# Long time coming--installed a Lopper Drummer 45 boiler



## Onfoot (Jan 2, 2014)

It's been a good while since checking in on the forum, but after more than two years of digging around and researching options, I decided to go with a Lopper Drummer 45 boiler.  This was to replace my much loved and faithful Tarm Solo Plus 140 that served me for some 9 years but was not up to the heat load demands of the homestead after I added 1200 sq. ft. of heated space.  I also replaced the 800 gallon heat sink with a 2000 gallon heat sink (unpressurized).  The install was completed in August and I am now able to report on my experience.

(I will be brief, but am happy to answer questions that may occur to forum members--though I am an amateur compared to many of  you!)

The first couple of months involved a significant learning curve.  The Lopper has a sophisticated computer-controlled interface that monitors a range of data, including:  O2 content, flue gas temp, fan rotation speed, supply temp, return temp, heat sink temp, primary damper opening and secondary damper opening.  All of these (and more) have settings that can be adjusted and fine-tuned.  (Beginning with whether you are burning cordwood or chips--you can burn either.)

Getting it 'right' involved experimenting with different settings and observing how the system managed.  I cannot say enough positive things about the support and help that I received from Mark and Ray at
http://www.loppernorthamerica.com/ during the learning curve.

I also need to acknowledge the help of Tom at http://www.americansolartechnics.com/, who went way beyond the call of duty when he provided the custom liner for my homemade 2000 gallon heat sink.

Bottom line is that the system is working great.  Even at -40C/F, the Lopper has been more than able to keep up with my heat load.  And, over all, I am burning less wood than with my old system.  (The Tarm needed to be 'helped out' by also having a fire on the Vermont Castings woodstove in the Great Room--this is no longer needed.)

The Lopper is extraordinarily well built with a large and easily loadable burn chamber.  Among other features that I appreciate is that the draft fan is on the exhaust gas side of the boiler, effectively sucking air into the burn chamber and pushing it out the flue.  This allows the firebox to have a top loading door, through which you literally can drop the wood into the firebox.  When the loading door is opened, the fan goes to max % rotation, sucking the smoke down and allowing for a virtually smoke-free loading experience.  (This was definitely not my experience with the Tarm, and is much appreciated.)

That's about it.  There are a growing number of good wood-gasification boilers out there, but I am very happy with my decision to go with the Lopper Drummer 45.


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## Onfoot (Jan 2, 2014)

Forgot to add that it is simple and convenient to clean--considerably easier than my Tarm was, in fact.


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## PassionForFire&Water (Jan 3, 2014)

Congrats!

45 meaning 45 kW (or 153,540 BTU/hr) ?

I checked their website. Looks like this is a Swiss/German parent company.
Never heard of them, and never ran into them at shows in Europe the last 3 to 4 years.

Did you end up with buying some specific spare parts for in case something breaks down?

And, ... oh yes, we want to see pictures on this forum


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## jebatty (Jan 3, 2014)

Another intriguing gasifier. Even an automated split loader.
http://www.loppernorthamerica.com/index.html


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## maple1 (Jan 3, 2014)

Very interesting indeed. Yes, we need pics & more details. 


Care to share the MSRP? Certainly looks like a well built unit.


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## PassionForFire&Water (Jan 3, 2014)

jebatty said:


> Another intriguing gasifier. Even an automated split loader.



This is a movie (in Dutch) on the wood loading system.
Normally the door of the wood storage room is closed and the wood does align itself nicely.
Cool system!
Swiss made, will be top $$$


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## PassionForFire&Water (Jan 3, 2014)

And .... interesting automatic ignition concept, ... .at the end of this movie clip.


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## PassionForFire&Water (Jan 3, 2014)

Sorry got all exited
Must be the 20" of snow that was dumped in my yard over night


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## Onfoot (Jan 3, 2014)

Whoa, guys!  I installed a Drummer 45, not the Dragon with the automatic feed!  (Great name, eh?)  I live off-grid and could imagine too much going wrong with the autofeed feature and, especially, could imagine the drain on my battery bank when I watched that auto-ignition element glowing white hot!  

So the Drummer 45 is fed by me.  I really appreciate the loading technology (dropping in from the top), and the size of the burn chamber--7.4 cubic feet, with 21" cord lengths.  (I can also burn chips, but have not done so yet.  I do have a chipper that I use in the summer and may try saving some chips for burning, just to see how it does.)

I have no idea what the '45' refers to in the model designation, but it is not the BTUs (or kWhs).  The 45 is rated at just under 209,000 BTUs/hr, maximum.  Typical burn time with my pine/spruce/poplar (best I can do in this part of the world) is about 4 hours.  You can explore all the technical specs here: http://www.lopper.ch/index.php/en/products/logwood-boilers?id=109

The boiler is, as we say in the Yukon, extremely 'skookum' (i.e., extraordinarily well engineered and heavy duty build).  The burn chamber is encased in 3/8" high quality steel, with Bavarian German engineering in evidence throughout.  (The factory is located in a small Bavarian town.)

I will post a few pics.  The boiler is located in the 'boiler room' of my detached garage/shop and there were a few minor compromises necessary to fit it into the space that had been occupied by the previous Tarm, mostly to do with needing a longer flue run than would have been needed if I was starting from scratch.  But FYI.

Picture 1:  The faithful Tarm and the old heat sink.
Picture 2:  Reviewing the tangle of heat exchangers in the old heat sink.
Picture 3:  The Lopper Drummer 45 in situ.
Picture 4:  Building the new 2000 gal. heat sink.
Picture 5:  Yours truly placing the heat exchange loops in the new heat sink.
Picture 6:  All the heat exchange lines into and out of the heat sink.
Picture 7:  Grandson helping bring the wood in.  
Picture 8:  Lots of copper feeding the heat sink.  Garden hose for bleeding the loops as we got things up and running.


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## Vizsla (Jan 3, 2014)

No need to heat the shop, that's a lot of pipe.  I'm guessing the shiney cover is what sold ya....
Everything looks nice and organized


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## Onfoot (Jan 3, 2014)

Vizsla said:


> No need to heat the shop, that's a lot of pipe.  I'm guessing the shiney cover is what sold ya....
> Everything looks nice and organized


True enough about the shop--it's always the warmest place on the property!  I am gradually getting all the pipes insulated as well as possible, mind you!  

And I do confess to being attracted to the diamond plate!  

Also, FYI, here is what the computer screen on the control panel looked like a few moments ago, just before starting a burn--first since yesterday afternoon.  In the way of explanation:  F1 is Supply Temp., F2 is Flue Gas Temp., F3 is Return Temp., F4 is the Heat Sink Temp.  PK and SK are the Primary and Secondary Dampers.  O2% is the Oxygen content of the flue gas.  Geblase % is the % speed of the Fan.  The three triangles on the right are the mixing valve and the triangle in the circle is the circulating pump.  "Material" can be "coarse" (cord wood) or "fine" (chips).  (The Lopper folks have not quite got all the German labels converted to English, but it has not been too much trouble to figure it out.  The manual has been translated, at least.)

All of these parameters can be adjusted to reflect the individual circumstances of the boiler--the type of heat storage, type of wood, heat demands, etc. and etc.  It took me several weeks of experimentation to get to what feels like a sweet spot for my situation.


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## PassionForFire&Water (Jan 3, 2014)

20.9% O2 seems a touch to high.
Ok, I got it, this is just before the burn.

Just curious:
- what testing agency did the UL/CSA listing/certification for this model?
- Is this a 110V/60Hz wood boiler?


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## Onfoot (Jan 3, 2014)

PassionForFire&Water said:


> 20.9% O2 seems a touch to high.
> Ok, I got it, this is just before the burn.
> 
> Just curious:
> ...



Yep.  The O2 is what we are breathing, eh?    During a burn it typically is between 2 and 6%.

Too the best of my knowledge, the UL/CSA work was done by (or at least commissioned by) Lopper North America--though of course it would have required the involvement of third party, independent labs.

Voltage is 240, single phase (European).  I did not design my off grid system to provide 240v, so have a toroidal transformer to turn my 120 to 240v.  (The toroidal transformers are 90-95% efficient and have almost no standby drain.)  Having 60 Hertz means that the fan rotates at somewhat higher RPMs than would be the case at 50 Hertz.  All the rest of the electronics and etc. are DC--so the 240v is being converted to DC to run most of the boiler.  And I am using a Grundfos Magna pump which is also 240v and is run directly from the boiler control system.  So makes for good match.


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## Onfoot (Jan 3, 2014)

FYI, here is the data screen after not quite 3 hours into a burn.  Passion for Fire&Water will note the O2 percentage is considerably improved when there is a fire on...  

Delta T is pretty consistent at 10C to 12C (about 18F to 21F)


	

		
			
		

		
	
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## heaterman (Jan 3, 2014)

Lopper is the real deal. A lot like a Kob


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## Chris Hoskin (Jan 6, 2014)

heaterman said:


> Lopper is the real deal. A lot like a Kob



I had the same thought, heaterman.  Anyone know if one is the OEM for the other?


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## heaterman (Jan 6, 2014)

I'm not at liberty to name names but the Lopper is built here in the states and headed up by a couple guys who are "into" the wood burning scene right up to their eyeballs. There are some really good people behind this and I wish them well.

The Lopper is basically the design that KOB started out with before they were bought by Viessmann and "watered down" somewhat. Top notch stuff here that takes a back seat to no boiler on the market.


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## Chris Hoskin (Jan 6, 2014)

interesting, heaterman.  With the 240V / 50hz issues, I assumed European mfg.


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## heaterman (Jan 6, 2014)

The boiler is made here, not sure about controls. I'm thinking there is also direct "German bloodline" involved in the boiler design.  Just guessing there but from what I have seen of early Kob units in the past, this one sure appears to be a knock off or maybe even a copy.


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## henfruit (Jan 6, 2014)

When I spoke to them. They said they were waiting for boilers to arrive from Europe? They also said they had not had them ul tested yet.


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## Vizsla (Jan 6, 2014)

There are lots of versions of made in the USA. And sometimes it's just stickered or labeled here. Can't put AGA or ASME labels on outside of the states. 
Either way. Nice unit, and anything German is a good design.  I don't know what would be so secret about a few names unless there is something to hide. 
Nothing a business search or origin of materials wouldn't reveal.

Its common knowledge there are plans to keep increasing regulations ,control fuel sources and types until only a few can meet them and stay in business.


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## hobbyheater (Jan 6, 2014)

Congratulations!  
Very impressive!


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## heaterman (Jan 6, 2014)

Might have jumped the gun here and assumed that these were current production in the States. I have to backtrack and say the model you have may be of European manufacture. I have not talked with the parties I know are involved with this project in half a year or so. That being the case, I'm making assumptions, so I'll simply say that you have a very well made and designed boiler regardless of where it came from.

I can say that I was told US production models will be ASME/CSA/UL listed. Looking forward to seeing these on the market as I have always thought that was a really good design. Negative draft, side fire instead of down fire, precision combustion control.....there is probably nothing to dislike about this boiler other than possibly the price. I do not know what they cost.


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## Onfoot (Jan 6, 2014)

Heaterman and co., I can tell you that the boiler was definitely manufactured from start to finish in Germany, at the Lopper factory in the village of Alzhausen in Bavaria.  That is where I arranged for it to be picked up and shipped to Skagway, Alaska, where I picked it up with my F250 and brought it home to Whitehorse, Yukon.   (I always prefer to make my own shipping arrangements.) The folks at Lopper North America are the distributors in North America and I arranged the purchase through them.  (And can vouch for their thorough-going helpfulness from start to finish.)  I had planned to install it 12 months earlier, but needed to wait for UL/CSA approval process to be completed.  It is rather involved and complicated and took longer than I had hoped, but I was not prepared to risk purchasing a non-CSA approved boiler.

I cannot speak to the Kob connection, as I am not familiar with Kob--though it appears to be connected with Viessmann, the company that manufactured my oil 'back up' boiler.  Lopper has been manufacturing boilers since 1989 from their factory in Alzhausen.  You can read about the company and its history here: http://www.lopper.ch/index.php/en/about-us.  

From personal experience in Bavaria, I can say that they describe a not uncommon phenomenon--a small village with one dedicated factory making very high quality product.  I was in correspondence with the Lopper folks in Germany directly as part of my becoming familiar with the Lopper North America folks.  Whatever may happen down the road, Lopper boilers at this point are 100% German manufactured.

Of course they are not cheap...  But price and value are two different things and I am happy with the value I received for the investment.  And living off-grid in this Northern climate as I do, I am prepared to invest in solid, dependable equipment.


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## Onfoot (Feb 16, 2014)

In the way of an update, after all my fine-tuning, and using the efficiency tables attached to this post, I am happy to report that I am averaging 80-83% efficiency at capturing the BTUs in my cordwood for my heatsink.  I.e., I am losing less then 20% of the available heat up the flue.  To my mind this is quite good.  

(The efficiency %'s reported for the various wood gasification boilers are typically reporting how much of the wood is converted to heat, not how much of the potential heat is actually captured by the system.  So a boiler may be 90% efficient at burning wood, but that does not tell you how much of that heat is actually captured for the heating system.)

I am quite impressed.  Last couple of weeks I had no trouble keeping ahead of the heat demands, even at -40C/F.


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## jebatty (Feb 17, 2014)

Tell me more about how you measured efficiency. I think anything in the 80+% range is good, and obviously the higher the better. I have used two methods. Both methods use weighed wood burns and assume 20% moisture content and 400F average flue temperature, and with those assumptions wood has heat content of 6040 btu/lb of available energy

1) Conduct burn with the entire output going to storage, no other system demand, measure the increase in temperature of the storage over a period of time, calculate stored btu's. Not measured in this method is heat loss from the boiler itself, the plumbing and the storage tank. For my system the plumbing and the storage tank are both quite well insulated.

2) Conduct burn with known boiler gpm flow rate, log supply and return temperatures over time, and calculate btu output of the boiler over time. Not measured in this method is heat loss from the boiler itself.

Both of these methods measure heat captured to the system.


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## Onfoot (Feb 18, 2014)

jebatty said:


> Tell me more about how you measured efficiency.



I was simply using the tables that I attached to my previous post, extrapolating a bit, given my moisture content at 15%.  The Lopper control panel shows me the flue temp and O2 content, giving me two parameters needed for the tables.


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## Spartan (Feb 19, 2014)

A late congrats on your purchase!

I was reading up on "rotary grates" and lo and behold, your thread showed up.

It started with this beast and what so special about them......

http://www.carborobot.co.uk/

Which led me to do a bit more research on "rotary grates" and the Lopper name showed up.  If it's remotely possible can you take some pictures of it?

I have been scouring the net on ideas oh how to burn from dust to 1" chunks of junk wood without having to reprocess it into pellets. In fact, last night I was working on hogging concept that would turn my junk into chips at about a half a ton an hour with a 5hp motor. Unfortunately, most of the technology on how to burn it has been cornered by the Europeans and without CSA and/or UL, I can't use them because of insurance.


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## TCaldwell (Feb 20, 2014)

Onfoot now that you have the parameters dialed in, I have a few questions. I have not heard you mention of a o2 setpoint that the boiler would try to maintain throughout a burn, only that a burn varies from 2 to 6%. Also on the second screen shot it shows a fan speed of 15.9% is this because the approx 185degf supply temp is nearing its high end, are there other factors that cause the fan to run less than 100%.
thanks  tom


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## Onfoot (Feb 28, 2014)

Spartan said:


> A late congrats on your purchase!
> 
> I was reading up on "rotary grates" and lo and behold, your thread showed up.
> 
> ...



Sorry to be so long in replying, Spartan.  I am not sure what you would like a photo of.  I have attached a copy of the Lopper boiler brochure that explains and shows the honeycomb grates that form the bottom of the burn chamber.  Perhaps that will provide what you are looking for?  As for burning chips, the controls give the option of burning what they call 'coarse' (i.e., cordwood) or 'fine' (chips).  Each has its own set of parameters about fan speeds, damper controls and etc.  I have not tried burning chips yet, so cannot speak to that.  The operating manual describes this as:   "Choose “Coarse” for split logwood or similar piece sizes of wood fuel and “Fine” for wood fuel pieces that are chip-sized (10 cm x 10 cm x 10 cm) or smaller."

Happy to respond to further questions if I can.

Barrett


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## Onfoot (Feb 28, 2014)

TCaldwell said:


> Onfoot now that you have the parameters dialed in, I have a few questions. I have not heard you mention of a o2 setpoint that the boiler would try to maintain throughout a burn, only that a burn varies from 2 to 6%. Also on the second screen shot it shows a fan speed of 15.9% is this because the approx 185degf supply temp is nearing its high end, are there other factors that cause the fan to run less than 100%.
> thanks  tom



Good questions, Tom.  There is not an O2 set point.  The adjustable parameters are fan speed minimums and maximums (for the Start, Burn A and Burn B stages of the burn cycle), primary and secondary damper minimums and maximums, various temperature set points (e.g., maximum for exhaust gas temps, and etc.)  I do not know if the controls are adjusting anything (e.g., the dampers and/or fan) on the basis of O2 readings.

The fan plays a significant role in managing the burn cycle.  For the mature Burn B cycle, I currently have its max. set at 32% and minimum set at 18%.  Part of the fine tuning for me involved trying different fan speeds, narrowing the difference between minimum and maximum to keep flue temperature as close as possible to about 150C.  (Affected by the average moisture content of my wood and the species of the wood.)

My maximum supply temp is set at 95C.  If it hits that temperature, the fan would stop and the dampers would close.

Hope that is helpful.  

Barrett


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## Spartan (Mar 3, 2014)

Onfoot said:


> Sorry to be so long in replying, Spartan.  I am not sure what you would like a photo of.  I have attached a copy of the Lopper boiler brochure that explains and shows the honeycomb grates that form the bottom of the burn chamber.  Perhaps that will provide what you are looking for?  As for burning chips, the controls give the option of burning what they call 'coarse' (i.e., cordwood) or 'fine' (chips).  Each has its own set of parameters about fan speeds, damper controls and etc.  I have not tried burning chips yet, so cannot speak to that.  The operating manual describes this as:   "Choose “Coarse” for split logwood or similar piece sizes of wood fuel and “Fine” for wood fuel pieces that are chip-sized (10 cm x 10 cm x 10 cm) or smaller."
> 
> Happy to respond to further questions if I can.
> 
> Barrett



Not much more then a curiosity on how it burns chips and how the grates work. From what I gather, it's not auger feeding them so I wondered how it burned what amounts to a boiler filled with very fine kindling. 

Perhaps when you run some chips through it, let us know.


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## TCaldwell (Mar 5, 2014)

Thanks Barrett, it seems that the p/s dampers objective is to control o2 and the fan speed to maintain a flue temp[ boiler output] within a given o2 range for different stages of the burn, and output reduction when reaching max storage temp. Sorry for the radio silence, life got busy for awhile.
tom


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## ciri (Nov 24, 2014)

Hi  Onfoot, your setup looks great. My parents recently got their hands on a drummer 45, and they're having problems with it...is there any chance you could send me a few pictures of inside the cleaning door...not sure if their firebricks are set up correctly.

I'd really appreciate it if you could find the time to do this.

Thanks,
Ciri


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## Onfoot (Nov 24, 2014)

Hi Ciri.  I will endeavour to take a photo this evening...  FYI, after more than a year, I remain deeply impressed by the boiler.  What kind of problems are your parents having?

Barrett


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## ciri (Nov 24, 2014)

Thanks a million Barrett, that'd be great.  The problem is that after starting the boiler it runs in 'START' mode for a while before slipping back to 'SP' mode, which according to the manual is a storage mode. It never goes to 'FIRE' mode.

Having gone through the manual, I'm pretty sure that it never gets to 'FIRE' because the flue temp never gets high enough..it runs for about an hour and only gets to about 90-100deg before going to 'SP'.

We did have a problem with the flue deflector not being installed correctly..must have shifted during transit. I think that's ok now, but that's why I would like a picture to compare.


Thanks again for your help,
Ciri


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## Onfoot (Nov 25, 2014)

Apologies, Ciri.  Started the fire tonight before remembering to take a photo.  Will try to remember tomorrow morning!


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## ciri (Nov 25, 2014)

Onfoot said:


> Apologies, Ciri.  Started the fire tonight before remembering to take a photo.  Will try to remember tomorrow morning!


Not to worry,
Thanks Barrett.


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## Onfoot (Nov 25, 2014)

Hi Ciri.  Not sure how much it will help, but here is a photo of what is revealed when I open the side clean-out door.  The problem you describe about the start mode not moving through to Burn A and then Burn B is difficult to respond to as I do not know the setup with heat storage, wood species, etc.  With my boiler, I spent a couple of months fine-tuning all the parameters with the very patient help of the technical support from Lopper USA folks.  Having said that, I am sure that your parents' issue is a combination of setting min and max fan speeds for the various burn stages, along with the flue temps.  The Start phase needs to have a higher fan speed, typically, to ensure that the fire gets well and truly burning.  Given the number of possible variations and configurations, I am reluctant to offer suggestions for any one parameter.  From whom did your parents obtain the boiler?  Is there not some technical support?  If it was helpful, I would be happy to have a Skype conversation in front of my controls explaining my various settings.  Happy to help in any way that I can.


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## ciri (Dec 1, 2014)

Hi Barrett, thanks for your reply, sorry I didn't get back to you sooner but I didn't receive any email notification & thought that maybe you hadn't got around to taking the picture yet. Thanks a million for that!

We've had a bit of joy since..it turned out that a lot of the firebricks that make up the combustion chamber had moved quite a bit in transit...got them sorted now..we hope!  

This was causing our problem as secondary combustion wasn't taking place & we weren't achieving high enough temps.

Since we rearranged the bricks, it's working well & moves from Burn A to Burn B without a problem. I'm still not convinced however that the firebricks are set up 100% correctly. The firebricks do not meet up completely to make the chamber completely airtight (aside from in/out vents). I'll send you a picture shortly to show you what I mean.

We bought the boiler from the lopper supplier in Ireland & so far they haven't been at all helpful..their 'lopper guy' has been ill, now he's back, but he has never installed this model 

I really appreciate your help & will send on the picture shortly.

Thanks again,

Ciri


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## ciri (Dec 1, 2014)

Hi Barrett, me again...just came across a german version of the manual online..this had a diagram of the correct setup for the combustion chamber ( wasn't in the english one we have). Have everything set up perfectly now...will get it lit tomorrow & see what happens!


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