# Bomb shelter , cesspool/septic tank or buried propane tank ?



## oldgrezmonke (Feb 8, 2009)

We are looking at an 60-70 year old rural house that we might buy . Out in the back yard is a good sized metal tube [@18-24" dia.] sticking straight up about a foot with a slightly rusted through lid that is equipped to be padlocked . I have not yet looked into this thing . I don't think it's a bomb shelter as there should be vents some where near and the tube doesn't look big enough to climb down . There are two things I think it might be : an old cesspool [maybe a septic tank ?] or an old buried propane tank . I know what I would see if it is a propane tank . If it is a cesspool or septic tank , I presume I would see and probably smell [yes , I know to let it ventilate before looking inside] human waste-does anyone know if there is any visual difference likely between the two that would be visible from such an access point ? I will be contacting the real estate agent before/if we decide to take another look but I want to be prepared to try to figure it out myself if need be . Sorry , I don't have any pictures .  I have searched the internet and cannot find anything that looks like this . Thanks for any ideas .


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## JustWood (Feb 8, 2009)

Could be a dry well.
Sounds like a flashlite and bolt cutters are your best bet. Close it back up with a bolt and lock nut.


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## oldgrezmonke (Feb 8, 2009)

Blah Ho Vick said:
			
		

> Could be a dry well.
> Sounds like a flashlite and bolt cutters are your best bet. Close it back up with a bolt and lock nut.


Flashlight-definitely , bolt cutters-no need , it has a hasp for a padlock but no padlock , just a really old tire [think model A Ford] and a large rock on top . A dry well would be better than two of the possibilities . Have you seen something like this that was a dry well ?


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## JustWood (Feb 8, 2009)

There is a few farms around here that have them for irrigation purposes. Could be a mine vent also.


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## bsruther (Feb 9, 2009)

That's where they keep the bodies.


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## Corey (Feb 9, 2009)

First, I'd be extremely careful if you actually intend to enter the space.  There are gasses that are odorless, colorless, etc and heavier than air...methane, CO2, etc.  You could go in, pass out and never come back up.  Worst part is if someone comes to your rescue, they could suffer the same fate.  Probably not a bad idea to have someone standing by and instruct them not to come in after you but to get additional help.  Anyway...

I don't think you'd actually be able to crawl into a propane tank.  Those are pressure vessels so there isn't likely to be a hatch that a man could get through.  Propane tank would also have hemispherical ends - again due to the pressure, while any type of septic tank or other storage tank, I suspect,  would have simple flat ends.  It could also be an old cistern...possibly with ties to the house gutters for fresh water storage.  Those are pretty common on older houses (and newer 'green' buildings ironically)


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## oldgrezmonke (Feb 9, 2009)

cozy heat said:
			
		

> First, I'd be extremely careful if you actually intend to enter the space.  There are gasses that are odorless, colorless, etc and heavier than air...methane, CO2, etc.  You could go in, pass out and never come back up.  Worst part is if someone comes to your rescue, they could suffer the same fate.  Probably not a bad idea to have someone standing by and instruct them not to come in after you but to get additional help.  Anyway...
> 
> I don't think you'd actually be able to crawl into a propane tank.  Those are pressure vessels so there isn't likely to be a hatch that a man could get through.  Propane tank would also have hemispherical ends - again due to the pressure, while any type of septic tank or other storage tank, I suspect,  would have simple flat ends.  It could also be an old cistern...possibly with ties to the house gutters for fresh water storage.  Those are pretty common on older houses (and newer 'green' buildings ironically)



I have no intent to enter the space as I am aware of the asphyxiation risk-just open the lid , wait a few moments for any noxious gases to dissipate , take a deep breath , then peep in to get an idea . If it should be a buried propane tank , there would be valves and plumbing inside . This thing is too far from the house to be a cistern .


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## oldgrezmonke (Feb 9, 2009)

Deffy said:
			
		

> beg borrow or steal a camcorder. or you might already have one! duct tape a good flashlight to it. throw a pebble down there and listen for water. if no water, lower the cam in on a rope. (set it to record first.)
> 
> you'd be surprise how many times i've explored stuff that way. i even checked out a tunnel with a wireless cam on an remote controlled toy truck.


I do not have access to a camcorder . Perhaps I could borrow my son's cellphone which has a camera . Drop a rock or two first to see if it goes "plop" or "clink" is a good idea , too . I could do either or both of those without my face over the opening .


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## kenny chaos (Feb 9, 2009)

Ask the owner?  We have disclosure laws in NY.

I agree with Woodford.  Probably just a pile of bones down there.  I'd lock it, especially at night! :ahhh:


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## oldgrezmonke (Feb 9, 2009)

kenny chaos said:
			
		

> Ask the owner?  We have disclosure laws in NY.


The owner is deceased .


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## kenny chaos (Feb 9, 2009)

Well you sure got me curious.  Any vent pipes could have been knocked over, rusted out, or who knows what.  Maybe it was the old guys money vault!  Maybe an escape tunnel from the hospital or jail next door.  A mine would be cool to.
I'd be in there in a heart beat!
My guess, a well.
good luck on your property search-ken


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## sleepie (Feb 9, 2009)

if the rock come back out ----RUN!


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## Jay H (Feb 9, 2009)

sleepie said:
			
		

> if the rock come back out ----RUN!



If it is a bomb shelter, you might hit somebody on the head. owwwwwwwww

Jay


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## oldgrezmonke (Feb 9, 2009)

kenny chaos said:
			
		

> Well you sure got me curious.  Any vent pipes could have been knocked over, rusted out, or who knows what.  Maybe it was the old guys money vault!  Maybe an escape tunnel from the hospital or jail next door.  A mine would be cool to.
> I'd be in there in a heart beat!
> My guess, a well.
> good luck on your property search-ken


Nearest hospital 35 miles , nearest jail 25 miles , little or no mining in this area . There are two visible wells-one with an old above ground pump in a well house and the other is a very old dug well , complete with rope , pulley and bucket , accessible from an enclosed porch . If it was a vault there must not be anything in it as it is held closed with a very old tire and a rock . Maybe I should look for holes in the ground that could be vent pipes . Or maybe I'll find Jimmy Hoffa .
And if the rock comes back out-I will be the NEW world's fastest man .


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## Jay H (Feb 9, 2009)

> Or maybe I’ll find Jimmy Hoffa .



Nah, he's still buried under Giant Statium in NJ...

Jay


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## DAKSY (Feb 9, 2009)

Take a look at a town or county tax map, or the property survey. 
Whatever that feature is, it oughta be on there...


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## Highbeam (Feb 9, 2009)

If a good flashlight cant' see the bottom then it is a well. If it has valves it is gas. If you can see the bottom and it has no smell then it is likely a cistern, if the tank stinks then it could be an abandoned septic tank. Very unlikely to be any sort of structure intended for human entry like shelter. 

Any tank can be safely abandoned with a truck of sand or smashed in and backfilled. So while it is fun to guess the tank, it doesn't matter. That is, unless it smells of petroleum.


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## oldgrezmonke (Feb 9, 2009)

DAKSY said:
			
		

> Take a look at a town or county tax map, or the property survey.
> Whatever that feature is, it oughta be on there...


Records like that are skimpy around here , especially on old properties .


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## jdemaris (Feb 9, 2009)

oldgrezmonke said:
			
		

> We are looking at an 60-70 year old rural house that we might buy . Out in the back yard is a good sized metal tube [@18-24" dia.] sticking straight up about a foot with a slightly rusted through lid that is equipped to be padlocked ..



Very common in my area of New York.  It can be an old cess pool that got a new cement cover with access door installed, or a later septic tank with the same sort of access door.   Top is usually buried a foot or so below ground - so you have to stick an extension of some sort that comes  above ground. This way, if the tank needs to be pumped mid winter, you can get to the access door without digging through frozen ground.  Just helps a guy set one up last month with an old cess pool that was originally covered with rail-road ties.   I installed a HD concrete lid with 24" access door with two feet of culvert pipe to come out of the ground. Homemade extensions can be anything and old culvert pipe stuck on end is popluar.  New septic tanks can be bought with factory made extensions.


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## oldgrezmonke (Feb 9, 2009)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> Any tank can be safely abandoned with a truck of sand or smashed in and backfilled. So while it is fun to guess the tank, it doesn't matter. That is, unless it smells of petroleum.


The sand idea might be useful since I'm worried about it collapsing sometime in the future . I never thought of a fuel tank , could be as this was part of a farm once . I guess I really need to get that real estate agent to see what he can find out . If that thing is too much of a headache I either might forget this place or really lowball the offering price .


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## billb3 (Feb 9, 2009)

Could be a (semi-) artesian well. Room for a pump head.
My well is 10 fet deep bt 10 feet by 10 feet wide. Room for a hundred gallontank and pump. 

Could be a lift pump for sewer, too if the sewer is above you up the street.

Should be  a plot plan record if the property has been sold recently.


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## kenny chaos (Feb 9, 2009)

If it is a fuel tank, you could spend zillions and have to deal with the EPA.  Dunno.


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## Jags (Feb 9, 2009)

kenny chaos said:
			
		

> If it is a fuel tank, you could spend zillions and have to deal with the EPA.  Dunno.



Ken - get it right....its Ka-zillions.


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## semipro (Feb 10, 2009)

kenny chaos said:
			
		

> If it is a fuel tank, you could spend zillions and have to deal with the EPA. Dunno.



Many states have funds to help pay for this sort of thing. In VA, the cost to the landowner is limited to a max of $500 and most pay nothing. I worked in the environmental field for 10 years and ran across these sorts of things all the times during Environmental Site Assessments. 

Curious that its locked. That would imply its valuable or possibly dangerous to me. I'd guess its a cistern, well, shelter, or some such. Seems too big for a propane tank access. 

Hurry up and bust that thing open, I'm dying to know what it is!


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## oldgrezmonke (Feb 10, 2009)

I have contacted the real estate agent to see if he can contact close relatives who might have knowledge of the place or find some record that includes this thing . Of course , I had already asked what it might be and the agent had no idea . I do not want to simply yank it open . I want to be sure of due care before opening the object , with a witness , that I had no intent of damaging anything that was not already damaged . I will let you all know what I find out .


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## Jackpine Savage (Feb 10, 2009)

A well driller shared this tip with me. Rather than a flashlight, use a small mirror to reflect sunlight down the hole. You will be amazed at how well you can see, ha.


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## jdemaris (Feb 10, 2009)

oldgrezmonke said:
			
		

> I have contacted the real estate agent to see if he can contact close relatives who might have knowledge of the place or find some record that includes this thing . Of course , I had already asked what it might be and the agent had no idea . I do not want to simply yank it open .



Why not? That's how you find out what's inside.

Sounds like much to do about nothing to me.   I find all kinds of odd things in rural homes.   If I was interested in buying, I'd get permission from the actual owner of the property to pop the lid off, even if you have to take some bolt cutters to the padlock. I've had to do this many times, especially with foreclosures.  Then, simply look down the hole and see what's going on.  If you're worried about fumes, hold your breath.  The reality is, if the house has sat vacant for a few years, it probably won't be bad at all.  If it is an old cesspoll, the walls will be fabricated, i.e. built by hand.  Often made with cement blocks stacked with gaps inbetween or rocks stacked in a circle.  Cesspool usualy can't be square because it can cave in from ground pressure on the sides.   If a septic tank, it can be anything.  Some early ones were just 300 gallon steel cans, whereas later ones were cement or  plastic.

If it's some sort of water source, it will be clean inside unless there's been a cave in. I'm not sure where the idea of "atresian well" comes into play here.  An artesian well sends water above ground level under some sort of pressure.  If it doesn't, it's not artesian.  Might just be an old dug well though.  Many old homes have dug wells along with later added drilled wells.


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## Highbeam (Feb 10, 2009)

I agree with jdemaris. I was trying to convey the same thought that unless it is a petroleum tank, it is no big deal. Either leave it alone, fill it with sand, or smash it in with a backhoe and backfill with soil. Whether it's poop, water, or a bomb shelter, it's cheap to get rid of and no reason at all to pass up a deal. 

I had this happen with an in-ground swimming pool once at a house I wanted to buy. The seller was way worried that the pool was a deal breaker since it needed some work. To me, the pool was 500 bucks worth of pit run to fill it and some backhoe time to break the upper 3 feet into the hole. I did use the seller's fear to my advantage when dealing.


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## granpajohn (Feb 10, 2009)

jdemaris said:
			
		

> artesian well sends water above ground level under some sort of pressure.  If it doesn't, it's not artesian.


Artesian means it's under some pressure which will bring it up in the hole. If it is enough to bring it to grade, it is "flowing artesian". A desireable well...keep it for future irrigation or other uses.
Someone asked us about some similar unknown item at a house he was rebuilding. By that time, however, he had already directed a truckload of stone into it for abandonement. No harm really, but might've been nice to keep.
Good luck!


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## oldgrezmonke (Feb 10, 2009)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> I agree with jdemaris. I was trying to convey the same thought that unless it is a petroleum tank, it is no big deal. Either leave it alone, fill it with sand, or smash it in with a backhoe and backfill with soil. Whether it's poop, water, or a bomb shelter, it's cheap to get rid of and no reason at all to pass up a deal.
> 
> I had this happen with an in-ground swimming pool once at a house I wanted to buy. The seller was way worried that the pool was a deal breaker since it needed some work. To me, the pool was 500 bucks worth of pit run to fill it and some backhoe time to break the upper 3 feet into the hole. I did use the seller's fear to my advantage when dealing.



Just trying to get an idea with what I might be dealing [and how much I might get off the price] . I haven't dealt with buying many houses  and never one this old so I wanted to tap into other's experiences .


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## semipro (Feb 10, 2009)

Semipro said:
			
		

> kenny chaos said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



After checking the NY Dept. Envir. Conservation webside I found no mention of a clean-up fund there so you're right to be concerned about old fuel tanks.


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## jdemaris (Feb 11, 2009)

granpajohn said:
			
		

> Artesian means it's under some pressure which will bring it up in the hole. If it is enough to bring it to grade, it is "flowing artesian". A desireable well...keep it for future irrigation or other uses.



To say "flowing artesian" is redundant.  "Artesian" by the correct use means "flowing."

That sort of word useage evolved from people using the word wrong.   That's how language changes, gets corrupted  and later sometimes becomes accepted by continual use.

From my old well drillers handbook dictionary:
 French "artésien" is from Artois in France. Of or pertaining to Artois (anciently called Artesium ) Artesian wells are wells made by boring into the earth till the instrument reaches
water, which, from internal pressure, flows spontaneously like a fountain


An "artesian well" by the original and correct meaning is a well that water naturally comes out of due the source being higher than the well itself.   The term was first used by Cartusian monks in France in the 1100s.  They drilled wells and for those that water sprung out of on its own, they called them artois wells.  The term used here in the north American  i.e. "artesian well" is taken from Artois, France.

The definition of a "dead language" is a language that no longer changes.  Obviously, English still changes a  lot, and often when words get used wrong frequently and/or long enough, they get accepted.  Subsequently, I don't know who is saying what in other regions of the USA, Canada, or whereever.

I've worked with well drillers over many years, and for us here in northeast - "artesian well" means only one thing and that is the original meaning.  Anything else would be confusing.   I live in an area where there are dug wells all over the place.  Dig a hole 30 feet into the ground, and it fills with water.   If the head of the water is below ground level, it is NOT artesian.  If it overflows, it is.   If you have water coming out of the ground naturally, we call it a spring.  

If you were trying to sell a home in my area and claimed it had an artesian well, and it all it really had was a well with water in it, below ground level, you'd be likely to be accused of false representation.  Seen it happen a few times - but that becase it was a part-time artesian that ran in spring and stopped in mid-summer.


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## jdemaris (Feb 11, 2009)

oldgrezmonke said:
			
		

> Just trying to get an idea with what I might be dealing [and how much I might get off the price] . I haven't dealt with buying many houses  and never one this old so I wanted to tap into other's experiences .



Pop the lid open and look inside, it's a simple as that.  

If you're truly intestested in buying an old house or farmstead, the last thing you want to do is starting calling government agencies.   Once they get involved, you've totally screwed things up, just as they will. That goes for possible below ground fuel tanks, septic systems, etc.

Take a flashlight and look down the hole.   Not very complicated. If the seller won't let you, walk away.   If you DO see an empty liquid fuel tank of some sort, then you DO have some concerns. Once a government agency gets invovled, they'll probably demand soil and well water samples be taken. If any evidence of contamination in the soil and/or water, then a clean up will probably be ordered along with a search of prior owners and who might be made to pay.  At that point, it's not worth buying.

I've bought such properties in the past, and if prior spills were  small, I learned a long time ago to simply keep my mouth shut.   Some slight signs of pollutions don't hurt a thing, and some have polluted water wells all over the place.  Keep in mind that in many rural areas, oil was thrown on the dirt roads every summer for many years.  Same with salt, often used more in the summer than the winter.   Many water wells now are salt-polluted.  

You just have to look at things - whether its opening a closet door in the house - or popping the lid off an pipe sticking out of the ground - no big deal either way.  Then, you have to make a choice of price versus risk and future repairs.


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## Tarmsolo60 (Feb 11, 2009)

http://www.purdue.edu/envirosoft/groundwater/src/artesian.htm

http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/gwartesian.html



I think the OP lid the backyard is an old well.


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## jdemaris (Feb 11, 2009)

Here are two wells I have, one is a dug well where water comes to ground level in the spring and 20' down in mid summer.  The well used to be in my backyard with a little well house sticking above ground. I dug around it, built a two-story addition to the house around it, and the well is now inside the house. 

The other well with the pitcher pump is one I drilled 225 deep at my Adirondack mountain cabin.  It would up being a real Artesian well and runs out of the ground, all the time. In fact, I've run a pipe 20 feet in the air and it still runs.  Note my dog enjoying the self-service water supply.   We use a hand pump plus a spigot to fill buckets with no pump needed.  Hand pump just makes getting a  lot of water faster.


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## Ugly (Feb 11, 2009)

That's slicker than snot on a doorknob.

Very nice, I'm green with envy. I live on the bedrock of mother earth (Canadian Shiield). Everything that won't dry up is drilled but on the other hand surface contamination is virtually impossible due to the nature of the beast (zero recorded cases).


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## Highbeam (Feb 11, 2009)

Same here JD. It is not artesian unless it actually flows up to and above ground level. About every well I've ever been associated with comes up in the hole a little bit or a lot after you hit the water. Like the well is drilled 150 feet deep before hitting water and then the water level comes up to 20 feet below the hole after awhile. That doesn't make all of those wells artesian.

A well in your house!


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## sinnian (Feb 12, 2009)

You're in TN, probably part of a distillery!


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## oldgrezmonke (Feb 12, 2009)

sinnian said:
			
		

> You're in TN, probably part of a distillery!



Oh No !  A Still ! If I buy the place , that means trouble with revenooers !


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