# FREE Chain oil



## Extremebison (Dec 31, 2010)

I thought I would share one of my $ saving tricks.  Many may be doing this already.  It's my turn to give a little back to this community as you all help me alot.  I have only been here a week.

I use my used motor oil out of our vehicles for chain oil.  I even have a chainsaw mill were I run this oil in Husky's 3120, with a 36 inch bar.  I get the best bar life with this oil.  My chain stays cool and lubed up even when cutting 16 foot timbers on my mill.   I have not purchased bar oil know for over 10yrs.  Your all probally doing this already, just though I'd share a money saving tip.  It does not need black streaks on the wood.  I run a Duramax and my wife a VW TDI, thats were most of my used oil is coming from so it's black oil coming out of those engines.   I don't even bother to filter it or clean it, out of the engine then into 4L oil jugs and out to the wood lot.


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## mywaynow (Dec 31, 2010)

Been doing that all my adult life.  My original bar lasted almost 8 years of moderate/mild use.  Recently bought actual chain lube and found it to be way too thick.  Decided to mix it with the used motor oil (synthetic) and found it to be too thick still.  Once I finish the container of chain lube I will never buy another.


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## muncybob (Dec 31, 2010)

I had thought about it but as stated the store bought lube is fairly thick and me still being somewhat "green" with chainsaws I just figured that's the way it's meant to be?? I am frequently taking use oil to TSC but if 5-30 car engine oil isn't too thin then I'll use that. Is this weight oil acceptable? Is there anything in the store lube that my used engine oil won't have that I need? I don't have a problem for the $6/gallon price of chain lube but I'm all for recycling!


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## mywaynow (Dec 31, 2010)

This lubricating system is quite crude.  Think about what the chain is going through- wood, dirt etc.  The lube simply reduces friction between the bar and the chain guides.  There is alot of tolerance in that relationship.  The only thing I would say that chain lube won't do, that waste oil does, is spit off the nose of the bar when there is no cutting but high rpms.  I find that to be a method of checking that oil is in the system;  if I am concerned about the lube, I point the saw at a cut end and rev it up.  If the oil is there, it will show up on the log.  I use a resevoir of gas and oil evenly regardless of what lube I run.  By the way, I am getting an inventory of waste oil, so I am driving more than cutting.  Gotta change that this weekend.


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## DanCorcoran (Dec 31, 2010)

I'm not sure why the engineers who design chainsaws would want us to use thicker oil than that needed for technical reasons.  Chainsaw companies don't refine crude oil to make bar lube, nor does it seem logical that they'd be in cahoots with refiners, so they don't have a financial incentive.  Using thinner oil may work, but it can't be as good for the bar, chain, and saw as the bar lube which is spec'd.

Maybe one of the engineers on this forum can shed some light on this.


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## ChrisN (Dec 31, 2010)

I've used vegetable oil with good success. It has about the same viscosity as bar oil but is a lot cheaper.  Also it doesn't spray petroleum based oil all over the woodlot.


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## Sisu (Dec 31, 2010)

Is chain oil really that expensive?  Also, chain oil comes in various viscosities based on the season.  There are many reasons why used motor oil is considered hazardous waste.  I send it for recycling, rather than reusing it as chain oil.  That means that I am not exposing myself/family to the used oil carcinogens etc. and I am not polluting the bush with it.  As woodburners, we should all strive to be good stewards of the forest.


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## smokinj (Dec 31, 2010)

I filter mine through old jeans (Tip from lee) or  coffee filters (tip from MMAUL Aaron) cleans the oil up quite a bit.


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## JustWood (Dec 31, 2010)

Sisu said:
			
		

> Is chain oil really that expensive?  Also, chain oil comes in various viscosities based on the season.  There are many reasons why used motor oil is considered hazardous waste.  I send it for recycling, rather than reusing it as chain oil.  That means that I am not exposing myself/family to the used oil carcinogens etc. and I am not polluting the bush with it.  As woodburners, we should all strive to be good stewards of the forest.


EPA does not consider it hazardous waste.
IF there were carcinogens in the oil , it's already in the air from being in your engine.
Exhaust = in the air.


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## mywaynow (Dec 31, 2010)

I am all for ecological sensitivity.  However, if you look at anyplace where there has been wood cutting on my part, there is no sign of impact from my activities.  Is chain lube a petroleum base?  I assume it is, but will check.  I do love the idea of vegetable oil though!  I am going to check further into that idea.  As far as cost goes, the chain lube at gallon rates is over twice the cost of gasonline.  We can all agree gas is expensive right?  Even though use is likely 60% of the gas while cutting, it all adds up.  I believe my impact on the environment is a very positive one considering I am not burning much oil as a result of my efforts in wood cutting (never cutting a live tree!).


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## ddug (Dec 31, 2010)

30 years ago I worked at a saw shop and the old boys in the back were always grumbling about folks using used oil as they were trying to repair/ replace non-functioning oil pumps. I am all for recycling but used motor oil is pretty much broken down and contains a lot of heavy metal carcinogens that you are dumping into the environment and your lungs. Bar oil contains additives that keep it sticky and prevent it from flying off the chain at high speeds, and at about 6 bucks a gallon it is one of the least expensive aspects of running a saw.

I'm not running a mill though, so a gallon lasts me quite awhile.


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## JustWood (Dec 31, 2010)

ddug said:
			
		

> 30 years ago I worked at a saw shop and the old boys in the back were always grumbling about folks using used oil as they were trying to repair/ replace non-functioning oil pumps. I am all for recycling but used motor oil is pretty much broken down and contains a lot of heavy metal carcinogens that you are dumping into the environment and your lungs. Bar oil contains additives that keep it sticky and prevent it from flying off the chain at high speeds, and at about 6 bucks a gallon it is one of the least expensive aspects of running a saw.
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> I'm not running a mill though, so a gallon lasts me quite awhile.




......... and the heavy metals come from where???????????


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## CountryBoy19 (Dec 31, 2010)

DanCorcoran said:
			
		

> I'm not sure why the engineers who design chainsaws would want us to use thicker oil than that needed for technical reasons.  Chainsaw companies don't refine crude oil to make bar lube, nor does it seem logical that they'd be in cahoots with refiners, so they don't have a financial incentive.  Using thinner oil may work, but it can't be as good for the bar, chain, and saw as the bar lube which is spec'd.
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> Maybe one of the engineers on this forum can shed some light on this.



I haven't ever seen any proof that b&c oil increases b&c life over used motor oil. It still could increase life, but it is likely only a marginal increase.

Now consider this, how many gallon of b&c oil do you go through for 1 bar and X number of chains? It's a LOT. If you can save $y/gal * Z gallons of oil, you can easily afford to buy a new b&c a little bit earlier than if you were using b&c oil.

This was discussed on arboristsite a while back and the wear argument and the mess argument were the only two that were even remotely credible.

IMHO, if you can tolerate the black sticky mess all over, then using used motor oil will always be more economical than buying b&c oil.

ETA, I used some rough calculations on amount of oil used per bar/chain life and I discover that at $5 per gallon your B&C life must be cut in half in order for it to be more economical to buy B&C oil. If you're paying $10/gal your life must be cut to 1/4.

The oil pump argument is BS. This oil just came out of a car where it was passed through very tight tolerance bearings made out of very soft metals. If that oils doesn't screw up the bearings in your engine it's not going to screw up your oil pump, period.


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## CountryBoy19 (Dec 31, 2010)

Sisu said:
			
		

> Is chain oil really that expensive?  Also, chain oil comes in various viscosities based on the season.  There are many reasons why used motor oil is considered hazardous waste.  I send it for recycling, rather than reusing it as chain oil.  That means that I am not exposing myself/family to the used oil carcinogens etc. and I am not polluting the bush with it.  As woodburners, we should all strive to be good stewards of the forest.



And just what do you think happens to that oil when it gets recycled?

It gets burned to heat somebody's shop somewhere, and all those pollutants etc are thrown up into the air. I'd rather have a little bit of oil in a pile of saw-chips somewhere in the woods than floating around in the air that I breath.


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## billb3 (Dec 31, 2010)

Ca, RI and Ma consider used motor oil a hazardous waste. Mostly for handling issues/ safety  from what I've read.

 Bar oil should partially be decomposed by microbial actions as long as large amounts of it don't get flushed into streams and groundwater where it can't be  decomposed. Percentages is the problem there.
Waste o il gets , filtered , cleaned re-refined into a number of products for multiple uses, some probably returns as bar oil.  

I've tried some of the vegetable/cellulose base bar oil and had oil pump issues at the same time (most likely not related to each other) . Quart is still sitting on the shelf waiting for me to be adventurous again . 
If I cut more and had two saws I'd probably be a bit less conservative with my experiments.


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## Sisu (Dec 31, 2010)

shamelessLEE said:
			
		

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It is all about managing risk.  There are voluntary and involuntary risks.  There are things we are exposed to everyday that we have no control over.  Yes there are potential carcinogens coming out of my chainsaw and auto exhaust.  That is something that I have no real control over (unless I went old-school using a swede saw and horse).  However, I can make a choice as to what I use for chain oil.  Why would I want to add to my exposure.  

There are many contaminants contained in waste oil that are not coming out of your engine exhaust.  In Canada, waste used oil is not allowed to be dumped in regular household waste.  If I change my own oil, I have to dispose of it as "household hazardous waste" which is collected and sent for recycling.  I am sure it is similar in the US.  According to the EPA, the amount in one oil change can contaminate a million gallons of fresh water.  You might not be cutting near a watercourse, but rain/snow melt runoff can carry it to surfacewater and even groundwater.


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## ddug (Dec 31, 2010)

> ......... and the heavy metals come from where???????????



Umm,  the motor?

http://www.purdue.edu/envirosoft/housewaste/house/motoroil.htm


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## Sisu (Dec 31, 2010)

CountryBoy19 said:
			
		

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When it is recycled, the oil is re-refined.  Contaminants are separated in the refining process.  Here in Ontario, the burning of waste motor oil is banned. The waste motor oil used as bar oil could end up in the water you drink, absorbed through your skin, and/or breathed from when you burn your wood in the stove.  In my opinion, the negatives out weigh the benefits.


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## JustWood (Dec 31, 2010)

Sisu said:
			
		

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What do you think blacktop is made from?
How about tar and chip for dirt roads? The cheapest oil on the market = used oil.
Waste oil is accepted at landfills. Where do you think contaminated soil from brownfields goes.
Ever been to a scrap yard? Literally hundreds of gallons of used oil all over the ground daily.
How about your local Pull-a-Part junk yard. Waste oil everywhere.
What about the oil/sludge from car washes? It just goes to a sewer plant.
The heavy metal theory is bunk. Most engine wear occurs on the exhaust side of the cylinder. There's more in the air already than ever could be contained in the oil.


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## maverick06 (Dec 31, 2010)

the heavy metal "theory" is fact.... how much of a concern it is and if you choose to worry about it are separate issues for each to make. 

I would not run the oil for the same reason i dont mix it with my home heating oil and burn it there, the cost savings are tiny, and if it harms the associated equipment, its very expensive. I dont see it being a reasonably gamble, and I would love to be able to find a use for it!


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## ddug (Dec 31, 2010)

> The heavy metal theory is bunk.



I doubt you could find a scientist who would dispute the fact that used motor oil is loaded with carcinogens, including heavy metals. What would be their motivation to post false data?

Weather it is a big concern or not is a different matter. You are all free to make your own choices, it just doesn't seem worth it to me considering the cost of a gallon of new bar oil.


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## JustWood (Dec 31, 2010)

maverick06 said:
			
		

> the heavy metal "theory" is fact.... how much of a concern it is and if you choose to worry about it are separate issues for each to make.
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EPA actually approves of it being burned in diesel engines and HHO.


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## JustWood (Dec 31, 2010)

ddug said:
			
		

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I didn't mean HM's were non-existent . Read and quote  the full post.


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## Sisu (Dec 31, 2010)

shamelessLEE said:
			
		

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Yes you are true in regard to many of the uses and misuses.  However, in most cases used oil is refined before re-use.  It is also contained in a medium (eg. asphalt).  But yes, things like asphalt and blacktop are not 100 percent benign.  Waste oil accepted at my landfill is not dumped.  Brownfields are associated with past mismanagement not current landfill use.  

So if a scrap yard is breaking the law and contaminating the environment, does that allow us to do the same?  It all goes back to voluntary and involuntary risk.  We have a choice not to use waste motor oil.  Why compound the problems with something we have a choice not to do.  

Also, oil and sludge from a car wash is passed through a oil/sludge separator at the car wash, prior to being sent to the wastewater treatment plant.  This is collected and sent for proper recycling/disposal.  Washing your car in your driveway is frowned upon or forbidden through municipal by-laws, since the wash water ends up in surface water via storm sewers (if you live in a town or city).  

The contamination of heavy metals in used motor oil is neither a theory or bunk.  Do you have any peer-reviewed studies that verify your assertion?  Heavy metals in waste motor oil is fact.  If in doubt, read the countless studies or take your used motor oil to the nearest certified lab and have a metal analysis done.


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## jlove1974 (Dec 31, 2010)

My Dad used to change oil in the 60s by parking his Chevelle straddling a ditch, dumping it out on the ground and leaving the oil and the filter right there.
Now he recycles used motor oil to be re-refined and reused. I guess it's a part of growing up and growing smart. Why buy an EPA stove if you are going to
spray carcinogenic motor oil all over the forest floor? Trust me, I am no enviromentalist nazi, but I am a conservationist, fisherman, a hunter, and a woodsman in that order...

That is about the same as using the same washcloth for your butt and your face in that you have the appearance of being clean, but I wouldn't kiss anybody


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## JustWood (Dec 31, 2010)

Sisu said:
			
		

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Re-read my post Sisu Simon!
Never said HM's weren't in waste oil.
Risk management and living in a glass house don't work.
Any of your engines leak oil in the drive?
Ever use WD or PB blaster to wrench on something.
Ever oil your bike chain?
What kind of laundry detergent do you use?
Do you use hair gel?
Wife use hairspray?


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## ddug (Dec 31, 2010)

> I didnâ€™t mean HMâ€™s were non-existent . Read and quote the full post.





> The heavy metal theory is bunk. Most engine wear occurs on the exhaust side of the cylinder. Thereâ€™s more in the air already than ever could be contained in the oil



Not sure what I missed, Just because there is more in the air (I am taking your word for this as I do not know) doesn't mean there isn't any in the used oil, nor does it deem the theory "bunk".

When I was a kid my neighbor poured his used oil around the perimeter of his home, "keeps the bugs down" he stated. Live and learn.


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## JustWood (Dec 31, 2010)

ddug said:
			
		

> > I didnâ€™t mean HMâ€™s were non-existent . Read and quote the full post.
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The theory that enviros use to poopoo the use of waste oil due to heavy metals is bunk. 

It's in the oil, air, and exhaust already!
Hell. HM's are in crude right out of the ground.


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## smokinj (Dec 31, 2010)

I do lot of milling in one spot all used oil.....I am still mowing and the grass is green. Cant believe there is many using more oil than I do. New vs used splitting that frog hair down this time.


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## Sisu (Dec 31, 2010)

shamelessLEE said:
			
		

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The point I have been trying to make is that you have a choice.  I am aware that my activities and the activities of others have impacts positive or negative.  If my engine is leaking oil, I would get it fixed.  I do use oil products, but I choose not use waste oil.  Laundry detergent I use is phosphate free, but I know it not 100 percent benign.  I burn wood, knowing that there are certain pollutants emitted.  However, I choose to burn clean and dry firewood, and not railway ties.  I use a chainsaw, but I choose to hand split my wood.

What you seem to be asserting is that because someone engine leaks oil or uses hair gel means that you are correct in using waste motor oil as bar-oil.  Why add to the problem?


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## smokinj (Dec 31, 2010)

Sisu said:
			
		

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How would filter used oil be any different than new bar oil that is the POINT!


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## Sisu (Dec 31, 2010)

smokinjay said:
			
		

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Depends on the type of filtration.  Recycled waste oil is usually filtered and refined.  Filtration removes any solids.  Distillation separates the contaminants like heavy metals.  Crude oil is also distilled, removing/reducing naturally occurring contaminants such as heavy metals etc., to produce oil that can be used.

If you just filter your used motor oil (via cloth etc), all you are doing is removing any suspended solids that would clog your bar oil feed.  Majority of contaminants in the used motor oil would still be there.  So the difference between new vs used is that new bar oil does not contain all the contaminants that used motor oil does.


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## JustWood (Dec 31, 2010)

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Where do these mysterious contaminants come from?
Engine block/components? Thin air?Houdini? 
I don't know any mechanics that have died from metal exposure.
Most engine wear occurs above cylinder stroke and is exhausted.Lower engine parts are bathed in oil. Are these parts made from some mysterious highLEE contaminated metal.Is it lead?  If so maybe they (craigs fav word) should regulate the steel/automotive industry.
BTW denim, filters I believe I read at one time < 1 micron. Which is better than any over the counter filter you can buy.


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## Sisu (Dec 31, 2010)

shamelessLEE said:
			
		

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These components come from a number of sources.  The engine materials, compression and heat are a few of them.  They add and change the original oil.  The fact is used motor oil has more contaminants.  The science has been done and reviewed.  http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...40619cdcdffb1df9a32eac40031915ae&searchtype=a

Anecdotal evidence doesn't equate to the truth.  It is the dose that makes the poison.  Usually there are chronic health effects related to heavy metal exposure.  Unless it is a considerable dose, death is not immediate.  Used motor oil is only one of many hazards faced by mechanics.  www.sjweh.fi/download.php?abstract_id=1883&file_nro=1

Also, filtering only removes suspended solids that are large enough.  If the oil is getting through, so are most of the contaminants.  Any way IMHO using waste motor oil as bar oil is like using railway ties as firewood.  When a cleaner alternative exists, why opt for the greater evil?


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## JustWood (Dec 31, 2010)

So what your saying is ALL oil that makes it through a filter is contaminated. What about the contamination (heavy metals) from when crude comes out of the ground?  Does that make it through?
If the EPA approves of it's use in heating systems and mixed with diesel then so do I.
After all I don't walk through the woods like Luke Skywalker with an 066 litesaber spewing oil everywhere. 99% of the oil ends up on the wood and gets burned which the EPA approves .


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## okotoks guy (Dec 31, 2010)

MATT DAMON


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## Sisu (Dec 31, 2010)

shamelessLEE said:
			
		

> So what your saying is ALL oil that makes it through a filter is contaminated. What about the contamination (heavy metals) from when crude comes out of the ground?  Does that make it through?
> If the EPA approves of it's use in heating systems and mixed with diesel then so do I.
> After all I don't walk through the woods like Luke Skywalker with an 066 litesaber spewing oil everywhere. 99% of the oil ends up on the wood and gets burned which the EPA approves .



Crude is distilled into the various petroleum products.  Distillation does not carry the metals much like the distillation of contaminated water into drinking water.  

The thing to understand that EPA approval does not equate to endorsement.  I am sure if you called your local EPA, they would not recommend the use of used motor oil as bar oil.  In fact you should call them to ask to make sure.


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## JustWood (Dec 31, 2010)

Sisu said:
			
		

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Distillation requires high heat.
What about the metals involved in the distillation equipment?


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## Sisu (Dec 31, 2010)

shamelessLEE said:
			
		

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http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/energy/oil-refining4.htm

Metals would involve stainless steel probably?  Not like a lead soldered copper still.


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## bogydave (Dec 31, 2010)

I think filtering used MO would be a good thing. Look in the bottom of the jug after you've left the 
oil sit in it for a few months. Black gunk.
But it has worked for many years as chain bar oil. 
If I used used oil for bar oil, I'd filter it.
Most oils are petroleum based. Nature breaks down small amounts pretty quick if  it is not in a puddle.
If I had a chain saw mill, I'd use used oil (& find a way to filter it) . That in itself is being an conservationist, getting
2 uses for one product. Consuming 1/2 as much. I like it!

Maybe try an earth magnet taped on the bottom of the jug, see how much ferris metal it attracts after a 
few days. May find out you engine may soon be due a rebuild LOL 

I'm with you. Used MO will work just fine. But I would filter mine
I just got lucky & got 10 gallons of new Delvac 10W-30W diesel engine oil, free. That's my bar oil.
Should last a while. The MSDS says it's almost drinkable, pretty benign stuff as chemicals go.
If I wanted it more sticky for my bar & chain, I'd mix a few ounces of STP/gallon with it.
But I've cut for many years, & only changed the bar because it was bent (operator error).
 (Bars wear even if you use bar oil, that's why the op manual says to file off the burr every once in a while)
As far as environmental concerns, check out the pollutants of a 2-cycle engine. Maybe electric chain saws are the answer. Just long extension cords  LOL 
But we'll still need bar/chain oil.

When we cut ice, we use vegetable oil. Works but I don't know if it works as well for wood. 
But it is supposed to be more environmentally friendly. Same if we cut up a moose, vegetable oil.
We just have to run it a while to purge the petroleum oil out of the system before it is used on the carcass. 

But please, no more laws to regulate me/us, I/we can't afford any more help form our government.


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## JustWood (Dec 31, 2010)

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WOW!! We went from knowing WTF we were talking about to PROBABLY ????????????????????????????


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## Mcbride (Jan 1, 2011)

All I ever use in my saws for bar oil is used engine oil.
I do use a funnel with a fine mesh screen filter in it though to fill it, to keep the crap out.


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## Extremebison (Jan 1, 2011)

I run synthetic in both my truck and my Jetta.  What or the health problems with fake oil?   

Recycling is a love hate relationship with me anyways.  Part of me wants to do the right thing, then the practical me kicks in and I pull my head out of my ass. 

Common sense tells me that sending any product just to the proper recycling plant, whether it's paper, oil, tin, alum. or glass.  Takes way more energy, vrs  reusing the material and make use of it again somehow in day to day living at home, even if it means tossing it in a pit and burying it.

Just the transport alone to get a new jug of bar oil sent to Whitehorse Yukon burns more fossil fuels and pollutes more then my chain saw will ever put out into the environment.  

Same as going for building materials for the cabins I build, I cut my own wood locally with used motor oil vrs buying timbers shipped from across the country, who's saving the enviro. know


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## Extremebison (Jan 1, 2011)

Another good point here is I ripped 60 16foot 8x8 timbers for the last cabin I built plus countless ruff lumber, still on my original bar on my mill.  

Woodbug recommends engine oil as they claim it has better lub properties compared to over the counter bar oil.  I believe my bar life is directly reflected in using motor oil, for the better.  It's also better for saw performance and chain wear, saving the whole system from wear and tear.  How much energy and waste goes into building a new bar for a saw? or chain? or replacing a wore out saw.  Not to mention shipping, and the carbon foot print as a whole.  To get the new product to the store in Whitehorse.  

Also I read somewhere bar oil is what's left after the oil has been refined, they slap a label on the jug and sell this buy product.  Another carbon foot print created what do you do with the jug, send it back to Vancouver from Whitehorse to a R plant.  Just a theory I got really no back up on this one, did read it somewhere at sometime, but I wouldn't be surprised if bar oil was the worst grade oil one could buy.  I'll have to look into this one more.  Why would you put poor grade oil in your saw?  

Total joke really.  I refill and reuse my jugs with waste oil and stock pile the oil for when I mill or cut wood.

No product is perfect but one has to look at the whole picture, and usually take the greater of the lesser evil

This is all from my environmental stand point, we haven't factored in how much money in the long run I may be saving

Thats just my two cords on it.


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## LLigetfa (Jan 1, 2011)

Sisu said:
			
		

> These components come from a number of sources.


How about using tinyurl.com instead of trashing the thread with such ridiculously long URLs.


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## OhioBurner© (Jan 1, 2011)

Extremebison said:
			
		

> Just the transport alone to get a new jug of bar oil sent to Whitehorse Yukon burns more fossil fuels and pollutes more then my chain saw will ever put out into the environment.



Yup everyone always looks at the direct effects and not the indirect. If you ran out of oil and had to make a trip to town just for oil to finish cutting for the day you'd probably cause more pollution in the trip than compared to the jug of used motor oil thats sitting there... 

Veggie oil might be better when just looking at its effects dumped into the environment but that doesnt mean it doesnt pollute... lots of fuel went into the tractor that planted and harvested, the semi truck that hauled it, the facility that processed it, the tires on the vehicles, the paint on the tractor, the factory that made the paint, the trucks that hauled in the raw materials... its endless cycle of pollution. Unless you go back to the stone age and dont process any raw materials other than by hand, you are going to be polluting.

So when you do properly recycle oil, how many heavy metals are released to recyle it? Dont forget about the emissions from the coal powerplant thats supplying half of the power that refinery is using...



			
				Sisu said:
			
		

> I am sure if you called your local EPA, they would not recommend the use of used motor oil as bar oil.  In fact you should call them to ask to make sure.


I would think the epa would prefer you not to use bar oil either, or a 2 stroke motor.Better get that felling axe back out, or grab a buddy and a two man saw... 



			
				bogydave said:
			
		

> As far as environmental concerns, check out the pollutants of a 2-cycle engine.


+1 We are all polluting, just to minutely different levels.



			
				smokinjay said:
			
		

> I do lot of milling in one spot all used oil.....I am still mowing and the grass is green. Cant believe there is many using more oil than I do. New vs used splitting that frog hair down this time.



Agreed, this thread is mostly splitting frog hairs.


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## Sisu (Jan 1, 2011)

shamelessLEE said:
			
		

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I am not sure what you mean.  I don't work in the oil refining industry.  Nor do I understand what you are trying to say or why you are so passionate over using used motor oil.

I have spent over 10 years in the Environmental Health and Safety field.  Dealing with exposures and hazardous materials is an everyday thing with me.  I have been involved with the clean-up of countless contaminated sites etc. all over Canada, from the south to the Arctic.  In that regard, I do know what I am talking about.

My intent was to bring an awareness of the potential hazards of using waste oil as bar oil.  It is a fact that it is more hazardous than using regular bar-oil.  Filtering through jeans does not eliminate these hazards.  If you are looking for an EPA recommendation for its use, talk to them.

I was not trying to invoke a visceral response that some posters have expressed.  This idea that the "grass is still green" or that "I don't know anyone who has been impacted" is not always the best indicator.  I have been to many countless contaminated sites that look lush with greenery.  It is what you can't see that can hurt you.  

Is using used motor oil going to cause the end of the world as we know it?  No.  Will it permanently contaminate the bush you are cutting in?  No.  Can it harm you or decrease your life-span?  Yes.  Can it potentially contaminate water we drink?  Yes.  Is regular bar-oil 100 percent benign?  No.  Is it cleaner than used motor oil?  Yes.

We wood-burners have an up-hill battle for a lot of people who view wood-burning as a major air polluter.  We are much like hunters.  Both are misunderstood and viewed as not politically-correct.  Yet, hunters and wood-burners have way more reverence, respect and understanding of nature than most people.  So we don't help our cause by not trying be safe and to cause as little impacts as possible in the bush.  That is worth more than saving a few bucks.  

A wise man once said "You spit on the earth, you spit on yourself".


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## Sisu (Jan 1, 2011)

LLigetfa said:
			
		

> Sisu said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I apologize for the trashing the thread with the "eyesores".  I thought that you could click on the link vs cutting and pasting?!  I hope I didn't violate the forum rules?!?!


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## Battenkiller (Jan 1, 2011)

LLigetfa said:
			
		

> How about using tinyurl.com instead of trashing the thread with such ridiculously long URLs.



Or using BB code to do it at the keyboard:


Then type in what you want here[/url}

You need to use a square bracket at the end in order for it to work. I used the other type so I could illustrate the code.


Looks like this when you are done:

[url=http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V78-48XV0HS-H4&_user=10&_coverDate=12/15/1983&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1593209181&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=40619cdcdffb1df9a32eac40031915ae&searchtype=a]Just Another Inappropriate Scientific Study


A bigger pet peeve for me is using the "quote" function to copy sixty-seven responses in a row.  Edit the dang thing in the BB text box, _please_.  We've been warned it uses up bandwidth.  Probably doesn't help with server response time, either.  Plus, it makes a thread almost impossible to read.


Anyway, carry on.  Haven't seen a good old-fashioned donnybrook here on Hearth in a while.  I'm going for more coffee and that last piece of Holiday baklava.   ;-)


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## LLigetfa (Jan 1, 2011)

I think you misunderstood.  It's not about clicking versus copy/paste.  It's about a page getting wider than the screen and not being able to read the lines without scrolling side to side.

Perhaps you use a different browser or you have a wide monitor and the page didn't side scroll for you.


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## Battenkiller (Jan 1, 2011)

â–ºâ–ºOhioBurnerâ—„â—„â„¢ said:
			
		

> Better get that felling axe back out, or grab a buddy and a two man saw...



Hell, my saw is a lot more efficient that I am.  All that extra huffing and puffing will surely release more CO2 into the atmosphere than my saw produces.  Plus, all the beans I'll need to get through the work day will produce copious amounts of methane in my own exhaust.  Then there's the environmental impact of growing those beans, processing them, canning them, sending them by rail to the warehouse, trucking them to supermarket, putting them on the shelf (more CO2 and methane produced by the stock clerk), driving to the store to buy them, cooking them on my stove (wasting fuel, and creating even more CO2, CO, unburned HCs, PAHs, etc.), then running the dishwasher to clean up after.

Considering all of the above, I think it's rather obvious that the EPA should stay clear of the whole chainsaw issue if they really want to help the environment.


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## LLigetfa (Jan 1, 2011)

I wonder what the carbon footprint of this thread is?  I leave my 90W laptop charger plugged in all the time.  Perhaps Sisu has a really big screen monitor.  Craig's server is dual core 3GHz.


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## Battenkiller (Jan 1, 2011)

LLigetfa said:
			
		

> I wonder what the carbon footprint of this thread is?  I leave my 90W laptop charger plugged in all the time.  Perhaps Sisu has a really big screen monitor.  Craig's server is dual core 3GHz.



Yikes!  I'm running an iMac with a 2.66 GHz Quad-Core i5 processor and a 27" LED backlit monitor.  I better sign off and go cut some wood with my chainsaw if I want to save the planet.


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## Sisu (Jan 1, 2011)

LLigetfa said:
			
		

> I wonder what the carbon footprint of this thread is?  I leave my 90W laptop charger plugged in all the time.  Perhaps Sisu has a really big screen monitor.  Craig's server is dual core 3GHz.


I agree.  With all the hot air generated on here, I think the polar ice caps are melting faster.


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## Battenkiller (Jan 1, 2011)

Sisu said:
			
		

> Any way IMHO using waste motor oil as bar oil is like using railway ties as firewood.



No, nothing like that at all.  Don't you think that's a bit of hype?  We are talking about adding small amounts of extra toxins into the environment (or likely into the wood, as Lee states) with the used oil.

BTW that study with the long a$$ url that you linked to speaks of an increase in PAHs.  PAHs are (often carcinogenic) aromatic hydrocarbons, _not_ heavy metals.  And I'm pretty sure you release as many PAHs into the environment by burning one round in the stove than you do by cutting up a whole cord with used oil as bar lube.

As for me, I was using my electric saw inside and the smell of the good Husky-brand oil I was using was so bad I decided to use canola oil instead.  Not as cheap as free oil, but cheaper than bar lube and it's supposed to be very superior as a lubricant.  My wood smells like salad now, and the biggest danger lies in the temptation to eat it.


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## JustWood (Jan 1, 2011)

Sisu
I'm not passionate about using it. I'm just sick of enviro wackos blowing the nonexistent hazards of it out of proportion.
The liabilities of storage and transport for recycling  are too great for me not to have a constant use for it and be rid of it.
I produce 100 plus gallons per year  and it is used practically as fast as it is produced. Some as bar oil , most burned in diesel engines. Which is approved of by the EPA.
If burning it in low temp engines and shop heaters is approved of then why woodn't usage as bar oil.
 How hot does a bar get?
 Is some burned up on the bar? 
Heavy metals from engine wear are mostly exhausted . They are already in the air at such large volumes some guy using a gallon or 2/year don't mean jack to the environment. OR are the heavy metals absorbed into the ground where they came from, foliage, or wood which is cut and burned.
What percentage is left on the wood and burned in the stove.
Sawdust is carcinogenic. Maybe we should quit cutting wood.
http://ohioline.osu.edu/aex-fact/0595_1.html
Next time your traveling the interstate and cross a bridge look at the entrance and exit where there is an expansion joint. If it's rough you'll see a dark stain dead center of the lane. What do you suppose this is within feet of a stream or river which runs off the concrete.  I don't ever see enviro wackos out there cleaning up there own oil spill from there own cars. Ever walk down a RR bed. The grease and oil that comes off trains will blow your mind .
When you build a glass house to live in ,make sure it's more than just the south wall!

BTW  a 2-3% WMO to diesel fuel mix gained me 20% better fuel mileage. What effect did 20% better fuel economy have on the environment. It has a $7,000/year effect + on my wallet.

http://100777.com/node/1117

Your environmental coon hound is bayin' up the wrong tree,,, the coon is in the next woods over!


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## Extremebison (Jan 1, 2011)

I would like to see the a study on how much energy is wasted in the recycling process.  It would be interested to see, how much $ someone is making on my garbage.  Going to get a little off topic here got to warn you, but this is why a reuse and not recycle.  Just  a few things I have seen done that upsets me.  This is my personal experiance it's happening right in my back yard.

One ex.  I pay to drop a dead fridge at the Whitehorse landfill.  Then the city allows people to come in and scavenge the metal off the appliance.  They cut the lines releasing refrigerant in the atmosphere, to collect the copper and alum.  Sure there suppost to evac. every fridge but it's to late when they pile them all up with a loader, busting open lines.  In theory they should pay me to drop it off, especially if some else is making money off the unit, recycling the metal and refrigerant, at least let me drop it off for free.  The only thing stopping me from dumping that old fridge in the ditch is moral's.  I know all this and have seen it done right in front of my eye's, as I worked in the appliance industry as a Appliance repair guy by trade.

Another beef is the gov allows companies to manufacture appliances, which only have parts available for them for 5 years after purchase.  So know we have created a bigger problem, every five years we have to throw out our range, dishwasher, fridge and so on.  I quite repair work because I couldn't justify billing a customer for a service call diagnosing a faulty clock, then trying to order another clock to fix the range finding out that they don't make them anymore.  I then tell the customer they have to buy a new range, as parts aren't available for the unit anymore, and they owe me a call out.  Of course I'm the bad guy, and have nothing to do with the of the unit.  I've had enough with the manufacturing sector,  I think the automobile sector is heading this direction slowly also.  

I'm switching to wood cook stove and wood boiler to take care of my DHW, cooking baking and heating needs.  These stoves and boilers or at least built in the country by smaller scale operations,  the wood cook stove is built in Canada.  My boiler is coming from the USA, but there not made in China.  Supporting North America as a whole.  The fuel for these units, will be reducing the fire hazard around my property and community for years to come.  The beetle kill here is rotting faster then Yukoners can burn it.    I also have a wood cook stove on my deck, for canning, and cooking and baking during the summer.  So reusing motor oil for chain oil while cutting wood for these units maybe isn't such a sin.

Were could I send a sample of used oil and have it broken down, then we should have bar oil also looked at so we can compare the two.  It would be interesting, until I see the facts, then I'm sticking to free bar oil for my saws.


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## sgt7546 (Jan 2, 2011)

To the OP, thats for the tip about used motor oil.

I'll def. give it a try.


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## golfandwoodnut (Jan 2, 2011)

All I ever used in my Husky was used motor oil and I did not even filter it, never had a problem.  I got more concerned with my new Stihl as the dealer claimed that used oil was more acidic and may cause some damage over time.  I still occasionally use it.  If I was out of other oil I definetly would use it in a pinch.


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## Sisu (Jan 3, 2011)

Well Lee, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.  I don't know exactly how this thread about a tip for substituting used motor oil for bar oil devolved into waste oil diesel, enviro-wackos, frog hairs, crude oil refining, lengthy urls, etc..   I think you might have answered why the EPA approves of waste oil use in diesel fuel.  Perhaps the benefits outweigh the cons.  This is something that the EPA can only answer.  However, I am sure if we were discussing over a beer vs a keyboard we would perhaps have a better understanding and appreciation of each other's points of views. 

I do think the devolution of the thread had something to do with some posters taking issue with the point I (and some others) were trying to make.  My point was and still is *"that used motor oil is more hazardous than designated bar oil and therefore it is not a good idea to use as bar oil."*  I am strictly talking about *bar oil substitution*, not pollution from other sources, carbon footprints, Whitehorse's recycling program, government inefficiency, carcinogens of wood dust, etc.  

I agree this is small potatoes compared to scale of most ills of planet.  Yet there are still hazards associated with used motor oil substitution as bar oil.  I just don't understand why you would intentionally do something which increases your exposure and can potentially *add* to the chemical burdens on your body, in order to save a few bucks.  Especially when cleaner bar oil is fairly cheap and available.  If vegetable oils work, even better. 

The assertion that the hazards with used motor oil are non-existent is false.  As has been stated in previous posts, used motor oil does contain a cocktail of heavy metals, PAHs, and other compounds.  Here is another link (this is short one):  http://www.fws.gov/caribbean/es/PDF/Contaminants/oilused.pdf  It is from the US Fish and Wildlife Service. 

In this document, it states a lot of things, including: *"Hydrocarbons from oil can move to atmosphere or settle through water to bottom sediments, where they may persist for years [961]. Metals from oil may build up in various media [961].
The concentration of various PAHs is much higher in used oil than in (fresh) lubricating oil [519]. For example, Grimmer et al. reported concentrations of dibenz(a,c)-anthracene, 4-methylpyrene, fluoranthene,
benz(a)anthracene, benzo(e)pyrene, benzo(g,h,i)perylene, and benzo(a)pyrene, respectively, 36, 49, 253, 720, 1,112, 4,770, and 7,226 times higher in "used" compared to "fresh" oil [519]."*  If you have any studies/literature that speaks differently, please let us know. 

In this forum, I have always been impressed the way members help each other.  There are countless tips given each day which are invaluable.  However, every once in a while, a tip is given that has been proven by more knowledgeable members not to be as helpful or outright dangerous.  Those are the times more knowledgeable members will pipe up to give their two cents.  

As this is related to my education and field of work, I felt it my duty as a proud Hearth member to give "two cents" to make members aware of the potential hazards via exposure through this use.  It is not only about the "birds, fish and the trees" but your own exposure too (skin absorption, inhalation, ingestion).  My intent was and is to help us members to be safe as possible out there.  

Please try to shake your biases and heed what I have written.  I have no illusions of environmental piety and I do not have a  desire to control people's lives.  Just remember, I make money from the actions and misadventures of people who were ignorant, arrogant, and/or wanted to save a buck, etc.


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## Mcbride (Jan 3, 2011)

The used motor oil already exists, and something has to be done withit, so chainsaw bar oil is a great use of it.
A lot more damage is done producing new oil, specially labeled as bar oil for the use. Than  using up old oil in a good way.


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## yanksforever (Jan 3, 2011)

Thanks for the tip BUT not in my new Stihl MS 362....maybe for my piece of crap homelite but not for my new saw.


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## JustWood (Jan 3, 2011)

Sisu
Independent case studies have shown by different sampling techniques the contaminants found in used oil are due to  increased regulations over the years causing producers(oil change shops) to mix liquids other than used oil(antifreeze,turpentine,paint thinner,parts washer fluid,high strength cleaners) together. Recycling companies are also the reason many samples test high for nasties as they often haul other very toxic chemicals and wastes in the same vaccum trucks waste oil is collected in with no decontamination in between hauling different wastes.
What better way for a oil recycling company to promote their biz than by knowingly allowing a "contaminated" sample to be tested by a research lab.

Samples by independent labs taken directly from autos and not mixed in an oil bulk tank have shown much lower amounts of metals and other contaminants vs. bulk tank oil samples vs. samples from recycler refiners and that samples that have been settled out contain minimal metals and contaminants. Most of the nasties are contained in the sludge and water after settling.

Like I've said before, most metal wear is in the upper cylinder of an engine. To get into oil , metals and nasties from the burning of gas wood have to blow by the rings and cylinder of an engine. The easiest escape route is through the exhaust. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that most from an engine is in the air already.


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## firefighterjake (Jan 3, 2011)

To each their own . . . live and let live . . . for what little oil I use I just buy the bar oil at my local dealer to help him out a bit . . . and since he realizes that folks can buy the dino oil pretty inexpensively he gives a pretty good rate on the enviro oil . . . since I rarely go through a jug or two a year the small cost is not that big a deal to me . . . for others it might be a significant outlay of cash though.


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## gpcollen1 (Jan 3, 2011)

shamelessLEE said:
			
		

> Sisu said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not managed as Hazardous Waste if it is managed as USED OIL - which you are not doing.  If you were caught, you could get cited for either USED OIL regs or Haz Waste.  I would bet my pay check that the used oil will trigger the TCLP levels for metals and be Haz Waste.


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## JustWood (Jan 3, 2011)

CTwoodburner said:
			
		

> shamelessLEE said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Used oil is not considered haz. waste. UNLESS  it is mixed with other stuff such as paint thinner,antifreeze, etc.
Go to the EPA website and read up.


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## Battenkiller (Jan 3, 2011)

Sisu said:
			
		

> I just don't understand why you would intentionally do something which increases your exposure and can potentially *add* to the chemical burdens on your body, in order to save a few bucks.  Especially when cleaner bar oil is fairly cheap and available.  If vegetable oils work, even better.



I guess the same reason why people eat the wrongs food (especially the poor who are trying to make food stamps stretch), smoke cigarettes, drink to excess, use recreational drugs (guilty as charged), watch porn on the Internet (no comment), make unnecessary trips with the car (or maybe the truck that they justify owning because the need it to "scronge" firewood.  Let he who is without sin... you know.

I have several Canadian friends who get on my case about burning plastic wrap in a hot campfire, but have no problem with the fire itself, even though it has been proven to create all of the compounds your study lists in the waste oil - in significant amounts - while polyethylene burns almost entirely to CO2 and H2O in a hot fire.  The plastic just _seems_ dirtier to them, and perception is reality, eh?  They also appear to be guilt-free about chartering a bush plane to take them hundreds of miles into the wilderness just so they can show videos on YouTube of their adventures in NWT.  Absolutely unnecessary in a country that has more moving water close to civilization than any other country in the world.

People do what they do because they aren't perfect, and pointing it out to them on a public forum isn't going to do anything but make them more set in their ways.  Proof of this is the fact that almost everyone here still dries their wood outside instead of in the basement like I do. ;-) 

Yes, vegetable oil works.  Canola oil is actually pressed from a selectively bred form of rapeseed that was developed by Canadian botanists to eliminate the erasic acid that is toxic to humans.  It's name is an acronym for "*CAN*adian *O*il *L*ow *A*cid".  Before that, rapeseed oil had it's primary use as one of the best lubricants known, particularly in wet conditions.  Lots of chainsaw carvers are using it because they don't want to breathe in the bar oil, old or new.  They spend hours a day constantly running their detail saws, way more time spent slinging oil than most loggers.  Most of this time, only the tip of the bar is used, so oil goes everywhere except for a bit on the wood.  But canola oil ain't free.  I'm sure many guys and gals out there carving would try the used oil instead of regular bar oil, just for economical reasons.  Many wear masks now so they don't breathe in the wood dust, so they probably feel even safer.  They are wrong, but pounding the point home won't convince anyone. Perception is everything.


On to that study you cited... what do you say about this:




> A monitoring study of *wastewater effluents from a waste oil re-refinery* in the United States (location not specified) found that the mean concentration of metals varied from 0.34 mg/L for cadmium to 271 mg/L for lead. Other *metals detected in wastewater* were arsenic (3.4 mg/L), chromium (10 mg/L), barium (80 mg/L), and zinc (250 mg/L). For organic compounds, mean concentrations varied from below the detection limit (DL = 0.02 mg/L) for benzo(a)anthracene and benzo(a)pyrene to 1306 mg/L for toluene. Other organics detected in wastewater were naphthalene (283 mg/L), benzene (364 mg/L), and several chlorinated solvents (309 to 666 mg/L) [752].



It appears that the actual act of refining this stuff causes plenty of problems, lots more than the amount that ends up on the firewood we'll burn.  And the amounts?  Well, they were in the wastewater effluent, weren't they?  Who knows how concentrated they actually were in the oil itself?  Don't make the assumption that they got diluted by the water, they may have actually gotten concentrated more by the process.  What happens to the wastewater?  Would Hugh Carey drink a glass of the stuff? :-/ 

The sad fact is that the big refineries and recyclers and chemical companies and paper mills are by far the most egregious offenders in this little dance.  If some guy wants to use a little of this stuff in his saw, I really don't think that makes up even a tiny fraction of the amount that ends up leaking onto the parking lot asphalt at my local Wal-Mart every year.


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## qlty (Jan 3, 2011)

I bought my home 46 years ago it had over 100 Norway Maples that I began cutting down and being frugal started using old crank case Eng oil in my chain saw.i found the bar and chain was wearing and running hotter than with bar oil and soon stopped using the old motor oil.Today's motor oil is HD or high detergent,it carries the impurities,metals and what ever is in it so they will be taken thru the oil filter of a car engine,this stuff is abrasive and tells me why it caused my chain & bar to wear quicker.If this was not so you would never have to change your car's  Eng oil.Another fact is that Bar oil has a higher sling factor this enables the oil to adhear to the bar and chain better. I am sure some will rebut this but I will not use it any more.JMO


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## ddug (Jan 3, 2011)

That's what I was trying to say in my first post. Way back when when I worked at a saw shop the mechanics were always complaining about people using nasty old oil on their bars, said it should never be done and explained to me why bar oil was superior for the job. They had been working on saws all their lives and were in their early 70's. Maybe they were wrong, maybe oil wasn't as good back then, I don't know.

I threw in the part about the containments in the old oil mainly because I don't want that stuff flinging in my face, which seemed to draw quite the heated debate.


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## Jutt77 (Jan 3, 2011)

I'm FAR from being a post-modern environmentalist, however, to me, spraying used motor oil around the woods is on par with littering in the woods -or- taking a sh*t in the woods at a camp site without digging a cat-hole -or- shooting towards the noise in the bushes versus having visual confirmation of the deer before taking a shot.  It just comes across as being somewhat lazy and irresponsible.


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## Extremebison (Jan 3, 2011)

Jutt77 said:
			
		

> I'm FAR from being a post-modern environmentalist, however, to me, spraying used motor oil around the woods is on par with littering in the woods -or- taking a sh*t in the woods at a camp site without digging a cat-hole -or- shooting towards the noise in the bushes versus having visual confirmation of the deer before taking a shot.  It just comes across as being somewhat lazy and irresponsible.



Whats the difference? if you dumped a jug of chain oil on the ground or motor oil, it's still oil, think about it, you think buying a jug of chain oil makes it clean and safe.  It's still oil, it don't matter which way you turn it, it's still oil, used or not.  You think Premium chain oil is safe to inhale, or have on your hands, I don't think so.  So really come know thing about what your saying.

My chain saw makes me money.  When I'm not guiding. I sell firewood part time and build cabins, plus cutting my own wood for my house, and rental cabins.  I cut alot of wood every year, I run a husky 3120 for bucking and milling, and pack a 55 rancher for limbing, and little bucking jobs, this oil has never created a problem for my saws.

No it's not a crime using motor oil as chain oil.  I leave all my camping sites just as I have found them while I guide, I work in the most pristine places on earth and you would not even know that in some areas I have used the same tenting spots year after year.  We drink out oll our streams no treatment.  If you were to go Camping there you would think you were the first person to be in that very valley.  This is were I work www.huntnahanni.com  I know what being a stuart of the land is all about, I work, hunt, trap, and live on the land, everyday.  Recycling motor oil rather then using "Premium Chain Oil"  does not even come close to littering in the woods.  It's not being lazy or responsible it's about thinking outside the box, making use of the problem  "waste"  

Go ahead jump on the band wagon and buy your premium chain oil.  In all truth thats being lazy and irresponsible, not looking for a solution to a problem.  Oil is still oil whether it's been used or not it's still harmful, this I do know.


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## JustWood (Jan 4, 2011)

Jutt77 said:
			
		

> I'm FAR from being a post-modern environmentalist, however, to me, spraying used motor oil around the woods is on par with littering in the woods -or- taking a sh*t in the woods at a camp site without digging a cat-hole -or- shooting towards the noise in the bushes versus having visual confirmation of the deer before taking a shot.  It just comes across as being somewhat lazy and irresponsible.



Your better off crapping in the woods.

http://www.bvsde.paho.org/bvsacd/cd43/kangala.pdf

Sorry folks,,, heavy metals are everywhere.
How many have taken free compost from your municipality?
Did you put it on your garden?


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## JustWood (Jan 4, 2011)

Some heavy metals are good for you but,,,,,,,,, on the other hand we're all screwed!

http://www.infinitehealthresources.com/Store/Resource/Article/85/1/1157.html


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## Intheswamp (Jan 4, 2011)

Extremebison said:
			
		

> *We drink out oll our streams no treatment.*



I'm leaning to the "clean oil...no more than I will use" mentality.  

Having said that, referring to the quoted statement above...ya'll have trained the local black bears and moose not to crap in the water?  What if a new bear from across the mountain comes looking for his true love and hasn't had formal training yet?  Wouldn't that be cause for concern?  What's that other critter, hmmm...giardia???  Just wondering.....


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## ironpony (Jan 4, 2011)

I work in the environmental industry.
is asbestos bad for you? yes
we are removing it from buildings and schools and such,
fact: there is more asbestos exposure downtown from
brake dust than you will ever get from inside a building
so, what do we do???
is lead bad for you? yes
it was in paints, and we are trying to abate those situations
and your exposure, there is more lead fallout in the environment from leaded fuels
that can never be cleaned up
it all depends on how you look at the facts......
my couple of quarts of used oil vs. new oil
insignificant
want to do some good, get rid of electric cars
do the research to see what it takes to manufacture
and dispose of batterys the environmental impact is greater than
any gasoline/deisel vehicle ten times over
and you still need to generate electric to recharge the system
clean coal...........ya, right


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## ddug (Jan 4, 2011)

Environmental concerns aside, which I think are negligible in the grand scheme of things, I contend that there is no way used motor oil can protect your bar and chain as well as specified bar oil.


I have been a bicycle mechanic all my life and owned and operated a shop for 15 years. Not chainsaws I realize but there are some parallels. On my workbench there would always be at least a half dozen different varieties of lubes. The same oil that was ideal for chains was less than ideal for cables, freehubs, etc. Many granolaheads frequented our shop and used all sorts of concoctions to lubricate their chains, including used motor oil and vegetable oil in their endeavors to save the planet and some cash. Vegetable oil is the worst, being a magnet for dirt and grime and would create such a mess as to be nearly impossible to clean. Used motor oil fared not much better. These people would always swear by their methods but I could see the damage being done. Prematurely worn chains, sprockets, and chainrings were the direct result of dirty and/or wrong lube.


I can state with absolutely no doubt that the #1 cause of prematurely worn moving metal components (on a bicycle at least) is due to dirty and improper lubrication and the accelerated wear can be dramatic, 3 or 4 times more than the same part under ideal conditions.  When I change the oil in my car it is black, stinky and just plain worn out due to heat and friction. I doesn't feel slick like new oil, that's why I'm changing it.


Maybe none of this has anything to do with chainsaws, but I'm wagering it does. I know many have stated good results with used motor oil and I'm not disputing it,  just saying that I think you would fare better using clean lube. I don't look down my nose at anyone and appreciate thinking outside the box, I am really a fan of directly recycling whenever feasible.  To each his own, absolutely! 


Until I hear otherwise from some experienced saw mechanics, ones who have made their living at it for some time, I gotta believe that a clean lube designed to hold its place at high rpm's is going to save you money in wear and tear in the long run.


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## mywaynow (Jan 5, 2011)

If we were talking internal engine oil, the conversation would be one sided.  The difference is that we are talking about a chain that  is running through wood, bark and certainly some dirt.  Whether or not the oil has some minute amount of debris is negated when that blade hits the wood surface, imho.  The amount of lube my saw uses is the same for chain lube vs. used oil vs. a mix of the two.  How different could they be given these issues?


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## qlty (Jan 5, 2011)

here is an answer from about.com as to weather to use motor oil or bar oil.
Answer: You really do need to use a quality bar oil. Here is why! Bar and chain oil has a "high-tack" additive that prevents it from slinging off the chain as it travels around the tip. NEVER use used motor oil! 
So if that is a fact your chain and bar is going to wear faster an run hotter thus shortening its life and perhaps dull faster no doubt.JM2Cents


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## OhioBurner© (Jan 5, 2011)

Are we still debating this?

When I'm a working I'm letting the heavy metal fly into the woods... Metallica that is.


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## gzecc (Jan 5, 2011)

I think bar oil is way over priced. I mix it with my used motor oil.


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## CountryBoy19 (Jan 5, 2011)

qlty said:
			
		

> here is an answer from about.com as to weather to use motor oil or bar oil.
> Answer: You really do need to use a quality bar oil. Here is why! Bar and chain oil has a "high-tack" additive that prevents it from slinging off the chain as it travels around the tip. NEVER use used motor oil!
> So if that is a fact your chain and bar is going to wear faster an run hotter thus shortening its life and perhaps dull faster no doubt.JM2Cents



Wow, that is one revolutionary little tidbit of information there... I don't think I ever heard anybody mention that before.

Do you get all you information from About dot com?

Ok, putting all the sarcasm aside. #1 that is one of the primary things that is always discussed/argued/debated, #2 there was no evidence to back that claim up

IMHO using used motor oil will not diminish the lubrication enough to make a large difference, and any difference that is noticeable (shortened b&c life) will be easily paid for in the cost savings over buying your oil. That's not to mention the highly debated economical impact of re-using oil vs buying new oil.


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## JustWood (Jan 5, 2011)

I'd be willing to bet I got 200+ cord of firewood and close to 1MMBF of logs on the bar on my 066 and I've used waste diesel oil for 20+ years.
Most home weekend warrior bar wear is due to pinching and heating the bar AND abuse. I've watched guys along the road cutting wood and am amazed their saws last long at all.


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## smokinj (Jan 5, 2011)

Running used oil through a 2000.00$ milling saw set up! NO ISSUES!


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## Mcbride (Jan 6, 2011)

If this used oil is so bad on something that is not close tolerances, under the extreme pressures etc. , like a chainsaw bar and chain.
I hate to think what it did in an engine turning high rpm, and on stuff like cam lobes, main & rod bearings etc.

Those engines must be thrashed, amazing they start at all.


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## Valhalla (Jan 6, 2011)

Most bar oil may be absorbed into the wood rounds being cut and then burned.  About 5% of saw run time is possibly unloaded and oil thrown off. Just an estimate.

Direct use of engine drain oil, as for a bar lube, may save more than recycling it and producing/transporting/buying fresh product. We are stewards of our forest and our world. 

Vegetable oil for bar lube use now has my interest. Thanks!


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## Extremebison (Jan 6, 2011)

shamelessLEE said:
			
		

> I'd be willing to bet I got 200+ cord of firewood and close to 1MMBF of logs on the bar on my 066 and I've used waste diesel oil for 20+ years.
> Most home weekend warrior bar wear is due to pinching and heating the bar AND abuse. I've watched guys along the road cutting wood and am amazed their saws last long at all.



Yes alot of people have no idea on how to keep there chain tension, and keep there chains sharp both help contribute as much to bar life as using a good lub for oil.  

While running my 3120 with a 3 foot bar I get very little heat build up on both the chain and bar, I can touch the unit and hold my hand on it after ripping a timber on my mill.  Still on the original bar, on my mill and the bar was used when I got the mill.  I had upgraded to a new 3120 as my 365 didn't have near the power I wanted.  My 3120 has never seen bar oil that I had purchased always used oil in that machine, right from the day I brought it home.


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## JustWood (Jan 6, 2011)

Mcbride said:
			
		

> If this used oil is so bad on something that is not close tolerances, under the extreme pressures etc. , like a chainsaw bar and chain.
> I hate to think what it did in an engine turning high rpm, and on stuff like cam lobes, main & rod bearings etc.
> 
> Those engines must be thrashed, amazing they start at all.



FinalLEE some common sense!


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## wetwood (Jan 6, 2011)

I'm sure the used Mobil 1 out of my truck's engine will lube a bar just fine, but I use the thick sticky stuff that strings out all over everything in the wind.  %-P


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## Mcbride (Jan 6, 2011)

Extremebison said:
			
		

> shamelessLEE said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I fix saws in my shop, not a lot, but some of them.
I will wrench on just about anything for customers.
I see so many saws that have the chain not adjusted right, or even sharpened correctly, its stunning.

About 15 years ago I bought a used Husky 2100 from a professional faller.
It had a LOT of hours on it when I bought it, but was still in pretty good shape.
He also before I left took the time to show me how he sharpens & adjusts the chain.
Also said he only uses old engine oil in all his saws, his friend had an auto repair shop, and saved it for him.

All I have ever run in it since is used engine oil to.

I run my saw a lot, and in 15 years have only changed the bar twice, and maybe a dozen chains.
I lend it to my friends and family to, and hand them a jerry can of premix, and a jerry can of used oil for the chain so its got proper lubricants.

I have had to replace the piston and rings, and rebuild the carb twice.
But its still in better condition after over 2 decades of hard use, than many saws I see just 5 years old, and not used nearly as much.

If your chain and bar are running excessively hot, look at your sharpening job, and if the tension is correct.
Maybe the bar is pinched somewhere, or the tip roller is trashed.
But its not because you used old engine oil.


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## gpcollen1 (Jan 6, 2011)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

> Sisu said:
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So how many people x 'small amounts of extra toxins' = alot of extra toxins??


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## gpcollen1 (Jan 6, 2011)

Extremebison said:
			
		

> I would like to see the a study on how much energy is wasted in the recycling process.  It would be interested to see, how much $ someone is making on my garbage.  Going to get a little off topic here got to warn you, but this is why a reuse and not recycle.  Just  a few things I have seen done that upsets me.  This is my personal experiance it's happening right in my back yard.
> 
> One ex.  I pay to drop a dead fridge at the Whitehorse landfill.  Then the city allows people to come in and scavenge the metal off the appliance.  They cut the lines releasing refrigerant in the atmosphere, to collect the copper and alum.  Sure there suppost to evac. every fridge but it's to late when they pile them all up with a loader, busting open lines.  In theory they should pay me to drop it off, especially if some else is making money off the unit, recycling the metal and refrigerant, at least let me drop it off for free.  The only thing stopping me from dumping that old fridge in the ditch is moral's.  I know all this and have seen it done right in front of my eye's, as I worked in the appliance industry as a Appliance repair guy by trade.



If the city lets them do this on their site to their materials then they should be reported to the EPA.  What they and the 'scavengers' are doing is ilegal.


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## gpcollen1 (Jan 6, 2011)

shamelessLEE said:
			
		

> CTwoodburner said:
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You must have trouble reading.  It is not Haz Waste IF it is managed as USED OIL.  You still have to sample that USED OIL for total halogens to be able to manage it and get rid of it as USED OIL.  I do this for a living, I don't need the website right now.


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## gpcollen1 (Jan 6, 2011)

shamelessLEE said:
			
		

> Jutt77 said:
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You really don't read, do you?  The first lines in that say the wastewater is from INDUSTRIAL and Municipal - not from human feces.


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## smokinj (Jan 6, 2011)

CTwoodburner said:
			
		

> shamelessLEE said:
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I am sure its your Job and you need to justify your job. Lee on the other hand has ever thing wrap up in his Business and looks to be a few million of his own invesment so he has a little riding on this other than a few dollars he is saving.....


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## JustWood (Jan 7, 2011)

CTwoodburner said:
			
		

> shamelessLEE said:
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Whut part uf municipal sewage didn't yew understand!  DUH!


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## Extremebison (Jan 7, 2011)

I had no idea "Free Chain oil" was so controversial, this is getting good.


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## JustWood (Jan 7, 2011)

CTwoodburner said:
			
		

> shamelessLEE said:
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If you do this for a living you should have easy access to info. I'm from Oklahoma ! 
EPA sez different!


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## Willman (Jan 7, 2011)

I knew a heavy duty diesel mechanic for Cat. He told me that at certain intervals oil samples from the engines were sent out for analysis. The lab reports could point out which part of the engine was wearing and if it was normal wear or abnormal wear. Made for more precise PM on very expensive rigs. 

In this lengthy thread I haven't seen anyone telling about using ATF for B&C oil. No combustion contaminates to deal with just a little friction material as well as some metal. Its even the same color. I am about out of regular B&C so I will give it a try. Yes there is a service interval for ATF. I save my old veggy oil and use it to coat concrete forms, might even try it for the B&C after filtering out the crumbs, mostly which sink to bottom of jug.

Will


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## smokinj (Jan 7, 2011)

Willman said:
			
		

> I knew a heavy duty diesel mechanic for Cat. He told me that at certain intervals oil samples from the engines were sent out for analysis. The lab reports could point out which part of the engine was wearing and if it was normal wear or abnormal wear. Made for more precise PM on very expensive rigs.
> 
> In this lengthy thread I haven't seen anyone telling about using ATF for B&C oil. No combustion contaminates to deal with just a little friction material as well as some metal. Its even the same color. I am about out of regular B&C so I will give it a try. Yes there is a service interval for ATF. I save my old veggy oil and use it to coat concrete forms, might even try it for the B&C after filtering out the crumbs, mostly which sink to bottom of jug.
> 
> Will



New thread...lol I use veggie and atf as well. More veggie then anything. Most of my veggie oil I get free so its a no brain-er.


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