# How would you handle this?



## ZBrooks (Dec 20, 2013)

I apologize for the length of this in advance....

There are two Harman/Quad dealers within 25 miles of my house.  I chose to visit the Platinum dealer rather than the Gold dealer.  I visited the dealer on a Monday, spoke with the president of the company and a salesman about the various stoves that they had available.  During this conversation, I asked what the process was for purchasing a stove; do they have stoves in stock or do I have to order and wait for one?  I was told that they have stoves in stock and that they burn all of them before selling them to make sure that they are ready to go.  Great, I thought, I won't have to smell the paint curing. 

After some more research, thinking, etc., I called the dealer back the following Saturday and told them that I was ready to purchase a Harman P61a.  I was told that it would be ready on Monday.  I called Monday morning to make sure that the stove was ready to go before I made the 25 mile drive.  I also asked if there were any deals going on concerning pellets for folks that were purchasing stoves.  The President said that he hadn't been doing anything like that, but that he would give me a free ton. 

That afternoon, I showed up and paid cash for the stove and then loaded it up along with the pellets.  Everything went great and I was stoked to be getting a good stove and pellets.  When I got home and unloaded the stove, I opened the manual and saw a place for the serial number.  This is when I noticed that the serial number on the stove did not match the serial number on the receipt.  Then, I noticed that the label on the stove (with the serial #, etc) did not match the one in the manual.  I then looked up the parts diagram for the hopper and found that my stove did not have the most up to date hopper, so I started questioning how old this stove really was.

I sent an email Monday night to the president of the company, described what I had found and reiterated that my intention was to purchase a new stove, but I had a bad feeling that this one was several years old rather than one that had just been through the paint curing process.  Over the course of our email exchange on Tuesday, I was informed that they did screw up on recording the serial # correctly and that he was willing to do what I wanted; order a new stove or register the one I had purchased.  I asked him 4 different times how old the stove was without receiving a definitive answer.  However, I was informed that it was a new stove, even though it had been on flue in the store.  Of course, this wasn't mentioned to me before I paid retail price for the stove.  If I wanted a new stove, he would order one, but I will then owe him for the pellets he gave me.  Apparently, the pellets were given to me because this new stove was a demo stove, so the pellets were to even things out, in his opinion.  I didn't learn of this until the emails started flying.

On Wednesday, Harman, via Facebook, informed me that my 'new' stove was really 1.5 months shy of 5 years old.

At this point, what would you do if you were me and still wanted a P61a?


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## Justin M (Dec 20, 2013)

I would return it and buy from another dealer.   I would also report the dealer to Harman,  the better business bureau,  the dept. of consumer protection,  etc.


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## Lake Girl (Dec 20, 2013)

Stop payment and return the stove.  Contact Harman to let them know that he sold it to you as a new stove not a demo and that he should lose his Platinum status.  What did you pay for it?  Depreciation on a 5 year old demo is worth more than a ton of pellets...  Does it even qualify for warranty?

Glad you paid attention to your paperwork!


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## P38X2 (Dec 20, 2013)

Justin M said:


> I would return it and buy from another dealer.   I would also report the dealer to Harman,  the better business bureau,  the dept. of consumer protection,  etc.



+1
I would return it immediately and save all your email and FB correspondence, just in case. That's completely shady and unacceptable.

ETA- That "burn in" service also strikes me as a bit bizarre.

Care to share the name of the dealer?

Keep us posted.


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## Lake Girl (Dec 20, 2013)

Did the dealer identify the $100 credit from Harman?  Did you get paperwork for your tax credit?


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## Madcodger (Dec 20, 2013)

P38X2 said:


> +1
> I would return it immediately and save all your email and FB correspondence, just in case. That's completely shady and unacceptable.
> 
> ETA- That "burn in" service also strikes me as a bit bizarre.
> ...


Ditto.  Bad, bad business.


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## IHATEPROPANE (Dec 20, 2013)

Justin M said:


> I would return it and buy from another dealer.   I would also report the dealer to Harman,  the better business bureau,  the dept. of consumer protection,  etc.



X2 or 3


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## Lousyweather (Dec 20, 2013)

Lake Girl said:


> Stop payment and return the stove.  Contact Harman to let them know that he sold it to you as a new stove not a demo and that he should lose his Platinum status.  What did you pay for it?  Depreciation on a 5 year old demo is worth more than a ton of pellets...  Does it even qualify for warranty?
> 
> Glad you paid attention to your paperwork!



nope, 5 year old demo wont fall under the warranty for Harman, although the dealer can warranty it himself.......


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## Nick of PA (Dec 20, 2013)

Hate to say it, but this guy for sure tried to stick it to you.  A "demo" stove that is five years old and only ran to make sure it "runs good".  Yeah right.  Props on looking out for yourself and being vigilant with looking over your paperwork.  I would definitely call Harman and bbb because this guy is a crook.  Do what you can to return everything and go through another dealer.


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## Lousyweather (Dec 20, 2013)

first of all, OP, very astute of you to figure what you did.......

I think I would get back with the dealer, insist on a new stove, see what happens. I guess, as a dealer myself, give him an opportunity to "make it right".....if you don't get REASONABLE satisfaction, then, agreed, deal with another dealer......I don't know what the consumer protection laws are like in Idaho, so cant comment on that, but you wont get any satisfaction from Harman, as they cant do much (trust me, can tell you stories about my competition), and the BBB likely wont get you anywhere either...........


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## john193 (Dec 20, 2013)

This is a total bull move. Personally I'd tell them to come pick it up.

The preburn thing is total suspect. These stoves are shipped on crates and wrapped in plastic and require minor assembly. I find it hard to believe that a dealer would be spending his own time unpacking,burning his own pellets and repacking for pickup.

I wouldn't ask for a single concession from these people. Get your money and walk away. Too bad you didn't put this on your card, hopefully you get your money back quick. If this is the kind of relationship this person has at the point of sale I wouldn't trust them to provide any service down the road. Unlike a new car, your stove can only be serviced by the dealer it was purchased from.

Some actions don't warrant second chances. This is one of them.


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## Lousyweather (Dec 20, 2013)

john193 said:


> This is a total bull move. Personally I'd tell them to come pick it up.
> 
> The preburn thing is total suspect. These stoves are shipped on crates and wrapped in plastic and require minor assembly. I find it hard to believe that a dealer would be spending his own time unpacking,burning his own pellets and repacking for pickup.
> 
> ...



there's a very good reason to pre-burn a stove before it goes out.......one, it burns off the oils and cures the paint, minimizing smell and possible smoke in the house.....two, it ensures all parts are working. Every once and awhile, a brand new stove can have a bad part, or a wire unhooked, or a broken casting....the list goes on. While not common at all, we do see that from time to time. The thing is, as a dealer, we are required to service the units even for manufacturing issues.....and we get paid very little to do it. When a customer pick up their unit and does their own install, the technicians don't have a chance to trouble shoot the units (of course, if we install, we can replace the rare bad part right away). So, rather than have an unhappy customer have to wait a day or two or more for a repair on a new stove, its arguable to minimize the risk ahead of time. We don't pre-burn them, as we have found these issues are rare, and we try to warn the customer that the stove will smoke a bit for an hour or so on startup, to alleviate that concern as well.


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## Bioburner (Dec 20, 2013)

If no satisfaction in getting $$ back, go to state Attorney General. This was-is fraud. Could have their business license revoked etc. Stove prices have inched up about $200 a year so the offer of a free ton should have been with another $1000 or so of price reduction if the stove had been new on the pallet?!


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## silverfox103 (Dec 20, 2013)

Lousyweather said:


> I think I would get back with the dealer, insist on a new stove, see what happens. I guess, as a dealer myself, give him an opportunity to "make it right"



You must be kidding!  HELLO, he just sold him a 5 year old stove and represented it as new.  You want this customer to go back to the dealer, who just deceived him and misrepresented what he was being sold, to make it right?  You're living in a dreamworld.  

This dealer is a snake and it was no mistake what he did to this customer.  He should get his money back period.  I would also let Harman know, the BBB know and Idaho's Consumer Protection Dept of the Attorney Generals Office know.

Tom C.


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## IHATEPROPANE (Dec 20, 2013)

This was 100% in no way an accident.  This dealer was without a doubt trying to pull a fast one and I would want all my money back.


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## iceguy4 (Dec 20, 2013)

First.... one of the premiere dealers in my area pre burns stoves (not sure of boilers) and I find the practice a GOOD one.  
        For me what I would do is use his stove till a new one comes.  Keep his free pellets (he never linked them to you getting a used stove...it was a gesture)   When the new stove comes in check the paper work and make him do the take out and re- install.   After the dust settles and cooler heads prevail, you could then take it to the next level(I think I would).   Save ALL incriminating evidence!


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## silverfox103 (Dec 20, 2013)

iceguy4 said:


> First.... one of the premiere dealers in my area pre burns stoves (not sure of boilers) and I find the practice a GOOD one.



Does your "premiere dealer" also sell a 5 year old stove and represent it as new?


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## IHATEPROPANE (Dec 20, 2013)

Do these pre-burns happen after a customer purchases a stove normally?  Or does it happen as they get shipments?


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## smwilliamson (Dec 20, 2013)

This stuff happens all of the time. Its hard to say what the best coarse of action is, though I will tell you it's a bit brazen to say you would have to pay for the pellets if he get's you a new stove. Tell em your fine with it but he needs to get the pellets up and out of your basement bunker as well as deliver the new stove down in to the basement and take the old one out. Personally I'd cancel payment and let him chase you for awhile.


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## iceguy4 (Dec 20, 2013)

IHATEPROPANE said:


> Do these pre-burns happen after a customer purchases a stove normally? Or does it happen as they get shipments?


I'm not sure ..I came across one of their stoves...never used but tested...



silverfox103 said:


> Does your "premiere dealer" also sell a 5 year old stove and represent it as new?


My dealer draws the line at 41/2 years old...just joking... a cheesy move at the least..  two thumbs up to the OP for catching it...In this day and age ...._Caveat emptor...._


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## twodogs02 (Dec 20, 2013)

Justin M said:


> I would return it and buy from another dealer.   I would also report the dealer to Harman,  the better business bureau,  the dept. of consumer protection,  etc.


I would do as above.  Also-

My dealer just delivered my new stove yesterday.  He did pre-burn it so I'm going to check my paperwork tonight.  I'm not as concerned since my XXV has the new paint color code stamped on the manual from Harman but, best to check twice.....


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## Justin M (Dec 20, 2013)

You could also contact the police and consider handling the fraud issue criminally.


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## bdaoust (Dec 20, 2013)

Even if he tries to "make it right", you are going to want to have a good relationship with the dealer for future service. If you have the option, go elsewhere.  And I agree, make the guy pickup his "new" stove himself.


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## moey (Dec 20, 2013)

Try and get all your money back in a nice manner first. Then raise hell once you get it back. BBB bad reviews anything you can think of.


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## rona (Dec 20, 2013)

ZBrooks said:


> I apologize for the length of this in advance....
> 
> There are two Harman/Quad dealers within 25 miles of my house.  I chose to visit the Platinum dealer rather than the Gold dealer.  I visited the dealer on a Monday, spoke with the president of the company and a salesman about the various stoves that they had available.  During this conversation, I asked what the process was for purchasing a stove; do they have stoves in stock or do I have to order and wait for one?  I was told that they have stoves in stock and that they burn all of them before selling them to make sure that they are ready to go.  Great, I thought, I won't have to smell the paint curing.
> 
> ...




Having been on both sides of this issue I can agree with both sides.   First  off I have helped deliver several stoves for a Harman dealer in the past and  there is nothing more embarrassing then having a "New" stove unloaded , carried downstairs and after all the work of installing it the blame thing wouldn't run. This really makes the customer smile and gives them a lot of fresh confidence in both the installer and the store in general. After the stove is checked out and the problem solved then we have the new stove smell of burning oil, etc, and the owners wife opening windows etc.  
  After two instances like that, when we sold a stove we told the customer we preburn the stove before delivery so the smell was gone and we knew the stove would work.  These stoves were brand new boxes not opened.  If the stove was 3 years old but still new in box the customer was told that fact and if any updates were needed they were done before delivery.
  The dealer in this case deceived the customer and if I was the customer I would cancel the check and say get your stove as I don't put up with liars.


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## silverfox103 (Dec 20, 2013)

Justin M said:


> You could also contact the police and consider handling the fraud issue criminally.



This is the best post yet!

Tom C.


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## P38X2 (Dec 20, 2013)

I'm 100% certain Harman tests their stoves before boxing them. No, not test burning, but the same test you or I would do using "test" mode.

The incidents of stoves arriving DOA in customers homes is extremely low, but it does happen. It happens with almost anything and everything mechanical/electrical. Yes, it sucks, but at that point the dealer should have the capability to make it right relatively immediately, and also ensure the customer understands that chit happens occasionally and they shouldn't lose any faith in the brand they chose.

I can understand dealers, upon request, curing the paint for customers, because that procedure can suck for various reasons, but I wouldn't want it done to my stove. Do wood stove dealers do this for the same reason?...I wouldn't think so. Would you want to shell out $3000 on a NEW lawn tractor only to find it delivered with dried clippings all over it because the dealer wanted to make sure it worked?

As others have said, DO NOT get another unit from this dealer. I'm all for letting a dealer "make it right", but from what you describe, this is NOT one of those situations.


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## pell it (Dec 20, 2013)

Sounds like it is time for Guido and the boys to make a visit to that dealer.  Any new concrete structures going up around there anytime soon? 







Just Kidding ( in case it was not obvious)


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## newf lover (Dec 20, 2013)

A big problem is the OP paid cash for the stove, so he cannot stop payment or challenge it with his credit card payment. I think I would call the dealer, say you want the stove removed and your money back in 24 hours, or you will file a complaint with consumer protection, Harman, Better Business Bureau etc. The only chance I would give him to make it right is to get your money back. I hope you have all paperwork, make copies, save every slip of paper. This is why dealing in cash for a large purchase is risky.


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## newf lover (Dec 20, 2013)

Also, what did you pay for the stove? Did you pay close to the MSRP or was there a big discount? If there was a discount, you might have trouble convincing anyone you thought it was a new stove when you bought it.


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## gfreek (Dec 20, 2013)

So a 5 year old stove was sold as new stock.. I would not be happy...What if there was a board update or whatever.   Give me a NEW stove  with serial number verification please..and pre burn before delivery..thankyou


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## Lousyweather (Dec 20, 2013)

silverfox103 said:


> You must be kidding!  HELLO, he just sold him a 5 year old stove and represented it as new.  You want this customer to go back to the dealer, who just deceived him and misrepresented what he was being sold, to make it right?  You're living in a dreamworld.
> 
> This dealer is a snake and it was no mistake what he did to this customer.  He should get his money back period.  I would also let Harman know, the BBB know and Idaho's Consumer Protection Dept of the Attorney Generals Office know.
> 
> Tom C.



your needless sarcasm aside, the title of the post is "How would you handle this?"......there really isn't a right or a wrong answer here, its an opinion-type of post, and, well, as everyone has opinions, they will vary. A lot of unknowns here, although I feel it should be made right, if no one gives the dealer a chance to do so, they cant "fix" it at all. 

As I am an old guy, Ive found that the best way to catch bees is with honey rather than with vinegar. The OP was certainly slighted, advertently or inadvertently , but my opinion is to still allow the dealer the opportunity to fix this, satisfactorily to both sides. If no common ground can be found at all, then the dealer should give the OP their funds back, take back the stove and pellets, which, from a financial standpoint makes the OP whole. Then its up to the OP to maybe go to another dealer, or even new brand of stove........certainly a severe learning curve here to, that's fer sure....

A 5 year old P61A, demo unit nonetheless......I wonder what the price for the unit was.......


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## notch (Dec 20, 2013)

Take the high road, be nice, and just get your cash back.  Then move on.

...as we forgive those...


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## rcc (Dec 20, 2013)

notch said: "Take the high road, be nice, and just get your cash back.  Then move on.

...as we forgive those..."

I disagree with notch only because the dealer may / will do the same thing to another customer. The dealer needs to realize this is unacceptable.


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## IHATEPROPANE (Dec 20, 2013)

Lousyweather said:


> your needless sarcasm aside, the title of the post is "How would you handle this?"......there really isn't a right or a wrong answer here, its an opinion-type of post, and, well, as everyone has opinions, they will vary. A lot of unknowns here, although I feel it should be made right, if no one gives the dealer a chance to do so, they cant "fix" it at all.
> 
> As I am an old guy, Ive found that the best way to catch bees is with honey rather than with vinegar. The OP was certainly slighted, advertently or inadvertently , but my opinion is to still allow the dealer the opportunity to fix this, satisfactorily to both sides. If no common ground can be found at all, then the dealer should give the OP their funds back, take back the stove and pellets, which, from a financial standpoint makes the OP whole. Then its up to the OP to maybe go to another dealer, or even new brand of stove........certainly a severe learning curve here to, that's fer sure....
> 
> A 5 year old P61A, demo unit nonetheless......I wonder what the price for the unit was.......



In some cases I would agree with you,  however the dealership is needed for any warranty claim and there is no way i would trust this place to handle that.   There is no way they did not purposely give them a 5 year old stove.

Like George Bush said.....fool me once shame on you....fool me twice.....well you are not gonna fool me twice


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## Lousyweather (Dec 20, 2013)

I think given the situation, Harman would likely arrange warranty work thru another dealer.....we have had to service other dealers' units when the homeowner simply would not allow the original dealer back into their place for work....yea, it does get that bad sometimes. The warranty is supplied by Harman, not the dealer, even tho the selling dealer is SUPPOSED to do the work, special dispensations do happen. When we have to do warranty work on a unit we didn't sell, we simply charge Harman for the work, and we also get travel time, which we wouldn't normally get if we did sell the unit. Same as if the original dealer goes out of business.

If all trust and good faith are lost, the OP should get their money back, and go elsewhere.


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## moey (Dec 20, 2013)

rcc said:


> notch said: "Take the high road, be nice, and just get your cash back.  Then move on.
> 
> ...as we forgive those..."
> 
> I disagree with notch only because the dealer may / will do the same thing to another customer. The dealer needs to realize this is unacceptable.



Id take the high road if they were willing to immediately give my money back. Then take the road of filing complaints right and left after I had my money in hand.


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## fmsm (Dec 20, 2013)

The dealer knowingly committed an unfair and deceptive practice. I would tell him he has 12 hours to refund every penny, pay you for your gas picking up the stove, and to remove all of his property (stove and pellets) ASAP. I would also ask for a check for your time. Keep in mind that if you sue him you are likely entitled to punitive damages in addition to actual damages. Request his insurance company information as well. You may need to put a claim against his liability policy. He also may have legal defense coverage, this will also get his attention as his rates are sure to go up by you even contacting his company. I would also tell him you are going to the Attorney General's Office and the local TV stations. Tell him your the nut that will take copies of your documents and stand in front of his store and pass out the copies to prospective customers and tell them your story.....Screw this jerk! Post his name out here so I can call him and tell him he's scum! I'll be glad to!


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## bill3rail (Dec 20, 2013)

As others have said, get your money back,

Stop payment if you feel it is the only way to get your money back.

Great investigation on your part.  Buyer Seller Beware!

Bill



Justin M said:


> You could also contact the police and consider handling the fraud issue criminally.


Not a criminal issue, this is a civil issue!


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## Justin M (Dec 20, 2013)

bill3rail said:


> Not a criminal issue, this is a civil issue!


Fraud is a civil and criminal issue.  The police investigate fraud cases all the time.


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## ZBrooks (Dec 20, 2013)

Thanks for the replies everyone.  I am a member on more forums than I care to admit and the group here is first class.

As a small business owner myself, I understand the costs associated with processing credit cards.  When I am dealing with a mom and pop type establishment, I like to use cash.  Considering I paid with cash, *$3489* to be exact after the $100 coupon from Harman's website, I asked that a brand new stove be ordered.  Earlier this morning, I sent another email to verify whether or not the stove has actually been ordered.  I have yet to receive word one way or the other.  The demo stove hasn't made it into the house yet, so I'm not worried about loading back into my truck and returning it.  The pellets, however, I intend to keep for the hassle.  They are nicely stacked in my shop and if he wants them back, I will bring up the issue of negligence and/or fraud.  I have a receipt that shows 'No Charge' for them, as well.  If the dealer will trade me this 5 year old stove for the new one that I want, I'll accept it and move on.  He has one chance to make this right.  

As for warranty work, I'm not sure how that works out exactly.  If a part fails, can I replace it myself or does the dealer have to?


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## ZBrooks (Dec 20, 2013)

Concerning the actual installation of the P61A, the manual states that a vertical run of more than 15' for the vent should be 4" pipe.  My house currently has about 25' (two story house) of 3" pipe that runs up a chimney chase.  It was used with the old Fabco pellet insert that was in the house for the past 20 years.  Should I convert all of it to 4" or punch a hole in the side of the house and keep the 3"?  Or, see how it works as is?


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## ZBrooks (Dec 20, 2013)

Lake Girl said:


> Did the dealer identify the $100 credit from Harman?  Did you get paperwork for your tax credit?



Via emial, the dealer told me that, "The stoves warranty is intact with us for the extra time period."  How long that extra time period is, I do not know.  I received the $100 credit because I had a print out of the coupon.  I also received the paperwork for the tax credit.


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## ZBrooks (Dec 20, 2013)

I see many of you make mention of dealers delivering stoves.  That never came up in conversation.  Did I screw up by picking up the stove and driving it to my own home?


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## Don2222 (Dec 20, 2013)

Hello

I like the older stoves better than the new ones. They seem to be a little heavier, so I would gladly keep it. IMO However the dealer should have been strait, and that is where the problem is. so now you have to ask about the warranty!


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## Madcodger (Dec 20, 2013)

ZBrooks said:


> Via emial, the dealer told me that, "The stoves warranty is intact with us for the extra time period."  How long that extra time period is, I do not know.


And if he decides to shut down come spring?  You need the mfr's warranty, not his.


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## ZBrooks (Dec 21, 2013)

Don2222 said:


> I like the older stoves better than the new ones. They seem to be a little heavier, so I would gladly keep it.



Problem is, I have no idea how many pellets have been run through it.  

Are there any other reasons as to why you would want to keep an older one?


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## Stevekng (Dec 21, 2013)

ZBrooks said:


> Problem is, I have no idea how many pellets have been run through it.
> 
> Are there any other reasons as to why you would want to keep an older one?


There are no reasons to keep the old one, Period. What if the old one isn't a demo, but a return that malfunctioned or one that the dealer took as a trade in. You should see if the old serial number was ever registered before. Further, why can't you simply tell the dealer that you want the stove that is documented on the paperwork you were given If that is the supposed to be new?


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## IHATEPROPANE (Dec 21, 2013)

ZBrooks said:


> Thanks for the replies everyone.  I am a member on more forums than I care to admit and the group here is first class.
> 
> As a small business owner myself, I understand the costs associated with processing credit cards.  When I am dealing with a mom and pop type establishment, I like to use cash.  Considering I paid with cash, *$3489* to be exact after the $100 coupon from Harman's website, I asked that a brand new stove be ordered.  Earlier this morning, I sent another email to verify whether or not the stove has actually been ordered.  I have yet to receive word one way or the other.  The demo stove hasn't made it into the house yet, so I'm not worried about loading back into my truck and returning it.  The pellets, however, I intend to keep for the hassle.  They are nicely stacked in my shop and if he wants them back, I will bring up the issue of negligence and/or fraud.  I have a receipt that shows 'No Charge' for them, as well.  If the dealer will trade me this 5 year old stove for the new one that I want, I'll accept it and move on.  He has one chance to make this right.
> 
> As for warranty work, I'm not sure how that works out exactly.  If a part fails, can I replace it myself or does the dealer . to?



You paid $3500 for a FIVE year old stove......you got totally screwed.  I see them on CL for usually around 1500-2000


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## Drew65 (Dec 21, 2013)

I would have loved a dealer pre burnin just to avoid the blue haze in my house.  And loved the note in the manual that all humans and pets should be out of the house when you do it. guess I should have read that part first


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## Lousyweather (Dec 21, 2013)

ZBrooks said:


> Thanks for the replies everyone.  I am a member on more forums than I care to admit and the group here is first class.
> 
> 
> As for warranty work, I'm not sure how that works out exactly.  If a part fails, can I replace it myself or does the dealer have to?



yes, you can do your own work....wont void the warranty, stuff like that......parts coverage, well, a dealer who is sympathetic to your cause could even submit the cost of parts for coverage as well.


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## Lousyweather (Dec 21, 2013)

ZBrooks said:


> I see many of you make mention of dealers delivering stoves.  That never came up in conversation.  Did I screw up by picking up the stove and driving it to my own home?



no


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## Lousyweather (Dec 21, 2013)

IHATEPROPANE said:


> You paid $3500 for a FIVE year old stove......you got totally screwed.  I see them on CL for usually around 1500-2000




yea, he paid the money for a new stove........we are around $3300 for them (well, for a new one), and that includes two tons of pellets....


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## CladMaster (Dec 21, 2013)

rona said:


> Having been on both sides of this issue I can agree with both sides.   First  off I have helped deliver several stoves for a Harman dealer in the past and  there is nothing more embarrassing then having a "New" stove unloaded , carried downstairs and after all the work of installing it the blame thing wouldn't run. This really makes the customer smile and gives them a lot of fresh confidence in both the installer and the store in general. After the stove is checked out and the problem solved then we have the new stove smell of burning oil, etc, and the owners wife opening windows etc.
> After two instances like that, when we sold a stove we told the customer we preburn the stove before delivery so the smell was gone and we knew the stove would work.  These stoves were brand new boxes not opened.  If the stove was 3 years old but still new in box the customer was told that fact and if any updates were needed they were done before delivery.
> The dealer in this case deceived the customer and if I was the customer I would cancel the check and say get your stove as I don't put up with liars.



But the OP states he 'PAID IN CASH' so how can he stop the check (Cheque).  

The OP now has a 5 year old stove and out of pocket for x amount of $$$'s.

I would be jumping up and down all over that company for what I paid for, not a stove that's 2, 3, or even 5 years old, but NEW, never used and still in it's box on the crate / pallet.


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## Hoot23 (Dec 21, 2013)

Lousyweather said:


> yea, he paid the money for a new stove........we are around $3300 for them (well, for a new one), and that includes two tons of pellets....



That's a great price for a new 61 and 2 ton of pellets. Does that include piping and install?

I paid $4100 for stove, piping, and install. They threw in a ton of Logic pellets. Plus I got the black stove pipe.


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## IHATEPROPANE (Dec 21, 2013)

Lousyweather said:


> yea, he paid the money for a new stove........we are around $3300 for them (well, for a new one), and that includes two tons of pellets....



That's a nice price ......are you in central MA by any chance?


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## MarkSJohnson (Dec 21, 2013)

I've been keeping up with this thread, and don't want to hijack it....but now that the thread has turned a bit towards advantages / disadvantages of old stoves, I'll ask:

I just had a new Hudson River Kinderhook installed.  No question that it had never been burned.  But the MFR tag on the underside of the pellet bins lid shows a manufacturing date of Sept 2011.  My thoughts when I first saw it is that a Kinderhook model isn't going to "move" the way a much more popular stove would, and it wasn't really shocking that this stayed at a distributors for a year or two (My dealer didn't have any in stock, as he doesn't sell too many of these).

Are there really any concerns other then maybe some minor tweak to the firmware?  Can the boards be updated with new firmware in the field if there even ARE any "updates"?  It's working fine....


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## IHATEPROPANE (Dec 21, 2013)

MarkSJohnson said:


> I've been keeping up with this thread, and don't want to hijack it....but now that the thread has turned a bit towards advantages / disadvantages of old stoves, I'll ask:
> 
> I just had a new Hudson River Kinderhook installed.  No question that it had never been burned.  But the MFR tag on the underside of the pellet bins lid shows a manufacturing date of Sept 2011.  My thoughts when I first saw it is that a Kinderhook model isn't going to "move" the way a much more popular stove would, and it wasn't really shocking that this stayed at a distributors for a year or two (My dealer didn't have any in stock, as he doesn't sell too many of these).
> 
> Are there really any concerns other then maybe some minor tweak to the firmware?  Can the boards be updated with new firmware in the field if there even ARE any "updates"?  It's working fine....



If there are updates that you become aware of notify your dealer.  I assure they will take care if it.  My dealer came out with an upgraded blower.....no charge


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## ZBrooks (Dec 21, 2013)

Can you pre-burn a stove outside with a 5' vent pipe temporarily attached?


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## Lousyweather (Dec 21, 2013)

Hoot23 said:


> That's a great price for a new 61 and 2 ton of pellets. Does that include piping and install?
> 
> I paid $4100 for stove, piping, and install. They threw in a ton of Logic pellets. Plus I got the black stove pipe.




Hell, no! Pipe is extra, delivery and install is extra, floor protection is extra.......for THAT price, we will load a crated unit on your truck, as well as the pellets......might even wave goodbye......


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## Lousyweather (Dec 21, 2013)

IHATEPROPANE said:


> That's a nice price ......are you in central MA by any chance?



you can IM me if you like, but prefer to keep my anonymity here, as I don't want, or expect, any income from my posting to this site......others have run into trouble in the past for this, and I would rather avoid that...


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## Lousyweather (Dec 21, 2013)

ZBrooks said:


> Can you pre-burn a stove outside with a 5' vent pipe temporarily attached?




sure, just be cognizant of clearances to combustibles....


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## Lake Girl (Dec 21, 2013)

ZBrooks,
What has the dealer replied other than he would charge you for the ton of pellets ...  Have you asked for your money back?

Still might want to consult with the police department


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## Lousyweather (Dec 21, 2013)

yea, certainly not a "warm fuzzy" experience, is it? Not that I doubt the OP, but I would really love to hear the other side.....what the excuses, etc are....hey, folks, 2 sides to every story.....


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## IHATEPROPANE (Dec 21, 2013)

Lousyweather said:


> you can IM me if you like, but prefer to keep my anonymity here, as I don't want, or expect, any income from my posting to this site......others have run into trouble in the past for this, and I would rather avoid that...



I hear ya.....I will be in the market for a second stove in a year ir two....will check in with you then


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## ZBrooks (Dec 21, 2013)

Lake Girl said:


> ZBrooks,
> What has the dealer replied other than he would charge you for the ton of pellets ...  Have you asked for your money back?
> 
> Still might want to consult with the police department



I have not asked for my money back.  The standing at this point is that I have asked for a new stove to be ordered and was told that it would be ordered.  This was as of Tuesday.  I emailed the dealer yesterday to confirm that the stove had been ordered and did not receive a reply.  I am going to give him the chance, in person, to make this right.  If he chooses not to, then I will ask for my money back.  Part of my problem here is that I show up to work before most places open and leave work after most places are closed, so I only get maybe one day per week to sort this stuff out in person.


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## ZBrooks (Dec 21, 2013)

Lousyweather said:


> yea, certainly not a "warm fuzzy" experience, is it? Not that I doubt the OP, but I would really love to hear the other side.....what the excuses, etc are....hey, folks, 2 sides to every story.....



If you'd like, I can post the email exchange.  Or, I could forward it to you.  I think by doing so, it would put the dealer in an even worse light.  I am still baffled by his explanation for the serial # snafu.


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## Lousyweather (Dec 21, 2013)

ZBrooks said:


> If you'd like, I can post the email exchange.  Or, I could forward it to you.  I think by doing so, it would put the dealer in an even worse light.  I am still baffled by his explanation for the serial # snafu.


it's ok.....was just curious about the "other" side (Im a dealer myself)......its kinda like watching a train wreck, I guess


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## ZBrooks (Dec 21, 2013)

ZBrooks said:


> Concerning the actual installation of the P61A, the manual states that a vertical run of more than 15' for the vent should be 4" pipe.  My house currently has about 25' (two story house) of 3" pipe that runs up a chimney chase.  It was used with the old Fabco pellet insert that was in the house for the past 20 years.  Should I convert all of it to 4" or punch a hole in the side of the house and keep the 3"?  Or, see how it works as is?



Any takers?


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## Lousyweather (Dec 21, 2013)

ZBrooks said:


> Any takers?



sure.....my money is on punching a hole and using a short run of pipe......easier to maintain, can bring in outside air, and not relying on old piping which is AT BEST marginal for your use (and I argue not adequate).....plus thru the wall would be MUCH cheaper than a whole new 4" run!


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## mikkeeh (Dec 21, 2013)

I think 25' of  3" would be pushing it.  Id probably just keep it 3 and go thru the wall.   Makes for easier vent maintenance too...No need to get on the roof.


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## ZBrooks (Dec 21, 2013)

Lousyweather said:


> sure.....my money is on punching a hole and using a short run of pipe......easier to maintain, can bring in outside air, and not relying on old piping which is AT BEST marginal for your use (and I argue not adequate).....plus thru the wall would be MUCH cheaper than a whole new 4" run!



Since the old Fabco insert was a natural draft stove with no combustion blower, I already have a 6" hole in the wall for an OAK.  Is there something that can fit in the wall via this hole that will allow me to use it for both the OAK and vent?


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## mikkeeh (Dec 21, 2013)

I think Harman, and maybe Selkirk sell a combo thimble kit that include fresh air.  Might have to enlarge the 6" hole a little tho....


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## Lousyweather (Dec 21, 2013)

ZBrooks said:


> Since the old Fabco insert was a natural draft stove with no combustion blower, I already have a 6" hole in the wall for an OAK.  Is there something that can fit in the wall via this hole that will allow me to use it for both the OAK and vent?



yup.....Harman's might be a tight fit for 6", but it works very well.......and it covers both the exhaust AND intake......maybe get it from another dealer tho.....  :0


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## P38X2 (Dec 21, 2013)

The Harman thimble is very nice.


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## newf lover (Dec 21, 2013)

ZBrooks said:


> Thanks for the replies everyone.  I am a member on more forums than I care to admit and the group here is first class.
> 
> As a small business owner myself, I understand the costs associated with processing credit cards.  When I am dealing with a mom and pop type establishment, I like to use cash.  Considering I paid with cash, *$3489* to be exact after the $100 coupon from Harman's website, I asked that a brand new stove be ordered.  Earlier this morning, I sent another email to verify whether or not the stove has actually been ordered.  I have yet to receive word one way or the other.  The demo stove hasn't made it into the house yet, so I'm not worried about loading back into my truck and returning it.  The pellets, however, I intend to keep for the hassle.  They are nicely stacked in my shop and if he wants them back, I will bring up the issue of negligence and/or fraud.  I have a receipt that shows 'No Charge' for them, as well.  If the dealer will trade me this 5 year old stove for the new one that I want, I'll accept it and move on.  He has one chance to make this right.
> 
> As for warranty work, I'm not sure how that works out exactly.  If a part fails, can I replace it myself or does the dealer have to?



You paid what is advertised on the Harman site for a brand new P61. I'm sorry but there's no way this dealer didn't consciously screw you. There is no way you will ever be able to trust this dealer in the future. The fact that he is not falling all over himself to make this go away is astonishing. He is already ignoring your e-mail. I am not by nature a confrontational person, but I really think in this case a confrontation is in order.


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## ZBrooks (Dec 21, 2013)

newf lover said:


> You paid what is advertised on the Harman site for a brand new P61. I'm sorry but there's no way this dealer didn't consciously screw you. There is no way you will ever be able to trust this dealer in the future. The fact that he is not falling all over himself to make this go away is astonishing. He is already ignoring your e-mail. I am not by nature a confrontational person, but I really think in this case a confrontation is in order.



Good news...He just emailed me and said that a new stove is on its way.  It should be here after the first of the year because of the holidays.

I am a confrontational person, sometimes too much, but I've learned to let people screw themselves to the point that I don't have to get emotionally charged up in the process of confronting them.  Just present the facts and use the English language as well as I can and let the other person sweat it out.  Sure, I am out the cash at the moment and it may get ugly when the topic of the pellets comes up, but I'm fairly confident that when I let him know that I know what kind of a stunt he pulled that he'll quit while he's behind.

One hesitation I have in pulling out all of the stops in exposing him via the newspaper, TV, BBB, etc. is that if those methods prove effective in diminishing his business, it will hurt his employees, of whom have nothing to do with this.  I'll make sure to get this message across, if necessary.

Again, I really appreciate everyone's comments here.


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## john193 (Dec 21, 2013)

ZBrooks said:


> Good news...He just emailed me and said that a new stove is on its way.  It should be here after the first of the year because of the holidays.
> 
> I am a confrontational person, sometimes too much, but I've learned to let people screw themselves to the point that I don't have to get emotionally charged up in the process of confronting them.  Just present the facts and use the English language as well as I can and let the other person sweat it out.  Sure, I am out the cash at the moment and it may get ugly when the topic of the pellets comes up, but I'm fairly confident that when I let him know that I know what kind of a stunt he pulled that he'll quit while he's behind.
> 
> ...


Did you ask for his side of the story? What did he have to say for his action?


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## ChandlerR (Dec 21, 2013)

I've been following this thread with interest. So many ways to handle it and so many ways it could go. Z, I never thought about the store and the employees. It wouldn't be a stretch to see a news station pick this up and run with it and destroy this guy.  I personally think you're doing the right thing...at this point.  Hopefully things will be made right by you but I am still amazed at what he tried to pull off.  I'll be watching to see. Maybe he will learn a lesson?

Have a Merry Christmas and a great New Years!


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## ZBrooks (Dec 21, 2013)

john193 said:


> Did you ask for his side of the story? What did he have to say for his action?



His side of the story is explained via the emails we sent back and forth.  I'll see if I can create a word document of our emails and attach it here.


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## ZBrooks (Dec 21, 2013)

ChandlerR said:


> I've been following this thread with interest. So many ways to handle it and so many ways it could go. Z, I never thought about the store and the employees. It wouldn't be a stretch to see a news station pick this up and run with it and destroy this guy.  I personally think you're doing the right thing...at this point.  Hopefully things will be made right by you but I am still amazed at what he tried to pull off.  I'll be watching to see. Maybe he will learn a lesson?
> 
> Have a Merry Christmas and a great New Years!



Thank you.  Merry Christmas to you and yours.


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## john193 (Dec 21, 2013)

ZBrooks said:


> His side of the story is explained via the emails we sent back and forth.  I'll see if I can create a word document of our emails and attach it here.


No worries. I was just curious.


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## chken (Dec 21, 2013)

ZBrooks said:


> ...One hesitation I have in pulling out all of the stops in exposing him via the newspaper, TV, BBB, etc. is that if those methods prove effective in diminishing his business, it will hurt his employees, of whom have nothing to do with this.  I'll make sure to get this message across, if necessary.
> 
> Again, I really appreciate everyone's comments here.


That's very considerate, but certainly the employees know what kind of person they work for, and it didn't bother them enough to look for another job? I mean if you knew your boss was screwing someone, and you just went along with it, that's okay?


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## gfreek (Dec 21, 2013)

Good thread keep us posted...Thanks & hope it works out for you and you are satisfied with the outcome..


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## ZBrooks (Dec 21, 2013)

chken said:


> That's very considerate, but certainly the employees know what kind of person they work for, and it didn't bother them enough to look for another job? I mean if you knew your boss was screwing someone, and you just went along with it, that's okay?



Since I don't know for sure, I would have to assume and you know what they say about that.  The two other employees I spoke to seemed to be quality individuals.  One of them works in the stove department and was very upfront with me that he did not posses the same level of knowledge that the president of the company did when it came to Harman stoves.  It didn't really leave me with a great feeling overall after speaking with both of them.  I have since visited the other dealer of Harman stoves in my area, but that dealer didn't have a single Harman pellet stove on the floor.


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## P38X2 (Dec 21, 2013)

I certainly respect your decision to stick with this dealer, but if it were me, I'd absolutely go to the other guy for a stove. You're obviously a very patient and forgiving man.

I sincerely hope this guy doesn't dick you around on the one that was supposedly ordered. Not to stress you out but I can picture a few weeks going by and you getting a call by the dealer saying "how bout I knock $500 off the USED stove I sold you, I'm having a hard time getting another, bla bla bla"

Sometimes taking the "high road" gets you more frustrated. You can go to the other guy, order one, and be done with it. If the first dealer deceptively sold you a used stove, what do you think his warranty work could be like? You wanna be in the unfortunate position to have to call him for service down the road and have to worry about things?  

Something to think about.


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## fmsm (Dec 22, 2013)

ZBrooks said:


> Good news...He just emailed me and said that a new stove is on its way.  It should be here after the first of the year because of the holidays.
> 
> I am a confrontational person, sometimes too much, but I've learned to let people screw themselves to the point that I don't have to get emotionally charged up in the process of confronting them.  Just present the facts and use the English language as well as I can and let the other person sweat it out.  Sure, I am out the cash at the moment and it may get ugly when the topic of the pellets comes up, but I'm fairly confident that when I let him know that I know what kind of a stunt he pulled that he'll quit while he's behind.
> 
> ...



You sir are a gentleman, I would never have thought of the impact to his employees etc. I would have only thought of myself. 

I own and operate a few companies, one of them a product I sell online (totally unrelated to stoves) and my feedback is 100% fantastic with 0 unhappy customers since starting in 2009. The simple principal I adhere to is that I treat every customer the way I want to be treated, and I'm very much a high demand customer when making purchases. If this dealer had this attitude this thread would not exist!

Please let us all know the final results, and a very Happy Holiday season to you and your family, the world needs more people like you!


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## briansol (Dec 22, 2013)

I didn't read the whole thread....  so if this has been said, sorry.

But, you need to get off facebook/email and speak on the phone- or in person.  While going back and forth leaves a paper trail, it lacks the interpersonal interaction that is super important in any business deal.


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## Lousyweather (Dec 22, 2013)

chken said:


> That's very considerate, but certainly the employees know what kind of person they work for, and it didn't bother them enough to look for another job? I mean if you knew your boss was screwing someone, and you just went along with it, that's okay?



some people don't have a lot of choices.....and also, look at the folks who flock to work for the government.......


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## gfreek (Dec 22, 2013)

Lousyweather said:


> and also, look at the folks who flock to work for the government...



I'm looking at them, what am I supposed to see ??


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## Lousyweather (Dec 22, 2013)

Its an interesting post, and I also agree the OP has been patient. This type of dealer (and this type of story) certainly isn't something that one wants hear about. As I mentioned earlier, and the OP offered to provide, was the OTHER side of the story. All biases aside, everyone must agree there are two sides to any story. 
I applaud the OP for having the patience in what he/she has already done......not so sure I would be as patient. 
I have to say tho, AND I AM NOT SAYING THE OP IS ONE OF THESE, but there are certainly bad customers as well. You folks who aren't in the service-oriented business might not appreciate or even know of this, but its not always the dealer who is at fault. F'risntance. we walk away from self-installs which are unsafe. 3 appliances in one flue, and you're pellet stove needs service? Sorry, we wont bill you for the service (which we wont do in this case), buuut, we also aren't touching or fixing your unit. Its safer being broken. We own the unit if we work on it.....and have to think of your family and friends, first responders, etc. Well, the customer called up, abused the salesgirl and myself with foul and explicit language, and wonders why we wont service his unit? This one went to the BBB....funny, they (the BBB) saw it our way, and closed the complaint....our only one ever. Now, I don't know what this customer did do, but hey, they could have gone to the news, the papers, etc. and tried to ruin our reputation as well. And heck, we could have  (and possibly should have), gone to the building department.....

What Im saying is they scorched earth, sour grapes thing isn't always the best way to go.........Karma? Hopefully it will get them....


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## Lousyweather (Dec 22, 2013)

gfreek said:


> I'm looking at them, what am I supposed to see ??




if you have to ask, you wont understand.....


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## gfreek (Dec 22, 2013)

Lousyweather said:


> I'm looking at them, what am I supposed to see ?? if you have to ask, you wont understand



I look in the mirror every day


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## Lousyweather (Dec 22, 2013)

gfreek said:


> I look in the mirror every day



BINGO!


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## iceguy4 (Dec 22, 2013)

Lousyweather said:


> the OP offered to provide, was the OTHER side of the story. All biases aside, everyone must agree there are two sides to any story


 Agreed "no matter how thin the pancake , there is ALWAYS two sides"    I too am curious of th4 dealers position...BUT I suspect it will be weak.


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## Ash (Dec 22, 2013)

Lousyweather said:


> some people don't have a lot of choices.....and also, look at the folks who flock to work for the government.......


?


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## iceguy4 (Dec 22, 2013)

Lousyweather said:


> What Im saying is they scorched earth, sour grapes thing isn't always the best way to go


sometimes its my "default setting"  I find it best to wait "till cooler heads prevail"   waiting...not my strong suit..


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## Lousyweather (Dec 22, 2013)

iceguy4 said:


> sometimes its my "default setting"  I find it best to wait "till cooler heads prevail"   waiting...not my strong suit..



yea, and that's your personality, but your saving grace is you recognize it as well!

like ole Clint sez:  "a man must know his limitations..."


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## webbie (Dec 22, 2013)

Lousyweather said:


> BINGO!



Consider this a warning. Please adjust your attitudes or go to another site for awhile until you settle down. 

Disparaging people because they are in public service is so......well, so weak.

Thanks!


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## DOLLARBILL (Dec 22, 2013)

I pay for the ton of Pellets you got get a refund and run like Hell !


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## iceguy4 (Dec 22, 2013)

Lousyweather said:


> like ole Clint sez: "a man must know his limitations..."



 Clint??


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## iceguy4 (Dec 22, 2013)

Lousyweather said:


> but your saving grace is you recognize it as well!


 I've  been  thinking...Every time I went  with 





Lousyweather said:


> scorched earth


 I've regretted it. 
Got what I wanted...but regretted it.  I seem to be getting wiser as I age.


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