# generator advice



## saichele (Aug 27, 2007)

The line of storms that came through knocked us off the grid for 48 hrs this weekend, third prolonged failure this year.  I was able to borrow a generator to keep things chilled, now I'm looking at a backup generator.  

Does anyone have any opinions of the relative merits of Gas vs. NG vs. Diesel?  I'm hoping to put relatively few hrs/yr on it, but need something in the 6-8000 watt range.  I have the NG plumbed to the desired location, so all are options.   I know there are a couple vendors with dual fuel units, anyone have experience with those?

Thanks
Steve


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## babalu87 (Aug 27, 2007)

If it is within your budget go diesel, they burn less fuel and run almost forever if you keep up with oil changes and fuel filters.
The only thing to think about is the fuel issue, where would you store it? We have an oil burner for hot water so I would run mine off that tank.

Second choice would be one that runs on NG. Think of it this way, when you need a Genset to run what are the chances that you are going to have enough gas around to keep it running? Siphoning out of your car/truck may be a real possibility. I dont know much about the duel fuel units but since you are plumbed for NG a unit that runs on NG only would be a good choice.

All that said, I have a 6500 watt with a gas engine 
It has a saddle tank.


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## saichele (Aug 27, 2007)

I have a fair amount of equipment around (tractor, bobcat, pickup, 4 cars), so short of the apocalypse I have enough gas to keep a 10hp motor running for a few days.  I was mainly looking into efficiency, maintenance, reliability, that sort of thing.

Steve


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## babalu87 (Aug 27, 2007)

Steve said:
			
		

> I have a fair amount of equipment around (tractor, bobcat, pickup, 4 cars), so short of the apocalypse I have enough gas to keep a 10hp motor running for a few days. * I was mainly looking into efficiency, maintenance, reliability, that sort of thing.*
> Steve



Diesel it is then.
If one was within the budget when we bought ours that is what I would have gone with, in hindsight I should have anyway but I am happy with ours now that I tinkered with the fuel adjustments. 
Seems those little gas motors dont like that ethanol blend fuel.


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## Mike Wilson (Aug 27, 2007)

FWIW, I use a Generac 6500... 6500 constant draw and 8000 surge.  Its a commercial model that is ported to run on gas OR propane, as needed.  I keep 30 gallons of treated fuel at the house, plus 10 in the Generac's tank.  Basically, that will serve me for 2-3 days, depending on use.  After that, I can connect to the swimming pool heater tank, which should last until God shows up.  After that, I have a brother with a 45' cigarette boat and about 600 gallons of premium gas in the tanks, and he's going to be hit with my siphon!

-- Mike


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## BrotherBart (Aug 27, 2007)

For data center backup and 911 center generators we always used NG where possible. Diesel if not. The problem with gas and diesel backup generators is the fact that gas and diesel, especially the stuff formulated now, starts going south the minute it comes out of the refinery. There are addtives to try to stabilize them but heat and moisture are killers for both fuels. The stuff is out of spec in just a few weeks at most.

With NG that genset can sit there for ten years and when needed clean ready to go fuel is waiting for it in the NG line.

I run gas generators here for backup but run them dry after every use.


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## Highbeam (Aug 27, 2007)

I have a barrel of diesel at home for my tractor but a gasoline generator because a diesel genset costs a LOT. Try pricing out that 8000 watt diesel genset and you will see what I mean. If you are willing to depend on NG service to run the genserator then I am not so sure that I would prefer a diesel anyways. NG/LPG generators are almost as cheap as gasoline but run cleaner and more dependably because of the complete combustion and the shelf life of the fuel. The tradeoff when going to a NG/LPG genset is the loss of portability.

Efficiency doesn't really matter since you don't use it much and with a large fuel source such as a NG pipeline, there is no supply shortage. Do you mean cheap to run or you want it efficient so that a limited fuel supply is sufficient to keep your ice cubes solid?

Maintenance is nearly the same on all of them. The worst thing you can do is to let it set. Generators die from lack of use.

Reliability is another vague question. Reliability of the fuel source puts NG/LPG above diesel since the diesel fuel can go sour. Diesel gensets are very expensive because of the high quality parts and assembly leading to typically better mechanical reliability. Though this is not necessarily the case with a quality NG/LPG genset made by a company like onan/cummins.  

For a permanent installation of a backup genset I will recommend NG/LPG for several reasons including cost, ease of use, and fuel supply.


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## Hogwildz (Aug 27, 2007)

I am also looking into a backup generator in the future.
We don't have NG available, although the pipeline runs under our road.
I did some research about the diesel & propane generators. I don't have the figures anymore, but if you do a comparison of how much of each fuel is used, I found that Propane was the way to go for me. I have been looking at an automatic 20KW generator, prolly about $6,000.00 after installation. But will handle almost the entire house, and kicks on & off automatically. Also self tests once a week I believe. Of course, its down lower on the list of things to do right now.


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## keyman512us (Aug 28, 2007)

Steve said:
			
		

> I have a fair amount of equipment around (tractor, bobcat, pickup, 4 cars), so short of the apocalypse I have enough gas to keep a 10hp motor running for a few days.  I was mainly looking into efficiency, maintenance, reliability, that sort of thing.
> 
> Steve



One question you skipped over though was $$$ range. What are you wanting to spend "to keep the lights on". Also are you out in the country or fairly urban???

If you live out in the country (and have a well) 6500 watts is a good 'baseline' to start at. If you live in the city? You might be able to get by with 3000 watts. If you live in the city and most of your house is NG (heat, stove, HW etc) you could go buy a little 1500watt whisper quiet Honda and let it run all night.

It all depends on your situation.

A 6500 watt OHV engined generator is short money compared to a hard piped, fixed in place GENSET. Once its bolted down it becomes a 'GENSET' big difference in price...and what it takes to hook it up...as well as maintain it.

While everybody "sings the praises" of NG fired gensets...take a close look where you live. If your neighborhood is fed from a high pressure gas transmission line with the regulator assembly sitting right next to a light pole that feeds the whole town and it happens to be the busiest intersection in town...(you know where this is going)... How upset would you be if the lights were off and had no NG???

Secondly when it comes to NG fired gensets the $$$ figure for maintenance comesd into play. A NG fired engine takes more of a 'beating' than a diesel one.

If you wanted to go the genset route I would suggest diesel vs NG or even propane.

NG is not 100% reliable. Legally required stanby systems (such as hospitals or other critical care facilities) cannot be solely on NG as a fuel.

If you are fairly 'handy' and well versed (burning wood kinda qualifies you for that) I would size up how big of an electrical load you have and go with a portable generator. Have a Gentran style switch installed (6 or 12 circuit) model and pick the circuits in the house you would want "in case of a power failure". One kitchen circuit is always adviseable..(fridge and microwave...at least you can make some hot choclate/coffee).

If you have a garage have the electrician look at putting a "remote generator tie-in" closest to the best suited door so you can roll the generator outside and plug it in as close as possible.

One thing I definately want to mention as a word of caution:

I know there are probably some right here on the forum that have made a "double ended cord" to get by cheap and nice and easy...but it is very dangerous to do this. All it takes is forgetting one time to turn off the main and you could in-advertantly kill the people trying to put the lights back on for you....Never use a double ended cord.

I installed a few "generator hook-ups" over the years...the Y2K scare was very good for business (to bad I was an apprentice at the time)....

As is always said...a few more detrails and pictures would go a long way to helping you to decide the best option.


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## keyman512us (Aug 28, 2007)

Steve said:
			
		

> The line of storms that came through knocked us off the grid for 48 hrs this weekend, third prolonged failure this year.  I was able to borrow a generator to keep things chilled, now I'm looking at a backup generator.
> 
> Does anyone have any opinions of the relative merits of Gas vs. NG vs. Diesel?  I'm hoping to put relatively few hrs/yr on it, but need something in the 6-8000 watt range.  I have the NG plumbed to the desired location, so all are options.   I know there are a couple vendors with dual fuel units, anyone have experience with those?
> 
> ...



One good thing about having a portable generator is "the buddy system". Luckily for you, you had a friend that had a generator might be a good idea to get a similiar portable one and thank your friend by offering the use of yours should theirs fail. Unless it's a major storm the likelyhood of a friend across town not having power either is less likely than neighborhood outages.

Personally, I own a welder/genset with a 6500 watt section and also have a 3000 watt portable gas job.

If you do go the "fixed in place" route..I would shy away from buying from "the big box stores".

I'm not going into any detail on that...I don't want their lawyers 'knocking at my door tommorow'...


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## saichele (Aug 28, 2007)

I've been doing a little comparison shopping, and here's where I'm at - 

Price is an issue, and frankly I don't think this is a sufficiently big concern that I'll spring the 4-6K it would take to have a permanent 'GENSET.'  Also has the appeal of making it a portable, long-term asset rather than a 'never see it in resale' home improvement.  This makes the NG hookup less appealing because for the few hrs a year I'd run it, I probably wouldn't even recover the cost of the shelter and install, let alone the extra cost of getting a dual fuel unit (they seem to start in the low $2K range for 6000 watt).

For the purposes of the past weekend, I did exactly what keyman said not to - cut the main, and backfeed through the garage (used the friend's double ended cable).  Worked OK for an emergency, but not a long-term fix.  My intent is to do a manual toggle switch, but that's going to require a real electrician since it'll require pulling the meter.  

What I'm finding is that there are a fair number of 30A 220, 6 or 7 kW units available across the $1K to $2K range, going from a Coleman Black Max (Sams Club, $928 + tax) to a Honda EB 5000 (ok, only 5kW).  

So I'm looking at gas, electric start, about 6kW, and starting to refine the search.  Sound becomes a concern (the Coleman loner was LOUD), along potentially with 'cleanliness' of the power.  Most report a decibel rating, but as to the cleanliness - what sorts of things are sensitiv and what aren't?  Does running the computer off a UPS address any fluctuations in the current?  Honda makes some inverter generators, but those are considerably more pricey - in the $3K+ range.  

Thanks
Steve


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## keyman512us (Aug 28, 2007)

Steve said:
			
		

> I've been doing a little comparison shopping, and here's where I'm at -
> 
> Price is an issue, and frankly I don't think this is a sufficiently big concern that I'll spring the 4-6K it would take to have a permanent 'GENSET.'  Also has the appeal of making it a portable, long-term asset rather than a 'never see it in resale' home improvement.  This makes the NG hookup less appealing because for the few hrs a year I'd run it, I probably wouldn't even recover the cost of the shelter and install, let alone the extra cost of getting a dual fuel unit (they seem to start in the low $2K range for 6000 watt).
> 
> ...



As to the 'cleanliness' issue... I would say "not all are created equal". In my case...I wouldn't try to sit on-line(on the computer) powered by the welder/genset. The 3000 watt portable maybe. If your computer has a good ups system your computer is pretty safe as most decent UPS system "condition" the power supplied to them. Worst comes to worse a week down the road your UPS might start acting up.

Clean power wise (I'm not plugging for Honda BUT) the Honda EB series "got it right" in the generator market. 

Ratings wise, there are two numbers you need to look at: Rated watts and Surge watts. A 5000 watt rated generator often will be 'surge capable' up to say 6500 watts for short bursts. Very handy if you have to run a well pump. The "cheaper" units (coleman, generac etc) often aren't "wound too tightly". They do the job but usually aren't too "overbuilt". The Honda Line however would get my "bulletproof" rating.

Having said that you can still find the middle of the road. My portable is a DAPC (Devilbis Air Products Company-known to painters) 120 volt 3000 watt OHV engined manual start. I bought it at HD (prior to the whole Y2K scare) for like $350 bucks. At the time it was the best suited for what I wanted/needed. The biggest requirement was whatever model I bought..it had to be an OHV engine...lawn mower style engines and generators just don't work to well IMHO. I figured it would be nice to have and would come in handy around the jobsites for running skilsaws etc... but to push an air compressor?? Unless it's the pancake one it doesn't do the trick. I keep the generator in my tool trailer with the pancake compressor and it pays for itself.

With OHV...reliability is addressed as well as some sound issues. An OHV engine doesn't sound like your atypical lawnmower... kind of important if you have neighbors and are going to be running it at night.

I would recomend you "take it to the next step"...look in the yellow pages for a Honda dealer that carries the generator line made by Honda. Go to the showroom and start eye-ing what one you would want. If for no other reason to check out their really quiet models. A buddy of mine has one of their suitcase style ones (think its' rated at 900 watts/1200 surge) that he got for the RV when he goes to Nascar races. I borrowed it one weekend to go to the cabin in Vermont... definatley a nice little unit! Quiet! 

You don't necessarily have to buy from the dealer. Educate yourself in the showroom. Personally, I would start looking on Ebay, Craigslist, Want-Ad/Thrifty Nickel type places and look for the deals.

Ideally... Sounds crazy but you could go with two generators: Start with the little whisper quiet Honda 1000 watt job and then find a nice 6500 watt jobber to add to your reliability factor.

The whisper quiet Honda will have you "covered" for the average neighborhood outage...if it's a long duration outage...repeating what you did for this storm (borrowing your buddies' to keep the freezer cold) would be in order. The smaller generator has it's limitations...but it's advantages...the smaller sized can run 24/7 on very little fuel usage and is whisper quiet. The smaller tank makes it easier to do what BB does (run it dry) A 5-gallon gas (you probably have for the lawn mower anyway) would ensure a decent quality fuel is available.
The smaller generator would best be suited to run your computer or the microwave...just gotta be a little creative. Running a sole 6500watt generator for extended periods??? A waste IMHO

I would get the two...run the little one constantly in an outage...and use "the big daddy" every 8 hours or so...Just my $.02


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## keyman512us (Aug 28, 2007)

Perhaps the best way to look at being "covered in an outage" is to think of this topic/concept as "Standby Power" whether it's a generator or "alternatives"...

A buddy of mine (fellow electrician and pellet stove owner) wanted to be covered in an outage. Since he had ready access to deep cycle batteries he bought a good sized 12V inverter and kept a few deep cycle batteries in the basement..hey piece of mind right???

I called him up one night this past June and was going to have a couple burgers off the grill with him...He had lost power when a storm blew through town. Where he lives the utility system is antiquated at best... most of the city (like my neighborhood) is fed from the old 4160 (volt) distribution system...very prone to outages because it is slowly being phased out ($$$ go towards replacement vs. maint)..

Anyway...He tells me over the phone "No big deal...I'll just plug in the inverter"...When I get there the inverter is sitting on top of the trashbags in the garbage can...SMOKED! "What happened??" I aksed to which he replied with a smirk "I hooked it up reverse polarity and it went popcorn"...

I wanted to laugh but held back...because I know that sometimes in an outage (being very frustrated is the norm) things happen. 

Whether it is a storm or a similiar event...when the lights go out life can be frustrating. Not to ake away from what you experinced in the storm...but a personal reflection:

A month before (Friday May 5th...was suppose to drive up to Bangor the next day and see the loggers expo/get to meet Eric) there was a fire downtown and all hell broke loose.  

They had to cut power to the neighborhood...my portable generator wouldn't start...and I didn't want to aggravate the neighbors by firing up the welder/genset at 11PM...so with the lights out and heavy acrid smoke blowing through the air I was out back draining and re-filling the generator with good gas... when it was all said and done "Murphys' Law Applied"...

Just as the generator fired up...the lights came back on...GRRRRRRRRRR! 

Was frustrating but...Not as frustrating as the fire ruined my night..and weekend. The hooligans of the neighborhood took it as an oportunity to create mischief... they broke a few windows and even looted the cell phone store on Main St...Nice huh???

Good thing for them they stayed away from my homestead... I had my "thump stick" (two foot piece of RHW 500kcmil copper wire) at my side. One crack upside the head...they're all done. Lights are off, fire in the neighborhood to close to home and looting has been documented... Sounds like a state of emergency to me...and in a state of Emergency...Anything goes! 

Yup...Outages make memories...some good some bad.
 To the average resident in the city here it was an opportunity to see our $1.2million dollar "Tower-1" do it's job...not the most memorable fire in our city...but to those in the neighborhood though it was, and put a dent on the weekend... at any rate things got back to normal around 4AM.


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## nshif (Aug 28, 2007)

Steve
Ive got a Generac 7.5KW elec.start gas. Ive been useing it for 3 years almost daily for the 1st year while waing for power lines to be installed. I live in a remote area of the Sierras where power outages are rather common from snow, trees falling accross lines, forest fires etc. So it gets alot of use sometimes for days at a time. It has never failed me and all Ive done to it is change the oil and filters and a tune up. If I had it to do over it would be propane so I could connect to my 250# propane tank so I wouldnt have to refill the gas in a sonw storm.


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## saichele (Aug 28, 2007)

OK, what sort of options are out there for 'temporary' gas connections?  I have black pipe to the garage, I suppose I could make a short run and punch through the wall, but I don't get a warm fuzzy feeling from the flexible stainless stuff generally used for kitchen ranges and the like.  Can you get rubber NG hose?

Thanks
Steve


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## thephotohound (Aug 28, 2007)

For what it's worth, I did my calculations and figured I needed a 5K-6K Watt portable to run the furnace (HW), well pump, fridge, some lights, etc... I searched and searched, finding 5K watt portable units used for around $300-$400. The problem was that they were all beat up; most likely used by tradesmen. As luck would have it, I was at Lowe's one day, and saw a sidewalk sale with 2 generators. One of them was a Troy-Bilt 8K Watt portable (13.5K watt surge). Original price: $1300. Today: $500. I asked what was wrong with it, the salesman told me "nothing". Not believing him, I asked if the warranty would still apply. He said it would. I bought it, got it home, and discovered none of the plugs worked. I brought it to my local Troy-Bilt repair facility, and had the main board replaced free of charge under the factory warranty. Now I have a perfectly functional 8K Watt portable unit for $500.

As for the NG/Propane/Diesel debate, propane/NG conversion kits are abundant: http://www.propane-generators.com/. Personally, I'd figure out what you need for wattage and shop around for a deal on a gas unit. Then if you're worried about fuel, get the conversion kit. Theat gives you options. Options are always good. 

Just my .02.


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## Highbeam (Aug 28, 2007)

This is a great thread. At my last house I did not want to use a "suicide-cord" (the double male ended cord) so I just ran several extension cords through the house to power things like the fridge and portable heaters. That's fine for smaller 110 volt loads that aren't too much for the gauge and length of cord. 

In my new house I had to replace the electrical panel and put down a few extra bucks for a generator panel. It has a UL listed interlock that allows a single 220 volt "generator" breaker to be turned on ONLY when the main breaker is turned off. The generator breaker will be fed by a male ended plug. This allows me to backfeed my entire house legally with the genset. It is effectively a suicide cord but done properly. There are UL kits sold to modify your electrical panel to offer this function but I like the premade version with all of the stickers saying it is OK. I only need to run the line for the generator now to make it complete. Power needs are managed by turning off breakers at the panel to prevent overloading the generator should the water heater kick on while the electric range is running. 

I've always wondered just how reliable the NG grid is. It would sure be a bugger to expect little granny to go around and relight all of her pilot lights. A NG/LPG powered engine lives a much easier life than a gas or even a diesel engine. Lower compression, gaseous fuel doesn't dilute the lube oil, very clean burning indeed, easy to start with no choke, no cold start issues, fuel quality is always good.

The thing about most of the small and very quiet generators is that they don't often offer 220 volt output. Not that you need 220 volt output very often but you do need both phases of the 110 power. Your home's electrical load is divided between the two phases and a 110 only generator could only power one phase at a time. For example, if you made a suicide cord and backfed a 110 volt wall outlet then only half of your home's circuits would work. The gentrans subpanels might get around this issue.

I especially like the idea of a small genset and a large one. I have run my 6850 with the 11HP OHV engine during long outages and it sucks fuel fast. 1/2 gallon per hour at light loads. The little hondas are very very quiet and the standard suitcase model is the EU2000i a 2000 watt generator for 900$ or so. There are propane conversions for this genset too.


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## babalu87 (Aug 28, 2007)

My friend is an electrician and he helped me wire the upstairs of our house when I finished it...... and signed off on the work 

He also wired me a generator breaker on the main panel and then tied that in to a BIG ASSED extension cord with the three prong plug so I can plug in to the generator.
Here is how it goes when the power is out

A: Get Maglite from junk drawer
B: Turn off MAIN power on the box AND all other breakers
B: Turn off MAIN power
C: Start generator
D: Plug in generator
E: Cycle on all circuits
F: Grab a beer and relax

I can run the whole house on ours but I have to be careful if the boiler cycles while the well pump is running AND the freezer needs juice. I just turn the boiler on when we need it. It is a 5000 with a 6500 surge but I try to keep it from surging. 
Our genset it a Cabelas model and has served us fine for 7 years.

I concur this is a good thread


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## keyman512us (Aug 28, 2007)

Good Reference for proper connection products:
http://www.gen-tran.com/

Load centers ready to go:
http://www.gen-tran.com/eshop/10Browse.asp?Category=GTV

Their "original" now refered to "vintage" product line that made them famous and IMHO they should stay focused on...This option is about as user friendly to install (although I'm not advocating it)...and can even be found at the box stores... :
http://www.gen-tran.com/eshop/10Browse.asp?Category=VPTS

A little tricky but worthwhile also...:
http://www.gen-tran.com/eshop/10Browse.asp?Category=MTSPC

Put in the 'vintage' or load center models and put this outside the garage door and you are all set:
http://www.gen-tran.com/eshop/10Browse.asp?Category=PIB


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## struggle (Aug 28, 2007)

HEre is what I have for a set up

Troy Built 5550 continous watt with 8550 surge watts.

I set mine up with a dummy plug in meter base. In the event of a power outage I can roll the gen out unplug the meter and install the properly wired dummy meter inplace. The dummy meter base allows no feedback connection to the grid it seperates the two. THis set up allows me to power the entire house this way. 

Does it work you bet. We had a power outage for a couple of hours once so it was go time. Out I went pulled meter and then put the dummy in place (shut off main breaker to feed in house box and shut off high draw hot water heater breaker). Started the generator up and then flipped the main breaker on and this generator powered two fridges and all the ceiling fans and anything else we turned on. It was really neat to be the only house in the neighborhood with lights on. People where driving by slowing down like how did they do that. 

Once the power came back on line I hust the main breaker off and remover said dummy meter and reinstall the normal one and back to the grid we went. 

This generator is not super quiet but it is seen as an emergency set up and noise is not an issue when it comes to having power. 

My neighbors accussed me of not being able to behave as I had lights and they did not.  Out of pocket cost for this set up was $750.

If one was concerned about noise at night you could just shut it down over night and keep fridge doors closed and then fire it back up in the morning. THis is what my parents did two years ago in florida when they where out of power for over two weeks and food always kept cold and no body complained about the generators running.

Also so I checked with a Fluke meter in several outlets throughout the house and had 125 volts at every outlet.


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## saichele (Aug 28, 2007)

Th noise issue is an interesting one.  I really don't anticipate running the big generator over night while I'm sleeping - what do I care if it's dark, and as you say, the food will stay cold in a fridge of freezer for quite a while if the door stays closed.

That said, we ran it till about 10:30 Sat night, then started around 8 on Sunday morning.  About 10 the local constabulary pulls in and asks what's going on in the garage.  I'd just been in the house eating breakfast, so I said "nothing. "

"So what's all the noise then?"

"The generator."

"Why are you runnng a generator?"

"Because the power's been out since friday afternoon.  "

"Oh.  You don't have electricity?"

"Just the generator.  Wish the power company would get their act together, it costs about $2/hr to run this thing.  But with a 3 yr old and a 10 day old infant in the house, my wife really wants to have some electricity."

"Ok.  Well as soon as the power comes back on be sure you turn the generator off."

"Will do.  have a good day officer."

Apparently one of the neighbors who did have electricity was more inclined to whine to the cops than to ask.  But I'm trying to devise a reasonable enclosure, like a little T1-11 shed lined with the foam egg cartons or something, that would make it a little less obtrusive.

Steve


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## babalu87 (Aug 28, 2007)

Steve said:
			
		

> Apparently one of the neighbors who did have electricity was more inclined to whine to the cops than to ask.  But I'm trying to devise a reasonable enclosure, like a little T1-11 shed lined with the foam egg cartons or something, that would make it a little less obtrusive.
> 
> Steve



Dick Foraneighbor?
I have one of them too.


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## saichele (Aug 28, 2007)

The funny thing is I talk to most all of them over the fence and they're all friendly and supportive (we bought a fairly neglected house and have been cleaning it up, including clear cutting a bunch of maple and poplar in what was previously the yard).  We have a fair amount of sidewalk traffic, and I can;t hardly do much of anything without someone stopping to say how much they like what we're doing with the house.  Our house happens to be the old farmhouse that sold off to become subdivisions 50 yrs ago.  So most everyone else has a modern house on 1/4 acre, I have an old house on 1.5 in town.  

The only one I don;t know is the one who throws loud parties behind the privacy fence once a month.  Oh, he also has a beagle that yodles every night about 10:00.  Maybe my power outage interfered with his hangover.  But if the lot's cut so you have 6 neighbors, 1 bad one is about par.

Steve


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## babalu87 (Aug 28, 2007)

I have TWO neighbors
Our house is on 6+ acres (we all abut cranberry bogs)
Good neighbor is on 10+ acres
Dick Foraneighbor is on 6+ acres

I'm batting .500


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## keyman512us (Aug 28, 2007)

babalu87 said:
			
		

> Steve said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think everyone has them.

Wanna make it interesting??? Put in a woodboiler(outdoors) and then deal with the fire dept.

Fire Dept "We got a complaint of nuisance smoke...Is your boiler even running right now???"

Me: "Yup it's running full bore right now can't you tell??? (as we are staring at no visable smoke from the top)" neighbor down the block stove was smoky so she called on me.

Needless to say...they wanted to use their shiny axes...on her back door.


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## JustWood (Aug 28, 2007)

keyman512us said:
			
		

> babalu87 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That must be a popular name ! I have 2 guys in my neighborhood with that same exact name !  They just love my generator ( 300HP  -6 cylinder Detroit  diesel  engine crankin'  out    220,000  Watts of power) ,runs everything at my facility including house.  Would post a pic but can't figure out how to resize.


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## Hbbyloggr (Aug 29, 2007)

It was a real find when in the pursuit of a decent generator to come upon a " removed from service " due to upgrades. A local town upgraded their town water standby generator and sold the old unit. I picked it up from the guy for             $ 700.00. Bought 100 ft of 4-wire 00 shielded cable on Ebay for $ 400.00 ( retails for 12.51 / ft ). Bought a double throw 100 amp transfer switch for cheap money . I had to sacrifice the old out house for the new generator room and now the propane fueled 30kw keeps us up and running no matter what. We also installed an UPS for the computers. Being in the firewood business it is essential that we stay opened during power outages for our customers . 

In times of no power we offer customers free pick-up. We give them the firewood but charge firewood rates for a hot cup of coffee. We have never had any complaints about our "disaster relief" option.


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## begreen (Aug 29, 2007)

We've been without power for as much as 8-9 days at a time in the past 10 years. It's a rural area with a lot of trees. Access is limited, including for gasoline or diesel. 

If the power goes out like it did last year, the main transmission lines coming off the dams were compromised. Bad news. That meant no gas pumps for days in some areas. You can't store gasoline for long periods of time, so many were caught gasless after they had used up their 1-2 day supply. The pumps in town finally came on in about 3 days, but a lot of folks were very cold until then.  

Propane (or NG) avoids this issue as long as the tank is not let to drop down to a low level. Diesel stores better than gasoline and if you already have a tank for a tractor then it might be an appropriate choice.


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## GVA (Aug 29, 2007)

You know, one would think that some entreprenuer type gas station owner would buy a portable generator and use it to run one gas pump and make some money, at least his generator would always have fuel


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## nshif (Aug 30, 2007)

We have a local gas station that has a generator to run his pumps but if you cant get there because of snow, even in a Jeep, it doesnt do you much good. Id rather rely on my 250 gal propane tank.


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## Kenny1 (Aug 30, 2007)

I really enjoyed this thread.

Lots of good advice. I have a B&S;PRO4000. Very quiet, and nice clean power (and well regulated!). Also, I like having an hour meter to keep track of when oil changes are required.  I use a few extension cords to power essential items.

As others have stated, there are a few things we considered:

How often does the power go out for long periods where you live? Are you planning for the "storm of the centuary" or just looking to ride out "typical" conditions? To handle 1 - 2 weeks requires a much larger budget than to cover a 1 - 2 day outage.

What is the load size? Do you want to run everything (including the big screen TV), or would a fridge and a couple of CF light bulbs be enough?  Keep in mind the start up current draw of motors (e.g. well pump).

How will you connect the generator to the load? This is very critical for your safety (and the safety of others). A proper transfer switch is required for powering hard wired appliances, and is very safe and convient.  Extensions cords are fine for smaller loads, but more work to hook up.

Will you have fuel for your generator?  How much?  How long can you store it for?  Where will you store it?

Whatever you do get, be sure to order some extra filters for it (if needed) in case you need to change them durning a power outage.


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## jjbaer (Aug 30, 2007)

keyman512us said:
			
		

> I know there are probably some right here on the forum that have made a "double ended cord" to get by cheap and nice and easy...but it is very dangerous to do this. All it takes is forgetting one time to turn off the main and you could in-advertantly kill the people trying to put the lights back on for you....Never use a double ended cord.



Keyman is referring to a term called "islanding" whereby you fail to disconnect your home from the grid, fire up a gen set and "backfeed" power into the grid and kill a lineman working on what he thought was a 'dead" circuit.....


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## saichele (Aug 30, 2007)

castiron said:
			
		

> keyman512us said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm not disputing it's a bad idea, I'm just wondering how that actually works - unless you have a really massive backup.  I figure my typical load is somewhere in the range of 4-5 kW, so I'll probably buy something that will surge to about 7500 to make sure I can start the freezer or whatever.  But there aren't a lot of extra watts.  If I'm 'islanding' as you call it, with the main still connected, won't I blow the breaker on the generator as I try to power the neighbor's stuff too?  

Again, it's not the right way to do it, but it seems like it wouldn;t even work with the main connected.

Steve


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## eba1225 (Aug 30, 2007)

Yes, what you want to do is isolate yourself from the grid.  I do that by pulling the main fuses in the panel, this allow me to power the whole panel and in turn the whole house (minus the A/C).  I have a 7.5 KW (10KW surge) generator.


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## BrotherBart (Aug 31, 2007)

Steve said:
			
		

> castiron said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Steve besides the fact that it has kicked the crap out of and killed a lot of lineman over the years, if any other reason is needed that would be that it is against the law in every locality in the whole country. Not code. Law.


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## Hogwildz (Aug 31, 2007)

Funny thing,
I stopped at a local police station yesterday to pick up a police report for a fire wreck I'm working on.
The chief says "this whole side of the town is out. Then a guy pulls up with a trailer and a gas fired generator on it. Pulls out a double male end line, plugs one end into generator, the other into an exterior panel box outside the wall. Goes in, opens the breaker box door, and there is a metal shield he has to kill power to the main breaker, which then allows a metal shiled plate to slide over that way, then that in turns lets the aux. power breaker to be flipped into the on position. Basically the main has to go off, before the aux. breaker can be turned on, and the metal plate shield makes sure that happens. Simple but great idea.


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## keyman512us (Aug 31, 2007)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> Funny thing,
> I stopped at a local police station yesterday to pick up a police report for a fire wreck I'm working on.
> The chief says "this whole side of the town is out. Then a guy pulls up with a trailer and a gas fired generator on it. Pulls out a double male end line, plugs one end into generator, the other into an exterior panel box outside the wall. Goes in, opens the breaker box door, and there is a metal shield he has to kill power to the main breaker, which then allows a metal shiled plate to slide over that way, then that in turns lets the aux. power breaker to be flipped into the on position. Basically the main has to go off, before the aux. breaker can be turned on, and the metal plate shield makes sure that happens. Simple but great idea.



Hog...  They way they are making the panelboards (equiped with a generator transfer) now is just how you described it...simple but big $$$. I've bought/installed a few. You could basically "build it yourself" with a little know how... but unfortunately it wouldn't be a "listed" piece of equipment if modified.

Unfortunately the manufacturers haven't made a "modification kit" yet. It's a PIA because the entire panelboard has to be changed. Given enough time...sooner or later they will.


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## eba1225 (Aug 31, 2007)

I did my hookup myself (just need to take you time and be safe). As was said before with paying a little attention to procedures it is quite simple and works like a charm.

Here is my procedure for when power goes out and it looks like I will need to power the generator:
1 - Pull mains to disconnect house from grid.
2 - Run wire from generator to house plug and connect the two.
(House plug is connected to a 50a breakered sub panel for the generator feed to the house and is connected directly to main panel power rails, as I use 240v from the generator)(Acts like a switch and circuit breaker)
3 - Power up generator, allow to stabilize (~5 mins) (Generator is in the shed 50ft from the house)
4 - Throw 50A subpanel breaker and the house is powered.

As I said before it powers the whole house except for the A/C. All it took was being without heat, water and losing a 'frig and a chest freezer full of food to make this happen.

Note: I do have a surge suppressor on every piece of electronics, as I have seen it recommended because generators tend to over-surge when something is initially turned on.



Erik


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## saichele (Aug 31, 2007)

OK, so there is no legal way to have a backup generator without having a transfer switch between the main and the meter?  Just trying to make sure I understand what I'm getting into.  

The feed from the meter to the main panel is almost completely obstructed by ductwork, and even if not, it is entirely encased inside metal conduit.  Given the shortage of construction/contracting work in this part of the world, the electrical work will cost me more than the generator (everyone has a boat payment).  Maybe I'm back to extension cords.  But it will be quieter.

Steve


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## eba1225 (Aug 31, 2007)

Steve,

Don't know about the issue of it being unlawful as many people in the area have then.  As for cost it was about $1500 including the generator.


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## saichele (Aug 31, 2007)

eba1225 said:
			
		

> Steve,
> 
> Don't know about the issue of it being unlawful as many people in the area have then.  As for cost it was about $1500 including the generator.



Right, your install I undrstand, and would all happen downstream of the main breaker.  It's basically what I did during the recent emergency - open the breaker for the garage subpanel in the basment, go out hook the genratator to the welder plug in the garage, go inside, open the main, close the garage breaker, and start powering up the circuits I'm looking for.  What I'm understanding Key and Howildz to say is that pretty much any install that relies on the homeowner opening the main breaker is illegal.  

So you'd need a switch that has two feeds - one from the srteet, one from the genrator connection, and closing either one of those is only possible by opening the other.  Both then feed to the Main breaker and panel.  I'm thinking that job could run as much as the generator in this part of the world.

Steve


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## eba1225 (Aug 31, 2007)

You are probably right on that as you would need the electric company to cut power to you house, and then get a liscensed electrical person to do the install.  That switch is called a "Break before Make".


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## Highbeam (Aug 31, 2007)

"Hog… They way they are making the panelboards (equiped with a generator transfer) now is just how you described it...simple but big $$$. I’ve bought/installed a few. "

I have equipped my home with a panel as you describe hog. It has the little metal lockoout tab riveted to the panel and the UL sticker to allow it. You do NOT use a double male ended plug with this setup. The "generator" circuit terminates outside with a male receptacle so that your hosue becomes an appliance much like an RV plug. 

The upgrade cost of going from a regular panel to a generator trannsfer panel was very small, less than 100$, and the result is a legal connection to the generator for any appliance in my house. If I wanted hot water really bad I could devote all of my smallish generator's power to the water heater circuit. You use the regular breakers to manage power. 

As illegal as a regular double male ended cord setup is, many many people still do it. It's bad, it's wrong, whatever, people do it all the time. I don't do it but every one of my neighbors backfed his house through the dryer plug.


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## keyman512us (Aug 31, 2007)

Steve said:
			
		

> OK, so there is no legal way to have a backup generator without having a transfer switch between the main and the meter?  Just trying to make sure I understand what I'm getting into.
> 
> The feed from the meter to the main panel is almost completely obstructed by ductwork, and even if not, it is entirely encased inside metal conduit.  Given the shortage of construction/contracting work in this part of the world, the electrical work will cost me more than the generator (everyone has a boat payment).  Maybe I'm back to extension cords.  But it will be quieter.
> 
> Steve



For all intents and purposes...The simplest way to answer your question would be "NO"...to have a "legal" installation you have to have the generator connected into the "premise wiring" (i.e. your houses electrical system) "By approved, listed means" Lot of legal mumbo-jumbo but that is what the code is for..."To establish basic safe and effective standards for electrical systems".

For your particular setup...What is the size of your electrical service??? Is it 60,100,200 Amps etc??? If your service is 60 or 100 amps you may be able to put in a "Double pole Double throw switch" right next to the panelboard.
Back before the whole Y2K scare HD used to sell a GE doublepole double throw switch (for something like $89.00).
It all depends on how much room there is around your panelboard and how "full" it is.

Just out of curiousity??? You mentioned it is "hard piped" from the meter socket to the panelboard??? "Do you still have fuses???"

Steve??? Are you in Massachusetts???


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## saichele (Aug 31, 2007)

Nope, it's a 200amp service, runs from the meter to the panel inside 1.5in (probably) metal conduit.  All the individual runs are just sheathed wire (no conduit except for some BX running to the old part of the house).  

I could come up with a couple empty slots in the box, but the issue is really that the action needs to happen between the meter and the main.  I feel pretty good about working on circuits I can shut off, but am obviously reluctant to either attempt to pull the meter or (full on worse) screw with a hot 220 line.  Took a hit from a well pump on the job a few years ago and my arm was twitching for a good long while.  

So the basic task list here looks like 
1) buy transfer switch of some sort
2) pull meter
3) break into conduit (or maybe run leads through existing main box across to switch) 
4) wire feed from meter to switch to panel
5) run plug for generator from switch to outside
6) replace meter

I had a pretty simple panel replacement job quoted at our last house a couple years ago - 100 amp fuse panel to a 200amp breaker, no Al wire involved, same panel location with good access to the location, pretty much as simple as it gets.  $1200 plus permit and parts (3 different IBEW guys, all within $100 of each other).  Not many non-union, licensed electricians in this part of the world (Michigan).  Ended up upgrading from an old electric dryer to a newer gas one to free up a 220 spot, then used that to run a 220 to the garage for a subpanel.  it was worth $100 to me, but not $1500.  Might have been worth 4 or 500, but those weren't options.  

So again I'm back to tryng to think outside the "box".  

Steve


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## keyman512us (Aug 31, 2007)

struggle said:
			
		

> HEre is what I have for a set up
> 
> Troy Built 5550 continous watt with 8550 surge watts.
> 
> ...



Just wanted to "point out this one" and add a comment or two.

What works for the above person... is not exactly an adviseable thing to do. I've "been out west" and "what goes" from locale to locale varies to say the least. Not doubting the abilities of anyone but a few things to keep in mind (Glad he brought it up for discussion):

Again things vary from locale to locale. Perhaps his local utility provider is a co-op, regional, or municipal district type set-up. So they might not make a big deal about "playing with the meter".

Here in "our neck of the woods" is a different story though. The Utility Company I have to deal with regularly, National Grid (Formerly know as Mass Electric)can be a royal PIA but they have their policies. They make a big deal about cutting seals, removing meters, etc. 
They "own" the meter and require a very formal notification anytime their meter is worked on in any way. They expect an electrician that finds missing or broken seals or anything that is "out of the ordinary" to notify them. They consider anytime their seals are broken that there is the potential "theft issue"... They use the term "Diversion"... Just something to keep in mind if they are thinking of "playing with the meter".

Also removing the meter may sound "simple" but it is also very very dangerous. Even for trained professionals. Certain things are done to minimize the risks associated with "pulling the meter" and from time to time...things can go wrong.

Unless you feel comfortable "playing with a bomb" i would recomend not "playing with your own meter" because you may end up with more than you bargained for.

The jaws inside do loosen up, they do break and every so often horror stories happen. Keep in mind 99.9% of the time...the wires behind that meter are for all intents and purposes "Un-Fused". If something shorts out...usually the spark show doesn't stop until there is no metal left to short out. In rare cases a fuse on the primary side of the transformer (Anywhere from 2000-16000 volts) will blow out... but it is also possible to "blow out" the transformer itself. Anyone that has seen a utility company transformer "blow out" can tell you...it's not a pretty picture.

So if you want to go so far as to start playing with the meter to hook up a generator...just keep in mind...it has risks associated with it.


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## keyman512us (Aug 31, 2007)

Steve said:
			
		

> Nope, it's a 200amp service, runs from the meter to the panel inside 1.5in (probably) metal conduit.  All the individual runs are just sheathed wire (no conduit except for some BX running to the old part of the house).
> 
> I could come up with a couple empty slots in the box, but the issue is really that the action needs to happen between the meter and the main.  I feel pretty good about working on circuits I can shut off, but am obviously reluctant to either attempt to pull the meter or (full on worse) screw with a hot 220 line.  Took a hit from a well pump on the job a few years ago and my arm was twitching for a good long while.
> 
> ...



I hear what you are saying. Given enough time...eventually manufacturers will make an approved "retro-fit kit" for the panelboards...but until then...

Well just (try to)play it safe for now. Whatever you do to hook up the generator just take the time and don't get sidetracked... when the lights go out it can be stressfull. Life takes a step or two backwards, people get cranky...the thought of losing food in the fridge/freezer and therefore losing $$$ comes into play.. but all it takes is one mis-step to really compound the situation.

"Having the lights on" is something we are all accustomed to...when they go out sometimes people don't think to clearly. Some people even "freak out"...

Ever catch yourself shaking your head in a power outage??? The lights are out..so you go searching for a flashlight,. You can't remember where you left it? Aggh I think I left it in the other room...Now if I could just find it... What do you instictively do when you walk in to that room???

...You flip the light switch. 

(Honestly)...How many people out there have done that???

You would be surprised...more people than you think!


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## Hbbyloggr (Sep 1, 2007)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> "Hog… They way they are making the panelboards (equiped with a generator transfer) now is just how you described it...simple but big $$$. I’ve bought/installed a few. "
> 
> I have equipped my home with a panel as you describe hog. It has the little metal lockoout tab riveted to the panel and the UL sticker to allow it. You do NOT use a double male ended plug with this setup. The "generator" circuit terminates outside with a male receptacle so that your hosue becomes an appliance much like an RV plug.
> 
> ...



There are two more things to consider if you're considering using this " Back feed " method.
One: If you fail to disconnect the main fuse ,the generator's power fed to the Utility Line goes into the transformer " backwards " and is stepped up to  the main utility line voltage. ( Our road is 7200KVA ). Beware.
Two: The wire size of the electric drier line becomes the transmission line to your house . Kind of small in my book. Too much of a load and the wire heats up and the possibility of fire becomes very real. You also want to make  sure you " Bond" the generator to a good ground and each panel. 
100% failsafe On-Off-On manual Transfer switches are only a couple of hundred dollars and well worth the money to limit your liability.


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## Mike Wilson (Sep 2, 2007)

I had them wire one of these in about 10 years ago...  wasn't expensive at all... the transfer switch cost 300 bucks, the electrician mounted and wired the whole thing for 100 bucks.  Works like a charm, runs the well water, heat, one air handler, furnace, and some lighting.  Perfect.

-- Mike


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## keyman512us (Sep 2, 2007)

Mike Wilson said:
			
		

> I had them wire one of these in about 10 years ago...  wasn't expensive at all... the transfer switch cost 300 bucks, the electrician mounted and wired the whole thing for 100 bucks.  Works like a charm, runs the well water, heat, one air handler, furnace, and some lighting.  Perfect.
> 
> -- Mike



Yeah...That is a ten-circuit "vintage style" GenTran switch...See Pg. 2 of this thread Post #18...third link.


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## Mike Wilson (Sep 2, 2007)

keyman512us said:
			
		

> Yeah...That is a ten-circuit "vintage style" GenTran switch...See Pg. 2 of this thread Post #18...third link.



Yeah, I saw it posted there the other day.  I think that for the money, its an overlooked gem.  Seems around here most people are pushing automatic transfer switches.

I decided on this switch because it runs what I need to keep the place from freezing up in the winter, and keeps the well working.  I can only spin up one of 3 air handlers on the hydronic hot air system, but its the central zone, and is enough to keep the house warm enough with a fan or two... plus the Jotul helps.  

-- Mike


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## Highbeam (Sep 4, 2007)

In regards to Weigle tree service's quote concerning backfeeding:

"Two: The wire size of the electric drier line becomes the transmission line to your house . Kind of small in my book. Too much of a load and the wire heats up and the possibility of fire becomes very real." 

This is false, the breaker that is sized to protect the dryer's circuit wiring doesn't care which way the alternating current is going and will protect the wire by tripping. My legal generator panel utilizes an "inlet" breaker at the panel in the same manner.


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## Hbbyloggr (Sep 7, 2007)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> In regards to Weigle tree service's quote concerning backfeeding:
> 
> "Two: The wire size of the electric drier line becomes the transmission line to your house . Kind of small in my book. Too much of a load and the wire heats up and the possibility of fire becomes very real."
> 
> This is false, the breaker that is sized to protect the dryer's circuit wiring doesn't care which way the alternating current is going and will protect the wire by tripping. My legal generator panel utilizes an "inlet" breaker at the panel in the same manner.



You are correct , in theory.
My point was wire size for the application.
Read this:

http://www.cabinet.com/apps/pbcs.dl...07/MILFORD01/70907004&SearchID=73292652716684

Inadequate wire size and applications caused a fire in one of our local schools. The circuit breakers did not did not save this one.


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## keyman512us (Sep 8, 2007)

Weigle Tree Service said:
			
		

> Highbeam said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well I can't help but chime in on this one.

While I highly recommend "NOT Doing a 'Bogart' backfeed setup to hook up a generator..." Using the 240 volt dryer line (Most often 10 Gauge wire) is more adviseable than "Just choosing any old circuit".

As far as the "wiring fire" in the school??? Kind of Ironic that it happened over the computer lab area. Unfortunatley for the most part, electrical engineers/contractors usually aren't to good at getting a point across very effectively.

A "Dime to a Doughnut bet" is the circuits were heavily loaded with outlets feeding computers. Unfortunately, computers use "Cheap junk s^itball switching type power supplies" that wreak havoc on electrical wiring systems. Amprobe readings are useless (unless true RMS) and unfortunately most buildings "aren't wired to handle computers". New installations use "Super Neautrals" (up sized vs old school downsized ones) and I'll bet the school in question wasn't exactly fit for regular loads...let alone computers.


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## gardenman (Sep 9, 2007)

I've read through the post replies to Steve's original query asking if the generator breakers would trip if connected to the street and it doesn't seem like its been answered.  It seems to me he has a valid point - aside from the legalities of the whole idea.  Its certainly not a good idea but it does seem like the generator breaker of say a 5KW generator would easily trip trying to power your house and 5 or 6 or you neighbors - never mind back feeding the transformer.  It seems it would pop the instant you power on.  We all agree on the legalities, this is a technical question.


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## BrotherBart (Sep 9, 2007)

OK. The only thing I understand about electricity is that you should not stick your finger in a light socket. But reading all of this stuff I gotta ask. If you close the main breaker on the panel, is any current going to go out of the house to smack the guys on the poles? A guy on the block did the dryer plug thing for a week last year with a 4,800 watt generator. Mine.

I don't do it but just want to know. I string extension cords from the generator and and power strips.


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## keyman512us (Sep 9, 2007)

gardenman said:
			
		

> I've read through the post replies to Steve's original query asking if the generator breakers would trip if connected to the street and it doesn't seem like its been answered.  It seems to me he has a valid point - aside from the legalities of the whole idea.  Its certainly not a good idea but it does seem like the generator breaker of say a 5KW generator would easily trip trying to power your house and 5 or 6 or you neighbors - never mind back feeding the transformer.  It seems it would pop the instant you power on.  We all agree on the legalities, this is a technical question.



Technical??? How technical do we really want to get??? Do we really want to get into a long diatribe of technical terms like "Inductive Reactance" and on and on???

"In a perfect world" in theory...yeah maybe the breaker on the generator will trip. Maybe it will 9 out of 10 times... But all it takes is the 10th..."How perfect" is the world we live in today (think of this as you read this) and then think of the last time the power went out for whatever reason. Wasn't exactly a perfect world then was it???

Have you ever tried to run a LARGE motor off your generator??? Say a compressor etc??? What happens "more often than not"???
The motor just sits there and hums...but does the breaker 'pop'???

Take the large motor loads out of your home and you would be surprised what the current draw is. The average home, the majority of the time only draws an amp or two "at rest". At 2 AM how many lights are on at your house???

So far alot of hypotheticals...if you have ever seen "brown power" (I have during a power failure...more than likely a 'neighborhood generator' is the culprit) fairly good chance someone has a 'bogart connection'....

As far as "backfeeding" a transformer??? Hell you could backfeed 2,3, or 10 of them! Keep in mind (aside from 'minimal losses' inside a transformer) a transformer is not a "load"...it's just a really big (electro)magnet.

Now I (being an electrician) should be able to quote "exact numbers"...but I (like BB) don't really care too much about the numbers, sticking your fingers in a light socket isn't good. Any shock isn't good. It only takes a threshold of 5 milliamps to be fatal....regardless of  voltage.

If your generator is "pushing the primary side" it can be lethal for those working on "supposedly dead lines"...

Electricity doesn't "follow any rules" in all reality. If you give it a path...it goes where it wants.

During a storm when all the wires out in the street "are turned into spaghetti" weird things can start happening. I've personally seen my fair shair of "weird s^it" happen when it comes to electricity. I've seen gas meters blown off the wall, holes blown through 1/8 plate steel, fires, welded breakers that have been 'hit by 13-8(13,800volts)'...ahh hell, just take my word for it.

If you want to have a "quick un-expected bowel movement" watch a main breaker hit by 13-8 try to get reset...only to find out the busbars inside the panel have been 'welded to the grounded case'...It not a pleasant experience, between the flash the smoke and the fact you aren't going home at 5PM can ruin your day.

Now imagine your a lineman working in an ice storm on a supposedly "dead line". You've been up for 36 hours dead tired freezing your a^s off and you and crew have many hours of work ahead of yourselves...people are waiting for you to "get the job DONE" and then it happens...Everything "falls into place" you let your guard down for just a second, some idiot has there generator backfeeding the primary, a ground is disconnected, a neautral is open the primary fuses are coordinated just right...ZAP!!

Maybe it's not the full 7,800 volts...maybe it's just enough to make a 'reactance charge on the line'...If your lucky it's just been a good 'wake up call'...maybe just a small 3rd degree burn or a hole in the flesh...Maybe your wife just became a widow.

Is it really worth "F^%&ing;around with someone's life????" 

The next time the weather isn't so great...the lights are going out left and right and it's "Just one of those days" where you would rather be comfy cozy sitting around the fire enjoying your favorite beverage...just remember there are men and women out there doing a "miserable job on days like this" that can't afford "mistakes"...Stop and take a minute out of your day and watch them work...then ask yourself "Would I really want to be doing that????"

Those folks...are called "Linemen".


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## keyman512us (Sep 9, 2007)

But to answer your question...it can and does happen.

The two pictures above??? Live work. Coldest night in January (2003?) The driver of the Dodge had one too many and snapped this pole feeding half the town. They had to secure what was left of the pole before the truck could be removed. 

Nights like that "Those folks pay their dues".

The next time your lights are out...they "may be taking their time" but they have to "get it right everytime".

Usually a Linmans' first mistake...is their last.


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## keyman512us (Sep 9, 2007)

The picture above (found on the web courtesy of LA DWP) shows "The violent fury when things go wrong". 

Hard to believe...but there is actually a person inside that ball of flames (and even more un-believably the person lived)!

The one thing I find rather interesting is in the three photos the lineman in the bucket aparently started out trying to "rescue" the individual....but as you can see from the photos...he quickly gave up on that and decided to "move to a safer spot".

Here's the link to the "entire story" if anyone is "interested":
http://members.tripod.com/~StormTrooper_2/index2.htm

Might have drifted a little "off topic" but it's still "food for thought"


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## Hbbyloggr (Sep 9, 2007)

keyman512us said:
			
		

> The picture above (found on the web courtesy of LA DWP) shows "The violent fury when things go wrong".
> 
> Hard to believe...but there is actually a person inside that ball of flames (and even more un-believably the person lived)!
> 
> ...



Keyman,
I don't think you drifted from the topic at all. Your previous post tells it like it is. Getting it wrong is instantaneous  , no second chances, and " sorry" doesn't take it back.
Give me a big double-throw disconnect any time. Everyone will be safer.


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## BrotherBart (Sep 9, 2007)

Nothing but the utmost admiration for lineman here. We live where the lines go through miles and miles of trees and no matter what happens they are right there getting it done. Even on a Sunday afternoon when I dropped a pine on the lines.  :red: Boggles my mind sometimes that they can manage it like they do. And you couldn't drag me up on one of those poles with a winch.

I went to the annual co-op meeting one time just to stand up and tell them how much I appreciated the lineman.

Murphy being Murphy the seven day outage in a snow storm came the next year and when they restored the area they only missed one house. Ours.  >:-(


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## Hbbyloggr (Sep 9, 2007)

I worked the lines with F.A.Bartlett Tree Expert Co as a younger man, bucket work, hand climbing and crane work. During power outages from storms and such, the " Bird dog" for the power co was with us with very definite policies for safe operating procedures. We were physically shown the  fuse disconnect on the primary section  to verify that it was " hanging ". We shut off engines to hear if small motors were running ( home generators ) and checked houses ahead to see if they were with or without power. All this was done before trees and limbs were taken off the wires. It was very serious business and has gotten a lot more serious over the years. 
None of us wanted to be a test for stray voltage. It really get my hackles up over this notion of trying to " beat the man." For those doubters, I would say that they be the first one to touch the line to test their theory. Then I would be happy to go ahead and clear the trees so that power can be restored.
 Enough said.


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## gardenman (Sep 9, 2007)

Wow – and I thought this was a friendly discussion forum – oh well.  Aside from some obvious misstatements (just a couple examples --  its 14-4 now, not 13-8 – and transformers most certainly do use power (not much) to the degree that your power company engineering department has a factor for it) – it was a question of theory.  Would I put my hand on the 14-4 while someone backfed the street? – not a chance.  Does my generator breaker trip when I plug in my compressor – yes – again, would I bet my life it would trip – no.  The endless praise for linemen is nice – it’s a job they chose to take.  I wouldn’t want it but it appeals to some.  When the power goes out I feed my necessary appliances with three extension cords – even with that, when the line crews are in the area I turn off the generator just for their piece of mind.     Take a deep breath.


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## keyman512us (Sep 9, 2007)

gardenman said:
			
		

> Wow – and I thought this was a friendly discussion forum – oh well.  Aside from some obvious misstatements (just a couple examples --  its 14-4 now, not 13-8 – and transformers most certainly do use power (not much) to the degree that your power company engineering department has a factor for it) – it was a question of theory.  Would I put my hand on the 14-4 while someone backfed the street? – not a chance.  Does my generator breaker trip when I plug in my compressor – yes – again, would I bet my life it would trip – no.  The endless praise for linemen is nice – it’s a job they chose to take.  I wouldn’t want it but it appeals to some.  When the power goes out I feed my necessary appliances with three extension cords – even with that, when the line crews are in the area I turn off the generator just for their piece of mind.     Take a deep breath.



This a "friendly discussion"...Welcome to the forum. If you think I'm pulling your leg, do some reading in the 'ash can'.

Mis-statements??? I would say "no" not quite. 14-4(14,400 volt distribution)...I think you pulled that one "out of thin air". Did you mean 4160???(old slowly being replaced distribution voltage). 13,800 (East of the Mississippi, and 12,470 volts west) is considered the "standard" distribution voltage down local streets. Not to say higher and lower voltages aren't used...but again a "standard" for discussion.

As far as "endless praise" not exactly but seeing as I work with them "on a fairly regular basis" and they are professionals at what they do... they are worthy of respect.

Take a deep breath...no need to. If you think previous comments were "directed at you"...you take a deep breath...lol

The "sharp angled responses" are directed at "future viewers" to educate them about the inherant dangers and get them to think things through.

Whether it's a question about generators...or a question of clearance dimensions on a stove pipe we keep the discussion focused that way in the hopes of answering the question....before it gets asked.


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## gardenman (Sep 10, 2007)

Well, I think I'll leave the "friendly discussions" to you folks - not my idea of education and entertainment.  

14-4, by the way, is pretty much the standard on the east coast of the US - take a look in Google for starters.  13-8 was the standard when your household voltage was 115.  Now that the wall outlet is 120 the primary feed is 14-4 - a simple math factor of 120.  So, to beat a dead horse, it was by no means pulled out of thin air and I think your knowledge base needs a little update.


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## velvetfoot (Sep 11, 2007)

My local area has 4160 delta, which is good for tree fault resistance;  I haven't had many outages despite the fact that trees are growing up into the lines.
When looking into a NG supply, you have to make sure you can get the amount of flow/pressure that is needed by the generator.
It's probably not a bad idea to turn off all the breakers, maybe except for one, anyway when your power is flickering or there is an outage, so your stuff isn't blown out by surges when the power comes back on;  practically everything has a computer in it nowadays, nevermind some expensive motors.


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## jebatty (Jan 4, 2008)

Maybe a little late on this thread, but the original questions were 6-8000 watts and gasoline-ng-diesel? I scanned all the posts and I think most of this is not duplicative. First, several talk about diesel going "sour." I have never seen any real study on this, lots of anecdotes, which to me don't mean much. My bet is diesel kept in a watertight/airtight container will last a good deal more than two years. Diesel is oil and oil stays oil. Gasoline is not oil But even gasoline with preservative should make it at least one year and probably two; NG - note comments on availability if a real emergency. And LPG/propane: what do you do (if this also runs your furnace, cook stove, etc.) when the power outage hits at low tank?

So, we bought a B&S;5500 watt, 240 volt gasoline generator; wired in a 10 circuit transfer switch (30A - 240V); have this transfer main panel circuits for the pump, refrigerator, freezer, septic lift pump, one kitchen circuit which power the microwave, one outlet circuit which powers the computer, tv, etc., and a couple of lighting circuits (all CFL's). We heat with a wood stove so nothing needed to provide heat protection. Essentially, we are at 90% or so operation in a power outage. 5500 watts is plenty to do all of this with power to spare. Note: transfer switch - we are DEAD SERIOUS ABOUT NOT BACKFEEDING THE LINE AND KILLING SOMEONE.

Gasoline: always use premium, not ethanol; use preservative; rotate at least annually. Make sure generator is run dry after any use. We keep at least 10 gallons of gasoline on hand, rotated. We only need to run the generator maybe for an hour or two every 4-6 hours. So 10 gallons will last a long time.

Generator: We run the generator at least once every two months for one hour on 1/2 load (two 1500w space heaters). Then run the generator dry. We want to be sure the generator actually will work when we need it. Also, at this time we actually may plug it into the transfer switch and run everything in the house, just like we're really ruffing it.

Noise: who really cares if there is a power outage? We have no close neighbor, but if a neighbor complained, I would willingly offer to help store his refrigerated/freezer stuff, offer to let him use our toilets, offer to provide him with drinking water. I think only an S..B would complain after that.

Cost: We bought the generator new for less than $600 (I see these now on Ebay for even less); bought the transfer switch on Ebay (about $150); bought a 40' cord to connect the generator to the transfer switch ($80 on Ebay); now pay $3.00 or more for a gallon of gas. 

Worth It?: I think the greatest benefit to having the generator is peace of mind. It's like an insurance policy. Once you have one, you probably never will need it. But if you do, glad that you ponied up.

If a REAL disaster: since wood heat and wood gassification is a big part of this forum, do your Google research on wood gassification and you will find instructions and plans to build a wood gassifier to fuel a gasoline engine. Even FEMA has info on this. That is my future project, then my generator will be forever free of the Texas Oil Shieks stripping my pockets bare.

Happy New Year!


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