# Vedolux 37 Install



## Carprofessor (Aug 16, 2014)

Thanks to everyone who provided advice to help me select a boiler.  I have purchased a Varmebaronen Vedolux 37 and will install it with 2 500 gal. repurposed propane tanks.  The boiler and the tank are installed in a lean-to style shed that is attached to the back of my attached garage.  This is an ideal location because the current propane boiler is in the basement, on the other side of the wall from the wood boiler.  There is plenty of room for firewood in the shed plus I can walk out of the house, through the garage and into the shed without going outside.   Plan to do this in my slippers!

I'd like to share some of the progress I have made.  I welcome all constructive comments and opinions, but understand that some things are done and not likely to get re-done unless there is a serious error.  Thanks for reading.

Maybe a good place to start is to show you the plan that I am following.  Dean at Smokeless Heat helped me develop the schematic below.


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## Coal Reaper (Aug 16, 2014)

Very familiar...


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## Carprofessor (Aug 17, 2014)

Before taking delivery of the 2 500 gallon propane tanks that will provide thermal storage I had to do a lot of prep work in the shed.  The shed is 8 x 35 and is sitting on concrete posts.  I have stored firewood in it for several years and over time the wall has moved out.  I dug up the dirt floor and wrapped steel bands around each post.  I welded threaded rod on the bands and attached them to a steel bar that was anchored to the garage foundation.  Drawing down on the threaded rod straightened the wall out and it won't move again!


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## Carprofessor (Aug 17, 2014)

I was told that positioning the thermal storage tanks vertically was preferred due to improved stratification properties.  Also, positioning them horizontally was a waste of valuable space in the shed.  Problem... the tanks are 10' long and the shed is 8' tall.  I dug a pit and poured a 4x8 concrete pad 6" thick to provide the needed overhead clearance.


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## Carprofessor (Aug 17, 2014)

I needed to insulate the shed to prevent freezing if the boiler is off for any prolonged time and to keep the storage water from cooling as much as possible.  I priced spray foam but it was quite expensive.  I found used sheets of Styrofoam (4x8x3") and used that.  I know it doesn't have the same R value as spray foam but it was so cheap I put 6" in the ceiling and around the storage tanks.  Worked out to almost 10x cheaper.  Looked odd driving down the highway though.


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## Carprofessor (Aug 17, 2014)

This was the day the storage tanks were delivered.  Ted Kestor supplied and welded the ports on them.  You can see were he cut a large square section out  to get inside to clean them.  He also rinses them inside with muriatic acid.    Ted normally welds legs on them but my concern with height as well as the overall footprint led me to having him weld car tire rims on the bottom.  This resulted in only a 3" increase in height and no increase in the foot print.  I saved a bit of money by skipping the paint job.  Your not going to see them once they are installed.

The guys in the picture are still my friends, so the install must have gone well!.  We used the chain hoist to lift them off the trailer.  I threw a bunch of 2x6's down and moved them using two large oak rollers.  This worked very well.  Once placed at the end of the shed they had to be stood upright on the concrete pad.  With the 4 of us plus Ted and his son there was no effort to stand them up.


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## Carprofessor (Aug 17, 2014)

This is where I am today.  The storage tanks are in place and have been plumbed part way with 1-1/4 galvanized pipe.  The pipe terminates on the house side and the boiler side with ball valves.  I will make the connections to the boiler and the primary loop with copper  I filled the tanks and placed them under 40 psi for a few days.  No leaks.  It looks like I will need 2 SX110 expansion tanks that will be stacked in the far end. I placed 65  24x24 patio blocks down for a floor. The chimney connection on the boiler has been modified from a horizontal pipe connection to a vertical one.    I bought 3 lengths of brand new insulated chimney in a yard sale for a great price.  The roof flashing, ceiling support and rain cap are on order and should be here this week.  I picked up enough used tin roofing to line the inside of shed.


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## arngnick (Aug 17, 2014)

Awesome pictures!! Looks like a very nice setup...its a lot of work but I think you will be happy not too much I see that I would do different. I have been burning all summer for domestic water and love it!


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## maple1 (Aug 17, 2014)

You are going to love the heat that thing will pump out.

And, after the 'new car' thing wears off in a year or so, really appreciate how easy it is to clean.

Curious on the galvanized though - I always had the impression it was a no no for boiler piping? But I'm no pro.


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## Carprofessor (Aug 17, 2014)

maple1 said:


> You are going to love the heat that thing will pump out.
> 
> And, after the 'new car' thing wears off in a year or so, really appreciate how easy it is to clean.
> 
> Curious on the galvanized though - I always had the impression it was a no no for boiler piping? But I'm no pro.





Thanks for your comments.  I hadn't heard anything about a disadvantage with galvanized.  I'm no expert either, and I thought spending more money on galvanized was better than black iron.  I found the thread below that discusses this.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/black-iron-and-galvanized-pipe.13057/

It seems that black iron would have been fine.  Galvanized and corrosion can be a problem when used with glycol (I'm not) or when mixed metals are used.  I used all galvanized.  There can be a corrosion problem where I switch to copper, but the thread says place a cast or bronze union in the line before the switch.  I have bronze ball valves at the end of each galvanized run before copper starts, so maybe I'm ok??


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## arngnick (Aug 17, 2014)

Just looking at your layout some more. Do you have overheat protection? With the boiler being nearly the highest component in the system you will have limited thermo siphon going on.


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## Clarkbug (Aug 17, 2014)

I was going to ask the same question as arngnick, make sure you have an overheat/dump loop.  

Also, my varm is rated to 1.5 bar, not 30 psi, so take that into account with your expansion tank sizing. Are you piping the tanks reverse-return to make sure they both fill?  Or adding a balancing valve in there to help divert the flow?


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## Carprofessor (Aug 18, 2014)

arngnick said:


> Just looking at your layout some more. Do you have overheat protection? With the boiler being nearly the highest component in the system you will have limited thermo siphon going on.



A very good point.  There is a 3-1/2' rise from the outlet port of the boiler to the top of the storage tank and a 3-1/2' drop from the inlet port on the boiler to the bottom of the storage tank.  I don't know what the minimum requirements would be to create thermo syphoning.  Is there doubt this will occur?


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## maple1 (Aug 18, 2014)

Just to follow up on a couple more things mentioned above, for expansion I have one 110 gallon propane tank (no diapraghm), to handle my 660 gallons. It is lots, I only get a rise of maybe 4psi from cold to hot (from 8 or so to 12 or so?). You might be able to do something similar using ordinary small propane tanks? Looks like you might have a good place to put them - up high back in the corner in your lean-too above the tanks. Mine is on the floor beside them and seems to be working out Ok after two winters - although I would really like to have my expansion up high if I had a place to put it. Just that that would be a LOT cheaper than diapraghm tanks - if you could find a couple 110 gallon tanks or similar. Some on here are also using ordinary hot water heater tanks for expansion. Just make sure you have enough (more that enough is always better) - and if you come up with an idea you think might work run it past Dean. Study the part of your manual that talks about expansion - it has ideas in it for an open expansion tank up high, for an open system. The closed scenario doesn't specify diapraghm - so I think maybe a closed non-diapraghm tank up high would be OK - and better than what I've been running,

And as clarkbug mentioned, the blow off valve that comes with the boiler is rated at somewhere around 20psi I think. Lower than 'typical' for pressurized boilers. Use it, and keep your hot high pressure below say around 15 psi. Should still work good since that would be at close to the high spot in your system, and pressure will be higher down lower.

And yes, certainly overheat protection is needed. Looks like up high in your lean-too would be a good spot for that too if you don't already have something planned. Just plumb in a few pieces of hot water baseboard radiation up there running through a normally open zone valve, controlled by a break-on-rise aquastat - the stat doesn't have to be in a well, a Johnson A-419 would work pretty good and it has an external temp sensor you could surface mount to an outlet at the top of your boiler.


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## maple1 (Aug 18, 2014)

Carprofessor said:


> A very good point.  There is a 3-1/2' rise from the outlet port of the boiler to the top of the storage tank and a 3-1/2' drop from the inlet port on the boiler to the bottom of the storage tank.  I don't know what the minimum requirements would be to create thermo syphoning.  Is there doubt this will occur?


 
Guess you posted while I was typing.

Dean can answer that.

But redundancy is a very good thing when it comes to boilers.

I later also added a 2200va UPS to my loading unit power line for extra peace of mind in a power outage - so I'm covered a few ways.


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## Carprofessor (Aug 18, 2014)

Clarkbug said:


> I was going to ask the same question as arngnick, make sure you have an overheat/dump loop.
> 
> Also, my varm is rated to 1.5 bar, not 30 psi, so take that into account with your expansion tank sizing. Are you piping the tanks reverse-return to make sure they both fill?  Or adding a balancing valve in there to help divert the flow?



I'm putting in a 22.5 psi release valve.  Is that 1.5 bar?    I don't know what the calculation for expansion tanks is.  I'm told that the V37 is often installed using 2 SX110 expansion tanks when 1000 gal of storage is used.  Can someone add more about this?  

Can you explain what reverse return is?  The plan is to stack the 2 expansion tanks beside the storage tanks.  They would be on the same floor as the boiler and once stacked would be close to even with the top of the storage tanks.  I believe the connections are on the bottom of the expansion tanks.  I have a 1/2" copper line running from the expansion tank connections to a T in the 1-1/4" line between the storage tank and the return on the boiler.


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## Coal Reaper (Aug 18, 2014)

looking good!
i never ended up incorporating a dump zone or the like but i used skinny 500's, 13' tall IIRC.  i have not been able to trip the overheat protection on boiler (fan kill) even during a power failure.  you will learn how much wood it tales to bring storage to full charge.  i find myself looking at the system pressure mostly.  search for 'weighing wood' for some insight in how to dial down your loads to get full charge without overheating.
do you have temp gages on your storage tanks?  i got an x-300 unit from controlbyweb and have been very happy with it even though i still dont use it to its fullest capabilities.  https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/controlbyweb-x300-temp-monitor.116801/
you probably dont need wye strainers since your tanks were cleaned very well but if you do, put valves on either side so you dont have to depressurize the whole system to clean them.  for this reason mine have yet to be checked...
the only other thing i can add/re-iterate is that these really need dry wood.  smokes above 25%MC and at 20-25% you dont get the heat you would from <20% wood.  i split small at 20" lengths so i can really pack it tight when i need to.


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## Carprofessor (Aug 18, 2014)

maple1 said:


> Just to follow up on a couple more things mentioned above, for expansion I have one 110 gallon propane tank (no diaphragm), to handle my 660 gallons.



Is there not a concern with having the oxygen present in the system without a diaphragm? There is a very informative thread on this site about using non-diaphragm expansion tanks.  One person said that once a year he drains any water from the tanks and tops up the pre-charge and that's it.  Some else says that if you are going without a diaphragm you need to run boiler chemicals and that's expensive.  Someone else suggested that pre-charging with nitrogen might be a solution. 

If this can be addressed I would certainly like to avoid the cost of expansion tanks at about $450 each.

I heard of adding the UPS to the loading pump.  We get power interruptions far to often here so I think its a good idea.  How long will this run your loading pump?  Am I correct that a typical burn in the V37 is about 3 hours?  As long as it would run the pump that long there should be no concern (unless it was the loading pump that failed, not a power outage!)


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## Coal Reaper (Aug 18, 2014)

give us some more pics of your plumbing connections.
connection to bladder type expansion tanks should come of the bottom of an air separator that ideally is located near the top of storage tanks. idk about maples setup but it sure would be nice to save $1k.
1.5bar=21.75psi.  my system swings from 12 to 21psi if i fire storage close to 200*F.
correct on typical burn +/- a half hour depending on density of wood.


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## Carprofessor (Aug 18, 2014)

Coal Reaper said:


> looking good!
> i never ended up incorporating a dump zone or the like but i used skinny 500's, 13' tall IIRC.  i have not been able to trip the overheat protection on boiler (fan kill) even during a power failure.  you will learn how much wood it tales to bring storage to full charge.  i find myself looking at the system pressure mostly.  search for 'weighing wood' for some insight in how to dial down your loads to get full charge without overheating.
> do you have temp gages on your storage tanks?  i got an x-300 unit from controlbyweb and have been very happy with it even though i still dont use it to its fullest capabilities.  https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/controlbyweb-x300-temp-monitor.116801/
> you probably dont need wye strainers since your tanks were cleaned very well but if you do, put valves on either side so you dont have to depressurize the whole system to clean them.  for this reason mine have yet to be checked...
> the only other thing i can add/re-iterate is that these really need dry wood.  smokes above 25%MC and at 20-25% you dont get the heat you would from <20% wood.  i split small at 20" lengths so i can really pack it tight when i need to.




The pic's you posted of your tanks looks great.  The height must work well.

I read your post on the x-300.  I was looking at digital water temperature gauges used in cars.  I thought I could epoxy them on the outside of the tank, top and bottom on each one.  What would you see as the advantage of the x-300?  Are the temp sensors externally mounted or do you have to put wells in?

I have filled and drained my storage tanks a couple of times.  There is a rust stain on the ground afterwards, but no solids.  Once the oxygen has been eliminated in the system there should be no further corrosion.  Right?

I get my firewood delivered in log length and then cut and split it.  I get mostly ash.  I have 8 cords (cut 2 years ago) stacked outside now and will move 4 cords into the wood shed this fall.  I'll get another load this winter.  I got a moisture meter last spring but took it back because the readout was too small.  Any recommendations?

Splitting the wood a bit small makes sense given the small firebox door and packing tightly, but I've read that larger pieces of wood create better results.   Any thoughts on that?

How much temperature rise do you get in one burn?  How many burns to fully heat the storage tanks?


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## maple1 (Aug 18, 2014)

Carprofessor said:


> Is there not a concern with having the oxygen present in the system without a diaphragm? There is a very informative thread on this site about using non-diaphragm expansion tanks.  One person said that once a year he drains any water from the tanks and tops up the pre-charge and that's it.  Some else says that if you are going without a diaphragm you need to run boiler chemicals and that's expensive.  Someone else suggested that pre-charging with nitrogen might be a solution.
> 
> If this can be addressed I would certainly like to avoid the cost of expansion tanks at about $450 each.
> 
> I heard of adding the UPS to the loading pump.  We get power interruptions far to often here so I think its a good idea.  How long will this run your loading pump?  Am I correct that a typical burn in the V37 is about 3 hours?  As long as it would run the pump that long there should be no concern (unless it was the loading pump that failed, not a power outage!)


 
Crap, just deleted a bunch of typing. I'll try again.

I had a concern yes, and did it realizing I may end up getting some diaphragm tanks anyway. I couldn't pass up the chance to try out a $70 solution rather than one of over $1k. After 2 years I will not be changing it for this winter. Last summer I did not burn, and before I started re-charging the tanks in the fall I added some air & water because I thought my PSI was too low. But I ended up letting some back out before things got fully up to temp. So I don't think I had to do that - I think I just didn't read my guage close enough. And everything was at 65° or so. This summer I am charging to 180 or so, and a week later when I re-charge, temps are down to 95/115 or so. Pressures still seem good. I would be happier if my expansion was up high, and am still figuring how I could possibly do that (no luck yet that doesn't involve a tank in the master bedroom - which won't happen). I have re-read my manual a few times, and what it seems to show for pressurized expansion is more or less what I've got. It doesn't spec a bladder - although it is pretty light on details in places. So maybe it intended to. No chemicals or nitrogen here, or no draining etc, and I haven't topped anything up since last falls episode. Just haven't touched it at all. But if you really want to be more sure, ask Dean. Based on my 2 years, I would do what I did again, but would get my expansion up high - but would also certainly listen to what he had to say about it.

On the UPS, I found a 2200 va one on kijiji here at a good price. I don't know how long it will go, but it's more than 4 hours. From the specs it should go something like 12, but I haven't tested that out. I don't have a fan to run though - just the circ pump. Which is the main thing. One thing I didn't know at the time but found out afterwards, is that larger UPS's like this one have a cooling fan inside that runs all the time when it's plugged in. Which I don't like. So I keep mine unplugged most of the time - I will plug it in & plug my loading unit into it if I am heading out while there's a fire burning, or if the weather sounds like there might be an outage while burning. I time my burns so that the fire is pretty well out when I'm heading to bed, so I don't worry about it overnight either.


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## Coal Reaper (Aug 18, 2014)

Carprofessor said:


> The pic's you posted of your tanks looks great.  The height must work well.
> 
> I read your post on the x-300.  I was looking at digital water temperature gauges used in cars.  I thought I could epoxy them on the outside of the tank, top and bottom on each one.  What would you see as the advantage of the x-300?  Are the temp sensors externally mounted or do you have to put wells in?
> 
> ...


 
i would do at least one more in the middle as well.  if you are running the tanks in parallel then there is no need to put sensors on both tanks.  no wells, i taped the sensors on the outside and then covered in spray foam.  i tihnk i paid $300 for the x-300 and 7 sensors.  right now i have cat-5 running to a dedicated laptop in the house so i can read the temps inside rather than going out to the barn.  when i finally coordinate with a computer geek friend, i will have it hooked up such that i can read that screen on ANY internet capable computer or smart phone.  also, it has three relays that can be controlled manually, timed, or temperature.  my idea is to have it shut off the vedolux fan when storage hits 200*, allow oil boiler to fire when storage supply falls below 130* and a block heater for my truck, .  you can also have it send you emails when pre-defined temps are hit.  quite more than you really need, but a lot of capability for the money i thought.  no more questioning whether or not i need to fire when i get home and i can really dial in how much wood to load in order to fully charge.  might not be a big deal for you since you are attached or close to house.  for me it would be less than ideal in inclement weather to trudge the 150' to the barn everytime i just wanted to check on things.
i went through 6 cords last winter.  2500sqft., 2x6 construction, lots of windows, on top of mountain.  cant have too much wood in the bank, you will always get to it.  good on yah for getting it inside barn.  i will be moving mine in next month.  idk what MM i have.  you learn to feel what a dry piece of wood is.
the woodgun guys are the only ones that preffer larger splits that i have seen.  i dont get any huffing unless i throw in a heap of dry splitter dribblings.
in my experience, one load of dense wood (BL, oak, black birch) yields alomst 1/2 million BTUs to storage with no load from house.  so one load will charge if tank average is 140 ZZZhah, just found that  button!).  i need to burn three loads per day if temp are below 10 at night or 15 with a wind.


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## Carprofessor (Aug 18, 2014)

Coal Reaper said:


> give us some more pics of your plumbing connections.
> connection to bladder type expansion tanks should come of the bottom of an air separator that ideally is located near the top of storage tanks. idk about maples setup but it sure would be nice to save $1k.
> 1.5bar=21.75psi.  my system swings from 12 to 21psi if i fire storage close to 200*F.
> correct on typical burn +/- a half hour depending on density of wood.




I have updated my diagram to more correctly display what I have done.  The main change is the placement of the expansion tanks.  I am getting a bit of conflicting information on this.  The dealer's original sketch showed the supply ports from the tanks to the boiler with a note saying "place a low as possible on the tanks".  He also showed the expansion tanks tee'd off at this same point and mounted even lower than the storage tanks.  The only piece of plumbing on the line to the expansion tanks was a shut off valve.  The storage tanks have an air vent at the top, but I don't think that qualifies as an air separator.  The only air separator is the one in the primary loop that was originally installed with the propane boiler.  My understanding is that the separator can be mounted anywhere in the system that water will flow past.

There is not a supply port to the primary loop on the left hand tank.  There is only one on the right hand tank.  I questioned this at the time but was told that the water will stratify better this way.  Return water to the boiler comes into the left hand tank only and supply water to the primary loop comes from the right hand tank only.  The common connections to both tanks created by the boiler connections is supposed to equalize the temperature in both tanks with the minimum of disturbance.

Any thoughts on what might not be right?



This is a shot of the T where the 1/2" line to the expansion tanks is connected.  This is at the lowest point on the storage tank.




This is a shot of the top of the tanks.  The right hand tank supplies water to the primary loop in the house.  The line below, connected to both tanks, is the supply water from the boiler.





These are the air vents mounted in the top of each tank.



The top port in this shot is the return from the house into the left hand tank only.  The bottom port is the return line to the boiler and s connected to both tanks.  This is the line that the T for the expansion tank is in.


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## Clarkbug (Aug 18, 2014)

Carprofessor said:


> I'm putting in a 22.5 psi release valve.  Is that 1.5 bar?    I don't know what the calculation for expansion tanks is.  I'm told that the V37 is often installed using 2 SX110 expansion tanks when 1000 gal of storage is used.  Can someone add more about this?
> 
> Can you explain what reverse return is?  The plan is to stack the 2 expansion tanks beside the storage tanks.  They would be on the same floor as the boiler and once stacked would be close to even with the top of the storage tanks.  I believe the connections are on the bottom of the expansion tanks.  I have a 1/2" copper line running from the expansion tank connections to a T in the 1-1/4" line between the storage tank and the return on the boiler.



As CoalReaper mentioned, 22.5 is pretty close to 1.5 bar.  You got it!

As far as the tie-in point, ideally the expansion will be tied in where there is a "point of no pressure change".  Essentially, thats the point in the system where you wont have a pressure spike based on a pump coming on or off.  That gets tricky when dealing with storage and loading pumps sometimes.  For what its worth, I have mine tied in in the same spot that you do.  Works fine so far!

Just make sure to take the handle off of the shut-off valve to the expansion tanks.  You dont want to have it accidentally closed when the system is in operation.  But you do want it there in case you ever need to service the tanks.  

Reverse-Return is actually a method of piping your storage tanks, not your expansion tanks.  The idea is that you would pipe in the supply one way, and then reverse the order on the return from the tanks.  That way water from each tank has to flow through the same equivalent length of piping no matter which way it goes, so the friction losses equal out.  

You will get some great thermo syphon with the elevation changes you have in the tanks currently.  Nice work!  I dont know if you can eliminate the dump zone entirely, but you might be able to get away with it....  But I sure would sweat bullets the first time the power went out until I was sure....


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## maple1 (Aug 18, 2014)

That's pretty well how I have my expansion tank T'd in - except comparing to yours would have T'd in to the left bottom T, from the left. I don't think it really matters where you actually place the expansion tanks especially with diaphragms - they could likely go anywhere - even somewhere on the other side of your house if you wanted.

The 'reverse return' thing just means that the return would exit your storage opposite the point where supply enters. In this case, with supply going on top right, the return would exit to boiler at bottom left, or the opposite side of where it does. Which in theory would set up more of a cross-flow through both thanks and maybe utilize them more fully. But others have them plumbed as you did and post good results - and I think that is also the way the factory Varm tanks are plumbed in. Although my memory of the literature is kind of fuzzy. With vertical tanks and the natural stratification effect of hotter water being lighter, it likely equalizes itself pretty good during the course of a charging.

Think your vents are good too - top of storage makes a very good air trap.

I must say though - I would have (and did) put in a lot of ball valves for isolating things. I might have gone overkill on that, but I've got them at each tank fitting, and almost on each side of every T. Have you pressure tested the piping yet too?

EDIT: Typed too slow again I see...


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## maple1 (Aug 18, 2014)

One more after looking at your pics again.

Where your primary loop supply comes out of the right tank, turns up with a street 90, then goes across via another 90 & then down - will make a very vulnerable spot for an airlock. I would put another airvent in there somewhere. Maybe swap out the second 90 for a T and put a vent in the top of the T? Or cut one into the middle of the horizontal section? Either way, I would for sure vent that topmost section at the very topmost part of it. I think.


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## Carprofessor (Aug 18, 2014)

Clarkbug said:


> As CoalReaper mentioned, 22.5 is pretty close to 1.5 bar.  You got it!
> 
> As far as the tie-in point, ideally the expansion will be tied in where there is a "point of no pressure change".  Essentially, thats the point in the system where you wont have a pressure spike based on a pump coming on or off.  That gets tricky when dealing with storage and loading pumps sometimes.  For what its worth, I have mine tied in in the same spot that you do.  Works fine so far!
> 
> ...



So is this reverse return?  The boiler charges both tanks simultaneously but the loop is supplied by one tank and the return is on another.


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## Coal Reaper (Aug 18, 2014)

looks good but i agree with the lack of valves.  suggest adding them anywhere that you have not yet plumbed.
vents at top of tanks is great.
i think the reason that expansion tanks are connected to the bottom of the air seperator is so that there is no chance of air bubbles rising into the expansion tanks and "living" under the diaphram?  corect me of wrong, but thatts my understanding.
the way your storage tanks are plumbed in will prevent return water from the house going straight into the boiler.  if i have a zone that i am trying to bring up several degrees there is a potential for water that hasnt dumped enough BTUs to be returned to the boiler and then see a 20 going through boiler possibly causing an overheat.  i have not seen this yet but theoritcally it can happen.  the bumblebee limits this i suppose.


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## Coal Reaper (Aug 18, 2014)

Clarkbug said:


> Just make sure to take the handle off of the shut-off valve to the expansion tanks.  You dont want to have it accidentally closed when the system is in operation.  But you do want it there in case you ever need to service the tanks.


 
good point.  i am going  to take the handles off mine now.  my son is almost 3 and i could easily see something happening there...


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## Carprofessor (Aug 18, 2014)

Coal Reaper said:


> looks good but i agree with the lack of valves.  suggest adding them anywhere that you have not yet plumbed.
> vents at top of tanks is great.
> i think the reason that expansion tanks are connected to the bottom of the air seperator is so that there is no chance of air bubbles rising into the expansion tanks and "living" under the diaphram?  corect me of wrong, but thatts my understanding.
> the way your storage tanks are plumbed in will prevent return water from the house going straight into the boiler.  if i have a zone that i am trying to bring up several degrees there is a potential for water that hasnt dumped enough BTUs to be returned to the boiler and then see a 20 going through boiler possibly causing an overheat.  i have not seen this yet but theoritcally it can happen.  the bumblebee limits this i suppose.



I was just looking at my setup and I could cut into the 1-1/4 line that is going out of the top of the right tank into the house and place an air separator there.  I could then run a 1/2" copper line to my expansion.  Is this a better design?  Would this also address the concern Maple has about a potential air lock in that section of line?

My diagrams and picture don't show it, but there are many ball valves in the circuit.  Understand that this is an existing system hooked up to a propane boiler.  I am tapping into the loop with the wood boiler.  Currently I have 4 ball valves installed on the wood side- one on the end of each 1-1/4 line leading to and from the storage tanks.  I can isolate the tanks or isolate the boiler.  At this point there are no parts on the tanks that might need periodic service.  I will put a valve in to isolate the expansion tanks.  If the loading pump needed service I would isolate the boiler and drain it.  If I put the wye strainers in I would put valves in for them.  Once in the house, I would put valves in to isolate the bumble bee and valves in where I tap into the current loop.  Are there other places that you would suggest I put them?


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## Coal Reaper (Aug 19, 2014)

i dont know that you NEED an air seperator since you have the vents at the top of the tanks. if you are going to run a propane tank for expansion like maple did then you are fine with current connection. if it were me running bladder type expansion i would run my 1/2" line from a point in the system that is higher than the expansion tanks themselves.  this may or may not even make a difference but that is what i would do.
valves at the bottom of storage so you have the option of not completly draining the tank unless needed.  like i said its not worth re-doing all the plumbing you have so far done.  you got some luck if you do indeed have all the valves listed and by chance none of them ended up in your pictures!


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## Clarkbug (Aug 19, 2014)

Carprofessor said:


> So is this reverse return?  The boiler charges both tanks simultaneously but the loop is supplied by one tank and the return is on another.
> 
> 
> View attachment 136772



Reverse return would be if you instead piped your tanks so that the pipe on the return goes from the right tank to the left tank, then makes a bend and goes back to the boiler.  The idea is that you want water to "see" the same length of piping no matter what tank its going through, if that makes sense.

If you have an air separator in your primary system, as well as the vents, you should be good to go.


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## Bob Rohr (Aug 19, 2014)

A Clarkbug mentioned reverse return, the piping paths need to be about the same, looks like this.


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## Clarkbug (Aug 20, 2014)

Thanks Bob!  Thats exactly what I was thinking.   I know the elbows add length, but at least its picked up by either flow path.


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## Carprofessor (Aug 22, 2014)

Clarkbug said:


> Reverse return would be if you instead piped your tanks so that the pipe on the return goes from the right tank to the left tank, then makes a bend and goes back to the boiler.  The idea is that you want water to "see" the same length of piping no matter what tank its going through, if that makes sense.
> 
> If you have an air separator in your primary system, as well as the vents, you should be good to go.



Would the same thing be achieved by putting the reverse in the supply line (the top one)?  The return line (bottom one) is pretty hard to access now.


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## maple1 (Aug 22, 2014)

Yes.

But if you need heat to the zones at the same time that you are starting to charge depleted storage, there may be a bit more of a delay before your zones see hot water - since the tank your zones would pull from is not the one that the boiler supply hits first.

But that all may be a wash & not amount to much difference. It also might be a wash changing what you have now. If Dean says you should be good with how you have it now, I would go with that. I like the idea of zones pulling from right above where your boiler feeds your storage though, as is now. It can be good at times being able to send hot water basically right to your zones from you boiler, say if you come home late & your house needs heat & your storage is depleted.


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## Carprofessor (Aug 22, 2014)

The whole reverse return discussion is very interesting. The design I currently have is the same as the one Varmebaronen recommends as illustrated in this picture.  (I trust posting this picture is ok... not a copyright issue?)





So why has Varmebaronen apparently not used reverse return? Am I correct that the reverse return design is intended to create the same flow through both tanks to ensure they heat at the same rate?  Is it possible that they intended the tank with the house supply to heat first/faster?

Maple'sobservation;_"there may be a bit more of a delay before your zones see hot water - since the tank your zones would pull from is not the one that the boiler supply hits first" - _suggests that this might be so.  Would the Varmebaronen design not cause the tank closest to the boiler to heat a little quicker, making hotter water available sooner?  As the tanks are charged the other tank would always lag a little behind but would catch up at the end of the charge?  I wonder if this design might also result in less turbulence in the tanks and therefore better stratification?

I going to stop now.  I'm just guessing and you guys are going to think I'm talk out of my butt!


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## maple1 (Aug 22, 2014)

Nothing wrong with this discussion.

That picture shows about exactly the same setup as you have now. (Note also where the loads pull out of those [very pretty] tanks, at the top of the tank closest to the boiler).

That would be good enough for me - I think i would rely on them know what they're doing.

There are lots of little things to think about with this stuff. So much so that there are also lots of little things to second guess at & go around in circles about.

The only thing I would change would be to get an air vent in that top line like I mentioned.

(If the chance presented, I would also put valves on all the tanks like also shown in the pic before the tanks get filled - but don't think that's possible in your case. The main reason for me is my dug well & shallow well pump would not handle filling them back up again very easy very quick if I had to drain them for servicing.)

EDIT: Part of the equation in getting heat into all the tanks in the pic above is likely the orientation of the T's. The hot water comes to the close tank first, but it has to bend around the T to get into it. So the flow directed by the T orientations might be all there is to it. Simple T orientation is one of those little things to think about, that can play an impact on how much water goes where, everywhere in the system.


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## Willman (Aug 22, 2014)

Maybe they are mono flow tees


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## avc8130 (Aug 23, 2014)

Carprofessor said:


> The whole reverse return discussion is very interesting. The design I currently have is the same as the one Varmebaronen recommends as illustrated in this picture.  (I trust posting this picture is ok... not a copyright issue?)
> 
> View attachment 137024



Where are the supply and returns from the zones?  That setup looks like it was a demo that could pretty much only charge "storage".

ac


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## Clarkbug (Aug 23, 2014)

Reverse return is one of those "nice to have" things that is usually more important when you are piping up your heat emitters.  It was the old-school way of avoiding a balancing valve or having to measure the flow.  If the friction losses were the same in each loop, the flow would be the same, or at least close enough.

I probably shouldnt have mentioned it, but I also didnt realize how far you were piped up at the time.  

As maple mentioned, there are a lot of ways to do things, and its just one of those little tweaks that can help.  But since a tank is a really big volume, and there isnt a lot of friction losses in it anyway, we are really talking very minor differences.  Its that last 1% of efficiency/stratification sorta thing.  The way Varm has their tanks shown will work fine without any crazyness in the piping, since things will stratify on their own eventually through natural convection.


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## maple1 (Aug 23, 2014)

avc8130 said:


> Where are the supply and returns from the zones?  That setup looks like it was a demo that could pretty much only charge "storage".
> 
> ac



The zone supply is the stubby T looking thing in the top of the left tank. Return likely down low where can't see it. Or into the bottom right side of the right tank.


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## Clarkbug (Aug 23, 2014)

maple1 said:


> The zone supply is the stubby T looking thing in the top of the left tank. Return likely down low where can't see it. Or into the bottom right side of the right tank.



Supply and return both got into that stubby T on the top, which is really a modulating three way valve.  There is a shunt in the tank itself to pull hot from the top and cold from lower in the tank.  The idea is that it also is equipped with an actuator that is driven based on the outdoor air temp to adjust the supply water temp.


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## maple1 (Aug 23, 2014)

That's right - forgot about that.  

That total Varm system is very nice, with those sexy tanks. They weren't in the cards for me though, getting them here made used propane tanks found here even more appealing.


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## alaskawild (Aug 23, 2014)

Always use an air separator or air scoop if you can in addition to your tank air vents. Way more efficient at getting the air out! And remember the 18" rule if you use an air scoop. Also if you keep your water flow at or above 4ft per sec the air tends to stay in suspension and move to the air separator. Just my two cents.


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## Carprofessor (Sep 7, 2014)

alaskawild said:


> Always use an air separator or air scoop if you can in addition to your tank air vents. Way more efficient at getting the air out! And remember the 18" rule if you use an air scoop. Also if you keep your water flow at or above 4ft per sec the air tends to stay in suspension and move to the air separator. Just my two cents.



What's the 18" rule?  I 've got an air scoop on my existing propane boiler (see diagram in my first post).  The V37 will be circulating through the same loop and I'm counting on that scoop to do the job.  I'm using a Taco Bumble Bee as the circulating pump.  It sets the water flow as required.  (I think it increases flow as the water supply temp drops, minimizing heat loss in the storage tanks and limiting turbulence in the storage tanks).


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## Carprofessor (Sep 7, 2014)

Expansion tanks went in yesterday.  The are Amtrol Extrol SX110's.  I haven't plumbed them yet but I will T them at the base of the top tank.  Shut off valve there as well so that they can be isolated. As recommended by Dean, I will put a drain valve on the expansion tank side of the shut off so that I can release the water pressure and check the tank initial pressure.  This will also allow me to remove any air that might accumulate in the beginning.

The darker wall in the picture is insulation.  The storage tanks are behind them.  I was using white Styrofoam but ran out and couldn't get any more used stuff.  This is also a foam but it supposedly has almost twice the R value.  The sheets are doubled up in the walls giving me 6 inches of insulation all around the tanks.  I've just placed them loosely for now so that I can pull them out once the boiler fires up and check for any leaks.  Eventually I will sheet the walls in with the corrugated tin that is on the other walls and ceiling.


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## Carprofessor (Sep 7, 2014)

Today was chimney day.  I hoped to have this done weeks ago but the roof flashing was backordered.  In the attached pictures you can see the rough opening, the ceiling support and the finished chimney.  Haven't attached up to the boiler yet.  It's supposed to rain soon and I will check for leaks before closing up the ceiling (more tin!) and then move the boiler in place to connect.


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## Carprofessor (Sep 7, 2014)

This is a picture of the inside of the boiler room.  This has been more work than the boiler itself but is starting to come together.  All the inside is lined with recycled tin roofing that has been painted (one coat) with galvanized metal primer.  The walls have 3.5" of white Styrofoam in them and the ceiling is double (7").  There is a set of double doors at the end to get my wood supply in and out and also to move the lawn tractor etc.  I put 2 sets of 4' lights in with "daylight" bulbs.  The lighting is excellent.  The boiler will move closer to the front of the picture once hooked up to the chimney, leaving room for about 5 cords of firewood.  I'm hoping that lots for 1 winter.  (Some suggest it is.)


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## alaskawild (Sep 7, 2014)

Carprofessor said:


> What's the 18" rule?  I 've got an air scoop on my existing propane boiler (see diagram in my first post).  The V37 will be circulating through the same loop and I'm counting on that scoop to do the job.  I'm using a Taco Bumble Bee are the circulating pump.  It sets the water flow as required.  (I think it increases flow as the water supply temp drops, minimizing heat loss in the storage tanks and limiting turbulence in the storage tanks).


Carprofessor...

I looked at your diagram just now. I really couldn't tell what you were using. I was referring to any cast iron air scoop like a Watts or Taco style. If someone is using this style they should allow 18" of unobstructed pipe before entering the scoop. If you could see inside a pipe any air traveling along in the water flow is mixed in that water column. On a horizontal run where an air scoop is installed the air will migrate to the top section of pipe but it takes at least 18" to effectively do this. The scoops are a really simple design. The air is literally scooped off the top of this column of water as it moves thru the air scoop. If a scoop is installed next to say an elbow the turbulence created by the elbow cause turbulence in that water column mixing the air bubbles and causing many bubbles to pass thru without being captured. Of course if you are using an air separator forget the 18" rule. They work almost anywhere!
As for velocity I was referring to, too little. This is rare! If flow is really low air will separate in the system in various places and just remain stuck there. It takes some velocity to keep air suspended in the water column so it will move to an air vent. Believe me this is rare. I can only remember two incidents of this in 35 years. Of course with high velocity you will know! It is a balancing act LOL
The Bumble Bee is a great pump and is setup to use delta-t for control. One thing misunderstood by some is that this pump does have a minimum speed that it will run at. It does not completely shut-off on it's own. Good luck! Great looking project


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## maple1 (Sep 7, 2014)

I think that's why I've had a couple of episodes of my zones air locking - my scoop is too close to an elbow.

But it's in the exact same place as originally installed 18 years ago. So I'll blame it on my installer of 18 years ago.


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## alaskawild (Sep 7, 2014)

See


maple1 said:


> I think that's why I've had a couple of episodes of my zones air locking - my scoop is too close to an elbow.
> 
> But it's in the exact same place as originally installed 18 years ago. So I'll blame it on my installer of 18 years ago.


 See it all the time! You will see a difference!


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## Carprofessor (Sep 7, 2014)

Thanks for explaining the 18" rule.  I hadn't heard that before.  This is what has been running with my propane boiler for the last 7-8 years.


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## alaskawild (Sep 7, 2014)

Yep you are tight on space but the layout is spot on! Hate to see you spend more money but an air separator like a Spirotherm or Taco 4900 would be the simple fix. Air is gone within hours or less. Keep up the pics! Really enjoy But those air scoops work great also if you give them some room!


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## Carprofessor (Sep 21, 2014)

Ok, I'm listening.  Plumbed in the wood boiler connection to my propane boiler loop.  The top two lines are coming from the storage tanks.  I added another air scoop in the supply line. The water will circulate through the entire system and trust everyone approves this will remove any air in the system!  On the far right you can see the Taco Bumble Bee circulating pump.  I still have to plumb the wood boiler but that should happen soon.  Looking for advise on how to hook up the wiring so the propane boiler and the wood boiler work together.... wood when there is hot storage water and propane if not.


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## Carprofessor (Oct 5, 2014)

First Fire Today!!

I'm only able to heat the storage tanks so far, but that' progress.  Tanks are full and no leaks.  Make just 2 small fires today to dry out the ceramics but I can already feel heat in the top of the tanks.  I will cl  Still working on the electrical needed to get this to work in tandem with my propane boiler.  Dean at Smokeless Heat has been a great help and is advising me on the best way to get everything working together.



	

		
			
		

		
	
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## Retired (Dec 23, 2014)

Hi Carprofessor - Nice install and pics.  Did you ever come up with the "simple" controls for your system?  I have been looking into installing a very similar system.  I will be doing a complete replacement and using a 37 with a propane backup.  This is a great forum and when I was actively chatting on another thread last summer, I also had excellent input from Maple 1, Coal Reaper, and Clarkbug.  The controls was part of why I put it on the back burner to finish other tasks.  I plan on installing this Spring, but still have no idea what controls I will be using.  I like simple!  One thought about your piping.  Am I correct that your propane boiler is in series with your primary loop?  Why I ask is that my propane boiler will be through the wall and in my garage.  Do you have much heat loss, if I am observing your system correctly?  I guess that would ensure that I would not freeze my boiler   Thanks for any input.


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## Quincy (Dec 24, 2014)

Hi Carprofessor  I am following your posts quite closely as I live in south western Ontario as well .I am looking into the same boiler as you installed does the Ved 37 exceed your expectations . Could you tell me what temp ranges you heat from and how long it takes to heat storage back up? Over all are you happy with the boiler the install looks great thanks in advance for your reply.


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## Carprofessor (Dec 25, 2014)

Quincy said:


> Hi Carprofessor  I am following your posts quite closely as I live in south western Ontario as well .I am looking into the same boiler as you installed does the Ved 37 exceed your expectations . Could you tell me what temp ranges you heat from and how long it takes to heat storage back up? Over all are you happy with the boiler the install looks great thanks in advance for your reply.



Thanks for your comments.  I'm happy to share my experience so far, but since this is the first winter we are still forming solid opinions.  What I can tell you is that the boiler currently meets our expectations.  My other source of heat is a propane boiler and it has not fired up yet this year.  We are heating a larger home that is well insulated but with lots of windows.  I am also heating a 900 sq ft garage.  So far we have burned about 2 -1/2 cords of hard wood.  That's not unreasonable.  I am projecting that we will burn 6-8 cords this winter.  That will cost me about $900 for the winter.  Not only is that a good price for a winter's heat (in my opinion) but our house is much more comfortable than it has been for the last 9 winters.  I find that I make 2 fires per day.  It really doesn't seem to matter what the temp outside is.  When the temp dropped to less than -10 I found that a third fire was needed every other day.  The nice part is that I make a fire when it is convenient for me to do so.  If I don't get out to make one in the morning there is still enough stored heat for several hours.  I will still need to make two fires that day, but the could both be in the evening.  The temp in the tanks drops from about 80 to 65 overnight.  After 2 fires it will be back up to 80.  One burn lasts about 4 hours.  It will be interesting to see how it performs when the temp drops to -20.


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## Carprofessor (Dec 25, 2014)

Retired said:


> Hi Carprofessor - Nice install and pics.  Did you ever come up with the "simple" controls for your system?  I have been looking into installing a very similar system.  I will be doing a complete replacement and using a 37 with a propane backup.  This is a great forum and when I was actively chatting on another thread last summer, I also had excellent input from Maple 1, Coal Reaper, and Clarkbug.  The controls was part of why I put it on the back burner to finish other tasks.  I plan on installing this Spring, but still have no idea what controls I will be using.  I like simple!  One thought about your piping.  Am I correct that your propane boiler is in series with your primary loop?  Why I ask is that my propane boiler will be through the wall and in my garage.  Do you have much heat loss, if I am observing your system correctly?  I guess that would ensure that I would not freeze my boiler   Thanks for any input.



The control was one of the more technical parts of the project to wrap my head around.  I wanted an automatic setup that would switch back to propane if the storage tanks were not hot enough.  With invaluable assistance from Dean at www.smokelessheat.com I installed a system that does this.  I installed a Ranco relay and a Taco SR506 zone controller.  The  Ranco monitors the temp of the storage tanks.  As long as they are above a minimum set point, any call for heat is directed to the pump supplying water from the storage tanks.  If the storage water is not at the minimum temp the Ranco relay directs the call for heat to the propane boiler.  Now that it is up and working, and I understand it, I would call it simple.  Took some time to get there though.  I'd be happy to tell you the specifics if your interested. I would need to go back into my notes to get the details.

Yes, my propane boiler is in the primary loop.  I have no way to tell what the heat loss is.  I asked about this and was told that there is heat loss but it was not a significant factor.  The boiler is in the basement, so any loss through the water jackets is into the house, so not really a loss.  The question might be how much heat is going up the flue.  My propane boiler uses a forced vent so that might help.  If you propane boiler is in the garage you may experience a greater heat loss, unless you are also heating the garage.  My wood boiler is in the garage.  I have insulated the garage and the residual heat from the boiler maintains the temp at about 10 with no other source of heat.  Quite nice.


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## Carprofessor (Jan 30, 2016)

Its been a while since I have posted anything here but I have been reading with interest.  I am now in my second winter with my boiler and thought I would post a few things and ask a few questions.

Last winter the V37 boiler worked well but I thought it went through a lot of wood.  I certainly would not call it a wood monster, but it was more than I was hoping for.  I lost track because I had  bring more in 3 times, but I would estimate close to 10 cords of ash.  To be fair, we had an unusually cold and long winter last year (remember the polar vortex) and the second time I brought wood in it was green ash - freshly split -  as I had run out.  Other than the wood consumption, I was pleased. (Even with the wood consumption I was pleased, but maybe expecting too much?)

This winter I was better prepared and brought in 8 cords of seasoned ash.  The wood burns much nicer.  This has been an extraordinarily  mild winter - many days required only one fire - but I still think I am burning more wood that I would like.  As of today, January 30, I have  burned just under 400 cu ft of wood - just over 3 cords.  At this rate I think I'll end up at a total of around 6 cords for the winter.  That's not too bad but I wonder if there is some fine tuning I can do. 

Last year I tried to keep my 1000 gallons of storage topped off at around 90 c.  My tanks are walled off and wrapped with pink insulation.  I think there may be a bit more heat loss there than is ideal and so this year my target temp has been around 70 c.   My propane boiler will kick in automatically if the storage drops below 55 c. , which is never does. There may be some gain by spray foaming my tanks, but that will cost close to $1000, so not sure if it really pays.  What do people think about keeping the lower temp?  One would think that the lessor temp differential would result in less heat loss.

I have in-floor radiant in the basement, which is at a constant 18c.  Upstairs is forced air through a fan coil and is on a programmable thermostat.  During the day its set to 22.5c and drops back to 19c at night. 

The V37 has a few adjustments for combustion air.  I've played around with them but  nothing seems to make a great difference.  I have attached a 4 second video to show what the secondary combustion looks like.  I roars pretty good, but the flame is quite yellow. I've seen other videos that showed a more blue (hotter) flame.  I'm wondering if this is something that can be adjusted.  There is an adjustment knob that opens up a small air bleed around the sight glass.  This is set to about a 1/8" gap.  There is a slide that opens extra air into the primary combustion area.  It is wide open. My flue gas temp never goes over 200c, and is right up there for most of the burn.  A burn last 3 or 4 hours and normally heats the house for 8-12 hours, or more if it is mild outside.

Any thoughts?  Would spray foaming the tanks pay? Does the combustion look proper?  Any thoughts on adjusting it?

As always, thanks for your opinions.


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## Coal Reaper (Jan 31, 2016)

I have not been impressed with ash. I view it as a wood to use if you dont have any other seasoned long enough. Ur consumption is about right with ash i would think. Other woods in my area put out far more btus. Black birch, locust, hard maple, beech, oak. But they gotta be dry. Big difference there. 
I used to think the same thing about less heat loss with lower storage temps. I learned it really doesnt matter if the tanks are sprayed. 
Air settings dont make a lick of difference. I found tho if i close the slider it pulls more air past the glass which keeps it cleaner.


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## maple1 (Jan 31, 2016)

3 cords of ash so far doesn't sound bad at all - but we don't know much about your house or its heat loss.

I can't speak about the 37 adjustments - but off the cuff might check out if that wide open primary adjustment is making the secondary too rich? But in playing with my 40 I also couldn't really notice a difference in how the secondary burned while adjusting the window. Mine is open only a very small crack.

I have changed my burn habits since I first started. I usually don't start a fire now until my storage gets to the point that the house will start losing temp. Depending on the day or how cold it is out, that could be 125 to 140 at top. And my tanks seldom go past 180/165 on charging. Sometimes only 170/60, again depending on how cold it is outside. I am quite sure I am burning less wood this way as opposed to when I first started & kept storage hotter. How cool you can go depends again on house heat loss, and emitter capability. I have all Stant Fin baseboard, although I think oversized for what a typical oil burner application would size. I haven't burned more than 6 hours a day either this winter or last.

I didn't read back any - but did the Vedo replace another wood burner? If so what was it & how did it do for appetite? I think I went from around 8 cords with my old wood/oil unit (and some oil when the wood couldn't keep up), to 5 with this one (no oil) - while keeping the house warmer (20 year old 2700 sq.ft. 2 storey on an open hilltop). I had some issues with my wood supply during & after my first winter with the new one, and just getting back into good quality well seasoned wood this winter. Big difference. Last couple of winters I was using mostly windfall spruce (likely 50%) and white birch I could get dry in a hurry. Going through some dry sugar maple now - it's nice.


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## Carprofessor (Jan 31, 2016)

Coal Reaper said:


> I have not been impressed with ash. I view it as a wood to use if you dont have any other seasoned long enough. Ur consumption is about right with ash i would think. Other woods in my area put out far more btus. Black birch, locust, hard maple, beech, oak. But they gotta be dry. Big difference there.
> I used to think the same thing about less heat loss with lower storage temps. I learned it really doesnt matter if the tanks are sprayed.
> Air settings dont make a lick of difference. I found tho if i close the slider it pulls more air past the glass which keeps it cleaner.


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## Carprofessor (Jan 31, 2016)

Hi CR,
Thanks for your reply.  Living in Eastern Ontario, there is a lot of green ash available thanks to the Ash Borer infestation.  Maple has been harder to get  in the last few years, unless you a bit further north.  The stats I've found says Sugar Maple is 3740 lbs and 23.2 mbtu's/cord and Green Ash is 3400 lbs/ 21.1 mbtu's /cord.  If those numbers are accurate then Green ash out to be about 90% as good as maple.  Maple is a whole lot easier to split though!

I reset the slider to "closed" and opened the sight glass when I made a fire this morning.  I'll give that a try.

Thanks.


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## Carprofessor (Jan 31, 2016)

maple1 said:


> 3 cords of ash so far doesn't sound bad at all - but we don't know much about your house or its heat loss.
> 
> I can't speak about the 37 adjustments - but off the cuff might check out if that wide open primary adjustment is making the secondary too rich? But in playing with my 40 I also couldn't really notice a difference in how the secondary burned while adjusting the window. Mine is open only a very small crack.
> 
> ...


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## Carprofessor (Jan 31, 2016)

maple1 said:


> 3 cords of ash so far doesn't sound bad at all - but we don't know much about your house or its heat loss.
> 
> I can't speak about the 37 adjustments - but off the cuff might check out if that wide open primary adjustment is making the secondary too rich? But in playing with my 40 I also couldn't really notice a difference in how the secondary burned while adjusting the window. Mine is open only a very small crack.
> 
> ...



I don't think my wood consumption is too bad this year but I'm looking to see if I have everything set up right to get the most out of what I am burning.  I have reset the combustion adjustments as Coal Reaper suggested - shutting down the primary air and opening up the secondary.  I'll report back if that makes a noticeable difference in the burn.  Looking at some other videos, the secondary burn seems very blue while mine is very yellow.  That's what makes me wonder.  There is some wear on the ceramic floor - the hole has gotten a bit bigger.  Would that change the burn characteristics?  I'm tempted to get a steel plate with a smaller hole cut in it an lay it over the ceramic just to see if the smaller hole makes much difference.  What do you think of that?  Not permanent, just a test. 

I have a relay that monitors the temp in the top of one tank.  If that tank drops to 56c (133F) the supply pumps from the tanks turn off and the propane boiler fires up.  That never happens, but suffice it to say that 56c is the lowest I let the temp get.  The lower sections of the tank, and the second tank can be much cooler - perhaps 40c (105F) but the supply to the house comes off the top of the tank that never drops below 56c. I only make enough fire to get through the day without the propane coming on.  I rarely fire above 70c (158F).  My theory is that the thermal loss from the tanks will be greater when the temperature difference is the greatest.  Still testing that theory.  Coal reaper says spary foaming makes this much less of an issue.  I am considering doing that this summer.


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## maple1 (Jan 31, 2016)

I didn't spray foam my tanks. Just kind of built a box around them & stuffed it with what I had laying around. Lined it with foamboard first, and put a couple layers of foamboard under them. But the rest is fiberglass batts, with some cellulose wadded into gaps under them that I didn't get foamboard into.

I'm doing something with mine that I haven't read of anyone else with a Varm doing. So maybe I'm out to lunch. And mine is natural draft so there might be a difference there. But I am using a grate over my nozzle. First couple three years it was a cheap fireplace grate with the legs cut off. This year I am using Broil King BBQ cooking grids, used ones that I swapped out of the BBQ for new this summer. Haven't found anything yet that will last much time, so it's kind of disposable equipment - but it maintains a nice coal bed, and I get very few if any coals in my secondary chamber. Seemed my nozzle plugged with coals a lot of the time without it, and some ended up unburned. I might be getting the same effect with the grate as a coal plugged nozzle might give, but I do think it evened out my burning. And it doesn't take as many coals to make a bed with the grate as it does with a plugged hole. If I said that right.


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## huffdawg (Jan 31, 2016)

Carprofessor said:


> I needed to insulate the shed to prevent freezing if the boiler is off for any prolonged time and to keep the storage water from cooling as much as possible.  I priced spray foam but it was quite expensive.  I found used sheets of Styrofoam (4x8x3") and used that.  I know it doesn't have the same R value as spray foam but it was so cheap I put 6" in the ceiling and around the storage tanks.  Worked out to almost 10x cheaper.  Looked odd driving down the highway though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lol.. I thought that was your boiler at first. till I enlarged the image.


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## Coal Reaper (Feb 1, 2016)

i wasnt able to watch your video over the weekend but i just did now.  that flame does look lazy to me.  mine looks like that when i have the bypass open.  check to make sure it is able to close all the way.  when in operation my channel will glow red.  its actually about time for a new one.  your stack temp is where it should be but 3-4 hour burn time with ash is long.  mine doesnt run for 4 hours with hard wood and i know it is about 2 with soft maple.  i wonder if your fan is moving enough air.
i have not had need to use a grate like maple.  i have had made a nozzle liner.  my ceramic has not worn any more since.  this link goes through the failure of a steel one.  the stainless upgrade is holding up fine.  https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/steel-nozzle-liner-vedolux-37.120396/


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## JohnDolz (Feb 1, 2016)

Carprofessor said:


> Its been a while since I have posted anything here but I have been reading with interest.  I am now in my second winter with my boiler and thought I would post a few things and ask a few questions.
> 
> Last winter the V37 boiler worked well but I thought it went through a lot of wood.  I certainly would not call it a wood monster, but it was more than I was hoping for.  I lost track because I had  bring more in 3 times, but I would estimate close to 10 cords of ash.  To be fair, we had an unusually cold and long winter last year (remember the polar vortex) and the second time I brought wood in it was green ash - freshly split -  as I had run out.  Other than the wood consumption, I was pleased. (Even with the wood consumption I was pleased, but maybe expecting too much?)
> 
> ...


First of all thanks for all of the posts, I just read through them and really enjoyed the read. I am still very new here but most of the thought process seems to be around system design and and the burn to charge the tanks (vs. what to do with the energy stored in the tanks). I started a thread on heating with low flow temps a few weeks back, not sure if you had a chance to read through it. I can share that my experience is I am getting substantially longer duration out of my tanks (better mileage out of my BTU's). I have the same setup as you, automatically kicks over to propane. Last year my setpoint was at 60C, this year it is at 38C (27C in the shoulder seasons). To keep it apples to apples I can tell you I get much more heating time from charged tanks to 60C (and then of course the benefit of letting it drop substantially lower). The fact that you have radiant heat allows you to create 2 "loops", you can use really low flow temp for the radiant and then a bit higher for the rest of your heating needs. I accomplish this through a controller built into my boiler combined with mixing valves. Others commented on the thread that they are successfully doing this with controllers and injection pumps. A couple of folks said they will be giving this a try, I'm looking forward to reading their feedback once they do. Good luck and great job!


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