# Felling a tree



## G6 at Snook TX (Oct 27, 2011)

What is generally considered the best method for felling a mature oak tree? I.E. is the traditional 45 degree pie appropriate, or is the wider 90 better? On the back cut, do you still recommend coming down on it, or do you now prefer the back cut to come into the hinge parallel to the ground?


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## smokinj (Oct 27, 2011)

parallel to the ground......


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## red oak (Oct 27, 2011)

Why parallel to the ground for the back cut?


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## smokinj (Oct 27, 2011)

red oak said:
			
		

> Why parallel to the ground for the back cut?




Just the way I was taught. Wedge that back cut. Sometimes it can take quite a few!


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## ansehnlich1 (Oct 27, 2011)

so, maybe I'll not make big points with this post, but if you are coming on an internet website to determine how to fell a mature oak you might want to consider hiring someone with experience to do so for you.


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## Kenster (Oct 27, 2011)

First of all, let's give new members credit for asking questions and trying to learn something.  Not all of us were born with a chain saw in one hand and a copy of "To Fell a Tree" in the other.  We all had to learn somewhere, why not here?  I grew up in the West Texas Panhandle.  There were no trees out there.  My dad didn't teach me how to operate a chain saw because he never used one.  I have more trees on my property now than existed in our whole county where I grew up.  (maybe slight exaggeration.) 

If he hires someone to do the job for him he'll never learn.

I suspect the tree in question is not the first one G6 has ever felled.  He's just checking his technique with the members here.  The first tree I ever dropped was a huge Water oak that had been struck by lightning.   I read a little bit about felling trees and took my little cheapo Sears 16 inch to the 30 inch diameter trunk.   My cuts were far from perfect and I  actually had to whittle it down quite a bit but I learned enough from this site to know how to practice safe sawing.   I had my escape routes planned and was constantly watching that trunk- should it decide to fall in a direction I had not planned.   It eventually started tipping over and fell precisely where I wanted it to- not entirely by accident.   I was cutting in an open area in my woods and there was no danger of the tree falling into wires or another building.   I learned enough by reading 100s of threads that I was reasonably confident that I could do the job safely.   I've since felled several trees and I'm still learning how to make my cuts.   I had one tree last winter that fell exactly 180 degrees from where I wanted it, but I still operated safely.   To this day I would never attempt to fell a tree close to a building or power lines.  

Let's encourage new members to learn all they can and do things safely with good equipment, while cautioning them to know their limits, too.


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## firefighterjake (Oct 27, 2011)

+1 Kenster . . .

With a few caveats . . . it always helps to start off cutting with someone who knows what they are doing and can show you the ropes so to speak . . . and it's often easier to start with smaller trees than a monster tree . . . not that the small ones can't kill or injure you as easily . . . it's just that if you pinch a saw or need to give a tree a push in the right direction it's easier with small trees than the big ones.


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## Woody Stover (Oct 27, 2011)

ansehnlich1 said:
			
		

> if you are coming on an internet website to determine how to fell a mature oak you might want to consider hiring someone with experience to do so for you.


We all had to learn at some point. Perhaps you have an experienced acquaintance who could drop it for you and give you some pointers. Or you can check your local library for information. You can probably also find info at any number of _internet websites._ :lol: A beginner should only attempt very straight-forward falls, and of course wear protective gear. Take the tree in the direction it wants to go, and there should be a large open landing area. If it's hitting other trees on the way down, potential dangers lurk. It could also hang up, which is a nightmare. The trunk should be solid wood; If you see dark chips coming out of the cut, look out! When it starts to go, get the hell away at a 45* angle on your cleared escape route, don't stand next to the trunk admiring your handiwork! Be safe, and good luck!


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## JustWood (Oct 27, 2011)

red oak said:
			
		

> Why parallel to the ground for the back cut?



Because it's easier to line up the back cut with your bottom notch cut and NOT cut through the hinge.


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## Thistle (Oct 27, 2011)

Kenster said:
			
		

> First of all, let's give new members credit for asking questions and trying to learn something.  Not all of us were born with a chain saw in one hand and a copy of "To Fell a Tree" in the other.  We all had to learn somewhere, why not here?  I grew up in the West Texas Panhandle.  There were no trees out there.  My dad didn't teach me how to operate a chain saw because he never used one.  I have more trees on my property now than existed in our whole county where I grew up.  (maybe slight exaggeration.)
> 
> If he hires someone to do the job for him he'll never learn.
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> ...



+10 Precisely. We all had to learn sometime.Using common sense,good equipment,safely thought out procedures will help you in so many ways.Just take it slow & dont try to do something you dont feel comfortable with.We can all benefit from each other's knowledge, experiences & history,that's what we're here for.


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## Thistle (Oct 27, 2011)

smokinjay said:
			
		

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You got it Jay.Taught the same way myself. Plus ropes,cable,winch etc in certain cases if need be.


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## G6 at Snook TX (Oct 27, 2011)

I ask because I have read a couple of books on felling trees, and know the basic procedures and safety habits, but there has been some disagreement I have seen on the wedge cut 45* vs. 90* and whether or not bring the back cut in and down to the hinge or parallel. It seems mostly old practice vs. new practice.


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## Kenster (Oct 27, 2011)

G6 at Snook said:
			
		

> I ask because I have read a couple of books on felling trees, and know the basic procedures and safety habits, but there has been some disagreement I have seen on the wedge cut 45* vs. 90* and whether or not bring the back cut in and down to the hinge or parallel. It seems mostly old practice vs. new practice.



I'm not sure how much difference it makes whether you cut the face cut at 45 up to 90 degrees.   But most everything I've ever read or heard says to make the back cut parallel and a bit above the face cut so you will have a good hinge.

I claim no expertise in this.


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## JustWood (Oct 27, 2011)

A 90 degree notch will not close up and break your hinge off till the tree hits the ground = full side to side control of the tree.


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## Kenster (Oct 27, 2011)

uncontrolabLEE said:
			
		

> A 90 degree notch will not close up and break your hinge off till the tree hits the ground = full side to side control of the tree.



A 45 degree cut wouldn't close until the tree is parallel with the ground.  Wouldn't that be just as good?   I'm asking because I don't know.  Just trying to learn. 

And isn't there something call a Humbolt cut, or something like that?  A 45 degree cut with the angle cut _below_ the horizontal cut?  How does that work?


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## Thistle (Oct 27, 2011)

Kenster said:
			
		

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Humboldt cut is normally used on western softwoods,especially those growing on slopes.It was done with hand tools years ago because it was thought to help the tree to 'slide' down away from the stump.Today mills prefer it because it leaves a square cut on the butt log. The lower cut of the 'pie' is in the stump that's left,instead of being in the upper part of the butt log.

Here's one example,good sized Alaskan Yellow Cedar 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-SwpDKkHko&feature=related[/youtube]


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## smokinj (Oct 27, 2011)

Thistle said:
			
		

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Heck now I am confused...Can we now do the plunge felling....lol


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## JustWood (Oct 27, 2011)

Kenster said:
			
		

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45 is closed half way to the ground and hinge is broke off stump.


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## fossil (Oct 27, 2011)

uncontrolabLEE said:
			
		

> ...45 is closed half way to the ground and hinge is broke off stump.



That's what trigonometry tells me.  Cut a 45Â° notch, and that thing will be shut when the tree has fallen 45Â° from vertical on its way down.  Then the hinge will be torn apart.  Rick


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## smokinj (Oct 27, 2011)

uncontrolabLEE said:
			
		

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Learn something new everyday! Never thought about why. lol Guess what I was told, your dead if you dont...


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## bogydave (Oct 27, 2011)

Good info.
I cut my notch just the opposite as SJ's picture. I angle up the bottom cut. I makes the butt round a more usable round, almost straight on both ends.
But the same results.
Straight across on the back cut allow for a wedge to be driven in better, if needed.
A good hinge is important for control. Some guys are real good & can use the hinge to twist the tree one way or the other, lots of practice helps.
Be safe! Have an exit path determined & cleared. Even the best get surprised. When it starts to go, be on your way out of there.
Some info here:
http://forestry.about.com/od/chainsaws/ss/fell_tree_5.htm


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## smokinj (Oct 27, 2011)

bogydave said:
			
		

> Good info.
> I cut my notch just the opposite as SJ's picture. I angle up the bottom cut. I makes the butt round a more usable round, almost straight on both ends.
> But the same results.
> Straight across on the back cut allow for a wedge to be driven in better, if needed.
> ...



Thats because your left coast...lol


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## bogydave (Oct 27, 2011)

I thought it was because I'm standing more upright, South to North. LOL :lol:
You guys down there are more bent over , East/ West & spinning at a faster speed.
Wonder how they do it in Australia, up-side down :lol:


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## smokinj (Oct 27, 2011)

bogydave said:
			
		

> I thought it was because I'm standing more upright, South to North. LOL :lol:
> You guys down there are more bent over , East/ West & spinning at a faster speed.
> Wonder how they do it in Australia, up-side down :lol:



I seen some videos of those guys...Wow and The wood is extremely hard.


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## JustWood (Oct 27, 2011)

The Humbolt is used for many different reasons. It's used felling downhill or at an angle to downhill. Used on softwoods mainly. If you used it on eastern hardwoods on flat ground its a good way to get killed by "springback" or "stump jump". On softwoods felling on hilly ground the Humbolt causes the tree to be thrown away from the working area and also in the process of being "thrown" causes the limbs to be torn off the bottom of the tree making for less work for the feller and taking less power from the yarder while retrieving.
It's not used on hardwoods due to limb structure/strength and top log quality.


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## CTYank (Oct 28, 2011)

Kenster said:
			
		

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Std recommendation I've seen lately is 70 deg face cut to 1/3 the diameter. So the hinge tears off just before the stem lands.
90 deg would be HUGE. Impossible except both sides are angled.


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## JustWood (Oct 28, 2011)

CTYank said:
			
		

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70 degrees is great till the crotch of the tree your cutting strattles another standing  tree 3/4 of the way to the ground at the same time the hinge breaks,,,,; jumps the stump and heads for your pretty face!
Solid, full across the stump hinges with 90 degree+ notches are the safest method. Period.
In certain instances on hillsides or ravines I've used a 130-140 degree notch to guide the tree downhill so that the hinge won't break so the skidder operator doesnt have to chase cable to the bottom. They usualy break when the hit the ground but by then the limbs are dug in and the tree won't slide.


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## bogydave (Oct 28, 2011)

LEE: of the 3, you say the "open face 90Â°+ is the safest?
I typically don't get into big stuff, 18" birch is about the biggest, but am usually out there alone.
I've been using the humboldt, 45Â° +/- (1" above the notch for the back cut) 
 Would I be better (safer) to use the open face with the back cut right at the notch?

the 3 basic notches:
............conventional.........humboldt.............open face


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## JustWood (Oct 28, 2011)

Before cutting always identify potential hazards in the tree and fall path.
When the tree you are felling will NOT come into contact with other trees any of those notches will work although the 90 is safest.
Where contact will be made , the 90 degree is always the safest.
Working alone I wood make your felling cuts at waist height. It's easier to look up while cutting and eliminates a large target area of your back and shoulders to falling debris.


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## ansehnlich1 (Oct 28, 2011)

I wanted to let you all know I stand by my advice to the OP. I don't want to ruffle feathers but this is a new member to this website, joined up 10 days ago, and wants to know how to fell a mature oak tree. With all due respect, I personally have no idea who the OP is, what his skill level is, or anything else about him. I stand by my response in that I think it is more than appropriate advice given the dangers involved. The OP has posted no information indicating he has any felling experience whatsoever. I simply think it negligent on my part to do anything other than advise him to seek professional assistance in the felling of a large oak tree.


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## G6 at Snook TX (Oct 28, 2011)

I have felled about two trees in my life, and I have split plenty of wood and have handled a chainsaw numerous times. I have been told two different ways of how to fell a tree by the men who were helping me. I don't cut trees alone because you need someone to call the meat wagon if something goes wrong. Anyhow, as I said in an earlier post, I have read several books on the subject, particularly "To Fell a Tree" by Jeff Jepson, and he is an advocate of the 90* method over the traditional, 45*, as he put it. 

I am just looking for best practice or consensus if one can be found, but I will bring my own trees down, other than the ones in power lines or near the house. That takes professional skill I don't have and may never have, but I like challenges and using my hands, and that is why I learned to mechanic on old machinery; that is why I have no problem cutting and splitting wood because it would be easier to call a local fellow for x amount of firewood and write him a check. Sometimes you have soil you pants and jump on in.


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## smokinj (Oct 28, 2011)

G6 at Snook said:
			
		

> I have felled about two trees in my life, and I have split plenty of wood and have handled a chainsaw numerous times. I have been told two different ways of how to fell a tree by the men who were helping me. I don't cut trees alone because you need someone to call the meat wagon if something goes wrong. Anyhow, as I said in an earlier post, I have read several books on the subject, particularly "To Fell a Tree" by Jeff Jepson, and he is an advocate of the 90* method over the traditional, 45*, as he put it.
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> I am just looking for best practice or consensus if one can be found, but I will bring my own trees down, other than the ones in power lines or near the house. That takes professional skill I don't have and may never have, but I like challenges and using my hands, and that is why I learned to mechanic on old machinery; that is why I have no problem cutting and splitting wood because it would be easier to call a local fellow for x amount of firewood and write him a check. Sometimes you have soil you pants and jump on in.



Speaking of soiling your pants, Tree felling a good way to fill them up fast!  :lol:


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## Danno77 (Oct 28, 2011)

Bogy posted about three or four posts up the three common cutting methods. Use them on a straight looking tree of normal stature (don't cut a 5" tree nor a 50" tree for your first few).

My advice, should you chose to cut Without a pro teaching you (we talk about classes offered all the time), is to have a buddy along. This is good for several reasons.

1. You can discuss the lean of the tree, or the nature of the weight, and discuss what way you both think it might come down.
2. You can spend your time looking at the saw and the cut you are making, and your buddy can be nearby to pay attention to what the tree is doing.
3. If the fell goes wrong, you have emergency help.

Edit: I wanted to add that I read your post where you state that you don't cut alone, so it's not that I wasn't listening to what you say, but I was just emphasizing some points for any readers of the thread.

P.S. I read the debates on the angled down cuts and came to the conclusion that parallel to the ground is better for me, because it leaves you with the ability to throw some wedges in there without shearing the stump or the tree.


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## bogydave (Oct 28, 2011)

uncontrolabLEE said:
			
		

> Before cutting always identify potential hazards in the tree and fall path.
> When the tree you are felling will NOT come into contact with other trees any of those notches will work although the 90 is safest.
> Where contact will be made , the 90 degree is always the safest.
> Working alone I wood make your felling cuts at waist height. It's easier to look up while cutting and eliminates a large target area of your back and shoulders to falling debris.



Thanks 
1 Permit rule - stumps no taller than 12"; but I can cut them off after the tree is down.
SiL cut one last week, just as it hit another trees limbs it closed the notch & hung up on a limb. His notch was not even 45Â°. (close to 30Â°) 
I carry a grappling hook which I threw into the top &hooked; a branch & was able to pull it down.
Now that we've discussed the notch degree a little, I'll make sure to make the notches bigger.
& when/if SIL helps again, explain it to him also.
Like said, not big trees but still can be dangerous if done wrong. "Stupid hurts"
Thanks for the experienced tips" 
I'll put them in practice on my next tree cutting. 
I'm sure others will also.


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## mtcates (Oct 29, 2011)

This is a good thread from some time ago on this same subject.   https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/59685/


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## ecocavalier02 (Jan 4, 2012)

i do agree that it does greatly help to have someone who is there to help you learn. i've gotten into some pretty good pickles when i was learning. made from some nerve racking soiling pants experience. lol.


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## Kenster (Jan 4, 2012)

"Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards."


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## G6 at Snook TX (Jan 4, 2012)

I had one of those experience lessons yesterday. I mis-cut a large post oak tree. I came in low on the flat back cut. I re-cut at the old 45* angle and ultimately had a giant post oak with with two open faces and a minor hinge. I finally screwed up my courage, whittled some on the tree with my saw, and it finally went over after I sprinted out. My blood was pumping that day. And I won't make that mistake again. Should get about 1 1/2 to 2 cords of wood out of it.


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## ecocavalier02 (Jan 4, 2012)

G6 at Snook said:
			
		

> I had one of those experience lessons yesterday. I mis-cut a large post oak tree. I came in low on the flat back cut. I re-cut at the old 45* angle and ultimately had a giant post oak with with two open faces and a minor hinge. I finally screwed up my courage, whittled some on the tree with my saw, and it finally went over after I sprinted out. My blood was pumping that day. And I won't make that mistake again. Should get about 1 1/2 to 2 cords of wood out of it.


 when u first started cuttig that seemed to be my problem. I would make my back cut and Struggle to keep the saw level and would drift lower than my notch. That's a thing of the past. But was scary a few times lol.


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## Wood Duck (Jan 4, 2012)

Hey G6,
My advice is to find some small trees to fell and practice on those. Start with trees that have a small but distinct lean in one direction and fell them in the direction of the lean. After a few of those work your way up. One significant difference between large trees and small young trees (aside from the increased chance they will crush you) is that large, old trees may not be solid the whole way through and that means they can do unexpected things when you cut part way through. To me the unknown rot or hollow in the middle is the toughest part of felling a tree.


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## G6 at Snook TX (Jan 4, 2012)

I suppose this can go in the "The Gear" as much as the continuation of this thread, but anyhow we finished splitting that large post oak that I messed up cutting on Monday. It had about 2 1/2 to 3 cords of wood in it. It also had part of an old barbed wire fence in it as well. I hit a couple of times while slicing it up, but it did not muck up the saw. Also, the tree had just died, but it was still plenty green as the splitter went into the wood the wedge was often wet. Also, which is odd for old post oaks (the size makes me think it was about 125 years old) it was solid stem to stern--no rot. Finally, several months ago I queried the forum about Iron an Oak Splitters and the consensus is that they are first rate. They are. I worked my Robin powered 26ton unit hard today. Both vertical and horizontal--each has it purposes, but I prefer horizontal splitting, but it did get stoned a couple of times. That old solid tree had some of the most knotty angles in it and on about three occasions I had to tell the young men helping me to let it be and start elsewhere. On a tree that big, I probably would have needed 34 ton in those instances. 

Lastly, I had two local hs seniors helping me. They are some tough hombres and it is a pleasure to work with young men who will work hard, be pleasant as they work, do as they are told but free lance enough to work around a problem. There may be some rot in the youth of our country, but there are still young men who are willing to work, smart, and virtuous.


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## Wood Duck (Jan 4, 2012)

A few posts back Bogeydave asked if the back cut for a 90 degree face cut should be horizontal and level with the notch on the face cut. Did anybody answer? I'd like to know. I always thought the back cut should be horizontal and a couple of inches above the notch of the face cut.


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## wetwood (Jan 6, 2012)

inevitabLEE said:
			
		

> Before cutting always identify potential hazards in the tree and fall path.
> When the tree you are felling will NOT come into contact with other trees any of those notches will work although the 90 is safest.
> Where contact will be made , the 90 degree is always the safest.
> Working alone I wood make your felling cuts at waist height. It's easier to look up while cutting and eliminates a large target area of your back and shoulders to falling debris.



ThankyouLEE for that explanation. I have always used 90 cuts for the notch. Wanted to try a 45 notch but never did it. I don't get to cut very many tall thin trees, their always broad at the top with large limbs so I'll keep cutting 90's.


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## onetracker (Jan 6, 2012)

smokinjay said:
			
		

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true dat sj....

always a rush and a moment or two of uncertainty when dropping a big'un.
and such a feeling of accomplishment when it lands precisely where you aimed it.


ummm...alright i'll fess up...once (maybe 20 years ago) i dropped a medium sized locust on an abandoned outbuilding - unintentionally i might add. i am so grateful for the experience in that no one got hurt, and that it taught me volumes about the physics and unpredictability of dropping 2 tons of wood from 80 feet. it was rotten inside and i mis-read the center of gravity. the error was about 45 degrees from where i thought i was aiming it. pretty bad.

stay safe

OT


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## bpirger (Jan 7, 2012)

Having a cell phone in your pocket, if you have service, can also be a lifesaver.  I cut alone on my property, but I call back to the house after a few (maybe 10-15) minutes...just as a safety.

My biggest concern is those "barber chair" events, when the tree basically breaks apart and drops downward, without actually tipping over first.  In other words, I assume that happens pretty damned fast, and since it is going downwards from the bottom, right around where the feller is standing, it can be deadly.

Is there any rule of thumb for when these are more likely?  My understanding is that with a leaning tree, they are more apt to do this, as when you cut the notch you have weakened the tree in the "direction" of the lean, assuming you are felling in the direction the tree wants to fall.

Are there any "signs" of something like this?

I also think the point about knowing when the tree is going to come in contact with other stuff, which is ALWAYS in my case cutting in the woods.  When this something else is significant, this greatly increases chances in funny things happening with the butt and the stump...like it bouncing backward funny, or slidding backwards off the stump, etc.  This is why you don't run 180 degrees away from where it is going to drop....apparenlty many have been killed by the tree sliding back off the stump, hit in the back as they walked away, but found dead that way.  Another thing I never do....turn my back to the tree once that notch is cut.


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## Thistle (Jan 7, 2012)

bpirger said:
			
		

> Having a cell phone in your pocket, if you have service, can also be a lifesaver.  I cut alone on my property, but I call back to the house after a few (maybe 10-15) minutes...just as a safety.



Same here. I do 90+% of my wood cutting on parents property & 99% of that is done alone. Cell phone is always in front pants pocket no matter the time of year & I'm rarely more than 10  minutes walking distance from their house.Also I wear some combination of hi-vis clothing in blaze orange and/or neon yellow such as forestry helmet,vest,hoodie or regular sweatshirt,t-shirt etc depending on temps & weather conditions.I want others to SEE me,especially when working near east property line next to that sparsely traveled gravel road.

I always tell them 'If you dont see a moving blurry spot of orange/yellow out in the woods somewhere,that means I'm either sitting down or lying down'


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## Flamestead (Jan 7, 2012)

Many of the logging companies in our area require new hires to take a felling course, regardless of their past experiences, and to do onging safety training. I cut trees for years without formal training and was confident I could get it on the ground, but wasn't quite so confident I could do it safely about 30% of the time. Since I've had some training, my comfort level has greatly increased. Before seeing this thread this morning I was just talking with my wife about how every year at this time I pull out and review some of the training material before starting my annual month or two of felling trees. 

Saws and trees bite and whack hard and fast. As a teenager, working for a farmer, not running the saw, I ended up in the hospital with a pelvis broken in four places. The tree didn't go where intended, hung, and in the process of getting it down the butt came off the stump and got me. Proper felling technique may have avoided the initial hang, proper hinge may have kept the butt attached, and so on.

Training from a professional trainer is highly recommended.

Regarding height of the cut, I often cut one stick of stovewood length up from the ground for my convienence, and later cut the stump and toss it on the pile. However, there are many times the flare can be helpful in providing a better hinge, so I cut lower. If I were after a saw log, I would go as low as I could.


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