# Sharpen chisel chain with a square file: it's Sharper?



## bogydave (Dec 10, 2011)

Read an article about full chisel chain sharpening with a square, triangle or hex file.
Claim is; it stays sharper longer ?

Quote from the Madsen's  article:
"We are often asked which direction the *file should cut -- going "into" or "out-of" the cutter tooth*. In practice, both are acceptable, but *most filers file "into" the tooth.* The experts at Oregon Cutting Systems agree this method cuts the cleanest edge on the cutter's chrome plating"

"I*f square-filing turns out to be too difficult to do for you*, and you don't see yourself getting a square grinder, there is another *option; file your square chain with a round file*. While i*t won't perform quite as well as a square-ground chain,* it will cut better than a poorly filed one -- and accurate round filing is much easier for most users. In addition, round files are less than half the price of square files." 

Madsen's Article :
http://www.madsens1.com/bnc_filing_cb.htm

Any one use this method?


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## oldspark (Dec 10, 2011)

I can buy that, one of the sharpest chains I ever had was done buy a shop and the teeth did not look nothing like when I did it with a round file, now I have a electric and they look like what the shop did and they are sharp espically taking in to account I have only done 3 chains so far. I used to do it with a round file and was happy with it but I have lost the skil to do it I guess.


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## smokinj (Dec 10, 2011)

Very true and hard to do. Best to start out with a square chain.


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## Jager (Dec 10, 2011)

oldspark said:
			
		

> ... now I have a electric and they look like what the shop did and they are sharp...



Not to hijack the thread, but oldspark, when you say you have an electric, do you mean a grinder?  If there's a markedly better solution than using files, I'd like to know...


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## smokinj (Dec 10, 2011)

Jager said:
			
		

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You can grind square chain for about 1400.00 bucks!


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## Jager (Dec 10, 2011)

LOL!  The files it is...


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## oldspark (Dec 10, 2011)

Jager said:
			
		

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 Jay is talking about a more expensive grinder, for the run of the mill chains I use a northern grinder and for me its way better, just could not get them right with the files but the first 3 I did with the grinder were sharp. 129 dollars or so.


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## smokinj (Dec 10, 2011)

oldspark said:
			
		

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No I am talking about square ground chain. Mine is all round ground. I cant afford the square model's. You are doing round ground as well.


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## oldspark (Dec 10, 2011)

smokinjay said:
			
		

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 I know what you are talking about (getting lost in the mix I guess) I was just telling him about mine vs the 1400 dollar one. The chains ground with my grinder are not square I know but do not look the same as done with a file.


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## smokinj (Dec 10, 2011)

oldspark said:
			
		

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Guy starts talking square filed or ground the level of the playing field is high. (to high for me) lol Even learning to hand file (Square) is a nightmare for most the cost on the files go up too.  I am going to play this one with the old KISS.  ;-)


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## LLigetfa (Dec 10, 2011)

First off, the pic you show missed the mark WRT to the apex so I have to wonder if it would perform any better than round ground.  In competition, you might want to gain the slight edge a well filed or ground square provides.

Second, ground versus filed... the quality of the job very much depends on how well dressed the stone is.

Third, you mention filing into and out-of, which also applies to ground, not just filed.  Most grinders grind half of the chain into and half of the chain out-of.  In all the years I worked in the bush, not once did I ever see anyone hand file a chain into, only out of.  Filing into will leave less of a burr but we try not to shave with our saws and so the burr is generally not an issue.

Decades ago between sawhand jobs, I did a lot of skate sharpening and so had a firm grasp of grinding, honing, and stone dressing tecniques.  When I see people buying these cheap grinders to sharpen chains, I have to wonder what sort of hack jobs they do.  After seeing the hack job many skate sharpening shops do, I have to wonder what sort of hack jobs some pro chain sharpening shops do as well.


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## JustWood (Dec 10, 2011)

If someone hasn't achieved nirvana round filing, forget square filing. It's even more difficult. A friend of mine who was a Game Of Logging "grand master" had the square filling down to a science. I ran one of his saws with the square filed chain and didn't notice any difference from my round filed. 
If you can master round filing to the point you are putting a "logger hook" in the top plate naturally without trying you have round filing mastered and no need to go square.


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## oldspark (Dec 11, 2011)

"When I see people buying these cheap grinders to sharpen chains"
 Whats your idea of cheap, I cant get the files to work for what ever reason but my "cheap" grinder seems to work well, after I cut my wood sharpened on my cheap grinder I can check the moisture of the wood with my cheap MM. Life is good in cheapsville.


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## amateur cutter (Dec 11, 2011)

Hey Lee, got a pic of the "logger hook" you described? I've not heard it called that, & wonder how my chains compare. Thanks A C


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## JustWood (Dec 11, 2011)

amateur cutter said:
			
		

> Hey Lee, got a pic of the "logger hook" you described? I've not heard it called that, & wonder how my chains compare. Thanks A C


Top plate is concave like a beaver tooth. It takes a special " duck and weave " on the file handle to achieve this !


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## amateur cutter (Dec 11, 2011)

uncontrolabLEE said:
			
		

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Got it. Thanks much! A C


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## bogydave (Dec 11, 2011)

LLigetfa said:
			
		

> First off, the pic you show missed the mark WRT to the apex so I have to wonder if it would perform any better than round ground.  In competition, you might want to gain the slight edge a well filed or ground square provides.
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Not my picture or quotes;
from the attached  article 

I'm sticking with the round chisel files. 
But some love to tinker & get the best performance from their saw, this may be fun to try,  but hard to do in the field. 
Each round a few seconds faster would just make me have to rest more often 

If I file, my chain is dull, & sharper when I'm done; same for the cheaper grinders. Sharper is good, but relative 

Hockey skates I'm guessing


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## LLigetfa (Dec 11, 2011)

oldspark said:
			
		

> "When I see people buying these cheap grinders to sharpen chains"
> Whats your idea of cheap, I cant get the files to work for what ever reason but my "cheap" grinder seems to work well, after I cut my wood sharpened on my cheap grinder I can check the moisture of the wood with my cheap MM. Life is good in cheapsville.


You being a little defensive there, cheapskate?  I suppose anything might be better than butchering your chains with a file even if I don't understand it.

I don't own a cheap grinder, nor an expensive one and I have no problem to put a good edge on my chains with my uber cheap files.  I don't need a MM, cheap or otherwise.  I can tell just by picking up a split whether it is before its time.  Compared to me, you are the big spender.


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## bogydave (Dec 11, 2011)

I'm cheaper than both of you.
I wear the  cooper out on pennies I keep them so long. LOL :lol:


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## LLigetfa (Dec 11, 2011)

uncontrolabLEE said:
			
		

> It takes a special " duck and weave " on the file handle to achieve this !


LOL

I used to watch some guys put a whole lot of "English" on the file.  They looked like they were conducting the New York Philiharmonic.  I don't think they cut any faster but they were sure proud of their filing prowess.  I just try to keep the profile looking like it did when it was new and cutting like when it was new.  I figure if there was a better profile, the smart engineers that designed the chain would probably put the best profile on it at the factory.


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## Thistle (Dec 11, 2011)

[quote author="bogydave" date="1323593184"]I'm cheaper than both of you.
I wear the  cooper out on pennies I keep them so long. LOL :lol:[/quote

I squeeze a nickel 'til the buffalo chits.  ;-P  When my jeans wear out every few months (usually the pockets are worn through because of keys & cellphone rubbing on the toolbelt and/or safety belt I'm always wearing at work) & the seat rips out from constant climbing ladders,scaffolding & stairs) -  I cut the legs off about mid thigh & use the denim for shop rags & a couple pieces to line the bottom of my chainsaw cases to soak up any dripping oil.


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## btuser (Dec 11, 2011)

I thought I was pretty bad at hand filing before I watched a self-proclaimed expert sharpen his.  It looked like ski country.  The ground got a good dusting.  

I've been looking for an electric grinder but want to know how long before I get my money back.  Is it just the convenience of having one?  What's a good price to have someone sharpen your chains?  Is it per inch vs loop?  I only ask because the last time I sent my chains to the local Stihl shop 3 16" chains cost me 45 bucks.  I don't want to tell someone how much they can charge but I can almost buy a new chain for that price.


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## oldspark (Dec 11, 2011)

LLigetfa said:
			
		

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 When I see posts like yours it ticks me off, you assume a lot of things with those kind of posts, the fact of the matter is my chains are sharper now, I had the money to buy a 350$ sharpener but did not think I was going to gain that much by the extra 200$, as far as the MM goes, burnt wood for 30 years with no other heat in the house other than the wood burner with out one so do you think I really need one? It is a toy, do you have any toys you like to play with, I guess you could figure I have a lot of toys I dont need. Defensive yes, but it was the way you said it not what you said and the butchering the chain with a file was uncalled for, see you are still doing it. :long:


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## LLigetfa (Dec 11, 2011)

oldspark said:
			
		

> Defensive yes, but it was the way you said it not what you said and the butchering the chain with a file was uncalled for, see you are still doing it. :long:


Well... I'm not going to apologize.

WRT cheap grinders, it seems a lot of folk think it is better than learning how to file a chain.  Grinders, cheap or otherwise are not idiot-proof.  WRT to my comment on butchering, one can do it just as well with a grinder, only faster with more expensive consequences.

When I said that I don't understand what's so difficult about hand filing it was not meant as an insult.  Yes, there is a learning curve but grinding also has a learning curve.  I don't buy that a cheap grinder is better than no grinder.  An expensive grinder in the wrong hands is no better either and doesn't make you an expert.

Back when I did a lot of skate sharpening, I also overhauled a lot of grinders.  There is a big difference between quality motors with precision preloaded bearings and cheap Chinese junk.  The same goes for the stone, diamond dressers, etc.

I also trained a lot of folk how to sharpen skates.  I had people sneak in the back door to ask me to sharpen their skates when they saw the owner or one of my trainees standing at the grinder.  I understood how the profile of the blade needed to be customized to the skating style, be it figure skating or hockey.  I also saw how the profile would get messed up by amateurs.  The local rink had a grinder so the hockey players or coaches could sharpen (butcher) their own for free.  Many teams had cheap portable grinders to take on the road.  I may be prejudiced against amateurs and cheap grinders but I'm not going to apologize for it.

Chains come from the factory sharp, with the correct profile for most applications and so it is a simple matter of keeping the same profile or modifying it slightly to suit.  Skates on the other hand are not profiled and not even sharpened when they come out of the box.


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## oldspark (Dec 11, 2011)

Dont know what to tell ya, my chains are sharp now and the angles are correct so my guess is I did not F it up, I worked on a kill floor for 10 yeas and sharpened knives for my job but a knife is a knife and a skate is a skate so your point is? Any thing can be done wrong but not sure why you think the grinders are all that bad, first one on my grinder was sharp and I did a old beat up one and it came out good also so YRMV. Have a good one.


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## LLigetfa (Dec 11, 2011)

oldspark said:
			
		

> I worked on a kill floor for 10 yeas and sharpened knives for my job but a knife is a knife and a skate is a skate so your point is?


My father was a butcher by trade and couldn't sharpen a knife.  I don't know what my point is except that whatever your station in life does not guarantee you will be good at it.  To your point, just cuz you're good at one thing doesn't mean you'll be good at another.  

Try as I may to teach my father how to sharpen a chain, he never could master it.  I sharpened every chain he ever had.  After I left home, he would just go buy a new chain and save the old ones for when I went to visit him.  I even bought him one of those jigs that set all the angles and he still couldn't (wouldn't) learn.  If a cheap grinder had been available back then I might have bought him one but I suspect he would still have butchered the chains.

I learned how to sharpen Swede saws very early in life.  They are nowhere near as forgiving as chainsaws and will have you veering off in a nasty curve if you butcher it.  I file/grind hand saws and circular saws too as well as chisels, drill bits, knives, etc. except for the carbide tipped saws and drill bits.


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## JustWood (Dec 11, 2011)

oldspark said:
			
		

> Dont know what to tell ya, my chains are sharp now and the angles are correct so my guess is I did not F it up, I worked on a kill floor for 10 yeas and sharpened knives for my job but a knife is a knife and a skate is a skate so your point is? Any thing can be done wrong but not sure why you think the grinders are all that bad, first one on my grinder was sharp and I did a old beat up one and it came out good also so YRMV. Have a good one.



I think Ligs "cheap" comment was more of a comparison of HF grinders ($39) VS Oregon ($400+) not a cheap shot at you. And the "hack job" comment was aimed at those who don't know the correct angles hand sharpening won't achieve much better results with a grinder. If one doesn't  know the correct profile it's not gonna work period.
I owned a top of the line Oregon years ago but we only sharpened feller buncher chains with it (sold it w/feller bunchers). My dad and I and a few fellers we employed could sharpen a chainsaw faster than you could dismount one and put it on the grinder. And do a pro job better than a grinder.
I'm gonna buy that NT  grinder in the link. I've heard some half way decent reviews on it. I'll only use it on rocked out chains.I'd be inclined to spend a little more on the Oregon but I doubt I'll use it on more than a dozen chains a year.


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