# Who knows OTA TV?  (Dealing with hilly terrain)



## Badfish740 (Jan 14, 2012)

We're really tired of paying for lots of channels we don't watch, plus we're looking to cut spending any way we can so that my wife can stay home with our daughter instead of going back to work.  All the money we currently throw away on satellite TV could be put to much better use.  However, we do still want to be able to watch NBC/ABC/CBS shows as well as NYC media market local news and sports.  According to www.antennaweb.org this might not be possible?  Here is the information I entered:

Location: High Bridge, NJ 08829

Are there any buildings, steeples, towers, or other structures taller than four stories within four blocks of your location, airports within two miles of your location, and/or many nearby trees over 30 feet tall: Yes

Antenna Height: I entered 30'.  My masonry chimney is 23' tall so it would be easy to install a 7' tall mast on which to mount an antenna.  

They recommend a "red" antenna-channel selection given is as follows:
Blue-VHF WNJB-DT 58.1 PBS NEW BRUNSWICK, NJ  110Â°/21.2 miles away-channel 8 
Blue-VHF WPVI-DT 6.1 ABC PHILADELPHIA, PA  215Â°/46.5 miles away-channel 6 
Violet-UHF KYW-DT 3.1 CBS PHILADELPHIA, PA  215Â°/46.5 miles away-channel 26 

High Bridge is located in a hilly area of Northwest NJ in a small valley that is about 48 miles west of the New York City network (NBC/ABC/CBS/Fox) transmitters.  Our elevation is about 400' above sea level, but by using Google Maps (with the terrain setting on) to draw a straight line between my house and the Empire State Building where most of the transmitters are located, I can see that there is an 800' high ridge (400' higher than my home) directly in the way.  The ridge is located about 3 miles east of my house.  Is this the reason that no NYC stations are listed for my area?  Is there anything I can do about it?  Just for the hell of it I went back and changed the antenna height to 60' and only picked up one additional station in nearby Bethlehem, PA.  Any ideas on what type of antenna or other hardware I could use in order to get NYC TV out here?  Philly TV only is a deal breaker because we're NY Giants fans, plus Philly news only covers South Jersey.


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## BrotherBart (Jan 14, 2012)

If you find something that will do it, let me know. Since they went to all digital signals all of the money I spent to get OTA out here in the sticks turned into door stops. Anything between you and the signal kills it dead.


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## Badfish740 (Jan 14, 2012)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> If you find something that will do it, let me know. Since they went to all digital signals all of the money I spent to get OTA out here in the sticks turned into door stops. Anything between you and the signal kills it dead.



Hopefully this will generate a good discussion among other hearth.com cord cutters.  I also posted this on a forum dedicated to OTA TV as well.  I'm hoping that maybe just a big honkin' antenna like this one:

http://www.antennacraft.net/Antennas/AntennasHBU.html

will do the job.  145" is pretty big, but out here it might be our only option.


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## SlyFerret (Jan 14, 2012)

My wife and I had OTA TV for years when we moved out of the city, but I got tired of dealing with flakey reception, so i signed up for DISH.  I think we are closer to the towers than you are, and I still got fed up with reception issues with a rooftop antenna.

We are starting to think about the same thing though, cutting costs where we can so that my wife would have the option to walk away from her job if she isn't able to keep working from home most of the time like she is now.

We just audited the channels we watch and then reduced to the lowest package that had all but one of them.  Saving $30 on my bill after taxes and all.  My plan, if it comes to serious cutbacks is to go to the lowest DISH package that will let me get locals.  That way, I cut to bare minimum cust but still get decent reception.  If I need to cut anymore, I can dump the second receiver on the TV downstairs that doest get much use.

-SF


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## nate379 (Jan 14, 2012)

Would be nice if you could pick and choose channels.  Of the hundred or whatever channels I get I watch maybe 3 or 4 stations.  I had to have that bigger plan to have Discovery and History.


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## heat seeker (Jan 14, 2012)

NATE379 said:
			
		

> Would be nice if you could pick and choose channels.  Of the hundred or whatever channels I get I watch maybe 3 or 4 stations.  I had to have that bigger plan to have Discovery and History.



Yup, I hate getting stuck with "packages". I'm seriously considering dumping the sat. TV. It's nice, but way too costly. The package garbage is driving me away, and they won't budge on it. They did give me $5/month off as a customer retention, but it's still over $60/month - way too much!


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## SlyFerret (Jan 15, 2012)

I was just doing a quick Google search.  Depending on whether or not you own your receivers, you may be able to get locals only for a few bucks a month.  Could be worth calling and asking about.

-SF


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## heat seeker (Jan 15, 2012)

I do own the receiver. I seriously doubt they'd sell me just the locals, but I can askâ€¦it's the package deal all over. I could get a lesser package, but the channels I watch are not in it.


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## billb3 (Jan 15, 2012)

I live practically on the beach and have the rest of the state ( Ma isn't exactly flat) in the way.
Most of the Boston stations I get pretty good with the antenna aimed right at them. (47 miles away ave. )
I get Providence which is only 30 miles away but because the antenna is "off" by about 30 degrees anytime the wind picks up they cut out and are pretty much unwatchable.
ChannelMaster 3020 with a ChannelMaster 0747 amplifier.

A rotator might help a little with the stations I get that are off a little bit, but only in bad weather,   maybe.
Neither of my TV recievers have the capacity to add a channel after  a tune search so I doubt a rotator would do much for me.


I've replaced a high quality RG59 with a high quality RG6 and didn't gain anything. 



One thing that did help (channels cutting out)  was I moved my antenna from one end of the house to the other which got me a few feet further away from trees.




I got tired of Direct TV insisting my reception troubles was  dish placement. They'd send one installer after another  out and  they were swapping it back and forth to the same places claiming it would work better there when it hadn't before. Enough was enough.


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## richg (Jan 15, 2012)

I am in northwest NJ as well, and tried to go over-the-air this past summer. It was a total waste of time and money. I went on antennaweb, bought a top of the line antenna from Crutchfield, and spent half a day installing it and running cables in my house. the only stations I was able to pick up were two local ones from eastern pa. When purchasing the antenna, I read dozens of reviews of people who said "I live in mountainous terrain, and this was the only antenna that worked. I pick up stations from 100 miles away" etc etc etc. My suggestion would be to downgrade to basic cable (10.00 per month from Cablevision), and get Netflix.


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## Badfish740 (Jan 15, 2012)

richg said:
			
		

> I am in northwest NJ as well, and tried to go over-the-air this past summer. It was a total waste of time and money. I went on antennaweb, bought a top of the line antenna from Crutchfield, and spent half a day installing it and running cables in my house. the only stations I was able to pick up were two local ones from eastern pa. When purchasing the antenna, I read dozens of reviews of people who said "I live in mountainous terrain, and this was the only antenna that worked. I pick up stations from 100 miles away" etc etc etc. My suggestion would be to downgrade to basic cable (10.00 per month from Cablevision), and get Netflix.



The forum that I just started posting on said right off the bat that NYC TV would be a challenge from our location, but it is possible.  There are a lot of variables-antenna height, local geography, etc...  I went to TV Fool and got a much more comprehensive picture of what is available at my location-you might want to check it out:

http://www.tvfool.com/

I'll look into the $10.00 a month Comcast deal as well-I didn't know they had that.


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## daveswoodhauler (Jan 15, 2012)

Badfish740 said:
			
		

> richg said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, they don't advertise it at all....you have to call and ask for it in most areas. Problem is, my basic cable used to be $10 and is now $18/month and several of the channels have gone away and been replaced with channels in a language I don't understand


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## Badfish740 (Jan 15, 2012)

daveswoodhauler said:
			
		

> Yeah, they don't advertise it at all....you have to call and ask for it in most areas. Problem is, my basic cable used to be $10 and is now $18/month and several of the channels have gone away and been replaced with channels in a language I don't understand



I just called this morning-get a load of this:  Basic (20 channels) cable is $10.00 a month-what a bargain!  However, I also need to get my internet and phone through either them or the local phone company.  If I get it through them the whole package comes to $106.99 a month  Yes, that's right, $10.00 a month for cable and $96.99 a month for phone and internet-and that's the basic package with no long distance and no super high speed internet.  What a joke...if you guys need me I'll be constructing a 100' tower in my backyard  :lol:

*UPDATE:*

This thing looks reeeeeeeally interesting:

http://www.boxee.tv/

This little doohicky will apparently allow you to interface with Hulu, all of the major network sites, Netflix, etc...through the internet with a remote and a user friendly format just like channel surfing on TV.  In other words you don't have to sit in front of the TV with a laptop and a bunch of cables in order to watch stuff over the internet.  You just sit on the couch and use a remote like you normally would.  The other cool thing is that you don't have to buy the box-you can download the software for free onto a cheap PC or laptop and use that as your box.  Then you just need to buy their remote ($40 on Amazon) to operate it.  I have an old laptop sitting around that would probably work well for this.  Finally, any day now they'll be releasing a tuner add-on so that you can seamlessly integrate OTA TV.  If I go the free download route my costs would be as follows:

Quality HDTV capable antenna - $100
Assorted cables, mast, connectors, etc... - $150
Pre-amp - $50
Software - FREE
Remote - $40
TV Tuner add-on - $50
PC cables, etc... - $50
-----------------------------------------------------------
$440

At the rate I'm currently paying for TV (about $70 a month when you seperate the TV charge from the phone/internet bundle), payoff would be in about 6 years.  Not bad as long as I can get the local channels to work OTA.  I smell a project :lol:


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## sparklow (Jan 15, 2012)

As with most things, you got to try it yourself to know. I use OTA TV only and it works well for me. I have less than $50 invested in it, so you can try it for little money and make a choice. I use a WineGard (sp?) HD1080 antenna, mounted in my attic on a mast I had, attached to 50' of cable which runs down to my basement and then attaches to my old cable system. Try it, you might like it - and you will save money.


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## SlyFerret (Jan 15, 2012)

Badfish740 said:
			
		

> I just called this morning-get a load of this:  Basic (20 channels) cable is $10.00 a month-what a bargain!  However, I also need to get my internet and phone through either them or the local phone company.  If I get it through them the whole package comes to $106.99 a month  Yes, that's right, $10.00 a month for cable and $96.99 a month for phone and internet-and that's the basic package with no long distance and no super high speed internet.  What a joke...if you guys need me I'll be constructing a 100' tower in my backyard  :lol:



The phone/internet stuff adds another kink.  I was thinking we were just talking about TV (since you mentioned satellite earlier).

$96.99 is really high for phone and internet.

I'm sure you can get the local phone company to give you a basic landline and low-tier DSL for much less.  I would guess somewhere in the $50/month range.

Another option is to check out dslreports.com and find a vendor that will let you sign up for "naked DSL" (DSL without phone service), and then sigh up for the lowest Vonage package (or ooVoo or Magic Jack, or a service like that for phone).

I checked out that TVFool.com site.  I ran a report for my address, but I have serious reservations about the results.  It claims I should be able to pick up the Columbus, Ohio locals with an indoor antenna, but I know that to not be true at all.  Even with a rooftop, I had trouble with the Columbus locals, so take the results with a grain of salt.  YMMV, as they say.

-SF


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## rwhite (Jan 15, 2012)

For Internet: 
So if the local phone company has DSL to your location there is no requirement to have a landline. I haven't had a land line in several years and pay about $50/month for internet ,although if you check often you can get deals for $30/month for a 6 months at a time. 

For network news on sattelite:

The dish companies will not tell you this but if you cann and tell them you are going to cancel you can get just the major networks and PBS for $5-10/month. It's not local news though. You get the broadcast from either NY or LA. If you want local you have to write the local network and ask and most will not allow. I think only the local CBS granted me local news.


For OTA:

Search for repeaters in your area. My local repeater is 180 off the city that the news comes from. I tried to get reception from the broadcast city with no luck. I found the local repeater and pointed teh antenna that way and can get 17 channels.


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## begreen (Jan 15, 2012)

NATE379 said:
			
		

> Would be nice if you could pick and choose channels.  Of the hundred or whatever channels I get I watch maybe 3 or 4 stations.  I had to have that bigger plan to have Discovery and History.



You all are not alone. I think this is coming and it will be over the internet. At this point I'm not sure who is going to take the lead here, it may be Google, but it is definitely in the works. 

Another option is the old BUD (big ugly dish). Regular satellite does offer smaller package deals the last time I checked. When we had a big dish we purchased ala carte. Our bill was only $15/mo for exactly the channels we wanted. And we still had OTA. Looks like the prices have gone up since then, and there may be less vendors, but it's still an option:

http://skyvision.com/programming/alacarte.html


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## flyingcow (Jan 15, 2012)

FWIW-I have OTA TV. I can get a couple of stations where I am. But they are 56 miles from my antenna to transmitter. My elevation is high, nothing in the way between the two spots. i have a high end antenna, rotor, good cable, and in-line booster. But i do loose the channels once in a while. Sometimes it's when the geese are migrating   Seriously, I only get a signal strength of 10 to 25 out of a 100. i am on the very edge of reception. Matter of fact I called the TV station, and they couldn't believe i was able to pull them in. but as I said, I'm in a high elevation.


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## firecracker_77 (Jan 15, 2012)

TV isn't that great to begin with.  Dancing with Britney Spears, American Idol, and commercials convincing you to buy things you would otherwise not want.  And 20 news channels which don't tell anything meaningful. You'd be better off with Netflix and Youtube.  Once you stop watching tv, it's hard to go back.


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## flyingcow (Jan 15, 2012)

Netflix has been our primary "channel" for the least couple of yrs.


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## begreen (Jan 15, 2012)

firecracker_77 said:
			
		

> TV isn't that great to begin with.  Dancing with Britney Spears, American Idol, and commercials convincing you to buy things you would otherwise not want.  And 20 news channels which don't tell anything meaningful. You'd be better off with Netflix and Youtube.  Once you stop watching tv, it's hard to go back.



Agreed. We stopped watching commercials 30 years ago, the moment the mute button was invented! I stopped watching regular tv and news around 2000. But I still watch PBS for good British shows, American Experience, Nova, Frontline, etc. Bill Moyer will be returning tonight. We have a computer hooked up to the AV system and watch the Daily and Colbert shows online now.


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## firecracker_77 (Jan 15, 2012)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> firecracker_77 said:
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> 
> 
> ...



I like American Experience and BBC America.  Other than that, I'm good with the internet and Netflix.  I can spend hours just researching stuff on the web.  There's a bunch of things I would like to know more about.  Sitcoms with laugh tracks aren't that interesting in my opinion


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## Lighting Up (Jan 16, 2012)

Badfish said:
			
		

> daveswoodhauler said:
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> 
> 
> ...





Badfish, great topic I'll be watching to see how you make out. I did have a below basic cable hook up for 7.99 years ago which they gave me because I told them I could not get any local station. My cable co is Time Warner and now I have all three cable, Internet-RR, phone package. That's why I like your topic, was thinking of making a change last week. I called TW to tell them I see all these ads from their competitors and even them for new customers so what were they going to offer me...thinking I was going to get the Thank you bull. However they took $30.00 off my bill which puts my bill closer to first time customers pricing...So you never know till you ask. Good luck, hope it turns out well for you.
md


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## PapaDave (Jan 16, 2012)

I've not had any luck here with the OTA stuff. Most any stations are over in Traverse City and we can't get 'em. I guess we're too far out in the boonies.
I think those have internet sites too, so no biggie for us if we really need that.
CBS and TNT are 2 that have an online presence. Then there's hulu where many shows and movies are available. 
We dropped Direct TV about 3 years ago, and don't miss it much. 
I have a small PC I built back in '09 hooked up via HDMI to the big screen LCD TV if we want to watch a movie that way via either the internet or DVD.


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## Badfish740 (Jan 16, 2012)

Lighting Up said:
			
		

> Badfish, great topic I'll be watching to see how you make out. I did have a below basic cable hook up for 7.99 years ago which they gave me because I told them I could not get any local station. My cable co is Time Warner and now I have all three cable, Internet-RR, phone package. That's why I like your topic, was thinking of making a change last week. I called TW to tell them I see all these ads from their competitors and even them for new customers so what were they going to offer me...thinking I was going to get the Thank you bull. However they took $30.00 off my bill which puts my bill closer to first time customers pricing...So you never know till you ask. Good luck, hope it turns out well for you.
> md



We shall see-the folks over at the DTV forum are telling me that NYC area stations are going to be a challenge, but I'm going to give it my best shot.  The part of NJ that we live and work in doesn't really get covered by Philly area news-not to mention sports.


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## velvetfoot (Jan 16, 2012)

Don't forget the amplifier.  I know 5 times nothing is still nothing, but it helped us.


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## SlyFerret (Jan 16, 2012)

If you put in an amplifier, make sure you put the amp up by the Antenna, and not at the end of the feed-line by the TV.

Just to help set your expectations though...

I should also mention that depending on what is causing your reception problems, an amp may not help.  The amplifiers amplify the signal and the noise, so your actual SNR probably won't improve much.  What it does help with is overcoming the signal loss in your feed-line if the signal is weak to begin with.

Also, digital TV is very prone to mult-path interference.  Out where you are, this may not be a problem (it's more common in cities where there are lots of things for the signal to bounce off of).  If your reception problems are related to multi-path interference, the amp won't help there either.

-SF


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## granpajohn (Jan 16, 2012)

sparklow said:
			
		

> I use a WineGard (sp?) HD1080 antenna, mounted in my attic on a mast I had, attached to 50' of cable which runs down to my basement and then attaches to my old cable system. Try it, you might like it - and you will save money.



I think I am using the same antenna. Yes, it will work.

- I didn't want a rotor, but am glad I installed it. It's amazing what a few degrees difference makes with DTV. Furthermore, TV rotors are less costly and smaller than the old days. Our ChannelMaster has a remote, and memories.

- If your TV receiver is older (but still digital obviously), it will likely be more susceptible to multipath. Our first setup used one of those DTV analog converter boxes (Zenith), and it pulled in signals better than the TV tuner. That has since changed with a new (2010 I think) TV.

-Here's where we like to buy: solidsignal.com. BTW TVFool was better than AntennaWeb back when I was researching it. (But use both)

-My location looks good on paper, but we live in a swamp-hole blocked by USAF antenna farm. Very challenging spot. Have lost count of the channels we receive...maybe 45. (That's Washington and Baltimore, generally)

EDIT:  Sorry; upon further investigation, I have the Winegard HD 7695P antenna. Cost at the time, (Aug 2009) about $70


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## richg (Jan 16, 2012)

Vonage will do phone service for $17.00 per month. Add in $10.00 per month for TV, tell them you'll max out at $50.00 per month for internet and if they don't like it, send someone out to disconnect all of your services. They'll do it.


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## firefighterjake (Jan 16, 2012)

Obviously my situation may be different from yours, but living here in central Maine I changed out my antenna, added a rotor and an amp and now I can get stations from both the Bangor and Portland markets . . . the key for me though is my height and the rotor.


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## billb3 (Jan 17, 2012)

Night and day difference for me with an amplifier.
I tried the antenna in the attic first as I really didn't want it hanging off the chimney but it didn't work worth a damn.
If it wasn't for all the PBS channels I get 2, 36.1, 36.2, 44.1, 44.2, 44.3, 44.4  I'd have to pay for the Discovery and History channel somehow because the regular OTA channels certainly don't offer much for my viewing  preferences.


I had a round boat antenna for a while (before they went digital) in the attic and got 2 or 3 channels and not very good. When the channels went digital it was useless.


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## semipro (Jan 17, 2012)

richg said:
			
		

> Vonage will do phone service for $17.00 per month.



We use a $40 OBI VOIP adapter and Google Voice after dropping Vonage.  We do OTA TV and a Roku with NetFlix.  We pay only for Internet (DSL) and Netflix, about $50 total a month.

We've had good luck with OTA but our situation is less demanding than the OPs.


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## Highbeam (Jan 17, 2012)

I am very similar to Semipro. All OTA and a Roku for netflix. I get DSL bundled with landline phone (no choice) for 70$ a month. 

When I cut the cord to the cable company I first tested out my OTA reception. I used the two sites to figure out which channels I could get, which direction, and how strong they were and then built my own antenna using the very public DIY antenna directions. It is seriously some scrap romex wire screwed to a scrap 2x6. I put it in the attic and pull in all stations that I should be able to get, and want, from about 40+ miles away. If attic reception was poor then I was prepared to mount it to my outside wall under the eve. These DIY antennas are flat so it would be like hanging a picture on the wall. The good news is that all my channels are high VHF and UHF so the UHF design of the DIY antenna is perfect. Good science project for the kids too. 

One benefit is that OTA broadcast is real uncompressed HD. With these new LCD TVs I have really grown fond of actual HD viewing. I still like those silly sitcoms with the laugh tracks as do the majority of the population.

Use good RG6 coax, HDMI cables, and short home runs for the best experience. I installed a media center in the attic where all of my phone lines adn coax lines come together. The antenna is right next to it. If needed, I could add an amp there too.


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## saladdin (Jan 17, 2012)

Badfish740 said:
			
		

> We're really tired of paying for lots of channels we don't watch, plus we're looking to cut spending any way we can so that my wife can stay home with our daughter instead of going back to work.  All the money we currently throw away on satellite TV could be put to much better use.  However, we do still want to be able to watch NBC/ABC/CBS shows as well as NYC media market local news and sports.  According to www.antennaweb.org this might not be possible?  Here is the information I entered:
> 
> Location: High Bridge, NJ 08829
> 
> ...




Do you have cable internet (kind that uses coaxe)?

If so, put a splitter on the cable before it goes into your modem. Run coaxe to your tv. You should get basic cable channels.

If you morally object, then forget I mentioned it.


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## firebroad (Jan 17, 2012)

I refuse to pay for TV.  I use a Channelmaster (red) with Rotor, and pick up Baltimore, Washington DC, Lancaster, Harrisburg--all about 50-70 mile radius.  Of course, I get more out in the boonies than I did when I lived in the burbs because there are not a lot of buildings bouncing the signals around me.  I fear that once my six-year old antenna system goes belly up, I will be unable to find replacement equipment, let alone someone who knows how to mount the thing.


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## mbcijim (Jan 17, 2012)

Hulu Plus plus Netflix is about $16/month.  If you want even more choices throw in an Amazon Prime for about $70/year.  Forget the antennae.  I have a Roku box ($100) that enables all this.  Most game players will work in substitute for the Roku.  I just cut all the way back to the basic plan prior to cutting the cord altogether.  Not sure how I'd watch NFL at the moment.  That's the only sport I watch.  Some of the sports have internet packages now.

We wanted to watch Christmas Vacation the other day it was $.99 on Amazon Prime and the quality was at least equal if not better than DVD.


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## SlyFerret (Jan 17, 2012)

I personally think that the old OTA local network affiliate business model is approaching a point where in no longer works.  I predict that within the next 5 years, we are going to start seeing local OTA stations shutting down because they aren't profitable anymore.

I hope I'm wrong, but as internet streaming picks up, and becomes a more viable alternative to broadcast and pay TV services, it will be harder and harder for local stations to keep bringing in add revenue.

-SF


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## Highbeam (Jan 17, 2012)

You can't get local news on netflix. We watch lots of network TV OTA air as well. How do you expect real time delivery of this media to occur other than OTA or via cable?


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## SlyFerret (Jan 18, 2012)

I didn't say I thought that it SHOULD fail, but I think the business model is broken.

The market will be forced to solve that problem when it happens.

-SF


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## Badfish740 (Jan 18, 2012)

saladdin said:
			
		

> Do you have cable internet (kind that uses coaxe)?  If so, put a splitter on the cable before it goes into your modem. Run coaxe to your tv. You should get basic cable channels.  If you morally object, then forget I mentioned it.



Currently I have DSL internet/local phone service (we'll keep the landline for 911 purposes, god forbid) through Century Link who owns the lines up here.  They bundle their services with Dish Network which I also have and loathe.  I could knock $70 off the bill just by pitching the dish, and maybe negotiate the cost of DSL/phone down from there.  The other option is the cable company, Comcast, which of course offers TV/internet/phone through one coaxial cable.  I was going to go with whoever would give me phone and internet the cheapest.  The point you raise is interesting (and I definitely don't have a moral objection :lol but I have to believe that they're smarter than that?  I'd certainly be willing to try though-it would get me NYC news-I could still use the antenna to get Philly network TV to watch the Eagles get their butts kicked :lol:  



			
				mbcijim said:
			
		

> Hulu Plus plus Netflix is about $16/month.  If you want even more choices throw in an Amazon Prime for about $70/year.  Forget the antennae.  I have a Roku box ($100) that enables all this.  Most game players will work in substitute for the Roku.  I just cut all the way back to the basic plan prior to cutting the cord altogether.  Not sure how I'd watch NFL at the moment.  That's the only sport I watch.  Some of the sports have internet packages now.  We wanted to watch Christmas Vacation the other day it was $.99 on Amazon Prime and the quality was at least equal if not better than DVD.



I get what you're saying but for right now we're looking to cut costs and ditch the subscription model entirely, and as you point out, local sports and local news are still not readily available.  I get that some people just want more choices and are willing to pay for them.  I know a guy at work who has the top of the line cable package plus a Roku with subscriptions to everything from Amazon to Hulu to who knows what.  I just want to be able to watch a couple of network shows, football, and get the weather in the morning and not pay an arm and a leg for it.  The ability to occasionally splurge on a $0.99 video from Amazon now and then in full HD on a 55" screen will be nice though, which is why I still want to go with a streaming box in addition.  A few weekends ago my SIL and her husband were over and the girls were upstairs with the baby.  We decided to watch the Top Gear Bolivia Challenge (If you haven't seen it-do so-you won't be disappointed) but since I don't have the equipment we were limited to a 17" laptop screen on the coffee table...



			
				SlyFerret said:
			
		

> I personally think that the old OTA local network affiliate business model is approaching a point where in no longer works.  I predict that within the next 5 years, we are going to start seeing local OTA stations shutting down because they aren't profitable anymore.  I hope I'm wrong, but as internet streaming picks up, and becomes a more viable alternative to broadcast and pay TV services, it will be harder and harder for local stations to keep bringing in add revenue.



I get what you're saying, but I have to believe that OTA will survive.  Cable didn't kill it and now cable is on shaky ground...  At least it better survive after I invest $200 in an antenna and pre-amp!  :lol:


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## cottonwoodsteve (Jan 29, 2012)

Ideas and suggestions that worked for us.

Two antennas may be better than rotor. No adjusting rotor between changing channels

You list UHF and VHF stations on you 3 possibilities.
Make sure you have the correct type of antenna facing the correct way.
Some are one type only and some are both UHF / VHF. 

An amplifier really helps some times. Wall wort and driver in house and amp up on antenna.
Read directions. If you plug in one before the other you can damage the system.

One trick I have done is put TV on lawn with a temporay antenna cable connection.
Have remote with you on roof, or ground and rotate mast / antenna. Do it slowly to allow the digital TV to get it's act together.
Then use the remote info button to check signal strength and look at the reception. This way you can slowly make changes in direction and watch for results on the TV. It is much easier than wife shouting "better", " worse" after you already passed the point. 

When things upgraded to digital, some stations changed antenna locations and sometimes frequency. So the old antenna pointing to the old direction may not work now.

Multiple antennas facing different directions to the exact location may help. But one antenna can suck up some of the signal from the other. So there can be good reception from both direction individually but not together. Using a reverse splitter on the mast helps this problem and joins two antennas to one one down cable.


Our house origionally had 3 antennas and an amp.
I carefully check station trandsmitter locations and frequency type (UHFor VHF)
Then I carefully did roof top changes with one antenna at a time, others not mounted even to mast.

Not we have only two antennas and no amp. But we have much better reception and more channels.

The signal will bend slightly over hills if you are not too close. Also they can reflect or be channeled by hills or buildings. So don't just blindly believe hill means no reception.


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## Whitepine2 (Jan 30, 2012)

Badfish740 said:
			
		

> We're really tired of paying for lots of channels we don't watch, plus we're looking to cut spending any way we can so that my wife can stay home with our daughter instead of going back to work.  All the money we currently throw away on satellite TV could be put to much better use.  However, we do still want to be able to watch NBC/ABC/CBS shows as well as NYC media market local news and sports.  According to www.antennaweb.org this might not be possible?  Here is the information I entered:
> 
> Location: High Bridge, NJ 08829
> 
> ...




http://current.org/ptv/ptv0821make.pdf  Check this out don't laugh I did but am using one for the upstares TV and it works easy to make and cheep it's worth a try good luck    Whitepine2


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## Agent (Jan 30, 2012)

Whitepine2 said:
			
		

> Badfish740 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I actually just made one similar to that yesterday - My version had the aluminum foil backer board.  Even just sitting sideways in my attic, I'm picking up all the channels I could with my roof antenna, but with a much steadier signal.  Now if only I could hook up a rotor...


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## Highbeam (Jan 30, 2012)

Whitepine and Agent: That is the DIY antenna that I spoke of earlier. I made one and used copper wire I had leftover from a wiring project. Bloody thing works great in my attic. It is all I've ever had for OTA TV and it worked so well in my tests that I shut off my cable service. 

There are a couple of versions of this antenna that include slightly different wisker lengths but they all look the same. Mine hangs from the ridge inside the attic for max height and least chance of interference from metal gutters and wiring at ceiling level. 

6" of ice and snow on top of a composition roof did not phase my signal.


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## TradEddie (Jan 30, 2012)

I found the analysis on tvfool to be more accurate than antennaweb, but both show that you really are out there!  I didn't realize anywhere in NJ would be so remote.
For me, the switch from Analog to Digital was fantastic.  I have an attic mounted antenna with amplifier, I pick up all stations listed into the red zone.  I'm on the wrong side of a hill, and surrounded by trees.  My total outlay was less than $100, and I haven't paid a cable bill since 2003.
I have noticed that a few feet either way, and even up *or down* can make a huge difference, optimize your setup for the channel you want to watch most.  Don't split your cable to different TVs unless you have to, use high quality cable, and if possible try different TVs because they probably have different quality tuners inside.  

TE


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## pyper (Jan 30, 2012)

Whitepine2 said:
			
		

> http://current.org/ptv/ptv0821make.pdf  Check this out don't laugh I did but am using one for the upstares TV and it works easy to make and cheep it's worth a try good luck    Whitepine2



Just a note -- that design only works (well?) for UHF -- i.e., stations higher than 12. In my parts we get VHF stations too, but that's not true everywhere. 

I've got a big antenna on a tall pole, and we get around 20 stations, depending on the weather. I'd like a rotor. It's cool that each station turns into multiple stations with DTV. Our local NBC affiliate, 4.1, is using 4.2 as a vintage TV station, showing things like the Mary Tyler Moore show. Our ABC, on 7.1, uses 7.2 to show (mainly 80's) movies. Fox just shows doppler radar on theirs. The PBS stations (we get 2 or three states) show a range of programs, especially out of prime time. 

Now I need to figure out a way to record, so my wife can see Dr. Oz. I'm thinking about a PC with a TV tuner card.


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## Weird tolkienish figure (Jan 30, 2012)

Badfish740 said:
			
		

> We're really tired of paying for lots of channels we don't watch, plus we're looking to cut spending any way we can so that my wife can stay home with our daughter instead of going back to work.  All the money we currently throw away on satellite TV could be put to much better use.  However, we do still want to be able to watch NBC/ABC/CBS shows as well as NYC media market local news and sports.  According to www.antennaweb.org this might not be possible?  Here is the information I entered:
> 
> Location: High Bridge, NJ 08829
> 
> ...



This is what angered me about getting rid of analog, analog signals propagate farther than digital. The fact was that most folks with OTA TV were poor and rural and the PTB just don't care about those people. Wait until they try to do the same thing to radio!


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## Highbeam (Jan 30, 2012)

pyper said:
			
		

> Just a note -- that design only works (well?) for UHF -- i.e., stations higher than 12. In my parts we get VHF stations too, but that's not true everywhere.



Actually, if you're going to throw that out there then we ought to discuss virtual channels and real channels. In my area, just about every virtual channel like 4,5,7,13 (the numbers that the reporters wear on their badges) are actually broadcast on high channles well into the UHF band like 35,48,50, etc. So to look at channel 4 you set your tuner to channel 50. Sort of tricky but your TV tuner probably keeps that information relatively secret. You will need to know this when selecting your antenna since as Pyper points out, some antennas are optimized to receive the VHF (2-13), some UHF (14- on up) and some can do both. The VHF antennas are the very large ones sometimes 14 feet long and wide.

The DIY coat hanger style antenna is optimized for UHF but pretty good at high band VHF (9-13). I am very happy that my local stations use mostly UHF.


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## firebroad (Jan 31, 2012)

Once you get a decent antenna set up with rotor etc, you can also boost the signal slightly with the addition on an inline booster that connects between the antenna cable and your TV.  I had a hard time picking up two of the channels without pixilation until I put one on.  You can usually find them at electronics stores.


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## pyper (Jan 31, 2012)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> So to look at channel 4 you set your tuner to channel 50. Sort of tricky but your TV tuner probably keeps that information relatively secret.



Mine does that (hides the gory details) but if you look at the listings on websites like antennaweb.org you can see where they broadcast (in addition to the display number). My 4 and 7 are really on 4 and 7. Any antenna can work for nearly any signal, if it's strong enough. Before I put up my big antenna I had just the UHF portion of it out sitting on the deck rail, and it picked up 4 well, but not 7 at all. We even thought about just putting up the UHF portion on the pole.

Speaking of analog propagating well -- my Uncle lives on a hill in Erie County, Pennsylvania. Some nights you used to be able to pick up TV from New York City. It was snowy and fuzzy and barely there, but it was there. All sorts of Canadian TV too. There were at least 50 different channels, if you spent enough time with the rotor.


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## TradEddie (Jan 31, 2012)

There is no inherent difference in signal propagation between analog and digital.  In reality, when the change was made, most stations were moved to a different frequency, many needed to buy new transmitters with different signal geometries.  A station staying on the same frequency at the same power would generate a decodable digital signal at far greater distances than the analog signal, so in order to save money and limit interference with distant stations, new power levels were calculated to achieve a similar coverage area as the old analog signal.

The changes in actual frequency and power affect everybody differently.  Pre-digital, WHYY (PBS) 12 was unwatchable for me, NBC 10 was perfect, now the PBS channel is perfect and Channel 10 often breaks up. Fair switch.

TE


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## Agent (Jan 31, 2012)

Though the signal propagation may be the same, the signal to picture ratio is very different, and that is the truly frustrating part.  Digital is essentially all or nothing for signal and picture quality, where Analog let you still view channels in reduced quality if the signal was bad.  Also, it's pretty hard to aim your antenna to find what channels you get when it takes 3 days for some channels to load (even at 75% signal strength!).


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## TradEddie (Jan 31, 2012)

Absolutely true that digital signals make it much, much more difficult to optimize an antenna location.  My TV tuner gives me just 0-7 bars to indicate quality, with no indication of whether this is signal strength, or signal quality. If you a have a lot of multipath interference, signal strength could be fine, but quality is poor. Some tuners give a percentage, which is a little more helpful.

The "cliff effect" is unfairly giving some digital broadcasts a bad name when in reality the cause is much reduced broadcast strength.  Digital signals will give perfect picture quality from signals that if analog would be totally unwatchable due to snow/static.  In my case, analog Channel 12 was transmitted at 309kW before the transition resulting in poor picture at my location, it now transmits a 20kW digital signal on the same frequency which gives a perfect picture.  If this station was still transmitting at its original strength, you could probably watch Philly TV in Pittsburgh, however you'd also have interference from every station between Boston and Norfolk.  Most VHF broadcasts were moved to a different frequency with different propagation characteristics, and the broadcasters have tried to approximate the coverage areas while minimizing interference from, and to, adjacent markets.  You can bet if it came down to price which side they chose; lower electricity bill or customer dissatisfaction from a few people who can't afford cable or satellite.

TE


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## blacktail (Feb 1, 2012)

According to antennaweb.org I can't get reception here. But I do. The previous owner of my house had the antenna and said it only got 3 or 4 channels. I hooked up my tv and get around 20 channels, although many of those are shopping, church, or spanish stations. I wonder if the previous owner got fewer channels because he didn't have a high-def tv. My reception changes a little bit from time to time. Sometimes I'll lose or add a station. For as little as I watch tv, I'll stick with it for free.


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## Weird tolkienish figure (Feb 1, 2012)

Agent said:
			
		

> Though the signal propagation may be the same, the signal to picture ratio is very different, and that is the truly frustrating part.  Digital is essentially all or nothing for signal and picture quality, where Analog let you still view channels in reduced quality if the signal was bad.  Also, it's pretty hard to aim your antenna to find what channels you get when it takes 3 days for some channels to load (even at 75% signal strength!).



I might have misspoke when I said signal propagation wasn't as lengthy with digital. But I have found multiple sources which mention that digital signal are much more susceptible to long distance attenuation and distortion. When you think about it it makes sense. Your mind can interpret a distorted analog signal, can a machine inherently interpret a distorted digital signal? Probably not.


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## TradEddie (Feb 1, 2012)

That's one part the problem, the new digital broadcast strengths were calculated to produce a decodable signal to approximately the same distance that the old analog signal got snowy, however if you were in a marginal location previously and had become tolerant of the static, chances are you can no longer get a digital picture.
The bigger part of the problem is usually frequency changes; most VHF stations were moved to UHF.  UHF works better in line of sight applications, it generally suffers less from interference, but is less able to "bend" around obstacles or over the horizon than VHF, so people located in valleys, behind trees or on the wrong side of a hill lost out.  This is what happened to me, my PBS station stayed on VHF 12 at a much lower power, yet I end up with a much better picture, my NBC station moved from VHF 10 to UHF, and since I'm over a hill from the transmitters, I now lose signal any time the wind blows.

There is a wealth of information at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=6

TE


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