# Too much waste



## begreen (Jun 16, 2015)

This is somewhat sobering. 40% of our produce never makes it to our houses. This just isn't right. There is so much waste in the system that could feed the poor or at least not be grown so as to reduce our impact on the planet. 
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/tons-fresh-produce-dumped-landfills-every-day/


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## jeffesonm (Jun 16, 2015)

I've been trying to buy tasty stuff nearby since there are so many farms.


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## begreen (Jun 16, 2015)

That is a win for the farmer and for you. You get tasty food with much less waste and there are no middlemen.


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## Knots (Jun 18, 2015)

Pigs.  At the very least it should get fed to pigs, not put in a landfill.


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## Adios Pantalones (Jun 18, 2015)

A lot of landfills now have composting facilities, but as soon as they put it in plastic bags, they won't go back and separate the trash. Automating that would be a feat 

Local small scale producers will generate less waste produce, but they are also less efficient at producing- so you throw out produce, or you use more resources in production


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## begreen (Jun 18, 2015)

There are several brands of compostable trash bags now on the market. But the grocery store level is usually handled by the dumpter load. But first it should be culled for food banks, church free meals, homeless shelters, etc.. Give the decent food away before composting it.


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## Whitepine2 (Jun 18, 2015)

begreen said:


> There are several brands of compostable trash bags now on the market. But the grocery store level is usually handled by the dumpter load. But first it should be culled for food banks, church free meals, homeless shelters, etc.. Give the decent food away before composting it.



 You can't always give to homeless,wife worked for airlines as FA and gave to homeless until
the scum-bag lawyers put a stop to it liability someone might get ill and lawyers step in,so
everything gets dumped what a shame. I hate most lawyers!


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## Ashful (Jun 18, 2015)

Whitepine2 said:


> You can't always give to homeless,wife worked for airlines as FA and gave to homeless until
> the scum-bag lawyers put a stop to it liability someone might get ill and lawyers step in,so everything gets dumped what a shame. I hate most lawyers!


Hating lawyers is like hating guns.  They don't shoot themselves, and lawyers are most often just hired hands.


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## Whitepine2 (Jun 18, 2015)

Ashful said:


> Hating lawyers is like hating guns.  They don't shoot themselves, and lawyers are most often just hired hands.



 I didn't say all lawyers just most. I delt with them for 33 years in law enforcement the last 15
as court officer,only a handful were real lawyers some are real snakes then they become
judges not what you know but who.


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## sportbikerider78 (Jun 19, 2015)

Ashful said:


> Hating lawyers is like hating guns.  They don't shoot themselves, and lawyers are most often just hired hands.


Do you mean because guns are tools and so are lawyers?


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## Ashful (Jun 19, 2015)

sportbikerider78 said:


> Do you mean because guns are tools and so are lawyers?


I started with typing those exact words.


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## begreen (Jun 19, 2015)

Back on topic - There are large scale organizations that gather perfectly good food that might otherwise go to a landfill and see that it gets to those in need. Many of these organizations are local and can use support.

http://www.wastedfood.com/food-rescue/
http://www.cityharvest.org/about
http://www.endfoodwastenow.org/index.php/issues/issues-restaurants


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## Rossco (Jun 20, 2015)

It's not just about wasted food thou. It every aspect of waste Managment that needs a revision. 

Back in the UK they have land fill tax. £80 a ton or $126US a ton or $155CAD  a ton. 

Apply and watch what happens down the line.


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## Knots (Jun 20, 2015)

Unfortunately, around here, as the cost of getting rid of things increases, the frequency of people throwing things out by the side of the road does too.


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## Ashful (Jun 20, 2015)

Good point, Knots.  Folks set their "we should" perspective, based on their local situation.  Unfortunately, good urban solutions become rural problems, and vice versa.


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## BrotherBart (Jun 20, 2015)

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/boston-...-discounted-healthy-food-low-income-families/


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## begreen (Jun 20, 2015)

It is very unlikely that farmers and grocers are going to start tossing their waste on rural streets. That is what the report is about. We all can reduce waste by being a bit more mindful. About 75% of what goes to the landfill doesn't need to. Locally we are working in partnership with the county to start addressing this issue. This is a grassroots effort in the beginning stages and from the bottom up but it is starting to bear fruit.

Folks dumping trash in local ravines is common, sadly. This was true locally even when going to the local dump was for free. Some people are just lazy and incredibly, obtusely disrespectful. I love it when they find a clear ID in this illegal dumping and have the person haul it out.

In the US manufacturers pass the burden of dealing with waste to the taxpayer. Europe has addressed this and has incorporated cradle-to-grave responsibility mandates for manufactured products. It is their responsibility as a company to ensure that what they make is ultimately entirely recyclable.


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## Ashful (Jun 20, 2015)

begreen said:


> In the US manufacturers pass the burden of dealing with waste to the taxpayer. Europe has addressed this and has incorporated cradle-to-grave responsibility mandates for manufactured products. It is their responsibility as a company to ensure that what they make is ultimately entirely recyclable.


I was living in Germany in the 1990's, when these laws were passed.  A noble idea, but it ain't helping their economy.  In any case, call me a taxpayer or a customer... still the same guy paying.


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## begreen (Jun 20, 2015)

That is a much more complex subject. Germany's economy has been pretty strong in spite of the drag of poorer EU nations. More importantly Germans in general feel pretty good about the changes brought about by the Toepfer decree and as a nation they are learning and growing from it. At least they are doing something! In the meantime we are stuck somewhere between Ozzie and Harriet and Mark Hanna.
http://digitalcommons.law.villanova.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1230&context=elj


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## Grisu (Jun 21, 2015)

Ashful said:


> A noble idea, but it ain't helping their economy.



How come? As a country that imports pretty much all of its oil for example, less plastic wrapping is a good thing.


Ashful said:


> In any case, call me a taxpayer or a customer... still the same guy paying.



True, the problem is that when buying a product most people don't add to the price how much it will cost to discard it. With the German "green point" system you see those cost right upfront so you can change your purchasing habits accordingly.


begreen said:


> Germany's economy has been pretty strong in spite of the drag of poorer EU nations.



Not really "despite any (supposed) drag". Because Germany's economy is so strong but its (real) wages and investment are so low many other European countries are doing so poorly. Or rather, because they have been framed by Merkel, IMF, and co as irresponsible slouches and pushed into asinine austerity.


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## Ashful (Jun 21, 2015)

Grisu said:


> True, the problem is that when buying a product most people don't add to the price how much it will cost to discard it. With the German "green point" system you see those cost right upfront so you can change your purchasing habits accordingly.


Can't believe I'm going to agree with you, Grisu, but this is a good point.

Happy Fathers Day, everyone!


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## sportbikerider78 (Jun 22, 2015)

begreen said:


> It is very unlikely that farmers and grocers are going to start tossing their waste on rural streets. That is what the report is about. We all can reduce waste by being a bit more mindful. About 75% of what goes to the landfill doesn't need to. Locally we are working in partnership with the county to start addressing this issue. This is a grassroots effort in the beginning stages and from the bottom up but it is starting to bear fruit.
> 
> Folks dumping trash in local ravines is common, sadly. This was true locally even when going to the local dump was for free. Some people are just lazy and incredibly, obtusely disrespectful. I love it when they find a clear ID in this illegal dumping and have the person haul it out.
> 
> In the US manufacturers pass the burden of dealing with waste to the taxpayer. Europe has addressed this and has incorporated cradle-to-grave responsibility mandates for manufactured products. It is their responsibility as a company to ensure that what they make is ultimately entirely recyclable.


It all ends up as a higher cost to the purchaser.  Who else would pay for it?  There is no one else.

Rarely, is the solution, just tax more or to over-regulate.   What incentive does a town or city have to find better methods of recycling or waste management?


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## begreen (Jun 22, 2015)

Actually not always so. Cars did not go up dramatically in price when these mandates were instituted in Europe. Food didn't go up dramatically either with the changes in packaging. Smart societies recognize that there is tremendous value in waste. Recycling alone can make a dramatic impact. Seattle leads the nation in recycling and it has not raised the cost of goods here. But it has allowed waste from Seattle to be reduced dramatically which decreases millions of trucking miles, fuel, labor and landfill costs. Organic waste has higher value as fuel and fertilizer.

This is a large topic but here is an example of what typically is tossed out in the garbage.




If we are wise about our waste if may actually save money and create jobs. Take NYC which has to truck and barge it's 24 million tons of garbage daily as far away as Virginia and South Carolina. This is a huge and costly problem.


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## sportbikerider78 (Jun 23, 2015)

I think you would find that NYC (just like the rest of NY) already has big recycling programs.  I already separate glass, metal, junk and cardboard, which is a great percentage of what you have in your diagram and I live out in the country.  We have bottle deposits and you really don't see people throwing trash around.  It is pretty clean in comparson to much of the country.  

I'm very surprised, we have not see companies spring up that will either pickup for free, or pay to pick up plastic and cardboard stock.  It has fuel value and can be burned for electricity.  

I would like to see many of these operations privatized too see what unique processes are developed w/o the cities involved.


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## kennyp2339 (Jun 24, 2015)

sportbikerider78 said:


> I think you would find that NYC (just like the rest of NY) already has big recycling programs.  I already separate glass, metal, junk and cardboard, which is a great percentage of what you have in your diagram and I live out in the country.  We have bottle deposits and you really don't see people throwing trash around.  It is pretty clean in comparson to much of the country.
> 
> I'm very surprised, we have not see companies spring up that will either pickup for free, or pay to pick up plastic and cardboard stock.  It has fuel value and can be burned for electricity.
> 
> I would like to see many of these operations privatized too see what unique processes are developed w/o the cities involved.



You mean like out west, My sister lives near Seattle and they do free recycling pick up, the only thing is once you start the program you have to separate your trash no matter what, its pretty strict, if you get caught throwing recyclables away in the trash you can get a surcharge.


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## begreen (Jun 24, 2015)

Seattle has one of the best recycling programs in the country. They've been refining and expanding it for 30 yrs. Now they pickup separated yard and food waste too.


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## Bret Chase (Jul 18, 2015)

kennyp2339 said:


> You mean like out west, My sister lives near Seattle and they do free recycling pick up, the only thing is once you start the program you have to separate your trash no matter what, its pretty strict, if you get caught throwing recyclables away in the trash you can get a surcharge.



We don't sort anything here... the town contracts with a single stream recycler.... EVERYTHING (well besides obvious compostables like lawn waste and brush) goes through industrial scale sorting...

In my house, most paper products are saved for lighting the wood stove... and most food wastes go to the chickens... the rest goes into the recycling stream.


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## begreen (Jul 18, 2015)

Same in Seattle and now King County. That level of recycling is becoming more prevalent as the equipment to do the sorting comes online.


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## Ashful (Jul 19, 2015)

Same here.  We get two 96 gal rolling cans.  One is all recyclables, other is trash. Unfortunately, they keep changing rules on what is recyclable, and put zero effort into notifying public.  So, anything debatable goes in recycling, for them to sort out.


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## Grisu (Jul 19, 2015)

Ashful said:


> Unfortunately, they keep changing rules on what is recyclable, and put zero effort into notifying public.



We get a booklet every year with the different categories trash can fall into and how to properly discard each one. Of course, there is an occasional odd one that is unclear. (Like a broken handmixer we had recently.) The recycling has not changed much here for years but food waste will soon be collected separately. I am curious how they will implement that one. 


Ashful said:


> So, anything debatable goes in recycling, for them to sort out.



We do the same although I am pretty sure if we cannot identify whether something is really recyclable the workers will not spend any time on it and just chuck it. At least we remove the lids before dropping bottles in the recycle bin; many people don't.


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## begreen (Jul 19, 2015)

Ashful said:


> Same here.  We get two 96 gal rolling cans.  One is all recyclables, other is trash. Unfortunately, they keep changing rules on what is recyclable, and put zero effort into notifying public.  So, anything debatable goes in recycling, for them to sort out.


Google is your friend. 
http://www.philadelphiastreets.com/recycling/how-to-recycle


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## Ashful (Jul 19, 2015)

begreen said:


> Google is your friend.
> http://www.philadelphiastreets.com/recycling/how-to-recycle


I list Philadelphia, not because I'm in Philadelphia proper, but because no one mor than 20 miles from my home has ever heard of "Upper Salford".  [emoji3]


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## Jags (Jul 20, 2015)

I would like to point out one issue that can play into the food supply and waste that hasn't been mentioned.  I am using a food/non-food product as a simple example:

Wheat - wheat harvest...no brainer.  Now - the straw.  Everybody knows that cows, horses, etc. use straw as bedding.  What many don't consider is the value of the straw when left in place, to go back to the farm ground.  Every bale of straw has a "worth" in the replacement value of the nutrients that are being removed from the farm ground.  This "can" be the same reason that unsold apples will be allowed to rot and hit the ground, or asparagus left unharvested, etc.

Just pointing out that sometimes the food cycle isn't always as simple as harvest - sell - or dump.  If there is a glut in straw with low pricing it may actually be a better business decision to leave the straw where it lay.  Not always the case, but just showing another side of the food cycle that the farmers have to take into consideration.  Putting a "free" sign on those bales of straw or giving those unsold apples to needy does actually have a cost associated.


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## Adios Pantalones (Jul 20, 2015)

Jags said:


> I would like to point out one issue that can play into the food supply and waste that hasn't been mentioned.  I am using a food/non-food product as a simple example:
> 
> Wheat - wheat harvest...no brainer.  Now - the straw.  Everybody knows that cows, horses, etc. use straw as bedding.  What many don't consider is the value of the straw when left in place, to go back to the farm ground.  Every bale of straw has a "worth" in the replacement value of the nutrients that are being removed from the farm ground.  This "can" be the same reason that unsold apples will be allowed to rot and hit the ground, or asparagus left unharvested, etc.
> 
> Just pointing out that sometimes the food cycle isn't always as simple as harvest - sell - or dump.  If there is a glut in straw with low pricing it may actually be a better business decision to leave the straw where it lay.  Not always the case, but just showing another side of the food cycle that the farmers have to take into consideration.  Putting a "free" sign on those bales of straw or giving those unsold apples to needy does actually have a cost associated.


Absolutely. Straw, in fact, has most of the exact nutrients necessary to grow (wait for it) straw. The same goes for wood left in the forest. I have seen arguments about it being so wasteful to let trees rot, but in addition to making the soil better, it's a crazy habitat enhancer.

Now, on the topic, much of the food waste is in plastic bags, sent to a landfill- it would be better left in the field, but overproduction is meant to ensure that there's enough...


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## Cynnergy (Jul 21, 2015)

Ashful said:


> So, anything debatable goes in recycling, for them to sort out.



I used to work in local government, admittedly in the UK, but I think this principle applies everywhere - if you don't know, put it in the garbage or call and ask!  What happens with ours was that a certain amount of 'contamination' was allowed at the sorting plant (IIRC <5% but it was a while ago now...) and anything more than that can cause a whole truckload to be rejected.  Oh, and increased fees for the local government if it was a regular occurrence.  

We now have an 'environmental recycling fee' added onto most electronics here - I think that is a British Columbia thing.  I kind of like it because we have great recycling for electronics now (including small kitchen appliances such as hand mixers), and the fee is pretty minimal (paid on purchase) but the European model would be better.  'Planned obsolescence' of things like toasters and coffee makers drives me bonkers and should be discouraged at a higher level.  I once got into a 'debate' with an older gentleman who was hassling the clerk at Staples about the recycling fee - he said he would give his new printer to a friend when he didn't want it anymore - but what about when the friend wanted to get rid of it I asked him?  Or if it broke?  That quieted him up pretty quick.


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## billb3 (Jul 22, 2015)

We have pay-to-throw (landfill garbage still goes in a small bag) which provides a monetary incentive ( one or two dollars a bag depending on size ) to recycle at maximum rates ( it has proven to work very well ).
Yard waste and compostables go in paper bags not in the trash bag.
No one compares to San Fransisco, Portland and LA supposedly  though:http://grist.org/cities/why-seattle-still-has-a-huge-garbage-problem/


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## drz1050 (Jul 22, 2015)

Want to be disgusted by the amount of food being wasted? Go work in a restaurant for a while... 

I also have 2 large trash cans, one for single stream recycling, one for general trash... I usually put them out every other week, and they're rarely more than half full then. Some of my neighbors fill theirs up to the brim every week. Even if you are recycling, that's no good. 

Stop drinking bottled water. I still don't understand how that ever got so popular in the first place... seems like it didn't really exist except for needs (camping and whatnot), then exploded in the late 90s.


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## billb3 (Jul 22, 2015)

Bottled water is as convenient as a jello cup or a disposable diaper.

If you live somewhere that the tap water smells like a public swimming pool that reeks of chloramines  or where Pathogen Boil Water Advisaries are constantly mandated bottled water is indispensable.

No jello cups or Depends here but even though it is often not recommended we refill the convenient bottled water we get elsewhere with our own fairly nice tap water.


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## firefighterjake (Jul 22, 2015)

I rarely buy bottled water . . . that said . . . I bought some this past weekend as I had forgotten to pack some water for a bike ride. My fault.


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## Adios Pantalones (Jul 22, 2015)

Ever see the Dirty Jobs episode where he goes to the place near Las Vegas feeding pigs leftovers from casinos/hotels? A good program, but it really does show crazy waste


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## begreen (Jul 22, 2015)

billb3 said:


> Bottled water is as convenient as a jello cup or a disposable diaper.
> 
> If you live somewhere that the tap water smells like a public swimming pool that reeks of chloramines  or where Pathogen Boil Water Advisaries are constantly mandated bottled water is indispensable.
> 
> No jello cups or Depends here but even though it is often not recommended we refill the convenient bottled water we get elsewhere with our own fairly nice tap water.


Often bottled water is city water run through a filter. If the tap water is not great, a good activated charcoal water filter will clear up that chlorine smell. Add a filter to the faucet or a counter top water filter jug.

Keurig cups are another disposable we can do without. Our coffee maker is a Bodum press pot. No filters to replace.


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## begreen (Jul 22, 2015)

Here's a program to reduce food waste that really works. It is a home kit you do for a month. Our county is one of the local sponsors. On average homes are finding about a 25% reduction in food waste which can add up nicely on the bottom line of the grocery bill. 
http://westcoastclimateforum.com/food


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## Grisu (Jul 22, 2015)

The one thing that will not be going on forever with our current way of food production is the loss of nutrients that is happening on our farmlands. Every time food is shipped over hundreds or thousands of miles that land just lost a part of the soil nutrients the plants need to grow. Some of it comes back through air (CO2) and water but anything that is dumped in a landfill (before or after digestion) is essentially lost. Currently, we make up for that loss artificially with fertilizer but those deposits have also natural limits. I am sure there will be a generation that will regret our decision to dump valuable nutrients together with harmful or even toxic wastes in one giant hole while trying to grow their food on depleted farmland.


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## Bret Chase (Jul 22, 2015)

begreen said:


> Often bottled water is city water run through a filter. If the tap water is not great, a good activated charcoal water filter will clear up that chlorine smell. Add a filter to the faucet or a counter top water filter jug.
> 
> Keurig cups are another disposable we can do without. Our coffee maker is a Bodum press pot. No filters to replace.


 
back when I lived in Worcester, MA in the early 90's... city water had a green tinge... and smelled of diesel.. no lie... nobody drank it.

I have a permanent filter for my coffee pot.... I never use it, because it sucks, and always let "the fines" through into my coffee.. I'll use a paper filter... til somebody comes up with something better.. that actually works.


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## TonyVideo (Aug 17, 2015)

I put an R/O filter in my sink. Same as bottled water in some cases. For carry convenience I use washable sealable cups.


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## Ashful (Aug 17, 2015)

I moved to the country, and have a well.  Get it tested every 5 years, and all looks good.  Doesn't always work for everyone, as I know some have found naturally occurring arsenic in their well water, but I'll take those odds against city borough water.


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## dougstove (Aug 17, 2015)

Peak phosphate is coming. There are limited stocks of mineable rock phosphate.
We are taking the phosphate from the soil and peeing it into the oceans, where it is nearly infinitely diluted.
We need to get smarter with closing our nutrient loops.


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## Ashful (Aug 17, 2015)

dougstove said:


> Peak phosphate is coming.


There's always something new to worry about.


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