# Planting Norway Spruce 5' - 6'



## Ashful (Mar 5, 2013)

I'm looking to plant about 40 Norway spruce one weekend this spring, and fishing for opinions on what equipment will get it done with the least pain to me and my wallet.  The trees will likely be 5 footers with 24" diameter x 18" high balls.  Options considered are:

1.  Hire out the entire job.
2.  Hire out just the digging portion of the job.
3.  Rent a tree spade.
4.  Rent a skid steer with a 36" or 48" auger (if I can even find one local).
5.  Buy or rent a smaller PTO auger for my Deere 855 (25 hp CUT with class 1 hitch).

If I use a smaller auger on the Deere (what diameter can you drive with 19 hp at the PTO?), I would be drilling several smaller holes at each planting, and then cleaning out with a hand shovel.  Lots of work, but if I owned the auger, I could spread the work out over a few days or weekends.  In all cases (unless I hire out the entire job), I could move the trees around using the front end loader on my Deere.  If I don't have an auger on the Deere, I could also move an extra tree or two in each trip across the property using a platform on the rear 3-point.

I have no idea what hiring out part or all of this job would cost, nor a great feel for how much of my time any of the options above might require.


----------



## MasterMech (Mar 5, 2013)

What's the soil like Joful? Rocky? Clay?

Clay will stick to an auger like glue.  Rocks will be a major pain with a large auger as well.
 The 855 isn't going to like a 24" auger in anything but beach sand.

If the soil allows, I'd use the skid steer with an auger.  Maybe even see if they have a set of nursery forks to go with it.

Tree Spade is kinda overkill since you don't need to transplant the trees.

If the soil is real tough, you might be better off just renting a mini-excavator and digging the holes out that way.


----------



## Ashful (Mar 5, 2013)

The soil here is good (been a farm since at LEAST 1773), but a little on the wet side where I'll be planting (hence the Norways).  No rocks, but likely many roots, as these will go along an existing tree line.

Local place rents a small spade for stuff this size, but its $500/day.  I only need to transport 500 - 700 feet, for which a bucket or forks will do fine.

Will check the price on renting amino excavator.  And to think, I turned down a 750 with a backhoe to buy this 855.  :lol:


----------



## ArsenalDon (Mar 6, 2013)

Well around here a tractor gets 80 per hour...may be worth it


----------



## nate379 (Mar 6, 2013)

Backhoe for $250 for the weekend.  Use it for a few hours one day to get the job done and then find about 172 other things to do that it'd handy for... then wish you just owned the darn thing!


----------



## lukem (Mar 6, 2013)

Joful said:


> I'm looking to plant about 40 Norway spruce one weekend this spring, and fishing for opinions on what equipment will get it done with the least pain to me and my wallet. The trees will likely be 5 footers with 24" diameter x 18" high balls. Options considered are:
> 
> 1. Hire out the entire job.
> 2. Hire out just the digging portion of the job.
> ...


 

I've planted literally thousands of the trees you describe....mostly with a shovel.

I would hire all of it out, or none of it out.  If you hire just the digging you'll end up with a lot of holes too big (extra back filling) or too small (extra hand-digging).  

The problem with a tree spade is all the extra dirt you have to get rid of.  If you dig it with a shovel or hoe it's a lot easier to taper it out around the tree...rather than one huge chunk of tightly packed dirt.

Augers aren't good for tree planting because you want a hole that's narrower at the bottom than the top so you can get enough dirt under the root ball to make good contact.  If there's a void with no dirt your tree has a much better chance of not surviving.  Your tractor isn't going to turn a 48" auger anyway (your in 100+ HP territory there).

If I were renting, I'd get a mini excavator.  You can do a 24 hour rental on one for about $150 - $200 around here.  

Measure, mark, and stake the locations...dig the holes...then return the rental.  You can then plant them at your leisure.

As a side note, Norway's in good soil are going to push off 8"-18" inches of growth a year...make sure you plant them with adequate spacing for future growth.  They also like well drained soil, so if you have areas that lay wet  avoid planting them there or improve the drainage before you do.


----------



## Ashful (Mar 6, 2013)

Wow... thanks guys!  I chose the Norway, because I've read many times it's the best conifer for wetter soils.  This area doesn't typically have any standing watter, but it can be soft or muddy in fall and early spring.  My uncle is a landscape architect, and familiar with my property.  When I called him for advice, he confirmed what I had already decided for myself... Norway Spruce is the ideal choice for a hedgerow in my location.

I had originally planned to plant on 16 foot centers, knowing Norways can get quite big (120' - 150' tall and 40' - 50' diameter at end of life), but was talked into closer spacings.  Again, my uncle who has likely had millions of these things planted suggested two staggered rows on 10' spacings.  His reasoning was that I want blockage NOW, and going more sparse than 10' won't give me good coverage for several more years.  If left alone, these will start to lose some lower branches as they crowd out 20 years from now, but I can (if it still matters to me) always thin the rows and plant a third row of smaller trees at that time.

Some of the tree planting augers I've looked at are narrower at the bottom than the top.  I can't remember what they call them, but something like piloted augers.  Looked real slick for something like this, but as I suspected, I don't have the HP to turn one.  I'm surprised that all I find for cat.1 hitches is 1:1 gearbox augers.  With a gearbox running perhaps 4:1, I'd think I could turn a pretty big auger

Will check on mini excavator rentals.  For some reason I had in my head that the rental price was 2x - 3x the $150 - $200 you quoted.


----------



## lukem (Mar 6, 2013)

I planted 2 staggered rows of norway seedlings on 6' centers with the intention of cutting out every other one of them sometime down the line when they get big enough.

I've seen the augers you are talking about...but they aren't common and I think you'd have a real hard time finding one to rent.

As long as you don't have standing water for periods of time they should be OK.  I've just had people insist on planting stuff in a swamp and wonder why they died.

Sounds like your uncle is giving good advice...probably better than mine.


----------



## Ashful (Mar 6, 2013)

Not at all!  All of the advice is appreciated.  Glad to hear the 10' centers is not "at the limit".  I was a little concerned going that close, but did agree that 16' centers would take several years to give me the desired blockage with only two rows.


----------



## basod (Mar 7, 2013)

Is there a reason to go with the 5-6' trees?  I guess you want the blocking quicker.
Most all transplantings take till about year 3 before taking off.

Not sure if Leyland Cypress will grow in your area but they are fast growing down here and seedlings are fairly cheap


----------



## nate379 (Mar 7, 2013)

I planted a Norway Spruce last year, hoping it survived the winter.


----------



## Ashful (Mar 7, 2013)

Leyland Cypress does grow great here, but it's hard to control, and doesn't seem to like wetter soils.


----------



## JustWood (Mar 7, 2013)

I have a Toro Dingo with a 14" bit. It drives the bit well without stalling. I've planted many small trees with this .
I've seen up tp 36" bits for these machines.


----------



## MasterMech (Mar 7, 2013)

LEES WOOD-CO said:


> I have a Toro Dingo with a 14" bit. It drives the bit well without stalling. I've planted many small trees with this .
> I've seen up tp 36" bits for these machines.


Little powerhouses they are.  Rented one configured as a trencher.  Ripped through shale installing drainage under a golf course fairway.  Did the work of a much larger machine.


----------



## JustWood (Mar 7, 2013)

MasterMech said:


> Little powerhouses they are. Rented one configured as a trencher. Ripped through shale installing drainage under a golf course fairway. Did the work of a much larger machine.


 You don't realize how many uses they have until you own one with a bunch of attachments. I like the tranportability of it with a 3500lb single axle trailer also. It gets used between the shop and store which are 10 miles apart. Pulled behind an S-10 shop truck.
I've never checked rental fees but I'd bet they'd be half of a skid steer. The lifting capacting may be an issue with bagged and balled 5' trees.


----------



## Ashful (Mar 7, 2013)

LEES WOOD-CO said:


> You don't realize how many uses they have until you own one with a bunch of attachments. I like the tranportability of it with a 3500lb single axle trailer also. It gets used between the shop and store which are 10 miles apart. Pulled behind an S-10 shop truck.
> I've never checked rental fees but I'd bet they'd be half of a skid steer. The lifting capacting may be an issue with bagged and balled 5' trees.


 
I'm definitely going to check into one of these.  Lifting capacity is no problem, as I have a 3000 lb. tractor with front-end loader to move the trees.


----------



## Ashful (Mar 7, 2013)

Okay... I found something. One local place has a skidsteer (tires) with a 36" auger for $300/day. Might be my best option.

Dig and set one or two trees, to be sure I'm happy with my hole depth, etc.  Then plunk the other 38 holes and return the machine.


----------



## Ashful (Mar 7, 2013)

Hey... just wondering... why the recommendations for a mini excavator?  I can rent a tractor with backhoe, which will be much friendlier to my lawn, for about the same money.

Also, for those who have done this... 36" auger vs. hoe bucket?  I can't imagine why you'd want to dig with a bucket, if you can get an auger, but maybe I just don't know.


----------



## JustWood (Mar 7, 2013)

Auger for sure. Bottom of the hole will be flat and the dirt will be ground up real fine and easy to work with when you need to fill in.


----------



## Ehouse (Mar 7, 2013)

I planted about 20 blue spruce by hand with my dad 50 years ago around the house. Cut 'em all down this year. Spaced too tight and too close to the house.  Take a few years to start, but then they bolt.


----------



## Ashful (Mar 7, 2013)

I had called a pro two days ago, thinking it would be good to have an idea of price before I made the call on doing it myself, but he hasn't returned my call. Much like the guy who was supposed to come out and pull 7 stumps from my yard and prune two trees, six weeks ago, but never showed. Damn contractors...

In any case, I have found pricing mentioned online, for $20 - $30 per hole. That puts the job at $800 - $1200 for the digging alone, and I can rent a skidsteer with 36" auger and a 5 ton trailer for $400/day. Sounds like I'll be doing it myself!


----------



## Utilitrack (Mar 7, 2013)

Joful said:


> I'm looking to plant about 40 Norway spruce one weekend this spring, and fishing for opinions on what equipment will get it done with the least pain to me and my wallet.  The trees will likely be 5 footers with 24" diameter x 18" high balls.  Options considered are:
> 
> 1.  Hire out the entire job.
> 2.  Hire out just the digging portion of the job.
> ...


Don't forget to call 811 to get the utilities marked in your intended area of excavation!


----------



## Ashful (Mar 7, 2013)

Yep!  Done, and done...


----------



## greg13 (Mar 7, 2013)

Joful, check with the rental house for the "Weekend deal". We give you Sat & Sunday for a 1 day charge with 8 hrs. of usage over 8 hrs and there is an added usage fee.


----------



## Nixon (Mar 7, 2013)

I use a 12" bit on my kubota . It has 24 pto hp .  But basically i run it just off idle in rocky soil . So, your tractor at 19 pto hp should be fine .


----------



## MasterMech (Mar 8, 2013)

Joful said:


> I can rent a tractor with backhoe, which will be much friendlier to my lawn, for about the same money.​


 


Joful said:


> why the recommendations for a mini excavator?​


 
Because augers don't like wet, sticky clay or big rocks.  When the digging gets tough, the tough get excavators. 

Doesn't sound like you will have a hard time with the digging.




Joful said:


> I can rent a tractor with backhoe, which will be much friendlier to my lawn, for about the same money.​


 
Maybe and maybe not.  A couple old pieces of plywood to lay down under the tracks for turns will make a mini-excavator real turf friendly.  Excavators just pack so much more digging power into the same size machine.  Hyd. Thumbs are more common on excavators than backhoes too, which makes plucking rocks out of a hole so much easier.


----------



## Ashful (Mar 8, 2013)

Hmmm.... Well, I don't anticipate much rocks or clay, but there will be roots.  Thankfully, I have a lot of space with which to work, so I can always move a few feet one way or the other, if I hit an obstacle.


----------



## billb3 (Mar 8, 2013)

I have a hedgerow of Norways. They like sun and will keep branches on the bottom on the south sunny side if they have sun in the open . They were planted 6 feet apart to have a screen asap but should have had every other one removed about 20 years ago when hurricane winds started hitting that wall of tree and knocking them over.
I do like the double row if you have the space to give up.

I bought a BH for my Deere because we are full of rocks here - some huge - and the rental fees pretty much exceeded the ROI on purchasing one with all the projects I had.

Aside from rentals hiring someone has become quite a bit more affordable than it was 5 years ago . That's the case here anyway.


----------



## Ashful (Mar 8, 2013)

I was just floated a price of $150 per tree for 5' - 6' installed.  The guy seemed interested in discussing larger trees, but not smaller.  I think I'll be doing this myself, and because the investment is not going on MY property (actually on the neighbor's side of the property line), I may be going smaller.

While debating all options, another interesting way of coming at this would be:

1.  What's the biggest auger I can run on my 25hp Deere 855?
2.  What's the biggest tree I can plant with that auger?

Would love to consider purchasing a backhoe, but then I'd need to find space to store a backhoe...


----------



## billb3 (Mar 9, 2013)

I'd only buy a BH if you had more projects or thought you could sell it for a decent price afterwards.
People seem to be rolling attachments into 0% financing on a new tractor.

TSC has a 3pt post hole digger for around 500 but I don't know if  they have a 36 inch auger for it or if it can even handle one.
Home Depot Rentall here used to have one of those little BH  on wheels that you move around via bumper hitch. You're not digging deep so that might be ideal.
They (HD) just got some brandy new Bobcat skidsteers in on a trailer ready to go for $265/day. Dunno if you can dig a good tree hole quick with one or not. I guess they plan on renting them to clean up all the tree damage from the last couple storms.
Couple of huge chippers that take 6 to 10 inch branches too. They never rented chainsaws before, I should go inside and see if they now do.


You really want 5 foot trees ?


----------



## Ashful (Mar 9, 2013)

I want 7 foot trees... but I'm only willing to spend the money for 5 foot trees.  

Thanks for the info!


----------



## MasterMech (Mar 10, 2013)

Joful said:


> 1. What's the biggest auger I can run on my 25hp Deere 855?


 
Unless you plan on using the digger/auger at least occasionally in the future, I'd rent the skidsteer with the auger and get 'r done.  I've seen a lot of diggers sitting in a shed or fencerow collecting rust.


----------



## Ashful (Mar 10, 2013)

Yeah... I figure so.  I do have a multiple-use need for a 6" or 8" auger, but nothing big enough for planting trees.  Thanks!


----------



## Ashful (Mar 21, 2013)

So, I ended up getting 42 potted Norway spruce, 30" - 42" in 2 and 3 gallon pots.  Required hole is 18" diameter x 11" deep.

The guy at the rental shop advised against the tractor mounted 3-point PTO auger, saying they're crap for going thru any root or rock, and they can't be backed out when they screw themselves in along side a root.  Stuff we already knew.  Since I "only need 42 holes, which ain't much," he suggested this:

http://www.gtr-rents.com/store/Augers/1-MAN-HYDRAULIC-POST-AUGER-1005-O4I_41226.aspx

This evening, worried it might be too wet (or frozen), I went out to hand-dig one of the holes.  Although my back is sore (spent all of last evening moving heavy stuff in a crawl space), I ended up digging six of them in 30 minutes, without breaking a sweat.  Easier than I expected, and I wonder, perhaps easier than operating the hydraulic auger linked above?

Soil condition is wet, but not frozen.  Plenty of 1" roots, but nothing much larger.  About 4-6" of nice organic, then transitioning to clay by 6-8" depth.


----------



## lukem (Mar 22, 2013)

Joful said:


> So, I ended up getting 42 potted Norway spruce, 30" - 42" in 2 and 3 gallon pots.  Required hole is 18" diameter x 11" deep.
> 
> The guy at the rental shop advised against the tractor mounted 3-point PTO auger, saying they're crap for going thru any root or rock, and they can't be backed out when they screw themselves in along side a root.  Stuff we already knew.  Since I "only need 42 holes, which ain't much," he suggested this:
> 
> ...



That contraption in the link will wear a guy out but will get the job done quick.  They suck at roots and rocks too.  Used one once and didn't love it.


----------



## MasterMech (Mar 22, 2013)

Joful said:


> 42 potted Norway spruce, 30" - 42" in 2 and 3 gallon pots. Required hole is 18" diameter x 11" deep.


 
Not that big of a hole at all.  Dingo with a digger maybe?  1" roots shouldn't foil an auger.  Or you could just keep digging by hand if you're up for it.


----------



## billb3 (Mar 22, 2013)

3 gallon pots and decent soil  I'd do by hand.
But the only clay I've dug in could be managed with a pick.
Which is required here for the hard gravel anyway.

Spruce usually grow pretty fast.
Hope you don't have to dust for the buggers that get into tip growth and spend too much time trimming double tips out.


----------



## charly (Mar 22, 2013)

I helped an old time arborist plant a bunch of trees,,, we used a back hoe... At the time I was working for a tree service in which I also planted trees with a 60 in tree spade... I found out that the back hoe was the way to go.. You want the soil loose enough in the hole so that the new hair roots can penetrate the new soil, otherwise you'll get roots that grow in a circle and girdle themselves killing the tree.. We actually added some better soil to the holes we dug as well... Make the holes big enough, stagger the trees in two rows if your planting to make a fence line of trees, that way they have room to grow...Don't mound the dirt or anything up to the trunk, leave the tree high enough out of the ground,,, too deep is no good..you should be able to see the flair at the base of the trunk... Tree spades are fast,,, that's it,,, the spades glaze the sides of the soil in the hole making it hard for the new roots to penetrate... Also take a garden hose and run it all around the root ball adding more soil until you have no air gaps and a nice mud pie all the way around, sticking the hose down to the bottom and back up.... Then water everyday....for weeks! Oh and makes sure they are plumb! If you stake trees don't leave them staked too long as the tree has a hormone that gives it's trunk strength sensing the wind some how.. leaving the stakes on too long will give you a weak trunk... A Tree Biology by Dr. Alex Shigo....Some pretty cool stuff about a trees life! Why spend that money and labor and not have nice trees? If I remember correctly , don't fertilize the trees the first year.. If you stake the trees, use wide webbing, wire or anything fine will girdle the trunk and kill the tree.. A loop runner or sling works well.. Hopefully you won't have to stake them. Good luck.. Remember the bigger the tree you plant, the longer the top growth will take to start growing,,, trees transplanted establish their root system first, once that's up to par and it can now support more top growth...


----------



## Ashful (Mar 23, 2013)

Ended up digging all 42 holes by hand.  Between interruptions, and tackling a few side jobs, I got 24 placed and back-filled.  Too tired to talk about it now... time for shower, Scotch, sleep.


----------

