# Anyone have a BloomBox................



## WoodMann (Feb 22, 2010)

With an unending interest for renewable/ alternative energy I stumbled onto this with interest and wonder if anyone else heard of knows anything about what's called a bloombox. Evidently ebay, google and fed ex are on the bandwagon and this product seems to hold alot of promise. But for a balanced view, other outfits have something in their pipes, too- but if nothing else this is a strong motivator...........

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6228923n&tag=related;photovideo


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## karri0n (Feb 22, 2010)

I watched the video. He goes on about the fuel cell and its similatiries to a battery, but doesn't then explain exactly what the ng/biogas is used for. I would assume it could probably run on woodgas as well, but I'm really at a loss as to what purpose the fuel serves unless it is to heat the cell itself. Is the fuel cell something equivalent to a super efficient thermocouple? If so, then it's basically a means to generate electricity without moving parts/turbines, but still requires heat. I'd like to see the efficiency measurements in comparison with utilizing the fuel to run a turbine as is done in conventional power plants/generators.


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## Adios Pantalones (Feb 22, 2010)

cost ya like $700-800K right now.  They want to get them to $3000 each.  There's a lot of patented fuel cell tech out there not commercialized.  Reliability and cost are 2 big barriers to getting them into homes.


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## WoodMann (Feb 22, 2010)

Yeah- the claims are pretty big, and he's not letting the whole cat outta the bag, understandably- but I would think something like this to be a real motivator to competitors. Althought I'm a big fan of solar everything I still see a good deal of progress to be made on the photovoltic front, and this might be the kick in the pants to get moving some more. Gonna be exciting what unfolds.............


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## Badfish740 (Feb 22, 2010)

Adios Pantalones said:
			
		

> cost ya like $700-800K right now.  They want to get them to $3000 each.  There's a lot of patented fuel cell tech out there not commercialized.  Reliability and cost are 2 big barriers to getting them into homes.



I saw the same thing last night.  Google, FedEx, Ebay, and others are using giant banks of the things to produce power for major commercial buildings, but at one point the inventor held up a tiny cube (looked like maybe 6" x 6" x 12") and said that it could power the average American home.  It was my impression that the large banks of BloomBoxes were what cost the hundreds of thousands of dollars.  So maybe the cost of the small cube isn't down to $3000-I wonder what it actually does cost?  I'd be interested in signing up for a pilot program!  I figure we spend about $1700 a year on electricity alone-that's taking into account the fact that we've switched over to CFLs completely, we try to be conservative on the AC usage in the summertime, and we're both gone from the house 10+ hours a day.  Even if a BloomBox cost $6000 the ROI for me would be less than 4 years (assuming it continued to work maintenance free all that time)-that's about a quarter of the time it takes to pay back the average solar installation.  



			
				karri0n said:
			
		

> I watched the video. He goes on about the fuel cell and its similatiries to a battery, but doesn't then explain exactly what the ng/biogas is used for. I would assume it could probably run on woodgas as well, but I'm really at a loss as to what purpose the fuel serves unless it is to heat the cell itself. Is the fuel cell something equivalent to a super efficient thermocouple? If so, then it's basically a means to generate electricity without moving parts/turbines, but still requires heat. I'd like to see the efficiency measurements in comparison with utilizing the fuel to run a turbine as is done in conventional power plants/generators.



I was assuming that since all of the gases mentioned were some sort of hydrocarbon that the box is using the gas as a feedstock for hydrogen.  Also, don't fuel cells produce chemically pure water as a result of the hydrogen/oxygen mix?  The idea of a little box that sits in my basement, allowing me to live totally independent of the grid, that produces pure water that I could store is extremely appealing to me.  I'm eager to learn more.


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## karri0n (Feb 22, 2010)

Badfish740 said:
			
		

> I was assuming that since all of the gases mentioned were some sort of hydrocarbon that the box is using the gas as a feedstock for hydrogen.




I'm not sure on that. That would make the most sense, if not for his explanation of how the thing works. 

I went over it again, and it does in fact seem that there is no combustion anywhere in the process. He said the NG/biogas/etc washes over one side of the cube, air washes over the other, and a chemical reaction produces electricity. Aside from the issue of where the excess electrons are then being deposited(which puts a lifespan on the cell), I was taken aback when the interviewer mentioned solar, and he said "we can use solar". 

So I'm to believe that solar energy contains the chemical constituents required to drive the electricity-producing chemical reaction between **some form of fuel** and air?

He never went into whether it generates AC or DC. If it's not turning an alternator at any point in the process, it must be producing DC.

I hope soon we get some better explanation of just how this thing generates electricity.

I'm going to keep up with this as it appears very interesting.


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## Badfish740 (Feb 22, 2010)

karri0n said:
			
		

> I was taken aback when the interviewer mentioned solar, and he said "we can use solar".



It's possible he's referring to using solar to generate hydrogen.  I happen to live about 20 miles from a gentleman who uses a solar array on his property to generate electrical current that is used solely to split water (from a well on the property) into hydrogen and action-a simple process.  The oxygen gasses off to the atmosphere and the hydrogen is stored in tanks on his property.  He has a lot of tanks because the township mandated that he store it at low pressure, so he uses large propane storage tanks just like the ones that most rural dwellers use for home heating.  The hydrogen then feeds a fuel cell which provides power for the entire house.  



			
				karri0n said:
			
		

> He never went into whether it generates AC or DC. If it's not turning an alternator at any point in the process, it must be producing DC.



That's a good point-I suppose it's easy enough to convert, although it's going to add to the cost of the thing of course.  



			
				karri0n said:
			
		

> I'm going to keep up with this as it appears very interesting.



I am too-at least on the surface this thing seems pretty promising.  We've seen all kinds of innovations in the renewable energy game lately, but it's not often that someone promotes a mini power plant for your house.  The potential for very cheap (as compared to running utility lines to a site) off grid remote area living is what I'm most excited about.  Assuming you could make the thing run off of wood gas you could essentially provide all necessary energy to run your home (heat AND electricity) using wood!


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## peakbagger (Feb 22, 2010)

Its a fuel cell, it combines fuel and oxygen chemically to create electric power. Wikapedia has an article explaining fuel cells  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell

There is no combustion of any kind in the unit. The major improvement is that prior fuel cells usually required very expensive catalysts and the membranes were hard to make. If they have come up with a cheap to make membrane with no expensive catalysts, that drops the price down. Most prior fuel cell membranes are very prone to "poisoning" by various impurities in the fuel, if the Bloom design is less affected by contaminants thats an improvement . Wood Gas is pretty complex and had a lot of contaminants so I dont see it being used in a fuel cell for awhile. 

A fuel cell still requires fuel, in this case natural gas. It still generates CO2 and therefore isnt renewable. It is claimed to be more efficient at converting natural gas to electricity than an internal combustion engine so it produces less CO2 per KW generated and that also is a good thing if you need electricity rather than heat. If you want to heat your house, its not a plus. I see a sterling cycle generator being a lot better fit (and a lot less complex) for generating power from wood. 

I will point out that the comparison of solar cells to a fuel cell unit was "apples to oranges", once the solar cells are installed they generate power for 20 plus years with zero fuel and zero carbon emmisions after the initial CO emisions are covered for fabricating the PV panels (typically 18 months of generation). A 100KW unit at $800,000 is roughly on par with solar electric generated power (typical range per installed KW for commercial installation for solar is 7 to 9 dollars per watt or $700,000 to $900,000 for an equivalent PV array with the potential to drop down to 4 to 5 dollars per watt). Granted the Bloom unit takes up a lot less space, but its burning fuel whenever its running. The reason the current users save money with it instead of grid power is that is subsidized by other rate payers. California basically requires the utilities to buy all renewable power generated and pay a premium which is subsidized by the rate payer. As more renewable goes on line, the electric costs for the average rate payer goes up making renewable more attractive. Note that in the long run it starts to resemble a Ponzi scheme. If someone runs the numbers they will find that the natural gas cost starts to be the big cost to run the unit even if the initial cost of the unit drops.     

Fuel cells have traditionally been very difficult to throttle, they want to run steady state, I expect that if they come up with a home version, it will be grid tied so that it can run at one speed and send the power out to the grid. I dont see a home unit being a good standby generator when the grid is down unless the house has a battery bank to provide the steady load.  

The script from the CBS show was very similiar to a story several years ago on Ballard Power Systems about a fuel cell vehicle, plus a big show on how Segways were going to change the world, or Dean Kamens wheelchairs that could stand upright were going to change the world  and a couple of other shows on "the next best thing" that havent happened yet. It makes for great TV, but a lot of "the next best things" dont pan out as quickly and as cheaply as represented.  

More power to Bloom for advancing the state of the art and I expect that they will find a market for the product and plenty of folks who want to buy shares in the company. With the amount of capital they have sunk into it, they have some significant debts to the venture capitalists who funded it up front that they will have to pay off and thats going to keep the equipment price high for several years.


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## WoodMann (Feb 23, 2010)

More than anything it's gonna be cool to see what happens from here...........


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