# Indirect Water Heaters



## Otis B Driftwood (Mar 21, 2015)

I'm in the market for an indirect water heater. The tank we have is 19 years old*
and I don't want to awaken one morning with a 1/2" of water in the basement,
since these tanks are rated for about 8 years. I know, actual results may vary.

So, I narrowed it down to four brands: Dunkirk, Heat-Flo, iBC and TriangleTube.
Their return rates are similar, all are stainless and have top tank connections,
the last being important to me since I don't want horizontal pipes that low.

Some points: our Burnham boiler has a BTU output of around 107,000 which is
under some of the products specs, so my return rates will be somewhat lower.

The surface heating area on the TriangleTube is superior since it's a tank-within-
a-tank design, but others such as the Peerless Partner have similar surface areas.

I know there are customer service and warranty issues with Bradford/White,
TriangleTube and Weil-McLain. For some reason of late Weil-McLain has
been having quality issues but nothing on the order of Burnham Boilers.

We have hard smelly water which is largely controlled and would prefer not
having an anode rod since they're not easily serviced and can actually cause
problems.

Thoughts? Thankee in advance.


*Edited from 14 to 19 years. It pays to check.


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## velvetfoot (Mar 21, 2015)

Why not get an electric water heater?    You're in CT, you can get a smoking rebate on a Geospring, I think.


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## Bob Rohr (Mar 21, 2015)

Otis B Driftwood said:


> I'm in the market for an indirect water heater. The tank we have is 14 years old
> 
> and I don't want to awaken one morning with a 1/2" of water in the basement,
> 
> ...




Tank leaks usually start as a pin hole, not a major leak.  You can buy moisture sensors to alarm you if you don't check the basement regularly.

I think HeatFlo builds the IBC tanks.  I do like the smooth, large diameter stainless coils they use.  HeatFlo is a small company and they have great quality control and are easy to reach.

TT use to build the Weil Tanks, maybe still do.  I've heard some issues of late with leakers.  The leaks are in the steel outer tank portion.

Crown and Burnham were the same tank once upon a time, both from Belgium as I recall.

Of that group, I would go with HeatFlo.

HTP has some nice tanks, built here, but they have a finned cupornickel coil, not my favorite coil design, especially with hard water.  I think they had a smooth coil version at the AHR show.  An import maybe?

It odd, but in some areas SS outlast glass lined, in other area the opposite.  If you have a glass lined now, and it has lasted 14 years, you might stick with that.  
There are anode rod choices if you have water that reacts.

 Bock still builds a nice, heavy gauge, thick glass lined tank.  It has a large diameter smooth coil for great HX and low pressure drop.  Also dual anode rods.

There are segmented anode rods available if you need to replace one.  Or electronic anode rods.


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## maple1 (Mar 22, 2015)

velvetfoot said:


> Why not get an electric water heater?    You're in CT, you can get a smoking rebate on a Geospring, I think.



+1.


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## Otis B Driftwood (Mar 22, 2015)

Thanks for all the responses.

Velvet and Maple: Thanks, I didn't know that. ( cue Johnny Carson )
Two Reasons I can reject upon:

1) CL+P ( bastids just upped the rate ); and
2) I don't need a 50G capacity tank.

Thanks, tho.


Bob: Thanks for that great overview. I was disappointed in TT after reading
a few things here'n'there, thanks for the verification. Too bad; great design.

Fins: Yup, as I thought. Not good for pipe cloggers as our water.
So it's down to the Heat-Flo then, I'll pick the contractor based on that.
BTW, like Peerless too, but it has fins and side connections.

The others are well rated too.

Thank You VERY MUCH all, this board is all kinds of awesome.


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## maple1 (Mar 22, 2015)

How much oil do you burn during non-heating months to heat your dhw?

Our plain 80 gallon electric tank costs about $30/mo at 0.18/kWh, family of 5. Doing it with oil for the 17 years before that was about 3/4 gallon oil/day. Big savings with electric. I would consider the need to replace an oil based component as opportunity to move to something much more efficient.


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## BadgerBoilerMN (Mar 22, 2015)

There are only three to consider today. 

NTI Trin and Stor, Crown's MegaStor and the Viessamann's VietoCell Ti Stainless tank. All stainless, all smooth tubed HX, all super-insulated with service ports. 

The average glass-lined tank has a 10 year life, the average SS indirect well over 20!

The heat capacity of the tank usually has little to do with your DHW load. If the tank can absorb the full output of the boiler you have, you are good to go.


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## BoilerMan (Mar 23, 2015)

I have a Heat-flo and am very satisfied with it.  Stay away from anything with finned copper for the HX as it will scale and not work well in just a few years.  

Heat-flo also has indirects with an electric element, best of both worlds if you ask me.  Indirect for the heating season and electric for the summer, all in one!  

That said I use a heat-pump water heater in conjunction with my indirect.  Don't get any smaller than an 80gal if planning on any type of heat pump, slow recovery but cheap to run.  

Bottom of anyone's list is Vaughn, Amtrol, expensive and finned copper.  

TS


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## Otis B Driftwood (Mar 23, 2015)

Velvet and Maple: Read some more including a thread started in 2012 
when Velvet was in a similar boat and DANG, you guys are in the ballpark. 
I looked at my rough numbers and shore 'nuff, 150g in our lil' Bo Peep 
cape is what we consume. Again, numbers are REAL rough.

D'oh! can't believe the time burned reading all this and now I have to 
consider everything. Good thing I don't run on oil. CT Light and Power 
is currently charging 13¢ kwh direct. I'd prefer to get indirect electric, 
which means my neighbor pays the bill.

BoilerMan: GREAT compromise there. Have you crunched the winter 
numbers? Oil ain't gonna remain cheap. Tell you this, no way we're 
going to gas or tankless. Simple is best. Not even digital. I lost more 
fingers ... never mind, bad joke.


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## Seasoned Oak (Mar 24, 2015)

I cant even see the difference in my bill when i switch to electric hot water in the summer, the 30 Gal electric water heater must only use as much electricity as the fan and feed motor on ,my solid fuel boiler. And the 30 gal provides plenty of hot water for 6 people. My rates are about 10 c a KWH.


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## maple1 (Mar 24, 2015)

Otis B Driftwood said:


> Velvet and Maple: Read some more including a thread started in 2012
> when Velvet was in a similar boat and DANG, you guys are in the ballpark.
> I looked at my rough numbers and shore 'nuff, 150g in our lil' Bo Peep
> cape is what we consume. Again, numbers are REAL rough.
> ...


 
I wasn't necessarily saying you NEED to go electric - the main thing is now you've more fully assessed your situation and are considering it. I always had this 'phobia' of 'expensive electric hot water' the whole 17 years I had my oil unit, and ignorantly kept the oil guy coming all those years. Just didn't think about it much. But after having sent the oil man packing & getting rid of all our oil stuff 3 years ago - should have done it long ago, at least on the DHW side. I had a tankless coil, which is worse than an indirect, but if your oil boiler isn't cold start it might be almost as bad. We were looking at an oil tank replacement in our very near future - that was the real tipping point for us in yanking the oil out all together when I had to pick a backup heat source.


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## BadgerBoilerMN (Mar 24, 2015)

Boiler Man has it. The Heat-Flo looks good, but one of the few that we can't get here. Of course we just accepted the UPC and will, for the first time, allow single-wall indirects "officially" here in MN; whenever the Governor signs...


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## Bob Rohr (Mar 24, 2015)

And of course a dual coil with electric element would allow multiple inputs solar, wood fired, or electric.  Caleffi and others sell this type of tank for triple purpose.

I believe HeatFlo does also.  HeatFlo sells that tank under a bunch of names, once you recognize the "look" you will know the manufacturer.


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## Otis B Driftwood (Mar 24, 2015)

maple1 said:


> I always had this 'phobia' of 'expensive electric hot water' the whole 17 years I had my oil unit, and ignorantly kept the oil guy coming all those years.



This. The cost of apathy. Guilty as charged.


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## Otis B Driftwood (Mar 24, 2015)

BadgerBoilerMN said:


> Boiler Man has it. The Heat-Flo looks good, but one of the few that we can't get here. Of course we just accepted the UPC and will, for the first time, allow single-wall indirects "officially" here in MN; whenever the Governor signs...



Single-wall or all indirects? That's odd. Could be an interesting history there. 
Someone will write a book. Not me. That finger joke again.


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## Otis B Driftwood (Mar 24, 2015)

Bob Rohr said:


> And of course a dual coil with electric element would allow multiple inputs solar, wood fired, or electric.  Caleffi and others sell this type of tank for triple purpose.
> 
> I believe HeatFlo does also.  HeatFlo sells that tank under a bunch of names, once you recognize the "look" you will know the manufacturer.



Yep, iBC doesn't bother to disguise theirs much. Slap on an iBC sticker 
and throw it on the truck.

BUT ... anudder problem. I can't seem to find a manufacturer of these 
UNDER 60g ... what the heck? I need no more than a 40g tank! We 
have an Aero CF32T and has served us well.

Lastly, our boiler is a small Burnham PV83WC, yes, the "Notorious 
Leaker". No leaks, knock on wood. The Carlin oil burner is set to .75 
and is well under 100k BTUs. No idea if there's a Low Limit on it. The 
Honeywell aquastat on the Aero used to be set at 140°F, but the new 
oil guy dialed it down to 120°F, or so he said. Legionairres?


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## BadgerBoilerMN (Mar 24, 2015)

Hi Hot Rod,

I have a Rheem with single element and two 1 1/4" side taps at the bottom. 

The possibilities are endless...

120°F is the new ridiculous standard. 120 at the water heater, body temperature at the tap; at least until the mixing valve gets tired and the thing gets colder still. 

Legionella? It will kill you, for sure. Guess you have to pick one. 

Single wall of any kind not allowed. I might right the book but it will be short one. I can say that few showed up at the meeting and I was nearly alone presenting the case for the majority of indirects, plate HX and nearly all of the combi boiler water heater appliances taken for granted nearly everywhere in the world.


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## BoilerMan (Mar 24, 2015)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I cant even see the difference in my bill when i switch to electric hot water in the summer, the 30 Gal electric water heater must only use as much electricity as the fan and feed motor on .



I don't know about this statement..........As a previous owner/operator of an electric water heater (30gal) I can say it cost $30-40 a month to operate for my wife an I.  Our rate is .17/kWh.  Or between 176 and 235 kWh.  Or roughly 600,500 - 800,800btu for a 100% total efficiency.  Figure 85% of those numbers for standby loss (older heater).  This is my personal experience YMMV.  But certainly more than a fan............   



Bob Rohr said:


> And of course a dual coil with electric element would allow multiple inputs solar, wood fired, or electric.  Caleffi and others sell this type of tank for triple purpose.
> 
> I believe HeatFlo does also.  HeatFlo sells that tank under a bunch of names, once you recognize the "look" you will know the manufacturer.



My HeatFlo was marketed as an Oventrop solar tank.  Just the sticker, still the HeatFlo numbers and name. 

TS


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## Bob Rohr (Mar 24, 2015)

BadgerBoilerMN said:


> Hi Hot Rod,
> 
> I have a Rheem with single element and two 1 1/4" side taps at the bottom.
> 
> ...




I think the State of Montana recently dropped the double wall HX requirement, maybe others States will follow.  Thanks for carrying the torch 

Manufacturers hate building double walled HXers.  Performance, corrosion, cost, leak path, all sorts of challenges.


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## Otis B Driftwood (Mar 25, 2015)

As I understand it, the solars are basically indirect / electric bkups 
with expanded port options. My main thing here is waste during the 
summer months. I'm guessing we could've gotten away with turning 
off the boiler during the summer but it wouldn't have gotten the call 
for heat anyway, which is the beauty of an oil- or electric-fired WH. 
We never did that. Then again, I don't think it's good for having the 
oil settle too much. Over-worried?

The other prob we have going to an indirect / electric bkup is tank 
size. We don't need anything larger than 40g, but all these units 
start at 60g. As stated above, our 32g oil-fired Aero served us well. 
Would getting a 60g be stupid just to get bkup? Now, Oventrop is 
just upstairs from where I sit, so parts and service won't be an 
issue. Also noted they're Heat-Flos too. They're everywhere!

Correction: The Aero was put into service in '96, so it's actually 
nearly 20 years old, forgot to mention that. I personally think that 
all that hard water has actually kept it in service by plugging it up!


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## Seasoned Oak (Mar 25, 2015)

BoilerMan said:


> I don't know about this statement..........As a previous owner/operator of an electric water heater (30gal) I can say it cost $30-40 a month to operate for my wife an I.  Our rate is .17/kWh.  Or between 176 and 235 kWh.  Or roughly 600,500 - 800,800btu for a 100% total efficiency.  Figure 85% of those numbers for standby loss (older heater).  This is my personal experience YMMV.  But certainly more than a fan............


My electric bill is pretty much the same all year ,when the stoker is off the electric water heater is on ,save for a bump for late summer AC . My only explanation is the water heater does not use much more electricity than my boilers fan and pusher motor which does run 24/7 during the heating season. 
Im certain the Electric Water heater cost less to run than any oil fired appliance. My rate is .10 so that helps


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## Bob Rohr (Mar 25, 2015)

Otis B Driftwood said:


> As I understand it, the solars are basically indirect / electric bkups
> with expanded port options. My main thing here is waste during the
> summer months. I'm guessing we could've gotten away with turning
> off the boiler during the summer but it wouldn't have gotten the call
> ...



With a solar tank, the electric element is about 1/2 way up the tank, so it only heats the upper portion, leaving the bottom cold for best solar input.  

So a 60 gallon solar tank, when run on the electric element only give you about 30- 35 gallons.  If you are use to 40 gallons of DHW, you might consider an 80 gallon solar tank.


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## Otis B Driftwood (Mar 25, 2015)

Thanks Bob. Still dunno if having a 60g indirect / electric bkup
is the right choice since the most we have now is 32g. Unwise?

Your point in the 2nd post is valid: if the Aero ( Bradford White )
glass-lined worked well, stick with that.

So perhaps I've finally narrowed it down to Bradford, if they come
with an electric backup, or Heat-Flo. But would a 60g tank, which
is the smallest these seem to come in, be inefficient with the boiler
I have? Just as BoilerMan, I want the best of all worlds.


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## Bob Rohr (Mar 26, 2015)

Otis B Driftwood said:


> Thanks Bob. Still dunno if having a 60g indirect / electric bkup
> is the right choice since the most we have now is 32g. Unwise?
> 
> Your point in the 2nd post is valid: if the Aero ( Bradford White )
> ...




There are some 50 gallon solar tanks out there.  Keep in mind the electric element, being in the middle will only heat the upper 1/2 of the tank.  So with a 50 gallon solar tank, expect 25- 30 gallon of HW.

The 60 gallon buys you some wiggle room, nobody wants to run short of DHW.  

The HeatFlo 60 with element would be my suggestion.  Look for it as an Oventrop, or HBC and shop price.

Here is a peek inside a dual coil version. Nice thick insulation.  I like the large diameter SS coils, well spaced so they don't lime up.  The top connections are handy also.


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## Seasoned Oak (Mar 27, 2015)

Bob Rohr said:


> The 60 gallon buys you some wiggle room, nobody wants to run short of DHW.
> 
> .


There is one exception ,teenagers. When you have teenagers who want to spend an hour in the shower running out of hot water is a great way to cut it short. I have a 30 Gal electric and I never run out during a shower,cant say the same for the teenagers.


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## Otis B Driftwood (Mar 27, 2015)

Simon Oaks: You got that right. I tell my kid,

"Don't discover your body in MY shower. Oil's expensive. 
That's what the high school locker room is for."

We have 32g. Never ran out. That's my point: 
60g is nearly twice as much as we need. Is that 
inefficient to keep warm? Nobody answered this.

Thanks.


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## Bob Rohr (Mar 27, 2015)

The answer is yes it takes more energy to store 60 gallons compared to 32 gallons, all things being equal. 

 Keep in mind an indirect DHW tank does not have a flue pipe running thru the tank like fossil fueled tanks, so the standby loss of an indirect is much, much lower.  Simple heat transfer principles apply.

Again, with a 60 gallon solar tank, you are only heating 30 gallons with the electric element.  So you actually have a 30 gallon tank, in electric only mode.

 Also electric DHW tanks take much longer to recover compared to fuel fired.  Typically they have a 4.5 KW element, so 15,345 BTU/ hr input.  gas or oil fired are more like 35,000 BTU/hr or higher + twice the recovery time once you pull them down..

The ONLY time you heat the entire 60 gallons is when you flow into the coil in the bottom from your wood boiler, solar, whatever.  

This is the main reason you don't see solar tanks smaller that 60, a few 50 gallon.  There is not much DHW available via the electric element only.

We rarely sell a 50 gallon solar tank.  Even empty nester couples want more than 25 gallons of DHW. 

 The general rule of thumb for SDHW sizing has been  20 gallons per person per day.

With low flow faucets and shower heads I feel 20 gallons for the first person, 10 gallons per each additional person is more reasonable rule.
So a family of 4 would be 50 gallons per day DHW required.

In my 40 years of plumbing I have never had a customer complain that I provided too much DHW.  But I have under estimated a DHW number of times.


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## velvetfoot (Mar 27, 2015)

Bob Rohr said:


> Keep in mind an indirect DHW tank does not have a flue pipe running thru the tank like fossil fueled tanks,


No, but alas, the boiler providing the heat does.


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## Bob Rohr (Mar 27, 2015)

velvetfoot said:


> No, but alas, the boiler providing the head does.


Good point.  

Typically the boiler only fires on a DHW call for the indirect, at least in the non-heating season, so not the same standby loss as a WH that is maintained at 140F, or whatever.


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## Otis B Driftwood (Mar 27, 2015)

Yes, good point.

I talked to a Heat-Flo rep today. Solar wouldn't make sense price-wise
since I've no intention of solarizing our roof, what with the pitch and wrong
facing direction.

Chloride in the water will corrode stainless steel. A recent test revealed a
reading of ph7.2, which is safe. An older test revealed ph7.5 ( perfect ),
Chloride 12.2 ( EXTREMELY safe as max allowed is 250 ), Sodium 28.7
( HIGH as limit is 28 ), Sulfate 15.7 ( EXTREMELY safe as max allowed 
is 250 ). So the flag here is the Sodium level. No softener.

His final analysis: Talk to the installer.


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## maple1 (Mar 27, 2015)

Bob Rohr said:


> Good point.
> 
> Typically the boiler only fires on a DHW call for the indirect, at least in the non-heating season, so not the same standby loss as a WH that is maintained at 140F, or whatever.



Don't think we've heard for sure yet on whether the boiler in question is cold start or not?

On the tank size issue, our electric is 80 gallons and costs in the area of $25-30/mo, so don't think a bigger tank gives that much more operating expense. Sometimes its nice having hot water in reserve.


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## woodsmaster (Mar 28, 2015)

I have 12 year old 80 gallon Electric water heater. It cost me about $40/month to run it on electric. Its really a non issue since i heat it with wood all year via a side arm HX. I'm considering replacing it with 120 gallon if it ever springs a leak,so i can run my storage temps even lower. It has a rubber lining though so maybe it will last forever ? I heard they are going to outlaw those big tanks for efficiency reasons.


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## Bob Rohr (Mar 28, 2015)

Otis B Driftwood said:


> Yes, good point.
> 
> I talked to a Heat-Flo rep today. Solar wouldn't make sense price-wise
> since I've no intention of solarizing our roof, what with the pitch and wrong
> ...




The reason I am suggesting a solar tank is that it has an electric element back up for non-burn days or months.  It's the same tank as an indirect, just with a mid point element.

Over the years I've had my best luck with glass lined steel tanks.  Just keep the operating temperature below 180°F, maintain the anode rods and they last a long time.  Like your current tank has.  Stainless, as you discovered has some water quality limitations.  Glass coated steel, really just concerned about excessive thermal shocking.

Good idea talking to a local wholesale supplier, they get a good feel for what type of tank lasts in your area under your water conditions.  Or drive by their location and look in their "bone yard"  You will get  a good idea of warranty returns 

Here is a look inside a typical glass tank.  The large coils are also glass coated. It's 36 feet of 1-1/2" diameter coil.  Very low pressure drop, lots of surface area.
You'll find this same coil in most steel tanks, same manufacturer supplies them.


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## velvetfoot (Mar 28, 2015)

Hey Bob, what do you think of the life expectancy of my reverse indirect tank (Froling Energy Tank), which is used as a buffer tank and the domestic water goes through a 104' 1.25" corrugated stainless coil in the tank?  Buffer side is 108 gal. and dhw side is 11 gal.  The tank is steel.  My water is not chlorinated and I have a softener for lightly hard water.  Thanks.


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## Otis B Driftwood (Mar 28, 2015)

maple1 said:


> Don't think we've heard for sure yet on whether the boiler in question is cold start or not?
> 
> On the tank size issue, our electric is 80 gallons and costs in the area of $25-30/mo, so don't think a bigger tank gives that much more operating expense. Sometimes its nice having hot water in reserve.



The boiler? I don't know. I'm asking the installer during the estimate. 
The first of three or four came and went but I didn't know this much 
last week.

1 Kid = 1000g wasted water per week.


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## Otis B Driftwood (Mar 28, 2015)

woodsmaster said:


> I have 12 year old 80 gallon Electric water heater. It cost me about $40/month to run it on electric. Its really a non issue since i heat it with wood all year via a side arm HX. I'm considering replacing it with 120 gallon if it ever springs a leak,so i can run my storage temps even lower. It has a rubber lining though so maybe it will last forever ? I heard they are going to outlaw those big tanks for efficiency reasons.



Wood: Rubber lined? I see a joke around the corner ... 

Seriously, explain, I'm curious. TOO efficient? I can see 
such stupid legislation in The '60s, but now? Oh wait – 
"stupid legislation" ... hardly an oxymoron.


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## Otis B Driftwood (Mar 28, 2015)

Bob: Again, you're all kinds of awesome. Thanks for giving 
your precious time to this Olde Farte.

Would you mind explaining what's going on in that setup you 
posted of the glass tanks? I'm guessing what we're seeing is 
a backup tank on the right? It's the Frankenberry of HWHs ...


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## woodsmaster (Mar 28, 2015)

Not efficient enough. to much standby loss.


Otis B Driftwood said:


> Wood: Rubber lined? I see a joke around the corner ...
> 
> Seriously, explain, I'm curious. TOO efficient? I can see
> such stupid legislation in The '60s, but now? Oh wait –
> "stupid legislation" ... hardly an oxymoron.


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## woodsmaster (Mar 28, 2015)

i was surprised to find a rubber liner when I changed a heating element.


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## Bob Rohr (Mar 28, 2015)

velvetfoot said:


> Hey Bob, what do you think of the life expectancy of my reverse indirect tank (Froling Energy Tank), which is used as a buffer tank and the domestic water goes through a 104' 1.25" corrugated stainless coil in the tank?  Buffer side is 108 gal. and dhw side is 11 gal.  The tank is steel.  My water is not chlorinated and I have a softener for lightly hard water.  Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 156433


I like the concept of reverse indirect.  I have used a number of the Ergomax and TurboMax.  They got crazy expensive with a hundred pounds of copper tube inside them, however.  The corrugated stainless HX make sense, same reason Tom uses SS in his Solartechnic tanks now.  Less $$, encourages turbulent flow, easy to shape.

You do need to run them fairly hot to get the rated performance on the DHW side.  So not great if you want to pull the tank temperature way down for radiant or with ODR controls.  

Ideal for a separator/ DHW tank right along side the boiler.


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## Bob Rohr (Mar 28, 2015)

Otis B Driftwood said:


> Bob: Again, you're all kinds of awesome. Thanks for giving
> your precious time to this Olde Farte.
> 
> Would you mind explaining what's going on in that setup you
> ...




These pics were a couple ideas I had for drawback solar.  With the dual coil I was trying to allow the upper coil to be the drainback "air space" so I did not need an additional drawback tank.  It worked well as long as the collector loop volume was low.  It also had a prototype Grundfos Alpha as the DB pump.

The other pic shows using a typical off the shelf steel compression tank, slightly modified, as the DB tank.

The cut aways are just sample tanks that we take to various trade shows to demonstrate the tank features.


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## BadgerBoilerMN (Apr 1, 2015)

Bob Rohr said:


> I think the State of Montana recently dropped the double wall HX requirement, maybe others States will follow.  Thanks for carrying the torch
> 
> Manufacturers hate building double walled HXers.  Performance, corrosion, cost, leak path, all sorts of challenges.



EXACTLY

Don't forget the 1007 at the tub filler. To many engineers at the code table and not enough "working" plumbers...

Here in Minnesota the old plumbing code required double-wall, unless you were in the union and could/would jump through ridiculous technical hoops to meet the exception clause. 

We also gave Amtrol a monopoly on indirects for since they were first made. Disgraceful! 

Finally the State has run out of money for their own code and accepted the UPC, but before accepting they tried to sneak in a mandatory RPZ at the meter of every residential application, effectively killing indirects and combi boilers and water heaters forever. 

I presented the case for this class of appliances and heat exchangers noting the related EPA study and the UPC is now accepted with single wall (non-toxic) clause and all. 

Rock on Hot Rod!


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## BoilerMan (Apr 4, 2015)

BadgerBoilerMN said:


> they tried to sneak in a mandatory RPZ at the meter of every residential application, effectively killing indirects and combi boilers and water heaters forever.



Care to explain more?

TS


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## heaterman (Apr 6, 2015)

Back to the question first posed........
Triangle Tube = Vile McLain.  Stay away based on our experience.
Same goes for the newer low price version of indirect currently marketed by Heat Transfer Products.  Their Super Store Stainless tank/coil was-is good.

Viessmann is in a class by themselves for both quality and price on their 300 series tanks.
Buderus indirects truly suck. I think we have replaced every single one we have installed. 
Have not used Bradford White ever since their fiasco with the combination water heater/heating unit came and went. Very poor support back then on that product so....seeyah!

The Lochinvar Squire has been our go to indirect for the last several years and they have provided very good performance and done so with zero problems so far. We've installed all sizes up to 119 gallon. No issues whatsoever.

http://www.lochinvar.com/products/default.aspx?type=productline&lineid=50


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## Otis B Driftwood (Apr 7, 2015)

Tonight's a GOOD night. Fire's blazing down the last
of our good stock, and the wine's flowing.

Heaterman: Thanks. I think our Aero is a B/W. No probs.

That's my first question for the man come Thursday:
Glass or SS? Got a feeling ...

Really interested in Bob's suggestion of a 60g solar with
electric B/U. Heats only the top 30g in summer.

Reverse Indirect has me intrigued too: The boiler water
is shot into the TANK, not the coil. I would think a simple
connection change would turn your basic Heat-Flo into
a reverse. Caveat is I dunno if our Lil' Bo Peep Burnham
can keep it happy and there may not be enough coil.

Any further experiences with reverse indirect setups?

This post brought to you by: Cheap Wine.


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## Otis B Driftwood (Apr 9, 2015)

Well, that was interesting. Guy came by this AM. 
Nice, caught something in our setup and confirmed 
our boiler is cold startup. He recommended Vaughn's 
stone-lined tanks. Whatever.

Buuut ... he had no idea what reverse indirects were. 
There went my "informational interview".


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## Bob Rohr (Apr 9, 2015)

Otis B Driftwood said:


> Well, that was interesting. Guy came by this AM.
> Nice, caught something in our setup and confirmed
> our boiler is cold startup. He recommended Vaughn's
> stone-lined tanks. Whatever.
> ...




The main thing to watch with reverse indirect is their performance at various tank temperatures.  Generally their output is rated with a fairly high tank temperature.  Ergomax used to be rated at 190F tank temperatures.

The Vaughn tanks last a long time and have plenty of thermal mass, but I'm not a fan of finned copper coil style HX.  Hard water can really limit their output.


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## velvetfoot (Apr 9, 2015)

My Froling Energy Tank indirect has performed well for us even down to 135; not sure about 'rated' though.  We got it mostly for the buffer tank aspect of it for use with the pellet boiler.  It extends the run time of the oil boiler too when that is running, so I thought that was a good idea as well.  Downside is keeping 120 gallons warm all the time and the cost of the tank.


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## DaveBP (Apr 10, 2015)

Bob,
is there any difference (in your experience) between the hard water scaling problem with finned exchanger tubing if it is made of copper or copper/nickel alloy?


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## tom in maine (Apr 10, 2015)

A  Vaughn tank might be a great solution. If you are concerned about internal HX, then use a standard tank without one and use an external plate hx. They do last a very long time.
They are heavy as hell. They were my motivation to make modular tanks. I could not handle them by myself when starting out.


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## Bob Rohr (Apr 10, 2015)

I heard some leak issues since Vaughn started putting the coil into the top of the tank, Top Performer I think they call it.
  Don't know why they do that, other than keeping the coil out of the scale build up?

I've found finned type coils are more prone to build up on the outside, regardless of the material.

the hotter you supply to the coil, the more minerals precipitate out and cling to the spaces.  Either a smooth coil, or the corrugated type stainless are my choice.


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## Otis B Driftwood (Apr 14, 2015)

Amazingly, I can still read. I thought my eyeballs would roast at this point. 

So ... here's where I'm at: 

• Cold start Burnham is verified, good. SS around here, good, lasts

• Still considering Rob's Heat-Flo solar single coil setup w/ electric bkup, buuut ...

• An indirect with heat traps and pipe insulation are cost effective options that can 
make Old Man Oil attractive

• Improved GE manufacturing has forced me to return to the GeoSpring, yes, 
our little mechanically ( or electrically ) challenged buddy that sprung some 
serious issues upon inception. BTW, not surprised one bit at corporate 
response ... see, if corporations are people, one can assume they can 
act like spoiled brats. Or is that "a$$hats"?

• AO Smith and the Geyser folks are an option, but it seems Smitty has customer 
service / warranty issues, I dunno

• Our friend Velvetfoot thinks HPWH are a bit too noisy for prime time. Literally. 
See, our TV is right above our system one floor up

• Conventional electric water heaters larger than 60g will be a thing of the past, 
but we can still swing a 40g no problem

• Haven't looked at all into geothermal but I suspect my swell of hot air would 
more than compensate, according to my kid


Finally,

• If I do stick with the Heat-Flo indirect, what should I get should I decide 
to compliment our system with an additional wood boiler? THAT idea subject 
to Mr Wife's approval. Dunno if she'd dig shovin' in big logs any time of day. 
Say! without trying, I just committed a weird double-entendre. Yay me.


Met the third potential installer today. He was the one who suggested AO Smith 
as an alternative but likes the Heat-Flo indirect and thinks that simple setup w/o 
electric bkup is fine too. Then again, he does work for the oil company ...

This just in: Brother Bart telepathically told me to quit messing around and kick 
oil to the curb. What am I going to comb my hair with then?


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## velvetfoot (Apr 14, 2015)

Otis B Driftwood said:


> Our friend Velvetfoot thinks HPWH are a bit too noisy for prime time. Literally.
> See, our TV is right above our system one floor up


That shouldn't be  problem.  I have an add on hpwh.


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## Otis B Driftwood (Apr 15, 2015)

How long have you had it? Those reviews were less than sterling.

Trying to get a feel for the noise factor though it shouldn't be an ish. 
After all, our direct is as loud as the boiler.


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## velvetfoot (Apr 15, 2015)

Almost a year.  I'm not sure my unit is still available-it was a closeout.  Here is my install thread, for what it's worth:  https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/my-nyletherm-thread.127866/


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## maple1 (Apr 15, 2015)

*Brother Bart telepathically told me to quit messing around and kick oil to the curb.*

That's what I did - best move I ever made. No telepathy involved though, lol...


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## Otis B Driftwood (Apr 16, 2015)

I'm eliminating the heat pump from the running because of the compressor.
I just don't like the idea of putting something down there that may die when
we need it most. I don't care what the quality of the newer units are, GE and
the other American companies have acted in very BAD faith for too long to
convince me to come crawling back to them. Whirlpool, this goes for YOU, too.


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## Fred61 (Apr 16, 2015)

Shouldn't just eliminate sumpin cuz it has a compressor. How you going to keep your beer cold?


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## velvetfoot (Apr 16, 2015)

American company?  GE appliances now owned by Electrolux, a Swedish company:  http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/09/08/ge-appliances-sold-to-electrolux/15270661/


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## Otis B Driftwood (Apr 16, 2015)

Fred61 said:


> Shouldn't just eliminate sumpin cuz it has a compressor. How you going to keep your beer cold?



Ice! that's why I strap it to Mrs Driftwood's forehead.


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## Otis B Driftwood (Apr 16, 2015)

velvetfoot said:


> American company?  GE appliances now owned by Electrolux, a Swedish company:  http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/09/08/ge-appliances-sold-to-electrolux/15270661/



Didn't know that but not surprised. Given how GE's finance arm
strangled the appliance division to death, I'd spin it off too. Knowing 
Aerus/Electrolux®, it's still spinning. Maybe they oughta spin off a 
knit clothes division so we can wash their crappy clothes with their 
crappy appliances.


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## BoilerMan (Apr 18, 2015)

Consider that the average refrigeration appliance lasts 20+ years....  I'm just talking about the conpressor and closed system.  You can get that zact same add-on HPWH as me on ebay for $365.  Also note that I have a Heat-Flo brant indirect and it is connected to oil and wood.  So I have in effect 3 energy sources to heat water with, individually or simultaneously.   

TS


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## JP11 (Apr 20, 2015)

velvetfoot said:


> Almost a year.  I'm not sure my unit is still available-it was a closeout.  Here is my install thread, for what it's worth:  https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/my-nyletherm-thread.127866/



Getting ready to flip the switch on mine. On my last pallet of wood that I'm going to burn for this year.  Anxious to see how it keeps up.  My indirect tank it will be heating is an 80... and there's just the wife and I.  We'll see.  Tom is no longer selling those units with support.  He's dropped the price way down.  He's selling a different one now.  I think the website is heating stuff LLC.  or something similar.  I was just looking at his site the other day.


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## EatenByLimestone (Apr 20, 2015)

Late to the party...

Buderus (Bosch) has a 31 gallon indirect.  I've had it for 4, maybe 5 years now and it's worked great.  I had 1 customer service issue in that they don't like to talk to consumers and I couldn't get them to answer a question about running the tank off a smaller than recommended boiler.  I called back as a technician from "Matt's heating and cooling" and they answered the question without issue.  The reason I called is my boiler is way oversized for my house after a lot of home improvements.  Never had an issue with the operation of the unit.

http://www.supplyhouse.com/Buderus-...er?utm_source=pricegrabberCSE&utm_content=S32


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## tom in maine (Apr 20, 2015)

There are still some Nyletherms available although the Etech is what is being sold on Ebay. Both are the same cost and operation. The Etechs seem slightly quieter although either one in a basement is quieter than a window AC unit. Maybe the same sound level as a dehumidifier(?) If the basement door is closed they are hardly audible.
They are on Ebay or www.heatingstuffllc.com
Both were made in the US.


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## Otis B Driftwood (Apr 21, 2015)

BoilerMan said:


> Consider that the average refrigeration appliance lasts 20+ years....  I'm just talking about the conpressor and closed system.  You can get that zact same add-on HPWH as me on ebay for $365.  Also note that I have a Heat-Flo brant indirect and it is connected to oil and wood.  So I have in effect 3 energy sources to heat water with, individually or simultaneously.
> 
> TS



BoilerMan, curious: why so many sources?


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## Otis B Driftwood (Apr 22, 2015)

tom in maine said:


> There are still some Nyletherms available although the Etech is what is being sold on Ebay.



Thanks, Tom. I'm gonna watch your vid with Mrs Driftwood right now.

Nothing like a little "cold on the shoulder" heat pump porn on the telly, no?


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## Otis B Driftwood (Apr 27, 2015)

Tom, can that work with an oil indirect?


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## maple1 (Aug 8, 2019)

Spam alert!

(The Boiler Advice thread also....)


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