# Tractor for towing



## Black Jaque Janaviac (Nov 2, 2011)

I've got a 5x10 trailer which rides on a single 3500# axle.  How small can I go with a lawn tractor that would still be capable of towing it (3500#)?


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## Badfish740 (Nov 2, 2011)

Black Jaque Janaviac said:
			
		

> I've got a 5x10 trailer which rides on a single 3500# axle.  How small can I go with a lawn tractor that would still be capable of towing it (3500#)?



Are we talking flat ground?  Slight grades, etc...?  I don't think power is the limiting factor so much as weight.  The gearing in the little buggers is pretty stout so 12 HP or so can pull a lot-traction on the other hand is another thing.  Over at one of the Deere fanatic sites there are guys who run chevron treads on the rear, fill the tires with windshield washer fluid, and add wheel weights to top it all off.  Personally?  I'd look for something with at least 10 or 12 HP.


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## Danno77 (Nov 2, 2011)

You looking for new or used?


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## MasterMech (Nov 2, 2011)

Depends on the transmission.  HP has little to do with it.  A JD 210 with a 10HP Kohler will out-tow a modern 20+ HP lawn tractor by far.  Most "Garden tractors" have a beefier transmission than a "lawn tractor" would have.  3500lbs is a tall order for any lawn/garden tractor.  The problem is stopping. There's a very scary problem with the physics of a 500lb tractor using two wheels (no brakes on the front remember?) to stop a 3500lb load unless the terrain is level, and the traction is excellent.

New, only Deere makes tractors I would want towing this kind of weight.  Look at the X700 series. OK there may be other smaller manufacturers out there with something but I can't come up with any that are "garden" tractors.
(Sticker shock disclaimer: these are $10,000 machines)

Used, Deere 300 series, like a 316, 317, 318, 320/322/332 (Big $$ in good shape) or 400 series ie. 420, 425, 445, 455.  Big Wheel Horse tractors might do it but I'm not as familiar with them or the older Cub Cadets.

Even with the above machines your going to need serious wheel weights, tire ballast, front suitcase weights to hold it down, etc.

Anything Sears, Husqvarna, MTD and the like have built in the last 30 years isn't going to work.

Most garden tractors are not rated for 3500lbs.  Even a JD TH 6x4 Diesel Gator is rated to tow 1400lbs (highest of their UTV's).  You could pull the trailer with 'em but I wouldn't go right to the trailers 3500# capacity and certainly not with a single axle trailer.  A tandem would help reduce the tongue weight quite a bit.

Bottom line: A lawn tractor just ain't going to do it.


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## gzecc (Nov 2, 2011)

I agree with MasterMech. I have a JD 420 and would not think about pulling 3500 lbs with it. I have pulled my 2500lb enclosed trailer in the driveway a few times. Its kind of scary. I would pull 1000 lbs with it, I guess because it also weighs 1000lbs.
How much money are you expecting to pay for a tractor? What else do you expect to do with it?


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## Danno77 (Nov 3, 2011)

Definitely x700 series. It ain't my money! Those are fancy. I'd love to own one


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## SolarAndWood (Nov 3, 2011)

You can get a lot of diesel tractor for the price of a lawn tractor that will pull that kind of trailer and still be able to mow your lawn with it.


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## tamarack (Nov 3, 2011)

I have a JD X585 (25hp) "garden tractor" and I pull in 3500# utility trailer around my property filled with split wood.  Its OK on mostly level ground, but I'd never try to tow a full 3500# with it.  The brakes probably would stop it if you were heading downhill.


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## MasterMech (Nov 3, 2011)

tamarack said:
			
		

> I have a JD X585 (25hp) "garden tractor" and I pull in 3500# utility trailer around my property filled with split wood.  Its OK on mostly level ground, but I'd never try to tow a full 3500# with it.  The brakes probably would stop it if you were heading downhill.



Nice thing is with the X585 and it's 4wd siblings you can put it in 4wd for 4 wheel braking instead of 2.


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## wkpoor (Nov 3, 2011)

Ya know for as little as a $1000.00 or less you can buy a nice antique tractor that would pull a 3500# trailer like its not even there. Why piss around with a garden tractor. Allis Chalmer Bs can be had 500-750 dollars and would make fantastic wood haulers.


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## tamarack (Nov 3, 2011)

Yeah - I took a trailer full of wood for a slide down some wet grass this year.  The heavy trailer pushed me down the hill like I was on ice.  I only stopped after almost jack-knifing, then the slope reduced.  The brakes were useless with that load pushing me around.  Not fun, but very EXCITING.


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## gzecc (Nov 3, 2011)

wkpoor said:
			
		

> Ya know for as little as a $1000.00 or less you can buy a nice antique tractor that would pull a 3500# trailer like its not even there. Why piss around with a garden tractor. Allis Chalmer Bs can be had 500-750 dollars and would make fantastic wood haulers.


I agree, a larger old tractor would do the job. The original poster asked "how small of a lawn tractor can he use".


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## Danno77 (Nov 3, 2011)

wkpoor said:
			
		

> Ya know for as little as a $1000.00 or less you can buy a nice antique tractor that would pull a 3500# trailer like its not even there. Why piss around with a garden tractor. Allis Chalmer Bs can be had 500-750 dollars and would make fantastic wood haulers.


I'm a John Deere fan thru and thru, but I've been looking for a good reason to buy an old 9n. I could live vicariously through the OP, so I'll have to agree with you on this one


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## TreePointer (Nov 3, 2011)

A friend filled his 2003 4x4 Chevy Silverado bed with less than a half cord of wood.  He had trouble making it up a moderate grade that had a little slick grass on it.  So, I wouldn't even use a garden tractor unless it had R1 (or close) tires, a good transmission, good brakes, a lot of weight.  Hmm, I think I just described the Allis Chalmers mentioned earlier!


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## pen (Nov 3, 2011)

2 years ago I watched my older neighbor in his glory as he was asked to move a piece of farm machinery up and over a greasy and hilly field for his son-in-law that he couldn't pull w/ his brand new 50 horse 4x4 kubota.  He used a 35 horse 2 wheel drive tractor to get the job done.  

I agree that HP isn't the defining feature.  For me it's weight.  W/ a heavy tractor and low HP (like the farmall 450 I use for hauling logs) I'll run out of power before the load ever can drag or push me anywhere.  I pull up and down some decent hills though.  On flat land, this is less of a deal but even a small hill w/ damp grass can make you hurt if that trailer gets the tractor pushing while going down hill, or slides you backwards while going up.  

If I say WHOA I want it to happen.  You need weight for that.  Going is great, but stopping is more important.

pen


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## SolarAndWood (Nov 3, 2011)

My 70s era 24 hp 2wd Kubota had no problem pulling the little dump trailer around even with fill in it.  With the chains on that thing and the diff lock, it was a tank pulling the trailer or pushing snow.


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## ewdudley (Nov 3, 2011)

gzecc said:
			
		

> I agree with MasterMech. I have a JD 420 and would not think about pulling 3500 lbs with it.



Well there's JD 420s and then there are JD 420s.  ;-)  To be fair IIRC it has four more HP than the later version.

What a pulling 420 may look like:


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## Shari (Nov 3, 2011)

Craftsman 15HP, hydro drive, rear tire weights, 4x6 trailer, basically level ground:


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## MasterMech (Nov 3, 2011)

ewdudley said:
			
		

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When your pistons rival Folgers' cans in diameter, pulling power is a given, lol.


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## gzecc (Nov 3, 2011)

ewdudley said:
			
		

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I was referring to a 420 GT.


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## gzecc (Nov 3, 2011)

As I was slowing down my 420GT this morning I realized how functional the hydrostatic trans is for slowing down heavy loads. If you are considering a buy, I think you should consider hydrostatic.


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## OhioBurner© (Nov 5, 2011)

When your talking about pulling 4-digits pounds lawn tractors are out and garden tractors are the minimum. Some use the terms interchangeably so I dont know if you meant that or not, but usually manufacturers built similar looking models but the 'garden' one were usually built with beefier drivetrain components vs their 'lawn' tractor counterparts. 

It will make a HUGE difference how you plan on using it. My $300 cub (with some added items) will pull my 6x10 (3500# axle) with ease around the yard. I'll throw some wood on it and the old 12hp cast iron kohler will tug it along at barely over idle. Introduce the slightest bit of slope and your in a whole different world. My yard does have some slope and I can still pull the same trailer up it but more along the lines of 1/2 to 3/4 throttle minimum. Go into the woods, wouldnt even attempt to pull it, too steep and rough to get traction plus clearance problems. The terrain at the farm is rough enough that a 12.5cu ft poly dump cart is a struggle, but this is mainly a traction limitation. I do have GBC Gator tires, filled with RV antifreeze and wheel weights.

One thing thats been said many times, its not how much you can pull, but how much you can stop. Things can get dangerous fast, especially on hills. One thing that would help is a good hydro transmission. I love gear drives but the brakes normally suck on old tractors. With a hydro you can use the hydro to slow down.

I'd love to have an old small farm tractor like an 8N, or a Farmall 100-300 etc etc, but good ones generally run 2 grand or so, and I dont have a trailer big enough to haul them, so I'd have to get a bigger trailer (another grand or two for used).  Tractor would take up more wood space, and the extra weight would probably suck some more fuel too for the 5hr round trip to the farm. I'd still like to get a bigger tractor just to have, for the local old time farm festival & parade, but with my small 2 acres and small gardens a big tractor wouldnt be of much use. My cubs are quite useful and they average around $300 for half way decent ones, at least around here. Many implements still can be found for em. 4WD ATV would be ideal, but again costly.

Another limiting factor with weight... keeping the front end of the tractor on the ground. My 6x10 trailer weighs about 1400# empty. I forget exactly, but somewhere between 2,000-2,500# is the limit with my 3pt with the ball hitch adapter, the front end will start bouncing off the ground. Not good if you want to steer. I plan on making some ballast weight for the front end. A hitch closer to the axle would probably allow more weight, mine puts some leverage on it for sure. This is largely dependent on the design of the trailer too and how its loaded, how much tongue weight it has.


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## kabbott (Nov 5, 2011)

Danno77 said:
			
		

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The old fords aint bad (8n,9n) but since I grew up running them I have to vote for
A Ferguson... A to20 is a nice little tractor. Dad still has a to20, to30 , and an f40.
Would love to find a to35 one day to complete the collection.

Or you could get a Steiner... http://www.steinerturf.com/430_max.asp dad has one
and I have run them for prolly 20 years now. definitely bad a$$ for there size, a little pricey though.


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## lukem (Nov 5, 2011)

kabbott said:
			
		

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My dad has a TO30.  It is a great tractor.  Enough weight and power to move some big logs for a pretty small package.


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## Danno77 (Nov 5, 2011)

A couple of years ago New Holland had a retro 8n called the "Boomer." It sure was a sweet looking tractor. I still have never seen one in real life. I need to google that to see if there are reviews on it.
Edit: link to one for sale (lots of pictures)
http://www.tractorhouse.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?ohid=5620443


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## OhioBurner© (Nov 6, 2011)

Didnt have my pics uploaded for my last post but got this one uploaded today. Not a pretty tractor but here is my 129 cub (1973) 12hp. pulling my 6x10 trailer 1400# empty weight 3500# axles. Not sure how much wood is on it, its pretty full and heaped but loosely. It'll pull this with the throttle barely over idle on flat ground. 

My Cub 1000 (with the better tires & weights) is down since summer waiting for me to put in a new clutch so my 129 has been doing everything this summer, from mowing the grass to tilling the garden and hauling firewood. That one cost me $325 off craigslist with the 44" deck, ran good, but I did get it running like a top after adjusting the points. I have added antifreeze in the tires and chains (also my snow plow / snow blower tractor), the IH 3pt lift with sleeve hitch adapter, helper spring, and lights (yeah, back then lights were an option, and most didnt come with them). The good tires are on my 1000, need to get another pair of V61 front tires to replace the balloons. I also have a parts 1450 cub that I plan on swapping out the hydro to get a hydro lift on my 129 to help with plowing and tilling.







There are far better tractors out there, but for the price these old cubs are great and very versatile IMO. I even plan on setting one of my 129's up just for logging, more on that to come maybe next year.


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## Danno77 (Nov 6, 2011)

Looks like somebody is trapped under the hood and trying to grab yer son, lol.


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## Black Jaque Janaviac (Nov 6, 2011)

Ohio,

That looks like what I was hoping might work.  A small-ish tractor capable of pulling the full #3500 trailer.  And about the right price.

I gather there is a difference between a garden tractor and a lawn tractor?  Which is the Cub 129?


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## OhioBurner© (Nov 6, 2011)

GT. The LT version had brigs instead of kohlers, right angle belt drive instead of a driveshaft, and weaker manual trans. Cosmetically they looked the same though. If you want to look into cubs more closely, check out this website http://www.ihcubcadet.com/ half way down you'll see a listing of every model number of IH built cub cadet GT's, and some quick info that defines the model. But basically the first numbers are the HP and the last number(s) are the series. Some dont follow that exactly. IH only built em until '81, after that was MTD/CCC, and many believe quality went downhill even though some of the later tractors were much larger like the SGT's. My interest is primarily on the actual IH built models.

Also realize that most never came with a ball hitch, so you'll have to fab or purchase something. One good place to go for custom machined cub parts & implements is http://www.xtrememotorworks.com/ (click on the 'cub cadet parts' in the middle) I have purchased several parts from him including my ball/pin combo hitch and beefier hitch brackets. Here is a pic of my hitch setup on my 1000:






You dont need the 3pt/sleeve hitch to just pull wagons around, and they are more rare to come by. The link I provided above has a few hitch options for relatively cheap that will bolt right on and give you both a hole for pin hitch and ball hitch. I went with the lifting sleeve hitch for things like plowing dirt and tilling. Its also nice to back up to a trailer, lower the hitch, back under it, and lift the hitch up right into it.

I've got mine all for pretty cheap but realize I had been watching caigslist daily for weeks or months to come across each of those deals. Normally the ones for a couple/few hundred are junkers that havent ran and sat out in a field for the last decade or two. Often for decent running ones folks want $500+ depending on if it includes anything else. Restored ones can go over a grand. But good deals do pop up around here frequently. Also I hope your a decent mechanic, they are pretty tough old machines but most anything this old is going to need wrenching from time to time. The nice thing about em is that you can somewhat easily wrench on em, and most parts can still be found. Dont discount other brands either, or small farm tractors. I try to not be biased, still looking for an old IH, Ford,or MF small farm tractor myself. But after I find a good thing I tend to stick with it. Nice thing about having multiple cubs is the attachment between mine all will interchange, rear ends & transmissions and aside from some minor differences even the motors. One goes down I can use another in the mean time, and steal parts from yet another...



			
				Danno77 said:
			
		

> Looks like somebody is trapped under the hood and trying to grab yer son, lol.


LOL Didnt realize my gloves made it into the picture. Yeah between loads I like to air em out... all the levers and such make excellent spots to air dry the gloves and keep em with me.


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## chvymn99 (Nov 6, 2011)

Thats a sweet lookin' Cub.  

I've got both a tandem axle trailer (7,000 #) and single axle trailer (3500 #).  I regularly tow both with my X720 JD.  But I wouldn't tow with that much weight, due to the braking.  Make a extra trip or two to do it safely, and also it will create more seat time.  But here is a picture of my baby hauling wood this morning.


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## Black Jaque Janaviac (Nov 6, 2011)

If breaking seems to be the biggest issue with towing a big trailer behind a small tractor, would it be practical/economical to rig up trailer brakes?  Putting brakes on the trailer isn't more than a hundred or two.  It seems like the whole project would certainly be cheaper that going with a tractor big enough to stop #3500.


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## MasterMech (Nov 6, 2011)

Depends on how much charging system capacity there is on the tractor.  Plus electric trailer brakes are designed to work at high speeds on pavement.  Proportional braking controllers likely won't sense enough deceleration to automatically apply decent braking power and time delay controllers (the cheaper of the two) will frustrate you with either not enough or too much output and virtually never getting it "just right".  Plus the huge draw (up to 20amps, Prolly 10 for a single axle) is rough on garden tractor charging systems of yesteryear.  Most have up to a 10 amp capacity.  Also the first time the brakes lock the wheels on wet, slippery territory, you're in for a ride!  You may not be able to recover from the slide once it happens.  If you only move the heavy loads around on level territory a super heavy duty garden tractor might be up to it but with all the ballasting/counter-weighting required, it's not just a hook up and go situation.  Keep in mind that if the tractor isn't big enough to stop 3500lbs, then what happens when Plan A doesn't work as expected?  Economical solution maybe but practical? I vote no. And it certainly carries some safety points worth considering.


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## pen (Nov 7, 2011)

Black Jaque Janaviac said:
			
		

> If breaking seems to be the biggest issue with towing a big trailer behind a small tractor, would it be practical/economical to rig up trailer brakes?  Putting brakes on the trailer isn't more than a hundred or two.  It seems like the whole project would certainly be cheaper that going with a tractor big enough to stop #3500.



The electric trailer brakes that I am familiar with only work going forward and stopping.  If you try and have the brakes hold you going backwards, look out below!

pen


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## Gary_602z (Nov 7, 2011)

Brakes won't do you any good if your load is pushing you past your traction limit of your tractor tires. Kinda like having your tires locked up on ice! :bug: 

Gary


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## OhioBurner© (Nov 7, 2011)

Yes, and I've even been suggested that on other forums. For a real highway legal trailer then sure. Most folks using smaller tractors though are pulling large carts or wagons that dont have real axles. That pic above that shows my 6x10... I want to put a larger axle + brakes on it since the trailer was built so darn heavy duty, but the whole upgrade would cost as much as buying another trailer if I could find a good deal used.

And if you only want it for an emergency it could either be on or off, dont need to mess with setting up the feedback right or anything. But the traction issue mentioned above is another good point...


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## Black Jaque Janaviac (Nov 9, 2011)

Ok so as I'm learning a little more about tractors I see the terminology is a big confusing.

There are lawn tractors, garden tractors, sub-compact tractors, and compact tractors.

Would a sub-compact tractor do the job of towing #3500?  I see they run price tags in the range of $10K.  Can they be found used for much cheaper?  That John Deere 420 picture someone posted is way too big.


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## oldspark (Nov 9, 2011)

Black Jaque Janaviac said:
			
		

> If breaking seems to be the biggest issue with towing a big trailer behind a small tractor, would it be practical/economical to rig up trailer brakes?  Putting brakes on the trailer isn't more than a hundred or two.  It seems like the whole project would certainly be cheaper that going with a tractor big enough to stop #3500.


 Spinning out going up a hill aint no picnic either.


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## wkpoor (Nov 9, 2011)

Black Jaque Janaviac said:
			
		

> Ok so as I'm learning a little more about tractors I see the terminology is a big confusing.
> 
> There are lawn tractors, garden tractors, sub-compact tractors, and compact tractors.
> 
> Would a sub-compact tractor do the job of towing #3500?  I see they run price tags in the range of $10K.  Can they be found used for much cheaper?  That John Deere 420 picture someone posted is way too big.


One thing to take note of when looking to buy a tractor. The bigger they are the cheaper they are to buy at least comparing used. 10K will by a whole lot of farm tractor but new very very little. You could get 50-75 PTO HP for 10K in farm size. And remember this too small tractors are rated on the engine like lawn mowers and farm on the PTO. Sometimes that can be a big difference.


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## Jags (Nov 9, 2011)

Something about this size.  That is a 5 x10 trailer with approx 4000+ pounds on it (yeah, I know that is overloaded - it stayed very local).  The tractor is a mid 70's Allis Chalmers hydro garden tractor (12hp).  Yanks that thing around without any problem.  Chains stay on at all times.  The hitch is also custom.


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## begreen (Nov 9, 2011)

U boyz got all the kewl toyz.


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## Thistle (Nov 9, 2011)

Jags said:
			
		

> Something about this size.  That is a 5 x10 trailer with approx 4000+ pounds on it (yeah, I know that is overloaded - it stayed very local).  The tractor is a mid 70's Allis Chalmers hydro garden tractor (12hp).  Yanks that thing around without any problem.  Chains stay on at all times.  The hitch is also custom.



LOL try that on my steep slopes & see what happens.


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## Frozen Canuck (Nov 10, 2011)

Black Jaque Janaviac said:
			
		

> I've got a 5x10 trailer which rides on a single 3500# axle.  How small can I go with a lawn tractor that would still be capable of towing it (3500#)?



Agree with the advise on getting a smaller, older farm tractor 50's or 60's versions. Should be available & cheap as in under $1000.

You simply can't beat having enough weight to handle what is hitched on & the breaking power/traction to get it all stopped. Stuff happens.

With the money saved you will be able to put turf saver tires on the farm tractor if you are worried about lawn damage.


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## MasterMech (Nov 10, 2011)

Black Jaque Janaviac said:
			
		

> Ok so as I'm learning a little more about tractors I see the terminology is a big confusing.
> 
> There are lawn tractors, garden tractors, sub-compact tractors, and compact tractors.
> 
> Would a sub-compact tractor do the job of towing #3500?  I see they run price tags in the range of $10K.  Can they be found used for much cheaper?  That John Deere 420 picture someone posted is way too big.



Sub-Compact would do it if it had a loader or counterweight on the front end.  Leave it in 4WD unless you're on level ground.

The 420 in the picture is a small farm tractor from the 50's.  JD also made a super-duty garden tractor in the 80's that was dubbed a 420.  About the same size as a 425 or X700 series.


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## SolarAndWood (Nov 10, 2011)

Black Jaque Janaviac said:
			
		

> Would a sub-compact tractor do the job of towing #3500?  I see they run price tags in the range of $10K.



That 2wd 70s 25hp Kubota pulling my 5K dump trailer was less than $2K in nice shape.  Same tractor had no problem with a 6' finish mower, brush hog, 8' rake, 4' tiller or 5' front snow plow.  Not sure 4wd is worth paying for unless you want to run a loader.  In that case, you are pushing 10K for something decent.


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## SolarAndWood (Nov 10, 2011)

Jags said:
			
		

> Something about this size



Damn, the back of that seat must be bigger than the hood.


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## Jags (Nov 10, 2011)

Thistle said:
			
		

> LOL try that on my steep slopes & see what happens.



Then I would break out either the VC Case, the VAC Case, or if you really need to pull - the DC Case.  If I need 4 wheel drive I can get the old Jeep forward control out or just say Screw it and load it into the bucket of my backhoe and drive where I want. :lol: 

I Gotz options. :coolsmile: 

And Solar - its air ride too. Check out the seat on my big mower:


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## SolarAndWood (Nov 11, 2011)

Jags said:
			
		

> And Solar - its air ride too. Check out the seat on my big mower:



So, is that a lawn, garden or sub compact tractor? :lol:   Beautiful machine.


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## Jags (Nov 14, 2011)

SolarAndWood said:
			
		

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None of the above.  In 1939 when that thing was built, it was considered a full size farm tractor.  Originally at 24HP and now pumped up to about 27HP.


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