# Why is everyone against (garn)



## steelejones (Sep 14, 2009)

I need a woodboiler in the next two months, im looking very hard at the garn 1500.  I have a 1 story ranch with a large basement thats 39x75.  I hear everyone talking about not putting the wood and boiler in your basement??  Why not its been done for decades, why would you want to go outside to load your boiler when its -40F outside?  Now you have to build a new building to house your unit it, you have to insulate it and you have to plow to it each snow storm to get to it.  

Is there something im missing?  I have this HUGE basement ready to be used, why not store my wood inside of it, my boiler it in so i can get the full benefits of having my water stored in a conditioned space, where i dont have to go outside to start it and fill it ?

Any thoughts outside of the 'mess' involved?


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## stee6043 (Sep 14, 2009)

Perhaps you should search a little harder on this site.  I'd guess that somewhere between 60-80% of the users on this website have their boilers installed inside their homes (or shops, garages, etc).  I'd be shocked if we weren't in the majority here.

Having the boiler in the house and having your wood in the house are two very different issues.  Wood in the house, in my not so humble opinion, brings far too many insects and far too much moisture into the house to even be worth considering.  But that's just me.  I stack my wood under cover near my walk-out slider.  Easy access and the mess stays outside.


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## steelejones (Sep 14, 2009)

Hi Stee, I was specifically referring to the Garn WHS units, sorry.  I understand about the insects and moisture...


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## stee6043 (Sep 14, 2009)

Gotcha.  The Garn unit is big as I'm sure you've discovered.  It's physical size may be one of the reasons you might see fewer basement installations.  I've seen some very impressive threads on this website showing what it takes to move one.  Most indoor wood boilers will fit through a standard door opening.  Not so with the Garn...


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## steelejones (Sep 14, 2009)

Yeah besides having tons of room in the basement for the boiler and the wood I have a 6' entry door.....


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## steelejones (Sep 14, 2009)

It just seems to be that not many people talk about them in their basement and maybe because its difficult to get them in.  I in fact wonder about the smallest Garn full of fluid weighing 15,500lbs and what that would do to a 6" slab sitting on 4" of rigid foam and how to build enough strength to hold it for the long term.

I also am unsure what else I need for pumps, circulators etc for a 4 zone home with radiant tubing in the floor.


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## sdrobertson (Sep 14, 2009)

steelejones said:
			
		

> Yeah besides having tons of room in the basement for the boiler and the wood I have a 6' entry door.....



I love the Garn design and if I was building a new place I'd probably put it in during the construction.  I don't have the measurements, but I don't think you could get one through a 6' door.


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## steelejones (Sep 14, 2009)

right now its a rough opening so my door is a bit over 6'   It says on garn.com that the WHS 1500 is 6' wide...would be very TIGHT for sure.


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## pybyr (Sep 14, 2009)

I don't think you'll find many here who have anything negative to say about a Garn based on actual experience (or, for that matter, anything negative to say even if not based on direct experience).  

Garn owners seem, as far as I can tell, to be happy with their units, and many of us admire the elegant simplicity of the design.  

If I were working from a clean slate, I'd look seriously at  one, but there's no way it'd have fit down my Bilco basement hatch, and I in fact wanted my heating appliance in my cellar-- and did not want to build a new outbuilding for it.

Some people shudder at the initial purchase price of a Garn-- but if you look at the cost of a heat storage tank, plus multiple pumps and controls and heat exchangers that often come into play when someone installs an efficient wood boiler and separate storage (which the Garn, in large measure, incorporates in a simple way in a single unit), I am not sure that the Garn costs more on a full-system basis-- and it may cost less (of course you still need a heat exchanger if the heat zones are to be above the Garn).

If you are going to put a Garn in a cellar, you do have to make sure you have appropriate arrangements for exhaust.

It's all about what fits each person's needs/ preferences/ configuration.


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## steelejones (Sep 14, 2009)

Exactly, ive compared the costs somewhat myself...

Your calculations dont figure into the fact id have to spend about $3500 on a chimney that I currently dont have as well.  Plus storage, plus the boiler, etc. The costs get to be alot closer than alot of people realize.


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## Como (Sep 14, 2009)

I would say the Garn is cheaper, it depends on your circumstances. It would be tight through a 6ft opening.


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## flyingcow (Sep 14, 2009)

I say go for it. As you know, you may have to allow for access from the top, but you thought it was do-able. Weight is a concern, but I would hazard to guess you're all right, "6 is a good thickness. But few more dollars might be spent for extra support. Good luck with your endeavor. We all love pics of projects.
 Oh yeah, you may have to plan for making your door a little higher. Whatever you move this in with(i.e. steel pipes, etc) will ad more hight than you might figure. With the length, and if you are not completely level, from the outside to all the way in, it'll grow. I used to do a little rigging years ago, if you think it's going to be a tight fit, chances are it won't fit the first time( use an old chain on the saw  ). Good Luck.


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## steelejones (Sep 15, 2009)

problem is FlyingCow is that its an ICF home, all concrete    What part of Maine are you in ?


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## flyingcow (Sep 15, 2009)

steelejones said:
			
		

> problem is FlyingCow is that its an ICF home, all concrete    What part of Maine are you in ?


The very southern end of "The County".  Where about are you?
ICF--Well you'll need to get your measuring right, or use a demo saw and a 8lb sledge.


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## jebatty (Sep 15, 2009)

steee - no disrespect intended, but your question sounds like a straw man question. Put your Garn wherever you want. Just do it safely, pay attention to insurance and code requirements, if apply, and enjoy. Your Garn, your house, your choice.


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## heaterman (Sep 15, 2009)

steelejones said:
			
		

> I need a woodboiler in the next two months, im looking very hard at the garn 1500.  I have a 1 story ranch with a large basement thats 39x75.  I hear everyone talking about not putting the wood and boiler in your basement??  Why not its been done for decades, why would you want to go outside to load your boiler when its -40F outside?  Now you have to build a new building to house your unit it, you have to insulate it and you have to plow to it each snow storm to get to it.
> 
> Is there something im missing?  I have this HUGE basement ready to be used, why not store my wood inside of it, my boiler it in so i can get the full benefits of having my water stored in a conditioned space, where i dont have to go outside to start it and fill it ?
> 
> Any thoughts outside of the 'mess' involved?



Hi there Mr Jones

I'm a Garn rep in Michigan (wish you were here but....) here's my thoughts.

All Garn's are installed inside and they are UL listed for indoor use. No problem there. 

You don't need anything more than normal concrete under a Garn. The weight per sq foot is not any more than a regular gasser when you figure it out. We typically set them om 2" of foam board. 

If your house is all ICF construction it is going to be VERY tight with extremely low air infiltration. _You will most definitely have to supply some mechanical ventilation in the basement in order to prevent mold and fungi from growing rampantly on the wood pile. _ 

Getting a Garn in place is probably the part of the project that intimidates most people. After that, it is a very straighforward piece of equipment to pipe up. Very simple.

Venting is very simple if you have access to an exposed exterior wall. Use the 1500H horizontal vent unit and go straight out. If you have to go vertical with your vent you can start with the 1500V vertical exhaust but from there you will have some issues that you may or may not be able to surmount. I'd need to know what layout you have to work with in that case. There are pretty restrictive strict limits on how many bends you can put in any Class A chimney. That more than anything else is what will put a crimp on your plans.


PS: I'm working with a company that custom fabricates all types of insulation and we are in the process of coming up with a premade kit for the Garn. Look's like it's going to be pretty slick.


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## maplewood (Sep 15, 2009)

I've always had my wood burners and my wood storage inside.  I'm at least 3rd generation for thinking this way.  Seasoned wood has little moisture to put into the house, and I've never had any issue with bugs.  (Yes, a few spiders, a cricket once, and one piece of wood that had about 100 tiny ants that thought that my warm basement meant Spring had come early.)  I'm very happy to not have to go outside for my wood or to stoke a fire.  
I'm installing my Econoburn into my basement this weekend (I hope).  The old boiler comes out tonight (again, I hope).  The plumber comes next week (I ho... you know...).
And right after that, I'll be tightly stacking about 8.5 cord of seasoned Maple into my basement woodroom, and will start feeding the beast!
Happy burning.
PS - I'm in New Brunswick, just a bit NE of you.  Same weather, I suspect.


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## Jim K in PA (Sep 15, 2009)

steelejones said:
			
		

> I need a woodboiler in the next two months, im looking very hard at the garn 1500.  I have a 1 story ranch with a large basement thats 39x75.  I hear everyone talking about not putting the wood and boiler in your basement??  Why not its been done for decades, why would you want to go outside to load your boiler when its -40F outside?  Now you have to build a new building to house your unit it, you have to insulate it and you have to plow to it each snow storm to get to it.
> 
> Is there something im missing?  I have this HUGE basement ready to be used, why not store my wood inside of it, my boiler it in so i can get the full benefits of having my water stored in a conditioned space, where i dont have to go outside to start it and fill it ?
> 
> Any thoughts outside of the 'mess' involved?



I think you posed a question about getting a GARN in your basement a few weeks ago.  As long as you have a grade level entrance, you should be able to get it indoors.  I can tell you from experience that it will JUUUUUUST fit inside a 72" wide opening.  The tank ends are sligjhtly wider than the tank wall, and you can jockey it past them if you need to.  The thing you want to make sure of is that you have adequate ceiling height.  You need access to the top hatch, and a full 8' high ceiling is the minimum you should have.  9' would be better.

Other than that, no reason not to have the GARN itself indoors.  The standby losses will keep the basement comfortable.

As for storing the fuel in the basement, I would not keep more than the next 1-3 burns worth of wood inside.  Hibernating bugs will wake up in a few days, so I would not keep more than that much worth stored in your basement.

As to the "mess", the GARN is fairly clean, but you will get some fine dust from cleaning out the fire boxe every couple of weeks.  





			
				heaterman said:
			
		

> PS: I'm working with a company that custom fabricates all types of insulation and we are in the process of coming up with a premade kit for the Garn. Look's like it's going to be pretty slick.



Steve, you are SUCH a tease . . .  ;-P


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## flyingcow (Sep 15, 2009)

heaterman said:
			
		

> steelejones said:
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Steeljones...this is good advice.


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## fabguy01 (Sep 16, 2009)

[quote author="heaterman" date="1253033104
PS: I'm working with a company that custom fabricates all types of insulation and we are in the process of coming up with a premade kit for the Garn. Look's like it's going to be pretty slick.[/quote]probably the Garn Deluxe guy huh


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## SE Iowa (Sep 17, 2009)

SteelJones, is your icf home already built/backfilled?  Are you building it yourself?  I could kick myself for not making a dedicated room for a GARN.  I just didn't know that much about them at the time.  I could have easily put a 12 x 23 ft room under my back enclosed porch with an external exposed wall.  Would have only cost about $1000 more and probably would have been less work.  Oh well, good luck.  And by the way, I wonder if you could have some sort of passive air exchanger or vent in the basement for fressh air needs.  We do have moisture concerns especially in the winter if we do not run our HRV's.


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## Gooserider (Sep 17, 2009)

I don't think anyone on the forum is really "against" Garn as such - except maybe some of the dealers for the competition  :lol: We each may have reasons why we prefer different boilers for our own systems, and tend to talk about those reasons, but we all pretty much acknowledge that different folks have different priorities...  From where I see it, the only possible "problem" with a Garn is I'm a bit worried about the amount of juice drawn by that big blower motor, but I'm open to arguments that it isn't that much worse than a generic gasifier along with the pumps and such needed for storage...  

However in the right application I'm sure they would do an excellent job, and I wouldn't hesitate to suggest one if I thought it would be a good approach.  But as other posters have pointed out, there are also "problems" inherrent to the Garn design that make it not work for a lot of people, including myself...  The biggest is obviously the "BIG" problem - a Garn is big, and needs top access, which means a lot of us can't readily put one in our basements, where a standard gasser will fit through a normal door or a bulkhead stair (albeit w/ difficulty)...  Another is that a Garn has a bit different venting requirements, which can be a problem for some installs (and an advantage in others)

Bottom line is that while I would never consider a Garn for my system, it isn't because I'm "against" them, but simply because they wouldn't work for my situation...

Gooserider


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## steelejones (Sep 17, 2009)

Hey guys, a few comments back at you all.  First, I appreciate all your help and comments its helping me work through this process. I really have only a month or so to get my mind made up etc.

Today I got an estimate from a local company on installing it, it came to 28k...OUCH!  And that was me putting up the radiant tubing under the floor myself.

Second, I went and measured the door opening for the basement and its 77 inches wide if i remember.  

Third, I was actually considering keeping the Garn indoors and the wood outdoors, however that sounds like a pain in the butt in Northern Maine, but I may go that route.

I wish I really had a list of items that I actually need to hook to the garn to make it all work.  Im a DIY's in most areas of my home, i do my own electric and basic plumbing I just dont have much experience in heating.

I know If i do go the direction of the Garn, ill have to buy my first years wood all seasoned for me and that will be costly, but would let me work on cutting, splitting and storing next years wood etc.

Cost of 28k is going to be prohibitive for sure.


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## steelejones (Sep 17, 2009)

heaterman said:
			
		

> steelejones said:
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Heaterman, what do you customers do when installing in basements if the basement ceiling is 8" high, however the floor trusses are another 12+" in height to the bottom of the floor above that.

Im pretty sure i can get the Garn inside myself, with renting a forklift , i have direct access in that 77" basement door.  I may have to put rollers or something on the floor to get it into place once inside, but I can figure that out later.

As far as access outside, I was wondering if its possible to go verticle for roughly 3-5ft then horizontal with no issues ?


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## Jim K in PA (Sep 17, 2009)

Lawdy lawdy, I sure hope that $28k price INCLUDES the GARN unit.  IF not, it sounds like this contractor is unfamiliar with what needs to be done to set up a GARN.  I can see $10-$12k for a moderately complex setup, but not twice(+) that.


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## steelejones (Sep 17, 2009)

I believe it did include the price of the Garn....I actually want something SIMPLE in my setup, i dont want nor need anything complex.


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## RowCropRenegade (Sep 17, 2009)

Just got my concrete and infloor heat in for my Garn.

With everything, I should have 30,000 in my whole setup.  I won't say it's a cadillac setup, but it's darn close.  Fuel oil is at 2.5 a gal right now, so it still cash flows just fine.

With the area I could potentially heat someday, the garn was a no brainer for me.


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## flyingcow (Sep 17, 2009)

As far as the outside thing, that's what I'm doing with unit. My tarm is in an unattached garage(wood storage facility, that's what the ins company needed to call it to be happy ;-P ), with my wood supply in it. Usually in the dead of winter, I or my son, when he comes home from school, start a fire and fill firebox(takes about 10 minutes). Then depending on heat usage i may have to go and refill  sometimes only half. I get a little under 4 hours on a burn. This will take care of my heat for 24 hours. The Garn is a bigger animal. Have you done a heat load calc? 
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Now, I've got a farm tractor and looking for a reasonably priced FEL. When i get that, I'm going to set it up so when I split my wood I'm going to stack it on pallets, right off the splitter. Keep my wood outside for 2 years, than move in a few pallets as I need them. A a pallet will have just a half a cord, so in nov I'll put 5 or 6 pallets inside. Having the 10x10 door will work nice, that way i don't need to store all my wood inside the garage(whoops I meant wood storage facility) and take up room. I'll put the pallets of wood in a high dry place outside til needed. I don't like to handle the wood anymore than I need to. For me, that's a nice benefit of an out building for your boiler.
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Oh yeah, my furnace is in an insulated 8x12 room. Stays cozy enough between fires.
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*******trying to buy seasoned wood, get a moisture meter, most wood is not seasoned as much as they claim. Check it out first, dryer the better. Be a bummer to pay big money, and not get the performance out of it. Not sure how finiky the garn is, but you wouldn't be the first of us behind the 8 ball starting out. If you get a couple of cord right now(like this sat) and split it fine and stack it in a good area, it'll help. Find a big bunch of pallets to help out, pain in the azz to cut up and such, but will be a good help.
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GARN owners, how does it do on semi-seasoned wood?????????????


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## steelejones (Sep 19, 2009)

Im considering putting the boiler inside and the wood outside, and maybe bring in a weeks worth at a time or something.  However after saying that, im unsure how great its going to be walking out inside -30 and bringing in wood into a warm basement hahaha.

Just emailed the Maine rep about the following..

1. If i can go verticle flue for about 3-4 ft, then horizontal out of the house.

2. If he can send me a electronic installation manual via email.

As ive stated in the past, im a DIY kind of guy but my lack of knowledge on heating is great so im about to embarrass myself with the following questions....

a. How is domestic hot water heated as well as closed loop hot water for radiant heat seperated? or is there a seperate coil that ill need to attatch to a hot water tank for DHW ?


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## Gooserider (Sep 19, 2009)

There are (like most things hydronic) several different options on how to plumb stuff up with a Garn, and if you put it in your basement you get some choices that aren't as practical for folks with it in an outbuilding...

From what I've seen here, it seems that most folks have a loop coming out of the Garn that just goes through a flat plate heat exchanger, and back to the Garn - the other side of the heat exchanger is a conventional pressurized system.  I have seen some folks put the exchanger in the outbuilding with the Garn, others have put it in the basement, there are arguments that can be made for either approach, and it also somewhat depends on the individual install circumstances.

Once you are on the other side of the HX from the Garn, you can plumb things using any of the various approaches folks use with any other boiler - in effect the HX becomes your "virtual boiler" and the Garn dissapears, as all the system knows or cares is that there is a source of hot boiler water, not where it came from.  With the Garn in an outbuilding, you pretty much have to put the DHW tank on the system side of the HX because that's what you can access easily.

As an alternative, with the Garn in the house, presumably one could do an exchange coil on the Garn side of the HX instead, and that might also have some advantages with the right setup.  I would be very tempted to try doing a thermosiphon loop between the Garn and the DHW heater using a sidearm HX - no need for pump energy or expensive control plumbing other than a mix valve on the DHW out line, would keep the DHW tank at whatever temp the Garn was at, and probably give a near infinite supply of hot water.  If this was done, and the insulation on the Garn was good enough, I could even see shutting off the rest of the plumbing in the summer, and still keeping the DHW hot with one burn every few weeks...

Gooserider


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## Lazy Flame (Sep 20, 2009)

steelejones said:
			
		

> Hey guys, a few comments back at you all.  First, I appreciate all your help and comments its helping me work through this process. I really have only a month or so to get my mind made up etc.
> 
> Today I got an estimate from a local company on installing it, it came to 28k...OUCH!  And that was me putting up the radiant tubing under the floor myself.
> 
> ...




I feel ya. I opted out of a boiler system or alot of reasons, but the biggest was cost. I just built a small home for $30,000 in materials. 

I may still patch in a supplement system into my forced air gas unit in the "partial basement" What I am most curious is how you ppl get all that wood down stairs!! I know everyone can't have a walkout basement to back up to ;-)

There has to be an easier way than me taking it a sling at a time. I've already given some hard thought to a conveyor or something. 

Just curious, I'm awfully lazy.


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## Gooserider (Sep 20, 2009)

Lots of different approaches, including conveyors, chutes, etc...  I have it worse since I currently have to go UP about half a flight of steps to reach our woodstove - a basement setup would be easier if only because it means going DOWN instead...  What I use is a wood cart that I purchased from Harbor Freight - essentially a metal tube frame that is hung between a couple of bicycle wheels.  It will hold about 150 lbs of splits, or about 2.5 times as much as one of those slings.  The big wheels are good over obstacles, and make it relatively easy to drag the cart up the stairs - FAR easier than a sling, having tried both.

Gooserider


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## Lazy Flame (Sep 20, 2009)

Off topic- sorry= Ahhhh, gotcha. Like the wood chute I made to pour the concrete floor in my basement. The narrow doorway makes it a 2 person job. the chute will make the narrow stairwell impassable. 

I haven't installed anything in my small 2nd story on account of the flight of stairs. I'm just to lazy. If I do I may make a small basket or shelf lift. There is a 2nd story deck I could work in. Those were good ideas Goose. 

Downstairs I push my overloaded wheelbarrow up a ramp, into the sun room. As stated, I am waaaay lazy. I don't know what it weighs but I top it off to keep the trips down. 

Hmm. I need to patent a stove that sits inside the main room like an enormous fireplace but I can load it from outside like an OWB. It would sit in the exterior wall like a door or window and it could vent w/a traditional chiney. It would have glass inside so I could see the pretty flame but it wouldn't even have to open. Optional convection fans, heck, add combustion fans or heat jacket and make it a hybrid boiler. 

That would allow some radiant heat, still have boiler capacities, solve some smoke issues, help keep it from freezing in a pinch and I could use it for a pet door in the summer. 

When boilers are like that I'll buy 2!

And while I'm dreaming I wish to be smart, goodlooking and rich...


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## duane9835 (Sep 21, 2009)

We installed the greenwood in the garage it was to big to get in the basement, but its nice out there to just back up a trailer load of wood and your good to go.


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## rowerwet (Sep 21, 2009)

my wife likes the fact that the fire is outside, makes the house safer in her mind, she keeps asking how soon I'm going to fire up the OPB so she won't have to hear the oil beast in the basement.


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## Lazy Flame (Sep 21, 2009)

> We installed the greenwood in the garage it was to big to get in the basement, but its nice out there to just back up a trailer load of wood and your good to go.


That's more my style. Especially if I can leave the whole trailer in thier. Of course my wifey may have issues if she has to park outside.



> she keeps asking how soon I’m going to fire up the OPB so she won’t have to hear the oil beast in the basement.



*chuckle* I made a fire in the woodburner for the wifey. It was only 50deg outside, but the fire was pretty. A happy wife is a good thing!!

Gonna make sweet love down by the fire- _Chef on Southpark_

So you just run a stack thru the roof then? When boilers go truly smokeless we'll look at 'em again. The only spot I have is upwind from the house. How much does a garn smoulder I wonder if a 1/4 of the time it may sit idle.


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## loggie (Sep 21, 2009)

I was told the garn would turn my basement into a sauna by a garn rep,he recommended a truck box or shipping container.So I decided to go with a 3 pass switzer 1250 gal pressurized unit in my basement which just fit in my 6' door.I built a rack to hold a weeks worth of wood next to the boiler,I really don't have any bug problems,as all my wood is outside in a large shed and seasoned,I use my four wheeler with a trailer to bring in the wood every Saturday and I am done for the week.I am happy with my setup and would not want it any other way;but that is just me the next guy will say he would not want that in a million years, so to each his own but it is nice having all that heat in the basement and just going downstairs in your slippers to check the fire.good luck with your setup.


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## Gooserider (Sep 21, 2009)

Lazy Flame said:
			
		

> > We installed the greenwood in the garage it was to big to get in the basement, but its nice out there to just back up a trailer load of wood and your good to go.
> 
> 
> That's more my style. Especially if I can leave the whole trailer in thier. Of course my wifey may have issues if she has to park outside.
> ...



A big part of the Garn concept is that it NEVER idles if run properly - the idea is that you build a fire, which burns full blast until it goes out, heating all the water in that big tank.  You then draw your heat from the tank of hot water until it has cooled to the point of not being useful, at which point you build another fire...  The only caution needed is not to build such a long hot fire that the water reaches boiling - I'm told that 1500 gallons of boiling water is an impressive but scary sight...

The entire gasification boiler plus storage concept, whether it be a Garn or a conventional gasser, is that you spend as little time in idle mode as possible.  This is why they are so clean burning and efficient in their wood use.

Gooserider


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## Jim K in PA (Sep 22, 2009)

Lazy Flame said:
			
		

> When boilers go truly smokeless we'll look at 'em again. The only spot I have is upwind from the house. How much does a garn smoulder I wonder if a 1/4 of the time it may sit idle.



As Goose stated above, the GARN never idles.  It is a batch burn boiler, meaning you burn when you need to recharge the storage tank, not necessarily when the house is calling for heat.  It is as smokeless a boiler you can get and still burn wood.  Other gassifiers are the same.

The batch-burn nature of the GARN is, in my opinion, the most misunderstood characteristic of the unit.  People read the specs and see over 400k Btuh input, and think "that's WAAAAYYYY too big for my house".  Nope, ain't so.  That high input rating means you just burn for a couple of hours and all the heat you will need is stored for use as demand warrants.  My GARN only burns 4-8 hours out of every 24, and that much only on the coldest of days/nights.


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## got yerba mate (Sep 27, 2009)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> Lots of different approaches, including conveyors, chutes, etc...  I have it worse since I currently have to go UP about half a flight of steps to reach our woodstove - a basement setup would be easier if only because it means going DOWN instead...  What I use is a wood cart that I purchased from Harbor Freight - essentially a metal tube frame that is hung between a couple of bicycle wheels.  It will hold about 150 lbs of splits, or about 2.5 times as much as one of those slings.  The big wheels are good over obstacles, and make it relatively easy to drag the cart up the stairs - FAR easier than a sling, having tried both.
> 
> Gooserider


thanks so much, this chute idea is just quite something. I'm looking into putting in a boiler and now its definatly going into the basement, and a chute from the outside of the house where I can just dump the wood in with the skid steer, ( We'VE got a concrete slab in the big barn where we dry and store the fire wood )  and its all done. never touch the wood till I fead the stove ( the wood is scraps from our sawmill ) this is such a great site.


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## pybyr (Sep 27, 2009)

got yerba mate said:
			
		

> Gooserider said:
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If you have somewhat of a clean slate, you could put in a full-depth bump-out of the foundation with a Bilco door/hatch on top, and either no stairs or the ones that have planks that slide in and out of brackets.  Open hatch, dump wood down it.  Close hatch, go back inside and have a large pile of wood ready and waiting.  That's my method.

Or, based on what I saw the other day at a school woodchip heat facility, get a section of corrugated black poly culvert of moderately large diameter- and that has the smooth inside walls- and put it in on a diagonal from the outdoor upper elevation to the cellar, and you could have a nice slippery and relatively indestructable chute.


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## heaterman (Sep 27, 2009)

Lazy Flame said:
			
		

> > We installed the greenwood in the garage it was to big to get in the basement, but its nice out there to just back up a trailer load of wood and your good to go.
> 
> 
> That's more my style. Especially if I can leave the whole trailer in thier. Of course my wifey may have issues if she has to park outside.
> ...




_How much does a garn smoulder I wonder if a 1/4 of the time it may sit idle_

You just pinned the major difference between a Garn and anything else.   A Garn doesn't go into smolder mode. There is no on/off/on cycle in a 
Garn, just on and off until it needs more wood.


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## flyingcow (Sep 27, 2009)

Used to know a girl like that. :coolhmm:  Sorry, couldn't resist. %-P


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## zgambill (Oct 28, 2010)

Don't know what you have been reading but the Garn unit is in my opinion the best wood boiler available. I considered putting mine in my basement but decided to put in outside barn instead. Glad I did. You will not have much problem with smoke but the mess of bugs and bark and other things coming off the wood makes a real mess. The residual heat coming off the Garn heats my Garn barn. My dog loves it. I am a Plumbing contractor and have hooked up alot of Out door Wood Boilers. Nothing on the market can compare with the Garn.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Oct 28, 2010)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> There are (like most things hydronic) several different options on how to plumb stuff up with a Garn, and if you put it in your basement you get some choices that aren't as practical for folks with it in an outbuilding...
> 
> From what I've seen here, it seems that most folks have a loop coming out of the Garn that just goes through a flat plate heat exchanger, and back to the Garn - the other side of the heat exchanger is a conventional pressurized system.  I have seen some folks put the exchanger in the outbuilding with the Garn, others have put it in the basement, there are arguments that can be made for either approach, and it also somewhat depends on the individual install circumstances.
> 
> ...


 You answered the question I was going to ask & that was, does the Garn have a built in heat exchanger. I wonder why Garn doesn't put one in as standard? Flat plates to handle the Garns considerable output aren't cheap & just a bit of steel tubing in the hot boiler water would handle it. I had wondered what the top tubing bundle in Garnifications boiler was & this is probably it. Is Garn just trying to save a few bucks by not putting in an exchanger? Randy


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## heaterman (Oct 28, 2010)

Singed Eyebrows said:
			
		

> Gooserider said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The reason a flat plate does not come with a Garn, or any other unit I know of for that matter, is simply that there is no "one size fits all". The heat exchanger needs to be sized to the type of system and the heating load, not the Garn itself. The burn rate of a Garn has nothing to do with heat exchanger size.  While the Garn does burn at 300-400,000, the heat generated simply goes into the integral storage if not needed by your system.


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## ewdudley (Oct 28, 2010)

chainsaw pete said:
			
		

> Don't know what you have been reading but the Garn unit is in my opinion the best wood boiler available. I considered putting mine in my basement but decided to put in outside barn instead. Glad I did. You will not have much problem with smoke but the mess of bugs and bark and other things coming off the wood makes a real mess. The residual heat coming off the Garn heats my Garn barn. My dog loves it. I am a Plumbing contractor and have hooked up alot of Out door Wood Boilers. Nothing on the market can compare with the Garn.



Perhaps you meant to say the best _unpressurized_ wood boiler available.

http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm210/forestfamily64/Wood Heat/?action=view&current=P1010109.jpg&newest=1#!oZZ55QQcurrentZZhttp://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm210/forestfamily64/Wood Heat/?action=view&current=P1010066.jpg&newest=1

[Screen-scrape and paste as usual.  Remove one of the two spaces between 'Wood' and 'Heat'.]

--ewd


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## Singed Eyebrows (Oct 28, 2010)

heaterman said:
			
		

> Singed Eyebrows said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Heaterman: I had wondered why a tubing bundle was not welded in at the top of the Garn with one end the inlet & the other the output. This would fit all if I'm not mistaken as you could draw off the heat you needed. Flat plates have their limits as you say. You should be able to take 10,000 btu off an integral exchanger or 250,000 provided it is sized for the largest load, Randy


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## slowzuki (Oct 28, 2010)

A tube type HX has limits too. Has to be sized.  If you use the treatment program and test your water, an open system works well.  As soon as they start putting pressurized components you get into ASME stamps.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Oct 28, 2010)

slowzuki said:
			
		

> A tube type HX has limits too. Has to be sized.  If you use the treatment program and test your water, an open system works well.  As soon as they start putting pressurized components you get into ASME stamps.


 I was wondering this Slowzuki, that having a pressurized loop in a non pressure vessel might cause some code troubles, Randy


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## bigburner (Oct 28, 2010)

codes are for the manufactures, dipping a coil in a tank of hot water doesn't change anything. altering an approved design does and only if it is stamped. [ not every tank you buy is stamped look at the air compressor you bought from HD] every one who has modified a propane tank for storage has violated the stamp that the tank was produced under. technically  it would need to be re-certified for the application. History lesson -- these codes came about when steam boilers exploded  on a regular bases killing lots of people, a standard was required so that pressure vessels design was consistent. back then every thing was riveted and used stay bolts, then weld designs came along and being new technology it had it's problems for awhile also. not sure on current code but it used to be anything less then 6 inch diameter was not considered a pressure vessel and did not require a stamp & pipe over 6 inch installed in an approved matter didn't either.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Oct 28, 2010)

bigburner said:
			
		

> codes are for the manufactures, dipping a coil in a tank of hot water doesn't change anything. altering an approved design does and only if it is stamped. [ not every tank you buy is stamped look at the air compressor you bought from HD] every one who has modified a propane tank for storage has violated the stamp that the tank was produced under. technically  it would need to be re-certified for the application. History lesson -- these codes came about when steam boilers exploded  on a regular bases killing lots of people, a standard was required so that pressure vessels design was consistent. back then every thing was riveted and used stay bolts, then weld designs came along and being new technology it had it's problems for awhile also. not sure on current code but it used to be anything less then 6 inch diameter was not considered a pressure vessel and did not require a stamp & pipe over 6 inch installed in an approved matter didn't either.


 Each state,each city & each township can have their own ordinances. I know putting a coil in a pressure vessel that has different pressure than the tank can violate code & since many Hearth members are modifying(manufacturing) their tank/boiler they still need to be built to the areas code. That is why I remarked that just a pressure coil in a non pressure vessel may not allow the manufacturer to sell as a open boiler anymore or put the owner in violation. Codes are for everyone, both manufacturers and owners, otherwise no one would need to worry about the Euro boilers that don't meet code in some areas, Randy


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## bigburner (Oct 29, 2010)

Sounds like we are talking about two different things. All i am saying is that when a shop builds a pressure vessel that will require a stamp, that the design is along a strict set of standards and any modification. negates that standard. Not all pressure vessels require a stamp. an unpressurized boiler isn't a pressure vessel.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Oct 29, 2010)

bigburner said:
			
		

> Sounds like we are talking about two different things. All i am saying is that when a shop builds a pressure vessel that will require a stamp, that the design is along a strict set of standards and any modification. negates that standard. Not all pressure vessels require a stamp. an unpressurized boiler isn't a pressure vessel.


 Nothing I would dissagree with here Bigburner, Randy


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## Gooserider (Oct 29, 2010)

I wouldn't mind seeing Garn include some form of HX, even if it is just a bunch of pipes, as an option for folks that want it.  But as others have pointed out, there may be code restrictions in some areas that wouldn't allow them.  It is also definitely the case that not all installs would need any sort of HX, or have needs that indicate an external HX...  I certainly can understand Garn's logic in choosing just to give the customer a big tank, and letting them add whatever sort of interface connection they need...  

Another possible issue may be concern about mixed metal related corrosion - I know that Garn is supposed to have some pretty stiff requirements on how much distance they want to see in black iron pipe before any other metal fittings.  Given that one wouldn't want to have potential corrosion issues in either the tank, or a difficult to inspect submerged HX, I can see why they'd want to keep the HX out of the tank where it can be seen easily.

Gooserider


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## Singed Eyebrows (Oct 29, 2010)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> I wouldn't mind seeing Garn include some form of HX, even if it is just a bunch of pipes, as an option for folks that want it.  But as others have pointed out, there may be code restrictions in some areas that wouldn't allow them.  It is also definitely the case that not all installs would need any sort of HX, or have needs that indicate an external HX...  I certainly can understand Garn's logic in choosing just to give the customer a big tank, and letting them add whatever sort of interface connection they need...
> 
> Another possible issue may be concern about mixed metal related corrosion - I know that Garn is supposed to have some pretty stiff requirements on how much distance they want to see in black iron pipe before any other metal fittings.  Given that one wouldn't want to have potential corrosion issues in either the tank, or a difficult to inspect submerged HX, I can see why they'd want to keep the HX out of the tank where it can be seen easily.
> 
> Gooserider


 Goose, Are some people just pumping the Garn boiler water through their system without an exchanger? I know even the non pressure storage uses exchangers normally. Some of this I don't understand, like some that don't keep the city feedwater pressure hooked up, do they just rely on the circulating pump? Randy


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## Gooserider (Oct 29, 2010)

Singed Eyebrows said:
			
		

> Gooserider said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My understanding is that some folks do...  There is no specific reason that one can't go unpressurized if your system is designed appropriately, the elevations are right, and so forth...  The biggest single reason to need an HX is if one is interfacing the Garn with a system that has a pressurized conventional boiler in it already, or if the altitudes of the boiler vs. the rest of the system make it necessary / easier...

Gooserider


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