# Insert in a Prefab fireplace - help needed on options



## DSK (Feb 16, 2013)

Last year I had a Napoleon wood stove insert installed.  I built out the hearth following all the install instructions.  My installer insured me it was OK to put the insert into a Majestic pre-fab fireplace.  I had done some research and expressed concern, but he said that the prefab was built to handle direct fires and now the fire is contained, so there is no problem.

I've read all the threads and now know that this should not have been done.  So I am at a crossroads with how to fix it.

Given my investment in the Insert, decorative surround and the stonework I did on the interior, I would very much like to re-use the insert and not destroy the stone. 

Is it possible to pull out the insert, remove the fireplace from the outside....and then replace the fireplace/chimney with something that is safe to install the insert into?  Is there anything made for this scenario?  I've seen the cement firebox kits that can be assembled. Am I at a point where I need to rip off everything on the outside and rebuild a mason chimney? 

I've done a lot of work on my past three houses and laid a little bit of block.  Is this something I should consider taking on myself?

I know that is a lot of questions, but I am looking to develop options quickly.

Thanks for any advice.


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## mellow (Feb 16, 2013)

Some napoleons are zc rated,  which one do you have?


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## webby3650 (Feb 16, 2013)

The insert might be OK in the pre-fab, what is it? Does it have SS liner connected to it?

If you want to rip it out and start over, a masonry fireplace/chimney isn't the answer. Either put in a freestanding woodstove, or a high efficiency fireplace.
Can you post a picture of your set-up?


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## begreen (Feb 16, 2013)

I don't follow the concern that this is not a proper installation either. Both the 1101 and 1402 inserts are factory fireplace approved.

from the manual:
The following installation requirements must be observed when installing solid fuel burning inserts into factory built fireplaces.
A. The factory built fireplace must be listed per UL 127 or ULC S610.
B. Clearances to any combustible material surrounding this insert as identified must be followed. These
clearance requirements supersede any pre-existing facing material clearances listed for the factory
built fireplace.
C. Installation must include a full height listed chimney liner meeting HT requirements (2100°F) as required
in UL 1777 (U.S.) or ULC S635 (Canada). The liner must be securely attached to the insert flue
collar and the chimney top.
D. Means must be provided to prevent room air passage to the chimney cavity of the fireplace. This may
be accomplished by sealing the damper area around the chimney liner, or sealing the appliance front.
E. The air flow within and around the appliance shall not be altered by the installation of the insert (i.e.
no louvres or cooling air inlet or outlet ports are blocked), unless specifically tested as such for each
factory built fi replace manufacturer and model line. NOTE: Using a louvered face plate (surround)
complies with this requirement.
F. Alteration of the appliance in any manner is not permitted with the following exceptions;
a. External trim pieces which do not affect the operation of the appliance may be removed providing
they can be stored on or within the fireplace for reassembly if the insert is removed.
b. The chimney damper may be removed to install the chimney liner.
G. Circulating air chambers (i.e. in a steel fireplace liner or metal heat circulator) shall not be blocked.
H. Means must be provided for removal of the insert to clean the chimney flue.
I. Inserts that project in front of the fireplace must be supplied with appropriate support means.
J. A permanent metal warning label must be attached to the back of the fireplace stating that the fireplace
must be restored to its original condition for safe use without the insert.

---


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## DSK (Feb 17, 2013)

Sorry for the delay.  I have a 1402.  I read all the same info from the manual and that is why I was OK with the install. 

The prefab is a Majestic, circa 1980.  It does have a 6" stainless liner connected to it. 

I guess I am down to 2 concerns at this point.
1.) During the install, the installer cut into a small portion of the inner firebox in the prefab to get the clearance to hook up the stainless liner.
2.) We installed the decorative trim around the outside of the insert.  During the install, louvered trims were removed from the prefab fireplace.  They appeared to be more decorative than functional, but I didn't know much when I was looking at it.

Is there anything else I can do to increase the safety of this install.  The chimney sweep I had here spooked me - he said he wouldn't even touch it since he would then be involved in the chain of custody should something happen.

Thanks for all the insight so far.


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## DSK (Feb 17, 2013)

6" liner is connected to the insert that is,


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## webby3650 (Feb 17, 2013)

Well, the louvers are more than just for looks. They allow air to circulate around the firebox. They help keep firebox cool, they aren't supposed to be covered. You also aren't allowed to remove any part of the fireplace except, screens, doors, and the smoke guard, etc.. What did the installer remove?


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## DSK (Feb 17, 2013)

He removed a louvered panel on each side of the prefab firebox.


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## webby3650 (Feb 17, 2013)

Did he leave the firebrick in place?


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## DSK (Feb 17, 2013)

My house was built ~1980 with a Majestic firebox, model ESF - IIA. It has listings for ICBO (RR1581) BOCA(RR75-39) and SBCC(7313)


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## DSK (Feb 17, 2013)

There was no firebrick in this model


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## webby3650 (Feb 17, 2013)

It didn't have pre-cast refractory panels in it?


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## DSK (Feb 17, 2013)

None that I saw.  There was a metal plate in the back set off from the back of the box.  It wasn't brick, but could that be it?


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## DSK (Feb 17, 2013)

I'm attaching the front page from the user manual I found for the Majestic.   You can see the louvered parts on either side of the firebox.  The firebox had a heat exchanger in the back of it.  That was left in place.


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## begreen (Feb 17, 2013)

What was it specifically that concerned the sweep? The side louvers don't seem to be a major issue. Was it the section cut out of the inner firebox? I'm wondering how the sweep even noticed this?

BTW, nice job on the hearth extension.


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## DSK (Feb 18, 2013)

The sweep seems to have a nearly 100% aversion to inserts in a prefab fireplace.  He said unless the specific combination was tested, it shouldn't be done.  Also said that the weight of the insert would lead to the firebox buckling at some point.  Additionally he said I had some staining on the stainless liner at the top near the cap indicating that I had a chimney fire, the pipe was no longer stainless and would rust.   My initial reaction was that he was doing "business development", but he spent 45 minutes here, didn't take a dime and didn't ask for any business.   I think he may just be ultra conservative.

Thanks for the compliment on the hearth extension.  I spec'ed it out and built it so that the K-factors were all to the install instructions (a lot of 1/2 inch cement board).  I really tried to do this thing right, that is why it is frustrating to be told I am putting my family in danger.


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## mellow (Feb 18, 2013)

I give it up to an honest sweep,  you don't find many like that anymore.  All his comments are dead on except the part about the stainless no longer being stainless due to a chimney fire?  Never heard that one before.  Depends on the liner but some are rated for multiple 2000 degree chimney fires.

So the installer didn't cut out any if the firebox in the back?


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## DSK (Feb 18, 2013)

I am almost certain that there were no cuts or removal in the back of the box.  I did not watch the entire install, but we had multiple conversations about depth and there being just enough to accommodate the insert.  Also, I never saw the heat exchanger on the trash pile, so I am pretty certain it is still back there.

As I remember, he made a cut on the inside of the front lip of the firebox to bend the metal up a bit to make room to get the insert in ( I believe the collar for connecting to the flue was not clearing).   The installer commented that because it was the "inner" box and the fire will now be contained in a stove (vs. open fire), that it was more than fine. 

The comment about the weight didn't calculate for me.  I'd say 1/3 of the stove sits on the extended hearth, the next 1/3+ sits over the floor joists resting on the block wall foundation.  So there would be some additional weight in the back of the box, but the primary load would rest over the foundation/interior floor joists under the hearth.  

I actually believe both of these guys are doing what they honestly feel is correct/safe......just have very different opinions.


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## webby3650 (Feb 18, 2013)

DSK said:


> Additionally he said I had some staining on the stainless liner at the top near the cap indicating that I had a chimney fire, the pipe was no longer stainless and would rust.


Wow! That's a first. Chimney fires don't cause staining. What he saw was the SS was discolored. It all turns blue, purple and bronze after it gets's hot. It's normal. He either doesn't have experience with liners, or he's using a scare tactic to get you to pay him to re-do all of it. The fact that he didn't solicit any work, makes me think he is unsure about your situation and likely inexperienced.

Lots of sweeps will lead you to believe that you can't have an insert in a pre-fab no matter what. It's simply not true. It comes from there lack of exposure to this type of set-up. As long as the installer didn't remove any vital parts of the fireplace, and insulated that liner, then you are fine.


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## DSK (Feb 19, 2013)

Thanks for all the advice/knowledge.  This guy has been a sweep for 30 years.  He is a bit of a character.  Who knows - I don't think he was trying to scare me, but either way he was successful.  From our conversation I believe he is 100% against an insert in a prefab, as he condemned it before really even looking at the set up.

The more I recollect/inspect - the only modifications made to the pre fab by the installer were remover of the louver panels, removal of the front threshold so the insert could sit flush and and a couple small cuts in the roof of the inner box so he could bend it back to get the insert to slide in.

A couple more questions:
I am not sure whether the SS liner was insulated.  As I recall, he said he was dropping it inside the triple wall chimney that came with the prefab, so it would be fine - but don't remember specifically about insulation.  Would I be able to tell if I pulled the chimney cap?

Would it be worth cutting an access panel into my chase and putting a thermometer on a couple spots on the outside of the prefab box to make sure it doesn't get to hot with a stoked fire going?  I am thinking that would tell me how hot it is getting on the outside of the fireplace and give me a chance to more full inspect the condition of the fireplace (it looked sound from the front before I put on the lath/scratch coat for the stone).

Thanks again webby3650, begreen and mellow!


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## mellow (Feb 19, 2013)

I thought the liner had to be insulated to meet code.  You could remove your top cap and look down with a flashlight to see if the liner is insulated.

As for cutting an access panel, it would be a good thing to do for peace of mind,  I would put a thermocouple on the top then move it to the sides to check temps,  you "might" be able to do this with an IR gun depending on how much room you have and how much heat your arms can take.


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## Chimney Crickett Sweep (Jul 20, 2014)

If you read the install instructions for the Napoleon insert, you will see that it says that it must be installed it into an HT type chimney flue. A prefab chimney is not that type of flue and can not be upgraded to to a HT type flue even by inserting a wrapped liner into it. If a structure fire occurs, the insurance company will look at this install as not correct and go back to the installer and make him/her pay for the damage or maybe not pay the claim.  The Prefab fireplace's flue is listed to UL127and tested to 1700 F. The stove's flue needs a flue listed to 103 HT and tested to 2100F.  They are not compatible. To install the stove, the chimney flue needs to be changed  out for the correct flue.  Call the stove's seller and ask specifically if it can legally be installed into a prefab. Copperfield chimney supply's tech line said it could not be done!


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## webby3650 (Jul 20, 2014)

Dura-vent has a re-line system made just for pre-fab fireplaces. It's UL listed, tested and approved. https://www.duravent.com/docs/product/Relining Factory Built_Sales Sheet.pdf
While I would not personally want an insert crammed into a Pre-Fab, I don't think it necessarily unsafe if done correctly. I see no issues with a hearth stove install and a full insulated liner. Stove and liner manufacturers put tons of money into testing! Money that a fireplace manufacturer isn't willing or able to spend. If the stove manufacturer and the liner manufacturer have tested and approved it for your particular application, I can't see any issues arising from it. I live and breath this stuff and I've never heard of any issues from the many thousands of pre-fab fireplaces out there that are using an insert or a hearth stove. I have on the other hand been around several partially burned houses from an overfilled open prefab fireplace.


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## Chimney Crickett Sweep (Jul 20, 2014)

Copperfield also has a system for doing this. I eventually pinned the Copperfield Tech guy down to :  was it "Up to Code" to insert the Napoleon into a Majestic prefab fireplace with a fully wrapped liner inside.  He said yes and no. I said if insurance is involved: is it "Up to code?"  He said NO!  I have seen issues with these type of installations. The Stove installer never truly knows how the prefab was installed. Thanks for all input!


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## Bornlate (Jan 9, 2016)

DSK said:


> I'm attaching the front page from the user manual I found for the Majestic.   You can see the louvered parts on either side of the firebox.  The firebox had a heat exchanger in the back of it.  That was left in place.


Hi DSK, 

I know this is an old post, but I just bought a place that has a Majestic Prefab ESF II, and it has plastic taped on the inside.  I haven't gone in to look yet, but would sure like a manual.  I noticed you posted the first page of a manual.  can you tell me where you found it, or would you be willing to send me a copy?

also, i'm curious why you wanted the insert.  did you ever try the fireplace itself?


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## begreen (Jan 9, 2016)

Chimney Crickett Sweep said:


> The Stove installer never truly knows how the prefab was installed.


The same could be said for a masonry chimney, right?


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## fishunt1 (Jan 10, 2016)

I had a Napoleon 1101 installed into a Superior pre fab a few years ago. It has a 6 inch liner and works great. My liner is not insulated ( I did not have the knowledge at the time to want it). The point is, I had it professionally installed with a city building permit. When the city came to sign off on my permit a fire inspector also came out. The city building inspector signed off and the fire inspector gave me a letter stating he approved of the install. The insurance company sent a person out to look at it and he seen no problems with it. He just took a few pictures and said enjoy. I see no safety concerns with this type of set up. I have worked in the fire service for 15 years and I believe what is more of a concern is lack of seasoned wood, poorly maintained chimney cleaning schedule(my neighbors give me a hard time about sweeping once a month!), lack of adequate hearth and clearance to combustibles. I have seen many a fire started by those reasons but not one from a correctly installed insert into a pre fab fire place.


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## bholler (Jan 10, 2016)

fishunt1 said:


> I have seen many a fire started by those reasons but not one from a correctly installed insert into a pre fab fire place.


Problem is it cannot be correctly installed into a unit that is not allowed to have an insert in it.


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## fishunt1 (Jan 10, 2016)

bholler
I have read and very clearly understand how you feel on this subject. I get how when your company does an install you want no doubt that it could not come back on you at all if things were to go bad. I understand that very well, that job is how you put food on the table for you and your family.
From where I sit, I look at the probability of fire occurring in the structure only. If we were to say 100 family's had an open pre fab fire place and 100 had a ZC rated insert with a liner in said fireplace, and each family burned 70 fires a year for 5 years I know I would be visiting more of the open fire places folks. I guess what I am trying to say is I understand where you are coming from but I feel ZC rated inserts in a pre fab is more of a liability issue than a safety issue. You know more about this than me, but if the city building inspector, city fire inspector and insurance person all come out and sign off that it is safe I don't see how there can be any liability on the installer.
Finally, I hope you do not take this conversation to be argumentative or disrespectful. The guys like you and others that post a lot on here, I am sure have saved many homes and human life over the years through education and training. I still remember my grandfather "teaching" me when I was young to cut fire wood in September so it could "season" and be ready for Thanksgiving!


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## bholler (Jan 10, 2016)

fishunt1 said:


> Finally, I hope you do not take this conversation to be argumentative or disrespectful.


Not at all and i respect your opinion.  



fishunt1 said:


> You know more about this than me, but if the city building inspector, city fire inspector and insurance person all come out and sign off that it is safe I don't see how there can be any liability on the installer.


Because if something does happen all of those people are protected by law from litigation the installer is not.   So if there is a claim and they find negligence (which this is)  they are going to go after whoever installed it.

As far as safety issues go if the fireplace is installed correctly and its floor is strong enough to support the insert.  And the installer does not restrict the cooling air circulation around that fireplace then yes i think it could be safe.  But at least 25% of the builders box zc units i check don't have proper clearances.  And the floors only need to support 100 lbs per sq ft which inserts can reach.  There are allot of ifs 

Again i respect you opinion i just disagree.  And so do all of the professional organizations in the field.


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## thechimneysweep (Jan 12, 2016)

In recent years, some zero-clearance fireplace manufacturers have changed the wording in their operator's manuals regarding installation of wood and gas inserts.

Perhaps the biggest player, Heatilator, now specifically allows installation of wood or gas inserts.  On page 6 of their owner's manual at http://downloads.hearthnhome.com/installManuals/4017_263.pdf, they state:

*Vented gas log sets, gas or wood inserts, or gas log lighters can be installed in this fireplace. Follow the instructions provided with the accessory for operation.*

Majestic uses the exact same phrasing to allow wood or gas inserts. (view their manual at http://www.majesticproducts.com/Products/Sovereign-Wood-Burning-Fireplace.aspx)

FMI's manual at http://fmisupport.hcents.com/supportdocs/124379-01B1.pdf still states:

*WARNING: 
Do not install a fireplace insert in this box unless the manufacturer's instructions with the insert specifically state this fireplace has been tested for use with this insert*.

IMP, manufacturer of Superior fireplaces, is also still in CYA mode: their zero clearance fireplace homeowner's manual at http://fmisupport.hcents.com/supportdocs/124379-01B1.pdf still says;

*IHP does not recommend or authorize the use of any insert in our fireplaces and will assume no responsibility for any damages caused by an insert.*

Which doesn't mean you can't install an insert and liner which have been specifically listed for installation in zero-cans in a Superior or FMI fireplace: it just means that those manufacturers might be out of the liability loop in the unlikely event that the insert/liner installation causes any damage.


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## bholler (Jan 12, 2016)

thechimneysweep said:


> Which doesn't mean you can't install an insert and liner which have been specifically listed for installation in zero-cans in a Superior or FMI fireplace: it just means that those manufacturers might be out of the liability loop in the unlikely event that the insert/liner installation causes any damage.


I totally disagree.  How can you pick and choose which set of instructions to follow?  If one set clearly says it cant be done then it cant be done without voiding the ul listing on that unit.  And once that unit is no longer a ul listed appliance none of those inserts are allowed to be installed in it.  So the only one left in the liability loop is the installer.   Now the ones that allow it that is obviously perfectly fine.  I did not know that majestics allowed it now to


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## thechimneysweep (Jan 12, 2016)

bholler said:

*If one set clearly says it cant be done then it cant be done without voiding the ul listing on that unit. *

bholler, don't get me wrong here, I didn't intend to start an argument.  It's just that thousands of people look to this website for information from helpful professionals like you, and I think it is super important that the info presented be accurate.  Here are some points that might be worthy of consideration:

1) Heatilator and Majestic now specifically allow installation of inserts, but that doesn't mean their fireplaces are UL listed for that application, because they're not.  I've been told that there isn't even a UL testing protocol for manufactured fireplaces that would allow or disallow installation of an insert (although there is a testing protocol for inserts that allows them to be listed for installation in manufactured fireplaces).  The point here is, installation of an insert cannot void the UL listing on a manufactured fireplace, because installation of an insert was never part of that listing. 

2) This is not to say it wouldn't affect the manufacturer's warranty, as FMI and Superior's statements seem to imply.   However, it should be noted that if you're not the original purchaser of the fireplace, or if it has been in place for more than ten years, your warranty coverage is expired anyway.

3) While it is true that manufactured fireplace chimneys are typically not 2100 deg. class HT, a properly installed insert will be connected to an insulated liner that does have the 2100 deg. HT listing.  Once the approved liner system is in place, the insert is no longer venting into the manufactured fireplace's chimney.


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## bholler (Jan 12, 2016)

thechimneysweep said:


> The point here is, installation of an insert cannot void the UL listing on a manufactured fireplace, because installation of an insert was never part of that listing.


It can because if you modify that listed appliance so it is not in the tested form it no longer meets the requirements of its listing.



thechimneysweep said:


> It's just that thousands of people look to this website for information from helpful professionals like you, and I think it is super important that the info presented be accurate.


I agree and that is why I advise the way i do.  



thechimneysweep said:


> although there is a testing protocol for inserts that allows them to be listed for installation in manufactured fireplaces)


What listing is that covered under?

If there is no problem with it why do csia and nfi both say not to do it?


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