# HOLY BLACKSMITH!!  My stove pipe was RED HOT today!!



## forby (Dec 20, 2010)

OMG.... Iv'e never seen that before!!  

My Jotul f600 is on it's 3rd season.  I started the stove this am the same way as always.  I raked the coals even, tossed on some cedar kindling(1x1 inches), added some oak crossways(3x3 inches) and finally another few rows with a big piece on top.  I blew a few times to get it started and as usual, it started slowly.  I left the side door cracked open a bit to keep it going and went u[stairs for my morning coffee.

About 35 minutes later, I smell the familiar smell of a new stove breaking in....  I ran down to find the collar that exits the stove glowing red hot!!  I checked with the laser and it was 1,050 degrees.  The stovetop thermo was 495 and as usual the termo reported up to 900 near the center of the stovetop and it confirmed the accuracy of the stovetop thermo at 495ish.

What the heck?????  I turned the air all the way down and the temps slowly came down.

BTW, i just emptied the ashes before the restart and doubled checked the ashpan door.  I check it EVERYTIME I touch the stove.  Yes, a little paranoid.

The only thing I did differently was to turn on the exhaust fan above the stove to try and draw some heat upstairs quickly.  I have a bi-level home withe the stove downstairs.  Did the high volume exhaust fan keep the draft too slow and cause heat to build up in the collar?  Is it possible to have that happen without smoke rolling out?

Did I damage anything?

Worried now.......


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## forby (Dec 20, 2010)

A shot a quick image...
I enhanced it a little in photoshop.


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## SKIN052 (Dec 20, 2010)

You seem to be a very wise and safety minded wood burner. You have missed a very important safety tip along the way however, never walk away from the stove with the door left open, never I lit my fire and get it going with the door open as well but never walk away from it during that time. You need to get a new start up procedure. I do not expect any damage was caused and really don't think the fan played any part in this other than to help move air. The way you stacked you splits to start the fire seems ideal. Maybe your wood is allot more seasoned this year and will light off much quicker than last year. Stay Safe and happy holidays.


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## forby (Dec 20, 2010)

I left my darn Jack Russell in charge and he didn't bark!!  He was laying next to the stove enjoying the glow!!

When I say cracked open, I mean literally cracked.  I even throw my gloves on the edge of the hearth to give an extra margin of protection.  I guess since I was burning, I never had a start up issue and was becoming comfortable.

I guess I'll be having my morning coffee downstairs for awhile.

I still think that the exhaust may have had something to do with it since the collar was hot, but not the stove.  It was as if the hot gasses were hovering right there.  Even the stovepipe above it was NOT red


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## SKIN052 (Dec 20, 2010)

Never trust a Dog. Maybe I am missing something, are you talking about the blower on your stove or a separate exhaust fan you have installed somewhere? My routine is to rake the coals and add splits just like yourself. Door open a crack to get it going, about 5 minutes. Open air control wide open for another 5 and then down to half and head for my coffee. By the time I am done my coffee and morning routine the stove is roaring hot and I usually add more wood for a long burn and start backing the air down to low.  

I understand what you are saying though. You think you have a good plan and then you got to change it up.

Now have a talk with that mutt of yours, lol.


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## Dune (Dec 20, 2010)

forby said:
			
		

> I left my darn Jack Russell in charge and he didn't bark!!  He was laying next to the stove enjoying the glow!!
> 
> When I say cracked open, I mean literally cracked.  I even throw my gloves on the edge of the hearth to give an extra margin of protection.  I guess since I was burning, I never had a start up issue and was becoming comfortable.
> 
> ...



The stove pipe is very thin. It heats faster than the stove. After some more time, the stove would have turned red too. Parts of it anyway. By then, the stove pipe would have been bright red. Then orange. Then white. Then...

I too give the air a LITTLE boost with the door. While I look at it. With my hand on the door handle. For a minute or two. Imagine what could happen if you had gotten majorly distracted during coffee. Just sayin.


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## forby (Dec 20, 2010)

SKIN052 said:
			
		

> Never trust a Dog. Maybe I am missing something, are you talking about the blower on your stove or a separate exhaust fan you have installed somewhere? My routine is to rake the coals and add splits just like yourself. Door open a crack to get it going, about 5 minutes. Open air control wide open for another 5 and then down to half and head for my coffee. By the time I am done my coffee and morning routine the stove is roaring hot and I usually add more wood for a long burn and start backing the air down to low.
> 
> I understand what you are saying though. You think you have a good plan and then you got to change it up.
> 
> Now have a talk with that mutt of yours, lol.



The exhaust fan is my kitchen stove exhaust.  It's an 1,100CFM monster that will suck the eggs out of the pan  It was only on medium at the time.

BTW, it takes me at least 20 minutes of open door before I can close it.  If i close it after the first 5 minutes, the fire usually goes out immediately!!  Then, I am almost never use less than full air open all the time.  My stove temp has never seen above 575.  I can run the stove with the door open all day and never get above 475.  It will go up after closing the door of course.

My wood is red oak seasoned since July 2008.  Typically about 16-20 on the cheapo meter...

Maybe it was a combo of dryer than usual wood and the exhaust fan causing the hot gases to "hover" in the collar!?!?!?!?


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## Dune (Dec 20, 2010)

Nah. It got too hot because you had too much air, not too little.


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## SKIN052 (Dec 20, 2010)

Sure sounds like you have a problem that you maybe never knew you had. You should be able to dial that thing way down and still have strong flames and a hot stove. You should not have to run wide open. I will agree that the fan may have played a part in this. I think you are in need of an outside air kit (OAK) do you have a new home? Recently upgraded insulation? Next time you lit it up, do not turn on the fan, crack open a window near the stove and see if you are able to get a better flame going with the door closed. Do you have single wall or double wall pipe? Would be very hard to get the double wall to glow.


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## forby (Dec 20, 2010)

Dune said:
			
		

> Nah. It got too hot because you had too much air, not too little.



Actually, I noticed a bit of a different story....  Too much air means a cooler fire because of the volume of air moving thru the wood.  Too little air and the fire can't be supported due to lack of oxygen.  Just the right amount means maximum combustion with minimum of cooling.  Kind of like the bears and the porridge story...

I'm not making this stuff up....  I see it every day.

That said, I'm not busting on Dune, I just think that there are so many factors affecting a stove that we can't apply situation "A" to situation "B".  My stove is rated to burn with both front doors open. Would this cause a red hot collar?  I don't think so.......


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## forby (Dec 20, 2010)

SKIN052 said:
			
		

> Sure sounds like you have a problem that you maybe never knew you had. You should be able to dial that thing way down and still have strong flames and a hot stove. You should not have to run wide open. I will agree that the fan may have played a part in this. I think you are in need of an outside air kit (OAK) do you have a new home? Recently upgraded insulation? Next time you lit it up, do not turn on the fan, crack open a window near the stove and see if you are able to get a better flame going with the door closed. Do you have single wall or double wall pipe? Would be very hard to get the double wall to glow.



My stove was installed by a 2 generation family business.  They have a very good reputation.  They agree that airflow volume can cool or support the fire depending on exactly how much air.  They regularly get more heat and higher temps from closing down the air slightly from full.  I have been running full air in my 22 year old home for three years and no changes to house other that the new exhaust fan in the upstairs kitchen.

If I open a door, I don't seem to get a substantial difference in burn.  Only if the system is ice cold do I need an open door to prevent smoke roll out.  I have found on an ice cold stove, that the more newspaper I use and light in many places, the less smoke I get.  I assume that this is due to the large amount of heat generated quickly to heat the pipe.

The collar is single wall"I think" with a heat guard.  That's probably why the glow stopped at the first vertical section.

I have turned off all air sucking appliances and opened windows and it does not make a difference.  I still need the door open for at least 15 or 20 minutes.  It seems to have gotten a little better with older wood, but not a lot.


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## iceman (Dec 20, 2010)

If our house is tight cracking a window does make a difference you might not see it but it does...
The pressure is my house is so backwards that when everything is running I will get cold air being sucked through my supply duct in my kit, from where my air handler is.. it is sucking air in from the filter as air handlers are not airtight... cracking a window turns off the air coming in 30 ft away from the window... i still have to crack my door sometimes but not nearly.as long... my stove is also.burning  700-800 on the regular where as before was. Struggle to get it over 600 for any long period of time.... some of this is Prolly burning better wood.. but I could never turn my stove all the way down..  now I can..

I don't believe it was your exhaust , because 1100 degrees is going up the chimney unless restricted... you Prolly had a lot of draft at that point and that was just the part of the stove that got the heat because of so much air... I have seen my stove fully engulfed with that "smell" and the front of the insert was only 400 and some change..... but I had walked away and came back when the smell reminded my I had left the door open


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## forby (Dec 20, 2010)

I guess I need to run a few experiments......

I'll repost any results tomorrow or maybe later. Please keep up the generous offers of help.


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## ansehnlich1 (Dec 20, 2010)

you might have been burning off creosote in that stovepipe. 

or you just simply had such a roaring flame going up the pipe that she cooked that pipe to the red.

either way, it was, in my humble opinion, a direct result of the door being open.


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## Mad Tom (Dec 20, 2010)

You left the side door open a crack and went upstairs. As per your post.  To much air. You over fired it.


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## oldspark (Dec 20, 2010)

forby said:
			
		

> I guess I'll be having my morning coffee downstairs for awhile.
> 
> !


 That's what I do a lot of the time.


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## forby (Dec 20, 2010)

Mad Tom said:
			
		

> You left the side door open a crack and went upstairs. As per your post.  To much air. You over fired it.



I've done the same thing for 3 years and never saw my stove over temp.  Stove still wasn't over temp.  Only the connector was???  Is that typical?

Why today and not the few hundred others?  Why is my stove rated for running with the door open?


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## rdust (Dec 20, 2010)

I never leave the stove with the door open.  Of course with my stove as soon as I have flame I can close the door and bypass.  I don't leave the room till I turn the stove down for the first time which happens at 400 or about 10 minutes in.  

As for burning with the door wide open my stove also offers a screen kit for that.  I find the fire is more active with the door just cracked, with it wide open it doesn't exhibit that "roaring" effect.

There seems to be an issue somewhere with the fuel, chimney or stove preventing you to turn the stove down any.  Until you get this worked out I don't think I'd be leaving the stove with the door left open.


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## xman23 (Dec 20, 2010)

+ 1 on the chimney fire. You know the fires you've made in the past, was this any different? The stove top temp will lag the single wall pipe temp a bit, but by half I can't do that with my Jotel. So how have you been cleaning the stove? Mine after a top down brushing ends up with all the material sitting in the bottom of the cast iron 90 at the back of the stove. It's a bit tough getting it out of there, getting my arm above the burn plates and secondary tubes.


Forby, where in NEPA are you? We are in Lackawaxen 

Tom


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## forby (Dec 20, 2010)

xman23 said:
			
		

> + 1 on the chimney fire. You know the fires you've made in the past, was this any different? The stove top temp will lag the single wall pipe temp a bit, but by half I can't do that with my Jotel. So how have you been cleaning the stove? Mine after a top down brushing ends up with all the material sitting in the bottom of the cast iron 90 at the back of the stove. It's a bit tough getting it out of there, getting my arm above the burn plates and secondary tubes.
> 
> 
> Forby, where in NEPA are you? We are in Lackawaxen
> ...


I vacuumed that all out just before winter.  I clean the chimney 2x a year from the bottom up and never got more than a 1/8 to 1/4 cup of fine white/grey powder.

Maybe a tablespoon in the horizontal run.


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## forby (Dec 20, 2010)

xman23 said:
			
		

> Forby, where in NEPA are you? We are in Lackawaxen
> 
> Tom



Wilkes-Barre area (NOT THE CITY)


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## begreen (Dec 20, 2010)

Just a guess here, but perhaps this batch of wood had reached a high outgassing stage a little earlier than anticipated. The additional air allowed secondary combustion to become focused at the flue collar instead of at the manifold? Closing the door and reducing the air supply altered the air balance by shifting it to the secondary manifold. You might check to see if there are small air leaks developing at the flue collar joint. If so, pack some furnace cement in there. 

Could be you are in a section of drier or perhaps less dense oak than normal. Cold weather has increased draft, so it's a good idea to stay nearby the stove until the door is closed. I tend to get involved in other things, so I often carry a kitchen timer with me as a reminder to check on the stove regularly.


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## Jags (Dec 20, 2010)

A cracked open door will create an air "rush" that open doors will not.  Not saying that was the cause of your issue, just saying that open doors is not equal to a cracked door.

Sounds to me like it got away from you a bit.  That collar is going to be the hottest spot on the stove during a start up procedure involving an open door (flames getting sucked up the stack).  Needing the door to be open on startup for 20 min. is cause for some thought.  How tall is your stack? Pipe or tile? Size? When was your wood SPLIT ( I know you gave dates above, but you said cut, not split so I am just fact checking).

A stove dieing after 5 min of start up is problematic.  Constant run at just under full open isn't right either. Requiring 20 min. of cracked open door before it will maintain fire - ain't good.  Sum ting ain't kosher.


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## forby (Dec 20, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Just a guess here, but perhaps this batch of wood had reached a high outgassing stage a little earlier than anticipated. The additional air allowed secondary combustion to become focused at the flue collar instead of at the manifold? Closing the door and reducing the air supply altered the air balance by shifting it to the secondary manifold. You might check to see if there are small air leaks developing at the flue collar joint. If so, pack some furnace cement in there.
> 
> Could be you are in a section of drier or perhaps less dense oak than normal. Cold weather has increased draft, so it's a good idea to stay nearby the stove until the door is closed. I tend to get involved in other things, so I often carry a kitchen timer with me as a reminder to check on the stove regularly.



Good possibility regarding the wood and outgassing.......  The stove was particularly full in the back with small pieces going between the tubes.

If there is one thing I have learned since burning wood, it's that even the color of my underwear will affect how a stove burns!

If I didn't have a stove with a 3 year history of slow starts and such low temps, I would have been there.  I used to do that the first year, but it would take 30 minutes to get up to a temp that would allow me to even close the door!!


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## forby (Dec 20, 2010)

Jags said:
			
		

> A cracked open door will create an air "rush" that open doors will not.  Not saying that was the cause of your issue, just saying that open doors is not equal to a cracked door.
> 
> Sounds to me like it got away from you a bit.  That collar is going to be the hottest spot on the stove during a start up procedure involving an open door (flames getting sucked up the stack).  Needing the door to be open on startup for 20 min. is cause for some thought.  How tall is your stack? Pipe or tile? Size? When was your wood SPLIT ( I know you gave dates above, but you said cut, not split so I am just fact checking).
> 
> A stove dieing after 5 min of start up is problematic.  Constant run at just under full open isn't right either. Requiring 20 min. of cracked open door before it will maintain fire - ain't good.  Sum ting ain't kosher.



The stack is double wall stainless Simpson and is about 20 feet high.  Split the wood between July 2008 and April 2009.


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## begreen (Dec 20, 2010)

forby said:
			
		

> Good possibility regarding the wood and outgassing.......  The stove was particularly full in the back with small pieces going between the tubes.
> 
> If I didn't have a stove with a 3 year history of slow starts and such low temps, I would have been there.  I used to do that the first year, but it would take 30 minutes to get up to a temp that would allow me to even close the door!!



Often outer sapwood is less dense than heartwood. Different splits from the same tree can burn at different rates. 



> If there is one thing I have learned since burning wood, it's that even the color of my underwear will affect how a stove burns!



I thought it was the opposite. The way the stove burns seems to affect the color of some folk's underwear. :lol:


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## Battenkiller (Dec 20, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> forby said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



ROFL!  That's the best come back line I've seen here yet. ;-) 

Forby, sounds like a "Perfect Storm" situation to me.  Maybe drier wood than you're used to using, a fortuitous (or not fortuitous in this case) lay of the load in the box, just the right amount of air coming in the door to create high air velocity (caused by the only slightly cracked door as mentioned by others) but not enough to cool the gases, all leading to a positive feedback loop as increasingly higher flue temps create increasing stronger draft until you have a classic runaway stove on your hands. 

One thing's for sure.  Your flue gases weren't just sitting there "hovering" away.  At close to 2000Âº internal gas temps, they were flying up the chimney faster than that big ol' exhaust fan sucks the air out of your kitchen.


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## woodchip (Dec 20, 2010)

Jags said:
			
		

> A cracked open door will create an air "rush" that open doors will not.  Not saying that was the cause of your issue, just saying that open doors is not equal to a cracked door.



I agree, it's like putting a blower on the flames which will send them out of control. 

We have a rule here, the door may not be left open, the person who opens the door must keep their hand on the handle, if they leave, the door must be left properly shut.


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## fire_man (Dec 20, 2010)

Forby:

When you "cracked" the door and left, was it open less that usual? A door that is only open a little bit tends to increase the velocity of the air blown into the firebox, as opposed to a door open further. The higher velocity air fans the flame faster. I'm just wondering if that's why things went thermo-nuclear this time.

Looks like some others had the same idea before I got this post out....


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## Kenster (Dec 20, 2010)

Forby, you say you always clean the flue from bottom up.  When was the last time you cleaned your cap and screen?   A clogged screen could explain your problems with having to always leave the door open to get a good fire.   Poor draft.


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## Backwoods Savage (Dec 20, 2010)

forby said:
			
		

> OMG.... Iv'e never seen that before!!
> 
> My Jotul f600 is on it's 3rd season.  I started the stove this am the same way as always.  I raked the coals even, tossed on some cedar kindling(1x1 inches), added some oak crossways(3x3 inches) and finally another few rows with a big piece on top.  I blew a few times to get it started and as usual, it started slowly.  *I left the side door cracked open a bit to keep it going and went u[stairs for my morning coffee.*
> 
> ...



Everyone can talk all they want about what happened but the simple thing that happened is in bold in the Quote.

*Nobody should leave a stove door cracked and then leave the room!* Simply put, that is asking for a disaster. I hope this was a wake-up call that you can not tend the stove if you are in another room.


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## firefighterjake (Dec 21, 2010)

Backwoods Savage said:
			
		

> forby said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Agreed . . . a dangerous habit . . . whether it's one time or done frequently.


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## SKIN052 (Dec 21, 2010)

Jags said:
			
		

> A cracked open door will create an air "rush" that open doors will not.  Not saying that was the cause of your issue, just saying that open doors is not equal to a cracked door.
> 
> Sounds to me like it got away from you a bit.  That collar is going to be the hottest spot on the stove during a start up procedure involving an open door (flames getting sucked up the stack).  Needing the door to be open on startup for 20 min. is cause for some thought.  How tall is your stack? Pipe or tile? Size? When was your wood SPLIT ( I know you gave dates above, but you said cut, not split so I am just fact checking).
> 
> A stove dieing after 5 min of start up is problematic.  Constant run at just under full open isn't right either. Requiring 20 min. of cracked open door before it will maintain fire - ain't good.  Sum ting ain't kosher.


Jags hit the nail on the head right there, something is not right. No way in hell should you have to run that stove at full open to maintain a good fire. I don't care who installed it. If everything was good with your system you would have seen more than one red hot flue by now with that method. Heack I have the flue smoking not long ago after 15 -20 minutes on half air. The main problem right now is that you don't seem to think you have any problem. Since you seem comfortable with this then I guess I am the one with the problem. I really don't like hearing about someone doing something wrong and thinking it is just fine.

I hope that I am not coming off as rude or sarcastic, it is hard to convey a message in the right tone sometime on the Internet. If you are happy with your set up, good for you. Just remember in the back of your head, something ain't right.


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## forby (Dec 21, 2010)

Kenster said:
			
		

> Forby, you say you always clean the flue from bottom up.  When was the last time you cleaned your cap and screen?   A clogged screen could explain your problems with having to always leave the door open to get a good fire.   Poor draft.



I clean right up to and into the cap.  It is very visible from my second floor deck and with the aid of a binocular, I can see every edge of the screen.  It is wide open.

The lack of draft issue has been since day one.  I thought drier wood would solve the issue, but it helped just a little.


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## forby (Dec 21, 2010)

SKIN052 said:
			
		

> No way in hell should you have to run that stove at full open to maintain a good fire. I don't care who installed it. If everything was good with your system you would have seen more than one red hot flue by now with that method. Heack I have the flue smoking not long ago after 15 -20 minutes on half air. The main problem right now is that you don't seem to think you have any problem. Since you seem comfortable with this then I guess I am the one with the problem. I really don't like hearing about someone doing something wrong and thinking it is just fine.
> 
> I hope that I am not coming off as rude or sarcastic, it is hard to convey a message in the right tone sometime on the Internet. If you are happy with your set up, good for you. Just remember in the back of your head, something ain't right.



Well Skin052.....  You certainly do come off as a bit rude.

I mean really......  what's wrong with a stove needing to run at full air?  Doesn't that make it sort of "safer" to operate?  If YOU get a smoking flue after 15 minutes, isn't that a danger?  How many people can really "same room" babysit their stoves all of the time???  Is it not reasonable after 3 years to continue with a practice that has been proven safe in the past? Experience is the best teacher- isn't it?

1)My stove heats my house (2,500 sq ft) very well on 6 or so cords a year.  

2)I don't have to check it every 5 minutes to carefully manage a delicate draft that can cause a meltdown if not "just right".

3)I get little or no creosote from my system and burning style. 1/4 cup per year

4)I can leave my mother-in-law in charge when I go to work and she can manage just fine(farm girl).

5)Load it at night and have coals in am.

6)Never overheated "stove"- not once.

OK.... so the single wall collar got to 1,050 once.  Maybe the door was cracked too little this time causing a rush.  Whoever hasn't made a small error has simply yet to do so.  Maybe my high volume exhaust fan caused hot gasses to hang in the collar?  I'm running a few tests to see what was the cause.

I was not looking to be chastised.  I was not looking for a solution to a draft problem that isn't a problem for me.  Actually it's a benefit in that I don't worry about a runaway stove and I'd like to keep it that way.  I can raise my chimney 3 or 4 feet and probably get better draft.  Then I can spend more time watching and worrying about overtemps.....

I was looking for ideas regarding the situation and got some from several members- thank you for the ideas.

I'll let you all know the results of my tests.......


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## SKIN052 (Dec 21, 2010)

First of all, my apologies. If you are fine with the way things are then so be it, I am the one that is wrong. Maybe running a stove wide open is the best way to go.


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## iceman (Dec 21, 2010)

Skin,  when you run it wide open how many splits are in there?  I am guessing maybe 2 or 3?  If you are packing it full and running it wide open without getting some very hot temps (especially your pipe) something seems wrong?  If I let mine run to long the rails and baffle will start glowing red ... the outside of the stove may be 500 or so but when my stove is at 800 or more no inside parts are glowing... point is be careful not to damage your stove.. but again, and not trying to be an @@s but something doesn't seem right .. could you please post pics of your stove and setup ? Some chimney shots would be great too..
It sounds like you are getting some draft as your pipes are clean, so we know its getting hot..
6 cords of wood seems a tad bit high but that would come from burning with the air open as you would consume more...
I am curious to see your test results.....   what happens when you dont run it wide open?


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## forby (Dec 21, 2010)

Iceman, I believe you were addressing me, but mentioned Skin052 by mistake.

I can run one, two or 6-8 splits and run full air.  I usually turn it down because the room is too hot or at night to preserve fuel.  I probably can count on one hand the number of times I turn it down because of high stove temps.  High being close to 600.
Here are the pics you requested.

I don't know why they are off 90 degrees..  Not that way on screen..


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## branchburner (Dec 21, 2010)

Jags said:
			
		

> A cracked open door will create an air "rush" that open doors will not.  Not saying that was the cause of your issue, just saying that open doors is not equal to a cracked door.



This is an important distinction. A cracked-open door can be like leaving the ashpan door open, increasing draft and acting as a bellows to provide extra air that gets the fire (and the flue) super hot. A fully-open door can basically turn the stove into an open fireplace, cooling the fire and the flue. Both are forms of "excess air" but with very different results.

I would never leave a door *cracked* for more than a few minutes, and never leave the room, for fear of overfire. But I could see leaving a door *open* for hours on end (though it would be a waste of heat) without even being in the house, as long as a fireplace screen was in place.

Is this a case of door open, or door cracked? A glowing part with door cracked for over half an hour should come as no surprise to anyone.


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## iceman (Dec 21, 2010)

Looks like this is a basement install? 
is that a 90 then say a maybe 2ft horizontal into another 90?
That's a lotta chimney  to seemingly have a draft issue, but it does seem to be possibly a draft issue .. 
how far do you turn down your stove? how far have you turned it down and what temps did you get? 
is there spark protection on that cap? could it be clogged?
what else is in your basement? dryer, furnace, hot water heater, etc.
it could be your stove just isn't getting enough air...
during your normal operation, as far as the red collar that is simply from leaving door cracked to long ... it was Prolly a vortex trying to get up that chimney and the 90 restricting it because normally it should have been the 90 getting red..
try getting temps off your pipe , running it with so much air that pipe should be hot! if not we def know there is a prob.  somewhere.


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## tcassavaugh (Dec 21, 2010)

sounds like it was just a a little too much draft to me. My jotul really takes off if i leave the ash pan open or leave the door ajar. i normally plop right in front of it if i doo and once it goes "FLAME ON", i close it up and just use the draft control and the damper.....i love Jotul. 

cass


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## Shari (Dec 21, 2010)

forby -

Is this the same 600 you posted about last year that cracked above the ash pan door?  Did Jotul replace the stove?

I'm agreeing with many other posters - a stove should never have to be run at full air all the time - something doesn't sound right.  Is your chimney double wall insulated?

EDIT:  Do you have a slight rise in that horizontal interior chimney section?  I think rules call for 1/4" per foot.

Shari


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## jimbom (Dec 21, 2010)

I am a rookie but I found the secondary air passages on my small Atlanta Stove had been plugged.  Got the thing outside and figured how to get the power washer involved.  Flushed out mud daubers debris.  It made mine run a lot better with the doors closed.  Mine is a cheap little stove that is made of heavy sheet steel.  So it was easy to trouble shoot.  I don't know how intricate these nice cast iron stoves may be.  Maybe something happened in your stove over the summer to change things inside.


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## humpin iron (Dec 21, 2010)

door open= too much air, bad habit unless your gonna sit there.  The install looks fine, extremely similar to 29,983,344,000 others.  But don't listen to anyone here....um gee, does the owners manual reference leaving the door open at all under operation?


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## forby (Dec 21, 2010)

Shari said:
			
		

> forby -
> 
> Is this the same 600 you posted about last year that cracked above the ash pan door?  Did Jotul replace the stove?
> 
> ...



Yes, Jotul replaced it.  The dealer came in and spent the better part of an hour going over it with a flashlight.  He said there was no sign of over firing it, but there was some unusual discoloration on the ashpan gasket near the crack.  He theorized that the gasket may have been installed wrong or the door was made wrong causing air to seep in.  No signs of warpage anywhere.

I'm a little more timid with the new stove and I check the ashpan door handle EVERYTIME I load or adjust the air.

The chimney is Simpson double wall(I think).

Yes, a slight rise.

This has been a slow/cool burner since stove 1 and day 1.  The spark arrestor is clear.  I used to think it was green wood, but  this is 2.5 years of drying now.

When the outside temps got to below zero, I get the hottest burn and need to cut the air due to approaching 600 degrees. I do cut the air daily, but that's because the room is too hot.  At night, I can leave full load of wood and full air and never see temps over 500.

Personally, I don't think these f600's have enough air intake.

Otherwise, I think the chimney could be higher by 3 feet.


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## forby (Dec 21, 2010)

humpin iron said:
			
		

> door open= too much air, bad habit unless your gonna sit there.  The install looks fine, extremely similar to 29,983,344,000 others.  But don't listen to anyone here....um gee, does the owners manual reference leaving the door open at all under operation?



Again............  past practice showed no overheat with door open (3 years).  Isn't that enough?  I can't get hot temps with the door in any position especialy wide open.  That said, I did "crack" the door this time.  I will be more careful to leave the door wider open on start ups.

YES, the stove is rated for doors wide open.  I can even get a screen for it.


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## Shari (Dec 21, 2010)

forby said:
			
		

> Shari said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't know, this stove just doesn't seem to be drafting correctly.  We need to find out if your chimney is insulated.  Tell us how you are storing your firewood.


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## forby (Dec 22, 2010)

UPDATE**********************

I started the stove with just a few coals left early this am. I cross stacked the way I did when I had the problem.  This time I stayed with the stove for the first 10 minutes.  I was able to close the door fairly soon today(10min).

Some of the wood sizzled slightly from the ends and only near the long ends(probably moisture that settled slightly into the wood).

I went upstairs and turned on a few vents such as bathroom and stove.  After 20 minutes more, I was reading some temps which I believe were rising faster than normal.

Stovetop thermometer 475
laser at same location  460-485
laser of top middle  970
laser of connector(part that was red before) 885
laser of stove pipe above connector (1 ft above stove top) 680

Then I looked again.....   WTH.......  I turned off the lights and what did I see.....  a very slightly glowing red connector

The air was of course full on as usual. I turned it down and came to write to all of you...

So I guess it wasn't the door being cracked open the other day that caused it.  It may be due to the excessive amount of exhaust keeping heat in the pipe or it may be drier that I have ever had wood(except for the sizzle).

Tomorrow's experiment will be repeated with the exhaust fans off.......


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## forby (Dec 22, 2010)

20 minutes later.........

So the air was turned down to just below half about 20 minutes ago before I wrote my previous post.

new temps..

stove top thermometer actually rose to 500 and the water is boiling.....
laser of collar is 880
laser of stove top middle is 950

with all lights off it is barely perceptible red glow......  I mean you really have to look hard to see it.

What part of this is normal?

Maybe after 2.5 years I have finally been experiencing dry wood.....


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## rdust (Dec 22, 2010)

forby said:
			
		

> 20 minutes later.........
> 
> So the air was turned down to just below half about 20 minutes ago before I wrote my previous post.
> 
> ...




I'm not familiar with your stove but is 950 in the middle of the stove top an acceptable temp?  That seems hot to me, what is the listed overfire temp of the stove published by the manufacture?  What is the placement difference between the stove top thermometer and the place the laser reading is taken on the stove top?  I'm wondering why there is such a large difference in readings.


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## forby (Dec 22, 2010)

rdust said:
			
		

> forby said:
> 
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The laser reading agrees with the stovetop thermometer roughly.  The stovetop is placed on the top of the stove in a corner as specified by Jotul. I only took laser readings of the top center.  If I recall, the top center would normally get hotter and if 400-600 is the normal operating temp range, I would not be surprised by a reading of 900 for the top center.

I will consult with my dealer..


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## rdust (Dec 22, 2010)

forby said:
			
		

> The laser reading agrees with the stovetop thermometer roughly.  The stovetop is placed on the top of the stove in a corner as specified by Jotul. I only took laser readings of the top center.  If I recall, the top center would normally get hotter and if 400-600 is the normal operating temp range, I would not be surprised by a reading of 900 for the top center.
> 
> I will consult with my dealer..



I always use the hottest point on the stove top for my reading.  I know for my Lopi which is a steel plate stove 800 is the manufactures overfire temp.  I don't care where on the stove top I see that temp, if I do I'll consider an overfire condition.


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## CarbonNeutral (Dec 22, 2010)

Is the baffle in the F600 the same as the F500, in that it can move forward if dislodged by a split - I wonder if there was a gap that was causing flames to be concentrated on the collar, bypassing the route around the baffle. I know I have to push mine back into place every once in a while


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## Jags (Dec 22, 2010)

I'm gonna take a swag here:

Full open (or close to) air is removing the heat from the stove and pumping that into and up the stack.  By slowing that air down (less primary air), you may actually see higher stove temps and lower stack temps.  Go a little further (even less air) and you NOW have control of the stove top temps without high stack temps.  Again - this is just a swag, but I am guessing that your method, even though it seems to work, is a bit counter productive.  You game for a "test" with the stove operation?


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## forby (Dec 22, 2010)

CarbonNeutral said:
			
		

> Is the baffle in the F600 the same as the F500, in that it can move forward if dislodged by a split - I wonder if there was a gap that was causing flames to be concentrated on the collar, bypassing the route around the baffle. I know I have to push mine back into place every once in a while



I'll check on that baffle issue.....


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## forby (Dec 22, 2010)

rdust said:
			
		

> forby said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm going by Jotul instructions and the thermo is placed where they say to place it.  I assume that Jotul expects the center top to be hotter and they are OK with that.  To assume I should use the center reading is counter to the instructions...... Anyone else have this temp variation issue?


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## Shari (Dec 22, 2010)

forby said:
			
		

> UPDATE**********************
> 
> I started the stove with just a few coals left early this am. I cross stacked the way I did when I had the problem.  This time I stayed with the stove for the first 10 minutes.  I was able to close the door fairly soon today(10min).
> 
> ...



How are you storing your wood?  Do you have a moisture meter?  If yes, resplit a split and take a reading from the new split's interior center.

Is you chimney insulated?


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## branchburner (Dec 22, 2010)

I'm going with Jags' swag here:  too much air is concentrating the heat at the stove/flue collar area. Yes, sometimes lower air = higher stove temps and lower stack temps, and took me a while at first to grasp how this worked. But I can see it with my stove very easily. Too much air and I'm pushing good heat into the pipe.


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## Jags (Dec 22, 2010)

branchburner said:
			
		

> I'm going with Jags' swag here:



I was beginning to wonder if everybody had me on their "Ignore" list. :coolsmile:


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## rdust (Dec 22, 2010)

Jags said:
			
		

> I was beginning to wonder if everybody had me on their "Ignore" list. :coolsmile:



Nope I hear you loud and clear, I feel the same way.  Air wide open equals heat going right up the stack causing the chimney/stove collar to get too hot.  

I'd like to hear more about the stove top temps from other users of this stove though.  I would think 900 anywhere on the stove top is bad.


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## branchburner (Dec 22, 2010)

rdust said:
			
		

> forby said:
> 
> 
> 
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Agree, find the hottest point. I used to only check stove top temps, but now after two years I never do. I only watch flue temps and temps on the back of the stove (where my afterburner is). Those spots can push 900F very easily, not the stove top - if I watch the hottest spots, the cooler spots will take care of themselves.


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## oldspark (Dec 22, 2010)

branchburner said:
			
		

> rdust said:
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Where were you when they were beating me up for watching the flue temps last spring, you could have had my back! :lol:


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## Black Jaque Janaviac (Dec 22, 2010)

Forby,

I didn't read through the whole thread, so forgive me if I'm just repeating what someone else may have posted.

You are exactly correct, there is a window for maximum efficiency for hot burns.  Too little air and the fire chokes, too much air will cool the fire.  However, I would guess that there is also a tiny window of airflow that will cause overfires.  That tiny window probably exists just before the point where the airflow begins to cool the fire.

If you think about it there is a difference between cracking the door open just a bit and opening it wide.  You'll even see the difference in how hot the coals glow.  Door wide open will cool the fire.  Door cracked open very likely puts the airflow in that little window where the airflow is enough to maximize heat but not sufficient to cool the fire.

At any rate, it obviously was overfired - that's what overfired is - when the metal parts glow.  While overfiring is not a good practice, it is not always damaging.  Overfiring simply means the iron or steel reach a temp at which it becomes soft and weak.  If the expanse of this glowing area is great enough the metal cannot support its own weigh and will begin to sag.  Sometimes the area of glowing metal is small enough that nothing happens and the stove suffers no ill effects.

To illustrate this - imagine taking a torch to a long iron bar.  If you heat just the tip to glowing and then let it cool - the iron bar will look the same as it did before the heating.  However if the bar is several feet long and you heat it in the very middle, the weight of the bar ends may be enough to cause the bar to bend.  Once it cools the bar will not return to original shape.

As far as why have you been able to get away with this for so many hundreds of times until now?  That's the nature of safety concerns.  Just when you think you can get away with it - you get zapped.  

I suggest getting a coffee maker that has a timer so you can have coffee ready before you start the fire.  Then use that 35 minutes to sip coffee while baby-sitting the stove.


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## branchburner (Dec 22, 2010)

oldspark said:
			
		

> branchburner said:
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> 
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Actually, I think I was one of the guys that appeared to be beating you up. (Really was just telling you to let the stove settle in and cruise before expecting flue temps to drop.) But your threads are one of the reasons I started paying more attention to the flue - never said thank you, so thank you! And jdonna got me to pay attention to the back of the stove, where my type of stove throws big heat and the temps far exceed the stove top. So my new perspective is entirely the result of listening to other forum members - it's a never-ending education here!


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## SKIN052 (Dec 22, 2010)

forby said:
			
		

> 20 minutes later.........
> 
> So the air was turned down to just below half about 20 minutes ago before I wrote my previous post.
> 
> ...


What part is normal is that you are starting to dial the air down to an acceptable level. Once you start to use an EPA stove you should be getting tons of heat out of it with the air turned way down. You have been running the stove incorrectly for a while now and maybe the wood is truly seasoned, which is starting to put you in the right zone. Keep playing with it and you will soon see that you can take the air way down while still maintaining lots of heat.


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## forby (Dec 22, 2010)

BIG Update......

The baffles are warped bad!!

Apparently, the instruction book is wrong!  It clearly says "Once the stove has reached a surface temperature of 400-600 degrees, adjust the primary air control lever as necessary to generate the heat output and burn time desired....   The optimum surface temperature range for the most efficient burn is between 400-600 degrees."

It's a lie.  My stove has never reached 600 degrees according to the temp gauge!!

My dealer told me the air should be adjusted down when the fire is "active".  WTH is really "active"??????  It would be nice if Jotul told me this in the instructions....

WARNING: IF YOU GO BY THE BOOK YOU MAY MELT YOUR STOVE!

I warped by baffles by staying well under 600 degrees.

I'm not happy


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## forby (Dec 22, 2010)

pics....


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## jotulguy (Dec 22, 2010)

forby said:
			
		

> BIG Update......
> 
> The baffles are warped bad!!
> 
> ...


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## begreen (Dec 22, 2010)

First make sure the temp gauge is accurate. Many are not. With that flue collar glowing I strongly suspect the stove top was far over 600F.  From the description, the recent overheating of the stove didn't happen by following instructions. It happened by walking away from the stove with the door open.


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## SKIN052 (Dec 23, 2010)

I hope it can be fixed easily. I have lots more I feel like saying but I am finding it real hard to to choose the right words.


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## rdust (Dec 23, 2010)

forby said:
			
		

> BIG Update......
> 
> The baffles are warped bad!!
> 
> ...




I'm not sure I follow you saying the stove was never over 600 degree's.  You said in a post above the center of the stove top was 970.  That sure is a surface temp over 600!  Either way I hope you get the stove fixed up and get a better burn practice down.  I'd also make sure the chimney is ok, with the outside of the pipe being 680 that is a toasty internal flue temp.       



			
				forby said:
			
		

> Stovetop thermometer 475
> laser at same location  460-485
> *laser of top middle  970*
> laser of connector(part that was red before) 885
> laser of stove pipe above connector (1 ft above stove top) 680


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