# Learning the new Englander Madison



## Silenced38 (Dec 9, 2014)

(I wrote this i a very aggravated state. Im sure the troubles im having are mine and not the stoves. I dont want this to be taken as Englander Wood Stove fault. They make good well liked stoves and have very good customer service.)

Well been burning the Madison about a month now. Last nite could hear cresote fallin thru the pipe. So let it burn out. 
Came home and took the pipe apart and it had about 1/2 inch of cresote all around it. Not just the brown fakey soot but hard glazed cresote.
In 5 years with the cheap cast iron boxwood, burning green wood because i didnt know any better, i never had hard glazed cresote.
Then to top that while tring to get the fiber boards out that were stuck. One broke in half. 
( insert many explitives here)
The stove is hard to get to temp. Takes an hour to reach 450. And my wood reads 18% with mm. Ill be calling englander tomorrow. Not happy.


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## NHcpa (Dec 9, 2014)

A lot of posts complaining of wood stove performance and if not chimney, must be the fuel source (ie wood).  Despite what your mm reads, try Eco/Bio bricks or something similar.  You will also read where the newer stoves are way too fussy on fuel (must be dry to get real performance).


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## bholler (Dec 9, 2014)

i don't know the stove so i cant comment on specific issues with them but you started by complaining that your stove runs to hot now you cant get it hot enough.  I am a little confused.  And box woods run really hot because they are so leaky because of that they burn relatively clean but you couldn't get me to light a fire in one in my house no matter what


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## realstihl (Dec 9, 2014)

Man I know the feeling about not being happy with the stove purchase. I went through that last year about this time. Hang in there, you'll figure it out.


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## BeardedJon (Dec 9, 2014)

I'm not happy to be experiencing the same issue you are,  but my buildup didn't seem to be as bad. 

I'm not going to give up on the stove though as part of the problem I am having is getting my wife and I used to the stove. Once we are doing better on our end I'd like to think our Madison will be doing better as well.


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## bholler (Dec 9, 2014)

Inexperience bad wood or bad chimney setup are the normal culprits.  But occasionally it is the stove so keep posting info we might be able to help you guys


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## Silenced38 (Dec 9, 2014)

Once it gets to 450 then it takes off. Ive learned that thats ok.  But its slow to get to 450.  
You know how computers should have breathalizers  before you can email. I need an angeralizer before i can post. The broken fiber board was the straw that stroked the camels sack today


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## bholler (Dec 9, 2014)

how are you testing your wood with your mm.  It really sounds like wet wood to me.  Also what is your chimney setup? And by the way anyone who has worked on stoves for long has broken a baffle board or 2 it happens.  Like i said i don't know the stove so i cant tell you any tricks about pulling the baffle


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## Mag Craft (Dec 9, 2014)

How do you get a 1/2" of creosote in just one month.   That stove must have been blowing smoke like a freight train.  Have you ever looked outside to see if it is clean or smoking.

I know I was outside the other day and I look up at the pipe from my wood stove and see smoke pouring out of it.
I quickly go inside the house to find the wife loaded wood in the stove on coals that were only hot enough to make it smolder but not take off and burn.


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## begreen (Dec 9, 2014)

There's still a very good chance the wood is not fully seasoned and the moisture meter is being used incorrectly or it's defective. Sluggish starts and heavy creosote are strong indicators of unseasoned wood. The wood starts drying out after a while (stove top passes 450F) and then burns better.

The Madison will never burn like the boxwood stove. Get a box or a garbage can full of dry construction cutoffs from a job site. Split the 2x6's in half. Start the fire with them and burn the 2x4's whole. Once the fire gets going well mix your wood in with them, maybe 50/50. See if the stove works a lot better.


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## Silenced38 (Dec 9, 2014)

17' from top of stove to cap. 6' of single wall. Test on a fresh split face. Oak hickory and pine. 
I start with about 15 2x2 pine splits burn with door crackec for 30mins and 350. Then add hardwood and an additonal 20 to30 mins to get to 450 then tyrn down and it climbs from there


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## Silenced38 (Dec 9, 2014)

Im sure the fault is mine not the stoves
Stll learning i hope


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## bholler (Dec 9, 2014)

That seems way to long to get to temp.  Is it a straight shot up going to insulated chimney after the single wall?  And all 6"?


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## realstihl (Dec 9, 2014)

Get the pipe cleaned up. That will help with the draw of chimney.


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## Silenced38 (Dec 9, 2014)

No there are 2 30 degree bends. All the cresote was in the single wall pipe. Just soot in the triple wall


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## bholler (Dec 9, 2014)

Is it all 6" and is the triple wall insulated or air cooled?.  2 30s shouldn't cause that much trouble And is there a testing procedure for you mm to confirm that it is working correctly?  How long has your wood been cut and split?


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## begreen (Dec 9, 2014)

Is there a stack robber (Magic Heat) on this flue?


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## Ropelie (Dec 9, 2014)

In have the same stove and definitely notice when i have some wet wood. Moisture meter will be here soon so then I can tell before.


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## webby3650 (Dec 9, 2014)

Glazed creosote is caused by 1 thing. Well, maybe 2.


Silenced38 said:


> 17' from top of stove to cap. 6' of single wall. Test on a fresh split face. Oak hickory and pine.
> I start with about 15 2x2 pine splits burn with door crackec for 30mins and 350. Then add hardwood and an additonal 20 to30 mins to get to 450 then tyrn down and it climbs from there


If I left my door cracked for 30 minutes, we would have a serious situation! It really sounds like the wood to me. I know you think it's dry, how long has it been split and stacked?


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## Grisu (Dec 9, 2014)

Has the wood been brought to room temp first before measuring the moisture content? 


Silenced38 said:


> I start with about 15 2x2 pine splits burn with door crackec for 30mins and 350. Then add hardwood and an additonal 20 to30 mins to get to 450 then tyrn down and it climbs from there



Try closing the door once the pine is nicely burning. The stove should get up to temp much faster than operating it with an open door like a fireplace. Once that has burned down a bit, spread out the coals, put your wood on top and let it ignite. Close door, char the wood for a few minutes, then start closing the air in stages. Maybe a quarter until the flames start to move slowly, wait a few minutes for the fire to gain strength, then close by another quarter etc. Secondaries in the top of the firebox should take over and temp should continue to climb.


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## Silenced38 (Dec 9, 2014)

The wood was standing dead and has ccs for a little over a year. 
Nothing in the stove pipe. 
I even added an OAK
I've thought th mms maybe wrong.


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## tarzan (Dec 9, 2014)

Pine been C/S/S for a year also?


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## Silenced38 (Dec 9, 2014)

tarzan said:


> Pine been C/S/S for a year also?


Pine 8 months ccs


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## tarzan (Dec 9, 2014)

I think you may have two problems. Number one is the wood. The type of creosite you describe is caused by unseasoned wood. Number two is your draft. 15 pieces of 8 month old 2"x2" pieces of pine should be ashes within 30 minutes of running with the door cracked, or at least lit off the glazed creosite in your single wall pipe.


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## Silenced38 (Dec 9, 2014)

Grisu said:


> Has the wood been brought to room temp first before measuring the moisture content?
> 
> 
> Try closing the door once the pine is nicely burning. The stove should get up to temp much faster than operating it with an open door like a fireplace. Once that has burned down a bit, spread out the coals, put your wood on top and let it ignite. Close door, char the wood for a few minutes, then start closing the air in stages. Maybe a quarter until the flames start to move slowly, wait a few minutes for the fire to gain strength, then close by another quarter etc. Secondaries in the top of the firebox should take over and temp should continue to climb.


It was not room temp.  If I close the door before 350 it climbs even slower. 
I operate as you have described but it is slow to climb to 450. After it passes past 450 I can shut the air down and the secondaries lite and all is good


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## Silenced38 (Dec 9, 2014)

According to infrared thermometer even when burning hot 450 to 550 the stove pipe near the ceiling is reading 160ish near the top of the stove pipe is 250ish


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## branchburner (Dec 9, 2014)

Silenced38 said:


> The wood was standing dead and has ccs for a little over a year.



I mostly burn maple, ash, poplar and cherry... but I also burn plenty of oak, hickory and pine. My experience with oak and hickory is that even dead they can take a long time to cure, and I now always try to give them two years after splitting/stacking. 

Pine (eastern white) is a different story... it will season pretty quickly, but if not covered it seems really prone to soaking up moisture. So I've had bad experiences with all three varieties if I'm not careful. I don't have a mm, but my stove tells me in no uncertain terms when my wood is sub-par.

But even so, I don;t think your wood should be giving you THAT much trouble. Has it been under cover?

Obviously being a new user with a new EPA stove you don't have a basis to compare, other than to know things will be very different than how they worked with the box stove. But if you have to crack the door and it takes that long to get up to temp, something is very wrong. More than the wood it sounds to me like something is compromising your draft, but it could be a combination. Could be the stove, too.

I would focus less on what the temps are and see if you can tweak your technique and/or wood selection to get a clean burn with secondaries, meaning no (or very little) smoke coming out the stack. If you are smoke-free, you will be relatively creosote-free. Keep experimenting, and re-check your flue setup for anything that would be killing the draft.


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## Hoozie (Dec 9, 2014)

I guess you could always weigh some wood before and after drying it in your oven to get a true look at how much moisture is in it.  

But it does sound like the wood isn't up to par :-/

FWIW, my wood this year is pine that was stacked outside for 6ish months (very warm and dry here), MM reads ~8%, and I can tell some splits just weren't done cooking yet...


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## branchburner (Dec 9, 2014)

Out of curiosity, does your chimney follow the 3-2-10 rule?

http://www.fireplacesnow.com/tentwo.asp


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## Silenced38 (Dec 9, 2014)

branchburner said:


> Out of curiosity, does your chimney follow the 3-2-10 rule?
> 
> http://www.fireplacesnow.com/tentwo.asp


Yes. I was reading here for months before i moved the chimney to its current location. And i wanted every thing to be correct. So i followed the information that i learned here.


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## RopeS (Dec 9, 2014)

I have been watching this thread since it started, and as I am also a Madison owner, I'll chime in.  I am overall pretty happy with the Madison, as I finally seem to have gotten the trick of using this thing.  In fact after seeing this, decided to do a little time study on the reload for my overnight burn.  I have a lot of data and times, but it's going to be tomorrow before I post it all, as I have to get off to bed.  What I will say, is that this is a LOT more sensitive to dry wood than I thought.  That and that I don't think the AAS works anymore (stovetop has gotten 600-650 without tripping it), but I just use it as a regular (manual) air adjustment now anyway, seems to be more reliable that way.  Anyway, good night all, I'll have lots of data/times/temps/info tomorrow.


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## DougA (Dec 10, 2014)

How long was the wood standing dead?  In our area wood that was been standing for over a year starts to rot and the first few inches of the outer layer (not the bark) is next to worthless.  Just a suggestion.


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## Woody Stover (Dec 10, 2014)

webby3650 said:


> If I left my door cracked for 30 minutes, we would have a serious situation!


15 2x2 Pines?? Even if they were wet, my tee would glowing in 30 min, I think. Somethin ain't right...


DougA said:


> How long was the wood standing dead?  In our area wood that was been standing for over a year starts to rot and the first few inches of the outer layer (not the bark) is next to worthless


It's a long way from ON to SE OK. Standing dead wood shouldn't punk too badly, but with Oak the sapwood can still punk on standing trees. Dead-standing Oak (dead several years) takes 2 yrs split and stacked here, and you can't split big or it's 3 yrs. Standing dead 10 yrs, _maybe_ it would be getting dry in the trunk, after the sapwood rots off completely. Oak sapwood _will_ absorb moisture if splits are left uncovered. Bring several splits inside, get them to room temp (not baking next to the stove,) then re-split and test.


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## tarzan (Dec 10, 2014)

Maybe a good idea to pick up a bundle of the kiln dried stuff to try. This would establish a baseline to work from.


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## Jags (Dec 10, 2014)

Starting a stove with a cracked open door for 30 minutes should result in a blaze.  If it doesn't it is either the fuel quality and/or the draft.  It really can't get much more straight forwards than that.

A cracked door bypasses all of the stoves controls - so you can pretty much take the stove out of the equation.  At that point it is nothing more than a box holding fuel.

Fuel or draft or both - or I'll eat Tarzan's leopard print onesy.


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## tarzan (Dec 10, 2014)

Actualy Tarzan is the name of my African Grey Parrot. An easy one to remember since he is often squaulking his own name


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## Ram 1500 with an axe... (Dec 10, 2014)

Personally, I would lay off the pine, but that's just me, get it cleaned and inspected ASAP....worth the money in your case....start with smaller pieces of wood and tons of kindling and fire starter like super cedars or fat wood.....


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## Silenced38 (Dec 10, 2014)

Unfortunately they dont sell any kind of pressed wood blocks within 100 miles of my area. But they do sell bags of kiln dried hickory blocks for wood smokers. As soon as i get my fiber board replaced ill try a bag of those. 
Now of the things ive noticed 1 is the pine burns way better than the hardwood  and 2nd the stove either has to be super hot or in the coal stage before i can open the door without smoke pouring out.


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## tarzan (Dec 10, 2014)

In many areas you can find small bundles of kiln dried cord wood at Tractor Supply, Wal Mart, and even gas stations.

These would be best, if you can find them.


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## spirilis (Dec 10, 2014)

Silenced38 said:


> Unfortunately they dont sell any kind of pressed wood blocks within 100 miles of my area. But they do sell bags of kiln dried hickory blocks for wood smokers. As soon as i get my fiber board replaced ill try a bag of those.
> Now of the things ive noticed 1 is the pine burns way better than the hardwood  and 2nd the stove either has to be super hot or in the coal stage before i can open the door without smoke pouring out.


Sounds like draft to me when you say that.  How's the house?  Well sealed, any substantial leaks in the ceiling/attic that could make the "house act as a better chimney than the chimney"?  Outdoor air available?  Tried cracking a window or door when getting it going?

As a really rough experiment to keep the stack hotter, try wrapping the stovepipe in aluminum foil (= radiant heat barrier, keeping more of the heat inside).  Definitely clean the pipe BEFORE you do this .... or else there's a good chance it'll torch off that creosote :D

Tried top-down fires?


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## farmboy05 (Dec 10, 2014)

One thing I've noticed from just starting to burn this year; I'll leave the door open until I have a good blaze going. At this point my stove top isn't reading much but my flue temp (double wall with probe) will be at or above 200. Then after I close the door my stove top temp will come up quickly. Maybe you're waiting to long to close your door? It'll usually die back pretty good (sometimes almost to a smolder) but it usually comes back strong. Until the door is closed, it seams like all the heat is just going up the chimney and not into the stove.


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## Silenced38 (Dec 10, 2014)

Cant get a hold of customer support. Really busy i guess. Can i cut a piece of 1/2" concrete board and lay on top of the broken fiber board, until i can get a replacement fiber board. So i can still use the stove? 
Ill assume the MM is reading low ,ill add 2 more foot of triple wall on top and ill buy a bag of the kiln dried smoker wood. Is there anything else?


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## mellow (Dec 10, 2014)

Did it not have a ceramic blanket on top of the fiberboard when you got it?  Some stoves have that and some dont, if you can find that local it would be better, sometimes it is called Kaowool at kiln shops.

If you are to try concrete board on top of the fiber board I would go with 1/4".


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## Jags (Dec 10, 2014)

No to cement board.  Is the original simply broke into two or is it a disaster?  If simply broke you can still use it.  Just place it as close to "normal" as you can get it.


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## Silenced38 (Dec 10, 2014)

Jags said:


> No to cement board.  Is the original simply broke into two or is it a disaster?  If simply broke you can still use it.  Just place it as close to "normal" as you can get it.


Ok. It pulled in two and a small piece fell out


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## Jags (Dec 10, 2014)

Silenced38 said:


> Ok. It pulled in two and a small piece fell out



For a short term solution, I wouldn't be afraid of running that (with the broke board in place).  Get your new board ordered up and replace when it comes in.


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## branchburner (Dec 10, 2014)

Silenced38 said:


> a bag of the kiln dried smoker wood. Is there anything else?



Since that could get expensive for more than just one test load, you might look for some dry hardwood pallets, lumber scraps, or dry dead branch wood, too. Just don't go over-board (no pun intended) and overfire the stove.

But because of your smoke spillage and need to keep the door cracked so long, I still think you have a draft problem as well. It just doesn't add up to somewhat unseasoned wood alone.

Make sure you get that pipe clean, because with a thick layer of creosote in there you could have draft reduction, in addition to what you may already have. From your earlier thread, it seems to me you were too conservative in temps, and closing back the air, probably causing that buildup.

As I mentioned earlier, try to observe the smoke coming from the stack... have you been able to get sustained, smoke-free burns?


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## begreen (Dec 10, 2014)

Also keep a check on the cap screen. If it plugs even only 50% you will have poor draft regardless of how clean the chimney is.


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## Silenced38 (Dec 10, 2014)

Jags said:


> For a short term solution, I wouldn't be afraid of running that (with the broke board in place).  Get your new board ordered up and replace when it comes in.


Ok.


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## branchburner (Dec 10, 2014)

One more question: you seemed to get a long, clean burn with secondaries a while back, but did the stove change it's performance as far as drafting, or ability to get up to temp, when you added the OAK? Just wondering if that was a factor... should have made things better, not worse.


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## Silenced38 (Dec 10, 2014)

branchburner said:


> Since that could get expensive for more than just one test load, you might look for some dry hardwood pallets, lumber scraps, or dry dead branch wood, too. Just don't go over-board (no pun intended) and overfire the stove.
> 
> But because of your smoke spillage and need to keep the door cracked so long, I still think you have a draft problem as well. It just doesn't add up to somewhat unseasoned wood alone.
> 
> ...


Yes. Once it gets over 450 and secondaries lit it burns smoke free. I have gotten up at nite and put wood in and gotten tired of standing there wait for it to catch. Just closed the door and went back to bed.


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## mellow (Dec 10, 2014)

Silenced38 said:


> I have gotten up at nite and put wood in and gotten tired of standing there wait for it to catch. Just closed the door and went back to bed.



That explains the creosote buildup.


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## Silenced38 (Dec 10, 2014)

branchburner said:


> One more question: you seemed to get a long, clean burn with secondaries a while back, but did the stove change it's performance as far as drafting, or ability to get up to temp, when you added the OAK? Just wondering if that was a factor... should have made things better, not worse.


I can still get a long clean burn but it takes awhile to get going. Mabe the wood i had at first was really drier?


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## Silenced38 (Dec 10, 2014)

begreen said:


> Also keep a check on the cap screen. If it plugs even only 50% you will have poor draft regardless of how clean the chimney is.


Ok ill have to get up there to add pipe anyway. 
As far as adding pipe. Is 2' enough or go 4'? I was trying to keep it as low as posible for cleaning. When on the roof its at eye level now. 
Can you have too much pipe?


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## Silenced38 (Dec 10, 2014)

I have been watching and none of the wood hisses or sizzles


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## branchburner (Dec 10, 2014)

Silenced38 said:


> I can still get a long clean burn but it takes awhile to get going. Mabe the wood i had at first was really drier?



Yes, but if your worsening ability to keep the fire going started exactly when you installed the OAK, maybe the OAK is related. Did you notice any other changes right around that time, like more smoke spillage or less secondary burning?


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## Ram 1500 with an axe... (Dec 10, 2014)

Sorry to say that poor wood selection and operator error is what's going on here.....start with burning 101 and a clean flue and you will be on your way, lower your expectations and respect the beast, it will love you back.....gl


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## tarzan (Dec 10, 2014)

Silenced38 said:


> Ok ill have to get up there to add pipe anyway.
> As far as adding pipe. Is 2' enough or go 4'? I was trying to keep it as low as posible for cleaning. When on the roof its at eye level now.
> Can you have too much pipe?



Do you have the pipe?

Would probably try two ft first as this could make quite a difference and still keep it easy to clean. Also, don't know your setup but you may require additional bracing if you add 4'


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## Silenced38 (Dec 10, 2014)

tarzan said:


> Do you have the pipe?
> 
> Would probably try two ft first as this could make quite a difference and still keep it easy to clean. Also, don't know your setup but you may require additional bracing if you add 4'


No. Ill have to buy the pipe. Ill also have to add a brace down to the roof.


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## firefighterjake (Dec 10, 2014)

tarzan said:


> Actualy Tarzan is the name of my African Grey Parrot. An easy one to remember since he is often squaulking his own name



Does he wear a leopard print onesy?


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## Silenced38 (Dec 10, 2014)

spirilis said:


> Sounds like draft to me when you say that.  How's the house?  Well sealed, any substantial leaks in the ceiling/attic that could make the "house act as a better chimney than the chimney"?  Outdoor air available?  Tried cracking a window or door when getting it going?
> 
> As a really rough experiment to keep the stack hotter, try wrapping the stovepipe in aluminum foil (= radiant heat barrier, keeping more of the heat inside).  Definitely clean the pipe BEFORE you do this .... or else there's a good chance it'll torch off that creosote :D
> 
> Tried top-down fires?


The house is fairly tight. I was having a definite neg pressure issue before i added the OAK. Especially when the drier was running. 
Mabe thats still part of the problem. Neg pressure when i open the door is over riding the draw of the flue? If its really hot say 550 or more then i can open the door without a problem.


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## Jags (Dec 10, 2014)

Silenced38 said:


> If its really hot say 550 or more then i can open the door without a problem.



For the record, 550 would be well within its normal operating temps.  It wouldn't be considered "really hot".


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## spirilis (Dec 10, 2014)

Silenced38 said:


> The house is fairly tight. I was having a definite neg pressure issue before i added the OAK. Especially when the drier was running.
> Mabe thats still part of the problem. Neg pressure when i open the door is over riding the draw of the flue? If its really hot say 550 or more then i can open the door without a problem.


Huh, sounds marginal.  I get issues in my house when it's not super cold outside, the dryer is running, and maybe 1 or more bathroom fans (or the kitchen hood)... but those problems go away by the time I'm >200F stovetop temp.  My house isn't super tight in the basement though.

OAK has been installed though, so one would expect that should help.  Is it attached directly to the stove, or is it terminating "near" the stove?  Would be interesting to pull it off and see how much air is rushing through there with the stove cold I guess... and then with the stove running.


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## Silenced38 (Dec 10, 2014)

Jags said:


> For the record, 550 would be well within its normal operating temps.  It wouldn't be considered "really hot".


Right. It just seems really hot to me. We determined here that it is ok up to 700 for short times.


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## begreen (Dec 10, 2014)

Silenced38 said:


> The house is fairly tight. I was having a definite neg pressure issue before i added the OAK. Especially when the drier was running.
> Mabe thats still part of the problem. Neg pressure when i open the door is over riding the draw of the flue? If its really hot say 550 or more then i can open the door without a problem.


Have you tried leaving a nearby window open 1/2" to see if that improves starting or reduces smoke spill?


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## Silenced38 (Dec 10, 2014)

I did before but not since the oak was installed. But i will.


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## spirilis (Dec 10, 2014)

Also what kind of outside temps are we talking here?


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## Woody Stover (Dec 10, 2014)

Silenced38 said:


> Unfortunately they dont sell any kind of pressed wood blocks within 100 miles of my area. But they do sell bags of kiln dried hickory blocks for wood smokers.
> Now of the things ive noticed 1 is the pine burns way better than the hardwood  and 2nd the stove either has to be super hot or in the coal stage before i can open the door without smoke pouring out.


I wouldn't assume any of the "kiln-dried" wood is really dry; I've seen gas station Oak that was sopping wet, wouldn't burn worth a crap. I can tell by how heavy the bundles or splits are weather it is reasonably dry. I _would _trust pallet wood to be pretty dry, and you can tell just by looking at a pallet if it is new or weathered. Assuming your stack is tall enough (how tall is it now?,) the lack of draft is probably caused by lack of heat when trying to get that wet Oak burning. I doesn't have to be bubbling water out the ends; Just a bit of moisture is enough to really kill the burn. If your wood is 18% or less and you toss a split on a hot coal bed, it will be burning on a couple sides within a minute or two. The fact that the Pine is burning and drafting better is telltale. Hope you don't have a chimney fire before you can get that 1/2" of glazed creosote outta there.


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## Silenced38 (Dec 10, 2014)

spirilis said:


> Also what kind of outside temps are we talking here?


Its getting in the mid to low 30s at nite. Mid to upper 40s when i get home to light the stove. 
But i have the same results in the morning when it low 30s. Lot of time i dont have a fire in morning because dont have time to mess with it.


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## Silenced38 (Dec 10, 2014)

Woody Stover said:


> I wouldn't assume any of the "kiln-dried" wood is really dry; I've seen gas station Oak that was sopping wet, wouldn't burn worth a crap. I can tell by how heavy the bundles or splits are weather it is reasonably dry. I _would _trust pallet wood to be pretty dry, and you can tell just by looking at a pallet if it is new or weathered. Assuming your stack is tall enough (how tall is it now?,) the lack of draft is probably caused by lack of heat when trying to get that wet Oak burning. I doesn't have to be bubbling water out the ends; Just a bit of moisture is enough to really kill the burn. If your wood is 18% or less and you toss a split on a hot coal bed, it will be burning on a couple sides within a minute or two. The fact that the Pine is burning and drafting better is telltale. Hope you don't have a chimney fire before you can get that 1/2" of glazed creosote outta there.


17, from topof stove to the cap


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## Silenced38 (Dec 10, 2014)

Im gona finish cleaning the pipe and put it back together tonite. Then go and find the splits that the mm says are the driest. Split and test every piece until i get a load of the driest that i have. And see what that does. 
Itll be this weekend before i can add another piece of pipe


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## Charles1981 (Dec 10, 2014)

Draft will definitely be affected if you are trying to relight a fire and it is in the 40's outsides..

But you definitely have to wait until your wood catches fire before closing it down otherwise you just created a creosote factory.  

You can't leave the front door cracked when reloading and get good flamage and draft? That definitely indicates poor draft even with wet wood.

Additional chimney may help with draft, maybe not.  Definitely try some 2x4 from the lumber store - non treated, and see how they fire up on a hot bed of coals...But again draft is difficult if it really is still 40 degrees outside.


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## Silenced38 (Dec 10, 2014)

I


Charles1981 said:


> Draft will definitely be affected if you are trying to relight a fire and it is in the 40's outsides..
> 
> But you definitely have to wait until your wood catches fire before closing it down otherwise you just created a creosote factory.
> 
> ...


 i understand that. But im pretty far south. Low 30s to upper 40s are most winter days. Right now at 4pm its 55 and will be 36 by 10 pm. 
Several here convinced me that a cat stove was the way i should go. But it was unatainable this year. I have twins gratuating and going to college intge fall. Ones to be a Radioligist the other a Graphic Design. 
Thanks to everyone for the help. Im try to learn new tricks. Ill put a 12 hour anger to post restriction on myself in the future.


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## begreen (Dec 10, 2014)

It's possible that the Madison will turn out to be a stove needing a stronger draft that some. It sounds like you have covered most of the bases. Adding more pipe and maybe trying a couple bundles of store bought wood are about the only recourse left. I would add at least a 3 ft section of chimney with a roof brace attached at the 5 ft level on the pipe.


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## Silenced38 (Dec 10, 2014)

begreen said:


> It's possible that the Madison will turn out to be a stove needing a stronger draft that some. It sounds like you have covered most of the bases. Adding more pipe and maybe trying a couple bundles of store bought wood are about the only recourse left. I would add at least a 3 ft section of chimney with a roof brace attached at the 5 ft level on the pipe.


Ok. Ill go with 4'. But whats the chances of lighting hit it. That far above the house. Doesnt get that cold here. But hellasus lighting storms it the spring.


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## begreen (Dec 10, 2014)

There's no way I can answer that question. Can't tell you what the chances are of tornadoes either. Ask the neighbors about lightning strikes on their houses.


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## husky345 vermont resolute (Dec 10, 2014)

Mag Craft said:


> How do you get a 1/2" of creosote in just one month.   That stove must have been blowing smoke like a freight train.  Have you ever looked outside to see if it is clean or smoking.
> 
> I know I was outside the other day and I look up at the pipe from my wood stove and see smoke pouring out of it.
> I quickly go inside the house to find the wife loaded wood in the stove on coals that were only hot enough to make it smolder but not take off and burn.


My gf does the same thing. They don't understand that u need a healthy bed of coals before closing the damper


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## DougA (Dec 10, 2014)

Captain Lightning says that 4' will not make any difference.


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## Silenced38 (Dec 10, 2014)

begreen said:


> There's no way I can answer that question. Can't tell you what the chances are of tornadoes either. Ask the neighbors about lightning strikes on their houses.


We are in Oklahoma. A few years ago i watched a tornado go outside my bedroom window. 
I dug around and found some hickory that was reading 14 - 16%   Just lite a half load.  Well see


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## kennyp2339 (Dec 10, 2014)

14-16% after it was just re-split again right?


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## Silenced38 (Dec 10, 2014)

kennyp2339 said:


> 14-16% after it was just re-split again right?


Yes


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## Silenced38 (Dec 10, 2014)

30 min in 300*


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## Silenced38 (Dec 10, 2014)

45 mins in 375 
Havent opened the door since i closed it at 30 mins in. Smoke rolling out the chimney.


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## Silenced38 (Dec 10, 2014)

Well it stalled at 375 now dropping. Ill have to crack the door to get going again.


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## tarzan (Dec 10, 2014)

Will smoke roll out if you open the door now?


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## kennyp2339 (Dec 10, 2014)

I looked up the weather in your area.. right now its 50 deg with 66% humidity, you might have draft resistance issues. Where you live do you have inversion problems..ie lots of foggy mornings?


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## Silenced38 (Dec 10, 2014)

tarzan said:


> Will smoke roll out if you open the door now?


Yes


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## Silenced38 (Dec 10, 2014)

kennyp2339 said:


> I looked up the weather in your area.. right now its 50 deg with 66% humidity, you might have draft resistance issues. Where you live do you have inversion problems..ie lots of foggy mornings?


Thermo outside reads 40. I do live between the Walnut and Rich Mountains.


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## kennyp2339 (Dec 10, 2014)

hmm, adds a different element, Im stumped, unless there is a plate or clog where the air comes into your stove. I personally don't think its your chimney or wood based on what you described in earlier posts.


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## begreen (Dec 10, 2014)

Silenced38 said:


> Thermo outside reads 40. I do live between the Walnut and Rich Mountains.


Could be location requires more chimney to build draft. But I would check the chimney cap screen is the first candidate for checking. Once it starts clogging the best stove will get sluggish.


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## Woody Stover (Dec 10, 2014)

Silenced38 said:


> I have twins gratuating and going to college intge fall. Ones to be a Radioligist the other a Graphic Design.


 Can you convince one to switch their major to thermodynamics? 


> Thanks to everyone for the help. Im try to learn new tricks. Ill put a 12 hour anger to post restriction on myself in the future.


Good to see that you're using this as a character-building opportunity. 



begreen said:


> It's possible that the Madison will turn out to be a stove needing a stronger draft that some


You'd think 17' would be plenty but I like your theory, maybe a picky stove in combination with warm outside temps... It averages 10 * warmer there than here, but I can burn at 50+ degrees on a rear-vented 16' stack since my stoves breath pretty easy, have small side-load doors and bypasses so smoke is less likely to roll out. If you think about it, having no bypass is like having couple of extra 90* elbows. Certainly 38's draft will improve as we get into the heart of the heating season and temps fall.


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## Silenced38 (Dec 10, 2014)

This weekend ill stick a 4' section of pipe on top and see what happens.


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## RopeS (Dec 10, 2014)

Ok so here is my promised time study.  I have a Madison, with 5'2" of double wall up to ceiling, then class A from there, 10' of it.  I have no problems with smoke pouring out of the stove when it is open, unless it's a VERY windy day, and on a cold start. 


This is yesterday evenings burn and then some info from this morning when I got up. This is loading 6 4-6" splits, so 2/3 full firebox, avg % moisture ~20

10:44pm- 150 degree stovetop, some hot coals that I raked forward and loaded up the stove and used bellows to blow on coals for 3 minutes, door all the way open..
10:49pm- 147 stovetop, good amount of flames, especialy between wood and fiber board.  Shut door to just cracked open.
10:52pm- 153 stovetop, secondaries going strong, most of wood covered in flames.
10:55pm- 175 stovetop and what moisture that was coming from end of splits is drying.
10:56pm- 205 stovetop, Shut door all the way-wood flames slow/die, secondaries almost completely take over.
10:59pm- 280/350 stovetop, (Left/Right as looking at stove)
11:01pm- 350/435 stovetop, very active secondaries at this point, I close air down 50%
11:03pm- 425/500 stovetop
11:06pm- 552/520 stovetop- I shut air all the way, only secondaries now, stack temp 300 at stove/base, 230 at ceiling (outside IR reading, double wall pipe)
11:08pm- 540/540 stovetop
11:11pm- 487/508 stovetop, firebox has  went black/all flames/secondaries gone, temps dropping, I reopen air all the way.
11:13pm- 443/443 stovetop, whole firebox suddenly erupts in massive flames.
11:16pm- 550/585 stovetop
11:16pm- 575/616 stovetop (yes, same minute as previous measurement) Closed air again.
11:17pm- 628/650 stovetop, no flames from wood, only on top-secondaries going like crazy. Stack temp 341 at base, 237 at ceiling.
11:22pm- 575/600 stovetop, medium secondaries only.
11:27pm- 500/509 stovetop, it has reached was I consider 'cruising secondary action'
11:38pm- 580/560 stovetop, still cruising nicely
11:51pm- 580/592 stovetop, cruising great, stack temp 265 base, 213 at ceiling
12:09am- 640/580 stovetop, cruising
12:13am- 591/560 stovetop, great cruising, secondaries only still, Time for bed, goodnight!


This morning:
6:20am- 230/226 stovetop, just hot coals in the stove, rake forward and reload, about same amount of wood as last night. Flames start right up on wood, leave door all the way open.
6:30am- 264 stovetop, fire going great, so I shut door to only cracked open.
6:32am- 375/383 stovetop (Left/Right as looking at stove), I now close door fully air 100% open.
6:41am- 536/645 stovetop, close air all the way.
6:46am- 571/528 stovetop, fire has gone out again, I open air 100%
6:48am- 626/580 stovetop, firebox has suddenly been engulfed in flames again, temps rising, I close air all the way and know she will level off and cruise from there while I'm at work.





So there it is, all temps measured with IR gun, and this is now my standard procedure for the Madison.  I don't think the AAS works anymore, I just adjust manually.
It does take longer to get going from a cold box, so I try to always reload between 150-250 stovetop as it's easier.  The weird part about it to me is that as mentioned up top, the fire always dies out after I cut air all the way the first time, then I reopen air and 1-2 mins later its engulfed, and I can shut the air down all the way again after that and it'll cruise till it runs out of wood.  Not sure why that is.  Only for a few mins after reload is there any visible smoke from my chimney, this stove seems to burn very cleanly.  I did have issues a little bit ago with getting stove up to temp, but that was with wood that was probably around 25%, give or take.  This stove loves DRY wood.  Any questions, feel free to ask.  Thanks and I hope this helps other Madison owners.  Overall I am pretty happy with the stove so far, it was definitely in my budget which was important to me.


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## branchburner (Dec 10, 2014)

RopeS said:


> 11:11pm- 487/508 stovetop, firebox has  went black/all flames/secondaries gone, temps dropping, I reopen air all the way.
> 
> The weird part about it to me is that as mentioned up top, the fire always dies out after I cut air all the way the first time, then I reopen air and 1-2 mins later its engulfed, and I can shut the air down



When I shut my air, I always do it in stages: 100, 75, 50, 25%. If I shut it to 0% from full open, I can kill the secondaries, and get backpuffs. My stove is a different burn technology, but many do the same with other stoves, cutting back incrementally.

BTW, after 11:11 above, I didn't see where you shut the air back down. I assume just a minute or two later. Did I miss that somewhere, or did you?


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## RopeS (Dec 11, 2014)

branchburner said:


> When I shut my air, I always do it in stages: 100, 75, 50, 25%. If I shut it to 0% from full open, I can kill the secondaries, and get backpuffs. My stove is a different burn technology, but many do the same with other stoves, cutting back incrementally.
> 
> BTW, after 11:11 above, I didn't see where you shut the air back down. I assume just a minute or two later. Did I miss that somewhere, or did you?




I just edited the post, yes, I closed the air again fully at 11:16.  I have tried shutting the air incrementally like that, and it doesn't seem to matter.  It always dies out the first time.  Reopen air for a few minutes, then shut it again and it cruises good. (Sometimes I do have to re-crack the door instead of just opening air again)


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## Jags (Dec 11, 2014)

Silenced38 said:


> This weekend ill stick a 4' section of pipe on top and see what happens.



Has the current pipe and cap been cleaned?  Please understand that if you have a bunch of gunk in there and you all of a sudden get things working correctly...you have a pipe full of fuel waiting to be lit off.  You don't want that.  It would be bad.


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## Silenced38 (Dec 11, 2014)

Jags said:


> Has the current pipe and cap been cleaned?  Please understand that if you have a bunch of gunk in there and you all of a sudden get things working correctly...you have a pipe full of fuel waiting to be lit off.  You don't want that.  It would be bad.


Yes. I cleaned the pipe. Im sure it is a draft problem. I still stand by whst i said i sn earlier post. Englander knows how to built stoves and i dont think this one is any deferent. 
Contacted Englander this morning got to send em some pics tonite. Let there mathematicians figure out how much pipe i need to get proper draft


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## Jags (Dec 11, 2014)

Silenced38 said:


> Contacted Englander this morning got to send em some pics tonite. Let there mathematicians figure out how much pipe i need to get proper draft



Good.  They are good folks to work with.  Hopefully they can get you all fixed up.  Keep us posted on the progress.


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## Silenced38 (Dec 11, 2014)

RopeS said:


> I just edited the post, yes, I closed the air again fully at 11:16.  I have tried shutting the air incrementally like that, and it doesn't seem to matter.  It always dies out the first time.  Reopen air for a few minutes, then shut it again and it cruises good. (Sometimes I do have to re-crack the door instead of just opening air again)


If you can post a pic of your overnite load.


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## begreen (Dec 11, 2014)

Will you be checking the flue cap screen closely today?


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## Silenced38 (Dec 11, 2014)

begreen said:


> Will you be checking the flue cap screen closely today?


Yes. Ill climb up and check it this evening


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## begreen (Dec 11, 2014)

Bring a wire brush with you just in case it needs a cleaning.


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## Silenced38 (Dec 11, 2014)

begreen said:


> Bring a wire brush with you just in case it needs a cleaning.


Since i had to climb up and check the cap any way. It was ok some buildup but not much.  I stuck a piece of 4' single wall pipe on top. 
Lite the stove. From cold to 450 in 37 mins. Thats the fastest its ever got to 450. Just a fine amount of smoke out the pipe. Its overcast so i gotta look hard to see it. Outside temp is 48


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## Silenced38 (Dec 11, 2014)

Been an hour and stove is 560 and cruzin nice.


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## spirilis (Dec 11, 2014)

Sounds like success!  Good secondaries once you shut'er down I hope?


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## begreen (Dec 11, 2014)

There ya go. Could be your valley is just a low pressure zone. Add some real chimney and brace it at the 5 ft level and you should be smiling.


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## Silenced38 (Dec 11, 2014)

spirilis said:


> Sounds like success!  Good secondaries once you shut'er down I hope?


it burning nice. its a small fire i only had 3 sticks left from last nite that i knew was dry.


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## begreen (Dec 11, 2014)

When it gets colder it will even perform better. Try to mix dry wood with the questionable wood for better burning.


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## Silenced38 (Dec 11, 2014)

begreen said:


> There ya go. Could be your valley is just a low pressure zone. Add some real chimney and brace it at the 5 ft level and you should be smiling.


yeah i guess. Thanks for yall sticking with me on this. i know i let my temper get away sometime.


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## Silenced38 (Dec 11, 2014)

i didnt want to take it off but theres a 30percent chance of rain tonite


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## tarzan (Dec 11, 2014)

Silenced38 said:


> Been an hour and stove is 560 and cruzin nice.



Hey, that sounds great.

Your on your way to heating with wood now instead of fighting with it!


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## Silenced38 (Dec 11, 2014)

when i first started using the stove it took awhile to get going. i just assumed that it was me. learning curve and all. but everybody was saying how fast theres would heat up and get going, got me to thinking.


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## Silenced38 (Dec 11, 2014)

tarzan said:


> Hey, that sounds great.
> 
> Your on your way to heating with wood now instead of fighting with it!


thats for sure.


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## begreen (Dec 11, 2014)

First time experiences with a stove are often mysterious when you are on your own trying to figure them out. That's why we're here. We've seen most all of them.


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## tarzan (Dec 11, 2014)

You should be able to rake the coals forward and reload once the load has burned and stove cools to 350*F

Reloading at 350*F is not set in stone. You will have to experiment to see what works best for you but be careful about reloading while it's much warmer than that. With a good draft now, fresh wood could take off on you.


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## prezes13 (Dec 11, 2014)

Good to see another happy customer.  I think that any wood stove manufacturer should include this site in its manual.  It would help a lot, I know it did for me.


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## Jags (Dec 12, 2014)

Silenced38 said:


> yeah i guess. Thanks for yall sticking with me on this. i know i let my temper get away sometime.



Fantastic - I love it when a plan comes together.  Now that you know the solution, make it right with the appropriate pipe and bracing.  The first year is always the toughest.


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## Silenced38 (Dec 22, 2014)

Well i added a brace and 3 foot of pipe. Still having a little trouble with initial start up. But over all worlds better. 
Reloads are buring great. Still havent worked up to a full load.  Been loading about half a load. Setting the trigger and not messing with it at all.  Letting the AAS trigger trip and start the long burn. Its been tripping between 450 and 500. Then climbing to 650 plus or minus. Not sure if my mm is reading right or not. But if it reads 15% or less then it burns good. 
Thanks for the all the help. 
Thanks to Mike at ESW for his help.


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## begreen (Dec 22, 2014)

Silenced38 said:


> Well i added a brace and 3 foot of pipe. Still having a little trouble with initial start up. But over all worlds better.
> Reloads are buring great. Still havent worked up to a full load.  Been loading about half a load. Setting the trigger and not messing with it at all.  Letting the AAS trigger trip and start the long burn. Its been tripping between 450 and 500. Then climbing to 650 plus or minus. Not sure if my mm is reading right or not. But if it reads 15% or less then it burns good.
> Thanks for the all the help.
> Thanks to Mike at ESW for his help.


Good news, thanks for the update. In colder weather the draft should be stronger.

Maybe the thread title should be changed now to "Learning the new Madison"?


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## Woody Stover (Dec 22, 2014)

begreen said:


> Maybe the thread title should be changed now to "Learning the new Madison"?


How about 'Making the Madison happy' or 'With extra 3 feet of stack, the Madison sucks more.'


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## Silenced38 (Dec 22, 2014)

Hopefully anyone that reads it will read the whole thing and see the fault was mine not the stoves.


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## spirilis (Oct 2, 2015)

Silenced38 said:


> Hopefully anyone that reads it will read the whole thing and see the fault was mine not the stoves.


How'd the rest of the winter go?  I just got my new Madison this week, no stovepipe yet so it's not hooked up, but I did take the back-end apart to get some pics & survey the AAS system...

Overall the design just appears to me like it is overly restrictive on the primary air intake, so I could imagine that with slightly less-than-amazing draft you'd have to crack the door open to get a fire a'blaze.  Having restrictive primary air means that the secondaries have to do all the work, and with ever so slightly sub-par wood that could be a problem.  I got my eyes on at least 1 potential modification I'll try if I end up having similar issues to what you had.  Also got a good pic of the AAS spring so if it ever seems to be working badly, I know what it "should" look like out of the box...


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## Silenced38 (Oct 2, 2015)

Congrats on the Madison. I like mine. I am still a little uncertain about the AAS system. Sometimes it works perfect. Other times it doesn't. I've found that if i pull it all the way out and set it, sometimes it will get stuck and not trip.  So i pull it all the way out then bump it in, just a hair.  The rest of the winter went good. The stove ran good really throws out the heat. I do have problems with marginal wood. But I'm going to for the next couple of winters, until my oak wood gets dry. I also figured out that my stove top thermo isn't reading right. It appears to read around 100* high. I have ordered a IR thermo for this winter. I swept the chimney pipe last week and got a little more than a quart of brown ash and very little creosote. I'm going to say my problems were ( not enough draft, marginal wood, inexperiance with EPA stoves, being overly cautious so as to avoid the dreaded run away, and stove top thermo being inaccurate.) So plz let me know how yours goes. I think this year will be much better.


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## Silenced38 (Oct 2, 2015)

this is what came out of the pipe


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## begreen (Oct 2, 2015)

Thanks for the update. Every season will get better, especially with drier wood.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 6, 2015)

Just to add I have three stoves, two Jotuls and the Englander 30-NC and I never close the primary air all the way on any of them to achieve a steady burn. A quarter or so of primary air keeps them humming along. Even the one on the 35' chimney.

Don't know where this obsession with closing them all the way down comes from. Well, yes I do. Here.


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## begreen (Oct 6, 2015)

Varies with  the stove. With the Castine most of the time it would close down to about 1/4 open unless there was a raging fire. Same setup for the T6 and I can often close it down all the way.


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## Huntindog1 (Oct 6, 2015)

Silenced38 said:


> (I wrote this i a very aggravated state. Im sure the troubles im having are mine and not the stoves. I dont want this to be taken as Englander Wood Stove fault. They make good well liked stoves and have very good customer service.)
> 
> Well been burning the Madison about a month now. Last nite could hear cresote fallin thru the pipe. So let it burn out.
> Came home and took the pipe apart and it had about 1/2 inch of cresote all around it. Not just the brown fakey soot but hard glazed cresote.
> ...




Are you loading on hot coals? Use kindling and a firestarter even if your on hot coals. Load up the stove but leave some room for some kindling and place the fire starter on the kindling. If the kindling is sitting on the hot coals and the addded  flames of the fire starter your kindling will get your temps up in the stove quickly. Hot fast burning kindling will allow you to have the door shut sooner and get the air turned down sooner as it will burn with less air because your larger pieces take longer to get going. But if you can play around getting the heat built up quicker that will help the larger pieces to get going.

If you leave the input air or door open it allows more air flow thru the stove flushing heat up the flue. So get the door shut and the input air shut down quickly with out killing your fire and secondary flames. To keep from killing the flames shut the input air down in 1/4 ways increments. Wait a few minutes between increments then shut it down another 1/4 ways. Its a seat of your paints feel you will have to learn.

Make sure to check your wood moisture content from a piece you freshly split and the inside surface .

Check out this post:

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/rake-coals-forward-and-stove-start-up-pictures.80659/

Watch this video:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/how-to-start-a-fire-video-top-down-method-and-other-tips.92574/


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## CarbonVol (Feb 10, 2016)

Silenced38 said:


> Yes. Ill climb up and check it this evening




Hey man quick question I picked up this stove about a month ago and just got to really try it out last night. I'm having some similar issues but my major issue I think is my air control dampener. The question I have for you is when you have the door closed and air wide open and you go from 100% open to closed does your fire die out? Mine makes no change whatsoever.

Also if I close the door my fire dies out big time. I'm burning two year old oak that has been stored in a wood shed its dry as dry gets. It's almost like my air control rod is broken or something. I'm getting back puffing as well but it seemed to be minimized when the tempss got up. Also I cannot get the stove over 350. I mean door cracked two good size splits of wood and 350 is as high as she goes. I'm missing something here I guess. I called esw the guy I spoke to on the phone was zero help unfortunately.

Let me know if you don't care.


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## mitchell721 (Feb 10, 2016)

Carbon what is your setup like. How much pipe? Are you using top down method? Do you have stove thermometer/pipe thermometer?


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## CarbonVol (Feb 10, 2016)

mitchell721 said:


> Carbon what is your setup like. How much pipe? Are you using top down method? Do you have stove thermometer/pipe thermometer?



I have like 12ft of pipe straight up. We added 4ft last night of single wall at the stop of my chimney and it didn't make a difference. Outside temps around 20 degrees. I have tried top down method, also my thermometer is an Imperial brand is 18 inches up from the base of my stove on my stove pipe. Won't get over 350 at all.


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## mitchell721 (Feb 10, 2016)

12 ft of chimney? Or 12ft including chimney and stove pipe? If it's 12 ft together I would atleast add another 3 ft section on to make it the 15 ft the manufacturer requires when I installed mine I was around 14 ft and on days that were low 40s I was pulling my hair out trying to get it to draft I added another 2 ft and still will fight it its around 45 46ish. My guess would be it's a mixture of a few things l. Oak is a pain when not fully dry. It may look and feel like it is but that's not always the case. Try this take some small splits and some 2x4 (untreated obviously) and mix them in with the oak. Second this stove does seem to be finicky sometimes so get your fire going with the door just cracked the start the handle in the ramp but don't push it down until pipe temp is about 300 then close it. Leave the air fully open/pushed in until temp is about 400 then start pulling it out a quarter every few minutes watching the flames. You will see a difference.


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## CarbonVol (Feb 10, 2016)

mitchell721 said:


> 12 ft of chimney? Or 12ft including chimney and stove pipe? If it's 12 ft together I would atleast add another 3 ft section on to make it the 15 ft the manufacturer requires when I installed mine I was around 14 ft and on days that were low 40s I was pulling my hair out trying to get it to draft I added another 2 ft and still will fight it its around 45 46ish. My guess would be it's a mixture of a few things l. Oak is a pain when not fully dry. It may look and feel like it is but that's not always the case. Try this take some small splits and some 2




It's 12ft including the stove pipe. When we added 4ft last night it didn't help at all. The temps are cold and it's even a little windy here.  My oak tested at 12 with with the mouisture meter. Only thing I haven't tried is with some 2x4's from lowes or something. I thought the OAK might need to be hooked up but with my window and or back door open in the same room it makes zero difference. I'm kinda going by the 10-2 rule. I'm 16ft away from my roof line.


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## mitchell721 (Feb 10, 2016)

If the wood is dry and your getting good draft then try the door thing. Every time I do a cold start up that's what I do. I do the top down method get the wood going pretty decent with the door just latch on the inner wall which leaves a 1/4 gap or so then when I think it's going usually around 300 on my pipe probe thermometer I start it in the actual closing ramp and let it sit until about 350 400 then push it down closed. Seems like any other time it will snuff the fire out. I know more pipe would help me with that but I don't want 15 ft of pipe sticking out of my roof so that works for me. Reloads when the box is warm is a non issue for me. That's what makes me think maybe your just shutting the door to fast and closing it down?


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## CarbonVol (Feb 10, 2016)

mitchell721 said:


> If the wood is dry and your getting good draft then try the door thing. Every time I do a cold start up that's what I do. I do the top down method get the wood going pretty decent with the door just latch on the inner wall which leaves a 1/4 gap or so then when I think it's going usually around 300 on my pipe probe thermometer I start it in the actual closing ramp and let it sit until about 350 400 then push it down closed. Seems like any other time it will snuff the fire out. I know more pipe would help me with that but I don't want 15 ft of pipe sticking out of my roof so that works for me. Reloads when the box is warm is a non issue for me. That's what makes me think maybe your just shutting the door to fast and closing it down?




See I don't feel like my draft is sufficient. When I take a lighter and open the door of the stove and hold the lighter right at the entrance it doesn't suck the flame in at all. What started this whole issue was back puffing off smoke. Well that seems to somewhat corrected when I got the stove around 300. I'm going to try tonight to start my stove with cut 2x4s and see if I can get the stove hot. With my door cracked I can't get it to 400 degrees. Right at about 325 is as high as I've seen it.


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## mitchell721 (Feb 10, 2016)

Ok well one the more knowledgeable guys might chime in here that have more knowledge than myself seems like the 4 ft peice would have helped out. Does that 4 ft peice make it stick up over the peak that's 16 ft away?


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## begreen (Feb 10, 2016)

CarbonVol said:


> Hey man quick question I picked up this stove about a month ago and just got to really try it out last night. I'm having some similar issues but my major issue I think is my air control dampener. The question I have for you is when you have the door closed and air wide open and you go from 100% open to closed does your fire die out? Mine makes no change whatsoever.
> 
> Also if I close the door my fire dies out big time. I'm burning two year old oak that has been stored in a wood shed its dry as dry gets. It's almost like my air control rod is broken or something. I'm getting back puffing as well but it seemed to be minimized when the tempss got up. Also I cannot get the stove over 350. I mean door cracked two good size splits of wood and 350 is as high as she goes. I'm missing something here I guess. I called esw the guy I spoke to on the phone was zero help unfortunately.
> 
> Let me know if you don't care.


Please describe the entire flue setup from the stove to the chimney cap. Include any elbows, tees, in the flue system. Turns in the flue path reduce draft.  Also, where is the stove located in the house, basement, main floor? Pictures are always welcome.


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## mitchell721 (Feb 10, 2016)

^here's your guy lol


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## spirilis (Feb 10, 2016)

CarbonVol said:


> I have like 12ft of pipe straight up. We added 4ft last night of single wall at the stop of my chimney and it didn't make a difference. Outside temps around 20 degrees. I have tried top down method, also my thermometer is an Imperial brand is 18 inches up from the base of my stove on my stove pipe. Won't get over 350 at all.


Your thermometer is a magnet-mount (not probe) I assume, sticking on single-wall stovepipe, 18 inches above the base of the stove?
If so, 350F is rockin' hot!  The typical place where we measure temp is on the stove top, about 2-3 inches in front of the stovepipe connector.  At that location 350F is low-burn, 450F medium-burn, 550F high-burn and 600+ overfire.


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## mitchell721 (Feb 10, 2016)

Spirilis according to englander these stoves are measured above the door on left or right side of unit. I keep mine on right side upper front. If that makes sense


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## RopeS (Feb 10, 2016)

Well I'll comment here, as I have a Madison. To address one of your questions, Carbon, if the door is closed with a decent fire going and the air is open (pushed in), when you close the air down (pull it out), the fire should decrease.  Really it just channels some/more air into the burn tubes and you get secondary action when you 'close' the air.  Remember, that as this is an EPA stove, it will not close the air off completely and make the fire go out.  As far as your chimney hight, mine is 15' 3" or so, which is right over the mfg recommended specs, and it functions fine except on really warm (45+) days usually.  If you are measuring stoveTOP temps on the left or right sides sort of in between the door and the stovepipe and are only getting 350, something is off.  When I first got my Madison I was having issues getting it to light/take off unless I kept the door open quite a while.  I hate to bring up the canned respons heree, but I'd be willing to bed that it is a fuel issue even though your chimney should be a bit higher too.  You say you have 2 yr oak that is 12%.  Just to be sure, is that measured with a moisture meter on the face of a freshly split piece?  Oak really takes a while to dry all the way through and I have 2 yr split oak too that still measures 25% plus on the inside of a fresh split.  If this is your first stove or first EPA stove, know that these (at least mine) really like sub 20% at the very minimum, and sometimes can be tricky with that moisture content.  The mention of your temps with only two large splits, especially if they're not as dry as you think they are, sound about normal. If your wood is really 12% on the inside, try some medium/smaller splits in there with some kindling or SuperCedars and see what happens.  I do both topdown and traditional ways of starting the fire and I find personally for this stove, starting a fire on the bottom seems to work better.  I was pretty frustrated at first with the Madison, but since getting some truly dry wood, I'm extremely happy with it.  No buildup in the chimney to speak of, it's amazing just how clean this thing burns. The only way I can fault it is the Auto Air Control thing simply doesn't work reliably, but I just use the air control manually, the old fashioned way.. :D  Just my .02, hope it helps.


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## spirilis (Feb 11, 2016)

mitchell721 said:


> Spirilis according to englander these stoves are measured above the door on left or right side of unit. I keep mine on right side upper front. If that makes sense


That's funny, I never noticed that, had to re-read the manual and you are correct, the right or left side of the stove near the top.  I always measure on the stovetop to the left & right side of my Ecofan using an IR thermometer... I bet they correlate well enough though.  The temps I see on the stovetop always appear to correspond to 350F being a "low" burn (not too much heat thrown into the room but still appears to burn clean with somewhat sparse or lazy secondaries), 400+ being lively and 550+ being "Gates of Hell".


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## mitchell721 (Feb 11, 2016)

Yea I would imagine it's not too far off. I would guess the top runs a bit hotter but wouldn't think too big of a variance


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## blades (Feb 11, 2016)

Silenced38 said:


> Well i added a brace and 3 foot of pipe. Still having a little trouble with initial start up. But over all worlds better.
> Reloads are buring great. Still havent worked up to a full load.  Been loading about half a load. Setting the trigger and not messing with it at all.  Letting the AAS trigger trip and start the long burn. Its been tripping between 450 and 500. Then climbing to 650 plus or minus. Not sure if my mm is reading right or not. But if it reads 15% or less then it burns good.
> Thanks for the all the help.
> Thanks to Mike at ESW for his help.



 Just a note on MM units- measurements are to be taken when the material is at room temperature( give or take a bit) on a freshly opened face, across the grain, but with the grain isn't always that much different. I wouldn't trust any battery that may have come with mm either.
  There is a lot of confusion as far as "kiln dried is concerned- true Kiln dried wood would be at apx 6-8%, most of what is advertised as kiln dried is only kiln treated for bugs and as such is still too wet internally for the current crop of stoves ( only going to get worse with the new regs). This also applies to a lot of pallets. 
Standing dead- the upper reaches of it may be fine but the bottom third will always be too wet due to wicking action. Learned that the hard way several years ago.  As always your mileage may vary.


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## branchburner (Feb 11, 2016)

spirilis said:


> At that location 350F is low-burn, 450F medium-burn, 550F high-burn and 600+ overfire.



Why do you consider 600f overfire? It sounds like the location of the thermometor would be a pretty hot place on the stove top, and 600f doesn't seem all that hot.


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## Woody Stover (Feb 11, 2016)

Silenced38 said:


> over all worlds better. Thanks to Mike at ESW for his help.





begreen said:


> Maybe the thread title should be changed now to "Learning the new Madison"?


Yep, I think you can still edit that title to something more positive, so newbies and casual observers aren't misled...


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## spirilis (Feb 11, 2016)

branchburner said:


> Why do you consider 600f overfire? It sounds like the location of the thermometor would be a pretty hot place on the stove top, and 600f doesn't seem all that hot.


The manual says so.  But now that I know the manual is talking about the side of the stove...... maybe I should re-check that.  Mine does typically get up to 650-750F (stovetop near the ecofan) if I have wood up near the baffles going nuclear on me.  I pull the draft all the way out and turn the fan on high, move the ecofan to the side of the stove pointing at the fluepipe (poor man's magic heat) when it gets above 600F on the stovetop.


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## branchburner (Feb 11, 2016)

spirilis said:


> the manual is talking about the side of the stove......



I like having an IR gun, so I can check temps all over the stove and pipe and see where the hotter and cooler spots tend to be.


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## mitchell721 (Feb 11, 2016)

Spirilis, not saying it's a fact but if you got that temp alot then the top may run quite a bit hotter. I have a meeco magnetic that I keep on right side of stove and top front. And a flue guard probe roughly 18 inches up my doublewall. Usually when she is firing off good and fan on low it runs between 400-500. Obviously that with fan removing some heat. Only had to turn it on high once when I put some real dry ash in and waited to long to turn it down and pushing 600 with the flue pushing 800 that one was a clencher. I do have a question for you fellas speaking of that though. I see alot of ppl with other stoves that talk about there flues being like 400 range and such. Mine on a normal burn even with it turned down all the way will keep stove around 450 500 with fan on low and flue around 500-600 for you guys that watch your flue temp is that normal for you?


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## spirilis (Feb 11, 2016)

mitchell721 said:


> Spirilis, not saying it's a fact but if you got that temp alot then the top may run quite a bit hotter. I have a meeco magnetic that I keep on right side of stove and top front. And a flue guard probe roughly 18 inches up my doublewall. Usually when she is firing off good and fan on low it runs between 400-500. Obviously that with fan removing some heat. Only had to turn it on high once when I put some real dry ash in and waited to long to turn it down and pushing 600 with the flue pushing 800 that one was a clencher. I do have a question for you fellas speaking of that though. I see alot of ppl with other stoves that talk about there flues being like 400 range and such. Mine on a normal burn even with it turned down all the way will keep stove around 450 500 with fan on low and flue around 500-600 for you guys that watch your flue temp is that normal for you?


Yep I just watched it tonight when I fired it up cold ... During startup, the stovetop was maybe 50-150F hotter.  Once it was cruising along there wasn't as much of a difference between that side-upper-corner and the stovetop, but I can imagine now that under "Gates of Hell" conditions the stovetop is probably going to be hotter than the side-upper-corner measurement point ESW is using for their reference.  Oh well, that explains things.  My old Jotul 8 would routinely push 700-750F on the center stovetop with good dry wood briquettes (wood brick fuel or liberty bricks) anyway.

As for flue temps.... here's a graph of my current burn, coming from a probe type thermocouple sitting ~4" inside the pipe, roughly 12" above the stovetop (at the horizontal end of my 90 degree elbow):




I have noticed that the IR temp gun temperature on the stovepipe does roughly correspond with 1/2 what that thermocouple probe is reading.


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## Stinkpickle (Feb 11, 2016)

spirilis said:


> Your thermometer is a magnet-mount (not probe) I assume, sticking on single-wall stovepipe, 18 inches above the base of the stove?
> If so, 350F is rockin' hot!  The typical place where we measure temp is on the stove top, about 2-3 inches in front of the stovepipe connector.  At that location 350F is low-burn, 450F medium-burn, 550F high-burn and 600+ overfire.


That's what I was thinking.  I run my smoke dragon showing 350-400F 18" up the single wall, and it has no creosote issues.


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## mitchell721 (Feb 11, 2016)

Looking at that mines about right then. Thank you


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## Silenced38 (Feb 12, 2016)

Sorry it took me so long to reply. 
I have 19' of pipe from the top of the stove to the cap. It drafts well but i stil get some back puffing if i open the door quickly or the fire is just getting started. I use the thermo on top of the stove. I dont have a flue thermo. My stove has been running great this season. But ive tried really hard to have dry wood. Are you checking the wood on the face of a fresh split


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## spirilis (Feb 12, 2016)

Silenced38 said:


> Sorry it took me so long to reply.
> I have 19' of pipe from the top of the stove to the cap. It drafts well but i stil get some back puffing if i open the door quickly or the fire is just getting started. I use the thermo on top of the stove. I dont have a flue thermo. My stove has been running great this season. But ive tried really hard to have dry wood. Are you checking the wood on the face of a fresh split


I always get a back puff if I open the door quickly.  I don't think that's avoidable - just the nature of the design.  Never get back puffing if the door is barely cracked while starting up... if I ever do I crack open the basement sliding glass door for a bit.

Learned an important lesson last night - The Madison is rated for 35lbs of wood, don't try to add more than that.  40lb of wood briquettes has it burning dirty (visible smoke plumes out the chimney) and holy HELL was that burning hot...


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## Woody Stover (Feb 12, 2016)

spirilis said:


> Madison is rated for 35lbs of wood, don't try to add more than that.  40lb of wood briquettes has it burning dirty (visible smoke plumes out the chimney) and holy HELL was that burning hot...


I guess maybe you have to leave enough room at the top for the secondary burn to work properly?


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## spirilis (Feb 12, 2016)

Woody Stover said:


> I guess maybe you have to leave enough room at the top for the secondary burn to work properly?


Yeah having wood too close to the baffles is bad for clean burning and control.  I might be able to fit 2 of those bundles in there laid flat instead of on their sides but I'll have to see.  That'd give another inch or so clearance.  It'd just be nice to be able to toss 2 20lb bundles into the stove for a robust, all-night-long burn that'll carry us through <10F nights... minimal bother & fuss with maximal punch.


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## Silenced38 (Feb 12, 2016)

Huntindog1 said:


> Are you loading on hot coals? Use kindling and a firestarter even if your on hot coals. Load up the stove but leave some room for some kindling and place the fire starter on the kindling. If the kindling is sitting on the hot coals and the addded  flames of the fire starter your kindling will get your temps up in the stove quickly. Hot fast burning kindling will allow you to have the door shut sooner and get the air turned down sooner as it will burn with less air because your larger pieces take longer to get going. But if you can play around getting the heat built up quicker that will help the larger pieces to get going.
> 
> If you leave the input air or door open it allows more air flow thru the stove flushing heat up the flue. So get the door shut and the input air shut down quickly with out killing your fire and secondary flames. To keep from killing the flames shut the input air down in 1/4 ways increments. Wait a few minutes between increments then shut it down another 1/4 ways. Its a seat of your paints feel you will have to learn.
> 
> ...


The reason i think i was having trouble to start with is i was transioning from a smoke dragon and marginal wood. In order to get my old stove to burn i would stack the wood really loosely. When i first started with the Madison i was doing the same thing and it was allowing the wood to really get going. But i also learned later that it was ok for the stove to burn up to 800f briefly. But now it rarely gets to 750f. It likes to get up to between 650 and 700 tho. But really liking the Madison this season. You might say were finally speaking the same language.


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## spirilis (Feb 17, 2016)

Just want to add for kicks, I got the AC-30 blower this week for my Madison, installed it today.  When you first turn the rheostat on (past the off click) it's on high so it's loud... maybe as loud as the old AC-16 was on high, but it seems to blow more air through the heat shield vents.  Turn the rheostat fully clockwise and it's on "low" - beyond the motor hum, it's pretty quiet and you still feel air pushing through those vents.  Nice upgrade.  Cost $177 or so shipped from ESW.


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## miked_187 (Nov 26, 2018)

resurrecting an old thread, but I'm looking for some help with a new ESW Madison I bought on Friday and installed over the weekend. 

While most here are dealing with cold stoves I've got the exact opposite problem - can't keep the break in fires under 450*

On my 2nd break in burn this morning, and it's going about the same as the one last night.  I was thinking that perhaps some ash in the bottom between the bricks and over the ash cover would help seal it up.  Started the fire with 8-10 small 1x1 split pieces of oak, some cardboard under and it lit right off, left the door ajar and the fire caught and was able to close the door within 10 minutes or so. 

Air handle pulled all the way out and not turned the 1/4 turn, I believe I have it as shut down as possible yet the IR temps show front left corner at 455, center at 555, and front right at 423. 

Front door seal is tight, but I've yet to try to run a dollar bill around the entire gasket to be sure, that's next step after this fire burns out in an hour or 2.  Has to be an air leak somewhere, and the fact that I can't kill the fire by pulling the air rod out all the way def has me concerned.

Read the instructions twice - did I miss something?  Suggestions?


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## miked_187 (Nov 26, 2018)

temps still holding steady, I'm at 289* about 18" up the stove pipe. Outdoor temp 42*


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## miked_187 (Nov 26, 2018)

just off the phone with Travis at England's tech line, my todo: confirm min of 15' of stove pipe length.  My thinking about the damper rod turning on the AAS was backwards, that I want to have it twisted on most all times, so burn the next break in fire with the rod set to AAS.  Take the backs off of it and have a look at the controls to help me understand how the stove functions after it cools later this morning.

This fire is done, house stinks of hot high temp paint curing lol.  After using the Vermont Castings stove for so many years this new fangled device is sure different, but no doubt burns well.  Prev stove was 47k BTU and heated the house well, this one at ~80k BTU should get the job done with less wood I hope


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## spirilis (Nov 26, 2018)

Double check that door gasket.  Mine was quite loose this year (starting 3rd year of burning) and now that it's tight, it feels much more controlled.  I never did check it even when it was new and I vaguely recall during inferno full-firebox burns some flames that appeared to show up inside near the door gaskets...

Stacking firewood too high up in the firebox will cause it to burn out of control due to the unmetered secondary air from the burn tubes.  I often do that intentionally (when the stove's cold) to get the stove rip roarin' hot.  It should self-limit once the firewood burns down.

Taking off the back cover to inspect the AAS and airflow assembly will be a good idea if they have any concerns about that.  It's not too hard but the most annoying part of the process IMO is putting the side shields back on after you've taken them off...


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## miked_187 (Nov 26, 2018)

spirilis said:


> Double check that door gasket.  Mine was quite loose this year (starting 3rd year of burning) and now that it's tight, it feels much more controlled.  I never did check it even when it was new and I vaguely recall during inferno full-firebox burns some flames that appeared to show up inside near the door gaskets...



just threw another 5-6 1x1 pieces in it to cycle it again.  on the list to do when it cools



spirilis said:


> Stacking firewood too high up in the firebox will cause it to burn out of control due to the unmetered secondary air from the burn tubes.  I often do that intentionally (when the stove's cold) to get the stove rip roarin' hot.  It should self-limit once the firewood burns down.



I started it with a log cabin style stack this morning of 2 tiers of 3x3, reached nearly to the top.  good to know



spirilis said:


> Taking off the back cover to inspect the AAS and airflow assembly will be a good idea if they have any concerns about that.  It's not too hard but the most annoying part of the process IMO is putting the side shields back on after you've taken them off...



not so much concerns about function, but sometimes I'm a visual learner and if I can see how things flow then dots begin to connect for me.

3rd break burn in underway now that surface temps are back down to ~200*, all the windows in the house are open this time now that the sun is up


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## spirilis (Nov 26, 2018)

miked_187 said:


> not so much concerns about function, but sometimes I'm a visual learner and if I can see how things flow then dots begin to connect for me.


Definitely understand that, you'll be intrigued when you see how that thing works.  The big rectangular thing in the middle of the stove's back is the secondary air inlet (look from underside to see the slots), the primary air is up top with its goofy setup, which sends the primary air through a rectangular duct through the stovetop where it gets super-preheated before entering the airwash manifold up front... FYI I had to remove my AAS actuator (think part of that happened from inside the stove, after removing the front burntube and baffles in a stone cold stove) and adjust/retighten its locking nut to get it to work right the first time.  Hopefully they've improved the design since.


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## miked_187 (Nov 26, 2018)

3rd burn repeat of the first 2, turning the AAS on had little to no impact even with the rod all the way out.  Way too hot with a tiny load in it.


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## edyit (Nov 26, 2018)

miked_187 said:


> I believe I have it as shut down as possible yet the IR temps show front left corner at 455, center at 555, and front right at 423.



nothing wrong with those temps at all, thats just starting to get up to cruising temperature.



miked_187 said:


> Has to be an air leak somewhere, and the fact that I can't kill the fire by pulling the air rod out all the way def has me concerned.



you can't kill the fire by pulling the air control all the way closed. you have unrestricted air that flows in from the secondary burn tubes and from the dog house air supply (in front of the door in the middle on the bottom) these stoves are actually designed to put off more heat with the air turned down, this is what gets the secondary burn system going, its kinda counter intuitive buts its how its designed to work, this is not the old style smoke dragon that you turned the air down and it starved it and smoldered making creosote.


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## edyit (Nov 26, 2018)

miked_187 said:


> Way too hot with a tiny load in it.



i dont understand, whats way to hot?


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## miked_187 (Nov 26, 2018)

edyit said:


> i dont understand, whats way to hot?


460* left and right on the front, 550* on the center.  Manual says that the break in burns should be managed at 300* in the front corners, I've found no way to effectively manage the temp down, with a small load of 1x1 oak, maybe 6 pieces on top of dying coals those temps are as low as I can get the stove.  The guy on the support line at Englands said that those temps were too hot, "overfired"


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## spirilis (Nov 26, 2018)

miked_187 said:


> 460* left and right on the front, 550* on the center.  Manual says that the break in burns should be managed at 300* in the front corners, I've found no way to effectively manage the temp down, with a small load of 1x1 oak, maybe 6 pieces on top of dying coals those temps are as low as I can get the stove.  The guy on the support line at Englands said that those temps were too hot, "overfired"



That seems a bit high for six 1x1 kindling splits but I don't know.  I usually just measure mine in the center of the stovetop midway to the flue exit.  Anything over 550F I get nervous and pull the draft all the way out (and that DOES tame the fire, most of the time, after 5-10 minutes anyway, unless the fuel's up to the tubes).  I also have their larger variable speed blower on the back of mine which I crank up when that happens.


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## edyit (Nov 26, 2018)

i have the same stove, 50-shssw01, the break in fires on this model are mainly to cure the paint, so it stops off gassing in your house. i can tell you that i routinely get 550+ on the outside corners where the thermometers are


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## miked_187 (Nov 26, 2018)

edyit said:


> nothing wrong with those temps at all, thats just starting to get up to cruising temperature.
> 
> 
> 
> you can't kill the fire by pulling the air control all the way closed.



not trying to kill it, just manage the top temps.  My past experience is that you do that via the damper rod above the door



> you have unrestricted air that flows in from the secondary burn tubes and from the dog house air supply (in front of the door in the middle on the bottom)



that unrestricted air comes in from the bottom inlet on the back side of the stove and out the dog house, yes?



> these stoves are actually designed to put off more heat with the air turned down, this is what gets the secondary burn system going, its kinda counter intuitive buts its how its designed to work, this is not the old style smoke dragon that you turned the air down and it starved it and smoldered making creosote.



yea, all kinda new stuff to learn

So cutting to the chase - the manual says first 3 burns should not exceed 300* on the front L and R corners.  I can't get the top temp under ~450* with only about 15-20% of the fire box loaded.  Even with those temps the flue temp about 18" up the pipe hasn't gone much over 300, bottom is around 400*

So do I have a problem?  if so is the problem with the stove?  or is the problem me/operator error/operator ignorance, and needing to learn how this stove works/behaves.  Vote now....


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## begreen (Nov 26, 2018)

Sounds like there is some misinformation here as well as a learning curve. 1" sticks are going to ignite quickly with a hot fire. That is kindling. The temps you are reporting are far from overfiring, in spite of what the support person said. This is a steel stove. The breakin period is minimal and primarily to bake in the fresh paint on the stove. You can not completely cut off the air on any EPA stove. That would smolder the fire which these stoves are designed to prevent.

The Englander is going to run and burn differently than the Defiant. @spirilis was an early Madison owner and documented the AAS operation. This thread may be helpful.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/esw-madison-pics.146903/


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## spirilis (Nov 26, 2018)

The doghouse is front center bottom of the stove, a little hole in the steel between the two firebricks at the door opening.  If you pulled out the ash pan and shined a flashlight up you'd see a matching hole in the pedestal area supplying intake air to that doghouse.

Maybe build your fire towards the back of the stove?  The flames will have further to travel before hitting the front of the stove... might run cooler on the stovetop (and give off more heat from the sides eventually)


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## spirilis (Nov 26, 2018)

begreen said:


> The Englander is going to run and burn differently than the Defiant. @spirilis was an early Madison owner and documented the AAS operation. This thread may be helpful.
> https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/esw-madison-pics.146903/


Forgot I had that thread :D  It spoils all the details for you.


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## edyit (Nov 26, 2018)

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/dog-house-air-question.163981/#post-2201676

has pics of the doghouse and where it is 2nd or 3rd post in


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## lsucet (Nov 26, 2018)

miked_187 said:


> My thinking about the damper rod turning on the AAS was backwards,


I have the same stove and the big brother. No on hearth at this time. If i remember correctly, the AAS twist to the left to set it up. Facing the stove. It works better if you let the stove cool down before reloads or from a cold stove. On hot reload it will not work and if you force it to stay it can never shut and give you an overfire condition. Reason is that the stove is too hot on hot reloads to the AAS mechanism too work properly.


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## miked_187 (Nov 26, 2018)

begreen said:


> Sounds like there is some misinformation here as well as a learning curve. 1" sticks are going to ignite quickly with a hot fire. That is kindling. The temps you are reporting are far from overfiring, in spite of what the support person said. This is a steel stove. The breakin period is minimal and primarily to bake in the fresh paint on the stove. You can not completely cut off the air on any EPA stove. That would smolder the fire which these stoves are designed to prevent.



makes sense



> The Englander is going to run and burn differently than the Defiant. @spirilis was an early Madison owner and documented the AAS operation. This thread may be helpful.
> https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/esw-madison-pics.146903/



great thread with all those photos, plus I know what to look for on a mis-assembled AAS when I take the back off "real soon now" and how to fix it if so, thanks for the pointer


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## henjj (Dec 6, 2018)

For the Madison Englander, I have a question about the fiberboard.  I have been experimenting with the placement of the fiberboard on the baffles.  I have pushed the two pieces to the back and then pulled them toward the front with different results.  When pushed toward the back, the glass on the stove gets dirty and smoke billows out when I open the door to re-load.  When I have the fiberboard pulled toward the front, the glass stays clean and smoke doesn't billow out when I re-load.  I read in another thread that you want the fiberboard pushed all the way towards the back.  Can someone tell me the reasoning for this?  Thanks.


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## bholler (Dec 6, 2018)

henjj said:


> For the Madison Englander, I have a question about the fiberboard.  I have been experimenting with the placement of the fiberboard on the baffles.  I have pushed the two pieces to the back and then pulled them toward the front with different results.  When pushed toward the back, the glass on the stove gets dirty and smoke billows out when I open the door to re-load.  When I have the fiberboard pulled toward the front, the glass stays clean and smoke doesn't billow out when I re-load.  I read in another thread that you want the fiberboard pushed all the way towards the back.  Can someone tell me the reasoning for this?  Thanks.


They need to be back all the way.  With them to the front you are bypassing the secondary combustion system.   My guess is with dirty glass and tons of smoke is that your wood is not dried properly.


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## spirilis (Dec 6, 2018)

henjj said:


> For the Madison Englander, I have a question about the fiberboard.  I have been experimenting with the placement of the fiberboard on the baffles.  I have pushed the two pieces to the back and then pulled them toward the front with different results.  When pushed toward the back, the glass on the stove gets dirty and smoke billows out when I open the door to re-load.  When I have the fiberboard pulled toward the front, the glass stays clean and smoke doesn't billow out when I re-load.  I read in another thread that you want the fiberboard pushed all the way towards the back.  Can someone tell me the reasoning for this?  Thanks.



I'm not so sure secondary combustion would be bypassed as there's plenty of places for secondary air to come in along the firebox, but you're pushing the smoke directly to the back of the stovetop where the flue exit is located, reducing the smoke's residence time in the stove and reducing the amount of heat you trap from the fire's hot smoke.  It's your firewood but you won't be getting as much heat per cord that way.  Much more heat dumped out the chimney.

Also don't try using the Automatic Air Setback system, it will trigger super early when you run the stove that way.  The AAS's bimetal spring protrudes in the back right side of the stovetop chamber (chamber above the baffles) and with the baffles forward, flames would hit it directly (instead of the bimetal spring housing receiving heat towards the end of the smoke's residence time just before it exits the flue).


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## Rich L (Dec 7, 2018)

Silenced38 said:


> Unfortunately they dont sell any kind of pressed wood blocks within 100 miles of my area. But they do sell bags of kiln dried hickory blocks for wood smokers. As soon as i get my fiber board replaced ill try a bag of those.
> Now of the things ive noticed 1 is the pine burns way better than the hardwood  and 2nd the stove either has to be super hot or in the coal stage before i can open the door without smoke pouring out.


 Add another 3-6 feet of pipe to increase your draft.


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