# PV is too difficult



## Circus (Jan 21, 2017)

PV is too difficult
With modern micro inverters etc, there's no reason it couldn't be a simple diy, tie it down, plug it in and forget about it.  Is there any way "the powers that be" could tell if I did just that? Say a 1000 watt worth?

Brutal reply's are OK


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## Where2 (Jan 21, 2017)

Yes, they can tell, especially if you have a smart meter.

If you want to do grid tied, then just jump through the hoops.

Worst case, something else causes the house to catch fire and the insurance adjuster starts asking questions about why the fire department didn't dare put a hose on the house when they saw the panels and couldn't find a clearly labeled solar disconnect...


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## peakbagger (Jan 22, 2017)

The reason for the complexity is PV systems are installed for the long term and as long as the panels are in the sunlight they can generate hazardous voltages. Even if an owner is willing to take the risk of a non code install future owners may not realize the risk. Actually microinverter based solar is pretty much plug and play. Unfortunately plug and play does not repeal the law of physics. Backfeeding a branch circuit with PV generation sets up a potential for the wiring inside the walls to exceed the rating of the wiring and that can cause fires. Same thing with backfeeding an inadequately sized main panel. A really simple example is using tie wraps and wiring that is not rated for outdoor elevated temperature use. I have a SHW system that I used standard tie wraps to route a ground cable, it looked great but the tie wraps failed due to UV damage in about one season. It was annoying with no potential hazardous voltages but it would be a different story if they were PV cables moving around in the wind rubbing on the roof.   

Unfortunately microinverter based systems do have their limitations. To make them plug and play, they are an engineered proprietary system including all the cabling and connectors. If you buy a system from one company and they go out of business your investment may be stranded due to parts not being available. Enphase a major supplier of microinverter systems is skirting on edge of bankruptcy and they have had at least one high profile recall. Other firms like Sunpower also have recalls and even though they are still in business, getting warranty service is apparently quite frustrating. Long term longevity of microinverters is also still in question. Bolted on the back of panel on top of roof is a hard place for electronics. Standard high voltage systems use standard wiring and cabling, it does makes things easier to fix.  

I do agree that some utilities make it difficult to connect. That's a political issue that varies utility by utility. My experience was quite painless.


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## Circus (Jan 22, 2017)

peakbagger said:


> The reason for the complexity is PV systems are installed for the long term... code... . Backfeeding can cause fires... UV + physical damage.
> 
> Unfortunately microinverter based systems... proprietary... and is skirting on edge of bankruptcy
> 
> I do agree that some utilities make it difficult to connect. That's a political issue that varies utility by utility. My experience was quite painless.



Obviously nominal standards apply which would amount to about a paragraph. The rest are artificial hurtles to discourage, cost you money and protect turf.


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## peakbagger (Jan 22, 2017)

Looks like we have differing opinions. Barring that you are active contributor to the NEC code board I guess we need to disagree unless you care to identify in detail what in your opinion are requirements that are artificial. I have designed and installed three grid tie systems and really haven't found many artificial requirements although the labeling requirements are getting close.


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## Circus (Jan 22, 2017)

peakbagger said:


> Looks like we have differing opinions.



No not really, just frustrated with all the qualifiers.  Twenty years ago I asked my HO insurance carrier about a wood burning stove. Fine as long as there's proof it's done by a qualified contractor. That requirement eliminated the reason to do it. To save money.


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## begreen (Jan 22, 2017)

It's not all that complicated and the process for us was logical. As soon as you tie the solar to the grid there are many more safety considerations needed. The system must not backfeed when grid power is off. That could shock or electrocute a lineman. For safety reasons also there need to be approved and clearly labeled disconnects. This all will require inspection to assure that code is followed for wire sizing, disconnects, grounding and good workmanship. Metering and billing has to change in order to track the local production into the grid. Some additional paperwork is going to be required if state or federal credits apply.


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## iamlucky13 (Jan 23, 2017)

Circus said:


> Obviously nominal standards apply which would amount to about a paragraph. The rest are artificial hurtles to discourage, cost you money and protect turf.



You could say that about the entire national electric code: it could just be a few pages.

In reality, it's 900 pages of responses to past instances of fires, injury, or death. Grid-tied solar installs have to fit within that framework for the same reasons.

It's not that every deviation is a guaranteed accident, but rather that there's a balance between providing leeway for different approaches and effectively preempting the genuinely dangerous stuff.

That said, as far as I know, the requirements for solar aren't actually all that complicated. There's just not a comprehensive DIY guide, and logistical matters that are unique to each install like where to locate the disconnect and how to route the wiring to there will still vary.

As far as I know, however, in most jurisdisctions, the homeowner can mount the panels, function/disconnect boxes, physically run all the wires, etc, and limit the work hired out to a licensed electrician being to double-check and terminate everything.

Oh, and begreen caught another complication - paperwork and standards for incentives. When I had my heat pump installed, that was actually more complicated than the standards and permit paperwork for the heat pump itself.


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## Where2 (Jan 23, 2017)

I understand the frustration with qualifiers. When I first began looking into assembling a DIY grid tie system, I'd just finished a course at the local community college called "Intro to Solar Energy". My 78 year old father and I aced the class. The first thing the local building department told me when I asked about a DIY system was that ALL PV Systems needed a State of Florida certification number. (our instructor never mentioned that) That sent me home to figure out if it was possible for anyone other than a licensed electrical contractor to submit a system for qualification and certification? [Yes, in Florida, anyone who wants to can follow the NEC standards and submit a system for certification by supplying a three line electrical diagram, along with a $250 check. If it meets the NEC rules and uses state certified panels and UL compliant inverters, even a homeowner can receive a certification number.] I had to borrow a copy of the 2008 NEC from a friend, then figure out what had changed for the 2011 NEC, because my system design had to be NEC 2011 compliant. For those who aren't familiar, the NEC is published by the NFPA who are rather proud of their "manual". I didn't have whatever ridiculous sum of money it cost to plunk down on a book to get this project started. Most of what I needed to know was in my $83 text book from my solar class.  

Then the building department said: "We need to know it won't blow off the roof".  Called up my favorite structural engineer in Colorado (who used to live two blocks away before the recession. Fortunately he retained and renews his FL PE license). He said: Send me all your documents and some sketches of how you propose to mount this setup. Within a few weeks, I had a signed, stamped, engineering drawing package.

I scrimped, and saved, and worked two jobs to pay for all the bits and pieces I'd need to put my PV setup on the roof. It took more than 2 years to save enough $$$ and volunteer for enough overtime to piece together all the parts I'd need. It started with a pallet of panels. Then a handful of inverters a few months later. Then a few more inverters a few months after that. Then it was a half a box of tile hooks, then another box months later. Then it was trunk cable when I could afford it. Followed by TC-ER cable. Then rails. Months later, I could afford a spool of ground wire, ground splices, ground clamps and WEEBs. I was determined, and it certainly took buy-in from my wife.

In the end, the one hurdle we never could get over was the local utility's $2/W incentive program for PV which required getting your name on a waiting list that was only open twice a year. The list was maintained on a power company website and filled up within three minutes of the list opening for sign ups at 8AM on a Tuesday!! Putting your name on that list also required specifying the licensed electrical contractor you were using to install your PV array. Despite the $8800 in incentives we couldn't obtain after numerous attempts to get our name on the list. We vowed to go it alone, collect our federal credit (no state credits), and lower our electric bill every day the sun comes up.


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## peakbagger (Jan 24, 2017)

Sounds to me like you decided to trade off sweat equity compared to paying a pro. A pro in theory has spent time keeping up to date with the NEC as it changes. Part of sweat equity is getting educated and I expect you have a right to complain to the local community college is they elected to use out of date material.

Given the high likelihood that you are in high wind zone, I fully agree that having a structural engineer review the proposed rail system I needed. A typical homeowner is probably not planning for peak wind speeds and I expect in a high wind situation PV panels being lifted off a roof and into air becomes a hazard.

I will agree that PV incentives can be PITA as you found out, play the game get the bucks. Unfortunately the history for these incentive programs going all the way back to SHW systems is less than good. Crooks would figure out a way to game the system to put in substandard installations that don't meet code. By forcing the installer to prove the design is complaint with the rules the owner doesn't get stuck with something that can not be hooked up to the utility.


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## Circus (Jan 24, 2017)

peakbagger said:


> Sounds to me like you decided to trade off sweat equity compared to paying a pro.



My opinion of mandated "experts" is colored by experience. More than once I had to rework their work, or lack of it, in the middle of the night. Luckily they're lazy as well as narcissistic and greedy so they leave my corrections be.


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## peakbagger (Jan 24, 2017)

Good pros and bad pros out there, its up to the owner to sort them out. On the limited systems I have seen, the amateur systems are the scariest by far. When I was residing in VT for awhile I ran into several former off gridders whose story frequently started out as "after the fire or the house burned down". I have also seen some homegrown systems up close that were one step from fire or electrocution. At least something installed by a pro is protected by professional liability. No matter what the shortcuts a pro does he can get his butt sued off and that liability is forever.

It does appear to be that you have a hair across your butt and basically appear to be trolling for justification to do as you please. Maybe you will be lucky and at some point in the life of your PV system install you may not have an issue. That's a personal decision and maybe you might live to be in charge of that decision but there is far greater likelihood that someone down the line may get bit by your decisions. I and many others don't go that way, we use the best guidance we can get at the time from an established authority and we install PV systems using that guidance


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## Circus (Jan 24, 2017)

peakbagger said:


> basically appear to be trolling for justification to do as you please



Just the opposite. Where I live, in lieu of local inspectors (there are none), licensed contractors (plumbing, electrical, heat etc) are mandated and the contractors are well aware if it. $$$$$$, and for shoddy work. 

PS I'm enjoying this heated debate.


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## Where2 (Jan 26, 2017)

peakbagger said:


> Sounds to me like you decided to trade off sweat equity compared to paying a pro. A pro in theory has spent time keeping up to date with the NEC as it changes. Part of sweat equity is getting educated and I expect you have a right to complain to the local community college is they elected to use out of date material.



Actually, the community college course I took was not out of date. The text book we used, and the 2008 NEC I borrowed were "current" when I took my class. Remember, the NEC is a rolling progressive revision, you have (at most) three years and the NEC will publish a new one. The AHJ is the final authority, seek their guidance on how much grace period they provide when a new NEC comes out. I didn't take the course intending to install my own PV system. I took the course with the intent that it would supply me with some of the knowledge I would need to keep an unscrupulous contractor from taking me for a ride, if I ever chose to purchase a PV system. It wasn't until after I was working on my final project for the course that I realized how simple grid tied microinverter systems are. 

Where our second home is, there are no permits or inspections required, except plumbing. Our friend who lives in the town full time says that can be a blessing, and a curse. He sees all sides of the coin as a handyman and a volunteer fire fighter/first responder. You can live as dangerously as you choose there, but the houses are typically far enough apart that your faulty wiring probably won't burn down the neighbors house.


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## jebatty (Jan 29, 2017)

Almost everything is too difficult without the needed knowledge, skill, tools, supplies and effort. I'm not saying that some things may have requirements which some people find unnecessary or unduly expensive. 

With regard to PV for our home, I hired an experienced designer with a proven track record, and I hired an experienced installer and electrician to do the labor. Together they provided the panels, racking, wiring, meters and everything required for the system. One week to install the concrete footings and allow them to cure, and one more week to complete the install, have the system inspected by the state electrical inspector, and have the utility test the system for grid compliance and give the OK to interconnect. Zero issues or delays on the install and zero issues now more than 3 years later related to the install. One micro-inverter failure replaced and installed under warranty at zero cost. 

Things like PV, or brain surgery, become too difficult when there is lack of needed knowledge, skill, tools, supplies and effort. I considered doing this myself, but for a one-time effort, it was not worth my time to obtain and apply the needed knowledge, skill, tools, supplies and effort. And I suspect if I had self-installed, I would have come up with many complaints and/or issues regarding the difficulty of the task. The pros already had learned about and solved those before starting my install, so the install was "effortless." Meanwhile, our system now has provided more than 39MWh of electricity and we no longer have an electric bill to pay. 

PV is very easy.


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## Supersurvey (Jan 31, 2017)

You can install yourself.   Just google plug and play solar.  It looks promising  and it's UL listed.  It still qualifies for a tax credit?


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## begreen (Feb 1, 2017)

jebatty said:


> PV is very easy.


Super simple, I let the company selling the installation fill out the paper work, get the permits, etc.. All I had to do was sign the check.


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## peakbagger (Feb 1, 2017)

Supersurvey said:


> You can install yourself. Just google plug and play solar. It looks promising and it's UL listed. It still qualifies for a tax credit?



Beware, just because its on google doesn't mean its legal anywhere in the US. The components may be UL listed but doesn't mean that they can be assembled in a way that are against the NEC. It comes down to caveat emptor, if a consumer is stupid enough to buy it, someone will sell it. Same with the tax credit, anyone can claim it, if they don't get audited they get away with it. In order to legally qualify for the tax credit its got to be a permanent install. Its not just small sellers who use this loop hole, Harbor Freight and Northern Tool both liberally mark PV equipment with Tax Credit qualified markings. If installed properly per NEC they might be able to qualify but the seller is quite aware that a typical buyer will not install it in a code compliant manner.

I expect more than few folks get duped by this crap and some percentage of them are the least able to afford it.


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