# dutchwest 2479 WORST STOVE EVER



## ecocavalier02 (Oct 20, 2009)

Ive been fighting with this stove now for 2 and a half years. I've read everything on this site and tried everything. Just can't take anymore. If anyone has any new suggestions to try please shed some light. Also my wood has been split and drying for 2 YEARS and is super dry.. Im more than likely looking for a new stove. any suggestions?


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## madrone (Oct 20, 2009)

describe your symptoms, and setup, especially chimney.


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## ecocavalier02 (Oct 20, 2009)

have about a 24 foot inside chimney that i lined. 3 foot section inside the room with one elbow in to a tee. Sometimes i can get it t work and other time i have to screw around with it until ive burn threw  the freaking wood. about 75 percent of the time i have to screw around with it for 3 hours. Not suitable before i go t work at 630 in morning. just been an ongoing battle.


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## Rob From Wisconsin (Oct 20, 2009)

What kind of wood are you using (species)?


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## ecocavalier02 (Oct 20, 2009)

Oak and maple


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## Fsappo (Oct 20, 2009)

But it's made by Vermont Castings, they were good back in the 80's.  What did your dealer say who you bought the stove from?  Did you have them out to look it over?


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## stockcarver (Oct 20, 2009)

"But it’s made by Vermont Castings, they were good back in the 80’s. "

 (grin) This is true only if you compare it to a very cheap potbelly...

The Federal line in my experience is a good example of a marketing gimmick, I fell for it back in 87. The internet was not yet available, and the numerous magazine advertisements made it sound like a real breakthrough in wood burning technology, so I ordered one by mail. NOW the internet is opening our eyes to real technology and user experience, and I have a chance to tell others of my experience.

The statistics and wonderful claims of burn efficiency, airtightness, etc. may have been reached in a lab enviornment for one burn, but in real life, the federal is a joke, this was my experience as an owner. 
As I recall the castings on mine were chinese, and there are a ridiculous number of parts held together with cement, cheap stove bolts and screws.  The Federal is a classic "chinese puzzle", warpage is going to happen, and near impossible to seal airtight. The firebox is unable to hold much more than a load of kindling. On the other hand, a small load of wood in a Federal is a good thing, preventing the stove from cracking wide open from an uncontrollable fire. Customer support told me it was my fault for burning it incorrectly (Note to self- my fault for burning it at all.)
If you want a somewhat attractive stove to sit in the house and look nice, this is OK. If you want to burn wood for reliable heat, bitter dissapointment is yours until you are rid of it. 
If you want to light a fire and leave it unattended without nagging doubt, buy a blaze king. Here again, I am speaking from personal experience. You can try to save money and buy a cheaper stove, but when you finally get past the pain of spending the money, you will never look back. Try and find a B-K owner that uses it and regrets the purchase.


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## Highbeam (Oct 20, 2009)

Rather than try to find an unhappy BK owner, try and find a happy VC owner. I should say a happy current VC owner, they're all happy after ditching the VC. 

Is the DW in question a cat stove?


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## ecocavalier02 (Oct 20, 2009)

Its a non cat. I don't know what to do its pretty frustratng and spent a lot of money on this thing.


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## trailblaze (Oct 20, 2009)

they are tricky!

i still don't know what problems you have. 

is it not getting hot enough to close the main damper and engage the everburn?  is it over firing? 

i'm getting a good 8-10 hour burn between loads out of my med DW non-cat stove.  granted, the burn is not "hot" enough as per the stove pipe temp (300-400 when damper is closed) and usually it falls to 200 after a awhile and by the time i load it it's 100-150 but there is not any wood left then...just hot ash.  but hey it puts out heat and when i load it again i burn it hot to "clean" out any creosote that may have been starting to build up at low temps. 

just this weekend i kept a small fire going (one log at a time) all day.  never got really hot and i'm not worried about creosote.  

had the chimney cleaned last yr after 1 burn season and the sweep told me it was not needed.... just ever so slightly built up.


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## ecocavalier02 (Oct 20, 2009)

thats about the same thing that happens to me. But it seems as for all the stuff i've seen that it should have no smoke coming out the chimney. and the rumble usually stalls after a few minutes then drops down to the 200 or 300 hundred range. bout 500 internal. if i play with it constantly i can get it to go and it will burn at like 700 to 1000 range internal and thats how it should run if your getting an everburn. but its a lot a lot a lot of freaking work to get it there poking the logs 500 times. and this is with a huggggge coal bed.


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## ecocavalier02 (Oct 20, 2009)

im also reading now from something burningislove wrote. If you stuff coals in throat of the shoe thats ok but to stuff wood right in front of it will choke it. Thats something i do is shove it right in front. and i stack in it in pretty tight. maybe ill try that.


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## Bigg_Redd (Oct 20, 2009)

ecocavalier02 said:
			
		

> Dutchwest 2479 WORST STOVE EVER



Agreed.  

Even a soapstone stove is not worse.


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## Bigg_Redd (Oct 20, 2009)

ecocavalier02 said:
			
		

> Its a non cat. *I don't know what to do* its pretty frustratng and spent a lot of money on this thing.



Lemme help:  Sh_tcan it.


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## trailblaze (Oct 21, 2009)

ecocavalier02 said:
			
		

> im also reading now from something burningislove wrote. If you stuff coals in throat of the shoe thats ok but to stuff wood right in front of it will choke it. Thats something i do is shove it right in front. and i stack in it in pretty tight. maybe ill try that.



right... i also stopped "scraping out" my ash in the bottom all  time.   i let it fall naturally by just ever so slightly poking the hot coals around.  load it up, but not tight against the "shoe" and let it go for about 10-15 mins on like 50-80 % air or until it's all lit and then i close the damper.  

i found not cleaning the ash out to be helpful.  it's a balance thing... cause if you don't clean it at all then you get too much in there... so find a perfect medium.


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## trailblaze (Oct 21, 2009)

Bigg_Redd said:
			
		

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thats not easy to do once one spends serious money on a stove. 


it just takes a learning curve. 

if a person can't drive a stick shift should they take it to the scrap yard???


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## webbie (Oct 21, 2009)

Did you read Trader Gordos Manifestos and watch his video?
No doubt the downdraft system is different than most and takes some experience.

Videos at bottom of this page:
http://www.gordosoft.com/woodstove/
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/Downdraft_Stove_Operation/

also do an advanced forum search on member name tradergordo

lots of info.


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## ecocavalier02 (Oct 21, 2009)

oh yes ive read everything and seen all the videos multiple times. thinking i missed something every-time. like i said its been a real fight. hours ive spent reading all the the threads watching the videos over over. Trying a flue damper thinking to much drafter. tons and tons of fighting. been a real joy let me tell you.


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## Bigg_Redd (Oct 21, 2009)

trailblaze said:
			
		

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After two years?  Yes.


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## ecocavalier02 (Oct 21, 2009)

well for this year know choice but to keep it. wifey won't let me can it yet. But i really want to start researching a new stove. Not sure if i want to go with a cat stove yet. But what are some good suggestions   on a everburn stove or cat stove i really want to resarch this hard this time. I'm not real sure how the cat stove works yet but would like to hear some good ideas.


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## BurningIsLove (Oct 21, 2009)

Sorry to hear its being such a pain, I know exactly what you're going through.  

What is the outdoor temp/pressure for the ones you've had this year?  I havent lit mine yet this season as I still need to sweep the chimney from last season and replace a few gaskets, paint it, and other scheduled maintenance tasks first.  But I do recall in temps above 35, the temp/pressure differential is too small to get an effective draft going which as you've read 100x, is critical to this stove working in it's optimal zone.

I'll admit, if something serious on mine breaks/wears out, which most likely will be the refractory material, I likely will not repair/replace parts and I will replace the whole stove.  I'm rather tired of the constant monitoring this stove requires over others that I've used in the past.


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## ecocavalier02 (Oct 21, 2009)

Well t was little warmer bow that think bout uit. Prob low 40s I'm waiting for thje colder weather to see what happens. But next ye*r I'm almost positive I'm buying a new stove. The bk looks bpretty tempting.


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## stockcarver (Oct 21, 2009)

I don't think anyone expects you to literally throw your stove into the dump. You can sell it to someone and re-coup at least part of your money. It really hurts to fork out several thousand dollars for a blaze King, but you won't regret it for long. On the other hand, if you only want to take the chill off now and again, or only need heat for a few hours a night, there are a lot more options available. Check Craigslist for a good idea of what doesn't work for other people, a blaze king with cat is a rare bird there.


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## firefighterjake (Oct 21, 2009)

ecocavalier02 said:
			
		

> well for this year know choice but to keep it. wifey won't let me can it yet. But i really want to start researching a new stove. Not sure if i want to go with a cat stove yet. But what are some good suggestions   on a everburn stove or cat stove i really want to resarch this hard this time. I'm not real sure how the cat stove works yet but would like to hear some good ideas.



My personal opinion . . . I would rather get a stove that I liked . . . a stove that worked for me and my needs . . . a stove that gave me some good, reliable heat . . . than to try to get by with a stove that has been and continues to be a pain to use.

Sure, it may cost a little more money now . . . but the pain in the pocket now would be offset by the joy that would come from a woodstove that works well.

Don't just toss the stove on the junk pile . . . but take advantage of the fact that this is the time of year when folks (many clueless) are looking to buy used stoves . . . as evil as it sounds . . . sell the stove . . . and apply that money to a new stove . . . and be sure to take advantage of the 30% tax credit to boot. 

And as for me personally . . . if I were to go with a cat stove in my own mind there are only two choices: Blaze King and Woodstock. I personally find the BKs ugly looking, but love the figures I've hearing for long burn times . . . and I don't really care for the ornate styling of the Woodstocks . . . but again, that's a very personal thing.

Again, just my opinion.


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## efoyt (Oct 21, 2009)

Does your stove have everburn?  If so I think I can help.


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## trailblaze (Oct 21, 2009)

i'm still not sure what problems the original poster is having....someone fill me in cause i might be blind and missed the post.


Are you having over fire problems?  

they can be common with these stoves.  i had to add an in flu damper.  modify the secondary air intake and fiddle with both to make the stove work.


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## ecocavalier02 (Oct 21, 2009)

The stove is just a real pain to get it to do what its suppose to do. LOTS of fighting. just cant seem to get it to everburn. it'll go for a minute then crash. HUGE coal bed. and really letting it get hot before closing the damper. Futzing with the wood to get it just right. it just kills me to see all that smoke comin out the chimney when i know this thing is able to burn efficent. And the heat output is far better when its burning the secondary burn mode. I would jsut like to have efficient stove thats doesn't need babysitting. i mean this thing has put me through hell trying to get it to work right. My wife thinks i'm nuts. ha but if i know somethings not doing what it's suppose to do it drives me crazy and i lay in bed wondering if the temps drop. and getting out of bed to frig around with it in my underwear at midnight. not fun. 


Dont know if a blaze king would work. 8" flue. i can only fit a 6 inch liner in my chimney..


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## BurningIsLove (Oct 21, 2009)

trailblaze said:
			
		

> i'm still not sure what problems the original poster is having....someone fill me in cause i might be blind and missed the post.
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It sounds to me like the classic everburn 'stall', which is the bane of this particular stove.  You can built 10 fires with the exact same wood from the same rack of seasoned hardwoods with the same coal bed depths, split orientation, etc. etc. etc.  and wind up with 10 different results.  

Probably 5+ of those will involve at least 1 'stall' where you have the stove roaring (bypass open), all other factors good (coal bed, everything heated, new splits properly coaled up, etc.), you then close the bypass, hear about 5-10 seconds of the classic everburn 'rumble', clean emissions, then the rumble abruptly stops, the emissions go filthy black....blacker than anything you ever see w/ the bypass open.  It can be extremely frustrating, and there is sometimes absolutely NOTHING that can be done about it.

There is the overfire condition as well, aka the everburn 'nuclear' mode where even with the primary air choked down to its lowest levels, the fire runs away on you and the only way to stop it is to start jamming foil up the 2ndary air intake hole.


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## webbie (Oct 21, 2009)

ecocavalier02 said:
			
		

> oh yes ive read everything and seen all the videos multiple times. thinking i missed something every-time. like i said its been a real fight. hours ive spent reading all the the threads watching the videos over over. Trying a flue damper thinking to much drafter. tons and tons of fighting. been a real joy let me tell you.



I'd say sell it. It sounds like it is not the stove for you.

Get something simpler. The everburn has been a PITA for a number of folks, so I can only assume it ain't gonna get much better for your stove/chimney/wood/operator combination.

Some folks see such things as a challenge (trader) - others as a mistake..........there comes a time to cut your losses. Someone will want the stove - probably for a decent price.


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## ecocavalier02 (Oct 21, 2009)

At some points i think i would have paid someone to come and take it!! what is the scoop on the blaze king cat stove they have a smaller one says it does 1500 plus square feet. and everything ive been reading it seems to be pretty good. just curious on the whole cat. never used it before. but im sure it cant be as hard as this stove to figure out. i just want to make sure that with my setup it will work before i go spending money!


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## stockcarver (Oct 21, 2009)

and everything ive been reading it seems to be pretty good. just curious on the whole cat. never used it before. but im sure it cant be as hard as this stove to figure out. i just want to make sure that with my setup it will work before i go spending money!

The King (too large most likely) and Princess (smaller, but still a large stove, would be the one I'd recommend) are the two Catalytic combustor models that have made Blaze King famous. They also make a non-cat model, called Briarwood, I think this may be what you are referring to. I don't know much about it, probobly because it just fills a position to compete with many other similar models on the market that are non-cat, but epa approved. If this non cat stove was the only model Blaze King made, they would just be a typical stove company.  Cat stoves, Blaze King especially, are not that big a deal to operate. A poorly designed stove with a cat is.

I know you are still smarting from feeling like you got stung on your last purchase, certainly easy to understand. It sounds like you are trying to find an inexpensive solution, but you will likely get caught up in a sales pitch loaded with statistics, averages and btu's to sway you, and end up with another dog, but maybe moderately improved. I know people that went through the same progression, always chasing a cheap solution, and in frustration, some gave up wood heat altogether. As long as the pricetag drives your choice, you may end up in the same situation.  
If I had to buy another Blaze King, and the price was 3000 bucks, I would bite the bullet and never look back (if I could get it cheaper, all the better), frankly, I burned a lot of different makes and models of stoves in the last 30 years, and NONE compare for me.


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## trailblaze (Oct 21, 2009)

BurningIsLove said:
			
		

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oh yeah.... i hear ya!

mine stalls.  but i just got used to it... it might be smoking like a mofo but i just say screw it and let it go.  my chimney was not worth cleaning after one season of letting it just "go" when she stalled.  granted it might not have been cranking the best heat.... but it kept the house warm!  i got the NUCLEAR mode under control.... and can judge when to close the main damper to catch some everburn and let it stall to an internal flu temp of approx 400-500.  it burns all night like that. i watched it burn all day like that. i might be crazy but it doesn't bother me. and with the chimney scoring a good grade after 1 season i am not too worried about creosote or some stupid government regulations on  how clean my burn is.


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## efoyt (Oct 21, 2009)

Keys to success with a dutchwest everburn

let the ash tray fill up all the way then just scoop the ash out of the stove

burn a load of wood down to coals before you engage the everburn system. you can get the stove hot enough for the everburn to kick in with just burning wood but without hot coals it will not keep going. keep the stove going if you let it die down to much before reloading and engageing you will not have enough hot coals to reengage the everburn.

control the fire from getting to hot by not adding lots of little peices but using biger chungs of wood.  To much surface area when the everburn system is ingaged = run away fire.

good luck


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## ecocavalier02 (Oct 21, 2009)

interesting ill give the ash tray a shot. does that keep the secondary chamber hotter?. Im also wondering if i maybe use two 45's instead of just one elbow that the draft would be better. also has anyone tried the out side air kit. im on the verge of doing this. to at least try it. i got all the materials. i do hvac so i can at least try it to see what happens.


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## efoyt (Oct 22, 2009)

ecocavalier02 said:
			
		

> interesting ill give the ash tray a shot. does that keep the secondary chamber hotter?. Im also wondering if i maybe use two 45's instead of just one elbow that the draft would be better. also has anyone tried the out side air kit. im on the verge of doing this. to at least try it. i got all the materials. i do hvac so i can at least try it to see what happens.



I think it may keep the secondary chamber hotter, they guy that did the install of my stove told me to do it and it runs much beter that way. It does help keep it air tight, that will help with run away fires.

 The woosh sound will die down as the wood burns down, this dosin't mean that the everburn isin't working just that thier are not as many secondary gases to burn off.  Your chimmny will tell the story, black smoke not working clear it is.  And burn a full load down to coals.  If the stove is not compleatley heated up it will cool down the secondary chamber after the first rush of hot gasses going in.  This is not a Cat system the temp needs to be higher.

I don't know about the chimney questions but someone here should.


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## ecocavalier02 (Oct 22, 2009)

do you think i should wait until the stove hits a certain temp as well? i usually get the stack wicked hot. and i get a huge coal bed. but never really monitor the stove temp.


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## efoyt (Oct 22, 2009)

ecocavalier02 said:
			
		

> do you think i should wait until the stove hits a certain temp as well? i usually get the stack wicked hot. and i get a huge coal bed. but never really monitor the stove temp.



yes, I engage when it hits 500 ( thermometer at the base of my stove pipe so it is prob twice that inside the stove).  Get a good bed of coals, reload your stove, let the temp climb back to 500 ( stove pipe thermometer). you may need to leave the door open for a min to do it. then engage the everburn.


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## branchburner (Oct 22, 2009)

ecocavalier02 said:
			
		

> do you think i should wait until the stove hits a certain temp as well? i usually get the stack wicked hot. and i get a huge coal bed. but never really monitor the stove temp.



Just wondering - after you get a good coal bed, nice hot stove and then reload it full, how long do you wait to close the bypass damper?


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## trailblaze (Oct 23, 2009)

ecocavalier02 said:
			
		

> interesting ill give the ash tray a shot. does that keep the secondary chamber hotter?. Im also wondering if i maybe use two 45's instead of just one elbow that the draft would be better. also has anyone tried the out side air kit. im on the verge of doing this. to at least try it. i got all the materials. i do hvac so i can at least try it to see what happens.



that would make the draft better.  you don't sound as if you need more draft when starting the fire and achieving the bed of coals..... but once the thing dies down a bit in everburn mode it might restrict the flow.  i have a 18ft straight inside run pipe.   

i have learned too that the more coals and ash the better. 


i allow my stove pipe temp (14inches up) to reach about 400-500 externally. the top of the stove temp varies but it's around 600.  then i close the damper. the rumble will stop.  it never lasted more than 20 mins for me.  sometimes though it comes back as the wood ignites in different stages of the burn.


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## efoyt (Oct 23, 2009)

branchburner said:
			
		

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I wait 3 to 8 min depending on how much wood i put in and how hot the stove is.


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## ecocavalier02 (Oct 24, 2009)

Well i talked to the dealer where i got the stove today. He says he has the same exact stove and has no problems with it. smoke free burns. he seems to think that i should have the liner insulated. my chimney goes from the basement up through my garage on an outside wall then through my attic. the chimney is not exposed to the outside at all though expect for the last couple feet at the roof. i don't really think its going to make that much of a difference. anyone have an opinion. stuff to insulate the thing would cost about 600 bucks.


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## branchburner (Oct 24, 2009)

I'm betting you have insufficient draft for this stove to run optimally due to it being in the basement.


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## ecocavalier02 (Oct 24, 2009)

So how would i fix it? maybe an outside air kit?


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## ecocavalier02 (Oct 24, 2009)

Also my stove is in the corner of the room of the finish basement. I have often wondered if its been getting robbed of air.


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## branchburner (Oct 24, 2009)

Outside air is worth a try. Also, you say a lined inside chimney, but how warm are your attic and garage? Is it a 6" liner? Without insulation it may be staying cool enough to effect the draft. The other thing to check is any leaks in the system, like pipe connections, that might be diluting the draft.

Even though these stoves seem like duds, I think really good draft is essential. My downdraft stove was used in a basement for one season by the previous owner - he gave up. The slight negative pressure you might get in a basement could be enough to screw up a stove that's temperamental to begin with.


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## branchburner (Oct 24, 2009)

By the way, the fact your dealer suggested insulation is a good thing. Seems many dealers don't think it makes any difference.


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## ecocavalier02 (Oct 24, 2009)

well the garage always stays above freezing high 40's and then it goes into the attic which is usally in the 50's about. def not real cold cuz the house heats it pretty good.


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## Hanko (Oct 24, 2009)

ecocavalier02 said:
			
		

> Ive been fighting with this stove now for 2 and a half years. I've read everything on this site and tried everything. Just can't take anymore. If anyone has any new suggestions to try please shed some light. Also my wood has been split and drying for 2 YEARS and is super dry.. Im more than likely looking for a new stove. any suggestions?



Id be willing to bet that you have chimney issues guy. Mine works great and there are three others in the family, that have no problems. Check your downdraft chambers. Take the top of the stove off and youll need a very small dia. vaccum. The chambers are on the side towards the back. they are good for plugging up with chunks of creosote. If you have good dry wood, and  a straight tall chimney, the downdraft tubes are clear, it should work good for you


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## RustyShackleford (Oct 24, 2009)

Hanko said:
			
		

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What the heck are "downdraft chambers" ?   Can you explain ?


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## Hanko (Oct 24, 2009)

if you have a dutchwest stove with the ever burn, take the top off and you will see them.


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## ecocavalier02 (Oct 24, 2009)

well i installed a oak. now to wait and see when it gets cooler to see what happens. ill keep updates. also i put a lighter up the intake and it pushed the flame back in to the room. so will see what happens


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## Hanko (Oct 24, 2009)

not sure what you mean, installed an aok!!  dont engage the everburn untill you have a good hot bed of coals, usually the first small load of wood needs to be chared and hot. leave the bypass open untill the things really takes off. I heat a 1400 sq ft shop with mine 27/7 on 3 cords maybe 3 1/2.


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## ecocavalier02 (Oct 24, 2009)

an outside air kit. yes hanko i know how to get the thing hot and get the coal bed going believe me. this is my second year with this thing and i ve read everything on this site and tried everything.


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## branchburner (Oct 24, 2009)

I think Hanko had a good suggestion when he mentioned creosote or ash clogging the afterburner - have you checked out the guts of that stove yet? I don't know how your downdraft combustion system compares to mine, but mine will build up ash. It is also very fragile, so clean gently.


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## ecocavalier02 (Oct 24, 2009)

Oh yes I've had that thing apart to clean it more than once a season to clean.will see how it goes. I added 2 45s also rto replace the 90s. Will see what happens when it gets cold. Hopefully I don't have to insulate .


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## Todd (Oct 25, 2009)

ecocavalier02 said:
			
		

> Well i talked to the dealer where i got the stove today. He says he has the same exact stove and has no problems with it. smoke free burns. he seems to think that i should have the liner insulated. my chimney goes from the basement up through my garage on an outside wall then through my attic. the chimney is not exposed to the outside at all though expect for the last couple feet at the roof. i don't really think its going to make that much of a difference. anyone have an opinion. stuff to insulate the thing would cost about 600 bucks.



Stuff some rock wool or Kawool insulation between your liner and chimney in the first couple feet below the cap, that should keep the liner warmer. I also think the OAK will help with a basement install but if you ran the pipe up the wall and out the sill plate that cold air will push into the stove too hard and create other problems. Best to have it below the stoves air intake so the stove will draw air as needed.


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## ecocavalier02 (Oct 25, 2009)

I have the intake hooked directly  into the stove it does go up the wall and out but that's my only option. Should I put a damper in the intake or maybe take it off and just dump the air behind the stove


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## bsa0021 (Oct 25, 2009)

ecocavalier02 said:
			
		

> Oh yes I've had that thing apart to clean it more than once a season to clean.will see how it goes. I added 2 45s also rto replace the 90s. Will see what happens when it gets cold. Hopefully I don't have to insulate .



Have you inspected the fountain in the back of the stove, behind the refractory material? This is what Hanko is referring to. The fountain looks like a piece of drywall (and is about as durable as drywall when heated to 500 degrees).
These stoves like perfect draft. I lucked out with my 2478 but I still have some problems when the temp outside is above 35. Don't go by the rumble to determine if everburn is working look at stack temps. If you run 500 stack temp (about 18" up ) your good. 
I've gotten great heat out of my dutchwest for the past 4 years (more than my PE insert) but boy they are fragile and a pain to run if draft is not just right. I've never had to fight with wood placement, amount of coals etc. with my setup but everyones' install is different.


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## ecocavalier02 (Oct 25, 2009)

Foutain. Youbjust talkin when you take the flue collar off and vaccu$ ther u mean?


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## bsa0021 (Oct 25, 2009)

ecocavalier02 said:
			
		

> Foutain. Youbjust talkin when you take the flue collar off and vaccu$ ther u mean?



Yes! There are two small holes one on each outer edge of the fountain that will fill with burn dust (creosote). CAREFULLY vacuum these out. If you have a hole in the center of the fountain you won't have everburn and you will need to shell out $400 big ones.


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## Todd (Oct 25, 2009)

ecocavalier02 said:
			
		

> I have the intake hooked directly  into the stove it does go up the wall and out but that's my only option. Should I put a damper in the intake or maybe take it off and just dump the air behind the stove



You can try the damper, but it didn't work for me, the colder the air, the faster it pushed into the stove. If you just let the cold air dump behind the stove it would be just like having an open window.


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## ecocavalier02 (Oct 25, 2009)

Well I don't know anyother option. Comin down to nothin here. Ill put a damper in.


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## ecocavalier02 (Oct 25, 2009)

bsa0021 said:
			
		

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> ...




i dont know if your talking about just the back of the stove where you take off the flue collar, because i've cleaned back there throughly and taken the shoe out once a week while burning and clean that out as well.


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## bsa0021 (Oct 25, 2009)

ecocavalier02 said:
			
		

> bsa0021 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Here is a picture of the fountain after the flue collar is removed from the back/top of the stove. There shouldn't be a hole in the middle but toward the outside edges of the opening are two small passages (barely visable at the edges of the picture). You need a very small diameter hose (maybe 1" diameter) to vacuum out these passageways w/o damaging the fountain.


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## ecocavalier02 (Oct 25, 2009)

Ahh i see. thank you for the pic. but yes i cleaned that out very good with are small soot vac from work with a small hose


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## ecocavalier02 (Dec 6, 2009)

well i've had the stove lit now for a couple days. trying a lot of different things. Im finding that i can get the everburn to engage when i shut the primary air completely off once the coal bed is achieved. IM wondering that by cutting the air off forces ignition in the secondary chamber. because there is no other air for the rest of the fire to burn. Im determined to conquer this stove. i just want a relaxing stove that i dont have to baby every freking minute.


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## ecocavalier02 (Dec 6, 2009)

I think maybe by having that primary air fully open it robs the secondary chamber of air??? any feed back would be great thank you..


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## bsa0021 (Dec 6, 2009)

What stack temps are you getting when everburn kicks in and what temps when you think everburn stops? When my damper is closed the air intake controlled the speed/temp of the burn. Air open = more heat and faster burn. Air closed = long burn time and lower heat which is as it should be. I don't know why your stove would burn hotter with the air closed. My overnight burns would run best with a touch open from the completely closed position. Did you insulate your liner as mentioned earlier? Your "t" may be giving you some problems. Why are you using a "T"? Are you running another appliance into the stove pipe?


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## ecocavalier02 (Dec 6, 2009)

i have a hole in my chimney. thats how its connected in. the t is  capped on the bottom. i never insulated the liner. i dont think insulation is my problem. to tell you the truth im about 10 minutes from giving up on this piece of crap and starting to research a new stove. sometimes when you have everything stacked in there just right it'll take off for an hour then boom nothing and smoke out the chimney like crazy. i mean i got a frekin 4 to 5 inch hottt coal bed. all wood been split and dried for 2 YEARS. i cant handle anymore of this. IF the cresote build up wasnt so bad i wouldnt care as much but it clogs it up like crazy...


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## bsa0021 (Dec 7, 2009)

ecocavalier02 said:
			
		

> i have a hole in my chimney. that's how its connected in. the t is capped on the bottom. i never insulated the liner. i don't think insulation is my problem. to tell you the truth im about 10 minutes from giving up on this piece of crap and starting to research a new stove. sometimes when you have everything stacked in there just right it'll take off for an hour then boom nothing and smoke out the chimney like crazy. i mean i got a frekin 4 to 5 inch hottt coal bed. all wood been split and dried for 2 YEARS. i cant handle anymore of this. IF the cresote build up wasnt so bad i wouldnt care as much but it clogs it up like crazy...



I'm not sure how to picture that "T" but why wouldn't you use a 90 degree pipe? Do you have any pictures? If creosote is clogging up your chimney with truely 20% moisture wood, then you definitely have draft issues.
One thing is to make sure the small holes in the shoe (just behind the grate) are open. There are about six holes that I poke a small wire into every week.

As far as buying another stove, if you can afford it, now is a good time with the 30% tax break. If you purchase a new stove with the secondary burn baffle system as I did when I bought my Pacific Energy insert, you will be amazed at the difference in operational procedures. But if your draft/liner is not properly installed a new stove will give you fits as well.


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## ecocavalier02 (Dec 7, 2009)

also if my draft was soooo bad then why does it have no problem lighting up and i never have any smoke spillage. and when i damper down it burns fine. doesn't  look lazy. also the stove it's self will be at between 4 and 600. but yet smoke coming from the chimney and creosote like crazy. because of the low stack temps. BOGGLES MY FREKIN MIND. ive lost all patients with this damn thing. im really done after this year and am starting to research hard on a new stove. not making the same mistake again.


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## rkymtnoffgrid (Dec 7, 2009)

I THOUGHT I WAS THE ONLY ONE!!  I have this stove at my cabin up in the mountains.  I thought the secondary combustion chamber didn't work because I was  at 10,000 feet with no oxygen, I thought it didn't work because I was burning aspen.  I thought it didn't work becasue I didn't have an outside air kit, (I installed one and took it back off, at the time, I think the intake of the supercold -5 degree air actually made it run worse).  Perhaps it doesn't work because all the invisible passages in the secondary air chutes, downdraft tubes, (whatever...) are plugged...perhaps my 20' of straight stack with 15' inside my valted celing isn't enough somehow.  Or perhaps the overall mass and air flow design of the secondary combustion chamber just isn't enough to maintain the temps required for thoes of us with poor wood, poor drafts, high elevation, etc.  I don't know what it is, but I know that from day one I could never keep the stove hot enough to maintain burn in the combustion chamber.  It alsways, always petered out after 30mins to 1 hour, requireing me to open the dampener to get it back up to temps.  I no longer engage it and I get grim satisification every time I overfire this stove (which seems rather tuff in that respect)....I don't care about warranty, 3 years ago when the stove was brand new I couldn't get replacement parts...much less now.  If and when it breaks down (and dont think it will, I've been hard on this stove), I will replace it.  I will tell you this...it is so much more relaxing not worring about that stupid damper control...mind you, it takes about a year after your huge investment to finally be able to relax within site of it, but once you are truly over the fact that the little lever on the left top of your stove is only astetic, enjoyment will return to your life.  In the mean time, try not to look that the black smoke comming from the top of the chimney...that only brings anger and prolongs the process...good luck...


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## rkymtnoffgrid (Dec 7, 2009)

This is what you need to do... inspect the gasket at the flue exit "collar" etc. replace if necessary.  Inspect the gaskets around the gass and front door and replace if necessary, tighten the front door nut so that it tightens to the gaskets really good...(like me, this may require replacement of the nut/bolt etc due to siezing..) Then stop opening the front door alltogether...utilize only the side door and keep maintaining so that it is always tight to the gaskets...were trying to minimize leaks here.  Next, clean your flue.  Now, and this is the tuffest part, but necessary for the theriputic value...with an allen key, remove the crome lever from the rod of upper damper and go outside and throw it as far possible....you will no longer need it...  You are now free from incessent babysitting of the "neverburn" technolgy... and your stove is as airtight as possible, you will find that you can burn anything you like!  Wet wood, bad wood, rotten wood, burn it all!! Thats your only plus, you can now burn what ever you like.  Its quite liberating actually...Your problems are solved!!  You no longer have draft problems, you no longer need to eliminate "T"s etc.  Your stove will no longer "burp" "backdraft" "belch" at the slightest breeze, it will no longer smell like smoke in your house.  You don't need an O.A.K...This stove burns like a champ like this!!  YOU ARE FREE  Just reload every 4-6 hours, I would think oak will give you that time frame with good air control...I reload every two to three with aspen...I have to relight every morning, but I would think that at night, if you throttled it down all the way, and with the stove being as tight as possible, and burning oak, your coals will allow you a re-light by just adding wood and opening the ash door.  You will smoke like crazy, you will need to inspect and clean the flue more often, and you will need to stay on top of the gaskets on the side door and the ash door...But the stove works great like this... Just keep the flue clean and get the cheapest wood possible.  Some day you might have an effiecient stove you will love and care about, treating it to best most dryest woods, but that is not now, BURN THAT @#$$@#@#!


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## BurningIsLove (Dec 7, 2009)

ecocavalier02 said:
			
		

> I think maybe by having that primary air fully open it robs the secondary chamber of air??? any feed back would be great thank you..



Tryin out that theory this year....to an extent there is some supporting data behind this given the design.  Assume that a given stack & outdoor temp, atmos. pressure, etc. that your stove is going to draft a certain value, lets call this X.  A certain amount of draft needs to go through the reburn chamber in order to sustain secondary combustion, let's call this Y.  If X<Y, of course its not going to work.  Causes of this are too cold a fire, stack not warmed enough, stove not receiving enough air due to oversealed room, etc. etc.  

Now let's break down Y into two different components, the amount of air coming in from the primary air control and the amount through the secondary intake (uncontrollable without unsupported modifications).  If there is too much air being let in through primary, then this is going to subtract from the amount coming in through the secondary, and you could stall it out.  

One way I try and prevent this changing the primary air setting after loading fresh splits and letting them heat up/coal sufficiently (bypass open).  The amount of primary air is dependent on many factors like stack temp, amount of time the stove has been running, whether I've had successful secondary on this fire before this reload, etc.   but for new fires its typically mostly/completely open and less for existing fires else the things gets way too hot (stovetop temps 700+).  With a nice active fire, as I'm about to close the bypass I throttle the primary back to about 20%, then close the bypass.   It really gets a lot of air rushing in via the secondary intake which is essential in preventing 'the stall'.


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## BurningIsLove (Dec 7, 2009)

ecocavalier02 said:
			
		

> Well i talked to the dealer where i got the stove today. He says he has the same exact stove and has no problems with it. smoke free burns. he seems to think that i should have the liner insulated. my chimney goes from the basement up through my garage on an outside wall then through my attic. the chimney is not exposed to the outside at all though expect for the last couple feet at the roof. i don't really think its going to make that much of a difference. anyone have an opinion. stuff to insulate the thing would cost about 600 bucks.



Two interpretations on that one depending on what your dealer was referring to.  "Insulation" implying that you want to make sure your stack doesnt ignite any combustible surfaces inside a wall and cause a fire is of course a very good thing.  

Your stack is like mine in that it's mostly indoors and not exposed to outside air except at the peak.  My garage and the other floor it passes through are well insulated w/ good windows, walls, etc as its new construction.  My stack is a single masonry block chimney with two separate clay lined flues, the other one being for the oil furnace whose operation and the woodstove are mutually exclusive.  That's a whole lot of mass to heat up as it has to indirectly heat both of them.  As a result, mine takes two sometimes even three hours to heat up sufficiently before I can even attempt secondary combustion.  Once up to temp, it aids the draft as it doesnt cool down quickly.  Insulating the stack could help it heat up/retain heat faster, but just make sure you're not adding a lot of mass that you have to first heat up else you're going to add to the amount of 'wasted' time heating up the stack.


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## ecocavalier02 (Dec 7, 2009)

Yeah im not going to insulate. I really am almost positve its not the problem. BUT i think i many have figured something out. i do not stuff the coals fully in the shoe. just a little i take some decent chunks of wood and put them on each side of the shoe then lay a decent size split across them. then stack to the right of that right on the coals and all the way up. Creating like a 2 or 3 inch air pocket. and it has worked getting temps starting out at about 800 to 1000 then slowly dying down to about 400 or so after a few hours with No smoke at all. i will try this and see how it keeps going. I think may have it but im not speaking to soon. like the other guy said if it doesnt work everytime and thers smoke coming out of the chimney im not spening hours of tiring myself getting it to work. just letting it go as it is!!


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## BurningIsLove (Dec 8, 2009)

ecocavalier02 said:
			
		

> Yeah im not going to insulate. I really am almost positve its not the problem. BUT i think i many have figured something out. i do not stuff the coals fully in the shoe. just a little i take some decent chunks of wood and put them on each side of the shoe then lay a decent size split across them. then stack to the right of that right on the coals and all the way up. Creating like a 2 or 3 inch air pocket. and it has worked getting temps starting out at about 800 to 1000 then slowly dying down to about 400 or so after a few hours with No smoke at all. i will try this and see how it keeps going. I think may have it but im not speaking to soon. like the other guy said if it doesnt work everytime and thers smoke coming out of the chimney im not spening hours of tiring myself getting it to work. just letting it go as it is!!



Yes, that does help.  Do a search on my posts on this topic (diff thread)...I posted a picture of coals & split orientation that I use that works well.  But in summary, you want air to move from the top front of the stove by primary air inlet, downwards across the inside of the glass, then to be sucked along the coal bed into the throat/shoe so it's heated as much as possible w/ limited obstacles.  I use a stove poker to create a shallow channel in the coals going F-->B before loading new splits.

The longest burn times I get are when the top splits are not even burning when I close the bypass.  As the bottom splits burn & turn into coals, the top splits get up to temp and slowly move downwards w/o causing 'nuclear' mode.


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## stoveguy2esw (Dec 8, 2009)

just glossing through this so i may have missed somthing but is there any way that colder air can enter the chimney surrounding the flue? clean out door for the flue (not the liner but the flue that contains it) even with the outside of the flue in the garage it should not be as bad as a true "external" chimney but cold circulation could have some effect.

just a wag


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## BurningIsLove (Dec 8, 2009)

stoveguy2esw said:
			
		

> just glossing through this so i may have missed somthing but is there any way that colder air can enter the chimney surrounding the flue? clean out door for the flue (not the liner but the flue that contains it) even with the outside of the flue in the garage it should not be as bad as a true "external" chimney but cold circulation could have some effect.
> 
> just a wag



I would definitely not classify the seals around my cleanout door as 100% airtight, but the air leakage is reasonably tiny compared to what the stove is pulling in.  The exterior wall of the masonry chimney is about 110-125F when the stove has been running for several hours, and the probe temp readings about 6" back from the flue collar are upwards of 1100F.  Dont think the small amount of 60 degree air coming thru the cleanout can really compete with that to affect draft.  In my setup, the cleanout door is more than 12' below the flue collar, so the radiant heat from the liner/masonry does migrate downwards several feet to pre-warm that cooler air before it reaches the stove height.

But keep the suggestions/thoughts coming!


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## ecocavalier02 (Dec 8, 2009)

well back to square one with this thing. back to the smokey chimney and temps scooting toward the creosote level just minutes after adding two very dry splits ontop of a 6 inch coal bed. im looking back on the two years ive owned this thing and on how many hours during the winter ive waisted fighting and cleaning the darn chimney clogged full. im really really giving up. hmm maybe a blaze king in the near future don't know yet. if i run into problems again like this i dont know what i would do.


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## BurningIsLove (Dec 8, 2009)

ecocavalier02 said:
			
		

> well back to square one with this thing. back to the smokey chimney and temps scooting toward the creosote level just minutes after adding two very dry splits ontop of a 6 inch coal bed. im looking back on the two years ive owned this thing and on how many hours during the winter ive waisted fighting and cleaning the darn chimney clogged full. im really really giving up. hmm maybe a blaze king in the near future don't know yet. if i run into problems again like this i dont know what i would do.



I know, I know, it's more than a bit frustrating I know....last night I had a nice secondary going on for several hours, stack all up to temp, below freezing outside, no backpuffing, life is good, right?  After several hours it's time to reload as there are only 2 un-coaled but actively burning splits remaining in there...still got a 6" coal bed, nice & hot stove (420F surface temp), and reloading it with splits from the same tree, same rack, same size, same seasoning time...shouldnt be a problem, right?  After letting the new splits get going (approx 15 minutes), stove temp up to 650F, close the bypass and a whole lot of nothin happens.  Re-arranged everything twice and still didnt get much (sooty emissions, dropping temps, classic stall scenario).  Heard a slight settling of the splits and WHOOM!  reburns cranks right up, so yes its the most finicky stove I've known in 25 years of burning.

People who havent used/seen this stove always say it must be the wood that I'm using....but if you tell me that dry, two-year seasoned red oak & maple splits are not good enough?  I've even tried taking my fuel to other people's stoves that I'm not familiar with.  Absolutely NO problems whatsoever.  The other two were very different (Lopi non-cat and VC cat).  

This will be my last DW stove ever, but I'm gonna hang onto it for a while until the first major repair is required (likely replacement of refractory material).  Despite its user-unfriendly nature, it does heat my whole home effectively, looks nice, and I can usually tame it and make it work w/ extra effort.


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## ecocavalier02 (Dec 8, 2009)

i hear you on that one. Ive had some good burns on besides the mishap last night. think i was the way i put it in. it really is the most finicky frekin thing to get right. im just hoping and i learn even more about it it becomes not such a JOB to do. definitely my last dw stove as well. i will hold onto to it until i have a stash of cash that i can blow. until then i will deal with it. you are right though it does HEAT the house very efficiently. just doesn't EMISSION EFFICIENTLY easy.


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## rkymtnoffgrid (Dec 9, 2009)

I'll have to second the heating aspect...I don't even try the everburn anymore, but I'm in a forest of aspen and spruce so naturally thats what I burn.  Maybe I'll buy some oak and give it a go, just to see if I can finally get it right one time.  One thing is for sure, that stove can take the heat, I routinely overfire the crap out of it bringing my cabin up from sub-freezing temps on short weekend getaways...I leave the ashdoor open and create the "blow-torch" effect for hours...(I dont mind admiting it); not the slightest indication of warped or bent ashpans trays etc after 2 years of this type of abuse.....everone says I shouldnt do that, but I'll tell you what, it works really well...  That 3-year-old DW has been a hell of a stove in that respect, it gets my cabin warm in a hurry, and I'm beginning to respect it for that.  Just keep it as airtight as possible and enjoy it, besides the view of the fire sucks when that stupid bypass is closed, except for the expolsive "vavoom" that happens when it puffs....Oh thats exciting!  I remember when I used to close that bypass, the blueish-red flames just rolled around the firebox and that throaty roar from the back, it is mezmerizing...all for about 5 mins, then nothing..."What happened?!?!" and I really enjoy seeing the fire, it's the main reason I chop wood to begin with.  Too bad it just couldn't work like that all the time...


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## rkymtnoffgrid (Dec 9, 2009)

In fact the reason I bought that stove was because the sells persons showed me what happened when he engauged the lever and put into "EVERBURN high efficiency mode" on the showroom floor, I bought it then and there!  Thinking back now, I wonder if it would have stayed in everburn, or if he just switched it back to let the coals build back up for the next prospect.  When you first close that damper it is a very impressive burn...


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## bsa0021 (Dec 10, 2009)

rkymtnoffgrid said:
			
		

> I leave the ashdoor open and create the "blow-torch" effect for hours...(I dont mind admiting it); not the slightest indication of warped or bent ashpans trays etc after 2 years of this type of abuse.....everone says I shouldnt do that, but I'll tell you what, it works really well...
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, You don't smell melting pipe? I did this once for maybe 10 minutes as I was in another room and it was the smell alone sent me running. Scared the crap outa me when I saw the stack temps exceed the limit of the thermometer.


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## Hanko (Dec 10, 2009)

put any other stove in its place and youll most likely have issues with that one also. Its not the stove dude


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## ecocavalier02 (Dec 10, 2009)

so why dont you think it's the stove. Very curious? i can get it to do what its suppose to do. Just taking 2 years now of learning


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## Hanko (Dec 10, 2009)

because I know of 4 other people that have them, me, my son and brother, and a neighbor all have had excellent results mines going on its 4 th year. good dry wood and good chimneys and draft. I wish I could see your set up. can you post pics of the stove chimney inside and out?


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## ecocavalier02 (Dec 10, 2009)

dont have time right now but tomorrow i will try. i would love to here what steps you do in gettin thing roaring. things like how long do you leave ur bypass open after reloads?  and is all of the chimneys you guys have straight up? and what year model is yours.


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## bsa0021 (Dec 10, 2009)

FWIW, After burning a DW for 4 years and now a PE insert for 2 months, the baffle design of the PE (and others of this design) is by far superior to the everburn in the ability to start a fire, continuous burn and chimney cleanliness. Contrary to what has been written here, the DW is a very fragile stove as far as internals are concerned (my biggest complaint). Time will tell how the PE design does in this respect. I will say that when I began using the DW, I didn't find it that difficult to operate, the heat output was awesome and I thought a quick cleaning every 2 months of 24/7 burning was normal but I had nothing to compare it too. If I had used the PE and switched to the DW I probably would have operational problems. The PE is practically a light it and forget it stove(so to speak). With VC selling out and the new owner failing to cover the warrenty tells me they may have seen operational and reliability issues coming.


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## ecocavalier02 (Dec 10, 2009)

im also wondering if a bad chimney cap desighn would maybe be a part of the problem.. any feed back wood be great. i have a cap like this. 


http://www.woodlanddirect.com/core/media/media.nl?id=86161&c=483668&h=392f6b73390ee09eec3b


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## ecocavalier02 (Dec 10, 2009)

and wondering if something like this would help out.   http://www.woodlanddirect.com/core/media/media.nl?id=10641&c=483668&h=6119669156fb2dcdc0dd


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## Hanko (Dec 10, 2009)

bsa0021 said:
			
		

> FWIW, After burning a DW for 4 years and now a PE insert for 2 months, the baffle design of the PE (and others of this design) is by far superior to the everburn in the ability to start a fire, continuous burn and chimney cleanliness. Contrary to what has been written here, the DW is a very fragile stove as far as internals are concerned (my biggest complaint). Time will tell how the PE design does in this respect. I will say that when I began using the DW, I didn't find it that difficult to operate, the heat output was awesome and I thought a quick cleaning every 2 months of 24/7 burning was normal but I had nothing to compare it too. If I had used the PE and switched to the DW I probably would have operational problems. The PE is practically a light it and forget it stove(so to speak). With VC selling out and the new owner failing to cover the warrenty tells me they may have seen operational and reliability issues coming.




thats a bunch of BS. I find no problem at all starting a fire,  or producing good heat for 6 to 8 hrs. I clean my chimney once a year. The everburn is  engaged when stove temps reach 500 degrees and stays in that mode untill its time to reload. I have a Jotul F500 which is a no brainer stove like the PE. dosesnt do any better than the DW, except its better looking. Ive probably run  16 cord through mine and no problems with with any of the internals. Ill be willing to bet that anyone that has a problem with the DW or any of the VC models with the everburn has wood, or chimney issues. When you say start a fire, are you refering to start up from cold or what? I do clean the downdraft chambers twice a year, and that is the only maintanence they require.


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## ecocavalier02 (Dec 10, 2009)

YEs i never have a problem starting from scratch or refueling it. i has only been when i damper down.. truthfully i  have been burning off a lot of odds and end crap pieces of wood and hadnt got into my good stash until the day before.. and i've had no problems. i will say last years wood was only split for one year and was a lot of oak. This year's woods is maple and oak spilt for two years. Will see how things go over the next few days as i will be using all nice straight spits and good wood.


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## Hanko (Dec 10, 2009)

Try and post some photos of your system. Id like to see your chimney on the out side. Also inside too.


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## rkymtnoffgrid (Dec 10, 2009)

I think the dutchwest is a qualtiy stove, I just am disapointed in the everburn system with it.  I was sold that stove thinking I could utilize that clean burning technolgy buring the wood that grows in these parts.  I burn pine and aspen, that's all I have, it's dry and seasoned well, but if the everburn can only be used by thoes buring hardwood that should be in the VC broucure on the VC websites etc. etc.  It should be the first thing the dealers ask around these parts.  We don't have hardwoods growing anywhere in the state!  Now that I've owned it for 3 years, like the other gent here, I have tried eveything but can't get the everburn to stabilize for any length of time.  As soon as the bypass is closed, the stove begins a slow process of looseing heat.  It may it an hour, may take it 30min, may be 10, but it always stalls out.  I've been told over and over that it is the wood that I burn, that I have to have hardwood...well VC should put that in sales liturature because the stove is worthless to us in these parts if you can only burn hard stuff.  Now, I totally disagree with the quality of the stove being bad, besides the everburn never burning, its been a great stove.  I guess this is my question....does anyone consistently achieve everburn with Aspen and Spruce?  I understand you would have to load it more, but why wouldn't it work?  If it not the wood then is it either my install, the sove being dirty, or my elevation (10,000ft)?  I've been following this thread with great interest because this poor guy sounds like me last year when I gave up on trying to get the everburn to work.  But unlike me, I doubt he's at extremely high elevations, and hes buring seasoned oak!  I would think he should have no problem.  I'm going to post two pictures of my inside and outside flue, since all the interested parties are already tuned in, maybe there is something obviously wrong they might see.  This has been a great thread for learning exactly how to fire these stoves. Two picts are attached.


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## firefighterjake (Dec 10, 2009)

rkymtnoffgrid said:
			
		

> I think the dutchwest is a qualtiy stove, I just am disapointed in the everburn system with it.  I was sold that stove thinking I could utilize that clean burning technolgy buring the wood that grows in these parts.  I burn pine and aspen, that's all I have, it's dry and seasoned well, but if the everburn can only be used by thoes buring hardwood that should be in the VC broucure on the VC websites etc. etc.  It should be the first thing the dealers ask around these parts.  We don't have hardwoods growing anywhere in the state!  Now that I've owned it for 3 years, like the other gent here, I have tried eveything but can't get the everburn to stabilize for any length of time.  As soon as the bypass is closed, the stove begins a slow process of looseing heat.  It may it an hour, may take it 30min, may be 10, but it always stalls out.  I've been told over and over that it is the wood that I burn, that I have to have hardwood...well VC should put that in sales liturature because the stove is worthless to us in these parts if you can only burn hard stuff.  Now, I totally disagree with the quality of the stove being bad, besides the everburn never burning, its been a great stove.  I guess this is my question....does anyone consistently achieve everburn with Aspen and Spruce?  I understand you would have to load it more, but why wouldn't it work?  If it not the wood then is it either my install, the sove being dirty, or my elevation (10,000ft)?  I've been following this thread with great interest because this poor guy sounds like me last year when I gave up on trying to get the everburn to work.  But unlike me, I doubt he's at extremely high elevations, and hes buring seasoned oak!  I would think he should have no problem.  I'm going to post two pictures of my inside and outside flue, since all the interested parties are already tuned in, maybe there is something obviously wrong they might see.  This has been a great thread for learning exactly how to fire these stoves. Two picts are attached.



Maybe the everburn system would work better if the stove wasn't installed on its side.


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## rkymtnoffgrid (Dec 10, 2009)

Yea, sorry guys, didn't mean to give you a crick in the neck...


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## Hanko (Dec 10, 2009)

Your Chimney looks great, long and straight, I thougt it was ecocavilier that was having the issues.


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## Diabel (Dec 10, 2009)

When was the last time you cleaned/vacuumed the reburner? I usually do it two/three times per season.....you would not believe how much fly ash accumulates there. If that is done...how clean is your chimney? These units are extremely draft sensitive, any accumulation near the top of the chimney will have a negative effect on the everburn. 

Over the years I have learned how to load the stove i.e. on a nice bed of coals I will place a large split about 1 in. away from the throat, then (I always use limb wood for fillers) I place a nice 2" round right against the top of the throat (it sits right above the throat) then I put another split on top of the first big one, then space permitting I try to squeeze another small round/limb above the throat (just below the damper), then I always have some small/short splits that will fit just right to the griddle. I get that rocking to 600* griddle & 500-600* flue (magnetic) close the damper...for about 10min the stove will rumble like a jet but then it will settle flue 450-550* & the griddle 450-500* with the noise level much softer. After 3-4 hrs the flue will read 300-350* & the griddle 550-600* at which point you can not hear the everburn anymore (no smoke at all). No matter what wood I use hard or soft I will still get the same results (burn time will be different of course). I find that the 2" limbs help to sustain the everburn in the first couple of hrs of the burn cycle. Try this & see what happens but make sure everything is nice & clean back there!


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## Hanko (Dec 10, 2009)

thats how mine sounds, I love the swooooooch


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## rkymtnoffgrid (Dec 10, 2009)

Hanko you are not mistaken, Eco is the original poster with all the problems, and Its not my intention to hyjack his thread but he has generated such a responce to his problems with his stove (which are the exact the same stove and problems as mine) that I thought it best to get the input here.  Anyway, yes the chimney is kept superclean, I have my own brush and I get up there 3-4 times a year to sweep it.  I'm rather keen on the chimney being clean, I have to get up there often to wipe snow, dirt and pollen off the solar panels, and I routinely check the chimney as well.  Asfar as ash buildup in the back of the stove, that may or many not be a problem.  I removed the pipe and cleaned that area last winter on advice of my dealer, but I don't recall specifically getting the vac into the holes right and left as was previously posted in this thread.  I remember that when I looked at it, I was impressed that it looked clean and was thinking it could not have attributed to the problem, perhaps I was mistaken.  As far as placement of the splits, the descriptions in this thead have been very helpful, and although I have not in the past placed each and every log in the exact fashion mentioned, I have been relentless in my pursuit of a "thick" coal bed prior to closing the bypass.  But no matter how long I have done the initial burn with the bypass open, no matter hot or deep the bed looks, once the damper is closed, the everburn sounds effective at first only to fizzle out after 10-20 mins or so.  Thus begins a steady and predictable decline in stove temps.  I have never, never, seen a sitution where my stove has not smoked, and I have given up on the accout that perhaps my wood quality will not allow it, (Aspen and Spruce).  Diabel, you said you get the same results burning soft or hardwood, I find that surprising if not hopefull.  When I go back up there I clean the ports and will play with the placement of splits.  Anyone else able to achieve "everburn" using softwood?  Diabel what kind of softwood are you using and what kind of pipe temps are you consistenly getting with a "stable" burn.


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## Diabel (Dec 10, 2009)

Once you remove the flue pipe from the stove, you will need to run a 1" vacuum hose on each side of the reburner. If this has not been done...it could be your solution! Also, some folks here suggested to remove & clean the ash behind the shoe, I have not done it & this is my 4th season. I am kind of reluctant to do this since I am afraid that my refactory is crumbling & I will not be able to put the stuff back together. As for wood type & will burn spruce, box elder, pine & cedar. Cedar was the only wood that last spring that gave me problems but at the same time, at that point in the season I ran out of limb wood. I used some 2x4s & it worked but not as well. Now I decided to use the cedar only for kindling. As for results....using hard vs soft wood I am only saying that the everburn will engage using either wood type.


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## Hanko (Dec 10, 2009)

hey guys, to clean the reburn or everburn or what ever evryone wants to refer to them as, the top needs to come off, (two studs with nuts) No Im not refering to brother bart or be green as two studs with nuts, but as i was saying you need to remove the top and you will see two chambers towards the outside. A small 1 inch vaccum hose will suck all the crap out of them. Try that. I have to do mine in the fall and midway through the burn season


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## Diabel (Dec 10, 2009)

With a small hose you s/b able to clean it through the damper door. I do it that way.


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## rkymtnoffgrid (Dec 10, 2009)

Ok, are we refering to two different area to clean here?  The "tubes" which are just visible below right and left of the flue collar, which I'm assuming I can get at by removeing the stove pipe and using a 1" vac.  I plan to replace that flue collar gasket, so I assuming that removal of the flue collar would even make access to the two tubs easier. (lets call this area #1).  Now is there seperate area behind the "shoe"?  (area #2) Am I mistaken that the way to clean this area is by removing the entire top, as in the whole cast top griddle area of the stove?  Then once thats off I would use a vac to get to hidden areas on the right and left side?  and Diabel is suggesting I could possibly clean area #2 by reaching through the open damper and feeding the 1" hose craftly to right and left and down?  Am I getting this right?


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## Diabel (Dec 10, 2009)

rkymtnoffgrid said:
			
		

> Ok, are we refering to two different area to clean here?  The "tubes" which are just visible below right and left of the flue collar, which I'm assuming I can get at by removeing the stove pipe and using a 1" vac.  I plan to replace that flue collar gasket, so I assuming that removal of the flue collar would even make access to the two tubs easier. (lets call this area #1).  Now is there seperate area behind the "shoe"?  (area #2) Am I mistaken that the way to clean this area is by removing the entire top, as in the whole cast top griddle area of the stove?  Then once thats off I would use a vac to get to hidden areas on the right and left side?  and Diabel is suggesting I could possibly clean area #2 by reaching through the open damper and feeding the 1" hose craftly to right and left and down?  Am I getting this right?



The "tubes" as you call it are the little holes in the shoe, ash apparently gets in behind them & the only way to remove this ash is by removing the shoe all together. This is one area that as said earlier I am reluctant to take apart. What I am talking about are the two chambers on each side of the reburner accessible with a small hose through the bypass area (easiest) or by removing the flue pipe. You will see these chambers if you remove the flue pipe at least in the encore...DW might be different. That is why I said you should be able to access it from the damper area.


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## ecocavalier02 (Dec 10, 2009)

No worrys on the hijacking. haha. NAh this cool hearing many different ideas. its been a couple days on the good wood and i seem to be having some good stress free burns. what Diabel said with the stacking it in there like that i think is key. that shoe needs some room to breath and then stacking the crap out of the rest of the stove as well i htink helps by keeping it tight letting it burn from the bottom up. the shoe is really easy to take out. just remove the grate in the stove and it slides right out. just be careful... Very Fragile.


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## rkymtnoffgrid (Dec 10, 2009)

Well I'm getting ansey to see if all this works, I'll be going back up there for a couple weeks for during christmas and I'll put the things discussed in this thread to the test.  Eco, it sounds like you removed the entire shoe through the front, by removing the ash grate?  Could you elaborate?


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## ecocavalier02 (Dec 11, 2009)

Yeah just pull the ash grate out. then slide the shoe out. really easy


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## bsa0021 (Dec 11, 2009)

Hanko said:
			
		

> bsa0021 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No reason to get bitter. These are my observations and opinions. I didn't say I had a problem starting a fire. The PE design is easier to start from cold and to start secondary burn than the DW. I have said in previous posts that my DW has been a great stove with long 8-10 hour burns. It has heated my home well for 4 years. I have not had any of the issues that are written about in the post. However, the DW is not a durable stove. Have you checked your fountain?? I bought my PE because I was not going to spend $400 every 2-3 years in replacement parts. I wil continue to use my DW on the weekends but it still is not as easy to use as my PE. Your results may differ but as a general rule with baffle stove and everburn stove running side by side I'm willing to bet the majority of people will find the baffle stove more user friendly. 
Today is a good example. The PE ran 10.5 hours w/o reloading I came home from work loaded 5 splits and in 10 minutes I had secondary burn after closing air down completely. This can not be done that quickly in the DW.


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## bsa0021 (Dec 11, 2009)

rkymtnoffgrid said:
			
		

> Hanko you are not mistaken, Eco is the original poster with all the problems, and Its not my intention to hyjack his thread but he has generated such a responce to his problems with his stove (which are the exact the same stove and problems as mine) that I thought it best to get the input here.  Anyway, yes the chimney is kept superclean, I have my own brush and I get up there 3-4 times a year to sweep it.  I'm rather keen on the chimney being clean, I have to get up there often to wipe snow, dirt and pollen off the solar panels, and I routinely check the chimney as well.  Asfar as ash buildup in the back of the stove, that may or many not be a problem.  I removed the pipe and cleaned that area last winter on advice of my dealer, but I don't recall specifically getting the vac into the holes right and left as was previously posted in this thread.  I remember that when I looked at it, I was impressed that it looked clean and was thinking it could not have attributed to the problem, perhaps I was mistaken.  As far as placement of the splits, the descriptions in this thead have been very helpful, and although I have not in the past placed each and every log in the exact fashion mentioned, I have been relentless in my pursuit of a "thick" coal bed prior to closing the bypass.  But no matter how long I have done the initial burn with the bypass open, no matter hot or deep the bed looks, once the damper is closed, the everburn sounds effective at first only to fizzle out after 10-20 mins or so.  Thus begins a steady and predictable decline in stove temps.  I have never, never, seen a sitution where my stove has not smoked, and I have given up on the accout that perhaps my wood quality will not allow it, (Aspen and Spruce).  Diabel, you said you get the same results burning soft or hardwood, I find that surprising if not hopefull.  When I go back up there I clean the ports and will play with the placement of splits.  Anyone else able to achieve "everburn" using softwood?  Diabel what kind of softwood are you using and what kind of pipe temps are you consistenly getting with a "stable" burn.



Secondary burn (everburn) should be easier to achieve with softwoods (it is for me). I hope everyone is not expecting the initial loud everburn roar to continue for hours. It won't, but your temps should stay up and possibly climb.


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## bsa0021 (Dec 11, 2009)

Diabel said:
			
		

> With a small hose you s/b able to clean it through the damper door. I do it that way.



You won't be able to reach down far enough using this method. You'll only reach the damper shelf.


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## rkymtnoffgrid (Dec 11, 2009)

Bsa once your reburn stablized, lets say 2 hours after closeing the bypass, what pipe temps were you getting?  Were you smoking at all?, were you burning that clean?  Perhaps I've never noticed a problem with my "fountain" or other refractory becase I have never got my secondary burn system to work in three years.  I'm going to take the whole thing apart, clean the afterburner/reburner/everburner...(good grief this post sounds like were trying to lauch the space shuttle...) then I'll focus on the placement of the splits...Maybe, just maybe, if theres a pressure system over the rockies, and the outside temperatures are less than freezing, and I put holy water in the humidifer.. I'll get the everburn to stabilize.  Thanks Eco for the original post, and thanks for all the responces, I'm much better equipped now, but I have to say, it has be so much easier in the past when I could just blame the stove...what the heck am I going to do now?


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## bsa0021 (Dec 12, 2009)

rkymtnoffgrid said:
			
		

> Bsa once your reburn stablized, lets say 2 hours after closeing the bypass, what pipe temps were you getting? Were you smoking at all?, were you burning that clean? Perhaps I've never noticed a problem with my "fountain" or other refractory becase I have never got my secondary burn system to work in three years. I'm going to take the whole thing apart, clean the afterburner/reburner/everburn...(good grief this post sounds like were trying to lauch the space shuttle...) then I'll focus on the placement of the splits...Maybe, just maybe, if theres a pressure system over the rockies, and the outside temperatures are less than freezing, and I put holy water in the humidifer.. I'll get the everburn to stabilize. Thanks Eco for the original post, and thanks for all the responces, I'm much better equipped now, but I have to say, it has be so much easier in the past when I could just blame the stove...what the heck am I going to do now?



My stack temps run around 500 - 600 degrees on the single wall pipe about 18" above the stove. I don't have any smoke when these temps are reached. I do get smoke at cold start up and whenever I add new splits to a hot fire but this stops once the "fresh" wood has been heated/ignited. My fountain (which sits behind the shoe) disintegrated after 3 years of 24/7 burning ( I have pics if needed). My dealer claimed that the early stoves had poorly made fountains and were improved. However, at the end of last year I was once again seeing flakes of fountain lying on the shoe (the start of fountain self destruction). The refractory material has not given me any problems.....yet. I am very careful placing my splits to prevent damaging the refractory. Still, my shoe and door refractory are showing signs of crumbling from heat cycling. Probably 2 years of 24/7 and everything would need replacement. This stove is now only used for supplemental heating when the temps are really cold so I hope I can get 5 years out of her. With the fountain costing $400 alone, If I had to replace the refractory as well I might as well buy a new stove (Englander maybe??).


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## rkymtnoffgrid (Dec 12, 2009)

Good info, thanks for the input.


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## ecocavalier02 (Dec 12, 2009)

Wall im now on about the 12th flawless free everburn. i think the orientation of how i load the stove and the wood im using are playing a major role. I'll keep ya guys posted. im starting to feel confident about the stove so i knocked each piece of wood before throwing it in the stove. haha. don't want to jinx myself...


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## ecocavalier02 (Dec 13, 2009)

Now the second time in a row after reloading the stove goes thermo nuclear!! pipe temps climbing to 1400!!i dont know what is going on but thats not good. i have restricted the air on secondary with some foil.. NOw this thing has me nervous to leave the thing. i think im goin to put a damper on there some how. usually this just hapens once in a while. but now twice in a row.


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## ecocavalier02 (Dec 13, 2009)

I do have a flu damper wood that work as well? Also i dont know if when  reloaded it had a pretty hugge coal bed left and maybe causing it to over-fire. Or im thinkig the way i have been stacking it in there could be cause it as well. i put a 2 to 3 inch small chunk of wood on both sides of the shoe. then i lay a piece of wood over it. leavin like a 3 inch air space. an dnow with the temps being real cold its really pulling the air through that space like a tornado.. also once the log fell off the chunks of wood it stopped.. also i used a few piece of maple on the bottom that have been dryin for two years... i know maple dries much faster than oak. could it be like kiln dried wood?


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## bsa0021 (Dec 13, 2009)

ecocavalier02 said:
			
		

> Now the second time in a row after reloading the stove goes thermo nuclear!! pipe temps climbing to 1400!!i dont know what is going on but thats not good. i have restricted the air on secondary with some foil.. NOw this thing has me nervous to leave the thing. i think im goin to put a damper on there some how. usually this just hapens once in a while. but now twice in a row.



This has happened to me a few times in the 4 years I've used the stove, most in the last 2 years. At first I thought I was putting too many pieces of hard wood (oak/locust) in at one time but at the end of last year I noticed that the gasket on top of the flue damper lost it's hold in the groove possibily not alowing the damper to close completely. I need to investigate this further but when it happens the foil trick works.


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## ecocavalier02 (Dec 13, 2009)

will a key damper in the stove pipe help regulate this. i have about a 25 foot chimney. any help would be appreciated i have a key damper. wondering weather not to install it or not.. seems like i couldnt get the frekin thing to work for so long now its working great. and im getting wicked high temps in the flu.


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## bsa0021 (Dec 14, 2009)

ecocavalier02 said:
			
		

> will a key damper in the stove pipe help regulate this. i have about a 25 foot chimney. any help would be appreciated i have a key damper. wondering weather not to install it or not.. seems like i couldnt get the frekin thing to work for so long now its working great. and im getting wicked high temps in the flu.



Can you give specifics....temps, thermometer type and location?


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## ecocavalier02 (Dec 14, 2009)

18 inches up probe thermometer


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## bsa0021 (Dec 15, 2009)

ecocavalier02 said:
			
		

> 18 inches up probe thermometer



A probe thermometer will read considerably higher than a magnetic thermometer. I'm not sure where your temps should be as all my reading are with the magnetic.


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## ecocavalier02 (Dec 15, 2009)

yeah i have a magnetic one on there to and it was at about 650. i also stopped it and dont know if it would have gone higher. i mean is that ok burning that hot. anythin above 1200 makes me nervous. but maybe not.


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## bsa0021 (Dec 15, 2009)

ecocavalier02 said:
			
		

> yeah i have a magnetic one on there to and it was at about 650. i also stopped it and dont know if it would have gone higher. i mean is that ok burning that hot. anythin above 1200 makes me nervous. but maybe not.



That's quite a big span of temps. I don't know why that is unless you have a leaking gasket somewhere. As I said before, I cruise around 500 degrees. At 1200 degrees I would think the outside of the stove be glowing red (not good).


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## ecocavalier02 (Dec 15, 2009)

its definatly not a gasket leak. it just happened these to times. and now it has been working fine. as soon as i take a piece of foil to the secondary air it cuts it way down. it just happens sometimes. i think if one of the pieces of wood is really really dry and a lot of draft it just goes nuts. i find if i shut the bypass and let primary air in at about 3 quarter and as soon as is the everburn starts to really kick in cut the air almost all the way back then it will stabilize at about 1000 then go down from there. thats about 500 on the magnetic thermometer. 2 years with this stove and im still learning. really takes some time. considering as well i have never burned in a stove before this one. i think im really starting to get it. lots of help from this forum. really appreciated.


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## heffergm (Dec 15, 2009)

What are your griddle temps when you're seeing 1400 flie temps? I don't check my flue temp simply because I can't with my install. The stove has never been past 600 or so griddle temp and shows no inclination to run away on me (if anything it's more prone to stalling). 

There was a good post a while back from the instructions that came with the VC stovetop thermometer:

Encore Burning Guide

When burning wood, place the thermometer on the griddle right of center.

At the beginning of a burn cycle it is necessary to establish a hot fire and a good draft in the chimney.  In order to accomplish this in most installations, the temperature should be in the 500*-600* range for 15 min. - 1/2 hour before the damper is closed.  

Once the damper is closed, it is advisable to set the thermometer on a high setting for 5-10 minutes to maintain proper draft. 

Experimentation will show you where to position the thermostat after this 5-10 minute period.

The usual operating range is 350*-600*, although slightly higher temperatures are all right when extra heat is needed.  Surface temperatures higher than 700 degrees are considered excessive.  At temperatures below 350 degrees the stove should be burned with the damper open.


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## ecocavalier02 (Dec 15, 2009)

Stove top temp bout 500 . Never gooes much above that


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## Valhalla (Dec 15, 2009)

I feel that draft is an issue, as when I read
"elbow and tee," I first became suspect. 

A cold start, with a marginal draft may be 
causal to this fellow's frustration.

At 6:30 AM, I would lite a small draft fire with
softwood to heat up the flue. Then build
up the fire with some splits, only after it 
is fully heated. Go to Everburn only 
after a good hot coal base is established.
Most owners move that lever way too soon! 

The condition of the flue may also be suspect
after many possible failed smoldering burns.

This may be a challenge while trying to get ready
for work and family needs. I would also consider
getting up earlier in the winter.


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## ecocavalier02 (Dec 17, 2009)

Well i think i figured out why its been overfireing. Some ome one here sId this wood be a problem and i think there right. I have. Outside air kit that comes down my wall about seven feet straight downand it was really pooring air down pushing lkle crazy. I could put a piece of paper up to it and it sould blow away. Specially after it stating getting really cold. MakinTg the stove like a big vaccum


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## FireWalker (Dec 17, 2009)

ecocavalier02 said:
			
		

> Wall im now on about the 12th flawless free everburn. i think the orientation of how i load the stove and the wood im using are playing a major role. I'll keep ya guys posted. im starting to feel confident about the stove so i knocked each piece of wood before throwing it in the stove. haha. don't want to jinx myself...



When I read this post I thought it may be time to change the name of this thread and apologize to the folks at VC.





























Then I read the next post! :ahhh:


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## ecocavalier02 (Dec 17, 2009)

ecocavalier02 said:
			
		

> Well i think i figured out why its been overfireing. Some ome one here sId this wood be a problem and i think there right. I have. Outside air kit that comes down my wall about seven feet straight downand it was really pooring air down pushing lkle crazy. I could put a piece of paper up to it and it sould blow away. Specially after it stating getting really cold. MakinTg the stove like a big vaccum



Anybody have any thoughts on this being the problem?


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## ecocavalier02 (Dec 17, 2009)

Well im really figuring this thing and reAlly feel confident. The maple ive been burning has ben drying for two years as well. And i was letting it char up real good then closing the by pass and then it would go nuts. Just now i put a piece i. And then let it go for three minutes and it took off like normal without going crazy just burnig at normal temps. That and the combo of the combo of that air dumpin in there. Guess u got to be careful when the wood is reallh dry.


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## bsa0021 (Dec 18, 2009)

FireWalker said:
			
		

> ecocavalier02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## bsa0021 (Dec 18, 2009)

bsa0021 said:
			
		

> FireWalker said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ecocavalier02 (Dec 18, 2009)

Well im oficially shutting her down. Thought i was feelinf confident until this thing has now overfired on me about seven times. I thought it was the wood thought it was the outside air kit. K dont see how it could be a gasket issue bcuz i stil get eight to nine hour burn time. I really am done for the season and will be turning the heat on.  I will have to talk to the dealer all i knpw is i feel like i lost two years of my winter life to fighting this thing. And have been up then down and thinking i got it and then crash and boom it goes nutzo. Well fair well to the dw


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## ecocavalier02 (Dec 19, 2009)

n e body?


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## Todd (Dec 19, 2009)

I don't know if this has already been suggested since I didn't feel like reading through the whole thread but have you talked to the dealer about a trade in? Just tell them it didn't work out like you wanted and your willing to buy a different stove from them if you could work out a deal. Or see what you could get on Craigs list and buy a new one. Don't feel bad, your not the only one here that has bought different stoves every year til you find the right one, I went through 3 in 5 years.


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## ecocavalier02 (Dec 19, 2009)

I did talk to them and that was a couple months ago wehen i told them i wasnt able to get the ec
verburn system to work. Now its been working good but the last 5 days or so its been going thermo nuclear. But i also made the switch to some maple. Been drying for just bout two years. I dont know if this could be the culprit or what. But it has scared the crap out of me. So i guess ill try it for another week mixing in just one or two pieces with the oak. As you can see this stove has made me bi polar one sexond shes history the next im in there for more trying to figure this thing out. Very exhausting. Its takin me this long to get it to work and now she keeps goin crazy but im ptetty sure its only been with the maple and not closing the air down fast enuf.


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## Todd (Dec 19, 2009)

Your story sounds similar to many other neverburn stove owners here the last couple years. There are a few that seem to have mastered it, but it just seems like a real PITA for most. I know every load can burn different but it shouldn't be that hard to get a somewhat consistant burn from an EPA stove. Good luck.


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## bsa0021 (Dec 19, 2009)

Don't assume your gaskets are ok. Check the doors w/a dollar bill (all three doors). Check the gasket inside the damper. This one is not visable unless the top is removed but you can feel it to see if it is out of position. Is the back of the stove glowing red when it goes thermo? You  will have to remove the thin outer steel (heat shield) at the back of the stove. If the back or sides glow red, your fountain is bad. Have you removed the shoe? It's also possible that the outer fountain is intact and the internal passageways have disintergrated creating a stronger draft or redirecting the draft due to fountain debris. Did you ever remove the flue collar? The gasket under the collar is easy to slide out as you bolt it down.
Finally, we have not seen any pictures of your set up. This may not help but sometimes a picture says it all.


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## ecocavalier02 (Dec 19, 2009)

Well i tbink im going to have the dealer come out and look. As i do not have the patience to deal with this. Ill let you lnow what they say. I just cant deal witb trying to take this apart anymore and fiddle with it. also like right now i just loaded up 4 pieces of oak let the go for 15 min shut bypass. with 3 inch coal bed at least and now its in the cresote level at about 400 internal temp. if there was some kind of leak why would it do this!? and not over fire everytime


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## bsa0021 (Dec 19, 2009)

ecocavalier02 said:
			
		

> Well i tbink im going to have the dealer come out and look. As i do not have the patience to deal with this. Ill let you lnow what they say. I just cant deal witb trying to take this apart anymore and fiddle with it. also like right now i just loaded up 4 pieces of oak let the go for 15 min shut bypass. with 3 inch coal bed at least and now its in the cresote level at about 400 internal temp. if there was some kind of leak why would it do this!? and not over fire everytime



If your dealer has been selling and operating these stoves for some time, that may be your best option. Right now, you have too many variables controlling your system. Look at it this way, you already know how finicky these stoves can be, now if you throw in a leaking gasket somewhere, especially the damper gasket, which as in my case, was moving in and out of it's grove everytime the damper was moved, how can you expect the stove to operate properly. We are not even considering some problem w/your install which could be another issue.


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## ecocavalier02 (Dec 19, 2009)

Do u think the fact i dont have a block off plate in the fire place woild make a differnce. I have the opening seed kff with insulation and a she of metal.  This way here when i clean the chimney out i can Get to the t to clean it out.  I also am really wonderi g if its the maple im trying just the oK and seem to be having no problems. Somebody ease have n e opinions on the wood? It seems to be very very dry.


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## ecocavalier02 (Dec 20, 2009)

Well were def going to make the switch next year to a different stove. so i will deal with this for the next couple months here but then this thing is gone! researching the blazeking princess and cant wait. trying to convince my wife to use are tax refund money to get it this year but i dont think she'll go for it. Ill keep you posted as to what the guy says from the dealer when he comes on monday.


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## ecocavalier02 (Dec 21, 2009)

Well the dealer never called us back so my wife called them back! needless to say they now want a 160 bucks an hour to come out and look at it. HAHHAHA. so i have made the decision to just shut it down. I no longer have the patience for this thing im so feed up that im actually going to pay to heat my house. It will really be sad to hear that furnace kick on, but oh well More wood for next year and it will now be 3 years split and dried. Ideal for a blaze king from what i hear. so oh well and farewell to the DW!! its been a long hard fight with this thing and i guess you could say this thing kicked my ass. I actually feel worn out from working with this thing. and thats no joke. ive worked harder on getting this thing to work than i have cutting and splitting wood.


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## rkymtnoffgrid (Dec 21, 2009)

I have to chuckle, I feel your pain, I'm heading up to the cabin in 2 days to fool with mine with the goal to finally get a secondary burn to stabilize,  I can't wait to find out whats in store.


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## Valhalla (Dec 22, 2009)

Hindsight is always 20-20. The dealer and manufacturer
should have be notified in writing from the
beginning. We all fall into the casual trap that it
will be easily taken care of. Written requests 
and good notes go a long way in proving a case. 

I would still write to the manufacturer directly.


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## ecocavalier02 (Dec 26, 2009)

well i posted pictures somewhat of the install. let me know what you think. see anything unusual. there at this post here.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/48957/


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## Chip Brown (Dec 27, 2009)

I just noticed your posts and want to know if your having better sucess with your stove now that the temps have dropped in Connecticut??  The 2479 has a pretty good track record, it's NOT AT ALL like the old federal that was discribed in the above posts.  If your still having issues i would like to work to resolve them with you.  

Have you had a service tech from the dealer come to assist you??


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## ecocavalier02 (Dec 27, 2009)

NO the issues were not resolved. well in a way they were i stopped using the stove completely. the dealer will not come out unless they charge a 160 bucks an hour. i've just completely given up, and am just waiting until next year to get a new stove. theres no changing my mind on that either. ive fought enough with this thing. thinking i had it right really getting it to go. then boom no good. to many ups in down and to much baby sitting. like i said above i can get it to do what it needs to do. but its 30 to 45 minutes of fighting with it to do that. The only thing that can be done to resolve my problem is if they'd chip in to buy me a new one. the only thing the dealer said they'd do is have the guy come out and they will just tell me whether its me or the stove and if its the stove will have to buy the parts. so i dont even care cuz ive given up completely and ill try and sell it for a few hundred bucks or so.


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## Chip Brown (Dec 27, 2009)

WOW, i guess it's kicked your butt.  What town in CT do you live in, I would be willing to look at your stove and install at NO CHARGE.  Here's my thoughts from my time working with stoves, specificly Vc's and DW's.  In many cases it's something simple that has gone wrong or it may not even be the stove.  If it is the stove and the stove is new, it may be under warranty and you may not need to be taking a $$$ hit.  Let me know if your interested in some help or if your truly done.  Keep this in mind, if it's not the stove and it's something in your installation you could replace the stove with the same results.


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## mhl380 (Dec 27, 2009)

I think i got this stove working wright finally. i get my flu temp about 800 degree
after i get a good bed of hot coals i fill the stove with wood open the damper
let it run for about 30 min's close the damper i can then hear the everburn kick in
i can hear the draft pulling from the round hole in the bottom go out side look
at the chimeny and no smoke just good heat coming from it. hope it works for
a long time like this .last night i got about a 9 hour burn out of it.


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## bigcountry494 (Jan 15, 2010)

I've spent the last week reading through all these threads...same issues here.  I've been running it 24/7 since Nov. and I'd say I get the everburn running only at the end of the day before I hit the sack when I have all the coals.  I think I've had it running once before work.  Usually it just smolders all day.  I don't have the time before work to make sure the everburn is running.  Tonight I had my first "nuclear" experience, though I got it under control before it hit 1000 at 18" up.  Last weekend when the folks were here I just kept the damper open and used the air control and it was a piece of cake.  It ran perfect.  I did that just so I didn't have to babysit it like usual.  I didn't check for any smoke, but it was putting out some great heat.  When the everburn runs, it really is a great thing.  Tonight it stalled with a bunch of coals and a big load of lodgepole, so I opened up the door and moved a chunk of wood away from the throat and the everburn kicked in like it should.  It's been running for a couple hours.

I guess this has all been said.  This stove came with the cabin I just bought, so I'm not too concerned about wasted money, but if I knew this is what I was getting from a store I'd run the other way.  I cleaned out the stack for the second time tonight and it wasn't too bad.  I was expecting the worst.  I did have to take the screen off the cap because that clogged up twice.  She really blows out the creosote when it gets hot.  Chunks are laying on the snow out front.

Thanks for all the info.  If I don't have this figured out by the end of next season, it's on to a new stove.

So, how many of you have just forgot about the damper and left it open all the time?  I'm wondering how much more wood I'd go through?


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## ecocavalier02 (Jan 15, 2010)

Your going to go through a ton of wood with The flu open. Iys crazy that you have to worry about the stove over firing with the flu closed I myself quit on this stove about amonth ago. After a almost A 3 seasonbattle with this thing. I now am waiting in excitement for my blaze king to arrive in the next couple weeks! So good luck with it. There r a few on this site that habe mastered it.


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## bigcountry494 (Jan 16, 2010)

Does anyone know from experience how much less efficient it is with the damper open and the air control down most of the time?  It really burns clean like that instead of risking a stall out and making a bunch of creosote.

I'm starting to shop around for a different stove.  Any suggestion on one around $1000?


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## Todd (Jan 16, 2010)

I bet your losing close to 30% burning with the bypass open. All that smoke out your chimney is wasted fuel. For $1k I'd look at an Englander 30.


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## bsa0021 (Jan 16, 2010)

bigcountry494 said:
			
		

> Does anyone know from experience how much less efficient it is with the damper open and the air control down most of the time?  It really burns clean like that instead of risking a stall out and making a bunch of creosote.
> 
> I'm starting to shop around for a different stove.  Any suggestion on one around $1000?



I'm thinking of replacing my DW with a Englander when Lowes puts them on clearance. The one I was looking at sells for $800 and it was clearance priced at $499 last year. That's just a little more than the cost of a DW fountain.


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## rkymtnoffgrid (Jan 16, 2010)

I burn aspen and spruce.  As such, I had given up on the bypass last year, and went through the winter very happy simply by utilizing the air control with the bypass open, 3 hour reloads with softwood.  I don't know how much more wood I spent because I have never gotten the everburn to stabilize, after fooling with it for 2 years I simply stopped playing with it.  After I stopped caring about the lever on the top left operation of the stove became much easier.  This is my honest opinion on these stoves... they can achieve a carefree seconday burn with semi-dry hardwoods.  Perhaps its all about wood... For instance, if I burn spruce, fir, or pine the everburn simply doesn't work, it seems like a loosing equasion of not enought btu output from the wood to burn the excessive gasses produced from such wood...my result, the "stall", if I burn aspen, I can get the everburn going, but the wood evaporates into ash and establishes no coal bed, thus the stove stalls, it's like the wood is gone just as things started kicking in...  With oak, semi-dry, (semi dry for me means "whole" on the ground for 2-3 years, then cut into rounds and split 4-6 months eariler) the everburn kicks in and stabilizes, few times no, but most times yes, its a really weird variable, but mostly it works...With super-dry oak (split and drying 3+ years), the nuclear potential exists, I don't think most ever see the nuclear aspect, more people are like me, constantly flipping the bypass open and closed to aviod the stall and sap more heat from the stove, not really ever thinking that the wood has such effects...  Dutchwest owners, does this make sence??  
PS If anyone whats to come to my house and show me how to work it I'd be elated...


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## bigcountry494 (Jan 16, 2010)

I'm burning beetle kill lodgepole pine.  I'm on some really seasoned stuff right now.  I have noticed the big difference between green and seasoned.  Lodgepole is laying on the ground all over the place here in Grand County, so it's free.  I'd say each day I get the everburn going once or twice.  I put some rounds in a while ago and the everburn is going strong.  Actually, while I was splitting wood tonight, I had the damper open with the air on low and it had some nice flames and good heat and no smoke.  When I got back inside I flipped the damper closed and the everburn kicked right in.  Now I'm thinking I'll get the everburn going most nights while in bed and in the morning I'll just load it up with rounds and leave the damper open while at work.  Getting heat out of this thing is absolutely no problem, but I just want some clean burns with coals left when I get home from work and when I wake up in the morning.  Leaving the bypass open is giving me real clean burns once the bark is burned off (as long as I have flames).

I already have most of my wood ready for the summer sun.

Where are you in the mountains, rkymtnoffgrid?


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## rkymtnoffgrid (Jan 19, 2010)

> Where are you in the mountains, rkymtnoffgrid?


I'm in southern centeral colorado, the Sangre de Cristo mts, about 11 miles south of the where the 160 goes over the La Veta Pass.  You?


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## bigcountry494 (Jan 23, 2010)

I'm just south of Grand Lake and RM Nat. Park and enjoying an extremely mild winter.  We have less than a foot on the ground.  You're probably getting dumped on this week...


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## pyper (Jan 25, 2010)

Can you blow compressed air through the tubes from inside the stove instead of removing the flue to vacuum?

I've got the 2478 (medium, instead of 2479 large). I've only tried the everburn lever a few times. It worked great when I had a good bed of coals (knock on wood). Usually I just run it with the bypass open and the air intake closed -- it has to be pretty cold outside to build up a good bed of coals without overheating the house.


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## bsa0021 (Jan 26, 2010)

pyper said:
			
		

> Can you blow compressed air through the tubes from inside the stove instead of removing the flue to vacuum?
> 
> I've got the 2478 (medium, instead of 2479 large). I've only tried the everburn lever a few times. It worked great when I had a good bed of coals (knock on wood). Usually I just run it with the bypass open and the air intake closed -- it has to be pretty cold outside to build up a good bed of coals without overheating the house.



When you say tubes I think you mean the holes in the shoe as there are no tubes in the Dutchwest. Blowing compressed air inside the stove will only create a cloud of ash in the stove and out the door. The build up that is removed by vacuuming below the flue (inside the fountain) has no place to go if you use compressed air on the inside. There is a maze of channels that the air follows and the debris sits at the lowest point of the fountain. There are only 2 screws holding the top in place. Open the front door and spray some penetrating oil on the studs protruding from above. Lift the top straight off and the gasket should stay intact.


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## Nostrum (Jan 26, 2010)

I want to give you some competition for the "worst stove ever". I've just uninstalled my VC Defiant 1610 non-cat. It has suffered from all of the symptoms that you have mentioned as well. I've fought with this stove for a year and a half. Babysitting the stove day after day. Opening and closing the damper trying to get the everburn to work. Stuffing the stove full of wood at night (lots of it). Freezing all night and then waking up to a burned out cold stove. Not sure where all the wood goes but it's doesn't turn it into much heat.

My solution: I picked up a nice Hearthstone II Brownstone on Craigslist. Bought it for $300. Removed the top. Replaced the cracked back and side plates with 3/8 plate steel fabricated locally. Recemented the entire stove with Hearthstone stove cement. Finished my 3rd break in fire last Friday evening.

I now have a huge smile on my face. A stove that actually works!! You put wood in it (not much I might add). Close the damper, a little adjustment on the air valve and it burns. Runs a consistent 450 stove top temperature with no waiting and babysitting. I'm thrilled with the stove. Should have bought one of these years ago. House has never been warmer. My VC has burned over two full cords of wood (maybe more) so far this winter. The H-II is burning almost nothing in comparison.

Anyone interested in a one year old mint condition VC 1610, let me know. I'm in South Jersey.


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## ecocavalier02 (Jan 26, 2010)

Nostrum said:
			
		

> I want to give you some competition for the "worst stove ever". I've just uninstalled my VC Defiant 1610 non-cat. It has suffered from all of the symptoms that you have mentioned as well. I've fought with this stove for a year and a half. Babysitting the stove day after day. Opening and closing the damper trying to get the everburn to work. Stuffing the stove full of wood at night (lots of it). Freezing all night and then waking up to a burned out cold stove. Not sure where all the wood goes but it's doesn't turn it into much heat.
> 
> My solution: I picked up a nice Hearthstone II Brownstone on Craigslist. Bought it for $300. Removed the top. Replaced the cracked back and side plates with 3/8 plate steel fabricated locally. Recemented the entire stove with Hearthstone stove cement. Finished my 3rd break in fire last Friday evening.
> 
> ...



i hear your bro. i got a 2479 up for sale now as well. 2 days with the blaze king and im am in upward amazement of how this thing works. i feel like i have to poke the logs every 5 minutes to try and get it to everburn. so many people saying it was my wood or operator error when it overfired. until i found this website this couple years back and found there was many more with the same problem. i said how can over 2 year dried red maple be not dry.? haha and over two year old oak not dry. well the fight came to an end let me tell ya. now im in love with my king haha. and just to make sure my would wasnt bad cuz i was worried the king i bought a meter and everything ive been burning was all 12 to 20 % mc.  that stove made my wife think i was crazy. i couldnt even sleep at night cuz i was all freaked out it was going to go nuts. that thing put me through hell in winter. lol


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## savageactor7 (Jan 26, 2010)

Congratulations on the new stove ecocavalier02. Glad to hear it fire up and runs OK...you have suffered enough!


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## bsa0021 (Jan 26, 2010)

I'm hoping my vc stove will go the way of the old pot belly stoves you see people buy for decorations to put on their porch or wherever. That way when I get a replacement stove I can recoup some of my loss.  Hmmm there is a big craft fair in the spring........


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## ecocavalier02 (Jan 27, 2010)

im very glad as well and really appreciate the help ive gotten from this site.


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## FireWalker (Jan 27, 2010)

So is this thread over yet? geeez.

Glad you are happy with your new stove, I like you struggled with the wrong stove.

Now, start a nice new thread with lots of rainbows and flowers.


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## ecocavalier02 (Jan 27, 2010)

Ha. I know this thread keeps popping back up.


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## rkymtnoffgrid (Jan 28, 2010)

This thread is like an addiction for thoes of us with a love-hate relationship with our ductwest...I'm a fiend.  I keep thinking someones going to pop on and suddenly tell me to remove the shipping block from my stove and it's suddenly going to work...  Until that happens, I'll keep looking forward to new posts on this crazy thread...


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## BrowningBAR (Jan 28, 2010)

I nearly bought a large Dutchwest stove two years ago instead of the Vigilant. This thread makes me feel very good about my decision.


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## ecocavalier02 (Jan 28, 2010)

yeah your lucky. not to say i guess there are people who are working that stove and getting it to do its thing but i think if you look on the posts on this thing theres probably more bad than good. i just think they were poorly built from the refractory to the gaskets and i think the downdraft system can be tricky itself with out all of these other issues that can come with the dutchwest.


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## Troutchaser (Jan 28, 2010)

rkymtnoffgrid said:
			
		

> This thread is like an addiction for thoes of us with a love-hate relationship with our ductwest...I'm a fiend.  I keep thinking someones going to pop on and suddenly tell me to remove the shipping block from my stove and it's suddenly going to work...  Until that happens, I'll keep looking forward to new posts on this crazy thread...



You're finding the Leyden much easier to operate in everburn?  I'm curious why you purchased another downdraft with all the troubles with Dutchwest.
Besides Leyden is a great looking stove.


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## rkymtnoffgrid (Jan 28, 2010)

The Leyden simply works, the Ducthwest does not, instead of the secondary combustion loosing heat and stalling, the leyden will actually build and stabilize.   Heat output is strong and consistent for a good long time, not so with the Dutchwest.  Just my observations, I keep thinking I'm doing something wrong with the dutchwest, why doesn't it operate like my Leyden?  I don't know...  When I bought the Leyden, I didn't realize it was in the same "class" at the dutchwest, so the answer to that question is that it was bought out of ignorance to the downdraft design, and I certainly would not have bought it if knew it shared the same design as the "everburn".  But now that I have both stoves and see how well the Leyden performs, I'm just wondering if it isn't the Dutchwest itself.  My only complaint about the leyden is the ash drawer, its a little funky, and I think all downdrafts will suffer from a boring fire and smoky glass.  But I no longer belive all the downdrafts suffer from "stalling" or "going nuclear", that trait is appearantly very common with the dutchwest.  If I had it to do all over again, a sideload fairview or sideload Jotul would be the route I would take... No matter how carefull I am, I can't do a full reload without a trace of smoke smell with the Leyden.  The sideload dutchwest was harder to get wood and made a bigger mess, but never made the cabin smell like smoke.


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## Troutchaser (Jan 28, 2010)

rkymtnoffgrid said:
			
		

> The Leyden simply works, the Ducthwest does not, instead of the secondary combustion loosing heat and stalling, the leyden will actually build and stabilize.   Heat output is strong and consistent for a good long time, not so with the Dutchwest.  Just my observations, I keep thinking I'm doing something wrong with the dutchwest, why doesn't it operate like my Leyden?  I don't know...  When I bought the Leyden, I didn't realize it was in the same "class" at the dutchwest, so the answer to that question is that it was bought out of ignorance to the downdraft design, and I certainly would not have bought it if knew it shared the same design as the "everburn".  But now that I have both stoves and see how well the Leyden performs, I'm just wondering if it isn't the Dutchwest itself.  My only complaint about the leyden is the ash drawer, its a little funky, and I think all downdrafts will suffer from a boring fire and smoky glass.  But I no longer belive all the downdrafts suffer from "stalling" or "going nuclear", that trait is appearantly very common with the dutchwest.  If I had it to do all over again, a sideload fairview or sideload Jotul would be the route I would take... No matter how carefull I am, I can't do a full reload without a trace of smoke smell with the Leyden.  The sideload dutchwest was harder to get wood and made a bigger mess, but never made the cabin smell like smoke.



When I bought the Leyden, I couldn't have told you a downdraft from a cat from a burn tube.  How was I to know?  That first night I burned for awhile, filled her up with huge splits, and closed the bypass.  I thought it was that easy!  Took me a long time to get the glass clean after that one.
But I'm thinking the saving grace with the Leyden will be its burn time- if I can master the everburn w/o a degree in wood/coal placement first.  Frigid weekend coming up so she's gonna get a workout.  Sounds like the dutchwest has put some folks on their knees.


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## ecocavalier02 (Jan 29, 2010)

the dutchwest did much more than put me on my knees. haha. just about sent me to my grave early


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## Troutchaser (Jan 29, 2010)

How ironic, the leyden had me on my knees last night searching for the secondary air intake.  
See About Last Night thread. . .


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