# Thinking Wood Gun...any advice or experience?



## avc8130

I have been researching and searching on this forum for 2+ months for a wood boiler setup that will meet my needs.  I absolutely have to have wood and oil in 1 unit, non-negotiable.  That limited my options quite a bit.  I thought I was buying a used Tarm Excel 2200, but it sold before I could get there.  I've now moved on to the Wood Gun E180. 

I've read EVERY post I could find about this unit, and I think it is the right fit for me.  They are having a 10% off sale if I commit before 9/30.  Push me over or back from the ledge!

ac


----------



## muncybob

It's worked for me although I have the smaller unit. As with anything new, you will have the learning curve to go through and as with any other wood burning appliance dry wood is important. Yes, the WG will burn higher MC wood but you'll have the same problems as any other unit with wet wood so don't so it.

It's a solid heavy duty build, many parts are non propietary. Fairly easy on going maint./cleaning. Can't speak to the customer service these days as I have not had to use it since the new ownership took over 2 years ago. The oil burner is used by us when we go away over a weekend....it's probably not very efficient but we use it so little that it's not a major concern for us.

I will say that I'm not happy with the amount I get out of the chimney cleaning...it's primarily soot/dust, very little creosote but I had expected to have much less each year.


----------



## avc8130

muncybob said:


> It's worked for me although I have the smaller unit. As with anything new, you will have the learning curve to go through and as with any other wood burning appliance dry wood is important. Yes, the WG will burn higher MC wood but you'll have the same problems as any other unit with wet wood so don't so it.
> 
> It's a solid heavy duty build, many parts are non propietary. Fairly easy on going maint./cleaning. Can't speak to the customer service these days as I have not had to use it since the new ownership took over 2 years ago. The oil burner is used by us when we go away over a weekend....it's probably not very efficient but we use it so little that it's not a major concern for us.
> 
> I will say that I'm not happy with the amount I get out of the chimney cleaning...it's primarily soot/dust, very little creosote but I had expected to have much less each year.


 
Wet wood won't be an issue for me.  I have 10+ cords ready to go that were planned for the wood stove.  I like to keep well ahead on the wood supply.

That was a big selling point for me.  None of the parts looked like something I wouldn't be able to find at the local plumbing supply if I had an issue.  I have heard of the center nozzle brick needing replacement, so I might blast a few out of thick steel to try. 

Same boat here on the oil burner.  We don't vacation much during heating season, so it would only be used when we are gone for a day here and there.  Any in-efficiency will be more than made up for by burning wood 95% of the time.

You are NOT happy with that chimney cleaning?  It sounds perfect to me!

ac


----------



## Karl_northwind

Storage, storage, storage.

karl


----------



## maple1

Are you 100% sure that you need to have wood & oil?

Could you go wood & electric boiler instead? It opens up so many more options if so. I think when I was doing my researching, I narrowed it down to 2 choices if I had to go a wood/oil combo - the Wood Gun, and the Biomass 60 Combo. Both quite pricey compared to all the options if combining stand alone wood & electric units.

Not sure that helps, but good luck.


----------



## muncybob

Storage is something I thought we would do by now...and there are times(shoulder seasons) I wish I had it for the convenience factor. I just have not been able to justify the expense for storage to gain some convenince when I have so many other money hungry projects in the works...maybe one day down the road. Certainly if you have the space and $$ it's a great idea!

My chimney cleaning comments is based on the little amount others have removed. I think I probably get a similar(small) amount of creosote as others have posted but the ash is a lot more than I expected(1+ gal.). I will also say that the Sooteater product has paid for itself, yesterday was my 1st cleaning with it and I'm very happy with the job it did.


----------



## avc8130

Karl_northwind said:


> Storage, storage, storage.
> 
> karl


 
Karl,

Do you have a Wood Gun?

ac


----------



## avc8130

maple1 said:


> Are you 100% sure that you need to have wood & oil?
> 
> Could you go wood & electric boiler instead? It opens up so many more options if so. I think when I was doing my researching, I narrowed it down to 2 choices if I had to go a wood/oil combo - the Wood Gun, and the Biomass 60 Combo. Both quite pricey compared to all the options if combining stand alone wood & electric units.
> 
> Not sure that helps, but good luck.


 
I COULD go electric...but i'd have to buy one and my BTU requirements are quite high (current boiler is setup for 140k btu).  I already have all of the fixings for oil, and with the storage capacity I have (725 gallons) I can price shop a fair bit in the summer and probably buy quite a few years worth of backup.

I think you hit the nail on the head: Biomass 60 or Wood Gun are what I narrowed down to also.  I was leaning towards the Wood Gun because the install seems cheaper as it is more "plug and play" for my install.  It can also run without storage which is a big plus to cut down on initial cost/time to get it up and running for THIS heating season.

ac


----------



## Frozen Canuck

They can all run without storage, they will all run better with storage on the wood side. Cant shut off a wood fire like you can a fossil fire.


----------



## maple1

The electric suggestion was mainly based on it sounding like the backup wouldn't get used much at all. If it would be, I might retract my suggestion. It does all depend on all the factors in your situation - otherwise we'd all have the same things.What about a wood boiler, and a mini-split heat pump? I'm thinking one of those would be in the same price range as the add-on oil option? With a/c as a bonus. I guess after all the digging & humming & hawing I did, I'd recommend everyone consider all other options available before deciding to stick with oil.

There will likely be others in on this, but I think I remember also reading about the oil burner/nozzle getting dirtied by the wood fire if the oil was seldom used, and causing starting issues? I think between the two I might lean to the Gun for reasons aleady mentioned - plus they've been around for quite a while. Although the Biomass looked like a good unit - from here at least. I would likely still have wood & oil, if oil wasn't so costly to burn.


----------



## avc8130

Frozen Canuck said:


> They can all run without storage, they will all run better with storage on the wood side. Cant shut off a wood fire like you can a fossil fire.


 
Wood Gun would contend that it IS possible to stifle a wood fire...at least temporarily.

ac


----------



## avc8130

maple1 said:


> The electric suggestion was mainly based on it sounding like the backup wouldn't get used much at all. If it would be, I might retract my suggestion. It does all depend on all the factors in your situation - otherwise we'd all have the same things.What about a wood boiler, and a mini-split heat pump? I'm thinking one of those would be in the same price range as the add-on oil option? With a/c as a bonus. I guess after all the digging & humming & hawing I did, I'd recommend everyone consider all other options available before deciding to stick with oil.
> 
> There will likely be others in on this, but I think I remember also reading about the oil burner/nozzle getting dirtied by the wood fire if the oil was seldom used, and causing starting issues? I think between the two I might lean to the Gun for reasons aleady mentioned - plus they've been around for quite a while. Although the Biomass looked like a good unit - from here at least. I would likely still have wood & oil, if oil wasn't so costly to burn.


 
While the intent isn't to use it "often", I certainly don't want to be totally screwed if I have to rely on it a bit.  To get a 140k btu electric boiler looks like $2k+ if even possible. 

I already have central air conditioning. 

I have heard about the nozzle issues.  Wood Gun installs a separate burn chamber from what I am told, but it is certainly something I plan to investigate when I visit the factory this week.  If clogging is really a problem, then it won't be a "reliable" backup! 

I don't know about the Biomass, but one of the things that I really like about the Wood Gun is the common components.  All of the controls are simple Honeywell aquastats that the local plumbing supply house.  The door gaskets are rope and available from the local stove store.  I like that I should be insulated from possible obsoletion. 

ac


----------



## ISeeDeadBTUs

The WG was on my short list. But not because of the combo. I would try to avoid the combo.

How long do you have to wait before firing the oil when you have been burning wood? One thing I like about two boilers linked with an W2WHX is that when the slightly under-sized wood boiler can't keep up (-15) the oil can give it a boost.


----------



## avc8130

ISeeDeadBTUs said:


> The WG was on my short list. But not because of the combo. I would try to avoid the combo.
> 
> How long do you have to wait before firing the oil when you have been burning wood? One thing I like about two boilers linked with an W2WHX is that when the slightly under-sized wood boiler can't keep up (-15) the oil can give it a boost.


 
Good question.  Adding it to my list to ask them.

I don't think my wood burner will be undersized for my application. 

ac


----------



## Frozen Canuck

avc8130 said:


> Wood Gun would contend that it IS possible to stifle a wood fire...at least temporarily.
> 
> ac


 
It is however there are consequences to doing so. General consensus on the board is that wood should burn flat out & completely to be clean & efficient. Hence storage, it allows multiple fires to charge the storage with a rest period. Providing the storage is sized to the load.


----------



## avc8130

Frozen Canuck said:


> It is however there are consequences to doing so. General consensus on the board is that wood should burn flat out & completely to be clean & efficient. Hence storage, it allows multiple fires to charge the storage with a rest period. Providing the storage is sized to the load.


 
I hear ya.  I've read probably thousands of posts about it.  However, with that said, "efficient" is very hard to quantify.

Sure, I'll "lose efficiency" running a WG shutting the fire on and off...BUT...will I lose enough to get back the thousands of dollars invested in a storage system when I might be "wasting" "free" wood on the lost efficiency?

What I can never find is hard facts and data.

ac


----------



## Frozen Canuck

All the facts & data would be variables, dependant upon water temp, ambient air temp, insulation type & thickness, flow rate, pipe type & length & diameter, surface contact & at least a few dozen others, fun being a system engineer & having to nail this calculation. Now I know why they can be so grumpy.  That's just on the water side, a hole other set of calculations for loss on the fire side.


----------



## avc8130

Frozen Canuck said:


> All the facts & data would be variables, dependant upon water temp, ambient air temp, insulation type & thickness, flow rate, pipe type & length & diameter, surface contact & at least a few dozen others, fun being a system engineer & having to nail this calculation. Now I know why they can be so grumpy.  That's just on the water side, a hole other set of calculations for loss on the fire side.


 
Agreed 100%.  The engineer in me just needs to "experience" it firsthand since I can't research it well enough.

I figure I can always add storage later if I'm not happy for one reason or another, the Wood Gun affords me that variable.  The Biomass seems to NEED storage.

ac


----------



## maple1

avc8130 said:


> While the intent isn't to use it "often", I certainly don't want to be totally screwed if I have to rely on it a bit. To get a 140k btu electric boiler looks like $2k+ if even possible.
> 
> I already have central air conditioning.
> 
> I have heard about the nozzle issues. Wood Gun installs a separate burn chamber from what I am told, but it is certainly something I plan to investigate when I visit the factory this week. If clogging is really a problem, then it won't be a "reliable" backup!
> 
> I don't know about the Biomass, but one of the things that I really like about the Wood Gun is the common components. All of the controls are simple Honeywell aquastats that the local plumbing supply house. The door gaskets are rope and available from the local stove store. I like that I should be insulated from possible obsoletion.
> 
> ac


 
I don't think you would need a 140k boiler. If it's only for backup when nobody is home for a short period, that is a big difference in heat demand - set the thermostats back to 50 or so while your gone, no doors opening & closing, and also no domestic use. I got a 20k electric boiler. Not all set up yet, but we would only be away for maybe a weekend max. I think if I heated the house a bit warmer than usual and charge my storage and turn the stats back before I left, the electric wouldn't even kick in. Or at least not for long.

I really did like my oil side when I had it, hot & convenient. But it was getting way costly (especially for doing DHW in summer). And oil can be a big liability - I would also have been due for a tank replacement in the next couple of years whether it needed it or not.

Of course I could be back on it some day too, never know what the future will bring. Be sure to keep us posted.


----------



## Frozen Canuck

For sure avc you can always add storage at a later date if you so choose, suggest that you plumb that possibility into your piping scheme now so its easier later. Have fun with the boiler & the learning curve.


----------



## muncybob

avc8130 said:


> Good question. Adding it to my list to ask them.
> 
> I don't think my wood burner will be undersized for my application.
> 
> ac


 
As for the dirty oil nozzle, they now offer a ceramic "plug" for the oil burn tube. I leave mine in there as 99% of the time I am burning wood but you would need to be sure to remove the plug if you intend to run the oil or if you set the unit to auto rather than dedicated wood or oil.

The WG will switch to oil when in auto depending on the temp cut off you select. Select a low enough temp and the wood fire will basically be out when the oil kicks in. I always am sure that the wood fire is extinguished before turning on the oil.


----------



## avc8130

maple1 said:


> I don't think you would need a 140k boiler. If it's only for backup when nobody is home for a short period, that is a big difference in heat demand - set the thermostats back to 50 or so while your gone, no doors opening & closing, and also no domestic use. I got a 20k electric boiler. Not all set up yet, but we would only be away for maybe a weekend max. I think if I heated the house a bit warmer than usual and charge my storage and turn the stats back before I left, the electric wouldn't even kick in. Or at least not for long.
> 
> I really did like my oil side when I had it, hot & convenient. But it was getting way costly (especially for doing DHW in summer). And oil can be a big liability - I would also have been due for a tank replacement in the next couple of years whether it needed it or not.
> 
> Of course I could be back on it some day too, never know what the future will bring. Be sure to keep us posted.


 
I'll let you convince my wife the cats and dog get to be in the house at 50F .

I have no intent of using oil or wood to make hot water in the summer.  I am plumbing in an electric hot water heater for use during the non-heating season.  My tanks are in my basement.  Should be essentially good "for life".

I have no desires to start fires and have a hot basement below my living space I am paying to air condition.

ac


----------



## avc8130

Frozen Canuck said:


> For sure avc you can always add storage at a later date if you so choose, suggest that you plumb that possibility into your piping scheme now so its easier later. Have fun with the boiler & the learning curve.


 
That's in the plan.  A few Tees are cheaper now than later.  

ac


----------



## avc8130

muncybob said:


> As for the dirty oil nozzle, they now offer a ceramic "plug" for the oil burn tube. I leave mine in there as 99% of the time I am burning wood but you would need to be sure to remove the plug if you intend to run the oil or if you set the unit to auto rather than dedicated wood or oil.
> 
> The WG will switch to oil when in auto depending on the temp cut off you select. Select a low enough temp and the wood fire will basically be out when the oil kicks in. I always am sure that the wood fire is extinguished before turning on the oil.


 
Perfect! I thought I read about that plug somewhere. I didn't plan on setting the WG to "auto" for the backup. I figure if I am home enough to only miss a loading here or there the house won't be TOO cold to bring back with wood. Going back to oil will be a fim decision.

ac


----------



## velvetfoot

My condolances on not getting the Tarm.  The Wood Gun also seems like a nice unit.

On another note, your fuel tanks might last forever, but maybe your fuel won't.  I've read of micobiological fouling that can occur.  I think there's a biocide for that.

Are your emitters baseboards?  Does that factor into any of this, like the higher temps they might like when it gets real cold out?


----------



## avc8130

velvetfoot said:


> My condolances on not getting the Tarm. The Wood Gun also seems like a nice unit.
> 
> On another note, your fuel tanks might last forever, but maybe your fuel won't. I've read of micobiological fouling that can occur. I think there's a biocide for that.
> 
> Are your emitters baseboards? Does that factor into any of this, like the higher temps they might like when it gets real cold out?


 
Oil will grow microbes if you keep it forever.  I will run my tractor from my fuel tanks to keep things "flowing" a bit.  Worst case, treat with a biocide.

My emitters are baseboards.  That is one of my main reasons for liking the WG.  It is designed around normal boiler functioning keeping temps up where my radiators will be happy.

ac


----------



## avc8130

Does the WG have a control to shut off the draft fan if the wood fire goes out?  In other words, does it look for stack temp  or shut off if water temp drops below a certain threshold?

ac


----------



## maple1

avc8130 said:


> I'll let you convince my wife the cats and dog get to be in the house at 50F .
> 
> I have no intent of using oil or wood to make hot water in the summer. I am plumbing in an electric hot water heater for use during the non-heating season. My tanks are in my basement. Should be essentially good "for life".
> 
> I have no desires to start fires and have a hot basement below my living space I am paying to air condition.
> 
> ac


 
OK - I was thinking the house would be empty. Even then if it would take a while to recover, likely not the best.

The Wood Gun is sounding good.


----------



## muncybob

avc8130 said:


> Does the WG have a control to shut off the draft fan if the wood fire goes out? In other words, does it look for stack temp or shut off if water temp drops below a certain threshold?
> 
> ac


 
If you go with the WG remember to ask for that plug and also get the low temp shut off aquastat. This will shut down the fan and close the air intake at a certain low temp. The temps it runs on are not stack, it is the water temp. Another option I would suggest is the cycle timer, this will help in shoulder season by "restatrting" the fire for short periods of time at regular intervals so the coals stay hot and are aviable to you when your thermostats call for heat. These 3 items are options and unless you ask for them they will not be included. I was not even aware of the low temp and plug when I got mine.


----------



## flyingcow

725 gals of oil tanks? FWIW- I was using about 1000 gals of oil a yr before I switched to what i have now. I am still hooked up to oil, only as a backup. I might use 30 gals of oil a yr now? Curious, how much oil did you burn in a yr before? I also have a tractor, but don't use it much more than 125 hours a yr. Might burn 200 gals of fuel through that.

since you didn't ask me, i'll throw another idea out there. How about a propane/nat gas tankless heater as back up? Would it satisfy your heat load retirements? If it does, this would be a nice source of DHW in the summer also.

You just need to give a few of us one of your credit cards and a few beers in the frig(or at least a good coffee pot) , we'll get you set up.


----------



## avc8130

muncybob said:


> If you go with the WG remember to ask for that plug and also get the low temp shut off aquastat. This will shut down the fan and close the air intake at a certain low temp. The temps it runs on are not stack, it is the water temp. Another option I would suggest is the cycle timer, this will help in shoulder season by "restatrting" the fire for short periods of time at regular intervals so the coals stay hot and are aviable to you when your thermostats call for heat. These 3 items are options and unless you ask for them they will not be included. I was not even aware of the low temp and plug when I got mine.


 
Does the low temp aquastat ADD an aquastat, or simply replace the high only aquastat? 
Sounds like settings would be:
High: 190F
Differential: 10F
Overtemp: 210F
Low: 170F
Would that make sense?

I am well aware of the cycle timer and plan on installing one.  I spoke to WG and Ben suggested I install my own to save a few bucks.  Seems easy enough and a no-brainer.

Definitely going to ask about the oil burner plug.  Is it easy to remove/install?  I hope I dont have to pull the oil burner on/off.

ac


----------



## muncybob

avc8130 said:


> Does the low temp aquastat ADD an aquastat, or simply replace the high only aquastat?
> Sounds like settings would be:
> High: 190F
> Differential: 10F
> Overtemp: 210F
> Low: 170F
> Would that make sense?
> 
> I am well aware of the cycle timer and plan on installing one. I spoke to WG and Ben suggested I install my own to save a few bucks. Seems easy enough and a no-brainer.
> 
> Definitely going to ask about the oil burner plug. Is it easy to remove/install? I hope I dont have to pull the oil burner on/off.
> 
> ac


 
I believe the low temp is a replacement, ask WG about it. The plug is inside the bottom front door, very easy access.


----------



## avc8130

flyingcow said:


> 725 gals of oil tanks? FWIW- I was using about 1000 gals of oil a yr before I switched to what i have now. I am still hooked up to oil, only as a backup. I might use 30 gals of oil a yr now? Curious, how much oil did you burn in a yr before? I also have a tractor, but don't use it much more than 125 hours a yr. Might burn 200 gals of fuel through that.
> 
> since you didn't ask me, i'll throw another idea out there. How about a propane/nat gas tankless heater as back up? Would it satisfy your heat load retirements? If it does, this would be a nice source of DHW in the summer also.
> 
> You just need to give a few of us one of your credit cards and a few beers in the frig(or at least a good coffee pot) , we'll get you set up.


 
Last year I used ~750 gallons of heating oil. It was a mild winter and the house was FREEZING cold. Literally 64F only in the zone we were in.  We kept the wood stove rocking, but due to the house layout that only helps 1 zone.  Family dynamics are changing, I need a WARM house in more than 1 room.

I would LOVE natural gas.  I am not interested in propane.  I had a 100 gallon tank for heating my workshop.  Nothing but nightmares in my area.  I would get quotes for propane from $3 to $7 per gallon.  Plus having to rent the tank, or buy one.  Having to look at the tank in my nice backyard.  No thanks, not interested.  My oil is in the basement and I never really have to see it.  Plus I can shop the price and at least pay a competitive market rate.

I have 2 275 tanks in the basement and a skid 275.  I pull the tractor out of the 275 usually.  If I run out of heating oil in the winter I would pump the skid into the 550 in the basement to burn oil bought in the summer cheaper than the winter rate.  Refill everything in summer.  That will probably change to just refilling the 275 skid in the summer when I am using oil as a backup.

ac


----------



## BoilerMan

It's interesting to hear what others expierence with LP is.  It used to (like two years ago) be like you say ac, but now we have some competition in the propane market and things have come to the point I'd consider LP.  I had two 100 gal tnaks for an on-demand, dryer, and range.  The price was anywhere from 125% to 150% of oil, and only 2/3 the btu content. It really ticked me off, as it is the cheapest fuel for the company to buy.  I switched to oil as my water heating fuel (summer only) and now wish I'd kept the propane.  Sold the on-demand, and bought the Toyo on CL, free oil tank still is half full from two years ago.  But I hear ya with oil, you can shop around, but now that we can with pro-PAIN, it's way cheaper than oil.   

TS


----------



## flyingcow

A true point with propane, but it's still a backup, usually dependable.No big volume as back up.

Another direction....these mini split units are sweet units. Even with the high cost of electricity up here in Maine they are selling quite a few units.


----------



## avc8130

I simply can't wrap my head around abandoning what I already have in place to go out and replace it with something else.  

No way on Earth running electricity or propane in my area will be cheaper than running oil.  Especially with them starting $2000-$4000 in the whole from buying a boiler and setting it all up.

ac


----------



## 711mhw

Don't forget to get the exhaust hood! Sounds like your going to Chambersburg? Why not bring an empty pickup and just haul it home with you?


----------



## avc8130

711mhw said:


> Don't forget to get the exhaust hood! Sounds like your going to Chambersburg? Why not bring an empty pickup and just haul it home with you?


 
2 Reasons:
1. They have a 3-4 week back log right now.
2. PA sales tax is more than shipping!

ac


----------



## 711mhw

avc8130 said:


> 2 Reasons:
> 1. They have a 3-4 week back log right now.
> 2. PA sales tax is more than shipping!
> 
> ac


 The tax/shipping deal worked out the same for me too. But seriously, check out the smoke hood.


----------



## avc8130

711mhw said:


> The tax/shipping deal worked out the same for me too. But seriously, check out the smoke hood.


 
I plan on going over EVERY option with them.  When I spoke to Ben he was adamant that the smoke hood was unnecessary when run properly, but I have read that it is absolutely required in real life.  

I WISH someone would post real life videos on You Tube!

ac


----------



## mikefrommaine

avc8130 said:


> I plan on going over EVERY option with them.  When I spoke to Ben he was adamant that the smoke hood was unnecessary when run properly, but I have read that it is absolutely required in real life.
> 
> I WISH someone would post real life videos on You Tube!
> 
> ac



I don't have any experience with woodgun but after being around here awhile it seems they want tend to tell people all they need is the boiler. They say things like storage, smoke hoods and timers are only necessary if you don't go with their one of a kind super boiler to keep the initial cost down.

In real life most people realize they did need the "options"


----------



## avc8130

mikefrommaine said:


> I don't have any experience with woodgun but after being around here awhile it seems they want tend to tell people all they need is the boiler. They say things like storage, smoke hoods and timers are only necessary if you don't go with their one of a kind super boiler to keep the initial cost down.
> 
> In real life most people realize they did need the "options"


 
Ben seemed more up front than that.  He didn't seem like he down-played the options to keep the cost down.  He told me flat out in NJ that I would need the cycle timer.  He also discussed options for adding the oil backup and using the oil gun from my current boiler.  Most salesman PUSH options, since each one has profit in it.

ac


----------



## muncybob

I'm not sure if AHS had the current options available to me when I bought our boiler other than the smoke hood & timer, although I'm sure the low temp aquastat was something I could have bought on my own but I just didn't think of it until after the install was complete. At the time of purchase Ben said to go w/o the hood and just see how it runs. The hood is not a must have item but it should help a lot with the minimal amount of smoke that escapes at loading if the box is not down to just hot coals. I just installed the hood this year so this will be our 1st winter with it. If you have the $$, I agree...get all the options available as you will likely get them further down the road anyway.


----------



## avc8130

muncybob said:


> I'm not sure if AHS had the current options available to me when I bought our boiler other than the smoke hood & timer, although I'm sure the low temp aquastat was something I could have bought on my own but I just didn't think of it until after the install was complete. At the time of purchase Ben said to go w/o the hood and just see how it runs. The hood is not a must have item but it should help a lot with the minimal amount of smoke that escapes at loading if the box is not down to just hot coals. I just installed the hood this year so this will be our 1st winter with it. If you have the $$, I agree...get all the options available as you will likely get them further down the road anyway.


 
The only thing I am NOT considering is the domestic coil.  I have an indirect water heater setup currently and Ben said that would be ideal over the coil.  Agreed?

ac


----------



## JP11

avc8130 said:


> The only thing I am NOT considering is the domestic coil. I have an indirect water heater setup currently and Ben said that would be ideal over the coil. Agreed?
> 
> ac


I did the same thing.  My indirect was already set up as a zone of my system.  I left it alone.  It's a call for heat just like any other zone.


----------



## avc8130

I went and visited Ben today at AHS.  It took me ~3 hours to get there on the bike and the weather was favorable so it was a good excuse to skip work for the day.

We spoke for close to an hour going over the different features of the units.  We spoke a bunch about maintenance and operation.  I was very impressed with the knowledge he had, I could tell he owns and runs one.  

I can confirm a few things:
- There is a low limit on the aquastat so the fan won't blow if the water temp goes below a set point.
- There is a separate oil chamber.  It is basically a tube in the water bath the oil burner fires into.  The oil heat must then pass through the front and find its way through the exhaust.  There is a plug for this chamber when firing on wood ONLY so the oil burner doesn't see fly ash and get fouled. 
- All of the boilers come with the DHW coil port, so one could be added at a later date if my indirect crashes and burns.
- I was very impressed with the quality.  All of the welds look first rate and the units are very impressive.
- I REALLY like that all of the maintenance items are simple and can be found locally.  All of the aquastats are Honeywell.  The draft motor (all are direct drive now) is Baldor.  
- There is a bearing on the door handles to allow them to close and seal easily, nice detail.
- Nozzle bricks need to be replaced ~3 years, whole refractory should be good for 15+.

I put a deposit on an E180 with the oil burner tube installed.  I plan to do my own controls/wiring for the oil side as I don't want it to be an automatic backup at the moment.  I also plan to wire in my own cycle timer.

ac


----------



## BoilerMan

This will be interesting to see how it all goes avc.

TS


----------



## avc8130

I just got an email that the boiler should ship next Thursday!

I need to find some 6" SS stove pipe.  Any suggested sources?

I guess I also need to stock up on fittings!

ac


----------



## infinitymike

Wow! Thats great. I cant believe you will get it so fast.

I think it's great. But have nothing to compare it to.

I dont' think anyone asked this question, but why not leave your current oil system as a back up. Then you wont have the expense of the oil gun.
I have my existing oil tied into a primary/secondary loop.

I am also concerned about the plug. If for what ever reason the wood doesn't light and the unit drops below the low temp and the oil tries to come on you may have a problem with that plug in. even while being home I had the oil kick on just because of something dumb like the wood bridging or the wood not reigniting. Something to think about.

REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE
1. get the low temp shut off or do it yourself Its easy just need a dual aqua stat and a light switch.
2. get the cycle timer ( i don't have one and want to add it)
3. ** get the smoke hood** an absolute must!! I have mine in the garage and the ceiling is black and the placed filled with smoke many times.
chalk it up to inexperience if you want but I say spend the $350 ( just bought one for this season)
4. Set the unit up on something 12" high its makes the fire box at a nice loading height. (i'm 5' 11")
 5. get the Danfoss return water temp protection valve.

I will be shooting a video soon to prove to all the non believers that it does shut off the fire!!

The fan shuts off, the air valve closes and the fire goes out. period!
No oxygen = No fire. very simple.


----------



## Wildo

so what is a good guesstimate on the price with all the fixins for a wg 100??
\


----------



## infinitymike

Wildo said:


> so what is a good guesstimate on the price with all the fixins for a wg 100??
> \


 
I paid a total of $8,800 for the e100 with shipping.  I got the stainless steel fire box upgrade which was a $1000(i think).
I also got the DHW coil which I think was $350. I bought the parts and installed the low water temp shut off.
I just bought the smoke hood which was another $350.
I paid $4600 for parts and labor to install.
Plus $1,500 for the stainless smoke pipe.
I also converted my garage into a fire resistant boiler room which cost a few bucks

All in all I spent around $17,000

But I still believe it is money well spent


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> Wow! Thats great. I cant believe you will get it so fast.
> 
> I think it's great. But have nothing to compare it to.
> 
> I dont' think anyone asked this question, but why not leave your current oil system as a back up. Then you wont have the expense of the oil gun.
> I have my existing oil tied into a primary/secondary loop.
> 
> I am also concerned about the plug. If for what ever reason the wood doesn't light and the unit drops below the low temp and the oil tries to come on you may have a problem with that plug in. even while being home I had the oil kick on just because of something dumb like the wood bridging or the wood not reigniting. Something to think about.
> 
> REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE
> 1. get the low temp shut off or do it yourself Its easy just need a dual aqua stat and a light switch.
> 2. get the cycle timer ( i don't have one and want to add it)
> 3. ** get the smoke hood** an absolute must!! I have mine in the garage and the ceiling is black and the placed filled with smoke many times.
> chalk it up to inexperience if you want but I say spend the $350 ( just bought one for this season)
> 4. Set the unit up on something 12" high its makes the fire box at a nice loading height. (i'm 5' 11")
> 5. get the Danfoss return water temp protection valve.
> 
> I will be shooting a video soon to prove to all the non believers that it does shut off the fire!!
> 
> The fan shuts off, the air valve closes and the fire goes out. period!
> No oxygen = No fire. very simple.


 
I only have one flue so I need the combo unit.  There have been some lengthy discussions about my situation, but the bottom line is I need a combo unit.  The oil gun is only costing me $340 because I plan to transfer my current oil burner and controls to the WG.

I don't plan on running the oil as "auto" backup.  I plan on it being a manual only switch.  I am going to make a label that says "REMOVE PLUG" for above the switch.

Ben told me the unit would include the low temp cutoff.  I am confirming again.

I will be wiring in my own timer on Ben's advice. 

Before you got the smoke hood, did you allow the unit to "purge" before opening the door?  Ben was adamant that the smoke hood is not necessary.

I need to watch clearances, I am in a basement and I'm not sure if I can raise the unit that much.  The E180 is significantly bigger than yours, I wonder if the load height is higher?

What does the return water temp protection valve do?  This unit is SS, why worry about condensing?

PLEASE shoot some video!

ac


----------



## Medman

Can one of you with the smoke hood tell me what the CFM rating of the blower is? I need to replace the blower on my hood and want something more powerful.

Thanks,

Ryan


----------



## muncybob

If you leave the "smoke shield" in place there is very little smoke escape, but I still semed to get some if the shield would pivot upwards when loading more splits. The shield became a PITA to me and I removed it. The only 2 ways I know of to basically eliminate any smoke is to either install the smoke exhaust fan or be sure to only load new wood when the unit is down to coals only. The former is much easier to manage than the latter.

Ryan, I forget the cfm on their fan but I do remember it was fairly strong....and it should be for 350 clams!


----------



## avc8130

muncybob said:


> If you leave the "smoke shield" in place there is very little smoke escape, but I still semed to get some if the shield would pivot upwards when loading more splits. The shield became a PITA to me and I removed it. The only 2 ways I know of to basically eliminate any smoke is to either install the smoke exhaust fan or be sure to only load new wood when the unit is down to coals only. The former is much easier to manage than the latter.
> 
> Ryan, I forget the cfm on their fan but I do remember it was fairly strong....and it should be for 350 clams!


 
I asked about the smoke shield.  He laughed and said no one installs them. 

Do you run the draft fan when re-loading?

ac


----------



## muncybob

avc8130 said:


> I asked about the smoke shield. He laughed and said no one installs them.
> 
> Do you run the draft fan when re-loading?
> 
> ac


 
It is a big NO NO to open the loading door w/o first running the fan...well, unless the boiler is stone cold. Actually, you are supposed to wait for the green light to come on after starting the fan which normally takes about 30 seconds or so. This is supposed to help evacuate any bad fumes in the box but also helps to start the draft of soke up the chimney.


----------



## mikefrommaine

avc8130 said:


> Before you got the smoke hood, did you allow the unit to "purge" before opening the door?  Ben was adamant that the smoke hood is not necessary.
> 
> ac



Then why do they sell it?

Unless the laws of physics are suspended inside the the woodgun i don't see how there won't be smoke. I'm sure it can be avoided by doing batch burns and only loading when the fire is completely out. But that is easier to do with storage than with a boiler destined to idle half the day.

I ran my boiler without storage last year and plan to add storage soon mostly because I got tired of waiting for the right time to load the boiler. If there were too many coals left over the new load would catch too quickly and i would get some smoke smell in the boiler room.


----------



## mikefrommaine

Double post deleted


----------



## infinitymike

Medman said:


> Can one of you with the smoke hood tell me what the CFM rating of the blower is? I need to replace the blower on my hood and want something more powerful.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Ryan


 
Its a 1/12th horsepower and 485 cfm


----------



## infinitymike

mikefrommaine said:


> Then why do they sell it?
> 
> Unless the laws of physics are suspended inside the the woodgun i don't see how there won't be smoke. I'm sure it can be avoided by doing batch burns and only loading when the fire is completely out. But that is easier to do with storage than with a boiler destined to idle half the day.
> 
> I ran my boiler without storage last year and plan to add storage soon mostly because I got tired of waiting for the right time to load the boiler. If there were too many coals left over the new load would catch too quickly and i would get some smoke smell in the boiler room.


 

 The wood gun is a little different then most units. It does not have a bypass damper that you open before opening the firebox door. So most of the time you will get smoke or at least very hot air that will roll out of the unit.


----------



## infinitymike

To piggy back Muncybob. When reloading the wood gun if the unit is off and up to tempature you must manually override it and turn on the fan. This will purge the gases that could cause a back draft "explosion". Because you are introducing oxygen into a air tight chamber that has hot coals and gases from the wood and they could ignite.

The draft fan is on whenever the unit is on and then the green light will be on which means you can open the door.

I didn't install the smoke flap either. It covers almost half the firebox opening and gets in the way when trying load the entire box.

Remember pics, lots of pics.

Here are a few of mine when it was delivered.  https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/here-she-is-boys.72496/


----------



## 711mhw

mikefrommaine said:


> Then why do they sell it?
> 
> Unless the laws of physics are suspended inside the the woodgun i don't see how there won't be smoke. I'm sure it can be avoided by doing batch burns and only loading when the fire is completely out. But that is easier to do with storage than with a boiler destined to idle half the day.
> quote]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You just don't get it! A WG does NOT idle!


----------



## mikefrommaine

i·dle   [ahyd-l]  Show IPA adjective, i·dler, i·dlest, verb i·dled, i·dling, noun
adjective
1.
not working or active; unemployed; doing nothing: idle workers.
2.
not spent or filled with activity: idle hours.
3.
not in use or operation; not kept busy: idle machinery.
4.
habitually doing nothing or avoiding work; lazy.
5.
of no real worth, importance, or significance: idle talk.

10.
to pass time doing nothing.
11.
to move, loiter, or saunter aimlessly: to idle along the avenue.
12.
(of a machine, engine, or mechanism) to operate at a low speed, disengaged from the load.

verb (used with object)
13.
to pass (time) doing nothing (often followed by away ): to idle away the afternoon.
14.
to cause (a person) to be idle: The strike idled many workers.
15.
to cause (a machine, engine, or mechanism) to idle: I waited in the car while idling the engine.
noun
16.
the state or quality of being idle.
17.
the state of a machine, engine, or mechanism that is idling: a cold engine that stalls at idle.
Origin: 
before 900; 1915–20 for def. 12; Middle English, Old English īdel  (adj.) empty, trifling, vain, useless; cognate with German eitel

Related forms
i·dle·ness, noun
i·dly, adverb
o·ver·i·dle, adjective
o·ver·i·dle·ness, noun
o·ver·i·dly, adverb
EXPAND

Can be confused:  idle, idol, idyll (see synonym note at the current entry ).

Synonyms 
1.  sluggish. Idle, indolent, lazy, slothful  apply to a person who is not active. To be idle  is to be inactive or not working at a job. The word is sometimes derogatory, but not always, since one may be relaxing temporarily or may be idle through necessity: pleasantly idle on a vacation; to be idle because one is unemployed or because supplies are lacking.  The indolent  person is naturally disposed to avoid exertion: indolent and slow in movement; an indolent and contented fisherman.  The lazy  person is averse to exertion or work, and especially to continued application; the word is usually derogatory: too lazy to earn a living; incurably lazy. Slothful  denotes a reprehensible unwillingness to carry one's share of the burden: so slothful as to be a burden on others. 5.  worthless, trivial, trifling. 7.  wasteful. 11. See loiter. 13.  waste. 

Antonyms 
1.  busy, industrious. 5.  important, worthwhile.


----------



## mikefrommaine

If its not in 'idle' mode than what do you call it?
I don't doubt the wood gun can extinguish its fire. But if it does put the fire out how does it relight itself?

I'm not trying to pick on the woodgun. But some of the claims seem contradictory. In the end I'm sure it will do the job as well as any other gassifier, and it's made in the USA!


----------



## muncybob

This has been debated previously...actually I think a few times. AHS marketing is questionable on this as I think it stretches the truth here. I believe there is some "idle" status, but it's very little. If you have established a good bed of hot coals the fire will "reignite" once the induction fan starts again. Depending on how much coals you have, the unit can be "idle" for a couple of hours and still get the fire going again when the fan turns on.
However, if there is not a good bed of hot coals and the system is in "idle" status for a prolonged period of time, you may not get re-ignition....hence the cycle timer.

...anyhow, it does work as intended and my experience has been that it is fairly efficient at burning wood for heat and DHW.

BTW ac, I had to set mine up so the draft fan did not run when the oil was firing due to excessive draft. I also had to insulate the ash pan and piping connected to it to avoid condensation when running oil. I'll be interested to see what your experience with oil will be.


----------



## avc8130

mikefrommaine said:


> If its not in 'idle' mode than what do you call it?
> I don't doubt the wood gun can extinguish its fire. But if it does put the fire out how does it relight itself?
> 
> I'm not trying to pick on the woodgun. But some of the claims seem contradictory. In the end I'm sure it will do the job as well as any other gassifier, and it's made in the USA!


 
I think "idling" seems to have a definition around these parts where a typical boiler is "running" with natural draft of the chimney only and there is no forced draft for gassification. 

The WG seals off the fire box and relies on the retained heat in the refractory to put the wood over its ignition temperature when oxygen is re-introduced.

The cycle timer works by keeping the heat up in the refractory/firebox.

I plan to try without the smoke hood.  Worst case I call Ben and order it later.  If it works out, I save $350...if not, oh well.

ac


----------



## avc8130

muncybob said:


> BTW ac, I had to set mine up so the draft fan did not run when the oil was firing due to excessive draft. I also had to insulate the ash pan and piping connected to it to avoid condensation when running oil. I'll be interested to see what your experience with oil will be.


 
I asked Ben about the draft fan and the oil function.  My oil setup will be designed off my own controls.  Backup will be 100% manual as I plan on running the plug in the oil chamber when running wood.  The draft fan will NOT be on when the oil is on, Ben confirmed this was the preferred method.

ac


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> The wood gun is a little different then most units. It does not have a bypass damper that you open before opening the firebox door. So most of the time you will get smoke or at least very hot air that will roll out of the unit.


 
I see you have the 100.  From looking at your pictures, your firebox is a flat top with the loading door almost at the ceiling.  On the 180 I ordered, the firebox has a curved ceiling and the load door was quite a bit lower than the roof of the firebox.  I wonder if that plays into the smoke spillage?

ac


----------



## infinitymike

mikefrommaine said:


> If its not in 'idle' mode than what do you call it?
> I don't doubt the wood gun can extinguish its fire. But if it does put the fire out how does it relight itself?


 
Oh boy here we go again.  I've stayed far away from these debates but since I've burned for a season and am now a professional I'll give it a go.

The design of the wood gun is that there is a fan at the bottom of the unit, below the gasification chamber, which pulls air from an air intake valve that is up in the back of the firebox.
The air is pulled over the wood and the coals and into the gasifaction chamber then through 2 other tubes and then is forced out into the chimney.

The air intake valve opens and closes with a motorized control box and has a silicon gasket that seals the firebox off completely. 
When you turn on the unit the fan starts and the air intake valve opens, which introduces oxygen into the fire box and begins to pull the air over the charcoal which will be  laying on the hot refractory cement. The air and the heat begin to ignite the charcoal.

Its like  blowing on a bed of coals in a fire pit and they start to glow red.

When the unit reaches temperature the fan shuts off and the air valve closes and seals tight. The unit is not idling it is off.
No oxygen can enter the fire box. And with no fan pulling air and no draft there can be no fire. It is OFF

I have opened the firebox door several hours after the unit shut off. Like I said it was shut OFF. There is no fire, no smoldering wood, no smoke and the coals are black.
I left the door open and watched with my own eyes as the fan is pulling air over the black charcoal it begin to shimmer a little hint of red and then begin to get redder and then more coals turn red and then poof a flame bursts out and then in a few minutes there is a roaring fire.

Now the conditions must be right. There refractory must be very hot from the previous fire and the coals must still be holding heat.
There have been times when the unit has been shut off for to long. I said off. and the fan kicks on and the air valve opens and it doesn't relight. There just wasn't enough heat.
Thats where I need to go out and open the firebox door and use a propane torch to light the coals. 

I'm tellin ya I am gonna shoot a video of this to settle it once and for all.


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> I'm tellin ya I am gonna shoot a video of this to settle it once and for all.


 
Will you stop threatening us please? 

ac


----------



## infinitymike

avc8130 said:


> Will you stop threatening us please?
> 
> ac



Oh,its not a threat but a promise 
Somebody has to do it so it might as well be me


----------



## muncybob

Mike, good description, but this is where I think the marketing claims are stretched a bit. Yes, the heat in the refractory is important but they would like you to think it's mainly the refractory heat that restarts the fire. If you have very little coals or no coals and a hot refractory I don't think a restart is feasible without  manual intervention, just as you stated.
I would agree however that the temp of the refractory preserves the coals to allow a relight after extended periods of time being off.

Looking forward to that video


----------



## infinitymike

muncybob said:


> Looking forward to that video




Me to


----------



## muncybob

avc8130 said:


> I asked Ben about the draft fan and the oil function. My oil setup will be designed off my own controls. Backup will be 100% manual as I plan on running the plug in the oil chamber when running wood. The draft fan will NOT be on when the oil is on, Ben confirmed this was the preferred method.
> 
> ac


 
There is a wire in the electrical box that I had to disconnect to stop the fan from running. I ran oil the other day to appease the Mrs one cold morning since I didn't have any wood in the house and by the time it got to 180*(about 30 min.) my stack temps were running close to 750! Won't do that again.


----------



## infinitymike

It's not just the refractory that needs to be hot but the coals themselves as well.
I'm not a physicist but I'm sure the coals have to have a lot of potential energy too. 
All I know is the the fire is definitely extinguished and the coals are black. And then there is a fire. 

I guess the wood gun has little fire gremlins that live inside the firebox. AHS never marketed those guys! ;-)


----------



## JP11

infinitymike said:


> It's not just the refractory that needs to be hot but the coals themselves as well.
> I'm not a physicist but I'm sure the coals have to have a lot of potential energy too.
> All I know is the the fire is definitely extinguished and the coals are black. And then there is a fire.
> 
> I guess the wood gun has little fire gremlins that live inside the firebox. AHS never marketed those guys! ;-)


I have no doubt the coals are black.  I think you're trying to re-write the laws of physics saying the wood is OUT.. Then starts again only using air and heat.  Gotta have a spark there.  The spark is in the wood!  you just can't see the coals still going.. IDLING!   would be the word I would use.

Now.. your wood gun may be OFF, more than my vigas sitting in MAX mode... and occasionally turning the fan on to KEEP the coals alive.

Why do you think firefighters douse the hell out of a fire site?  There's all kinds of coals buried in the fire that could relight with a little air and time.  I get that the wood gun cuts off the air.. but I don't think wood fires have an on/off switch.



I'm sure it's a good boiler.  I chose a different one.  I think we'll both be warm this winter.

JP


----------



## avc8130

muncybob said:


> There is a wire in the electrical box that I had to disconnect to stop the fan from running. I ran oil the other day to appease the Mrs one cold morning since I didn't have any wood in the house and by the time it got to 180*(about 30 min.) my stack temps were running close to 750! Won't do that again.


 
I plan to install my oil setup as a complete stand alone control system.  My main switch will completely un-power the WG fan/intake motor and power up the oil setup.  There is no way the fan will be on.

I'm surprised by that stack temp.  The volume for the oil burner to work in is quite large, but I guess the oil has trouble putting heat INTO the refractory like the wood does.  Instead it relies on putting heat into the dedicated exchanger.  BTW: the E180 has a significantly different oil design than the 100/140.

ac


----------



## avc8130

I think it really depends how you define "fire".  

Noun: 
Combustion or burning, in which substances combine chemically with oxygen from the air and typically give out bright light, heat, and smoke.

With no source of oxygen, that seems like that definition would be impossible to meet.  The starting of a fire is done when the medium is brought to its ignition point in the presence of oxygen.  The refractory maintains the "coals" at their ignition point (572F) and when air is introduced: FIRE.​​Idling is more like closing the damper down ALMOST closed and still maintaining a FIRE.​ 
​


----------



## infinitymike

Like I said before   Here we go again! Round and round the merry go round. Will it ever stop or will it just idle 

Hey what about this   Ever rub to sticks together and blow on it? Like the Indians? Hmmm.... No spark, just heat and forced air and then fire!  Maybe the guys who created the wood gun have an Indian heritage.


----------



## mikefrommaine

infinitymike said:


> Like I said before   Here we go again! Round and round the merry go round. Will it ever stop or will it just idle
> 
> Hey what about this   Ever rub to sticks together and blow on it? Like the Indians? Hmmm.... No spark, just heat and forced air and then fire!  Maybe the guys who created the wood gun have an Indian heritage.



Well technically you use friction to create a hot coal or ember which you as a source of ignition or the spark to create fire.


----------



## mikefrommaine

Wood Has an immolation point of about 745 degrees so if the refractory is below that point there is no way the wood can reignite. Unless of course it was never really out.


----------



## Fred61

I won't go any farther than this post about what I think of the Wood Gun because I tried to post my experiences with the unit and was accused of bashing the product.
I will say that after running the beast for 10 years, I concluded that there needs to be a small ember somewhere in the pile of coals in order for the Wood Gun to re-ignite.
Bob is correct in stating that the hot refractory helps support the spark but there needs to be a glowing ember, even smaller than a pea somewhere in there. The speed that the Wood Gun moves the air helps that ember spread rapidly.
I'm sure you learned alot in the year that you have run the Wood Gun but you will know more after you get 10 years experience under your belt.


----------



## avc8130

Enough arguing about idling/off.  Let's discuss some install options.

My current setup has a Taco 007 pump supplying 5 zones each controlled by a zone valve.  Is this a good application for a Grundfos Alpha?  From what I understand it sounds like a great idea.  Since it is unlikely that all 5 zones call for heat at once, the variable pump should be ideal when only 1 or a few zones call, right?

The 2nd "option" is figuring out how to plumb in the water heater.  I will be installing an electric heater to use when I am not running the WG in the warm months.  I plan to hook my current indirect up to the WG with its own circuit just like it is off my current oil boiler.  I figure there are 2 options to plumb this in:
1. Parallel.  This would let me select which system to use and I could drain the other.  A few ball valves would make this very easy.  This method is simple and would also force me to clear the sediment out.
2. Series.  I could plumb the indirect first in line with the electric after it.  Then when the WG is running, I could set the aquastat on the indirect high enough that the electric never kicks on (even with standby loss?).  If the WG isn't running, the electric would heat only the normal quantity of water it was designed for.  This method provides more of an "auto" backup, but may wind up costing me a few bucks in electricity if the standby losses on the electric cause the water from the indirect to go too cold.

ac


----------



## infinitymike

avc8130 said:


> Enough arguing about idling/off.  Let's discuss some install options.
> ac



Awh,  it was starting to get fun! 

Actually I am sorry that your  thread got hijacked. 

I don't know enough about the engineering mechanics to help with your design. I'm actually still not sure which way to hook up the two indirects that I have. 
But what I do know is that there are plenty of guys here that do and are always generous with their time and experience.


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> Awh, it was starting to get fun!
> 
> Actually I am sorry that your thread got hijacked.
> 
> I don't know enough about the engineering mechanics to help with your design. I'm actually still not sure which way to hook up the two indirects that I have.
> But what I do know is that there are plenty of guys here that do and are always generous with their time and experience.


 
We can keep discussing, but clearly I agree with you and all of the marketing hype.  Sealed means no fire.  A fire without oxygen defies the laws of physics more than a dormant one restarting at the introduction of heat AND oxygen.

Are you using your WG to make hot water?

How's that video coming?

ac


----------



## infinitymike

avc8130 said:


> Are you using your WG to make hot water?
> Not yet. I did buy the WG with a DHW coil. I ended up with 2 indirect water tanks, one from ebay and one from my plumber for free. Nothing has been hooked up yet. I cant believe its almost burning time again and I still haven't hooked them up.
> How's that video coming?
> I will start on it pretty soon. Should be interesting to say the least.
> 
> ac


----------



## BoilerMan

I'd pipe the two water heaters in parallel. The series configuration will waste electricity because the electric will still come on due to standby losses. The only way to avoid this is to set it up for thermosyphon somehow, the only advantage to that would be a large amount of stored hot water, which it sounds like you don't need. No huge hot tub to fill, 10 consecutive showers, etc. When your boilermate craps out, you can use a sidearm, or flat plate with pump, on the electric. All in one, the elements should never come on during fireing, and if the tank drops, then voila it's got electric backup. Just find out the max temp the tnak can take so not to damage the insulation. And an ASSE 1017 mixing valve.

I call that the poor man's indirect. 

TS


----------



## infinitymike

avc8130 said:


> What does the return water temp protection valve do? This unit is SS, why worry about condensing?
> 
> ac


 
The return temp protection valve prevents cold return water from dumping into the unit and  automatically controls the return water temperature, preventing condensation of the water vapor contained in the flue gas. The valve mixes by-pass flow from the boiler with return flow from the system, sending a fixed temperature flow to the boiler which protects against corrosion from condensation occurring when a minimum flue gas temperature is not otherwise maintained.  Even though I have the stainless steel firebox also I still installed one. I figured it couldn't hurt.  Plus I think it helps get the water up to temp faster.


----------



## avc8130

Taylor Sutherland said:


> I'd pipe the two water heaters in parallel. The series configuration will waste electricity because the electric will still come on due to standby losses. The only way to avoid this is to set it up for thermosyphon somehow, the only advantage to that would be a large amount of stored hot water, which it sounds like you don't need. No huge hot tub to fill, 10 consecutive showers, etc. When your boilermate craps out, you can use a sidearm, or flat plate with pump, on the electric. All in one, the elements should never come on during fireing, and if the tank drops, then voila it's got electric backup. Just find out the max temp the tnak can take so not to damage the insulation. And an ASSE 1017 mixing valve.
> 
> I call that the poor man's indirect.
> 
> TS


 
TS,

I came to the same conclusion about plumbing in parallel, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything.

When the boiler mate craps out, I will probably just buy the DHW coil for the WG.  All WG come with the post to accept the coil, so it will probably be the cheapest option when the time comes.  

ac


----------



## BoilerMan

avc, you can then use the DHW coil as the heat source for the electric during fireing.  Domestic water circulates through the coil and the electric tank.  Like an indirect, but with the coil in the boiler instead of in the tank.  It's been done many times in an old oil boiler with a domestic coil, the coil scales up and does not produce enough water anymore, you put in an electric water heater but run the water through the coil in the boiler with a bronze circulator hookes to the electric's thermostat.  Worke great, much less $$$$ than an indirect.

The poorest man's indirect.

TS


----------



## Gasifier

avc8130,

My experience with the wood gun is fairly limited. One year in now. I heat my whole house (4000+ sq.ft.), my garage (900 sq.ft.), and my DHW. I have been heating my DHW all spring, summer, and up to now with one or two short fires a day. I think you will like the wood gun. With regular scheduled cleaning and a little maintenance, I think you will find it to be a good wood burning appliance.

AHS and these fine, outstanding gentlemen on hearth.com who have experience with burning the wood gun can claim whatever they want. As far as keeping your fire going, I have found only a couple of things can effect that on a regular basis: Please see below.













Exercise is good. Stretch first.













And keep yourself in good shape and spirits. Positive thinking is very important.





Good luck with the install man. And keep us posted. Pics. Or it didn't happen.


----------



## avc8130

Gasifier said:


> avc8130,
> 
> My experience with the wood gun is fairly limited. One year in now. I heat my whole house (4000+ sq.ft.), my garage (900 sq.ft.), and my DHW. I have been heating my DHW all spring, summer, and up to now with one or two short fires a day. I think you will like the wood gun. With regular scheduled cleaning and a little maintenance, I think you will find it to be a good wood burning appliance.
> 
> Good luck with the install man. And keep us posted. Pics. Or it didn't happen.


 
Hmm...I am intrigued.  You heat ALL of that with a 100?  How often are you re-loading?

How does your non-heating DHW work for you?  I am hesitant to use the WG for DHW when I'm not heating as I have heard it throws off a lot of heat.

ac


----------



## maple1

I have a friend with a WG 100 and he does all his summer DHW with just it and the coil. One small fire a day, I think. He's very happy with his and it doesn't seem to throw off that much extra heat. I suspect even if you were to just incorporate an indirect tank, you could likely space that out to every couple of days if it was a good size & well insulated.

On all the 'idling' debate - call it idling or call it something else, but from all I have seen & heard & read, my bottom line takeaway is that I think the WG does gasifying without storage better than the other guys.


----------



## avc8130

maple1 said:


> I have a friend with a WG 100 and he does all his summer DHW with just it and the coil. One small fire a day, I think. He's very happy with his and it doesn't seem to throw off that much extra heat. I suspect even if you were to just incorporate an indirect tank, you could likely space that out to every couple of days if it was a good size & well insulated.
> 
> On all the 'idling' debate - call it idling or call it something else, but from all I have seen & heard & read, my bottom line takeaway is that I think the WG does gasifying without storage better than the other guys.


 
How much house does your friend heat with his 100?

I guess he does his daily small fire in the morning right before showers? 

My setup will have an indirect.  I planned on only using it during the heating season, that is subject to change.

ac


----------



## Seasoned Oak

I cant seem to find prices for this stove and there are no reviews in the stove reviews section under alternate heating systems,the company name.


----------



## maple1

avc8130 said:


> How much house does your friend heat with his 100?
> 
> I guess he does his daily small fire in the morning right before showers?
> 
> My setup will have an indirect. I planned on only using it during the heating season, that is subject to change.
> 
> ac


 
He doesn't have a big house. It is just single story, maybe 1200 sq.ft.? (A guess). With full basement. Not sure when he lights, but he said at that point (water too cool to shower with) it only takes 5 minutes of burning and he's got all the hot water he needs. The coil is situated in the right spot for that.


----------



## maple1

Seasoned Oak said:


> I cant seem to find prices for this stove and there are no reviews in the stove reviews section under alternate heating systems,the company name.


 
It's not a stove, it's a boiler. I think there were prices mentioned earlier in the thread.


----------



## avc8130

maple1 said:


> He doesn't have a big house. It is just single story, maybe 1200 sq.ft.? (A guess). With full basement. Not sure when he lights, but he said at that point (water too cool to shower with) it only takes 5 minutes of burning and he's got all the hot water he needs. The coil is situated in the right spot for that.


 
I believe that, I'm just not sure I care to wake up and go downstairs in the summer when the air conditioning is on and start a fire just to take a shower.  It's not 1850 any more.  $20/month to prevent me from having to burn wood in the summer doesn't bother me.  Obviously this is subject to change 

ac


----------



## Gasifier

avc8130 said:


> Hmm...I am intrigued. You heat ALL of that with a 100? How often are you re-loading?
> 
> How does your non-heating DHW work for you? I am hesitant to use the WG for DHW when I'm not heating as I have heard it throws off a lot of heat.
> 
> ac


  That depends on what the temperature is outside. The 100 actually throws a lot more heat than what it is rated for. When I talked with the people at AHS they said that eventually they would be discontinueing the E140 because it turned out to be to big for most peoples homes. That the E100 would push out something higher than 120-130 thousand BTU. Of course that depends on a lot of factors. If you have a good bed of coals for good gassification, what kind of wood, etc. etc. etc.  When it was at it's coldest last winter, which was not very cold, I could go for over 10 hours until reload time. My 400 gallon buffer tank really adds to the system. That can buy me another 1-2 hours when good and hot.

Now I have to remind people. My boiler is in my basement. It radiates off so much heat that the call for heat never comes from the basement. Now you can subtract 825 feet off from the 4000+ sq.ft. The garage has it's own thermostat and has radiant heat in the slab and is insulated with spray foam in the walls and ceiling. That is kept at 45 degrees in the winter. So there is not much demand there. The laundry, office, and spare bedrooms and bath above the garage are kept at about 65. The other 2400 sq. ft. or so is kept about 70. This boiler is plenty capable of heating this house.  The oil boiler for this house was sized at 129000 BTU. Partly because I told the furnace man that I would be improving the insulation to the house over the next few years. Which I did. Each time I do a remodel, I greatly improve the insulation in that area. The E100 seems to be able to keep up no problem.

The wood gun does throw off a lot of heat. I have mine in the basement and there is a window in the boiler room. When it is warm out, I put a fan in the window and blow the heat outside. Just opening another window in the basement creates a good breeze with the fan. I heat my tank up at night before I go to bed, then the hot water is ready in the morning. My buffer tank is fairly well insulated.


----------



## avc8130

That's impressive.  That's a lot of house for the 100 to keep up with so well.  

I spoke to the guys at AHS (Ben) and he said I would need the 180 for my 2500 sq ft 1st floor ranch with vaulted ceilings + 1k sq ft basement (separate from the WG) + my 1500 sq ft well insulated work shop (separate building).  I told him I wanted 12 hour burn capability in Northern NJ.

Throwing that excess heat is what has me hesitant to heat DHW with the WG in the spring/summer.  I don't want to be warming an area I am also paying to try to cool in the spirit of saving money.

How is your buffer tank setup?  Are there pics on the forum somewhere?

ac


----------



## Gasifier

That's impressive. That's a lot of house for the 100 to keep up with so well. It does it really well. I am very happy with it's performance. Like I said, I think it puts more than what it is rated at. 

I spoke to the guys at AHS (Ben) and he said I would need the 180 for my 2500 sq ft 1st floor ranch with vaulted ceilings + 1k sq ft basement (separate from the WG) + my 1500 sq ft well insulated work shop (separate building). I told him I wanted 12 hour burn capability in Northern NJ.

I would think the 180 would heat that no problem. I do not know your insulation factor, layout, baseboard or radiant, windows, etc. etc. Did you do a heat loss calculation? Here is something I would consider. A lot of the time that 180 is not going to be needing to put out all the BTUs it can put out. Again, I do not know all your particulars. But are you eventually going to install well insulated storage tanks? I would think that 1500-2000 gallons of well insulated storage would really help. AHS will say you do not need storage. They are correct. But you will be better off with it. Imagine being able to burn your Wood Gun and all your wood flat out, that is the most efficient way, and then shut it down and let it heat your demand for as long as your storage will heat it. I installed my 400 gallon tank and am very glad I did. That is all I could afford at the time. Maybe if you are not going with storage now, you could plan for that in the future.

Throwing that excess heat is what has me hesitant to heat DHW with the WG in the spring/summer. I don't want to be warming an area I am also paying to try to cool in the spirit of saving money.

This is true. I try to do the best I can to keep the areas seperated and keeping that heat blowing out the window in the basement when it is hot outside.

How is your buffer tank setup? Are there pics on the forum somewhere?

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/wood-gun-boiler-and-tank-pictures.74171/#post-938495

Here is a little about how it got done.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/moving-in-the-tank-pictures-i.74168/#post-938169

Ask questions to the guys on this forum. I will answer any I can. But there are more knowledgable people here and they can really help you to get a good set-up for your system. I am very happy with the way my system came out. I did quite a bit of research, asked questions, and then put my own experiences into the mix. All and all, spent a lot of money, but now I am saving a lot of money. And burning no oil! That's what I'm talkin about.


----------



## avc8130

Gasifier,

Basically we have a 2500 sq ft RANCH with a lot of vaulted ceilings and Anderson windows/sky lights. 1500 sq ft is 2x4 1980 and the remaining 1000 sq ft is 2x6 2000 construction. Heat is with hot water baseboards. I did my best attempt at a heat loss calculation, and I THINK I am around 65k btu/hr for the house. The workshop is ~50k btu/hr.  I used Build it Solar for the calculation.

So total the design should be for 115k btu/hr plus DHW demand.  

What confuses me is that my oil burner has a 1.25 gph nozzle.  That will deliver 175k btu (140k/gallon) x the efficiency: ~80% = 140k btu/hr.  This does NOT heat my shop.

Who's math is horribly wrong?  I sized the 180 based on my current oil capability + the current propane capability in my work shop (gone).  That lead me to the 180 being just UNDER what I though I needed and I figured I could under-heat the shop if that became an issue on those days.  I don't plan to heat the shop constantly as it is just a hobby and not priority.

Storage will be added depending on how my experience is this winter. Right now saving the cost has a lot of value to me.

I'm gonna check out your threads. Thanks!

ac


----------



## avc8130

Thinking about this more...what is a proper btu load for DHW?

I did some math:
2 GPM requirement (is this reasonable for 3 bath, 4 person house?)
60 mins/hour
8.33 lbs/gallon
Incoming water temp: 50F
Desired water temp: 120F

2*60*8.33*(120-50)= 70k btu/hr

Add that to my original house load of 50k btu/hr and we are at 120 btu/hr if the house is calling for heat and the showers are running.  Maybe the oil burner wasn't too far oversized for WORST CASE condition?

What is the disadvantage to having a bigger WG than I NEED?  I assume I can have smaller fires to reduce btu output on days that are warmer and have less heat demand.  I know AHS doesn't suggest more wood than needed for 12 hours.  Is the biggest disadvantage spending the initial $1k extra?

ac


----------



## mark123

I have the E-180 and have been running it for 2 winters now. Make sure your unit has the rope seals on the rear and lower door, mine came with the silicone seals and they did not last long. As for the oil plug, I did not have much luck with it, just before I went on vacation I took it out to fire the oil and it would not work, the oil burner was all sooted from wood smoke leaking past the plug. What happened with mine is that when it started chugging the oil plug eventually started moving and became oval shaped and did not seal. I ended up welding 4 stainless studs around the opening and made a 1/4" steel plate which covers the opening and is held there with 4 nuts. It only takes a minute to remove and seals the wood smoke out . I only use the oil burner if I go away for more than a few days in the winter. You WILL need the exhaust fan, no question about it. I heat 4000sf and it has no problem at all. I also use it all summer for domestic water, every morning I put in 2 spruce or poplar 4-5" rounds and some kindling and my wife turns the boiler off 2-3 hours later and that gives us enough hot water until the the next day. If you want to know anything else about the 180 let me know. When you have your smoke pipe all laid out take it and have it all TIG welded. I originally sealed it all with high temp silicone and one day all the silicone set on fire and my wife called me and told me the house was going to burn down from the flame, very scary but nothing in the basement caught fire. Some charcoal must have made it's way into the smoke pipe and started burning.


----------



## avc8130

mark123 said:


> I have the E-180 and have been running it for 2 winters now. Make sure your unit has the rope seals on the rear and lower door, mine came with the silicone seals and they did not last long. As for the oil plug, I did not have much luck with it, just before I went on vacation I took it out to fire the oil and it would not work, the oil burner was all sooted from wood smoke leaking past the plug. What happened with mine is that when it started chugging the oil plug eventually started moving and became oval shaped and did not seal. I ended up welding 4 stainless studs around the opening and made a 1/4" steel plate which covers the opening and is held there with 4 nuts. It only takes a minute to remove and seals the wood smoke out . I only use the oil burner if I go away for more than a few days in the winter. You WILL need the exhaust fan, no question about it. I heat 4000sf and it has no problem at all. I also use it all summer for domestic water, every morning I put in 2 spruce or poplar 4-5" rounds and some kindling and my wife turns the boiler off 2-3 hours later and that gives us enough hot water until the the next day. If you want to know anything else about the 180 let me know. When you have your smoke pipe all laid out take it and have it all TIG welded. I originally sealed it all with high temp silicone and one day all the silicone set on fire and my wife called me and told me the house was going to burn down from the flame, very scary but nothing in the basement caught fire. Some charcoal must have made it's way into the smoke pipe and started burning.


 
I went to Chambersburg, PA and visited AHS last week before putting a deposit down.  The lower and rear door were both sealed with fiberglass rope. 

That is disappointing to hear about the oil plug.  What is "chugging"?  Do you have any pictures of your modification?

I'm working on plans to make a smoke hood.  I figure 24" wide and 8" deep.  Does that sound about right?  Any chance you could take some dimensions for me?

Are you using the DHW coil for that?  I wonder how that would work with my indirect.  I could superheat the indirect up to max aquastat setting (150?) and then run a mixing valve back down to 120 at the top.

That is quite scary about the chimney pipe.  Where is a good source for SS pipe to use?

Thanks for the help!

ac


----------



## mark123

Chugging is when it sounds like someone hyper-ventalating and I find my boiler does this if there is a lot of very dry wood, or a lot of cardboard. The only solution seems to be choking the air supply by closing the damper over but I don't like doing that because it seems to produce more charcoal which ends up in the smoke pipe so I just let her chug away. They were working on some sort of modified air inlet pipe which goes in the firebox, you should ask them about it. I will get some pictures for you later. I also made my own smoke hood and used a fan which I found through google which are commonly used in hydroponic growing operations, it moves around 400cfm and there are times when smoke even escapes it. My smoke pipe came from a local sheetmetal shop which makes it, there seams are crimped and leak a tiny bit of smoke, I would get factory made pipe next time with welded seams. I heat my boiler up to around 180 before I shut it down in the summer time and when it is shut down the pump associated with the return themal mixing valves continues to run circulating the water within, the boiler, I get much more useful hot water this way rather than shutting everything down, I am also going to try and insulate the bottom of the boiler with fiberglass insulation and help hold more heat in for summer use. The boiler radiates a lot of heat, my wood room is pretty well sealed and gets up to 90 degrees during the winter which is great for drying the wood.


----------



## avc8130

mark123 said:


> Chugging is when it sounds like someone hyper-ventalating and I find my boiler does this if there is a lot of very dry wood, or a lot of cardboard. The only solution seems to be choking the air supply by closing the damper over but I don't like doing that because it seems to produce more charcoal which ends up in the smoke pipe so I just let her chug away. They were working on some sort of modified air inlet pipe which goes in the firebox, you should ask them about it. I will get some pictures for you later. I also made my own smoke hood and used a fan which I found through google which are commonly used in hydroponic growing operations, it moves around 400cfm and there are times when smoke even escapes it. My smoke pipe came from a local sheetmetal shop which makes it, there seams are crimped and leak a tiny bit of smoke, I would get factory made pipe next time with welded seams. I heat my boiler up to around 180 before I shut it down in the summer time and when it is shut down the pump associated with the return themal mixing valves continues to run circulating the water within, the boiler, I get much more useful hot water this way rather than shutting everything down, I am also going to try and insulate the bottom of the boiler with fiberglass insulation and help hold more heat in for summer use. The boiler radiates a lot of heat, my wood room is pretty well sealed and gets up to 90 degrees during the winter which is great for drying the wood.


 
I spoke to AHS and their solution to the chugging is exactly what you mentioned: damper down the intake. 

Please take pics!  I love pics!

ac


----------



## Gasifier

avc8130 said:


> Gasifier,
> 
> Basically we have a 2500 sq ft RANCH with a lot of vaulted ceilings and Anderson windows/sky lights. 1500 sq ft is 2x4 1980 and the remaining 1000 sq ft is 2x6 2000 construction. Heat is with hot water baseboards. I did my best attempt at a heat loss calculation, and I THINK I am around 65k btu/hr for the house. The workshop is ~50k btu/hr. I used Build it Solar for the calculation.
> 
> So total the design should be for 115k btu/hr plus DHW demand.
> 
> What confuses me is that my oil burner has a 1.25 gph nozzle. That will deliver 175k btu (140k/gallon) x the efficiency: ~80% = 140k btu/hr. This does NOT heat my shop.
> 
> Who's math is horribly wrong? I sized the 180 based on my current oil capability + the current propane capability in my work shop (gone). That lead me to the 180 being just UNDER what I though I needed and I figured I could under-heat the shop if that became an issue on those days. I don't plan to heat the shop constantly as it is just a hobby and not priority.
> 
> Storage will be added depending on how my experience is this winter. Right now saving the cost has a lot of value to me.
> 
> I'm gonna check out your threads. Thanks!
> 
> ac


 
If you are not heating the shop constantly, which is very understandable, I think that 180 will be shutting down quite a bit. If the 180 puts out closer to 200-210, like my 100 probably puts out closer to 120-130, you will have plenty of shut down time. With the hot water demand added in that will help, but I have 2 adults and three kids in my house. Another adult, college student, there every so often. The hot water demand does not seem to add that much to the Wood Gun's tasking.

I think you will be fine avc. But, I think you will be much better off when you have your storage added in. It will all come with time. The first year will give you a great chance to get use to the Wood Gun. Good luck with it, and keep us posted.


----------



## avc8130

Gasifier said:


> If you are not heating the shop constantly, which is very understandable, I think that 180 will be shutting down quite a bit. If the 180 puts out closer to 200-210, like my 100 probably puts out closer to 120-130, you will have plenty of shut down time. With the hot water demand added in that will help, but I have 2 adults and three kids in my house. Another adult, college student, there every so often. The hot water demand does not seem to add that much to the Wood Gun's tasking.
> 
> I think you will be fine avc. But, I think you will be much better off when you have your storage added in. It will all come with time. The first year will give you a great chance to get use to the Wood Gun. Good luck with it, and keep us posted.


 

I spoke to Ben at AHS about that.  I will be installing a cycle timer to help with the "down time" a bit. 

I'm not sure if I understand DHW.  I did the calculations above based on 2 GPM.  Then I realized the WG coil is rated for 5 GPM.  That would mean close to 150k btu/hr...IF the hot water was running 5 GPM for an hour.  It seems DHW is a very REAL load, but it might not be significant since it is so short lived generally.

My house DHW was designed to support a family of 6 operating 3 showers, running on 2 cycles.  I imagine that really drove their decision to go with the indirect water heater, the 140k btu oil setup and the 3/4" piping througout.

ac


----------



## Gasifier

avc8130 said:


> I spoke to Ben at AHS about that. I will be installing a cycle timer to help with the "down time" a bit.
> 
> I'm not sure if I understand DHW. I did the calculations above based on 2 GPM. Then I realized the WG coil is rated for 5 GPM. That would mean close to 150k btu/hr...IF the hot water was running 5 GPM for an hour. It seems DHW is a very REAL load, but it might not be significant since it is so short lived generally.
> 
> My house DHW was designed to support a family of 6 operating 3 showers, running on 2 cycles. I imagine that really drove their decision to go with the indirect water heater, the 140k btu oil setup and the 3/4" piping througout.
> 
> ac


 
I do not know enough to help you with the calculations on DHW. But it sounds like you have about the same demand as I do. It is a REAL load. But is short lived in our case. We do occasionally let each of the three young children take a hot bath in the Jet Tub. That can put a demand on the hot water heater. This happens more in the winter when the wife and kids want a long hot bath when it is freezing cold outside.

So are you going to be using the coil in the 180 to heat your hot water or using the 180 to heat the indirect hot water heater?  I use an indirect hot water heater. Triangle Tube smart series. http://www.triangletube.com/TriangleTubeProduct.aspx?CatID=6&PID=2 It has been running smoothly for about 9 or 10 years now I guess. Very happy with that. The oil  burner use to heat it, now the Wood Gun heats it.


----------



## avc8130

Gasifier said:


> I do not know enough to help you with the calculations on DHW. But it sounds like you have about the same demand as I do. It is a REAL load. But is short lived in our case. We do occasionally let each of the three young children take a hot bath in the Jet Tub. That can put a demand on the hot water heater. This happens more in the winter when the wife and kids want a long hot bath when it is freezing cold outside.
> 
> So are you going to be using the coil in the 180 to heat your hot water or using the 180 to heat the indirect hot water heater? I use an indirect hot water heater. Triangle Tube smart series. http://www.triangletube.com/TriangleTubeProduct.aspx?CatID=6&PID=2 It has been running smoothly for about 9 or 10 years now I guess. Very happy with that. The oil burner use to heat it, now the Wood Gun heats it.


 
We have a jet tub...but in the 2 years living in this house I have never seen it full.

I did not order a coil in the 180.  I plan to use my current indirect setup.  I don't know the brand/model off the top of my head, but it is nothing fancy.

ac


----------



## velvetfoot

Just chiming in.  Probably the ubiquitous BoilerMate like mine.  Maybe not fancy but not cheap either.
Please resume...


----------



## infinitymike

If you have an indirect then I don't think there is any need for the coil.

Unfortunately, I ordered mine with the coil and still haven't hooked it up yet. I ended up getting 2 indirect 50 gallon tanks. one for free that is only a year old and a new one for $175 on ebay.
Now there is no reason for the coil. At least I think.

One thing I learned here, is to take it slow and do the research. Things can always be added as time goes on. 
It's amazing what a year will do. I learned so much here and in the real world experience it just amazing.
The main reason for me buying the WG was that it "_didn't"  _need storage (lets leave that debate for another thread). 
In fact I don't know how well it would help since I have baseboard heat which needs 160- 180* water not much delta-t there.

Hey on another note you said you would be getting it tomorrow, is that still gonna happen. 
PICS, PICS and more PICS


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> If you have an indirect then I don't think there is any need for the coil.
> 
> Unfortunately, I ordered mine with the coil and still haven't hooked it up yet. I ended up getting 2 indirect 50 gallon tanks. one for free that is only a year old and a new one for $175 on ebay.
> Now there is no reason for the coil. At least I think.
> 
> One thing I learned here, is to take it slow and do the research. Things can always be added as time goes on.
> It's amazing what a year will do. I learned so much here and in the real world experience it just amazing.
> The main reason for me buying the WG was that it "_didn't" _need storage (lets leave that debate for another thread).
> In fact I don't know how well it would help since I have baseboard heat which needs 160- 180* water not much delta-t there.
> 
> Hey on another note you said you would be getting it tomorrow, is that still gonna happen.
> PICS, PICS and more PICS


 
Hook up SOMETHING.  Stop paying the oil man for hot water when you are stuffing the wood box full anyways!

I'm in the same boat.  Baseboard heat wanting 160-180.  Not much delta T would mean LOTS of storage to get any real btu that would last a worthwhile time.

The unit will SHIP tomorrow.  I should have it either Friday or Monday.  Of course there will be pics.  Just wait til you see how we get it in the house.  I THINK it will fit!

ac


----------



## infinitymike

avc8130 said:


> Hook up SOMETHING. Stop paying the oil man for hot water when you are stuffing the wood box full anyways!
> 
> I know I can't take it anymore. I'm down to a 1/4 tank and really don't want to see the oil man again! It will be cold before we know it and then I won't  want to drain the system down.
> 
> I'm in the same boat. Baseboard heat wanting 160-180. Not much delta T would mean LOTS of storage to get any real btu that would last a worthwhile time.
> 
> Maybe I will get two 1000 gallon tanks. I have a two car garage that I thought about cutting the slab and digging out a mechanics pit and dropping them in. One in each bay!
> But eventually I would like to install staple up radiant.
> 
> The unit will SHIP tomorrow. I should have it either Friday or Monday. Of course there will be pics. Just wait til you see how we get it in the house. I THINK it will fit!
> 
> That should be interesting. That thing is damn heavy. whatcha gonna do? cut a hole in the roof and floor and drop it in with a crane!
> Fortunately for me, I put mine in the garage. and it was quite simple.
> ac


----------



## avc8130

I'm in a similar boat.  My oil tanks are sitting just below 1/4 heating INTO heating season.  I'm burning 1/2 gallon/day heating DHW right now and I am NOT happy about it.  

Your storage idea sounds like quite the plan.  I find it tough to see the pay back.  That's ANOTHER large chunk of change and really what do you gain with the WG?

Cutting the roof/floor sounds like the easiest idea!  It is going in my basement.  
1st we need to get it off my trailer.
2nd it needs to go across the gravel patio.
Then the 31" wide unit needs to sneak in through the 32" sliding door (this is with the door removed).
Then we have to go up 1 step and through a 33" door.  
Then across the basement to the final resting spot.

Should be fun!

ac


----------



## infinitymike

The storage is a wish list item. I heated my house just fine last year no creosote in the flue and almost nothing firebox. 

Sounds like you are going to need some plywood, steel pipes, pry bars, few Egyptians and a lot of elbow grease.


----------



## BoilerMan

infinitymike said:


> few Egyptians and a lot of elbow grease.


 
Hahahahahahahaha

Just what I was thinken'

TS


----------



## Gasifier

I just couldn't remember which one he was going with Mike. Definitely don't need the coil *and* the indirect hot water heater Mike. Only a point dexter would do that. Oh. Sorry about that Mike.  I would agree with the steel pipes and the Egyptians though.  

How the hell ya doin pal? Have the neighbors sent the patty wagon to your door yet? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Hey that guy down the street has enough wood to heat the whole neighborhood for the winter, ya better come and take him away!


----------



## maple1

avc8130 said:


> I'm in a similar boat. My oil tanks are sitting just below 1/4 heating INTO heating season. I'm burning 1/2 gallon/day heating DHW right now and I am NOT happy about it.
> 
> Your storage idea sounds like quite the plan. I find it tough to see the pay back. That's ANOTHER large chunk of change and really what do you gain with the WG?
> 
> Cutting the roof/floor sounds like the easiest idea! It is going in my basement.
> 1st we need to get it off my trailer.
> 2nd it needs to go across the gravel patio.
> Then the 31" wide unit needs to sneak in through the 32" sliding door (this is with the door removed).
> Then we have to go up 1 step and through a 33" door.
> Then across the basement to the final resting spot.
> 
> Should be fun!
> 
> ac


 
Compared to the cost of the new boiler and all your options, and installation and associated materials and all that, the extra cost of adding storage is minor. I haven't done the adding up yet (I will when I'm done although I don't think it will do my heart any good), but figure I'm right around $1000 for my storage. That should cover my tanks, transporting them around, the welding of fittings, and some left over for some valves. It'll be past that when it comes time to do the covering & insulating, but still quite a small proportion of the overall project.

EDIT: Agreed though, the WG seems to be quite capable of running good without storage.


----------



## avc8130

I have a skid steer, a tractor, 2 pallet jacks, and assortment of pallets, a lumberyard worth of wood, black pipes, come-along and a lot of friends + beer lined up for the moving operation.

Storage decision will be made after a year's worth of experience. 

ac


----------



## infinitymike

avc8130 said:


> I have a skid steer, a tractor, 2 pallet jacks, and assortment of pallets, a lumberyard worth of wood, black pipes, come-along and a lot of friends + beer lined up for the moving operation.
> 
> Storage decision will be made after a year's worth of experience.
> 
> ac



Now ya talking!


----------



## muncybob

That should do it ac, it's how we got ours into the basement. It was a very tight fit for us but we managed it with barely a scratch on the WG.


----------



## infinitymike

AC,  are you going to do the install? Or do you have a plumber lined up?


----------



## avc8130

muncybob said:


> That should do it ac, it's how we got ours into the basement. It was a very tight fit for us but we managed it with barely a scratch on the WG.


 
I have 15 lbs of Crisco on standby!


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> AC, are you going to do the install? Or do you have a plumber lined up?


 
I plan to attack it myself with the help of a buddy who does commercial boiler installs.  The plan is to plug and play the supply/return lines into the current setup.  It shouldn't be TOO tough. I'll snap some pics of the current setup tonight.

ac


----------



## maple1

mark123 said:


> My smoke pipe came from a local sheetmetal shop which makes it, there seams are crimped and leak a tiny bit of smoke, I would get factory made pipe next time with welded seams.


 
Do you know what guage the pipe is from the sheetmetal shop? And is that different than the factory welded pipe you would get? I'm just using off the shelf stuff here for now to get me going (don't need much new to hook into existing) - but thinking maybe something more robust for later.


----------



## avc8130

As promised, here are pics of the current oil guzzler:

http://s878.photobucket.com/albums/ab349/avc8130/Boiler/

Hopefully the WG comes in Monday and I will have pics of that soon!

ac


----------



## avc8130

It's ARRIVED!


----------



## infinitymike

YEAH BABY Thats what I'm talking about!  CONGRATULATIONS!

I see you got it up on a trailer? I guess to get it around the basement entrance?
I'm real excited for you, I can't wait to see it burning.

Oh by the way, I lit my first fire of the season in the Gun this afternoon.
I shot 3 videos showing the different stages of it reaching temp and the gasification.
But I blew  what should have been the 4th video of it shut off for 3 hours and the relighting.
I let it sit for 3 hours and then turned on a heat zone but got distracted and by the time I went outside it was allready on and burning.
Don't worry I'll  get it


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> YEAH BABY Thats what I'm talking about! CONGRATULATIONS!
> 
> I see you got it up on a trailer? I guess to get it around the basement entrance?
> I'm real excited for you, I can't wait to see it burning.
> 
> Oh by the way, I lit my first fire of the season in the Gun this afternoon.
> I shot 3 videos showing the different stages of it reaching temp and the gasification.
> But I blew what should have been the 4th video of it shut off for 3 hours and the relighting.
> I let it sit for 3 hours and then turned on a heat zone but got distracted and by the time I went outside it was allready on and burning.
> Don't worry I'll get it


 
I had to pick it up somehow!  I had it shipped to a buddy's commercial address to save a few bucks on shipping and so I didn't have to take a day off work to wait for the delivery.  

I used the skid steer to pull it off the trailer and put it in the garage to open it all up and take inventory.  

Keep the videos coming!  I need all the help I can get!

ac


----------



## muncybob

Congrats!! Now the fun and adventure really begins.


----------



## avc8130

I need to find a source for SS chimney connector.  Any suggestions?

ac


----------



## avc8130

Plumbing question:

As I layout the plan and make a shopping list I realized I need to include a provision for a future project: heat to my workshop.

The workshop is ~1500 well-insulated square feet.  It is ~80' away from the house and ~5' higher in elevation.

How do I prep for this now as I plumb in the Wood Gun to REPLACE my oil boiler?  Do I just leave a T off my supply and returns to add a properly sized pump and zone valve later?

ac


----------



## mark123

avc8130 said:


> I went to Chambersburg, PA and visited AHS last week before putting a deposit down. The lower and rear door were both sealed with fiberglass rope.
> 
> That is disappointing to hear about the oil plug. What is "chugging"? Do you have any pictures of your modification?
> 
> I'm working on plans to make a smoke hood. I figure 24" wide and 8" deep. Does that sound about right? Any chance you could take some dimensions for me?
> 
> Are you using the DHW coil for that? I wonder how that would work with my indirect. I could superheat the indirect up to max aquastat setting (150?) and then run a mixing valve back down to 120 at the top.
> 
> That is quite scary about the chimney pipe. Where is a good source for SS pipe to use?
> 
> Thanks for the help!
> 
> here are some pictures of the oil burner blocking plate and smoke hood I made, it is just a bit wider than the door and 4" deep.


----------



## BoilerMan

I like how you have AHS' tech support's number right there!  LOL

TS


----------



## infinitymike

I bought my pipe from a local supplier, but maybe this can help ya.
http://www.selkirkcorp.com/products/venting.aspx


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> I bought my pipe from a local supplier, but maybe this can help ya.
> http://www.selkirkcorp.com/products/venting.aspx


 
I think I am going to order pipe from here:
http://www.chimneylinerdepot.com/store/clbrd/1049/category/6-inch-Rigid-Pipe---316L.html

Clean-out T to make my 90 to the thimble: 
http://www.chimneylinerdepot.com/store/1059/category/Rigid-Tees-316L.html

This product to seal the joints:
http://www.chimneylinerdepot.com/store/1965/product/HomeSaver-Flue-Goo;-Black-12-Gal..html

I'm not sure why, but Wood Gun wants clean out tees instead of elbows.  Does that make sense?

ac


----------



## infinitymike

My suggestion would be to get stainless steel double wall pipe. Especially if the clearances to any combustibles is tight.
It is more expensive but I believe its worth it. 

As far as the clean out tees go, I think they want one just above the fly ash collector to help trap any ash that may get past it. The ash will  hit the tee and fall back into the collector.

I didn't do that. I have a very short run.
I went straight up with a 48" double wall telescoping piece off the collector up to the ceiling thimble where it connects to two 36" ss double wall pieces and then the cap.

The roof is low and I can jump up there and pop off the cap and first section to clean that. then I can pop off the telescoping piece and clean that out.
The last  piece that is permanently attached to the thimble and roof flange is now easy to clean as well.

I didn't use any caulking because the double wall has a twist lock connection.
Sometimes  a whisper of smoke may leak out of the connection between the telescoping pipe and the piece in the thimble.
But it really doesn't matter to me since I am outside in the garage.
And believe me the tiny amount that may leak out every now and then is nothing to the amount that will pour out of the firebox door every time you open it


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> My suggestion would be to get stainless steel double wall pipe. Especially if the clearances to any combustibles is tight.
> It is more expensive but I believe its worth it.
> 
> As far as the clean out tees go, I think they want one just above the fly ash collector to help trap any ash that may get past it. The ash will hit the tee and fall back into the collector.
> 
> I didn't do that. I have a very short run.
> I went straight up with a 48" double wall telescoping piece off the collector up to the ceiling thimble where it connects to two 36" ss double wall pieces and then the cap.
> 
> The roof is low and I can jump up there and pop off the cap and first section to clean that. then I can pop off the telescoping piece and clean that out.
> The last piece that is permanently attached to the thimble and roof flange is now easy to clean as well.
> 
> I didn't use any caulking because the double wall has a twist lock connection.
> Sometimes a whisper of smoke may leak out of the connection between the telescoping pipe and the piece in the thimble.
> But it really doesn't matter to me since I am outside in the garage.
> And believe me the tiny amount that may leak out every now and then is nothing to the amount that will pour out of the firebox door every time you open it


 





That is my current setup.  All single wall.  I don't really have clearance issues with combustibles.  

The manual doesn't mention using a clean out, UNLESS you have 90 degree turns.  As you can see in the picture, I will have to make one into the thimble and run a short horizontal pipe.

I know, I know: SMOKE HOOD.

Any chance you could do me a favor and take some quick measurements of the AHS one?  I have a buddy that works in a sheet metal shop and he said he'd help me make my own for a case of beer.

ac


----------



## infinitymike

Are you teeing the flue into the existing flue for the oil?


----------



## infinitymike

Its 9" deep by 24" wide and 9" tall. It has a 1/12th hp blower with 485cfm with a 5" exhaust port


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> Are you teeing the flue into the existing flue for the oil?


 
Negative.  Oil boiler goes "bye bye".

ac


----------



## infinitymike

avc8130 said:


> Negative. Oil boiler goes "bye bye".
> 
> ac


 
Oh yeah I forgot you got the oil option.


----------



## infinitymike

Here is my first ever you tube video.


I shot it with my iphone so sorry for the skinny screen, maybe I need to hold the phone sideways.
Any way it shows me lighting the unit for the first time this season.

I have another one that I am downloading to you tube right know.


----------



## velvetfoot

Fantastic video!  A video is worth a million words!


----------



## avc8130

LOVE the video!  You are making me want to get to work!

I plan to move the WG into rough position this weekend.  Hopefully I can get started early next week installing the electric hot water heater, ripping out the oil boiler and placing the WG into final position to make the shopping list.

KEEP THE VIDEOS COMING

ac


----------



## avc8130

I need to work out my chimney a bit.

Due to clearance to the floor joists, I need insulated pipe.  The E180 needs 6" from the cyclone to the masonry flue.  It looks like my oil boiler uses a 7" flue.  Plan:

6" Insulated up from cyclone.
6" Cleanout Tee (acts as elbow)
6" Insulated towards thimble in masonry chimney
6" to 7" increaser

Sound about right?

I've never worked with insulated pipe before, am I able to cut my own lengths as needed like I can with black stove pipe by cutting the female end?

ac


----------



## infinitymike

avc8130 said:


> I need to work out my chimney a bit.
> 
> Due to clearance to the floor joists, I need insulated pipe.  The E180 needs 6" from the cyclone to the masonry flue.  It looks like my oil boiler uses a 7" flue.  Plan:
> 
> 6" Insulated up from cyclone.
> 6" Cleanout Tee (acts as elbow)
> 6" Insulated towards thimble in masonry chimney
> 6" to 7" increaser
> 
> Sound about right?
> 
> I've never worked with insulated pipe before, am I able to cut my own lengths as needed like I can with black stove pipe by cutting the female end?
> 
> ac




I don't think you can cut it. Based on what I bought, which was double wall insulated, it has a twist lock connection.


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> I don't think you can cut it. Based on what I bought, which was double wall insulated, it has a twist lock connection.


 
Hmm.  That might make it fun to get proper height/distance in my case.

ac


----------



## avc8130

Mike,

I see video 2 is up.  I'm LOVING it.  Thank you so much for the videos!

I hear you screaming about the smoke hood.  I'm working on mine.  I have ordered the same fan AHS uses.  Dayton states right on their specs it is only rated for 104F.  I guess time will tell.  I plan to wire it into the purge timer.  I figure that way if the purge timer is on to reload, the smoke hood will be also.  There also won't be 2 switches to fumble with and the fan will shut off when the purge timer does so no forgetting to turn it off.

How come you aren't using your smoke hood in the videos?  It doesn't look like you have it plumbed yet?

ac

PS: I see an unused DHW coil too


----------



## infinitymike

avc8130 said:


> Hmm. That might make it fun to get proper height/distance in my case.
> 
> ac


 
They make an adjustable/telescoping section.


----------



## infinitymike

Heres another video shot about an hour after the first one.
Again please have a little grace considering this the second video I evr made.

Oh and although I am saying get the smoke hood, get the smoke hood, I have NOT HOOKED mine up yet!


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> They make an adjustable/telescoping section.


 
That does NOT sound cheap!  LOL  I'm having trouble finding it.

I think I might try this fan for my smoke hood.  
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/DAYTON-High-Temperature-Blower-1TDV4?Pid=search

Rated to 450F.  The 104F rating of the AHS fan has me wondering how reliable it will be.  The high temp model is 310 cfm vs the normal model at 485 cfm.

ac


----------



## infinitymike

avc8130 said:


> That does NOT sound cheap!  LOL  I'm having trouble finding it.
> 
> I think I might try this fan for my smoke hood.
> http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/DAYTON-High-Temperature-Blower-1TDV4?Pid=search
> 
> Rated to 450F.  The 104F rating of the AHS fan has me wondering how reliable it will be.  The high temp model is 310 cfm vs the normal model at 485 cfm.
> 
> ac



I'm confused, it looks the model you are choosing is only rated to 104*f at 310 CMF
I'm not sure what the AHS model is rated for but quite honestly by the time you buy a motor and have someone fab a hood your really not saving a whole lot. I say buy the AHS model and it will be design properly and bolt right on in less then a minute. 

How'd ya like the second video?! I make myself laugh. What a cornball.


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> I'm confused, it looks the model you are choosing is only rated to 104*f at 310 CMF
> I'm not sure what the AHS model is rated for but quite honestly by the time you buy a motor and have someone fab a hood your really not saving a whole lot. I say buy the AHS model and it will be design properly and bolt right on in less then a minute.
> 
> How'd ya like the second video?! I make myself laugh. What a cornball.


 
Mike,

The model I am considering is 450*F and 310 CFM. 

From researching on Hearth (https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/my-smoke-hood.59029/#post-928765), the model that AHS supplies with their hood is 104*F and 485 CFM. 

As I have said my buddy works in a sheet metal shop.  He offered to fab me a hood for a case of beer if I bring him the blower I want.  Since the whole objective of installing a wood boiler is to save money, saving $150 on the smoke hood is like 45 gallons oil cost saved!

I LOVE the videos.  Keep them up!

ac


----------



## muncybob

Or you could do like I did and use single wall that is wrapped in high temp insulation. Burning wood, even at full burn the insulation is only slightly warm to the touch. I then wrapped the insulation in foil to contain any fibers.


----------



## maple1

Do you guys have stack temp guages? What do you see for stack temps?


----------



## avc8130

maple1 said:


> Do you guys have stack temp guages? What do you see for stack temps?


 
I see a thermometer in Mike's pics...


----------



## muncybob

maple1 said:


> Do you guys have stack temp guages? What do you see for stack temps?


 Usually around 350-400 when burning wood, oil is way higher.


----------



## avc8130

muncybob said:


> Usually around 350-400 when burning wood, oil is way higher.


 

I cant' say that surprises me, although it does mean the oil isn't transfering heat nearly as well to the water as the wood.  It is just a backup, so that is "ok" to me.

Are you running the draft fan with the oil?

ac


----------



## maple1

Is that F or C? Assuming F? So far with mine, I'm seeing not much more than about 150 C.


----------



## muncybob

av, no...my fine is defeated in oil mode...draft a way too high. For the price of the oil add on I wish it was more efficient but as you aid it's only a back up. We normally only burn about 15-20 gallons a year max.

maple, yes that's F.  I think our temps are more often than not in the 350F area with on occassion below that and at times will hit 400or so (this is normally on a completely cold start).


----------



## avc8130

muncybob said:


> av, no...my fine is defeated in oil mode...draft a way too high. For the price of the oil add on I wish it was more efficient but as you aid it's only a back up. We normally only burn about 15-20 gallons a year max.
> 
> maple, yes that's F. I think our temps are more often than not in the 350F area with on occassion below that and at times will hit 400or so (this is normally on a completely cold start).


 
I'm amazed that you have crazy draft with the insane flue passage of the Woodgun.  What type of chimney are you feeding?

I just got a call from my boiler buddy, we are picking up the 50 gallon electric hot water heater tomorrow.  Saturday should be: install electric hot water heater, remove old oil boiler, place Wood Gun and make the shopping list.  I'm STOKED!

ac


----------



## infinitymike

I have a thermometer in the flue about 24" above the fly ash collector.

I've never seen it above 400* F usually floats between 350*-400*


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> I have a thermometer in the flue about 24" above the fly ash collector.
> 
> I've never seen it above 400* F usually floats between 350*-400*


 
Didn't you promise us a 3rd video?


----------



## infinitymike

avc8130 said:


> I just got a call from my boiler buddy, we are picking up the 50 gallon electric hot water heater tomorrow. Saturday should be: install electric hot water heater, remove old oil boiler, place Wood Gun and make the shopping list. I'm STOKED!
> 
> ac


 
I hope you have something else to stoke.  
Its not super cold out but temps are  dropping!


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> I hope you have something else to stoke.
> Its not super cold out but temps are dropping!


 
I'll fire up the wood stove and if really necessary I'll fire up the insert too.  

The "plan" is to plumb in the WG after work a few nights next week.

ac


----------



## infinitymike

avc8130 said:


> Didn't you promise us a 3rd video?


 
I did, I did,  but it ain't easy catching it relight.
Just tonight I lit a fire at 6pm, I came home at 9:30 and was  in my home office (where I can see the boiler through the window and even hear it kick on) when I heard it kick on, I didn't go running out there, but by the time I did get out there it was all ready relit.

Monday night I tried to force it and stood there with the video running for a few minutes only to realize it wasn't hot enough to relight. Actually that might be a good one to show that the fire does actually shut off. So much so, that it is dead and won't relight. But I erased it.

I will get it out there.


----------



## infinitymike

avc8130 said:


> I'll fire up the wood stove and if really necessary I'll fire up the insert too.
> 
> The "plan" is to plumb in the WG after work a few nights next week.
> 
> ac


 

Aaahhh a man with a plan and a back up. Nice very nice. 

Take lots of progress pics.


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> I did, I did, but it ain't easy catching it relight.
> Just tonight I lit a fire at 6pm, I came home at 9:30 and was in my home office (where I can see the boiler through the window and even hear it kick on) when I heard it kick on, I didn't go running out there, but by the time I did get out there it was all ready relit.
> 
> Monday night I tried to force it and stood there with the video running for a few minutes only to realize it wasn't hot enough to relight. Actually that might be a good one to show that the fire does actually shut off. So much so, that it is dead and won't relight. But I erased it.
> 
> I will get it out there.


 
Did you ever get the cycle timer?  

I plan to wire one in shortly after getting the install "done".  I just don't want to mess around with any of the factory stuff until I know she functions.

ac


----------



## infinitymike

avc8130 said:


> Did you ever get the cycle timer?
> 
> I plan to wire one in shortly after getting the install "done". I just don't want to mess around with any of the factory stuff until I know she functions.
> 
> ac


 
No I did not buy it with the unit. How ever I have the schematic and parts required to install one on my own which I may do this winter.


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> No I did not buy it with the unit. How ever I have the schematic and parts required to install one on my own which I may do this winter.


 
Wouldn't it make more sense to get it in for fall when the heat demand is low?  

I checked out the schematics, looks like tapping 3 or 4 wires.  Should be very simple, maybe an hour to get it all buttoned up and pretty.  

Certainly easier than plumbing in your DHW coil or running vent line for that smoke hood!

ac


----------



## infinitymike

avc8130 said:


> Wouldn't it make more sense to get it in for fall when the heat demand is low?  Thats kinda what I meant.  In fact the fire was "off" from 10pm until 5am when the t-stats started calling and it tried to relight but couldn't because everything was to cold and the low water temp shut off eventually kicked in and I heard the oil kick on so I had to go out and put the torch on it for a few seconds to help it along.
> 
> I checked out the schematics, looks like tapping 3 or 4 wires. Should be very simple, maybe an hour to get it all buttoned up and pretty.
> 
> Certainly easier than plumbing in your DHW coil or running vent line for that smoke hood!
> Gee thanks for reminding me that I'm not finished yet now I'm depressed.
> 
> 
> 
> ac


----------



## muncybob

I'm surprised on the draft too although I do have a 30+ foot chimney and we live in a very windy area. Draft is so strong that I have the fresh air intake damped to about 90%. Mainly did this to avoid the "chugging" but seems to also go thru less wood this way. Hope the install goes well, I plan to connect the smoke hood exhaust ducting this weekend(in between splitting another cord, loading up the woodshed, cutting the grass, etc.....shees!). Weekends just are not long enough.


----------



## avc8130

Mike,

What temp do you have the low water temp aquastat set to? 

I have been trying to wrap my head around the wiring/controls for the WG.

I understand how the aquastat will control the draft fan and the intake flap.  What I don't understand is how the circulator pump will still get it's signal.

Right now on my oil boiler, when the zone calls for heat it opens the zone valve and the signal goes to the boiler controller.  The boiler controller decides when the circulator pump will come on. 

How does that work with the WG?

ac


----------



## infinitymike

muncybob said:


> I plan to connect the smoke hood exhaust ducting this weekend(in between splitting another cord, loading up the woodshed, cutting the grass, etc.....shees!). Weekends just are not long enough.



I hear that. Man there is just not enough time. Where does it all go?


----------



## infinitymike

avc8130 said:


> Mike,
> 
> What temp do you have the low water temp aquastat set to?
> 
> I have been trying to wrap my head around the wiring/controls for the WG.
> 
> I understand how the aquastat will control the draft fan and the intake flap.  What I don't understand is how the circulator pump will still get it's signal.
> 
> Right now on my oil boiler, when the zone calls for heat it opens the zone valve and the signal goes to the boiler controller.  The boiler controller decides when the circulator pump will come on.
> 
> How does that work with the WG?
> 
> ac



I have to check but I think the low water temp aqua stat is set for 150*. 
As far as the wiring goes I really don't know it went together. I had a pro do that.  
I'll can basic wiring but this was a little above my pay scale.


----------



## infinitymike

AC 

Mine my also be a little different since I have my oil set up as a back up so I have relays that communicate with each other and will shut off either unit base on the low water temp stat setting.


----------



## infinitymike

Sorry for all the typos. I'm doing this on my iPhone. Man I need to get help.


----------



## mark123

You don't need to touch the purge timer if the boiler is in normal operational mode when reloading, but I guess you could turn it anyway just to run the smoke hood.

I hear you screaming about the smoke hood. I'm working on mine. I have ordered the same fan AHS uses. Dayton states right on their specs it is only rated for 104F. I guess time will tell. I plan to wire it into the purge timer. I figure that way if the purge timer is on to reload, the smoke hood will be also. There also won't be 2 switches to fumble with and the fan will shut off when the purge timer does so no forgetting to turn it off.

How come you aren't using your smoke hood in the videos? It doesn't look like you have it plumbed yet?

ac

PS: I see an unused DHW coil too [/quote]


----------



## infinitymike

mark123 said:


> You don't need to touch the purge timer if the boiler is in normal operational mode when reloading, but I guess you could turn it anyway just to run the smoke hood.
> 
> I hear you screaming about the smoke hood. I'm working on mine. I have ordered the same fan AHS uses. Dayton states right on their specs it is only rated for 104F. I guess time will tell. I plan to wire it into the purge timer. I figure that way if the purge timer is on to reload, the smoke hood will be also. There also won't be 2 switches to fumble with and the fan will shut off when the purge timer does so no forgetting to turn it off.
> 
> How come you aren't using your smoke hood in the videos? It doesn't look like you have it plumbed yet?
> 
> ac
> 
> PS: I see an unused DHW coil too


[/quote]


i havent hooked the vent pipe up yet.

I almost never use the purge timer to reload. I usually check if I need to reload based on time from last reload and when the unit is on and burning. 
I just shot 2 more videos and the first one I actually use the purge timer to force it to relight

I know I bought it with the coil and never hooked it up. I ended up getting 2 indirect water tanks. (which aren't hooked up either)
I'm not sure if I will ever hook up the coil since I'll be running the tanks.


----------



## infinitymike

Here is part 3


----------



## infinitymike

Part 4


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> I have to check but I think the low water temp aqua stat is set for 150*.
> As far as the wiring goes I really don't know it went together. I had a pro do that.
> I'll can basic wiring but this was a little above my pay scale.


 
150F sounds about right.  There will either be a fire or their won't and we don't want the draft fan blowing the whole boiler cold.

I plan to ask the boiler tech about the wiring today.  If we can't figure it out, I'll call Darren at AHS Monday.  

I just looked out the window: FROST.  Perfect day to rip out the oil boiler and go central heat-less!

ac


----------



## muncybob

1st time I've had a chance to watch your videos(can't do that at work). I'll vouch for you that this is indeed the way the unit runs(re-ignite, etc) as long as the boiler has not been "off" too long. How long is too long? I think that depends on the bed of coals you have, refractory temp, etc. but I know that just as the vid shows mine has re-ignited after being off(I'll refrain from saying idle) for up to 3.5 hours.
I usually don't wait for it to restart though as I have a map gas torch nearby and a quick shot to the coals gets things going pronto. So far this year we have started the boiler in the morning only to take the chill off, so the boiler has been off since mid morning the day before and I know this is probably way too long to hope it restarts on it's own. A few splits thrown in and about 10 seconds with the torch and away it goes.


----------



## avc8130

muncybob said:


> 1st time I've had a chance to watch your videos(can't do that at work). I'll vouch for you that this is indeed the way the unit runs(re-ignite, etc) as long as the boiler has not been "off" too long. How long is too long? I think that depends on the bed of coals you have, refractory temp, etc. but I know that just as the vid shows mine has re-ignited after being off(I'll refrain from saying idle) for up to 3.5 hours.
> I usually don't wait for it to restart though as I have a map gas torch nearby and a quick shot to the coals gets things going pronto. So far this year we have started the boiler in the morning only to take the chill off, so the boiler has been off since mid morning the day before and I know this is probably way too long to hope it restarts on it's own. A few splits thrown in and about 10 seconds with the torch and away it goes.


 
Do you have the cycle timer?  I already have one on order and plan to wire it in once the system is up and running on the factory AHS configuration.

ac


----------



## muncybob

Yes, we have the cycle timer. This works great for keeping the coals hot when I plan to leave the boiler on and house temps don't call for heat very often. Getting the timer set at the right times was a bit of trial and error but now it's set to turn on for 1 period every 60 minutes.

Just finished another truckload of wood into the shed...about time I got started on the smoke hood ducting.


----------



## Gasifier

It is about time I got started on putting my wood under the covered porch for the winter. My gun is running nicely. It is time for a cleaning of the tubes and the ash pan. The kids all took a nice hot Jet Tub bath the other night after a cold and rainy soccer game. A lot of hot water. Heated with the gun. Priceless.


----------



## avc8130

Today was a big day! 

First we plumbed in the new electric water heater:












Then we moved the Wood Gun!

First we got it on the Skid Steer:









Then across the yard:





Through the TIGHT door:





Across basement A:





Up the STEP:









I took my first showered warmed by clean (lol) electric.  The plan is to make a shopping list for plumbing in the WG and start attacking it next week.

ac


----------



## Gasifier

Nice work ac! That reminds of how glad I am that my install is done. Nice work and good luck. Keep us posted. And keep the pics coming.


----------



## maple1

Looks like you got a little ding in it from the strap? I dinged my water heater getting it on a stand.


----------



## avc8130

maple1 said:


> Looks like you got a little ding in it from the strap? I dinged my water heater getting it on a stand.


 
Yeah, we were concerned about going across the uneven ground in the yard and sure enough, the skid steer went into a hole and the strap tightened.  I pulled the panel and straightened it the best I could (more recent than the photo) but once metal is bent it is also stretched so she won't be perfect.  I can't fret it.  It's a minor battle scar.  I saved enough by moving it myself that I am ok with it.

ac


----------



## JP11

avc8130 said:


> Yeah, we were concerned about going across the uneven ground in the yard and sure enough, the skid steer went into a hole and the strap tightened. I pulled the panel and straightened it the best I could (more recent than the photo) but once metal is bent it is also stretched so she won't be perfect. I can't fret it. It's a minor battle scar. I saved enough by moving it myself that I am ok with it.
> 
> ac


Don't feel like the Lone Ranger.  Mine had a dimple in the side from shipping.  It still saves money like a banshee.

JP


----------



## avc8130

JP11 said:


> Don't feel like the Lone Ranger. Mine had a dimple in the side from shipping. It still saves money like a banshee.
> 
> JP


 
I'm not losing sleep over it.  I went over the boiler install with my installer and there are a few out-lying decisions to be made:

1. How the heck do we connect this to the masonry chimney?  My masonry thimble is 7", so I will need a 6-7 adapter.  I need to know how my horizontal run will work out to place the boiler and really get to work.  My ceiling is within 12" of the top of the stove pipe.  So I need something to reduce clearances.  Double wall, screw on shield?  Wood Gun says I need stainless.  I just can't seem to find the perfect solution.

2. Controls.  The Wood Gun seems to be able to "run itself" and nothing more.  We will need to add a relay to activate the circulator pump when there is a call for heat.

3. Workshop zone.  I need to leave a provision to add my zone for my out-building.  We will probably just leave a full size port in the manifold on both supply and return.  This should let us figure out the specifics later.

ac


----------



## Gasifier

avc8130 said:


> I'm not losing sleep over it.
> 
> I put a small dent in mine when we moved it into place. It added a little character to the boiler, it in my opinion.
> 
> I went over the boiler install with my installer and there are a few out-lying decisions to be made:
> 
> 1. How the heck do we connect this to the masonry chimney? My masonry thimble is 7", so I will need a 6-7 adapter. I need to know how my horizontal run will work out to place the boiler and really get to work. My ceiling is within 12" of the top of the stove pipe. So I need something to reduce clearances. Double wall, screw on shield? Wood Gun says I need stainless. I just can't seem to find the perfect solution.
> In my basement I first installed the pipe coming out of the Ash cyclone the way AHS said to do it. That was a mistake. I ran the standard stove pipe up vertical, then horizontal and over to my double wall insulated pipe that went through the wall thimble. Too much heat loss that resulted in too low of stack temps at the top of the 27 feet of chimney. That too low of stack temp resulted in creosote forming. Too much flat run that resulted in ash and creosote forming in those pipe sections. I changed this as soon as I could afford it. Late in the season last Feb./March. I instead continued the double wall insulated pipe down at an angle using two 30Deg. bends and some straight pipe to get me to within about 13 inches of the top of the ash cyclone.
> This resulted in much higher stack temperatures further up the chimney and no more creosote problems. As well as any ash slides back down the pipe and into the ash collector. So now when I take the pipe apart inside the house there is nothing in it. I will take some pictures tonight of the new and post them with some pictures of the old to show you what I mean. I would try not to be putting your pipe flat. You can hold your hand within an inch of the double wall insulated pipe and leave it there forever. No worries. You can not with the regular stove pipe. This would also reduce the amount of pipe that is close to your ceiling. The supplier you buy the insulated pipe from should be able to hook you up with the right adaptors. Do as much as you can in double wall, insulted. S.S. You will not regret it. I could have saved some money if I had went with it the first time. I was trying to save some money by going the route that AHS said to go.  That did not work.
> 
> 
> 2. Controls. The Wood Gun seems to be able to "run itself" and nothing more. We will need to add a relay to activate the circulator pump when there is a call for heat.
> 
> Mine is set up so that whenever the boiler is above 175 the first circ pump kicks on to send the hot water to my buffer tank. Then whenever any zone calls for heat another circ pump kicks on to draw water out of the top of the tank and/or the boiler from a T that is just before the tank on the line that feeds into the tank.
> 
> 
> 
> 3. Workshop zone. I need to leave a provision to add my zone for my out-building. We will probably just leave a full size port in the manifold on both supply and return. This should let us figure out the specifics later.
> 
> Sounds like you have that all set.
> 
> ac


----------



## avc8130

_In my basement I first installed the pipe coming out of the Ash cyclone the way AHS said to do it. That was a mistake. I ran the standard stove pipe up vertical, then horizontal and over to my double wall insulated pipe that went through the wall thimble. Too much heat loss that resulted in too low of stack temps at the top of the 27 feet of chimney. That too low of stack temp resulted in creosote forming. Too much flat run that resulted in ash and creosote forming in those pipe sections. I changed this as soon as I could afford it. Late in the season last Feb./March. I instead continued the double wall insulated pipe down at an angle using two 30Deg. bends and some straight pipe to get me to within about 13 inches of the top of the ash cyclone._
_This resulted in much higher stack temperatures further up the chimney and no more creosote problems. As well as any ash slides back down the pipe and into the ash collector. So now when I take the pipe apart inside the house there is nothing in it. I will take some pictures tonight of the new and post them with some pictures of the old to show you what I mean. I would try not to be putting your pipe flat. You can hold your hand within an inch of the double wall insulated pipe and leave it there forever. No worries. You can not with the regular stove pipe. This would also reduce the amount of pipe that is close to your ceiling. The supplier you buy the insulated pipe from should be able to hook you up with the right adaptors. Do as much as you can in double wall, insulted. S.S. You will not regret it. I could have saved some money if I had went with it the first time. I was trying to save some money by going the route that AHS said to go. That did not work.  _

Yes, PLEASE snap some pics.  Trust me, I'd rather do it right, once!


What I can't find is a supplier for the pipe.  From what I hear, you can't cut length of 2-wall like you can single.  With that, how do you work with it for a stove connection?  I need to be able to choose my own height and my own run to the thimble.  No doubt that some angles will roll the ash back down better and keep the draft stronger.

ac


----------



## mikefrommaine

A Telescoping section of pipe will allow you to make the connection without cutting the pipe.

Here's an example

http://www.ventingpipe.com/duravent-8647-6-double-wall-telescoping-length-40-68/p1761548


----------



## avc8130

mikefrommaine said:


> A Telescoping section of pipe will allow you to make the connection without cutting the pipe.
> 
> Here's an example
> 
> http://www.ventingpipe.com/duravent-8647-6-double-wall-telescoping-length-40-68/p1761548


 
I've found that, but it isn't stainless :-(.

ac


----------



## Gasifier

mikefrommaine said:


> A Telescoping section of pipe will allow you to make the connection without cutting the pipe.
> 
> Here's an example
> 
> http://www.ventingpipe.com/duravent-8647-6-double-wall-telescoping-length-40-68/p1761548


 
I have never used this telescoping pipe. I went as far as I could and then used the adapter to go from insulated double wall to single wall and ended up with an adjustable 90 degree elbo attached to the adapter and right to the top of the ash cyclone. It was a bit of a pain in the a.., but it worked. I don't know if they have telescoping pipe in the brand that I have or not. I will have to look into that. So the telescoping just goes straight in and out. Right? There is no flexing it side to side or curving. Right?


----------



## avc8130

Gasifier said:


> I have never used this telescoping pipe. I went as far as I could and then used the adapter to go from insulated double wall to single wall and ended up with an adjustable 90 degree elbo attached to the adapter and right to the top of the ash cyclone. It was a bit of a pain in the a.., but it worked. I don't know if they have telescoping pipe in the brand that I have or not. I will have to look into that. So the telescoping just goes straight in and out. Right? There is no flexing it side to side or curving. Right?


 
Yeah, straight in/out is my understanding. 

This stuff might work:

http://www.ventingpipe.com/index.cf...wall&page=search:browse&F3363=stainless steel

ac


----------



## Gasifier

I see this. I do not see how it is adjustable. ? Anyone ever use on of these from metalbest?


http://www.ventingpipe.com/metalbes...justable-class-a-chimney-pipe-length/p1170422


----------



## mikefrommaine

If you have twelve inches of clearance I'd just shield the joists with sheetmetal and1" spacers and use all single wall. It'll be cheaper and easier.


----------



## avc8130

mikefrommaine said:


> If you have twelve inches of clearance I'd just shield the joists with sheetmetal and1" spacers and use all single wall. It'll be cheaper and easier.


 
I thought about just using a stove pipe shield:

http://woodheatstoves.com/stove-pipe-shield-35-p-9387.html

ac


----------



## Gasifier

What is the chimney you are going into made up of avc? I am working on pic of that pipe I was telling you about. Should be up soon.


----------



## avc8130

Gasifier said:


> What is the chimney you are going into made up of avc? I am working on pic of that pipe I was telling you about. Should be up soon.


 
7" round masonry thimble from the current oil burner. That feeds into an 8x8 terracotta chimney.  Overall draft height ~20'.



ac


----------



## Gasifier

View attachment 77388


avc8130 said:


> Yes, PLEASE snap some pics. Trust me, I'd rather do it right, once!
> 
> 
> What I can't find is a supplier for the pipe. From what I hear, you can't cut length of 2-wall like you can single. With that, how do you work with it for a stove connection? I need to be able to choose my own height and my own run to the thimble. No doubt that some angles will roll the ash back down better and keep the draft stronger.
> 
> ac


 






Old set up above. Well I screwed up the pic of the new set up. But at least you can see the new pipe. Just gives you an idea of how I did it. Now, obviously that was where the Wood Gun was already piped up and completely installed, so I had to fit the pipe to what I had. Working good so far. I would like to get all the joints sealed completely. Like welded together. I do not know if they can weld that thin wall pipe with a mig or tig welder or not. Need to find out for the future. If you can, go with as few joints as possible. The fan on the gun creates pressure and will leak wherever it can. Good luck ac. And if you have any questions, ask. Lots of good guys on here.


----------



## 711mhw

I used a double wall stove pipe that  telescopes off the cyclone seperator. It is a pita to seal up against the pos. pressure draft created by that humongus fan & motor. This pipe was sourced off the internet & it has a thin SS inner pipe with a regular black pipe outer layer. I would not hesitate at all using a good heavy (single) wall black stove pipe to get to your masonry chimney, and as mikefrommaine mentioned, just do some heat shielding as needed. Tile backer also makes a good heat shield. Just pay attn. to sealing up all your joints with HT silicone during assembly. At your 7" thimble, I'd just "mud it in"  to the 6". 
 If you think about it, a regular wood stove is much harder, or hotter on a stove pipe than a modern "gasser" will be, maybe other than a little positive pressure, the operating temps. are prolly much lower than a stove and definetly not subjecting it to all that creosote.


----------



## avc8130

711mhw said:


> I used a double wall stove pipe that telescopes off the cyclone seperator. It is a pita to seal up against the pos. pressure draft created by that humongus fan & motor. This pipe was sourced off the internet & it has a thin SS inner pipe with a regular black pipe outer layer. I would not hesitate at all using a good heavy (single) wall black stove pipe to get to your masonry chimney, and as mikefrommaine mentioned, just do some heat shielding as needed. Tile backer also makes a good heat shield. Just pay attn. to sealing up all your joints with HT silicone during assembly. At your 7" thimble, I'd just "mud it in" to the 6".
> If you think about it, a regular wood stove is much harder, or hotter on a stove pipe than a modern "gasser" will be, maybe other than a little positive pressure, the operating temps. are prolly much lower than a stove and definetly not subjecting it to all that creosote.


 
I've been strongly considering just piping it in with black stove pipe.  It is SO cheap that it might just be easiest to get it done for now.

A 6=>7 adapter is cheap enough http://www.ventingpipe.com/duravent-1767-6-7-single-wall-stovepipe-increaser/p1761556 to not worry about mudding it in.

No concerns with drop in draft from the single wall?  What about using 2 45s to make the vertical to horizontal connection to keep "slope" so the ash flows down to the cyclone?

ac


----------



## mikefrommaine

Cut some pieces of 1/2" copper to one inch, screw a piece of sheetmetal to the joists through the copper spacers above the stove pipe. And you have magically reduced the required clearance of single wall stove pipe to 9"

Cheap simple effective and code approved.


----------



## Gasifier

avc8130 said:


> I've been strongly considering just piping it in with black stove pipe. It is SO cheap that it might just be easiest to get it done for now.
> 
> A 6=>7 adapter is cheap enough http://www.ventingpipe.com/duravent-1767-6-7-single-wall-stovepipe-increaser/p1761556 to not worry about mudding it in.
> 
> No concerns with drop in draft from the single wall? What about using 2 45s to make the vertical to horizontal connection to keep "slope" so the ash flows down to the cyclone?
> 
> ac


 
All I can tell you is I first went with what you see in the first picture. Galvanized single wall. That was a mistake.  I seam to like to learn the hard way sometimes.  All the high temp silicone at the joints eventually dried up and cracked and was a pain in the ass to try to keep it sealed. I had creosote building up becuase of my situation with my 27 foot chimney and needed higher stack temp all the way up. I then ended up switching to regular black single wall pipe because the galvanized did not hold up. Should have switched then to a sloping angle then, but didn't. Then went through almost the same problems. Clean, reseal. Clean, reseal. You are right, that pipe is much cheaper. Go with the black if you do either of them. But eventually I think you will end up going with the insulated s.s. I spent the extra money after and am glad I have it the way I do now. Have not had to clean it. Checked it, but nothing. Everything slides down into the ash cyclone.

Of course, your situation is different than mine. But I would go with a sloping pipe and try to have it so you can take it apart easily for clean out. Make sure you have working smoke detectors of both technologies for double safety.


----------



## avc8130

Gasifier said:


> All I can tell you is I first went with what you see in the first picture. Galvanized single wall. That was a mistake.  I seam to like to learn the hard way sometimes.  All the high temp silicone at the joints eventually dried up and cracked and was a pain in the ass to try to keep it sealed. I had creosote building up becuase of my situation with my 27 foot chimney and needed higher stack temp all the way up. I then ended up switching to regular black single wall pipe because the galvanized did not hold up. Should have switched then to a sloping angle then, but didn't. Then went through almost the same problems. Clean, reseal. Clean, reseal. You are right, that pipe is much cheaper. Go with the black if you do either of them. But eventually I think you will end up going with the insulated s.s. I spent the extra money after and am glad I have it the way I do not. Have not had to clean it. Checked it, but nothing. Everything slides down into the ash cyclone.
> 
> Of course, your situation is different than mine. But I would go with a sloping pipe and try to have it so you can take it apart easily for clean out. Make sure you have working smoke detectors of both technologies for double safety.


 
Trust me, I don't want to do it twice, that is why I am trying to research so much.  

How does 6" double-wall interface with 7" masonry chimney?

ac


----------



## maple1

mikefrommaine said:


> Cut some pieces of 1/2" copper to one inch, screw a piece of sheetmetal to the joists through the copper spacers above the stove pipe. And you have magically reduced the required clearance of single wall stove pipe to 9"
> 
> Cheap simple effective and code approved.


 
That's what the installers did on my original install 17 years ago.

BTW, what is the code clearance for single wall pipe without using a heat shield?


----------



## avc8130

maple1 said:


> That's what the installers did on my original install 17 years ago.
> 
> BTW, what is the code clearance for single wall pipe without using a heat shield?


 
18"


----------



## Gasifier

avc8130 said:


> Trust me, I don't want to do it twice, that is why I am trying to research so much.
> 
> How does 6" double-wall interface with 7" masonry chimney?
> 
> ac


 
I have never done it that way ac, so I can not tell you. But I am sure there is a way. Just talk to your supplier for the double wall about an adaptor. I am sure they have something. The less sealing you have to do with caulk the better. The higher you stack temps are the cleaner you chimney will be. The insulated pipe is safer from a clearance standpoint, a cleaner chimney(less chance of chimney fire), and less chance of a leak of smoke of any kind. I am much more relaxed now than I was with the old pipe. This is from my experience anyway. Good luck.


----------



## avc8130

Gasifier said:


> I have never done it that way ac, so I can not tell you. But I am sure there is a way. Just talk to your supplier for the double wall about an adaptor. I am sure they have something. The less sealing you have to do with caulk the better. The higher you stack temps are the cleaner you chimney will be. The insulated pipe is safer from a clearance standpoint, a cleaner chimney(less chance of chimney fire), and a leak of smoke of any kind. I am much more relaxed now than I was with the old pipe. This is from my experience anyway. Good luck.


 
I think I am going to take some measurements and head to the local hearth supply place and start talking.  I am the type of guy that can figure this stuff out, if I can go to the store and touch the parts and work them together.  Searching the internet is just confusing me.  

ac


----------



## maple1

Hmmm, I should go measure something. I'm not sure I've got quite that much on a new piece I put in, it'll be close to that though - I might have to make another shield.

I do have a store bought stove pipe shield kicking around though that screws onto the pipe - does that have the same affect on clearances as the copper/sheet metal does?


----------



## Gasifier

maple1 said:


> That's what the installers did on my original install 17 years ago.
> 
> BTW, what is the code clearance for single wall pipe without using a heat shield?


 
Was that with your benjamin maple? Do you think a better sealed pipe is a good idea with a pressurized exhaust like the wood gun has? That fan has a good amount of pressure. You would think everything would go straight up the chimney, but it does not. From what I have experienced, any slight pinhole or slot or gap and you end up with an exhaust leak into your boiler room. Not something I could accept being that is in my basement.


----------



## avc8130

maple1 said:


> Hmmm, I should go measure something. I'm not sure I've got quite that much on a new piece I put in, it'll be close to that though - I might have to make another shield.
> 
> I do have a store bought stove pipe shield kicking around though that screws onto the pipe - does that have the same affect on clearances as the copper/sheet metal does?


 
I believe those heat shields bring clearance down to 6".  I am not sure about sheetmetal on the ceiling.

http://www.efireplacestore.com/cpf-54120.html


----------



## 711mhw

avc8130 said:


> I've been strongly considering just piping it in with black stove pipe. It is SO cheap that it might just be easiest to get it done for now.
> 
> A 6=>7 adapter is cheap enough http://www.ventingpipe.com/duravent-1767-6-7-single-wall-stovepipe-increaser/p1761556 to not worry about mudding it in.
> 
> No concerns with drop in draft from the single wall? What about using 2 45s to make the vertical to horizontal connection to keep "slope" so the ash flows down to the cyclone?
> 
> ac


 
If I remember, they (AHS) suggests a certain height out of the cyclone before going horizontal. In my situation, I was able to go close to 6' vertical  out of the cyc. before I 45 into a class A that goes thru the framed wall. My horiz run is only about 5' and only gets cleaned once a year, and this is prolly not needed. In other words, I think that with the taller vertical "run" out of the cyc. the "heavies" drop back down and go round & round in it until it is light enough to blow out or fall back into the "dustpan". The ash left in the pipe is very fine soot, not really any ash at all.
For the first year of operation. I only stubbed the class A through the wall about 6". PERIOD! no vertical chimney, not even a rain cap, almost like a "wall cap" on a bath vent or range hood vent just without any cover, just a 6" SS class A pipe sticking thru the wall. This was cool with AHS, as I sought their approval first, but with the right wind conditions, the smoke would blow in our window that we like to crack for fresh air in the winter. Now I tee into a SS vertical to above the roof line, keeping the bottom of the tee open for constant "self cleaning" of the horizontal run.
So what I'm trying to say is get as much vertical out of the cyc. as you can, then tee (for cleaning) into your horiz. run to the chimney. If you do go with the heavy black pipe, it's cheap enough to tinker with if you have different results. Does the chim have a clean out door in the right spot? Your WG chimney cleaning is not anything near what you may have experienced cleaning a conventional wood stove! (Way, way less) That goofy cyclone thing really does it's job, just remember to check it every few days until you learn it's cleaning "cycle" for your wood and use. Maybe Mike will comment on the tall vertical with similar results? I'm guessing that he does not have any horizontal at all. Have fun, It's starting to get chilly!


----------



## maple1

Gasifier said:


> Was that with your benjamin maple? Do you think a better sealed pipe is a good idea with a pressurized exhaust like the wood gun has? That fan has a good amount of pressure. You would think everything would go straight up the chimney, but it does not. From what I have experienced, any slight pinhole or slot or gap and you end up with an exhaust leak into your boiler room. Not something I could accept being that is in my basement.


 
Yes it was. And yes a better sealed pipe is likely a good idea with a pressurized exhaust - I would think. I ran into a friend at the supplier a couple of weeks ago, who has a Wood Gun. I checked it out just after he got it maybe 4 years ago but haven't been back. I should pay a visit. I think he has made some mods - he was telling me about one that I wasn't fully understanding. It had to do with stopping moisture/condensation in the ash (in the ash pan?), and it involved a bucket under open pipe somewhere.

EDIT: Or maybe something like the open T that 711 just posted about while I was typing this.


----------



## avc8130

711mhw said:


> If I remember, they (AHS) suggests a certain height out of the cyclone before going horizontal. In my situation, I was able to go close to 6' vertical out of the cyc. before I 45 into a class A that goes thru the framed wall. My horiz run is only about 5' and only gets cleaned once a year, and this is prolly not needed. In other words, I think that with the taller vertical "run" out of the cyc. the "heavies" drop back down and go round & round in it until it is light enough to blow out or fall back into the "dustpan". The ash left in the pipe is very fine soot, not really any ash at all.
> So what I'm trying to say is get as much vertical out of the cyc. as you can, then tee (for cleaning) into your horiz. run to the chimney. If you do go with the heavy black pipe, it's cheap enough to tinker with if you have different results. Does the chim have a clean out door in the right spot? Your WG chimney cleaning is not anything near what you may have experienced cleaning a conventional wood stove! (Way, way less) That goofy cyclone thing really does it's job, just remember to check it every few days until you learn it's cleaning "cycle" for your wood and use. Maybe Mike will comment on the tall vertical with similar results? I'm guessing that he does not have any horizontal at all. Have fun, It's starting to get chilly!


 


I'm not sure a clean out tee would be useful in my case.  My chimney hookup will be perpendicular to the unit itself.  The clean out would essentially be right into the unit itself.  My chimney does have a clean out door at the bottom of the flue.  

Chilly?  It was 69F here today!

ac


----------



## avc8130

I took some measurements.  My masonry thimble is ~48" above the height of my cyclone.   I am able to position the Wood Gun to adjust the horizontal run, but ~24" is the range I want to be in.

Since the piping is 6", I think the elbow will be 6x6, correct?  In other words, I need 42" of height and could use an 18" horizontal run?  

ac


----------



## avc8130

Gasifier said:


> I have never done it that way ac, so I can not tell you. But I am sure there is a way. Just talk to your supplier for the double wall about an adaptor. I am sure they have something. The less sealing you have to do with caulk the better. The higher you stack temps are the cleaner you chimney will be. The insulated pipe is safer from a clearance standpoint, a cleaner chimney(less chance of chimney fire), and less chance of a leak of smoke of any kind. I am much more relaxed now than I was with the old pipe. This is from my experience anyway. Good luck.


 
Do you happen to know the brand pipe you used?

ac


----------



## Gasifier

avc8130 said:


> Do you happen to know the brand pipe you used?
> 
> ac


 

Yes. Metelbest. (I believe it use to be called Metelbestos) It is made by Selkirk. The Selkirk website does not tell you a lot. But they have been making it a long time. Several of the local wood stove companies around here use this type of pipe. Here is a link to it.

http://www.ventingpipe.com/selkirk-metalbest/c24 Once you get there just click on the Class A chimney pipe and size that you want.

I like it. Twist the sections together at the joints and you are done. No more high temp. caulk needed. Well insulated. Piece of mind for safety.


----------



## avc8130

I stopped by the local heart supply.  He instantly pointed me towards black double wall pipe.  He suggested a telescoping length, 90 elbow and then a 24" length feeding into a 6-7 increaser.  Total cost ~$400.  The pipe he suggested is SS internal, black stove external.

Thoughts?

ac


----------



## infinitymike

Gasifier said:


> I have never used this telescoping pipe. So the telescoping just goes straight in and out. Right? There is no flexing it side to side or curving. Right?


 
Yes it is only an in and out adjustment. I used it on my set up. I put my thimble in the ceiling and secured the first piece of dbl wall ss in the thimble then was able to adjust the telescoping piece to the right length.









You can see that I extended it about 8 or so inches. You can also see the end of the fiberglass roping that I stuffed around the bottom since I didn't want to use any silicone so that it would be easy to pull apart. Which I have done several times. I have actually clogged the hole in the cone of the cyclone ash collector twice. How I don't know. Plus I have taken the pipe off to inspect it and it was just dusty, no creosote.
The supplier claims it is stainless on the inside and only black pipe on the outside. Maybe I will take it apart again(only takes 2 minutes) and see if a magnet sticks to the inside.
So hows the install going.
We need updates with pics
WE WANT PICS, WE WANT PICS, WE WANT PICS!


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> Yes it is only an in and out adjustment. I used it on my set up. I put my thimble in the ceiling and secured the first piece of dbl wall ss in the thimble then was able to adjust the telescoping piece to the right length.
> 
> 
> You can see that I extended it about 8 or so inches. You can also see the end of the fiberglass roping that I stuffed around the bottom since I didn't want to use any silicone so that it would be easy to pull apart. Which I have done several times. I have actually clogged the hole in the cone of the cyclone ash collector twice. How I don't know. Plus I have taken the pipe off to inspect it and it was just dusty, no creosote.
> The supplier claims it is stainless on the inside and only black pipe on the outside. Maybe I will take it apart again(only takes 2 minutes) and see if a magnet sticks to the inside.
> So hows the install going.
> We need updates with pics
> WE WANT PICS, WE WANT PICS, WE WANT PICS!


 
Mike,

Any issues attaching the double wall to the cyclone?

My money says a magnet will stick.  Most use 400 series stainless.  This series is generally magnetic and will rust on the surface, but takes an eternity to rust through.  This is similar to what most auto manufacturers use for their exhaust systems.

No progress on my install.  I need to figure out the chimney situation and then I will be ready to cut out the oil boiler and place the WG.  

My boiler guy is busy converting the house he bought from forced air to baseboard radiators.  

Trust me, if I have progress there WILL be pics!

ac


----------



## infinitymike

avc8130 said:


> Mike,
> 
> Any issues attaching the double wall to the cyclone?
> No It has a twist lock connection but  it just dropped on.
> There is also an adapter to attach it to the ss dbl wall pipe. I think you can see it in the first pic. It's kind of a reducer.
> 
> My money says a magnet will stick. Most use 400 series stainless. This series is generally magnetic and will rust on the surface, but takes an eternity to rust through. This is similar to what most auto manufacturers use for their exhaust systems.
> Interesting
> 
> 
> No progress on my install. I need to figure out the chimney situation and then I will be ready to cut out the oil boiler and place the WG.
> Maybe you could come out of the thimble with a  45* degree elbow then use the telescoping piece on an angle and then use a 45* elbow to connect to the ash collector.
> 
> My boiler guy is busy converting the house he bought from forced air to baseboard radiators.
> Doesn't he know you are more important! We need to see you up and running!
> 
> Trust me, if I have progress there WILL be pics!
> Thats what I'm talkin' about !!
> 
> ac


----------



## avc8130

I've thought about using 45's.  They are a bit more expensive than a 90, but if I can save a length it would be cheaper overall.  I need to come up 42" to the center of my thimble.  I would like to be ~24" on my horizontal run.  

ac


----------



## maple1

I just used plain single wall black stove pipe & off the shelf T (to get a clean out) & cut the pipe to length with a grinder. If that doesn't last sufficiently, I'll replace with something more substantial - but I think it'll be good for a while.


----------



## avc8130

maple1 said:


> I just used plain single wall black stove pipe & off the shelf T (to get a clean out) & cut the pipe to length with a grinder. If that doesn't last sufficiently, I'll replace with something more substantial - but I think it'll be good for a while.


 
I can't use single wall without some sort of shield due to clearances.

ac


----------



## Gasifier

You can see that I extended it about 8 or so inches. You can also see the end of the fiberglass roping that I stuffed around the bottom since I didn't want to use any silicone so that it would be easy to pull apart. Which I have done several times. I have actually clogged the hole in the cone of the cyclone ash collector twice. 

Mike. You probably figured this out already, but. If you plug the hole in the cone, which I have done many times, I just pull the ash pan out just far enough to get my hand in there and with a small screw driver clear the hole. This lets the ash pan still catch the ash and as you twist the screwdriver around it will start to fall in there until it is all gone.


----------



## avc8130

Mike,

What brand pipe is that?

ac


----------



## mikefrommaine

avc8130 said:


> I can't use single wall without some sort of shield due to clearances.
> 
> ac




You are making this more complicated than it needs to be. Buy some black pipe a few adjustable 90's cut to fit and shield the pipe wherever it gets too close to combustible surfaces. Should cost about 50 dollars and take no more than an hour.


----------



## avc8130

mikefrommaine said:


> You are making this more complicated than it needs to be. Buy some black pipe a few adjustable 90's cut to fit and shield the pipe wherever it gets too close to combustible surfaces. Should cost about 50 dollars and take no more than an hour.


 
Trust me, I realize.  The engineer side of me is the one having the confusion. 

If it wasn't for Gassifier's post about switching from SS single to double for draft issues, and Wood Gun's own requirement for SS, this would be a no-brainer.

My fear:
If I slap it up with single wall black, I can do that cheap and easy.  I will be "free" to make the horizontal run as long/short as I like.  If I want to change it later to something 2 wall (for whatever reason), I will most likely need 2 telescoping lengths.  One for the vertical (unavoidable) and one for the horizontal (avoidable by going to 2-wall from the start and placing boiler based on 24" factory length).
ac


----------



## maple1

Can you just place the boiler for the 24" horizontal now, use black single wall, then your boiler will be in the right place if you replace the single wall later?

Also, I think Gasifiers chimney is all outside - is yours? I really can't see where that initial bit of pipe being single or double wall will make much of a difference there if your chimney is inside. Does Wood Gun call for double wall - or just stainless single?


----------



## avc8130

maple1 said:


> Can you just place the boiler for the 24" horizontal now, use black single wall, then your boiler will be in the right place if you replace the single wall later?
> 
> Also, I think Gasifiers chimney is all outside - is yours? I really can't see where that initial bit of pipe being single or double wall will make much of a difference there if your chimney is inside. Does Wood Gun call for double wall - or just stainless single?


 
I THINK I could do that.  I priced single wall black: $215 for what I need with heat shield.

Double wall black: $320

My chimney is 8x8 masonry internal.  It goes from basement where the thimble height is ~6.5', up through 1st story, up through attic (~6') and then through the roof ~4'.

ac


----------



## maple1

That sounds like a lot for plain single wall black. The heat shield I got was $24.99, I think it extends to 4ft long (sliding sections). It's still in the box though. I know I got a 24in. piece of 7" black single wall that was $8.99, a 36in. piece of 7" was $15.99,  a 7in. T was $23.99, and 8in T was $37.99.


----------



## avc8130

maple1 said:


> That sounds like a lot for plain single wall black. The heat shield I got was $24.99, I think it extends to 4ft long (sliding sections). It's still in the box though. I know I got a 24in. piece of 7" black single wall that was $8.99, a 36in. piece of 7" was $15.99, a 7in. T was $23.99, and 8in T was $37.99.


 
Source?

ac


----------



## maple1

Local hardware store.


----------



## avc8130

maple1 said:


> Local hardware store.


 
I remember seeing it at Tractor Supply and price looked cheap.  Maybe I'll take a ride back down there.  I wonder if they sell the shield.

ac


----------



## avc8130

I just got off the phone with Darren at AHS.  We spoke about the chimney requirements.  He stated that double wall with a stainless liner would be my best bet. 

The reason they suggest the heavy wall stainless is since there will be high amounts of moisture in the exhaust gasses that may condense and rot out single wall steel rapidly. 

He said the insulation value of the double wall, combined with the SS inner should last a very long time.

ac


----------



## infinitymike

avc8130 said:


> I just got off the phone with Darren at AHS.  We spoke about the chimney requirements.  He stated that double wall with a stainless liner would be my best bet.
> 
> The reason they suggest the heavy wall stainless is since there will be high amounts of moisture in the exhaust gasses that may condense and rot out single wall steel rapidly.
> 
> He said the insulation value of the double wall, combined with the SS inner should last a very long time.
> 
> ac



I actually had puddles of water in the ash pan or real soggy ashes. I think my problem is the WG is in an unheated space except for what ever heat is created by the unit so I get condensation from the flue heating and cooling. 

Did you get a chance to get the model number of the cycle timer and take any pictures of it?


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> I actually had puddles of water in the ash pan or real soggy ashes. I think my problem is the WG is in an unheated space except for what ever heat is created by the unit so I get condensation from the flue heating and cooling.
> 
> Did you get a chance to get the model number of the cycle timer and take any pictures of it?


 
You are also a straight up install.  You could be condensing at the top of your run and it working its way straight down.  That would wind up in the cleanout in the bottom of my masonry chimney. 

I don't have the cycle timer yet.  I referenced YOUR thread to help determine which one was right.

ac


----------



## infinitymike

avc8130 said:


> I don't have the cycle timer yet. I referenced YOUR thread to help determine which one was right.
> 
> ac


 
Oh yeah, Thats right, I was just testing you. Good Job.


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> Oh yeah, Thats right, I was just testing you. Good Job.


You better get that smoke hood plumbed.  All of that smoke inhalation is making you delusional!

LOL

ac


----------



## infinitymike

avc8130 said:


> You better get that smoke hood plumbed. All of that smoke inhalation is making you delusional!
> 
> LOL
> 
> ac


----------



## avc8130

Not a whole lot to update.  I ordered the chimney connection on Friday.  It should be here tomorrow.  Once that is in I can place the boiler.  Trying to be cheap, I am using a fixed 24" length out of the masonry thimble so horizontal placement will be critical.

Thank goodness it is 70F here!  LOL

ac


----------



## infinitymike

avc8130 said:


> Not a whole lot to update. I ordered the chimney connection on Friday. It should be here tomorrow. Once that is in I can place the boiler. Trying to be cheap, I am using a fixed 24" length out of the masonry thimble so horizontal placement will be critical.
> 
> Thank goodness it is 70F here! LOL
> 
> ac


 
Better get a move on. 70* wont last much longer.

Hey i got the smoke hood piped up I ran it out the side of the garage wall  and I took the extension cord off and moved the switch to be mounted on the side of the unit.


----------



## avc8130

Mike,

That looks great.  I plan to do similar with my exhaust hood once I build one.  I will bring it into the control panel and mount a matching switch to make the install look a lot less of an afterthought.  

My chimney connection sections have arrived.  I hope I can convince my boiler guy to get onto my project soon!

ac


----------



## infinitymike

avc8130 said:


> Mike,
> 
> 
> My chimney connection sections have arrived. I hope I can convince my boiler guy to get onto my project soon!
> 
> ac


 

Thats good news.  You are on the schedule I was last year. I lit my first fire on 11/18/11.
You be up and running in no time. And its still pretty mild out. I'm still sleeping with a window cracked open!


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> Thats good news. You are on the schedule I was last year. I lit my first fire on 11/18/11.
> You be up and running in no time. And its still pretty mild out. I'm still sleeping with a window cracked open!


 
Right now I am concentrating on splitting and stacking wood for the out years.  We have no central heat right now and it isn't a problem.  We normally didn't use the oil heat until November anyways.

ac


----------



## avc8130

SMALL chance I'll be installing the WG tomorrow under generator powered lighting.  My boiler guy still hasn't gotten called back to real work, so if the supply house is open we will be plumbing tomorrow!

ac


----------



## avc8130

I'm working through the controls for my circulator pumps and I'm getting confused digging through Honeywell's aquastat offerings.

I want an aquastat the "Makes on Rise" so my circulator will only pump when the boiler temps are high enough for the water to be useful in my hydronic baseboards.  There is little sense running the circulator pump with water <~140F as it will just cool the boiler and provide little heat to the house.

I THINK that means I want a L4006B aquastat, but there are 4 or 5 offerings in that range.  What are the differences and which do I want?

ac


----------



## avc8130

TODAY is a big day.  I have the old boiler just about cut-out.  Placing new boiler will be done today.  If I am feeling motivated we might start plumbing/wiring.  Pics to follow.

ac


----------



## avc8130

In the spirits of "pics or it didn't happen":










































That should bring some life back to this thread!

ac


----------



## Woodsrover

Nice!


----------



## muncybob

Nice! The rear of this boiler looks different than mine but then agn I don't know what the back of the 140 looked like to begin with. My rear clean out door is square where your's is curved...and what is the round plate just above the fan? Looks like you'll be running soon.


----------



## avc8130

muncybob said:


> Nice! The rear of this boiler looks different than mine but then agn I don't know what the back of the 140 looked like to begin with. My rear clean out door is square where your's is curved...and what is the round plate just above the fan? Looks like you'll be running soon.


 
This is actually an E180.  

The cleanout doesn't have a quick handle, instead it uses a nut.  That is the main reason the install is 90 degrees off from "normal.  I figured I would maximize my rear access to make life easier for maintenance.

If you are referring to the round plate to the 10 o'clock position, that is where the oil burner goes.  I tried to mount my Beckett, but the bolt pattern didn't line up, the hole for the burner was too small and the burner hit the draft fan.  I have a call in to AHS to discuss.  They usually supply the units with Riello burners, but I was told I could use the Beckett I had on hand.

ac


----------



## 711mhw

I only open the rear door at the end of season cleaning, and even then I doubt it is necessary. Looking good! Remember to add a short legnth of pipe to that elbo on the intake air. When I insatlled mine I had to know why and their explanation made sence. (extend it down close to the floor)


----------



## avc8130

711mhw said:


> I only open the rear door at the end of season cleaning, and even then I doubt it is necessary. Looking good! Remember to add a short legnth of pipe to that elbo on the intake air. When I insatlled mine I had to know why and their explanation made sence. (extend it down close to the floor)


 
I figure I won't need to be in the rear door too often, but if I put it up against the chimney it would have been annoying.  That, coupled with the oil burner being on the back and needing service access made me orient it the way I did.

I have a 5' piece of 7" (only size I could find).  I plan to cut it down and bring the intake within a few inches of the floor.  I assume it needs to be extended to prevent it from ever turning into a 2nd "chimney".

ac


----------



## 711mhw

Exactly. I was not commentating on your 1/4 turn twist, acess is always a plus! Just on the fact that I find opening the back door is unnecessary for the normal cleaning. Cold front coming in thru in a few days, I betcha cant wait to light 'er up.


----------



## avc8130

It looks like you can rake the tubes out with the tool they provide to the front pretty decent.  It looks like some will fall into the door area in the back, but once that space is "full" it shouldn't really matter?  I figure I'll probably be accessing that area a lot in the first winter to get a feel for it.  Then I'll take it from there.

Yeah, I am quite excited.  I have done pretty much everything I am comfortable doing without supervision.  My boiler guy has developed shingles, so I'm hoping he has a quick recovery!

I'm not too scared of the cold front.  We can handle the temps they are showing with the wood stove and some box fans.  Once we have 30s during the day is when my wood stove is out-classed.

ac


----------



## avc8130

Just spoke to my boiler guy.  He says he is feeling better and hopes to be able to tackle the plumbing one evening this week! 

Looks like the weather gets warm again next week...

ac


----------



## avc8130

Plumbing is DONE.  It took us about 5 hours to button everything up and wire her in. 

It took close to 40 minutes to fill the boiler!  1/2" boiler fill took its sweet time to put 80 gallons in this monster. 

I used high temp silicone and metal tape to seal up the chimney connection joints.  I let it cure overnight. 

I plan to put the match to her tonight!

I'll post pictures when I get home tonight.

ac


----------



## avc8130

I figured out how to get the pics from my phone to photobucket.

Here is my control panel in its current state. I had to bring power in and add a relay for the circ pump. Pay no attention to the ugly circ pump neutral, that is just temporary as I was waiting for my L4006B aquastat to come in to keep the circ pump from running until there is warm water. I also added a knockout in the bottom for the cycle timer I plan to wire in once it arrives.





Side shot showing the supply side of the boiler. Yes, I did not plumb the blow-off to the floor yet.





This shot shows the chimney connection prior to metal tape. I can already tell sealing this is going to be "fun". This is prior to applying metal tape.  I may change the double wall to masonry connection. I am not 100% satisfied with the security at the moment.





This shot shows the "supply" connections. It is a bit wonky, but it was as neat as we could be working with the existing boiler hookups.





This is the "return". Again, a bit wonky but the best we could do with what was existing.





An overall pic of the rear. This shows the intake pipe (I went 30" instead of 24" since it just looked better). You can see I added a well for the aquastat in the top left tapping. Lowes didn't have the right aquastat, but this let me fill the boiler while I wait.





I still need to figure out my oil burner install. The WG is designed for the Riello, and I want to run a Beckett since it is more commonly understood in my area. I need to modify the adapter plate. That is what is blocked off in the lower left rear and the wire hanging. I also need to bring the copper oil lines over.

This evening will be full of bringing wood in and putting the torch to her to start it up. Wish me luck!

ac


----------



## Gasifier

Very nice ac! Nice job on the boiler and the pics! Thanks for sharing them! I did not read the entire thread. How much are you heating with that monster? Are you thinking storage at a later date or no? I see the shut off on the return and was thinking future return from storage?


----------



## avc8130

Gasifier said:


> Very nice ac! Nice job on the boiler and the pics! Thanks for sharing them! I did not read the entire thread. How much are you heating with that monster? Are you thinking storage at a later date or no? I see the shut off on the return and was thinking future return from storage?


 
Ranch House:
2500 sq-ft 1st floor with vaulted ceilings and big windows.
1000 sq-ft finished basement
41 Gallon Indirect DHW

Storage is TBD.  I am watching for propane tanks, and I want to experience the boiler without storage for a season.

Those are 1-1/4" full port ball valves before the circulator pump.  They were originally intended to heat my 30x50 insulated pole barn in a future project.  If storage is in the future, it will be Tee'd in on that loop.

ac


----------



## maple1

What kind of circ is that up there? I think I see it's mounted with the shaft vertical - I think most I've seen spec the shaft to be mounted horizontal.


----------



## Gasifier

avc8130 said:


> Ranch House:
> 2500 sq-ft 1st floor with vaulted ceilings and big windows.
> 1000 sq-ft finished basement
> 41 Gallon Indirect DHW
> 
> Storage is TBD. I am watching for propane tanks, and I want to experience the boiler without storage for a season.
> 
> Those are 1-1/4" full port ball valves before the circulator pump. They were originally intended to heat my 30x50 insulated pole barn in a future project. If storage is in the future, it will be Tee'd in on that loop.
> 
> ac


 
Very cool. I will read the entire thread in the future when I have time. You may end up getting a lot of idle time with that size unit heating that sq.ft. But if you plan on heating that 30x50 then you will need that size unit. Is the heat in the 30x50 radiant slab or forced air or .... ?  Hopefully it works out well for you. I am sure it will. Maybe when it is milder temps out you can do what I do and run it flat out twice a day and warm your basement up nice and warm and then shut the boiler right off for 6-8 hours. Depends on how much you or someone is going to be around to tend it, and when you get that cycle timer installed to keep those embers lit up for when it is idling. As you say, you will get experience this season without the storage. Nice set up.


----------



## avc8130

maple1 said:


> What kind of circ is that up there? I think I see it's mounted with the shaft vertical - I think most I've seen spec the shaft to be mounted horizontal.


 
Uh-oh.  It's a typical Taco 007.  Now you have me worried. 

ac


----------



## avc8130

Gasifier said:


> Very cool. I will read the entire thread in the future when I have time. You may end up getting a lot of idle time with that size unit heating that sq.ft. But if you plan on heating that 30x50 then you will need that size unit. Is the heat in the 30x50 radiant slab or forced air or .... ? Hopefully it works out well for you. I am sure it will. Maybe when it is milder temps out you can do what I do and run it flat out twice a day and warm your basement up nice and warm and then shut the boiler right off for 6-8 hours. Depends on how much you or someone is going to be around to tend it, and when you get that cycle timer installed to keep those embers lit up for when it is idling. As you say, you will get experience this season without the storage. Nice set up.


 
Yeah, I'm not sure.  My house solar heats a bit during the days too as we have a large Southern exposure. 

I don't plan on filling the wood chamber to the brim.  Enough wood for 12 hours is the goal I was told by AHS.

There is no heat in the 30x50 yet.  It will be forced air over a heat exchanger supplied by insulated piping like an OWB with a dedicated circ pump.

Cycle timer is a priority.   I KNOW I will be needing it.

ac


----------



## velvetfoot

Looking good!


----------



## maple1

avc8130 said:


> Uh-oh. It's a typical Taco 007. Now you have me worried.
> 
> ac


 
I just took a quick look at an install manual via. Pex Supply website. It specs horizontal only, but can do vertical with motor above if pressure is above 20psi. Maybe double check with your plumber or who you bought the pump from or someone else who would know for sure.


----------



## avc8130

maple1 said:


> I just took a quick look at an install manual via. Pex Supply website. It specs horizontal only, but can do vertical with motor above if pressure is above 20psi. Maybe double check with your plumber or who you bought the pump from or someone else who would know for sure.


 
Yeah, I am finding the same thing as I research. 

My system pressure is right about 20psi.  Since I have to drain that area to re-orient to get the motor up anyways, I'm going to talk to my boiler guy about turning the flanges to get it horizontal.

Darn.

ac


----------



## avc8130

I just got confirmation that my aquastat for circulator control got delivered.  I guess I'll be doing a tad more than just starting a fire tonight.

ac


----------



## Woodsrover

avc8130 said:


> Yeah, I am finding the same thing as I research.
> 
> My system pressure is right about 20psi. Since I have to drain that area to re-orient to get the motor up anyways, I'm going to talk to my boiler guy about turning the flanges to get it horizontal.
> 
> Darn.
> 
> ac


 
I would do that too.  Better safe than sorry.


----------



## Woodsrover

avc8130 said:


> Cycle timer is a priority. I KNOW I will be needing it.
> 
> ac


 
Above 30-degrees or so my hose seems to heat off nothing but the cycle timer.  I have it set for 6 minutes every 80 minutes and unless I'm using a bunch of hot water the boiler doesn't fire on temperature.  Yes, I think you'll want a timer.  It took me a while to tune it in just right but now I find it is very handy.


----------



## avc8130

Woodsrover said:


> Above 30-degrees or so my hose seems to heat off nothing but the cycle timer. I have it set for 6 minutes every 80 minutes and unless I'm using a bunch of hot water the boiler doesn't fire on temperature. Yes, I think you'll want a timer. It took me a while to tune it in just right but now I find it is very handy.


 
Which model are you using? I'm going to order one today.

ac

PS: I'm going to re-orient the circ pump.  Easier to deal with it now than have a failure later.


----------



## Woodsrover

avc8130 said:


> Which model are you using? I'm going to order one today.
> 
> ac


 
Whatever came with my WG.


----------



## avc8130

Woodsrover said:


> Whatever came with my WG.


 

Intermatic C8845 from my understanding.

ac


----------



## Gasifier

About the circ. pump.  If I remember correctly someone said this to me in one of my threads a long time back. And I think I have a Taco 007 that is mounted vertically, that is what they commented about. I will see if I can find it or double check the pump when I go home. But it had been there seven years since the install of the oil boiler and I had not had a problem with it. Doesn't mean it was done right, just didn't seem like it needed to be changed if it performed that long with no problems. If it ain't broke..........


----------



## Gasifier

Woodsrover said:


> Above 30-degrees or so my hose seems to heat off nothing but the cycle timer. I have it set for 6 minutes every 80 minutes and unless I'm using a bunch of hot water the boiler doesn't fire on temperature. Yes, I think you'll want a timer. It took me a while to tune it in just right but now I find it is very handy.


 
Why are you heating a hose?


----------



## Woodsrover

Gasifier said:


> Why are you heating a hose?


 
Ever have a cold hose?  No fun!


----------



## avc8130

Gasifier said:


> About the circ. pump. If I remember correctly someone said this to me in one of my threads a long time back. And I think I have a Taco 007 that is mounted vertically, that is what they commented about. I will see if I can find it or double check the pump when I go home. But it had been there seven years since the install of the oil boiler and I had not had a problem with it. Doesn't mean it was done right, just didn't seem like it needed to be changed if it performed that long with no problems. If it ain't broke..........


 
I appreciate the tidbit of experience. I think I'm going to swing the flanges and orient it horizontal. It isn't TOO terrible to do right now, and will put the configuration inline with what the manufacturer suggests. Right now I haven't kicked that circulator on yet, so I will just get it "right".

I can't blame you for not touching yours. I agree, you have a proven method that works. Stick it out.

ac

PS: I checked some old threads for pics of your setup.  Your pump is NOT vertical like mine :-(.  You have it mounted "properly".


----------



## Gasifier

avc8130 said:


> I appreciate the tidbit of experience. I think I'm going to swing the flanges and orient it horizontal. It isn't TOO terrible to do right now, and will put the configuration inline with what the manufacturer suggests. Right now I haven't kicked that circulator on yet, so I will just get it "right".
> 
> I can't blame you for not touching yours. I agree, you have a proven method that works. Stick it out.
> 
> ac
> 
> PS: I checked some old threads for pics of your setup. Your pump is NOT vertical like mine :-(. You have it mounted "properly".


 
I agree it is a good idea for you to change it now if it is easy for you. As far as my circ pump goes. You have seen my wood gun circ pump that sends heat from wood boiler to tank. Or my circ pump that sends heat from wood boiler and/or tank through primary loop on to the other side of the hall. (It is a long story.) One of my older threads shows my _other_ boiler room where my oil boiler lurks. And there are five more circ pumps in there for each zone in the house and garage! I actually have nine (9) circulation pumps.  There is one circ pump in there that someone commented on. That was in one of the old threads. The only way to see that is to go into the "old" hearth.com forum setup and look for it. I think I have that link somewhere.  Anywho, good luck with finishing your install and keep the pics and information coming. Always want to see wood boiler set ups and the like.


----------



## avc8130

Gasifier said:


> I agree it is a good idea for you to change it now if it is easy for you. As far as my circ pump goes. You have seen my wood gun circ pump that sends heat from wood boiler to tank. Or my circ pump that sends heat from wood boiler and/or tank through primary loop on to the other side of the hall. (It is a long story.) One of my older threads shows my _other_ boiler room where my oil boiler lurks. And there are five more circ pumps in there for each zone in the house and garage! I actually have nine (9) circulation pumps.  There is one circ pump in there that someone commented on. That was in one of the old threads. The only way to see that is to go into the "old" hearth.com forum setup and look for it. I think I have that link somewhere.  Anywho, good luck with finishing your install and keep the pics and information coming. Always want to see wood boiler set ups and the like.


 
Well fine then. Your system is messed up and hacked together. LOL J/K.

That's a lot of pumps! I thought about switching to a one pump/zone setup, then I decided "if it ain't broke..." for now.

I will definitely keep the pics coming, if it wasn't for posting pics I would have never known my circ pump was wrong!

ac


----------



## Gasifier

avc8130 said:


> Well fine then. Your system is messed up and hacked together. LOL J/K.
> 
> That's a lot of pumps! I thought about switching to a one pump/zone setup, then I decided "if it ain't broke..." for now.
> 
> I will definitely keep the pics coming, if it wasn't for posting pics I would have never known my circ pump was wrong!
> 
> ac


 
 You got that right. And it works great!  Actually, my house was built as an apartment house. And was a great layout to convert to one large house over the years. When originally built it had one large circulation pump and five zones for five apartments. Simple. I bought it, let's see, 18-1/2 years ago now. Over the years I had problems with the motor heads in the circulation pumps burning up in them. So when I installed the new oil boiler, oil was still a reasonable price at the time, I replaced all the zone valves with small circ pumps. Like them a lot better. Have had no problems with them. Then added one more in for the indirect water heater. So now there is six! When I added the Wood Gun in it's own room we put one for circ from boiler to tank and one for circ from boiler and/or tank through primary loop. Now we have eight! Then we added one just above the oil boiler so that the oil boiler would pump into primary loop as well. Now nine. Luckily, they are very reliable. So far!  I don't think I know anyone else who has nine circ pumps for there house and garage! So there.  Makes complete sense to me!


----------



## avc8130

Gasifier said:


> You got that right. And it works great!  Actually, my house was built as an apartment house. And was a great layout to convert to one large house over the years. When originally built it had one large circulation pump and five zones for five apartments. Simple. I bought it, let's see, 18-1/2 years ago now. Over the years I had problems with the motor heads in the circulation pumps burning up in them. So when I installed the new oil boiler, oil was still a reasonable price at the time, I replaced all the zone valves with small circ pumps. Like them a lot better. Have had no problems with them. Then added one more in for the indirect water heater. So now there is six! When I added the Wood Gun in it's own room we put one for circ from boiler to tank and one for circ from boiler and/or tank through primary loop. Now we have eight! Then we added one just above the oil boiler so that the oil boiler would pump into primary loop as well. Now nine. Luckily, they are very reliable. So far!  I don't think I know anyone else who has nine circ pumps for there house and garage! So there.  Makes complete sense to me!


 
You don't have to explain to me about wonky arrangements...just look at my supply and return manifolds!

I was thinking about going to a Grundfos Alpha pump since the head on my zone circulator must vary as different zones open and close. I decided against it for now as I am trying to limit my variables should something not heat well.

My indirect DHW has its own circ pump and draws from the supply separately. It returns to the shared manifold. I think they did this so it could get some "priority" should a few heat zones be open whilst someone is showering.  Since it worked, I didn't question it and kept the arrangement.

ac


----------



## maple1

I think we all have our system wonky spots.

Do you have return temp protection - or does the WG need it?


----------



## Gasifier

maple1 said:


> I think we all have our system wonky spots.
> 
> Do you have return temp protection - or does the WG need it?


 
Return protection on mine. Danfoss 140 . I read in the manual, after I bought the Danfoss, the part that says you should have 160 protection.  But it is all good.


----------



## maple1

Gasifier said:


> Return protection on mine. Danfoss 140 . I read in the manual, after I bought the Danfoss, the part that says you should have 160 protection.  But it is all good.


 
OK, I wasn't picking one out on avc's pics so was wondering if maybe they some kind of builit in bypass setup. Maybe there's something there I'm not seeing.


----------



## avc8130

maple1 said:


> OK, I wasn't picking one out on avc's pics so was wondering if maybe they some kind of builit in bypass setup. Maybe there's something there I'm not seeing.


 
I do NOT have return water temp protection.  I spoke to AHS about it at length, they maintained that it was not necessary on the SS boiler models.  

I DO have a circulator control aquastat.  I installed an aquastat in a spare well that "Makes on Rise".  I will set this to 160 with a 10 differential and use it to control my circulator pump.  This way my circulator pump will only work if the boiler temp is 160 or higher, and will only cool the boiler off to 150 before shutting down if the fire is out. 

That serves 2 purposes in my mind:
1. Doesn't waste electricity pumping water that won't heat my rooms anyways.
2. Will act as a defacto return water temp.  The boiler will be able to put 100% of its heat into heating the water if it is <160 even if the hose calls for heat.  This should limit the amount of water circulated below 140 anyways.

ac


----------



## maple1

I have a friend who has a s/s Woodgun. It has been a long time since I have seen it, but I don't remember there being return protection on it either.


----------



## avc8130

OK, nightly update:

1. I got the circulator flipped around.  What a nightmare!  We couldn't get one of the flanges to spin, so I had to go out and buy a 2nd 24" pipe wrench (previously the boiler guy brought his but he was busy tonight).  Once I had that we spun the flange and we were off to the races...or so we thought.  Since I didn't apply NEW pipe dope, the darn thing dribbled.  Took it back apart again, new dope, reassembled.  Looks "good" now.

2. I STARTED A FIRE!  and had to abort the attempt within seconds.  My basement FILLED with smoke.  Just about all of my chimney connections leak.  I had silicone and metal tape on them, but apparently I missed too much with the silicone to work.  I re-did the connections with more silicone, but I am still stuck...

HEY WOOD GUNNERS, HOW DO YOU SEAL THE FIRST PIPE SECTION CONNECTION TO THE CYCLONE?

My double wall pipe might be complicating this.  The inside wall slips inside the cyclone, the outside slips around the cyclone.

Suggestions?

ac


----------



## Woodsrover

avc8130 said:


> OK, nightly update:
> 
> HEY WOOD GUNNERS, HOW DO YOU SEAL THE FIRST PIPE SECTION CONNECTION TO THE CYCLONE?
> 
> My double wall pipe might be complicating this. The inside wall slips inside the cyclone, the outside slips around the cyclone.
> 
> Suggestions?
> 
> ac


 
I know they suggest an insulated pipe off these things but I'm not sure its really needed.  Burn dry wood and you shouldn't have a problem with moisture.  My WG does a LOT of idling and I get almost no water in the pan.  A drop or three at most.  The last thing I'm worried about is the pipe after the cyclone rusting out.

And yes, I think that is making things too complicated.  I can't stress enough how well-sealed the stove pipe has to be.  The exhaust is under a good deal of pressure and the tiniest hole will pump smoke and stink up your house.  Ask me how I know.  Also pay close attention to the seal on the ash pan door.  I had to re-do mine.  I also had a bad weld on my cyclone that I had to seal up.  WG needs to pay a little closer attention to these details.  A ran simple galvanized 26-gauge pipe up to my thimble and if I have to replace it every five or eight years, so-be-it.  I really don't think I will.


----------



## avc8130

Woodsrover said:


> I know they suggest an insulated pipe off these things but I'm not sure its really needed. Burn dry wood and you shouldn't have a problem with moisture. My WG does a LOT of idling and I get almost no water in the pan. A drop or three at most. The last thing I'm worried about is the pipe after the cyclone rusting out.
> 
> And yes, I think that is making things too complicated. I can't stress enough how well-sealed the stove pipe has to be. The exhaust is under a good deal of pressure and the tiniest hole will pump smoke and stink up your house. Ask me how I know. Also pay close attention to the seal on the ash pan door. I had to re-do mine. I also had a bad weld on my cyclone that I had to seal up. WG needs to pay a little closer attention to these details. A ran simple galvanized 26-gauge pipe up to my thimble and if I have to replace it every five or eight years, so-be-it. I really don't think I will.


 

Well, I'm not switching pipes now.
1. This setup was close to $400!
2. I NEED the double wall since my thimble is ~12" from the combustible floor joists.

Any tips/suggestions for how to seal with the silicone?

ac


----------



## avc8130

I picked up a batt of Roxul insulation and another 2 tubes of silicone.  Plan of attack:

1. Remove stupid metal tape that will probably dry out and leak.
2. Re-silicone ALL joints:
a. clean up loose original silicone
b. place a HEALTHY bead along edge of male piece, right where the crimp ends and pipe tapers
c. reassemble with screws and allow to cure
3. Roxul around masonry.  I didn't have a leak here, but I think packing it with fire-proof insulation will provide some stability and prevent any leaks.
4. Use a small amount of Roxul in between inner and outer pipe walls to try to seal to flange on the cyclone.  This will do 2 things:
a. hopefully prevent flow of smoke up between pipe walls and over flange
b. provide a gap to silicone outer wall to cyclone flange for a 2nd seal

Notes: I think AHS suggestion of using a clean out tee instead of an elbow SUCKS. 
1. It creates a 3rd joint that is super stupid tough to seal.  Having to seal this virtually nullifies any benefit of "easy" cleaning of the horizontal segment anyways.
2. This tee creates quite a bit of back pressure.  I think that is the main reason I am having so much trouble sealing it up.  None of my joints from the horizontal segment leaked, only those BEFORE the tee leaked.

Wish me luck!

ac


----------



## muncybob

Good luck to you ac. After reading what you are going through with the double walled pipe I'm glad I "cheaped" out and installed single wall. It must have been dissapointing to abort your first burn, but I'm sure you'll get it all sealed up soon. Then the fun finally begins.


----------



## Woodsrover

Good luck and don't get discouraged.  It took me a couple weeks to find and seal every little seep hole in my smoke pipe.  Got pretty frustrated with it and the basement still smells a bit from time to time.  The smoke that comes out of these isn't like smoke from a woodstove.  Its nasty stuff.


----------



## avc8130

muncybob said:


> Good luck to you ac. After reading what you are going through with the double walled pipe I'm glad I "cheaped" out and installed single wall. It must have been dissapointing to abort your first burn, but I'm sure you'll get it all sealed up soon. Then the fun finally begins.


 
Trust me, I wish I could/would have cheaped out.  Although, I know in the long run I'll get this sorted and be on my way and then have less to worry about. 

Yeah, I was stoked to fire her up and bring the boiler up to temp.  Really I rushed the process and am paying for it now with frustration.  I'm going to take my time now over the course of the weekend and get it sealed up really nicely. 

ac


----------



## mikefrommaine

avc8130 said:


> 2. I NEED the double wall since my thimble is ~12" from the combustible floor
> ac




Shield the joists with sheetmetal/1" spacers and use single wall.


----------



## avc8130

mikefrommaine said:


> Shield the joists with sheetmetal/1" spacers and use single wall.


 
Too late now.  

I just got done with a sealing session.

I got some 1/2" rope gasket and put it in the pipe that goes to the cyclone.  Then I put a HUGE amount of silicone in there.  Placed it over the cyclone.  I think it worked nicely.  It brought the pipe up ~1/2" from the cyclone and gave me a nice spot to put silicone around on the outside.

I re-did the rest of the joints with more silicone.

I'm going to let this cure over night and start a fire tomorrow evening.

ac


----------



## avc8130

Still battling. Wifey went to check the sealing job and reported about 50% leakage. Gooped on more silicone. 

Ac


----------



## avc8130

Still battling.  Found out the cleanout Tee is leaky around its factory joints. 

More silicone!  Fun, fun, fun.

ac


----------



## avc8130

The wife reports that she can't feel any air escaping from the flue pipe.  I think I'll start a fire this afternoon.

*fingers crossed*

ac


----------



## avc8130

I put the match (torch) to her again. 

Initially it smoke leaked for a bit, even came out around my cleanout door BELOW the thimble.  This all cleared up once the chimney had a natural draft established within ~30 seconds.

Temperature started rising...but so did pressure!  My system had 20psi cold.  I don't know why, but that is how the previous oil burner was set.  Sure enough, that went 30+ and we were testing out the pressure relief valve around 160F water temp.  I opened the boiler drain and bled down some pressure.  I reset the water feed to have 12psi cold. This "fixed" the problem for now.  I got to the 180F operating limit right as the gauge hit 30psi.  I need more expansion tank.

When I shut down due to over pressure the first time, some liquid dripped out from below the draft fan.  It must be excess moisture from the refractory and condensation from the firebox trying to warm the water from 50F. 

The unit is "operating" right now.  We have achieved gassification!

ac


----------



## maple1

Awesome - you're on your way. Not done by any means, as I've found out with mine (I was soldering again not two hours ago) - but things will fall into place. Or get pushed there eventually.


----------



## avc8130

maple1 said:


> Awesome - you're on your way. Not done by any means, as I've found out with mine (I was soldering again not two hours ago) - but things will fall into place. Or get pushed there eventually.


 
Yeah.  Tomorrow I'm going to swing by the plumbing supply and swap out my Extrol #30 for a #90.  That should take care of my expansion troubles.

Now to figure out how to feed this baby efficiently.

ac


----------



## BoilerMan

avc, as you've read in my smoke pipe post, mine only leaks for around a minute until there is enough heat to establish a natural draft as well.  Glad to hear you achieved gassification!  In a couple of months you'll be loving the heat/wood consumed!  I know I am.

TS


----------



## avc8130

So realistically, just how much wood should I be putting in this thing?  Similar amount daily to what I put in the wood stove?  I'm just looking for a baseline to get started.  I put in about a "stove's load" to start.

ac


----------



## BoilerMan

avc8130 said:


> So realistically, just how much wood should I be putting in this thing? Similar amount daily to what I put in the wood stove? I'm just looking for a baseline to get started. I put in about a "stove's load" to start.
> 
> ac


I can heat my house (3,200 square foot ranch) with my Quadrafire wood stove, which is very efficient epa clean burning, with around twice the wood that I'd burn in my boiler heating the slab.  This is a different situation than your wood gun, I would assume that you'd fill the firebox and let gun put it out and the "little elves" re-light the fire when needed until the fuel is all consumed.

TS


----------



## avc8130

Taylor Sutherland said:


> I can heat my house (3,200 square foot ranch) with my Quadrafire wood stove, which is very efficient epa clean burning, with around twice the wood that I'd burn in my boiler heating the slab. This is a different situation than your wood gun, I would assume that you'd fill the firebox and let gun put it out and the "little elves" re-light the fire when needed until the fuel is all consumed.
> 
> TS


 
I've been debating that.  AHS says not to put more wood in than will be consumed in 12 hours.  Apparently the wood will dry out as it awaits re-ignition and that could lead to puffing upon re-ignition.

ac


----------



## BoilerMan

Interesting they say "the wood will dry out" I thought we wanted _dry wood_. I'll have to let the actual WG owners comment.

TS


----------



## Woodsrover

I fill mine about 3/4 full on a cold night.  That easily takes me from say 7:00pm to 6:00am.  I load it about 1/2 full at 6:00 and that easily gets me through the day.

I have had a couple "puff backs", I'd guess you'd call them, though if I was home when they happened, I didn't know it.  The only way you'll know it happens is the damper on the intake pipe will slam shut.  And speaking of that damper, anyone know why its there?  I'm thinking of taking mine out.


----------



## Fred61

Woodsrover said:


> And speaking of that damper, anyone know why its there? I'm thinking of taking mine out.


 
That's your air adjustment.


----------



## avc8130

Woodsrover said:


> I fill mine about 3/4 full on a cold night. That easily takes me from say 7:00pm to 6:00am. I load it about 1/2 full at 6:00 and that easily gets me through the day.
> 
> I have had a couple "puff backs", I'd guess you'd call them, though if I was home when they happened, I didn't know it. The only way you'll know it happens is the damper on the intake pipe will slam shut. And speaking of that damper, anyone know why its there? I'm thinking of taking mine out.


 
You have a 100?  AHS claims that is 6 cu ft firebox capacity. My math shows that you should go through a cord of wood in ~17 days.  Is that the case?

My 180 is claimed 14 cu ft. I put probably 1/4-1/3 firebox worth of wood in last night ~8pm.  This morning at 6am, I found just a bit of coals along both sides of the nozzles.  It was plenty to rake over the nozzles and have instant gassification again, but the boiler was below low limit.  I put wood in ~1/3-1/2 for the day load.  That should be plenty since it will be warmer and my house will solar warm. I am burning 100% elm right now.

I took my first shower heated by wood.  This was the first morning I didn't take my shower in a cold bathroom.  I could get used to this.

ac


----------



## Woodsrover

I burned about 1/2 cord in the last two weeks.  Loaded another 1/2 cord in the basement yesterday so we'll see how that lasts.  Its been pretty cold here over-night lately but still pretty warm during the day.  I can see my wood use increasing by 50% when we really get into winter but I doubt it will double.  Time will tell.


----------



## Woodsrover

Fred61 said:


> That's your air adjustment.


 
Am I supposed to be adjusting this?  I know it sounds like a stupid question but I know three other people that have these boilers and nobody knows what we're supposed to be doing with this damper.


----------



## avc8130

Woodsrover said:


> Am I supposed to be adjusting this? I know it sounds like a stupid question but I know three other people that have these boilers and nobody knows what we're supposed to be doing with this damper.


 
I dug through the manual.  The only spot I found anything about the damper is if there is puffing, closing the damper might help reduce it.

My wife just noted there is more smoke from this than the wood stove.  She described it as "gray".  I assume steam?

ac


----------



## avc8130

I have noticed a distinct smell in the basement.  I think it smells like curing concrete.  Is this the refractory moisture letting off? 

ac


----------



## muncybob

Likely the smell is the initial burn off and should go away soon. AHS originally told me to run with the damper wide open but I did get huffing in an all out burn. My sweet spot is to run at about 3/4+ closed. You'll find your spot soon.

On start up you will see some smoke out the chimney but it will soon all but disappear and if you see anything it will likely be steam vapor.

When we had the smoke shield we could only load up to about 1/2 full, now that it's off we can load as much as we want. I am finding that just over half full gives us all the heat and hot water hat we need right now but perhaps that will change when it gets colder. Actually right now I can turn off the boiler at bed time and the house is only cool(64 or so) at 6am and I can have steaming hot water inside of 10 mintues after starting her up again. Last year we only used just about 4 cords, previous year was about 4.75 heating 2200 sq ft


----------



## avc8130

muncybob said:


> Likely the smell is the initial burn off and should go away soon. AHS originally told me to run with the damper wide open but I did get huffing in an all out burn. My sweet spot is to run at about 3/4+ closed. You'll find your spot soon.
> 
> On start up you will see some smoke out the chimney but it will soon all but disappear and if you see anything it will likely be steam vapor.
> 
> When we had the smoke shield we could only load up to about 1/2 full, now that it's off we can load as much as we want. I am finding that just over half full gives us all the heat and hot water hat we need right now but perhaps that will change when it gets colder. Actually right now I can turn off the boiler at bed time and the house is only cool(64 or so) at 6am and I can have steaming hot water inside of 10 mintues after starting her up again. Last year we only used just about 4 cords, previous year was about 4.75 heating 2200 sq ft


 
What basis did you use for adjusting your damper?

I had gasification when I closed the boiler door.  I assume she was seeing steam.

The smoke shield came out this morning.  I'll deal with the tiny bit of smoke until I get my hood setup for now.  The stupid clips AHS provided didn't work well and the shield half fell into the fire this morning when I was holding it out of the way to get wood in. 

ac


----------



## Woodsrover

Yes, ditch the smoke shield, install the hood.


----------



## muncybob

I had to install my own clips and washers to keep the shield in place. I was trying to run w/o the shield and during our learning curve we were getting too much smoke out the door. Found the best way to avoid this was to reload when down to coals only but it takes awhile to know when it's at this stage. So, we reinstalled the shield for 2 seasons with my own fasteners. Just recently installed the smoke hood and thought that's the end of smoke, but when I was out of town last week the Mrs switched over to oil. She did remember to pull the smoke plug for the oil channel but when she decide to go back to burning wood she installed the plug in the wrong hole....lotsa smoke!

The damper adjustment for us was to get the setting that best avoided the rumble that we semed to get when too much air was involved during a prolonged burn. Limiting the air intake not only resolved that for us but seemed to extend the time the load would last while still getting gasification. You'll figure all this out during your own learning curve.


----------



## Fred61

Woodsrover said:


> Am I supposed to be adjusting this? I know it sounds like a stupid question but I know three other people that have these boilers and nobody knows what we're supposed to be doing with this damper.


 
Bob's explanation of the function of the damper is right on!
When I removed the smoke shield or  "singed eyebrow shield", I experienced more door gasket erosion so I re-installed it.


----------



## avc8130

muncybob said:


> I had to install my own clips and washers to keep the shield in place. I was trying to run w/o the shield and during our learning curve we were getting too much smoke out the door. Found the best way to avoid this was to reload when down to coals only but it takes awhile to know when it's at this stage. So, we reinstalled the shield for 2 seasons with my own fasteners. Just recently installed the smoke hood and thought that's the end of smoke, but when I was out of town last week the Mrs switched over to oil. She did remember to pull the smoke plug for the oil channel but when she decide to go back to burning wood she installed the plug in the wrong hole....lotsa smoke!
> 
> The damper adjustment for us was to get the setting that best avoided the rumble that we semed to get when too much air was involved during a prolonged burn. Limiting the air intake not only resolved that for us but seemed to extend the time the load would last while still getting gasification. You'll figure all this out during your own learning curve.


 
Good call with the washers.  Any idea what ID they were?  I could grab some at work.

Reloading down at coals was wonderful this morning.  I'm not sure I'll be able to time that perfectly each time.

That is funny about the oil plug, well, in hindsight at least, right?

I haven't experienced this "rumble", but a longer time between loading is always desirable.

ac


----------



## avc8130

14-gallon expansion tank already en route from online supply, will be here tomorrow.  Price shipped to my house: $107.  Local plumbing supply price: $190.  I guess they really don't like "cash" sales without account.

ac


----------



## mikefrommaine

avc8130 said:


> 14-gallon expansion tank already en route from online supply, will be here tomorrow.  Price shipped to my house: $107.  Local plumbing supply price: $190.  I guess they really don't like "cash" sales without account.
> 
> ac


I use online suppliers as well. Sure beats going to the local supply house and dealing with grumpy know it all counter guy. And overpaying for the privilege. Pex supply has prices equal to what my plumber friend gets with his discount. And he has to run a 100k through his account every year to get his discount.

I just dealt with having to warranty two blower motors for some kick space heaters. Thought it was going it was going to be a hassle dealing with an online  supplier. But they took care of it no problem.


----------



## avc8130

mikefrommaine said:


> I use online suppliers as well. Sure beats going to the local supply house and dealing with grumpy know it all counter guy. And overpaying for the privilege. Pex supply has prices equal to what my plumber friend gets with his discount. And he has to run a 100k through his account every year to get his discount.
> 
> I just dealt with having to warranty two blower motors for some kick space heaters. Thought it was going it was going to be a hassle dealing with an online supplier. But they took care of it no problem.


 
That's who I used.  Order placed at 10AM.  Ship notification at 1pm.  Delivery shows tomorrow.  I didn't even leave my couch.

ac


----------



## muncybob

avc8130 said:


> Good call with the washers. Any idea what ID they were? I could grab some at work.
> 
> Reloading down at coals was wonderful this morning. I'm not sure I'll be able to time that perfectly each time.
> 
> That is funny about the oil plug, well, in hindsight at least, right?
> 
> I haven't experienced this "rumble", but a longer time between loading is always desirable.
> 
> ac


 
I don't recall the exact size, just went down to TSC and picked up some fender washers and longer clips. They were cheap so I grabbed a few of the sizes that looked best. It was rare that my timing to load at coals only ever worked....esp just before bedtime.


----------



## avc8130

muncybob said:


> I don't recall the exact size, just went down to TSC and picked up some fender washers and longer clips. They were cheap so I grabbed a few of the sizes that looked best. It was rare that my timing to load at coals only ever worked....esp just before bedtime.


 
Mine only worked out this morning because the boiler was OUT of wood.  Not exactly the best timed reload .

ac


----------



## avc8130

I came home from work, and checked the boiler of course.  6pm, last reload was ~6am.  

The boiler was at operating temp and not "running".  I hit the purge and waited for the green light.  Opened the door...hello smoke!  LOL  Still the remnants of ~4 splits plus a lot of coals in the chamber.  Too soon to reload.  I guess I put a bit too much wood in for the day's load.  

My wood chamber is officially covered in creosote.  Is this "normal"?  Good quality, sticky gooey tar.  I could make fence posts to last an eternity with this stuff!

My house also now smells like my basement a bit.  Same ode du concrete cure/wood burn.

ac


----------



## maple1

Yes, creosote is normal in the wood chamber. It should burn away in good fires. I find mine sometimes develops into brown flakes that fall off and/or burn up.


----------



## avc8130

maple1 said:


> Yes, creosote is normal in the wood chamber. It should burn away in good fires. I find mine sometimes develops into brown flakes that fall off and/or burn up.


 
Excellent.  Easy enough.  I am sure it is from the on/off nature of the unit.

ac


----------



## avc8130

I started inspecting possible causes of my odor.  I started at the ash drawer in the cyclone and found 2 things:

1. WATER!  I spoke to Darren at AHS, apparently this is common on the first cold start of the system.  Since the water is cold, and the fire is hot, A LOT of condensation occurs.  I'll monitor this.

2. ~2" of the gasket on the ash drawer had been leaking.  I put a dab of silicone under it and stuck it back down.

We shall see if that was the source of the odor.

ac


----------



## avc8130

I believe the source of my smell is the water in the flue. For some reason my flue gasses have been condensing and that creosote water really stinks!

I woke up to a cold boiler again...this time beyond restart capability. I thought I put in more wood than the night before, but she was EMPTY at 730 this morning. I reloaded at 9pm last night.  I also turned the damper from full open to 45 degrees.  I don't know why I did that, I just figured I would try.  Could that have caused a FASTER burn?

I think I am going to put a notebook down by the boiler and start monitoring #splits vs reported temperatures to get an idea.

Since the boiler went cold, I am letting it stay cold to take the opportunity to add the larger expansion tank this evening.

ac


----------



## muncybob

I had water in the ash pan too until I insulated all the near boiler piping. I esp had the water problem when burning oil but had some on wood too. Since then I insulated ALL my piping from boiler to chimney for a couple of reasons. The residual heat rising into the living room above kept the thermostat from calling for heat and the 2nd story of the house was getting a bit too cool while the living room was quite toasty. But the main reason was upon speaking with AHS about keeping the chimney temps a bit higher hoping this also would help to keep condensation down and at the same time minimize creosote in the chimney...seems to have done the trick for me.

Odd that reducing fresh air intake would burn faster? Even on the coldest nights I can load up at 10pm and still have hot coals at 6:30am. Are you using the cycle timer?


----------



## avc8130

muncybob said:


> I had water in the ash pan too until I insulated all the near boiler piping. I esp had the water problem when burning oil but had some on wood too. Since then I insulated ALL my piping from boiler to chimney for a couple of reasons. The residual heat rising into the living room above kept the thermostat from calling for heat and the 2nd story of the house was getting a bit too cool while the living room was quite toasty. But the main reason was upon speaking with AHS about keeping the chimney temps a bit higher hoping this also would help to keep condensation down and at the same time minimize creosote in the chimney...seems to have done the trick for me.
> 
> Odd that reducing fresh air intake would burn faster? Even on the coldest nights I can load up at 10pm and still have hot coals at 6:30am. Are you using the cycle timer?


 
I do have a bunch of Roxul around.  I could wrap the piping with some zip ties pretty easily.  Maybe I'll try that if I keep having the problem.  I let Darren at AHS know about it.  He has been AWESOME.

Yeah, head-scratcher here too.  No cycle timer.  

I am having trouble relating "full".  Most of the other WG owners here have E-100.  That has a 6.5 cu ft firebox according to AHS.  I have the E-180.  It has a 14 cu ft firebox.  I was figuring my 1/2 full ~ your full?

ac


----------



## muncybob

If you do plan to insulate be sure the insulation will handle high temps or you'll get some smoldering and even worse smell...ask me how I know 

When using the smoke shield I could only get about 6 or 7 splits in the firebox. I have yet to load more than that this year(1st yr w/o the shield) but I would guess a full load(max capacity) would be 12+ splits. Since I'm guessing we can normally get about a 10 hour burn from 8 splits, that's probably as much as we'll load at a time. Our splits are usually about 16" to 18" long.


----------



## avc8130

muncybob said:


> If you do plan to insulate be sure the insulation will handle high temps or you'll get some smoldering and even worse smell...ask me how I know
> 
> When using the smoke shield I could only get about 6 or 7 splits in the firebox. I have yet to load more than that this year(1st yr w/o the shield) but I would guess a full load(max capacity) would be 12+ splits. Since I'm guessing we can normally get about a 10 hour burn from 8 splits, that's probably as much as we'll load at a time. Our splits are usually about 16" to 18" long.


 
Roxul/rotten cotton insulation acceptable?

Hmm...I think I burned right through ~12 splits last night.  Of course, it IS not oak...

ac


----------



## muncybob

Not sure what the Roxul you have is rated to. Give it a try, you'll know fairly soon if it will work or not. I got some blanket insulation that was rated to very high temp(1200+ degrees I think) and that is wrapped by a foil insulation. Even at full burn my wrapped single wall duct piping is cool to the touch.
It was suggested that if your boiler is on cement to even insulate below the ash pan. I have not done that since I don't see a need any longer.
Certainly what wood you are burning will have a lot to do with how long a load lasts. Currently e are burning a mixture of soft pine and cherry. Right now 10 splits are lasting 24 hours, of course that will change soon enough!


----------



## avc8130

My Roxul is rated to 2000f. 

I am amazed your single wall is cool to the touch. My double wall is warm! 

I am burning elm and ash right now. 

ac


----------



## avc8130

My cycle timer has arrived.  Now to figure out how to wire this thing in...

ac


----------



## maple1

avc8130 said:


> I do have a bunch of Roxul around. I could wrap the piping with some zip ties pretty easily. Maybe I'll try that if I keep having the problem. I let Darren at AHS know about it. He has been AWESOME.
> 
> Yeah, head-scratcher here too. No cycle timer.
> 
> I am having trouble relating "full". Most of the other WG owners here have E-100. That has a 6.5 cu ft firebox according to AHS. I have the E-180. It has a 14 cu ft firebox. I was figuring my 1/2 full ~ your full?
> 
> ac


 
Holy crap - you guys have some big boxes. I hadn't paid attention to it before, but just checked my manual & did some metric converting - mine is only 4 cu.ft.. Now I'm not feeling oh so bad about filling it full every 4 hours if necessary when it gets real cold. Right now I'm burning in the evenings only - a cold start with 3/4 to a full load, then a refill 4 hours or so later on the way to bed with a bit less, maybe 2/3-3/4. Sounds like about the same cu.ft./day as you guys overall.


----------



## avc8130

I got home and UPS was nice enough to drop off my new expansion tank!

Here is a pic of the "setup" I have been using the past 2 days:







You can see the boiler drain "plumbed" into the "holding tank" for rapid reduction of pressure. You can also see the over-pressure valve "plumbed" into the "holding tank" in the event the boiler needed to vent a bit when I wasn't paying attention.

Here is the new PROPER solution:






As you can see, it is plumbed in with an isolation valve w/ drain port facing the tank. Yeah, it hits that blue valve on my indirect loop. Oh well for now, I've done enough plumbing this month!

I also found the MAJOR source of my smoke leak during startup: my clean door below the thimble.  Fixed this pretty quick by opening the door and stuffing the area packed with Roxul 2000F insulation.

I'm re-firing the boiler right now. I'm trying Darren's suggestion of using very small splits and burning them for 30 minutes before adding any new wood to the cold boiler. Then load to the bottom of the door. We shall see if this prevents condensation from a cold start.

ac


----------



## BoilerMan

BTW avc, can I use the word "wonkey" ???  That is a great term to describe awkward plumbing and mechanical things in general I love it!!

TS


----------



## avc8130

Taylor Sutherland said:


> BTW avc, can I use the word "wonkey" ??? That is a great term to describe awkward plumbing and mechanical things in general I love it!!
> 
> TS


Of course!  I've been referring to this plumbing as "wonky" all along!

Fired back up again.  Darren's suggestion worked quite well to keep the condensation down.  Up to 180F...23psi.  Success! 

Odor is reducing...but still present.  So far I am enjoying all of this tinkering.  The best part?  I get to start tinkering all over again once I tackle installing/setting up the oil back up!
ac


----------



## infinitymike

muncybob said:


> Currently e are burning a mixture of soft pine and cherry. Right now 10 splits are lasting 24 hours, of course that will change soon enough!


 
Holy Moly! 10 splits in 24 hours. I must be doing something wrong or you are only heating your house to 65*. Or maybe my house is a leaky SOB. Either way I burn through about 20 or more splits a day.

Now I know there are a bunch of variables. But heres my set up. 500 sq ft heated area of basement, 1200 sq ft 1st fl,   600 sq ft 2nd fl
New Andersen windows and doors, New attic insulation over 2nd fl, new wall insulation in front half of 1st fl walls. T-stat set to come on at 5am and raise house from 66* to 70* where it will stay until 11pm. Last year I burned 5+ cord of very green locust, cherry and oak (20 splits per day on avg). This year I whipped through .75 cord of sugar maple. And am currently burning 15-20 pieces per day of ash and cherry that was split in july. My splits are 24" long

Maybe I'm doing something wrong.


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> Holy Moly! 10 splits in 24 hours. I must be doing something wrong or you are only heating your house to 65*. Or maybe my house is a leaky SOB. Either way I burn through about 20 or more splits a day.
> 
> Now I know there are a bunch of variables. But heres my set up. 500 sq ft heated area of basement, 1200 sq ft 1st fl, 600 sq ft 2nd fl
> New Andersen windows and doors, New attic insulation over 2nd fl, new wall insulation in front half of 1st fl walls. T-stat set to come on at 5am and raise house from 66* to 70* where it will stay until 11pm. Last year I burned 5+ cord of very green locust, cherry and oak (20 splits per day on avg). This year I whipped through .75 cord of sugar maple. And am currently burning 15-20 pieces per day of ash and cherry that was split in july. My splits are 24" long
> 
> Maybe I'm doing something wrong.


 
I think I am burning more in line with you Mike.  I was running 24 splits/day through my wood stove.  That is ~18" length on average.  If I can put that through the boiler, have the whole house 1 temp, not trip over fans, not worry about closing certain doors and not have to put a sweatshirt on just to go the bedroom before the t-stat kicked up for the night, I'd be THRILLED.

ac


----------



## maple1

infinitymike said:


> Holy Moly! 10 splits in 24 hours. I must be doing something wrong or you are only heating your house to 65*. Or maybe my house is a leaky SOB. Either way I burn through about 20 or more splits a day.
> 
> Now I know there are a bunch of variables. But heres my set up. 500 sq ft heated area of basement, 1200 sq ft 1st fl, 600 sq ft 2nd fl
> New Andersen windows and doors, New attic insulation over 2nd fl, new wall insulation in front half of 1st fl walls. T-stat set to come on at 5am and raise house from 66* to 70* where it will stay until 11pm. Last year I burned 5+ cord of very green locust, cherry and oak (20 splits per day on avg). This year I whipped through .75 cord of sugar maple. And am currently burning 15-20 pieces per day of ash and cherry that was split in july. My splits are 24" long
> 
> Maybe I'm doing something wrong.


 
With the wood being split just this past July, maybe it's not as dry as it should be? I know that if I tried that here it wouldn't even be close - it started raining in early September & didn't really let up until the last week or two, which would have left maybe only two months of decent drying conditions. Right now I'm burning about 7cu.ft. per day (rough estimating based on specd firebox volume, it's actually less than that since the wood is a few inches shorter than the firebox), in the evening. That's keeping us lots warm. My wood was put in seasoned but wet (from the rain) in early October, it's still a bit damp in spots. 1500sq.ft. unfinished basement, 1500q.ft. first floor, 1200sq.ft. second floor.


----------



## avc8130

maple1 said:


> With the wood being split just this past July, maybe it's not as dry as it should be? I know that if I tried that here it wouldn't even be close - it started raining in early September & didn't really let up until the last week or two, which would have left maybe only two months of decent drying conditions. Right now I'm burning about 7cu.ft. per day (rough estimating based on specd firebox volume, it's actually less than that since the wood is a few inches shorter than the firebox), in the evening. That's keeping us lots warm. My wood was put in seasoned but wet (from the rain) in early October, it's still a bit damp in spots. 1500sq.ft. unfinished basement, 1500q.ft. first floor, 1200sq.ft. second floor.


 
What is "warm" and what are outside temps?

7 cu ft is .055 cord per day.  Most seasoned wood is ~20 million btu/cord.

Quick math: 20,000,000 * .055: 1.1 million btu daily.

Efficiency?  ~80%?  Call it ~800,000 btu daily use.

Maybe.

I NAILED my load last night.  Woke up in my warm bedroom, took my warm shower in my warm bathroom, walked through my warm hallway, passed the woodstove sitting idle in the warm wood room, through the warm kitchen and down the warm stairs into the warm basement.  I found the boiler firing and opened her up.  Beautiful bed of coals with just 2-3 pieces that resembled their original state as splits.  They quickly broke to bits as I raked the coals over the nozzles and added ~10 splits for the day.  Instant gassification and satisfaction.

I'm pretty sure I put too much wood in for today, I didn't realize we were going back to summer with 50F. 

I hope to wire in my cycle timer tonight.  Swapping expansion tanks took up all my "boiler" time last night.

ac


----------



## maple1

Since I got the gasser on line, I've reduced the setbacks on our thermostats from what they were before, and upped the temps. Upstairs (bedrooms) it used to be up to 20c at 6pm, then down to 18c at 10pm, then down to 16c at 6am. Now it's up to 21c at 6pm, down to 19c at 11pm, and 18 at 6am. Downstairs kitchen zone (largest), used to be up to 20 at 5pm (now 21c at 4:30), down to 17c at 10pm (now 18c at 11pm), up to 20c at 6:30am (now 21c at 6:30), down to 17c for the day at 7:30am (now 18c). Other downstairs zone (living room/office), is a manual stat that I used to turn way down on the way to bed so heat wouldn't come on there at all during the night (now turn down to 18c), then up to 18c when I got up (now turn to 21c & leave it there until bedtime), then to 20c around supper time - depending if I'm home during the day. The basement, I've got one end of my storage tank insulation box cracked open to let some heat out to take the chill off. It hasn't been real cold yet, usually down to maybe -5c at night & +5c during the day - and the sun has been shining the past few days so we're getting good solar gain. I'm likely closer to 5 - 6 cu.ft. than 7, some of the wood I'm burning right now is quite short. I've also got a couple of my basement windows open for air to move thru for better wood drying, and to let combustion air in.

Glad to see you're getting into the swing of it. I still get hypnotized by the window in my gassing chamber sometimes when I check on things & there's a good burn going. Last night I went down for a peek on the way to bed around 11pm, and didn't make it to bed until 11:30. All I did was watch.


----------



## JP11

avc8130 said:


> I NAILED my load last night.


 
Only WE understand this.  If you say this at the water cooler..  you're GONNA get funny looks.  

Think of how much easier it would be with storage. 

Glad you're happy with your setup today.

JP


----------



## muncybob

Mike, keep in mind that currently we are firing the boiler 1st thing in the morning(6am) to about 70*(usually the house is at 66* then) and she's "on" until apprx. 10am. House maintains comfortable level(68*+) all day(even warmer if sunny) until about 3pm when the Mrs. will fire up again and use a fair amount of dhw for bath, laundry, etc. Boiler will be active then until I retire for the day at about 10pm. This routine is somewhat new to us this year. In the past I have been using the cycle timer and left the boiler on all day. For now and until the nights get colder this routine allows for quick recovery in the morning(takes about 15 minutes to get heat/dhw) from a cold start. We heat about 2200 sq.ft. living space and the basement is toasty due to residual heat loss from the WG. About 1/2 of the 2200 ft is very well insulated as this is a fairly new addition that I put in a few years ago and was sure to seal up as well as I could afford at the time. Once we leave the WG running all day I'm sure we'll be in your ballpark for wood usage.

ac, glad to see your tank arrived and appears you are on your way to resolving the issues you had. From what I've seen, it's rare to install a new wood boiler and not have some bumps in the road until you get smooth sailing. One thing for sure that is common to all of us is the satisfaction of avoiding large heating bills and the feeling of self sufficiency...nothing like it!


----------



## muncybob

I would love to have a view window on the WG but then I guess I would need a comfy chair in front of the boiler too.


----------



## avc8130

JP11 said:


> Only WE understand this. If you say this at the water cooler.. you're GONNA get funny looks.
> 
> Think of how much easier it would be with storage.
> 
> Glad you're happy with your setup today.
> 
> JP


 
Storage isn't out of the question just yet.  However, with my baseboards I would need a LARGE quantity to store enough BTUs with my limited temperature differential.

I'm not finding this "difficult".  I just have no experience, once I have experience I'll know what the boiler needs and everything should be "easier".

ac


----------



## avc8130

muncybob said:


> Mike, keep in mind that currently we are firing the boiler 1st thing in the morning(6am) to about 70*(usually the house is at 66* then) and she's "on" until apprx. 10am. House maintains comfortable level(68*+) all day(even warmer if sunny) until about 3pm when the Mrs. will fire up again and use a fair amount of dhw for bath, laundry, etc. Boiler will be active then until I retire for the day at about 10pm. This routine is somewhat new to us this year. In the past I have been using the cycle timer and left the boiler on all day. For now and until the nights get colder this routine allows for quick recovery in the morning(takes about 15 minutes to get heat/dhw) from a cold start. We heat about 2200 sq.ft. living space and the basement is toasty due to residual heat loss from the WG. About 1/2 of the 2200 ft is very well insulated as this is a fairly new addition that I put in a few years ago and was sure to seal up as well as I could afford at the time. Once we leave the WG running all day I'm sure we'll be in your ballpark for wood usage.
> 
> ac, glad to see your tank arrived and appears you are on your way to resolving the issues you had. From what I've seen, it's rare to install a new wood boiler and not have some bumps in the road until you get smooth sailing. One thing for sure that is common to all of us is the satisfaction of avoiding large heating bills and the feeling of self sufficiency...nothing like it!


 
I am debating switching to this method now.  I don't think I have much heat demand at all during the day when it is ~45F outside.  I know I need heat from ~sundown to 10AM.  I might start burning strong from when I get home for work and then reload real small in the morning before I leave.  Then let the boiler bottom out at 150F where the low temp cutoff will shut off the fan and 140F where the circ will stop running.

I will also be wiring in the cycle timer tonight hopefully.

Darren's advice for my flue gas condensing is to use larger splits to cause the boiler to fire longer to achieve the same btu output due to the decreased surface area of burn.  This should reduce the down time.

Trust me, I never expected the entire install to go perfectly smooth.  The FREEDOM of being able to walk around the house unobstructed is just amazing.  Something only a former stove user could understand.  No fans.  No doors.  All 1 comfy temp.  Feeling a little chilly?  Hit the button on the t-stat up a bit.  We can split another round next year, it's worth it.

ac


----------



## avc8130

Got home and sure enough the fire was out.  It looks like it failed early on in the day.  Not much destruction was done to the fuel load.  It did hit 50F today here. 

So I guess it was perfect timing that I installed my cycle timer tonight.  My initial setting is 10 mins every 2 hours.  Sound like a good place to start?

Re-starting the fire was super easy.  I took the torch to the splits and they INSTANTLY went red and glowing.  Full on engulfed fire within a minute.

ac


----------



## infinitymike

muncybob said:


> Mike, keep in mind that currently we are firing the boiler 1st thing in the morning(6am) to about 70*(usually the house is at 66* then) and she's "on" until apprx. 10am. House maintains comfortable level(68*+) all day(even warmer if sunny) until about 3pm when the Mrs. will fire up again and use a fair amount of dhw for bath, laundry, etc. Boiler will be active then until I retire for the day at about 10pm. This routine is somewhat new to us this year. In the past I have been using the cycle timer and left the boiler on all day. For now and until the nights get colder this routine allows for quick recovery in the morning(takes about 15 minutes to get heat/dhw) from a cold start. We heat about 2200 sq.ft. living space and the basement is toasty due to residual heat loss from the WG. About 1/2 of the 2200 ft is very well insulated as this is a fairly new addition that I put in a few years ago and was sure to seal up as well as I could afford at the time. Once we leave the WG running all day I'm sure we'll be in your ballpark for wood usage.


 

Actually remeasured house: 1550 sq ft basement only 550 finished. 1550 sq ft 1st fl   600 sq ft 2nd fl
Total heated living space 2700 sq ft.
plus 500 sq ft garage stays at 60* from residual heat from unit.( and its not even insulated)

Basically thats what is happening here. The unit stays off (but ready to fire) from around 8;30 am to 4:30ish.
Then the house starts to call and will take 30-45 minutes to heat up. Then it sits until 10pm before it calls again and I load up for overnight.
 But Im still using about 15-20 splits. 

I re-split 6 pieces of The stuff I split in July and its 22-24% mc. remember its ash and cherry
Can a few % really make such a drastic difference that I would reduce my quantity by 5-10 splits?
I have a clip board hanging on the wall next to the boiler and log in the outside air temp, the date, time and the amount of splits I add and any other info I may think my be important.
I also count how many pieces I load into the wood rack.
Went through last years notes and was burning an average of 18-22 splits per day for most of the heating season.

One thing I know will help is I need to add insulation in the attic over the first floor.


----------



## infinitymike

avc8130 said:


> Then let the boiler bottom out at 150F where the low temp cutoff will shut off the fan and 140F where the circ will stop running.
> 
> ac


 
Thats interesting. My circulator that pushes hot water from the WG to the primary loop only runs when the house is calling for heat and a zone circ pump will also be running. Why is your circ pump running after the WG shut down? Does your circ pump run continuously? If so what is it pumping?

The house could actually not be calling for heat and therefore no pumps will be on and yet just due to natural cooling have the WG lose enough temperature that it will try to re-ignite to bring itself back up to temp. If it doesn't re-light it will continue to cool until it hits 140* and shuts off. I just changed the low temp cut off from 150* to 140*  because it seems to help give it a little more time for the unit to re-light.


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> Thats interesting. My circulator that pushes hot water from the WG to the primary loop only runs when the house is calling for heat and a zone circ pump will also be running. Why is your circ pump running after the WG shut down? Does your circ pump run continuously? If so what is it pumping?
> 
> The house could actually not be calling for heat and therefore no pumps will be on and yet just due to natural cooling have the WG lose enough temperature that it will try to re-ignite to bring itself back up to temp. If it doesn't re-light it will continue to cool until it hits 140* and shuts off. I just changed the low temp cut off from 150* to 140* because it seems to help give it a little more time for the unit to re-light.


 
I have one circ and it is powered by an ice cube relay triggered by ANY zone valve end switch.  The power from the relay first travels through the circ aquastat.  If the aquastat is happy that the WG has hot water, power passes to the pump and away she pumps until the thermostat closes the zone valve and un-trips the relay.

Since the WG doesn't run on a typical "call for heat" like a fossil boiler, I set my circlators (both heat and DHW) up to run completely on their own.

The WG definitely loses a LOT of heat to the basement.  There seems to be virtually NO insulation on the front of the unit.  I have been considering lowering my low temp limit, but I really want the unit to stay above the 130F condensation mark.  The draft fan really speeds up the unit from cooling.  Stopping it at 150F might buy more time before the unit goes "cold".

If you want to provide more time for a possible relight, why not reduce the differential on the operating aquastat?  Rather than 15 drop, set it to 10.

ac


----------



## infinitymike

avc8130 said:


> If you want to provide more time for a possible relight, why not reduce the differential on the operating aquastat? Rather than 15 drop, set it to 10.
> 
> ac


 
Hmmm... I don't have a differential on my aquastat it's a Honeywell L4006.  Just a low cut off setting (set for 140*) and a high cut off setting (set for 200*)

Then I have a low limit stat set for 140* which trip the relay and activate the oil burner. I also have an operating limit stat which is set for 190*


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> Hmmm... I don't have a differential on my aquastat it's a Honeywell L4006. Just a low cut off setting (set for 140*) and a high cut off setting (set for 200*)
> 
> Then I have a low limit stat set for 140* which trip the relay and activate the oil burner. I also have an operating limit stat which is set for 190*


 
That double aquastat should provide over temp protection and low temp cutoff.  There should be another aquastat (on the back on mine) that is the "operating".  This one controls when the damper/fan operate to fire the boiler.  On mine, this aquastat has an adjustable differential.  You have to remove the cover to see it/change it.  Reducing that differential would cause the WG to fire more often, although for a shorter period of time.

ac


----------



## muncybob

avc8130 said:


> Got home and sure enough the fire was out. It looks like it failed early on in the day. Not much destruction was done to the fuel load. It did hit 50F today here.
> 
> So I guess it was perfect timing that I installed my cycle timer tonight. My initial setting is 10 mins every 2 hours. Sound like a good place to start?
> 
> Re-starting the fire was super easy. I took the torch to the splits and they INSTANTLY went red and glowing. Full on engulfed fire within a minute.
> 
> ac


ac, the timer was a trial & error situation for us to get to where we are now. Initially I had the settings set that caused over firing and the WG would shut down due to high limit. The sweet spot for us is to cycle once(1 clip) every hour. This seems to give it just enough draft to keep the coals hot but not actually burn long enough to increase water temp.


----------



## avc8130

muncybob said:


> ac, the timer was a trial & error situation for us to get to where we are now. Initially I had the settings set that caused over firing and the WG would shut down due to high limit. The sweet spot for us is to cycle once(1 clip) every hour. This seems to give it just enough draft to keep the coals hot but not actually burn long enough to increase water temp.


 
Wow, that is only ~2-3 mins/hour.  I guess since it occurs so frequently, it is sufficient.  

ac


----------



## avc8130

Since I know everyone loves pics, here are 2 of the mods I have made:

This is my circulator control aquastat (the one on the left).  It is a "make on rise" model.  It is set to connect the circuit and allow the circulator pump to run after the boiler hits 160F.  This GREATLY speeds up the boilers recover from cold as it lets the full btu go to the 80 gallons in the water before the baseboards get a chance to steal any.  The differential is set to 15F, so it will cut the circulator off at 145F if the boiler either loses fire or runs out of wood.







Here is my cycle timer.  It is the standard Intermatic C8845 that Wood Gun would supply.  As you can see, I have it set to fire for 10 mins every 2 hours.  I have no clue if this is a good setting or not.  You can also see that I didn't have the proper color wire to match WG's convention, so I broke out my label maker and labeled them accordingly.






Today I decided not to run the boiler during the day.  The day time temp was 55F and that just seemed silly.  It will be cold again tonight, so I will run it to heat the house and charge the DHW indirect for tomorrow's showers.

ac


----------



## infinitymike

Very nice. Did you get the timer from AHS or somewhere else. What did it cost you?  I think I've seen them online for $100 or may be more I don't remember.
I need to get one and hook it up.

What happens if the unit is running and brings it to full temp then shuts down and a minute later the timer goes off and turns the unit back on?
Do you think it will over heat and blow the TP valve? Or will the hi limit aqua stat shut down first? 

Thats some control box. I don't have anything like that. I guess because you got the oil option they gave you a bigger box to fit all the other switches.
Did you add that power strip to connect the wires or did it come with it?

Looks like next week we will need to heating most of the day. Highs in low 40's and lows in mid 30"s.


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> Very nice. Did you get the timer from AHS or somewhere else. What did it cost you? I think I've seen them online for $100 or may be more I don't remember.
> I need to get one and hook it up.
> 
> What happens if the unit is running and brings it to full temp then shuts down and a minute later the timer goes off and turns the unit back on?
> Do you think it will over heat and blow the TP valve? Or will the hi limit aqua stat shut down first?
> 
> Thats some control box. I don't have anything like that. I guess because you got the oil option they gave you a bigger box to fit all the other switches.
> Did you add that power strip to connect the wires or did it come with it?
> 
> Looks like next week we will need to heating most of the day. Highs in low 40's and lows in mid 30"s.


 
I ordered it from a supplier online. Used Google Shopping to find cheap price. It was a bit less than $100.

The high limit aquastat is the over-arching control on the boiler. That remains unchanged. 200F and the boiler is shutting off no matter what.

I think the oil option is what gets the bigger box. When I looked at them at the factory, anything without just had the on/off and purge in a small box.  Can you take a pic inside yours?

The power strip was there. I was very impressed with AHS's wiring setup.

I added the ice cube relay at the top to power the circulator. I also added knockouts for the power feed, circulator and timer feeds, as well as the grommet for the thermostat signal. I plan to bring my smoke hood power source from the control box. I intend to wire it inline with the purge timer. That way whenever the purge timer is run to reload, the exhaust fan will come on without another switch.

That should be a good week. I've been monitoring every load to determine how well I can correlate heat load to splits. 40s is still pretty warm. These 20s at night take some wood.

ac


----------



## infinitymike

Just ordered the timer from Zorotools.com. 
$83 plus $7 tax free shipping. 
I hate taking business away from the local suppliers but if I remember correctly the local electrical supply house want close to $180.


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> Just ordered the timer from Zorotools.com.
> $83 plus $7 tax free shipping.
> I hate taking business away from the local suppliers but if I remember correctly the local electrical supply house want close to $180.


 
Screw the electric and plumbing supply houses.  They don't WANT OUR business.  I needed the larger expansion tank so I called the local plumbing supply house figuring I could have it that day.  They wanted $180!  pexsupply.com had it for $105 SHIPPED.  I had it the NEXT DAY.  The supply houses only work if you have a $100k annual account.  If you don't, they just **** you.

You ready to wire that in?
White:Clock
Red: Switch/Common
Blue: Normal Open

If that doesn't make sense, open the cover panel.  Basically Switch/Normal parallels the purge circuit and Clock is neutral.

ac


----------



## Gasifier

AC, How are things going for ya?

Good to see you are making progress with the Gun. Sorry to read about your issues with getting things sealed up. I just got through reading the rest of the thread. I did not have to use caulk on the joints of the insulated pipe. I used a high temp tape. Good stuff. I say high temp. It is only rated for 210 degrees. But on the outside of the insulated pipe it works just fine. I have seen no deterioration. It is silver in color and here is a link to it. I know I bought it locally at one of the box stores. Probably Lowe's.

http://www.shurtape.com/Default.aspx?Tabid=79&MLevel1=73&MLevel2=86&MLevel3=87&ProductID=30 

I have had no leaks after I taped it up. I did have to use high temp caulk on the single wall just above the ash cyclone for the 16 inches or so until it converts to the insulated pipe. Remember to keep an I on the high temp. caulk because depending on brand it will dry out and crack and you can eventually get a leak down the road. This is why I went to the tape. There is higher temp. tape out there but with the pipe being insulated I do not believe it is necessary.

How is the cycle timer working out for you? I think I am going to order one of those now as well, if it is working for you. I see Mike already has. That is a good price for those for the convenience of them. Temps are going down to 17here tonight. Great wood burning weather!  Love it.


----------



## avc8130

Gasifier said:


> AC, How are things going for ya?
> 
> Good to see you are making progress with the Gun. Sorry to read about your issues with getting things sealed up. I just got through reading the rest of the thread. I did not have to use caulk on the joints of the insulated pipe. I used a high temp tape. Good stuff. I say high temp. It is only rated for 210 degrees. But on the outside of the insulated pipe it works just fine. I have seen no deterioration. It is silver in color and here is a link to it. I know I bought it locally at one of the box stores. Probably Lowe's.
> 
> http://www.shurtape.com/Default.aspx?Tabid=79&MLevel1=73&MLevel2=86&MLevel3=87&ProductID=30
> 
> I have had no leaks after I taped it up. I did have to use high temp caulk on the single wall just above the ash cyclone for the 16 inches or so until it converts to the insulated pipe. Remember to keep an I on the high temp. caulk because depending on brand it will dry out and crack and you can eventually get a leak down the road. This is why I went to the tape. There is higher temp. tape out there but with the pipe being insulated I do not believe it is necessary.
> 
> How is the cycle timer working out for you? I think I am going to order one of those now as well, if it is working for you. I see Mike already has. That is a good price for those for the convenience of them. Temps are going down to 17here tonight. Great wood burning weather!  Love it.


 
I think I have it all sealed up.  I still get an odor while running the boiler, but I am becoming accustomed to it I think.  LOL

So far, so good running the boiler.  The house is definitely WARM.  Hot water is plentiful.  So far I am very happy.

I'm going to poke around Lowes for the high temp tape today, just to have on the shelf.  I don't like the hokey setup right now since it will be tough to clean. I think once Spring rolls around and I shut the boiler off for the summer I might but Schedule 10 SS pipe and an elbow and weld up a solid flue connector for it.  I'll get a length of 8" and make my own reducing flange at the masonry thimble.  Then I can flue cement that in permanently and use a flange connection with rope or silicone gasket to make that seal.  Then I will only battle the cyclone seal...unless I flange that too!

I've burned about 2/3 of 1/4 cord through the boiler and just pulled ~1 gallon of ash from the cyclone and front door.  I know the rear door has more in it, but it can stay.

I have no report on the cycle timer yet.  I haven't tried filling the boiler and letting it cycle just yet.  I have no clue where to set the timer trips either.

I think I had an "out" boiler this morning, but that is because I think it essentially ran out of wood.  I am still trying to get an idea just how much wood needs to go in this thing overnight.  I think tonight I will be putting 20 splits in.

ac


----------



## avc8130

I made some adjustments to the cycle timer.  Now I have it set for 2 trips (~4 mins) every hour.  I lost fire yesterday at some point so I made the adjustment.

Overslept a bit this morning and woke up to a cold boiler.  Started a fire and warmed it up.  Apparently on the next automatic restart attempt we had a pretty good puff back.  Got the smoke detectors going and the dog freaked out. 

Has anyone piped their intake outside?  Do I have to come DOWN 24" on the intake before heading outside?  Ideally I would be able to stay up high and run along the ceiling outside.

ac


----------



## Gasifier

avc8130 said:


> I made some adjustments to the cycle timer. Now I have it set for 2 trips (~4 mins) every hour. I lost fire yesterday at some point so I made the adjustment.
> 
> Overslept a bit this morning and woke up to a cold boiler. Started a fire and warmed it up. Apparently on the next automatic restart attempt we had a pretty good puff back. Got the smoke detectors going and the dog freaked out.
> 
> Has anyone piped their intake outside? Do I have to come DOWN 24" on the intake before heading outside? Ideally I would be able to stay up high and run along the ceiling outside.
> 
> ac


 
I have not piped my intake outside. If it is in your basement I would leave it drawing air in from there. I would not want cold air from outside coming into the boiler when it is really cold outside. I think it would be better for your 60ish air in the basement to be taken into the boiler.

As far as a cold boiler goes. I have had an occasional "bridging effect" because of a larger split holding up the other wood and the coals burning right out from underneath it. You have to watch out for that as well.


----------



## avc8130

Gasifier said:


> I have not piped my intake outside. If it is in your basement I would leave it drawing air in from there. I would not want cold air from outside coming into the boiler when it is really cold outside. I think it would be better for your 60ish air in the basement to be taken into the boiler.
> 
> As far as a cold boiler goes. I have had an occasional "bridging effect" because of a larger split holding up the other wood and the coals burning right out from underneath it. You have to watch out for that as well.


 

What do you feel the concern is with cold air?  A lot of stoves run OAK.  Cooler air has more oxygen...isn't that a good thing?  It looks like the manual requires that the intake be brought to the floor first and then back up and out.  That makes sense to me.  This would also create a bit of a heat trap.  

I haven't experienced bridging yet.  I just haven't been putting in enough wood/reloading often enough.  I do notice that the wood load won't all make its way over the nozzles.  I think the diameter of the refractory in my 180 is a bit bigger than the 100/140s and a bit of the wood load remains off the nozzles as the charge burns near the end.

ac


----------



## Gasifier

avc8130 said:


> What do you feel the concern is with cold air? A lot of stoves run OAK. Cooler air has more oxygen...isn't that a good thing? It looks like the manual requires that the intake be brought to the floor first and then back up and out. That makes sense to me. This would also create a bit of a heat trap.
> 
> I haven't experienced bridging yet. I just haven't been putting in enough wood/reloading often enough. I do notice that the wood load won't all make its way over the nozzles. I think the diameter of the refractory in my 180 is a bit bigger than the 100/140s and a bit of the wood load remains off the nozzles as the charge burns near the end.
> 
> ac


 
I may be wrong ac. I am no expert that is for sure. But I believe that cold air coming into your boiler is like cold wood coming into your boiler. I want warm air and warm wood coming into the boiler. It just seems like if you want the fire and boiler to be hot, which I do, then why add freezing cold air or freezing cold wood. There is always going to be moisture in the wood. And if it is 10 degrees outside then the moisture is frozen. Requires energy to thaw it and then get rid of the moisture. I try to bring my wood inside at least two full days ahead of when I am going to put it in the boiler. The air in my basement is usually at least 70 degrees. Hopefully others will give you their opinion on this. Let me know how that cycle timer works out for you. Has it been kicking it on every hour now?


----------



## avc8130

Gasifier said:


> I may be wrong ac. I am no expert that is for sure. But I believe that cold air coming into your boiler is like cold wood coming into your boiler. I want warm air and warm wood coming into the boiler. It just seems like if you want the fire and boiler to be hot, which I do, then why add freezing cold air or freezing cold wood. There is always going to be moisture in the wood. And if it is 10 degrees outside then the moisture is frozen. Requires energy to thaw it and then get rid of the moisture. I try to bring my wood inside at least two full days ahead of when I am going to put it in the boiler. The air in my basement is usually at least 70 degrees. Hopefully others will give you their opinion on this. Let me know how that cycle timer works out for you. Has it been kicking it on every hour now?


 
Interesting idea.  I wonder how much energy would really be spent to use 0F outside air vs 70F basement air.  The specific heat of air is so low, I bet it isn't much. 

I bring my wood inside also.  I have been keeping ~1/8 cord inside at a time for now.  I just put the last of my first 1/4 cord through the boiler this afternoon.

ac


----------



## avc8130

I have been thinking lately, I have an old school Fluke Type K thermocouple setup.  It uses very small wire lead. 

Think it would be ok to put in one of the side gassification chambers and sneak it out through the lower door?

I'm just so curious. 

ac


----------



## Woodsrover

Gasifier said:


> ...I believe that cold air coming into your boiler is like cold wood coming into your boiler. I want warm air and warm wood coming into the boiler. It just seems like if you want the fire and boiler to be hot, which I do, then why add freezing cold air or freezing cold wood.....


 
I understand your point but if you're drawing your intake air from inside the house, that air still has to be made up by bringing cold air into your living space through any little cracks in the sills, door frames, window sills, etc.  I'd rather pull the air right into the firebox than throughout the house.  As you know, these things pull in a lot of air.


----------



## avc8130

Woodsrover said:


> I understand your point but if you're drawing your intake air from inside the house, that air still has to be made up by bringing cold air into your living space through any little cracks in the sills, door frames, window sills, etc. I'd rather pull the air right into the firebox than throughout the house. As you know, these things pull in a lot of air.


 
The WG seems to need every bit of the 5" duct!  In my basement, I bet it gets most of its air through my 2 single pane steel framed windows and old wood door to Bilco doors. At the moment I have one of the windows open to combat the smell.

ac


----------



## Gasifier

Woodsrover said:


> I understand your point but if you're drawing your intake air from inside the house, that air still has to be made up by bringing cold air into your living space through any little cracks in the sills, door frames, window sills, etc. I'd rather pull the air right into the firebox than throughout the house. As you know, these things pull in a lot of air.


 
Not me. The five inch pipe is closed off by the damper by almost 80%. At least mine is anyway. Yes, it does draw in air from outside.  A little fresh air into the house never hurts. Yup, it does work against heating the house a little. I don't want cold air or cold wood going directly into my boiler. My house is large. If I was in a small, really tight house, that may be different. But I would still want to pre-heat it some how.


----------



## muncybob

Mike, as ac stated you don't need to worry about over firing with the timer as long as your high set point is 200 or less. With that said, you may experience the back-puff(or whatever it's called) if the timer kicks in too soon after a burn. It's rare but is has happened to us.
Wiring the exhaust fan to the purge timer had also crossed my mind too...a good idea ac.


----------



## avc8130

Gasifier said:


> Not me. The five inch pipe is closed off by the damper by almost 80%. At least mine is anyway. Yes, it does draw in air from outside. A little fresh air into the house never hurts. Yup, it does work against heating the house a little. I don't want cold air or cold wood going directly into my boiler. My house is large. If I was in a small, really tight house, that may be different. But I would still want to pre-heat it some how.


 
What lead you to having your damper 80% closed?


----------



## avc8130

muncybob said:


> Mike, as ac stated you don't need to worry about over firing with the timer as long as your high set point is 200 or less. With that said, you may experience the back-puff(or whatever it's called) if the timer kicks in too soon after a burn. It's rare but is has happened to us.
> Wiring the exhaust fan to the purge timer had also crossed my mind too...a good idea ac.


 
I had that happen.  Threw enough smoke through the intake to set the smoke detector off.  Had a mad dash to the basement.  The dog was the most upset.  She is TERRIFIED of the beeping.

This is what lead me to want to pipe the air intake outside.

ac


----------



## Gasifier

avc8130 said:


> What lead you to having your damper 80% closed?[/quote
> 
> You just talked about it in your post. Puffing. Having the damper closed down 80%, or even closed all the way, helps prevent the puffing that comes with dry wood. Sometimes the Gun is getting too much air. I don't think bringing the air in from outside is going to prevent that. I may be wrong, I certainly have been in the past!


----------



## avc8130

I didn't think bringing the air in from outside would prevent the puff...but if a puff did occur, hopefully the smoke would go outside rather than into the basement.

ac


----------



## Gasifier

avc8130 said:


> I didn't think bringing the air in from outside would prevent the puff...but if a puff did occur, hopefully the smoke would go outside rather than into the basement.
> 
> ac


 
 This is true. I wasn't thinking about that. LOL. After some trial and error and talking to other Wood Gun owners in the boiler room I found that having my damper closed almost all the way prevents almost all puffing. If I get some really dry wood in there, or their was more wood than necessary in there that dried out and the boiler went into idle then I may get a puffing when it lights up. But it is really rare now. How is that cycle timer working? I am curious as to why you are still getting that smell. Is that just from the puffing you had? Or are you getting a creosote kind of smell? Your wood is certainly dry enough. Most of my wood is from 17 - 22%, roughly.


----------



## avc8130

Gasifier said:


> This is true. I wasn't thinking about that. LOL. After some trial and error and talking to other Wood Gun owners in the boiler room I found that having my damper closed almost all the way prevents almost all puffing. If I get some really dry wood in there, or their was more wood than necessary in there that dried out and the boiler went into idle then I may get a puffing when it lights up. But it is really rare now. How is that cycle timer working? I am curious as to why you are still getting that smell. Is that just from the puffing you had? Or are you getting a creosote kind of smell? Your wood is certainly dry enough. Most of my wood is from 17 - 22%, roughly.


 
Well, the puff back closed the damper off.  I opened it back up ~1/2 way. 

The cycle timer "works".  IE, it spins and turns the boiler on whenever it trips on the jumpers.  I haven't lost a fire since (assuming I had enough wood).  I have also proven that the high limit aquastat works to cut off the boiler.  I think 5 mins/hour might be a bit often.  My heat demand today kept the boiler active enough that the cycle timer pushed to the high limit.  Interestingly enough, when the high limit kicks in it also stops the cycle timer from rotating until the boiler drops below the differential temperature.  Then the cycle timer starts again and boosts it back up.  It's a bit of a cycle. 

I think the smell I have is creosote-like.  I have had a few drips from the draft fan area, but that was mostly during the first fire up of the boiler last Monday.

ac


----------



## Gasifier

avc8130 said:


> Well, the puff back closed the damper off. I opened it back up ~1/2 way.
> 
> The cycle timer "works". IE, it spins and turns the boiler on whenever it trips on the jumpers. I haven't lost a fire since (assuming I had enough wood). I have also proven that the high limit aquastat works to cut off the boiler. I think 5 mins/hour might be a bit often. My heat demand today kept the boiler active enough that the cycle timer pushed to the high limit. Interestingly enough, when the high limit kicks in it also stops the cycle timer from rotating until the boiler drops below the differential temperature. Then the cycle timer starts again and boosts it back up. It's a bit of a cycle.
> 
> I think the smell I have is creosote-like. I have had a few drips from the draft fan area, but that was mostly during the first fire up of the boiler last Monday.
> 
> ac


 
AC,

 I don't know what your going to think after I tell you this!  After telling you that with my damper being closed I had all but eliminated the back puffing I was getting ready for bed and went down to fill the boiler. I could here that sound again! When I got to it my boiler was chugging away like a steam locamotive!   It had just the right conditions I guess. I had to turn the fan on and open the door with my cleaning tool ready and shift the load so that everything fell over and covered the nozzle. The wood had dried out enough and there was enough of a space around the back end of the nozzle that the fire was just a screamin but was creating that chugging (puffing) again.  With only a little over one full year with the boiler, I am still learning as well.  Happy burning.


----------



## avc8130

Gasifier said:


> AC,
> 
> I don't know what your going to think after I tell you this!  After telling you that with my damper being closed I had all but eliminated the back puffing I was getting ready for bed and went down to fill the boiler. I could here that sound again! When I got to it my boiler was chugging away like a steam locamotive!  It had just the right conditions I guess. I had to turn the fan on and open the door with my cleaning tool ready and shift the load so that everything fell over and covered the nozzle. The wood had dried out enough and there was enough of a space around the back end of the nozzle that the fire was just a screamin but was creating that chugging (puffing) again.  With only a little over one full year with the boiler, I am still learning as well. Happy burning.


 
I have read about this "chugging" but have yet to experience it.  I thought it was caused by lack of sufficient oxygen?

The "puffing" I was referring to happens when the boiler is in standby with the damper closed and fan off and it turns on.  As the damper opened, the fresh air sucked in and ignited the wood gas.  It quickly expands quicker than the fan can pull it down through the nozzle and shoots out the intake. 

ac


----------



## avc8130

I guess my cycle timer settings weren't good enough.  I came home to 90% of the wood load I put in at 6AM today.  Dead.  Cold.  The boiler was "on", but temps were dropping and it was near the low temp cutoff.  

I added an extra "clip" each hour.  I'll try ~6-7 mins hourly now.

ac


----------



## mikefrommaine

Careful, you are getting dangerously close to making your wood gun idle. You might have upset the fire starting elves.


----------



## avc8130

mikefrommaine said:


> Careful, you are getting dangerously close to making your wood gun idle. You might have upset the fire starting elves.


 
LOL.  I'm honestly not sure what happened.  The SLIGHTEST bit of flame from the propane torch and we were off and running.  

The cycle timer doesn't really "idle".  Instead it is like a WOT 1/4-mile run every hour.

ac


----------



## mikefrommaine

avc8130 said:


> The cycle timer doesn't really "idle".  Instead it is like a WOT 1/4-mile run every hour.
> 
> ac


Hate to break it to you  but that is pretty much the definition of idleing. Welcome to the land of the mere mortal wood boiler owners.

I have mine set to do a 5 sec wind sprint every 20 minutes.


----------



## JP11

mikefrommaine said:


> Hate to break it to you but that is pretty much the definition of idleing. Welcome to the land of the mere mortal wood boiler owners.
> 
> I have mine set to do a 5 sec wind sprint every 20 minutes.


 
Not even sure WHAT mine does.. but it's something every once in a while.  Controller says MAX on it.  I'll leave it to "HAL" to take care of the burn.

JP


----------



## avc8130

mikefrommaine said:


> Hate to break it to you but that is pretty much the definition of idleing. Welcome to the land of the mere mortal wood boiler owners.
> 
> I have mine set to do a 5 sec wind sprint every 20 minutes.


 
Whatever helps you sleep at night. If the boiler idled, it wouldn't need the cycle timer. I liken it to my car. When I leave my car idling, it will sit there until it runs out of fuel ready for me to drive it. It doesn't require an outside source like a battery and me to turn the key to get it to start. This is what the cycle timer does, it allows the oxygen back to the party and forces draft.

Who knows, maybe the elves just took a day off?

Call it whatever you will, I really don't care. This fire goes OUT if there isn't enough demand, whether it runs out of fuel or not.

Now to just figure out the proper amount of "WOT" to keep it happy.

ac


----------



## Woodsrover

6 minutes every 120 minutes seems to work for me.

Matter of fact, until it gets below 30-degrees this is enough fire to satisfy any demand I have for heat or hot water.  The boiler doesn't fire on a lot-temp demand until it gets below 30 or we're doing a bunch of laundry.


----------



## avc8130

Woodsrover said:


> 6 minutes every 120 minutes seems to work for me.
> 
> Matter of fact, until it gets below 30-degrees this is enough fire to satisfy any demand I have for heat or hot water. The boiler doesn't fire on a lot-temp demand until it gets below 30 or we're doing a bunch of laundry.


 
I would say my house is similar at ~40F.  I'm not sure why laundry is taxing your boiler.  We do all of ours in cold water.

ac


----------



## BoilerMan

Did you tell the elves that Thanksgiving break is over?  Maybe they thought they had an extended vacation.  "Some people's elves..........these days" 

TS


----------



## Woodsrover

avc8130 said:


> ... I'm not sure why laundry is taxing your boiler. We do all of ours in cold water.
> 
> ac


 
I'm usually making a mess of myself in some fashion or another.  Used to wash in warm, now I wash in hot.


----------



## avc8130

Taylor Sutherland said:


> Did you tell the elves that Thanksgiving break is over? Maybe they thought they had an extended vacation. "Some people's elves..........these days"
> 
> TS


 
Oh no!  I sure hope these aren't the same elves that are going to be overwhelmed with prepping gifts for kids this Christmas season.  If that is the case, I'll NEVER have a warm boiler!  

ac


----------



## BoilerMan

LOL,  Depends on how good the kids have been.  Could give them a lump of coal, but there is another source of heat.

TS


----------



## avc8130

Taylor Sutherland said:


> LOL, Depends on how good the kids have been. Could give them a lump of coal, but there is another source of heat.
> 
> TS


 

It's amazing how we age.  My first thought: "Really?  You Promise?!?!"

They make a gun for that too! LOL

ac


----------



## mikefrommaine

avc8130 said:


> Whatever helps you sleep at night. If the boiler idled, it wouldn't need the cycle timer. I liken it to my car. When I leave my car idling, it will sit there until it runs out of fuel ready for me to drive it. It doesn't require an outside source like a battery and me to turn the key to get it to start. This is what the cycle timer does, it allows the oxygen back to the party and forces draft.
> 
> Who knows, maybe the elves just took a day off?
> 
> Call it whatever you will, I really don't care. This fire goes OUT if there isn't enough demand, whether it runs out of fuel or not.
> 
> Now to just figure out the proper amount of "WOT" to keep it happy.
> 
> ac



I think we're saying the same thing. A car meters the fuel and air mixture to produce the desired rpm or output. When it's ideling it uses just enough air and fuel to keep from stalling.

A wood gasser works the same, gotta give it enough air to mix with the fuel to keep it from stalling. That's what your cycle timer is doing. Keeping your boiler idleing. Other boilers have the cycle timer built into the controller. Mine does, but I cant set it to turn itself off. The longest I can go between cycles is 120 minutes with the fans coming on for 1 second.


----------



## avc8130

Let me ask you this:

When your car idles, is there not exhaust?

When I first had issues with my WG flue connection, I had a full on fire established just after a major smoke show.  I flipped the switch off and the fan stopped and the damper closed.  I completely removed the flue connection.  Absolutely nothing on the cycle. 

NOT a whisp of smoke.  Nothing.  No exhaust. 

ac


----------



## mikefrommaine

avc8130 said:


> Let me ask you this:
> 
> When your car idles, is there not exhaust?
> 
> When I first had issues with my WG flue connection, I had a full on fire established just after a major smoke show.  I flipped the switch off and the fan stopped and the damper closed.  I completely removed the flue connection.  Absolutely nothing on the cycle.
> 
> NOT a whisp of smoke.  Nothing.  No exhaust.
> 
> ac



The exhaust on idleing car is intermittent. The engine is just cycling on a much faster basis than a wood boiler so the exhaust seems continuous.

On an ic engine there is a intake stroke, compression, power and exhaust stroke.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Arbeitsweise_Zweitakt.gif


----------



## avc8130

mikefrommaine said:


> The exhaust on idleing car is intermittent. The engine is just cycling on a much faster basis than a wood boiler so the exhaust seems continuous.
> 
> On an ic engine there is a intake stroke, compression, power and exhaust stroke.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Arbeitsweise_Zweitakt.gif


 
Like I said.  Whatever helps us sleep at night.  I really don't care.  Idling, off, lying in wait.  Doesn't matter to me.  As long as the house is warm I don't see the point in fighting semantics.

ac


----------



## Gasifier

And you will also get to the point AC where you will not need to measure the right amount of wood in the boiler. It took me a while but if your splits do not create a bridge effect and there is enough demand for it to turn on once every couple of hours or so, it will not go out completely. It is a balancing act, that is for sure. I have had my boiler go for much longer than that and had that little ember get fired back up again by that powerful fan. And away the gassification went. So many variables involved. But getting that good coal bed going and keeping it over the nozzle. I drink a cold beer with my elves sometimes. It seems to help. Hopefully my wife won't ever hear me talking to them when I am down there.


----------



## avc8130

Gasifier said:


> And you will also get to the point AC where you will not need to measure the right amount of wood in the boiler. It took me a while but if your splits do not create a bridge effect and there is enough demand for it to turn on once every couple of hours or so, it will not go out completely. It is a balancing act, that is for sure. I have had my boiler go for much longer than that and had that little ember get fired back up again by that powerful fan. And away the gassification went. So many variables involved. But getting that good coal bed going and keeping it over the nozzle. I drink a cold beer with my elves sometimes. It seems to help. Hopefully my wife won't ever hear me talking to them when I am down there.


 
I have confidence. I'm not worried. I'm LOVING this stupid thing. I am home enough that the house itself hasn't gone cold, just the boiler.  If I just put more wood in it, I probably wouldn't have any problems.  I'm just hung up on how little wood you guys put in.  If I just load the darn thing, it works fine.

No matter how I slice it, this house has never been this warm since we moved here!

On a side note: my "smell" seems to be coming under control.  I think it was caused by the curing refractory and the LARGE amount of liquid creosote/condensation created by the initial firing from 50F well water to full temp.

ac


----------



## infinitymike

How many times do I have to tell you guys?! There is no such thing as fire elves! Only fire GREMLINS


----------



## infinitymike

Remember I caught one in the act of relighting the fire after it was off and not idling


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> Remember I caught one in the act of relighting the fire after it was off and not idling


 
I caught one in the act this morning too!  I opened the boiler to cool to the touch coals and log remnants.  As I turned around and reached for the tool and some fresh wood charge, the fire sprung back to life.  Maybe it was idling, maybe it was out, maybe I still haven't found my elf/gremlin's hiding spot.  I really don't care. What is certain is that it heated my house and it didn't burn any oil!

I did have an interesting experience this morning.  When I opened the loading door initially, I got a splash of WATER at my feet.  I mean legitimate water.  It was black and smelly, so I know it was from the combustion chamber.  It got all over the front of the unit.  I cleaned it all up.  I have a feeling these 24" lengths of oak just aren't seasoned fully.

ac


----------



## muncybob

ac, that's the reason I let oak season for 2+ years. We had a fire going outdoors late summer during a small party and I decided to throw in a few oak splits that were probably 1.5 yrs seasoned...just about put the fire out!

I used my cycle timer last night for the first time this year since the night before I woke at about 4am with a chill I just could not shake. It was nice to have a 70+ degree house 1st thing in the morning and instant hot water...not that it was a big deal before as I have several "chores" to do 1st thing in the a.m. that allow the WG to get me hot water when I need it. The trick to me in order to find the sweet spot on the timer is to be sure there is a nice bed of coals to begin with and a roaring fire going...then I engage the cycle timer to give that first burn run at about 30 minutes out...it's then on 1 clip every 60 minutes from that point. Soon this will be a mute point as the nights and days will be getting cold enough not to use the timer.


----------



## avc8130

muncybob said:


> ac, that's the reason I let oak season for 2+ years. We had a fire going outdoors late summer during a small party and I decided to throw in a few oak splits that were probably 1.5 yrs seasoned...just about put the fire out!
> 
> I used my cycle timer last night for the first time this year since the night before I woke at about 4am with a chill I just could not shake. It was nice to have a 70+ degree house 1st thing in the morning and instant hot water...not that it was a big deal before as I have several "chores" to do 1st thing in the a.m. that allow the WG to get me hot water when I need it. The trick to me in order to find the sweet spot on the timer is to be sure there is a nice bed of coals to begin with and a roaring fire going...then I engage the cycle timer to give that first burn run at about 30 minutes out...it's then on 1 clip every 60 minutes from that point. Soon this will be a mute point as the nights and days will be getting cold enough not to use the timer.


 
Yeah, this oak is 2 years old...but apparently I'm going to mark the rest of it for 2013/2014 winter.

Really?  Just 1 clip?  That is only ~2 mins of running.  I guess that would be sufficient since when I use the purge the fire is usually fully engaged again within 1-2 minutes. 

Are you rotating the dial to put the next clip ~30 mins out after you reload?

ac


----------



## maple1

It's getting colder here (-12c when I got up this morning, not getting above freezing in the daytime), but I'm still only burning in the evenings although starting a bit earlier the last couple days (just before supper vs. just after). Last evening I put around 2-1/2 not-full firebox loads through, last 1/2 was on the way to bed at 10pm. When I checked things this morning at 7:30, my top of storage was still over 180f - lots to keep the house warm until this evening again. I need to start from scratch every day with the fire building unlike you guys with the elves/gremlins & cycle timers, but I absolutely love the warm house when getting up, and not needing to feed the boiler first thing in the morning or even all day until the evening. Storage changes everything - even more than gassification does.


----------



## avc8130

maple1 said:


> It's getting colder here (-12c when I got up this morning, not getting above freezing in the daytime), but I'm still only burning in the evenings although starting a bit earlier the last couple days (just before supper vs. just after). Last evening I put around 2-1/2 not-full firebox loads through, last 1/2 was on the way to bed at 10pm. When I checked things this morning at 7:30, my top of storage was still over 180f - lots to keep the house warm until this evening again. I need to start from scratch every day with the fire building unlike you guys with the elves/gremlins & cycle timers, but I absolutely love the warm house when getting up, and not needing to feed the boiler first thing in the morning or even all day until the evening. Storage changes everything - even more than gassification does.


 

That sounds nice.  However, right now I touch the boiler twice/day.  Really.  Once in the morning and once in the evening.  Roughly 12 hours apart.  I really don't find this difficult.  Storage would cost me ANOTHER ~$2k+.  That just extends the pay back even further.  This WG is working without storage.  It is working just fine to me so far.  I have been burning 8 1/2 days and I couldn't be happier.

ac


----------



## maple1

That's great to hear too.

I'm just as happy as a pig in, well, you know, about how mine is doing too. Everyone has different preferences or priorities - for me, after the past years of living with late night & early morning stumbles to the fire to keep us warm, not having to worry about firing for basically a whole day is big. I think I could also get through a couple of days with no one home with everything heated up before I left.


----------



## avc8130

maple1 said:


> That's great to hear too.
> 
> I'm just as happy as a pig in, well, you know, about how mine is doing too. Everyone has different preferences or priorities - for me, after the past years of living with late night & early morning stumbles to the fire to keep us warm, not having to worry about firing for basically a whole day is big. I think I could also get through a couple of days with no one home with everything heated up before I left.


 
Being able to leave for a few days without having to worry about loading would be nice, but again, $2k+ for the storage setup buys a LOT of oil for use in a backup sense.

ac


----------



## Gasifier

I keep forgetting that AC has some other things I have to remember. First. A Wood Gun that is big enough to heat 2-1/2 times what he is heating right now.  Yea baby! And the size and insulation of his house.

I have a 400 gallon buffer tank, as they like to call it. And I am keeping my eye open for another inexpensive air reciever tank to add to it. This time I will need something that is easier to move into the cellar and will not require me to cut through the concrete floor and pour concrete base and walls, etc, etc. I still can't believe I did all that. But it was fun and the tank is working great. I have my eye on a 200 gallon tank that would go into the basement easy enough. It would be nice to have 1/2 again what I do now. And then I would still have room to add another one beside it.


----------



## avc8130

Gasifier said:


> I keep forgetting that AC has some other things I have to remember. First. A Wood Gun that is big enough to heat 2-1/2 times what he is heating right now.  Yea baby! And the size and insulation of his house.
> 
> I have a 400 gallon buffer tank, as they like to call it. And I am keeping my eye open for another inexpensive air reciever tank to add to it. This time I will need something that is easier to move into the cellar and will not require me to cut through the concrete floor and pour concrete base and walls, etc, etc. I still can't believe I did all that. But it was fun and the tank is working great. I have my eye on a 200 gallon tank that would go into the basement easy enough. It would be nice to have 1/2 again what I do now. And then I would still have room to add another one beside it.


 
I'm having my doubts about WGs btu claims.  I would say I have been filling the WG up to about even with the loading door lately when the nights are in the 20s.  That gets me ~12 hours.  With my 24" splits, the load is pretty even and packed.  When it gets down to ~10F I'm not sure this WG would be able to heat 2.5x my house for 12 hours. 

What is a "full" load by definition?  Is it all you can stand to jam in there?  If so, then I am probably at 1/3-1/2 capacity right now?

I have been meaning to ask you about your 400 gallon "buffer".  What is that affording you?  Did you run your gun without it at all?

With my baseboard heat, my delta T is very small relatively speaking.  I could probably push storage to ~190F and it would really only be usable to ~150F.  I wouldn't want to get below 130/140F for fear of condensing when I go to recharge, not to mention that low would actually cool my indirect hot water heater. 

Storage is not out of the question for me, but I have to experience a whole year before I go crazy.  I started pricing things out.  Expansion would probably cost ~$500/500 gallons?  Another pump: $100.  Zone valve/controls: $2-300?  Plus tank(s), insulation and plumbing.  I see $2k-$3k easy.

ac


----------



## maple1

I'm thinking just by reading what you posted above about your oak that you'd see quite an improvement on what your unit could heat if the wood was drier? I know when I grab some pieces from the pile that aren't as dry as others, it sure makes a difference in heat output.

Just one more on the storage - everyones mileage will differ depending on their local sourcing potentials & current system layout, but I think the storage part of mine 'only' amounted to about an extra $1k. Major components were boiler ~ $5500, laddomat ~ $650, propane tanks ~ $800 (including one for an expansion tank), welding ~ $200. The rest of the necessary controls, pumping, etc. to use storage my system already had. Piping & fittings to tie everything else together, plus the electric boiler & new electric hot water tank etc. remain to be totalled - I'm kinda scared to do that.


----------



## muncybob

avc8130 said:


> Yeah, this oak is 2 years old...but apparently I'm going to mark the rest of it for 2013/2014 winter.
> 
> Really? Just 1 clip? That is only ~2 mins of running. I guess that would be sufficient since when I use the purge the fire is usually fully engaged again within 1-2 minutes.
> 
> Are you rotating the dial to put the next clip ~30 mins out after you reload?
> 
> ac


 
Yes, I turn the dial so the next clip will run the WG in 30 minutes...then it's on it's own every hour with 1 clip.

I would LOVE to have storage(buffer) just for the convenienvce in the shoulder seasons to load up and burn all out once every other day or so, but as mentioned it's a lot of money and space needed  to do this and I really don't mind visiting the WG twice a day since it's in my basement and usually very toasty down there   I would suggest anybody using a WG go through at least 1 full season before adding storage...I'm glad I did.

As for what a full load is, I think this is a different amount of wood for everybody. As an example, prior to this year I was still using the smoke shield and this would allow me to only load about 6 to 8 splits(depending on their size). Now that I have removed the shield and am using the smoke hood I can load alot more although I have not yet done that since I have not had the demand, but I'm guessing I can probably fit about 12 to 14 splits in there. I'm not convinced yet that I will ever do this as it seems to me that I will be inviting "bridging"...we'll see soon enough I guess.


----------



## avc8130

maple1 said:


> I'm thinking just by reading what you posted above about your oak that you'd see quite an improvement on what your unit could heat if the wood was drier? I know when I grab some pieces from the pile that aren't as dry as others, it sure makes a difference in heat output.
> 
> Just one more on the storage - everyones mileage will differ depending on their local sourcing potentials & current system layout, but I think the storage part of mine 'only' amounted to about an extra $1k. Major components were boiler ~ $5500, laddomat ~ $650, propane tanks ~ $800 (including one for an expansion tank), welding ~ $200. The rest of the necessary controls, pumping, etc. to use storage my system already had. Piping & fittings to tie everything else together, plus the electric boiler & new electric hot water tank etc. remain to be totalled - I'm kinda scared to do that.


 
Your 400 gallon storage would buy me ~132k usable btus based on 50 degree usable drop. That would be ~5 hours based on my calculated heat loss. 

So you don't use a bladder style tank for your expansion on your storage?

I'm keeping my eyes open for tanks that could be used for storage. If I could piece it together cheap enough, I'll jump on it.

ac


----------



## avc8130

muncybob said:


> Yes, I turn the dial so the next clip will run the WG in 30 minutes...then it's on it's own every hour with 1 clip.
> 
> I would LOVE to have storage(buffer) just for the convenienvce in the shoulder seasons to load up and burn all out once every other day or so, but as mentioned it's a lot of money and space needed to do this and I really don't mind visiting the WG twice a day since it's in my basement and usually very toasty down there  I would suggest anybody using a WG go through at least 1 full season before adding storage...I'm glad I did.
> 
> As for what a full load is, I think this is a different amount of wood for everybody. As an example, prior to this year I was still using the smoke shield and this would allow me to only load about 6 to 8 splits(depending on their size). Now that I have removed the shield and am using the smoke hood I can load alot more although I have not yet done that since I have not had the demand, but I'm guessing I can probably fit about 12 to 14 splits in there. I'm not convinced yet that I will ever do this as it seems to me that I will be inviting "bridging"...we'll see soon enough I guess.


 

I have the smoke shield.  I haven't come even close to it limiting my ability to load yet.  My 180 will suck down 12-14 6" backbone splits easily before it even gets to the bottom of the door. 

Honestly, with regards to smoke spillage, it really isn't THAT bad since I generally have been coming across the boiler with just coals in it.  I think a lot of guys just load the boiler too often.

ac


----------



## maple1

avc8130 said:


> Your 400 gallon storage would buy me ~132k usable btus based on 50 degree usable drop. That would be ~5 hours based on my calculated heat loss.
> 
> So you don't use a bladder style tank for your expansion on your storage?
> 
> I'm keeping my eyes open for tanks that could be used for storage. If I could piece it together cheap enough, I'll jump on it.
> 
> ac


 
I've got 660 gallons storage between two tanks.

No bladder expansion tank - just using a 110 gallon propane tank standing on the floor. It seems to be doing OK so far, but I put it in with the possibility I might have to get a bladder tank if it didn't work out. I had/have visions of the water 'soaking up' the air and the tank gradually water logging over time - but so far so good. I am running quite a low system pressure. It's about 10psi on the low side, gets up to 13-15psi max at full temps.


----------



## avc8130

maple1 said:


> I've got 660 gallons storage between two tanks.
> 
> No bladder expansion tank - just using a 110 gallon propane tank standing on the floor. It seems to be doing OK so far, but I put it in with the possibility I might have to get a bladder tank if it didn't work out. I had/have visions of the water 'soaking up' the air and the tank gradually water logging over time - but so far so good. I am running quite a low system pressure. It's about 10psi on the low side, gets up to 13-15psi max at full temps.


 
Your 110 gallon tank is on the same level as your storage?  Or is it above? 

You have just one connection on it at the bottom? 

ac


----------



## maple1

Bottom of 110 gallon expansion tank is about the same level as bottom of storage, a couple inches above floor level. I would have raised it up if I could have, but couldn't at the time. Next summer I will be removing my oil tank, that might free up the space to do more with it. Connection at bottom of expansion to main return manifold yes, just upstream from my load circ. I also have a couple of holes on the top of it, one with a pressure guage, & one that holds the top of a fluid level tube, a snifter valve, and ball valve to open for draining or whatever. There's a couple pics of it in my install thread if you can wade thru all the other pics, not sure now how much of it they show.


----------



## Gasifier

avc8130 said:


> I'm having my doubts about WGs btu claims. I would say I have been filling the WG up to about even with the loading door lately when the nights are in the 20s. That gets me ~12 hours. With my 24" splits, the load is pretty even and packed. When it gets down to ~10F I'm not sure this WG would be able to heat 2.5x my house for 12 hours.
> 
> What is a "full" load by definition? Is it all you can stand to jam in there? If so, then I am probably at 1/3-1/2 capacity right now?
> 
> I have been meaning to ask you about your 400 gallon "buffer". What is that affording you? Did you run your gun without it at all?
> 
> With my baseboard heat, my delta T is very small relatively speaking. I could probably push storage to ~190F and it would really only be usable to ~150F. I wouldn't want to get below 130/140F for fear of condensing when I go to recharge, not to mention that low would actually cool my indirect hot water heater.
> 
> Storage is not out of the question for me, but I have to experience a whole year before I go crazy. I started pricing things out. Expansion would probably cost ~$500/500 gallons? Another pump: $100. Zone valve/controls: $2-300? Plus tank(s), insulation and plumbing. I see $2k-$3k easy.
> 
> ac


 
I do not have any doubts about the WGs btu claim. Once you get use to it and you are burning nothing but dry wood that thing will heat your house and the other load you were talking about adding on in the future. No problem in my opinion. Obviously there are a lot of variables. Insulation, wood quality, etc. etc.

When things start getting really cold, which we did not have hardly any of last year, I will fill the Wood Gun about three quarters full. It has no problem going over eight hours and the tank will get me a few more hours on top of that. I am not exactly sure what the buffer is affording me. Never did the calculations. I never did run the Gun without it. I knew I wanted some storage, and installed what I could afford at the time. But I knew I wanted to heat my hot water as long as I could. And having the buffer has resulted in me heating our DHW year round. One short fire a day after it gets warm out. No oil year round now.

I have baseboard as well. And radiant in the slab in the garage. My storage usually gets to about 185-187ish. The baseboard will still put out heat below 150. Not as much, but it will put out some heat. If you send water through a zone with a temperature of 140 degrees, and the water that was in that zone was down to room temperature of 70, you will get some heat out of it.

I guess the storage added about $1100 to the system. I found the tank for just over $600 and another couple hundred to get it delivered to the house. So I think about $850 or so. Then another pump was required and some more 1-1/2 copper pipe. Ouch! But worth every penny in the end. No oil year round now. Did I say that already.


----------



## avc8130

Gasifier said:


> I do not have any doubts about the WGs btu claim. Once you get use to it and you are burning nothing but dry wood that thing will heat your house and the other load you were talking about adding on in the future. No problem in my opinion. Obviously there are a lot of variables. Insulation, wood quality, etc. etc.
> 
> When things start getting really cold, which we did not have hardly any of last year, I will fill the Wood Gun about three quarters full. It has no problem going over eight hours and the tank will get me a few more hours on top of that. I am not exactly sure what the buffer is affording me. Never did the calculations. I never did run the Gun without it. I knew I wanted some storage, and installed what I could afford at the time. But I knew I wanted to heat my hot water as long as I could. And having the buffer has resulted in me heating our DHW year round. One short fire a day after it gets warm out. No oil year round now.
> 
> I have baseboard as well. And radiant in the slab in the garage. My storage usually gets to about 185-187ish. The baseboard will still put out heat below 150. Not as much, but it will put out some heat. If you send water through a zone with a temperature of 140 degrees, and the water that was in that zone was down to room temperature of 70, you will get some heat out of it.
> 
> I guess the storage added about $1100 to the system. I found the tank for just over $600 and another couple hundred to get it delivered to the house. So I think about $850 or so. Then another pump was required and some more 1-1/2 copper pipe. Ouch! But worth every penny in the end. No oil year round now. Did I say that already.


 
What is "3/4 full"?  Does that mean 3/4 of the way up the firebox, full side to side and front to back?

With your storage, you should be able to calculate exactly the output of your WG.  Would be a neat science experiment.  

How do you heat hot water?  Indirect?  I couldn't imagine firing this thing in my basement in the summer.  My basement is easily 80F with this thing running.  I PAY to cool my house in the summer.  I'll let the electric hot water heater handle it for now at ~$25/month.

Does your $110 include the insulation?  $850: tank, pump, aquastat: $200, I see that $1100 estimate flying out the window pretty quickly.  400 gallons of storage has to have quite a bit more expansion tank than just your normal system...big expansion seems to be quite costly.

If all the storage afforded me was no more electric for hot water, that would be ~44 month pay back assuming the wood burned is "free".  I plan to use the electric for ~6 months of the year.  Pay back in ~7 years.  Not too terrible.  Right about when my hot water heater should be taking a dump according to the warranty...

I'll keep my eyes out.  Like I said.  I'm not opposed to adding storage, but it just needs to be the right deal.  

ac


----------



## Gasifier

What is "3/4 full"? Does that mean 3/4 of the way up the firebox, full side to side and front to back?

Yes. Pretty much.

With your storage, you should be able to calculate exactly the output of your WG. Would be a neat science experiment.

Not necessary. It puts out a lot of heat. And it is hot. Happy with it.
How do you heat hot water? Indirect? I couldn't imagine firing this thing in my basement in the summer. My basement is easily 80F with this thing running. I PAY to cool my house in the summer. I'll let the electric hot water heater handle it for now at ~$25/month.

Yes. Indirect. I seperate the basement with a door. Then put a small fan in the window to draw heat outside. It only runs for a short time each day. Tank is pretty well insulated.

Does your $110 include the insulation? $850: tank, pump, aquastat: $200, I see that $1100 estimate flying out the window pretty quickly. 400 gallons of storage has to have quite a bit more expansion tank than just your normal system...big expansion seems to be quite costly.

No. Add in another $279 for insulation. Tank, pump, aqua. You are correct. Eeehh. Minor. Okay. Call it what? $15-1600. When you add storage to your system and run it for a year, you will understand how nice it is to have. I am sure things will work fine for you this year as well. Already are.

If all the storage afforded me was no more electric for hot water, that would be ~44 month pay back assuming the wood burned is "free". I plan to use the electric for ~6 months of the year. Pay back in ~7 years. Not too terrible. Right about when my hot water heater should be taking a dump according to the warranty...

To each, his own.

I'll keep my eyes out. Like I said. I'm not opposed to adding storage, but it just needs to be the right deal.

Take your time. Storage is expensive. But worth it. If and when you go for it, try to put as much in as possible. This will give you more flexability.

ac[/quote]


----------



## avc8130

I'm still trying to figure out how your 400 gallons works out. 

Do you burn your entire wood load to get the 400 gallons to full temp and then heat off of it for 5 hours and then burn again? 

Or do you burn and max the storage out, then the boiler idles for an extended period of time while your house draws from storage and then tries to re-ignite?

I'm not trying to be a jerk or discount your storage.  I am just trying to learn.  It seems most guys around here say 1000 gallons or don't even bother.  I'm curious how your 400 "works".

The engineer in me likes science experiments.  I'd be weighing wood, taking moisture readings, timing burns and monitoring temps.  I don't know why, just can't help myself.  LOL

ac


----------



## Gasifier

I'm still trying to figure out how your 400 gallons works out.

It works the same as 1000 gallons of storage. Helps to store energy and puts that energy as it is called for. And works as a "buffer" for the boiler. It works beautifully really. Because there are times when there is demand from zones and the boiler is still heating up. Again, lots of variables, but you get the point.

Do you burn your entire wood load to get the 400 gallons to full temp and then heat off of it for 5 hours and then burn again?

No. It does not take an entire load to heat the tank up. Of course everything depends on what demand the zones are calling for at the time. If there is no call from zones it does not take anywhere near a full load to heat the tank all the way through.

Or do you burn and max the storage out, then the boiler idles for an extended period of time while your house draws from storage and then tries to re-ignite?

Yes. This is the way it works. The cirulation pump that is for the primary loop is just above the line that goes from the boiler to the tank. So if the circulation pump is on between boiler and tank then when the circulation pump for the primary loop is on above that, it is drawing most of it's feed from the boiler. If the circulation pump between the boiler and the tank is not on, then the primary loop circulation pump is drawing most of it's feed from the tank. 

I'm not trying to be a jerk or discount your storage. I am just trying to learn. It seems most guys around here say 1000 gallons or don't even bother. I'm curious how your 400 "works".

Like I said. To each his own. I find that it works great. When things are really cold it helps the whole system out by being a buffer. And when things are not very cold it allows me to burn the boiler flat out until the 400 gallons is heated all the way through, then shut the boiler down and let the tank take care of the small demand from hot water and a little heat to house. I do not understand why some people would think that does not work. Works great.

The engineer in me likes science experiments. I'd be weighing wood, taking moisture readings, timing burns and monitoring temps. I don't know why, just can't help myself. LOL

 I understand and have respect for the tweaking that some of you guys do. I have done some work for engineers and designers in the past. Have a two year technical degree in Civil Engineering, and a four year degree in Vocational/Technical education. But I do not weigh wood. I do take moisture readings every so often. I do not time burns. I monitor temps in boiler and tank by looking at thermometers on each and say, "Yup, they are hot". Or, "Nope, not hot." Sometimes Engineers, and wood burners, can make things more complicated than need be. Besides going through the learning curve of split sizes and dry enough wood, and paying attention to things. I put wood into the boiler and it heats the house. Pretty simple, and pretty nice. This leaves me with time to do a lot of other things I have to do. Very important.


----------



## muncybob

Gas, have to agree 100% with your last statement. I'll leave all the science projects to those that enjoy that sort of thing and have the $$ to do so. I'm just happy to have a warm house and endless DHW each day...but I do enjoy reading about the engineer types out there that tinker with their boilers.


----------



## avc8130

muncybob said:


> Gas, have to agree 100% with your last statement. I'll leave all the science projects to those that enjoy that sort of thing and have the $$ to do so. I'm just happy to have a warm house and endless DHW each day...but I do enjoy reading about the engineer types out there that tinker with their boilers.


 
Oh trust me, I don't spend that much time with it.  In fact, I bet I spend more time on this forum talking ABOUT my boiler than I do actually RUNNING it in a given day!  LOL

ac


----------



## BravoWhiskey

> I'm still trying to figure out how your 400 gallons works out.





> It works the same as 1000 gallons of storage. Helps to store energy and puts that energy as it is called for. And works as a "buffer" for the boiler. It works beautifully really. Because there are times when there is demand from zones and the boiler is still heating up. Again, lots of variables, but you get the point.



Wood Gun plus a buffer big enough to go an hour or two is sounding more and more like the way to go. Buffer prevents short cycling and firebox provides the storage in the form of wood ready to burn. I'm not so sure I'm willing to give up enough indoor space to make room for a 1000 gallon tank plus insulation.


----------



## avc8130

BravoWhiskey said:


> Wood Gun plus a buffer big enough to go an hour or two is sounding more and more like the way to go. Buffer prevents short cycling and firebox provides the storage in the form of wood ready to burn. I'm not so sure I'm willing to give up enough indoor space to make room for a 1000 gallon tank plus insulation.


 
I have no first hand experience with a buffer...but I have trouble wrapping my head around it.  "wood ready to burn" is just sitting in the boiler idling.  Drying out.  Getting ready to puff or chug.  Then there is also the possibility of losing the fire.  

To me it would seem that either letting the Wood Gun "do its thing" turning on and off frequently OR having enough storage to burn full out and carry for the desired time (8+ hours) would seem better.

Again, no firsthand experience with a buffer.  Gasifier is living and posting proof it "works".

ac


----------



## Gasifier

BravoWhiskey said:


> Wood Gun plus a buffer big enough to go an hour or two is sounding more and more like the way to go. Buffer prevents short cycling and firebox provides the storage in the form of wood ready to burn. I'm not so sure I'm willing to give up enough indoor space to make room for a 1000 gallon tank plus insulation.


 
Space is one of the advantages of a vertical tank. My tank with it's insulation takes up about 46" max. I think the tank is 36" and the max insulation is about 5" thick at the top. At some point I hope to apply one more tank of that spray foam to the tank so that I can even it out at 5-6 inches from top to bottom. Another $279.  Looks like I will have to find another little side job and make a few extra bucks. Hmmm. Maybe I could sell some of the wood that I have that has been c/s/s outside for over a year? Naaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh!


----------



## avc8130

Gasifier said:


> Space is one of the advantages of a vertical tank. My tank with it's insulation takes up about 46" max. I think the tank is 36" and the max insulation is about 5" thick at the top. At some point I hope to apply one more tank of that spray foam to the tank so that I can even it out at 5-6 inches from top to bottom. Another $279.  Looks like I will have to find another little side job and make a few extra bucks. Hmmm. Maybe I could sell some of the wood that I have that has been c/s/s outside for over a year? Naaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh!


 
I think the coolest part of your install is that you "sunk" the floor to get the tank in.  You really minimized the space your storage occupies. 

ac


----------



## Woodsrover

I can see the advantages of having storage, but for me, at least this time of year, wouldn't really pay off. I load the firebox about 3/4 full at 6:00am. I load it again somewhere between 6:00-8:00pm and there are still a few logs left each time and everything is warm. My wood is cut on my own land and between the storms over the past year and a half and what I want to cut down anyway, I have more wood than I'll ever burn. I also have piles of both hard and softwood slabs from the sawmill if that isn't enough. The cycle timer keeps me from having to relight the fire and my Gun is becoming almost as thoughtless as brushing my teeth or feeding the dogs. It takes a moment or two of my time twice a day and that's about it. Clean the ash pan twice a week and the lower chambers once a week and forget about it. I too admire the guys that like to play with everything but after a month of figuring out how to burn this boiler in a way that works for me, its become inconspicuous...just another appliance that does its job. Don't get me wrong, I love bragging about it and how well it does its job, but it doesn't require a whole lot of attention once I got it figured out.

And talking about the chugging you guys get sometimes; I've never experienced it normally but I have a really good fire going right now as I just loaded it, turned up the heat and bathed the little one. If I open the hatch on the back of the intake I get a good chug, chug, chug, but close the door and it goes away completely. I have my fresh air intake coming from outside with about three feet of pipe. With that I never get it without opening that trap door.


----------



## avc8130

Woodsrover said:


> I can see the advantages of having storage, but for me, at least this time of year, wouldn't really pay off. I load the firebox about 3/4 full at 6:00am. I load it again somewhere between 6:00-8:00pm and there are still a few logs left each time and everything is warm. My wood is cut on my own land and between the storms over the past year and a half and what I want to cut down anyway, I have more wood than I'll ever burn. I also have piles of both hard and softwood slabs from the sawmill if that isn't enough. The cycle timer keeps me from having to relight the fire and my Gun is becoming almost as thoughtless as brushing my teeth or feeding the dogs. It takes a moment or two of my time twice a day and that's about it. Clean the ash pan twice a week and the lower chambers once a week and forget about it. I too admire the guys that like to play with everything but after a month of figuring out how to burn this boiler in a way that works for me, its become inconspicuous...just another appliance that does its job. Don't get me wrong, I love bragging about it and how well it does its job, but it doesn't require a whole lot of attention once I got it figured out.
> 
> And talking about the chugging you guys get sometimes; I've never experienced it normally but I have a really good fire going right now as I just loaded it, turned up the heat and bathed the little one. If I open the hatch on the back of the intake I get a good chug, chug, chug, but close the door and it goes away completely. I have my fresh air intake coming from outside with about three feet of pipe. With that I never get it without opening that trap door.


 

I couldn't agree more.  In just a short week I have already learned to open the boiler and put wood in it twice/day.  I have yet to have a cold house. 

I have been considering ducting my intake outside.  Does yours go down to the floor and then back up?

ac


----------



## Gasifier

avc8130 said:


> I think the coolest part of your install is that you "sunk" the floor to get the tank in. You really minimized the space your storage occupies.
> 
> ac


 
I can not believe I did all that work.  I must be out of my _ _ _ _ ing mind. But I had been looking and looking for a tank I could afford and I jumped on it when I found one. Before I bought it I remember trying to rationalized it  of how I was going to make the thing fit. One of the things I thought of was if it ever sprung a leak the "hole in the floor" that I made for it would hold a lot of the water! But, doing all the work myself was cool. It only cost me the materials, a lot of sweat, and some time. Ohhhhhh, the rationalizing I went through justifying this system!


----------



## Gasifier

Woodsrover said:


> I can see the advantages of having storage, but for me, at least this time of year, wouldn't really pay off. I load the firebox about 3/4 full at 6:00am. I load it again somewhere between 6:00-8:00pm and there are still a few logs left each time and everything is warm. My wood is cut on my own land and between the storms over the past year and a half and what I want to cut down anyway, I have more wood than I'll ever burn. I also have piles of both hard and softwood slabs from the sawmill if that isn't enough. The cycle timer keeps me from having to relight the fire and my Gun is becoming almost as thoughtless as brushing my teeth or feeding the dogs. It takes a moment or two of my time twice a day and that's about it. Clean the ash pan twice a week and the lower chambers once a week and forget about it. I too admire the guys that like to play with everything but after a month of figuring out how to burn this boiler in a way that works for me, its become inconspicuous...just another appliance that does its job. Don't get me wrong, I love bragging about it and how well it does its job, but it doesn't require a whole lot of attention once I got it figured out.
> 
> And talking about the chugging you guys get sometimes; I've never experienced it normally but I have a really good fire going right now as I just loaded it, turned up the heat and bathed the little one. If I open the hatch on the back of the intake I get a good chug, chug, chug, but close the door and it goes away completely. I have my fresh air intake coming from outside with about three feet of pipe. With that I never get it without opening that trap door.


 
One nice thing about the buffer tank, as you have probably already heard me brag about, is the same that any storage can do for your system. I have an indirect hot water heater and being able to use the buffer tank anytime of the year to hold energy to heat the DHW is a plus. I have been through 30-40 gallons of oil or so in 14 months now. Very cool. I think back to the days before I started heating the house with a wood stove, and now my boiler system, and remember going through anywhere from 1200-1500 gallons a year!


----------



## Woodsrover

avc8130 said:


> I have been considering ducting my intake outside. Does yours go down to the floor and then back up?
> 
> ac


 
Nope.  Just straight over and out.  I talked to my plumber-buddy about that...He has installed a few of these including mine and his own, and services a bunch of others.  He told me, and he's probably right, that everything coming together in just the right way to cause this fire to start burning backwards is almost impossible and probably not worrying about.


----------



## Woodsrover

Gasifier said:


> One nice thing about the buffer tank, as you have probably already heard me brag about, is the same that any storage can do for your system. I have an indirect hot water heater and being able to use the buffer tank anytime of the year to hold energy to heat the DHW is a plus. I have been through 30-40 gallons of oil or so in 14 months now. Very cool. I think back to the days before I started heating the house with a wood stove, and now my boiler system, and remember going through anywhere from 1200-1500 gallons a year!


 
I can totally understand that.  And if I had more room in my basement I'd probably do the same.  I've also considered finding an old 1000 gallon propane tank and burying it ouside and packing foam around it.  Still might do that if I find an old tank.  But without storage I think I'm still going to burn all summer next year.  With the cycle timer I won't have to give it anymore thought than I do right now and like I've said, I have the wood...Might as well burn it.

I also have plans to installing radiant heat under my 24'x24' deck next year.  Even in the summer the nights can get a little chilly and being able to have some warm air coming up between the deck boards will make it cozy out there and extend the outside season by a couple months.  My wife thought I was crazy until she thought about it for a while.  Nice October evening, 45-degrees outside but we can still hang on the deck 'cause its heated!  Hahaha.  Can't wait to do that!


----------



## avc8130

Woodsrover said:


> I can totally understand that. And if I had more room in my basement I'd probably do the same. I've also considered finding an old 1000 gallon propane tank and burying it ouside and packing foam around it. Still might do that if I find an old tank. But without storage I think I'm still going to burn all summer next year. With the cycle timer I won't have to give it anymore thought than I do right now and like I've said, I have the wood...Might as well burn it.
> 
> I also have plans to installing radiant heat under my 24'x24' deck next year. Even in the summer the nights can get a little chilly and being able to have some warm air coming up between the deck boards will make it cozy out there and extend the outside season by a couple months. My wife thought I was crazy until she thought about it for a while. Nice October evening, 45-degrees outside but we can still hang on the deck 'cause its heated! Hahaha. Can't wait to do that!


 
Is your Wood Gun in your basement? I couldn't imagine having this hot monster burning in my basement during the cooling season.

I might just pipe mine out when I finish my smokehood and have to pipe that anyways.

That deck idea sounds insane. You'll have to share the details if you do it!

ac


----------



## Gasifier

Woodsrover said:


> I can totally understand that. And if I had more room in my basement I'd probably do the same. I've also considered finding an old 1000 gallon propane tank and burying it ouside and packing foam around it. Still might do that if I find an old tank. But without storage I think I'm still going to burn all summer next year. With the cycle timer I won't have to give it anymore thought than I do right now and like I've said, I have the wood...Might as well burn it.
> 
> I also have plans to installing radiant heat under my 24'x24' deck next year. Even in the summer the nights can get a little chilly and being able to have some warm air coming up between the deck boards will make it cozy out there and extend the outside season by a couple months. My wife thought I was crazy until she thought about it for a while. Nice October evening, 45-degrees outside but we can still hang on the deck 'cause its heated! Hahaha. Can't wait to do that!


 
Aaahhh. I don't know if doing any of those things are a good idea Woodsrover. Not trying to be negative here man. I always try to be the opposite. But want to be honest with you as well. You might want to discuss each of these with some other more knowledgable members from the boiler room in another thread.


----------



## avc8130

Learned a lesson:

Watch your purge timer!

Mine apparently got "stuck" and was causing the boiler to fire to the high limit constantly.  I turned it back to "off", but now it won't hold any position and just springs back to off. 

ac


----------



## muncybob

ac, I had that happen to us early on. My practice is now to turn the dial past the 6 minute point, then manually turn it back to the 3 minute setting and be sure to listen for the ticking. Sometimes we even have to tap on the box to get it to start ticking. Fortunately for you they are cheap enough to buy if the warranty does not cover it.


----------



## avc8130

muncybob said:


> ac, I had that happen to us early on. My practice is now to turn the dial past the 6 minute point, then manually turn it back to the 3 minute setting and be sure to listen for the ticking. Sometimes we even have to tap on the box to get it to start ticking. Fortunately for you they are cheap enough to buy if the warranty does not cover it.


 
Yeah, I don't think there is any secret to getting this one to work again.  Something internal has failed.

I see they are $15 at Home Depot.  I put an email in to Darren at AHS to see what he says.

I might just replace it with a light switch. 

ac


----------



## muncybob

Woodsrover, you are going to need a seperate zone and filled with something like glycol. Cheaper and probably safer alternative is an infrared heater or a small outdoor fire pit if zoning allows it. We have a huge fire pit made of stones  found on our property over the years and get some great fires going, gotta love that country living. Nothing like a hot dog on a stick!


----------



## Gasifier

avc8130 said:


> Learned a lesson:
> 
> Watch your purge timer!
> 
> Mine apparently got "stuck" and was causing the boiler to fire to the high limit constantly. I turned it back to "off", but now it won't hold any position and just springs back to off.
> 
> ac


 
Yup. I do not leave my boiler if I use the purge timer. I only use it if I want to load the boiler before I go to work and it is not running. Mine started out sticking and then I would just tap on it like Bob said. But then it stopped working altogether. Not happy about that. But, all I need it for is to get that fan going and "purge" the system of gases and then load before I leave for work or go to bed. I am thinking of installing something else in place of the purge timer. Some type of new button that I can just push and it will run the boiler for a short time, say one minute. I think I am going to try to do this when I install the cycle timer. After I find out from AC and Mike how theirs are working.


----------



## avc8130

Gasifier said:


> Yup. I do not leave my boiler if I use the purge timer. I only use it if I want to load the boiler before I go to work and it is not running. Mine started out sticking and then I would just tap on it like Bob said. But then it stopped working altogether. Not happy about that. But, all I need it for is to get that fan going and "purge" the system of gases and then load before I leave for work or go to bed. I am thinking of installing something else in place of the purge timer. Some type of new button that I can just push and it will run the boiler for a short time, say one minute. I think I am going to try to do this when I install the cycle timer. After I find out from AC and Mike how theirs are working.


 
Agreed.  That is about the only time I use the purge timer, on the way to work when time is critical.  In the evening I just wait until I hear it running. 

I am leaning heavily towards a simple light switch to replace the purge timer.  Even if I forget to turn it back off, it will be no worse than the purge timer being stuck which seems common enough. 

The problem with shopping for a replacement is the short duration necessary.  Everything seems to be 15 mins or more.  I want something ~5 mins.

The cycle timer itself works.  Getting the settings "right" is the only variable.

Right now I have 3 pins every hour.  I rotate the timer to be 30 mins to next pin when I reload.

So far, so good.

ac


----------



## Woodsrover

muncybob said:


> Cheaper and probably safer alternative is an infrared heater or a small outdoor fire pit if zoning allows it. We have a huge fire pit made of stones found on our property over the years and get some great fires going, gotta love that country living. Nothing like a hot dog on a stick!


 
We don't worry too much about zoning 'round here.  We have a big chiminea that we burn all the time but it would be nice to have the whole deck heated.  We have a pretty small house and live out there all summer long.  It would be nice to start in March and stay out there through November.


----------



## avc8130

Woodsrover said:


> We don't worry too much about zoning 'round here. We have a big chiminea that we burn all the time but it would be nice to have the whole deck heated. We have a pretty small house and live out there all summer long. It would be nice to start in March and stay out there through November.


 
You could actually get away without antifreeze.  I assume the deck is higher than the boiler.  Just put a valve and drain cock on the supply and return and you can drain the loop each winter.  That would save the need for heat exchangers.  I would probably run the "deck" zone on a timer or similar so you can turn it on and it will automatically shut off so you don't forget and wind up adding to global warming all night.

ac


----------



## infinitymike

Man O man do  I HAVE A LOT OF READING TO DO!
You guys have been busy here.
I don't know what happened but I got left behind on page 17.
Ok gotta go and catch up . Wait for me guys. Don't leave me behind.


----------



## avc8130

Everyone post and run away from Mike!



infinitymike said:


> Man O man do I HAVE A LOT OF READING TO DO!
> You guys have been busy here.
> I don't know what happened but I got left behind on page 17.
> Ok gotta go and catch up . Wait for me guys. Don't leave me behind.


 
You've been too busy scrounging Sandy to concentrate on us mere boiler buddies.

ac


----------



## Gasifier

Mike. Have you been staring at your boiler again? Do you have a comfy chair out there that you fall asleep in?


----------



## Woodsrover

If only your Woodgun came with a window into the lower unit and a computer screen on the upper door.


----------



## avc8130

Woodsrover said:


> If only your Woodgun came with a window into the lower unit and a computer screen on the upper door.


 
I would LOVE a gassification view port!

ac


----------



## infinitymike

WHEW! I'm caught up.

Now don't do that again. I have abandonment issues!


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> WHEW! I'm caught up.
> 
> Now don't do that again. I have abandonment issues!


 
Welcome back to the fray!

ac


----------



## infinitymike

My engineering side of me wants to weigh wood and figure out all the btu's also but then the other side of me, the lazy side, says "ahh just stick some wood in and make the house warm"

So far my purge timer is still working.

I got my cycle timer Wednesday.
Amazing, I ordered it Sunday night and received it wednesday morning (total cost $90) Meanwhile my local electrical supply house wanted $180 and it would take 2 weeks.


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> My engineering side of me wants to weigh wood and figure out all the btu's also but then the other side of me, the lazy side, says "ahh just stick some wood in and make the house warm"
> 
> So far my purge timer is still working.
> 
> I got my cycle timer Wednesday.
> Amazing, I ordered it Sunday night and received it wednesday morning (total cost $90) Meanwhile my local electrical supply house wanted $180 and it would take 2 weeks.


 
Excellent! Now wire it in and start tuning.

I got some boiler "toys" too!

I picked up this ash bucket from Lowes. This will give me a quick spot to empty the cyclone into every few days.






I also got this monster plastic bin trash picking from a local industrial area. It holds about 4 days worth of wood and lets me skid it all from the doorway to the stove. Now I just take a rack and place it at the top of the hurricane doors and then pitch the wood straight into this bin. Push the bin next to the boiler and burn.





ac


----------



## avc8130

I realized the previous post was useless without pics of my "rack" system...
















Each holds ~1/4 cord.  Moving 1/2 cord has never been so easy. 

I have been amassing a collection of these.  I am up to ~30 so far.

ac


----------



## infinitymike

AC. You are the man. Put some wheels on that plastic bin and you'll be set. 
That is a sweet set up with the racks. 
If I could pick a cheap bobcat, I would do the same thing. 
And since mine is in the garage I could just drive right in
So for now I fill the rack next to the WG by bringing it in with a wheel barrow. 
20 splits at a time and about 8-9 trips depending on the split size. 
Speaking of split size, those look pretty damn big. They look like the size of the ones I had bridging with. 
Most of everythingelse I have is probably half that size. 
Real nice piece of property. What are you sitting on, a few acres?
I need to get off this sinking island. It is so damn congested I can't take it anymore.


----------



## muncybob

ac, you got it made man!!  Nice tractor/property and good use of it 4 sure.

I normally empty the cyclone ash outdoors due to the fine stuff that floats in the air, but since installing the smoke hood I can do it indoors now into something like you have there.


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> AC. You are the man. Put some wheels on that plastic bin and you'll be set.
> That is a sweet set up with the racks.
> If I could pick a cheap bobcat, I would do the same thing.
> And since mine is in the garage I could just drive right in
> So for now I fill the rack next to the WG by bringing it in with a wheel barrow.
> 20 splits at a time and about 8-9 trips depending on the split size.
> Speaking of split size, those look pretty damn big. They look like the size of the ones I had bridging with.
> Most of everythingelse I have is probably half that size.
> Real nice piece of property. What are you sitting on, a few acres?
> I need to get off this sinking island. It is so damn congested I can't take it anymore.


 
I think the lack of wheels is why the bin was in the dumpster.  I only have to slide it ~20', so I'll probably wait until after the burning season to tackle project mobility. 

Cheap and Bobcat don't go in the same sentence often.  I ran a Bobcat to move the boiler from the trailer to the basement (it was just outside the lifting capacity of the Kubota).  I also borrowed the Bobcat for a few weeks.  Having run it and my tractor, I would NEVER want a Bobcat instead of my tractor.

Those splits look BIG?  I hope you aren't talking about the ones in the plastic bin.  That bin is filled with absolute crap from a wooden bush thing I chopped up.  Burns like crap.  Those splits are ~2-4" from tip to back. I loaded the boiler up from the nozzles to the door and woke up to 120F boiler this morning.  This wood has no BTUs.

I had AWESOME results with 24" long, 6-8" from tip to back oak last week.  My boiler loved the bigger splits.  I had awesome coal beds and actually went ~16 hours on a load from nozzles to door.

We have ~13 acres.  My family lives on Long Island.  I can't stand it.  I don't know how you guys do it.  I am so impressed that you burn wood on the island!  I'm not surprised you get all of those offers for wood, no one on that island burns anything but LIPA gas.  Out by me, people shoot each other for firewood.  Every chimney's smoking on the way to work!

ac


----------



## avc8130

Since I'm such a tinker-er, my next thought is to attack my circulator pump setup.

Here is what I have:

My supply is 1.5" from the boiler.  There is a Tee that has 2 ports: 1 1/4" and 3/4". 
3/4": Indirect Hot Water.  This has a dedicated circulator pump and Tees off BEFORE the heating zones to make a "priority loop" for DHW demand.
1 1/4": Has a TACO 007 circulator and feeds 5 heating zones through 5 zone valves.

My return is 1.5" into the boiler.  The 3/4" DHW return feeds into the return first, then the 5 heating zones come in. 

I am thinking one of the more modern circulators to feed the zones might make the system as a whole more efficient. 

The question is: "which one?"

Grundfos Alpha:
ECM motor (supposedly much cheaper to run)
Delta P
~$160
I think this would adjust pump speed to maintain a consistent flow through the zones as the valves open/close based on pressure drop.

Taco Delta T:
Not ECM motor
Delta T control
~$160
I think this would adjust pump speed to maintain a consistent temperature drop from supply to return, adjusting speed as the zones open/close and the heating demand changes.  One of my concerns is that I can't get an accurate "return" temp without influence from the DHW return.  Would that be a problem?  Will this pump cost more than the Alpha to run since it isn't ECM?

Taco Viridian:
ECM Motor
Delta P
Price: Unknown

Does swapping the circulator to a modern one sound like a good idea?  If so, which one?

ac


----------



## infinitymike

avc8130 said:


> Since I'm such a tinker-er, my next thought is to attack my circulator pump setup.
> 
> Here is what I have:
> 
> BLA BLA BLA
> 
> Does swapping the circulator to a modern one sound like a good idea? If so, which one?
> 
> ac


 
Now you've just complicated the whole thread. 
I have no idea.

No seriously bro. I don't know, but hopefully someone will chime in.
But when you say "more effecient" what do you mean?
Cost of electric efficiency or flow rate of water efficiency?

Because if it's electrical, how long would it take to recoup the $160?


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> Now you've just complicated the whole thread.
> I have no idea.
> 
> No seriously bro. I don't know, but hopefully someone will chime in.
> But when you say "more effecient" what do you mean?
> Cost of electric efficiency or flow rate of water efficiency?
> 
> Because if it's electrical, how long would it take to recoup the $160?


 
I started another thread to try to figure this out.  

Electric:
Of course both manufacturers tout serious electrical savings.  Theoretically the pumps pay for themselves in a pretty short time.  Grundfos claims the average circ pump uses 550kwh/year and theirs uses 115kwh/year.  $.15/kwh?  $82 vs $17.  3-4 year payback?  That is pretty close to my break even on the Wood Gun and I don't have to bust my back to get the benefits of the circ pump...

Water:
Theoretically, if I went with a delta T pump, using my circulator aquastat, I would basically wind up with a low water temp protection system for the boiler.  Assuming my radiator zones were sized for 20F delta T, it would rock them at peak efficiency.  The theory with delta P is that the zones were designed for a 20F drop at a given flow rate.  Constant flow rate would keep them at peak efficiency also.

All of this is "theory" to me.

On a side note that is more related to the fun with the Wood Gun: the rack of wood I brought over now SUCKS.  I don't know what this crap is, but it has no BTUs.  I think I remember making this rack.  I think it is a bunch of branches and limbs from a rather large bush that went wooden that I cut down.  I must have thought it would make good shoulder wood.  Full up to the bottom of the door is good for ~8 hours and leave NO coals to speak of.  I can't wait for this rack to be over (I won't have to wait long, no way this 1/4 cord is lasting a week)!

ac


----------



## infinitymike

avc8130 said:


> You ready to wire that in?
> White:Clock
> Red: Switch/Common
> Blue: Normal Open
> 
> If that doesn't make sense, open the cover panel. Basically Switch/Normal parallels the purge circuit and Clock is neutral.
> 
> ac


So nothing goes on the Normal Closed?


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> So nothing goes on the Normal Closed?


 
Not unless you can think of something you'd like to open when the timer cycles.

ac


----------



## infinitymike

Soooooo, How's she burning?


----------



## Gasifier

infinitymike said:


> Soooooo, How's she burning?


 
He's staring at the boiler again. Ohhhh AC!


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> Soooooo, How's she burning?


 
She burns great! My wife actually took care of feeding her today.  I should name the boiler.  How about "Adena"?  Apparently it means fire.

I need to look into my cycle timer.  For some reason it is always seems like it is just after the 180 firing when I get back to it. 

I think I need to adjust my lower door.  I think that is where I am getting the smokey odor from.  Is there a particular way to check if it is out of adjustment?

ac


----------



## infinitymike

How about SERAFINA it means "burning one".

I'm not sure what you meant about your cycle timer.

Take a shim out of the latch. That should snug it up and take a measurement at the top and bottom hinge to see if they are parallel.


----------



## infinitymike

Gasifier said:


> He's staring at the boiler again. Ohhhh AC!


 
Is there something wrong with that?

I can see mine through my home office window which looks at the door to the garage and the WG is right there.
I stare at all the time.


----------



## Woodsrover

avc8130 said:


> I think I need to adjust my lower door. I think that is where I am getting the smokey odor from. Is there a particular way to check if it is out of adjustment?
> 
> ac


 
I've adjusted all three doors, added some packing in a void at the rear door, been over the stack 100 times, etc.  I think there's just a bit of an odor with these things that we have to live with.  No thrilled about it but its not so bad I can smell it above the basement.


----------



## Gasifier

infinitymike said:


> Is there something wrong with that?


 
No. Many people do it. As long as he is behaving himself.


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> How about SERAFINA it means "burning one".
> 
> I'm not sure what you meant about your cycle timer.
> 
> Take a shim out of the latch. That should snug it up and take a measurement at the top and bottom hinge to see if they are parallel.


 
For some reason the cycle timer is always just past the tripper at 180 when I get to it.  I'm starting to wonder if it is getting stuck there for some reason.

I'll pull the little shim tonight and take the measurement.  It is so warm outside, I'm going to do a full cleaning/inspection tonight.

ac


----------



## avc8130

I have noticed the boiler does smoke a lot when running.  I open the load door and can hear the roar of what I thought was gassification, but then if I go outside and look at the chimney it will be billowing grayish smoke.  Is that normal? 

ac


----------



## Gasifier

avc8130 said:


> I have noticed the boiler does smoke a lot when running. I open the load door and can hear the roar of what I thought was gassification, but then if I go outside and look at the chimney it will be billowing grayish smoke. Is that normal?
> 
> ac


 
You can have a blow through at one of the slots in the nozzle and this can let plenty of smoke out. It can be tough to always keep full gassification going. A nice deep bed of coals is a highly sought after state of burning.


----------



## avc8130

Gasifier said:


> You can have a blow through at one of the slots in the nozzle and this can let plenty of smoke out. It can be tough to always keep full gassification going. A nice deep bed of coals is a highly sought after state of burning.


 
Oh!  I better load more wood and stop running out!

I hadn't even thought of that.  So stupid!

ac


----------



## 711mhw

I've seen little puffs of smoke coming out of the center nut on that Honeywell air box "damper" if it's freshly & fully loaded  and  in the puffing stage.
(response to woodrover's # 480 post)


----------



## infinitymike

avc8130 said:


> I have noticed the boiler does smoke a lot when running. I open the load door and can hear the roar of what I thought was gassification, but then if I go outside and look at the chimney it will be billowing grayish smoke. Is that normal?
> 
> ac


 

I can get that same grey smoke billowing out. It seems to happen whenever I reload, even with a thick bed of coals. 
I can easily check my stack everytime I go outside to reload and or even from my breakfast room window. 
It does go away, but I'm still not sure how to prevent it.
I know the unit is up to temp because it has been burning for a while, it has a thick bed of coals and I just looked at the stack and saw nothing but heat shimmers.
Then I add 4 or 5 splits and whamo, I'm crop dusting the neighborhood !


----------



## avc8130

There isn't much "neighborhood" for me to worry about.  Enough guys around here running OWBs that any complaints would go to them first.

I'm having some trouble with my cycle timer.  It keeps stopping after it goes over the trippers.  I'm starting to wonder if I wired it wrong (would mean an error on AHS's schematic).

ac


----------



## infinitymike

Still having trouble with the timer?  I haven't wired mine yet so ill wait for you to figure out if its wrong. 
Darren suggested connecting it to a switch to be able to shut it off during the height of the heating season.


----------



## infinitymike

I still cant figure this thing out.  

The unit was off all day(from 7am) because we had temps in 60's.
Wife said It kicked on by itself at 4pm just to bring itself to temp.
It kicked itself back on a few minutes ago, again to bring itself to temp. There has been to house demand.
I go out to check on it and it's out. There is about an inch of charcoal and 3 charcoaled splits left.
I wave the torch over it for a few seconds and then load about 6 small splits in it.
Not an whisper of smoke out of the stack, there is a heavy roar and its gasifiying.

I'm starting think that too thick of a hot coal bed prevents gasification. Could this be possible?
usually when the coal bed is 4" or thicker I don't hear that thundering roar.
Maybe the gases can't get through the thick bed of coals and it smokes like a dragon.

Ahhhhh.... I don't know if that is true either,  there has been plenty of times when I have a thick bed of coals and don't hear the roar,  I reload and have no smoke out of the stack.


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> Still having trouble with the timer? I haven't wired mine yet so ill wait for you to figure out if its wrong.
> Darren suggested connecting it to a switch to be able to shut it off during the height of the heating season.


 
I confirmed the wiring with Darren and checked over everything again.  The wiring is so simple, you might as well just wire yours in and see how you do.  These past few days have really needed the cycle timer if you have your DHW hooked up!

Right now it looks like my timer is behaving. 

I tried to be fancy on the wiring and used crimp connectors rather than just hooking up the wires like on an outlet.  I think (read: hope) one was loose and with vibration wasn't making good, consistent contact.

ac


----------



## Gasifier

infinitymike said:


> I still cant figure this thing out.
> 
> The unit was off all day(from 7am) because we had temps in 60's.
> Wife said It kicked on by itself at 4pm just to bring itself to temp.
> It kicked itself back on a few minutes ago, again to bring itself to temp. There has been to house demand.
> I go out to check on it and it's out. There is about an inch of charcoal and 3 charcoaled splits left.
> I wave the torch over it for a few seconds and then load about 6 small splits in it.
> Not an whisper of smoke out of the stack, there is a heavy roar and its gasifiying.
> 
> I'm starting think that too thick of a hot coal bed prevents gasification. Could this be possible?
> usually when the coal bed is 4" or thicker I don't hear that thundering roar.
> Maybe the gases can't get through the thick bed of coals and it smokes like a dragon.
> 
> Ahhhhh.... I don't know if that is true either, there has been plenty of times when I have a thick bed of coals and don't hear the roar, I reload and have no smoke out of the stack.


 
I have tried to talk to my wife about this. I think this is what she heard, and her reaction.


----------



## avc8130

I use the Charlie Brown "adults" reference all the time!  Hysterical.

ac


----------



## infinitymike

So I guess my last post was jus WAW WUH WAW WUH WAH.


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> So I guess my last post was jus WAW WUH WAW WUH WAH.


 
I'm sorry Mike, I don't have much useful to add.  Generally when my boiler is running I'm either not home, or it is too dark to see the chimney.  I don't have time in the morning to sit around and wait for the boiler to cycle while watching the stack.

ac


----------



## infinitymike

Don't be sorry. It's all in good fun. Gasifier is the wise guy. You gotta watch him. 
Ya never know. He's always got a trick up his sleeve. 

C'mon gasifier. Who luvs ya?!


----------



## Gasifier

AC. Did you hear something?


----------



## infinitymike

Great 2 weeks of therapy, out the window. I was just getting through my abandonment issues from being left behind on page 15, and now this. I could fill my oil tank with the money I will spend to get through this relapse!


----------



## avc8130

I've been too busy diagnosing my cycle timer to watch you 2 quibble like little school girls.

Everything is hooked up properly, confirmed with Darren.  I realized this morning that my timer seems to rotate the wrong way.  Rather than rotating clockwise, which would trip the switch, it is rotating counter-clockwise and getting jammed up against the switch.  Maybe I got the Australian model?

ac


----------



## muncybob

infinitymike said:


> Still having trouble with the timer? I haven't wired mine yet so ill wait for you to figure out if its wrong.
> Darren suggested connecting it to a switch to be able to shut it off during the height of the heating season.


 Mike, you def want a switch on the timer. Once the heart of the heating season arrives you will have no use for the timer until the spring shoulder season.


----------



## avc8130

muncybob said:


> Mike, you def want a switch on the timer. Once the heart of the heating season arrives you will have no use for the timer until the spring shoulder season.


 
I don't think the timer rotating around will really hurt anything.  It draws its power AFTER the high limit aquastat, so if the boiler is too hot, it won't do anything.  It does use ~2W electricity to run though.

ac


----------



## muncybob

My timer was installed by AHS, must be wired differently  as mine will fire on each clip regardless of the temp.


----------



## avc8130

muncybob said:


> My timer was installed by AHS, must be wired differently as mine will fire on each clip regardless of the temp.


 
That is interesting.  I poured through the wiring diagrams in the back of the manual when I wired mine in.  All tapped Red, White, Blue.  Blue is the switched side of the fan/damper.  White is neutral.  Red is the line side of the fan/damper.  Red gets power through the high temp aquastat.  Power is black and travels to the main switch where it is then orange, off to the high temp aquastat to come back as red.

Yours must be wired to black?  Any chance you could open up your timer and control box and take a look? 

What options/features does your WG have?

ac


----------



## muncybob

avc8130 said:


> That is interesting. I poured through the wiring diagrams in the back of the manual when I wired mine in. All tapped Red, White, Blue. Blue is the switched side of the fan/damper. White is neutral. Red is the line side of the fan/damper. Red gets power through the high temp aquastat. Power is black and travels to the main switch where it is then orange, off to the high temp aquastat to come back as red.
> 
> Yours must be wired to black? Any chance you could open up your timer and control box and take a look?
> 
> What options/features does your WG have?
> 
> ac


 
Sure, I'll take a look. The timer, dhw coil and oil burner were the "extras" I got with the boiler from AHS. I was not aware of the low temp aquastat at that time and when I decide to add more ball valves into the system I think I will install one. This spring I installed the smoke hood and am glad that I did. I also bought a set of spare nozzle pieces but have yet to need them but I feel it will be before next heating season. I'm hoping the person that made a nozzle from steel has good results and a better longevity as the AHS parts are not exaclty inexpensive but it appears they will last more than the 15 cords the manual says.


----------



## avc8130

muncybob said:


> Sure, I'll take a look. The timer, dhw coil and oil burner were the "extras" I got with the boiler from AHS. I was not aware of the low temp aquastat at that time and when I decide to add more ball valves into the system I think I will install one. This spring I installed the smoke hood and am glad that I did. I also bought a set of spare nozzle pieces but have yet to need them but I feel it will be before next heating season. I'm hoping the person that made a nozzle from steel has good results and a better longevity as the AHS parts are not exaclty inexpensive but it appears they will last more than the 15 cords the manual says.


 
I'm curious how your wiring is done.  Are you SURE your cycle time works no matter what temp?  I checked every schematic in the manual, all show Red as the power supply to the timer and that is only hot when the high temp aquastat is under its set point.

ac


----------



## muncybob

ac, I guess I'm not *100%* sure...but there's one way to find out. I'll do some investigating by the weekend if I can ever get caught up with my to do list!


----------



## Gasifier

avc8130 said:


> I've been too busy diagnosing my cycle timer to watch you 2 quibble like little school girls.


 

AC. That's your alarm clock you keep messing with. Put your dam glasses on!







I don't think that is a Wood Gun you bought there bud. Nice boiler though. Darren didn't know the difference did he?


----------



## mikefrommaine

This thread needs to die.



I keep checking back to see what I missed. But I think it jumped the shark a while ago!


----------



## infinitymike

Gasifier. Where do you come up with stuff. You are hysterical. 
We need to hang out and tip a few back. Soda of course since we are little school girls.


----------



## avc8130

LOL

I did some diagnosing on the cycle timer.  I think I got a bad timer from Intermatic.  The timer dial definitely rotates backwards.  It simply won't work like this.  Since it is an AC motor, reversing the leads doesn't fix the problem.  It must have been assembled wrong from the factory (Mexico). 

I swapped the timer for another...so far so good.  This one is spinning in the correct direction and operating properly.

I like soda!

ac


----------



## infinitymike

Mike don't be such a hater. . 
This thread has become a pm between WG owners that is just open for the forum to view.  

Of course you're welcome join in on the semantics.


----------



## infinitymike

AC. Sorry to hear about the faulty timer but glad to hear you hot it taken care of. 
I hope mine spins correctly. I will wire it in this weekend.


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> AC. Sorry to hear about the faulty timer but glad to hear you hot it taken care of.
> I hope mine spins correctly. I will wire it in this weekend.


 
I could probably wire it blindfolded, live I've done it so many times. 

Take some pics inside your control panel.  I'm very curious to see how the simpler WG's are wired up.

ac


----------



## infinitymike

Does this help? 
I tied the smoke hood wiring through the box and removed the extension cord and switch that was mounted on the hood.
The last pic just shows all the other wiring in the back ground that are for all the other controls.


----------



## avc8130

It does.

White: Clock
Red: Switch/Common
Blue: Normally Open

Looks like you have some other non-factory wiring there.  What else you got going on there?

It looks like you have added a low water temp cutoff w/ bypass switch.  Is the other switch your exhaust hood?

What is the switch in the back of the boiler?  Does the random box with the RIB control your circulator from a thermostat signal?

ac


----------



## infinitymike

There _is_ a bunch of wiring. I did not not do the main wiring, only the smoke hood.
I have a low water volume shut off and a low water temp shut off.
I need to flip the switch _up_ on the left of the two switches in order to restart the unit after it shut down because it didn't relight and the water temp dropped below the low limit setting. 
The switch in the far back is a main power kill switch.
The random box with the RIB controls the my oil burner. If the water temp drops below the low temp setting the RIB relay switches power to the oil burner. I have the same RIB relay in the basement next to  the oil burner. 
I also have a controller that has a temp probe attached to the supply line and if the temp reaches a very low temp ( I don't know what that is but its probably around 40*) it will kick on the oil burner and circulate water through the WG to prevent freezing .


----------



## avc8130

Mike,

Sounds like a nice set of controls.  I have the same setup for the low water temp.  I labeled the switch positions "start" and "run". 

I really like that 40F fail safe considering the WG is in your garage.  Excellent idea!

ac


----------



## muncybob

muncybob said:


> My timer was installed by AHS, must be wired differently as mine will fire on each clip regardless of the temp.


 
OK, above statement is wrong. I adjusted the high temp setting to below what the boiler was at and turned the timer....nothing happened. I guess I thought it was running at any temp due to previously having hit the high temp. But, I have included a few pics for those that may be curious on the wiring, etc. of a WG with the oil burner add on.


----------



## avc8130

muncybob said:


> OK, above statement is wrong. I adjusted the high temp setting to below what the boiler was at and turned the timer....nothing happened. I guess I thought it was running at any temp due to previously having hit the high temp. But, I have included a few pics for those that may be curious on the wiring, etc. of a WG with the oil burner add on.


 
I figured.  It would be very dangerous of them to wire it any other way.

I see you have the auto oil backup.  Do you LIKE it? 

I can't help but notice the boiler firmly in the "WOOD" setting with a note to remove the plug before switching. 

I opted for the manual oil backup, figuring I would prefer to decide entirely which fuel to be burning and it saved me ~$1500 over the auto setup.

ac


----------



## muncybob

We went with the oil add on due to the old oil burner I replaced was at the end of it's life, so I figure if I need an oil back up may as well get the add on to save some space in our basement. It works fine for it's purpose,  which is to keep the house heated on any extended trips we make, but the 1st thing I will do when we get home is switch back to wood. The auto features works well and has a lock out so that you must manually shut down the boiler and then turn switch back to wood  only in order to take out of oil mode.

The Mrs. wrote the warning about the plug just to remind her, would not like to see the consequences of not removing it when going oil! It MUST be removed for either the oil or auto option.


----------



## avc8130

muncybob said:


> We went with the oil add on due to the old oil burner I replaced was at the end of it's life, so I figure if I need an oil back up may as well get the add on to save some space in our basement. It works fine for it's purpose, which is to keep the house heated on any extended trips we make, but the 1st thing I will do when we get home is switch back to wood. The auto features works well and has a lock out so that you must manually shut down the boiler and then turn switch back to wood only in order to take out of oil mode.
> 
> The Mrs. wrote the warning about the plug just to remind her, would not like to see the consequences of not removing it when going oil! It MUST be removed for either the oil or auto option.


 
Yeah, that is the exact reason I wanted an oil option also.  I went "manual" since I didn't see us using the "auto" setting.  I still haven't completed the oil portion of the install (installing the burner, running the lines, tuning) so I have no clue how this thing will work burning oil.

DEFINITELY get that plug out before using oil.  I plan on making a label for the control panel similar to yours.

ac


----------



## CTFIRE

Hey guys. New to the forum. Been reading up and stalking for a while. Just got done this weekend installing the E140. Was a little sketchy getting it installed. It's been sitting in my garage since August. Lower into the basement bilco doors two weeks ago. Hooked it up yesterday and today. Had a few bad solder joints getting the baseboards hooked up. Did a test fire last night. Bringing it up to temperature now. Don't think  I am gasifying yet as there is still smoke at the stack tip. Shout out to Infinitymike. Got a kick out of your videos and your wood pile.


----------



## infinitymike

Hey CTFIRE. Congratulations. 
I love it, more WoodGunners. 
We're getting stronger. 

Thanks for the shout out

I assume your in Connecticut?  My sister lives in Branford. 

So we need details. 
1. Are you new to wood burning
2. Do you have a good supply of dry wood
3. Did you do the install. 
4. What kind of goodies did you get with WG
     IE:  smoke hood, low temp shut off, cycle timer, etc
5. And most importantly. 
     PICS, PICS, and LOTS OF PICS.


----------



## Gasifier

CTFIRE said:


> Hey guys. New to the forum. Been reading up and stalking for a while. Just got done this weekend installing the E140. Was a little sketchy getting it installed. It's been sitting in my garage since August. Lower into the basement bilco doors two weeks ago. Hooked it up yesterday and today. Had a few bad solder joints getting the baseboards hooked up. Did a test fire last night. Bringing it up to temperature now. Don't think I am gasifying yet as there is still smoke at the stack tip. Shout out to Infinitymike. Got a kick out of your videos and your wood pile.


 
CTFIRE. Congrats on the Wood Gun! Rule #1 on Hearth.com. PICS or it didn't happen. You may want to start a thread of your installation. Let's see it. Pics are easy to load. We love PICS and stories about installs. I even started a thread about our systems. Take a click on this when you have time and check some of them out!

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/a-few-pictures-of-our-boiler-systems.75006/

Then add some pics of yours to it if you like. Good luck on the burning, and if you have questions, ask them. Just be careful of those guys from Long Island.


----------



## infinitymike

Yeah you know those guys from Long Island,  they're scary.


----------



## CTFIRE




----------



## avc8130

The slide!  You are my HERO.  Forget the kids, I'm ripping the swingset apart tomorrow.

ac


----------



## avc8130

Wait a second.  That control panel!  Is that one of the new PCB controlled WG's?

ac


----------



## CTFIRE

Ok. So I posted a pic. Will probably redo the hydro in the spring as the house is 30 yrs old the original oil system was piped odd.

1. Are you new to wood burning- Yes. We have a fire place, but that doesn't heat too well. Old system was 15 yr old oil hot water baseboard. 3 zones now, but planned to add the basement and will also probably do the kitchen floor from below. 
2. Do you have a good supply of dry wood. Yes. Have been hoarding for a year ahead of the purchase. Maybe 4 or 5 cords split. Another 6 is eight foot logs. 
3. Did you do the install.  - Yes. Will a lot of help from friends. Excavator to bring it around back and lower into the basement. Several other guys to sweat pipes and trouble shoot. 
4. What kind of goodies did you get with WG - Smoke hood, oil back up. 
IE: smoke hood, low temp shut off, cycle timer, etc
5. And most importantly. 
PICS, PICS, and LOTS OF PICS.Posted the pic. If you see the pink kids slide in the background, it is my wood shoot. Converted a basement window. Pull my tractor and cart up and dump. Plan on keep a cord outside and bringing one in every couple days to cut down on bugs.


----------



## infinitymike

Thanks great. Looks good. Love the slide. Like AC said, what kind if control box is that. 
Can you get a better pic of it. 

Also, how do you have the main exhaust and the smoke hood piped. 
It's hard to see. Did you tee the smoke hood into the main exhaust? 

You will benefit from the radiant heat of the WG, what room is above it? 
It will be toasty. 

Homework:  need pics of control box, exhaust piping, and WOOD SUPPLY!


----------



## infinitymike

AC. What's a PCB?


----------



## CTFIRE




----------



## CTFIRE




----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> AC. What's a PCB?


 
See the pic.  That thing!  lol


----------



## CTFIRE




----------



## Gasifier




----------



## CTFIRE

I had started doing the standard racks and then my brother told me to research Holzhaufen's.  It's a German wood stacking technique where you build a circle of wood. Every two feet you add a row to help tilt the wood back in towards the center. The center is wood is put in vertically. You create a chimney effect where by the air gets drawn in and sucked up the center. Cuts drying time. Also they are self supporting  and look neat.


----------



## infinitymike

You are the man. Or as we scary LI'ers say U DA MAN.


----------



## infinitymike

What is the white and yellow pipe for.


----------



## CTFIRE

infinitymike said:


> What is the white and yellow pipe for.


That's how you start the circle. Place the pole and then take a string to set your initial diameter. I have a couple that are 6 or 8 ft in diameter. Once you lay our that first circle, you can start stacking and it is all self supporting.


----------



## Gasifier

CTFIRE said:


> I had started doing the standard racks and then my brother told me to research Holzhaufen's. It's a German wood stacking technique where you build a circle of wood. Every two feet you add a row to help tilt the wood back in towards the center. The center is wood is put in vertically. You create a chimney effect where by the air gets drawn in and sucked up the center. Cuts drying time. Also they are self supporting and look neat.


 
CTFIRE. Check out the Wood Shed forum, if you haven't yet. Lots of cool info there about stacking, drying, etc. etc. Tons of information on Hearth.com.


----------



## infinitymike

Gasifier said:


> Tons of information on Hearth.com.



Yeah, and that's why I get nothing done all day, cause I'm reading and posted all the time. :-


----------



## CTFIRE

infinitymike said:


> Yeah, and that's why I get nothing done all day, cause I'm reading and posted all the time. :-


 
Hey Mike - Are you a fireman or cop? Listening to you on those youtube clips made my brother and I think you were on the job.


----------



## avc8130

CTFIRE said:


> Hey Mike - Are you a fireman or cop? Listening to you on those youtube clips made my brother and I think you were on the job.


 
Everyone LOVES Mike's vids.  He was actually the first person I ever subscribed to on Youtube!

ac


----------



## CTFIRE

So the house is warm and everything is ok. Wood gun is idle and around 180 degrees and quiet.  Why do I keep purging the gas and opening to look inside the firebox. Nice glowing coals and wood ready to burn. I feel like a fool. Sorta of when I first brought the kids home and would go check in the middle of the night to see if they were sleeping. This forum is great. Still unsure on the timers you guys are mentioning and the water storage.


----------



## avc8130

CTFIRE said:


> So the house is warm and everything is ok. Wood gun is idle and around 180 degrees and quiet. Why do I keep purging the gas and opening to look inside the firebox. Nice glowing coals and wood ready to burn. I feel like a fool. Sorta of when I first brought the kids home and would go check in the middle of the night to see if they were sleeping. This forum is great. Still unsure on the timers you guys are mentioning and the water storage.


 
It's ok.  I've been running mine a few weeks now and I still like to check in on her.

The timer really only matters when the weather warms up and the heat demand goes down. 

Storage?  I have none.

ac


----------



## muncybob

So now the purge is a button instead of a dial? Do you have any control on how long it will run? They certainly have changed the control box since I got mine!

It took me almost 2 full seasons to stop "peeking in" on the fire. Now I know what it's doing by the stack temp. Nice supply of wood you have on hand...and a belated welcome!


----------



## avc8130

muncybob said:


> So now the purge is a button instead of a dial? Do you have any control on how long it will run? They certainly have changed the control box since I got mine!
> 
> It took me almost 2 full seasons to stop "peeking in" on the fire. Now I know what it's doing by the stack temp. Nice supply of wood you have on hand...and a belated welcome!


 
I saw in the back of my manual that they had switched some of the control panels to programmable controls.  The purge function is done digitally on the new models.  He also has a button for the "start" with the low temp cutoff.  I bet it is programmed to watch for temp and then activates the circuit after temp is reached the first time. 

This is a catch-22 to me.  The digital controls are totally sweet and really add a modern touch.  However, one of the major things that attracted me to the WG over the other boilers was its simplicity.  I really like how everything is mechanical and off-the-shelf at the local home supply store. 

ac


----------



## infinitymike

CTFIRE said:


> Hey Mike - Are you a fireman or cop? Listening to you on those youtube clips made my brother and I think you were on the job.


Thats interesting that you would think that from a video, but no I'm not on the job, it's just that Lawng Gyland Ginny accent that I have, kinda like Rocky Balboa.
I'm a residential contractor, primarily a framing contractor. 



avc8130 said:


> Everyone LOVES Mike's vids. He was actually the first person I ever subscribed to on Youtube!
> 
> ac


 
Thanks, Those are the first videos I ever took, let alone posted.
I need to do a few more. Got any suggestions.



CTFIRE said:


> So the house is warm and everything is ok. Wood gun is idle and around 180 degrees and quiet. Why do I keep purging the gas and opening to look inside the firebox. Nice glowing coals and wood ready to burn. I feel like a fool. Sorta of when I first brought the kids home and would go check in the middle of the night to see if they were sleeping. This forum is great. Still unsure on the timers you guys are mentioning and the water storage.


 
I love just standing in front of it and staring and thinking about things to improve on. Don't worry you're in the right place and you're not alone.
The timer we talk about is a timer that you set to turn the unit on for a minute or two every hour or so to keep the coals hot and ready to relight.

But you only need that if you didn't order the FIRE LIGHTING GREMLINS from AHS, like I did.


----------



## infinitymike

Here is my latest project, its 9000 sq ft, plus a 3000 sq ft basement.
This a view from the back of the house on my 65' arial platform and that is my Lull rough terrain fork lift down there.


----------



## Gasifier

Wow Mike. Those peeps got some money going into that place. You get to have all the fun. No fair.  Nice looking work. Is that rubber roofing on the whole thing? Or just on the lower roofs? What will finished roof be?


----------



## avc8130

I hope they have their propane tanks in for storage already...

ac


----------



## Gasifier

avc8130 said:


> I hope they have their propane tanks in for storage already...
> 
> ac


 
 For some reason I am thinking these folks won't be burning wood.


----------



## infinitymike

Gasifier said:


> For some reason I am thinking these folks won't be burning wood.


Burn wood?! Ha! They just burn money. 

He actually is the client who is giving me all of his wood from clearing his property! Plus the storm damage!
I'm up to about 4 cord. And there still more.


----------



## infinitymike

The upper flat roofs have EPDM rubber on them. All the sloping roofs have ice and water shield right now but will be getting asphalt shingles.  Plus all the barrel roofs will get standing seam copper.


----------



## Woodsrover

CTFIRE, welcome to the forum.  Where in CT are you?

Mike, nice place you're building.  Is that basement in the front for firewood in the basement?  How big of a Woodgun did you talk the owners into?  What's with all the flat roofs?  They make me cringe just waiting for the leaks!


----------



## infinitymike

Woodsrover said:


> Mike, nice place you're building. Is that basement in the front for firewood in the basement? How big of a Woodgun did you talk the owners into? What's with all the flat roofs? They make me cringe just waiting for the leaks!


 
Thanks woodsrover. That would be a good space for wood storage. I think that house would need a E500 or E1000
The  flat roof style makes me cringe not for leaks but for looks. 

Hey how are you doing with the new WG?


----------



## Woodsrover

infinitymike said:


> Thanks woodsrover. That would be a good space for wood storage. I think that house would need a E500 or E1000
> The flat roof style makes me cringe not for leaks but for looks.
> 
> Hey how are you doing with the new WG?


 
A good friend of mine is a roofer and we have a lot of high-end homes around here and many designed by architects that like flat roofs. He hates flat roofs but gets stuck doing them from time to time. Frank Lloyd Wright's "House V" is in my town. The purests had a fit when new owners got tired of a wet floor and put a 2-degree pitch to the roof. Nice house but if it can't keep the rain out.....

The boiler is doing great. I don't even think about it much any more...Load it twice a day, clean the ash pan twice a week and that's about it. Waiting for some cold weather so I can really start burning some wood!

Speaking of wood, I have a buddy that's a tree surgeon and he called me Friday and told me to stop up. He dropped a pretty nice black walnut and couldn't see blocking it up for wood. I grabbe the two biggest pieces and slabbed them up yesterday into 6/4" and 8/4" planks. Went back this morning for some smaller pieces and cut them up into 5" square beams. Seems momma wants a new dinning room table! Here are pictures of what came out of the two bigger pieces.


----------



## Fred61

Wow, gunstocks!


----------



## Woodsrover

Fred61 said:


> Wow, gunstocks!


 
Ha!  I was thinking the same thing.  Trouble is, all my guns have pretty nice wood on them already!


----------



## infinitymike

That is some B E A UTIFUL wood. Mommas gonna be happy with a new table. 
How long before you can start working with it? 
My friend built a table out of ?Bobinka?  What an unbelievable wood. He just kept sanding and sanding and sanding and it then only needed some oil and it shined like glass.


----------



## Woodsrover

infinitymike said:


> That is some B E A UTIFUL wood. Mommas gonna be happy with a new table.
> How long before you can start working with it?
> My friend built a table out of ?Bobinka? What an unbelievable wood. He just kept sanding and sanding and sanding and it then only needed some oil and it shined like glass.


 
It'll probably be close to a year before I cut and plane it.  Maybe a little sooner.  In the spring I'll move it out under the shed roof where the air will get to it a little better.  If I only had the Coalgun burning out in the barn this year I could dry it sooner!

Bobinga wood.  Nice stuff.  I'm no carpenter by any stretch of the imagination but I've seen that stuff and its nice.


----------



## Woodsrover

avc8130 said:


> This is a catch-22 to me. The digital controls are totally sweet and really add a modern touch. However, one of the major things that attracted me to the WG over the other boilers was its simplicity. I really like how everything is mechanical and off-the-shelf at the local home supply store.
> 
> ac


 
Back on topic, I'm with AC.  We have equipment at work that runs on controls like that and I have to say they are very reliable, but I still like the idea of simple old controls that can be repair in the field.  I'm sure you won't have any trouble with it but I'm just old-school like that.


----------



## mikefrommaine

Woodsrover said:


> Back on topic, I'm with AC.  We have equipment at work that runs on controls like that and I have to say they are very reliable, but I still like the idea of simple old controls that can be repair in the field.  I'm sure you won't have any trouble with it but I'm just old-school like that.


The first gen of a pcb is not something I would want. I just had to replace the main control board on my ge fridge. Unknowingly in 2003 I bought one of  the first digital models. Mechanincal timers and relays may take up more space but are easy to diagnose and replace.


----------



## CTFIRE

Woodsrover said:


> CTFIRE, welcome to the forum. Where in CT are you?


I am in Trumbull. Where are you?


----------



## CTFIRE

infinitymike said:


> That s interesting that you would think that from a video, but no I'm not on the job, it's just that Lawng Gyland Ginny accent that I have, kinda like Rocky Balboa. I'm a residential contractor, primarily a framing contractor..


 
Well it was a good guess. There are a few Lawng Gyland Ginnies in both those professions. The rest are contractors  Nice pics of the house BTW>


----------



## CTFIRE

So I think I have it dialed in. I was working outside today and some a a little smoke from the stack. Less than my traditional fire place, but still visible smoke. It went away after a minute or two, so I went to the basement. The wood gun was on and I peaked in the back air port and there was a good fire inside.. Went back out and confirmed no smoke. Was very excited. The boiler seems to be maintaining the 180 nicely. I check it every few hours and purge the gas so I can open the door. I am curious if I need a timer. Should I worry about it going out?  I would  a new thread but this appears to be the Wood Gun hang out thread.


----------



## avc8130

CTFIRE said:


> So I think I have it dialed in. I was working outside today and some a a little smoke from the stack. Less than my traditional fire place, but still visible smoke. It went away after a minute or two, so I went to the basement. The wood gun was on and I peaked in the back air port and there was a good fire inside.. Went back out and confirmed no smoke. Was very excited. The boiler seems to be maintaining the 180 nicely. I check it every few hours and purge the gas so I can open the door. I am curious if I need a timer. Should I worry about it going out? I would a new thread but this appears to be the Wood Gun hang out thread.


 

Feel free to use the thread.  This has definitely turned into a WG owners party!

I went with the timer.  It was an easy install and works.  I'd rather have the timer running than risk losing a fire and taking a cold shower.  It really depends just how much demand your house has.

I'd be surprised if WG couldn't have put a timer function in that PCB.  When you ordered, did you specify the PCB controls?

ac


----------



## CTFIRE

AC. What you are saying sounds familiar, but I don't see anything in the manual. Just sent Darren an email and will let you know. ,


----------



## Woodsrover

CTFIRE said:


> I am in Trumbull. Where are you?


 
Cornwall.  Up in the north-west corner.  Gotta be in a place I can pee in the front yard and cut wood and shoot in the back.


----------



## infinitymike

Woodsrover said:


> Cornwall. Up in the north-west corner. Gotta be in a place I can pee in the front yard and cut wood and shoot in the back.


 
I gotta move somewhere like that!  But, I still pee on the side yard between wood racks   Now to be able to shoot, that would be great! The range is one thing, but to be on my own property would be sweet.


----------



## infinitymike

CTFIRE said:


> I check it every few hours and purge the gas so I can open the door. I am curious if I need a timer. Should I worry about it going out?


 
I went last season without the timer and even though I just bought it last week I still haven't installed it yet. 
Without it I would occasionally lose a fire. But that was only in the mild months.
It was a little annoying but not to bad. Except that the damn oil pig was running
 I don't know why I would lose the fire since I paid extra for the option of the FIRE STARTING GREMLINS!


----------



## infinitymike

Hey Mike from Maine, according to your signature, what exactly are the laws of physics that my boiler will follow that I don't understand?
Is this one of the laws of physics?
*Autoignition temperature*

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The *autoignition temperature* or *kindling point* of a substance is the lowest temperature at which it will spontaneously ignite in a normal atmosphere without an external source of ignition, such as a flame or spark. This temperature is required to supply the activation energy needed for combustion. The temperature at which a chemical will ignite decreases as the pressure increases or oxygen concentration increases. It is usually applied to a combustible fuel mixture.


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> I went last season without the timer and even though I just bought it last week I still haven't installed it yet.
> Without it I would occasionally lose a fire. But that was only in the mild months.
> It was a little annoying but not to bad. Except that the damn oil pig was running
> I don't know why I would lose the fire since I paid extra for the option of the FIRE STARTING GREMLINS!


 
Why not just switch the oil beast off?  I still don't even have mine installed!

I think I lost 2 fires...lazy gremlins. 

Install your timer.  It literally takes 10 minutes, not nearly as difficult as hooking up some form of DHW.  

ac


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> Hey Mike from Maine, according to your signature, what exactly are the laws of physics that my boiler will follow that I don't understand?
> Is this one of the laws of physics?
> *Autoignition temperature*
> 
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> The *autoignition temperature* or *kindling point* of a substance is the lowest temperature at which it will spontaneously ignite in a normal atmosphere without an external source of ignition, such as a flame or spark. This temperature is required to supply the activation energy needed for combustion. The temperature at which a chemical will ignite decreases as the pressure increases or oxygen concentration increases. It is usually applied to a combustible fuel mixture.


 

Before anyone asks:

Charcoal has an autoignition temperature of 660F.  So the REAL question is: "what temp is the refractory?"

ac


----------



## infinitymike

avc8130 said:


> Why not just switch the oil beast off?  I still don't even have mine installed!
> 
> I think I lost 2 fires...lazy gremlins.
> 
> Install your timer.  It literally takes 10 minutes, not nearly as difficult as hooking up some form of DHW.
> 
> ac



Iwas waiting for this reply.


----------



## infinitymike

Wood has an auto ignition of 572*


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> Wood has an auto ignition of 572*


 
Citation needed


----------



## Woodsrover

infinitymike said:


> I gotta move somewhere like that! But, I still pee on the side yard between wood racks Now to be able to shoot, that would be great! The range is one thing, but to be on my own property would be sweet.


 
Got enough property to cut all my wood, cut all the lumber I need, shoot at will and this year I've killed three deer within 200-yards of the house.


----------



## mikefrommaine

infinitymike said:


> Hey Mike from Maine, according to your signature, what exactly are the laws of physics that my boiler will follow that I don't understand?
> Is this one of the laws of physics?
> *Autoignition temperature*
> 
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> The *autoignition temperature* or *kindling point* of a substance is the lowest temperature at which it will spontaneously ignite in a normal atmosphere without an external source of ignition, such as a flame or spark. This temperature is required to supply the activation energy needed for combustion. The temperature at which a chemical will ignite decreases as the pressure increases or oxygen concentration increases. It is usually applied to a combustible fuel mixture.



I wouldnt be able to speculate on your knowledge of physics. But my point was our boilers are going to do what they do once we light the match. Whether we understand why they are doing what they are doing or not.... So be safe!


----------



## mikefrommaine

avc8130 said:


> Before anyone asks:
> 
> Charcoal has an autoignition temperature of 660F.  So the REAL question is: "what temp is the refractory?"
> 
> ac



Sounds like an experiment is in order. Do you have ir thermometer?


----------



## avc8130

mikefrommaine said:


> Sounds like an experiment is in order. Do you have ir thermometer?


 
I DID, but the WG burned the leads of my cheap thermocouple. 

If someone had an IR thermometer it would be easy to prove.  Just open the lower door and shoot the refractory while the WG is "off/idle".  Plot the temp vs time and THEORETICALLY, if the cement remains 650F+, the fire could literally be "out" and re-kindle.

ac


----------



## Woodsrover

This subject has been discussed and beat to death and so far I've been able to keep my mouth shut and stay out of it. But....Here's my take on what happens:

When the boiler's heat is satisfied and/or the cycle timer shuts it down, all air is choked off to the fire. The fire sits and smolders and smolders and smolders and glowing embers remain inside the firebox. If, and only if there are a couple of these glowing embers left when the boiler kicks back on the fire will rekindle itself and start to actively burn again. The firebrick is hot but when you think about it, this brick is meant to transfer heat to the water jacket. Its not meant to be a heat-sink or retain that much heat. I agree that the center swirl chamber is very hot especially while it's burning and even if it _did_ retain that kind of heat, it would be below the fuel and with the intake air being pulled across this fuel and down through the swirl chamber, this residual heat wouldn't have a chance to get to the fuel. Unless there are glowing embers left in your fire box, you're hitting it with a torch to relight. No magic, no tricks and no gremlins unless you call a little glowing ember a gremlin.

Now this is me ducking!


----------



## maple1

Actually, I think fire brick/refractory is intended for just the opposite - to insulate the fire box from the cold water jacket, not transfer heat to it. The fire therefore burns better the more heat is kept in it.

I'd agree with the ember take on it though.


----------



## avc8130

maple1 said:


> Actually, I think fire brick/refractory is intended for just the opposite - to insulate the fire box from the cold water jacket, not transfer heat to it. The fire therefore burns better the more heat is kept in it.
> 
> I'd agree with the ember take on it though.


 
The refractory is NOT to transfer heat to the water.  If it did that, you would NEVER get gassification. 

In fact, there is an INSULATING fiberglass blanket under the refractory between it and the water jacket.  Even the ends of the refractory are open and do not touch the water jacket. 

Here's a dare: put a piece of "1 x" lumber in your kitchen oven.  Turn it to broil.  Do NOT let the wood touch the heating element.  You let me know how long it takes until you have the fire department there.  No match, no torch, no glowing embers.

ac


----------



## maple1

avc8130 said:


> The refractory is NOT to transfer heat to the water. If it did that, you would NEVER get gassification.
> 
> In fact, there is an INSULATING fiberglass blanket under the refractory between it and the water jacket. Even the ends of the refractory are open and do not touch the water jacket.
> 
> Here's a dare: put a piece of "1 x" lumber in your kitchen oven. Turn it to broil. Do NOT let the wood touch the heating element. You let me know how long it takes until you have the fire department there. No match, no torch, no glowing embers.
> 
> ac


 
Sounds like are in agreement then on the refractory - the above post 583 (holy crap that's a lot of posts) was the first I had heard mention of refractory used to transfer heat to the water. Don't think I'll try the wood in the oven trick here, thanks. It would be pretty interesting to know how hot the refractory stays in the WG over time, and how hot it still is at the end of the longest 'idling' times that are typically seen, when the fire re-ignites. Also would be interesting to see that temp info on other units too.


----------



## Woodsrover

I've got an infrared thermometer....When I get home tonight I'll fire the boiler up for a good long time on the purge timer and reset the cycle timer like it has just shut off.  I'll go back downstairs just before its set to come back on, rake away the coals and take a temperature reading of the refractory unit.  Any bets on what it'll read?


----------



## maple1

No bets here. 

Is your IR gun pretty good? I got one but it seemed to always read too low or too high - forget now which since I put it on the shelf & haven't used it for quite a while.

Maybe we could have Effecta User wire up his monitoring gear to a WG and plot a graph of refractory temps over time between shut down & re-activation - even more interesting.


----------



## Gasifier

Doesn't really matter what it reads. Does it? The refactory is an insulator, that is what any "brick" are usually used for. To keep the heat where you want it. In the fire box. (Heat transfers at the latter stage.) To keep that ember you are talking about as hot as it can for as long as it can. You are right about that ember, just like Fred was a long time ago. And I think it works pretty well. I still have not bought the cycle timer and it is keeping my house nice and toasty. Just have to be careful to try to not lose it to bridgeing, or poor coal bed, etc.


----------



## Fred61

Woodsrover said:


> This subject has been discussed and beat to death and so far I've been able to keep my mouth shut and stay out of it. But....Here's my take on what happens:
> 
> When the boiler's heat is satisfied and/or the cycle timer shuts it down, all air is choked off to the fire. The fire sits and smolders and smolders and smolders and glowing embers remain inside the firebox. If, and only if there are a couple of these glowing embers left when the boiler kicks back on the fire will rekindle itself and start to actively burn again. The firebrick is hot but when you think about it, this brick is meant to transfer heat to the water jacket. Its not meant to be a heat-sink or retain that much heat. I agree that the center swirl chamber is very hot especially while it's burning and even if it _did_ retain that kind of heat, it would be below the fuel and with the intake air being pulled across this fuel and down through the swirl chamber, this residual heat wouldn't have a chance to get to the fuel. Unless there are glowing embers left in your fire box, you're hitting it with a torch to relight. No magic, no tricks and no gremlins unless you call a little glowing ember a gremlin.
> 
> Now this is me ducking!


 One of the few Wood Gunners that's not embarrasing himself.


----------



## avc8130

Fred61 said:


> One of the few Wood Gunners that's not embarrasing himself.


 
Oh look, the "former" guy is back in the owners party. 

LOL


----------



## avc8130

Woodsrover said:


> I've got an infrared thermometer....When I get home tonight I'll fire the boiler up for a good long time on the purge timer and reset the cycle timer like it has just shut off. I'll go back downstairs just before its set to come back on, rake away the coals and take a temperature reading of the refractory unit. Any bets on what it'll read?


 
Just open the lower door when the unit is "off" and shoot the refractory from the front.  No need to move the coals around.

ac


----------



## Woodsrover

maple1 said:


> No bets here.
> 
> Is your IR gun pretty good? I got one but it seemed to always read too low or too high...


 
I've got a pretty good one.  I'll check it against a "known" like the hot-water outflow just to proof it.  I'll fire it for 10 minutes and let it sit for 70 minutes, 10 minutes short of the cycle timer firing back up and two tall rye and gingers, and check it inside the fire box and below inside the lower door.

I'm going to say it'll be 325 degrees after 70 minutes.


----------



## avc8130

Woodsrover said:


> I've got a pretty good one. I'll check it against a "known" like the hot-water outflow just to proof it. I'll fire it for 10 minutes and let it sit for 70 minutes, 10 minutes short of the cycle timer firing back up and two tall rye and gingers, and check it inside the fire box and below inside the lower door.
> 
> I'm going to say it'll be 325 degrees after 70 minutes.


 
1500-325 is quite a temp drop...


----------



## maple1

Does the refractory itself get to 1500 though?

Place yer bets everyone!

(I'll take 400  )


----------



## Fred61

Nine years operating one under my belt. Hot concrete always ignites wood when you blow cold air on it and that's a fact


----------



## avc8130

Fred61 said:


> Nine years operating one under my belt. Hot concrete always ignites wood when you blow cold air on it and that's a fact


 
Only if it is over the kindling temp.

Either way.  It doesn't matter.  The boiler works, the house is warm, I still have all of my "oil money".

ac


----------



## Gasifier

Where is the majority of the heat transferred in this unit?


----------



## avc8130

SUPPOSEDLY in the "fire tube/swirl chamber".

"The super heated gases pass through the interconnected refractory tunnels and in to our uniquely designed swirl chamber. This is where the bulk of heat exchange takes place."

ac


----------



## Gasifier

Woodsrover said:


> I've got a pretty good one. I'll check it against a "known" like the hot-water outflow just to proof it. I'll fire it for 10 minutes and let it sit for 70 minutes, 10 minutes short of the cycle timer firing back up and two tall rye and gingers, and check it inside the fire box and below inside the lower door.
> 
> I'm going to say it'll be 325 degrees after 70 minutes.


 
Then check that temp again about 15 minutes after it fires back up.  After being off for more than an hour. Or off more than two hours. Or,sometimes, off more than three hours. I am still impressed.

The gassers we own today sure can throw some serious heat. Wood Gun, EKO, Attack, Varm, etc. Nice wood burning machines.


----------



## Fred61

avc8130 said:


> Either way. It doesn't matter. The boiler works, the house is warm, I still have all of my "oil money".


Now yer talkin!!


----------



## CTFIRE

avc8130 said:


> Feel free to use the thread. This has definitely turned into a WG owners party!
> 
> I went with the timer. It was an easy install and works. I'd rather have the timer running than risk losing a fire and taking a cold shower. It really depends just how much demand your house has.
> 
> I'd be surprised if WG couldn't have put a timer function in that PCB. When you ordered, did you specify the PCB controls?
> 
> ac


From Darren at AHS - "The timer you are referring to is the 4 hour cycle timer. If the boiler does not run for 4 hours, it automatically comes on and runs for 10 minutes. The high limit control will shut the boiler down if reaches that point. This timer is already incorporated in the control box that you have."  Looks like mine is built in


----------



## avc8130

CTFIRE said:


> From Darren at AHS - "The timer you are referring to is the 4 hour cycle timer. If the boiler does not run for 4 hours, it automatically comes on and runs for 10 minutes. The high limit control will shut the boiler down if reaches that point. This timer is already incorporated in the control box that you have." Looks like mine is built in


 

Awesome!  I figured they might have put the option in since it would have been easy when they were programming the PCB.

ac


----------



## CTFIRE

I guess my only real concern with the holidays approaching is whether or not I have to tip the fire gremlins. Are they house guests or employees. What's customary. I don't want to seem cheap, but those who seek out alternatives to oil would have a tendency to be on the frugal side. So they really shouldn't expect much, right?


----------



## avc8130

CTFIRE said:


> I guess my only real concern with the holidays approaching is whether or not I have to tip the fire gremlins. Are they house guests or employees. What's customary. I don't want to seem cheap, but those who seek out alternatives to oil would have a tendency to be on the frugal side. So they really shouldn't expect much, right?


 
I figured you throw a $20 in the wood chamber to tip the gremlins for Christmas.  You don't want them getting lazy.

ac


----------



## Gasifier

I just wouldn't tip them like the guy in your avatar is.


----------



## Woodsrover

CTFIRE said:


> From Darren at AHS - "The timer you are referring to is the 4 hour cycle timer. If the boiler does not run for 4 hours, it automatically comes on and runs for 10 minutes....


 
Wonder if that 4-hours can be changed.  I know my gremlins pack their bags and bug-out if I let them alone for too long.  I've got mine set to fire for 6 minutes every 80 minutes.


----------



## avc8130

Woodsrover said:


> Wonder if that 4-hours can be changed. I know my gremlins pack their bags and bug-out if I let them alone for too long. I've got mine set to fire for 6 minutes every 80 minutes.


 
I'm rocking 2 mins ever 60.  I've been thinking about trying 2 every 80 since I haven't lost a fire with the timer, but the boiler is at the high limit often when I go to load.

ac


----------



## Woodsrover

My boiler never calls for fire but simply maintains temperature off the cycle timer.  Ugh.  When are we going to get some cold weather so we can see these things really work????


----------



## Gasifier

Woodsrover said:


> My boiler never calls for fire but simply maintains temperature off the cycle timer. Ugh. When are we going to get some cold weather so we can see these things really work????


 
You could turn it off until your house is down to about 60 and the boiler is cold. It should run for a while then.  Of course then you would have to lite a piece of paper and throw it in there. Oh. Like. Gag me with a purple twinkie! Or should that be spoon.  Whatever.


----------



## Woodsrover

Ok, fired it for 10+ minutes when I got home and raised the boiler temperature to 190 degrees.  Got the following results:

Top of refractory: 888 (above limit of thermometer)
Refractory plug: 888
Refractory just outside plug: 550 degrees
Gasification tunnels: 600 degrees
Fire tube: 200 degrees

Turned the cycle timer off and I'll check everything again at 7:00.
Stay tuned.....


----------



## mikefrommaine

Ok, I'll set the over under at 400 for the temp of the refractory.

I say it will be under.


----------



## Woodsrover

Ok, after exactly an hour of sitting idle the water temperature was at 170 (bathed the wee boy) but the boiler didn't call for heat and fire.  Here are the readings:

Top of refractory: 435 right at the edge of the nozzle bricks
Refractory plug: 250 on the outside of the plug inside the handle.
Refractory just outside plug: 275
Gasification tunnels: 450
Fire tube: 170

Still had a large amount of embers in the firebox.


----------



## infinitymike

WOW!  MAN DID I DROP A HAND GRENADE AND RUN. 
Sorry guys.
Mike from Maine, I meant no ill harm. i just saw your signature and started laughing so I thought that wiki def would be fun.

To beat the horse a little further, I don't know how other units are built, but the bottom of WG firebox is all refractory including the gasification tube and heat exchange tubes, so it will hold a lot of heat for a long time and that heat will be able to "auto ignite" a piece of charcoal.  Thats what the AHS claims and thats what I have seen with my own eyes.

Anyway, all this stuff does is fill use with more information that may or may not be useful. Bottom line is that all of our units heat all of our homes and save us all a lot of money on oil.

But I still love the banter so I will post a few more links with some more arguable tidbits of info


----------



## infinitymike

More info.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/fuels-ignition-temperatures-d_171.html


----------



## infinitymike

too much for brain to digest but a lengthy discussion
http://cdn.intechopen.com/pdfs/9301/InTech-An_experimental_study_on_autoignition_of_wood.pdf


----------



## avc8130

Well...this is interesting.  The autoignition temp of charcoal (is that what we would call "out" wood in the WG after a fire?) is 660F.  Woodsrover has already found that his refractory is well BELOW this temp.  

Science is proving a falsehood!  Back to the gremlins!

ac


----------



## mikefrommaine

Woodsrover said:


> Ok, after exactly an hour of sitting idle the water temperature was at 170 (bathed the wee boy) but the boiler didn't call for heat and fire.  Here are the readings:
> 
> Top of refractory: 435 right at the edge of the nozzle bricks
> Refractory plug: 250 on the outside of the plug inside the handle.
> Refractory just outside plug: 275
> Gasification tunnels: 450
> Fire tube: 170
> 
> Still had a large amount of embers in the firebox.


Well that settles the debate. The fire was never out or "off". The  temps in the refractory would not have supported auto ignition.

Guess the woodgun follows the laws of physics after all


----------



## avc8130

mikefrommaine said:


> Well that settles the debate. The fire was never out or "off". The temps in the refractory would not have supported auto ignition.
> 
> Guess the woodgun follows the laws of physics after all


 
IF the refractory was above the autoignition point...it would have followed the laws of physics also...


----------



## Woodsrover

What someone needs to do is run their Gun for a good long time, get everything as hot as possible, shut it off and then pull all the logs out, vacuum all the ash and embers until it is completely clean and then throw three fresh logs in and start it back up.  Who's gonna be the guinea pig?


----------



## avc8130

Woodsrover said:


> What someone needs to do is run their Gun for a good long time, get everything as hot as possible, shut it off and then pull all the logs out, vacuum all the ash and embers until it is completely clean and then throw three fresh logs in and start it back up. Who's gonna be the guinea pig?


 
Ha!  I could do that, if I could just catch the moment I run out of wood.  The worst part of my learning curve has been making sure I have enough wood in this monster.  I have opened up an empty boiler all too often.  Not good for gassification.

ac


----------



## Gasifier

Woodsrover said:


> What someone needs to do is run their Gun for a good long time, get everything as hot as possible, shut it off and then pull all the logs out, vacuum all the ash and embers until it is completely clean and then throw three fresh logs in and start it back up. Who's gonna be the guinea pig?


 
Ohhhhhh. That is no big deal. Mike will do it. Personally, I don't see the point. The wood gun can go a long time by keeping the coals hot when it closes off the fire chamber. Then, get the fire going again in a hurry by blowing a lot of air on those embers. Even if there is only one. Works great. For those who do not have storage, or that do, it works great.


----------



## infinitymike

Woodsrover said:


> What someone needs to do is run their Gun for a good long time, get everything as hot as possible, shut it off and then pull all the logs out, vacuum all the ash and embers until it is completely clean and then throw three fresh logs in and start it back up. Who's gonna be the guinea pig?


 
That won't be a true comparison since that is not what happens typically. 
What might be better would be to let a fire burn for a while then let it sit "off" for a few hours. 
Then turn the unit on and take a heat gun to the coals to see if they starting glowing red, than we will know if the radiant heat from the refractory will light the coals.

Are we having fun yet?!


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> Are we having fun yet?!


 
Sort of...it's getting cooler here!


----------



## infinitymike

Just to mix it up a bit and since you guys said you like my videos here is another one.


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> Just to mix it up a bit and since you guys said you like my videos here is another one.




Yeah, you like that free wood, don't ya? LOL

Now we are combining MANY things I like.  I heard a chainsaw.  Now if we can just bring a tractor to the thread...


----------



## infinitymike

Is  my Lull (rough terrain forklift) close enough to a tractor?


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> Is my Lull (rough terrain forklift) close enough to a tractor?


 
I've been debating that since watching the video.  Better poll the audience.

Lull:

Tractor or not?


----------



## infinitymike

Lets do a different poll

WG idle or off

BAHAHAHAHA


----------



## BoilerMan

I'll give the Lull a tractor vote, but only since it's a rough terrain.

Mike, all that free Oak is making me jealous, love free wood, _especially hardwood_.
I like the Mansard roof, is the rest going to be hipped, or flat? 

TS


----------



## CTFIRE

So I had a good fire when I left today. Felt good about the 4 hr deal from darren. Wife checked it at 1pm. It was idle. Purge, saw coals add two logs. Checked it again at 3. Same deal. Purged and threw on two logs. She called at 7pm tonight and said it was running, but water temp was down to 120. Opened the fire box and there were two remnants of logs. no fire or coals. I had here leave it off so I could clean ash out and what not and I wanted to be the open to restart it.

1. What is your cleaning regiment Daily weekly etc
2. Its still not cold out, so I am guess the thing was idle more than not today
3. not sure on my connection from the cyclone to the 7 inch pipe. I had cement it to seal it, but it dried out and I had some smoke leaked at restart. Think I need an adapter. Don't have room to do the 6 ft straight. Mine is 45 angle to a 9 ft horizontal that maintains the 45 incline to a 30 ft stack that runs through the  garage and attic (triple wall insulated).


----------



## Gasifier

CTFIRE said:


> So I had a good fire when I left today. Felt good about the 4 hr deal from darren. Wife checked it at 1pm. It was idle. Purge, saw coals add two logs. Checked it again at 3. Same deal. Purged and threw on two logs. She called at 7pm tonight and said it was running, but water temp was down to 120. Opened the fire box and there were two remnants of logs. no fire or coals. I had here leave it off so I could clean ash out and what not and I wanted to be the open to restart it.
> 
> 1. What is your cleaning regiment Daily weekly etc
> 2. Its still not cold out, so I am guess the thing was idle more than not today
> 3. not sure on my connection from the cyclone to the 7 inch pipe. I had cement it to seal it, but it dried out and I had some smoke leaked at restart. Think I need an adapter. Don't have room to do the 6 ft straight. Mine is 45 angle to a 9 ft horizontal that maintains the 45 incline to a 30 ft stack that runs through the garage and attic (triple wall insulated).


 
At these temps I clean my ash pan about once every three days, maybe four. Just to be sure it does not get too full and plugged the cyclone. If that happens more stuff starts heading up your pipe. Not good. I clean the boiler about every five or six days. Depends on how it looks. It is time for a cleaning tonight when I get home for work.

All terrain gets to be considered a tractor. I guess.  We always give the folks from the Island special treatment. And for good reason.  In theory, he could hook a rough plow to the forks and plow up a plot for the wife's garden. See how they always rationalize things in Infinityland!


----------



## infinitymike

Whats even cooler about the Lull than a tractor is it has 3 types of steering: front wheels only, all for wheels for a 13' radius turn and crab steering.
That machine is incredible. I couldnt build the houses that I do with out it. I made a steel bucket for the forks and a 24' jib to reach those hard to get places.


----------



## infinitymike

I clean the ash pan very 4-5 days in mild temps and every 3-4 days when colder. I clean the gasification and heat exchange tubes every 5-6 days.
I only clean out the firebox when I see there is a large amount of white ash. That may be every couple weeks. I don't want to loose any of that precious fire starting charcoal.


----------



## infinitymike

Yeah be careful. I have had my cyclone clog up a few times. Usually I can un plug it from the bottom by sticking my finger up the hole. ( hey now get your mind out of the gutter)
But a couple times I had to disconnect the pipe from the top and really clean it out.
I still get condensation dripping down my stack into the ash pan and that makes for a nice pasty blash ash mud. Real good for clogging things up.


----------



## Woodsrover

CTFIRE said:


> So I had a good fire when I left today. Felt good about the 4 hr deal from darren. Wife checked it at 1pm. It was idle. Purge, saw coals add two logs. Checked it again at 3. Same deal. Purged and threw on two logs. She called at 7pm tonight and said it was running, but water temp was down to 120. Opened the fire box and there were two remnants of logs. no fire or coals. I had here leave it off so I could clean ash out and what not and I wanted to be the open to restart it.
> 
> 1. What is your cleaning regiment Daily weekly etc
> 2. Its still not cold out, so I am guess the thing was idle more than not today
> 3. not sure on my connection from the cyclone to the 7 inch pipe. I had cement it to seal it, but it dried out and I had some smoke leaked at restart. Think I need an adapter. Don't have room to do the 6 ft straight. Mine is 45 angle to a 9 ft horizontal that maintains the 45 incline to a 30 ft stack that runs through the garage and attic (triple wall insulated).


 
I clean the ash pan on Wednesdays and Saturdays.  I'll probably have to do it a little more often when and if it gets cold and I really start burning wood.  I clean the lower unit maybe once a week but usually once every two weeks.  You can clean both with the boiler running but not both at the same time.  It really cuts down on dust in the air, especially when you're cleaning the lower unit.

Use high-temp silicone to seal up the pipes.


----------



## Woodsrover

avc8130 said:


> Lull:
> 
> Tractor or not?


 
Eh, it's got tractor tires after all. Yeah, I'll call it a tractor with a really long loader.

Here's a tractor...A picture of my old Kubota from a few years back. I bought this tractor as salvage from an insurance company after it was fished out of a pool. Dried it out, cleaned it up and replaced a few bent parts and she was good to go. Had it for almost 20 years before selling it and buying a new Kioti. That's my Salsco chipper on the back and the wife in the driver's seat. She used to help a lot more with the firewood before the youngin' came along. He's 2 now but hell be stacking firewood before too long.







The new Kioti.  Yes, Mike, that was last summer when I was framing my new deck.  24'x24', split level.  I'm no builder but I managed to muddle through that one.


----------



## Woodsrover

infinitymike said:


> Just to mix it up a bit and since you guys said you like my videos here is another one.


 
Mike, looks like some good hunting on that property!  When does Jersey whitetail season close?  That new house with no windows would make a great ground-blind.


----------



## CTFIRE

So the fire was out again at 6am. Got it started again. Thinking that I didn't have a good coal base since the fire I created last night was because the one yesterday went out.


----------



## avc8130

CTFIRE said:


> So I had a good fire when I left today. Felt good about the 4 hr deal from darren. Wife checked it at 1pm. It was idle. Purge, saw coals add two logs. Checked it again at 3. Same deal. Purged and threw on two logs. She called at 7pm tonight and said it was running, but water temp was down to 120. Opened the fire box and there were two remnants of logs. no fire or coals. I had here leave it off so I could clean ash out and what not and I wanted to be the open to restart it.
> 
> 1. What is your cleaning regiment Daily weekly etc
> 2. Its still not cold out, so I am guess the thing was idle more than not today
> 3. not sure on my connection from the cyclone to the 7 inch pipe. I had cement it to seal it, but it dried out and I had some smoke leaked at restart. Think I need an adapter. Don't have room to do the 6 ft straight. Mine is 45 angle to a 9 ft horizontal that maintains the 45 incline to a 30 ft stack that runs through the garage and attic (triple wall insulated).


 
I'm not so sure about your operating strategy.  I find my boiler likes LESS attention.  Put a fair amount of wood in it, come back in 10-12 hours, rake coals/ash and reload. 

Why was it still running at 120F?  What is your low water temp aquastat set to?

I clean the ash pan not often enough.  It is generally full when I get to it.  Must be 5-7 days.  I clean the lower tubes too often.  I rarely find anything in them.  I find most of the ash in the lower unit is bunched up behind the front door below the fire tube opening.  I have yet to need to work inside the wood chamber.  I just feed the ash through the nozzles like AHS says to.  Works fine.

Definitely.  I put wood in mine last night, woke up this morning to the smoke detectors.  The cycle timer popped on just after the boiler fired.  This causes a wood gas explosion that comes back out through the intake.  When I opened the boiler, it still had 80% of the wood load from the night before.

High temp silicone here also.  I may re-do my connection next year.  I have an idea to make a solid, welded SS connector with bolt flanges at the cyclone and at the masonry thimble.  I might use a rope gasket, or some of the high temp stuff WG uses on the cyclone attachment.  That all depends how motivated I get.

ac

Lull: NOT a tractor, but cool in its own rite.


----------



## muncybob

That wood gas explosion is something that may happen when using the cycle timer, you just can't predict it. First time it happened to me I was right at the boiler and I just about soiled myself!

My cleaning is only once per week, even in the coldest weather. I guess I'm lucky, but I have yet to plug up the cyclone...however, I do get a fair amount of ash accumulation at the base of my chimney which requires cleaning 2 times a year or so. I do not clean the firebox much anymore, rake it around a bit to get the ash to fall thru the nozzle and then clean out the nozzle tube trying to repserve as much of the coals in the firebox as  possible. I also don't clean the ash accumulation at the bottom of the doors anymore as long as all the tubes are not obstructed. The ash will help to preserve the door seals.

All my joints are sealed with high temp silicone and I have no leaks that I know of.

CT, if I read your post correctly your are cycling once every 4 hours? With the current low heat load we have I doubt I could maintain hot coals going that long. Once (1 clip=3 min. I think) every hour seems to work fairly well for us. The trick for us is to get the timer to initially turn on about 30 minutes after a good fire to maintain the bed of coals and then every hour after that.


----------



## Gasifier

I'm not so sure about your operating strategy. I find my boiler likes LESS attention. Put a fair amount of wood in it, come back in 10-12 hours, rake coals/ash and reload. 

I agree with AC about loading the boiler with sufficient wood and coming back about 10 hours later. With the average temps we are having I load about 3/4 full and I get about 11-12 hours with it. Today is colder so it will probably give me 10-11 hours.

Definitely. I put wood in mine last night, woke up this morning to the smoke detectors. The cycle timer popped on just after the boiler fired. This causes a wood gas explosion that comes back out through the intake. When I opened the boiler, it still had 80% of the wood load from the night before.

With the fan on these Wood Guns you have to make sure everything is sealed up perfect. Once you get that taken care of it is smooth sailing after that. It took me a while to get it just right. Now it is trouble free.

High temp silicone here also. I may re-do my connection next year. I have an idea to make a solid, welded SS connector with bolt flanges at the cyclone and at the masonry thimble. I might use a rope gasket, or some of the high temp stuff WG uses on the cyclone attachment. That all depends how motivated I get.

If you have horizontal runs, even with a decent pitch to them, make sure you keep them clean. And check them often. Don't want a fire in the wrong place!

This is especially true if you are burning wood that is not as dry as it should be.


----------



## Woodsrover

Everything that these guys said.

CT has the new control unit and not a regular cycle timer like the rest of us.  Call AHS and see if you can program your cycle timer to fire every hour or so for a few minutes.  Four hours is too long to go.  And I'll also say that more is better.  I load my boiler exactly twice a day and no more.  Once at 6:00am and then again sometime around 8:00.  That gets me though the day and the night.


----------



## avc8130

Woodsrover said:


> I load my boiler exactly twice a day and no more. Once at 6:00am and then again sometime around 8:00. That gets me though the day and the night.


 
That seems to be exactly the trend.  The day temps are warmer so I can get that extra ~4 hours out of the "day" load.

ac


----------



## CTFIRE

So once I have a good bed of coals, put a lot of wood in and make sure it cycles every hour or so. I have a call into AHS to see if I can adjust the timer.


----------



## avc8130

CTFIRE said:


> So once I have a good bed of coals, put a lot of wood in and make sure it cycles every hour or so. I have a call into AHS to see if I can adjust the timer.


 
That's what I do.  Once I put in enough wood to maintain a coal bed, everything got MUCH better.  I started the mantra of putting in more wood than I thought would be necessary and things improved.

ac


----------



## Woodsrover

I like to come back to about 10% of a load left in the firebox.  I've got that just about figured out now and haven't come home to a cold boiler in a couple of weeks or better.  It's a learning curve with these things...You'll get her figured out.


----------



## Gasifier

Who has a Wood Gun and storage?


----------



## CTFIRE

Ok. So my fire went out again. Spoke with Darren at AHS. (very patient guy and helpful. Not sure I have had customer support like that ever). Anyway, he said the new control come shipped with the timer to go on every four hours for 10 minutes. To change it, he would need to send me a new chip with a new interval. No charge, just need to send the other one back. We talked maybe every two hours instead of four. He thinks part of the problem might be the demand. I have 3000 sf, but plan to add a 4th zone when I finish the basement and possible a 5th if the wife lets me build a detach 2 car garage with office or apt done the road. In hindsight maybe the 100 wood have been better since I hear these works better when under a load. He suggest I bump the temp in the house up since it has been very mild here in CT. 50's this week.


----------



## Gasifier

It would seem to me that you would want it to cycle on once an hour for a few minutes. Then you would cover even more territory of mild weather. Turning the temperature of the house up does seem like the bass ackwards thing to do to me. Burn more wood and have your house warmer than you need to.? Just sayin.


----------



## avc8130

Gasifier said:


> Who has a Wood Gun and storage?


 
You.  LOL


----------



## CTFIRE

Gasifier said:


> It would seem to me that you would want it to cycle on once an hour for a few minutes. Then you would cover even more territory of mild weather. Turning the temperature of the house up does seem like the bass ackwards thing to do to me. Burn more wood and have your house warmer than you need to.? Just sayin.


I hear ya. The other thing is that since we have lived with oil for 10 years we have gotten used to auto thermostats. House was set on 64 and would go down to 60 at night. Wife always complained about the house be cold. I think she reset the thermostats to 67 and 62 for the overnight. If it can get me dialed in I going to go to 70 and throw caution to the wind. I think I may have her purge it every hour during the day also just to turn the fan on and stoke the coals.


----------



## Woodsrover

Gasifier said:


> It would seem to me that you would want it to cycle on once an hour for a few minutes. Then you would cover even more territory of mild weather. Turning the temperature of the house up does seem like the bass ackwards thing to do to me. Burn more wood and have your house warmer than you need to.? Just sayin.


 
I'm with Gasifier. Even at two hours I think you're going to come home to a cold boiler in this kind of weather. 6 minutes every 80 works for me and I would ask others here with a cycle timer to give you their settings too. Having to send away for a chip is a bit of a pain so you'll want to get it right the first time if you can. Or maybe Darren can send you a couple different choices you can experiment with and send back the ones that don't work for you? Hmmmm....Wonder exactly what these "chips" are. Perhaps you can buy blanks and program them yourself so you can have one for the mild weather and one for the colder months?


----------



## Woodsrover

CTFIRE said:


> I hear ya. The other thing is that since we have lived with oil for 10 years we have gotten used to auto thermostats. House was set on 64 and would go down to 60 at night. Wife always complained about the house be cold. I think she reset the thermostats to 67 and 62 for the overnight. If it can get me dialed in I going to go to 70 and throw caution to the wind. I think I may have her purge it every hour during the day also just to turn the fan on and stoke the coals.


 
Haha! I remember those days! 62 during the day, 56 at night, 66 if there was company coming over. Both zones are set to 70 now and I don't change them. First thing I do when I get home from work is change into shorts and a t-shirt.


----------



## avc8130

Woodsrover said:


> I'm with Gasifier. Even at two hours I think you're going to come home to a cold boiler in this kind of weather. 6 minutes every 80 works for me and I would ask others here with a cycle timer to give you their settings too. Having to send away for a chip is a bit of a pain so you'll want to get it right the first time if you can. Or maybe Darren can send you a couple different choices you can experiment with and send back the ones that don't work for you? Hmmmm....Wonder exactly what these "chips" are. Perhaps you can buy blanks and program them yourself so you can have one for the mild weather and one for the colder months?


 
My cycle timer has 1 clip every 80 mins.  So far, so good.

The "chips" are because he has the fancy new PCB control board.  They have to be programmed by a docking station.

ac


----------



## muncybob

+1 !!

I had tried once every other hour and this did not do the job for us. Maybe you can talk them into both chips and return the one you don't need? I am surprised that AHS chose the 4 hour interval as the default setting!


----------



## mikefrommaine

It can't be that hard to crack the program code. Bet you could sell the fire gremlins sub routine for good money here.


----------



## infinitymike

Me personally, I'll never sell my gremlins.


----------



## Gasifier

avc8130 said:


> You. LOL


 
 Well this needs to change my friends. Even my little old 400 gallons of buffer really helps. All year round.


----------



## Gasifier

infinitymike said:


> Me personally, I'll never sell my gremlins.


 
I let my Gun go to rippin and roarin and burned mine out a long time ago. I think they are ugly little _ _ _ _ _ _ s.


----------



## Fred61

CTFIRE said:


> stoke the coals



If you mean stir the coals, I suggest that you just leave them as they sit. If there is a coal glowing in there it is most likely staying alive because of the insulation being provided by the surrounding coals (banking).  Stirring may just bring that one coal to the top and burn out or not maintain enough heat to stay alive. Allowing a small amount of air in the firebox periodically should work. Even though most folks believe the burn chamber is totally sealed at idle, the fact that wood gasses dissipate from the firebox within minutes after shutdown proves that there is some flow through the box unless you think the wood re-absorbs the gasses.


----------



## avc8130

Fred61 said:


> If you mean stir the coals, I suggest that you just leave them as they sit. If there is a coal glowing in there it is most likely staying alive because of the insulation being provided by the surrounding coals (banking). Stirring may just bring that one coal to the top and burn out or not maintain enough heat to stay alive. Allowing a small amount of air in the firebox periodically should work. Even though most folks believe the burn chamber is totally sealed at idle, the fact that wood gasses dissipate from the firebox within minutes after shutdown proves that there is some flow through the box unless you think the wood re-absorbs the gasses.


 
What makes you think the gasses dissipate?  The lack of dissipation is what causes puff backs when the boiler kicks back on sometimes. 

When I first installed my boiler, I had a bunch of leaks at the chimney connector.  This caused me to shut the boiler down in a very smokey state.  I pulled the chimney connector off to re-seal all of the joints.  I was expecting a serious nightmare of smoke from the firebox.  Amazingly, NOTHING came out of the cyclone.  When I opened the wood chamber door, I got a major face full.  The WG seals up quite well.  The only way for gasses in the wood chamber to "get out" is to travel DOWN.  That doesn't happen well without a forced draft.

ac


----------



## avc8130

Gasifier said:


> Well this needs to change my friends. Even my little old 400 gallons of buffer really helps. All year round.


 
Meh.  So far I see no reason to add storage, even through these warm periods.  Spending all the money on storage would just push my payback further out.

ac


----------



## Gasifier

I also think that after a period of time using the Wood Gun it is going to be tough to tell if everything is sealed up nice and tight the way it was when it was new. There may be a very slight leak somewhere around one of the doors that will let air in or out. This may actually help to keep your coals getting some air and staying alive. I am not sure. But not something I would want because of gases possibly also getting out.


----------



## Gasifier

avc8130 said:


> Meh. So far I see no reason to add storage, even through these warm periods. Spending all the money on storage would just push my payback further out.
> 
> ac


 
Pfffff. Payback smayback. Some day I am going to have about 1200 gallons of storage.  And it will be worth it.


----------



## Fred61

avc8130 said:


> What makes you think the gasses dissipate? The lack of dissipation is what causes puff backs when the boiler kicks back on sometimes.
> 
> When I first installed my boiler, I had a bunch of leaks at the chimney connector. This caused me to shut the boiler down in a very smokey state. I pulled the chimney connector off to re-seal all of the joints. I was expecting a serious nightmare of smoke from the firebox. Amazingly, NOTHING came out of the cyclone. When I opened the wood chamber door, I got a major face full. The WG seals up quite well. The only way for gasses in the wood chamber to "get out" is to travel DOWN. That doesn't happen well without a forced draft.
> 
> ac


 Turn on the purge timer within 5 or 10 minutes after shutdown BOOM. Wait 15 or 20 minutes turn on purge timer and no BOOM. How come?


----------



## avc8130

Fred61 said:


> Turn on the purge timer within 5 or 10 minutes after shutdown BOOM. Wait 15 or 20 minutes turn on purge timer and no BOOM. How come?


 
Not enough oxygen available for the fuel?

Where do you think the gasses go? Past one of the silicone seals? (honest question)

Frankly, I couldn't care less exactly how this boiler works. I'm running with no storage and have a warm house with very little human interaction. Put wood in it in the morning. Put wood in it in the afternoon. It was a literal plug and play for my oil burner. No crazy controls. No crazy monitoring. Just heat.


----------



## avc8130

Gasifier said:


> Pfffff. Payback smayback. Some day I am going to have about 1200 gallons of storage. And it will be worth it.


 
I don't know, I do the calculations and it seems like I would need a HUGE quantity of storage to buy myself any real duration of heat.  Right now it is very convenient for me to load the WG twice/day.  If I couldn't knock that down to a solid "once", there just is no reason in my mind to do a partial.

ac


----------



## Fred61

avc8130 said:


> Frankly, I couldn't care less exactly how this boiler works. I'm running with no storage and have a warm house with very little human interaction


I've seen that statement more than once in your posts but you continue to challenge statements made by others about the workings of the boiler.


----------



## avc8130

Fred61 said:


> I've seen that statement more than once in your posts but you continue to challenge statements made by others about the workings of the boiler.


 
Take what you will.  There are about 1/2 dozen actual current WG owners actively posting on this thread.  All working together to get the boilers operating as easily and reliably as possible. 

Clearly we are all learning together and helping each other.  No Wood Gun owner really gives a crap about "idle" vs "out".  Only OTHER or FORMER owners REALLY care. 

WG owners just care about making heat.  Keeping the boiler running, keeping it gassifying, reloading at the optimal time, etc etc etc.


----------



## mikefrommaine

avc8130 said:


> Take what you will.  There are about 1/2 dozen actual current WG owners actively posting on this thread.  All working together to get the boilers operating as easily and reliably as possible.
> 
> .


And yet you still haven't figured out how to turn fire on and off? :-/

Damn laws of physics... I just can't go to bed until you admit idleing = off, cycling or as the super cool frohlingers say slumbering.


----------



## avc8130

mikefrommaine said:


> And yet you still haven't figured out how to turn fire on and off? :-/
> 
> Damn laws of physics... I just can't go to bed until you admit idleing = off, cycling or as the super cool frohlingers say slumbering.


 
Sorry for your sleepless nights.

I hope you aren't up all night worrying about the costs of repairing that "BMW" down the road...


----------



## infinitymike

Here we go again. These WG debates always end up like this. Can't we all just play nice in the sandbox. 
And while we are playing nice, we all need to agree that the WG turns off and on a fire.


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> Here we go again. These WG debates always end up like this. Can't we all just play nice in the sandbox.
> And while we are playing nice, we all need to agree that the WG turns off and on a fire.


 
Here I thought we established our own sandbox....


----------



## infinitymike

True but it looks like some of the other kids in the park are jealous and want to play with us. 
I'm ok with that as long as they follow our rules.


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> True but it looks like some of the other kids in the park are jealous and want to play with us.
> I'm ok with that as long as they follow our rules.


 
In our sand box wood boilers don't idle and forklifts are tractors.  AHAHAHAHA


----------



## infinitymike

My honest and naive question to other gasifiers is this: 
When your unit has reached it's operating temp and goes into idle, off, slumber or cylcing mode
Does your fan continue to operate or do you continue to exhaust from the stack?
The reason I ask this is because everyone (except WGrs) seem to be worried about creosote in their flues. 
Which would occur if the unit was smoldering and allowing that exhaust out into the flue.


----------



## Fred61

avc8130 said:


> Take what you will. There are about 1/2 dozen actual current WG owners actively posting on this thread. All working together to get the boilers operating as easily and reliably as possible.
> 
> Clearly we are all learning together and helping each other. No Wood Gun owner really gives a crap about "idle" vs "out". Only OTHER or FORMER owners REALLY care.
> 
> WG owners just care about making heat. Keeping the boiler running, keeping it gassifying, reloading at the optimal time, etc etc etc.


 I have followed this thread because it's like reading a history of my experiences with my old gun with the worn center bricks, explosions, lost fires, clogged cyclones, leaking flues, muddy ash, hot flues, ash in flues, interfering smoke flap, etc,etc. I have given my opinion as to how some of these problems can be dealt with and what to expect and have met resistance all the way.
There seems to be an awful lot of discussion on these subject, like over 800 entries, for people that don't "give a crap". I'm free from the problems since I am a "FORMER" owner even though it looks like I "REALLY care".


----------



## infinitymike

For what it's worth Fred I do appreciate your experience and I actually believe you do care to help us navigate through our new experiences. 
My question to you would be does your eko idle or shut down the same way a WG does. 
I'm not trying to be a jerk I'm asking an honest question. 
I don't think I heard you disagree with us on that regard. But I also suffer from selective memory loss so maybe you have.


----------



## mikefrommaine

My fan slows down progressively to 50 % of its output as the boiler nears the setpoint and then OFF when it reaches the setpoint.

Instead of a motorized damper it uses a weighted metal flap to shut down the only and very small (~ 2" x2") opening. The fire goes OUT! The boiler then cycles on and off. How often is adjustable down to 1 sec every 5 minutes and up to 60 sec every 99 minutes. I have mine set for something like on for 10 sec every 90 minutes. Only to make sure there aren't too many gasses built up in the chamber.

Honestly I have never had mine idle for that long. I try to match the amount of wood to the heat demand I expect. From what I have read here people are concerned that if the boiler is cycling on and off (ideling) then that is when you are making creosote. I am adding storage so I can have fewer fires with more wood in the chamber.

Woodguns strategy of loading it up and then turning it off/on seems contradictory to everything else I have read about efficient wood burning, ie small hot fires with water storage to save the heat for later. But if it works what do I know.

But then again I don't have clogged nozzles, water in my ashes, a smelly basement, back puffing or a clogged cyclone.


----------



## Gasifier

Once you get a Gun figured out, and are burning dry wood, with regular cleaning, these issues are gone. And with water storage, it also helps the system be more mellow. No matter what boiler you had in the past, or have now, everyone who has had it, knows that storage is the way to go. I would not hesitate to say that the Wood Gun's efficiency is up there with anyone elses boilers. I heat 4200 sq.ft. house, 900 sq.ft. garage, and DHW for a five member family. Last year I went through about 8 cord of wood. A mild winter though. If it was a cold winter, I could see going through 10 cord. I think that is good. My insulation is good in some places and not so good in others. So averaged out, pretty decent insulation.


----------



## maple1

infinitymike said:


> My honest and naive question to other gasifiers is this:
> When your unit has reached it's operating temp and goes into idle, off, slumber or cylcing mode
> Does your fan continue to operate or do you continue to exhaust from the stack?
> The reason I ask this is because everyone (except WGrs) seem to be worried about creosote in their flues.
> Which would occur if the unit was smoldering and allowing that exhaust out into the flue.


 
My gassifier has no fan, doesn't (can't) idle, and simply burns wide open until the fuel is all gone. If it gets too hot (that would be above, not at, operating temp), it can dump to the house zones - but that hasn't happened yet, the storage has been absorbing all the extra heat.

But about your last two lines - I believe Gasifier made some flue/smoke pipe changes in the off-season (going to all double wall insulated?) because he was getting creosote buildup in his chimney. So doesn't that mean his WG was (still is?) actually smoldering & allowing exhaust out into the flue?

I'm not pro-this or anti-anything - I think we're all basically doing the same thing with a few minor differences that don't amount to a whole lot. Different strokes for different situations & preferences, I'd say.


----------



## Coal Reaper

been following this thread trying to learn as much as i can. 

with regards to timers and such, it sounds like you guys could make good use of a time delay relay.  with minor motor control knowledge, this timer will start ticking (1 hours, 80 mins, 2 hours, 4 hours, whatever you want) exactly when the unit shuts down due to high temp or no call for heat.  it will reset itself (might have to add another relay if you dont get a fancy one) after its own event and that will keep the WG cycling.  no problem if there is a call for heat before the timer runs out, the timer relay will just reset again for your predetermined length of time.  this way it will not try to turn on due to timer 5 minutes after the heat load is met just because that is what the programmable 24 hour timer is telling it to do.  i dont know exactly how you would wire this into your low temp cutoff, but that is for you current WGers to figure out.


----------



## muncybob

Coal Reaper said:


> been following this thread trying to learn as much as i can.
> 
> with regards to timers and such, it sounds like you guys could make good use of a time delay relay. with minor motor control knowledge, this timer will start ticking (1 hours, 80 mins, 2 hours, 4 hours, whatever you want) exactly when the unit shuts down due to high temp or no call for heat. it will reset itself (might have to add another relay if you dont get a fancy one) after its own event and that will keep the WG cycling. no problem if there is a call for heat before the timer runs out, the timer relay will just reset again for your predetermined length of time. this way it will not try to turn on due to timer 5 minutes after the heat load is met just because that is what the programmable 24 hour timer is telling it to do. i dont know exactly how you would wire this into your low temp cutoff, but that is for you current WGers to figure out.


 
This is an interesting idea and probably would avoid the back puff problem entirely. Of course, the best way to avoid this is just what Gas has said...storage! Perhaps one day I'll have the room and $$ to put in storage. In the meantime I would be happy to learn from somebody much smarter than I am to investigate this option.

It is interesting for me to note that all the "items" Fred detailed with the exception of worn nozzle were items I did indeed experience in my first year due in large part to the learning curve, lack of large amount of storage and less than desirable wood. ALL of those issues are now dealt with and history for me. As for the nozzle, is it not something that would be a wear item on any boiler just like tires and brakes are on a car?


----------



## avc8130

muncybob said:


> This is an interesting idea and probably would avoid the back puff problem entirely. Of course, the best way to avoid this is just what Gas has said...storage! Perhaps one day I'll have the room and $$ to put in storage. In the meantime I would be happy to learn from somebody much smarter than I am to investigate this option.
> 
> It is interesting for me to note that all the "items" Fred detailed with the exception of worn nozzle were items I did indeed experience in my first year due in large part to the learning curve, lack of large amount of storage and less than desirable wood. ALL of those issues are now dealt with and history for me. As for the nozzle, is it not something that would be a wear item on any boiler just like tires and brakes are on a car?


 
Exactly.  All of those "issues" appear to go away once the operator is trained.

YES.  Nozzle wear occurs on any gassifier.  There are many threads about guys rigging up fire brick and other means to extend nozzle life on non-WGs. I plan to make some steel nozzles when my stock cement ones wear out. 

My nozzles have never clogged.  When I reload I simply use the included tool to rake through the coals and send the ash down through the nozzle. 

I plan to bring my air intake outside.  This will prevent back-puffing from mattering, and keep the WG from drawing heated air up my chimney.  Win/win.

Clogged cyclone?  I'll take it.  This is by far the easiest way to deal with ashes I have ever seen.  A simple drawer where 90% of the ash that matters winds up.  Every 3 days I throw 2 clips and dump the pan.  I think the only instances of clogged cyclones were from guys getting lazy and waiting weeks.

Smelly basement?  Fixed.  Poor chimney connector install.

A full reload takes me <3 minutes (I know because I set the purge timer for 3 mins and it is always still running when I walk away).  6 mins/day for heat.  Seems pretty easy.

Everybody seems to be satisfied with THEIR modern wood boiler.  I don't really understand why there are always arguments and bashing against the WG.  The damn thing works.  Get the install right, learn how to run it and it is "wood in=heat out".  I scoured the forum and I don't see the hatred from non-owners against Econoburn, BMW, Tarm or any of the others. Maybe the WG owners need to go on a crusade.  Bashing all of the "fancy" boiler owners and demonizing storage and monitoring.

Sheesh.

ac


----------



## Fred61

If I had brought this site up earlier than Mike, my response would have been the same, almost word for word. Our units are similar except one has forced draft and one induced draft. I also match wood to demand and only idle (combustion fan off) for approximatelt 10 minutes when storage temp is approaching maximum. I don't even know what my cycle timer is set at and see no need to even find out. If wood load is matched correctly, there is only a nice thick load of coals that don't produce much nasty stuff that coats the fire box. If I loaded too much wood for demand, I just shut off the boiler master switch and it leaves me with a nice bed of charcoal to start tomorrow's fire. If I didn't load enough wood, I don't add more because storage doesn't need to be at the high setpoint to go 24 hours so I don't push to get every last BTU out of my load. I still shut it down because the left over charcoal in of more value to me than one more degree on the thermometer.
For some reason you're have the misconception that Biomass, EKO, etc are getting creosote in their flues. That could not be further from the fact. There have been posts on here with  operators that have experienced the problem but there were other circumstances involved.
The only reason I can see as to why idle, shut off, slumber definations are such an obsession is because that statement in the salesman's pitch is the reason you bought the unit.
A few gunners on here have figured out what's going on and have taken steps to work around the idiosyncrasies of the Wood Gun. Gassifier is one that comes to mind.


----------



## maple1

I don't think there's hatred against the Wood Gun - I think I've seen it recommended as a boiler choice as much as any other unit here.

I do think there might be some difference of opinion with how WG seems to claim it deals with idling differently than the rest - i.e. relighting from hot refractory - when it seems to be more like they operate more the same as the rest and aren't really that different (some read 'better') - i.e. relighting from a still-burning ember. Maybe they do a better job at keeping the ember going longer - I don't know - but what some might read as hatred towards the WG I'd construe as some defending their own unit against what they feel to be an unfair assessment on different operating principles and implied inferiority.

Did that even make sense?


----------



## Fred61

Although I think that bringing in outside air is a good Idea, let me tell you about my experiences with that.
Most of the times I had explosions they were self inflicted. Starting the purge timer shortly after shutdown was the culpret. My Gun didn't short cycle much because it was a little large for the load. The smoke was hard to take but when I saw the flame that came with some I decided to go through the wall with it. It became a magnet for hornets and wasps that were looking for a new place to build a home so I got a nice little aluminum hood (the ones they use on single 100 lb propane tanks) Looked good. I didn't have to look at a hole in the wall. I then put 1/8 inch hardware cloth on the opening.The first explosion sent it about thirty feet out into the back yard with about 10 square inches of cedar siding attached. Decided that the mesh didn't allow the gas to escape quick enough so I removed it. Next explosion did the same thing. I concluded after a few more that the gasses don't like to turn corners.


----------



## avc8130

Fred61 said:


> Although I think that bringing in outside air is a good Idea, let me tell you about my experiences with that.
> Most of the times I had explosions they were self inflicted. Starting the purge timer shortly after shutdown was the culpret. My Gun didn't short cycle much because it was a little large for the load. The smoke was hard to take but when I saw the flame that came with some I decided to go through the wall with it. It became a magnet for hornets and wasps that were looking for a new place to build a home so I got a nice little aluminum hood (the ones they use on single 100 lb propane tanks) Looked good. I didn't have to look at a hole in the wall. I then put 1/8 inch hardware cloth on the opening.The first explosion sent it about thirty feet out into the back yard with about 10 square inches of cedar siding attached. Decided that the mesh didn't allow the gas to escape quick enough so I removed it. Next explosion did the same thing. I concluded after a few more that the gasses don't like to turn corners.


 
Hmm.  I appreciate the experience. 

Did you bring your intake down to the floor first and then back up? 

The only 2 times that I have gotten a puff were when the cycle timer kicked on just after the boiler shut down from a normal cycle. 

If Coal Reaper's idea with the relay resolves that, I shouldn't have much to worry about with the explosions.

ac


----------



## muncybob

To avoid these "explosions" I have done nothing other than to avoid exactly what Fred states, which IMHO is operator error, and not purge soon after a shut down. I have not had one of these happen except in the very early days of operating the boiler. Actually, most of the initial shortcomings for me with this boiler were operator error of one form or another. 

What is the advantage to bringing in outside air? I suspect none for me as my basement is certainly not a sealed environment?


----------



## avc8130

muncybob said:


> To avoid these "explosions" I have done nothing other than to avoid exactly what Fred states, which IMHO is operator error, and not purge soon after a shut down. I have not had one of these happen except in the very early days of operating the boiler. Actually, most of the initial shortcomings for me with this boiler were operator error of one form or another.
> 
> What is the advantage to bringing in outside air? I suspect none for me as my basement is certainly not a sealed environment?


 
Trust me, I (myself) am not causing the explosions. Only the cycle timer does.  When I have run down stairs to the smoke detector going off, the  cycle timer has always been engaged. 

My basement isn't sealed either.  I have 1980 steel windows and a set of hurricane doors.  LOL

ac


----------



## Woodsrover

I have my intake air coming from outside.  Installed it that way from the start...A plumber buddy of mine help/did the install and has done a few others and this is what he always does.  My little house has a pretty tight basement so I think its a good idea anyway.  I've heard a puff-back once when I was at home and came home another time to find the intake flap shut so I'm assuming it happened then too.  Not that it's really been a problem for me but I like the idea of an automatic-reset timer.  Maybe I'll poke around the Grainger catalog and see what's there.


----------



## Coal Reaper

"repeat cycle time delay relay" may be just what you need.  if you have a grainger book then you might also have an msc, page 3566 in my old 2009/2010 msc book.  however, this ones range only goes to 30 minutes.  you would just need to find a what to cut power to the relay when the WG is doing its own thing.


----------



## Fred61

avc8130 said:


> Did you bring your intake down to the floor first and then back up?


I honestly don't remember. It didn't interfere with the door if I remember correctly so it couldn't have gone too far down.


----------



## mikefrommaine

Fred61 said:


> The only reason I can see as to why idle, shut off, slumber definations are such an obsession is because that statement in the salesman's pitch is the reason you bought the unit..


 That sales pitch was why I didn't buy a woodgun. At first I liked the apparent simplicity and the off the shelf controls. But telling me that I could stuff it full like an OWB, let it cycle on and off and be fine.... Just as long as you 'upgrade' to stainless. Didn't pass the straight face test for me. Sounded more like what I'd expect to hear from Larry B at the county fair.


----------



## avc8130

mikefrommaine said:


> That sales pitch was why I didn't buy a woodgun. At first I liked the apparent simplicity and the off the shelf controls. But telling me that I could stuff it full like an OWB, let it cycle on and off and be fine.... Just as long as you 'upgrade' to stainless. Didn't pass the straight face test for me. Sounded more like what I'd expect to hear from Larry B at the county fair.


 
So far, so good over here using that strategy.

I'll let you know when it fails.


----------



## Woodsrover

mikefrommaine said:


> That sales pitch was why I didn't buy a woodgun. At first I liked the apparent simplicity and the off the shelf controls. But telling me that I could stuff it full like an OWB, let it cycle on and off and be fine.... Just as long as you 'upgrade' to stainless. Didn't pass the straight face test for me. Sounded more like what I'd expect to hear from Larry B at the county fair.


 
Actually, ah, yes, that's exactly right.  I'll admit there are some quirks with these things you need to work through but once you do they're as simple as it gets, plus no need for storage and no need for a dump zone.  Put wood in it a couple times a day and forget about it.  Even if that's not how your boiler works I would want a stainless firebox.  Regardless of the brand or how they operate, its the corrosion inside the firebox that kills a boiler.


----------



## Coal Reaper

muncybob said:


> This is an interesting idea and probably would avoid the back puff problem entirely. Of course, the best way to avoid this is just what Gas has said...storage! Perhaps one day I'll have the room and $$ to put in storage. In the meantime I would be happy to learn from somebody much smarter than I am to investigate this option.
> 
> It is interesting for me to note that all the "items" Fred detailed with the exception of worn nozzle were items I did indeed experience in my first year due in large part to the learning curve, lack of large amount of storage and less than desirable wood. ALL of those issues are now dealt with and history for me. As for the nozzle, is it not something that would be a wear item on any boiler just like tires and brakes are on a car?


 
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT2?PMPXNO=23974495&PMTERM=77981934

this here.  but without knowing the schematics of the WG i would think you will need another NC relay to cut the power going to this timer when the WG is on due to call for heat.  then when WG shuts down the NC relay will close and start the timer all over again.


----------



## Fred61

One thing that came to mind on bringing in outside air which you should know in advance is thay the cold air entering really cools the box and flap causing the flap to collect condensation. It makes for a pretty gooy, smelly mess in the box. I remember spooning out the puddle on several occasions. The other problem as a result of the condensation was that it caused the silicone gasket on the flap to strech which caused it to ripple, eventually causing it to not close tightly and allow air into the firebox. Mine went into overheat a couple times. Blew the t/p valve and made some steam. First time it took a few minutes to locate the problem.


----------



## avc8130

Fred61 said:


> One thing that came to mind on bringing in outside air which you should know in advance is thay the cold air entering really cools the box and flap causing the flap to collect condensation. It makes for a pretty gooy, smelly mess in the box. I remember spooning out the puddle on several occasions. The other problem as a result of the condensation was that it caused the silicone gasket on the flap to strech which caused it to ripple, eventually causing it to not close tightly and allow air into the firebox. Mine went into overheat a couple times. Blew the t/p valve and made some steam. First time it took a few minutes to locate the problem.


 
I could see how that would occur.  They put a good slope on the tube from the flapper into the fire.  Any creosote that happens in there seems to drip well into the firebox and burn.  There is quite a lip from the box to the tube though, so anything that collected there wouldn't be going anywhere.  Good warning!

I really think Coal Reaper's idea might be the ideal solution.  In fact, I am curious as to why AHS didn't just do it that way.  It's significantly cheaper than the timer.

ac


----------



## Fred61

avc8130 said:


> I really think Coal Reaper's idea might be the ideal solution. In fact, I am curious as to why AHS didn't just do it that way. It's significantly cheaper than the timer


I like it too!


----------



## ewdudley

Coal Reaper said:


> http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT2?PMPXNO=23974495&PMTERM=77981934
> 
> this here.  but without knowing the schematics of the WG i would think you will need another NC relay to cut the power going to this timer when the WG is on due to call for heat.  then when WG shuts down the NC relay will close and start the timer all over again.



Here's the SESTOS B2E, same idea, just search for digital timer on ebay and it'll come up.  Has a configurable 'reset' input to hold off the timing cycle until woodgun shuts down, but still going to need a spare set of contacts to gate the call to heat signal.

http://sestos-hk.com/english/download/B2E-en.pdf


----------



## avc8130

ewdudley said:


> Here's the SESTOS B2E, same idea, just search for digital timer on ebay and it'll come up. Has a configurable 'reset' input to hold off the timing cycle until woodgun shuts down, but still going to need a spare set of contacts to gate the call to heat signal.
> 
> http://sestos-hk.com/english/download/B2E-en.pdf


 
DIGITAL things on my Wood Gun?!?!?!  Unacceptable.  What do you think this is, a BMW?

LOL


----------



## ewdudley

avc8130 said:


> DIGITAL things on my Wood Gun?!?!?!  Unacceptable.  What do you think this is, a BMW?
> 
> LOL


But look, it's SHINY!


----------



## Coal Reaper

ewdudley said:


> But look, it's SHINY!
> 
> View attachment 84850


Too much bling!  It seems that you WGers are more about KISS than any of the other boiler operators. Dont stray from that!


----------



## Coal Reaper

Another thought: the NC relay would need to be comtrolled by the call for heat signal, not the power for the blower or damper. If i get some time i will look at the manual for WG and try to draw this up so it makes a little more sense. Need to make a trip to their shop too to do some hands on research.


----------



## mikefrommaine

avc8130 said:


> DIGITAL things on my Wood Gun?!?!?! Unacceptable. What do you think this is, a BMW?
> 
> LOL


 
you can upgrade a woodgun all you want...




but it will never be a bmw


----------



## Woodsrover

Coal Reaper said:


> Too much bling! It seems that you WGers are more about KISS than any of the other boiler operators. Dont stray from that!


 
I agree completely.  I'd be slow to start installing electronic gadgets for the lone reason of eliminating puff-backs.  If your air intake is plumbed to the outside there's no reason to worry about it.  If you are worried about it, I'd fabricate and install a gravity controlled door on the intake that opens with the draft but would slam shut in the event of a puff-back.

Yes, the idea of a resetting timer is a good one, but like a BMW, everything electrical eventually fails.  That is an absolute truth.  Keep it simple.


----------



## Woodsrover

mikefrommaine said:


> you can upgrade a woodgun all you want...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but it will never be a bmw


 

Eh, I'd liken it more to putting electric windows in this.


----------



## Fred61

I'm not saying this to bash Wood Gun but I think you guys are confusing simple with primitive. My EKO is simple. Two boxes stacked atop one another with a hole between them. No motorized damper, several fewer lineal feet of door gasket, burns up, burns down, less heat radiation due to better insulation and simple designs on the interior. Take another look with an open mind and you'll find more. I think you'll find that Wood Gun is much more complex with more things that can go wrong.

I hope the guys that I have been conversing with on here get a long life out of their Guns. My opinions are obviously affected by my past experiences.


----------



## maple1

Coal Reaper said:


> Too much bling! It seems that you WGers are more about KISS than any of the other boiler operators. Dont stray from that!


 
Sorry, the KISS line starts behind me.


----------



## avc8130

Fred61 said:


> I'm not saying this to bash Wood Gun but I think you guys are confusing simple with primitive. My EKO is simple. Two boxes stacked atop one another with a hole between them. No motorized damper, several fewer lineal feet of door gasket, burns up, burns down, less heat radiation due to better insulation and simple designs on the interior. Take another look with an open mind and you'll find more. I think you'll find that Wood Gun is much more complex with more things that can go wrong.
> 
> I hope the guys that I have been conversing with on here get a long life out of their Guns. My opinions are obviously affected by my past experiences.


 
For me it is less about things to "go wrong" and more about "parts availability". 

I like that all of the controls and gaskets are easy to find and readily available from many local and internet suppliers.  I don't have to worry about a control box that is made specifically for my wood boiler in another continent, imported by one source in the US.


----------



## Coal Reaper

maple1 said:


> Sorry, the KISS line starts behind me.


That very well may be so maple. Smokeless heat is also on my list of places to visit to help me decide what boiler is right for me.


----------



## avc8130

Fred61 said:


> I'm not saying this to bash Wood Gun but I think you guys are confusing simple with primitive. My EKO is simple. Two boxes stacked atop one another with a hole between them. No motorized damper, several fewer lineal feet of door gasket, burns up, burns down, less heat radiation due to better insulation and simple designs on the interior. Take another look with an open mind and you'll find more. I think you'll find that Wood Gun is much more complex with more things that can go wrong.
> 
> I hope the guys that I have been conversing with on here get a long life out of their Guns. My opinions are obviously affected by my past experiences.


 
Not to bash the EKO, but I just did a quick search.  Within the 1st page of results I found the following:
1. Failing silicone seals.
2. Proprietary control system failures.
3. Nozzle failure (to the point that some are cobbling together fire brick).
4. Complete refractory failing.
5. An entire "sticky" devoted just to trying to get one running properly.

My point?  Certainly not that the EKO is a POS, just that all wood boilers have their issues.  The "technology" is advancing faster than it is possible to get long term data on a given design.  The sales are too small in comparison to oil/gas boilers to really prove out and move changes quickly.  One thing that is common with all modern wood boilers: their owners are happy and warm.  I KNOW I am.

ac


----------



## Coal Reaper

Pr





Fred61 said:


> I'm not saying this to bash Wood Gun but I think you guys are confusing simple with primitive. My EKO is simple. Two boxes stacked atop one another with a hole between them. No motorized damper, several fewer lineal feet of door gasket, burns up, burns down, less heat radiation due to better insulation and simple designs on the interior. Take another look with an open mind and you'll find more. I think you'll find that Wood Gun is much more complex with more things that can go wrong.
> 
> I hope the guys that I have been conversing with on here get a long life out of their Guns. My opinions are obviously affected by my past experiences.



As far as primitive is concerned, remember that we are dealing with the original method for creating heat. Yes you are messing around with downdraft gasification now, but it all started from rubbing two sticks together before even the wheel was around. 

Primitive can easily be fixed or have controls bypassed temporarily and run manually in order to make heat perhaps.  I am just starting my journey to explore all options (preferably local manufacturers).

Seems like most of you are fairly new WG owners. How long has everybody had theirs?


----------



## Fred61

Coal Reaper said:


> How long has everybody had theirs?


I ran mine for 9 years before I disposed of it. One advantage the present owners have is this site. There was nothing like this when I had mine. I was all alone out there with with the problems and had to diagnose and overcome them on my own.


----------



## infinitymike

EWD,

It's good to have you back brother.


----------



## mikefrommaine

avc8130 said:


> For me it is less about things to "go wrong" and more about "parts availability".
> 
> I like that all of the controls and gaskets are easy to find and readily available from many local and internet suppliers.  I don't have to worry about a control box that is made specifically for my wood boiler in another continent, imported by one source in the US.



Ahona sells a made in the USA controller that is a direct replacement.

http://www.ahona.com/products.html
Parts was why I initially wanted the woodgun but I figured for about the cost of a cycle timer I could have a spare rk2001 on the shelf. And it's not like i couldnt convert my boiler to run off aquastats and cycle timers if I wanted. Others have done it.

And I'd say the fine tuning stickies are pretty similar to this thread, users figuring out how to get their boilers to run smooth. Though it didn't take quite as long!


----------



## Fred61

In an emergency I can get my boiler to run with a couple of wire nuts.


----------



## avc8130

mikefrommaine said:


> Ahona sells a made in the USA controller that is a direct replacement.
> 
> http://www.ahona.com/products.html
> Parts was why I initially wanted the woodgun but I figured for about the cost of a cycle timer I could have a spare rk2001 on the shelf. And it's not like i couldnt convert my boiler to run off aquastats and cycle timers if I wanted. Others have done it.
> 
> And I'd say the fine tuning stickies are pretty similar to this thread, users figuring out how to get their boilers to run smooth. Though it didn't take quite as long!


 
Good to see AHONA stepping up and offering parts.  However, that is still just 1 US source.  Honeywell aquastats and damper motors are common components.  Lowes and Home Depot sell the aquastats in stock, Grainger and MSC sell the damper motors.  The draft fan is a std AC motor, Dayton or Baldor will always have something that fits. 

Quite as long?  I made a spreadsheet when I first started running my boiler.  Within 2 days it was completely obvious that I just needed to put enough wood in during both the morning and afternoon loading.  There is nothing to "tune" with the WG.  The only learning curve to running it was "enough wood".  Just about everything else discussed here has been installation.

ac


----------



## muncybob

4th year with my boiler, going on 17+ cords burned thus far. Replaced door gasket after year 1(still looks good today), made my own flap for the air intake box after year 2.....that's it for "repairs".

No doubt this forum and the internet as a whole is a great help no matter what brand wood burner you own. I can appreciate the situations Fred and others may have had in the past without these resources. Using a little help from my friends I have been able to correct a few initial issues I had with the WG and I know many others have done the same regardless of the unit they run. For some an "issue" is a big deal and for others it is not. As an example, it has been printed in this forum that the creosote build up in the fresh air intake box was an issue...seems a big issue at that.  To me the creosote is not an issue at all, I use the tool AHS supplies to push any build up in the intake tube back into the firebox during my weekly cleaning...simple and quick.

I was surprised that AHS did not supply my boiler with the rope type gasket and that the flap was not a better build quality but those issues were resolved easily and fairly cheaply. Other than those I don't see any signs of what I would consider premature wear, perhaps the next few years will show otherwise. YMMV.


----------



## avc8130

muncybob said:


> 4th year with my boiler, going on 17+ cords burned thus far. Replaced door gasket after year 1(still looks good today), made my own flap for the air intake box after year 2.....that's it for "repairs".
> 
> No doubt this forum and the internet as a whole is a great help no matter what brand wood burner you own. I can appreciate the situations Fred and others may have had in the past without these resources. Using a little help from my friends I have been able to correct a few initial issues I had with the WG and I know many others have done the same regardless of the unit they run. For some an "issue" is a big deal and for others it is not. As an example, it has been printed in this forum that the creosote build up in the fresh air intake box was an issue...seems a big issue at that. To me the creosote is not an issue at all, I use the tool AHS supplies to push any build up in the intake tube back into the firebox during my weekly cleaning...simple and quick.
> 
> I was surprised that AHS did not supply my boiler with the rope type gasket and that the flap was not a better build quality but those issues were resolved easily and fairly cheaply. Other than those I don't see any signs of what I would consider premature wear, perhaps the next few years will show otherwise. YMMV.


 
Where are you surprised about the lack of a rope gasket?  Both of my gassification chamber doors have a rope gasket.  The wood door uses the fancier silicone on mine.

Care to elaborate about the flap? 

How do your nozzles look after 17 cord?

I do the same thing during my cleanings: the AHS tool seems to work perfect for just about anything.   I rally haven't noticed much creosote after my initial build-up from the first firing from 50F boiler water. 

ac


----------



## muncybob

They installed the silicon one on my rear door...it didn't last too long!
The flap metal piece that faces the firebox was thin and wore away. Had a buddy cut up some thicker SS ones(both interior and exterior) and also cut some rubber seals.
Nozzles are starting to show wear but I think I'll be good until next heating season. If I can find some metal grates that can handle the temps in the firebox I may try to get another year or 2 out of them.


----------



## Fred61

For me it was alot of bad things  that added up. You have done well with your center bricks. Your mention brought to mind one thing that rubbed me wrong. There were years when I replaced the bricks every year. At that time in the mid 80s the cost of the bricks was equal to three to four hundred gallons of fuel oil. The bricks are cheaper now and you know where oil went.


----------



## avc8130

Fred61 said:


> For me it was alot of bad things that added up. You have done well with your center bricks. Your mention brought to mind one thing that rubbed me wrong. There were years when I replaced the bricks every year. At that time in the mid 80s the cost of the bricks was equal to three to four hundred gallons of fuel oil. The bricks are cheaper now and you know where oil went.


 
Yeah, that would be stupid.  The whole point of burning wood is to be "ahead" of burning oil.  If the math didn't work...
ac


----------



## muncybob

I guess the bricks are made of a different material these days? I did order an extra set of nozzle brick 2 years ago thinking this year would be time to replace...it's getting close. If I remember correctly the manul states you should be getting about 15 cords per set, I'm hoping to make it 20+


----------



## mikefrommaine

avc8130 said:


> Good to see AHONA stepping up and offering parts.  However, that is still just 1 US source.  Honeywell aquastats and damper motors are common components.  Lowes and Home Depot sell the aquastats in stock, Grainger and MSC sell the damper motors.  The draft fan is a std AC motor, Dayton or Baldor will always have something that fits.
> 
> Quite as long?  I made a spreadsheet when I first started running my boiler.  Within 2 days it was completely obvious that I just needed to put enough wood in during both the morning and afternoon loading.  There is nothing to "tune" with the WG.  The only learning curve to running it was "enough wood".  Just about everything else discussed here has been installation.
> 
> ac


There are plenty of other controllers available that would work. But the rk2001 seems to be an industry  standard as several different mfrs use it. But if you want USA made it is available through ahona.

I'm typing this next part slowly so you understand what I am saying. 

I could buy the same aquastats, relays, timers, temp gauges etc. and bolt hang or tie them to my boiler. But i dont think the cost/benifit of using standard off the shelf parts is worth it. AHS seems to have come to the same conclusion as they are now using printed circuit boards. I imagine it costs several times as much to replace the functionality of circuit board with standard relays timers and aquastats.

If and when I run into a situation where the controller is broken and a replacement is unavailable I could use the same control strategy you are using with off the shelf parts. You just paid for the standardization up front while I'm taking a calculated risk that if the rk2001 ever breaks then a replacement will be available.

Hope that makes cents.

By fine tuning I meant things like the right settings on the cycle timer to not lose a fire and how to stop the back puffing.


----------



## Fred61

I pretty much have everything I need hanging around to eliminate the boiler controller. I would just need to use my Tekmar control and A 419 aquastat to their full potential instead of using a fraction of their features.
BTW I have the Ekoster 2 control on my unit.


----------



## mikefrommaine

Fred61 said:


> I pretty much have everything I need hanging around to eliminate the boiler controller. I would just need to use my Tekmar control and A 419 aquastat to their full potential instead of using a fraction of their features.
> BTW I have the Ekoster 2 control on my unit.



Probably could make a solar differential control work as well. These boilers are all pretty similar in function and can be controlled many different ways. 

The worst case scenario is for the price of oil to dramatically fall. I suspect that more than one dealer/importer/mfr would go out of business. In that case the nozzle for any boiler would be hard to source.


----------



## Fred61

mikefrommaine said:


> Probably could make a solar differential control work as well. These boilers are all pretty similar in function and can be controlled many different ways.
> 
> The worst case scenario is for the price of oil to dramatically fall. I suspect that more than one dealer/importer/mfr would go out of business. In that case the nozzle for any boiler would be hard to source.


 Even 5 years ago when I purchased mine, Mark at AHONA was already making friends with people in the ceramic molding industry lining up potential sources for the guts of these machines.


----------



## avc8130

mikefrommaine said:


> There are plenty of other controllers available that would work. But the rk2001 seems to be an industry standard as several different mfrs use it. But if you want USA made it is available through ahona.
> 
> I'm typing this next part slowly so you understand what I am saying.
> 
> I could buy the same aquastats, relays, timers, temp gauges etc. and bolt hang or tie them to my boiler. But i dont think the cost/benifit of using standard off the shelf parts is worth it. AHS seems to have come to the same conclusion as they are now using printed circuit boards. I imagine it costs several times as much to replace the functionality of circuit board with standard relays timers and aquastats.
> 
> If and when I run into a situation where the controller is broken and a replacement is unavailable I could use the same control strategy you are using with off the shelf parts. You just paid for the standardization up front while I'm taking a calculated risk that if the rk2001 ever breaks then a replacement will be available.
> 
> Hope that makes cents.
> 
> By fine tuning I meant things like the right settings on the cycle timer to not lose a fire and how to stop the back puffing.


 
Thanks for typing slow, I read it at normal pace.

WRT controls, the stock Woodgun uses 2 aquastats, 1 timer and the damper motor.  The cycle timer is an optional add-on. 

I'm honestly not sure why AHS went to the PCB.  Looking inside that control panel, there are just as many wires and switches as mine.  The aquastats and damper motor still must exist.  They took the $10 purge timer and the optional $90 cycle timer out of the loop.  I'll keep my mechanicals. 

The refractories will always be the big "worry" for long term spare parts.  I like the simplicity of the Wood Gun nozzles.  I could probably cut them out of steel or even use standard fire bricks to make a replacement if they are ever unavailable.  The lower refractory is a bit more complex, but the shape is very beefy and rather simplistic.  I was concerned with some of the fancy "U" shaped refractories the other boilers use.  That looked tougher to re-produce and more fragile to me.

I'm not worried about the price of oil falling driving guys out of business, I'm more worried about the OWB hatred transitioning (wrongly) over to IWB. 

Either way, it  sounds like both of you have zombie apocalypse plans in place for your boilers.  Good jobs.

ac


----------



## Fred61

avc8130 said:


> the shape is very beefy and rather *simplistic*. I was concerned with some of the fancy "U" shaped refractories the other boilers use. That looked *tougher to re-produce* and more fragile to me


I felt a chuckle coming and tried to hold it in. I think I spit on my screen.


----------



## avc8130

I realized I need to correct something else:

AHS didn't switch to a PCB, they switched to a PLC.  BIG difference.  PCB would be 100% proprietary circuit board printed just for this purpose.  Instead, they switch to a PLC (Programmable Logic Controller).  So while it may SEEM like the "chip" needs to be sent back to AHS for any changes (such as increasing cycle frequency from 4 hours to less), they really could be done with a PLC programming station and a computer. 

I guess the digital control is even more zombie proof then I had initially thought.

ac


----------



## avc8130

Fred61 said:


> I felt a chuckle coming and tried to hold it in. I think I spit on my screen.


 
Sorry about your screen. The WG refractory has rather thick cross-sections. The sides are symmetrical, and are composed of stacked sections.  A pretty simple mold could be made to cast the sections. It could be slapped together with a few pieces of wood and PVC pipe.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...-the-new-refractory-brick.88005/#post-1147520

From Christmas 2011 through July 2012 and he claims his "refractory is falling to pieces".

No firsthand experience, but that doesn't sound good. Isolated incident, so it doesn't seem prevalent...others chimed in talking about patching and repairs. It doesn't really matter. The purpose of this thread at this point isn't to bash the EKO, it's to bash the WG...DUH!

ac


----------



## Fred61

I haven't fallen in love with my EKO so criticism doesn't bother me. When you fall in love with your boiler and someone criticizes it and it feels like they are telling you your daughter's ugly, thats considered bashing.


----------



## muncybob

I'm not sure I'm in love with my boiler, but on weekends that we go away and I switch on the oil,  I do suffer from separation anxiety


----------



## avc8130

muncybob said:


> I'm not sure I'm in love with my boiler, but on weekends that we go away and I switch on the oil, I do suffer from separation anxiety


 
Oil?  One of these days I should really take the time to do the oil portion of my WG install.  I mean, the oil backup in one unit was the main reason I went WG in the first place!

ac


----------



## CTFIRE

*Need some help guys*.   Notice tonight a considerable amount of smoke at the stack tip every time it kicked on tonight. Just went down when I notice it was on. Green light was on and fan was running. But I heard a thumping. I remembered reading something about it, but rather than get the laptop I opened the door. Fireball as I open the door. Close the door. There a a raging fire in the box. I darkened it down a bit with some water and shut it down for 5 mins. Thought maybe the holes were blocked so I racked the bottom coals a bit to open. Fire gets going real good, almost too good. I have since closed the air damper in the back to half to limit oxygen. The boiler got to temp and it shut down, but I want the readers digest of what I am doing wrong rather than 30 pages of searching.


----------



## maple1

A wild guess: I think every gasser has creosote build up or accumulate in the primary wood chamber. It comes & goes, burns off some once in a while - maybe yours built up to a point & when it woke itself up (or whatever those WGs do when they relite), it lit off a bunch of creosote?


----------



## avc8130

CTFIRE said:


> *Need some help guys*. Notice tonight a considerable amount of smoke at the stack tip every time it kicked on tonight. Just went down when I notice it was on. Green light was on and fan was running. But I heard a thumping. I remembered reading something about it, but rather than get the laptop I opened the door. Fireball as I open the door. Close the door. There a a raging fire in the box. I darkened it down a bit with some water and shut it down for 5 mins. Thought maybe the holes were blocked so I racked the bottom coals a bit to open. Fire gets going real good, almost too good. I have since closed the air damper in the back to half to limit oxygen. The boiler got to temp and it shut down, but I want the readers digest of what I am doing wrong rather than 30 pages of searching.


 
"Chugging".  Do a quick search.  One cause is you may have had significantly more wood in the boiler during the day when the demand was low today causing the wood to become significantly dryer than ideal.  This causes the fire to burn very quickly and doesn't have enough oxygen to support secondary combustion. When you opened the door, you instantly supplied excess oxygen and HAADOOGAN (Streetfighter anyone?).

Can you recall exactly the chain of events from your last reload to this point?

ac


----------



## CTFIRE

avc8130 said:


> "Chugging". Do a quick search. One cause is you may have had significantly more wood in the boiler during the day when the demand was low today causing the wood to become significantly dryer than ideal. This causes the fire to burn very quickly and doesn't have enough oxygen to support secondary combustion. When you opened the door, you instantly supplied excess oxygen and HAADOOGAN (Streetfighter anyone?).
> 
> Can you recall exactly the chain of events from your last reload to this point?
> 
> ac


Woke up this morning with the fire out. very few embers left. Started a fire this am and got a good bed of coals and loaded it up at 6am. Wife added more wood at 12pm. I added another 10 spilts (only 18inchers) around 5pm. Had a good bed of coals then and all seemed normal. Notice the smoke at 6 and 7pm. seemed more than usually. I had it ok the other day when it was running with no smoke. Damper was fully open as I remember guys saying stuff about avoiding puff backs.


----------



## avc8130

CTFIRE said:


> Woke up this morning with the fire out. very few embers left. Started a fire this am and got a good bed of coals and loaded it up at 6am. Wife added more wood at 12pm. I added another 10 spilts (only 18inchers) around 5pm. Had a good bed of coals then and all seemed normal. Notice the smoke at 6 and 7pm. seemed more than usually. I had it ok the other day when it was running with no smoke. Damper was fully open as I remember guys saying stuff about avoiding puff backs.


 
How big of a coal bed are you building?  Another possibility is too much surface area to burn.  That allows for a lot of combusting area that requires a lot of oxygen to sustain, otherwise it produces a lot of wood gas. 

You seem to load that boiler an awful lot.  I am still amazed since mine works in ways it shouldn't from everything I have read.  I load the darn thing twice/day.  That's it.  No more, no less.  Mine also likes big splits.  Just for giggles, I put splits East/West in the front of the boiler last night to see if "bridging" was really a problem.  Meh, the 180 didn't care.  It burned those splits just fine and had coals to show for it.

ac


----------



## avc8130

CTFIRE said:


> Woke up this morning with the fire out. very few embers left. Started a fire this am and got a good bed of coals and loaded it up at 6am. Wife added more wood at 12pm. I added another 10 spilts (only 18inchers) around 5pm. Had a good bed of coals then and all seemed normal. Notice the smoke at 6 and 7pm. seemed more than usually. I had it ok the other day when it was running with no smoke. Damper was fully open as I remember guys saying stuff about avoiding puff backs.


 
Check this thread:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/woodgun-chugging.83063/#post-1067903

Great resource about chugging.


----------



## CTFIRE

avc8130 said:


> How big of a coal bed are you building? Another possibility is too much surface area to burn. That allows for a lot of combusting area that requires a lot of oxygen to sustain, otherwise it produces a lot of wood gas.
> 
> You seem to load that boiler an awful lot. I am still amazed since mine works in ways it shouldn't from everything I have read. I load the darn thing twice/day. That's it. No more, no less. Mine also likes big splits. Just for giggles, I put splits East/West in the front of the boiler last night to see if "bridging" was really a problem. Meh, the 180 didn't care. It burned those splits just fine and had coals to show for it.
> 
> ac


AVC - The chugging thread was great. I wasn't searching chugging, was searching thumping. Tomato tamato..  Anyway I was loading alot since the fire kept burning totally out. read how everyone said to get a layer of coals and then load up. Not sure how big a bed of coals to build. We are are only 5 days into this adventure. My damper has been wide open this whole time. I think I have been burning through the dry stuff. I will try the damper as 50-60 % closed and see what happens. We've been checking alot because I didn't want it to keep burning out.


----------



## avc8130

CTFIRE said:


> AVC - The chugging thread was great. I wasn't searching chugging, was searching thumping. Tomato tamato.. Anyway I was loading alot since the fire kept burning totally out. read how everyone said to get a layer of coals and then load up. Not sure how big a bed of coals to build. We are are only 5 days into this adventure. My damper has been wide open this whole time. I think I have been burning through the dry stuff. I will try the damper as 50-60 % closed and see what happens. We've been checking alot because I didn't want it to keep burning out.


 
Let's start simple: put more wood in on your reload.

I have tried all different positions of the damper and have found very little difference in operating characteristics.

I find my boiler is running nice with 2-4" of coals over the nozzles.

Today I loaded up at 6:30AM as always. The boiler was not running so I ran the purge. Kicked around the coals and few pieces of large charcoal that remained from the night before's load. I put in wood until it was about even with the bottom of the door all the way across and front to back. Remember I have a 180. I got home at 6pm and went to check on the boiler as always. She was off and sitting at ~190F. I always wait in the evening to catch the boiler firing for the reload since I don't have to be force a reload to be on time for work like the morning. Well, I didn't catch the boiler firing until 9pm when I finally just used the purge. There was still ~3 splits easily identifiable in the boiler along with the coals. I gave it another load similar to this morning.

25F outside...66F inside.

ac


----------



## Fred61

I suspect your wood is split too small and dried out too much. Don't load with wood that you know is wet or green but grab some larger splits that have dried for about a year and try that. ac is correct, once the chugging starts it's self perpetuating ie, explosion, enter air, explosion, etc,etc. Don't panic. I know you're new at this. It's not the last time you'll see this. I know the helpless feeling you experienced.
I'm surprised how much wood you're loading. Is the unit running continuously? If so, are you heating a large storage tank that hasn't gotten to temperature yet or a new cold concrete slab?
It's not unusual for a newbie to feel that their woodburner needs to be full of wood at all times. Even wood parlor stoves. That's why people use 1/3 to1/2 the wood on their second year.


----------



## infinitymike

CTFIRE said:


> *Need some help guys*. Notice tonight a considerable amount of smoke at the stack tip every time it kicked on tonight. Just went down when I notice it was on. Green light was on and fan was running. But I heard a thumping. I remembered reading something about it, but rather than get the laptop I opened the door. Fireball as I open the door. Close the door. There a a raging fire in the box. I darkened it down a bit with some water and shut it down for 5 mins. Thought maybe the holes were blocked so I racked the bottom coals a bit to open. Fire gets going real good, almost too good. I have since closed the air damper in the back to half to limit oxygen. The boiler got to temp and it shut down, but I want the readers digest of what I am doing wrong rather than 30 pages of searching.


 
I don't have a good answer. I can have that same problem a couple times in a row and then not have it at all for a long time.
 I still can't find a pattern in the sequence of events that would help me avoid it.

Heres the sequence for now. It will change as it get colder
First a little background info.
1st floor T-stat set to turn on at 5:00am to 70* and stay like that until 11:00pm when it shuts down to 66*
2nd floor T-stat set to turn on at 5:00am to 70* and shut down to 66* at 7:00am  until 7:30 pm and it back to 70*  till 11pm


go out to boiler at 5:15am to find it running with a bed of coals and a 1/4 to 1/3 full firebox
I fill it up to the top.
It take 2 hours to bring house up to 70* from 66* and the unit shuts off yes it shuts off.
House is holding  heat pretty well but boiler naturally cools off and kicks on around 2 pm according to wife. Still haven't hooked up cycle timer.
I come home around 4-5pm and boiler is on with a good bed of coals and a 1/3 full fire box. isn't that amazing that it was OFF for that long and relit. Man I pay those gremlins well.
I fill it up again. 
House starts to call for heat more often and at 10:30 its usually on again and have about 1/2 full box and I reload for night.
Wake up to find the same thing, 1/4 to 1/3 full box and I start the process all over again.

Now that has only been the last week or so. 
Prior to that  I would come home and the unit was on and almost a full fire box but no fire. Damn Gremlins must have fell a sleep.


----------



## infinitymike

Fred61 said:


> It's not unusual for a newbie to feel that their woodburner needs to be full of wood at all times. That's why people use 1/3 to1/2 the wood on their second year.


 
Gulp. I saw this post after I posted the one right below it.
I guess I'm still a newbie since I keep it full.

But I feel that I don't want it to run out completly where I have no coals or anything and have to start a fire from scratch.
Is that wrong?
Will I really use less wood?


----------



## infinitymike

Just went to refill.
Unit runnning for 15 minutes and zero smoke from stack, roaring sound coming out of stack. Stack temp at 200*
Open it up, nice roaring sound, I have a bed of red hot coals and remants of 4 full splits just above the bottom of the door.
I consider this a 1/4 full. I gently move the 4 splits and they crumble apart. Still have nice raoring gasification sound.
I fill it to the top with 10 splits that are the size of my hand when I touch my pointers and thumbs together.
Still a loud roaring from inside the box.
I close the door and look at the stack and lots of smoke billowing out of stack.
Its too dark and I can't tell if its white or grey.


----------



## infinitymike

Just looked at stack, stil some smoke but not as bad, still can hear the roaring.
The top of my stack is only 12 feet above the ground.
I have a 4' telescoping section coming off the cyclone and two 3' sections above that.


----------



## infinitymike

Unit running for 45 minutes so far and has been reloaded for 30 minutes.
Just peaked outside and no more smoke. 
Came back to type this and the unit shut down.
House still calling for heat but the water has hit 190*.
It will turn back on in about 10 minutes plus or minus.


----------



## infinitymike

Unit back on and some smoke coming from stack.
It looks to be whitish as I can kinda see the trees behind it.
It disappears about 8-10' from the stack.


----------



## infinitymike

Now its very light and  almost gone it disappears about 3-4' from stack


----------



## infinitymike

Unit just shut off again.

The water will continuously circulate through the house and the WG.
The unit will run for 10 minutes and shut off for 10 minutes.
This is what will happen for the next hour or until house hits 70*

The smoke I will see from now on will be the built up gases and steam that is sitting in the firebox as well as the smoke that comes off a fire that is starting to build back up.

EDIT: There actually wasn't any smoke upon the unit turning back on.
So I can assume that everything is up to full temp and gasifies immediately.


----------



## infinitymike

Unit kicked back on and there is zero smoke only heat shimmers.


----------



## infinitymike

The unit will stay off longer now and run shorter because the delta t of the return and supply water is decreasing.
Therefore taking it longer for the unit to cool down.


----------



## Woodsrover

CTFIRE said:


> *Need some help guys*. Notice tonight a considerable amount of smoke at the stack tip every time it kicked on tonight. Just went down when I notice it was on. Green light was on and fan was running. But I heard a thumping. I remembered reading something about it, but rather than get the laptop I opened the door. Fireball as I open the door. Close the door. There a a raging fire in the box. I darkened it down a bit with some water and shut it down for 5 mins. Thought maybe the holes were blocked so I racked the bottom coals a bit to open. Fire gets going real good, almost too good. I have since closed the air damper in the back to half to limit oxygen. The boiler got to temp and it shut down, but I want the readers digest of what I am doing wrong rather than 30 pages of searching.


 
Don't panic.  You'll figure out how this thing likes to run and everything will be fine.  There's a big learning curve but you'll get it.

*And don't ever throw water on the fire!!*  These things can handle a lot of heat and its pretty hard for them to get away from you.  Relax.


----------



## Woodsrover

infinitymike said:


> Now its very light and almost gone it disappears about 3-4' from stack


 
Mike, that's steam and that's perfectly normal.


----------



## infinitymike

The house is up to 69* and in about 20 minutes or so the house will be satisfied and the unit will remain off for most of the day.
High temp of 48*. 

Ok I gotta get off this computer. I gotta go to work.


----------



## Woodsrover

Mike and CT, I think you guys need to relax, load some wood in your boilers and leave them be. Go have a beer and stop trying to micromanage every flame and every ember in your boilers. Sometimes they smoke if the wood's a little wet or you have a big load. Sometimes they go out and you have to relight them. Looks like the cold weather is starting to come along and you'll find they run even more efficient and more predictable. This machine has been built for 30 years without significant changes and they were designed and work best without a lot of poking and prodding. I don't care how thick my coal bed is, as long as the fire is burning. I've gotten to the point where I know how much wood I need to last 12 hours. I don't care if there's a bit of smoke from time to time. Its a wood fire...sometimes its going to smoke. If you're making heat, not filling your basement with smoke and running a stack temperature between 200-300 degrees, I think your good

Now go. Get upstairs. Your wife hasn't seen you in weeks for all the babysitting of your new boiler then running upstairs and posting on hearth.com. Tell me she hasn't laughed at you for all the posting here! I know mine did....Still does!


----------



## infinitymike

Woodsrover

I totally agree with you. I was just giving a step by step post by post description of a typical burn for those who need to know. 
I get up at 5 stick wood in and don't look at it until 5 at night. 

Although I was like that for the first few months last year.


----------



## avc8130

Woodsrover,

You and I must be in the ~1 month zen period.  Put wood in, enjoy warm house.  

ac


----------



## Coal Reaper

Woodsrover said:


> Mike and CT, I think you guys need to relax, load some wood in your boilers and leave them be. Go have a beer and stop trying to micromanage every flame and every ember in your boilers.



6:31am is beer time. I like.


----------



## CTFIRE

I seem to be getting conflicting advise. What does loading the boiler up mean? to the roof? To the bottom of the opening like ac? So dampering to 80% closed seemed to work last night. I didn't put wood to the roof of the chamber either. But I didn't have any coals this morning. Couple pieces of charcoal. The low temp switch worked. Water temp was down to 100, but the house was still at temp. Don't think it was off for too long. Maybe another log or two would have gotten through to the am with hot coals. Appreciate all the feedback and yes my wife laughs at me, but that's not unusual. Seems to me there are a lot of variables at play. I have a mixture of wood (all seasoned 12-18 months) black cherry, ash, tulip, and some others. Still trying to wrap my brain around the moisture content of the wood and home much that matters. Any log on the top is going to dry out relatively quickly in the wood gun before it gets to temp and starts to gas.


----------



## Woodsrover

CTFIRE said:


> I seem to be getting conflicting advise. What does loading the boiler up mean? to the roof? To the bottom of the opening like ac?


 
Depends on the time of day and the temperature outside.

Last night I loaded the firebox 3/4 full and it got me through to this morning.
This morning I loaded mine about half-way and that should get me through until tonight.

Judging by what I'm burning in this weather, when it really gets cold out I can see myself loading it chuck-full in the evening to get though to the morning and again in the AM to get through the day.  Still, a nice change from loading my old Vermont Castings stove up at 9:00pm, 12:00 midnight and then again at 4:00am like I used to.


----------



## muncybob

You'll "get to know" your boiler as the season progresses. Different loads for different demands and durations of demand. A mixture of size splts works well for us. Normally we can get away with 2 loads per day but in really cold weather it may take 3. A full load can have a different meaning depending on if you still have the smoke shield installed. By it's nature(getting in the way!) it will only allow you to load up the firebox to a certain level which in turn may require more loadings. This is our 1st season w/o the shield as we now have the smoke hood so we have yet another learning curve to get thru.
The air intake damper is yet another part of the learning curve. Originally AHS told me to run it wide open...that eventually caused the humping effect to such a degree that one day I shut down the boiler for fear of something dreadful was about to happen! For the most part I run with the flap about  1/4 open, this seems to minimize any humping and also decreases the draft which in turn can help to make the wood last a bit longer in the firebox.
The comment about the wood will dry in the firebox is correct but I would rather dry the wood prior to burning...the exess moisture has to go somewhere and I would prefer it outside of my boiler.


----------



## avc8130

"Wood load" is tough.  My 180 has a 14 ft3 wood capacity.  I would say I am putting ~5-6 ft3 in when I reload. I am still running the smoke flap, so I am limited to how tall I can stack. I also don't fill the boiler to the sides as I feel a centralized stack burns better than one with wood out on the sides.  If I put wood out on the sides, I find that it doesn't burn as well as the wood in the middle.

We also need to be careful when we talk about he damper.  There is only 90 degrees of operation since turning it either way does essentially the same thing.  With the handle parallel to the intake tube that is 100% OPEN.  With the handle perpendicular that is 100% CLOSED.  Right now mine is at ~45 degrees, or 50% open/closed.  I'm not sure I notice a difference from 100% OPEN.

ac


----------



## infinitymike

Hey CT
Hows it burning for ya.


----------



## CTFIRE

infinitymike said:


> Hey CT
> Hows it burning for ya.


Still dialing in the right amount of wood. Had a good bed of coals two mornings. Went out another. I think I may retape the seams of the vent pipe. I didn't put silicone on the joints, just metal tape. I don't see smoke, but get a wiff of it in the house. Not a huge deal, but I think there is something leaking.


----------



## avc8130

CTFIRE said:


> Still dialing in the right amount of wood. Had a good bed of coals two mornings. Went out another. I think I may retape the seams of the vent pipe. I didn't put silicone on the joints, just metal tape. I don't see smoke, but get a wiff of it in the house. Not a huge deal, but I think there is something leaking.


 
MORE WOOD.  Just do it.  Put more in than you THINK you need.  Report back.


----------



## infinitymike

I wake up at 5 am with more than a third left, nice coals and then I load it up to the top of the door. About 8-9 splits
Yes I log every split I put in, along with time of day and outside temp.
I come home at 4 and have about a quarter left and fill it half way. about 4-5 splits
At 10 pm I fill it to the top again. About 6-8 splits.

About 18- 22 splits a day. they range from 3x3 to 5x5
I have around 380-420 splits per cord...yes I counted

I have burned close to a 1000 splits since 10/8/12 when I lit the seasons first fire. about 2.5 cord
That actually makes sense based on my rack system.
I have 3 empty racks
One rack is just under 3/4 cord and the other 2 are just about a cord.


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> I wake up at 5 am with more than a third left, nice coals and then I load it up to the top of the door. About 8-9 splits
> Yes I log every split I put in, along with time of day and outside temp.
> I come home at 4 and have about a quarter left and fill it half way. about 4-5 splits
> At 10 pm I fill it to the top again. About 6-8 splits.
> 
> About 18- 22 splits a day. they range from 3x3 to 5x5
> I have around 380-420 splits per cord...yes I counted
> 
> I have burned close to a 1000 splits since 10/8/12 when I lit the seasons first fire. about 2.5 cord
> That actually makes sense based on my rack system.
> I have 3 empty racks
> One rack is just under 3/4 cord and the other 2 are just about a cord.


 
I was tracking what I was burning on a spreadsheet, then I stopped once I realized it didn't really matter.  I now just put in enough wood and it isn't a problem.

I brought my boiler online Nov 19th.  I believe I have burned ~4 of my 1/4 cord racks.  So about 1 cord/month.  That is pretty consistent with what I used to feed my wood stove that didn't heat my whole house or let me take warm showers.

ac


----------



## maple1

I've been trying to roughly predict how much wood I'll burn by winters end, using the firebox size. I measured it at about 3 cu.ft. usable volume (spec is 4). So far I think I'm burning around 4.5 cu.ft. a day between an intial load & a partial re-load - that translates to around or just a bit over 1 cord/month. Which by rough judging of my wood pile likely is not far off.

You fellows have some big fireboxes, by specs - the 100 at 6.5, the 140 at 10. At just one load per day, that would mean 1.5 & 2.3 cords per month. So I'm wondering if the WG is like mine, the measured useable volume is actually smaller than the specs? And also maybe, the box isn't full front to back? My wood is usually a few inches shorter than the box.


----------



## avc8130

maple1 said:


> I've been trying to roughly predict how much wood I'll burn by winters end, using the firebox size. I measured it at about 3 cu.ft. usable volume (spec is 4). So far I think I'm burning around 4.5 cu.ft. a day between an intial load & a partial re-load - that translates to around or just a bit over 1 cord/month. Which by rough judging of my wood pile likely is not far off.
> 
> You fellows have some big fireboxes, by specs - the 100 at 6.5, the 140 at 10. At just one load per day, that would mean 1.5 & 2.3 cords per month. So I'm wondering if the WG is like mine, the measured useable volume is actually smaller than the specs? And also maybe, the box isn't full front to back? My wood is usually a few inches shorter than the box.


 
My 180 has a claimed 14 cu ft box.  I haven't come anywhere NEAR putting that much wood in it. 

1. It takes ~28" long splits.  Most of my splits are 16-20", so no matter how I stack I lose a lot of volume there.
2. I don't fill up along the sides.  The bottom of the box is rounded to the nozzles, I generally only stack ~3 splits wide at the bottom whereas 5-6 could easily fit side to side.
3. The firebox is very tall.  I rarely load more than 1/2 height.  I still have the smoke shield in, so I am limited a bit by that. 

I have seen no reason to fill the firebox any more than this.  I am getting 12 hour cycles easily.   I sized my 180 to support my workshop, but I don't have any heat installed in it yet.  My 180 is well oversized for my house, but I don't see any real disadvantage to that yet.  Oversizing the boiler resulted in a large 80 gallon internal capacity.

ac


----------



## infinitymike

avc8130 said:


> I was tracking what I was burning on a spreadsheet, then I stopped once I realized it didn't really matter. I now just put in enough wood and it isn't a problem.
> 
> I brought my boiler online Nov 19th. I believe I have burned ~4 of my 1/4 cord racks. So about 1 cord/month. That is pretty consistent with what I used to feed my wood stove that didn't heat my whole house or let me take warm showers.
> 
> ac


 
I know it doesn't matter but I can't stop it's just force of habit.


----------



## infinitymike

Sometimes I am still baffled.
5am unit on house calling for heat and fire burning nicely, I load it 3/4 up
7am unit shut down house demand met
11am unit turns on, not sure if house needed heat or unit was maintaining it's own temp. wife checked it said fire was burning nice and a lot of wood in there.
5;30 pm I come home unit is on and fire is burning nicely same wood from 7am and 11am
9;30 pm house is calling for heat unit comes on I go out to look and water temp is down to 150* and there is the same wood from before but there is NO FIRE

Damn Gremlins, what the heck.
How can the fire relite at 11 and 5:30 but not at 9:30 
Oh well the world may never know.
I guess its just the laws of physics at work.


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> Sometimes I am still baffled.
> 5am unit on house calling for heat and fire burning nicely, I load it 3/4 up
> 7am unit shut down house demand met
> 11am unit turns on, not sure if house needed heat or unit was maintaining it's own temp. wife checked it said fire was burning nice and a lot of wood in there.
> 5;30 pm I come home unit is on and fire is burning nicely same wood from 7am and 11am
> 9;30 pm house is calling for heat unit comes on I go out to look and water temp is down to 150* and there is the same wood from before but there is NO FIRE
> 
> Damn Gremlins, what the heck.
> How can the fire relite at 11 and 5:30 but not at 9:30
> Oh well the world may never know.
> I guess its just the laws of physics at work.


 
2 words: Time Argh


----------



## infinitymike

Oh yeah, the cycle time is sitting on the indirect water tank, waiting on line to be installed.


----------



## infinitymike

avc8130 said:


> 2 words: Time Argh


 
Time shime. it went 4 hours and then 6 1/2 hours and relit but couldn't do another 4?  humpf


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> Oh yeah, the cycle time is sitting on the indirect water tank, waiting on line to be installed.


 
Dude, 10 mins.  Seriously.  10 mins.  Easy peasy.


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> Time shime. it went 4 hours and then 6 1/2 hours and relit but couldn't do another 4? humpf


 
I don't know what happened today, but I lost my fire.  Got home around 5pm and checked the boiler.  120F with a small puddle in the cyclone (expected since the boiler condensed).  I had my cycle timer set to 1 clip every 2 hours.  Maybe that just wasn't enough today.  There were ~6 full splits charred in the wood chamber. 

Quick blast with the torch and it was back and running.  I changed the timer to 1 clip/80 mins. I'll see how that works out.

ac


----------



## infinitymike

Do you have the low temp shut off? Mine is set to 140*


----------



## infinitymike

That actually happened to me to day also. At the same time too. 
Maybe that's when the union gives the gremlins a coffee break.


----------



## avc8130

infinitymike said:


> Do you have the low temp shut off? Mine is set to 140*


 
I do, but calls for heat and latent loss will bring the temp down further.


----------



## Gasifier

AC. I found a way to keep the Wood Gun going without a cycle timer and without even bothering with storage! All you need is a lot of wood!  I had been down stairs to check on the Gun and was surprised at how much wood it had gone through in only half a day. But it is pretty cold here, 19then, and I had put some pine slab wood mixed in with some hardwood cord wood. The pine slab can burn away quick. But it was empty by 1PM. ?  While carrying presents in today someone forgot to shut the garage door by mistake! I did not know, of course, until about 3 1/2 hours later!   Man, can that slab of concrete suck some energy up trying to heat that garage with the overhead door open. Glad I went out to the garage for a big trash bag to put all the wrapping paper into. The t-stat in the garage was reading 33 at the time. I loaded the fire box full before we left for dinner at about 4, knowing that the Gun had to heat the garage back up to 45 and keep up with the demand of the house.  Man, did I go through some wood today.


----------



## avc8130

Gasifier said:


> AC. I found a way to keep the Wood Gun going without a cycle timer and without even bothering with storage! All you need is a lot of wood!  I had been down stairs to check on the Gun and was surprised at how much wood it had gone through in only half a day. But it is pretty cold here, 19then, and I had put some pine slab wood mixed in with some hardwood cord wood. The pine slab can burn away quick. But it was empty by 1PM. ? While carrying presents in today someone forgot to shut the garage door by mistake! I did not know, of course, until about 3 1/2 hours later!   Man, can that slab of concrete suck some energy up trying to heat that garage with the overhead door open. Glad I went out to the garage for a big trash bag to put all the wrapping paper into. The t-stat in the garage was reading 33 at the time. I loaded the fire box full before we left for dinner at about 4, knowing that the Gun had to heat the garage back up to 45 and keep up with the demand of the house.  Man, did I go through some wood today.


 
The Wood Gun loves a good load of wood!

ac


----------



## CTFIRE

Hey guys. Happy New Year. Wood gun is working well. Seem to load it more than you guys, but it has been cold and my older wood is only 15-18 inches in length. Not utilizing the full potential of the  the fire box. I notice I get smoke more often than not. Still trying to dial that in as I was under the impression it would be less. I noticed today something at the base of the chimney. At first it looked list wood chips or dust. Upon closer examination it appears to be stained ice. I didn't notice it before the snow. I am thinking the smoke and snow/sleet combo condensated and ran down the exterior of the pipe. Looks like the base dispersed the dirty ice on to the snow base. Any other thoughts?


----------



## avc8130

CTFIRE said:


> Hey guys. Happy New Year. Wood gun is working well. Seem to load it more than you guys, but it has been cold and my older wood is only 15-18 inches in length. Not utilizing the full potential of the the fire box. I notice I get smoke more often than not. Still trying to dial that in as I was under the impression it would be less. I noticed today something at the base of the chimney. At first it looked list wood chips or dust. Upon closer examination it appears to be stained ice. I didn't notice it before the snow. I am thinking the smoke and snow/sleet combo condensated and ran down the exterior of the pipe. Looks like the base dispersed the dirty ice on to the snow base. Any other thoughts?


 
How often are you reloading?  

Short wood definitely makes it tougher to do a job properly 

I don't have much wood cut to full firebox depth.  I did have a fair amount of oak cut at 24" and that week was AWESOME.  Generally I have my wood cut around 16-18" also.  I pile it in neatly and then kinda angle the rest in the front.  I have been known to put a few in sideways along the front even though that isn't supposed to be kosher, it seemed to work fine.

Mine seems to smoke a fair amount also.  I don't know if it is steam or what.  I get quite a roar when I open the door and I can watch flames in the nozzles so I assume it is gassifying.

ac


----------



## Fred61

I had about 19 feet of chimney above the cyclone and many times I would go outdoors at night and watch glowing embers coming from the chimney. I assume from the high combustion fan force. I was always glad to have snow on the roof.
As for the smoke: For most burning the high flow combustion air is adequate, however there are a few times when the oxygen is consumed early in a hot fire and the extra gasses that do not ignite go out the chimney because the Wood Gun does not have secondary air injection. When mine was emmiting dark smoke it was usually when I had a large roaring hot fire going. It would also smell like an old coal burning power plant. I would send my poodle out to do her nightly business and she would come in smelling like sulfer. Amazing how quickly dog hair picks up odors.


----------



## muncybob

I don't know if it's how my piping to the chimney is set up but I don't have any of the above issues. The cyclone is about 7' away from the base of the chimney and is connected by pipe that has a slight incline from the cyclone to the chimney.
My nozzle was probably beyond expiration this winter(until today!) and I was nervous about embers out the chimney but I have never seen them. I only get smoke in the first few minutes of a burn and then it's just steam. The only exterior marking I have seen is a bit of ash on out metal roof that quickly gets washed away during any rain we get. The only smell outdoors is what I would expect when burning wood and it's not very noticeable at that.


----------

