# 2013 VC Burning Thread



## jharkin (Oct 10, 2013)

I'm home sick from work, its 50 out and my wife took the kids for a ride so I couldn't resist doing the first small break in fire. Just a half SC and kindling this time. Hearing lots of snap crackle, maybe buildup inside the cap falling, have to go up and check it before next fire.





Window fan is on high


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## jharkin (Oct 10, 2013)

Snap crackle went away after 5 minutes.  I added a couple small pieces to get the griddle temp just shy of 300 then let it burn out. Pipe temp barely broke 200, draft seemed suprisingly decent for a 50 degree day (thank you no more damper) but it did smoke out the front door when I opened up to add a piece.  Shouldn't do that once its get colder and I fire it hot.

It smells a bit funky in here but I dont see the new paint smoking off yet.  Going to be nasty on the next fire I bet when I try to get 'er up to 500.

maybe two window fans.....


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## Reckless (Oct 10, 2013)

jharkin said:


> Put in the secondary probe, cat temp probe, catalyst, catalyst acess panel, bolt in the side panels (checking the thermostat cable is clear this time), pace the lower fireback and hammer in the wedges, place the hood, replace the ash grate, and bolt in the andirons.
> 
> 
> View attachment 113760
> ...


 
The hood that covers the catalyst opening it looks like in pic 4 it is inside? Mine is on the outside... difference in models? Or is mine backwards LOL


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## jharkin (Oct 10, 2013)

Reckless said:


> The hood that covers the catalyst opening it looks like in pic 4 it is inside? Mine is on the outside... difference in models? Or is mine backwards LOL



Im not sure I follow you... what do you mean by inside / outside?  post a photo?


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## Reckless (Oct 11, 2013)

jharkin said:


> Im not sure I follow you... what do you mean by inside / outside?  post a photo?


 It was just the lighting on your picture. The hood looked like it was inside the fireback and I was like


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## jharkin (Oct 11, 2013)

Reckless said:


> It was just the lighting on your picture. The hood looked like it was inside the fireback and I was like



Ha.  Yeah I had a drop light clipped to the  griddle while i was working inside. It casts funny shadows.


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## jharkin (Oct 12, 2013)

Break in fire #2 kindling and two 4in splits. Just got to 400 griddle and 350 pipe.

Still the only thing I smell is the oil on the griddle cooking off. Prob won't start baking the paint till I push past 500???


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## jharkin (Oct 14, 2013)

Final break in fire today to cure the paint. 40f outside, 3 splits of extra extra dry stuff that's been in the indoor Woodbox all year.

Windows open, fan going. Got it up to 500 in under 30 minutes and the cat lit off like a freight train.

Now I have air at minimum and it settled in at 525 stove top, 1250 cat, 300 surface temp just a few inches up the pipe. A lite plume of white steam outside.

Paint fumes have been surprisingly minimal.


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## jharkin (Oct 14, 2013)

The thing I don't like is that I'm getting pretty good flame in the boxeven at low air. Usually it would go almost completely dark. All the gaskets seemed to pass the dollar test, and I can see with a mirror the primary is closed completely.

I'm trying to pass a match around looking for leaks, nothing yet.


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## jharkin (Oct 14, 2013)

More checks. I am seeing the expected change in flame intensity as I open and close the primary.  Maybe its just the super dry wood, having the windows open and the fact that the stoves air passages and flue are cleaner than they have ever been since I owned it?


Later this week I'll recheck every gasket again and go around looking at the seams some more.


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## jharkin (Nov 2, 2013)

Ive had some requests to show how the catalyst probe installs. 

- On the back of the stove you will see a sheet steel plug above the secondary intake. Pry it off with a screwdriver.
- Using a 1/4" drill bit held by hand, carefully twist it into the refractory to make a hole.
- Slide the probe in place as shown below.
- I wired the cable to a screw on the secondary cover just so it wouldn't move if I bumped it accidentally.


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## Excavator (Nov 3, 2013)

thanks for pic, I redid my 0028 encore last month. Had to replace the upper and lower fireback, refractory  and the cat. I also did the gaskets on ash pan door and front doors and griddle. Now I just have to do the digital monitor too feel better about what is going on.


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## jharkin (Nov 3, 2013)

*November 3, 2013*

Ok, yesterday I was outside in a t shirt, and even had to use sunscreen becuase the back of my neck flet like it was on fire!

Today its 40F with wind gusting to 20+ ... so....

First serious fire of the season!

I lit off at 11:38am with 1/4 SC, a couple pieces of kindling and 3 small splits
In 10 min it was blasting, I added a couple more larger splits
At 12:05pm the griddle read 550F so I shut the damper and in under a minute the cat lit off and climed through 1000F.


Right now we are cruising on a half load of wood at just under 1/4 open on the main air control with 550F griddle and 1600F cat.  Exhaust looks completely clean outside.

As soon as the living room gets up to 74 or so I'll shut 'er down and probably reload after dinner.


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## jharkin (Nov 3, 2013)

And here we air with the air fully closed. 600 griddle, 1500 cat.

A lot more flame in the box than I remember last year with air closed, but maybe that's due to the stove breathing better and very dry wood?  All the gaskets seem good.

Upside is that the glass is staying cleaner than ever.


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## Excavator (Nov 3, 2013)

JHarkin, I just odered the condar monitor. I feel that it is a must have. I reloaded my encore 2 hours ago and I have surface and probe thermometer in the T at the back of stove. I always seem to get the cat hotter then I should as the surface slowly keeeps climbing to 650 or so and the pipe thermometer is at 1100. I suspect the cat his hitting higher temps earlier than I think. It is more controllable now with new gaskets and the new fireback kit installed but with the new monitor on its way I will be better off


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## jharkin (Nov 3, 2013)

3 hours later.... Sun came out and outdoor temp went up to 45f. Stove is down to coals but still about 450 griddle.  The living room is an oven... 79f. Since its not looking as cold as predicted I'll let it burn out.


Not bad performance for the statup wood and a couple medium splits... I still wonder if its breathing too well and will check all the gaskets and the adjustment of the primary air one more time once its cool.

The glass stayed completely clean and for the first time ever I saw nothing but heat waves out of the stack... I'm calling this rebuild a success


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## begreen (Nov 3, 2013)

That has to be very satisfying. Nice work.


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## jharkin (Nov 3, 2013)

begreen said:


> That has to be very satisfying. Nice work.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks BeGreen.  In a way I feel like 4 years of advice I got here at hearth all finally came together today... And now I truly "get it"


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## begreen (Nov 3, 2013)

Rebuilding a VC stove is not trivial. There's a lot happening in those stoves.


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## jharkin (Nov 4, 2013)

That's quite true BG.  I hope Ive been able to give a little back to Hearth by documenting everything I did and this helps out other VC owners get the best from this stove.  If yesterdays burn is any indication this thing can be a *wonderful *heater when properly maintained.

Anyway, I went over everything and addressed a couple items.


The primary air door is adjusted OK as is, but there was some soot and dust built up behind it, probably junk that fell down during the rebuild in spite of my stuffing the manifolds with rags.  So I brushed it out with a small pipe cleaner and vacuumed it clean, now when I close the air I can hear the click of the door fully closing.
The secondary air thermostat was adjusted a bit too far open cold I believe. The door was cracked open almost 3/8" on the right. So I turned it down to be about 1/4" open cold.
Dollar test on the front doors showed a couple spots along the bottom left where the bill wouldn't completely rip.  I also noticed there was a slight burr on the sheetmetal catch for the latch so the handle would hit that and stop before it went as snug as possible.  So I filed off the burr and turned the handle out one turn to tighten it up.
Everything else looks good.  Ash pan gasket passes with flying colors. Griddle is ok  (never perfect) Bypass damper ok.

I'm not surprised, and was expecting to have to do some tweaking adjusting after the first fire.  Which is why I didn't go right to a full load or leave the house.  I want to do at least one more  full load test burn on a cold day to make sure it will control better and wont overfire and then I'll be comfortable leaving it.


Ive never seen the firebox and glass so clean after a decent load burned low.  If it is even close to this clean after the first overnight burn I try I will truly be impressed!


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## Reckless (Nov 4, 2013)

jharkin said:


> The secondary air thermostat was adjusted a bit too far open cold I believe. The door was cracked open almost 3/8" on the right. So I turned it down to be about 1/4" open cold.


 How can you adjust the secondary? My stove is running good on normal fuel (600 griddle and 12-1400 cat) but once I put in my 15% maple it takes off on me (800 gt and 1700cat). I am now wondering if its not my gaskets but the secondary that isn't closing properly............. changing too many things at one time can add to the confusion 

Like you, now that I adjusted my airwash the glass stays completely clean! Im glad you are up and on your way Jeremy just in time for this small cold front (supposed to be 65 again here on thurs just in time to cool it down and crawl behind  )


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## jharkin (Nov 4, 2013)

Reckless said:


> How can you adjust the secondary? My stove is running good on normal fuel (600 griddle and 12-1400 cat) but once I put in my 15% maple it takes off on me (800 gt and 1700cat). I am now wondering if its not my gaskets but the secondary that isn't closing properly............. changing too many things at one time can add to the confusion
> 
> Like you, now that I adjusted my airwash the glass stays completely clean! Im glad you are up and on your way Jeremy just in time for this small cold front (supposed to be 65 again here on thurs just in time to cool it down and crawl behind  )




Take that metal cover off the back and this is what you see. You can adjust the gap by turning the small screw in the center of the bimetallic coil with a flat blade screwdriver.




Image (c)  Vermont castings  - Defiant Encore 0028 / 2140 Service manual


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## Toploader (Nov 4, 2013)

Thanks for the great job of documenting this rebuild, very interesting thread.
I've always had a soft spot for VC stoves, I had an original Defiant and a resolute and I've spent lots of time around a vigilant and your model of Encore. I recently seriously considered a Flexburn Encore but having a friend with a new defiant that both backpuffs and overfires along with all the recent VC history was enough to make me stay away.
Now I see an Encore 2250 for sale locally for $500 and I'm a bit tempted to buy it and rebuild it but I think my new to me Jotul Oslo has won me over with it's rock solid reliability, simplicity and great heat production. I do miss the top loading but it's not a big deal and I suppose I should stick with the Oslo. Still tempted though.........


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## Reckless (Nov 5, 2013)

jharkin said:


> Take that metal cover off the back and this is what you see. You can adjust the gap by turning the small screw in the center of the bimetallic coil with a flat blade screwdriver.
> 
> Image (c)  Vermont castings  - Defiant Encore 0028 / 2140 Service manual


 
So I checked and at cold the tab is at 4 o'clock but with the cat at 1300 now the tab only seems to be at 7 and the door is no where near opening, is this correct? Is it not opening soon enough causing the heat to build? Sorry this stuff is really starting to make me go in circles man.


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## jharkin (Nov 5, 2013)

Reckless said:


> So I checked and at cold the tab is at 4 o'clock but with the cat at 1300 now the tab only seems to be at 7 and the door is no where near opening, is this correct? Is it not opening soon enough causing the heat to build? Sorry this stuff is really starting to make me go in circles man.



That sounds correct.  If I understand it right the purpose of this control is to let more air into the cat chamber when the exhaust is cold, to aid light off and help it maintain cat temp.  When its hot it closes down to limit the air supply.  So seeing it close with the cat in the 1300+ range sounds right.


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## Reckless (Nov 5, 2013)

jharkin said:


> That sounds correct.  If I understand it right the purpose of this control is to let more air into the cat chamber when the exhaust is cold, to aid light off and help it maintain cat temp.  When its hot it closes down to limit the air supply.  So seeing it close with the cat in the 1300+ range sounds right.


So when its cold its closed and when its hot (1300) its closed but when its really hot (1700) its open? This is what I see when I watch it through the burn cycle. My stove thinks it should  let cold air into the chamber when the cat gets to hot and closes as it cools down again.

Reading into it I may need to do what this guy did or just close the secondary completely


ColonialCity said:


> Initially, I was asking the proper operation of the secondary air flap on the back of the stove.  I was getting too hot, over-fire conditions, and could not control the burn temp.  Up to and including 700 griddle temps almost all the time.  This was frustrating, causing lack of sleep, etc.
> I removed the 6x5 black cover on the rear of the stove, allowing me to view the operation of the secondary air flapper.  When the stove would get hot the bi-metallic spring/lever would rotate from approx the 4 O-clock position to the 9 O-clock position.  This was causing an opening of the secondary flapper, bringing in more air when Its hot.
> I called my la VC dealer asking about the proper operation of this flapper.  When I told him my idea of installing a stop screw to limit, He said "it sounds like you're on the right track.
> So.......
> ...


https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...-the-primary-air-flap-supposed-to-work.60072/


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## jharkin (Nov 5, 2013)

Reckless said:


> So when its cold its closed and when its hot (1300) its closed but when its really hot (1700) its open? This is what I see when I watch it through the burn cycle. My stove thinks it should  let cold air into the chamber when the cat gets to hot and closes as it cools down again.



When its cold it should be open - that's why you set it at 4 o'clock on a cold stove which has the flap around 1/4" open or a bit more.
When the stove heats up it should progressively close.

That regulates cat temps by adding air when it cools off to help it burn more smoke, and restricting air when it heats up to slow down the burning.

I wonder if the guy in the link below is having his coil go all the way to 9 o'clock because he is already in overfire?  I'll have to put a mirror back there and watch the position of mine from cold to 1700F and see what it does.




> Reading into it I may need to do what this guy did or just close the secondary completely
> 
> https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...-the-primary-air-flap-supposed-to-work.60072/



The limit stop is an interesting idea.  Only thing I wonder is would the coil get distorted from hitting the stop all the time?[/quote]


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## Reckless (Nov 5, 2013)

That would be great. I just took apart my old coil and new coil and swapped the parts and now my air flap is a 1/4 open at 4 oclock before it was closed. I also just re-gasketed the left door to be the full loop like you showed me now door to door passes dollar bill ... Time to load 3-4 splits of maple

Pics of coils look exactly the same....


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## Reckless (Nov 5, 2013)

Reckless said:


> That would be great. I just took apart my old coil and new coil and swapped the parts and now my air flap is a 1/4 open at 4 oclock before it was closed. I also just re-gasketed the left door to be the full loop like you showed me now door to door passes dollar bill ... Time to load 3-4 splits of maple
> 
> Pics of coils look exactly the same....


k two hours in and I have way more control now. Griddle sitting at 550-600 and cat got as high as 1600 (but I made it go there to test) when I have the air 1/8th it sits pretty steady at 1400 with super soft slow flames and when I close all the way it shows nice secondary's and no back puffs.

What I have seen with the secondary air probe. Cold it is open 1/4" as the cat reaches 1350 its is open 1/4 all the way up to 15-1600 where I could now hear it sucking air and its maybe 3/8ths but it is maintaining its cat temps and never running away (where as before I fixed the door and secondary ap I would have been 1700s easy). I do believe that the secondary is to let cold air in when the stove starts to get too hot. When you had your stove apart where did that trap door lead to? From the looks it brings air in and around and up the flue to get the hot air moving out of the cat.... BUT I could be COMPLETELY wrong  Wheres defiant when you need him


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## jharkin (Nov 5, 2013)

The secondary air passes under the refractory box and then up between the refractory and the firebox (this preheats the air) to enter the cat hood and mix with the smoke entering the catalyst.


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## Excavator (Nov 7, 2013)

Just installed my Conday digital monitor last night and I am very surprised how hot the CAT is when my pipe probe just above my T shows half the temp when cat is working. My cat was crusing along at 1200 and the probe just above the T was at 700. This explains why I was getting over firing so easy before I installed the cat probe.


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## Reckless (Nov 8, 2013)

Excavator said:


> Just installed my Conday digital monitor last night and I am very surprised how hot the CAT is when my pipe probe just above my T shows half the temp when cat is working. My cat was crusing along at 1200 and the probe just above the T was at 700. This explains why I was getting over firing so easy before I installed the cat probe.


The pipe temp should drop once the cat is engaged and active and not being overfired, at least this is what I noticed. With damper open and griddle temp 450-500 flue temp 4-500 once damper is closed and cat active FT 2-300 every time. If your FT is over 4-500 your cat is probably up near 1700. Another thing Ive learned over the past week is GT is NO indication of cat temp. I have seen 300 GT and cat reading 14-1600! Cat probes are a necessity on this stove IMO.


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## jharkin (Nov 8, 2013)

Yup, pipe temps will be hottest during bypass mode, and then drop quite low in cat operation. The cat probe is reading the hot exhaust 1/2" from te catalyst and then those gasses give up much of that heat to the back casting of the stove as they move down around and up before exiting.    I have a flue surface thermometer 3 inches from the flue collar.... just because I had one lying around...  and it will read surface pipe temps as low as 300 when the cat is cranking.  This is how we get such high heating efficiency from the stove


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## Excavator (Nov 8, 2013)

Yup, I will be saving wood and saving my stove now. I had to replace upper and lower fireback, refractory and cat last month from over fireing. now i know better


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## jharkin (Nov 9, 2013)

I think my adjustments made a difference. Cruising on 4 med. Splits at under 1/4 air. 500 griddle, 1450 cat.




Then I closed the air down to 1/8 and the main flames died to almost nothing and cat temp settled down to 1400.   Definitely more control than last time, and the draft is stronger at 29f out.

Edit: 4 hours later, outside temp up to 38, inside at 73, stove still over 400 but down to coals. Just reloaded a small 3 split load but may just let that one burn out as it will get to high 40s later.  I think that removing the key damper from the horizontal run made a huge difference in draft as I got zero smoke top loading


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## Reckless (Nov 9, 2013)

jharkin said:


> I think my adjustments made a difference. Cruising on 4 med. Splits at under 1/4 air. 500 griddle, 1450 cat.
> 
> View attachment 117163
> 
> ...


 So it was running great for a few days.... stuffed it full of ash last night (loaded just below bypass) and 1.5 in cat is 1650 and griddle is climbing towards 700+. I loaded at 400 and it closed it down at the 10min mark, it took 30min for the cat to get to 900 I turned down the air a touch and it started climbing a touch more and the flames relaxed more but it kept climbing. Thank god I have the 8" flue pipe I went straight fireplace mode with the screen and it cooled down and burn up enough wood that I could close it up again and still had coals this morning. Im really frustrated now.


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## Excavator (Nov 9, 2013)

we are still seeing a slow climb in temps after engaging cat at 350 and digital monitor shows 600 then climbs to 1000 in few minutes and i have to turn down air supply all the way. The gt will slowly climb as will the cat probe. Today twice it rose to 1800 with air shut down at 1000 degrees.
I might have to inspect my coil in back as well. This was just installed last month when i replaced complete fireback kit and cat along with new gaskets.


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## jharkin (Nov 9, 2013)

Reckless said:


> So it was running great for a few days.... stuffed it full of ash last night (loaded just below bypass) and 1.5 in cat is 1650 and griddle is climbing towards 700+. I loaded at 400 and it closed it down at the 10min mark, it took 30min for the cat to get to 900 I turned down the air a touch and it started climbing a touch more and the flames relaxed more but it kept climbing. Thank god I have the 8" flue pipe I went straight fireplace mode with the screen and it cooled down and burn up enough wood that I could close it up again and still had coals this morning. Im really frustrated now.



You closed the bypass too soon. If it doesnt shoot to 1000+ in <5 min the cat is stalled.  It can take as much as 20-30 min on a full load to get hot enough to close bypass.


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## Reckless (Nov 9, 2013)

jharkin said:


> You closed the bypass too soon. If it doesnt shoot to 1000+ in <5 min the cat is stalled.  It can take as much as 20-30 min on a full load to get hot enough to close bypass.


 So if the cat is stalled and the longer it takes to become active the more wood reaches its gas off point before the cat is fully engaged SO by the time its engaged there is already too much gas for it to handle thus creating my over fire situation? It makes perfect sense and I will monitor this to see what happens. Thanks!


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## jharkin (Nov 14, 2013)

Reckless said:


> So if the cat is stalled and the longer it takes to become active the more wood reaches its gas off point before the cat is fully engaged SO by the time its engaged there is already too much gas for it to handle thus creating my over fire situation? It makes perfect sense and I will monitor this to see what happens. Thanks!



I'm not sure about the overfiring, I just know that if it stalls at 800, usually reopening the bypass for another 5-10 minutes and then trying again usually produces better results for me than waiting it out.


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## jharkin (Nov 14, 2013)

jharkin said:


> I think my adjustments made a difference. Cruising on 4 med. Splits at under 1/4 air. 500 griddle, 1450 cat.




Some more results to report.  We had temps in the 30s with overnights down to the teens Tue and wednesday so I finally got to run some big loads.  I am very happy with how the stove is operating.


Tue @ 5pm - cold start with 4 med splits and I again got the cat to light off at only 450 griddle in about 20 min.
Tue @ 9pm - refill to the top for overnight. I didn't really pack every cubic inch.
      Overnight it dipped to the high teens but the living room stayed above 70.

Wed @ 6:30am - still had coals and ~ 300F griddle. reload a 3/4 fill.
      After letting it blast at 650 griddle/1200 cat for an hour to heat up the joint I lowered it for a low cruise.
      The temps got to the high 30s so I didn't need any more wood until dinner

Wed @ 5pm - just a few coals left and griddle down to around 225. I reloaded on the coals but it needs some coaxing to light off.  Got a 1/2 load going
Wed @ 10pm.  Stove room still at 75 and predicted to hit 50s next day, I let it burn out.

What Ive noticed:


I have not smelled or seen any smoke in the room while top loading. Even with the stove relatively cool.
Stove has better control. Even with strong draft shutting the primary air kills the flame in the box almost completely as it should
Catalytic temps are more reasonable and maintaining better. I haven't seen anything over 1500 yet, and as I change the primary air I am seeing the cat temps go up and down along with the griddle. i.e. if I have the air open 1/3 and the cat is at 1400 I can close it down to 1/8 and see the cat drop to 1250 or so.
Cat lights off very easy.  As soon as I get to 450 on the griddle, even if the cat probe reads cool, I can close the damper and the cat will light off in a couple minutes and go to 1100.

Glass is staying cleaner.  On the first few partial loads I didnt see the glass darken at all.  On the first big low overnight loads the glass hazed over with a light brown coating in the usual crescent shape, stayed clean at the bottom edge near the coals and just had a couple black spots where split ends where too close.  This might be as much due to better wood as the rebuild.
The inside of the firebox has a uniform light brown ash coating everywhere. Old caked on creosote is burning off. In the past I would get brown on the fireback but black creosote around the doors and inside of the griddle. I attribute this to better wood and a hotter primary burn possible since i have better cat control.
Its hard to say but I feel like I'm getting less ash leftover.  
Overall I am feeling   about the rebuild!


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## Excavator (Nov 14, 2013)

Jharkin - Sounds like you got it right where you want it now!
I still can't believe how fast the cat temps climb from 350 to 1100 or higher after closing the damper.
I am getting more use to it now and by biggest problem is my dry wood and if I keep bigger splits and cut down air supply sooner I can keep it from getting too hot. All these years I burnt this stove with just griddle thermometer and I see now why I had to rebuild the stove. I was burning it too hot.


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## fortuna1 (Nov 18, 2013)

I'm new to cat stoves, but man, I cannot imagine running this stove and not having the condar catalyst temp monitor. So easy to overfire!


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## Excavator (Nov 18, 2013)

Just inspected my secondary flap and found it to be 3/8 open at cold!  I adjusted it and now have 1/4 gap cold and tonight when colder I will experiment and see if secondarys behave better.  I am hoping to see better control of the secondary from running too hot once cat was lit.


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## Reckless (Nov 18, 2013)

Excavator said:


> Just inspected my secondary flap and found it to be 3/8 open at cold!  I adjusted it and now have 1/4 gap cold and tonight when colder I will experiment and see if secondarys behave better.  I am hoping to see better control of the secondary from running too hot once cat was lit.


 Do you mean a 1/4 open resting on the stopper that keeps it from closing or 1/4 open from there? I keep debating if I should turn the probe from 4 to 6 o'clock and see if there is a difference with control.


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## Excavator (Nov 18, 2013)

I used 1/4 inch drill bit and have the gap from the flapper to the spot that the flapper would be if closed. It was 3/8 and I think that was my problem.
I tried 6 oclock but then went to 5 oclock and that worked best. Tonight will be test


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## Excavator (Nov 19, 2013)

So I did my test last night and kept the cover off the coil to watch the results. At start up the flapper was open 1/4 and as stove hit griddle temp of 350 I closed bypass and cat probe showed cool for 2 minutes then quickly climbed to 1100 and then I slowly closed air supply and noticed the flapper now closed. Cat probe very slowly climbed and after few minutes I had air supply closed all the way. After another 20 minutes I could see flames getting bigger so I checked flapper. The flapper now started to open again and cat probe showed 1650 - 1750. As the flapper stayed open I could hear the stove roar a little louder but never got out of control. When I woke up 5 hours later the griddle temp was at 450 and cat probe was also 450 and warm in house. So I guess that the flapper does open back up when getting too hot too let cool air in but I was skeptical of that idea.
I am thinking of turning the coil to 3 oclock position when cold and see if that stops the coil from opening the flapper so much when it reaches 1600 on cat probe. Right now stove is cruising at 650 GT and 1700 cat probe with air all the way down and the coil is at 8 o clock position.


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## Reckless (Nov 22, 2013)

Excavator said:


> So I did my test last night and kept the cover off the coil to watch the results. At start up the flapper was open 1/4 and as stove hit griddle temp of 350 I closed bypass and cat probe showed cool for 2 minutes then quickly climbed to 1100 and then I slowly closed air supply and noticed the flapper now closed. Cat probe very slowly climbed and after few minutes I had air supply closed all the way. After another 20 minutes I could see flames getting bigger so I checked flapper. The flapper now started to open again and cat probe showed 1650 - 1750. As the flapper stayed open I could hear the stove roar a little louder but never got out of control. When I woke up 5 hours later the griddle temp was at 450 and cat probe was also 450 and warm in house. So I guess that the flapper does open back up when getting too hot too let cool air in but I was skeptical of that idea.
> I am thinking of turning the coil to 3 oclock position when cold and see if that stops the coil from opening the flapper so much when it reaches 1600 on cat probe. Right now stove is cruising at 650 GT and 1700 cat probe with air all the way down and the coil is at 8 o clock position.


1650-1750??? I would have been a little worried as the ceramic cats printed limit is 1700, what was your GT at that point?


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## Excavator (Nov 22, 2013)

grill temp was 600. I have since stated cutting air down even sooner and i am having better results. When I engauge cat at 350 on cat probe and cut air down to 1/2 the cat still climbs fast and when cat probe hits 950 i cut air down to 1/4 and all seems well. Cat probe will see 1400 but stays or decreases from then on


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## jharkin (Nov 24, 2013)

Guys I still don't see the secondary air inlet as doing anything to cool the cat, the air is preheated and feeds the cat inlet. I firmly believe its function is to add oxygen to help burn the large volume of smoke when the cat is very hot.


Anyway, yeah its possible to hit crazy temps if you are not careful. I had my first scare, cat stalled at 850, so I open the air to half and come back 5 min later hearing the roar and see 1850! Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Open the bypass and let it cool then reengage at 1400 and low air and it stabilized. Couldn't have been more than 5 min hope I didn't do major damage.

Btw, that trick works every time...

*If you overheat:
     Open bypass 
     Air to minimum
     Wait for cat probe to drop down to 1200
     Close bypass*

It will reengage and lock in at a safe temp.


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## Excavator (Nov 24, 2013)

jharkin, today i had another scare. it is very windy here and cold. I let the gridle get hotter before closing bypass and sure enough the cat probe kept climbing and today it hit 1850 for a short time and very slowly came down to 1700. I did not have the nerve to open by pass as afraid of liner getting hotter but after you said you did it I will try next time. It too was roaring in back of stove
I also took a mirror and light and looked at secondary flapper. Sure enough it started to open as temps went to 1700+. I dont know why they do it as it sure does let more air in


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## Reckless (Nov 27, 2013)

Well just to let everyone know I completely blocked my secondary air with a folded up piece of tinfoil and it seems to be doing the trick. I had been up in the 17's for the past couple days and now with the secondary probe disconnected and the air inlet blocked its been holding steady and not peaked past 1450-1500 and most of the time settles in at 13-1400. I will keep you posted. Keep in mind my house has SUPER draft.



Excavator said:


> jharkin, today i had another scare. it is very windy here and cold. I let the gridle get hotter before closing bypass and sure enough the cat probe kept climbing and today it hit 1850 for a short time and very slowly came down to 1700. I did not have the nerve to open by pass as afraid of liner getting hotter but after you said you did it I will try next time. It too was roaring in back of stove
> I also took a mirror and light and looked at secondary flapper. Sure enough it started to open as temps went to 1700+. I dont know why they do it as it sure does let more air in



What type of wood was it? This is just a guess but keeping the damper open and getting hotter GT is causing more wood to reach its gas off point. So by the time you are trying to damper down and close the primary air most of the wood is on fire and its too much gas/smoke for the cat to handle? What you should try next time is get the fire going w/ primary full open once you see a GOOD amount of flame close the damper and watch the flame. If the flame stays the same size and just shifts direction towards the cat you will have light off in no time if the flame starts to die down and is still going up towards the griddle reopen the damper. If you are looking for higher GT then do as I said and once the Cat is active adjust the air so the flame stays a decent size but is moving up towards the griddle and not back towards the cat.


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## Reckless (Nov 28, 2013)

**UPDATE** Stuffed full of oak and a good slow flame running GT 600ish and CT solid 1250 and hasnt budged in over an hour! G'night


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## Excavator (Nov 28, 2013)

Reckless said:


> **UPDATE** Stuffed full of oak and a good slow flame running GT 600ish and CT solid 1250 and hasnt budged in over an hour! G'night



The thought of disconnecting that pin crossed my mine also
Reckless - I started another thread on my latest with the secondary coil adjustment on my 0028 encore
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/vc-encore-0028-secondary.118499/


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## jharkin (Nov 28, 2013)

Interesting results. Maybe I'll open mine closer to 3 o'clock cold as well. Seems like its most important function is helping cold light off and the more open the better for that.


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## Excavator (Nov 28, 2013)

jharkin - I just can not see why the coil will start to open back up after getting over 1600 degrees either. Once that happens there seems no control and she just roars. Now at the 3 o clock position I have not seen the flapper reopen and the coil holds lower than before when crusing.
Also my old coil did the exact same thing and I believe that helped all the over firing and warped the fire backs


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## Reckless (Nov 28, 2013)

jharkin said:


> Interesting results. Maybe I'll open mine closer to 3 o'clock cold as well. Seems like its most important function is helping cold light off and the more open the better for that.


I will admit it takes about 5-10 min longer to get it going on light up. By changing the secondary to 3 your accomplishing pretty much the same thing as disconnecting the pin, I just took a step further and couldnt be more pleased with the amount of control I gained. I would suggest trying it for a few loads (fold up a piece of tf about 3 times and slide it right in between the door and opening) if something goes wrong open the bypass and let it burn out. Good luck guys!!


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## jharkin (Nov 28, 2013)

I didn't turn mine all the way to 3, more like 3:30.... just so the flap is at the top of the opening on the right side (looking from the back).  I'll see how that goes for a while and then adjust depending on results.


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## Reckless (Nov 29, 2013)

**Update 2** Another 3/4 load after getting home from PIL's and fire was out 20min in and the cat is up to 950. I watched it for 1.5hrs and it never went over 1500 and GT stayed at 550-600. I may try this..... Take off the door and remove the pin that stops it from closing then set the probe to somewhere between the 1-3 postion (door fully open on lite) and I want it to be fully closed by the time it hits 14's. Or maybe I will just leave it blocked completely and enjoy full control. No joke guys its like a whole new stove!


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## jharkin (Nov 29, 2013)

I dont know if you need to go that far.  I ran mine all day yesterday with it set to 3:30 cold and there was a definite improvement. I also never saw over 1500, and the cold light off seemed even better.


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## Excavator (Nov 29, 2013)

Same here, never went over 1500 and I see better burn times as a result


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## Reckless (Nov 29, 2013)

jharkin said:


> I dont know if you need to go that far.  I ran mine all day yesterday with it set to 3:30 cold and there was a definite improvement. I also never saw over 1500, and the cold light off seemed even better.


Now that Ive run it from cold a cple times (sub 200) I have no problem with cold starts like I thought. I'm glad that we have figured out this secondary thing, FINALLY! I am going to leave mine blocked off because I have a crazy strong draft and I think its just better that way. Happy holidays and keep warm with your "new" stoves!!


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## jharkin (Nov 29, 2013)

I'm stillunsureaout messing around with the ssecondary so much. Tonight my stove did something it never does. I loaded a fresh load, very little coals but got it going good, full load shut down cat lit off and settled at 1250. Air on 1/8.

2 hours later cat temp down to 700, stove top 250. Complete stall!

Open the air and cat died out completely.

Now I have the bypass open nursing the charred load back to life. I really believe that secondary feeds oxygen to keep the cat burning and im afraid messing it with it too much could have unintended consequences.

Edit... 20 min later we areback in action, air closed cruising at 500 griddle/1550 cat. 21f outside drafting like mad. Going to bednow hope it doesnt act up anymore.


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## Excavator (Nov 30, 2013)

I have not had that happen as of yet ans still feel much better not having my cat sneak up to 1800 range any more.
I feel like gonna be a learning curve for me but ever since installing ss insulated liner i have seen the stove run away too many times until I adjusted the coil down too 3 o clock


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## Reckless (Nov 30, 2013)

jharkin said:


> I'm stillunsureaout messing around with the ssecondary so much. Tonight my stove did something it never does. I loaded a fresh load, very little coals but got it going good, full load shut down cat lit off and settled at 1250. Air on 1/8.
> 
> 2 hours later cat temp down to 700, stove top 250. Complete stall!
> 
> ...


I mean we all have had stalled loads right? With the probe set normally I had a stall, opened the damper got it going closed the damper and that was the night the stove tried to have a nuclear melt down, I am going to leave mine blocked completely. I have also found out that when I close the bypass I can leave the front door unlatched to assist in getting the cat to fire off and once I reach the 8-900's I just latch the door and proceed as normal (puts me back to the 5min cat engage). Man I hope who ever reads this thread just reads your rebuild in the beginning and not all this tinkering we have done......... or maybe it will help someone in the future idk. Stay warm!


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## BrowningBAR (Nov 30, 2013)

Hey! Just noticed this thread!

Hope all the VC burners are burning trouble-free with no glowing flue collars, no roaring back castings, no one is waiting on parts, and you all have trouble-free heat production.

For me, the Encore has not been used much this year at this point, but the Defiant has been the main stove so far. The Defiant loves pine a little too much. Likes to climb in temp even though the primary air is shut down. Other than that, the two VCs are burning well.


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## Reckless (Dec 1, 2013)

BrowningBAR said:


> Hey! Just noticed this thread!
> 
> Hope all the VC burners are burning trouble-free with no glowing flue collars, no roaring back castings, no one is waiting on parts, and you all have trouble-free heat production.
> 
> For me, the Encore has not been used much this year at this point, but the Defiant has been the main stove so far. The Defiant loves pine a little too much. Likes to climb in temp even though the primary air is shut down. Other than that, the two VCs are burning well.


BBar you have a cat probe setup on that Defiant?


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## begreen (Dec 1, 2013)

I'm surprised you VC owners find time to burn between repairs, tweaks and retweaks.   J/K. there is a lot of good information being shared here and I would love to see VC reclaim their good name.


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## BrowningBAR (Dec 1, 2013)

Reckless said:


> BBar you have a cat probe setup on that Defiant?


Unfortunately I do not. If the Defiant stays with me after this year, I will be purchasing one.


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## BrowningBAR (Dec 1, 2013)

begreen said:


> I'm surprised you VC owners find time to burn between repairs, tweaks and retweaks.   J/K. there is a lot of good information being shared here and I would love to see VC reclaim their good name.


VC stove owners spend more time with the stoves during the warmer months performing maintenance than we do when we are using the stoves to keep us warm.


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## Excavator (Dec 1, 2013)

begreen said:


> I'm surprised you VC owners find time to burn between repairs, tweaks and retweaks.   J/K. there is a lot of good information being shared here and I would love to see VC reclaim their good name.



Now camon, we love to tinker and tweak these on VC stoves. They burn HOT  lol


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## jharkin (Dec 1, 2013)

BrowningBAR said:


> Hey! Just noticed this thread!
> 
> Hope all the VC burners are burning trouble-free with no glowing flue collars, no roaring back castings, no one is waiting on parts, and you all have trouble-free heat production.
> 
> For me, the Encore has not been used much this year at this point, but the Defiant has been the main stove so far. The Defiant loves pine a little too much. Likes to climb in temp even though the primary air is shut down. Other than that, the two VCs are burning well.



BeGreen used his magic mod powers to split off the last 3 pages of my rebuild thread (thanks BG).

I will say that other than the weird mid cycle stall mine is working better than ever.  I think Reckless is really onto something adjusting hte secondary to be further open cold. Its made a big difference in how mine operates.


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## jharkin (Dec 1, 2013)

Reckless said:


> I mean we all have had stalled loads right?



Ive had quite a few stalls trying to get the cat started where it just sits at 800,  but Ive never had a mid cycle stall after it was lit and burning over 1000.  Im hoping it was just a fluke.


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## Excavator (Dec 1, 2013)

Nah  Recklass has his blocked off and then unhooked it lol. I have mine set to 3 oclock


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## Reckless (Dec 1, 2013)

Excavator said:


> Nah  Recklass has his blocked off and then unhooked it lol. I have mine set to 3 oclock


Yes blocked and disconnected and I am now getting 10hr over night burns and cat never really goes over 14-1500 and the stove is operating flawless. I really suggest you try blocking it like I did thus eliminating the need to purchase new secondary probes in the future.... blocking is easier than adjusting the probe somewhere between 3-6 o'clock and hoping to not overfire and really takes 5min if it don't work pull the tin foil out.


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## Reckless (Dec 3, 2013)

Reckless said:


> Yes blocked and disconnected and I am now getting 10hr over night burns and cat never really goes over 14-1500 and the stove is operating flawless. I really suggest you try blocking it like I did thus eliminating the need to purchase new secondary probes in the future.... blocking is easier than adjusting the probe somewhere between 3-6 o'clock and hoping to not overfire and really takes 5min if it don't work pull the tin foil out.


Another 9hr burn on 5 splits of ash only about 2/3 full  man I loving my new stove!!


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## Excavator (Dec 3, 2013)

We gotta keep these stoves tamed


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## BrowningBAR (Dec 3, 2013)

Reckless said:


> Another 9hr burn on 5 splits of ash only about 2/3 full  man I loving my new stove!!


9 hours from the Encore in milder weather is not unheard of. During mild temps the 0028 will produce 8-10 hours of temps over 300 with the occasional 11-12 hours of heat over 300 degrees.


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## Reckless (Dec 3, 2013)

BrowningBAR said:


> 9 hours from the Encore in milder weather is not unheard of. During mild temps the 0028 will produce 8-10 hours of temps over 300 with the occasional 11-12 hours of heat over 300 degrees.


The 10 hr burn was in a low of 14 through the night till 8am or so. Yes the 9hrs on 2/3 a stove was a low of 30 or so.


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## BrowningBAR (Dec 3, 2013)

Reckless said:


> The 10 hr burn was in a low of 14 through the night till 8am or so. Yes the 9hrs on 2/3 a stove was a low of 30 or so.


It's a shame VC never worked out the kinks with these stoves. They look amazing, and when you have them working well, they really work well.


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## jharkin (Dec 3, 2013)

BrowningBAR said:


> It's a shame VC never worked out the kinks with these stoves. They look amazing, and when you have them working well, they really work well.



Agreed.  Tweaking the secondary seems to be really helping for mine..

And I know in years past Ive been able to coax the fire back from coals at as long as 14 hours if I started on an extra packed load of really dense wood (oak etc).  Not getting much of any heat the last few hours but .......


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## BrowningBAR (Dec 3, 2013)

jharkin said:


> Agreed.  Tweaking the secondary seems to be really helping for mine..
> 
> And I know in years past Ive been able to coax the fire back from coals at as long as 14 hours if I started on an extra packed load of really dense wood (oak etc).  Not getting much of any heat the last few hours but .......


The Defiant on a full load with a firebox full of thick, rolling secondaries is really great looking. The best looking stove I have owned.


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## Charles1981 (Dec 4, 2013)

My flexburn is doing alright. I just have ash and cottonwood to burn. Get 8 hours of 300+ degree stove with the air control turned all the way down (starts at 500 first 2-3 hours, then 400-450 for next 2-3, then 300 by hour 8). I've restarted on tiny little nugget coals before at 10-12 hours but that is pushing it.

Wish i had tons of well seasoned oak.... oh well. It heats the whole house (even when it is 7 degrees and negative 15 windchill outside) from the basement with multiple fans so I can't complain.

I didn't find this site until about a year after i got the stove and had i known probably would have gone with a BK or PH... always jealous hearing about their burn times...


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## Excavator (Dec 6, 2013)

I am still burning the 0028 with the secondary coil set at 3 o clock and I am very pleased the way the stove has been performing since the adjustment. It's a pleasure to have it behaving


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## jharkin (Dec 7, 2013)

My encorejust did it again!! Stalled mid load.  

2 hours in cruising at 1250 cat on low air and suddenly drops to 850. This time I caught it, go outside and see billowing smoke. Its 24f out, good draft. I'm on bypass heating it back up, the load is half coals so its certainly dy.

Ugh I don't know what's causing this and its really annoying!


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## jharkin (Dec 7, 2013)

Well a couple minutes on bypass and it took right off again so all is well for now... But I really want to understand why this happens. Don't want it to happen while I'm asleep or away....


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## BrowningBAR (Dec 8, 2013)

jharkin said:


> Well a couple minutes on bypass and it took right off again so all is well for now... But I really want to understand why this happens. Don't want it to happen while I'm asleep or away....


The problems I have:
I can have the Defiant closed down at 500 and the temps will hold for an hour or so, and then climb to 700 on the griddle. No air leaks. No bad gaskets. The bastard just runs.

The Encore: I can have rolling, thick, slow moving secondaries with a stove top of 600 and I will still see smoke from the chimney.


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## Charles1981 (Dec 8, 2013)

Sometimes i don't pack the stove very well due to irregular split sizes. Temp will hover around 450 or so and then I have seen the logs fall down as they burn and settle into a tighter formation and the stove will increase in temperature 100 degrees.


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## Excavator (Dec 8, 2013)

jharkin said:


> My encorejust did it again!! Stalled mid load.
> 
> 2 hours in cruising at 1250 cat on low air and suddenly drops to 850. This time I caught it, go outside and see billowing smoke. Its 24f out, good draft. I'm on bypass heating it back up, the load is half coals so its certainly dy.
> 
> Ugh I don't know what's causing this and its really annoying!



I can't understand it stalling at 850 and then all the smoke.
Mine has dropped from 1250 range many times too 850 and I have been checking outside when this happens but no smoke. Mine does this when I cut air down all the way too soon but I just open air up a few minutes and it climbs back up. Do you think there is a clogged screen on top of chimney hurting draft?


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## jharkin (Dec 8, 2013)

In the 4 years I've burned this stove, I've never seen it drop below 1100 cat before the coaling stage of the burn... Not till now.

After the 5 minutes of bypass last night it took off again and went to 1500 and stayed there an hour or two. One thing I recall is that it started with an episode of secondary explosions in the firebox ( backpuffs I guess but not enough to smoke the room).

I'm wondering if smehow a backpuf blew out the catalyst flame? Is that possible?
Im wondering if setting the secondary to 3 oclock is causing this somehow. That should reduce the oxygen to the cat at very high temps but increase oxygen to the cat at low temps which logic would say should help prevent stalls???? I don't get it.


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## Excavator (Dec 8, 2013)

Mine is at 3 and I just dont have the smoke problem or stalling of cat at 850. I don't have steel cat, I have ceramic. You might have partial clog on new cat but why?


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## BrowningBAR (Dec 8, 2013)

Charles1981 said:


> Sometimes i don't pack the stove very well due to irregular split sizes. Temp will hover around 450 or so and then I have seen the logs fall down as they burn and settle into a tighter formation and the stove will increase in temperature 100 degrees.


With the Defiant I will get some nice slow secondaries and then things start to pick up steam. The fire box gets more active and the temps rise. Rarely can I connect it to splits shifting. It just seems to grab hold and run. Tops off at 650-700 every damn time.


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## jharkin (Dec 8, 2013)

Excavator said:


> Mine is at 3 and I just dont have the smoke problem or stalling of cat at 850. I don't have steel cat, I have ceramic. You might have partial clog on new cat but why?



I pulled the hood off to look last week, no clog.


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## jharkin (Dec 8, 2013)

BrowningBAR said:


> T
> The Encore: I can have rolling, thick, slow moving secondaries with a stove top of 600 and I will still see smoke from the chimney.



Same here... This was an hour ago, air control straight down (~1/4 open) and cat probe reading 1200.

Its mostly steam and dissipates quick but you can see there is some faint smoke.

My glass has been staying remarkably clean this year even after all night low burns, so I dont htink its a wet wood issue.







What I saw the other night was like 10x more than this.


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## BrowningBAR (Dec 8, 2013)

jharkin said:


> Same here... This was an hour ago, air control straight down (~1/4 open) and cat probe reading 1200.
> 
> Its mostly steam and dissipates quick but you can see there is some faint smoke.
> 
> ...


The problem is; the Heritage and the Englander would/will show no smoke while burning. The Defiant has used the chimney the 30 is using and the same chimney the Heritage used. The Defiant will still show smoke, even if some of it might be steam. Meanwhile the 30 will show no smoke or steam in the same weather with the same wood.


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## Charles1981 (Dec 8, 2013)

As far as back-puffing is concerned I am pretty sure this is something I see frequently with the stove turned completely closed. If I open a quarter turn from closed, it typically goes away but you see a more constant small flame. I got a video today of the stove really cranking after I came back after 2 hours after closing the stove. When I came back the stove top was 550 and the stove closed all the way.

So just to be sure this is my stove backpuffing (finally got around to recording it and dumping it on youtube)? There is a small one at the beginning and one where the flame goes out and you can hear the wooshh starting around the 30 second mark...


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## BrowningBAR (Dec 8, 2013)

I have never had a back puffing problem. Which I am glad. Last thing I need is a back puffing problem when I own two VC stoves.


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## Reckless (Dec 9, 2013)

jharkin said:


> In the 4 years I've burned this stove, I've never seen it drop below 1100 cat before the coaling stage of the burn... Not till now.
> 
> After the 5 minutes of bypass last night it took off again and went to 1500 and stayed there an hour or two. One thing I recall is that it started with an episode of secondary explosions in the firebox ( backpuffs I guess but not enough to smoke the room).
> 
> ...


Dont forget mine is closed completely so I dont think this has to do with your secondary air. As for a back puff knocking out the cat flame?? If you didnt see/smell smoke I dont think it would be strong enough but idk. Personally I would check your damper seal, maybe enough hot exhaust is leaking out bypassing the cat?


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## jharkin (Dec 9, 2013)

My damper seal is good, it passes the dollar bill test just fine.

Thing is, before I did the rebuild - I would see a small amount of smoke even with the cat active - same as BBar. That plus the chimney buildup I had last year is what prompted my rebuid quest.  I had really hoped that the stove would be burning a lot cleaner this year.

Now I am coming to the same conclusion as BBar and others have... this just may be the way the stove works, and its just never going to produce "nothing but heatwaves" or go 3 years between cleanings like 'ol Dennis Fireview does.....  the downside of downdraft operation 

The thing that I wonder about and am going to watch closely... by altering the secondary air are we slowing down the burn rate  by just  throttling the flow of gasses up the stack?; or by forcing the fire in the catalyst chamber to burn cooler by starving it of oxygen? If its the latter case than we probably are sending more unburned smoke up the stack which is the potential for more creosote buildup.

Id be interested to see a mid season comparison of stack buildup between a

stock 4-5 o'clock secondary setting
modified 3 o'clock secondary setting
blocked secondary


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## Burner (Dec 9, 2013)

Sorry to digress but I was just wondering if my 2550 is the only stove that has a primary air flap with about a quarter inch gap on the bottom. This means that I can never completely close off air to the stove. Before I put magnets with tin foil along the bottom I could never get the stove to cruise at 200 - 300. After adding the magnet setup it greatly improved control. The stove also burns pretty clean at about 200 - 300 degrees with a CAT reading of about 1000 depending on how much is smoldering.


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## BrowningBAR (Dec 9, 2013)

Burner said:


> Sorry to digress but I was just wondering if my 2550 is the only stove that has a primary air flap with about a quarter inch gap on the bottom. This means that I can never completely close off air to the stove. Before I put magnets with tin foil along the bottom I could never get the stove to cruise at 200 - 300. After adding the magnet setup it greatly improved control. The stove also burns pretty clean at about 200 - 300 degrees with a CAT reading of about 1000 depending on how much is smoldering.


You can not completely close of the air on any modern EPA stove. VC stoves are not different or special in regards to this.


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## BrowningBAR (Dec 9, 2013)

I also use tin foil and magnets, but I use it on the Defiant as that stove likes to climb.


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## Burner (Dec 9, 2013)

So is this gap how they prevent the stove from being completely closed? The stove also has two holes on the bottom that pass air into the ash box. I thought that was the EPA thing.


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## Burner (Dec 9, 2013)

BrowningBAR said:


> I also use tin foil and magnets, but I use it on the Defiant as that stove likes to climb.



On my defiant the primary air flap never closed completely. When I tried to close it, It would spring back to about a quarter inch gap. I replaced the whole thermostat assembly (wire and flap spring). Even after doing that I had to mess with the flap and wire that it hangs on (like a hinge). It now closes pretty well and I have a huge amount of control over it. It still gets air when I close it completely, which I assume is coming from the two holes on the bottom of the stove (through the ash pan holder).


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## jharkin (Dec 9, 2013)

The primary air on my encore closes all the way. As mentioned it is adjustable by loosening the screw in the flap and sliding the wire in and out. It should just close at minimum setting cold.

The minimum epa air comes from two 1/4" holes in the ashpan housing behind the front legs.


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## Burner (Dec 9, 2013)

Hi. My 2550's primary air flap does close all the way. I actually hear it click. The problem is that the flap itself is about 1/4 inch too small from the bottom lengthwise. This leaves a gap when fully closed. Does your primary air flap cover the entire opening or does it have this gap? Thanks!


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## BrowningBAR (Dec 9, 2013)

I'm pretty sure on the 0028 the flap closes all the way, but there is still a gap at the bottom, much like the Defiant.


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## Burner (Dec 9, 2013)

Strange. My defiant doesn't have a gap. The flap covers the entire opening. The problem was that it had been springing back from closing completely which I fixed.


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## BrowningBAR (Dec 9, 2013)

Burner said:


> Strange. My defiant doesn't have a gap. The flap covers the entire opening. It had been springing back from closing completely which I fixed.


Mine has a gap. It closes completely, but the flap does not cover the entire opening.


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## BrowningBAR (Dec 9, 2013)

Also, where are the secondary holes on the Defiant?


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## Burner (Dec 9, 2013)

About 4 inches behind the front legs in the ash pan holder right up against the side of the holder. You can feel around for them and find their indentations. Use gloves if hot, obviously.


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## Excavator (Dec 10, 2013)

Jharkin - I have been experimenting with the stove last few days and even when I close damper at 350 griddle temp and cat temp on cool if I leave the air open for just few minutes the cat temp does quickly rise. Last few days I had the cat temp at just 600 and slowly closed air supply all the way. The cat temp still slowly rises to 1500 - 1700 and just hangs around there for hour or so then very slowly drops. I have not seen the cat stall yet even closing the damper and air supply this quick. Only time I did see this was with bad wood on my part


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## Reckless (Dec 10, 2013)

Excavator said:


> The cat temp still slowly rises to 1500 - 1700 and just hangs around there for hour or so then very slowly drops.


Upper 20's here last night stuffed full of red oak 9.5hrs later GT 4-500 and a HUGE bed of coals and clean glass. Raked forward and got another hr or usable heat off the glass. Sorry for the constant updates but I really think you guys should try blocking your secondary. I know all drafts are different but I think its worth a try even if its a cple daytime loads. Last time I mention it 

Note: I tightened my door latch again (3rd time since gasket change) last night before my overnight and WOW what a difference again. Make sure you guys keep up with your door and ash pan latches!!


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## grobinson2 (Dec 11, 2013)

I have been following this thread for a couple of weeks now and have it come up as soon as I open Firefox for updates.  Please keep them coming.  I have been a coal burner for years and use whole house coal boilers (running on corn, prune pits and coal) but just got into the VC stoves and find them fascinating and of course beautiful.  We have nine fireplaces to mess around with so I hope to put a different model in each fire place.  I am very intrigued as to how you are getting such clean glass?  I am burning wood that is five or so years dried (oak) in a VC1945 that I totally rebuilt and my glass will coke up in no time unless I burn with the bypass open.  Anyway not hijacking your thread but if you could please provide a link to your stove rebuild I would very much like to look over that as well.

Thanks again,
Glenn


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## Charles1981 (Dec 12, 2013)

You have the andirons in place correct?


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## Reckless (Dec 12, 2013)

grobinson2 said:


> I have been following this thread for a couple of weeks now and have it come up as soon as I open Firefox for updates.  Please keep them coming.  I have been a coal burner for years and use whole house coal boilers (running on corn, prune pits and coal) but just got into the VC stoves and find them fascinating and of course beautiful.  We have nine fireplaces to mess around with so I hope to put a different model in each fire place.  I am very intrigued as to how you are getting such clean glass?  I am burning wood that is five or so years dried (oak) in a VC1945 that I totally rebuilt and my glass will coke up in no time unless I burn with the bypass open.  Anyway not hijacking your thread but if you could please provide a link to your stove rebuild I would very much like to look over that as well.
> 
> Thanks again,
> Glenn


First off welcome! Secondly please dont buy 9 VC's for my sanity alone  Third does your vc1945 have an air wash system above the doors? If so you have to adjust it. Easiest way I found is to close both doors and reach through the top load and feel how they line up (No fire of course!!)  I had the same problem until I lined the air wash up with the air channel above the doors. To adjust mine, they had to widen so I had to remove the screw closest to the door opening, give it a couple turns and screw it back into the door hole. Now no more black soot (for the most part  ) Keep warm!!

Looking at the *manual* it appears it does, though it isnt mentioned.


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## Reckless (Dec 13, 2013)

Hopefully no news is good news..... keeping busy tryin to keep my underpowered stove full!! Anyone else get mad like me when you have good cat temps and poor GT and you look and you can see the flames going straight into the cats throat? I get so mad I disengage and rearrange the burnt wood to get the flames to go up and not back  stupid design flaw!


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## JV_Thimble (Dec 14, 2013)

Love this thread. I have one of these finicky stoves as well. I've found it best to 1/2 load the stove. Easiest way to avoid over-firing without too much messing with it. Still too tricky for my wife to operate this unit, though.


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## Excavator (Dec 14, 2013)

tricky yes but sure heats up the house. My wife will through just few pieces in as reload and leave it to me when I get home to crank it up.
I thought about replacing the 0028 encore at end of last season but elected to do complete rebuild few months back. Now with the ss insulated liner and rebuild it works better then it ever has since 1989 when I installed it.


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## grobinson2 (Dec 16, 2013)

Good morning Guys,
     Well it would figure that I move on to some other threads about your rebuild and I figured I would get an email telling me there were updates on this thread.  Obviously I was wrong so when I checked this morning I was a bit dismayed that I did not get to try your suggestions this weekend.  Anyway, thank you for getting back to me.  I do have the end irons in place and have made sure that I do not have any of the burning wood touching the glass or doors.  Yes my 1945 does have the air wash above the doors and I am looking forward to trying your suggestion this weekend.  As far as filling each fireplace with a different model that is still the plan plus I have a Coalbrookdale Darby (Worlds worst wood stove but one of the best coal stoves) and a few others that will be moved into place when time permits.

Thanks again guys,
Glenn


----------



## BrowningBAR (Dec 16, 2013)

JV_Thimble said:


> Love this thread. I have one of these finicky stoves as well. I've found it best to 1/2 load the stove. Easiest way to avoid over-firing without too much messing with it. Still too tricky for my wife to operate this unit, though.


I load both stove full. Neither stove runs away, but the Defiant likes to climb.

When things start to run away, that's when you have to check your gaskets. All of them.


----------



## jharkin (Dec 16, 2013)

Ive been away for a bit... cold, snow, kids birthday.. stove going 24/7 the last 4 days 



BrowningBAR said:


> Mine has a gap. It closes completely, but the flap does not cover the entire opening.



I finally got a chance to get back there and take a picture. My encore looks like it closes completely?







Excavator said:


> Jharkin - I have been experimenting with the stove last few days and even when I close damper at 350 griddle temp and cat temp on cool if I leave the air open for just few minutes the cat temp does quickly rise. Last few days I had the cat temp at just 600 and slowly closed air supply all the way. The cat temp still slowly rises to 1500 - 1700 and just hangs around there for hour or so then very slowly drops. I have not seen the cat stall yet even closing the damper and air supply this quick. Only time I did see this was with bad wood on my part



Yeah, I have to keep experimenting.  I know Joful uses this method on his Jotul F12, close the damper early and just wait it out as the cat slowly climbs to 1000+ over 20 minutes or so.  I had been getting it really hot on big loads for a fast light off because when I tried the wait it out method I would get tons of smoke from the stack.

I also had another one of the mid-load semi stalls (cruising along at 1300 then drop to 900 for no reason).  This time I tried waiting one out and it did catch again and go back up to 1200 within 30-40 minutes.  I just hate smoking out the neighborhood while I wait. These mid cycle stalls.... I dont know if I have a potentially bad steelcat, or its just that the rebuild has the stove so tight its burning much lower than it ever could before.

The wood is dry, this stuff has been in the shed for 2-3 years, re checked it and its all under 15%.  

I am not really seeing any significantly longer burn times, but I am getting a lot better heat, managing to maintain the house at low-med burn with temps in the teens that would have required pushing it hard before. Control is a lot better and I can finally open the air wide on a big load and let the griddle heat up while the cat cools down as it should  (possibly due to the secondary tweak).

the big tell will be how the chimney looks.  I'll pull the clean out cap for a peak at mid season after the new years...


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## jharkin (Dec 17, 2013)

Cold and snowy today, and have been watching whats coming out of hte stack.

Starting from a cold start, got a big load going and lit off the cat. This is 15 minutes after closing the damper, griddle temp ~ 500, cat temp 1200.




1.5 hours later and its clear.  Cat temp is still around 1250.





The wood is dry (< 15% most of it).  It is very cold today, barely into the teens as these photos where shot and the "smoke" is mostly white.  Maybe  its just a lot of steam in the cool flue gasses condensing in the cold air?

Only thing else I could figure is somehow my brand new steelcat is bad.


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## BrowningBAR (Dec 17, 2013)

jharkin said:


> It is very cold today, barely into the teens as these photos where shot and the "smoke" is mostly white.  Maybe  its just a lot of steam in the cool flue gasses condensing in the cold air?
> 
> Only thing else I could figure is somehow my brand new steelcat is bad.


All I can say is that I can have three stoves going and only the VC stoves will show "steam."


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## jharkin (Dec 17, 2013)

BrowningBAR said:


> All I can say is that I can have three stoves going and only the VC stoves will show "steam."



At least I feel a little better that Im not alone.  After the rebuild and new cat there is not much more that I can do with this thing, Im starting to resign to the fact its just how VCs work....   

Interestingly I see reports of smoke at times during the cycle on the BK thread.  

And they get the same black glass as we do... or rather worse.


Maybe its only Woodstock that knows the magic recipe to a clean catalytic burn?


----------



## BrowningBAR (Dec 17, 2013)

jharkin said:


> At least I feel a little better that Im not alone.  After the rebuild and new cat there is not much more that I can do with this thing, Im starting to resign to the fact its just how VCs work....
> 
> Interestingly I see reports of smoke at times during the cycle on the BK thread.
> 
> ...


I'll let you know. I will have at least one BK and one Woodstock stove within the next two years.


----------



## Reckless (Dec 19, 2013)

jharkin said:


> At least I feel a little better that Im not alone.  After the rebuild and new cat there is not much more that I can do with this thing, Im starting to resign to the fact its just how VCs work....
> 
> Interestingly I see reports of smoke at times during the cycle on the BK thread.
> 
> ...


"steam" is a daily occurrence for me with my stove, dissipates quickly enough. Only time I see heat waves is when the load is coal stage.


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## grobinson2 (Dec 20, 2013)

Reckless said:


> Third does your vc1945 have an air wash system above the doors? If so you have to adjust it. Easiest way I found is to close both doors and reach through the top load and feel how they line up (No fire of course!!) I had the same problem until I lined the air wash up with the air channel above the doors. To adjust mine, they had to widen so I had to remove the screw closest to the door opening, give it a couple turns and screw it back into the door hole. Now no more black soot (for the most part  ) Keep warm!!



Good evening Guys,
     I cleaned out the stove this evening, closed off the secondary air by unhooking the bimetal coil and using a magnet to keep the little gate closed all the way.  I made sure when the stove is cold and the primary air is all the way toward the back of the stove (in the closed position) that the primary air flapper is shut all the way.  Next was to address the air wash, and I am having some issues there.  So above the front doors there is of course a large slot where the primary air comes from.  That is all I have as far as air wash.  I can see on the Encore's that there is some kind of device mounted above the glass on each door but of course the Defiants do not have them.  Am I missing something?

Thanks again,
Glenn


----------



## Reckless (Dec 20, 2013)

grobinson2 said:


> Good evening Guys,
> I cleaned out the stove this evening, closed off the secondary air by unhooking the bimetal coil and using a magnet to keep the little gate closed all the way.  I made sure when the stove is cold and the primary air is all the way toward the back of the stove (in the closed position) that the primary air flapper is shut all the way.  Next was to address the air wash, and I am having some issues there.  So above the front doors there is of course a large slot where the primary air comes from.  That is all I have as far as air wash.  I can see on the Encore's that there is some kind of device mounted above the glass on each door but of course the Defiants do not have them.  Am I missing something?
> 
> Thanks again,
> Glenn


Youre gonna have to wait for defiant or bbar to answer that. In the manual it shows an airwash manifold but nothing on the doors themselves. http://www.fergusonfireplace.com/1910.pdf


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## Burner (Dec 22, 2013)

Thanks to this thread, I took on the job of rebuilding my 2550 encore. Based on the condition of the refractory assembly, it was time. What do you think!?


----------



## begreen (Dec 22, 2013)

jharkin said:


> At least I feel a little better that Im not alone.  After the rebuild and new cat there is not much more that I can do with this thing, Im starting to resign to the fact its just how VCs work....
> 
> Interestingly I see reports of smoke at times during the cycle on the BK thread.
> 
> ...



More airwash = cleaner glass and shorter burn time.


----------



## Reckless (Dec 22, 2013)

Burner said:


> Thanks to this thread, I took on the job of rebuilding my 2550 encore. Based on the condition of the refractory assembly, it was time. What do you think!?


WOW I have a couple years left in mine by the looks of that XD


----------



## Excavator (Dec 22, 2013)

Burner said:


> Thanks to this thread, I took on the job of rebuilding my 2550 encore. Based on the condition of the refractory assembly, it was time. What do you think!?



It was time


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## Excavator (Dec 22, 2013)

here is what I removed


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## Burner (Dec 22, 2013)

Excavator said:


> here is what I removed



That's horrid. It's not even recognizable!


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## Charles1981 (Dec 22, 2013)

Burner said:


> Thanks to this thread, I took on the job of rebuilding my 2550 encore. Based on the condition of the refractory assembly, it was time. What do you think!?



Wow, for how long were you burning in that stove?


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## Burner (Dec 22, 2013)

Charles1981 said:


> Wow, for how long were you burning in that stove?



Just a little less than a year. When I bought it used, it was in ok shape but during the winter last year I had a Cat warp on me. That broke the right side. I put in some refractory cement and kaowool to close it up and was able to use it for a few months. After buying a new oslo a few weeks ago, I took it out of commission and started the rebuild. I didn't know it was as bad as it was until I took the rear burn plate off.


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## Charles1981 (Dec 22, 2013)

i guess my question is more along the lines of how old is the stove and how many years was it burned before you bought it?


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## Burner (Dec 22, 2013)

Charles1981 said:


> i guess my question is more along the lines of how old is the stove and how many years was it burned before you bought it?



The stove was installed in 2004 and was used quite a bit. So that's about 8 years before I started using it. No parts were warped so I think they burned it responsibly.


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## Charles1981 (Dec 22, 2013)

Man that is disappointing. I guess i will find myself in this spot in 8 years as well? I wouldn't think there is a big difference in the refractory of a 2040 vs the 2550


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## Burner (Dec 22, 2013)

I can't say as to the difference if any. But I can attest to the fact that the refractory material is not very durable.


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## jharkin (Dec 22, 2013)

Burner said:


> I can't say as to the difference if any. But I can attest to the fact that the refractory material is not very durable.



When you buy a brand new one it feels very stiff and solid... But then the first time it gets fired becomes very brittle.


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## BrowningBAR (Dec 22, 2013)

I like how I'm subscribed to this thread, yet I never get alerts letting me know that new posts are available.


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## grobinson2 (Dec 22, 2013)

Anyone available to chime in on my air wash system...  Nudge, Nudge Browning.


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## BrowningBAR (Dec 22, 2013)

grobinson2 said:


> Anyone available to chime in on my air wash system...  Nudge, Nudge Browning.


Which post is it?

Found it. give me a moment to read it.


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## BrowningBAR (Dec 22, 2013)

grobinson2 said:


> Good evening Guys,
> I cleaned out the stove this evening, closed off the secondary air by unhooking the bimetal coil and using a magnet to keep the little gate closed all the way.  I made sure when the stove is cold and the primary air is all the way toward the back of the stove (in the closed position) that the primary air flapper is shut all the way.  Next was to address the air wash, and I am having some issues there.  So above the front doors there is of course a large slot where the primary air comes from.  That is all I have as far as air wash.  I can see on the Encore's that there is some kind of device mounted above the glass on each door but of course the Defiants do not have them.  Am I missing something?
> 
> Thanks again,
> Glenn


Nope, you are not missing anything. The Encore and Defiant are designed differently. There is nothing attached to the Defiant's glass.


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## grobinson2 (Dec 22, 2013)

As a fellow Defiant burner do you have any issues with your glass coking up?


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## BrowningBAR (Dec 22, 2013)

grobinson2 said:


> As a fellow Defiant burner do you have any issues with your glass coking up?


If I burn hot, which it likes to do, the glass stays clean for a few days at a time but gets cloudy from fly ash. When I attempt, and fail, to burn at lower temps, I soot up the glass. But, my Defiant likes to temp climb, so the stove usually sits at 600-700 griddle temp. Gaskets are good, doors, griddle, and ash pan seal properly. The sob likes to climb. And smoke. And burn dirty.

I'm pulling the pipe tonight to see what type of build up I have. I expect several shovels of soot collecting at the base of the line/pipe.


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## grobinson2 (Dec 22, 2013)

On Friday I blocked off the EPA holes, and the back secondary air gate and I am getting some puff backs.  I have WAY more control over the stove and it burns great in bipass mode at whatever temperature I desire but in CAT mode I did get some of the puff backs.  Once I played with it through the day Saturday I was able to slow the puff backs if not eliminate them.  I need to order a CAT probe so I can see what it is doing on the inside of the stove.

Thanks again,
Glenn


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## Charles1981 (Dec 22, 2013)

ermm, pretty sure your stove is not meant to run in bypass mode...only for fire starting and reloading...


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## BrowningBAR (Dec 22, 2013)

Charles1981 said:


> ermm, pretty sure your stove is not meant to run in bypass mode...only for fire starting and reloading...


Correct. Running in updraft mode for long periods of time will damage the stove.


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## Charles1981 (Dec 22, 2013)

Cat mode is the cat installed bypass closed, non-cat mode is the cat removed bypass closed.


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## grobinson2 (Dec 22, 2013)

Not with a 1945.  Cat mode is with the damper engaged and bybass mode is of course with the damper not engage.  As far as damaging the stove in bypass mode as long as I am not over firing the stove how would it damage the stove?  I am running the stove at around 400F griddle temp in bypass mode and it runs just fine.  Efficient...  Of course not but it is a pretty fire.  I also burn the stove with the doors open a lot as well.

Thanks again,
Glenn


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## Charles1981 (Dec 22, 2013)

hrmm.... someone else is going to have to chime in but I don't think your stove is supposed to be run with the damper open except to cold start, and to reload and get the stove back up to temperature... It may just be a straight cat stove then and only supposed to be run in cat mode.


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## grobinson2 (Dec 22, 2013)

Yep, and that reason would be called the EPA.


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## BrowningBAR (Dec 22, 2013)

grobinson2 said:


> Not with a 1945.  Cat mode is with the damper engaged and bybass mode is of course with the damper not engage.  As far as damaging the stove in bypass mode as long as I am not over firing the stove how would it damage the stove?  I am running the stove at around 400F griddle temp in bypass mode and it runs just fine.  Efficient...  Of course not but it is a pretty fire.  I also burn the stove with the doors open a lot as well.
> 
> Thanks again,
> Glenn



You have a LOT of flame and heat going up through the damper housing/casting. That area becomes very hot and will warp at some point. I have seen many, many Encores and Defiants with warped damper housings.


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## grobinson2 (Dec 22, 2013)

Well that would make sense and I can diffidently see your point on that one.  I wondered the same thing though and at least on the outside of the stove the temperature is about the same weather I have it in bypass mode or fireplace (open door) mode.

Thanks again,
Glenn


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## Charles1981 (Dec 22, 2013)

Yea funny, I found the 1945 manual online and it doesn't really say you SHOULDNT run the stove with the damper open but the reloading directions state to "open damper, reload, close damper".

you stove is catalytic only. It is NOT meant to be run with the damper open. It is probably only running well in bypass mode now because you went and plugged up the air feeding system.

You should be reloading the stove. Getting it up to 400-500 stove top, and then closing the damper, and letting the catalyst do its work. 

Your stove was not meant to run without a catalyst or to run with the damper open.


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## grobinson2 (Dec 22, 2013)

Charles with all due respect that is just not correct.  Plugging the holes did not change the burning characteristics one little bit in bypass mode, only in CAT mode.  As far as the stove being meant to be run with the damper open or closed, it is rather hard to burn the stove in fireplace mode with the damper closed.  Well I take that back.  It is really pretty easy to burn it in fireplace mode with the damper closed but it kind of smokes the hell out of your house and gives you very few options other then to open all the windows.


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## Charles1981 (Dec 22, 2013)

yes... but then you aren't really using the stove as a wood stove. Dis-regarding running the stove as a fireplace, it isn't meant to be run in bypass mode nor without a cat. Your issues with the stove have been regarding running it as a wood stove correct?


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## grobinson2 (Dec 22, 2013)

I can't disagree with that.  I am just saying that as long as I am not heating up the cast iron to temps that could warp or damage it I shouldn't be hurting the stove.  I am looking at it this way.  If I want a nice efficient burn then of course I go CAT mode.  If I want a nice fire where my glass looks nice and clean I run in bypass mode.  What I need is one of the newer model stoves so that when I run in non-cat mode I am still running somewhat efficiently.


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## Charles1981 (Dec 22, 2013)

My stove is very similar design...not quite the same but If i leave the damper open for 30-40 minutes the stove heats up to over 800 degrees and starts to glow. It has happened twice it is scary, not fun, and may cause damage in the long run. That is typically the course of burning with the bypass open.

If you are burning with the bypass open and the stove reaches 400 and just kind of stays there...something isn't right.

Unless this is "fireplace" mode with the front doors open.


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## Charles1981 (Dec 22, 2013)

I am sorry, just trying to be helpful. I will not offer my input any further regarding the matter...


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## begreen (Dec 22, 2013)

Time to calm down a bit. Communicating over the internet is sometimes hard, so cut some slack here. Running in bypass mode is dramtatically reducing the stove efficiency and sending a lot of heat up the flue. Folks here are just trying to undestand why and to see if there is a  way to get back to proper running of the stove.


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## grobinson2 (Dec 22, 2013)

Agreed.  Would you guys say that the Encore's keep their glass a little cleaner then the Defiants?

Thanks again,
Glenn


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## BrowningBAR (Dec 22, 2013)

grobinson2 said:


> Agreed.  Would you guys say that the Encore's keep their glass a little cleaner then the Defiants?
> 
> Thanks again,
> Glenn


For me, it seems to be the same. The Defiant tends to get soot spots when a split is touching the glass. Since the doors and firebox are so much larger than the Encore, splits against the glass happen more on the Defiant than the Encore.


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## Excavator (Dec 23, 2013)

I blame my over fire problems causing the damage. Since I adjusted my secondary coil to 3 o clock position I have zero problems with stove running away with high temps
Mine is 0028 model


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## jharkin (Dec 23, 2013)

Lets all be friends guys....  the warm front is moving out, freezing rain is here and the deep freeze is on tomorrow for Christmas eve.

Gentlemen, time to lock and load our stoves. Get out that special stash from your woodshed.  Its on!


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## BrowningBAR (Dec 23, 2013)

jharkin said:


> Gentlemen, time to lock and load our stoves. Get out that special stash from your woodshed. Its on!


Not over here. Next ten days have highs in the 30s and 40s. Mostly seasonal average stuff.


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## grobinson2 (Dec 23, 2013)

Browning, So just to clarify your standing you feel they are about the same in air wash quality but that with the Defiant you get splits closer to the glass which will soot it up faster then the Encore.  Does anyone know if the newer 2-1 stoves are better then these older CAT stoves in the air wash department.  Please keep in mind I am not using my stove as a primary heater (that's was our coal boiler is for) and while I want to option to use the CAT and burn the wood efficiently I am mainly going for looks.  On another note Browning our current weather blows!  I thought it was winter time!  

Glenn


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## Diabel (Dec 23, 2013)

Hello folks,

It has been a while since I posted here but I have been following this thread (the rebuild part) since I am getting ready to totally rebuild my 2550 and put it to use for the next heating season. 

When you talk about dirty glass do you mean black soot or hazy grayish film? I get the haze but never the black soot. On ocassion as BBar mentiond a split will shift and touch the glass, a black spot will develop but it is always gone once the stove is ready for a reload. Keep in mind the 0028 has double glass and i think that is the main reason for the clean glass. When I had the 1450NC the glass would sometimes get the black soot but it was surly due to questionable wood and me trying to close down the air too soon.

Btw jharkin thanks for posting the rebuild details! I will follow it as I work on the 2550 starting in Jan.


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## grobinson2 (Dec 23, 2013)

Diabel said:


> When you talk about dirty glass do you mean black soot or hazy grayish film? I get the haze but never the black soot. On ocassion as BBar mentiond a split will shift and touch the glass, a black spot will develop but it is always gone once the stove is ready for a reload. Keep in mind the 0028 has double glass and i think that is the main reason for the clean glass. When I had the 1450NC the glass would sometimes get the black soot but it was surly due to questionable wood and me trying to close down the air too soon.



Hey Diabel, I am referring to the black baked on stuff.  I have yet to get the white fly ash that some of the guys have spoken about.  Also I wanted to ask what you meant by the 0028 having double glass?

Thanks again and Merry Christmas,
Glenn


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## Diabel (Dec 23, 2013)

grobinson2 said:


> Hey Diabel, I am referring to the black baked on stuff.  I have yet to get the white fly ash that some of the guys have spoken about.  Also I wanted to ask what you meant by the 0028 having double glass?
> 
> Thanks again and Merry Christmas,
> Glenn



Hi Glenn,

The glass is double pane on the 0028 encore.


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## Burner (Dec 23, 2013)

Just my two cents....When I was running my 2550, my glass was never clean. It always had a dark coating on it, presumably creosote. But in all fairness, I burned the stove really low at 250 consistently. I didn't see flames unless it was to get the CAT up to temp. In fact, I didn't even know that these encores were capable of running with clean glass. The same goes for my Defiant 1945, except I run it at around 350 unless it's really cold then I crank it to 550. By the way, I have gotten incredible burn times from both of my VC's. The Defiant's stack is marginal but it must be ideal since it just went 16 hrs with plenty of coals left over to ignite rather large splits. The encore regularly got 10 hrs running at 200-250. Also, in my experience, these stoves aren't nearly as finicky as my new Oslo when it comes to wood moisture content. I can easily load 20%-25% splits without blinking into the VC's. However, the Oslo really wants 10%-15% or even lower to operate efficiently.  Despite the VC reputation on these forums, that am sure isn't without merit, I feel these are great Cat stoves. The 1945 is completely controllable and the 2550 was after I tweaked the primary air intake by surrounding it with tin foil and magnets, essentially making the opening smaller. After I did that the stove was amazing. (I left the EPA holes open on both stoves).


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## grobinson2 (Dec 23, 2013)

So I lit the stove this evening got it up to 450 and put it in CAT mode.  I can see a few flames in there but for the most part it black smoked the glass all up.  The stove is burning very well though.  My wood is supper dry (four or five years dry) and oak so I am not sure why I am getting the black soot.  As far as burn times I cannot complain about them.  I put three small logs in there and it will burn all night long.  Again I do run the stove on the low side.  I can say that after closing the EPA holes and the secondary air inlet I have amazing control over the stove, amazing control.

Thanks again,
Glenn


----------



## Reckless (Dec 23, 2013)

Diabel said:


> Hello folks,
> 
> It has been a while since I posted here but I have been following this thread (the rebuild part) since I am getting ready to totally rebuild my 2550 and put it to use for the next heating season.
> 
> ...


I no longer get black soot either just grey haze since I adjusted my airwash. 



grobinson2 said:


> So I lit the stove this evening got it up to 450 and put it in CAT mode.  I can see a few flames in there but for the most part it black smoked the glass all up.  The stove is burning very well though.  My wood is supper dry (four or five years dry) and oak so I am not sure why I am getting the black soot.  As far as burn times I cannot complain about them.  I put three small logs in there and it will burn all night long.  Again I do run the stove on the low side.  I can say that after closing the EPA holes and the secondary air inlet I have amazing control over the stove, amazing control.
> 
> Thanks again,
> Glenn


You need a probe. Black soot means you are burning way too low and the wood is just smoldering. Do you have a therm on the griddle? What does it read?


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## Diabel (Dec 23, 2013)

Reckless said:


> I no longer get black soot either just grey haze since I adjusted my airwash.
> 
> 
> You need a probe. Black soot means you are burning way too low and the wood is just smoldering. Do you have a therm on the griddle? What does it read?


+1 on the smoldering...burning too low point


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## Reckless (Dec 23, 2013)

grobinson2 said:


> I can't disagree with that.  I am just saying that as long as I am not heating up the cast iron to temps that could warp or damage it I shouldn't be hurting the stove.  I am looking at it this way.  If I want a nice efficient burn then of course I go CAT mode.  If I want a nice fire where my glass looks nice and clean I run in bypass mode.  What I need is one of the newer model stoves so that when I run in non-cat mode I am still running somewhat efficiently.


I can run my stove in cat mode and get very good flame visuals. All I have to do is dial in the primary to a point where flames are going up to the griddle and not back towards the cat. Also you mention puffing, when is that happening? Primary all the way open or near closed? If its with primary all the way open you dont have enough draft and should probably unblock one of the openings you closed. If its happening with the primary near closed then youre just closing it too much.


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## grobinson2 (Dec 23, 2013)

Hey guys,
     I am getting some back puffing when I have my primary closed so obviously I need to open that up a little (just did that a second ago).  Also sounds like I am just running the stove a little too low.  I was getting the puff backs this evening when the griddle temp was 325-350.  I have the griddle at 435 now and I am not getting any puff backs.  I have not had a time where the flames are going toward the cat just dancing around the stove or out all together of course before the puff-back.  I wish I could adjust my air wash.  It would seem from my end that the Encore's do have a better air wash system then the defiant.

Thanks,
Glenn


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## BrowningBAR (Dec 23, 2013)

grobinson2 said:


> Browning, So just to clarify your standing you feel they are about the same in air wash quality but that with the Defiant you get splits closer to the glass which will soot it up faster then the Encore.  Does anyone know if the newer 2-1 stoves are better then these older CAT stoves in the air wash department.  Please keep in mind I am not using my stove as a primary heater (that's was our coal boiler is for) and while I want to option to use the CAT and burn the wood efficiently I am mainly going for looks.  On another note Browning our current weather blows!  I thought it was winter time!
> 
> Glenn


I feel the air wash on the two stoves are about the same in terms of effectiveness. I don't think the newer stoves are much different as it regards the air wash, but I have never run one.


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## BrowningBAR (Dec 24, 2013)

Reckless said:


> I can run my stove in cat mode and get very good flame visuals. All I have to do is dial in the primary to a point where flames are going up to the griddle and not back towards the cat. Also you mention puffing, when is that happening? Primary all the way open or near closed? If its with primary all the way open you dont have enough draft and should probably unblock one of the openings you closed. If its happening with the primary near closed then youre just closing it too much.


Yeah, when the Defiant and Encore are burning well for me, the rolling, thick secondaries provide a nice look.


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## BrowningBAR (Dec 24, 2013)

grobinson2 said:


> Hey guys,
> I am getting some back puffing when I have my primary closed so obviously I need to open that up a little (just did that a second ago).  Also sounds like I am just running the stove a little too low.  I was getting the puff backs this evening when the griddle temp was 325-350.  I have the griddle at 435 now and I am not getting any puff backs.  I have not had a time where the flames are going toward the cat just dancing around the stove or out all together of course before the puff-back.  I wish I could adjust my air wash.  It would seem from my end that the Encore's do have a better air wash system then the defiant.
> 
> Thanks,
> Glenn


I do not have any experience with back puffing with any of the four VC stoves I have owned. Not sure if I run the stoves drastically different than most, or just lucky.


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## grobinson2 (Dec 24, 2013)

So at 450 griddle temp I was still getting some smoke smell in the house so I opened the primary just a bit more then I had it before and the stove started to climb fast.  I ended up opening the bypass and opening the front doors to bring down the temp.  I am thinking my wood may be too dry but I don't know.  I just need to keep playing with the stove.  Browning you run the stove stock except for tuning your secondary air, correct?

Thanks again,
Glenn


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## BrowningBAR (Dec 24, 2013)

grobinson2 said:


> So at 450 griddle temp I was still getting some smoke smell in the house so I opened the primary just a bit more then I had it before and the stove started to climb fast.  I ended up opening the bypass and opening the front doors to bring down the temp.  I am thinking my wood may be too dry but I don't know.  I just need to keep playing with the stove.  Browning you run the stove stock except for tuning your secondary air, correct?
> 
> Thanks again,
> Glenn


Stock it is. The issue I have is that it does not like to run low. Doesn't matter when I close the air down, at some point it will catch and climb to 650.


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## grobinson2 (Dec 24, 2013)

Is that the case for the Encore as well?


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## BrowningBAR (Dec 24, 2013)

grobinson2 said:


> Is that the case for the Encore as well?


It can happen, just not nearly as often with the Encore.


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## Excavator (Dec 24, 2013)

Cleaned out stove after warm day yesterday. Now back to burning


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## jharkin (Dec 24, 2013)

I got very black glass on mine from overnightburns the first couple years. Now that I've rebuild and have much drier wood imostly get a haze from overnight bursns and stay pretty clean when I'm burning hot.

Blocking every air intake to get very long slow burns will surely black up the glass. May crud up the chimney as well...


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## grobinson2 (Dec 24, 2013)

Good morning Guys,
     I will unblock the two EPA holes and give that a try this evening and see if it makes any difference.  I get to spend the day with the in laws...  Uggg...

Merry Christmas,
Glenn


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## Reckless (Dec 24, 2013)

BrowningBAR said:


> Stock it is. The issue I have is that it does not like to run low. Doesn't matter when I close the air down, at some point it will catch and climb to 650.


650 is where I try to keep my stove for day burns since its undersized. Normally for GT of 650 im around 1250-1500 but GT isnt really a great indicator of CT I have had 350GT and 1700CT with no visible flames (before I redid door gaskets). Stay warm fellas!!


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## Charles1981 (Dec 24, 2013)

I let the stove top get to 450-500 before closing the bypass. The stove then typically slowly rises to 600 (sometimes just a little over) and cruises there for about 1-2 hour before dropping to 450-500 for another 2-3 hours, then 350-400 for 2-3 hours. Usually by hour 7-8 or so the stove top is ~300 and it is time to reload. Really do need to install a cat probe though so I really know whats going on in the combustion chamber. Right now I just make sure the cat fires off behind the refractory cover and smoke from the stack is minimal. No idea what temperatures are going on back there 

Same thing, even with the primary air control closed it still gets up and cruises at 600... almost no flames however. I rarely run the stove with the primary air open as there isn't much need although it is -10 wind chill this morning so I have it open 1/2 way and roaring away.


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## Diabel (Dec 24, 2013)

Burner said:


> Just my two cents....When I was running my 2550, my glass was never clean. It always had a dark coating on it, presumably creosote. But in all fairness, I burned the stove really low at 250 consistently. I didn't see flames unless it was to get the CAT up to temp. In fact, I didn't even know that these encores were capable of running with clean glass. The same goes for my Defiant 1945, except I run it at around 350 unless it's really cold then I crank it to 550. By the way, I have gotten incredible burn times from both of my VC's. The Defiant's stack is marginal but it must be ideal since it just went 16 hrs with plenty of coals left over to ignite rather large splits. The encore regularly got 10 hrs running at 200-250. Also, in my experience, these stoves aren't nearly as finicky as my new Oslo when it comes to wood moisture content. I can easily load 20%-25% splits without blinking into the VC's. However, the Oslo really wants 10%-15% or even lower to operate efficiently.  Despite the VC reputation on these forums, that am sure isn't without merit, I feel these are great Cat stoves. The 1945 is completely controllable and the 2550 was after I tweaked the primary air intake by surrounding it with tin foil and magnets, essentially making the opening smaller. After I did that the stove was amazing. (I left the EPA holes open on both stoves).





Burner said:


> Just my two cents....When I was running my 2550, my glass was never clean. It always had a dark coating on it, presumably creosote. But in all fairness, I burned the stove really low at 250 consistently. I didn't see flames unless it was to get the CAT up to temp. In fact, I didn't even know that these encores were capable of running with clean glass. The same goes for my Defiant 1945, except I run it at around 350 unless it's really cold then I crank it to 550. By the way, I have gotten incredible burn times from both of my VC's. The Defiant's stack is marginal but it must be ideal since it just went 16 hrs with plenty of coals left over to ignite rather large splits. The encore regularly got 10 hrs running at 200-250. Also, in my experience, these stoves aren't nearly as finicky as my new Oslo when it comes to wood moisture content. I can easily load 20%-25% splits without blinking into the VC's. However, the Oslo really wants 10%-15% or even lower to operate efficiently.  Despite the VC reputation on these forums, that am sure isn't without merit, I feel these are great Cat stoves. The 1945 is completely controllable and the 2550 was after I tweaked the primary air intake by surrounding it with tin foil and magnets, essentially making the opening smaller. After I did that the stove was amazing. (I left the EPA holes open on both stoves).



Burner,
When you say you run the encore 200-250 is this griddle? What is your flue temp at such point? Is the cat active at such low temp?


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## grobinson2 (Dec 24, 2013)

Wow, that just seems so hot to me.  I am used to coal stoves where I would run them around the 300 to 450 range for of course days with out touching them.  I am well aware that wood stoves are a different beast so we shall see.  I do wish I did not have to run the thing so hot though.  Thinking my best bet might be to move this one out and put in an Encore that is the 2-1 or get one of the non-cat models and convert it over to the 2-1.

Thanks again,
Glenn


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## Burner (Dec 24, 2013)

Diabel said:


> Burner,
> When you say you run the encore 200-250 is this griddle? What is your flue temp at such point? Is the cat active at such low temp?



That's griddle temp. To be honest I don't measure the flue with my Cat stoves, just with my Oslo (to see how much heat is being lost). For me, the Cats stay ignited at the low temps by using the smouldering smoke as fuel.


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## Diabel (Dec 24, 2013)

Burner said:


> That's griddle temp. To be honest I don't measure the flue with my Cat stoves, just with my Oslo (to see how much heat is being lost). For me, the Cats stay ignited at the low temps by using the smouldering smoke as fuel.



And there is no smoke out the chimney? My cat would stall 100% at such low griddle temp.


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## Burner (Dec 24, 2013)

Diabel said:


> And there is no smoke out the chimney? My cat would stall 100% at such low griddle temp.



My Defiant runs really clean which does surprise me and the 2550 has some smoke. Both Cats run at about 1300 deg for most of the burn.


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## BrowningBAR (Dec 24, 2013)

Burner said:


> My Defiant runs really clean which does surprise me and the 2550 has some smoke. Both Cats run at about 1300 deg for most of the burn.


Both stoves like to smoke for me. I can have the Defiant's cat glowing with think rolling secondaries and will still have smoke far too often. Pipe is way too dirty, also.


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## Burner (Dec 24, 2013)

BrowningBAR said:


> Both stoves like to smoke for me. I can have the Defiant's cat glowing with think rolling secondaries and will still have smoke far too often. Pipe is way too dirty, also.



I attribute some of the clean burn and low temps to the new Condar ceramic cats I installed recently. Here are a few pictures of the 1945 as it is currently burning:


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## Reckless (Dec 24, 2013)

grobinson2 said:


> Wow, that just seems so hot to me.  I am used to coal stoves where I would run them around the 300 to 450 range for of course days with out touching them.  I am well aware that wood stoves are a different beast so we shall see.  I do wish I did not have to run the thing so hot though.  Thinking my best bet might be to move this one out and put in an Encore that is the 2-1 or get one of the non-cat models and convert it over to the 2-1.
> 
> Thanks again,
> Glenn


Its all about what your primary is set to. I can have a GT of 350-400 and CT of 1500. I prefer really high GT to keep my 3000sqft home at or near 70.


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## jharkin (Dec 24, 2013)

Reckless said:


> Its all about what your primary is set to. I can have a GT of 350-400 and CT of 1500. I prefer really high GT to keep my 3000sqft home at or near 70.



Wow you are heating 3000ft2 with an encore?!  Wow. I'm at 1400 andit struggles when we see single digits...


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## Reckless (Dec 25, 2013)

jharkin said:


> Wow you are heating 3000ft2 with an encore?!  Wow. I'm at 1400 andit struggles when we see single digits...


At times its only a suppliment. Also you dont keep your GT up in the 700's!


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## Excavator (Dec 25, 2013)

Today in 18 degree weather I dug out some better dry oak.  I reloaded the 0028 Encore and waited a touch longer to engage the cat. My cat probe went to 450 as soon as I closed bypass and I watched the probe temp climb to 1400 to get nice and warm. Then I closed air down 50% and left it there while i put on coffee. Next thing I went back to stove and heard the cracking sound of stove getting hotter and WOW  The cat shot too 1900 and GT went to 800. This was the first time that I tried the OPEN DAMPER and see what happens. 
With in a minute the Cat probe came down to 1700 but I could tell the liner was getting a good cleaning with all the hot temps flying up there.
I kept the damper open for few minutes and air down. The Cat temp came down to 1350 so I closed the damper and all was good. I simply waited too long with dry oak and it took off but all seams good


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## 31 bertram (Dec 25, 2013)

Well, after reading this thread decided I needed to check my seconday damper control and looked like I needed to adjust the damper down a little and let me tell you that adjustment slot for the screwdriver was soooo small, about like eye glass tools, so I ended up taking the whole assembly off while messing up the threads on the end and breaking a screw off in the stove, this is really starting to look like last years season which was mostly dedicated to the total rebuild right in the middle of winter.  Here we go again plus being Holiday season will probably be back offshore before the new one makes it here.


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## BrowningBAR (Dec 26, 2013)

Back to the primary air controls. A few of you mentioned you were pretty sure the primary closes all the way. I just confirmed that it does not on the Defiant. In the midst of a climb where the Defiant topped out at 660 with the primary closed, I went back to cover the primary with aluminium foil. In the process of doing so, I blew out a match and watched the smoke. The smoke was easily and quickly drawn to the primary air opening even though the primary was "closed."

It is too close to the wall to get a good photo and to actually see it, but I felt around and confirmed that the flap is functioning properly, in place, and at its closed position.


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## grobinson2 (Dec 26, 2013)

I checked mine this evening as well and while the flapper door was "closed" there was enough of a leak around it to suck in some smoke.  On another note, I put way more wood in the stove then usual (about 3/4 full) and got the stove up to 500 when I closed the damper.  That stove started pumping heat out into the room.  I could see the CAT glowing a little behind the perforated piece of cast iron above the fire brick and I am assuming that was my cat lighting off.  Anyway, I closed off the primary air and it settled in at 500 F and was running great as I go to bed.  I also unblocked one of my EPA holes and the stove ran better this evening.  I still have the secondary blocked.

Merry Christmas,
Glenn


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## troopman (Dec 26, 2013)

Hi. My 2550's primary air flap does close all the way. I actually hear it click. The problem is that the flap itself is about 1/4 inch too small from the bottom lengthwise. This leaves a gap when fully closed. Does your primary air flap cover the entire opening or does it have this gap? Thanks!


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## Reckless (Dec 26, 2013)

troopman said:


> Hi. My 2550's primary air flap does close all the way. I actually hear it click. The problem is that the flap itself is about 1/4 inch too small from the bottom lengthwise. This leaves a gap when fully closed. Does your primary air flap cover the entire opening or does it have this gap? Thanks!


Mine appears to close completely. Whats everyones obsession with the primary closing completely? The ONLY time I could ever close it completely and not have secondary backpuffs is when in coal stage. A wise man told me one important tip about this stove, if it isnt operating correctly replace your gaskets and if that doesnt fix the problem replace them again  maybe jeremy didnt say all that but the point got across.


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## 31 bertram (Dec 26, 2013)

Yeah my secondary damper was around 1/2" open when cold. My primary flap will completely seal (no openings) when dampered down. It rose to 1000 in about 10 minutes after engaging the cat.  I am thinking my wood is way too dry.  Also thinking about changing the combustor since it's the original, 20 plus years but not much smoke when engaged, and looked good when visually inspected last year.


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## Reckless (Dec 26, 2013)

31 bertram said:


> Yeah my secondary damper was around 1/2" open when cold. My primary flap will completely seal (no openings) when dampered down. It rose to 1000 in about 10 minutes after engaging the cat.  I am thinking my wood is way too dry.  Also thinking about changing the combustor since it's the original, 20 plus years but not much smoke when engaged, and looked good when visually inspected last year.


The cat hit a 1000 in 10 min? It should be engaging in 5 and then you can back off primary.


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## 31 bertram (Dec 26, 2013)

Cat engaged at 600-primary closed temps went to 1000 for about 15 minutes or so.


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## Reckless (Dec 26, 2013)

31 bertram said:


> Cat engaged at 600-primary closed temps went to 1000 for about 15 minutes or so.


Im still missing what you mean. Do you have a probe and are these the readings from it? Or are these griddle temps (I hope your griddle isnt at 1000)


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## 31 bertram (Dec 26, 2013)

Yes, griddle temps, seems I am still getting air in from somewhere, even when dampered back.  Fully closed.


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## grobinson2 (Dec 26, 2013)

HOLY chit!  Griddle temp at 1000!


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## Reckless (Dec 26, 2013)

31 bertram said:


> Yes, griddle temps, seems I am still getting air in from somewhere, even when dampered back.  Fully closed.





grobinson2 said:


> HOLY chit!  Griddle temp at 1000!


Sounds like you have an air leak or a bad thermometer. Do you have a second thermometer to test it with? 1000GT is crazy hot. Let it cool down to coals and start checking gaskets with the dollar bill test.


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## 31 bertram (Dec 26, 2013)

Woooo, my mistake, it was a little over 700.  Sorry about that, I purchased a new condor stove top thermometer last year and with my old eyes read it wrong.  So it jumped up around 700-800 for a bit with everything dampered down and never choked down at all, with the windows clean the whole time.  I never put over three splits (usually two) in for fear of over firing.  Thanks


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## Reckless (Dec 26, 2013)

31 bertram said:


> Woooo, my mistake, it was a little over 700.  Sorry about that, I purchased a new condor stove top thermometer last year and with my old eyes read it wrong.  So it jumped up around 700-800 for a bit with everything dampered down and never choked down at all, with the windows clean the whole time.  I never put over three splits (usually two) in for fear of over firing.  Thanks


If I understand correctly you get GT of 700 with primary all the way down? I keep mine around 700 no problems (1/2-3/4 open primary), Cat temps are more important to me. My stove operates in two ways high GT and lower CT (day burns) or high CT and lower GT (overnight burns). High GT and High CT is a runaway stove and can lead to a overfire. If your stove is climbing that fast with the primary almost closed you have an air leak.


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## 31 bertram (Dec 26, 2013)

Thanks reckless, I'm gonna start checking gaskets again.  May get a probe and monitor the combustor too.


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## Reckless (Dec 26, 2013)

31 bertram said:


> Thanks reckless, I'm gonna start checking gaskets again.  May get a probe and monitor the combustor too.


Running these stoves with no probe is like putting a blind man in a maze..... seriously


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## grobinson2 (Dec 26, 2013)

Reckless said:


> Running these stoves with no probe is like putting a blind man in a maze..... seriously



hahhahaha  I agree.  I am ordering a probe tonight.


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## jharkin (Dec 27, 2013)

Again today, I have a LOT of smokeoutside, inspite of good probe temps of 1200+. I am beginning to think my brand new combustor is bad, or else these steelcats have problems ( there have been other threads about steelcat issues).

Browning, do you run steel or ceramic??


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## grobinson2 (Dec 27, 2013)

One of the guys at work tried a steel cat in his 1945.  He is a very experienced VC burner (started with the 1975 and then went cat back in the late 80's and now has been running a 1945 for four or five years) and got rid of it after about two weeks of issues.  He went back to the Condor ceramic cat and said it was like a breath of fresh air.  He liked that the steel cat would light off after just a few minutes but that was about the end of what he liked.  One of the things he did not like was the fact that he would still have smoke coming out of his chimney.

Thanks,
Glenn


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## jharkin (Dec 27, 2013)

Yes thanks Glenn Im getting very suspicious of the steelcat.  This is the second one that's acted this way... Curios what BBar uses as he has the same smoke problems I do.

I tried calling Condar just now but they are closed through New Years.  I am going to ask them to swap mine out for a Ceramic, see if that improves things.  (fingers crossed).


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## Reckless (Dec 27, 2013)

jharkin said:


> Yes thanks Glenn Im getting very suspicious of the steelcat.  This is the second one that's acted this way... Curios what BBar uses as he has the same smoke problems I do.
> 
> I tried calling Condar just now but they are closed through New Years.  I am going to ask them to swap mine out for a Ceramic, see if that improves things.  (fingers crossed).


This could be your mid burn stall problems too...... stupid new technology XD


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## Excavator (Dec 27, 2013)

When I rebuilt my 0028 I went back to ceramic and noticed much cleaner at chimney top


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## Burner (Dec 27, 2013)

I didn't have any luck with the steel cat either. I called condar and they promptly sent me a ceramic cat. Great customer service. The difference between the two was night and day.


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## Reckless (Dec 30, 2013)

Does anyone elses door gasket start shredding way too early? The top notch on the left door seems to take alot of damage from the right airwash screw. Maybe slight misalignment?


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## Burner (Dec 30, 2013)

Reckless said:


> Does anyone elses door gasket start shredding way too early? The top notch on the left door seems to take alot of damage from the right airwash screw. Maybe slight misalignment?



Mine seems ok. Don't know much about how to determine if it's misaligned though.


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## jharkin (Dec 30, 2013)

Mine seems fine as well, however I don't use the front door much.


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## Diabel (Dec 30, 2013)

I only use the front door on cold starts or when burning uglies that do not fit through the top. My griddle gasket is shredding however.


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## jharkin (Dec 30, 2013)

OK, in the calm before the storm   .... mid season pipe check.  I have bout an inch of creosote chips fallen into the cleanout.  Pipe has what looks to be about a 1/8" coating, mostly brownish at the bottom looking blacker up toward the top. I can see some flakes up top as well.  This is after only 3/4 cord or so 

This is worse than I was hoping for, but not as bad as last year.  I hope that I can get Condar to exchange my steelcat for a ceramic and that cleans things up.


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## Excavator (Dec 30, 2013)

jharkin  I think you have no choice but change the cat to ceramic.
I pulled my cleanout last week and was surprised how little i had since changing the cat back to ceramic and no smoke even keeping my secondary at 3 oclock position


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## Diabel (Dec 30, 2013)

jharkin said:


> OK, in the calm before the storm   .... mid season pipe check.  I have bout an inch of creosote chips fallen into the cleanout.  Pipe has what looks to be about a 1/8" coating, mostly brownish at the bottom looking blacker up toward the top. I can see some flakes up top as well.  This is after only 3/4 cord or so
> 
> This is worse than I was hoping for, but not as bad as last year.  I hope that I can get Condar to exchange my steelcat for a ceramic and that cleans things up.
> 
> ...



Jeremy
In my opinion the pipe looks ok. The bucket with the loose stuff on the other hand....
On my set up that loose stuff falls back on top of the refractory box and it just sits there. This year there is about 1/3 of a cup of the loose flakes. And this is on a limping stove needing a major overhaul.


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## BrowningBAR (Dec 30, 2013)

jharkin said:


> Yes thanks Glenn Im getting very suspicious of the steelcat.  This is the second one that's acted this way... Curios what BBar uses as he has the same smoke problems I do.
> 
> I tried calling Condar just now but they are closed through New Years.  I am going to ask them to swap mine out for a Ceramic, see if that improves things.  (fingers crossed).


Ceramic cats for both stoves. I would have responded sooner, but again, I was never alerted to this thread being updated.


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## Diabel (Dec 30, 2013)

I am a bit worried about my cap. More black stuff this year than in previous years. It has been very cold here since the end of Nov. and that pipe is quite exposed to the elements. The wood I have used so far is a bit questionable as well.
Time to clean I think..... Will wait for this cold front to pass.


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## BrowningBAR (Dec 30, 2013)

jharkin said:


> OK, in the calm before the storm   .... mid season pipe check.  I have bout an inch of creosote chips fallen into the cleanout.  Pipe has what looks to be about a 1/8" coating, mostly brownish at the bottom looking blacker up toward the top. I can see some flakes up top as well.  This is after only 3/4 cord or so
> 
> This is worse than I was hoping for, but not as bad as last year.  I hope that I can get Condar to exchange my steelcat for a ceramic and that cleans things up.


I'm not sure how much I have burned in the Defiant since I run multiple stoves, but I had about 4" of build up at the bottom of the tee in the chimney when I cleaned last weekend. It was less than this point last year, but but still far too much. There was not much buildup on the pipe or the cap. I have no idea where the 4" of flaky crap is coming from

Ceramic cat. Cat glows. Stove runs hot. Using the best fuel I have ever had. 

I still get smoke and I still get build up. The 30 had no build up and not much came out of the pipe. It uses the same fuel.


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## jharkin (Dec 30, 2013)

Excavator said:


> jharkin  I think you have no choice but change the cat to ceramic.
> I pulled my cleanout last week and was surprised how little i had since changing the cat back to ceramic and no smoke even keeping my secondary at 3 oclock position





Diabel said:


> Jeremy
> In my opinion the pipe looks ok. The bucket with the loose stuff on the other hand....
> On my set up that loose stuff falls back on top of the refractory box and it just sits there. This year there is about 1/3 of a cup of the loose flakes. And this is on a limping stove needing a major overhaul.




Agreed.  As soon as Condar reopens next week Im asking them to exchange mine for a ceramic.

The can of crap is the cleanout tee at the bottom of my stack.  Its a rear exit setup into a steel lined brick chimney.


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## grobinson2 (Dec 30, 2013)

Good evening Guys,
     I am trying to search these forums on my BlackBerry without much luck.  Can one of you please provide a link to where a parts list is located or info on how to make your own CAT probe thermometer?  I also wanted to see if any of you could answer the following questions:  Why did VC build the Cat Encore's with the air wash system mounted to the doors and with the external door latch and the non-cat stoves with the same type of air wash that a Defiant 1645 or 1610 would have along with the internal type door latch?  I ask because for one I always liked the look of the external door latch better and two it looks like the air wash system of the cat encores would just be more effeciant/better at keeping the glass clean as it would be forcing more of the primary combustion air over the glass as aposed to a Defiant or non-cat Encore.  What I am thinking of trying is get one non-cat Encore in good condition (at least the castings are still good, I don't care about the ceramics) and find one cat-encore just for parts.  Take both apart and mate the front door surround casting, doors and of course air wash system to the non-cat Encore.  Then convert the newly built stove to the newer 2-1 system by replacing the old ever burn system.  I know, I know...  Kind of nuts.  I work at a nuke plant and literally have twelve and a half hours to sit around and think about this kind of thing.  Do you guys think it would work?  Also as a side note, I just got my account with BAC so if you need any VC stuff let me know.  I think I get 38% off book price and would be more then happy to help you with parts or a stove if I can.

Thanks again,
Glenn


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## Diabel (Dec 30, 2013)

grobinson2 said:


> Good evening Guys,
> I am trying to search these forums on my BlackBerry without much luck.  Can one of you please provide a link to where a parts list is located or info on how to make your own CAT probe thermometer?  I also wanted to see if any of you could answer the following questions:  Why did VC build the Cat Encore's with the air wash system mounted to the doors and with the external door latch and the non-cat stoves with the same type of air wash that a Defiant 1645 or 1610 would have along with the internal type door latch?  I ask because for one I always liked the look of the external door latch better and two it looks like the air wash system of the cat encores would just be more effeciant/better at keeping the glass clean as it would be forcing more of the primary combustion air over the glass as aposed to a Defiant or non-cat Encore.  What I am thinking of trying is get one non-cat Encore in good condition (at least the castings are still good, I don't care about the ceramics) and find one cat-encore just for parts.  Take both apart and mate the front door surround casting, doors and of course air wash system to the non-cat Encore.  Then convert the newly built stove to the newer 2-1 system by replacing the old ever burn system.  I know, I know...  Kind of nuts.  I work at a nuke plant and literally have twelve and a half hours to sit around and think about this kind of thing.  Do you guys think it would work?  Also as a side note, I just got my account with BAC so if you need any VC stuff let me know.  I think I get 38% off book price and would be more then happy to help you with parts or a stove if I can.
> 
> Thanks again,
> Glenn



None of the castings would fit. Each model (on purpose) had all the castings made slightly different. Marketing thing...


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## grobinson2 (Dec 31, 2013)

Well crap.


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## jharkin (Dec 31, 2013)

Best way to start a cold NYE. 12f here this morning.  Happy that my glass so clean from an overnight low burn now . Unhappy that I had another cat stall last night 

Can't wait Condar to reopen and get a ceramic



Now all I have to do is motivate myself to go out, supposed to spend all  day outside today...


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## Excavator (Dec 31, 2013)

nice pic of that clean stove


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## grobinson2 (Jan 1, 2014)

Wow, your stove/fire looks great!  I have to figure something out with this air wash.  I unblocked the EPA air holes and have the stove running stock except for the secondary air being blocked off, and as soon as I close the damper the glass will be all blacked out except the very top in minutes.  I am running griddle temp of 450-500.  I still can't help but think that your air wash brackets located on the doors don't do a lot more to help keep soot off the glass then the way the Defiant or non-cat Encore's are designed.  I wish there was some way to add them to my Defiant.  I blew up the parts brake down of the Encore 2550 and my Defiant 1945 and the internal air wash system looks exactly the same.  Thus according to the paper work anyway the only thing different is that the Defiant does not have the door brackets (I am assuming the two are different sizes due to the external dimensions being different on each stove).

Happy New Year,
Glenn


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## jharkin (Jan 1, 2014)

With the snow and negative digits deep freeze approaching (-5f predicted Friday), i decided to break into the Hurricane Irene black locust stash.

Wow 

As we put dinner in the oven this afternoon i put 4 small chunks/uglies in. Got a good lite off then had to go out. 3 hours later i still had an active cat over 1100 on whats equiv to a two med split load.  Amazing.

I can't wait to run a full load of locust overnight!


----------



## Charles1981 (Jan 1, 2014)

Yea hrmm. When it is 20-25 degrees the stove (in the basement) has no problem keeping the upstairs ~70 which is great. This week it hasn't gotten above14 degrees during the day and tonight it is -5 degrees with a windchill of -15  and upstairs is only 66   Honestly though the baseboard heating if we had it on struggles to even keep the house at 63 degrees (and costs about 400$ a month) so can't complain much, but dang it is cold.


----------



## jharkin (Jan 1, 2014)

Update:

Im LOVING the locust.  I remember reading that it burns like coal but is really tought to get giong.  I am seeing the former but not the latter so far    I just kicked off a load with a couple oak splits and then all locust, cranking out the heat at 1350 cat temp 20 minutes later!

The one drawabck... That funky smell when you split it, even worse when it burns 

Edit: 30 min later cat is up to 1600 on fully closed primary. Oh boy...........

Edit:  45 min we are at 1650  ooooooooooo


----------



## jharkin (Jan 1, 2014)

Oh #&$%#%%#  1750 now.

Going on bypass to coo it off ....


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## jharkin (Jan 1, 2014)

OK less then 5 min of bypass dropped to 1350, reengage and its now at 1400.. 1500. I'm going to stay up and watch it for a half hour to make sure it doesnt climb over 1700 again then hit thehay.


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## Reckless (Jan 1, 2014)

jharkin said:


> OK less then 5 min of bypass dropped to 1350, reengage and its now at 1400.. 1500. I'm going to stay up and watch it for a half hour to make sure it doesnt climb over 1700 again then hit thehay.


Oh boy get that fire screen ready  Im sure you'll be fine


----------



## jharkin (Jan 1, 2014)

It went back to 1600 and climbing... So on a hunch I tried something.

Opened the bypass, lifted the lid and used my coal rake to kickdown the load. Now it settled in stable at 1200 ! But so much for slow burning locust, after 3 hr its half gone.


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## BrowningBAR (Jan 1, 2014)

jharkin said:


> But so much for slow burning locust, after 3 hr its half gone.


These stoves should get much longer burn times than they do.


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## Excavator (Jan 2, 2014)

Any time I see the cat temp hit above 1750 the wood just *disappears in few hours.*
I just have to monitor the cat temp when burning black locust or dry oak. I still believe it is the wood causing the high temps.
What was your griddle temp when this happened?


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## Reckless (Jan 2, 2014)

Excavator said:


> Any time I see the cat temp hit above 1750 the wood just *disappears in few hours.*
> I just have to monitor the cat temp when burning black locust or dry oak. I still believe it is the wood causing the high temps.
> What was your griddle temp when this happened?


I bet it wasnt in the 700 range. I hate where the cat throat is on this stove!! You really have to load this stove perfectly and either pile everything towards the front or completely try to block the opening to get good burns with good time and good heat.... BAD STOVE!! I told you not to eat all my locust!! I think Im getting a jotul next year to replace this stove and move this one to the basement OR Im just getting a wood fired boiler and say F#kc it. Stay warm boys and girls its getting COLD out!!


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## grobinson2 (Jan 2, 2014)

Would a stove pipe damper help with this?  Also when I started I was getting short burn times and kept hearing about long burn times.  My oak was about five years old and obviously very very dry.  I have it stored in my basement in 290gal totes so I dumped water all over it and let it soak for a few days.  Now I get 10 hours or so out of a load with out any issues.

Thanks,
Glenn


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## Excavator (Jan 2, 2014)

I find it easier to mix some greener wood with the very dry wood to get longer burn times


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## Burner (Jan 2, 2014)

Excavator said:


> I find it easier to mix some greener wood with the very dry wood to get longer burn times


I find that wood with an MC of 20 - 25 percent gives me about 12 hour burn times at 450 gt, with 16 hours not unheard of. I am burning mostly red oak. Cat temps are also a non issue. When I load something like kiln dried wood the cat can skyrocket to 1800 easily. This is with about 450 gt also. The stove temps also run hotter at the same setting and I lose some control since when I close it down the temps get up there. I also notice that burn times are also shorter. Either way she runs clean at the stack with both wood types.Oh I forget to mention that this is with my 1945 Defiant but the 2550 ran similar. However, it did blow a little bit more smoke. I can't be certain but the path way to the cat in the 2550 doesn't have a grill to cause turbulence like the 1945. With the 2550 the path is unimpeded. Also on both, the path to the catalyst is very short. Not sure how it is on say the Blaze Kings or wood stocks but I know on the Jotul Firelight 12 the path was much more convoluted. The smoke would have to travel through the rear burn plate then down to the bottom of the stove to the refractory opening and then up through the cat then down again. The firelight seemed to burn a little cleaner than the VC stoves and it also had a bit better burn times even though the firebox was smaller.


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## jharkin (Jan 2, 2014)

Reckless said:


> I bet it wasnt in the 700 range. I hate where the cat throat is on this stove!! You really have to load this stove perfectly and either pile everything towards the front or completely try to block the opening to get good burns with good time and good heat.... BAD STOVE!! I told you not to eat all my locust!! I think Im getting a jotul next year to replace this stove and move this one to the basement OR Im just getting a wood fired boiler and say F#kc it. Stay warm boys and girls its getting COLD out!!



It wasnt... I dont recall exactly but not over 550F.  I could have opened up the primary air to bring down the cat temp but I didnt need the heat.  I wanted low and slow.

On the bright side, I had a great coal bed and nice clean glass at 7am.  

I need to be careful with this locust.  Especially tomorrow night when we hit negative digits.


----------



## Reckless (Jan 2, 2014)

jharkin said:


> It wasnt... I dont recall exactly but not over 550F.  I could have opened up the primary air to bring down the cat temp but I didnt need the heat.  I wanted low and slow.
> 
> On the bright side, I had a great coal bed and nice clean glass at 7am.
> 
> I need to be careful with this locust.  Especially tomorrow night when we hit negative digits.


Yea when I  loaded up with white oak the other day it tried to take off on me. Its the nature of the stove I guess and there isnt any mods we can do unless making a partial block off plate for the cat opening to restrict air flow to it (that would probably blow the stove up LOLOL)


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## jharkin (Jan 2, 2014)

Yeah it a learning curve every time with this beast... New wod species = new technique. Part of the problem last night was I put in a few big splits then filled in chunks to pack it. All the small chunks got it going to fast.

This afternoon I put a half load of 4 big locust splits in at 3pm, then ran hot about half air for almost 2 hours then turned it down low, now at 4 hours I still have 1350 cat temp. Amazing. In mild weather I'd probably get 10 hours of usable heat on this load.

I'm hoping my stash this year will stretch. Till now I've been burning light stuff like maple and have used half my wood. It was looking like I wouldn't make it to Feb but the rest of my stash is now all Locust, Oak and Ash.


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## Reckless (Jan 2, 2014)

jharkin said:


> Yeah it a learning curve every time with this beast... New wod species = new technique. Part of the problem last night was I put in a few big splits then filled in chunks to pack it. All the small chunks got it going to fast.
> 
> This afternoon I put a half load of 4 big locust splits in at 3pm, then ran hot about half air for almost 2 hours then turned it down low, now at 4 hours I still have 1350 cat temp. Amazing. In mild weather I'd probably get 10 hours of usable heat on this load.
> 
> I'm hoping my stash this year will stretch. Till now I've been burning light stuff like maple and have used half my wood. It was looking like I wouldn't make it to Feb but the rest of my stash is now all Locust, Oak and Ash.


Ash is my favorite thing to burn in this stove right now. On 4 decent pieces I get 4-6 hours of GOOD heat at 1350-1450 cat and 6-700 GT....... heaven


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## jharkin (Jan 2, 2014)

I have another full load of locust in, but this time I used just 5 or 6 huge splits. This one is cruising nicely at 1200 cat 2 hours in with -1f outside.  Must have just been how I loaded it last night....

Freakin unpredictable beast........


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## jharkin (Jan 3, 2014)

Update - last nights locust load never went over 1300, and now this morning I have a mixed load of locust and oak in and again its cruising nice around 1200.   The key was remembering my own lesson - for big loads on cold days use only BIG splits.

I do LOVE that locust.  Now I wish I had more than a measly half cord of it....


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## Reckless (Jan 3, 2014)

jharkin said:


> Update - last nights locust load never went over 1300, and now this morning I have a mixed load of locust and oak in and again its cruising nice around 1200.   The key was remembering my own lesson - for big loads on cold days use only BIG splits.
> 
> I do LOVE that locust.  Now I wish I had more than a measly half cord of it....


Use sparingly.... by the looks of it I may run out of seasoned wood before the end of feb. I have 3/4 of a cord of ash that is mostly seasoned that I should probably start mixing in now


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## jharkin (Jan 3, 2014)

I'll be out by Feb also, don't feel bad.

In good news, I talked to Condar, they are sending me a ceramic cat no questions asked. They even said to wait for the new one before sending the steel back. Good company.


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## BrowningBAR (Jan 4, 2014)

Burning hardwood for the first time this season with the cold spell we are having. The Defiant's glass is staying remarkable clean. Both, the 30 and the Defiant have had really clean glass all season.

The Encore gets sooted up more than the other two. Two dark patches on the Encore right now.


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## Reckless (Jan 4, 2014)

BrowningBAR said:


> Burning hardwood for the first time this season with the cold spell we are having. The Defiant's glass is staying remarkable clean. Both, the 30 and the Defiant have had really clean glass all season.
> 
> The Encore gets sooted up more than the other two. Two dark patches on the Encore right now.


Usually far left and right near the door hinges? I get a spot or two sometimes either there or right infront of the andirons but they disappear pretty quickly.

So the wife had me put away the fans I use to move heat for the holidays AND THANK GOD the holidays are over!! House has gone from 63 to 68 in about 10 min!! LR where the stove is always sits around 68-70 but heat doesnt move well in this big house. Stay warm everyone!!


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## BrowningBAR (Jan 4, 2014)

Nope. Dead center on the left door and half of the right door.


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## Charles1981 (Jan 4, 2014)

Finally had to cover the 4 bay windows with heavy blankets last night. -8 degrees outside last night with -20 windchill and couldn't get the upstairs higher than 65degrees. Covered windows helped upstairs get to 67. It is 25 today and upstairs soared to 73 . 

I can't believe how much a difference the negative temperatures and wind affect the ability to keep the house warm. There is definitely a point at about 5-10 degrees above zero the encore really starts to suffer and only heats the basement efficiently.


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## Reckless (Jan 6, 2014)

54 today and 0 tonight.... WTF


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## Diabel (Jan 6, 2014)

Crazy! 
41 at the moment
Calling for -11 for tonight
Windchill -40
Trying to heat up the house as much as possible right now. The encore will need the help of NG in the morning however.


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## Reckless (Jan 6, 2014)

Diabel said:


> Crazy!
> 41 at the moment
> Calling for -11 for tonight
> Windchill -40
> Trying to heat up the house as much as possible right now. The encore will need the help of NG in the morning however.


Yea Im figuring Ill fire up around noon and get this place up to 80 or so.


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## Reckless (Jan 8, 2014)

Stove is misbehaving with this super high winds UGH But anyway Im starting to wonder, how does one differentiate between smoke and steam? I always thought that steam dissipated faster but I think I have something confused. Right now Cat 1400 and all I see from the stack is heat waves earlier when I first loaded I wasnt paying attention and let the stove on bypass too long (kinda 6-700 gt) I closed the bypass and watched it go to 1550 or so in 10min went outside to check and what appear to be "steam" was coming from the stack but I still smelt a little smoke........


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## begreen (Jan 8, 2014)

Steam clouds are white and quickly dissapate. Smoke is grey or black and tends to lings much longer.


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## Charles1981 (Jan 8, 2014)

With the negative temperatures I've never seen as much steam from my stove, its been pretty crazy. It has been very white in color no grey appearance...

I finally got on top of my roof today (i had to shovel 17 inches of snow off...worst job ever) I could see some areas were ice dams might become a problem and with temperatures warming up over the next 2-3 days really needed to get it off the roof. I took some pictures of the chimney and shot some pictures down the liner I will post later to get everyone's opinion (might actually be a new thread). But based on what I see I am headed out to the depot to get a sweep kit tonight and gunna sweep tomorrow (nothing terrible but definitely the brown flaky creosote buildup in the liner).


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## Diabel (Jan 8, 2014)

Yup, lots of white smoke/steam when we have anything below -20*C

I will be cleaning the pipe this weekend! And if it makes anyone feel better.....shoveling 30" of crusted snow off my upper deck (just can't wait).....


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## jharkin (Jan 9, 2014)

I'm happy to report that other than that first load I have not had a repeat of problems with locust loads.  I'm really loving that stuff, truly amazing how much longer a load will maintain active catalyst temps  vs the mix of maple and lighter hardwoods I was burning earlier, or even than oak.  I'll be sad when I use it all up!

On the downside, the extreme cold snap really makes the poor wall insulation and window draftiness in this old joint stand out.  My  wife is not happy that its toasty by the stove but cool sitting on the couch by the wall in the TV den or in the bedroom and would rather we just shut it down and crank up the central heat so all the radiators along the outside walls pump out heat.


In other news, I got a notice Condar shipped my ceramic cat, It should arrive next Monday.  Weather outlook is calling for 40s and 50s through the middle of next week at least and we are going out of the town the weekend of the 18th so not sure when I'll get to test it out.


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## Diabel (Jan 9, 2014)

I only use my BL for overnights when it is really cold (like last week) and still I will mix it with something else. 
I treat my BL like fine wine for special ocassions I have about 1/2 cord (4yr. old) left and will be sad when it is all used. Also, I don't scrounge anymore. Few years ago I bought few lake front acres with an idea to build a house some day. There, all I have is birch (all kinds), beech, maple (some sugar), few other spiecies and crap load of hemlock.


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## BrowningBAR (Jan 9, 2014)

I've used a lot of pine this year in my attempt to build up my future supplies of hardwood. I will go throw 5 cord of pine this winter but I am switching to hardwood when temps drop. I have some big ass splits of, what I think is, Osage-orange. Thought it was Black Locust at first, but after further reading, I think it is Osage.

I LOVE pine. It's light, so my wife has no problem loading stoves or bringing in a big wheel barrow full of pine. The hardwood, especially the big splits can be challenging. Some of the splits are 20 lbs and takes some effort to place them in and rearrange them as needed.

The pine comes up to temp very quickly which is also nice as it minimizes the time needed to tend to the stoves. I also like how little ash is produced. I went a month without removing ash (I don't use the ash pans on the VC stoves. I keep them full of ash and just shove out ash from the firebox.)

I have been burning the Osage the last week with the cold spell we, and most of North America, have had. I have some really large splits. Heavy, big and thick. Sometimes three splits is all that will fit in the Defiant and the 30. The Encore gets the smaller splits mixed in with some pine since I do not have a lot of small splits of the Osage.

The Defiant just finish 11 hours of stove temps above 350. The 30 did 12 hours. The stove temps were lower on the 30, but the blower allowed me to use the lower temps to still keep the room above 70.

The Encore did 8 hours, but I did not reload the stove. I will restart the stove around 4:30 - 5:30 to bring that area up to temp before my wife arrives home.

The glass on both stoves have stayed a LOT cleaner this year as each year my wood supply improves. I only occasionally dry wipe the stoves to remove fly ash build up. Any dark spots that appear after an overnight burn have been coming off with the day time burns.

Still wish the Defiant was more controllable. Still wish the VC stoves were more efficient. But, I can't complain. They heat the home and provide decent burn times when needed.


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## Diabel (Jan 9, 2014)

From Mid Oct to the end of Nov all I used was spruce and pine (dead for yrs). It burnt hot but fast. By the end of Nov I was getting tired of reloading every 3-4 hrs. And I only work one stove.....
I think I emptied the ash pan twice during that period. That was nice.


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## BrowningBAR (Jan 9, 2014)

With a decent load, I was getting 5-7 hours from the Defiant and the 30. During the weekday, when temps were above 40, I am only running one stove (huge difference from previous years)

So, loading one stove every 5-7 hours sure as hell beats loading and tending to three stoves all day.

This winter is so much nicer. When the super cold temps come I can look at the 10 day forecast and know that in a few days I will be back to loading fewer stoves and less often.

Previous years, it was always three stoves, just more often when chit got cold. That grew tiresome.


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## Diabel (Jan 9, 2014)

BrowningBAR said:


> With a decent load, I was getting 5-7 hours from the Defiant and the 30. During the weekday, when temps were above 40, I am only running one stove (huge difference from previous years)
> 
> So, loading one stove every 5-7 hours sure as hell beats loading and tending to three stoves all day.
> 
> ...



I remember reading your threads from few years back.... Working three stoves 24/7, it appeared to be a full time job.


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## BrowningBAR (Jan 9, 2014)

By the end of January I was usually ready to burn the house down and collect the insurance money.


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## jharkin (Jan 13, 2014)

Well, I got a present in the mail from Condar today!  But with temps in the 50s and projected to stay mild all week I dont get the chance to test it.

On the bright side with mild weather and a cold stove it was easy to swap out  SS cat looks in good condition visually but back it goes.

Heres hoping no more stalls and smoke with the new one


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## BrowningBAR (Jan 13, 2014)

Good luck.


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## Excavator (Jan 13, 2014)

you will be better now


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## Diabel (Jan 13, 2014)

Treat it right. It will serve you long....


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## jharkin (Jan 13, 2014)

I certainly hope so guys...2 problematic  stainless cats in 4 years, if switching back to ceramic makes all the problems go away I will be thrilled... Right after I scream and punch a hole in the wall


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## Excavator (Jan 13, 2014)

jharkin said:


> I certainly hope so guys...2 problematic  stainless cats in 4 years, if switching back to ceramic makes all the problems go away I will be thrilled... Right after I scream and punch a hole in the wall



I took off my cleanout cup again in these warm days and looked like i shook a little pepper from a shaker


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## grobinson2 (Jan 13, 2014)

Looking forward to hearing how your new cat works for you!  Just ordered a new VC Defiant for my self and a guy at work.  I will of course report how mine at least turns out.

Thanks,
Glenn


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## grobinson2 (Jan 14, 2014)

Hey Guys, I do not know this gentleman but I did e-mail him about his VC for sale.  I am from PA but if closer I would snatch it up in a heart beat.  He is an old 35 year VC burner and will practically give this stove away to someone that would give it a good home.  I thought if one of you lived up near him you may be interested.

http://nh.craigslist.org/hsh/4279783667.html

Thanks,
Glenn


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## BrowningBAR (Jan 14, 2014)

Pretty much the same deal I got on my VC back in February of '12. I'd easily do that trip if I needed a stove.


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## grobinson2 (Jan 15, 2014)

How many of you guys have installed a manual pipe damper with your VC stove?  I have excessive wind at times and with the 35+ foot chimney I can get some crazy draft.  When I was burning coal stoves in the same chimney I always used an MPD and it worked great but I was not sure of using it on the wood stove.

Thanks,
Glenn


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## Diabel (Jan 15, 2014)

No damper here. But I only have 22' pipe


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## BrowningBAR (Jan 16, 2014)

grobinson2 said:


> How many of you guys have installed a manual pipe damper with your VC stove?  I have excessive wind at times and with the 35+ foot chimney I can get some crazy draft.  When I was burning coal stoves in the same chimney I always used an MPD and it worked great but I was not sure of using it on the wood stove.
> 
> Thanks,
> Glenn


My Defiant would probably benefit from it at certain times. But, I do not have one installed.


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## Excavator (Jan 16, 2014)

None here. My observation the last few months has been that my dryier  wood just burns too hot and I have too turn down air supply sooner than I am a custom too since adding the ss insulated liner and new ceramic cat


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## 31 bertram (Jan 16, 2014)

After reading this thread I found 2 problems with my 2550 that I think was the culprit in causing my stove to overfire.  I found one of the new gaskets that did'nt pass the dollar bill test and I suspect the secondary damper probe has not worked for years.  I replaced both today and she's doing very well so far.  Thanks for all the help by the good people here on the forum.


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## jharkin (Jan 19, 2014)

Well I think we have a winner!

It was mild last week and the wife and I got away for a weekend without the kids in Boston, but today when I got back it was in the low 30s so I fired her up to try out the new ceramic cat with a small load. Right now Im waiting on a reload to heat up.

Observations:

Lightoff is more sluggish than steel (expected)
-After it lights, the probe temp climbs slower.  Wheras the steel would shoot to 1100 in a minute or two the ceramic takes 5min+ to slowly climb to 900, then very slow rise to 1000+  

By the time the probe got to 800 or so there was minimal visible smoke outside (big improvement vs. steel)

I'll need more time to know for sure and have to relearn my habits a bit but the first fire is definately promising.  The slower lightoff is a small tradeoff for having smoke free stack at much lower temps than the steel, and the slower rise in temp might be a sign that this is going to be more controllable and less prone to runaway.. ??


I caught a few stack shots.  
First is a couple minuts after lightoff @ 900F probe. Second is 10 min in @ 1000, 30 min in @ 1150, and then midload ~ hour+ @ 1550F.







Now if only the Pats had done so well


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## jharkin (Jan 21, 2014)

Ok so with a big storm moving in this afternoon /eve thats threatening Blizzard conditions an hour south of here, decided to work from home today 

With 12F temps I lit up the stove again this morning.  This time I let it get a lot hotter before engaging and was rewarded with a much faster lightoff and stabilizing at 1400 cat temp at 1/4 air with a lot of flame in the box and a very strong 650F griddle temp.  The beast is reallllllly cranking out the heat right now.

Walked outside to take out the trash and I got quite the plume of steam coming out of the stack but its dissipating, so I think its just the water cooking out of the wood in the early stages of the burn.  

Still too early to make a ceramic vs. steel verdict but I should get a good test the next couple days, including a big overnight burn tonight with lows near zero.

One thing I noticed even with the steel thats probably more important now.... I dont have a true stack thermo but I do have a surface thermometer on the single wall pipe just past the flue collar (only place I can see one). Its seems the magic formula for lightoff is when that one gets over 400, telling me my flue gasses are good and hot.  That doesn't always correspond with 500 griddle.


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## jharkin (Jan 21, 2014)

EDIT - Found out next day a piece of carbon was jamming the primary open. fixed and back to normal. See #309
------------


Holy $#%(&$%(@%%  Batman this thing is cooking us out of the house.  Its burning like a blast furnace,  13 out and I have it closed down but its got the living room over 80.

Either the ceramic is burning a heck of a lot more efficient or I suddenly have a leak.  I doubt that it would just leak without warning.


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## Diabel (Jan 21, 2014)

The temps dropped like a rock here last night. When I was reloading at 11:30pm (2 pieces of large and sexy four yr old hard/sugar maple and on top of that two pieces of even nicer three yr old BL) the stove took off like crazy. Shot her down 15min after reaload. 30 min later I looked outside at he pipe and it was steaming like a steam train

-15f with -28f wind this morning.

This morning at 8:30am this was my old limping stove


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## 31 bertram (Jan 21, 2014)

Good info, I'm gonna need to put some more money in mine also with a cat and the thermometer prode to keep a better check on what's going on.  It was great to get my 2550 to where it is performing much better.  Weather report is saying upper 20's tonight along the Al. Gulf Coast and we should be toasty.  Although I have gone round and round with my 2550 the past 2 yrs. they are beautiful stoves and overall have not had that many problems when you consider I've had it well over 20 years.


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## jharkin (Jan 21, 2014)

Yes, when they work right they are amazing.  I think that the load Ive got in there now has got to be one of the most intence loads Ive ever run. 3 hours in and Ive been averaging 650-700 griddle the entire time and have the livin room hotter than ever.. hotter than I can stand.  

I hope its just running hot because of the fact I had started a fresh fire from a cold stove with a lot of little pieces and hen threw a couple of big ones on top before engaging... too much small wood and very strong draft.


----------



## jharkin (Jan 21, 2014)

So second load of the day.... the coal bed from earlier had really burned down by the time the house cooled, loaded 4 really big heavy splits this time and it took a long time to come up to temp again (griddle had dropped to 250ish).  I engaged early at 450 griddle after 40 min, it took a while then lit off and very slowly climbed to temp. At 30 min in the cat temp is up around 900 and its cooking along, though griddle dropped back down to 400.

Now its starting to settle into a groove and heat up again.  Just took a while with the denser load. So I guess this mornings blast furnace was all due to lots of little splits. 

The ceramic is definitely slower to react than the old steel, but I am seeing relatively clear exhaust even with lower cat temps under 1000. The steel would have been belching smoke still at this point.


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## jharkin (Jan 21, 2014)

Well 3 hours from reloading now and again it has climbed to 650F griddle and 1600 cat.   This ceramic definately reacts differently than the steel.  I think I need to work on a new routine for leading so I get a good solid initial lightoff without getting the endire load blazing, because even though it does it slower it just keeps climbing off and then burns tooooooo fast.


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## jharkin (Jan 21, 2014)

Talking to myself a bit, but I want to keep this documented for later...

Around 5 I put in 3 small splits to carry the heat till I was ready for hte night load.  It got going and I engaged at 450F griddle.. After a few minutes the cat lit and hten very slowly climbed to 1000 over about 30 minutes.  Then once it got going goot it kept climbing to a peak of 1550 then dropped back to 1300 and held htat for another hour.  All total over 2 hours of strong active cat on just 3 splits.  Once it gets to 1500 the secondarys go nuts and the griddle temp climbed to 650 again.  Again I didnt see any major smoke even at the low cat temps.

So I'm seeing a pattern, the ceramic is more sluggish to light and climbs temp a LOT slower than steel, but it hits and holds higher cruising temps, and puts out MUCH more heat. What I cant rule out is how the dry locust, very cold temp draft and just a hypersensitive brand new cat are impacting this behavior.


For the night load I made two changes to the routine... #1 I mixed in about 1/3 ash and maple to the load, and #2 (a first for me) I blocked off one of the 2 epa holes with foil.  I hope that slows the beast down a little.  Report in the morning.


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## jharkin (Jan 21, 2014)

Well, frankly I don't know what to think now. Again it did the very slow climb to 1000, then kept going all the way to 1700+ I ended up plugging both epa holes, and did the open bypass dump heat trick, but it still wants to climb and secondaries like mad in the firebox.

I'm afraid to go to sleep with it at 1750 so I resorted to dumping a big load of ashes all over the load. That slowed it down and now the flames are low and the cat is at 1550.

What do you guys think? Just a combination of brand new cat dry wood and really cold night.... Or do I open it up to check for a newly developed leak?


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## Diabel (Jan 21, 2014)

These stoves tend to burn each load differently. I experience it a lot. You just can't replicate your good previous burn/load. Leak... highly unlikely.


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## Charles1981 (Jan 22, 2014)

I like to put two small splits on the coal bed when reloading. They light off almost immediately. Then I try to put a monster split on top of the two smaller ones. Then I finally place two small rounds on the very top near the height of the griddle. I find this gives me the longest consistent burn, but not always the most heat.

If I want lots of heat now or need to build up the coal bed quickly if we slept in too long I just throw in all small stuff and watch the stove very carefully.


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## 31 bertram (Jan 22, 2014)

After changing the griddle gast and replacing the secondary damper probe last night I loaded it up about 3/4 full with good bed of coals and once the cat was engaged and dampered back it stayed around 650 for maybe 3 or 4 hrs. and slowly dropped.  Alot better with the new damper probe..


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## jharkin (Jan 22, 2014)

Thanks for the inputs, but Ive had this stove for 5 years, I know its habits, and this just doesnt feel right.  It was just burning WAAY to hot, new cat or no.

This morning the stove was cold.  It had burned completely out overnight with very little coals left by 6am.  Its never done that before.


So trusting my instincts I cleaned things up and began checking everything over.  Did the dollar bill test, everything seems ok except for the bottom of the left door which was marginal, but its always been that way.  Then I looked at the back
*
And thats when I found the problem.*

The primary air door was stuck half open!  there was some coals or soot stuck in there, maybe junk fallen down from the summer rebuild I didnt fully clean out that migrated down.  Took me a while sweeping it out with a small paintbrush but I eventually got it to seat.


WOW. I'm lucky the thing didn't go nuclear and warp on me. Also might explain why the cat temps would rise slow, it was running wide open and burning most of hte smoke in the firebox the entire time.

I have some work meetings now but will fire up again at lunch and report.



Sometimes you just have to trust your instincts...  I'll have to remember to go back there and look at the primary if it ever acts up again...


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## jharkin (Jan 22, 2014)

All is right in the world now, cat came up to temp much faster and I have control again. Closing the air kills the flame in the box as it should and probe temp is staying under 1500. Yay!


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## 31 bertram (Jan 22, 2014)

Sounds good, maybe you will do well tonight.  Keep us posted.


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## wood-engineer (Jan 22, 2014)

Just read thru this entire thread.  Great stuff!  I've been running a 2550 for the last 10 years & have had many of the same issues discussed here.  Tried the steel cat for a while, was very happy to get back to the ceramic.  Started running cat probes 5 years back or so & I agree that it is a must have for this stove.  I did notice some talk about the primary not closing, and it just being brought up with Jeremy's recent issue.  I want to share some knowledge on this subject, because it was a problem that plagued me for years.  I think it could be a problem for a lot of you that have fire control issues.

As you slowly move your primary air control from open to shut, you should hear the primary flap shut.  You shouldn't have to move it rapidly to hear the flap shut.  If you don't hear it, do the following.  1.  Move the primary air control fully closed.  2.  Lay on your back with a flashlight and observe the flapper.  You should be able to push the valve open with your finger and slowly let it close, and it should rest on its seat.  It it very critical that it go completely closed & stay there, because if it does not go completely closed - there will be times when you will not be able to shut your stove down when it is loaded with dry wood!  Just like Jeremy was experiencing recently.  

On my stove, it came from the factory with the valve not able to fully close.  It was very difficult to control, and there were times when loaded with dry wood when I could not bring the cat temp below 1500F.  As many of you know, the primary air bi-metalic coil (located behind the primary control handle) has a steel cable attached to it.  This cable runs down the side of the stove & is connected to the primary air valve.  The air valve has a wire, about the thickness of a clothes hanger, that runs behind the inside of the stove to pick up the movement of this cable.  The cable is threaded thru a loop in this wire & terminates in the air valve.  On my stove, this wire was bent incorrectly from the factory.  When the cable would go slack (hot stove) and try to shut the air valve, the wire loop would come in contact with stove casting and would not let the valve close!   You could close the valve with your fingers, but the wire would act as a spring and open the valve about 5 degrees off the seat when you let go.  When I finally figured out this problem, I had to bend the wire about 15 degrees to correct the problem.  Then, the valve could shut completely and it was like having a brand new stove.  With the EPA holes plugged, you could just about put the fire out (even with bone dry wood) if you shut the primary's down.

Another issue is broken off cement can fall under this "valve wire loop" and prevent it from closing. I have had this problem as well.  I take out the primary air valve (by removing the 2 phillips screws) and tape a 1/2" flexible tube to my vacuum cleaner  hose.  You fish this tube in the back of your stove and suck out this debris. 

Hope this helps some of you!  It's 0F here in northern Michigan & I'm lovin' the fire.


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## jharkin (Jan 23, 2014)

31 bertram said:


> Sounds good, maybe you will do well tonight.  Keep us posted.



It ran great.  It was burning well all afternoon so at 8pm with a good 3in coal bed I loaded it full, 2 medium ash splits at the bottom then packed to the gills with locust.  It only took 15 min to char good, shut down and it litoff and straight away climbed over 1k as I lowered the air in stages.  By 8:45 I was cruising at minimum air with 450 griddle/1200 cat.  Outside temp was 8F.

When I went to bed before 11 the griddle was 400 and the cat was up to 1300. Nothing but a glowing coal bed ans some small wispy blue flame in the bottom of the box.

Overnight the central heat kicked on a few times to supplement, and the stove just kept cooking. When I got up for work at 6am, the griddle temp was still 375, cat at 700 and the fire had burned down to a large pile of hot coals.  I didn't bother loading up and just opened the air to let it burn down as Ill be out all day and the natgas will maintain the house.  So I got 10 hours of decent heat there, and probably could have managed to rekindle a new load at 12 hours.

I realize that having the primary stuck the other day was just compounding problems.  It was overfiring, but then also the house overheat so bad that I would let it practically go cold between loads and then have no coals and have to push it harder to light off a new cycle, just making the odds of another meltdown worse.  SOOOO glad to have it back to normal.  OTOH, it showed me this thing has the power to heat the house to 80 on an windy 10F day if I want too 






wood-engineer said:


> Just read thru this entire thread.  Great stuff!  I've been running a 2550 for the last 10 years & have had many of the same issues discussed here.  Tried the steel cat for a while, was very happy to get back to the ceramic.  Started running cat probes 5 years back or so & I agree that it is a must have for this stove.  I did notice some talk about the primary not closing, and it just being brought up with Jeremy's recent issue.  I want to share some knowledge on this subject, because it was a problem that plagued me for years.  I think it could be a problem for a lot of you that have fire control issues.
> 
> As you slowly move your primary air control from open to shut, you should hear the primary flap shut.  .......



Welcome wood engineer. Thats great info thanks for sharing.   When I rebuilt mine in spite of rags I did get some debris falling back there but I thought I had it all vacuumed out.  Looks like I missed some which stuck mine open.


 I know a few other posters here have reported their primary never closes all the way and they have to resort to things like plugging the EPA holes for control.  Worth a check of that linkage guys.


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## grobinson2 (Jan 29, 2014)

The new Defiant 1975 arrived during the snow storm on the 21st without any issues and although the wife was not too happy I was able to get it in the house and set up with out too much snow coming in the door.  Of course the exterior of the unit looks about the same as my previous 1945 but as soon as I opened the doors it was a completely different animal.  First of all I would have to say that VC has diffidently stepped up there game when it comes to there quality control as everything from there castings to the refectory was spot on.  All bolts are stainless and appear to have been coated with anti-seize grease.  They have done away with the non-reversible glass for the doors and the front door latching mechanism is completely different with a roller bearing that engages the door jam.  This is very smooth and locks up tighter then what was possible with my 1945.  The stove does not run away on you like my 1945 would do but it also does not take off as fast as my 1945 and so takes a while to come up to temp.  I have burned it with and with out the cat and while I like the burns better with the cat the doors will coke up with in a day or two if I am running the stove at 500 or less.  So over all I am very pleased with the unit except for two things:  The heat shield is a royal pain in the ass as it hides everything.  I would normally just remove it but unlike on the 1945 the back of the 1975 is really ugly and they did not paint it (something I could easily fix of course) but the wife will not allow the stove to sit in our living room with out the heat shield.  The second is the griddle handle.  It is like the 2550 Encore in that it goes up and out where the 1945 was strait out.  This is not as handy and hits the pipe if you have the stove setup in a top vent.  I have attached pictures as I have seen very few shots of these stoves on the forums.

Thanks,
Glenn


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## grobinson2 (Jan 29, 2014)

More pics...


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## jharkin (Jan 29, 2014)

Nice looking Defiant there Glenn, welcome to the discussion!

What do you think about the durability of the hard cast refractory so far ? The one concern Ive heard about these models is getting cracks if you hamfirst the wood in there...


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## Diabel (Jan 29, 2014)

Yes, very nice stove.
It is interesting what you say about the griddle handle hitting the pipe in open position.... It just does not make sense.


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## 31 bertram (Jan 29, 2014)

Congrats on the stove, is this a new unit, are they (VC) still making stoves?


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## grobinson2 (Jan 29, 2014)

The cast refractory is light years a head of the soft refractory from the 1945.  It is so thick and heavy that I would have to really smash a piece of wood or a poker into the front of it to get it to brake.



jharkin said:


> What do you think about the durability of the hard cast refractory so far ? The one concern Ive heard about these models is getting cracks if you hamfirst the wood in there...




I will attach a picture below that shows what I am talking about in reference to the griddle handle hitting the top discharge pipe.



Diabel said:


> It is interesting what you say about the griddle handle hitting the pipe in open position.... It just does not make sense.




This is a new unit and they are pumping out stoves faster then ever before.  Mine was made in KY though not VC, or at least that is where it was shipped from and what is engraved into the back of the stove.



31 bertram said:


> Congrats on the stove, is this a new unit, are they (VC) still making stoves?




Thanks for the comps guys, I really do like it.

Glenn


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## BrowningBAR (Jan 29, 2014)

If I had the handle extender on my Defiant, it would also touch the pipe. Mine is an older cat model.


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## jharkin (Jan 29, 2014)

grobinson2 said:


> This is a new unit and they are pumping out stoves faster then ever before.  Mine was made in KY though not VC, or at least that is where it was shipped from and what is engraved into the back of the stove.



Well we know the most recent buyer MHSC is based in KY right?  I know the foundry in Vermont is still operational - I wonder if they cast the panels in VT then ship to KY for final assembly or have a warehouse in KY where they ship from?


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## grobinson2 (Jan 29, 2014)

Not sure on site of or organ but as far as the handle is concerned I am really starting not to like it at it's current location.

Glenn


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## Diabel (Jan 29, 2014)

Hm,
Minor but I am sure annoying design flaw.
The encore has a good 2" space between.


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## Charles1981 (Jan 29, 2014)

There are previous posts about the 2n1's removable refractory cover being very easy to break, however there have also been reports that when replaced the new replacement seemed to be more hardy than the original OEM cover. 

So far my 2n1's (encore) has been holding up. It is the sea-shell design which may still be the original OEM "light-duty" cover...but it hasn't broke on me yet (finger's crossed). The replacement's all seem to come with your oval design.


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## grobinson2 (Jan 29, 2014)

Yep unit came with the thicker oval.


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## grobinson2 (Jan 30, 2014)

Okay, so last night was a long night.  I am running the stove with the cat.  Loaded it about as full, as I could get it with a mix of oak and birch.  A piece or two is very very dry and about five years old and the rest was cut two years ago and split this year.  I ran the stove up to 550 in bypass mode and then closed the damper with my primary air intake all the way open.  Once my cat probe was up to 1000F I closed down the air.  The cat went to 1650 in seconds and the stove top went to 600.  I opened the bypass with my primary air still shutdown  to drop my cat temp but the stove took off like a blast furnace in seconds and I was afraid of starting a chimney fire (I am running a 35 foot brick chimney without any liner that needs a liner and will get one this summer) so I closed the damper and watched the cat go back to 1600F again.  This time I opened up my clean out door on the bottom of the chimney to kill my draft and I was able after two or three hours to get the cat temp down to 1300F.  Even with the cat temps in that range the stove stayed at a nice 500F.  This morning all was well and other then being a little tired the house was nice and warm and the stove was still at 300F (griddle temp) with lots of coals still glowing.  I closed my clean-out port on the chimney, loaded the stove about half way with the same mix and let it get up to 500F at which time I closed the damper and went into cat mode.  400 to 800F cat temp went in about eight min but that was about it.  I was able to get the cat temp up to 1K but was still getting smoke out the chimney.  Any ideas?

Thanks,
Glenn


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## Excavator (Jan 30, 2014)

I never can wait that long to close bypass. When my griddle temp hits 350 - 400 I have to close bypass and then the cat probe starts to show temps at 350 and climbs quickly with air wide open. If I keep the bypass open even a minute too long the cat temps go too high when bypass closed.
I may have some minor  smoke first few minutes after cat engaged but it clears up nice


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## jharkin (Jan 30, 2014)

I don't use griddle temp anymore. If the stove is coming up from cold it can lag flue temps considerably.... I have a surface flue temp thermo on the single wall pipe right at the flue collar. As soon as that hits 400 I can engage and get a reliable light off.


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## grobinson2 (Jan 30, 2014)

I have one on the pipe as well and will use that from now on.  I like your point about it being quicker to react then the griddle temp.

Thanks,
Glenn


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## Reckless (Feb 2, 2014)

jharkin said:


> I don't use griddle temp anymore. If the stove is coming up from cold it can lag flue temps considerably.... I have a surface flue temp thermo on the single wall pipe right at the flue collar. As soon as that hits 400 I can engage and get a reliable light off.


This is exactly what I do also. GT are more for me to know if Im utilizing the load effectively (for me anyway).


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## GJUL (Feb 2, 2014)

1st - thanks for the wealth of info all …. 2nd -- I'm on my second season with a new Defiant and my Cat looks like the pic attached.  I've not been using a cat probe, so can't speak to what's been going on there, but I'm betting that the pic will tell some of you  the story!  Should I simply run without it in place until I get a new one?  Or am I better off using this one until replaced?

Thanks for any input offered.


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## jharkin (Feb 2, 2014)

I havent had it happen myself, but that looks like photos Ive seen of thermal shock cracking.

Leave it in till you get a new one.  Even if its lost a lot of effectiveness you are still burning cleaner and more efficient than just running on bypass.  As long as you see the smoke out of the stack decrease after you engage it you know its doing something.


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## GJUL (Feb 2, 2014)

Thanks for the quick reply JHarkin --- anxious to get a fire going again tonight and will search on 'Thermal shock cracking' next.


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## Charles1981 (Feb 2, 2014)

This is my cat after 1.5 seasons. No noticeable damage last season. No noticeable damage this past turkey day. I pulled it about 2 weeks ago during a sweep and had a crack with the center metal piece warped. Still running as normal, but a little disappointing.


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## Diabel (Feb 3, 2014)

GJUL said:


> 1st - thanks for the wealth of info all …. 2nd -- I'm on my second season with a new Defiant and my Cat looks like the pic attached.  I've not been using a cat probe, so can't speak to what's been going on there, but I'm betting that the pic will tell some of you  the story!  Should I simply run without it in place until I get a new one?  Or am I better off using this one until replaced?
> 
> Thanks for any input offered.
> 
> ...



Yup, this cat is toast. My understanding of the "2in1" was that you can run it with or without the cat in place.
Without the cat the stove is to run as the "everburn" system, still very efficient as per  VC apparently....

I could be wrong however.


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## BrowningBAR (Feb 3, 2014)

Diabel said:


> Yup, this cat is toast. My understanding of the "2in1" was that you can run it with or without the cat in place.
> Without the cat the stove is to run as the "everburn" system, still very efficient as per  VC apparently....
> 
> I could be wrong however.


You are correct if this is a 2-in-1 model.


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## R2.0 (Feb 3, 2014)

Hello all.  I did a search and didn't find any Winterwarm references, so I figured my questions may not have been asked a million times already. 

I got my secondhand Winterwarm Large installed about 3 weeks ago: installation and startup.  I'm having trouble with the operation, or at least I think I am.  Here are the basics:

New 8" flexible liner installed with Thermix in masonry chimney
Fuel is a 60:40 mix of oak and poplar - slab wood from a local mill.  Haven't done the moisture content, but logs were seasoned before the cuts and the wood had been sitting from 6 months to 2 years.
No air leaks in the body, but some around the door - my attempts at evening out the stove face didn't work out so well.
Catalyst was a bit swelled, but still fit in the refractory fine.
Chimney temp via surface mount thermocouple about 10" from the stove collar
Catalyst temp via an inconel thermocouple in the factory location.
Can someone give me some basic operational guidance?  I owned a Quadrafire 4100 for a few years and got decent at operating the primary and secondary air controls, and it threw out a ton of heat.  But for a stove of similar size I'm having a hard time getting the Winterwarm to acceptable output.  My current SOP is:

Using a paraffin/egg carton firestarter, some poplar, and a couple pieces of oak, start the fire.  I don't really need "kindling" per se - the poplar and even the oak lights right off.
Run with door cracked until the fire has gotten established - about 5 minutes - then close the door with the primary air control fully open.
Feed fuel until a decent bed of coals is established, say 1"-2".
Close the bypass damper.
When I close the damper, the draft drops markedly, but I'm not getting smoke out of the chimney.  Initially it seemed I couldn't get the catalyst to light off at all, but for the last 2-3 firings i've gotten it to run at about 800f-900f, with an occasional excursion to 1500F. But I can't seem to get it to throw a lot of heat.  Theories are:
- Bad fans.  They are turning, but the airflow seems to be minimal.  Is this the way it's supposed to be?
- Partially plugged/bad catalyst.
- Operator error​Obviously I'm hoping for the last - that's cheap to fix.  With my luck it will be all 3.

Any ideas?


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## grobinson2 (Feb 3, 2014)

I second BrowningBAR and have run mine with out the cat in with good results.  That said the longer I run the stove the better I am getting and using the cat is more efficient (as we already know).

Thanks,
Glenn


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## R2.0 (Feb 3, 2014)

grobinson2 said:


> Unless I am wrong was this meant for a different forum?
> 
> Glenn



Umm, nope - it is a Vermont Castings unit.  But if I missed the intent of the thread I apologize and can delete it.


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## jharkin (Feb 3, 2014)

R2.0 - This thread is open  for any vermont castings discussion, its just happens to be dominated by freestanding stove owners. Please do stick around, the more the merrier 

EDITED: Missed that your insert was catalytic...


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## R2.0 (Feb 3, 2014)

jharkin said:


> R2.0 - This thread is open  for any vermont castings discussion, its just happens to be dominated by catalytic talk so faras there seems to be more VC cat stoves in circulation than noncats.  Please do stick around, the more the merrier



It does seem like you can't swing a dead cat around here without hitting...a dead cat.


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## jharkin (Feb 3, 2014)

i updated my reply, i didnt realize your winterwarm was a cat insert.


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## jharkin (Feb 3, 2014)

R2.0 said:


> Can someone give me some basic operational guidance?  I owned a Quadrafire 4100 for a few years and got decent at operating the primary and secondary air controls, and it threw out a ton of heat.  But for a stove of similar size I'm having a hard time getting the Winterwarm to acceptable output.  My current SOP is:
> 
> Using a paraffin/egg carton firestarter, some poplar, and a couple pieces of oak, start the fire.  I don't really need "kindling" per se - the poplar and even the oak lights right off.
> Run with door cracked until the fire has gotten established - about 5 minutes - then close the door with the primary air control fully open.
> ...




OK, I did a 5 minute skim of your other threads. Looks like internally your stove is the same as the rest of us Encore/Defiant folks, just packaged into an instert. So hopefully we should be able to help you reason things out here.



First thing to check is always the wood quality.  I know you mentioned using slab wood, but assume it didn't season at all in log form. Unless its been cut into slabs over a year Id go down to the orange box, buy a $20 moisture meter, re-split a piece and check.  If you get readings over 25% we should suspect the wood.
Alternative wood test: go to a supermarket and buy a couple of those kiln dried bundles.  If those burn hot also makes your wood suspect.
If the wood is the issue you might get some of those eco log products or look for pallet wood to mix in.

If the wood checks out OK, yes I would suspect the catalyst is bad.  These VC stoves tend to burn hyperactive, when mine is working well its actually quite a struggle to keep those probe temperatures below 1000F.  If its sits at low 800ish temps I suspect a stall, go back on bypass and get the fire hotter then try again.
On the blowers I cant say, no experience there.  Do you know if they are thermostatically controlled? If yes might just be the instert isn't getting hot enough to trigger high blower (due to the above).

Your burn routine looks decent.  On a cold start-up I use 1/4 of a supercedar between 2 splits and some kindling on top, then once established add a couple more small splits and let it burn till the single wall flue pipe  at the collar hits 400-450. Then I close the bypass and watch the probe temp for lightoff. I dont go right for a full load on a cold start, on the next reload with a good coal bed I will pack it full and then burn wide open and again shut bypass around 400 on the single wall. This usually works well and then once the cat hits 1000F i slowly close down the air over 10-15min. The only difference for you is you probably cant watch flue temps....


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## Charles1981 (Feb 3, 2014)

So how does this 2in1 work exactly? There certainly aren't other cat stove out there that are advertised to run with or without it installed.

If the cat is degrading or not working there is an obvious obstruction in the chamber to allow normal flow for the stove to run in E(n)everburn mode, but is it then working hybrid?! lol. I take it in non-cat setup they are still expecting a secondary burn in the chamber just with the cat removed? Maybe this is why the cats degrade so fast in some stoves, the temps in the chamber are actually remarkably higher than normal due to secondary burn initiating without  cat?

I really don't know what I am talking about in this, and so am having some trouble wrapping my mind around how the stove still burns secondaries with or without the cat installed.

And in the above posters post with the holes in the cat...i mean some of the cat is still probably getting active? Is he still experiencing 2nd burn in the chamber due to the fact that stove is still marked to burn secondaries with the cat removed, or is the cat creating some obstruction to prevent that from occurring.


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## R2.0 (Feb 3, 2014)

jharkin said:


> OK, I did a 5 minute skim of your other threads. Looks like internally your stove is the same as the rest of us Encore/Defiant folks, just packaged into an instert. So hopefully we should be able to help you reason things out here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I actually can watch flue temps.  I bought this thermometer, which came with 2 Type K bare thermocouples.  I clamped one to the chimney liner with a SS HVAC worm drive clamp, and used the connector for the other thermocouple that I bought separately for the cat.  As soon as I get some extension wire I can leave the probes plugged in and switch between both channels.

It sounds like you are using 400F as the setpoint to close the bypass and are trying to modulate the cat temp at 1000F - correct?

I'll see if I can pick up a wood moisture meter today.

(Btw my ultimate goal is to use a PLC to control the primary and secondary air, as well as setpoint/alarm.  That's why I went with component probes instead of the Condar unit.  And it was half the price.)


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## jharkin (Feb 3, 2014)

I'm reading 400 on the single wall pipe surface as a guide to close the bypass as I've found this works through trial and error. Actual flue gas temp is higher of course.... With your probe readings maybe try 600. And if that works ok next time try 550.. And on till you find the lowest temp that will achieve light off.


The 1000 figure is just a sign that the catalytic burn is well established. Mine will typically cruise anywhere from 1200 to 1500. Spikes to 1700 or more are possible with dry wood if you are not carefull. The mfg specs 1700 as the max safe temp.


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## Charles1981 (Feb 3, 2014)

So (basically answered half of my own question earlier) I found this thread regarding non-cat everburn stoves. It seems very in depth regarding the function of how the coal bed and 2nd burn chamber are supposed to work.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...-cat-owners-discussion-and-review-thread.3386

It doesn't answer how the everburn system work in combination with sticking a cat in there.


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## BrowningBAR (Feb 4, 2014)

grobinson2 said:


> I second BrowningBAR and have run mine with out the cat in with good results.  That said the longer I run the stove the better I am getting and using the cat is more efficient (as we already know).
> 
> Thanks,
> Glenn


Yours is the current generation 2-in-1 and when you run it without the cat, you remove that cat, but still have the damper closed, right? Just making sure we are on the same page, otherwise you can damage the stove.


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## BrowningBAR (Feb 4, 2014)

Charles1981 said:


> So how does this 2in1 work exactly? There certainly aren't other cat stove out there that are advertised to run with or without it installed.


The concept is that the assembly without the cat, runs like the everburn system. With the cat it runs like a cat stove. I have never run the newer 2-in-1 stoves and I have never operated a non-cat everburn VC stove, so, I can not go into how the everburn system creates a secondary combustion.


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## R2.0 (Feb 4, 2014)

So last night I tried lighting off the cat earlier than I did before and it works pretty well. I ran it on bypass for the first small load and engaged the cat on the second. With the damper wide open the cat heated up steadily from about 500 to 1200, where I started to throttle it back, but I was behind the curve and opened the bypass when it hit about 1400. I repeated that process a few times, with a couple of reloads, and started to home in on cruising in the 1300's.

And here's where I discovered I'm an idiot - I had the fan controls reversed. Apparently the fan lever goes OFF: HIGH------->LOW, not OFF:LOW------>HIGH. So I had been running the fan at minimum speed. :| When I started running the fan at high speed the cat temp started to slowly fall, which I think is due to increased heat transfer. This should also make the stove temperatures easier to control.

Question: what rate of temperature increase is considered dangerous? I was getting at most about 50F/minute.


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## jharkin (Feb 4, 2014)

R2.0 said:


> So last night I tried lighting off the cat earlier than I did before and it works pretty well. I ran it on bypass for the first small load and engaged the cat on the second. With the damper wide open the cat heated up steadily from about 500 to 1200, where I started to throttle it back, but I was behind the curve and opened the bypass when it hit about 1400. I repeated that process a few times, with a couple of reloads, and started to home in on cruising in the 1300's.
> 
> And here's where I discovered I'm an idiot - I had the fan controls reversed. Apparently the fan lever goes OFF: HIGHLOW, not OFF:LOWHIGH. So I had been running the fan at minimum speed. :| When I started running the fan at high speed the cat temp started to slowly fall, which I think is due to increased heat transfer. This should also make the stove temperatures easier to control.
> 
> Question: what rate of temperature increase is considered dangerous? I was getting at most about 50F/minute.



Nice catch on the blower 

I think you are doing fine, dont be afraid to crank it up.  When mine lights off strong the cat tamp can shoot from 500 to 1200 in literally 3-5 minutes.  1400 is nothing to worry about either, I only start to get nervous and watch it like a hawk when I hit 1600+.  Ive only done the dump heat trick when it hits 1700.

And dont be afraid to engage the cat on the first cycle, you are just wasting heat otherwise.... As long as the wood is charred and the flue gases are over 500F you should be safe to go.


Looks like you are on your way to getting it dialed in, welcome to the VC family!


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## R2.0 (Feb 4, 2014)

jharkin said:


> Nice catch on the blower
> 
> I think you are doing fine, dont be afraid to crank it up.  When mine lights off strong the cat tamp can shoot from 500 to 1200 in literally 3-5 minutes.  1400 is nothing to worry about either, I only start to get nervous and watch it like a hawk when I hit 1600+.  Ive only done the dump heat trick when it hits 1700.
> 
> ...



The charred wood is where I'm having a bit of trouble. Because it is slabwood a heavy load will necessarily have some pieces where the flat sides are together, so they have trouble with the whole surface charring.  What is the significance of getting the surface to char?  Is it simply to make sure the first rush of volatiles from the wood surface are gone?


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## grobinson2 (Feb 6, 2014)

I have to say the more I burn my 2 in 1 the more I love this stove!  Still wish my glass would stay clean though as it blacks out after the first fire.  Heats great though!

Glenn


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## jharkin (Feb 6, 2014)

R2.0 said:


> What is the significance of getting the surface to char?  Is it simply to make sure the first rush of volatiles from the wood surface are gone?



I believe its more to boil off surface moisture and get the temps up hot enough to light off the cat without any steam shock.  I wouldn't worry that 100% of the load is black so long as the flue temps are good and the cat lights.



grobinson2 said:


> I have to say the more I burn my 2 in 1 the more I love this stove!  Still wish my glass would stay clean though as it blacks out after the first fire.  Heats great though!
> 
> Glenn



Awesome Glenn!    I dont recall if this is your first stove or not...  It does get a bit better as the temps go down and you push the stove hotter... but its never going to be as clean as a tube stove so no worries and welcome to the club!


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## grobinson2 (Feb 6, 2014)

Thanks jharkin,
     I had a 1945 that I redid and burned for a month or so before I got this one.

Thanks,
Glenn


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## jharkin (Feb 6, 2014)

In that case wait till the second and third years... The farther ahead you get on the wood supply also helps the window blackening issue.



In other news... *I*  am happy to report that all is now right in the world with the new ceramic catalyst.  I have not had a single stall or runaway since I put it in and fixed my stuck air door.  Lightoff is a tad slower but not enough to be bothersome and other then that its been phenomenal and seems to hold the heat much deeper into the cycle.  I feel like finally after 5 seasons I have this stove running like it was designed to!


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## Diabel (Feb 7, 2014)

It is nice to hear that your stoves are working to your satisfaction. 

I am sad to announce that my limping 0028 is down and out!! NG is heating the house 100% since last Tue. Not a nice sound....
Last weekend the stove did not burn right, I knew something was up. I decided to open the back access panel on Tue. Well, a deformed cat has fallen to the bottom of the refactory box, the box has fallen apart as well. Nothing can be salvaged. Called the supplier...$660 in parts!
The plan was to finally rebuild my 2550 that is sitting in the basement. And swap the two in the summer. I was hoping that the 0028 will be able to last until April. 

I thinking of actually jigging something up... I do have a refactory box (ok shape) from another 2550. It would require some precision cutting and glueing etc. I would loose the back access to service the cat. I also have an extra cat in a decent shape. The problem I see is that the opening is the box (where the smoke enters) is  about an inch lower on the 0028 which means more cutting and glueing. Also, the 0028 has a sheet of stainless steel heat exchanger shield in front of the box  behind the lower fireback. Mine is completely done! 
Cost $153.00 for a piece of steel 7x7 inch!!
To solve this and to save the cat from flame hitting it directly, I will try to somehow attach a hood from the 2550 to solve he flame issue.

I am off th HD to pick up some stainless steel bolts and screws and will attempt this project this weekend. I am not very optimistic but if I can make it work for another  six weeks then I will be happy. Wish me luck....


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## R2.0 (Feb 7, 2014)

I have given serious thought to either making my own refractory or, even better, casting it in place. If corrugated cardboard is used as cores to form the passages, and it is oriented correctly, it could be left in place and consumed during the first fire of the cat.


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## jharkin (Feb 7, 2014)

*Thoughts on coal management and reloads...*

Guys, I tried something new last night with respect to coals and reloads.  When its cold and I'm burning hot and I have a lot of coals I just level out the bed, which we know works great.  On milder days when I would let the stove nearly burn down cold between loads and there are minimal coals I would tend to rake them into a pile up front  (like the noncat guys) and then reload.  This helps things ignite because the airwash feeds the coals, but Ive found that it takes a really long time to get the stove hot enough to engage the cat because the fire starts down front and only very slowly burns toward the back. In this situation it would sometimes take 40 minutes to get hot enough to light off the cat again.

So last night I tried something new.  Only a small amount of coals and griddle temps had fallen to 250.  I stirred the coals till most of the ash had fallen down to the pan, then raked the coals into two N-S lines aligned with the andirons running from the window to the back of the stove.  I left an open space in between and then loaded the stove full (kind of like the "tunnel of love" ash trick, but with coals). The result?  the load takes off like a rocket, airwash flows down under the load and fires of the two lines of hot coals which gets the entire base of the pile burning and the stove heats up _fast_. I was able to engage the cat in under 15 minutes!

Anyone else try this or have other methods for reloading on minimal coals?


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## grobinson2 (Feb 9, 2014)

I was so pleased with my stove today guys I just had to brag about it.  I had it burning all last night and this morning and this afternoon I reloaded the stove with some just split wood that was cut about two years ago but just split like I just said.  Anyway the cat temp was at 750 - 800 F when I opened the bypass and added the wood.  Closed the by pass and the cat shot to 1400 in under 15 seconds.  Not a wisp of smoke out the chimney.  Cat stayed at 1400 and griddle top stayed at 500F all afternoon and evening.  This was with total crap birch wood that was kind of punky.  Very very pleased.  Of course my glass is as black as the white house at the moment, but oh well.

Have a nice evening,
Glenn


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## firewoodjunky (Feb 9, 2014)

grobinson2 said:


> I have to say the more I burn my 2 in 1 the more I love this stove!  Still wish my glass would stay clean though as it blacks out after the first fire.  Heats great though!
> 
> Glenn


 

Glenn,

I am currently on week 4 of perfectly clean glass. I had some issues with blackening earlier in the year but I think it is because I was burning a bit too low temperature wise.


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## grobinson2 (Feb 9, 2014)

WHAT!  Week 4  Give me a brake!  I am running the stove at 500F!


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## firewoodjunky (Feb 9, 2014)

grobinson2 said:


> WHAT!  Week 4  Give me a brake!  I am running the stove at 500F!


 
Yup, week 4. GT is usually around 550 to 625 peak temp. Glass is staying perfectly clear. I dunno.


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## grobinson2 (Feb 9, 2014)

Hummm....  Are you running in cat mode?  How dry is your wood?  How full do you load the stove?  What type of wood are you burning (small splits or large)?  What kind of burn times are you getting?  What is your cat temp if running in cat mode?  I am going to get my glass clean one way or the other!
Thanks again,
Glenn


----------



## jharkin (Feb 9, 2014)

Yes running it hard will certainly keep the glass clean.  If I close mine down all hte way for an overnight burn the griddle cruises low like 400 and the glass soots up no matter how dry the wood is.  You can have 1500 cat tamps at the same time though and be burning clean flue wise.....


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## firewoodjunky (Feb 10, 2014)

grobinson2 said:


> Hummm....  Are you running in cat mode?  How dry is your wood?  How full do you load the stove?  What type of wood are you burning (small splits or large)?  What kind of burn times are you getting?  What is your cat temp if running in cat mode?  I am going to get my glass clean one way or the other!
> Thanks again,
> Glenn


 
Yup, running in CAT mode. Wood is pretty dry - 3 yo old oak at night and 2+ yr old cherry during the day. Splits are a mix, medium splits to big splits and occasionally a small to medium sized round at night. For an overnight burn I lay down three of the smaller splits then load the bigger ones on top of that and if I have a round or two fill those on the top.  Burn times with a load of oak - I am getting 8 to 9 hours at over 500 GT, would easily get 12 to 14 if I let her slip down below 300, but with the current temps that isn't going to happen yet. I reload with cherry in the am before I leave for work. Cherry splits on a full load give me around 6 to 7 hours, maybe more at over 500 GT - I don't run the stove during the day usually. Cat temp - unknown


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## Reckless (Feb 11, 2014)

jharkin said:


> I feel like finally after 5 seasons I have this stove running like it was designed to!


Dont you do that! Shhhhhh youre gonna wake the encore overfire ferries!! hehe



jharkin said:


> *Thoughts on coal management and reloads...*
> 
> Anyone else try this or have other methods for reloading on minimal coals?



Yea I find that when I have minimal coals I do something similar, I rake forward and put a 4-5" gap in the middle to help air get under.


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## grobinson2 (Feb 11, 2014)

Okay, well I am getting some nice long burn times so I guess I just have to play with the stove some more.  When you guys load, do you clean the ash away from the holes and opening that go back to the everburn/cat area or do you let that cover over?

Thanks,
Glenn


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## firewoodjunky (Feb 12, 2014)

grobinson2 said:


> Okay, well I am getting some nice long burn times so I guess I just have to play with the stove some more.  When you guys load, do you clean the ash away from the holes and opening that go back to the everburn/cat area or do you let that cover over?
> 
> Thanks,
> Glenn


 

I just let it build up. I do find that there is a "sweet spot" with ash buildup, once I go past that point I need to up my airflow more to get similar burns. Once I hit that point I try to pick a mild day (not so easy with this recent weather) where I can burn it down enough to get a decent cleaning of the ash bed.

It may be possible to get more time if I cleaned around the back of the everburn/cat area but it seems if I need to let it cool down enough to clean some of the ashes I might as well just clean as much as I can....

I am cheap and don't like to burn oil


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## grobinson2 (Feb 15, 2014)

Hey Guys, I just came across a nice supply of treated fence posts that are shot for posts but fine for burning.  I am under the impression that I can not burn these with the cat installed but if I burn them with the cat out and just use the ever-burn it should be fine right?  Yes I am aware hey are bad for your health and so on and so forth.  It is in a sealed stove so I am not worried about that.

Thanks,
Glenn


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## elmoleaf (Feb 15, 2014)

grobinson2 said:


> Hey Guys, I just came across a nice supply of treated fence posts that are shot for posts but fine for burning.  I am under the impression that I can not burn these with the cat installed but if I burn them with the cat out and just use the ever-burn it should be fine right?  Yes I am aware hey are bad for your health and so on and so forth.  It is in a sealed stove so I am not worried about that.
> 
> Thanks,
> Glenn


Seriously? No. Never Burn Treated Wood. 
Ever.
For many years, the most common preservative for treated wood was CCA, a combination of chromium, copper and arsenic. When wood treated with this preservative is burned, some of the arsenic is released into the air with the fly ash, and the rest is concentrated in the ash that remains.
Yummy, arsenic. Poison.


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## Ram 1500 with an axe... (Feb 15, 2014)

grobinson2 said:


> Hey Guys, I just came across a nice supply of treated fence posts that are shot for posts but fine for burning.  I am under the impression that I can not burn these with the cat installed but if I burn them with the cat out and just use the ever-burn it should be fine right?  Yes I am aware hey are bad for your health and so on and so forth.  It is in a sealed stove so I am not worried about that.
> 
> Thanks,
> Glenn


I would not do it, so why should you..... Just saying, don't burn ****


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## grobinson2 (Feb 15, 2014)

Thank you guys for the concern but I am fine with burning the treated wood.  I have burned truck loads of telephone pole buts in an out door boiler with out any issues and am only really trying to make sure they wont hurt the stove.  I know with the poles those that were treated with creosote would just smolder and besides that supposedly will attack stainless steel so I would throw those to the side, but the CCA wood burned great.  The CCA was stopped in 2003 for the most part by the way, however these posts were prior 2003 so I am sure it is in there.  As far as the ash goes it is burred for a shooting range backstop so I am not worried about that ether.

Thanks,
Glenn


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## BrotherBart (Feb 15, 2014)

Just don't be blowing chromium, copper and arsenic out of your chimney around me.


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## BrowningBAR (Feb 15, 2014)

grobinson2 said:


> Thank you guys for the concern but I am fine with burning the treated wood.  I have burned truck loads of telephone pole buts in an out door boiler with out any issues and am only really trying to make sure they wont hurt the stove.  I know with the poles those that were treated with creosote would just smolder and besides that supposedly will attack stainless steel so I would throw those to the side, but the CCA wood burned great.  The CCA was stopped in 2003 for the most part by the way, however these posts were prior 2003 so I am sure it is in there.  As far as the ash goes it is burred for a shooting range backstop so I am not worried about that ether.
> 
> Thanks,
> Glenn


I'm sure your neighbors are thrilled.


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## Charles1981 (Feb 16, 2014)

http://www.epa.gov/burnwise/bestburn.html

It isn't maybe, shouldn't, or think twice. It is NEVER. If you think that particulate matter isn't going to get into your house in small amounts you are wrong. If you think that particulate matter isn't going to affect your neighbors you are also wrong.

Everything about burning treated wood in a stove or even open fire is wrong and dangerous. Not just to you, your family, your neighbors, but also the environment.


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## Charles1981 (Feb 16, 2014)

More from the EPA

*Disposal of CCA-treated wood*

CCA-treated wood can be disposed of with regular municipal trash (i.e., municipal solid waste, not yard waste).
Never burn CCA-treated wood or use it as compost or mulch.
State or local laws may be stricter than federal requirements.  Residential consumers should contact appropriate state and local agencies for further guidance on the disposal of CCA-treated wood.  For more information, please contact the waste management agency for your state.


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## Charles1981 (Feb 16, 2014)

And again from the EPA listing case reports and medical documentation of the consequences.

Article
*Seasonal arsenic exposure from burning chromium-copper-arsenate-treated wood.*
H A Peters, W A Croft, E A Woolson, B A Darcey, M A Olson

JAMA The Journal of the American Medical Association 
Source: PubMed
*ABSTRACT* All eight members of a rural Wisconsin family experienced recurring neurological and medical illness over three years, especially during the winter months. Arsenic, in concentrations of 12 to 87 ppm, was noted in the hair of the mother and father, and analysis of hair and fingernails of all family members demonstrated pathological levels of arsenic. For four years the five-room home had been heated with a small wood stove in which outdoor or marine plywood and wood remnants had been preferentially burned. Stove ashes that contained more than 1,000 ppm of arsenic contaminated the living area, and the ratio of copper, chromium, and arsenic pentoxide in this ash matched the ratio used in the chromium-copper-arsenate-treated wood.


The EPA and I would say almost all members here really want to convince you to not burn this wood. There are many other threads regarding burning CCA wood on this forum as well. It isn't just here in this thread.


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## jharkin (Feb 16, 2014)




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## grobinson2 (Feb 16, 2014)

Good morning Guys,
     My closest neighbor is a little over a mile away...  Thank you for your concern but non really address the only question I asked about which was will it hurt the stove it's self.  I had read over the provided literature and understand that it is not a good idea to burn the wood so now it is just for informational purposes as to weather it would damage the stove or not.

Thanks again,
Glenn


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## elmoleaf (Feb 16, 2014)

grobinson2 said:


> Good morning Guys,
> My closest neighbor is a little over a mile away...  Thank you for your concern but non really address the only question I asked about which was will it hurt the stove it's self.  I had read over the provided literature and understand that it is not a good idea to burn the wood so now it is just for informational purposes as to weather it would damage the stove or not.
> 
> Thanks again,
> Glenn



When such burning produces arsenic that is poisonous to occupants of the house, neighbors, the environment and animals that come in contact with the ash, it is irrelevant whether said burning will damage the stove. 
Please rethink your understanding of the category of things in life that are "not a good idea."


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## grobinson2 (Feb 16, 2014)

Elmoleaf,
     Who in the heck are you to tell me what I may or may not want to know about a product or design or practice????!!  This is a forum about questions and information.  If I want to burn my house to the ground and want to know how to do it most efficiently then so be it.  If I want to construct a 24 kt gold fence around my stove so that Baby Jesus wont burn his little fingers and I ask for suggestions on how to do it, then so be it.  If I want know what effects said product or fuel will have on my Vermont Castings stove then so be it.  Get the picture.  You are more then welcome to abstain from answering my post.  You are even more then welcome to provide information like the guys above did on why it may not be a good idea but stop flaming my post.  Many wood burners do it because it may be the most economic way for them to provide heat for there family's, but just as many others might do it because we just like to see things burn and don't want to have to be dependent on someone else to provide our fuel for heat.  If the EPA had it's way you would not burn a damn thing and every time you took a crap you would have to pay them a fee for the methane gas you just produced.  So please rethink your idea of what a constructive post may or may not be!

Thanks,
Glenn


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## Ram 1500 with an axe... (Feb 16, 2014)

Stay away from the rubber tires.....


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## grobinson2 (Feb 16, 2014)

Ram 1500 with an axe... said:


> Stay away from the rubber tires.....




HAHAHHAA!  I just cant get them to fit in the stove.    One of the guys down the road got a tire saw and burns them in this home made out door boiler.  When he told me about it I was like what a moron but he has it rigged up so that it burns them so hot you don't see any smoke at all.  He recycles the metal bands and it sure beats what everyone else does with there tires around here which is dump them in the river.

Thanks,
Glenn


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## jharkin (Feb 16, 2014)

Alright guys! Lets chill, I dont want the mods to have to close my thread.  

Grobinson, I think you know the consensus opinion, now its up to you to decide what you want to do. I will stay out of it now.


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## Charles1981 (Feb 16, 2014)

Yea this really has nothing to do with VC stoves. You can make a new thread about it as it really is a general topic. But it will be more of the same. No-one is going say much other than don't do it. Ever.


----------



## elmoleaf (Feb 16, 2014)

Glenn,
Sorry, I thought it was constructive to provide information to readers of the forum that burning CCA wood releases arsenic, a poison.
Best of luck to you.
Yes, the topic has nothing to do with the original thread. Sorry guys.


----------



## grobinson2 (Feb 16, 2014)

Guys,
     The "discussion" about whether CCA is good for you or the environment has nothing to do with this thread that is correct however my original question as to whether or not it would damage the Vermont Castings Defiant 1975 2-in-1 wood stove is a legitimate question.  Would that wood along with it's chemical makeup or additives damage the castings, bolts, ceramics ect?  Same question goes for the use of cannal coal (sometimes called fireplace coal) if used in the same stove?  Does the fuel burn too hot or give off a harmful chemical that would damage the appliance?

Thanks again,
Glenn


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## R2.0 (Feb 17, 2014)

The question of burning CCA treated wood might be "on topic" for the thread. And like the gentleman I too dislike others telling me what to do with my property - it goes against some of the country's founding principles. But I also believe in other principles, like Freedom of Expression. And that means that,  not only is there ZERO obligation to answer the gentleman's's question,  people have EVERY right to tell the gentleman what they think of his plan. Getting indignant because others are telling you what you can and can't do, and then getting irritated because others are not doing what YOU want them to do? Umm, yeah.

Edited because I'm a fool.  But probably not the biggest one in this thread.


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## Ram 1500 with an axe... (Feb 17, 2014)

You might want to read the OP....


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## R2.0 (Feb 17, 2014)

Ram 1500 with an axe... said:


> You might want to read the OP....



Fixed.  Cause I'm an idjit.


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## Charles1981 (Feb 17, 2014)

So I have a question. Reading old threads about VC's and the everburn system it sounds like it is pretty common when you close the bypass damper to hear almost like a jet engine roar. I definitely hear this frequently. Sometimes I will lift the top loading plate just to make sure I hear a nice roar. It does sound like a forge being fed air. Do you all hear the same roar? If I close the bypass at like 300-400 it won't be as load but usually the wood isn't quite caught totally (but if i check back in 20-30 minutes after temp climbs to 550-600 it is really roaring if i barely open the top loader). If I close the bypass at 500-600 and the wood is really caught its an immediate rumble.

Just wondering what everyone else's experience with the jet rumble is and making sure I'm not crazy. I assume it is an affect of the the down draft system pulling air under the coal bed into the 2nd chamber?


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## grobinson2 (Feb 18, 2014)

When I am burning all these really dry CCA posts then I hear it... . J/K...  No if I am burning really dry wood and it is windy outside (thus pulling a really strong draft) I will get that sound you are talking about.  With a normal draft and medium to wet wood I do not get it.  I have to be careful when I do hear that sound my cat probe can read 1600+ and will have to open the bypass for a min or two while closing my pipe damper and then close bypass.

Thanks,
Glenn


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## grobinson2 (Feb 19, 2014)

Also wanted to check with you guys to see if there was a way I could have my condor cat probe digital reader keep the temp on the screen for more then 90 second or so?  Or is there another reader out there that would work with this probe?

Thanks,
Glenn


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## R2.0 (Feb 19, 2014)

While I'm not familiar with the Condar unit, i have a Type K thermocouple and a cheap reader on my unit insert.  And if the Condar unit is anything like mine,/it will go through a 9v battery in about 2 days if I'm trying to maintain a constant reading.


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## jharkin (Feb 19, 2014)

Are you using the battery or hte optional AC adapter.  I have the adapter and mine stays on longer... maybe 5 min at a time??


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## grobinson2 (Feb 19, 2014)

Oh sorry guys I should have included that...  I am using the AC adapter.  It stays on for about 3 minutes.  I am looking for something that would stay on for 10min or forever...


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## hydes2004 (Nov 19, 2014)

grobinson2 said:


> Also wanted to check with you guys to see if there was a way I could have my condor cat probe digital reader keep the temp on the screen for more then 90 second or so?  Or is there another reader out there that would work with this probe?
> 
> Thanks,
> Glenn



I just purchased this unit today, and plan on modifying it for constant display time.  i was going to open the unit up and reverse engineer it.  My guess is that it is using a 5-5-5 timer or a micro on the PCB board.  I will check back with you guys when I Figure this out.

Kenny


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## hydes2004 (Nov 20, 2014)

I'm going to install my cat probe when it gets here on Saturday.  This is a picture of the rear of the stove with the refractory removed.   The piece that is sticking out, is that the secondary air probe?  Directly above that is a small round almost plug looking.  Is this the price I remove to install the condor probe?


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## 31 bertram (Nov 21, 2014)

hydes...I'm not in authority to advise but I just got my condor probe and installed it yesterday.  My 2550 had a plug located about 2/3 the bottom center of back of stove which looked like a screw head with no slot to put a screw driver (hope this is making sense).  When I pried on it I was surprised as it fell off with not much pressure at all.  I used a 1/4" drill bit and drilled (by hand) thru the plug hole.  Since I was changing the cat also I had the cat chamber opened and saw the drill bit come thru.  The probe tip sits below the cat in my stove so I saw this when I noticed the frame where the cat sits while the cat was removed.  All this took less than an hour and was the first time I ever got the throat hood in place the first 4 tries...WOOOHOOOO.  If you've ever done this you know what I'm talking about.  Hope this helps.  I gotta do a search on probe numbers I need to be looking at now, probably this thread.


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## jharkin (Nov 21, 2014)

I wonder if begreen can move the current discussion to the new 14/15 thread.


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## 31 bertram (Nov 21, 2014)




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## Snowjoe (Nov 23, 2014)

Reckless said:


> How can you adjust the secondary? My stove is running good on normal fuel (600 griddle and 12-1400 cat) but once I put in my 15% maple it takes off on me (800 gt and 1700cat). I am now wondering if its not my gaskets but the secondary that isn't closing properly............. changing too many things at one time can add to the confusion
> 
> Like you, now that I adjusted my airwash the glass stays completely clean! Im glad you are up and on your way Jeremy just in time for this small cold front (supposed to be 65 again here on thurs just in time to cool it down and crawl behind  )


I'm following this blog and must have missed the "airwash" references.  The glass is never clean and it bothers me.


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## hydes2004 (Nov 23, 2014)

I'm curious also


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## Reckless (Nov 23, 2014)

Snowjoe said:


> I'm following this blog and must have missed the "airwash" references.  The glass is never clean and it bothers me.


https://www.hearth.com/talk/index.php?threads/2014-2015-VC-Owners-thread..132919/


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## Bruce P (Aug 31, 2015)

What did they change for '14/'15 that you want a new thread ? Wife loves this stove but Im hoping they made them less trouble prone.


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## Grisu (Aug 31, 2015)

Bruce P said:


> What did they change for '14/'15 that you want a new thread ?



The year simply indicates the burning season, not the stove model year. With a new season a new thread will be opened to make it easier on the forum software and latecomers to the discussion. Similar threads exist for BK stoves. 


> Wife loves this stove but Im hoping they made them less trouble prone.


I keep my fingers crossed that the stove will work out for you. Good luck.


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## Bruce P (Aug 31, 2015)

working on her ,seriously considering Explorer 3  since I cant find an Isle Royale thanks for your help much appreciated


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