# Spray foaming shop?



## Lme (Dec 9, 2015)

Just finished my 60x80 shop and looking at insulation options. It will have heated concrete via wood boiler. Looking at doing open cell spray foam in the propane looking cans. How effective is it? What is a sufficient amount on walls and ceiling?


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 9, 2015)

Lme said:


> Just finished my 60x80 shop and looking at insulation options. It will have heated concrete via wood boiler. Looking at doing open cell spray foam in the propane looking cans. How effective is it? What is a sufficient amount on walls and ceiling?


I think the foam panels are much cheaper, every time i look at spray foam the price makes my head spin. I usually do blown in ,if possible ,but foam panels are the next best option.


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## Highbeam (Dec 9, 2015)

Too much money. Not worth it in an open shop type application. You will find that you can get better R-value and easier installation with traditional products. I used R21 batts in the walls and R-50 cellulose blown into the attic of my 30x60 shop.

More important is proper air sealing.


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## dja950 (Dec 9, 2015)

Airsealing is what the foam does well. I'd recommend one inch to 1.5 inches of closed cell foam on the walls. That's give u r7 to r10 with a complete air seal which is greater than most people's homes. A r19 batt loses 30 percent of its r value due to air gaps around it. Impossible to cut/fit perfect and no seal. Plus you'd have to stud out the walls which is time and money, spray foam you'd apply right to the metal. I just built a 40x60 myself. For the ceiling I'm doing blown in. Not much of a cost benefit to foaming up there. Cheaper to blow in up there. 


Also I'd strongly recommend calling a contractor. Ud be surprised how much cheaper it is to have someone else do it. Those "propane cylinder" kits are for small jobs that contractors don't want to do wel because their so small it's not worth it.... They cost anywhere from 1.20 to 2 bucks a board ft (1 sq ft 1 in thick) depending on what size kit.I'm a Sprayfoam contractor and for easy jobs like a barn we charge .90 a board foot. Cheaper than what u can buy the kits for and someone else is doing it. Open cell I wouldn't recommend for a barn because it's very brittle, closed cell when cured is rock hard. Also improves the structural support...a lot of Contractors push open cell because they make more money due to higher yields. closed cell per  board foot with equal r values is only 5 to 10 cents more. Open cell is roughly .40 a board ft where like I said earlier closed is roughly .90. Way better product in many aspects for only .10 cents more for equal r values.


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## dja950 (Dec 9, 2015)

Long story short in the ceiling id defiantly do blown in. To avoid hassle of studding out the entire structure which wouldn't be cheap id suggest getting an estimate for a contractor to do the foam and compare. Probably be somewhere around .90 cents a sq ft per inch. I dont know your ceiling heights or size of doors and how many other wise i could do it for you.


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## Lme (Dec 9, 2015)

I'm still debating putting steel on the ceiling or leaving it open truss. A. My budget is about maxed. B. there will be trucks in and out and the white steel gets black from exhaust. 

I am leaning toward spray foam in hopes to seal the building


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## dja950 (Dec 9, 2015)

60x80 depending on the roof pitch will cost a lot to spray foam. Well over 5k sqft at 2inches thick is over 10k board feet. I'd bid that at .85 cents a board foot being such a large job.... A job this size would require a lot of those "propane tank" kits. Biggest ones I've seen are 600 board feet. I've used them on small jobs where it wasn't worth dragging the rig along, and they do that just as they are intended, small jobs. They're expensive


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## jebatty (Dec 10, 2015)

LME, did you insulate under the entire slab and especially 4 feet or so vertical around the perimeter. Frost creeping in and freezing under the slab is a huge heat sink.


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## velvetfoot (Dec 10, 2015)

You keep the sprayed on foam exposed on the walls?


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## Highbeam (Dec 10, 2015)

velvetfoot said:


> You keep the sprayed on foam exposed on the walls?


Not legally. It's a huge fire hazard.


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## Highbeam (Dec 10, 2015)

dja950 said:


> Airsealing is what the foam does well. I'd recommend one inch to 1.5 inches of closed cell foam on the walls. That's give u r7 to r10 with a complete air seal which is greater than most people's homes. A r19 batt loses 30 percent of its r value due to air gaps around it. Impossible to cut/fit perfect and no seal. Plus you'd have to stud out the walls which is time and money, spray foam you'd apply right to the metal.



Obviously as a spray foam contractor you're biased. I agree that spray foam is superior in every way except for the ridiculous cost. However, you are obviously wrong about the FG batt insulation loosing 30% of R-value due to air gaps. That doesn't even make sense. R-value of a material has nothing to do with whether the installer properly installs it.

Another slick thing that folks are doing with pole barns is stapling up a net type product and then blowing in cellulose.

I studded out the walls between my poles and built a proper FG batted wall just like a house. It is not expensive to stud the walls out. You can buy very wide fiberglass batts too which will allow you to minimize or eliminate the additional framing. But really, you want to add a surface anyway so having those studs provides a place to attach the sheeting on the inside.


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## velvetfoot (Dec 10, 2015)

Well, if we're talking about avoiding building walls, what's the substitute, some kind of spray on stuff?  It's only a shop, but would that look be good?


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## dja950 (Dec 10, 2015)

Highbeam said:


> Not legally. It's a huge fire hazard.



They make a paint like product that you use a paint sprayer and apply it over. 

R value is very misleading. It's determined by measuring conduction. Heat transfers three ways, and r value only measures one. You're trying to tell me there's no gaps between a stud and a the batt? Air and heat will be lost around that area... Foam creates a continuous unbroken barrier... Im not biased I have no stake in this project I'm not making anything on it. I'm giving my opinion and that's it... 
But that is also a good idea, that fiber stranded poly attached to the posts then blowing in behind it. wouldn't be the best but would be better than nothing. I guess it depends on how much the building is being heated. If being heated a lot the payback in heat savings might pay for the foam. If a weekend warrior project and only heating it every now and again than a cheaper alternative would be better. Every scenario is different and you have to look at return on investment.... I also do blown in and to be honest as a contractor i prefer it. Way less headaches and make the same money per job so I'm not really biased like you think.


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## Highbeam (Dec 10, 2015)

dja950 said:


> You're trying to tell me there's no gaps between a stud and a the batt? Air and heat will be lost around that area



Correct. No gaps. Look at my framing work, this is a job done as well as possible. If you hire this job out you may not get as good of a job. The spray foam is superior for sure but wow, the cost! If you properly air seal the wall then the only losses you have from gaps are the actual loss of R-value on that gap. If you miss 30% of the wall then you're an idiot. Start with properly spaced framing members. Like I said, you can buy wide rolls of FG, like 8' wide for cheap. Pole barn companies (Morton) sell them.

On top of those batts with VB stapled for an air seal, I installed the OSB with sealed edges, that's right, caulk all around. The ceiling has 6 mil plastic sealed and overlapping the wall batts two feet. Then R-50 cellulose blown in on top of the metal ceiling, I think it was 158 bales, brutal.  The real problem, the only thing you can't fix, is the overhead doors. Those buggers are the enemy of an air sealed project.

R-value is a valuable measurement. It is used for conduction losses when you properly air seal a job with another technology. Foam combines the R-value with an air seal and is very good at it but you can't compare spray foam to only a poorly insulated batt.


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## Highbeam (Dec 10, 2015)

velvetfoot said:


> Well, if we're talking about avoiding building walls, what's the substitute, some kind of spray on stuff?  It's only a shop, but would that look be good?



Do you want an insulated wall or not? You need to and want to protect that insulation and the outside (metal) of the wall from damage from the inside. There are roll products that provide some benefit. Usually FG with a white vinyl coating to the inside.

I'll try and find some photos of options.


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## dja950 (Dec 10, 2015)

Highbeam said:


> Correct. No gaps. Look at my framing work, this is a job done as well as possible. If you hire this job out you may not get as good of a job. The spray foam is superior for sure but wow, the cost! If you properly air seal the wall then the only losses you have from gaps are the actual loss of R-value on that gap. If you miss 30% of the wall then you're an idiot. Start with properly spaced framing members. Like I said, you can buy wide rolls of FG, like 8' wide for cheap. Pole barn companies (Morton) sell them.
> 
> On top of those batts with VB stapled for an air seal, I installed the OSB with sealed edges, that's right, caulk all around. The ceiling has 6 mil plastic sealed and overlapping the wall batts two feet. Then R-50 cellulose blown in on top of the metal ceiling, I think it was 158 bales, brutal.  The real problem, the only thing you can't fix, is the overhead doors. Those buggers are the enemy of an air sealed project.
> 
> R-value is a valuable measurement. It is used for conduction losses when you properly air seal a job with another technology. Foam combines the R-value with an air seal and is very good at it but you can't compare spray foam to only a poorly insulated batt.




Did you staple every millimeter of that batt to the stud?  Cuz that's where the small gaps are that people don't consider With the air infiltration. Sure the heats not getting through the center of that batt but around those edges where it's not sealed to the stud is where it's coming through. Ever look at a infrared image of a house with batts and one with foam? 

Is osb as interior sheathing code?


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## dja950 (Dec 10, 2015)

Like I said I'm not trying to tell you what to do.... But this is my opinion. Factor in the cost and time to stud out the walls plus the fiberglass and your time to install it because it sounds like your running a business and time is money. There's jobs I could do but hire out because i can pay someone else less than what I can make doing my own trade. then compare that to .85 cents a board foot. Compare the cost differences. If foams way more then don't go that route, if they're close then I'd do it.


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## Highbeam (Dec 10, 2015)

Here's a link to some photos of batts without full framing.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=85681

And here's one for spray foam. Not that he is face nailing girts to the poles to add a sheeted wall covering to protect the foam. Foam is the Cadillac option for sure.

http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=230875&showall=1



dja950 said:


> Did you staple every millimeter of that batt to the stud? Cuz that's where the small gaps are that people don't consider With the air infiltration. Sure the heats not getting through the center of that batt but around those edges where it's not sealed to the stud is where it's coming through. Ever look at a infrared image of a house with batts and one with foam?
> 
> Is osb as interior sheathing code?



The batt VB is stapled to face of stud, then overlapped by the next batt's VB and stapled. That double lap is on every millimeter, and then the OSB is screwed tight and sealed which compresses the double VB below it to make it air tight and the OSB itself is air tight for yet another barrier. This is all for air infiltration, not for R-value. If you didn't think that you had enough skill to properly attach the batt's VB then you could instead cover unfaced batts with plastic as is common in Canada. Air seal is more important than R-value, get it right. Then R-value can be done many ways.

I have looked at IR images of houses with batts and saw those lines at every stud. That is almost never caused by poor installation of insulation, it's called thermal bridging and is due to the warm framing members. You'll see it with spray foam houses that have wood framing bridging the wall cavity as well.

Foam does a lot of things very well. You don't need to invent deficiencies in other methods to prove that.

The OSB is legal in a detached garage.


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## Lme (Dec 10, 2015)

Framing walls is absolutely not a consideration considering I have 18ft sidewalks that would be a huge chore. I have plastic under concrete but no insulation, however do plan to put foam around edge.


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## Lme (Dec 10, 2015)

The cheapest kits I've found are .72 sq ft @ 1" and that's if you buy about 6 kits. Foam board runs about 1.15 sq ft @ 2" but then need to seal around ever sheet. The shop is mainly to park trucks and occasionally do repairs. I spent a large portion of my funds on space because that was most important. My wood source is virtually free with minimal effort, that being said it's hard for me to see an expense savings in the long run. The finish from here on out is based on available funds (cash on hand)


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## Highbeam (Dec 10, 2015)

Lme said:


> Framing walls is absolutely not a consideration considering I have 18ft sidewalks that would be a huge chore. I have plastic under concrete but no insulation, however do plan to put foam around edge.



Wow, heated concrete in South Dakota with no slab insulation? You will be well rewarded by putting that perimeter foam in.


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## dja950 (Dec 10, 2015)

Lme said:


> The cheapest kits I've found are .72 sq ft @ 1" and that's if you buy about 6 kits. Foam board runs about 1.15 sq ft @ 2" but then need to seal around ever sheet. The shop is mainly to park trucks and occasionally do repairs. I spent a large portion of my funds on space because that was most important. My wood source is virtually free with minimal effort, that being said it's hard for me to see an expense savings in the long run. The finish from here on out is based on available funds (cash on hand)


 
If your primary goal is cheap and not worried as much about heat loss, maybe spend the money on running metal panels or some type of sheathing to the 6x6 posts and blowin in cellulose from the top down, the savings from not foaming would pay for the metal at 2.00 a linear foot. Cellulose bags in bulk can be had for 9 bucks a bag. 5.5 inches of cellulose would be r15 roughly. It'd settle but just re do it after is settled to touch it up. Just blow on between the 2x12 headers.... If u wanted something temporary and cheap use fiber stranded 6mil poly and tack it to the 6x6s and blow cellulose behind it then put up your interior sheathing later over the poly. That fiber stranded stuff is meant for temporary walls and such. It's about 150 bucks for 20x100 roll and there is many different size options. I mean I can come up with a lot of different ideas for budget levels some prettier than others. The thing is going with a lesser option now can bite you later. Sometimes best option is to wait until you can afford what you really want. 

If u do the foam option id recommend getting 2 or 3 estimates. Doesn't cost a thing maybe someone can surprise and come back at .80 a board ft. For .8 cents might be worth it for them to do it. 

Just throwing out options not trying to persuade anyone or argue... Some people get very defensive when you disagree with their way. I honestly think fiberglass batts are the worst option, it's just prone to moisture and air leakage. not bad mouthing it and making stuff up  I've been accused.. I do all types of insulation, I make the same profit any all the work. Like I said already blown in is my favorite to do, way easier way less things to go wrong. 

In my own house I just built did 4in of closed cell in walls, 1 in on the  ceiling and r60 fiberglass blown in over the top. 

In my 40x60 barn. 1.5 inches closed cell on the walls because framing it in wasn't going to happen, and I'm blowing in 100 bags in the ceiling. Only going to be heated when I'm out there with a 90k btu coal stove. Figure I'd start it up the night before I wanted to work out there and should be toasty by morning.


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## Highbeam (Dec 10, 2015)

dja950 said:


> I honestly think fiberglass batts are the worst option, it's just prone to moisture and air leakage. not bad mouthing it and making stuff up I've been accused..



You. That fiberglass sure does leak moisture eh? 30% reduction in R-value too.

Batted insulation is way harder to install properly than sprayed or blown. That's an honest fact. It takes some skill and patience to do batts right.


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## dja950 (Dec 10, 2015)

Highbeam said:


> You. That fiberglass sure does leak moisture eh? 30% reduction in R-value too.
> 
> Batted insulation is way harder to install properly than sprayed or blown. That's an honest fact. It takes some skill and patience to do batts right.



Moisture and air leakage were two separate points sorry my grammar wasn't on point. 

I strongly suggest reading studies about fiberglass and its downfalls. In a lab setting it's great in real world scenarios it's not. when they do the r value tests it's in a vaccum with no air at 75 degrees. 

Another misconception about foam is not being able to run wire after which is far from fact. With closed cell you get r21 at three inches. In a 2x6 wall that leaves u 2.5 inches to do whatever you please afterward...


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## iamlucky13 (Dec 10, 2015)

30% loss sounds way too high for batt insulation unless perhaps you're assuming no air sealing. In which case, it's not really the batt that is the problem, but the improper install. The batt itself doesn't provide the sealing, so you have to do it separately.

What I've seen commonly done in sheet metal sheathed buildings is a plastic liner material placed over the batts to more or less eliminate infiltration.

The new 110' x 270' shop at my work is insulated with rigid panels that have a z-lap at each edge to help seal those joints, and cut seems are taped over. They're made from polyurethane and have an R-value of 7.3/inch, which is really high. They're flame and structural rated so they don't need to be covered. In fact, the way this building is assembled, they first placed the insulation over the skeleton and fastened the sheet metal over the insulation (I'm not sure if they used really long screws, or if the insulation actually supports the sheet metal.

However, I'm pretty sure those panels are really expensive.



Lme said:


> Framing walls is absolutely not a consideration considering I have 18ft sidewalks that would be a huge chore.



Any method of insulating 18' high walls is going to be a huge chore. Sealing and framing out for batts is probably one of the most labor intensive options, but I'm also pretty sure it's one of the lowest material cost options.

Also, what about radiant overhead heaters? They can be effective in large open spaces because the radiant heat helps keep your body temperature up even if the air temperature is cooler. I think some versions can be integrated with a boiler. They also can potentially work well in intermittently occupied spaces because you can leave the temperature really low when unoccupied, since you start feeling perceptible heat very quickly after they're turned on, rather than waiting for the air to start warming up.


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## Lme (Dec 10, 2015)

For the sidewalks here is what I'm thinking. Buy enough spray kits to spray all along the green treat and steel at bottom, as well as up and down every post to seal those void areas. A local company can cut me vinyl batt insulation to fit between posts (roughly 7'8"). This should seal up sidewall well, still in debate on ceiling.


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 11, 2015)

Highbeam said:


> However, you are obviously wrong about the FG batt insulation loosing 30% of R-value due to air gaps. That doesn't even make sense. R-value of a material has nothing to do with whether the installer properly installs it.
> 
> .


Have to disagree on that. fibreglass insulation with gaps all around it provides practically no insulation value at all. The cold simply goes around the insulation. Improperly intalled fibreglass is a waste of materials. It is very difficult to get it 100%  tight which is why i use blown in cellulose. IV been insulating  for 30 years of rehabbing old houses.


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 11, 2015)

Highbeam said:


> However, you are obviously wrong about the FG batt insulation loosing 30% of R-value due to air gaps. That doesn't even make sense. R-value of a material has nothing to do with whether the installer properly installs it.
> 
> .


Have to disagree on that. fibreglass insulation with gaps all around it provides practically no insulation value at all. The cold simply goes around the insulation. Improperly intalled fibreglass is a waste of materials. It is very difficult to get it 100%  tight which is why i use blown in cellulose. IV been insulating  for 30 years of rehabbing old houses.


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 11, 2015)

Highbeam said:


> You. That fiberglass sure does leak moisture eh? 30% reduction in R-value too.
> 
> Batted insulation is way harder to install properly than sprayed or blown. That's an honest fact. It takes some skill and patience to do batts right.


I have to agree with that. Fibreglass is almost impossible to get perfectly around electrical boxes and wire and tight against the studs. Cellulose is far superior in that respect.


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## Highbeam (Dec 11, 2015)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I have to agree with that. Fibreglass is almost impossible to get perfectly around electrical boxes and wire and tight against the studs. Cellulose is far superior in that respect.



I found a couple of examples of blown in wall cellulose. I haven't done it though. Perhaps you can offer your experiences in this relatively rare method? Specifically, in a pole barn with 8 foot framing member spacing?

The R-value of a material is a material property. It is independent of how you install it or use the R-value. To get a finished wall system to perform at a particular R-value you have to apply the materials properly which might be difficult or impossible. I think you misunderstood my statement OAK, the FG batt has an R-value that is the same at the store as it is in the wall. If as you say, the installer screws up, that R-value won't be able to prevent heat loss from the conditioned space to the outside. That's not the fault of the material but of a bad installation.

I sticked out the 12' wide bays between my poles for insulation, wall sheathing, and other reasons. It is not a structural wall supporting the roof or anything but it was done well. It is surprisingly cheap to buy the lumber for this and skill required is relatively low. You already have girts wrapping the outside of the poles, another method is to add girts to the inside just nailed to the face of the posts. This will provide a framed out wall cavity and also a place to attach interior sheathing. Then you could dump loose insulation into the cavity or even set in batts.



Seasoned Oak said:


> IV been insulating for 30 years of rehabbing old houses.



I've been having sex for almost thirty years but that doesn't mean I'm doing it right.


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## dja950 (Dec 11, 2015)

Fiberglass is a marketers dream, sounds great on paper but real world its just not very effective. I dont care how good you are you cant make it fit perfect around electrical. Theres going to be small gaps, theres going to be places where its compressed. Thats why i made the statement about losing close to 30% of the rated r value.  Real world vs lab tested are two totally different things.

To do blown in cellulose here i would tack 6mil fiber stranded poly to the posts as a temperary wall, and blow in from the top inbetween the the headers. that gives you 5.5 inches of cellulose which would give you roughly  r18. That fiberstranded poly is very tear resistant and relatively cheap.


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## dja950 (Dec 11, 2015)

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Americov...lyethylene-Construction-Film-PSR620/203635224

Can be found cheaper other places online or at a local wholesaler


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## iamlucky13 (Dec 11, 2015)

dja950 said:


> Fiberglass is a marketers dream, sounds great on paper but real world its just not very effective.



I've tried out a few different heat loss calculators on my primarily fiberglass-insulated house, and my heating consumption seems to agree pretty well with the predicted values.

Between the theory that you lose huge amounts of heat around the edges of the kraft paper, and my real world experience, I lean towards what I see on my energy bill.


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## Buzz Saw (Dec 11, 2015)

Lme said:


> Framing walls is absolutely not a consideration considering I have 18ft sidewalks that would be a huge chore. I have plastic under concrete but no insulation, however do plan to put foam around edge.


FWIW I would consider framing out and sheeting the bottom 8 or 10 feet.  That way you protect your investment and have a place for workbenches or hang a shovel without messing up the insulation.

Really enjoying this thread. I'm looking to insulate a 40x60 in the Spring and I've been trying to figure out the best method.


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## Lme (Dec 12, 2015)

The 6 mil poly sounds easy but at 18 ft I feel like I'd be blowing in more every year for a long time as it would continue to settle. Just an assumption not totally familiar with the product.


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## Buzz Saw (Dec 12, 2015)

When I remodel my last house the insulation guy blew in cellulose with the walls open.  The cellulose was sprayed in using a water mist.  That stuff packed in so tight there was no place for it to settle.  Now I don't know if that would work in a  barn without studs. In my case I'm going to stud it out to sheet the walls.


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 12, 2015)

I kind of learned by trail and error. Years after i insulated my house i thought i forgot to do the bathroom as it was the coldest room in the house despite having hot water baseboard running the whole length of the out side wall. Turned out it was the only room i did with fibreglass , the rest of the house was done with blown in. Doesnt really matter what the R value of the insulation is if it cannot or does not provide air sealing as well. Its also hard to tell if the blown in went in 100% if you dont know if theres fire stops n the wall or havn't opened the wall in old applications. Iv used both and all i can say from my experience is fibreglass is a waste of time and money for what i do. In new construction it a little easier to get it tighter but you still have wires to deal with.


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 12, 2015)

Lme said:


> The 6 mil poly sounds easy but at 18 ft I feel like I'd be blowing in more every year for a long time as it would continue to settle. Just an assumption not totally familiar with the product.


It wont settle if you can maintain around 4  PSI of pressure while filling the cavities. I use about half air and half cellulose on the air setting of the machine i use. The ceiling dont matter just loose fill works good, but the walls need to be packed tight.


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## dja950 (Dec 12, 2015)

Lme said:


> The 6 mil poly sounds easy but at 18 ft I feel like I'd be blowing in more every year for a long time as it would continue to settle. Just an assumption not totally familiar with the product.



The machine I use is a krendl 2000, which has a greater capacity then the ones at Home Depot that come free when u purchase the 10 bags but it's the same concept just don't work as well but still good enough to do this. You just have to adjust the air to product ratio accordingly. It will settle but if u did it now it'd be fine for this winter, then maybe touch it up once before next winter after its had a year to settle... It's not going to settle a crazy amout, it'll stay up there pretty good but it might a little and in my eyes you can't beat what'd u be getting on a budget. Buy 10 more bags next fall touch up what settled and blow the rest in ur ceiling....then if your budget changes and you're sick of looking at the poly just put the 29 gauge metal over it.


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## semipro (Dec 12, 2015)

The options I'd suggest for the walls in no particular order:

Contractor-sprayed foam to desired R-value
Contractor-sprayed thin foam with additional fiber insulation (flash and batt/fill) 
Foam boards to desired r-value, sealed at seams and edges (XPS or polyiso) 
Dense-packed cellulose
Some combination of above
All of these will air-seal and provide thermal insulation. 
I don't recommend DIY spray foam because of the cost.  Comparison here: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/wall-insulation-looking-for-opinions.146629/#post-1974728
In my experience fiberglass is very hard to install properly and requires a separate air barrier.  In many cases it ends up acting as an air filter and home to vermin. 
I've heard from numerous sources that you can often hire an insulating contractor to do the job for less than a DIYer can buy the materials.


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## dja950 (Dec 12, 2015)

semipro said:


> I don't recommend DIY spray foam because of the cost.  Comparison here: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/wall-insulation-looking-for-opinions.146629/#post-1974728
> In my experience fiberglass is very hard to install properly and requires a separate air barrier.  In many cases it ends up acting as an air filter and home to vermin.
> I've heard from numerous sources that you can often hire an insulating contractor to do the job for less than a DIYer can buy the materials.



You're going to be hard pressed finding a contractor spraying less than an inch. For a pole barn that big that doesn't involve a lot of prep work and clean up you might find someone to bid reasonably at .85 cents depending on your area.... I've never seen closed cell in the small tank kits at less than a dollar a board foot and my wholesaler offers us very good pricing because of the amount of material we get from them... 71 cents a board foot sounds more like open cell which is r3 an inch compared to r6 for closed cell small kits. The real stuff we get in 55 gallon drums that you need a proportioner is up to around r7.2 an inch now.


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## Highbeam (Dec 14, 2015)

dja950 said:


> To do blown in cellulose here i would tack 6mil fiber stranded poly to the posts as a temperary wall, and blow in from the top inbetween the the headers. that gives you 5.5 inches of cellulose which would give you roughly r18. That fiberstranded poly is very tear resistant and relatively cheap.



So let me get this straight. You have 6x6 poles 8 feet apart making a wall 18 feet tall. Flat girts on the outside 24" OC with metal siding screwed to it. The proposal is to staple visqueen to the inside face of the poles? What about the bottom? Won't the insulation just fall onto the slab or out of the ribs on the outside, do you really want cellulose insulation setting on the uninsulated slab where water is likely to be present from the trucks being pulled in?

Assuming you seal the bottom somehow, then you blow in loose cellulose from the top. You can see it fill and monitor settlement through the clear visqueen, cool. I expect there to be a bulge on the plastic towards the inside in the middle. Maybe a pretty big bulge, especially over time as things settle. If your staples let go on that post, bad mess. I would suggest some sort of strapping board nailed to the post to clamp the plastic sheet tightly to the post.

Then what? You can't add metal or other sheathing to this wall since there is no framing and also that bulge. To remove this plastic/cellulose system to do something else is a huge mess. An explosion of loose fill cellulose will hit the floor when you try to remove it. You could fill several dump trucks with this quantity of waste insulation.

How about this addition. Plastic as described above but before blowing in the loose fill, nail 2x4 girts to the inside of the poles horizontally every 24" OC. This is not expensive and will keep the cellulose bulge within the wall cavity, give you something to nail sheathing to, and make this investment a more permanent solution.   

If you ever have to remove a metal panel on the outside you will drain the cavity. Be ready. I also worry about the walls resistance to bulging from this loose insulation. Those bales of insulation get heavy. Over time they will tend to settle and densify at the bottom like any liquid will and exert pressure in all directions. Can the metal panels/girts hold that back? I don't know.

I would consider that wet blown cellulose before this whole plastic scheme. The wet blown is like a solid fill and won't settle or bulge panels inside or out. You do need a contractor though.


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## dja950 (Dec 14, 2015)

No you couldn't remove the metal panels with this method but there's answers to all those problems but I'm sure they'll be picked apart one by one... I dont know what answer is wanted here. Foams too expensive, framing isn't an option, cellulose method you can't do this and this or that might happen.... I don't no what to tell you. Doesn't sound like any things going to work then. I'm just spit firing ideas to help.

Never said that idea was the best, just trying to come up with an idea that was cheap and in the end just an idea.


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## rippinryno (Dec 14, 2015)

I just started looking into this topic myself so i will be following this thread. w hat iv'e gathered is that foam board doesnt' insulate well, but is dirt cheap.  spray foam insulates but is very pricey.  fiberglass batting takes some work, but has  a good R factor and is cheap.  so far it's looking like fiberglass form e.


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## Highbeam (Dec 14, 2015)

rippinryno said:


> w hat iv'e gathered is that foam board doesnt' insulate well, but is dirt cheap.



Foam board insulates very well but is actually pretty expensive and requires lots of labor and then sealing up with at least a small amount of Great Stuff type foam around the edges. It's not a bad way to go in this pole barn application because the bays are wide open, regular shapes, and are backed with 2x6 girts that you can use to fasten the foam boards.

I insulated under and around my slab with 2" of foam. I bought it at the factory and it was still pretty pricey. No other option though for underslab.

For the OP, I just can't imagine a situation where not sheathing the walls on top of whatever insulation you choose will be wise. Seems all insulation types are all prone to damage or present a fire danger when left naked.  I also don't know of any sheathing method that doesn't require some sort of framing, at least the face girts. So you may as well take advantage of the sheathing framing and use it to help you insulate.


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## Buzz Saw (Dec 14, 2015)

Highbeam said:


> I would consider that wet blown cellulose before this whole plastic scheme. The wet blown is like a solid fill and won't settle or bulge panels inside or out. You do need a contractor though.



The contractor that did my wet blown cellulose dud it cheaper,materials & labor, than I could buy just the material.

Two guys and 10 hours later they were done.  The only mess they left behind was the usual dust that comes along with cellulose.  

After 3-4 days of drying the walls were drywalled.  I loved the stuff. Too bad the guy retired. [emoji20]


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## Highbeam (Dec 14, 2015)

dja950 said:


> No you couldn't remove the metal panels with this method but there's answers to all those problems but I'm sure they'll be picked apart one by one... I dont know what answer is wanted here. Foams too expensive, framing isn't an option, cellulose method you can't do this and this or that might happen.... I don't no what to tell you. Doesn't sound like any things going to work then. I'm just spit firing ideas to help.
> 
> Never said that idea was the best, just trying to come up with an idea that was cheap and in the end just an idea.



Please stick around and help. There are others following this thread too and we can all learn from your experience. Each method, and there are several and even some clever ones, have plusses and minuses. If you have the cash, the spray foam is ideal.

It's one of those cheap, good, and fast situations where you can only have two.


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## Highbeam (Dec 14, 2015)

Oh and for wires with FG batts, if you are anal like me and willing to take the time, you simply split the batt the long way and weave the back of the batt behin the wire and the front of the batt in front of it. They join right back up below the wire and make a perfect seal. Cutting around J-boxes is way harder but taking your time you can make it work there too. Also realize that each of these potential imperfections are extremely small deals compared to the entire wall system. It doesn't ruin the R-value of the rest of the wall if one little square inch has no insulation behind the sealed VB. It doesn't need to be 100% perfect.


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## Lme (Dec 14, 2015)

My plan has always been to do 2x4 girt with 8ft steel around inside question is at what point based on insulation strategy. The idea of filling that cavity would be effective and reasonable I do believe. The concern of moisture under there could be an issue. Rolling cut-to-fit vinyl back fg batt from top down to 8 ft may look the best at that point. 

Local contractor quoted $2 sq ft at 2 inch to do spray foam. Easily be 15k+


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## dja950 (Dec 14, 2015)

Insulating a large barn that's 5000sqft with 18ft sidewalls isn't going to be cheap no matter what. This is a huge project and waiting until you have the funds to do it right is some times the best option..... It's hard for us to give the best advice because we don't know what the real obstacles and real goals are for your personal situation. Is this a down and dirty pole barn where we're just trying to keep a little heat, or is this going to be a nice shop where its being heated 24/7 and want it to look nice inside. Everyone has a different definition of "shop" and "tight budget" we don't know the real financial situation that exists because it's not "ours." the best we can do is offer a wide variety of solutions and hope one sticks to your needs and goals


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## dja950 (Dec 14, 2015)

Lme said:


> My plan has always been to do 2x4 girt with 8ft steel around inside question is at what point based on insulation strategy. The idea of filling that cavity would be effective and reasonable I do believe. The concern of moisture under there could be an issue. Rolling cut-to-fit vinyl back fg batt from top down to 8 ft may look the best at that point.
> 
> Local contractor quoted $2 sq ft at 2 inch to do spray foam. Easily be 15k+



That's 1.00 dollar a board foot on barn is high but I guess I tend to bid low because I'm
Not out here to rip people off, I'm out here to make a decent living.... Problem with Sprayfoam is lack of competition for the customer. Pole barns have little prep and little clean up and easy wide open spraying between posts. You can use a large mix chamber put out a lot of material quick. I guess he probably didn't like the 18ft ceilings, that's not a problem for me since I have a scissor lift at my disposal. But in a free market system supply and demand rules all. Sorry I would of hoped it would of been cheaper for you. I would of recommended an inch personally anyway since it is just a pole barn with free heat. R7 of foam will amaze you at how well it works with the air sealing your getting and just enough of a thermal break.


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## dja950 (Dec 14, 2015)

That's 1.00 dollar a board foot on barn is high but I guess I tend to bid low because I'm
Not out here to rip people off, I'm out here to make a decent living.... Problem with Sprayfoam is lack of competition for the customer. Pole barns have little prep and little clean up and easy wide open spraying between posts. You can use a large mix chamber put out a lot of material quick. I guess he probably didn't like the 18ft ceilings, that's not a problem for me since I have a scissor lift at my disposal. But in a free market system supply and demand rules all. Sorry I would of hoped it would of been cheaper for you. I would of recommended an inch personally anyway since it is just a pole barn with free heat. R7 of foam will amaze you at how well it works with the air sealing your getting and just enough of a thermal break.


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## jebatty (Dec 15, 2015)

No challenge from me on foam being a great insulator. My 32 x 48 x 16h pole barn shop has 6" fiberglass batts in the walls, about 18" of blown in fiberglass in the ceiling, 2" foam board under the entire slab, and 2" foam down 4' around the perimeter. Also one 12 x 12 overhead door, two entry doors, and two slider windows. Heat loss with temps in the range of +25 to +35F outside is about 6,000 Btuh, and in the -30F to 0F range about 15-18,000 Btuh. In-floor pex set at constant 61F. I'm pretty sure foam in the walls would result in lower heat loss. OTOH the heat is from my Tarm gasification boiler with 1000 gal storage, all in the shop, and the heat loss I experience only results in use of about 4 cords/year of pine fire wood for the Tarm. The fiberglass was quite inexpensive. The firewood is from our land.


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## Retired Guy (Dec 23, 2015)

There is always this:
http://www.cellulose.org/HomeOwners/SprayedCelluloseInsulation.php


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## Buzz Saw (Dec 23, 2015)

Retired Guy said:


> There is always this:
> http://www.cellulose.org/HomeOwners/SprayedCelluloseInsulation.php


That's the stuff I was talking about. One word of caution though, it doesn't seal as well as you would think.  My house was still drafty around electrical boxes and the sill plate.


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 24, 2015)

Buzz Saw said:


> That's the stuff I was talking about. One word of caution though, it doesn't seal as well as you would think.  My house was still drafty around electrical boxes and the sill plate.


Then its not installed tight enough,about as bad as fibreglass. Blown in dry at 5PSI you will NOT get drafts around your outlets. A sillplate draft could just as easily be coming from UNDER the sill plate. No cavity insulation will stop that as its below the cavity and above the foundation wall,you either need to spray foam for that or caulk.


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## Buzz Saw (Dec 31, 2015)

Just got my first estimate for my 40x60x14' pole barn.  
Closed cell 2" $6,500. 
Open cell 4" $5,000

Contractor said both come in at R-14ish.

Also would do the ceiling in Open cell 6" $4500.

How do those prices compare to other estimates?  This is my first response of 6 contractors I've contacted.


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## Highbeam (Jan 2, 2016)

All that for r14!


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## Buzz Saw (Jan 4, 2016)

2nd quote. This is a quote for approximately 2,407 square feet  4" open cell spray foam ~ $2,700.  Numbers are going the right way!

.


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## dja950 (Jan 11, 2016)

Buzz Saw said:


> 2nd quote. This is a quote for approximately 2,407 square feet  4" open cell spray foam ~ $2,700.  Numbers are going the right way!
> 
> .


What size door openings do u have


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## dja950 (Jan 11, 2016)

dja950 said:


> What size door openings do
> 
> 
> Buzz Saw said:
> ...


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## Buzz Saw (Jan 11, 2016)

dja950 said:


> What size door openings do u have


12 x14, 9x10, 9x10, 36" entry door,  and 4 3x4 windows


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## dja950 (Jan 11, 2016)

Buzz Saw said:


> 12 x14, 9x10, 9x10, 36" entry door,  and 4 3x4 windows


price i would quote for closed cell for 40x60x14 total meaning I'm not subtracting door openings at 2 inches would be just under 5k. I'd need to subtract over head doors.. Assuming their 10x10 and there's two I'd say 4600...That's r14. That 2nd wuote u told me seems off. That's .28 cents a board foot which is less than what the material cost. It's about .37 just for the open cell material... I'd Double check that quote and if u hired make sure he layed down a true four inches. Poke it with a nail in a bunch of spots to measure depth. A lot of guys quote low then don't spray the depth they say... Open cell is usually only 10 percent cheaper for equal r value and the benefits of closed in my opinion make up for that minimal cost difference


I posted that earlier but I suck at made it show up in a quote u had to click to expand . I'll revise it here with the know openings. 414 sq ft of openings.. U have a perimeter of 200ft at 14 ft ceilings. That's 2800 sq ft. 2800-414 is 2386 sq ft of area to be sprayed. Multiply that by 2 for 2 inches think. 4772 board ft.  4772x $0.9 gives me a total estimate of 4300. In my area that'd be my quote 4300 bucks for the walls at r14


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## Ashful (Jan 11, 2016)

I did closed-cell spray foam in my barn.  Didn't think it was too expensive, when weighing the other options, but my application was unique.  I can say I'm amazed with the results.  It is un-paralleled for air sealing, and the installer gave me at least R7 - R15 beyond what I paid for.  It also really does stiffen up the whole building, as light as the stuff is, due to the enormous amount of surface contact.


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