# unburnt fuel, overflowing burn pot, high flames



## briansol (Jan 23, 2011)

Weird, my stove is acting up again...........


I've been fighting with it for about a month.  I can't run the stove for more than 24 hours on setting 1, 12 on setting2.  forget 3/4/5.

The burn pot just fills up and ends up over flowing into the ash pan causing a massive fire (my entire ash pan catches due to raw fuel being in it.


I'm using quality pellets... oakies and cubex.  both do the same thing.

I cleaned the ENTIRE stove AGAIN yesterday, including the pipe.  fired it on at 7pm and by noon today there were several cups of raw pellets in the ash pan and the burn pot was full running on setting 2.

to the best of my knowledge, my stove does NOT have an air adjuster.
http://www.lennoxhearthproducts.com...earth_Winslow_Insert_Installation_775229M.pdf
page 26

The manual says it does, but it simply is NOT there on my stove.  I had a friend come over and look for it as well, and he couldn't find it either (he also burns).  The graphic is lame at best and i have nothing that looks anything like that on my stove.



I know something is wrong, because just start up completely fogs my glass over with smog and within an hour, the top is black.  12 hours later, you can barely see in it.
Flames are VERY high.  At start up, they go all the way up.  On setting 1, they are half way up the back wall of the stove.  

I checked the roof and snow is not blocking the exhaust vent pipe.

According tot he manual, I need more combustion air.  I do not have an outside air kit, but am using 4" pipe to go up my chineny 1 full story, and about 1/2 story for the roof pitch to where the chimmeny comes out.



So, what do you guys think?  I need more air, right?


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 23, 2011)

briansol said:
			
		

> Weird, my stove is acting up again...........
> 
> 
> I've been fighting with it for about a month.  I can't run the stove for more than 24 hours on setting 1, 12 on setting2.  forget 3/4/5.
> ...




Also according to the manual the draft adjuster is factory set at fully open.

A lack of combustion air means there is not enough air coming through the burn pot .

This can actually be because of a restricted intake (including damper that is closed too much) or any other source of intake air that bypasses the burn pot (including a bad door gasket, in fact bad gaskets anywhere, warped burn pot or burn pot liner, plugged burn pot liner holes).   Also excessive restriction in the venting such as a blocked termination cap can result in not enough air to be able to flow through the system.  Also plugged exhaust paths in the stove.


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## briansol (Jan 23, 2011)

I had the stove pro-installed, so they may have adjusted anything without me knowing about it.  I'm going to have to unplug everything and pull it out and spin it around and get a better look at the back end instead of trying to squeeze my head in the side of the fireplace with a flash light.  Tomorrow though..  COLDEST night in 10 years coming up tonight it seems. -10 they are saying


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## Salty (Jan 23, 2011)

the two times this has happened to my st croix insert it's been a bad versa grate motor. Not sure if your stove has anything like that but take a look anyways.


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## imacman (Jan 23, 2011)

briansol said:
			
		

> I had the stove pro-installed, so they may have adjusted anything without me knowing about it.  I'm going to have to unplug everything and pull it out and spin it around and get a better look at the back end instead of trying to squeeze my head in the side of the fireplace with a flash light.  Tomorrow though..  COLDEST night in 10 years coming up tonight it seems. -10 they are saying



Does the stove have an OAK?


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## briansol (Jan 23, 2011)

Manual has nothing about a versa grate motor.

No outside air kit.   

There's a 2" pipe sticking out the back that goes into the fireplace (i have an insert remember) and that's it.


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## imacman (Jan 23, 2011)

briansol said:
			
		

> ..... (i have an insert remember).....



That means nothing.....an insert can have an OAK too.

Anyway, my thought was that maybe the snow had plugged-up the OAK inlet, and choked the air supply....happened to me during the last blizzard.


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## tgordo49 (Jan 24, 2011)

How's that stove work, mechanically/pellet-feed-wise? Sounds to me like a huge overfeed caused by a stuck-open feed door or slider or an auger that won't shut off (bad or bent microswitch?)


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 24, 2011)

tgordo49 said:
			
		

> How's that stove work, mechanically/pellet-feed-wise? Sounds to me like a huge overfeed caused by a stuck-open feed door or slider or an auger that won't shut off (bad or bent microswitch?)



The feed auger on the OP's unit is timed.  So long on so long off.

Lack of combustion air through the burn pot would look like an overfeed, the usual failure mode for auger systems is to fail not moving.

Usually a failure in the always moving state would get noticed when the stove is first started not after it had been operating.


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## tgordo49 (Jan 24, 2011)

SmokeyTheBear said:
			
		

> tgordo49 said:
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Yeah, I'm with you; but for THAT volume of unburned pellets?? I don't know what else to think.
Dead mouse in the air intake damper???


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 24, 2011)

tgordo49 said:
			
		

> SmokeyTheBear said:
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12 hours on burn rate 2 can be a heck of a lot of pellets.   Been there done that.


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## SXIPro (Jan 24, 2011)

Do those stoves have exhaust sensing probes? Maybe your is dirty or busted and it is cranking out pellets to try to get up to temperature??


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 24, 2011)

SXIPro said:
			
		

> Do those stoves have exhaust sensing probes? Maybe your is dirty or busted and it is cranking out pellets to try to get up to temperature??



Nope, they are simple dragons.


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## SXIPro (Jan 24, 2011)

SmokeyTheBear said:
			
		

> SXIPro said:
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Ahh, when the ESP croaked on my Harman it drove me nuts.


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## poppymike (Jan 25, 2011)

Can you adjust the feed to the auger? I have a Quadra fire with L-M-High settings. I had it burning great on med and high but after 7or8 hours on low I would have to shut it down and clean it out and the
burn pot would be filling up with partial burnt pellets. I closed the feed gate to it's lowest setting and it took care of the problem for me.
Just a thought,
Mike


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## kofkorn (Jan 25, 2011)

While I have a different stove, I had a similar issue.  I was having to play with the air settings continually to keep the pellets from building up.  It was manageable until one night when all of a sudden the whole glass went pitch black and pellets fell out the door when it was opened.  Ended up that the cap completely blocked up with caked ash due to condensation.  I had just cleaned the entire system one month previously. 

When the air goes downhill, it goes fast.   I would really look for any potential hidden restrictions.  If you can, adapt a leaf blower to your 4" pipe and try cleaning it that way.  It should pull out whatever is blocking your airflow.

Good Luck!


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## briansol (Jan 25, 2011)

I don't have independent controls, and that's the one thing i really hate about this stove.  I have 1-5, and thats it.  that controls feed rate, blower speeds, etc all in one.  feed rate 1 works ok, but it's not cutting it heat wise in this 0-degree weather we're having.  Moving to '2' causes the overflow issue.   I haven't attempted to run 3/4/5 basically since i got it.  
It sucks.   It's my first stove, so i'm dealing with my poor research and letting myself get hosed by a crap sales man.  Hopefully i can get a better unit in a few years when I have the money.

The auger is running normal.  It's not the issue.     The pellets simply aren't burning correctly.  I basically have a burn pot full of clinkers in a few hours and it just overflows a few hours later.  Tomorrow it's supposed to be 35 out (which is 30* more than it is today) so i'm planning to shut it down and pull the whole unit out of the fireplace again and try to find that air adjuster that the manual says does exist.

My pipe is ok.  I unhooked it and shook the hell out of it and not much came out.   I also stuck a brush up it.    I lit some newspaper into it and went outside and could see the smoke from it coming out of the cap, so i don't think the exhaust is clogged in any way.  It's the intake air that isn't working correctly.

As far as i can tell, the air intake is just a small black porn on the back of the stove.  it's connected to nothing (just takes in room air, or in my case, in the fireplace air).  The surround isn't air tight by any means, so it should be using the room air as intake.


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## littlesmokey (Jan 25, 2011)

I am not familiar with your stove, so I can not tell you how to fix it, but I can tell you as other have what is wrong. Your burn pot is starved for combustion air. No air...No burn...

Things that can cause range from dirty exhaust system blocking the movement of air. Dirty baffles and heat exchangers. Dirty burn pot with crud built up and blocked air holes. Could be a failing combustion blower, or one that is full of soot. It could be the burn pot is not properly seated or you have an air leak that is by-passing the burn pot. 

If it were my stove, I would strip it down and clean everything completely. Make sure all access panels, ash pans, and connections are solid and sealed. Brush out the exhaust from top to the burn pot in the stove. Pull the blowers and make sure they are working and that the gaskets are whole. Then I would fire it up and see what happens and adjust to increase the air supply. That information and procedure will have to come from someone else.

Just this week someone on another thread swore they were clean and ready to go only to realize they had allowed a door to their ash pan was not properly seated,,,, Problem solved, embarrassment still working through the system.


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## briansol (Jan 25, 2011)

I found the AIR adjuster!   low and behold, it was on the BACK of the firebox behind a metal overhang flap.   Basically, i couldn't see it until i brought the whole unit out of the fireplace.

It was set full shut and the bolt wasn't even hand tight, so it could have been sliding around from day 1.

Opened it wide, tightened it down.


Cleaned everything again while i was in there.


Now, i'm fighting with the damn 3-4" adpater on the exhaust pipe.  Took a break for dinner.    Will finish up after dinner and fire it up and see what happens.   Full close to full open should make a big difference.  ugh.  :X

USER ERROR sucks.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 25, 2011)

Best to take ones time when working on a stove.


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## briansol (Jan 26, 2011)

All back together and fired it up.  I immediately noticed more yellow instead of orange/red flames, and the flame height is like it should be.

I'm going to give it an hour or so on 1 to settle in, then i'm cranking it up to 3 for the over night.   If i don't have a overflowing mess in the morning, i'd say it's fixed 

Thanks for helping to steer me in the right direction.


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## briansol (Jan 26, 2011)

18 hours burning now and it's still fine in the burn pot.

But, now i have smoke-smell in the house issues.

I woke up this morning with a wicked headache and the whole house smells of smoke.

I can't visually see any smoke escaping from anywhere.

Would the draft opening cause the smoke smell?   or should i be focusing on the exhaust?   I think i'm going to run out to the local store and grab some of that pipe sealer (hi temp silicone) just to be safe, but it was never 'glued' from the stock installation either and i never had this problem.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 26, 2011)

Focus on the exhaust where you pulled things apart.

Be sure to get some fresh air.


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## briansol (Jan 27, 2011)

got some 500* silicone and sealed all my pipe connection joints.   Should take about an hour to cure it says, and then i'm firing it up again.

I also adjusted the draft down a hair from wide open, as the heat offered seemed quite a bit less than before when it was full-closed.   I'll try to limit the air just a bit to maybe add just a bit longer of a burn.


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## imacman (Jan 27, 2011)

briansol said:
			
		

> .......I also adjusted the draft down a hair from wide open, as the heat offered seemed quite a bit less than before when it was full-closed.   I'll try to limit the air just a bit to maybe add just a bit longer of a burn.



Having the air draft open all the way may also be sending the air through the stove too fast, and sending a lot of the heat right up the exhaust......heat exchanger just can't pull the heat out fast enough.


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## stoveguy2esw (Jan 27, 2011)

exhaust release in a direct vent stove MUST be from the exhaust blower connection through the pipes , a leak anywhere "upstream" towards the fire would suck air in making for a bad burn but not for leakage out as the stove operates under negative presure, you are on the right track with the damper, you want to slowly adjust it closed to find the "sweet spot" where you have adequate combustion air and do not load up but are still capturing the max amount of heat. stack velocity can rob heat but makes for a pretty burn, you have to hit that happy medium to get optimal performance


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## briansol (Jan 27, 2011)

I got the pipes siliconed up now and with the draft back a nudge, it seems to be good about 4 hours into this burn test.   I may push the draft in a bit more tomorrow to see what it does.  I already noticed the glass got dirty fast tonight, so i may already bee too closed from ideal.


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## bugzme (Jan 27, 2011)

briansol said:
			
		

> 18 hours burning now and it's still fine in the burn pot.
> 
> But, now i have smoke-smell in the house issues.
> 
> ...



Wow sounds like a lucky escape, you dont have detectors for air quality installed ??


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## briansol (Jan 27, 2011)

I have like 8 smoke detectors and 2 CO detectors and none of them went off.  The CO's read 0 the whole time.   I don't have any of those high tech digital expensive things that tell me anything more.

Keep in mind, I have an insert, and while certainly not air tight, the exhaust is IN the fireplace area and the smoke's natural leek is to climb the chimney.  Although capped, i too doubt that is an air-tight seal.  

I do have a very sensitive nose, though.  The joys of being an ex-smoker :X   My buddy who rents my spare room didn't even notice it.


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## littlesmokey (Jan 27, 2011)

briansol said:
			
		

> I have like 8 smoke detectors and 2 CO detectors and none of them went off.  The CO's read 0 the whole time.   I don't have any of those high tech digital expensive things that tell me anything more.
> 
> Keep in mind, I have an insert, and while certainly not air tight, the exhaust is IN the fireplace area and the smoke's natural leek is to climb the chimney.  Although capped, i too doubt that is an air-tight seal.
> 
> I do have a very sensitive nose, though.  The joys of being an ex-smoker :X   My buddy who rents my spare room didn't even notice it.



Think 2what your poor dog and cat went through. :blank:


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## briansol (Jan 27, 2011)

no pets... they make me sneeze


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