# Solar going in. Privacy fence or no fence?



## 7acres (Sep 29, 2016)

In mid-November the install will take place. We're going ground mount. The panels will be over 200 feet from the road. I had been planning to install a fence asap so you cannot see the panels from the road. My reason was partly that I thought they'd be ugly and partly that I don't want my neighbors to know I just spent all this money. Out where I live I worry about being the target of thieves (it's happened before). Blocking the solar bling would keep that situation neutral. 

But the installer came out today for the site evaluation. He staked out where they would be. After seeing the staggered layout and the direction they will point I think they're going to look fantastic from the road. It now seems like the beauty factor of the property will be enhanced significantly from the road by having them down in the orchard. Putting up a fence will essentially truncate my orchard in what seems in my mind's eye to be kind of awkward. 

What do you guys think? What other factors might be worth considering?


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## begreen (Sep 29, 2016)

Ask the installer about anti-theft fasteners and other security options.


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## 7acres (Sep 29, 2016)

begreen said:


> Ask the installer about anti-theft fasteners and other security options.



Thanks for the idea, begreen. Just fired off an email to the installer.


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## 7acres (Sep 29, 2016)

I was mostly thinking of thieves targeting us and breaking into the house because the panels give the impression that we've got money. I wasn't thinking they'd steal the panels themselves. Is theft of solar panels really a thing?


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## Highbeam (Sep 29, 2016)

I wouldn't expect theft of the panels, I would expect vandalism.


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## peakbagger (Sep 29, 2016)

Code requires that the wiring under the panels can not be accessible without the use of tools. Some AHJs require locked fences around the array to keep unauthorized people from access to the panel wiring. This is not required by code but some AHJs require it. I have hardware cloth attached to back of my panels covering the wiring behind the panels which is legal as a screwdriver (the tool) and a ladder is required to remove the screen. My fastener system is not theft proof but no matter what tool is used it takes a lot of patience and time to remove them due to the way they are attached. Your insurance may require a fence (rare). As far as I am concerned no need for a privacy fence, after awhile they just sort of blend in. When panels were $10 a watt there were theft issues, I expect these days they are so cheap there isn't a lot of demand for hot panels. Most have serial numbers which you should record. Practically grid tie panels are not very useful due to their higher voltages compared to the old 12 volts panels so that cuts down the demand. Ultimately I expect it comes down to vandalism. If you live in an area where sleazebags like to tag things then maybe a fence makes sense. Its not an issue in my area so I am not worried about it.

When solar panels are new most folks pay a lot of attention to them but for the vast majority of folks, they pretty well ignore them after awhile.


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## begreen (Sep 29, 2016)

Neighbor's ground mount array is right near the road in plain sight. I was concerned about vandalism but they have never had an issue in the last 6? years.


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## Where2 (Sep 29, 2016)

If I ever do a ground mount at my house in suburbia, I plan on installing a low berm around the north side (the side visible from my house and the neighbors house) to help improve the aesthetics. It will also be ultra low to the ground to limit obstruction of the view of the waterfront behind our homes.

My favorite local install is behind the local PV design/install company owners' home. The 8.6kW system has four small arrays of ground mounted panels, installed on two terraces of a retaining wall along the canal. Looking out from house and the pool patio, you look right over the ground mount arrays to the waterfront. This setup would be problematic in an area where there is deep snow in winter, but I still may employ some features of this design when I do my next install at 45°N in serious snow country.  

The grocery store strip mall adjacent to the business where I work has two large ground mounted arrays, installed on sonotubes in a retention pond for storm water runoff. Most of the year, the pond is dry and grassy, and yet the facility seems to have no vandalism problems without using fences. Honestly, considering how many times thieves have cut through the fence at the business where I work, fences (like padlocks) only serve to keep the honest folks out. The three strands of barbed wire on top of the fence where I work tends to entice thieves with bolt cutters to go through the fence. In the latest theft, they cut through three chain link fences to steal electronics and lower units off boats at the self-storage facility two businesses away. 

As peak says: "When solar panels are new most folks pay a lot of attention to them but for the vast majority of folks, they pretty well ignore them after awhile."


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## begreen (Sep 29, 2016)

Our ground mount is the opposite with the hillside sloping away from it. No complaints on looks, but we are the only ones looking at it.


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## Lake Girl (Sep 29, 2016)

If you are worried about security, get some cameras at the house. 
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00PMEG8YQ/?tag=hearthamazon-20

The cameras feed with coaxial cable so could run one out to view solar arrays as long as it's not over 984'.  How far away is the orchard?

Edit:  When you see solar arrays in my area, folks just figure you leased your land ...


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## 7acres (Oct 1, 2016)

Schletter's solution is two-fold. But it only upped my bill by $75 to include. Definitely worth it.


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## semipro (Oct 4, 2016)

7acres said:


> What do you guys think? What other factors might be worth considering?


You may also be "targeted" during outages.  My parents have very visible PV arrays and are frequently hit up by neighbors for water and food storage space during outages.  This fine if you have enough to share but could be a risk if you don't or outages are extended.


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## 7acres (Oct 4, 2016)

This is a very valid point


semipro said:


> You may also be "targeted" during outages.  My parents have very visible PV arrays and are frequently hit up by neighbors for water and food storage space during outages.  This fine if you have enough to share but could be a risk if you don't or outages are extended.



This is a very valid point. Precisely the reason I sited my whole house backup generator where it cannot be seen from the road and put a fence up around the propane tank that fuels it. The thing about the panels though is they are HUGE in comparison. Even if I put up a fence I'm afraid neighbors will discover them anyway even simply by being nosy on Google Earth. If I put up fences to the extent I would need to it gets to the point where the dynamic of curiosity starts being a factor. 

The thing with grid-tie is my house won't be powered by the panels if the grid goes down (anti-islanding). If things got to the point where people start begging for electricity/food, etc. we will have to activate the light discipline protocol so we appear out of power too. Probably the main thing in my favor to limit my exposure to this risk is that our house is on a dead end. The only people who pass our house are people that live further down the road from us. About a dozen neighbors.


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## Where2 (Oct 4, 2016)

7acres said:


> The thing with grid-tie is my house won't be powered by the panels if the grid goes down (anti-islanding).



I had to explain this to my neighbors as well. Being in a hurricane prone area (I'll get my latest storm delivered Thursday this week), I had to point out to my neighbors that when their grid is down, so is mine. I usually get a response of "then what's the point of spending all that $$$ on solar?", to which I have to respond: "A $65 electric bill in August..." In my little lot in suburbia, our grid is actually up >99% of the time. The expense of having a dedicated backup system for the rare occasion the grid goes down makes the $0.36/kWh expense of energy in Hawaii sound cheap.

Like all my neighbors, I have a portable backup generator I roll out of the garage after a hurricane takes our grid down. I haven't been out looking for it, but I'm guessing gasoline is sold out tonight (24 hours before the storm) at most local fuel stations. My neighbor said he tried to buy propane today, and couldn't find any local (tank exchange or refill your tank) suppliers who still had propane available. If we get an extended power outage following the storm Thursday, I'll be running the Engel 12V compressor refrigeration systems I've acquired, using a combination of PV and generator power. (because I have some stand alone 12V PV panels, separate from my 4.4kW array).


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## peakbagger (Oct 5, 2016)

The one minor exception is to install SMA grid tie inverters with the Secure Power Supply (SPS). They do put out up to 2000 watts AC with no battery's as long as the sun is out. Each inverter only puts out 2000 watts so instead of installing one inverter install two smaller units so you end up with two 2000 watt emergency circuits with some backup capacity if the sun is out. Better than nothing

About the best option are the folks who plug their Prius's into high voltage UPS units (minus batteries) and use the Prius battery as backup and as the generator. This combination is a lot more efficient than most home generators.


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## peakbagger (Oct 25, 2016)

I am curious if the OP ever went forward with the install of if the hurricane brought up other priorities? Hopefully he just rode through it.


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## 7acres (Oct 25, 2016)

Hi Peak, we are going forward with the install! It is scheduled to be installed mid-November. Everything has come together like clockwork on this. Wife and I didn't know whether or not we got to the game too late. But we're officially in on the rebate program with the utility now. The installer has our up front money. We signed the refi for our mortgage yesterday. On the drive home from the attorney yesterday my wife informed me of how happy she is that the solar will be in before our new baby arrives (due date is Thanksgiving day). 

I plan to start another post dedicated to the install with pictures when the week arrives. Exciting times! Thanks for all the suggestions. The feedback here definitely changed the details of the install.


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## peakbagger (Oct 25, 2016)

Great news on both parts, look forward to seeing the photos


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## begreen (Oct 25, 2016)

Awesome 7acres. Glad this is working out for you.


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## TexasGEEK (Feb 16, 2017)

"About the best option are the folks who plug their Prius's into high voltage UPS units (minus batteries) and use the Prius battery as backup and as the generator. This combination is a lot more efficient than most home generators."

I'm new here but definitely going solar and I have been looking at used Prius cars. The option of using the Prius as an emergency power source, charge batteries and use solar to charge it has me with my ears perked up!

So where do I go next to find the nuts and bolts of how to do this?


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## peakbagger (Feb 16, 2017)

There is an individual on one of the solar forums who has posted information about the Prius backup power solution. The prius has a high voltage battery so the UPS has to be specific voltage input that matches up with the Prius battery. If I remember correctly its a large UPS set up for a computer room which would have multiple batteries in series. I believe he has set of high amperage cables with high amperage connectors permanently installed in the trunk of the prius.

I think this link will get you to his post http://forum.solar-electric.com/discussion/11546/using-a-prius-as-a-generator/p1

Realize any voltage especially DC over 50 volts will kill you if you do the wrong thing. Folks with PV systems that use string inverters have similar voltages so if can be done safely, just make sure you know what you are doing and make sure you use the right wiring and connectors.

There may be later posts by him so I would suggest searching that site for his posts.


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## semipro (Feb 17, 2017)

peakbagger said:


> There is an individual on one of the solar forums who has posted information about the Prius backup power solution. The prius has a high voltage battery so the UPS has to be specific voltage input that matches up with the Prius battery. If I remember correctly its a large UPS set up for a computer room which would have multiple batteries in series. I believe he has set of high amperage cables with high amperage connectors permanently installed in the trunk of the prius.
> 
> I think this link will get you to his post http://forum.solar-electric.com/discussion/11546/using-a-prius-as-a-generator/p1
> 
> ...


I have researched this option quite a bit for our hybrid Highlander which has a 288 VDC nominal battery.  The Prius voltage is lower as I recall, around 240 VDC.  The primary drawback that I've discovered with using a data center UPS is that they may not be well suited for continuous operation.  Also, unless you only need 120 VAC you'll have to find a UPS that has a split phase 240 VAC output or alternatively install a phase splitting transformer to feed into both both legs of you breaker box.  

This company advertises an out of the box solution for the Prius.  http://priups.com/


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## peakbagger (Feb 17, 2017)

Good someone has more experience with it than I. I have messed with computer grade UPS's and there are different types. Some pass the power through the batteries all the time why others only kick in the batteries when needed. I installed one on very dirty three phase line that was derived from two phase hydroelectric plant (turn of the 19th century tech still running in the 2000's), this unit was on line continuously cleaning up the power and ran 24/7 until we lost a battery as it was series stack of cells.

If someone has gone to the trouble of working out the details I would strongly urge someone not to kludge one.


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## georgepds (Feb 18, 2017)

The chevy volt is also used as a generator

The inverter  connection is made to the 12 v battery , which is replenished by the large battery, which is replenished by the gas engine

Max output is 1500 Watts

The benefit is the energy storage of the gas tank, and the efficiency buffer othe large battery( means the gasengine does not have to keep running continuously)


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