# Looking for wood/gas (propane) combo boiler



## gimmegas

Moving to Maine in a year or so and want to get an efficient gasifier combination wood/gas boiler to heat a new home of about 2500 sq ft. Don't know of any distributors in ME for Biomass but would like to find one if anyone knows of any up that way. Also if anyone has used the combo version, what do you like/dislike about them? Would also entertain looking at other makes/models if they can be found there (Maine). I'm new to the forum but have really picked up some great info so far. Thanks.


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## avc8130

If going propane for the backup, I would get 2 separate units.  That way you can buy very efficient versions of each. 

The only real advantage to a combo unit is common flue when using oil/wood.  Since your fossil fuel is propane, you won't need a flue as you can direct vent the high efficiency models through PVC. 

ac


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## Jeff S

Sounds like excellent advice,besides that would give you a true backup since there is a good chance that if there was a fault with a combo unit it would be rendered useless for both fuels.


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## infinitymike

Welcome to the forum. Stick around, do some reading and  ask lots of questions.
This place is great and has extremely intelligent and knowledgable people who willing to help.
I'm not sure if there is a  wood/propane combo but there are definitely wood/oil and wood/pellet units out there.

Sounds like you have plenty of time to do some research so take it slow and get informed.


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## mikefrommaine

There is a user on here that is considering becoming a dealer for biomass boilers. Located in Freeport. He had contacted me last spring not sure what he decided. I can pm you his name if you want to talk to him.


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## JP11

avc8130 said:


> If going propane for the backup, I would get 2 separate units. That way you can buy very efficient versions of each.
> 
> The only real advantage to a combo unit is common flue when using oil/wood. Since your fossil fuel is propane, you won't need a flue as you can direct vent the high efficiency models through PVC.
> 
> ac


 
Great advice here.  To go a step further... if you are planning and building this home.  Plan for an easy entrance and storage for wood to your boiler room.  You could make a garage, that wasn't a garage, maybe a smaller, narrow garage type door.. wide enough to drop in pallets of wood.   Plan for a nice 1000 gal tank in the storage room.

Plan for your propane backup.. and use propane for your clothes dryer and maybe even your oven.  A backup generator could be pretty small if all it was powering was circulators or a small propane boiler.  BONUS.. the propane is stored outdoors and doesn't take up floor space.

If I had it to do over.. I'd be that way for sure.

JP


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## mikefrommaine

While we're planning his house, I'd add make the boiler at ground level. Either in a daylight basement or in a mechanical room off your mudroom. Ideally it would be isolated from your house but accessible without having to go outside. Add plenty of room for wood storage.


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## JP11

mikefrommaine said:


> While we're planning his house, I'd add make the boiler at ground level. Either in a daylight basement or in a mechanical room off your mudroom. Ideally it would be isolated from your house but accessible without having to go outside. Add plenty of room for wood storage.


 
That's what I was trying to say..   Garage door.. but obviously a narrow one so insurance couldn't call it a garage.  Long and skinny would work.  1000 gal tank for water storage.. and could hold a couple cords right inside.  Gotta have NO door from there to real garage.  But made to stay inside to feed boiler in your slippers.


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## mikefrommaine

I have a set of French doors,6' wide. Just big enough drive a utv or small trailer through. Would be great size for dropping pallets. Coupled with a pallet jack one would reduce the handling quite a bit.


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## ozzie88

Try these guys, there in maine build there own units,install,etc. I been talking to themabout a unit, what part of maine you moveing? I am by Lincoln.http://www.mainewoodfurnaces.com/


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## ozzie88

In maine now you can use one flue for two units,,they changed the laws here.


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## JP11

ozzie88 said:


> In maine now you can use one flue for two units,,they changed the laws here.


 
That's not really true.  They said it was not allowed anymore.  Then after a few year rescinded the new law... and said if you had it prior to some year... I wanna say 90s.. then it was grandfathered.

JP


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## ozzie88

click on the we


JP11 said:


> That's not really true. They said it was not allowed anymore. Then after a few year rescinded the new law... and said if you had it prior to some year... I wanna say 90s.. then it was grandfathered.
> 
> JP


click on the web site site i put just above this,they will send you the new laws,I have them,the grandfather in is still there BUT you can add another unit now,its true.http://www.mainewoodfurnaces.com/   it something they just did,  Has to be ul listed, a carbon monoxide by bedroom,good chimney,installed according to mf. instalation specs, they will e-mail the whole thing to you theres 4 pages i just got this last week.


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## JP11

ozzie88 said:


> click on the we
> 
> click on the web site site i put just above this,they will send you the new laws,I have them,the grandfather in is still there BUT you can add another unit now,its true.http://www.mainewoodfurnaces.com/ it something they just did, Has to be ul listed, a carbon monoxide by bedroom,good chimney,installed according to mf. instalation specs, they will e-mail the whole thing to you theres 4 pages i just got this last week.


 
Good to know.. I'll get the law.  Makes my install MORE legal.  still not perfect.  but the solution works for me.


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## JP11

Here it is..  It says essentially that the manufacturer of the unit has to say that the second item in the flue is ok.

http://maine.gov/dps/fmo/documents/WoodburningStoves.pdf


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## ozzie88

From what i read just says UL. listed, which most are anyways, I tried to post them on here but I am not good with this thing,lol.  You just have to read them all over you see what I mean.


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## mikefrommaine

ozzie88 said:


> Try these guys, there in maine build there own units,install,etc. I been talking to themabout a unit, what part of maine you moveing? I am by Lincoln.http://www.mainewoodfurnaces.com/




Well I guess they did decide to become a biomass dealer.

http://www.mainewoodfurnaces.com/products/wood-gasification/


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## gimmegas

avc8130 said:


> If going propane for the backup, I would get 2 separate units. That way you can buy very efficient versions of each.
> 
> The only real advantage to a combo unit is common flue when using oil/wood. Since your fossil fuel is propane, you won't need a flue as you can direct vent the high efficiency models through PVC.
> 
> ac


ac
Thanks. It seems as there is a lot of agreement w/ your advice. Will definitely look into the two separate unit idea.


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## gimmegas

Jeff S said:


> Sounds like excellent advice,besides that would give you a true backup since there is a good chance that if there was a fault with a combo unit it would be rendered useless for both fuels.


Good thought, Jeff, esp. since it would need electric to operate, right?


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## gimmegas

infinitymike said:


> Welcome to the forum. Stick around, do some reading and ask lots of questions.
> This place is great and has extremely intelligent and knowledgable people who willing to help.
> I'm not sure if there is a wood/propane combo but there are definitely wood/oil and wood/pellet units out there.
> 
> Sounds like you have plenty of time to do some research so take it slow and get informed.


Thanks, infinity. I really do have much to learn. This site is awesome!


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## gimmegas

mikefrommaine said:


> There is a user on here that is considering becoming a dealer for biomass boilers. Located in Freeport. He had contacted me last spring not sure what he decided. I can pm you his name if you want to talk to him.


MFM, yes, I'd definitely like to talk to him. Thank you.


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## gimmegas

JP11 said:


> Great advice here. To go a step further... if you are planning and building this home. Plan for an easy entrance and storage for wood to your boiler room. You could make a garage, that wasn't a garage, maybe a smaller, narrow garage type door.. wide enough to drop in pallets of wood. Plan for a nice 1000 gal tank in the storage room.
> 
> Plan for your propane backup.. and use propane for your clothes dryer and maybe even your oven. A backup generator could be pretty small if all it was powering was circulators or a small propane boiler. BONUS.. the propane is stored outdoors and doesn't take up floor space.
> 
> If I had it to do over.. I'd be that way for sure.
> 
> JP


Thanks, JP. Yes, I'm in the planning stage. Planning a walk out basement w/ one end of it for the gasifier and wood storage. Putting in a bulkhead 4' wide to chuck the wood into the basement from my pick- up truck ( and to put the unit in the basement). That brings up anther question.  To this point I've devoted 13' x 30' of my structure for the wood and boiler. What do you think? Enough for the winter supply?


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## gimmegas

mikefrommaine said:


> While we're planning his house, I'd add make the boiler at ground level. Either in a daylight basement or in a mechanical room off your mudroom. Ideally it would be isolated from your house but accessible without having to go outside. Add plenty of room for wood storage.


MFM,  I'm doing a walk out basement. My reply to JP pretty much sums it up. Would appreciate your input on space too. 13' by 30' enough for everything? I will need to go down to the basement to feed the beast. I don't mind. I'm thinking of doing radiant heat in the floor. What do think about that?


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## gimmegas

JP11 said:


> That's what I was trying to say.. Garage door.. but obviously a narrow one so insurance couldn't call it a garage. Long and skinny would work. 1000 gal tank for water storage.. and could hold a couple cords right inside. Gotta have NO door from there to real garage. But made to stay inside to feed boiler in your slippers.


1000 gallons? Really? Seems like a lot, but I'm a gasifier virgin. That will probably increase my space requirements? I do plan on using it for DHW too, at least in the winter. I told Mikefrommaine that I am looking into radiant floor heating.  Probably on demand HW in the summer w/ gas. Does that sound good? Any thoughts?


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## gimmegas

ozzie88 said:


> Try these guys, there in maine build there own units,install,etc. I been talking to themabout a unit, what part of maine you moveing? I am by Lincoln.http://www.mainewoodfurnaces.com/


Ozzie, thank you for the the contact. I'll give them a holler. Also, thank you for the law thing. Very good to know. Also, we will be neighbors. I used to work at LP&P (Many, many years ago...)


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## gimmegas

JP11 said:


> Here it is.. It says essentially that the manufacturer of the unit has to say that the second item in the flue is ok.
> 
> http://maine.gov/dps/fmo/documents/WoodburningStoves.pdf


Thanks for checkin', JP. Trusting is good but verifying is better.


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## JP11

gimmegas said:


> 1000 gallons? Really? Seems like a lot, but I'm a gasifier virgin. That will probably increase my space requirements? I do plan on using it for DHW too, at least in the winter. I told Mikefrommaine that I am looking into radiant floor heating. Probably on demand HW in the summer w/ gas. Does that sound good? Any thoughts?


 
I'm a fan of more storage.. less frequent burns.  A 1k gallon tank would take up 40" wide or so.. before insulation.. so call it 4' wide to be safe.  20' long plus a few inches.  You could use the storage ABOVE that tank.. You wouldn't want to schlep wood up on top of that tank, being 4' tall.. but it would be good infrequent use storage space.

Chucking wood down a bulkhead is ok.. but then you gotta stack it again.  If you had something that was, roll in, roll out.. you could come up with some cart or pallet based system.  I envision something like a garage on one end of the house.. and a wood boiler/storage on the other end of the house.  You wouldn't need frequent access for wood.. but you sure want it easy.

JP


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## JP11

As for DHW.. mine is a zone off my boiler. Indirect tank is heated via wood boiler tanks if tanks are above 135 degrees.  Whole house is radiant.. so i can use temps down that low, unlike baseboards. I allow my storage temp a wide swing.. from 195 down to 135 degrees.

I did use wood heat for domestic hot water this summer. I wasn't done insulating yet. I think I could run one fire every 3 to 4 days and it would work out. Better than a gallon of oil a day.. which is what I was running previously.

JP


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## gimmegas

JP11 said:


> I'm a fan of more storage.. less frequent burns. A 1k gallon tank would take up 40" wide or so.. before insulation.. so call it 4' wide to be safe. 20' long plus a few inches. You could use the storage ABOVE that tank.. You wouldn't want to schlep wood up on top of that tank, being 4' tall.. but it would be good infrequent use storage space.
> 
> Chucking wood down a bulkhead is ok.. but then you gotta stack it again. If you had something that was, roll in, roll out.. you could come up with some cart or pallet based system. I envision something like a garage on one end of the house.. and a wood boiler/storage on the other end of the house. You wouldn't need frequent access for wood.. but you sure want it easy.
> 
> JP


I hear you, man. I'm all about easy, but my plan includes hunting, fishing, gardening and drinking home brew. Stacking wood may be the only thing I do that keeps me in shape.


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## gimmegas

JP11 said:


> As for DHW.. mine is a zone off my boiler. Indirect tank is heated via wood boiler tanks if tanks are above 135 degrees. Whole house is radiant.. so i can use temps down that low, unlike baseboards. I allow my storage temp a wide swing.. from 195 down to 135 degrees.
> 
> I did use wood heat for domestic hot water this summer. I wasn't done insulating yet. I think I could run one fire every 3 to 4 days and it would work out. Better than a gallon of oil a day.. which is what I was running previously.
> 
> JP


JP, glad you like the radiant idea. What type of flooring do you have? I understand ceramic does the best for transfer of heat, but I'm planning on pine boards. Any thoughts? Sounds like you are just getting done w/ new construction?


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## kopeck

I haven't see ReVision Heat mentioned yet, you should give them a call.

http://www.revisionheat.com/

They've been doing this stuff for a long time and are a top notch group. 

They carry Tarm & Froling wood boilers and pellet boiler and are also importing they're own Kedel pellet boilers.  I don't know if you've looked at pellets but if you are planning on buying wood (if you don't have your a "back 40" to cut your own wood) I would seriously look at them as an option.

Tarm and Froling are also very good boilers.  The Froling is sort of a wood buring space ship, the Tarm is not quite as high tech but a bit more refined them some of the other units you will see around.  Not to say there aren't other units that are as good, there are you should talk to Henfruit he sells Vigas which seems like a really nice unit.

There's options and there's really good folks to deal with here in Maine!

K


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## JP11

gimmegas said:


> JP, glad you like the radiant idea. What type of flooring do you have? I understand ceramic does the best for transfer of heat, but I'm planning on pine boards. Any thoughts? Sounds like you are just getting done w/ new construction?


 
I have radiant in the concrete foundation.  

First floor has staple up under subfloor.  Ceramic tile in much of house.. laminate wood in the rest.

Been in the house for almost 5.  boiler is a this year addition.

JP


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## ozzie88

gimmegas said:


> Thanks for checkin', JP. Trusting is good but verifying is better.


 That web site is from 2008,few years behind new laws.


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## gimmegas

Hey, Ozzie. Thank you. I guess the main thing is that you can vent both systems through the same hole which is a very good thing.


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## gimmegas

kopeck said:


> I haven't see ReVision Heat mentioned yet, you should give them a call.
> 
> http://www.revisionheat.com/
> 
> They've been doing this stuff for a long time and are a top notch group.
> 
> They carry Tarm & Froling wood boilers and pellet boiler and are also importing they're own Kedel pellet boilers. I don't know if you've looked at pellets but if you are planning on buying wood (if you don't have your a "back 40" to cut your own wood) I would seriously look at them as an option.
> 
> Tarm and Froling are also very good boilers. The Froling is sort of a wood buring space ship, the Tarm is not quite as high tech but a bit more refined them some of the other units you will see around. Not to say there aren't other units that are as good, there are you should talk to Henfruit he sells Vigas which seems like a really nice unit.
> 
> There's options and there's really good folks to deal with here in Maine!
> 
> K


OK. I will give them a look. Good to know there are options in Maine. I have not looked at the pellet idea as my options for gathering wood on the cheap are good. I'll cut, haul, split and stack my own.  Can these boilers burn softwood?? It would not be my first choice and would never burn it in a plain wood stove other than for kindling. Just wondering??


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## kopeck

gimmegas said:


> OK. I will give them a look. Good to know there are options in Maine. I have not looked at the pellet idea as my options for gathering wood on the cheap are good. I'll cut, haul, split and stack my own. Can these boilers burn softwood?? It would not be my first choice and would never burn it in a plain wood stove other than for kindling. Just wondering??


 
Yup, you just don't get as much heat per pound (ie not as many BTU per stick).  Some of the guys on here, mostly Canadians, burn softwood exclusively.

You're going to find the boilers from ReVision are going to cost more then say and EKO or BioMass but you do get what you pay for IMHO.  Not saying the EKO wont heat your house, it will, and a lot of guys here put them to good use, but the designs are a bit more refined.  One thing I love is how my boiler will not smoke you out of the house if you open the loading door while it's running.  No bypass levers, just punch a button, start the fire, load 'er up and walk away.

Also, like some others have suggested, go with storage. 

K


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## gimmegas

I just looked at Henfruit's web page. I will likely give him a call. Do you know people w/  a Vigas? I see JP11 has one w/ 1000 gal of storage. I thought that was a lot but he says it cuts down on the the need to keep throwing wood in. For a 2500 sq ft house, is that adequate? More than enough?? Good to know about the softwood. I would have been concerned w/ the moisture/creosote. Thanks.
Gimme


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## gimmegas

JP11 said:


> I have radiant in the concrete foundation.
> 
> First floor has staple up under subfloor. Ceramic tile in much of house.. laminate wood in the rest.
> 
> Been in the house for almost 5. boiler is a this year addition.
> 
> JP


JP. How does the radiant in the foundation work? I would assume that once  the concrete heats up it retains heat more than other materials? Do you have a slab? basement? I guess once the material heats up, it doesn't matter what the material is as long as you have the capacity to keep it that way and perhaps another reason why you like a lot of storage? I see you have a Vigas -Pros? Cons? You might have mentioned already, but what is your square footage you are heating? Thank you, 
Gimme


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## kopeck

I've seen a Vigas running in a trailer, it was cool but not the best "real world" example.  That being said the Lambda Vigas would be high on my list now.

Storage not only means less loading but more efficient burning.  Think of it this way, storage allow your boiler to burn at full tilt, less idling means less wasted heat, less wasted means less wood burned!  That also plays into your question about softwood, the gasifcation eliminates the creosote problems, that is as long as it's happening.  Idling means that you're not gassing...

Pretty much I load my boiler twice a day during the winter.  When it get warmer then it once a day, once every other day and so on.  With out storage you would need to keep a fire going all the time...let just say I like storage.

1000 gallons is more or less the norm.  I use a 820 gallon heat bank from American Solartechnics which seems to do the trick.  They're made here in Maine, you might want to check them out.  Tom, the owner of AST,  is also here on the board.

K


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## mikefrommaine

K, you have a froling or tarm?

Gimme, you will find that gasser owners break down into several groups:

In a shed vs in the house
Storage vs let it idle
Lambda vs non

All have their pros and cons.


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## kopeck

Tarm Solo Innova 30.

I like it a lot.

I would also like to add that I looked at everything when I was trying to figure out what to buy.  I'm sort of nutty on the research bit, I drove my wife nuts.  When I first started looking I thought a GreenWood was the ticket...I'm glad I didn't bite right away.  Then I started to look at Econoburns, which seemed nice but there wasn't a local dealer and honestly seemed kind of pricy (to me).  Then it was EKO/Biomass/Paxos vs Tarms & Frolings.  The Froling ended up being more then I could afford and the Tarm had features that I really liked.  It was a nice happy medium, had features that I wanted at a price I could afford.  The Vigas showed around the time I was settling on the Tarm, I think I would give them a good look as well.

If I was building new I would have looked at a Garn.

The other X factor is local support which was far away the best with the Tarm.

K

Edited: Expanded on topic.


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## JP11

gimmegas said:


> JP. How does the radiant in the foundation work? I would assume that once the concrete heats up it retains heat more than other materials? Do you have a slab? basement? I guess once the material heats up, it doesn't matter what the material is as long as you have the capacity to keep it that way and perhaps another reason why you like a lot of storage? I see you have a Vigas -Pros? Cons? You might have mentioned already, but what is your square footage you are heating? Thank you,
> Gimme


It works great.   Really lends itself to wood heat too, as it uses 110 degree water.. So it's mixing down the temps.

It's sort of, set it, and forget it. Very slow to respond.  It's a basement.

I'm heating 6k sf.  1900 of basement slab.  1200 of garage and utility room slab.  Same amounts staple up radiant on 1st floor.  That runs at 140 degrees.

Very happy with the vigas.  I have zero complaints.  In my opinion... a lot of these boilers are very similar.  They all do the same stuff.  I'm VERY happy with how easy and quick the Vigas is to clean out.

The biggest thing IMHO is the guy who designs the system.  If you don't get the piping and the flow rates and pipe sizes right..... it's like trying to make a race car go with no wheels on it.

I can't say enough good things about Mark at AHONA.  I've never seen anyone on here say a bad word about him. THAT is saying something in the internet age.  I spoke to him at the fair for two years before I spent a penny with him.  He answered my questions both before and after the sale.

You're doing the right thing.. KEEP READING and learning.  Go take a look at a few guys setups.  I've shown a couple guys mine.  You'll avoid others mistakes that way.

JP


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## maple1

On the size of space thing, my whole system - boilers, storage tanks, & 6 cords of wood - is sitting in a 14 x 24 footprint. Thats with room for walking around, and it also includes my water pump & tank, and old oil tank which will be removed in the spring. 13 x 30 should be quite adequate. If you're in the planning stages, try to lay things out assuming no power if possible. That will allow you to try to get by in a power outage by convection. Boiler down low in the basement, top of storage slightly higher - then your zones above all that. It will also help greatly for overheat protection issues. Also, if you wouldn't be using the propane for anything else and wouldn't be using backup heat much at all, maybe consider an electric boiler instead. But propane would likely be the better choice if you have other uses for it or would be away in winter periodically.


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## ozzie88

kopeck said:


> I've seen a Vigas running in a trailer, it was cool but not the best "real world" example. That being said the Lambda Vigas would be high on my list now.
> 
> Storage not only means less loading but more efficient burning. Think of it this way, storage allow your boiler to burn at full tilt, less idling means less wasted heat, less wasted means less wood burned! That also plays into your question about softwood, the gasifcation eliminates the creosote problems, that is as long as it's happening. Idling means that you're not gassing...
> 
> Pretty much I load my boiler twice a day during the winter. When it get warmer then it once a day, once every other day and so on. With out storage you would need to keep a fire going all the time...let just say I like storage.
> 
> 1000 gallons is more or less the norm. I use a 820 gallon heat bank from American Solartechnics which seems to do the trick. They're made here in Maine, you might want to check them out. Tom, the owner of AST, is also here on the board.
> 
> K


 Amen, I would say storage is a must,has alot less time messing with stove,burns better, I had a wood boiler before and no storage,wow,AWAYS messing with it,clean out flue every 3 weeks, now with gasser I clean once a year then it really dont need it,  fire it once or twice a day,storage now nice going 3days in shoulder weather without running stove,   Learn from guys on here,we have made mistakes so you wont have to,lol


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## Fred61

I'm surprised by how many store wood in their basement. I roll my Harbor Freight wood cart out to the woodshed every time I go light a fire. Just part of the job. Not difficult!  I don't want any wood in my basement. I'm even concerned about the few sticks that are left on the cart if I happen to bring in too much.





80 feet to woodsheds from basement. Paved nearly all the way. The one on the right is a dog kennel left behind by the previous owner.


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## maple1

What is it that you're concerned about?


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## Fred61

maple1 said:


> What is it that you're concerned about?


 
Critters!


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## kopeck

My house has had wood stored inside for hundreds of years.  Before the remodel it was in the attached wood shed, after that the basement.

We never had any trouble...


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## Fred61

I guess it's whatever we're comfortable with. I am kind of strange. I don't do Twitter, I don't do Facebook and I've never had chicken nuggets.


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## maple1

Fred61 said:


> I guess it's whatever we're comfortable with. I am kind of strange. I don't do Twitter, I don't do Facebook and I've never had chicken nuggets.


 
Guilty on the nuggets - but likewise on the other two.


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## mikefrommaine

Same here, but it's been a few decades for the nuggets


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## Fred61

maple1 said:


> Guilty on the nuggets


 
Can anybody tell me what they are?


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## mikefrommaine

Fred61 said:


> Can anybody tell me what they are?


Don't know but can't be any worse than pink slime in the burgers.


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## kopeck

Fred61 said:


> Can anybody tell me what they are?


 
Dunno but I bet they would gassify!

I'm not a twit but I do have a bookface account.

For what it's worth I don't care for the mess in my basement but it's better then walking out in a blizzard. 

I'm trying half cord racks this year.  Keep a cord or so in the basement and the reset can stay out in the shed until I need it.  Undoubtedly that means I'll run out on the coldest day of the year and be refilling my racks and grumbling to my self all the while...

K


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## maple1

Fred61 said:


> Can anybody tell me what they are?


 
Ground up chicken fibres pressed into golf ball sized nuggets - except kinda flattened, not round - with a crunchy golden brown exterior.

Kind of like wood pellets, only bigger & tastier.

Not that I've tasted wood pellets...


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## Fred61

maple1 said:


> Ground up chicken fibres pressed into golf ball sized nuggets - except kinda flattened, not round


 
I knew there was a reason not to eat them. I went to a chicken bar-b-que one day and the guy cooking was turning the chicken halves with gloved hands, I'll bet that those gloves were the tastiest things there but I still ordered the chicken.


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## gimmegas

kopeck said:


> I've seen a Vigas running in a trailer, it was cool but not the best "real world" example. That being said the Lambda Vigas would be high on my list now.
> 
> Storage not only means less loading but more efficient burning. Think of it this way, storage allow your boiler to burn at full tilt, less idling means less wasted heat, less wasted means less wood burned! That also plays into your question about softwood, the gasifcation eliminates the creosote problems, that is as long as it's happening. Idling means that you're not gassing...
> 
> Pretty much I load my boiler twice a day during the winter. When it get warmer then it once a day, once every other day and so on. With out storage you would need to keep a fire going all the time...let just say I like storage.
> 
> 1000 gallons is more or less the norm. I use a 820 gallon heat bank from American Solartechnics which seems to do the trick. They're made here in Maine, you might want to check them out. Tom, the owner of AST, is also here on the board.
> 
> K


K- good stuff on rationale for storage. Less waste = better use of resources. I like that formula. If they make American Solartechnics in Maine, I'm all over it. How do I get in touch w/ Tom?


----------



## maple1

Find where he's posted on the board (search for 'Tom In Maine') - or just do a member search - and start a conversation with him.


----------



## gimmegas

mikefrommaine said:


> K, you have a froling or tarm?
> 
> Gimme, you will find that gasser owners break down into several groups:
> 
> In a shed vs in the house
> Storage vs let it idle
> Lambda vs non
> 
> All have their pros and cons.


MFM, could you or anyone else educate me on Lambda? I just thought it was a Greek letter 'til now? I'm definitely in the house as long as it (boiler) doesn't smoke it up. Thanks- Gimme


----------



## maple1

Lambda boilers incorprate an oxygen sensor in the flue pipe, and automatically regulate air intake into the primary & secondary chambers depending on oxygen output.


----------



## gimmegas

kopeck said:


> Tarm Solo Innova 30.
> 
> I like it a lot.
> 
> I would also like to add that I looked at everything when I was trying to figure out what to buy. I'm sort of nutty on the research bit, I drove my wife nuts. When I first started looking I thought a GreenWood was the ticket...I'm glad I didn't bite right away. Then I started to look at Econoburns, which seemed nice but there wasn't a local dealer and honestly seemed kind of pricy (to me). Then it was EKO/Biomass/Paxos vs Tarms & Frolings. The Froling ended up being more then I could afford and the Tarm had features that I really liked. It was a nice happy medium, had features that I wanted at a price I could afford. The Vigas showed around the time I was settling on the Tarm, I think I would give them a good look as well.
> 
> If I was building new I would have looked at a Garn.
> 
> The other X factor is local support which was far away the best with the Tarm.
> 
> K
> 
> Edited: Expanded on topic.


K, who has Tarm and where are they? Garn, anyone up there w/ them? OK. Now I need to know a little about $ since you brought it up. How much dinero do I need to put the beast in the basement, w/ 800-1000 gal storage and radiant heat in say a 30x 40 basement, same dimension first floor and a loft of 30 x 20? (All new const.) Anyone out there can chime in, but since you did the radiant heat thing, you might be able to give me a good guestimate. Thanks- G.


----------



## gimmegas

JP11 said:


> It works great. Really lends itself to wood heat too, as it uses 110 degree water.. So it's mixing down the temps.
> 
> It's sort of, set it, and forget it. Very slow to respond. It's a basement.
> 
> I'm heating 6k sf. 1900 of basement slab. 1200 of garage and utility room slab. Same amounts staple up radiant on 1st floor. That runs at 140 degrees.
> 
> Very happy with the vigas. I have zero complaints. In my opinion... a lot of these boilers are very similar. They all do the same stuff. I'm VERY happy with how easy and quick the Vigas is to clean out.
> 
> The biggest thing IMHO is the guy who designs the system. If you don't get the piping and the flow rates and pipe sizes right..... it's like trying to make a race car go with no wheels on it.
> 
> I can't say enough good things about Mark at AHONA. I've never seen anyone on here say a bad word about him. THAT is saying something in the internet age. I spoke to him at the fair for two years before I spent a penny with him. He answered my questions both before and after the sale.
> 
> You're doing the right thing.. KEEP READING and learning. Go take a look at a few guys setups. I've shown a couple guys mine. You'll avoid others mistakes that way.
> 
> JP





JP11 said:


> It works great. Really lends itself to wood heat too, as it uses 110 degree water.. So it's mixing down the temps.
> 
> It's sort of, set it, and forget it. Very slow to respond. It's a basement.
> 
> I'm heating 6k sf. 1900 of basement slab. 1200 of garage and utility room slab. Same amounts staple up radiant on 1st floor. That runs at 140 degrees.
> 
> Very happy with the vigas. I have zero complaints. In my opinion... a lot of these boilers are very similar. They all do the same stuff. I'm VERY happy with how easy and quick the Vigas is to clean out.
> 
> The biggest thing IMHO is the guy who designs the system. If you don't get the piping and the flow rates and pipe sizes right..... it's like trying to make a race car go with no wheels on it.
> 
> I can't say enough good things about Mark at AHONA. I've never seen anyone on here say a bad word about him. THAT is saying something in the internet age. I spoke to him at the fair for two years before I spent a penny with him. He answered my questions both before and after the sale.
> 
> You're doing the right thing.. KEEP READING and learning. Go take a look at a few guys setups. I've shown a couple guys mine. You'll avoid others mistakes that way.
> 
> JP


JP, I sent this in response to Kopeck, which was only part right. YOU did the Radiant, so this (radiant part) applies more to YOU. (apologies to K, I need another home brew) who has Tarm and where are they? Garn, anyone up there w/ them? OK. Now I need to know a little about $ since you brought it up. How much dinero do I need to put the beast in the basement, w/ 800-1000 gal storage and radiant heat in say a 30x 40 basement, same dimension first floor and a loft of 30 x 20? (All new const.) Anyone out there can chime in, but since you did the radiant heat thing, you might be able to give me a good guestimate. Thanks- G.​


----------



## gimmegas

maple1 said:


> Lambda boilers incorprate an oxygen sensor in the flue pipe, and automatically regulate air intake into the primary & secondary chambers depending on oxygen output.


Thanks, Maple. I guess it's a good thing and would assume it's an extra? Worth the cash to get it? Yes? No? Anyone........


----------



## JP11

Sorry.. It's been about six years since I put in the radiant.  I did A LOT of it when I was doing it.  I got really good at it.. just about  the time I was finished.  

All I know is I spent WAY TOO MUCH on the house.  

Sorry.  I bet some guys on here are smart enough to get you started.  You could probably help by coming up with how many zones you want.  You could start pricing manifolds, pumps, the pipe.. and build up a list. 

There's A TON of labor in laying out the pipes and tying it down to grid to keep it from floating during your concrete pour.  You could save a lot there. 

Similar.. there's a lot of labor to put the pipes stapled up under your subfloor.  I did not use the transfer plates, but borrowed my plumbers special stapler that holds the pipe tight, but lets it move a bit side to side.

JP


----------



## JP11

If you are only asking about cost of the wood boiler itself... I had scrounged tanks that cost me next to nothing.  I think all in I was in the 13 to 14k dollar range.  Wood only add on.  That's not any of the costs of my original oil boiler or controls or radiant.


----------



## maple1

Lambda: Yes, it's extra. I suspect generally that those who have it say its worth it, and those that don't say they're fine without it & it's not worth the extra.

It does add complexity and more potential for things to fail I suppose. Mechanical simplicity and minimal gadgetry & electricity dependance was a primary consideration for me, everyones primary considerations will differ.


----------



## gimmegas

maple1 said:


> On the size of space thing, my whole system - boilers, storage tanks, & 6 cords of wood - is sitting in a 14 x 24 footprint. Thats with room for walking around, and it also includes my water pump & tank, and old oil tank which will be removed in the spring. 13 x 30 should be quite adequate. If you're in the planning stages, try to lay things out assuming no power if possible. That will allow you to try to get by in a power outage by convection. Boiler down low in the basement, top of storage slightly higher - then your zones above all that. It will also help greatly for overheat protection issues. Also, if you wouldn't be using the propane for anything else and wouldn't be using backup heat much at all, maybe consider an electric boiler instead. But propane would likely be the better choice if you have other uses for it or would be away in winter periodically.


Maple, Also good to know I'm in the right neighborhood w/ the space. I'd hate to have it all done and then say Oh____! Yes, fortunately my wife likes to cook, and so propane seems like a good choice based on our location- out in the boonies. May put a propane heater in the great room instead of having to lug wood in and won't have to worry about another chimney, etc. Any thoughts on that...


----------



## gimmegas

JP11 said:


> If you are only asking about cost of the wood boiler itself... I had scrounged tanks that cost me next to nothing. I think all in I was in the 13 to 14k dollar range. Wood only add on. That's not any of the costs of my original oil boiler or controls or radiant.


Did you have radiant w/ your oil? and then went to wood??


----------



## gimmegas

maple1 said:


> Lambda: Yes, it's extra. I suspect generally that those who have it say its worth it, and those that don't say they're fine without it & it's not worth the extra.
> 
> It does add complexity and more potential for things to fail I suppose. Mechanical simplicity and minimal gadgetry & electricity dependance was a primary consideration for me, everyones primary considerations will differ.


Thanks, Maple. I'll probably cross it off my must have list.


----------



## gimmegas

maple1 said:


> Find where he's posted on the board (search for 'Tom In Maine') - or just do a member search - and start a conversation with him.


Maple, got it Thank you.


----------



## gimmegas

ozzie88 said:


> Amen, I would say storage is a must,has alot less time messing with stove,burns better, I had a wood boiler before and no storage,wow,AWAYS messing with it,clean out flue every 3 weeks, now with gasser I clean once a year then it really dont need it, fire it once or twice a day,storage now nice going 3days in shoulder weather without running stove, Learn from guys on here,we have made mistakes so you wont have to,lol


Ozzie, OK. I'm sold on the storage thing. Thanks, neighbor.


----------



## Fred61

gimmegas said:


> Thanks, Maple. I guess it's a good thing and would assume it's an extra? Worth the cash to get it? Yes? No? Anyone........


 
Boy, it's hard to say if these advances are worth it or not. The guy that puts in an old pot belly wood stove full of holes and is alot warmer loves the thing. The guy that sold it to him hated it and upgraded to a Vermont Castings loves it. The guy that upgraded from a Vermont Castings stove installs an outdoor wood boiler and loves it. In a few years he upgrades to a gasser and loves it. Who would want more? Now the lamda. It may depend on your particular situation as to whether these advances are good for you so anyone that has only seen one side is basically unqualified to answer the question.
I'm one of the few on this forum that has operated two different gassers so I feel I'm qualified to compare these two but can't comment on others. So when a guy with a particular gasser loves his, what does it mean?


----------



## gimmegas

JP11 said:


> Sorry.. It's been about six years since I put in the radiant. I did A LOT of it when I was doing it. I got really good at it.. just about the time I was finished.
> 
> All I know is I spent WAY TOO MUCH on the house.
> 
> Sorry. I bet some guys on here are smart enough to get you started. You could probably help by coming up with how many zones you want. You could start pricing manifolds, pumps, the pipe.. and build up a list.
> 
> There's A TON of labor in laying out the pipes and tying it down to grid to keep it from floating during your concrete pour. You could save a lot there.
> 
> Similar.. there's a lot of labor to put the pipes stapled up under your subfloor. I did not use the transfer plates, but borrowed my plumbers special stapler that holds the pipe tight, but lets it move a bit side to side.
> 
> JP


UNfortunately, JP, I will have to continue to work during construction so i won't be much help w/ the installation of the radiant. Obviously you think it (radiant) is worth the time and $ in the long run. 6k is a lot of sq ft!! Do you think I could get by w/o doing the basement and just do radiant in the main floors? How much wood/yr do you burn??


----------



## kopeck

Revision Heat, they're in Portland and Brewer.

Very good folks to deal with.  Don't discount local parts/support!  I don't know about Garn, you would have to do so leg work there.

I have 10k in mine more or less, probably a little more as there's lots of odds and ends that get added as you go but you never think about.  I did the install my self so that helped keep  the bill down.

K


----------



## JP11

You would actually do the opposite.  Bury the pipe in the concrete. It's the most efficient.. and a GREAT use of wood boiler storage water.. as you could heat your tanks to 195.. then run em all the way down to 100 or so.  (the radiant in the concrete runs at 100 to 110 degrees or so.)

It's very slow to respond.. you set the thermostat and forget it.  The heat "lost" from your basement would be heat gained by your first floor.

I'm not very well versed on radiators.. but I think there's some newer stuff out there that would work for baseboards or wall radiators that would work on your first floor.  My first floor is running 140 degree water.. so I stop using my wood boiler, and the oil boiler comes on at 135 degrees.

This is my first winter.. but I'm guessing 8 to 10 cords.  I've got a lot of softwoods that were blown down during Irene.. so I'm guessing I'll be on the high side this year.  I ran over 1500 gallons of oil last winter.. and it was a mild one!!  (I was running about 70% my own homeade fuel made from french fry grease... so the cost sting wasn't as bad)

over 6k sf heated.  Includes my wife's attached photo studio.  Keeping it even warmer this year.. wood boiler is great.

JP


----------



## gimmegas

Fred61 said:


> Can anybody tell me what they are?


Fred, I think I have had them, but I can't remember when. From what I recall, they were small, bite sizeish pieces of meat (purportedly chicken, but who really knows for sure) that are deep fried in hydrogenated oil w/ a battered crust. They are designed to cater to the individual who is too lazy to cook for themselves and who does not mind dying from a long slow process called atherosclerosis (clogged, hardened arteries) which is generally a painless process but with a painful terminal end. They probably would be better in the boiler than in you but would be costly to heat your home w/.


----------



## maple1

Fred61 said:


> Boy, it's hard to say if these advances are worth it or not. The guy that puts in an old pot belly wood stove full of holes and is alot warmer loves the thing. The guy that sold it to him hated it and upgraded to a Vermont Castings loves it. The guy that upgraded from a Vermont Castings stove installs an outdoor wood boiler and loves it. In a few years he upgrades to a gasser and loves it. Who would want more? Now the lamda. It may depend on your particular situation as to whether these advances are good for you so anyone that has only seen one side is basically unqualified to answer the question.
> I'm one of the few on this forum that has operated two different gassers so I feel I'm qualified to compare these two but can't comment on others. So when a guy with a particular gasser loves his, what does it mean?


 
I'll just add to my last comments, that those comments were on considerations when I made my decision.

After a couple of months of operation, I have a bit more appreciation for what lambda controls could add to operational efficiencies. For example, there are times when cold starting mine that I need to play with things until the thing gets up to speed. That depends on the wood I've got in it, how long its been since the last burn, the weather outside, etc.. I have found that sometimes, it takes quite a while for it to spool up - getting the coal bed established, the refractory & chimney up to temp, and a good draft going. Sometimes, the whole fire will almost go out when I close the fire door & the bypass. If that's going on, I crack the fire door just a hair to let more air into the fire box (primary chamber) until the secondary chamber & refractory gets up to temps & everything gets humping along like it should be. I also usually leave the ash door open a bit until I get up to speed. Mine is a very simple unit, with next to no air adjustments on it - it burns very well once it gets itself going, and it's sort of locked into tune for that. Getting up to speed, it could use some on-the-fly tuning adjustments.


----------



## gimmegas

kopeck said:


> Revision Heat, they're in Portland and Brewer.
> 
> Very good folks to deal with. Don't discount local parts/support! I don't know about Garn, you would have to do so leg work there.
> 
> I have 10k in mine more or less, probably a little more as there's lots of odds and ends that get added as you go but you never think about. I did the install my self so that helped keep the bill down.
> 
> K


Revision, eh. OK. I'll be in the Brewer neighborhood (relatively) so I will check them out. Thanks for the info. - Gimme


----------



## gimmegas

JP11 said:


> You would actually do the opposite. Bury the pipe in the concrete. It's the most efficient.. and a GREAT use of wood boiler storage water.. as you could heat your tanks to 195.. then run em all the way down to 100 or so. (the radiant in the concrete runs at 100 to 110 degrees or so.)
> 
> It's very slow to respond.. you set the thermostat and forget it. The heat "lost" from your basement would be heat gained by your first floor.
> 
> I'm not very well versed on radiators.. but I think there's some newer stuff out there that would work for baseboards or wall radiators that would work on your first floor. My first floor is running 140 degree water.. so I stop using my wood boiler, and the oil boiler comes on at 135 degrees.
> 
> This is my first winter.. but I'm guessing 8 to 10 cords. I've got a lot of softwoods that were blown down during Irene.. so I'm guessing I'll be on the high side this year. I ran over 1500 gallons of oil last winter.. and it was a mild one!! (I was running about 70% my own homeade fuel made from french fry grease... so the cost sting wasn't as bad)
> 
> over 6k sf heated. Includes my wife's attached photo studio. Keeping it even warmer this year.. wood boiler is great.
> 
> JP


Alright. I'll consider that, but I'm just a little concerned about what might go wrong (it might be remote that it would) if something wears out, breaks or whatever in the concrete. I like to be able to get at whatever needs to be repaired. Ever hear of any horror stories like that? I'm not going to be heating nearly that space so I'm thinking the cords will be less, but then again I won't be burning oil, but maybe supplemental propane  as needed in the living room/loft area. Grease? Really??? Do you own a McDonalds? - Gimme


----------



## gimmegas

maple1 said:


> I'll just add to my last comments, that those comments were on considerations when I made my decision.
> 
> After a couple of months of operation, I have a bit more appreciation for what lambda controls could add to operational efficiencies. For example, there are times when cold starting mine that I need to play with things until the thing gets up to speed. That depends on the wood I've got in it, how long its been since the last burn, the weather outside, etc.. I have found that sometimes, it takes quite a while for it to spool up - getting the coal bed established, the refractory & chimney up to temp, and a good draft going. Sometimes, the whole fire will almost go out when I close the fire door & the bypass. If that's going on, I crack the fire door just a hair to let more air into the fire box (primary chamber) until the secondary chamber & refractory gets up to temps & everything gets humping along like it should be. I also usually leave the ash door open a bit until I get up to speed. Mine is a very simple unit, with next to no air adjustments on it - it burns very well once it gets itself going, and it's sort of locked into tune for that. Getting up to speed, it could use some on-the-fly tuning adjustments.


I've not heard of that unit before, Maple. Do you have baseboard? 'No fans' means you're not pushing air??


----------



## JP11

gimmegas said:


> Alright. I'll consider that, but I'm just a little concerned about what might go wrong (it might be remote that it would) if something wears out, breaks or whatever in the concrete. I like to be able to get at whatever needs to be repaired. Ever hear of any horror stories like that? I'm not going to be heating nearly that space so I'm thinking the cords will be less, but then again I won't be burning oil, but maybe supplemental propane as needed in the living room/loft area. Grease? Really??? Do you own a McDonalds? - Gimme


 
Kinda hard for plastic pipe to wear out with no movement.  There are manifolds, so you could shut off one loop if something happened.  You pump the lines full of high pressure air.. and then keep an eye on that air pressure when the concrete is going in and being finished.  If they popped it.. it would blow bubbles in the wet concrete.

No McDonalds.. but a neighbor owns a burger place.  He's meticulous about changing oil every 4 days.  I get almost 900gal a year from him.  I convert it to biodiesel at about 1.25 a gallon cost all in.  I've got an old mercedes that runs great on it about 8 months of the year.

JP


----------



## gimmegas

JP11 said:


> Kinda hard for plastic pipe to wear out with no movement. There are manifolds, so you could shut off one loop if something happened. You pump the lines full of high pressure air.. and then keep an eye on that air pressure when the concrete is going in and being finished. If they popped it.. it would blow bubbles in the wet concrete.
> 
> No McDonalds.. but a neighbor owns a burger place. He's meticulous about changing oil every 4 days. I get almost 900gal a year from him. I convert it to biodiesel at about 1.25 a gallon cost all in. I've got an old mercedes that runs great on it about 8 months of the year.
> 
> JP


JP, do you know anyone that has bored holes in the ground for heat (geotherm)? Just a thought.  Cost effective? Maybe not in the short term and in 30 years I'll be dead, so...


----------



## maple1

gimmegas said:


> I've not heard of that unit before, Maple. Do you have baseboard? 'No fans' means you're not pushing air??


 
Yes, I have baseboard, and no, I have no fans. Pushing or sucking. My chimney is my fan.


----------



## JP11

gimmegas said:


> JP, do you know anyone that has bored holes in the ground for heat (geotherm)? Just a thought. Cost effective? Maybe not in the short term and in 30 years I'll be dead, so...


 
I don't.  I think it's good for those in between'er states where they don't need a lot of heat, or a lot of cooling.  They use a fair amount of electricity pumping the water in and out of the wells.  They also use electric heat to "top up" the temps when they need it.

It hasn't caught on around here in Maine yet.  Not saying you CAN'T do it.. but I think it's like solar... REALLY long payback.. you gotta want it.

Me... I like to save money, and be independent.  IF it is green too... great.

JP


----------



## kopeck

gimmegas said:


> JP, do you know anyone that has bored holes in the ground for heat (geotherm)? Just a thought. Cost effective? Maybe not in the short term and in 30 years I'll be dead, so...


 
Not JP but Maine's not as ideal as some of our more southern states.  It also is a HUGE investment...

K


----------



## BoilerMan

As to the pex in concrete concern, I was there too, until I did some research.  PEX, (Cross linked Ploy Ethelene), was developed in the early 60s in europe for this exact purpose, radiant slabs, it was soon used for other heating purposes overseas as well.  There are installations that have been in operation since that time without problems.  We (americans) did radiant with soft copper during the construction boom after WWII, in Levittown and there was massive failure of the copper in the 70s.  Copper is eaten by the basic concrete in the presence of water (moisture).  Same reason that having that 3/8" oil line burried in the basement slab is a bad idea, think about it...... they did it all the time a few decades ago. 

After reading about the pex story and wet radiant technology (pex in concrete is referred to as a "wet" system) I did it in my house, I have 62 cubic yards of heated concrete in my slab.  Low temp heating is the way to go, no matter the heat source, oil, condensing gas, wood with storage, even geo.  All have HUGE efficiency gains from useing low temp water heat emitters. 

TS


----------



## gimmegas

JP11 said:


> I don't. I think it's good for those in between'er states where they don't need a lot of heat, or a lot of cooling. They use a fair amount of electricity pumping the water in and out of the wells. They also use electric heat to "top up" the temps when they need it.
> 
> It hasn't caught on around here in Maine yet. Not saying you CAN'T do it.. but I think it's like solar... REALLY long payback.. you gotta want it.
> 
> Me... I like to save money, and be independent. IF it is green too... great.
> 
> JP


Thanks for the reply, JP. I will cross that off my must have list as well. I would like to do it b/c I believe in trying but, like you, I like to save cash where I can.


----------



## gimmegas

kopeck said:


> Not JP but Maine's not as ideal as some of our more southern states. It also is a HUGE investment...
> 
> K


K, thanks. As I told JP, I might do it if I was wealthy, but based on what you guys are saying I should start playing the lottery if I want geo.


----------



## gimmegas

Taylor Sutherland said:


> As to the pex in concrete concern, I was there too, until I did some research. PEX, (Cross linked Ploy Ethelene), was developed in the early 60s in europe for this exact purpose, radiant slabs, it was soon used for other heating purposes overseas as well. There are installations that have been in operation since that time without problems. We (americans) did radiant with soft copper during the construction boom after WWII, in Levittown and there was massive failure of the copper in the 70s. Copper is eaten by the basic concrete in the presence of water (moisture). Same reason that having that 3/8" oil line burried in the basement slab is a bad idea, think about it...... they did it all the time a few decades ago.
> 
> After reading about the pex story and wet radiant technology (pex in concrete is referred to as a "wet" system) I did it in my house, I have 62 cubic yards of heated concrete in my slab. Low temp heating is the way to go, no matter the heat source, oil, condensing gas, wood with storage, even geo. All have HUGE efficiency gains from useing low temp water heat emitters.
> 
> TS


OK, TS. Now I at least know the terminology. Pex-crosslinked polyethylene..cool. I knew about radiant in subfloor, but it sounds like you and JP are sold on heating the concrete. Sounds  like an efficient way to go, but since I will still have to do the subfloors, I just would hope that the heat in the basement would relate to reduced heat on the main and in the loft. I'm guessing it would be the same principle as geothermal as the baseline temps in the basement will help out whatever is above it. The warmer the floor underneath, the easier it is to heat above?? JP was saying it's a great way to use storage as well. Do you have a tank for storage?


----------



## gimmegas

maple1 said:


> Yes, I have baseboard, and no, I have no fans. Pushing or sucking. My chimney is my fan.


OK, Maple. I will keep the baseboard idea in the possible category.


----------



## gimmegas

maple1 said:


> I'll just add to my last comments, that those comments were on considerations when I made my decision.
> 
> After a couple of months of operation, I have a bit more appreciation for what lambda controls could add to operational efficiencies. For example, there are times when cold starting mine that I need to play with things until the thing gets up to speed. That depends on the wood I've got in it, how long its been since the last burn, the weather outside, etc.. I have found that sometimes, it takes quite a while for it to spool up - getting the coal bed established, the refractory & chimney up to temp, and a good draft going. Sometimes, the whole fire will almost go out when I close the fire door & the bypass. If that's going on, I crack the fire door just a hair to let more air into the fire box (primary chamber) until the secondary chamber & refractory gets up to temps & everything gets humping along like it should be. I also usually leave the ash door open a bit until I get up to speed. Mine is a very simple unit, with next to no air adjustments on it - it burns very well once it gets itself going, and it's sort of locked into tune for that. Getting up to speed, it could use some on-the-fly tuning adjustments.


Maple, so you're saying before I cross it off my must have list, I should perhaps consider it? It can be an add-on, right? Thanks- Gimme


----------



## JP11

gimmegas said:


> JP was saying it's a great way to use storage as well. Do you have a tank for storage?


 
Yes.. I still have tanks of water for storage.  BUT..  the radiant in the concrete uses 105 to 110 degree water.  Thus you can "use" your tanks from 195 degrees ALL the way down to that 105 temp.

Were I building new.. I might do a sidearm or more like a coil in the tank to pre heat the dhw.  Then.. run it thru an on demand tankless.  Then.. you could not burn wood in the summer if you didn't want.. and would use not much energy for DHW only.

In my setup.. I can use my storage from 195 to 135.  I have my DHW tank set to 132 degrees.   If I didn't have that indirect tank.. the method I said above MIGHT make me run the storage tanks lower.  

BUT.. my upstairs radiant runs at 140 degrees... never tried to run it on 110 degree water.  It would let me stretch the burns out even further though.

Just more things to ponder and plan.

JP


----------



## BoilerMan

gimmegas said:


> OK, TS. Now I at least know the terminology. Pex-crosslinked polyethylene..cool. I knew about radiant in subfloor, but it sounds like you and JP are sold on heating the concrete. Sounds like an efficient way to go, but since I will still have to do the subfloors, I just would hope that the heat in the basement would relate to reduced heat on the main and in the loft. I'm guessing it would be the same principle as geothermal as the baseline temps in the basement will help out whatever is above it. The warmer the floor underneath, the easier it is to heat above?? JP was saying it's a great way to use storage as well. Do you have a tank for storage?


 
My sotrage is my thick concrete slab.  8" thick, with a super insulated house on it.  I build one fire a day if the temps are above zero, just like someone with a water tank for storage. 

Part of my house is one story, and part is two story, all on heated slab.  The second story is above heated area, but still needs some type of heat emitters, I used some old cast iron radiators as they too, if sized correctly, are low temp heat emitters.  You can get HO baseboard, panel radiators, or pex with aluminum plates in the floor, walls, or ceiling.  Just keep it all low temp, no high temp baseboard, or you'll be stuck with a high temp heat source.

TS


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