# How can I save money on this wood insert install?



## insert_install_help (Jan 13, 2016)

My dad gave me his old free standing Grizzly stove (which I removed the pedestal and am trying to use it as an insert in my fireplace).

I called around to get this stove installed and I could not find anywhere that would install a stove that was not purchased through them.  I finally found a reputable family stove business who came out and gave me an estimate, and this is what I ended up with (this is in Annapolis, MD by the way):

-Round Boot 8" (BOOT-R8) - $132.00

-LS825 25" x 8" Liner only -  $ 689.00

-FOREVER FLEX KIT (CAP w/no screen no Windguard, 13 x13 no sag no leak top plate and appliance connector - $705.00

-Firebox Modifications (any alteration to existing firebox) - $325.00

-Wood Chimney Cleaning of a Wood burning Fireplace or stove - $175.00

-Wood Stove Instal... Wood Stove Install w/chimney system - $930.00

-Sales Tax (6%) - $91.56

TOTAL - $3047.56 - $95.00 site eval refund= $2952.56

So, my questions:

1. Is this overpriced? $3000 without including the stove!?  Are they charging too much for parts? Labor? $325 extra to knock out the smoke wall? $1250 total labor?

2. How can I save money on this?  Is the cleaning necessary (since they just going to run a liner up the dirty chimney)?  Is there concern with going with a cheaper liner or Flex kit?

3.  Anyone know of any company in MD that will install a stove not purchased through them (cheaper than $3000)?

I didn't expect it to cost this much, and we have a baby on the way, so I'm trying to determine if this is worth it.

Thank you.


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## mellow (Jan 13, 2016)

Not worth it to install that old non-epa insert, even DIY it would not be worth it.  I would sell that stove on CL and get what you can for it and use that towards buying a new or newer used insert that you will be much happier with, especially with a pregnant momma in the house.

You are doing the right thing by trying to get quotes for a professional to install it instead of just slamming it into the fireplace and trying to use it that way as so many people do and then come on here after having chimney fires (me included).

The problem being that old insert requires a larger 8" liner and a special boot to attach it to the stove, most newer modern epa stoves will use a 6" liner.  And will your homeowners insurance cover you with that stove installed?

Do some reading on here and you might be able to pickup a used insert and install it yourself, but I will still answer your questions.

1. No
2. Cleaning is absolutely necessary, there are cheaper liners, forever flex is a good liner, thin walled liners will not last as long.
3. Check http://www.csia.org/ and http://www.ncsg.org/

This is really the worst time of year to be looking at doing this, the installers are not hungry as they are busy and stove dealers are not hungry either, I would recommend waiting till spring/summer if you want to buy another insert, new or used.

A quick look on CL brought this up, not a bad deal on an older Avalon if it is in good condition (would be better than that Grizzly and uses a 6" liner):  http://annapolis.craigslist.org/for/5380649597.html


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## DAKSY (Jan 13, 2016)

Something IS wrong with this estimate. They quoted you a liner & the quoted you a cap that cost MORE than the liner.
Most liner kits COME with a cap, mounting plate & adapter, so WHY do you need TWO liners?
 I would definitely have them re-visit that part of the quote.
I would ask them how many hours they've estimated for this install.
$1250 / 8hrs = $156.25/hr. For a two-man crew, that's not bad.
Less than 8 hours? Starting to get pricey.
I would ask them about the "IF ANY" modifications to the firebox as well.
What if the "AREN'T ANY?" Is that $325 returned? 
If you can get a chimney sweep out to take care of the cleaning part, he may well give you a better
price for the install...


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## insert_install_help (Jan 13, 2016)

mellow said:


> Not worth it to install that old non-epa insert, even DIY it would not be worth it.  I would sell that stove on CL and get what you can for it and use that towards buying a new or newer used insert that you will be much happier with, especially with a pregnant momma in the house.
> 
> You are doing the right thing by trying to get quotes for a professional to install it instead of just slamming it into the fireplace and trying to use it that way as so many people do and then come on here after having chimney fires (me included).
> 
> ...


Thanks for your input.  So, do you think a non-EPA stove will not be efficient?  Should I worry about the emissions coming into the house or just being released outside (from the chimney)?  Is the 8" output not as efficient?


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## insert_install_help (Jan 13, 2016)

DAKSY said:


> Something IS wrong with this estimate. They quoted you a liner & the quoted you a cap that cost MORE than the liner.
> Most liner kits COME with a cap, mounting plate & adapter, so WHY do you need TWO liners?
> I would definitely have them re-visit that part of the quote.
> I would ask them how many hours they've estimated for this install.
> ...



I'll ask about the Flex kit.  I THINK that kit is the insulation, block off plate, top plate, cap, adapter, but doesn't include the liner itself.  So, do you think liner, insulation, caps, plate, adapters are overpriced at $1400 total?

The firebox modification is necessary since he said they'll need to knock out the smoke wall (because the damper is too small to fit the 8" liner/adapter through.

I asked how long the job would take, and he said about 3 hours, but I'm not sure how guys he'll have with him.  I'm not sure if that installation cost is just the labor, but I need to call and ask.


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## bholler (Jan 13, 2016)

I agree with dansky the quote does not make sense.  I would have them clarify.  And for that old stove i would absolutly not use a light wall like the forever flex they are proposing that beast will burn it out pretty quick.  And make sure they are going to insulate and do a block off plate.


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## bholler (Jan 13, 2016)

insert_install_help said:


> Thanks for your input. So, do you think a non-EPA stove will not be efficient?


It absolutely will not be



insert_install_help said:


> Should I worry about the emissions coming into the house or just being released outside (from the chimney)?


As long as it is set up right then yes it will all be outside 



insert_install_help said:


> Is the 8" output not as efficient?


It is the stove not the 8" liner



insert_install_help said:


> I'll ask about the Flex kit. I THINK that kit is the insulation, block off plate, top plate, cap, adapter, but doesn't include the liner itself. So, do you think liner, insulation, caps, plate, adapters are overpriced at $1400 total?


For 8" forever flex it sounds a little high yes


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## browneyesvictim (Jan 13, 2016)

That does seem over priced with "loose ends" as mentioned. But, installing a non EPA stove isn't going to go over in getting it permitted or approved by insurance company. Honestly, I'm surprised you found someone that would "professionally" install it at all. For that reason, I'd ditch the Grizzly and find a more efficient stove (used) that in long run you will be more be more happy with.

If you want to save a lot of money, go the DIY route. I'm sure glad I did! There is lots of information and resources here on what you need to do and how to do it correctly. You didn't state what you are starting with, but you can (and should) clean your own chimney, install your own insulated liner, get your own permit, and install the insert yourself. Hire your own "helper" for the dirty work and heavy lifting if you need to. Consult your insurance company on what they require though. Some require that they are professionally installed.


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## jatoxico (Jan 13, 2016)

I'm with Mellow that unit should be put aside. Regardless of the quote that stove takes an 8" liner when most new ones use 6" so you're locking yourself in there. In addition they're quoting $325 to make mods to it which is close to half of the off-season price of some pretty decent new EPA units.

The alternative would be to research here doing it yourself on the cheap.


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## begreen (Jan 13, 2016)

+2 How large an area will be heated? If it's not very large I'd consider selling the Grizzly and get a decent $1000 insert that takes 6" liner. The prerequisite being that a modern stove is going to need fully seasoned wood to burn correctly. 

PS: Is this in a masonry fireplace?


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## bholler (Jan 13, 2016)

browneyesvictim said:


> But, installing a non EPA stove isn't going to go over in getting it permitted or approved by insurance company. Honestly, I'm surprised you found someone that would "professionally" install it at all.


We do it all the time there is no liability issues with it as long as you do it to nfpa regulations.

For a point of reference we just did an install with 20' of 6" armor flex insulated with block off plate for $2300 roughly.  8" would be pushing $2500 or $2600 but that is with armor flx which is 30% to 40% more than forever flex.  So the more i look at it that is to high for sure.  It really looks like you are getting charged for the liner twice to me.


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## browneyesvictim (Jan 13, 2016)

bholler said:


> We do it all the time there is no liability issues with it as long as you do it to nfpa regulations.


Hmmm... Interesting.... As it is in Oregon its a DEQ requirement thing. Oregon Administrative Rules chapter 340, division 262. There are other codes besides nfpa that have to be considered as well. Either way, you look at it, there are more reasons to go with a more efficient stove than the Grizzly.


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## bholler (Jan 13, 2016)

browneyesvictim said:


> Hmmm... Interesting.... As it is in Oregon its a DEQ requirement thing. Oregon Administrative Rules chapter 340, division 262.


Yes but he is in MD not OR.



browneyesvictim said:


> There are other codes besides nfpa that have to be considered as well.


Yes but the codes that cover installing an unlisted appliance are covered by nfpa 211.  Of course you need to follow any other applicable codes but in most areas there are no other ones that apply.


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## mellow (Jan 13, 2016)

I was quoted about the same when I first started out and wanted a liner put on my old non-epa stove, it came in around $3000 back in 2007 and we are talking about Annapolis here so I took that into consideration with the pricing, everything is higher due to it being a high income area and it being peak season.

Looks like he was quoted this for the liner:  http://www.woodheat.com/products/ve.../8-x25-316ti-stainless-steel-liner-ls825.html

If the forever flex kit does include insulation for 25ft of 8" 1/2" and install of the insulation it makes that number a bit more palatable.

If you ask me this was a price to get you off their backs and to UPGRADE you to buy a new stove.


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## insert_install_help (Jan 13, 2016)

begreen said:


> +2 How large an area will be heated? If it's not very large I'd consider selling the Grizzly and get a decent $1000 insert that takes 6" liner. The prerequisite being that a modern stove is going to need fully seasoned wood to burn correctly.
> 
> PS: Is this in a masonry fireplace?




House is 2500sqft split foyer.  The fireplace is brick and in the basement.  Since the basement is ‘open’ to the first floor, it would essentially be heating the whole house.


I have oil heat which works really well (albeit expensive), but since the thermostat is upstairs, the vents are in the floor/ceiling, the basement never gets as hot as upstairs, and the fireplace heat is does not heat more than a few feet passed the fireplace.


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## insert_install_help (Jan 13, 2016)

I thought I got a deal getting this stove for free, but you guys are making me re-think this.


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## mellow (Jan 13, 2016)

Yea, I thought I got a deal on a truck for $1.00, you don't want to know how much it cost in parts and time to get it through MD inspection


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## jatoxico (Jan 13, 2016)

mellow said:


> If you ask me this was a price to get you off their backs and to UPGRADE you to buy a new stove.


Yup. Stove shops sell stoves. A sweep might be more realistic. Stills leaves you with an 8" liner.


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## begreen (Jan 13, 2016)

Well, the good news is that oil is relatively cheap right now so you have time to think on this. If the fireplace will accommodate a 3 cu ft stove that would be the better way to go. The larger size will cost more of course. What are the fireplace dimensions?


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## bholler (Jan 13, 2016)

I am also curious if it was a freestander what outlet does it have?  I have never seen a frestanding stove that did not take either round or oval pipe


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Jan 13, 2016)

You are getting some good information from the seasoned veterans here.  I started out the same exact way that you are a few months ago (but I had purchased an 80's vintage Vermont Castings Resolute off of CL in 2014 because it was the stove that I grew up with and worked to feed for 20 years, and it kept the basement toasty warm!).  After spending a couple of weeks researching in October 2015, I ended up getting four estimates from stove shops and sweeps, then decided to ditch the old inefficient stove, and get an efficient EPA model and do the install 100% myself.  I got a Canadian build stove off the internet (figured that Canadians would know how to build a stove, the price was _right, _and I felt comfortable with the brand based on some Hearth.com comments about the company  The insert was delivered along with the liner system, free delivery, off the back of a freight truck about a week after I ordered it.  I wanted to insulate the liner based on the posts that I read here, so I had to order that separately, it arrived about a week after that.  After going up on the roof three times, I decided that I was not comfortable trying to wrestle the 25' insulated liner into the chimney from the steep pitch of the roof, so I rented a boom lift.  I decided to cut the iron damper frame out, and took care of that with an angle grinder and sawzall.  On the day that I dropped the chimney liner, I couldn't get the appliance connector lined up with the socket at the top of the stove, so I knocked a couple of the bricks out, although i was determined not to do that at the beginning.  Finally, got everything lined up and had the first fire-_wonderful_!.  It has been an adventure, and I went way outside my comfort zone getting it done, but it has been worth it.  I suspect that you will be disappointed if you go in with the expectation that you are going to heat your whole house with the stove, but don't let that stop you.  The entire place is more comfortable because of the stove, and you will reduce your oil bill, but your expectations might be of a space heater for the room that the stove is in, rather than a replacement for your furnace.  I have some recent hard earned experience (no disasters, but only a few things went effortlessly as planned).  Good luck with your adventure.  You have come to the right place to get years of experience based wisdom on the topic.


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## insert_install_help (Jan 14, 2016)

Thank you everybody for taking time to give me all this helpful information.  I think I'm going to cancel the install, and just wait until the off-season to deal with this.  That Grizzly stove essentially heated the first 2 floors of our house growing up, so I thought it would have no problem heating my house, but it seems like it's just not worth paying $3K to install something not ideal.

So, do you guys think it would be possible to find a GOOD (new) EPA approved insert during the offseason and have it installed ALL for less than $3K?

I know that my dad and I could do the install ourselves (my dad built every house I grew up in himself [foundation, framing, plumbing, electrical, etc..]) BUT... I've learned that sometimes it just not worth the time and effort to do something that will take me days with lots of potential to make mistakes (and up spending money on things I would never think about, like Ed on the boom lift).  Plus my Dad is in his 70s now so he's slowing down, and getting on the roof with him will give me flashbacks to my childhood .  So, I'm still weighing it out, but my thought is to find someone to do it at a fair price.


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## mellow (Jan 14, 2016)

If you do it yourself, $3K is absolutely doable, and it isn't really that bad of an install once you figure out how it is done, unless you need a professional install for your insurance to cover it.  You can get a new budget insert in the $1500-$2000 range that will be leaps and bounds better than that grizzly and last for 20+ years.  25ft insulated liner and all the install parts will be around $1000.00.

I think it would be wise for you to wait and read the previous insert install threads on here and make the right informed decision.

Heck, maybe in the meantime a used BK princess insert will show up on CL for cheap, that is my holy grail find, been waiting 3 years to find one for under $2K


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## browneyesvictim (Jan 14, 2016)

Mellow is right on the money! Of course there are many factors... You should absolutely be under 3K if you do it yourself with a USED UL listed stove. Buying a NEW insert of the size you want would be a stretch for 3K for a complete install.

As a thought.. and perhaps this is already obvious, but- You are used to that Grizzly as it was used as a freestanding stove and all of the radiant heat went into the room as it is exposed on all sides plus whatever came off the stovepipe. It probably did a great job of heating that way as you experienced! Not to knock the Grizzley at all really... But as an insert in an existing fireplace, things change a bit to rely more on a convection effect- that circulates cold air in the bottom and warm air out the top. With the surround installed you pretty much just have the door and face exposed to the room and maybe a blower to help circulate it. You will find most of the modern inserts are jacketed or double walled, and there are clearances to consider as well. Also,there's no secondary reburn. ... But I digress.

It will take you days or weeks, and there will be potential to make mistakes. But you CAN do it if you read up, shop around, get informed and start planning. Measure up your fireplace and hearth dimensions so you know what will fit within clearance requirements of each stove. Look at your damper and throat areal and see what you are starting with and what modifications you will need to do to get your new liner in. Take pictures and start a new thread with your progress and questions you will have. Let CL be your friend for a while. (Actually, I like searchtempest.com better as has a better filter and it looks at all surrounding areas and other options.) Surely you can find someone to do the work for you at a price that only you can say is of value to you.


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## mellow (Jan 14, 2016)

bholler said:


> I have never seen a frestanding stove that did not take either round or oval pipe



Looked to me like it has a rectangle exhaust and the rectangle to round boot is missing?

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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Jan 14, 2016)

insert_install_help said:


> Thank you everybody for taking time to give me all this helpful information.  I think I'm going to cancel the install, and just wait until the off-season to deal with this.  That Grizzly stove essentially heated the first 2 floors of our house growing up, so I thought it would have no problem heating my house, but it seems like it's just not worth paying $3K to install something not ideal.
> 
> So, do you guys think it would be possible to find a GOOD (new) EPA approved insert during the offseason and have it installed ALL for less than $3K?
> 
> I know that my dad and I could do the install ourselves (my dad built every house I grew up in himself [foundation, framing, plumbing, electrical, etc..]) BUT... I've learned that sometimes it just not worth the time and effort to do something that will take me days with lots of potential to make mistakes (and up spending money on things I would never think about, like Ed on the boom lift).  Plus my Dad is in his 70s now so he's slowing down, and getting on the roof with him will give me flashbacks to my childhood .  So, I'm still weighing it out, but my thought is to find someone to do it at a fair price.


The professional installation is expensive, that is why I did it myself, and I was highly motivated for some reason on this project. I think the motivation factor is a must if you end up doing a self-install based on my experience.  My Dad is in his mid-eighties, and he had a powerful urge to help.  In his mind, he is still 40 years younger, and that makes things interesting!  And when I started, I wouldn't have even considered the boom lift, but once I had it in my mind (and the new stove in the garage!) that it was going to get done, I just pushed through it.  Don't let the insights that you are getting here discourage you, just go into it with the knowledge that it will likely be a challenge.  The payoff is huge, especially if you remember how great it was having that Grizzley warming the house when you were a kid.  It won't be exactly the same, but certain parts are better.  The old stove always had dirty glass and went through a lot of wood.  This new one always has clean glass, and I can see the gasses burning providing heat that probably just went up the chimney with the old one.  And there is no substitute for that wood heat!


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## bholler (Jan 14, 2016)

I am not at all against people doing diy installs but i feel many one here give a false sense that it is always easy.  Yes there are ones that we can do in 3 hours or so but we have also had 3 day liner installs.  Most of the time we know it is going to be a problem on ones that are that bad but there are times that even we get surprised.   If you are planning to do it yourself look over everything really well any offset can cause big problems at times.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Jan 15, 2016)

bholler said:


> I am not at all against people doing diy installs but i feel many one here give a false sense that it is always easy.  Yes there are ones that we can do in 3 hours or so but we have also had 3 day liner installs.  Most of the time we know it is going to be a problem on ones that are that bad but there are times that even we get surprised.   If you are planning to do it yourself look over everything really well any offset can cause big problems at times.


Right on, bholler- mine took three days, and when I started I was thinking it was going to be four hours at most.  If the chimney had been just little bit different, I'd have had to call in the pros, get a different chimney liner, etc.  And once I was on the clock with the boom rental, the pressure was on.  Things like knocking bricks out of the smoke chamber, making cuts through the cast iron damper box, were all deviations from what I thought I was going to do going in.  And I had thought long and hard when I was putting the plan together.  And this doesn't even account for how scary it can be trying to handle thing that require two hands when you are 30 feet up in the air.  The trouble with DIY projects is, many times, you are doing something for the first time, and experience would have really helped.


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