# PC going down and Microsoft is the anchor



## begreen (Apr 10, 2013)

This wasn't too hard to predict. I have spoken with more than one engineering lead on Win 8. Told them flat out that I thought it was a mistake and poorly designed. They protested but it looks like the market feels the same way. They're going to have to do something quick or the ship is going down and a whole lot of local jobs with it.

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Research-firm-PC-sales-plunge-as-Windows-8-flops-202387501.html


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## fossil (Apr 10, 2013)

Had an interesting conversation with a very smart computer tech (Windows guy mostly) here in Bend who has helped me with a couple of Win 7 issues...and this was back when Win 8 was just making its debut.  He'd been in on some preview type stuff for it, and he said to me words to the effect of "forget it".


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## begreen (Apr 10, 2013)

Yep, my sentiments exactly. I was told that the market just doesn't get it yet, but it will. I told him, you just don't get the market yet, but you will.


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## BrotherBart (Apr 10, 2013)

Little lesson IBM had to learn. They survived it but with teeth marks in their butt.

So glad I am not responsible for enterprise support anymore.


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## jharkin (Apr 11, 2013)

the minimal amount of time ive spent looking at it at work was not impressive. Feels like MS is trying to play catch up to the mobile craze and have this twisted idea that users want one unified look and feel across every device.

When I want a tablet, ill use a tablet. When I want a desktop machine its because I DON'T want to use a tablet.


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## Jags (Apr 11, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> So glad I am not responsible for enterprise support anymore.


Yeah - me to...

Uggg...Win8.  Using a mobile interface on an immobile workstation. THAT makes a lot of sense.  Makes me want to poke my finger into my monitor.  Just a suspicion, but I will bet that there will be an "update" to Win8 that will make it easily toggle to a more conventional PC interface.  It can actually be done now, but is a pain.

Microsoft being Microsoft.  Pinheads.


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## Pallet Pete (Apr 11, 2013)

Ray where are you ? You know you want to say something here ! 

 we have windows 8 at work and to be honest it is a piece of trash. I reloaded windows 7 on my machine. 

Pete


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## begreen (Apr 11, 2013)

The seem to get it right on about every other OS version. XP good, Vista ugh, Win7 nice, Win 8 bad.


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## jharkin (Apr 11, 2013)

begreen said:


> The seem to get it right on about every other OS version. XP good, Vista ugh, Win7 nice, Win 8 bad.


 
Just like Start Trek movies


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## Delta-T (Apr 11, 2013)

i had been a PC since the ealry 90's...DOS--->Vista. Had my CD drive crap out in Feb. trying to rip the Flash Gordon soundtrack CD to convert to MP3. It was time for a new machine anyways. My in laws have a newer laptop with Win8 so I went over there and tooled around on it a bit and decided to buy a Mac. We already had the Ipad, Ipods and Apple TV thingy, so it was pretty easy decision. So far, so good. Took my wife 4 days to figure it all out (mostly the touchpad instead of the mouse) and it really isn't any different from any of the older versions of windows in terms of interface. Click pretty icon, application opens...learn new icons. Either Win8 is before its time, or is way off the mark. I'm not sure. But, like everything else technology wise...just wait 6 months, it'll be obsolete..or there will be a newr one.


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## Jags (Apr 11, 2013)

Its way off mark.  It can't be before its time - Apple has had it for quite a while, already. (poking stick at MS for yet another rip off).


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## nate379 (Apr 11, 2013)

Windows 8?  7?  Never even heard of that.

I have XP my on my computer, works just fine.


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## Delta-T (Apr 11, 2013)

you know what ticked me off the most about W8? it was finding control panel....I actually had to read the help to find control panel.


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## begreen (Apr 11, 2013)

Jags said:


> Its way off mark. It can't be before its time - Apple has had it for quite a while, already. (poking stick at MS for yet another rip off).


 
Nah, I think they just overreached. If you have IOS on a workstation you'd be griping too. File management, multiple user accts., multiple open apps with side by side windows, etc.  are impossible on the iPad/iPhone.


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## Jags (Apr 11, 2013)

begreen said:


> Nah, I think they just overreached. If you have IOS on a workstation you'd be griping too. File management, multiple user accts., multiple open apps with side by side windows, etc. are impossible on the iPad/iPhone.


 
I meant the Apple mobile devices.


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## Retired Guy (Apr 11, 2013)

I remember trying to get win7 to look like 2000, (still my favorite). Looks like there is some add-ons t get the win7 look in win 8.
http://blog.laptopmag.com/make-windows-8-like-windows-7


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## Delta-T (Apr 11, 2013)

begreen said:


> Nah, I think they just overreached. If you have IOS on a workstation you'd be griping too. File management, multiple user accts., multiple open apps with side by side windows, etc. are impossible on the iPad/iPhone.


I pity the poor person who has to use their iPhone as a workstation...like fishin with a tennis racket.


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## fossil (Apr 11, 2013)

Well, speaking of my PC guy, I just got one of his e-mails he sends out from time to time:

*Window 8.1? Didn't Windows 8 just come out?*

"If you were having a slow day, you may have actually read my previous emails about Windows 8. To recap, I had said that I felt it was a "wait and see situation." I also cautioned that if you were expecting Windows 8 to be the first born child of Vista and Windows 7, you were in for a rude awakening.

Now before I continue, let me be clear: It's all very hush hush and the rumor mill is in full swing. You should also know that I am not privy to any insider information. I just read articles.

It is, however, fairly clear that Microsoft will be releasing a new version of Windows 8 and the rumor is, it will be called Windows 8.1. The reasons for why the experts think that will bore you to tears.

Now you know why I told you to hold off buying into Windows 8 too soon.

For those of you that ventured into Widows 8 (not a misspelling, more of a sentiment), you will have discovered this bizarre blend of a tile/app format that shoots you into a castrated desktop environment whenever it deems necessary. 

Well, if the rumors are true, "8.1" will have stuck the final spike through the heart of the Desktop environment, sending it off to techno-heaven once and for all. 

Good thing, bad thing?

That remains to be seen.

If the new version cleans up some of the awkwardness of Windows 8, it may be a very good thing. For my part, I find it extremely irritating that, after closing an application, in Windows 8, such as Word, I am left dangling in an almost useless Desktop environment, that leaves me wondering why I didn't join the Forest Service.

Reports are that this "new version" will launch sometime this Summer, I'll have more information as things unfold. Oh, and by the way... it is still unknown if existing Windows 8 users will get this upgrade for free, or have to pay. Just thought I'd mention that.

As always, I am here to help."


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## begreen (Apr 11, 2013)

Retired Guy said:


> I remember trying to get win7 to look like 2000, (still my favorite). Looks like there is some add-ons t get the win7 look in win 8.
> http://blog.laptopmag.com/make-windows-8-like-windows-7


 

You can just switch to the desktop for the Win7 look. It's the lack of easy access to basic controls and configurability of the desktop that sucks. And want to have fun, figure out how to shut the computer off.


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## fossil (Apr 11, 2013)

begreen said:


> ...want to have fun, figure out how to shut the computer off.


 
No sweat, I'm a gun owner.


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## begreen (Apr 11, 2013)

That'll do in a pinch, though I'd recommend the power switch if the intent is to be able to use the computer again.


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## jharkin (Apr 11, 2013)

The Elvis method....


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## PapaDave (Apr 11, 2013)

Did a backup to an SD card, replaced the drive in the new laptop (came with win8 and uefi) with an SSD and put Win 7 on it, then changed to Mint.
I'm seriously considering wiping the original drive and using it as a backup (750 gb).
I still remember (and I'm a relative newb to pc) loading DOS, _*then*_ Windows.....with about a bazillion floppies.
Mucho fun.
Brother bought a laptop last year and he uses the power button to turn off the thing. I'm waiting for a phone call,......any time now.
Is it seriously too difficult to click a couple times for that? duh


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## rideau (Apr 11, 2013)

Have a sister who does medical research who told me the other day she loves windows 8.  Said i t is just like anything else new...uncomfortable until you get used to it.  She sat down and familiarzed herself with it, and says it's great.


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## JoeyD (Apr 12, 2013)

PapaDave said:


> I still remember (and I'm a relative newb to pc) loading DOS, _*then*_ Windows.....with about a bazillion floppies.
> Mucho fun.
> Brother bought a laptop last year and he uses the power button to turn off the thing. I'm waiting for a phone call,......any time now.
> Is it seriously too difficult to click a couple times for that? duh


 
I started on DOS 3.1. I skipped the first couple of Windows versions but used Windows 3.1 and just went to DOS if I ever wanted to do any gaming. I remember having drawers full of floppies with backups of my backups. My first computer had 5 1/4" floppies that really were floppy. That machine cost $2000 and had 30 MB hard drive, all I would ever need.

FWIW with the newer Windows, I'm not sure about 8, using the power button to power down is proper. It has been that way for around 10 years.


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## Jags (Apr 12, 2013)

I can pull out some 8" floppy disks if ya want to see them.


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## pen (Apr 12, 2013)

Jags said:


> I can pull out some 8" floppy disks if ya want to see them.


 


As to windows 8, bought a laptop a few months back and of course got stuck with it. Was in a need-a-computer-today situation.

I'm not impressed with Win 8 at all, even after giving it a several month trial period. Just seems unfinished / like nobody tested it before putting it out.

Also some things are just plain hard to figure out how to do on there, and if they are an action that one only does once in a great while, time to lose another 20 mins trying to relearn again forgetting what you did to make it work 2 months earlier. 

Just plain awkard IMO.

pen


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## jharkin (Apr 12, 2013)

The first PC we ever had (a 7MHz 8086 Tandy 1000)  ran DOS 2.0   I still remember spending hours tweaking config.sys playing around with all the himem.sys and emm386 settings to tweak the memory settings and get specific programs to work.  I completely wore out my Peter Norton DOS guide book....

I don't miss those days.


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## Jags (Apr 12, 2013)

jharkin said:


> I don't miss those days.


 
Truer words never spoken.


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## Delta-T (Apr 12, 2013)

Jags said:


> I can pull out some 8" floppy disks if ya want to see them.


this is the punchline to a joke I heard that starts out:
"so 2 retired prgrammers walk into a topless bar in West Palm Beach......"

no offense to memebers from West Palm of course.


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## MishMouse (Apr 12, 2013)

Did you ever notice for any serious windows issues, you always have to go back to C:>

For me I was unlucky enough to buy I new computer when Vista was the only choice.
Honestly I always considered windows one of the biggest viruses out there.


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## maple1 (Apr 12, 2013)

nate379 said:


> Windows 8? 7? Never even heard of that.
> 
> I have XP my on my computer, works just fine.


 
+1. XP Pro. Gonna ride it until it runs completely out of gas & there is no more gas to be had.


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## Mrs. Krabappel (Apr 12, 2013)

H8 W8


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## Swedishchef (Apr 12, 2013)

I have windows XP Pro as well...a legit copy nonetheless and I won't ever part with it. Only problem is that I wish I had a 64 bit OS to support more ram. I am maxed at 4 gigs...


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## jharkin (Apr 12, 2013)

I thought I would never give up XP but I took the jump to 7 and really like it. All the Vista problems are fixed and its the first Windows release ever that I have not had a single blue screen. Its fast and rock solid stable. 

8... no way tho.


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## ScotO (Apr 12, 2013)

I, too, loved my XP.  I wasn't impressed at all with Vista (parents got a computer with it and I hated it).  Our newest PC (around a year or so old now) and our laptop both have Windows 7 and we love it......

I'll NOT be getting anything with '8'......


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## fossil (Apr 12, 2013)

I have no complaints about Win7...and I've run nothing but MS products since ~89.  (Before that it was HPBasic on an HP-85 doing all my own coding).  I do like my new iPhone5, though


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## ScotO (Apr 12, 2013)

fossil said:


> I have no complaints about Win7...and I've run nothing but MS products since ~89. (Before that it was HPBasic on an HP-85 doing all my own coding). I do like my new iPhone5, though


I wish that Mac would make a Windows-compatible iPhone (of course we know WHY they won't).....that's one of the main reasons I WON'T buy an iPhone.  I have literally hundreds of songs on my phone and tens of thousands of songs on my PC, I like to be able to put them on and off the phone/computer without converting them to another format.


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## Swedishchef (Apr 13, 2013)

So win7 is the next best thing after XP? Maybe I will give it a try when I build my new machine...

I agree Scotty: I received an iPod as a gift and have not put any music on it. In fact it is full of kid apps and my son plays with it. I, on the other hand, use a Sony Walkman MP3 player. I simply copy and paste my mp3s....


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## billb3 (Apr 13, 2013)

The tablet paradigm isn't going away.
Win and iOS.


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## BrotherBart (Apr 13, 2013)

Hard to picture the business office desktop going to tablets.


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## jharkin (Apr 13, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> Hard to picture the business office desktop going to tablets.


 
It won't, nor will engineering CAD workstations (used to be all Unix now windows) or artist/animator systems (Mac). Tablets just suck for content creation.

But for home web surfing and content consumption they are great. Outside of work I hardly use the desktop except for occasional games.


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## raybonz (Apr 13, 2013)

Pallet Pete said:


> Ray where are you ? You know you want to say something here !
> 
> we have windows 8 at work and to be honest it is a piece of trash. I reloaded windows 7 on my machine.
> 
> Pete


I don't like the interface of Win 8 and don't like the idea of a smudged up display.. I work for P&G and they are slow to adopt new OS's and just recently Win 7 professional is becoming the standard but I recently ran into a problem installing software into an HMI because the software was written for Win 2000 so the VB code needs to be rewritten to install on a Win 7 machine. This is what God created programmers for Pete  I like Win 7 and see no reason to go to Win 8 at the moment.

Ray


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## BrotherBart (Apr 13, 2013)

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blo...ile-test-delayed-by-windows-8.html#entry-more


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## begreen (Apr 14, 2013)

jharkin said:


> It won't, nor will engineering CAD workstations (used to be all Unix now windows) or artist/animator systems (Mac). Tablets just suck for content creation.
> 
> But for home web surfing and content consumption they are great. Outside of work I hardly use the desktop except for occasional games.



Overtime that will change too. The GPUs are becoming more powerful and multicored. Remember how absurd it seemed to envision a laptop doing workstation work even 10 yrs ago? I have a laptop now with 16 gb ram, 250GB SSD and an i7 processor that is totally capable of doing complex motion graphics work.


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## jharkin (Apr 14, 2013)

True, but touch screen is still woefully inadequate as an input method for these uses. A tablet with a keyboard and mouse might as well be a laptop.


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## simple.serf (Apr 14, 2013)

Hell, I remember the commodore PET days (I still have one, and a c-64 and an SX-64 portable). About the only version of windows I liked was XP. Now here's what I find funny: Canocal (the maker of Ubuntu Linux) did this exact same thing with their 12.04 version of Ubuntu. Totally new interface that us old timers just didn't like. It looks alot like a smartphone now. Guess what? Ubuntu is no longer the #1 desktop distro of Linux. Microsoft is going down the exact same road, and it's going to hurt.


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## raybonz (Apr 14, 2013)

jharkin said:


> True, but touch screen is still woefully inadequate as an input method for these uses. A tablet with a keyboard and mouse might as well be a laptop.


Touch screens can be a good thing. For instance at work we have HMI's (Human Machine Interface) on all the machines which are great for machine operators. When I work on them I bring along a USB keyboard/touchpad to do what I need to do. Touchpads might be the latest craze but can't replace PC's for what I need, at least not now. For home use they are fine but I still prefer a laptop and haven't bought a touchpad yet but someday I will.

Ray


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## raybonz (Apr 14, 2013)

simple.serf said:


> Hell, I remember the commodore PET days (I still have one, and a c-64 and an SX-64 portable). About the only version of windows I liked was XP. Now here's what I find funny: Canocal (the maker of Ubuntu Linux) did this exact same thing with their 12.04 version of Ubuntu. Totally new interface that us old timers just didn't like. It looks alot like a smartphone now. Guess what? Ubuntu is no longer the #1 desktop distro of Linux. Microsoft is going down the exact same road, and it's going to hurt.


My 1st computer was a C-64 too and XP was good.. Windows 7 blows XP away in quite a few areas especially the search feature, it is instant and security appears much better too..

Ray


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## maple1 (Apr 15, 2013)

Question: What is the newest version of Windows that can still run DOS programs?

XP Pro can - what about 7? I'm suspecting not?


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## Jags (Apr 15, 2013)

maple1 said:


> Question: What is the newest version of Windows that can still run DOS programs?
> 
> XP Pro can - what about 7? I'm suspecting not?


 
Depends.  If it is a 32 bit win7 - then yes.  No 64 bit OS will run dos.


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## begreen (Apr 15, 2013)

You can run 32 bit executables in Win 7 64 bit. There is a "DOS" command line shell still in Win7 64 bit. I use it fairly frequently, though I haven't tried to run a DOS program in it, I would think it would work. Try setting its compatibility mode for an older OS like Win98 first. To get the Commnand line dialog, type "cmd" in the Run dialog. Or you could just create a VM within Win7 64. DOSBox is a free one.

http://www.dosbox.com/


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## Jags (Apr 15, 2013)

Yes - you can run 32 bit exe. But I don't believe that you can run DOS on a 64 bit OS.

Looking further into it...it does appear that there are some DOS emulators out there that will allow it to run (DOSbox is one example).  But without an emulator it ain't gonna happen.  64 bit OS simply can't read 16 bit programs.


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## begreen (Apr 15, 2013)

True, but there are workarounds. Not sure if it will work for the OP but here are some ideas:
http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/...programs/3a281337-7483-4e23-8d3f-259d816157dc


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## raybonz (Apr 15, 2013)

maple1 said:


> Question: What is the newest version of Windows that can still run DOS programs?
> 
> XP Pro can - what about 7? I'm suspecting not?


OMG you're in the dark ages with DOS! I have to run DOS on some old machines and it sucks! Our machines are networked to the nth degree so we need to be windows based plus the standard is MS office and is on everything we use and currently we use both ver. 2007 and 2010..

Ray


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## Pallet Pete (Apr 15, 2013)

maple1 said:


> Question: What is the newest version of Windows that can still run DOS programs?
> 
> XP Pro can - what about 7? I'm suspecting not?


 Xp support life is ending soon too so if your running xp its time to move up to 7. I am no windows lover but I do like 7 for the most part. 
Pete


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## raybonz (Apr 15, 2013)

http://www.pcworld.com/article/243718/run_dos_programs_in_windows_7.html


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## maple1 (Apr 15, 2013)

raybonz said:


> OMG you're in the dark ages with DOS! I have to run DOS on some old machines and it sucks! Our machines are networked to the nth degree so we need to be windows based plus the standard is MS office and is on everything we use and currently we use both ver. 2007 and 2010..
> 
> Ray


 
We have a couple of old DOS-based programs that do just what we want (coordinate geometry & drafting related). Despite having a Windows Cadd program also installed on this XP machine, I still use the DOS based one for drawing creation - then the Win based one for creating final product (usually a PDF file). Newer is not always better, moreso sometimes rather unfortunately inevitable.


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## raybonz (Apr 15, 2013)

maple1 said:


> We have a couple of old DOS-based programs that do just what we want (coordinate geometry & drafting related). Despite having a Windows Cadd program also installed on this XP machine, I still use the DOS based one for drawing creation - then the Win based one for creating final product (usually a PDF file). Newer is not always better, moreso sometimes rather unfortunately inevitable.


When living in the past you can't expect to be supported in the future.. With progress it goes lead, follow or get out of the way.. I understand the old programs work and that's great however you can't expect this to go on forever.. I  have had hardware failures on Win 95, 98 and NT4 and good luck finding drivers anywhere.. We are phasing them all out and moving to win 7.. XP is next and needs to go too..

Ray


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## colin.p (Apr 15, 2013)

I run ubuntu 12.04 on my laptop and xubuntu 12.04 on my server. My wife and daughter both have win computers (Vista and XP) and if I actually need anything done in win (very rarely), I run XP in a virtual box on my laptop. The only Apple product I will have in the house is what I can bake in a pie.

I don't like Microsoft as a company, but windows is ok, just not as good as linux.


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## Pallet Pete (Apr 15, 2013)

colin.p said:


> I run ubuntu 12.04 on my laptop and xubuntu 12.04 on my server. My wife and daughter both have win computers (Vista and XP) and if I actually need anything done in win (very rarely), I run XP in a virtual box on my laptop. The only Apple product I will have in the house is what I can bake in a pie.
> 
> I don't like Microsoft as a company, but windows is ok, just not as good as linux.


I too am a Linux / Unix nut but to be honest it can't do everything ! It is getting better and better and it is a viable OS on its own but you still need windows for some things. I have unix programming experience and training so it is hard for me to admit it but windows is and will remain dominant for a long time to come. Personally I run a Mac mini dual with os 10.7 & Ubuntu 12.04 as well as a triple booted fun computer with 7, Ubuntu & Red Hat. 

Pete


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## raybonz (Apr 15, 2013)

colin.p said:


> I run ubuntu 12.04 on my laptop and xubuntu 12.04 on my server. My wife and daughter both have win computers (Vista and XP) and if I actually need anything done in win (very rarely), I run XP in a virtual box on my laptop. The only Apple product I will have in the house is what I can bake in a pie.
> 
> I don't like Microsoft as a company, but windows is ok, just not as good as linux.


I have played with Linux for near 3 decades with played as the keyword.. Linux is pretty and easy to install but the business world runs on Windows and I don't see that changing anytime soon.. MS Office is like my right hand and all other office apps are compared to MS Office.. The apps I run at work tend to be proprietary in nature and are always ported to windows. In my world Windows will always be king for this reason however I still find Linux interesting..

Ray


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## colin.p (Apr 15, 2013)

Pallet Pete said:


> I too am a Linux / Unix nut but to be honest it can't do everything ! It is getting better and better and it is a viable OS on its own but you still need windows for some things. I have unix programming experience and training so it is hard for me to admit it but windows is and will remain dominant for a long time to come. Personally I run a Mac mini dual with os 10.7 & Ubuntu 12.04 as well as a triple booted fun computer with 7, Ubuntu & Red Hat.
> 
> Pete


 
I find that everything I need to do, I can do in linux. However, of course, some still need win for some things. I used to boot win 2000, RH 8 (then 9) and Free BSD (which was an interesting OS) but I rarely booted into win and when I did everything tried to update at once. I then found that when I did need win, I just fired it up in virtual box.

As a matter of fact, did that just the other day because my DVD player borked and I had to add a new one to my Harmony remote, which requires win.
I like having lots of choices when it comes to computing and being free or cheap is even better.


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## jharkin (Apr 15, 2013)

raybonz said:


> I have played with Linux for near 3 decades with played as the keyword.. Linux is pretty and easy to install but the business world runs on Windows and I don't see that changing anytime soon.. MS Office is like my right hand and all other office apps are compared to MS Office.. The apps I run at work tend to be proprietary in nature and are always ported to windows. In my world Windows will always be king for this reason however I still find Linux interesting..
> 
> Ray


 
I played with Linux in college, Slackware and later the early versions of Red hat. Having to rebuild the kernel to incorporate driver changes etc got old. It was fun at the time, and useful to remote into the Unix systems at school - back then most of engineering systems where Solaris and AIX -  but I always had to keep windows around to get things done. Same at work, early on we had all Unix - Solaris, AIX, Alpha Unix, IRIX - but over the years engineering cad workstations have moved 95% to windows and the only Unix we have left are servers.


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## Pallet Pete (Apr 15, 2013)

colin.p said:


> I find that everything I need to do, I can do in linux. However, of course, some still need win for some things. I used to boot win 2000, RH 8 (then 9) and Free BSD (which was an interesting OS) but I rarely booted into win and when I did everything tried to update at once. I then found that when I did need win, I just fired it up in virtual box.
> 
> As a matter of fact, did that just the other day because my DVD player borked and I had to add a new one to my Harmony remote, which requires win.
> I like having lots of choices when it comes to computing and being free or cheap is even better.



Linux is not truly free but I wish it was. You still need a computer for the OS and compatible devices to Linux which lets be honest HP is really about it for external devices that are current. I also discovered early on that I needed to do a lot of tweaking and installing or in some cases making drivers for things to work. So between getting the hardware weather it be preloaded or not and the time it really isn't free at all. The software center for Ubuntu has free and charge apps as well. I can see ubuntu moving to paid eventually no matter what they say. When my Ubuntu adventure began was 4.10 so I have seen and even helped develop many of the improvements in today's distro. 

Pete


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## katwillny (Apr 15, 2013)

Windows 3.11 for Workgroups to this day has been one of the most stable version of windows to date. That in NT4. I have been at this since the Fall of 95 and have seen Microsoft put out some poorly designed products over the years. Windows 8 was supposed to be the product that brought them back. I am afraid to say that the days of the conventional PC are over. Most enterprises are moving away from PCs and going into tablet technologies. Windows is is unnecessarily big and top heavy, there are so many things that could have been designed better, but I also think that technology has changed in so many aspect, its not just the technology that has changed but also the business culture. And what I mean by that is, people and businesses have become very "trendy", its almost a herd mentality. A great deal of IT directors and CIOs are following trends that are not necessarily beneficial to their line of business.


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## jharkin (Apr 15, 2013)

Trendy is not a word I associate with corporate IT departments. I haven't seen any mass move to tablets, other than employers rolling out things like mobile iron to lock down employee mobile device access.

It might be a difference in industry but the problem we face more often than not with our customers is a hard time getting them to upgrade and move off old legacy systems.


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## begreen (Apr 16, 2013)

katwillny said:


> Windows 3.11 for Workgroups to this day has been one of the most stable version of windows to date. That in NT4. I have been at this since the Fall of 95 and have seen Microsoft put out some poorly designed products over the years. Windows 8 was supposed to be the product that brought them back. I am afraid to say that the days of the conventional PC are over. Most enterprises are moving away from PCs and going into tablet technologies. Windows is is unnecessarily big and top heavy, there are so many things that could have been designed better, but I also think that technology has changed in so many aspect, its not just the technology that has changed but also the business culture. And what I mean by that is, people and businesses have become very "trendy", its almost a herd mentality. A great deal of IT directors and CIOs are following trends that are not necessarily beneficial to their line of business.


 
Nonsense. I have worked daily for a living in every Windows OS since DOS 5.0. I can't tell you how many times I crashed the creaky Windows 3.11 for workgroups. It would be in the hundreds of times for sure. Windows 3.11 graphic routines and drivers were sometimes beta software at best and the printer drivers were pathetic. Without a doubt, Windows 7 64bit is the most stable and easy to work with version that MS has come up with. Drivers now update without rebooting and I have only had a single blue screen in 3 yrs. and that was due to a very faulty graphics driver and not the OS. Built-in security is much more robust too. Their server versions are also pretty good, but most folks don't work in them.


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## Jags (Apr 16, 2013)

begreen said:


> Nonsense. I have worked daily for a living in every Windows OS since DOS 5.0. I can't tell you how many times I crashed the creaky Windows 3.11 for workgroups. It would be in the hundreds of times for sure. Windows 3.11 graphic routines and drivers were sometimes beta software at best and the printer drivers were pathetic. Without a doubt, Windows 7 64bit is the most stable and easy to work with version that MS has come up with. Drivers now update without rebooting and I have only had a single blue screen in 3 yrs. and that was due to a very faulty graphics driver and not the OS. Built-in security is much more robust too. Their server versions are also pretty good, but most folks don't work in them.


 
I will second this. Every word of it.




jharkin said:


> Trendy is not a word I associate with corporate IT departments. I haven't seen any mass move to tablets, other than employers rolling out things like mobile iron to lock down employee mobile device access.


 
And Thank you. For anyone that thinks the desktop is going away...walk into your bean counter or Accounts Payable, or AR and tell them you are going to hand them an iPad. You won't be able to stand the high pitched whine.

Tablets have their place in the work force.  They thrive for mobile communications of all sorts.  They completely SUCK for any type of data entry of any volume.  Period.  My corporate office is small at 10 employees.  There isn't a SINGLE one of those positions that would be improved by replacing their workstations with a tablet.  Actually, productivity would drastically decline.


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## 343amc (Apr 16, 2013)

I cut my teeth on WFW 3.11, NT 3.5.1 and NT 4.0, then Exchange 5.0 and 5.5.  NT 4 wasn't bad, but 3.5.1 was a nightmare.

Attached is one of my favorite pics from the Windows 98/Office 97 era.


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## Jags (Apr 16, 2013)

By habit, I clicked "OK".


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## Delta-T (Apr 16, 2013)

i had run a decent DOS emulator on my 64bit Vista OS...so I could play classic games like Bard's Tale,Wrath of Nikademus, and Zork. Good times.


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## katwillny (Apr 16, 2013)

begreen said:


> It would be in the hundreds of times for sure. Windows 3.11


how many times did you crash 95, 98 and all of its variations, 2000 pro, xp, win7. You guys make it sound like they dont all crash and have a lot of issues. we roll out weekly windows updates, that says a lot about a product that needs updates weekly and sometimes more often. I may be talking nonsense or maybe just what i have seen over the last 15 in different places.


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## BrotherBart (Apr 16, 2013)

Try Linux. Everytime you start it up the thing starts downloading dozens of updates.


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## katwillny (Apr 16, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> Try Linux. Everytime you start it up the thing starts downloading dozens of updates.


Been using linix since pre2000. Ubuntu is great.


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## BrotherBart (Apr 16, 2013)

katwillny said:


> Been using linix since pre2000. Ubuntu is great.


 
Yeah I use Ubuntu also.


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## Jags (Apr 16, 2013)

katwillny said:


> Been using linix since pre2000. Ubuntu is great.


 
I just had a help desk call from one of my store managers.  He couldn't figure out why a .dotx is different from a .docx and you want me to move him to Ubuntu?


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## nate379 (Apr 16, 2013)

I don't get how you all can be pointyheads with the computers and cavemen with a woodstove   It's kinda funny readying cause you all are making jokes (least I think?) that 99% of us are thinking, WTF are these guys talking about?!

When I get on the computer I check email or a few website and that's about it. Everyone knows Al Gore invented the internet so he could look at free porn


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## Jags (Apr 16, 2013)

nate379 said:


> I don't get how you all can be pointyheads with the computers and cavemen with a woodstove  I


If ya do it 9-10 hours a day, you look for something else to do on your off time.  I do very little with puters in the evening.  I don't even like to look at the TV at night.  Worked on my still last night. (for making ethanol)


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## BrotherBart (Apr 16, 2013)

nate379 said:


> When I get on the computer I check email or a few website and that's about it.


 
About 3,700 times at least.


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## nate379 (Apr 16, 2013)

Makes sense, same way a mechanics truck is usually the one that's falling apart, barely running.



Jags said:


> If ya do it 9-10 hours a day, you look for something else to do on your off time. I do very little with puters in the evening. I don't even like to look at the TV at night. Worked on my still last night. (for making ethanol)


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## Jags (Apr 16, 2013)

nate379 said:


> Makes sense, same way a mechanics truck is usually the one that's falling apart, barely running.


 
Yeah - I have been doing this as a job for 24 years (counting military) and started messing with puters in about 1979.  I dream in ones and zeros.  Have been at my current post (computer dude extraordinaire) for 18 years and unless something unforeseen happens, I will retire from here.


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## katwillny (Apr 16, 2013)

Jags said:


> He couldn't figure out why a .dotx is different from a .docx and you want me to move him to Ubuntu?


hahahaha. maybe not for the average user yet. LOL. Its a great OS and it moves really fast on legacy hardware.


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## Jags (Apr 16, 2013)

Oh - I am familiar with Ubuntu.  I am also and IBMer.  I run a mini-main for my operational software (sales order, purchase orders, inventory, payables, receivables, etc).  You want to see something that can perform???  My IBM box is smokin' hot.


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## Jags (Apr 16, 2013)

I know, I know...this is a fox link, but it is not politcal.  Looks like the next version of Windowz (currently called windows blue, but will probably be renamed to win8.1) will have a direct to desktop option.
http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2013/04/16/windows-its-over-tech-site-declares/?intcmp=features


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## webbie (Apr 16, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> Yeah I use Ubuntu also.


 
Isn't the the tribe where Obama was born?


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## 343amc (Apr 16, 2013)

nate379 said:


> I don't get how you all can be pointyheads with the computers and cavemen with a woodstove  It's kinda funny readying cause you all are making jokes (least I think?) that 99% of us are thinking, WTF are these guys talking about?!


 
I'm right there with Jags.  After a full day dealing with this stuff (mostly telephone systems, virtually all of which have Linux or Windows servers that run right along side them), by the time I get home I want as little to do with technology as possible.   The latest non technological activity at night is home brewing.  Haven't done that in a while.


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## BrotherBart (Apr 16, 2013)

webbie said:


> Isn't the the tribe where Obama was born?


 
Nah. I think Ubuntu is the national religion of Kenya.


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## Delta-T (Apr 16, 2013)

you know, OSX is linux based..and with the current flavor, Mountain Lion you get that whole toughness thing goin....grrrrawwwwrrrr.

Still hoping I live to use one of my favorite lines from a movie...Star Trek ?? (the one with the whales, the voyage home maybe?)
Scotty:"oh, a keyboard, how quaint".


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## raybonz (Apr 16, 2013)

begreen said:


> Nonsense. I have worked daily for a living in every Windows OS since DOS 5.0. I can't tell you how many times I crashed the creaky Windows 3.11 for workgroups. It would be in the hundreds of times for sure. Windows 3.11 graphic routines and drivers were sometimes beta software at best and the printer drivers were pathetic. Without a doubt, Windows 7 64bit is the most stable and easy to work with version that MS has come up with. Drivers now update without rebooting and I have only had a single blue screen in 3 yrs. and that was due to a very faulty graphics driver and not the OS. Built-in security is much more robust too. Their server versions are also pretty good, but most folks don't work in them.


I fully agree! I remember the 3 finger salute all too well lol.. Win 7 is excellent in my opinion for reasons you outlined and many other reasons... Love the search feature!

Ray


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## begreen (Apr 16, 2013)

katwillny said:


> how many times did you crash 95, 98 and all of its variations, 2000 pro, xp, win7. You guys make it sound like they dont all crash and have a lot of issues. we roll out weekly windows updates, that says a lot about a product that needs updates weekly and sometimes more often. I may be talking nonsense or maybe just what i have seen over the last 15 in different places.


 
Like I said earlier, MS seems to get about every other one right. Sure I crashed a lot in Win 95, a whole lot. Win 98 SE was not perfect, but a lot better. Win ME was awful. 2000 and XP were better and easier to use, but Win7 is so far my fave. I see in Win 8.1 (Blue) they are going to return the Start button and boot straight to the desktop. That's a start.


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## BrotherBart (Apr 16, 2013)

My favorite OS on the desktop was OS/2. One of my desktop troops was in my office one day and looked at my monitor. In the bottom corner it showed that it had been up for 64 days. He said he was going back to take Windows off of his machine and put up OS/2.


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## begreen (Apr 16, 2013)

I tried to give OS/2 a chance, I really did. But is was very unstable when I used it and most of the graphic apps I was trying to use in it were too dysfunctional. I decided I didn't want to be a beta tester for IBM.


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## woodgeek (Apr 16, 2013)

for DOS there is always iDOS for the iPhone: 

http://appscout.pcmag.com/apple-ios...85-idos-dos-emulator-returns-to-the-app-store


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## Jags (Apr 17, 2013)

Yeah - OS/2 was pretty notorious for driver issues, but once you had a machine up and running (cleanly) - the sucker would just run.


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## BrotherBart (Apr 18, 2013)

Jags said:


> Oh - I am familiar with Ubuntu. I am also and IBMer. I run a mini-main for my operational software (sales order, purchase orders, inventory, payables, receivables, etc). You want to see something that can perform??? My IBM box is smokin' hot.


 
Brig Brue?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323809304578431160192440582.html


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## Jags (Apr 19, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> Brig Brue?
> 
> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323809304578431160192440582.html


 

Big Blue wouldn't be part of it.  It is only for the X86 line of low end servers. I'm gonna be rock'in the POWER7+.  The thing is a brute.


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