again I don’t know much andI have a 5 year old So I worry.  Also is there a way to vent this traditional style boiler anyway other than through this old chimney or would swapping for the condensing boiler be the only way?



If the inspector passes it, then it should be fine because it meets code. Right now it sounds like the inspector doesn't want to pass the install because the chimney is too small to meet code.

I'm not a chimney expert, but to my understanding this type of appliance needs to be vented up to the roofline, it relies on the heat from the flue gases to draw them up and out of the house, this has to happen either through the existing chimney or through a new one. It can't be just vented out the wall.

This is where a condensing boiler differs, it cools the flue gases down enough that it can safely be vented through PVC pipe. The system doesn't operate on draft and instead uses a blower within the boiler to pull in fresh combustion air and to push the burnt gases outside, making wall vents possible.

As far as CO goes, all houses should have a carbon monoxide detector installed in them for this possibility. I have 4 in my house, one per floor with an additional beside the furnace and hot water heater. I have an extra in the basement, and it will be put in our daughter's room when she is born sometime the beginning of November.


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## Racine16 (Sep 13, 2021)

Millbilly said:


> Were there no rebates in your state for efficiency direct vent condensing boilers?  Like stated above I would have gone with a combo unit and had it vented out of the side of the house and abandoned the masonry chimney.


Hindsight is 2020...I just followed the lead of the plumber knowing nothing myself of the issue unfortunately. I simply hired him to replace the boiler. Then while getting the chimney capped and asking about masonry repair I was enlightened regarding the chimney issue. And how the boiler could pose an issue,  When I brought it to the plumbers attention he had already ordered the boiler and he said the chimney was fine and he would certify it....He said the previous boiler had been there for 30 years with no issues...and that Is where we are now however I heard the inspector was pushing back causing me concern as I want to be sure it is safe


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## gthomas785 (Sep 14, 2021)

That is a fine boiler.. there are many reasons to go with the lower efficiency. Depending on your fuel costs and heat load you may not get much savings from a higher efficiency one, and also your service calls will be cheaper and easier with the 80% unit.

This boiler requires a type I vent which is negative pressure non-condensing. A natural draft chimney works for this, or you can vent it through the wall with a power venter.


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## Racine16 (Sep 14, 2021)

gthomas785 said:


> That is a fine boiler.. there are many reasons to go with the lower efficiency. Depending on your fuel costs and heat load you may not get much savings from a higher efficiency one, and also your service calls will be cheaper and easier with the 80% unit.
> 
> This boiler requires a type I vent which is negative pressure non-condensing. A natural draft chimney works for this, or you can vent it through the wall with a power venter.


Ahhh....I see...I will have to see how the chimney situation pans out and do a cost comparison of that vs changing to a power vent if extensive chimney repair is required. If the inspector passes it as is do you think I can just move on without concern?


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## Racine16 (Sep 14, 2021)

ABMax24 said:


> If the inspector passes it, then it should be fine because it meets code. Right now it sounds like the inspector doesn't want to pass the install because the chimney is too small to meet code.
> 
> I'm not a chimney expert, but to my understanding this type of appliance needs to be vented up to the roofline, it relies on the heat from the flue gases to draw them up and out of the house, this has to happen either through the existing chimney or through a new one. It can't be just vented out the wall.
> 
> ...


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## gthomas785 (Sep 14, 2021)

Racine16 said:


> Ahhh....I see...I will have to see how the chimney situation pans out and do a cost comparison of that vs changing to a power vent if extensive chimney repair is required. If the inspector passes it as is do you think I can just move on without concern?


Yes I would think so.  I don't know about the rules where you live but in my area the plumber who installs it should perform a combustion test and a draft measurement. If all of those are in spec for the appliance then you are good to go. If the liner is indeed too small then the draft reading will be low.

Since you mentioned being concerned about carbon monoxide I would recommend getting a CO detector and put it near the furnace boiler. That way if you do happen to have any draft issues you will know immediately.


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## Racine16 (Sep 14, 2021)

I see...I guess maybe the chimney was considered to be fine for the old boiler but maybe code changed.  The fire inspectors passed the CO2 detector requirement during the home sale but I think I will add some more for peace of mind


ABMax24 said:


> If the inspector passes it, then it should be fine because it meets code. Right now it sounds like the inspector doesn't want to pass the install because the chimney is too small to meet code.
> 
> I'm not a chimney expert, but to my understanding this type of appliance needs to be vented up to the roofline, it relies on the heat from the flue gases to draw them up and out of the house, this has to happen either through the existing chimney or through a new one. It can't be just vented out the wall.
> 
> ...


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## Racine16 (Sep 14, 2021)

gthomas785 said:


> Yes I would think so.  I don't know about the rules where you live but in my area the plumber who installs it should perform a combustion test and a draft measurement. If all of those are in spec for the appliance then you are good to go. If the liner is indeed too small then the draft reading will be low.
> 
> Since you mentioned being concerned about carbon monoxide I would recommend getting a CO detector and put it near the furnace. That way if you do happen to have any draft issues you will know immediately.


Ok...thanks...hopefully that is the case here in NJ as well. I’m definitely gonna grab a few more CO2 detectors for the basement and make sure all gas appliances have one nearby.


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## Millbilly (Sep 16, 2021)

Not to be a stickler for wording, but there is just one oxygen molecule.


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## gthomas785 (Sep 16, 2021)

Millbilly said:


> Not to be a stickler for wording, but there is just one oxygen molecule.


Not to be a stickler for wording, but there's only one oxygen *atom* in a CO *molecule*.


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## Racine16 (Sep 16, 2021)

gthomas785 said:


> Not to be a stickler for wording, but there's only one oxygen *atom* in a CO *molecule*.


Ok…you got me…i think that’s carbon dioxide. I haven’t seen a periodic table in years and didn’t love chemistry


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## gthomas785 (Sep 16, 2021)

Haha I was actually jabbing at Millbilly's use of the word molecule instead of atom, but to clarify further:

CO is carbon monoxide - the dangerous one

CO2 is carbon dioxide - nontoxic and makes up about 0.02% of air that we breathe


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## Racine16 (Sep 16, 2021)

gthomas785 said:


> Haha I was actually jabbing at Millbilly's use of the word molecule instead of atom, but to clarify further:
> 
> CO is carbon monoxide - the dangerous one
> 
> CO2 is carbon dioxide - nontoxic and makes up about 0.02% of air that we breathe


Lol…I knew that I’m just stressed and brain dead…I’m much better at biology or biochemistry if we are talking chemistry…lol


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## Racine16 (Sep 16, 2021)

gthomas785 said:


> Yes I would think so.  I don't know about the rules where you live but in my area the plumber who installs it should perform a combustion test and a draft measurement. If all of those are in spec for the appliance then you are good to go. If the liner is indeed too small then the draft reading will be low.
> 
> Since you mentioned being concerned about carbon monoxide I would recommend getting a CO detector and put it near the furnace boiler. That way if you do happen to have any draft issues you will know immediately.


So the plumber said my chimney is tile lined and fine as is…the inspector was talking about the possibility of it needing a flue…he asked the plumber to just send him a letter with the specs.  the plumber says we don’t need a glue…the tile lined chimney is fine because it’s a natural gas boiler and has always been…never oil


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## blades (Sep 16, 2021)

they use the same orange clay tile liners for Oil as well  ng or propane.  They also work fine for solid fuel appliances provided they are properly taken care of each year.  The issues that arised when the more efficient units came out and the no standing pilot light are that the residue of elements left in the flue from combustion combined with moisture create an acid that leaches the lime out of the mortar joints- hence failure of the system. This became a widespread problem  throughout the northern tier of states due to condensation within the flue from normal temperature swings throughout the years.  Everything was fine until the newer on demand spark ignition systems came about. The old standing pilot flame/s kept just enough heat in the flue to ward off the condensation problems for eons. Thus ends our history lesson for today.   The only good way to determine the condition of the flue/s is with a camera system fed up or down the flue.  The remediation requires , in most cases, removal of the clay tile liner and the installation of  a new stainless steel  liner. It is a expensive  job. Removing the portion of the flue / chimney above the roof line is also expensive- but in lew of that just sealing it off from the elements would suffice if going with a 90+ efficient unit that vents out the side wall.  The perfect time to do removal would be when replacing the roofing materials ( as in a complete tear off).


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## Racine16 (Sep 16, 2021)

blades said:


> they use the same orange clay tile liners for Oil as well  ng or propane.  They also work fine for solid fuel appliances provided they are properly taken care of each year.  The issues that arised when the more efficient units came out and the no standing pilot light are that the residue of elements left in the flue from combustion combined with moisture create an acid that leaches the lime out of the mortar joints- hence failure of the system. This became a widespread problem  throughout the northern tier of states due to condensation within the flue from normal temperature swings throughout the years.  Everything was fine until the newer on demand spark ignition systems came about. The old standing pilot flame/s kept just enough heat in the flue to ward off the condensation problems for eons. Thus ends our history lesson for today.   The only good way to determine the condition of the flue/s is with a camera system fed up or down the flue.  The remediation requires , in most cases, removal of the clay tile liner and the installation of  a new stainless steel  liner. It is a expensive  job. Removing the portion of the flue / chimney above the roof line is also expensive- but in lew of that just sealing it off from the elements would suffice if going with a 90+ efficient unit that vents out the side wall.  The perfect time to do removal would be when replacing the roofing materials ( as in a complete tear off).


Thanks for the info! I have to say I’m certainly learning a lot.  We have no plans in replacing the roof at this point…we will be replacing some masonry at the top of the chimney.   Hopefully the clay tiles are in good enough shape because we are bleeding money and there seems to be the possibility that the current width of that side of the chimney may not be large enough for the correct size metal flue liner we would need. I’m not sure about the pilot flame the previous or current boiler but it was 30 years old…here are both.


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## blades (Sep 16, 2021)

your old boiler may or may not have had a standing pilot.  ( standing pilot - small pilot light always burning)  My hot water heater, 1991 vintage, ( yep 1991 was it's install date) is a standing pilot light unit. I should replace it just because of age ( keep expecting to come home to a flooded basement.)- but it still works - propane fired.
 New ones are expensive and do not last much beyond 10 years if that.

Couple quickies : a home, is a hole in the ground into which one pours money. Boat  hole in water- same- car camper truck ect  portable hole-same


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## Racine16 (Sep 16, 2021)

blades said:


> your old boiler may or may not have had a standing pilot.  ( standing pilot - small pilot light always burning)  My hot water heater, 1991 vintage, ( yep 1991 was it's install date) is a standing pilot light unit. I should replace it just because of age ( keep expecting to come home to a flooded basement.)- but it still works - propane fired.
> New ones are expensive and do not last much beyond 10 years if that.
> 
> Couple quickies : a home, is a hole in the ground into which one pours money. Boat  hole in water- same- car camper truck ect  portable hole-same


Lol…truth.  My hot water heater is only 5 years old so I’m hoping to get some life out of that since every single thing in the entire house in ancient. I just finished replacing a sump pump that looked to be rigged with a garden hose and added a second and a french drain…was in the middle of that mess when we had all the flash floods up here a few weeks ago…just bleeding money. If the central air units die I may have to temporarily do window units until I get some cash up. Heat was a priority with a 30 year old unit and cold winter coming


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