# Please Stop The Classic Stove Owner Shaming



## Shwammy (Sep 14, 2014)

Why does every post in the "Classic Stove Forum" have someone bothering the original poster to go buy a new EPA stove instead of the classic stove they want to use? I feel like I'm at Starbucks everytime I try to read and learn things on this site. Wouldn't it be prudent to mention that putting a simple baffle in the old stove and checking to see that the door seals correctly will increase it's burn times? Sorry, not trying to go on a rant but it is quite bothersome to see the same thing repeated over and over on every thread. Please at least try to answer the posters questions first before shaming them to buy a new stove. So many of these threads are simply a question from an old stove owner and a reply from someone telling them their old stove sucks and that they should buy a new one with no info or help given whatsoever. You don't see classic stove owners on the other forums scaring new stove owners in every thread about how well they have to season their wood to get their stoves to burn right do you? Do these posters also tell everyone they meet who doesn't drive a Prius that their car sucks and they should get one? Please go be a stove snob somewhere other that the "Classic Stove Forum". Some of us want to learn things that come with people using and or modifying their old stoves. Some of us don't want to replace baffles and burn tubes that fall apart. Some of us don't want a stove we can't use when the power is out. Okay, rant over, I had to do it. So please people, stop whipping out your EPA mantra every time someone posts on the "Classic Stove Forum".


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## BrotherBart (Sep 14, 2014)

I pretty much agree. But most folks just think they are being helpful. Many have heated many years with the older stoves, me included, and want to let folks know there is a better way.




Shwammy said:


> scaring new stove owners in every thread about how well they have to season their wood to get their stoves to burn right do you?



But that needs to be done. I don't care what stove you are burning in. Wish somebody had educated me on that a whole lot of years ago.


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## Shwammy (Sep 14, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> I pretty much agree. But most folks just think they are being helpful. Many have heated many years with the older stoves, me included, and want to let folks know there is a better way.
> 
> But that needs to be done. I don't care what stove you are burning in. Wish somebody had educated me on that a whole lot of years ago.




It would be nice if there was some subtly to it, like trying to actually answer the posters questions first. It is not nice to shame and run. I've clicked countless links to this site only to find yet another Fisher owner or other old stove owner accosted on this forum with no help given to them whatsoever. As for the seasoning of the wood my point is that new stoves will not burn unseasoned wood like old stoves will, but old stove owners don't go around scaring new stove owners about it in every thread. Of course it makes a big difference, but if that was not the question of the original poster it shouldn't be the only thing mentioned in a reply to their post.


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## BrotherBart (Sep 14, 2014)

I hear ya. But we aren't gonna start deleting those posts any more than we are gonna start deleting all of those posts from people that pop up in the hearth room telling everybody that they have been burning since Moses was in diapers and that EPA stoves are crap and their Timberline (actually it is usually an Ashley) is the greatest thing since pockets on pants.

Chill.


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## KD0AXS (Sep 14, 2014)

We would probably have an "old" stove if it wasn't for our insurance company's requirements, since we were offered one for free.  We were required to get a new stove that carried UL approval and have it installed by a licensed contractor with a permit pulled and signed off by the city building inspector.


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## Shwammy (Sep 14, 2014)

I hear that, the "I've been burning since I was in diapers, I know it all" crowd is pretty annoying and they sure get angry when they are smoke shamed by some Prius stove owner who won't stop to help just to sneer. It's an apt comparison really. One is a bullheaded know it all, the other is an arrogant know it all. It's actually quite comical to see these posts together. I just think maybe suggesting a baffle and trying to answer the posters question is the way to go, that's all. Perhaps the shaming would be better suited for people who heat with an open fireplace, bunch of neanderthals that they are, lol. Moving on, thanks for the responses BB.


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## dafattkidd (Sep 15, 2014)

Hey man, based on a lot of other forums I've been on, the members and staff here seem to be super nice and very helpful. We're not perfect, but it's a great on line community. Also, EPA burners don't need smoke dragon owners to shame them into getting 80 cords of wood - we already shame ourselves. It's like catholic guilt for hillbillies.


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## ryjen (Sep 15, 2014)

You know, I think it would help if you just bought a new, EPA stove. Then you wouldn't get upset at the posts in this forum.




What? Too early?


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## Jags (Sep 15, 2014)

Hmmm...a few thoughts.  Stove modifications like adding baffles is not really a recommended practice.  In no way am I saying that it doesn't work, but it is probably a job that very few civilians are gonna take on, not too mention you just killed any certification the stove may/may not have had UL or otherwise.
Second - lots of those old stove are tanks.  Real work horses.  Heat belching, log chomping, clothes reducing machines.  I don't know if you (to the OP) have noticed a trend towards wood burning.  Lots of people complaining about it.  "Polluters" they say.  Bad burning habits amplify this.  Continuing on the same path as burning trash or tires in an OWB or "little puff the magic dragon" burning green wood (cuz he can) isn't helping.
EPA stoves are our friends in this fight.  Much like the emission controls on current cars.  Speaking of workhorses, remember the black bumpers of all those smoke belching diesel Mercedes? 

Dunno - maybe its not an attack on the old stoves (maybe it is).  Maybe its more pointed towards an era.


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## bholler (Sep 15, 2014)

I have no problem with old stoves at all. In fact i use a 40 year old stove although it is far from a smoke dragon.   But if someone is looking at spending allot of money to bring their setup to code because of lack of clearance or if their stove needs rebuilt i will suggest it may be cheaper and easier to get a new one.  If your setup is working well and has proper clearance great Keep using it if you want to.  But i will always push for good and safe burning practice and proper clearances which on old stoves the clearances are huge.  And by the way old stoves should always have dry wood also.  I agree that there should not be an immediate push to replace all old stoves but sometimes it makes sense.


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## Charlie2 (Sep 15, 2014)

Here again, as to your pollution output, it's all about location, are you in some little hollow in the eastern mountains or in the open plains of Oklahoma, it ain't the same. Just like wood doesn't dry the same in different locations, but still folks keep trying to lump it all together and make absolute statements . It's real world around here and most of us deal with the diversity, I love the place.


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## fossil (Sep 15, 2014)

Old stoves burned right do OK service.  Any stove burned wrong does crappy service.  When I say service, I'm talking about service to the user and service to the environment we all share.  New stoves burned right do better service, but that doesn't mean all old stoves or all old stove owners/users are evil.  As far as modifying an old stove goes, I'd have to say there's probably a small minority of owners who are capable of/would be inclined to do it.  And the results might well be counter-productive.  

When I joined here, I had bought a house with an old Lopi 530 (I think), and I was talking about moving it from one location to another in the same room, thinking I was finding a clever way around Oregon law concerning old wood stoves.  Responses and comments I got from some of the same sorts of "new stove advocate" folks you're talking about really got me to thinking, and I did a lot of research on the whole subject.  Ended up opting to have a brand new EPA certified Lopi Liberty installed instead.  Glad I did.  But given a different situation...one in which the location wasn't an issue, I'm not sure I would have elected to replace it, as the law allows grandfathering of older stoves so long as they're not moved/re-installed.  

We have lots of folks here who are fans of older stoves, and they know how to burn them.  I suspect you're among them.  Don't let the "pre-EPA-stove-haters" get to you.  Burn your stove as responsibly as you know how, enjoy the warmth it brings into your home.  Bring your thoughts, comments, and experiences here to discuss with others.

Always have patience and tolerance with different points of view.  Rick


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## Frank625 (Sep 16, 2014)

I burn a pre-epa stove and heat my home with it. I do it to make ends meet and stay warm. Someday maybe I will get an epa stove but I doubt it. Laying out $1K or $2K for a stove to use less wood and make less smoke just isn't a realistic goal for me. I am very happy with the performance of my stove and don't need to see the fire. From what I have seen so far I am not really impressed with EPA Stoves anyway.


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## Tenn Dave (Sep 16, 2014)

Frank625 said:


> I burn a pre-epa stove and heat my home with it. I do it to make ends meet and stay warm. Someday maybe I will get an epa stove but I doubt it. Laying out $1K or $2K for a stove to use less wood and make less smoke just isn't a realistic goal for me. I am very happy with the performance of my stove and don't need to see the fire. From what I have seen so far I am not really impressed with EPA Stoves anyway.


Old attitudes die hard.  What part of EPA stove performance doesn't impress you?  What would you have to see to be impressed?


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## Frank625 (Sep 16, 2014)

Tenn Dave said:


> Old attitudes die hard.  What part of EPA stove performance doesn't impress you?  What would you have to see to be impressed?


A 12 hour burn & a descent ash pan. The ones I have seen, had to shovel ashes into an ash pan hole. My ashes just fall into the pan and I pull it every other day to empty it without disturbing the firebox.


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## Jags (Sep 16, 2014)

Frank625 said:


> A 12 hour burn & a descent ash pan. The ones I have seen, had to shovel ashes into an ash pan hole. My ashes just fall into the pan and I pull it every other day to empty it without disturbing the firebox.



As does the Quadrafire Isle Royale.


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## bholler (Sep 16, 2014)

If you prefer an older stove that is fine but Long burn times and an ash pan is no reason to say new ones are no good.  There are more parts to go bad on new ones for sure that is a valid argument.  They do require better wood but old ones should use dry wood also.  I have do problem with people that either don't want to switch stoves of cant justify spending the money but there are very good new stoves out there to fill just about every need.


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## Tenn Dave (Sep 16, 2014)

Frank625 said:


> A 12 hour burn & a descent ash pan. The ones I have seen, had to shovel ashes into an ash pan hole. My ashes just fall into the pan and I pull it every other day to empty it without disturbing the firebox.


Check out the Woodstock line of stoves.  They put out very little pollution to the air we all have to breathe, have a wonderful ash pan system, long burn times. and use much less wood to heat your house.  We should all respect the earth and pollute as little as possible.  If not for yourself, do it for your children and grandchildren.


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## pma1123 (Sep 16, 2014)

Not all pre-EPA stove users have a vogelzang boxwood stove with single wall snap-lock pipe routed through a window. 
But yet, there is a fair assumption that older stoves generally also are accompanied by an older install.  For me, (early 30's) I bought a house with a woodstove, had a home inspector do their thing and also a sweep come out to evaluate.  I ended up still finding out some things about my particular install that still weren't right after the fact, but not caught by the 'experts' I had called upon and paid for their services. This is where the help of this forum comes into play, as we want to see people have a place to learn about doing things safely and responsibly. 

At the point of having a safe install, (environmental mumbo jumbo aside) burn in whatever makes you happy as long as it keeps you and your family safe.  You can't please everyone, and there is no sense attempting to with some folks.  For many, a new stove is not something that's in the budget or brings enough enjoyment to re-invest into.  And some people don't mind consuming an extra couple cords of wood keeping the same box they've been using to stay cozy for years.  It helps keep the heating hobby affordable.


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## bholler (Sep 16, 2014)

I would like to add that if burnt right with good wood old stoves can burn pretty clean also.   Not as clean as new ones but still not to bad.  The problem is many people burning old stoves are still of the old school mentality that you can burn wet wood and shut it down hard which gives to old ones a really bad reputation.


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## fire_man (Sep 16, 2014)

I don't miss anything except the fine looks of my old stinking Pre-EPA VC Resolute.

I now get longer burn times, clean the flue MUCH less frequently, and don't choke when I'm outside.


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## fossil (Sep 16, 2014)

Oh stop.  He likes his stove.  He doesn't want a new stove.  Read the OP's post and just stop.  Rick


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## fire_man (Sep 16, 2014)

If the OP is going to rant in a post, he has to expect some other points of view to surface.


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## bholler (Sep 16, 2014)

I didnt see it before but i am starting to see the op's point lol.


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## BrotherBart (Sep 16, 2014)

bholler said:


> I didnt see it before but i am starting to see the op's point lol.



Get rid of the Cawley.


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## BrotherBart (Sep 16, 2014)

I think the point has been made with this one.


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## pen (Sep 16, 2014)

Shwammy said:


> So please people, stop whipping out your EPA mantra every time someone posts on the "Classic Stove Forum".



I don't care what someone burns, but I do care to make sure they are informed.  One thing I like to make certain folks understand is that in MANY places, installing an older stove in one's home may cause things to fall apart with the insurance company.  Reason I often tell people to check local codes and with the insurance first, is because I'd hate to see them spend money on a stove that they can't run in their home.

I've been accused of that being "anti-whatever" for this but to me, it's information that a person needs to know.


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## fossil (Sep 16, 2014)

fire_man said:


> If the OP is going to rant in a post, he has to expect some other points of view to surface.



If it's just another thread to nowhere, what's the point?  Rick


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## BrotherBart (Sep 16, 2014)

That is why I closed it three posts ago. It could continue to degenerate for decades.


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## fossil (Sep 16, 2014)




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## BrotherBart (Sep 20, 2014)

pma1123 said:


> Not all pre-EPA stove users have a vogelzang boxwood stove with single wall snap-lock pipe routed through a window.


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