# What chunk of your total utilities is heating and Domestic Hot Water?



## Poindexter (Mar 31, 2022)

Just asking.  I was about to derail an otherwise well run thread....

I did a preliminary looksee at my utility usage last month, there was a team of undergrads here from USC poking around.  I used roughly 300 million BTUs last year in 2400 sqft, and something like  6/7 to 7/8 of that, 85-87% was for heat.  The other 13-15% was for refrigeration, internet, lighting, audio, TV, head bolt heaters on the vehicles and etcetera (phone charging).  Domestic Hot Water is a problem to categorize as my oil fired boiler has a loop in it to heat DHW, so my DHW is in with heating the house.  I did include electrical consumption in the total.  2021/2022 was a relatively cold hard winter, but it wasn't an epic/ record breaking notable winter.

Anecdotally one of the undergrads asked if I thought the government could solve my problems for me.  I LOL'd and literally ROFL'd, but I did do the prelim looksee as above between the time he called from LA and the day he showed up in Fairbanks.

Including domestic hot water, what percentage of your energy consumption goes to heat?  Just asking, it is the named elephant in the room up here.

I shall tap the tab for "poll" and see what happens.


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## Poindexter (Mar 31, 2022)

I seem to have the desirable poll questions in this thread.  Mods please delete the screwed up other version thank you.


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## Bobbob (Mar 31, 2022)

My vote is based on $.08 per kilowatt and 80% heating covered by woodstove. Other 20% covered by heat pump.


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## Bobbob (Mar 31, 2022)

Bobbob said:


> My vote is based on $.08 per kilowatt and 80% heating covered by woodstove. Other 20% covered by heat pump. Hot water is 50 gal electric.


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## snobuilder (Mar 31, 2022)

I'd have to ask my wife .

Not sure if the poll is right for me for. 

I can say that with coming up on 4 cords of wood heat usage, We have saved in the neighborhood of $1500 in Nat gas cost.

Having said this out loud I am now questioning why I waste my time and hard work making 4 cords a wood. The payback, at least for now is chit.

But I guess the lack of wear and tear on my old furnace is worth something as well.


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## stoveliker (Mar 31, 2022)

The question in the title is not well posed.

In dollars, hot water is 100 pct of my costs because wood and solar panels leave me zero cost for heat and electricity.

The question in the poll is about bill (dollars).Your description of your own situation is in BTUs. 

I use about 38 million of oil BTUs for hot water. I used about two cords of mixed wood, at a roughly estimated average 23 million BTUs per cord,i.e. 46 million BTUs for heat.
Then I have my minisplit which I use when it's 40 F or higher for 24 hrs or more (running on solar electrons). I use about 5.8 MWh per year total, equating to 16 kWh per day. Before I had my minisplit I used 10.5 kWh per day, suggesting 5.5 kWh per day for (minisplit heat+AC) average. Suppose half for heat half for AC. Then still the varying COP makes this unknown.

Multiple sources make it hard to estimate heating usage..


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## snobuilder (Mar 31, 2022)

Solar is free?🤣


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## stoveliker (Mar 31, 2022)

I've hit break even for my wallet indeed. Thanks in part to your generous donation to my IRS tax credit.

On a different note:
How much natural gas do you use? (I don't know how much 1500 gets you).


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## icestationzebra (Mar 31, 2022)

Electric:  I pay almost nothing, just monthly connection fees.. I have solar and net-metering.  My offset is almost 100%.  

Wood:  5 cords at $200 each.  I would rather not give up my weekends making wood and just buy it at this point in my life.

Oil:  I go thru 750-1000 gallons per year.  My oil furnace is also my hot water heater so it is running year round.  This year really hurt as oil is up 75% YoY....my last delivery was $5.16/g.   When my 25 yr old furnace finally sh!ts the bed I will look at other options.


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## xman23 (Mar 31, 2022)

I should know,...... but have no idea. I have one gas and one electric hot water. Any one have suggestions how we could measure the consumption and cost of each of my heaters?


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## peakbagger (Mar 31, 2022)

I will screw up the poll. My hot water is completely free for 8 months a year from a Solar Hot Water system. The circulator pump is DC run off an ancient solar panel and a diff temp switch. When the wood boiler is running, I use Aquatrol hot water maker tank to dump heat off my boiler when the storage hits max temp. All the electricity is "free" with my net metered solar arrays and wood is sweat equity since I am cutting it for timber stand improvement or site clearing so its sweat equity.


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## Ashful (Mar 31, 2022)

What counts into annual utility bill?  Just heating?  Heating and cooling?  Lighting?  Fios?

I know the numerator, but the denominator is up for debate.


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## begreen (Mar 31, 2022)

Not following the question. Which utility? With or without wood cost?


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## Poindexter (Mar 31, 2022)

I am honestly still not sure of the question myself.  Is internet access a utility, the data utility?  Is Amazon Prime a utility, the shipping utility?  What about Netflix, the entertainment utility?

To include those the calculation for heat as a percent would have to be in dollars, and I would still be over 75% with internet, Prime and Netflix added on to the dollars.

What I was asked to look at by the undergrad from USC is how much of my utility usage is for heating.  He didn't specify BTUs versus $.


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## brenndatomu (Mar 31, 2022)

Poindexter said:


> I am honestly still not sure of the question myself. Is internet access a utility, the data utility? Is Amazon Prime a utility, the shipping utility? What about Netflix, the entertainment utility?


Heck no...water, sewer, electric, gas (or whatever fuel you use) maybe phone/internet connection...Amazon P and Netflix is _not_ a utility IMO.
And even your internet service would probably depend on what you use it for...as to how you classify it.


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## JRHAWK9 (Mar 31, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> I can say that with coming up on 4 cords of wood heat usage, We have saved in the neighborhood of $1500 in Nat gas cost.






stoveliker said:


> On a different note:
> How much natural gas do you use? (I don't know how much 1500 gets you).



I think you and I may be barking up the same tree here.  I want to know too.


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## Ashful (Mar 31, 2022)

brenndatomu said:


> … IMO.


Opinions vary.  You have a good argument, but I think we need to define the question a bit better, in order for this poll to generate more useful data.


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## EatenByLimestone (Mar 31, 2022)

Probably 1/3 of my energy bill.    Boiler/water heater, stove, dryer, and range are all natural gas.


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## gthomas785 (Mar 31, 2022)

I would think for the purpose of the question then the energy sources (electric, gas, oil, wood) are the relevant utilities.

Phone, water, and internet are usually thought of as utilities but they are irrelevant for calculating the percentage of energy used for heating, which is what I assume the question is getting at.


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## snobuilder (Mar 31, 2022)

JRHAWK9 said:


> I think you and I may be barking up the same tree here.  I want to know too.


 Nat gas is a cheap commodity unless some politician thinks he gets votes by pleasing some group that wants to limit the general publics access to it. Do you understand my point?


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## stoveliker (Mar 31, 2022)

You are misunderstanding. How many gallons or pounds do you use (pay for with that $1500)?


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## snobuilder (Mar 31, 2022)

Do we need to figure in the cost of the fossil fuel needed to melt sand into  a usable silicon solar array, or no? how about lithium mines and the recycling or disposal of batteries once used up? just touching on the realty of being green.

i'm so inspired that my tax dollars helped some of youse virtue signalers realize and fulfill your dreams of being green energy heroes.🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 <<<<< one for me, my wife, my 4 kids and my 9 grand kids....lol... as we will surely be paying for it in tax dollars til the day we die.


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## brenndatomu (Mar 31, 2022)

OK, it's official, I have no idea what this thread is supposed to be about


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## bholler (Mar 31, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> Do we need to figure in the cost of the fossil fuel needed to melt sand into  a usable silicon solar array, or no? how about lithium mines and the recycling or disposal of batteries once used up? just touching on the realty of being green.
> 
> i'm so inspired that my tax dollars helped some of youse virtue signalers realize and fulfill your dreams of being green energy heroes.


Not when we are discussing end cost to the user.

That part is really simple you know what you paid.  You know what you are saving.  Once the savings meet the cost you are past the payoff period.

As far as tax dollars I would much rather have my money go towards developing and furthering alternative energies than subsidizing oil companies who are already making huge profits.  And yes we spend more doing that than subsidizing solar


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## stoveliker (Mar 31, 2022)

Ok. I'm sorry I asked.


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## snobuilder (Mar 31, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> You are misunderstanding. How many gallons or pounds do you use (pay for with that $1500)?


 At $300 per heating month I'd be over exagerating.


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## stoveliker (Mar 31, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> At $300 per heating month I'd be over exagerating.



How many therms of nat gas I mean (as that's the going unit for selling nat gas) do you get for that $1500?


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## JRHAWK9 (Mar 31, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> Nat gas is a cheap commodity unless some politician thinks he gets votes by pleasing some group that wants to limit the general publics access to it. Do you understand my point?





snobuilder said:


> I can say that with coming up on 4 cords of wood heat usage, We have saved in the neighborhood of $1500 in Nat gas cost.



Just doing some real quick math.

Assuming (see links provided below):
Cost of Natural Gas:  $1/therm or 100,000 BTU's (from what I can tell, $1 per therm is on the very high side)
Wood:  ~6,500 BTU's per pound @20% MC
Red Oak:  ~3,570 lbs/cord @20% MC
American Elm:  ~2,975 lbs/cord @20% MC
Silver Maple:  ~2,805 lbs/cord @20% MC
Efficiency of wood stove:  70%
Efficiency of NG furnace:  92%

Now, converting that $1,500 of natural gas into BTU's:  150,000,000 BTU's...or 138,000,000 BTU's supplied to house @ 92% furnace efficiency.
Convert those BTU's into comparable wood usage:  21,231 lbs wood @ 100% wood stove efficiency.
Need ~30,300lb of wood burning in a stove at 70% efficiency to replace 1,500 therms of NG in a 92% efficient furnace.
Convert 30,300 lbs of wood into approximate cords of red oak:   8.5 cord
Convert 30,300 lbs of wood into approximate cords of American Elm:   10.2 cord
Convert 30,300 lbs of wood into approximate cords of Silver Maple:   10.8 cord

Conclusion, either you have not saved nearly as much as you think you have, or you have burned way more than "coming up on 4 cords".  Chances are you are paying less than $1/therm too, which means you would be getting even more NG for your $1,500 and needing even more wood to replace it.

Assumptions came from:



			https://www.mha-net.org/docs/v8n2/docs/WDBASICS.pdf
		













						Sweep's Library - Firewood Heat Value Comparison Charts
					

Firewood heat value chart



					hearth.com
				








__





						Residential Fuel Comparisons | We Energies
					

Typical annual costs of home appliances.




					www.we-energies.com


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## snobuilder (Mar 31, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> Ok. I'm sorry I asked.


 Your solar, wind, heat pump are in now way fossil fuel eliminating. On a good sunny and windy day throughout the USA and in the best possible passive energy producing scenario, the fossil fueled energy plants will still need to be on line and producing power no matter your best efforts at self sufficiency.


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## stoveliker (Mar 31, 2022)

fine, whatever. At least I'm not paying anything for the same that you pay $1500 for. 
I'm done with this.


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## bholler (Mar 31, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> Your solar, wind, heat pump are in now way fossil fuel eliminating. On a good sunny and windy day throughout the USA and in the best possible passive energy producing scenario, the fossil fueled energy plants will still need to be on line and producing power no matter your best efforts at self sufficiency.


At this point absolutely.  But alternative energies are without question reducing demand for power produced with fossil fuels.  Why is that a bad thing?

Regardless this thread is about cost to the consumer.  If you have a large enough solar setup after the payoff period your electricity is free.  It's just that simple


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## snobuilder (Mar 31, 2022)

JRHAWK9 said:


> Just doing some real quick math.
> 
> Assuming (see links provided below):
> Cost of Natural Gas:  $1/therm or 100,000 BTU's (from what I can tell, $1 per therm is on the very high side)
> ...





JRHAWK9 said:


> Just doing some real quick math.
> 
> Assuming (see links provided below):
> Cost of Natural Gas:  $1/therm or 100,000 BTU's (from what I can tell, $1 per therm is on the very high side)





JRHAWK9 said:


> Chances are you are paying less than $1/therm too,


 Back to the  white board Sheldon🤣


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## snobuilder (Mar 31, 2022)

i guess I need to hope for 4 more years to make my hard work worth while.


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## JRHAWK9 (Mar 31, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> Back to the  white board Sheldon🤣
> View attachment 294326



nope....you are at $0.9848/therm + $9.24/billing month facilities charge......pretty darn good guess on my part! 

So what I posted is pretty darn close.


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## snobuilder (Mar 31, 2022)

bholler said:


> At this point absolutely.  But alternative energies are without question reducing demand for power produced with fossil fuels.  Why is that a bad thing?
> 
> Regardless this thread is about cost to the consumer.  If you have a large enough solar setup *after the payoff period *your electricity is free.  It's just that simple


whos payoff period, certainly NOT the taxpayers payoff period...FFS


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## snobuilder (Mar 31, 2022)

JRHAWK9 said:


> nope....you are at $0.9848/therm + $9.24/billing month facilities charge......pretty darn good guess on my part!
> 
> So what I posted is pretty darn close.


 🤣You got me.

Your law degree is suspect....LOL


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## bholler (Mar 31, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> whos payoff period, certainly NOT the taxpayers payoff period...FFS


When is the payoff for all of the tax money handed to fossil fuel companies every year?


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## bholler (Mar 31, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> Your law degree is suspect....LOL


Ok enough of this diversion can we get back on topic please.


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## bholler (Mar 31, 2022)

For me my electric bill is roughly $120 a month.  That heats my water.  No idea what percentage that is.   I burn 10 to 15 gallons of oil on average during the heating months.

And I spend about $300 on propane a year.  That is for the range and occasional use of the gas insert.


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## snobuilder (Mar 31, 2022)

my eyes have been opened. Anyone want my 3 year supply a wood? I'm an idiot to work so hard at it.


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## bholler (Mar 31, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> my eyes have been opened. Anyone want my 3 year supply a wood? I'm an idiot to work so hard at it.


If i had access to natural gas I would absolutely burn less wood.  When either my oil furnace or central air unit craps out I will switch to a heat pump which will cut down on wood useage as well


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## JRHAWK9 (Mar 31, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> my eyes have been opened. Anyone want my 3 year supply a wood? I'm an idiot to work so hard at it.



well, ya.

Although it sounds to me you are disappointed in how cheap natural gas is and really wish it costed more in order to justify burning wood.


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## Bad LP (Mar 31, 2022)

I know to the gallon how much LP was used last delivery cycle for hot water, generator  and cooking combined.


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## Bad LP (Mar 31, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> i guess I need to hope for 4 more years to make my hard work worth while.


You sure about that?


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## JRHAWK9 (Mar 31, 2022)

bholler said:


> For me my electric bill is roughly $120 a month.  That heats my water.  No idea what percentage that is.   I burn 10 to 15 gallons of oil on average during the heating months.
> 
> And I spend about $300 on propane a year.  That is for the range and occasional use of the gas insert.



That's what our electric bill is a month on average.  We don't have an electric clothes drier or water heater though.  We do have an electric range and sleep with a high power fan on every night for white noise.      We also have three desktop computers running pretty much 24/7. 

We use about 150 gallons of LP a year.  The majority of it is used by the water heater and clothes drier.  According to my records of how often the LP furnace runs a heating season, it uses on average about 40 gallons a heating season.  This all depends on how often we are gone during winter.  In late February this year we left for a week.   These were the high and low temps while we were gone.





I had the house thermostat set at 55° and the LP furnace still ran for a total of 3,220 minutes.  Approximately 170 of that was when I remotely bumped the LP thermostat to 68° when were were on our way home.  Ended up costing us over $100 in LP to keep the house 55° over those 8 days.


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## tlc1976 (Apr 1, 2022)

My only recurring utility bill is electric, which I got down to $75 a month or $900 a year. About $40 of that is base fees. I figured about $13 a month to run the pellet stove or about 1/3, but only half the year so overall 1/6. So including a fair 1/6 of the base fees I’d say $150 a year in electric for heat.

Pellets I buy at will when they’re new stock and cheapest. Last 2 years have been $245 a ton with tax and using 3.5 tons a year that’s $858 a year. 100% for heat.

I fill the propane tank every 2 years when it’s cheapest. 2/3 of that is cooking, dryer, and water heater. I barely cook or do laundry so most of it is probably water heater. 1/3 is to keep the boiler on standby during the winter for emergency heat so that counts. Used to be $1.70 a gallon so about $635 ($318), now it’s about $2.70 a gallon so about $1010 ($505). So if I said it was 5/6 heat for 2 years that would be $265 a year previously, or $421 a year now. Wishful thinking it will go down some in August like usual.

Is fiber internet a qualifying utility? If so that’s $60 a month or $720 a year.

Using the lower propane price, counting the internet it’s $2796 total yearly utility. $2076 without. Heat utility portion $1273.

So with internet is 46% heat. Without is 61% heat. Hope I did this right, my brain is ready for the weekend.


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## snobuilder (Apr 1, 2022)

JRHAWK9 said:


> well, ya.
> 
> Although it sounds to me you are disappointed in how cheap natural gas is and really wish it costed more in order to justify burning wood.


 At least I get to pay an extra 3% for some freeloader BTU's as well.


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## Ashful (Apr 1, 2022)

Well, this is about the most entertaining thread I've read in awhile.  I hope we keep it going, and the mod's don't see any need to shut it down.  I'll do my best to post my numbers below, but first:



JRHAWK9 said:


> Conclusion, either you have not saved nearly as much as you think you have, or you have burned way more than "coming up on 4 cords".  Chances are you are paying less than $1/therm too, which means you would be getting even more NG for your $1,500 and needing even more wood to replace it.


You are forgetting that we determined in prior threads, that snobuilder's setup must be running damn near negative efficiency.  It is very possible his prior claims of not saving any money by burning wood are true, given how little fuel he's saving, per cord of wood burned.



bholler said:


> Regardless this thread is about cost to the consumer.  If you have a large enough solar setup after the payoff period your electricity is free.  It's just that simple


I recently looked at this for a family member who was looking at making an investment in solar for their home.  I also had some thoughts of my own about replacing my roof with solar slate tiles, at some point in the future, so I figured this would be a chance to get a good look at the numbers.  I was really surprised to find there was absolutely no way to ever make solar pay for itself.  Best case, if applying tax credits (PA) and NOT accounting for inflation or lost investment income, my family member's proposed system would just break even after 13 years, and never overtake the cost of doing nothing.  Once you figure in simple inflation, spending 2020 dollars to recoup 2030 dollars, it's a losing battle, residential solar will never pay.

In this calculation, I had included the most cost-effective appliance replacements at every step, for every major appliance based on their average end of life dates.  I was so surprised by the result that I forwarded it to @woodgeek, who seems to me to be about the smartest guy I've ever met on these subjects, and he concurred  finding the same result on his own.

As to my numbers, the yearly average over the last several years:

10 cords wood (mostly red oak, white oak, ash)
970 - 1050 (call it ~1020) gallons oil
< 100 gallons LP
19,342 kWh electric (minisplit heat pumps, but also includes lights, dehumidifiers, etc.)

If we apply some assumed efficiencies and distributions:

240M BTU x 80% = 19M BTU from wood
140M BTU x 95% = 133M BTU from oil 
9M BTU x 82% = 7.4M BTU from LP

Unfortunately, digging into the electric usage proved more difficult.  Heat pumps are Mitsubishi minisplits, operating in climate zone 6b, likely reasonably efficient outside of two weeks in January.  I had expected to see clear trends of low usage in May and September, when we need very little heating OR cooling, in order to pick out the differential costs of heat pump heating and cooling in summer and winter, respectively.  But unfortunately, Feb-Apr are my lowest electric kWh months, which really makes no sense to me.


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## stoveliker (Apr 1, 2022)

My solar does financially make sense. Because I only paid 45% of its cost due to tax credits (Fed and State) back in '18.

Tax credits are going down, and break even time is going up therefore.

Even then 13 years to break even may not sound nice, but another 13 years after that with no electricity cost (at net metering, another necessity), does make it make sense.


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## Ashful (Apr 1, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> At least I get to pay an extra 3% for some freeloader BTU's as well.


You're always welcome to move to a place where taxes are lower.  Last I checked, Bermuda and United Aram Emirates have zero income tax.

What I pay in taxes is obscene, your head would likely spin off, if you only knew.  But to bastardize an old Churchill quote, "ours is the worst system on earth, except all the others."  He was talking about democracy, but it finds application nearly anywhere you look, including our tax codes.  When I travel, and look at the trade-offs others face, versus what we have in this country, I feel less bad about what we're paying.


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## Ashful (Apr 1, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> My solar does financially make sense. Because I only paid 45% of its cost due to tax credits (Fed and State) back in '18.
> 
> Tax credits are going down, and break even time is going up therefore.
> 
> Even then 13 years to break even may not sound nice, but another 13 years after that with no electricity cost (at net metering, another necessity), does make it make sense.


Did you figure inflation into that?  What about the earning potential of the 55% you put down on the system, if invested in an index fund?  You could've bought Exxon!!


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## snobuilder (Apr 1, 2022)

Ashful said:


> You're always welcome to move to a place where taxes are lower. Last I checked, Bermuda and United Aram Emirates have zero income tax. What I pay in taxes is obscene, your head would likely spin off, if you only knew. But to bastardize an old Churchill quote, "ours is the worst system on earth, except all the others." He was talking about democracy, but it finds application nearly anywhere you look, including our tax codes. When I travel, and look at the trade-offs others face, versus what we have in this country, I feel less bad about what we're paying.





stoveliker said:


> My solar does financially make sense. Because I only paid 45% of its cost due to *tax credits* (Fed and State) back in '18.
> 
> Tax credits are going down, and break even time is going up therefore.
> 
> Even then 13 years to break even may not sound nice, but another 13 years after that with no electricity cost (at net metering, another necessity), does make it make sense.


Welfare.


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## snobuilder (Apr 1, 2022)

Ashful said:


> You're always welcome to move to a place where taxes are lower.  Last I checked, Bermuda and United Aram Emirates have zero income tax.
> 
> What I pay in taxes is obscene, your head would likely spin off, if you only knew.  But to bastardize an old Churchill quote, "ours is the worst system on earth, except all the others."  He was talking about democracy, but it finds application nearly anywhere you look, including our tax codes.  When I travel, and look at the trade-offs others face, versus what we have in this country, I feel less bad about what we're paying.


  That 3% is what they add to my bill to pay for the freeloaders of society. If you enjoy the feeling you get from supporting ppl who can but refuse to work for there  daily needs then you are in luck ....we are about to see it increase tenfold .


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## snobuilder (Apr 1, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> *My solar* does financially make sense. Because I only paid 45% of its cost due to tax credits (Fed and State) back in '18.
> 
> Tax credits are going down, and break even time is going up therefore.
> 
> Even then 13 years to break even may not sound nice, but another 13 years after that with no electricity cost (at net metering, another necessity), does make it make sense.


 How is it *YOUR solar* when someone else paid for it?


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## snobuilder (Apr 1, 2022)

Ashful said:


> Well, this is about the most entertaining thread I've read in awhile.  I hope we keep it going, and the mod's don't see any need to shut it down.  I'll do my best to post my numbers below, but first:
> 
> 
> You are forgetting that *we* determined in prior threads, that snobuilder's setup must be running damn near negative efficiency.  It is very possible his prior claims of not saving any money by burning wood are true, given how little fuel he's saving, per cord of wood burned.



 Who the eff is WE?    🤣


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## bholler (Apr 1, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> How is it *YOUR solar* when someone else paid for it?


You are missing the point that we pay just as much in subsidies to fossil fuel companies.   So why are the subsidies for solar different???


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## stoveliker (Apr 1, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> How is it *YOUR solar* when someone else paid for it?



Same way you are complaining that I steal your gasoline from your car that you bought with subsidies from my taxes (and I can guarantee more of my money flows your way that the other way around) if I siphon it out of your car.

But I'm not.

 I heat for free and don't complain about it like you do. And I have AC for free too.

Be a bit more positive in life. It's nice.


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## Ashful (Apr 2, 2022)

Has anyone defined “your annual utility bill”, yet?  I know roughly what I spend in heating, but I don’t know what constitutes an “annual utility bill”.   I’d like to answer the poll, if that is ever defined.


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## Bad LP (Apr 2, 2022)

Ashful said:


> Has anyone defined “your annual utility bill”, yet?  I know roughly what I spend in heating, but I don’t know what constitutes an “annual utility bill”.   I’d like to answer the poll, if that is ever defined.


There is never going to be a day where my costs for wood heating to be justified as saving money. 

I could have bought an awful lot of propane for what has been spent on setting myself up to heat with wood. The biggest benefit is knowing it’s already been spent so it’s gone.


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## brenndatomu (Apr 2, 2022)

Bad LP said:


> I could have bought an awful lot of propane for what has been spent on setting myself up to heat with wood. The biggest benefit is knowing it’s already been spent so it’s gone.


Probably true...especially for you hydronic guys, but like with anything, it takes money to make money...the thing with wood heat is having your fuel for 1, 2, even 3 or more years already "paid for" and on site...plus being able to keep the house warmer without worrying about the cost. And at the end of the day if you get to the point where you decide to hang up wood heat, you have equipment that has some residual value (quite a bit these days!)  whereas with fossil fuels you have an empty tank, and wallet, that's it.


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## JRHAWK9 (Apr 2, 2022)

Bad LP said:


> I could have bought an awful lot of propane for what has been spent on setting myself up to heat with wood. The biggest benefit is knowing it’s already been spent so it’s gone.



The way I see it though is when you pay the LP bill, that money is gone forever. You can't re-sell the LP after you are done with it.  It has zero residual value.

At least with buying all the equipment needed for wood burning, it all has a residual value and one can simply sell everything to re-coup probably 75% of what you initially have into them.  $10,000 in equipment is still worth, say, $7,500 when one is done with it.  $10,000 in LP is worth $0 when one is done with it.

I can't speak for everyone, as some of you guys have some pretty fancy setups that cost a lot of $$$$, but taking into account my wood furnace install and all my equipment (minus the ATV, as I use that for recreation as well), I am very close to breaking even, or am already there after 7 years.  I know I am already way on the "plus" side of things when just looking at the cost of my wood furnace and new chimney install (~$10,000).

If I were to decide I wanted to get out of it right now, I could sell my wood furnace for dang near what I paid for it back in 2014.  The chimney install, obviously, has zero residual value though.  The rest of my equipment does and I could probably re-coup 75% of what I have into it.  Then there is my wood supply.....at $250/cord I am sitting on over $16,000 of wood.  In terms of processing wood, one HAS to like it and see it as a form of exercise and not as work.  If you see it as work and value your time spent as $$$, then you will never see it as saving $$.

In my situation, the value of a cord of wood is worth more to me in heat than it is for me to liquidate it and pay for LP.  Before heating with wood, we'd use ~1,100 gallons of LP a year to heat this place to keep it at 68° and have the basement un-heated.  This is ~$2,600 in today's LP prices.  Over the past 7 years of heating with wood, we've burned, on average, ~16,000lbs (~4.4 cords of red oak).   So I'd have to sell my wood for ~$600/cord or more right now if I wanted to liquidate it and use it to pay the LP man to heat the house.  Heating with wood, we keep the house 70-72 the majority of the winter as well heat the basement solely off radiant heat of the furnace.  Even when LP was $0.99/gal......we'd still have to sell the wood for ~$250/cord and we still wouldn't have a house that is as warm as it is with wood heat.

For the record, when we left at the end of February for a week, the LP furnace ran for over 53 hours over 8 days to keep the place 55°.  This cost us over $100 in LP over 8 days to keep the place 55°. 


This years heating season is still in progress:


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## JRHAWK9 (Apr 2, 2022)

brenndatomu said:


> And at the end of the day if you get to the point where you decide to hang up wood heat, you have equipment that has some residual value (quite a bit these days!) whereas with fossil fuels you have an empty tank, and wallet, that's it.



beat me to it with WAY less words!


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## stoveliker (Apr 2, 2022)

Did the calc of JRHAWK above as well.

I have $300 in processing equipment, and $1500-$2000 in a shed (bad timing, but a mental health project in early covid...).
The shed can be repurposed if I quit wood; add walls. It's that sturdy, and the roof is as good as on my home.

The $300 is manual axes and a corded electric chainsaw.

The wood is delivered here for free (ok, $25 to the driver).

This year, I used about 5.6 face cord = 2.87 cord (b/c avg was 17", so slightly more, but ok). mixed oak, pine, ash, sassafras. Given their relative quantities, I estimate about 22 million BTU per cord. That equates to 63 million BTUs put into the stove. At 70% efficiency, that means I got 44 million BTUs in my home.

Had I used oil (at 90 pct efficiency?), I'd have had to put 49 million BTUs into my furnace. 
At 138500 BTUs per gallon, that'd have been 353 gallons of oil. At $3.50 per gallon (b/c price now is higher, but I think that was near the start of the heating season here when I'd have filled up), I saved $1235 this heating season.


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## Ashful (Apr 2, 2022)

Maybe I’m too much of an optimist, or ignoring too many equipment costs, but I really don’t understand how any of you are failing to save money, unless you’re depreciate way more equipment than is really needed for your usage.  Outside working today, just took a quick break, but will post some numbers tonight.


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## stoveliker (Apr 2, 2022)

I'm wrong in my cordage. 1.87 cord...
So that amounts to $802 saved in oil. Still 2.5 times my equipment investment in one year.


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## bholler (Apr 2, 2022)

Ashful said:


> Maybe I’m too much of an optimist, or ignoring too many equipment costs, but I really don’t understand how any of you are failing to save money, unless you’re depreciate way more equipment than is really needed for your usage.  Outside working today, just took a quick break, but will post some numbers tonight.


If you honestly figure in the value of your time I seriously doubt heating with wood saved and money over some other options.


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## stoveliker (Apr 2, 2022)

But that only makes sense if you'd have used that time to actually make that money. Most of us don't.


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## Bad LP (Apr 2, 2022)

bholler said:


> If you honestly figure in the value of your time I seriously doubt heating with wood saved and money over some other options.


My time is only worth what I rather be doing.  If it’s a nice day I’ll go have fun and play with wood some other time.


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## JRHAWK9 (Apr 3, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> Did the calc of JRHAWK above as well.



I think one thing we are not taking into account is the actual delivered efficiency of a fossil fuel furnace.  The efficiency rating listed on the furnace is combustion efficiency.  The heat still has to get into the home and with the furnace kicking on/off like it does, I think we lose a lot of BTU's to heating of the duct work over and over.  The ducts cool off and have to be constantly warmed back up again once the furnace kicks back on.

I say this because when I look my own numbers, things don't make much sense.  I am essentially replacing ~1,100 gallons of LP with ~4.4 cords of red oak.

1 gal LP = 91,500 BTU's
1 cord of red oak = 23,725,000 BTU's

1,100 gallons of LP: 100,650,000 BTU's
4.4 cord of wood: 104,390,000 BTU's

Using the stated efficiencies of both appliances:

LP (92%): 92,598,000 average BTU's supplied to the house averaged over those 5 or so winters keeping the house 68° and not heating the basement.

Kuuma (78%): 81,424,200 BTU's keeping the house warmer overall and heating the basement.

So, I'm sending less theoretical BTU's into the home heating with wood all while keeping the house warmer overall and heating more volume. 

I just think using the combustion efficiency of fossil fuel furnaces to compute delivered BTU's may be inaccurate due to losses I mentioned above.


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## stoveliker (Apr 3, 2022)

Yes. Though I confused furnace and boiler; I have oil -> hot water. Those pipes are all inside the envelope and thus losses there are minimal.


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## ABMax24 (Apr 3, 2022)

bholler said:


> If you honestly figure in the value of your time I seriously doubt heating with wood saved and money over some other options.



That's exactly it. I went to work yesterday for 11 hrs of straight OT, in one single day I made enough after tax to pay the additional cost on my gas bill that my wood stove saves me over the course of the winter. There's no way I can process a winters worth of wood in one day, never mind any of the other activities associated with operating a wood stove.


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## Ashful (Apr 3, 2022)

bholler said:


> If you honestly figure in the value of your time I seriously doubt heating with wood saved and money over some other options.


Well, of course.  But I don’t figure my time, as it’s not an activity for which I can bill a customer.  I also wouldn’t figure the cost of my hourly rate into time spent at the gym, if which is surely want some more, if I didn’t have this activity.  Figuring cost of hours spent can get messy, we all have various rates for that, but surely few of us would choose another hour in the office over wielding our Stihl or Fiskars in the woods.

I’m talking true depreciation of equipment and the material goods of wood vs oil or LP alone.  If you need to consider the cost of your time, then I’d argue you’re doing this for the wrong reason, there are definitely better ways to save more money with less time. 

Things got busy last night, didn’t have a chance to post, but will to get my numbers together and post soon.  You’ve seen them before, many times, so no huge surprise.  I just want to look at how it compares to a total depreciation of all tools and equipment involved.


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## snobuilder (Apr 3, 2022)

ABMax24 said:


> That's exactly it. I went to work yesterday for 11 hrs of straight OT, in one single day I made enough after tax to pay the additional cost on my gas bill that my wood stove saves me over the course of the winter. There's no way I can process a winters worth of wood in one day, never mind any of the other activities associated with operating a wood stove.


That was kind of my point. Some OT can pay for a bunch of NG vs. the same amount of hours making your own splits I used to get homeowners that would want a discount if they helped me with whatever construction job I was doing for them. I would first ask if they know construction, then what am I doing here if they can build.....and then ask if they have overtime available at their real job which will  ....A. provide them with the $$ to pay me and B. keep them out of my way.


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## Bobbob (Apr 3, 2022)

Here is a thought: If you enjoy sitting by a fire like I do, and you are saving money on heating costs, then burn some wood. If you don't enjoy the warmth of a fire or the gathering of wood, then don't. I enjoy every chance I get to spend some time alone in the woods. Keeping the fire lit all winter provides exercise and therapy for me. Over the last 2 years dealing directly with Covid patients on a daily basis has made me appreciate all of this even more. Some things cannot be measured in dollars and "sense"


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## snobuilder (Apr 3, 2022)

Bobbob said:


> Here is a thought: If you enjoy sitting by a fire like I do, and you are saving money on heating costs, then burn some wood. If you don't enjoy the warmth of a fire or the gathering of wood, then don't. I enjoy every chance I get to spend some time alone in the woods. Keeping the fire lit all winter provides exercise and therapy for me. Over the last 2 years dealing directly with Covid patients on a daily basis has made me appreciate all of this even more. Some things cannot be measured in dollars and "sense"


I think everyone here likes burning wood for heat or rec. or both but i find as I am getting older and it gets harder to keep up, i will most likely be looking at the actual savings with a more critical eye.

I am truly impressed and actually surprised by the calculations some of you do....way beyond my comprehension or interest....just wondering if youse calculate out each sheet of TP use as well.🤣...or flush rules?


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## stoveliker (Apr 3, 2022)

No, but I do look at/think about my resource utilization. Good for a healthy outdoors and my wallet. Waste of good things (TP) remains waste. 

And I'm not saying what number of TP sheets is necessary for me 🤣


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## EatenByLimestone (Apr 3, 2022)

My wife has calculated the cost of TP out and decided she would rather spend more for soft stuff.   I got the 3rd degree when I bought some cheap stuff.


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## peakbagger (Apr 3, 2022)

The standard toilet paper is made from recycled fibers from magazines and other coated paper. The soft fluffy stuff is made from mostly virgin pulp from softwood trees. Far worse is the wet type toilet paper which usually is synthetic fiber with various wet strength additives that raise havoc on septic systems and municipal waste systems. The greenest option is the old fashioned standard TP.


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## brenndatomu (Apr 3, 2022)

peakbagger said:


> Far worse is the wet type toilet paper which usually is synthetic fiber with various wet strength additives that raise havoc on septic systems and municipal waste systems.


Truth.
If you feel like you need to better support your friendly local plumber, or drain service, keep flushing those wet wipes! 
They might say "flushable" on the package, but they lie!(well, technically they are flushable...as in when you flush, they disappear...but they very often just get caught in the drain somewhere, and once one gets caught, the rest latch on like velcro!)


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## Bad LP (Apr 4, 2022)

peakbagger said:


> The standard toilet paper is made from recycled fibers from magazines and other coated paper. The soft fluffy stuff is made from mostly virgin pulp from softwood trees. Far worse is the wet type toilet paper which usually is synthetic fiber with various wet strength additives that raise havoc on septic systems and municipal waste systems. The greenest option is the old fashioned standard TP.


Pee, poop and Charmin 2 ply are the only things going in the bowl. Plates are scraped clean in the trash bucket, rinsed and placed in the dishwasher.


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## Ashful (Apr 4, 2022)

Interesting turn, in the last few posts.

Some very round numbers:

10 cords burned per year = $5000 - $7000 saved (2020 - 2022), depending on oil prices

Total investment, round numbers:
2 BK Ashfords = $5k / 25 years
Combustors = $160 / 4 years = $800 / 20 years
2 chimneys lined = $3k / 20 years
Chainsaws & cutting gear:  $2k / 25 years
Hotrod Splitter:  $2k / 30 years
Wood sheds:  $5k / 30 years
Tractor:  $36k
Trailer w/winch:  $4k / 20+ years
Fuel < 50 gal./yr < $200/year < $4k / 20 years
Related maintenance items < $200/yr < $4k / 20 years
=====================
WORST-CASE TOTAL LIABILITIES:  $65.8k / 20+ years

I left out the three Jotuls, as I actually sold each for more than I paid, they'd have to be listed with negative cost.  

Amount saved per year = $5k (2020) - $7k (2022).  It is expected that crude will increase 2.2x over the next 18 years (2040), and there's no saying how accurate that is or what this will do with the cost of heating oil.  But as it's the only thing I have upon which to easily go, let's say my savings by 2040 could be over $15k/year.  If we consider the average of pricing over the time from now to 2040, when I'll likely be ready to call this operation done, the average price saved will be 1.5x today's rate, or $10.5k per year.

Now the returns, again very round numbers:
oil saved = $10.1k/yr = $202k / 20 years (averaged 2020 - 2040)
Sale of tractor > $30k (I've actually NEVER sold a tractor for less than I paid, thanks to inflation)
Sale of splitter > $1k
Sale of chainsaws > $1k
Sale of trailer > $2k
Woodsheds:  $0
Stoves:  $0
Liners:  $0
==========================
WORST-CASE TOTAL RETURNS:  $236k / 20 years

Accounting for inflation using this method is a bit muddy, as the sale items are in (assumed) 2040 dollars, and the oil saved is in an averaged 2031'ish dollar.  But the gap from $236k return on $66k spent is so enormous that arguing about the impact of inflation is really pointless, there's absolutely no way to flip the reality that the return is many times higher than the investment.

This is my most pessimistic view of it.  In reality, I suspect my savings are higher.  As a homeowner with some property and a big old house to maintain, I'd surely own things like a tractor, chainsaws, and a trailer... they'd just all be less expensive variants of the same things I own now.  Maybe I shouldn't even count them as liabilities, with regard to heating with wood.  Likewise, even if I follow my proposal to cut back some on wood usage, the gap today is so enormous that I have zero concern of closing it.


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## JRHAWK9 (Apr 4, 2022)

wow, one little sarcastic comment sent the thread down the toilet.


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## stoveliker (Apr 4, 2022)

threads are not good for my sceptic system ...


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## Bad LP (Apr 4, 2022)

JRHAWK9 said:


> wow, one little sarcastic comment sent the thread down the toilet.


It was begging to go sideways. 😂


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