# ASME Certified Indoor Wood Boilers



## Ted Goodwin (Feb 14, 2013)

What indoor wood boilers are ASME Certified?  I live in Massachusetts which requires the ASME certification. My town has zoned out outdoor wood boilers. I'm particularly interested in wood gasification systems.
I would consider a combination oil/wood boiler, but it would have to have different chambers for each.


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## curtis (Feb 14, 2013)

You can get a ASME Econoburn boiler.


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## henfruit (Feb 14, 2013)

Ted, Are you planning on storage?


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## muncybob (Feb 14, 2013)

Wood Gun  offers the certification. When I was in the market it was an additional cost though.


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## nate379 (Feb 14, 2013)

Ted Goodwin said:


> What indoor wood boilers are ASME Certified? I live in Massachusetts which requires the ASME certification. My town has zoned out outdoor wood boilers. I'm particularly interested in wood gasification systems.
> I would consider a combination oil/wood boiler, but it would have to have different chambers for each.


 So if you have a non-ASME boiler, what happens, the cops show up?! Ahahaha


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## BoilerMan (Feb 14, 2013)

I'm guessing that it won't pass building inspection, which only will happen in new construction or a permit is pulled for the install. 

TS


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## ihookem (Feb 14, 2013)

Borrow the stamp from someone else and give the guy 20 bucks for rental. Isn't this stamp like the fire rating stamps on doors. If you ask for one they got get the sticker, put it on the sie of the door and and 20 bucks.


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## BoilerMan (Feb 14, 2013)

ihookem said:


> Borrow the stamp from someone else and give the guy 20 bucks for rental. Isn't this stamp like the fire rating stamps on doors. If you ask for one they got get the sticker, put it on the sie of the door and and 20 bucks.


 
No, it's a stamp, not a sticker.  The stamp is pressed into a strucural steel part of the vessle.  A "swap" would need cutting and welding. 

TS


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## Bret Chase (Feb 14, 2013)

ihookem said:


> Borrow the stamp from someone else and give the guy 20 bucks for rental. Isn't this stamp like the fire rating stamps on doors. If you ask for one they got get the sticker, put it on the sie of the door and and 20 bucks.


 
to get a rating sticker for a door frame... it's supposed to have a closer reinforcement plate welded in......  

I can't say that always happens though...


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## Bret Chase (Feb 14, 2013)

Taylor Sutherland said:


> No, it's a stamp, not a sticker. The stamp is pressed into a strucural steel part of the vessle. A "swap" would need cutting and welding.
> 
> TS


 
Yeah, it's struck into the vessel... which always made me wonder if the stamp could cause stress risers and be a failure point...


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## heaterman (Feb 14, 2013)

A little ASME clarification.......

ASME (American Society of Mechanical Engineers) is a whole process of certification for materials, construction and methods. Each individual part on any ASME rated boiler has been documented as to the material used, the method of making the part, the source of the part and anything else you can think of. This is true right down to the smallest nut, bolt or screw. The company has to show documentation and testing used to determine the suitability for something even as seemingly insignificant as a  little 3/4" x 2" pipe nipple.

This certification is denoted by the {H} stamp which is usually struck into a plate with along with the national board number of the pressure vessel, and riveted or pretty much permanently attached to the boiler.

It's different than the EN505 rating found on nearly all the decent quality European boilers, but I can't say it's any better.
For a process or power type boiler that runs at 150 or 500 or 900PSI, you betcha! I want to know where every last piece of that boiler came from and everything else about it. For a residential hot water boiler with a 30PSI relief and operating pressure of 12-15 or a steamer operating at mere ounces of pressure......it never made much sense to me as long as the appropriate safeties are in place.


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## mikefrommaine (Feb 15, 2013)

The empyre elite is unpressurized so it should pass code.


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## jebatty (Feb 15, 2013)

Never noticed, but are hot water heaters ASME? They can operate at 140F, maybe higher, and a whole lot more pressure than a 30 psi boiler, which more likely is at the 20 psi level.


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## ewdudley (Feb 15, 2013)

jebatty said:


> Never noticed, but are hot water heaters ASME? They can operate at 140F, maybe higher, and a whole lot more pressure than a 30 psi boiler, which more likely is at the 20 psi level.


In many jurisdictions stamping requirements do not apply to tanks smaller than 120 gallon, e.g., "10) Pressure vessels with a nominal water containing capacity of one hundred twenty (120) gallons or less for containing water under pressure, including those containing air, the compression of which serves only as a cushion.."  --http://webserver.rilin.state.ri.us/Statutes/title28/28-25/28-25-18.htm


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## Gasifier (Feb 15, 2013)

Yes, I noticed this when researching hot water heaters. Many of the large ones are 119 gallons. AHS told me that the only difference in their boilers when they are stamped or not is that an inspector has to come and inspect the process for any boilers that are to be ASME stamped. The ones that are not are still built through the same process. They have to pay for all the inspections on the welds, all parts inspected, etc. That is why it cost you an $500 for the ASME certification.


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## nrcrash (Feb 15, 2013)

Ted Goodwin said:


> What indoor wood boilers are ASME Certified? I live in Massachusetts which requires the ASME certification. My town has zoned out outdoor wood boilers. I'm particularly interested in wood gasification systems.
> I would consider a combination oil/wood boiler, but it would have to have different chambers for each.


 
I am in mass and I pulled my permit before I bought my unit.  Gave the building inspector all the documents on the unit I was using and had him approve it.  I didn't run into the problem of not having it asme certified because it never came up (sure I didn't bring it to his attention).


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## maple1 (Feb 15, 2013)

My welder has an AMSE certified shop. From what he was telling me about it, it cost him a crap load of money to get to ASME status (needed it for bidding certain things), and sounded like it had all to do with paper trails and not much to do about actual welding & construction stuff. That is, as far as what they were building goes, they didn't actually build it different, it just had to be fully documented & paper trailed with a consulting engineer involved in that.


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## Gasifier (Feb 15, 2013)

I was under the impression that the welds would sometimes be x-rayed or something. But I don't know anything about it really. I just know some welders and when they do things for things like state certifications, bridges, etc..........


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## fahmahbob (Feb 15, 2013)

All I know about it is that it cost me an extra $1000 for my Econburn to be ASME certified. Ouch.


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## heaterman (Feb 15, 2013)

jebatty said:


> Never noticed, but are hot water heaters ASME? They can operate at 140F, maybe higher, and a whole lot more pressure than a 30 psi boiler, which more likely is at the 20 psi level.


 

No they're not and that never made sense to me. Commercial sized tanks (120  gallons or over) have to be ASME rated and I think that is true for a tank that holds practically anything be it water or air. The arbitrary factor is that someone decided long ago that tanks of 119 gallons or less are not hazardous while tanks of 120 gallons are. .........go figure....... Hence, a 120 gallons pressure vessel has to be ASME while a 119 gallon does not.

Water heaters also have only two safeties, the operating aquastat and the relief valve. It baffles me why a light commercial water heater that holds 119 gallons of water and fires at 199,000 btu does not have to be certified to the same level as a tank that is 120 gallons and 200,000 btu's.
A little 70,000 btu gas boiler has to meet all the ASME specs for the vessel plus it must include several safeties that are not used on the water heater.
Doesn't make much sense until you consider the lobbying muscle that entities like the home builders association can put in front of any government or agency efforts to change the cost of a product used in nearly all homes............just sayin.....


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## mikefrommaine (Feb 15, 2013)

^^^
I know when I installed my tr-119 water heaters the manual called for a bigger safety relief valve than what you typically see on residential tanks. I forget the specs but they weren't cheap.


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## BoilerMan (Feb 15, 2013)

^^^^ Anyone here see the Mythbusters episode about the exploding electric water heater? It was a mere 30gal electric, I assume 4500watts. It did a good number on things....... something like 320 psi, they are tested to 300 and rated for 150psi so there is a 2X safety factor _*when it's new*. _

TS


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## Gasifier (Feb 15, 2013)

I am trying to remember what code was for New York State and ASME certification. Something about under four families ...... I can't remember now. Read to much chit now a days. Is that a getting older thingy?


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## PassionForFire&Water (Feb 15, 2013)

Gasifier said:


> I am trying to remember what code was for New York State and ASME certification. Something about under four families ...... I can't remember now. Read to much chit now a days. Is that a getting older thingy?


 
Here you can find all the details .... per state, Canadian province, major city
http://www.nationalboard.org/SiteDocuments/NB-370.pdf

Look for:
OBJECTS SUBJECT TO RULES FOR CONSTRUCTION AND STAMPING
All boilers and pressure vessels, except the following: ....


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## Gasifier (Feb 15, 2013)

PassionForFire&Water said:


> Here you can find all the details .... per state, Canadian province, major city
> http://www.nationalboard.org/SiteDocuments/NB-370.pdf
> Look for:
> OBJECTS SUBJECT TO RULES FOR CONSTRUCTION AND STAMPING
> All boilers and pressure vessels, except the following: ....


 
Thanks. I thought it was four families for some reason. Looks like it is fewer than six families for New York.


OBJECTS SUBJECT TO RULES FOR CONSTRUCTION AND STAMP ING
All boilers, except the following:
1. Boilers subject to inspection by inspectors of boilers under the US Department of Transportation.
2. Boilers located on farms and used solely for agricultural purposes.
3. Steam or vapor boilers operating at a gage pressure of not more than 15 psi and which are located in dwellings occupied
by fewer than six families.
4. Hot-water boilers which are located in dwellings occupied by fewer than six families.
5. Boilers subject to inspection or control of a federal agency.


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## Ted Goodwin (Feb 16, 2013)

fahmahbob said:


> All I know about it is that it cost me an extra $1000 for my Econburn to be ASME certified. Ouch.


Did you buy it directly from Econoburn or from a dealer?
I live in South Central, MA also.  Did you know of any Wood Gun dealers around our area?
Thanks.


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## fahmahbob (Feb 17, 2013)

Ted Goodwin said:


> Did you buy it directly from Econoburn or from a dealer?
> I live in South Central, MA also. Did you know of any Wood Gun dealers around our area?
> Thanks.


 
I have a friend who owns an HVAC company; I bought it through him. I'm not sure they if they retail them or not. I did not really look too deeply into Wood Gun, to be honest, though I can't remember now why that was.


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## Ted Goodwin (Feb 17, 2013)

fahmahbob said:


> I have a friend who owns an HVAC company; I bought it through him. I'm not sure they if they retail them or not. I did not really look too deeply into Wood Gun, to be honest, though I can't remember now why that was.


How often do you fill your econoburn? Has it been working out for you?
 Thanks.


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## fahmahbob (Feb 18, 2013)

Ted Goodwin said:


> How often do you fill your econoburn? Has it been working out for you?
> Thanks.


 
I can easily get away with filling 2/3 full it twice a day during the coldest weather, but it ends up idling a lot since my house is very well insulated (2500 sq ft and a lot of solar exposure, plus ~600 sq ft garage). It also heats our domestic hot water (120 gallons - 4 people). I really should have storage, and some day I will get there. With storage I'm sure one full load a day would be more than adequate. My garage and much of the living space are radiant, which is perfect for storage.

After one full year, I can say I'm very pleased with the boiler's performance so far. Once I modify the turbulators for easy removal, I'll be even happier.


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## pelletdude (Feb 18, 2013)

Ted Goodwin said:


> Did you buy it directly from Econoburn or from a dealer?
> I live in South Central, MA also. Did you know of any Wood Gun dealers around our area?
> Thanks.


The Empyre Elites are open system design and do not require storage - put a request for info on the Pro Fab site and a dealer will get in touch with you.


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## Gasifier (Feb 18, 2013)

pelletdude said:


> The Empyre Elites are open system design and do not require storage - put a request for info on the Pro Fab site and a dealer will get in touch with you.


 
You can run many boilers without storage. Even if he chose to go with an Empyre Elite. Wouldn't it still be better with storage? Every wood boiler system is better with storage. Right?


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## BoilerMan (Feb 18, 2013)

Gasifier said:


> You can run many boilers without storage. Even if he chose to go with an Empyre Elite. Wouldn't it still be better with storage? Every wood boiler system is better with storage. Right?


 
IMHO, yes gasser or not.  Storage allows wood to be consumed at "full bore" the most efficient way/ most available heat --> water possible.........at least with current tech.

TS


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## Hansson (Feb 20, 2013)

Why don't you build a open system?
http://www.baxi.se/visa_principskiss.asp?id=19
Maybe you don't need the asme stamp if you have a open system?


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## Brialin (Feb 20, 2013)

i also live in Mass. Just installed  a Vigas without any hassle.  Showed paperwork and all they were interested in was UL approved.  No one asked and I didn.t offer.  You do need the asme in Mass but it seems a lot of inspectors do no ye know about this requirement.  If you connect it unpressurized it does not require asme certification. You can then replumb to a pressurized system if you want.


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## heaterman (Feb 21, 2013)

Hansson said:


> Why don't you build a open system?
> http://www.baxi.se/visa_principskiss.asp?id=19
> Maybe you don't need the asme stamp if you have a open system?


 
ASME applies only to pressure vessels. ie. sealed systems and tanks.


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## Trex83 (Mar 20, 2013)

PassionForFire&Water said:


> Here you can find all the details .... per state, Canadian province, major city
> http://www.nationalboard.org/SiteDocuments/NB-370.pdf
> 
> Look for:
> ...


 For Ontario resident, see this guide:
An explanation of Canadian Solid Fuel Burning Regulations with a focus on Ontario - Nipissing University
"Most residential pellet stoves and boilers do not have to conform to CSA B51 specifications. CSA
B51 states that boilers with a wetted surface area less than 2.79 m2 or with a power rating of less than 30kW are exempt from the code. These appliances while exempt from CSA B51 are required to pass certain performance criteria standards established by CSA B366.1, UL 391 and ULC S627. The performances tests ensure the unit is not a fire or electrical hazard and are required by insurance companies. Stickers are placed on the unit to inform the buyer that the necessary performance tests have been passed.
"
CSA B51 refers to ASME codes.
Trex


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## mmudd (Mar 26, 2013)

Rroyal boilers are ASME certified.  Located in wisconsin 
http://www.royallfurnace.com/home-mainmenu-1.html


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## heaterman (Apr 13, 2013)

Was looking through some of these older threads and came across this one. I have to relate this experience just for the sake of information on testing and product quality.

When I went to Austria in February to visit Windhager for training on their boilers I was also able to take a tour of their factory and learn about there assembly standards for EN303-5 which is the Euro "equivalent version" of ASME.
While this is probably not the case with all the manufacturers over there, particularly those from Eastern Europe and certainly not cast iron boilers, this is what Windhager does to ensure the integrity of the pressure vessel.
The "heizkessel" in Eurospeak.

At random intervals Windhager will pull a heat exchanger/ pressure vessel off the production line and hook it up to the hydrostatic test stand. From what I understand each vessel is welded by a team of two people and their team code is etched into the vessel so it's kind of a way for the company to make sure that their teams are up to snuff so to speak. Anyway.......they will take this pressure vessel and pump it up until it fails, comes apart or is destroyed in some way. I asked at what point this usually occurs and was told that most fail at or above 20 bar which is equivalent to about 300PSI. Normal certification test pressure is about 58PSI if I recall so there is about a 5:1 margin between design test pressure and actual fail on these boilers. Normal relief pressure of 30PSI yields a 10:1 margin and at 15PSI operating pressure you have a 20:1 safety factor. Nice to know those things regardless of whether one is buying or selling as a dealer/distributor.

I certainly can't speak for all manufacturers but that is what Windhager does. I think that most of the higher quality steel boilers made in Europe are similar. For me that is plenty good but to satisfy the jurisdictions that require ASME rating, Windhager is also going to offer their equipment with the {H} stamp for additional cost.
While I can't say that the ASME rating is without merit, I will say that for most of the applications we deal with here on this forum it adds little to no value to the product.


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