# Who makes the highest btu output FS pellet and multifuel stove



## andyc (Mar 3, 2010)

I'm not interested in a furnace application just a good high input/output FS stove.
I know that you have to put the fuel in to get the heat out.
I'm trying to get away from using any propane for heating, currently using an Austroflamm Integra FS (45,000btu) and a propane furnace to heat a 3500 sqft fairly tight and fairly well insulated house.
I like the idea of the Dell Point technology but I don't think 34,000 btu will do it, if they made one in the 75 to 100,000 btu range at a reasonable price and no problems with it I'd be very interested.
Andy


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## hossthehermit (Mar 3, 2010)

andyc said:
			
		

> I'm not interested in a furnace application just a good high input/output FS stove.
> I know that you have to put the fuel in to get the heat out.
> I'm trying to get away from using any propane for heating, currently using an Austroflamm Integra FS (45,000btu) and a propane furnace to heat a 3500 sqft fairly tight and fairly well insulated house.
> I like the idea of the Dell Point technology but I don't think 34,000 btu will do it, if they made one in the 75 to 100,000 btu range at a reasonable price and no problems with it I'd be very interested.
> Andy



3500 is a lot of square feet to heat with 1 space heater. If ya don't want a furnace I suggest 2 smaller stoves. BUT, that's just MY opinion


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## Lousyweather (Mar 3, 2010)

as far as I know, the harman P68 is the largest F/S unit, but even given that square footage you indicated, I dont think it will do it effectively........put me in for two stoves, at opposite ends of the house, also following code constraints


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## andyc (Mar 3, 2010)

Thanks Hoss for the suggestion, I have thought about that also but for me and the wife carrying bags of pellets up basement stairs and down the hallway isn't really an option. Wish I was younger all the time. LOL
I don't think it would take much more btu to handle it. With outside temps here in CT lately averaging 32'F the Integra is doing a pretty good job.When it gets down into the teens it's another story. This year so far have gone through 5 1/2 tons of pellets and about $600.00 for propane...roughly by my calculations about $14. to $15.00/day average.
Bought an Astoria 2 years ago and that didn't cut it. Brought the Integra back in and it's better but the Integra is going on 15 years old. Looking for something new. Anyone want to buy a good used Astoria?
Andy


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## jtakeman (Mar 3, 2010)

Andy,

Like hoss says furnace will do a better job of full house heating. But if a stove is what you want and don't mind a bit of a temp fluctuation about the house. There are 3 stoves that may come close Enviro Maxx(70,000BTU's), Enviro Omega(60,000BTU's) and the Harman P68(68,000BTU's). All three eat about 8 pounds of pellets an hour on there highest settings. That's very close to 4 bags a day.  

I have a Omega in a basement install(I know BAD!) 2k sqft. and it never has to go above the 3-3 Medium setting. About 4 Lbs an hour whens its running. I average 2 bags a day in the extreme cold. about 1 bag a day in the normal(this weather). Sweet stove and really cranks some serious heat! Eats even the crappy pellets very well. It also has burned corn and grass pellets with good heat. I will try cherry pits and the Acai berrys someday too. Hard to beat the multifuel feature and well worth the extra compaired to the Maxx. Even at 2 bags a day, I only clean it once a week. Otherwise I don't even open the door. Just keep the hopper full. agitator in the burnpot so NO daily scrapping! 

just my 2
jay


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## vvvv (Mar 3, 2010)

Might as well look into the COMBEX  technology


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## MCPO (Mar 3, 2010)

BLIMP said:
			
		

> Might as well look into the COMBEX  technology



From what I gather this Combex technology is basically a fan for combustion air and one for exhaust air or a picture that shows one motor doing both.  All I can find is Osburns sales literature/brochures but nothing to explain how Combex is supposedly better.
 Anyone familiar with it?


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## Pellet-King (Mar 3, 2010)

5 1/2 tons pellets, wow!! your heating a huge space , 3500 sq ft, i dont know your situation but if it's just 2 people better off to downsize, you made the choice of a large house, now pay the piper to heat it.
I'm sure it's nice place.......


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## jtakeman (Mar 3, 2010)

Gio said:
			
		

> BLIMP said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I checked them out a while back. In general. One motor is running both fans. Using the same speed for combustion and convection. Not sure I* bought *it and don't think there is an efficiency gain. Personally, I would want more convection to distribute the heated air. And you are not able to increase it with out increasing the combustion air. Only savings I quessed was a bit of electric. But then again you might be using more with one motor working much harder than 2?

Osborns max rating was only 45,000 BTU's Not much of a monster. No way it would handle 3k plus sqft! You would still need "1 1/2" of them puppies. Max sqft rating was around 2k I thinx!


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## summit (Mar 3, 2010)

For a big, multifuel heater, the Enviro will do the trick for you... since you reside in CT, i wonder how much of a multi fuel you need? are you burning alot of corn? I would not do the dell -point, as your Integra is a way better unit for output and efficiency, IMHO.
For a primary diet of wood pellets, in a BIG out put heater, you can't go wrong w/ a P68. You are doing good w/ that Integra btw: we have many out there, and nary an issue or negative comment about them. Very efficient unit.


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## Former Farmer (Mar 4, 2010)

5 1/2 tons is a lot of fuel.  I am heating 3500sf with a Harman PB105 boiler and a Quadrafire Castile insert.  The boiler does the majority of the heating as well as supplying domestic hot water.  The insert is just supplement heat in the main living area and my wife likes to sit in front of a fire.  I have used just over 6 tons so far this year.  Have not used any propane other than for the clothes dryer. 

Just seem like a lot of pellets to put through a F/S stove.


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## andyc (Mar 4, 2010)

PKing, I wish I could downsize, but I'm going to die with what I've got...a lot of toys and stuff I just don't want to get rid of, so I need the space. Area consists of basement/pool table/rec room about 550 sqft the rest is approx. 1600 sqft main level and then the raised level is another 1460 sqft, kinda offset up not a true 2 story/floor situation kinda raised ranch situation. Stove is in the basement and hot air rises and has done well convecting the heat for many years. Stove runs 24/7 no T-stat...I guess I'm the T-stat/regulator. I've found through the years to heat the hell out of the basement and then open cool air from the garage in the basement to help the heated air rise into the upper areas. It works out to about a 10 to 12 hour cycle for best transfer. The wife wonders what's going to happen if I'm gone and how to deal with everything...I wonder how I'm going to deal with everything after she's gone...LOL...she's 12 years younger. The Omega has been one of the stoves I have been looking into. Yes there are only 2 living at home plus 2 dogs.

Summit, you're right I don't necessarily need a multifuel stove but I like the fact of clinker/ashdump features that they have...I have seen my share of clinkers and dumped who knows how much ash after 14 to 15 years of using a pellet stove almost exclusively for heat...the propane was added when we added onto the house in 2007. Prior to that the house was electric heat, house was about 1250 sqft and after installing the Integra in 1995 that's all I used was pellets for heat no more electric for heat after 1995. The pellet stove paid foe itself within 2 years of course pellets were only $135. to $150.00/ton. Back then it was only 2 to 3 tons max per year. I figure for a little over twice the area as before, burning 6 tons aint bad. I also figure that if I had not wasted the time using the Astoria I would have saved a bunch of pellets using the Integra instead. I think Astoria and lack of heat at 4 bags/day vs. Integra and good heat at 2 to 3 bags/day.
Andy


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## exoilburner (Mar 5, 2010)

andyc said:
			
		

> I'm not interested in a furnace application just a good high input/output FS stove.
> I know that you have to put the fuel in to get the heat out.
> I'm trying to get away from using any propane for heating, currently using an Austroflamm Integra FS (45,000btu) and a propane furnace to heat a 3500 sqft fairly tight and fairly well insulated house.
> I like the idea of the Dell Point technology but I don't think 34,000 btu will do it, if they made one in the 75 to 100,000 btu range at a reasonable price and no problems with it I'd be very interested.
> Andy



Why are you not interested in a furnace application?  Why not take advatage of your existing duct work used by your propane furnace?  It wouldn't cost you anything to get good heat distribution and register control.  Granted you would burn more pellets with a furnace but the comfort would be worth it.  You could heat completely with the pellet furnace and forget the propane.  Use the propane as your back-up heat.


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## sinnian (Mar 5, 2010)

You need a Traeger/Pinnacle furnace:  http://www.evergreenheat.com/pelletsolutions.htm#modelgbu130

Call Mark Norwood at Evergreen Heating!  Tell him Jeff sent you  ;-)


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## Fsappo (Mar 5, 2010)

andyc said:
			
		

> I'm not interested in a furnace application just a good high input/output FS stove.
> I know that you have to put the fuel in to get the heat out.
> I'm trying to get away from using any propane for heating, currently using an Austroflamm Integra FS (45,000btu) and a propane furnace to heat a 3500 sqft fairly tight and fairly well insulated house.
> I like the idea of the Dell Point technology but I don't think 34,000 btu will do it, if they made one in the 75 to 100,000 btu range at a reasonable price and no problems with it I'd be very interested.
> Andy



I'm gonna get a ton of crap for this, but I bet if you used a Dell Point (now Paromax) Europa it will out heat that 45K btu Austroflamm.  In fact, wouldn't us giving you one to try for a year perhaps help prove what the capabilities are?  If you heated more of the home with a stove that used 34K btus of pellets (Can probably determine this with your propane useage and degree days)  How many years of data do you have for your current set up with propane usage and pellet usage?

I know the Europa wont (or shouldnt) heat 3500 square feet, but this may be a great litmus test of sorts.   Imagine if we could arrange to let you use one for a year?  Aint saying I could pull it off, but I would sure like to try something like this.

Whatcha all think?


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## andyc (Mar 5, 2010)

Quote from exoilburner

Why are you not interested in a furnace application?  Why not take advatage of your existing duct work used by your propane furnace?  It wouldn’t cost you anything to get good heat distribution and register control.  Granted you would burn more pellets with a furnace but the comfort would be worth it.  You could heat completely with the pellet furnace and forget the propane.  Use the propane as your back-up heat. 

The reason is the same for not adding a second stove upstairs...having to lug pellets up the stairs and down a long narrow hallway. When the addition was built, upstairs was where the furnace was located. The main purpose of the addition was a garage and I wanted to keep it a garage. Plus the logistics of ducting and venting and pellet prices escalating...so that's where the furnace went. If I had to redo it I'd have to re-think it.
 I have thought of a pellet furnace and some type of conveyor system through the floor to supply the pellets up, but I'm tired of doing projects like this, I enjoy them (projects)but you just can't walk into a HD store and buy a conveyor to handle this.
It's all gotta be custom made.
Thanks for your and everyones input.
Andy


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## andyc (Mar 5, 2010)

Quote from FrankS

I’m gonna get a ton of crap for this, but I bet if you used a Dell Point (now Paromax) Europa it will out heat that 45K btu Austroflamm.  In fact, wouldn’t us giving you one to try for a year perhaps help prove what the capabilities are?  If you heated more of the home with a stove that used 34K btus of pellets (Can probably determine this with your propane useage and degree days)  How many years of data do you have for your current set up with propane usage and pellet usage?
I know the Europa wont (or shouldnt) heat 3500 square feet, but this may be a great litmus test of sorts.  Imagine if we could arrange to let you use one for a year?  Aint saying I could pull it off, but I would sure like to try something like this.
Whatcha all think? 

Hell yeh, LOL
Frank, I would be willing to try this out. As I haved stated in other posts, I like the idea and technology behind the Europa stove.
My only concerns are the btu ratings as I have stated before...I wish they (Paromax) made a model in the 60 to 70k btu range.
I'd probably be all over that. 
I believe you are probably correct in your statements regarding the efficiencies of a 15 year old Integra and the newer Europa.

I have all documentation regarding pellet and propane usage since the addition was added in 2007, this is when the propane furnace was also installed. The propane invoices also show degree days between refills.
The only problem would be isolating propane for heat usage only...I also use the propane for cooking,dryer,on demand water heater for one bath, and a fireplace in the master bedroom (used only a few times...wife likes it ). There is only myself and my wife and two dogs living here so my thoughts of propane usage are 80% heat and 20% other over a year.
Refilling the propane is like clock work, fill in mid November (300-335 gallons) refill late February (300-350 gallons).

If you could pull this off, I would be willing to test and document the capabilities of the Europa in my home and post the results/findings on this forum. 
Thanks for your replies.
Andy


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## Fsappo (Mar 5, 2010)

Ok, right now Claude is preparing for our industries trade show.  When he gets back, I'll hit him with the idea.  I'm sure it is going to involve contracts, etc which will provide that you return the stove on X date in X condition, blah blah with the provision that if you want to keep the stove, you can buy it.  We would probably also ask that you document your findings here weekly along with any quirks or issues with the stove.  It would be great if you could have a running journal on you tube.  Does anyone else see any holes in this proposed idea?


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## andyc (Mar 5, 2010)

Frank, I have no issues with contracts other than the contract. LOL... Shouldn't be a problem.
utube ? I don't know how. Don't know if I would go to that extreme. Documentation weekly or daily okay.
Andy


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## summit (Mar 6, 2010)

I'd like to see the results..Franks; you're in NY,  can you get Yuengling beer down there? I'll betcha a 6 pack of yuengling beer 4 me vs a beer of your choice 4 you that the Integra outdoes the Dellpoint... its got another 10000 btu, and a way higher heat exchange area and convection fan. I've been running into these in our area for a long time, and they are great units... the old units like his are great, the new Integra 2s are really quite the rig, and you can program in heating periods set to run at whatever time you want, combustion air input speeds, self clean cycles, min and max rates for feeds, all to come on in a completely independent manner. Its an ultimate pellet geek device... It also costs over 5k.


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## Fsappo (Mar 6, 2010)

Summit, you got it.  But if the Europa does what I think it will do, you gotta come out to CNY and we'll drink the beer of your choice for the weekend.  If it the Europa doesnt out perform the Integra, then....you come to NY and we'll drink the beer of your choice for the weekend!

I used to sell the Austroflamms back in the day, I know about their nasty heat, which is why I want to use it as a comparison.  Or, something else may happen..the Europa heats about the same as the Integra, propane usage is the same, degree days are about the same and:
The Europa burned the same amount of fuel as the Integra from the Flock of Seagull days..which may disprove the ole "Europa uses less pellets" thing.    Or, the Europa puts the same BTUs into the home as the Integra but Andy here uses a ton or 2 less pellets.  Either way, It would be interesting.

Andy, what kind of equipment do you have to monitor the temps, etc?


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## Fsappo (Mar 6, 2010)

summit said:
			
		

> I'd like to see the results..Franks; you're in NY,  can you get Yuengling beer down there? I'll betcha a 6 pack of yuengling beer 4 me vs a beer of your choice 4 you that the Integra outdoes the Dellpoint... its got another 10000 btu, and a way higher heat exchange area and convection fan. I've been running into these in our area for a long time, and they are great units... the old units like his are great, the new Integra 2s are really quite the rig, and you can program in heating periods set to run at whatever time you want, combustion air input speeds, self clean cycles, min and max rates for feeds, all to come on in a completely independent manner. Its an ultimate pellet geek device... It also costs over 5k.



I think you can make all those adjustments with the Europa, except for programming when the heat will turn on and off.  Ash Managment, auger feed trim and combustion air all are extremely adjustable.  Of course, the default settings work great and I end up making things worse when I start playing with the buttons.  All for $4499 (currently)  And a battery back up.


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## andyc (Mar 7, 2010)

Frank, nothing hi-tech by any means...just thermometers (both mechanical and electronic) that are placed in various places around the house that are not subject to direct sunlight or drafts from doors opening etc.
I have used electronic cooking probes in heat exchanger tubes to get temps directly at the stove for various pellet comparisons and stove tuning.
This is the method I have used for years and believe it to be pretty accurate and consistant.
Andy


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## summit (Mar 7, 2010)

Franks said:
			
		

> Summit, you got it.  But if the Europa does what I think it will do, you gotta come out to CNY and we'll drink the beer of your choice for the weekend.  If it the Europa doesnt out perform the Integra, then....you come to NY and we'll drink the beer of your choice for the weekend!
> 
> I used to sell the Austroflamms back in the day, I know about their nasty heat, which is why I want to use it as a comparison.  Or, something else may happen..the Europa heats about the same as the Integra, propane usage is the same, degree days are about the same and:
> The Europa burned the same amount of fuel as the Integra from the Flock of Seagull days..which may disprove the ole "Europa uses less pellets" thing.    Or, the Europa puts the same BTUs into the home as the Integra but Andy here uses a ton or 2 less pellets.  Either way, It would be interesting.
> ...



you are on, Franks!


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## summit (Mar 7, 2010)

I think an older integra would be a good device to test against, too, since it is a manual start device, much like the dell point, so the whole pellets saved via auto operation thing would not be an issue: another unit to compare the results would also be the p38: another manual start unit.


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## Snowy Rivers (Mar 7, 2010)

I have seen a few 70K BTU stoves but without going to a furnace, heating 3500 feet is a chore.

We are heating 2400 feet in a Ranch style house and use 3 stoves. We choose which one will be pulling duty based on the outside temp,wind, cloud cover etc.

During very windy and cold weather, at least two stoves will be online.

Now another plus to having more than one unit is this, what do you do on a cold nasty and dark night when your ONE (1) stove decides to quit ??? ( its midnight and blistering arsed cold out)

With mutiple units its a simple "turn the feed rate up a notch and go back to bed"

Had the Quad go down one night a few years back and it was 5F outside.

Both stoves were needed and the igniter decided the leave for parts unknown.

Now with a third stove in the house I simply have no issues. A failure is a minor anoyance rather than a serious problem.


Lots of choices

Good luck

Snowy


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## jtakeman (Mar 7, 2010)

I keep forgeting about the Bixby UBB, Its a 70,000 BTU monster and multifuel unit. But I have heard mixed reviews about them. The other forum seems more receptive to these stoves and the users seem happy with them. One neat thing is the control is totally programmable by the operator. Many features can be tweaked to user specs. I think rona(a member here) Has a bixby maxfire, Which is very simular just not as much heat output. Maybe he can chime in and give us his thoughts on them. As they do seem to be a bit over built or Almost too technical with there design on the feed system.

I wish more stoves were like that though. So many stoves lock you into there proprietary fuel curves and are not user adjustable. Same with other features of there program. Like my Omega's multifuel mode has a clean cycle(or fuel burn up-cleanup-Burns up the fuel in the burn pot or whatever they call it). It puts the stove in low fire mode for more than a bit and lowers the heat output. Kind of inoying when you need the extra heat on a cold day. Most of the time its not needed as there isn't an excess of unburned fuel in the burnpot. So you are stuck on low heat until it times out of it. It would be nice to adjust this feature in intervals and length of time of the cycle. Another reason I dont burn straight corn in my Omega. Maybe I will swap out this proprietary control for one of Bixbys controls and adapt it to my Omega? (Yes I am serious here!)

Maybe they will make a furnace or add on one of these days. Just hope it has a drop chute instead of the funny feed wheel system.


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## rona (Mar 7, 2010)

I have had a Bixby 115 for 3 years and also have a UBB that is on its second season.  
 Bixby stoves seem to generate a love-hate ownership. Meaning that yeah they are a little more complicated then a manual start and manual dump of the clinker but once the owner gets used to how they work they are a top of the line stove. 
The 115 puts out 50,000 btu and the UBB puts out 70,000 btu. The UBB is slightly more complicated as it lets you control the ash dum intervals , the convection fan speed via additional knobs rather then just the exh fan speed and the feed rate speed knobs found on the 115.
  The owner can purchase a cable to connect both the UBB and the 115 to their  computer and using free upgrades can fine tune how their stove operates. This cable also allows the owner to use Bixcheck which does a self diagnosis of 47 different functions of either models.  It also allows you to adjust the convection fan slightly  so the stove will be a little quieter  at lower settings. 
 Basically either one can be a simple as you want or if you like to tinker you can have fun doing that. either can be run via thermostat. You can program the 115 to shut down and restart automatically if you like or it can idle along like its big brother the UBB. 
  I have helped a lot of people via e-mail with problems with these stoves and most of the time they weren't given proper help via the dealer who sold it to them.
 Any stove can and will have problems at some point and when a company offers auto ignition and auto dumping of the clinker there is two additional problems  that a simpler stove won't have.
  The UBB had two software upgrades that I know of  and after that they run with no problems. The software is free so if a owner wants to update it isn't a big deal.
  I forgot to mention either stove will burn pellets or corn with a twist of a knob.


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## jtakeman (Mar 7, 2010)

Thanks rona,

I may need to pick your brain one of these days on the UBB. As in will it do the idle and restart on thermostat? I don't care so much about the time controlled start as much as the Auto restrart with thermostat. As I always use my programable stat to do my timing of when I need heat.

Thanks again
jay


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## rona (Mar 7, 2010)

The UBB with a thermostat will just idle with a pilot light or low flame until the thermostat calls for heat. Then it will ramp up until the room reaches your desired temp setting then it will idle again.  Remember it is designed more as a furnace  rather then a stand alone stove such as the 115 that will start and stop via the thermostat.


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## andyc (Mar 7, 2010)

rona & jay, thanks for the info on the UBB. I have heard of Bixby, never seen one will look into that. I have never used a T stat and have always run in manual.
Thanks again.
Andy


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## jtakeman (Mar 12, 2010)

Andy,

I was checking the Eviro site today and noticed a few new stoves they released. They have a cast iron M55 version and a monster called the Maxx M. Not much info on the maxx m, But I assume its a maxx in multi fuel clothing. SO its total max BTU's will be higher than the Omega.

Hope they release more info soon!
jay


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## andyc (Mar 12, 2010)

Jay, Thanks for the update. I will look into them. I have not found alot about the UBB with burning pellets...some  corn info but  few are using pellets. I like the idea of it with being able to change parameters for fine tuning and such. I'll keep looking around.
Thanks again.
Andy


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