# Absolute Steel Hybrid



## Flamestead (Jan 24, 2016)

I installed an early model of the Absolute Steel Hybrid yesterday, and we are very much enjoying it (despite paint smell when it is 20 degrees outside!). My wife is loving the air control - it is at least as good as the Ideal Steel. We liked the Ideal Steel, but were not sure we needed such a large stove for our second (the Progress Hybrid will remain the workhorse).


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## weatherguy (Jan 24, 2016)

You're a beta tester for this one too flame?


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## Flamestead (Jan 24, 2016)

weatherguy said:


> You're a beta tester for this one too flame?



Yes, my wife arranged it both times. She called on Friday, and by noon on Saturday we had the stove in the truck, headed back home. I think I owe her!

We cleaned the PH and set it off to the side, so this is running on the same liner as the PH and IS.


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## weatherguy (Jan 24, 2016)

Nice, I'll be looking forward to your reports, you did a good job with the other one.


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## Flamestead (Jan 24, 2016)

Loaded for the night.Primary draft acts more like the IS than the PH (the PH has a stronger draft coming down across the glass).


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## begreen (Jan 24, 2016)

The firebox opening seems small, but I'm used to a larger stove. What is the opening size?


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## Dairyman (Jan 25, 2016)

begreen said:


> The firebox opening seems small, but I'm used to a larger stove. What is the opening size?



12"w × 10"h

http://blog.woodstove.com/2015/12/new-hybrid-dimensions-and-specifications.html?m=1


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## begreen (Jan 25, 2016)

Thanks, now I see that this is a side loader. It looks like the front glass is 14.5"W x 13"H. The firebox is larger than I thought at 2.5 cu ft. Is it possible to load that amount of wood through the small side door?


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## drz1050 (Jan 25, 2016)

That handle above the loading door- is that the bypass? What kind of burn times are you getting out of it so far?


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## Flamestead (Jan 25, 2016)

drz1050 said:


> That handle above the loading door- is that the bypass? What kind of burn times are you getting out of it so far?


Yes, the bypass handle comes down across the door - must open the bypass to open the door.

The stove is undersized for our house/insulation - we are testing it to see if we'd like it as a second stove, but right now only have one flue lined. So I'm not trying any low and slow fires yet. Going 7 hrs overnight we are having excess coals in the morning (still finding the right overnight settings, finding we can give it a bit more air than we have been).


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## Flamestead (Jan 25, 2016)

begreen said:


> Thanks, now I see that this is a side loader. It looks like the front glass is 14.5"W x 13"H. The firebox is larger than I thought at 2.5 cu ft. Is it possible to load that amount of wood through the small side door?



I tend to not load right up to the fireback on these stoves - usually leave a couple of inches. The front andirons feel a bit short to me (they lift right out for cleaning the glass (hear that, PH owners?!)), so I'm not crowding the front, either. I think you would need to play Jenga to completely fill to the top due to the height of the door relative to the height of the firebox.

The PH opening, for comparison, is 9 wide x 10.5 high, and the smoke shielding blocks off some of that.

{edit: I just looked in through the glass on the Absolute Steel - the top of the door opening is flush with the top of the fireback at the back (lowest part) of the sloped roof to the firebox. - You can pack it quite full if you wanted to.}


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## Woody Stover (Jan 25, 2016)

begreen said:


> The firebox is larger than I thought at 2.5 cu ft. Is it possible to load that amount of wood through the small side door?





Flamestead said:


> I think you would need to play Jenga to completely fill to the top due to the height of the door relative to the height of the firebox. The PH opening, for comparison, is 9 wide x 10.5 high, and the smoke shielding blocks off some of that.


These door sizes might sound small if you've never run a side-loader, but it sounds to me that the PH smoke shield would be a bigger impediment to loading full. The Keystone door is 9 wide by 9.5 tall. I think the Fireview door may be a little taller but has that 'Indian temple' shape, where the top corners cut in. Even _that's_ not hard to load. As the box gets full, you have to put the top of the back row in first, when you still have room to slip the split back into position. Then the top front and lastly the center. When packing the small side-loaders, it helps to have a few flat splits on hand to finish off the top.


Flamestead said:


> The front andirons feel a bit short to me (they lift right out for cleaning the glass


Nice! The Dutchwest has the lift-out andirons and I wish the Keystone and Fireview did. Don't really need 'em on the Dutchwest since the front door opens to clean the glass, but they sure would be handy on the stoves with fixed front glass. The Dutchwest andirons aren't very tall either, but you'll find you don't need much height to do the job.


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## Flamestead (Jan 25, 2016)

Woody Stover said:


> ...snip...
> Nice! The Dutchwest has the lift-out andirons and I wish the Keystone and Fireview did. Don't really need 'em on the Dutchwest since the front door opens to clean the glass, but they sure would be handy on the stoves with fixed front glass. The Dutchwest andirons aren't very tall either, but you'll find you don't need much height to do the job.


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## weatherguy (Jan 26, 2016)

I took the smoke shield off of my PH,  it was a pain the arse.


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## JA600L (Jan 26, 2016)

With that fine tune air control I feel like it would be hard to find the right overnight sweet spot.


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## JA600L (Jan 26, 2016)

I would be curious to know who their target market is for this stove and their pricing.  If you only sell it for $2-300 under the Ideal Steel it might look like less bang for your buck. I'm guessing maybe it will be around $1500?


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## Flamestead (Jan 26, 2016)

JA600L said:


> With that fine tune air control I feel like it would be hard to find the right overnight sweet spot.



You mean like my wife, at the grocery store, trying to pick out one piece of fruit? 

I like the IS and Absolute Steel air designs because I can easily fine-tune it in the general vicinity of the sweet spot - I might not find the absolute, ideal sweet spot for each night's draft conditions, but I have a broad range of control level motion in that vicinity.


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## Flamestead (Jan 26, 2016)

JA600L said:


> I would be curious to know who their target market is for this stove and their pricing.  If you only sell it for $2-300 under the Ideal Steel it might look like less bang for your buck. I'm guessing maybe it will be around $1500?



We didn't talk pricing. I've read that we should know soon. In our case my wife knew right away, once installed in the kitchen, that she wants this stove over the IS due to this stove's size and lines for the place we want to eventually install it.


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## JA600L (Jan 26, 2016)

I just figure if they price them too close there will be a thread on here everyday asking which to buy. Is there a definite difference in size,  burn time,  heat output, etc ?

The less important things like control,  emissions,  internals,  don't really matter as much as meeting your heating needs.

We have always grouped the Ideal Steel and Progress Hybrid together as both being able to heat larger spaces.  I wonder if this would fit that bill or be better grouped with the Fireview.


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## LocustBurner (Jan 26, 2016)

The Absolute Steel will be a good addition to the Woodstock lineup.


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## Woody Stover (Jan 26, 2016)

JA600L said:


> I would be curious to know who their target market is for this stove


I didn't want to put the way-oversized IS in here, and try to run it super-low most of the time. A bigger stove takes longer to get up to temp, and burns up more wood doing it. With a stove that has adequate output most of the time, yes, I may have to reload quicker when it's unusually cold and windy out. That's where the grated ash system comes in. I can swirl the poker through the coals, leaving big, clean coals which I can burn down in a short time since the air can move through the coals better, and the stove stays hotter while doing it. The AS bumps up output and fire box size a bit over the Fireview, and would give me the big window and ash removal system I want. I think it will fit nicely into Woodstock's lineup.


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## Tavery (Jan 26, 2016)

JA600L said:


> I would be curious to know who their target market is for this stove and their pricing.  If you only sell it for $2-300 under the Ideal Steel it might look like less bang for your buck. I'm guessing maybe it will be around $1500?



I would perhaps be in the 'target market' group, though I don't know that for sure.Been looking for the perfect wood stove for the home we are building.
1450 sq. ft. on a tight budget, slab floor/R24 walls/R50 flat ceiling/no vault/stove centrally located in open floor plan home in the mild mid-west, Missouri Ozarks. Needing the low/slow burn of cat stove and heat output of secondary stove when called on.
We have too much shoulder season in our neck of the woods for a small, well insulated home to capitalize on a lot of stoves that are either to large and/or too pricey for the numbers to work well. ROI and Time spent operating must be considered. (wood heating as a hobby is a possible overriding factor for some of course, I get that)
But I need a stove that cost less than my brand new High efficiency furnace and A/C combined for Pete's sake
That I can  use when it's 30 F outside at night and not run us out of the house, (yes we could open a window) 
And still producing heat in the morning. reload and good till I am home in the evening)
Far as I can tell, a Cat stove is the only one that can do this.

My guess is that the heating industry is figuring out that the trend in building is smaller and tighter housing. And those who are building this way and considering wood heat as an option need options in various price ranges, not just the $3000+ flue pipe  options. 
Maybe this stove will be what fills the bill?

IS or PH? To much heat. Fireview, BK Ashford 20/30?  nice stoves and Very Expensive.
Hoping the Absolute Steel Hybrid performs as hoped, for space like ours and priced to fit a budget like ours. But built to last like the BK should.
Too much to ask?


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## Flamestead (Jan 26, 2016)

Like the IS, we are finding the hottest STT readings come back where the thermometer is in the photo below. The front lid has extra heat shielding underneath to protect it from the heat of the cat, so it doesn't get quite as hot. I'll get an IR thermometer soon, and check for hot spots. One of the hottest spots on the IS was just above the (front) door, which sort of surprised me, and was hotter on the right side than the left.


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## freeburn (Jan 26, 2016)

Looks like they will be advertising their introductory pricing this week per their Facebook post.


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## begreen (Jan 27, 2016)

$1795 introductory price.


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## JA600L (Jan 27, 2016)

begreen said:


> $1795 introductory price.



Wow, that does not seem like as much of a bargain as the Ideal Steel. For a 2.5cf stove, you have a lot of other options in that price range. The base Ideal Steel is $1925. Here come the  "which stove should I buy?" threads...

The other thing I noticed on their website is that they brag about the flame show of the Absolute Steel . I wonder if this one will burn full cat like the Ideal Steel does.


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## Tavery (Jan 27, 2016)

Looking forward to your experience and comparison between the IS and AS Flamestead. How will red/white oak compare to the fuel your using I wonder? Also interested in your impression of this stove's application in a 1450 sq. ft. well insulated home as a single heat source.


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## Flamestead (Jan 27, 2016)

Tavery said:


> Looking forward to your experience and comparison between the IS and AS Flamestead. How will red/white oak compare to the fuel your using I wonder? Also interested in your impression of this stove's application in a 1450 sq. ft. well insulated home as a single heat source.



We are in a 3600 sq ft house (plus walk-out basement, with stone and brick foundation) built in 1797. Attic insulation is marginal, windows are modern double pane, foamed in place. We keep half the house mostly closed in the winter (a door ajar to let cats move around). This stove is way too small on its own (the PH is too small on the coldest nights - the oil furnace runs in the early morning hours those nights). Anyway, I suspect with a smaller, well insulated house, further south, you would stand a much better chance of it being enough.


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## Woody Stover (Jan 29, 2016)

begreen said:


> $1795 introductory price.





JA600L said:


> that does not seem like as much of a bargain....the base Ideal Steel is $1925.


 I don't know how "base" the base IS is, but the $1795 AS "includes an inner soapstone liner,  ash pan, andirons, choice of left or right side loading, and artwork.  A plain version is available for just $1,695.00."
Comparing the prices of those two is a moot point for me. I don't like over-sizing a stove much. The bigger the stove, the longer it takes to heat up and get cruising, and the more wood you burn doing it. If I have to run a smaller stove a little hotter when it's unusually cold or windy, that's a trade-off I'll take.


JA600L said:


> I wonder if this one will burn full cat like the Ideal Steel does.


Sure.


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## Flamestead (Jan 29, 2016)

Woodstock said it was OK to remove the artwork, to see how we liked its look (just held on by screws). Wife and daughters think it is too plain...


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## Flamestead (Jan 29, 2016)

We have a strong draft. How strong? Woodstock is letting me borrow this meter. A typical draft is in the -0.05 to -0.07 inches of water column range, and at 35 degrees outside we are running considerably stronger.


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## begreen (Jan 29, 2016)

Flamestead said:


> Woodstock said it was OK to remove the artwork, to see how we liked its look (just held on by screws). Wife and daughters think it is too plain...


Looks like a steel fireview with fins.


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## Woody Stover (Jan 30, 2016)

Flamestead said:


> Woodstock said it was OK to remove the artwork, to see how we liked its look (just held on by screws). Wife and daughters think it is too plain...


I could get one like that, then have my SIL "faux" it to look like brick, or a cob oven.....or even soapstone! 


Flamestead said:


> We have a strong draft. How strong? Woodstock is letting me borrow this meter. A typical draft is in the -0.05 to -0.07 inches of water column range, and at 35 degrees outside we are running considerably stronger.


Was that a low fire? What happens with a high fire?  Your damper tames it back down to about normal, though?


begreen said:


> Looks like a steel fireview with fins.


About the only similarity _I_ see between the two stoves is that they are both taller than they are wide. Oh, and they both have a window, and legs.


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## Flamestead (Jan 30, 2016)

Woody Stover said:


> Was that a low fire? What happens with a high fire?  Your damper tames it back down to about normal, though?



The fire was medium-low. Later in the evening, on a higher burn, it was holding stead at -0.20 inches, and the key damper took it back down to -0.10.

These key dampers aren't like some I grew up with, in that this has more holes and doesn't scrape the sides of the pipe as you turn it.


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## Babaganoosh (Jan 30, 2016)

Flamestead said:


> - I might not find the absolute, ideal sweet spot for each night's draft conditions, but I have a broad range of control level motion in that vicinity.



I see what you  did there


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## Flamestead (Jan 30, 2016)

Babaganoosh said:


> I see what you  did there


 Glad to see it was appreciated! In hindsight I should have said I was making progress in that regard.


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## Babaganoosh (Jan 30, 2016)

Flamestead said:


> Glad to see it was appreciated! In hindsight I should have said I was making progress in that regard.



Zing!


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## Flamestead (Jan 30, 2016)

Here's the front edge of the fireback, with the holes for the third air supply (the glass is cleaner than it appears - I have a flashlight shining at an angle). The air introduced here with flame right there if very hot, or will feed the cat's combustion; either way is good. There is a fresh load in the firebox, so very little flame to see. STT is just over 400, stove front is 450, flue temp is closer to 500 (key damper fully closed).




The draft has been running at -0.20 most of the day when the key damper is open. We have -0.05 with the stove door open and key damper open.


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## Woody Stover (Jan 30, 2016)

Flamestead said:


> (the glass is cleaner than it appears - I have a flashlight shining at an angle)


Hard to tell...is that double glass?


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## Flamestead (Jan 30, 2016)

Woody Stover said:


> Hard to tell...is that double glass?



This particular version of the beta has double glass. I think it is still under review.


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## Flamestead (Feb 2, 2016)

I've been saving up some short pieces to be able to load N/S in the Absolute Steel. I didn't try packing it full, but was able to get quite a bit in on top of a deep coal bed. Several of the pieces had to be turned sideways to go through the 12" wide door. The glass is a bit hazed so the pic isn't great.

We have been settling into a bit of a routine, and with the warm weather I'm playing with slower burns overnight. The downside to that is I have to spend time burning down coals in the AM to have room for a good reload. I have been running it with a black firebox, but am still trying different air settings (my tendency is to overshoot and get the cat quite hot - I am not used to running with it black because my PH on this chimney will backpuff quite strongly).


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## Flamestead (Feb 3, 2016)

After 10-11 days of steady burning we cleaned the cat this evening. I was very, very pleased - with my wood and burn habits and draft I would normally have some ash to vacuum off the cat at this point. The cat was very clean, so I just put it back in place. These steel cats seem to start off very reactive, and then settle in somewhat, so we'll see how this story plays out over time.

The bypass on this stove is more similar to the PH than the IS (a simple flapper, as opposed to the IS sled). I appreciate the simplicity of this design. The handle and the bypass flapper are all one unit (no linkages, etc).


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## Woody Stover (Feb 3, 2016)

Flamestead said:


> These steel cats seem to start off very reactive, and then settle in somewhat, so we'll see how this story plays out over time.


I've got the 6 x 2" round one from Woodstock in my Dutchwest. I never noticed a major difference as the cat broke in. I'd say you are about to the point where it has settled in to where it's gonna be.


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## fortydegnorth (Feb 3, 2016)

How would you compare the heat output between the three hybrid stoves you've been using?  I guess I'm curious if you feel the heat from one is more subtle, or one seems to be lacking for your space.  The specs vary quite a bit on paper but often times it seems real world testing puts things on a much closer playing field.  Obviously the capacities are different, but I'm more concerned about the "feel". I'm torn between all three of these stoves.  I feel the progress is too much, if the IS goes low enough I would love the capacity and I'm concerned the AS will be too small and shorten the possible time between reloads.


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## JA600L (Feb 3, 2016)

fortydegnorth said:


> How would you compare the heat output between the three hybrid stoves you've been using?  I guess I'm curious if you feel the heat from one is more subtle, or one seems to be lacking for your space.  The specs vary quite a bit on paper but often times it seems real world testing puts things on a much closer playing field.  Obviously the capacities are different, but I'm more concerned about the "feel". I'm torn between all three of these stoves.  I feel the progress is too much, if the IS goes low enough I would love the capacity and I'm concerned the AS will be too small and shorten the possible time between reloads.


Your best bet there is to call Woodstock and ask them.  They designed all three so they will be able to offer you sound advice.


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## Flamestead (Feb 3, 2016)

fortydegnorth said:


> How would you compare the heat output between the three hybrid stoves you've been using?  I guess I'm curious if you feel the heat from one is more subtle, or one seems to be lacking for your space.  The specs vary quite a bit on paper but often times it seems real world testing puts things on a much closer playing field.  Obviously the capacities are different, but I'm more concerned about the "feel". I'm torn between all three of these stoves.  I feel the progress is too much, if the IS goes low enough I would love the capacity and I'm concerned the AS will be too small and shorten the possible time between reloads.



I'll second @JA600L 's suggestion to call them, but also add my two cents.

The top-end burn on the PH is definitely the highest output of the three stoves. The heat coming off the front during a strong secondaries burn is quite impressive; in our big, drafty farmhouse, we appreciate that power. My wife loves the heat still in the soapstone in the mornings (she feels the steel stove are quite a bit cooler by morning).

The IS is the biggest firebox, and has excellent air control. It is deeper front-to-back, which gives you some flexibility (you can load your splits in either direction - if I had an IS long-term I probably would cut my wood 18" and load N/S all the time). Loading E/W, you can pull the coals forward and put large splits at the back bottom to help get a longer burn. The IS has the most exterior surface area - at 400 degrees I assume it will be releasing more heat than the other two. It is a big stove - my wife liked running it, but felt it was too big for where we want our second stove. I personally don't like a front-loader.

The Absolute Steel is not small, but is smaller than the other two. It is simpler in construction, is a side-loader, and has great air control. We will be buying one as our second stove.

Probably your best bet is to see all three in person (road trip east?). A different company once gave me contact info for people living close to me who had a boiler I was interested in, and we did a couple of house visits. I don't know if Woodstock ever connects people that way, but it wouldn't hurt to ask.


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## freeburn (Feb 4, 2016)

Flamestead said:


> I'll second @JA600L 's suggestion to call them, but also add my two cents.
> 
> The top-end burn on the PH is definitely the highest output of the three stoves. The heat coming off the front during a strong secondaries burn is quite impressive; in our big, drafty farmhouse, we appreciate that power. My wife loves the heat still in the soapstone in the mornings (she feels the steel stove are quite a bit cooler by morning).
> 
> ...


I asked about that very thing... They can't for confidentiality, but they suggested getting in touch on an online forum.


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## BrotherBart (Feb 4, 2016)

Hell, they have prototypes in houses of members here and another site. What is the confidentiality crap? Tell Tom to just tell ya where those are or their id's on the sites. They love to brag about'em. Or PM those owners.


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## Flamestead (Feb 4, 2016)

freeburn said:


> I asked about that very thing... They can't for confidentiality, but they suggested getting in touch on an online forum.



That makes sense - I wouldn't be too pleased getting a call out of the blue some evening from someone that got my home number from some place where I do business. Woodstock asked us once if a prospective customer could contact us (and we agreed) - but they probably try to stay out of that on a routine basis.

Forum members are welcome to see our setup in person. However, we are only 45 minutes from the showroom and have only two stoves to see; they do the tours, have stoves burning in the showroom, have employees who burn their stoves, and have multitudes of paint combinations and customization to see.


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## Flamestead (Feb 6, 2016)

Glowing scoop around the cat (and a bunch of reflections!). Stove-top at 600. Air is fully closed, key-damper is fully closed.




Another shot to show where the heat is. I can hold my hand within half an inch of the glass for extended periods of time because all the heat is up above, at the cat.


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## Flamestead (Feb 8, 2016)

When we first got this stove I thought the andirons were a bit short. As we've burned it more, I've realized that it hasn't been a problem (the wood is longer then the window is wide, and we don't get wood against the glass). In the meantime, Woodstock made up some taller andirons for us to try - these are about 1" taller and a little wider. They simply drop into a pocket, so easy to remove for cleaning the glass (which PH owners will appreciate). Yes, the glass does need cleaning...


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## LDay (Feb 9, 2016)

freeburn said:


> I asked about that very thing... They can't for confidentiality, but they suggested getting in touch on an online forum.


Hi Freeburn, 
Lorin from Woodstock here. While we can't simply give out customer names and numbers, throughout the years we've contacted our stove owners to ask if they are willing to be a reference or to show off their stove to prospective customers. The process can take time and there isn't always an owner in your immediate area with the particular stove you are interested in, but we can certainly try for you. Please feel free to call back and Ron, Mike or Penny will be able to get the process started.  
I apologize for the bad information the first time around!

Lorin Day
Woodstock Soapstone Co.


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## LocustBurner (Feb 9, 2016)

Welcome Lorin!


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## Woody Stover (Feb 9, 2016)

LDay said:


> Lorin from Woodstock here.


Hi, Lorin. Say, did you get your hair cut?


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## freeburn (Feb 9, 2016)

LDay said:


> Hi Freeburn,
> Lorin from Woodstock here. While we can't simply give out customer names and numbers, throughout the years we've contacted our stove owners to ask if they are willing to be a reference or to show off their stove to prospective customers. The process can take time and there isn't always an owner in your immediate area with the particular stove you are interested in, but we can certainly try for you. Please feel free to call back and Ron, Mike or Penny will be able to get the process started.
> I apologize for the bad information the first time around!
> 
> ...



Thanks for the response and welcome to the forum. No worries. My stove is scheduled to be delivered tomorrow, so I'll see it in person anyway!


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## LDay (Feb 9, 2016)

Woody Stover said:


> Hi, Lorin. Say, did you get your hair cut?


Do you not like my pixie cut silhouette?


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## LDay (Feb 9, 2016)

freeburn said:


> Thanks for the response and welcome to the forum. No worries. My stove is scheduled to be delivered tomorrow, so I'll see it in person anyway!


Oh, well that works too! Don't hesitate to contact us with questions.


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## Woody Stover (Feb 9, 2016)

LDay said:


> Do you not like my pixie cut silhouette?


As long as you keep sending me free stuff, I'll say your hair looks great no matter _what_ you decide to do with it.


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## JA600L (Feb 10, 2016)

LDay said:


> Oh, well that works too! Don't hesitate to contact us with questions.


Hi Lorin,
     Has Woodstock experimented much with bimetallic controls on the primary air?  A lot of people would like to burn these stoves very low but need something to open the air up and burn the coals at the end.   Is there any design feature that can be added to accomplish that?


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## Tavery (Feb 10, 2016)

JA600L said:


> Hi Lorin,
> Has Woodstock experimented much with bimetallic controls on the primary air?  A lot of people would like to burn these stoves very low but need something to open the air up and burn the coals at the end.   Is there any design feature that can be added to accomplish that?



Very interesting idea JA600L, I think that, (without knowing for sure this is what you mean)  that this ability is what makes the BKs  perform on lower settings and still burn cleanly and completely?  looking forward to Lorin's feedback on this one.
Of course the pricing of the AS at $850 less than the Ashford might keep them from adding features and parts. If it's really about price points and such. However if it's about performance and efficiency as well (which I think it definitely is).....what would it take and would it work,  the way this stove is designed with its singular manual air control?


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## LDay (Feb 10, 2016)

JA600L said:


> Hi Lorin,
> Has Woodstock experimented much with bimetallic controls on the primary air?  A lot of people would like to burn these stoves very low but need something to open the air up and burn the coals at the end.   Is there any design feature that can be added to accomplish that?


Hi JA600L-

I'll have to kick this into Tom's court for a more thorough answer since he spends a significant amount of time in our test lab, and he'll have his reasoning for continuing to utilize manual draft over a bimetal draft control.

The Ideal Steel air damper design has both the primary and secondary air openings specifically calibrated on one damper plate in order to run the stove with a single air control lever, keeping the operation simple while maintaining the proper air flow ratio for low emissions. Once a stove is EPA tested we cannot change the air configuration, including the addition of any bimetal damper system that obstructs the openings (as shown in your pictures). 

Ken, our engineer, mentioned you can get some pretty rugged bimetal products (we get our bimetal from Crest Manufacturing) that would be capable of moving the air control lever on the Ideal Steel to open up as you reach the coaling phase of the burn. This should perform the task you are looking for without modifying the air flow through the primary and secondary openings.

The design intent for the Ideal Steel Hybrid was to produce a high-efficiency, low emissions stove, that is easy to operate, with options that are most other stoves don't offer, at a price point that is considered affordable to most. This was a tall order and understandably there will always be functions that we haven't built into a stove design that some users would find desirable. 

The current method of burning down the coal bed with the Ideal Steel is to simply open the air control up and allow it to burn down (which I'm sure you already know). In the lab we often throw a few pieces of kindling on the coal bed and allow it to burn down. If you've built up a significant coal bed this can take a couple hours.

Tom is out this afternoon- but I'll post his response once he's back. Sorry I couldn't shed more light on this now. 

Lorin


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## freeburn (Feb 10, 2016)

_Ken, our engineer, mentioned you can get some pretty rugged bimetal products (we get our bimetal from Crest Manufacturing) that would be capable of moving the air control lever on the Ideal Steel to open up as you reach the coaling phase of the burn. This should perform the task you are looking for without modifying the air flow through the primary and secondary openings._

This would be great info to get!


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## Woody Stover (Feb 10, 2016)

JA600L said:


> A lot of people would like to burn these stoves very low but need something to open the air up and burn the coals at the end.


The Keystone comes with a small hole in the back of the ash pan housing that feeds a little air to the coals in the back, and it burns them down a bit better without re-adjusting the air. I know that at least one guy has drilled a hole in the IS ash pan, with a cover he can open and close. But as Lorin said, then you are messing with emissions and without sophisticated test equipment, have no way of telling what the effects on emissions might be when altering a stove after the fact. I find that having a nice grated ash system allows me to pull the coals up, with the ash falling away into the pan and with more air able to get to the coals, they burn down quicker than they would otherwise.


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## JA600L (Feb 10, 2016)

LDay said:


> Hi JA600L-
> 
> I'll have to kick this into Tom's court for a more thorough answer since he spends a significant amount of time in our test lab, and he'll have his reasoning for continuing to utilize manual draft over a bimetal draft control.
> 
> ...



I'm not trying to tell you how to build your stove's by any means.  I think it is safe to say from what I've seen on here and other sites, that an automatic air control would attract some serious attention. If you are interested in doubling your sales .


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## LDay (Feb 11, 2016)

Woody Stover said:


> The Keystone comes with a small hole in the back of the ash pan housing that feeds a little air to the coals in the back, and it burns them down a bit better without re-adjusting the air. I know that at least one guy has drilled a hole in the IS ash pan, with a cover he can open and close. But as Lorin said, then you are messing with emissions and without sophisticated test equipment, have no way of telling what the effects on emissions might be when altering a stove after the fact. I find that having a nice grated ash system allows me to pull the coals up, with the ash falling away into the pan and with more air able to get to the coals, they burn down quicker than they would otherwise.


Similar to the Keystone, the Ideal Steel has two auxiliary air holes to feed the coal bed a small amount of oxygen. The primary function is to help prevent back-puffing at low burn rates, but it does pump a small amount of air directly to the coal bed. The single port is seen when the loading door is open, the air enters the firebox below the andirons to the right and left of the door opening.


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## LDay (Feb 11, 2016)

JA600L said:


> I'm not trying to tell you how to build your stove's by any means.  I think it is safe to say from what I've seen on here and other sites, that an automatic air control would attract some serious attention. If you are interested in doubling your sales .


Feedback and suggestions have always been important to us, and our stove owners have been the primary catalyst behind improvements to existing stoves and implementation of designs/functions to new stoves. 
Double ...really!


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## Woody Stover (Feb 11, 2016)

LDay said:


> our stove owners have been the primary *CATALYST*


Oooo, good one!


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## Flamestead (Feb 12, 2016)

My wife was lukewarm about the original artwork, so Lorin asked for it back and gave it a paint job. This version is getting high wife-approval ratings.


 Also, as one who generally reports lower burn times due to our need for heat, I should note that this fire was restarted from coals 20hrs after the last reload, and the draft was left wide open the last 8 hours of that time. I personally would not call this a 20hr burn, but she will go the distance even while trying to get rid of the coals (we replaced the glass frame with a different style, so needed it cooled down).

I also checked the cat, and did not bother to clean it. On this same setup with the PH or IS I would have needed to vacuum it by now (close to half a cord). I think having the key damper installed (and fully closed!) is making a big difference.

Here's a pic from tonight with the draft fully closed both on the key damper in the flue and on the stove's air control. A "normal" draft is 0.05 to 0.07 (tonight's specifics for this pic are 2 F outside and no wind, 440 degree stove-top.)


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## weatherguy (Feb 12, 2016)

Flame, do you have a flexible liner for your set up?


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## Flamestead (Feb 12, 2016)

weatherguy said:


> Flame, do you have a flexible liner for your set up?



Yes,6", internal chimney, about 32', insulation wrapped around the liner. We sit out in the open (not much for trees or hills to affect the draft).


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## weatherguy (Feb 13, 2016)

Where did you put the damper? I could use one but wasn't sure if I could with a flexible liner, I guess I could put it near the top of the tee.


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## Flamestead (Feb 13, 2016)

weatherguy said:


> Where did you put the damper? I could use one but wasn't sure if I could with a flexible liner, I guess I could put it near the top of the tee.



It is in the horizontal part of the tee. (the rubber hose is for the draft meter, the handle for the key damper is just to the right of the rubber hose)


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## Flamestead (Feb 22, 2016)

Intentionally burning some 10mo CSS Sugar Maple just to see how cleanly it burns. It is slow to take off, but is burning better than I expected (no MM readings, yet). Not liking what it does to the glass. This is at startup, with the air wide-open.



At least it burns off nicely...


With one cord burned so far, we are very happy with the stove.


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## OhioBurner© (Feb 23, 2016)

LDay said:


> Hi JA600L-
> 
> I'll have to kick this into Tom's court for a more thorough answer since he spends a significant amount of time in our test lab, and he'll have his reasoning for continuing to utilize manual draft over a bimetal draft control.



Hi Lorin, if still reading this I'd add a +1 to JA's bimetallic air control suggestion. So far this stove has really done well and I am amazed at the difference in performance between this and my Jotul which is fairly new and more efficient than my old smoke dragon. Blown away is more like it. If there was one thing I'd pick to improve upon, it'd be to add a thermostatic control (I do think the air plates on it now are genius though!). I get plenty long burn times, I and others have really blown that 14 hr rating out of the water (why is it rated so low, when many of us get near or more than 24 hours in milder weather when we can run it low and slow?). My issue is that sometimes I come home after a work shift (14 hours or so) and find I have too much wood left in the box, and a cool house, despite leaving with the stove very hot. Perhaps most wood burners have someone else at home to turn it up later in the cycle, or shorter work days, so I admit my situation is probably not the usual. I'm hunting for a second stove right now (to replace the pellet stove with wood also) so I am watching these Absolute Steel Hybrid threads with great interest, but the thermostat on the BK is very tempting.


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## drz1050 (Feb 23, 2016)

I believe the stove ratings come from an EPA- specified load of Douglas fir, which would explain the burn times.. I could very well be wrong, and will defer to Lorin's knowledge.


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## tlhfirelion (Mar 5, 2016)

I apologize in advance if these questions have been answered already.  I read this whole thread and did a search as well as looked on WS website for the answers, but could not locate them.

1)  What sized home, square footage wise, is the Absolute Steel Hybrid designed for?

2)  Does this unit require (or would it benefit from) an outside air kit?

3)  Will this stove work at all if the Catalyst is shot/missing?  (I'm getting all prepper.SHTF on you here with a scenario where I lose power for days and am in need of a catalyst and haven't gotten my order yet, etc)  

Thanks for the feedback.


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## branchburner (Mar 5, 2016)

1) The Absolute Steel Hybrid would be "medium" as far as firebox size, so suited for homes in the 1200-2400 sf range, depending on climate, insulation, layout, etc.

2)  I think the usefulness of an outside air kit is more dependent on the nature of the house tightness, rather than the stove, no?

3)  I think any stove works if the catalyst is shot, but won't work as well. Since this is a hybrid, if you ran it hot enough you'd get secondaries from the burn-tube technology, so it seems to me it could be run very efficiently for quite some time with a bad cat, so long as you weren't trying to run it low, the way the cats can be run. (The VC claim with their hybrid is that the cat is an option rather than necessity... not sure how Woodstock would consider their stove to function without the cat, but as a prepper scenario I wouldn't worry... the cat should last a long time with cleaning, and to be safe you can order your backup a year or two before you think you might need it, lol.)

I've been running the ASH for a few weeks now and love it. What's the size layout of your house?


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## tlhfirelion (Mar 5, 2016)

branchburner said:


> 1) The Absolute Steel Hybrid would be "medium" as far as firebox size, so suited for homes in the 1200-2400 sf range, depending on climate, insulation, layout, etc.
> 
> 2)  I think the usefulness of an outside air kit is more dependent on the nature of the house tightness, rather than the stove, no?
> 
> ...




Thank you for the detailed reply! 

1)  M current stove is an old century brand rated for 1500 sq ft.  It can heat up good but sucks pretty bad on anything past 4-5 hours.  My home is 1500 sq ft and the stove in in the middle of the main floor.  The main floor is 1000 sq ft and the basement is 500.  I'm only focusing on the main floor from a practical stand point.  My home is about 30 or so years old and I'm stuck with the R11 fiberglass in the walls.  I've sealed it up with canned foam and the attic is about to bust from all the extra cellulose I added awhile back, but the heat pump can struggle a few nights.  I'm in northern AR by the MO border.  Aside from the long burn time, I am drawn to cats because of the efficiency.  I don't have property with any trees that are eligible to cut down so I have to either buy wood or get a tree from a friend or neighbor, etc.  I also don't have the long harsh winters like you guys up north do.  I need wood heat for 4, maybe 5 months a year and lost power due to ice storms, etc. 

2)  I assumed OAK would allow the stove to burn more efficiently without using already heated air from inside the structure. So even in a less than ideal sealed up home, it would still be of benefit.  Am I incorrect?

3)  Good to know on the cat.  Glad to hear you like the AH. I burn almost all oak, sometimes a cedar tree or hickory if I get ahold of a free tree.  What kind of burn times are you getting with the AH?  If I could get 8-9 hours overnight and keep my house at 70, I would be thrilled.  

Thanks again for the reply.  Good to hear from an owner of the stove I'm interested in.


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## quotejso (Mar 5, 2016)

Flamestead said:


> It is in the horizontal part of the tee. (the rubber hose is for the draft meter, the handle for the key damper is just to the right of the rubber hose)
> View attachment 174682


What dampner do you have? Is there any other way to measure draft?


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## drz1050 (Mar 5, 2016)

Firelion: 

It's hard to say, given each house layout/ draftiness/ level of insulation is different... I have the Ashford. Some people are heating 2000+ Sq ft with one.. my place is 1100, and on the really cold nights I leave it on full blast, and it just keeps the place mid 60s. Going to be upgrading the insulation this year, so hopefully won't have that problem next winter.

How many BTUs does your heat pump put out? Use that as your gauge..


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## tlhfirelion (Mar 6, 2016)

drz1050 said:


> Firelion:
> 
> It's hard to say, given each house layout/ draftiness/ level of insulation is different... I have the Ashford. Some people are heating 2000+ Sq ft with one.. my place is 1100, and on the really cold nights I leave it on full blast, and it just keeps the place mid 60s. Going to be upgrading the insulation this year, so hopefully won't have that problem next winter.
> 
> How many BTUs does your heat pump put out? Use that as your gauge..



Seeing as how my heat pump was installed by Moses and Sons heating and air, I suspect it's partly to blame for my heating issues.  I'll have to take a look and see what the label says on the unit.  Once my stove situation is squared away, the heat pump is the next to get upgraded/replaced.  Thanks for the suggestion and reply.


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## drz1050 (Mar 6, 2016)

Didn't mean to throw shade on the heat pump.. was just saying it heats YOUR place right now, so you know how many BTUs you need to heat YOUR place.. find out what those numbers are, and buy a woodstove accordingly. I'd get something that either matched, or went a bit over the BTU of the heat pump. It struggles a little bit on cold days.. it's no worries running a stove at 100%, and actually quite good for them. On average, would you say the heat pump is running around 50%? A stove running at 50% is usually quite happy there.

You wouldn't want to get a small stove, and then find out you have to run it full blast all the time, just like you wouldn't want to get a big stove and cook yourself out.


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## tlhfirelion (Mar 8, 2016)

drz1050 said:


> Didn't mean to throw shade on the heat pump.. was just saying it heats YOUR place right now, so you know how many BTUs you need to heat YOUR place.. find out what those numbers are, and buy a woodstove accordingly. I'd get something that either matched, or went a bit over the BTU of the heat pump. It struggles a little bit on cold days.. it's no worries running a stove at 100%, and actually quite good for them. On average, would you say the heat pump is running around 50%? A stove running at 50% is usually quite happy there.
> 
> You wouldn't want to get a small stove, and then find out you have to run it full blast all the time, just like you wouldn't want to get a big stove and cook yourself out.



What does "throw shade" mean?  lol  Apparently I'm not as hip as I thought I was.  

I've been too busy to go down and look at the numbers but I'll get that this week.  Your approach makes sense.  Thanks!


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## Flamestead (Mar 8, 2016)

quotejso said:


> What dampner do you have? Is there any other way to measure draft?


We have a key damper that is built into the Tee (I'm not sure which type). In the pic below, the cat and its heat shield are removed and you can see into the rear exiting stovepipe to where the damper is closed.




I've read there are other ways to measure draft but haven't tried any. The general notion is the amount of suction, measured in units of inches of water column (negative inches). This Tee has a hole drilled into it, and we insert a metal tube into the hole (about 1/4" tube). The metal tube has a rubber hose attached that leads to the meter. I think the other methods involve an actual tube of water (as I'm sure the original tools did) - this has an easy-to-read scale that can be zeroed out, and no water.


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## Flamestead (Mar 8, 2016)

tlhfirelion said:


> I apologize in advance if these questions have been answered already.  I read this whole thread and did a search as well as looked on WS website for the answers, but could not locate them.
> 
> 1)  What sized home, square footage wise, is the Absolute Steel Hybrid designed for?
> 
> ...


My apologies for being slow to respond...

As noted above, the design is more for heat load than for square footage. We are in a large (3600 sq ft plus walk-out basement), thin-walled, drafty (dry-stacked stone foundation). We close some rooms, and have heated primarily with one wood stove (8 full cord of wood per season). The intent of testing the Absolute Steel for our situation is to distribute heat horizontally by adding a second stove. I like the suggestions to compare to your current heating system on a BTU-basis.

Regarding the outside air kit, one neat feature of the Absolute Steel is that _all_ combustion air comes in through the OAK opening. This is not the case with the PH, IS, and many other stoves.

Without the cat the stove will not burn as cleanly as intended, but certainly would produce heat.


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## Flamestead (Mar 8, 2016)

...snip...


tlhfirelion said:


> 2)  I assumed OAK would allow the stove to burn more efficiently without using already heated air from inside the structure. So even in a less than ideal sealed up home, it would still be of benefit.  Am I incorrect?
> 
> 3)  Good to know on the cat.  Glad to hear you like the AH. I burn almost all oak, sometimes a cedar tree or hickory if I get ahold of a free tree.  What kind of burn times are you getting with the AH?  If I could get 8-9 hours overnight and keep my house at 70, I would be thrilled.
> 
> Thanks again for the reply.  Good to hear from an owner of the stove I'm interested in.



I am sure that using outside air directly for combustion rather than as make-up has to be more heat efficient.

We have not yet tried long slow burns. We load in the morning at 7am, come home at 4-5pm and reload, and then reload again at 9-10pm. We did a slower burn overnight last night and my wife was grumbling about how many coals were in the way of the morning reload. Our general goal is to have the stove in the 500 degree STT range as much of the time as possible. Once it drops below that temp we engage in tactics to "get rid" of the rest of the fuel in the firebox so there is more room for the fresh load. Warmer temps are here now, and we plan to begin playing with lower and slower burns.


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## Flamestead (Mar 8, 2016)

The top lid of the stove has a front lip that bends downward; that lip had very tight clearances on the early beta version we started with. If you weren't careful, it did not fully seat onto the gasket. We have the revised top to try - the top extends out another half inch or so, and the lip has a slightly different angle to it. Plenty of clearance now. My wife wanted to try it as simple as possible, and we are both liking this look. We intend to buy one, and I suspect this is the look she will select.


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## drz1050 (Mar 9, 2016)

tlhfirelion said:


> What does "throw shade" mean?  lol  Apparently I'm not as hip as I thought I was.
> 
> I've been too busy to go down and look at the numbers but I'll get that this week.  Your approach makes sense.  Thanks!



haha sorry... throw shade means to talk bad about/ disrespect/ put down/ etc... was just trying to make it clear that I wasn't doing any of that. 

You're very welcome, good luck in your search!


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## quotejso (Mar 9, 2016)

Flamestead said:


> We have a key damper that is built into the Tee (I'm not sure which type). In the pic below, the cat and its heat shield are removed and you can see into the rear exiting stovepipe to where the damper is closed.
> View attachment 176442
> 
> 
> I've read there are other ways to measure draft but haven't tried any. The general notion is the amount of suction, measured in units of inches of water column (negative inches). This Tee has a hole drilled into it, and we insert a metal tube into the hole (about 1/4" tube). The metal tube has a rubber hose attached that leads to the meter. I think the other methods involve an actual tube of water (as I'm sure the original tools did) - this has an easy-to-read scale that can be zeroed out, and no water.


How long is your chimney, I'm wondering if I maybe have too much draft for my Progress. My tee run is  maybe 2 feet then about 22 feet up?


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## begreen (Mar 9, 2016)

What are the symptoms that make you suspect too strong draft? A 90º turn in the smoke path should reduce the 22' chimney height about 2-3' or an effective 19'-20'. That should draft just about right.


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## quotejso (Mar 9, 2016)

begreen said:


> What are the symptoms that make you suspect too strong draft? A 90º turn in the smoke path should reduce the 22' chimney height about 2-3' or an effective 19'-20'. That should draft just about right.


Just my burn times were not as long as hoped for, probably just need to get out and stack wood.


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## begreen (Mar 9, 2016)

What were you typically seeing? Maybe try a load or two of thicker splits?


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## moresnow (Mar 10, 2016)

I am looking for a link to the installation clearances. Can't seem to find it on there website? Corner install. Most interested in the stoves rear corners to walls.  Thanks


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## LDay (Mar 10, 2016)

moresnow said:


> I am looking for a link to the installation clearances. Can't seem to find it on there website? Corner install. Most interested in the stoves rear corners to walls.  Thanks


Hi moresnow,
We are awaiting the report from the UL Safety & Clearance Testing, and anticipate having the numbers ready to post on our website and blog in the next few days. 

Lorin Day
Woodstock Soapstone Co.


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## tlhfirelion (Mar 10, 2016)

drz1050 said:


> Firelion:
> 
> It's hard to say, given each house layout/ draftiness/ level of insulation is different... I have the Ashford. Some people are heating 2000+ Sq ft with one.. my place is 1100, and on the really cold nights I leave it on full blast, and it just keeps the place mid 60s. Going to be upgrading the insulation this year, so hopefully won't have that problem next winter.
> 
> How many BTUs does your heat pump put out? Use that as your gauge..



Ok, so I've looked on both inside and outside u it's of my heat pump and taken off a few panels and can find no BTU Info.  It's a 3 ton goodman heat pump but I already knew that.  So I'm not sure how else I can zero in on the BTU number.


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## tlhfirelion (Mar 10, 2016)

drz1050 said:


> haha sorry... throw shade means to talk bad about/ disrespect/ put down/ etc... was just trying to make it clear that I wasn't doing any of that.
> 
> You're very welcome, good luck in your search!


No worries man!


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## drz1050 (Mar 10, 2016)

tlhfirelion said:


> Ok, so I've looked on both inside and outside u it's of my heat pump and taken off a few panels and can find no BTU Info.  It's a 3 ton goodman heat pump but I already knew that.  So I'm not sure how else I can zero in on the BTU number.



Not sure what model # you have, here's the BTU listing for them:
http://www.goodmanmfg.com/Portals/0/pdf/SS/SS-GSZ13.pdf


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## drz1050 (Mar 10, 2016)

Judging by those numbers, looks like the Ashford would struggle to heat your place on the really cold days, but be fine most of the time.. or you could go with the Ideal Steel, and that thing would heat your place easily.

I'm jealous of the people on here in the big new houses, heating 2000+ sq ft with the Ashford on a low burn. My house is barely over 1000, and the Ashford struggled a bit this winter. I'm going to be upgrading my insulation though, so we'll see how much of a difference that makes next year.


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## edyit (Mar 11, 2016)

I can't even begin to tell you how much improving the insulation and sealing up drafts around windows and doors helps. Its one of those things that until you do it yourself its hard to imagine the difference it makes.


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## tlhfirelion (Mar 11, 2016)

Apparently Woodstock will be offering a shaker style absolute steel hybrid with long legs.  I don' know if the price will be more or the same as the current ASH but I liked the look of that.  According to my SQ footage the rep at woodstock stove said the Ideal steel was too large for my house.


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## Babaganoosh (Mar 11, 2016)

moresnow said:


> I am looking for a link to the installation clearances. Can't seem to find it on there website? Corner install. Most interested in the stoves rear corners to walls.  Thanks



If you want a tight corner install you might not want a side loader.


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## begreen (Mar 11, 2016)

Yes, we needed a tight corner fitting stove and had to forgo side-loaders and strongly radiant stoves. Although I wanted to put in an Oslo, the T6 ended up being a good fit and heater for our house. It heats more evenly with much less temperature swing. The only thing we miss is the beautiful blue-black enamel finish. At the time the F50 and F55 were not made yet, so they were not an option. Now there are several large, good looking, close-clearance, cast iron jacketed stoves to choose from.


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## Woody Stover (Mar 11, 2016)

begreen said:


> Now there are several large, good looking, close-clearance, cast iron jacketed stoves to choose from.


That EBT sounds like the bee's knees, though...


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## drz1050 (Mar 11, 2016)

tlhfirelion said:


> According to my SQ footage the rep at woodstock stove said the Ideal steel was too large for my house.



Sq footage by itself means nothing. That rep was assuming you had a well-sealed & insulated house... tell that rep your house consumes 40k BTUs/ hr on the cold days.


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## Woody Stover (Mar 11, 2016)

drz1050 said:


> Sq footage by itself means nothing. That rep was assuming you had a well-sealed & insulated house


Which he apparently does according to post #78, and he's further south than I am. I bet I could heat that place with my Keystone most of the time. With his central stove location, the AS should _easily_ handle the load.


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## drz1050 (Mar 11, 2016)

You'd think so... and so did I, up until he said his current heat pump struggles.. which puts out close to 40k BTU.


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## begreen (Mar 11, 2016)

40K btus could be the output at 50F outdoors. The same unit could be putting out half or less that output at 32F.


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## quotejso (Mar 11, 2016)

I could go for the long legs beats bending over. What's the shaker is it the metal wings?


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## drz1050 (Mar 11, 2016)

begreen said:


> 40K btus could be the output at 50F outdoors. The same unit could be putting out half or less that output at 32F.



Welp, didn't know this.. a heat pump's output depends on outdoor temps? I've never had one, so don't know much about them.. thought the heating part was kinda just like a space heater attached to ducts. Guess not?


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## begreen (Mar 11, 2016)

An air to air heatpump extracts heat from the outside air. If it is a two or three stage unit it may kick in a backup heat source like electric resistance strips at a set temp.


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## tlhfirelion (Mar 11, 2016)

begreen said:


> An air to air heatpump extracts heat from the outside air. If it is a two or three stage unit it may kick in a backup heat source like electric resistance strips at a set temp.



My heat pump has aux heat which is heat strips.  That works surprisingly well, all be it an expensive way to heat.


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## tlhfirelion (Mar 11, 2016)

quotejso said:


> I could go for the long legs beats bending over. What's the shaker is it the metal wings?



I found this on their blog http://woodstove.com/custom-color-stove-gallery/38-stoves (scroll to the bottom) and asked the company about it.  I guess it's supposed to come out in the spring/summer.  The text that was with this pic (from memory) said this lady is 5'2" and this was a beta long legged shaker.  I assume it would come with or without the wings like the rest of the ASH.  Another link 



http://blog.woodstove.com/2015/12/new-design-preview-modified-designs.html#more


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## tlhfirelion (Jul 24, 2016)

tlhfirelion said:


> My heat pump has aux heat which is heat strips.  That works surprisingly well, all be it an expensive way to heat.




OK so I'm gonna revive an old thread here with some new info.  I put everything on hold because our old heat pump crapped out this summer and after no AC and fried wires everywhere, we had to get a new system.  SO, I have a new Rheem heat pump, 2.5 ton thats a 30,000 BTU unit with an air handler that has Aux heat.  With that financial hit I'm not sure if a new wood burning stove will happen before the end of the year, but I'm still in the research phase.  

My house isn't large, approx. 1500 sq ft, 1000 up and 500 down stairs in a partial basement so I don't need a massive stove.  That said, the century stove I've had for a few years now just doesn't throw the heat for long enough and I'm chewing thru more wood than I should be.  So my list of "wants" is as follows.

1)  Affordable - I'm not able, nor would I even if I could, spend 3-4 grand on a stove.  

2) Efficient - I would like to reduce wood usage.  

3)  REAL WORLD burn times of 7-8 hours.  I would really like to have a stove that would burn overnight and I mean heat overnight, not just smolder while the house gets colder and colder.  

You guys know more than I do about the cat vs non cat debate, the various brands and all the ins and outs.  I still hope to make this work but with my sons kidney transplant medical bills and now a new heat pump, maybe I need to have someone weld in some new parts on the old century stove and ride that train a few more years?  

If I could get any stove right now from the little research I've done, It would be the woodstock soapstone ASH with the tall shaker legs they plan too/hopefully will release this year.  Would be easy on my back.  lol  Thanks in advance for everyones feedback!


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## begreen (Jul 24, 2016)

What is your location? Have you looked into the mid to larger sized Englander stoves? The Madison sounds like it might work out well for this application. 
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/summers-heat-50-shssw01.146043/
http://www.lowes.com/pd/Summers-Heat-2-000-sq-ft-Wood-Stove/999918844


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## tlhfirelion (Jul 24, 2016)

begreen said:


> What is your location? Have you looked into the mid to larger sized Englander stoves? The Madison sounds like it might work out well for this application.
> https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/summers-heat-50-shssw01.146043/
> http://www.lowes.com/pd/Summers-Heat-2-000-sq-ft-Wood-Stove/999918844


I'm very northern Arkansas, a stones throw from the MO line.  While we don't get brutal winters like you fellas up north, we have cold snaps and ice storms where power will be out for days, single digit temps during the day and near or below zero with the wind chill at night.  I'm outside the city so I'm usually low on the totem pole to get service back so the stove becomes a heater, cook stove, clothes dryer, etc.  That exact scenario above was what caused me to tear out my old worthless fireplace and put in a wood stove in the first place a few years back.  This site was really help fun to get it installed right and it's been awesome to have.  I've run out of wood on my property that I want to cut down so now I'm having to buy firewood or get trees from people that they cut down and I process it.  It's a bit of a hassle so the less wood I have to mess with, the better, thus my desire for efficiency.    Thank you for your reply.


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## begreen (Jul 24, 2016)

Check out the Madison. It's affordable and sized right for house size and heating goals. I think it's also sold at Rural King and Farm Fleet stores if they are closer. It's sold under the Summer's Heat brand which is just a different labeled Englander.


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## tlhfirelion (Jul 24, 2016)

begreen said:


> Check out the Madison. It's affordable and sized right for house size and heating goals. I think it's also sold at Rural King and Farm Fleet stores if they are closer. It's sold under the Summer's Heat brand which is just a different labeled Englander.




I always that those were low end stoves for shops and what not?  ( no offense intended to anyone using one as I've been using a low end century stove for a few years now) 

Aside from the name, what are you paying for when you buy a more expensive stove, like say, a blaze king?


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## begreen (Jul 24, 2016)

No, not at all. There are many happy owners of Englander stoves in homes here. They make basic, affordable stoves that work well.

Blaze King stoves have a completely different burn technology. Blaze King's best feature is their fine tuned catalytic technology that provides some of the longest burn times. They are also thermostatically regulated which adds to the cost. It's a comparatively small company. Volume sales help bring down the price of the Englander. Both are great American stoves.


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## kennyp2339 (Jul 24, 2016)

BG is definitely leading you down a good path with recommending Englander stoves, They are built very well and will last for many years.
Go to homedepot website and print out the stove specs, look at the dimensions then look at the weight of the unit, then try to find another stove in the same price range that meets those specs, you will be shocked.


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## JA600L (Jul 24, 2016)

What kind of wood are you burning and how dry is it?


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## tlhfirelion (Jul 24, 2016)

JA600L said:


> What kind of wood are you burning and how dry is it?



Split red and white oak is what I burn, I try and get it at least 1 year to season but I'm guilty of throwing some green splits on a hot fire in the past tho thats not the norm.  I make all my splits small but save some big thick ones for the dead of our short winter and power outages.  I have burned pine, cedar, hickory, walnut and some random ash in there when I obtained some free wood, but the lions share is by far good old oak.  I like the use cedar because my neighbor does cedar furniture and I can get all kinds of cut offs and whatnot.  Makes it nice to start fires that way.  My other neighbor does construction so I could get cut off of pine 2X4,6,8,10,12, etc all day long if I wanted.  I do get some but that mostly to start a fire, then the oak gets on there.  I've always wanted to try Aspen but not sure how that burns.


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## tlhfirelion (Jul 26, 2016)

Would the englander madison be a noticeable upgrade from my 8 year old century stove (FW240007)?  I notice the madison has an outside air kit so I assume that would be a pretty nice improvement in and of itself, correct?


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## begreen (Jul 26, 2016)

The Madison should provide a bit longer burn time and more loading flexibility. However, it may not reduce wood consumption greatly, especially if that is a matter of the heat losses of the house.


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## tlhfirelion (Jul 26, 2016)

begreen said:


> The Madison should provide a bit longer burn time and more loading flexibility. However, it may not reduce wood consumption greatly, especially if that is a matter of the heat losses of the house.




Well, that reply was optimistic but not very enthusiastic.  I actually like the look of the stove, the price is good, the larger opening and firebox are nice, OAK is a nice option for my set up here, just wish I could get longer burns.  even an hour or two more to keep that heat pump and subsequent aux heat from kicking on as much.  I've added a lot of blown insulation into the attic this past year, but aside from something drastic like tearing out all the drywall and putting in spray foam insulation, my house is kinda done with that regard.  I am looking at sealing up my crawlspace so that may help in keeping the hardwood floors a bit warmer but thats about all I would guess.


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## begreen (Jul 26, 2016)

The increased capacity of the Englander Madison will provide longer burn times. With the increased insulation and sealing there could be a notable improvement of a couple hours. 8 hrs is not unrealistic. How long were your average Century burn times in winter?


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## tlhfirelion (Jul 26, 2016)

begreen said:


> The increased capacity of the Englander Madison will provide longer burn times. With the increased insulation and sealing there could be a notable improvement of a couple hours. 8 hrs is not unrealistic. How long were your average Century burn times in winter?




The century stove would be going good at 10 pm and by 3 am it was cooling down.  That was with hard seasoned split oak.  I say seasoned, maybe 1 full year but my moisture meter measuring from the middle of the log would show around 15% or less on average.  typically I would get up to use the head and then go load it up again.  It's been a reliable stove and easy to run but just not a good overnight burner.  if I could get 7 solid hours out of a stove that would work.  Thanks for all your help and replies.


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## begreen (Jul 26, 2016)

IIRC the Century is about 1.4 cu ft.. If that is correct the Madison has a full cu. ft additional capacity. That should provide 6-8hr burn times depending on how hard the stove is being pushed. If you want still longer burn times then go up to the 3 cu ft Englanders or Drolets. Or break the piggy bank and get a Blaze King Sirocco 30.


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## tlhfirelion (Jul 27, 2016)

begreen said:


> IIRC the Century is about 1.4 cu ft.. If that is correct the Madison has a full cu. ft additional capacity. That should provide 6-8hr burn times depending on how hard the stove is being pushed. If you want still longer burn times then go up to the 3 cu ft Englanders or Drolets. Or break the piggy bank and get a Blaze King Sirocco 30.




i'm redoing my pipe so if I did purchase the madison, would it be better to utilize single or double wall pipe from the stove to the support box?  I will be going up and out thru my roof, straight shot, approx. 15'.  I also plan to use the OAK unless the powers that be here have a good reason(s) why I would not.  Thank you


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## begreen (Jul 27, 2016)

My preference would be double-wall stove pipe. It will help draft and will stay cleaner.


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## tlhfirelion (Jul 27, 2016)

begreen said:


> My preference would be double-wall stove pipe. It will help draft and will stay cleaner.



great.  Thanks for the quick and helpful replies.


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## JA600L (Jul 27, 2016)

Are you interested in the Absolute Steel? The Madison looks like a great stove,  but it has a more peaked secondary burn technology. The absolute steel is a sophisticated hybrid that can be burned very low and slow.  What that means is those days when it's not all that terribly cold you might be able to get 20-24 hours of heat and coals left for a reload.


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## tlhfirelion (Jul 27, 2016)

JA600L said:


> Are you interested in the Absolute Steel? The Madison looks like a great stove,  but it has a more peaked secondary burn technology. The absolute steel is a sophisticated hybrid that can be burned very low and slow.  What that means is those days when it's not all that terribly cold you might be able to get 20-24 hours of heat and coals left for a reload.



I had my eyes set on the ASH yes, and that was why I posted in this thread, the long burn times are awesome.  I do realize I took it a bit off target with the Madison conversation so I do apologize to the OP for hijacking the thread.  Currently the ASH is outside the old budget so I'm having to figure out what I'm willing to settle for or if I am willing to go without a stove this winter. (you just know the first winter I do that will be the worst winter in my areas history lol)   There is never a good time to have to replace a heat pump and then you add my sons kidney transplant medical bills and a stove is pretty far down on the list.  I have been really impressed with the ASH tho and it isn't just a stove but a nice little work of art too.  Everyone that has a woodstock brand stove seems to really like them.  The madison does look like a decent stove tho and I didn't realize they made a decent stove as I thought they were just something to get by.


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## chance04 (Jul 28, 2016)

Just a thought. Does your state offer any tax credit for an efficient wood burning heater? MD offered 300 tax credit towards our IS purchase. We sold our old dutch west to help off set the new stoves cost

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## tlhfirelion (Jul 28, 2016)

chance04 said:


> Just a thought. Does your state offer any tax credit for an efficient wood burning heater? MD offered 300 tax credit towards our IS purchase. We sold our old dutch west to help off set the new stoves cost
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


I doubt it but I'll look into it.  Usually AR only offers whatever the feds debut if I install the stove far enough to the north on my lot, I may see what Missouri has to offer.  lol


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