# Insulation under the floor



## BrowningBAR (Jan 27, 2013)

I have an old home. Super old home. I have no basement or crawl space. I do not have any real access to under the flooring unless I pull up the flooring.

My problem/hurdle is that I have cold air coming up from the floor. I can feel air leaks in several areas of the floor. There are some spots that will produce surface temps below 40 degrees on cold days.

I feel this is one of the main areas I need to tackle in order to decrease my heat loss. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what needs to be done to correct this problem.

General info:

All flooring is wood flooring.
Carpeting is not an option. (combination of cost and old carpeting was removed, lots of time spent on refinishing the wood flooring)
The flooring is old. The kitchen flooring is quite possible the original wood flooring.


----------



## Trilifter7 (Jan 27, 2013)

I am curious about this as well. I have an older home with a crawl space and my wood and tile floors are not insulated underneath either. I regularly see 40-45 degree temps on my floors. I don't have any draft coming from mine like you have but it is def a big heat loss. I am very interested in what anyone recommends here.


----------



## BrowningBAR (Jan 27, 2013)

Trilifter7 said:


> I am curious about this as well. I have an older home with a crawl space and my wood and tile floors are not insulated underneath either. I regularly see 40-45 degree temps on my floors. I don't have any draft coming from mine like you have but it is def a big heat loss. I am very interested in what anyone recommends here.


I'm guessing I am going to need to pull up some of the flooring, but I want to make sure the solution is the correct one and I won't have to revisit this problem.


----------



## Hearth Mistress (Jan 27, 2013)

Same thing here too, random width original wood floors, 1860's floor over dirt, literally, in living room, floor in kitchen, from 1920's same thing. No foundation, crawl space, it's a pointed stone bank barn so every nook and cranny leaks.  I have a lifetime supply of silicone and foam insulation but have yet to have anyone ever come up with anything for the floors other than carpet or tearing up the floor and starting over.


----------



## BrowningBAR (Jan 27, 2013)

Hearth Mistress said:


> Same thing here too, random width original wood floors, 1860's floor over dirt, literally, in living room, floor in kitchen, from 1920's same thing. No foundation, crawl space,


Same exact thing for me. Pull up the flooring I have dirt and rock. If I can find a way to seal the parameter under the flooring I think that will cut down on the incoming air. But I have no idea if this is correct or what materials I need to use.

But, If we can find a solution to this, I think it would help both of us out. I feel this is one of my bigger heat losses at the moment. This and the attic. The attic I can plan for. The underneath is a huge question mark.


----------



## Hearth Mistress (Jan 27, 2013)

We have an engineer scheduled to come out in two weeks to make some recommendations for the repairs we are about to get done thanks to Sandy. The house has been deemed structurally sound, but we want to maintain the original "feel" of the house with some upgraded things, like tyvek wrap such. I will pick his brain to see what he thinks. I wonder if there is a tyvek type material or subflooring to insulate old floors.  I've actually taken linen cloth and shoved it in the bigger cracks with a screw driver. I got that idea after watching a shop deck be restored in the history channel (minus the pitch tar of course)

I've saved this thread so I'll post what the engineer says.


----------



## Trilifter7 (Jan 27, 2013)

I just came across this post.... could be an option for you guys but would obviously require ripping up all the floor. Looks like its probably on the expensive side as well but gives a little different approach.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...d-now-with-pictures-2-2-10.46321/#post-590841


----------



## BrowningBAR (Jan 27, 2013)

Hearth Mistress said:


> We have an engineer scheduled to come out in two weeks to make some recommendations for the repairs we are about to get done thanks to Sandy. The house has been deemed structurally sound, but we want to maintain the original "feel" of the house with some upgraded things, like tyvek wrap such. I will pick his brain to see what he thinks. I wonder if there is a tyvek type material or subflooring to insulate old floors. I've actually taken linen cloth and shoved it in the bigger cracks with a screw driver. I got that idea after watching a shop deck be restored in the history channel (minus the pitch tar of course)
> 
> I've saved this thread so I'll post what the engineer says.


If the engineer seems to be respectable and offers good solutions, send me his info after you've spoken with him.

I need to know how much cost I need to plan for to get this issue solved, so I might as well have him come out here now than later.


----------



## BrowningBAR (Jan 27, 2013)

Trilifter7 said:


> I just came across this post.... could be an option for you guys but would obviously require ripping up all the floor. Looks like its probably on the expensive side as well but gives a little different approach.
> 
> https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...d-now-with-pictures-2-2-10.46321/#post-590841


Good find!


----------



## Highbeam (Jan 29, 2013)

Hearth Mistress said:


> I wonder if there is a tyvek type material or subflooring to insulate old floors. I've actually taken linen cloth and shoved it in the bigger cracks with a screw driver. I got that idea after watching a shop deck be restored in the history channel (minus the pitch tar of course)
> 
> I've saved this thread so I'll post what the engineer says.


 
My wood subfloor is made of 1.5" thick t&G boards so not air tight. In the early 1960s the method of construction was to cover the decking boards with tar paper and then install the hardwood floors or underlayment for carpet on top of that. The tar paper provides the air seal.


----------



## BrowningBAR (Jan 29, 2013)

Highbeam said:


> My wood subfloor is made of 1.5" thick t&G boards so not air tight. In the early 1960s the method of construction was to cover the decking boards with tar paper and then install the hardwood floors or underlayment for carpet on top of that. The tar paper provides the air seal.


For Mistress and myself, when you pull up the wood floor, there is no sub-flooring. Just large, hand carved beams, rock, and dirt.


----------



## Highbeam (Jan 29, 2013)

So you're walking on what more modern builders call "subfloor"? One layer of wood and then dirt?


----------



## BrowningBAR (Jan 29, 2013)

Highbeam said:


> So you're walking on what more modern builders call "subfloor"? One layer of wood and then dirt?


Yep.


----------



## ScotO (Jan 30, 2013)

BrowningBAR said:


> Good find!


 I agree, that is a great post.  I'm glad I came into this forum tonight, I have a similar situation in the fireplace room.  It's a crawlspace as well, and I am definately going to do something like this to it.  Possibly this summer.  I may just bite the bullet and pay to have it done if someone local is set up to do it.


----------



## begreen (Feb 2, 2013)

BrowningBAR said:


> Yep.


 
Was this part of the house a cow barn at one time in the past?


----------



## BrowningBAR (Feb 2, 2013)

begreen said:


> Was this part of the house a cow barn at one time in the past?


Unless every room was a cow barn, I would have to say no. Every room on the ground floor is like this (kitchen, dining room, living room, Summer kitchen/den).

Each room has a part of the floor that can hit the low 40s to upper 30s. I'm saying this is one of the key areas that needs to be address in terms of my heat loss issue. Even before windows and doors.


----------



## begreen (Feb 2, 2013)

The reason I ask it that my folks looked at a stone building like your home in CT. The floors were similar and it's history was a cowbarn. It was a long large galley of a space that got subdivided into rooms.

Have you considered putting down an air seal, insulation and a top flooring? It sounds like that could make a nice difference.


----------



## BrowningBAR (Feb 2, 2013)

begreen said:


> Have you considered putting down an air seal, insulation and a top flooring? It sounds like that could make a nice difference.


Could you point me in the direction as to what you mean by an "air seal?"

And by top flooring, do you mean like something that highbeam was talking about? A subfloor with tar paper on top then the hardwood flooring?


----------



## Bret Chase (Feb 2, 2013)

BrowningBAR said:


> For Mistress and myself, when you pull up the wood floor, there is no sub-flooring. Just large, hand carved beams, rock, and dirt.


that must be an ooooooold house... mine was built in 1865... and I've got 1 1/8" pine subfloors and 1" pitch pine flooring.... when I pulled out the carpet in the living room there was *real* linoleum and newspapers dating to 1962 under the carpet....


----------



## BrowningBAR (Feb 2, 2013)

House dates back to 1741.


----------



## boatboy63 (Feb 2, 2013)

We are also in a similar situation. The main part of our house was built in the 1890's. There is enough crawlspace clearance to reach about half way back. We attempted to put fiberglass batts under there several years ago, but it didn't work the best. Most of the floor joists range from 12" - 27" which throws the standards out the window. The joists are all nailed into beams under the house and they sit on stone pillars. The main part of the house does not have a foundation like most newer houses do. Most of these batts have now fell and are laying on the dirt. I gave up on it.

I did do a remodel of a bathroom floor a few years ago that really helped out. That room used to be the coldest in the house but now can be heated much easier. The floor is at least 30 degrees warmer. I ended up pulling cabinets, sink, toilet, washer, and dryer out. The floor had alot of wave to it and was nowhere near level. Floor had the 12" peel and stick tiles on it. I peeled them from the higher areas and put those down on the lower areas to level it out. Next, I took 7/16" OSB and laid on top of this then caulked in all the joints of the OSB. I then took the thin foam roll used for installing beneath the laminate and laid it down on the OSB. I then cut and installed new laminate flooring and put all fixtures back in there. I swear, it made more difference than I would have ever dreamed of. If you had any plans of installing carpet on your floors, you could do as I did with the OSB and see a definite difference. I can only guess it is because of the glue in the OSB along with the foam acting as insulators.

Trust me...I know your pain when it comes to trying to insulate a 120 + year old house. When we first inherited it in 2000, we nearly froze to death. In the next few years, we even went so far as to pull off the vinyl siding that was put on the house in 1995 and the masonite siding that was put on in the early 80's. We put insulation anywhere in the walls that we could and even nailed 2"x2" lumber to the old wall studs and added more insulation in those cavities. I then covered them with 7/16" OSB and Tyvek, then put the vinyl siding back up. I even installed thermopane windows. Before doing all this, the house was so drafty, you could even see curtains move during high winds. It is much easier to heat now and it doesn't have the hot/cold spots all thru the house like it used to. It stil would not compare to a newer house, but it is about as good as it gets.


----------



## begreen (Feb 3, 2013)

BrowningBAR said:


> Could you point me in the direction as to what you mean by an "air seal?"
> 
> And by top flooring, do you mean like something that highbeam was talking about? A subfloor with tar paper on top then the hardwood flooring?


 
Yes, a layer of roofing felt or similar air barrier is what I meant. Then top it with flooring. For more insulation you could put foam sheeting or Durock NextGen underlayment down before the top flooring. There are some products out there meant for basement floors that have insulation built in and a laminate flooring on top. Or use cork as a flooring. It's warm and quite attractive.


----------



## Bret Chase (Feb 3, 2013)

15# felt is an old school air seal for a floor.. that being said, when I pull up the hard pine flooring in my dining room (which has been COMPLETELY worn through in spots) I will be laying the same 15# felt under my new 3/4UL plywood... which will eventually be covered by laminate..


----------



## jharkin (Feb 4, 2013)

The use of subflooring or not also depends on the region and how wealthy the builders were.

My house, depending on what evidence you believe was built somewhere between 1790 and 1830. On my first floor I have inch thick tongue and groove board subfloor, some of which are over 30 inches wide (pointing to a pre -1800 date), topped with 5/8 T&G pine finish floor, that are fairly uniform 12 in wide and are face nailed with machine cut nails (pointing to post 1810). This all sits on vertical sawmill cut 3x5 (true) joists mortised into hand hewn 6x7 carrying beams that rest on unfinished tree trunks for posts in the basement. What we don't know is if the finish floor is original or replaced. We also don't know if the very wide subfloor boards are original or where just reclaimed from some older structure.

In contrast, upstairs was originally unfinished attic and has a only single layer of rough 5/8 T&G boards of varying widths (some quite wide like the downstairs subfloor).


I have been in museum houses that are older that have subfloors, and I have visited houses that are younger that don't. There is a lot of variation in the late 1700s/early 1800s. I think when you get back to pre-1700 though you pretty much never see a subfloor.


----------



## BrowningBAR (Feb 4, 2013)

Right now I am looking into expansion foam to spray in under the flooring.


----------



## Hearth Mistress (Feb 17, 2013)

BrowningBAR said:


> For Mistress and myself, when you pull up the wood floor, there is no sub-flooring. Just large, hand carved beams, rock, and dirt.



BB,

We finally got every thing worked out between my insurance co, mortgage co, contractor and engineer to start the repairs to our home from Sandy.  The engineer was ok, was pretty thorough but my contractor is awesome, does a lot of restorations on these old homes around here and REALLY knows his stuff, even my insurance adjuster was impressed. If you need a GC, let me know, he lives right over the bridge in Stockton, NJ, close by.

As far as insulating the floor, I asked the engineer what he recommends in these old houses. Of course, pulling it up was one of his options as well as the crawl space cement, which isn't an option here, no crawl space. He has seen success with spray foam but it can be hit and miss, usually with limited access points since the crap under the floor tends to be random at best.  He has also seen a great deal of what he called "over flooring" with a layer of tyvek, then a new subfloor (variety of materials available depending on application) and the new floor on top. May not be "code" in some areas and would raise your floor slightly but it would kill the draft.  This works well supposedly but just sounds a bit weird to me. I remember my dad putting in new wood floors in the old house I grew up in and was really surprised, and angry, to keep finding layers of floor as he started pulling the old floor up - made me think of that!

He started talking about floating floors too but lost me.

Anyone out there know about flooring? Does this over flooring method seem whacked out? What about floating floors?


----------



## BrowningBAR (Feb 17, 2013)

Crap. No solid answers and it actually eliminated some possible solutions. Thanks for the follow up, though.

Right now I have parts of the flooring with a surface temp of 32 degrees.


----------



## Hearth Mistress (Feb 17, 2013)

Hah, me too. I told my hubby to leave the fridge pak of soda out of the fridge, the floor was colder anyway!


----------



## semipro (Feb 17, 2013)

A floating floor is one held down by gravity only.  It is not held down by glue or nails or screws.


----------



## BrowningBAR (Feb 18, 2013)

I am seriously frustrated right now.


----------



## begreen (Feb 18, 2013)

We seem back at what I suggested earlier. Lay down a vapor/wind barrier, rigid foam insulation, plywood or osb and then top flooring. You could consider using structural insulated panels (SIPS) to cover over the existing tongue and groove sub-flooring, but it would be thicker, meaning more ceiling height lost.

A floating floor like Pergo is not tied to the existing floor. It just "floats" on top of the existing floor, sort of like carpet, but without the nailer strips.


----------



## BrowningBAR (Feb 18, 2013)

begreen said:


> We seem back at what I suggested earlier. Lay down a vapor/wind barrier, rigid foam insulation, plywood or osb and then top flooring. You could consider using structural insulated panels (SIPS) to cover over the existing tongue and groove sub-flooring, but it would be thicker, meaning more ceiling height lost.
> 
> A floating floor like Pergo is not tied to the existing floor. It just "floats" on top of the existing floor, sort of like carpet, but without the nailer strips.


This is easier said than done. In the kitchen it would require all the cabinetry and appliances to be removed and the flooring pulled up. In the living room, it would require losing more head space to a room that does not have a lot to begin with.

With all the talk of "insulating is cheap" this is proving to be otherwise.


----------



## jharkin (Feb 18, 2013)

Insulating IS cheap in a frame house with a traditional basement. Not so much in a stone house....


All these contractors who suggested ideas like putting down tyvek on the old floor to lay a new one, what do they plan to do to prevent the humid air thus trapped between the soil and the underfloor from rotting all your floor joists? If they don't have an answer for that I wonder if they are the expert they claim to be.


----------



## ScotO (Feb 18, 2013)

jharkin said:


> Insulating IS cheap in a frame house with a traditional basement. Not so much in a stone house....
> 
> 
> All these contractors who suggested ideas like putting down tyvek on the old floor to lay a new one, what do they plan to do to prevent the humid air thus trapped between the soil and the underfloor from rotting all your floor joists? If they don't have an answer for that I wonder if they are the expert they claim to be.


 I believe that COULD be done, but you would most definately want some kind of ventilation there (under the floor).  Maybe cutting in vents on both ends of the floor to the outside, or cutting in a vent or two and putting a pipe up through a wall and out through the roof with a hydrophonic inline fan, but either way you are talking some serious work to do that.  Sadly, I don't think there is an easy way about this.......I liked the product that FlatbedFord had put in his crawlspace.  I am seriously considering looking into that for my crawlspace this summer.....

http://neutocrete.com/


----------



## begreen (Feb 18, 2013)

BrowningBAR said:


> This is easier said than done. In the kitchen it would require all the cabinetry and appliances to be removed and the flooring pulled up. In the living room, it would require losing more head space to a room that does not have a lot to begin with.
> 
> With all the talk of "insulating is cheap" this is proving to be otherwise.


 
Sorry, sounds like the unconventional construction makes this house a challenge no matter what. I really wonder if it was originally designed to be a residence.


----------



## BrowningBAR (Feb 18, 2013)

begreen said:


> Sorry, sounds like the unconventional construction makes this house a challenge no matter what. I sincerely wonder if it was originally designed to be a residence.


It's been a residence since the early 1800's. Possibly further, but we have not checked the records beyond that as to how the structure was used.

The issue seems to be that whenever the house was added-on to, or renovated, over the last 200+ years the updates have been done by cutting corners.

Spoke with my father in-law. When they first bought their farmhouse they used hay bails around the parameter in the areas that they had draft problems. I'm going to give that a try and see if that gives us any hint as to where the leaks are coming from.


----------



## jharkin (Feb 18, 2013)

BrowningBAR said:


> The issue seems to be that whenever the house was added-on to, or renovated, over the last 200+ years the updates have been done by cutting corners.


 

I hear that!  I generally have more trouble undoing bad post-1960 renovation work than with anything to do with the original structure....


----------



## begreen (Feb 18, 2013)

BrowningBAR said:


> It's been a residence since the early 1800's. Possibly further, but we have not checked the records beyond that as to how the structure was used.
> 
> The issue seems to be that whenever the house was added-on to, or renovated, over the last 200+ years the updates have been done by cutting corners.
> 
> Spoke with my father in-law. When they first bought their farmhouse they used hay bails around the parameter in the areas that they had draft problems. I'm going to give that a try and see if that gives us any hint as to where the leaks are coming from.


 

I used to do that in CT. It helped a lot, but it also attracted lots of rodents that took advantage of the warm safe nests.


----------



## Ehouse (Feb 18, 2013)

Wow! tough problem!  lemme take a stab at it, nothing to lose. 

I would first inspect your sills (if any).  If they rest right on the ground they may be your first priority.  If they are sound, consider jacking up the house to give your self some working room.  If they are not, jack up the house and replace them.  You can then pour or lay up a stem wall (on a footer), or do one with treated lumber.

If you are lucky, you may have a section with lower grade along one side of the house, in which case you could dig down to achieve your crawl space. 

This may sound expensive, but get some estimates. 

Google "crawl space heating plenum" for an alternative treatment once you have a workable space.

Ehouse


----------



## BrowningBAR (Feb 18, 2013)

Ehouse said:


> Wow! tough problem! lemme take a stab at it, nothing to lose.
> 
> I would first inspect your sills (if any). If they rest right on the ground they may be your first priority.


Sills?



> If they are sound, consider jacking up the house to give your self some working room. If they are not, jack up the house and replace them. You can then pour or lay up a stem wall (on a footer), or do one with treated lumber.


You can't jack up a stone house.



> If you are lucky, you may have a section with lower grade along one side of the house, in which case you could dig down to achieve your crawl space.


Not an option.



> This may sound expensive, but get some estimates.


Every option appears to be a) expensive and b) not a complete solution.
Thank you for taking a stab at it, though. There must be a solution out there.


----------



## BrowningBAR (Feb 18, 2013)

begreen said:


> I used to do that in CT. It helped a lot, but it also attracted lots of rodents that took advantage of the warm safe nests.


Well, Mice already like to visit. Maybe if we give them a home outside they won't come in?


----------



## Ehouse (Feb 18, 2013)

I didn't see where you said it was stone, sorry, but then the walls must continue down to some kind of footer right? So what precludes you from excavating a crawl space?  I'm not trying to be dense, but by excavating I mean hand digging or having it dug.  You must have some access to be able to tell us what's down there.


----------



## Hearth Mistress (Feb 18, 2013)

Looks like BAR and I are SOL. My GC is awesome, it was the engineer that made the floor recommendations. But ehouse to answer your question, no, there is no sill plate or footer to speak of. To be honest, after really looking at how this house was built, I can't believe it's still standing and hasn't crumbled down the hill side!

It is a bank barn, literally built into a vertical acre of slate. It was built as a barn to have a place for mules and their keepers to stop along the way when they use to shuttle coal on the Delaware Canal (across the street) from Bristol to Easton, PA. The original part of the house, built in 1860 is stone, no foundation, just literally sitting on the slate and dirt.  The kitchen that was added at the turn of the century also, no foundation, sitting on rocks and dirt. 

As far as trapping moisture between the layers of the floor and rotting the floor joists, they have been on rock and dirt over 100 years, don't know what's left down there to rot  

We tried the hay along the exterior kitchen wall last winter. Damn mice brought the hay IN the house and made nests in the cabinets! 

The Sandy repairs/ rennovations will be starting this week, if the township has my permits ready tomorrow. I'm hoping that a new roof and siding will cut most of the draft, then, we will tackle the kitchen floor


----------



## BrowningBAR (Feb 18, 2013)

Hearth Mistress said:


> We tried the hay along the exterior kitchen wall last winter. Damn mice brought the hay IN the house and made nests in the cabinets!


... crap.


----------



## Ncountry (Feb 18, 2013)

Thinking outside the box here. Pull out the fridge smash the ice maker valve with a hammer go out  to dinner. Report damage to insurance co. Voila!!  .Seriously, Having worked on many older homes similar to yours, most solutions are going to be costly. The most cost effective would be to BGs idea of laying down tarpaper , foamboard,  subfloor, and then finish flooring. This works well but will add a couple of inches to your flooring height. Tearing up the subfloor to expose the framing making it possible to insulate properly is quite an undertaking as well. Do you have any idea how much space is between the framing and the dirt?


----------



## BrowningBAR (Feb 18, 2013)

Ncountry said:


> This works well but will add a couple of inches to your flooring height.


Not possible for the living room.



Ncountry said:


> Do you have any idea how much space is between the framing and the dirt?


0"

That is an exact measurement.


----------



## Ehouse (Feb 18, 2013)

Nuts.  there's got to be a solution.  What about a loose blown in fill such as Perlite? Won't hold in moisture but will slow air flow and insulate, and a flooring jack to tighten up the plank floor (expansion joint at each wall).  Combined with the renovations tightening up the upper structure so air's not being sucked out above and pulled in below.


----------



## Ncountry (Feb 19, 2013)

BrowningBAR said:


> 0"
> 
> That is an exact measurement.


 
Nuts!! Not much room there.When remodeling a room it is not an unrealistic amount of work to tear up the existing  to the framing..Destroying a perfectly good floor to access the underside seems a little overly excessive and costly though.


----------



## Highbeam (Feb 19, 2013)

If you have 0" between the sill and the dirt then how do you have any crawlspace? Slab jack. Apparently the subgrade is quite firm and you do not need footers. Can you just pump grout into the area between the floor and the dirt to seal up the leakage? The beams will be unnecessary if the entire floor becomes a slab on grade setup.

You do not need to remove cabinets to appy a new floor with proper air seal. Of course it would be better but the cabinets themselves should be sealed fairly well.

Lastly, You have concluded that no work can be done to prevent air from passing through the floor. That air got under your house from the perimeter somehow. Seal that leak at the perimeter. Unvent your crawlspace. brick and mortar around the perimeter to a height above the sill.

I am most confused about how you state that the sill plate is on the dirt but somehow air is coming up through the floor.


----------



## Hearth Mistress (Feb 19, 2013)

Highbeam, not sure how it got confused but there is no crawl space at my house or BARs. We live about 10 miles from each other and there are a lot of really old houses around here. Someone else posted an awesome solution for spraying concrete in the crawl space but no good to us.

I'm not sure what anything else you said means. All I know is I don't have a foundation, it's dirt and slate with the 1st floor being 18" thick fieldstone walls. There isn't a plumb line anywhere in the house, floor, ceiling, etc. I still have plaster and horsehair in my attic and when the engineer was up there assessing damage from hurricane Sandy he was pulling hand forged cut nails out of the beams as souvenirs. Old, old construction makes for messy repairs or renovations.  

You are right that the air coming up from the floor is being pulled in from the perimeter but even plugging up every little crack we can find between the bottom of the siding and the ground with expanding foam, it's still not enough. It only seems to be an issue in my kitchen, the part built turn of the century is my draft hole. If you stand with a lit match in front of any of the drawers or cabinets, the draft will blow out the match. The stove is in the adjoining room and doesn't help matters sucking the cold air in even more.

It's a challenge for sure but I'm hoping that with new insulation and siding it will help some.  My GC dropped off samples of Handi Plank today, evidently this cement board siding is a great insulator, we will know soon


----------



## BrowningBAR (Feb 19, 2013)

Highbeam said:


> If you have 0" between the sill and the dirt then how do you have any crawlspace?


No crawl space.



> Slab jack. Apparently the subgrade is quite firm and you do not need footers. *Can you just pump grout into the area between the floor and the dirt to seal up the leakage?* The beams will be unnecessary if the entire floor becomes a slab on grade setup.


No.



> You do not need to remove cabinets to appy a new floor with proper air seal. Of course it would be better but the cabinets themselves should be sealed fairly well.


I do need to remove the cabinets as the wood floor goes under the cabinets. This is not your typical Home Depot bought wood flooring. This wood flooring is about 200 years old, very wide, very thick, and very hard. The cabinetry would need to be removed.




> Lastly, You have concluded that no work can be done to prevent air from passing through the floor. That air got under your house from the perimeter somehow. Seal that leak at the perimeter. Unvent your crawlspace. brick and mortar around the perimeter to a height above the sill.


Again, there is no crawl space. There is no concrete foundation. There is no sill as you are imagining it.



> I am most confused about how you state that the sill plate is on the dirt but somehow air is coming up through the floor.


There is no sill plate. There are massive, hand carved beams that act as structural support with some sort of stone foundation at the corners.


----------



## Highbeam (Feb 20, 2013)

I am finding it difficult to give you ideas since you have been unable to describe your home construction. Every house with studs in the walls has a sill plate, it's that piece of wood that the bottom of the studs nail to. Perhaps regional differences on what you call things. The crawlspace that you have may not be big enough to crawl in but if you have space under the floorboards, then you have a crawlspace. Time for a picture? You seem very motivated to remedy the cold floors.


----------



## Hearth Mistress (Feb 20, 2013)

There lies the problem, there are no studs in stone walls so no sill plate. There is no crawl space, it is maybe an inch, if that between the bottom of the house and ground. It's gaps all over as the earth settles, so has the house over the last 100 or so years but not even enough to get your hand under the house and no real dirt to dig out, its slate.

I have to get some "before" pictures for my insurance company to track the progress of the repairs. I'll post pics soon.


----------



## Highbeam (Feb 20, 2013)

Thanks folks, it is very confusing. You seem to live inside a pile of rocks standing on a pallet! If for nothing else other than the coolness factor I would love to see the pictures.


----------



## BrowningBAR (Feb 20, 2013)

I have some pics of the third section of the house that shows the beams and wall support. Probably won't be able to post them until tonight or tomorrow morning.


----------



## BrowningBAR (Feb 20, 2013)

Highbeam said:


> Thanks folks, it is very confusing. You seem to live inside a pile of rocks standing on a pallet!


This is very accurate.


----------



## ScotO (Feb 20, 2013)

Highbeam said:


> Thanks folks, it is very confusing. You seem to live inside a pile of rocks standing on a pallet! If for nothing else other than the coolness factor I would love to see the pictures.


For houses built in the 18th century like BBar has (1700's), most of them are pretty much just that!  They are very-well built structures to stand for close to 300 years, but they were hacked out of logs and stones by hand back in those days.....thats all the pioneers had to work with.


----------



## BrowningBAR (Feb 20, 2013)

Highbeam said:


> If for nothing else other than the coolness factor I would love to see the pictures.


Growing up in Florida, where every home is built on a solid concrete foundation, it was extremely odd to see the underneath of this home. My exact quote when I looked under the flooring was; "Wait, that's it?!"


----------



## ScotO (Feb 20, 2013)

I've seen the pics of your house before BBar and I love that place.....is that thread still on here somewhere?


----------



## Highbeam (Feb 20, 2013)

I can seal a pile of rocks with shot-crete.


----------



## BrowningBAR (Feb 20, 2013)

Highbeam said:


> I can seal a pile of rocks with shot-crete.


First you need to find the spots that are leaking.


----------



## BrowningBAR (Feb 20, 2013)

Scotty Overkill said:


> I've seen the pics of your house before BBar and I love that place.....is that thread still on here somewhere?


https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/replacement-doors.89769/#post-1170850


----------



## Ehouse (Feb 20, 2013)

I was just looking up some old time banlo/fiddle tunes and came across "Puncheon Floor" and I remembered what that was.  The next step up in luxury from a dirt floor was a puncheon floor made from half round logs snugged up next to each other.  You seem to have a "plank on puncheon" adaptation.  It was either built the way it is originally, or or perhaps some 'tweeners" were removed later to make it easier to lay the planks flat.  I'd bet there was dirt fill all up around the puncheons early on.  Sorry that doesn't help with your problem, but it gives you another avenue for research.  You might be able to get some grant money for restoration, especially if it's in a historic district or is on the historic register.

Ehouse


----------



## BrowningBAR (Feb 20, 2013)

Here you go. The wood beam that runs under the wall is sitting directly on dirt. The beams are also directly on the dirt and rock. there is no air gap. I left the image large so you could see additional detail.


----------



## ScotO (Feb 20, 2013)

BrowningBAR said:


> Here you go. The wood beam that runs under the wall is sitting directly on dirt. The beams are also directly on the dirt and rock. there is no air gap. I left the image large so you could see additional detail.


BBar, did you ever have any termite/borer damage in your home?  With all that wood in direct contact with the ground, I was just curious as we DID have termites in ours when we moved in.  I spent the money and had them taken care of, but they had been in the house since the early 60's (estimated), they did a LOT of damage.  We restudded walls, did some new floor joists, etc, and I termite-proofed all of that with vinyl barriers, etc......

have you ever treated your house for them?  Something to think about if you do take the floors up in your house....


----------



## BrowningBAR (Feb 20, 2013)

There were no signs of termite damage or activity during inspection and when we had the flooring up. Let's not look for additional problems 

The draft is killing me as it is. I don't need to think about the possibility of a termite problem as well.


----------



## ScotO (Feb 20, 2013)

BrowningBAR said:


> There were no signs of termite damage or activity during inspection and when we had the flooring up. Let's not look for additional problems
> 
> The draft is killing me as it is. I don't need to think about the possibility of a termite problem as well.


It wasn't my intention to scare you, bud.....not at all.  Just was curious.

Either way, the pic you just posted, is that recently taken?  Did you already start removing flooring in that house, or was that to level up floors or something (I see a porta-power in the pic, no?)

I am amazed by the craftywork those ol' colonials did, all by hand.....I love seeing hewn beam work, mortise and tenon, hand forged spikes and such.....mucho respecto for those men and women who hacked a living out of the wilderness....


----------



## BrowningBAR (Feb 20, 2013)

The picture was from six years ago when we redid the flooring in the third section of the home. At the time, I did not have a full understanding of the draftiness of the home. Otherwise something would have been done.

The room was carpeted. when the carpeting was removed there were several areas of the floor that needed repair and replacement. Some leveling took place as well, but it was more of an afterthought for the project. I would like to go in again and do a little more work on that aspect.

The beams and stone are impressive. The beams are essentially shaved down trees. They are massive. And making 24" thick walls out of stone ain't easy or light work, either.


----------



## save$ (Feb 20, 2013)

I wonder if the carpet stopped some ventilation and that let to the deterioration of the floor.   That existing system may be surviving because it has the draft you don't like.  Ever consider presenting your issue to "This Old House"?   if they can't help, they,might know who can..Beautiful home with much charm.


----------



## BrowningBAR (Feb 20, 2013)

save$ said:


> I wonder if the carpet stopped some ventilation and that let to the deterioration of the floor. That existing system may be surviving because it has the draft you don't like.


The damage to the floor was not rot. It was from excessive refinishing and sanding in spots and cheap repairs (cutting out sections to get to pipes and replacing it with plywood).



> Ever consider presenting your issue to "This Old House"? if they can't help, they,might know who can..Beautiful home with much charm.


We thought about it. Not specifically for this problem. But it is worth a try.


----------



## Hearth Mistress (Feb 21, 2013)

BrowningBAR said:


> Here you go. The wood beam that runs under the wall is sitting directly on dirt. The beams are also directly on the dirt and rock. there is no air gap. I left the image large so you could see additional detail


Yep! That is exactly what is under our floors too! Granted, your home is older than mine, 1860's but in those 100 years, doesn't look like much has changed!  Your home is beautiful, a true Bucks County gem.  Being a barn, mine is literally a stone square that has an addition to the side where the kitchen is and the 2nd floor over it.  At some point the covered the plaster with this god awful asbestos siding, glad that's coming off on the insurance dime, not mine, as part of my Sandy repairs.

Here is a photo a few days after Sandy when the crane was pulling the tree out of the second floor, if you look close, there's a guy way up in the tree with a climbing saw, he is 6ft 2" but looks like a bug in that massive tree! Here a photo of my stove, you can see the stone wall and window, which is at ground level, my living room is literally 3 feet under ground.

When I get the rest of the pictures taken , I'll post them.


----------



## Ehouse (Feb 21, 2013)

Beautiful yellow pine flooring! It'll last forever. Do you remember if the floor boards are tongue and groove or perhaps splined? If so, and all your floors are as tight as this one appears to be, much of your draft may be coming from the perimeter joint where the flooring meets the wall. There's a significant gap between the plank ends and baseboard in the photo. You could try stuffing some insulation in that joint and installing a toe trim piece against the baseboard.  The top joint between the baseboard and wall appears to have been caulked so that's ok. 

I love these old stoners.  A good friend has a beauty she's desperately trying to sell, as it's in forclosure.  Wish I had the loot.


----------



## Highbeam (Feb 21, 2013)

So can I assume that the wall with the electrical in it is just plaster smeared over a stack of rocks? To build this house did they first build rock walls kinda like firewood stacks to make up the exterior walls of the house and then go inside and lay those beams on the interior dirt floow between the rock walls? The picture does not show any rock walls and you say that the wood beam runs under the wall. Well that doesn't jive with the theory that these are stone walls.

You say you have 24" thick rock walls but somehow air is leaking into the space under your pallet floor.I must be missing something. How is air getting into the space under the floor? What does the exterior look like at grade level?  These 24" thick stone walls, is there mortar or something other than dry stacking?


----------



## save$ (Feb 21, 2013)

Hearth Mistress said:


> god awful asbestos siding, glad that's coming off on the insurance dime, not mine, as part of my Sandy repairs.
> 
> .


Glad you are not having to foot the cost of the asbestos removal.  That siding can either be covered up or removed.  If removed all the fed regs come into play.   You would think you were dealing with some sort of virus.    I can remember peeling asbestos apart and paying with mercury in my hands in our science lab in high school!


----------



## coldkiwi (Feb 22, 2013)

BB I see the flooring boards are not t&g which  may have helped slow down the draft.You have an icebox 6 to 10 inches away from your feet with only air between.You could try and seal the perimeter to stop the airflow but I am picking the cold stone and earth will CREATE its own Draft.I don't know how wet it is under the floor.You may be able to blow in fiberglass insulation under the floor,may work if it is DRY under the house .How did you seal the gaps between the flooring planks?There is some stuff called radiant barrier (the foil type) but I believe it needs a small air gap to work..


----------



## woodgeek (Feb 22, 2013)

Might be a job for a fog machine and pressurizing the house.....find where the smoke exits to find the gaps.....then seal the stone to the slate with some appropriate material. 

Sealing the perimeter should be enough to allow comfort....temp-wise no different than slab on grade in the climate...cold but not freezing.


----------



## Highbeam (Feb 23, 2013)

woodgeek said:


> Might be a job for a fog machine and pressurizing the house.....find where the smoke exits to find the gaps.....then seal the stone to the slate with some appropriate material.
> 
> Sealing the perimeter should be enough to allow comfort....temp-wise no different than slab on grade in the climate...cold but not freezing.


 
Where do you see slate? I agree that all this will take is sealing the edge to mimic a slab on grade setup. I wouldn't bother with spot sealing but would plan on sealing up the entire "edge" for a consistent look from the outside. Shotcrete or hand applied mortar. It would not preserve the exterior look but we don't know what that is anyway.


----------



## BrowningBAR (Feb 23, 2013)

The picture posted is of the third section, which is wood framed... in a very old way.

The stone sections have the stone walls sunk into the ground to an unknown depth. Just stone. No sill. I do not have a photo of the flooring pulled up in those sections.


----------



## woodgeek (Feb 23, 2013)

BBAR--

I get it.  Stone house with walls going into the ground, perhaps resting on ledge/stone underneath the property.  The joists supporting the floor are tied into the walls.  Your complaint of freezing floors would seem to require a lot of air infiltration under the floor.  If the (thin) airspace under the floor were tight, the floor would not get that cold.  There has to be an opening to the outside to let the air in, maybe a few 10s of square inches total would do it.  Could be a long crack running the perimeter of the house only 1/16" thick...like a crack under a sillplate, even though there is no sill.

If you find and seal that sucka, you will have a much warmer floor.  If the ground under the floor is dry, it will still be dry after the sealing.

You might be concerned about soil gases, and that could indeed be hard to seal in your layout, but you could also put a little neg pressure under there (after sealing) like a radon abatement fan.  Personally, I wouldn't worry about it.

Are the walls double with rubble fill??


----------



## G-rott (Feb 25, 2013)

IF you can't get to the beam/sill/rim that the floor joist are attached to you will have a difficult time finding and sealing the leaks.  One possible option would be low rise polyurethane foam.  It is intended to be pumped into wall cavities in existing structures. 

I think a big part of your problem is that you have a huge (the earth) thermal mass in contact with your home that is likely below freezing this time of year.  As well you have little or no thermal break(insulation or air space) between your framing and the cold mass.  This transfers the heat in the room directly out to the heat sink of stone and earth.  Thermodynamics tells us that heat moves to cold, seeking equilibrium. 

The polyurethane foam would fill and seal any voids eliminating air movement, your next step would be to add a thermal break to the flooring system and seal the walls to the floor, expanding foam and filler rod will be useful.  A foam underlayment with the seams taped, then the flooring treatment of choice.

The thicker the foam underlayment the better, the idea is to allow the room (warm) heat the floor faster than the earth sucks the heat away. 

On another note, where the earth is above the floor level any insulation you can add is a bonus, I have built miniature sips panels of foam and plywood and finished the top edge as a deep wainscot with a built up chair rail.  You loose a little space but gain a lot of "r" value compared to what you have now.

Good luck,
Garett


----------

