# general overall attitude towards pellet stoves these days



## smwilliamson (Jan 21, 2014)

just sayin


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## Stevekng (Jan 21, 2014)

I don't know if you are asking for comments or giving one based on your emoticon (smiley face). Here's my comment. Pellet stoves are a great way of saving money. That being said, The need for qualified techs is not being met and the quality of pellets is still a big issue. Also, I am seeing more posts about bad installations by dealers who don't back what they sell with a good installation or good service. I believe that this may be the result of cost cutting by some businesses who are more interested the bottom line than a happy customer.

I am very satisfied with my stoves but my satisfaction is the result of self education of the ins and outs of owning and maintaining a stove. If the industry had a set up like the oil and gas furnace industry, where you could buy pellets at a locked in pre buy price and get a service plan that would be a hedge against break downs, I think you would see pellet stoves go to the next level in customer satisfaction. Dealers would demand stoves and pellets that would cause fewer problems. They would train their techs so that there would be fewer service calls and so on. I don't know if government regulation would be a result of these changes; I would hope not. But we all know that Big Brother is always out there looking for ways to pick our pockets.


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## jimfrompa (Jan 21, 2014)

Stevekng said:


> I don't know if you are asking for comments or giving one based on your emoticon (smiley face). Here's my comment. Pellet stoves are a great way of saving money. That being said, The need for qualified techs is not being met and the quality of pellets is still a big issue. Also, I am seeing more posts about bad installations by dealers who don't back what they sell with a good installation or good service. I believe that this may be the result of cost cutting by some businesses who are more interested the bottom line than a happy customer.
> 
> I am very satisfied with my stoves but my satisfaction is the result of self education of the ins and outs of owning and maintaining a stove. If the industry had a set up like the oil and gas furnace industry, where you could buy pellets at a locked in pre buy price and get a service plan that would be a hedge against break downs, I think you would see pellet stoves go to the next level in customer satisfaction. Dealers would demand stoves and pellets that would cause fewer problems. They would train their techs so that there would be fewer service calls and so on. I don't know if government regulation would be a result of these changes; I would hope not. But we all know that Big Brother is always out there looking for ways to pick our pockets.


I couldn't agree more about the quality of dealers/technicians.  This is my first year owning a pellet stove and my gut feel is that more training should be provided by the manufacturers to the technicians.  If I were a young man looking for a good career, I would try to get factory training from the biggest manufacturers and start my own repair business.  No doubt in my mind that the future will include many more wood burning, coal, and pellet stoves - oil and propane will dwindle in supply and gas is not available to many rural customers.


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## Bioburner (Jan 21, 2014)

If they can't get propain delivered, attitudes will change. With the propain price hitting a state record high last week and its -21 this AM .


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## tjnamtiw (Jan 21, 2014)

I believe that pellet stoves will continue to be a niche market for the reasons mentioned above UNTIL the established HVAC dealers in towns are taught about the virtues AND limitations of pellet stoves and THEY begin to stock, install, and service them.  For as many questions as are asked on this forum and others, it is or should be very obvious that pellet stoves would be a lucrative service branch for the HVAC dealers, if they only took the time to learn about them.  It's staring them right in the face and they don't see it.  Why pellet stoves haven't moved mainstream yet is beyond me.
Since some pellet stove manufacturers have also recognized the virtues of coal (my pet peive), it makes equal sense that these same dealers in areas where coal is reasonably priced should learn about and sell coal stoves.  Remember that coal has about 60% MORE energy per pound than pellets and eventually (3 more years) it will again be embrassed as a viable source of heat. To ignore MODERN coal stove technology which offers similar sized units that put out 2 to 3 times more btu's is insane IMHO. 
So I would suggest to all stove manufacturers to strongly try to get HVAC dealers on board as installers and service people.  That is the future for pellets.


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## moey (Jan 21, 2014)

Its a space heater that needs maintaining.


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## BrotherBart (Jan 21, 2014)

Just a passing fad. Will never last.


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## john193 (Jan 21, 2014)

Personally i'm ok with it being and staying a niche market.  Once the big guys get in, then it will all go down hill and costs will rise.  I'm not interested in my local HVAC dealer (who also sells oil) to be my pellet guy.  I'd rather what I pay for pellets stay within the local community and not line the pockets of big industry.


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## P38X2 (Jan 21, 2014)

I agree, while it's selfish thinking, I love that there's crappy dealers, bad techs, people who are essentially too lazy to lift a 40# bag of pellets, and those same people thinking cleaning a pellet stove every month is too much work. Keep paying that oil/propain company. They need the $$$$

I say make pellet bags 60 pounders. Weed out a few more


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## Ctcarl (Jan 21, 2014)

I couldn't agree more. I get comments from friends. That say how was cleaning your stove with a smile.that was because my previous stove was full of problems. Now with my haram I say how I do it and don't get the sarcastic smiles.Call me paranoid but I like are community small.if it becomes big then you have pellet prices being raised then are friendly government start to tax them.also as far as techs. The first stove I had the guy was like a robot getting annoyed at the questions I asked. The tech who installed my harman had a real passion for what he does and answered all my questions and more .JMO


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## Stevekng (Jan 21, 2014)

moey said:


> Its a space heater that needs maintaining.


From fires on the floor of a cave to a pellet furnace or the most advanced heat pump or solar collector, they all heat spaces. They all need maintaining too, from the stick on the campfire to the batteries on a solar collector.


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## Stevekng (Jan 21, 2014)

john193 said:


> Personally i'm ok with it being and staying a niche market.  Once the big guys get in, then it will all go down hill and costs will rise.  I'm not interested in my local HVAC dealer (who also sells oil) to be my pellet guy.  I'd rather what I pay for pellets stay within the local community and not line the pockets of big industry.


Competition is a good thing, in quality of training and service and in goods or materials. The consumer wins and the supplier will have to keep up to stay afloat. There will always be unfavorable aspects of this process, but it's not a perfect world. There is no such thing as "local" in economics or politics. We all rely on global conditions.


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## PassionForFire&Water (Jan 21, 2014)

Very interesting tread.

My 2 cents:
As long as we don't have pellet stoves out there that can mechanically clean the burn pot for optimum burn efficiency and that have some sort of "technology" on board that squeezes the most energy out of the burning pellets it can not be considered a serious heating appliance and in my humble opinion it just is a very inefficient space heater.
Look at the combustion technology in a pellet stove. Basically 10-15-20 years old.
On a positive note, the Europeans are not doing a better job with their pellet stoves.
Their pellet boilers are top notch and improvements are continuously made.

Hopefully the new EPA requirements will clean house, like it did for the wood stoves many years ago


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## DOLLARBILL (Jan 21, 2014)

All I know for the little work I have to do Im savingBIG and thats fine by me as with buying ANYTHING one must do their homework and decide which way to go ! For me my second Stove purchase was easy after my 1st harman NEVER broke down in 6 seasons ! pellets well one year its one brand the next  may not be the same ! All in all Im a Happy Camper !I have rental Apartments and wish I could put a pelllet boiler in there but will settle for Natural Gas which over Oil is a Huge savings Oil Dealers are a dying breed if you ask me Ill never be able to understand how in the coldest of winter they came raise the price of a gallon by better than 25 cents they deserve what they get no more Business from me or you !


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## warmerwithpellets (Jan 21, 2014)

Great thread. Eyes wide open with a pellet stove, as there is very little attention to service in this industry. Lot's of promises and over-selling, very few returned calls when you need someone.

You will save a substantial amount of money heating with pellets as opposed to oil or propane, but the service pales in comparison.


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## MCPO (Jan 21, 2014)

, 





tjnamtiw said:


> I believe that pellet stoves will continue to be a niche market for the reasons mentioned above UNTIL the established HVAC dealers in towns are taught about the virtues AND limitations of pellet stoves and THEY begin to stock, install, and service them.  For as many questions as are asked on this forum and others, it is or should be very obvious that pellet stoves would be a lucrative service branch for the HVAC dealers, if they only took the time to learn about them.  It's staring them right in the face and they don't see it.  Why pellet stoves haven't moved mainstream yet is beyond me.
> Since some pellet stove manufacturers have also recognized the virtues of coal (my pet peive), it makes equal sense that these same dealers in areas where coal is reasonably priced should learn about and sell coal stoves.  Remember that coal has about 60% MORE energy per pound than pellets and eventually (3 more years) it will again be embrassed as a viable source of heat. To ignore MODERN coal stove technology which offers similar sized units that put out 2 to 3 times more btu's is insane IMHO.
> So I would suggest to all stove manufacturers to strongly try to get HVAC dealers on board as installers and service people.  That is the future for pellets.


Pellet stoves will never be mainstream because there is too much daily feeding and maintenance involved. Sure we few owners don`t mind but we are a minority .
Also pellet stoves are space heaters and they suck at heating a house evenly.
There`s nothing easier and  safer ,or more efficient , comfortable , and quiet than a central heating system.


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## tjnamtiw (Jan 21, 2014)

MCPO said:


> ,
> Pellet stoves will never be mainstream because there is too much daily feeding and maintenance involved. Sure we few owners don`t mind but we are a minority .
> Also pellet stoves are space heaters and they suck at heating a house evenly.
> There`s nothing easier and  safer ,or more efficient , comfortable , and quiet than a central heating system.


They may never and probably never should be your main source of heat; however, that by no means should bar them from being 'mainstream'.  They can be used to supplement the main heat source such as a heat pump in extremely cold conditions (my scenario).  Heating contractors sell wood burning inserts for many new construction houses as well as refurbs so why not have them sell pellet stoves and give the service that is so badly lacking by many present sellers (not the ones here, though    ) 
Sure, keep it local as someone said but that doesn't mean that you wouldn't get better, faster, more knowledgeable service.  I live in a group of very small towns and there are a LOT of HVAC guys available to  call NOW if my heat pumps go belly up.  But if I want service on my pellet stove, the closest guy is 60 miles of mountain roads away!  I knew that going into the endeavor so I did my research and felt comfortable learning to do my own maintenance, which is dirt simple!


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## tjnamtiw (Jan 21, 2014)

PassionForFire&Water said:


> Very interesting tread.
> 
> My 2 cents:
> As long as we don't have pellet stoves out there that can mechanically clean the burn pot for optimum burn efficiency and that have some sort of "technology" on board that squeezes the most energy out of the burning pellets it can not be considered a serious heating appliance and in my humble opinion it just is a very inefficient space heater.
> ...



Bixby's do that but unfortunately the owner screwed everyone but himself!


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## boo boo (Jan 21, 2014)

Love the burning.
If we don't develop an iphone app for filling and cleaning these things may die out for the next genaration


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## jdinny (Jan 21, 2014)

We love our P43.
   We bought it as a supplement to our high efficiency condensate boiler, and are happily surprised that it takes care of the whole house, with the exception of my 90yo mom's room, and our son's room. We built the house in '09 so it is super insulated, but still, I never expected this.
  It sure beats the devil out of cutting, splitting, and stacking wood. At 60 yo, I've had enough of that!
The bags could be 60# or 100#, we still love it


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## Stevekng (Jan 21, 2014)

PassionForFire&Water said:


> Very interesting tread.
> 
> My 2 cents:
> As long as we don't have pellet stoves out there that can mechanically clean the burn pot for optimum burn efficiency and that have some sort of "technology" on board that squeezes the most energy out of the burning pellets it can not be considered a serious heating appliance and in my humble opinion it just is a very inefficient space heater.
> ...


You sell pellet furnaces and heaters but do you own one? You have an interesting attitude for someone who sells pellet devices.


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## boomhour (Jan 21, 2014)

PassionForFire&Water said:


> Very interesting tread.
> 
> My 2 cents:
> As long as we don't have pellet stoves out there that can mechanically clean the burn pot for optimum burn efficiency and that have some sort of "technology" on board that squeezes the most energy out of the burning pellets it can not be considered a serious heating appliance and in my humble opinion it just is a very inefficient space heater.
> ...



Au contraire, I beg to differ.  The Paromax line of pellet stoves, with the ash management system, and the Italian-made stoves, are what the new EPA ratings about to come online are all about.  With gasification, these stoves are what other companies may have to look to, to comply with the new stove ratings down the road.  Uncle Sam may not tell you that your stove is old-school, but your insurance company has the higher power, I believe.


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## smwilliamson (Jan 22, 2014)

My emoticon lacked any expression and slightly aggrivated. I'm tired. Some of you who may have their own biz...or any teacher with 23 kids can relate....how many questions can you field in a day, in an hour, in a minute, in a second...and every day, every hour ,every minute, every second its the same one over and over and over again. My pellet stove is doing this, or doing that or not doing this but it never did that and why is doing this or that but not this.....I go home everyday completely exhausted. Seriously man....what's wrong with people....? THEY ARE SPACE HEATERS not MIRACLE WORKERS and they ain't the answer to not using the TSTAT. "I aint got no other heat", "Everyday you can't get here is one more day I'm spending money I shouldn't be" Seriously, this is what I deal with every day times 200.

I'm failing the entire world and industry because I stayed home an extra 15 minutes to put my kid on the buss or go home early to plow the driveway so my wife could get out and go grocery shopping. Yes, I'm talking about you the guy who's 26 year old stove you bought on CL for $350 that stopped working this afternoon and it's going to be minus 200 degrees tonight and your kids are sleeping at you mothers because I'm the jerk.

Thanks guys! I feel better now!


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## smwilliamson (Jan 22, 2014)

boomhour said:


> Au contraire, I beg to differ.  The Paromax line of pellet stoves, with the ash management system, and the Italian-made stoves, are what the new EPA ratings about to come online are all about.  With gasification, these stoves are what other companies may have to look to, to comply with the new stove ratings down the road.  Uncle Sam may not tell you that your stove is old-school, but your insurance company has the higher power, I believe.


yeah, your gas-a-ma-blender stove is still a stove that most people cannot wrap their minds around how to use properly so the efficiency that thing is capable of diminishes by 30% or more pretty quick. I saw that stove when it was Dell-Point and when it was the Europa 75. No big changes...most of the people who have them have absolutely no idea cause it came with their house when the bought it...no parts for it. No service for it. Claude cannot even figure out a way to accept PayPal without it taking 15 phone calls and 3 weeks of back and forth....just sayin.

oh, and those Italian jobbers...most of them are made in China, imported to Italy then marked up huge to sell to us. Seriously though...in this thread, I may just say something bad about every single manufacturer. Thread of the pissed off reviews! Anyone care to have me rant some more?


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## SwineFlue (Jan 22, 2014)

smwilliamson said:


> Thanks guys! I feel better now!






smwilliamson said:


> Anyone care to have me rant some more?



Hey, we all need to "vent" now & then. Go for it...   It's kinda like the leafblower trick to help us breathe easier


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## becasunshine (Jan 22, 2014)

MCPO said:


> ,
> Pellet stoves will never be mainstream because there is too much daily feeding and maintenance involved. Sure we few owners don`t mind but we are a minority .
> Also pellet stoves are space heaters and they suck at heating a house evenly.
> There`s nothing easier and  safer ,or more efficient , comfortable , and quiet than a central heating system.



After using a Napoleon pellet stove every season since installation in September 2008, and finally getting this 1959 brick/block bungalow sealed up adequately and with enough attic insulation, I can tell you for certain that the pellet stove heats this house a lot more quietly - and, in some particular ways, a lot more evenly- than my modern natural gas furnace.

Our pellet stove is located in a corner at one end of the house.  The gas furnace is in a corner at the other end.   The HVAC thermostat is in between the two, in a hallway in the center of the house.

The kitchen and laundry room are at the opposite end of the house from the pellet stove.  (The furnace is in the laundry room.)  The laundry room has no HVAC vent in it.  Because the laundry room has no vent, and because the laundry room and the kitchen are at the far end of the house from the pellet stove, that area can be a bit chilly when outside temps are in the teens or single digits.  The pilot light in the gas water heater throws off enough heat to keep the laundry room at a reasonable temperature, however, and when the water heater fires up, there's that many more BTU's in the laundry room.  I solve the kitchen temperature gradient issue by cooking dinner.  

As far as noise, we are in a bit of a different situation than most because our pellet stove is not in the room in which we sit to watch t.v.- it's one room over.  Convection currents carry the heat into our living room and the bedrooms easily enough, and we aren't trying to hear the t.v. over the stove's convection blower.

I am so accustomed to the nuanced white noise of the stove's fan in the other room, that low, quiet hum, and the ever so slightly present tinkle of pellets falling into the pot, that on the rare occasion when the gas furnace does fire up, it sounds like a jumbo jet landing in the house.  If it fires up overnight or early in the morning it wakes us up.

As far as even heating, we are lucky in that regard.  Air sealing this old house as best we could and adding insulation in the attic really helped us hang onto the BTU's produced by the stove.  I won't argue at you for a minute about the fact that the kitchen end of the house is cooler than the stove end of the house- but I will point out that the stove is producing heat and dumping BTU's into the house continuously.  The furnace fires up, blasts heat into the house, and then waits for the house to cool down, the thermostat to drop, and does it all over again.  And we have the thermostat programmed to fire the furnace at a one degree lag- so it's not like we are letting the house cool down by two or three degrees before the furnace fires up again.

After 5.5 years with the pellet stove, I find that I notice the "blast heat/cool down" disparity in heating evenness more than I notice the temperature falling off in the kitchen.

But that's just me- YMMV.

P.S. As far as safety, I wouldn't necessarily rank my gas furnace as safer than my pellet stove.  We keep both cleaned and in good repair.  If my pellet stove goes bonkers, I can threaten it with the fire extinguisher.  I can empty the fire extinguisher onto/into it.  I can throw the fire extinguisher at the pellet stove, throw the cat out of the window, and head for the nearest doorway with The Hubs and the 80 lbs. dog in tow.

If the gas furnace, fed by the gas lines over which I have no control, goes bonkers, I doubt I'll even know what happened.  Threatening the gas furnace with a fire extinguisher sounds like a quick study in futility to me...


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## P38X2 (Jan 22, 2014)

Well seeing you have more than enough customers, and as long as you're not burnt out on the trade so bad you need a change, I can offer the first 2 ideas that came to mind.

1) Hire a qualified assistant. Yes, I realize it's probably hard to find the right one, and one that's willing to work on a seasonal basis (I assume your workload lightens up significantly in the off season and pellet stoves is the only thing you do)

2) Learn to say "NO, I'm sorry." and tighten your radius of service. I know this is probably difficult as well, as you sell stoves. Plan to always service what you sell, and start using more discretion when taking service calls on stoves not sold by you. You bet it'll suck for the customer to hear you say, "sorry, I can't", but just briefly explain your situation and leave it at that. What else can you do?

Obviously there's more aspects than that, and you don't want someone opening up down the street with a bunch of vans with "Pellet Squad" plastered on the side.

Assuming you aren't on the cusp of financial disaster, is it really necessary?.....or worth it? To me, time with my daughter is THE most important thing. If my job was interfering with my life, and ultimately her life, I'd find a new job, downsize the house, cut spending wherever I could, etc. In other words, do whatever it took to find the balance.

Hopefully you don't take this post as being written in an obnoxiously cut and dried fashion. I'm just offering my $.02

On a side note, can you come fix my stove? There's no fire. I see what looks like a plug lying on the floor under the outlet. Is it supposed to be unplugged? Can you drive up here and look at it? Right now?


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## smwilliamson (Jan 22, 2014)

P38X2 said:


> Well seeing you have more than enough customers, and as long as you're not burnt out on the trade so bad you need a change, I can offer the first 2 ideas that came to mind.
> 
> 1) Hire a qualified assistant. Yes, I realize it's probably hard to find the right one, and one that's willing to work on a seasonal basis (I assume your workload lightens up significantly in the off season and pellet stoves is the only thing you do)
> 
> ...


Problem being is that I DID hire someone who actually does a very good job, perhaps too good.

I was talking to Mike Holton from the boards here (Englander) and I was talking about phone systems and that how every monday in Oct. we get like 300 calls. I was thinking that we may need to go for a calling service just to get rid of the voice mail and actually have people pick up the phone...problem as he stated..."whatever you do you have to have enough run way to take off!" I guess they went that route for awhile and the problem was that the phone service was too good at what they do. Every call got answered, problem was there wasn't enough time in the week to answer one day's worth of calls....the balance I need to find with the office is just because you can answer the phone everytime it rings still doesn't mean I have all the answers when it rings...aye aye aye. And it's not the number of calls or answers that really gets to me...it's the attitude of many who do call and have an attitide like because their stove is broken that somehow I'm the bad guy cause I haven't got there to fix it yet. I'll figure it out, spring will come soon. I will breathe again, see my wife and kids again, dream and such...


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## MountainSean (Jan 22, 2014)

I understand exactly what you mean Scott. Only for me it is more of why can't we UPS things from Montana to Boston overnight for4 bucks or 2 day air for free like Amazon can...... I am really beginning to hate Amazon. Or that it is our fault that we don't know someone in the middle of Kansas who can come fix a stove on 20 minutes notice. At least 15 -20 phone calls a day for stupid stuff. Can I rant with you?
.
.
.
.
.
Thank goodness it is January and things will start slowing down soon, I am ready for Summer to be here.


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## becasunshine (Jan 22, 2014)

smwilliamson said:


> Problem being is that I DID hire someone who actually does a very good job, perhaps too good.
> 
> I was talking to Mike Holton from the boards here (Englander) and I was talking about phone systems and that how every monday in Oct. we get like 300 calls. I was thinking that we may need to go for a calling service just to get rid of the voice mail and actually have people pick up the phone...problem as he stated..."whatever you do you have to have enough run way to take off!" I guess they went that route for awhile and the problem was that the phone service was too good at what they do. Every call got answered, problem was there wasn't enough time in the week to answer one day's worth of calls....the balance I need to find with the office is just because you can answer the phone everytime it rings still doesn't mean I have all the answers when it rings...aye aye aye. And it's not the number of calls or answers that really gets to me...it's the attitude of many who do call and have an attitide like because their stove is broken that somehow I'm the bad guy cause I haven't got there to fix it yet. I'll figure it out, spring will come soon. I will breathe again, see my wife and kids again, dream and such...



Dude, I wish I lived in Massachusetts, cause I'd help you out with the calls.

I agree, it's an interesting interface between stove users and technical assistance, between consumers and stove shops, and between stoves and their owners.  We went into owning/using a pellet stove with some once-removed family/friend experience with wood stoves.  We knew that the word "stove" does not equal "set it and forget it."  We realized that it was going to take time for us to learn how to use the thing (hey, every bag of pellets is a new experience!) and that it was going to be ongoing maintenance, and that we wanted to learn to do it ourselves if for no other reason than to save the money on that service call.

All that being said, even we required some hand-holding, and sometimes I *still* do.  (Ask Mike Holton about the day that I couldn't get the vent pipes back together correctly, or look up the thread where I was trying to figure out what thing in there was the vacuum switch, etc. etc.)

And I don't think that any one person understands how much is being asked, collectively, from the guy answering the phone.  There really aren't  lot of people around who know how to trouble shoot these stoves, or who have the parts in stock, or who know enough to give you an ear and a hand over the phone when the stove is acting up and you don't know what's wrong.  I've been guilty of bending an ear or two over the phone myself- and I *try* to be aware that I'm only one of a cast of thousands that's screaming for help at any given moment.

I don't know what the answer is.  I do suspect that as long as there are central heating systems with remotely supplied or delivered fuel and automatic thermostats, those of us who are willing to take some hands on responsibility for our heat will be in the minority, and those who are trained enough to bail us out of the trouble we get ourselves in will be even fewer.


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## becasunshine (Jan 22, 2014)

MountainSean said:


> I understand exactly what you mean Scott. Only for me it is more of why can't we UPS things from Montana to Boston overnight for4 bucks or 2 day air for free like Amazon can...... I am really beginning to hate Amazon. Or that it is our fault that we don't know someone in the middle of Kansas who can come fix a stove on 20 minutes notice. At least 15 -20 phone calls a day for stupid stuff. Can I rant with you?
> .
> .
> .
> ...



We remain your biggest fans, Sean.  Your magnet is on the fridge, and it's our first and only stop when we need parts.  The shop from which we bought the stove doesn't carry parts, gaskets, etc. but YOU do, and for this, you are our hero.


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## jdinny (Jan 22, 2014)

Wow!
I really feel bad for him.


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## becasunshine (Jan 22, 2014)

^^ I've been That Person on the Phone, even up until this season- I'm embarrassed to admit it but it happened.  And it was The Perfect Storm.  It was right before a holiday, it was supposed to get *very* cold in the next couple of days, and for the first time since we've owned the stove, twisting off the vent diffuser outside twisted the pipe that threaded the thimble into the house.

And in the process of tromping in and out of the house in the cold rain trying to get that section of pipe threaded back on both ends, I managed to twist almost every piece of pipe loose and/or apart.

Did I mention that it was getting dark (days were short- on the other side of winter solstice) and it was cold?  and windy?  and beginning to rain?  and I had an 80 lbs. Labbie demanding that I throw a stick for him every time I bent over to retrieve a piece of pipe? 

After several tries I called my husband at work and asked if he could come home early to help me.  No dice.  He was on call and couldn't leave the office. 

I almost cried.  And I'm not a crier.

I made myself sloooow doooown and take it piece by piece... and that's when it seemed to me that two pieces of vent pipe were simply refusing to fit together properly anymore.  It seemed like they should have slid together with the notches aligned, and then twisted to lock, but even with the notches properly aligned *I could not get them to fit.*  I believe I started tugging on Mike Holton's ear right about then- WTH DOOD WHY WON'T THESE PIECES OF VENT PIPE FIT BACK TOGETHER? 

I wondered if somehow they'd gotten heat warped out of shape.

So here I am with the stove's vent pipe in pieces, I need another set of hands outside to hold one end of pipe in place while someone inside tries to fit the pieces back together, The Hubs cannot come home, the Labbie has no thumbs and the cat is no help at all in these situations.  If the stove isn't on and it's cold in the house, he's not speaking to me. 

I was so frustrated I almost cried again.

And then I tried to find vent pipe- because I had myself convinced that somehow this vent pipe was warped out of shape and it was never, ever going back together. 

Also, did I mention that the cat was NOT helpful?

That's when I found out that Big Box Stores?  They carry 3" Duravent pipe but not 4" Duravent pipe and of course, we have 4" Duravent pipe.

And our regular stove store was closed for the holiday!  It wasn't exactly the holiday yet, but they were already closed!   And would remain closed!  Until that holiday was good and over! 

So yeah, by the time I talked to The Nice Person at the next stove shop, I WAS DONE STICK A FORK IN ME.  And quite nearly in tears.  So even though I wanted to fix my stove myself, I just wanted to get my hands on some blessed 4" Duravent pipe if I could, and I didn't want to wait several days through a real cold snap to do that if I could help it.  I can come get the pipe.  I can put in together myself.  Eventually The Hubs will be home to help me.  Or the Labbie will grow thumbs.  Or the cat will get tired of being cold and he will pitch in.  But you don't have to come to my house.  JUST SELL ME THE #*%#&@#$( PIPE.

After I spoke with that shop and determined that I *could* get 4" pipe if necessary, I took one more whack at it. 

Turns out that these pieces of pipe- I don't know if they are "warped" or not, but they don't automatically fit together at every notch.  I think that they have sort of molded themselves into a particular shape- and not every set of notches fits together.  You have to put them back exactly like they came apart, and that means trying to fit the notches together at various places.

Long story short, I finally did get the vent pipe back together, and The Hubs arrived home, and checked the deflector piece outside to make sure it was secure while I kept an eye and hands on the pieces inside to make sure they didn't turn again. 

But I'm absolutely, positively *sure* that I was That Guy on the phone to the stove shop that day... That Guy, Nearly in Tears.

Sorry, Stove Shop. =(


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## Lake Girl (Jan 22, 2014)

He just needed to vent to someone - expanding a business venture can be painful.  Put your head down and keep on slogging through the mire


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## boomhour (Jan 22, 2014)

I agree there were previous problems with Dell-Point and Europa 75 as there were definitely issues there and I feel for the people that own them.   When the temperature drops to -35 as it is right now outside my door, there are definite concerns over the longevity of these stoves.  Also, their website could use an update as I don't find it very user-friendly.  After a lot of research, this is the stove that we decided to purchase.  We are still in the "honeymoon stage" and have not had to replace anything yet, so have not had to "cross that bridge" of trying to buy parts or service for this stove.  We are very happy that we do not burn wood at $90 dollars a face cord - things had to change, We now have a consistently even heat - no more getting up at 4 a.m. to load the wood stove or take out hot coals just to get more wood to fit.  Your rants in your original posts are more than true to life and it is what helped persuade me to purchase this stove.  I needed something that just plain works with green technology - not just pellets but electricity and being able to burn an alternative fuel source if the problems of supply reappear.

As far as owning a business, I had to deal with a major snowstorm on Christmas morning.  I dealt with people that had major hills in their driveways first and left the ones with flat driveways last.  I still managed to get a phone call as to why wasn't my driveway plowed first. I'll let you figure out how many degrees her driveway was.  Later that winter, her husband apologized for her rant so, I can relate to your rant as to the question of why doesn't my stove work?  Some are true to heart and others are just plain duh. As far as Wisconsin and most of the northern states to the west, including Lake Girl, do you really know what -40 and wind chills into the -50's is really like to be left with no heat because your pellet stove puked a fan or the electricity failed and you had to turn on your auxiliary heat?   We had four major power spikes within half an hour with full interruptions.  To protect the stove, I pulled the plug and ran on battery backup all night.  I did not think twice about doing it as it has happened before while we were asleep and did not realize it until morning. I was glad I played it safe. I too am not feeling the love.  And now I will get off my soapbox and return you to your regularly scheduled programming.


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## Lake Girl (Jan 22, 2014)

Yes I do know what -40 with windchills of -50 are like.  We had a 5 hour power outage with temps near -40 between Christmas and New Year's.  Power crew figured the temp was the reason for line failure.  Power interruptions are frequent here compared to most individuals because we have the distinction of being the longest run in Ontario.  With electricity failure, there is no backup heat unless you have a wood stove or a generator.


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## boomhour (Jan 22, 2014)

I may make -40 yet


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## PassionForFire&Water (Jan 22, 2014)

boomhour said:


> Au contraire, I beg to differ.  The Paromax line of pellet stoves, with the ash management system, and the Italian-made stoves, are what the new EPA ratings about to come online are all about.  With gasification, these stoves are what other companies may have to look to, to comply with the new stove ratings down the road.  Uncle Sam may not tell you that your stove is old-school, but your insurance company has the higher power, I believe.



Exceptions proof the rule. There probably are some pellet stoves I'm not aware of.
But by reading in the "pellet mill" time to time I'm sure there aren't many.

Not impressed with Italian pellet stove technology in general, au contraire ... .
The Verona-Italy show is coming up mid February, lets see what they came up with, besides "sexy" looking pellet stove models.
High end Italian cars, sure I take it .... pellet stoves I probably pass.
Italy is the land of fashion, not pellet stove in my humble opinion.


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## PassionForFire&Water (Jan 22, 2014)

Stevekng said:


> You sell pellet furnaces and heaters but do you own one? You have an interesting attitude for someone who sells pellet devices.



The last 5 years I had several hydronic pellet stoves in my shop. The hydronic part does make no difference in for the combustion concept.

They all "waste" to much fuel - wood pellets. Burn 2 bags of pellets and remove 1/4 bag of ashes next morning. Firepot full of clinckers.

The technology needs to be improved:
- automatic cleaning of fire pot
- combustion control via flame temperature sensor.

My general attitude about 95% (or probably more) of the pellet stoves out there: they are wood pellet guzzlers!
Just like our car industry: why it takes 20-30 years to make more efficient cars (MPG) ?

I hate to waste any energy resource, and wood pellets is a resource.

Look at the wood stoves, it took 20+ years and a Wood Stove Decathlon to come up with real clean burning and efficient wood stoves.

FYI: I have natural gas and an hydronic fireplace.
Even a top notch pellet boiler is difficult to justify when you have NG.


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## Stevekng (Jan 22, 2014)

PassionForFire&Water said:


> My general attitude about 95% (or probably more) of the pellet stoves out there: they are wood pellet guzzlers!
> Just like our car industry: why it takes 20-30 years to make more efficient cars (MPG) ?
> 
> I hate to waste any energy resource, and wood pellets is a resource.
> ...



And yet you sell these units you call wasteful. Do you let your customers know about attitude? I can't imagine that you would sell very many units if you do. The dealer I bought my Castile from had the same attitude that you have but stopped selling them or servicing them, rather than conflicting himself. I respect him for that. But I bet there are people who miss his service; it was top notch. My Castile is 5 years old and has yet to need service or parts. His install was class A+.


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## PassionForFire&Water (Jan 22, 2014)

Stevekng said:


> And yet you sell these units you call wasteful. Do you let your customers know about attitude? I can't imagine that you would sell very many units if you do. The dealer I bought my Castile from had the same attitude that you have but stopped selling them or servicing them, rather than conflicting himself. I respect him for that. But I bet there are people who miss his service; it was top notch. My Castile is 5 years old and has yet to need service or parts. His install was class A+.



Thanks for pointing this out !
I indeed need to update our website, and take the Italian made decorative hydronic pellet boiler "off-line".
We only sell Windhager BioWIN pellet boilers


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## Stevekng (Jan 22, 2014)

PassionForFire&Water said:


> Thanks for pointing this out !
> I indeed need to update our website, and take the Italian made decorative hydronic pellet boiler "off-line".
> We only sell Windhager BioWIN pellet boilers


I think your posting signature needs updating too.


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## Mt Bob (Jan 22, 2014)

"Burn 2 bags of pellets and remove 1/4 bag ashes?" Guess I have been doing something wrong all these years or he has never seen an austroflamm.


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## MCPO (Jan 22, 2014)

becasunshine said:


> After using a Napoleon pellet stove every season since installation in September 2008, and finally getting this 1959 brick/block bungalow sealed up adequately and with enough attic insulation, I can tell you for certain that the pellet stove heats this house a lot more quietly - and, in some particular ways, a lot more evenly- than my modern natural gas furnace.
> 
> Our pellet stove is located in a corner at one end of the house.  The gas furnace is in a corner at the other end.   The HVAC thermostat is in between the two, in a hallway in the center of the house.
> 
> ...


It`s not that your pellet stove is so particularly quiet , even heating, and safe, it`s your central heating system that is so sub par.


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## PassionForFire&Water (Jan 22, 2014)

Hey Scott, sorry for de-railing your topic.
It obviously will take some more serious long-term education.


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## MCPO (Jan 22, 2014)

boomhour said:


> Au contraire, I beg to differ.  The Paromax line of pellet stoves, with the ash management system, and the Italian-made stoves, are what the new EPA ratings about to come online are all about.  With gasification, these stoves are what other companies may have to look to, to comply with the new stove ratings down the road.  Uncle Sam may not tell you that your stove is old-school, but your insurance company has the higher power, I believe.


I love the concept of the Paromax system and I truly believe this is the coming tech in all pellet stoves . But, from what I have read the Paromax reliability and service is a nightmare.
 I suppose when it is embraced and employed by a better known pellet stove maker with reliable service and with available parts , it will take hold .


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## IHATEPROPANE (Jan 22, 2014)

smwilliamson said:


> Problem being is that I DID hire someone who actually does a very good job, perhaps too good.
> 
> I was talking to Mike Holton from the boards here (Englander) and I was talking about phone systems and that how every monday in Oct. we get like 300 calls. I was thinking that we may need to go for a calling service just to get rid of the voice mail and actually have people pick up the phone...problem as he stated..."whatever you do you have to have enough run way to take off!" I guess they went that route for awhile and the problem was that the phone service was too good at what they do. Every call got answered, problem was there wasn't enough time in the week to answer one day's worth of calls....the balance I need to find with the office is just because you can answer the phone everytime it rings still doesn't mean I have all the answers when it rings...aye aye aye. And it's not the number of calls or answers that really gets to me...it's the attitude of many who do call and have an attitide like because their stove is broken that somehow I'm the bad guy cause I haven't got there to fix it yet. I'll figure it out, spring will come soon. I will breathe again, see my wife and kids again, dream and such...



Sorry to say this but you brought this all on yourself.  You chose to be in this business, chose to expand within this business and knew before hand that these are the people you will be dealing with day in and day out.

This is the life of the majority of small business owners,  ridiculous hours,  no time for family or vacation.  Eventually as you grow things will get better for you, but the people you service and their attitudes will not change.  I wouldn't last a second dealing with them.

Perhaps you can reflect on the customers that really appreciate all your efforts and that will help you power through the tough times.


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## tjnamtiw (Jan 22, 2014)

smwilliamson said:


> My emoticon lacked any expression and slightly aggrivated. I'm tired. Some of you who may have their own biz...or any teacher with 23 kids can relate....how many questions can you field in a day, in an hour, in a minute, in a second...and every day, every hour ,every minute, every second its the same one over and over and over again. My pellet stove is doing this, or doing that or not doing this but it never did that and why is doing this or that but not this.....I go home everyday completely exhausted. Seriously man....what's wrong with people....? THEY ARE SPACE HEATERS not MIRACLE WORKERS and they ain't the answer to not using the TSTAT. "I aint got no other heat", "Everyday you can't get here is one more day I'm spending money I shouldn't be" Seriously, this is what I deal with every day times 200.
> 
> I'm failing the entire world and industry because I stayed home an extra 15 minutes to put my kid on the buss or go home early to plow the driveway so my wife could get out and go grocery shopping. Yes, I'm talking about you the guy who's 26 year old stove you bought on CL for $350 that stopped working this afternoon and it's going to be minus 200 degrees tonight and your kids are sleeping at you mothers because I'm the jerk.
> 
> Thanks guys! I feel better now!


PERFECT reply!  LOVE IT!  We who try to help out those who come here asking the same questions over and over rather than take a minute to SEARCH for the answer, which is there!  I can only imagine what service and sales people go through!  I don't care what anyone says > they ARE space heaters in the true sense of the word, not the twisted 'my house is my space' sense.  Anyone who relies solely on them for heat AND has no clue how to clean and repair them is crazy.  IMHO of course!  Good job.


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## EastMtn (Jan 22, 2014)

To help with your rant Scott the problems don't end with the pellet stove industry.  I work rotating 24hr shifts, and my customers are big companies and small city governments with sensitive electronic equipment who expect me to tell them before lightning strikes their area so they can be prepared. These entities ask the same questions that small business patrons ask.  Working In Southern California as a lineman we had the $300K club. These were people who spent multiple days working without sleep on a regular basis.  My wife doesn't see me sometimes for up to 6 days.

I echo what Lakegirl said. You are obviously doing a great job.  Put your head down and keep moving forward, evaluate the efficiency of your business, and make changes where appropriate. Like P38X2 said raise your prices and say no more often. You can only do what you can do. *Think of it as people trusting your expertise, diligence, and follow through so much that they flock to be your next customer*. The wife and kids know what you are sacrificing to provide for their household.  This is one of the consequences of success and will in time be balanced out.

All of you servicers out there are doing a great job.  We as customers reward your service by lining your pockets with money and hopefully thank you's. Oh.... and we'll try not to call anymore when our stove won't heat because we didn't seat the plug fully in the unit.


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## becasunshine (Jan 22, 2014)

MCPO said:


> It`s not that your pellet stove is so particularly quiet , even heating, and safe, it`s your central heating system that is so sub par.



I'm not an HVAC expert, but the furnace is a fairly modern, typical brand name gas furnace, and the ductwork is OK too.  The thermostat is almost brand new and gives us a lot of flexibility, i.e. we can program it to turn on the heating/cooling plant at a specific temperature differential, and of course we can program it for temperature/times, etc.

The difference, IMHO, is that the furnace and the air handler reside in the conditioned living space with us.  Noise is more of a factor if the furnace is sitting beside you in the house.

In our previous house, the gas furnaces were located in the attached garage and in the attic.  I don't know why this furnace was installed in the laundry room instead of in the attic, but I'm pretty sure it sits on the footprint of the original unit.  The attic holds duct work from the air handler and otherwise, I'm not sure why the furnace isn't up there.

Also, this house has brick/block/lathe/plaster walls with no insulation inside them.  When it's very cold outside, we have conductive cold from the actual walls.  I think this accentuates the whole "blast the heat/let it cool/blast it again" cycle from the furnace and the thermostat.

Keeping the walls continuously warm(ish) seems to work better.

As I said, YMMV.

Also, sorry for de-railing the thread as well.  Back to the Original Thread, Already in Progress.


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## ChandlerR (Jan 22, 2014)

This is an interesting thread.  As much as I love the cost savings with the pellet stove and the warmth it give us in (so far) all conditions, I just can't recommend them for everyone.  A good friend of ours is buying a nice 200 year old house with  two fireplaces. The house has been insulated with new windows and has a brand new oil fired forced hot air heat.  She has been to our house many times and just marvels at how warm our house is.  I told her this year I will approach two tons because of the cold and when we told her that our heating costs will be under $600 she is all excited to install a pellet stove in her house.
The other night we spent an hour with her explaining the ins and outs of stove ownership and she was amazed at the amount of work to properly operate and care for a stove.  She said she used to heat with wood and had no problems and I told her that a pellet stove is more work. Maybe not as hard, but more frequent. She asked if there was such a thing as a maintenance free stove and we told her no.  I think that until one is made that is as maintenance free as your gas or oil furnace, they will remain what they are, a space heater that requires constant attention.
I told her that if she bought one, she needs to buy from a reputable dealer who knows the product and can service it properly. I think the industry is improving every year and their popularity will continue to grow. Good dealers and service people will be rewarded and poor ones will go by the wayside. I wish I knew the answer to those constant frustrating calls. I would not want to be on the receiving end of them all day, every day. The only answer I can think of costs a lot of money...a well trained and personable service tech to answer the phones...oh, with the patience of a saint and a presence of Paul Harvey.

Maybe that could be a new cottage industry. A company the stove guys could hire to answer calls and provide good, sound assistance.....or they can just join this Forum!


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## Ctcarl (Jan 22, 2014)

Wow lots if good reads here. I just wanted to add that I bought this house 5 years ago . Split level 1800sq ft. When I first moved in I was going through 200 gallons a months of oil.it was so crazy I payed my oil guy to look at my furnace to see if it was running correctly. It was so for the first few years was keeping it low getting in fights with the wife over how cold it was.with my first pellet stove it was used kept breaking down and didn't give great heat. Now with my harman I am able to keep going and keep my thermostat at 56 and it reads 64 to 67.Also the living room and two upstairs are nice and toasty. Yes there are Cold spots and one big room that I keep the door closed all winter that's a ice box . So knock on wood this winter I may make it with only getting 150 gallons. If it goes that way that's a huge savings compared to 200 gallons a month.also I feel for the rant earlier.


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## Lake Girl (Jan 22, 2014)

PassionForFire&Water said:


> Burn 2 bags of pellets and remove 1/4 bag of ashes next morning. Firepot full of clinckers.
> 
> The technology needs to be improved:
> - automatic cleaning of fire pot
> ...



You should be selling NG appliances  ....  But what about the rest of us who have only electric or oil options?  Pellet stoves/boilers fill that niche and keeps your business going.   The technology won't be improved if there is no demand in the first place...  Have to start somewhere

2 bags of pellets = 1/4 bag of ashes ... Hello Pinocchio...

At least with pellets, they are from a renewable resource.  Fracking to get natural gas stores ... at what environmental cost (huge water table implications in both the process and the local aquifer due to chemical additives) and what happens when they are depleted?

Just my thoughts...


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## joescho (Jan 22, 2014)

smwilliamson said:


> yeah, your gas-a-ma-blender stove is still a stove that most people cannot wrap their minds around how to use properly so the efficiency that thing is capable of diminishes by 30% or more pretty quick. I saw that stove when it was Dell-Point and when it was the Europa 75. No big changes...most of the people who have them have absolutely no idea cause it came with their house when the bought it...no parts for it. No service for it. Claude cannot even figure out a way to accept PayPal without it taking 15 phone calls and 3 weeks of back and forth....just sayin.
> 
> oh, and those Italian jobbers...most of them are made in China, imported to Italy then marked up huge to sell to us. Seriously though...in this thread, I may just say something bad about every single manufacturer. Thread of the pissed off reviews! Anyone care to have me rant some more?


 
Dude you sound like a man that needs a little vacation.


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## Bioburner (Jan 22, 2014)

Back here in MN its called shack nuts.  Don't know how those in far darker colder climates can take it. Contemplating the last demise of an AES Countryside. Should I get a permit or not?


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## pelletdude (Jan 22, 2014)

Lake Girl said:


> You should be selling NG appliances  ....  But what about the rest of us who have only electric or oil options?  Pellet stoves/boilers fill that niche and keeps your business going.   The technology won't be improved if there is no demand in the first place...  Have to start somewhere
> 
> 2 bags of pellets = 1/4 bag of ashes ... Hello Pinocchio...
> 
> ...


Must be some really poor pellets if you get a 1/4 of a bag of ash. Two bags of good fuel and I get 16OZ's ...


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## Lake Girl (Jan 22, 2014)

pelletdude said:


> Must be some really poor pellets if you get a 1/4 of a bag of ash. Two bags of good fuel and I get 16OZ's ...



The "Hello Pinocchio" was my way of pointing out PassionforFire&Water's mistruth - no way do I get 1/4 bag ash from two bags.  Not even sure I get 16oz


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## St_Earl (Jan 22, 2014)

i wonder how many btus are in a little wooden boy.


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## railfanron (Jan 22, 2014)

Heck a quarter bag of ashes is real close to a ton of pellets in my stove. My ash box is about 9" x 12" x 12" deep and it has about an inch of ash in it for 8 bags of pellets. This is about the same for the 4 different kinds of pellets I've tried this year.
Ron


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## rona (Jan 22, 2014)

tjnamtiw said:


> Bixby's do that but unfortunately the owner screwed everyone but himself!


As the owner of a home heated by Bixbys  I can say they were thinking out of the box when they were designed. Way ahead of the herd and of course the price showed that.  Personally I would never pay 4,000.00 for a stove but when I could get one for 1700 on E-Bay I bought one and basically through trial and error, reading the manual I learned how they work and why people spent that 4,000.00 for one.
  There is upkeep to any stove  and things wear out on all of them but it should be the owners responsibility to learn everything they can so they can fix it themselves. If you can find a good dealer who will help you after the sale you will be a step up from a lot of people. Sad to say once the money changes hands there seems to be a change in personality's.
  There is also dealer burnout where the dealer has had to listen to one to many dumb people who should have bought a electric heater.
   Anyone who thinks having the EPA stick their nose in pellet stoves will turn out good  should look at the Health Care fiasco.  Or look at the cars on the road today bragging about over 30mpg. Little beer cans on wheels. at 25-30,000.00.


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## tjnamtiw (Jan 22, 2014)

rona said:


> As the owner of a home heated by Bixbys  I can say they were thinking out of the box when they were designed. Way ahead of the herd and of course the price showed that.  Personally I would never pay 4,000.00 for a stove but when I could get one for 1700 on E-Bay I bought one and basically through trial and error, reading the manual I learned how they work and why people spent that 4,000.00 for one.
> There is upkeep to any stove  and things wear out on all of them but it should be the owners responsibility to learn everything they can so they can fix it themselves. If you can find a good dealer who will help you after the sale you will be a step up from a lot of people. Sad to say once the money changes hands there seems to be a change in personality's.
> There is also dealer burnout where the dealer has had to listen to one to many dumb people who should have bought a electric heater.
> Anyone who thinks having the EPA stick their nose in pellet stoves will turn out good  should look at the Health Care fiasco. AMEN. Even if you're lucky enought o get a subsidy because you are poor, how are you going to afford the $6000 deductible before you get anything back??? Who dreamed this one up??? Or look at the cars on the road today bragging about over 30mpg AMEN!. Little beer cans on wheels. at 25-30,000.00 and much more!!.


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## becasunshine (Jan 22, 2014)

You know, this just occurred to me- in our area, at least, winter arrived early and deepened quickly and remarkably.  It occurs to me that people are being stressed with heating needs more so than we've been for several years, perhaps even for a few decades.  We had a remarkable cold snap at the end of winter a few years ago- but it was at the end of February and in March, so by default it was self-limiting.

Winter began here in November and it's been normal winter to very cold winter.  It's showing no sign of letting up.

Perhaps people really are backed into a corner with both heating needs and heating costs.  Perhaps they are using their pellet stoves more regularly, thus revealing issues with pellet stoves that previously sat idle or infrequently used.  Perhaps they really cannot afford another oil fill, or another propane fill, and going without the pellet stove is putting them in a panic.  Panic comes out as anger and/or frustration at whomever is standing in front of them, or at the person that they perceive could get them out of this jam.

In the meantime, pellet stoves are a niche market, and there are even fewer people who know how to troubleshoot them, work on them, or carry the replacement parts for them- and those people are apparently getting worn out by our current winter as well.


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## john193 (Jan 22, 2014)

Reading through the comments I'm a bit surprised in the number of people who have expressed a lack of support from their dealers or service technicians.  This has not been my story at all.  My dealer is a 30 min ride from me, they stock all the common parts and will even ship them to your house (within reason).  

Last year the auto clean arm on my MVAE got stuck and I couldn't get the thing to close the pot so we had to rely on our other sources of heat.  As these things go, it occurred on the coldest day on a Sunday.  I called the dealer and someone was at my house within 36 hours to look into the problem.  In the interim, the service tech walked me through how to disconnect the arm and manually close the burn pot to start a fire.  Being under warranty, the service call was free of charge (which may not seem like a big deal to some, but remember the manufacturer guarantees the stove, not the dealers time).    

This is precisely why veteran stove owners here will tell you it is all about the dealer.  Most of the conversation here is what stove should I get, or what pellet I should burn.  It seems so few people vet their dealers, or think about the after sale process.


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## hockeypuck (Jan 22, 2014)

I would not recommend anyone owning a pellet stove that could not do their own  basic maintenance and stack cleaning.  If I had to pay someone to come out and clean by stove and chimney every time it needed it... it would not make sense.  Just saying... no offense to Scott.  What I would do is call Scott if I tried for a number of days to diagnose a problem and could not figure it out.


Quick edit.. what Chandler said... x2.. they are not for everyone.


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## hockeypuck (Jan 22, 2014)

becasunshine said:


> You know, this just occurred to me- in our area, at least, winter arrived early and deepened quickly and remarkably.  It occurs to me that people are being stressed with heating needs more so than we've been for several years, perhaps even for a few decades.  We had a remarkable cold snap at the end of winter a few years ago- but it was at the end of February and in March, so by default it was self-limiting.
> 
> Winter began here in November and it's been normal winter to very cold winter.  It's showing no sign of letting up.
> 
> ...



Concerning being stressed.. I totally agree.  When I had my Lennox act up on me earlier this year.. the first thing I thought about was how much money I was going to spend on oil.. Short term .. it was silly because I heat with my wood insert 70 percent of the main part of the house and the smaller portion (on its own FHW zone) that was heated by the pellet stove.   Even on the coldest of cold nights it may have cost me $6 per day to keep it warm enough so we could function in that part of the house.   I eventually fixed the Lennox but used it as an excuse to upgrade.  I can only imagine if I viewed a pellet stove as my main reason for not being warm or blowing the budget on oil.  Sometimes the fear is irrational (short term) but due to the less than stellar economy that we are all resetting to, heating expense is now becoming a major portion of our disposable income and weighs more heavily on the general population.. imho.


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## Mt Bob (Jan 22, 2014)

smwilliamson said:


> My emoticon lacked any expression and slightly aggrivated. I'm tired. Some of you who may have their own biz...or any teacher with 23 kids can relate....how many questions can you field in a day, in an hour, in a minute, in a second...and every day, every hour ,every minute, every second its the same one over and over and over again. My pellet stove is doing this, or doing that or not doing this but it never did that and why is doing this or that but not this.....I go home everyday completely exhausted. Seriously man....what's wrong with people....? THEY ARE SPACE HEATERS not MIRACLE WORKERS and they ain't the answer to not using the TSTAT. "I aint got no other heat", "Everyday you can't get here is one more day I'm spending money I shouldn't be" Seriously, this is what I deal with every day times 200.
> 
> I'm failing the entire world and industry because I stayed home an extra 15 minutes to put my kid on the buss or go home early to plow the driveway so my wife could get out and go grocery shopping. Yes, I'm talking about you the guy who's 26 year old stove you bought on CL for $350 that stopped working this afternoon and it's going to be minus 200 degrees tonight and your kids are sleeping at you mothers because I'm the jerk.
> 
> Thanks guys! I feel better now!


 Hang in there,Scott.I was thinking about starting a part time stove repair setup,but after what I see on this forum I might just go to the local stove shop and see if they need a part time person!


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## Lake Girl (Jan 22, 2014)

There you go ... as long as you're OK with being potentially laid off for the summer?


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## Bioburner (Jan 22, 2014)

Back here in MN its called shack nuts.  Don't know how those in far darker colder climates can take it. Contemplating the last demise of an AES Countryside. Should I get a permit or not?


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## Mt Bob (Jan 22, 2014)

Well I am a master ase auto and truck tech. and older.In this part of the state all us older mechanics have been laid off/let go,so they do not have to pay as much.Right now I stock beer for a living.Got a good offer to go to the bakken this summer,but do not want to go as I own my house,so looking for other options.


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## heat seeker (Jan 22, 2014)

Bioburner said:


> Back here in MN its called shack nuts.  Don't know how those in far darker colder climates can take it.



Around here it's called Cabin Fever - and I have it already!


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## chken (Jan 22, 2014)

Lake Girl said:


> The "Hello Pinocchio" was my way of pointing out PassionforFire&Water's mistruth - no way do I get 1/4 bag ash from two bags.  Not even sure I get 16oz


I took it in reference to the hydronic pellet stoves. Maybe I'm giving him too much credit?

Anyhow, his is an interesting opinion since he sells Windhager BioWin pellet boilers that are highly automated, like the Kedels and Okefens. They are as close to a pellet appliance as I've read about. Isn't that where this discussion was headed? A lower maintenance appliance-like device that would then become mass-adopted?


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## smwilliamson (Jan 23, 2014)

chken said:


> I took it in reference to the hydronic pellet stoves. Maybe I'm giving him too much credit?
> 
> Anyhow, his is an interesting opinion since he sells Windhager BioWin pellet boilers that are highly automated, like the Kedels and Okefens. They are as close to a pellet appliance as I've read about. Isn't that where this discussion was headed? A lower maintenance appliance-like device that would then become mass-adopted?


Yeas, I think that's where he was going. Mark is a good friend of mine. I have one of his BioWIN untis in my shop. Pellet stoves and inserts are NOT considered primary heating systems nor should they ever be. Many rely on them as such and thats where the problem lies and part of my frustration with people sometimes. iGet it. I kinda need that mentality so there are enough appliances out there to work on...over time, the adoption of these boilers will become more mainstream. Heck, wouldn't you like to fill your hopper 3 times a year and emply your ash bin 3 times....AND THATS IT.

IF you are heating your house with 2 or more high end pellet stoves, you have already spent more money on equipment than a boiler such as the BioWIN would cost.


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## smwilliamson (Jan 23, 2014)

rona said:


> As the owner of a home heated by Bixbys  I can say they were thinking out of the box when they were designed. Way ahead of the herd and of course the price showed that.  Personally I would never pay 4,000.00 for a stove but when I could get one for 1700 on E-Bay I bought one and basically through trial and error, reading the manual I learned how they work and why people spent that 4,000.00 for one.
> There is upkeep to any stove  and things wear out on all of them but it should be the owners responsibility to learn everything they can so they can fix it themselves. If you can find a good dealer who will help you after the sale you will be a step up from a lot of people. Sad to say once the money changes hands there seems to be a change in personality's.
> There is also dealer burnout where the dealer has had to listen to one to many dumb people who should have bought a electric heater.
> Anyone who thinks having the EPA stick their nose in pellet stoves will turn out good  should look at the Health Care fiasco.  Or look at the cars on the road today bragging about over 30mpg. Little beer cans on wheels. at 25-30,000.00.


I wonder what his sleep number is? (he invented the sleep number bed too)


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## smwilliamson (Jan 23, 2014)

Stevekng said:


> I think your posting signature needs updating too.


Easy on Mark...he's foreign, it's in his nature to be misunderstood.


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## PassionForFire&Water (Jan 23, 2014)

smwilliamson said:


> Easy on Mark...he's foreign, it's in his nature to be misunderstood.


Those dam Aliens ...


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## PassionForFire&Water (Jan 23, 2014)

smwilliamson said:


> IF you are heating your house with 2 or more high end pellet stoves, you have already spent more money on equipment than a boiler such as the BioWIN would cost.



Good catch. I know from where that one is coming

Keep up the good work!


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## ironpony (Jan 23, 2014)

if you know you are going to heat with pellets and design and build the home accordingly you can heat 4600 square feet with a Harman Invincible RS.
I do.


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## Stevekng (Jan 23, 2014)

smwilliamson said:


> Easy on Mark...he's foreign, it's in his nature to be misunderstood.


I guess I'm just one of those cranky yankees (not a baseball yankee) that you hear about.


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## Stevekng (Jan 23, 2014)

smwilliamson said:


> IF you are heating your house with 2 or more high end pellet stoves, you have already spent more money on equipment than a boiler such as the BioWIN would cost.



Unless you don't have a hot water heating system. I have a FHA system along with what you guys call wasteful pellet stoves. If I decided to install a pellet boiler, I'm pretty sure the cost would be equal to a nice trip for my wife and I to Hawaii; drinks and beach time included.


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## moey (Jan 23, 2014)

One of the problems I found when I looked at pellet boilers is for the cost I could get a ground source heat pump and not have to worry about the headaches of dealing with cleaning the beast and feeding it. I also got A/C which its hard to make a boiler cool your house.


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## chken (Jan 23, 2014)

smwilliamson said:


> Yeas, I think that's where he was going. Mark is a good friend of mine. I have one of his BioWIN untis in my shop. Pellet stoves and inserts are NOT considered primary heating systems nor should they ever be. Many rely on them as such and thats where the problem lies and part of my frustration with people sometimes. iGet it. I kinda need that mentality so there are enough appliances out there to work on...over time, the adoption of these boilers will become more mainstream. Heck, wouldn't you like to fill your hopper 3 times a year and emply your ash bin 3 times....AND THATS IT.
> 
> IF you are heating your house with 2 or more high end pellet stoves, you have already spent more money on equipment than a boiler such as the BioWIN would cost.


I wish I had found out more about pellet boilers before I bought my stove this past Fall. I started looking into them a number of years ago, and the only one I could find back then was a MeSYS unit that had a Bosch-like pellet burner that attached to what looked like a Buderus. Actually, I think the burner was called a Janfire or Jasper or something like that. Anyhow, I'd have rather gathered my pennies for a BioWin or Kedel boiler, in hindsight.


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## DBNH22 (Jan 23, 2014)

I have to echo the sentiment of many of the previous posters.  The issue with pellets appliances, whether it be stoves, boilers or furnaces is that most feel that there is too much work and maintenance involved.  But let's not forget that most people would also rather spend thier time sitting on the couch for 4 hours every night killing their brain cells with reality TV and stuffing their pieholes with junk food as they grow more obese and less healthy by the minute.

Yes, owning a pellet heating appliance involves the owner undertaking some level of education regarding the operation and maintenance of that appliance.  But I see that as time well spent.  When you live in your home and spend a great amount time there, when your spouse and children live there with you, when your home is the greatest investment you've made by far........then why on earth would you not want to take the time to obtain some greater level of knowledge about your home and the systems within it?   One would think that it would be nice to have a rudimentary understanding of how your home's heating system works so that if there was ever a situation where you were without heat due to a problem with your heating system that required a very simple solution you'd be capable of resolving the issue by yourself rather than sitting around like a dumb### watching the temperature drop while waiting for someone else to come save your bacon and bill you for it.

Pellet stoves are like many other things in this nation.   They serve a definite purpose but are not a good idea for the masses of willfully ignorant and helpless.

That's my two cents on the matter.


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## briansol (Jan 23, 2014)

Retail sucks.
Service Industry sucks.

Period.   It will always be this way because people suck.  When you deal with people every day, eventually it gets to you.


so, to the topic at hand, the 'attitude towards stoves' should actually be 'attitude towards people'.

the stoves don't yell.  They never complain that you can't get to them.   they just want to be fed and kept clean.  Kinda like a dog.  When's the last timeyour dog was angry with you?  :D


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## Stevekng (Jan 23, 2014)

Dana B said:


> Pellet stoves are like many other things in this nation.   They serve a definite purpose but are not a good idea for the masses of willfully ignorant and helpless.
> 
> That's my two cents on the matter.



WOW! You need to get away from those pellets, man. They're clouding your view of the world. Masses? Whew! I haven't read anything like that since I had a class on Kafka.


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## Bioburner (Jan 23, 2014)

My corner of the couch!


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## DBNH22 (Jan 23, 2014)

Stevekng said:


> WOW! You need to get away from those pellets, man. They're clouding your view of the world. Masses? Whew! I haven't read anything like that since I had a class on Kafka.



I get away from my pellets plenty.  I'm around people much more than I am around pellets and it's that experience of being around people, observing them and interacting with them that led to my previous comment.

There are far too many people in the world today that are:

A.  Stupid and/or ignorant (stupidity and ignorance are two different traits but some people posess a superb ability to combine them)
B. Lazy (either physically and/or intellectually)
C. Greedy and self centered
D.  Some combination of A, B, and C

Briansol hit the nail on the head  when he said "people suck."

I think he may understand what I'm getting at.

Sorry for straying from the OP's topic but it is a topic that lends itself to rampant extrapolation.


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## Ctcarl (Jan 23, 2014)

Am I a weirdo because I actually enjoy cleaning my Harman?i feel like I do after a wrk out like I accomplished something.Why would somebody have a problem tacking care of something that's so good to you and your family.I wrk in the medical field and do see people healthy in there 20 or 30 getting state assistance not wrking.yett they have nice designer bags and nice cars.i guess some of America has gotten lazy and brain Rot from to much tv.Better for us if every body had them pellet prices would be the same to propane.


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## DBNH22 (Jan 23, 2014)

Stevekng said:


> And yet you sell these units you call wasteful. Do you let your customers know about attitude? I can't imagine that you would sell very many units if you do. The dealer I bought my Castile from had the same attitude that you have but stopped selling them or servicing them, rather than conflicting himself. I respect him for that. But I bet there are people who miss his service; it was top notch. My Castile is 5 years old and has yet to need service or parts. His install was class A+.




Steve, I bought a pellet boiler from Marc and he was very honest about the costs of different fuels in our discussions prior to my purchase.  I don't think he's saying they're wasteful at all.  What he is saying is that natural gas is a cheaper way to heat your home than a pellet boiler.  Anyone with an ounce of intitiative can figure this out in two seconds of internet research so why lie about it?  However when compared to oil, electiricity and propane, a high quality pellet boiler is the best choice to provide cost effective heat in your home.  it so happens that many people live in areas where Ng is not avaiable so pellet boilers make sense for them.  There is a market for these people with regard to selling pellet boilers.

A pellet boiler dealer admitting that NG is a better option for people who can go that route is just being honest and I appreciate and respect that honesty in the way that you respect the dealer you're speaking of.


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## Stevekng (Jan 23, 2014)

Dana B said:


> There are far too many people in the world today that are:
> 
> A.  Stupid and/or ignorant (stupidity and ignorance are two different traits but some people posess a superb ability to combine them)
> B. Lazy (either physically and/or intellectually)
> ...



We shall all strive to be more like you and Briansol. It would be for the best.


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## smwilliamson (Jan 24, 2014)




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## DBNH22 (Jan 24, 2014)

Ctcarl said:


> Am I a weirdo because I actually enjoy cleaning my Harman?i feel like I do after a wrk out like I accomplished something.Why would somebody have a problem tacking care of something that's so good to you and your family.I wrk in the medical field and do see people healthy in there 20 or 30 getting state assistance not wrking.yett they have nice designer bags and nice cars.i guess some of America has gotten lazy and brain Rot from to much tv.Better for us if every body had them pellet prices would be the same to propane.



It's a shame that over the decades mainstream American culture has completely lost it's sense of pragmatism and self relaince.  It's been replaced by crass, superficial materialism, levels of self-absorbtion that would cause narcissus to blush and an entitlement mentality which posits that it is entirely reasonable to expect that anything and everything your heart desires should and will come your way without having to make even so much as an ounce of effort as an individual on your own behalf.  We've gone from the Greatest Generation which grinned and beared their way through the Great Depression to trampling one another to death on Black Friday so that we can save fifty dollars on the latest iPhone.  This is progress?

Sorry for the rant but it just makes me so angry sometimes when I realize what kind of world my very young children are going to be forced to live in and every once in a while something, like this post, brings these thoughts to the forefront of my mind.  Stepping down off the sopabox now.


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## tjnamtiw (Jan 24, 2014)

Dana B said:


> It's a shame that over the decades mainstream American culture has completely lost it's sense of pragmatism and self relaince.  It's been replaced by crass, superficial materialism, levels of self-absorbtion that would cause narcissus to blush and an entitlement mentality which posits that it is entirely reasonable to expect that anything and everything your heart desires should and will come your way without having to make even so much as an ounce of effort as an individual on your own behalf.  We've gone from the Greatest Generation which grinned and beared their way through the Great Depression to trampling one another to death on Black Friday so that we can save fifty dollars on the latest iPhone.  This is progress?
> 
> Sorry for the rant but it just makes me so angry sometimes when I realize what kind of world my very young children are going to be forced to live in and every once in a while something, like this post, brings these thoughts to the forefront of my mind.  Stepping down off the sopabox now.


It is so ABSOLUTELY REFRESHING to see posted exactly how I feel as a father and grandfather worrying about my siblings!  We have been driven like cattle towards total destruction as a nation and no one seems to care because they are caught up in their own little bubble of safety and can't or won't recognize the direction we are going.  Thanks, Dana, for posting this ESPECIALLY from the heart of New England, which saw fit in every state there to vote us into oblivion.


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## Delta-T (Jan 24, 2014)

Scott, my secret to weathering the storm is to grab the small bits of comedy when you can. Without a doubt at least a few people who call for assitance each day have no idea what stove they have (mind boggling to me). The most common thing they say is "it's the black one" to which I ask "is it the one with the glass door in the front?" which gets them all excited because clearly I know exactly which one they have..."yes, yes, that's the one!"..too much fun.


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## tjnamtiw (Jan 24, 2014)

Delta-T said:


> Scott, my secret to weathering the storm is to grab the small bits of comedy when you can. Without a doubt at least a few people who call for assitance each day have no idea what stove they have (mind boggling to me). The most common thing they say is "it's the black one" to which I ask "is it the one with the glass door in the front?" which gets them all excited because clearly I know exactly which one they have..."yes, yes, that's the one!"..too much fun.


TOO FUNNY!  But PROBABY true!  I don't know how many times I made house calls as a part time TV repairman to only find the set unplugged AFTER I asked them on the phone if it was plugged in!


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## DBNH22 (Jan 24, 2014)

tjnamtiw said:


> TOO FUNNY!  But PROBABY true!  I don't know how many times I made house calls as a part time TV repairman to only find the set unplugged AFTER I asked them on the phone if it was plugged in!




So what would you end up charging them in a situation like that?


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## chken (Jan 24, 2014)

Dana B said:


> So what would you end up charging them in a situation like that?


Well, as we all know, the black one with the glass door in the front is the most expensive model!


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## MikeNH (Jan 24, 2014)

smwilliamson said:


> My emoticon lacked any expression and slightly aggrivated. I'm tired. Some of you who may have their own biz...or any teacher with 23 kids can relate....how many questions can you field in a day, in an hour, in a minute, in a second...and every day, every hour ,every minute, every second its the same one over and over and over again. My pellet stove is doing this, or doing that or not doing this but it never did that and why is doing this or that but not this.....I go home everyday completely exhausted. Seriously man....what's wrong with people....? THEY ARE SPACE HEATERS not MIRACLE WORKERS and they ain't the answer to not using the TSTAT. "I aint got no other heat", "Everyday you can't get here is one more day I'm spending money I shouldn't be" Seriously, this is what I deal with every day times 200.
> I'm failing the entire world and industry because I stayed home an extra 15 minutes to put my kid on the buss or go home early to plow the driveway so my wife could get out and go grocery shopping. Yes, I'm talking about you the guy who's 26 year old stove you bought on CL for $350 that stopped working this afternoon and it's going to be minus 200 degrees tonight and your kids are sleeping at you mothers because I'm the jerk.
> Thanks guys! I feel better now!



I like this post.  I think from a dealer's point of view, it expresses perfectly what I was considering when I decided to abandon wood and move to pellets - that if I wasn't going to be able to learn the technology and repair my own stove, I wasn't going to bother buying a pellet stove.  I have a great dealer here who is always willing to work with me and teach me how to service my own stoves.  They do this for a reason - this saves us both time and it saves me money.

For those of us in northern climates, smwilliamson also has another great point that I wanted to expand on - if financially possible, we should have two sources of heat.  It's common sense.  For years, wood was primary for me, and oil backup.  Now, pellets are primary and oil is backup.  If my combustion blower dies, I still have heat until I get a new blower.  As for maintenance, I do a hell of a lot less cleaning with my pellet stove than I did with my woodstove, and it's easy.  20 min per week and a good spring cleaning - if I converted my time to dollars, it's nothing compared to how much more I would spend in oil (plus the $150/year the oil company charges to change a nozzle and run a combustion test).  I start my FHA oil furnace once per month and run it for 30 min.  It's the same reason I run my generator once every 3 months under a load.  In New England, or any northern climate, it's common sense to be prepared for winter suckage.

Switching gears - I've seen several posts arguing against the notion that pellet stoves can effectively heat an entire house.  This is an over-generalization.  My pellet stove heats my house, and it does it effectively.  I sized it for my needs.  72 all around the first floor, 68 upstairs...in fact, we've never been warmer in wintertime than we've been since we installed it, and we'll recoup our initial pellet stove investment due to oil savings in May of 2015.


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## tjnamtiw (Jan 24, 2014)

Dana B said:


> So what would you end up charging them in a situation like that?


If they were repeat customers, I just shared a beer with them and had a good laugh.  First timers got charged for 1/2 a visit and I promised not to mention it to any of their friends!!


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## smwilliamson (Jan 25, 2014)

tjnamtiw said:


> TOO FUNNY!  But PROBABY true!  I don't know how many times I made house calls as a part time TV repairman to only find the set unplugged AFTER I asked them on the phone if it was plugged in!


I agree without people the world would be a very gray place


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