# Froling wood boiler installation underway!!



## Piker

We took shipment of our new Froling Turbo 3000 wood boiler today, so I thought I would start a new thread to share the installation experiences with you all.  I actually plan on finishing the install tomorrow, but it will be several days before I can find the time to catalogue all the photos and post them on the forum.

For now, here's just a few shots of getting the boiler here, and down into the basement.  The froling comes completely dissassembled, which makes getting it moved around a little easier since you don't have to worry about scuffing the finish on the exterior panels.  

The boiler arrived here at about noon... and by 3:00 pm we had everything unloaded, and the boiler in the basement... we've moved quite a few boilers like this into basements before, so we've got the hang of it by now. 

Enjoy the pictures, and feel free to ask any questions.  

Cheers


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## pybyr

...drool...


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## stee6043

My first thought is that you're moving too darn fast and my second thought is that I don't see any empty beer cans in these photos?

Man....I think it took me an hour and a half just to get my boiler off my trailer.  Clearly you've done this before!  Nice looking unit.  I can't wait to see more photos of your setup...


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## Singed Eyebrows

Can't wait to read about your install. It appears you are installing this yourself, did you need to be certified or are the restrictions being eased some?, Randy


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## wantstoburnwood

Gee Duane that looks like way too much fun. I look forward to seeing your install photos.


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## Piker

Singed Eyebrows,

To answer your question, I AM a BioHeat dealer... this boiler, like the last one we were using, is installed in our home for personal use but also used to demo the product and our workmanship. 

So, saturday went pretty well.  We got a late start yesterday, so it was pretty late by the time we were all finished, but the Froling is in!!  I've got a few things to put the finishing touches on, (not to mention clean up the ungodly mess we left in the basement) but the boiler is operational. I won't go into much detail today because of time constraints;  I want to catalogue the whole process from start to finish, and I'm just plain beat today.  Heading out for some R & R with the family.

I will say this... this boiler's operation is as smooth as it's exterior looks.  Very quite... insanely fast to get lit and up to temperature, no smoke rollout whatsoever from the loading door, and seemingly effortless charging of the thermal storage tanks.  This is going to be a blast.  Kind of makes me wish there was more of winter left.  

More pics over the next few days.  

cheers


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## flyingcow

Congrats, look forward to pics.


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## Singed Eyebrows

Piker said:
			
		

> Singed Eyebrows,
> 
> To answer your question, I AM a BioHeat dealer... this boiler, like the last one we were using, is installed in our home for personal use but also used to demo the product and our workmanship.
> 
> So, saturday went pretty well.  We got a late start yesterday, so it was pretty late by the time we were all finished, but the Froling is in!!  I've got a few things to put the finishing touches on, (not to mention clean up the ungodly mess we left in the basement) but the boiler is operational. I won't go into much detail today because of time constraints;  I want to catalogue the whole process from start to finish, and I'm just plain beat today.  Heading out for some R & R with the family.
> 
> I will say this... this boiler's operation is as smooth as it's exterior looks.  Very quite... insanely fast to get lit and up to temperature, no smoke rollout whatsoever from the loading door, and seemingly effortless charging of the thermal storage tanks.  This is going to be a blast.  Kind of makes me wish there was more of winter left.
> 
> More pics over the next few days.
> 
> cheers


 It sounds as good as everything I've heard about it. Sure wish I owned one, Randy


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## Piker

We've moved quite a few gasifiers into basements over the past couple of years... but tonight was the first time to take one out.  We finally got around to pulling the old one out this afternoon.  All I will say is that there were several come-alongs, chains, a skid loader, and a tractor involved... and that I hope I never have to do it again.

So, I've got a few minutes this evening to catalogue a couple shots of installing the new Froling FHG.  I'll start with the assembly of the boiler itself, and do my best to describe what's going on.  One thing that sticks in my mind about the boiler assembly is that quality control must be doing a pretty decent job at Froling, because all the pieces fit together seamlessly.  

As noted earlier, the boiler comes as a bare vessel with all three doors attached.  The doors seem well built, and the handles have a nice rugged feel while offering a simple and sleek design.  The doors come attached on the right hand side, but can easily be switched over for anyone requiring a left-handed hinge.

These first shots are of the primary/secondary air channels along the sides of the boiler vessel, and the pneumatic rods that control the butterfly flaps which will ultimately meter the incoming air volume.  While primary and secondary air are drawn from both sides, the actuators which control them can be mounted on either side of the boiler.  The first two pics are of the non-actuator side of the primary/secondary air channels, one open, one closed.  The third picture is of the actuator side where you can see the braces have been installed to hold the actuators.

more pics in the next post


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## Piker

Note the stays in the pictures above.  This is called quilting... instead of a bolt that runs through the vessel and welded on both the inner and outer walls, the inner wall remains solid, while the outer wallis formed into a cone shape to actually touch the inner wall.  The hole punched in the center of the cone is used to weld the outer vessel wall to the inner vessel wall... one less weld to fail, and extremely strong.

cheers.


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## Piker

These shots are of the heat exchanger and the turbulator mechanism.  The Froling has a total of 10 2" heat exchanger tubes with turbulators in each one.  This is significantly more heat exchange than I am used to, and one of the reasons why the Froling never sees stack temps higher than 475°... I have yet to witness stack temps higher than 375°, and for most of the burn seem to hover around 300.

Later I will post pictures of the heat exchanger access door... from the perspective of a person doing service on one of these boilers, the ease of access to the heat exchanger is definitely a bonus.  But that's for a post later on.

The first 3 shots here are of the turbulators and the hanger they are installed on.  They are obviously outside of the boiler in these pictures.  Note the split diameter clamp that will be used to fix this mechanism to the shaker handle later on.  It's a quick way to make the connection, and provides an extremely tight and reliable grip.  

The 4th shot is of the turbulator assembly as it sit's inside the heat exchanger.  On the left you can see the hole to the chamber where the draft induction fan will be mounted.


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## Piker

That's going to be all for tonight...  The next time I post, I'll have pictures of the completely assembled Froling.  From there we'll go into our piping and of course, controls... which the Froling takes care of for you (the controls, not the piping).    Once we get caught up I'm going to start crunching numbers on output to our thermal storage tanks, etc... just from the little bit I have seen thus far, I am sincerely impressed, especially considering how quietly and seemingly effortlessly this unit operates... 

Cheers


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## tom in maine

Thanks for the photos, Duane.
It is an very impressive piece of hardware.

I look forward to the rest of the photos and appreciate you taking the time to get them online.


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## flyingcow

i like the looks of the turbolators. Looks to be easy to do a major cleaning. I'm assuming those will clean with a shke of the handle, but you need to take 'em out once in a while to good cleaning? Not much to actually have the ash cling to. The stack temp on the innova stays at 400, only climbs if it needs cleaning.

A lot of your description on quality and ease of putting together describes the Innova I have. It also came with the outer skins seperate, and went together very well.

The draft fan and heat exchanger area are also very similar to the Innova.


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## Piker

flyingcow said:
			
		

> i like the looks of the turbolators. Looks to be easy to do a major cleaning. I'm assuming those will clean with a shke of the handle, but you need to take 'em out once in a while to good cleaning? Not much to actually have the ash cling to. The stack temp on the innova stays at 400, only climbs if it needs cleaning.
> 
> A lot of your description on quality and ease of putting together describes the Innova I have. It also came with the outer skins seperate, and went together very well.
> 
> The draft fan and heat exchanger area are also very similar to the Innova.



You are correct on the function of the turbulators... shake the handle to remove ash... and slide them out to brush the tubes.  I'll do a post later on to cover all the steps on how to clean the heat exchanger.  Easy access makes it a simple process.

Agreed... the innova and the froling are very similar in vessel design.  Bottom chamber refractory is different, and the Froling adds the middle door for easy lighting... also another post for later on.  The biggest difference is of course the software driven controls on the Froling.  

cheers


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## TCaldwell

Randy, have you checked combustion effiency with a portable fluegas analyser on this boiler yet, sure would be curious to see the actual results


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## Piker

TCaldwell said:
			
		

> Randy, have you checked combustion effiency with a portable fluegas analyser on this boiler yet, sure would be curious to see the actual results



I'll chime in here and say that i myself have not seen any test data on efficiency aside from Froling's numbers.  My guess is that while downdraft gasifiers with static primary/secondary air settings can achieve very high combustion efficiencies at points during a burn, the Froling can achieve a higher average combustion efficiency over the course of the entire burn.  Thus far I have been experiencing output and total delivered Btu's to the storage tanks relative to the size of the fuel load unlike I have ever seen... and by a fairly significant amount.  I'll go into more detail on the numbers once I've had a chance to fine tune the system and take proper readings.  Eventually I may have to change the piping a bit to maximize performance, but that is another thread much later on.  The problem is, and I never thought I would say this... but it's too warm out, and there's not enough heat load to bring the tank temps down so I can fire the boiler to play. 

More pics coming tonight.

cheers


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## sdrobertson

Piker said:
			
		

> The problem is, and I never thought I would say this... but it's too warm out, and there's not enough heat load to bring the tank temps down so I can fire the boiler to play.
> 
> More pics coming tonight.
> 
> cheers



I can't wait for the other pictures...With it being warm out maybe you could opened all the windows and really get some fresh spring air in the house ;-)


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## Piker

Here are a few shots of assembling the side panels.  The panels come with the fiberglass insulation already in place inside the panels.  The insulation for the top of the boiler is basically just laid across the top of the vessel as seen in the photos.  The insulation on the underside of the boiler comes in a tray that you simply slide under the boiler once it's set in place.  

The second picture has a good view of the door handles.  Again, they are simple, but very effective at achieving a good positive seal. 

The last pics are of the primary and secondary actuator servos installed.  Once these are in place, trim gets installed to cover up the mounting brackets, and also a wire chase.  

The small door below the actuators is the cleanout underneath the heat exchanger.  This door, like everything else, can be installed on either the right or left hand side of the boiler.

cheers


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## Piker

This has got to be one of my favorite parts of the boiler... the draft induction fan assembly.  This motor has the look and feel of a heavy duty commercial unit...  I have rarely seen equipment like this used in residential applications.  The motor, like the rest of the boiler, runs off of 220v, so it's going to draw a few less amps and save on the electric bill too.

Not shown in these pictures is the trim ring that makes a clean edge around the motor, hiding the rear panel insulation.  

cheers


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## Piker

The first two shots are of the lambda sensor (fat), and the stack temperature sensor (skinny).  These are pretty straightforward... each with a bushing that screws into the cast iron stack adapter.  

The next shot is of the brains of the operation.  This view is with the lid off of the control, but with the shield over the sensitive components.  This boiler is installed on a dedicated 220v circuit with surge supression to keep this control unit as safe as possible.  It's a pretty sophisticated piece of hardware, relative to what you find on most wood boilers.

The following pictures are of an almost completed Froling FHG.  You will note that there are two panels missing from the top of the boiler.  Those panels will be installed in the photos of the finished installation.  You will also note that the lambda probe is hanging over the edge.  Apparently th fumes from silicone will destroy an O2 sensor if in close proximity... so I waited until the silicone that was used to seal the chimney pipe had dried before installing the lambda probe.  

The front door fit beautifully, and the color is great.  You will notice in the photo of the backside the trim ring around the induction fan motor... the Austrians thought of everything.

So there you have it... one nearly completely assembled Froling boiler... more pics of the final installation coming shortly.  You've got to admit... this is one sharp looking boiler.  

cheers


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## Piker

quick note, the box on the side of the boiler contains a relay which takes the 220v line for the storage circulator through the coil, and switches one leg of the 220 volts feeding the boiler to run our standard 110v circulators or a 110v loading unit.  pretty simple.

cheers


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## Singed Eyebrows

At $10,000 this boiler is a bargain in my opinion. Over it's 20 year? life an easy lighting boiler would be worth $2,000 to me & the Lamda controlled air another $2,000. When Bioheat/Froling gets the dealer network together this should be a player, Randy


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## stee6043

Singed Eyebrows said:
			
		

> At $10,000 this boiler is a bargain in my opinion. Over it's 20 year? life an easy lighting boiler would be worth $2,000 to me & the Lamda controlled air another $2,000. When Bioheat/Froling gets the dealer network together this should be a player, Randy



I was under the impression these units were exceeding $20k sticker price....


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## Mac-HD

Hello Piker, congrats on getting the Froling! 

I have a few friends that have the FHG and are very pleased with its performance, and plan on installing one myself this summer... 

I esp. enjoy the pictures in your write up- it shows how easy it is to set up and use such a great ' modern ' gasifier!  Froling is by far one of the most, if not the most advanced Unit on the market today- 

You're gonna love it. 

Look forward to the rest of your installation report!

M.


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## Singed Eyebrows

stee6043 said:
			
		

> Singed Eyebrows said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At $10,000 this boiler is a bargain in my opinion. Over it's 20 year? life an easy lighting boiler would be worth $2,000 to me & the Lamda controlled air another $2,000. When Bioheat/Froling gets the dealer network together this should be a player, Randy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was under the impression these units were exceeding $20k sticker price....
Click to expand...

 Bioheat posted awhile back that the price had been reduced to right around 10 grand from $12,000. Bioheat has boiler "packages" that are in the 20 grand area, Randy


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## Piker

Singed Eyebrows said:
			
		

> At $10,000 this boiler is a bargain in my opinion. Over it's 20 year? life an easy lighting boiler would be worth $2,000 to me & the Lamda controlled air another $2,000. When Bioheat/Froling gets the dealer network together this should be a player, Randy



I would not hesitate to agree with you on this issue.  Even setting aside the issue of increased efficiency over standard wood boilers or even wood gasifiers, the ease of use with this boiler is enough to justify the investment for alot of people.  The control on this boiler is completely automatic... when you open the front door, the draft fan turns on to full power.  Set your wood in the firebox,(no kindling required since the last time the Froling shut down it left a generous coal bed in the upper chamber) place one piece of newspaper in the lighting door if the coals have gone cold, and leave the lighting door open for just a couple of minutes (2 or 3), at which time you will literally have a roaring fire.  Shut the lighting door, close the outer door, and forget about the wood boiler until tomorrow.  The froling takes care of everything else.  Everything.  Draft induction along with the smoke extraction passage at the top of the firebox keeps smoke and ash from entering the home almost completely.  Like most residential wood heating equipment, you will need to remove the ash from time to time.  The ash hod that bioheat offers is a handy little box with a sliding lid that keeps the dust inside while you carry it outside... and since the draft fan will be running when you clean the boiler, you still don't have to worry about excessive ash dust escaping into the home...  almost all of it gets pulled back into the boiler.  

When I get caught up, I will to make a realitime video of lighting this boiler for our website.  You will all be astonished, I promise.  

cheers


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## Piker

Mac-HD said:
			
		

> Hello Piker, congrats on getting the Froling!
> 
> I have a few friends that have the FHG and are very pleased with its performance, and plan on installing one myself this summer...
> 
> I esp. enjoy the pictures in your write up- it shows how easy it is to set up and use such a great ' modern ' gasifier!  Froling is by far one of the most, if not the most advanced Unit on the market today-
> 
> You're gonna love it.
> 
> Look forward to the rest of your installation report!
> 
> M.



I already do love it!  

I know there are many other good products available, and I don't want to take away from their legitimate place in our free market... but as a former sales rep for a reputable gasifier company here in the states, I've had the privilege to take a birds eye view of the entire industry that most folks never get.  This boiler is at the pinnacle of everything I have seen thus far... not that I have seen everything... just that what I have seen doesn't really even come close.   A good word to describe this unit is "smooth."  If it weren't so tacky, I would have added several O's to the word smooth to accentuate it's smoothness.  From it's appearance to it's operation... it's just smooth. 

cheers

more pics coming in a couple days.


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## sparke

Quick side not on amperage - voltage - and cost.  Piker, you are correct at 220 volts you will draw less amperage.  However, the cost will not be less because when the power company figures out the bill they use a math formula that will multiply amperage X voltage used.  They get ya one way or the other...


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## Piker

sparke said:
			
		

> Quick side not on amperage - voltage - and cost.  Piker, you are correct at 220 volts you will draw less amperage.  However, the cost will not be less because when the power company figures out the bill they use a math formula that will multiply amperage X voltage used.  They get ya one way or the other...



Thanks for the correction.  This is one of those things that you've heard from so many people that you never really thought to do the math yourself.  Since the electric company charges by the watt (killowatt), and not by amps, it only stands to reason that since a watt is a watt is a watt... you get charged the same amount whether it's at twice the amperage or half the amperage.  

Always learning.

cheers.


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## Mac-HD

Piker ( or Duane ) I am curious- I thought you were an Econoburn man from what I had read here in The Boiler Forum- what made you switch to the Froling? M.


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## Chris Hoskin

just for the record:

FHG-L 20/30 is $9950.00
FHG-L 40/50 is $10,700.00

add about $1000.00 in accessories for a typical sale.

These boilers must be used with storage, the additional cost of which can vary widely.  If you purchase a turn-key boiler and thermal storage package (as most do) the total cost can approach $20k.  For example, an FHG-L 20/30 with a single 400 gallon tank (pressurized) and all accessories will sell for just under $16k and an FHG-L 40/50 with two 400 gallon tanks and all accessories will run just under $20k.

hope that clears things up.


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## djbutt

Nice pictures. Glad to hear you seem to be impressed with performance.
I'm in the process, although much slower, of installing the same boiler.

Do you think 1000 gal is enough storage?

I would like to use my system year round for heat in cold months and DHW in warm months.

My quick math assuming a few things, such as 20,000,000 BTUs per cord of mixed hardwoods, a Delta T of 50, a realistic efficiency of only 80%, and a realistic full load of 6 cu. ft of fuel.

6 cu ft of wood = 937,500 BTUs x 80% efficiency = 750,000 BTUs per load.

750,000 BTUs / 8.33 lbs per gal / 50 delta T = 1800 gals of storage to burn a full load without the house calling for heat.

It seems to me that this boiler, with it's ability to run at peak performance throughout a full burn, could easily "overrun" 1000 gal of storage.


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## djbutt

The package that BioHeat recomends includes 2 400 gallon tanks with the 50.  800 gallons  seems way to small. 

Can my numbers be that far off from reality.

I'm planning on 2000 gallons and hoping it will not be too much.


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## DaveBP

> My quick math assuming a few things, such as 20,000,000 BTUs per cord of mixed hardwoods, a Delta T of 50, a realistic efficiency of only 80%, and a realistic full load of 6 cu. ft of fuel.
> 
> 6 cu ft of wood = 937,500 BTUs x 80% efficiency = 750,000 BTUs per load.
> 
> 750,000 BTUs / 8.33 lbs per gal / 50 delta T = 1800 gals of storage to burn a full load without the house calling for heat.
> 
> It seems to me that this boiler, with it’s ability to run at peak performance throughout a full burn, could easily “overrun” 1000 gal of storage.



The delta T you can use for your storage tank calculations will depend on what kind of emitters you are using to heat the loads. A radiant floor in a well insulated house might be returning water to the boiler/storage at 90F. In that case you might really be functioning with a delta T of nearly 100F. Being able to use lower temperature water really makes a wood boiler system more convenient; maybe more efficient, too.

But regardless, there is no law that says you must fill the firebox to the top every time. This is a good argument for having a number of thermometers from top to bottom of the tank so you can get a good idea of how much heat is still left in the tank and so filling the firebox with just enough wood to top it off (and allowing for the expected house load).


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## tom in maine

The whole idea behind storage is twofold:
1. Storage is acting as a buffer that allows you to fire at maximum efficiency without overheating the house.
Sizing might solely be to prevent the system from going idle or shunting to an overheat zone. Both waste heat.
A small tank that is sized to the capacity of the firebox will solve this.
2. Storage lengthens time between firing. This is solely a function of heat load. You would determine the storage size by knowing the heat load
(including DHW) and knowing what the minimum water temperature your heat distribution system can tolerate.
Bigger is better if the house is huge and/or poorly insulated.

I suspect most "normal" (is that any of us here?) users would like to have enough storage to heat the house when we are at work and not be married to tossing wood.
Using storage is going to take up real estate in the basement or garage and always comes at a cost, whether it is sweat equity or outright purchase.

I remember being on a job once that had a Dumont Gasifier with 2- 5,000 gallon tanks of pressurized storage. And that had a solar backup.

First step is always controlling the heat load and getting the maximum usable heat out of your storage system. That Dumont customer had done neither.


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## Mac-HD

I agree with Tom, 

storage is important, but you dont want it to be too big- otherwise u have a ton of lukewarm water, or have to load the boiler too often,

it is of uttermost importance to size the storage, as well as the boiler according to the buildings needs!

As a rule of thumb, you would use 75-100 liters of storage space, per KW of boiler- that means- a 30KW ( sorry, my BTU calcs. are weak at the moment ) boiler needs approx. 2000-3000liters ( 500 - 750 gallons ) of storage.  This you can heat up easily to 75-80° C  ( you can figure that out in ° F. )

Any larger, and you have a ton of luke warm heat in your storage- which aint gonna do u any good except in the springtime!


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## Chris Hoskin

there is also the practical reality of what size tank fits in the available space, is practical to ship, what is commonly available, and, of course, cost.  We try to strike this balance with our offerings but recognize that there are some benefits to larger storage volumes as long as space and budget permits and the customer understands the implications.  Two thousand gallons is a lot of storage, but not unreasonable (especially in a high temperature heating system).


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## sdrobertson

Mac-HD said:
			
		

> I agree with Tom,
> 
> storage is important, but you dont want it to be too big- otherwise u have a ton of lukewarm water, or have to load the boiler too often,



This is true unless you can keep your storage stratified then you get allot longer between firings.  I right now have 185 degrees at the top and 115 degrees in the middle and the bottom is 105.  The trick is having enough insulation and keep the tanks from mixing.  When charging the tanks it takes multiple loads but the time between firings increases.  Its a fine line and depends on what you want to spend and how much room you have for the storage.


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## Piker

Dave B said:
			
		

> Nice pictures. Glad to hear you seem to be impressed with performance.
> I'm in the process, although much slower, of installing the same boiler.
> 
> Do you think 1000 gal is enough storage?
> 
> I would like to use my system year round for heat in cold months and DHW in warm months.
> 
> My quick math assuming a few things, such as 20,000,000 BTUs per cord of mixed hardwoods, a Delta T of 50, a realistic efficiency of only 80%, and a realistic full load of 6 cu. ft of fuel.
> 
> 6 cu ft of wood = 937,500 BTUs x 80% efficiency = 750,000 BTUs per load.
> 
> 750,000 BTUs / 8.33 lbs per gal / 50 delta T = 1800 gals of storage to burn a full load without the house calling for heat.
> 
> It seems to me that this boiler, with it's ability to run at peak performance throughout a full burn, could easily "overrun" 1000 gal of storage.



I must say that I am genuinely excited about this boiler.  Preliminary messing around has me thinking that the Froling is delivering in the neighborhood of 15% more btu's to the tanks per unit of fuel volume than our previous gasser.  To be fair, our previous unit was a reputable piece of equipment that served it's  purpose fairly well... but the Froling is just a different animal altogether.  The Austrians have taken wood gasification up a couple notches with this one.  

So far, 1000 gallons seems sufficient for my needs, though in my circumstances this boiler could handle another 500 gallons easily.  As other's have noted, it depends on what you want out of your system.  Personally, I like to size boilers and storage so that at design temps the math works out so you can get a minimum of a 12 hour cycle with no more than 8 hours worth of burn to fully load the tanks.  This yields much more favorable cycle times on "average" winter days.  

That is not to say that you have to fully load the tanks every time you fire.  Maybe with increased storage capacity it would take an evening firing followed by a first thing in the morning firing to fully load the tank... the options are limitless, and again it just depends on what you want out of your system.  

If you're usable temperature differential (delta t) is relatively small, then yes, you might want more storage.  50° of delta t will definitely not allow you to fill the loading chamber completely full with just 1000 gallons.  We're able to use water down to 120 to keep us warm here... hopefully 110 or less once we're all radiant floor... so we're looking at a 70° delta t ... someday 80°+. 

I promise I'll get pics of the the finished install up soon.  It's been busy around here lately, but I've finally gotten everything put back in order since the install... no junk or tools in the way to crowd the photos.

cheers


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## djbutt

All great points. This forum has been a great education for me.

I do feel like I'm on the right track.

Unfortunately I have hydronic forced air which needs 140 F just to kick on and really likes 160-180 to heat well, that combined with working 24 hour shifts twice a week has led me to the Froling and 2000 gallons of storage.

I will be able to isolate each of the four 500 gallon tanks with ball valves, so hopefully during the summer just heating DHW my delta T will go from 50 to closer to 100 and I could possibly switch to 1000 gallons of storage.

Sorry, not trying to hijack the post.

Back to Piker's point, I to am very excited to see the results from the Froling trials, both yours and mine.


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## Piker

As promised... pics of the final installation.

Enjoy!


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## Piker

And a few final pics of the dump zone, automag dump zone valve, loading unit, etc.  You will note that the dump zone isn't pitched or "switchbacked" to induce the best gravity flow... but we used the room we had, and it works very well.  Fin-tube is quite a pain to work with when you're trying to make it look nice for display, especially when you bought the last 4 elements at the supply house and they were all mangled.   C'est la vie.


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## Piker

And just a couple of pics of a few nice features on the FHG... the smoke extraction passage is amazingly effective at keeping smoke from rolling out and into your home, and the firebox aprons keep the runny creosote at bay that is generally a nuissance on wood boilers...  You still get a "little" bit of creosote behind the aprons, but still not very much... and you definitely don't get creosote running out of the doors and ruining the door seals.

that's all for now... I'll work on getting some numbers posted on delivered Btu's to the tanks as soon as I get a chance.  

Enjoy what's left of the weekend.

cheers


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## sparke

Piker, awesome looking project.  I am curious also as to the reasons for switching gassers.  Someone mentioned you used to have an econoburn.  Can you share the reasons for switching?  I am happy with my unit but I have suffered back problems and will need to switch boilers to something that takes smaller wood.  I always thought if I changed units I would go with a Garn style but after reading endlessly on this web site I have come to the conclusion that those style units are somewhat hard on wood consumption.  If I don't build my own unit I must say the Froling is very high on my list.  Although it will be interesting to see how the unit stands the test of time...  I would appreciate any further insight you would care to share...

Cheers.


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## Piker

sparke said:
			
		

> Piker, awesome looking project.  I am curious also as to the reasons for switching gassers.  Someone mentioned you used to have an econoburn.  Can you share the reasons for switching?  I am happy with my unit but I have suffered back problems and will need to switch boilers to something that takes smaller wood.  I always thought if I changed units I would go with a Garn style but after reading endlessly on this web site I have come to the conclusion that those style units are somewhat hard on wood consumption.  If I don't build my own unit I must say the Froiling is very high on my list.  Although it will be interesting to see how the unit stands the test of time...  I would appreciate any further insight you would care to share...
> 
> Cheers.



Switching gassers, for the most part, was a business decision.  Since we sell and install Bioheat and THermo-Control products now, it didn't make sense to continue to demo a product that we no longer carry.  

I am not all that familiar with the Garn other than seeing them at the tradeshows.  My guess is that alot of people's wood consumption issues with that unit has to do with their underground line. Even very good underground line can lose a tremendous amount of Heat to the soil. I am a big proponent of placing wood heating equipment INDOORS for that specific reason.  And the bottom line is, if you're going to heat with wood indoors, you probably want to do it as cleanly and trouble free as possible, and the froling accomplishes this (among other things) very well.

As far as the unit standing the test of time... Froling isn't a rookie at this.  I believe they build over 10,000 boilers per year,  in a beautiful and massive facility so clean that you can nearly eat off the floor... and they've been around since the early 60's to boot.  The construction of the vessel is pretty straightforward... 6mm (.236") plate, and some pretty nice looking robotic welds.  Any steel that is exposed to intense heat from either the firebox or the combustion chamber is protected on the other side with water or refractory.  I am not expecting many service issues on the control either... they use the same control platform for dozens of boiler models...  something they wouldn't likely do if it were a problematic unit.  One of the things I admire about European culture is the way they literally plan ahead in increments of lifetimes and generations.  That mindset tends to put quality at the forefront of everything they do... including the manufacturing of wood boilers.

did you steal my "cheers?"  lol

cheers!


----------



## sparke

Yes I was thinking of the controls/electronics when I mentioned "standing the test of time".  It sounds like that really isn't going to be an issue based on your response.  Very nice project, awesome boiler, well done!  I am jealous : )


----------



## Piker

sparke said:
			
		

> Yes I was thinking of the controls/electronics when I mentioned "standing the test of time".  It sounds like that really isn't going to be an issue based on your response.  Very nice project, awesome boiler, well done!  I am jealous : )



I am sincerely greatful for compliments... 

cheers.


----------



## Mac-HD

Piker, thanks for the photos, looks like a very clean installation - 

enjoy your Froling,

M.


----------



## Mac-HD

Oh, and Sparke- you dont have to worry about the controls in The Froling- they are pretty bulletproof. Most controls last the liftetime of the Boiler themselves- 

regards-


----------



## EricV

You messed this thing up big time Piker!!  That ain't my basement, you missed!!

Looks great.  I love my Tarm but these new units that draw air rather than push look really nice. 

Eric


----------



## DaveBP

Piker, could you summarize what the controls actually control? Yes, the burn obviously. But does it take input from sensors in the storage tank? From the heating loads? Are they expecting to be directly coupled to the storage tank as a hydraulic separator would be or is it expected to divide its supply water between the loads and the storage? This could be a separate 'report' thread for the idle curious if you don't like derailing your own thread. Bioheat doesn't go into much detail about this on their website.

Inquiring minds want to know.


----------



## Piker

DaveBP said:
			
		

> Piker, could you summarize what the controls actually control? Yes, the burn obviously. But does it take input from sensors in the storage tank? From the heating loads? Are they expecting to be directly coupled to the storage tank as a hydraulic separator would be or is it expected to divide its supply water between the loads and the storage? This could be a separate 'report' thread for the idle curious if you don't like derailing your own thread. Bioheat doesn't go into much detail about this on their website.
> 
> Inquiring minds want to know.



That's a good idea... summarizing a typical control scenario on a burn that is.  I will take some time to write this up prior to posting it to make sure I get everything correct.  The control definitely has alot of capabilities.

As far as piping the boiler... it's going to pipe up like any of the other gasifiers; provide some fashion of cold water return protection and some thermal storage and you're good to go.  I am a big fan of piping storage as a hydraulic seperator, (it really doesn't get any simpler) and that method works with this boiler just as the nofossil "simplest pressurized" design does.  (not much difference in how those two methods actually work from a hydronics perspective)  Bioheat also offers some fantastic piping schematics for the most common systems that you will come across.  I guess what I am getting at, is that you don't need special piping of any sort to install and operate this boiler properly... aside from a termovar or loading unit.

That's all for now... my apologies for the length of time it's taken to get this information posted, but I've just been swamped lately.  I promise to get to it all as soon as I can.  

cheers


----------



## Piker

So here's a quick synopsis of how the controls on the Froling react on a typical burn.

Lets assume the boiler has finished a load of fuel the day before, and is currently cold and in the "Off" mode.  Both primary and secondary air ports will be closed.  First of all, the boiler needs lit.  (of course)  To do this you open the outer insulating door which covers the loading door, the lighting door, and the combustion chamber door.  As soon as this door opens, the draft fan turns on at 100%, and the primary air shutter moves to fully open.  Wood is placed in the upper chamber, and some newspaper is placed just inside the lighting door.  I generally leave the lighting door cracked for just a couple of minutes (really, just a couple... 2, maybe 3) to get a good roaring fire going.  Close the lighting door, and close the outer insulating door.  

Once the outer door is closed, the boiler goes into the "Heating up" phase.  The draft inducer goes to 85%, and the air shutters begin metering primary and secondary air individually to tune the residual O2 content in the exhaust stream.  If the boiler does not reach it's minimum stack temperature within a set time frame of closing the insulating door, it assumes there is no fire present in the boiler, and goes back into "Off" mode.  Once the minimum stack temperature is reached, the boiler enters the "Heating" phase.

During the initial part of the "Heating phase," the boiler does not turn on it's thermal storage circulator.   Once the temperature of the boiler reaches 65° C it will then release the storage circ and begin sending heat to your tanks or your zones.  After the circulator circuit has been energized, the boiler then adjusts the burn conditions to maintain the user selected "Boiler Setpoint."  The default boiler setpoint setting is 85°C.  As long as the boiler temperature remains under this setpoint, the draft fan will operate at 85%.  Once the boiler reaches and begins to pass the "boiler setpoint," the draft fan will begin reducing speed in an attempt to match the boilers output with the load.  The Froling can modulate down to 50% of it's rated output while maintaining it's efficiency.  I believe the draft fan will run at around 30% or so at it's slowest speed.

I don't have to tell you how fantastic it is to be able to match output with demand.  As the storage tanks start to return warmer water to the boiler, and the delta T between the tanks and the boiler diminishes, the boiler automatically adjusts it's output to compensate.  No need to increase flow rate with a dimished Delta T... just let the control on the Froling lower the output to match flow.  Ingenious.

Towards the end of the burn, the residual O2 content in the exhaust stream will begin to rise regardless of air settings.  Once the O2 content rises above the setpoint, the boiler shuts down the draft inducer, closes both the primary and secondary air ports, and goes back into "off" mode.  At this point, the boiler still has quite a few coals inside the upper chamber and is quite certainly still warmer than the storage tanks.  To deal with this, the boiler is monitoring storage tank temperatures at top and bottom, and will compare the temperature of the bottom tank sensor with the boiler temperature.  Once the difference between the boiler termperature and the tank bottom temperature falls below a user defined amount, the boiler considers the tanks to be fully charged, and will turn off the circulator.  This process does a couple of things... A) it ensures that the residual coal bed will have ample chance to cool once the draft fan shuts off, which will prevent the production of steam inside the vessel.  B) it extracts every last btu from the boiler before shutting down.  Of course, if the boiler should for some reason go over it's maximum setpoint, the circulator will come on and stay on regardless of the differential between the tank bottom and the boiler.

Overheat due to power out is obviously handled with the standard gravity loop with a normally open zone valve.  Overheat with power on is simply a mechanical aquastat wired in parallel to the thermostat on your largest heating zone. 

All in all, this control is pretty amazing.  I'm not an engineer, so I can't speak to the requirements for developing such a unit, but the time and research invested in plotting curves for the primary and secondary air flows must have been intense of an by itself.  One of the biggest benefits of this boiler is that while the controls are quite sophisticated,   the actual operation of the boiler couldn't be any simpler.  It's actually much simpler to operate than the typical forced draft gassers... which we all know require a little expiramentation in order to glean the best results.  

I suppose that's all for now.  I don't think I missed anything regarding how the controls work... if I did I'll have to catch up on it later.  

cheers


----------



## chuck172

I wish there was an after-market kit which would enable some older gassifiers to modulate their output to satisfy the demand. It seems like a do-able modification.


----------



## Mac-HD

An aftermarket kit would be too costly- you would need the controller - lambda sensor, a variable speed fan that would adjust the burn- etc. And to install something that would cost $3-4000,- on an old boiler- just wouldnt make any sense.  That is the point when it is more cost effective to modernize- and install a new boiler. 

M.


----------



## BulldogAcres

Hi,
Love all the copper.
I have one concern about your flue. Looking at your pictures the flue looks like single wall stove pipe. When I used single wall, it had to be 30 may have been 36 inches from a combustible surface. Your flue looks very close to the ceiling and joists.


----------



## Piker

BulldogAcres said:
			
		

> Hi,
> Love all the copper.
> I have one concern about your flue. Looking at your pictures the flue looks like single wall stove pipe. When I used single wall, it had to be 30 may have been 36 inches from a combustible surface. Your flue looks very close to the ceiling and joists.



Not so... the vent pipe is simpson duravent... double wall with 6" clearance to walls, 8" clearance to ceilings.  We're good to go at about 12" to the joist.

cheers


----------



## BulldogAcres

Just never saw black double walled flue pipe. All we have around here is the double wall stainless steel. The black flue pipe is always single wall. Probably makes it easier for the county inspectors. Who gets to shine the copper pipe.


----------



## Piker

BulldogAcres said:
			
		

> Just never saw black double walled flue pipe. All we have around here is the double wall stainless steel. The black flue pipe is always single wall. Probably makes it easier for the county inspectors. Who gets to shine the copper pipe.



For everyone's information on the vent pipe we used:
http://www.duravent.com/?page=6.php

It's good stuff... stainless on the inside... aluminized steel on the outside.  
I've never really liked the look of the shiny stuff.



cheers


----------



## webie

chuck172 said:
			
		

> I wish there was an after-market kit which would enable some older gassifiers to modulate their output to satisfy the demand. It seems like a do-able modification.




I have heard of another guy using avariable speed controller on his solo to slow the combustion blower down . Not sure if this will hurt the combustion blower or not
I had another thought on this and was wondering if a guy could use a tekmar 157 control to control the combustion blower and as the delta T closes between your supply and return water temp have the tekmar slow the combustion blower down .


----------



## Piker

Just remembered something that I forgot about the control on the froling... based on storage tank temperature, it gives you a handy little graphic display on how much wood you can place in the firebox without overheating or going into slumber (idle) state.  

cool.

cheers


----------



## DaveBP

> Just remembered something that I forgot about the control on the froling… based on storage tank temperature, it gives you a handy little graphic display on how much wood you can place in the firebox without overheating or going into slumber (idle) state.



Just for yucks, what units does it use for wood to add? Pounds? Kilograms? Cubic meters!! Not face cords I betcha.


----------



## Piker

DaveBP said:
			
		

> Just remembered something that I forgot about the control on the froling… based on storage tank temperature, it gives you a handy little graphic display on how much wood you can place in the firebox without overheating or going into slumber (idle) state.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just for yucks, what units does it use for wood to add? Pounds? Kilograms? Cubic meters!! Not face cords I betcha.
Click to expand...


Basically it just recommends anywhere from a partial load of wood to a full load.  While this is a neat feature to have, you have to keep in mind all the variables involved... mainly moisture content and species.  Obviously the boiler is not weighing the fuel load or measuring it's moisture content... although perhaps one day that will be an option.   

Three days with no fire in the boiler... I'll fire it up tomorrow morning so we can keep making DHW... and perhaps take a few measurements.  I suspect the tanks will be quite cool by then... probably below 100, so any data that I get as far as btu's delivered to the tanks will be slightly skewed from normal tank cycles between 120 and 190.  So far, I haven't had to burn more than 1 full load to get about 70°+ temp rise in the system.  This is a significant increase over what we're used to... and again, this is being done with a smaller firebox.  I still have one of the other boilers here on the floor that we're warehousing for a customer... I should stuff it full of wood, and then take that same wood and put it in the Froling just to see how much difference there really is in what you can get into the respective fireboxes.  The froling has a nice square box with nothing interfering with getting a full load... the other boilers have air tubes running up the side that take up some space, so the real world difference between what you can get into each firebox might not be the same as the manufacturer's specs on volume.  

At any rate, so far so good with the new install.  One nice feature of this boiler is the insulating door on the front that covers the 3 inner doors.  We get alot less heat off of the boiler itself than we did previously... which makes warm weather firing for DHW a little more comfortable... and keeps the basement a little cooler in the winter, which should save a bit on firewood by not wasting heat where we really don't need it.  

cheers


----------



## TCaldwell

Piker, Sounds like a great boiler, do you have access to a contact that would indicate what the o2 % this boiler maintains for a setpoint, based on the lambda sensor feedback. My guess is between 7/8%. This should be readily available tech data, just curious
   thanks  tom


----------



## Piker

TCaldwell said:
			
		

> Piker, Sounds like a great boiler, do you have access to a contact that would indicate what the o2 % this boiler maintains for a setpoint, based on the lambda sensor feedback. My guess is between 7/8%. This should be readily available tech data, just curious
> thanks  tom



I believe the residual oxygen content is maintained at 9%.

I never did get around to firing the boiler today... I've had a few days off here and the kids have been taking advantage of some daddy time.  Good stuff.  Maybe tomorrow.  I think I will go all out on this one and weigh the wood and test for the average moisture content as well.  

cheers


----------



## TCaldwell

Piker, 9% residual o2, a little higher than i would have thought, a little high on the excess air but helps on keeping the hx tubes, flue and o2 sensor clean. Was this info in a tech manual, or, i am interested in reading what else they might have to offer.  thanks
  tom


----------



## Piker

TCaldwell said:
			
		

> Piker, 9% residual o2, a little higher than i would have thought, a little high on the excess air but helps on keeping the hx tubes, flue and o2 sensor clean. Was this info in a tech manual, or, i am interested in reading what else they might have to offer.  thanks
> tom



Upon further inspection of the documentation I received during training... the residual O2 content setpoint is to be 8%.  Sorry for the error... that's what I get for posting before verifying my thoughts.  I don't think the oxygen content setpoint is by any means proprietary information, nor any of the other setpoint parameters under the service menu's of the control... but I am certain there is engineering information regarding the control and it's internal functions that customers and dealers will not be made privy to.  As dealers, our training spoke to the setup, operation, and service of the controls and boiler... not so much the engineering side of things... though I find that sort of thing incredibly fascinating.

cheers


----------



## Piker

So last night I fired the boiler expecting to take measurements of boiler temp, stack temp, tank temp, o2 content, etc at hourly intervals... but guess who fell asleep at about 11:30 and failed to wake up to the hourly alarm?  I did get some very impressive numbers on delivered btu's to the tanks however.

Notes on this run:
1) I did not clean the heat exchanger prior to the test, though the tubes appeared to be quite clean except for a very thin coating of fly ash.
2) I did clean all of the ash out of the upper and lower chambers, but left a couple handfuls of dead coals in the upper chamber for easy lighting.
3) The wood load in the 7.4 cu-ft firebox weighed 173 lbs... mostly oak, hickory, and beech at around 16%-20% moisture content.
4) All of the heating zones were switched off, including dhw, for the entire burn.
5) Total system volume is around 1070 gallons... if you take into consderation the thermal mass of the steel in the tanks you can add a few more gallons... perhaps 35 gallons from the tanks... another 15 or so from the boiler... (converting lbs of steel into gallons of water with respect to specific heat)


At the beginning of the burn, the tanks were reading (top to bottom) 91/91/91/90, and the boiler was reading 73°.  40 minutes after lighting, the boiler reached 149°, at which point it energized the loading unit circuit and began to charge the tanks.  By the time I drug my tired bones out of bed this morning, the fire was gone, and the tanks were reading 187/187/186/184!!  That's between 95° and 96° temperature rise.  I was expecting about 80°, so you can imagine my suprise.  This was the first time I had ever run the system with absolutely no load whatsoever.

Now I realize that we're not really measuring boiler efficiency here...  but rather the overall efficiency of my system to transfer Btu's from the firewood into the storage tanks.  Remember that we have "loss" from the hundred and some feet of 1.5" copper that connects the boiler to the tanks, and also some minimal "loss" through the insulation on the tanks.  "Loss" is in quotations since during the heating season, nothing is really lost as the entire system is indoors.  

Now depending on what you're take is on how many btu's there are in lb of wood, the overall efficiency numbers will vary quite a bit.  
at 7000 btu's/lb system efficiency = 72%
at 7500 btu's/lb system efficiency = 67.5%
at 8000 btu's/lb system efficiency = 63%

I have seen ratings for wood as low as 6400 btu's/lb at 20% moisture content.  see here: http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/energy_conv.html  In which case system efficiency would be around 79%.

My gut tells me we are somewhere around 70%... which is very good.  Very very good.  This is an increase of 20% in system efficiency over the previous gasser we were using.  Remarkable.  

That's all for today.  Happy Easter.

Cheers


----------



## TCaldwell

Very impressive results, i was not aware the firebox could hold that much wood, maybe next time you burn with a full firebox i would be curious what the 02% is say 15 minutes into burn, 1 hr into burn and at 2 hr. This would cover the most volitale  period and represent how well the boiler can control the burn to the 8% setpoint. Also another test would be to check the 02 before you open the door at a reload, load, close door and observe the 02% , if there are oscillations and for how long before it maintains setpoint. These results would give some insight as to how well their control system algorithim is dialed in, appreciate all the postings of the install
          thanks    tom


----------



## Piker

TCaldwell said:
			
		

> Very impressive results, i was not aware the firebox could hold that much wood, maybe next time you burn with a full firebox i would be curious what the 02% is say 15 minutes into burn, 1 hr into burn and at 2 hr. This would cover the most volitale  period and represent how well the boiler can control the burn to the 8% setpoint. Also another test would be to check the 02 before you open the door at a reload, load, close door and observe the 02% , if there are oscillations and for how long before it maintains setpoint. These results would give some insight as to how well their control system algorithim is dialed in, appreciate all the postings of the install
> thanks    tom



You are very welcome for the posts, etc.  Indeed, I've never experienced results like this before.  If I hadn't had two seasons of experience and data from the other unit, and had I not taken the measurements myself on this last run, I would have been hard pressed to imagine that such results were practical to achieve with a wood boiler.  

I don't have the exact numbers that you are looking for, but I do have have the first 3 hours of the burn catalogued.

At 7:52 the boiler was lit.  
Boiler temp: 23 C (73 F)

At 8:32pm, (40 minutes after initially lighting the boiler, when storage circ was energized):
Boiler temp: 65 c (149 F)
Flu gas temp: 147 C (296 F)
O2: 7.8%
Primary air: 97%
Secondary air: 27%
Draft fan: 85%
tanks: 91/91/91/90


At 9:30pm
Boiler temp: 77 C (171 F)
Flu gas temp: 179 C (354 F)
O2: 9.2%
Primary air: 99%
Secondary air: 53%
Draft fan: 85%
tanks: 155/92/92/90

At 10:30pm
Boiler temp: 78 C (172 F)
Flu gas temp: 173 C (343 F)
O2: 8.1%
Primary air: 99%
Secondary air: 46%
Draft fan: 85%
tanks: 162/136/91/90

At 11:30pm
Boiler temp: 78c (172 F)
Flu gas temp: 152 C (305 F)
O2: 8.2%
Primary air: 99%
Secondary air: 18%
Draft fan: 85%
tanks: 163/161/137/95

That's all for today...

cheers


----------



## Piker

I just wanted to go back to something I said in an earlier post about skewing the results of the test with the relatively cool storage tank water.  Since this last run basically fully charged the tanks, I don't think there is any skewing going on at all.  The loading unit ensures that a minimum of 160° water is being returned to the boiler, so it's not like we're running 90° water past the heat exchanger, dropping stack temps and increasing thermal efficiency because of it.  The only skewing of the results would have been if the tanks had never gone above 160° during the firing, as they do normally on a typical run in order to get them fully charged.  The fact that the tanks went almost all the way to 190, which is where we peak the tanks at with this boiler, puts that last 30° in play as far as the drop in thermal transfer that occurs as boiler temperature increases along with the diminishing differential between the exhaust gasses before they enter the heat exchanger and the boiler water.

You have to keep in mind as well that this boiler matches the load down to 50% of it's rated output... so as the return on the boiler starts heating up, output is diminished, which keeps the stack temps low.  Again, I don't have to tell you all how nice a feature this is.  

I just hope I explained in a way that makes sense.   

cheers


----------



## Piker

OH by the way... the Froling 40/50 can be set to run at the 40kw or 50kw setting... (136k and 170K btu).  This test was run on the 50 setting.

cheers


----------



## TCaldwell

Piker, thankyou for the results, it seems under full load the inducer runs at 85% with primary air pretty much wide open, notice as the secondary damper opens to maintain setpoint the flue temp is the highest  [ highest secondary burn temp]  and the last reading the secondary damper is starting to close, less wood gas to burn off to maintain setpiont , and flue temp is starting to drop. I would guess the inducer % would decrease and dampers to trim for reduced output. What pleasantly suprises me is the relatively low flue temp at high output, even with a 8% 02 setpoint , [ a little excess air up the flue as stiochemeteric  is 7.5% o2] . It seems as the design is to run the o2 a little lean to keep the hx tubes clean, but have added more transfer ability with the turbulators to recoup some of the heat from the excess air up the flue to maintain a high effiency %. Also there is position feedback from the dampers that is interpreted in % open for a reference. Seems very well thought out.
   thanks   tom


----------



## jebatty

The most reliable number I've seen on wood btu's is 6000/lb at 20% MC and 400F stack temperature. Your MC is 20% or a little below, and your stack is little lower, so I think btu's/lb would be somewhat more than 6000.


----------



## Piker

So tonight I am getting ready to post some pictures of the heat exchanger cleaning that I did on the Froling tonight... in the meantime, here is a decent shot of the gasification torch on the Froling.  It's actually kind of amazing that I was able to get such a good shot through that tiny little glass peep-hole in the bottom door.  You will notice that the torch comes out of the upper chamber tangential to the circular refractory, creating a swirling of the gasses.  This effectively increases the residence time of the wood gas in the high temperature environment of the refractory, as well as helping to pulverize the solid particles of ash and coal.

If nothing else, we all love a good shot of some gasification.  Enjoy... and stay tuned for some heat exchanger shots.

cheers


----------



## Piker

So, as promised, here are a few shots of the heat exchanger cleaning process.   The first two photo's are of the exterior panel that allows access to the removable hatch that covers the top of the heat exchanger.  You will notice that there are no screws to remove.  Simply lift the panel out of the recessed pocket that it sits in, and your on the inside.

The second two photo's are of the inner hatch.   Two heavy anchor bolts tie the hatch to a couple of tabs on each side of the vessel at the top of the heat exchanger.  The anchor bolts are tightened by the large black knobs on either side.  This hatch comes complete with a gasket for a good seal and an insulating type refractory.  As you can see... access to the heat exchanger for cleaning is just about as easy as it gets.  

The third picture is of the hatch itself.  Pretty self explanatory.

More to come... 

cheers.


----------



## Piker

These next shots are of the inside of the heat exchanger.  At this point, the boiler has just over 100 hours of service on it, so I didn't really expect to see much inside in the way of crusty soot anyways... but aside from the fly ash, the tubes were completely free of any solid buildup whatsoever.  I could have cleaned the tubes with a rag.  The draft fan was also free of any buildup, except for a little dust.

In order to take apart the shaker assembly, the two bolts need to be loosened on the clamp that you see on the turbulator assembly.  This clamp holds the turbulator assembly tight to the rod that it hangs on between the vessel sides.  The rod, and the handle that you see on the exterior of the boiler, are all one piece.  So basically, loosen 2 10mm bolts and you can pull the turbulators out, which you can also see are very clean, save a bit of dust.

Once everything is out, just run the brush that is supplied by Bioheat (among other tools that come with the boiler that I haven't had a chance to tell you about) through the tubes, then sweep out the ash and you're ready to put everything back together.  It only took a few swipes of the bore brush to remove the built up dust, at which point the tubes looked brand new inside.

One more post on it's way to put everything back together...

cheers


----------



## Piker

Putting the turbulators back into the tubes can be tricky by yourself when you have low ceilings.  But hanging the turbs over the edge like in the first picture becomes your second set of hands while you attach them through the holes on the shaker assembly.  

This whole process took maybe 15 minutes from start to finish.  When it's easy to do a cleaning, it's easy to keep the boiler running at peak efficiency all season long... which should save you a little wood over the course of a winter.  I can see myself giving the boiler a scrubbing probably every 4 to 6 weeks just for this reason.  

My next project will be to get the real-time video of the lighting procedure posted on the website for everyone to see.  Once the upper chamber is loaded, it's 3 minutes 30 seconds from start to finish, and you walk away from the boiler. I'm no movie director, but I think I can make the video look decent enough.   I also took some video through the peep hole today so I can watch it on my laptop... never get tired of seeing the torch.

That's all for today.  Hope you enjoyed the pics.  Enjoy the weekend.

-cheers


----------



## Piker

OK,  this is my first attempt at Youtube videos... but I just embedded a video of the Froling's gasification torch onto our website.  It's a little rough, and I'll eventually try to get some higher resolution video posted, but you still get the idea.

You will note about halfway through the video that the camera goes a little hay-wire... i had the middle lighting door open and then shut it half way through the video... sorry...  I'm still an amateur, and will thus likely remain.

http://hillsideenergy.com/froling_turbo_3000.htm

I'll try to get a realtime video of lighting the boiler up soon.

cheers


----------



## Singed Eyebrows

Nice! I can see where that rotating flame would put a lot of the heat into that chamber & the 10 fire tubes would take out a bunch more. Even though I can't afford it now it sure is nice to see this boiler. You did very well with the video,  Randy


----------



## Singed Eyebrows

Piker; What happened to the "hot plates" as I heard them refered to. My literature from about 1 1/2 years ago clearly shows about 6 vertical plates in the primary chamber & they are said to be 3mm thick.. Your install shows the dimpled walls & unless I missed it, no plates. Was Froling just trying to keep the cost down, design change? I know the Atmos for Germany(GSE) is far fancier, Randy / I ran through the thread again & it looks like they are probably there, it's hard to tell on the sides though.


----------



## Piker

Singed Eyebrows said:
			
		

> Piker; What happened to the "hot plates" as I heard them refered to. My literature from about 1 1/2 years ago clearly shows about 6 vertical plates in the primary chamber & they are said to be 3mm thick.. Your install shows the dimpled walls & unless I missed it, no plates. Was Froling just trying to keep the cost down, design change? I know the Atmos for Germany(GSE) is far fancier, Randy / I ran through the thread again & it looks like they are probably there, it's hard to tell on the sides though.



Firebox aprons... 3mm thick... I posted a pic of the firebox back a couple pages, and you can kind of see them inside, but the picture isn't the best.  They are on the sides and back of the firebox.  It's amazing how little creosote you find in the upper chamber of this unit because of those.  Actually none whatsoever on the aprons themselves... and my guess is not much behind them either because the aprons are still hanging loose inside.  The dimples that you saw were on the outside of the vessel... called quilting... used in place of stay-bolts where possible.

Maybe i should take some better pictures of the aprons... installed and removed for say a seasonal cleaning.

cheers


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## Piker

Finally... realtime video of lighting the Froling.  Please excuse the total lack of video skills... and narration skills... Do I really sound like that in real life?

At any rate, here's the link.  It will be the video on the right once the page has loaded:
http://hillsideenergy.com/froling_turbo_3000.htm

On another note, I need to correct something I said in the last post.  The firebox aprons are not just on the back and sides of the upper chamber... they are also on the front.  I took one out and took a couple pictures to post tonight, but then inadvertently erased them to take the video of lighting the boiler.  I'll get that posted up by the end of the week... it's clean inside, even behind the aprons.  No runny creosote to be found in the upper chamber of the FHG.

that's all for tonight... enjoy the video, such as it is.  

cheers


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## Jim K in PA

Piker - great write up and perfectly useable videos.  

I am not as familiar with the DD gassers, but perhaps that tangential nozzle flame will help prolong the life of the refractory materials.  Direct impingement will certainly cause a higher scouring rate than angular impingement.  Good engineering.

How many nozzles are there in the FHG?  With my GARN there is only a single gassification flame, but it's as big as my thigh!

For a single district system, an FHG with 1k or 1.5 gals of storage looks ideal.

Best of luck with your system.


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## sparke

Froiling has officially become my #1 choice if money were no issue. Froiling has nudged out Garn by a small margin on my wish list.  I suspect there would be a noticable savings in wood consumption over most competitors as well...


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## Piker

Jim K in PA said:
			
		

> Piker - great write up and perfectly useable videos.
> 
> I am not as familiar with the DD gassers, but perhaps that tangential nozzle flame will help prolong the life of the refractory materials.  Direct impingement will certainly cause a higher scouring rate than angular impingement.  Good engineering.
> 
> How many nozzles are there in the FHG?  With my GARN there is only a single gassification flame, but it's as big as my thigh!
> 
> For a single district system, an FHG with 1k or 1.5 gals of storage looks ideal.
> 
> Best of luck with your system.



I am glad that folks are enjoying the thread.  The whole process of installing this boiler, cataloging the install, and learning how to operate it has been tons of fun for me.  I feel like a kid with a new toy, and I'm just thrilled with the results so far.  This was a good move for us, no doubt about it.  It has certainly made life easier on us with regards to operation of the heating system.

I hadn't given it much thought, but maybe you are right about the tangential nozzle extending the life of the refractory.  I can't say that it will or will not - cause I simply don't know... but it makes sense.  I believe Froling states a 10 year lifespan on the refractory.  Cool thing about it is, the entire refractory mass can be replaced by simply sliding a new one in.   No poured refractory mass to chisel apart and repour inside the vessel like our last unit.  When it's time to replace the refractory, you break the circular refractory along the sides where it's thinnest, and work the pieces out as the entire unit is sort of mortised and tenoned to the vessel with metal tabs... then the new refractory just slides in.  Once in place, you slide new metal tabs through some slots in the refractory into the vessel to hold it in place.  I have never done it, but it sounds simple... maybe a 30 minute job?  An hour tops?  Who knows... I don't think I'll have to worry about it for a while.

The other thing i like about the refractory in this boiler is the top of the nozzle... it's not refractory... it's cast iron.  Just a square  piece of cast plate with a slot down through the center of it that sits over the nozzle atop the circular refractory mass.  Instead of chiseling out a refractory nozzle brick every two or three years for replacement, you can just slip this piece of cast out and put a new one in if necessary.  Not sure what the life expectancy of this cast nozzle-top is.  I would think more than 3 years if you're not banging it around all the time. I'll take some pics of that next time i'm down there photographing and making terrible videos.  

The Froling does what it does with one nozzle... I don't have measurements in front of me, but it looks to be a little bigger than the one our other boiler had.  Not that a bigger nozzle implies anything... just noting the difference.  

Thats all for now...  have a pleasant evening.

cheers


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## Piker

sparke said:
			
		

> Froiling has officially become my #1 choice if money were no issue. Froiling has nudged out Garn by a small margin on my wish list.  I suspect there would be a noticable savings in wood consumption over most competitors as well...



According to the numbers I have run so far, I think I can conservatively guesstimate around a 20% reduction in fuel usage compared to our previous unit, just based on delivered btu's to our tanks now compared to before.  That seems like a lot, I know, but I don't know how else to read the numbers.  With Froling stack temps that stick near 300 for most of the burn, compared to 650° or more, the increase in heat exchange alone is significant.  Couple that with a higher average combustion efficiency over the course of a burn due to the lambda technology, and output-load matching, and it kind of makes sense.  Again, not throwing ANY of the other gasification units under the bus here... just noting differences from the only hands-on frame of reference that i have. 

cheers


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## ken999

"I am glad that folks are enjoying the thread."

What's not to like about that Froling? grin.

Great job on the vids and the thread in general. Congrats on the boiler too. They are pretty neat.


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## Singed Eyebrows

Piker said:
			
		

> Jim K in PA said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Piker - great write up and perfectly useable videos.
> 
> I am not as familiar with the DD gassers, but perhaps that tangential nozzle flame will help prolong the life of the refractory materials.  Direct impingement will certainly cause a higher scouring rate than angular impingement.  Good engineering.
> 
> How many nozzles are there in the FHG?  With my GARN there is only a single gassification flame, but it's as big as my thigh!
> 
> For a single district system, an FHG with 1k or 1.5 gals of storage looks ideal.
> 
> Best of luck with your system.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am glad that folks are enjoying the thread.  The whole process of installing this boiler, cataloging the install, and learning how to operate it has been tons of fun for me.  I feel like a kid with a new toy, and I'm just thrilled with the results so far.  This was a good move for us, no doubt about it.  It has certainly made life easier on us with regards to operation of the heating system.
> 
> I hadn't given it much thought, but maybe you are right about the tangential nozzle extending the life of the refractory.  I can't say that it will or will not - cause I simply don't know... but it makes sense.  I believe Froling states a 10 year lifespan on the refractory.  Cool thing about it is, the entire refractory mass can be replaced by simply sliding a new one in.   No poured refractory mass to chisel apart and repour inside the vessel like our last unit.  When it's time to replace the refractory, you break the circular refractory along the sides where it's thinnest, and work the pieces out as the entire unit is sort of mortised and tenoned to the vessel with metal tabs... then the new refractory just slides in.  Once in place, you slide new metal tabs through some slots in the refractory into the vessel to hold it in place.  I have never done it, but it sounds simple... maybe a 30 minute job?  An hour tops?  Who knows... I don't think I'll have to worry about it for a while.
> 
> The other thing i like about the refractory in this boiler is the top of the nozzle... it's not refractory... it's cast iron.  Just a square  piece of cast plate with a slot down through the center of it that sits over the nozzle atop the circular refractory mass.  Instead of chiseling out a refractory nozzle brick every two or three years for replacement, you can just slip this piece of cast out and put a new one in if necessary.  Not sure what the life expectancy of this cast nozzle-top is.  I would think more than 3 years if you're not banging it around all the time. I'll take some pics of that next time i'm down there photographing and making terrible videos.
> 
> The Froling does what it does with one nozzle... I don't have measurements in front of me, but it looks to be a little bigger than the one our other boiler had.  Not that a bigger nozzle implies anything... just noting the difference.
> 
> Thats all for now...  have a pleasant evening.
> 
> cheers
Click to expand...

 Thats interesting Piker about the cast piece. I'm having excessive nozzle wear(just on the top) with my Atmos. I thought about putting a steel protection plate on top & gave this up because I though it would gassify too fast. I'm going to give it a go now. Thanks, Randy


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## Piker

I've had a few questions regarding the video that I linked to on lighting the Froling, most of which have to do with how the process happens so quickly.  I think the easiest way to address this is just to show in a still photo what was not visible in the video... the residual coal bed.  This photo shows the amount of coals that are commonly left over for the next firing once the froling has shut down.  I moved some of the coals around over the nozzle to make it more visible.  Remember that the control on the froling will not allow the storage circulator to stop until the bottom of the tanks are within a few degrees of the boiler, so producing steam inside the vessel from the coals is not an issue.  

cheers


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## Piker

... and the firebox aprons.  I removed the right side - front apron for these shots.  The apron itself has not been cleaned... just removed and photographed.  Notice that niether the front nor the back of this apron has any creosote build-up.  Behind the aprons, on the vessel walls, there is an extremely thin layer of black glossy creosote.  This layer, at first glance, looks like paint.  It is so thin that the aprons do not stick to it at all.  Note the holes at the bottom of the apron where primary air is introduced at the bottom of the firebox.

cheers


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## Piker

At last, a couple shots of the cast iron nozzle piece.  This comes in two symmetrical pieces (right and left hand) and sits neatly inside of a formed pocket on top of the refractory.  Shown is the left side piece.

cheers


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## pybyr

Very impressive and thanks for sharing-- I had a chance to behold a Froling in person earlier today at the BioHeat trailer at the Northeast Logging Expo-- a very well designed and made unit (though I've had nothing but satisfaction so far with my existing Econoburn).  The Froling's unique small "starting door" at the bottom of the main firebox is a really great idea


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## djbutt

Did you use a duravent stove adapter or did the elbow fit directly on the boiler. I'm switching from single wall to double wall and trying to figure out what I need to order.


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## bro-tek

Hi,

I'm new to this forum, I was missing out, lots of great info on this site.

Great post Piker, great breakdown on the install of the Froling.

I'm setting up my Froling 40/50 & would like to know a good size lenght needed  (to be safe) of 3/4" High output baseboard for the dump/power out.

Richard


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## Piker

bro-tek said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> I'm new to this forum, I was missing out, lots of great info on this site.
> 
> Great post Piker, great breakdown on the install of the Froling.
> 
> I'm setting up my Froling 40/50 & would like to know a good size lenght needed  (to be safe) of 3/4" High output baseboard for the dump/power out.
> 
> Richard



First of all... Congrats on the new boiler!!  I am sure that everyone here would enjoy pics and discussion about your installation, so please feel free to share!

Tarm Recommends 10% of the rated output for a gravity loop... going by the 40kw rating, I would think that 20' should do it.  We're using 24' of regular old fintube here and have never had a problem.  

cheers


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## bro-tek

Tks piker, will post pics once i get the heat is on.... A couple weeks I hope....


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## jbastide

Have a Froling 30 that's been going for a few weeks, and one problem we've encountered is that the secondary combustion doesn't seem to be taking place effectively. During a burn, the secondary air damper usually doesn't open past the programmed minimum (10%) due to excessive residual O2. 

The wood is mostly red oak seasoned a year. Most of it got snowed on this winter, but I didn't expect that to make too much of a difference with the burn. I saw similar problems when using kiln dried hardwood as well. That was unexpected. When I put the seasoned wood and the kiln dried variety in my Jotul 602 they go pretty well. 

In the programming settings, I tried adjusting some of the air parameters to deal with another issue - heavy condensation in an exterior chimney with a clay liner. The default minimum stack temp is 120C. I bumped it up to 150C to prevent the worst of the moisture issues. That seemed to help.

This morning's burn, as well as this evening's, have both been disappointing. I need to run with the lighting door open for at least 30 minutes to get the flue gas up to temp. If I shut it before the stack temp reaches 175C, the stack temp falls so fast that the boiler goes into shutdown status. Residual O2 stays between 14-18% for the vast majority of all the burns. I would think that this meant I wasn't generating enough heat in the primary combustion chamber to produce enough gas for secondary combustion. 

Our installer recommended checking the butterfly valves for the air intakes on the left and right sides of the boiler. They are both in the same position, so it looks like they were installed correctly. 

I'm going to increase the max ID fan speed to 95%. That seems to get the primary chamber up to a higher temp and give a better chance of gasification, but I know that it also skews the ratio of primary to secondary air and could make the system less efficient. 

Willing to hear any suggestions folks have. Someone recommended I try biobricks, which I'm willing to use as a control to make sure the boiler is operating correctly. I'd like to make it work with cordwood, though. From the literature I read, the Turbo 3000 could operate with wood at a higher MC, even up to 30-35%, albeit at decreased efficiencies, with the sweet spot falling around 20% MC. 

Thanks!

Jesse


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## Piker

jbastide said:
			
		

> Have a Froling 30 that's been going for a few weeks, and one problem we've encountered is that the secondary combustion doesn't seem to be taking place effectively. During a burn, the secondary air damper usually doesn't open past the programmed minimum (10%) due to excessive residual O2.
> 
> The wood is mostly red oak seasoned a year. Most of it got snowed on this winter, but I didn't expect that to make too much of a difference with the burn. I saw similar problems when using kiln dried hardwood as well. That was unexpected. When I put the seasoned wood and the kiln dried variety in my Jotul 602 they go pretty well.
> 
> In the programming settings, I tried adjusting some of the air parameters to deal with another issue - heavy condensation in an exterior chimney with a clay liner. The default minimum stack temp is 120C. I bumped it up to 150C to prevent the worst of the moisture issues. That seemed to help.
> 
> This morning's burn, as well as this evening's, have both been disappointing. I need to run with the lighting door open for at least 30 minutes to get the flue gas up to temp. If I shut it before the stack temp reaches 175C, the stack temp falls so fast that the boiler goes into shutdown status. Residual O2 stays between 14-18% for the vast majority of all the burns. I would think that this meant I wasn't generating enough heat in the primary combustion chamber to produce enough gas for secondary combustion.
> 
> Our installer recommended checking the butterfly valves for the air intakes on the left and right sides of the boiler. They are both in the same position, so it looks like they were installed correctly.
> 
> I'm going to increase the max ID fan speed to 95%. That seems to get the primary chamber up to a higher temp and give a better chance of gasification, but I know that it also skews the ratio of primary to secondary air and could make the system less efficient.
> 
> Willing to hear any suggestions folks have. Someone recommended I try biobricks, which I'm willing to use as a control to make sure the boiler is operating correctly. I'd like to make it work with cordwood, though. From the literature I read, the Turbo 3000 could operate with wood at a higher MC, even up to 30-35%, albeit at decreased efficiencies, with the sweet spot falling around 20% MC.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Jesse



There's something definitely wrong if it's taking 30 minutes to get the flu gas up to temperature.  I will generally see 100Â° C within 3 minutes of starting a fire.  Peak stack temps are generally not more than 200Â° C.  The only thing I have ever seen cause slow startups is green wood, which you seem certain is not the case here... I would still like to see a moisture meter reading though.

The drier fuel, ie kiln dried, will produce fantastic amounts of woodgas in a short period of time.  The froling will compensate by closing the primary air more, and opening the secondary air.  With biobricks, (5% moisture)  I have seen 10% primary air settings with 90% secondary air... and a fantastic secondary flame.  

30 to 35% moisture is way too high for any wood burning device to be effective.  20% or less is key to great gasification... 15% is even better... basically, the lower the moisture content the better.

I can definitely see where condensation could be an issue with a tile chimney, especially if the chimney is outside the home and the wood is green.

I don't think that changing the max fan speed should be necessary... though it shouldn't skew the primary/secondary air ratio like you say.  The dampers control this ratio regardless of fan speed.

Your O2 levels will be high while you leave the lighting door open.  Your secondary damper will not start to meter the secondary combustion air until you close the outer door.  The fact that you can't get a good fire in the upper chamber, and your O2 readings seem out of whack...  leads me to think there is an issue with the dampers not being timed properly.  I would start there...  

cheers


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## Grover59

I have a small question, I am under the assumption that the froling has just the draft fan providing the air flow for the primary and secondary chambers. Individual flow to each chamber is controlled by the dampers. 

Steve


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## jebatty

A word of encouragement: keep at it, you've got a top notch boiler that will do an excellent job once you get your wood and other settings right. 

Call me skeptical, but I never would even try to burn red oak seasoned one year in my Tarm. My rule is minimum 2 years, but 3 years unless no other option. As to kiln dried wood, if other than high quality finished lumber stored inside, that may mean 17-19% MC, and then if it was stored outside, uncovered, could be higher; stored inside for a year could be 10% depending on your ambient humidity conditions.

I would suggest getting a half cord or so of truly very dry wood and working with that to tune the Frolig. Don't try to tune it with unknown wood, and plan for very dry wood for the future to assure that you get the performance the Frolig is capable of providing. High moisture content wood I believe to be the source of most gasification boiler performance problems. What does the Frolig manual say on MC? The Tarm manual recommends 15% or less.

Also, follow the rule that the most simple solution more likely will solve the problem rather than pursuing a more complex solution. That means one thing only: burn dry wood.


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## jbastide

Thanks for all the tips and encouragement. As it's our first experience burning only wood, we're still learning. Going to pursue dryer wood / biobricks to get us through this month.

Best,
Jesse


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## Der Fuirmeister

Piker said:
			
		

> These shots are of the heat exchanger and the turbulator mechanism.  The Froling has a total of 10 2" heat exchanger tubes with turbulators in each one.  This is significantly more heat exchange than I am used to, and one of the reasons why the Froling never sees stack temps higher than 475ï¿½... I have yet to witness stack temps higher than 375ï¿½, and for most of the burn seem to hover around 300.



I'm not familiar with this unit.  The temps mentioned seem higher than I'm used to seeing in our Wood Gun (245-285*, 305* max.).  Is it a gasifier or a standard boiler?  In another post you mentioned that you are a Biomass dealer.  I'm curious, if you are a Biomass dealer, why did you install a Froling at home?  What brand boiler are you replacing?

Some of my questions may be because I'm not familiar with all the boilers out there, but I thought I'd ask.......


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## TCaldwell

jd, have you run a run a brush through the flue lately. sounds more like the boiler could be inducing shutdown mode because of flue blockage.   Also does the boiler do diagnostics on the o2 sensor, just a thought.


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## jbastide

I'd like to post an update on the combustion issues I'd been having with my Froling 20/30 since you guys offered some good advice on things to check out. 

System: Froling 20/30 (running in 30kw mode) 
650 gal. insulated thermal storage
passive solar
propane backup (never runs!)
exterior uninsulated masonry chimney with a square 6 inch clay flue

System was commissioned Jan 15th of this year during a cold snap. Noticed that I got several gallons of water due to condensation in the uninsulated flue. This was leaking out of the cleanout. In the installation manual, it does mention that condensation is a possibility. 

In an effort to keep moisture down in the flue, I increased the minimum flue gas temp to 150 degrees C. No more condensation. However, by this point I had started looking at average residual oxygen levels during a burn and seeing levels between 14-18% for most of a burn. The primary damper would stay 99% open and the secondary would stick to 10% for the entire burn. This led me to believe that I wasn't achieving efficient gasification because of improper wood gas to combustion air ratios.

Folks suggested that I try some really dry fuel, so I managed to get some geobricks at my local paris farmer's union. I was still kind of surprised when the residual oxygen levels were still high (12-15%.) I burned them both alone and in conjunction with some of my less than ideal cordwood ('seasoned' in log form, cut and split on day of delivery in the Fall. I'm learning....) The burn was still not great. 

Yesterday, I decided to try something new. Because outside air temperature was around 42 degrees F, I lowered the minimum flue gas temp back to 120C, thinking that any condensation problems might not be as bad as when it was really cold. I had a few geobricks on top of my cordwood, with about a half a load in the primary chamber. Residual O2 was in the 8% range during most of the burn. Secondary air was open over 25%, and primary air was choked down. This was working great!

Seems like the following are key to getting the Froling to work well with an exterior chimney.
1. Dry fuel
2. Insulated SS flue liner (or warmer outside temps!)
3. Keeping minimum stack temp at default setting (120) or not much higher to allow the boiler to reach gasification mode faster and not toss that heat up the stack

Thanks again!
Jesse


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## DaveBP

I'm a little surprised that Froling would even sanction an installation with an uninsulated exterior masonry chimney. 

That really puts you at a disadvantage.


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## TCaldwell

can you put a insulated liner in the masonry flue, this might help in the long run.


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## Willman

Its all about proper seasoning of the fuel. 2 years cut split and stacked.  Try to get some wood delivered before mud season (double up on qty. if possible) and start blocking and splitting. Stack in single rows in the wind for drying. then this time next year we can read your posts praising the awesome boiler you installed.
Check out the wood shed here for all things wood.

Will


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## mustash29

This thread is very inspiring to say the least.  Thank you for the effort and insight on this (sexy) boiler.  I'm looking forward to the day when I can have my very own thread similar to this.

According to the nice folks at Tarm, red & blue play nicely together.

This guy was installed in '96 when the house was built, it has served me very well over the years.







It's had an awful lot of help from this guy, but I'm sorry to say I do believe her days are numbered:


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## skfire

Good luck and take your time...

red and blue went well for my install 
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/77159/P0/

even though the Blue Buderus does not get much exercise anymore...the Red has taken over...
into the 5 month..and looking good.
and regarding the Tarm guys, highest compliments thus far.

Scott


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