# Firewood moisture content debate for EPA FURNACE



## Micdrew (Jan 23, 2022)

Ok so I’ve been reading a lot about how a lot guys here  that are burning an EPA furnace like their wood super dry 15% or at least under 20%  so I’ve been doing some research, let’s start with the kuuma which is what I’m running, Lampa posted a  video on YouTube back in the fall talking about firewood basics, in that video they specifically say that it’s important not to have your wood too dry because you’re drying out burnable BTUs all you want to dry out is the water content, Lampa likes to see moisture contents between 18%-28%  as stated in that video. the Caddy advanced according to their manual wants to see the same moisture content 18-28%, the heat commander wants to see moisture content between 15-20% Both the kuuma and the caddy seem high to me. I’d like to hear others input on this I’m also hoping Lampa sees the post and comments on it.


----------



## bholler (Jan 23, 2022)

Micdrew said:


> Ok so I’ve been reading a lot about how a lot guys here  that are burning an EPA furnace like their wood super dry 15% or at least under 20%  so I’ve been doing some research, let’s start with the kuuma which is what I’m running, Lampa posted a  video on YouTube back in the fall talking about firewood basics, in that video they specifically say that it’s important not to have your wood too dry because you’re drying out burnable BTUs all you want to dry out is the water content, Lampa likes to see moisture contents between 18%-28%  as stated in that video. the Caddy advanced according to their manual wants to see the same moisture content 18-28%, the heat commander wants to see moisture content between 15-20% Both the kuuma and the caddy seem high to me. I’d like to hear others input on this I’m also hoping Lampa sees the post and comments on it.


Water is not burnable.  Removing more water from the fuel doesn't remove potential BTUs plain and simple.   Now if an appliance is designed to work with higher moisture content wood it is possible that low mc could overwhelm the secondary combustion system in the beginning.  But that is a different issue


----------



## maple1 (Jan 23, 2022)

Drying out burnable BTUs? Not even sure what that means since water doesn't burn. Do you have a link?


----------



## Micdrew (Jan 23, 2022)

maple1 said:


> Drying out burnable BTUs? Not even sure what that means since water doesn't burn. Do you have a link?


----------



## Micdrew (Jan 23, 2022)

bholler said:


> Water is not burnable.  Removing more water from the fuel doesn't remove potential BTUs plain and simple.   Now if an appliance is designed to work with higher moisture content wood it is possible that low mc could overwhelm the secondary combustion system in the beginning.  But that is a different issue


I probably worded it wrong but I just posted the video


----------



## bholler (Jan 23, 2022)

Micdrew said:


>



Complete nonsense.  The fact that he said most manufacturers want below 10% shows he is full of it


----------



## bholler (Jan 23, 2022)

Micdrew said:


> I probably worded it wrong but I just posted the video


No you worded it correctly he is just full of it.  The end of the video says it all.  He says you can burn dryer wood you will just have to adjust for it so you don't overheat the furnace.   If you are removing most of the BTUs by "over drying" how would that cause the furnace to over heat?


----------



## Micdrew (Jan 23, 2022)

bholler said:


> No you worded it correctly he is just full of it


I think he was talking about older furnaces not the newer ones of today


----------



## ABMax24 (Jan 23, 2022)

I just lost a lot of respect for Lamppa Manufacturing with that video.

2/3 of the BTU comes from "combustible fluids" in the wood? Give me a break. Hemi-cellulose and lignins do make up almost 2/3 of wood, but you're not going to evaporate them away by drying the wood too long. With softwoods it's definitely possible to loose some of the more volatile lignins (aromatics) when drying, but it's still more beneficial to loose these compounds if water is evaporated from the wood at the same time.

Here's some much more accurate information:









						Wood Lesson 02 - [PDF Document]
					

Wood Combustion Basics Topics Wood Combustion Basics Wood Composition Combustion ProcessCombustion Process Moisture Content and Seasoning Q ti ?Questions ? Presented By:…




					vdocument.in


----------



## bholler (Jan 23, 2022)

Micdrew said:


> I think he was talking about older furnaces not the newer ones of today


It doesn't matter what he was talking about it was never the case.  And below 10% isn't even achievable by air drying in most of the USA.


----------



## maple1 (Jan 23, 2022)

Man that video was a real head scratcher. Was that really made by Kuuma? Seems so? Also made me lose some respect. No way you want up to 28% MC. And yes he really contradicted himself at the end - if you dried out all the heat why would the furnace overheat?

Also agree it is near impossible to get wood to air dry much or any below 15% where most of us live. 

He may have a small point, in that there may be something flammable in the wood that goes away over time? I made a thread on here last year about some real old stuff I was burning that seemed to be burning funny. As in, not as good as expected.


----------



## laynes69 (Jan 23, 2022)

Here is a screenshot from PSG's Caddy Advanced test.  While I think the moisture content is a little high even for testing, this shows that it's a more achievable moisture level. The higher moisture can probably be accomplished due to the computer controls, 28% is awfully high.


----------



## brenndatomu (Jan 23, 2022)

maple1 said:


> Was that really made by Kuuma? Seems so?


Yes, yes it was.
This whole "too dry" with the wood has been something that myself and @JRHAWK9  have been discussing for quite some time already (years) and while we have come to the conclusion (through individual testing) that even for a Kuuma furnace there is no "too dry"...wood much over 20% simply means less heat to the house (although the Kuuma will still do a nice job burning >20% wood)...so while I disagree with their "too dry" statement, I still have to respect Lamppa Mfg...this is the guy (Daryl, the owner, not Dale the GM in the video) that designed and built a revolutionary clean burning furnace before clean burning efficient wood furnaces were cool, and all done in an old building the size of a 3-4 car garage (until 3-4 years ago) aaand, on a shoestring budget! Kinda makes you think that the larger companies, some with multi million dollar budgets, (and some now out of business) were just resting on their laurels, rather than pushing the envelope for new innovation, heck, not even keeping up with the times in many cases!
Now, are there some things about my Kuuma that I don't prefer? Yes...but overall, there is nothing out there any better! So for me, I still have to have respect for Daryl Lamppa and the Kuuma line...even if he does have some strange things to say about wood MC...which I would love to sit down with him and discuss what he is talking about! (wouldn't be the first time that "common knowledge" has been proven wrong! If he could prove himself correct that is)
The only thing that I have been able to determine in my research is that there can be "too dry" for how a certain model stove/furnace is designed/tuned, but not "too dry" to where the wood will actually contain less BTU's (as long as the wood has not degraded...and the stove/furnace is "tuned" for the dryer wood)

I really like the way HeatMaster has things set up on their latest generation of G series OWB's...they are downdraft gassifiers with lambda and active air control on both the primary and secondary side...they also allow the consumer to tailor the air settings (to some degree) to the MC of the wood you are burning. (the typical OWB operator with green wood, vs the guy that actually has truly dry wood)
My dad bought one to replace an old school Central Boiler this past fall, and now they that they have a couple months experience with it, including a nice cold spell, the difference in how clean it burns, and the efficiency compared to the CB is remarkable...looks like wood consumption will be cut by at least 50%, possibly 60...not that the CB's were known for their efficiency, but to me that's still impressive! But I digress...I guess my point was that I think this is where things will go in the future for forced air wood furnaces too. (downdraft lambda control)


----------



## Micdrew (Jan 23, 2022)

brenndatomu said:


> Yes, yes it was.
> This whole "too dry" with the wood has been something that myself and @JRHAWK9  have been discussing for quite some time already (years) and while we have come to the conclusion (through individual testing) that even for a Kuuma furnace there is no "too dry"...wood much over 20% simply means less heat to the house (although the Kuuma will still do a nice job burning >20% wood)...so while I disagree with their "too dry" statement, I still have to respect Lamppa Mfg...this is the guy (Daryl, the owner, not Dale the GM in the video) that designed and built a revolutionary clean burning furnace before clean burning efficient wood furnaces were cool, and all done in an old building the size of a 3-4 car garage (until 3-4 years ago) aaand, on a shoestring budget! Kinda makes you think that the larger companies, some with multi million dollar budgets, (and some now out of business) were just resting on their laurels, rather than pushing the envelope for new innovation, heck, not even keeping up with the times in many cases!
> Now, are there some things about my Kuuma that I don't prefer? Yes...but overall, there is nothing out there any better! So for me, I still have to have respect for Daryl Lamppa and the Kuuma line...even if he does have some strange things to say about wood MC...which I would love to sit down with him and discuss what he is talking about! (wouldn't be the first time that "common knowledge" has been proven wrong! If he could prove himself correct that is)
> The only thing that I have been able to determine in my research is that there can be "too dry" for how a certain model stove/furnace is designed/tuned, but not "too dry" to where the wood will actually contain less BTU's (as long as the wood has not degraded...and the stove/furnace is "tuned" for the dryer wood)
> ...


Was waiting for you or @JRHAWK9 to chime in.


----------



## Micdrew (Jan 23, 2022)

I will say I’ve been burning 1-1/2 year old red oak that’s testing on a fresh split 19.6mc seems to be burning just fine no smoke and good heat output.


----------



## brenndatomu (Jan 23, 2022)

Micdrew said:


> Was waiting for you or @JRHAWK9 to chime in.


He'll be around sooner or later...seems to be AWOL today...but he is the dry wood master...and has the data/records to prove it!


----------



## brenndatomu (Jan 23, 2022)

Micdrew said:


> I will say I’ve been burning 1-1/2 year old red oak that’s testing on a fresh split 19.6mc seems to be burning just fine no smoke and good heat output.


Yeah, like I said, the Kuuma will still burn >20% wood just fine, but unless you really get hardcore with it, weighing the wood, taking moisture reading, keeping records, including heating degree days, you'll likely not notice that much difference between < and > 20% MC Kuuma chow...but when you start keeping records of things, it becomes apparent that the lower MC wood makes the house a lil warmer.


----------



## stoveliker (Jan 23, 2022)

ABMax24 said:


> I just lost a lot of respect for Lamppa Manufacturing with that video.
> 
> 2/3 of the BTU comes from "combustible fluids" in the wood? Give me a break. Hemi-cellulose and lignins do make up almost 2/3 of wood, but you're not going to evaporate them away by drying the wood too long. With softwoods it's definitely possible to loose some of the more volatile lignins (aromatics) when drying, but it's still more beneficial to loose these compounds if water is evaporated from the wood at the same time.
> 
> ...



That is one clear slide deck!

Good to see that my back of the envelope calc is similar to his:





						Steam coming from chimney
					

Hey everyone, I have what is obviously steam coming from my chimney on cold low humidity days. I haven’t measured moisture content of my splits recently but I do know they are about a year from perfect (MC had been 19-22%) Is this a sign of wet wood when running a cat stove? Or can this be...




					www.hearth.com


----------



## woodey (Jan 23, 2022)

brenndatomu said:


> I still have to respect Lamppa Mfg..





brenndatomu said:


> Yes...but overall, there is nothing out there any better


Couldn't agree more. If you know the history of this company and are familiar with the quality of their products and what they have achieved it's hard  to imagine anyone losing respect of them over one confusing video.


----------



## Micdrew (Jan 23, 2022)

brenndatomu said:


> He'll be around sooner or later...seems to be AWOL today...but he is the dry wood master...and has the data/records to prove it!


I hope he didn’t go to the packers game....


----------



## brenndatomu (Jan 23, 2022)

Micdrew said:


> I hope he didn’t go to the packers game....


That would be my guess...


----------



## JRHAWK9 (Jan 23, 2022)

I'm here, was just away for the weekend. 


Micdrew said:


> I hope he didn’t go to the packers game....





brenndatomu said:


> That would be my guess...



 yep........

Anyway, I'm burning 6.5 year old stuff now that measures anywhere from 12-18% or so.....from my stacks outside.

Before I left, I loaded 90lbs of 7-8 year old Black Locust that has been sitting down the basement for that last 3 years or so.  I stuck a meter in it for $hits and giggles after re-splitting a piece to make smaller pieces to stick in voids.  Anyway, that stuff was so damn hard I could hardly get the pins in, but it measured 8% on the face of the fresh split.

I have zero issues with dry wood.  Like mentioned before, in our climate, I will probably never see much under 12-15%.  Wood is hydroscopic, so it will reach an equilibrium moisture level at some point and then just continue to fluctuate with the atmospheric conditions.   

As far as the video goes, I saw that right after they uploaded it.  It didn't make sense to me either.  That's all I'm going to say about that, mainly because I just simply don't know enough about it.  I just know I don't have issues burning what I am burning and I am seeing better results vs when I was burning 20%+ the first and second winters.


----------



## sloeffle (Jan 24, 2022)

When I built custom furniture we were happy to see kild dried wood <10% moisture in the summer time. The shop I worked at the longest didn't have AC so that didn't help either. All through college we were told just because the tree is dead doesn't mean the wood is dead. As @JRHAWK9 said, wood is hydroscopic, it's going to lose and gain moisture throughout the various times of the year. That's why you see tables with bread board ends look so odd during the winter time, and that's why there are some doors that don't close in the summer but do in the winter.

If you are bored, there's a book by R. Bruce Hoadley will tell you more about wood then what you ever wanted to know. I was introduced to this book as part of my studies.


----------



## RockCastile (Jan 24, 2022)

Could the guy in the video be thinking (or misconstruing) something to do with extremely dry wood vaporizing so much more rapidly that it escapes without combustion? I think Mr. Gulland mentions something about that on woodheat.org (can't locate it at the moment) although he adds it's mostly a theoretical point as real world firewood rarely if ever gets so extremely dry.


----------



## bholler (Jan 24, 2022)

RockCastile said:


> Could the guy in the video be thinking (or misconstruing) something to do with extremely dry wood vaporizing so much more rapidly that it escapes without combustion? I think Mr. Gulland mentions something about that on woodheat.org (can't locate it at the moment) although he adds it's mostly a theoretical point as real world firewood rarely if ever gets so extremely dry.


Like I said initially.  If their furnaces are designed and tested to run on higher moisture content wood that's one thing and perfectly understandable.  But some of the stuff he said was just absurd.


----------



## andym (Jan 25, 2022)

There's no way my Heatmax 2 would satisfactorily burn wood at 28%. Last year my wood was 18-20% and was marginal. If the wood sizzles it's too wet. This year I've got wood in the 12-16% range. No sizzling, easier lighting, cleaner glass, much better experience. I never woulda believed the difference between 15 and 20% without seeing it myself. 
That said I am certain that a computer controlled furnace like the Kuuma or Heat Commander would handle more moisture.

2 morals to this story: Even the best are wrong at times, and Don't believe everything you see on Youtube!


----------



## laynes69 (Jan 25, 2022)

I'm not going to lie, the amish cut a crap ton of dead ash for the neighbor. I didn't confirm the moisture content, however the furnace kept a hot burning fire. I would have never had those results with the old furnace.


----------



## usernametaken (Jan 26, 2022)

That video makes no sense to me either. I guess the key to the story here is to know what works best for you based on  experience with your furnace/boiler. I don't have records kept like @JRHAWK9. My memory is good enough to know that I've had multiple years on my furnace now and the drier the wood, the better though. As I said on the other forum when discussing said video... my Max Caddy likes TP as much as the hoarders did during the start of the pandemic. However, it has no taste for combustible fluids at all... LOL. 

I am one of the rare folks who gets sub 10% readings too. My wood is all 2-3 years CSS but on top of that, and I do believe this is the key to my lower numbers, an entire season of wood is brought into my basement in the spring and lives there until fall when I start burning again. In the basement I have a dehumidifier running. Not for the wood but just on GP. I think that the wood continues to drop in this environment after having reached the previously mentioned equilibrium while drying outdoors.


----------



## lampmfg (Jan 26, 2022)

I am the person in the video from Kuuma talking about wood that most of you are talking about in this thread.  I speak with hundreds if not thousands each year.  It's easy to misspeak once in a while.  My use of the word moisture was not a good choice.  I should have used the term "compounds" in wood.  Moisture is usually used to mean water, and it was not my intent to speak only about water.  Wood contains water, cellulose, and numerous combustible carbon-based compounds.  Green wood (not yet cured) is often between 60% and 120% water (as provided by the University of Tennessee Agriculture Extension Service).  But this varies significantly by wood species.

Daryl Lamppa (owner and designer of the Kuuma Vapor-Fire furnaces) is the most knowledgeable person I know when it comes to wood-burning.  He's been researching and testing wood appliances for over 50 years.  Daryl has several books that are, sort of, required reading before you start talking with customers about his Vapor-Fire furnaces.  I will provide the sources (in the near future) I was referencing in the video.  Daryl has these books at his home but will bring them in so I can share them with everyone.

 I am pleased to see that so many of you have a passion for the technology involved in effectively utilizing wood as an energy source.  Additional sources you may want to research are anything you can find talking about Pyrolysis of wood or materials covering the production of Bio-Char, as this process is also related to burning wood.  

Sincerely,

Dale Horihan


----------



## LogCabinFever (Jan 26, 2022)

I can confirm that the drier the better. I’ve found that wetter wood will burn longer but BTUs are nowhere near bone dry wood. I also bring in at least three weeks of wood at a time in the basement and the furnace dries it out quite a bit. My seasoned wood is only a year old and yet I’d bet that after sitting in the basement, it’ll be below 10% MC on a fresh split, especially on the ash. I’ll take some readings just for fun


----------



## bholler (Jan 26, 2022)

lampmfg said:


> 120% water


Really.  How would wood be 120% water.   So can you tell us what moisture content you recommend?


----------



## usernametaken (Jan 26, 2022)

I was wondering that too??


----------



## stoveliker (Jan 26, 2022)

That means more than half


bholler said:


> Really.  How would wood be 120% water.   So can you tell us what moisture content you recommend?


That is based on "dry basis", i.e. (weight wet - weight dry)/(weight dry).

If you have more than 1 lbs water per 1 lbs wood, that "dry basis" calculation will give you more than 100%, e.g. the 120% noted there.

100 % dry basis is the same as 50% wet basis (i.e. half the weight is water).


----------



## bholler (Jan 26, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> That means more than half
> 
> That is based on "dry basis", i.e. (weight wet - weight dry)/(weight dry).
> 
> ...


Ok but he said the wood was between 60% and 120% water.


----------



## stoveliker (Jan 26, 2022)

bholler said:


> Ok but he said the wood was between 60% and 120% water.


Yes, and the thing that should have been added was "dry basis". Meaning that its total weight was 30-60% consisting of water for the numbers you quote.


----------



## usernametaken (Jan 26, 2022)

So, like "Relative Humidity"


----------



## LogCabinFever (Jan 27, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> That means more than half
> 
> That is based on "dry basis", i.e. (weight wet - weight dry)/(weight dry).
> 
> ...


So with that formula, your wet weight would need to be more than twice the dry weight. Not sure that seems plausible.

For example:
Say,
Wet weight= 200#
Dry weight = 100#
Dry basis = (200-100)/(100) = 1.00 = 100%

So at 120% dry basis, the bone dry wood at 100#, full green saturation would be 220#.

I know green wood is a decent amount heavier than dry wood obviously, but that seems really high, like waterlogged.


----------



## stoveliker (Jan 27, 2022)

LogCabinFever said:


> So with that formula, your wet weight would need to be more than twice the dry weight. Not sure that seems plausible.
> 
> For example:
> Say,
> ...



You are correct. I have not seen that either. (Though I don't weigh my wood.)


----------



## yooperdave (Jan 27, 2022)

Not so hard to understand

120% of a 15lb chunk of wood is 18.  This means, at worst conditions, that chunk of wood weighed 33 lbs.

As I process wood and find those really heavy pieces, I'll just split them and let them sit for a few years.  Oak is a good example of this.  It takes years for it to dry.  I stated this previously in another post using slab wood as an example.  After one year of dry time, no good for burning,  Same for 2nd year, but noticeably better.  3rd year could burn with door closed (epa stove) but not good enough.  4th and 5th years, Now you're talking!  Works the way it should!

There was one piece of red oak I remember specifically.  It was all I could do to get it into the truck even after I had split it as well as I could with a maul.

2 years later when I loaded it into the OWB at below zero temps, I was amazed at how much strength I had gained!

As @lampmfg has stated in his post above, University of Tennessee provided the numbers.

And on a footnote, Daryl Lampaa  has over 50 years of testing and researching wood appliances....not including his years of wood burning.  That's a lot longer than many have even been alive!


----------



## usernametaken (Jan 27, 2022)

Dave, I don't think anyone is doubting his knowledge. I think folks have just had a different experience than what their video states.


----------



## bholler (Jan 27, 2022)

yooperdave said:


> Not so hard to understand
> 
> 120% of a 15lb chunk of wood is 18.  This means, at worst conditions, that chunk of wood weighed 33 lbs.
> 
> ...


Respectfully I don't really care how much experience the owner of the company has in this case.  The person who made the video (apparently acting as a spokesperson for lampaa mfg.)  Said some things that were just wrong.  Then said things again here that were worded completely wrong.  His numbers may be correct.  But the way he said it made the statement impossible.  Wood cannot be 120% water as he stated.  It can be 120% on the dryness scale.


----------



## yooperdave (Jan 28, 2022)

bholler said:


> *Respectfully I don't really care how much experience the owner of the company has in this case. *





Yeah, I and all the other members reading this gathered that....


So your beef boils down to the improper use of the english language?  OK, I understand.

As you age and mellow (hopefully 😇 ) you find yourself listening and that's when the learning will begin all over.  All of this is respectfully also.  

But man holler,  isn't there a way to get your points across without being so harsh?   Just sayin.......


----------



## bholler (Jan 28, 2022)

yooperdave said:


> Yeah, I and all the other members reading this gathered that....
> 
> 
> So your beef boils down to the improper use of the english language?  OK, I understand.
> ...


I am sorry if it offends you.  But when a person who is acting as a spokesperson for a company says things that are flat out incorrect it reflects very poorly upon that company.  Saying wood that is dried over a year is going to be to dry to burn is wrong no matter how you look at it.   Saying many other companies require wood to be below 10% is wrong.  Saying wood can be 120% water is wrong.   

If someone has that much trouble using the English language properly maybe they shouldn't be in the position to act as a spokesperson.


If the person making the statements was infact the owner of the company with all that experience then absolutely I would care about that experience.   Just as if the person had presented the numbers from the university of Tennessee in the proper way I would absolutely respect those numbers.  But that is not the case.


----------



## yooperdave (Jan 29, 2022)

bholler said:


> I am sorry if it offends you.  But when a person who is acting as a spokesperson for a company says things that are flat out incorrect it reflects very poorly upon that company.  Saying wood that is dried over a year is going to be to dry to burn is wrong no matter how you look at it.   Saying many other companies require wood to be below 10% is wrong.  Saying wood can be 120% water is wrong.
> 
> If someone has that much trouble using the English language properly maybe they shouldn't be in the position to act as a spokesperson.
> 
> ...


----------



## LogCabinFever (Jan 29, 2022)

What’s interesting is that both the Heat Commander and Caddy Advanced manuals say that 15-20% MC is ideal for the furnace which is very practical for 1-2 yr seasoned hardwood in NE (that I’ve found). 

Also I tested a few fresh splits and I find that I’m in the 12-14% MC range for 1yr seasoned hardwood and my old Jensen loves it. That’s after 2-3 weeks of being inside and the furnace helping drying it out. The furnace has probably never seen wood below 10% MC as I don’t usually season beyond 2yrs. I could probably get more BTUs out of it at 3-4yrs but I don’t think it would be worth making room for more wood. I usually replace what I burned in the woodshed each year. Whatever wasn’t burned makes it to the next season (2yrs). Not sure how I would go about storing wood for 3-4 yrs. Guys that do that must have multiple woodsheds. 

Seems like the EPA furnaces accommodate a more practical seasoning period but I can’t imagine 28% MC being ideal at all.


----------



## lampmfg (Jan 29, 2022)

bholler said:


> I am sorry if it offends you.  But when a person who is acting as a spokesperson for a company says things that are flat out incorrect it reflects very poorly upon that company.  Saying wood that is dried over a year is going to be to dry to burn is wrong no matter how you look at it.   Saying many other companies require wood to be below 10% is wrong.  Saying wood can be 120% water is wrong.
> 
> If someone has that much trouble using the English language properly maybe they shouldn't be in the position to act as a spokesperson.
> 
> ...



Ok, Holler, I’ve been biting my tongue but have heard enough of your tone. If Dale representing my company spoke incorrectly, I apologize.  With limited resources, I typically shoot our videos on a whim with no editing. Our marketplace competitors are probably at least 10x bigger with a lot more resources.  We try our best to get accurate information to our customers and usually do a very good job. If you aren’t going to give the benefit of the doubt to a long-time member and sponsor, I guess I don’t know what to say. Especially when they have developed the cleanest burning and most efficient indoor wood furnace on the market (out of a small creamery) here in the US with a patented gasification design. https://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=10,823,424&OS=10,823,424&RS=10,823,424

I can assure you that Dale is very knowledgeable about wood burning. I listen to him nearly all day, walk people through installs and explain optimal furnace operation. Our customers appreciate his thoughtfulness and patience. He gives almost every single one of them his personal cell phone to use at any time.

I would’ve been more worried about him responding to this, but a family member of his was in a snowmobiling accident, and he had to miss some work, so this isn’t a priority. Unfortunately, I didn’t think I would need to come on here to address this ASAP, but you keep making it sound like we are idiots.

I'm sure we will follow up sometime next week. Until then, we would appreciate the benefit of the doubt, or at least try to be respectful!


----------



## brenndatomu (Jan 29, 2022)

lampmfg said:


> we would appreciate the benefit of the doubt, or at least try to be respectful!


X2...and not just in this thread. The condescending tone in almost every post gets old...fast.


----------



## woodey (Jan 29, 2022)

woodey said:


> Couldn't agree more. If you know the history of this company and are familiar with the quality of their products and what they have achieved it's hard  to imagine anyone losing respect of them over one confusing video.


As I posted last week.^^^^


----------



## bholler (Jan 29, 2022)

To be clear I absolutely have allot of respect for your company your products and what you have done.   I never said I lost respect for your company just that it reflects upon the company poorly when incorrect information is put out in your name.   

I don't doubt he is very knowledgeable as I am sure you are. (Much more than me infact)  But incorrect info is still incorrect info and I felt it should be corrected.  Do you not agree?

I will admit my post saying maybe he shouldn't be in a position as a spokesperson was a bit disrespectful and for that I apologize.  But I will not apologize for calling out incorrect information.


----------



## yooperdave (Jan 31, 2022)

The owner of Lampaa stoves has been using his vapor fire for almost 50 years exactly!  I'll say it again, longer than most have been alive and longer than even more have been burning or working! The longest he has seasoned his firewood is two years.

Must know something, no?  He firebox is the older smaller version (16" length pieces as opposed to 20-21") and the most per year he has burned is 5 cord during a unusually cold year.  Otherwise, it's average of 4 cord.   And not creosote buildup.  

Very easy people to speak with.  We should all be that way.


----------



## brenndatomu (Jan 31, 2022)

yooperdave said:


> The owner of Lampaa stoves has been using his vapor fire for almost 50 years exactly!  I'll say it again, longer than most have been alive and longer than even more have been burning or working! The longest he has seasoned his firewood is two years.
> 
> Must know something, no?  He firebox is the older smaller version (16" length pieces as opposed to 20-21") and the most per year he has burned is 5 cord during a unusually cold year.  Otherwise, it's average of 4 cord.   And not creosote buildup.
> 
> Very easy people to speak with.  We should all be that way.


What's even more impressive is he says he has never, not once, cleaned his chimney...regular inspection only...nothing to clean.
A clip from their website:





And as far as using 4 cords on average per year to heat...that's pretty good considering they are ~15 miles from Canada and considered one of the colder spots in the USA...set a few records IIRC.


----------



## yooperdave (Jan 31, 2022)

brenndatomu said:


> What's even more impressive is he says he has never, not once, cleaned his chimney...regular inspection only...nothing to clean.
> A clip from their website:
> View attachment 291262
> 
> And as far as using 4 cords on average per year to heat...that's pretty good considering they are ~15 miles from Canada and considered one of the colder spots in the USA...set a few records IIRC.





You know, its looking better all the time!


----------



## lampmfg (Feb 4, 2022)

I said I would share the reference materials we often refer to here at Lamppa Manufacturing (Kuuma).  Perhaps the most informative book is "The Woodburners Encyclopedia" by Jay Shelton.  This is an older book, originally published in 1976 with 8 additional printings.  It is a wealth of wood burning information, but better than that, it puts it into "numbers.".  Daryl Lamppa and his father Herb (a math instructor) repeatedly said that burning wood efficiently is all about the numbers.  We strongly recommend you download or purchase a copy of this book if you are into wood burning.

An additional question that was asked on the forum was, "why does Kuuma suggest a wood moisture content between 18 and 28%?  The reason is that this is the range that the EPA's NSPS Phase 2 emission mandate says your furnace must be able to operate and emit below the emission levels spelled out in the standard.  If your furnace can not operate with wood in this moisture range – your furnace can not be certified to phase 2.

Personally, I prefer wood that is between 20% - 24%.  We don't have great hardwood here in northern Minnesota like much of the U.S., so we normally burn birch.  In previous years when our firewood was around 20%-22% moisture, we would consistently see between 12 – 14 hour burn times in a Vapor-Fire 100 with birch.  This year we let our wood get way too dry.  With this really dry wood, we are only getting around 7 hours of burn time with the exact same Vapor-Fire 100 furnace – again with birch.  The dryer the wood (and hence, the lighter the wood), the less available Btu content in the wood.  Primarily the wood has lost significant amounts of the combustible carbon compounds either through evaporation or through some deterioration of combustibility of these compounds over time.

We still find that "green or living wood" that is cut, split, and cured outdoors for 9 – 12 months is generally at a pretty good moisture to provide good heat.  Of course, this will vary by species of wood and the climate conditions of your location.

Dale 

We are open to continued dialogue about this moving forward but would appreciate it being respectful.  Both Dale and my Dad (Daryl Lamppa) don't use the internet for this kind of stuff, so it involves printing out and me scribing responses.  It will always take us a while to respond.  There will also be a lull between our response and comments added after.  Dale was doing this off last week, and I know there have been other comments since then.  It's also much easier to discuss stuff over the phone so feel free to call.  I can tell that winter is in full swing throughout the rest of the country because it has been a crazy week for furnace questions, installations, and orders.     

Thanks,

Garrett


----------



## Micdrew (Feb 4, 2022)

lampmfg said:


> I said I would share the reference materials we often refer to here at Lamppa Manufacturing (Kuuma).  Perhaps the most informative book is "The Woodburners Encyclopedia" by Jay Shelton.  This is an older book, originally published in 1976 with 8 additional printings.  It is a wealth of wood burning information, but better than that, it puts it into "numbers.".  Daryl Lamppa and his father Herb (a math instructor) repeatedly said that burning wood efficiently is all about the numbers.  We strongly recommend you download or purchase a copy of this book if you are into wood burning.
> 
> An additional question that was asked on the forum was, "why does Kuuma suggest a wood moisture content between 18 and 28%?  The reason is that this is the range that the EPA's NSPS Phase 2 emission mandate says your furnace must be able to operate and emit below the emission levels spelled out in the standard.  If your furnace can not operate with wood in this moisture range – your furnace can not be certified to phase 2.
> 
> ...


Thanks for responding Garrett, when I originally posted this I didn’t think it was going to cause such an uproar  I was just wanting to start a conversation on the subject, it was not my intention to drag the Lampa name through the mud as I am a proud owner of the VF100 and couldn’t be happier with it.


----------



## usernametaken (Feb 4, 2022)

What I don't understand is other Kuuma owners not having the same experience with wetter wood having more BTU output than dryer wood. I don't own a Kuuma product but my PSG product absolutely doesn't work that way either.  A person or company can quote all the literature in the world but if it doesn't match real world experience.... hmmm.....


----------



## lampmfg (Feb 5, 2022)

usernametaken said:


> What I don't understand is other Kuuma owners not having the same experience with wetter wood having more BTU output than dryer wood. I don't own a Kuuma product but my PSG product absolutely doesn't work that way either.  A person or company can quote all the literature in the world but if it doesn't match real world experience.... hmmm.....


I'm not even sure how do reply to this? There are a ton of variables when it comes to burning wood.  That's why our testing results speak for themselves especially when we were held to a more stringent standard. 

The above comment just said he couldn't be happier with his furnace.  There are plenty of threads and feedback on this forum about real word experience from very knowledgeable and experienced users.


----------



## stoveliker (Feb 5, 2022)

@lampmfg 

Have there been studies that you know of that have used e.g. mass spectrometry to analyze the gases that (you claim) are getting out of the wood during drying? And have those been analyzed in terms of the BTUs they would have provided (if they still would be in the wood when burning time comes around)?

You stated that drier wood has less BTUs.
I wonder how much that actually is, and how that compares to the large quantity of BTUs needed to boil off the water in wetter wood. That is a balance you claim is more beneficial for wetter wood, and I assume you have seen the studies that determined that.


----------



## lampmfg (Feb 5, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> @lampmfg
> 
> Have there been studies that you know of that have used e.g. mass spectrometry to analyze the gases that (you claim) are getting out of the wood during drying? And have those been analyzed in terms of the BTUs they would have provided (if they still would be in the wood when burning time comes around)?
> 
> ...


I'm not aware of any studies.  We have designed and operated the VF100 for 40+ years on a shoestring budget, with test results showing it's the cleanest and most efficient.  There are also plenty of  users on here who have one and share their own experiences.   We definitely don't have access to dedicated testing facility onsite like our large corporate competitors.  If you're ever in the area, stop by and see what we used to test and develop. I would also love to show you the quality used to make one right in Tower, MN.


----------



## stoveliker (Feb 5, 2022)

lampmfg said:


> I'm not aware of any studies.  We have designed and operated the VF100 for 40+ years on a shoestring budget, with test results showing it's the cleanest and most efficient.  There are also plenty of  users on here who have one and share their own experiences.   We definitely don't have access to dedicated testing facility onsite like our large corporate competitors.  If you're ever in the area, stop by and see what we used to test and develop. I would also love to show you the quality used to make one right in Tower, MN.
> 
> View attachment 291544



I have no doubt about the quality. From what I read many companies will be jealous of your customers as they are so much praising your products.

 I have no doubt about the experiences of folks here. I am only wanting to understand how a bit of gas escaping wood (if not otherwise consumed by e.g. fungi) would be a bigger loss than the BTUs needed to boil off e.g. 10 pct in weight of water (from 15 to 25 pct). 

I do understand and respect that the experiment (the experience) beats any theory. I.e. if your data and that of your customers show this, it's a fact.
It's just in my genes to want to know "how, why". 

I'd be glad to stop by - but other than the airport in Minneapolis I have not much opportunity to visit MN.  Thank you for the invitation though!


----------



## usernametaken (Feb 5, 2022)

lampmfg said:


> I'm not even sure how do reply to this? There are a ton of variables when it comes to burning wood.  That's why our testing results speak for themselves especially when we were held to a more stringent standard.
> 
> The above comment just said he couldn't be happier with his furnace.  There are plenty of threads and feedback on this forum about real word experience from very knowledgeable and experienced users.


You're awfully defensive. People can ponder your counterintuitive statements in videos or say they have different personal experiences and none of that needs to be construed as an attack on you or your company. So my advice would be to calm down, grow a bit thicker skin and engage in a dialog instead of mounting a defense... No one is saying you don't make a great product. Heck, if you had one big enough to handle my needs, I might well have gone that route after reading so many wonderful reviews. (Although the lack of a glass door would have probably been a pretty big factor in my decision.) In my view I don't think anyone here was disparaging your products in any way. What folks were commenting on was a poorly done video that contradicts the real world experiences of  many.


----------



## yooperdave (Mar 1, 2022)

OK.  Here is a stove manufacturers recommendation for moisture content.  Interesting, no?

Have we all been brainwashed into "the drier the better" firewood approach because of the stove we have been burning that we are wearing blinders and not able to see that there are processes out there that are effective also?

Check out the "wood moisture content" info on pages 1 and 2.  No pictures but it's a short read!  



			https://greenftechn.com/downloads/WoodGunManual.pdf


----------



## brenndatomu (Mar 1, 2022)

yooperdave said:


> OK.  Here is a stove manufacturers recommendation for moisture content.  Interesting, no?
> 
> Have we all been brainwashed into "the drier the better" firewood approach because of the stove we have been burning that we are wearing blinders and not able to see that there are processes out there that are effective also?
> 
> ...


If you like that, read from the bottom of page 25 onto page 26!


----------



## bholler (Mar 1, 2022)

yooperdave said:


> OK.  Here is a stove manufacturers recommendation for moisture content.  Interesting, no?
> 
> Have we all been brainwashed into "the drier the better" firewood approach because of the stove we have been burning that we are wearing blinders and not able to see that there are processes out there that are effective also?
> 
> ...


Ok so a bit wetter wood works better in a gasifier because they can't handle the rapid off gassing from drier wood.  

That doesn't mean wood is loosing BTU content with the moisture.  Or that drier wood isn't better in every other type of wood burning appliance.  

Again the issues I and others had was mainly with the delivery of the info


----------



## JRHAWK9 (Mar 1, 2022)

brenndatomu said:


> If you like that, read from the bottom of page 25 onto page 26!









Are you gonna be the first one to run a water spray kit in the firebox of your VF100?


----------



## sloeffle (Mar 1, 2022)

If the appliace is controlled via a computer ( O2 sensory or thermocouple ), shouldn't it be able to compensate some for very dry or even wood that is a little marginal ?

https://heatmasterss.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/G-Series-Manual-2021-November-Update-1.pdf  - page 33

My manually controlled Caddy falls on it face with >20% moisture wood.


----------



## brenndatomu (Mar 1, 2022)

sloeffle said:


> If the appliace is controlled via a computer ( O2 sensory or thermocouple ), shouldn't it be able to compensate some for very dry or even wood that is a little marginal ?
> 
> https://heatmasterss.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/G-Series-Manual-2021-November-Update-1.pdf  - page 33
> 
> My manually controlled Caddy falls on it face with >20% moisture wood.


Yeah, but only within the programmed limits...that's why they talk about tuning specs on page 33


----------



## brenndatomu (Mar 1, 2022)

JRHAWK9 said:


> View attachment 292894
> 
> 
> View attachment 292895
> ...


I might hafta...I don't think I have any wood in the recommended 18-28% range!


----------



## stoveliker (Mar 1, 2022)

The point still is that more moist wood wastes more energy by having to evaporate the water.

And thus that secondary air (as they mention would be useful for drier wood) is a better system to burn - because it can burn drier wood, meaning that it can burn fuel where less BTUs are wasted in pumping the water out of the chimney.

So, we've not been biased by the stove we are burning, we have just seen a better system out there that is able to run on better fuel, leading to more efficiency (less wood cutting and less pollution).

I mean, seriously, "we can't control the better fuel so let's make it worse (water spray) because it then works better in our system that is not as efficient"??


----------



## yooperdave (Mar 1, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> The point still is that more moist wood wastes more energy by having to evaporate the water.
> 
> And thus that secondary air (as they mention would be useful for drier wood) is a better system to burn - because it can burn drier wood, meaning that it can burn fuel where less BTUs are wasted in pumping the water out of the chimney.
> 
> ...




Well then, I wonder just why  the manufacturers won't  use the dry wood?  Wouldn't this increase their efficiency ratings?

Yeah....


----------



## yooperdave (Mar 1, 2022)

bholler said:


> Ok so a bit wetter wood works better in a gasifier* because they can't handle the rapid off gassing from drier wood. *
> 
> That doesn't mean wood is loosing BTU content with the moisture.  Or that drier wood isn't better in every other type of wood burning appliance.
> 
> Again the issues I and others had was mainly with the delivery of the info




Not entirely true.

There are a number of members here who are completely satisfied with burning the drier wood in their appliances that call for a "non-traditional MC".


----------



## sloeffle (Mar 1, 2022)

brenndatomu said:


> Yeah, but only within the programmed limits...that's why they talk about tuning specs on page 33


Correct, for that specific boilder. 

I wonder if there are boilers / furnaces, etc out there that don't need any manual intervention. From the Kuuma video the OP linked it sounds like the Kuuma can deal w/ various levels of moisture without any human intervention needed.


----------



## stoveliker (Mar 1, 2022)

yooperdave said:


> Well then, I wonder just why  the manufacturers won't  use the dry wood?  Wouldn't this increase their efficiency ratings?
> 
> Yeah....


because many have not updated their system to be able to handle drier wood.

See, from the pdf you posted:




	

		
			
		

		
	
\

This begs the question of why one would make a water spray system to be able to burn better fuel rather than add such a secondary air system to be able to burn that better fuel without wasting BTUs in pumping out the water.

This vendor apparently does have a secondary air option. I.e. the technology exists (not surprisingly).  Hence I'm slackjawed by the "add a water spray or use crappy fuel" advice.


----------



## brenndatomu (Mar 1, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> This vendor apparently does have a secondary air option. I.e. the technology exists (not surprisingly). Hence I'm slackjawed by the "add a water spray or use crappy fuel" advice.


Did you notice that the spray system was for burning sawdust? Might be other issues beyond "its just too dry"...


----------



## stoveliker (Mar 1, 2022)

brenndatomu said:


> Did you notice that the spray system was for burning sawdust? Might be other issues beyond "its just too dry"...


that is not how I read it. It was *also* for sawdust.






Very dry wood -> back puffing (b/c gasification too fast) -> Sawdust less of a problem than ... logs (!).
Secondary air option. But "In rare cases it may be necessary to add moisture to the fuel".

To me that does not indicate the spray is only for sawdust. Very dry logs are a bigger problem. Secondary air helps. But in (rare) cases water spray may be needed.


----------



## brenndatomu (Mar 1, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> that is not how I read it. It was *also* for sawdust.
> 
> View attachment 292901
> 
> ...


The first line...

"A water spray kit is available for all commercial
Wood Gun systems and is normally
recommended if you are burning kiln dried
sawdust or shavings"


----------



## bholler (Mar 1, 2022)

yooperdave said:


> Not entirely true.
> 
> There are a number of members here who are completely satisfied with burning the drier wood in their appliances that call for a "non-traditional MC".


Ok I am confused what you are saying here.  I say dry wood is better and I am told I am wrong here.  Then you provided a link saying wetter wood was better for gasifiers and I said ok that may be true for that type of appliance.  And I am still wrong??


----------



## LogCabinFever (Mar 1, 2022)

this is getting weird. Bottom line, drier = more BTUs. Period. However, according to the wood gun document, the driest fuel burns with less control and with a few downsides. Though both Wood Gun and Kuuma both recommend the same moisture content, it is for entirely different reasons. One says it’s for more BTUs, the other for more controllable burn and less “backpuffing”.

I could see the argument for wetter wood burning more controllably, but I would think the trade-off to sacrifice BTUs would not be worth it, especially if we are spraying wood!


----------



## woodey (Mar 1, 2022)

Fortunately the Kuuma doesn’t require that you have a garden hose close by for safe burning. I would state that my Kuuma loves dry wood (stacked/ covered 3 years) but that would be repetitive to what others have already said, so I won’t mention it.


----------



## JRHAWK9 (Mar 1, 2022)

woodey said:


> Fortunately the Kuuma doesn’t require that you have a garden hose close by for safe burning.





You mean the holes on the front of the furnace which connect to "sprinkler like" tubes on the inside aren't for watering down the wood??  Crap, I better put my hose away then.


----------



## yooperdave (Mar 1, 2022)

Let me try this again.  Had no intentions to confuse @bholler !

We have been hearing that dry wood is better, right?  

And with the systems (appliances) that "we" have used for decades, this has proven true, right?

And manufacturers recommend the lower MC in use of their appliances in order to reach the optimum efficiency, right?

And those manufacturers all had to undergo epa testing to get their certifications and ratings, right?

And said testing is under controlled conditions with controlled MC fuels, controlled draft, etc. ...right?

Well, now here we are with a couple of manufacturers that say they have designed appliances that will efficiently burn firewood with higher MC than what we are used to and burn it safely, cleanly and efficiently.

Don't you think that those same manufacturers would get an even higher efficiency rating from the epa if they used the lower MC firewood?  It would only be to their advantage to require fuel with MC of ....14% (?) instead of 20%-30%.

There must be a reason why they want the higher MC fuels........


----------



## bholler (Mar 1, 2022)

yooperdave said:


> Let me try this again.  Had no intentions to confuse @bholler !
> 
> We have been hearing that dry wood is better, right?
> 
> ...


Because their designs can't handle the initial rapid off gassing from dry wood.  That is the reason.  The link you provided clearly said that.  If they can't handle that off gassing they won't pass the emissions testing and can't be sold.   It isn't anything complicated at all really.  The are using that moisture to slow off gassing in the initial phases so their system is not overwhelmed.

But again drying wood absolutely does not reduce BTU content.


----------



## maple1 (Mar 2, 2022)

Air requirements vary greatly for widely differing moisture contents. And most wood burning appliances are not designed to vary the air supply (not just amount, but primary/secondary balance) as widely as the m/c of the fuel they might see. The main exception would be Lambda controlled gasifiers. That use an O2 sensor in the exhaust stream to control air supply and primary/secondary balance. Manufacturers could design for very dry wood, but kind of pointless when most users won't feed it that.


----------



## stoveliker (Mar 2, 2022)

Well, that change in attitude ("when most users won't feed it very dry wood") may be part of the thing that is needed. In stoves that has been worked at by newer EPA standards that lead to design changes that lead to users being forced to use dry wood in order to get the performance they want.


----------



## laynes69 (Mar 2, 2022)

I think going from cribwood to cordwood was the right move for testing. The EPA site recommends wood at least 6 months seasoned and 20% and under for optimal burning. Using cordwood gives you a more realistic expectations on use. However, drier wood is obviously better. Having an automated furnace, I've burned fresh cut dead ash at 23 percent moisture without a hitch. I've also burned 15 percent ash without a hitch. Having an automated unit, the servos adjust based on firebox temperatures for a clean burn. Dry wood just means that the firebox gets hotter quicker and computer closes the dampers sooner. I've burned wood I never could've burned in the old unit thanks to the self regulation.


----------



## salecker (Mar 2, 2022)

Types of wood make a difference as well
Econoburns are designed in the east,where hardwood rules
All i have to burn is spruce.Dry spruce off gasses way quicker than hardwood.I was told my splits should be the size of a playing card.Over the years my splits have gotten bigger and that has slowed down the back puffing at times,brought down my flue temps.Additional modifications have continued to bring down flue temps and very rarely do i get back puffing.Right after loading i get the highest fuel temps and back puffing if it happens.Now anything under 10" does not get split.
If i get a piece of bad wood or high moisture content i can tell right away the next time i reload.Storage temps will be lower than normal and the wet wood will still be there at the next reload.


----------

