# Moldy basement smell



## vinny11950 (Dec 29, 2011)

My finished basement smells like mold, especially in the summer.  The smell goes away in the winter and comes back strong by the end of summer.  I bought the house 2 years ago and it came with the finished basement.

It doesn't look that good, as the sheet rock has some holes in the walls and they didn't use mold resistant sheet rock either. 

I have been hunting for water leaks and fixing them when I can.  However, I think it is a losing battle, and I am thinking I have to tear the whole thing down because it was not done right.

The foundation walls are poured concrete, plastic sheeting as vapor barrier, studs, fiber glass insulation and sheet rock.

I have talked to people who say that usually when there is a strong smell of mold there usually is a big mold colony somewhere, and if I could find it and deal with it it could be fixed.  But I think with the bad sheet rock it will never work.

Plus if I tear down the walls I can apply some kind of concrete sealer to keep down the humidity.

Any other ideas, suggestions in dealing with a moldy finished basement?

Thanks.


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## StuckInTheMuck (Dec 29, 2011)

How old is your house?
How far below grade is your basement floor?  Do you know if there is a vapor barrier below the floor?
Is there a perimeter drain or similar with a sump pump?  If not, consider one depending on drainage around your house.
How far away from the house do the downspouts send water?  If its right next to the house, it will exacerbate your problems.  You want to get the water away from your house.  
Do you run a dehumidifier in your basement?  According to the EPA website, maintaining 30-60% relative humidity will help with controlling mold.  
If you find it, get it tested to determine if it is harmful black mold.

Just a few things, I'm sure others will have more.


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## Don2222 (Dec 29, 2011)

Hi Vinny

  I suggest that you watch the TV series Holmes on Homes where Mike Holmes nicknamed Mike Do it Right has gone into houses exactly like yours and fixed the mold issue in the basement no matter what the cost! Actually it turned out to be only about $50K.

  First he attacks the outside by digging up all around the foundation and not only coating it with the black tar sealant but also nails a plastic water barrier with special nails to keep the water out. Also he installs the crushed stone around the foundation and a french drain.

  Then he attacks the inside by removing all mold infected surfaces such as dry wall, fiberglass insulation and studs. He has the special mold team in the space suits come in to remove and bag all the debris safely. Then he comes in and does the patching and water proofing of the interior concrete wall. Then it is just a simple basement finish job but he uses BLUE moisture proof studs and water resistant rigid foam insulation or to be more expensive that fancy purple spray foam that they can whack on in one day. Then of course he finishes off with the green or blue board moisture resistant drywall and a nice paint finish! That is the only way to permanently cure the problem. Actually if you write an email to him you could even be on TV!!

Here is a basement mold episode
http://makeitright.ca/Holmes_Media/Holmes_On_Homes/view_episode.php?season_id=64&episode_id=280

Good Luck


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## jharkin (Dec 29, 2011)

Mike Holmes never met a house he didn't want to gut.  Don't get me wrong the guy has great intentions and does quality work but he can go waaay overboard. Go read some threads about him at JLC or fine homebuilding. 


Dont assume you necessarily have problems as bad as on that show or have to go to the extremes he does. However opening up a wall to find out whats going on is definately in order, and one thing Mike does get right is understanding that you can never completely stop water infiltration from the inside. You can put in drainage to capture and expel the water but all barriers or coatings on the inside will always be doomed to fail as they just trap the water in the wall.


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## vinny11950 (Dec 29, 2011)

Thanks for the response guys.

Don, I love Holmes on Homes and watch it like it was crack cocaine.  However, I don't have the money to do what he would do to my basement.  Side note:  I said it before but it is worth saying again, Love the Hearth on the pellet stove!

Stuck in the Mud:  the basement is 5 feet below grade, no vapor barrier underneath the concrete floor.  I have the down spouts leading away from the house but maybe I need to take out farther.  One goes into a drywell I have no idea where it is.  the house was built in 1972.  I think you are correct, in that I need a sump pump to move water from under the floor.

Though I don't have water seepage, just a lot of moisture.

Jharkin:  You are correct, I think I will have to set it up to be a water management issue here.  I am going to put a sump pump and french drains around the house.  See it that works.

I was thinking to treat the mold in the basement to 1) install some kind of UVC lights to run at night (taking the precautions of course) 2) try an ozone generator 3) try a sulfur smoke flare that kills mold (sounds radical but the guy at the hydroponic store says it works).

I am beginning to think basements are not meant to be finished with sheet rock walls.  Too much trouble.

Another thing I question on Holmes on Homes is that he always uses a plastic vapor barrier and I have seen plenty of discussions advising against it, as it doesn't let the concrete breathe.

I also plan to install a wood stove down there to try things out and warm the house.

Any other ideas are welcomed.  Thanks guys.


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## Don2222 (Dec 29, 2011)

vinny11950 said:
			
		

> Thanks for the response guys.
> 
> Don, I love Holmes on Homes and watch it like it was crack cocaine.  However, I don't have the money to do what he would do to my basement.  Side note:  I said it before but it is worth saying again, Love the Hearth on the pellet stove!
> 
> ...



Good Luck Vinny, you know what you are up against.

I have a pellet stove in my basement. Easy than wood, just set the thermostat and clean every few days.


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## vinny11950 (Dec 29, 2011)

Don2222 said:
			
		

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Don, you built I new hearth for the stove, if i remember correctly seeing a thread about it.  if so, how did it come out?


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## velvetfoot (Dec 29, 2011)

Do you use a dehumidifier during the summer?


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## vinny11950 (Dec 29, 2011)

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> Do you use a dehumidifier during the summer?



I do, but not as much as I should.  it really drives up the electric bill in the summer.

I just want to get rid of the smell.

I know some people freak out about mold, but it is almost every where.  I know I can't kill it all but if I can just control it so it doesn't smell i will be happy.

Does any one know from experience is the concrete sealers work?


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## maverick06 (Dec 29, 2011)

my basement (unfinished) will sometimes smell, turn on the dehumidifier and it will go away pretty quick. For me, the moisture is coming in through the block walls, no liquid water.... usually....

paying attention when buying a dehumidifier is pretty important. Getting an energy star appliance really pays off! I was at lowes looking at 2 different ones, the one that cost $30 more was going to cost me about $60 LESS per  summer to run. 

In the winter I might turn it on once a month to really drive down the humidity.


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## Don2222 (Dec 31, 2011)

vinny11950 said:
			
		

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Yes Vinny, it is my 2nd hearth build
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/84018/

Similar to my 1st hearth in pic below

I did not finish yet because I have to put in the electrical outlet for the stove but will go back to it soon. Stay tuned.


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## vinny11950 (Dec 31, 2011)

Don2222 said:
			
		

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There it is.  Looking good.  Have fun and good luck.


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## yooperdave (Dec 31, 2011)

[quote author="jharkin" date="1325137311"]Mike Holmes never met a house he didn't want to gut.  Don't get me wrong the guy has great intentions and does quality work but he can go waaay overboard. Go read some threads about him at JLC or fine homebuilding. 

man, you nailed that one right on the head! (about holmes)
suggest using a dehumidifier and maybe something like mothballs???for the summer months?  what do all the poor souls who store their wood inside use for the added moisture and smell do? before we got the owb at 99's, we lived with the couple of weeks of moisture and smell.  ran the dehumidifier and box fans against the wood pile (usually 3 rows of 7 1/2 feet by 26 feet long) till things got better.
just sayin that maybe someone who stores their wood inside has run into the same problem of moldy smell and higher (although temporary) elevated humidity levels


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## vinny11950 (Dec 31, 2011)

yooperdave said:
			
		

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## Lumber-Jack (Jan 1, 2012)

It doesnâ€™t hurt the concrete itself to be damp or wet, you just donâ€™t want the moisture to get to anything else inside. 
If you are going to have a wood framed wall inside a concrete foundation wall you should really have two vapour barriers, one vapour barrier against the concrete wall between the framing to prevent outside moisture from seeping through the concrete into the wood and insulation, and another barrier between the framing and the drywall to prevent inside moisture from penetrating into the wall and condensing on the wood and insulation.
Of course reducing the amount of water in the ground around the house outside will help outside penetration considerably, also increasing ventilation in the basement, and/or a dehumidifier would help with moisture inside.
As for the floor, if there is no vapour barrier under the concrete floor youâ€™ll want to use some sort of good sealer on the concrete, or possibly lay a poly vapour barrier and a sleeper floor built on top.

However if you are getting so much moisture that there are pools of water forming in the basement these measures wonâ€™t be enough, it just depends on how bad the water problem is.

Iâ€™d be ripping those walls apart to see whatâ€™s going on in there.


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## rustynut (Jan 1, 2012)

I hate to answer a question with a question but.........
What is this Blue & Green board all about ?
I'm guessing it is similar to standard drywall.
Does it work / install in the same way ?
What are the costs ?
thanks
rn


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## vinny11950 (Jan 2, 2012)

thanks, Carbon Liberator, I will take your advice and take down the walls bit by bit.

Rustynut, the Blue and Green boards are mold resistant, which means the paper backing is not going to provide food for mold, unlike the regular sheet rock.

Otherwise they are the same, except a little pricier.


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## raygard (Jan 3, 2012)

I ripped out my basement this summer and put in drainage to take care of the downspouts and subsoil.  I designed it myself (I'm a land surveyor) and got the Civil Engineers at work to cross check me.

The attached link shows some of the progress.  Solved the problem though.

http://thedocumentist.wordpress.com/2011/08/16/home-improvement-projects-you-will-want-to-remember/

Ray


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## vinny11950 (Jan 3, 2012)

rayg said:
			
		

> I ripped out my basement this summer and put in drainage to take care of the downspouts and subsoil.  I designed it myself (I'm a land surveyor) and got the Civil Engineers at work to cross check me.
> 
> The attached link shows some of the progress.  Solved the problem though.
> 
> ...



Wow, that Bobcat looks awesome, Ray.  Thanks for sharing.

So it care of your water problem 100% ?

Also, how big is the drywell and how far from the house is it?


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## raygard (Jan 4, 2012)

> Wow, that Bobcat looks awesome, Ray.  Thanks for sharing.
> 
> So it care of your water problem 100% ?
> 
> Also, how big is the drywell and how far from the house is it?



It's amazing how it took care of the problem.  Taking care of the downspouts and window wells eliminated entirely the surface water ingressing through the block wall of the basement.  After putting the drainage system in it took a further two weeks to "dry out" the cinder block basement walls with a dehumidifier at which point I had _closed _cell icyene foam sprayed over the top of the cinder block.  The basement, for the first time in it's 30year life span hasn't smelt like a basement.

I was fortunate though that I had some elevation grade on the property where I could dump the runoff water down hill.  I think I had an 18" fall to play with and the pipe grades worked out to be 1.5%.  If you were going to dump in to a dry well the first question you should try and resolve is what type of soil would the drywell go into.  I considered a dry well until I did a test borehole (6' hand auger took care of it) and found out that I had clay soil.  Water doesn't perculate into clay all that well, so all I would have had (if a drywell was installed) would have been a wet well, with no way for the water to drain away.  That's not a good solution, especially when the "dry well" fills up with water and then fills back up the drain lines.  If you have a sandy soil then a dry well works wonders and can solve drainage problems quite readily.  As for the distance from the house ?  The question acutally becomes how does water interact with soil and how deep will the well be.  Water, when it hits a very sandy soil (lets take beach sand for this example) drains in the form of a cone below the point where water hits soil.  The sandier (if that is a word) the soil the narrower the cone of wet sand, similarily, the denser the soil (that is, the smaller the grain of sand) the greater the spread of water in the cone of water penetration.  This cone of penetration can be at an angle of 45Â° depending on the soil type (see the attached image).  Ok, all that said about wetness cones to say that the distance of a "dry well" from the house is dependant on the soil type.  In short put it a fair ways away from your house as you don't want the water running back into your basement as it seeps into the ground.

If you don't have any grade on your land, then you can put in a drywell and inside the drywell you put a 6" perforated, socked pipe with a down the hole pump connected to an inch and a half pipe which then pumps the water out to the street (you may have to make a curb cut, but you can patch that with a bit of concrete).

hope this helps

Ray


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## gpcollen1 (Jan 4, 2012)

The building Science website information is the place to stop and start.  I have a similar issue though I have not let it get to the mold part.  When I moved in, I knew the basement was damp and new that there were two issues; ground sloped toward the house and gutters dumping near the foundation.  I solved those quickly and since then have been contemplating my final renovation of the 1/2 sub-grade basement.  right now I have less than adequate insulation and carpet on slab.  So it is cold in the winter, ok in the spring and fall and damp in the summer if I don't run A/C and/or dehumidifier.  

You NEED to find out if you have just condensation issues or water leaking in through the walls.  That is the biggie...as the articles at Building Science will tell you.  

I plan on:
gutting the basement
filling any cracks and sealing the foundation
Putting XPS against all concrete
Framing over the XPS on the floor as well as framing walls against the XPS
Insulating with Roxul
Finishing with sheet rock
the floor will get 1/2 wood floor and 1/2 tile for the wood stove side including entry from the garage.

The only bad thing about doing this is that the room will not be able to handle the heat from the Olympic after the remodel and i may have to move the Castine down there.  I think I will probably just end up getting a soap stone stove or building some sort of Mass Heater...

http://www.buildingscience.com/search?SearchableText=basement


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## semipro (Jan 4, 2012)

CTwoodburner said:
			
		

> The building Science website information is the place to stop and start.  I have a similar issue though I have not let it get to the mold part.  When I moved in, I knew the basement was damp and new that there were two issues; ground sloped toward the house and gutters dumping near the foundation.  I solved those quickly and since then have been contemplating my final renovation of the 1/2 sub-grade basement.  right now I have less than adequate insulation and carpet on slab.  So it is cold in the winter, ok in the spring and fall and damp in the summer if I don't run A/C and/or dehumidifier.
> 
> You NEED to find out if you have just condensation issues or water leaking in through the walls.  That is the biggie...as the articles at Building Science will tell you.
> 
> ...



+1 on the Building Science site; a great reference.   

I'm in the process of doing almost exactly the same to my basement as CT.  Except I'm planning to use fiberglass instead of Roxul and am considering installing a floating floor directly over XPS foam for the floor.  

I'd like to find an alternative to Sheetrock but haven't found a good one yet.  I'd prefer panels that I could remove and replace.


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## vinny11950 (Jan 5, 2012)

rayg said:
			
		

> > Wow, that Bobcat looks awesome, Ray.  Thanks for sharing.
> >
> > So it care of your water problem 100% ?
> >
> ...



Hi, Ray, I really appreciate you taking the time to explain it to me in fine detail.  The drawing really helps explain it.  This will help me plan the project much better.

I have no grade on my property and everything is pretty flat.  However, I do live in Long Island NY which is known for soil that lets the water seep away very quickly.  I will dig a test hole, though, just to make sure.

As a kid I used to build mud damns and ditches just for fun, so this project takes the kid to a new level.

Anyway, thanks again.


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## raygard (Jan 5, 2012)

> +1 on the Building Science site; a great reference.
> 
> I'm in the process of doing almost exactly the same to my basement as CT.  Except I'm planning to use fiberglass instead of Roxul and am considering installing a floating floor directly over XPS foam for the floor.
> 
> I'd like to find an alternative to Sheetrock but haven't found a good one yet.  I'd prefer panels that I could remove and replace.





Have a look at this system

http://franchising.owenscorning.com/bfs/


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## vinny11950 (Jan 5, 2012)

CTwoodburner said:
			
		

> The building Science website information is the place to stop and start.  I have a similar issue though I have not let it get to the mold part.  When I moved in, I knew the basement was damp and new that there were two issues; ground sloped toward the house and gutters dumping near the foundation.  I solved those quickly and since then have been contemplating my final renovation of the 1/2 sub-grade basement.  right now I have less than adequate insulation and carpet on slab.  So it is cold in the winter, ok in the spring and fall and damp in the summer if I don't run A/C and/or dehumidifier.
> 
> You NEED to find out if you have just condensation issues or water leaking in through the walls.  That is the biggie...as the articles at Building Science will tell you.
> 
> ...



Hi, CTWoodburner, the link is a great resource.  Thanks for sharing.

You are going to thoroughly finish your basement much more than I plan to do mine.  One reason I don't want to finish it much is I don't want to be ripping it apart if something happens, like a water leak or more drainage problems.

I always think how easy it would be to do all this when the foundation is first poured.  For a small price the builder could seal all the walls from outside, maybe use a less pourous concrete and some foundation drains with a sump pump hole, at least.  But that is not the builders goal because no one will ever pay him for that.  

If I only had a time machine and pay him a few bucks to do it right!


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## semipro (Jan 5, 2012)

rayg said:
			
		

> > +1 on the Building Science site; a great reference.
> >
> > I'm in the process of doing almost exactly the same to my basement as CT.  Except I'm planning to use fiberglass instead of Roxul and am considering installing a floating floor directly over XPS foam for the floor.
> >
> ...



Thanks.  They only allow certified contractors to install this system which kills the deal for me.


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## Jags (Jan 5, 2012)

vinny11950 said:
			
		

> Rustynut, the Blue and Green boards are mold resistant, which means the paper backing is not going to provide food for mold, unlike the regular sheet rock.
> 
> Otherwise they are the same, except a little pricier.



Not completely true.  The blue board was sold as a plaster or tile backer.  The paper used on it is less absorbent of water as to not suck the moisture out of thin coat plaster base.  The green board was sold as moisture resistant.  Common applications were bathrooms.  Green board has all but been discontinued.  Tile backer board such as durock is now recommended.

Short answer: You don't want blue board, and green board isn't going to do much for you in a damp environment for the long haul.  It has to have the ability to dry out between "wet" sessions (like taking a shower and then the bathroom dries out over a day long period).  Its going to be more expensive, but in your situation I would recommend cement board OR regular drywall if you can vapor barrier it well enough. 

That is my semi-professional opinion (been in the supply business for years).


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## rwhite (Jan 5, 2012)

By and large basements are prone to stink as the air movement is often times limited. We have the TV room in the basement and that is where there I usually find any number of stinking teenagers. Don't know what it is about teens but they stink. Aside from that I get the stale air smell in the basement. I usually run my furnace fan ( which has intake air vents in the basement) at least once a week for 1/2 day to exchange the air. Summer time I just leave the windows open down there. Make sure that you aren't watering any plants or grass right next to the outside of the house and install gutters if you don't have them. I have an old house and I know there are cracks in the basement foundation that if exposed to to much water will leak. Gutters solved that problem for me.


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## semipro (Jan 5, 2012)

Jags said:
			
		

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+1 on what Jags says with one caveat  

You have to be real careful installing a vapor barrier in a basement wall.  Water coming through the wall can get trapped by the barrier and cause problems.  

Building Science and others recommend building basement walls that breathe. 

If you install drywall you need to use a wall board like DensArmor (DensArmour?) that doesn't support mold growth.


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## vinny11950 (Jan 7, 2012)

Wow, guys, the info is amazing.  It has already corrected some of the incorrect ideas I had about my project.

Jags - thanks for the correction on the wall boards.  I will not be using them then, as the summer months easily bring 95% humidity days, day after day, so keeping the moisture down really is a challenge.

Semipro - the DensArmour sounds like a good choice.  will have to look into it.  probably will just seal the concrete foundation with Drylock, and then insulate with something that I don't have to cover up.  Have to talk to the building department about that one.  Thanks, though, as I would have never found Densarmour.

Rayg - I would use the Dow Corning Basement finishing system, but like Semipro said, i would have to pay someone to install.  I look around Google and people talked about tens of thousands of dollars to install.  But it does look nice.  I wonder how it holds up in the long run.


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