# Empyre Elite 100.



## john84 (Nov 11, 2013)

I am looking for reviews from anyone who has this unit. Is it really as simple to operate as they say? I currently am using a wood stove but am very interasted in a boiler. I am looking to heat a 2400 sq foot house and a 26x26 garage. Also are these units running good without storage?

Thanks


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## maple1 (Nov 11, 2013)

Do some searching - been a few threads in the past. Should be a couple guys along to maybe give more input.


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## willyswagon (Nov 12, 2013)

The 3 main points I need to stress are
#1 you can't process wood like your fellow wood burners, you must get ahead of it and burn DRY WOOD
#2 You don't load it up so you don't have to relight the boiler(relighting is no longer a chore because you have DRY WOOD)
#3 Clean your boiler tubes and remove ashes every week( very little ash because you're using DRY WOOD)
Look for the V2 or second version of the boiler. You can tell if it is a V2 if it has a small inspection plate on the inside of the door(right hand side)
It will also have a stainless steel firebox. Although I don't have storage yet, everyone says they work even better with storage.


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## john84 (Nov 12, 2013)

I understand about the dry wood. I have some oak that's around 15%. Just split some maple for next year. So you feel that the boiler works as advertised? No creosote in the chimney and low flue temps? The boiler would be hooked up to a hydro air system. I'm not against looking at a different boiler, I just liked the simple design and operation of the empyre.


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## willyswagon (Nov 12, 2013)

I can't comment on how it would work with a air  system. Just keep in mind that they work best when burning WIDE OPEN!
So to do so I load just enough wood to get me through to the next available time for a loading.


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## treefrog359 (Nov 12, 2013)

well I have a elite 200  and you do not need storage with this stove. I have had both versions and I hate them both.  when they make changes to the stove they go the wrong way and make it harder to operate.


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## john84 (Nov 12, 2013)

Not to touch a sore subject but what don't you like? And what did you like if anything. Any info good or bad I'd like to hear

Thanks


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## timbur (Nov 12, 2013)

john84 said:


> I am looking for reviews from anyone who has this unit. Is it really as simple to operate as they say? I currently am using a wood stove but am very interasted in a boiler. I am looking to heat a 2400 sq foot house and a 26x26 garage. Also are these units running good without storage?
> 
> Thanks



[ Is it really as simple to operate as they say?]   Yes
[ I am looking to heat a 2400 sq foot house and a 26x26 garage.]    You'll want to step up to the Elite 200
[ Also are these units running good without storage? ] Yes

I am using a XT 100 to heat my 2600 sq ft shop to 68 deg with in floor radiant .
Just for kicks I filled it about 3/4 full last night and didn't need to refill it until this evening . I normally load it with 4pc 6" [approx] x 24" splits twice a day .

For a full disclosure I am a dealer , but beings you're in Mass I'll not be selling you a stove . The other 2 brands I sell are only conventional outdoor units . From my experience in burning standard units , the Elite used 1/2 to 1/3 the amount of wood while burning with no smoke .

Now I want to sit back and listen everybody else's response , especially treefrog359 , tell us what you didn't like about your unit's .


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## CUCV (Nov 13, 2013)

I have a 200 pro and it was easy to install and is easy to operate.  I purchased a new/used home last December and purchased the 200 pro because I could install it indoors our outdoors.  Being from NH and already in the heating season I quickly installed it outdoors even though I have the space and wanted to eventually install it indoors.  Growing up we heated 100% with wood in wood stoves and indoor furnaces.  I absolutely love having the boiler outside, I handle the wood so much less.
I agree that you may be better off with the 200 model for your location and heating area.
I only have one heating season under my belt.  I had great success burning dry pine and it pruduces significantly less ash than when I burned hardwood. 
The only problem I encountered was a failed blower near the end of the season.
I do not have storage at this time.


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## john84 (Nov 13, 2013)

Timbur what's the current price on the 100/200? I thought the 200 might be to big. The house is only 3 yrs old and well insulated. And the garage I probably would only heat to 50 or so unless I was working out there. What's a ballpark for the actually install not including the boiler. Thanks again for any feedback


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## Woodfarmer1 (Nov 14, 2013)

i'm heating a 1500 sf slab and another 1600 sf with tubes in my floor joist and a 40 gallon hwt tank. i cannot get any more than an 8hr burn. I'm burning seasoned beech.
does anyone think i need storage?


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## maple1 (Nov 14, 2013)

Trying to get long burns in a gasifier will hurt performance & increase maintenance by generating more creosote from increased periods of idling. Not sure I'd say you'd 'need' storage, but it would improve things - likely a lot.


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## Woodfarmer1 (Nov 14, 2013)

So how would i run this more efficiently? two hot fires in 24hrs, its my first year with the boiler, i grew up on woodstoves and wood furnaces, pour the wood to them


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## maple1 (Nov 14, 2013)

What do you have for a boiler?

Pouring the wood in generally isn't good if there isn't demand for the heat it will make. If you don't have 'real' storage to store the heat, some get by by making smaller fires, and also sort of using their house & slabs for storage - say maybe when you're buring at the hottest, running the house up a couple degrees more than usual & then letting it coast to a couple degrees less than usual after the fire goes down/out. Maybe also heating your DHW tank up higher when you're burning - but you'd likely want to mix the hot out to avoid burns at the tap if you don't already & started doing that.


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## Woodfarmer1 (Nov 14, 2013)

Elite 100, i'll try that


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## arbutus (Nov 14, 2013)

Woodfarmer1 said:


> i'm heating a 1500 sf slab and another 1600 sf with tubes in my floor joist and a 40 gallon hwt tank. i cannot get any more than an 8hr burn. I'm burning seasoned beech.
> does anyone think i need storage?


 

Do you have a good heat loss estimate?
You might be at the limit of the machine's capacity.
Profab claims and 8 hour burn output of 66,000 btu/hr.


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## pelletdude (Nov 14, 2013)

Dealers in Massechusetts
SJB Construction- Charleton
Lawton Sugarhouse in Williamsburg
Higgins Energy - Barre


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## treefrog359 (Nov 14, 2013)

timbur said:


> [ Is it really as simple to operate as they say?]   Yes
> [ I am looking to heat a 2400 sq foot house and a 26x26 garage.]    You'll want to step up to the Elite 200
> [ Also are these units running good without storage? ] Yes
> 
> ...


 
there are many things I do not like about the new 200.  lets start at the back of the stove. the back door is not deep enough and I have to bow mine in order to get it to close  around the pump. then between the first model and second model they changed the heat exchanger clean out door location.  it is now a knuckle buster when you clean out the heat exchanger tubes. then pro fab dose not learn from past problems and covers the hole stove in powder coating. locations such as the heat exchanger cover gets so sticky that you can not take off.   in the front of the stove the run load lever is getting very sticky and hard to open and close.  now for my biggest problem with the new stove. my lower chamber keeps filling full of embers in 3 to 4 days. I am getting very sick of cleaning embers out and recycling them.  I am just waiting for the next problem to pop up.   I can not get any help from profab


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## CUCV (Nov 15, 2013)

treefrog can you post pictures of your problem areas like lack of area for the pump behind the back door?  A friend who also has a 200 which is way oversized for his heat load, he has also had problems with the lower chamber filling with embers.  He found he was overloading the stove, by partially loading he solved the problem.  I have not encountered the problem probably because my heat load is well sized for the boiler.  I was disapointed after purchasing the boiler then finding that I needing to purchase and install the optimizer and circulator pump on the back of the unit.  I really feel this should have been done by the manufacturer.

I figure I spent about $3000 in materials to install my boiler.  Since its is outside I have 40' of insulated pex, 16' of chimney and a cap which account for about half the install costs.  Then we have the two pumps, wire, optimizer, black iron pipes and fittings to mount the optimizer, heat exchanger, copper pipes and fittings to tie in the heat exchanger, 4 valves and pump flanges.


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## john84 (Nov 15, 2013)

Who is actually burning an elite 100 how many square feet are you heating?  Do you think the boiler is handling it ok?


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## mustash29 (Nov 15, 2013)

1st generation Elite 100, factory refurbished with SS firebox liner, not installed or firing it yet, still burning the old way.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/gasser-about-to-pull-the-trigger.111869/


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## willyswagon (Nov 15, 2013)

Elite 100 V1 heating 2700sq ft plus a 66sq ft garage. It has been doing everything I need it to do.

I'd love to have storage for weather like we are about to have for the next 5 days! To dam warm out!


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## john84 (Nov 16, 2013)

Willy do you have yours installed indoors in the basement? Fairly easy install?


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## willyswagon (Nov 16, 2013)

Mine is in the attached garage, up on cement blocks to meet insurance regulations. The install took them half a day to put in the flue, place the boiler and secure the Hx to the wall. And then one other day to plumb it and hook up the pumps to my oil boiler 50' away.

The install is here.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/the-time-has-come.90243/


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## Woodfarmer1 (Nov 19, 2013)

last night finally got all the air out of the system, as arbutus suggested i do a heat loss calc. just havnt had time to find it. i'm hoping once i get everything up to temp. that the boiler will carry the laod.


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## ME Boatbuilder (Nov 23, 2013)

I have a 100 heating about 4000' including domestic hot water.  No problems keeping up.  I will admit, it's very well insulated - about R 50-60 in attic.  Cold nights last year (-10 F & windy) it would last just under 8 hrs.  Without the wind (I'm wide open to NW winds) it went over 8.  Normal nights, say 5-10 F, I'd get 10-12 hour burns.  I think the 200 is overkill for a 2600' house & garage.

I do not have storage, yet.  I absolutely plan on installing it as I can already see all kinds of operational benefits.
Yes, it is simple to operate.  Yes, I get ember build up when it's warmer out & have to clean more often.  But I don't see that as a surprise without storage.  That is part of the reason I'll put in storage.

Mine is in a dedicated boiler house & wood shed unattached from the house.  I like the additional safety factor, cleanliness, and less wood handling.


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## arbutus (Nov 23, 2013)

Welcome ME Boatbuilder!

If you have a picture or two of your shed and install I would appreciate seeing them!
How much wood do you burn each year?


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## john84 (Nov 30, 2013)

Me boatbuilder I'm also interasted in pics. Also what do you think the install cost? Anything you wish you did different?


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## Woodfarmer1 (Dec 11, 2013)

The high limit of my boiler is 180, I have 170 at my manifold, supply in my slab is 120 and return 80. Main floor 140 and 130.  
I load the boiler at 9 pm, I put the manifold pump on a timer to shut off at 3am, main floor I turned the thermo down to 67 and basement slab at 80. 
At 6am the slab supply and return is 80, and the boiler temp was 180.
I thought the heated slab would carry the load overnight, at 18 deg outside tonight, but it won't.
At least the boiler is staying up to temp.
Now what do I do install ? Gallons of storage


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## maple1 (Dec 11, 2013)

I'm not sure I understand. Sounds like you turned the heat off to the slab (manifold pump off at 3am, slab turned down to 80?), but your boiler was still hot? So why turn things down so much? I must have missed something, sorry.


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## Woodfarmer1 (Dec 11, 2013)

I am trying to use the slab to store thermal mass for overnight , I was only getting a 5-6 hour burn.  We thought the boiler may be drawing heat out of the house during the night, (hence the manifold timer,)in the morning the fire is out and boiler temp was down around 120 so one fire to heat the boiler back up and then reload within a couple hours to get manifold temp back up to 170.
My heat loss is 40k and boiler output is 60k, so I'm alright there.

I have 1500 sf in slab and 1700 sf in I floor joist


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## woodsmaster (Dec 11, 2013)

Heat your slab up more to get you threw the night ?


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## maple1 (Dec 11, 2013)

Have you throughly heated up your slab? If it is not totally up to temp when you shut the heat off to it, it will suck the heat out of the water that's in it. A heat-soaked slab should coast through a night with not a lot of heat needed to maintain, I would think. Getting a slab heat-soaked might take a couple of days of heating. Is the slab well insulated underneath & on the edges?


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## Woodfarmer1 (Dec 11, 2013)

The max temp I'm putting in it is 130, how much will 4 " of concrete take?


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## maple1 (Dec 11, 2013)

I'm out of this one now - I don't have a slab so have no experience to speak from. But I don't think I'd go any higher. The thing is it takes time to get a slab totally warm, and not necessarily hotter water.


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## henfruit (Dec 11, 2013)

This a question for boiler man. He heats his slab with his attack boiler.


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## Woodfarmer1 (Dec 11, 2013)

And a lot of wood, I just hate to have to turn the propane boiler on yet


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## __dan (Dec 11, 2013)

maple1 said:


> I'm out of this one now - I don't have a slab so have no experience to speak from. But I don't think I'd go any higher. The thing is it takes time to get a slab totally warm, and not necessarily hotter water.



I would say you're right on the money, exactly right.



Woodfarmer1 said:


> The max temp I'm putting in it is 130, how much will 4 " of concrete take?



I'm running the basement slab for storage. It does a lot for you but there is a lot going on, other factors.

I'm running a fixed, reset, basement slab water temp of 130 F. I would not go over that but running it longer, more time, makes a big difference. I poured 1200 sf of 4", 4000 psi, wire reinforced, fully floating on 2" EPS foam, and thermal breaked at the edges.There were zero cracks in the slab, but now that I'm heating it I can see a few hairline micro cracks that travel 2 to 3 ft and stop because of the steel wire mats. The cracks are few and hard to find, but were zero before the heat.  I would say I'm maxing out what the slab can both absorb and emit for heat. I could bump the slab water temp up, but the next move would be tank storage.

It really depends on if you are battling the load or battling the heat loss. You may go higher on the slab temp but the downside is cracking of the slab. If you are losing too much from the slab before it gets upstairs, higher water temp will not help you there. You can moderate the house temp with the slab but another complementary method may be indicated.

I just scanned the basement slab with the IR gun and the sweep temps ranges from 83 to 96 F with 1' spacing of the PEX. Basement air temp running 73 F. The slab, all heat, was just off for ~ 9 hrs and is coming up from setback with a fire for the last hour.

Air temp in the house regularly swings from 70 to 62 F, but that's the atomic clock on the window sill, in the window 6" from the glass. IR scan of all the solid surfaces, entire house, is 64 to 67 F, just now, coming up from no heat overnight. Outside air is 27 F at 10:00 AM.

A lot depends on the heat loss, which is very low for my house, R 40 walls, R 50 ceilings, Andersen 400 windows, 2" EPS foam wrapping the exterior of the foundation.. Radiant heat is very slow, but penetrating. When the heat has been running, there are really no high or low spots, the heat penetrates and spreads out, but it takes time. Radiant stores the heat in the mass of the house, not the air, but most of the materials are insulators and it takes time while the mass of the house, the heat is travelling from warm > cool to warm > warm through insulators.

The basement slab moderates the house temp, but there is a delay getting the heat upstairs. It is weeks or months of daily firings to equalize the high and low spots in the slab. If I scan the slab in January it will read 85 to 95 F.

I would recommend both slab storage and tank, each does a little, but a lot depends on how much heat is lost from the basement before it gets upstairs.

Sorry I did not read the entire thread


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## willyswagon (Dec 11, 2013)

I'm not sure why you let it shut off. It takes days to get my garage slab up to temp if I let it get cold. I set the thermostat in the garage @ 15*C, and allow it to cycle just as the house does. Set it and forget it.


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## maple1 (Dec 11, 2013)

Is the slab well insulated underneath & on the edges?


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## Woodfarmer1 (Dec 11, 2013)

Great info Dan thanks, I'm just new to the boiler this year so it will be a steep learning curve.

I shut it off at 3am because I was only getting a 5-6 hour burn and then waking to a cooled down boiler from 120-140 degrees, the empyre shuts off the circ pump below 140 to prevent condensation and then it takes a full burn to get it up to 180 before it turns the pump on to send it into the house.



I have 4" of ship lap styrofoam sm under 4" of concrete with an IFC foundation, 25' walkout on one end, which is also IFC, the only thing we didn't do was a thermal break under the 9' patio door where the concert floor was poured right out over the frost wall, oops. It will know have to wait until next spring to dig it up and insulate


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## maple1 (Dec 11, 2013)

Is this a new boiler, or just new to you? The Elite has gone thru some changes, not sure if that would be any issue here or not.

Have you measured your actual floor temps as dan mentioned doing above?

If you haven't burned steady & long enough to heat all that concrete up to temp, it will act more like a big ice cube instead of a radiator. That will take a while, and can take all the heat the boiler can put out until it gets there.


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## Woodfarmer1 (Dec 11, 2013)

The boiler is used, four years old.  
I haven't taken a floor reading


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## willyswagon (Dec 11, 2013)

I would let the slab take every bit of heat it needs. It will take loads(in the boiler) to bring that mass up to temperature. And until you get it up there the boiler is fighting for it's life to due so. It was the same when I used oil.

I'm running the same boiler as you. It is presently -8*C with a windchill of -15. I filled the boiler about 3/4 last night with a 50/50 mix of maple and spruce. Went down this morning(7 am) to a bed of coals about a1' (yep one foot) thick. Stirred them up, put in two 4" maple rounds, and two 5-6" spruce and left for the day.  It is now 7 pm and I have not opened the boiler yet as it continues to cycle from 165-180. When I notice it dropping to 160 on the low side, I'll put in tonight's load.


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## maple1 (Dec 11, 2013)

I'd get on top of this as soon as possible. You've got a decent unit there that should be able to heat you very capably. Read up on the changes that have been done to the Empire. Being four years old, it might be missing some improvements that were made to it. They've been talked about on here before, just have to do some searching. May be an issue, may not be.

But another larger secondary issue that might come sneaking up on you, maybe in a very bad way but hopefully not, is keeping all that cold water running into the boiler. Do you know if it has return temp protection? I'm not sure if that was in the improvements made or not, or if it had it from the get go. If it doesn't, it is getting a steady diet of cold return water that will make big condensation inside and possibly lead to boiler rot. The return water entering back into the boiler should be kept above 140°f. So the longer this situation goes on, the worse things could possibly get. If you do have return temp protection, just keep burning steady until your slab gets up to temp. Other Empire owners can help you out with specific questions, there's some good ones on here right in this thread. I'd try to get a decent temp gun to help with the analyzing. And pics help also.


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## willyswagon (Dec 11, 2013)

Punch in Empyre Elite to the search box.
It will lead you to some grewat reading.
Why did the previous owner sell it?
 Have the tubes been cleaned out with the Flue Active Tool?

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/keep-it-clean.105710/#post-1375435

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/empyre-elite-owb.91560/page-2#post-1408313

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/empyre-elite-100-pounding-out-the-heat.102653/


Start there, then ask away.


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## Woodfarmer1 (Dec 11, 2013)

previous owner saidd the boiler interferred with his expensive cnc lathe equipment, i have used the rotary tool from empyre.  Temp at burn.

30 plate heat exchanger in shop(not heated yet, 2000sf.) this circ pump will shut off and not restart until the boiler is up to about 160, it is plugged into the back of the boiler.


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## Woodfarmer1 (Dec 11, 2013)

supply enters the bottom pipe attached is the munchkin aquastat, top valves are supply and return from the mucnchkin, to the right is the return from the main manifold.

The hot water then goes to a 20 plate exchanger for my dhw, then thru the top pipe to the munchkin valves.

then the two pipes at the ceiling the one on the right is supply, goes clockwise thru the cast iron and supplies the upper floor then the basement slab to expansion tank and then the pump that sends the water back out in insulated pex to the boiler in shop 40' feet away,  burried 5' down.


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## Woodfarmer1 (Dec 11, 2013)

main floor supply being pulled through seven runs by a grundfos pump and the mixing valve above. The one on the right is for the main floor and the one on the left is the basement slab.

Lastly pressure guage, expansion tank and Wilo sending the return back out to boiler.  That is all i know gentlemen


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## willyswagon (Dec 11, 2013)

Does your system have the Optimizer on the back of the boiler to ensure that the return water temp to the boiler never gets below 140*?

_it can be partially seen to the left hand side of the picture in post #18 of this thread.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/the-time-has-come.90243/#post-1178600 

_


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## Woodfarmer1 (Dec 11, 2013)

No optimizer, just the disc in the boiler that regulates the pump when plugged into the back of the boiler.  I called empyre told them what I had and they wanted $600 for the optimizer, I told them as a customer service standpoint if they know there is a problem with their early models then they should be supplying this just as an auto manufacturer does recalls....no dice they said if I don't buy it then no warranty.  Both dealers in my area are over an hours drive away, I have been waiting for a month for him to show.

Like I mentioned in an earlier post, I do notice that the circ pump does not come on until the boiler reaches close to 160 degrees and it does seem to shut the pump off when the temp drops below 140.


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## arbutus (Dec 11, 2013)

I have an email from Empyre that states that a Danfoss valve and 140 degree thermostat is an acceptable alternate to their optimizer and will maintain warranty.  Get it in writing for yourself.  Much less expensive, but it might require your pump to swap locations.


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## __dan (Dec 11, 2013)

Woodfarmer1 said:


> I have 4" of ship lap styrofoam sm under 4" of concrete with an IFC foundation, 25' walkout on one end, which is also IFC, the only thing we didn't do was a thermal break under the 9' patio door where the concert floor was poured right out over the frost wall, oops. It will know have to wait until next spring to dig it up and insulate



Nice, nice, nice. I actually wish builds like that were standardized in the codes, built to last and perform over many lifetimes. Put the heat to that slab, 130 F injected into the slab may actually be on the high side.

It's not clear to me without rereading the thread what problem you are having, is it just the learning curve or are you having trouble with something specific.

The slab for storage is a big flywheel. It takes a lot more energy to bring it up to temp compared to just maintaining at temp. I would guesstimate about two to four days of daily firings before the slab is coasting in the operating temp range and is not soaking a lot of extra heat coming up in temp. The system should be substantially more efficient compared to a stove, should be less fuel, more heat.

http://www.amazon.com/Raytek-MT6-Non-contact-MiniTemp-Thermometer/dp/B000O80B5M


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## willyswagon (Dec 11, 2013)

All I can say is that I have done all of the updates, and added all of the systems that Pro Fab has suggested, and I'm getting lots of heat and great burn times.
I would also be looking at insulating all of your piping to ensure that the heat gets to where you need it to be.


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## maple1 (Dec 11, 2013)

Woodfarmer1 said:


> Like I mentioned in an earlier post, I do notice that the circ pump does not come on until the boiler reaches close to 160 degrees and it does seem to shut the pump off when the temp drops below 140.


 
Yes, but where is that temp measured at? Assuming it's at the top of the boiler, or anywhere except right where the return enters, the return entering will be quite a bit cooler than the 140. Can you measure the return water temp just before it enters the boiler? With cold return water, it will struggle bringing that slab up to temp and make big condensation. I would make sure that return water entering the boiler stays above 140 - you're shortening its life if not. If you don't have an Optimizer or a Danfoss/similar, I'd get on it right away.

Also, it might just be me, but those two mixing valves don't quite look right - if I'm looking right. I think both loops run supply on right (going up), and return on the left (going down), with the circs pulling thru the loops? It looks like the upstairs/right loop has the zone return coming in via the port opposite the green knob, while the floor/left loop has zone supply going out via the same port opposite the green knob. Which makes me think one of them might be plumbed wrong? But like I said, might just be me.

By what Willys has posted and how his is working, you've got a good unit there - just need to get the kinks ironed out.


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## mustash29 (Dec 11, 2013)

How much did you pay for a used 4 year old model?  I'm just curious.

I still haven't fired my Elite 100.  I'm hoping to have it up an running by Jan 1.

I believe mine is a '11 model that was fired for 1 or 2 seasons before it developed a leak, possibly due to not being plumbed with low return temp protection.  The previous owner had the hot supply going to a HX and the cold HX return going straight back to the boiler.  I am not sure of how the pumps were wired or running.  There was a wood pump and an oil "wrap around" pump.  Also no idea of the wood quality, moisture content, etc he was burning.

I've done a TON of reading about these boilers, here's a few points to consider that may not have been directly discussed before.

The first generation boilers (serial number below 300) had the hot supply connection on the rear top center and the cold return on the rear bottom center.  The 2nd generation boilers (with SS fire box liner) have the hot supply and cold return both mounted up high on the rear of the unit.  I don't know the reason for this.  Possibly to mix the cooler return with the hotter water at the top of the unit?  The only reason I noticed this is the fact that the install drawings for the 2 models differ slightly.  The pics of the rear of the unit and how the ports are labeled differ.

1st gen's have a 140 deg snap disc mounted near the fan & main temp probe which is wired to a pump plug pigtail.  This was used to shut the pump down when boiler temp goes below 140.  The problem I see with this feature is that very cold return water could still be flowing into the bottom of the boiler, significantly cooling the lower portion of the 60 gallon water jacket, while the boiler would be firing and putting out warmer water.  Since that 140 deg snap disc is mounted up high next to the main temp probe, it is entirely possible that the boiler could run for long periods of time with moderate supply temps, cold return temps, a lot of thermal shock & a lot of cool water at the lower portion of the boiler, around the horizontal portions of the HX tubes and around the lower portion of the firebox where the vertical walls meet the sloping refractory floor.  These are the know areas of corrosion.

Maybe it would have been better if that snap disc was mounted at the bottom of the unit right at the return port?

The cyclic nature of the snap disc and pump on/off cycles seems like it was a cheap way of providing low temp protection.  During this time period, you would be in a firing state but have no forced flow through the water jacket with no mixing of the water.  Then boiler temp warms up and the pump launches again and sends another slug of cold water into the unit.  Repeat.

The 2nd gen boilers do not have the snap disc pump control or the pump pigtail plug in the back.  The 2nd gen install directions tell you to run the boiler pump 24/7.  I assume this is to keep the water moving and mixing within the boiler.

My factory refurbished 1st gen boiler now has the SS firebox liner.  It still has the snap disc, pump plug & corresponding wiring schematic.  The new owners manual it was shipped with also has the correct wiring schematic.  However, the install instructions tell you to NOT use that pump pigtail and say to wire the pump to another power source to run 24/7 when the boiler is firing and to use the ESO for protection.

The Empyre System Optomizer is essentially a pump, 140 deg Danfoss valve, and a low head loss manifold with closely spaced T's.  IMO it is a $300 - 350 assembly that sells for $500 - 600.  You can do the same job with a few fittings, pump & Danfoss for half the price.

The ESO or Danfoss setup would keep the boiler pump running 24/7, keep the water in the jacket properly mixed and always above the 140 setpoint of the Danfoss, will allow the boiler water to run at higher temps for improved efficiency, recover faster, and with fewer thermal shock issues or corrosion potential.


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## willyswagon (Dec 12, 2013)

Woodfarmer1

If you don't have something set up to ensure the boiler is receiving return water that is 140*, the boiler will chew through wood as it fights to bring it self up to temperature only to have it slapped back down by a gulp of cold water. Repeat over and over.

The best way to show what is happening is to set your oven to 425*. As it is heating up, time how fast it gets to 350*.
Now slam in a tray of frozen french fries and time how long it takes for the oven to struggle the last 75* to get to 425*.
The addition of the cold(water in your boiler, or fries in your oven), results in the inefficient operation of the heating device.

Mustash

Great info above, I believe version 2 is much later than #300 as I have #447 and mine is a V1.

The optimizer was not part of the original price quote from my dealer, but when he came to install it he put it on at no additional charge, as he said without it there was no warranty.
He said it was a cost of $380 that he would eat to ensure the system works properly.
I have changed the door handle to the upgrade kit.

I have drilled the air passages on both the left side of the boiler, and the lower air passage. These ports get cleaned once a month during the shoulder seasons.

I have also replaced the insulation behind my fire brick and placed my brick in such a way that I was able to caulk the upper brick edge with stove cement.
This stops any future creosote from going behind the bricks.

When I was looking into boilers, I spoke to the factory rep(Ben DeBrun), he walked me through the running of the boiler. Basically he stated run it hot and hard. Place enough wood in the boiler to bring things up to temp, and from there, figure how much wood you are going to need to put in the boiler so when you return there is just a bed of coals 4-6" thick left. Basically match load to demand.

If either of you need part numbers for you machines, I have the parts breakdown available to me.


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## Woodfarmer1 (Dec 12, 2013)

My serial # is 150 so it's one of the original, I will have to contact them again about the optimizer....

The good news is I have after 3 days satisfied the slab, I loaded last night at 10pm the slab temp was maintained at 100, the boiler was 166 this morning at 6:30, still burning and a full bed of red hot coals.

However I had to sacrifice heating the main floor turned the thermostat back to 67 last night, today I will only send heat to the slab and turn the main floor back on when I get home tonight to make sure the slab stays hot.


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## maple1 (Dec 12, 2013)

Good to hear some progress. Things should improve some now that you have things up to temp. Keep at the return temp thing though, I guess mustash's story about the history of his shows the bad that could come of it.


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## mustash29 (Dec 12, 2013)

Cliff notes:

The origonal owner of my unit developed a water leak.  He put the house up for sale.  The house failed inspection because the wood and oil boilers were sharing the same flue.  Owner had the Empyre disconnected & sent out to ProFab to be refurbished under warranty.  It came back with a stainless firebox liner, all new refractory brick, gaskets, etc.  It is absolutely clean & spotless everywhere I can see (although I have not taken it all appart, removed the skins, etc) and returned the unit to the owner's walkout basement.

The home buyer had no interest in the Empyre & did not want to install another flue pipe.  He had the old ailing oil boiler replaced with something new and had a Mega Stor MS40 indirect installed to the tune of 9000.  He sold me the Empyre to help offset that "outstanding" plumbing bill.

The way I see it, I essentially got a brand new boiler, 30 plate HX, two 15-58 pumps and roughly 12 feet of "wood to oil" copper & fittings for about 35 cents on the dollar.

I'm still in the process of system planning & modifying my current arrangement (flue, oil system, etc).  Funny how fast time passes when you are having fun, LOL.


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## mustash29 (Dec 12, 2013)

willyswagon said:


> Woodfarmer1
> 
> The optimizer was not part of the original price quote from my dealer, but when he came to install it he put it on at no additional charge, as he said without it there was no warranty.
> He said it was a cost of $380 that he would eat to ensure the system works properly.
> ...


 
Dealer eating 380 for customer satisfaction.  That is a good man right there

Please explain this drilling of air passages.  I have not heard of this.  Maybe it is not required with the stainless liner?

I do not believe I have insulation blankets between the firebox wall and brick.  I'll have to check into that.

My local dealer origonally sold my unit, and was involved with the warranty refurbishment process.  Unfortunately, he is no longer an Empyre dealer and no longer the North East sales rep from what I understand.  "Business decision" were the only words he mentioned.  He did recommended I purchase the unit at the price range of what the seller was asking.  He also said to plumb the boiler properly, keep up with water chemistry, and load it according to heat demand.  It likes to run.  It can idle, but we all know that avoiding idling is best.  I don't think anyone has anything bad to say about storage.

I think I should have a chat with this Mr. Ben DeBrun to find out any particulars of my unit.


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## willyswagon (Dec 12, 2013)

Woodfarmer1 said:


> My serial # is 150 so it's one of the original, I will have to contact them again about the optimizer....
> 
> .


 
Also ask about the air gate upgrade, and for the information on the air gate clening procedures.
 Also ask them to send you the diagram showing where to drill the air passage to keep it clean and improve air flow.

Ben is a great source of knowledge on these units.


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## pelletdude (Dec 12, 2013)

mustash29 said:


> Dealer eating 380 for customer satisfaction.  That is a good man right there
> 
> Please explain this drilling of air passages.  I have not heard of this.  Maybe it is not required with the stainless liner?
> 
> ...


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## pelletdude (Dec 12, 2013)

Good Luck with the new boiler - the boiler does have insulation behind the bricks. Put in a Danfoss Valve if you don't have the Optimizer - Don't remember if you got one. Run it hot and it will be good.


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## willyswagon (Dec 13, 2013)

Woodfarmer1 said:


> My serial # is 150 so it's one of the original, I will have to contact them again about the optimizer....
> 
> The good news is I have after 3 days satisfied the slab, I loaded last night at 10pm the slab temp was maintained at 100, the boiler was 166 this morning at 6:30, still burning and a full bed of red hot coals.
> 
> However I had to sacrifice heating the main floor turned the thermostat back to 67 last night, today I will only send heat to the slab and turn the main floor back on when I get home tonight to make sure the slab stays hot.




Now that you have your slab to temp, I find it best to set it and forget it. I run the garage about 12-15* C in this weather( presently -17*C, with light winds WSW 20 - 35kph).
 Last night I pulled the car in about 1000, loaded the boiler full, set the garage to 15* to ensure the car was fully dry for today, ensured the main level was set @ 20* and the upper @ 18*( wife and kids like it cool to sleep).
Got up at 600 this morning, bumped up the heat upstairs to 20*, went out to stir the coals in the boiler, only to find that I misjudged the heat demand, as there is about 18" of coals/ charcoal left in the boiler. I won't ad anything until lunch.

Get a hold of Ben at Pro Fab and ask about modifications to the boilers as mentioned above, put on the low temp water protection and enjoy!


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## Woodfarmer1 (Dec 13, 2013)

well it was short lived, woke up this mornign to 58 in the cathedral end and 64 in the center of the house.  the temp of the interior water was down to 80 and the boiler read 160 but the snap disk had shut the pump off in the night as it was cold.  the basement stayed at 79.

this is part of the problem a large cathedral space 25x32 with 20' sidewalls height and 32' floor to peak with lots of windows. it has hickory engineered flooring with the pex in the floor joist and insulated with 4" pink fiberglass.

i now will have to wait for the experts to get here or turn the propane boiler on cause this ain't workin


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## maple1 (Dec 13, 2013)

Whoa - that's a big heat load.

Some nice though.


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## mustash29 (Dec 13, 2013)

Beautiful room, but that seems like an awfull lot of heat loss hurting you there.

The boiler has an over temp protection snap disc near the temp probe and fan that requires a manual reset if it trips.  Is that one staying "on" ok for you?

It sounds like the pump snap disc is shutting off, correct?  If it trips the pump off it should also restart the pump when the boiler recovers.  Is your pump cycling off & back on or shutting off and staying off?

If it is staying off, there is most likely a problem with the snap disc.

If it is cycling off & on a lot, then it is like we said above, the slugs of cold return water are drowning the boiler in cold water.  This will cause a loss of thermal efficiency, possibly a loss of quality gassification and low BTU output similar to if you were burning wet wood.

Also similar to if your car thermostat fails or sticks open, fuel MPG (km's per gal) will drop because the computer will never go into closed loop operation and look at the O2 sensor in the exhaust to fine tune the fuel injection, and the heat won't get hot.

Again, this is where the 24/7 pump and thermostatic valve will help.  The boiler water will stay mixed up, the boiler should run more efficiently and gassify better and make good BTU's.  Once it is happy the thermostat valve will slowly admitt heat to the building and slowly mix those cold returns back into the boiler.  Similar to the radiant concept, it will take a while and several long burns but once everything is up to temp it should maintain better.

How is the boiler firing?  Is it running hot and clean?  Are your HX tubes plugging up frequently?  Is is chewing through wood or leaving you with a nice coal bed after X hours?

Now that your slab is up to temp what about running the propane to get the house up, then see if the wood can maintain everything at the desired temps?


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## maple1 (Dec 13, 2013)

Is this the first winter for you in the house? If not, what has your past heating input been? Amount of fuel and/or total cost/unit cost might give a rough idea of heat load. There's gotta be a lot of chill from all that glass.


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## Woodfarmer1 (Dec 14, 2013)

snap disc appears to be working as it should . Last night I plugged the pump into the wall and let the boiler circulate all night.
this is a brand new build so i have no information to reference

My heating guy stopped by tonight, part of the problem he says is that I'm getting 175 * water at the manifold that we have to temper down below 130* to protect my floors so this may be affecting my flow rates.


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## maple1 (Dec 14, 2013)

Not sure I'm clear - is he saying there's not enough flow through the floors?

If so that kind of speaks poorly of the heating system design and isn't really a function of the boiler. Although I think we've figured your boiler could be improved on. Also not sure I'm understanding how the manifold supply temp impacts flows through the floors - floor flow should be steady, changes in input temps should just impact how much of that input water gets sent through the zone vs how much gets sent back to the boiler via the tempering valves, to maintain constant zone temps.


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## Woodfarmer1 (Dec 15, 2013)

Last night we turned all the pumps on high, which increased the flow and everything warmed up. The  boiler has been running full out for a week, at night the temp and thermostats are all satisfied and by 6:30 am all the heat is sucked out of the boiler. 

Turned on the propane boiler last night, the aqua stat is set at 120, so it never came on.

Profab thinks my heat loss calcalculation of 40 k is about half what it should be.

Heat contractor says no way heat loss is correct and hopefully this week the dealer will be here to make sure the boiler is firing correctly.


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## henfruit (Dec 15, 2013)

How many sg. feet are you heating. With a room like that radiant is going to have a hard time to keep up in a real cold snap. I doubt you have enough sq feet of radiant to satisfy that large of a cube. If you had 8 or 9 foot ceilings it would be a whole different situation. I Have room with the same situation. Seven floor to ceiling windows, plus top bow window and cathedral ceiling. On clod weather done around 10f I can not keep that room warm. I have added insulating shades that have helped.


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## henfruit (Dec 15, 2013)

After rereading the post your house is 3200 sg. feet. That boiler is not big enough for your heat load when trying to get a 10 to 12 hour burn.


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## maple1 (Dec 15, 2013)

I think there are mutliple fundamental problems here.

Firstly, I don't think your distribution system is adequate for your heat load. You need more radiation. I would be questioning the designer of your heating system. No matter what you have to generate the heat with, it won't do you any good if the distrubtion won't get it to where it's needed faster than it is being lost to the outdoors.

Secondly, I don't think the Empyre might not be big enough for the heat load.

Have you done any measuring of floor temperatures yet? Have you done your own heat loss calc? There are online programs you can use to do that with. Is that 40 you mention yours, or your heating guys?

EDIT: Henfruit beat me to part of that. I missed the 3200 too. With that much area, and that room configuration pic you posted (very beautiful room though), I'd say both inadequate system design, and maybe too small of a boiler. But the boiler should be able to heat the house if it's kept fed steadily, and if it's working right.


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## Armaton (Dec 15, 2013)

May want to start a new thread, but since this one has been semi hi jacked will throw this out there. Heatfarmer, from your pics, system seems to be P/S with clockwise flow. Looking at your mixing valve for the six radiant loops, shouldn't the pump be on the return line before the mixing valve? That way you're pulling the hotter water from the P/S through the mixing valve, the valve then uses the amount of cooler water from the return side after the pump, and the rest goes back to the P/S. The way it stands, it looks like the pump would be fighting itself for the cooler return water. I'm not a hydronics guy and am probably way off, but...


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## maple1 (Dec 15, 2013)

Those mixing setups didn't look quite right to me either. I think I mentioned it a few posts back, but maybe not the same way.


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## Woodfarmer1 (Dec 15, 2013)

You guys have a good eye, the basement loop is pulling, however for whatever reason, the main floor loop is pushing

I purchased the boiler before the house was built and all these heat loss calculations were done. 
However profab specs the boiler at max btu of 120 k which may only be for about half hour at its peak, then the 60 k for an 8 hour burn does not work either, the information is very misleading for a regular guy like myself.  If I had put in a 60k gas boiler it may run constantly but I would be getting my 60k with wood there is no consistency so the only way to do it may be with storage

I do appreciate all the help and suggestions but what I need is an experienced expert to have a look at my system to determine what will and will not work


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## frankus33 (Dec 17, 2013)

john84 said:


> I am looking for reviews from anyone who has this unit. Is it really as simple to operate as they say? I currently am using a wood stove but am very interasted in a boiler. I am looking to heat a 2400 sq foot house and a 26x26 garage. Also are these units running good without storage?
> 
> Thanks


just one thing to consider: empyre doesn't care about warranty: i have the elite pro 200, snow got behind the aquastat from a manufacture defect and they won't do a thing.

EMPYRE MEANS NO WARRANTY.


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## willyswagon (Dec 18, 2013)

Wow, my experience with Pro Fab has been just the opposite.
 When I called regarding smoke coming out of my upper handle, I was given the part # for the door handle upgrade and told to contact my dealer for the warranty repair. A few days later, the dealer was here to do the repair, at no cost to me.
When I called them after the first season to inform that my brick in the lower chamber cracked and one piece had split, they asked if I would be able to do the replacement by myself. I responded yes, they asked  for my address, and sent the warranty replacement.


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## Woodfarmer1 (Dec 18, 2013)

Armaton said:


> May want to start a new thread, but since this one has been semi hi jacked will throw this out there. Heatfarmer, from your pics, system seems to be P/S with clockwise flow. Looking at your mixing valve for the six radiant loops, shouldn't the pump be on the return line before the mixing valve? That way you're pulling the hotter water from the P/S through the mixing valve, the valve then uses the amount of cooler water from the return side after the pump, and the rest goes back to the P/S. The way it stands, it looks like the pump would be fighting itself for the cooler return water. I'm not a hydronics guy and am probably way off, but...


 
What is P/S?


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## maple1 (Dec 18, 2013)

Primary/Secondary.


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## frankus33 (Dec 18, 2013)

willyswagon said:


> Wow, my experience with Pro Fab has been just the opposite.
> When I called regarding smoke coming out of my upper handle, I was given the part # for the door handle upgrade and told to contact my dealer for the warranty repair. A few days later, the dealer was here to do the repair, at no cost to me.
> When I called them after the first season to inform that my brick in the lower chamber cracked and one piece had split, they asked if I would be able to do the replacement by myself. I responded yes, they asked  for my address, and sent the warranty replacement.



glad for you but here they are so bad that people think they are going bankrupt. thats the word around anyway.
When snow get behind the aquastat due to manufacture defect(1/2 inch space under roof top corner). windy snow storm
push a good snow ball behind there.  then when it started to melt wreck the thermostat  which  cause the fan to keep going and push the temperature to the limi(around 195). after reporting the incident they tell me it's none of their concern.
that's what i call no warranty

EMPYRE MEANS NO WARRANTY


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