# New here - IWB or OWB installation costs & recommendations



## burnergirl (Mar 29, 2015)

Hi there, I've been lurking on this forum for a few weeks trying to absorb all I can but I feel like I've gotten to a point where I am looking for some advice from you fine folks.

I live in Central NC, about 30 minutes from the VA border, where winter temps can get down to about 5-10°F (but are typically in the 20's overnight). I have a 5,600 sf old farmhouse with minimal insulation and old doors (both of which will be addressed this year - adding insulation to attic, basement, and replacing drafty doors). 

I need to figure out a way to heat 3,800 sf (the main and 2nd floor of the house) with a wood boiler. I am currently burning through approximately 350 gallons of propane each month for a heating bill of approximately $900/mo. during the winter. This is clearly not sustainable as I'm not rich and don't want to keep throwing money at the propane company. 

I have looked at both the IWB and OWB and am slightly confused after speaking with numerous dealers. I want to use the wood boiler as my main heat source for my hotwater baseboards and domestic hot water and have the system go to an automatic backup of the propane boiler if the temp drops. This doesn't appear to be an issue with most systems. My issue seems to be one of what exactly is necessary to install a good solid system. I am fine with building an outbuilding to house the boiler however this will be approximately 250 ft from the basement where it will need to hook into the existing system. I have been educated in the benefits of thermal storage however I'm not sure whether this is recommended for OWBs as well as IWBs. Also, I was shown a setup recently that had additional expansion tanks. Are these required with every setup? I really want to keep my costs overall INCLUDING installation below $15,000. Is this feasible? I've been warned that installation alone could cost $5-10k which blows my mind.  I cannot do any of the installation or setup myself therefore suggestions of doing so will be ignored. Also, I'm not interested in coal burning so please save your breath. I want high efficiency (phase 2 compliant) and minimal cost. 

Thank you in advance for your help. This forum is filled with super knowledgeable people and I feel like I've been educated tremendously already!


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## __dan (Mar 29, 2015)

I have ~$15,000. in material alone into my system. That's just the boiler (Froling), the header with two sets of OAT controlled injection mixing pumps (one for oil, one for wood), indirect hot water (existing tank), the flue, tied into an existing system. Does not include the future 400 gal pressurized storage tank.

I would guess anyone with a running build that came in under that number did a self install so the number carries zero for labor. I would very fairly quote my install with a storage tank in the range of $25K installed. The underground run and outbuilding would be additional.

Not to scare you but that's the range of numbers I have into it. Compared to burning oil I have more heat, more pride and enjoyment in my firemaking, and payback less than five years. That's what I would suggest first is to look at your future propane cost for five to ten years out, in aggregate. That number, and what you can do or spend that kind of money on alternately, for heat but not propane. Getting that number, you could have more than $30,000 in future propane cost over the next ten years, money that could be spent on insulation, siding, windows, a boiler.

It took me more than a couple of years of reading here to get a plan together.


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## burnergirl (Mar 29, 2015)

Thanks for the reply, Dan. Is it possibly lower cost to install going with an OWB? I've looked at the Froling and that seemed to be a very high end indoor boiler. I have been considering the Varmebaronen Vedolux 55 with 3 Aqualux UB 1000 storage tanks or the Econoburn for indoor systems and Crown Royal RS7300E and Heatmaster G200 (or G400? not sure which makes more sense). None of the OWB sites seem to talk about thermal storage. Is it a necessity going that route? It seems like that would save money (perhaps not time) with the install? Is it feasible to get under $25,000 all in? I don't really understand why the installation cost is astronomical.


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## __dan (Mar 29, 2015)

IWB and OWB are completely different animals.

The Europeans are much more into wood burning and "green". Starting back as far as the 1970's the Europeans started regulating emissions and efficiency. It took 30 years for that curve to trend down. The surviving technology is downdraft gasification boilers with storage for continuous hot burning to exhaustion of the fuel load, with the excess heat over demand going to storage. Garns are also in that league.

For the same money, American style OWB's can be expected to smoke, smolder, and burn twice the fuel for the same heat. OWB's are not cheaper initially, and certainly not cheaper over the life of the install.

Contracting is a wide open competitive market so there's no producer pricing power. There's not enough paying work for everyone who wants to compete. Lower price installs I would expect to have lower quality materials and labor below what I would feel comfortable building. You are welcome to go into business producing something for the general public, see what your expenses are, see what the market is willing to pay, and usually see the resulting deficits. To be fair, I feel it is impossible to get the quality level I demand by hiring other contractors, who are most likely tuned into producing for a lower bid market. I have to build my stuff myself. 

It's a large and long lived capital expense or investment which requires a high level of specialized knowledge to pursue and carry out. It is not in the mainstream of cookie cutter, cut and paste, standard high volume high production jobs, which does add to the cost some.

There are ways to cut cost but they would involve deleting materials and controls, operating features, that I would not in good conscience delete. The better quality higher cost job is frequently cheaper and better performing over the life of the install. It is a money saver to invest wisely.


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## JP11 (Mar 30, 2015)

I scrounged storage tanks and got them for free.  I still ended up around 16k.  

Yes, expansion is needed for all, assuming that you use pressurized storage.  Pressurized storage is able to go higher on temperature, thus giving you a bigger swing from Hot to Cold.. extending your time between fires.

JP


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## Hydronics (Mar 30, 2015)

My advise: avoid OWB's - not as efficient and generally lesser quality. You can save a lot if you install an indoor in the basement assuming this is an option. I prefer it in out building but underground piping is a large expense. Even a gasification boiler without storage will put you way ahead of an OWB.
For lower cost, quality gasifiers you might consider EKO or Biomass from New Horizon, Vigas from AHONA and also Econoburn. You could install storage at a later date when you have the money. You would need to be more selective when burning in your warmer environment, you don't want it idling for hours when it's 50* outside. Use propane when it's warmer.
If you can fit a Garn in your basement or garage you will already have storage as it's built into the unit and they are high quality.
Another important consideration: you will need dry wood so get it cut split and stacked ASAP. This will only give one summer of dry time which is marginal.


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## burnergirl (Mar 30, 2015)

Hydronics said:


> My advise: avoid OWB's - not as efficient and generally lesser quality. You can save a lot if you install an indoor in the basement assuming this is an option. I prefer it in out building but underground piping is a large expense. Even a gasification boiler without storage will put you way ahead of an OWB.
> For lower cost, quality gasifiers you might consider EKO or Biomass from New Horizon, Vigas from AHONA and also Econoburn. You could install storage at a later date when you have the money. You would need to be more selective when burning in your warmer environment, you don't want it idling for hours when it's 50* outside. Use propane when it's warmer.
> If you can fit a Garn in your basement or garage you will already have storage as it's built into the unit and they are high quality.
> Another important consideration: you will need dry wood so get it cut split and stacked ASAP. This will only give one summer of dry time which is marginal.



Thanks Hydronics for the input. 

My narrow basement stairs make a basement installation very difficult, not to mention the fact that I'm not thrilled with dealing with transporting the wood down there as it is not in a good location as far as where my wood will be delivered and stored. I'm well aware that my wood is not going to be dry enough for a while which totally freaks me out but I can't commit to a wood delivery without really knowing what direction I'm heading.

I've been studying all of the gasifiers you've mentioned except for the Garn as I thought it was a very high-end product and didn't realize that it encompassed the storage. I'll take another look and see if that makes more sense. Thanks.


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## maple1 (Mar 30, 2015)

*Another important consideration: you will need dry wood so get it cut split and stacked ASAP. This will only give one summer of dry time which is marginal.*

This. You haven't said anything about keeping a wood boiler in good fuel. So how is your fuel supply situation? How much are you expecting to burn each winter, or would be prepared to put up/get ready/buy each year? If you don't have next years wood cut, split & drying now, you are already somewhat behind an 8-ball.

On costs, I'm right around $15k CDN. That's new boiler, used propane storage & expansion tanks, new electric hot water tank, backup electric boiler, and all miscellaneous piping & fittings stuff. Basically the whole house heating system except zone valves & rads. Also includes around $1500 to get it here in freight/duty/exchange. But I did everything myself - not sure how much $ saving that translates into, but I put a LOT of hours into it.

There are also some very nice pellet boilers on the market now too.


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## burnergirl (Mar 30, 2015)

maple1 said:


> So how is your fuel supply situation? How much are you expecting to burn each winter, or would be prepared to put up/get ready/buy each year? If you don't have next years wood cut, split & drying now, you are already somewhat behind an 8-ball.



My fuel supply situation is nonexistent at the moment which I know puts me way behind the 8-ball! I'm expecting to burn 8-10 cords a winter and as soon as I can figure out that I can afford to do this, I will be commissioning a carpenter to build me a wood shed that holds at least 8 cords. 




maple1 said:


> On costs, I'm right around $15k CDN. That's new boiler, used propane storage & expansion tanks, new electric hot water tank, backup electric boiler, and all miscellaneous piping & fittings stuff. Basically the whole house heating system except zone valves & rads. Also includes around $1500 to get it here in freight/duty/exchange. But I did everything myself - not sure how much $ saving that translates into, but I put a LOT of hours into it.
> There are also some very nice pellet boilers on the market now too.



If I'm around $20k US all in (including installation), that's not a deal breaker. 

I would consider a pellet boiler only if it took cord wood too which I know some do but I don't want to be a slave to the pellet companies either but I know that would save me the first year while my wood dries out.


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## Floydian (Mar 30, 2015)

Hi burnergirl,

Can you give us some more info about your current heat distribution setup? I'm hoping you say cast iron radiators but I'm guessing forced air. Apologies if you already mentioned this and I missed it. The type of heating system you have will be a big factor in your decisions going forward.

Do you have or need AC?

Another big factor is your actual heat load. Estimating this based on you propane usage might get you close but maybe not. Poorly designed/installed duct work can really kill the efficiency of forced air systems and it would be a BIG bummer to spend lots of $ on a wood heating system that wont really overcome this. Not nearly as big a deal if you have radiators and you are circulating hot water.

Back to the heat load thing- The proper way to go about this would be to start with an accurate heat loss calculation. This will determine supply temps, flow rates, tubing sizing, pump sizing, heat exchanger sizing, etc. Yes, it's somewhat complicated but certainly something you could do yourself. Calculating conductive heat loss is pretty straight forward, estimating air leakage rates less so.
A blower door test could be a big help when it comes to the efficiency upgrades you plan for the house. Adding insulation wont have much benefit if you don't properly air seal first.

Sorry, I'm rambling and I've gotta go but I have a indoor gasifier and thermal storage setup and I might not be too far away from you. You'd be welcome to check it out if you think seeing a setup like this in person would help with your decision.

Noah


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## Tennman (Mar 30, 2015)

BG, We were in almost exactly the same situation 7 years ago with our almost 5,000sf home that is about the same latitude, Tenn/AL line. Latitude is a big deal. I'm guessing your home is old and remote also. We had propane bills similar to yours with the thermostat set on the low 60's back when propane was much cheaper. We didn't want to spend $1200/month to be comfortable (~68F) so i started researching alternatives. Also, our property has enough timber to provide free fuel indefinitely if I could process it.

Our home is remote and we have many of neighbors with Hardy OWBs which I was going to install until I discovered this site. I spoke with many Hardy/OWB users and the theme was always similar. They were run by active, healthy men who liked the savings and warmth of their homes, but admitted spending a LOT of time and energy gathering wood to keep their beasts fed. And most of their homes were half the size of ours. 

Now... I feel like I need to get personal. Will you be the primary or only operator of the boiler. I ask because my wife actually enjoys running the boiler, she runs the splitter when necessary to make smaller splits, pulls a small wagon load of wood into our boiler barn during the winter, has learned when to feed, and how to deal with bridging. In general she can/will run the boiler when I'm on travel for as long as a week at a time. She's never taken off the bottom or top clean-out panels to do periodic maintenance, removed ash from bottom chamber, cleaned the top chamber, removed turbulators and run a brush to clean the tubes, replaced damaged ceramics, or tuned vents/adjusted fan. Had I known we would actually enjoy the wood boiler lifestyle, I would have spent an additional $4-5K for a higher end boiler like operated by some of the posters above with a kinder operating and maintenance schedule. Regardless, it became apparent to me this winter that at the age of 62, I would reach a point where it would become difficult and unsafe for me to process wood by myself. If I suddenly disappeared, my wife could not sustain the boiler without me. I think most guys here would agree that if they were suddenly gone, their wife's would have to come up with an alternative heating source if they wanted to keep their home, which we definitely do (our property will be passed to our children).

I'll summarize because I'm getting too long, if pellets are available in your area, consider a pellet boiler. If you'll be buying all your wood and paying for delivery/stacking, the difference in annual heating costs could be surprisingly small for a dramatic reduction in time/maintenance. We'll be adding a pellet boiler this summer to complement our wood boiler. As I'm forced to buy instead of process wood, the wood vs pellet heating cost difference narrows. 

The last few days down here in the south, day temps were mid 50's with nites in the mid 20's. In the south we see extremes like this frequently during the winter (50F days are not unusual in January). If you go with a wood boiler that is where storage becomes a dream and amazingly freeing. Ironically, I think storage is more useful in the south than for northern operators now that we've experienced it since we can have "shoulder" seasons basically all winter.

Sorry I got so long winded but we live in a latitude where air conditioning is required and large winter temperature swings are common. You've found the right site with very knowledgeable and helpful guys. Ladies posting here are rare. Ask away and you'll get lots of generous advice. You need to discuss if your boiler must use ductwork or radiant type heating. Lots to learn.

Best wishes.


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## ewdudley (Mar 30, 2015)

And don't forget coal.  You can probably have them bring you a 22.5 ton load of anthracite down I81 for less than $6,000 that would last you 6 years or more.  Boilers are less expensive and can go into your existing  basement, no OWB, no boiler shed, no hot water storage tanks, no underground lines, no splitting, no stacking, no taking your ear off with a chainsaw.


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## pulse (Mar 30, 2015)

I would highly recommend taking a close look at the new g200 from heatmaster. If what I have been reading about them is true, they could be a real game changer for the owb world.  I dont have a clue on price but I can't imagine them being much over 10k. I would think 15k would get you a turn key system.


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## S.Whiplash (Mar 30, 2015)

A little reading of the original post answers some of these questions.  As she mentioned she has hot water baseboards so most of her hydronic heating system is already in place, she just needs to tie into it.  Expansion tank for in house system is probably already there if the installer knew what he was doing.  Many less expensive wood boiler options available  than a Froling and for 5,600 sq. ft. you will probably need a wood boiler with an output of around 200,000 btu's but could potentially save some coin and get by with smaller output of 150,000 if for sure going with thermal storage.

Putting a boiler in a shop is a great idea especially since you are having a new wood shed constructed.  Why not add another 10-12 ft. for a boiler room?  There are also outdoor wood gasification boilers available that work quite efficiently and do not require a building.  Empire Elite XT, Polar G-2 and Econoburn EBW-O to mention a few options available.  Boiler alone will run around $8,000-10,000 and another large expense will be good quality underground pipe which runs $12-14/ft..

As mentioned the most economical bang for the buck for thermal storage are decommissioned 500 gal. propane tanks which can be picked up when available for $200-$500 and with some cleaning and fittings welded on will probably cost you less than $800 in total.  Purchasing new a 500 gal. thermal storage tanks runs around $3500.  A propane tank also needs to be insulated and placed inside and not likely to get down your stairs so this makes the shop or wood shed installation look like the most viable option.

Hope this helps.


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## Mike Fromme (Mar 30, 2015)

Since you're not doing the install I'd buy from a full service dealer. One that sells, installs and and can fix it when needed. In my area that rules out most everyone except for tarm/froling.

Install costs are high because of all the various parts and controls that are needed in addition to the actual boiler. I'd expect 2-3k in labor and that much again in parts, more if you are doing storage. Expansion tanks for 1000 gallons and or heat exchangers are not cheap.


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## Como (Mar 30, 2015)

I have been paying less that 2 dollars a gallon for propane.

It does not sound like you have a massive load, maybe 6 cords a year? 

Maybe less depending on how effective your insulation will be.

The big question is if you have to buy in wood or can source yourself.

Personally I think propane is low and will increase but at the moment 350 gallons in a high efficiency boiler is 30 million BTUs. The wood equivalent assuming good hard wood in a gasser would be a cord and half. So how much would wood cost you?

I am not as anti old fashioned OWBs, I can see circumstances where they make sense. For example the local fire station has one, no neighbours and there is a dump for trash wood that they feed it with.

Another OWB, a semi gasser runs pretty much flat out as it heats partially a hotel, not much idling. There is a gas boiler that tops up when needed.

Personally I would do my insulation and infiltration, start building up my wood supply and see how it goes next year and how big a wood system I would need if I go that route.

Better to keep the crud outside.


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## flyingcow (Mar 31, 2015)

Get your house tightened up as planned/ This will lower your costs a lot more than you think. IMO, don't skimp. Do it right. Money well spent. 

Wood? if you got 8 cord right now, cut/split/stacked in a nice location, it _*should *_dry down pretty good. not ideal, but it'll do. Oh yeah, you might as well buy 16 cord. should have at least one yrs of wood drying at least for 12 months. If you haven't seen 16 cord of wood in a big pile, it'll take up alot of room. Could be a bit overwhelming at first. 

Wood shed?? Make it big enough to hold 2 yrs of wood. save a lot of handling. Needs to be ventilated well. 

Sometimes you can find some really good deals on used wood boilers. especially in the next few months.

Underground piping. Probably looking at $15 a ft. plus excavation. Not cheap. 

Installers familiar with wood boilers? Or dealers that sell wood boilers and install also? If you find some, see if you can  visit some of their installs. Also, you've got one offer from here to go see an install. be worth the trip IMO. 

Keep hanging out on this site. learn as you go. Good group of people here. you may not be able to complete the boiler project this year? Or change your mind and look at pellets? keep options open. 

I have it very easy compared to others when it comes to handling wood.All my wood goes on pallets and is moved by tractor.  But it's still alot of work. If i had to do it all over again, i'd look at pellets, coal and even heat pumps(which i already have). BTW, whats your cost for electricity? i also have air sourced Heat pumps. i like them, they even  work well up here in northern maine. Down where you are? should work very well. 

there are a few good websites to visit concerning insulating an existing house. more to it than some think. Maybe this DIY group could supply links to sites they use?


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## JP11 (Mar 31, 2015)

Even with my wood boiler now.. 

If I could wave a magic wand and do it over...

Another inverter, and another 5wk worth of solar panels... and some mini split heat pumps.. maybe a pellet boiler for radiant in the basement.

I could have done it a lot more efficient.

JP


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## burnergirl (Mar 31, 2015)

Wow! Thank you for all the replies! I had computer issues yesterday and am now catching up on the posts.

So I had a boiler specialist come out today to take a look and give me a ballpark for installation. It was anything but good news and now I'm even more confused about what I need to be doing.

This is from the email he sent me after he ran numbers (bold highlights are courtesy of me):
"www.uponorpro.com has the prices on there website for pre insulated pipe. I figured on the 2” pipe. It comes in a 300ft roll. You need approx. 200ft we said. You have to buy the whole roll though. It’s $43.50 per foot. Thats $13,050.00. I ran quick numbers on the labor. If I had three men on the job for 4 days, thats 96 man hours. *Labor is gonna be around $18,000.00* . *We are already up to $31K without the cost of the equipment or a ditch dug*. "

Uhhh, is he crazy or am I just going about this in the wrong way? The boiler would be about 100-150 ft from the basement so it would require piping there and back to close the loop. I think I'm losing my mind.

---
I'm going to edit here so that I don't keep responding over and over again in the thread. I apologize if I miss some questions that were asked -

-Yes I'm going to be the primary person handling everything with the wood to the boiler, etc. I'm in decent shape and I'm fairly young (depending on who you ask!), I believe I can swing that part of it.

-I just went and saw an Econoburn setup recently that looked great but it did trigger me to write this post because of learning about the added costs involved. I would certainly love to take Noah up on his offer to visit and check out the set up however I'm still not sure that would solve my main issue of overall installation costs. 

- My house has hot water baseboard heat and only the 2nd floor (where the bedrooms are) has ductwork for A/C. I have ONE zone (and no A/C downstairs) which makes me very sad because HVAC people have come in and told me that it would be a nightmare to split the zones once they looked at my pipes. 

-I have plaster walls and ceilings so adding ductwork would only really happen through the basement up through the floors. I've been quoted ~$20k to add ductwork which doesn't seem worth it at this point.

-I am in the boonies and have plentiful access to wood.


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## Hydronics (Mar 31, 2015)

Without having actual btu requirements you'd likely need 1.25" or 1.5" tubing at that distance. That should run you less than $20/ft without labor. The closer you put the boiler to the house the more you can obviously save.
I'd prioritize insulation and maybe consider a pellet boiler in basement as another option. Can you get pellet bags in through a basement window with a chute? Or do the same with wood if you go that route? You would need a flue also for a wood boiler.


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## JP11 (Mar 31, 2015)

If I were you.. I'd be looking pellet boiler.  Plastic kids slide thru a window. 

You can stack the heck out of the bags.  No storage needed (water storage tanks that is)

No wood shed to be built (there's your first and second year's pellet budget right there)

much cheaper.  If you don't own a woodlot already.. I'd go with a windhager.

JP


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## pulse (Mar 31, 2015)

Pretty sure your numbers are totally and completely out of wack. If your installer quoted those, don't walk....run away. No reason your system couldn't easily be split once in the house also, hot water hx for the baseboard and water to air for the upstairs duct work. No reason to add duct work down stairs.


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## Como (Mar 31, 2015)

2  inch implies a heat load of probably 4 times your current demand.


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## Woodfarmer1 (Apr 1, 2015)

Why does the boiler need to be so far from your house?
The underground piping has supply and return tubing inside it so you don't require two separate pipes.
I put in 75' backhoe dug 5' trench and we had it covered in less than an hour.

Last fall I,purchased the Garn Jr. (After having run an empyre without storage) imho, garn is the only way to go, you'll need the larger 2000.
Fire and storage contained in one unit, extremely easy to operate with very little maintenance involved.

You should be able to do a similar install as mine with the Garn 2000 for $20 000 connected to your existing heating system.


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## burnergirl (Apr 1, 2015)

Hydronics said:


> Without having actual btu requirements you'd likely need 1.25" or 1.5" tubing at that distance. That should run you less than $20/ft without labor. The closer you put the boiler to the house the more you can obviously save.
> I'd prioritize insulation and maybe consider a pellet boiler in basement as another option. Can you get pellet bags in through a basement window with a chute? Or do the same with wood if you go that route? You would need a flue also for a wood boiler.



I'll look more into pellets but I'm just not sure how anyone is going to get any heavy boiler down into the basement due to very narrow stairs that turn at the doorway to enter. 



pulse said:


> Pretty sure your numbers are totally and completely out of wack. If your installer quoted those, don't walk....run away. No reason your system couldn't easily be split once in the house also, hot water hx for the baseboard and water to air for the upstairs duct work. No reason to add duct work down stairs.



That makes me feel better! I will keep interviewing installers. 



Como said:


> 2 inch implies a heat load of probably 4 times your current demand.



That's very interesting. This installer was thinking I needed 200,000 BTUs. 



Woodfarmer1 said:


> Why does the boiler need to be so far from your house?
> The underground piping has supply and return tubing inside it so you don't require two separate pipes.
> I put in 75' backhoe dug 5' trench and we had it covered in less than an hour.


I had no idea. This is great news about the same pipes. The boiler needs to be so far from the house due to the way my house and land are situated. I don't have any way for anyone to drive a truck up on the other side of my house (without the driveway) and my land is very soft so even if they tried they'd sink in which I can't have. If the boiler was near the driveway I could have my wood deliveries near the planned wood shed and boiler comfortably.


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## Tennman (Apr 1, 2015)

Your home is somewhat larger than ours, but it's probably somewhat more energy efficient. Based on wood consumption and propane use we average about 60-70kbtu/hr over the winter to heat our downstairs to 68*F. Peak demand on very cold days/nites probably hits ~150-180kbtu/hr from our 60 Class boiler. The heat rises and keeps the upstairs to a comfortable low 60's for bedrooms. Our boiler is about 150' underground using 1 1/4" pex. The system would have been happier with 1 1/2" pex, but 1 1/4" works fine. Did you ask him how many boiler systems they have installed. That's the other problem being in the south, just not many people who've done this.



burnergirl said:


> -Yes I'm going to be the primary person handling everything with the wood to the boiler, etc. I'm in decent shape and I'm fairly young (depending on who you ask!), I believe I can swing that part of it.



My questions about running the boiler was not health or strength related. There is far more involved than just feeding the boiler. I'll admit, maybe our BioMass may not be as user friendly as the Froling, Vigas, Varm, or some of the other mid to high level boilers, but it's definitely not just feed it and let it run. I don't know how to convey this, but ours requires low level mechanical skills similar to keeping an old car running. Changing plugs, doing brakes, messing with the radiator... etc. Hopefully others can chime in. My wife is athletic, healthy and strong with above average mechanical aptitude, but she would NOT do everything necessary to keep our boiler running properly all season. 

Certainly other boilers are probably less demanding. My suggestion is read the EKO and BioMass stickies above. It will give some perspective what some of us go thru to get them and keep them running. It's worthwhile to notice that Froling, Garn, Vigas and some others haven't needed a Sticky. 

Not saying you can't, but to my knowledge every poster in those stickies are guys committed to saving their families money burning wood and willing to spend time/energy to do it. I'm just trying to make you aware that there's far more involved than just feeding the beast. And all the extra attention is highly dependent on which boiler you select based on my 7 years hanging out here. Running our wood boiler is nothing like what the BioWin pellet guys describe. I'm trying to give you advice I'd be giving to my daughter. Best wishes.


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## velvetfoot (Apr 1, 2015)

Tennman said:


> Running our wood boiler is nothing like what the BioWin pellet guys describe.


True, but I just spent $272 a ton for next year's pellets.


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## Como (Apr 1, 2015)

burnergirl said:


> I'll look more into pellets but I'm just not sure how anyone is going to get any heavy boiler down into the basement due to very narrow stairs that turn at the doorway to enter.
> 
> That's very interesting. This installer was thinking I needed 200,000 BTUs.
> 
> ...



That number of btu's does not tie in with your propane consumption. It would be akin to burning over 2 gallons of propane an hour. You would notice that bill.


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## burnergirl (Apr 1, 2015)

Tennman said:


> I don't know how to convey this, but ours requires low level mechanical skills similar to keeping an old car running. Changing plugs, doing brakes, messing with the radiator... etc. Hopefully others can chime in. My wife is athletic, healthy and strong with above average mechanical aptitude, but she would NOT do everything necessary to keep our boiler running properly all season.



Oh wow, I did not really think about that. I was hoping for feeding and cleaning the beast only. I am not handy at all and would not feel comfortable messing with anything on it. 



Como said:


> That number of btu's does not tie in with your propane consumption. It would be akin to burning over 2 gallons of propane an hour. You would notice that bill.



That's interesting. This guy is a seasoned boiler mechanic/servicer, I don't think he know much about wood boilers however. He's interested in selling me a high-efficiency propane boiler most of all I believe. I'm just not sold on it yet. I don't want to sink $10k+ into any system and turn around and regret my choice when the energy prices rise (whatever fuel that may be).


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## Como (Apr 1, 2015)

burnergirl said:


> Oh wow, I did not really think about that. I was hoping for feeding and cleaning the beast only. I am not handy at all and would not feel comfortable messing with anything on it.
> 
> That's interesting. This guy is a seasoned boiler mechanic/servicer, I don't think he know much about wood boilers however. He's interested in selling me a high-efficiency propane boiler most of all I believe. I'm just not sold on it yet. I don't want to sink $10k+ into any system and turn around and regret my choice when the energy prices rise (whatever fuel that may be).



Propane boilers can modulate, I have a propane boiler which is rated at 400,000 BTUs. That is conneced with 2 inch lines. When it is running it does not have to be full on, can run a partial load and can in addition turn on an off. So a 200,000 btu boiler may make sense even if over the top when using propane.

Wood boilers are not so variable, closest to a propane boiler would be wood chip or pellet, cord wood boilers work best flat out which is why they are often teamed up with storage which acts like a battery.

If you look at the modern high end boilers then there is not a lot of difference but inevitably due tp the fuel supply it is going to be messier.

I would have gone with wood chip if it was not for the issue of chipping wood and storage. It can get really cold where I am so you could end up with a big frozen lump. Pellets avoid this but you are back with a difficult to control cost.

I think for most using cord wood the plus is that you can always get your fuel supply for your time and a little cost.  I can look out of the window and see many square miles where the land owners are happy to get rid of their dead wood. Could live another life time and never make much of a dent in what is down.

Having said that my best deal was 3 semi loads of beetle kill logs delivered.


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## Hydronics (Apr 2, 2015)

My Wife is pretty handy but if I weren't around I'm not sure she'd have success keeping the wood boiler going without a bit of help the 1 or 2 times a year a minor issue arises.
I was thinking though that this would be the case with a pellet boiler also - there are actually many more moving parts. I share your concerns with pellets: you're still subject to market prices, though more local.
Ultimately, if you can't self-install you just need a local, knowledgeable, honest heating guy that has experience with whatever boiler you do get. This may be tough the further South you are.
I still think that the simplicity and durability of a Garn would be your best bet. No bridging concerns or complex controls. You would want an experienced installer who can show you the ropes initially. I would contact them and see if there is a dealer/installer for your area. They do require annual water sampling but that's not a big deal, take it and send it to them for analysis, they recommend any necessary balancing chemicals.


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## Mike Fromme (Apr 2, 2015)

Running a gasser does not need to be complicated. A lot of it depends on the piping and wiring scheme. 

I have the same boiler as ten man and I have it set so you put wood in it, press start and throw in a match. No further user interventions are needed. The controls decide where and when to send the heat. If storage gets below a useable temp it switches over to oil. The next time you start a fire once the boiler is up to temp it switches off the oil. 

It did take a few days of trial and error to get the air settings perfect, but I haven't had to touch them in four years. Or anything really except the start button .

I used one of the TARM plumbing schematics that they have available on their website. Since your not doing the install yourself I'd look to see if they have an experienced dealer in your area that does installs and service.


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## JP11 (Apr 2, 2015)

Mike.

I'm much in the same boat.  Load, light, walk away. If it cools off, oil boiler kicks in.  However.. To be fair.  There is still cleaning ash out (not just daily rake out)  I do a exchanger brush out every 5 or 6 weeks.  To you and I.. that 15 or 20 minutes is about like vacuuming out a car.  To others, the idea of taking off 4 bolts, brushing the tubes, and using an ash vac, then making sure the rope seal is good, and bolting on the cover.... might seem like a lot of 'mechanic' work.

JP


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## Mike Fromme (Apr 2, 2015)

Fair enough...

Weekly I shovel out the ashes out of the lower door. And  brush out the lower chamber. Probabky takes 10 minutes or so. And monthly I do a more thorough ash removal by scraping the ashes in the upper chamber to the lower before I clean it.  None of which is really more complicated then cleaning out a woodstove. Though the volume of ash is greater... I produced 25 gallons of ash this year from about 10 cord of pine.

Annually I do the mechanic type work of removing a few bolts and cleaning the tubes and vacuuming out all the ash, adjusting the door seals etc. and cleaning the chimney. If the OP isn't capable then that's where a full service dealer would be helpful.

I think the biggest obstacle to keep my wife from using it would the amount of work to get the wood to the boiler. So location of the boiler next to where the wood is delivered would be my number one design criteria if I had to it again.


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## nctacoma (Apr 2, 2015)

To give you another idea and suggestion. 

We had a Froling installed this year at our house.  The system is a Froling boiler, two 300 gallon froling storage tanks, and all of the suggested pumps, and pumping.  We didn't do any of the labor ourselves except for to enclose the tanks and insulate the heck out of them.  Our fully installed cost was just a bit north of 20k.  This is for a unit that you fill it with dry seasoned wood, put a few pieces of paper in the lighting door, light it and walk away until the next day when you do it again.  The whole house is evenly warm and we have hot water all the time as well.  We have a backup propane boiler that hasn't been switched on since our November install.  We are going through a lot less wood than when we heated our house with a woodstove with propane boiler backup and the whole house is warm, not just two room near the stove!  
Maintenance is a breeze, just clean out the ashes every few weeks.  Anyone can operate it.
The payoff for us will be in a short 5-7 years and we live in a much much colder heating environment.  The average daily temperature for February of 2015 was -2 degrees(not a typo).  The biggest benefit is that the whole house is evenly warm and a lot less work than constantly tending the woodstove.  I think of it as great investment.

We also are continually tightening up our house with airsealing and insulation.  I think this is the first priority for anyone before just throwing btu's into a heating system and up the chimney.  You might even be able to get away with a smaller boiler if you can reduce your heat loss.

Good luck with your research




burnergirl said:


> Hi there, I've been lurking on this forum for a few weeks trying to absorb all I can but I feel like I've gotten to a point where I am looking for some advice from you fine folks.
> 
> I live in Central NC, about 30 minutes from the VA border, where winter temps can get down to about 5-10°F (but are typically in the 20's overnight). I have a 5,600 sf old farmhouse with minimal insulation and old doors (both of which will be addressed this year - adding insulation to attic, basement, and replacing drafty doors).
> 
> ...


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## velvetfoot (Apr 3, 2015)

If you're buying firewood, how expensive are pellets down where you live?


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## Tennman (Apr 3, 2015)

Velvet, If "down where you live" is directed to us Southerners:

I buy delivered and stacked oak/hickory for ~$150/chord.
I can buy pellets in bulk from the plant for $165/ton.

Burning pellets will be about $400 more/year vs purchased wood ignoring the fuel to go get it.


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## velvetfoot (Apr 3, 2015)

Those are real good prices if you ask me!  Up where I live, I can get wood for 100/cord, but that's in log form, not stacked up nicely, lol.  I just committed to buy 5 tons of pellets for 272/ton-I think they're getting a little crazy here.  My point was, that for OP's specific location,  and if she has to buy wood, split and stacked or not, maybe pellets are worth considering, and the convenience would be worth something.


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## flyingcow (Apr 4, 2015)

Wood up here is $190 a measured cord. Just an hour south of me it's pushing 225/250. I can buy it tree length at 135/140 a cord, but thats a weighted cord(5000lbs).

The paper mills are pushing the prices up on hardwood. I know of at least 5 mills that avg  processing 100 cords an hour of hard wood and turning it into wood pulp or paper.Thats 24/7/365.

So, i think that the OP should get some accurate prices of cord wood and what is the species/btu's of wood.  Every region is different in pricing. I've been able to buy it for 185/190 a cord, but it's just a 1/2 mile away for delivery.

Pellets....don't need to keep two yrs worth on hand. Two yrs of firewood takes up alot of space.And unless you're spoiled like me, it can be alot of re-handling. Firewood can warm you many times over. But it is good exercise, unless you cut your leg off.....PPE's? naww don't need 'em.

Back to the original post that started this thread.....you mentioned insulation. That should be first thing you spend money on. Insulate the crap out of the house. Then walk around on a windy cold day and spray foam and caulk the heck out of everything. Old windows? In the fall the hardware stores should be selling the shrink wrap that you put over windows. Get it. this works very well. take a few minutes and put it on correctly it looks ok. Even experiment a little. Do one window but not the one beside it. You'll fee the difference.

A wood boiler system can/will cost  alot of money. One more winter seeing the propane truck might happen. But after you get the house insulated better this will give you some good numbers on heat load which will help you design/buy a new heating system. Not uncommon for heating companies to over size heating systems, they don't want you calling and complaining about not enough heat. But over-sizing a system is not a good thing. Short cycling is not good. Not very efficient.

My oil fired boiler is a 85,000 btu unit. (1800 sq/ft 2 story house on top of a hill in northern Maine)The old, excuse me, well seasoned gentleman that designed/installed my heating system was stubborn as hell about not over sizing for my house. So i let him do his thing. In the deep of winter, when it's -40f out, the unit runs pretty damn steady, but it kept us warm. He knew what he was doing.

Keep asking questions on here. As i said before, good group of people here with good experience and some bad experiences. I have a solo Innova that has 820 gals of storage that I'm very happy with. I also have a Garn Jr that I'm happy with. Both are very good units. Plus I have two heat pumps. I like those also. Thats why i asked about your electricity rates. Plus with heat pumps you make heat or A/C and get the bill after. No prebuying wood/pellets/oil/propane.

I've got way too many heat sources.....but it's fun hobby? Some people buy fancy cars/boats...I'm a little odd. Also i have a windmill out back.....once that quits I'll have a really nice flag pole.


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## velvetfoot (Apr 4, 2015)

flyingcow said:


> but it's fun hobby


Yep, that can justify a lot of things!


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## burnergirl (Apr 10, 2015)

flyingcow said:


> I've got way too many heat sources.....but it's fun hobby? Some people buy fancy cars/boats...I'm a little odd. Also i have a windmill out back.....once that quits I'll have a really nice flag pole.



Y'all are a good bunch.  I am still trying to figure out options which is why I've been pretty quiet but I appreciate all the input and information! Thank you so much!


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## peakbagger (Apr 10, 2015)

One thing that doesn't appear to have been brought up is the proposed location. If you are not out in a remote area with no nearby neighbors( I would suggest 1/4 mile), then an OWB is not recommended if you want to keep the peace with said neighbors as OWBs tend to stink up the neighborhood, including your own home. Be very careful when looking at OWB efficiencies. Generally the state efficiency is quite high but that is only when there is a demand for heat. Unfortunately, the OWB has to be sized for the maximum heat load so for much of the time the OWB is idling and in that mode the efficiency is poor. This means that much of the wood you are putting in the OWB is going up into the air. Folks who switch from OWBs to indoor gasifiers with storage easily see 50% or more reduction in wood use. Part of that savings is that gasifiers inherently force the operator to use dry wood as they wont run with wet wood. OWB folks love to talk about burning green wood and they can but the majority of the heat in the wood is just converting water in steam that goes up the stack.

The other issue is you need to do the energy upgrades and then calculate the maximum heat load. Going by rule of thumb back of the envelope guesses isn't going to work unless you have thermal storage.

If you have reliable electric power and your utility offers net metering, grid tied solar with minisplits is hard to beat and in your climate the summer time AC is probably appreciated. I would then budget a wood stove in the basement or central core of the house sized to keep the house above freezing in emergencies.


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## Floydian (Apr 10, 2015)

Hey burnergirl,

Hang in there, keep researching and things will become more clear. I maintain that you MUST get a good idea of your design heat load and your annual heat load to make the best decision going forward. As you mentioned, you plan on some energy upgrades to the house. This will be, hands down, the best investment you can make for the long term. With a good energy consultant you should be able to get a reasonable idea of what your future heat load will be before the energy upgrades actually take place. Again, showing you the best places to spend your money.

Spend some time researching here: greenbuildingadvisor.com . It's a great resource and might help you find someone in your area to asses your situation. Someone who is actually gonna crunch some numbers and NOT go by rules of thumb.

Now lets take a quick look at some numbers that you posted in your OP:

350 gallon/mo= ~31.8 MM btus/mo at 100% efficiency which is not the case obviously. So lets guess and say 80% efficient. 31.8 X .8 = 25.5 MM Btus/month delivered.

If, BIG if, you average 25.5 MM Btus/mo for 5 months that would be ~127 MM Btus/year.

Greensboro, for example, cause I don't know where you actually are, averages ~3800 Heating Degree Days and has a outdoor design temp of 18* F ( the temp you are above for 97.5% of the time)

If some of my assumptions above are close then that would give you a design heat load of ~ 110,000 Btu/hr at an 18*F outdoor temp. When you drop down to 5*F you might actually need ~140,000 btus/hr but these conditions don't last very long.

I am guessing your annual and hourly heat loads are not as bad as that, but that is just a guess.

OK, take a look at these number and let me know if I am way off on anything and we can adjust things. If any heating "expert" you have out to your place can't be bothered to do a heat load calculation or at least look at some numbers based on your usage then they are not there to help you. Period.

Noah


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## Floydian (Apr 10, 2015)

peakbagger said:


> If you have reliable electric power and your utility offers net metering, grid tied solar with minisplits is hard to beat and in your climate the summer time AC is probably appreciated. I would then budget a wood stove in the basement or central core of the house sized to keep the house above freezing in emergencies.



This, along with the right energy upgrades is exactly what I would be working towards.


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## peakbagger (Apr 10, 2015)

Tough recommending solar on wood burning site . I have both so I may be a bit more unbiased. Unfortunately the grid tied solar and heat pumps are a lot harder for most folks to get a handle on then wood plus every utility treats solar different so the answers change from utility to utility. .


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## JP11 (Apr 10, 2015)

I have both as well.  There is certainly 'risk' there as your net metering laws could change, and your entire payoff can be shot to pieces.  Never know when lawmakers are involved.


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## Como (Apr 11, 2015)

That is a lot of PV


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## Floydian (Apr 11, 2015)

Como said:


> That is a lot of PV



Indeed, and I would only consider PV down the road if/when founds allow and if the numbers pan out.

For now though, energy upgrades, mini splits and a wood stove could make for a much more manageable heating situation. Plus some super efficient AC for those muggy days that will be here shortly.

The latest greatest mini splits are so efficient that they're definitely worth considering. A seasonal COP of 4+ is very possible in the piedmont of NC.

And a couple cords in a wood stove in the coldest weather could be a much better introduction to wood burning than trying to manage 6 or 8 cords year. 

Noah


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## dspoon19 (Apr 12, 2015)

Hello BG. I am a newbie as well. Just went thru my first winter heating with a boiler and feel I can share some knowledge now in confidence. 

First off I am in northern ohio and we had the coldest winter here since 1976 I think. Temps for weeks on end struggled to break 0 and wind chills in my area were down to -40 at times. 

I am heating a well insulated 2200 sq ft ranch with a full 2200 sq foot basement. I have a lot of glass, 16' vaulted ceilings with way too many can lights. House is in an open field where most winter days winds are 20+ mph. 

Last fall I ended up installing a portage and main ml25 conventional owb about 40' from my basement. 100 gallons of capacity, forced air system with propane back up. I did the complete install myself. Everything total took about 25 hours and costs $6500. This cost included boiler, pump, piping, HX, and all the fittings. 

I went through right around 10 cords of wood from October 18 till last Monday. 

I saved around 5200 dollars in propane this season. 

Things I've learned:  get a gassification furnace if you can, prepare your wood ASAP and keep it near boiler, get the absolute smallest furnace you can get away with, don't skimp on piping, keep up on maintenance. 

Woodburning no matter how u do it will be work but you will feel so much more accomplished at the end of the year!  And you will have saved a lot of money!


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## Como (Apr 13, 2015)

Suggests $5 a gallon, round here it has been less than $2.


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