# Lights out in 2009?



## begreen (Oct 12, 2008)

Here's an important report on the state of our electrical infrastructure and our electrical energy consumption. We are going to have to address this asap. 

http://www.nextgenenergy.org/Portals/NextGen/studies/Nextgen_Lights_Out_Study.pdf


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## BrotherBart (Oct 12, 2008)

Yep. Glad my co-op just negotiated base load agreements with five coal fired plants all within two hundred miles of here and within the state. Easier to get the stuff less than two hundred miles than it is to transmit it from EBFE.

And conservationists/environmentalists won't be thrilled but coal prices took the biggest drop in 19 years last week. The co-op just got out of an arraignment that would have saddled us with the de-commissioning costs of a nuke one of these days.


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## JustWood (Oct 12, 2008)

I have been thinking about this for about 3-4 years now and have been proactive. The condition of the lines and service in my area is negligent.

2 years ago I invested $35,000 in a generator large enough to power my entire facility and then some. Everyone I talked to before the puchase told me to  go 2x as big as I needed in case of expansion down the road. In the process of inverting 480 and connecting shop and house.I also have a 6500W that I hardwire when needed. Might have to change name of business to LEE's LIGHT CO. sometime soon. Hehehe


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## mbcijim (Oct 13, 2008)

No, we won't address it soon.  

Here in PA we have Governor Rendell fighting and suing over every new transmission line even though they mostly want to add more lines to existing poles.  Until our politicians grow a set, we prefer to do the politically popular nothing.


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## BobTheTomato (Oct 13, 2008)

I think the sad thing is we will need to get to the point of rolling brown/blackouts before something is done (or just talked about).  It is politically unpopular with some groups to put up power lines.


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## jebatty (Oct 13, 2008)

It's politically unpopular with almost every group to locate power lines. Most agree we need more power infrastructure, but the same "most" say not in my backyard. Things will have to get much worse before reality, reasonableness and the public good trump self-interest.


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## begreen (Oct 13, 2008)

We tend to not deal with the less glamorous needs of the country until they become an (expensive) emergency. Kind of like waiting for the roof to leak before replacing it, even it causes thousands of $$$s in water damage and compromises the structure. Same thing for this economic mess we're in.


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## Highbeam (Oct 13, 2008)

As long as the poo goes down the toilet, the sewage system is fine. The story of my life and profession. We bury all of our best work to even make it less apparent when there is aging infrastructure.

I agree with Bobthetomato, until the lights go out we should expect little to no action.


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## InTheRockies (Oct 14, 2008)

I think it's very common for all organizations (including governmental bodies) to not put money away for re-capitalizing critical infrastructures (of all kinds)--the same's true on individual levels, too.  Unfortunately, catastrophic failures due to failure to upgrade such infrastructures may have drastic consequences, including severe illnesses/injuries (thinking of water-borne illnesses like cholera with respect to sewer failures).  This country will be facing yet more significant financial strains soon as many infrastructures are not aging well.  Some government solutions don't look very user-friendly, like the "demonstration project" to allow states to convert our interstates to toll roads since the federal government and states don't have or want to spend money to repair them.  (The scary precedent that has been set is awarding toll-road contracts to foreign corporations.  I suspect our politicians may begin selling most of our national resources to any foreign company, including sovereign funds, willing to pay.  Makes me wonder how long before the national parks and forests are gone. I can see foreign companies buying them to have access to the natural resources they contain.)


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## jebatty (Oct 14, 2008)

Maybe as the lights dim in 2009 we will enjoy the peace, freedom, security and prosperity of Bagdhad which has benefited so much from their friendly US neighbor. 
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/226/story/20296.html


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## Redox (Oct 15, 2008)

I just finished reading that report, and it IS looking like we may be going the way of Baghdad.  Has anyone ever experienced a rolling blackout?  Our utility had to resort to them one winter because it was so cold out.  They knocked out our entire industrial park for a while, but stopped after all the businesses got pissed and concentrated on residential areas instead.  This was also happening in Califonia during the Enron debacle.  

Our utility is pushing hard for smart meters and A/C shutdowns.  Currently, they are offering $100 a year per unit to allow then to shut off my air for (estimated) 6 hours a day about 6 - 10  times a year.  I wonder how much they will pay me to take my house off the grid during one of their emergencies?  The hospitals that I work in get paid well to run their generators on hot days to shave their peak down.  I think it might pay for the gas my generator uses.  I'm already playing the Time of Use game...

Chris


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## jebatty (Oct 15, 2008)

We have interrupt electric heat and electric hot water. Power co sends a signal over the power line, and you can hear the big relays snapping as they open or close the high voltage circuits. The hot water interrupt never has been a probem, as we have 130 gal in two very well insulated tanks.

The heat interrupt always happens on the very coldest days when heat is needed most, but since we always heat with wood, and electric is the backup, it has no effect on us. 400 hours is the max they can interrupt heat per season, but it could be all in one stretch.

For this regular electric rate is about $0.10/kwh, electric for hot water is $0.03/kwh, and electric for heat is $0.07. These rates change every month based on the electric company rip-off factor.


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## Highbeam (Oct 15, 2008)

I really appreciate these creative approaches. I wish our utility had the electric hot water interrupt system. I would jump all over that as it is my major electric consumer and my monthly bill would be cut significantly.


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## Turbozcs2003 (Oct 15, 2008)

Redox said:
			
		

> I just finished reading that report, and it IS looking like we may be going the way of Baghdad.  Has anyone ever experienced a rolling blackout?  Our utility had to resort to them one winter because it was so cold out.  They knocked out our entire industrial park for a while, but stopped after all the businesses got pissed and concentrated on residential areas instead.  This was also happening in Califonia during the Enron debacle.
> 
> Our utility is pushing hard for smart meters and A/C shutdowns.  Currently, they are offering $100 a year per unit to allow then to shut off my air for (estimated) 6 hours a day about 6 - 10  times a year.  I wonder how much they will pay me to take my house off the grid during one of their emergencies?  The hospitals that I work in get paid well to run their generators on hot days to shave their peak down.  I think it might pay for the gas my generator uses.  I'm already playing the Time of Use game...
> 
> Chris



They can load shed via 5% voltage reduction if needed.

Is your Utility constrained from Generation capacity or Transmission??  The ISO we are in has different strategies for load relief and different procedures depending on conditions. Fortunatley we havent had to resort to them.  On the  other hand building stuff is a long tedious drawn out process fought by just about every Tom Dick and Harry, they dont give a damn until they have an outage.


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## Redox (Oct 15, 2008)

TurboZ said:
			
		

> Redox said:
> 
> 
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> ...



Both!  The Mid Atlantic has mushroomed with McMansions in the last decade and they haven't built squat.  Constellation is hoping to add another reactor to Calvert Cliffs, but it's being held up (no surprise) by protests.  I think the lights will have to start going out for anything to be approved.  

Browning out was tried back in the '80s without much success.  It just runs the amp draw up and stresses the grid even more.  Anyone who had marginal distribution had trouble starting their A/C, so it was dropped.  I think they might do it in an emergency, but rolling blackouts are probably on their way.

That report cited by BG says that the worst problems are going to be in the west.  Next summer should be interesting in California...

Chris


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## Turbozcs2003 (Oct 15, 2008)

Actually ISO NE that is the first thing they order when there is capacity defficiencies in the system is a 5% voltage reduction.  I have never scene it used up here.

 That is Op #4. 

 FWIW ANSI standards for electrical equipment allows +/- 10 of rated line voltage. I know that one well since I used to designed ballasts and lamps and they had to start at  90% rate line or 108 volts, so 5% is nothing.   Oh, 5% voltage reduction reduces load 1.5%.


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