# natural gas powered trucks



## stockdoct (Apr 3, 2009)

I thought this article was interesting, and wanted to share

http://evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1660


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## stockdoct (Apr 4, 2009)

And here's another

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008691112_naturalgas31m.html


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## stockdoct (Apr 4, 2009)

And UPS trucks too ......


http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/04/ups-cng-trucks.php


This is why I'm learning to burn wood.  I can't help but think the demand (and the cost) for natural gas is going to go up.

                      Mike


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## rowerwet (Apr 5, 2009)

I think propane or NG cars would make a lot more sense than hydrogen, but it seems our taxes are getting spent on hydrogen instead. how hard would it be to have every town or city that has a gas main system to have refueling stations? Rochester, NH has a city gas system that is supplied by rail, during the winter they pull 25 or so 100,000 gal cars into the unloading station every weekday. Eastern propane runs its fleet of trucks on propane also. 
of course in my perfect world, you would buy, lease, or own your cars powerplant, the rear end of the car would bolt on and contain the engine or motor, and the batteries/fuel tank. I could have an electric drive for my wifes minivan most of the time that I would own, and put a diesel on for long trips. I could own a diesel drive for my car but have the option of gas, propane, LNG, electric, hybrid, fuel cell, or whatever the next power plant of the future would be. The connection would be standardized for small, medium, large, and trucks so a ford could accept a dodge or toyota power plant and the power plant would also have the rear axle due to the different rear end gearing needed. You would also have players in the market who didn't make cars, just the power plants, allowing even more diversity and competition.


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## Hansson (Apr 5, 2009)

Many busses here drive on NG. Works fine


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## Redox (Jun 3, 2009)

NG is $1.32 a gallon equivalent right now, but beginning to head up some.  Gasoline is going for $2.40.  For the record...

Chris


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## flyingcow (Jun 4, 2009)

Gas $2.59 and climbing


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## peakbagger (Jun 4, 2009)

There was some work several years ago on high performance vehicles that were designed to run on natural gas rather than just a conversion of a gasoline engine. The advantage to going with a strictly natural gas fuel is that the compression ratio can be a lot higher, which increases engine efficency and horsepower. Most of the natural gas vehicles on the road are dual fuel or are just a conversion on the fuel system of a gasoline engine so the benefits for compression ratio are typically lost. There probably would a benefit on turbo engines that vary boost dependent upon knock sensors.  The shorter range and lack of local NG compressor stations has slowed down any movement to these types of vehicles and the recent bankrupcy of the largest supplier of home compressor stations probably isnt helping. 

Its interesting that most natural gas is shipped in high pressure pipe lines, which then are dropped in pressure for local distribution (which requires natural gas to heat the gas), where it would then have to be recompressed back to high pressure for vehicle use.


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## mbcijim (Jun 4, 2009)

"Even conservative estimates suggest the Louisiana discovery -- known as the Haynesville Shale, for the dense rock formation that contains the gas -- could hold some 200 trillion cubic feet of natural gas. That's the equivalent of 33 billion barrels of oil, or 18 years' worth of current U.S. oil production. Some industry executives think the field could be several times that size."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124104549891270585.html

"Huge new fields also have been found in Texas, Arkansas and Pennsylvania. One industry-backed study estimates the U.S. has more than 2,200 trillion cubic feet of gas waiting to be pumped, enough to satisfy nearly 100 years of current U.S. natural-gas demand."


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## rowerwet (Jun 4, 2009)

last summer there was research into converting diesel engines to run on NG, I don't know off the top of my head if the compression ratios are similar but according to a guest on coast to coast AM it is workable with some software and hardware changes. (consider the source) He is the guest who is on quite often to talk about how easy it would be to just change over to ethanol if those greedy oil companies wouldn't stop blocking it (sort of pie in the sky), I did find his idea that grain (and other farm produce) alochol was about to take on oil head to head but Rockefeller helped set up prohibition to ensure oil didn't have the competition.


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## Later (Jun 4, 2009)

Not going to happen until the gvt can guarantee that road taxes can be charged for every drop of fuel. That's why the Honda GX isn't selling now, you can fill it at home!


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## flyingcow (Jun 5, 2009)

rowerwet said:
			
		

> last summer there was research into converting diesel engines to run on NG, I don't know off the top of my head if the compression ratios are similar but according to a guest on coast to coast AM it is workable with some software and hardware changes. (consider the source) He is the guest who is on quite often to talk about how easy it would be to just change over to ethanol if those greedy oil companies wouldn't stop blocking it (sort of pie in the sky), I did find his idea that grain (and other farm produce) alochol was about to take on oil head to head but Rockefeller helped set up prohibition to ensure oil didn't have the competition.



cost of corn based ethanol is too high to be competitive. There isn't enough acreage to supply fuel for us, (plus just costs too much.) Not realistic anyways. NG has possibilities more than anything to help us off the oil based vehicles.


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## Redox (Jun 5, 2009)

Retired Guy said:
			
		

> Not going to happen until the gvt can guarantee that road taxes can be charged for every drop of fuel. That's why the Honda GX isn't selling now, you can fill it at home!



The GX isn't selling for a lot of reasons, but lost tax revenue isn't one of them.  A proper home refueling setup will have the pump metered separately and taxed accordingly.  The biggest problem is there is only one company making a vehicle refueling appliance, and the rumor is they are going bankrupt.

Chris


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## d.n.f. (Jun 5, 2009)

Westport WPRT (WPT.to) is the major player here.  They have a deal with Cummins.

The tech will probably not ever convert to cars.  Tanks are huge and filling stations are a problem unless you are running a fleet (UPS ex).

Natty gas is too freaking cheap.  I wish I was running my car on it.


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## burntime (Jun 7, 2009)

But to store enough Nat gas to get anywhere takes the whole bed of a friggin truck!


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## rowerwet (Jun 7, 2009)

back in the early 1900's one in ten people didn't work on a farm, farmers all produce waste crops and even on good crops there is waste husk, stem etc. even fruit can produce ethanol when fermented. Today one in ten people is a farm worker, our farms are the most productive in the world, our govt. dumps grain into the ocean to prop up prices, and our govt. pays farmers to not grow crops (jimmy carter). Corn based ethanol is just another farm subsidy to buy off the farmers in the Iowa caucus, there are much better crops and plants (switch grass, hemp, etc.) that could produce ethanol (especialy ones that grow as weeds), but until we realy need this technology there isn't much use in doing it. IF prohibition hadn't impossed limits on the amount of alcohol that a person could produce in a year, small farms might have survived by producing ethanol off of all the produce that didn't sell. The model T had a wide adjustment on the spark timing (from the drivers seat) to allow ethanol to be used as well as gasoline. Back then gas came in 5 gal cans from the hardware store if you could find it.
So once again you can thank a powerfull centralized govt. for stopping innovation and creativity, just like it is today. Why don't we have NG powered cars? why don't we have the next generation of nuke plants under construction now? Why don't we have 70 mpg diesels like Europe? Why is healthcare ridiculously expensive? Thanks to the govt. sticking its nose into all those unconstitutional areas (defense, trade, and promoting transportation are its only jobs) we don't have our states solving these problems and showing the others how it is done.


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## Redox (Jun 7, 2009)

Here's my next car:

http://www.naturaldrive.com/component/option,com_frontpage/Itemid,1/

It DOES have a trunk, meets EPA and has a $2500 Socialist gubmint tax credit.

Developed by a private, non gubmint funded company driven by market demand.

CNG is $0.859 a GGE in Utah right now....

"Picture taken at Flying J truck stop in Springville, Utah on August 14, 2008."


Chris


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## rowerwet (Jun 7, 2009)

interesting that the NG and propane prices are so different in that picture unless the propane price is to fill a 20lb bottle, not clear from the signage.


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## fabguy01 (Jun 7, 2009)

rowerwet said:
			
		

> back in the early 1900's one in ten people didn't work on a farm, farmers all produce waste crops and even on good crops there is waste husk, stem etc. even fruit can produce ethanol when fermented. Today one in ten people is a farm worker, our farms are the most productive in the world, our govt. dumps grain into the ocean to prop up prices, and our govt. pays farmers to not grow crops (jimmy carter). Corn based ethanol is just another farm subsidy to buy off the farmers in the Iowa caucus, there are much better crops and plants (switch grass, hemp, etc.) that could produce ethanol (especialy ones that grow as weeds), but until we realy need this technology there isn't much use in doing it. IF prohibition hadn't impossed limits on the amount of alcohol that a person could produce in a year, small farms might have survived by producing ethanol off of all the produce that didn't sell. The model T had a wide adjustment on the spark timing (from the drivers seat) to allow ethanol to be used as well as gasoline. Back then gas came in 5 gal cans from the hardware store if you could find it.
> So once again you can thank a powerfull centralized govt. for stopping innovation and creativity, just like it is today. Why don't we have NG powered cars? why don't we have the next generation of nuke plants under construction now? Why don't we have 70 mpg diesels like Europe? Why is healthcare ridiculously expensive? Thanks to the govt. sticking its nose into all those unconstitutional areas (defense, trade, and promoting transportation are its only jobs) we don't have our states solving these problems and showing the others how it is done.


 This guy says it best :coolsmirk:


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