# Wood Gasification Boilers -- Are they 'too expensive,' or are they 'free'?



## cguida (Jan 10, 2009)

Are wood gasification boilers too expensive, or are they actually free?

Or to phrase it another way, do 10 -15 thousand dollar gasification installations actualy make practical, economic sense?

This might border on heresy, but none-the-less, lets explore.  It might turn out that gasification boilers are not so expensive at all.  Given their greater efficiency, maybe they turn out to be free after a few years. Further, 'expensive' is a relative term -- expensive compared to what?  Either way -- expensive or free -- it would be interesting to hear from peole who know about this stuff  --  dealers, plumbers, deadicated science-experimenters, data collectors -- do gasifiers actually 'pencil out?' Where do they make sense?  And where are they clearly pretty extravagant?

Dealers must know right off if the expense of a gasifier makes sense in any given circumstance.  All you really need to know is the person's exisiting cost of heat, and the price of firewood.  That, plus the Interest Rate.  In the last analysis, what else is there?  And lately I've begun to wonder about the interest rate.  If gasifiers actaully save significant amounts of money, why don't dealers offer to finance the boilers, with payback coming from the fuel savings. If the savings are actually there, wouldn't that be a great way to sell lots of units. Maybe add some insurance to proctect all concerned.  What do people consider a reasonable payback period, and what kinds of input numbers do you have to put in to achieve that magic number?

If it were possible to go out an borrow the money, and pay it back via fuel savings over a reasonable period.... I'd be sorely tempted.

As it stands, lets say I have a yearly fuel oil expense of $3200.  Quality firewood around here costs 270/chord.  What would be a realistic interest rate these days? How many years might it take to cover the cost of an hypothetical 12-15 thousand dollar installation? Could it really be done with no cash outlay on my part - i.e. barrow the whole thing and pay it back with the savings? 

Seems too good to be true.  What do you think?


----------



## Steaming Pile (Jan 10, 2009)

I think if I had to pay $270.00 a cord or buy wood period I'd still be burning oil. Or explore other options.....


----------



## wolfkiller (Jan 10, 2009)

some might disagree but IMO the main reason to burn wood as a primary source of heat is so you control the fuel price and supply. If I was going to have fuel dilevered I would look into weather gas, oil, coal, pellets, electric, or corn was the best value in my area. I burn wood because it cost me about $20 and 5 hrs per cord.


----------



## Wade (Jan 10, 2009)

My home-built gasification boiler with 3000 gallons storage, cost me 2500$ and all my fuel is free from surrounding manufacturers (sawdust, scraps by the trailer load). People need to be more reliant on themselves and less on their cheque book!


----------



## seige101 (Jan 10, 2009)

Smee said:
			
		

> Quality firewood around here costs 270/chord.



In my opinion the people who are investing a significant amount of money into a gasification boiler are not going to pay for cord wood. 
They will either:
1. have a large supply of wood on their land (free)
2. scrounge the amount of needed wood. (free)
3. buy triaxle loads of similar and process it them selves
4 or a combination of the above.


----------



## daleeper (Jan 10, 2009)

Wade said:
			
		

> My home-built gasification boiler with 3000 gallons storage, cost me 2500$ and all my fuel is free from surrounding manufacturers (sawdust, scraps by the trailer load). People need to be more reliant on themselves and less on their cheque book!



Wade, you haven't posted much info or photos of this boiler that I can find in your posts, unless I missed one.  I for one would be interested in photos, more detailed design information, and how it is working for you.  In particular, how you are burning sawdust in this boiler would be interesting to me.  Rather than hijack this thread though, might want to start a new one, or update one of your first threads.


----------



## Nofossil (Jan 10, 2009)

Let's see....

If you have a 1000 gallon per year oil habit and assume $3.50 going forward, that gives you your $3500 per year current cost. To be fair, let's also add the amortized cost of your oil boiler plus installation. I'll guess that's about $5000, so divided by a 20 year useful life, that gives us another $250 per year for a cost of $3750.

In a gasifier, a cord of wood replaces at least 150 gallons of oil. That works out to about 6.5 cords per year in this example. At the extremely high rate of $270 per cord, that's $1755 per year for wood. Amortizing the $10,000 cost of the boiler over its 20 year life adds $500 per year for a total of $2255 annual cost.

Over 20 years, the oil will cost you $75,000. The gasifier will cost you $45,000.

For fun, let's also consider a non-gasifier. Assume $4000 less installed cost and 40% more wood consumption. In your case, the 20 year cost for the non-gasifier would be about $55,000.

There are a number of ways to look at this, but almost any reasonable scenario shows a huge advantage for the gasifier. If wood is very inexpensive, then the gasifier doesn't have as much financial advantage over other woodburning appliances.

I haven't looked at the interest rate or inflation, but I expect that as an investment it's a bunch better than the stock market....


----------



## sweetheat (Jan 10, 2009)

seems to good to be true? IMO it will payback very quick. we all know oil will go up, soon. wood is available and to some it's free. I've never burned any oil, but I listen to my mom and dad complain about the cost of oil. They are about to make the switch to wood even at 85 years. They can see the savings. smee if I were you I'd pick up your telephone today and call a gasification manf. and buy some $270 a cord hardwood. its almost as easy as oil in a tank dribbling into you heater, just more efficient and cleaner. I just purchased for 3 years ahead at $200. in eastern Maine!    sweetheat


----------



## Tarmsolo60 (Jan 10, 2009)

I think 1 cord of good hardwood is equal to about 150 gallons of oil.

If the wood comes in less than the oil, there is your available money for your payment per cord used.

I pay $80 cord log length delivered, 150 gallons of oil at $3.00 is $450

every cord I burn when oil is $3.00 saves me $370

every cord I burned when oil was $2.00 saved me $220

I think a cheap wood supply is the key, I know there are some costs and labor involved with processing. The labor doesn't bother me, the other costs maybe $2k equipment lifetime can be tacked on the boiler cost to figure payback time.

I have 16 acres of mostly hardwood I live on but as long as I can buy log length for a cheap price delivered I'll keep doing it.

So, burning 6 cords when oil is $3.00 would save me $2200 (pretty quick payback in my opinion)

Oil would have to get pretty cheap and stay there to make it worth it for me not to gasify.

Thats my off the cuff calculation, someone please advise me if I'm mistaken.


----------



## muncybob (Jan 10, 2009)

I think all the above calculations are on the right track...depending on your own circumstances. I made a spreadsheet to compare the long term costs of several scenarios for me...1. install new better efficient oil boiler 2. Install an OWB  3. Install indoor or outdoor non gasser  4. install indoor or outdoor gasser...all of which would have some sort of indirect hot water and outdoor temp control and most likely heat storage at some point(I was using 500 gal propane tank in my costs).  All costs were entered using quotes provided to me by professional installs. No matter how you slice it, given enough time the gasser always comes out ahead. I built in inflation factors and apr% if I have to bowrrow any or all of the funds. The unknown variable besides future cost of fuel(be it it oil or wood) is just how long and maintenance free any boiler will be. I built in an assumption of relatively little repair costs and average "cost free repair" life of 15 years. After playing around with several "what ifs" in my spreadsheet I always came back to the conclusion a gasser will pay for itself in well under 10 years. Since I plan to still be living here in 10+ years it's a no brainer to me! I truly am looking forward to this coming spring/summer more so than any other year as that's when we'll be doing the install. I only hope oil costs stay down until then!


----------



## Nofossil (Jan 10, 2009)

I think it's well worth noting that the gasifier comes out ahead even if you add in other necessary expenses such as $20,000 for a nice 4wd diesel tractor with bucket and a set of nice chainsaws with all the accessories ;-)


----------



## ken999 (Jan 10, 2009)

I'm still struggling with going gasser or non-gasser for an OWB.

I've got 22 acres of wood here at the house. I'll be burning dry wood in either to combat the smoke.

With the gasser, I will not have to split as fine meaning alot less maul time for me. The standard OWB will take bigger chunks.

Gassers usually require indoor water storage for maximum BTU extraction adding to the already higher cost (+- $2000).


----------



## DaveBP (Jan 10, 2009)

I work with a number of guys who think I'm crazy to buy a gassifier that cost less than the Harleys they ride to work on the 40 to 50 good weather days in the summer.


----------



## lawandorder (Jan 10, 2009)

My Story-

1000-1200 gals of fuel oil per year even at $3 gal (neighbors locked in at 4.59 this year) means 3K-4k per year in fuel oil.  Used home equity loan for Tarm Solo 40 w/storage put into boiler room attached to 2 car garage all piped underground to the house. Put in-floor heat in garage as well. Assuming oil stays in the 3$ range (which I dont think will happen) I will have a return in 5 yrs. I get my wood at $50 face cord delivered. I order half and cut the rest myself by scrounging our property and cutting enough for the year ahead.  HAvent burned any oil since first week of October and I still have 300 gals  in tanks.  3200 sg ft house kept at 70-72 and a warm garage.  For me it was a quick decision. Now I am refinancing mortgage after my wife locked in at 4.5%.  Would be happier if I had good seasoned wood this winter but its getting better.  right now its -3 degrees with house at 70 and not a drop of oil burned.  For me it worked out better than my "investments" and stocks for retirment which have tanked.


----------



## Eric Johnson (Jan 10, 2009)

It also pays to consider the value of a clean-burning appliance. You might justify going with a conventional boiler or OWB based on sticker price alone , but if you alienate your neighbors with the smoke or find yourself on the wrong side of a new ordinance or other legislation, what have you really saved?

As to wood vs. oil or gas--as noted above, it's all about control.


----------



## ken999 (Jan 10, 2009)

As it stands, the only ordinance we have is a permit is required to burn from May to Sep. I can't see my municipality banning any existing boilers, only restricting new installs.

I am worried about offending neighbors, hence my desire to burn dry wood only. My current PE insert has not drawn any complaints to date.


----------



## stee6043 (Jan 10, 2009)

Assuming cost were a non-issue the two biggest considerations I had were the amount of smoke produced and amount of wood required.  I have close neighbors and an HOA to deal with.  I don't want to stack 10 cord of wood behind my house.  4-5 stacked is much better and much less "noticeable".  I also wanted the cleanest burn possible so as to keep neighbors from even knowing I'm burning.

I took out a loan to purchase my EKO and the payback on my system will be 5 years assuming natural gas prices stay the same for the next 5 years.  If natural gas prices go up, payback goes down....my wood is free....and let's not forget this is definitely a hobby.  How many hobbies actual pay you back eventually?


----------



## Dave T (Jan 10, 2009)

If all us wood burners turned to fossil fuels it would trickle down big time, not just heat, not just hot water, remember SUPPLY & DEMAND more to fill your car,more to supply electric to your house, more to put products on the shelves in stores,and just like we are seeing right now that leads to job losses and instability all the way around..When we burn wood we promote growth (which is very importand right now) by keeping all prices except the price of wood down..Keep in mind when fuel prices jumped up to over 4.00 a gallon many people rushed out to buy wood burning appliances without looking at the work involved burning wood,that is going to lead to wood burning units to come up for sale used and much cheaper than new..I bought my used EKO 60 standard, installed it myself(with some help from my friends on this site and family) and installed a 35' tall triple wall chimney,for 8,000 dollars with 1,000 dollars more I'll have storage as well..As said above rely on yourself not your wallet when at all possible..Dave


----------



## ken999 (Jan 10, 2009)

HOA?


----------



## stee6043 (Jan 10, 2009)

ken999 said:
			
		

> HOA?



Sorry...Home Owners Association....I have a pretty fair association but there are not many lumberjacks on my street that would appreciate what we do.  In fact, out of 72 or so homes I have only the second "real" chimney.  Everyone else has two or three direct vented gas longs in their houses....


----------



## Grover59 (Jan 10, 2009)

I buy my wood all cut and split and I was still looking at saving 2 grand a year, I would rather invest that into a wood boiler then give it to the oil man. 

Steve


----------



## hoth2oguy (Jan 10, 2009)

we talk to a lot of people who are interested in possibly buying a boiler from us.  Certainly the primary motivation for most of them is reducing energy costs, however, energy independence (personal and national) and reducing their impact on the environment are also very strong motivations too.  These are extremely valuable features of a wood boiler even if it is difficult to figure them into a payback scenario.  Certainly the payback of a wood or pellet boiler system - even if professionally installed and fuel purchased at $270.00 a cord - has a much faster payback than a $30 - $40k PV array and there are a ton of those going in.  I am a big fan of solar by the way, just using that as a way to illustrate that purchase decisions are not made on payback only.


----------



## cguida (Jan 10, 2009)

lawandorder said:
			
		

> My Story-
> 
> 1000-1200 gals of fuel oil per year even at $3 gal (neighbors locked in at 4.59 this year) means 3K-4k per year in fuel oil.  Used home equity loan for Tarm Solo 40 w/storage put into boiler room attached to 2 car garage all piped underground to the house. Put in-floor heat in garage as well. Assuming oil stays in the 3$ range (which I dont think will happen) I will have a return in 5 yrs. I get my wood at $50 face cord delivered.




Hello LawandOrder 

More precious than jewels ... a man with up-to-date real-dollar figures, and an interest rate(!).  There's only one thing missing -- how much did the Tarm and installation cost?  If I could actually get money at 4.5 percent and duplicate your results and get a 5 year pay-back period, I'd be very sorely tempted.

But the first step is to get realistic figures into a spreadsheet and see how it all fits together.  Excuse me a minute while I find the posts people who have made spreadsheets on this question....

Meanwhile thanks for posting your experience. A five-year payback is pretty close to Free!  Send us some more details!


----------



## 603doug (Jan 10, 2009)

No one has posted the best advantage, cutting, yarding wood out, splitting keeps you young. All my friends who burn oil not only pay what ever opec and the speculators decided they have memberships at the local exercise parlors


----------



## cguida (Jan 10, 2009)

muncybob said:
			
		

> I think all the above calculations are on the right track...depending on your own circumstances. I made a spreadsheet to compare the long term costs of several scenarios for me...



Hello Muncybob,

From the sound of it, your spreadsheet looks to be unusually complete and comprehensive.  Would you post it as an attachment that we could download and experiment with -- maybe enter in our own numbers and see where we stand on the 'Payback Continuum'?

If there are other spreadsheets out there, by all means put them up where we can take a peek.  Everybody's individual circumstances are different, so it is unlikely that one (spreadsheet) size will fit all.  But by comparing approaches, we might be able to build a realistic spreadsheet that would be useful in a wide variety of circumstances. 

Some thoughts about spreadsheet inputs --

First, about wood.  For spreadsheet purposes, there is no such thing as free wood.  I know because I have cut plenty of it. Mostly I've enjoyed it. But the ture cost of free wood includes your time and labor, your saw, your tractor, your winch, your truck, taxes and or stumpage, maybe your ponies and their gear and winter feed, and certainly your chiropractic bill.  All told, the cost of free wood, (or long wood that you work up yourself) is the price in your area for the same wood cut, split, and dumped in your dooryard -- at least for spreadsheet purposes.

[More about wood prices around here: $270/cord is pretty steep (Out-blanking-rageous!).  I just happened to run into a big firewood dealer few minutes ago. He said the reason was first the high price that competing mills were paying in the first half of 2008; and sheer fear of $4.50 heating oil. I don't see how the price of firewood can stay that high for long -- especially with the Mill Price and the heating oil price both dropping fast.  But meanwhile commercial firewood prices around here are "sticky," probably due to very sparce population and lack of competition among the few commercial sellers.]

Second, somebody pointed out a cost that we seldom factor in -- a place to store wood.  This applies to all wood no matter how you burn it, but it applies particularly to gasser wood, since gasifiers are kind of fussy about spicies, size, shape, and moisture content. 

Third, I appreciate No Fossil's post(s) on this subject.  In this forum he is the premier Science Project-er, and I always learn stuff from him. But when it comes to deciding weather or not to go into debt for a gasifier, it doesn't seem right to count the capital cost of the existing heating system.  Unless you are planning new construction, the existing heating system is already there -- paid for.  The only thing that matters is fuel cost (and maybe some maintenance). 

Ideally, a spreadsheet might have some sliders on it whereby you could dial up your existing fuel cost; firewood cost; purchase-and-installation cost; Interest cost; new fuel cost -- and out would come your own customized years-to-payback number.

I can see I am going to have to study up on the concept of amortization.  Just comparing 20 years of capital and operationg expenses between the two systems doesn't tell you when the magic payback point happens.  It seems to neglect the element of time (and interest).  Then again, it could be that I just don't understand the concepts very well.

Some additional semi-random thoughts --

"Optimism is the state of mind that considers Matrimony cheaper than Engagement."  I'd like to believe in a 5-year payback.  I'd just like to see it all spread out in detail.

The 8 most expensive words in the English language have to be: "This thing is going to save you money!"  On the other hand -- maybe it will save you money. And besides -- life without at least one Science Project is not worth living!  We need more real-life data on gasifier initial costs -- purchase; delivery; installation.  Does 10 thousand sound too low?  Does 20 thousand sound too high? Do I hear 15 thousand, as a fair first approximation guess?


----------



## solarguy (Jan 10, 2009)

You are going to spend 15K heating a home in a period of 5 years or so & all you've got to show for it is a bunch of receipts from your oil man.  If you set a gasifier up with the right heating system, storage & control system, a cord of wood will buy you 200-300 gallons of fuel. IMHO, this sure beats a draw full of receipts....


----------



## ken999 (Jan 10, 2009)

Luckly for me we don't have any HOA locally, nor will we ever with the way our road is set-up. Our road runs pretty much N-S, so prevailing west winds SHOULD keep most of my smoke away from the couple of neighbors I have.

Lot's of intersting views...that's for sure. I have to conceed and agreed with Smee...none of the wood is free. I'm already paying 5 grand a year in taxes on it, buying oil and spending more money makes no sense at all.


I'm still on the fence though. The good thing is I really don't think either type of stove would be a poor decision for me with my situation.


----------



## markpee (Jan 11, 2009)

To me, the gassifier is the only way to go.  I have two small kids, and smoke is not their friend.  I also have a wonderful indoor fireplace - Xtrodinaire 44 series - this too is clean, but believe it or not, the kids and wife and I have seen no ear infections this year, compared with one every other week in past years - I suppose thats what you get for 85 degrees from a fireplace.

Anyway - for me, I have 7 acres, and lots of wood.  All of it so far has been wood from trees that needed to come down to make room for stuff - I also have lots on the ground from age and storms.  I also ask people to keep me in mind when they need or have trees down - so I scavenge.  To me it was a no-brainer.  I have free wood, and the exercise I get from sawing and splitting saves me from having to join a gym.  

My wife and I sold a bunch of stuff of ebay that we didn't need and took that money to buy the EKO 40, so it was also no money out of our "operating" budget.

Everyone's situation is unique, so it really depends on you.


----------



## 88rxn/a (Jan 11, 2009)

markpee said:
			
		

> My wife and I sold a bunch of stuff of ebay that we didn't need and took that money to buy the EKO 40, so it was also no money out of our "operating" budget.
> 
> Everyone's situation is unique, so it really depends on you.




thats how my "fund" in my signature is growing!!


----------



## pybyr (Jan 11, 2009)

Smee said:
			
		

> The 8 most expensive words in the English language have to be: "This thing is going to save you money!"  On the other hand -- maybe it will save you money. And besides -- life without at least one Science Project is not worth living!  We need more real-life data on gasifier initial costs -- purchase; delivery; installation.  Does 10 thousand sound too low?  Does 20 thousand sound too high? Do I hear 15 thousand, as a fair first approximation guess?



no- the most 8 expensive words are, definitely, from my experience: 

"while I'm at it, I might as well..."

tools justify projects, and then projects justify tools, and repeat.  

at some point, remember that you are doing things that others can't and building skills, having fun, and learning things along the way, and hopefully helping pioneer new alternatives.  

blaze a trail so that others may follow

as tuition costs go, it's not bad!


----------



## heaterman (Jan 11, 2009)

What's too expensive is not doing things the right way and taking shortcuts for the sake of initial cost. Burning wood in a unit that emits gobs of pollution, ruins the reputation of wood burning in general, operates with horrible efficiency and annoys your neighbors is just plain wrong and shortsighted to boot.  Gasification burning is the only way anyone should go IMHO. Thinking short term and only about only the personal ramifications of a purchase are two of the things wrong with the prevailing wisdom here in the USA. It should be painfully obvious that any devices, machinery or equipment we buy must be as efficient as we can get due to the first of many upcoming oil shocks we experienced this past year.  

The soapbox is now open.


----------



## pybyr (Jan 11, 2009)

As Ruskin supposedly said in what's been called the Common Law of Business Balance:

"It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money -- that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot -- it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better."

In other words, plan your end game, and do your best to arrive there in one fell swoop.

The costs of backing up and re-doing, or of ending up with something dissatisfying then that you can't afford to change out, will quickly outstrip the differential between the cheap option and the good option.


----------



## NNYorker (Jan 11, 2009)

pybyr said:
			
		

> As Ruskin supposedly said in what's been called the Common Law of Business Balance:
> 
> "It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money -- that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot -- it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better."
> 
> ...




        Well said, Step 1- Buy an Adobe from Phillip Dougherty which proceeds to rust enough in three months of use to blow smoke like a chain smoker. Step 2- Replace junk with quality made product. If I had initially spent double for what I paid for the A-Crap-e and bought a Tarm with storage--End result --Way ahead of the game.....


----------



## 91220da (Jan 11, 2009)

Do it once, Do it right
I don't trust the future.  
I like to be independent.
The only "Change" we are going to see is the one we bring on ourselves.
Every time I look out the window and see only clear heat waves or a little steam exiting the stack I appreciate the gasification process.


----------



## rcollman (Jan 11, 2009)

> From the sound of it, your spreadsheet looks to be unusually complete and comprehensive.  Would you post it as an attachment that we could download and experiment with—maybe enter in our own numbers and see where we stand on the ‘Payback Continuum’?



Somebody has to have invented that wheel :D.   There are so many variables!  Planning that spreadsheet for all of them, so a stranger could understand it, would be a task.  I have two spreadsheets I built, one pre and the other one post install of the Solo40.   

The first's goal was to figure out all the variables an compute a payback (no time value of money).  I had no idea of how to figure out a breakdown of how many BTUs I needed for my house's heat, water and cooking.   So I made a bunch of estimates and then tried to match that up with some bills.   I figured payback would be 5.6 years.   We said that was good enough in May 08 and placed the order.

The next spreadsheets goal was to figure out how much wood I am using based upon the HDDs.   I have recently used that data and recalculated the payback.  Of course the install now reflected the real amount and I am still playing with the BTUs.  Current payback of upgrading our system is about 6.3 years. If our propane was the only source along with a hot water heater, our install would have a payback of 4.06 years.   

But these calcs are fine tuned for my house and the spreadsheet is designed by me and for me, not even my spouse wants to look at it.  I am wondering how much of my install dealt with plumbing issues not related to the boiler and of course if I overpaid  (So far no leaks, no calls and it was done in a couple of days in late Nov).    Yeah I know I can feel good looking at no smoke going out of my chimney.  But I have not (yet) calculated in the cost of a generator my friends downstate would say is a must  

Here is the link to the DOE spreadsheet.  Add some worksheets, update their information with yours and have fun!
www.eia.doe.gov/neic/experts/heatcalc.xls


----------



## shoeboxlen (Jan 12, 2009)

we bought our eko 25 no storage system this fall and began running it in november purchase and install of our system ran us about 9k. we purchased a truck load of log length firewood for $500 6- 8 cords on a truck load which we cut and split ourselves. If I figure right with 4k fuel oil bills a year the eko should pay for itself in 3 - 4 years. We have been extremely happy with our eko so far and we still have our 2 wood stoves in case of catastrophic emergency. no power and the generator also goes down or something like that. I know the initial outlay of $ is a tough nut to bite and I was extremely sceptical of the plan at first but I am glad we went ahead with the install if anyone were on the fence I would tell them to deffinitly pull the trigger they wont be sorry.


----------



## Nofossil (Jan 12, 2009)

My oil boiler is at end-of-life. I've replaced it with the EKO and a tankless propane heater. My total cost for EKO, storage, and the tankless was about $8K. Replacing the oil boiler would have been about $3K (I do the work myself in both cases).

My additional investment of $5K (above the cost of replacing the oil boiler) should return about $2K per year for the next 20 years.

Someone made a comment about issues with wood storage. For sure, I'd have a very hard time dealing with the amount of wood that it would take to heat my house with a conventional boiler. With the EKO, a year's worth of firewood fits under the deck right next to the boiler room window.


----------



## rickh1001 (Jan 12, 2009)

Smee, 

I think I know what you are looking for, which is are some realistic total installation cost numbers from various members on the group, so you can get a little better handle on the expected benefit/cost ratio of your various options.  Or at least, that is what I went through all of last winter when I was planning my installation (and financing!) when I went ahead last summer with the purchase and install.  Here is my setup, and what it cost me (roughly) when I got done.

First, here is the setup I put in. I have a large system, with two homes to heat, replacing 3 hot air oil furnaces.  Our total oil consumption over the past several years was 1,700 - 2,000 gal/year.  I needed an EKO60 to handle the load.  

In round numbers, it cost:

EKO60 - $8K
500 gal storage with two HX coils - one for DHW, and extra for solar input - $1.2K (should have done 1,000 gal tank!)
underground PEX plus trench work $1K
8" stainless chimney, 24' $1.2K

Installation - $4K for materials, including 3 hot air HX

So, my total costs were right around $15K.

I did all my own installation work.  If I had hired someone, it would have run around $3-4K more than the above materials.  For comparison, I had gotten a package quote on an Econoburn last year, which was an even $20K for a full installation, including everything except the underground piping.  

So for my fairly large, somewhat complex installation, I ended up at about $15K doing it myself, and it would have been $20K if I just wrote a check and let some else do all the work.  

In comparison, an EClassic outdoor gassifier would be about $12K (I don't know their current prices exactly), and I would have saved the costs of storage and an indoor chimney, but would have spent more on underground piping, so when I ran the numbers, it came out fairly close in the total costs. 

An outdoor conventional boiler (non gasifier) was a poor choice when I thought it through.  The unit itself was cheaper, but all the other costs of underground piping, etc. were the same.  I would be burning 30-40% more wood, and the lifetime of the units is not that great, due to their poor design.  Plus the only viable location I had was directly upwind of the house, and I was about to suffocate my family, forget the environment. 

I wasn't happy about spending so much on a new heating system, but especially last summer, there really was no other rational choice.  If oil were at $4-5/gal as predicted, I would be spending over half as much in oil each year as I spent on the entire new system.  Now, I can burn wood from our property, or buy additional as needed, and still pay the system off in a few years.  

In the end, even though oil is cheap for now, there is no future in it.  Maybe it will be $2/gal next year, or maybe it will be $6/gal.  Whoever expected it to drop so much since the summer? - and what goes down, can also go up.  It is a commodity that is demand, and I just don't want to be dependent up on it anymore - for both financial and environmental reasons.  So then the choice is simply between which alternate energy system do you go with?  I am planning on adding solar this coming summer, and will keep insulating and improving the heat efficiency of our homes.  Over the years, I will keep building a system that can supply our energy needs, without fossil fuel.  I can't wait for one of the kids to want to move back, so I can help them build a totally energy independent house using solar and biomass, along with a micro-hydroelectric and windmill.  I have the site on the farm already picked out!  

Finally, given the experience of some with some poorly performing gasifiers, I personally decided to go with a company with a history and a known track record, and with a local dealer who would support me.  To me, that meant Econoburn, Tarm, Eko or Greenwood, although this is not a comprehensive list.  The Garn was too large for me, and I suppose the WoodGun would another proven unit.  The worst fear I had was to spend this much money, and wind up with a problem unit, where I was serving as a guinea pig for their R&D;.  I have been extremely happy with the EKO, as have others with their other brands.  

Good luck. It is a major investment of time and money, but it is worth it, and whatever the particular spreadsheets say about payback time, etc., there just is no future with oil that I can see.  One side benefit of the EKO project, has been to get me educated in the alternate energy field.  The first step is the hardest, but now, I am comfortable with the technology, and can't wait to keep learning and doing more!


----------



## Birdman (Jan 12, 2009)

Bought Tarm 40 in May for 6700. Had good plumber install it in series with oil boiler that I already had. Cost 5 grand for install. Everything done.... very nice work. So... 11,700. I now create my own destiny. At current rates of oil... 2.20 a gallon.... I used 1000- 1300 gallons a year. So my payback is at most 5-6 years? Cripes... it an easy decision. We own our own land... have always burned wood. Easy choice. Clean, efficient, heats the whole house evenly... easy to control... the benefits go on and on. Tarm has been around a long time. If its European.... its prob better than what we have. They must laugh at us for using those smoggy inefficient OWB. ( except the Classic... I hear it is good stuff... it would have been my other choice)


----------



## freeman on the land (Jan 26, 2009)

I freely admit I,m dumb as wood on some things,
gasifier boiler??? fancy phrase for wood boiler?  
Like stimulas package = worlds largest fraud  

thanks guys


----------



## Nofossil (Jan 26, 2009)

Freeman on the land said:
			
		

> I freely admit I,m dumb as wood on some things,
> gasifier boiler??? fancy phrase for wood boiler?
> Like stimulas package = worlds largest fraud
> 
> thanks guys



Gasification boilers are a more sophisticated design that burns wood in two stages - a primary stage that generates flammable wood gas, and a secondary stage that burns the wood gas at very high temperatures. They are far more efficient than conventional boilers, and have virtually no smoke or creosote.


----------



## ezoffshore (Jan 26, 2009)

> As it stands, lets say I have a yearly fuel oil expense of $3200.  Quality firewood around here costs 270/chord.  What would be a realistic interest rate these days? How many years might it take to cover the cost of an hypothetical 12-15 thousand dollar installation? Could it really be done with no cash outlay on my part - i.e. barrow the whole thing and pay it back with the savings?



I installed an e-classic set up to heat 2 buildings and supply alll my DHW fro both buildings. Total install was roughly 17K. My average propane usage going back 5 years was about 1800 galons a year. This years price of 2.79 a gallon puts me at about a 3 1/2 year payoff. With the added bonus of heating the second building which I could have never done if I had to do it with propane. For me it was woth the cost Just as a final note, I still have gas range and clothes dryer but my tank guage has not moved since October when I fired up my E-Classic.


----------



## Piker (Jan 26, 2009)

In my experience so far as a gasser dealer, I can tell you that most of the people who buy these boilers are pretty financially savvy... I have yet to have a customer finance an installation.  They have all written checks for as much as 20k.  Now, I can see someone who is financing an installation not having a clue as to what and when their payback is going to be... but the people writing checks?  No way... these people know exactly what they are getting into, and it makes sense to them.

One word about firewood prices... from what most of my customers who have switched from OWB's to gassers have told me, they are using half or less than half of what they used before in firewood.  Some of that has to do with the fact that we replaced hack job piping with more efficient... there are some instances where people are only using about 30 or 40% less... some of that is due to the fact that they can keep their house 75* as opposed to 68 now and still burn less wood.  All things being equal, my experience shows the average wood usage is about half... once people start replacing some of their newer and slightly more efficient OWB's, that number will probably go down.  At any rate, as people switch to the more efficient gassers, you could theoretically increase the population of people burning wood by X2 and keep the price of firewood right where it's at (relative to other energy prices of course, and assuming EVERYONE switched to gasification) going strictly by the laws of supply and demand.  Add to the fact that people who previously couldn't support their OWB habit of using enormous quantities of firewood will be digging up scraps all over the place and getting alot of their wood from what would normally be waste.  As an example, I have a commercial customer who will be heating a semi truck paint booth with a 500,000 BTU Econoburn using only scraps of pallets and crates that they normally have to pay to send to a landfill.  

More simply put... gasifiers help keep the price of wood down... OWB's do not.

As a dealer, I keep thinking I would like to add a line of OWB to what I currently sell to open up the market for me... but I find it difficult to market both gassers and OWB's at the same time simply because the OWB's just don't make any sense to me.  Just my opinion.

cheers


----------



## mwk1000 (Jan 26, 2009)

My case was pretty simple to figure financially, I have a large home with 2 forced air furnaces, I used between 2000 and 2200 gal of propane a year. We pre-buy and I was locked in at 2.19 a gal for a lovely 4800 for one year. It was 1400 a year when we moved in to the home. Given the craziness in fuel costs I fully expected them to be over 2.50 a gallon when we were looking to lock in. I was getting 2.40 quotes -- it was obscene and laughable , I did some rough BTU math and figured I was pretty close to being able to heat my house with electric space heaters for the same cost. I think that alone angered me enough get off the couch and drop the money on the gasifier.

I purchased an eko 60, 500' pex-al-pex, 3 pumps, 1 flat plate & 2 20x20 air HX and the basic startup kit and fittings from cozy spent about 10K with them.

Spent another 500 in making my own 1500 gal tank ( cinder block & edpm )

Spent 700 in chimney and the rest in blackpipe and copper for a total of 12k.

I have a nice little fireplace that I have been feeding 22 face cords of wood I cut split and stack each year ( On top of the propane heat mind you ).

So : 12k/4800 = 2.5 years Even with the price drop in propane I am still less than 4.

Added labor = None. I will be able to heat my home completely on the same wood I sent up the flue of my fireplace. It can go back to what it was supposed to be. Something pretty to look at on occasion. My wood is free, my labor only at least. 

It is zero outside right now. I have 58% in my 1000 Gal Propane tank from my first fill. I had 60% on Dec 1 when I started the EKO for the first time. I am looking forward to my refund from the propane company. It's always nice to get thousands back. Better still is the meter in my head that says the gallon an hour I was burning is stopped. $2.19 an hour back in my pocket. HAAA!  --- Sorry venting again


----------



## atlarge54 (Jan 26, 2009)

mwk1000 said:
			
		

> My case was pretty simple to figure financially, I have a large home with 2 forced air furnaces, I used between 2000 and 2200 gal of propane a year. We pre-buy and I was locked in at 2.19 a gal for a lovely 4800 for one year. It was 1400 a year when we moved in to the home. Given the craziness in fuel costs I fully expected them to be over 2.50 a gallon when we were looking to lock in. I was getting 2.40 quotes -- it was obscene and laughable , I did some rough BTU math and figured I was pretty close to being able to heat my house with electric space heaters for the same cost. I think that alone angered me enough get off the couch and drop the money on the gasifier.
> 
> I purchased an eko 60, 500' pex-al-pex, 3 pumps, 1 flat plate & 2 20x20 air HX and the basic startup kit and fittings from cozy spent about 10K with them.
> 
> ...


 Is that 22 face cords in the fireplace a misprint?


----------



## DaveBP (Jan 26, 2009)

> mwk1000 - 26 January 2009 09:47 AM
> 
> We pre-buy and I was locked in at 2.19 a gal for a lovely 4800 for one year.
> Given the craziness in fuel costs I fully expected them to be over 2.50 a gallon when we were looking to lock in.



I just paid $4.26/gallon here in S. Maine; bulk delivered. Glad I only heat water and cook with it.


----------



## atlarge54 (Jan 26, 2009)

DaveBP said:
			
		

> > mwk1000 - 26 January 2009 09:47 AM
> >
> > We pre-buy and I was locked in at 2.19 a gal for a lovely 4800 for one year.
> > Given the craziness in fuel costs I fully expected them to be over 2.50 a gallon when we were looking to lock in.
> ...


On the NYMEX Feb. propane is $0.72/gal right now. Looks like gouging to me.


----------



## mwk1000 (Jan 26, 2009)

Nope , 22 face on average each year ( unless im wrong on a face, 4x4x18" ? ) . Every 4-5 hours load the stove all winter long. I figured I had to be close to the amount of labor already.   The stack is about 26' long and the logs are 20/24 wide since my fireplace takes 32" logs it worked well. Each year I rebuild the pile to 7-8 feet high and 5 rows.

I actually think the EKO may take less once I get the hang of it. I spent most of my time this fall putting it in so I will run short this year ( and wet ). But next year I will be feeling pretty confident with that much put away dry.

Sorry I meant 4x8x18"


----------



## atlarge54 (Jan 26, 2009)

mwk1000 said:
			
		

> Nope , 22 face on average each year ( unless im wrong on a face, 4x4x18" ? ) . Every 4-5 hours load the stove all winter long. I figured I had to be close to the amount of labor already.   The stack is about 26' long and the logs are 20/24 wide since my fireplace takes 32" logs it worked well. Each year I rebuild the pile to 7-8 feet high and 5 rows.
> 
> I actually think the EKO may take less once I get the hang of it. I spent most of my time this fall putting it in so I will run short this year ( and wet ). But next year I will be feeling pretty confident with that much put away dry.
> 
> Sorry I meant 4x8x18"


Are you burning with an insert or open fireplace? I expect to see a VERY happy report on your new system, since you've already been handling a fair amount of firewood already. I've got an old "junkyard" homemade system, last night I put two big hunks of hardwood on a nice bed of coals and 20 hours later I'm just starting to rebuild the fire with mostly single digit temps. You've got a honkin' big stove and lots of storage, bet you'll love it. I suppose you've got a big generator for electric backup, boilers don't like blackouts.


----------



## mwk1000 (Jan 26, 2009)

I have a nice Fireplace extraordinare 44 like another mentioned it is a wood burning furnace made to look like a fireplace. AKA a grand daddy insert. But I had to keep it going full tilt to keep 1/2 the house warm due to the shape -- and the output still did not cut it. I am already in awe of the EKO, once a day I fire it up, refill after 3-4 hours and let it go till it dies. I actually get to sleep at night. I have a chart I made up for the house based on my heat load telling me how many degrees an hour the tank will drop at the current outside temp. I have been planning the burns around our schedule. First thing in the morning if its really cold and usually 6-7 at night and a refill after 3-4 hours before bed.

The whole house is 68-69 and the bedrooms are 70 for the first time ever between 5-11pm. Feels like Florida to us. We drop it down to 66 at night since we have always slept better with a little cool in the air.

As for the wood, It's hard to say since I am into damp wood now , I just dialed back the blower to 60% , 10mm on primary and 2 turns and the wood consumption is much slower now. I was at 100%, 4 turns, damp wood and always bridging with low temps. With all that said I don't think I would be halfway through my normal stack yet.


----------



## ihookem (Mar 2, 2009)

I will have a very well insulated 2200 sq. ft. ranch and at 15-18k for a woodgun 100 it will never pay for itself. I  can heat this house for 1,500 dollars a year. At 15k I can make 300 dollars @2% interest and pay for Februarys heat bill. By the time I save 15k on my gas bill the woodgun will be worn out. I might do it anyway because my wife claims 73 degrees is cold and can feel a draft.  A Woodgun 100 with hydronic heat will fix the problem, the floor will be 80 degrees instead of 50 degrees. I might just go with the Woodgun with forced air. This will save 4k? Any comments about the Woodgun 100?


----------



## cguida (Mar 2, 2009)

Well, I'm glad somebody realizes that there are circumstances where a 15 thousand dollar installation might NEVER pay for itself.

I made up a (very crude) spreadsheet wherein I could plug various prices and install costs, and get back a payback time in years. With each downward tick in heating oil prices, the payback got longer and longer.  At around $1.25/gallon for heating oil (and an admittedly high price for wood), the payback time suddenly went nagative (!), indicating a payback period of FOREVER. 

1600 gallons of oil at 1.25 vs 10 cord of wood at 200/cord returns a payback period (according to my 'shakey' function) 900+ years.
1600 gallons of oil at 1.24 vs 10 cord of wood at 200/cord returns a payback period of Negative, i.e. FOREVER, as the yearly cost of wood-plus-boiler exceeds the cost of oil.

Now, I wouldn't be the farm on these calculations, but the point is that a 15 thousand dollar wood gas system is no guarentee of a positive return. And the scenarios for the FOREVER payback period are not all that far fetched.

If MuncyBob (King of the Financial Spreadsheet!) will allow me to quote from a PM:
Historical Heating Oil Prices
1999:  $0.872 
2000: $1.177 
2001: $0.982 
2002: $1.04 
2003:$1.17 
2004:$1.57 
2005: $2.01 
2006 $2.12 
2007: $2.96 
2008 $3.27 

Now ask yourself: what was crude oil before the Iraq war?  Answer: about 30 bucks a barrel -- little less.  Crude oil is about 40 now. Meanwhile prices of other major assests are all back to pre-2003 levels -- e.g. stocks, houses, etc.  So I think that maybe $1.24 or less heating oil next year is not at all un-reasonable.

My point:  No guarentee of a positive return on a 15 thousand dollar gasification investment. (Ane we haven't even begun to consider labor time yet.)

So here's the question:  Why am I spending time in the basement measuring footprint and chimney connection for an EKO-Orlanski 60 (Two-Foot Wood!)?  Not entirely rational, but it does seem like a great idea for a not-unreasonable-price.

And there are other options. We can't do much about the price of oil, or the price of wood (except to cut it ourselves).  But we can do something about the price of boilers -- E.G 2.Beans and Jesse with their home-made Seton boilers.  And then there's the example of good old fashioned self-reliance and Russian Enginuity -- the masonry boiler.  These last two could change the balance dramatically in favor or wood.

Stay tuned!


----------



## gorsuchmill (Mar 2, 2009)

Smee - Are those delivered oil prices or Nymex? If the latter, you may need to revise your model a bit. Interesting analysis regardless.

For what it's worth, I burned aprox. 1350 gallons of oil per year for 12 years and switched to a Tarm this past Fall. I'm very pleased with my decision as I'm staying in great shape, the woods are getting cleared of lots of downed wood (thanks to my son) and I don't mind keeping the house warmer. I know burning wood, like oil, has a cost, but there is a different perspective when you can toss a few more logs in the boiler instead of simply watching the oil tank gauge drop.


----------



## Nofossil (Mar 2, 2009)

Looking into the future, I see millions of people in India and China with cars. The price of oil is down now due to a very temporary drop in demand. The supply is limited, and as soon as the world economy picks up you can expect oil to return to $4 per gallon or more. Iraq has very little to do with it. Supply and demand has everything to do with it.

Wood on the other hand is self-replenishing. In my case, I could never burn all the wood that needs to be harvested just to keep my forest healthy.

Making financial decisions based on the idea that oil will be under $2 a gallon is likely pretty short-sighted.


----------



## Hansson (Mar 2, 2009)

The oil price have not drop overe here.We still pay 11-12 SEK /Liter :-(


----------



## tom in maine (Mar 2, 2009)

Interesting analysis. My take on it is this: people piss away money on a lot of stupid stuff(Mongo SUV.s, home theatres, two dishwashers in the kitchen, etc.) , so if someone invests $12K in a Froling boiler and then perhaps another 12K on the balance of the system, they are spending their money on something that is environmentally sound, they are not adding to the carbon load by burning fossil fuels and they are spending their money in the local economy.

If a DIY solution works for someone, that is fine, but there is a lot to say for customer support, too.


----------



## Floydian (Mar 2, 2009)

nofossil said:
			
		

> Looking into the future, I see millions of people in India and China with cars. The price of oil is down now due to a very temporary drop in demand. The supply is limited, and as soon as the world economy picks up you can expect oil to return to $4 per gallon or more. Iraq has very little to do with it. Supply and demand has everything to do with it.
> 
> Wood on the other hand is self-replenishing. In my case, I could never burn all the wood that needs to be harvested just to keep my forest healthy.
> 
> Making financial decisions based on the idea that oil will be under $2 a gallon is likely pretty short-sighted.



I completely agree with this. I'm in a similar situation with more wooded land than I can keep up with. I like the fixed heating cost-my labor. I understand this is not an option for a lot of folks but I would sooner buy wood locally, from someone I know, than support the big boys any more than I have to. U.S. peak oil was very real. Global peak seems inevitable to me.

Personally, I cant wait to get a gasifier-Infloor radiant and DHW with wood from our land. I'm not really looking at payback as much as comfort and efficiency. Its hard to put a price that, as its hard to put a price on oil 2,5, or 10 years from now.

Noah


----------



## muncybob (Mar 2, 2009)

As mentioned, each person's financial scenario will differ depending on their market prices for both fossil fuel and for wood. It seems to me that I will not see oil prices low enough in my lifetime not to justify financially the purchase of a wood boiler. I personally will go with the wood boiler even if it takes me much longer than I would like to just break even. I know with the wood available to me by both taking delivery from somebody or even cutting my own that I probably will keep my house a bit warmer than I do now burning oil and I know I'm not supporting our dependance on foreign oil as much as I used to!  The psychological factor of becoming a bit more self sufficient will be icing on the cake for me. I truly believe we are entering unprecendented times and are about to enter unchartered waters...regardless of how things work out in the near future I want to be sure I will be warm in the winter without breaking the bank!


----------



## DaveBP (Mar 2, 2009)

> The oil price have not drop overe here.We still pay 11-12 SEK /Liter :-(



That's about $5 US per gallon or a little more!


----------



## Mushroom Man (Mar 2, 2009)

We burn 3500 liters per year now with a thermostat never above 64 and at night around 58. Believe me, you get accustomized to it. 
The house has a heavy heat load due to high ceilings (11 ft.) in the basement and we sit atop a very windy hill which is the main reason for the heavy load. 

Next winter our heat load will increase 59% due to expansion of the mushroom growing area. So, assuming this years price of oil @ 1/ liter (yes we pay more here in Canada, even though we export much of it to the USA); I'll pay my rig off in 2.6 years of oil savings. If oil goes to last summer's rate of 1.40 / liter, I'll pay it off from 1.86 years oil savings. 

Naturally, there is a cost to pick up the wood and prepare it. I estimate $30 per year for chainsaw and splitter gas and $30 bucks for diesel for the tractor. The wood otherwise is free and there is more falling naturally than I need.

Some people pay for a place to exercise. Processing wood is healthful and not terribly unpleasant. I prefer it to a treadmill.

Like others here I care about my carbon footprint, hence a gasifier rather than conventional wood burning. 

I also subscribe to the opinion that oil is going much higher in price due to demand from emerging economies and shrinking supply attributable to fewer and fewer new discoveries of economically viable reserves, (the widely held PEAK Oil argument). If that argument is wrong, then my payback analysis will entail a longer period before I payback from oil savings; but it will still pay back faster than most other investments than I have ever made.

For me, the gasser decision was a slam dunk. We might even turn up the thermostat...though we like it cool.


----------



## Piker (Mar 2, 2009)

I think what we have to realize is that different people see the labor involved in firwood gathering and processing from very different perspectives.  To those whose free time is plentiful, the time spent gathering is not even a factor.  To those whose time is of utmost value to them, it's almost heresy to NOT consider every minute spent in the wood heating process. 

The bottom line is... it doesn't really matter.  This is why the market can support such a wide variety of products.  Diversity makes the world go 'round.

cheers


----------



## ihookem (Mar 3, 2009)

Real good points guys. One thing is not mentioned much is the importance of insulation. It seems that almost every house can use more insulation. I see it all the time. We can cut our heat usage by a ton, 20% seems reasonable especially in the inner city. Even new houses should raise the codes a bunch. It just became r-45 or 50 in Wisconsin. Why not go straight to 60 and r-20 in the walls?  If you don't have r-50 plus in your attic you need more. If you  have fiberglass in the attic, especially bats you need to blow in cellulose to fill the cracks. (personal but semi pro  thought )  Blown in fiberglass just seems so light the draft blows through it.  Drapes are huge, caulking your window panes, door weatherstripping, storm windows all make a huge difference.


----------



## ihookem (Mar 3, 2009)

I have also noticed a lot of deals on almost every woodburner stove. My plumber said to me "Yah, oils 1.45 now. Good point, I think they are way too much if the avr. monkey wrench on this sight can make one almost as good as the 6k ones. I hope they go down. I've seen some pretty good deals on firewood too, maybe it's not selling like last year? If oil goes up, so will wood though.  Also, like I said a few posts back, my wife is terribly romantic when she's toasty warm, and with forced air heat that ain't often. The neighbor girl down the road has floor heat and a Kozyburn? owb  and told my wife she loooooves it becuse her feet are warm. Even if it never pays for itself I am sure I will at least break out even money wise, and a warm house after a days work in the middle of winter like today makes life a whole lot nicer.


----------



## tom in maine (Mar 3, 2009)

As great as gasifiers are and I do make a living selling storage systems, one must think seriously about superinsulation.

We live in  1200 square foot house on the coast of Maine. Tonight the wind is whipping and it is cold(about 15F). We heat mostly with a Jotul 100QT, which is their smallest
stove. I was concerned about overheating the house since the walls and roof are R-65 foam. Most nights, we hit 74 and that lingers all night.
We wake up with it being 74 on the second floor after the fire has been out for 8 hours in the winter. The first floor, which has a lot of windows and doors is usually 68 in the morning.

Foam insulation is where money is very well spent.

My problem (believe it or not!) is that the overheating is pushing me to installing a thermal storage system.
I will sneak in a 300 gallon tank in the basement and probably build a small wood gasifier boiler to feed it. Am planning on a solar thermal system for most of the heating, but this is Maine and the sun only shines 40% of the days in December.

BTW, we are through a half cord of wood this winter and I filled the tank with 100 gallons of #2 in September.
I like giving the money to people I know (the wood cutter) instead of sending it overseas. The oil is for heat and hot water which comes from a Toyotomi (OM148) oil fired 
hot water heater that does double duty for heat and hot water.

Probably could've done it a lot easier with a small gas stove that looked like a wood stove, but our DHW load is more than the heating load and LPG is not cheap.
And it ain't wood!


----------



## ihookem (Mar 3, 2009)

Tom in Maine, do you think r65 in a wall helps ? I have heard that after r-20 in the wall it doesn't do anything, and after r-60 in the attic it is a waste. I am asking because I'm getting 3 1/2 " of closed cell foam in my wll next week and I hve 5 1/2 in walls. For a thousand dollars more I can have another 1" of foam put in.


----------



## tom in maine (Mar 4, 2009)

It does help. There are limiting returns, but as fuel costs go up, higher insulation values make sense.

If you plot out heat loss versus R value, I think the point of change is at about R-60. Beyond that there is so little change that there is no merit in
going any further. Newer codes are starting to reflect this.

It is always a an issue of trying to get the insulation into a cavity. Walls are harder to deal with than attics. And there is more buoyancy driven heat loss into the attic, so
this does make a difference.

The beauty of foam is that it is airtight and cuts infiltration while insulating and it is not subject to wind washing.

R-20 in your area, (and mine) and I believe in most other areas of this country, is too little.

That being said, install as much as you can. Use high density foam and fill the cavity.

If you can only get that into a wall cavity, it will still be a lot better than fiberglassing it!


----------



## sweetheat (Mar 4, 2009)

well it's day 2 with no fire in my boiler. I will go tonight and build a fire in the A.M. Top storage tank temps are 153 degrees F. R 15 blue styrofoam 3 inch board behind 2X6 spruce T&G;boards, roof and side walls with cedar shingles, Marvin 1/2' IG/w/argon, and 1/8 glass storm panels. Insulated wood doors/shop built, eastern white cedar shingles  = R7 + 2X6 spruce T&G;= R 11 +, blue styrofoam = R15, + 1/2 inch dead air space = R4  = total of R36, to date I've used 2.75 cords of dry hardwood. Thermostat is at 64 degrees 24/7. With wood consumption this low I think their free. swee  theat


----------



## Nofossil (Mar 4, 2009)

Tom in Maine said:
			
		

> It does help. There are limiting returns, but as fuel costs go up, higher insulation values make sense.
> 
> If you plot out heat loss versus R value, I think the point of change is at about R-60. Beyond that there is so little change that there is no merit in
> going any further. Newer codes are starting to reflect this.



It's been a lot of years since I ran the numbers, but I seem to remeber that at around R-40 int the walls, 90% of my heat loss was through the windows, doors, and infiltration. Doubling the insulation in the walls and ceiling would reduce heat loss by only 5%. For sure, closing the blinds has an enormous effect in my house (Double pane / argon / low-e windows).


----------



## tom in maine (Mar 4, 2009)

You are right, the windows are a big one when you get to that point. And any insulation, including simply closing the shades will give a pretty big bump when you are 
dealing with an R-2 or 3 window.

The numbers keep moving around as fuel costs change. Insulation is a one time buy, while fuel is every year.

I am of the persuasion that any wood handling over a cord is work. A cord or under is a hobby. 
At least for me.


----------



## pybyr (Mar 4, 2009)

Tom in Maine said:
			
		

> The beauty of foam is that it is airtight and cuts infiltration while insulating and it is not subject to wind washing.
> 
> If you can only get that into a wall cavity, it will still be a lot better than fiberglassing it!



Agreed that as much insulation as you can achieve, and as much air-sealing as you can achieve, is good- and that fiberglass is a dud at stopping air infiltration--

but dense-pack cellulose insulates and stops air movement _very_ well, and has the added advantage of being made from a recycled produce, and having less embedded energy/ petrochemical feedstocks than foam.  I'm not saying that foam is bad, just that cellulose deserves serious consideration (each have their place/ best applications) and cellulose can be added into existing construction


----------



## tom in maine (Mar 4, 2009)

Cellulose is a great material. If you can get enough of it in place. It certainly has a place in flat attic ceilings.

AND, if you do a hybrid installation of foam on the outside of the building with cellulose in the walls, you have minimal infiltration
and minimal thermal bridging from your framing and the much lower costs and environmental impacts that cellulose offers.

We used factory second foam insulation in our home (our other business--we use firsts in tanks), so the costs were mitigated and we 
put it to a better use.


----------



## sweetheat (Mar 4, 2009)

only drawback for cellulose is you can't get it wet during the build. If I could fine a cellulose product that would withstand the rigors of construction I'd use it. Until then it's the blue dow styrofoam. Not to highjack this thread but a good gasifier and plenty of insulation, good windows and doors and you'd be on your way to a free heating system. sweetheat ;-)


----------



## bupalos (Mar 4, 2009)

Smee said:
			
		

> Now ask yourself: what was crude oil before the Iraq war?  Answer: about 30 bucks a barrel -- little less.  Crude oil is about 40 now. Meanwhile prices of other major assests are all back to pre-2003 levels -- e.g. stocks, houses, etc.  So I think that maybe $1.24 or less heating oil next year is not at all un-reasonable.



Not unreasonable, no. But it might be just as worthwhile to ask why most other commodities are NOW at (actually generally below) pre-2003 levels while oil isn't. Everyone notices the higher peaks, but no one notices the higher valleys. To me, the fact that oil is not really crashing quite the way it usually does--despite an absolutely historic downturn in everything else-- may suggest we really are seeing peak oil. If this is a cyclical floor for oil, it's about twice as high as the crash floors we have seen in the past. Has OPEC become more effective? Or are they perhaps beginning to run up against some physical limits?

Personally I think energy prices were the major part of the cause of this crash.


----------



## ihookem (Mar 5, 2009)

Dupalos, I agree that if oil would hve stayed  60 bucks a barrel we would be seeing better days. I had 5" of blown in cellulose in my last house with 2x6 studs. I'm building the same house and useing 3 1/2 " of cloed cell foam. I'm sure the foam will be better but the cullulose in the walls is way under rated. I went all over the house the first year and put my hand up to the outside  outlets and I never felt a draft coming through so it's got to be good stuff.


----------



## karri0n (Mar 5, 2009)

This is a great thread. I've been quite interested in Gasifier boilers for quite some time now, but it will be many years before it's something I can look in to. By that time, I'm thinking their technology will have improved even further, and price may have come down. Thanks to all who were willing to share their(somewhat personal) information in this thread.


----------



## cguida (Oct 28, 2009)

Fall 2009 Update:

As to the original question -- Is a 10-15 thousand dollar gasification boiler "worth it"  -- research here continues. I don't want anyone to think I am biased against gasification boilers, and I'd very much like to accumulate some first-hand experience. So I am now the proud owner of a big, green Polish mail-order Basement-Bride-of-Dr. Frankenstein boiler  -- EKO-60.  She ("Oxanna") is hooked up.  ("It's alive, Igor; It's ALIVE!).  She breaths.  She gurgles.  And if you feed her favorite comfort food and treat her just right, she is hot, Hot, HOT.

So now we can begin to answer the $6400 question: can you get through a winter with reasonable effort, convenience, and warmth, on mostly just junk wood and blow-downs?  Or rather, we maybe could answer the question if I actually had the junk wood dry and ready to go.  But I did some big talking awhile back about not buying a boiler till I was 2 years ahead on hard wood. And in fact I do have 2 years of hard wood stacked up.  But while I was doing that work, I neglected the junk wood side of things. So it might be spring before I get much experience with junk wood. 

Meanwhile, this has been an entertaining and informative thread.  Thanks to all who contributed.


----------



## Badfish740 (Oct 28, 2009)

This is an interesting debate.  My wife and I just bought our first home a little over a year ago.  We are currently heating with an ESW add-on and it's working well so far, but even though we're enjoying it for the most part, it uses a lot of wood, produces a lot of smoke (although I'm getting better at reducing that), and it pulls humidity out of the air like nobody's business.  Also, my wife has allergies, so forced air heat is not the ideal situation anyway.  We plan to build our next (and last!) home and energy efficiency is something that I want to build in from the start since initial construction is the cheapest time to do it.  I would like to install radiant floor heat throughout the house with the hot water supplied by a gasification boiler.  Since the mortgage lender and insurance company would likely balk at the idea of wood being the sole source of heat we would likely install the smallest oil boiler possible inline with the gasifier with the intention of only using it during extended periods away from home or if for some reason the gasifier is not working.  It's important to point out that we are hoping to find a 10-15 acre homesite with the intention of doing some subsistence farming.  Hopefully I would be able to cut a fair amount of wood from my own property as well as continue the scrounging I do now.  Anyway, I'll continue to follow this discussion with interest.


----------



## 91220da (Oct 28, 2009)

Quick numbers

GW100  installed 10/2008 with help of plumber friend $12, 500.00 total cost

6 cords purchased to get started cut/split/stacked  4 @ $200 and 2 @ $150 = $1100 

Average oil consumption of 1200 to 1300 gallons per season  (Drafty stone farmhouse) @ $3.00 per gallon = $3600 to $3900 

3900 - 1100 = $2800 saved in oil cost for first season of use.

This year I purchased and scavenged 8 cords to date at a cost of approx. $900

Big expense up front but I do see a  5 to 6 year payback on the installation. 

This year I will be burning more rounds than splits.  Last year the splits vaporized quickly due to the extreeme gasification temps.


----------



## dogwood (Oct 28, 2009)

I love the fact that once our brand new Tarm Solo Innova is hooked up we will no longer be subject to the vagaries of the world energy market to heat our home. Who's to say we won't be paying what Hannson would pay for fuel in the near or far future. I've got seven years before I retire to a fixed income, and don't want to live a life of being fearful about what the energy giants are going to subject us to next price-wise. They are evil people who will take you for everything you are worth if they could. A person can always come up with some wood out in the country, and my labor is at a price that is affordable. You can't put a price on security and self reliance, and at $15,000 it's a bargain. This is America.  We were born to be free. And this includes being free of big oil companies, Middle East sheiks, giant medical insurance companies, Wall Street, and all the rest and few who dominate the world's economy to such a great extent. Come up with the $15,000 somehow and you can kiss some of those bad boys good-bye. And please don't pollute your and our air with an OWB to save a few bucks.  Pay the price, work hard, and live free. 

Mike


----------



## flyingcow (Oct 29, 2009)

Badfish, good plan.
--
dogwood, I've been running my Innova 30 since last jan. Love it. Once you're up and running, don't hesitate to ask me any questions. BUT I've had great luck in dealing with Tarm on any questions I had. Had a pretty good problem that tarm helped me with(control issue). My installer was not easy to get a hold of, and the guys at tarm worked this "truck driver" thru the problem and parts are on the way.
--But this $$$'s spent on the gassifier was worth it, for me. Fuel oil is $2.70 on it's way up. Hardwood was reasonable to buy last winter and i think it'll stay down for a few more months. If so, I'll buy another truck load mid/late winter.


----------



## sdrobertson (Oct 29, 2009)

dogwood said:
			
		

> I love the fact that once our brand new Tarm Solo Innova is hooked up we will no longer be subject to the vagaries of the world energy market to heat our home. Who's to say we won't be paying what Hannson would pay for fuel in the near or far future. I've got seven years before I retire to a fixed income, and don't want to live a life of being fearful about what the energy giants are going to subject us to next price-wise. They are evil people who will take you for everything you are worth if they could. A person can always come up with some wood out in the country, and my labor is at a price that is affordable. You can't put a price on security and self reliance, and at $15,000 it's a bargain. This is America.  We were born to be free. And this includes being free of big oil companies, Middle East sheiks, giant medical insurance companies, Wall Street, and all the rest and few who dominate the world's economy to such a great extent. Come up with the $15,000 somehow and you can kiss some of those bad boys good-bye. And please don't pollute your and our air with an OWB to save a few bucks.  Pay the price, work hard, and live free.
> 
> Mike



Excellent points...Its kinda funny that we as Americans will pay way more money for a vehicle that will last a shorter time period than for a system to heat our homes cheaper.  Its the same way with mattress...We don't want to spend our hard earned cash on something that really isn't used except to sleep on but a good (more expensive) mattress will make life easier.  Still the best country in the world, but we're kinda spoiled.


----------

