# Help With Older Stove Model



## Atticus (Mar 1, 2022)

All,
After weeks of searching the internet for any information on the wood stove that I purchased in December,, I discovered this wonderful site tonight. I have been a fireplace guy my entire life…until I inherited this wood stove (photos attached) with the purchase of a hunting shack. It functions well but I know nothing about the make or model. I enjoy cooking on it as well as learning how to tweak the airflow for longer burns, heat adjustment, etc.  I am a newbie but truly want to learn about this wood stove as well as wood stoves in general. If anyone of you fine folks can throw in your two cents as to the make of this stove, I would be grateful. Thank you so much for your consideration.  Maybe one day I will have enough wood stove knowledge to help someone else.


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## begreen (Mar 2, 2022)

I'm not sure whose stove this is, but the installation is not safe. There are no legs on the stove. If it was meant to be a hearth stove then sitting it on firebrick is inadequate. Also, the hearth pad needs to extend out the sides and back and 16" in front of the stove door. Then there is the issue with rear clearance and the stove pipe to combustibles. There may be more issues, that are not visible like the pass-thru and perhaps chimney.


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## Atticus (Mar 2, 2022)

Thank you, begreen. Having a local guy come out and look next week. I really appreciate the heads up!


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## MongoMongoson (Mar 3, 2022)

My first thought was that it looks like an All Nighter Big Moe body with a different door casting.  The top plate is slightly different as well.  

Please take some pictures of the inside, the back side of the cast door, and the back.

Is there a blower inlet tube somewhere?  On the side to the right of the door as the stove is pictured?

I am not sure I will be able to help with the brand name it was sold under but for any questions about clearance or operation, you can use whatever you find about unlisted Fisher Papa Bears or All Nighter Big Moes.


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## Atticus (Mar 3, 2022)

Thank you, Mongo. More photos are attached. I notice slight differences between my stove and the All Nighter mid moe. Mine does have the hole/port on the lower right for the blower.


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## MongoMongoson (Mar 4, 2022)

It does look a lot like an All Nighter, so either a clone or one that was rebranded to use up some leftover stove bodies after the company died.

Is the firebrick missing from inside?  The floor inside should have firebrick covering it and it should have firebrick lining the walls and back, too.

Please be aware that on All Nighters (so maybe not this stove) the floor inside had firebrick on top of a piece of sheet metal.  Under the sheet metal was a layer of asbestos, and under that was the steel plate of the stove body.

If this has the same construction and the firebrick is out of the floor but the sheet metal and asbestos are still there, don't pull the sheet metal out.  Just cover it back up with firebrick.


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## all night moe (Mar 4, 2022)

All Nighter for sure. The only diffrance in the top is it doesn't have the cuts on the edges near the ''heat ports.'' They look like half a heart with the points directed towards the ports. The door is all the All Nighter castings too, save the spiral circle and air inlets. The interior door baffle and even the hinges are identical. The ash apron is the same also. It is one of the features I like about those stoves. Nothing has ever escaped mine.

@begreen The Moe stoves have short legs. The adjusters may be missing on this one though.
Because of the asbestos bottom, I can hold my hand under the stove and leave it there without getting hot. Doesn't matter how hot I have the stove running. it is always ''cool'' underneath.


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## Atticus (Mar 4, 2022)

All night moe,
Thank you for the additional info on this All Nighter ( post company closure) model. I have a sick feeling that the previous owner took the firebrick out of the stove and put them on the outside. I will get photos in a few days and post. My question is…do the bricks just lay inside the floor, walls, and back without adhesive? There must be some pattern so that they all fit “just right”. The stove works well and will only get used about 15 days a year. But I want it to be safe! 
Just want to thank everyone for the information and help. Truly a blessing! Atticus


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## coaly (Mar 4, 2022)

all night moe said:


> All Nighter for sure. The only diffrance in the top is it doesn't have the cuts on the edges near the ''heat ports.'' They look like half a heart with the points directed towards the ports. The door is all the All Nighter castings too, save the spiral circle and air inlets. The interior door baffle and even the hinges are identical. The ash apron is the same also. It is one of the features I like about those stoves. Nothing has ever escaped mine.
> 
> @begreen The Moe stoves have short legs. The adjusters may be missing on this one though.
> Because of the asbestos bottom, I can hold my hand under the stove and leave it there without getting hot. Doesn't matter how hot I have the stove running. it is always ''cool'' underneath.


The floor protection for unlisted stoves goes by leg length of 6 inch and below. All Nighter used the asbestos shield to reduce the heat radiated to floor, and had short legs to fit under mantels making them a unique design. Without a UL tag specifying clearance and floor protection, NFPA standard applies.

A stove with no legs was designed as a fireplace insert requiring the installation within a masonry fireplace meeting the construction requirements of NFPA 211 code for chimneys, fireplaces and vents.

When All Nighter got wind of the pending patent infringement lawsuits from Fisher, there were a couple truck loads supposed to be scrapped. Some employees decided to take them to a garage, claiming they were scrapped. Doors were made for them without the All Nighter logo, and sold. They are normally found in the New England states.

That patent infringement case was the most costly for Fisher and the judge ruled you can’t patent something that happens naturally. In this case being the step top making the outlet higher than door opening to allow rising smoke to evacuate up the exhaust instead of rolling in the door. This opened the door for many others to copy the design.

Using the information for burning a Fisher in that section applies to your stove as well.


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## Atticus (Mar 4, 2022)

MongoMongoson said:


> It does look a lot like an All Nighter, so either a clone or one that was rebranded to use up some leftover stove bodies after the company died.
> 
> Is the firebrick missing from inside?  The floor inside should have firebrick covering it and it should have firebrick lining the walls and back, too.
> 
> ...


Thanks Mongo, I will get some pics of inside the stove. I cannot recall any bricks on the floor as the two pipes along each wall are above the flooring and create air for the kindling and wood. But, I will definitely check it out. Thanks again.


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## Atticus (Mar 4, 2022)

coaly said:


> The floor protection for unlisted stoves goes by leg length of 6 inch and below. All Nighter used the asbestos shield to reduce the heat radiated to floor, and had short legs to fit under mantels making them a unique design. Without a UL tag specifying clearance and floor protection, NFPA standard applies.
> 
> When All Nighter got wind of the pending patent infringement lawsuits from Fisher, there were a couple truck loads supposed to be scrapped. Some employees decided to take them to a garage, claiming they were scrapped. Doors were made for them without the All Nighter logo, and sold. They are normally found in the New England states.
> 
> ...


Thanks, coaly. Really appreciate the insight. Explains a lot about my stove. I’m still wondering how it travelled from Connecticut to rural south Alabama! Wish it could talk😂.


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## MongoMongoson (Mar 4, 2022)

If you had firebrick inside on the floor, the top of the brick would be close to flush with the top of the air pipes.

You can find All Nighter manuals here:





						All Nighter Stove Co.
					

Big Moe, Little Moe, etc.  A popular stove in the late 70's - heavy duty steel plate.  Here is a spec sheet in PDF for one model, and some general info:    Here is a manual for the basic All Nighter stoves   More All Nighter Stove Company Documents:  - Old brochure and sell sheet (features)...




					www.hearth.com
				




Th should allow you to identify which All Nighter stove body you have by dimensions (big moe? Mid moe?) and from there you might find a firebrick installation pattern.  

There is no adhesive used.  Place them in the floor to cover it, then install the walls and back.  If it is a Big Moe, you will be installing the bricks in the back through the flue collar...  unless you have very long arms or are small enough to climb in through the door.  

You should have brackets welded to the walls of the stove for you to tuck the bricks behind.  The brackets keep them standing up.


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## coaly (Mar 4, 2022)

Atticus said:


> Thanks, coaly. Really appreciate the insight. Explains a lot about my stove. I’m still wondering how it travelled from Connecticut to rural south Alabama! Wish it could talk😂.


There was a fabricator in Indiana that made the All Nighter product called the Sunrise too.

Is there a welded seam straight up the center of the back?

The wall protection needs to be much larger. With a 36 inch yard stick, touch the stove, and angle to wall. The 36 inch clearance needed gives you the shield size.




Since this is either missing legs, or was an insert for use only on a masonry hearth, it really needs to be raised on a protective floor pad with airflow under it. Only fireplace inserts had no legs and were designed only to be installed into a masonry fireplace. Many have been converted to a freestanding stove with minimum 6 inch legs or on blocks.

The rear heat shield requires a 1 inch air space behind it. A approved shield is specified in NFPA 211 as a non-combustible material with non-combustible spacers. No spacers within centerline of stove. 1 inch minimum air intake at shield bottom (usually supported on a few bricks to support weight of cement board) and open top. This allows 66% reduction of clearance down to 12 inch minimum. Any non-combustible material in direct contact with wall without the 1 inch air space is not a heat shield. NFPA has a table with other material in direct contact such as full width brick allowing 33% reduction down to 24 inches. These are reductions for US only.

The reason is not due to catching on fire immediately. Pyrolysis is a irreversible chemical change that takes place when combustible building materials are above the benchmark temperature of 115*f above ambient air temperature. As the moisture content decreases, ignition temperature is lowered until it bursts into flame seeing the temperatures it has been subjected to over TIME. This is why a installation thought to be safe for years becomes more dangerous over the exposure to time. Air flow is the key to lowering surface temperature within 36 inches to combustibles, not the shield material itself.

As begreen mentioned, the thimble through wall and chimney needs to be Listed Class A chimney that becomes a Listed assembly when installed as per manufacturers instructions.


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## MongoMongoson (Mar 4, 2022)

Looking back at an old picture on my phone, I see the floor bricks are not flush with the top of the air pipes.  The pipes stick up.  Take a look at this picture and you will see how the fire bricks were installed in mine.


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## coaly (Mar 4, 2022)

Atticus said:


> Thanks Mongo, I will get some pics of inside the stove. I cannot recall any bricks on the floor as the two pipes along each wall are above the flooring and create air for the kindling and wood. But, I will definitely check it out. Thanks again.


Side and rear bricks are normally held in place by the brick retainers on side walls. Install brick up under retainer to hold top, bottom brick holds sides to walls.

All intake air air is through the double walled door. Side pipes remove heat by convection. Intake air enters bottom of pipe on sides is heated and exits at top. There was a optional blower with flexible pipe available to help move heat through tubes. Only burn on the firebrick bottom on an inch of ash. (if you are referring to using the tubes to elevate fire)


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## coaly (Mar 4, 2022)

MongoMongoson said:


> Looking back at an old picture on my phone, I see the floor bricks are not flush with the top of the air pipes.  The pipes stick up.  Take a look at this picture and you will see how the fire bricks were installed in mine.
> 
> View attachment 293047


Here's a new one. Tubes varied. Later retainers using full angle iron lengths too;


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## MongoMongoson (Mar 4, 2022)

Coaly is right about installation order.  I think if you did what I said (install floor first) you would figure out quickly that the back bricks should be installed before the floor bricks.  

I have only done this once before.  I am sure he has done it a lot more than once!   Now that I am thinking back...  I had to pull up some floor bricks to replace cracked bricks in the back.


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## coaly (Mar 4, 2022)

MongoMongoson said:


> Coaly is right about installation order.  I think if you did what I said (install floor first) you would figure out quickly that the back bricks should be installed before the floor bricks.
> 
> I have only done this once before.  I am sure he has done it a lot more than once!   Now that I am thinking back...  I had to pull up some floor bricks to replace cracked bricks in the back.


Using the bottom bricks to hold the sides in place prevented breakage in shipment.

Cleanliness is the most important. Wipe any debris with a damp cloth before installing. Any pieces or crumbs under or in joints prevents them from fitting tightly. Spaces between them is not important. That fills in with ash and becomes one solid mass.


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## Atticus (Mar 4, 2022)

Thank you for this great advice. I am assuming 9” x 4” x 1.25” fire brick will do the trick. I see Rutland brand at Home Depot.  Start with the rear wall, then floor, then side walls? I will take pics during and after installation in a few weeks.


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## MongoMongoson (Mar 4, 2022)

Sadly, I no longer have my All Nighter so I cannot measure the brick.  I can tell you that the brick in my All Nighter was a little smaller than standard.  I bought standard 9x4 brick and had to cut it down to get it to fit.  Then again...  maybe I did a poor job of cleaning out leftover ash and crud and that is why it did not fit.

In your case, I would use the firebrick the stove is sitting on inside the stove and then build a hearth to code.  That firebrick hearth you currently have is not to code.  

I made the same observation as All Night Moe with my All Nighter....  the underside did not get hot to the touch.  Even so, there is value in doing this right and if your stove is missing the insulating pad on the floor it will probably get a lot hotter than mine did.

As an added bonus, buying concrete blocks for the hearth pad will probably be cheaper than buying a bunch of firebrick to full your stove.

NFPA 211 is the reference document to tell you how to construct a hearth pad to code.


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## coaly (Mar 5, 2022)

I only have the brick cut sizes for Fisher Stoves. For any others, I do the same as Fisher; Start in left rear corner, install across back. You may have to cut the last brick to fit. Install sides from rear to front. Cut the last brick to fit if needed. Some will end 1 1/4 from front for a small piece to go across front from side to door opening. Some will have a retainer around door opening. Lay floor bricks to hold all bricks tight to walls. 

Cutting is easy with a masonry blade in circular saw. (air die grinder, tile saw) Score with saw about 1/2 inch deep, snap on score line. They are softer than brick or block and cut/snap easily.


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## rwhite (Mar 6, 2022)

If you have to cut brick, a trick I learned on here was to soak the end to be cut in water for 10-15 min. Keeps the blade cool and the dust down.


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## coaly (Mar 6, 2022)

Wetting reminds me, when you replace brick with new, don’t expect the normal heat output for the first few hours. Moisture from manufacture, or absorbing moisture from the air over summer in humid climates has to evaporate entirely from brick. The steam carries away BTU until dry.


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## Atticus (Mar 7, 2022)

You guys are so helpful! Really appreciate the advice and tips. I will keep you all posted. Thanks again.


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## Atticus (Mar 8, 2022)

For the guys helping me with my All Nighter….. here is before and after photos ( removing ash to prepare for firebricks). The steel brackets are clearly there for the bricks. Thanks again for the help.


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## begreen (Mar 8, 2022)

Are the upper brackets for a baffle?


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## MongoMongoson (Mar 8, 2022)

No, those all look like brick brackets to me.  If you look back in this thread to the picture I posted of my All Nighter you can see the upper bricks installed.


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## Atticus (Mar 9, 2022)

MongoMongoson said:


> No, those all look like brick brackets to me.  If you look back in this thread to the picture I posted of my All Nighter you can see the upper bricks installed.


Yep. I agree. I am assuming those brackets are for the upper bricks and the angle is for the lower bricks. I cannot wait to try out the stove with the fire breaks actually on the interior. I have no doubt it will make a huge difference on how the stove heats the cabin!


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## Atticus (Mar 9, 2022)

begreen said:


> Are the upper brackets for a baffle?


I think the angle and brackets are for the fire bricks…. Upper and lower. But I will soon find out when I try to install.


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## begreen (Mar 9, 2022)

Yes, I think you're right. The camera angle made them look angled, but now I see they are for the rear upper bricks.


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## Atticus (Mar 22, 2022)

Be green, cobalt you, and momgo….
Installed Rutland fire bricks in wood stove but ran out of bricks. I need about four more for custom cutting to fit. Please see the floor pattern as I figured similar to laying grass sod so all joints do not align. And I believe it was costly who advised to install rear wall of bricks first. You weren’t kidding…. I had half my body in that stove with headlamp light and finally got the four rear wall bricks installed. They were by far the most difficult. Should finish install in a couple of weeks. Then will work on moving stove out from wall, create air flow below stove, and add non combustible mat under stove. Let me know if I need to correct anything. I really appreciate the help.


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## Atticus (Nov 22, 2022)

Finished the wood stove project. Completely replaced chimney, stove pipe, thru-wall chase, durarock on wall with added fire rated rock hearth (vertical), durarock on floor and rocks from stream bed on property. Wood stove now burns properly and heats cabin like a champ. Just a fantastic stove.


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## begreen (Nov 22, 2022)

It looks beautiful, but what is behind the rocked wall? As an unlisted stove needs 36" clearances in all directions and  a larger hearth.  There is no protection for the wood floor in the front. A minimum of 16" R=1 hearth protection is required and it needs to extend 16" in front of the stove door.


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## Atticus (Nov 23, 2022)

Begreen,
Well, you were one of the originals who gave me such good advice. Behind the rock wall is a 3/4” thick cement board with a 1” gap between it and the wood wall. The thru wall chase is per code and I used double walled stove pipe (18” from rock wall). The floor has two 3/4” cement board sheets and a layer of waylander welding blanket with rock added. You are correct about the front coverage. It is a hunting cabin and I just could not extend any further without creating a tripping hazard for myself and others. The bottom of the stove is @ 7” above the Waylander welding blanket. The early cold weather in the South in November has allowed me to build several really hot fires so far and the floor and wall have not gotten hot.…or even warm. A huge improvement when I first purchased the place and wood stove had single wall stovepipe and the stove was only 5” from back wall.😳
Please let me know if you see any other major issues. Project took me several months of working there one day a week during summer. That duravent chimney draws so nicely now. Attached original photo of stove installation at time of cabin purchase.


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## coaly (Nov 23, 2022)

That rear shield doesn’t appear to have an air intake at bottom. Pics don’t show top, but it must be open across top for the heated air to rise up and out. The thickness of shield and material it’s made of is not what keeps the wall cool. A 1 inch air intake at bottom and open top allows the 1 inch airspace behind shield to keep wall cool using airflow. See my post #13 with heat shield specs. Should be able to open this up at bottom without too much issue.

And the floor protection in front is not enough. It is mostly for logs rolling out, and this type stove loaded lengthwise prevents that. But airflow for wall shield needs to be addressed.


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## Atticus (Nov 23, 2022)

Thanks for the informatio, coaly. There is a good inch gap between the back of the mantle and the wood wall. There is also a gap between the cement board and wall. I might need to cut in air vents along the bottom of the wall. Everything sits on a baseboard but I will check it out next time I am up there. Thanks again!


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## begreen (Nov 23, 2022)

Atticus said:


> Thanks for the informatio, coaly. There is a good inch gap between the back of the mantle and the wood wall. There is also a gap between the cement board and wall. I might need to cut in air vents along the bottom of the wall. Everything sits on a baseboard but I will check it out next time I am up there. Thanks again!


Yes, air needs to freely convect behind the heat shield. That's what makes it so effective. Heat can not be trapped behind the shield. It must be at least 1" open on the bottom and the top .

And the front hearth protection is needed to protect from sparks (embers) popping out from the stove and for heat shielding. Hopefully, this is not a big deal. The visual effect is really nice.


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## begreen (Dec 20, 2022)

All that is needed is for the cement board to be taken off the wall and spacers placed behind it so that it is 1" off of the wall and open at the top and bottom. There are 1" ceramic spacers for sale or these could be made by cutting up short pieces of 3/8" copper pipe, or the metal stud could be vertically attached, flat side to the wall, and the cement board attached to it.





						Wood Stoves and Fireplaces - WOOD STOVE WALL CLEARANCES - PRIMER
					

Written by Ken Rajesky, Hearth Industry Expert.  After the difficult decision of what stove to buy has been made, you’ll need to install the stove safely. However good the stove is, it’s still not safe unless installed to manufacturers specifications.  First, review the owners guide that came...




					www.hearth.com


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## tebenhoh (Dec 21, 2022)

Atticus said:


> You are correct about the front coverage. It is a hunting cabin and I just could not extend any further without creating a tripping hazard for myself and others.


Fireproof rug or mat in front of the stove? I doubt it’s code, but better than nothing - especially with a wood floor?


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## Atticus (Dec 30, 2022)

Thank you all for the advice and expertise! Very much appreciated. Happy New Year!


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