# Bio Diesel for heating



## Catskill (Sep 24, 2008)

Has anyone had any experience using (or making) BioDiesel and fueling their oil burner with it? I know people here primary focus on wood but I thought it would be a nifty way for some to take another step toward their personal energy independence. 

Please post your experiences or thoughts. Thanks.


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## Dune (Sep 24, 2008)

I have some experience, but your question is actualy too broad for a quick simple answer. More details please, for example, what do you mean by biodiesel? Todays general conotation of biodiesel is a mix of 20% vegatable oil and 80% petro-diesel. If this is what you mean, pour it in, it will run fine. If you are talking about true biodiesel (100% vegatable oil), it is a different story, and I will be glad to discuss it with you.


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## Corey (Sep 24, 2008)

I would think to simply make fire, there would be no need to expend the energy/time/money to make biodiesel...just burn the veg oil or WVO directly.


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## Catskill (Sep 24, 2008)

Dunebilly said:
			
		

> I have some experience, but your question is actualy too broad for a quick simple answer. More details please, for example, what do you mean by biodiesel? Todays general conotation of biodiesel is a mix of 20% vegatable oil and 80% petro-diesel. If this is what you mean, pour it in, it will run fine. If you are talking about true biodiesel (100% vegatable oil), it is a different story, and I will be glad to discuss it with you.



Well, I worded it broadly because I'm looking to solicit every ones experiences.  I didn't expect one size fits all replies. Some folks may get B5 or B20 pumped in by their local oil dealers and some folks may brew B100 in their garage. What are your experiences Mr. Dunebilly?


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## AndrewChurchill (Sep 24, 2008)

I was already to start making biodiesel for heating my house until gas spiked and people started grabbing up all the used veg oil.  I had my diesel car converted to run on used veg oil and I am finding it hard to gather enough oil for my 500 mile weekly commute.

It's also not as easy as simply pouring in B100 since biodiesel reacts with copper. So any copper pipes need to be changed to stainless steel. Also, you have to have the oil pumped into the burner at 150 psi which with newer boilers isn't much of an issue but older boilers may need to have new parts installed.

Biodiesel is an excellent solvent so any sludge that is in your old storage tank is going to start plugging up your oil filter so you'd want to be prepared for that.

Buying biodiesel is much more expensive than K1 or K2 fuel.  So the most cost effective solution would be to make it.  It's relatively easy to do (I've done it), but you will be dealing with Methanol, Lye, and potentially Sulfuric Acid.

Getting rid of the by product can be a problem as well.

As a result of the above mentioned items I decided it was easier to buy a PB 105 pellet boiler.


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## Catskill (Sep 24, 2008)

Thanks Andy... good info there.

Dunebilly I'd like to hear about any experiences you'd care to share.


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## Dune (Sep 25, 2008)

I still don't know exactly what you are trying to acomplish, what is your source of biofuel? Aside from that, I will say that one of the most effective systems I have seen utilizes a small deisel genset. The coolant from the generator engine heats the house, the gen provides enough electricity above and beyond the needs of the house during the heating season that the excess power which is sold to the grid is then supllied back to the house in the summer, providing no electric bill at all. Diesels can be run on either pure veg oil, or converted veg oil, but the convertion adds time and expence. Gensets are ideal for pure veg oil because they don't need frequent starts and stops.


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## Catskill (Sep 25, 2008)

Dunebilly said:
			
		

> I still don't know exactly what you are trying to acomplish, what is your source of biofuel?



Nevermind. Thanks for the reply.


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## Catskill (Sep 25, 2008)

Andrew Churchill said:
			
		

> I was already to start making biodiesel for heating my house until gas spiked and people started grabbing up all the used veg oil. I had my diesel car converted to run on used veg oil and I am finding it hard to gather enough oil for my 500 mile weekly commute.
> 
> It's also not as easy as simply pouring in B100 since biodiesel reacts with copper. So any copper pipes need to be changed to stainless steel. Also, you have to have the oil pumped into the burner at 150 psi which with newer boilers isn't much of an issue but older boilers may need to have new parts installed.
> 
> ...



I can see your logic. I live in a fairly populated area and I'm going to investigate some possible sources for oil (just for kicks) and tinker with the idea a little bit more. I'm glad to see someone else had the same idea but I am a little supprised to see it not batted about here. Like I said before everyone here must be focused on wood.


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## steam man (Sep 25, 2008)

I have looked at trying biodiesel (not straight WVO) at home. Basically, up to 5% is no problem. Up to 20% you need to redo some fuel supply items because of the issues mentioned above. Over 20% you need to modify the burner pump seals, o-rings, etc... I use a Reillo burner and they seem to be the only ones who actually make a "biodisel use" kit for retrofitting their burners. I am not aware of Beckett, Carlin, or others that have approved over 20% biodiesel use yet. 

Mike


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## Catskill (Sep 25, 2008)

More good info. Perhaps some research in a "Bio Ready" or a "Bio Retrofit" oil burner is in order. Thanks Mike!


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## JustWood (Sep 25, 2008)

Not biodiesel but along similiar lines. All the waste oil from our equipment and trucks is dumped in a settling tank for 2-3 weeks then filtered and drained into another settling tank and filtered once again after 2-3 weeks before being pumped into trucks ,generator, or equipment. My dad also mixes it with his HHO. My gen set and equipment are not as sensitive to the mix ratio as my trucks are. 3% max mix ratio for the trucks.

 Dad has been mixing waste oil with HHO for years and has had no problems.


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## Tfin (Sep 25, 2008)

I've done a little research into the subject and I've heard everything from what steel man states to those that have been running B100 for home heating for over two years with no changes to their current setup and no issues.  

Lots of info out there.  Here's a forum that discusses the topic in more detail:

http://www.biodieselnow.com/forums/default.aspx?GroupID=2


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## lepp (Sep 25, 2008)

On another thread, KeithO posted a link to the cutest little wood stoves you ever saw for use on boats. The company is working on a BioDiesel version. Here's the link: (scroll down to the "Herring").  So there is someone working on this for hearth applications.

http://www.marinestove.com/sproducthistory.htm


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## Catskill (Sep 28, 2008)

I'm picking up my first load of WVO tomarrow. We'll see how it goes.


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## eba1225 (Sep 29, 2008)

Good Luck, keep us informed.


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## Catskill (Oct 3, 2008)

Well, I've made a 2 liters test batch that's "drying". I'll post some pics what all is said and done. So far it's been a good learning experience.


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## bayshorecs (Oct 3, 2008)

Dunebilly said:
			
		

> Todays general conotation of biodiesel is a mix of 20% vegatable oil and 80% petro-diesel.



Wow.  That is completely wrong.  That is refered to as "blending", not biodiesel.  I think you are confused about what is B20.  

B20 is 20% BIODIESEL and 80 petro-diesel.  B5-B20 is becoming more popular at the pumps.  B100 is 100% biodiesel.  

Biodiesel is made from converting vegetable oil, methanol, and lye (for a catalyst) into Biodiesel.  It is not simple blending raw oil and diesel together.

Maybe you know this already, but your post is very misleading.


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## billb3 (Oct 3, 2008)

bayshorecs said:
			
		

> Dunebilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think that's what he meant by "connotation." 
Too many people call biofuel biodiesel.
and no, bio diesel is not 100% vegetable oil , it's transesterified vegetable oil, or alcohlized something or other. I can't pronounce the other term for  transesterification. My tongue cramps.

The same problems with terms happens with ethanol, E85 and gasahol discussions with laypersons  like myself.


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## kenny chaos (Oct 4, 2008)

I burned some straight WVO in my old woodstove last year.  Kept the surface temp a nice steady 300 degrees.  I filled a two pound coffee can about three quarters up with wvo, added about a quarter inch of kerosene to get her going, wadded up a paper towel and dropped that in for a wick and lit it.  Incredibly, horribly, sooty.  Not a good clean burn.
I'd like to find a miniature version of a wvo furnace burner to mount in woodstove for stove top temps of 500 degrees.  That would use a lot less oil than required for an oil furnace but enough to heat this old stone tomb we call a home.


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## Catskill (Oct 11, 2008)

Some pics from making BioDiesel

Ingredients: Waste oil, (edit) methanol, lye (Far right pic)

Freshly reacted unwashed BioDiesel (Middle pic)

Washed BioDiesel, notice the bi-product and water at the bottom (Far left pic)


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## Dune (Oct 13, 2008)

So now that you have done the work, cleaned the mess, bought the ethanol and lye, you may be interested in finding ways to utilize unprocessed or pure veg oil, if your supply is large and stable enough. For me, here in the land of fryolators, there are way too many people already taking the product, often without permission of the restaurant owners to even bother. I have helped others setup systems though, and as I said earlier, the very best of those provides the owner with heat and electricity, and utilizes unprocessed veg oil.


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## bayshorecs (Oct 13, 2008)

Catskill said:
			
		

> Some pics from making BioDiesel
> 
> Ingredients: Waste oil, ethanol, lye (Far right pic)
> 
> ...



You mean methanol, not ethanol.  Those are 2 completely different things.  BD CAN be made with 99% pure ethanol, but not easily by a homebrewer.  Ethanol is too dry and pulls moisture from the air lowering the percentage to low-mid 90s.  With that much water pickup, making quality fuel is very difficult.


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## Catskill (Oct 13, 2008)

bayshorecs said:
			
		

> You mean methanol, not ethanol.



You are correct, a brain fart on my part.


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## Catskill (Oct 13, 2008)

Dunebilly said:
			
		

> So now that you have done the work, cleaned the mess, bought the ethanol and lye, you may be interested in finding ways to utilize unprocessed or pure veg oil, if your supply is large and stable enough. For me, here in the land of fryolators, there are way too many people already taking the product, often without permission of the restaurant owners to even bother. I have helped others setup systems though, and as I said earlier, the very best of those provides the owner with heat and electricity, and utilizes unprocessed veg oil.



As before, I’d like to hear about any experiences you’d care to share. A generator sounds interesting.

At the moment I'm shopping around for a VW TDI to play around with and do some hands on experimentation with an SVO kit. As near as I can tell there is plenty of waste oil in my neck of the woods up for grabs.


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## Dune (Oct 13, 2008)

Right. If I had access to product, I would also use it in a vehicle first. A diesel can be run on nonconverted veg oil, with alterations to the vehicle fuel system. The important difference between diesel and veg is the temperature of vaporization and the viscosity. The minimum temp. of vaporization  of veg is 145F and idealy higher, pref. 180F . Because a cold diesel will not start on veg, it is necasry to install an aditional diesel tank with valving  A start /stop procedure would involve starting the engine on diesel, switching to veg upon warmup, then switching back to diesel before shut down to replace the veg oil in the engines fuel system with diesel.. A heat exchanger to preheat the veg may be nessary depending upon engine design, and fuel line routing. All this can be avoided if one wants to take the time and cost to convert the veg, and considering the very small fuel consumption of the vehicle you mentioned, it may be a better option. However if one were to use larger amounts of fuel, unprocessed may be more profitable.


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## Catskill (Oct 14, 2008)

Thanks for the recap of WVO cars, I'm fairly well studied up on those myself. You mentioned working on a generator earlier. If you'd care to share your experience I'd appreciate it.


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## bayshorecs (Oct 14, 2008)

Seen too many trashed SVO engines myself.  While some have good luck, high milage SVO cars are rare due to the strict disipline one needs to make sure they switch back and forth the fuel timely.  Making a batch of BD100 takes me 2-3 hours at processor time for a 45 gallon batch.  Cost is $.89 a gallon.  After running 100k miles on my homebrew, I am pretty certain I am doing something right in my process.

- No car conversions
- No risk to motor (pre common rail or PD VW cars IMO)
- Minor amount of effort
- A whole lot more peace of mind

I would love to get a small diesel generator myself to try out.


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## Dune (Oct 14, 2008)

I am sure I don't know much you can't find online. If you can convert a car engine you can certainly do the same to a genset. As I said in my private post to you, I am posting here to try to help with the global warming scenario. If you need help designing a custom heat exchanger I may be able to offer some pointers, or answer specific questions. As I have no idea of your skills or knowledge, generalities are somewhat of a waist of time, as my last post illustrated. My main point was simply that the conversion process is not the only way to go, which may or may not be general knowledge depending upon who you are.


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## Dune (Oct 14, 2008)

bayshorecs said:
			
		

> I would love to get a small diesel generator myself to try out.






A good source for small used diesel gensets here on the coast is marina/boatyards. Those with water cooled exhaust manifolds are particulaly well suited, as the ability to utilize waist exhaust heat is greatly simplified. Not sure if that helps, due to your location.


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## jdemaris (Oct 14, 2008)

Dunebilly said:
			
		

> A diesel can be run on nonconverted veg oil, with alterations to the vehicle fuel system. The important difference between diesel and veg is the temperature of vaporization and the viscosity.



Lube can also be a big problem.  Waste vegetable oil can be many things - and some fats and oils have high lube, and some low.  Not all diesel engines are worth messing with. Most automotive diesels in the USA have rotary-distributor injection pumps and they are the worse possible candidates for running on WVO.  They cannot take much abuse, and just about always have much shortened lifes when used on homemade fuel.  Most people that use them sucessfully (in a cost-effective sense) do so because they do their own repair work, and shop around for spare pumps - cheap.  A spare pump might cost $50, where-as a pump sent to a registered shop for repair might cost $1000.  
 Using a diesel with an in-line pumps is a much better choice as they are incredibly more rugged.
That's what the very first sucessful diesel in the world used (NOT invented by Rudolph Diesel).  Very common in the rest of the world - but not much here on autos and small trucks.  Much more common on big-rigs, farm and industrial tractors.  Only ones that come to mind are - a few Mercedes and Peugot cars and 1993 and up a few years on Dodge trucks with Cummins 5.9s.
 Volkswagen, Isuzu, General Motors, Ford-IH, etc. all use rotary-distributor pumps. Either the original invented by Vernon Roosa in the USA (Stanadyne/Roosmaster), or the licensed copies made by CAV, Lucas, Diesel Kiki, and Bosch.




			
				Dunebilly said:
			
		

> Because a cold diesel will not start on veg, it is necasry to install an aditional diesel tank with valving  A start /stop procedure would involve starting the engine on diesel, switching to veg upon warmup, then switching back to diesel before shut down



There are variations depending on the content of the homemade fuel.  Some engines get by with only one tank and have the ability to make cold-starts on pure homemade  fuel if it's hot real cold out (plus 30F).  These variations use specific engines and specialized glow plugs made to help in starting with home-brew fuel.   But yeah, for the most part - the two tank system is safer and better - especially with USA built diesels.   Not much different than the 1930s - 1940s all-fuel farm tractors that ran on gas, alcohol, or diesel oil with spart ignition. They used dual tanks and a switch over valve.  Always had to be started on gas, and then switched over when hot.


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## Catskill (Oct 16, 2008)

bayshorecs said:
			
		

> Seen too many trashed SVO engines myself.  While some have good luck, high milage SVO cars are rare due to the strict disipline one needs to make sure they switch back and forth the fuel timely.  Making a batch of BD100 takes me 2-3 hours at processor time for a 45 gallon batch.  Cost is $.89 a gallon.  After running 100k miles on my homebrew, I am pretty certain I am doing something right in my process.
> 
> - No car conversions
> - No risk to motor (pre common rail or PD VW cars IMO)
> ...



Can I ask you where you get your methanol supply and a quick and dirty discription of your processor?


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## bayshorecs (Oct 16, 2008)

Catskill said:
			
		

> bayshorecs said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I get my methanol from the local race track.  Out of season, I get it from one of the propane distributors local here (pay a premium and sales tax though).  In cold climates, propane companies use methanol to add a splash to the tanks.  It absorbes the water vapor in the tank to keep the valve from freezing.  The lye (KOH) is mail order or pickup from Boyer chemical in La Grange Illinois.

My processor is a standard appleseed design for the most part (check out the infopop forums).  

- move the 45 gallons of raw soy WVO to the 55 gallon water heater tank
- heat to 130F
- titrate the oil to know how much lye to add
- add 20% meth (around 9 gallons) + lye mix (most times about 1550 grams of lye)
- process for 2-3 hours
- settle and drain off glycerin
- reheat to 180F and recover 1 gallon of excess meth from the 45 gallons of bio
- move to settling tank and bubble air through the bio to remove trace amount of meth
- move to centrifuge for polishing the final small amounts of soap left in the bio (stop when I get under 100ppm of soap)
- move to storage tank
- pump into the car


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## velvetfoot (Nov 3, 2008)

John Ray in Troy, NY is selling 20% soybean derived biofuel.
http://www.johnray.com/biofuels.php
I ran a tank or tow in a VW Beetle TDI I used to have.


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