# Indoor boiler advice needed



## andym (Feb 7, 2020)

Hi all. I'm new to the forum here, but have been casually (obsessively according to my sweet wife) reading up on these indoor gasifiers. Im 29 and have lifelong experience burning wood, but have just recently been made aware of a (not so) new way of doing it: the indoor boiler with storage! I'm almost convinced. I was planning to install an OWB this summer until I realized:
#1 most used units were nearly worn out and cheap or nearly new and costly.
#2 new units (even non EPA which can still be bought) were very expensive
#3 all are rather inefficient. 

Im currently leaning toward the indoor boiler with storage. My first question is one I haven't seen asked yet. When you only  do a 3 to 6 hr batch burn to reheat storage, does the fire go out completely? I don't like the thought of always relighting. I would much rather keep a smaller fire going all day like I do now with a EPA wood stove. Is that possible using a modulating boiler?

This is getting too long, so I'll stop for now. Any comments?


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## 3fordasho (Feb 7, 2020)

andym said:


> Hi all. I'm new to the forum here, but have been casually (obsessively according to my sweet wife) reading up on these indoor gasifiers. Im 29 and have lifelong experience burning wood, but have just recently been made aware of a (not so) new way of doing it: the indoor boiler with storage! I'm almost convinced. I was planning to install an OWB this summer until I realized:
> #1 most used units were nearly worn out and cheap or nearly new and costly.
> #2 new units (even non EPA which can still be bought) were very expensive
> #3 all are rather inefficient.
> ...



Some of the lambda controlled boilers shut the air inlets at the end of the burn to help hold coals - mine does it and will still have live coals after 12 hrs but not usually after 24hrs.   Since I do once a day burns this does not help me but I've found that lighting a new fire is so easy it's not a big deal.

My start procedure is to position charcoal over the nozzle, start the inducer fan on the boiler and wave a propane torch on the charcoal for about 30 seconds.  With the fan running they light up very easily.  Then load splits, wait for flue temps to hit about 200f and close the door.  Usually about 5 minutes tops.


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## jebatty (Feb 8, 2020)

Agree. When my 2007 Tarm Solo Plus 40 shuts down after a burn, some charred coals remain. I too position those over the nozzle, add a few sticks of kindling, then a couple of handsful of wood shavings from my shop planer (could use newspaper knots) on top with some small splits on top of that for a top down start. After the start is doing well for a couple of minutes, add splits for the burn. The key to an easy start is dry dry kindling and dry wood. All very easy and fast.


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## Bad LP (Feb 8, 2020)

My Tarm is a PITA starting from cold when the unit has sat idle for a week or two. When warm it’s not so bad. From coals it gets ripping pretty good using some small splits. 

I’m sure the new stuff with variable speed fans and electronic controls are vastly improved.


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## peakbagger (Feb 8, 2020)

My old time Burnham is a wood/coal design with bottom grate. It rarely if ever has coals in the bottom. As long as I have had a burn in the last 24 hours, the boiler is still warm and the stack is still warm. A relight doesnt take long.  The biggest PITA is I need to store up newspapers for relights. I keep a few boxes of kindling and Amazon supplies plenty of shipping boxes. It does not take a lot longer doing a relight from scratch then with a few coals.


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## maple1 (Feb 8, 2020)

My answers to your questions are yes, and not likely.


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## andym (Feb 8, 2020)

That's about what I gathered from my reading. I currently have a small stove in the basement that will heat the entire house in mild weather. After that the propane furnace kicks in. We light the fire sometime in October and keep it going til April usually, except of course if we're gone for the day. My wife doesn't work so it is easy to keep loading it during the day. However, I would prefer not to have to feed it every hour or two, and would love to get a 8 hr overnight burn. That's what really drew me to the OWB. Load it once or twice a day and that's it. 

Is it possible to operate one of the modulating boilers in this manner? I know some efficiency is lost by doing it this way, but I'm not concerned about a couple %. Anything is better than an OWB afterall!

I would still install some storage capacity to act as a buffer, but not enough to hold 24 hrs worth. Does anyone have experience operating in this manner?

I would just get an add on furnace, but hooking it to existing furnace in my case would be almost as much work and expense as installing a boiler. The operation pattern of the add on is sort of what I want accomplish with a boiler. ie: adjust wood input according to heat load.
Make sense?


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## jebatty (Feb 8, 2020)

Bad LP said:


> My Tarm is a PITA starting from cold when the unit has sat idle for a week or two.


It does take some time on a cold start (boiler temp down to about room temperature) to get the Tarm up to temp to start providing hot water. Remember, depending on your Tarm, or other boiler, the fire has to heat up the metal, plus 55 gal of water and nearby piping for my Tarm, to operating temp for the supply circulator to start moving hot water.


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## maple1 (Feb 8, 2020)

I'm a bit under a half hour from sparking it up cold to 160° out.


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## maple1 (Feb 8, 2020)

I'll also add, there have been a few days when I've nursed the fire along so it makes it to bedtime before it goes out - if its early in a cold day and I need the heat. Makes for a little bit of efficiency hit. I try to put off lighting a long as possible.


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## salecker (Feb 8, 2020)

My Econoburn is too easy to start a fire so it's not an issue.
12 years and there has been no fires that haven't started.
My X wife had no issues in 11 years with the boiler,with me she had a buttload of issues i am sure she would have kept the boiler if she had a use for it.
This year i have a lady living in my basement and have a new girlfriend and neither of them have any problem starting the boiler if i am not around.
I have purosly tried to start the fire with minimal kindling and it still takes right off.


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## __dan (Feb 8, 2020)

Reading the board here for a year or so before I bought my boiler, single biggest piece of advice I picked up here, and the key to the success of my system, was the indication to get a Froling.

For cold restarts the Froling leaves a charcoal bed overnight. It shuts down at the end of burn based on something like excess O2 over 20% for x time. Most of the time you can just add fuel on the charcoal bed from overnight and if it's dry fuel, it will be gasifying rioght away, less than 90 seconds.

From there I have a direct boiler hot water supply tap to the distribution header and another to the (storage tank). Basement slab is slaved to the boiler firing and that's the heat battery for the house.

I never burn overnight but the house has a contiguous 2" ridgid foam board wrap under the siding and the thermal mass is inside the house. That was what had to happen. Very well insulated shell and the radiant slabs plus the Froling is very easy work on the Froling. If I just feed it as much as I want, the house is not over four cord / year, all heat and DHW.


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## andym (Feb 8, 2020)

Thanks for all the replies so far. I have learned A LOT by just reading many of the threads on this forum. What I have read here is the reason I'm considering the indoor boiler. I wish these (indoor) companies would advertise as much as the big OWB companies do. That is the reason most people (like me two weeks ago) have no clue about indoor gasifiers. Everyone I know knows what a Central Boiler is. A Garn or Froling is a saltwater fish caught near Madagascar or somewhere, right.....? 

Still waiting to hear from someone who runs a modulating boiler....
Or am I the only one who wants to do things differently?


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## peakbagger (Feb 8, 2020)

The reason you dont see folks running an indoor gasifier modulating is they would be throwing away much of the efficiency and low air emissions inherent in a non modulating operation. A gasifier is designed to run hot, charge up  storage and then shut off until the storage needs charging again. Newer units have some turn down capability but they still need to burn hot.


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## Bad LP (Feb 8, 2020)

andym said:


> Thanks for all the replies so far. I have learned A LOT by just reading many of the threads on this forum. What I have read here is the reason I'm considering the indoor boiler. I wish these (indoor) companies would advertise as much as the big OWB companies do. That is the reason most people (like me two weeks ago) have no clue about indoor gasifiers. Everyone I know knows what a Central Boiler is. A Garn or Froling is a saltwater fish caught near Madagascar or somewhere, right.....?
> 
> Still waiting to hear from someone who runs a modulating boiler....
> Or am I the only one who wants to do things differently?


IMO there are only a few companies out there that produce high quality indoor boilers. 
Peakbagger’s Post was spot on. Burn super hot into storage then remove what’s needed for the heating load. 
In short, the modulation occurs with your pump and mixing controls. Not at the boiler itself. 
It’s not like thinking of a hi tech gas boiler. My LP boiler is set up to be “dumb”. My radiant controls take care of all modulation and I don’t try modulating the few rooms that have HWBB. 
Chris @ Tarm is a good source and the guys at Varm are also straight shooters. I was impressed with the honesty of both operations. 
Until my wood boiler gives up I’ll run what I have but getting a high tech wood boiler will happen down the road at failure. 
None of this equipment is cheap. 

What do you expect your budget to be?


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## maple1 (Feb 8, 2020)

Forget about prioritizing modulation. Or maybe I should say, forget about trying to avoid having to light a new fire every day. It really isn't that bad, and not having to think about the fire or tending it for 20 hours every day more than makes up for the 'hassle' of fire lighting. Let alone the efficiency gains and less wood you'll be needing every year.


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## peakbagger (Feb 8, 2020)

This isnt new thinking. Masonry heaters formerly referred as "Russian Fireplaces" despite their Nordic origins, dispensed with the water and were designed for short high temperate burns. Instead of water being heated up the masonry heated up and slowly gave off heat to the house. They are massive and rarely would be retrofit to a house, the house is normally designed around the heater. 

Arguably the original super high efficient "stove" was actually far closer to a gasifier boiler with thermal storage. It was designed by a professor at University of Maine and was run hot as needed to heat up a big thermal storage tank.   At the time an installed system was quite expensive, several times more for an installed system than conventional wood stoves. A few companies, Dumont and Jetstream  tried to sell them but some shortcuts in the typical thermal storage attached to them doomed most of the installs. There is at least one Hearth.com member that has a Jetstream. Still they were at the time the most efficient and cleanest wood boilers built and still would give a run on efficiency and air emmisions to modern boilers.  I expect they would be competitive with a typical gasifer installation today  but they were ahead of their time.  The plans for the original design are available on the internet but I expect few folks would attempt to build one as it would be difficult to insure.

If someone wants an clean and efficient modulating wood boiler they are far better lookng at pellet boiler.  The state of the art for cord wood these days is installing heat emitters in the house to be able to heat the house at far lower temperature supply temperature than previously. By dropping the supply temp down to 85 or 90 degrees F compared to typical 140 to 160 F used for baseboard, the storage duration of storage tanks is efectively doubled. Add in low energy design and construction techniques and a well designed system can go days between burns even in cold weather. The low temperatrue emitters also mean that the wood can be supplemented with air to water heat pumps run off of net metered solar on days over 30 F.


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## andym (Feb 8, 2020)

Bad LP said:


> IMO there are only a few companies out there that produce high quality indoor boilers.
> Peakbagger’s Post was spot on. Burn super hot into storage then remove what’s needed for the heating load.
> In short, the modulation occurs with your pump and mixing controls. Not at the boiler itself.
> It’s not like thinking of a hi tech gas boiler. My LP boiler is set up to be “dumb”. My radiant controls take care of all modulation and I don’t try modulating the few rooms that have HWBB.
> ...


I'm not doubting your advice or questioning anyone's experience but why do some manufacturers market their boilers as able to modulate from 100% down to 30% or less? Vigas  is one. Am I wrong to believe their claims?

My budget is on the low side due to some other related projects. For the boiler only I would like to find something in the 2-5k range. That may not be realistic.


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## maple1 (Feb 8, 2020)

Some can modulate but I dont think that will prevent lighting a fire every day.

You will likely need a bigger budget unless you happen on a good used deal. Have you looked in the classified section?


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## Mike Fromme (Feb 9, 2020)

For 5k you might be able to get a new eko 25 and the parts needed to get it done. Assuming you already have a chimney to use and can do the install yourself. And no storage... a very basic install.

If you can accept large temp swings in the house it will work and be somewhat efficient. Just shut off the oil/propane boiler and load the gasser when you can and get the house as warm as possible until the next time you can load.

Just make sure you have dry wood. Cut split and stacked for over a year. Or don’t bother trying.


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## andym (Feb 9, 2020)

Mike Fromme said:


> For 5k you might be able to get a new eko 25 and the parts needed to get it done. Assuming you already have a chimney to use and can do the install yourself. And no storage... a very basic install.
> 
> If you can accept large temp swings in the house it will work and be somewhat efficient. Just shut off the oil/propane boiler and load the gasser when you can and get the house as warm as possible until the next time you can load.
> 
> Just make sure you have dry wood. Cut split and stacked for over a year. Or don’t bother trying.



I have been eyeing those Ekos as one option. Any suggestions on where to purchase?

A new ss chimney in a better location is one of those 'other projects'.

Im in the process of tracking down some propane tanks for pressurized storage.

I was planning to install myself, with lots of advice from the pros here.
The 2-5,000 was only for the boiler itself.

I already cut my wood a year ahead. I ordered a moisture meter yesterday, just to see what my current wood is.

Got to leave for church soon, it's my turn to preach this morning!


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## 3fordasho (Feb 9, 2020)

andym said:


> I have been eyeing those Ekos as one option. Any suggestions on where to purchase?
> 
> A new ss chimney in a better location is one of those 'other projects'.
> 
> ...



The US supplier for EKO is newhorizonstore.com.  Zenon also carries Attack which I would look at as well- I like the inducer draft set up on the Attack vs the forced draft set up on the EKO.   IMHO you will see less smoke out the loading door on reloads on a induced draft set up especially if you don't have a lot of chimney height.

As far as storage, call you local propane suppliers and ask if they have any scrap tanks, rusty on the outside, missing tags, etc.  I found 2 x500g tanks from my local coop for $200 each.  Only down side to scrap tanks is they will have to be cleaned really well on the inside.


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## Woodman1 (Feb 9, 2020)

Check the classifieds, I bought my system used and saved a ton of money.   Taxidermist had a eko 60 and 2 500 gallon tanks that he was selling pretty cheap that might still be available. Skimming through craigslist the other day there was a pretty clean looking  eko 60 for $900.00. There is no reason to spend big money on these systems


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## brenndatomu (Feb 9, 2020)

andym said:


> A new ss chimney in a better location is one of those 'other projects'


Supervent class A chimney is available at Menards and will hands down be the cheapest price you'll find on one (especially if you buy during a 11% off sale) I have put several of these up over the years for myself and family members and they work well.


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## JohnDolz (Feb 9, 2020)

andym said:


> Hi all. I'm new to the forum here, but have been casually (obsessively according to my sweet wife) reading up on these indoor gasifiers. Im 29 and have lifelong experience burning wood, but have just recently been made aware of a (not so) new way of doing it: the indoor boiler with storage! I'm almost convinced. I was planning to install an OWB this summer until I realized:
> #1 most used units were nearly worn out and cheap or nearly new and costly.
> #2 new units (even non EPA which can still be bought) were very expensive
> #3 all are rather inefficient.
> ...


I would agree with the others here, starting a fire will be a non-issue for you (with the right boiler and dry wood). Regarding what boiler to get, I suggest you take a step back and really look at the total cost of this project ($'s + effort). Based on my experience you will deeply regret making the boiler decision solely on cost rather than what you would like out of the system - especially if you are giving thought to low temp emitters, leveraging outdoor reset, etc. I would 2nd the person that advised you to contact Chris at Tarm. They always have some amazing deals kicking around and they carry a line of boilers (Effecta) that is at a lower price point than the Froling but has amazingly functionality - especially if you are looking for a plug and play that a significant other can handle if you are away.


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## andym (Feb 10, 2020)

JohnDolz:
Good advice from everyone. Now i need to decide if I want to take it.  how do I contact this Chris?

How do the Effecta boilers compare with the Ekos?

Brenndatomu:
 You mean there are options other than Menards?


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## JohnDolz (Feb 10, 2020)

andym said:


> JohnDolz:
> Good advice from everyone. Now i need to decide if I want to take it.  how do I contact this Chris?
> 
> How do the Effecta boilers compare with the Ekos?
> ...


Chris works for Tarm Biomass (a huge sponsor of this site), just reach out to Tarm. I can tell you lots about the Effecta but don't know anything about Ekos.


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## andym (Feb 10, 2020)

JohnDolz said:


> Chris works for Tarm Biomass (a huge sponsor of this site), just reach out to Tarm. I can tell you lots about the Effecta but don't know anything about Ekos.



Thats what I thought, thanks! I really need to sit down and figure my heat loads etc. I'm thinking I'll need a 30 to 40kw unit.


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## maple1 (Feb 10, 2020)

andym said:


> How do the Effecta boilers compare with the Ekos?



There are some basic design differences in boilers you should maybe be aware of when shopping.

One that pertains to those particular two is the difference between forced draft, and induced draft. Forced (Eko) blows combustion air in. Induced (Effecta) sucks combustion air in. Which can lead to forced draft units being more prone to smoke spillage. And making things like door gaskets even more important as a service/maintenance item. Mine is natural draft. Which is sort of induced since the chimney sucks air in. It doesn't even have any door gaskets to worry about. Personally, I would not want a forced draft boiler in my house.

And don't forget to research how hard or easy they are to clean. Stuff like that is what you will live with long after the purchase price fades away. I might be a bit biased but Varms are the easiest to clean on the market. Check out Smokeless Heat ad banner for more info on those.  But there are a few good choices out there.


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## andym (Feb 10, 2020)

maple1 said:


> There are some basic design differences in boilers you should maybe be aware of when shopping.
> 
> One that pertains to those particular two is the difference between forced draft, and induced draft. Forced (Eko) blows combustion air in. Induced (Effecta) sucks combustion air in. Which can lead to forced draft units being more prone to smoke spillage. And making things like door gaskets even more important as a service/maintenance item. Mine is natural draft. Which is sort of induced since the chimney sucks air in. It doesn't even have any door gaskets to worry about. Personally, I would not want a forced draft boiler in my house.
> 
> And don't forget to research how hard or easy they are to clean. Stuff like that is what you will live with long after the purchase price fades away. I might be a bit biased but Varms are the easiest to clean on the market. Check out Smokeless Heat ad banner for more info on those.  But there are a few good choices out there.



Thanks for the tip! One question tho: induced draft means your drawing smoke through a fan right? Isn't that going to mean more maintenance? Or are these units clean enough that is not an issue?


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## Woodman1 (Feb 10, 2020)

Don't even consider putting a eko inside your house. The smoke spillage is an issue. No big deal in a outbuilding, grounds for divorce inside a house.


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## Bad LP (Feb 10, 2020)

Varm I believe is the easiest boiler to clean by far than any of the others.  It’s what attracted me to them so I called and they were great to talk to and as I said honest. 
Tarm was also in my short list and when my boiler showed up for sale I jumped on it. 
I have no regrets but also realize if it sprung a leak next weekend I’d isolate the boiler from the rest of the system, cut it loose and slide in a new technology unit.


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## Bad LP (Feb 10, 2020)

Woodman1 said:


> Don't even consider putting a eko inside your house. The smoke spillage is an issue. No big deal in a outbuilding, grounds for divorce inside a house.


I know there are a lot of EKO lovers but I was warned not to do it so I didn’t.


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## Woodman1 (Feb 10, 2020)

Oh I love my eko. That said I would hate it in my house


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## andym (Feb 10, 2020)

Woodman1 said:


> Oh I love my eko. That said I would hate it in my house



Adding a boiler room to my shop would be a tempting option. It would provide an easy way to heat my shop. A big advantage of putting the boiler in the house is saving the cost of the underground pipe. $$ plus not ripping up the yard.

I think I'll research some more on the boilers you all recommended. That Attack DPX looks like it might work. 

Another question: some boilers have 1-1/2" outputs, while another (same btu output) has 2". Is that the size that needs to be plumbed to storage? Or can the 2" be reduced?


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## Fred61 (Feb 10, 2020)

Woodman1 said:


> Don't even consider putting a eko inside your house. The smoke spillage is an issue. No big deal in a outbuilding, grounds for divorce inside a house.





Bad LP said:


> I know there are a lot of EKO lovers but I was warned not to do it so I didn’t.





Woodman1 said:


> Oh I love my eko. That said I would hate it in my house



Show me the smoke


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## 3fordasho (Feb 10, 2020)

andym said:


> .
> 
> I think I'll research some more on the boilers you all recommended. That Attack DPX looks like it might work.
> 
> Another question: some boilers have 1-1/2" outputs, while another (same btu output) has 2". Is that the size that needs to be plumbed to storage? Or can the 2" be reduced?



I have a DPXL45 - went with 2" black pipe about a foot or two from the boiler connections and then reduced to 1.25" copper.  No issues but I would not go smaller than 1.25"


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## andym (Feb 10, 2020)

3fordasho said:


> I have a DPXL45 - went with 2" black pipe about a foot or two from the boiler connections and then reduced to 1.25" copper.  No issues but I would not go smaller than 1.25"


Thats good to know, much easier and cheaper. I suppose that's a question for the dealer.
How do you like your boiler?


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## JohnDolz (Feb 10, 2020)

andym said:


> Thats good to know, much easier and cheaper. I suppose that's a question for the dealer.
> How do you like your boiler?


The size of the pipes moving water is extremely important for a gasifier boiler because this is how heat is removed from the boiler (remember the idea is to burn as hot and efficient as possible and move to into storage). If the piping does not allow for heat to be transferred fast enough it will result in the boiler overheating, burning inefficient, etc. I am sure an engineer can help you determine what would work or not, otherwise if you guess wrong you got a problem. I have some experience here because I went from a 35kw (requiring 1.25" piping) to a 60kw (requiring 1.5" piping). I changed whatever piping could be reached but did end up with some 1.25" as the last part of the run (to/fro storage) - luckily it worked. Figured if I could at least get all the 90's to spec size that I would be OK.


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## 3fordasho (Feb 10, 2020)

andym said:


> Thats good to know, much easier and cheaper. I suppose that's a question for the dealer.
> How do you like your boiler?



This is my first heating season with it and no complaints. In fact I am installing a 2nd for my shop.  I looked at all the common ones here, Effecta, Froling, Varm, Biomass, EKO, and a few others, for me the Attack had the right set of features, loading capacity, pricing and even flue exit to match my particular install and heating needs.   Of these only the first three meet epa ratings for 2020, a requirement I am not concerned with on my installs.
My conclusions are the Froling and Effecta have the most advanced controls and are very nice boilers.  Varms are right up there and are the most friendly for cleaning.   The Varms that were competitive price wise with my Attack have half the loading box size meaning more reloads during a batch burn.   EKO is the best value $$ wise but some have smoke issues on reload if they are not connected to a good drafting chimney.   My attack would be fine in a basement install but I have mine installed in a 24x48' outbuilding about 90' from the house so it heats that building and my 3400sq ft house.


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## ExxWhy (Feb 10, 2020)

I installed a Biomass combo 40 boiler with 500 gals of storage last fall in my basement.  (walkout to garage, not the kind of thing to haul down the steps!)  It's been revolutionary in how effectively and evenly it heats the house.  I typically burn in it for 5-7 hours in the afternoon/evening and it's good to go until the next day with the storage.  The storage is a KEY piece of the puzzle!  3000 sq ft house with so-so insulation.  On the few real cold days we've had, I burned some in the morning too.  The house never gets cold.  As others have said, the storage and house thermostats do the modulating.  Super easy to light.  I don't even use kindling, just the leftover charcoal from yesterday with some wood laid on top and 30 seconds with the propane torch.  I have found it runs best when I stir it every hour or so depending on the load of wood, not quite set and forget for 8 hours.  The efficiency is fantastic, we are burning 1/3 of the wood we used to with the old antique we had previously.  (from the 70's!)  There is 5 minutes of ash cleaning daily before you start the fire.  I have also cleaned behind a cover in the rear bottom twice this season, about a 30 minute job.  I did remove the fan to inspect and it was clean in there.  We are very very happy with it!


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## Bad LP (Feb 10, 2020)

ExxWhy said:


> I installed a Biomass combo 40 boiler with 500 gals of storage last fall in my basement.  (walkout to garage, not the kind of thing to haul down the steps!)  It's been revolutionary in how effectively and evenly it heats the house.  I typically burn in it for 5-7 hours in the afternoon/evening and it's good to go until the next day with the storage.  The storage is a KEY piece of the puzzle!  3000 sq ft house with so-so insulation.  On the few real cold days we've had, I burned some in the morning too.  The house never gets cold.  As others have said, the storage and house thermostats do the modulating.  Super easy to light.  I don't even use kindling, just the leftover charcoal from yesterday with some wood laid on top and 30 seconds with the propane torch.  I have found it runs best when I stir it every hour or so depending on the load of wood, not quite set and forget for 8 hours.  The efficiency is fantastic, we are burning 1/3 of the wood we used to with the old antique we had previously.  (from the 70's!)  There is 5 minutes of ash cleaning daily before you start the fire.  I have also cleaned behind a cover in the rear bottom twice this season, about a 30 minute job.  I did remove the fan to inspect and it was clean in there.  We are very very happy with it!


Great point on stirring. I can place the wood in the boiler neater than any good looking stack but bridging always occurs. I don’t care what size wood is being used or any combo thereof. 
Break the pile down and look out!!


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## andym (Feb 10, 2020)

3fordasho said:


> This is my first heating season with it and no complaints. In fact I am installing a 2nd for my shop.  I looked at all the common ones here, Effecta, Froling, Varm, Biomass, EKO, and a few others, for me the Attack had the right set of features, loading capacity, pricing and even flue exit to match my particular install and heating needs.   Of these only the first three meet epa ratings for 2020, a requirement I am not concerned with on my installs.



Does that mean the others can not be purchased for residential use?


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## 3fordasho (Feb 10, 2020)

andym said:


> Does that mean the others can not be purchased for residential use?



I can not advise on your local regulatory situation or directly answer your question with any confidence.   In my case I am in a rural location and I need binoculars to see my nearest neighbor and a neighbor is likely to be the culprit in a complaint situation.  I'm in central boiler smoke dragon country and a clean burning gasifier is not on anybody's radar.   Insurance can be another issue but my Attack came with a ul/csa sticker that newhorizon takes care of getting.  Generally my ins. company was happy that I was moving the main wood burning appliance out of the basement (wood furnace) and installing the boiler in a lower value out building.  I did notice the EKO's are listed as commercial use only, but the Attacks are not.  Also the new 2020 EPA regs take effect in May or June IIRC.


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## andym (Feb 11, 2020)

3fordasho said:


> I can not advise on your local regulatory situation or directly answer your question with any confidence.   In my case I am in a rural location and I need binoculars to see my nearest neighbor and a neighbor is likely to be the culprit in a complaint situation.  I'm in central boiler smoke dragon country and a clean burning gasifier is not on anybody's radar.   Insurance can be another issue but my Attack came with a ul/csa sticker that newhorizon takes care of getting.  Generally my ins. company was happy that I was moving the main wood burning appliance out of the basement (wood furnace) and installing the boiler in a lower value out building.  I did notice the EKO's are listed as commercial use only, but the Attacks are not.  Also the new 2020 EPA regs take effect in May or June IIRC.


Im in pretty much the same kind of setting, except with lots more neighbors. 

My insurance will be a non issue.

Sounds like dealers will be running good sales in April then?

I love driving through Duluth on my way to visit family in Ontario. I think I could handle living in the land of 10,000 lakes.


----------



## andym (Feb 11, 2020)

I talked with Chris at tarm today. he is very helpful and definitely knows his stuff. I'm afraid the price of the Effecta boiler is a bit more than I'm willing to pay this year. I think it would be an excellent boiler however. In my comparisons between that and the Attack DPX the 25 inch log that the attack will handle is something that really appeals to me. The price is another thing: the attack is on sale right now for less than 5K. Compared to 8k+ for the Effecta. I do realize the Effecta has a lambda sensor.

Chris told me that it is possible to allow the boiler to do the modulating, but it is just not ideal. The boiler will last longer by doing batch burns. A lambda sensor is a huge advantage if you plan to modulate. However the Effecta only modulates to around 60% Chris is sending me more info around and wants to talk again before I make a decision.

I'm starting to favor the whole idea of batch burning. I will seriously miss sitting and watching the flames dance inside the glass door. I would pay extra for that feature. 

Chris explained that idling creates condensation (creosote) inside the boiler as well as the chimney. Allowing the boiler to idle a lot will considerably shorten the life of the boiler. It's not just about efficiency or visible smoke. That is a very important point I had not thought of.

Chris and ??(name unknown) at Newhorizonstore both agreed that 1 1/4 or 1 1/2 pipe is plenty to handle the btu load of these boilers. 1 inch could be used but the gpm would have to be increased to a less than ideal rate.


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## JohnDolz (Feb 11, 2020)

andym said:


> I talked with Chris at tarm today. he is very helpful and definitely knows his stuff. I'm afraid the price of the Effecta boiler is a bit more than I'm willing to pay this year. I think it would be an excellent boiler however. In my comparisons between that and the Attack DPX the 25 inch log that the attack will handle is something that really appeals to me. The price is another thing: the attack is on sale right now for less than 5K. Compared to 8k+ for the Effecta. I do realize the Effecta has a lambda sensor.
> 
> Chris told me that it is possible to allow the boiler to do the modulating, but it is just not ideal. The boiler will last longer by doing batch burns. A lambda sensor is a huge advantage if you plan to modulate. However the Effecta only modulates to around 60% Chris is sending me more info around and wants to talk again before I make a decision.
> 
> ...


Appreciate the update. The other thing to consider with the cost delta, along with the lambda sensor are the controls that come built in with the boiler and if you ever think you are going to use them. Think about things like Outdoor reset, would sending different water temps to different zones be beneficial, would you want to heat DHW, etc.  As it turns out, I use almost all of the features - not sure if it is because I need them or because they are there. Regardless, if you pursue these types of controls later you will spend a lot more for them.  I have no skin in the game as to what boiler you purchase, just my usual advise to someone looking into anything seriously, spend 50% more than you can afford and you will never regret growing into it. You will always regret growing out of something.


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## andym (Feb 11, 2020)

JohnDolz said:


> Appreciate the update. The other thing to consider with the cost delta, along with the lambda sensor are the controls that come built in with the boiler and if you ever think you are going to use them. Think about things like Outdoor reset, would sending different water temps to different zones be beneficial, would you want to heat DHW, etc.  As it turns out, I use almost all of the features - not sure if it is because I need them or because they are there. Regardless, if you pursue these types of controls later you will spend a lot more for them.  I have no skin in the game as to what boiler you purchase, just my usual advise to someone looking into anything seriously, spend 50% more than you can afford and you will never regret growing into it. You will always regret growing out of something.



What boiler do you have again? 

The Attack is already more than my initial (and ignorant) budget! What actually got me looking this direction was the $2-3,000 Uni boilers from MbTek. I've pretty much ruled them out, but that's another subject.....

I'm a fairly low tech kinda guy. I'm fairly certain any of the boilers I've looked at will have what I need, but I will examine the options more closely as you suggest.

Will definitely be heating DHW in some way.


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## JohnDolz (Feb 11, 2020)

I have an Effecta and am also a very low tech guy. Sadly the person I purchased my boiler from passed away while I was in the middle of upgrading to a larger boiler, he was supposed to handle everything. This left a hairdresser in Michigan with my boiler, me in Connecticut and a manufacturer in Sweden. Luckily the manufacturer was great (this was prior to Tarm carrying the line) and I learned a lot. Assuming you are like everyone else here, this will become more of a hobby/lifestyle and you will keep pushing for more.......just a guess.


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## maple1 (Feb 11, 2020)

About the piping. I would likely stick with whatever the boiler tappings are, between boiler & storage. In my case, that is 1-1/4". You should have storage as close as you can get it to the boiler, as directly connected as you can get it, and if possible storage as high as conveniently possible. That is all to help in convection flow should the power go out while your burning. (But don't rely solely on that for that - build in other contingencies also). And if you wanted to optimize that as much as possible, you could up the size of the piping. It actually likely isn't  a bad idea anyway, the cost of bigger black iron between boiler & storage will be negligible when compared to the rest of your costs.


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## andym (Feb 11, 2020)

maple1 said:


> About the piping. I would likely stick with whatever the boiler tappings are, between boiler & storage. In my case, that is 1-1/4". You should have storage as close as you can get it to the boiler, as directly connected as you can get it, and if possible storage as high as conveniently possible. That is all to help in convection flow should the power go out while your burning. (But don't rely solely on that for that - build in other contingencies also). And if you wanted to optimize that as much as possible, you could up the size of the piping. It actually likely isn't  a bad idea anyway, the cost of bigger black iron between boiler & storage will be negligible when compared to the rest of your costs.


Agreed. Does the return to the boiler have to remain close to the floor? In other words can I run both lines across the ceiling to the other side of the room? All the diagrams make it appear like that's how it's always done.


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## andym (Feb 11, 2020)

JohnDolz said:


> I have an Effecta and am also a very low tech guy. Sadly the person I purchased my boiler from passed away while I was in the middle of upgrading to a larger boiler, he was supposed to handle everything. This left a hairdresser in Michigan with my boiler, me in Connecticut and a manufacturer in Sweden. Luckily the manufacturer was great (this was prior to Tarm carrying the line) and I learned a lot. Assuming you are like everyone else here, this will become more of a hobby/lifestyle and you will keep pushing for more.......just a guess.


It's already a lifestyle for me. It's the only reason I enjoy winter. Few things are better than running a chainsaw on a cold clear winter day. I pity the guys who sit inside grumbling about the cold and watching the gas meter spin.


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## peakbagger (Feb 11, 2020)

As a counterpoint, I got a used 15 to 20 year old boiler for free if I could get it out of the basement and out of the prior owners yard. These deals come up on occasion you just need to keep an eye out and recognize a quality unit that still has some life left on it  and have the rigging and truck to move it.  It took us 6 hours to disconnect it, salvage all the piping, rig it out of the basement and drop it back in my basement. Even though its getting to be a 40 year old boiler, it was well built. I redid the controls from scratch using relay logic and bought an American Solar Technics unpressurized tank so my money is in my storage tank and all the piping associated with it.  I ike the AST design as it takes up less room since its square and could be installed by myself and moved in the future if needed. The system is not state of the art but I would guess I get 90% of the benefits of a new boiler with all the fancy controls. I batch burn and at full bore its not that hard to get a boiler to burn clean. I do end up with higher stack temp as the heat exchanger is far more open than modern designs. The tough part is part load combustion and I don't need to worry about it. I know it burns clean as I inspect my interior chimney every year and have only swept it 3 times in 30 years (about 15 years on the boiler) mostly out of guilt as it didn't really need it. (I am not advocating that everyone can avoid cleaning a chimney but in my case I can)

If I dont need the heat I just don't fire it as often.  The AST design is made out of thick high R value foam so it doesn't loose much heat over two or three days. The only downside with my boiler is its coal/wood design with a refractory pit and a bottom grate.  The net result is a firebox that is not huge and requires a bit of planning on loading. I tend to split my rounds a bit smaller. I have 1" copper piping for my coil and piping from the boiler to and from the coil. It does fine with standard Taco circulator.  I have NOT bought oil for 5 plus years and my only backup is 12,000 btu cold source minisplit for shoulder seasons.

Someday when the Burham start leaking and is unrepairable I will start looking for replacement. Not everyone loves burning wood and some just age out, so the deals pop up on occasion and I hope to get one. If one pops up early I may just get it and store it.


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## Woodman1 (Feb 11, 2020)

andym said:


> Agreed. Does the return to the boiler have to remain close to the floor? In other words can I run both lines across the ceiling to the other side of the room? All the diagrams make it appear like that's how it's always done.



That sounds like a recipe for an air trap. When I plumbed mine I tried to make it so simplicity, gravity, and convection were my friend


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## Woodman1 (Feb 11, 2020)

It looks like Hicksville is only a couple of hours away from me.  It might be worth your time to look at a few systems in operation. It might help with your decisions.


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## andym (Feb 11, 2020)

Woodman1 said:


> It looks like Hicksville is only a couple of hours away from me.  It might be worth your time to look at a few systems in operation. It might help with your decisions.


I may take you up on that at some point. Most of the unknowns at this point are in the hydronic part of it. Mine should be pretty simple but I'm still trying to understand all necessary components. 

What kind of boiler do you have?
Is your storage pressurized?

I noticed someone on one of these forums also from NW Ohio.


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## Bad LP (Feb 11, 2020)

Woodman1 said:


> That sounds like a recipe for an air trap. When I plumbed mine I tried to make it so simplicity, gravity, and convection were my friend


No problem with air getting trapped on mine. 2 supplies and 2 returns across the ceiling. Air vents on the top of both tanks. Air vent on the top of the supply to tank on boiler.


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## andym (Feb 11, 2020)

Bad LP said:


> No problem with air getting trapped on mine. 2 supplies and 2 returns across the ceiling. Air vents on the top of both tanks. Air vent on the top of the supply to tank on boiler.


Wouldn't it make a difference if it is pressurized storage? How could air get trapped except when filling the system?


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## Bad LP (Feb 11, 2020)

andym said:


> Wouldn't it make a difference if it is pressurized storage? How could air get trapped except when filling the system?


I was always told to put as many vents in the highest fittings when building it. Thankfully my boiler guy feels the same way. He goes one step further and puts a ball valve just below it for the simplest of changes if needed. I'm sure I could close the valves now with out having any issues. 
When we started the system I was shocked at the amount of air that bleed off and I still had to force out some trapped air.


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## andym (Feb 11, 2020)

Bad LP said:


> I was always told to put as many vents in the highest fittings when building it. Thankfully my boiler guy feels the same way. He goes one step further and puts a ball valve just below it for the simplest of changes if needed. I'm sure I could close the valves now with out having any issues.
> When we started the system I was shocked at the amount of air that bleed off and I still had to force out some trapped air.


Good to know. Depending on where I locate the storage tank(s) I may need to route them overhead.


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## maple1 (Feb 11, 2020)

andym said:


> Agreed. Does the return to the boiler have to remain close to the floor? In other words can I run both lines across the ceiling to the other side of the room? All the diagrams make it appear like that's how it's always done.



I would not run returns high. I would keep them low. Even better if they can drop some between bottom of storage and boiler return. That is from a convective point of view. These things can get real hot in a hurry if burning when the power goes out, that is one area I like lots of redundancy. Just my thoughts. With my boiler and system.


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## Woodman1 (Feb 11, 2020)

andym said:


> I may take you up on that at some point. Most of the unknowns at this point are in the hydronic part of it. Mine should be pretty simple but I'm still trying to understand all necessary components.
> 
> What kind of boiler do you have?
> Is your storage pressurized?
> ...



Eko 60 with 1000 gallons pressurized storage sitting next to boiler in dedicated boiler/wood shed


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## Fred61 (Feb 11, 2020)

andym said:


> I love driving through Duluth on my way to visit family in Ontario. I think I could handle living in the land of 10,000 lakes



AND ONE WALLEYE


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## andym (Feb 11, 2020)

Fred61 said:


> AND ONE WALLEYE


Ontario has more than enough to compensate!


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## andym (Feb 11, 2020)

Woodman1 said:


> Eko 60 with 1000 gallons pressurized storage sitting next to boiler in dedicated boiler/wood shed


Where are you located?


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## Woodman1 (Feb 11, 2020)

Near South Haven


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## hobbyheater (Feb 11, 2020)

peakbagger said:


> . A few companies, Dumont and Jetstream  tried to sell them but some shortcuts in the typical thermal storage attached to them doomed most of the installs. There is at least one Hearth.com member that has a Jetstream. Still they were at the time the most efficient and cleanest wood boilers built and still would give a run on efficiency and air emmisions to modern boilers.  I expect they would be competitive with a typical gasifer installation today



Yes I'm one of the ones with a Jetstream had three of them at one time but sold the third and installed the new one in2014. When they arrived on the scene in the early 80,s just had to have one. I remember only to well what it was like to having a smoldering airtight and the chimney fires that went with them . When the refractory is cured properly and a generous amount of storage ( 1,045 Imperial gallons) they function very well !


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## andym (Feb 11, 2020)

Woodman1 said:


> Near South Haven


Id probably rather find someone a little closer, but I'll keep it in mind. Let me know when the fish are biting!


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## Bad LP (Feb 11, 2020)

maple1 said:


> I would not run returns high. I would keep them low. Even better if they can drop some between bottom of storage and boiler return. That is from a convective point of view. These things can get real hot in a hurry if burning when the power goes out, that is one area I like lots of redundancy. Just my thoughts. With my boiler and system.


I would be tripping over the piping. Chimney in center of house (planned from the start of design) and the tanks had no choice on location. 
Big powerless dump zone on floor joists but house has auto start generator that has both boilers wired into it.


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## Highbeam (Feb 11, 2020)

andym said:


> It's already a lifestyle for me. It's the only reason I enjoy winter. Few things are better than running a chainsaw on a cold clear winter day. I pity the guys who sit inside grumbling about the cold and watching the gas meter spin.



Don’t move to my area then! All winter/spring/fall is mud season, we have to process wood in the summers which in this area are very nice. 9 month burn season.


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## maple1 (Feb 12, 2020)

Bad LP said:


> I would be tripping over the piping. Chimney in center of house (planned from the start of design) and the tanks had no choice on location.
> Big powerless dump zone on floor joists but house has auto start generator that has both boilers wired into it.



Auto start gennie can be a big plus.

We had a bad weather day Monday. I suddenly decided in the morning I should do a burn early in case we lost power later. I got it going good and just loaded it up - when the power went out. Plugged the boiler circ into the UPS, but the UPS wouldn't power up without power going into it. First time I experienced that. I have had to hit the power button on it a couple times before, when the power was out, to get it to kick in. But it wouldn't this time. I should have got it up & going before I lit up & still had power, but I was in a hurry to make heat. Opened all my zones but the heat climbed in the boiler real quick - takes a little while for natural flow to get itself going, and storage wasn't cold with an early burn start. By the time I drug the gennie out & got it fired up to only have to plug the UPS into it to get it to send power out, the boiler & piping were starting to make ugly noises. Even after shutting down the air intake. That was my first & hopefully only episode like that. Virtually all other gassing boilers would have the added safety of the combustion fan shutting down when power goes away, but this thing just keeps on chugging full blast until the fuel gets used up. Anytime I have to leave the house with a fire going, or burn with ugly weather outside, I bring the UPS on line. Didn't bother doing that first, this time.


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## Woodman1 (Feb 12, 2020)

andym said:


> Id probably rather find someone a little closer, but I'll keep it in mind. Let me know when the fish are biting!



Hopefully you can find one close to look at. Even though these are relatively simple systems, there are many little details that can make the difference between being very happy and being very frustrated.


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## ExxWhy (Feb 12, 2020)

You can feel free to look at mine any time, but I live about 3 hours away.

My piping goes up across the ceiling and back down to the tank.  Without crawling inside the pipe to be sure, I don't think there is any way air can get trapped in there with 12 GPM flowing through an 1 1/4 pipe.  I assume it's like a garden hose, turn the water on and it pushes the air right out.  

Just to be clear andym, your house system is a hydronic system with baseboard heaters etc ? 

Agree on the lifestyle concept.  Wife and I were out splitting firewood for winter of 2024 yesterday.


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## 3fordasho (Feb 12, 2020)

maple1 said:


> Auto start gennie can be a big plus.
> 
> We had a bad weather day Monday. I suddenly decided in the morning I should do a burn early in case we lost power later. I got it going good and just loaded it up - when the power went out. Plugged the boiler circ into the UPS, but the UPS wouldn't power up without power going into it. First time I experienced that. I have had to hit the power button on it a couple times before, when the power was out, to get it to kick in. But it wouldn't this time. I should have got it up & going before I lit up & still had power, but I was in a hurry to make heat. Opened all my zones but the heat climbed in the boiler real quick - takes a little while for natural flow to get itself going, and storage wasn't cold with an early burn start. By the time I drug the gennie out & got it fired up to only have to plug the UPS into it to get it to send power out, the boiler & piping were starting to make ugly noises. Even after shutting down the air intake. That was my first & hopefully only episode like that. Virtually all other gassing boilers would have the added safety of the combustion fan shutting down when power goes away, but this thing just keeps on chugging full blast until the fuel gets used up. Anytime I have to leave the house with a fire going, or burn with ugly weather outside, I bring the UPS on line. Didn't bother doing that first, this time.



My power failure boiler protection consists of an 1000W pure sine inverter with built in charger/transfer switch and a group 27 marine battery.  It provides seamless transfer from line power to battery power in the event of power failure and back when line power comes up again and then will automatically recharge the battery.  More than enough capacity to run the boiler and circulator for a burn cycle or two.  Yes not a solution for a several day power outage but great for boiler protection for the power failure that happens during a burn cycle.  It is the blue box mounted on the wall to the right of the boiler.    Inverter/transfer switch/charger combo at zoro.com  - less than $300, battery ~$100

 The other boiler protection concern would be the failure of the circulator itself during a burn - my solution is to use the European solution that we seldom use in the US, the boiler overheat connections provided in nearly all European manufactured  boilers.  That plumbed through a Watts STS20 thermostatic valve and connected to domestic cold water will run cold water through a loop internal to the boiler for protection during an over heat situation.   (note I don't have it installed yet in this pic).  IMO (Assuming domestic cold water is available) this is much simpler and compact than running a bunch of tube and fin above the boiler somewhere to provide a gravity overheat loop and not to mention powering a Normally open valve all the time to keep the valve closed in normal operation.   I found the Watts STS20 valve for ~80 shipped from an ebay seller in Germany, they are available for a bit more from US suppliers.  The rest is just cold water piping and a drain to out the back of my boiler building.

Different solution that works for me - I didn't  want a bunch of tube and fin blocking the view of the TV


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## TCaldwell (Feb 12, 2020)

Doubt a garn style boiler could overheat on a power outage! If power goes out, unplug motor cord from receptacle on control box, temporarily plug into generator to finish burn.


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## maple1 (Feb 12, 2020)

3fordasho said:


> My power failure boiler protection consists of an 1000W pure sine inverter with built in charger/transfer switch and a group 27 marine battery.  It provides seamless transfer from line power to battery power in the event of power failure and back when line power comes up again and then will automatically recharge the battery.  More than enough capacity to run the boiler and circulator for a burn cycle or two.  Yes not a solution for a several day power outage but great for boiler protection for the power failure that happens during a burn cycle.  It is the blue box mounted on the wall to the right of the boiler.    Inverter/transfer switch/charger combo at zoro.com  - less than $300, battery ~$100
> 
> The other boiler protection concern would be the failure of the circulator itself during a burn - my solution is to use the European solution that we seldom use in the US, the boiler overheat connections provided in nearly all European manufactured  boilers.  That plumbed through a Watts STS20 thermostatic valve and connected to domestic cold water will run cold water through a loop internal to the boiler for protection during an over heat situation.   (note I don't have it installed yet in this pic).  IMO (Assuming domestic cold water is available) this is much simpler and compact than running a bunch of tube and fin above the boiler somewhere to provide a gravity overheat loop and not to mention powering a Normally open valve all the time to keep the valve closed in normal operation.   I found the Watts STS20 valve for ~80 shipped from an ebay seller in Germany, they are available for a bit more from US suppliers.  The rest is just cold water piping and a drain to out the back of my boiler building.
> 
> ...



Yes I thought I had myself covered with the UPS, and it has done its job lots of times the past few years. But this is the first time I couldn't get it to switch on when I needed it. It seems to need hooked to power to switch. If it is plugged into power & switched on, then the power goes out, it is all hunky dorey. But if it is not switched on, and the power goes out, then you try to switch it on - well, yesterday it wouldn't. Not sure yet what I will do when the batteries in it need replacing, that cost will be pretty large. (It's an APC SmartUPS 2200va - oldie but goodie).

I also have those Euro hookups on my boiler, but never hooked them up. I would need to find a drain to run to, and in an outage my water pump would be dead also. So didn't bother. Different solutions fit different situations. And the more you can install/set up, the better in this case - this is the one aspect that redundancy should be standard.


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## brenndatomu (Feb 12, 2020)

Sounds like your batteries need replaced now...


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## Bad LP (Feb 12, 2020)

maple1 said:


> Auto start gennie can be a big plus.
> 
> We had a bad weather day Monday. I suddenly decided in the morning I should do a burn early in case we lost power later. I got it going good and just loaded it up - when the power went out. Plugged the boiler circ into the UPS, but the UPS wouldn't power up without power going into it. First time I experienced that. I have had to hit the power button on it a couple times before, when the power was out, to get it to kick in. But it wouldn't this time. I should have got it up & going before I lit up & still had power, but I was in a hurry to make heat. Opened all my zones but the heat climbed in the boiler real quick - takes a little while for natural flow to get itself going, and storage wasn't cold with an early burn start. By the time I drug the gennie out & got it fired up to only have to plug the UPS into it to get it to send power out, the boiler & piping were starting to make ugly noises. Even after shutting down the air intake. That was my first & hopefully only episode like that. Virtually all other gassing boilers would have the added safety of the combustion fan shutting down when power goes away, but this thing just keeps on chugging full blast until the fuel gets used up. Anytime I have to leave the house with a fire going, or burn with ugly weather outside, I bring the UPS on line. Didn't bother doing that first, this time.


Sounds like a little pucker factor. LOL


----------



## andym (Feb 12, 2020)

3fordasho said:


> My power failure boiler protection consists of an 1000W pure sine inverter with built in charger/transfer switch and a group 27 marine battery.  It provides seamless transfer from line power to battery power in the event of power failure and back when line power comes up again and then will automatically recharge the battery.  More than enough capacity to run the boiler and circulator for a burn cycle or two.  Yes not a solution for a several day power outage but great for boiler protection for the power failure that happens during a burn cycle.  It is the blue box mounted on the wall to the right of the boiler.    Inverter/transfer switch/charger combo at zoro.com  - less than $300, battery ~$100
> 
> The other boiler protection concern would be the failure of the circulator itself during a burn - my solution is to use the European solution that we seldom use in the US, the boiler overheat connections provided in nearly all European manufactured  boilers.  That plumbed through a Watts STS20 thermostatic valve and connected to domestic cold water will run cold water through a loop internal to the boiler for protection during an over heat situation.   (note I don't have it installed yet in this pic).  IMO (Assuming domestic cold water is available) this is much simpler and compact than running a bunch of tube and fin above the boiler somewhere to provide a gravity overheat loop and not to mention powering a Normally open valve all the time to keep the valve closed in normal operation.   I found the Watts STS20 valve for ~80 shipped from an ebay seller in Germany, they are available for a bit more from US suppliers.  The rest is just cold water piping and a drain to out the back of my boiler building.
> 
> ...


I saw that option somewhere else for overheat protection, and really liked it. Only real downside is that the heat goes down the drain.


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## andym (Feb 12, 2020)

ExxWhy said:


> You can feel free to look at mine any time, but I live about 3 hours away.
> 
> My piping goes up across the ceiling and back down to the tank.  Without crawling inside the pipe to be sure, I don't think there is any way air can get trapped in there with 12 GPM flowing through an 1 1/4 pipe.  I assume it's like a garden hose, turn the water on and it pushes the air right out.
> 
> ...


I travel around more in ohio than michigan. Where are you located?

My house wil be heated with the central furnace. I have the option of installing some radiant on the main level, but that's definitely going to wait.


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## andym (Feb 12, 2020)

Woodman1 said:


> Near South Haven


I did a lot of thinking today about how to fit everything in my basement....I've pretty much decided to add a boiler room to my shop. There is a whole list of good reasons for this:
1: shop will be somewhat heated simply from 'waste' heat.
2: I can easily have room for 1,000 gallons of pressurized storage vs 500 max in basement.
3: heavy items can be set in place with tractor! Whew!
4: boiler to storage plumbing will be easier, cheaper, and more redundant in my case.
5: I will save at least 165 Sq ft of usable basement space.
6: no fire hazard in house (low priority, but not unnoticed)
7: much easier access to firewood.
8: new construction layout vs. major retrofit. (Widening doors, adding exterior chimney, cutting wood chute in basement wall.....)
9: With ground level loader tractor access I would perhaps consider a used unit as suggested.
10: it's way cooler!

There are a couple downsides tho:
1:a little more money. 
2: no loading the stove in my boxers.
3: a bit harder to monitor.


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## JohnDolz (Feb 12, 2020)

andym said:


> I saw that option somewhere else for overheat protection, and really liked it. Only real downside is that the heat goes down the drain.


When/if you hear the sounds coming out of an overheating boiler the last thing on your mind will be worrying about wasted heat. I think another poster used the term "pucker"................


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## Bad LP (Feb 12, 2020)

JohnDolz said:


> When/if you hear the sounds coming out of an overheating boiler the last thing on your mind will be worrying about wasted heat. I think another poster used the term "pucker"................


LOL. 
I'm thankful that I could at least manually open every zone valve located next to the boiler however I'm not sure I want to be that close to it.
On the bright side I know if the electric went out and the genset didn't start there is no fan so that pretty much stops combustion so its just dumping some heat into the fin tube.


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## maple1 (Feb 12, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> Sounds like your batteries need replaced now...



I don't  know. Maybe? After I got it switched on I just let it go and shut the gennie off again and brought it back inside since it was outside in a storm. UPS ran the circ Ok until the power came back on, maybe 2 hours? And was still showing 2 bars out of 4 for battery charge left. No doubt it doesn't have the battery life it had when new.


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## Mike Fromme (Feb 13, 2020)

andym said:


> I did a lot of thinking today about how to fit everything in my basement....I've pretty much decided to add a boiler room to my shop. There is a whole list of good reasons for this:
> 1: shop will be somewhat heated simply from 'waste' heat.
> 2: I can easily have room for 1,000 gallons of pressurized storage vs 500 max in basement.
> 3: heavy items can be set in place with tractor! Whew!
> ...


Make sure you check with you code enforcement regarding what they want... might have some specific fire code requirements (double door/fire rated Sheetrock etc). generally the codes are a little easier if the shop is not considered a garage. 

Good choice though I couldn’t imagine having to haul wood down into a basement.


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## salecker (Feb 13, 2020)

My system is in it's own building,it will get attached to my garage once the building inspector signs off.
I would not have it any other way,even after 8 years or so the trip to the boiler room isn't a hassle.


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## andym (Feb 13, 2020)

Still debating the basement vs barn option. Adding up the cost of underground pipe, insulated addition, etc is just more money than I have to spend this year. That along with the fact that ANY underground pipe will lose a lot of btusters time. How much is


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## andym (Feb 13, 2020)

Sorry, here's the rest: how many btus are lost is debatable, but several people mentioned 1 or more cords of wood?

It's too boring to explain, but building the boiler room would take away from the best location for my bigger wood shed.

I'm back to the drawing board on how much storage is feasible in my basement. Much as I like the idea of adding a boiler room to my shop, I just cannot 
fit it in my budget. If money was no issue I would add on to the house!

I'm pretty sure I can get 500 gal of pressurized storage. The qquestion is should I stick with that or go non pressurized to gain more volume? Maybe 750? I would prefer pressurized tho. Seems simpler. Any thoughts?


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## JohnDolz (Feb 13, 2020)

andym said:


> Sorry, here's the rest: how many btus are lost is debatable, but several people mentioned 1 or more cords of wood?
> 
> It's too boring to explain, but building the boiler room would take away from the best location for my bigger wood shed.
> 
> ...


How would you get 500 gallons of pressurized in there? If you can get 1 500 tank horizontally, you can most likely get 2 tanks (I think I made it with 3/4" to spare). I also like the fact that any heat loss is lost into my house. I vote for the simplicity of pressurized.


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## Woodman1 (Feb 13, 2020)

If your going in the house and you originally liked the idea of a modulating setup, have you considered a kuma wood furnace?


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## 3fordasho (Feb 13, 2020)

andym said:


> Sorry, here's the rest: how many btus are lost is debatable, but several people mentioned 1 or more cords of wood?
> 
> It's too boring to explain, but building the boiler room would take away from the best location for my bigger wood shed.
> 
> ...




Everything in the house/basement is most efficient no doubt.   My 2 x500 g tanks are spray foamed and enclosed 2x4 framing with more sheet foam and fiberglass insulation around them.  Even so the 24' x 48' out building they are in stays mid 40f to low 50f's even this morning with -18f outside.  That's significant heat loss from the boiler/piping and storage even though everything is insulated.
At least that heat loss is doing me some good as my cats live in there and it's comfy for firing the boiler ;-)

I don't know how much my 110' of underground line is losing, but temp probes on both ends don't show any temp drop but there has to be some loss there as well.  

 The outbuilding the boiler /storage is in has typical insulation for a garage /shop type building, R11 walls, maybe 6-8" blown cellulose in ceiling and un-insulated floating slab floor.  Before the boiler install I heated it before on an occasional basis and it would take a 3.5 cuft wood stove (Englander 30nc) burning full time to keep it low 60's in there in typical Minnesota winter weather.


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## Bad LP (Feb 13, 2020)

All I know is if I had to get dressed for a trip to an outbuilding I wouldn't have installed the boiler.


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## Mike Fromme (Feb 13, 2020)

andym said:


> Sorry, here's the rest: how many btus are lost is debatable, but several people mentioned 1 or more cords of wood?
> 
> It's too boring to explain, but building the boiler room would take away from the best location for my bigger wood shed.
> 
> ...


Since your still debating what to do...

How about no boiler? Keep the wood stove and instead invest in mini split heat pumps and solar panels.


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## andym (Feb 13, 2020)

Mike Fromme said:


> Since your still debating what to do...
> 
> How about no boiler? Keep the wood stove and instead invest in mini split heat pumps and solar panels.


That would probably not be a bad idea, bit not as fun.


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## andym (Feb 13, 2020)

JohnDolz said:


> How would you get 500 gallons of pressurized in there? If you can get 1 500 tank horizontally, you can most likely get 2 tanks (I think I made it with 3/4" to spare). I also like the fact that any heat loss is lost into my house. I vote for the simplicity of pressurized.


I don't have enough head room to stack horizontal. Ceiling is 85.5". I could possibly do 4 -150s to get me 600.


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## Bad LP (Feb 13, 2020)

andym said:


> I don't have enough head room to stack horizontal. Ceiling is 85.5". I could possibly do 4 -150s to get me 600.


Then look at horizontal layout. Not perfect but it will still work.


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## andym (Feb 13, 2020)

Bad LP said:


> Then look at horizontal layout. Not perfect but it will still work.


85 inches is not enough to stack 500s. Two of the 325 gallon tanks would fit nicely tho.


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## maple1 (Feb 14, 2020)

I was thinking 500's were 36" in diameter. I could be wrong, it has been a while.

But BadLP's comment could have been talking about setting them side by side.


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## JohnDolz (Feb 14, 2020)

andym said:


> 85 inches is not enough to stack 500s. Two of the 325 gallon tanks would fit nicely tho.


I am 92" to the bottom of the floor joists and I think that is as tight a squeeze as possible to stack 2 500's.


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## 3fordasho (Feb 14, 2020)

maple1 said:


> I was thinking 500's were 36" in diameter. I could be wrong, it has been a while.
> 
> But BadLP's comment could have been talking about setting them side by side.




They are 36" maybe 37".   The weld on fittings I used were for a 36" diameter and they fit correctly.  When I stacked them horizontally I spaced the support brackets to have ~12" from the top of the bottom tank to the bottom of the top tank to allow for connections between the two.  Also the bottom tank is on 4" spacers to make connections on the bottom of that tank.  So I agree that 85" would be too tight.  Need about 90" unless you did those connections differently.
	

		
			
		

		
	







Cross bracing was added to the steel supports and supports between tanks added since this picture was taken (before there are concerns voiced that they might fold over ;-)


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## SpaceBus (Feb 14, 2020)

3fordasho said:


> They are 36" maybe 37".   The weld on fittings I used were for a 36" diameter and they fit correctly.  When I stacked them horizontally I spaced the support brackets to have ~12" from the top of the bottom tank to the bottom of the top tank to allow for connections between the two.  Also the bottom tank is on 4" spacers to make connections on the bottom of that tank.  So I agree that 85" would be too tight.  Need about 90" unless you did those connections differently.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow, slick setup. Is yours in a an outbuilding or a basement?


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## brenndatomu (Feb 14, 2020)

3fordasho said:


> Cross bracing was added to the steel supports and supports between tanks added since this picture was taken (before there are concerns voiced that they might fold over ;-)


You stole my thunder with this comment the first time you posted this pic...


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## 3fordasho (Feb 14, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> Wow, slick setup. Is yours in a an outbuilding or a basement?



Outbuilding -  one I can drive my skid loader into.  Makes things less challenging ;-)


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## salecker (Feb 14, 2020)

Bad LP said:


> All I know is if I had to get dressed for a trip to an outbuilding I wouldn't have installed the boiler.


In my case every time i go to load the boiler i think of all the money i save by having it in a separate building. Plus i get to enjoy my favorite legal refreashment in a warm workshop.You noticed the warm workshop part...I have a warm place to go work on anything i like 24/7.It can be stinky, dirty and it doesn't matter,nobody gets their nose out of joint.


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## SpaceBus (Feb 14, 2020)

salecker said:


> In my case every time i go to load the boiler i think of all the money i save by having it in a separate building. Plus i get to enjoy my favorite legal refreashment in a warm workshop.You noticed the warm workshop part...I have a warm place to go work on anything i like 24/7.It can be stinky, dirty and it doesn't matter,nobody gets their nose out of joint.


Yeah, I plan on building a large shop, large enough to fit my 38' class A RV for maintenance. A wood boiler in a dedicated room seems like the way to go. Long term the plan is to heat a greenhouse and grow food year round.


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## andym (Feb 14, 2020)

3fordasho said:


> They are 36" maybe 37".   The weld on fittings I used were for a 36" diameter and they fit correctly.  When I stacked them horizontally I spaced the support brackets to have ~12" from the top of the bottom tank to the bottom of the top tank to allow for connections between the two.  Also the bottom tank is on 4" spacers to make connections on the bottom of that tank.  So I agree that 85" would be too tight.  Need about 90" unless you did those connections differently.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was told 37 inches for a 500g. I was not doing my math right...85 inches would only allow approx 11 inches to connect and insulate. Could be done but Im leaning in favor of the 30x114 tanks. Slightly smaller footprint, but still would give 650 gallons. 

How big of expansion tank is required for 650 gallons?

3fordasho....how did you make the plumbing connection between tanks? 

Is it best to foam the tanks or box them in with Styrofoam? What kind of R value should I aim for in a compact boiler room set?


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## maple1 (Feb 14, 2020)

If I was stacking 500's, I would just rest one right on top of the other & weld lots of braces. Or maybe add a couple inches of channel in between to get a little space. I would have my fittings come out horizontal vs. out vertical out the bottom. Kind of like this:







If I was stuck for headroom, that is.


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## 3fordasho (Feb 14, 2020)

andym said:


> I was told 37 inches for a 500g. I was not doing my math right...85 inches would only allow approx 11 inches to connect and insulate. Could be done but Im leaning in favor of the 30x114 tanks. Slightly smaller footprint, but still would give 650 gallons.
> 
> How big of expansion tank is required for 650 gallons?
> 
> ...



I have this for 1000 gallons :  https://www.menards.com/main/plumbing/pumps-tanks/well-pumps-well-tanks/water-worker-reg-119-gallon-vertical-pressurized-well-tank/ht119/p-1533623339182-c-1489153238829.htm
It's rated a bit lower temp than a more expensive expansion tank (Like 200f vs 230F) but in my install only the bottom 8" of the tank gets just warm to the touch even with the system at full pressure and temperature.   I caught it on sale + 11% Menards rebate.  My base system pressure at 50C storage temps is about .6 bar.   With storage fully charged at ~82-85C it might hit 1.1 bar max pressure so plenty of head room yet.  Relief valve set to 2 bar.
For  650 gallon storage system and following the same ratio you would need 77 gallon tank.
On the well tanks you lower the factory pre-charge from 39 psi  - I think I went to 8 psi.  Just like changing tire pressure.

tank connections between tanks :   https://www.mcmaster.com/1698t12
To get the ports where I wanted I used a carbide tipped 1.75" hole saw to cut hole, then welded in the McMaster fitting.  Then it's just 1.25" sweat copper between the two tanks.

I spray foamed the tanks individually,  put into place, made connections, built 2x4 frame around and then sprayed a bit more foam.
1.5" foil faced foam on back wall and underneath bottom tank.  R-13 fiberglass  in 2x4 framing, 6" sheet foam over the top.  Wrapped entire thing in sheet plastic and taped seams.  Pretty good but could use more on the top and better sealing for the top.






Here is the front of my storage tank enclosure - need to seal up the temperature readout panel.


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## 3fordasho (Feb 14, 2020)

Well (expansion) tank with system hot:


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## 3fordasho (Feb 14, 2020)

Boiler while fired:


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## 3fordasho (Feb 14, 2020)

Piping/valves/circulator/dirt trap/ air vents :


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## Bad LP (Feb 14, 2020)

maple1 said:


> I was thinking 500's were 36" in diameter. I could be wrong, it has been a while.
> 
> But BadLP's comment could have been talking about setting them side by side.


Yes. A single 500 or pair of 325’s. 
Of course a tight spacing of notched and welded pipes between the tanks keeps the overall height down too.


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## andym (Feb 14, 2020)

maple1 said:


> If I was stacking 500's, I would just rest one right on top of the other & weld lots of braces. Or maybe add a couple inches of channel in between to get a little space. I would have my fittings come out horizontal vs. out vertical out the bottom. Kind of like this:
> 
> View attachment 257051
> 
> ...


Very cool. I would have to stack them after hauling them down. I think it could be done tho. 

I see a drain for each tank. The two bigger pipes are the lines going to the boiler?

Entering and leaving the tanks should be done horizontally anyway from what I've read. 

I'm assuming you always want 2 pipes connecting the tanks?


Thanks for andll the info guys.


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## andym (Feb 14, 2020)

3fordasho: the mcmaster adapter looks great. I jotted that down. Would there be anything wrong with just welding in a section of pipe?

To anyone: what kind of thermometers should be used on the tanks? 
Does the boiler need to read the temperature at the tank? or does this take place elsewhere? Or does this all depend on the type of boiler controller that is used?


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## Bad LP (Feb 14, 2020)

I’m 92” total including a crap ton of top insulation. Both tanks have drains at the bottom for sediment purging. For temp and pressure I just used a standard off the shelf boiler gauge and I installed some access doors.


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## maple1 (Feb 14, 2020)

andym said:


> Very cool. I would have to stack them after hauling them down. I think it could be done tho.
> 
> I see a drain for each tank. The two bigger pipes are the lines going to the boiler?
> 
> ...



The two big ones in the middle just connect the two tanks. After I got them in place and finished the piping.


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## andym (Feb 15, 2020)

maple1 said:


> The two big ones in the middle just connect the two tanks. After I got them in place and finished the piping.


So you just have one pipe connecting the two tanks?


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## maple1 (Feb 15, 2020)

andym said:


> So you just have one pipe connecting the two tanks?



Yes. Can't see any reason to have more.

The other end has the boiler tappings. One very top & one very bottom. Also horizontal, like the other ones.


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## ExxWhy (Feb 18, 2020)

andym said:


> I travel around more in ohio than michigan. Where are you located?
> 
> My house wil be heated with the central furnace. I have the option of installing some radiant on the main level, but that's definitely going to wait.



I live about 35 miles SW of Cleveland.


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