# Hydraulic chain saw question



## Dune (Apr 25, 2012)

Tree guy wants me to build a processor for him. He brings over a pole saw and says the bar and chain can both be bigger. Assuming this is true, is this thing going to have enough power to be worth the effort of adapting and installing it?


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## MotoBoyMatt (Apr 26, 2012)

I'm gonna go ahead and say no.  It'd be like cutting a 20 inch oak log with a weed eater engine.  I am a hydraulic engineer by trade and could do a power analysis if you know the displacement of the saw motor and pressure rating.  I suspect it wouldn't be near effective unless you spin it at 100,000 rpm with chain speeds approaching the speed of sound.


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## Dune (Apr 26, 2012)

MotoBoyMatt said:


> I'm gonna go ahead and say no. It'd be like cutting a 20 inch oak log with a weed eater engine. I am a hydraulic engineer by trade and could do a power analysis if you know the displacement of the saw motor and pressure rating. I suspect it wouldn't be near effective unless you spin it at 100,000 rpm with chain speeds approaching the speed of sound.


 
Looks like a Freemont, with 3/8" ports. There are some numbers but I have no idea what the displacement is. The pressure is 138 bar.
I did find what I think is a bigger high speed hydralic motor today, so I may just start from scratch.
The thing is, even if this little saw took ten times as long as a larger one, it would still be an increase in production for the guy.


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## Jags (Apr 26, 2012)

Dune said:


> The thing is, even if this little saw took ten times as long as a larger one, it would still be an increase in production for the guy.


This confuses me Dune (not really hard to do.).  Why would a person want a processor if not for output speed?  Using a tiny hydro pole saw for this seems...well...counter productive.


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## Dune (Apr 26, 2012)

Jags said:


> This confuses me Dune (not really hard to do.). Why would a person want a processor if not for output speed? Using a tiny hydro pole saw for this seems...well...counter productive.


 
Me too. I guess once a log hits the stop, 20 seconds to cut instead of 2 seconds will still be faster than bucking off a pile of logs on the ground with a gas saw.


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## Dune (Apr 26, 2012)

This is the saw;

http://store.sunriseequipment.com/Greenlee_Fairmont_Hydraulic_Chainsaw_Long_Reach_62_p/43178.htm


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## Dune (Apr 26, 2012)

If it doesn't have a prayer of working, I'll try to do something else, but this is Cape Cod after all.


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## Jags (Apr 26, 2012)

Dune said:


> This is the saw;
> 
> http://store.sunriseequipment.com/Greenlee_Fairmont_Hydraulic_Chainsaw_Long_Reach_62_p/43178.htm


Holy jeepers.  He would be better off to hawk the saw and get a proper hydro motor and put a few of the bucks saved back into the machine.


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## Jags (Apr 26, 2012)

Dune said:


> If it doesn't have a prayer of working, I'll try to do something else, but this is Cape Cod after all.


I think I just helped your Cape Cod mindset.  See above post.


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## Dune (Apr 26, 2012)

Jags said:


> Holy jeepers. He would be better off to hawk the saw and get a proper hydro motor and put a few of the bucks saved back into the machine.


 
Total joke? OK, that's why I brought the topic here. I don't know jack all about hydraulic chainsaws.


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## Jags (Apr 26, 2012)

Dune said:


> Total joke? OK, that's why I brought the topic here. I don't know jack all about hydraulic chainsaws.


I wouldn't really call it a total joke.  If he was constantly running 12" or less logs, it may have its place, but for more typical log stock its gonna be a stretch.  I would guess that the pole saw could bring a pretty penny on the market.  Turn around and put that towards a more favorable hydro motor and then build on..


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## Dune (Apr 26, 2012)

Any leads on where a decent sized motor could be sourced?


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## Jags (Apr 26, 2012)

To start off, I would try to size up what the processor is going to be dealing with.  Size that to comparable processors on the market and then look up the pump that it uses.  Keep in mind that behind this motor your gonna need a drive (pump/engine) to match the requirements.  Of course you have to figure in all the other drags, such as the splitter itself, the log mover, lifter (if needed), conveyor, blah, blah blah.


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## Dune (Apr 26, 2012)

Jags said:


> To start off, I would try to size up what the processor is going to be dealing with. Size that to comparable processors on the market and then look up the pump that it uses. Keep in mind that behind this motor your gonna need a drive (pump/engine) to match the requirements. Of course you have to figure in all the other drags, such as the splitter itself, the log mover, lifter (if needed), conveyor, blah, blah blah.


 
Thanks, I realise that, but I am working within the customer's parameters. He still thinks the little one will work, but is willing to sell it and buy a bigger one. He is going to power it with an extra circuit on a boom truck or skid steer.


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## MotoBoyMatt (Apr 26, 2012)

At minimum flow and pressure the horse power would be about 2.5 at max pressure and flow around 8, So it's in the range of decent hand held chainsaw.
Surpluscenter.com has some reasonable hydraulic parts from time to time


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## MotoBoyMatt (Apr 27, 2012)

https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=9-8287&catname=hydraulic
This one would do about 14 HP at rated pressure and flow.  Might be hard to find a large enough sprocket to make the 1116 RPM speed work unless you upgrade to harvester size chain.


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## MasterMech (Apr 27, 2012)

No thoughts of mounting a gas saw on a pivot?  Saves an awful lot of fabrication and $$.  Lots of smaller processors run this way.


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## Jags (Apr 27, 2012)

MasterMech said:


> No thoughts of mounting a gas saw on a pivot? Saves an awful lot of fabrication and $$. Lots of smaller processors run this way.


The sale of that pole saw would buy a pretty darn nice chain saw and have some bucks left over.  Down side is that a hydro saw doesn't need to stop to re-fuel.

Dune- think about a 2.5hp chainsaw trying to pull a 20-24 bar.  It sure would be underwhelming.  For a processor, I would probably be looking at a minimum of a 5 hp unit.


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## Jags (Apr 27, 2012)

Dune said:


> He is going to power it with an extra circuit on a boom truck or skid steer.


 
Is the plan to feed multiple control valves at the processor (in feed, saw, splitter will all need hydro)


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## Dune (Apr 27, 2012)

Jags said:


> Is the plan to feed multiple control valves at the processor (in feed, saw, splitter will all need hydro)


 
Yes.


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## Jags (Apr 27, 2012)

Dune said:


> Yes.


Multi-way wedge with big azz cylinder?
Do you know the flow rate of the skidder or boom?
Pressure relief settings?


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## Dune (Apr 27, 2012)

MotoBoyMatt said:


> At minimum flow and pressure the horse power would be about 2.5 at max pressure and flow around 8, So it's in the range of decent hand held chainsaw.
> Surpluscenter.com has some reasonable hydraulic parts from time to time


 
So it sounds like it would work if it were fed enough juice.


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## Jags (Apr 27, 2012)

Dune said:


> So it sounds like it would work if it were fed enough juice.


Thats why I was asking the questions of flow and pressure above.


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## Dune (Apr 27, 2012)

Jags said:


> Thats why I was asking the questions of flow and pressure above.


Still working on getting the exact specs.


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## Dune (Apr 27, 2012)

The flow for the skid steer is 19.1 gal/min. Havn't determined pressure yet. The flow should be effective for what he wants.


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## Jags (Apr 27, 2012)

Dune said:


> The flow for the skid steer is 19.1 gal/min. Havn't determined pressure yet. The flow should be effective for what he wants.


I agree that the flow will not be the bottleneck.  As a matter of fact, it should be plenty to push a big 'ol ram with some speed.  Now to get the pressure figured out and you should be on your way.


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## Dune (Apr 27, 2012)

Jags said:


> I agree that the flow will not be the bottleneck. As a matter of fact, it should be plenty to push a big 'ol ram with some speed. Now to get the pressure figured out and you should be on your way.


Yeah, I tried to look it up online, but couldn't even find a website for Case. I ended up calling the local dealer. They looked up the flow no trouble but couldn't put a # on the psi. It must be at least 2000, I would think.


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## Dune (Apr 27, 2012)

MasterMech said:


> No thoughts of mounting a gas saw on a pivot? Saves an awful lot of fabrication and $$. Lots of smaller processors run this way.


 
It was considered.


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## 711mhw (Apr 27, 2012)

There have been some pretty impressive builds documented on the Forrestry Forum and Arborsite.com, with cutting motor size and chain lube. Dune, if you dicide to build it, please don't forget your camera. I've wanted to build one for years but the stacked pumps and advanced hydraulics scare me thinking of the pile of hyd. components (and money) that I'd have that were the wrong size/part. I'd like to share a six pack with MotoBoyMatt for some edumumcation in this area, the welding/fab work is the easy part!


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## Dune (Apr 27, 2012)

711mhw said:


> There have been some pretty impressive builds documented on the Forrestry Forum and Arborsite.com, with cutting motor size and chain lube. Dune, if you dicide to build it, please don't forget your camera. I've wanted to build one for years but the stacked pumps and advanced hydraulics scare me thinking of the pile of hyd. components (and money) that I'd have that were the wrong size/part. I'd like to share a six pack with MotoBoyMatt for some edumumcation in this area, the welding/fab work is the easy part!


 
I am building it. It is a job for a customer. I never mastered pictures, but maybe I could e-mail them to you.
Thanks for the tips about the other forums.


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## Dune (Apr 28, 2012)

I found a motor. I can't google this, so if someone has time to check it out, it would be cool. Pesco Products, Cleveland Ohio. Looks aircraft. 

New part# 1?349N
Old part#   349N
Type: Gear
order number: N288S13109

Has a 5/8 splined shaft and #8 (1/2") ports.


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## Dune (Apr 29, 2012)

http://www.danzcoinc.com/html/basic_saw.html

Found this link. This company sells harvester saw motors and or saws all set up, plus a lot of other cool stuff.
Will contact them monday for price/availability/advice.

Meanwhile I am headed to the library to hopefully spec out the motor I found yesterday. I still have full google privelegdes at the library (for now).


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## 711mhw (Apr 29, 2012)

This build sounds like it might be a little bigger than what you'd have limited to a SS aux hyd circuit but I hope it helps. http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,40190.0.html  The guy is an insurance/computer type that does some real nice fab work. If you get a chance, he built a real nice band mill as well. Snoop around there.


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## MotoBoyMatt (Apr 29, 2012)

What is the model number of the skidsteer?  You may be able to find the specs you need here
http://www.colemanequip.com/CaseSkidSteerLoaders_HistoricalData.asp


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## Dune (Apr 29, 2012)

MotoBoyMatt said:


> What is the model number of the skidsteer? You may be able to find the specs you need here
> http://www.colemanequip.com/CaseSkidSteerLoaders_HistoricalData.asp


 
Awesome. 21 gallons at 3000 psi. Splitting will not be an issue. 
Thanks for the link.


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## Dune (Apr 29, 2012)

711mhw said:


> This build sounds like it might be a little bigger than what you'd have limited to a SS aux hyd circuit but I hope it helps. http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,40190.0.html The guy is an insurance/computer type that does some real nice fab work. If you get a chance, he built a real nice band mill as well. Snoop around there.


 

Found some good links in that thread, thanks.


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## MotoBoyMatt (Apr 29, 2012)

711mhw said:


> This build sounds like it might be a little bigger than what you'd have limited to a SS aux hyd circuit but I hope it helps. http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,40190.0.html The guy is an insurance/computer type that does some real nice fab work. If you get a chance, he built a real nice band mill as well. Snoop around there.


This system seems to work pretty well, it only operates one function at a time, you could do multiple functions at the same time from a single aux circuit but it would require some flow dividers.


Here are some quick numbers based on operating one function at a time.
Let me know if you want to try any other combinations, I made a quick spreadsheet and can plug the numbers in and paste the results.


Flow 19.1 GPM
Pressure 2000 PSI
Splitter Force 30 Tons
Splitter Stroke 20 Inches
Cylinder Diameter 6 Inches
Saw HP 20.1  
RAM SPEED 2.5  Inches/sec
Time to split 8.2 Seconds


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## MotoBoyMatt (Apr 29, 2012)

Here are the updated numbers for 3000 psi, drops the cylinder size down and ups the splitting speed.


Flow 19.1 GPM
Pressure 3000 PSI
Splitter Force 30 Tons
Splitter Stroke 20 Inches
Cylinder Diameter 5 Inches
Saw HP 30.1  
RAM SPEED 3.7  Inches/sec
Time to split 5.4 Seconds


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## Dune (Apr 29, 2012)

Thinking about this motor for saw, # 280-272, near the bottom of this page

http://baileynet.com/hydraulics/bailey_hydraulics_other_products/?productcategory=1000004

.58 c.i., 5000 rpm, about 12.55 gal/min, 2000 psi. 
I suppose I should look for a higher pressure motor.


Have 6" splitter piston
have char lynn 2000 motor for feed roller.


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## MotoBoyMatt (Apr 29, 2012)

Yeah, higher pressure will allow you to maximize HP (13.3 at 2k, ~20 at 3k).  12.55 GPM is the theoretical flow, realistically it will take 5-10% more flow due to internal leakage/inefficiencies.


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## Jags (Apr 30, 2012)

Oh man....I am already getting all tingly.


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## Dune (Apr 30, 2012)

Complete saw from this company http://www.danzcoinc.com/html/basic_saw.html
is pretty reasonable at $900 plus, considering what it is, but is not designed for use with quick disconnects.
This companies motor would work well for a stationary processor and the gentleman's comments about the overall costs of
running a skid steer attachment vs a small dedicated processor mean I now will likely recommend not using the skid steer.
The labor cost of the skid steer unit is lower, but the operating costs, including long term maintainnence seem to be much higher.

I really didn't want to get into building all the stuff that the skid steer mounted machine eliminates, such as an outfeed conveyor for the splits, a hydraulic power pack, hydraulic tank, operator position,  a live bed for loading logs onto the feed conveyor, a feed conveyor, a frame, a trailer, etc. but I will not be helping the guy
if his operating costs are too high.


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## Jags (Apr 30, 2012)

Dune said:


> I now will likely recommend not using the skid steer.
> .


 
I am pretty sure that you will want to stick to a fairly good sized single speed pump. Those take a decent amount of hp.  This might help in your research:

*HP = GPM X PSI X .000583*

So to run a 20 gpm pump at 2500 psi = 30 hp (just as an example).


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## Dune (Apr 30, 2012)

Jags said:


> I am pretty sure that you will want to stick to a fairly good sized single speed pump. Those take a decent amount of hp. This might help in your research:
> 
> *HP = GPM X PSI X .000583*
> 
> So to run a 20 gpm pump at 2500 psi = 30 hp (just as an example).


 
Thanks, that works.
I generaly use the rough but even simpler formula of 1 gal/min @1500 psi = 1hp

If we don't go with the skid steer set up, I asked the guy to try to find a standy reefer motor (diesel) from a reefer trailer, since he is connected to a trailer/storage outfit. We would then base the pump on what motor he finds.


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## Jags (Apr 30, 2012)

When you are talking about the skid steer, were you thinking of making the processor an attachment, or simply running a hose to the processor from the skid steer?  I ask, because if you were simply running a hose from the skid steer, you could still work on the processor and use the skid steer temporarily as the power plant till the proper plant was located.


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## Dune (Apr 30, 2012)

My push for the skid steer attachment type was that it would be less fabricating work for me. If it was last fall, I would have time to build
a trailer mounted processor with all the bells and whistles. Business is pretty seasonal out here. Too much to do all summer, not enough to do all winter.  If I do have to build the larger style, I need to do it in modular fashion, so that incrementaly, as it is built, his production increases and I can do the bulk of the work later in the year.


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## Jags (May 1, 2012)

Got it.  That should be do-able without much consternation.


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## 711mhw (May 1, 2012)

MotoBoyMatt said:


> This system seems to work pretty well, it only operates one function at a time, you could do multiple functions at the same time from a single aux circuit but it would require some flow dividers.
> 
> 
> Here are some quick numbers based on operating one function at a time.
> ...




Thanks MBMatt, not to hijack from Dune but since we're on hyd's and your the only hyd engineer I sort of know, I have a skid steer with 40 gpm @ 3300 psi and would like to convert a 3pt. (tractor) snowblower of about 84". to fit the S.S. The tractor blowers are set up for 540 rpm pto. What displacement motor (hyd) should I use? My flow on the S.S. is adjustable, but I think the pres is tied to the eng rpm and that rating (3300) is prolly at the machines rated rated (engine) hp. of 115. I don't know if there is a choice, but you know, being from WC how much hp a snowblower can eat up! What is the most powerful pump my machine will power? Thanks


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## Dune (May 1, 2012)

711mhw said:


> Thanks MBMatt, not to hijack from Dune but since we're on hyd's and your the only hyd engineer I sort of know, I have a skid steer with 40 gpm @ 3300 psi and would like to convert a 3pt. (tractor) snowblower of about 84". to fit the S.S. The tractor blowers are set up for 540 rpm pto. What displacement motor (hyd) should I use? My flow on the S.S. is adjustable, but I think the pres is tied to the eng rpm and that rating (3300) is prolly at the machines rated rated (engine) hp. of 115. I don't know if there is a choice, but you know, being from WC how much hp a snowblower can eat up! What is the most powerful pump my machine will power? Thanks


Start with the output horse power of the pto that used to run it. You have plenty of pressure but gallonage may be an issue.
Once you determine the horsepower required, a motor can be selected.


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