# Oil Indirect DHW - Cost Analysis Help



## bryankloos (Feb 27, 2014)

Guys,

I had another oil delivery this week and pulled out the spreadsheet.  What caught my attention was the amount of oil I was using over the summer which presumably only heated DHW through an indirect DHW tank heated with the oil burner.

From the time we bought the house this summer through our first oil delivery (June 14th - October 24th) we burned 142 gallons of oil over the 134 day period, to give me 1.08gal/day which at $3.54 costs me $3.81/day to heat my hot water.  The above calculation of course assumes I didn't use any heat towards October which probably isn't true but I don't know when I first started using heat, so lets round down the numbers in our heads a bit...

This to me seems crazy.  Is it possible that I am paying this much just to heat my water?  That's almost $1400/year just to have hot water???

Fortunately the oil consumption has been pretty low since installing the insert in November but I am still burning oil to heat the water.  That will hopefully change next year when I install a gasser but that is down the road...

So, armed with the above data, what would you do?

1.  Switch over to electric?
2.  Suck it up until I install a gasser?
3.  Tell the wide and kids to take cold showers?
4.  Some other option which makes sense financially and keeps the family happy and warm...

If it helps, I have a Veissmann Vitorond 100 with a Reillo burner, running 87% efficiency with the unit being about 8 years old.

All input is greatly appreciated.

Many Thanks,

Bryan


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## ewdudley (Feb 27, 2014)

Your DHW oil use is typical, a gallon a day.  I think some can do much better with a low-mass cold-start boiler and an indirect tank. Typical electric DHW load is 6-8 kWh / day, $30 / month @ $0.15 / kWh, less with low-volume shower nozzles, tank insulation, and heat traps in tank plumbing.  DHW from a gasser is a nice bonus, but is not a justification for one.

[Edit:]  Check out discussion of GE GeoSpring below!


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## infinitymike (Feb 27, 2014)

If you are definitely getting a gasser than I would wait. 

I have an indirect DHW that can be heated by the oil back up or my gasser.
I choice to heat my DHW all summer with wood. I don't have storage but
Its real simple, especially with the wife home all day.
A 15 minute  batch fire in the morning and the tank is good for most of the day unless wife does a lot of laundry and she loves to use hot water for most loads, then she will do a small batch burn. 
Then another small batch burn later in the evening for showers.

If you do a gasser with storage it will be even less work for DHW as far as I have heard.


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## maple1 (Feb 27, 2014)

Echo ewdudley

I'm not familiar with your boiler - but I suspect it isn't a low mass cold start boiler?

I replaced our oil/wood combo boiler that did DHW with tankless coil, with an electric 80 gallon hot water heater, about a year and a half ago. We went from about 3/4 tank of oil (say 150 gallons) to do just our DHW when not heating the house (say maybe 5 months a year), to about $30/month (@ 0.17/kwh) to do our DHW when not burning wood (this past year that was only July & August). Very similar to ew's numbers. That's a family of 5 - one a teenage girl.

Depending on your boiler controls and how exactly it's working, you might be able to cut some oil use by lowering it's temps, or converting somehow to cold start operation. But, you could also put in a new electric or HPW water heater now and just turn the oil boiler off (if you really don't need it for house heat) - and plumb it to get heated also by a new wood boiler when you get to that point.

In other words - I'd try to do something about it right now & not wait for my new gasser, especially if you aren't sure you'll have a new gasser within the coming year. At over $100/mo for oil, you'd be looking at a pretty short ROI time - likely less than a year even if you go for a more expensive HPWH especially if you have incentives available.


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## Coal Reaper (Feb 27, 2014)

last summer i heated DHW with my newly installed gasser and 1000gals of storage.  5-6 days between burns.  i figured about a cord for 3 months but didnt keep track of it well.  while this is better than oil, i wish i had an electric water heater and will likely replace with one when my indirect is at the end of its life.  my vote is to get the electric going ASAP.  look at ones with a coil as well as the electric element so that for winter you can tie it into the gasser when you get it.


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## GENECOP (Feb 27, 2014)

Same here last year, this year the Geyser Heat Pump will make my domestic during the warmer months....


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## johnpma (Feb 27, 2014)

If it's only a couple people using hot water then I would look at the new hybrid heat pump hot water heaters. The 50 gallon units are about $1100.00 but you get most of that back at both state and fed levels. They estimate the cost for hotwater at less than $1.00/day for a small family. Pretty much a no brainer if you are a small family and 50 gallons will work for you. I just installed a Whirlpool energy smart unit but do not have numbers yet. We are a family of 5 and need 80 gallons. The energy smart monitors usage by computer and makes hot water previous to its monitored times. Works like a charm so far!!


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## bryankloos (Feb 27, 2014)

Thanks for the replies guys.
I'm currently at 0.11/kwh, so it seems electric may be the way to go.  I plan on installing the gasser, but it may get put off until the year after next.  We just moved in and need to replace the roof and get the house painted, which are priorities at this point.
That said, I like the idea of an electric unit with a coil for heating during the winter while the gasser is up.  In the summer I would have the option of heating with wood or electric.  Seems sensible.
What type of unit would you recommend I look at in the 80 gal range?
The knowledge of this board always amazes me.
Thanks!
Bryan


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## ewdudley (Feb 27, 2014)

bryankloos said:


> electric may be the way to go. I plan on installing the gasser, but it may get put off until the year after next.


I don't know if it's been tried, but I would think that an electric heater tank in a closet one  floor above storage, heated by a sidearm above storage and below the electric heater tank would work real well.  Gravity flow, no pumps, no controls except anti-scald mixer leaving electric heater tank.  Maybe something to consider when placing your electric tank.


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## bryankloos (Feb 27, 2014)

Guys,

Do you know of any Hybrid or "Smart Electric" heaters that have a coil integrated?

Thanks,

Bryan


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## Coal Reaper (Feb 27, 2014)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Solar-Hot-W...977?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item338419f211

this is what one of the members here pointed me to (sorry, i forget who).  quite expensive but all stainless so should be the last one you ever buy.  oventrop is made by another company or something like that.  one of them also as dual coil models.


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## maple1 (Feb 27, 2014)

Don't overlook what you can do with a regular electric water heater, and separate heat exchangers, if you find a coil-in tank too expensive.

Sidearms work very well, very simply, using convective flows & no pumps, during the heating season. You need to get all the components oriented right for that to work optimally - paying close attention to vertical alignments and stacking them (horizontal separation = bad).

If you wanted to keep the door open to heating DHW from storage in the off-heating season, then you can incorporate a flat plate HX & pump the domestic side.

Either one of those can be added later to a regular electric tank - try to put the tank in the right place for those later add-ons now, and leave some stubs & ball valves. Also, I went with a bottom-feed tank to make it a bit easier (for me) - that is likely a necessity if you wanted to add a sidearm later, although you could likely utilize the drain port if you wanted to.

The very first thing I would do though is check out what incentives are available to you for a HPWH - if there are any at all, it could make that the 'no-brainer' choice. And you can also add HXs to one of those later too if you still wanted to do your DHW with wood later.


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## bryankloos (Feb 27, 2014)

Looks like my local POCO has a $400 rebate for HPWH.
I wonder if the Fed will continue with the $300 rebate during 2014?
A combined $700 in savings would be a good down payment on the system. bringing the ROI to under 2 years...


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## Bob Rohr (Feb 27, 2014)

bryankloos said:


> Looks like my local POCO has a $400 rebate for HPWH.
> I wonder if the Fed will continue with the $300 rebate during 2014?
> A combined $700 in savings would be a good down payment on the system. bringing the ROI to under 2 years...




Don't forget solar thermal.  One 4X8 or 4X10 panel will provide plenty of DHW for a family of 4 with a 40- 60% solar fraction, depending on your location of course.

If you are a DIYer and can install a system yourself the numbers work out.  If you like to build stuff, builditsolar.com has plenty of homemade collector plans.

A dual coil indirect tanks makes it easy to have SDHW and backup in one tank.  Or solar coil with and upper electric element for backup.


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## moey (Feb 27, 2014)

bryankloos said:


> Thanks for the replies guys.
> I'm currently at 0.11/kwh, so it seems electric may be the way to go.



You may want to double check your rate that seems really low for NE. Total divided by kw used. Firing a boiler to just make hot water is inefficient I dont care what the oil man says. Its like driving a semi to the corner store rather then a compact the compact gets much better mileage. 

I have a 80 gallon electric never run out family of 4. I currently have it off my geothermal system makes the hot water in the winter. I'm contemplating getting a HPWH to act as a supply for the 80 gallon electric so in the summer I can do the same.


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## STIHLY DAN (Feb 27, 2014)

bryankloos said:


> Looks like my local POCO has a $400 rebate for HPWH.
> I wonder if the Fed will continue with the $300 rebate during 2014?
> A combined $700 in savings would be a good down payment on the system. bringing the ROI to under 2 years...



at $700 off and purchase of $1100. Thats $400 remaining, then $200 a year instead of $1400.  Thats $1200 less out minus the remaining $400 For a profit of $800 the 1st yr. ROI would be 4 months.


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## bryankloos (Feb 27, 2014)

Yup... .09 Generation and .02 Delivery = 0.11/kwh
I had an energy audit today and they also recommended ditching the oil DHW and moving to on-demand propane or HPWH.
The Whirlpool 80 gal looks pretty decent at about $1800.  With a 10% coupon and the $400 rebate that brings me to $1220 which I would install.
They also suggested spray-foaming my attic roof decking making it conditioned space.  They have a rebate that will pay for 50% of the job.  Seems interesting...
I'm leaning towards the HPWH as it will work with the current system and can still be used down the road when I get the gasser.

What do you estimate the annual cost of running the HPWH would be for a family of 2 adults and 2 small children?

Thanks,

Bryan


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## Ram 1500 with an axe... (Feb 27, 2014)

I don't know what a gasser is.... That being said.... Get an electric water heater.....


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## STIHLY DAN (Feb 27, 2014)

My bill went down $7 a month may thru sept. ( did not have to run dehumidifier ) Oct was up $20 nov thru march even, ( wood furnace made a bunch of H20 ) April up $20. Thats a family of 5, 3 being teenagers, and the wife liking her 60 gal baths. @ .19 kw. So $5 a year. I'll take it.


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## Ashful (Feb 27, 2014)

bryankloos said:


> From the time we bought the house this summer through our first oil delivery (June 14th - October 24th) we burned 142 gallons of oil over the 134 day period, to give me 1.08gal/day which at $3.54 costs me $3.81/day to heat my hot water.


Our usage is similar, with our 1986 oil-fired boiler and DHW off the boiler.  Summer time usage bottoms out around 1 gal/day... probably actually lower, since there's at least some heating days in each of those low points.  We average just below 7 gal/day mid-winter with one stove going.





I was able to push my gal/HDD way down in fall 2013, running TWO stoves 24/7, but quickly realized I was going to run out of wood.  So I dialed back to just one stove during the week, firing the second stove only on weekends, which is the reason for the up-tick in the gal/HDD curve in the early part of 2014.


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## BrotherBart (Feb 27, 2014)

At current prices that gallon a day is our entire electric cost in this all electric place. In winter with the wood heat and a space heater in the fartherest bedroom.

Heating water with a boiler is just plain nuts.


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## Ashful (Feb 27, 2014)

Yeah, I'm beginning to see that.  Never gave it an ounce of thought before.  Unfortunately, our house is plumbed for a boiler, and natural gas is not an option where we live.  I can't imagine producing our BTU needs with wood (15 cords / year at 75% average efficiency), so we're sort of stuck with oil for heat.  I guess the thinking was that as long as the boiler's here for heat, you might as well get the DHW water off of it.

I suspect that a more complete analysis would show we pay less to heat our water in winter, than in summer.  In summer, we're keeping that lossy boiler warm, solely for the sake of powering a heat exchanger and heating our DHW.  In the winter, the boiler is already warm (actually, kept at a higher temperature than in summer), and all losses are going into heating our house (rather than just making the AC work harder.

Not justifying it... just thinking out load.


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## JP11 (Feb 28, 2014)

Yes.. saying that your a gallon a day all year round is not accurate.  The biggest waste in summer DHW production is the fact that you have to heat your boiler first, THEN it starts heating your DHW.

Now in winter.. your boiler is running much more and is likely already warm, or the boiler will get called on for a heat load soon.  In the summer.. your demand for hot water has long periods between firings, thus wasting the heat in the boiler jacket.

I tend to at least ATTEMPT to cluster dishes, laundry, and showers together.  Even just when using the wood boiler.  It's the most efficient use.

In a perfect world.. middle of summer I would probably give up and just use electric.  BUT.. I have this fancy new wood boiler.. it works fine for a small fire every few days. The wife has gotten into a neat spring hobby.  She walks around the yard with the dogs collecting sticks (gotta pick up all the stuff anyway) and heats hot water with it.  There's a lot of sticks around the edge of the lawn with a couple acres of grass.

JP


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## velvetfoot (Feb 28, 2014)

I don't know why you can't graft on an electric water heater.  Here is a pic of what I did.  Of course, things may have to be moved with my "gasser" plans.  

edit:  I've since wrapped it in fiberglass with a shiny bubble plastic cover.  Maybe not super in the looks department.


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## maple1 (Feb 28, 2014)

Joful said:


> Unfortunately, our house is plumbed for a boiler ...


 
I would say there's nothing unfortunate about that. You just need the right boiler.


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## iceguy4 (Feb 28, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> I don't know why you can't graft on an electric water heater.  Here is a pic of what I did.  Of course, things may have to be moved with my "gasser" plans.
> 
> edit:  I've since wrapped it in fiberglass with a shiny bubble plastic cover.  Maybe not super in the looks department.





 Nice  I see your "field controls " vent damper  on your Oil boiler   ...  Summertime is the best time for an electric HW heat pump heater .  During the winter I heat my HW with a zoned HW maker fed by my pellet boiler...summer time , I flip some ball valves and get hot water free....from my basement DE humidifier!!(heat pump hot water heater)    My 30 gallon hot water maker as well as my 60 gallon Hot water heater(see signature) ...I have never runout of hot water....I have two showers with 5 heads(body/ rainmakers/shower heads ect)

To the OP    get a heat pump Hot water heater and don't look back


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## velvetfoot (Feb 28, 2014)

You're in NY, so you got a HPWH even without a rebate?


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## iceguy4 (Feb 28, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> You're in NY, so you got a HPWH even without a rebate?


 spent close to $9000 on my pellet boiler and didn't look for a rebate....prolly should have....


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## moey (Feb 28, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> You're in NY, so you got a HPWH even without a rebate?



You can buy the GE geospring for $900 at Lowes on a regular basis. It will go on sale for $999 every other month and then a 10% off coupon.


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## velvetfoot (Feb 28, 2014)

moey said:


> You can buy the GE geospring for $900 at Lowes on a regular basis. It will go on sale for $999 every other month and then a 10% off coupon.


I might check it out at some point.  Working on planning gasifer in basement.


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## Ashful (Feb 28, 2014)

bryankloos said:


> I had an energy audit today and they also recommended ditching the oil DHW and moving to on-demand propane or HPWH.


So, let's assume indirect oil with storage is roughly 1 gal. oil/day, for the average family = $3.65/day = $1330/year.  I'd be interested in seeing some cost data on a HPWH vs. on-demand propane.  The one site I did quickly check has numbers so far off for oil (factor of 2x or worse), that I do not put faith in any of their numbers.

http://www.aceee.org/consumer/water-heating

_edit:  I should state that I'm wondering if I'd do well to install a HPWH, either an integral unit or as an add-on to my current tank (if possible).  Operation would be oil-fired boiler during heating season, and HPWH during summer.  It would be nice to have something that cools and dehumidifies the basement boiler room in the summer, rather than running the boiler (and dehumidifier) on 80F - 100F days all summer._


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## Fred61 (Feb 28, 2014)

If you need to run a dehumidifier then your hot water is free. We installed a Geyser last spring for summer DHW but now we're not sure which was the biggest benefit, hot water or dryer and cooler basement. I also forced some of the cooler, dryer air upstairs to the living space and was able to reduce running time on my mini splits.


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## moey (Feb 28, 2014)

Joful said:


> So, let's assume indirect oil with storage is roughly 1 gal. oil/day, for the average family = $3.65/day = $1330/year.  I'd be interested in seeing some cost data on a HPWH vs. on-demand propane.  The one site I did quickly check has numbers so far off for oil (factor of 2x or worse), that I do not put faith in any of their numbers.
> 
> http://www.aceee.org/consumer/water-heating
> 
> _edit:  I should state that I'm wondering if I'd do well to install a HPWH, either an integral unit or as an add-on to my current tank (if possible).  Operation would be oil-fired boiler during heating season, and HPWH during summer.  It would be nice to have something that cools and dehumidifies the basement boiler room in the summer, rather than running the boiler (and dehumidifier) on 80F - 100F days all summer._



If it were me Id just install a electric tank or HPWH and be done with oil. HPWH can be run in straight electric mode.

Something to consider if you use a on-demand propane system is the price youll pay if your not consuming large quantities per year. Making hot water doesn't use much propane in a year.


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## STIHLY DAN (Feb 28, 2014)

On demand is a little cheaper, but costs almost 3 times more. Roi over the hpwh would be like 100 yrs.


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## bryankloos (Feb 28, 2014)

Done Deal... I'm sold on the HPWH. I cant turn down a sub year ROI, and a projected savings of 12K over the 10 year life of the unit.  Especially with a $400 rebate. 

Now, would it make sense to save the old indirect to use as a 80 gallon preheater for the HPWH once I install the gasification boiler in a couple years?


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## STIHLY DAN (Feb 28, 2014)

Yes if its a quality one.


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## velvetfoot (Mar 1, 2014)

If your indirect is 80 gallons, could you use an add-on heat pump unit, and then heat it with wood boiler in the winter?


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## maple1 (Mar 1, 2014)

Sure can.


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## Ashful (Mar 1, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> If your indirect is 80 gallons, could you use an add-on heat pump unit, and then heat it with wood boiler in the winter?


This is what I'm thinking , but oil/hpwh, seasonally.


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## velvetfoot (Mar 1, 2014)

Are you saying heat up an integrated hpwh with wood fired water in winter?  He already has 80 gallon indirect (which, if my 30 gallon jobbie is boo coo bucks, I can't imagine what an 80 gallon must run).


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## Fred61 (Mar 1, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> If your indirect is 80 gallons, could you use an add-on heat pump unit, and then heat it with wood boiler in the winter?


I hooked my Geyser up to my super store but left it connected to the oil boiler since my winter supply of DHW (when wood boiler is running) is produced from 200 feet of 3/4 inch copper in my unpressurized storage and is used directly from the output of the storage tank. Through a tempering valve I might add. Didn't want to get scolded by the safety conscious 
 So I have three ways of making hot water. If my wood boiler goes down and storage temperature goes below a certain preset level my oil boiler kicks in. I don't mind as much making DHW with an oil boiler that's already hot but I cringe when I'm making hot water in the summer with a cols start boiler. Hence the Geyser.
So basically my super store is cold all winter except for the occasional oil burner exercise session.


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## mustash29 (Mar 1, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> I might check it out at some point.  Working on planning gasifer in basement.


 

My local Lowes has the GE GeoSpring for 599 right now.  The CT and Fed rebates have dried up, but 599 is a killer price.


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## velvetfoot (Mar 1, 2014)

I find it f***ed up that it is 599 in CT, 1199 in MA, and 699 here in NY.  Of course, there are 750 in rebates in MA but it has to be installed by a contractor.


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## bryankloos (Mar 1, 2014)

Will I need 80 gal for a family of 4 with occasional guests? I currently have a 80 gal but wouldn't mind the decreased costs of the 60 gal HPWH?


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## bryankloos (Mar 1, 2014)

Scratch that... I have a crown MS-40 currently, so I should be good to go with the 60 gallon.
Where is the GE 599?  I see it at 1199 for the GE 50 gallon???


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## velvetfoot (Mar 1, 2014)

You have to put it in your cart.


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## bryankloos (Mar 1, 2014)

Ahh, yes.  $599 in the cart.  Wow.
What do you guys know about the GE versus the Whirlpool unit?
Would I notice any difference between the old 40 gal indirect compared to a new 50 gal HPWH with respect to hot water supply?  I'm assuming I will have more hot water but would love some reassurance.

At $599 with a $400 POCO Rebate I'm finding this hard to pass up.  Can someone give me a reality check or should I just throw down the funds and get this at $599 today?
Bryan


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## mustash29 (Mar 1, 2014)

Sears carries the 50 gal GE and the 60 & 80 gal Kenmore / Whirlpool units.  Their web site seems to have a few more specs to compare.

GE - Lighter weight, assembled in KY, USA but probably still contains lots of Chineese parts, has a top mount air filter, has a replaceable annode rod, copper electric element.

Ken / WP - Heavier weight,  made in China, has side mount air filter, long life electric annode rod, stainless electric element.

Your Crown MS-40 will have a faster recovery rate, because the high BTU capability of the boiler heating it.  In hybrid mode, the GE will kick in the electric back up element if needed during higher water demands.  In HP only mode, it's recovery rate is slower, but that's where the energy savings come from.

For your application, you could shut down the oil in the non-heating season, keep the water supply feeding the Crown, install the GE downstream of the Crown.  By either shutting off the oil boiler or installing a kill switch for the Crown's acquastat wiring, you could easily operate the Crown, the GE or both in series.  That's a lot of system flexibility.

Where are you getting the POCO rebate info from?  The Fed tax credit dried up as of Dec 31, 2013.  The unit had to be purchased & installed before then.  The CL&P rebate was only good for "if replacing an existing electric HWH or building a new all electric house".  The CL&P rebate also required a purchase & install date before Dec 31, 2013 but you had untill Jan 31, 2014 to fill the rebate form.


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## bryankloos (Mar 1, 2014)

The rebate is from energize CT. I guess the guys who conducted my energy audit hooked me up as they signed all the rebate forms for me. The purchase period is jan 1 through dec 31, 2014.  While technically the rebate is for replacement of an electric unto there is no required documentation for the rebate other than the receipt and a copy of my utility bill. No contractor signature required for the water heaters. 

The energy audit was through my fuel oil provider as a perk. They replaced light bulbs, sealed hvac ducts, weather strip applications etc. Not bad. 

I'm leaning towards the GE given the price difference. I don't see much reason to spend the extra 1k on the whirlpool???


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## avc8130 (Mar 1, 2014)

I don't see the GE for $599 in my cart at Lowes.  Are you sure Lowes isn't claiming the rights to the rebates in that price?

ac


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## bryankloos (Mar 1, 2014)

I just purchased it.  The Lowes site says 40% off PLUS up to $400 in rebates.  I'm fairly certain I just picked it up for $199.
Time will tell once I submit the rebate...
Bryan


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## mustash29 (Mar 1, 2014)

bryankloos said:


> I just *STOLE* it.  The Lowes site says 40% off PLUS up to $400 in rebates.  I'm fairly certain I just picked it up for $199.
> Time will tell once I submit the rebate...
> Bryan



Fixed it for ya.  LOL.

Killer deal for sure.


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## BoilerMan (Mar 1, 2014)

Coal Reaper said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Solar-Hot-W...977?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item338419f211
> 
> this is what one of the members here pointed me to (sorry, i forget who).  quite expensive but all stainless so should be the last one you ever buy.  oventrop is made by another company or something like that.  one of them also as dual coil models.


That was me.....  I have this model.  I do not think the second coil is needed unless you want to have the option to still use oil as a backup.  The Oventrop indirect is made by HeatFlo out of Mass.  They have ones with the electric element built in as well.

TS


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## STIHLY DAN (Mar 1, 2014)

At $1200 its a no brainer, at $600 one would be retarded not to jump on it.


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## velvetfoot (Mar 1, 2014)

avc8130 said:


> I don't see the GE for $599 in my cart at Lowes.  Are you sure Lowes isn't claiming the rights to the rebates in that price?
> 
> ac


Are you in CT?


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## avc8130 (Mar 2, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> Are you in CT?



No...but I probably COULD be for $600.

ac


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## velvetfoot (Mar 2, 2014)

I stopped off at the local Lowes this morning to buy a plumbing item.  I went by the water heaters and there is no indication of a price lower than 1199.  I didn't talk to anybody.  600 bucks, though, is a siren's call.


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## BoilerMan (Mar 2, 2014)

I got my Nyletherm 1 for half of your $600....................  If the existing WH is in good condition an add-on unit HPWH is very attractive.

TS


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## bryankloos (Mar 2, 2014)

Before I start ripping apart the existing system, how would you guys recommend using the old indirect WH in conjunction with the new HPWH?
I understand the option of a preheater once I install the gasification boiler, but in the interim what is the benefit of keeping the old set-up in place?
I plan to pick up the HPWH tomorrow, pending we don't have any snow to deal with.


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## STIHLY DAN (Mar 2, 2014)

Nothing.


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## Brian26 (Mar 19, 2014)

I purchased the Geospring last year for $900 from Lowes and got a $400 Utility and $300 federal rebate. So paid $200 as well. CT most offer some other rebate or form of savings or something. I have had it for about a year now and it has probably already paid itself off.


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## velvetfoot (Mar 19, 2014)

When I installed my electric resistance water heater, I kept the indirect heater just in case of a real long power outage, for conserving generating capacity.   I also am not sure how to incorporate a pellet boiler, oil boiler, indirect, and hybrid water heater.


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## chken (Mar 19, 2014)

bryankloos said:


> Guys,
> 
> I had another oil delivery this week and pulled out the spreadsheet.  What caught my attention was the amount of oil I was using over the summer which presumably only heated DHW through an indirect DHW tank heated with the oil burner.
> 
> ...


I had a similar setup to you. An 8-yr old Buderus heating an indirect DHW. I've been tracking my oil use, and the roughly 200 days of non-Winter were averaging 1 gal of oil a day. Just like you I was shocked.

So, a year and a half ago I got a GE Geospring from Lowes for $900. I did see that some other NE states had credits from their utilities that drove the cost to zero. I think it was Massachusetts at the time because I sent the info to a friend.

I installed it myself, but had my electrician friend come over to wire the box. He's licensed, I'm not, and the electrical panel always scares me, though I've swapped out breakers before. I pexed my GE to my old indirect DHW in serial. The cold water comes to my GE, then the heated water goes to my old DHW for storage, then off to whatever sink or tub calling for hot water. Works well, and gives me double the hot water storage.

Given the price and rebates and credits, this is one install that is a no-brainer. The payback is at most 2 years, and for some zero years.


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## velvetfoot (Mar 20, 2014)

chken said:


> I had a similar setup to you. An 8-yr old Buderus heating an indirect DHW. I've been tracking my oil use, and the roughly 200 days of non-Winter were averaging 1 gal of oil a day. Just like you I was shocked.
> 
> So, a year and a half ago I got a GE Geospring from Lowes for $900. I did see that some other NE states had credits from their utilities that drove the cost to zero. I think it was Massachusetts at the time because I sent the info to a friend.
> 
> ...



I think I'm getting closer to understanding.  But...how does the hot water from the geospring make the indirect hot?  Just natural convection or is there a circ pump involved?


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## mustash29 (Mar 20, 2014)

It sounds like his GeoSpring does the heating, but it's outlet feeds the indirect.  Other than standby losses (and providing the the settings are tweaked properly) the indirect will never call for heat unless there is a huge demand.



I have an 80 gal Slant Fin HWT-80 indirect (glass lined steel) and a 40 gal Crown Mega-Store (stainless) indirect with a pinhole leak in the heating coil.  Here are my plans:

Cold feed into the bottom of the 40 gal (cap off the bad coil).
Hot out of the top of the 40 into the bottom "cold" inlet of the 80.
Hot outlet of the 80 to a mixing valve and to the house.
Geyser HPWH sucks from the bottom (cold) side of the 40.  Geyser hot outlet injects into the top of the 80, essentially back feeding the entire 120 gallons.

Why?

Summer / Shoulder:

This will give me 120 gal of DHW, all heated over a long time from the Geyser.  The 40 will discharge it's volume into the inlet of the 80, effectively keeping the 80's aquastat from needing to turn on unless there is a huge draw.  

If there is a huge draw and the Geyser and stored volume are not enough, the 80 will get heated from oil, if I choose to turn it on.

Winter:

Geyser will be off.  Wood or oil will take care of the 80 gal.  The 40 gal (stainless) won't care if it has cold well water in it.


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## chken (Mar 20, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> I think I'm getting closer to understanding.  But...how does the hot water from the geospring make the indirect hot?  Just natural convection or is there a circ pump involved?


Exactly as mustash stated. The indirect is additional hot water storage. The standby losses are minimal. Oh, I set the GE for 140 degrees, so that the water in the indirect storage has plenty of headroom for standby losses. Right now, my oil Buderus is still connected as it heats the bedrooms, but the Taco has never called for heating the indirect DHW. Of course that is set for 120 degrees. Basically, the end result is that I get 90 gallons of HW, instead of the 40 in my old indirect unit, or 50 in the GE. Electricity usage is exactly as predicted, about $20 more a month, or $240 a year, based upon my 14.5 cents/kwh.

So, the indirect is just a storage tank in the loop. HW is made in the GE using the heat pump setting to save electricity. When HW is called for, HW goes from the GE to replace existing HW in the indirect tank. The existing HW in the indirect tank goes off to wherever it's called for. Easypeasy. It's just like having a 90 gallon DHW that is heated by a heat pump.


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## chken (Mar 20, 2014)

mustash29 said:


> It sounds like his GeoSpring does the heating, but it's outlet feeds the indirect.  Other than standby losses (and providing the the settings are tweaked properly) the indirect will never call for heat unless there is a huge demand.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Exactly. Why throw away a hot water storage tank?


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## Ashful (Mar 20, 2014)

We did the same thing with our oil-fired indirect DHW and an electric water heater, back around '83.  In our case, it was more about capacity (went from 70 gal to 130 gal), and I'm not sure cost savings was ever considered a factor.  Oil was cheap, then.

In any case, electric fed the oil DHW.  It made for an almost continuous supply, as the two systems working in series could actually act in an on-demand function to some level, if you managed to burn thru the 130 gallon stored capacity (big house, 4 shower stalls + 1 tub).


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## SIERRADMAX (Mar 20, 2014)

2012, I tracked the oil consumption my 40 gal. DHW used during the summer months and if I remember, it amounted to nearly $110/mo. and that was at the cost of oil 2 years ago. In 2013, I revamped my heating system to include a wood boiler. I had an 80 gallon AO smith residential electric water heater that I plumbed temporarily while revamping the oil system. Ended up costing me on average $50/mo in electricity compared to the same months during the prior year. Upon completion, My state had a $750 rebate & $300 federal rebate for a heatpump water heater install. I plumbed them in series like Joful mentions.

original 40 gallon DHW & a new 60 gallon hybrid.


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## velvetfoot (Mar 20, 2014)

SIERRADMAX said:


> 2012, I tracked the oil consumption my 40 gal. DHW used during the summer months and if I remember, it amounted to nearly $110/mo. and that was at the cost of oil 2 years ago. In 2013, I revamped my heating system to include a wood boiler. I had an 80 gallon AO smith residential electric water heater that I plumbed temporarily while revamping the oil system. Ended up costing me on average $50/mo in electricity compared to the same months during the prior year. Upon completion, My state had a $750 rebate & $300 federal rebate for a heatpump water heater install. I plumbed them in series like Joful mentions.
> 
> original 40 gallon DHW & a new 60 gallon hybrid.


I tried to see what was going on with the piping but failed.  It almost looked parallel to me.  Is the heat pump water heater feeding the indirect?


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## SIERRADMAX (Mar 20, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> I tried to see what was going on with the piping but failed.  It almost looked parallel to me.  Is the heat pump water heater feeding the indirect?



It's he other way around domestic water supply goes through the indirect (which can be valved off or bypassed) to the heat pump WH. The switch on the wall disrupts the dry contacts whenever I don't want he indirect to call for hot water. I use it when operating the wood boiler solely.


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## Redbarn (Mar 23, 2014)

I'm a bit late to this thread but I installed a Geyser HPWH 3 years ago now.
Pictures are in: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/ducting-and-geyser.108580/

Saved 1 gall of oil per day.
The most pleasant surprise was the drop in AC costs in summer.
The oil DHWH is inside the air conditioned volume of our house and so the AC had to shift the waste heat from the oil burner as well as the general house heat.
In our case, when all done, we got summer DHW for just about free and in the shoulder seasons, a barely changed overall electric bill.


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## BoilerMan (Mar 23, 2014)

Redbarn said:


> I'm a bit late to this thread but I installed a Geyser HPWH 3 years ago now.
> Pictures are in: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/ducting-and-geyser.108580/
> 
> Saved 1 gall of oil per day.
> ...


I find my Nyletherm (Nyle makes the Geyser) costs about 10-15/month to run.  Our electric rate is $0.147/kWh, and we do not conserve hot water in our family of 3. 

TS


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## STIHLY DAN (Mar 23, 2014)

That's it you guys suck! I had my hot H2O down, 80 gal pre heated by wood furnace feeding geo spring, works great. Now I have to pipe in another tank post geo for another 40 gal of hot H2O, because its the cats a$$. Ya you suck and thanks for it. (GENIOUS)


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## STIHLY DAN (Mar 23, 2014)

Oh, a math ?? too. What is best having 80 gal 0f 90* H2O feeding geo, or 40 gal of 130* feeding geo.


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## Ashful (Mar 23, 2014)

Redbarn said:


> I'm a bit late to this thread but I installed a Geyser HPWH 3 years ago now.
> Pictures are in: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/ducting-and-geyser.108580/
> 
> Saved 1 gall of oil per day.
> ...


Okay, I'm confused by this:


Redbarn said:


> This shows how the Geyser was plumbed in parallel with the 80 gall oil water heater.


So, you installed in parallel, and I'll assume the reason is so that you can throw a pair of valves and run off either oil (winter) or HPWH (summer).  However, why wouldn't you just plumb them in series, with the HPWH up-stream of the storage for the indirect oil?  As already mentioned here, the oil indirect would be reduced to just maintaining the water coming off the HPWH in summer, and could be set a little lower than the HPWH, so it cycles only under extremely long storage situations.  It would give you significantly more storage, and rather than switching valves twice a year, you could just kill the breaker to the HPWH in winter.

What did I miss?


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## Redbarn (Mar 24, 2014)

My layout is very simple.
For all but 30 days per year, the oil burner is turned off.
The Geyser draws water out of the bottom of the 80 gall tank and returns hotter water back to the top. No oil is used.
When we get house guests, the oil burner is turned on and both often run together which dramatically increases hot water response time. Both heat the same 80 gall tank of hot water, often simultaneously. The oil heater is governed by its own aquastatt.
In winter, the oil heater is turned on but power to the oil burner is governed by an air thermostat that turns it on if the basement temperature drops below 52 deg F, the temp at which the Geyser starts to struggle. The oil burner quickly heats the 80 galls and the Geyser shuts off. As warmer weather arrives, the temp in the basement rises and eventually the oil burner is shut off again.


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## Ashful (Mar 24, 2014)

Very cool.  I think I'm sold on the HPWH concept, particularly for seasons when the oil burner is not being used for heat.  Whether it makes sense to run a HPWH only 3 months, 6 months, or 9 months of the year, when you already have oil indirect running, is probably matter for a whole other thread.  But, I think I'm going to start looking into adding a HPWH to my setup, nonetheless.  In my case, I had imagined a HPWH with a tank, plumbed in series with (upstream of) the boiler's indirect DHW.  So, the HPWH heats incoming water, and the old DHW tank is set lower to act as additional storage.  Since our current DHW seems to have more capacity than we need, tho... maybe it makes more sense to do a tankless HPWH on the same oil indirect DHW tank, and just set the oil T-stat to a much lower temperature than the HPWH T-stat.


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## Redbarn (Mar 24, 2014)

I could see no sense for me in installing a separate tank HPWH. Our 80 gall DHW tank was in good shape and all I could see was heat losses and lots of plumbing & control system issues.
If I were replacing an existing DHW tank, then a HPWH with tank would make sense.

I just engineered things so that the HPWH carried as much of the DHW load as possible with the oil DWH heater covering shortfalls.


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## Ashful (Mar 24, 2014)

Was looking at the Geyser RO literature, and how I'd hook it up with the boiler mate.  Interesting, but it seems to me they focus on making all the installs too DIY friendly for my tastes.  Might check out their commercial stuff, but also want to check other mfgr's.


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## Redbarn (Mar 24, 2014)

The Geyser installation is really pretty easy. Very straightforward.
I watched Tom in Maine's video before I did mine.



You could always hire a professional to do it. They'll make it a more complex job.


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## Ashful (Mar 24, 2014)

Hah!  No, you misread me.  I grew up working as a plumber's apprentice (father's family owned a plumbing business), and tend to shy away from DIY type appliances when it comes to plumbing, as they never seem to have a great track record in the long-haul.  I think we're probably only two or three decades out from learning PEX is the next polybutylene, or finally discovering the health effects of having your drinking water indefinitely soaking in polyethelene tubing.

I just finished re-plumbing this house, all in copper (1" mains, 3/4" runs, 1/2" appliances), and hate the idea of that Geyers RO box sitting on the floor with its plastic lines running to my beautiful BoilerMate.  I'm also a little confused by the need for the dip tube in most installations, thinking the "Alternate Installation" on p.16 seems to be the only sensible one (of course... if you could replace the plastic tubing with copper):

http://www.nyle.com/downloads/GeyserRO_Manual.pdf

I like the idea, but dislike the Geyser residential units.  Maybe their professional units are more suited?  Our hot water usage is probably higher than the average residence, but their pro series looks maybe TOO big (24k BTU vs. 6k BTU).  Seems to me I should be shopping 10k BTU units, but that's just a rough guess.

_edit:  I see no mention of it in their manual, but I am finding some Geyser RO install photos that are hard-plumbed with copper.  That's promising._


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## Redbarn (Mar 25, 2014)

My father also owned a plumbing business so I have little fear of plumbing. However, I never developed a love of installing copper piping, just too much work to achieve the simple task of routing water from A to B. There is a certain beauty however in a nice pipe layout. I just love Pex. 
The Geyser is not a consumer grade product. It is a piece of industrial equipment that has strayed into the consumer market. It is pretty rugged. Mine survived being 50% immersed in basement water (while running !) during Hurricane Irene.
The page 16 layout is the only sensible installation scheme.

If you need 10k BTU or more then the Geyser is too small.


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## SIERRADMAX (Mar 25, 2014)

Redbarn said:


> My father also owned a plumbing business so I have little fear of plumbing. However, I never developed a love of installing copper piping, just too much work to achieve the simple task of routing water from A to B. There is a certain beauty however in a nice pipe layout. I just love Pex.
> The Geyser is not a consumer grade product. It is a piece of industrial equipment that has strayed into the consumer market. It is pretty rugged. Mine survived being 50% immersed in basement water (while running !) during Hurricane Irene.
> The page 16 layout is the only sensible installation scheme.
> 
> If you need 10k BTU or more then the Geyser is too small.



I agree pex is easy. But for those with rodent problems, mice don't like the taste of copper!


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## Ashful (Mar 25, 2014)

Redbarn said:


> My father also owned a plumbing business so I have little fear of plumbing. However, I never developed a love of installing copper piping, just too much work to achieve the simple task of routing water from A to B. There is a certain beauty however in a nice pipe layout. I just love Pex.
> The Geyser is not a consumer grade product. It is a piece of industrial equipment that has strayed into the consumer market. It is pretty rugged. Mine survived being 50% immersed in basement water (while running !) during Hurricane Irene.
> The page 16 layout is the only sensible installation scheme.
> 
> If you need 10k BTU or more then the Geyser is too small.


Cool, thanks Redbarn!

On the actual need, I'm quite unsure.  We're currently a family of 2 adults + 2 small children, so our needs are sure to grow as the children do.  We have frequent house guests, and I suspect it won't be uncommon to have three showers going simultaneously to one or two dishwashers and even a washing machine.  I really need to look at my current usage, to determine what size heat pump makes the most sense.  With the boiler, I have options to have the boiler kick in any time the heat pump lags behind, and in fact might not even use the heat pump during the months of the year when our hot water load is probably highest.

I love the home-run architecture that PEX permits (imagine the cost in copper!), versus the more confusing distributed architecture one uses with copper.  However, copper has a track record that is impossible to deny.  Every other plastic system we've introduced has come up short in one regard or another... eventually.

A side story to that side story.... When I re-plumbed my house, I drew the layout and went to buy all the material.  Copper had gone up in the few years since I had last done a similar project, so I experienced a little sticker shock when I left the supply house with $1800 worth of tubing and fittings.  My house had been modified and expanded by several prior owners, to the point where there were 5 layers of piping hanging on one another, randomly criss-crossing the boiler room.  Every time an appliance would shut off, all the piping would jump and clang against each other.  There were runs of piping that went from the source, to the far end of the basement, just to come back to an appliance on the same side of the basement as the source.  A true mess, with miles of wasted pipe and dozens of old valves frozen shut or open.  I cut it all out, saving any good tubing, and found I had so much recovered old tubing that I only ended up using two 10-foot lengths of the new tubing I had bought.  I ended up returning almost all of the tubing I had bought, and the few spare fittings I had bought, and found my total outlay was maybe only $700.  Then I took the old fittings and remaining scraps of old tubing to the scrap yard, and got $500 for that.  Total re-plumbing of the house only cost me roughly $200.


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## Ashful (Mar 25, 2014)

Redbarn said:


> The page 16 layout is the only sensible installation scheme.


Oh, meant to comment on this.  I watched your video last night, and I had never seen that show, but I like it!  However, I thought he mentioned several times running his system in reverse to what the manual (and my common sense) dictate.  It sounded like he was going to pull cold water off the bottom of his tank, and return the hot water to the top.  He said it more than once.


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## Redbarn (Mar 25, 2014)

I don't wish to ignite a water storage temperature stratification debate, but I draw off the bottom and return to the top of the tank. The aquastatt for the oil burner is near the bottom too, so if the bottom gets too cold, it kicks in to support the Geyser.


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## Ashful (Mar 25, 2014)

Redbarn said:


> I don't wish to ignite a water storage temperature stratification debate, but I draw off the bottom and return to the top of the tank. The aquastatt for the oil burner is near the bottom too, so if the bottom gets too cold, it kicks in to support the Geyser.


Hmm... there shouldn't be a debate on this.  There should be data to show which method is more efficient.  Perhaps the only room for debate would be that usage patterns vary, and perhaps one method favors certain usage patterns better than the other.

Where's woodgeek?  Stuff like this is his usual bathroom reading material.


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## Ashful (Mar 25, 2014)

Hah... I just caught myself reading a site called treehugger.com!  What are you guys doing to me?  I feel so un-clean...

Next, I'll be putting insulation wrap on all my hot water pipes...


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## Redbarn (Mar 25, 2014)

Insulation wrap on hot water pipes does work. I did some tests with an IR gun and could see a worthwhile difference.


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## chken (Mar 25, 2014)

Joful said:


> Hah... I just caught myself reading a site called treehugger.com!  What are you guys doing to me?  I feel so un-clean...
> 
> Next, I'll be putting insulation wrap on all my hot water pipes...


What, I read treehugger and I've got insulation on my hot water lines, what am I doing wrong?


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## velvetfoot (Mar 25, 2014)

I have the gray insulation stuff on my COLD water pipes and I still got condensation.  Perhaps if I do get a  HP DHWH that would change.


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## simple.serf (Mar 25, 2014)

I actually just stumbled across this thread, and the issue of DHW has been one I have been debating for some time. We have an indirect HW heater running off of an oil fired boiler. I am familiar with using heat reclaim systems from work (we use heat reclaim tanks to take waste heat from large refrigeration racks). DHW for us at the house has been about $1400/year. 

One of these geyser units look like it may help us get to the goal of being off of oil altogether. The other advantage that I can see is that my genset can run this system, whereas an electric tank or an electric demand heater would be a little too much for my old MEP-002a. Plumbing it in copper would be a piece of cake.


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## Redbarn (Mar 25, 2014)

I have used my Yamaha 2000 genny to run the Geyser but it took nearly 5 hours to heat an 80 gall tank full.
It was better to use the genny to run the oil water heater instead. We got a tank full in under an hour.


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## Ashful (Mar 25, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> I have the gray insulation stuff on my COLD water pipes and I still got condensation.  Perhaps if I do get a  HP DHWH that would change.


Probably not, unless your basement is exceedingly small and air tight.  The condensation is from humid air hitting the cold pipes, and since that insulation isn't air tight...

The HPWH will remove some humidity from the air, but everything I read says that's pretty minimal.  After all, how many minutes/hours per day do you expect this little Geyser to actually run?


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## velvetfoot (Mar 25, 2014)

I didn't realize it was only minor-I hadn't read that.
Of course the basement was humid, from a relative point of view.  That gray stuff is porus; it was like a sponge.  I'm thinking the more rubbery stuff used on A/C pipes might be better.Wouldn't the hpwh be making the basement even cooler in the summertime?  I should wheel it outside under the deck in the summertime.  You know, I'm only half kidding.


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## Ashful (Mar 25, 2014)

In theory, it makes the basement both cooler and dryer.  However, maybe not enough so to keep up with fresh air infiltration, especially in a larger basement or one that's not well-sealed from unconditioned space above.

I think you'll have the same condensation results with any form of insulation on the cold water pipes.  The only solutions I know for this problem are warmer water or dryer air.  Do what you can to seal the basement, and then install a dehumidifier.  If you're set on a HPWH, it might be worth waiting to see how well it dehumidifies, but unless you use a lot of hot water to where you're keeping it running for a significant portion of the day, what I've read indicates it's only offering fairly minor help in cooling and dehumidification.


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## velvetfoot (Mar 25, 2014)

Joful, I've got to get some sleep now, but if you can recall any links dealing with the dehumidification effect of hphwh's I'd appreciate it.


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## Redbarn (Mar 26, 2014)

A Geyser is a serious dehumidifier. It has an 8" dia inlet/outlet and moves a lot of air.
The basement containing the Geyser is circa 2000 sq ft and if it runs for 5 hours a day, it dries it out pretty thoroughly.
We own other dehumidifiers and these are toys by comparison.

It all depends on the size of your basement, your air exchange and wall seepage.
Any HPWH would do a good job at dehumidifiying.


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## Fred61 (Mar 26, 2014)

I installed my Geyser last spring hooked to a 40 gallon Superstore. Basement is 1000 sq. ft with several uninsulated cold water pipes that seriously condensed in the past.
The Geyser not only cooled the space but dehumidified it to the point where I invested in a duct booster fan to direct some of the air up to the living space. This greatly reduced the operating time of my mini splits over the whole summer.

I didn't measure the humidity level nor did I calculate the amount of hot water used and only took a quick glance at my electric bill to see if anything outrageous stuck out but we are hot water hogs here perhaps spoiled by the cheap wood fired water we enjoy all winter.


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## Ashful (Mar 26, 2014)

Wow... I guess what I had seen was maybe not accurate.  I don't remember specifically where I read that they only do minimal cooling and dehumidification, although in re-watching Redbarn's posted video, I see Tom in Maine also states it won't do much to cool his shop.

I sent an email to Nyle yesterday morning, to ask about my application.  No reply yet, but will share when I hear something.


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## STIHLY DAN (Mar 26, 2014)

My geo spring takes out a gallon or more a day from the basement, I do not get condensation on pipes. There is a huge humidity difference in a 1200 sq basement. When its 90* in the bedroom I will throw a sweatshirt on and sleep on the futon down there.


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## velvetfoot (Mar 26, 2014)

This might put me over the edge and get me to try one.
How do you get rid of the condensate?  Is there a built in pump?  Tank that shuts the thing down if it gets full, like a dehumidifier?


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## Redbarn (Mar 26, 2014)

My Geyser has a plastic tube from the bottom of the unit, under the heat exchanger radiator.
I just put it into a 3/4" PVC pipe and run it (downhill) to the basement drain.
In summer there is a considerable amount of water, much less in winter.


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## Fred61 (Mar 26, 2014)

I didn't have a convenient way to drain the condensate so I purchased a small condensate pump with reservoir and It pumps the water out through the rim joist in to the flower bed.


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## SIERRADMAX (Mar 27, 2014)

These pumps are great.
http://www.amazon.com/Little-Giant-VCMA-15ULS-Condensate-horsepower/dp/B000AHT78O


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## Fred61 (Mar 27, 2014)

That's the one I bought!


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## Ashful (Mar 27, 2014)

Still no reply from Nyle...


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## Redbarn (Mar 27, 2014)

I bought mine from Tom in Maine. He has great contacts with Nyle (both are in Maine). Perhaps a PM to Tom might get an answer ?


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## Ashful (Mar 28, 2014)

Good idea.  I'll give him a try.  Thanks!


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## BoilerMan (Mar 29, 2014)

Joful said:


> and tend to shy away from DIY type appliances when it comes to plumbing, as they never seem to have a great track record in the long-haul.  I think we're probably only two or three decades out from learning PEX is the next polybutylene, or finally discovering the health effects of having your drinking water indefinitely soaking in polyethelene tubing.



Couldn't agree more with this statement.  Most do not remember PB and Shell's mess.  PEX, however has a proven track record in the heating application, I will bury it in a slab w/o hesitation, but it's all copper from there call me old school, heard headed........time will tell, and I may very well be wrong but that's not a chance I'm willing to take in my own home.  All copper here!

There is, however, no reason that anything that has pipe threads can not be piped in copper if you so desire.  My Nyletherm (first gen Geyser) has 1/2" FNPT, and it's suspended from the ceiling with unistrut and threaded rod with copper to the tank about 15' away.  Ducted it into the rooms above the mechanical room.

TS


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## lostDuck (Apr 21, 2014)

So does anyone no if GE Hybrid hot water heater at Lowes in CT is 599 out the door or 199 (with instant rebate)? 
Going to the store later this week and wanted to know what others paid in CT.

Thanks
-LostDuck


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## velvetfoot (Apr 21, 2014)

BoilerMan said:


> Couldn't agree more with this statement. Most do not remember PB and Shell's mess. PEX, however has a proven track record in the heating application, I will bury it in a slab w/o hesitation, but it's all copper from there call me old school, heard headed........time will tell, and I may very well be wrong but that's not a chance I'm willing to take in my own home. All copper here!


I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I seem to recall cross-linked poly. direct buried distribution cable being vulnerable to 'treeing', where moisture makes its way to the conductor and causes a fault.


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## mchasal (Apr 21, 2014)

lostDuck said:


> So does anyone no if GE Hybrid hot water heater at Lowes in CT is 599 out the door or 199 (with instant rebate)?
> Going to the store later this week and wanted to know what others paid in CT.
> 
> Thanks
> -LostDuck



I don't really know, but I'm looking forward to an answer as well. I'm considering driving the couple of hours from NY to pick one up in CT for that savings. 
As a point of info, it looks like when you place it in your cart online, it reflects the $599 price without any sort of confirmation on residency or who your power provider is. It also lists the instant rebate under the "plus up to $400 in rebates". So, I'm thinking that it's $199 total if you are eligible for that instant rebate. I guess that would mean there's some sort of statewide incentive that the seller gets in addition to that instant rebate.


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## BoilerMan (Apr 24, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I seem to recall cross-linked poly. direct buried distribution cable being vulnerable to 'treeing', where moisture makes its way to the conductor and causes a fault.


You are correct.  That is why I have an overhead electrical service.  As an electrician, I've repaired way too many underground electrical services, both in conduit and direct burial.  30 years seems to be the max life in our area.

TS


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## tom in maine (Apr 25, 2014)

A couple comments on this thread.
You can use a condensate pump to eliminate condensate. I have my Nyletherm on two cinderblocks. The condensate drain is coupled to a piece of garden hose that goes half way around the perimeter of my basement to the floor drain.
This works fine. If I did not have a floor drain, I would use a pump. 
I have another unit in my shop that is on a workbench. It only operates when I am at work since there is no demand when we are not open.
That one drains into a bucket. Maybe someday I will pump it. Probably not.

Relying on a HPWH for dehumidification seems to fit pretty well with an average household (whatever that is).
Most people I know are satisfied with the diminished humidity.


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