# Neighbor's fireplace is cooking my wall -- how hot is too hot?



## armandttt (Dec 27, 2010)

Howdy folks,

I'd very much appreciate your collective wisdom on issues we are having with our neighbor's fireplace.  We live in an attached row house dating to the 1890s, and my next-door neighbor has a fireplace that backs to our shared party wall.  Even after some re-bricking and insulation work, his fireplace is causing surface temperatures of >260 degrees on our side of the wall, which has us concerned both for safety and wall damage reasons.

My question to the group is whether such temperatures are normal, and whether we can safely install wallboard over such a hot surface.

This is our first winter in the house, which we bought over the summer.  At that time, we repainted the walls, fixing what appeared to be water damage on one of them -- the wall was bowed and cracked in one place.  Once it started getting cold out, the bowing and cracking started again, and I soon determined that the "water damage" was actually heat damage caused by the neighbor's fireplace (since the wall was hot to touch).

It turns out that my neighbor had his fireplace redone last season by a local contractor.  I called them over, and we began investigating the problem.  After cutting into my wallboard, it became apparent that the neighbor's fireplace had fully breached our party wall, and was actually resting adjacent to the plaster on our side.  Below you can see the concrete back of his fireplace, where we had thought a course of bricks (i.e., my portion of the party wall) should be.







After much back-and-forth, we agreed upon a solution whereby they would replace the back of his fireplace with a single course of firebrick, install some fireproof insulation on our side of the party wall, and then cover it over with wallboard.  Notwithstanding my concern that this provided only about 4" of insulation (whereas the code seemed to require 8" of masonry), I agreed to this proposed fix when my own inspector OK'd the plan.  Below you can see the wall on my side after the re-bricking, as well as the installation of the insulation, which was adhered to my wall with SmokTite.









However, two days later -- before we had even installed our wallboard -- the wall started getting hot again.  I put my digital meat thermometer against the wall, and the temperature readings started rising quickly, eventually settling at 267 degrees, as you can see below.  My neighbor adamantly maintains that this is normal.  My intuition tells me otherwise.  What do you guys think?






Thanks in advance for any and all advice!


----------



## Jags (Dec 27, 2010)

I'm thinking that you need to get a pro involved.  That is too hot.  Call up your local building code folks and bring them in for a look-see.

I would encourage your neighbor to stop burning until this was investigated.  Definitely DO NOT put any combustibles against this wall until it has been inspected.


----------



## Wood Heat Stoves (Dec 27, 2010)

sounds like they were trying to give you some free heat, lol


----------



## cmonSTART (Dec 27, 2010)

Generally code requires 4 inches (if I remember correctly) of airspace between the back masonry and a combustible.  Your local code AHJ will have more info on their exact requirement, but I suggest you get someone else involved.  That's way too hot.


----------



## Backwoods Savage (Dec 28, 2010)

Welcome to the forum Max Power. I hope you are around to read this post

I would definitely insist on him not burning until this is fixed right. Call whoever is the inspector in your area. Call the fire department. Do whatever is necessary to get this right before you both lose your homes.


----------



## Hanko (Dec 28, 2010)

Wood Heat Stoves said:
			
		

> sounds like they were trying to give you some free heat, lol



kinda what I thought, and hes bitchin about it. put a fan on it circulate it around the house. Make sure your insurance is paid up too


----------



## armandttt (Dec 28, 2010)

Thanks to all.  Your advice is well-taken.


----------



## madison (Dec 28, 2010)

Take your picture of the thermometer against the wall to your local town building inspector, and see what he has to say.  If it were me I sure would be curious to hear their response.


----------



## gpcollen1 (Dec 28, 2010)

I would let him know that you are going to talk to a pro - keep him involved.  It is an issue that you both need to rectify...for both of your safety.


----------



## yooperdave (Dec 28, 2010)

sorry you have a neighbor that not only disregards safety (his AND yours) but also appears to have no respect for what could be construed as "your space" since he had the fireplace built to the rear of your wallboard.  what type of contractor would do that and think they would still be considered as reputable???  probably only concerned about hurrying up and getting it done and hopefully the neighbor (you) will never be the wiser and find out what they had done.  this article may help you and let us know how this turns out, will ya?    

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/stove_wall_clear


----------



## Bone1099 (Dec 28, 2010)

How bout having a masonry mock fireplace built with no combustibles between your brick and his and enjoy the free heat and nice feel of your neighbor warming your home at his expense.  seems that a small brick area on that wall could satisfy the code and the safety concerns without a najor expense.  I also concurr with having this inspected by a professional.
Just a thought


----------



## littlesmokey (Dec 28, 2010)

Call the building inspectors and the folks who gave you title insurance. Sounds to me like he's breached the imaginary line that divides your property and his, plus he has created a very hazardous condition that affects your occupancy and third, he's breached a fire barrier, the "solid wall" between your homes. Neighbor might be a nice guy, but you have some serious issues. Safe operation of the stove should mean no pass through heat and safe operation. The city should redline/red-tag the fireplace until you are satisfied.

The title insurance and your homeowners insurance folk will be your back-stop. I would make this a priority for your safety and peace of mind.

Just an aside, I almost ended up in court with a neighbor in a commercial building who decided to cut an archway through a fire wall, between two older buildings. He pissed the fire marshall off so bad with his attitude they pulled his business license and shut him down. His landlord (yep, he was renting!) was my landlord also, cost him thousands to correct, before he almost lost his insurance. You are the vulnerable party.

Oh, BTW, now that I have freaked you out, welcome to the forum, we aim to serve.


----------



## DanCorcoran (Dec 28, 2010)

Just because the contractor should have known better, doesn't mean that the homeowner was complicit.  If I hire a professional to do work, I expect them to know more than I do.  Granted, if it sounded really stupid I'd question it, but in this case, there's no reason the homeowner would or should know proper clearances.

P.S.  Just to clarify, I agree completely that your side of the wall shouldn't be that hot and that it is the neighbor's responsibility to make it right.  He/she hired the contractor, so getting the contractor to make it right is between your neighbor and the contractor...not your problem.


----------



## tickbitty (Dec 28, 2010)

Sounds like maybe they were trying to regain a fireplace out of one of those little victorian coal-burning ones perhaps by getting depth out of your wall!  Yikes, doesn't sound cool to me.  I feel bad for your neighbors as well but surely they should understand that this isn't you being a jerk, it just ain't right that their contractor did that and somebody's going to have to make it right.  250 is damn hot for the other side of the wall... I have an interior chimney and I can tell you surely that you can NOT feel any appreciable heat on the wall opposite the firebox!  Hope you didn't sign anything saying it was OK... although even if you did I would think you still have a case.  Hope the neighbor is reasonable about this.


----------



## JustWood (Dec 28, 2010)

Bone1099 said:
			
		

> How bout having a masonry mock fireplace built with no combustibles between your brick and his and enjoy the free heat and nice feel of your neighbor warming your home at his expense.  seems that a small brick area on that wall could satisfy the code and the safety concerns without a najor expense.  I also concurr with having this inspected by a professional.
> Just a thought



Ja, I'd be doin' something to take advantage  of 260F.


----------



## fishingpol (Dec 28, 2010)

Cover yourself by getting the building inspector and a professional involved.  If work was done that could jeopardized life and property safety, it should be done by permit and by a professional.  I am sure you want to keep in good terms with your neighbor, but if you agree to any work done, you may be "party to" and "on notice" to any possble insurance issue down the road if something goes south.  I would encourage the work to be done by building codes with any combustible issues resolved along the way.  It sounds like they opened the can of worms, they need to get the lid back on the can.  

If there are multiple units attached to one another the liability for greater damage could increase.  Take pics, document and CYA!  Hopefully all will work out.  Welcome to the forums, there is a lot of great advice here.


----------



## sandie (Dec 29, 2010)

Fishingpol   You said it all for me, could not add much so won't but that legally you are culpable if you help pay or contract with someone to fix the problem.  YOUR Neighbor needs to be the person to contract someone to fix the problem.  The building inspector and fire chief are good resources for you.
Fishingpol-  grew up on Northshore of MA in Swampscott


----------



## fishingpol (Dec 29, 2010)

Sandie, right about that.  If something does happen the ins companies and attorneys will start to look at who can contribute to a claim(no offense of course to either). I'm in Haverhill on the border to NH.


----------



## elmoleaf (Dec 29, 2010)

_An adjoining owner is not entitled to extend the front wall or rear wall of his building beyond the center of the party wall. In addition, an adjoining owner cannot extend the beams of her building beyond the center of the wall. 
...
A party wall can be used by the adjoining owners for the construction and maintenance of chimney flues and fireplaces. Both parties are entitled to use a flue built into the middle of the wall, although the lower part of it is located wholly in the other owner's half of the wall._

from http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Party+wall

Also, consider this image from Jan-Feb 2003 Old House Journal, which illustrates how floor framing was often let into a party wall. If it is adjacent to the flue, it could be in as much danger as the wall behind the neighbor's fireplace.
Get a professional on site ASAP.....probably your local building inspector.


----------



## littlesmokey (Dec 29, 2010)

Just for giggles, contact the insurance company that issued your title insurance. They are charged with insuring that the property is free and clear and in conditions to occupy. They may be willing to spring the bucks for a structural engineer to do a full inspection. If they won't see if your homeowner insurance may help you. Bottom line for me is you should be made whole at no expense. Your nice guy neighbor, whether consciously or negligently has endangered your home and your ability to enjoy it. 

Be nice, but seriously impress upon him he will be held responsible for any problems. The section of the wall behind his fireplace should be no hotter than behind his refer. The heat says there is a problem, he has to correct it. The last irresponsible thing he should be doing is making a fire in the box.


----------



## armandttt (Dec 29, 2010)

Many thanks for all of the continued replies and links to additional resources.  Your expertise is very helpful as I navigate a tricky situation.  I agree that my neighbor might not be at fault for problems caused by his contractor.  However, he is making things difficult by maintaining that the contractor did nothing wrong, that the modern code requirements do not apply to such an old fireplace (even though it was redone recently), that the >260-degree temperatures do not pose a problem, and that there is no need for him to refrain from having fires at this point.

I have sent the information (and photos) to our local authorities, and requested a formal inspection.  I also will contact our title insurance folks too inquire about a structural inspection and any trespassing issues stemming from the breach of our party wall. 

These houses were, indeed, built with small Victorian fireboxes that appear to be designed for coal.  Although I would love to take advantage of the free heat, building a masonry mock fireplace is not practicable given the location in a narrow hallway.


----------



## Jags (Dec 29, 2010)

Max Power said:
			
		

> I have sent the information (and photos) to our local authorities, and requested a formal inspection.  I also will contact our title insurance folks too inquire about a structural inspection and any trespassing issues stemming from the breach of our party wall.



Good call.  Safety first.


----------

