# French drain or just ditch?



## sportbikerider78 (Mar 17, 2015)

I have a driveway that has a natural ditch next to it.  Not so much a ditch as a big trough in my lawn that is 1-3' deep in some places.  It is a fairly aggressive grade, but not too steep.  It runs about 300' all the way next to my driveway.  
It carries good deal of water (runs like a small creek) when it is raining and ice is melting.  

Either way, I'm renting equipment and getting lots of coarse gravel delivered.  I'm also going to line the ditch with fiber before gravel is added to it to prevent soil from filling the ditch and erosion.

I'm just not sure if it is worth it to spend another $300-400 to put a perforated pipe in the newly dug ditch. ?


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## ironpony (Mar 17, 2015)

pic? if I am picturing it correctly, you can probably fill with dirt and grade a nice swale in it. grow some grass, it will then carry the water and be mow able.


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## sportbikerider78 (Mar 17, 2015)

A little hard to see by my pic, but it is on the left side of the drive.  It does get deep.

I really don't mind it looking all gravel.  I do have a gravel driveway next to it and I can grade it to drive right across with my mower, or cover with sod later.  

I'm thinking french drain because the ground is soggy and I want to pull as much moisture out as possible.  There is a small swampy/wetland area north of the driveway I want to dry out a bit as well.


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## 1kzwoman (Mar 17, 2015)

Perf pipe on top of gravel bed, then your liner sheet , more gravel then topsoil and sod


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## Highbeam (Mar 17, 2015)

I would never fill a ditch with gravel without first adding a pipe if you intend for the ditch to convey water. 300' of pipe should not not cost 300-400$ but it will cost something and if you can't live with that then leave it an open ditch. You know that this ditch "runs like a small creek" so you need a decent sized pipe. I wouldn't go less than 12".


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## ironpony (Mar 17, 2015)

agree with the above 2 posts. 12 inch would be my call also. you might be able to get river rock cheaper than gravel for fill. use washed with no fines.


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## sportbikerider78 (Mar 18, 2015)

Thanks for the input guys.  

Are you guys recommending 12" perforated corrugated pipe?  If you can find that for less than $1/ft, I've very interested to know where.

I would imagine perforated PVC would be much more expensive.


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## ewdudley (Mar 18, 2015)

4" would be appropriate for soil drainage, with a  shallow grass-bottom swail ditch for run-off.  There is no need to try to carry all the run-off flow in the soil drainage tile.

I just tiled 12 acres last spring and all the runs (over 4000 ft) flow to a central 4" tile that daylights out the side of a bank.  The tile only runs 1/3 full 24/7 in the spring, so 4" should be plenty big for your job.


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## sportbikerider78 (Mar 18, 2015)

Good advice. 
My thought is that it runs so heavy like a creek because the wetland area gets saturated and then overflows all and once when it rains.  If I can keep that area drier and keep the soil drier all the time, less total volume when it really rains seems to make sense.

4-6" would certainly cut down on my cost and work.  At the end of this line I will be trenching with a backhoe through the woods.  It will not be easy going and I will be hitting tons of roots and rocks.


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## CaptSpiff (Mar 18, 2015)

sportbikerider78 said:


> ...  At the end of this line I will be trenching with a backhoe through the woods.



The end of the line will be what most interests "other parties". Those parties are your neighbors and regulating agencies. I bring this up only because you mention "wetlands". I have long ago struck that phrase from my vocabulary. I like to use the word "swamp" instead.  

Where will this water be draining to?


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## sportbikerider78 (Mar 18, 2015)

Noted..it is really just a small wet area that grows some cat tails and weeds.  

No other parties involved.  I have a very long property and the water will have another 1200 feet to dissipate into the soil after the pipe ends.  From there, there is a creek and about 400 acres of fields.


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## EatenByLimestone (Mar 19, 2015)

Draining wetlands, even if it's just a vernal pool can be a big no-no without the right permits.  Check with your local dec office to see if your wetland is mapped.  A few years ago the state remapped all their wetlands.  Draining one could result in a really big fine.


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## kniffin50 (Mar 19, 2015)

line it with filter fabric, several inches crushed stone, lay pipe on stone,add 6inches of stone on top of pipe, filter fabric on top of that to keep gravel from infiltrating stone then backfill with gravel.You could use a.d.s. coil pipe to keep costs down but you must be careful on backfilling that you don't flatten pipe.


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## ewdudley (Mar 19, 2015)

sportbikerider78 said:


> it is really just a small wet area that grows some cat tails and weeds


Are you sure it's not connected to navigable waters?  Better check with the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers!


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## osagebow (Mar 19, 2015)

I did what kniffin suggested 12 years ago on our  120' driveway and around perimiter of our swamp yard. trenched 3' deep, used 4" pipe and  A LOT of gravel. No problems so far. Get your utilities marked!


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## kniffin50 (Mar 20, 2015)

I forgot to add to use perforated pipe. I was told if you use two runs of pipe side by side it would handle four times the amount of water compared to size of pipe. You could build a headwall out of fieldstone with a flared end to catch water at inlet same at outlet to discharge. Build a screen to keep critters and sticks and leaves out of the pipe.


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## ironpony (Mar 20, 2015)

kniffin50 said:


> I forgot to add to use perforated pipe. I was told if you use two runs of pipe side by side it would handle four times the amount of water compared to size of pipe. You could build a headwall out of fieldstone with a flared end to catch water at inlet same at outlet to discharge. Build a screen to keep critters and sticks and leaves out of the pipe.





Actually it is if you double the diameter you 4 times the flow.


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## ironpony (Mar 20, 2015)

do some checking, when you said cattails it made me think of a project we worked on years back. cattails = wetlands around here.


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## peakbagger (Mar 20, 2015)

One real annoying part of wetland rules is that if you inadvertently create one, you have to treat it like one forever. So if some builder screws up the drainage and create a wet spot and cattails start growing you cant legally fix it unless you jump through the hoops.

I generally recommend French drains as they tend to work better in the spring when the ground is frozen. If the french drain is built right its doesn't freeze.


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## kniffin50 (Mar 20, 2015)

ironpony said:


> Actually it is if you double the diameter you 4 times the flow.


I thought it was something like that. I remember reading that in a handbook H.O.Penn  used to hand out when you bought    a machine from them. But that was a long time ago, they don't even like to give out more than 2 keys,where it used to be hats,shirts ,jackets etc.


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## sportbikerider78 (Mar 20, 2015)

peakbagger said:


> One real annoying part of wetland rules is that if you inadvertently create one, you have to treat it like one forever. So if some builder screws up the drainage and create a wet spot and cattails start growing you cant legally fix it unless you jump through the hoops.
> 
> I generally recommend French drains as they tend to work better in the spring when the ground is frozen. If the french drain is built right its doesn't freeze.



Great to hear, as I live in a cold climate.  How deep do you need to go for the Northeast?  That is one thing I have had a hard time finding on the interwebs.

Thank you all for the input.  I'll go with the best pipe I can afford and make a nice catch basin at the inlet w/flared end and screen.  That was already on my mind but hadn't thought it through.

When a project is complete, you never think,,,"boy I could have saved some money."  You are just glad it worked!


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## ewdudley (Mar 20, 2015)

sportbikerider78 said:


> Great to hear, as I live in a cold climate.  How deep do you need to go for the Northeast?  That is one thing I have had a hard time finding on the interwebs.
> 
> Thank you all for the input.  I'll go with the best pipe I can afford and make a nice catch basin at the inlet w/flared end and screen.  That was already on my mind but hadn't thought it through.
> 
> When a project is complete, you never think,,,"boy I could have saved some money."  You are just glad it worked!



I wouldn't try to open the upper end and invite any silt or debris into the tile, screen or no screen.  Study gravel-bottomed catch basins to find best practices.

There is no need to concern yourself with frost depth.  If the soil above the tile is frozen it doesn't matter if the tile is frozen because the soil is impermeable at that point.  Just need to design for surface drainage in the spring.

No need to throw money at it without regard for benefits gained.  The right pipe is the right pipe regardless of what you can afford.  4" perforated polyethylene appears to be used nearly universally. 

ftp://ftp-fc.sc.egov.usda.gov/NY/engineering_tools/drainage_guide_ny.pdf


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## kniffin50 (Mar 20, 2015)

By the time were done with the work order you'll have a entrance ramp to the nearest interstate


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## peakbagger (Mar 20, 2015)

In theory if its got slope and discharges somewhere, depth is non issue as the crushed rock doesn't really freeze as long as it has somewhere to drain. I got a call to go look a new house in my development a few years ago, the owner builder did extensive drainage work around the foundation and ran it via a French drain to a ditch. Unfortunately the house was on high water table and the ditch was a couple of feet above the basement floor. They had water coming in everywhere in the basement. I convinced them that they needed a sump pump and they sold it soon after it was completed. Thus the depth of French drain is pretty much lmited to the depth where it discharges freely. All the French drain does is get rid of the swale.   

I used to work for a water utility and one year we were putting in water line along an old farm, every 500 feet or so we would hit a French drain coming out of the field, it would flood the trench almost instantly when the backhoe hit it but there was no trace of it above ground. It was bedded and topped with hay. The drains apparently ran across the roads and eventually hit daylight at a stream bed. One of the locals told us where they came out were the best darn springs in the area.


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## sportbikerider78 (Mar 20, 2015)

Very good info.  I will no go crazy with the depth (save on stone) and just make sure the grading is really good.

Looks like I'll be renting a Kubota backhoe/frontloader for about a week.    What better way to spend $900?  LOL


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## Highbeam (Mar 20, 2015)

ewdudley said:


> 4" would be appropriate for soil drainage, with a  shallow grass-bottom swail ditch for run-off.  There is no need to try to carry all the run-off flow in the soil drainage tile.
> 
> I just tiled 12 acres last spring and all the runs (over 4000 ft) flow to a central 4" tile that daylights out the side of a bank.  The tile only runs 1/3 full 24/7 in the spring, so 4" should be plenty big for your job.



Unfortunately, the OP is not talking about soil drainage. He specifically detailed a "small creek" worth of flow from surface sources. Need to size for the bigger events. I too have done lots of 4" pipe for soil drainage and roof drains. It works great if that's all you need. 

Back to the beginning... why do you want to fill this ditch? Open channels work great for dewatering, conveyance, and easy maintenance.

There is no such thing as a wetland, just a drainage problem.


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## ewdudley (Mar 20, 2015)

Highbeam said:


> Unfortunately, the OP is not talking about soil drainage.


I'm saying he should be talking about soil drainage to keep the area from being soggy from the get-go.  Then grade the ditch and maintain a sod bottom for vernal run-off and storm surface drainage.  No stone required, just well-drained sod.


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## sportbikerider78 (Mar 20, 2015)

Lets not over think this guys.  I'm looking at both.   There is a very saturated soil area that is high above this ditch.  It does not run when it is not raining or when there isn't melt.  If we have a dry spring, by the begining of June it would be quite dry, even as it is.

The ditch isn't doing it.  The ground is all soggy.  I need to get the water out, and down.  Having the ground super wet 4 out of the 6 months we don't have snow on the ground, isn't good enough.  Plus, I have small kids, dirt bikes, atvs, lawnmowers, and this ditch is an accident waiting to happen.   I also have to weedwack around it, when I could just mow up to the edge of it. 

Although, i did teach myself to load the suspension and jump over it with the dirt bike.....so it hasn't been a complete loss.


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## Bobbin (Mar 21, 2015)

The Good Man and I live on a "low" lot.  We have the raised septic system to prove it!  Late FIL was an architect, landscape work was his specialty.  FIL was "all about" drainage; I was too clueless to really appreciate its importance at the time, and whimpered about the $ spent on things that couldn't be seen... .  But I kept my mouth shut and let him do his work, foregoing "landscaping" in favor of drainage.  _It was the smartest thing I ever did! _

It seemed like forever before the drainage was camouflaged by plantings, but it was accomplished.  Then we built the barn... and the same drainage issues appeared.  Addressing them seemed "expensive", but the cost, amortized over time, and viewed in hindsight was worth every dime!  We had some very serious issues along the road (our property is below road grade in that area).  We sucked it up and put in perforated pipe graded to a drainage gulley, crushed stone covered with landscape fabric before we undertook the privacy planting.  Again, it sucked at first, but now we have a handsome shrub border that shields our home from passersby, grows yearly, and is easily manageable. 

Go with the perforated pipe.  Plan the project and do it correctly.  You'll never regret the effort.  Trust me.


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