# Happy days, new windows to be installed



## Highbeam (Apr 22, 2008)

I moved into my 1963 built farmhouse about 1.5 years ago mainly because of lot size and location. It has no floor insulation above the crawlspace, R-5 insulation in the 2x4 walls, and less than 3" of fiberglass batt insulation in the attic. Single pane aluminum framed windows that rattle in their frames letting noise and drafts right through not to mention condensation on the panes.

Safety first: added smoke detectors for all rooms including my 2&5;YO girl's rooms. Replaced the electrical panel as the Zinsco panel already had arcing and flickering circuits. Lined and then eliminated the structurally unstable masonry chimney. GFCI outlets in bathrooms and wet areas. 

Damage causers second: The metal roof was leaking in places so popped on a comp roof. The crawlspace was flooded in the winter with up to 8" of standing cold water. Major drain tile, downspout, and outside grading project took most of the summer. Also regraded a "wet" area in the back pasture so that nice thin bladed grass can grow, planted 5 fruit trees. 

Efficiency next: Added programmable thermostats to the wall heaters in the kid's rooms since those rooms cool off quickly at night and little girls need to be warm. Replaced front door with prehung fiberglass estar door from HD. Replaced old style washer/dryer with new e-star horizontal units when the old washer died. Added Heritage freestanding stove in place of old Lopi insert and sold the EPA Lopi on Craigslist.

The first really big efficiency improvement will be the window swap which we pulled the trigger on today. We got several bids from decent contractors including those on the power company's referral list. Bids ranged in price from 2600-4400 for the same job with the same new windows. We chose the bid that wasn't lowest but was from a good man/company. The chosen windows are Certainteed brand low-e, argon filled, superspacer (the little spacer between the panes) double pane vinyl windows. The install should take about 3/4 of a day for their crew.

We are really excited to eliminate the cold, drafts, and noise from the old windows as well as taking a first step towards turning this old house into a thermos. The next step will be blown in glass insulation for the attic once I get the little soffit air gap keepers installed and the bathroom fans installed.


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## Redox (Apr 23, 2008)

Ain't it fun?  Whoever said a house wasn't an investment?

We bought our last two houses at forclosure prices and each one has been an experience.  New windows were first on my list when we bought the current house.  Our first house had steel framed windows that leaked so badly, the shrink film would blow off when the wind blew.  When I added a humidifier, they iced over and we don't live in a harsh environment.  Replacement windows solved all of that.  I told my wife that I wasn't going to mess with the old windows when we moved.  They needed scraping and painting and I didn't feel like doing it.  I'm not sure how much they really save in fuel cost, but they sure do make the house feel warmer!  One thing you are going to notice is how much quieter they are.  Thunderstorms are less scary for the kids and you don't hear cars and lawnmowers and planes and sirens and...   

Sleep well!

Chris


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## Telco (Apr 23, 2008)

I'd suggest against the blow in fiberglass.  Discuss blown in cellulose with your insulator instead.  Blow in cellulose has a higher R rating per foot than fiberglass, and with little kiddies I think I'd rather have cellulose floating in the air than fiberglass fibers.  Not to mention, that when I had fiberglass blown into my own attic the insulator I used said that it was being discontinued with no new blow in fiberglass products available.  Said he was going to go all cellulose once his stock of fiberglass was used up, also said it would have been cheaper for me to boot.  Still, the 800 I paid to have a foot blown in on my approx 1900 sq ft attic was cheaper than I expected, and it did make a huge difference in my natural gas bill this winter.  That insulation will have paid for itself by the time I sell the house in about 2 years and head for smaller, greener pastures.


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## Highbeam (Apr 23, 2008)

Interesting thought on the glass vs. paper for insulation. I tend to prefer a product that doesn't mold, rot, settle, or provide food and habitat for rodents and bugs. I'm not too worried about living with fiberglass around my body as that's all I've ever worked with in any of my homes. Oh I suppose I did do a jippo insulation job above my garage with bales of cellulose insulation "blown" by hand about 6 years ago. It too was dusty but no doubt easier on my body than fiberglass dust. 

Our local guys seem to all blow fiberglass. Mountains of fluffy white fiberglass. I'm pretty excited about that too with the way that this house loses heat and the relatively high and short term return on investment.


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## Telco (Apr 23, 2008)

So cellulose isn't treated to be used as insulation?  I asked the guy about those things, said that the stuff is treated to prevent fire and mold.  I can see mice and insects living in anything whether they can eat it or not.  

The stuff in my place is the Pink Panther stuff.  Mountains of pink in the attic.  

The white stuff, isn't that the fiberglass that is supposed to be made in a way that it doesn't embed itself in the skin when handled?  If so, that would be way better than the pink stuff.


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## DiscoInferno (Apr 23, 2008)

I assure you that rodents are perfectly happy to tear apart fiberglass insulation and nest in it.  I've seen the pieces, and heard them in the walls.


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## ericjeeper (Apr 27, 2008)

Glad to see someone tightening their Envelope.. new windows will make a huge improvement. I am replacing six of mine next week. Going from double pane with Argon to triple pane with Krypton gas. from an r4 to an r 10. Should make a great comfort improvement.


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## mikeyny (Apr 27, 2008)

I have been in the cellulose insulation biz for many yrs. Ask me a question about it and I will give you the facts. 
#1 If you are going green, fiberglass is not what you want. Fiberglass requires an enormous amount of energy to produce. just think about what it takes to melt glass.
#2 Fiberglass does not help with air infiltration. Air goes right thru it.
#3  When cellulose is installed at high density with the new equipment designed to blow it into place it will not settle in your walls. Cellulose blown at high density will 
       seek out and plug every little crack and crevice sealing out the cold air.
#4   Cellulose can be installed in your entire home for quite a bit less than fiberglass.

        In my area we can blow cellulose into an average attic for almost what you would be able to buy the fiberglass for not to mention the labor to install. 
        If you have any questions, ask me. If you are serious I could give you my phone # and give you first hand info.


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## TMonter (Apr 28, 2008)

I'd take a serious look at not getting the argon filled panes and going with air filled ones. Argon filled panes generally cost a lot more and in 3-6 years the argon leaks out and you have the same insulating factor as the cheaper air filled pane. Also if you can go wood frame or fiberglass frame they are better than vinyl as the frame expands at close to or the same rate as glass. Of course the inprovement over aluminum or single pane windows will be huge no matter what you install.

I just did two low-e vinyl Pellas for about $140 each (3' x 5') and replaced aluminum. The rooms are much warmer at night and cooler during the day and much quieter.

Make sure your contractor seals the top and sides of the windows with flexible foam to prevent leak-by.


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## Highbeam (Apr 28, 2008)

Wow, this is great.

On the cellulose issue:

1) Not going green on purpose, but a nice side effect of efficiency improvements.  
2) Air infiltration is prevented by barriers to air infiltration like vapor barriers, painted on or plastic. I don't intend to rely on the insulation for this. Oh and I will be leaving my foil faced batts in place.
3) Do all installers use this high density equipment? Doesn't sound like it. The whole "seek out and plug" deal sounds like settling. I'm not real sure that I want to mess with the walls anyway though.
4) Cash talks so it will be worth getting bids for each. I didn't realize that there was such a price delta, usually labor is the big cost. 

Does the cellulose need to be thicker or thinner for a given R value than glass?

The windows that have the lowE and fancy spacer come with the argon. I didn't seek it out since I am more concerned with the dead air space, LowE, and nice tight seals. The contractors also mentioned that the argon will all leak out eventually. I am a vinyl guy on windows, I do like fiberglass for doors though. My new front door is fiberglass.

Heat loss at night after the fire dies out is a major problem that I hope to improve with these efficiency improvements. If I was a pellet burner then it might not be such a big deal. When those back bedrooms cool off the electric heaters come on fairly often at about 1700 watts.


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## SE Iowa (Apr 28, 2008)

EricJeepers, What kind of windows are you getting? How much $? I can not seem to find R10 windows out here. Only big name brand companies like pella, anderson, crestline, wenco etc.


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## Telco (Apr 29, 2008)

For a given R value, you will need more inches of fiberglass than cellulose, if I remember what the guy told me right 18 inches of fiberglass is the same as 10 or 11 inches of cellulose.  Since this house is a temporary for me I just threw more of the same in, I now have 18 inches up there, but when I build the next one if I need a loose fill insulation it'll be cellulose.


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## Highbeam (Apr 29, 2008)

Honestly, the thinner total lift of blown in stuff the better. I have a habit of making changes with electrical, communications, venting, etc. and having 18" of fluff up there is a bother. I suppose the cellulose vs. glass issue is a whole nother thread. I imagine there are two sides to the argument. 

The old windows were really loud last night, either that or the frogs were extra loud. I could really hear it almost like the window was open.


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## Telco (Apr 29, 2008)

If you are always into the wiring in the attic, I'd go cellulose over fiberglass regardless then.  Fiberglass is just that, fibrous glass, and when you muck about with it the fibers go airborne and can float a long ways off.  I'd much rather have me and the family breathe in chemically treated wood dust that will be caught by the mucous lining and expelled than glass fibers that will become embedded into the walls of the respiratory system to stay.  Not to mention, you can get a "glass rash" as the fibers embed themselves in the skin.  Fiberglass is a pretty effective insulation, and I used to like it, but the negatives are just too much for me to ever use again.  That's just me though, I know there are folks out there that have no problems with being in fiberglass.


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## Highbeam (Apr 29, 2008)

Pook: Those questions are certainly specific to the manufacturer and the installer. These retrofit windows should not leave a very large gap to the roughed in opening and if within specs for the caulking then caulking will work but if more than the max gap then the non-expanding foam will be used. I have never installed retrofit windows so I will be learning as I watch. The installers are still some 4 weeks out. I have put in new windows, retrofit doors, and new doors with shims and foam and such but not retro windows so I'm not even sure if they use shims. 

In doing electrical work I have often layed my sweaty head down on fiberglass while fishing wires down walls and certainly inhaled a bit of fiber. I too would rather inhale paper dust. I may be starting to lean towards this cellulose stuff. Aren't all "ose" chemicals actually sugars? Lactose, sucrose, dextrose, etc. Sugar is a food source no? Certainly an energy source for organic things like bugs and mold.


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Apr 30, 2008)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> I too would rather inhale paper dust. I may be starting to lean towards this cellulose stuff. Aren't all "ose" chemicals actually sugars? Lactose, sucrose, dextrose, etc. Sugar is a food source no? Certainly an energy source for organic things like bugs and mold.



Yes, cellulose is a sugar.  A complex one (too complex for our digestive systems to break down, for example).  Lots of bugs can eat it.  So the insulation is treated with pesticides, typically.  The exact sort used by a specific manufacturer might be a reason to choose one product over another...

Joe


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## ericjeeper (May 1, 2008)

Biomass grower said:
			
		

> EricJeepers, What kind of windows are you getting? How much $? I can not seem to find R10 windows out here. Only big name brand companies like pella, anderson, crestline, wenco etc.


 Sorry I have been away for a while..
 There are several leading manufacturers of high end glass packs.. And No Pella and Anderson are not among the list. The best R value they offer is roughly an r4. They use only double pane with argon and one layer of lo-e.
   Krypton gas is 30% more efficient than argon (denser). 
 The windows I sell are made in Grabill Indiana by a company called Home Guard., Their glass packs come from AFG in Ohio. three panes of glass, each outer piece having soft coat lo-e applied. The center piece is clear glass and they are filled to 95% with Krypton gas.
 If anyone is even thinking of replacing with just clear glass and no gas, why bother? Virtually no energy savings unless their old ones are real air leakers.
  Someone said the gas will leak out within a few years???????? Most glass assemblies use a urethane glue around the edges That stuff is very sticky. Lets take this as an example.When a tire is mounted to a wheel There is not a bit of glue or adhesive used. just rubber to usually dirty rusty nasty corroded wheel. They usually hold the initial 32 psi of air for many years.
 So why is a clean piece of glass and a rubber spacer with sticky urethane glue not going to seal in less than one psi of krypton or argon?
 If it does leak out moisture will show between the glass and the lifetime guarantee will kick in and the manufacturer will send you new sash free.
 Most people will not discuss pricing. Fortunately I am not ashamed of my asking price for an Installed white Triple glazed R-10 double hung. I sell them installed, insulated around the perimeter with fiberglass insulation caulked on the inside, PVC coated aluminum wrap on the exterior caulked with a high quality silicone caulk. Lifetime guarantee through the manufacturer for 500.00 per window.
  I am a small business my best advertising is word of mouth so I do my customers a great job and they tell their friends.
Here is the link to my manufactures web site.  http://home-guard.net/


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## TMonter (May 1, 2008)

R-value when rating windows is meaningless IMO. There is more gain to how the window is installed and the longevity of the window that trying to purchase super insulated windows. It's inevitable that the gas will leak out between panes which is why I've always found low-e ventilated panes to be the best windows especially for longevity. Sure a filled pane can have a high r-value, but most people would be far better installing cellular shades in the window and getting a cheaper ventilated model for total r-value.



> If anyone is even thinking of replacing with just clear glass and no gas, why bother? Virtually no energy savings unless their old ones are real air leakers.



I disagree, if the old windows are single pane or aluminum frame new windows properly sealed with no gas and no coating still will be a huge improvement over the old windows.

I prefer a window I never have to replace to a window with a higher R-value that will have to be replaced.



> Someone said the gas will leak out within a few years???????? Most glass assemblies use a urethane glue around the edges That stuff is very sticky. Lets take this as an example.When a tire is mounted to a wheel There is not a bit of glue or adhesive used. just rubber to usually dirty rusty nasty corroded wheel. They usually hold the initial 32 psi of air for many years.



Actually tires do not. Given a few months tires can lose up to 10PSI within a relatively short time frame even without leaks. Whether urethane is sticky or not is not the issue, thermal expansion of the panes in relation to the frame and seal is.

Also if you're looking for the best positive seal, casements are the way to go as their seals last the longest and they have the most positive seal compared to other designs.


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## ericjeeper (May 1, 2008)

Sure casements seal better. But They are a much more expensive unit to begin with.
 Also a casement does not fit every design.


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