# Questions for Vermont Casting 0044 / 0046 Owners



## mnowaczyk (Feb 22, 2009)

Re-titled this thread from "Is this stove worth anything?  How do I ID this Vermont Casting?" to Questions for Vermont Casting 0044 / 0046 owners.

Removed old / dead link to craigslist post where I bought the stove near West Chester, PA (Doylestown??)


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## LeonMSPT (Feb 22, 2009)

Vermont Castings, 

"FPI 0044/0046"  Difference between the 44/46 is the brass trim found on 0046. Was a "coal kit" available at one time for them...  

Been burning one of those pretty hard for five years now. It resided in the fireplace in the house I now own. Full liner from the insert to the top of the chimney. Easily heats 1,800 square foot apartment to 75 to 85 degrees, when it's 25 to 30 below zero outdoors. House is 150 years old, plaster and lathe, old double hung windows with aluminum storms. 

It's a heat producer alright...  with the small firebox, 6 to 7 hours useful burn time is about all you are going to get. 

Check the fire grate in the bottom, and the middle support in the rear, in front of the firebricks, and the bricks...  grate bars in the front...  warping, cracks, and breakage are problems. Parts remain on the market, but the prices appear to be going crazy. 

This is mine, when I cleaned in after a season and a half of burning. 35 foot tall chimney above it...




			
				mnowaczyk said:
			
		

> http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/hsh/1042843260.html


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## mnowaczyk (Feb 22, 2009)

So you've basically got the same stove and love it?  Do you know where I can get some information on the connections in the back?  As you might see form my signature, I've purchased the wrong stove once.  

It appears to have no souround.  I guess that means it's got a wedge shape in the back?


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## mnowaczyk (Feb 22, 2009)

Is this the correct parts list?  http://homeappliance.manualsonline.com/mdownloads/eb1ab18b-231e-4da4-8ab3-29e89c5db6f1.pdf


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## LeonMSPT (Feb 22, 2009)

That's the correct parts diagram..,  "some" remain available...  not sure about them making any more. They want you to buy a new one. No incentive for them to tool up, whether or not they still have the toolings, to make new parts. 

I am going to bench mine after the season this spring. I will tear it down and clean it...  reassemble it sealed up and painted...   doing it early summer will allow me to work through any damage or broken parts...  if I can rebuild and seal it up good, I will. If not, I will scrap it and buy something else. Likely a newer non cat style VC or Jotul. Cousin sells them, so he might get a used one, trade in...  demo...  

The thing pounds out heat...  do need the blowers though....  the insert lives inside the fireplace, so not much heat without them. 

It tapers to the rear...  can use a commercial surround of the right size. They make them for "universal" fit...  just specify the dimensions of the opening and go get it. 

I do like the insert...  with the bypass plate closed and secondary burn, it gets HOT and blows air out the front that I think would cook a hot dog, but haven't tried it. You cannot hold your hand in the airflow off the blower, you'd get burned. 




			
				mnowaczyk said:
			
		

> So you've basically got the same stove and love it?  Do you know where I can get some information on the connections in the back?  As you might see form my signature, I've purchased the wrong stove once.
> 
> It appears to have no souround.  I guess that means it's got a wedge shape in the back?


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## fossil (Feb 22, 2009)

Seems to me I just read recently in a post put up by the Webmaster in another thread that the "Vermont Stove Company" and "Vermont Castings" are/were NOT the same thing.  Might want to be darned sure of exactly what it is you've got there.  Rick


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## mnowaczyk (Feb 22, 2009)

The heat sounds similar to that which I got out of the "vermont stove company" I ran for a day.  The fan however was very noisy, and did not really pump the air through.  I could not hold my hand 3 inches in front of it for more than maybe 30 seconds.  It might have cooked a hot dog.  I have to admit that I'm still thinking of using it if I can quiet it down.  Hoever, I'd need a $300 positive connection kit, whereas is looks like this one might connect right up to 8" oval flex duct, huh?  And it's only about 30 minutes from my house.  Just need some meatheads to help me load it in and out of my truck.  Do you know how much of this I can take a part before loading to reduce the weight?  I've got an applicance dolly/ hand truck and a couple planks, so it's mostly a matter of sliding it up the planks into the truck.  Waiting for a response on craigslist.  Sounds like... if I end up not using the unit, I could help you out with parts, huh?  

Thanks a ton for the info.  I really like the looks of it.  Notice how similar it is to what I bought last week.


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## LeonMSPT (Feb 22, 2009)

I know the metal plate inside the ash cleanout in the one sitting in my living room says a whole bunch of stuff...

"Vermont Castings" and "Model 0046" are among them. 

Fairly clear from the image in the original post that the two inserts are the "same", with the exception of the brass trim, which makes the one in the original post a "Model 0044". 

The two companies are most likely no more related than any two individuals sharing the same name..,  




			
				fossil said:
			
		

> Seems to me I just read recently in a post put up by the Webmaster in another thread that the "Vermont Stove Company" and "Vermont Castings" are/were NOT the same thing.  Might want to be darned sure of exactly what it is you've got there.  Rick


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## mnowaczyk (Feb 22, 2009)

fossil said:
			
		

> Seems to me I just read recently in a post put up by the Webmaster in another thread that the "Vermont Stove Company" and "Vermont Castings" are/were NOT the same thing.  Might want to be darned sure of exactly what it is you've got there.  Rick



YEP.  I did not know what I bought when I got the "vermont stove company".  It was advertised as "vermont made".  I did not figure out what it was until after I got it home.  Thats when I found the post where a moderator said to "deep six this one" and it was basically junk.  I was happy with the heat output though.  It heated our 3 story 2500 sq ft house.  And it's nice looking.  I've now got a copy of the manual, and might be able to be an "expert" on the "Vermont Stove Company" Shelburne model.  

I just found this equally nice looking "Vermont Casting" which I know has a great reputation.  And a member already helped me ID it.  Got a manual on it already too.  I just need to check the dimensions to make sure it will fit.  It's only 30 minutes away from me and asking $75.  Whoo Hoo!  

I have to admit that that I just paid $50 for another Vermont Stove Shelburne that's 45 minutes from me that I was planning on using for parts and a fan motor.  Now I'm embarrassed to say, I will likely have two 500 lb VT Stove Company Shelburnes that I'll be trying to get rid of.  LOL  $400 wasted, that's all.  

I just wonder if the Vermont Casting 44/46 has a quiet or loud fan.


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## mnowaczyk (Feb 22, 2009)

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/The_Vermont_Stove_Company/


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## LeonMSPT (Feb 22, 2009)

Can lighten it up considerably...  removing the damper, crossbar and support, firebrick, and bottom grate will lighten it to about 275 pounds. Not wort taking more than that apart. 

Check air supply controls, rotate the knob top right toward and away...  should hear the "flappers" on each side fall roughly the same time to close. Make sure the doors open and close easily and completely. Gasket is no big deal...  3/8 rope is all it is. 

Multipiece cast iron stoves and inserts can be "loose" in the seams and allow air to leak in. Hence the preventive maintenance every 3-5 years of disassembly and resealing. 

The connection in the rear can be tough. It's not 8 inch... more like 10.25 inch. Will need an adaptor, and they're "rare"...  

Anybody else knows where to get one, I could use another myself. Mine is getting chewed up and not having great luck finding one. VC's present "large" connector is smaller than that one. 



			
				mnowaczyk said:
			
		

> The heat sounds similar to that which I got out of the "vermont stove company" I ran for a day.  The fan however was very noisy, and did not really pump the air through.  I could not hold my hand 3 inches in front of it for more than maybe 30 seconds.  It might have cooked a hot dog.  I have to admit that I'm still thinking of using it if I can quiet it down.  Hoever, I'd need a $300 positive connection kit, whereas is looks like this one might connect right up to 8" oval flex duct, huh?  And it's only about 30 minutes from my house.  Just need some meatheads to help me load it in and out of my truck.  Do you know how much of this I can take a part before loading to reduce the weight?  I've got an applicance dolly/ hand truck and a couple planks, so it's mostly a matter of sliding it up the planks into the truck.  Waiting for a response on craigslist.  Sounds like... if I end up not using the unit, I could help you out with parts, huh?
> 
> Thanks a ton for the info.  I really like the looks of it.  Notice how similar it is to what I bought last week.


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## mnowaczyk (Feb 22, 2009)

LeonMSPT said:
			
		

> I know the metal plate inside the ash cleanout in the one sitting in my living room says a whole bunch of stuff...
> 
> "Vermont Castings" and "Model 0046" are among them.
> 
> ...




LeonMSPT:

My fireplace is 36 x 29 at the front, and the rear width is 27 inches, and the bottom is nearly 22 inches deep.  So it sounds pretty standard until you hear this:  It's got a vertical back for the first 9 inches, but tapers to only 13 inches deep at the 29 inch high top.  Do you think this will fit my fireplace?

The Vermont Stove barely fit.  The main problem is that my lentil under the bricks on top front of my fireplace are 6.5 inches deep. I guess that leaves another 6.5 inches wear the damper belongs (but will be removed) which is where I'll need my exhaust/liner.  

Do you think the Vermont Casting will fit?

Thanks,
Mike

Thanks,
Mike


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## mnowaczyk (Feb 22, 2009)

SHOULDN'T 8" oval be about 10 1/2 x 5?  I thought I saw that somewhere today.




			
				LeonMSPT said:
			
		

> Can lighten it up considerably...  removing the damper, crossbar and support, firebrick, and bottom grate will lighten it to about 275 pounds. Not wort taking more than that apart.
> 
> Check air supply controls, rotate the knob top right toward and away...  should hear the "flappers" on each side fall roughly the same time to close. Make sure the doors open and close easily and completely. Gasket is no big deal...  3/8 rope is all it is.
> 
> ...


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## LeonMSPT (Feb 22, 2009)

Think it will just fit...  once the damper is removed. Check if they have the adaptor for the insert to liner connection. That's the only "hitch" you might run into. Otherwise, I just measured mine and it appears to be about 13 inches deep at 19 inches high... leaving some wiggle room in your fireplace. That's measuring from the back edge of the outside of the insert. I am not in a place where I am prepared to pull the insert to measure it. I measured from the outer edge of the insert to the rear of the firebox, subtracted what is outside of the firebox and added an inch for the blower jacket. Might be a hair more or less, but think it would fit easily. 




			
				mnowaczyk said:
			
		

> LeonMSPT said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## mnowaczyk (Feb 22, 2009)

Thanks Leon!  It certianly sounds worth the $75 and a couple hours of my time.  Now if I can just get a response from the craigslist post.

Did I mention that I paid $50 for a second stove just like mine last night on eBay?  I think my fan is bad on my "vermont stove company" insert, so I figured this is the quickest cheapest way to assure it's fixed.  Now I'm a knucklehead.  Thinking of buying the 3rd stove that I don't know how to make a connection with.  

Watch me have to buy a different stove, and be selling three on eBay / Craigslist.  LOL.


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## mnowaczyk (Feb 23, 2009)

LeonMSPT said:
			
		

> Multipiece cast iron stoves and inserts can be "loose" in the seams and allow air to leak in. Hence the preventive maintenance every 3-5 years of disassembly and resealing.
> 
> The connection in the rear can be tough. It's not 8 inch... more like 10.25 inch. Will need an adaptor, and they're "rare"...
> 
> ...




LeonMSPT:

I found what I read today making me think 8" oval duct is 10 x 5.  See attached image from my "Vermont Stove Company" Shelburne manaul.


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## mnowaczyk (Feb 23, 2009)

One more thing Leon:

Someone popinted to me to this adapter in the past.  (I don't want to use it because I would want oval duct to get past my damper.)  
http://cgi.ebay.com/Wood-Stove-Inse...ryZ20598QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem 

(I know the item is ended, but I would bet the seller still has them.)


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## mnowaczyk (Feb 23, 2009)

Leon:  Hmmm.... looks like they have lots of sizes of the flex converters.  We might end up interested in the 9" round to 7" x 11"  
http://cgi.ebay.com/Oval-Chimney-Liner_W0QQitemZ120370300992QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0


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## mnowaczyk (Feb 25, 2009)

LeonMSPT:

Got the stove, and the oval is like 13x5, but the outlet on the stove looks like 13.5 x 6.  I'm assuming that this special angled rigid duct is supposed to go inside the insert (as opposed to around it).  That piece doesn't look like it's in bad shape on this one.  If I don't end up using the stove, I'll certainly let you know.  

The bottom grate is definitely cracked.  

It looks like the insert fits well in your fireplace, but it would not cover the entire 36x29 opening on my fireplace.  The guy also gave me a souround.  

I'm looking forward to getting this thing fired up.


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## LeonMSPT (Feb 25, 2009)

Cracked grate fairly common...  have any junk iron around? Right sized stuff, you can cross the crack with a small piece of iron, clamp it in place, drill it and put a bolt through on each side. 

When you reassemble the insert, check really carefully that the grate hasn't "grown". Mine got deeper front to rear, and was hitting the doors, cutting the gaskets... There is a detent about half way back on each side of the bottom of the grate. It should drop onto a projection in the base of the insert, and rest flush on the bottom. 

If the front edge of the grate doesn't line up with the front edge of the firebox and won't rest flush on the bottom of the insert go after the back edge with an angle grinder until it does. 

The inside of the smoke collar is tapered and will seal up with the ovalized pipe. Can drill a hole from inside once it's fitted, on each side, and put a small screw out through to hold it in place. 



			
				mnowaczyk said:
			
		

> LeonMSPT:
> 
> Got the stove, and the oval is like 13x5, but the outlet on the stove looks like 13.5 x 6.  I'm assuming that this special angled rigid duct is supposed to go inside the insert (as opposed to around it).  That piece doesn't look like it's in bad shape on this one.  If I don't end up using the stove, I'll certainly let you know.
> 
> ...


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## mnowaczyk (Feb 26, 2009)

My wife prefers the VC to the old Vermont Stove Co.  But I'm concerned this thing has been overfired and is nothing but a parts stove.  Nonetheless, I installed it, and slightly mangled the 20 degree stove connection.  I have two copies of the paperwork for the ~1984 Vermont Casting positive connection kit.  Apparently a straight and 20 degree came with this kit, and straight is supposed to be used in most cases, as it should have been in mine.  The reason I needed to mangle the connection was because my smoke chamber heads up to the clay liner at an angle to the left.  SO the left side of the connection is lower than the right.  The old 5 x 13 duct was too hard to bend, and tight in my smoke chamber.  Maybe I should have pulled it out and re-inserted it, but by the time I figured out this was a significant problem I was DONE, tired, pissed, etc.  The darn damper was hitting the connection on the left because it was sitting so low!! I had to get my sheet metal snips and cut the left side about 1/2 to 5/8 an inch to get the damper to move "smoothly".

I realy think this thing has been over-fired.  let me take a picture of the bars in the front.  TOTALLY Warped.  There are small spaces in the back corners too.  Should I worry about that?  Could Carbon Monoxide be getting into the blower chamber???  I don't want to die.  

So I've got to say, I think the build quality on the Vermont Stove Company is better.  Maybe it's just because (a) this VC is over-fired, warped, etc.  Or (b) because the VSC has barely been used (but the one I bought for $50 looks like it's had heavy usage, but all looks good on it too).

Do you think this VC is a junker / parts stove???  Here are the problems I found.  Not to mention I was not exactly thrilled with the heat output (like I was with the VSC).  Maybe I need to run it for a day to get lots of hot coals.  

- the slight angle on the connection is getting in the way of the damer 
- unrealated to the above, the damper will pop out of its pivot if you open it too fast.  You have to push the bottom left 
- The bottom grate is broken in half 
- The bottom grate hits the doors, making the left one extremely hard to open, after brunign and expansion 
- There is a slight separation at the back corners of the stove.  This does not look significant, but is enough to at least cause some concern. 
- 4-5 bars onthe front of the stove are significantly bent, looking like this stove has been overfired. 
- The door gaskets need re-sealing 
- The ash tray seems to not go in far enough, so the dorr to the ash pan looks as if it is not completly sealing. 
- There is some rust on the top, looking like maybe some rainwater was getting in the previous woner’s chimney 
- one of the two fans (the left) is not working 

Thanks,
Mike


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## webbie (Feb 26, 2009)

This particular insert, as has been noted, was not considered a good heater. It was something that we "real stove folks" laughed at back then (I was not a VC dealer when it first came out)....and made yuppie jokes about. It looked good. And it had the VC name. That is why people bought it, but those who did for real heat were often disappointed.

It did have a decent coal conversion kit...and with hard coal the heat output was better. We had a number of happy customers who used it for coal.

Basically, my opinion is that these and Vermont Stove Co inserts (Shelburne) are way past their time - and I would not suggest them. If it wasn't for the "crisis" lat year, most people would probably be paying someone to get rid of them (haul the weight away).


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## mnowaczyk (Feb 26, 2009)

Well, I gotta say, realtively, I was impressed with the heat of the Vermost Stove Company Shelburne as opposed to the Vermont Casting 0044 / 0046.   Maybe it's because one of the fans on the VC is not working.  I dunno.  LeonMSPT apparenty thinks the Vermont Casting 0044 / 0046 is a heater, and I agree that it at least makes the wood last longer than an open fireplace (which is the only other thing I've used).  With no experience at all, I'm not willing to make the $3000 investment in a stove + liner.  So I'm getting some experience with the old cheap boxes.  After my "installation" troubles last night, I'm realizing the benefit of buying a good performer, and having a professional installation.  I'm going to want to see the stove I buy in action before buying anything of significant value.  I guess I'm running up against the end of the season now, and might drop the issue altogether until fall.

I also want a pretty looking stove.  

I'm also an old-home restorer, so whatever I do, I'd always like to make sure there is a possibility to go back to an open fireplace.  I'm not too interested in ripping out my lentil or anything that a round duct might require.  Picky and Cheap, huh?


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## LeonMSPT (Feb 27, 2009)

mnowaczyk said:
			
		

> My wife prefers the VC to the old Vermont Stove Co.  But I'm concerned this thing has been overfired and is nothing but a parts stove.  Nonetheless, I installed it, and slightly mangled the 20 degree stove connection.  I have two copies of the paperwork for the ~1984 Vermont Casting positive connection kit.  Apparently a straight and 20 degree came with this kit, and straight is supposed to be used in most cases, as it should have been in mine.  The reason I needed to mangle the connection was because my smoke chamber heads up to the clay liner at an angle to the left.  SO the left side of the connection is lower than the right.  The old 5 x 13 duct was too hard to bend, and tight in my smoke chamber.  Maybe I should have pulled it out and re-inserted it, but by the time I figured out this was a significant problem I was DONE, tired, pissed, etc.  The darn damper was hitting the connection on the left because it was sitting so low!! I had to get my sheet metal snips and cut the left side about 1/2 to 5/8 an inch to get the damper to move "smoothly".
> 
> ***  So, I think instead of setting the adaptor flush into the top of the insert, you shoved in through the top of the stove at an angle? The adaptor should have come to rest on a small ridge at the bottom of the tapered inlet... maybe 3/4 inch or so deep and sit there. I drilled a 1/8 inch hold on each side of mine to push a screw out through the hold it in.
> 
> ...


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## mnowaczyk (Feb 27, 2009)

From what I noted, you want any parts from this thing?  I'm not impressed with the heat after a 5 hour burn with a good bed of coals.  Left side glass all covered in soot.  That's interesting because that door gasket looks better, just a littlw loose in one spot... Maybe tray is pushing it out.  I actually need to use my poker to pry the door open now that its hot. But still, soot is at top, I guess where smoke is.


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## mnowaczyk (Feb 27, 2009)

I could not imagine these problems happening to the vermont stove company.  That thing is one big muther of a casting.  Its a big square block of steel you put in your fireplace... One difference was slammer install.  I wonder if my 40+ foot chimney is a culprit with the vermont casting...  I wonder if I need to close up some air ports like you say you did.  This thing seems to be plowing through the wood, and there's not a ton of heat.  Still 66 degrees in house (not a single degree of rise), but I have to admit my heater hasn't been running.  Then again, its not exactly cold out today.  The day with the vsc was 34/25.  Today was almost 50.


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## LeonMSPT (Feb 27, 2009)

I think without a liner connected, it's going to be difficult to get a secondary burn reliably with it or any other. Might be interested in:

Doors/glass, middle support bar in the back, from the sounds of things there's not much else that's worth shipping. Connector might be salvagable...



			
				mnowaczyk said:
			
		

> From what I noted, you want any parts from this thing?  I'm not impressed with the heat after a 5 hour burn with a good bed of coals.  Left side glass all covered in soot.  That's interesting because that door gasket looks better, just a littlw loose in one spot... Maybe tray is pushing it out.  I actually need to use my poker to pry the door open now that its hot. But still, soot is at top, I guess where smoke is.


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## mnowaczyk (Feb 27, 2009)

I will check if I can use the fan.  Very disappointed to wake 6 hours later to nothing but fine ash. Dampered down, and over loaded as much as possible.  Boo hoo.


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## mnowaczyk (Feb 27, 2009)

LeonMSPT said:
			
		

> I think without a liner connected, it's going to be difficult to get a secondary burn reliably with it or any other. Might be interested in:



LeonMSPT:
I looked up my Chimney sweep paperwork (not gospel or scientific data by any means).  He wrote that I have 13 x 13 clay liner.  With this Vermont Stove 0044 / 0046, do you suggest an 8" liner for my ~40 foot chimney?  Is the LARGER 13 x 13 too big and not providing enough velocity for a slow burn?  (Would that leed to too much cooling in the chimney?)  With a taller chimney, would a smaller liner, or a larger liner make more sense?  I understand that a wide liner in a short chimney would have a tendancy to back-draft.  With a larger chimney back draft is not typically an issue (I assume).  So I would therefore assume a taller chimney can handle a wider opening, not to mention the stonger draft is going to pull the air faster.  I've been starting to think that the taller chimneys (with a good clay liner) have less of a need for a full stainless liner...   Creosote "buildup" on a smooth clay liner is probably going to (a) be less likely to collect on a smooth clay wall than a bumpy flex liner... I guess with the exception of a well insulated liner being warmer and less likely to cause smoke concensation, and (b) have creosote buildup to a point where it affects air flow.

If there is any credence to that argument (I understand the insulation is a big opposing factor).... Aren't you just using your liner as a Chimney Damper to either slow the flow of the air, or cause it to move at a higher velocity?

Shouldn't the stove damper handle this?  

Hey... I clearly need a class on chimney physics.  Please don't take my questions the wrong way.  I think due to my college days of Chemical Engineering and my lack of desire to just spend some cash without understanding the full system, I've got a real desire to understand the system I'm building.  I'd hate to spend thousands to later determine I've built the wrong system.

I'm wondering if I was getting hotter slower fire out of the Vermont Stove Company because the input to the "afterburner" is smaller (only four ~ 1.5" square openings).  Maybe this stove is labelled a piece of junk because it won't afterburn fast enough in most shorter chimneys (or even mine when lined).  Could the strong draw of my chimney be making the Vermont Stove Company a good performer???   On the other hand... Maybe the fast draw of my chimney with the small afterburner in that Vermont Stove Company would cause the exhaust to come out too fast, possibly not achieving a full burn before leaving the stove.

I need a Chimney physics training course.  You'd think there would be some equations we could use for stove-chimney design that would include:
- chimeny height
- chimeny/liner area
- expected stove contant BTU
- sectional area for afterburner 
- length of afterburner chamber
- expected or desired air flow rate

Some more complicated items might include:
- interior chimney wall temp (now we are in some serious calculus with an obvious temperture gradient from top to bottom)
- Exterior Temp (= temp of top exterrior of chimney)
- Stove Temp (hopefully a fixed contstant of a desired temp)

People have been burning stuff plenty long enough to have figured this out.  I guess it's time for a new post... Maybe I'll call it "system air flow physics".  I will do some searches first.

Thanks,
Mike


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## redwolf (Mar 1, 2009)

Just purchased a VC 0046 off of craigslist, looking at this posting I paid way to much. Trying to get it running, but looks like all seals are bad, so working to fix the problem. I am trying to figure out what kind of heat output this stove should have, at this time very little if any is coming from blower (It may be this model was made just for looks). At the same time of buying this insert I made another purchase of a Quadrafire wood stove, great heat output, maybe to much for the garage it went in. Going to take a look at local Quadrafire dealer about wood inserts for the fireplace if this VC 0046 can not be saved.


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## mnowaczyk (Mar 1, 2009)

I got good heat out of my vc last night, but had to really work for it.  I loaded it w hardwood about 1 am, and saw some coals before having to feed baby at 6.  Going to try getting it going when done giving this bottle.  Looks like this vc is another baby to take care of.  I need something that will run through the night, and not need babying to get it up to heat.    Pretty coating of snow here this morning.  Hear my oil heater burning away like crazy.


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## mnowaczyk (Mar 1, 2009)

Redwolf: Oh hey. Don't feel bad about paying too much.  My local vc dealer says they only sell the monpelier which looks beautiful!  But read some reviews on that. Imagine if you paid over $2000 and sill got no heat!

Look at leonMSPT's posts.  He has apparently made mods to his VC 0044 / 0046 and seems to love it.  I'm convinced that one of my big problems is too much intake air (leaks).  

Has yours been overfired? Not that this would mean it has, but are those bars in front all warped?


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## LeonMSPT (Mar 1, 2009)

Well...  my opinions for what they're worth. 
*************

13 x 13 is allowing the stack velocity to fall off to near zero, draft actually through the insert is nearly zero as well, unless you've got a "direct connection" to the damper plate that is sealed meticulously. Even then, the draft is going to be less than with a full liner to the top of the chimney. The VC 0046 demands a large liner, 8 inches. Smaller and the thing is likely to be overdrafted when operating, smokey when loading, and prone to "puffbacks". It just won't work right, and could be a menace. 

My preference, as I've expressed numerous times in other posts, is rigid insulated liner through the straight section and insulated flex from the bottom of that to the insert. Blockoff plates are nice, I suppose, if you've got the time, money, and inclination. On an inside chimney with an insulated liner, and a well sealed top plate on the far end, I am not sure it's worth it. 

With an uninsulated liner, you leave yourself vulnerable to a "chimney fire" from old creosote remaining in the lined chimney. Nearly impossible to get it ALL out...  say you have a fire in the liner, any contact or near contact areas where there is creosote will ignite. Worthy to note too, that liner temperatures of 1000 degrees during "normal operation" are not unusual. Seeing that creosote will ignite when heated to about 650 degrees in the presence of air, seems a gimme that at some point something is going to burn on the outside of it. 

With the "direct connection" to clean the chimney properly, you're going to have to pull the insert. Dirty, time consuming, and leads to people not cleaning the chimney properly at the proper intervals. It's alot of work, and expensive if the sweep is going to pull the insert and reinstall it. Takes a long time with a hot fire to heat the brick and tile up, meantime all the smoke condensing on the walls is generating creosote. 

The liner is needed to properly draft the insert, and allow it to perform. I've read someplace and believe it to be true, that the chimney is the engine that drives the wood burner. Regardless of what it is, if the draft isn't sufficient you're not going to make heat in it. Dirty and cold burns are the enemy, as they deposit creosote at a rate that would amaze most. Maintaining a good draft through the entire burn it necessary, not just initially, mid burn, or late burn. 

The "damper" in the VC 0046 is only a 'bypass' to make the gasses pass between the two layers of refractory brick at the rear, past the secondary air intakes, where it burns with a roaring sound not unlike a train passing your house. It does little to nothing to slow or reduce the amount of air flowing through the insert into the chimney. 

Asking questions is how people avoid spending thousands of dollars to end up with something useless, or exceeding the cost-benefit ratio....  The only thing worse than spending thousands of dollars on useless results is to spend thousands of dollars on something that kills you, your family, or at the very least burns your house to the ground. I cannot emphasize enough, that there is a reason people stopped burning wood, coal, cow turds, and anything else, in favor of burning oil and natural gas, and electric heat. "Fire is dangerous. You can't just shut it off if something is wrong." 

Chimney physics....  

Taller = more draft
Smaller = more draft
Going from smaller to larger slows stack velocity, not usually a good thing, but sometimes it must be done and it seems to work if the difference isn't too large. I think 8 inch round to 13 x 13 is a fairly significant difference. Not to mention the corners...  gasses stall in the corners and stuff deposits there more quickly. Round generally stays cleaner. 

Doesn't take "much" secondary air to burn off the gasses...  mine is hooked to an eight inch liner, about 35 feet tall...  humungous draft..  When tearing my insert down this summer and rebuilding it, I am contriving a feed system with a valve on it...  I will post pictures as I think it's something that may be necessary when draft exceeds design specs to avoid overfiring. 

Generally, with an insert or stove keeping chimney temperatures higher will result in less creosote deposition and a cleaner system, less smoke to irritate neighbors and others. The top of the liner seems to be where it is coolest, and the largest creosote deposits will occur. 

Stove temperatures vary with the length and duration of the burn, rarely "constant" for more than maybe a third of the time.


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## mnowaczyk (Mar 2, 2009)

Thanks again LeoMSPT!  

I do want to line and insulate the chimney, but have been worried about possibly creating too much draft with my 45 foot chimney.  Did I mention that I can open the door with the damper down and not get smoke in the room?   Is that rediculous?  

I'm actually impressed at how clean my chimeny is burning.  I'm seeing NO SMOKE at all coming out the top.  I'm hoping that I'm getting a good secondary burn.  I tell ya... it's burning the wood right up.  

Want to know what I think is my problem, causing me not to get as much heat as with the other stove?  The top of my stove... that sheet metal that creates the convection air chambers... is basically open to the exterior air right now... no damper plate, no insulation, no fireplace exhaust to keep it warm (because of "direct connect", and there's no insulation on the outside of the insert (like on that other Vermont Stove Company).  Then again, I've only got one fan running right now.  So it's not functionint as designed.  

I'm learning.  

Hey... smaller liner = more draft?  There's got to be an equation or ration that relaves to chimney height, I'd think.  

Thanks!
Mike


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## LeonMSPT (Mar 2, 2009)

Ayuh,  Smaller sectional area generates more draft. Sounds wierd... but seems to be true. That said, for equal draft rates, a larger chimney will obviously remove more heat and gasses. Leading to the issue of puffbacks and smoke back in the house with the smaller liner sizes. 

I think you'll be more than happy with that insert, if it's functioning properly. It's "older" technology that was cutting edge when they did it. I found something interesting the other day... and now I can't find it...  

Table comparing efficiency ratings and emissions for inserts and fireplaces...   was surprised at the low emissions from this insert. Apparently, when it's working the way it is intended, it's as clean as a newer one. 

Not overly long burn times. Not much can be done about that, as the firebox is small. A very large chunk, with two smaller chunks, on a bed of hot coals, will give me about 6 hours of useful heat, and it will relight in 7 hours, but it's rare...  generally 5 hours or so, best. 



			
				mnowaczyk said:
			
		

> Thanks again LeoMSPT!
> 
> I do want to line and insulate the chimney, but have been worried about possibly creating too much draft with my 45 foot chimney.  Did I mention that I can open the door with the damper down and not get smoke in the room?   Is that rediculous?
> 
> ...


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## mnowaczyk (Mar 2, 2009)

Hey LeonMSPT:  How many splits do you burn in a day/24 hours?  

Midnight now, got rectangular splits tightly stacked, almost as good as a big round one. I fit 5 in there.  I know I shouldn't create creosote, but I'm dampering it down too in hopes of having at least a good bed of coals at 7 am.  

I gotta get a damper plate and a left fan in there.  - see they sell for 300 bucks, sound right?  

If I went back to the old stove I'd probably have 300 for the positive connection kit, and the only advantage I'd have would be good seals.  I need to find some links to get the stove adhesive and the seals.  That should be less than 50 bucks, right? 


Door airwash: that comes up from in front of the grate, right?


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## LeonMSPT (Mar 2, 2009)

Local hardware stores here have rope gasket material and adhesive...  not terribly expensive, but I don't by it. Relative in the business, just drop by the shop and ask. The adhesive is 6 or 7 bucks. 

Get a Dremel tool, borrow or buy it. Get two of the bullet shapes gray stones...  the channels are rounded on the VC, and they clean them up real good. Down to bare metal. I use a q-tip to apply a thin layer of the gasket cement to the door, press the gasket into place, and then put the door on the fire place and light her up. The heat will cure the cement. 

Don't stretch the rope gasket when you're applying it. Just mash it on there, and don't cut it to length until it's all fitted and glued except the end you're cutting. Run it right up to, and past, the other end, cut it with a good pair of scissors. I used "EMS Shears", but don't know if you would have access to a pair. Easily cut a penny in half with them. Leave mother's scissors out of it... 

If you burn hot enough, long enough, every day to burn off the creosote and soot on the door, you'll have few worries about creosote. Burning off a door in front of the fire, imagine what it's doing up in the liner/chimney system. 

How many in 24 hours? Depends on the size of the splits, but between 10 and 15 burning hot and hard. It's a few trips down and up the stairs with the wood bag. 




			
				mnowaczyk said:
			
		

> Hey LeonMSPT:  How many splits do you burn in a day/24 hours?
> 
> Midnight now, got rectangular splits tightly stacked, almost as good as a big round one. I fit 5 in there.  I know I shouldn't create creosote, but I'm dampering it down too in hopes of having at least a good bed of coals at 7 am.
> 
> ...


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## mnowaczyk (Mar 2, 2009)

I'm definitely buring a lot more.  A lot of my splits are small, but I think I'm averaging almost two per hour. I reloaded another 3 splits at 2 am (after my midnight 5), for a total of 7 between midnight and 7 am.  I had coals this morning, but not many.  So that's one per hour, but one per hour killed the fire.  I think my splits are too small.  This stove needs big splits, huh?


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## LeonMSPT (Mar 2, 2009)

With the small firebox, it's difficult to load many large chunks. I try to build a bed a coals during the evening, and before bed I put two medium splits and a larger one. I can eek 6-7 hours out of it with decent heat and no problem catching it at the end. With poor seals on the door gaskets you're burning more than it will when you get it sealed up. 

Word to the wise....   bust out the damper in the fireplace when you line the chimney. Try to come through the offset with insulated round flex, if at all possible. Some day, you may decide the VC isn't what you want. You might burn up more parts and decide to not put any more money in it. If you've relined your chimney, and gone through the offset with the large oval that came with the VC, you'll have a trouble adapting the 8 inch round to it. Save the oval you take off the original. If you can terminate inside the fireplace with 8 inch round, installing another insert will be a piece of cake. 



			
				mnowaczyk said:
			
		

> I'm definitely buring a lot more.  A lot of my splits are small, but I think I'm averaging almost two per hour. I reloaded another 3 splits at 2 am (after my midnight 5), for a total of 7 between midnight and 7 am.  I had coals this morning, but not many.  So that's one per hour, but one per hour killed the fire.  I think my splits are too small.  This stove needs big splits, huh?


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## mnowaczyk (Mar 2, 2009)

I took the damper plate out, but left the lentil.  Front of bricks to front of back bricks at the top of my fireplace is only 13 inches.  6.5 of brick and lentil (which slopes back and up pretty steeply at the back of that 6.5 inches), which leaves about 5 inches of clearnance for an oval duct.  I think 8" oval would fit easier than the connector for the VC, which was really tight.  I think I'd need to rip out not only the lentil, but also some bricks to get an 8" round through.  I know it makes most sense to bring through an 8 inch round, but it sounds like the work of a butcher to me.  


my house is one of about 115 houses in historic city neighborhood architected by DuPont in the teens through ~1930.  The neighborhood was initially a horse race track where the state fair was held until DuPont purchased it and designed it with a park-like feel (curvey streets in the middle of a city grid).  I got a steal on the house in this market.  the house is brick construction, but of course has wood joists and floors.  Nice to know the chimney is far from any kids rooms, and runs right through our bedroom.  Chimney sweep also said no liner is needed in this chimney... burn it up, and just call him once per year.  I"m working on getting him back here to look at the liner work, and to maybe give me a cleaning for safetey sake and to tell me how dirty i"ve benn burning for these last 40 days since he cleaned my chimney (probably 20 days of burning various ways: mostly open fire, vsc insert, and vc insert.  In any case< you've yet to get me worried of an iminent chimney fire.  I'm also not interested in butchering this house.  Sure, butchering the house is better than burning it down, but it's been so much work keeping this fire going, and my heat output has been such a bummer I'm not sure its all worth it.  Maybe I should just submit to the laziness of a gas insert, maybe ventless to get some heat out of it.  What a cop out, huh?

Sounds like everybody's stoves cool every morning, and they try to burn them hot each morning.  I'll be sure to do that for now.

So back to the issue...
Is that VC 13x6 duct a standard size that can be reduced?  Or must something custom be made?  You nust have handled this issue, right?  

Is your connector straight or 20 degree?


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## mnowaczyk (Mar 3, 2009)

LeonMSPT said:
			
		

> I think you'll be more than happy with that insert, if it's functioning properly. It's "older" technology that was cutting edge when they did it. I found something interesting the other day... and now I can't find it...
> 
> Table comparing efficiency ratings and emissions for inserts and fireplaces...   was surprised at the low emissions from this insert. Apparently, when it's working the way it is intended, it's as clean as a newer one.



LeonMSPT:
Do you recall what the emission rate was?  I was trying to find it in the manual, but it's not there.  It does say it's a 40,000 BTU stove.

Last night I said F it.  Let's fill it up, and let it burn wide open.  An hour later I had the best heat ever out of the stove.  The firebox was lighting the entire room, and the glass was burnt clean.  Of course when I came donwstairs this morning there was only a single coal in the ashes.  I guess I can look at it as getting something out of the stove for at least a short period.  The house has not burnt down yet either.  

I'm probably not going to burn any more until I get my sweep out here.  I hope to get the VC insert broken down a bit and maybe even fixed up, whether it be to get rid of it or re-install it.  Did I mention my wife really likes the looks of this one?  If she has to look at one all summer, this is the one she wants to look at.  

It's been fun burning and learning.  

Thanks for all your help!  

Hey... I can't get a response from the other fella who said he recently bought one of these and paid too much.  Did you get a hold of him?  For Parts?

Thanks,
Mike


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## redwolf (Mar 14, 2009)

Well, 

It's been a long road with this stove, but with the help of LeonMSPT its looking to be worth it. No there have not been any over burn problems with my old vc 46, but many seal issues. replaced all the seals because I could not control the burn rate and just flying thru the wood every day, with very little heat. After the seals were replaced I still have issues controlling the dampener, but slowly working them out. Going back to the seals, this made a huge difference in the heat output (cost me $18 for glue and all the seals), living in Michigan, in a house that is 102 years old, with no insulation, 2200 sq feet, and gas bill that was average $530 a month during winter season, keeping the house 65 deg. Once the stove work properly the house is 70 to 73 all the time. Boiler in the house has no kick on at all, as long as the stove is running. Burn time is about 4 to 5 hrs with med logs. I still have problems to work out, but it looks like it is worth it. A cord of wood runs around $160 and I may use 2 face cords per month, sending my heating bill down, saving around $400 a month. Oh, and by the way, having both fans working makes a big difference.


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## mnowaczyk (Mar 14, 2009)

Great information. Thank you!


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## LeonMSPT (Mar 14, 2009)

Sometimes the older units with a secondary burn area with intakes took alot of practice to make them stand up and sing. If it's not hot enough when you close the bypass damper, or you cut the air down to it too much, you don't get decent gas and airflow into the secondary burn area and it fizzles...  the insert will still get "hot" but not "HOT". 

Both fans will help...  biggest issue I've noticed is you have to let it get hot enough before switching the blowers on. 

My cousin called the other day...  "We had a customer call us with an insert like yours. They burned with the door gaskets missing...  It's over here if you want to come look and see if there's anything you want for parts out of what is still recognizable." 

Should have seen it...  middle support  drooped and broke in two...  horizontal support was big time toast...  had a three inch bent in it, and warped toward the front...  firebricks were in several pieces each. Front grates were kind of decent, so I took those. Bottom grate was broken in two, side to side...  but servicable, so I grabbed that.

Best thing was, the thing had a 20 degree offset adaptor! Still in good shape! Grabbed that in a big hurry. 

I am planning to pull mine as soon as the season ends and rebuild it...  one of my plans is to marry a box to the bottom back where the secondary air intake is, and put a flapper in with a choke cable to control the secondary combustion air. When the weather is slightly warmer I could allow more secondary air in without "losing control", and if I have a chimney fire, shut it off. Of it it's real cold and I want the heat, open it up and stand back. 



			
				redwolf said:
			
		

> Well,
> 
> It's been a long road with this stove, but with the help of LeonMSPT its looking to be worth it. No there have not been any over burn problems with my old vc 46, but many seal issues. replaced all the seals because I could not control the burn rate and just flying thru the wood every day, with very little heat. After the seals were replaced I still have issues controlling the dampener, but slowly working them out. Going back to the seals, this made a huge difference in the heat output (cost me $18 for glue and all the seals), living in Michigan, in a house that is 102 years old, with no insulation, 2200 sq feet, and gas bill that was average $530 a month during winter season, keeping the house 65 deg. Once the stove work properly the house is 70 to 73 all the time. Boiler in the house has no kick on at all, as long as the stove is running. Burn time is about 4 to 5 hrs with med logs. I still have problems to work out, but it looks like it is worth it. A cord of wood runs around $160 and I may use 2 face cords per month, sending my heating bill down, saving around $400 a month. Oh, and by the way, having both fans working makes a big difference.


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## mnowaczyk (Mar 15, 2009)

Great to hear LeonMSPT.  I assume there was no good left fan on that unit you found, right?  My chimney sweep comes on Tuesday to look at installing a liner.  While I'm pulling out the stove, its probably a good time to send it to the garage for a teardown to find out what's up with that fan and to replace the seals.  

You guys have been great.  Thanks!


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## mnowaczyk (Mar 16, 2009)

I just got home from 10 days in Florida, to the house set to 54 degrees.  In an effort to curb the oil it would take to get the house back up to 66-68, I cranked up the stove, even though I'd hoped I would no longer need the stove this season.  The 43 degree temp was too cold for me and I fired it up.  I was pretty happy with the heat.  Over about 5 hours, I only kicked the heat on about once for every degree.  The stove (with the bad seals and one broken blower) still did the majority of the work bringing about 1500 square feet of the house up to 67 degrees.  It was burning good and hot, and blowing some nice heat.  Now it seems that maybe I've built up a little too much ash.  I get some blowing out the doors and there seems to be enough to clog up the grates/bars in the front.  My burnign is much slower and colder today.  I've been working, so I have not been able to tend the fire much, but I think I've got too much ash.  

My question is:
How often do you guys clean out the ash?  Do you have any guides or rules of thumb you use?  I.E. The ash gets above the first bar on the front grate.  You have to clear cinders from the intake to the after burner.  The pan is full, etc.  

Here is a picture of what I had in my ash pan when my burn rate really slowed down... basically full.

Thanks,
Mike


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## mnowaczyk (Mar 16, 2009)

What's it take you fellas to clean off the glass?  How often do you run it that hot?  

I just piled the box high with small pieces of wood with space between them, put some close to the glass, and left the air wide open.  It did not clean the glass immediately, but when I walked back to the stove almost two hours later, it was clean (except for the sides where my seals are leaking).  It seems that just adding a log or two, with all my ash, was leading to buildup on the glass (too cool of a burn).  

Do you guys usually pile it high?  Or just load a log or two?

After emptying the ash pan, and loading it up twice... the house is up from 67 to 70 degrees.  Granted, it's 46 degrees outside right now.  It seems I'm learning how to use this insert.  I guess you guys ahve already figure it out, huh?


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## LeonMSPT (Mar 17, 2009)

I don't let the ash pile up in the pan enough to clog things. When I add wood, I sweep the ash around and if it's slow dropping, I clean the ash pan out. 

If you shake it back and forth a little, it comes out without pushing the top off the pile down behind it...  

I use the Rutland glass cleaner, lotion stuff, blue...  like oven top cleaner and barbecue grill cleaner. 

Wipe with a damp paper towel to get the ash off the glass and loose stuff...  then use a damp paper towel with a dollop of cleaner on it about the size of a quarter or fifty cent piece. Wipe until the glass is "clean" then buff off with a dry paper towel. Makes it pretty slippery after and stuff doesn't stick on it so easy. Wipes off clean next time too. Each time it puts another layer on. 



			
				DelBurner said:
			
		

> What's it take you fellas to clean off the glass?  How often do you run it that hot?
> 
> I just piled the box high with small pieces of wood with space between them, put some close to the glass, and left the air wide open.  It did not clean the glass immediately, but when I walked back to the stove almost two hours later, it was clean (except for the sides where my seals are leaking).  It seems that just adding a log or two, with all my ash, was leading to buildup on the glass (too cool of a burn).
> 
> ...


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## mnowaczyk (Mar 17, 2009)

Thanks again LeonMSPT.  I think I read that you can get the stove hot enough to cook off the glass if you want.  I was wondering what you do to get yours hottest.  Load 'er up, open the air, how long or hot do you wait before engaging after burner?  Immediately?  

I got the glass pretty clean with a hot burn, and want to know how to consistently and easily get a hot burn.  

Chimney sweep comes tomorrow, so I've got to let 'er burn down now.  Can't wait to see how dirty the chimney is, and what he wants to install a liner.  I think he wants to permanently alter the smoke chamber in my firebplace, which I'm not too keen on.  I'd like to know I can easily, very easily switch back to an open fireplace.


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## LeonMSPT (Mar 17, 2009)

I busted the bejesus out of the smoke chamber in the two I relined and redid "slammer" installs in. My father and my buddy wouldn't go back to an open fireplace for anything, or a slammer for that matter. The insert and liner just works too good to go back. 

Need a bed of coals, fresh load of wood, and wait until it's burning before you close the bypass...  don't shut the air off but adjust the air during the initial burn for the burn temperature you want. As the insert cools off, the bimetallic springs will open the air supply in front...  when you reload, they'll open more until the insert gets hot again, then close themselves. 

A bed of coals under a load of burning wood allows lots of gas to pass by the secondary air supplies beneath the bricks in back. 

I have a crack in one of mine. It's fun to sit and watch the white flames inside the chamber through it... but will replace it this summer during the down time. 



			
				DelBurner said:
			
		

> Thanks again LeonMSPT.  I think I read that you can get the stove hot enough to cook off the glass if you want.  I was wondering what you do to get yours hottest.  Load 'er up, open the air, how long or hot do you wait before engaging after burner?  Immediately?
> 
> I got the glass pretty clean with a hot burn, and want to know how to consistently and easily get a hot burn.
> 
> Chimney sweep comes tomorrow, so I've got to let 'er burn down now.  Can't wait to see how dirty the chimney is, and what he wants to install a liner.  I think he wants to permanently alter the smoke chamber in my firebplace, which I'm not too keen on.  I'd like to know I can easily, very easily switch back to an open fireplace.


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## Fiseboy (Jan 16, 2011)

Does anyone know the dimensions to this insert.  I'm looking at one on craiglist and need to know if it will fit in my fireplace.  The dimensions of my fireplace are 31w x 31t x 23d
Thanks


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## LeonMSPT (Jan 17, 2011)

I am in Kenai, Alaska, about 5,000 miles from it currently. 

But I think it's 28" wide, 21" tall and 18 or so inches deep, but it's been two years since I had any reason to measure it...  checking to see if I have any pictures of it apart with a tape in the frame...  it would allow you to compute based on pixel size with the scale of the rule...  the dimensions. 





			
				Fiseboy said:
			
		

> Does anyone know the dimensions to this insert.  I'm looking at one on craiglist and need to know if it will fit in my fireplace.  The dimensions of my fireplace are 31w x 31t x 23d
> Thanks


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## mnowaczyk (Jan 17, 2011)

I uploaded the manuals at the link below.  Ignore the JPG pictures of the stove I sold.  (I made these scans before selling the stove.)

http://www.mknconsulting.com/ftp/files/vc_0044/


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