# Sources for insulated pipe.



## ken999 (Jan 6, 2009)

What are my options for 1 1/4" or 1 1/2" insulated pipe for an OWB? I see Central Boiler has 1 1/4" ThermoPEX. Are there others?


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## leaddog (Jan 6, 2009)

if you are a do it yourself type you can dig the trench, make a "V" out of foam board lay the pex in and pour your own foam or spray it using one of the spray type. Even better put your pex into 4 or 6 in drain pipe, (with out the holes) and foam over that. The pour your own foam can be bought from masterpkg.com. Tell them you want the stuff they make surf boards from (slow rising). It runs about $500 for 50-60 cu ft and comes in 5gal containers. The shipping is less as there is no hasmet charge. You will want to do the pour in two layers but it works great. They will want to sell you gloves, cleaning solvent, and containers but it is cheaper to buy gloves local, use large burger king plastic cups to measure and a plastic tub to mix in. 
You just mix equal amounts of A and B, mix with a paint mixer on a drill for about 15 sec and pour. You pour just a small amount in a line and after about 1 min. it will start to rise. Just continue with the whole line and then go back and make the second pour and that will cover the top. This is a closed cell foam and I'm very happy with it. I poured mine into a concrete culvert with my pex inside a 6in pipe. I have 3in of foam and there is NO snow melt. The first stuff they sent was two fast acting and I wasn't happy with that as I couldn't control the pour but the surf board slow rising stuff was very easy to work with. You can also have a spray contractor come in and spray it. That is what Heaterman does on a lot of his installs but unless you have a lot to do the cost is higher and hard to get a contractor to come in. Just make sure you get closed cell as open cell will fill with water.
leaddog


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## Rick Stanley (Jan 6, 2009)

Ken,

Here's what I used.............http://www.ccallis.com/bubble__foil_insulation.htm#REHAU INSULPEX

It was recommended by GARN, it's in the ground below frost line (4ft.) but not hooked up yet. Hopefully it's good.

Anyway, it's a good price if you can pick it up and they will make arrangements for you to meet them on the road, that's what I did.

Just watch out on the sizing of any pex for your system. Some brands are OD and some are ID. This Insulpex is OD. The 1-1/4", so called, actually measures about 1-1/16" ID.

Rick


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Jan 11, 2009)

Microflex

I've used a few different sorts, and I've never dealt with another one that showed this kind of quality, yet.

The insulation is actually foamed pex, according to the specs.  Use their head loss chart, though, because it's listed to flow _better_ than similarly-sized pex by some other manufacturers.

Joe


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## AOTO (Jan 11, 2009)

There are a couple of types of pre-manufactured underground piping. You will see below the pipe I am using for my OWB.  I am running 150' from my house to the boiler and 150' from my barn to the boiler, basically the boiler is in the middle of the two. I chose to use the double wrapped piping since I needed better flexibility than the "Thermo-Pex" stuff. A couple of things here, I did not go with Central Boiler products for any of my OWB needs. I have so far only dealt with Rick Davis at Sequoyah with great satisfaction. The double wrapped piping I chose was 1 1/4" piping that is buried underground. I did not go thru my foundation, but rather right above the sill plate when I come into the buildings.  This way it is above the water line and no seepage can occur since it is at least 9" above the ground. 
Looking back, I could have gone with one inch piping -which would have made the whole project "user friendly". Using the 1 1/4 piping was a pain because nobody carried standard crimp rings for this size. You will see in my pictures I used stainless aircraft style hose clamps.  They use a Hex / Allan head socket on the end of a ratchet which really needs to cinched down quite hard.  Had I gone with 1" piping;  crimp rings, fittings and couplers are located in any hardware store, Home Depot or Lowes.  You could even use the Shark-Bite couplings for one inch connections.  I also used 1 1/4 piping under my house in the basement to the existing boiler, which ended up having a 1" or 3/4" black fitting.  
I am getting some heat loss in the trench that was used. I noticed that this is the first place that the snow disappears from.  I don't know if the trench wasn't deep enough or, if the double wrapped, should have been triple wrapped.  I do plan on digging up part of the piping in spring and covering it with either some blue board or some Farmtek Bubble Refractive Plastic I have left over from my radiant barn project.  
Central Boiler uses the Thermopex piping, WDHeat uses Double wrapped "easy lay" and BHS insulated (which is similar to Thermopex).    Check out www.wdheat.com for options.   Again, I used the double wrap because of pricing and flexibility.  But no matter what kind of piping you use; a) none of it is easy to work with.  b) dig it as deep as you can go.


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## ken999 (Jan 11, 2009)

Interesting piping BHT. Thanks.


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## rowerwet (Jan 11, 2009)

Thermopex only needs to be buried 6" deep and will cost you the least  fuel due to heat loss, my yard is frozen over the pipe and has been since the ground froze. It all comes down to cost, and  where do you want your money going, into a the best installation you can get or into fuel.


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## leaddog (Jan 11, 2009)

mhvfd said:
			
		

> Again, I used the double wrap because of pricing and flexibility.  But no matter what kind of piping you use; a) none of it is easy to work with.  b) dig it as deep as you can go.



digging deeper doesn't stop the heat loss it just takes it longer to reach the top. If the insulation value isn't there you still lose the btu's. foil/bubble/bubble/foil gives some insulation but no where near the value of foam. 
leaddog


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## flyingcow (Jan 11, 2009)

BrownianHeatingTech said:
			
		

> Microflex
> 
> I've used a few different sorts, and I've never dealt with another one that showed this kind of quality, yet.
> 
> ...



The microflex looks like the stuff to use. Pretty neat looking stuff. Thanks for the link, should have used that stuff a few months ago. Not that I'm going to buy any, but is the inch and 1/4 stuff vermuch more than the thermopex?


Also as noted, watch the pex sizes, just found out there can be quite variation from company to company.


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## AOTO (Jan 12, 2009)

No doubt, the foam may be the way to go, however based on the length of pipe you need to go and how much muscle you got, double wrap surely keeps my home cozy and warm.  If someone can tell me the DT value at 150' of foam versus double wrap, I beg to differ if it makes any real difference.  I thought the "easy lay" was a hard, imagine 300 feet of thermopex.  Heck, does it even come in that length? 

PS - my  Barn is no hooked up on a circ.   This week we will go live. Stay tuned.


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## Duetech (Jan 12, 2009)

There are economical 1/2" thick wall flexible closed cell foam tubes that come in 4' sections for insulating pipes. I used that on my pex installation and insulated both supply and return lines. I bought 1" pex at a considerable savings from a major retail outlet through special order. Works well in a 50' trench buried at 18-24" with no melt line even where it comes out of the ground. I saved hundreds on the install and figured at $2.36 per lineal foot for the assembled supply/return pex line. I don't have digital gauges, just analog and read about .5 d-f drop on supply side. Intend to move the boiler though and move further out to a shed with storage and wood supply. Will use same set up but use 6" corrugated instead of 4" because I want to run some wires and the 6" will allow easier insertion of the insulated pex lines. Intend to reuse the 4" pex assembly to heat my garage. I heat my dhw and house (1.7k-sf) via air exchanger. In third season.


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## leaddog (Jan 12, 2009)

mhvfd said:
			
		

> No doubt, the foam may be the way to go, however based on the length of pipe you need to go and how much muscle you got, double wrap surely keeps my home cozy and warm.  If someone can tell me the DT value at 150' of foam versus double wrap, I beg to differ if it makes any real difference.  I thought the "easy lay" was a hard, imagine 300 feet of thermopex.  Heck, does it even come in that length?



https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/31939/   Here is a thread comparing, done with quality insturments, apples to apples, by Heaterman.
I don't have documentation but from personal experience, and I've done several kinds, foam is the way to go.
leaddog


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## AOTO (Jan 12, 2009)

leaddog said:
			
		

> mhvfd said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is about the same as what I got...well, hindsight being 20/20, there it is. Too late now!  Thanks for the link.


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## Brooksie1964 (Jan 12, 2009)

Ken999
Just a quick heads up.  Make sure you ask for "I.D" inside diameter. With 1-1/4" you are actually getting 1" inside diameter. You have to allow for 1/8" wall diameter both sides.
Good Luck.


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## in hot water (Jan 12, 2009)

I would highly recommend putting the tube in a sleeve.  6" thin-walled PVC works fine for 1-1/4" lines.  Throw a couple extra 3/4 and 1/2" for water, wiring, solar etc.

insulseal.com makes pre-insulated PVC with a water proof jacket if you want to buy it ready to go.

Keeping the tube waterproofed is as important as the r-value.

 hr


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## rowerwet (Jan 18, 2009)

mhvfd said:
			
		

> I thought the "easy lay" was a hard, imagine 300 feet of thermopex.  Heck, does it even come in that length?


yes a CB dealer should be able to sell you up to 800' in one piece, special order longer possibly, or sell you water (heat) tight splices also. for 300' you would loose 3-4 degrees with thermopex. 400' is the most I have heard of for a OWB thermopex run.


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Jan 18, 2009)

leaddog said:
			
		

> digging deeper doesn't stop the heat loss it just takes it longer to reach the top.



Well, heat loss will be related to the temperature difference between the pipe and the surrounding soil.  If you are 6" below the ground, the soil will be close to the air temperature.  If you are below the frost line, the soil will be about 55 degrees, so the energy loss will definitely be lower.



			
				leaddog said:
			
		

> If the insulation value isn't there you still lose the btu's. foil/bubble/bubble/foil gives some insulation but no where near the value of foam.



Yup.  Bubble wrap provides nearly no insulation value in actual use.



			
				flyingcow said:
			
		

> The microflex looks like the stuff to use. Pretty neat looking stuff. Thanks for the link, should have used that stuff a few months ago. Not that I'm going to buy any, but is the inch and 1/4 stuff vermuch more than the thermopex?



I don't know what Thermopex costs, so I can't really make the comparison.

Joe


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## ken999 (Jan 18, 2009)

1 1/4" ThermoPEX is going for $18-19 a foot.


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Jan 18, 2009)

ken999 said:
			
		

> 1 1/4" ThermoPEX is going for $18-19 a foot.



Wholesale or retail?

Joe


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## ken999 (Jan 18, 2009)

My cost. What does Microflex cost?


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Jan 18, 2009)

That's roughly what I paid for the Microflex 32mm, dual-pipe.  I don't mark up insulated pipe (I charge for installation, but don't make a profit on the pipe) because I'd rather get the whole job than potentially make a killing on the material for one part, and end up not getting the job at all.

So I can't guarantee what anyone else would charge for it.

Joe


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## ken999 (Jan 18, 2009)

...Makes we wish I was a little closer to NH Joe.

How does the Microflex compare to ThermoPEX for insulation quality? It sure looks more flexible, which would be a real boon for a temp. winter install like I am facing.


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Jan 18, 2009)

ken999 said:
			
		

> ...Makes we wish I was a little closer to NH Joe.
> 
> How does the Microflex compare to ThermoPEX for insulation quality? It sure looks more flexible, which would be a real boon for a temp. winter install like I am facing.



You can download the design book from the website I linked.  It has all the specs on the Microflex.

They may be willing to sell direct - they have a few warehouses across the US.

Joe


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## ken999 (Jan 19, 2009)

Yeah, I looked at the specs, I'm just not sure how it compared to the ThermoPEX...Thought maybe you would know offhand.


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## rowerwet (Jan 20, 2009)

my 1" thermopex was $12.50/ foot, 18-19/foot seems high for 1 1/4".


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## DeerMeadowFarm (Oct 10, 2011)

Prices must be going down. I just paid $11 and change per foot of 1" Thermopex


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## Duetech (Oct 12, 2011)

ken999 said:
			
		

> What are my options for 1 1/4" or 1 1/2" insulated pipe for an OWB? I see Central Boiler has 1 1/4" ThermoPEX. Are there others?



For 1 to 1 1/4" pex insulation you can bury in the ground look this over. Inside 6" (you would have to add on) a six inch tube or as the ad says "bury direct". 100' of non perf corrugated plastic  tube at menards is $100. You can certainly build cheaper than buy pre constructed.  http://www.ebay.com/itm/360066868785?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649


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## WoodChoppa (Oct 13, 2011)

Cave,
That stuff looks to be "open cell".  Do they really know what they're doing when they suggest putting that product under ground?


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## Duetech (Oct 13, 2011)

WoodChoppa... They say it's expanded poly-styrene (closed cell?) but only comes in boxes  (4' x 10 pairs of halves) 40' lengths. They say you can bury it direct but do not elaborate on what to do with the joints and the side seams. I was thinking of putting it in a 6" non perf tube you can buy at M'nards. The six inch corrugated tube runs $100 for 100'. Shopping for pex-al-pex and using the tube and insulation you might be able to self assemble for as little as $8 per foot.


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## DaveBP (Oct 13, 2011)

> That stuff looks to be â€œopen cellâ€.  Do they really know what theyâ€™re doing when they suggest putting that product under ground?



Sure looks like beadboard to me. It's easy and very common to confuse the terms "expanded" and "extruded" polystyrene. Beadboard is usually white and you can see it was manufactured as small beads of plastic that were swollen up to size and then allowed to solidify. It's also porous. It will take on several times its own weight of water and lose much of its insulation value. 

If you can keep it dry it can work fine for some applications but it is also subject to deforming and shrinking when subjected to heat. I've never done any controlled experiments with it but I would stay away from the 200F the ad mentions. It certainly is not stable to as high a temperature as the common urethanes and the closed-cell "extruded" polystyrene like dow styrofoam that is sometimes called "blueboard" and others.

At one time someone posted some pictures of different types of foam that they boiled and you could see one of them was not pleased at the treatment it had received. Anyone have a link to that post?


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## heaterman (Oct 14, 2011)

Anyone know if the tubing used in Thermopex is O2 barrier type?

My own experience with factory made underground pex products is that there is nothing better (for many reasons) than MicroFlex/Watts R-flex. It delivers very low heat loss numbers and is very easy to handle, relatively speaking. It also comes in an interesting size (32mm) which is in between normal 1" and 1-1/4" pex.


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## AOTO (Oct 14, 2011)

This is a link to the specs of the pipe I used in my latest install. http://www.pexflex.net/htm/outdoor_index.htm The loss of temperature is insignificant between the boiler and the heating unit. I've used other pipe and this one is far superior plus it's oxygen barrier'd.


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## AOTO (Oct 14, 2011)

This is a link to the specs of the pipe I used in my latest install. http://www.pexflex.net/htm/outdoor_index.htm The loss of temperature is insignificant between the boiler and the heating unit. Iâ€™ve used other pipe and this one is far superior plus itâ€™s oxygen barrierâ€™d. 




I forgot to add......  This tubing is available in the CT, NH, VT and NY area


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## bpirger (Oct 14, 2011)

Back in 2003 when I built the house, I put my oil boiler outside in a "boiler shed" becuase I didn't want to hear the roar...and I have no basement.  I bought the 1" hePEX and wrapped it in the rubbery pipe insulation you can buy, and pulled two lines through a 4" conduit.  There is considerable loss through this pipe.  It is still in my system now.  Without a doubt, it will melt some snow in the winter time.  Right next to it I have my microflex installed and am working on getting the piping switched over (including hooking up the addition, extending the primary loop, blah blah blah).  BUt I'd strongly advise against 1" line in "hot dog" type insulation in conduit.  

With the microflex, don't forget about the Jentro connectors on the ends, they aren't cheap.  I paid $70 a pop for them...and needed 8.  Holy cow!  As if 23.00 a foot wasn't bad enough...

Also, around that conduit with the 1" hePEX lines, I placed extruded polystyrene.  When I dug some of it up getting the microflex in....the insulation was really heavy...it was really wet.   So if you count on an R-10 for 2" after it has been buried in the ground for a few years, I think you'll be bummed.  Maybe if you live in the desert....but then you wouldn't need insulated pipe!  Even the extruded polystyrene, when in the ground, seems to suck up a good deal of water.....YMMV.


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