# Hearthstone Clydesdale wood insert - help please



## bluesisgreat (Dec 13, 2007)

I would like to get a wood insert, and was about to order the Clydesdale, when I came across some bad reviews, so I'm asking for your direct input. 

What drew me to the Clydesdale is the large viewing area and the availability of a screen for open-door viewing. I envision using it with the door open 1-2 hrs per day - I LOVE watching and hearing the fire. I had been looking at the Jotul Kennebunk 450 (because of the larger viewing area than the newer 350 and 550), but the screen is what tilted things towards the Clydesdale. The soapstone lining also seems like a nice feature.

I know that there will always be things that can go wrong, etc. - but some of the complaints were pretty serious, like not putting out enough heat, the window self-cleaning not working, the blower being very loud, no manufacturing support, etc. And I only found a few positive comments - but few comments in general.

Could you please help me understand more about the issues? I'm totally new at this - whatever I learned was during this last week when I read a lot of manuals.

My house is from 1959, about 1700 sq. ft on the main floor, where I'll get the stove insert. The living room is pretty large, opening into the kitchen and hallway, only the 2 bedrooms are tacked away in the back, where the heat would not get to. 

I would be so greatful if you could help me with your input!

Thanks,
silvia


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## Harley (Dec 13, 2007)

Just a gut reaction, but if you are really looking to have the stove in use with the screen in front - no matter what you get - it will probably not do the job of heating well.  I think even the 1-2 hours per day of open fire is just sending a lot of heat up the chimney.

With the door closed - I think it would do fine to heat the area, but there's some Clydesdale owners here that could give you a much better read on it than I can.


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## bluesisgreat (Dec 13, 2007)

Thanks for your quick reply. 

Actually, I would keep the door open only while I sit around and just look at it; 1-2 hrs is really wishful thinking   . Most of the time I would keep it closed. 

I'm also planning to have my regular water heating system on, so the rest of the house is heated, as well. Do I have to worry about that? I imagine that the thermostat in that part of the house would control the heating, so my gas bill will be reduced.


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## Cath (Dec 13, 2007)

bluesisgreat said:
			
		

> I would like to get a wood insert, and was about to order the Clydesdale, when I came across some bad reviews, so I'm asking for your direct input.
> ...
> I know that there will always be things that can go wrong, etc. - but some of the complaints were pretty serious, like not putting out enough heat, the window self-cleaning not working, the blower being very loud, no manufacturing support, etc. And I only found a few positive comments - but few comments in general.
> 
> Could you please help me understand more about the issues? I'm totally new at this - whatever I learned was during this last week when I read a lot of manuals.



Silvia,
Someone else asked about the Clydesdale a day or so ago.  I am posting a link to that thread below and including a "copy/paste" of my response.  It sounds like you have done your homework so the info I include may simply duplicate what you've already done.

I have to say that I seriously considered the similar, but smaller, "Morgan".  From everything I've read my overall impression of both inserts was positive.  If I could find one at the right price I might replace my Vermont Castings Winter Warm small some day.  

As far as "putting out enough heat" my best guess is that is a matter of perception.  I do know it takes longer for the room to "get up to temperature" but that once it does it is a genter heat and it lingers longer once the fire starts to die.  If you aren't used to the gentler radiant heat and want the stove to heat the room quickly then you would probably be disappointed in any soapstone stove or insert.

I think your question regarding ash is answered by at least one knowledgeable poster in the thread I am linking.  I got the impression it isn't an issue.  

That leaves the question of customer service which usually depends more upon the local dealer since they service the stove.  Although it may depend to some extent upon information they get from the manufacturer on what may be a defect requiring correction.  

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/12266/

spinner00, 
Check out the three links below which should give you a good overview of this particular insert.  The first and third links are self-explanatory.  The second is to the results of a search of the term “Clydesdale” on these forums. 
As BeGreen suggested, please post back with any specific questions you may have. 
Member Review 
https://www.hearth.com/ratings/art.php?id=1695 
Results of “Clydesdale” search 
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/search_results/36bcd86006814403143a7160d9cfbf7d/ 
Hearthroom thread:  Hearthstone Morgan Insert 
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/7368/#84500 
In particular, see Post # 10 by Rhonemas - EXCERPT:  “I have the Clydesdale, the big brother of the Morgan.  It takes a while to warm up, takes me 1 - 2 hours before I start feeling heat and it does buffer the heat well.  I find it strange watching the fire inside roaring and not feel any of it for an hour.  But, when I see just a few embers it is still throwing out a lot of heat for a couple hours, occasionally reloading it’s like “Poof” instantaneous combustion and secondary burn happening before I even shut the door.  I agree with him it stores and takes time to heat/cool if yours is anything like mine.  The first year before I knew what I was doing it took me over 2 hours before I started feeling any heat.  Takes time to learn it.” 
~Cath


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## JimWalshin845 (Dec 13, 2007)

I'd nix the insert and get a stove.  You state that you have a large living room so space should not be the problem.

May I ask why you are going with an insert versus a stove?


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## bluesisgreat (Dec 13, 2007)

Cath - THANK YOU for referencing that last post!! I'm not sure how I did my search that it did not come up. That post has more details about the Clydesdale than all my other findings together.

It also brings up another issue: that of mounting it. By attentively looking at the drawings in the manual I discovered that it can be mounted with the surround flush with the door (like the Jotul) - and thus stick out the least possible. There were two reasons why I wanted it mounted flush with the surround: one, I only have a small hearth (16" - need a hearth pad anyway, to extgend it to 18"), and second, I don't think it is particularly beautiful - it is viewing the flame that I'm after. The dealer was not sure if that was an option or not, they had never installed one like that. So, I emailed the company, and they answered that yes, indeed, that is no problem.  From the post it sounds like it may not be a good idea - I guess there was a reason they show the picture with the insert sticking out more. 

Any other thoughts on mounting the Clydesdale flush with the surround?

Jim - thanks for taking the time to aswer the post. Even though my living room is big, it is kind of full, and there is no room for a stove. The fireplace pit is just open - so it is not easy to use as a fireplace. I was going to just install a fireplace, when one of my colleagues mentioned the stove inserts. I had no idea that you can actually get inserts that have a decently large viewing area - once I realized that, I started looking at this option. I first looked at the Jotul and did a lot of research on it, almost making up my mind. Then, when I visited the dealer, I happened to notice the Morgan they had in stock - and I liked the large simple window. And the Clydesdale has it even bigger. The nice decorations on the Jotul in my mind obscure the beauty of the fire - and in the summer ... oh, well, I'll just ignore the plain-ness of the Clydesdale   . When I learned that you can actually use the Clydesdale with an open door - that just did it for me.

On that note, and getting back to the post #10 by Rhonemas mentioned by Cath - what would be the effects of using the Clydesdale with the screen/open door in the beginning, just like a fireplace, until the soapstone heats up enough for the blower to take over once you close it? I have plenty of oak wood from my property, so my viewing pleasure is definitely worth putting up with less efficiency for a bit.


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## JimWalshin845 (Dec 13, 2007)

Sounds great and great reasoning behind your choice.... sometimes aesthetics do win out along with not having a stove sticking out into a room.

Good luck and keep us up to date on your progress.


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## Rhone (Dec 13, 2007)

I have the Clydesdale, on my 3rd season.   I think I'm the grandfather, when I purchased it there was no mentioning of it on the internet until I made my first post!  My glass stays extremely clean.  Sure it gets a little dirty at the corners and a little where the air blows out, but to say that's it is really amazing.  All units glass gets a little dirty and the bigger the window the more engineering required to try to keep it clean so, I have to praise Hearthstone on how clean the glass stays.  The only unit I'm aware whose glass may not get dirty at the corners is Pacific Energy, their windows are 1/2 the size.  You won't hear the fire, the unit is near sound proof and moisture in the wood causes the crackling, hissing, and popping so if you get that during the burn your wood is too wet.  The unit has blowers which sound like an AC or medium, or if you turn it down sounds like a whisper.  You can turn them off, but I don't recommend it if you want to use it for heating.  It's more entertaining to watch with the door shut.  You'll get secondary burn, which is quit amazing to watch and can last for a couple hours depending on what wood you put in there.  

Now, who is saying it doesn't throw out a lot of heat!?  I have a 1300 sq ft house and, 4 splits of oak which is the smallest load I can put in there and burn efficiently raises my house temp 9-12F!  Recently I've been burning red maple (25% less heat than oak) and every fire raises my house temp 8F.  Personally I do not believe one unit is any more efficient than another... they're all about 70% so I don't think it matters which you get if they both have a 2.4 cu ft firebox they should both heat your house similarly.  The benefit of the soapstone is, that it will be more subtle and never need replacing (firebrick units frequently need their firebrick replaced) but other than that, per fire they should heat the house the same in the end.  My wife and I are extremely happy with it.  Been 3 years now, each night I still can't wait to come home and have a beer and start a fire and watch it... I most certainly love it's big view.  I watch it for hours thinking about life and things.  My wife will come home and  cuddle with me usually with a wine and talk to me about her day or reads a magazine/book.  I absolutely love the Clydesdale and, it's big window and the fact that I like the way it looks is all the difference to me.  Important note, it must be installed sticking out the 5" you don't want it flush.  

I do wonder though, has your house been insulated & updated?  If you haven't done much with the insulation, windows, etc. I think you'll need to light 4-5 fires a day in the Clydesdale and may wish you had a bigger firebox.  And, make sure you understand inserts & stoves heat differently you have decide which kind of person you are.  Inserts heat the floor & extremeties better than a stove but since they heat the floor, unless you can shut the room off if you come home to a house that's 65F and want to bring the 1700 sq ft floor up to 72F the room with the insert won't reach 72F until it's also brought your entire floor to 72F.  You have to think with inserts of them trying to heat the entire floor & extremeties... not just the room they're in.  A freestanding stove will take even more time with the extremeties, but it will quickly bring the room it's in to 72F.  If you're one who likes a hot room (say 75F+) you're probably better with a stove since it can heat a room fast and the rest of the floor will linger well behind.  If you're one who wants the entire floor heated evenly or spend a lot of time in other rooms of the floor you're probably better with an insert whose blowers are much bigger, and cycle all the air in your house through the insert and repeats, and excellent at heating an entire floor.  Walking into a house/room heated with a stove is totally different than walking into one with an insert.  I'm an insert person, always wanted the heat somewhere else and always tried to force my freestanding stove to heat like an insert which they are not.  Probably the most common question asked by stove owners is, "How do I get the heat to spread more to other rooms/areas of my house?" which is what inserts are best at and coincidentally I've never seen asked by insert owner cause that's exactly what inserts excel at.  But, insert owners can ask why they can't get the room with the insert to be 75F+ like their friend who has a stove... that's exactly what stoves are good at.  You're either a stove person or insert.  Spend some time thinking about which you are.


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## bluesisgreat (Dec 13, 2007)

I'm definitely an insert rather than a stove person, I have no doubt about it. I'm actually a fireplace person - but am thinking stove for the added efficiency and ease of operation/maintenance of the fire, as long as I can get my visual in. The visual is a yes/no decision point, and then comes the rest. As we speak, I'm sitting in front of my downstairs fireplace, watching the flames - perfect day to do this after being out in the constantly falling snow (about 9 inches so far).

You are right that my house is not insulated well - but that will be a much bigger job. I am planning to use the insert as supplemental heat - hoping that it will contribute somewhat, so my gas bill will be lower. I notice that when I run the fireplace on my lower floor, it raises the room temperature by 1-2 degrees - but it is absolutely wonderful to just sit in front of it.

How bad would it be to install it flush with the surround? I did not quite understand the details of your previous posting on this, only the gist of it.

Do you have a screen? Have you ever run it open? I understand that it takes maybe one hour to start feeling the heat - this is when I was thinking that it would be a perfect time to burn it with the door open. Even with dry wood, I would get the extra pleasure out of it - the direct radiating heat, plus the instant gratification to warm up immediately, like with a fireplace.


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## Rhone (Dec 13, 2007)

Sounds like the Clydesdale will do very well then!  When push comes to shove I think you'll hit about 6 weeks a 2.4 cu ft firebox will struggle heating a non-updated 1700 sq ft 1959 house in Upstate NY.  

I don't run it with door open cause it sends all the heat out the flue, like you said it might heat the room it's in 1-2F but having it shut heats my entire house 8F and, I use it mainly for heating and watching.  I can't handle watching it open, knowing I'm sending heat out the flue.  Having it open will probably burn all the wood in it within an hour, shutting it will have that same wood burn over 5-8 hours.  I think you're the first I've seen to want a screen!  Watching the secondary burn happening (which can only happen with the door shut) is unbelievably beautiful, I'm not sure after seeing it you'll ever want the door open plus, you won't be sending all the heat out the flue.  Again, with the door open the wood will burn at least 5x faster.  

The reason it needs to be pulled out 5" out of the surround is because the tubes the heat comes out of at the top are fixed.  If you have it pulled out 5", they will end in openings of the surround and all the heat will blow into the living space.  If you push it into the surround 5" so it's flush you also push the channels into the surround 5" so they'll end BEHIND the surround.  Not going to do much good there.  It's easy though to extend them out of aluminum flashing.


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## bokehman (Dec 14, 2007)

Rhonemas said:
			
		

> the insert won't reach 72F until it's also brought your entire floor to 72F.


That's not my experience. I'm in my living room with the insert at the minute, with the blowers on and the ceiling fan to distribute the heat around the house. It's 80 degrees in here and 65 in the rest of the rooms.


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## ClydesdaleBurner (Dec 14, 2007)

I have had my Clydesdale for a few weeks and I notice that the whole house warms up a few degrees in the first few hours of good burning, but the living room with the insert heats up a good 4-6 degrees in that time.  When I burn the stove all weekend the whole house gets up to high 60s from 60, which is where we leave the furnance thermostat set at.  The living room will get up to mid 70s at the peak of any burn cycle.  Now all this depends completely on the layout of your house and insulation.  My house is 1800 and was built in the mid 90s so the house is well insulated.  Also the living room has two entrance ways so I think the air can flow easily in and out of the room.

My point... the insert does heat the whole house, but the room with the insert can still get warm, just no quite as warm as with a stove, which can put the room into the 80s.


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## bluesisgreat (Dec 14, 2007)

thanks, everyone

Rhonemas - what do you mean by saying that the floor heats up? You mean the air just above it, as it blows out of the stove? I have hardwood and area rugs - do I need to worry about that?

Bokehman - I'm sure that the ceiling fan makes a HUGE difference - it should have much more power to move the air around than the blower in the insert.

I wish we could get those Hergom inserts over here - they look SO great!! And all have a very large viewing area, almost like a fireplace. 

Interestingly enough, it looks like the only foreign stove they carry is the Clydesdale. No Jotul! It is also interesting that the information on the Clydesdale is much easier/faster to understand than from the manual, and I could finally see a picture of how it would look installed deeper into the fireplace. Had to go to Spain to find better information - what's wrong with that picture?  

Here is the link, for reference:
http://hergom.com/pr_in_in_clydesda.../en/gamas/estufas/productos/ficha/Clydesdale/

and here is Bokehman's insert:
http://hergom.com/pr_in_in_c4.php/0...n/coleccion/Serie-Classic/productos/ficha/C4/

Just as a curiosity - I noticed that in all the pictures of the Spanish stoves the hearth is just a thin sheet, if any. Is there no code that require a certain R-value, or do they have more advanced materials?

ClydesdaleBurner - did you ever try to use the stove in the beginning with the door open? Do you get the same effect as with a fireplace? How big is your living room?


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## JimWalshin845 (Dec 14, 2007)

bokehman said:
			
		

> Rhonemas said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Get realistic Bokehman,

You gotta move that heat and ceiling fans move it way too slow. Get a high volume low velocity like this one.. 3 speed and 27". 





We tried all different fans and have ceiling fans too. When it gets too warm in the living room we crank the fan to medium and push the heat to the adjoining room.

You don't want to put the fan on HIGH unless you want gail force winds.

NO INSERT/STOVE WILL MOVE VOLUMES unless it is hooked up to a central system.


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## JimWalshin845 (Dec 14, 2007)

Rhonemas said:
			
		

> I have the Clydesdale, on my 3rd season.   {snip/}.



Great post about a insert/stove.  You took a lot of time to describe your experience with something you are very happy with.

Koodoos to you young man! :cheese: 

You should post this in the section about rating your stove.... good read too! :coolcheese: 

Safe journeys and warm burns.


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## bokehman (Dec 14, 2007)

bluesisgreat said:
			
		

> Rhonemas - what do you mean by saying that the floor heats up? You mean the air just above it, as it blows out of the stove?


No, he means if the stove is on the ground floor it heats all the rooms on that level rather than just the room in which it is located.



			
				bluesisgreat said:
			
		

> Bokehman - I'm sure that the ceiling fan makes a HUGE difference - it should have much more power to move the air around than the blower in the insert.


It makes lots of difference to the other rooms. The blower on the insert gets the heat from the insert into the room; the ceiling fan distributes the warm air around the house. The ceiling fan is running in reverse so there is not a big downdraught (1.35 metre fan).



			
				bluesisgreat said:
			
		

> Just as a curiosity - I noticed that in all the pictures of the Spanish stoves the hearth is just a thin sheet, if any. Is there no code that require a certain R-value, or do they have more advanced materials?


I don't know to about the regs (we're not a nanny state here yet) but the bottom of the insert runs pretty cool anyway; You wouldn't burn yourself if you touched it. Anyway things are different here because homes are not built from combustible materials. Most floors are either stone or tiled, certainly no carpets (which are a terrible health hazard anyway).


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## ClydesdaleBurner (Dec 14, 2007)

Bluesisgreat - I leave my door open about an inch when I start the fire to promote a strong draft, however I have noticed if I open the door fully when starting the fire it does act just like a fireplace.  You don't have a strong draft, but that is how our fireplace used to be.  However I don't know if the blower would turn on with the door open as so much room temperature air would be filling the firebox.

A bit off subject, but I've noticed when the fire is reduced to really hot coals, if you open the door the heat comes out about 10 times hotter than with the door closed, now I'm sure this effects the soapstone and probably cools the stove down a lot, but it does kick out some direct radiant heat that way too...


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## Rhone (Dec 14, 2007)

Bokehman (love that name) did a great job explaining what I meant with floor I did mean level of the house, the actual floor in front of it stays cool as Bokehman says even during the hottest of burns I can easily touch it, only just be warm to the touch.  

I think Bokehman things are different over there (do you have the Clydesdale that's soapstone?) your houses are usually earth material ours are made of wood with insulation.  I can't say why you're getting that much difference unless your house is heavily if not all earth, or as can be typical over there very old.  There was a person who purchased an insert for a 100% brick uninsuated house here, the insert tried to heat his entire level and he had so much heat loss it was not possible for him to have a warm room anywhere even the room with the insert.  He then purchased a wood stove so at least he could have at least one room that's warm.  They do very well with wood houses.  I don't have experience with how they perform in the the house types of Europe (which can often be earth).  My house, the room with the insert hangs around 68F, rooms adjacent around 73F and, rooms at the other end of our house 66-68F.  The room with my insert is lower temperature than those next to it because it's a sunken den.  Cold air is more dense so settles in the lowest portion of ones house and, since my den with the insert is 3' lower than the rest that's where it goes.  It's then sucked up and heated through my insert and heat wants to flow to the coldest parts of ones house so it flows to adjacent rooms and the other side of my house.  That keeps the room with my insert cooler than those around it, and I think as much as cathedral ceilings interfere with heat flow, sunken dens improve upon it.  But, you're right layout plays a factor.


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## bokehman (Dec 14, 2007)

Rhonemas said:
			
		

> I think Bokehman things are different over there (do you have the Clydesdale that's soapstone?)


I don't have the Clydesdale, I have an Hergóm C4. I've added it to my signature now. 





			
				Rhonemas said:
			
		

> your houses are usually earth material ours are made of wood with insulation.


About 25 years old, tiled concrete floor, 9 inch hollow concrete block external walls, sealed insulated apex roof. At the moment I light the fire once a day around 7pm and burn about 10/12 kilos. Next morning the room with the insert is still around 20C/72F degrees (outside temp about 4C/39F). Temp fulls throughout the day until it reaches the outside temp which by 2pm is up to 16C/61F in December on a sunny day (315 sunny days per year here).





			
				Rhonemas said:
			
		

> the room with the insert hangs around 68F


That's kind of deceiving though because that's the air temperature and doesn't take into account the radiant heat which comes through the glass and really makes you feel warm.

Edit: I just found turning on the ceiling fan raised the temperature in the room from 23C/73F to 28C/82F in about two minutes so there must be a huge bank of warm air up by the ceiling.


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## Cath (Dec 17, 2007)

bluesisgreat said:
			
		

> Cath - THANK YOU for referencing that last post!! I'm not sure how I did my search that it did not come up. That post has more details about the Clydesdale than all my other findings together. ...



Silvia,
You're welcome, glad to help.

I see that Rhonemas and some others have given you a lot of info.  Rhonemas was instrumental in helping me come to understand that I would be better off with a fireplace insert than a free standing stove in our uninsulated basement.  It's my great good fortune that after years of thinking about this a fellow member here referred me to a Craig's Listing for a newer used Winter Warm insert (small) for about 1/3rd of the retail cost, otherwise my husband and I would still be debating this and I would be pining away for a Morgan insert that I couldn't easily afford and certainly couldn't have talked my husband into.

I took quick look at the Spanish insert (the name escapes me at the moment).  And I can see why you would favor it over the Clydesdale.  It's slightly more decorative and since it is more "flush" with the fireplace, the look is less obtrusive.  However, I would think that all other things being equal, the insert that projects into the room is going to put more heat into it.  

Initially I didn't like the look of the Morgan and the Clydesdale, this is what I had to say about them in an earlier post.  

*To Soapstone or not to soapstone, that is the question – Hearthroom posted by qwerty on 9/18/07
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/9194/#106609

"... The Hearthstone inserts do have blowers on the side but according to one senior member, Rhonemas, to realize the benefit of these blowers you shouldn’t install the stove flush but rather have it sitting about 5 inches out, which encroaches on the room a little and arguably creates an aesthetics problem.  

Which brings me to your observation about the appearance of the Clydesdale and the Morgan.  When I first started thinking about inserts several years ago this wasn’t the look that I favored either.  However, I’ve come to appreciate the way that form follows function in these particular units.  It is an understated modern look as opposed to a fussier decorative look.  That’s not to say that you can’t find something in the middle but arguably Clydesdale’s and Morgan’s are simply show cases for the main attraction, the fire itself.  Especially in the Clydesdale; if memory serves correctly this has one of the biggest viewing windows for an insert. 

Another way of looking at it is that Hearthstone seems to approach insert styling the way high end manufacturers design kitchen appliances.  That is to say that they are sleek and functional but don’t call undo attention to themselves. 

Of course, personal preference, and possibly the overall style of the room, are pretty important when considering aesthetics.  ... "*

I will be keeping my eyes open for a used Morgan with the intention of not installing it flush and extending the hearth as necessary.  With the cost of fuel I am more concerned about fuel efficiency than I am aesthetics.  Which reminds me of your question about leaving the door open.  I would defer to Rhonemas on the effect this has on efficiency.  Having said that, perhaps you would want to leave it open on special occasions.  However, making a habit of it could get expensive.

One more thing, due to the nature of soapstone you won't get enough heat to actually cook anything, nor is there enough surface area to, but if you do project the Clydesdale 5" into the room that should create enough room to keep a cup of coffee warm and possibly enough to keep a small pot of water there to put some moisture back in the air.  Just a small perk (coffee pun intended).
~Cath


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## Turner-n-Burner (Dec 18, 2007)

I've been away from the forum a bit lately, but Silvia contacted me offline about my experiences with the Clydesdale insert.  Once I started typing, I just didn't stop.  I'm going to paste it in here so it turns up on someone else's search.

The short version is that I LOVE this insert.  I burn 24/7 and love every minute of it.  I've even got my girlfriend trained to feed it now, and we sit in front of it every night to relax before bed.  I use it to offset the cost of natural gas, and it does that VERY well, but even if it cost me money, I think I'd still light a fire every night!

My experience has some similarities and some differences from those above and I'll try and hit the high points here.


-installation - A couple of forum members (big thanks to Elk and GVA) helped me with most of the install, and it went pretty easily.  Fabbing a blockoff plate wasn't exactly fun, but mostly due to the shape of my firebox and my back problems.  Positioning the insert in your firebox is VERY important.  You can set it back for the "flush" look, but if you do, you'd have to extend the blower channels if you want to recover any of that heat.  Also, the front four inches or so of the door surround really heat up a lot and throw a significant amount of heat into the room.  I think it would be a mistake to forgo that.


-heatup - Here's probably the biggest difference I've found from what Rhone has reported.  My insert heats up quite quickly.  Now since I burn 24/7, I almost never do a "cold" start.  Even my ash clean outs and relights are glowing coal and hot soapstone affairs.

    That said, it's typically only about 30-40 minutes from reload to serious heat output, and not very long after that that the living room is comfortable again.  Maybe it's my insert, maybe it's my technique.  Not sure

-technique - After one full year, here's what I've settled on as my SOP.  When the stove is down to coals, (or about 30-40 minutes before I need to sleep or leave the house) I'll reload.
    I've found that primary air inlet is the key to the whole affair, so turn that all the way up, turn off the blowers and then I'll rake the coals into a mound at the center of the stove.  If they're not glowing much, I'll leave the door cracked for a minute or two while I study the woodbox and start picking splits.  
    Once the coals are glowing again, I'll split the pile down the middle and spread them left and right, leaving a 2-3" wide furrow down the middle from front to back.  The idea is to let air from the inlet hit the back of the firebox by traveling under all the splits between the door and the rear wall.  If I do this - quick relights.  If I don't... agonizing smoldery boredom.

    Then I pile on the wood.  If I'm home late from work and want to heat up quick, but reload again later before bedtime, I'll chose smaller pieces of wood.  All those funny shaped pieces you had to cut off the end of the logs so the splits would be the right length work great.  Workshop scraps too.  Just tumble them in leaving that central air channel intact, and they will catch very quickly and burn fast and hot.  The more air spaces, the faster the flames can spread.
    The recipe for longer burns is somewhat different.  Big, long splits work best.  Put the thickest one the furthest back, and pile the rest in packing them as tightly as possible.  The key is a) to make sure the first layer "bridges" the furrow in the coals and b) you can still close the door!  I also took the liberty of adding two small granite stones inside the firebox on either side of the air inlet.  I set the forwardmost split across these and on top of the air inlet.
    I'll leave the door open about an inch to increase airflow until the splits catch and to let the flame spread a bit.  If there are a lot of coals, they'll catch before I'm done loading.  If not, it may take a few minutes.  If there are very few...  there is always fatwood!

    Obviously, for safety, I don't leave the door open very long, nor open unattended.  Burning wood shifts and changes shape and It wouldn't do to have piece tumble out of the stove!

    I burn wide open until the "warming shelf" reads 250 degrees or so by my little infrared thermometer.  At that point I'll damper down half way.  The secondary burn will kick in right away, and the stove temps will really start to climb.  I've learned NOT to turn on the blowers or damper down any more than halfway til 300, though at that point I'll usually damper down all the way for even heat and the longest burn.  If you do damper down all the way before the secondary is really established (magic 300 number), the blowers will pull heat faster than the stove is making it, and you'll lose your secondary burn.  You really will get more heat out of the stove, and faster by waiting.

Sustaining burn - honestly, this sucker burns a long time, and I'm not often in front of during it's whole routine.  I mostly concern myself with getting it lit and up to temperature, then making sure it doesn't overheat.  With a full load, I think this stove could get away from itself pretty easily if it wasn't monitored.  The blowers provide a big safety margin though, they really pull a lot of heat off of the stove.  I'm not sure it's possible to overfire this insert when the blowers are running.

    In practice, I load the stove first thing in the morning, usually damper it down after coffee and a shower, then double check in and turn on the blowers before leaving for work.  9-10 hours later I get back.  House is sometimes bit chilly, but still over 60 and the furnace isn't working.  I reload and go about my evening.  I reload again before bed...  usually three loads a day does it.  If it's particularly cold, or I'm sitting around a lot, working form home I might do another small load in the early afternoon 


end part 1.


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## Turner-n-Burner (Dec 18, 2007)

Part 2:


-glass - I could vote either way on the glass. Sometimes it stays clean, most times not.   This is I think more due to how I load the stove and the wood than the stove itself.  I pack the stove tight, and wood is often very near the glass or sometimes actually touching.  This both blocks the airwash, and deposits smoke on the glass before it rise to the burn tubes and ignite.  So dirty glass happens.  My wood is pretty dry, but a hissing, foamy split does make it into the pile fairly often.  That doesn't help the glass any.  I have a reserve stash of two-season dry wood, and when I burn that, and don't stack up to the glass, the dark spots on the glass will burn off except for a small amount in the two bottom corners.  Considering the size of the glass, I think that is very impressive.  If it bothers you,  the glass does clean up easily.  I've tried a couple of types of cleaner, but honestly,  good hot fire followed by a scrub with steel wool works just fine.  (door is some sort of very hard crystal - not glass, so steel wool won't scratch)

-blowers - love them and hate them.  They are a bit of a problem child.  I'm on my second set, as the first ones rattled and I couldn't make them stop.  This set will rattle at the slightest provocation, but so far I can usually coax them to stop.  
   They are pretty loud when on full blast.  At ~3/4, they're pretty tolerable.  They really do move a large volume of air though.  One thing to be aware of, is that due to their location under the ash lip, and how much air they move, they're pretty effective at distribuiting ash throughout the room should you fail to clean up a spill.  I keep a vacuum handy near the stove for just this reason.  (cool ash - NOT coals!)

Screen - I don't have this, but I'm occasionally curious.  With the door closed the fire doesn't radiate nearly as much heat as it does with the door open.  It also doesn't let much of the fire sound out.   With the blowers on, it really sounds more like an air conditioner than anything else.   Really not much for ambiance .  I do think that the secondary burn is beautiful to watch though, so you may not miss the screen as much as you think.  
    If you do get it, be sure and let us all know what you think of it.  My biggest concern would be how effectively does it keep logs and coals inside the stove?  And where do you put it when you're not using it?

Ash removal - one word - ashtrap.  I just bought one used that had passed through the hands of a few forum members (thanks matt).  It's too big for a lot of stoves out there - which is how it came to be in my possesion, but it works pretty well in the Clydesdale.  No point in trying to remove ALL the ash.  The stove burns better with a good ash layer, so just get enough of it out of the way to make room for more wood!

Other tools - a shovel for getting the chunks that spill onto the ashlip, a good coal rake, and a set of fireplace gloves are all mandatory.  Long matches and fatwood are nice luxuries too.  Forget the poker, log tool, broom combos unless you like the looks - you won't actually use them.

While writing this and doing a few other things ( like working )  I kept some notes of this mornings burn.



8:00 stove check, lots of coals, room temp 65 - need coffee more than fire.
8:30 rake coals into pile, damper open full,  room temp 65 9:00 conf call.
10:30 call over.
10:34 decide to load (stove top 151 degrees, room temp 64).  Few coals left, mostly ashed over.
10:36 done reloading
10:46 flame visible
10:52 close door
11:06 stretch break - splits~60% engulfed (stove top 167 degrees, room temp 64)
11:13 full ignition, damper down 1/2 secondary burn develops (stove top 240, room temp 66)
11:17 telltale heating up ticking sounds coming from stove.
11:20 stovetop at 342, room at 67, blowers on 3/4. Normally I would damper down all the way here, but out of curiousity, I'm going to wait.
11.27 stovetop at 390, room at 69.
11:29 conference call 
11:41 the hell with the call, stove at 446, room at 75, going to damper down now!
12:02 stove holding at 450, room at 74 

I'd say this is pretty true to form for the stove.  In an hour and five minutes, the stove is not only throwing heat, but has already made my living room very toasty.  If I hadn't waited so long to reload, or if I had even bothered to strike a match when I did reload, I could easily shave 10-20 minutes off the reheat time. 


For a general frame of reference, I'm in a 1964 multilevel. Poor insulation, good windows (I'm getting there)  Total sq ftage is ~1700 I think.  The lower level isn't really heated by the woodstove, though it's ceiling is about level with the top of the stove surround, and there is an open stairway between the rooms.  
    The main living floor is mostly open concept and consists of the living room, kitchen and dining roomis roughly 400 sq ft, and that is where the stove is.  
    Up a half level on an open stairwell are two bedrooms and a bathroom.  I keep those bedroom doors closed most of the time (no kids) but the stove will heat those rooms if I wanted to feed it more often.  The bathroom is heated comfortably by the stove, but the floor is a bit chilly!  

    Up another half level is the master bedroom.  The stove keeps that room comfortable most of the time too.  Really all depends on how much I feed it.  

    The design of this house is such that air moves pretty well.  With the stove blowers on, I can sit in the central stairs and feel cold air moving down past my legs and warm air rising past my face.  


Hope that helps!
-Dan


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## Turner-n-Burner (Dec 18, 2007)

This just popped into my head as I proofread part 2.  

The other thing to be aware of on the blowers is that they creat a little vortex in front of the glass.  air going in at high speed at the bottom of the stove, and exiting at the top....  that means if you open the door while they're on, they can suck smoke out of the firebox...  I nearly forgot this because I'm already in the habit of turning them off when I reload.  (they'll dry out your eyeballs anyway).

It would be interesting to see how they interact with the screen.  My guess is that you can't use both at the same time.  I'd rather listen to the crackle of the flames anyway, and it's probably a moot point too.  With the door open, the secondary burn won't light off, and the stove surfaces won't get hot enough to really get much heat out of the blowers anyway.


-Dan


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## ClydesdaleBurner (Dec 18, 2007)

Dan,

Great info for us Clydesdale burners.  I love reading about how people run their stoves. I'm still very new to mine and I'm trying to learn from others as much as possible.  I am going to try the coals with a part down the middle.  That sounds like a great idea to promote air flow to the back of the firebox.  Also I liked you idea of adding the stones on either side of the air inlet.  I use that inlet all the time to prop wood up on to allow for air flow under the wood.  

OK I have 3 questions for you.

1.  What is the hottest temp you've ever had the stove top up to?  You just mentioned 450, which is pretty good.  I've had mine up to 440, but I still haven't really filled the firebox up all the way yet.  I contacted Hearthstone asking at what temp was considered an overfire and they didn't give me a straight answer.  What are you thoughts?

2.  I asssume you burn mostly east to west and not north to south, due to the lack of depth in the firebox... or have you experimented with burning both ways? Any results?

3.  You mentioned dampering down all the way at night and when you go to work.  Does dampering down all the way kill the secondary sometimes or produce smaller flames?  I have found that it does that and then I wonder am I better running it 1/4 open with more flame and a bit of secondary burn or damper closed with less flame and less secondary.  (This would be towards the middle/end of the burn cycle)  When that firebox is cranking I can damper down all the way and still have a great secondary.

Thanks!


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## Turner-n-Burner (Dec 18, 2007)

Midway into my first burning season, the stove hit 520.  I hadn't yet learned how quickly the secondary burn could bring the stove temperatures up, and I didn't have the blowers running.  Low 500's has happened at least two more times that I know of.   I think that is well within the range of intended operation - but that's really just a guess based on a) how easily the stove can get there, and b) that it's really not that different than any other woodstove, and they're generally considered to be just getting going at 500 or so.

When I get worried, I remind myself that this stove was sold with the blowers as an option, not mandatory - so I have to think that the designers intended it to be burned full, hot, and without the blowers cooling it off.  

I would guess that "overfire" is no different than for any other stove - probably closer to 700 or so, but that the slight air gap between the actual firebox and the warming shelf means that there is a delay in when that temperature would be apparent.  For that reason, I aim to keep the stove under 550 - I feel like that should be plenty of safety margin.


Yeah, I burn mostly east-west, but I've experimented with some short spits, and funny shaped offcuts.  I don't think it matters too much heat wise, but you probably get a longer burn going east west.  The glass stays cleaner too, as the messy deposits aren't coming out of the end of the spits just millimeters away from the glass.

Dampering...  Every stove is probably a little different, but yeah, late in the burn, the secondary flames shrink and then go away.  I've always assumed that there was just less wood left in the box, and less smoke left in the wood!  When wood becomes coals...   I really don't know, but at some point you have to expect that the secondaries will go away or at least not be visible.  ( I suppose this would be different in a catalitic stove).   In my stove, I have to damper down all the way or I get more heat than I need, and too short a burn early on.  Later in the burn, I'm usually asleep or at work!

I find that what I consider the coaling stage is usually enough to maintain the houses temperture late in the burn after the early burn made things nice and warm.  If you need more heat, by all means, open the damper some.  Usually though I'm trying to space my reloads for optimal wood usage, and lower coal accumulation.  Of course, if I'm sitting in the living room and I'm cold, I'll open the damper or add fuel.

-Dan


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## ClydesdaleBurner (Dec 18, 2007)

Thanks for answering my questions.  I'm just now learning that the art of getting a "long burn" is having a longer period of coals going.  When I first started burning I would reload just after the flames went out.  Now I've learned I can hold off on that reload and get 1-2 hrs out of the coaling stage (if there is enough coals) and that makes less wasting of wood.  Of course if its cold... then I'll fire it up right away.

Great discussions today for us Clydesdale burners.  All very helpful.


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## bluesisgreat (Dec 19, 2007)

It looks like I've been away for a while - the truth is that I just did not notice that I needed to click 'next' at the bottom of the page - so I did not see any of the postings past the first page. I also no longer received notices in my email that someone posted a reply - I'm wondering why. 

Thank you everyone - fabulous information. Of course, thanks a lot to Dan with whom I've been emailing offline - and because I knew he was posting his notes on the forum, but could not find them, I looked more attentively. You can tell that I don't participate in too many forums .

My mind is set now. I'll be getting the Clydesdale with the screen option. To make up for the esthetics, I'll be getting the blue-black enamel finish, which is a little less industrial than the painted black, more resistant to bumps, and easier to maintain/clean. I'm still thinking whether to mount it flush or the regular way. BTW - the blowers now come standard on both the Morgan and the Clydesdale. I'll keep you all posted on how I like it, and I make sure I'll post a picture, as well. 

The thing I'm dealing with now is finding the right tile to match for the hearth extension and the surround. The requirement for the hearth is 18" from the glass - so if I mount it how everyone recommends, and get the maximum efficiency out of it, I need a 23" hearth. Mine is only 16", so I need an extension either way. So, while I'm looking at tiles, I'll still be thinking about which option to use for mounting.

For the record, I'd like to mention that the Clydesdale is unique in the fact that it requires the least clearance to the mantle: only 24" above the stove, which makes the total distance from the top of the hearth to the bottom of the mantle only 46.5". This is all without any kind of horribly-looking heat shield. I told Hearthstone that they should do a better job at marketing that, it is definitely a differentiator.

The peculiarity is that the Morgan, its smaller brother, needs significantly higher clearance (34"), which does not make too much sense. I had looked at Jotul, too, and there the bigger the insert, the higher the distance to the mantle is required - and all required clearances about the same as the Morgan. Only the Clydesdale was lower - so I was quite worried that it may have been a typo in the manual. My mantle is only about 50" from the floor, so it could've been a problem. 

But I double checked these specs with Hearthstone, and they said that this is indeed the case. Any thoughts on that? of the stove makes it better insulating, so I’m still a bit nervous. The Clydesdale is not just a scale-up of the Morgan, but quite different in design (less deep, but wider and taller), so in principle it could have different specs. I called the company to double check - and they stand by their numbers, they said that all those numbers came from independent outside testing. However, I was not able to find out an explanation about what in the design makes that possible. Any thoughts on this?


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## ClydesdaleBurner (Jan 7, 2008)

Bluesisgreat - Rekindling this thread to see if we can get an update from you.  Did you end up getting a Clydesdale?  Maybe you haven't had it installed yet... However when you do I was hoping you could post a picture or two of the Clydesdale with the blue black enamel finish... I almost got that one, but the shop had the mattle black in stock so I just settled for that.


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## bluesisgreat (Jan 8, 2008)

Thanks, ClydesdaleBurner!

I'm still looking at tiles or other stone to do the hearth and the surround of the fireplace. Since my fireplace is 70" wide, which is not a standard width, it makes more sense to have a mason build the hearth rather than ordering it custom. So, I'm looking into tiles or other stone for doing the surround and the hearth.

I've gotten recommendations for a couple of masons, but none showed up to see the job site yet. My sample tiles did not show up yet - but the sample of the blue-black ename did - so I'm ahead.

I'll definitely post a picture when it will all done.

Meanwhile, I've been making a fire every night downstairs, where I have a regular fireplace. One funny thing is happening: whenever I have the fire going for a long time - which happened a couple of times during the holidays, something happens with the boiler responsible for the hot water heating - somehow the ouput gases, or gases from the fireplace chimney get drawn back downstairs, my CO detector shows over 160 ppm, and the safety switch shuts off the boiler. The first time it happened, I found myself without heat when I went upstairs. Now I learned that there is a tiny reset button in the back, and I can turn everything back on. The boiler chimney is right next to the downstairs fireplace chimney - I think there is some interference.

Any thoughts?


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## bokehman (Jan 8, 2008)

160 PPM is an extremely dangerous level of CO (life threatening to children and feotuses). Everyone should leave the property immediately and not re-enter it until both fires are extinguished and the property thoroughly vented. Neither of the fires should be used again until the problem has been rectified by a profesional. 

What's happening is that boiler and the fireplace both draw combustion air from inside the house. If there is not enough air coming in to maintain both fires (or even one) the two will compete for what air there is. The fire with better draft will win and the chimney of the other fire will stall or flow in reverse. The chimney with the reduced flow (maybe both) will start cooling down and the anti-draft situation will get progressively worse, setting up an accumulative syndrome making the concentration even higher with every passing second.


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## bluesisgreat (Jan 9, 2008)

Thanks, Bokeman - that makes a lot of sense.

As far as my particular situation - the safety switch on the boiler automatically shut it down, so the CO levels came down within a couple of minutes. When I was done with the fireplace, and it was all put out, I reset the boiler, so the heat in the rest of the house came back on. 

I guess my house is better in sulated than I thought


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## Gooserider (Jan 11, 2008)

Sounds like Bokeman has it nailed on what the problem is and why.  I would STRONGLY reccomend looking at adding a source of outside air to one or both units (these are often refered to as OAKs or Outside Air Kits)  This is essentially a duct that goes from the outside directly to the appliance's combustion air intake.  It supplies the needed combustion air instead of drawing it from the room, and will often both increase your efficiency, and end that battle for combustion air.  In some places they are required by code, especially in new construction.  Some folks even like them in older "leaky" houses as they reduce the infiltration of cold makeup air through the cracks so you get fewer drafts.

Gooserider


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## bluesisgreat (Jan 12, 2008)

What a great idea! Thank you very much, I'll look into it.

I assume that this should be added to my boiler - because it would not apply to the fireplace, right? That's already taking whatever it can from the outside. 

Eventually, in a year or two, I'll probably get a wood insert in this downstairs fireplace - especially since I expect that I'll really enjoy my Clydesdale upstairs.

For now, it is really frustrating that these masons around here are busy, and I still haven't gotten one to come take a look at the place. It also took forever for the store to send me their insurance information, which I need for the permit. But hopefully I'll have my Clydesdale installed within the next month.


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## Cath (Jan 12, 2008)

blueisgreat,
It looks like you're making good progress.  Would you consider posting pictures when you're done?  It may be interesting to see what it looks like now.
~Cath


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## Gooserider (Jan 12, 2008)

bluesisgreat said:
			
		

> What a great idea! Thank you very much, I'll look into it.
> 
> *I assume that this should be added to my boiler - because it would not apply to the fireplace, right? That's already taking whatever it can from the outside. *
> 
> ...



Well I didn't see anything in your earlier descriptions that said you had outside air supplied to either the Fireplace or the boiler - it would seem to me like BOTH could benefit, but I'd probably try to do the boiler first since that's a fixed location for the intake, and it would be easy to hook a duct up to - talk to your local heating and air guys, I'd expect there is a kit designed just for this.  

One other "dumb question" - I assume that the boiler and fireplace are using seperate flues?  They ought to be, as it is a definite and MAJOR code violation for appliances to share a flue with a couple of minor exceptions, none of which would include a fireplace and an oil burner....

Gooserider


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## bluesisgreat (Jan 13, 2008)

Cath - I'll definitely post pictures. It will be beautiful - that I know 

Gooserider - no, there is no fresh air intake for either the fireplace or the boiler (that I know of). I mis-spoke when I made the comment regarding the fireplace - I just can't picture exactly its 'intake'. How could it be connected to otside air - would you drill a hole? How woud that affect the chimney draft? I'm quite curious now. For the boiler, I imagine that you'd put a pipe out through the chimney, similarly how they do for the wood inserts. Is that so?

To answer your question - the fireplace and the boiler have separate chimneys, but not too far from each other. I was actually on the roof this morning (I have a flat roof), and looked to see how close they are. I had thought that they are next to each other - but actually the upstairs chimney (the one that will take the Clydesdale) is in the middle. The chimneys are actually built together - there is a common outside wall, with three openings/chimneys, corresponding to the three burning locations. The boiler opening is a little smaller than those for the fireplaces. None of the openings have covers - so this is something else I need to take care of. I could see all the leaves down the middle, unused chimney.


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## Gooserider (Jan 13, 2008)

bluesisgreat said:
			
		

> Cath - I'll definitely post pictures. It will be beautiful - that I know
> 
> Gooserider - no, there is no fresh air intake for either the fireplace or the boiler (that I know of). I mis-spoke when I made the comment regarding the fireplace - I just can't picture exactly its 'intake'. How could it be connected to otside air - would you drill a hole? How woud that affect the chimney draft? I'm quite curious now. For the boiler, I imagine that you'd put a pipe out through the chimney, similarly how they do for the wood inserts. Is that so?



The typical approach for doing an outside air kit is to drill a hole in the wall, often going through the sill area since that's easiest, and installing a vent that sort of looks like a dryer vent without the flap.  The then run a duct from the vent to the appliance where they have an adapter to connect it to the air intake.  Typically the duct is fairly small, 3-4" diameter is typical, some even use dryer vent duct materials.  With a furnace this is pretty easy as you have a fairly small area where the burner pulls in the combustion air.  With a fireplace, it's harder as the combustion air comes in through the entire fireplace opening, unless that is blocked by doors, and much more air is needed because of the way a fireplace works.  For a fireplace they might put a duct into the back of the firebox, but that is hard to retrofit, so mostly they just put the duct near the opening and hope the air makes its way over.  Some applications have a fan like that in an HRV ventilator that just tries to bring more air into the room in general.

Stoves and inserts are designed to be mostly run with the doors closed, so they also have small well defined air intakes, and use an approach more like that used on a furnace.



> To answer your question - the fireplace and the boiler have separate chimneys, but not too far from each other. I was actually on the roof this morning (I have a flat roof), and looked to see how close they are. I had thought that they are next to each other - but actually the upstairs chimney (the one that will take the Clydesdale) is in the middle. The chimneys are actually built together - there is a common outside wall, with three openings/chimneys, corresponding to the three burning locations. The boiler opening is a little smaller than those for the fireplaces. None of the openings have covers - so this is something else I need to take care of. I could see all the leaves down the middle, unused chimney.



Glad to hear you have seperate flues (minor definition - a "FLUE" is the passage that smoke exits through, a "chimney" is a structure that can contain one or more flues) a multi-flue chimney is no problem, though some will say that you should have slight differences in the heights of each opening.  You can either get caps that cover each flue opening individually, or a common cap that will cover the entire chimney top with one peice.  You can also do fairly simple or get really elaborate with fancy chimney pots and other such decorative caps.

Gooserider


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## bluesisgreat (Jan 13, 2008)

Thanks, Gooserider for all that interesting information - and I'm really glad to learn the exact difference between chimney and flue. Regarding the caps, I already talked to the people who will install the insert to add caps to all the flues, so it will happen soon.

Regarding the different heights on the chimney - would the firepace chimney be desired to be higher than the boiler chimney? For the Clydesdale installation, I'm just about at the limit of minimum flue height  - so I was wondering if it would be desirable to extend the middle chimney higher. 

While on the roof, I also noticed a couple of pipes sticking out, in some other parts of the roof. One was far away, the other about 8-10 ft. away from the chimney. They looked like air intake pipes - about 3-4" diameter, made out of metal. What do you think they are? What other appliances need venting or air intake? The one far away is somewhere above the kitchen.

Silvia


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## jadm (Jan 13, 2008)

I have learned a lot - as always - reading replies to your topic.  I am a current insert (Napoleon 1101) owner who has never had a free standing stove and am considering switching to a Hearthstone Phoenix hoping to get more heat and longer heat into the area where our insert is.  

Thanks to the person who explained the heat diff. between an insert and a stove.


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## Gooserider (Jan 13, 2008)

bluesisgreat said:
			
		

> Thanks, Gooserider for all that interesting information - and I'm really glad to learn the exact difference between chimney and flue. Regarding the caps, I already talked to the people who will install the insert to add caps to all the flues, so it will happen soon.



Sounds good.  As a minor note, the one downside that some folks experience with caps is that they can get clogged with creosote, but this usually isn't a problem if you are burning good wood and operating your stove properly.  If it is, then enlarging the holes in the screen can help reduce the problem.



> Regarding the different heights on the chimney - would the firepace chimney be desired to be higher than the boiler chimney? For the Clydesdale installation, I'm just about at the limit of minimum flue height  - so I was wondering if it would be desirable to extend the middle chimney higher.



I'm not sure of the exact rule, but my understanding is that the shortest chimney is the one that should stick up the highest, and the difference only needs to be about 6" to a foot.  Since you are putting the Clydesdale on the upper floor, that is the one that should be pushed up.  The other question is how you should extend it.  With a masonry chimney, the most common approach is to add a short section of clay flue tile.  Or if you're getting a liner, make the top section rigid and let it stick up a bit extra, or use flex (preferably insulated) and one of the "Extenda-flue" units that our fearless webmaster sells.



> While on the roof, I also noticed a couple of pipes sticking out, in some other parts of the roof. One was far away, the other about 8-10 ft. away from the chimney. They looked like air intake pipes - about 3-4" diameter, made out of metal. What do you think they are? What other appliances need venting or air intake? The one far away is somewhere above the kitchen.
> 
> Silvia



Well I don't know what is in your house, but normally you will have "stink pipes" that vent your sanitary sewer plumbing (drains) - these are a critical part of your sewer system as they prevent the build up of potentially explosive sewer gases - however in a newer house they are usually PVC plumbing.  Typically they will stick straight up a few inches to a foot or so, and have no caps or covers on them.  The ones I've seen have been made of pipe, and are more like about 2-3" diameter. They will be located more or less directly over each plumbing "stack" or set of drains.  Other possibilities could be kitchen or bathroom vent fan outlets, drier vents, etc.  These are normally light guage sheet metal, and are larger, 3-6" diameter, and will typically have some sort of cap on them

Gooserider


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## bluesisgreat (Jan 13, 2008)

Thanks a lot - like always, a wealth of information.

I think the pipes must be from the sewer system - my drier and the hood above the cooktop vent on the side of the house, just like you said, with about 5-6" light metal pipes with a flap on them. Just for the record, my house is old, and I have a septic system and well water.

I'll keep everybody posted on my progress on all fronts.


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## bluesisgreat (Feb 3, 2008)

I now have a question regarding the hearth and the R value. Is a slab of granite about 1" thick good enough? My understanding is that it has a very low R value, so it needs something else below it to meet the wood insert installation spec, which calls for R=1 (two orders of magnitude higher than granite). 

However, all the installers I talked to seem to think that it would not be a problem, and don't know too much about R-values. Ready-made hearths are constructed with some 1" material (dura??? - I can't remember the name) for the fire-resistance, plus tiles on top, just for the esthetics - consistent with my understanding that such thin granite would no be adequate.

The hearth would extend only 2" farther than the existing hearth - which is made of stone, and flush with the floor. I imagine that the existing hearth has the same issue of not having an appropriate R value, but the comment I got from the fireplace inspector when I bought the house was that it was only too short, and nothing about not having the right construction. I have hardwood floors around it.

Of course, this fireplace with the existing small hearth has been used for almost 50 years with no problem - but I don't know what th story is with a wood insert.

Any thoughts?


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## bluesisgreat (Feb 3, 2008)

PS) I just went through the picture gallery on this site, and if my understanding is right, I saw a lot of installations (stoves and inserts) that would not have a high R value - just a thin layer of stone/brick of one sort or another. So, I would assume that those houses did not go up in flames, and thus a slab of granite should be OK - even though not to spec. 

But I'm still intrigued by this spec - when I first read about R value for the first time, I thought that this was one of the reasons that some fireplaces are installed high, and have a hearth on the order of one foot in front of them - thicknes brings the total R value up. 

Thanks!


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## Gooserider (Feb 4, 2008)

Traditional fireplaces are generally built in large part on a masonry foundation, so they have good fire resistance / R-value inherently on the firebox, and pretty good on the hearth, Zero-Clearance pre-fab units are pretty well insulated, but may have additional specs on the hearth - both generally pull so much air into them, and put out so little heat, that they don't need huge hearth R-values, and most of the reasons for the raised hearths is aesthetics - get the fire up where people can see it...  There are code requirements for clearances and such, and they have tended to go up over the years as fire safety has become more of a science, and possibly because the loss of the skills involved in heating with fire due to most people relying on automated technology more and more, causing more accidents...  However they are not as clearcut as a stove manual is, and may be 

An insert or stove however, can potentially put out MUCH more heat, and a lot of that heat comes in the form of radiant heat coming out the front of the stove, which increases the need for insulation on the hearth.  Further, the nature of an insert or stove allows them to be tested scientifically to determine just how much insulation is needed, which can (and does) vary from model to model.  There is an article on hearth construction in the wiki which, among other things lists a great many materials and the R-value of common thickness layers.  Granite is listed at R= 0.083 for a 1" thickness, which would not even be close if that was all that you used and the appliance manual called for an R-1 value for the hearth.  However many inserts don't require as much, so you might be able to find a different brand where it would be adequate.  The other alternative that I would suggest would be to build a "sandwich" of one layer of Micore, a layer of Durock, followed by a layer of 1/4" granite tiles - this would give a nice look and meet the insulation requirements.

You might also talk to your building inspector (the only opinion that really counts since he's the one that signs off on your permits and inspections) and see what he will require.  The requirements are in a bit of flux right now, as the code in the US recently changed from 16" in front of loading doors to 18" - but many manuals haven't been updated yet to reflect the new distances, and there are disagreements about what value should actually be required.  Further, while the stove manuals mostly will only list one value for the required R value, mostly to keep things simple, one could argue that the value for the edge away from the stove doesn't really need to be as high as directly in front of it - thus SOME insepectors will allow a little flex in their requirements, especially when looking at upgrading a pre-existing install - however this purely discretionary on their part, so you need to make a case for it.

Gooserider


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## bluesisgreat (Feb 4, 2008)

Thanks a lot, everything makes sense now.

I am wondering why you suggested adding the durock layer, as well - I found that 0.5" of micore has R=1.1 - so that should be plenty already. Are there some mechanical issues with putting granite right on top of micore? 

I also found another brand of ceramic board, fibrefrax, which has the same R value as micore. Is one better than other, or easier to find? A while back when I talked to the people who are selling me the stove, I was told that the bottom layer should be some metal sheet, and then the sandwich. What's behind that?

This is a useful link for the various materials and their R values.

http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/horvalue.htm


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## bluesisgreat (Feb 4, 2008)

I posted before reading the Wiki - I think now that you suggested added the Durock on top just for added protection - along the lines that more R is better. Maybe then I should use a thicker micore? I want to use granite slab, not tiles - so I need to talk to the installers and find a solution for the edges.

I still find it amazing that in my neck of the woods the professional installers are not familiar with the R value. Maybe few people have inserts, and they only know about fireplaces...

I also learned that micore may be hard to find. I'm hoping that my stove dealer will be able to procure it - even though they mentioned durarock when I talked to them.


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## Gooserider (Feb 4, 2008)

bluesisgreat said:
			
		

> I posted before reading the Wiki - I think now that you suggested added the Durock on top just for added protection - along the lines that more R is better. Maybe then I should use a thicker micore? I want to use granite slab, not tiles - so I need to talk to the installers and find a solution for the edges.



Not really - it's more a "nature of materials" thing - Micore is comparitively "soft and squishy" so even though 1/2" of Micore is more than you need purely for the R-value, it isn't suitable as underlayment for tile or your granite slab, the Durock is there as underlayment...  While it is true that more R is theoretically better, and you would get that with the added Durock, it isn't really all that necessary, the only time I really suggest adding extra R would be if trying to do "future-proof" construction where you could accomodate any stove that you might want to put there without having to worry about inadequate R-value making you need to reconstruct.  In the case of an extension, this generally isn't as big of a deal - there is no real benefit in making the extension have a higher value than the original hearth....  In terms of how to handle it, as long as the extension ends up being larger than the minimum, it doesn't really matter in code terms how you handle the edges - some people use wooden moldings.  What might also work would be to use the method I did with my extension of cutting out some of the subfloor, and building back up with the Micore and Durock so that only the granite would show above the floor.



> I still find it amazing that in my neck of the woods the professional installers are not familiar with the R value. Maybe few people have inserts, and they only know about fireplaces...
> I also learned that micore may be hard to find. I'm hoping that my stove dealer will be able to procure it - even though they mentioned durarock when I talked to them.



I'm surprised the installers don't know about this sort of thing as well, you'd think they would want to meet safety standards, but...   I'm less surprised about the materials though, Durock is a very standard material, most building supply places carry it, with the possible exception of Home Depot...  Micore is not a commonly used construction material so it can be harder to find.  However it is one of the best things to use to get a lot of R-value in a minimal thickness.

Gooserider


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## bluesisgreat (Feb 10, 2008)

hi, Gooserider - well, I was able to find a place that sells micore - they also sell fireplace surround/hearths kits. I talked to them, and I was told that it is OK to use micore alone, it is not necessary to add durock - but I want to check with you, especially since the people who will be doing the installation have never worked with this material.

For me, using micore alone seems like an advantage, especially because it is squeshy - it means that whatever irregularities are in the stone that I have right now on the hearth would be evened out, I would not have to worry about some high spots that would produce stress on the granite slab on top. I also need the least height possible on the hearth because of the mantle clearance.

Could you please comment?

-Thanks!


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## bluesisgreat (Feb 10, 2008)

I've uploaded the picture of the fireplace where the insert will be. Once I have it done, I'll change the picture with the new one. Now I'm curious if it will show.


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## Gooserider (Feb 11, 2008)

bluesisgreat said:
			
		

> hi, Gooserider - well, I was able to find a place that sells micore - they also sell fireplace surround/hearths kits. I talked to them, and I was told that it is OK to use micore alone, it is not necessary to add durock - but I want to check with you, especially since the people who will be doing the installation have never worked with this material.
> 
> For me, using micore alone seems like an advantage, especially because it is squeshy - it means that whatever irregularities are in the stone that I have right now on the hearth would be evened out, I would not have to worry about some high spots that would produce stress on the granite slab on top. I also need the least height possible on the hearth because of the mantle clearance.
> 
> ...


Well most of the discussion I've seen has been for folks using tile, or stone that works the same way - for instance I used 1/4" slate on my own extension - and when working with tile, you MUST have a rigid underlayment or the job will fail in short order - either the grout lines will break, the tiles will pop, or crack, etc.  The reference stuff that I've seen says that Micore by itself doesn't have the rigidity required, but that adding a layer of Durock, with thinset between the layers does, assuming the floor underneath is OK.

You are using a single granite slab as I understand it, which may change things.  However the basic idea stays the same, you either have to have a slab that is thick enough to support any loads on it's own, or have a substrate under it that can give it full support - such as a mortar bed on a rigid substrate...  The Micore might be OK for that, but I'm not sure, and I don't really know who to ask, unless you can go to the manufacturer's website and get a tech support person to help.

Gooserider


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## bluesisgreat (Feb 11, 2008)

thanks - that makes sense.

I'm going to just order the micore and then the installers will be able to figure out what they need to do.

On a completely different topic, I'm wondering why the picture I uploaded in my profile did not show up in my previous posting - maybe it will show up now.


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## Gooserider (Feb 12, 2008)

If you mean your avatar (little picture under your name) that is showing now.  If you meant a photo in your post, it didn't show up - usually if there is a problem with a photo in your post, you should get an error message.  The biggest problems are usually either file size, or file names.  The size is limited, I forget the official limits, but I find 640x480 JPEGs saved at about 75% quality work pretty well.  The other big gotcha is that the file name must have an extension on it that gives the file type, which must match the file - i.e. a JPEG file must be named "something.JPG"....

Gooserider


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## bluesisgreat (Oct 12, 2008)

Well, almost one year later, my Clydesdale is installed, and I'm waiting for the granite surround to be installed in a few days. 

One thing to know is that the blue-black finish looks really good, but the door is still pure black - so it looks quite odd. I ended up getting the matte-black version, even though I would've liked if the whole stove would've been blue-black.

I ended up using Micore for the thermal insulation (R=1.1 for 0.5"). It is not that easy to find - so, for reference, here is the link:
http://www.mantelsdirect.com/MC300-Micore-Board?amp;category=304

The hearth and surround are made of granite - will change my avatar once it is done.

I'll be back here looking for help on operating it.

Thanks everyone for helping me make my decisions.


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## bren582 (Oct 19, 2008)

Silvia,
I'm just getting into the Insert game her in New Jersey and I'm real close to pulling the trigger on a Clydesdale. Finding this thread has been a gold mine of information. I was wondering if you have pictures of the installation process and finished installation. I'd love to see them. Are they posted in the picture section? If not and you have them would you mind sending them top me? 
I to was thinking of going with the blue black satin finish versus flat black as that color schemed would go well with the brick fireplace I plan on installing it in.  but your note on the door being black and the rest blue/black gives me pause.  I'm going to ask the dealer about that in case they have changed that. I can't believe the manufacturer would do that??   

Thanks,
peter


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## bluesisgreat (Oct 20, 2008)

Peter - I assure you that the door is still black - I was as amazed as you were, especially because the stand-alone Hearthstone stoves which are blue-black have some beautiful doors. Well, it seems to be a technical issue: the frame of the door on the Clydesdale is very thin, so as to allow the largest viewing area - thus, it is made of steel, and they can't enamel that. It took me the whole summer to finally decide that I cannot put up with that difference in color. Maybe to some it is not noticeable - but for me was really sticking out. BTW - the blue-black is the only version they sell in Europe - I really can't believe they are selling any - the models there are much more modern and striking (take a look at Bokeman's stove from Spain).

The blue-black is more expensive, and the prices went up since I ordered the original blu-black. The dealer exchanged it, and I ended up paying the same for the black one as I had planned to pay for the blue-black. Also, with the gas prices going up, they are very back-ordered. I was lucky to find an old one at a different dealer (even father away than the 1 hr 15 minutes than my dealer is), and that dealer was wiling to send it to my dealer (because they were so swamped installing stoves that they did not really want another job!). So, make sure the model you want is in stock.

I don't have any installation pictures, as the dealer installed it for me -so I only have what is in the manual that you can download for free from the company. Hope this helps.


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## bluesisgreat (Oct 20, 2008)

I just noticed that my avatar did not change - I posted the finished installation, including the granite surround. I'll check into that.

The complete installation was finished last Monday - and I haven't fired it up yet. I'm waiting for the building inspector to check it out - and I'll start the learning curve sometime in mid-November, when I come back from a trip.


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## Cath (Oct 20, 2008)

blueisgreat,
Thanks for the update.  I look forward to seeing more pictures.  I hope they don't make me too wistful for a Morgan.

Happy burning.  
~Cath


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## noce (Jan 6, 2013)

This thread on Clydesdale is awesome!

Does anyone know off-hand if there have been any engineering or design changes to the Clydesdale since this earlier thread that might address any concerns raised (blower rattle in Turner-n-Burner's post #21 above) or other advice on this insert?


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## Bluezx636 (Jan 6, 2013)

I think it was 2009 that they made some changes to the blowers and door handle....I have had my Clydesdale for a few months now and I love it. When it comes to the blowers mine have been pretty good just once in while it might buzz but its not the blowers its the the surround vibrating and just giving it a quick tap stops it. Just recently someone posted the fix for it which Hearthstone will send to you and I plan on calling or E-mailing one day for its just a little rubber piece that stops vibration
http://www.hearthstonestoves.com/as...lydesdale 8491 Vibration Dampener Install.pdf


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## ClydesdaleBurner (Jan 16, 2013)

Hahaha.  Great to see this thread revived. Every so often I search hearth.com forums for Clydesdale talk.  I did a search tonight and saw this one come up after 5 plus years since originally posted.  There is some great info in here.  The posts about running a channel or path down the center of the firebox from front to back to promote good airflow to the stove... I still do that every day!  Glad to see there a lot of new Clydesdale owners enjoying their stoves.  As for the "new" Clydesdale I believe the interior / inner parts of the stove have not changed, but the door, handle/latch and blower assembly have all been improved.  I think the "new" Clydesdale does have some nice improvements over the "old" version which I own.  A friend has the new version and the blower assembly seems to have a lot less vibration noise... althought after years with my insert I know how to stop any noises now...

Happy burning Clydesdale owners!


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## Jon fisher (Nov 13, 2013)

bluesisgreat said:


> I would like to get a wood insert, and was about to order the Clydesdale, when I came across some bad reviews, so I'm asking for your direct input.
> 
> What drew me to the Clydesdale is the large viewing area and the availability of a screen for open-door viewing. I envision using it with the door open 1-2 hrs per day - I LOVE watching and hearing the fire. I had been looking at the Jotul Kennebunk 450 (because of the larger viewing area than the newer 350 and 550), but the screen is what tilted things towards the Clydesdale. The soapstone lining also seems like a nice feature.
> 
> ...


Horrible insert ! Very little burn control,either full tilt of simmer, don't bother buying the screen to attempt to run the insert with the door open, blower used to rattle, no support for fix from local distributed or company, we had to stuff insulation under the blower to stop the rattling, very little benefit from the stove if you don't run the blower, blower so loud you can't stand to be in the next room over when the blower is running, front lower rim is to low causing ash to spill out when you open the door to reload the stove, I spent allot of money for this insert so I'm stuck with it....good thing I'm moving in a couple years. I would look an another solution and don't be afraid to ask the dealer for the names and phone numbers of customers who have the stove/insert your looking at, call them and go visit before your make the investment.


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## Firedancer (Nov 13, 2013)

^^LOVE this insert!  BEST purchase of the year!  She's packing quite a punch and heating my 1600 sq ft home rather nicely. 

From what I've read, there was a problem with the blowers a few years ago which is now fixed. I have no issues with my blower. Sounds like a small fan-depending on your setting. 

Screen is just a waste of money and heat. I opted to not get that...

As far as the ashes go-open door slowly, ashes stay inside.


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## mstoelton (Dec 16, 2013)

Just installed my new clydesdale in our basement family room.  Installed in a 1964 brick ranch, full basement.  Absolutely love the insert.  Fan is quiet on the refreshed clyde - not noisy at all.  This is our first insert so we are learning how to get the best heat out of it.  Absolutley love the secondary flames when dampered down.


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