# Stove won't draw; any suggestions appreciated (draft has been measured and is ok)



## redhorse (Feb 12, 2011)

We bought a Harman Tl 300 a couple weeks ago.  The tech was out today because we can't get it to burn right.  He measured draft with the bypass open (0.08) and closed (0.06).  Harman says a minimum of 0.03 is required for this stove to work right.

So, it's not the draft. The tech thinks it could be a air flow problem in the stove itself.  Tonight, I tried to get some coals built up and after two hours, was unable to get the stove burning (unless I opened the ash door or front load door).  The minute I closed everything up, with the air control wide open, the fire basically went out.

Does anyone have any ideas on what the problem might be?  Our wood is good (10-20% and Harman told us for this stove, 20% is actually better).

Any thought are appreciated (as we sit here shivering in this really cold house).


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## WidowMaker (Feb 12, 2011)

If the stove won't draw, how did you measure the draft, with the door open. What did your draft show with the door closed and the air controls of the set to burn as normal...


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## learnin to burn (Feb 12, 2011)

Try splitting a piece of your wood and measuring the moisture from the fresh split side.

I'm thinking wet wood!


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## redhorse (Feb 12, 2011)

The tech was here yesterday morning.  The draft was measured after we got a fire going (I had to leave the ash pan door open to get it going).  Then we closed all doors and  let it burn about 15 minutes that way and measured the draft.  Then we closed the damper, got it kicked into AB for 5  minutes then measured the draft.  Last night, I could get the wood to burn with the ash pan door open, but we didn't want to leave it that way for long periods of time.  When we closed the door, the fire would die down enough it would not do much of anything -- almost like we cut off all air supply.

We split four pieces of wood (needed to make kindling to restart the fire); moisture content was all below 20%, even on the inside.  We have a batch of kiln dried also and it wouldn't even burn.


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## learnin to burn (Feb 12, 2011)

Has the knock out for the OAK been removed in the back of the pedestal? 

Have you tried having a window open near the stove when trying to burn?


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## glassmanjpf (Feb 12, 2011)

Are there primary or secondary air intakes that perhaps the controls aren't controlling correctly?  Not familiar with your stove.  But perhaps they might have gotten stuck closed or clogged.  Just a thought.  Hope you figure it out


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## redhorse (Feb 12, 2011)

learnin to burn said:
			
		

> Has the knock out for the OAK been removed in the back of the pedestal?
> 
> Have you tried having a window open near the stove when trying to burn?



I believe it is (there's a 3" hole in the back of the pedestal in the very back piece of metal).

We've tried the open window (actually door) trick and it hasn't seemed to do much... but we have not left it open very long (maybe a half hour to see if it made any difference and when it didn't, we closed it).  

If it is a pressure inversion issue, would the draft have measured 0.06 in the stove?  The fire we had going wasn't a big roaring fire either.


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## dougand3 (Feb 12, 2011)

Describe your chimney...Tall or short? Straight up or curved? Interior or Exterior? If kiln dried wood won't become a raging inferno with stove door cracked and house window open - seems like it must be chimney.


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## learnin to burn (Feb 12, 2011)

If you can safely remove the ash pan look in at the bottom of the stove and see if there is another knock out in the bottom of the stove or if the air inlet is blocked some how. Make sure the air controls are working correctly also.


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## WhitePine (Feb 12, 2011)

Your description sounds like a brand new stove that hasn't been broken in. The firebricks still hold moisture. Did you follow the break in procedure? If your wood wasn't well seasoned, it would exacerbate the situation.


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## DonNC (Feb 12, 2011)

I have that problem but it is always the wood. Any chance u can double check your meter?

once i get the box hot enough I can start closing it down. I just dont get as much heat out of the burn as when I find the random dry peice
I usually hold the door open until the wood is afire... and when I close the door it dies down. I have to repeat until it finally stays let. Usually I throw pallet in there to kick start it.


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## redhorse (Feb 12, 2011)

dougand3 said:
			
		

> Describe your chimney...Tall or short? Straight up or curved? Interior or Exterior? If kiln dried wood won't become a raging inferno with stove door cracked and house window open - seems like it must be chimney.



Chimney is in an outside brick wall.  Two story home, top of chimney is about 4-5' above rooftop.  Straight up, masonry, but lined with 8" oval stainless.


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## redhorse (Feb 12, 2011)

WhitePine said:
			
		

> Your description sounds like a brand new stove that hasn't been broken in. The firebricks still hold moisture. Did you follow the break in procedure? If your wood wasn't well seasoned, it would exacerbate the situation.



There was no break in period suggested in the manual.  

The truth is, the stove was working better two weeks ago than it is now.  At least two weeks ago we were able to get a good hot fire going.  We can't even do that now, with drier, hotter burning wood.


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## redhorse (Feb 12, 2011)

learnin to burn said:
			
		

> If you can safely remove the ash pan look in at the bottom of the stove and see if there is another knock out in the bottom of the stove or if the air inlet is blocked some how. Make sure the air controls are working correctly also.



No additional knock outs in the ash pan compartment.  No air intake of any kind in there. 

When I had a fire going, I did play with the air control and watched the coals change in color, so I think that's working. But I'm going to crawl under there and see for sure.


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## redhorse (Feb 12, 2011)

DonNC said:
			
		

> I have that problem but it is always the wood. Any chance u can double check your meter?
> 
> once i get the box hot enough I can start closing it down. I just dont get as much heat out of the burn as when I find the random dry peice
> I usually hold the door open until the wood is afire... and when I close the door it dies down. I have to repeat until it finally stays let. Usually I throw pallet in there to kick start it.



We bought some kiln dried 12% just in case...


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## redhorse (Feb 12, 2011)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Is it possible to remove the connection at the thimble and with a mirror, to inspect what is there? I would look up and down to see how tight things are.



Next on our list it to get someone out here to inspect from the stove to the cap (more for safety right now actually).  But if the dealer says a draft of 0.03 is the minimal required and a draft of 0.06 is perfect, and our draft is 0.06, even if a bad connection were causing a draft issue, the draft we have is good enough by their definition...


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## rdust (Feb 12, 2011)

Having a stove operate properly doesn't involve many things.  Seasoned wood, stove in good working order and a chimney in good working order.  

How are you building the fire from a cold start?  At what point do you start to close the primary air etc?


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## dougand3 (Feb 12, 2011)

redhorse said:
			
		

> Chimney is in an outside brick wall.  Two story home, top of chimney is about 4-5' above rooftop.  Straight up, masonry, but lined with 8" oval stainless.



Is the SS liner insulated? If not, rockwool/kaowool insulation at the top may cause liner inside masonry to heat up and improve draft.


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## redhorse (Feb 12, 2011)

rdust said:
			
		

> Having a stove operate properly doesn't involve many things.  Seasoned wood, stove in good working order and a chimney in good working order.
> 
> How are you building the fire from a cold start?  At what point do you start to close the primary air etc?



We use small dry kindling about 1" in diameter on top of crumpled newspaper, then add 2", in a teepee, them keep adding larger pieces.  We add smaller splits until we get at least a 2" charcoal bed.  All this time we have the primary air open.  Once we get the load door to 400, we close the bypass damper and try for secondary.  If we don't get it, we up the temp 50 degrees and try again.  Usually goes in between 450 and 500.

The problem we are having now is that if we close all doors, even the startup fire dies (even if it's going good).  

I really think it's an airflow issue.  Just can't figure out why.


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## redhorse (Feb 12, 2011)

dougand3 said:
			
		

> redhorse said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nope, I don't think it's insulated.  But if our draft is at 0.06, does it need to be imnproved?


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## rdust (Feb 13, 2011)

redhorse said:
			
		

> The problem we are having now is that if we close all doors, even the startup fire dies (even if it's going good).
> 
> I really think it's an airflow issue.  Just can't figure out why.



So the stove worked better when it was first purchased?  If it worked better when you first bought it I have trouble believing the stove has developed a problem in the short time you've owned it.(anything can happen though)  I'd lean more towards the chimney or wood even if they both are testing "ok".  I'll be curious to see what happens when the chimney is inspected.


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## dougand3 (Feb 13, 2011)

I dunno about draft measurement #'s. Even if they are within tolerances, you have a real life problem. The TL300 manual states may use 6" or 8" round chimney or 8x8 or 8x12 masonry. Wow, that's a big range. With a 6" flue exit (28 sq in) - hard to believe it'd be happy with 8x12" (96 sq in).
Like you said above - call in the pro and get an inspection.


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## branchburner (Feb 13, 2011)

The stove is brand new, not used, correct? And is the fire going out (really "out" all the way?)with the bypass damper open, or only when it is closed?


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## grateful (Feb 13, 2011)

I owned a Harmon Oakwood a few years ago, it worked well for the first winter (3 months use) then it just died. It would not burn anything, just smoked outside and smelled bad inside the house. I disassembled the stove to remove it and found that the fiberglass gaskets could not tolerate the heat and were leaking. The after burner package can become plugged easily and needs to be removed and vacuumed. If I recall correctly Harmon does not address cleaning the afterburner package in their manual. I had a fiber insulation after burner that was very fragile, I think Harmon changed the material to some kind of mineral that is a bit sturdier, either way be very careful when cleaning. I spent way too much time trying to solve the Oakwood's problems, sealing all of the double wall stove pipe seams, replacing gaskets...  Traded it in for a Regency and life is good. I almost exchanged for a TL300 but came to the realization that a real wood stove with a history of reliability was the better choice.  It may sound ridiculous - if you have access to another wood stove hook it up to the same chimney( after a chimney inspection) and see what happens.

Grateful


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## traditions (Feb 13, 2011)

Do you have a chimney clean out that you can look up the chimney with a small mirror to see if the top is clogged up with soot?


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## redhorse (Feb 13, 2011)

branchburner said:
			
		

> The stove is brand new, not used, correct? And is the fire going out (really "out" all the way?)with the bypass damper open, or only when it is closed?



The stove is new from the factory.  The fire dies down and smokes until it goes out with the bypass open, unless we crack the the ash pan door or front load door, in which case the fire just roars.


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## redhorse (Feb 13, 2011)

grateful said:
			
		

> I owned a Harmon Oakwood a few years ago, it worked well for the first winter (3 months use) then it just died. It would not burn anything, just smoked outside and smelled bad inside the house. I disassembled the stove to remove it and found that the fiberglass gaskets could not tolerate the heat and were leaking. The after burner package can become plugged easily and needs to be removed and vacuumed. If I recall correctly Harmon does not address cleaning the afterburner package in their manual. I had a fiber insulation after burner that was very fragile, I think Harmon changed the material to some kind of mineral that is a bit sturdier, either way be very careful when cleaning. I spent way too much time trying to solve the Oakwood's problems, sealing all of the double wall stove pipe seams, replacing gaskets...  Traded it in for a Regency and life is good. I almost exchanged for a TL300 but came to the realization that a real wood stove with a history of reliability was the better choice.  It may sound ridiculous - if you have access to another wood stove hook it up to the same chimney( after a chimney inspection) and see what happens.
> 
> Grateful



According to the tech that was here, the firedome is still made of fiberglass (but he didn't really sound like he was an authority and had never even seen one of these stoves burn).  Don't have access to another wood stove, but had an old one in here that seemed to work fine before we pulled it to put in this one.

No, Harman does not address cleaning the afterburner in the manual.  We had decided to have a tech come and service the stove (clean it, inspect gaskets, etc) every spring and also have them clean/inspect the chimney.  The tech pulled out some stones in inside, but did nothing in the back of the stove (said he could not do it by himself and needed an additional person). 

I'll pass this info along to the tech; he seems to be floundering right now.


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## redhorse (Feb 13, 2011)

traditions said:
			
		

> Do you have a chimney clean out that you can look up the chimney with a small mirror to see if the top is clogged up with soot?



Tried that Friday but can't seem to get quite the right angle to look up the chimney.  But we had the chimney cleaned a couple weeks before we had the stove installed.


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## dougand3 (Feb 13, 2011)

redhorse said:
			
		

> The stove is new from the factory.  The fire dies down and smokes until it goes out with the bypass open, unless we crack the the ash pan door or front load door, in which case the fire just roars.



If you CAN get a roaring fire w/ front door cracked - that brings in a stove air intake problem possibility. But doesn't rule out lazy draft - liner too cool unless LOTS of hot gas feeding it. I still think an insulated liner will do wonders here.


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## grateful (Feb 13, 2011)

If your TL 300 worked fine for 2 weeks and nothing has changed in the internal or external environment then it is the stove, unless a raccoon took up residence in your chimney. I have an Excel Chimney, stainless insulated and it worked fine for 3 months with the Harmon. I'm using the same chimney with a Regency and have had no problems for 2 years. My Oakwood had the same combustion package that Your TL 300 has, the only difference is cast iron vs steel. My Oakwood had a small crack in the bottom under the firedome but that crack would typically improve burning. I was baffled when I could not get the Oakwood to burn and that propelled me to solve the problem (replaced most of the gaskets, i.e. top, side panels, front panel, door, no luck there! My time and expense. Most of the gaskets were leaking but that does not account for the stoves inability to burn even the driest kiln dried wood, it wouldn't burn with new gaskets! All of my Harmon's symptoms match your stoves symptoms except I had a bad smell in the house. If you do a quick search on the Hearth site, look for smoke smell or Harmon Oakwood and you will experience deja vu! I was delighted when the stove shop owner offered to exchange the Harmon for a stove of my choice. 

Grateful


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## branchburner (Feb 13, 2011)

It does sound like the combustion air is not reaching the firebox for some reason. Maybe your tech can get an earlier-than-planned start on opening up the stove for cleaning and inspection. Removing the combustion package should show if the secondary inflow was obstructed.


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## redhorse (Feb 14, 2011)

grateful said:
			
		

> If your TL 300 worked fine for 2 weeks and nothing has changed in the internal or external environment then it is the stove, unless a raccoon took up residence in your chimney. I have an Excel Chimney, stainless insulated and it worked fine for 3 months with the Harmon. I'm using the same chimney with a Regency and have had no problems for 2 years. My Oakwood had the same combustion package that Your TL 300 has, the only difference is cast iron vs steel. My Oakwood had a small crack in the bottom under the firedome but that crack would typically improve burning. I was baffled when I could not get the Oakwood to burn and that propelled me to solve the problem (replaced most of the gaskets, i.e. top, side panels, front panel, door, no luck there! My time and expense. Most of the gaskets were leaking but that does not account for the stoves inability to burn even the driest kiln dried wood, it wouldn't burn with new gaskets! All of my Harmon's symptoms match your stoves symptoms except I had a bad smell in the house. If you do a quick search on the Hearth site, look for smoke smell or Harmon Oakwood and you will experience deja vu! I was delighted when the stove shop owner offered to exchange the Harmon for a stove of my choice.
> 
> Grateful



We are to the point where we are hoping they offer us an exchange as well.  I've just heard so many good things about this stove.  I did a search and I got the "deja vu".  Gives me some info to share with the tech.  Thanks.


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## redhorse (Feb 14, 2011)

branchburner said:
			
		

> It does sound like the combustion air is not reaching the firebox for some reason. Maybe your tech can get an earlier-than-planned start on opening up the stove for cleaning and inspection. Removing the combustion package should show if the secondary inflow was obstructed.



What scares me is that he has admitted never working on the TL300 before.  I'm hoping he has some experience with the Harman firedome anyway; or that Harman will send someone who can perhaps make a better diagnosis.

We're just flipping happy the weather is going to so nice this week (high in the 50s by Thursday).   I don't even want to think about how much swearing would be going on around here if it were going to single digits all week.


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## grateful (Feb 14, 2011)

The stove shop that I purchased my Harmon from would send a chimney cleaning person over to check my stove, that didn't feel right so I did my own research and work.
I checked the Harmon oakwood manual - the primary air supply is in the front of the stove, this is the air supply that feeds the combustion chamber until the bypass damper is closed. After the damper is closed the air is drawn from the secondary air supply in the back of the stove. I think the TL300 has the same primary and secondary. I vacuumed the warming channels of the primary air supply with a small hose attached to the shop vac, no ash accumulation in the channels. When I disassembled the stove the primary air channels were clean. If your TL 300 has a blockage it would have to be in the primary air supply, I don't think you will find anything there based on my experience. I put a piece of incense near the primary air supply to be sure there was adequate draw. When the stove is cool you can put the vacuum hose under the primary air intake and see if you get anything.
Interesting that Harmon does not get involved in these issues, they refer you to the retailer. 
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that pieces of cast iron cracked and fell off of my stove, Harmon sent me replacement parts, no charge.


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## grateful (Feb 14, 2011)

Fire your TL300 up when it is in the 50s, that will eliminate the cold chimney issue. Out here in Washington when it gets real cold and I have to clean the chimney I put a propane torch in the flue for 5 minutes to heat it.


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## redhorse (Feb 14, 2011)

grateful said:
			
		

> Fire your TL300 up when it is in the 50s, that will eliminate the cold chimney issue. Out here in Washington when it gets real cold and I have to clean the chimney I put a propane torch in the flue for 5 minutes to heat it.



We're planning on firing it up this week -- plus leaving a window open just to make sure it's not an inversion issue -- so wanted to do that during warmer weather. I can't help but think if it were a cold chimney problem, opening the front front load door or ash pan door wouldn't get the fire roaring immediately as it does.  

Propane torch?  That's really a good idea.  I usually just light a tighlty rolled/twisted stack of paper and hold it there for a minute or two...


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## redhorse (Feb 14, 2011)

grateful said:
			
		

> Interesting that Harmon does not get involved in these issues, they refer you to the retailer.



We have a friend who is very good friends the daughter of the guy who invented the stove and she's pretty far up in the company currently. If we don't get anything resolved, he's going to give her a call to see if she can do anything.  

I would think Harman would have "super techs" that could be sent out to sites with these types of issues, particularly since the "trained techs" from the dealers really don't know much.  And this tech?  I scheduled him to come out and he called me that morning to let me know he was coming.  His job is cleaning and maintaining these stoves.  So I told him the top load door seal might be bad and he said he didn't carry gaskets on his truck -- he only carries the pieces he might need on a "regular basis."  What?  Wouldn't gaskets be a normal wear/tear item? If not gaskets, what parts would he carry instead?


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## branchburner (Feb 14, 2011)

grateful said:
			
		

> If your TL 300 has a blockage it would have to be in the primary air supply.



If the primary air was blocked, there would be little difference in the fire regardless of whether the air control was open or shut. Redhorse, how much of a difference does it make when the control is fully open vs. fully shut? (Assuming you have the ashpan and front doors shut.)


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## redhorse (Feb 14, 2011)

branchburner said:
			
		

> grateful said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Very little difference.  We do see a slight increase in the redness of the coals.  When the tech was here, we shut all the doors and played with the air control side.  He said it was working because the charcoal got brighter and dimmer.  But the difference was barely noticeable, and there was certainly no flame that jumped up (like it did when cracking the front load door or ash pan door).


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## DanCorcoran (Feb 14, 2011)

redhorse said:
			
		

> Very little difference.  We do see a slight increase in the redness of the coals.  When the tech was here, we shut all the doors and played with the air control side.  He said it was working because the charcoal got brighter and dimmer.  But the difference was barely noticeable, and there was certainly no flame that jumped up (like it did when cracking the front load door or ash pan door).



Seems to me that you have your answer...something directly related to the air control.


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## branchburner (Feb 14, 2011)

I don't know proportionally how much air enters the firebox from the primary openings and the secondary openings, but it comes from both, so I would not rule out the secondary source as the problem.

If I get a really good fire going with the primary fully open, and then shut it fully, there is ample air still entering the box via the secondary channels to keep the fire going strong. (The flames will die off only at the very front of the firebox, where the primary feeds down as airwash from above the door glass.)

Of course, since I cannot control the secondary, I have no way of knowing how the stove would perform if the secondary air was cut off. Of what little flames/coals may remain with the doors shut, do they appear to be fed from the front of the stove or the rear?


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## redhorse (Feb 14, 2011)

branchburner said:
			
		

> Of course, since I cannot control the secondary, I have no way of knowing how the stove would perform if the secondary air was cut off. Of what little flames/coals may remain with the doors shut, do they appear to be fed from the front of the stove or the rear?



The rear, definitely.


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## murawski (Feb 14, 2011)

I had similiar problem. I only had 11 feet of chimney.I added 6 feet of class a chimney pipe to my existing>
How many feet do you have of total chimney pipe - inside and outside?

Mike


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## branchburner (Feb 14, 2011)

You have 6" round pipe going to 8" oval, and it's a continuous liner all the way from stove to chimney top, correct? How is the stovepipe connected to the 8" liner (are all connections screwed), and is there any chance that there is a leak somewhere in the flue setup that is compromising the draft? Just wondering if there's something about the install that is causing a draft problem, in spite of the seemingly good draft measurements.


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## redhorse (Feb 14, 2011)

murawski said:
			
		

> I had similiar problem. I only had 11 feet of chimney.I added 6 feet of class a chimney pipe to my existing>
> How many feet do you have of total chimney pipe - inside and outside?
> 
> Mike



Hmmm, two story, about 8' each, 3' from the floor, then another 5' above the roof... 18 or 19' probably?


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## redhorse (Feb 14, 2011)

branchburner said:
			
		

> You have 6" round pipe going to 8" oval, and it's a continuous liner all the way from stove to chimney top, correct? How is the stovepipe connected to the 8" liner (are all connections screwed), and is there any chance that there is a leak somewhere in the flue setup that is compromising the draft? Just wondering if there's something about the install that is causing a draft problem, in spite of the seemingly good draft measurements.



I need to check with installer on this to be sure.  They were supposed to use a 6" to 8" connector. But when they pulled everything apart, they said they found hte 8" going to the liner by simply butting up against it (no connection).  So they said they reused the 8" original pipe and crimped the end to fit it inside the liner and stuffed it full of insulation.  I don't know how the 6" fits with that (if the 6" is inside the 8" and simply hanging out in the liner, or if the 6" is connected to the 8", etc.).  I have a phone call to the installer but have not heard back anything yet.


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## grateful (Feb 14, 2011)

Since you have a Harmon connection I will just sit back and read the posts, wish I had a connection when I had the Oakwood. After extensive research I chose Harmon because I wanted low emissions and a top loader. My house has a boiler but my primary heat is wood and I could not delay any longer so I traded it in. Good luck and please let us know what  caused your TL300 dilemma.

Grateful


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## branchburner (Feb 14, 2011)

redhorse said:
			
		

> So they said they reused the 8" original pipe and crimped the end to fit it inside the liner and stuffed it full of insulation.  I don't know how the 6" fits with that (if the 6" is inside the 8" and simply hanging out in the liner, or if the 6" is connected to the 8", etc.).



I don't like how that sounds. I would focus on getting that connction corrected - everything should fit snugly, in a continuous and airtight manner. Insulation to fill space between a joint of different size pipes is not airtight and is unacceptable.


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## murawski (Feb 14, 2011)

Redhorse, give me a call 978-875-0973 want to speak with you about our stove problems

Mike


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## branchburner (Feb 14, 2011)

murawski said:
			
		

> I had similiar problem. I only had 11 feet of chimney.I added 6 feet of class a chimney pipe to my existing



Still having draft probs?


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## redhorse (Feb 15, 2011)

branchburner said:
			
		

> I don't like how that sounds. I would focus on getting that connction corrected - everything should fit snugly, in a continuous and airtight manner. Insulation to fill space between a joint of different size pipes is not airtight and is unacceptable.



I don't like it either. I finally got word back from the installer -- they just put the 6" inside the 8".  The 8" in crimped into a hole in the liner; the 6" is just sitting inside of it, but the 6" does run in one continuous piece from the stove to the opening in the liner and he said the crimp is fairly snug.  The insulation is stuffed between the two pipes at the end closest to the stove.

Just one more thing to get fixed... sigh.


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## redhorse (Feb 16, 2011)

Ok, I just went out to the chimney cleanout to check for chimney obstructions.  I have a piece of foil over the cleanout door right now since it's not air tight. 

I pulled the foil and there is nothing blocking the chimney.  However, when I went to put the foil back in place, it sucked right onto the opening and stayed there without closing the door.  The stove has been shut down since Friday, so the chimney is not warm and it seems to me that if the foil gets sucked onto the opening like that, there is definitely draft.

So I go inside and check the stove, light a match, hold it up to the damper opening and not much draft.  Now I can't figure out there is good draft in the chimney and not much at the stove.  I guess I need to do more exploring...


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## dougand3 (Feb 16, 2011)

Is the chimney cleanout downstream from the 6" to 8" jury rigged connection? I'd get the 6"- 8" connection airtight.


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## branchburner (Feb 16, 2011)

redhorse said:
			
		

> Now I can't figure out there is good draft in the chimney and not much at the stove.  I guess I need to do more exploring...



The draft should be in the liner, not the chimney itself. If the chimney liner runs airtight from the stove to the chimney top, and is sealed there with a top plate, there should be no airflow in the chimney space that surrounds the liner - that should be dead air. So my next question - is there a sealed top plate that the liner goes through when it reaches the chimney top?


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## redhorse (Feb 16, 2011)

dougand3 said:
			
		

> Is the chimney cleanout downstream from the 6" to 8" jury rigged connection? I'd get the 6"- 8" connection airtight.



Yes, about 2 to 3 feet.


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## redhorse (Feb 16, 2011)

branchburner said:
			
		

> redhorse said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't believe so; I think the liner goes up and has a chimney cap.   But I'll have to get up there to see for sure.  When I looked up the chimney with the mirror, I could only see out of the liner, if that makes any sense (I could only see an oval of light, not an oval inside a square).


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## branchburner (Feb 17, 2011)

Not sure if I can picture your setup, but it sounds like there may be a few possible ways air could be drawn into that flue. Any significant leaks could be compromising the draft, and I'd say the odds of that are much more likely than any defect in the stove itself. Rather than simply getting feedback from the original installer, who may just defend his potentially shoddy work, you might try getting a second opinion from a sweep or other qualified individual.


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## oconnor (Feb 17, 2011)

redhorse said:
			
		

> Ok, I just went out to the chimney cleanout to check for chimney obstructions.  I have a piece of foil over the cleanout door right now since it's not air tight.
> 
> I pulled the foil and there is nothing blocking the chimney.  However, when I went to put the foil back in place, it sucked right onto the opening and stayed there without closing the door.  The stove has been shut down since Friday, so the chimney is not warm and it seems to me that if the foil gets sucked onto the opening like that, there is definitely draft.
> 
> So I go inside and check the stove, light a match, hold it up to the damper opening and not much draft.  Now I can't figure out there is good draft in the chimney and not much at the stove.  I guess I need to do more exploring...


So when you use a mirror you can see all the way up the liner to the top?  The liner is supposed to be closed at the bottom - if it is open, then the chimney will draw air from around the outside of the liner instead of from within the stove.  I have attached a pic from the Selkirk Saf T Liner manual as an example. You will notice that there is a termination cap at the bottom of the liner, either below the appliance tee or inside the cleanout door of the masonry flue.  If you didn't have to remove a cap from the base of your liner, then it isn't installed right. Have the installer show you the installation manual and ensure they followed it.

To sum up, your chimney will draft better when it is only open on one end - the top - instead of being open top and bottom.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 18, 2011)

Iv had my TL-300 in 2 different locations so far,one is an 8x8 brick outside chimney about 25 Ft tall   the other was an inside brick about 6x7and 25Ft tall .  Worked great in both set ups.  Im wondering red did the performance change about the same time you changed wood or dont the two things coinside. I think you have an obstruction in the internal airway somewhere. Thats what it sounds like anyway.
 After 2 solid years of burning my stove my after burn chamber is clean and so is the chimney. One thing to note i usually cant get into afterburn with less than a 500-550 Load door temp,but once it starts it can drop to 400 and it wont stall.


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## redhorse (Feb 18, 2011)

CleanBurnin said:
			
		

> So when you use a mirror you can see all the way up the liner to the top?  The liner is supposed to be closed at the bottom - if it is open, then the chimney will draw air from around the outside of the liner instead of from within the stove.  I have attached a pic from the Selkirk Saf T Liner manual as an example. You will notice that there is a termination cap at the bottom of the liner, either below the appliance tee or inside the cleanout door of the masonry flue.  If you didn't have to remove a cap from the base of your liner, then it isn't installed right. Have the installer show you the installation manual and ensure they followed it.
> 
> To sum up, your chimney will draft better when it is only open on one end - the top - instead of being open top and bottom.



As the above poster mentioned, this stove works with a completely open masonry chimney...so I'd think it would work with a liner that is open.  But maybe the liner being open on the bottom changes the draft...


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## redhorse (Feb 18, 2011)

trump said:
			
		

> Iv had my TL-300 in 2 different locations so far,one is an 8x8 brick outside chimney about 25 Ft tall   the other was an inside brick about 6x7and 25Ft tall .  Worked great in both set ups.  Im wondering red did the performance change about the same time you changed wood or dont the two things coinside. I think you have an obstruction in the internal airway somewhere. Thats what it sounds like anyway.
> After 2 solid years of burning my stove my after burn chamber is clean and so is the chimney. One thing to note i usually cant get into afterburn with less than a 500-550 Load door temp,but once it starts it can drop to 400 and it wont stall.



The performance was really bad so we went with drier wood; no real difference, other than we can get it up to temp slightly faster.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 19, 2011)

redhorse said:
			
		

> trump said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Im convinced its an obstruction internally,for me i would probably be taking out the flue pipe and forcing air from a shop vac backwards through the stove to see if theres anything exiting the intake areas. I do clean the secondary intake holes occasionally with a shop vac,the ones in the bottom of the firedome,the tend to get some ash i them after a few weeks. I think the dealer should be offering more help
either finding the problem or exchanging the stove, A problem like yours is bad advertisement for a stove company and a dealer. Lots of dealer complaints,my dealers people were also clueless about the stove as well and thats how i ended up on this website.


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## branchburner (Feb 19, 2011)

redhorse said:
			
		

> CleanBurnin said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Changes it big time! A completely open masonry chimney does not mean it is open at the bottom - it is still a "closed system" for the most part. If a masonry chimney was open at the bottom, it would perform poorly. Close up your liner system and I bet the stove will work fine.


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## redhorse (Feb 19, 2011)

branchburner said:
			
		

> Changes it big time! A completely open masonry chimney does not mean it is open at the bottom - it is still a "closed system" for the most part. If a masonry chimney was open at the bottom, it would perform poorly. Close up your liner system and I bet the stove will work fine.



But the liner is inside the masonry chimney.  It appears there is some sort of plate on top, so it should, theoretically, still be a closed system, even if the liner is open at the bottom.  

However, I am going to get someone out here to redo the liner. I didn't like the fact that the yahoos that put in the liner simply butted the stove pipe up against the liner instead of putting in a good connection.


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## branchburner (Feb 19, 2011)

redhorse said:
			
		

> But the liner is inside the masonry chimney.  It appears there is some sort of plate on top, so it should, theoretically, still be a closed system, even if the liner is open at the bottom.



Theoretically, but between the top plate and the clean-out door there is a chance some air is getting in unless they are perfectly sealed. Your liner system is definitely open, and if it was closed it could ONLY be pulling air from the stove. Whether the larger system of the entire chimney is open or closed is uncertain, but we can be pretty certain you do not have a vacuum in all that space outside the liner. 

I think if the fire is going out unless the ashpan door is open, that is likely telling you of a system problem; if you close off the smaller liner system within it, the larger system of the chimney becomes a non-issue. I'd suggest BOTH fixing the liner/stovepipe connection AND capping the bottom of the liner.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 19, 2011)

branchburner said:
			
		

> redhorse said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Branchburner may be on to something red ,when the ash door is open it drafts fine, when you close it the draft may be pulling from a less restrictive area as in leaks ,openings  in the flue system, you definitely have a draft problem and its either in the stove (unlikely but not impossible) or the flue system (more likely). 
That may be one reason why the dealers are hesitant to commit a lot of resources to these kind of problems where the stove is blamed initially but later its found the flue system is the culprit. But again
were not ruling out the stove just yet.


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## redhorse (Feb 20, 2011)

trump said:
			
		

> Branchburner may be on to something red ,when the ash door is open it drafts fine, when you close it the draft may be pulling from a less restrictive area as in leaks ,openings  in the flue system, you definitely have a draft problem and its either in the stove (unlikely but not impossible) or the flue system (more likely).
> That may be one reason why the dealers are hesitant to commit a lot of resources to these kind of problems where the stove is blamed initially but later its found the flue system is the culprit. But again
> were not ruling out the stove just yet.



Hopefully, we can get the flue system issues resolved this week.  But since Harman says this stove needs a minimum draft of 0.03 and the draft was measured at 0.06 (with the bypass close in AB), it makes me wonder.  At least we will be able to tell the dealer it's definitely not the chimney.

I do understand the dealer not wanting to commit tons of resources if it's a flue system problem, but they basically ruled that out after checking the draft.  I haven't heard a word from them since.   If the stove is that picky about draft, dealers really should inspect the chimney systems to give the owners a heads up if that system will require modification for the stove to work properly if the buyer is paying for installation.  IMO, making sure the chimney system is acceptable should be part of the initial inspection/price quote for install; this dealer visits each home and checks everything out to give an accurate price for installation.  

We paid them roughly $500 to do the install (which included delivery, double walled stove pipe to get things up to code, and removing the old stove).  It was our understanding that by paying them for the install, things would work when they were done. They never checked the flue system.  If we had simply bought the stove and installed it ourselves, I wouldn't be blaming the dealer; but since they did the install for a very hefty charge, one would think they would check everything.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 20, 2011)

All stoves have draft requirements, you have an airflow problem that seems to have developed sometime After you had the stove put in,working correctly for a few weeks at first. If the stove indeed has some airway obstruction,what is it and where did i come from,very unusual situation. Did you ever take the pipe off and check the area below where the flue pipe attaches?IF you close the bypass you can see all around the firedome area in back right to the bottom of the stove. When i first got my stove and did not know how to get it into afterburn and after one night of smoldering i had quite a build up or creosote inside the stove ,and that was with dry wood,i would imagine burning wet wood over a few weeks time without being into reburn for each load could create quite a buildup  inside the stove. Just an idea i thought i would throw out there. IS the dealer ignoring your calls?


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## redhorse (Feb 20, 2011)

trump said:
			
		

> All stoves have draft requirements, you have an airflow problem that seems to have developed sometime After you had the stove put in,working correctly for a few weeks at first. If the stove indeed has some airway obstruction,what is it and where did i come from,very unusual situation. Did you ever take the pipe off and check the area below where the flue pipe attaches?IF you close the bypass you can see all around the firedome area in back right to the bottom of the stove. When i first got my stove and did not know how to get it into afterburn and after one night of smoldering i had quite a build up or creosote inside the stove ,and that was with dry wood,i would imagine burning wet wood over a few weeks time without being into reburn for each load could create quite a buildup  inside the stove. Just an idea i thought i would throw out there. IS the dealer ignoring your calls?



When the tech was here, he checked for creosote and said he found none inside the stove. He also removed the bricks inside the stove and checked out the firedone.  He said everything looked fine.

The stove never really worked "correctly" -- at least we don't think it did, as it has never heated like it should. However, we thought the original problem was because the wood we were using was closer to 20% in moisture and was too wet (or just the wrong type of wood that didn't have a high BTU content).  The tech told me Harman told him they test these stoves in the labs with wood 18-22%; he told me he thought our wood was too dry since Harman told him that range was the best... In fact, he told me to find the wettest wood we had when he came here to check out the stove.

They are pretty much ignoring our calls now.  They tell us "we have to check with Harman and get back to you".  However, after we get the flue system upgraded, if we still have a problem, I'll feel much more confident telling them it is a stove issue.  If the problem goes away, I'm still going to call them and let them know if they plan to charge that much for installation, they should at least let people if their flue systems need an upgrade before the stove will work properly.


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## Peter B. (Feb 20, 2011)

Once again, the fact that there's no cap at the bottom of your liner is a <very> likely source of draft related problems.

I would cap it first thing and try to burn again.

Peter B.

-----


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## redhorse (Feb 21, 2011)

Peter B. said:
			
		

> Once again, the fact that there's no cap at the bottom of your liner is a <very> likely source of draft related problems.
> 
> I would cap it first thing and try to burn again.
> 
> ...



I'm hoping the guy coming out tomorrow morning can at least get some sort of temporary cap on the bottom; he may have to pull the entire liner and put in a new one to get the stove pipe correctly connected to the liner, but he can't do that tomorrow.  But we'd really like to get the stove going again; it's going to be in the low teens or single digits Tuesday night.

The conversation I had with the person coming tomorrow was interesting; he said the majority of installations that he sees for oval liners are done incorrectly and he's spent his fair share of time fixing them.


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## webbie (Feb 21, 2011)

Even stuffing some insulation down there if the stove can be disconnected would likely do the job.

This is most definitely a draft problem of sorts. However, we should all be aware that the combustion system in that stove is similar to the Everburn and old Acclaims and Lopi Leyden...that is, a downdraft setup! This type of setup requires a much stronger pull than many other stoves to work well.

Some if it is in operation also....you have to get a good bed of embers for proper operation.

Here is a wiki entry related to this combustion system:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/Downdraft_Stove_Operation/

Measurement of draft will not tell the real story.......it varies so much with wood stove depending on too many variables.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 21, 2011)

Red
I cant see how your wood could be "too dry" ,i burn wood that is 100 years old and has been drying for that period of time. You said you did not think your stove was heating properly,that would be either a result of wet wood,too little draft or not in reburn.IMO The last place i had my stove there was an open cleanout in the basement which i plugged in order to strengthen the draft through the stove. When working properly this stove will roast you out There are several other guys on hearth,com using this stove with very good results. Im wondering if you have adequate draft until you close the bypass and then you chimney starts pulling from a path of less resistance via your open cleanout.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 21, 2011)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Even stuffing some insulation down there if the stove can be disconnected would likely do the job.
> 
> This is most definitely a draft problem of sorts. However, we should all be aware that the combustion system in that stove is similar to the Everburn and old Acclaims and Lopi Leyden...that is, a downdraft setup! This type of setup requires a much stronger pull than many other stoves to work well.
> 
> ...



Your link is a very good example of this stoves operation, however i have found the TL-300 i own is not as demanding as described there, i can get it into afterburn in less than an hour from a cold stove and about 15 minutes in the morning if its still warm.


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## redhorse (Feb 22, 2011)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Even stuffing some insulation down there if the stove can be disconnected would likely do the job.
> 
> This is most definitely a draft problem of sorts. However, we should all be aware that the combustion system in that stove is similar to the Everburn and old Acclaims and Lopi Leyden...that is, a downdraft setup! This type of setup requires a much stronger pull than many other stoves to work well.
> 
> ...



Nice article... and informative!  Thanks!


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## redhorse (Feb 22, 2011)

trump said:
			
		

> Red
> I cant see how your wood could be "too dry" ,i burn wood that is 100 years old and has been drying for that period of time. You said you did not think your stove was heating properly,that would be either a result of wet wood,too little draft or not in reburn.IMO The last place i had my stove there was an open cleanout in the basement which i plugged in order to strengthen the draft through the stove. When working properly this stove will roast you out There are several other guys on hearth,com using this stove with very good results. Im wondering if you have adequate draft until you close the bypass and then you chimney starts pulling from a path of less resistance via your open cleanout.



Harman told the tech if the wood is too dry, it just burns up and doesn't "smolder" to produce the smoke to be burned to create the heat.  I can see where if the wood is really dry it may not last as long; but I can't see how that would make it not go into AB.  The tech that came out was going to go find wet wood so he could see if Harman was right.  I immediately told him about you and how you burn wood from old houses and I was pretty sure that wood was very dry.  

The chimney repairman that came out today said our chimney is a mess.  The liner is not insulated; the pipe from the stove does not connect to the liner; the liner has no terminal cap; and it looks like there is no metal plate at the top to keep air from flowing freely around the liner.  He's going to give us a quote on putting in a 6" liner (to match the stove), with insulation, all airtight from the stove to the roof.  I had hoped he could put some sort of cap on the bottom of the liner or figure out a way to block it somehow so we could at least use the stove for the next couple days, but we didn't have any luck at that.  

So, I guess we'll get to wait a week or two before we see if the stove is going to work once the draft issues are solved.  I did learn a ton of info from this post and I want to thank everyone who replied; lots of very good information.  I learned a lot about chimneys in a few short days!


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## pen (Feb 22, 2011)

redhorse said:
			
		

> So, I guess we'll get to wait a week or two before we see if the stove is going to work once the draft issues are solved.  I did learn a ton of info from this post and I want to thank everyone who replied; lots of very good information.  I learned a lot about chimneys in a few short days!



Thumbs up to you to being wise enough to look for help when you knew something wasn't right.

W/ those problems your chimney guy described your issues have become MUCH greater than poor performance, we are talking a lack of safety which can't be fooled around with.

I have no doubt in my mind that you are going to see a significant difference once this mess is corrected.  

Did a professional install this disaster?  Or did you buy the home this way?

pen


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 22, 2011)

Red 
What about craigs suggestion of taking the pipe off at the thimble where it attaches to the chimney and stuffing some insulation down there to block off unwanted airflow from below? Possibly the air is coming in around your liner at the top then traveling down to the bottom and coming back up the flue,thereby reducing draft strength. Sounds like something i would try. If you wait around long enough winter will be over..


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## branchburner (Feb 22, 2011)

redhorse said:
			
		

> Harman told the tech if the wood is too dry, it just burns up and doesn't "smolder" to produce the smoke to be burned to create the heat.



I could only see this being the case if you were burning something like dry pine 2x4s, which would get the stove top hot but would not provide the needed coal bed. Once I have a good hardwood coal bed, I can burn most anything dry and get the AB to work. If you close the primary air, even dry things will "smolder". I've occasionally done loads with pine cones, walnuts, bags of sawdust, etc. These things I only put in after the AB has already been going with a good load or two of hardwood. It's all about the coal bed. I strongly disagree that there is such a thing as hardwood splits that are "too dry" for this stove. Too wet, yes indeed.

Sorry to hear you couldn't get a temporary fix, but you should be very happy with your "new stove" once things are in order. A 6" insulated liner is ideal, but I imagine 8" uninsulated could still work if the three major flaws were fixed: top plate, bottom cap, and stove pipe connection.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 22, 2011)

branchburner said:
			
		

> redhorse said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I second that ,Iv never found wood "too dry"  to get secondaries,I get secondaries with 2x4 as well they burn hot and faster than hardwood just not as long. Pine is a good fire starter but not as good for an overnighter.


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## redhorse (Feb 22, 2011)

pen said:
			
		

> Did a professional install this disaster?  Or did you buy the home this way?
> pen



A "professional" installed it this way when they inspected the chimney and found broken tiles.  Had I only known about Hearth.com back them...


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## redhorse (Feb 22, 2011)

trump said:
			
		

> Red
> What about craigs suggestion of taking the pipe off at the thimble where it attaches to the chimney and stuffing some insulation down there to block off unwanted airflow from below? Possibly the air is coming in around your liner at the top then traveling down to the bottom and coming back up the flue,thereby reducing draft strength. Sounds like something i would try. If you wait around long enough winter will be over..



We can't reach it around behind the liner.  I may try to stuff something up the clean out door -- we can feel the end of the liner from there. 

It's going to be record lows tonight; our heat pump has the house at 65 right now, but that won't last long if it gets into the single digits.  So I think I'll try to do something this afternoon...


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## oldspark (Feb 22, 2011)

trump said:
			
		

> branchburner said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


+ 1, too dry of wood will be quite the light show, any one who says the opposite is not a woodburner IMHO.


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## MishMouse (Feb 22, 2011)

I think once you get your issues fixed the stove will perform the way it is expected.


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## branchburner (Feb 22, 2011)

redhorse said:
			
		

> A "professional" installed it this way when they inspected the chimney and found broken tiles.



broken tiles = get liner insulated


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## redhorse (Feb 23, 2011)

OK, we fashioned a terminal cap for the bottom of the liner. We used aluminum foil with insulation inside and then fashioned a "bubble" (actually looks a lot like a flapper on a toilet), stuffed it up inside and pinched it as well as we could all around the bottom of the liner. We did wire it down just to make sure it didn't sucked up the liner, but it's larger and heavier so should not be an issue. Started a fire and simply could not believe the difference.  In about an hour, had it in AB. It's throwing heat like we've never seen before.  

We are both sitting here nice and warm, cursing those who installed the first liner.  I have contacted the company and am waiting to see what they say, but I'm not keeping my fingers crossed.


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## pen (Feb 23, 2011)

I'm glad to hear that you are getting the draft you should.  I knew you wouldn't believe the difference.

I'm having a hard time envisioning what the repair actually was and sure hope it's safe.  I'd feel better if you could snap a few pics and share them.

pen


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 23, 2011)

redhorse said:
			
		

> OK, we fashioned a terminal cap for the bottom of the liner. We used aluminum foil with insulation inside and then fashioned a "bubble" (actually looks a lot like a flapper on a toilet), stuffed it up inside and pinched it as well as we could all around the bottom of the liner. We did wire it down just to make sure it didn't sucked up the liner, but it's larger and heavier so should not be an issue. Started a fire and simply could not believe the difference.  In about an hour, had it in AB. It's throwing heat like we've never seen before.
> 
> We are both sitting here nice and warm, cursing those who installed the first liner.  I have contacted the company and am waiting to see what they say, but I'm not keeping my fingers crossed.


Hindsight is 20-20 but i think i may have been close with one of my last observations which was 

"Im wondering if you have adequate draft until you close the bypass and then you chimney starts pulling from a path of less resistance via your open cleanout." 

Anyway im glad you can start to enjoy your stove with whats left of the winter.
Regards


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## redhorse (Feb 23, 2011)

pen said:
			
		

> I'm glad to hear that you are getting the draft you should.  I knew you wouldn't believe the difference.
> I'm having a hard time envisioning what the repair actually was and sure hope it's safe.  I'd feel better if you could snap a few pics and share them.
> pen



I don't think we can get a picture that would show anything since it's inside the chimney.  The liner basically comes down within a foot of the clean out door on the outside.  We can reach up there and feel the open end of the liner.  There was a huge ball of insulation on the inside of the clean out door (the guys who installed the liner put it there to slow down air leakage I guess).  I used multiple layers of foil to create a cover for the ball of insulation.  Then we stuffed it up onto the liner, making sure we had plenty of material on the outside so it wouldn't get sucked up into the chimney (we also wired it so it can't go up).  Basically, the foil ball is about the same size as the chimney but is sitting at the bottom of the liner, sort of like a vacuum cleaner hose sucking up a small football.


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## redhorse (Feb 23, 2011)

trump said:
			
		

> Hindsight is 20-20 but i think i may have been close with one of my last observations which was
> 
> "Im wondering if you have adequate draft until you close the bypass and then you chimney starts pulling from a path of less resistance via your open cleanout."
> 
> ...



Adequate draft was certainly the general consensus...   But since the tech had come and measured the draft (with the bypass closed) and the meter read 0.06 (and Harman says 0.03 minimum), makes one wonder if Harman should change that minimum...


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## DanCorcoran (Feb 23, 2011)

Was he measuring the draft in the stove or in the flue?  If it was in the flue, then the draft may have been coming up from the cleanout and not through the stove.  (I don't have a bypass or a cleanout, so I can't really picture the different air flow paths).


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## branchburner (Feb 23, 2011)

redhorse said:
			
		

> OK, we fashioned a terminal cap for the bottom of the liner. We used aluminum foil with insulation inside and then fashioned a "bubble" (actually looks a lot like a flapper on a toilet), stuffed it up inside and pinched it as well as we could all around the bottom of the liner. We did wire it down just to make sure it didn't sucked up the liner, but it's larger and heavier so should not be an issue. Started a fire and simply could not believe the difference.  In about an hour, had it in AB. It's throwing heat like we've never seen before.



Nice fix, congrats!

One thing I've learned here, 99.9% of the time a new-stove performance problem lies with the flue (or the wood, or the stove location, or user inexperience) and not with the stove itself. You gotta play the odds.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 23, 2011)

Its hard to believe that much air leaked in around your cleanout door ,most likely some of the air came from around the liner then got sucked down into the open bottom of the liner. Anyway now that your warm and cozy we want to hear about your experiences with the stove since the bad draft days are over.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 23, 2011)

redhorse said:
			
		

> trump said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



THats was the confusing part cuz .06 is plenty of draft.But in reality your stove was getting no where near .06 continuously.  If the draft  could be measured after you closed your bypass door JUST above the stove ,it probably fell off to less than .03  at that point as the chimney started drawing air from around the liner.


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## branchburner (Feb 23, 2011)

trump said:
			
		

> most likely some of the air came from around the liner then got sucked down into the open bottom of the liner



Right, that would happen without a sealed top plate.


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## redhorse (Feb 24, 2011)

trump said:
			
		

> Its hard to believe that much air leaked in around your cleanout door ,most likely some of the air came from around the liner then got sucked down into the open bottom of the liner. Anyway now that your warm and cozy we want to hear about your experiences with the stove since the bad draft days are over.



So far we really like it.  It goes into AB very quickly and it's easy to tell when it's in.  I loaded it at 9am this morning at at 7pm it was still 400 degrees and keeping the house toasty.  I'm still playing with the blower, trying to figure out when it will stall the AB and when it won't.  

I'm sure air was coming down the chimney and into the bottom of the liner; we had the clean out door sealed (several layers of aluminum foil and duct tape).  I can feel a pretty good sized space between the liner and the chimney proper, so plenty of room for air to be pulled down.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 24, 2011)

Im glad its workin good,your poor stove was provably feeling unloved and unappreciated. FIred up my new Englander 30 for the first time today,very different stove in many ways but for the price $669 i think worth every penny. The Tl-300 is still worth what i paid as well and i like the fact that it stands tall The ENg 30 squats low to the floor and if you like to watch the fire like i do ,you have to practically lay on the floor. . ALso you will appreciate the fact that you can load it tight right up to the load door. ENg 30 is a front door only loader and you cant load the box more than half way up. BUt throws a lot of heat like the harman but im sure i wont get the burn times as with the harman. One thing i can say for the Eng is the door glass stays spotless. The harman can get soot in certain air settings.


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## redhorse (Feb 24, 2011)

Trump,

What kind of burn times are you getting with the Englander?


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 24, 2011)

I dont expect to get the 15 hour burn time as with the Harman,as you can only load the firebox up about half way. Plus you really appreciate that top load feature when you have only a front door to load through With the harman you can load it tight to the load door. Ill probably have to make a new fire everyday as im burning mostly pine but at least i dont have to feed it all day as i do with my barrel stoves and the home made oil tank stove.
Yesterday was first time to burn so still experimenting, if i find hot coals when i go there today ill be surprised.


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