# Going off grid



## SpaceBus (Mar 21, 2019)

After an extremely frustrating call with the local (only) power company, I am thinking about off grid solar again. After reading several posts on these forums I understand that I won't be saving any money, but that's not necessarily the point for me. We plan on installing a wood cook stove with DHW coil before next winter. The house has a solar water heater on the roof, but we don't know the status. The plumber seemed to think it had been bypassed. I've seen many folks say the return on investment for solar hot water is poor, but the infrastructure is already there. We do not have a washer and dryer currently, but maybe we won't at all depending on the feasibility of off grid solar. Otherwise the only thing we need constant electrical power for is the fridge and well pump.

On the other hand it might not be practical to go with solar and I might be stuck at the mercy of the power company. Currently we are responsible for three poles, which was not made known to us until after we closed on the house. The power company told me today that we have to get a contractor to place new poles, the power company won't do it...


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## BethelStrong (Mar 21, 2019)

Good luck. I’ll be watching this thread.

I’m in no position to go completely off grid, and our power is cheap, but it pisses me off to pay an extra $30 per month to have someone come out to read (and read it wrongly sometimes) the meter just so I don’t have to have a smart meter. 


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## SpaceBus (Mar 21, 2019)

My delivery costs are the same as the cost of the electricity to be produced. It's like we get double billed here. My bills are a little higher due to our old (1975) hot water heater and fridge (don't see an energy star label). Still, we use very little electricity otherwise. According to the power company the average household here uses 500 KWhr per month, but I call BS


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## Ashful (Mar 21, 2019)

500 kWh per week, maybe.

Are you implying your power company varies your rate by usage, and that you are getting the reverse of a “volume discount”?

I always wonder what these “off grid” guys’ wives or families do when they croak or get too old to maintain the system.  Live in the dark?


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## SpaceBus (Mar 21, 2019)

Ashful said:


> 500 kWh per week, maybe.
> 
> Are you implying your power company varies your rate by usage, and that you are getting the reverse of a “volume discount”?
> 
> I always wonder what these “off grid” guys’ wives or families do when they croak or get too old to maintain the system.  Live in the dark?



You could pay someone to maintain it I'm sure, but you bring up a valid point. Unfortunately I'm always thinking about what happens if I die. Part of the solar is to keep costs low for my wife if I'm not around, same with the wood cook stove. She's definitely not going to maintain that equipment.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 21, 2019)

I feel like we are pretty modest on power usage. We only watch TV once or twice a week, the house is small, few lights, very limited electric heating, but our bill is still $200-300 every month. Half of the bill is paid to the power plant for the electricity, the other half goes to the power company for delivering the power. I was already unhappy with the cost of electricity, now they tell me I have to deal with three poles. I know that would be cheaper, but it's beyond cost at this point.


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## peakbagger (Mar 21, 2019)

Wow that's tough. Have you been living on a generator since you moved in? Or is there a problem with the current service?. Normally power companies run the poles and charge you for the privilege. Years ago I had to pay a surcharge on my bill for 18 months until two other families moved in my development as the power company only did one "free" pole and I needed three. Some companies offer financing where they surcharge your bill until you pay them off. My brother paid $8,500 to his utility 2 years ago for two tall clearance poles one of them in ledge, a transformer and the cables. I expect they lost money on the deal but they buy poles in bulk and actually hire a sub to set the poles. Border Electric is based somewhere in your area. I think the dad is out of the business but I think his sons that run it and had a good rep 15 years ago. Not much of a referral but that's all I got. If you have trees and in rural area there is lot to be said for using a backhoe to dig a trench, run a conduit and have them pull a direct burial cable in. Unfortunately I don't know how long a distance they  can run a cable underground due to voltage loss. Unless someone digs it up you never need to worry about it again.

Going off grid anywhere is expensive up front and there are reoccurring charges for battery replacement. Figure power is going to cost 4 to 5 times what you pay for from a utility. Given the weather and climate in eastern maine you need a very good standby generator and plan on running it a lot in winter. The economics still line up with flooded lead acid batteries. They are very heavy, have to be kept charged and have to be equalized with a generator every few months. Lithium is the next best thing but not yet. Maybe in few years but they still are expensive. Most first time off gridders prematurely "murder"  their first set of batteries due to a steep learning curve so most pros recommend going with a cheap set initially and then get a good set when the first set is killed and you have learned your lesson. Edison style nickel iron batteries get a lot of PR but they are expensive and go through lots of water plus the Chinese replacements are not as good as the originals.

You will need a good standby generator and a bulk source of fuel. Many folks end up trading electrical independence for fuel oil independence. A bad thing in rural Maine. 

The other big downside is you are the utility and you ultimately end up being the service tech when the lights go out. Few folks have the skills and determination to live with off grid systems. When working and living near rural VT I worked with several long term off gridders and far more former off gridders plus into several folks that were former off gridders and in most cases there were divorces and house fires in their stories. Most battery banks are 48 volts and the amperages are high so when there is a problem if you don't know what you are doing its easy to get severely zapped or start a fire.

One good thing is the federal tax credit can subsidize  the cost of the off grid system by 30% (28% in 2020) but given your situation you may not be able to take full advantage of it as its a tax credit so your family needs to have offsetting income taxes. This happens on occasion with retired folks who don't have income. Take a look at this years taxes and see your total tax liability  (Line 15 on you form 1040 - Total Tax) , that's all you can offset each year.   

I hang out on the Solar PanelTalk forum. There are knowledgeable folks on it but on occasion they can be hard on newbys. Best to lurk and search so you figure out what the dumb questions are. The big answer you need to know is your total daily load in winter and how many days storage you need. Its fairly complicated but the real simple approach is , if you use 4 KWhrs a day and have three cloudy days you need 12 KWhrs of available battery storage plus some to make up for system efficiency loss. You then need enough panels to recharge the batteries in one day or you need to run the generator. The batteries need to be much larger as if you drain them too much you kill the batteries, run them undercharged you kill the batteries, forget to equalize them you kill the batteries, forget to water them kill the batteries, let the terminals get dirty melt a buss bar and possibly start a fire. Lithiums are less picky but they also loose capacity and cost more up front.  Note since you are in snow zone, unless the panels are darn close to vertical you will need to shovel them off on occasion and if they are roof mounted that can be a PITA. If you look around for program called PV watts you can see how many panels you need to generate you load in winter based on your location and panel particulars.  

That said everyone wants a rough number for system cost. I have 4.6 KW of on grid tied solar which covers my yearly load plus some extra heating but I have a big advantage of net metering so I use my extra power from summer to make up for winter. An off gridder doesn't have that luxury so their system has to be lot larger for winter or they are running the generator a lot. So here is link to place in Mass that I have dealt with in the past and seem to have a good reputation.  https://www.altestore.com/store/solar-power-systems/off-grid-home-solar-power-systems-c567/ Now click on the Base Kit #3 which is probably the bare minimum and select a battery option (where you will find out why Flooded Lead Acid is the way to go) and pick a mounting system. Looks like $17K plus install plus a diesel or propane generator. Now plan that even if you are faithful in baby sitting the batteries which few new folks do, you are replacing a few tons of batteries every 10 to 12 years. Now you know why off gird land and homes are only inexpensive on paper and why folks write big checks to hook up to the grid.


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## BethelStrong (Mar 21, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I feel like we are pretty modest on power usage. We only watch TV once or twice a week, the house is small, few lights, very limited electric heating, but our bill is still $200-300 every month. Half of the bill is paid to the power plant for the electricity, the other half goes to the power company for delivering the power. I was already unhappy with the cost of electricity, now they tell me I have to deal with three poles. I know that would be cheaper, but it's beyond cost at this point.



Wow. Last month we had a ~$130 electric bill. $30 of that is to read the meter, so really it’s only $100. Everything is electric here, except when the heat pump needs emergency heat (LP), but this year neither are being used due to the wood burner and free wood. Yes!

It’s just my wife and I, but we both work at home and use the dishwasher, dryer, run the TV all day in the background, and 2 (and sometimes 4) computers working. I even run 1-3 dehumidifiers.

Last year at this time it was more like $200, so the wood burning has helped if one doesn’t factor labor at all.

I still want me an off grid option, just because. Of course lifestyle would need to change, or I’d need to get two at home jobs or something.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 21, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> Wow that's tough. Have you been living on a generator since you moved in? Or is there a problem with the current service?. Normally power companies run the poles and charge you for the privilege. Years ago I had to pay a surcharge on my bill for 18 months until two other families moved in my development as the power company only did one "free" pole and I needed three. Some companies offer financing where they surcharge your bill until you pay them off. My brother paid $8,500 to his utility 2 years ago for two tall clearance poles one of them in ledge, a transformer and the cables. I expect they lost money on the deal but they buy poles in bulk and actually hire a sub to set the poles. Border Electric is based somewhere in your area. I think the dad is out of the business but I think his sons that run it and had a good rep 15 years ago. Not much of a referral but that's all I got. If you have trees and in rural area there is lot to be said for using a backhoe to dig a trench, run a conduit and have them pull a direct burial cable in. Unfortunately I don't know how long a distance they  can run a cable underground due to voltage loss. Unless someone digs it up you never need to worry about it again.
> 
> Going off grid anywhere is expensive up front and there are reoccurring charges for battery replacement. Figure power is going to cost 4 to 5 times what you pay for from a utility. Given the weather and climate in eastern maine you need a very good standby generator and plan on running it a lot in winter. The economics still line up with flooded lead acid batteries. They are very heavy, have to be kept charged and have to be equalized with a generator every few months. Lithium is the next best thing but not yet. Maybe in few years but they still are expensive. Most first time off gridders prematurely "murder"  their first set of batteries due to a steep learning curve so most pros recommend going with a cheap set initially and then get a good set when the first set is killed and you have learned your lesson. Edison style nickel iron batteries get a lot of PR but they are expensive and go through lots of water plus the Chinese replacements are not as good as the originals.
> 
> ...




I was afraid of the prohibitive cost. We don't have any issues, yet. A tree almost fell on the lines and it caused the pole to wobble. We went to see why and the pole is quite rotten. I called a solar contactor in Maine and basically they said my system would be too small for them and recommend a local contactor. I'm waiting to hear back. Perhaps you are right and burying the line is better. I am planning on getting a backhoe attachment for my tractor...


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## peakbagger (Mar 21, 2019)

That is real odd, normally the utility has to maintain their equipment to the Point of Connection which is their meter. Unless your meter is mounted out on the street and the poles are between the meter and the house in the vast majority of utilities they are responsible to replace them. Time to get the rules for customer interconnections from the utility and read through them.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 21, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> That is real odd, normally the utility has to maintain their equipment to the Point of Connection which is their meter. Unless your meter is mounted out on the street and the poles are between the meter and the house in the vast majority of utilities they are responsible to replace them. Time to get the rules for customer interconnections from the utility and read through them.




The meter is on the house. The power company sent us a letter back in December informing us that we own the poles and lines. Their terminology is "private poles". This was not mentioned when I started my account before moving here. It wouldn't have stopped me, but maybe we could have gotten the house cheaper...


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## Where2 (Mar 21, 2019)

Is one of the three poles we are discussing the pole with the transformer on it?

Rarely does the power company ever say you own the pole with the transformer on it. Poles that simply support the service line, sure they say you own those all the time, but not poles with transformers on them. Pull out your boundary survey for the property, you did purchase a boundary survey prepared by a surveyor when you bought this place, right? Pull out the map and see whether the poles in question are in an easement shown on the map. If you didn't have a surveyor prepare a boundary survey, I'll stop asking questions...

If you're going to buy a back hoe for your tractor, I think I'd talk to the power company about how deep they want the conduit, what size they want the conduit, and whether they want to plant a ground mounted transformer in an easement at the end of the conduit, or whether you should just oversize the conductors going into the conduit? Three poles is probably not more than 400', given Maine's not flat terrain. In FL, they get away with ~150' between poles, but it's crazy flat here.

Start lobbying your governor and state legislature to reinstate net metering.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 21, 2019)

Where2 said:


> Is one of the three poles we are discussing the pole with the transformer on it?
> 
> Rarely does the power company ever say you own the pole with the transformer on it. Poles that simply support the service line, sure they say you own those all the time, but not poles with transformers on them. Pull out your boundary survey for the property, you did purchase a boundary survey prepared by a surveyor when you bought this place, right? Pull out the map and see whether the poles in question are in an easement shown on the map. If you didn't have a surveyor prepare a boundary survey, I'll stop asking questions...
> 
> ...



We have a survey, but it is older. We were going to get a new survey this summer either way. That pole is a private pole according to the power company. My driveway is off of a dirt road that is not a part of my property. My neighbor on the dirt road is further up the hill/down the road from me. The neighbor's power lines run on poles that are right next to the decrepit old poles that my lines are attached to. As far as I can figure it my house was built first and a different power company put the poles utilized by my house that is no longer around. The current power company wants nothing to do with these poles or lines. There are about 1,200 feet of lines with three poles between my house and the state maintained paved road. None of this makes any sense to me and it's ridiculous.

In the attached diagram my lines are in red and the neighbor's are in purple.


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## peakbagger (Mar 22, 2019)

Sounds to me like you have lot of choices none of them great. Its highly unusual that a utility would allow a service to go in without a service agreement that calls out what party is responsible for what. You can ask for a copy of that agreement and may need to lawyer up to get a copy of the actual original contract. Given you are in a rural area I expect the paperwork may have not have been filled in properly and that may open up the utility to have to take responsibility for the poles. The key thing you need to confirm is what is generally called the Point of Connection (POC) which is the legal point where the utility responsibility is handed off to the consumer. This is almost always the meter and if you elect not to pay for power that is usually where the utility pulls the meter which is a disconnect. Frequently what has been done in the past is not necessarily current policy so they may be trying to cover up mistakes on their part in the past by trying to bully you into fixing what is their responsibility. Years ago the phone company got in trouble as they didn't have clear boundaries between their wiring and the home owners wiring as they used to be responsible for both. They ended up having to install network interface boxes to establish the boundary. They dont have a meter but if you open the network interface box you will find a place to unplug the phone service and if you call for service and they find the problem in the wiring on your side of the interface its an expensive service call.

I have a suspicion that if someone was injured by contact with the power line between the meter and the mainline that the utility would end up liable. 

If you do own the poles and they are just rotten underground but solid above ground there are ways of bracing the pole. An electrical contractor can drill in a support or supports next to the pole and then attach the pole to the support. If the soil is soft they can put in helical screw anchors to brace the pole.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 22, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> Sounds to me like you have lot of choices none of them great. Its highly unusual that a utility would allow a service to go in without a service agreement that calls out what party is responsible for what. You can ask for a copy of that agreement and may need to lawyer up to get a copy of the actual original contract. Given you are in a rural area I expect the paperwork may have not have been filled in properly and that may open up the utility to have to take responsibility for the poles. The key thing you need to confirm is what is generally called the Point of Connection (POC) which is the legal point where the utility responsibility is handed off to the consumer. This is almost always the meter and if you elect not to pay for power that is usually where the utility pulls the meter which is a disconnect. Frequently what has been done in the past is not necessarily current policy so they may be trying to cover up mistakes on their part in the past by trying to bully you into fixing what is their responsibility. Years ago the phone company got in trouble as they didn't have clear boundaries between their wiring and the home owners wiring as they used to be responsible for both. They ended up having to install network interface boxes to establish the boundary. They dont have a meter but if you open the network interface box you will find a place to unplug the phone service and if you call for service and they find the problem in the wiring on your side of the interface its an expensive service call.
> 
> I have a suspicion that if someone was injured by contact with the power line between the meter and the mainline that the utility would end up liable.
> 
> If you do own the poles and they are just rotten underground but solid above ground there are ways of bracing the pole. An electrical contractor can drill in a support or supports next to the pole and then attach the pole to the support. If the soil is soft they can put in helical screw anchors to brace the pole.



Thanks for the advice. A "planner" from the utility company is coming out to look around and tell us what we need to do. The lines aren't currently having issues, but I want to be on top of any issues before a pole falls or lines set my forest on fire. We are going to talk to the town hall and see if we can find out some more information


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## SpaceBus (Mar 23, 2019)

Yesterday I spoke to a local off grid solar contractor yesterday and he gave me a $10-15k price range for a full off grid system. It was a very long conversation, but a lot of good came out of it. If these poles cost over $5k to remediate, off grid will happen. We've been searching the cost of propane/ng and  appliances. We hate the glass top range and have been talking about replacing since before we bought the house and a propane/NG on demand water heater will greatly reduce electric dependency. I know I'm trading one dependency for another, but I really hate the power company. Even if I could get my electric bill down to $50/month, depending on the cost to repair my lines, I'll still come out ahead even if I have to replace solar batteries in ten years if I go off grid. Since the power company is simply refusing to repair or replace the poles, then I don't have to cut the grid connection until something takes the lines down or we chose to disconnect, so that's nice. I am very curious about what happens to the transformer.


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## BethelStrong (Mar 23, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I am very curious about what happens to the transformer.



Sounds like you own the transformer, if you own the poles 


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## SpaceBus (Mar 23, 2019)

BethelStrong said:


> Sounds like you own the transformer, if you own the poles
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I would think such a thing is pretty valuable. I brought this up to my wife and she said it might be illegal to sell it.


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## peakbagger (Mar 23, 2019)

Depending on the age it could be hazardous waste as PCBs used to be used for transformer oil..


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## BethelStrong (Mar 23, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I would think such a thing is pretty valuable. I brought this up to my wife and she said it might be illegal to sell it.



Save it for when SHTF and the grid goes down from the CME from the Super Grand Solar Minimum. Nothing will be illegal then.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 23, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> Depending on the age it could be hazardous waste as PCBs used to be used for transformer oil..



Yeah, I'm terrified of the pole blowing down during our regularly high winds and destroying our cars, tractor, and house from an electrical and/or transformer fire. I've been reading about propane appliances and doing the math on the cost of ownership over ten years off grid vs continuing with Emera (without factoring in remediating the poles) and it seems off grid is the answer. 

At some point in the future I will have to pay for continued electrical service. I can pay it up front with off grid and potentially end up saving money over my lifetime or pay to have the poles remediated and continue to pay for emera to deliver our power. Yeah, maybe an attorney will be able to convince emera to maintain the poles, but that's not going to be free either.

Between a solar water heater (the plumbing is already in place), wood cook stove with DHW coil, LP cooking appliance, LP on demand water heater, and an LP backup heater me and my wife should be able to comfortably live off grid with a good solar setup with storage. We already have a generator. I'm still researching LP refrigerators, but right now it seems that super efficient electric fridges are still better.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 23, 2019)

BethelStrong said:


> Save it for when SHTF and the grid goes down from the CME from the Super Grand Solar Minimum. Nothing will be illegal then.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't know if society will ever collapse during my lifetime, in fact I doubt it. However I still want to be independent from the grid.


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## BethelStrong (Mar 23, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> Yeah, I'm terrified of the pole blowing down during our regularly high winds and destroying our cars, tractor, and house from an electrical and/or transformer fire. I've been reading about propane appliances and doing the math on the cost of ownership over ten years off grid vs continuing with Emera (without factoring in remediating the poles) and it seems off grid is the answer.
> 
> At some point in the future I will have to pay for continued electrical service. I can pay it up front with off grid and potentially end up saving money over my lifetime or pay to have the poles remediated and continue to pay for emera to deliver our power. Yeah, maybe an attorney will be able to convince emera to maintain the poles, but that's not going to be free either.
> 
> Between a solar water heater (the plumbing is already in place), wood cook stove with DHW coil, LP cooking appliance, LP on demand water heater, and an LP backup heater me and my wife should be able to comfortably live off grid with a good solar setup with storage. We already have a generator. I'm still researching LP refrigerators, but right now it seems that super efficient electric fridges are still better.



I think there is something to be said for the multiple off grid strategy vs. just electric. Sure one must pay up front or the net price is the same or even more considering labor and maintenance, but with the mentality of today’s folks I can’t help but think the electric prices will go up over our lifetimes. If I was 70 I may not think the same.


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## BethelStrong (Mar 23, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I don't know if society will ever collapse during my lifetime, in fact I doubt it. However I still want to be independent from the grid.



Society has already collapsed. I was talking about total destruction, which is way more fun to contemplate [emoji848]

You mentioned losing your tractor and stuff in case of a downed powerline, obviously more probable. Hell, a deadly car accident is more probable than anything, and we have insurance for loss of things. Like I said, I understand the desire to be a little more independent. There are degrees though, and we all have our own setting.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 23, 2019)

BethelStrong said:


> I think there is something to be said for the multiple off grid strategy vs. just electric. Sure one must pay up front or the net price is the same or even more considering labor and maintenance, but with the mentality of today’s folks I can’t help but think the electric prices will go up over our lifetimes. If I was 70 I may not think the same.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



My wife and I are also trying to do this in a away that will be easy for us when we are old. I'm also hoping battery/storage technology will improve in the next ten years. If storage tech improves, we won't need as much, if any, propane and maintenance should be easier. If anything our ability to remain independent from utilities should only improve over time. There are a dozen or so families in my area living off the grid, so it is possible.

Unless something big happens in the way of renewable electricity generation the costs of electricity will only rise. My power company actually just this month raised rates!


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## BethelStrong (Mar 23, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> Unless something big happens in the way of renewable electricity generation the costs of electricity will only rise. My power company actually just this month raised rates!



I’m a pessimist (and studied), so I think we could have already had almost free power 100+ years ago, and for sure now. Thing is, it will be resisted at all costs... Even Solar is in on it, so prices will remain “competitive” until they can’t, almost as a rule.

I watch this guy on YouTube that takes old lithium cells and tests them and makes his own Tesla PowerWall. He even had a couple covers designed out of glass with the Tesla logo, just for fun. I forget the channel now, and I’m not home to look, but it’s pretty cool. He connects with off grid commercial shops too, and made an electric old VW Bus [emoji590] 

I’d love to see you tell the power company you don’t need them. I’m rooting for you, but then I need, and I mean NEED my internet, and I’ve not figured out how to beat $25 per month for water, let alone send my own satellite into orbit for keeping my megabits flowing.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 23, 2019)

BethelStrong said:


> I’m a pessimist (and studied), so I think we could have already had almost free power 100+ years ago, and for sure now. Thing is, it will be resisted at all costs... Even Solar is in on it, so prices will remain “competitive” until they can’t, almost as a rule.
> 
> I watch this guy on YouTube that takes old lithium cells and tests them and makes his own Tesla PowerWall. He even had a couple covers designed out of glass with the Tesla logo, just for fun. I forget the channel now, and I’m not home to look, but it’s pretty cool. He connects with off grid commercial shops too, and made an electric old VW Bus [emoji590]
> 
> ...



I've considered satellite internet, but it's too slow for the insane prices. Right now I have a wired connection from spectrum for internet and home phone and it's pretty cheap. I'll probably dig a trench a bury that if we separate from the power company. Despite the issues with our house, it has a well and plenty of land, so worth it to us at least. I just wish I had known about this pole nonsense before we moved in, we could have started on this stuff way earlier.


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## BethelStrong (Mar 23, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I've considered satellite internet, but it's too slow for the insane prices. Right now I have a wired connection from spectrum for internet and home phone and it's pretty cheap. I'll probably dig a trench a bury that if we separate from the power company. Despite the issues with our house, it has a well and plenty of land, so worth it to us at least. I just wish I had known about this pole nonsense before we moved in, we could have started on this stuff way earlier.



I was joking about sending my own satellite for my own internet [emoji1632]but my rich neighbor has his own air conditioned Bobcat for fun (not work), and he has his own plane [emoji927] he flies himself back and forth from here to his house in Florida, so a guy can dream.

Oh, a forgot I know a guy who makes mini steam Powerplants. Talk about off grid! Of course it’s 100+ year old tech made new again, but that’s what big powerplants use; steam. Nothing beats steam, but he’s not trying to compete with Big Power. He’s thinking we will go back to 1800’s lifestyle, so the guy with an expensive per KWatt powerplant will be king of the neighborhood [emoji555]


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## Dataman (Mar 23, 2019)

Anyone Catch recent Pawn Stars and Rick went to his Off the Grid House in Oregon.    Hydro Generator

https://battlebornbatteries.com/offgrid-with-rick-harrison/

He's using 1k batteries, 48 of them!  Must be nice to be rich


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## BethelStrong (Mar 23, 2019)

Dataman said:


> Anyone Catch recent Pawn Stars and Rick went to his Off the Grid House in Oregon.    Hydro Generator
> 
> https://battlebornbatteries.com/offgrid-with-rick-harrison/
> 
> He's using 1k batteries, 48 of them!  Must be nice to be rich



It is nice to be rich. I mean, that’s what I’ve heard, and seen from a few rich people I know hahaha

I’ve been to that guys Pawn Shop. He was already a Pawn Star, but I just wonder how rich he was before the show. That place was unbelievably tiny.

I listened to his speech at CPAC too, and he seemed like he didn’t understand why they wanted him there. I felt a little dirty when he explained how pawnshops help poor people, since banks won’t loan to them, and these Payday Loans shops popped up to “help” them. It’s all “usury” to me...


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## SpaceBus (Mar 23, 2019)

BethelStrong said:


> I was joking about sending my own satellite for my own internet [emoji1632]but my rich neighbor has his own air conditioned Bobcat for fun (not work), and he has his own plane [emoji927] he flies himself back and forth from here to his house in Florida, so a guy can dream.
> 
> Oh, a forgot I know a guy who makes mini steam Powerplants. Talk about off grid! Of course it’s 100+ year old tech made new again, but that’s what big powerplants use; steam. Nothing beats steam, but he’s not trying to compete with Big Power. He’s thinking we will go back to 1800’s lifestyle, so the guy with an expensive per KWatt powerplant will be king of the neighborhood [emoji555]
> 
> ...



Our realtor has a house in Arizona and sells houses there six months a year. Then he flies to Maine and sells houses here the rest of the year. He probably spent more on maintenance for both houses last year than our house cost.


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## BethelStrong (Mar 23, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> Our realtor has a house in Arizona and sells houses there six months a year. Then he flies to Maine and sells houses here the rest of the year. He probably spent more on maintenance for both houses last year than our house cost.



It’s crazy huh crazy [emoji12] 

Mine has a full time caretaker that I’m close with. Bobcat, Tractor, 2 Rangers 4x4, three 4wheelers, not to mention the corporate plane. Oh, and an outdoor shooting range!

I benefit, so I’m not complaining at all. Free firewood to top it all off.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 23, 2019)

BethelStrong said:


> It’s crazy huh crazy [emoji12]
> 
> Mine has a full time caretaker that I’m close with. Bobcat, Tractor, 2 Rangers 4x4, three 4wheelers, not to mention the corporate plane. Oh, and an outdoor shooting range!
> 
> ...



I cashed out a lot of money I had saved for many years to buy my tractor. It has already been an invaluable tool in the weeks I have owned it.


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## BethelStrong (Mar 23, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I cashed out a lot of money I had saved for many years to buy my tractor. It has already been an invaluable tool in the weeks I have owned it.



His just sits there. Well maintained, 4x4 JD with bucket. Several implements too... it’s mine if I ask. I’m lucky...


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## peakbagger (Mar 23, 2019)

Forget LP refrigeration. Very expensive to run. SunFrost DC refrigerators were the standard for years but they shut down because modern high efficiency refrigerators pretty well replaced them. Many folks make the move to chest freezers converted to refrigerators. The ultimate is a Sundanzer DC chest refrigerator but very pricey. 

You are not the first one who has gone off grid. Check out this link to the archive page of Home Power https://www.homepower.com/. It would be worth going though the back issues as it was the magazine for off gridders. They used to sell CDs of back issues but since they stopped publishing I think you need to download them. 

The economics of off grid changed radically over the years, the early folks had to pay a premium for efficiency as the panels were very expensive. Panel prices dropped so most folks just installed much bigger arrays so efficiency is far less important. Unfortunately batteries are still expensive so in a northern climate where you need several days of storage you either go with efficient appliances, run a generator, or cut way back on your usage until the sun comes out again.


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## BethelStrong (Mar 23, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> Forget LP refrigeration. Very expensive to run. SunFrost DC refrigerators were the standard for years but they shut down because modern high efficiency refrigerators pretty well replaced them. Many folks make the move to chest freezers converted to refrigerators. The ultimate is a Sundanzer DC chest refrigerator but very pricey.
> 
> You are not the first one who has gone off grid. Check out this link to the archive page of Home Power https://www.homepower.com/. It would be worth going though the back issues as it was the magazine for off gridders. They used to sell CDs of back issues but since they stopped publishing I think you need to download them.
> 
> The economics of off grid changed radically over the years, the early folks had to pay a premium for efficiency as the panels were very expensive. Panel prices dropped so most folks just installed much bigger arrays so efficiency is far less important. Unfortunately batteries are still expensive so in a northern climate where you need several days of storage you either go with efficient appliances, run a generator, or cut way back on your usage until the sun comes out again.



Reading this makes me want to move to Mexico and eat tacos.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 23, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> Forget LP refrigeration. Very expensive to run. SunFrost DC refrigerators were the standard for years but they shut down because modern high efficiency refrigerators pretty well replaced them. Many folks make the move to chest freezers converted to refrigerators. The ultimate is a Sundanzer DC chest refrigerator but very pricey.
> 
> You are not the first one who has gone off grid. Check out this link to the archive page of Home Power https://www.homepower.com/. It would be worth going though the back issues as it was the magazine for off gridders. They used to sell CDs of back issues but since they stopped publishing I think you need to download them.
> 
> The economics of off grid changed radically over the years, the early folks had to pay a premium for efficiency as the panels were very expensive. Panel prices dropped so most folks just installed much bigger arrays so efficiency is far less important. Unfortunately batteries are still expensive so in a northern climate where you need several days of storage you either go with efficient appliances, run a generator, or cut way back on your usage until the sun comes out again.



I'm hoping to find some very efficient appliances, within reason of course. My research into LP fridges concurs with what you said. I haven't looked into converted chests. We actually have a chest freezer that came with the house that we haven't used. Sounds like a worthy conversion candidate.

I feel like LP backup heat is overall superior to the baseboard heaters. It seems like all of the major stove manufacturers offer attractive freestanding lp stoves that can operate on a thermostat. We can even have an lp stove, kitchen range, and on demand heater on the same wall for an easy install.


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## BethelStrong (Mar 23, 2019)

What about geothermal? At least in conjunction with...

My other neighbor has geothermal, but he does HVAC for s living, and had a backhoe to dig a pond.

Also, what about a boiler? My place is way too small to even consider it, but since you are talking complete off grid, I just wonder what people here know about the feasibility.

I’m still working on my Flux Capacitor so I can bounce into the future and bring back some true free energy, but there are a lot of things on my list that keep getting in the way.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 23, 2019)

I've thought about a natural draft gasification boiler like a member here has, but I don't have nearly enough house for that. Our house actually has a passive solar heating arrangement that allows us to use no heat on sunny days. A geothermal situation would be nice, but unnecessary. I think our insurance company would like us to have a "primary" heat source that doesn't require human intervention. 

I can't believe you can use a chest freezer like that. Less than 1kwhr per day!


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## Where2 (Mar 23, 2019)

BethelStrong said:


> Reading this makes me want to move to Mexico and eat tacos.


Actually a similar topic came up in discussion with one of my college professors today: retirement by way of a sail boat hopping around the Caribbean. You can make fish tacos, and there's generally not much tax on the fish, assuming your voyages take you into international waters every so often... Anywhere you want to sit on dry land, the taxes are generally higher... Renting a slip in FL is prohibitively expensive!



SpaceBus said:


> I can't believe you can use a chest freezer like that. Less than 1kwhr per day!


I still kick myself for not buying the SunDanzer I saw on CL once... The next best thing is an Engel with the little sawafugi compressor. The problem with Engel's is the off-road 4x4 guys love them, and drive the pricing up on the used market. I have two old Engel units that just keep running whenever I ask them to. If you're buying new, just get the sundanzer.

Last time I was at Richardson's Hardware up in Patten, Maine they had an LP refrigerator on the sales floor for sale. If you really want one, you might call and see if it is still there. The Patten area has lots of properties where grid power is not economically feasible. EMERA just sent us a notice saying how much their distribution rates were increasing... I just shook my head in disgust. I wish net metering would come back to Maine.

In FL, you can find the LP/Electric fridges that the snow birds pull out of their RV's when they replace them with 120V home/apartment refrigerators.

As for internet, when in Maine I have fiber to the house for an insane low price. In FL, I have a garbage DSL connection over 60 year old copper wires that resembles 1995 dialup speeds, and it costs more than my fiber connection!!


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## BethelStrong (Mar 23, 2019)

Where2 said:


> You can make fish tacos...



Mmmmm... I love fish tacos.


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## zrock (Mar 23, 2019)

I got bored of reading this after post 20 so sorry if this is covered... how close are your neighbors poles can you not share with your neighbour? Iv never seen a company run 2 different services like that. Since the poles are yours instead of replacing them with the overpriced poles from hydro look for come cedar poles. About 1/4 the price if u prep em yourself. Since its private property and poles they cannot specify what u have to use... we use cedar on all our private poles 

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## Ashful (Mar 24, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> Yeah, maybe an attorney will be able to convince emera to maintain the poles, but that's not going to be free either.


Typical retainer for something like this would be $750, and you'll likely not even use up half of it.  So, if you have any other issue for which a lawyer might help, two birds... one stone.  In your case, a real estate attorney might be useful, if you have any zoning or old obsolete ordinances you'd like to address, and they could handle the utility issue.


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## BethelStrong (Mar 24, 2019)

zrock said:


> I got bored of reading this after post 20 so sorry if this is covered... how close are your neighbors poles can you not share with your neighbour? Iv never seen a company run 2 different services like that. Since the poles are yours instead of replacing them with the overpriced poles from hydro look for come cedar poles. About 1/4 the price if u prep em yourself. Since its private property and poles they cannot specify what u have to use... we use cedar on all our private poles
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk



If you think this is boring, you should go over and read that forum section where guys write 1000 word posts for weeks about saving the planet from “Climate Change” and “Global Warming” [emoji3061]


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## maple1 (Mar 24, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> We have a survey, but it is older. We were going to get a new survey this summer either way. That pole is a private pole according to the power company. My driveway is off of a dirt road that is not a part of my property. My neighbor on the dirt road is further up the hill/down the road from me. The neighbor's power lines run on poles that are right next to the decrepit old poles that my lines are attached to. As far as I can figure it my house was built first and a different power company put the poles utilized by my house that is no longer around. The current power company wants nothing to do with these poles or lines. There are about 1,200 feet of lines with three poles between my house and the state maintained paved road. None of this makes any sense to me and it's ridiculous.
> 
> In the attached diagram my lines are in red and the neighbor's are in purple.



Have you talked to your neighbour? it would seem to me the best thing to do would be to just run a short line over from your neighbours line and abandon the long one in from the road. Not sure the situation on who owns what over there. Around here, the neighbour would just grant an easement to you for that short section, between the pole you come off of, and your property line. Then once the easement is in place, the power company would hook you up. That's done around here all the time.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 24, 2019)

zrock said:


> I got bored of reading this after post 20 so sorry if this is covered... how close are your neighbors poles can you not share with your neighbour? Iv never seen a company run 2 different services like that. Since the poles are yours instead of replacing them with the overpriced poles from hydro look for come cedar poles. About 1/4 the price if u prep em yourself. Since its private property and poles they cannot specify what u have to use... we use cedar on all our private poles
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk



They said they wouldn't deal with our poles because they are old cedar poles, but I will find out soon exactly what they need to be in place. We're also going to find out about burying the line if possible.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 24, 2019)

maple1 said:


> Have you talked to your neighbour? it would seem to me the best thing to do would be to just run a short line over from your neighbours line and abandon the long one in from the road. Not sure the situation on who owns what over there. Around here, the neighbour would just grant an easement to you for that short section, between the pole you come off of, and your property line. Then once the easement is in place, the power company would hook you up. That's done around here all the time.



Ha, I just met the neighbor a few days ago. She came to complain because FedEx left my packages at her house. Next she complained about having to drive around my tractor once, I was cleaning up widowmakers around the power lines. The final thing she asks me is "What are you doing here?". Basically, I doubt this woman will do anything for us and is probably the whole reason our lines aren't on her poles. Our poles were placed when the dirt road only went to our house. At some point the previous owners sold the land north of us, up the road, and a house was built. The dirt road turned into an easement before we ever bought the place. The poles were placed in 1975 before any of that happened in the 80's.


The plot thickens. An emera truck showed up about a month ago to place a couple of new poles along the dirt road. I didn't realize our lines weren't put on them. Especially since they had to disconnect our power to make this happen.

At this point I want to go off grid so I never have to deal with emera again and when I'm old I won't be paying huge electric bills.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 24, 2019)

BethelStrong said:


> If you think this is boring, you should go over and read that forum section where guys write 1000 word posts for weeks about saving the planet from “Climate Change” and “Global Warming” [emoji3061]
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I actually do read those!


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## BethelStrong (Mar 24, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I actually do read those!



When I was a kid I loved to read Frank Herbert’s Dune and the sequels. A complete and utter waste of time, except it made me sound smart at times. Kinda like Climate Change thwarters... 


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## BethelStrong (Mar 24, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> The final thing she asks me is "What are you doing here?". Basically, I doubt this woman will do anything for us and is probably the whole reason our lines aren't on her poles.



Oh, and I’m so sorry you have a neighbor like this.  Everyone spends money on an inspector, or warranty, and insurance when they buy a house, but I’m convinced the money would be better spent on background checks and PI surveillance of the neighbors hahaha


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## SpaceBus (Mar 24, 2019)

BethelStrong said:


> Oh, and I’m so sorry you have a neighbor like this.  Everyone spends money on an inspector, or warranty, and insurance when they buy a house, but I’m convinced the money would be better spent on background checks and PI surveillance of the neighbors hahaha
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Ha, the house had a bunch of issues anyway  so the inspection was a waste! The wife and I are both frustrated about this emera thing and the surprise renovation from undisclosed damage. At the end of the day, it's still everything we wanted, even if there's some sweat equity involved. Some of the locals say we can probably get Emera to not be such dicks about this whole thing, but I know they will just be dicks again in the future. Even if we don't end up going off grid, our house still needs some new appliances, so we might as well make everything super efficient. Even with having part of our exterior wall made of insulation and plastic, the house has stayed 70+ with 1.5 cords and a half pallet of Bio bricks since mid November.


Sorry, I'm venting a bit, this winter hasn't been easy!


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## BethelStrong (Mar 24, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> Ha, the house had a bunch of issues anyway  so the inspection was a waste! The wife and I are both frustrated about this emera thing and the surprise renovation from undisclosed damage. At the end of the day, it's still everything we wanted, even if there's some sweat equity involved. Some of the locals say we can probably get Emera to not be such dicks about this whole thing, but I know they will just be dicks again in the future. Even if we don't end up going off grid, our house still needs some new appliances, so we might as well make everything super efficient. Even with having part of our exterior wall made of insulation and plastic, the house has stayed 70+ with 1.5 cords and a half pallet of Bio bricks since mid November.
> 
> 
> Sorry, I'm venting a bit, this winter hasn't been easy!



Same here. Our house had issues the inspector missed. The worst part was the previous owner is also our “bad” neighbor in the back. Basically, he knew, and this became the bad neighbor, especially when we didn’t bite on the extra 7 acres separating our properties. He has 25, so I only see him when he rides his daughter on the 4 wheeler once a week to check where I mowed. I’m not kidding. I mowed once around the trees that are on our lines, and he didn’t like it. Screw him. He can pay the property tax on my scene that he owns.

My great neighbor doesn’t like him (or trust him) either, so I’ve got an alliance.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 24, 2019)

BethelStrong said:


> Same here. Our house had issues the inspector missed. The worst part was the previous owner is also our “bad” neighbor in the back. Basically, he knew, and this became the bad neighbor, especially when we didn’t bite on the extra 7 acres separating our properties. He has 25, so I only see him when he rides his daughter on the 4 wheeler once a week to check where I mowed. I’m not kidding. I mowed once around the trees that are on our lines, and he didn’t like it. Screw him. He can pay the property tax on my scene that he owns.
> 
> My great neighbor doesn’t like him (or trust him) either, so I’ve got an alliance.
> 
> ...



I'm trying at all costs to avoid a neighbor fight. We are getting a new survey done this summer for sure. I haven't met any of the other neighbors yet, but we are all separated by several acres.


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## CaptSpiff (Mar 24, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I'm trying at all costs to avoid a neighbor fight. We are getting a new survey done this summer for sure. I haven't met any of the other neighbors yet, but we are all separated by several acres.


Why did the FedEx driver deliver your packages to your neighbors house?
Is your home properly identifiable from the main road?
Why is your neighbor pissed at having to drive around your tractor, was it blocking their egress?

New neighbors don't become new neighbors until they meet under pleasant circumstances. I suggest, with the on set of warmer weather, that you plan on next Saturday walking over to each of your neighbors and exchange "emergency phone numbers". Then ask them about the upcoming spring weather and what a new home owner should watch out for. Then you'll be new neighbors.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 24, 2019)

CaptSpiff said:


> Why did the FedEx driver deliver your packages to your neighbors house?
> Is your home properly identifiable from the main road?
> Why is your neighbor pissed at having to drive around your tractor, was it blocking their egress?
> 
> New neighbors don't become new neighbors until they meet under pleasant circumstances. I suggest, with the on set of warmer weather, that you plan on next Saturday walking over to each of your neighbors and exchange "emergency phone numbers". Then ask them about the upcoming spring weather and what a new home owner should watch out for. Then you'll be new neighbors.



New driver went right past our driveway without realizing it was there. I caught him the next time, but not before he got an earful from the neighbor. The only part of my tractor in the dirt road was the bucket on the loader. When she brought the packages down she said something along the lines of having to drive around my "machine". I was winching widowmakers away from the power lines. That was the first time she had ever even seen evidence of our existence other than tire tracks. 

I have considered baking a loaf of banana bread or similar and taking it up there for a proper introduction. However, I don't want to be shot or accosted by a senior citizen. I think one of my other neighbors on the eastern side of our property has a solar off grid system, we hear their generator occasionally. They aren't on our poles, but I have far less trepidation about meeting them.


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## zrock (Mar 24, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> Ha, I just met the neighbor a few days ago. She came to complain because FedEx left my packages at her house. Next she complained about having to drive around my tractor once, I was cleaning up widowmakers around the power lines. The final thing she asks me is "What are you doing here?". Basically, I doubt this woman will do anything for us and is probably the whole reason our lines aren't on her poles. Our poles were placed when the dirt road only went to our house. At some point the previous owners sold the land north of us, up the road, and a house was built. The dirt road turned into an easement before we ever bought the place. The poles were placed in 1975 before any of that happened in the 80's.
> 
> 
> The plot thickens. An emera truck showed up about a month ago to place a couple of new poles along the dirt road. I didn't realize our lines weren't put on them. Especially since they had to disconnect our power to make this happen.
> ...



What did they put on these new poles? And why would they have to disconnect power if they did not connect u. That set up is strange as i have never seen them do 2 different runs that distance. Usually 1 run and they split it at the end by installing power meters on the poles and going underground to homes, or putting a transformer and splitting from their... 

Home inspectors should be held accountable one of the only jobs where you can screw up as bad as you want and still get paid for it... I can see them missing minor things but if they miss something major they should be held accountable for the repair costs. You would see alot drop out of the biz as they are not worth the report they provide.


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## BethelStrong (Mar 24, 2019)

Just print up hand them a Neighborhood Watch welcome letter, and when they say they didn’t join any program, that’s when you say “are you sure about that?”.  Be sure to have your biggest pair of binoculars down at your side.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 24, 2019)

zrock said:


> What did they put on these new poles? And why would they have to disconnect power if they did not connect u. That set up is strange as i have never seen them do 2 different runs that distance. Usually 1 run and they split it at the end by installing power meters on the poles and going underground to homes, or putting a transformer and splitting from their...
> 
> Home inspectors should be held accountable one of the only jobs where you can screw up as bad as you want and still get paid for it... I can see them missing minor things but if they miss something major they should be held accountable for the repair costs. You would see alot drop out of the biz as they are not worth the report they provide.



Yes, I agree, it's nonsense. I called Emera and they said they won't do chit about it and I need to get a contractor if I can't do it. Obviously I told them I have no clue how to handle this and they are _graciously_ sending someone to tell us what needs to happen. Of course Emera didn't give me a way to contact this person or any management and I have to wait for them. Nobody at Emera even informed me of the private pole situation until a month after we moved in, I made the account months before we even closed! Just as another poster said, Emera has also increased their delivery rates. The more they correspond with me, the more I want nothing to do with them. Now I've got this ticking time bomb looming over my driveway....


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## SpaceBus (Mar 24, 2019)

Ha, the nearest utility contractor is an hour away.... Lovely ...


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## zrock (Mar 24, 2019)

Stringing overhead is actually pretty easy. I have done several runs and then just have had the hydro company or electrician come in and do the final connection.. Worse part is its hard on the arms if you dont do it all the time. We just rent a man lift and away we go.

Still do not know why they disconnected your power and put up poles?

Do any of your poles have anchors on them. I see the one does but its pretty loose.. 

Surprised to see the trees so close to the wires.. No room to get equipment in their in case of a issue..


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## SpaceBus (Mar 24, 2019)

zrock said:


> Stringing overhead is actually pretty easy. I have done several runs and then just have had the hydro company or electrician come in and do the final connection.. Worse part is its hard on the arms if you dont do it all the time. We just rent a man lift and away we go.
> 
> Still do not know why they disconnected your power and put up poles?
> 
> ...



This was a vacation house from 1985-2018. Nothing was maintained during that time. When I say nothing, I really mean it. Someone kept the trees from encroaching upon the cleared area and house, but that's it. I don't think the current power company set these poles, only the new ones next to mine on the easement road. I don't know why our power had to be disconnected, the guy just said they were putting up new poles and had to do it. I'm sure the power company will be reasonable and connect to those poles, but they might belong to the neighbor, and that poses a separate issue. I wish I had paid more attention before they came and set up the new poles. I don't think I ever looked closer than making sure no trees were hanging over the lines.


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## zrock (Mar 24, 2019)

So you need to contact your local power company and find out exactly why those poles were put in... they just dont pop em in for no reason, so ether a neighbor is upgrading or their is new construction going in farther back.  It would be beneficial to find out as it could save you alot of money. The installers sould have informed you what they were for since they interrupted your service


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## begreen (Mar 24, 2019)

Seems like half the people in Maine are trying to get away from something or everything.


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## BethelStrong (Mar 24, 2019)

begreen said:


> Seems like half the people in Maine are trying to get away from something or everything.



And just by being there, they did.


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## CaptSpiff (Mar 24, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I have considered baking a loaf of banana bread or similar and taking it up there for a proper introduction.


That would work with me. And i'd love to have a neighbor with a tractor!  

Here's my two cents:
1. Get a bigger house number sign at the end of the driveway.

2. Don't plan on going off grid unless the Quality of Service is so poor. It'll never be cheaper.

3. My last month's home electric usage was 300 kwh, I use Nat Gas for everything. My small vacation cabin which I visit one weekend a month, and keep at 55 deg F, used 1760 kwh for the same month (all electric). Get used to paying for energy. You can investigate LP for your heat, domestic HW, clothes drying and cooking Or consider #2 home heating oil for heating and DHW, but you'll probably need a chimney. Energy is never free.

4. You are not being "double billed" for your electric. About 15 years ago there was a major effort to deregulate the electric utility industry. The Fed Govt felt that with the franchised Utility owning their own power plants, there was no incentive to get the cheapest power for their customers, and forced the utilities to sell off their plants. Customers would then be able to shop for power suppliers they liked (cheaper or greener) and the Utility would just be responsible to deliver it (for a fixed price). That's why there are usually 2 or 3 different parts to the bill. My opinion: Sometimes deregulation works, sometimes it doesn't.

5. The decay at the base of the one pole you photographed does not appear bad. What is a problem is the guy wires appear slack and that needs to be addressed. Also, I noticed the pole has either telephone or cable service attached. This complicates the possibility of using your easterly neighbors pole line in place of your 3 poles.

6. The Power Utility runs distribution lines along the main roads at 4000 to 13000 volts. When it needs to feed a few houses it usually taps that line with a fuse and extends that high voltage line a few pole sections down the road or driveway to a transformer. The transformer brings the voltage down to 120/240 used in your house. In my Utility's parlance for an overhead supply, the wire connection from the transformer to your house (weatherhead) is called the Service Drop, and the weatherhead cable/conduit to your meterbox is called the Service Entrance. The service drop is usually owned by the utility. The service entrance is usually owned by the homeowner. The meterbox is owned by the homeowner and the meter is owned by the Utility. Every utility uses slightly different terms for these parts, but what's very clear to them is "who owns what". My Utility is required by the State Regulators (PSC or PUC) to give a home owner 100' of high voltage line, 100' of service drop, and one pole & transformer if needed (free). Anything extra the home owner needs to pay for.

7. The Utility Planner, who will come out to inspect your situation, has the power of God, and you should be very nice to him. He works for the Utility and has the full and final say in what needs to be done. Did I mention you should be very nice to him. He usually spends most of his time interacting with professional contractors, and probably doesn't enjoy dealing with homeowners cause each one "wants a special deal". Don't be that guy.

8. Relax. You almost made it thru the winter. Maine winters can be brutal. Your power problem doesn't sound like a big problem and the Maine spring and summer are the best. Oh,... except for mud season and the black flies, those aren't the best.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 24, 2019)

begreen said:


> Seems like half the people in Maine are trying to get away from something or everything.


This is why I'm here.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 24, 2019)

zrock said:


> So you need to contact your local power company and find out exactly why those poles were put in... they just dont pop em in for no reason, so ether a neighbor is upgrading or their is new construction going in farther back.  It would be beneficial to find out as it could save you alot of money. The installers sould have informed you what they were for since they interrupted your service



They feed the neighbors power further down the easement road. Why my lines aren't connected to it is a mystery. The linesman told me he was putting in new poles. I didn't think I needed any more details than that. I am learning a lot.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 24, 2019)

CaptSpiff said:


> That would work with me. And i'd love to have a neighbor with a tractor!
> 
> Here's my two cents:
> 1. Get a bigger house number sign at the end of the driveway.
> ...



1. This is an easy fix. I'll probably take care of it tomorrow 

2. So far the quality of service is deplorable, so it won't take much.

3. We have been averaging 1000 kwh a month, but that's with a 40 year old electric water heater, old fridge, and an older glass top range. It's in the works to get rid of all of this. We also use an hour or two of electric heat on really cold mornings when I didn't feel like getting up to feed the stove, but it's usually just one baseboard heater in the bedroom.

4. I know I'm not literally being double billed, but the cost of delivery is the same as the cost of the product. It's just a shock to me after dealing with a much different system of billing.

5. There is a cable for internet and phone, but it should be a non issue. 

6. We'll see how this clarification goes with the planner

7. I'll definitely be ncie to the planner, it's my wife I have to look out for, she can be terrifying!

8. Indeed it is great to have made it through winter! I'm already enjoying spring and getting wood processed. We came to visit last summer, my first time but my wife is from the region, and it was fabulous. Yeah, the flies are bad, but no worse than mosquitoes in the south. I'm looking forward to many more seasons.


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## Where2 (Mar 24, 2019)

begreen said:


> Seems like half the people in Maine are trying to get away from something or everything.



My wife will love that one... Our place is 80 miles one way to the nearest Home Depot, it makes renovations interesting. Fortunately, the vehicle we use to make Home Depot runs gets 40mpg



SpaceBus said:


> ...
> 3. We have been averaging 1000 kwh a month, but that's with a 40 year old electric water heater, old fridge, and an older glass top range. It's in the works to get rid of all of this. We also use an hour or two of electric heat on really cold mornings when I didn't feel like getting up to feed the stove, but it's usually just one baseboard heater in the bedroom.
> ...
> 4. I know I'm not literally being double billed, but the cost of delivery is the same as the cost of the product. It's just a shock to me after dealing with a much different system of billing.
> ...



Without an energy meter, it's difficult to judge how much that "hour or two" of electric baseboard heat is costing you. Once you have an energy meter, you'll have a solid dollar value on what that hour or two of electric heat costs, and it will add incentive to feeding the wood stove. If you came from the south, you're probably not accustomed to the BTUs required to heat the ground water in Maine that comes out of the ground at 40-52 degrees. In the south my city water comes in at 77 degrees, all day and all year long. That's a lot of BTU's I didn't have to pay for before it comes out of my shower head as hot water! For our place in Maine, I'm looking at a solar thermal pre-heat tank to bring the ground water up to a warmer stage without incurring Emera charges, or adding to my #2 heating oil bill.

Yeah, reading my Emera bill took some homework. Where I grew up billing was much more straight forward.

If you're from the south, and you think you know mosquitos, you haven't met a Maine mosquito yet. I'm from the swamps of south florida, Maine mosquitos still amaze me. My wife from Aroostook County warned me about black fly season and mud season, she didn't warn me that you could put harnesses on Maine mosquitos and team them up to pull farm implements!!


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## zrock (Mar 24, 2019)

I bet that electric heater is costing about $50 to $100 per month... when our electric heaters are on at work in the winter our hydro bill would kill u... it's so high that we are getting gas installed and new furnace that will pay for itself in a year... get rid of the old appliances as well.. I had a fridge the same vintage as yours.. a entry level but good fridge paid itself off in a year... 

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


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## SpaceBus (Mar 24, 2019)

Where2 said:


> My wife will love that one... Our place is 80 miles one way to the nearest Home Depot, it makes renovations interesting. Fortunately, the vehicle we use to make Home Depot runs gets 40mpg
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You must be near us, it's about the same distance for me to get to home depot. Hammond Lumber and True Value in Machias have most everything we need. I think I have scars from some black fly bites from our June 2018 house hunting visit.

The baseboard heaters do cost us money, but we don't use them regularly. Emera put a smart meter on this house at some point so I can track my usage somewhat. I need to get one of those Kill-A-Watt devices. The light bulbs are also being slowly changed out for LED units. Mostly because I hate changing planned obsolescence bulbs, but they are cheaper in the long run as well. 

I have a rough plan for a mostly free hot water set up. My roof has an old solar accumulator that's been bypassed years ago. I could put a new one, or even two, up there. I also really want a wood cook stove with a DHW coil. My idea is to put a large water tank upstairs that is heated by the SWH and/or cook stove and then have that run into the on demand propane water heater. If it works right the propane WH shouldn't ever kick on. Having the accumulator/conditioning tank upstairs will allow for the water to circulate without pumps, in theory. I'm going to talk to my plumber about this since I'm no expert. I've read about some folks using several different water heating systems together.

Even if we don't go off grid, just changing out the appliances and getting propane back up heat will save us plenty.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 24, 2019)

zrock said:


> I bet that electric heater is costing about $50 to $100 per month... when our electric heaters are on at work in the winter our hydro bill would kill u... it's so high that we are getting gas installed and new furnace that will pay for itself in a year... get rid of the old appliances as well.. I had a fridge the same vintage as yours.. a entry level but good fridge paid itself off in a year...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk



Yeah, it's very old and can barely keep up with our small amount of usage. It's worse than we expected it to be. We planned on replacing it, but things have been slow this winter.


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## begreen (Mar 24, 2019)

Have you visited John Gulland's site on his home systems?
http://www.gulland.ca/homenergy/solardhw.htm
http://www.gulland.ca/homenergy/stove.htm


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## SpaceBus (Mar 25, 2019)

begreen said:


> Have you visited John Gulland's site on his home systems?
> http://www.gulland.ca/homenergy/solardhw.htm
> http://www.gulland.ca/homenergy/stove.htm


His stove is interesting. I was thinking more along the line of Esse Ironheart. The hot SHW is basically a functional version of what's on my roof already. I think we'll be in a much better shape simply by updating and replacing appliances.


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## begreen (Mar 25, 2019)

It's Gulland's methodology and thoughts that are worth reading. The specific hardware was not the reason for the post.


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## zrock (Mar 25, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> Yeah, it's very old and can barely keep up with our small amount of usage. It's worse than we expected it to be. We planned on replacing it, but things have been slow this winter.



Ya i hear ya their... for me this year its been all expensive things that are breaking..


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## SpaceBus (Mar 25, 2019)

So Emera just announced they are being bought by a Canadian energy company. This is making my choice even easier!


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## begreen (Mar 25, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> So Emera just announced they are being bought by a Canadian energy company. This is making my choice even easier!


Might be an improvement.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 25, 2019)

begreen said:


> Might be an improvement.


They've already raised prices.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 25, 2019)

begreen said:


> It's Gulland's methodology and thoughts that are worth reading. The specific hardware was not the reason for the post.


My plan is to do something similar with the hot water system, albeit with the help of a plumber and not with a DIY setup. On the Esse Ironheart the hot water coil is in castable refractory on the left side of the firebox. This replaces firebrick refractory.


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## maple1 (Mar 25, 2019)

I thought Emera was a Canadian energy company? Our provincial power company (N.S. Power) is an Emera company.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 25, 2019)

maple1 said:


> I thought Emera was a Canadian energy company? Our provincial power company (N.S. Power) is an Emera company.


I don't know a whole lot about the deal. From what I understand Emera Maine was an American owned company, at least that's what the Bangor Daily News seemed to say. I'll have to look into it more, I'm learning a lot about this place. I've lived in a lot of places from being in an army family and then joining the army, but new England is weird. Weirder than actual England.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 25, 2019)

maple1 said:


> I thought Emera was a Canadian energy company? Our provincial power company (N.S. Power) is an Emera company.



You are correct, it was owned by a different energy company. The power company situation here is really different than anything I've experienced.


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## peakbagger (Mar 26, 2019)

I expect if you track the history back, power was only run to the area due to rural electrification funds. Pretty much anywhere east of Bangor but particularly Washington County has been a very depressed area with the exception of a narrow strip along the coast and the area around the old Woodland Mill. The government subsidized the installation of the systems long ago but no longer. Its expensive to keep up the infrastructure and how the utilities stay around is they are guaranteed a profit on what fundamentally is an unprofitable business. The phone company is in the same situation and in some areas they are getting waivers so they can walk away from local phone service. About the only value to a electric utility owning the rights in these rural areas is the hope that they can host transmission lines from outside the region to Southern New England. PSNH (Eversource) tried to pull it off and CMP (also foreignowned) is trying it. 

The Emera sale doesnt look great, Emera is selling their low profit units and the company buying it doesn't have a lot of operations in the East and they will have a steep learning curve. Given the current situation I wouldn't be surprised that the order have come down to the managers not to spend a dime to improve the distribution system until the sale is complete and expect that is partially why you are getting stonewalled on figuring out who is responsible for the service. About the only thing that works in this situation is litigation as normally prior to final closing of transaction both parties want the litigation to be resolved. Otherwise the prior owner just stalls until it not their problem.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 26, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> I expect if you track the history back, power was only run to the area due to rural electrification funds. Pretty much anywhere east of Bangor but particularly Washington County has been a very depressed area with the exception of a narrow strip along the coast and the area around the old Woodland Mill. The government subsidized the installation of the systems long ago but no longer. Its expensive to keep up the infrastructure and how the utilities stay around is they are guaranteed a profit on what fundamentally is an unprofitable business. The phone company is in the same situation and in some areas they are getting waivers so they can walk away from local phone service. About the only value to a electric utility owning the rights in these rural areas is the hope that they can host transmission lines from outside the region to Southern New England. PSNH (Eversource) tried to pull it off and CMP (also foreignowned) is trying it.
> 
> The Emera sale doesnt look great, Emera is selling their low profit units and the company buying it doesn't have a lot of operations in the East and they will have a steep learning curve. Given the current situation I wouldn't be surprised that the order have come down to the managers not to spend a dime to improve the distribution system until the sale is complete and expect that is partially why you are getting stonewalled on figuring out who is responsible for the service. About the only thing that works in this situation is litigation as normally prior to final closing of transaction both parties want the litigation to be resolved. Otherwise the prior owner just stalls until it not their problem.



Yeah, I'm not thrilled about it. Off grid makes more sense every day I wake up 

Honestly, even with propane prices, going off grid shouldn't cost much more than my current setup.


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## Ashful (Mar 26, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> ... going off grid shouldn't cost much more than my current setup.



Here’s what I don’t get.  You’re basically saying, “I don’t mind the enormous inconvenience of going off-grid, since it’s only costing me a little more than having energy delivered in a more convenient fashion.”  What am I missing?


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## SpaceBus (Mar 26, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Here’s what I don’t get.  You’re basically saying, “I don’t mind the enormous inconvenience of going off-grid, since it’s only costing me a little more than having energy delivered in a more convenient fashion.”  What am I missing?


Well, I'll stay grid connected until the poles collapse I guess. First off I'm basically in a forced relationship with soon to no longer be named Emera. Their rates suck, their customer service is abysmal, frequent and long outages, and they get to do whatever they want. This area is also not likely to ever grow, so even less incentive for the utility company to maintain this stuff. Yeah, I am giving up a few conveniences, but I also will be primarily energy independent. We will use some propane if we go off grid, but it shouldn't be much and it's a backup and cooking fuel in the summer.


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## Brian26 (Mar 26, 2019)

What about resale value? Your average buyer is going to most likely just walk away when they hear there is no grid electric service.  I have heard tons of stories of owners off grid properties spending like 30k to install poles/lines just to sell the place.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 26, 2019)

Brian26 said:


> What about resale value? Your average buyer is going to most likely just walk away when they hear there is no grid electric service.  I have heard tons of stories of owners off grid properties spending like 30k to install poles/lines just to sell the place.


Resale is a non issue, this is where we intend to live until that is not possible. There will be poles within a few hundred feet of the house due to the neighbor up the easement road, so it shouldn't be $30k to reconnect in the future. I'd like to stay grid connected for this reason, but otherwise there is no incentive to do so. We actually passed on many land properties for sale due to the distance from any improved road, no well, septic, electricity, etc. We just aren't in the physical condition to do those things. If I weren't medically retired/disabled, we would have bought land and started from scratch off grid. Since I am this way and my wife has medical problems as well, we did the next best thing. I didn't plan on the power company saying they wouldn't do anything and it's all on me to maintain/replace/remediate this pole. Perhaps the planner, who is yet to contact me, could rectify or assist the situation, but not likely with the company changing ownership. It really seems like the right time to be done with Emera.


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## maple1 (Mar 26, 2019)

Have you gotten an estimate to have the pole replaced yet? If the power company doesn't look after them, someone privately must be doing it?

I think by the time I added up those costs, and fully pencilled out the costs of going off grid (I have no idea but from loose talk I've heard I'd guess 30k range?), I would be hard pressed to cut the cord so to speak.

(To each their own though, of course...)


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## SpaceBus (Mar 26, 2019)

maple1 said:


> Have you gotten an estimate to have the pole replaced yet? If the power company doesn't look after them, someone privately must be doing it?
> 
> I think by the time I added up those costs, and fully pencilled out the costs of going off grid (I have no idea but from loose talk I've heard I'd guess 30k range?), I would be hard pressed to cut the cord so to speak.
> 
> (To each their own though, of course...)



A rough quote from a local off grid solar installer was less than $15k, so not terrible. I'm about to call a pole contractor.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 26, 2019)

I spoke to the planner from Emera and he said they won't install a pole unless we grant them an easement, that's not going to fly. I tried to call a pole contractor, but they aren't answering.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 26, 2019)

Got in touch with the pole contractor. He said it's probably going to be $1500 minimum, much more if I need a cedar pole. They have to drill though ledge and it will get considerably more expensive if they need to place new anchor bolts. Thankfully I don't have to replace the other two poles. The planner clarified that those only have phone lines on them and spectrum or whoever will move them eventually. The new poles have my power lines and the lines going to my north neighbor up the dirt road. I do not own the transformer, just the pole. I think burying the lines from the pole is out of the question with the ledge. The planner said it would be pretty difficult to bury the line as well.

Unfortunately the pole contractor can't even come look at our place for over two weeks, about the same for the solar contractor. At $1,500 the math says it's cheaper to stay with the electric company, but not by much.


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## maple1 (Mar 26, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I spoke to the planner from Emera and he said they won't install a pole unless we grant them an easement, that's not going to fly. I tried to call a pole contractor, but they aren't answering.



Does that mean that if you grant them an easement - they will install a pole? 

Is there a cost for that? If so how much?

I wouldn't have any issues at all granting an easement if it would get me a pole. Easements can be worded to only allow what you want them to and can be confined to conditions of usage. And can also spell out conditions for release/abandonment.


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## maple1 (Mar 26, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> A rough quote from a local off grid solar installer was less than $15k, so not terrible. I'm about to call a pole contractor.



That sounds way cheap just based on what I know. Or think I do. Batteries would be a huge expense, aside from the rest of the stuff that could run $2-3/watt. We use on average maybe 20kwh/day, and I think we would need a 8000 watt system. Local incentives may play a part.


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## Ashful (Mar 26, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I spoke to the planner from Emera and he said they won't install a pole unless we grant them an easement, that's not going to fly. I tried to call a pole contractor, but they aren't answering.



I don’t understand.  Of course they can’t place their poles on your property without an easement, but what is your issue with this?  It is not a big deal.  I have given and received easements before, it simply gives them the right to access that part of your property to install and maintain the equipment servicing your house.  They likely have a boiler plate version you can use, or make it a starting point for your own.  This is not a big deal.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 26, 2019)

Ashful said:


> I don’t understand.  Of course they can’t place their poles on your property without an easement, but what is your issue with this?  It is not a big deal.  I have given and received easements before, it simply gives them the right to access that part of your property to install and maintain the equipment servicing your house.  They likely have a boiler plate version you can use, or make it a starting point for your own.  This is not a big deal.



My wife doesn't like or want an easement, and I'm not fond of them either.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 26, 2019)

Basically instead of setting up an easement and shouldering the burden of installing poles, Emera will let the customer have a private pole which then can be insured by Emera.


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## Ashful (Mar 27, 2019)

Yeah, I can understand your apprehension on the easement, it sounded like a compromise I didn’t want to make, the first time I had to deal with one.  But they have never caused me any issue, particularly for utilities, and in fact there are likely already easements along your frontage for poles or buried utilities that service your road. 

If you can pay your own way, and you’re more comfortable with that than an easement, I guess that’s a way you can go.   But then isn’t the burden of all line maintenance on you?


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## maple1 (Mar 27, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> Basically instead of setting up an easement and shouldering the burden of installing poles, Emera will let the customer have a private pole which then can be insured by Emera.



But the thing is, granting an easement will or should also lock them into maintaining the lines & poles for as long as they are there. Generally speaking, in all I have seen & experienced with them, easements are a beneficial thing.


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## peakbagger (Mar 27, 2019)

Take this for what its worth. Its pretty easy to convey technical info over a forum. Its real hard to give advice over an internet forum compared to face to face.IMO we are getting into the advice territory.

It does look like you are looking for excuses to go off grid. That is your prerogative, just realize that you are taking on a major long term effort that is going to have long term issues that far exceed the hassles associated with the grid. There is a term that is applicable that you are effectively "cutting off your nose off to spite you face". You have described that you have some medical issues associated with your service and it sounds like you live in remote area with your wife without a lot of support net. I don't wish it on you but it could put you in situation were you are temporarily unable to do the things that have to be done to keep your micro grid up and running. Sure you can train your spouse but if she it tied up nursing you and keeping the rest of the homestead running, keeping the grid up is just one more thing to worry about. The vast majority of new off gird system owners end up "murdering" their batteries by neglect and its real easy to consistently over discharge the bank because other priorities come up and then in about a year or two they discover they are running the generator close to full time as the batteries will not take a charge. I have known several folks who have put in seasonal off grid systems and every one of them have killed their first set of batteries. One guy worked for a heavy equipment firm and got used batteries for free so he did not mind except for lugging around a couple hundred pounds of batteries every 2 or 3 years. I also met several off gird year rounders in the Northeast Kingdom area of VT who are year rounders because there was no grid. Across the board they all gladly hooked up to the grid when it was available or sold the house and moved to where there was grid.     

An easement is not an evil thing, all it does is give the utility the right to access and maintain their equipment. If you want to maintain a zone of privacy that no one can enter without your permission, it is quite common to put a remote meter with a main breaker on pole some distance away from the house and then run conduit to the main panel. Barring someone digging it up or poor workmanship, once an underground cable is in place its there forever. There are limits to how long you can run the cable but I will let the pros comment. In this case the utility is only allowed to access the meter and the disconnect. 

Note you are going to have lot more strangers visiting your home when you switch your dependence from electric to diesel or propane. Unlike the power company, the fuel services do not need an easement but they do have the right to not deliver if they don't like your driveway which is major issue during mud season. There will be times when the supply chain gets locked up (usually in winter) where if you can get propane or heating oil you will be paying a significant premium. If you put in a bulk propane tank unless you want to write a very big check and take the responsibility to have your tank inspected and re-certified every so many years, you will be leasing the tank and buried in the lease is effectively language amounting to an easement.

Unless Emera has a really weird billing structure, there is usually a base fixed rate for the privilege of service, the rest of the bill are all use related, the more power you use the more you pay. I pay $12 a month flat rate its worth it to me I only pay for power and transmission services if I use power. You are far better off going on a "power diet" and going with max efficiency appliances. Its likely that Maine is going to legislate net metering now that that there is new governor. Even if the state does not go with net metering you can install PV and shift your loads to match solar production possibly augmented with small AC lithium battery for daily load shifting. PV is cheap these days so as long as you have a solar window you can put in near vertical panels to avoid the snow issue.

I had linked to Home Power magazine previously. There is a long term monthly column about a off grid couple out west that ran for years which describe day to day living with an off grid system.  Might be worth going through them.


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## jebatty (Mar 27, 2019)

Easements can be tricky, as you already know. Among other things mentioned, the easement must be defined as to exact legal (survey) location. Watch especially the width of the easement, pole maintenance/replacement, line clearing responsibility, responsibility for damage to trees/buildings from downed line (think fire or worse), clean-up, timeliness of the utility performing its duties, any responsibilities you have, and a whole lot more. The easement form of the utility is likely all about it and nothing to protect you.

Our electric utility wanted to cut down a huge swath of mature trees which towered over their line along the road accessing our property. After lots of arguing, we finally made a deal that we would pay $100/foot for them to install, bury, and maintain the underground line across our frontage, which also serves many other properties down the road.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 27, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> Take this for what its worth. Its pretty easy to convey technical info over a forum. Its real hard to give advice over an internet forum compared to face to face.IMO we are getting into the advice territory.
> 
> It does look like you are looking for excuses to go off grid. That is your prerogative, just realize that you are taking on a major long term effort that is going to have long term issues that far exceed the hassles associated with the grid. There is a term that is applicable that you are effectively "cutting off your nose off to spite you face". You have described that you have some medical issues associated with your service and it sounds like you live in remote area with your wife without a lot of support net. I don't wish it on you but it could put you in situation were you are temporarily unable to do the things that have to be done to keep your micro grid up and running. Sure you can train your spouse but if she it tied up nursing you and keeping the rest of the homestead running, keeping the grid up is just one more thing to worry about. The vast majority of new off gird system owners end up "murdering" their batteries by neglect and its real easy to consistently over discharge the bank because other priorities come up and then in about a year or two they discover they are running the generator close to full time as the batteries will not take a charge. I have known several folks who have put in seasonal off grid systems and every one of them have killed their first set of batteries. One guy worked for a heavy equipment firm and got used batteries for free so he did not mind except for lugging around a couple hundred pounds of batteries every 2 or 3 years. I also met several off gird year rounders in the Northeast Kingdom area of VT who are year rounders because there was no grid. Across the board they all gladly hooked up to the grid when it was available or sold the house and moved to where there was grid.
> 
> ...



Sage advice indeed. I will definitely take it to heart. This power line issue has just been another setback among many. Perhaps a small expandable grid tied system with storage is a better solution. A few years from now I'd like to build a barn/workshop and a cabin for my MIL. It would be easier to connect them to the solar system rather than putting in more poles or granting an easement to the power company. We shall see what the pole contactor says in a few weeks along with the solar contractor.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 27, 2019)

I am still considering a propane range, thankless water heater, and possibly propane backup heat, but the question of the tank comes in like you mentioned. The range and water heater won't use much so I could even use a 40-100 lb cylinder and have a few spares like I did when we lived in the RV. I couldn't get the on board tank filled, so I had to improvise with a kit to run smaller cylinders. It's the backup heat that would benefit from a larger commercial sized tank.


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## BethelStrong (Mar 27, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I am still considering a propane range, thankless water heater, and possibly propane backup heat, but the question of the tank comes in like you mentioned.



My water heater in thankless too. I give it shelter, feed and keep it well hydrated, and I even drain it now and then so it’s not dirty and corroded. It has never once showed its appreciation. Except I’ve never had a cold shower with this particular electric water heater.

Let us know how you like a tankless water heater if you try though, because once my thankless water heater dies, I was considering it.

Btw, I can’t stand the glass cooktop on our electric stove. My wife is Russian, and it drives her nuts to cook on it. Not only is it impossible to keep clean, but electric simply sucks for good cooking. I was thinking about putting gas in for that reason, and now maybe the on demand water heater, not to mention a bigger capacity/storage for my generator.


Changed the Tapatalk signature line so people can sleep better. Sent from my Chinese phone.


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## 3fordasho (Mar 27, 2019)

We have some tankless water heaters at work that have been very problematic.  I love my heat pump water heater but since you are trying to convert everything to propane I would suggest a conventional propane water heater - but get one with out a standing pilot (they use more than you think) and one with power vent or flue damper to reduce standby losses.   These will also be 30-50% less expensive than a tank less unit up front and there will not be much difference in propane usage.  The only advantage I've seen with the tank less units is they are very compact.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 27, 2019)

BethelStrong said:


> My water heater in thankless too. I give it shelter, feed and keep it well hydrated, and I even drain it now and then so it’s not dirty and corroded. It has never once showed its appreciation. Except I’ve never had a cold shower with this particular electric water heater.
> 
> Let us know how you like a tankless water heater if you try though, because once my thankless water heater dies, I was considering it.
> 
> ...



We hate this horrible glass top business, especially with large pots for stew or brisket. There's a gorgeous restored antique gas and wood cook stove for sale near me, but I don't know what our insurance company would say to it, and unlisted wood appliance clearances suck.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 27, 2019)

3fordasho said:


> We have some tankless water heaters at work that have been very problematic.  I love my heat pump water heater but since you are trying to convert everything to propane I would suggest a conventional propane water heater - but get one with out a standing pilot (they use more than you think) and one with power vent or flue damper to reduce standby losses.   These will also be 30-50% less expensive than a tank less unit up front and there will not be much difference in propane usage.  The only advantage I've seen with the tank less units is they are very compact.



When my parents were stationed in Europe we had gas fired tankless units and they were really great for us. I think it really depends on the maintenance. Space is definitely at a premium since we are on a slab and this needs to go in a small room.


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## BethelStrong (Mar 27, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> We hate this horrible glass top business, especially with large pots for stew or brisket. There's a gorgeous restored antique gas and wood cook stove for sale near me, but I don't know what our insurance company would say to it, and unlisted wood appliance clearances suck.



I’d be interested to know if the insurance company cared. Ours didn’t care about the wood burner at all. Cook stoves are maybe different. Our wood burner obviously isn’t our “primary” heat source, but we didn’t need an inspection or anything at all. I put it all in myself, which should have given the insurance company pause hahaha


Changed the Tapatalk signature line so people can sleep better. Sent from my Chinese phone.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 27, 2019)

BethelStrong said:


> I’d be interested to know if the insurance company cared. Ours didn’t care about the wood burner at all. Cook stoves are maybe different. Our wood burner obviously isn’t our “primary” heat source, but we didn’t need an inspection or anything at all. I put it all in myself, which should have given the insurance company pause hahaha
> 
> 
> Changed the Tapatalk signature line so people can sleep better. Sent from my Chinese phone.



We had some issues with getting insurance, but I think it had more to do with living on the coast than the wood stove. They did send someone out to see how close the trees were to the house though. We went through an agent to get our policy, so at least we can ask her before we have to talk to the insurance company directly


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## Where2 (Apr 6, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> You must be near us, it's about the same distance for me to get to home depot. Hammond Lumber and True Value in Machias have most everything we need.



Google says our place is ~120 miles north of you. Fortunately for us, it's all I-95 to get to Home Depot. From anywhere Downeast around Machias, it's a bunch of Route 1 or Route 9 to get to to Bangor. 

There's always trade-offs with easements. My wife's employer got a check that would have paid off half our mortgage for granting an easement 5' wide and 120' long, abutting one of their property lines, so the power company could install a transformer and service an adjoining subdivision. They used directional drilling to install their conduits, and the only visible piece of equipment is a 4'x4'x2' ground mounted transformer. (this particular property where the easement exists is a block off the Atlantic Ocean in South Florida. The power company flies their top executives to work in a helicopter that flies over our house at 7:50AM every day, the cost of that easement was small potatoes to them...)  

Not sure I understand why the new pole can't go in the same spot as the old pole, even if it meant having to disconnect power to your house for a day or two to get it installed and the wires installed on the new pole?? If there's already a hole in the ledge for the old one, why make more holes?


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## SpaceBus (Apr 7, 2019)

Where2 said:


> Google says our place is ~120 miles north of you. Fortunately for us, it's all I-95 to get to Home Depot. From anywhere Downeast around Machias, it's a bunch of Route 1 or Route 9 to get to to Bangor.
> 
> There's always trade-offs with easements. My wife's employer got a check that would have paid off half our mortgage for granting an easement 5' wide and 120' long, abutting one of their property lines, so the power company could install a transformer and service an adjoining subdivision. They used directional drilling to install their conduits, and the only visible piece of equipment is a 4'x4'x2' ground mounted transformer. (this particular property where the easement exists is a block off the Atlantic Ocean in South Florida. The power company flies their top executives to work in a helicopter that flies over our house at 7:50AM every day, the cost of that easement was small potatoes to them...)
> 
> Not sure I understand why the new pole can't go in the same spot as the old pole, even if it meant having to disconnect power to your house for a day or two to get it installed and the wires installed on the new pole?? If there's already a hole in the ledge for the old one, why make more holes?



You bring up a good point, I'll ask the contactor about it when he eventually comes here. I got hammered in taxes this year and I will next year too, so my budget for solar has been eaten up. I'm still going to have the solar contractor out here to see what it would cost. I might get a small solar loan if it's not too bad. I'd like to put the line underground like you said, but the cost is probably outrageous. Maybe it's worth it to get an electrician out here to see.


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## Johnny_Fiv3 (Apr 8, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> We hate this horrible glass top business, especially with large pots for stew or brisket. There's a gorgeous restored antique gas and wood cook stove for sale near me, but I don't know what our insurance company would say to it, and unlisted wood appliance clearances suck.



Is it an induction compatible glass top or just a glass top with the heating elements in it? Ours does both and while using it conventionally with regular pots completely sucks for large pots with a lot of liquid or the pressure canner, when using induction cookware it's phenomenal.


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## georgepds (Apr 9, 2019)

Long post, so I’m not sure anyone has recommended this path

Go half way.. grid plus off grid

Back in the late 90’s early 00’s my electric company did not have net metering. What I did was create a shadow system (solar plus batteries) and rewired key power users in the house (tv, fridge, water pump, etc). It’s not the hard to run a few wires. I just placed a shadow plug near the grid plug for these uses. In the winter, when generation was low, I’d switch back to grid by moving to the grid plug.  You can do this more formally with a switch at the breaker panel

That said, I’d not go back to batteries if there was another choice. You are in Maine. The administration just changed and I understand, under this administration, net metering is coming back. I'd take advantage of that


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## peakbagger (Apr 9, 2019)

The background for the prior posters approach is some but not all utilities installed ratcheting "one way meters" so any excess generation from the solar system would be treated as purchases of power so the solar owner had to be careful to always use what they generated. Otherwise they were paying utility rates to the utility to send the power to the grid. Utilities also used software to detect possible fraud. They tracked the long term usage of power for the service and it changed substantially on the low side they would send out a service tech to make sure that the meter had not been tampered with. There were all sorts of creative ways to tamper with a meter some very dangerous. Other folks skipped the meter and ran jumpers between the incoming line and the house. If the power company caught anyone stealing power they would disconnect the feeder as long as it wasn't  between September 1st and April 1st as the state had a law that a person had a right to power during those months even if they didn't pay for it. On April 1st they would pull the power and the owner had to pay the money they owned or they would not hook it up. If it wasn't hooked up by September 1st they would not hook it up unless the bill from last year were paid. 

 I had one of the earlier legal Grid Tied systems in my part of NH and expanded it a couple of times. After the original install and two upgrades I got a visit from meter tech looking for fraud. They would install new meters but their standard meter was bidirectional without a ratchet so the meter literally ran backwards when I had excess. At some point they switched to the current style meter that has two channels, one that measures utility power and one that measures my surplus sent out to the grid. A few years ago NH changed the rules around so the utility charges me taxes on power I get back from the grid and any utility power. I was assured by several folks involved with creating the regulations for net metering that I probably had a case to sue but I was not in the mood to  pay a lawyer to sue a power company and the state on what totaled to be about $2 a year. 

Some areas of the company are doing time of day billing. Some folks are getting creative and charging their batteries when power is cheap and the selling it back to utility when its expensive. The utilities are figuring it out and putting in all sorts of new regulations. 

Net metering is now back in Maine and all power companies regulated by the state have to offer it.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 9, 2019)

Not until recently have I understood why people hate power companies/utilities. I would like to do grid tied with batteries after we fix the house up.


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## Where2 (Apr 9, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> Net metering is now back in Maine and all power companies regulated by the state have to offer it.



Finally!! Now I apparently have two ground mount systems I need to install...


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## SpaceBus (Apr 9, 2019)

Where2 said:


> Finally!! Now I apparently have two ground mount systems I need to install...


It's not the best deal though, at least right now. The way I understand it is you can pay forward on your bill with your excess generation and you can accrue a positive balance and you won't have to pay your bill  The downside is this resets in January when you need that power generated the most. It's really not that great.


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## CaptSpiff (Apr 9, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> Not until recently have I understood why people hate power companies/utilities. I would like to do grid tied with batteries after we fix the house up.


I still don't understand why you hate the electric company.
So far you've taken a photo of a pole which you own, suspecting it to be rotted.
Did you get a few quotes on addressing this pole? Or reinforcing the bottom with a steel channel & bands?
Did you look into taking the slack out of the (two?) guy anchors shown in the photo?
What specifically did the Utility Planner suggest when he came to visit?

It seems what you really hate is paying for electric energy. Welcome to the club.
States in New England and NY have made little effort to keep energy cost low.
In fact their primary focus is Clean Air and Energy Efficiency as driven by in-state special interests.
On the supply side, constrained natural gas pipelines drive up the winter wholesale electric prices. For which you pay.
Are any of the 3 plus major regional NG pipeline improvements gaining any traction? Nope, too many special interests.
Do the Electric Utilities get hurt or bothered by this? Nope, they have bill offsets granted by the state, so they always get their "approved" profit.
Why do the states play along? Because the Utilities are the largest in-state tax collectors, who will never vote them out of office.

You have an all electric house, because it was a vacation house.
You may have a marginally insulated house, because it was a vac house.
You should probably focus on building up your alternative winter fuel supply, and enjoy the upcoming spring and Maine summer.
Don't waste time hating the electric company.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 9, 2019)

CaptSpiff said:


> I still don't understand why you hate the electric company.
> So far you've taken a photo of a pole which you own, suspecting it to be rotted.
> Did you get a few quotes on addressing this pole? Or reinforcing the bottom with a steel channel & bands?
> Did you look into taking the slack out of the (two?) guy anchors shown in the photo?
> ...


You misunderstand, I don't hate paying for services, I hate being taken advantage of. Before moving here we looked up the rates and budgeted accordingly. My bill is double what we expected, because nobody online mentioned the delivery fees. This is non existent in other places I've lived. The power company also didn't tell me I would be responsible for for the pole until December. I created the account over the phone in August. 

This house is actually extremely well insulated and isn't meant to be a vacation home, that's just what it was used for. It's not an all electric house; there is a passive solar heating wall, solar water heater (unsure of condition), and an interior masonry chimney for a wood stove. The walls are 2x6 making them 8" thick with great insulation. We've only used 3 cords of wood since November and our stove max output is 35,000 BTU, the insulation isn't the issue.

It's mud season so I can't get anyone out here. There's one contractor an hour away. He said it will most likely be $1,800 minimum, maybe more. A solar contractor is also coming and I'm hoping between this guy and the plumber the solar water heater can be resurrected. The planner just suggested a contractor to replace the pole and to speak with an electrician about burying the line. 

My wife and I still haven't decided between a HPWH and an on demand LP system. Either way, I'm getting a wood cook stove installed with a 40 gal range boiler upstairs to heat my water 8+ months per year. The plumber will be our here soon for those estimates.

The NG pipeline constraints are a totally separate issue and I don't know enough ot converse with you on the topic.


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## maple1 (Apr 10, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> You misunderstand, I don't hate paying for services, I hate being taken advantage of. Before moving here we looked up the rates and budgeted accordingly. My bill is double what we expected, because nobody online mentioned the delivery fees. This is non existent in other places I've lived. The power company also didn't tell me I would be responsible for for the pole until December. I created the account over the phone in August.
> 
> This house is actually extremely well insulated and isn't meant to be a vacation home, that's just what it was used for. It's not an all electric house; there is a passive solar heating wall, solar water heater (unsure of condition), and an interior masonry chimney for a wood stove. The walls are 2x6 making them 8" thick with great insulation. We've only used 3 cords of wood since November and our stove max output is 35,000 BTU, the insulation isn't the issue.
> 
> ...



I'm thinking you might have something else going on that is affecting your power bill.

How many KWH/mo does your bill say you use? What is your all-in price per KWH? That is, total bottom line bill $$, divided by KWH used? (Including delivery - all in). Ours is around $0.18/KWH.

Your DHW cost shouldn't be all that much, relatively speaking. Unless you use a lot of hot water. Ours only runs us around $25/mo, using a (fairly new very well insulated) ordinary 80 gallon tank heater. It was even at that level when we had the kids here full time. 

You can get an energy monitor, and start figuring out exactly where your KWH are going. The first thing I would investigate, is the water supply & pump. Those can very sneakily eat up KWH if there is a problem, or even if the settings aren't optimized. We have an Effergy whole house monitor - very handy. It is on the shelf right beside me, and quick glance shows the house is using 1.68 kw at this moment. That's with the mini-split running, at -4c outside.

(But, if you are using your electric baseboard quite a bit, those will eat BTUs, no question - not sure how much you are actually using them, or how much heat you get from wood vs. the electric.)


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## SpaceBus (Apr 10, 2019)

I've been monitoring my usage and it's $0.20/kwh. The hot water heater by and large is the majority of the use followed up by the electric range. I did the math and the electric range costs $0.50/hr to use. The water heater is just old and busted. My wife uses a lot of hot water, but that's ok, the new system will make it much better. 

One baseboard heater kicks on in our bedroom if I don't get up before 0700-0800 to feed the stove. Otherwise it's like 98% wood heat and the heater only runs for an hour or hour and a half. After reviewing my usage it's like $5-15/month to use the one heater in this way. There is some air sealing to be done on the house as well. The SE and SW corners of the house have a lot of damage from neglect. We had to cut the SE corner open to stop water infiltrating and to close up the house we used vapor barrier, insulation batting, moving blankets, and plywood. It's holding, but I am losing heat from that area certainly. The SW corner of the house hasn't been messed with yet as it wasn't as bad.

So, with all the work we need to do and our old appliances, we use about 30kwh/day and 900-1100/month since November. I'm sure this will be reduced in the summer, especially if I can get the SHW going. I think we will be down to >20kwh/day with the new appliances.

Since we are also installing the wood cook stove with DHW option, maybe a 40 gal resistance heater wouldn't be a bad option. With the SHW and cook stove it would only rarely turn on. We still don't know what option is best for us.


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## 3fordasho (Apr 10, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I've been monitoring my usage and it's $0.20/kwh. The hot water heater by and large is the majority of the use followed up by the electric range. I did the math and the electric range costs $0.50/hr to use. The water heater is just old and busted. My wife uses a lot of hot water, but that's ok, the new system will make it much better.
> 
> One baseboard heater kicks on in our bedroom if I don't get up before 0700-0800 to feed the stove. Otherwise it's like 98% wood heat and the heater only runs for an hour or hour and a half. After reviewing my usage it's like $5-15/month to use the one heater in this way. There is some air sealing to be done on the house as well. The SE and SW corners of the house have a lot of damage from neglect. We had to cut the SE corner open to stop water infiltrating and to close up the house we used vapor barrier, insulation batting, moving blankets, and plywood. It's holding, but I am losing heat from that area certainly. The SW corner of the house hasn't been messed with yet as it wasn't as bad.
> 
> ...




Clothes dryer electric?   Ours will almost triple our daily KW usage if we use it a couple loads that day.  From 12kw to 30+ just like that.  Needless to say a gas dryer is on the way.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 10, 2019)

3fordasho said:


> Clothes dryer electric?   Ours will almost triple our daily KW usage if we use it a couple loads that day.  From 12kw to 30+ just like that.  Needless to say a gas dryer is on the way.


We don't have any washer or dryer. The 45 year old rusty resistance heater is the issue.

My wife and I are considering a gas dryer in a few years down the road. This will impact our decision about the water heater I think. If we go LP on demand, then it will be easier to go with an LP dryer later.


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## maple1 (Apr 10, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> We don't have any washer or dryer. The 45 year old rusty resistance heater is the issue.
> 
> My wife and I are considering a gas dryer in a few years down the road. This will impact our decision about the water heater I think. If we go LP on demand, then it will be easier to go with an LP dryer later.



If your water heater is that old, I would replace it ASAP with a new one of same type. Who knows what kind of crud buildup is on the inside & on the elements, and it is on way borrowed time as far as suddenly springing a leak. At likely the very worst time.

You should be able to do that for less than $500 (without knowing your exact setup) and see immediate savings. I put ours up off the floor on a (very rugged) wooden stand, on a layer of 1" foam board. Wrapped a layer of 6" fiberglass around it (held in place with taped up foil bubble wrap - looks a little hokey but not all that bad). Added a heat trap at the outlet. It is very economical. Like I say, maybe $25/mo at similar all-in rates.

You should also be able to adapt a tank type heater to another heat source later if you want to, by T'ing off the bottom inlet or drain, and the relief valve fitting.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 10, 2019)

maple1 said:


> If your water heater is that old, I would replace it ASAP with a new one of same type. Who knows what kind of crud buildup is on the inside & on the elements, and it is on way borrowed time as far as suddenly springing a leak. At likely the very worst time.
> 
> You should be able to do that for less than $500 (without knowing your exact setup) and see immediate savings. I put ours up off the floor on a (very rugged) wooden stand, on a layer of 1" foam board. Wrapped a layer of 6" fiberglass around it (held in place with taped up foil bubble wrap - looks a little hokey but not all that bad). Added a heat trap at the outlet. It is very economical. Like I say, maybe $25/mo at similar all-in rates.
> 
> You should also be able to adapt a tank type heater to another heat source later if you want to, by T'ing off the bottom inlet or drain, and the relief valve fitting.



Yes, the water heater is changing soon, it's just hell trying to get someone to the house because of mud season. I think we've made up our minds to go with an LP on demand unit and a 40 gallon range boiler in the "attic" behind the bathroom above the utility room. The range boiler will be fed by the existing SWH and the wood cook stove going in this fall.


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## begreen (Apr 10, 2019)

Will the 40 gallon "boiler" have any form of heating element or is it just a hot water storage tank fed by a hot water jacket on the stove below?


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## SpaceBus (Apr 10, 2019)

begreen said:


> Will the 40 gallon "boiler" have any form of heating element or is it just a hot water storage tank fed by a hot water jacket on the stove below?


Yes, it's not a true boiler, range boiler is the term for a water storage tank for a wood cook stove. They are not the same as an electric water heater tank or what folks use for hydronic heating. This tank will hold potable water from our well. Range boilers are not insulated and have several connections. Some are stainless steel and some have hyrastone liners, but I'm going with a stainless tank for a lighter weight option.


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## Where2 (Apr 10, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> It's not the best deal though, at least right now. The way I understand it is you can pay forward on your bill with your excess generation and you can accrue a positive balance and you won't have to pay your bill  The downside is this resets in January when you need that power generated the most. It's really not that great.



Actually, with my brief research on it last night, it sounds much better than the Gross Metering system that went into effect in 2017.

You mentioned you have some air sealing to do, that's where I'd start focusing my attack for quick results. Air infiltration is like tossing coins out an open window in your predominantly heating climate these past few months. Have you asked around to see if anyone you know has access to a thermal infrared camera? Heating season is the best time to go hunting down thermal issues with a thermal camera. Map them out, and plan an attack for summer, working from largest to smallest issues.

Having heated my Maine hot water for showers for an entire summer using the oil fired boiler in my basement, I'd take your old electric water heater over $3.25/gallon #2 heating oil. However, I'm still going to build a pre-heat tank powered by SHW, before I install a tankless electric.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 10, 2019)

Where2 said:


> Actually, with my brief research on it last night, it sounds much better than the Gross Metering system that went into effect in 2017.
> 
> You mentioned you have some air sealing to do, that's where I'd start focusing my attack for quick results. Air infiltration is like tossing coins out an open window in your predominantly heating climate these past few months. Have you asked around to see if anyone you know has access to a thermal infrared camera? Heating season is the best time to go hunting down thermal issues with a thermal camera. Map them out, and plan an attack for summer, working from largest to smallest issues.
> 
> Having heated my Maine hot water for showers for an entire summer using the oil fired boiler in my basement, I'd take your old electric water heater over $3.25/gallon #2 heating oil. However, I'm still going to build a pre-heat tank powered by SHW, before I install a tankless electric.


The current net metering in Maine doesn't help the consumer. Basically the power company buys it from you at the cheapest and makes you buy it from them when you need it most. You can only heat with solar for November and December here since the balance resets for January, then you are back to buying what you don't produce instead of using the surplus from the summer like most other places. It's not as bad as some places I guess. 

We have considered electric tank less, but I haven't seen a lot of positive reviews. LP seems like a safe bet, but we shouldn't even use it anyway if the solar water heater works.


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## Where2 (Apr 11, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> The current net metering in Maine doesn't help the consumer. Basically the power company buys it from you at the cheapest and makes you buy it from them when you need it most. You can only heat with solar for November and December here since the balance resets for January, then you are back to buying what you don't produce instead of using the surplus from the summer like most other places. It's not as bad as some places I guess.


I thought you weren't intending to rely 100% on electric as your primary heat source? If that's the case, then an air source heat pump for the shoulder seasons has a far higher coefficient of performance than straight electric resistance heat, and works in the shoulder seasons. 

Randomly picking Machias, ME as being somewhat close to you. Choosing a 5kW array, on a fixed open mount, facing due south, with a 45 degree tilt, you could collect approximately 6,600kWh/yr. (acording to the NREL PVWatts calculator)
January=468kWh
February=531kWh
March=634kWh
April=648kWh
May=627kWh
June=603kWh
July=628kWh
August=663kWh
September=607kWh
October=490kWh
November=389kWh
December=380kWh

It may not make your power bill "go away", but it might be the solution you were looking for where your power bill is much more predictable from month to month. My 4.4kW array in South Florida didn't make my power bill go away, but my most expensive electric bill in the last 12 months was $80, in an all electric house where we run the A/C 10 months out of the year and use our electric dryer without hesitation. All my co-workers have multiple three figure electric bills each year. My array keeps me in the lowest price tier my power company offers. This month, my bill is predicted to be $48. When I get the additional 5.6kW pallet of panels (in my garage) racked and connected in the backyard, I'll have an $8/mo electric bill with rolling surplus credits. 

The offer I received in my email today had 305W (60 cell) panels for $0.49/W, or 375W (72 cell) panels for $0.47/W. Yes, you need more than panels, but it's not as complicated as an off grid system.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 12, 2019)

Where2 said:


> I thought you weren't intending to rely 100% on electric as your primary heat source? If that's the case, then an air source heat pump for the shoulder seasons has a far higher coefficient of performance than straight electric resistance heat, and works in the shoulder seasons.
> 
> Randomly picking Machias, ME as being somewhat close to you. Choosing a 5kW array, on a fixed open mount, facing due south, with a 45 degree tilt, you could collect approximately 6,600kWh/yr. (acording to the NREL PVWatts calculator)
> January=468kWh
> ...


I rarely use electric for heat at all, I was just describing how the system doesn't work for most folks and benefits Emera the most.


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## semipro (Apr 12, 2019)

maple1 said:


> If your water heater is that old, I would replace it ASAP with a new one of same type. Who knows what kind of crud buildup is on the inside & on the elements, and it is on way borrowed time as far as suddenly springing a leak. At likely the very worst time.


I believe a lot of electrical resistance tank water heaters end up in landfills unnecessarily.  They are much easier to maintain and service than they are to replace.  If they are cleaned out occasionally and a good sacrificial anode is maintained they will last a long time.  I have one going on 30+ years and we have really soft water.  I remove the lower heating element and drain valve every few years, clean out the minerals, and check the anode condition.  The capacity decreases as the minerals build up in the bottom of the tank but the electrical efficiency is unaffected.


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## wilsoncm1 (Apr 18, 2019)

Have you looked at Sol-Ark inverters?  There is a feature where you sell all the extra power not going to your critical loads panel back to the main panel.  Also a smart load feature where you can turn extra juice into hot water.  All without a silly net meter or your power company even knowing about it.


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## peakbagger (Apr 18, 2019)

wilsoncm1 said:


> Have you looked at Sol-Ark inverters?  There is a feature where you sell all the extra power not going to your critical loads panel back to the main panel.  Also a smart load feature where you can turn extra juice into hot water.  All without a silly net meter or your power company even knowing about it.


 
Sol Ark along with several other companies offer hybrid battery inverters. They can be legal but the statement about "your power company even knowing about it" is incorrect. If the system is connected to the utility it has to be legally interconnected with the grid and that means the utility must be notified and approve the interconnection and the means or interconnection which in most cases is UL 1741 (or 1741 SA) inverter. If they do not approve the interconnection then they have the right to disconnect the service. There are many fleabay type inverters and various websites that advertise plug and play inverters that do not need utility approval but they are illegal in the US and potentially hazardous to the homeowner. . 

That said there is no issue if someone elects to run an isolated microgrid isolated from the power grid. That is perfectly legal and hybrid inverters do allow a lot of local load management by using the batteries to offset loads to times when there is generation, this is what every off grid system hopefully does . They even control diversion loads which can be a hot water heater. The only issue is if the system is capable of being automatically or manually connected to the grid. If this is the case it has to have grid approval and that means an interconnect agreement and approval. Once connected to the grid its up to the owner if they elect to sell back to the grid or heat hot water. 

The fundamental problem is in the northern US solar generation is maximum in the summer and demand is usually maximum in the winter when there is far less generation. There currently is no commercial or economically viable way of storing excess power for months, when that changes it will radically change the power market.


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## wilsoncm1 (Apr 18, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> Sol Ark along with several other companies offer hybrid battery inverters. They can be legal but the statement about "your power company even knowing about it" is incorrect. If the system is connected to the utility it has to be legally interconnected with the grid and that means the utility must be notified and approve the interconnection and the means or interconnection which in most cases is UL 1741 (or 1741 SA) inverter. If they do not approve the interconnection then they have the right to disconnect the service. There are many fleabay type inverters and various websites that advertise plug and play inverters that do not need utility approval but they are illegal in the US and potentially hazardous to the homeowner. .
> 
> That said there is no issue if someone elects to run an isolated microgrid isolated from the power grid. That is perfectly legal and hybrid inverters do allow a lot of local load management by using the batteries to offset loads to times when there is generation, this is what every off grid system hopefully does . They even control diversion loads which can be a hot water heater. The only issue is if the system is capable of being automatically or manually connected to the grid. If this is the case it has to have grid approval and that means an interconnect agreement and approval. Once connected to the grid its up to the owner if they elect to sell back to the grid or heat hot water.
> 
> The fundamental problem is in the northern US solar generation is maximum in the summer and demand is usually maximum in the winter when there is far less generation. There currently is no commercial or economically viable way of storing excess power for months, when that changes it will radically change the power market.



Interesting take.  The 8K is UL1741 and UL1741SA compliant.  That being said, if I setup my inverter to not sell to home, I'm not feeding the grid.  Therefore I don't need to inform the utility.  It would be no different than having a stand by genset with xfer gear.  I wasn't required to tell Duke that I installed one.


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## peakbagger (Apr 18, 2019)

I replied to clarify that in the case where your inverter was "selling" power to your main panel you needed to describe if the main panel was connected to the grid or if it wasn't. If your main panel  is connected to the grid then yes you need an interconnect. If on the other hand that you are set up as a microgrid isolated from the grid I agree entirely, no need to get the utility involved. If on the other hand your hybrid inverter is connected to the grid and the only thing preventing it from it exporting to the grid is a software setting I expect you are in very fuzzy gray place with respect to the legality that varies by utility.

It comes down to system size. Most utilities have special "short form" interconnect rules for small generation like PV and usually default to a UL 1741 inverter. Usually the system size is capped at 10 KW or less so they don't have to go through a full interconnect process which requires a lot more steps and usually utility witness testing. The 1741 inverter does not deal with the economics,  it deals with safety and its set up that unless the grid is functioning and within a tight set of specs the inverter can not export to the grid. This protects their system and the linesman working on it. The utility gets around the economics part most of the time by installing a one way meter that treats all power flow as a purchase. If you want to export power through the meter the utility will gladly let you export as much as you wish as it will all be treated as extra power your are buying. Most utilities are now installing dual channel meters that differentiate import versus export but unless its a legit install, even though they are metering export and import they just add it up and bill it as import. Happens all the time when folks have their PV systems legally turned on, they run a couple of billing cycles and see their power usage go up and usually it turns out that the billing department did not switch the billing software to net metering.

In the early days of grid tied PV systems the installer had to install a manual disconnect switch adjacent to the meter so that the utility could lock the system off as they didn't trust the 1741 inverters. I have one of them on my system. The utility sometimes put one of their locks on the disconnect until they witnessed the inverter being tested.

With respect to a generator with an automated transfer switch (ATS) generally the ATS is open before close, not close before open. If the ATS detects lack of grid, the transfer switch breaks the connection with the grid and then starts the generator and waits until the voltage and frequency is within a set range before the lights turn back on. Usually the system stays islanded until its manually switched back to the grid. When the manual transfer is done, the generator connection is opened and then the grid connection is closed. At no time is the generator directly connected to grid. If someone wants bumpless transfer between the grid and the generator so the lights don't flicker it gets lot more interesting and it definitely will need an interconnect permit. Of late we budget about $300,000 for the interconnect process on big generators. On those projects the utility requires the capability to remotely dump the generator off the grid using very expensive electronic boxes on dedicated phone circuits. 

Note 1741SA is a recent addition to the 1741 standard and opens up new can of worms as it has the brains to do grid support. I think most utilities have these  functions turned off but the capability is there for the inverter to ride through grid conditions that a regular 1741 inverter will disconnect. The utility could put in place a system to even tell the inverter to inject voltage and or VARS into the grid to stabilize it. Someone with a hybrid inverter and batteries may end up getting paid a premium to pump power into the grid in certain conditions.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 18, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> I replied to clarify that in the case where your inverter was "selling" power to your main panel you needed to describe if the main panel was connected to the grid or if it wasn't. If your main panel  is connected to the grid then yes you need an interconnect. If on the other hand that you are set up as a microgrid isolated from the grid I agree entirely, no need to get the utility involved. If on the other hand your hybrid inverter is connected to the grid and the only thing preventing it from it exporting to the grid is a software setting I expect you are in very fuzzy gray place with respect to the legality that varies by utility.
> 
> It comes down to system size. Most utilities have special "short form" interconnect rules for small generation like PV and usually default to a UL 1741 inverter. Usually the system size is capped at 10 KW or less so they don't have to go through a full interconnect process which requires a lot more steps and usually utility witness testing. The 1741 inverter does not deal with the economics,  it deals with safety and its set up that unless the grid is functioning and within a tight set of specs the inverter can not export to the grid. This protects their system and the linesman working on it. The utility gets around the economics part most of the time by installing a one way meter that treats all power flow as a purchase. If you want to export power through the meter the utility will gladly let you export as much as you wish as it will all be treated as extra power your are buying. Most utilities are now installing dual channel meters that differentiate import versus export but unless its a legit install, even though they are metering export and import they just add it up and bill it as import. Happens all the time when folks have their PV systems legally turned on, they run a couple of billing cycles and see their power usage go up and usually it turns out that the billing department did not switch the billing software to net metering.
> 
> ...



I am more educated with every post you write


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## Ashful (Apr 19, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> . If someone wants bumpless transfer between the grid and the generator so the lights don't flicker it gets lot more interesting and it definitely will need an interconnect permit.



Don’t most just use a UPS for this?  Two past labs where I’ve worked have drawn all power thru big 3-phase UPS systems that cover the 30 seconds from loss of power until automatic generator is online.


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## peakbagger (Apr 19, 2019)

As long as its behind the meter a UPS can give bump less transfer usually for a specific circuit. The difference is that when its a manufactured system the manufacturer has to go through some sort of third party certification that approximates an interconnect to prove the power can only go in one direction. I expect that is how the home battery folks are getting around an individualized interconnect process it also may be the approach used by hybrid inverters.


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## begreen (Apr 19, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Don’t most just use a UPS for this?  Two past labs where I’ve worked have drawn all power thru big 3-phase UPS systems that cover the 30 seconds from loss of power until automatic generator is online.


Some do, some don't. Our corporate offices in India had giant UPSs wired to essential systems. This was due to frequent power outages. Their office building in Seattle did not, probably due to the rarity of outages. I can only remember 2 outages in the 15 yrs at that office. The India office outages could be  2-3 times a week.


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## georgepds (Apr 19, 2019)

Back when I was a kid , the local telephone exchange had three backups: two generators and a battery banks


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## wilsoncm1 (Apr 21, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> I replied to clarify that in the case where your inverter was "selling" power to your main panel you needed to describe if the main panel was connected to the grid or if it wasn't. If your main panel  is connected to the grid then yes you need an interconnect. If on the other hand that you are set up as a microgrid isolated from the grid I agree entirely, no need to get the utility involved. If on the other hand your hybrid inverter is connected to the grid and the only thing preventing it from it exporting to the grid is a software setting I expect you are in very fuzzy gray place with respect to the legality that varies by utility.
> 
> It comes down to system size. Most utilities have special "short form" interconnect rules for small generation like PV and usually default to a UL 1741 inverter. Usually the system size is capped at 10 KW or less so they don't have to go through a full interconnect process which requires a lot more steps and usually utility witness testing. The 1741 inverter does not deal with the economics,  it deals with safety and its set up that unless the grid is functioning and within a tight set of specs the inverter can not export to the grid. This protects their system and the linesman working on it. The utility gets around the economics part most of the time by installing a one way meter that treats all power flow as a purchase. If you want to export power through the meter the utility will gladly let you export as much as you wish as it will all be treated as extra power your are buying. Most utilities are now installing dual channel meters that differentiate import versus export but unless its a legit install, even though they are metering export and import they just add it up and bill it as import. Happens all the time when folks have their PV systems legally turned on, they run a couple of billing cycles and see their power usage go up and usually it turns out that the billing department did not switch the billing software to net metering.
> 
> ...



That's all well and good, but it doesn't benefit me in any way to pay Duke the ~$500 for their permission to install a solar system and their net metering agreement.  Their track record with net metering and small scale production is abysmal. They already tried to force us into a sell all/buy all agreement.  Which basically forbids households from using their own power first.  You are forced to sell all of your power to Duke at dirt cheap rates then buy it back at regular price.  They already have some of the highest rates in the country.   Nope.  Thank You very much though!


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## SpaceBus (Apr 21, 2019)

wilsoncm1 said:


> That's all well and good, but it doesn't benefit me in any way to pay Duke the ~$500 for their permission to install a solar system and their net metering agreement.  Their track record with net metering and small scale production is abysmal. They already tried to force us into a sell all/buy all agreement.  Which basically forbids households from using their own power first.  You are forced to sell all of your power to Duke at dirt cheap rates then buy it back at regular price.  They already have some of the highest rates in the country.   Nope.  Thank You very much though!



What I would give for Duke power rates now...


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## sloeffle (Apr 24, 2019)

@peakbagger do you work in the power industry ? As @SpaceBus said, with every post you write I become more educated.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 24, 2019)

I just signed an estimate for my new pole. It won't cost more than $2,500, about $500 less if they don't have to drill through ledge. The backhoe is on order and we are going to try and bury the line from the pole since the power is being disconnected anyway. Next step is to get in touch with an electrician and find out what conduit and cable we need.


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## thewoodlands (Apr 24, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I just signed an estimate for my new pole. It won't cost more than $2,500, about $500 less if they don't have to drill through ledge. The backhoe is on order and we are going to try and bury the line from the pole since the power is being disconnected anyway. Next step is to get in touch with an electrician and find out what conduit and cable we need.


Don't break your bucket.


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## peakbagger (Apr 24, 2019)

sloeffle said:


> @peakbagger do you work in the power industry ? As @SpaceBus said, with every post you write I become more educated.



Power industry is kind of broad, I got my start with the pulp and paper industry in a mill with a fairly large power system including 33 MW of hydro plus a couple of steam turbines doing mostly environmental and power projects then went "green" in VT with a company that did early microgrids and renewables until Wall Street ruined them, then went into biomass electric power plants including converting a coal fired power plant to biomass down in Space Bus's old backyard (Kenansville NC). It ran well but Duke pulled a fast one and blackmailed NC into paying them renewable power rates to build a gas fired power plant to shut down some pretty nasty coal plants so the biomass plant lost their power contract and of late been doing combined heat and power plants which are designed to be able to run off grid if need be. Along the way I learned to DIY PV grid tied systems early in the game before the federal rebate and rigged up my wood boiler system out of leftovers and a free used boiler (I did buy the AST storage tank new).  I also have helped with some large power plant performance testing on occasion on plants like this one http://gorewaypowerstation.com/. 

Somewhere in the biomass phase I was project manager for this hospital project not that far away from my home http://www.ensyn.com/heating-fuels.html I was not one of the folks in the picture cutting the ribbon as that was the "praise and honor for the non participants" phase  .http://wikibon.org/blog/this-project-management-joke-is-often-reality/. That was an interesting project as the company that made the project knew how to make it in a factory but had never done a permanent installation. There was no NFPA classification on the fuel as it was so new so we didn't have a official code or standard to work from and had to make things up as we went along. We lucked out that despite it being a replacement for heating oil it doesn't meet the legal definition of oil so it cut out a lot of paperwork. I think Bates college in Lewiston Maine uses it also but it hasn't caught on with oil so cheap and no carbon tax.  Neat stuff, smells like a barbeque restaurant when they unload it even with vapor collection and activated carbon filters. its made with the same process that they make liquid smoke type flavoring agents with.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 24, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> Power industry is kind of broad, I got my start with the pulp and paper industry in a mill with a fairly large power system including 33 MW of hydro plus a couple of steam turbines doing mostly environmental and power projects then went "green" in VT with a company that did early microgrids and renewables until Wall Street ruined them, then went into biomass electric power plants including converting a coal fired power plant to biomass down in Space Bus's old backyard (Kenansville NC). It ran well but Duke pulled a fast one and blackmailed NC into paying them renewable power rates to build a gas fired power plant to shut down some pretty nasty coal plants so the biomass plant lost their power contract and of late been doing combined heat and power plants which are designed to be able to run off grid if need be. Along the way I learned to DIY PV grid tied systems early in the game before the federal rebate and rigged up my wood boiler system out of leftovers and a free used boiler (I did buy the AST storage tank new).  I also have helped with some large power plant performance testing on occasion on plants like this one http://gorewaypowerstation.com/.
> 
> Somewhere in the biomass phase I was project manager for this hospital project not that far away from my home http://www.ensyn.com/heating-fuels.html I was not one of the folks in the picture cutting the ribbon as that was the "praise and honor for the non participants" phase  .http://wikibon.org/blog/this-project-management-joke-is-often-reality/. That was an interesting project as the company that made the project knew how to make it in a factory but had never done a permanent installation. There was no NFPA classification on the fuel as it was so new so we didn't have a official code or standard to work from and had to make things up as we went along. We lucked out that despite it being a replacement for heating oil it doesn't meet the legal definition of oil so it cut out a lot of paperwork. I think Bates college in Lewiston Maine uses it also but it hasn't caught on with oil so cheap and no carbon tax.  Neat stuff, smells like a barbeque restaurant when they unload it even with vapor collection and activated carbon filters. its made with the same process that they make liquid smoke type flavoring agents with.




You forgot to mention the Mog! I had never heard of "renewable fuel oil" before, so I looked it up. RFO sounds like it comes from the same fractioning process that creates poly precursors from biomass. Is it really more efficient than simply burning dried wood? It sounds like you can get 75% of the weight of dried wood (I'm assuming 20% moisture or less) which would make the efficiency lower than using a gassification wood boiler.  Perhaps the benefit is a liquid fuel instead of a solid fuel? Is it basically condensed wood gas? Sorry for all of the questions, I've just never encountered something like this before.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 24, 2019)

nevermind, I found their video. This is really neat stuff!


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## peakbagger (Apr 24, 2019)

Short answer is wood is made from mostly two major components cellulose and lignin with some compounds that are given off while heating..Cellulose are the fibers that give wood its tensile strength and lignin is the glue that makes the fibers stiff. RFO is basically the lignin portion of the wood which has a higher Btu content than the cellulose. The lignin is then further processed to get RFO and the cellulose is burned to supply heat to drive the process. Its the opposite of a pulp mill. In a pulp mill they keep the cellulose and burn the lignin in a recovery boiler. Raw lignin is hard stuff to deal with, it turns into something that looks like taffy and eventually glass at high concentrations unless kept hot. If you have heard or seen glazed creosote you have seen crude lignin with the volatiles driven off. The problem is when its heated high enough it turns into a liquid and burns hot. My guess is its easier to deal with a liquid than a solid plus there is tax incentive called a RIN that can be sold for qualified liquid fuels.It replaces #4 fuel oil and requires special materials  so I dont see it even being used for home use.


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