# Some smoke in stove is normal right?



## steveg_nh (Dec 12, 2014)

I know a proper burning fire is very important. I would say I have far from a lazy flame, and not one that looks like a torch either. My measured draft is perfect, but when running on the highest setting, 5, I do get one large swirl of smoke on the left side of the firebox, that is promptly evacuated by the exhaust and out. 

I assume this is normal, given the size of the fire and the HOT cubex pellets. This thing roars on 5, so I don't see how you could not have any smoke in there. Even the fire itself reaches the top of the inside, and rolls off to both sides. Just checking with those that know more than me. Here's a picture, although it's hard to see the smoke on the left, but you can easily see the fire quality.

Thanks!


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## TimfromMA (Dec 12, 2014)

As long as you don't have smoke in the house, I wouldn't worry about it.


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## Wilbur Feral (Dec 12, 2014)

So not knowing Enviro's my only question is whether you lose efficiency when on highest setting.  With my Quad, if the flame extends much beyond just touching the exchanger the heat output is not dramatically increased even though the flame is larger, roars more, and consumes far more pellets.  The flame may be less efficient than on a lower setting, though.  I wonder if that's part of the issue, and what would happen with a lower serting?


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## tjnamtiw (Dec 12, 2014)

My question is are you overfiring the stove and going to warp it or burn it out?  What does your manual say the height of the flame should be on the maximum setting? Quads call for 4-6"  high flame on HIGH and we adjust feed accordingly.  It sure looks like you need to be making some adjustments.

Also, you shouldn't be getting any smoke, especially smoke you can see coming out your exhaust.


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## Ranger72 (Dec 12, 2014)

Also try different brand pellets. When I went through a ton of NEWP last season, ps not a fan, I would get some trace amounts of smoke here and there. Nothing major, just as the steveg_nh described.


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## bcarton (Dec 12, 2014)

I think a lot of us new owners have questions about what the stove should look like at it's highest output, and how hot one can safely run it.  I have an old Enviro, and on full "Red Zone" mode with the Dial-a-Fire all the way up it looks scarier than hell. The flames stop just short of blasting the heat exchanger, but man o man that is a lot of fire.  Dwyer gauge shows a perfect -.12 draft at full tilt.  I still haven't dared to run it for more than 6 or 7 minutes like that. No smoke, just a huge blast of flame.  If that was my old wood stove doing that, I would prepare for evacuation, with the phone already dialed 9-1...  but with pellets I just turn it back down.  I'm not at all sure that in southern NH, it would ever get cold enough for me to want to run it that high.


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## steveg_nh (Dec 12, 2014)

Interesting posts, thanks guys. I find that on setting 4, a step down, the flame just barely touched the top, but the output is reduced enough that the stove can't always keep up when the temps are colder. So there is definitely an increase in heat output when on 5. But I certainly don't want to overfire or warp anything, but I would think, since I've done nothing unusual to get it like this, that if it was that easy to do and cause a problem, that a lot of people would be having a problem. I would like to find a video of ire size on setting 5. I'll have to check out the enviro videos.


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## steveg_nh (Dec 12, 2014)

Now this is weird. I just looked over and saw the side of the stove just to the left of the back plate with glowing embers. Not sure what was going on I shut the stove off. It looks like embers burning on the back. And I noticed the sides are black ash. It's not thick or anything but black.I just lightly rubbed it and you can see the path the scraper left. Came off like nothing. This pic kind of shows it. I'll clean the stove good this morning but given good draft and flame am I having some other issue? Or is it ok to see some glowing stuff settling here and there?


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## BrotherBart (Dec 12, 2014)

Looks like an air leak to me.


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## steveg_nh (Dec 13, 2014)

In the firebox? The vent? This is all pretty new to me. Just had the stove put in in October...Leaning like drinking from a firehose. If I had a leak, wouldn't my draft measurement be way off?


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## steveg_nh (Dec 13, 2014)

I also just noticed that the soot on the glass is much more white than chocolate brown like it was recently. Perhaps I should double check my draft/damper again. When I cleaned it the other night I accidentally hit the damper slider and opened it way up. But I checked it afterward when it was hot. Maybe I screwed up. Don't think so but easy enough to check again.


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## Bridgeman (Dec 13, 2014)

Smoke is normal on startup only. Pellet stoves should not smoke at any setting. Smoke indicates incomplete combustion for some reason. I would think an air leak would be the most common cause but I'm not a technician. I would think a pile of smoldering pellets outside if the burn pot air flow would smoke too. The pellets should be burning in the burn pot only. Are you over feeding pellets so they drop out of the pot before they are fully burned?


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## steveg_nh (Dec 13, 2014)

It actually wasn't pellets outside the burn pot, but just some something smoldering on the wall in the back. I'm going to give it a good cleaning this morning and check it again.

How do you check for an air leak? I have a one piece SS liner to the top of the chimney. The only connection poiints on the exhaust would where the vent connects to the exhaust port of the M66 frame. Or is that not even what you guys are taking about? Maybe a door seal or something like that?

Thanks for helping me.


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## steveg_nh (Dec 13, 2014)

Well, I'm wondering if it was just too dirty. All burn pot holes in the bottom were clogged, as was the liner. I could have sworn I cleaning it Tuesday, but my wife said it was this past Sunday...Not good. I need to start writing it down. It looks good now, but it just fired up. I'm going to recheck the damper, and then keep an eye on it. I am curious then, with a potential air leak, where you are looking for that. I am now thinking that's more door seals and stuff like that vs exhaust.

Interesting too, the white soot on the glass literally wiped right off. No elbow grease or anything else needed.


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## tjnamtiw (Dec 13, 2014)

Since you were getting smoke and incomplete combustion, that was probably creosote building up and then went you went to 'balls to the wall' setting, the extra heat burned off the creosote IMHO.  When I burn my stove on low, I'll sometimes see creosote on the last half of the heat exchanger tubes.  Turning it up to HIGH for 1/2 hour or so burns it off and we're back to grey ash.


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## steveg_nh (Dec 13, 2014)

It ran a long time yesterday on low, given that it wasn't that cold out here. It's on a tstat. No heat calling, runs on setting 1 (low), calling for heat, runs on 5.

Looking at it now, I feel like there's still some smoke, and the black ash is quickly building up on the sides already. I wish I could post an actual video of the burn. Actually, I can, I'll post a link from my website shortly.


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## steveg_nh (Dec 13, 2014)

Here's a couple of quick videos. I can play them fine in VLC player and MediaMonkey, but for some reason, when you just try to stream it, it says it's corrupt. Might be because my site isn't configured for streaming. So just download it and watch it. Windows Media Player, for some stupid reason too, only plays the audio track, not the video...grr. If no one can get it to work, I can try another converter later.

http://www.sixsyllables.com/webpics/IMG_1730.mp4
http://www.sixsyllables.com/webpics/IMG_1731.mp4

Also, I just checked the damper, and it was a bit off. 0.14" WC. It's around 0.16" now, but can't imagine that made that much of a difference. 

Thanks


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## Golfeur (Dec 13, 2014)

the videos here well for me


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## bcarton (Dec 13, 2014)

I had black ash building up on the sides of my old Enviro EF2. Finally just opened the damper 1/4" and it's all gray now.  The magnehelic guage was spot on when running at high, and real close at medium to medium low. The book does say that "some fuels may require higher or lower settings." If you're getting black ash, you're got getting enough air.

If you haven't done so already, I would suggest you read this: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...lazy-and-or-getting-smoke-in-the-house.11413/


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## tjnamtiw (Dec 13, 2014)

It's very interesting to see how other brands of stove burn.  Your flame pattern is TOTALLY different than my Quads'.  In my stove, most of the burning is done INTENSELY in the burn pot with a swirling blue flame and some yellow flame escaping several inches out of the pot.  I was quite surprised to see the two 'streams' of flame coming straight up and curling off of the top plate with little intensity.  I have no idea if that's normal or not.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 13, 2014)

How many bags have you put through the stove?  

Have you inadvertently disturbed the damper?

Is the damper properly placed and any control linkages properly connected? 

How do you clean your stove?

Have you changed any of the trim controls on the stoves controller?

Have you had any loss of power to the stove?

Did you write down all of your stove settings once the stove was installed and placed in operation?

Please describe the vent and air intake setup.

M55 s had a bit of an issue with overfiring, there were two things added IIRC a higher capacity convection blower and a feed reducer plate for the auger.


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## chken (Dec 13, 2014)

There should be no smoke except at startup when the fire is not very hot. If you get smoke later, it could be something in the pellet itself that is not combusting well. Black soot on the sidewall indicates not a hot burn. White ash that is easy to wipe off on the glass is a good sign that indicates a hot burn.

So, you've got some contradictory stuff going on, though, it could be the black soot was earlier, and the white was later when you adjusted things.

As for the vids, the first one seems to show a big fire that's a little too big, the flames can lick the top, but shouldn't necessarily be bent over, except for brief moments. The stove could be running just fine, with the right amount of air, but perhaps the pellet size is small meaning that there's more fuel dropping into the grate than normal. More fuel, lots of air can equal a big fire.

Also, the first vid seems to show a nice active flame on the right, but a lazier flame on the left side. Something is going on on that side.


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## chken (Dec 13, 2014)

On that setting, how quickly are you going thru a bag of pellets, because you may be above spec, i.e. you're burning faster than the stove is rated for. The only way to know for sure is to determine how fast you are going thru a bag. My 47k btu stove is rated to go thru a bag in 7 hrs on its highest setting.


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## steveg_nh (Dec 13, 2014)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> How many bags have you put through the stove?
> Have you inadvertently disturbed the damper?
> Is the damper properly placed and any control linkages properly connected?
> How do you clean your stove?
> ...



Have you inadvertently disturbed the damper? I just rechecked it with a magnahelic gauge. It's spot on now. 0.16" WC.
Is the damper properly placed and any control linkages properly connected? Yes, as far as I can tell.
How do you clean your stove? Every 3 days or so I clean it all out with an ash vac, and once a week I go further and pull the back of the firebox off, etc, and do a deep cleaning.
Have you changed any of the trim controls on the stoves controller? They are all set to the default of mid, 3.
Have you had any loss of power to the stove? Nope, none noticed. She throws HEAT!
Did you write down all of your stove settings once the stove was installed and placed in operation? Pretty much, and everything is as is. I did just switch from a pallet of Maine's Choice to Cubex, and the Cubex definitely are cut up smaller. Maybe overfeeding.
Please describe the vent and air intake setup. 4" SS flex Chimney pipe straight from the vent connection on the M55 frame straight up 25' to the top of masonry chimney. Full SS cap on top of 3 flue chimney. So all vertical venting.



chken said:


> There should be no smoke except at startup when the fire is not very hot. If you get smoke later, it could be something in the pellet itself that is not combusting well. Black soot on the sidewall indicates not a hot burn. White ash that is easy to wipe off on the glass is a good sign that indicates a hot burn.
> 
> So, you've got some contradictory stuff going on, though, it could be the black soot was earlier, and the white was later when you adjusted things.
> 
> ...



I think you're on to something with pellet size. The Cubex pellets are cut up much smaller than the Maine's Choice I was using. I bet I'm overfeeding. 

I'll cut the feed trim down to 1 from 3. I'm also going to increase the air combustion trim from the default of 3 to 5, which will add more air. I'll see what that does...

The white ash was on the glass, the black on the sides and top. I think I know how I got the ember deposits on the back side, and it was from the curling flame. And as for the fire have two sides and nothing in the middle, that was just at that time...a bunch of pellets had just dumped and they were in the middle...usually the whole thing is solid. I agree the fire seems too big though.



chken said:


> On that setting, how quickly are you going thru a bag of pellets, because you may be above spec, i.e. you're burning faster than the stove is rated for. The only way to know for sure is to determine how fast you are going thru a bag. My 47k btu stove is rated to go thru a bag in 7 hrs on its highest setting.



I got through a bag about every 8 hrs if I run on 5 with no tstat intervening. With the tstat controlling it, I'm averaging about 2 bags a day. House is 3700 sq ft, open concept, so the stove is heating the whole thing to about 72 degrees.


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## steveg_nh (Dec 13, 2014)

bcarton said:


> I had black ash building up on the sides of my old Enviro EF2. Finally just opened the damper 1/4" and it's all gray now.  The magnehelic guage was spot on when running at high, and real close at medium to medium low. The book does say that "some fuels may require higher or lower settings." If you're getting black ash, you're got getting enough air.
> 
> If you haven't done so already, I would suggest you read this: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...lazy-and-or-getting-smoke-in-the-house.11413/



If I open the damper up a bit more, WC will go to about .20". Maybe these Cubex needs more air...they are HOT pellets for sure.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 13, 2014)

Ok, so no OAK, everything at default, small pellets, on high firing rate, in a stove that has been known to generate more BTUs then it maybe should.

It may be outside just the trim ability on your stove so I would check for the existence of any changes that came out after your stove was produced, the dealer should be aware of them.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 13, 2014)

steveg_nh said:


> If I open the damper up a bit more, WC will go to about .20". Maybe these Cubex needs more air...they are HOT pellets for sure.



Cubex are very dense and in general require more air and when properly burned they produce a lot of heat.


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## steveg_nh (Dec 13, 2014)

Correct, no OAK. Stove was manufactured April 2014, so not sure much has changed. I certainly can ask the dealer though. But I will say, this behavior is since the Cubex. I'm maybe 10 bags in with Cubex.

So I wonder if just the air trim adjustment for Cubex won't be enough...Here's two more videos. I waited a little between them so you could see the flame at different feed points (some pellets just dropped vs waiting for the next drop). Air Trim is now 5, feed trim is 1. Still a weaker right side, but wonder if that's just how the pellets are falling and piling up in the burn pot. Fuel type is set to premium pellets, so the auger only turns once every 30 min...

http://www.sixsyllables.com/webpics/IMG_1737.mp4
http://www.sixsyllables.com/webpics/IMG_1739.mp4


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## corkman (Dec 13, 2014)

Hi steve.i have a vistaflame vf55 freestanding stove which is very similar to yours.i just looked at your vids and that is what im dealing with also only mine is doing this on heat  level 4.i m running on tstat usually on heat 3,feed trim 1 and air trim 5 and burning somersets which are also a very dense pellet.if i stay on these setting all is good.however if i bump up to heat level 4 i get the big robust flame like you do with smoke in the stove and black smoke exiting the chimney.since i cant make anymore adjustments on the board my next move will be to adjust the auger cover down to reduce the pellet feed.i removed the auger cover plate when i got the stove but i have 2 ton somersets and i ton barefoot to burn still so im gonna re-install the auger cover plate and reduce pellet feed that wat.i'll keep you posted on the results.peace,Corkman


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 13, 2014)

steveg_nh said:


> Correct, no OAK. Stove was manufacturer April 2014, so not sure much has changed. I certainly can ask the dealer though. But I will say, this behavior is since the Cubex. I'm maybe 10 bags in with Cubex.
> 
> So I wonder if just the air trim adjustment for Cubex won't be enough...Here's two more videos. I waited a little between them so you could see the flame at different feed points (some pellets just dropped vs waiting for the next drop). Air Trim is now 5, feed trim is 1. Still a weaker right side, but wonder if that's just how the pellets are falling and piling up in the burn pot. Fuel type is set to premium pellets, so the auger only turns once every 30 min...
> 
> ...




Likely that stove is up to date on things, does it have an adjustable auger cover?   That is to say does the cover have more than one way it can be attached or an adjustment mechanism?  You'll have to look under the pellets in the hopper to see.    I also know that a lot of people discovered that the indoor air they had was a little on the stale side and got a much better burn after they set up an OAK, I'm not saying that is the case here but keep it in mind.

The M55 burn engine is inside a lot of "different" brands of pellet roasters.


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## CaptSpiff (Dec 13, 2014)

steveg_nh said:


> ...
> 
> http://www.sixsyllables.com/webpics/IMG_1737.mp4
> http://www.sixsyllables.com/webpics/IMG_1739.mp4



Is the presence of flame outside the burn pot (lower left when viewing) normal?


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 13, 2014)

CaptSpiff said:


> Is the presence of flame outside the burn pot (lower left when viewing) normal?



In his case yes, there is a stirrer operating that unit can burn some really atrocious fuels.


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## Skier76 (Dec 13, 2014)

I occasionally have that outside the burnpot flame on the left side of my stove as well. 

Steve,
The first two videos: The flame looks a bit tall compared to what I see on my stove.  What setting where you on? I'm certainly not an expert, but it almost looks like it's running a little lean on the air. The second set of vids looked more like what my stove burns at. 

I find my stove has a bit of a left side bias; the flame tends to be taller on that side of the firebox. As mentioned above, I do get a bit of a flame outside of the pot on the left at times. The glass on the right hand top of my stove glass tends to darken first. I have a log kit in there now; that may be part of the cause. 

I can't remember, are you running a t-stat? I talked to the tech at the stove shop I bought the stove from. He wasn't a fan of running the stove on 1...which is what the stove will go into when the t-stat stops calling for heat and it's set on high/low. I have mine hooked up to a t-stat (just hooked up a wifi....I'll post a thread on that later) and it'll cycle throughout the day. If I know the stove has been cycling during the day, I'll crank it up to 4 or 5 in the evening. I've been burning wood for 5+ years at our weekend place in Southern VT and I like to run that stove at 400F+ to keep the creosote down. Wood burns in cycles, so I don't get too worried about it coaling down and dropping under 400F. Anyways, I figure a good blast of heat every so often will only help things with the pellet stove.


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## chken (Dec 13, 2014)

steveg_nh said:


> Correct, no OAK. Stove was manufacturer April 2014, so not sure much has changed. I certainly can ask the dealer though. But I will say, this behavior is since the Cubex. I'm maybe 10 bags in with Cubex.
> 
> So I wonder if just the air trim adjustment for Cubex won't be enough...Here's two more videos. I waited a little between them so you could see the flame at different feed points (some pellets just dropped vs waiting for the next drop). Air Trim is now 5, feed trim is 1. Still a weaker right side, but wonder if that's just how the pellets are falling and piling up in the burn pot. Fuel type is set to premium pellets, so the auger only turns once every 30 min...
> 
> ...


That looks much better to my eye. In particular the first one. The second one is getting just a little tall, but seems okay to me.

I know you've got the manometer. In general, if you change pellets to a different brand with a different tree species, be prepared to have to tweak your settings a little.


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## steveg_nh (Dec 13, 2014)

Thanks all.

The burn on the left side of the firepot happens once and a wihle. It seems like some pellets build up and are pushed to the side a bit when the auger in the firepot turns. They usually burn away once it's been going and stays that way. It's usually only on an ignite from off (when it dumps pellets in to start it up) or when it goes to heat from not calling from heat (when it cranks up the pellet dumping)...

I am using a tstat too, a Skytech 5301p.

So I suppose I could open up the damper to let more air in, but that would raise (or would it be lower) my WC draft reading to about .20" from the recommended 0.17". Is that ok to do? Is that all you do to increase air?

As for no OAK, very true, but the fireplace cleanout is literally right under the stove, and we use to get drafts in the fireplace, so I'm guessing even without an actual vent installed, it's getting good air.

The question really is, am I actually ok then, or should I be adding air?

Thanks for all the help guys, seriously...learning every day, but I like to tinker, so it's a good thing.

Only other thing to note, when I run on setting 4, the flame barely hits the top, but I've found that on those cold nights, for the stove to keep up and maintain in sub 20 degrees, I need setting 5 vs 4...so I've been just running on 5...


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 14, 2014)

You might discover what a lot of folk with the good sized pellet roasters have discovered, the setting on a dwyer is all about air pressure differences and not about oxygen content of the air and that their units burn better and that usually means hotter and in cases where they were having trouble or could not get a good setup on the meter, well things improved there as well because they got the burn system out of the inside the negative pressure in the stove room.

Not saying you have a negative pressure inside the stove room but you could have and not know it.  Likewise everything that has a flame (gas cook stoves, candles, the old oil monster, gas water heaters) and even none flame users of oxygen such as people type critters, family pets, and so forth use it and replace it with that much maligned plant food CO2.


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## ohbix (Dec 14, 2014)

comparing your most recent video to the youtube flame characteristics enviro video, yours looks fine.  Might even been a tad lighter than the enviro vid flame.  I'd be curious to see your flame on levels 1 or 2.


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## steveg_nh (Jan 6, 2015)

I'm still struggling to get this right...When the damper is adjusted so the WC reads within the recommended range, I have a huge curling fire with smoke. To me it looks lazy though, but maybe I don't know what I'm really looking at. I closed the damper quite a bit (I need to get my gauge out), and the smoke has been greatly reduced, the flame is more "full" and not curling as much as it hits the heat exchanger. But no idea what my WC reading is. I need to check. What is the right balance...meaning, you get the flame right, but the air draft isn't in spec...or vice versa...

And when the damper is right, and I have the large flame that curls with some smoke, I still collect a thick black ash on the walls of the stove...It comes off easy, but it just doesn't seem right.

Should I still post videos of flame patterns 1 and 2?


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## ohbix (Jan 6, 2015)

Yes, please post videos.  Also what was your heat level on the earlier vids?  I have a straight out vent and OAK, and w/ damper fully closed still can't get less neg. than  -0.20 in (using manometer vs magnehelic).


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## Skier76 (Jan 6, 2015)

I'm still tweaking mine too Steve. I opened my damper earlier this week and feel the burn is cleaner. I'm going to order a mag soon and see what that says.  Who knows, using sight vs the instrument may proove more effective.


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## Bill L (Jan 6, 2015)

The second set of videos look pretty much like my stove on 5. The flame leakage under the left side of the burn pot is normal.  The first set of videos looked like a poor burn, the flame curling over on the left had orange tips and that is where the soot was coming from. Not sure why your vacuum reading is off spec for the good burn, but I would go with it and not get excited about it. If you are not tripping your hi heat limit switch you should be good.


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## chken (Jan 6, 2015)

I feel that setting the Magnahelic to factory spec is the starting point, then tune to suit your eye.


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## steveg_nh (Jan 8, 2015)

I will get some new videos posted, but just was outside. It's -2 here right now and stove has been cranking. I can't believe it held the whole house to 66 and the room where it's located at 68. Impressive. Anyway, I had dark gray/black soot coming out of the top of the chimney. Definitely dirty. I'll open the damper a touch and see.


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## steveg_nh (Jan 8, 2015)

Made a change, opened it maybe another 20%. No change really in flame or smoke out of chimney. Will give it a few minutes.


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## steveg_nh (Jan 8, 2015)

It's now a light gray smoke out of the chimney (not black), and less than before. Flame in the box looks like same though...hmmm


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## NYBurner (Jan 8, 2015)

Hey Steve,
  I have a M55c insert as well, and had a similar issue to you.  We set the fire initially with the Mag and I noticed the glass sooted black very quickly.  I opened my damper sightly and it cleared that issue up.  With my feed trim turned down my fire is almost non existent so I've been running with feed trim on 5.  Now with the cold snap in temp outside I've also had to start running my stove on Heat setting 5.  Ive also noticed that I have have to run the air trim on 5 and damper wide open as well.

  As Smokey mentioned this may be some issue with having no OAK installed..we will see.  Every place I spoke with around my area recommended no OAK.....now Im thinking I may need it?

 Your second set of videos is more in line with how mine looks.  With feed and combustion air trims on 5 and heat on 5 with the damper open, the fire is about a 12-14" jet flaw and very pale yellow, near white.  Its like looking in a flashlight and then looking away you get the blurs in your vision.  Its still not particularly over hot though as other owners have commented.

  I believe a lot of the discrepancy is from pre-baffle plate owners to the newer unit with baffle plates....and perhaps inconsistency with how they were installed from the factory as everyone seems to have different flame heights and trim adjustments.  I believe i need to open mine up slightly to allow more pellets as with feed trim at 3 my flaw is very small....or fluctuates size significantly.


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## Bill L (Jan 8, 2015)

I had my dealer open the auger plate cover a notch a week after the install. I was having problems keeping the flame up initially, but that problem was actually due to a thermostat switch issue. I never moved it back, and usually run at 3 on both feed and comb trim at the factory spec. If you're maxing out the trim you might try opening the cover a little


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## bcarton (Jan 8, 2015)

Steve,  

I'm a novice here too, but I have yet to see any smoke at all coming out of my vent - just convection waves. Not sure where in southern NH you're located, but a call to an experienced, certified tech might be a good investment.  A 55K BTU stove would make my whole first floor unbearably warm, even last night.  I hope you get it sorted out, energy costs here in NH are just about the highest in the nation, regardless of what you use.

Brian


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## steveg_nh (Jan 9, 2015)

Thanks guys. I guess I can open the damper more and see what happens. I was shocked to actually find some soot droppings on my deck (chimney is next to deck, with top of stack being about 25' higher than deck).

I have to run my feed trim on 1 with the cubex pellets I'm putting through right now. The stove looks great on heat setting 4. When I go to 5, it's when I feel like all hell breaks loose. The dark black, sticky ash left behind in the firebox tells me this is a very dirty burn. I wonder if I should turn down the auger feed in the back (slide the stove out). Thing is on heat setting 1, I think the fire might go out...as it's not very big at all when on setting 1.

NYBurner, after you made your adjustments with damper wide open, did you recheck draft with a mag? If so, I'm curious what it was. And I too was told No Oak needed/wanted by 3 people. Weird. Maybe they just don't want to deal with installing it?

And as I understand it, the damper is the exhaust of the stove, not the actual combustion air, right? Does opening the damper really affect combustion? The air intake, where the OAK would install, if you had one, affects air for combustion right? If you don't have one, that isn't blocked off (the intake vent) right, it is just open but not connected to anything?


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## NYBurner (Jan 9, 2015)

Hey Steve - I believe you are correct, the damper is exhaust flow.  The Combustion intake is not restricted with no OAK.  I have not re-checked with a mag gauge, I've been using the method linked by bcarton.  I opened the damper until I see no more black "wisps"......which seems a little independent of combustion of air trim.  

Im still thinking of opening my auger restricter plate up one notch to get more heat out as suggested in another post by flynfrfun here:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/enviro-m55-cast-fs-flame-pattern.92422/

Currently my unit pumps decent heat on 3, but in the single digit cold I have to run it in 5 all of the time.  I believe its more the difference of those with adjusted or no restricter plate that we see comments of never having to run above heat setting 3.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 9, 2015)

The damper effects the combustion air flow through the stove, it is on the intake side of the combustion blower.   

You never place a restriction in the exhaust side of a pellet roaster. 

Get thee to an OAKery and give that poor stove some oxygen laden air, the flame will get brighter, the smoke will be gone, and the heat output will go up.


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## steveg_nh (Jan 10, 2015)

NYBurner said:


> Hey Steve - I believe you are correct, the damper is exhaust flow.  The Combustion intake is not restricted with no OAK.  I have not re-checked with a mag gauge, I've been using the method linked by bcarton.  I opened the damper until I see no more black "wisps"......which seems a little independent of combustion of air trim.
> 
> Im still thinking of opening my auger restricter plate up one notch to get more heat out as suggested in another post by flynfrfun here:
> https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/enviro-m55-cast-fs-flame-pattern.92422/
> ...



I have to run on heat 5 in single digits too. Not as much for flame size but rather for the higher fan speed. 

So on the damper I don't see how changing the exhaust air flow (damper) affects combustion. Hmmm


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## steveg_nh (Jan 10, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> The damper effects the combustion air flow through the stove, it is on the intake side of the combustion blower.
> 
> You never place a restriction in the exhaust side of a pellet roaster.
> 
> Get thee to an OAKery and give that poor stove some oxygen laden air, the flame will get brighter, the smoke will be gone, and the heat output will go up.



Thanks. Makes sense. One thing too I'm noticing is I think I maynot be keeping it clean enough. In this colds days I likely need to clean it every other day vs what I've been doing. With the ash and stuff the air isn't moving well as it piles up in the burn pot.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 10, 2015)

steveg_nh said:


> Thanks. Makes sense. One thing too I'm noticing is I think I maynot be keeping it clean enough. In this colds days I likely need to clean it every other day vs what I've been doing. With the ash and stuff the air isn't moving well as it piles up in the burn pot.



Whenever you attempt to set a flame or dealing with what appears to be a lazy one you need to start with a deep cleaning.  80 percent of all issues with a pellet stove is crud in the works.


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## Skier76 (Jan 10, 2015)

NYBurner said:


> Hey Steve - I believe you are correct, the damper is exhaust flow.  The Combustion intake is not restricted with no OAK.  I have not re-checked with a mag gauge, I've been using the method linked by bcarton.  I opened the damper until I see no more black "wisps"......which seems a little independent of combustion of air trim.
> 
> Im still thinking of opening my auger restricter plate up one notch to get more heat out as suggested in another post by flynfrfun here:
> https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/enviro-m55-cast-fs-flame-pattern.92422/
> ...




That's a very interesting read. It's motivating me to get some service rails and adjust my auger cover. I imagine it's going to use more pellets, but the fan setting will be lower. 

Steve,
I clean my stove once a week and that seems to be enough. I give it a pretty good cleaning: Full scrape of the burn put and I run through the entire firebox with an old paint brush and my ash vac.

I sometimes notice an ash bridge on the sides of my burnpot when I'm running the stove on 4 or 5 for a long period of time. I just open the stove door and use the tool that came with it to knock the ash into the pan a bit. Wear gloves! It's toasty.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 10, 2015)

steveg_nh said:


> I have to run on heat 5 in single digits too. Not as much for flame size but rather for the higher fan speed.
> 
> So on the damper I don't see how changing the exhaust air flow (damper) affects combustion. Hmmm



The damper is on the input side of the combustion blower it changes the volume of air that can pulled through the firebox it makes the straw smaller.or larger.

You want the proper volume of so called air to go with the fuel that is being fed, what everyone thinks is air flow in this case is actually Oxygen which is where an OAK comes in.  Indoor air has less per unit volume than outside air.

The fire doesn't need the CO2 in the air, it doesn't need the N in the air, it needs the O2 in the air.


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## chken (Jan 10, 2015)

steveg_nh said:


> Thanks. Makes sense. One thing too I'm noticing is I think I maynot be keeping it clean enough. In this colds days I likely need to clean it every other day vs what I've been doing. With the ash and stuff the air isn't moving well as it piles up in the burn pot.


You will know your cleaning regimen needs to be upped if the burn quality/appearance changes from when it's first cleaned. If it's the same, then you're fine.


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## NYBurner (Jan 11, 2015)

Hey Smokey - is there a method to run an oak in an existing chimney without drilling through the chimney mortar??  Obviously this would be shared with the exhaust liner as well.


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## Skier76 (Jan 12, 2015)

NYBurner said:


> Hey Smokey - is there a method to run an oak in an existing chimney without drilling through the chimney mortar??  Obviously this would be shared with the exhaust liner as well.




I found this on the site awhile back: http://www.duravent.com/docs/product/PVP_PrairieCap and Increaser_W.pdf 

It's a cap that's a combination intake and exhaust. I'm looking into it for next season on my insert. I would need to run a 3" line from the stove to the new cap I believe.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 12, 2015)

The common method used if you want to OAK an insert is go up the flue with a second pipe (flue has to have the room and the OAK line usually needs to be up-sized from the piping that just fits over the air intake,  The vent run must be high enough to clear the requirements for separation to a powered intake so you don't sucK the spent air from the vent back into the intake system.

Some folks have been known to stick the OAK pipe up the flue and finagle an opening to allow air down around the venting.  There can be sealing issues with either method that will allow the weather in and the heat out.  Proceed with all due care.

Another method puts the OAK in through the fire place ash dump and out the clean out, requires that you have a clean out outside and not in the basement and that you finally clean that ash dump.  Sometimes it isn't too difficult if the clean out is in the basement you just have to get it outside with the proper clearances above ground and snow consideration, this will likely need larger size OAK tubing.


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## steveg_nh (Jan 12, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> The common method used if you want to OAK an insert is go up the flue with a second pipe (flue has to have the room and the OAK line usually needs to be up-sized from the piping that just fits over the air intake,  The vent run must be high enough to clear the requirements for separation to a powered intake so you don't sucK the spent air from the vent back into the intake system.
> 
> Some folks have been known to stick the OAK pipe up the flue and finagle an opening to allow air down around the venting.  There can be sealing issues with either method that will allow the weather in and the heat out.  Proceed with all due care.
> 
> Another method puts the OAK in through the fire place ash dump and out the clean out, requires that you have a clean out outside and not in the basement and that you finally clean that ash dump.  Sometimes it isn't too difficult if the clean out is in the basement you just have to get it outside with the proper clearances above ground and snow consideration, this will likely need larger size OAK tubing.



This would be the option for me if I determine I do need more intake air...


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 12, 2015)

steveg_nh said:


> This would be the option for me if I determine I do need more intake air...



Remember it is the oxygen you really need not just any air will do..


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## NYBurner (Jan 12, 2015)

I called my stove shop today and asked again about the OAK.  Their reason for not suggesting the OAK is that it is drawing in super cold, moist air from outside.  The super cold part doesn't seem relevant to me, but the moisture part...is this something to consider?

By they way I did pull my stove and adjust the auger and as far as I can see, the damper is on the intake of the exhaust compressor on the m55 insert.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 12, 2015)

NYBurner said:


> I called my stove shop today and asked again about the OAK.  Their reason for not suggesting the OAK is that it is drawing in super cold, moist air from outside.  The super cold part doesn't seem relevant to me, but the moisture part...is this something to consider?
> 
> By they way I did pull my stove and adjust the auger and as far as I can see, the damper is on the intake of the exhaust compressor on the m55 insert.



What is the temperature and RH where you are?    

I keep hearing this line, I'm about 18 miles as the crow flies from the Atlantic Ocean and here when it is burn season the absolute humidly let alone relative falls off the chart at times.

  I really have to take a break from reading the screen.  So if I don't respond I'm just resting my eyes (dry eye).


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## steveg_nh (Jan 14, 2015)

I will try to get my videos posted today. Frustrated right now.


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## batchman (Jan 14, 2015)

I have a Maxx-M, which is the same basic design as the M55 and Vistaflame.  I was nervous about my 35' chimney so I mounted a mag for full-time monitoring.  I have found that the flame is the key, as chken says above the gauge is for range of reason.  With different pellets and different feed rates different draft settings are needed for clean burn and correct flame appearance.

And as Smokey says, there is no moisture in outside winter air so I don't understand that oft-repeated comment either.  Capping the OAK properly in the off season would have saved me some scaly surface rust (the better to retain ash!) though.  And I'm with him on the draft control too but will add another dimension to that concept - it also controls how much heat you pass out of the stove and into your exhaust.

So I try to run the minimum draft needed for a heat setting/pellet/feed-rate combo, to get the flame right and keep as much of the heat in the stove as I can.  Small adjustments at a time (and they take a few minutes to "settle in"), and only use the gauge to make sure you're not out in left field.

HTH,
- Jeff


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## steveg_nh (Jan 16, 2015)

I don't get it though. The mag is measuring the exhaust draft though, not intake air, isn't it? 

I'll tell you though - I think I have this somewhat figured out...I'm finishing up burning two tons of Cubex Premium hardwood pellets. One thing I noticed about them is how finely cut up they are, I mean the pieces are small. Maybe 1/4" in size on average...I absoultey believe I was in an overfeed situation...I told my wife to use up the Cubex before we moved on to the 3 tons of Geneva Super Premium hardwoods, well, she was in a rush today and put a bag of the Geneva in. HOLY COW. They say different pellets can create drastically different results - no kidding. Flame size is way more reasonable, just kissing the top, and NO SMOKE. Nice clean hot burn...This is what I recalled when I burned just a couple of these Genevas when we first got them. 

I'm convinced I should have dialed down the auger feed (in the back) for the Cubex...I have the videos of the Cubex, and now I'll grab one of the Genevas. Night and Day.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 16, 2015)

The mag is measuring a pressure difference and that is all.  

You use it to set a starting point by tuning the stove to the vent system.

The trim functions are what you use to adjust the system (stove and vent) to the fuel.

Yes, Cubex is a dense pellet and dense pellets need more *oxygen* or less *fuel* to burn correctly.  

It is very easy to over feed such a pellet if you don't understand that every pellet brand is different and needs to be adjusted for.


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## CleanFire (Jan 17, 2015)

Greetings,

New pellet burner here, so still learning and having fun w/ our stove, but can echo your comments about pellet size and burn - have been burning CleanFire Pacific Blend (Softwood), traded a few bags for Cubex (Hardwood) w/ a co-worker, and thought I broke the stove...  

Had to adjust the stove settings to burn the Cubex pellets correctly - lots of heat and low ash, but different stove settings (combustion air & feed rates) were needed.   

* I learned (2) things this week: experimenting when it is below 10 degrees outside is probably not a good idea (stick with what is working), and experimenting when the Mrs. is not home to 'observe & comment' is a better idea..


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 17, 2015)

CleanFire said:


> Hi Steve,
> 
> New pellet burner here, so still learning and having fun w/ our stove, but can echo your comments about pellet size and burn - have been burning CleanFire Pacific Blend (Softwood), traded a few bags for Cubex (Hardwood) w/ a co-worker, and thought I broke the stove.  ..
> 
> ...



Actually having the Mrs. home might be a very good thing.  

You never know when you might need someone to at least call for the troops, if you make a real blunder, if not actually pick you up and get you to medical care.

Bear looks at paw.


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## CleanFire (Jan 17, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Actually having the Mrs. home might be a very good thing.
> 
> You never know when you might need someone to at least call for the troops, if you make a real blunder, if not actually pick you up and get you to medical care.
> 
> Bear looks at paw.



Excellent point, she keeps me motivated, and safe.  That's what is most important.

OT: Your posts have been a huge help in understanding & getting up-and-running quickly, Greets & Thanks to you, LakeGirl, and the other EcoTeck posters & forum members here too numerous to mention.


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## NYBurner (Jan 31, 2015)

Good point on the humidity Smokey....cold air doesnt hold moisture well.  Will have the OAK installed as soon as possible. 

Also as a note to others with an insert that use a coupler to connect to chimney pipe.  Get foil tape and/or hi temp sealant to make sure it is sealed tight. I removed my backplate and noticed a small wisp of smoke leaking during start up (could faintly smell smoke on start up which prompted my looking) and sealed this up with both sealant and foil tape.  I get a much better draft now which in turn sucks in more combustion air.  I can run less draft open on the slider or up my feed rate now for a hotter burn. Just thought id pass this along.


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## martinstove (Mar 5, 2015)

I also have an M55c insert with the same issue. If I run it on 5, the flame is so tall that it hits the top plate/baffles and curls to the side and even back down - particularly on the left side - resulting in smoke. I haven't run the stove on 5 for a long period of time because of this. Scared to overheat/warp the stove. Even have a little bit of smoke on 4.

Having stove/vent professionally cleaned next week - will see if that makes a difference.


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## steveg_nh (Mar 7, 2015)

So I've been meaning to get back to this. I'm finding it really frustrating. I have videos of all 5 of my flame levels, and you'll see on level 5, as you mention, it's crazy big with smoke. The black soot that cakes on too is crazy. I notice when the stove first starts up on level 5, the flame seems nice but it keeps feeding pellets and then if you look in the burn pot, it just looks like too many, like it's overfeeding and choking the fire from air flow.

I thought maybe my fans or something were really dirty, so I pulled it on the rails last night too, and I found the stove was actually quite clean in the back. Some build up of dust and stuff, but really not bad. I did not clean the vent pipe, but did clean out the exhaust fan opening and the blower fan as best I could (how do you clean that blower fan, it's hard to get at)...

Anyway, flame 5 still got crazy big and smoky within an hr...I also propped open my fireplace clean out a bit to get even more combustion air available and that didn't really help. Anyway, here's the videos. What do you think? Need an OAK? Or do we think it is overfeeding pellets and I should reduce the opening? Thing is, lower flame settings seem fine. I do have the feed trim all the way down right now. I wonder if cutting it down would cause level 1 to actually burn out...

One last thing too, is it normal for the auger rod to wear away in a season? When I cleaned it the other night it really looks like it's way smaller than when new in the middle, like it's disintegrating slowly. Normal or not? And the 1/2 baffle plate seems like it's a bit warped too. See the pic towards the middle...And you can see  how thick the ask is. Almost caked on.

Lots going on, sorry.

http://www.sixsyllables.com/webpics/flame1.mp4
http://www.sixsyllables.com/webpics/flame2.mp4
http://www.sixsyllables.com/webpics/flame3.mp4
http://www.sixsyllables.com/webpics/flame4.mp4
http://www.sixsyllables.com/webpics/flame5.mp4


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## SmokeyTheBear (Mar 7, 2015)

Looks like you need to both lower the fuel feed and up the air.   Read below first however  

Now have you cleaned the exhaust system all the way to the outside of the vent termination?  

This needs to be clean as well as the stove before attempting to make adjustments.  All draft measurements are made on a clean system being fired at level 5 for that stove.  

You may discover that you need a fuel gate installed as part of the auger flight cover if the current one can not be moved down to cover more of the exposed auger at the bottom of the hopper. 

Mag readings are only of a pressure difference and say absolutely nothing about that critical item you really need to burn those pellets (oxygen).

The old mark one eyeball however can tell when the flame is right.


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## steveg_nh (Mar 7, 2015)

I do need to clean my vent. I read that people like the Gardus Sooteater. Yes? I assume it's as easy as doing something to prevent tons of ash from getting into the house (bag over vent pipe or something) and just running the sooteater up the vent to the top with a drill or something.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Mar 7, 2015)

You can use whatever you want to to clean the vent, people have used soot eaters like you mention, some use lint eaters, there are also other methods.  If you use a drill to power the device through the venting make certain it turns in the direction that will tighten the threads at the joints and not loosen them or you can get one stuck where it becomes a problem to get back out.  People use various things to stop what fall down the pipe if you go up from inside and have a really tight seal all around inside the vent pipe not all that much comes down the pipe but you should be prepared for the worst.  Do not forget to get the termination cap clean a lot of crud gets stuck up there.


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## steveg_nh (Mar 8, 2015)

Do you mean run it in the direction so as to tighten the threads of the cleaners tubes so they don't come apart in the vent? You aren't talking about vent joints right? Mine is one continuous piece anyway with no cap on the vent pipe itself because it terminates under a full chimney cap on my 3 flu chimney stack. 

But could a dirty vent cause what I'm seeing in the stove on Level 5? I think no but the advice is don't tune anything until all is clean. Right? 

Now regarding reducing the opening on the auger what about my concern regarding the effect of that on all other heat settings, particularly at level 1 where the flame is already very small? Meaning if I make the opening smaller to cut down on the size of the flame on level 5 could I cause the flame to burn out at level 1?


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## Wilbur Feral (Mar 8, 2015)

steveg_nh said:


> But could a dirty vent cause what I'm seeing in the stove on Level 5? I think no but the advice is don't tune anything until all is clean. Right?



A dirty vent can cause all manner of sooting and poor performance, and the higher the fuel feed rate the more likely it is to occur.  As Smokey notes, it's a matter of oxygen flow, and if that oxygen once used has no place to go (insufficient vent volume due to being dirty) you will have an incomplete burn, sooting, and poor performance.  Clean thoroughly - ENTIRE vent - then start from there.  Anything else is essentially wasted effort.

And btw, I never use a powered vent brush - just manual.  Seems to work fine and has for years now.  Maybe I'll try powering with the drill one year, but has always just seemed like more to go wrong to me, with little additional benefit.  Clean is clean...


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## SmokeyTheBear (Mar 8, 2015)

steveg_nh said:


> Do you mean run it in the direction so as to tighten the threads of the cleaners tubes so they don't come apart in the vent? You aren't talking about vent joints right? Mine is one continuous piece anyway with no cap on the vent pipe itself because it terminates under a full chimney cap on my 3 flu chimney stack.
> 
> But could a dirty vent cause what I'm seeing in the stove on Level 5? I think no but the advice is don't tune anything until all is clean. Right?
> 
> Now regarding reducing the opening on the auger what about my concern regarding the effect of that on all other heat settings, particularly at level 1 where the flame is already very small? Meaning if I make the opening smaller to cut down on the size of the flame on level 5 could I cause the flame to burn out at level 1?



Yes make sure if you use a drill that it turns to tighten the treads of all of the joints in the brush system.

You do what is called for to get that flame under control in a clean system at level 5,  you will very very likely be all set at level 1.

Wilbur Feral told you one thing that a dirty vent does.   

I'll add another since the exhaust gases can't escape as fast as they normally could the air flow past the ignition system is reduced and it is possible that the ignition gets delayed and smoke and wood gas build up in the firebox and when ignition does occur you get a rapidly expanding shock wave (most folks call this an explosion) that can cause gasket-ed parts to part company and other not so nice things as well.


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## chken (Mar 8, 2015)

steveg_nh said:


> Do you mean run it in the direction so as to tighten the threads of the cleaners tubes so they don't come apart in the vent? You aren't talking about vent joints right? Mine is one continuous piece anyway with no cap on the vent pipe itself because it terminates under a full chimney cap on my 3 flu chimney stack.
> 
> But could a dirty vent cause what I'm seeing in the stove on Level 5? I think no but the advice is don't tune anything until all is clean. Right?
> 
> Now regarding reducing the opening on the auger what about my concern regarding the effect of that on all other heat settings, particularly at level 1 where the flame is already very small? Meaning if I make the opening smaller to cut down on the size of the flame on level 5 could I cause the flame to burn out at level 1?


Smokey has you totally covered. As Wilber said, I don't use a power drill when running the lint eater, I just push it thru manually. Before you adjust the air-fuel settings, clean it to a pristine state. Seems obvious, but most people don't. Then adjust to your mfr recs with your manometer. Then adjust by eye to optimum. Just looking at your videos, P5 is just a tad too big and lazy a flame. Too many pellets for the amount of air, but of course, you've got to clean it first to get your true baseline. Could be smallish pellets feeding too fast.

Just to give you an example, I've gone from 7.7secs/12 secs for Blazers to 6.6secs/12secs for FSUs, because the FSUs are tiny pellets and feed far faster than the Blazers. There really is quite a variation.


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## NYBurner (Mar 8, 2015)

Steve,
  From your videos our flames look near identical.  I suspect (as Smokey mentioned) that the stove is feeding more pellet than than I can get enough oxygen in.  I am burning Barefoots and they are rumored (strongly) to feed a slight bit faster than a regular pellet.  Ive noticed this going from Dry Creek/Green Supreme to the Barefoots….flame is much bigger and feeds through 40lbs slightly quicker.
  That being the case…I suspect either an OAK to feed clean cold air will help, and / or ill have to close up my auger cover plate slightly.  Im leaning towards the OAK fixing my problem though…the longer my fire burns at higher levels it will eventually "clean" itself up (to a point).  So I suspect the chimney vent gets hotter pulling more draft…..sucking in more air.


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## steveg_nh (Mar 9, 2015)

Thanks guys good info. I'm going to clean the vent today or tomorrow. What is the recommended brush system? Or does it really not matter that much? Not too much available locally anymore as everyone is moving on to spring supplies now. Thanks.

Update: Just went to Lowe's and picked up the Gardus LintEater and a pack of extensions. Get's me to 24' which should be good. I'll report back after the vent is cleaned. Hopefully I don't make too much of a mess!


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## CleanFire (Mar 9, 2015)

re: mess, if you have an Ash Vac, you'll need it, if not, for us Shop Vac folks, this combo is working excellent here:

*Shop-Vac 9035000 Ultra Web Cartridge Filter*  available on amazon.com

Wrapped with a Clorox brand Reusable Handi Wipe® cloth, held in place w/ velcro straps, or you can use twine, etc. to secure the HandiWipe - it preserves the Cartridge filter / acts as a pre-filter..  Available at most stores..

Hope the cleaning goes well!


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## steveg_nh (Mar 9, 2015)

I did it tonight, with the Linteater. WOW! Great tool, easy too. But boy did I get a lot of junk out of the pipe. I wasn't expecting that. Fans sound good again, and flame looks good. Waiting for the warm up to finish, and I'll check draft, then grab another video on heat setting 5. I do have an ash vac too, the powersmith. Thank goodness. Stuck the vac up with the pipe and it got over 80% of what fell down...almost no mess in the fireplace. It took 27' of rod though, to get up and out of the cap at the top of the chimney...I had to run back out to Lowe's to get one more set of extensions...


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## steveg_nh (Mar 9, 2015)

Boy do I feel silly now! I'm thinking this was all due to a dirty vent pipe as most of you thought it might be. This is my first year with the pellet stove, so I am learning. But after 1 hr and 15 minutes on high (level 5) this is now my flame...MUCH better. Clean and crisp, vibrant (not lazy) and no smoke! And the stove sounds good. It was sounding strange before, like it was groaning. Probably because it was having a hard time exhaling. Flame was choking so it was feeding faster than it was burning, causing a pile up I think.

Boy what a bozo I am! I didn't adjust any feed rates or anything at this point, and mag reading is -0.16. perfect!

What do you guys think? Thank you all so much (if you agree I'm in good shape now)

http://www.sixsyllables.com/webpics/flame5a.mp4


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## chken (Mar 9, 2015)

steveg_nh said:


> Boy do I feel silly now! I'm thinking this was all due to a dirty vent pipe as most of you thought it might be. This is my first year with the pellet stove, so I am learning. But after 1 hr and 15 minutes on high (level 5) this is now my flame...MUCH better. Clean and crisp, vibrant (not lazy) and no smoke! And the stove sounds good. It was sounding strange before, like it was groaning. Probably because it was having a hard time exhaling. Flame was choking so it was feeding faster than it was burning, causing a pile up I think.
> 
> Boy what a bozo I am! I didn't adjust any feed rates or anything at this point, and mag reading is -0.16. perfect!
> 
> ...


Ah, much better, looks like your P4 video from before.


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## steveg_nh (Mar 10, 2015)

Yup! Kind of what it was like originally. I guess I just forgot until I saw it again, that something changed... before the flame wasn't that much bigger 5 vs 4 but the fan ran a lot faster and higher which meant more heat output on 5. I'll have to keep an eye on it to see if the dirty vent really was it, but it sure seems like it.

One thing I do still hear though, is a groaning sound. I thought it was gone with the cleaning last night, but heard it again when the stove was running on low (Tstat not calling for heat). Maybe a bad bearing in one of fan motors? I'll post another video where you can hopefully hear it.


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## Wilbur Feral (Mar 11, 2015)

In addition to cleaning the vent, you must pull the motors and clean them.  Essentially anything in the air path must be cleaned, from the burnpot out.  Have spare gasket ready!

May fix your groaning motors.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Mar 11, 2015)

Groaning check the crud on the agitator/burn pot where the fingers go by or should be going by but might be scrapping instead.


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## steveg_nh (Mar 11, 2015)

Thanks guys. I read about gaskets. Need to get some them before I pull the motors. The exhaust motor seems easy enough to get out, but the combustion seems a bit more complicated. Maybe I'm just missing something obvious.

The groaning is definitely the motors though, as you can hear it change as RPM changes. Here's a video where you can here the pitchy tone, more so than just air blowing...

http://www.sixsyllables.com/webpics/enviro_groaning.mp4

This is on low right now, as tstat isn't calling. It's not as pronounced when running higher, but it does come and go too, but mostly it's there. This started I'd say about 1 ton of pellets ago.


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## steveg_nh (Mar 11, 2015)

I can only find a reference in the parts manual to a gasket for the combustion blower (exhaust), part 50-2380. No gasket listed for convection blower (the long one). Is there not one there?

And is it just me, or are all Enviro parts ridiculously expensive? $35 for this measly gasket? $135 for the agitator. Yikes! Makes me think I should have explored parts before deciding on an Enviro over a Harman...or is this common to all brands? 

Thanks


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## ohbix (Mar 11, 2015)

Sounds like bearings in one of the fans.  You can determine which fan by starting the stove, then listening for the noise.  The convection fan doesn't come on until the air pump turns off.  Should be replaceable under warranty.  No gasket for the convection fan, and you can remove the exhaust fan from the housing - no gasket there (on the FS M55).


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## steveg_nh (Mar 11, 2015)

Thanks ohbix. Good info. Not sure if it's bearings. I want to clean them really well and then go from there, but that's kind of what I thought it was. 

So you mention removing the exhaust fan from the housing so you don't have to deal with the gasket. I read about that. But you mention that's on the Free Standing, do you know if it applies to the M55 insert too? 

I love knowing how this all works. Takes the worry away, as you can dig in on your own.

(PS: I had another thread going about my cleaning ritual, and some of the info in here and there have overlapped - hope that's ok, didn't mean to clutter up the forums)


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## steveg_nh (Mar 12, 2015)

So just an update. Last night I took the exhaust blower out of the plenum (yup, no gasket) and cleaned it up. Definitely had some soot on it, but not as bad as I thought it would be. I also cleaned up the Proof of Fire switch. I had to remove the whole plate, removing the two screws didn't break the switch free.  No issues with that gasket staying in tact. Plus, it let me clean up a little more in the exhaust tunnel/tube. Next I removed the combustion motor. That was fairly clean as well, more so than the exhaust fan. But spinning it manually, I could hear a scraping sound in the motor. I was thinking "this is my groaning sound when it's running." 

I put it all back together (I took pictures of all wire connections before unplugging) and fired it up. The combustion fan kicks on for a quick second then shuts down while the stove ignites. I quickly heard my noise, then it was gone while the combustion fan was off. As soon as the comb fan turned on, I started hearing it again. Not as loud as before, but you could hear it, and when the stove got faster, the sounds did as well and faster. So combustion fan. Contacted the dealer and they already put a claim in with Enviro for me. They asked for labor too. If Enviro denies labor, sounds like they'll let me do it myself. I'd be kind of pissed at Enviro though, as this stove is only 4.5 months old and was like $4200...But I've read some horror stories. 

They are, however to their credit, at least the dealer is trying, to also get my agitator bar replaced as well under warranty. They didn't feel it should have happened so quickly. 

Thanks everyone for the help. One thing I know is that the stove is very clean right now. I'm sure much more so than it would be if I paid to have it cleaned too. I wonder though, after a bunch of times removing all this stuff, when the screw holes will start to strip out. It's always a fine line when tightening things between tight enough and maybe not tight enough (so give another little crank). LOL. Thanks again for helping me get everything squared away.


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## ohbix (Mar 12, 2015)

Steve, labor will likely be covered.  I purchased a demo M55 from a dealer who has since disappeared.  Had fan trouble.  Contacted Enviro, they gave me the contact info for the regional distributer.  In turn, the rd gave me the name of a good dealer.  Good dealer made the trip, replaced the fans, submitted the warranty claim.  Fans and labor covered.


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## steveg_nh (Mar 12, 2015)

I have a feeling they would cover labor too. Honestly though I'm ok with doing it. Convenience of not needing to be home for a service call. Easy to do. 

One quick question - for those with an M55 insert, upon initial turn on does your combustion fan turn on for a quick sec then off again and stay off until it turns on for good? I think I remember that behavior before I touched it but not positive.


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## steveg_nh (Mar 14, 2015)

Hey guys, one last question - anyone know if the combustion blower (exhaust) runs at a constant speed, regardless of heat level setting? It's obvious that the convection heater runs at different speeds. I'm just trying to be 100% sure the fan noise I'm hearing is coming from the convection heater, a noise which changes pitch and loudness with the speed of the motor. If I now the exhaust blower is constant, then I'm confident it really is the convection blower that is the problem. Would just hate to have diganosed it wrong and have the wrong fan replaced. Thanks.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Mar 15, 2015)

steveg_nh said:


> Hey guys, one last question - anyone know if the combustion blower (exhaust) runs at a constant speed, regardless of heat level setting? It's obvious that the convection heater runs at different speeds. I'm just trying to be 100% sure the fan noise I'm hearing is coming from the convection heater, a noise which changes pitch and loudness with the speed of the motor. If I now the exhaust blower is constant, then I'm confident it really is the convection blower that is the problem. Would just hate to have diganosed it wrong and have the wrong fan replaced. Thanks.




It varies the combustion blower on your stove and a lot of others but not all stoves.


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## steveg_nh (Mar 15, 2015)

Hmm. So hard to know for sure then. 99% sure it's convection blower. When I spun the exhaust blower by hand it was silent. The convection made some scratchy noise. Any way to know for sure? I guess I need to shut it down and listen again closely when it's igniting when combustion blower is the only one running.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Mar 15, 2015)

Mechanics stethoscope.


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## steveg_nh (Mar 15, 2015)

Really? Just to pinpoint location? The noise has subsided a bit it seems, since I cleaned everything up, but I can tell it's still not right.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Mar 15, 2015)

Yes.


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## steveg_nh (Mar 15, 2015)

Very cool. Never seen those before. Thanks. I just turned it off and on though and really paid attention. Exhaust blower alone was nice and smooth and quiet.  It's the convection. As soon as the kicked on, boom. Noise.


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## steveg_nh (Mar 23, 2015)

So this is a bit disheartening...only 10 days later, and I think I'm back where I started. After only burning about a 1/2 ton, maybe less, since 3/12, I noticed last night that the flame on 5 was looking too big and dirty again. I gave the inside of the stove a nice cleaning (not the vent pipe), and fired it back up. This morning, it looks much the same as last night, dirty, and lazy. What the heck. Could the vent need a cleaning after only 1/2 ton? Or is it that even with the clean vent, I still am burning too dirty, and need more air (OAK)? I still have black fly ash, but it vacs right off, so not sure if that's a sign of anything, or just the type of pellet I'm burning (Geneva Super Premium Hardwood). 

Any new advice? I certainly don't want to be cleaning the vent every 1/2-1 ton. 2 tons, sure, but not this soon. Thanks.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Mar 23, 2015)

Well did you really get that stove system cleaned of ash?

Did you get the area between the combustion blower and the area above the burn pot?  The exhaust system starts just above the burn pot and goes around and through the heat exchanger and towards the combustion blower usually via paths down behind the firebox wall frequently both on the right and left hand sides of the stove that come together in the middle and exit towards the combustion blower cavity.

Number of days or tonnage of pellets burned has nothing to do with it.  It is the amount (volume and weight) of ash and where it ends up that is controlling.


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## steveg_nh (Mar 23, 2015)

First, thanks for helping again. 

I'm trying to visualize the area you are talking about. The area just above the burn pot for me is just the firebox liner panel. I cleaned that, and behind it, and the two air tubs that are INSIDE the burn pot itself (one on each side of the igniter tube).

Short of cleaning the whole thing with a toothbrush, I really felt like I cleaned it all very thoroughly. The entire exhaust tube channel, the fans, the entire inside of the stove (including removing the firebox liner, pot, etc,), the heat exchanger tubes (as best I could, hard to get up between them), the vent pipe, etc.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Mar 23, 2015)

steveg_nh said:


> First, thanks for helping again.
> 
> I'm trying to visualize the area you are talking about. The area just above the burn pot for me is just the firebox liner panel. I cleaned that, and behind it, and the two air tubs that are INSIDE the burn pot itself (one on each side of the igniter tube).
> 
> Short of cleaning the whole thing with a toothbrush, I really felt like I cleaned it all very thoroughly. The entire exhaust tube channel, the fans, the entire inside of the stove (including removing the firebox liner, pot, etc,), the heat exchanger tubes (as best I could, hard to get up between them), the vent pipe, etc.




Between the back of the fire box inside wall and the wall on the back of the fire box there are exhaust paths these get ash filled.

There are usually access covers behind whatever is used to be a fake fire bricks.  You have to get into that area when you clean the stove.

Ask yourself where does the exhaust go in order to get out of the stove?

You have to follow that air flow and clean everywhere that the exhaust goes because ash is precipitating out of the air flow everywhere it goes even when it finally gets outside of the vent system.

This usually will involve thumping the firebox wall to knock ash down so you can get it vacuumed out. 

You vacuum, thump and vacuum again, repeated thumping and vacuuming until no more ash drops down. 

I never kid about cleaning.

Think like the combustion air flow, follow in its path and you'll understand what has to be cleaned.

Cleaning the first part and the last part of the combustion air path does not get the stove clean.

Speaking of toothbrushes brass bore brushes can work wonders around the heat exchanger.           .


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## ohbix (Mar 23, 2015)

You may have done so, but did you remove the lower firebox and clean behind that?  It is the piece that surrounds the ignitor and air tubes,  has two rotatable covers over round cutouts, and the fluted liner sits on top of it.  When you remove the lower firebox, you expose the opening to the exhaust fan, and your damper.  I open my damper all the way, then brush and vacuum out the POF sensor and channel.  Also use a bottle brush and push laterally under and diagonally between the ignitor and air tubes.  A lot of ash collects around those tubes.  What I like about the M55 is that one can  expose the entire air pathway, from air tubes to exhaust pipe.


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## steveg_nh (Mar 25, 2015)

Ok, smokey, I'm 99% sure I'm following you. And I believe you are referring to the same plate ohbix is referring to, when he talks about cleaning behind the "lower firebox" which has the two rotatable cutouts. If you are referring to something such as that, yes, I always clean there too. When I'm doing a quick clean, I just rotate the cutouts and clean it out. When I'm doing a weekly deeper clean, I remove the actual firebox lower and really clean behind there. I can actually, when it's out, see the sliding damper plate and the exhaust tube right back to the exhaust blower. 

Now what's interesting is that last night, the flame looks good again. No issues. I am wondering that maybe it overfed a bit (smaller bunch of pellets) and I just happened to catch it at that point. I'll watch closely tonight again.

I heard too, that Enviro did ship a replacement convection blower and agitator under warranty, so that's good. But they didn't send/cover (at least not yet) the slightly warped exhaust tube baffle. What are your thoughts on that part and it being a bit bent? Does it even matter really, as long as it slides without issue? 

Thanks


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## SmokeyTheBear (Mar 25, 2015)

steveg_nh said:


> Ok, smokey, I'm 99% sure I'm following you. And I believe you are referring to the same plate ohbix is referring to, when he talks about cleaning behind the "lower firebox" which has the two rotatable cutouts. If you are referring to something such as that, yes, I always clean there too. When I'm doing a quick clean, I just rotate the cutouts and clean it out. When I'm doing a weekly deeper clean, I remove the actual firebox lower and really clean behind there. I can actually, when it's out, see the sliding damper plate and the exhaust tube right back to the exhaust blower.
> 
> Now what's interesting is that last night, the flame looks good again. No issues. I am wondering that maybe it overfed a bit (smaller bunch of pellets) and I just happened to catch it at that point. I'll watch closely tonight again.
> 
> ...



You have to get that entire area all the way to the top of the back of the firebox clean.  This usually requires brush work and/or repeated thumping and vacuuming  and/or the application of a high airflow device.  But since you have an insert and likely don't care to remove the insert to outside or climb up on to the roof ....


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## steveg_nh (Mar 30, 2015)

Right, no easy way to get this thing outside, but easy to at least roll out of the firebox.

When you talk about "the back of the firebox" and thumping, are you talking about something I can't actually see/get to? Meaning, behind the back firebox liner wall, the wall where the hole where the pellets drop through? If so, yes, no easy way to get access behind that back wall, once I remove the liner that protects it (it clips in front of it).


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## SmokeyTheBear (Mar 30, 2015)

steveg_nh said:


> Right, no easy way to get this thing outside, but easy to at least roll out of the firebox.
> 
> When you talk about "the back of the firebox" and thumping, are you talking about something I can't actually see/get to? Meaning, behind the back firebox liner wall, the wall where the hole where the pellets drop through? If so, yes, no easy way to get access behind that back wall, once I remove the liner that protects it (it clips in front of it).



Remember I'm talking stoves in general

Yes, the area behind the firebox's rear inside wall and the true rear wall.  Some stoves only have access ports that make it difficult to really get in there,  Nailed Nailer (who has a 55) made a vacuum cleaner hose adapter so he could get into that area.  Some stoves have two ports when they really need three (older St. Croix units come to mind).  Some stoves actually completely expose this area on both sides and give you a clear shot at getting it clean (mine does remove one screw on each side and have at it) .   Thumping and the use of flexible shafts can go a long way in getting that area clean (as can a high air flow device).


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## steveg_nh (Mar 30, 2015)

Ok yeah, I know what you're talking about on my stove. Yes, I can get into that area. The enviro has two ports, one on each side below the rear firebox liner (which you can remove as well). You can get a hose in there, or just take the piece out altogether.

Once both those pieces are out though, you can't get any further back. I thought you meant further back. Here's an enviro video showing the liner removal and cleaning. 

http://www.youtube.com/embed/y-0I307J56o?rel=0

Is that what you're talking about? I can't get further back than that rear wall once it's removed. 

Also, I put the new convection fan in yesterday. Wow. Finally, that annoying noise is gone. I just hope this one lasts longer than 5 months. And I put the new auger in too. Crazy to see how quickly the original once wore down. I literally could have snapped it in half like a twip in the middle 1/3 of it. Horrible.

Now just waiting to hear on the baffle plate.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Mar 31, 2015)

Nope, just the area behind the firebox wall, that stove exposes the entire area that is normally not exposed, you should even be able to get to the heat exchanger tubes with a brush.   And since you have a cast unit you can't do any thumping anyway.

A new auger or a new agitator?


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## Sootmaster1990 (May 2, 2015)

steveg_nh said:


> Now this is weird. I just looked over and saw the side of the stove just to the left of the back plate with glowing embers. Not sure what was going on I shut the stove off. It looks like embers burning on the back. And I noticed the sides are black ash. It's not thick or anything but black.I just lightly rubbed it and you can see the path the scraper left. Came off like nothing. This pic kind of shows it. I'll clean the stove good this morning but given good draft and flame am I having some other issue? Or is it ok to see some glowing stuff settling here and there?


you are seriouslly overthinking the stove just let it do its thing instead of watching it like a tv


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## steveg_nh (May 4, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Nope, just the area behind the firebox wall, that stove exposes the entire area that is normally not exposed, you should even be able to get to the heat exchanger tubes with a brush.   And since you have a cast unit you can't do any thumping anyway.
> 
> A new auger or a new agitator?


New agitator, sorry. Somehow missed that you posted this a few weeks back. Also, the dealer isntalled the new baffle plate too. I wish I was there to see how he did it.


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## steveg_nh (May 4, 2015)

Sootmaster1990 said:


> you are seriouslly overthinking the stove just let it do its thing instead of watching it like a tv



LOL. I hear you. At the time I posted that I still was seeing new things, as a pellet stove was new for me. Now I have a season under my belt and know what to be looking for...


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