# large boiler for my dad



## brian89gp (Jan 1, 2013)

My dad heats his couple greenhouses with wood, used to heat them with propane but it was running $60k plus a year to do so.  He switched to wood and now goes through 20-30 cords.  His heating now is accomplished by double barrel 55 gallon drum stoves in the smaller greenhouses and a large forced air wood furnace for the larger one.  He then has kerosene torpedo heaters to act as backup.  Problem is he is getting old and to keep the greenhouses warm through the winter he has to feed the fires ever 2 hours and by feeding the fires I mean 1 wheelbarrow full of wood per stove and two for the furnace.

I am looking to see if this can be accomplished by a wood boiler and very large storage system so that he can load up a hell of a lot of wood during the day and let it burn and the heat is used during the night.  Also a boiler that could take 4' long pieces and be loaded by a tractor to reduce the amount of cutting and lifting.

Going off of the propane heater size before the switch to wood, there are 2 smaller greenhouses and their heaters were 350k BTU each and one larger one that had 900k BTU worth of heaters.  Due to the extreme amount of work it is to keep them heated with wood he shortened some of the greenhouses so there is roughly 1 MBTU heat load total now in-between all of them.

What I was thinking:
1. Several large popane takes to act as storage.  Insulated,
2. Fan coils in each greenhouse running off the propane tanks.  The greenhouses are generally held at 40-45* so there should be a large delta for good efficiency using the fan coils and 180* tank temp.
3. Very large central wood boiler.  Not a gassifier as he burns fresh cut and somewhat green wood and I do not think that will ever change (getting 2-3 years ahead at 30 cords per year is quite a task!).  If a secondary burn stove could handle it then great, otherwise an old smoke dragon style.
4.  Would prefer if somehow the boiler could be loaded by a set of forks on the back of a tractor
5.  Boiler would have a huge firebox size to try and minimize the reloading

The heat loss is almost always during the night unless it is cloudy during the day.  Even at single digit temps if it is sunny the greenhouses generally stay warm enough.


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## flyingcow (Jan 1, 2013)

Doesn't somebody make (commercial)OWB's that are fed either by the pallet load of wood or have a set of loading doors that you can dump the wood in with a bucket? Saw it somewheres.


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## goosegunner (Jan 1, 2013)

Try to search bigburner he has a huge boiler that I believe he built.

gg


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## Fred61 (Jan 1, 2013)

I would go with a chip system. I think there was a discussion on here recently about that.


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## brian89gp (Jan 1, 2013)

Will do.  I think I saw a picture of his a while back.

Any idea's/suggestions about storage?  The required amounts are absolutely massive, a 1 MBTU load for 12 hours with a 40* delta is something like 24,000 gallons.  The two options I can think of is separate storage with fan coils or storage in the greenhouse that heats via radiation of the tank itself.


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Jan 1, 2013)

30 chord @ $90 = $2700 thats a great savings! Is he heating his home with wood also? Is it near his green houses?


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## brian89gp (Jan 1, 2013)

They live on 40 acres and get wood from the neighbors 80 acres as well so it is all free.  But can you imagine being 65 and cutting, splitting, and burning 30 cord over 4 months?

The house is heated by wood but they only go through maybe 1.5 cord a year.


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## BoilerMan (Jan 1, 2013)

90/ chord? Wish I could get one for that, I may stop cutting my own...

Wood chip, wood pellet, coal would be my research, in that order.

You'd need an awful lot of storage with a wood gasser to get any kind of off-time with that kind of heat load. 

TS


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Jan 1, 2013)

Well thats impressive! I saw a while back, a commercial log sized boiler on youtube. It was in Canada I believe. It could eat 4,8 or 12' logs.  If he hired a logger to haul out two years ahead I believe the savings of dry wood may offset the cost of logger. just a thought.


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## JP11 (Jan 1, 2013)

needs something that will load itself. 

pellets, chips, coal, like the previous poster said.

there's a happy medium there.  a price has to be applied to getting up every two hours.  Maybe buying pellets or chips isn't IDEAL compared to cheap wood.  But it's better than propane... and a single boiler would be a nice solution.

JP


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## mikefrommaine (Jan 1, 2013)

Are you sure about the heat loss. Just because there were 350k boilers doesn't mean that is the heat loss. I doubt he is outputting anywhere near that burning green wood in a 55 gallon barrel stove.

Burning green wood is a waste of time and resources. Pay someone to cut and split enough wood to get ahead a couple years. It will be the cheapest upgrade he can buy.

If you go into the night with storage up to temp and a fire going then storage won't need to be sized to last the entire night. Just the time between when the fire goes out and he wants to get up to reload.

It seems like a garn or two would be the natural choice once he decides burning green wood is a waste of time.


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## brian89gp (Jan 1, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> Are you sure about the heat loss. Just because there were 350k boilers doesn't mean that is the heat loss. I doubt he is outputting anywhere near that burning green wood in a 55 gallon barrel stove.


 
It is an uneducated guess, if anyone knows how to do a heat loss calc on a greenhouse I'll run it.   He has two of the double 55 gallon stoves along with two 60k BTU kerosene torpedo heaters (for backup and supplimental on the real cold nights) per smaller greenhouse that used to have a 350k forced air propane heater.  The stoves look like the one in the below link, they aren't efficient by any means but they do put out a large amount of heat (a heaping wheel barrow full every 2 hours...).  I've read 200-240k peak.

http://www.northlineexpress.com/dou...ID=974960795&gclid=CJm76tWUyLQCFYKPPAodPTYASQ



mikefrommaine said:


> Burning green wood is a waste of time and resources. Pay someone to cut and split enough wood to get ahead a couple years. It will be the cheapest upgrade he can buy


 
I agree and have been working on it.  100+ cords is quite a task to do.  The one thing I cannot do is put in a system that for if any reason the seasoned stuff runs out and he has to burn green and it won't work properly.




JP11 said:


> pellets, chips, coal, like the previous poster said.


 
I'll look into pellets though he would still be looking at around $10k a year for them.  Cheap is a requirement, otherwise he will continue killing himself to do it for almost free.


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## JP11 (Jan 1, 2013)

Ok.. if he's determined to use wood.. maybe a one time deal where he hires some help to get way ahead for dry wood?

ANYTHING is going to be more efficient than those 55gal drum stoves.  

Garn is sure "plug and play"  stuff it in one of the ends of a greenhouse..... and then insulate it.  Any losses in that insulation will heat that greenhouse.  Maybe store wood in the unused portion of the greenhouse you say he no longer uses?


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## mikefrommaine (Jan 1, 2013)

Greenhouse heat loss calaculator
http://www.littlegreenhouse.com/heat-calc.shtml


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## flyingcow (Jan 1, 2013)

http://www.deb-design.com/palbrsam.pdf


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## goosegunner (Jan 1, 2013)

Wood gun makes a coal unit that can be fed from a hopper.  How much longer does he want to cut wood?

gg


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## Quincy (Jan 1, 2013)

Brian check out logburner.ca these boiler are pretty cool it might be what your after.


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## Tennman (Jan 1, 2013)

So this is a revenue producing business obviously to pay 60k/yr heat costs. I'd look at 1 or more of the big Garns. Hopefully Heaterman will drop in here and chat with you. Lots of businesses, schools, etc drop in here and ask this question. Garn gets installed and they disappear. What I'd like about the Garn route is that it could be done in stages... First unit this year... Need more capacity add another..... Modularity. 

Ok HM... Fill him in.  

BTW Brian... Is affordable large amounts of firewood readily available near your dad's place?


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## Tennman (Jan 1, 2013)

Accidentally touched the New Horizons link and they also have BIG industrial boilers.


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## heaterman (Jan 1, 2013)

Tennman said:


> So this is a revenue producing business obviously to pay 60k/yr heat costs. I'd look at 1 or more of the big Garns. Hopefully Heaterman will drop in here and chat with you. Lots of businesses, schools, etc drop in here and ask this question. Garn gets installed and they disappear. What I'd like about the Garn route is that it could be done in stages... First unit this year... Need more capacity add another..... Modularity.
> 
> Ok HM... Fill him in.
> 
> BTW Brian... Is affordable large amounts of firewood readily available near your dad's place?


 
When do you want one delivered ?  We have to bring one to Ohio week after next and could throw another one on the trailer for you.

I have a couple running greenhouses and if sized right they are tailor made for that kind of work.
I noticed though that you mentioned unseasoned wood.......if he's planning on cutting in the fall and burning that winter I would probably not recommend anything but a big OWB.
He will fight with any normal downdraft gasser to no end and even in a Garn his efficiency would be reduced in short order due to creosote buildup in the flue tubes.
I do have a few guys using Garns and DD gassers that cut in the winter/early spring before the sap comes up and seem to do OK. They still fight things a bit especially with the gassers but it's far better than cutting in the summer and trying to burn it 5 months later.


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## brian89gp (Jan 1, 2013)

JP11 said:


> Ok.. if he's determined to use wood.. maybe a one time deal where he hires some help to get way ahead for dry wood?
> 
> ANYTHING is going to be more efficient than those 55gal drum stoves.
> 
> Garn is sure "plug and play" stuff it in one of the ends of a greenhouse..... and then insulate it. Any losses in that insulation will heat that greenhouse. Maybe store wood in the unused portion of the greenhouse you say he no longer uses?


 
One of the main goals is to have one place that has a fire instead of 5 (central boiler in an out building fits this bill), that has a huge firebox so that the burn time is long (so he can sleep), and be built in such a way that a machine can assist with much of the loading (because he is aging).  I'm not disagreeing that improving efficiency will help but those other three things to me are more important as it means he will live longer.  I can and will pay to have however much wood delivered that he needs at whatever cost if it comes to that, but the rest of the process needs to be simplified for his own well being.

I like the idea of pellets/chips as well as a stove that can be loaded by a bucket on a tractor.  He has access to probably 200 acres of primarily red oak woods so a cord wood stove comes out ahead in the cost benefit calculation at the added expense of less automation.



flyingcow said:


> http://www.deb-design.com/palbrsam.pdf


That is what I am looking for, hoping the guy responds with the approximate BTU output.



goosegunner said:


> Wood gun makes a coal unit that can be fed from a hopper. How much longer does he want to cut wood?


Coal is not readily available.  He has said he is going to work until he dies, I am just trying to make the work as easy as possible so he dies later rather then sooner.  



Quincy said:


> Brian check out logburner.ca these boiler are pretty cool it might be what your after


That there is hard core.  Too big probably and I doubt I can afford it.



Tennman said:


> So this is a revenue producing business obviously to pay 60k/yr heat costs. I'd look at 1 or more of the big Garns. Hopefully Heaterman will drop in here and chat with you. Lots of businesses, schools, etc drop in here and ask this question. Garn gets installed and they disappear. What I'd like about the Garn route is that it could be done in stages... First unit this year... Need more capacity add another..... Modularity.


 
About 8 years ago he had a furnace go out while on vacation and everything froze.  So, $50k+ fuel bill and zero income.  Then a forest fire flared up a couple years later and burned everything (each sheet of plastic runs $2000+) His business used to be much larger but due to the string of unfortunate events he is making a profit but not anything near what it used to be.  He realistically isn't going to do anything else and is too stubborn to give up so I am on a mission to make what he is going to continue doing anyways easier.  Most everything that will be bought will be bought by me and I do alright but am far from rich.




Tennman said:


> BTW Brian... Is affordable large amounts of firewood readily available near your dad's place?


110 aces of primarly red oak in the family, and access to another 80 acres that is regularly thinned for cattle.  There is plenty of wood and I can do a good part of the processing but I live several hours away and cannot help with the day to day burning operation.


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## fuelfarmer (Jan 1, 2013)

Take a look at wood chip burners. I am running a 500,000 btu chip burner from LEI Products to help heat a barn. The unit has a gas burner to start the woods chips burning and the 400,000 btu gas burner will also work as back up heat if you run out of chips. With auto start and shut down storage is not that important.

video clip


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## JP11 (Jan 1, 2013)

Quincy said:


> Brian check out logburner.ca these boiler are pretty cool it might be what your after.


 
Watched the videos..   Sure doesn't look super efficient.. being that it would be outside.  But if you had wood to burn.. or chips or about anything..   can't get much less work involved.


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## brian89gp (Jan 1, 2013)

heaterman said:


> I have a couple running greenhouses and if sized right they are tailor made for that kind of work.
> I noticed though that you mentioned unseasoned wood.......if he's planning on cutting in the fall and burning that winter I would probably not recommend anything but a big OWB.
> He will fight with any normal downdraft gasser to no end and even in a Garn his efficiency would be reduced in short order due to creosote buildup in the flue tubes.


 
Its not really the plan, but more of necessity.  No fire means total loss and no income so it is a struggle to just keep up but I am hoping to get him a stockpile of seasoned wood going on.  The green wood I speak of is usually blow down or cut down from the previous year, but from there it is direct from the saw to the stove.  Not horribly green but not seasoned either.


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## Fred61 (Jan 1, 2013)

Chips are the most difficult bio fuel to handle on a small scale and the easiest to handle on a large scale such as yours.


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## JustWood (Jan 1, 2013)

My uncle has a 20,000 sq. ft. pallet shop he heats with one of these. No insulation and the doors are opened and closed all day.
http://www.biomasscombustion.com/
They burn about 1/3 cord of thin pallet boards during an 8 hour shift.
It's warm enough in the building I've seen the guys working in sweatshirts at 0 degrees outside.
The blowers on his move air a long way across his building which may work well in long greenhouses.
If you can source some cheap/free scrapwood it may be an option.


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## ewdudley (Jan 2, 2013)

brian89gp said:


> Coal is not readily available.  He has said he is going to work until he dies, I am just trying to make the work as easy as possible so he dies later rather then sooner.


But coal is readily available.  You would be buying by the trailer load, just pick up the phone and tell them where you want it delivered. Economical, easy to store, easy to handle.


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## Hansson (Jan 2, 2013)

Go wood chip!
Froling have a nice wood chip boiler.
http://www.froeling.com/se/products/wood-chip-g-150-kw/froling-tx-150.html
Or maybe ETA
http://www.eta.co.at/15.0.html?&L=1


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## BoilerBob (Jan 2, 2013)

http://youtu.be/MF1fOb51Z3E 
Link to chip boiler
I agree with Hansson, go wood chip.

PC


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## BoilerBob (Jan 2, 2013)

I agree, Froling has a nice wood chip boiler


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## rcollman (Jan 2, 2013)

ewdudley said:


> But coal is readily available. You would be buying by the trailer load, just pick up the phone and tell them where you want it delivered. Economical, easy to store, easy to handle.


 
I would do wood chips if I had to heat several greenhouses.  I would either  buy a chipper or have someone turn my "free" wood into chips. Or buy it by the truckload once real old age kicks in  

I burned  cord wood for  about 5 years, then switched to hard coal for about 3 years and went back to wood.   I liked the BTU output per unit of handling of coal and the no fooling, all night burn compared to wood.  However,  coal ash is nothing like wood ash.   Getting rid of it,involved 10 or more times the handling (and volume) than wood ash and I had to take it to a landfill instead of the garden or lawn.

My airtight Solo 40 uses 60% or so of the wood my other boilder used,.  I looked into bricks instead of cord wood on the price side this fall.   Roughly speaking, when a real cord costs me $230 split reasonably and delivered, sawdust bricks were over twice that cost per BTU.  I believe pellets would be about the same.  Of course less storage area, no bugs, no moisture worries and if you can move around a 1 ton pallets, no handling to speak of for the bricks.  My wife suggested I figure out propane to make me feel good.  That was  4 times the cost of cord woood and made bricks seem like a good deal.   So there is hope when I get older, or my wife does not have me around. Just saying...


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## bigburner (Jan 2, 2013)

Some buddy type in Big Burner?? I own a chipper and would like to burn both chips and logs,  the chips would be a great ways to keep things at a steady output. my situation would require the chips to be dropped in the same combustion area as the logs. Only wood for now.  Green house suggestions: Buy the biggest OWB you can find, add as much storage as you can find 3 / 4 thousand gallons. [Assume AHU]s ] Open or closed system guess it depends on wallet either will work fine with proper water & design [do not use any heat exchangers if possible]  sequence of operation have dad start firing in the after noon and start charging the storage and keep it burning hot this will allow for less quality wood. if there was room I would line the burn chamber with fire brick, this could increase efficiency & will operate more like a batch boiler. I would operate the AHU with as low as water temps, as set point will allow. Fans running continuous and tempering water temps with a delta t pump. This set up is nothing that I would do for my self and most likely wouldn't recommend it to my customers either, but sounds like simple simple simple, is better for dad, open the door - add wood.


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## brian89gp (Jan 2, 2013)

A batch heater is what I had in mind but could not think of the term. Simple (for him) is indeed what I am after. The chip and pellet burners fit the requirements too but I need to look into the financial feasibility of them. If efficiency can be had while keeping it simple then I am all for it, such as adding secondary burn tubes to the boiler since they seem pretty foolproof or a forced draft system. I can see some good possibilities in a secondary burn system in addition to a auto damper forced draft fan that is based on water temp while keeping it relativity simple.

Do you have any suggestions for very large OWB? I liked the look of the DIY pallet burner linked to on the first page with the absolutely huge firebox, load it once to the gills and just let it go. Should I be going more for an open or closed system?

I will start reading about AHU and delta t pumps. I am waiting on him to get me the sizes of the greenhouses so I can run the heat loss calc.

I am open to the idea of a gassifier and other methods as long as they are simple.


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## brian89gp (Jan 2, 2013)

The small greenhouses are 223k BTU according to the heat calc link earlier in this thread. There are two of those and then one other that takes less then 200k

24' x 100', 8' tall, 30' linear pipe in arch. -10* outside and 45* inside design temps.



He has 3 small ones in total and can probably convert what is left of the larger one (fire destroyed it) for summer use only and/or use the forced air outdoor burner he already has to heat it for seedlings or other plants that need high temperatures for short periods of time.

So design size for boiler would be 446k BTU output minimum but it would be nice to be at 669k BTU if it can be accomplished with minimal cost increase over the 446k so he could heat all three of the smaller greenhouses with it.


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## fuelfarmer (Jan 2, 2013)

Just to make a point I like to tell people you can spend $1000 on a heater and $50,000 on fuel, or $50,000 on a heater and $1000 on fuel. It is your choice. That is not exactly true, but the cost of a biomass systems is big up front. Over time it will save a lot of money. And time will happen either way, so why not prepare to save.

A friend reminded me of this. Remember Dr Pepper time? You were to drink a Dr Pepper at 10, 2 ,and 4 o'clock. When it comes to feeding a large outdoor boiler to heat a big project just remember 10, 2 and 4 o'clock or something like that. And 10, 2,and 4 happens twice a day.


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## brian89gp (Jan 2, 2013)

fuelfarmer said:


> Just to make a point I like to tell people you can spend $1000 on a heater and $50,000 on fuel, or $50,000 on a heater and $1000 on fuel. It is your choice.


 
Point taken.

He is 63 and likely won't be able to do this for more then 10-15 more years.  The upfront cost of efficiency would would need to be paid back in that time frame to make it worth it.


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## aussiedog3 (Jan 2, 2013)

TheLogBoiler  "The Log Boss"  Maybe worth checking it out.  Saw some advertising for it in the area.  Actually saw one for sale in the parking lot at a country meat market.
Can be loaded with about 4' logs from the top on the side, firebox looks to be 500 gallon propane tank.
I would think it would burn a long, long time if you loaded this pooch to the gills.
I don't know anybody that has any experience with them but looks to be built for commercial applications.
Now that I think about it, it may have been developed by greenhouse operators because there are a ton of greenhouses in the area where I saw it for sale.
It was northeast of Zeeland, Michigan and northwest of Hudsonville, Michigan


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## mikefrommaine (Jan 3, 2013)

brian89gp said:


> Point taken.
> 
> He is 63 and likely won't be able to do this for more then 10-15 more years.  The upfront cost of efficiency would would need to be paid back in that time frame to make it worth it.



A typical OWB will have very little resale value after 10 years. A garn would still be worth something to sell.


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## flyingcow (Jan 3, 2013)

http://thelogboiler.com/

Beast......


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## Fred61 (Jan 3, 2013)

flyingcow said:


> Beast......



I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole


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## flyingcow (Jan 3, 2013)

Fred61 said:


> I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole


 

Funny you said that, because it burns 8ft poles with ease.


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## Bob Rohr (Jan 3, 2013)

I like the concept of these large round bale boilers.  In my area of SW Missouri their seems to be plenty of old bales rotting in the fields that could be used for fuel.  I'm not sure if anyone has built one of these in the US, but it probably could be fabricated by most any metal shop that builds tanks.


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Jan 3, 2013)

Thats the Log Burner I saw awhile back! Thought it would be a good solution. My initial thought was that loading would be easier with a tractor or a picker. I work with equipment operators routinely and many operate equipment well into there 80's. I figured if Dad cant run the tractor or picker Im guessing that running the Greenhouse would be difficult also. Would love to hear some feed back of these units from users.


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## Fred61 (Jan 3, 2013)

flyingcow said:


> Funny you said that, because it burns 8ft poles with ease.


 
See, I'm two feet too long


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## brian89gp (Jan 3, 2013)

Those are some monster wood burners.

I am going to work on improving heating effiency of the greenhouses this year with the possibility of changing the heat source up this next winter but more then likely the one after.  Throwing another sheet of plastic up and inflating it should drop the heat load at design temps (-10*) to 130k per greenhouse.  Normal overnight temps only get below 10* for a couple weeks and heat load at that temp is around 85k per greenhouse.


I have narrowed it to three types of possibilities.  Coal is out due to delivery costs and the chip system doesn't compete will with the price of pellets here.

1.  Pellet boiler
2.  A large batch burner boiler, inefficient when it comes to using a lot of wood but time savings by not having to split and cut nearly as much.  Minimal storage.
3.  A large gassifier with huge storage.  It is a distant 3rd, but still in the running.


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## goosegunner (Jan 3, 2013)

brian89gp said:


> Those are some monster wood burners.
> 
> I am going to work on improving heating effiency of the greenhouses this year with the possibility of changing the heat source up this next winter but more then likely the one after. Throwing another sheet of plastic up and inflating it should drop the heat load at design temps (-10*) to 130k per greenhouse. Normal overnight temps only get below 10* for a couple weeks and heat load at that temp is around 85k per greenhouse.
> 
> ...


 

Seems like a Garn with extra storage would be pretty nice.  I have found 1000 gallon propane tanks for as low as $100. You could have storage in each greenhouse plus the capacity of the Garn. It would a least let him sleep for a while.

If you think wood moisture could be an issue. Maybe Large OWB with storage in each greenhouse.

gg


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## peakbagger (Jan 3, 2013)

If this is commerical application make sure you check that you dont inadvertently turin into a permitted source. Having to deal with air permitting is not something I would wish on anyone.

 Dick Hill years ago desing a big version of his wood furnace for the state forest nursery greenhouse in Maine. It had a huge storage tank. Unfortunatley it really required a boilr tender to feed the darn thing whne it was running. I think 60 pounds every 20 minutes.  Might be worth checking with "Tom in Maine" to see if he knows of any reports on that set up.


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## BoilerMan (Jan 3, 2013)

That bio-burner looks super-sweet!  If you dad has some equiptment then it seems quite feasable, wouls need a tractor and a wood chipper for that oak.  30 chord is ALOT of wood to handle.

TS


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## singe (Jan 4, 2013)

Hi Brian, just thought I would stick my fillings in here as this thread is quite close to home for me in many ways- I heat a smallish 30' x50' polytunnel in the pennines in england, its pretty cold and miserable up here, I keep just under 7000 us gal of water in pools between 74-80f to grow coral and breed tropical marine fish, It cant get cold or they are dead! The tunnel is double skinned with air blown between to act as insulation which makes a big difference. At the moment I'm running a 25kw eko orlan gasser with 300gal of storage (the pools themselves also act as storage) I insulate everything and cover the pools at night but its a struggle, I burn whatever I can get my hands on, sofwood blocks from pallet making, hardwood and softwood logs, rarely as dry as they should be and coal in emergencys when the wood is really wet. I load every couple of hours in the daytime, still its 5x more efficient than when I used barrel stoves!

I Need a bigger boiler and something that will burn whatever I can get hold of and burn it well- my choice for an upgrade is a FARM 2000, I think they export to the states, they are very very well made, my father in law has one as do quite a few tight farmers around me!, they are pretty efficient upwards gassifiers (the primary and secondary air mix are altered over the burntime), simple, and the bigger models such as the HT80 have a firebox thats 8ft long and 4ft wide so you can load them easy with a couple of pallets of wood on a forklift, they will burn whatever you throw in basically, wet or dry and its very easy to clean the exchangers if your using sunbstandard fuel, that said the time you would save loading and chopping you could start to get a head with the fuel storage- if youve a well ventilated polytunnel or greenhouse to stack your wood you can get oak splits pretty damn dry in a year.

Im a slave to my boiler at the moment in winter and ive worked out just changing to a 4.5ft by 2.2ft firebox (ht 45 model) I could load just twice in 24 hours, with bigger bits of wood and save over 2 weeks in time (normal working days) over a heating season !! obviously I undersized massivly at the start but the business has evolved and grown.

just my thoughts...


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## brian89gp (Jan 4, 2013)

singe said:


> It cant get cold or they are dead!





singe said:


> Im a slave to my boiler at the moment in winter


 
Gives whole new meaning to redundancy and double checking doesn't it?



goosegunner said:


> Seems like a Garn with extra storage would be pretty nice


 
For gassifiers the Garn is on the top of the list. The amount of heat required looks to be making the OWB option less likely


goosegunner said:


> You could have storage in each greenhouse plus the capacity of the Garn


 
I was contemplating something along those lines. If there is enough tanks in each greenhouse then the greenhouse could probably be heated by radiant heat comming off of the tank which would eliminate the need for fan coils and fans (and by proxy the power needed to run the fans which is usefull during power outages). The one thing I haven't figured out about that yet is the efficiency of doing it that way. The greenhouses only need heat when it is not sunny even on days that it is -10 outside, so any leftover heat in the tanks in the greenhouse that lasts to the next day is essentially wasted. Granted it will warm the greenhouse still, but the greenhouse didn't need to be warmed. I was hoping to keep the storage properly sized so that fully heated it would run out of heat in around 12 hours. The whole question on what to do with excess heat that runs into the next (sunny) day is why I was thinking of fan coils as heat can be stored in insulated tanks and used when needed. There are losses, but not as much, as there is an actual call for heat.


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## flyingcow (Jan 4, 2013)

brian,  if you go with a Garn you really need seasoned wood. seasoned at least a year IMO. You've stated that getting a yrs wood ahead is not in the plan. Maybe the plan has changed.

FWIW- I have a dairy farmer that burns between 50 to 60 cord a year. He's as stubborn as they come. He has a Royal OWB.


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## brian89gp (Jan 4, 2013)

flyingcow said:


> Maybe the plan has changed


 
I might be able to convince him to change the plan if the benefits of a gassifier such as the Garn are appealing enough, such as sleep or being able to venture away from the wood pile for more then a few hours to actually do some work.

Similar results could be had from an OWB as well, just by different means. Instead of saving time by reducing the amount of wood he would save time by the amount of processing required for said wood.

Just gathering good options to present. That Royal 6490 looks like a possibility.  Which model does your dairy farmer have and how long does he get on a burn between reloads?


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## flyingcow (Jan 5, 2013)

I'm not sure which one he has. It's a pressurized unit. Doesn't look any better than any other OWB. Not sure how long between loads. Not very long.


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## goosegunner (Jan 5, 2013)

I would do some more searching,  Heaterman posted about his findings with a very large central boiler that performed very poorly for heat output vs consumption at a dairy farm.  It would be similar in that the load was very large. It burned at a high rate but btu transfer was really bad.

There is also another user here with a royal outdoor that has expressed very high wood consumption even with dry wood for his residential setting.

gg


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## bigburner (Jan 5, 2013)

The Farm 2000, this Idea should catch better, not sure why it hasn't. This has a large combustion chamber and will do a form of updraft gassification during the middle of the burn cycle, it's not needed at the end. These units allow for large logs, higher moisture and little or no creosote. I didn't know they were sold in the US. I used some ideas from them when setting up my unit. I have never seen one in person but I know that mine will [from a layer of coals in the bottom] turn 2 or 3 big wheel barrows full of wood in to a glowing mass in an hours or so. [then fan shuts off] I have rail road tracks in the back to protect the back wall, these will become red hot in an hour +/-. My point is - updraft gasification is real and it works. the negative is, it looses on start up [delay] . the positive is load and walk away. Get Dad this one.


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## flyingcow (Jan 5, 2013)

brian, I wasn't endorsing the Royal unit. It's a typical OWB. My vote is for the Garn.

But with your btu needs, can you make use of storage? can you batch burn a big enough btu output to charge a large battery of water to go for another 12 hours just on storage?


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## wrightk20 (Jan 5, 2013)

The garn sure would be an easy plug and play deal. An owb sized for the load you have would end up using more wood than you already are. Possibly close to double the amount. I would think radiant heat in those greenhouses would be a good setup to look into. Either with insulating the floor and putting tubing down or possibly using some cast iron radiators so that you could use your stored water down to 100*F or less. The hanging modine heaters don't seem to work to well with water temp less than 130-140. The Garn would be an easy choice for me in your situation. Kevin


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## brian89gp (Jan 5, 2013)

goosegunner said:


> Heaterman posted about his findings with a very large central boiler that performed very poorly for heat output vs consumption at a dairy farm


 
I have been talking with him separately and he has mentioned this.



bigburner said:


> The Farm 2000, this Idea should catch better, not sure why it hasn't





singe said:


> my choice for an upgrade is a FARM 2000


 
I'll do some research into this



flyingcow said:


> brian, I wasn't endorsing the Royal unit. It's a typical OWB. My vote is for the Garn


 
I know you weren't.  I just hadn't been able to find a large unit on my own research, nothing else.  The pricing is close between the large Royal and a Garn anyways.



wrightk20 said:


> The garn sure would be an easy plug and play deal. An owb sized for the load you have would end up using more wood than you already are


 
A Garn or a pellet boiler are my first choice too.  Even though I don't have a unit, I am a die hard believer in a gassification boiler and it was in fact why I signed up 5 years ago to this site.  Me personally, I would never own a OWB, but I am doing research for someone else and have to take their habits that may be hard to break into consideration.  My girlfriend brought up a good point last night too, the OWB can take huge pieces of wood and burn them somewhat unseasoned but over the comming years the size of pieces my dad can handle will get smaller and smaller until they are the seasoned split size so why not just skip the middle and go with seasoned splits and get a Garn.


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## brian89gp (Jan 5, 2013)

flyingcow said:


> But with your btu needs, can you make use of storage? can you batch burn a big enough btu output to charge a large battery of water to go for another 12 hours just on storage?


 
Yes. The storage setup is complicated by the fact that there is only a heating need during the night. If it is reasonably sunny during the day there is enough solar heat gain to keep the greenhouse warm even if it is -10 outside. Also add to the fact that anything that can corrode will corrode on very short order if put inside the greenhouse due to the constant 80%+ humidity and the fertilizers in the water (types of salt typically...).

Most definitely if the storage is insulated as then any extra heat from overnight can be saved (less losses) for the next night. The Garn is nice in that it has a decent amount of storage built in. The downside is that it requires working pumps, fan coils, and piping systems to deliver the heat on demand and should you go to sleep with the trust that they will work through the night and they don't you just lost a lot of product in the matter of a couple hours and until the next year you have no hope of recovering.  Plant sales are seasonal, you miss the target date for delivery (by needing to start over) and you don't have a market to sell it to so you got to wait until the next year.  Double or triple redundancy would be required as well as backup power of some sort.

If going with a storage inside the greenhouse to heat via radiation off of the tank, as long as corrosion on the outside surface and proper sizing is done then it should work. Having the tank at 140* into the daylight hours just wastes the heat and the wood required to produce it. I would love to go this route because it means short of your tank bursting as long as the tank is up to temp you can be assured that the greenhouse will be warm for the next XX hours. No pumps to fail, no fans to fail, no worry of electrical loss, etc. Just have to figure out the the right right water temps for the overnight lows so that the heat isn't wasted heating the greenhouse during the sunlight hours.


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## wrightk20 (Jan 5, 2013)

The amount of electric load that it would take to run a Garn, pumps, and fans would be minimal. A small generator could easily supply power to the system to keep everything working. Sounds like you would need maybe some sort of system to alert you when temps in each greenhouse got down to a certain temp. Then it would give you time to either start a generator or change a failed pump or fan to get things back into operation. I just don't think that one big tank in each green house uninsulated would give you a controlled temperature that you would be looking for. Kevin


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## brian89gp (Jan 5, 2013)

I was leaning on the side of fan coils and a generator too, easier to control and deliver the right amount of heat and not waste wood.  4A per fan coil (pump and fan), 2 fan coils per greenhouse, and 3 greenhouses.  3000W for the pumps and fans then whatever for the boiler, enough for a standard 4500/5000W generator to run so you are right.

Gotta run the cost of using long fin tubes vs the fan coil, I would imagine that a couple 100' runs of fin tube would be enough heat but need to run the calculations first.  Would reduce the number of moving parts and electrical load which is never a bad thing.


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## wrightk20 (Jan 5, 2013)

I agree that some sort of radiant heat would be best. You would be able to use more of your stored heat if sized correctly. Kevin


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## flyingcow (Jan 5, 2013)

You got alot to figure out Brian. Interesting, especially when you throw in the fact of one bad night ruins the season. The old barrel stoves don't break down.


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## brian89gp (Jan 5, 2013)

Using 3-400 linear foot of fin tube to provide pump redundancy should also give the required BTU down to water temps at or below 140*, gives a storage system a lot of room to flex its muscles.  Two pumps per greenhouse each driving half of the fin tube for redundancy.  Something tells me that amount of fin tube is not as cheap as a fan coil and fan though.

How would I go about controlling a system like this?  Constant on pump with a mixing valve?  Any electronics need to either be water and humidity proof or outside of the greenhouse.  The system would probably have antifreeze in it.



flyingcow said:


> The old barrel stoves don't break down


 
Indeed they don't.  And as a bonus they eat so much wood that you get to double check on them at least once every 2 hours


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## brian89gp (Jan 5, 2013)

Well, it looks as if my mom is gonna talk some sense into him about downsizing and having a realistic amount of work to keep up with, one greenhouse most likely, two tops.  Pellet is unlikely due to the ongoing yearly fuel cost where as wood is free.  Due to downsizing the demand I would be able to catch up and get several years ahead on the firewood collecting and seasoning.  Boiler is still preferred over forced air due to the heat storage capabilities of water.  So it looks like 130k most likely with a possibility of 260k.


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## heaterman (Jan 6, 2013)

brian89gp said:


> I was leaning on the side of fan coils and a generator too, easier to control and deliver the right amount of heat and not waste wood. 4A per fan coil (pump and fan), 2 fan coils per greenhouse, and 3 greenhouses. 3000W for the pumps and fans then whatever for the boiler, enough for a standard 4500/5000W generator to run so you are right.
> 
> Gotta run the cost of using long fin tubes vs the fan coil, I would imagine that a couple 100' runs of fin tube would be enough heat but need to run the calculations first. Would reduce the number of moving parts and electrical load which is never a bad thing.


 
I think you'd probably be better off with the fan coils than baseboard in your application. 100' of baseboard @ 180 is going to average about 50-60,000btu's output. 200 feet would not pump out what you need plus BB would really restrict your operating temperature range.


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