# Wood Pellets vs. natural gas furance



## Mike49024

So bummed...

I put in my pellet stove insert last month (p35i) in my raised ranch home (1700sq ft heating floor) hoping to drop my natural gas heating costs.

On weekdays I run it when I get home from work til I go to bed 4pm-midnight and from 9am to midnight on the weekends.  When the stove runs, the furnace does not.

I went though about a half ton over the last month (approx $100)

Got my Consumers (Electricity and natural gas) bill for the last month. $244 (14.2MCF).  Down from 295 (18.6MCF) this month last year. So it dropped $50, but I burned $100 in pellets.  

Granted the living area is much warmer with the zoned heating, but the rest of the house is colder (bedrooms and for sure the basement).  

Not to mention the cost of the stove.  I like my stove, but what a disappointment. 

:down:


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## SmokeyTheBear

Mike49024 said:
			
		

> So bummed...
> 
> I put in my pellet stove insert last month (p35i) in my raised ranch home (1700sq ft heating floor) hoping to drop my natural gas heating costs.
> 
> On weekdays I run it when I get home from work til I go to bed 4pm-midnight and from 9am to midnight on the weekends.  When the stove runs, the furnace does not.
> 
> I went though about a half ton over the last month (approx $100)
> 
> Got my Consumers (Electricity and natural gas) bill for the last month. $244 (14.2MCF).  Down from 295 (18.6MCF) this month last year. So it dropped $50, but I burned $100 in pellets.
> 
> Granted the living area is much warmer with the zoned heating, but the rest of the house is colder (bedrooms and for sure the basement).
> 
> Not to mention the cost of the stove.  I like my stove, but what a disappointment.
> 
> :down:



Natural gas is usually one of the least expensive means of heating a house.  

A little upfront homework should have at least shown you that.

I can't get natural gas here and likely it will never be available here.

Propane is worse than oil here so that is out.   Oil is definitely worse than pellets.  I've already done the coal thing once too much ash to get rid of, and don't care for the wood handling which I've also done in the past.  Don't even want to think about electric heat.    Maybe a water loop heat pump would work, but getting a decent coil in the ground or in wells isn't cheap and not likely to repay its cost for us.


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## Delta-T

BTU for BTU, I'm pretty sure NG is less expensive than pellets...so I'm not that surprised that you didn't save any $$, that being said, stoves are still nice. Its certainly more enjoyable than sitting around the furnace enjoying the.....fire? Bide your time. I'm sure in the near future there will be a jump in NG prices and then you'll be ahead of the curve.


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## Mike49024

Going in, I did know that NG was a "cheap" heat source.  However, I thought zone heating would result in some good savings.

And agreed, the stove is a nice feature to the home.  And yep, we'll just have to wait and see what happens with the cost of natural gas vs pellets in the future..

The one thing I am hoping for as far as heating cost, is that I did not have my OAK installed until last weekend.  So hopefully that will help out with the overall efficiency of the house.


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## Elatu

It was costing me $800 every 6 weeks for propane. It costs me about $5 per day to heat my house now with pellets.
Natural Gas may be the "cheap" alternative, but I cannot get it where I live. After looking at this link, it may have you think twice about using it or supporting the companies that are providing it.
Lots if links below about the documentary Gasland:

http://www.google.ca/search?client=...&resnum=2&ved=0CDQQqwQwAQ&fp=34709b7ff5185978


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## dsnedegar3

Let us know how the OAK works out for you.


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## Fsappo

If a customer ever asks me about pellets, one of my first questions is "what do you heat with currently?"  If they say Natural Gas, I give them a full education including a cost per btu breakdown before selling the pellet appliance.  If they want to still go ahead out of the "green" factor, or whatever..sure.  But at least I know they made an educated decision.  If you or anyone else wants to use a very unbiased heat calculator, shoot me an email and I'll send you the spread sheet.

It sounds like you didnt get great advice from the Hearth proffesional that you bought your pellet heater from.

Would have been better off and just as comfy zone heating with a good direct vent gas stove.


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## tjnamtiw

As others have said, NG is about as cheap as you can get except for coal.  You really should have used one of the many fuel cost comparison charts that are linked to many times on this site.


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## Turbo-Quad

My mom heats about the same space as me with natural gas and she spends $350 a month.  I'm spening  about $220.  Her house is insulated and mine isn't.  I live out in the country and had propane so for me it was a no brainer.  Gas must be cheaper up there.


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## ChrisWNY

Yeah, I *wish* I had the natural gas option, I heat from Propane and at $2.50 per gallon (not including delivery charges) it's really expensive to rely on LP gas for heat. A ton of pellets in my area goes for about $180; 1 ton of pellets is roughly equivalent to 180 gallons of propane, so $450 for equivalent BTU's for LP gas. The choice was clear in my case, either spend $350-$400 PER month for propane to heat my house, or invest in a pellet burner where a ton of pellets might last me 2-3 months (we only run our pellet furnace 4-5 hours per day on week days, and 6-7 hours on weekends, we burn through 4 bags or so of pellets per week, so a ton should last us 2 months in theory). We have our pellet furnace ducted directly to our great room, where we are 90% of the time in our house, and with an open floor plan, the kitchen and den get more than enough heat. Also, the upstairs heats up real nicely. On LP, we couldn't come close to heating our house to the temps we heat to with pellets.

However, I do have friends and coworkers who heat with NG that pay $200 per month 12 months per year on balanced billing. Pellets are still cheaper than NG, but the cost difference isn't as significant as other types of heating fuels (oil and LP).


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## chris288

tjnamtiw said:
			
		

> As others have said, NG is about as cheap as you can get except for coal.  You really should have used one of the many fuel cost comparison charts that are linked to many times on this site.



In my area, coal is no bargain, my dad heats his entire house with it and he's paying more / ton of coal than I am for pellets. I think it's 260.00 / ton..


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## j00fek

nat gas >*    if i could heat with it i would, cheaper than oil and the united states+canada has ALOT newly discovered.


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## SmokeyTheBear

chris288 said:
			
		

> tjnamtiw said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As others have said, NG is about as cheap as you can get except for coal.  You really should have used one of the many fuel cost comparison charts that are linked to many times on this site.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In my area, coal is no bargain, my dad heats his entire house with it and he's paying more / ton of coal than I am for pellets. I think it's 260.00 / ton..
Click to expand...


There are a lot more BTUs in a ton of coal versus a ton of wood pellets.


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## chris288

True, there are about 30,000,000 BTu's / ton of coal compared to about 17,000,000 BTu's / ton of wood pellets, but a ton of coal also costs about 1/3 more than pellets, so the difference isn't all that much, as the OP makes it sound. Back when coal was 40-50.00 / ton and pellets were 100.00 / ton, there was more savings to be had.


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## tjnamtiw

chris288 said:
			
		

> True, there are about 30,000,000 BTu's / ton of coal compared to about 17,000,000 BTu's / ton of wood pellets, but a ton of coal also costs about 1/3 more than pellets, so the difference isn't all that much, as the OP makes it sound. Back when coal was 40-50.00 / ton and pellets were 100.00 / ton, there was more savings to be had.



If you haul your own pellets, then you are equipped to haul your own coal.  Coal right now from the small independents in Tamaqua, Pa is at $170 a ton.  My brother in law heats with their rice coal in a stoker.  So with your btu's, coal is about 1/2 as expensive per btu than wood pellets.  You just are looking at the right places for coal.  You have to buy bulk and not bags of coal.  You should NOT be paying $300 a ton


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## tjnamtiw

Turbo-Quad said:
			
		

> My mom heats about the same space as me with natural gas and she spends $350 a month.  I'm spening  about $220.  Her house is insulated and mine isn't.  I live out in the country and had propane so for me it was a no brainer.  Gas must be cheaper up there.



Yea but, Turbo, if she's like my mother-in-law (I hope not, for your sake  :lol: ) she keeps the house at 78..........

Coal IS cheaper IF you live close enough to haul it yourself from a breaker.


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## Vinelife

Use the stove 24/7 then you wont have much of a ng bill.


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## tjnamtiw

chris288 said:
			
		

> tjnamtiw said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As others have said, NG is about as cheap as you can get except for coal.  You really should have used one of the many fuel cost comparison charts that are linked to many times on this site.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In my area, coal is no bargain, my dad heats his entire house with it and he's paying more / ton of coal than I am for pellets. I think it's 260.00 / ton..
Click to expand...


$260 a ton was what we were all paying for pellets last year don't forget so last year your dad was getting twice the btu's for the same price!  Who knows about next year with the way the EPA is screwing things up!


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## dragracer300

In my case i have natural gas. Last year with gas i spent 250 in the month of december and close to 500 a month for jan and feb. With pellets i have spent 175 for december and january looks to be about the same. But i do have a old drafty house with a older not so efficient furnace. With the furnace i set the t-stat at 66 and the pellet t-stat is at 70. I do have cold spots but at this time pellets are cheaper for me. If i upgrade my furnace and continue to insulate and replace windows gas may be cheaper i was just loosing to much up the vent pipe.


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## poconoman

What MOST people fail to realize is that a pellet stove is a _*SPACE*_ heater and _*NOT*_ a whole house heater. That's what _*FURNACES*_ do. I have a coal hot air furnace and THAT'S what keeps my whole house warm. When it's in the 40's, then the stove will do fine. Below that, it's the coal. BUT, I love the PC45 though.


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## SmokeyTheBear

poconoman said:
			
		

> What MOST people fail to realize is that a pellet stove is a _*SPACE*_ heater and _*NOT*_ a whole house heater. That's what _*FURNACES*_ do. I have a coal hot air furnace and THAT'S what keeps my whole house warm. When it's in the 40's, then the stove will do fine. Below that, it's the coal. BUT, I love the PC45 though.




But, but poconoman as one of the mod's sig says I know that the stove is a space heater, the space I want to heat is my house.


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## wingman1776

I know my stove is  spce heater but it heats my entire ranch house. ng to pellets right now are about the same price here but my furnce uses 650 watts of eletricity and runs about 4 times an hour. My stove used less then 100 watts runs 24/7 so I know i am saving a few bux on the juice plus my house is warmer now then when i was using the gas cause i kept it turned down to keep cost down and I would rather give my money to any one but the power company


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## JoeS

When I first moved into my present home we had propane. I figured that was all that was available, why else would it be here. After my first heating season and propane bills of 550.00/month and more I said to the wife we need to figure out another way. We ended up purchasing a Mt. Vernon AE pellet stove. The first winter with the stove we burned about 5 tons and used less than 100 gallons of propane. I thought I was a genius. The next summer a cable company was updating the lines and they were digging holes for the new fiber optics. They had flags everywhere marking phone lines and electric lines. I was cutting the lawn one day and as I got to the end of the yard where they were digging I noticed a yellow flag. I couldn't believe it. A yellow flag denotes natural gas. I had natural gas running right in front of the house! We live on a 3 acre parcel and I only have 3 neighbors. I asked them if they knew there was NG at the end of the property and their response was yes, it has been here for a few years. I asked why they never switched over! Their response, why is it cheaper? Well to make a long story short I had our local gas company hook us up and had all the furnaces and appliances switched over to NG. I almost had the stove pulled to put a NG stove in but I just couldn't do it. I know NG is half the price of propane and I also know that NG is cheaper than running the pellet stove but there is something about the pellet stove that won't let me get rid of it. I will probably burn about 3 tons or so this year and supplement with NG even though it would probably be cheaper just to run the NG furnaces. Maybe one day (I actually hope this doesn't happen) pellets will be less expensive than NG and I will look like a genius again for getting this stove.


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## Vinelife

I heat my whole house with my Sante Fe.....no problem.....


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## Snowy Rivers

I live in an area that does not have natural gas available, and where it is, its spendy $$$$

The choices are Propane, electricity or oil.

The result was the installation of more than one pellet stove and using renewable bio fuel in the stoves.

2 stoves to heat 2400 feet and the cost is about 80 cents a day per stove.

Probably about 50 bucks a month for the two stoves, and the only time we use both stoves is during really cold weather.

Many times, one pellet stove will not do a great job at heating a large house.

The issue is the amount of air that has to be heated and if the house is cut up with a lot of small rooms, it tough to get the heat to move through all the rooms.

Smaller stoves and More Of Them is the answer.

I bought two used stoves at $200 each and these have almost paid for themselves already at todays stove prices.

Just some ramblings

Snowy


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## tjnamtiw

dragracer300 said:
			
		

> In my case i have natural gas. Last year with gas i spent 250 in the month of december and close to 500 a month for jan and feb. With pellets i have spent 175 for december and january looks to be about the same. But i do have a old drafty house with a older not so efficient furnace. With the furnace i set the t-stat at 66 and the pellet t-stat is at 70. I do have cold spots but at this time pellets are cheaper for me. If i upgrade my furnace and continue to insulate and replace windows gas may be cheaper i was just loosing to much up the vent pipe.




Wow, that is amazing.  I have to say, given your circumstances, I stand corrected  Imagine how much you could save if you replaced that very old furnace with a 96% efficient one!


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## dragracer300

I agree and i plan on doing that hopefully this summer if the money holds out along with windows and doors and more insulation. Right now i;m just lucky enough to still have my house. There are 25 houses on my road and 15 of those are in foreclosure so the pellet stove was my only option to stay warm this winter. Our area has been hit pretty hard by the economy so I'm doing everything i can to stay afloat.


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## Greg M

poconoman said:
			
		

> What MOST people fail to realize is that a pellet stove is a _*SPACE*_ heater and _*NOT*_ a whole house heater. That's what _*FURNACES*_ do. I have a coal hot air furnace and THAT'S what keeps my whole house warm. When it's in the 40's, then the stove will do fine. Below that, it's the coal. BUT, I love the PC45 though.



My "space heater" heats my living room to a cozy 78 and the bedrooms to 68.  My heat pumps have been off all season.  They're dual fuel HPs but the furnace runs on propane.  I got rid of my propane last summer.  I've saved some money but I've also been more comfortable.



			
				Mike49024 said:
			
		

> So bummed...
> 
> I put in my pellet stove insert last month (p35i) in my raised ranch home (1700sq ft heating floor) hoping to drop my natural gas heating costs.
> 
> On weekdays I run it when I get home from work til I go to bed 4pm-midnight and from 9am to midnight on the weekends.  When the stove runs, the furnace does not.
> 
> I went though about a half ton over the last month (approx $100)
> 
> Got my Consumers (Electricity and natural gas) bill for the last month. $244 (14.2MCF).  Down from 295 (18.6MCF) this month last year. So it dropped $50, but I burned $100 in pellets.
> 
> Granted the living area is much warmer with the zoned heating, but the rest of the house is colder (bedrooms and for sure the basement).
> 
> Not to mention the cost of the stove.  I like my stove, but what a disappointment.
> 
> :down:



Give me the price you pay for gas plus the efficiency rating of your furnace along with the price you pay for pellets and the efficiency rating of your stove.  I can then tell you what you pay for each per million BTUs.  That will help you to be able to compare apples to apples.


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## Nicholas440

My house is  all natural gas, and  I dont see much of a savings when using pellets, especially if  the temp outside is below 35 or so, because my furnace still needs to run a few times at night to warm the far end of the house, but when the temp outside is 40 or above my furnace never runs.   I like to sit back in my recliner on cold nights and watch the flames,  to me its very very relaxing,  like my fireplace was when I burned logs.   And of course my Pellet insert is just a space heater, I didnt expect it to act like a central heat system,  but for some of you your pellet burner warms your entire house,  for me that just does not happen.



Natural gas is cheap here in Northeast Ohio, my rate per MCF  was reduced again this past August of 2010, so my cost per MCF is only $6.72 , and thats very reasonable.   My only regret is that in hindsight I should have got the Harmon  instead of this Quadrafire Castile,  its nice, but it buzzes, rattles, vibrates, whistles, and growls at times.  I'm very disappointed in the quality of workmanship for a $3,400  stove, and the blowers are so loud I have to turn the volume way up when I watch tv.


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## Greg M

Wow, that's cheap for gas.  Depending on what you're paying for pellets your gas could very well be half the price of those pellets per million BTUs (output).  Your gas price is also cheaper then a heat pump even when the outside air temp is in the 40's.


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## littlesmokey

I live in one of the cheapest natural gas service areas in the country. That said, we are actually cheaperthan anywhere else because we are at a different delivery rate and method of calculating use. I am not the engineer that made the calculations, but fact is, you can't get it cheaper. The only problem is the service provider is not what i would like to call "fair". Four years ago, because of their method of calculating use, I was charged an adjustment. Not because I used more, but because they screwed up. When I refused to pay, they sent me a bill for $750+ for a March, that historically had averaged about $40. and the year was warmer than usual. I said, "you have 48 hours to remove your line and meter from my property before I pull it from the ground with may van. Idly threat???? Hardly. They removed the service.

That said, I am in an urban area with "cheap" NG, but it really isn't the loses the supplier has had are made up with connection fees and special assessment fees, and side of the road fees, and fees for size of your house or whatever, so there is no real measure. Their fees are published, but the actual billed fees for units are at least 20% more on the actual bill. That leaves me off grid, paying about the same amount by heating with pellets and wood, I do not cut my own wood, or make my own pellets. 

Frankly. heating to me is keeping the ice off the cereal at breakfast in the winter. I get overheated going to the grocery store. When you try and conserve, that doesn't mean cranking the heat up and expecting the new stove to save you money. If you have a high utility bill for electric or propane or natural gas, you think of conserving, right? When you add the spectacular efficient stove, you forget the conserve.... And now the truth begins.

Anytime you burn your stove to supplement your heat, you are saving some. That is the issue. If you have propane or electric only, you are saving a bunch, if you have coal or natural gas, not so much.

I can buy coal cheaper than pellets and almost as cheap as firewood (best prices), but coal stinks to me, kerosene was cheap in November, so cheap I heated the shop with unit heaters, last week it was up to $4.49 per gallon best price. Doubled in a month. Propane is actually cheaper right now than K1, we don't have heating oil out here under 300 gallons delivered (last price 3.39 per gallon). So pick your poison. I hate the smell of coal, but like the smell of the softwood pellets .


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## rehabbingisgreen

I'll be putting in a couple gas ventless heaters because the pellet stove isn't keeping the house warm enough when it gets below 20. I'm cold.


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## Spartan

Here is some quick numbers.....

Natural gas has 35,500 BTU per cubic meter (Canucks) and 1,020 BTU per cubic foot. 

I do not know what gas prices are like in the US, but here in Ontario, it's 13 cents a m3 but by the time you add up all the sub charges and taxes, it's about 33 cents a m3. 

Soo....taking Ontario figures......in the most basic calculation, assuming 8,900 BTU/pound pellets, then the pellets have to be 1/4 of the price of natural gas to beak even, or about $165 per ton NET (including delivery and taxes). 

If you want to break it down further and more accurately.....

you take the gas price and DIVIDE it by the efficiency of the gas appliance (in my case $.33 times .90 (90%) and I get $.366). 

you take the of the pellet cost and DIVIDE it by the pellet stove efficiency (if it's $200 ton and the output efficiency is 80% then it's $250 per ton).  

So now let's see how it compares in my situation.....

The effective price of ngas per m3 after my furnace has converted it to actual output is $.366. Divide that by 4 to reach equivalent BTU in pellets  and it's $183.33 per ton. To compare it to pellets heaters net BTU output, I must MULTIPLY it by the pellet heaters efficiency of 80% to come to the actual BTU output cost. Now I have to buy pellets at $146.66 per ton to break even with gas. Pellets above that price, it's not worth it, below that price, it's worth it. Then there is the big elephant in the room.....labor. 

What you really want is to focus in is how many BTU"s you are getting for your buck. 


Couple of notes, gas is VERY CHEAP right now up here because of the recession. It was a 50% higher before and if the gas companies have anything to do with it, it will be up there again.



(I'm doing this on the fly, if I have made any mistake, by all means let me know.)


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## Spartan

Nicholas440 said:
			
		

> Natural gas is cheap here in Northeast Ohio, my rate per MCF  was reduced again this past August of 2010, so my cost per MCF is only $6.72 , and thats very reasonable.   My only regret is that in hindsight I should have got the Harmon  instead of this Quadrafire Castile,  its nice, but it buzzes, rattles, vibrates, whistles, and growls at times.  I'm very disappointed in the quality of workmanship for a $3,400  stove, and the blowers are so loud I have to turn the volume way up when I watch tv.



Out of curiosity, are you simply charged by the amount of cubic feet by the set price or do they also tack on delivery charges, pipeline charges and taking thee vodka lunch charges? 

Up here, for a residence, they tell you it's 13 cents and it lands up being 33 cents after everything is added up and divided by the cubic meter. it doesn't get much better for commercial/industrial users either. 

BTW, my gas company "screwed up" my bill this month. Now how errors crop up from computerized systems and how it 's always in their favor, well,  it's a mystery.


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## XXV-AK

This is a good thread and everyone has good points. The main reason i installed a XXV in November is a emergency back up heat in the dead of winter. I live in a area with a high demand for NG and if a turbine failed in winter months or a Good Friday earthquake which would rupture gas lines my house will stay warm at -20F. It's the coastie in me "always ready".


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## checkthisout

Spartan said:
			
		

> Here is some quick numbers.....
> 
> Natural gas has 35,500 BTU per cubic meter (Canucks) and 1,020 BTU per cubic foot.
> 
> I do not know what gas prices are like in the US, but here in Ontario, it's 13 cents a m3 but by the time you add up all the sub charges and taxes, it's about 33 cents a m3.
> 
> Soo....taking Ontario figures......in the most basic calculation, assuming 8,900 BTU/pound pellets, then the pellets have to be 1/4 of the price of natural gas to beak even, or about $165 per ton NET (including delivery and taxes).
> 
> If you want to break it down further and more accurately.....
> 
> you take the gas price and DIVIDE it by the efficiency of the gas appliance (in my case $.33 times .90 (90%) and I get $.366).
> 
> you take the of the pellet cost and DIVIDE it by the pellet stove efficiency (if it's $200 ton and the output efficiency is 80% then it's $250 per ton).
> 
> So now let's see how it compares in my situation.....
> 
> The effective price of ngas per m3 after my furnace has converted it to actual output is $.366. Divide that by 4 to reach equivalent BTU in pellets  and it's $183.33 per ton. To compare it to pellets heaters net BTU output, I must MULTIPLY it by the pellet heaters efficiency of 80% to come to the actual BTU output cost. Now I have to buy pellets at $146.66 per ton to break even with gas. Pellets above that price, it's not worth it, below that price, it's worth it. Then there is the big elephant in the room.....labor.
> 
> What you really want is to focus in is how many BTU"s you are getting for your buck.
> 
> 
> Couple of notes, gas is VERY CHEAP right now up here because of the recession. It was a 50% higher before and if the gas companies have anything to do with it, it will be up there again.
> 
> 
> 
> (I'm doing this on the fly, if I have made any mistake, by all means let me know.)



I would venture to guess that the heat exchanger efficiency in a natural gas furnace far exceeds that of a pellet stove. Especially a condensing furnace.


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## lordgrinz

Something about having the gas company blow me to kingdom come, just doesn't sit well with me. I refuse to put anything like natural gas or propane in my home, I have seen too many horror stories to take the chance, just to save a buck. I find the pellets to be a good trade off of savings to safety, I'll stick with the pellets.


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## Greg M

Spartan said:
			
		

> Here is some quick numbers.....
> 
> Natural gas has 35,500 BTU per cubic meter (Canucks) and 1,020 BTU per cubic foot.
> 
> I do not know what gas prices are like in the US, but here in Ontario, it's 13 cents a m3 but by the time you add up all the sub charges and taxes, it's about 33 cents a m3.
> 
> Soo....taking Ontario figures......in the most basic calculation, assuming 8,900 BTU/pound pellets, then the pellets have to be 1/4 of the price of natural gas to beak even, or about $165 per ton NET (including delivery and taxes).
> 
> If you want to break it down further and more accurately.....
> 
> you take the gas price and DIVIDE it by the efficiency of the gas appliance (in my case $.33 times .90 (90%) and I get $.366).
> 
> you take the of the pellet cost and DIVIDE it by the pellet stove efficiency (if it's $200 ton and the output efficiency is 80% then it's $250 per ton).
> 
> So now let's see how it compares in my situation.....
> 
> The effective price of ngas per m3 after my furnace has converted it to actual output is $.366. Divide that by 4 to reach equivalent BTU in pellets  and it's $183.33 per ton. To compare it to pellets heaters net BTU output, I must MULTIPLY it by the pellet heaters efficiency of 80% to come to the actual BTU output cost. Now I have to buy pellets at $146.66 per ton to break even with gas. Pellets above that price, it's not worth it, below that price, it's worth it. Then there is the big elephant in the room.....labor.
> 
> What you really want is to focus in is how many BTU"s you are getting for your buck.
> 
> 
> Couple of notes, gas is VERY CHEAP right now up here because of the recession. It was a 50% higher before and if the gas companies have anything to do with it, it will be up there again.
> 
> 
> 
> (I'm doing this on the fly, if I have made any mistake, by all means let me know.)



If I calculated it right I've got you at 92 cents US per therm.  Using 16.5 million BTUs per ton for pellets my calculation comes to a price of $133.19 CAD per ton for it to equal your NG price


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## Greg M

lordgrinz said:
			
		

> Something about having the gas company blow me to kingdom come, just doesn't sit well with me. I refuse to put anything like natural gas or propane in my home, I have seen too many horror stories to take the chance, just to save a buck. I find the pellets to be a good trade off of savings to safety, I'll stick with the pellets.



This simply isn't true.  From a safety standpoint I'd much rather have NG then any form of wood burning inside my home.  Now if the NG wasn't installed properly then that's another story but the risk of carbon monoxide is greater then that of an explosion.  

Do you know that there are far more fires from electricity then explosions from NG?  NG is not easily ignited.  It requires just the right mixer of air for it to ignite.  Too much air or too much gas and it won't ignite.  If I remember correctly (it's been years since I had this in class) it's something like 8-15% gas.

Have a professional install and maintain your NG furnace and you won't have to worry about it at all.  You're far more likely to die in your car then you are from a NG explosion.


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## lordgrinz

Greg M said:
			
		

> lordgrinz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Something about having the gas company blow me to kingdom come, just doesn't sit well with me. I refuse to put anything like natural gas or propane in my home, I have seen too many horror stories to take the chance, just to save a buck. I find the pellets to be a good trade off of savings to safety, I'll stick with the pellets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This simply isn't true.  From a safety standpoint I'd much rather have NG then any form of wood burning inside my home.  Now if the NG wasn't installed properly then that's another story but the risk of carbon monoxide is greater then that of an explosion.
> 
> Do you know that there are far more fires from electricity then explosions from NG?  NG is not easily ignited.  It requires just the right mixer of air for it to ignite.  Too much air or too much gas and it won't ignite.  If I remember correctly (it's been years since I had this in class) it's something like 8-15% gas.
> 
> Have a professional install and maintain your NG furnace and you won't have to worry about it at all.  You're far more likely to die in your car then you are from a NG explosion.
Click to expand...


Tell this to the people who's homes were demolished(Exploded!) or killed in the Boston area from leaks in the system, sorry buddy.......gas is explosive, I am not about to take a chance like that, I would rather put my life in my own hands, then that of a company who's hell bent on profits over human life.


----------



## Greg M

lordgrinz said:
			
		

> Greg M said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lordgrinz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Something about having the gas company blow me to kingdom come, just doesn't sit well with me. I refuse to put anything like natural gas or propane in my home, I have seen too many horror stories to take the chance, just to save a buck. I find the pellets to be a good trade off of savings to safety, I'll stick with the pellets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This simply isn't true.  From a safety standpoint I'd much rather have NG then any form of wood burning inside my home.  Now if the NG wasn't installed properly then that's another story but the risk of carbon monoxide is greater then that of an explosion.
> 
> Do you know that there are far more fires from electricity then explosions from NG?  NG is not easily ignited.  It requires just the right mixer of air for it to ignite.  Too much air or too much gas and it won't ignite.  If I remember correctly (it's been years since I had this in class) it's something like 8-15% gas.
> 
> Have a professional install and maintain your NG furnace and you won't have to worry about it at all.  You're far more likely to die in your car then you are from a NG explosion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Tell this to the people who's homes were demolished(Exploded!) or killed in the Boston area from leaks in the system, sorry buddy.......gas is explosive, I am not about to take a chance like that, I would rather put my life in my own hands, then that of a company who's hell bent on profits over human life.
Click to expand...


Far more homes are destroyed and more people are killed by fires that started from wood products being burned in the home.  You're making an irrational decision based on emotion instead of based on facts.  Do accidents happen?  Of coarse and sometimes they happen from neglect but the statistical risk of your fear is very small.  

You sound like the people who won't fly because there's a chance that the plane might go down but then they'll jump in their car and drive around town.  The risk of death from flying is far smaller then the risk of death from driving but many people make decisions based on emotions instead of logic.


----------



## lordgrinz

Greg M said:
			
		

> lordgrinz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Greg M said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lordgrinz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Something about having the gas company blow me to kingdom come, just doesn't sit well with me. I refuse to put anything like natural gas or propane in my home, I have seen too many horror stories to take the chance, just to save a buck. I find the pellets to be a good trade off of savings to safety, I'll stick with the pellets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This simply isn't true.  From a safety standpoint I'd much rather have NG then any form of wood burning inside my home.  Now if the NG wasn't installed properly then that's another story but the risk of carbon monoxide is greater then that of an explosion.
> 
> Do you know that there are far more fires from electricity then explosions from NG?  NG is not easily ignited.  It requires just the right mixer of air for it to ignite.  Too much air or too much gas and it won't ignite.  If I remember correctly (it's been years since I had this in class) it's something like 8-15% gas.
> 
> Have a professional install and maintain your NG furnace and you won't have to worry about it at all.  You're far more likely to die in your car then you are from a NG explosion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Tell this to the people who's homes were demolished(Exploded!) or killed in the Boston area from leaks in the system, sorry buddy.......gas is explosive, I am not about to take a chance like that, I would rather put my life in my own hands, then that of a company who's hell bent on profits over human life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Far more homes are destroyed and more people are killed by fires that started from wood products being burned in the home.  You're making an irrational decision based on emotion instead of based on facts.  Do accidents happen?  Of coarse and sometimes they happen from neglect but the statistical risk of your fear is very small.
> 
> You sound like the people who won't fly because there's a chance that the plane might go down but then they'll jump in their car and drive around town.  The risk of death from flying is far smaller then the risk of death from driving but many people make decisions based on emotions instead of logic.
Click to expand...


You keep missing the point, either you trust yourself, or you trust the NG company delivering explosive gas to your home with only profit in mind, not your safety. I don't care how someone else decides to keep up maintenance on their stove, electric, etc ......but I do have control over my maintenance of systems in my home, I give up that right when I choose NG, I'll stick with pellets for now, much safer and I trust the guy taking care of upkeep!


----------



## Greg M

lordgrinz said:
			
		

> Greg M said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lordgrinz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Greg M said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lordgrinz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Something about having the gas company blow me to kingdom come, just doesn't sit well with me. I refuse to put anything like natural gas or propane in my home, I have seen too many horror stories to take the chance, just to save a buck. I find the pellets to be a good trade off of savings to safety, I'll stick with the pellets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This simply isn't true.  From a safety standpoint I'd much rather have NG then any form of wood burning inside my home.  Now if the NG wasn't installed properly then that's another story but the risk of carbon monoxide is greater then that of an explosion.
> 
> Do you know that there are far more fires from electricity then explosions from NG?  NG is not easily ignited.  It requires just the right mixer of air for it to ignite.  Too much air or too much gas and it won't ignite.  If I remember correctly (it's been years since I had this in class) it's something like 8-15% gas.
> 
> Have a professional install and maintain your NG furnace and you won't have to worry about it at all.  You're far more likely to die in your car then you are from a NG explosion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Tell this to the people who's homes were demolished(Exploded!) or killed in the Boston area from leaks in the system, sorry buddy.......gas is explosive, I am not about to take a chance like that, I would rather put my life in my own hands, then that of a company who's hell bent on profits over human life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Far more homes are destroyed and more people are killed by fires that started from wood products being burned in the home.  You're making an irrational decision based on emotion instead of based on facts.  Do accidents happen?  Of coarse and sometimes they happen from neglect but the statistical risk of your fear is very small.
> 
> You sound like the people who won't fly because there's a chance that the plane might go down but then they'll jump in their car and drive around town.  The risk of death from flying is far smaller then the risk of death from driving but many people make decisions based on emotions instead of logic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You keep missing the point, either you trust yourself, or you trust the NG company delivering explosive gas to your home with only profit in mind, not your safety. I don't care how someone else decides to keep up maintenance on their stove, electric, etc ......but I do have control over my maintenance of systems in my home, I give up that right when I choose NG, I'll stick with pellets for now, much safer and I trust the guy taking care of upkeep!
Click to expand...


Last response:
I'm not missing the point.  Mistakes happen but I'm not going to make an emotional decision and condemn a whole industry because of something bad that happened.  What you're referring to is the exception rather then the rule.

I have a very good friend who works for the local gas company and I know how serious they take safety.  Even the hint of an order and they respond immediately 24/7.

You talk about trust.  Do you have electricity?  A problem on the grid could cause a surge that could cause a fire in your home not to mention other problems.  Do you have city water?  Contamination of your water could affect your health or even cause your death.  Have you ever seen the inside of the pipes that your drinking water flows through?  There're disgusting.

Do you go out to eat?  How about the stories of what goes on in kitchens across the country.  Do you buy food or medicine in the store?  How about the tainted Tylenol years ago? Do you drive on the roads?  You're trusting your life to every driver that you pass on the road.

You trust people and companies everyday with your life.  Your fear of NG is a fear based on emotion, not facts.


----------



## lordgrinz

Greg M said:
			
		

> lordgrinz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Greg M said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lordgrinz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Greg M said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lordgrinz" date="1294943483 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Something about having the gas company blow me to kingdom come, just doesn't sit well with me. I refuse to put anything like natural gas or propane in my home, I have seen too many horror stories to take the chance, just to save a buck. I find the pellets to be a good trade off of savings to safety, I'll stick with the pellets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This simply isn't true.  From a safety standpoint I'd much rather have NG then any form of wood burning inside my home.  Now if the NG wasn't installed properly then that's another story but the risk of carbon monoxide is greater then that of an explosion.
> 
> Do you know that there are far more fires from electricity then explosions from NG?  NG is not easily ignited.  It requires just the right mixer of air for it to ignite.  Too much air or too much gas and it won't ignite.  If I remember correctly (it's been years since I had this in class) it's something like 8-15% gas.
> 
> Have a professional install and maintain your NG furnace and you won't have to worry about it at all.  You're far more likely to die in your car then you are from a NG explosion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Tell this to the people who's homes were demolished(Exploded!) or killed in the Boston area from leaks in the system, sorry buddy.......gas is explosive, I am not about to take a chance like that, I would rather put my life in my own hands, then that of a company who's hell bent on profits over human life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Far more homes are destroyed and more people are killed by fires that started from wood products being burned in the home.  You're making an irrational decision based on emotion instead of based on facts.  Do accidents happen?  Of coarse and sometimes they happen from neglect but the statistical risk of your fear is very small.
> 
> You sound like the people who won't fly because there's a chance that the plane might go down but then they'll jump in their car and drive around town.  The risk of death from flying is far smaller then the risk of death from driving but many people make decisions based on emotions instead of logic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You keep missing the point, either you trust yourself, or you trust the NG company delivering explosive gas to your home with only profit in mind, not your safety. I don't care how someone else decides to keep up maintenance on their stove, electric, etc ......but I do have control over my maintenance of systems in my home, I give up that right when I choose NG, I'll stick with pellets for now, much safer and I trust the guy taking care of upkeep!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Last response:
> I'm not missing the point.  Mistakes happen but I'm not going to make an emotional decision and condemn a whole industry because of something bad that happened.  What you're referring to is the exception rather then the rule.
> 
> I have a very good friend who works for the local gas company and I know how serious they take safety.  Even the hint of an order and they respond immediately 24/7.
> 
> You talk about trust.  Do you have electricity?  A problem on the grid could cause a surge that could cause a fire in your home not to mention other problems.  Do you have city water?  Contamination of your water could affect your health or even cause your death.  Have you ever seen the inside of the pipes that your drinking water flows through?  There're disgusting.
> 
> Do you go out to eat?  How about the stories of what goes on in kitchens across the country.  Do you buy food or medicine in the store?  How about the tainted Tylenol years ago? Do you drive on the roads?  You're trusting your life to every driver that you pass on the road.
> 
> You trust people and companies everyday with your life.  Your fear of NG is a fear based on emotion, not facts.
Click to expand...


Water I have under control, I don't drink water from the tap, ever! Electricity isn't going to level my home in one blast, I do have fire alarms and CO detectors, so I am OK there, I'll have a chance at getting out of my house beforehand. Plus with almost everything you are stating, I have a choice, with NG you have one choice! There isn't multiple suppliers to your house, just one, and they decide everything! I can choose what airline, I can choose what meds, I can choose what food, I can choose what water, I can choose less dangerous roads to drive on or better times to drive, etc......NG? Nope, one supplier who decides your fate.....Not interested.


----------



## webbie

Mike49024 said:
			
		

> So bummed...
> 
> I put in my pellet stove insert last month (p35i) in my raised ranch home (1700sq ft heating floor) hoping to drop my natural gas heating costs.
> 
> On weekdays I run it when I get home from work til I go to bed 4pm-midnight and from 9am to midnight on the weekends.  When the stove runs, the furnace does not.
> :down:



In a general sense, Pellets will not save much money (if at all) over Nat Gas prices on much of the country.

Using the calculator at:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/fuel_cost_comparison_calculator/

you can see the basic fuel prices are close.


----------



## lordgrinz

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Mike49024 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So bummed...
> 
> I put in my pellet stove insert last month (p35i) in my raised ranch home (1700sq ft heating floor) hoping to drop my natural gas heating costs.
> 
> On weekdays I run it when I get home from work til I go to bed 4pm-midnight and from 9am to midnight on the weekends.  When the stove runs, the furnace does not.
> :down:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In a general sense, Pellets will not save much money (if at all) over Nat Gas prices on much of the country.
> 
> Using the calculator at:
> https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/fuel_cost_comparison_calculator/
> 
> you can see the basic fuel prices are close.
Click to expand...


Thank you for the link  , I see the Pellet efficiency is at 70% is that typical, I thought it was closer to 80%?


----------



## webbie

I really doubt that the average Pellet stove out there has an AFUE higher than 70%......many years ago, they did an "in the field" test of the first generation of Pellet Stoves - these were advertised at 80% plus efficiency. The results came in from 45% to 72%. 

Some Pellets stoves have come a long way since then...but some have not. I say that 70% is probably in the realm.

Newer gas furnaces are tested at 84-92%.....so I think the comparison is fair in the calculator. Of course, if you are the wishful thinking type, you can edit the numbers in the forum before you submit it!


----------



## lordgrinz

Webmaster said:
			
		

> I really doubt that the average Pellet stove out there has an AFUE higher than 70%......many years ago, they did an "in the field" test of the first generation of Pellet Stoves - these were advertised at 80% plus efficiency. The results came in from 45% to 72%.
> 
> Some Pellets stoves have come a long way since then...but some have not. I say that 70% is probably in the realm.
> 
> Newer gas furnaces are tested at 84-92%.....so I think the comparison is fair in the calculator. Of course, if you are the wishful thinking type, you can edit the numbers in the forum before you submit it!



I'd be interested in an in field test of newer units, or at least my XXV ;-)


----------



## webbie

I'm not a highly technical person, but a lot of the problem in the early units was "excess air"......which I think means that the combustion air flow through the units is very difficult to control perfectly in all ranges of heating.

The highest efficiency, as we would imagine, came from a Quadrafire (back when) which only burned on one setting - very high - and turned off and on to achieve the desired heat output. 

Sorry to say, but the worst efficiency came in from a bottom fed unit (Earth Stove).......

70% is probably safe...or maybe even high considering all the various brands, types and installs.

As a comparison - nofossil, and engineer, has tested his super-high efficiency gasification boiler and system and came in with a less than 60% total efficiency.......

I don't think you will see a valid field test for the obvious reasons.....although Canada may eventually come through!

If you look, for instance, at their gas fireplace tests and ratings:
http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/residential/business/manufacturers/search/fireplace-search.cfm?attr=4
You will see that fireplaces advertised as MUCH higher tend to come in at 40-70% total.

So, as with everything from sales pitches to EPA mpg labels, let the buyer beware (or round down)


----------



## chris288

lordgrinz said:
			
		

> Webmaster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I really doubt that the average Pellet stove out there has an AFUE higher than 70%......many years ago, they did an "in the field" test of the first generation of Pellet Stoves - these were advertised at 80% plus efficiency. The results came in from 45% to 72%.
> 
> Some Pellets stoves have come a long way since then...but some have not. I say that 70% is probably in the realm.
> 
> Newer gas furnaces are tested at 84-92%.....so I think the comparison is fair in the calculator. Of course, if you are the wishful thinking type, you can edit the numbers in the forum before you submit it!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd be interested in an in field test of newer units, or at least my XXV ;-)
Click to expand...


I dont know how much money I'd put on it, but I'd be willing to bet my 14 year old Whitfield was more effecient than my new XXV. Dont get me wrong, we love the XXV but I don't think it does as well extracting every btu possible from a lb of pellets. I used to be able to hold my hand on the vent of the whitfield, the xxv vent is quite a bit hotter so I feel I'm losing more heat out the vent with the new stove.


----------



## Spartan

Greg M said:
			
		

> Spartan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is some quick numbers.....
> 
> Natural gas has 35,500 BTU per cubic meter (Canucks) and 1,020 BTU per cubic foot.
> 
> I do not know what gas prices are like in the US, but here in Ontario, it's 13 cents a m3 but by the time you add up all the sub charges and taxes, it's about 33 cents a m3.
> 
> Soo....taking Ontario figures......in the most basic calculation, assuming 8,900 BTU/pound pellets, then the pellets have to be 1/4 of the price of natural gas to beak even, or about *$165 per ton *NET (including delivery and taxes).
> 
> If you want to break it down further and more accurately.....
> 
> you take the gas price and DIVIDE it by the efficiency of the gas appliance (in my case $.33 times .90 (90%) and I get $.366).
> 
> you take the of the pellet cost and DIVIDE it by the pellet stove efficiency (if it's $200 ton and the output efficiency is 80% then it's $250 per ton).
> 
> So now let's see how it compares in my situation.....
> 
> The effective price of ngas per m3 after my furnace has converted it to actual output is $.366. Divide that by 4 to reach equivalent BTU in pellets  and it's $183.33 per ton. To compare it to pellets heaters net BTU output, I must MULTIPLY it by the pellet heaters efficiency of 80% to come to the actual BTU output cost. Now I have to buy pellets at *$146.66* per ton to break even with gas. Pellets above that price, it's not worth it, below that price, it's worth it. Then there is the big elephant in the room.....labor.
> 
> What you really want is to focus in is how many BTU"s you are getting for your buck.
> 
> 
> Couple of notes, gas is VERY CHEAP right now up here because of the recession. It was a 50% higher before and if the gas companies have anything to do with it, it will be up there again.
> 
> 
> 
> (I'm doing this on the fly, if I have made any mistake, by all means let me know.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I calculated it right I've got you at 92 cents US per therm.  Using 16.5 million BTUs per ton for pellets my calculation comes to a price of $133.19 CAD per ton for it to equal your NG price
Click to expand...


In order to cross check my previous calculations, I'll use my original numbers. Since the US and Canadian dollar is almost at par, I wont worry about US and Canadian monopoly money. 

I therm is 100,000 BTU therefore it's 2.8169 times .33 or 93 cents.  

I ton of pellets at 8900 btu per pound is 17,800,000 btu. 

Therefore.......17,800,000 per ton divided by 100,000 per therm is 178. Times that by .93 is *$165.00 per ton*.

Further.....

93 cents per therm DIVIDED by the efficiency of a gas furnace is 93 cents divided by .9 equals $1.03. In other words, I have to pay $1.03 to get ONE therm into my house. 

Now what is the cost in ngas taking into account the ngas efficiency? 1.03 times 178 therms equals $183.00 per ton.

Now what is the pellets burners efficiency? Assuming 80% efficiency if we were to convert that into actual heat? $183 divided by .8 equals $146.40. In other words, we took $183 worth of ngas therms, shoved it into the pellet burner and got out *$146* of heat. That is the break even point.

~~~~~~~~

Where the difference lays with your calculation is....you took 16,500,000 BTU per ton. 

Therefore......16,500,000 is 165 therms times .93 is $153.45 per ton. 

$153.45 divided b .9 gives for a 90% ngas burner costs me $170.50 of actual output.

$170.50 multiplied by .8 for an 80% efficient pellet burner and I get $136.40 cents of heat. 

Not much different from your price. You took a lower value for the BTU output of your pellets therefore the ton of pellets have to be an even LOWER price them my original estimate to break even with ngas. 

Again, this is off the top of my head.


----------



## jgcable

Mike49024 said:
			
		

> So bummed...
> 
> I put in my pellet stove insert last month (p35i) in my raised ranch home (1700sq ft heating floor) hoping to drop my natural gas heating costs.
> 
> On weekdays I run it when I get home from work til I go to bed 4pm-midnight and from 9am to midnight on the weekends.  When the stove runs, the furnace does not.
> 
> I went though about a half ton over the last month (approx $100)
> 
> Got my Consumers (Electricity and natural gas) bill for the last month. $244 (14.2MCF).  Down from 295 (18.6MCF) this month last year. So it dropped $50, but I burned $100 in pellets.
> 
> Granted the living area is much warmer with the zoned heating, but the rest of the house is colder (bedrooms and for sure the basement).
> 
> Not to mention the cost of the stove.  I like my stove, but what a disappointment.
> 
> :down:




Same exact thing here. It would cost me considerably more to heat the house insufficiently with pellets then it does with natural gas. 
With pellets (and my main heating system off) I get an ice cold finished basement and a semi cold fairly uncomfortable 2nd floor. 
With natural gas fired steam radiators I get a nice uniformly heated house. 

I have come to the realization that I am forced to use my pellet stove insert as a space heater and I can't expect it to heat my entire house or help me much on my gas bill. I am ok with it now but it was disapointing at first. 

My buddy has a fairly small wood burning free standing stove with no blowers or anything in his 2 story colonial and he hasn't even turned his oil fired forced air furnace on this entire season (Connecticut) and he keeps his house in the mid 70's. His upstairs is so hot he sometimes has to open the windows.


----------



## Spartan

Webmaster said:
			
		

> I really doubt that the average Pellet stove out there has an AFUE higher than 70%......many years ago, they did an "in the field" test of the first generation of Pellet Stoves - these were advertised at 80% plus efficiency. The results came in from 45% to 72%.
> 
> Some Pellets stoves have come a long way since then...but some have not. I say that 70% is probably in the realm.
> 
> Newer gas furnaces are tested at 84-92%.....so I think the comparison is fair in the calculator. Of course, if you are the wishful thinking type, you can edit the numbers in the forum before you submit it!



It would be nice to see a standardized test. So far, I read about 100% burner efficiency and I'm not sure what the heck they are talking about. Sure, you burn all the pellets but how does that translate to how much heat comes out of it? Or goes up the chimney? 

One big hint of number fudging is the size of the fan. In order to move 75,000 BTU, my furnace has a 1500 cfm blower. A well known pellet stove insert has 160 cfm blower to move 40,000 BTU. I don't care how much radiant heat they claim comes out of it, the amount of CFM simply does not make sense. On the other hand, nobody is going to sit in their family room with a 1000 cfm fan blasting through the insert. 

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE to stick it to the oil and gas companies, but my wallet wins all the time.

Last but not least.....

The pellet stove manufacturers have jumped all over this CO2 malarkey. Ten year ago, municipalities were trying to stop wood burners because they polluted. Now they are no longer called wood burners, they are "biomass" burners and they are environmentally friendly and CO2 neutral. Bad for you then, good for you now......and some of the sheep nod.


P.S. The only reason I'm looking at pellets is to use the waste material I have.


----------



## ChrisWNY

Well, you can certainly tell with a pellet stove that a lot more heat goes up the flue than what goes out of the exhaust PVC vent of my LP furnace (which has a 92% AFUE). During combustion, the PVC vent coming from my furnace is barely even warm to the touch, whereas the PL vent from my pellet furnace is a good 120-150Â°F. It's no wonder that most pellet burner manufacturers don't disclose anything about AFUE ratings of their unit, nor do they bother to obtain such a rating (as I don't believe it's required, nor would they want it published because it would hurt sales, especially with uneducated customers). The average customer is usually not well educated on the product they are looking to buy, so they walk into a hearth shop looking for a pellet burner to replace or supplement their existing gas or oil furnace. They know their gas furnace has > 90% AFUE, then they see a 70% AFUE on a pellet stove, in most cases the sale would be lost then and there. For the educated customer, they realize the benefits of burning pellets vs. oil or gas, and the fact that a decent pellet stove or furnace can provide excellent localized heating, rather than having a 150K BTU furnace kick on to heat the entire house when the temp on the first floor drops below the thermostat threshold (which is set a temp that makes the living room comfortable, the drawback is that your bedrooms are being heated up as well when you're not even using the room).


----------



## Spartan

ChrisWNY said:
			
		

> Well, you can certainly tell with a pellet stove that a lot more heat goes up the flue than what goes out of the exhaust PVC vent of my LP furnace (which has a 92% AFUE). During combustion, the PVC vent coming from my furnace is barely even warm to the touch, whereas the PL vent from my pellet furnace is a good 120-150Â°F. It's no wonder that most pellet burner manufacturers don't disclose anything about AFUE ratings of their unit, nor do they bother to obtain such a rating (as I don't believe it's required, nor would they want it published because it would hurt sales, especially with uneducated customers). The average customer is usually not well educated on the product they are looking to buy, so they walk into a hearth shop looking for a pellet burner to replace or supplement their existing gas or oil furnace. They know their gas furnace has > 90% AFUE, then they see a 70% AFUE on a pellet stove, in most cases the sale would be lost then and there.



There would be NO sales if you add the labor into it. Nobody who uses gas can justify pellets unless they have a hang up about safety. 

You ever wonder why the EPA screams about coal and wont mandate AFUE ratings? Ever wonder why they are now "biomass" burners and not "dirty wood burners"? 

It's come to the point where politics overrides common sense and reality.


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## chris288

My house is 2 br, 1,100 sqft, single level ranch, semi open floor plan with electric heat. I use the XXV as a sole source of heat, the electric NEVER comes on, stove is at one end of the house in the living room, as you move down the house it progressively gets cooler. LR is kept ~ 71, dining room goes down to 70, kitchen 69, back of the house 68, one BR closed off and the MB is usually around 66 but is fine for sleeping. Been burning pellets for 14 years, I certainly know if I had a 2 story or a larger house and tried heating with pellets that some parts of the house aren't going to be heated very well and in some cases down right cold and would need to be supplemented with some other kind of heating source.


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## RiddleMasterMorgon

I would suggest to google here and use their excell file to compare heat sources:

www.eia.doe.gov/neic/experts

This seems to me the most accurate list I have seen,  confirms my own tests in my house. Electricity/Oil/Propane are the higest costs to heat, Wood Pellets, Corn, Wood is second and Coal/Natural Gas the cheapest. There are some exceptions such as geothermal - but quite expensive in the initial investment. Of course regional influence is possible and the design of your house plays into it as well. If you have an open floor plan Wood Pellet Stove works bit better for you, if you try real zone heating with electricity its not as bad ect. If you want to dream a little bit, go geothermal with radiant floor heat and get the electricity you need for the pump from solar cells and wind energy (completly ignore initial install costs for a second).

For my area and at this time the wood pellets are about equal cost to heat my house than oil is (most people don't want to hear that). If the oil price goes above 4 USD/gallon the coin flipps - and that will not be too far away. For natural gas the cost will likely be stable for some years to come IMO. There is a hype around wood pellets that is quite irrational when it comes to the question of what heats my house for minimal buck. That said there also is the argument of 'green' and 'oil independance' - for some thats an argument, for others its not.


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## Countryboymo

My Castile that is sitting in my basement won't heat the house without the heat pump or heat strips helping but I didn't buy it solely for that purpose.  I have a 15 seer heat pump and staged heat strips so I only really 'save' money running the pellet stove if it gets below 20 degrees.  If the power goes out it and a small generator will do an incredible job keeping the basement warm and the water lines in the house from freezing.  I purchased my stove to save some on strip usage but mainly for a back up source and ambiance.  I also like to have a toasty spot to hang out when its super cold.


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## SmokeyTheBear

Riddle Master Morgon said:
			
		

> I would suggest to google here and use their excell file to compare heat sources:
> 
> www.eia.doe.gov/neic/experts
> 
> This seems to me the most accurate list I have seen,  confirms my own tests in my house. Electricity/Oil/Propane are the higest costs to heat, Wood Pellets, Corn, Wood is second and Coal/Natural Gas the cheapest. There are some exceptions such as geothermal - but quite expensive in the initial investment. Of course regional influence is possible and the design of your house plays into it as well. If you have an open floor plan Wood Pellet Stove works bit better for you, if you try real zone heating with electricity its not as bad ect. If you want to dream a little bit, go geothermal with radiant floor heat and get the electricity you need for the pump from solar cells and wind energy (completly ignore initial install costs for a second).
> 
> For my area and at this time the wood pellets are about equal cost to heat my house than oil is (most people don't want to hear that). If the oil price goes above 4 USD/gallon the coin flipps - and that will not be too far away. For natural gas the cost will likely be stable for some years to come IMO. There is a hype around wood pellets that is quite irrational when it comes to the question of what heats my house for minimal buck. That said there also is the argument of 'green' and 'oil independance' - for some thats an argument, for others its not.



Your link results in:

Directory Listing Denied
This Virtual Directory does not allow contents to be listed.


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## chris288

Riddle Master Morgon said:
			
		

> I would suggest to google here and use their excell file to compare heat sources:
> 
> www.eia.doe.gov/neic/experts
> 
> This seems to me the most accurate list I have seen,  confirms my own tests in my house. Electricity/Oil/Propane are the higest costs to heat, Wood Pellets, Corn, Wood is second and Coal/Natural Gas the cheapest. There are some exceptions such as geothermal - but quite expensive in the initial investment. Of course regional influence is possible and the design of your house plays into it as well. If you have an open floor plan Wood Pellet Stove works bit better for you, if you try real zone heating with electricity its not as bad ect. If you want to dream a little bit, go geothermal with radiant floor heat and get the electricity you need for the pump from solar cells and wind energy (completly ignore initial install costs for a second).
> 
> For my area and at this time the wood pellets are about equal cost to heat my house than oil is (most people don't want to hear that). If the oil price goes above 4 USD/gallon the coin flipps - and that will not be too far away. For natural gas the cost will likely be stable for some years to come IMO. There is a hype around wood pellets that is quite irrational when it comes to the question of what heats my house for minimal buck. That said there also is the argument of 'green' and 'oil independance' - for some thats an argument, for others its not.



I heat my house on 1 40 lb bag / day costing ~ 4.00, there is no way in the world I could heat my house on 4.00 worth of oil / day, please explain your reasoning  ?


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## becasunshine

We had our pellet stove (Napoleon NPS-40) installed in late summer 2008 after a significant rate hike by our local NG supplier.  Since then, the economy has further unwound, taking energy commodity prices with it.  I understand that natural gas has been somewhat disconnected from the oil market since, apparently, those deposits can exist and/or be harvested separately from retrievable oil deposits, and that there is, apparently, an abundance of NG in the U.S. and Canada.

Not long after we bought our pellet stove, we heard that our local NG provider signed some sort of long term agreement with a regional provider, thus supposedly insuring reasonable NG prices over the long horizon.  This was after the rate hike, and I have a hard time keeping track of everything that happened in that short period of time.  I do remember that  I was kicking myself for the pellet stove/pellet purchase until we received the next NG bill, which included our budget billing amount for the upcoming winter season.

Even though NG prices were depressed, and our provider had signed onto this cost-saving agreement with the regional provider, our monthly budget billing amount jumped by $25/month.  I know that doesn't sound like a lot of money, but $25/month was a 33% jump in our budget billing amount.  Obviously we didn't have a large NG bill in the first place- but we were pretty draconian about the household temps.  We kept the HVAC thermostat set at 65'F during the day and 55'F at night.  And for this our budget billing amount goes up $25 a month for the next winter?  No thanks.  

$25/month is also a ton of pellets, and we use two tons of pellets a year.

We cancelled our budget billing arrangement and went back to standard billing, in which we are billed each month for the amount of gas we used in the preceeding month.

Our house is a circa 1958 1428 sq. ft. brick and block bungalow with a single story circular floorplan.  We rely on our pellet stove as our primary source of heat.  The pellet stove does a fine job of keeping the entire house warm when temps are in the 30's or above.  Once we hit the mid-20's we can feel the temperature gradient drop off on the side of the house that's farthest from the pellet stove.  At 20'F or below, the NG furnace cuts on once or twice a day, usually in the early morning and sometimes again in the evening, to help maintain the temperature.

Last winter and this winter have seen record cold temperatures- and we have yet to pay a NG bill for actual gas used that is as high as our proposed budget billing amount for the 2008 heating season.   And the house is warmer, to boot.  We now keep the HVAC thermostat set at 68'F during the day, 65'F at night.  The furnace cuts on maybe once or twice a day to help the stove maintain these temps if it's really, really cold outside.

The zone heating or space heating aspect of the pellet stove may help us in this regard.  Some of our older baseboard registers no longer close properly, making it difficult to shut off the heat to our spare bedroom.  We've looked into replacing the registers, but they are a different size than what is available on the shelves today.  We'd either have to have replacement registers made to order, or we'd have to splice/replace the baseboard trim around the new registers (and perhaps patch hardwood floors as well.)  All in all it's a lot easier to just shut that door and sent the pellet stove heat past that room into the rooms we are using.

Last year we paid $487 for the entire year for natural gas to heat our water and for the natural gas furnace.  We paid approximately $560 in pellets.  This equals an annual heating/hot water cost of $1047- which, if averaged over 12 months, is still less than our proposed budget billing amount for 2008.

Assuming that our budget billing amount stayed the same as it was quoted in late summer 2008, we would have paid $1200 for the year in natural gas, and we would have spent the past two years in a significantly colder house. 

Less than a $200/year savings is not a huge amount, hardly worth it.  I can't disprove a negative but I am skeptical that our budget billing amount for our natural gas bill would have remained at the 2008 amount over two of the coldest winters on record.

Three more aspects that I haven't seen anyone mention in this thread:

1. It is possible to buy pellets many months if not seasons ahead, so one can lock in today's price (for better or worse) for next season's heat.  As far as I know it's not widely possible to buy one's natural gas ahead of time.

2. If one has the ability to store pellets at home, then one knows *exactly* where one's heating fuel is located.   There's something to be said for warmth security.  

3. My cat *loves* the pellet stove.  

I realize that the rule of thumb is that natural gas costs less per BTU than pellets, but I thought this "real world" example might be worth another look.  Also, I haven't analyzed the "delivery" costs on our NG bill, nor have I looked at it closely re: taxes, fees, additional costs, etc.  Are you guys figuring in the "extra" expenses associated with natural gas in the cost per BTU?  Against that I guess I'd have to figure the cost of hauling the pellets back to our house by one means or another...


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## Spartan

becasunshine said:
			
		

> Are you guys figuring in the "extra" expenses associated with natural gas in the cost per BTU?  Against that I guess I'd have to figure the cost of hauling the pellets back to our house by one means or another...



In my two cost analysis, I used the bottom line including taxes for the ngas. I did not include taxes on the pellets because I don't know if in the US, the state/federal levels tax pellets. And if  they do, I don't know the rate. 

Up here, they tax everything and then tax the tax. They are about to introduce Eco-Sanitation and Exhaling Tax. That's where they can charge us by the breath, the flush and the content.


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## checkthisout

With Fees and all, the local utilty here charges $1.00 per therm. 

Pellets @ $187.00 a ton = Â¢.95 per therm. 

As some have stated, no way are these pellet appliances approaching the same heat exchanger efficiency as a an NG furnace even though Travis is claiming 8000 BTU's @ 1 lbs per hour for mine I just don't see how that's possible. 

Anyways, in the wholesale natural gas is waaaaaayyyyyyy cheaper but once all the fees are added in are you're about the same if not worse with the pellets. 

As far as pellets being environmentally friendly or making us oil independent, well nearly all of us are getting them from stores where they have traveled at least a few hundred miles on a big rig burning diesel at the rate of 5 MPG's. Plus wood smoke isn't the most healthy to breathe no matter how efficiently the fuel has been combusted. 

With that said I still love my stove.


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## becasunshine

Yeah, I agree on the energy consumed in making and transporting pellets.  Pellets are "green" in that we are burning what would otherwise be waste products, but in terms of energy expended and expense to produce, ship and even consume it's not a zero sum game.

Pellets aren't cheap here in central VA.  I've shopped and shopped and shopped, including pricing direct from the factory.  Factory direct is the best price, but getting the pellets home becomes the issue and the expense.  We are not equipped to accept a shrink-wrapped pallet of pellets and get it home in either of our vehicles, and as of the last time I checked, the factory isn't offering home delivery at all, even for a fee.  We'd have to rent a truck, which would mitigate our cost savings.  So far we haven't done that (yet.)  

We have to negotiate a price per ton that includes delivery, or purchase from a vendor who is local enough that it's cost-efficient and time-efficient for us to pick up several bags at a time from our "tab."  We've done a little of Column A, a little of Column B.  Since 2008, three burn seasons, our price per ton has ranged from $265/self-serve to $280/delivered.  So far, local Big Box and chain store retail vendors haven't offered prices that are any better.

I guess it's saying something for our local NG prices when $265-$280/ton for pellets is even competitive.  I *wish* I could find $187/ton here.

I'm looking at my records and I don't think I've been charged sales tax on any of my pellet purchases here in Central VA.  YMMV.

I'm kinda holding my breath to see if natural gas fueled automobiles take hold.  I suspect that if that happens, the increased strain on supply will cause natural gas home heating costs to rise.  At this moment it looks like more emphasis is being placed on electric cars.  (I will own an electric car, oh yes I will, as soon as the purchase price becomes bearable.)

All this being said, I like having several different ways to heat the house.  Right now we have a NG furnace and a pellet stove, and if all else fails (the power is out) we have a kerosene heater and a little propane heater as fall-backs.  

I'd love to have a wood stove but the layout of our house is not conducive to placing a wood stove in any of our rooms.


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## jtakeman

Checkthisout said:
			
		

> As some have stated, no way are these pellet appliances approaching the same heat exchanger efficiency as a an NG furnace even though Travis is claiming 8000 BTU's @ 1 lbs per hour for mine I just don't see how that's possible.



Most of the stove manufacturer's do that. Its not the BTU output there claiming. Its the BTU input. Deduct the stoves efficiency and you get the estimated output of the unit. Some stove manufacturer's have started to list both the input BTU's and the estimated output BTU's. Most of the other fuels appliances are the same. They rate them by input BTU's of the fuel used and you have to deduct the efficiency to get the stove/furnaces actual output. 



			
				Checkthisout said:
			
		

> As far as pellets being environmentally friendly or making us oil independent, well nearly all of us are getting them from stores where they have traveled at least a few hundred miles on a big rig burning diesel at the rate of 5 MPG's. Plus wood smoke isn't the most healthy to breathe no matter how efficiently the fuel has been combusted.
> 
> With that said I still love my stove.



Last I knew, Oil was also trucked across the region in them same trucks sucking diesel fuel. NG would be about the only thing that isn't trucked around. It's pipe right to your appliance. But I am sure you get to pay some type of fee for that! 

Pellets being environmentally friendly is mostly because there carbon neutral. Trees need CO to grow and produce oxygen. The CO they release in the combustion process is equal to what they used to grow.


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## Greg M

Checkthisout said:
			
		

> With Fees and all, the local utilty here charges $1.00 per therm.
> 
> Pellets @ $187.00 a ton = Â¢.95 per therm.
> 
> As some have stated, no way are these pellet appliances approaching the same heat exchanger efficiency as a an NG furnace even though Travis is claiming 8000 BTU's @ 1 lbs per hour for mine I just don't see how that's possible.
> 
> Anyways, in the wholesale natural gas is waaaaaayyyyyyy cheaper but once all the fees are added in are you're about the same if not worse with the pellets.



NG at $1 per therm comes out to a cost of $10 per million BTUs input, before accounting for your furnace efficiency.
Pellets at $187 per ton using 16,500,000 BTUs per ton comes out to $11.33 per million BTUs input.
How did you figure that pellets at $187 a ton come out to .95 per therm?  My figures show that you'd have to be at $156.75 per ton to equal .95 per therm.

NG furnaces far exceed pellet stoves in efficiency.
To equal the BTU output of a 90% NG furnace at $1 per therm you'd have to get pellets at $146.65 and burn them in a stove that was 80% efficient.


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## Greg M

Since this is a new house why not consider a Geothermal heat pump?  A middle of the line one would be as cheap as natural gas even if you pay .18 per kw and $1 per therm.  You would also save on air conditioning in the summer.  Yes they cost more up front but the payback is quite good.  If you're planning on living there a long time the inside unit lasts about 25 years and the outside ground loop lasts 50+ years.  A geothermal heat pump also increases your resale value.

The next house that I build for myself will have a geothermal HP.


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## ChrisWNY

Greg M said:
			
		

> NG at $1 per therm comes out to a cost of $10 per million BTUs input, before accounting for your furnace efficiency.
> Pellets at $187 per ton using 16,500,000 BTUs per ton comes out to $11.33 per million BTUs input.
> How did you figure that pellets at $187 a ton come out to .95 per therm?  My figures show that you'd have to be at $156.75 per ton to equal .95 per therm.
> 
> NG furnaces far exceed pellet stoves in efficiency.
> To equal the BTU output of a 90% NG furnace at $1 per therm you'd have to get pellets at $146.65 and burn them in a stove that was 80% efficient.



You guys are getting NG at a much cheaper cost than what we're paying in WNY. I know quite a few people in my area who run pellet stoves and also have NG for heat, and the cost of heating with pellets is substantially lower than heating with NG on a monthly basis.


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## Greg M

ChrisWNY said:
			
		

> Greg M said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NG at $1 per therm comes out to a cost of $10 per million BTUs input, before accounting for your furnace efficiency.
> Pellets at $187 per ton using 16,500,000 BTUs per ton comes out to $11.33 per million BTUs input.
> How did you figure that pellets at $187 a ton come out to .95 per therm?  My figures show that you'd have to be at $156.75 per ton to equal .95 per therm.
> 
> NG furnaces far exceed pellet stoves in efficiency.
> To equal the BTU output of a 90% NG furnace at $1 per therm you'd have to get pellets at $146.65 and burn them in a stove that was 80% efficient.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You guys are getting NG at a much cheaper cost than what we're paying in WNY. I know quite a few people in my area who run pellet stoves and also have NG for heat, and the cost of heating with pellets is substantially lower than heating with NG on a monthly basis.
Click to expand...


Numbers?


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## ChrisWNY

I don't remember exact dollar amount per ccf, I do remember ridiculous tariff and other surcharges added for tax/delivery that scaled up depending on your ccf usage - I don't have NG where I live (I'm on LP), so I'm going by what I remember being charged at my previous residence (which had NG), my NG bills would approach $150-$175 per month over the winter in a relatively small (1200 sq. ft.) but well-insulated house. A coworker of mine pays $200/month 12 months per year on balanced billing for NG, his house is roughly 2000 sq. ft. and was built in 2004, which means it has modern insulation, etc. His wife is real demanding about heat so I'm guessing he heats his house up to 75Â°F throughout the Winter, which is why his bills are high year round, he just didn't want $450-$500 NG bills to hit him over the Winter, so he spreads the cost over balanced billing.


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## checkthisout

Greg M said:
			
		

> Checkthisout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With Fees and all, the local utilty here charges $1.00 per therm.
> 
> Pellets @ $187.00 a ton = Â¢.95 per therm.
> 
> As some have stated, no way are these pellet appliances approaching the same heat exchanger efficiency as a an NG furnace even though Travis is claiming 8000 BTU's @ 1 lbs per hour for mine I just don't see how that's possible.
> 
> Anyways, in the wholesale natural gas is waaaaaayyyyyyy cheaper but once all the fees are added in are you're about the same if not worse with the pellets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NG at $1 per therm comes out to a cost of $10 per million BTUs input, before accounting for your furnace efficiency.
> Pellets at $187 per ton using 16,500,000 BTUs per ton comes out to $11.33 per million BTUs input.
> How did you figure that pellets at $187 a ton come out to .95 per therm?  My figures show that you'd have to be at $156.75 per ton to equal .95 per therm.
> 
> NG furnaces far exceed pellet stoves in efficiency.
> To equal the BTU output of a 90% NG furnace at $1 per therm you'd have to get pellets at $146.65 and burn them in a stove that was 80% efficient.
Click to expand...


Sorry, massively careless math on my part. 

I better check my pellet piping for a leak.


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