# OWB vs IWB for new contruction



## NorthernNY (Nov 26, 2019)

Hello everyone, I am looking at building a house within the next 2-3 years and want to heat with radiant heat and use wood as a fuel source. The plan is to heat the house (est 1500 sq ft to start) and an unattached 2 car garage with the system.

So what I am looking for are any recommendations or experiences with OWB and IWB. I have done some preliminary research and understand the difference and some pros and cons between the two.

For OWB I am looking at a gasification  unit and brands like Central Boiler, Heatmaster and Crown Royal. Any other brand experiences would be appreciated. I like the OWB because it keeps everything out of the house, is a fairly simple install and has a large firebox for long burn times.

For IWB I am also looking at a gasification unit and have found brands like Econburn, Froling, any others would be appreciated. Negatives I see with these units are shorter burn times, slightly more complicated install and the large storage capacity required with them.

Questions:
People with IWB how do you like them and how long are your burn times / how frequent are fires required??

Additionally what do you use for storage and how much $$$ do you have in storage tanks??

OWB people, What gasification boilers do you own?? What do you love/hate about them and what kind of burn times are you getting??

I've cut and burned wood pretty much my whole life in traditional wood stoves so i'm familiar with the process and want some personal experiences with these types of systems.


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## 3fordasho (Nov 27, 2019)

I've just installed an IWB in an outbuilding that itself has average wall and ceiling insulation.  My storage tanks were spray foamed about 2", tanks were boxed in with 1.5" foam on back wall and floor, R13 on studded walls around tanks  and R16 on the top.  Every inch of copper to and from boiler and loop to house is insulated.  Even with that the 24 x 48' outbuilding the boiler/storage set up is in was at a comfortable 58F with 30mph north winds this morning and 25F outside.  That is with no heat emitters in that building - just what escapes from storage/piping.   It's been a real eye opener and I would be concerned about those losses with a OWB no matter how well insulated.






So to answer a couple of your questions -  Storage - 2-500 gallon propane tanks.  Sourced from local propane supplier who had scrap tanks for a cost of $200 each.  Scrap tank because of missing tag or rust or some other defect that makes it unusable for propane. 
About 40 hours of my labor to make them suitable for use ( cut 20" square opening in top for cleaning inside,  weld on radiused patch,  2- 1.75" hole sawed holes, weld in additional tank ports- lots of leak checking).

As far as the boiler, it's an Attack DPXL-45 lamda controlled 45kw boiler from newhorizonstore.com - no complaints and would purchase the same unit again.  I've only had the system on line a couple weeks but once I got storage up to temp I can easily do one burn in the evening and a partial load at that (disclaimer -not that cold yet and just because I like to watch a fire in the house I do still burn my wood stove in the evening).   So besides heating the building the boiler is in from standby losses, the loop feeding the house needs to heat 3400 sq ft via a pair of water to air heat exchangers installed in a FA propane furnace.


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## NorthernNY (Nov 27, 2019)

3fordasho said:


> I've just installed an IWB in an outbuilding that itself has average wall and ceiling insulation.  My storage tanks were spray foamed about 2", tanks were boxed in with 1.5" foam on back wall and floor, R13 on studded walls around tanks  and R16 on the top.  Every inch of copper to and from boiler and loop to house is insulated.  Even with that the 24 x 48' outbuilding the boiler/storage set up is in was at a comfortable 58F with 30mph north winds this morning and 25F outside.  That is with no heat emitters in that building - just what escapes from storage/piping.   It's been a real eye opener and I would be concerned about those losses with a OWB no matter how well insulated.
> 
> View attachment 252256
> View attachment 252257


Thanks for the reply, I really like the look of your system and I am also concerned about the heat loss and inefficiencies of a OWB vs keeping the heat in a more usable space. If you don't mind giving some details on your system, what kind and size of boiler are you using?? How much storage do you have and what are you using for storage tanks?? How long do you go between firings when the weather is like today??


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## 3fordasho (Nov 27, 2019)

NorthernNY said:


> Thanks for the reply, I really like the look of your system and I am also concerned about the heat loss and inefficiencies of a OWB vs keeping the heat in a more usable space. If you don't mind giving some details on your system, what kind and size of boiler are you using?? How much storage do you have and what are you using for storage tanks?? How long do you go between firings when the weather is like today??



Attack DPXL-45 boiler, rated 45kw (~153Kbtu)
Storage 2 x 500 gallon propane tanks, horizontal configuration but stacked, 1000 gallon total storage.
Only 2 weeks online so not much data yet as to how often this will need to be fired , so far have not fired more than once per night, maybe 2/3 load, except for initial bringing storage up to temp and that was 2-3 loads.  Boiler has ~6.9 cubic foot firebox.   This boiler has 28-30" deep firebox and all my wood is cut to ~18" so I'm not getting ideal loading in there.


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## Karl_northwind (Nov 27, 2019)

I've been running a heatmaster G-200 for 3 years now, and I like that the mess is outside.  I am heating a 2500 sf well insulated house and a 1400 SF very poorly insulated stone barn.

If the weather is above the single digits, i load wood twice a day, and it's about 1/3 a firebox each time.   when the weather drops below say 5 degrees, it takes nearly a full load twice a day (the barn is kept at 40, so the heat load goes up fast when the temp drops from 20 to 5F) and when it's more than 5 below zero, it's two full loads a day (morning, and bedtime,) plus a third partial load when coming home from work at 5 so there is still a nice coal bed when the 10PM load goes in.    this has been with marginally dry wood, 25% ash and maple, and a little oak.    This year I expect to do much better with dry wood, oak, maple, and ash.

I have been burning about 6 cords of un seasoned wood a year here in central wisconsin, burning thanksgiving to end of march, will be burning longer this year due to the cold snap, but expect to burn about the same since I have seasoned wood here now.  not that we had much of a summer to dry wood out, but it's better than previous years splitting wood in november for the winter. 

I lose some heat from the stove, but the space requirements for an indoor burner were a non-starter, and I sleep better with the fire 100 feet from anything irreplaceable.

I've installed and serviced a lot of indoor and outdoor boilers, and thus far, I think the G-200 has been my best experience with any of them, from a service, maintenance and efficiency standpoint.

Full disclosure: I am a heatmaster dealer.  I think Crown makes an ok gasifier, we'll see how they hold up because they are brand new design, just going into their second season in the field.  I've heard they've had to change a few things, and the EPA listing is still the old model, so the emissions/ efficiency numbers are unknown to most of us.

for as small a space as you're talking about a G-100 would be OK, if you're not going to add a bunch of load.   That's typically a 3 cord a year boiler if it's heating a couple thousand well-insulated square feet.


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## hobbyheater (Nov 27, 2019)

Have been heating with a Jetstream and 1,000 imperial  gallons of storage since the early 80's ,if Garn had been around when I started its a Garn I would of had .




__





						GARN | High-Efficiency Gasification Wood Boiler and Thermal Storage in One Unit
					





					www.garn.com
				



Simple system low maintance and probably one of the most efficient.


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## maple1 (Nov 27, 2019)

Trying to compare burn times, or attaching relevance to them when deciding on a boiler, gets into misleading territory and isn't much use. An indoor gasifier with storage might have a shorter burn time than something else you're comparing to, but it will put a lot more heat into the water for pounds of wood burned.  Burn times might be a decent talking point with wood stoves, but not boilers - extending boiler burn times just usually means choking it down and smoldering and making smoke & creosote.

Check out Varm via Smokeless Heat. Prices on their website. I have one in my basement, wouldn't do it any other way. 660 gallons of storage (2 x 330). Storage cost will depend what you can find locally, mine was around $800-1000. Mid-winter I burn 6-8 hours a day, once a day. That usually consists of build & light a fire, load full after 20 minutes, re-load full 4 hours later. Or thereabouts.


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## NorthernNY (Nov 27, 2019)

hobbyheater said:


> Have been heating with a Jetstream and 1,000 imperial  gallons of storage since the early 80's ,if Garn had been around when I started its a Garn I would of had .
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks for the Garn recommendation I am deff interested in that type of single unit system and type of longevity. Any other Garn users thoughts would be greatly appreciated


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## NorthernNY (Nov 27, 2019)

maple1 said:


> Trying to compare burn times, or attaching relevance to them when deciding on a boiler, gets into misleading territory and isn't much use. An indoor gasifier with storage might have a shorter burn time than something else you're comparing to, but it will put a lot more heat into the water for pounds of wood burned.  Burn times might be a decent talking point with wood stoves, but not boilers - extending boiler burn times just usually means choking it down and smoldering and making smoke & creosote.
> 
> Check out Varm via Smokeless Heat. Prices on their website. I have one in my basement, wouldn't do it any other way. 660 gallons of storage (2 x 330). Storage cost will depend what you can find locally, mine was around $800-1000. Mid-winter I burn 6-8 hours a day, once a day. That usually consists of build & light a fire, load full after 20 minutes, re-load full 4 hours later. Or thereabouts.



I would say at this point I am more concerned with firing times, I want a system I don't need to fire or reload every 4 hours because i can be gone between 8 and 20 hours a day for work. I am becoming more and more interested in the indoor boilers with storage the more I hear from people on this site. I will deff check out Varm.


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## maple1 (Nov 27, 2019)

NorthernNY said:


> I would say at this point I am more concerned with firing times, I want a system I don't need to fire or reload every 4 hours because i can be gone between 8 and 20 hours a day for work. I am becoming more and more interested in the indoor boilers with storage the more I hear from people on this site. I will deff check out Varm.



My schedule above has flexibility. Usual routine is make fire late afternoon, reload 3-4 hours later, fire out or almost out when I'm on my way to bed. If real cold, throw another half or full load in then. The bigger the boiler (more room for more fuel each load) and storage, the more flexibility, generally speaking.

There are also tricks to use in your routine. I also use setbacks (only a couple degrees or so) on some of my zones to extend time between burns. And time things so they set back up when I am lighting my fire. So the heaviest heating load, is when I'm burning. And I usually heat the house or parts of it a bit warmer than usual, when burning - kind of like using the house for some storage too. Sizing your emitters for lower supply temps,  or using lower temp emitters (in floor, or panel or cast iron rads) can also extend your storage and time between burn potential. I have ordinary baseboard, which usually needs higher supply temps, but have concluded it was oversized when designed & installed. Which turned out to be a very good thing. Since that also helps when recovering from a setback.


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## Bad LP (Nov 27, 2019)

I get a kick out of some who are afraid of the boiler inside yet have no problem with a wood stove burning. 

I wouldn't take an outdoor boiler if it was free. I'm not putting my boots and jacket on to trudge out to the boiler 100 feet away in -25weather and the wind blowing. All my heat loss is inside the building envelope and the house was designed to store wood inside a walk out garage. There is a set of double doors from that garage space to the actual basement. Makes it easy to move wood, equipment like saws, cabinets and even my Bridgeport miller was moved into the basement by myself.

If you are building from scratch its easy to make changes on paper now. Think about how YOU intend to like in YOUR house. 

For my detached garage it's roughed in for a LP burner in the 2 bay area and I have some high bay infrared heaters for the big bay. Someday I'll hang the equipment when I got nothing to do. LOL


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## gfirkus (Nov 28, 2019)

Look at the Switzer boiler if you want an all in one unit. Built in Dundee ny.  I have a 1400 gal unit and burn about every 2 days in winter. Below 0deg is once a day. 2009 modular home 1500 sq ft unfinished bsmt. I did the install myself. Gary Switzer can help with design.


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## Medic21 (Nov 28, 2019)

I’m running a Crown Royal conventional.  I like having the ability to burn coal is the only reason I didn’t go with a gasser.  Crown Royal and Heatmaster have the best customer support, hands down.  Central Boiler pretty much is horrible.  

open vs closed system is really what your looking at. If you do an OWB install a propane boiler inside as backup. The G series from Heatmaster I believe is the only UL listed boiler for indoor installation. That said it would have to be an outbuilding because insurance will not allow it in a garage anywhere I have checked.

A G200 from Heatmaster or 7200E from Crown will do what your heating nicely. Set up your indoor system and use a 50 plate exchanger for the OWB and you’ll be set if you ever can’t cut or load wood.

After burning inside for 3 decades Ihave no problem going outside to load.


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## salecker (Nov 28, 2019)

Econoburn makes an outdoor unit.It is basically the same as the indoor unit with more insulation and a metal shed around it.
 I have one which ironically ended up as an indoor unit.I didnt know how long it would take to get my boiler building finished,it was in stock and i got a good deal.
 I personally would never have a fire burning appliance in my home,there is no Fire Department where i live,so having the flame sources out of my house is my fire insurance.
 I have no problem going outside at -40C to go to stoke the fire.It needs to be filled after 3 hour burn,so not a big deal to go outside.All the mess and danger is seperat from my home which is worth the walk.Plus i have a warm workshop 24/7 all winter long to work in.No mess in my home from dirty chainsaws,stinky snowmachines,dusty wood working ect.Plus the fact i never have to worry about carbon monoxide poisoning is worth every cold and miserable walk if there are any.


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## NorthernNY (Nov 28, 2019)

gfirkus said:


> Look at the Switzer boiler if you want an all in one unit. Built in Dundee ny.  I have a 1400 gal unit and burn about every 2 days in winter. Below 0deg is once a day. 2009 modular home 1500 sq ft unfinished bsmt. I did the install myself. Gary Switzer can help with design.



Thanks for the info I have never heard of this brand and am very interested in an all in one unit and local support


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## peakbagger (Nov 29, 2019)

While you are making the choice, keep this in mind, OWBs are restricted or banned in parts of the country as they can become a nuisance to the neighborhood. New York has special regulations in place that homeowners are required to comply with and any one installing and operating an OWB are opening themselves up for future liability when the boiler inevitably smokes out the neighborhood. 


			Requirements for OWB Owners
		


*What conditions constitute a nuisance under Part 247?*
_

Examples of nuisance conditions include:
_

_Activating smoke detectors in neighboring structures;_
_Impairing visibility on a public highway; or_
_Causing a visible plume migrating from an OWB and contacting a building on an adjacent property._
_
The above list is non-exhaustive and other conditions may also constitute a nuisance.
*What penalties could be imposed if it is determined that my operation of an OWB created a nuisance condition?*

If found to have created a nuisance condition, the DEC will try to work with the OWB owner to address the nuisance. The owner may need to take measures to eliminate the nuisance, such as increasing the height of the stack or by implementing good burn practices. In some case, the owner may be required to replace the OWB with a newer certified model or a different type of furnace. In addition, the operation of an OWB resulting in a nuisance condition under Part 247.3 is a violation, which may result in the imposition of civil penalties, fines, and/or imprisonment under Article 71 of the Environmental Conservation Law._

IMHO if you live on a rural lot with significant acreage and no nearby neighbors feel free to impact you and your families health by installing one but if you have neighbors within a 1000 feet then I would seriously remove an OWB from your options. The only way to run one clean is put in storage and run batch burns which is effectively an Indoor gasifier boiler configuration with storage. If you want to put an indoor gasifier with storage in an outside shed thats fine. There is a fundamental problem with an OWB no matter if its EPA certified that wood only burns efficiently within a range of boiler output. Once an OWB has met the heat demand for the house it has to idle until the next time there is heat demand. During this period of time the boiler is idling and thats going to put out a lot of unburnt gases and CO into the neighborhood. 

I also suspect that many dealers and owners just fundamentally ignore the operating manuals and burn green unseasoned wood. I have been at shows where the salesman are advocating that there is no need to season or split and many owners I have talked to over the years boast that they save a lot of time as they dont need to split the wood. In many of the OWB installs I have seen and owners I have talked the majority are burning bulk green wood. At best the wood gets cut to length, stacked for a few months and thrown in the boiler. Sure it will burn but the inevitable vapor plume is indicating that the majority of the heat is going up the stack and they are using far more wood. An EPA certification does nothing to reduce this lost heat due to moisture content and I expect many units are kept in bypass so they will burn.  I also see folks installing larger than needed models so that they only have to feed it once a day. That is another invitation for idling the boiler.  

I am biased as I had to go back and forth with local code folks when a neighbor did an illegal install of an OWB.  My attic smoke detectors were going off on occasion and especially in shoulder season my entire lot  smelled like smoundering wood many days. He ended up having to put in a 30 foot stack and a pole to support it to makes things tolerable and after a few years of skunking out his own yard during shoulder seasons he just uses it during really cold conditions where the boiler does not idle as often. The install still does not meet state standards and I have been advised that I could successfully sue to have it taken out of service  if he contined to run it in shoulder season. In order to make it legal the stack would have to be at minimum of 30 feet higher due to topography.


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## Medic21 (Nov 29, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> While you are making the choice, keep this in mind, OWBs are restricted or banned in parts of the country as they can become a nuisance to the neighborhood. New York has special regulations in place that homeowners are required to comply with and any one installing and operating an OWB are opening themselves up for future liability when the boiler inevitably smokes out the neighborhood.
> 
> 
> Requirements for OWB Owners
> ...



a gassifier will not have this problem and is epa certified.  That’s the difference.


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## maple1 (Nov 29, 2019)

Something else to consider is all IWBs are not equal either.

I would not install an IWB, in my basement/house, that was forced draft. It would need to be induced draft.


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## NorthernNY (Nov 29, 2019)

maple1 said:


> Something else to consider is all IWBs are not equal either.
> 
> I would not install an IWB, in my basement/house, that was forced draft. It would need to be induced draft.


Maple can you tell me why you are against forced draft in the basement of the house vs induced??? What models do you know of that are forced draft??


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## NorthernNY (Nov 29, 2019)

salecker said:


> Econoburn makes an outdoor unit.It is basically the same as the indoor unit with more insulation and a metal shed around it.
> I have one which ironically ended up as an indoor unit.I didnt know how long it would take to get my boiler building finished,it was in stock and i got a good deal.
> I personally would never have a fire burning appliance in my home,there is no Fire Department where i live,so having the flame sources out of my house is my fire insurance.
> I have no problem going outside at -40C to go to stoke the fire.It needs to be filled after 3 hour burn,so not a big deal to go outside.All the mess and danger is seperat from my home which is worth the walk.Plus i have a warm workshop 24/7 all winter long to work in.No mess in my home from dirty chainsaws,stinky snowmachines,dusty wood working ect.Plus the fact i never have to worry about carbon monoxide poisoning is worth every cold and miserable walk if there are any.



Im leaning pretty heavily towards an indoor model right now but since Econoburn has indoor models that like you said are virtually the same, what has your experience with Econoburn been?? Ease of cleaning and service? Self install?? Any problems or wrinkles that you have had??


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## maple1 (Nov 29, 2019)

NorthernNY said:


> Maple can you tell me why you are against forced draft in the basement of the house vs induced??? What models do you know of that are forced draft??



They have a tendency to spill smoke when you open the door. So dirtier that way. Not so bad in an outbuilding, maybe, but not so good for a basement.

Looking back the thread & ones mentioned, I think the Econoburn is forced. Not sure about Heatmaster.  Think Tarm & Attack are induced. Check literature on any you are looking at, should be able to tell - I am not 100% sure.


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## salecker (Nov 29, 2019)

NorthernNY said:


> Im leaning pretty heavily towards an indoor model right now but since Econoburn has indoor models that like you said are virtually the same, what has your experience with Econoburn been?? Ease of cleaning and service? Self install?? Any problems or wrinkles that you have had??


I am in the middle of nowhere. Service from Econoburn has been great whenever i need a part or information. I have only replaced my nozzle once,and i probably did it to soon. Seeing the nozzle is a essentially a chunk of concrete i got castable refractory and stainless steel needles and plan on casting my own to save the freight on a chunk of concrete from New York.
 My original control board went,that wasn't unexpected and the updated control board seems to have solved that issue.At the time i was able to run the boiler with an extension cord and using one of my aqua stats as the high limit.Having storage allowed for this temperary use without any issues.
I can clean my flue tubes in about an hour now with tools that i have made.
And i did my own install with 1000 gals of storage.
Other than the smoke staining on the outside of the boiler you would not know it going into its 10 or 11th season.
I would buy one again.


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## Medic21 (Nov 29, 2019)

maple1 said:


> They have a tendency to spill smoke when you open the door. So dirtier that way. Not so bad in an outbuilding, maybe, but not so good for a basement.
> 
> Looking back the thread & ones mentioned, I think the Econoburn is forced. Not sure about Heatmaster.  Think Tarm & Attack are induced. Check literature on any you are looking at, should be able to tell - I am not 100% sure.



heatmaster and Crown are both forced downdraft.  The G series from Heatmaster have an awesome bypass blower system for loading.


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## 3fordasho (Nov 29, 2019)

NorthernNY said:


> Maple can you tell me why you are against forced draft in the basement of the house vs induced??? What models do you know of that are forced draft??


Generally for indoor gassers a forced draft unit will have the blower on or in the front door and Maple is correct there are more issues with smoke spillage when reloading.  (blower is pushing air into firebox vs induced which is pulling air through and the blower will be located near the flue exit)  My Attack, and I believe Froling, Varm,  and effecta are all examples of induced draft.  My experience with the Attack is there is very little smoke spillage and I could live with it in my house.


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## Bad LP (Nov 29, 2019)

My Tarm will spill a little when I operate it outside the instructions. I’ve learned to minimize it but letting it burn down to coals per instructions is best. 
I’ve been out of the house for 5 days and my tanks were at 80. Useless for heating but damn... it was the easiest fire I’ve ever started from install. Normally I’m down to low 60’s or high 50’s.


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## E Yoder (Nov 30, 2019)

Several manufacturers made some huge changes in OWB gasification units in the last 5 years or so and have really cleaned up the smoke issues. The G series is legal in New York so no worries there.


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## SpaceBus (Nov 30, 2019)

What happens when a gasification OWB needs to idle?


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## peakbagger (Nov 30, 2019)

"Legal" and friendly to a local environment in the real world is two different things. The EPA testing is for steady state combustion with standardized seasoned cut and split wood.  I agree that when there is demand for heat from the house the new EPA OWB boilers are potentially far cleaner if operated and fueled as designed. Where the problem lies is when there is no demand for heat and the boiler is operated typically where the owner loads it up full to minimize loading cycles with poorly seasoned unsplit logs. Especially in shoulder seasons the boiler is mostly running in idle with no heat demand. When its idling the boiler is not running hot enough for the low emissions design to work unless the owner deliberately puts in a dump coil to keep the boiler over some minimum load.  I have had no experience operating the new style but I have heard second hand reports that folks are bypassing various functions intended to make the boiler burn clean so that they can run them easier. I cant verify it, but suspect that's the case with some OWB designs as I see references to the same tricks on EPA stoves (Magnets or permanent plugs to plug the hidden air ports to get longer burns).  The only way to get a clean burn for cordwood is eliminate idle time when the stove is below minimum combustion temperature and have intermittent long batch burns of dry wood so the boiler gets up to adequate temp for full combustion and stays there until the wood charge is gone. This means adding significant thermal storage and controls which tends to destroy the economics of OWBs. I have known a few air regulators and universally they wish OWBs never came on the market as in real world as typically operated they tend to be nuisance.


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## SpaceBus (Nov 30, 2019)

There are a few depressing YouTube videos of folks touting their OWB units and bragging about the ability to burn long unsplit pieces of wood. I would recon at least half of the rounds the chap in the video loaded to be over 1.3 Cuft each. The video clearly shows the OWB running at full demand and the stack is pouring steam like a freight train. Conveniently no mention of idling or what happens when the house is warm.


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## Medic21 (Nov 30, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> What happens when a gasification OWB needs to idle?



Same as my 7300MP.  It shuts off all incoming air and sits there.  That is why both need a good coal bed to run properly 




peakbagger said:


> "Legal" and friendly to a local environment in the real world is two different things. The EPA testing is for steady state combustion with standardized seasoned cut and split wood.  I agree that when there is demand for heat from the house the new EPA OWB boilers are potentially far cleaner if operated and fueled as designed. Where the problem lies is when there is no demand for heat and the boiler is operated typically where the owner loads it up full to minimize loading cycles with poorly seasoned unsplit logs. Especially in shoulder seasons the boiler is mostly running in idle with no heat demand. When its idling the boiler is not running hot enough for the low emissions design to work unless the owner deliberately puts in a dump coil to keep the boiler over some minimum load.  I have had no experience operating the new style but I have heard second hand reports that folks are bypassing various functions intended to make the boiler burn clean so that they can run them easier. I cant verify it, but suspect that's the case with some OWB designs as I see references to the same tricks on EPA stoves (Magnets or permanent plugs to plug the hidden air ports to get longer burns).  The only way to get a clean burn for cordwood is eliminate idle time when the stove is below minimum combustion temperature and have intermittent long batch burns of dry wood so the boiler gets up to adequate temp for full combustion and stays there until the wood charge is gone. This means adding significant thermal storage and controls which tends to destroy the economics of OWBs. I have known a few air regulators and universally they wish OWBs never came on the market as in real world as typically operated they tend to be nuisance.



You need to look at the new Gasification OWB since you obviously haven’t a clue.   Heatmaster and Crown Royal both have no way for the stove to sit and dump anything when waiting for a call to run.  Even with the load bypass open it won’t do anything for making heat.


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## Medic21 (Nov 30, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> There are a few depressing YouTube videos of folks touting their OWB units and bragging about the ability to burn long unsplit pieces of wood. I would recon at least half of the rounds the chap in the video loaded to be over 1.3 Cuft each. The video clearly shows the OWB running at full demand and the stack is pouring steam like a freight train. Conveniently no mention of idling or what happens when the house is warm.



yes, large rounds in a conventional cause a lot of smoke. i dropped a dead tree yesterday and verified the moisture at 21% in some of them by splitting a few in half. it smoked when I loaded it and cleaned up in 10 min. The rounds are anywhere from 4” to 18”.
The gasifiers won’t take a large round like that.  The reason I went with what I have is to have the ability to burn coal.  If I split 6” and load right I can get a 12hr burn that’s fairly clean.  During idle it has no smoke at all because it shuts off all air.  Trick is setting that to not suffocate the fire completely and still have coals to retire.


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## peakbagger (Nov 30, 2019)

Medic21 said:


> Same as my 7300MP.  It shuts off all incoming air and sits there.  That is why both need a good coal bed to run properly
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Okay, you are obviously selling and I and others are not buying. I will let the OP make up his own mind knowing that he is two states away so i dont have to put up with the inevitable stench.


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## maple1 (Nov 30, 2019)

Medic21 said:


> Same as my 7300MP.  It shuts off all incoming air and sits there.  That is why both need a good coal bed to run properly
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The dumping thing could be done with any boiler, if desired. It's not a boiler function but rather an aspect of system design.


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## Medic21 (Nov 30, 2019)

Full load, at idle for another 30-40 min.


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## maple1 (Nov 30, 2019)

Medic21 said:


> Full load, at idle for another 30-40 min.
> View attachment 252413
> View attachment 252414
> View attachment 252415



I think when coming off idle it would put some smoke out?


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## Medic21 (Nov 30, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> Okay, you are obviously selling and I and others are not buying. I will let the OP make up his own mind knowing that he is two states away so i dont have to put up with the inevitable stench.



Not selling anything. Look up a G series and compare the emissions, per hour not when burning at max only, and compare them to IWB. You might be surprised that they have to meet the same standard now for residential use.

I just did the research for installing my system this year instead of opinions. I get it that you’ve had a bad experience. More than likely a conventional boiler installed in a residential area. Stupid, only an idiot would do that and it should be regulated.

Of you spend the time looking at any data on a gasifier OWB you would find efficiencies upwards of 80%. That’s better than a lot of LP furnaces that are still in service at 60% because they were built to last then.

You are spewing old information.

the Crown 7200E is cleaner burning than the Econburn.


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## Medic21 (Nov 30, 2019)

maple1 said:


> I think when coming off idle it would put some smoke out?



very much so.  It’s a Conventional.  I live in the middle the country if I lived in a residential area I would put gasser in.  There are a lot of people that have no clue how far the new gassers Have come in outdoor wood boilers.


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## Medic21 (Nov 30, 2019)

Looks like the Crown 7200E is even cleaner than the comparable Garn for what he’s heating.  

@peakbagger would you like to find some data and testing information to debunk the EPA’s own data?


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## maple1 (Nov 30, 2019)

I don't know, so that's why I'm asking. Does the testing include idling and coming out of it? For boilers not required to have storage?


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## Medic21 (Nov 30, 2019)

maple1 said:


> I don't know, so that's why I'm asking. Does the testing include idling and coming out of it? For boilers not required to have storage?



I’m not real familiar with indoor units with large storage. These outdoor units have close to 300 gallons. I would think every single one my conventional included would put some smoke out whenever they fire if nothing else It needs to clean out the firebox and get fresh air in it.

I try and get mine to runTwice an hour on a load of good Drywood it runs 10 to 15 minutes and then shuts off after the first hour it cleans up and pretty much has no smoke after loading.

The downdraft gasser units pretty much have to burn clean or they won’t burn the way they’re designed.  They are not a secondary burn.


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## Medic21 (Nov 30, 2019)

@maple1 ive been told by guys running the G series and Pristine stoves that 4 hours idle is about the limit so they don’t go out.


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## 3fordasho (Nov 30, 2019)

Here is the start up for doing a batch burn in a indoor style downdraft gasification boiler (hydronic heater- we hope to not boil anything ;-)


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## 3fordasho (Nov 30, 2019)

part 2  (sorry I don't know how to edit to make this one video)

.


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## Karl_northwind (Dec 1, 2019)

Medic21 said:


> heatmaster and Crown are both forced downdraft.  The G series from Heatmaster have an awesome bypass blower system for loading.


my five second inspection on any new boiler I see on the market is whether it's induced draft or forced.  if it's induced I'm still listening, if it's forced (air blowing into the fire rather than sucked thru and sent up the stack) I don't bother. 

the heatmaster units are induced, which means the blower is at the 
base of the chimney.


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## HitzerHillbilly (Dec 1, 2019)

I feel like conventional OWB’s are despised on this site. That being said, I didn’t have $13-$20K for an install so I purchased a used conventional Heatmor. Bottom pic is at idle, middle pic is it just starting to cycle, third pic is approximately 5-7 min after the cycle starts. I wouldn’t necessarily say it’s smoking like a freight train. Actually seems like it generally smokes less than my Hitzer insert did. Now if I throw a full load of green wood in, then yes it smokes. As will any stove, and you wouldn’t want to throw green wood in a gasser.....indoor or outdoor. Now I also live in the middle of nowhere so neighbors aren’t really an issue. As far as the stench.....I kind of like the smell of a wood burning stove, call me crazy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bad LP (Dec 1, 2019)

I came home to Ma from Me today and pass a few OWB. They were all smoking and I’m glad they are not near me. 
Seeing a yard full of rounds tells me more than I need to know about what’s being burned.


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## Medic21 (Dec 1, 2019)

Karl_northwind said:


> my five second inspection on any new boiler I see on the market is whether it's induced draft or forced.  if it's induced I'm still listening, if it's forced (air blowing into the fire rather than sucked thru and sent up the stack) I don't bother.
> 
> the heatmaster units are induced, which means the blower is at the
> base of the chimney.


The Pristine is the same way.  I researched both heavily when looking.


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## Medic21 (Dec 1, 2019)

HitzerHillbilly said:


> I feel like conventional OWB’s are despised on this site. That being said, I didn’t have $13-$20K for an install so I purchased a used conventional Heatmor. Bottom pic is at idle, middle pic is it just starting to cycle, third pic is approximately 5-7 min after the cycle starts. I wouldn’t necessarily say it’s smoking like a freight train. Actually seems like it generally smokes less than my Hitzer insert did. Now if I throw a full load of green wood in, then yes it smokes. As will any stove, and you wouldn’t want to throw green wood in a gasser.....indoor or outdoor. Now I also live in the middle of nowhere so neighbors aren’t really an issue. As far as the stench.....I kind of like the smell of a wood burning stove, call me crazy.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



mine will smoke like crazy with very dry wood worse than 20%-25% wood.  It’s a balancing act to learn how to run it decent.  My neighbors that are close enough to smell anything have all told me they love the smell from when I was burning inside.  The MP is still cleaner than my original furnace in the basement.


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## HitzerHillbilly (Dec 1, 2019)

Medic21 said:


> mine will smoke like crazy with very dry wood worse than 20%-25% wood. It’s a balancing act to learn how to run it decent. My neighbors that are close enough to smell anything have all told me they love the smell from when I was burning inside. The MP is still cleaner than my original furnace in the basement.



I threw some green wood in a couple weeks ago and it smoked a lot during its first cycle


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## HitzerHillbilly (Dec 1, 2019)

I hope the OP is still interested in a stove after this thread.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Medic21 (Dec 1, 2019)

HitzerHillbilly said:


> I hope the OP is still interested in a stove after this thread.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I hope he has enough factual information to make the best decision for himself.

I looked real hard at a couple different indoor boiler units also.  I do not like the idea of a solid fuel pressurized tank in my basement so I ruled that out quickly.  There are pros and cons to both.


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## Bad LP (Dec 1, 2019)

Lot of paranoia going on.


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## Medic21 (Dec 1, 2019)

Bad LP said:


> Lot of paranoia going on.



not really.  He asked about the two.  When I tried to give him information on the OWB I was immediately told how bad they were and how dirty they are.  The facts and realities are the newer, within the last 4-5 years, the OWB have become very clean and efficient with the gasification units.  There are people that want to lump them into the old conventional chew chew trains and they are not that anymore.


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## E Yoder (Dec 2, 2019)

Earlier in this thread someone asked what the cycling gasser OWB's do when coming off an idle when the gasification has been completely stopped for a while. 
If the coal bed is still lit (which it typically is unless it's been off all day), the draft opens, fan runs, and a red glow spreads through the coal bed. Very little if any smoke because the air is introduced down low, basically only feeding the coals which don't smoke anyway. As the damper gradually opens to 100% the coal bed comes to life, and the gasses fill the reburn brick below the nozzle, creating that familiar torch flame. 
It works pretty reliably. I've installed dozens of  many in very dense neighborhoods, with zero complaints. I'm not trying to sell here, just saying the world of OWB's has forever changed and there's no reason to smoke out your neighbor. 
As was mentioned there are thousands of the old conventional units out there. Often operated poorly.


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## maple1 (Dec 2, 2019)

Medic21 said:


> I hope he has enough factual information to make the best decision for himself.
> 
> I looked real hard at a couple different indoor boiler units also.  I do not like the idea of a solid fuel pressurized tank in my basement so I ruled that out quickly.  There are pros and cons to both.



That's not really an overwhelming reason to rule out an IWB. There are millions of pressurized hydronic heating systems in use all over the continent, and millions of solid fuel fired wood stoves. I don't think I have ever heard or read about something going boom. The odd chimney fire, yes, but the risk of that goes to something like minimal to zero with a clean burner.


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## 3fordasho (Dec 2, 2019)

maple1 said:


> That's not really an overwhelming reason to rule out an IWB. There are millions of pressurized hydronic heating systems in use all over the continent, and millions of solid fuel fired wood stoves. I don't think I have ever heard or read about something going boom. The odd chimney fire, yes, but the risk of that goes to something like minimal to zero with a clean burner.



I'm much more concerned about a natural gas or propane line coming into the house.  Zero concern about 1000 gallons of water at 14.7 psi.    My storage is in a outbuilding, but if I could have fit it in the basement of the house I want to heat - that is a better place for it.


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## peakbagger (Dec 2, 2019)

Pressurized water tanks don't go boom. Water is incompressible so it doesn't build up much stored energy under pressure. If a tank fails it usually just springs a leak until the pressure equalizes. That's why water is typically used for hydro testing tanks and piping compared to compressed air or steam.  Both air and steam are compressible so both can build up quite bit of energy and can fail catastrophically under pressure. Insurance covers water damage from commercial tanks used for heat storage, it may not for tanks that were altered by unqualified people. This is an issue with using altered old propane tanks for water storage  unless the alterations  are done by a code shop.  The reality is the insurance company wants to recover what they paid to the homeowner for damage claims. They can go after a manufacturer of a tank designed for storage but they have a lot more difficult time going after an altered tank unless someone is stupid enough to commercially make alterations and not follow code. I think most folks rationalize that the propane tank is overdesigned for service as a low pressure water storage tank and just decide to take the risk of a wet floor.

I am far more concerned when I see old compressed air tanks taken out of service due to age and condition that seem to end up in private garages and residences. A 60 gallon air tank failure can take out a wall and kill someone if it fails. 

My "boiler" actually a hydronic heating device like 99% of the biomass "boilers" on the market,  has redundant safeties including a lesser used safety these days that dumps into the firebox.


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## Medic21 (Dec 2, 2019)

3fordasho said:


> I'm much more concerned about a natural gas or propane line coming into the house.  Zero concern about 1000 gallons of water at 14.7 psi.    My storage is in a outbuilding, but if I could have fit it in the basement of the house I want to heat - that is a better place for it.



I agree it’s a rarity and their are safety systems.  An on demand modulating propane boiler is much safer.


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## Bad LP (Dec 2, 2019)

Medic21 said:


> not really.  He asked about the two.  When I tried to give him information on the OWB I was immediately told how bad they were and how dirty they are.  The facts and realities are the newer, within the last 4-5 years, the OWB have become very clean and efficient with the gasification units.  There are people that want to lump them into the old conventional chew chew trains and they are not that anymore.


My comment was in regard to having pressurized storage in the building. Post #51


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## salecker (Dec 2, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> What happens when a gasification OWB needs to idle?


Bad things,creosote is the first.Then lack of efficiency ....


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## Karl_northwind (Dec 7, 2019)

Efficiency is a matter of personal preference.  as in it's a trade off.  my OWB gasifier is many feet away from anything expensive or irreplaceable.  I will bet your indoor burner isn't.   I'll happily burn a little more wood to keep it away from my valuables. 
Smoke is not a personal preferrance where it will affect others.
The creosote that forms in the upper chamber isn't any worse than what I have seen in the uppers of many indoor gasifiers burned with storage.  most OWB gasifiers are built from 409 stainless which doesn't rot out like the older upper chambers of mild steel. 
the reason that your indoor boiler can be mild steel is that it dries out every cycle.  

I'm going to guess that you don't actually have any first hand experience with any of the modern OWB gasifiers.


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## Case1030 (Dec 9, 2019)

salecker said:


> I have no problem going outside at -40C to go to stoke the fire.It needs to be filled after 3 hour burn,so not a big deal to go outside.All the mess and danger is seperat from my home which is worth the walk.



Every 3 hours in -40c!? If I owned a boiler I'd aim for 12 hour burns in that weather with a proper setup. Going outside every 3 hours wouldn't even be worth having a boiler.


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## maple1 (Dec 10, 2019)

Case1030 said:


> Every 3 hours in -40c!? If I owned a boiler I'd aim for 12 hour burns in that weather with a proper setup. Going outside every 3 hours wouldn't even be worth having a boiler.



Long burns like 12 hours aren't something to strive for with a boiler, and wouldn't likely be considered up and up 'proper'. Longer burns come from smoldering. Better to load full a couple times over 3-4 (4-6?) hours with a wide open burn and catching the heat for later use. Then not tending it at all until 18 hours later.


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## Case1030 (Dec 10, 2019)

maple1 said:


> Long burns like 12 hours aren't something to strive for with a boiler, and wouldn't likely be considered up and up 'proper'. Longer burns come from smoldering. Better to load full a couple times over 3-4 (4-6?) hours with a wide open burn and catching the heat for later use. Then not tending it at all until 18 hours later.



What I meant by burns is that I wouldn't want to "have" to load it every 3 hours outside or indoors. Even in extream weather I wouldn't want a system that needs over 2-3 charges (using storage) per day... kinda defeats the purpose of even owning a boiler if that can't be accomplished.


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## maple1 (Dec 10, 2019)

Case1030 said:


> What I meant by burns is that I wouldn't want to "have" to load it every 3 hours outside or indoors. Even in extream weather I wouldn't want a system that needs over 2-3 charges (using storage) per day... kinda defeats the purpose of even owning a boiler if that can't be accomplished.



No, I wouldnt either. Thinking also that's not quite what salecker was saying either.


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## Case1030 (Dec 10, 2019)

maple1 said:


> No, I wouldnt either. Thinking also that's not quite what salecker was saying either.



Yeah... Maybe he meant 3 hours between x amount of charges.


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## Medic21 (Dec 10, 2019)

I can see a 3hr burn to heat the storage and repeating it a couple times a day.  I’m assuming that’s what he meant.


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## salecker (Dec 11, 2019)

Case1030 said:


> What I meant by burns is that I wouldn't want to "have" to load it every 3 hours outside or indoors. Even in extream weather I wouldn't want a system that needs over 2-3 charges (using storage) per day... kinda defeats the purpose of even owning a boiler if that can't be accomplished.





Medic21 said:


> I can see a 3hr burn to heat the storage and repeating it a couple times a day.  I’m assuming that’s what he meant.


Exactly.At present temps i start a fire at 6:30 and load once and its done at 11:30, nothing to do till tonight at 6:30 ish. No smoke ,no ash,no bugs,no flames,no carbon monoxide in my home...priceless


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## Medic21 (Dec 11, 2019)

salecker said:


> Exactly.At present temps i start a fire at 6:30 and load once and its done at 11:30, nothing to do till tonight at 6:30 ish. No smoke ,no ash,no bugs,no flames,no carbon monoxide in my home...priceless


I shoot for 5 AM and 5 PM. It works out pretty good.


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## CaperM (Dec 11, 2019)

I retired my 22 year gasfierJetstream boiler 2 years ago and running a sotve in basement. The Jetstream  was great but the refactory had to be replaced.Icame across a vedolux 37 gasfier on kijji 3 weeks ago,9 year old and never used.I was skeptical at first but it was never used.It is sitting in my garage ready to go in after the new year.I have 720 gallons for storage and will be glad to get back to batch burns.


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## hobbyheater (Dec 11, 2019)

CaperM said:


> I retired my 22 year gasfierJetstream boiler 2 years ago and running a sotve in basement. The Jetstream  was great but the refactory had to be replaced.Icame across a vedolux 37 gasfier on kijji 3 weeks ago,9 year old and never used.I was skeptical at first but it was never used.It is sitting in my garage ready to go in after the new year.I have 720 gallons for storage and will be glad to get back to batch burns.



  If you haven't got rid of your Jetstream yet and if it has the belt driven blower, I would very much be interested in the blower.   I installed a new Jetstream in 2014 and I am always on the outlook for parts.  See my install thread below.






						Jetstreams- Out with the old, in with the new.
					

PART ONE  This is a project that was done with mixed emotions! The boiler was still in good condition in spite of being 30+ years of age. The recent and quick death of an older brother to cancer, a second older brother having had a debilitating stroke last fall, and my oldest brother with...




					www.hearth.com


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## Mike Fromme (Dec 21, 2019)

hobbyheater said:


> If you haven't got rid of your Jetstream yet and if it has the belt driven blower, I would very much be interested in the blower.   I installed a new Jetstream in 2014 and I am always on the outlook for parts.  See my install thread below.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Still trying to corner the market on jetstreams... I guess somethings never change


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## CaperM (Dec 21, 2019)

Mike Fromme said:


> Still trying to corner the market on jetstreams... I guess somethings never change
> [/QUOTE
> 
> 
> ...


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