# Running household services off a generator



## mayhem (Dec 12, 2008)

Well the power is out due to the big ice storm, so now we're wihtout some of the basic services we're so used to.  heat is fine since its relatively mild out and the woodstove is cranking away...along with that we've got the top to cook on and the gas grill is there as well.  Problem is we've got no water since its an electric pump, so we can't flush the toilet, can't make hot water for a shower (whihc we can't take wihtout pressure anyways) and no fridge either.  I can always put the food in a cooler outside if I have to but what about water?  Guess I could always put a huge bucket outside and let it collect whatever water it can from the rain and snow and use that to dump water into the toilet.  Showers will have to wait.

I don't have a generator...frankly while I've thought about buying one before we've never lost power for more than an hour or so over the last few years.  If I were to purchase one I know I can plug things into the 100 outlets and run them, so the fridge can get taken care of, but is there any way to work with the water pump since its tied into the breaker panel?  I beleive its a 20 amp breaker (though I'm not sure what it actually draws).  It doesn't amke sense that I could use a male to male extension cord and just plug into the house and backfeed through the breaker panel...in fact that seems like it might be dangerous to some extent...but I really don't know.  

My well is 440 feet deep so some kind of hand pump is probably out of the question.

Any thoughts?  I think I'm just SOL and the time to think about this is when the sun is shining and the power is on and not when the outage actually happens...but thats just the way it is.  My chief concern is that we may be looking at an extended outage.


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## Brian VT (Dec 12, 2008)

DO NOT backfeed power. The guys working on the power lines could get hit with your juice.

You could get a proper switch box installed so you can plug a gas generator into your service panel.
Me, I would get a propane-fired backup generator that takes over automatically.

When a storm is coming (wind or ice) I fill a bathtub with water and use that for flushing if we loose power.
I fill a few large pots of water that can be heated for washing. I have quite a bit of drinking water stored also.


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## mayhem (Dec 12, 2008)

Kind of what I thought...even if I kill the main breaker its still risky to someone...if not the pole worker it'll be me that gets nailed.

So to be clear.  Without the proper switchbox installed there is no good way to operate a hardwired well pump off a generator, correct?

I have an offer on a monster of a propane generator from work.  Its a commercial grade Kohler unit.  But its going to be an awful lot of work to get it home...like maybe rent a crane or somethign to lift it onto a trailer.

I've pasted a photo below, wish I had it now.   Scale-wise its about 3 feet tall, output is actually unknown.  The place had it installed for Y2k, ran t in test a few times and basically never used it.  My facilities manager told me I could have it, but I have to get it out of there. 

Bummer.


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## smokinj (Dec 12, 2008)

mayhem said:
			
		

> Well the power is out due to the big ice storm, so now we're wihtout some of the basic services we're so used to.  heat is fine since its relatively mild out and the woodstove is cranking away...along with that we've got the top to cook on and the gas grill is there as well.  Problem is we've got no water since its an electric pump, so we can't flush the toilet, can't make hot water for a shower (whihc we can't take wihtout pressure anyways) and no fridge either.  I can always put the food in a cooler outside if I have to but what about water?  Guess I could always put a huge bucket outside and let it collect whatever water it can from the rain and snow and use that to dump water into the toilet.  Showers will have to wait.
> 
> I don't have a generator...frankly while I've thought about buying one before we've never lost power for more than an hour or so over the last few years.  If I were to purchase one I know I can plug things into the 100 outlets and run them, so the fridge can get taken care of, but is there any way to work with the water pump since its tied into the breaker panel?  I beleive its a 20 amp breaker (though I'm not sure what it actually draws).  It doesn't amke sense that I could use a male to male extension cord and just plug into the house and backfeed through the breaker panel...in fact that seems like it might be dangerous to some extent...but I really don't know.
> 
> ...


the way people back feed is through a 220 out let and then take out the main breaker so there is no problems when the power comes back on (risky move but works)


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## Highbeam (Dec 12, 2008)

Great deal on that Kohler. 

I recently swapped my electrical panel with a generator interlock panel but you can retrofit your panel to be used the same way. Basicly there is a sliding metal tab that only allows you to turn on a "generator" breaker IF the main breaker is flipped to the off position. The generator breaker is wired to a male plug on the outside of the house or directly into that Kohler. Power goes out, flip the main off, slide the interlock, start the genset, turn the generator breaker on and go about your life. Two drawbacks: You won't know when the power comes back on, and you need to be sure that you don't overload the genset by managing your power demands or by turning various circuit breakers off. The interlock device attaches to the panel cover. For all of you observant folks, this is essentially the exact same thing as backfeeding your 220 volt dryer plug and just remembering to flip the main off. However, this is Ul approved and the NEC approves it. Mine was inspected and bought off by the state inspector. I challenge anyone to find a simpler and cheaper whole house solution that is legal.

I only use a 3000 watt genset to feed a 30 amp generator circuit. 

Oh and if the only concern is your well pump then you can simply find a nice place on the well pump circuit to cut it, add a female and male plug pair. Then you can simply unplug the well from the house and plug it into the genset. All of this must be upstream of the controls of course and not out in the yard. I've seen this done with furnaces too.


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## Jags (Dec 12, 2008)

If someone told me that I could have that genset, just get it out of here.  They would be talking to themselves by the end of the sentence.

It would sooooo be in my yard and hooked in with the proper switch.


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## mayhem (Dec 12, 2008)

Just found out the generator went away 2 months ago.  We bartered it for ALOT of work.  Thing turned over and the meter read 8 hours.  Yes, thats right.  I let an essentially brand new, free 200 amp output propane Kohler generator slip away becasue I didn't make the time to go get it.  Had a gyu with a trailer and a built in winch that I could have used to get it too.  I am an idiot.  You can bet that sort of scenaio won't play out again.  It actually fairly likely that it will eventually happen too...we're a bank and in a major expansion phase rihgt now so we're snapping up branches here and there as the opportunities arise.  If we got one with a y2k genset you can bet there will be another eventually.

On the plus side of things though, the juice is back on at the house.  I'm taking some 5 gallon spring water jugs home just in case it goes out again...I'll fill the tubs with cold water too so we cna flush if we have to.

Thanks for the input guys.  Much appreciated.

Guess I'll get my bypass system installed so i cna plug a genset in as necessary, then I'm all set and could even rent one if I really had to.


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## pdboilermaker (Dec 12, 2008)

I run my entire house on with a 5500 watt portable generator.  I pump my own water as well, so I understand where you are coming from about those problems.  The only thing I cant do is run my cloths dryer.  Heres how it works:

1.  Power goes out
2.  Flip main to OFF position
3.  Run cord from generator through the dryer exhaust vent
4.  Plug cord into dryer outlet
5.  Start generator
6.  Power through whole house
7.  Wait for neighbors power to come back on
8.  Kill generator
9.  Flip main to ON position
10.  Complain about how much gas it costs to make power for house
11.  Repeat as needed

The KEY is to kill htat main, no power out of your house no power to your house, it makes you be sel sufficiant


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## smokinj (Dec 12, 2008)

pdboilermaker said:
			
		

> I run my entire house on with a 5500 watt portable generator.  I pump my own water as well, so I understand where you are coming from about those problems.  The only thing I cant do is run my cloths dryer.  Heres how it works:
> 
> 1.  Power goes out
> 2.  Flip main to OFF position
> ...


dont know how true it is but i have heard with the main still in it can ark across the main even when off(again not sure how true it is. i do the same as you but pull the main)


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## Highbeam (Dec 12, 2008)

FALSE. The NEC allows the simple turning off of the main breaker before backfeeding the panel with portable equipment (genset). Of course, you need the interlock to eliminate the chance of the user forgetting to turn off the main.


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## Brian VT (Dec 12, 2008)

Good info. guys.
Sorry for jumping in with "DON'T" so quickly. I just wanted to be on the safe side when he mentioned "it might be dangerous ?"


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## smokinj (Dec 12, 2008)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> FALSE. The NEC allows the simple turning off of the main breaker before backfeeding the panel with portable equipment (genset). Of course, you need the interlock to eliminate the chance of the user forgetting to turn off the main.


makes sence!


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## John_M (Dec 12, 2008)

Here we go! Safety for yourself and others has to be your primary concern when working with electricity. Your secondary concern has to be not to cause property damage (fire, appliance damage from electrcal surges and appliance damage from too little voltage) to your property and that of others. The word appliance in this case refers to any device run by electricity. Your tertiary concern is how to get electricity safely to the various appliances in your house so you can enjoy the comforts of life during a power outage. If you do not know exactly what you are doing and the probable consequences of your actions please do not "experiment" to see what happens. You could and probably will be "shocked" at the consequences of your screw up. You are working with 100 to 200 amps of current. When misused, this can be very destructive to property and fatal. If you do screw up be prepared for a civil case of financial liability and the possibility that your insurance company might deny your claim. 

Do not, under any circumstances make up an extension cord with a male connector on each end. This is inviting big trouble. The only safe and legal way to connect a generator to your main panel is through a properly connected Transfer Switch listed by Underwriter's Labratory (UL) and installed according to the National Electrical Code (NEC). I am not a licensed electrician but I have done lots of wiring over the years and have installed at least two transfer switches and inlet boxes. This work is not difficult but you must know what you are doing and it must be done right. The consequences of screwing up are just too severe. 

If you have a 400' deep well pump you will probably need at least 20 amps@ 240 volts to start/run the pump. Then include the TV, computer, refrigerator, furnace, lights in the bathrooms, a kitchen outlet for coffee, kitchen lights, a bedroom light, etc. You can probably get by with a 5,000 watt generator; 6500 watts is better. Be certain you tell the dealer from whom you are buying the generator that it will be used for home backup power. Some generators must have a neutral/ground bond to meet OSHA requirements for job site electrical safety. That neutral/ground bond might have to be broken/disconnected for home backup power.  Be certain to look into this feature on the generator you use. 

Go to the Gen-Tran web site for lots of wiring diagrams and info. Many public utility web sites also have wiring diagrams which conform to NEC and your local code requirements.  

Sorry about the lecture (it was intended to help and not offend) and the long post. I hope this information provides some help and direction about using a generator for home backup power.  

Best wishes and good health.


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## stee6043 (Dec 13, 2008)

I can attest that the backfeeding idea, while it will power some small items, will not kick your well pump over.  I have a 5500 watt generator and a house that is wired with a separate gen panel with an external plug.  This spring instead of dropping the $70 on making my own ten foot long 30 amp cord to connect the 30 amp plug from the generator to my breaker I tried to do the male-to-male plug idea to get my well pump running just long enough to take a shower.  Did not work.  You just can't get enough juice through a standard extension cord to support a typical well pump.  That hog draws some juice.

The next day I built my cord to do it right and life is good (I'll spare you the story of the five stores I had to visit to find two twist log plug-ends).  So these days when the power goes out I throw the main, throw the interlocking breaker, plug the generator in outside and fire it up.  All of the essentials run fine....and the kegerator keeps cool too....


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## mayhem (Dec 13, 2008)

Guys;

Thanks for al the great advice.  This is exactly why I posted here instead of trying to rig somethign up half assed (or in this, using pretty much my whole ass)...find out from people who know better than I whats wrong with a seemingly good idea.  

Our power came on yesterday afternoon around 1:30, so at about 13-14 hours this was by a very wide margin the longest power outage we've experienced since we biult the house in 2002/3.  There are many, many others in our area that still don't have power and may not for another day or so...for our area this is really severe.  I'm checking in withour friends and neighbors around town today to make sure everyone is ok and if they need it I'll schlep em over my place for a hot meal and a shower.

This summer I'll invest the time and money to install a proper bypass system to run my essentials.  I may never need it again, or I may need twice a year every year.  Best to spend a couple undred to properly prepare for a severe problem and never need it than to not be prepared at all and suffer the consequences down the road.

Still kicking myself on that big Kohler genset...could have run half the neigborhood on that thing.

Thanks once again.


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## jdemaris (Dec 13, 2008)

mayhem said:
			
		

> . . .buying one before we've never lost power for more than an hour or so over the last few years.  If I were to purchase one I know I can plug things into the 100 outlets and run them, so the fridge can get taken care of, but is there any way to work with the water pump since its tied into the breaker panel?
> 
> My well is 440 feet deep so some kind of hand pump is probably out of the question.



We have no power here in central New York and it may be 3-4 days before it's fixed.  But. . . I've got  many backup systems.   Solar-electric with a large battery bank, diesel tractor, PTO generator, and 1000 gallos of diesel fuel, wood heat, etc.

I would like to dispel a few, what I regard, as BS myths.  I hesitate to comment since this subject seems to create a lot of anger (as least my comments do).  I am a former lineman for a large utility company although that was almost 40 years ago.  If your power is out, and you did something really stupid - like backfeeding a small generator into the grid lines - what will happen?   First of all, now-a-days, most if not all power companies insist that all lines are treated as "live" and when working on them  a ground-clamp is attached to the wirre for safety reasons.  Just that prevents you from frying a lineman.  Also, a puny little, let's say 5000 watt generator - hooked to a grid line with a huge demand waiting on the other end?  It would fry your generator in a second (or at least pop the breaker).

Don't get me wrong - I'm not suggesting it's a good thing to do - but come on!  When I was a lineman, we had to work those lines live up to 13,000 volts.  Now adays, they often get shut off first.  I'll also add that the only two deaths we had, while I was a lineman - were both from low-voltage 120 VAC house-current -not high voltage.  120 VAC is often a killer for two reasons.  Being relatively low - people used to working with  power lines often don't fear it as much as something 13,000 volts or higher.  Also, the 120 VAC has Hertz cycles and peaks and valleys at 170 volts.  Those cycles can quickly throw your heart-beat out of rhythm.  So, in brief, low voltage screws up your body's electrical system. 

Now, if  you were to attempt backfeeding -you can do so with a large outlet at your home.  An electric stove or welder - 30 amp or 50 amp outlet works well - IF - your generator has the same. Then a heavy extension cord with dual male ends - one plugged into the generator and one plugged into an outlet will power your household. To do this, you MUST shut off the main breaker, and also shut off most circuits in the house.   You just leave the minimum - frig, water pump, furnace, etc. IF you generator is big enough to run them.  This is NOT the safest or "right" way to do it.  I'm just mentioning that it can be done.

Installing a disconnect "failsafe" changeover switch is much safer.   It eliminates most human error if installed properly.  It is an "either/or" type switch that you plug your generator into.  It eliminates the chance of you backfeeding to the grid.

In regard to your well - your depth means nothing - only the water "head" is an issue.  Many 400 foot wells have water that is 10-30 feet below ground level.  I will also add that there are hand pumps available that can pump from over 200 feet down.  Some even deeper.  A "pitcher" type pump does the actual pumping from the top of the pump so physics limits it to a max of 30 feet draw.  But, deep-well hand-pumps have the handle on top, but the little piston pump itself gets sunk down deep into the well - and all is hooked together with long-linkage.


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## jdemaris (Dec 13, 2008)

stee6043 said:
			
		

> This spring instead of dropping the $70 on making my own ten foot long 30 amp cord to connect the 30 amp plug from the generator to my breaker I tried to do the male-to-male plug idea to get my well pump running just long enough to take a shower.  Did not work.  You just can't get enough juice through a standard extension cord to support a typical well pump.  That hog draws some juice.



I don't know your pump-motor details, but I'll say this.   Years ago, before I had a big PTO generator and solar - I did the following and it worked just fine.   Cheap Homelite 4000 watt generator with an 8 horse Briggs and a single, 240 volt, 20 amp outlet.  I made an extension cord with the 20 amp/240 volt male-plug on one end, and a 50 amp/240 male plug on the other. When power was out - I backfed it into an electric stove outlet - along with turing off the main breaker, and also all the other breakers except my well pump.  Well is 3/4 horsepower, 240 volts.  Worked just fine.  Did this many times over the years when power was out.  Got my well-water pumped up- then shut off that breaker, turning on the furnace breaker and let the oil hot-air furnace run a while. Then, shut off that breaker and let the fridge and lights run.  Worked out 100% fine, just required a lot of running down the basement and playing with breakers. And that was with a cheap 8 horse, $375 generator - rated 4400 watts surge, and 4000 watts full time. Has dual 15 amp  120 VAC outlets and one 20 amp 240 volt outlet.

I'll add that saying you "can't get the juice" though an extension cord is incorrect.  You just have to use the correct size wire -regardless if it's in the wall, in the ground, or used as a portable cord.


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## velvetfoot (Dec 13, 2008)

I'm here burning battery power on the laptop but I'll quickly add this:
I did this earlier in the year, and maybe Highbeam and I were in synch on this, I'm not sure, 'cause I too have one of those SquareD interlocks-nice.
Anyway, I have a well down to 450' (they say).
Earlier in the summer, I tried to power it with a 5kw generator, just for 'laughs'.
It choked.  Kinda scary, 'cause I can't imagine it did the pump any good.  It tripped out.  Still works, thank God.
I measured the amps.  39 amps on startup!
The 7500w generator takes care of it.
Later


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## tkrock (Dec 13, 2008)

pdboilermaker said:
			
		

> I run my entire house on with a 5500 watt portable generator.  I pump my own water as well, so I understand where you are coming from about those problems.  The only thing I cant do is run my cloths dryer.  Heres how it works:
> 
> 1.  Power goes out
> 2.  Flip main to OFF position
> ...



I do the the same thing......BUT i would add step 8.5, Unplug from generator from the house before the main goes back on!  You could damage your generator.


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## jdemaris (Dec 13, 2008)

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> I'm here burning battery power on the laptop but I'll quickly add this:
> 
> I measured the amps.  39 amps on startup!



You were reading 39 amps on each line of a 240 volt circuit?  What size breakers is it hooked to in your service panel?

I've been on battery power for 24 hours now, but the sun in finally coming back out and my battery bank ought to charge up soon via the solar.  Power company says it might be 3-4 days before all power is back on.  My 48 volt bank is reading 44.6 volts right now which is getting a little low. I think the inverters will shut down at 42-43 volts.
I AM having issues with my HughesNet satellite-uplink/downlink for the Internet and I'm not sure why since the sky appears to be clear.

There are many variables with running a well pump.   My in-laws in northern Michigan have a 500 foot well - yet it's artesian and overflows all the time.   These deep wells are sometimes done due to health department well-casing regs, or to get more gallonage, etc.

In my area of New York, the average well depth is 180 feet, and the average water-head is 10-20 feet below ground.  Subsequently, the average well pump is 1/2 horse, 240 volts for homes, and dairy farms often install 3/4 or 1  horse pumps.

1 horsepower = 746 watts, but in reality it takes 1000 watts of electricity to make one horse with the average electric motor. Can be 2, 3, or 4 times that to get the motor started.  Not all motors are the same.  One brand 1/2 horse motor can be an under-used 2 horse motor, while another brand might only be half of that.   Subsequently, every situation and every well can be different.   In my case, with a Gould 240 volt pump called "3/4" horse - my Homelite 4000 watt generator runs it just fine via the 20 amp, 240 volt recepticle.  Close to a 200 foot well but the water is only 10-15 feet down when the pump starts.   I have a barn at at different location with a Burks 3/4 horse in a 220 foot well with water-head 30 feet down. It too works fine off my generator.  I don't even have any grid-power hooked up there  - it's generator power only.    Same for a neighbor of mine that is off-grid solar powered.  He only has a 120 VAC inverter system and does not want to buy a step-up, 120 to 240 transformer just to run his deep well pump.  He installed a large water tank high in his house that gravity feeds water to feed the plumbing.  He fills it every few days with a 5000 watt generator hooked to his well-pump.   I don't know what size pump he has or how deep.  I don't think he knows either.    

I went out on a service call awhile back when someone's water-line froze and their well pump was energized in "lock" full-draw mode for two days straight.  Sears 1/2 horse 240 volt, three-wire pump on dual 15 amp breakers and they did not trip - which is pretty amazing.  Also amazing that the pump is undamaged.  Guess it couldn't overheat sitting in all that cold water.
They bought a new pump anyway and I got the old one.


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## peakbagger (Dec 13, 2008)

I havent verified thison a well pump but a lot of new well pump installations use a Variable Speed AC drive to run the pump versus an across the line starter. In industrial applications, variable speed drives have the handy feature that they ramp up the motor slowly causing little or no motor starting surge unlike an fixed speed pump which can draw 3 times the rated amperage on startup. Might be worth considering going to a variable speed on the next pump install if you are concerned with backup power. 

Completely aside from the starting amperage, a VS drive is going to extend the life of the pump, reduce if not eliminate the pressure tank and supply the house steady pressure with some slight power savings.


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## jdemaris (Dec 13, 2008)

peakbagger said:
			
		

> I havent verified thison a well pump but a lot of new well pump installations use a Variable Speed AC drive to run the pump versus an across the line starter.



They're common in off-grid homes that run off of solar and battery banks.  These "slow start" well pumps work great - but cost about double, sometimes more.

One example is the 120 VAC waterpump made by Grundflo.  Rated to 180 feet deep and will run on a 1700 watt generator or a  1200 watt inverter. The 1/2 horse pump can make 5 GPM at 180 feet.  Costs $700.


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## colebrookman (Dec 14, 2008)

mayhem said:
			
		

> Kind of what I thought...even if I kill the main breaker its still risky to someone...if not the pole worker it'll be me that gets nailed.
> 
> So to be clear. Without the proper switchbox installed there is no good way to operate a hardwired well pump off a generator, correct?
> 
> ...


You could probably just unhook from the main panel and just put a plug in the end with the other end going outside to your generator. Just be careful because you may eliminate the pressure circuit that controls the off and on. But for very infrequent use that may work. Check with an electrician to be safe, or just spend big bucks for a whole house unit.
Ed


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## brad068 (Dec 14, 2008)

Hey guys,

I bought two of the 13hp 6500watt gen sets from Aldi's last year ($400/ea.). They have been working great when I need them. I was thinking of making up a power cord to hook both in parallel. That way I'll have plenty of power to carry on.

My question is can the two be hooked together by just matching up hots, neutral, and ground?

I thought someone told me that they need to be matched on the correct freq. or maybe that was a 3 phase generator.

Anyway, for $400 each with a wheel kit I couldn't pas it up.


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## velvetfoot (Dec 14, 2008)

JD, I think the breaker 30 amps, 240 volts.  The 39 amps is max at startup.  We used it today again for showers.  You really can notice on the 7500 watt generator when the well pump comes on!

Time Warner won't run cable out to where we are and we had looked into satellite, like HughesNet.  Turns out there is a Sprint tower very near us and the wireless broadband is great!


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## Kenny1 (Dec 14, 2008)

Garnification said:
			
		

> My question is can the two be hooked together by just matching up hots, neutral, and ground?



No.

Cheers
kenny


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## jdemaris (Dec 14, 2008)

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> JD, I think the breaker 30 amps, 240 volts.  The 39 amps is max at startup.  We used it today again for showers.  You really can notice on the 7500 watt generator when the well pump comes on!
> 
> Time Warner won't run cable out to where we are and we had looked into satellite, like HughesNet.  Turns out there is a Sprint tower very near us and the wireless broadband is great!



Technically, my next door neighbor has Time Warner cable.   She he the last on the line.  TimeWarner gave me a price-quote of $18,000 to run cable to my home from "next door."
I'll add that I've got over 100 acres and "next door" is a bit of a distance.   Years ago, I asked the cable company why I couldn't build a shed on the property line and have them run cable to it. Then, I'd take care of running it through my own property to my house - and they said absolutely not.

So, we got Hugesnet satellite.  It costs a lot and we have many small outages during the day - which gets anoying - but overall works pretty well on downloading data, and is awful at upload. In fact, sometimes dial-up is faster in the upload mode.

Yesterday was the worst day ever with the satellite hookup - it was out most of the day.  We had a huge ice storm here. Power has been out for days, and everything is glistening from the ice cover.  Yesterday, everytime the sun came out - we lost our signal.  Every time it got cloudy, the signal came back  Weird.

A nearby farmer friend of mine just got Internet access via his cell-phone accout with Verizon and he says it's been working pretty well.  I'm considering it - but - as it is my cell phone only works some times - and when it does - only on one side of my house.


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## velvetfoot (Dec 14, 2008)

Yeah, don't forget to see if you might not have another cell service, like we did with Sprint.  It's working out really well.
You can get an exterior antenna, I think.


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## velvetfoot (Dec 14, 2008)

Taking my daily generator break.
Crews are getting closer, but I'm on a lightly loaded line so who knows.
It's amazing how things sag when the water pump comes on.
I was in the basement, and the oil boiler definately stumbled when that thing came on.
Hopefully not doing harm.


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## Gooserider (Dec 15, 2008)

So far this year we've had two major outages (i.e. more than an hour or so) - neither has been long enough to be a real problem, but did give me reason to test our generator out...  One was a few weeks ago when a tree came down in a windstorm and took out THREE poles - and I didn't even get the tree... :cry:  The other was the ice storm...  We have a generator, and I've been running at home by just doing the 110v extension cord to the critical appliances drill so far - it works but is a bit of a pain....  However we didn't do to badly as we were only out for around 12 hours or so, power went out around midnight Thursday, and came back about noon Friday...  But CommieCast couldn't get our internet back until some time on Saturday -    What good is power without a net connection?

Technically I could backfeed through the outlet I put in for my welder in the garage, however it is worth pointing out that technically it is ILLEGAL to backfeed unless you are using one of those panel interlock switches mentioned earlier, or have a proper transfer switch installed.

I had much more fun on Saturday when we got a call from a friend who was still out.  He wanted to borrow some wood, but we decided to loan him the generator instead - loaded it up in the van, trucked it up to his place, and went off to get the plugs and so forth needed to make a "suicide cord" to backfeed between his dryer outlet and the generator.......  Found some solid 10/3 w/ ground dryer cable, but forget plugs, they were long gone from both Home Despot and Sloews, not to mention local hardware stores, etc...  

Trying to figure out alternatives - I ended up with a seriously scary setup, :bug: but it worked, kept him going until the power came back on late Sunday...  I did find some male 110 AC plugs that were labled 20 amp, and had one blade turned sideways - figured that I could wire one side of the 220 volt drier line to each one and plug into the 110v outlets on the generator and get power that way...  The dryer end I could fake by taking the dryer plug apart and splicing the wires together....  Easy....

Then I found the plugs I'd purchased had the wrong blade turned sideways, so they wouldn't plug into the 20A outlets on the generator...  I removed the ground prongs, which allowed me to flip them over, so they'd plug in, but left me with no ground... So I put one of the hot wires for each leg of the 220 volt line to the hot side of each plug, and put a 12g pigtail from the neutral to each of the neutral prongs, then stripped back the ground wire enough to reach the ground wingnut on the generator - did all this with both the house main and the dryer breakers off, and connected everything, then fired up the generator, and turned on the dryer breaker and a few selected loads, I think he ended up with the furnace, the fridge and freezer, and a few lights - enough to manage with, barely...

I am going to be very glad to get back up there and work on rebuilding that cable with the RIGHT power connectors - may never need it again, but I don't EVER want to have to put that kind of scary connection together again either...

Gooserider


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## stee6043 (Dec 15, 2008)

jdemaris said:
			
		

> stee6043 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, I guess that was the point I was trying to make in a not-so-clear way.  The standard off the shelf "orange" extension cord I was using would not support my well demand.  When I dropped the cash on a 10 foot 10 x 3 wire with the 30 amp twist lock plugs I was good to go when plugged directly in to my breaker.  It was all in the wire in my case...


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## colebrookman (Dec 15, 2008)

Please take that Safety Disconnect seriously. Two years ago a firefighter was electrocuted when the supposedly dead line was back fed from a house generator nearby. Telephone repair men have also been electrocuted from bare broken wires that were back fed from  power lines that were touching. Either buy the correct switch or just plug directly into the appliance. Be safe.
Ed


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## seige101 (Dec 15, 2008)

As i said in the other thread in the pellet forum. Please buy the manual transfer switch kit. It's only $300 bucks at depot, and if you are at least a little savvy with wiring you can do it your self. If not it should not take a decent electrician more than a few hours to install.

Every time there is a extended outage we always hear about 2 things in the news. 1, being a lineman was killed because some idiot homeowner was backfeeding the entire grid, and 2, another idiot homeowner died because they put the generator in the house, or the attached garage.

Please don't cheap out on safety!

Heck i should see what kind of bulk rate i can get these for at the supply house, sell them to you guys at cost, and wire them up for little to no charge (talking cover the gas out there, buy some lunch, and a six pack or a small bottle for the trouble)


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## jdemaris (Dec 15, 2008)

seige101 said:
			
		

> As i said in the other thread in the pellet forum. Please buy the manual transfer switch kit. It's only $300 bucks at depot



Shop around a little and a 100 amp, double-pole manual transfer switch is usually $140- $160.  
Smaller manual switchs, e.g. single pole 50 amp switches are often $100, sometimes a little less.


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## Gooserider (Dec 15, 2008)

I'd love to get a transfer switch, and be able to do the generator connection right at our house at least...  The situation at my friends fell in the category of semi-emergency when you have to do whatever it takes (Given how cold it got Saturday night, he almost certainly would have lost some pipes if I hadn't gotten him hooked up)  Fortunately, while I'm not an electrician, I do have a very healthy respect for juice and a good understanding of how it works...  (I've done work that was subsequently inspected by a code guy, and been praised for doing it better than code required)

The problem in our house is that we don't seem to have a good setup for many of the lower cost options...

I'm not sure if we have the right panel type, and I KNOW we don't have the open breaker slots to do that interlocking plate kit.

We need juice for several small things scattered around the house on different circuits (fridge, freezer, sump pump, GF's CPAP machine, etc. all on different circuits) and we have a sub-panel for some of them so the Home Depot box that taps into the existing panel doesn't work.

As I understand it, a main line transfer switch must be able to carry the full main load, so I need more than a 100 amp switch - I think we have a 200 amp service, I'm not sure...

That said, if I could find a deal on the right setup, I'd definitely be interested.

Gooserider


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## seige101 (Dec 16, 2008)

The kit i am referring to is essentially a subpanel that installs next to your existing panel. It also includes, the wire from the generator to an inlet box usually mounted in the outside of the house, and all the related wiring. http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect...tag&utm_source=nextag&utm_medium=shop+portals Thats the $300 kit i recommend

You feed this with a 50 amp breaker. The subpanel then has about 6-10 circuits, and the breakers are modified, they have a utility, off, generator position. The pre-wired whip that comes with it goes into the main panel, and the circuits you want on the generator connection are then spliced in. Most of these also have a watt meter built in so you have a good idea of what you are running and the draw can then be compared to the rating of the generator. The rule of thumb if you don't want to exceed 80% for continuous duty. 

The interlock kits for the panel themselves are $150 Here. These do not include the plugs or other stuff usually needed. I do not prefer this style because the entire panel will be life, and it's much easier to overload the generator.



			
				Gooserider said:
			
		

> I.
> 
> We need juice for several small things scattered around the house on different circuits (fridge, freezer, sump pump, GF's CPAP machine, etc. all on different circuits) and we have a sub-panel for some of them so the Home Depot box that taps into the existing panel doesn't work.
> Gooserider



I missed the key detail about you having the subpanel.

In your case, one of the interlock kits, a 30 amp 2-pole breaker for the generator part(based on a 5000-7500 watt gen), input plug for the generator, cord for the generator, and wire from the panel to the input plug. Because you said your panel is full, add 2 mini breakers in there to create space for the generator breaker. All told materials would be approx $500 bucks. Another nice thing to have would be watt meters inline somewhere, add about $75-100 if you desire these.

If you are more serious PM me and i can give you an exact list of what you require.


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## struggle (Dec 16, 2008)

Here is what I did. I got a dummy meter base and cut the power cross over tabs far apart so power does not go through the dummy base and wired my generator cord into the power to house only side of my outside box. I have to clamp onto the copper ground wire via vise-grips. 

If power goes out for a long time all I have to do is pull the meter out and install my dummy meter in place. It is completely disconnected from the grid and it powers my whole house except for what I shut off in the panel like things that would over load the generator. 

I have used it a couple of times with a 5500 watt troy built generator and it works like a charm.  

When the power comes back on I just pull the dummy out and put the normal meter back in. 

In 11 years I have lived hear we only had one time we were out of power for more than 3 hours. If I lived somewhere I had multiple power outages I would put in a transfer switch with an outside plug for the generator put as it is we thankfully do not lose power often. My whole neighbor hood is underground serviced so it takes a large transmission line to go down to shut us off.


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## Gooserider (Dec 16, 2008)

struggle said:
			
		

> Here is what I did. I got a dummy meter base and cut the power cross over tabs far apart so power does not go through the dummy base and wired my generator cord into the power to house only side of my outside box. I have to clamp onto the copper ground wire via vise-grips.
> 
> If power goes out for a long time all I have to do is pull the meter out and install my dummy meter in place. It is completely disconnected from the grid and it powers my whole house except for what I shut off in the panel like things that would over load the generator.
> 
> ...



A good idea in some cases, certainly it solves the "disconnecting from the main" problem quite emphatically...  The problem with it though is that in many places (like ours) the electric company puts a seal on the meter mount, such that you can't unplug the meter w/o breaking the seal - and I hear that they get downright obnoxious when the seal is broken....

Gooserider


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## seige101 (Dec 16, 2008)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> A good idea in some cases, certainly it solves the "disconnecting from the main" problem quite emphatically...  The problem with it though is that in many places (like ours) the electric company puts a seal on the meter mount, such that you can't unplug the meter w/o breaking the seal - and I hear that they get downright obnoxious when the seal is broken....
> 
> Gooserider



Yea the power company gets all bent out of shape about that one. Don't ask me how i know this. They get even madder when you cut the locking ring off the meter socket too.. Hey boss told me to change the service, well it got changed.


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## struggle (Dec 16, 2008)

I have done it a couple of times and they just put a new seal back on it and never say anything. They cannot tell you you cannot access your box on your house. At least in my parts they leave us alone. 

I would guess though in areas where theft of electric is more common it might be an issue for the power company.

Heres the dummy meter


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## jdemaris (Dec 16, 2008)

struggle said:
			
		

> I have done it a couple of times and they just put a new seal back on it and never say anything. They cannot tell you you cannot access your box on your house. At least in my parts they leave us alone.



I've dealt with five different power companies with cutting seals - in New York, Vermont, and Michigan.  For myself and for customers.  It has never been an issue yet.   I usually call and ask first, but not always.  They don't get upset unless they suspect fraud.  Remeber, if it's your house, the meter is on your property, and in most places, you actually own the meter socket. 
I just installed a new run-backwards meter here.  I had to pay for the socket and I own it.


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## Highbeam (Dec 16, 2008)

Sure, you pay for it. Just like you pay for the new transformer which you don't own. At least that's the way our power company does it. I had to cut my meter seal when I removed the meter for a new service panel installation. We just did it. I had the power company out to fix a bad connection on their side of the meter and asked them to put on a new one. They did it without any gripes. 

Struggle: That's a truly safe setup except for the time when you need to reinstall the meter into the live meter base after the power comes on. Anytime those sockets are exposed there is risk. Just like removing the panel covers, exposed hot connections are risky.


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## jdemaris (Dec 16, 2008)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> Sure, you pay for it. Just like you pay for the new transformer which you don't own. At least that's the way our power company does it. I had to cut my meter seal when I removed the meter for a new service panel installation. We just did it. I had the power company out to fix a bad connection on their side of the meter and asked them to put on a new one. They did it without any gripes.




Your company must have different policies.  If I pay for a transformer, I own that transformer.  Power company usually owns them for in-air services, but for underground the recent trend is for homeowner to pay for it and own it.  If it fails, the  homeowner pays for it - again.

With meter sockets - maybe 15-20 years ago, the power company paid for them and owned them. Not any more, but they DO own the meters.

With some of this stuff, owning your property DOES matter in certain circumstances.  Just had a go-around with Verizon trying to sue me for damages when I cut their unmarked underground line out in the middle of my cornfield.  Ended up I was NOT liable since a property owner is NOT an outside contractor, and a farmer who cuts an underground line on land he owns - with farm equipment cannot be held liable.

My general point is - property owners - in some cases - have more rights then they might think when it comes to utility company stuff.


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## daveswoodhauler (Dec 16, 2008)

seige101 said:
			
		

> The kit i am referring to is essentially a subpanel that installs next to your existing panel. It also includes, the wire from the generator to an inlet box usually mounted in the outside of the house, and all the related wiring. http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect...tag&utm_source=nextag&utm_medium=shop+portals Thats the $300 kit i recommend



Siege - Thanks much for the post and info for the switch. This is exactly what I was looking for, and gets rid of the 4 cords coming into my house.
Now, all I need is an electrician, cause National Grid is only going to bring the feed to my house, and I still need to get the lines run from the peak to the meter.
Again, thanks for the info


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## struggle (Dec 16, 2008)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> Struggle: That's a truly safe setup except for the time when you need to reinstall the meter into the live meter base after the power comes on. Anytime those sockets are exposed there is risk. Just like removing the panel covers, exposed hot connections are risky.



There really is no more danger to plugging the meter back in then my air-compressor in the outlet which is 220. The meter is much further from the bars than my bare hands would be from the air-compressor plug. 

One thing is to make sure nothing is drawing inside the house when switching them out.


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