# best pellet stove pipe???



## rdubs20 (Aug 26, 2015)

I am going to be installing a harman xxv within the next month and I was wondering if any pipe is better then the next.  I'm just looking for the best pipe for my stove and would I need a 3 or 4 inch pipe.  Also, what is the best way to install it? direct or with some sort of up and out or out and up configuration?


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## Lake Girl (Aug 26, 2015)

Best pipe can mean many things to many people.  Some like selkirk DT as it has an OAK that pulls air in from around the actual inner vent.  I have Bio-Vent which can come with the OAK that can be integrated into the section of pipe that goes through the thimble.  Harman has a thimble that has an OAK integrated into the thimble. Selkirk and Bio-Vent also have standard pellet venting.   There are other makers too...

As to 3 or 4 inch, what configuration will the venting be?  Straight up, straight out, out and up?  Sizing of venting depends on EVL (equivalent vertical length).  1' horizontal = 1; 1' vertical = 0.5; 90 elbow = 5; 45 elbow = 3.  We can help walk you through that if we have more info...  EVL of 15 or larger requires 4" venting.


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## bogieb (Aug 27, 2015)

If you will be running other fuels than pellets, then make sure you get pipe rated for multi-fuel. I use DuraVent PVP series as it is multi-fuel. Have only run pellets thus far, but my stoves are capable of burning almost anything pelletized, so could see myself changing up in the future. That pipe is more expensive than the DuraVent PVL (wood pellets only I believe), which is a perfectly fine pipe for just burning wood pellets. As Lake Girl said, it is a matter of what you will burn, and what features you want that will determine the "best" pipe.

If you have the choice, I would suggest up and out. That way if you lose power, the smoke should easily vent by itself. You will also recapture some of the heat lost out of the exhaust. If you are worried about aesthetics, you could go out and up (which should also vent smoke easily in case of power outage). If you are cramped on spaces, then direct vent would fill your need - as long as the stove install directions indicate it is safe to do so.

But while considering any piping install, you need to look at the configuration of the inside and outside of the house around where you are planning to install. There are clearance issues for doors, windows, corners, walkways, building spacing, eaves and just about anything else. The stove install manual, as well as the pipe manufacture should give you pretty good information on requirements.


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## TimfromMA (Aug 27, 2015)

I like Duravent. It’s a quality product and it’s extensively carried in places like Lowes or Home Depot which makes finding relacement parts easy if it ever became necessary.


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## rdubs20 (Aug 27, 2015)

I am mainly going to be burning pellets but maybe a 50/50 or corn down the road. If the pipe is a lot more then I would scratch that idea.  I would definitely like to install an oak as well.  I would like to do the top vent adapter but I read somewhere that it was only for masonry chimney's.  I really like the look of the 6 inch wood stove pipe vs the 3 inch pellet stove pipe.  Is there anyway that I can still use the top vent kit and simply use with a wall thimble?


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## bogieb (Aug 27, 2015)

Burning corn, from my understanding, creates the most corrosive ash so you definitely would need the PVP (or equivalent in another brand).

I have no knowledge whatsoever on your 6" pipe question. I'll bet Lake Girl can point you in the right direction - either post wise, or specific members that you can PM for help in that area.


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## TimfromMA (Aug 27, 2015)

Just run a 3" liner up inside your existing 6" pipe.


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## Lake Girl (Aug 27, 2015)

Refer to the manual page 9 http://www.hearthnhome.com/downloads/installmanuals/xxv.pdf 

Manual is very specific that the 6" be a sealed seam 6" flue pipe for connection to chimney...  Not sure how that is handled if there is no existing chimney.  May be able to get an adapter for 6" to 4" corn venting to go up and out but that would be a question for the dealer/installer.


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## rdubs20 (Aug 27, 2015)

does the selkirk dt work as well as a separate pipe and separate oak?


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## Don2222 (Aug 27, 2015)

rdubs20 said:


> does the selkirk dt work as well as a separate pipe and separate oak?


I have the Selkirk DT on both my Harmans. It works better than the seperate OAK because it warms and dries the fresh air coming into the burn pot. I find the ash is fluffier and I do a lot less scraping of the burn pot!


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## rdubs20 (Aug 27, 2015)

well that sounds great to me!


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## Lake Girl (Aug 27, 2015)

Don2222 said:


> I have the Selkirk DT on both my Harmans. It works better than the seperate OAK because it warms and dries the fresh air coming into the burn pot. I find the ash is fluffier and I do a lot less scraping of the burn pot!


Did you have OAKs set up before switching to the DT?  It is my understanding that a given volume of air has a denser concentration of molecules when cold and actually yields more oxygen per volume.  Should actually burn better with cold air...


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## Don2222 (Aug 27, 2015)

Lake Girl said:


> Did you have OAKs set up before switching to the DT?  It is my understanding that a given volume of air has a denser concentration of molecules when cold and actually yields more oxygen per volume.  Should actually burn better with cold air...


Cold air with more oxygen only works better feeding internal combustion engines. They are very different than pellet stoves. In a pellet stove cold air takes more energy to warm it up and moisture in the air makes the ash stick together.


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## Lake Girl (Aug 27, 2015)

Cold room air requires more energy to heat but we are talking "combustion chamber" not circulating air.  Combustion is combustion ... Had this discussion with the Hubby last year.  He mentioned a Honeywell study from the 50s or 60s that mentioned cold air improved efficiency of burn on furnaces.  No luck finding the study but haven't looked for a while.


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## TheMightyMoe (Aug 27, 2015)

Lake Girl said:


> Cold room air requires more energy to heat but we are talking "combustion chamber" not circulating air.  Combustion is combustion ... Had this discussion with the Hubby last year.  He mentioned a Honeywell study from the 50s or 60s that mentioned cold air improved efficiency of burn on furnaces.  No luck finding the study but haven't looked for a while.



Ehhh if your stove is already burning effectively, excess 02(Air) is just going out the stack as heat, just like a boiler or furnace.

So if the above statement is true, the cold air is actually cooling down your combustion temperature, which is lost BTUs. For our boilers at work, they want the combustion intake air as hot as possible, because cold air is a BTU loss.

Similar to heating water from the city, if you start with 40 degree that it is going to cost you more than 70 degree water.

How much energy is lost is a whole different story.


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## rdubs20 (Aug 29, 2015)

well I am a little confused...is a regular oak better or is the selkirk dt design better???


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## Lake Girl (Aug 29, 2015)

Either is better than no OAK


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## CleanFire (Aug 29, 2015)

TheMightyMoe said:


> How much energy is lost is a whole different story.



With our forced hot air oil furnace here, the rating is 78% vs. 83% in the manual, or a 5% burn efficiency increase for pre-heated air going into the combustion chamber.


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## TheMightyMoe (Aug 29, 2015)

rdubs20 said:


> well I am a little confused...is a regular oak better or is the selkirk dt design better???



They are both equal.

The benefit of Selkirk is it MIGHT save you some $$$ on pellets due to efficiency gains. Also you don't need to cut a second hole for OAK.

If you have room to cut an OAK, I would just go with the cheaper route. I used Duravent myself.


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## Don2222 (Aug 29, 2015)

CleanFire said:


> With our forced hot air oil furnace here, the rating is 78% vs. 83% in the manual, or a 5% burn efficiency increase for pre-heated air going into the combustion chamber.


Thanks for that info.

I have heard Selkirk DT oak is 10% more efficient but 5% may be more realistic.


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## CleanFire (Aug 30, 2015)

Hi Don, it may well be more, the FHA furnace moves a lot more air vs. a given pellet stove, that has to lower the pre-charge temp. of incoming air which directly relates to combustion efficiency.  Just sounding out here - I like to keep informed, but in the end I'm just another geek roasting pellets to stay warm.. 

I'm in the same boat w/ the new OAK here, been pulling house temp. air into the stove all winter - I know the Ecoteck will need to be re-tuned, how much remains to be seen..  A fair amount, I suspect.

Started working on the automatic FHA vent dampners, the wife thinks I've gone off the deep end..  Schematics, stick figure drawings, and wiring all over the place.  I think she may be right..  I gotta get back outside and do some yard work.


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## rdubs20 (Aug 30, 2015)

Lake Girl said:


> Either is better than no OAK


 That is true


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## rdubs20 (Aug 30, 2015)

how much is the selkirk DT?  And where can I buy it?


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## gfreek (Sep 1, 2015)

Go to http://www.selkirkcorp.com/Selkirk/Product.aspx?id=7428.    Figure out what you need.  It's more expensive than regular pipe. Check local.. You can find parts on Ebay, or do a Google search. Or http://djsonline.com/selkirkventing_pellet&corn.htm  Or http://www.efireplacestore.com/cpf-77406.html..


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## rdubs20 (Sep 2, 2015)

what do you guys recommend, direct vent or up and out?


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## bogieb (Sep 3, 2015)

My vote would be for up and out. Get a better draft that way (usually), which means less chance of smoke in the house in the event of power failure.


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## rdubs20 (Sep 3, 2015)

Are there any other benefits to doing the up and out?  I see just a direct vent is a lot cheaper.  What are the disadvantages of that style?


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## bogieb (Sep 3, 2015)

If you have a power failure, an you aren't hooked to an instant generator or battery backup, smoke may back into the house when the exhaust fan quits (usually thru the door gasket). My old St. Croix would belch a bit of smoke even at a flicker (or in the split second that it took the battery backup to fully engage during an outage) - and it wasn't a true direct vent since it had about 1.5' of rise. My P61a, downstairs, with 5' of rise before exiting the house has never backup any smoke into the house even at a true power outage and without a battery backup. In such instances, having a good draft is your friend.

I personally believe that up and out helps keep some of the heat from just going out with the gasses that are expelled - it warms up the pipe that is running up, and radiates it back into the room. Is it a ton of heat? No, probably not, but you still recover some of it. I wish I had run my main floor stove to go up and out, but am unwilling (at this point) to drill more holes in my wall and plug up the existing holes.

Ultimately it is up to you, as long as the stove's manual says direct vent is an option.


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## Lake Girl (Sep 3, 2015)

With the Elena direct vented, I just get a whisper of smoke (like extinguishing a candle).  I'm thinking it is the type of exhaust motor used ... ebm papst.  But as bogieb said, it depends on the stove and specific venting requirements found in the manual.


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## rdubs20 (Sep 3, 2015)

I'll have to look into the proper ways to vent the harman xxv.  I do like the looks of the up and out but just more money and I like the idea of radiant heat


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## Lake Girl (Sep 3, 2015)

Don't discount the cosmetic looks ... you have to live with it as part of your home decor.  I'm thinking that's why you ended up with the XXV as the looks appealed to you over the other Harmans.


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## rdubs20 (Sep 3, 2015)

well I wanted a P series but my wife loved the looks of the xxv.  She won this time


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## TheMightyMoe (Sep 3, 2015)

rdubs20 said:


> I'll have to look into the proper ways to vent the harman xxv.  I do like the looks of the up and out but just more money and I like the idea of radiant heat



I wouldn't consider the radiant heat the point of piping inside, you pipe inside if you have to, or if it will be cosmetically unappealing outdoors.

The reason you put a riser is just in case of a power outage, so you don't get smoke inside.

Direct Vent may result in smoke indoors if there is a power outage.

Realistically direct vent is easier to install and CLEAN, and for the $$$ you save on pipe, you can buy a decent back UPS.


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## rona (Sep 3, 2015)

If you have reliable electricity that very seldom goes out  I would suggest straight out the back with outside fresh air connected to the stove regardless of how you decide the exh will go.  I have the pipe in a pipe  system going straight out the back and I did get some smoke in the house last year when the power went out. But that only happened twice in 5 years as it is rare we have a power problem. Pellets will sit and smolder a long time so if you have a problem you might pour a glass of water into the pot just to stop the smoldering rather then letting it continue to smoke up the house.


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## gfreek (Sep 4, 2015)

Recommended is up and out.  I have that with Direct Temp, but still get some smoke in house with power outage.  Again power outages should be considered when purchasing a stove.


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## bogieb (Sep 4, 2015)

Another consideration; IF you ever replace the stove with another model or brand, dollars to donuts the exhaust won't line up. then you have to mickey mouse (like I had to for the St. Croix, and will have to for the PP38 - original stove had much higher outlet) for a small jog - a real PITA. If you go up and out, you will be able to get an adjustable piece of pipe to tie in the system.


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## rdubs20 (Sep 4, 2015)

if you direct vent it and you get a new stove and the pipe doesn't match up could you use a flexible liner type piping?


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## Lake Girl (Sep 4, 2015)

Flexible liner is only for use within a masonry chimney typically with an insert.  If the exhaust outlet is at a different height, you would have to adjust by using elbows or by moving the thimble.  Even among the Harman stoves, there is no uniform outlet height ...


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## Former Farmer (Sep 7, 2015)

bogieb said:


> I personally believe that up and out helps keep some of the heat from just going out with the gasses that are expelled - it warms up the pipe that is running up, and radiates it back into the room. Is it a ton of heat? No, probably not, but you still recover some of it.



If you use the Selkirk DT, you won't have any radiant heat from it.  The cold air is brought in through the exterior pipe that surrounds the interior pipe (exhaust).  This is how it preheats the air for combustion.  The longer the pipe run, the more you can preheat the combustion air.


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## bogieb (Sep 8, 2015)

Former Farmer said:


> If you use the Selkirk DT, you won't have any radiant heat from it.  The cold air is brought in through the exterior pipe that surrounds the interior pipe (exhaust).  This is how it preheats the air for combustion.  The longer the pipe run, the more you can preheat the combustion air.


That is a good point - I was going with my experience using Duravent with a separate OAK.


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## rdubs20 (Sep 17, 2015)

would there be any problems with venting the stove on the westward side of the house?


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## Former Farmer (Sep 18, 2015)

Depends upon how much wind would get at it and type of vent cap.   Also depends on how it is vented from the stove.  If it goes straight out from stove, I think that this would be more of a problem than going up and out.


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## Lake Girl (Sep 18, 2015)

What is your prevailing wind during the winter?  Farmer is right to ask on how it will be vented ... Did you ever decide?


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## rdubs20 (Sep 19, 2015)

I am going up and out with selkirk dt.  I will be going up about 6 ft then out through the wall


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## Lake Girl (Sep 19, 2015)

Prevailing winter winds?  The turbo cap we have seems to do the trick though...

Can you use the top vent system with the DT?


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## rdubs20 (Sep 21, 2015)

thats a good question.  I probably would skip the top vent adapter and simply go with the up and out because I have room to do that and I would mean buying one less part form harman


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## Lake Girl (Sep 21, 2015)

Reason I was wondering is that the rear hook-up with the DT will keep the OAK out of sight.  With the top vent adapter, likely won't be able to hide that connection as it would be above the stove....


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## rdubs20 (Sep 21, 2015)

thats a good point.  I found the dt up and out kit from a few different places.  Shopchimney has it for about half the cost of anyplace else.  It looks like the same kits.  Am I missing anything?  What do you guys think?  I believe all I would need to add is the vertical length dt pipe.  Here are the 2 links are they the same?
http://www.shopchimney.com/selkirk-...zontal-for-pellet-and-corn-installations.html
http://www.stoveking.com/1604680-selkirk-4dt-vphkb-horz-term-kit-upout-p-27180.html


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## rdubs20 (Sep 23, 2015)

Are there any problems with using adjustable vertical rise instead of just a 5-6 foot piece?


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## twodogs02 (Sep 23, 2015)

rdubs20 said:


> well I wanted a P series but my wife loved the looks of the xxv.  She won this time


Same here,  went with the top vent option through the roof (log home) but that eliminates the integrated vent and Oak from Selkirk.  Top vent option will run you $300-$450 depending on your dealers mark up.


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