# Direct connect combustion air - Wood Gun E100



## Pontypool (Jan 16, 2014)

I have an E100 AHS Wood Gun, almost ready for first firing.
It is installed in the basement of my house. To minimize cold air in the basement I would like to attach a 5 inch steel cold air duct directly to the wood gun combustion air box. I would do this by first elbowing from the wood gun combustion air box to the basement floor, then up to the floor joints and then travelling between the joints, through the foundation to outside.
Spent combustion gases will exit via a proper bricked chimney with a clay flue, lined with a 6 inch rigid 24 gauge stainless liner.  Connection from cyclone to chimney is 6 inch stainless 24 gauge.

Is this a bad idea, any better suggestions?
pontypool
New Member

*Posts:* 1
*Joined:* Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:02 am
*Other Heating:* wood gun

Private message


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## avc8130 (Jan 16, 2014)

Pontypool said:


> I have an E100 AHS Wood Gun, almost ready for first firing.
> It is installed in the basement of my house. To minimize cold air in the basement I would like to attach a 5 inch steel cold air duct directly to the wood gun combustion air box. I would do this by first elbowing from the wood gun combustion air box to the basement floor, then up to the floor joints and then travelling between the joints, through the foundation to outside.
> Spent combustion gases will exit via a proper bricked chimney with a clay flue, lined with a 6 inch rigid 24 gauge stainless liner.  Connection from cyclone to chimney is 6 inch stainless 24 gauge.
> 
> ...



Go for it.  Lots of guys running the WG use outside combustion air like you are planning.

How about some pics?  

Welcome to the fray.

ac


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## muncybob (Jan 16, 2014)

As ac says, yes it can be done. I have not had a need to do so. Mine sits in an unfinished basement with a window cracked open. Pipe runs to about 6" above the concrete floor. Residual heat loss from the WG keeps the basement comfortable.
 My chimney set up is similar to yours although mine is not the best configuartion as my set up required more horizontal pipe than from cyc;lone to chimney than I would have liked.


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## infinitymike (Jan 16, 2014)

Hi and welcome to the forum.

Your way of piping the combustion air is exactly how they describe it in the WG manual.
I however have it piped the other way they describe in the manual. Mine elbows out of the air intake box and goes down to within 6" of the floor and thats it.
Mine is in my garage and there is more air moving through that leaky old thing then the WG will ever use.

Your chimney connection is fine as well.

Pictures are always a coveted thing here. So please satisfy our desires.

Here come all the questions at once, sorry.
Have you heated with wood before.
What are you heating with the WG
How is the wood supply
How is the wood source
What made you choose the WG
Do you plan on water storage
Whats your dogs name


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## Pontypool (Jan 20, 2014)

Thank you – glad I found this forum – much to be learned and shared from/with my fellow wood burners.
I am contacting AHS today for an updated manual – mine only mentions piping down to the floor.
As it is in my basement and I have heard many utterings about puff-backs I am somewhat paranoid about
the possibility of flame travelling down that air intake in search of air.  ONCE is too many times.
The cold air vent is 5” galv 28 ga round duct, running 7 feet between the joints above the boiler
insulated with ½” foil.  Then it crosses over the boiler (insulated) downward on a 45 degree angle,
then goes down (UNinsulated) to a 5 gallon steel pail directly behind the cyclone.
I will pipe the boiler air intake outward and downward (at about 3” per foot)  for 2 feet then elbow
straight down into the pail beside the fresh air pipe.  These pipes remain unconnected about 4 inches
from the bottom of the pail.  I have installed a sheet metal divider in the pail 8 inches tall from the bottom.
So the effect (in theory) of this is to bring in fresh air, contain it and keep the pipes physically separated.
Fresh air comes in, fills the pail and is sucked up by the air intake on the other side of the divider.
Also I am installing a 5” round horizontal fire damper just above the pail on the air intake.
Overkill, maybe – fire damper is $35.
Also – my manual makes no mention what the high/low aquastat that came with the boiler does, nor is 
there any mention of the start/run switch.  Although I  am fairly sure I know what these do, I would prefer
they just spell it out, just in case I am missing any finer points.
My HVAC consulting guy (a contractor I pay for info & guidance) tells me I should have insulated smoke pipe
(boiler to chimney) as my clearances are closer to 14 inches.  Looking into that today.
I have heated with wood all my life (25 yrs) – but with a forced air wood furnace. It was in the house when I 
bought it but horribly inefficient, poorly setup, and poor ducting.  Installed larger duct, a 2 speed fan, and designed
my own controls using 2 thermostats, auto-switching between them based on motor speed.  The thought being 
one setting for flame burn, another setting for non-flame, less vigorous burning during charcoal stage.  Went from
10+ bush cords in the first year, to 3 -4 bush cords and an 80 degree house (my wife thinks that’s still a little cool). 
But the old wood furnace is over 30 years old – decided to replace it before it fails.  WG stood out for efficiency
and ease of cleaning which translates into less work cutting wood, less dismantling & reassembling.
I have a main loop (with Taco variable speed circ) with 10 zones, all with separate
circulators, doing baseboards, in-floor, fan coils , 2nd building (garage) with fan coil, DHW, retro
under-wood sub floor heating, towel racks, bath tub warmers, a 6 port manifold & relay panel for
small add-ons (not plumbed yet), and a filter zone.  Doing all design & work myself.
Also, designed my own chiller, valves off of the main fan coil and uses cold clean sump water (I pump
8500 gallons of 48 degree water out of my basement every day) to cool the glycol in the closed fan coil loop.
Running glycol in the whole system.  Also designed my own – super slick – glycol make-up.
I have an S-10 pickup, a Stihl 026, a chopping maul and some wedges.  My wife and I spend 3 - 4 days
each fall in the bush cutting, splitting, hauling from live standing trees.  I cut mainly hickory, oak, maple
and let dry in a rack, 2 years ahead – hopefully not going to be a problem with the WG.
I have allowed space for 60 gallon storage, but starting off without that – AHS says it is not necessary.
I will try it for the first year and see how that goes.
My dog??????
Maybe you would do me the kindness of a note with the same info about your system.
Is your garage attached to the house?  Are you storing?
I don’t have many pics but here are a couple of past work in progress.

*§ 
	

		
			
		

		
	





*


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## infinitymike (Jan 20, 2014)

Nice work there.
Especially the part where the wife comes out into the woods and cuts and splits.


I could sit and type all the info or you could go to YouTube and check out all my wood gun videos 
My user name is mike tuto cause I only have 2 toes left after dipping my feet in the shark infested waters
Baahahhaha nah just kidding or maybe I'm not.


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## avc8130 (Jan 20, 2014)

I read that novel...and the thing that stands out the most...

8500 GALLONS PER DAY?  Do you live on an active geyser?

ac


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## infinitymike (Jan 21, 2014)

Just look where he lives.


avc8130 said:


> I read that novel...and the thing that stands out the most...
> 
> 8500 GALLONS PER DAY?  Do you live on an active geyser?
> 
> ac


Just look where he lives...pontyPOOL


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## Pontypool (Jan 21, 2014)

Hey Mike - watched your #3 & #4 videos - very informative for me, gives me a better sense of what to expect when I fire mine - someday.  I noticed your power vent hood is not being used, and it didn't look like any smoke came out when you opened the door - so are those hoods redundant?
Good idea having the thermometer on the smoke pipe - made a note to get myself one of those.
Will be searching for more of your videos - thank you for taking the time to make/post them.
It gives me some confidence seeing yours working - my wife says she will be in the field across the road when I finally light mine.
I have always cursed all that water - wears sumps out pumping 6 gallons every minute 24/7/365.
So - lemons to lemonade - now it gravity powers my chiller, then the spent water goes to a rain barrel so my wife has unlimited water for the gardens & I water the lawn (gravity fed sprinklers) whenever I want - who needs rain?


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## infinitymike (Jan 21, 2014)

Pontypool said:


> Hey Mike - watched your #3 & #4 videos - very informative for me, gives me a better sense of what to expect when I fire mine - someday.  I noticed your power vent hood is not being used, and it didn't look like any smoke came out when you opened the door - so are those hoods redundant?
> Good idea having the thermometer on the smoke pipe - made a note to get myself one of those.
> Will be searching for more of your videos - thank you for taking the time to make/post them.
> It gives me some confidence seeing yours working - my wife says she will be in the field across the road when I finally light mine.
> ...



You are welcome, glad I could be of service.
Give the wife some time, mine has gotten pretty good at taken care of my baby when I'm out at work.
I have since hooked up the smoke hood and it is a big help.
You WILL get smoke even if the fire is out and there is a small bed of coals, as soon as you throw a piece of wood in there you'll create smoke that will try to get out.

Boy I need to shoot more videos, I can't find myself anywhere on you tube.

Here's a quick video I shot today.  Enjoy


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## maple1 (Jan 22, 2014)

Mike, that's a great vid. You're getting good at that.

That box you have your guages in is sweet, with the built in p/s. Sure beats tieing in 8 temp guages to a wall wart and all that wire managing. Mine's still only half done.

I am also having problems comprehending 8000 gallons of sump water a day - wow. That almost sounds like it would make for a really easy & really cheap (realtively speaking) Geothermal application.


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## Pontypool (Jan 22, 2014)

Agreed!  Great video Mike.  That panel is pretty slick.  It is one thing to assume your gasification temp is rising, but quite another to be able to watch it rise by the second.
I can understand how you are getting water temps, but how are you measuring the gasification temp ?
What are you mostly burning, looks like maple maybe?

My brother-in-law has geothermal (done with 9 wells).  They have spent much more and are doing much less and when its real cold (yesterday & today it was -31 C or -24 F) they have to have a wood stove on also.  I took a hard look at geo but decided to stay with wood.  Have no idea how much water would be required for a geo - theirs is ground based.  Also with geo, you have to consider you will use a fair bit of electricity as it requires a compressor (like a refridgerator).  I guess it is probably more environmentaly friendly, and certainly less work (no fuel gathering, no pipes to clean, no feeding the furnace).  For now, I am just happy I am finally getting a benefit from all that water as it has always just been an expense.


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## infinitymike (Jan 22, 2014)

I installed a thermometer in the rear door right inline with the gasification tunnel.

i posted a thread showing it


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## avc8130 (Jan 22, 2014)

I just can't fathom 8500 gallons in a day.  That is like basically pumping a river.  It must cost a fortune to pump all of that water.  Why even have a basement?  You might have been better off with a house boat!

ac


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## Green Mt Heat (Jan 22, 2014)

Great Video Mike,
Keep filming them,you are the #1 source for Wood Gun videos on the planet!


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## infinitymike (Jan 23, 2014)

Pontypool said:


> Agreed!  Great video Mike.  That panel is pretty slick.  It is one thing to assume your gasification temp is rising, but quite another to be able to watch it rise by the second.
> I can understand how you are getting water temps, but how are you measuring the gasification temp ?
> What are you mostly burning, looks like maple maybe?



I am burning mostly oak but do have some maple mixed in.


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## Pontypool (Jan 23, 2014)

I like the gasification temp sensor Mike - where did you find that?

AC - should I gather that you do not have a basement?  Where I live most (95%) people have them, I just happen to be in an area where there are natural springs.  It is a fair bit of water, the pump cycles about 20 seconds on, 40 seconds off, but a $200 sump will last 3 - 7 years.  I have 2 separate sumps, each with its own battery backup.  Electricity use is about $30 - $40 / month for both
Once it is set up properly (like anything else) it is not a big deal really.  Basement is dry, we only use it for storage, laundry, boiler, 6 bush cords wood, etc, but it adds 1200 sq/ft of utility space - all of which is used.
If the power is out, it takes about 2 hours for the 8 inches of stone under the floor to fill up before the backup takes over.  Brother-in-law (with geothermal) lives a 15 minute walk away, no ground water, has to be careful with his well - go figure.  If I had to choose between these, probably would rather have the water.  There have been times though, when there are extreme rains, I have considered pontoons


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## Pontypool (Jan 23, 2014)

I like the gasification temp sensor Mike - where did you find that?

AC - should I gather that you do not have a basement?  Where I live most (95%) people have them, I just happen to be in an area where there are natural springs.  It is a fair bit of water, the pump cycles about 20 seconds on, 40 seconds off, but a $200 sump will last 3 - 7 years.  I have 2 separate sumps, each with its own battery backup.  Electricity use is about $30 - $40 / month for both
Once it is set up properly (like anything else) it is not a big deal really.  Basement is dry, we only use it for storage, laundry, boiler, 6 bush cords wood, etc, but it adds 1200 sq/ft of utility space - all of which is used.
If the power is out, it takes about 2 hours for the 8 inches of stone under the floor to fill up before the backup takes over.  Brother-in-law (with geothermal) lives a 15 minute walk away, no ground water, has to be careful with his well - go figure.  If I had to choose between these, probably would rather have the water.  There have been times though, when there are extreme rains, I have considered pontoons


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## avc8130 (Jan 23, 2014)

Pontypool said:


> I like the gasification temp sensor Mike - where did you find that?
> 
> AC - should I gather that you do not have a basement?  Where I live most (95%) people have them, I just happen to be in an area where there are natural springs.  It is a fair bit of water, the pump cycles about 20 seconds on, 40 seconds off, but a $200 sump will last 3 - 7 years.  I have 2 separate sumps, each with its own battery backup.  Electricity use is about $30 - $40 / month for both
> Once it is set up properly (like anything else) it is not a big deal really.  Basement is dry, we only use it for storage, laundry, boiler, 6 bush cords wood, etc, but it adds 1200 sq/ft of utility space - all of which is used.
> If the power is out, it takes about 2 hours for the 8 inches of stone under the floor to fill up before the backup takes over.  Brother-in-law (with geothermal) lives a 15 minute walk away, no ground water, has to be careful with his well - go figure.  If I had to choose between these, probably would rather have the water.  There have been times though, when there are extreme rains, I have considered pontoons



Oh, I have a basement.  2500sq ft of it.  Dry as a bone.  My old house had a basement with a sump pump.  Never again.  

Good on you for having the battery backup.  I had one also.  With your quantity I would be scared about having ENOUGH battery backup to last a 10 hour work day without power during a rain storm.

ac


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## Fred61 (Jan 23, 2014)

Around these parts the water that seeps into your basement and the water down in the drilled well ain't the same water. Basement water is surface water and drilled well water in from the aquifer or water flowing in the cracks of the bedrock.


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## Pontypool (Jan 23, 2014)

Caught a couple more of your videos Mike - definately like the torch trick and will definately be using that.
I am used to always lighting a fire with chopped kindling cribbed with small firewood above it.  I was leary about how the first few fires would go, smoke has a tendacy to rise & scatter and my E100 is in my basement so the smoke would go all through the house.  You make it look very easy - there is nothing like a live demo.

With my old wood furnace, I would scoop cold ash/coals from the firebox into a 35 gallon can.  About once every two weeks I would sift the contents of the can using a 3/8" screen - any metal pieces went to scrap, coals into a can for re-burning, ash into plastic garbage bags for the curb.  I was under the impression coals were not usable in the wood gun, but I see from you video they are still quite valuable.  I thank you - it is really great getting all this knowledge without having to stumble around making mistakes to figure it out (which is my usual way of figuring things out).


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## Pontypool (Jan 28, 2014)

Fred61 - curious - why are you a former wood gun owner?   Which wood gun did you have?
How long did you have the wood gun?  Did you have issues with it?

Mike - Where do you have your combustion air damper set?   Do you ever have "puff-back" issues?  Anyone?


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## avc8130 (Jan 28, 2014)

Pontypool said:


> Fred61 - curious - why are you a former wood gun owner?   Which wood gun did you have?
> How long did you have the wood gun?  Did you have issues with it?
> 
> Mike - Where do you have your combustion air damper set?   Do you ever have "puff-back" issues?  Anyone?



Oh boy...He had an old Wood Gun from back in the day.  It was carbon steel and he had nothing but problems with it.  He couldn't kick it to the curb fast enough.  In his angered haste he didn't even strip any of the antiquated controls off.  

I keep my air damper wide open.  I find any smaller and the boiler output is reduced.  I have installed the "EPA Plug" from AHS to reduce the huffing and puffing when using dry wood.

ac


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## Pontypool (Jan 28, 2014)

"nothing but problems"??   what kind of problems?

EPA plug ????     what is it? , what does it do?   cost?  is it hard to install?

I am burning Hickory with 15 - 20 % moisture (accounding to my cheap moisture meter).


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## infinitymike (Jan 28, 2014)

Pontypool said:


> Fred61 - curious - why are you a former wood gun owner?   Which wood gun did you have?
> How long did you have the wood gun?  Did you have issues with it?
> NO, NO, NO please don't ask that question. Fred just mailed his heart monitor back and this will only upset him and I don't want his heart rate to get elevated.
> 
> ...


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## Fred61 (Jan 28, 2014)

I guess my panel of spokespersons has taken care of getting my response to you. With a little spin, of course  They have recently started doubting their choice of boilers even more since another member disposed of his 4 years sooner than I disposed of mine. Proof that I tried to make it work.


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## avc8130 (Jan 28, 2014)

Fred61 said:


> I guess my panel of spokespersons has taken care of getting my response to you. With a little spin, of course  They have recently started doubting their choice of boilers even more since another member disposed of his 4 years sooner than I disposed of mine. Proof that I tried to make it work.



Nah, no doubting here.  It's polar vortex week 2 here and my house is whatever temp I like with as much DHW as you could ever want.  

I puts the wood in, it puts the heat out.

The EPA plug is available from AHS, speak to Darren.  I think it is ~$40 option and it helps the boiler deal with wood that is <20% moisture.  

ac


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## muncybob (Jan 28, 2014)

Regarding the air intake damper, just as with other boilers... you will find that one setting does not work for all end users. There are times when I run with the damper at about 3/4 closed and other times it runs better wide open. Seems to depend partly on the m.c., drier wood for me needs less air intake.

I'm not sure why the comment that WG users are doubting their boiler choice was made, the only "regret" I have is not having the funds to start out with storage. Well into 5th year and satsified as I could ever expect to be w/o storage although I really wouldn't mind seeing 40* temps again.


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## infinitymike (Jan 28, 2014)

Fred61 said:


> I guess my panel of spokespersons has taken care of getting my response to you. With a little spin, of course  They have recently started doubting their choice of boilers even more since another member disposed of his 4 years sooner than I disposed of mine. Proof that I tried to make it work.



Who is this masked man you speak of.


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## Pontypool (Jan 29, 2014)

So I am trying to wrap my head around what back-puffing is and the cause - hoping with all the experienced WG'ers & Red-Greens out there that there could be a solution.
If I am hearing correctly it sounds like this only happens after the fire has been starved of air particularly when the damper door opens (automatic or manual) after only a short "off/starve" period.
I am not a firefighter, but did a bit of reading (only enough to make me dangerous).  This is something they have to consider whenever entering an enclosed space where there is fire.  They have a triangle (fuel, air, heat/ignition source).   In flashover and backdraft the fuel is the heated gases which are starved for air and therefore cannot ignite - which sort of sounds like what is going on in the WG.
The generalized firefighter solution to this is to cool and modify the chemical makeup of the gases with a quick shot of water (think steam) before allowing air in.
Soooooooooooooo,  what if (borrowing from Mike's thermometer through the door trick) there was a small nozzle mounted through the front top door so a small solenoid could inject a very small quantity of water as a spray.  Something like, call for heat - draft inducer starts, 2 second delay on water solenoid, 7 second delay on damper door.
Go easy, don't start throwing kindling, remember I have not fired mine yet, just thinking out loud.


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## avc8130 (Jan 29, 2014)

Go for it and let us know.  

Realistically, without the cycle timer and with the differential set to 30 I never get a back puff.  

ac


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## Pontypool (Jan 29, 2014)

"Go for it and let us know."  no offense, but was kind of hoping for a little more feedback than that.

I only have 1 timer, the one you turn to 5 and wait for the green light - so you do not use that?  (just open door
real slowly?)
I gather setting the differential (aquastat is set to 160, operating limit 190 - this is what you mean?) to 30 is extending the time the draft inducer is off/draft door is closed so that the gases have more time to cool and settle.
Does this give you a bit more creosote build up than the AHS recommended 20* differential?
I gather both you and Mike have your operating limit set higher than the AHS recommendation of 180 for SS.  I have always wondered why the SS setting is lower than the carbon steel setting of 190?   So what is the consequence to the boiler of having this setting higher tha 180?


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## avc8130 (Jan 29, 2014)

Pontypool said:


> "Go for it and let us know."  no offense, but was kind of hoping for a little more feedback than that.
> 
> I only have 1 timer, the one you turn to 5 and wait for the green light - so you do not use that?  (just open door
> real slowly?)
> ...



Generally I reload the boiler when it is firing "naturally".  In other words, when it is running anyways. IF, and that is a big IF, I use the purge timer, I always run it the full 15 minutes and I even spin it all the way back to 15 when I am done reloading to make sure it runs as long as possible to prevent a short time between firings.

Most WG'ers run their setting at 200F with 30f differential.  Both of those settings are on the operating aquastat.  

The idea behind the higher settings and larger differential is that the boiler fires longer and then is idle longer.  This longer idle time gives the volatile gasses time to calm down a bit before the boiler activates and fans them with fresh, cold 02 rich air.  

Seriously, call Jeff or Darren at AHS.  They are both very knowledgeable and love to help customers get their setups working just right.

ac


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## infinitymike (Jan 29, 2014)

Just this morning I had a conversation with someone about
_"wondering"  _or_ thinking out loud _
In my opinion, wondering is the back bone of engineering and invention!
Case in point, I wonder what will happen if I take this big square stone and make it round. Or, I wonder what will happen if I take this loaf of white bread and slice it.
Sooo, I wonder what will happen if I spray water into the burn chamber of the WG is a good "wonder" and is not worth throwing kindling around.

However, AHS had already been wondering about this and on their new models the air intake damper opens a fraction and then closes, then opens a bit more and then closes and so on and so on until it is wide open. All the time the fan is on and purging the gases.

The cycle timer is almost always the culprit to an explosion. 
The cycle timer is NOT the little timer on the front, that is the purge timer.
The cycle timer is a box with a 4 hour timer that turns on the WG to what ever you set it for.
This will help keep the coals "alive" so when its time to fire up because of a demand it will relight.
However, the cycle timer really isn't needed in the cold weather because most likely the WG will be turning on more regularly because of heat demands.
I have my timer set to turn on for 8 minutes every hour.
What can happen is the unit just shut down from a heat demand and then a few minutes later the cycle timer kicks on and PUFF.
I added an inline delay timer from Dayton that will keep the damper closed for 0-60 seconds (i set it for 45 sec) while the fan is on and purging any gases.
On the new models, the cycle timer resets itself if the unit turned so there will be no chance of a puff-back

I like AC, don't use the purge timer to reload, I have gotten into a system and routine and know when it will need to be fed and wait for it to turn on by itself.

Don't over think it. 
The WG is safe, simple and will keep your family warm. Gee, don't I just sound like a salesmen


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## Pontypool (Jan 30, 2014)

Ok, so the cycle timer had me really confused - took AC's advice - spoke with Darren - clear as mud now.
My unit does not have a cycle timer.   I am thinking (hoping) this will not be an issue as I have many heat loads, and a second building, so the WG will probably cycle fairly regularly anyway.

Also my settings need adjusting to be more in-line with you other WG'ers.
My Low Temp Cut Off is set at 160 - will be setting that at 140.
My operating limit is set at 180, will bump that up to 190 & high limit from 200 to 205.
My differential is 15* , will be setting that to 30*

All this is making a whole lot more sense now.
I burn 85% hickory which is among the more dense woods (according to the firewood chart).  My pieces are
22 1/2" long and about 9" - 12" splits, any rounds smaller than 10" do not get split.  I mentioned my m/c being around 16 - 20%  - Darren thought I might be ok given the type of wood and size of pieces - it would be a real pain to have to mix in wet stuff as all my cut wood is seasoned 2 years, outside rack is full, basement is full, bush has 3 feet of snow and I have no where to store it.  Will start off with what I have and see how it goes.

I also asked about the recommendation  for carbon WG's operating at 190* but SS @180* - the carbon units are set higher to burn off/minimize creosote build-up which is more toxic to carbon than to SS.

I am going to put a delay on the damper right away - before firing.

The water spray idea is going to remain "in the (smoke) cloud" for now until I can see if there is even a need for it.  If it ain't broke..........   from what I am hearing here, with the correct settings, it may not need fixing.
So, once again - sincerely - thank you Mike and AC for sharing your knowledge and experience, very helpful for a newbie.


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## avc8130 (Jan 30, 2014)

Sounds like you got straightened out. 

Let us know when you throw the candle to her!

ac


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## Pontypool (Dec 22, 2014)

Hello - I'm back.
You said to let you know - I'm a lettin you know.
Finallllllllllllly running my E100 after 3 years of building the beast.
Have a sunroom infloor (concrete) zone, 2 baseboard zones, 1 fan coil
zone which heats most of the house, DHW zone, filter zone, chiller zone,
and the main loop which is its own zone - all functioning.
Once it is up to temperature, the E100 is having no problem heating all zones with
staggered startups.

Now working on a zone to heat an 800 sq/ft out building.

So now I have some new questions to ask of the experienced wood burners out there.

My E100 is taking 30 to 45 minutes to reach 180 F from cold (70 F) with no load - is that about right??

My operating limit is set to 190F differential at 30.  I can switch from START to RUN at 157 F.
When my unit shuts down, the factory temp gauge mounted in the boiler only reads 180F.
If I lower the operating limit to 180, these start/stop numbers do not change??????
(high limit is 210, low temp 140)  Am I missing something?

Door gaskets - I am thinking these should not burn - mine got scorched on the first burn
and they are getting worse, have some leaking.  Has anyone replaced their door gaskets?
What material did you use?  I am only finding high temp silicone rated for 500F.
See pics of fried door gasket - these are from one burn.

Also attaching pic of my fresh air rig.  Air comes in through the back pipe that goes into the
white steel pail, then is picked up by the boiler intake pipe.  I have a fire damper on the intake
in case the motorized damper ever failed and fire went down the intake.
The 6 inch PVC (grey and clear) tube in the fore ground is my glycol make-up, the
double 4 inch PVC (white and clear) tubes beside the boiler is connected to the boiler relief
valve.


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## avc8130 (Dec 22, 2014)

30 to 45 minutes from "cold" to operating temp is about right.  That's similar to my E180.  Certainly not abnormally "long" in my opinion.

With regards to those door gaskets, it looks like they are the lower doors?  If so, AHS stopped using those style gaskets on those doors as far as I know.  My E180 came with a high temp rope gasket on the 2 lower doors 3 years ago.  No issues to this day with it.

Are you sure the factory gauge is reading right?  The aquastat and temp gauge aren't mounted in exactly the same spot/height on the boiler so there may be as much as 5-15 degree difference between them.  Another thing that affects the readings is whether the water is cycling from a pump running or just stagnant being heated.  I run my gun 200/30 w/ 210 High and 140F Low.

If the motorized damper "fails", the return spring closes it automatically.  Good on you for having a down then up path for the intake, that will prevent it from becoming a "chimney" at any point. 

What else do you have going on there?  Why a glycol make up?  Where is your water going?  I see you have the DHW coil, but it isn't hooked up?  

More pics of the install, I see come BIG copper there!

ac


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## infinitymike (Dec 22, 2014)

As just mentioned 30-45 is about right, hopefully you won't be starting from that temperature often.

I have the silicone gasket on my front upper loading door. They are a lot more scorched than that and I have no issues.
The door can be pulled in tighter by loosening the 2 bolts on the hinges and pushing the door in as well as taking a shim out of the locking side.

What is plumbed out of the left port?
I have an aqua-stat in each of the ports.
The one on the right is my operating limit which I have set to 205* with a 30* differential. 
 The one on the left is the low limit which I have set to 155*, that means the circulator pump will stop and a relay switches the oil burner on. 
Once the temp is back over 155* the WG circ pump kicks on and the oil burner shuts off.
I have a dual aqua stat on the top in the front left corner.
That has a hi limit of 220 which kills power to the fan and a low limit of 140 which kills the fan too.

Also why do you have pipes in both lower return ports?


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## avc8130 (Dec 22, 2014)

WOW!

Mike,

My upper load door gasket still looks BRAND NEW!  I guess keeping that smoke flapper in there has a secondary result of saving the door gasket.

ac


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## Pontypool (Dec 23, 2014)

Hi AC & Mike,
Good to be back in touch with you.
My installation has taken me a long time to get going, partly because of conflicting or just bad advice which I acted on, then had to re-do properly.  I was starting with no knowledge of boilers and learning from contractors I would hire who had varying degrees of knowledge and skill.

I will start at the top of AC's post. 
Yes, it is only the lower doors which are scorched, and on the first burn where I only had a smaller fire.
Last night I adjusted the doors, I think it is just crushing the gaskets more because the whole house is stinking like smoke/creosote - cannot use it like this any longer - it is much worse now after a week of burning.  I have a 100' roll of 3/4" rope gasket, tomorrow I will replace the lower door gaskets.  I am thinking I would have to use 2 layers held with high temp silicone to take up the same thickness.  I have not taken it apart, but my owner manual shows a layer of rope, then the silicone gasket.  My loading door gasket is like new, I will leave that one, but I have no choice but to replace the high temp doors.

I am not sure if the factory gauge is wrong or the op-limit.  I have my main loop circ coming on at 130F so fluid is moving.  Other gauges in different areas of the system (supply side) are more agreeing with the factory gauge than the op-limit - once I have the gaskets fixed I will do some temp checks - one of these should probably be replaced.
I have the return fluid split and going into both lower ports because I thought it would distribute the return water better, mix it up more......... I didn't know if those ports were both to be used or just an option for left/right connection so, not having a definate answer, I figured I wouldn't go wrong if I plumbed both.

My settings right now are similar to both of yours.  I was thinking a greater differential would be better but my op-limit will only allow 30F.  Most of my zones will work quite well with 130F.  Now that I see how the WG works, I will probably add some mixing valves and some strap-on aquastats to cut power to zones which require the high temps - so basically certain zones would only run when high temps (say 165F or more)  are available so all the loads don't make demands on startup, and the lower temp zones can run longer (from say, 160F) down to 130F when the wood is burnt.
Thank you both for you settings - it helps to know what you are doing so I know what I can try safely.

I added the fire damper as an extra fail safe in case, say, a piece of wood (insert 1 in a million failure here) prevented the damper from closing or if the spring broke (can that happen ??? I don't know 1:1,000,000).  It cost $35, it makes my wife feel better, so that makes it worthwhile.

I am using glycol on the strong recommendation from one of the contractors who worked with me.  I have a 8 inch pre-fab insulated big-"O" type pipe with 2 - 1 inch pex lines running 160 feet to my garage.  The original plan was to have a closed glycol loop in the garage running to the house (basement).  The house system was to be water, then have a plate exchanger to heat the garage loop.  If I use glycol, I can have the garage running as just another zone off my main loop, no extra equipment required.  Also he told me glycol has better heat transfer properties, which I now know is incorrect.  Also the glycol cost me $700 which probably would have bought all the equipment for the closed loop.

I will attach a pic of my boiler room board where I have my DHW plate exchanger (see if you can spot it).  Just for piping and pumping, space and logistics, I ended up not using the DHW coil in the boiler.  I reserve the right to use that as an ordinary zone down the road, should the need arise.

My whole system is copper, brass, bronze or stainless except most circs and mounting flanges.  Took the advice of contractors??  Main loop - 1 1/2" - 100 running feet, garage zone 1", all other zones 3/4" - 320 running feet (so far), chiller - 230 running feet of stainless 1/2" flex tube.

My boiler will probably run out of fuel daily and cool to something like 110F - are you telling me that is not good?

My left upper port on the boiler is just used as a vent when filling.  I put a valve on so that I could add something down the road without draining.
So Mike - am I understanding right - you let the factory low limit shutdown the draft motor and damper at 140F and your left (back) op-limit is to shut down your zones?   I think I am doing the basically the same thing except I am using a bulb with a capillary tube strapped onto the supply pipe immediately above the boiler - mine is probably slower to react.

I see from your pics the ash that drops from the rear clean out door - that is bothering me on mine as it is in the basement close to clean stuff and I am trying to keep it reasonable clean.  I am making a tray to mount under that door so when opened the ash doesn't fall all over the motor/pipes/floor - will mount to the two studs holding that thick steel plate the motor is mounted to - will send pics when I have it done.

Mike what is connected to the "T" just below your pressure release?

Should I understand that both of you are using water (not antifreeze) ?  AC - that is a pretty big boiler for a house - is that the only thing you are heating with your E180?  How about some pics of your install - I am ALWAYS looking for ideas to borrow and better ways to do things.
My pics below - main board just behind boiler (another reason I'm becoming anal about ash), added a sceond expansion tank, my homemade chiller/ac unit - visible in expansion tank pic (may have posted this before)

Do either of you have flow switches?  Contractor installed one on mine, another told me it was not needed, I removed it.

Ok - end of my part-novel - after 4:30 (EST) I will not have internet access again until Jan 5 so I am getting all my wordage in now.  If we don't chat before then I am wishing you both a great Christmas.
Scott.


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## avc8130 (Dec 23, 2014)

What type of heating are you feeding?  Radiant/baseboard/forced air exchanger?

Do you have return water protection?

The 30 differential is good to maintain the coals ready to fire.  The Wood Gun does need to cycle to not "lose" a fire.

Good call on the glycol since you have a freeze potential on that run.  I still don't understand why you needed the "makeup".  Your system shouldn't leak so you shouldn't need to add glycol.  Is the system un-pressurized?

Why is your boiler going cold?  That's not really how the WG was designed to operate.

You really need to explain your heating system.  It sounds pretty "non-traditional" from what I am reading.

His expansion tank is just below his pressure relief.

No antifreeze here.  It's a "heating system" so if it is cold and about to freeze I have major issues.  I have no runs that our outside my heated envelop.

Yeah, E180 in a "house".  3500 sq ft.  The original plan was to add a run out to my 30x50 shop, but I haven't gotten around to it yet.  So far, so good.  I match my wood load to my heating load pretty well and rarely fill the beast.  When the weather gets brutal (like last winter) I sure did enjoy the ability to pack a lot of heat into the firebox.

No flow switch here.

Merry Christmas to you also!  Enjoy some pics of my setup:

http://s878.photobucket.com/user/avc8130/library/Boiler?sort=3&page=1

ac


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## Pontypool (Dec 23, 2014)

In the sunroom I have 220 feet of pex in a 2 1/2" overpour and 35 feet of baseboard for when it really gets cold.  I have baseboard in the basement on one wall and would like to add more.  I am using a plate exchanger for DHW.  I have an existing regular forced air natural gas furnace fully functional.  There is a 32X28 4 row coil in the duct which I use for heating and cooling using the boiler system and my chiller.  I replaced the 6 speed motor in the gas furnace with a GE ECM motor. Using relays it has one control which operates the fan motor at the proper fixed (high)speed for the gas heating, this gets precedence.  If the boiler is running, and not the gas, there is a variable speed control in the hall on the main floor which allows me to run the fan continuously and sloooowwww so there is constant low heat - very comfortable - all inspected and approved.  The idea was that we can vary the fan speed because heating is different based on the temp outside.  A thermostat shuts off the coil pump and furnace fan when set temp is reached, but usually we set the fan very low so the heat stays just below the shut off point.  This is very easy to use and works extremely well - there are no temperature swings like we have with the gas furnace,
(gas startup - cold blast of air, then it warms up, then its too warm  - it shuts down, then it gets cool and the cycle starts again - every half hour or so)
Next project is to add a fan coil to warm an 800 sq. ft. garage (24,000 BTU).
Also I have a Rehau manifold and Grundfos 6 zone control - I want to heat some specific small jobs with one pump - towel warmers, wrap the bath tubs with pex and insulate so they are noticibly warm when you step in to take a shower, pex under the wood subfloor by the back door so water from boots on the (carpet)mat dries quickly
- that kind of stuff.

Not sure what return water protection is - do you have it - can you explain - do I need it?

I would like WG to cycle from 150 to 190 - it should not have a problem restarting with a slightly longer cycle during the main heating season - maybe in spring & fall in might be a problem but I could easily dial it back for that time.

The glycol make up is so I can purge air manually from the top of the system and recover the glycol that purges with it. Also (remember I am still building and modifying) it allows me to drain and open zones and not lose more than a few drops of fluid.  System is pressurized to 10 psi - there are 2 expansion tanks.  I originally had the green one (see pic above) which is 17 gallon - pressure was going to 15 psi when temp went to 120F - so I added a 6 gallon, pressure now goes to 15 psi @ 190F.  Also, when one eventually fails I have a backup.
Boiler is running cold because I let the fire go out when I am not home.  It is new, I don't trust it yet - for good reason - look at my gaskets - that could easily be a fire.
I am somewhat p*ssed that I have put not more than 7 loads of wood in my WG, none of which had more than 4 - 6 inch pieces and I have to replace the gaskets - that is just wrong, no?  I e-mailed Alternate Heating - 2 people - no reply - so not really happy about that.
I am finding that my E100 will heat us out of the house in a short time (1 hour)running the coil at its lowest settings.  I am having a hard time imagining you using a boiler with twice the capacity of mine for just a house.  Is it an older, leaky house or a log house - how can you use that much heat?  I see from your pics you have PLENTY of wood and some real nice equipment for handling!
Talk to you again  (I hope) Jan 5.


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## avc8130 (Dec 23, 2014)

No wonder your heating system sounds so interesting.  Now it makes more sense.

Technically speaking, wood boilers do not like return water below 140F.  There are thermostatic valves that mix supply water with return to keep the temp high enough.  Wood Gun says you don't "need" it, but they also say in the manual to design the system to keep return water above 140F.  I do not have any "protection" but I also don't run my baseboards below 160F.

Why are you constantly manually purging air?  Your system is pressurized, you shouldn't have to purge air much after the intial setup.  I don't blame you for not wanting to lose that glycol as you drain the system for future additions...that stuff is pricey!

Did you buy the boiler new from AHS?  I have had very good response from them.  Maybe the time change/Christmas holiday?  

I really thought AHS moved AWAY from that door gasket setup.  That high temp silicone isn't rated to gassification temps I didn't think.

I don't understand.  The boiler turns on and off.  It cycles.  I put wood in (about 12 splits) in the morning, in the evening, and again before bed.  I let the magic of the WG gremlins take care of the rest.  Could an E100 have done the job?  Probably.  However, when I bought the WG I had plans of heating my 1500 sq ft shop.  My house is a "standard construction" 2500 sq ft ranch.  2x4 walls, insulated with batting.  Ceiling with fiberglass insulation.  Anderson 2-pane casements.  I do have a lot of cathedral ceilings. I have another 1k sq ft in a walk out basement that is finished.  I also heat DHW for 2 adults and a kid.  My heating is 4 zones of hot water baseboard (2 with some kick heaters) and 1 zone of convection wall units.  My Wood Gun cycles between 200 and 170.  The thermostats and zone valves keep me from heating myself out of the house.

ac


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## muncybob (Dec 24, 2014)

It's been my experience that you will get great customer service at AHS with a phone call, not so much with emails.
Regarding the rear door, I very rarely even open this door let alone clean out any ashes from that ledge. I also rarely clean the ashes out from the bottom front door ledge, as someone here pointed out awhile ago...those ashes don't interfere with the perrformance of the boiler and they actually help to insulate part of the door gaskets. In my 1st year with the WG I also was cleaning that back door ash weekly, but not since. Using the cleaning tool from the front of the boiler seems to keep the rear of the tubes clear for me.

I also had the wrong door gaskets in my bottom doors from AHS, since replaced with rope/silicone combo it's been clear sailing...no leaks and they have lasted 5 yrs to this point and based upon inspection this autumn they should be good for another few years at least. I don't recall if this was discussed or not but you need all exhaust duct well sealed. High temp silicone again works for that..I even had my duct pipes welded just to be sure.


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## Pontypool (Jan 5, 2015)

Attaching pics of my lower door gaskets - replaced them with 2 layers of 5/8" rope - good now.
Air purging - over the holiday I replaced the filter cartridge in my filter zone.  That required valving off the filter housing, draining (about a half gallon), then re-flooding.  I have a manual air purge on that zone for the initial re-flooding but some air always gets into the main loop once the zone comes back online.  The main air purge/scrubber is just downstream of the boiler, the filter zone (all zones actually) is downstream of that.  So when filter zone comes back online, some air gets into the main loop and circulates into other zones (in small amounts).  All zones have a "Maid-o-mist" but even with all these it will be a few days before there is no bubbles whatsoever.  The drained glycol goes into the makeup unit, which is manually pressurized, for re-use as required.  Since I drained a half gallon while the fluid temp was 130F @ 13 psi, that fluid came from the expansion tanks.  Whenever the system falls below 130F again, the psi will drop causing the makeup unit to push fluid into the main loop at 10psi.  I pressurized my system to 10 psi @ 70F.  At 190F the pressure rises to 15.5 psi.  The makeup has a regulator which only adds fluid if the pressure drops below 10 psi.

Added pics of my front drain valve & protector - ball valve handle removed & hand fastened when needed.

Also attached a pic of my rear door tray - that works nicely.  After reading your post muncybob I am going to make use of that logic.  I have been cleaning those regularly.  Makes sense that the ashes will protect the gaskets - I am thinking I will very carefully open the front door once in a while, clean the tubes, shine a light to the back.  If the ends are not blocked I will leave the ash, in the front also, give the frame a wipe and close it up again.

AC - I gather your system has one pump running pretty much steady and zone valves on thermostats deciding which zones require heat?

Muncybob - yes I learned (the hard way) that you MUST seal the exhaust pipes.  Due to clearance issues I was only able to have my vertical pipe off the cyclone as single wall, the rest (horizontal) to the chimney is one inch insulated.  Since the insulated pipe fits together so well and has a locking ring, I figured I didn't need to silicone the joints - WRONG!!
They are sealed real good now.

Here is a thought I would like some comment on.  I am thinking to wrap my WG cyclone and vertical single wall pipe with copper tube.  I would connect the tube to my filter zone so it would cycle fluid from the main loop, through the filter, through the copper coil around the cyclone, then back to the main loop.  I would add a bulb type aquastat to the outside of the tube on the cyclone and set it to run only if the temp was above 170F ??.  I have a cheap stove pipe magnetic thermometer which tells my my cyclone gets up to 340F.  I know I need some heat to go up the chimney to keep it warm but it seems like alot of heat going to waste.  I am thinking this could trigger my filter zone to run for maybe 15 minutes every time the WG cycles, and it would be helping to heat the main loop.  I am thinking to set the aquastat fairly high so as not to rob all the heat from the cyclone.     Anyone see a problem  with this?


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## muncybob (Jan 5, 2015)

Interesting idea on the cyclone heat capture plan...hope it works. Your temp is probably considerably higher than the reading on the magnetic thermometer. I use to have a "stick on" type and eventually put in a probe type, temp was about 100 degree F higher than the magnetic read, so I'm guessing you are closer to 440F which is about as hot as I have ever seen on mine. I normally run about 380 to 400.
My rope gaskets are covered by high temp silicone(same thing any unwelded pipe seams are sealed by). Rope is probably 5 years old now and still in great shape. I clean the gaskets off each off season and reapply a layer of silicone..seems to seal the doors well.


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## Pontypool (Jan 6, 2015)

Thanks for the info about the cyclone temps - I have a digital bulb type thermometer - not sure if it can take that much heat, but I will carefully try it and see if I am getting the same temps as you - should be, as it is the same WG, but maybe different wood?  I am just figuring that if I recover some of that heat, I will use a little less wood.  It will not be a major expense as I am just extending an existing zone - we'll see.  Will post pics when I do.  I was hoping others may have pondered doing this and would have some insight to add.

I don't understand AH's use of silicone on the lower doors.  Those temps are likely more than 1000F.  I cannot find any silicone with a rating that high (1700 - 2000F).   Also don't understand why my seals failed so badly, so quickly, yet others are still using theirs.

At the time I was running with my damper wide open and it was working fine - maybe it was making a hotter fire because there was more air through-put???  Only thing I can think of - but still the WG is designed to handle that - no?  I am only burning regular hardwood 15 - 20% MC which I also read in a thread is about your preference.

Since then I have had huffing/puffing.  I have read a post you made on another thread where you said you run your WG with the damper 3/4 closed to avoid puffing and to maybe save wood.  Sounds good to me so I tried that.  No more puffing but I have no way to know if it is saving wood but your theory makes sense to me.

Also discovered my seals around the fan motor are leaking causing that foul creosote/smoke smell in the house.
Initially I just smeared high temp silicone around the seal closest to the back wall, that cut the stink in half.
On the weekend I am going to remove the motor and probably replace the rope seal and get it sealed up proper.

Sounds like a lot of negative but it is heating the house and DHW very nicely.  I am only burning 5 or 6 pieces of wood per day which is about the same as my old forced air wood/oil combo except the Wg is aditionally heating the basement to a comfortable temp, heating a sunroom with lots of windows, and the dhw.


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## infinitymike (Jan 6, 2015)

Nice metal fab work.
I like the rear tray, I just stick a piece of 3/4" plywood back there when ever I open it.

I don't understand the thoughts with the pipe around the cyclone.
What is a "filter" zone and why do you need it to help the main loop?


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## infinitymike (Jan 6, 2015)

Huffing is caused by very dry wood and a lot of surface area that off-gases.
15-20% is probably to dry for the WG, 25-30% is better.
Split size is important too, small, skinny pieces will burn up quick and they have a lot more surface area per cubic foot, so they release more gas which in return needs more O2 and if not enough O2 is present the fire will huff.
So larger splits are preferred, 5x5, 6x6, 8x8.
When you say you are burning 5-6 pieces per day, how big are the pieces, what temp are you maintaining the house at and what type of heat emitters are you using?


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## muncybob (Jan 6, 2015)

Ponty, once you get all the leaks discovered and corrected I think you'll be a happy camper. Up until recently AHS had those rubbery silicone seals on all doors and mine looked like your pic after the 1st season too. For some reason the rope door gaskets I installed smeared with a generous coating of high temp silicone have held up nicely even though I know the silicone is only rated to 600(I think).

I do run with the damper about 3/4 closed and this along with larger splits as Mike stated have helped a lot with the huffing. I think a byproduct of mostly closed damper is more ash accumulation in my horiziontal pipe run to the chimney. I check this monthly and clean as needed.


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## Pontypool (Jan 7, 2015)

Thanks Mike - I am going to apply the logic from Muncybob (above) regarding the back door so that tray will probably be staying pretty clean.

What I am calling a "filter zone" is a zone or loop off of my main loop that has is own circulator (Grundfos 15-58)and a stainless filter (see pic).  All this zone does (when manually switched on) is filter the boiler fluid - mine is propelene glycol.  I have been trying to educate myself a bit about the fluid - I am gathering it is pretty important to maintain the fluid in proper condition as it will silently destroy your equipment from the inside if it becomes acidic or there is too much particle.

Currently the filter zone only cleans the fluid.  I was thinking to take, lets say, 50 feet of 5/8 inch flexible copper tubing and wrapping it around and around the body of the cyclone, and around the single wall vertical stove pipe (just like your pipe) attched to the cyclone.  So the filter zone would now take fluid from the main loop, filter it, then pass it through the tubing which is wrapped around the cyclone, heating it and capturing wasted heat going up the chimney, then returning that filtered, heated fluid to the main loop.  I would put a bulb with capillary aquastat onto the copper tubing right on the cyclone so that when it was heated to say, 190F the zone pump would start and very slowly  move fluid through that loop, heating and filtering the fluid.   As a by-product it would cause fluid to run through the filter regularly, right now I just randomly run the filter zone pump.  The main idea is that you are getting more heat from your wood because you are capturing heat which is going up the chimney.   My cheap magnetic stove pipe temp gauge says my cyclone heats up to 340F - Muncybob has a proper probe temp gauge and is measuring 380 - 400F.

I had an experience with huffing last night.  I loaded the boiler with stump cuts & irregular knotty pieces - so lots of good solid dry wood which does not stack together, lots of air space in between pieces.  It was a good hot fire & started huffing - even closing the damper didn't help.  So I am understanding what you are saying now.  My pieces are generally fairly large.  I don't split anything less than 10" round.  Splits from the body of the tree are generally at least 8 x 8.   All my wood is Hickory - 24 inches long. 

Currently my heat loads are a 32" X 28" - 4 row coil in the ductwork which is the main heating for the house, some zoned baseboards and DHW - will be adding the garage (26K BTU fan coil) hopefully this season.   My wife likes the house to be 25 C (77F) - E100 has no problem with this. 
Our house temp flucuates alot though.  At bedtime, I set the main coil down to 21 C (70F) for better sleeping, then back up to 77F when we get up.  If we are both going to be out of the house we allow the house to fully warm up, let the WG complete a cycle and normally shutdown at 190F then cut the power (2 switches) to the WG and all the circulators.   We can be away for 10 hours, when we return the house will be about 68-70F and the WG will be about 130-145F.  The  WG fires easy from that temp and heating the house this way works fine for us. 
I had a forced air wood furnace for 20 years before the WG - we ran it the same way - never an issue.  I will not trust a wood burner to be left alone.  I can live with the possibility of minor huffing if I am home, but will never allow the WG to run by itself when no one is home - call me paranoid.  If it wasn't in my basement it would be different.


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## Pontypool (Jan 7, 2015)

Ooops - forgot the pic of the filter zone - red pump on lower right and the stainless cannister.  The copper lines come from the main loop down to the Grundfos 15-58, then to the filter cartridge, thru a flow gauge, ball valve (green handle visible) does a 180 degree turn back toward the pump then elbows up at the pump and returns to the main loop.


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## avc8130 (Jan 7, 2015)

Yes, I have one circulator pump and 5 zone valves.  Any time a zone calls for heat, the pump is triggered and runs as well as that zone valve opens.  When no zones call for heat, the pump is not running and all zone valves are closed.

I like your tray fabrication.  I NEVER open my rear door.

ac


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## Pontypool (Jan 8, 2015)

MORE seal leaks.............  last night I noticed the large thick round steel plate which covers where the oil/gas burner would attach is oozing brown stinky stuff.  There is a 1/2 inch thick white (something like compressed Roxul insulation) seal between the mounting surface and the plate.  I noticed it was kind of browning last weekend when I was trying to solve my stink problem, so I carefully smeared 2 coats of high temp silicone from the mounting surface, across the seal to the cover plate all the way around.  This morning I noticed there are jelly like bubbles of brown smoke (not really creosote) smelling stuff oozing out where the silicone meets the cover plate.  If you burst the bubble it is full of brown stinky liquid.  Should have taken a pic.  Anyone seen this before???????

I have reduced the stinky smell to the boiler room while the forced air heating is running, after I smeared silicone around the fan motor mount plate, but have not been able to completely eliminate the smell.  Yesterday after the system was off for 8 hours (but still at 140F) I came in the house to a strong smoky/creosote smell.  I accept with any wood burning you will always have some smoke release in the house, but the house should not stink.

I checked my ash pan last night, nice fluffy super fine powder in there, no creosote.  Checked the SS chimney liner, a light grey powder film, no creosote; checked the horizontal run to the chimney - some powder, some small chunks of charcoal - no creosote; checked the refractory tubes - powder & some charcoal - no creosote.
Muncybob - I am finding the same in my horizontal run to chimney (about 10 feet) getting some ash and some 1/4" to 3/8" charcoal bits.

I have adopted your method Muncybob & AC of absolute minimal rear door opening.  I will clean tubes from the front (did this last night - first cleaning) and as long as I can see the rear door looking through each tube from the front, no reason to open rear door.  Should help protect gaskets also.

I am thinking it is probably beneficial to leave a thin layer of ash in the larger refractory tube right under the center bricks to protect the refractory from the direct blast of the flame - does this make sense?   Does anyone do this?

Ac - have you had any issues with zone valves (sticking, failure, short life, noise)?  I want to use these also for small heating zones, wondering what to expect.

Pic of my woodpile - split size.  Rack sections are 4 x 8, front is just over 7 feet high, pieces are cut to 23 1/2".  With my old forced air wood burner I would use 3 1/2 of the 5 sections per year.


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## muncybob (Jan 8, 2015)

Don't know what to tell you about the oil plate since I have the oil burner attached. There is a plug you can put into the front of the boiler for the oil "hole", not sure if that will help. When I had the oil burner off for cleaning I inspected inside the boiler oil area and it was cleaner than I expected to see...hardly any residue and certainly nothing wet.
When I clean the tubes I take out as much as possible with the tool. I don't see why leaving a small layer of ash would be a problem though.
Since you are getting small bits in the horizintal pipe run you want to watch the nozzle wear closely. A few years ago I tried to stretch my nozzle another season and because of that I wound up with some hot stuff in the pipe that had a small fire going. I now replace the nozzle every other year and this summer will have a SS plate fabricated to put on top of the AHS nozzle to perhaps get me another year.


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## Pontypool (Jan 8, 2015)

When you say nozzle - are you refering to the slots in the center brick?

I am always hearing small pieces of charcoal bouncing around in the cyclone and maybe the 30 inch vertical pipe running out of the cyclone - I assumed this was normal.

Whenever I check the fire or add wood, I gently rake the sloped edges of the refractory to direct the coals toward the center brick - like it says in the manual  - some smaller pieces fall through.  Should I not be doing this?

I read some earlier posts where people had said they made 1 inch thick steel center bricks or another had used cast iron - can't find any later posts to see how that has held up.  So you are buying replacement center bricks from AHS?

I am thinking that if this is going to be an ongoing (expensive) thing, to make up some steel bricks but with wings (or shoulders if you like) that would not only sit on the shelf but also on the top of the refractory, about 1 inch on each side to better distribute weight - would also protect the edges of the center trough.  I had read in those posts about possible damage to the shelf.  I am thinking if they were steel, if they wear I can always mig weld some patches on the steel.  I have a small mig welder, but I am not schooled in welding.  I am not good at welding, but I have become very good at grinding.


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## Fred61 (Jan 8, 2015)

I experienced that terrible creosote smell with my Wood Gun and found the biggest contributor to the odor was the combustion air intake box. The combustion air does not get preheated and causes creosote to condense on the motorized damper and drips into the box creating a puddle of the nasty stuff which smelled up the whole house. With my EKO the combustion air is preheated by having the air duct within the boiler. Snap open the box and look for a puddle of ooze.


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## Pontypool (Jan 8, 2015)

Thank you for that Fred61 - that never occurred to me, have not looked in there. Will check that out tonight.


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## avc8130 (Jan 8, 2015)

I run the plug in my oil hole.  

No problems with zone valves here (I hope I didn't just jinx myself). *knock on wood*

Honestly, I can't remember the last time I actually CLEANED my lower area.  I check it, but the side tubes are always just about empty and the middle barely has anything on the bottom.  Most of the time I see coaled wood that made it through the nozzle in there.  I leave it and figure it burns to ash and then flies out through the tubes.  You do NOT want ash in the refractory.  You don't want to insulate the refractory.  You want it to get as absolutely hot as possible.

I do collect A LOT of ash in the bottom of my masonry chimney.  My flue run goes up from the cyclone ~4', then over 2' horizontal and then connects to a standard masonry chimney.  I have a cleanout door at the bottom of my masonry chimney, and I collect ash in that like a second cyclone.  

I don't think you are gassifying well.  What are your flue temps?  I have a feeling your method of operating the boiler isn't making a coal bed and you are really just "burning" the wood rather than gassifying.  This creates a lower flue temp than designed and you are condensing your flue gases in the boiler trying to heat the water.  

I'm in my 3rd winter on my original bricks.  20+ cord through.  Honestly, they barely look worn.

ac


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## maple1 (Jan 8, 2015)

Pontypool said:


> I accept with any wood burning you will always have some smoke release in the house, but the house should not stink.


 
Not all wood burning units release smoke into the house. The only time I get any smoke release at all is if I forget to open the bypass damper before opening my door, and even then it doesn't release smoke every time I do forget.


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## muncybob (Jan 8, 2015)

Our nozzle is the center brick with the slots. About 16 cords is my absolute limit but I'm probably changing it out sooner than that just to be safe. When I do change it I will always do it in the off season, much easier with a cold boiler. I've read some people having decent results with 1/4" stainless overlays. When I get my next set of nozzle bricks I'll have one made.

We have no odor at all in the house and only a faint smoky odor in basement where the boiler resides. I could not say this until I finally got all my leaks sealed. The exhaust hood above the loading door also helped.


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## Pontypool (Jan 8, 2015)

I am going to have a look at my nozzle bricks before I fire up tonight. 

I am sure you are right that my method is not ideal - no arguement there.  I seen one of InfinityMike's videos where basically the coals filled the entire refractory sloped area to where the metal walls become visible.  I never have that much coals - usually only a couple inches to the sides of the center brick - so I should have the center brick covered in 4 or 5 inches of coals all the time?  I have been going according to the manual and the advice of Mike Purnell that there should not be any real accumulation of coals, that the heat from the refractory is supposed to "cook" the wood to provide the gases to drive gassification.   I do find the unit has a much louder "roar" when the unit is up to temp and the wood being burned is on top of a thicker bed of coals.

Last night when I cleaned the tubes there was very little in the side tubes and about an inch for about a foot in the center tube, coals mixed with ash.

When lighting I use Mikes method of holding a propane torch to the black coals - usually takes about 30 seconds to have a bed of red coals and kindling burning well.  My cheap magnetic stove pipe thermometer says about 340F.
I bought an infrared temperature reader today - will be checking actual cyclone temp tonight.

Sounds like you (Muncybob) had basically the same issues I am having  smoke/stink.  You start with the obvious - the doors - once those are sealed you look at the other holes (oil flange, fan motor-2 seals, cyclone -2 seals, ash bin, smoke pipe, fresh air-Fred61).


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## infinitymike (Jan 8, 2015)

Your splits look to be a good size for the WG, and based on that picture, it looks like the side wall of a 2 story house and not a 1 room apartment you are heating, I am still blown away that you can keep the house at 77* and only use 5-6 pieces of wood a day and are about 500 miles north of me. How many sq ft is that? It must be super insulated.

I am heating a 1951 house that has 720 sf of heated finished basement, 1500 sf of 1st fl and 500 sf of 2nd fl.
Yes it is poorly insulated, especially the first floor attic. I keep the 1st fl at 70* during the day (5:30am-11:30 pm) and set it back to 67* over night, I keep the 2nd fl at 70* from 5:30 am-8am then set it back to 67* until 9pm when it bumps back to 70 untill 11:30 when it sets back to 67*.
Last night it was around 7* outside and I loaded the WG to the top with large splits (7x7, 8x8) at 10pm at 6am it was empty, had a thin layer of red coals and was at 150*. I loaded it about 3/4 of the way with smaller splits 3x3, 4x4, 4x5 at 11am it was empty and at 160*, I filled it 3/4 of the way again and at 4pm it had a good bed of coals and some bones of the splits left.
This thing is eating wood like a termite on steroids.

So I say all that to once again say I am blown away with your fuel consumption.


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## infinitymike (Jan 8, 2015)

To address the bed of coals.

Its best to keep the refractory as hot as possible which will occur with a good bed of coals. There is a thin line where to many coals, probably the amount in my video, that will cause a problem with getting air down into the gasifaction tube. But too thin a layer and "cooking" the wood becomes harder.

I think I have found the balance of when to reload so as not to have to many or to little coals. But, for me its not always that easy.
Also be careful NOT to let to much ash collect on top of the refractory inside the fire box.
It will insulate the refractory, which will reduce its temps and also I have noticed it clumps together and almost forms a concrete layer that can clog the nozzles.


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## Fred61 (Jan 8, 2015)

Mike's post made me go back and look at your woodpile. Those splits are big and you stack wood like machine. Looks like you squeeze 1.5 cords in a 128 cu ft. space. Are you sure it is able to dry when stacked so dense. If your wood is too wet that could affect the coaling rate of the splits.


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## infinitymike (Jan 8, 2015)

Fred61 said:


> you stack wood like machine.



Yeah, its perfect. pretty nice looking


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## avc8130 (Jan 8, 2015)

Fred61 said:


> Mike's post made me go back and look at your woodpile. Those splits are big and you stack wood like machine. Looks like you squeeze 1.5 cords in a 128 cu ft. space. Are you sure it is able to dry when stacked so dense. If your wood is too wet that could affect the coaling rate of the splits.



Could also be his source of all that moisture...

ac


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## Pontypool (Jan 9, 2015)

Sorry guys, the house in the pic is my neighbours house.  I'll post a pic of mine from the back - to show the sunroom which looses MORE heat than the entire second floor (based on 2 different professional heat loss analysis).

Front part ground floor of my house built in June 1900, back - main floor 1974, second storey 1998, sunroom 2008.
Rectangle footprint about 1100 sq ft, so above ground about 2400 sq ft (there is also a small room off the front) plus we heat the entire uninsulated basement.  I have renovated and properly insulated most of the house.
It has been  -11F last few days - did not really change heat demand much, maybe one extra full size split and a 4 inch round.
Standard day for me - load 2 splits in the morning with what is left from the night (usually a full, charred split).  Re-load around 6 pm - usually 3 more splits with a charred split, then usually 1 split around midnight.  I always have fairly intact charred pieces when re-loading, never burned right down.

So I have this cool temp gun ($30) and I'm measuring everything.  Last night I got home after a 9 hour shutdown. 
Boiler wall 135F, refractory 210F.  Attached some pics from cold and refiring.  About 5 minutes into the re-fire I took multiple readings with the red dot on the center brick hole - getting 1047 F then the gun goes crazy because temps are over its maximum.  Also determined my AHS supplied boiler temp gauge is 10F low, my cheap magnetic thermometer is quite accurate from multiple readings - my cyclone temps stand - never go over 340F according to the gun.

That wood pile is basically 2 seasons burning and is always filled - we put the seasons wood in the basement in October, then refill the rack.  So one year I take from the front, next from the back - all my wood is seasoned a full 2 years (2 winters) and it sits in the basement where it is dry.  Definately sure my wood is dry & properly seasoned - moisture meter consistently reads 14 - 19 %.  Ha ha - if you like that wood pile I should include a pic of the one in the basement - it is like artwork - next week - hahahahaha.

So this morning I go to check the WG, it is cycled off, so I use the purge timer - only the second time I have used it.
Crank it to 15, green light, rake, load 2 splits and a tiny round - there was one charred 6x6 split left from last night, close door, go out to shovel the 6 inches of snow we got last night.  Come back in 40 minutes later, check WG - OMG  TEMP IS 223F   -----   WTF????  Does the purge timer over ride the operating limit (set at 190F)?  My high limit is set for 210F.   Had to burn my underwear.  And this happened with the main fan coil on and a baseboard zone.  Can anyone splain that?   Not intending to sound like a broken record, but this is why I will not leave it running while I am not home - just too many random events.  Also had another medium explosion last night, WG cycled on after cycling off 20 minutes earlier under full fan coil load - thats the second time - running out of underwear.


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## Fred61 (Jan 9, 2015)

Where's the center plug? I assume you just removed it to take the photo and replaced it when the photo shoot was over. I hope! It's always a good Idea to run the tip of your chainsaw down the length of any round that you do not expect to split. That scratch will cut the drying time of the unsplit piece in half.


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## Pontypool (Jan 9, 2015)

Fred61 -"I experienced that terrible creosote smell with my Wood Gun and found the biggest contributor to the odor was the combustion air intake box. The combustion air does not get preheated and causes creosote to condense on the motorized damper and drips into the box creating a puddle of the nasty stuff which smelled up the whole house. With my EKO the combustion air is preheated by having the air duct within the boiler. Snap open the box and look for a puddle of ooze. "

I am attaching a pic of my fresh air box from last night - it is not too bad I think.


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## Pontypool (Jan 9, 2015)

Yes the plug was just removed for the pic, never run without it.


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## Fred61 (Jan 9, 2015)

Pontypool said:


> I am attaching a pic of my fresh air box from last night - it is not too bad I think.


That's clean. So I guess you can keep searching. If I come up with any other thoughts I'll post.


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## muncybob (Jan 9, 2015)

My limit is also 190, but I have seen it creep up high enough that I cannot restart manually until there is a call and the temp lowers. Did your purge timer go down to zero? I find that I have to be sure it is actually "ticking". I'm surprised you had a backfire after being down 20 minutes, I can go about 12 minutes on a short cycle and be fine.

Your oil tube has a lot more accumulation than I ever got. The plug or some other way to seal that may be a good idea for you.

Door seals and pipe seams must be completely sealed to avoid the smell. This includes the seal around the ash pan. This year I had my pipe seams welded so I can pull the horizontal run for a mid season chimney cleaning and not worry about opening up a silicone seal (mid season cleaning is probably overkill but it 's easy and fairly quick). It seems to have helped me I guess since as I stated previously I have no smell in the house and just a faint smoky smell in the basement.


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## muncybob (Jan 9, 2015)

One other thing I forgot to mention, if you are using an infared gun to read temps on SS or reflective pipes it will not be accurate.


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## avc8130 (Jan 9, 2015)

Your rotary timer for the purge "stuck".  

I hate that stupid thing.  I hardly use mine.  If I do, I always make 100% sure it is counting down before I walk away.

I can see your WG is older.  The new ones are definitely wired so that ALL power is killed when the high limit aquastat is triggered.  Do you have a high limit aquastat?

ac


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## infinitymike (Jan 9, 2015)

Even if the rotary purge time "stuck" the unit would shut off with the High Limit Aquastat.

His Hi limit is set for 210* so a 13* over swing is nothing to worry about.

I've seen overswings of up 20 almost 25*. Not often, but it has happened a few times.
No big deal.


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## Pontypool (Jan 9, 2015)

Funny you should mention that. No, the timer did not go to zero, it stopped a bit short.   What is the point of having a timer if I have to stand over it to make sure it finishes?  When I cranked it initially I stopped at 3, it started ticking, while I was loading it ran out of time so I cranked it to 15, it did not tick.   I wiggled the knob, then it started.

I have had backfires twice after a 20 minute shutdown.  My fresh air duct goes into a steel pail - makes a heck of a THUMP  when it happens.

Yes - I think it wise to plug the oil burner tube.

My ash pan gaskets were put on completely wrong.  The ones on the short sides both missed the cyclone frame.  When I removed them to reposition them, they would not stick again.  The top and bottom were barely making contact
so I removed them all siliconed them in place and put a skim of silicone over them.  I was getting dust trails on the shiny black cyclone, but now it stays clean so I think it is sealed.

My 24 ga SS vertical off the cyclone is welded at each end and machine pressed at the seam - so I never siliconed that and never gave it another thought.  But hey, it can't hurt - will do that this weekend, one more thing I can eliminate.
The infrared will not work on the SS, but I was thinking today I could proably just put some black marker dots and shoot those.  Will try tonight.

Why are you taking down your pipes?  Why not run a chimney brush down the pipe covered with a tied on rag to loosen all the soot, then run an extended shop vac hose hose down to clean it up.  You could have a mirror on a stick if there is a bend.   That is my plan.  I have a 45 degree bend at 5 feet, then 4 feet to the chimney.  My pipes are insulated to avoid shielding - heavy - so I don't plan to ever take them down - also very messy - I use to do the take down thing with my old wood burner for 20 years - no more.  If there is no creosote in the pipe it should be real easy to clean.   Pics of my pipes.


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## infinitymike (Jan 9, 2015)

I'm sorry, but I am still baffled on how you can keep the house at 77* or 70* at night and only put that small amount of wood in there.
Amazing, absolutely amazing.


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## infinitymike (Jan 9, 2015)

Some WG owners have welded flat stock on the inside of the ash pan to make a channel and stuffed a rope gasket in there.
I'm sure with your metal fab skills, it would be an easy fix.


Who has a pic of their modification?


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## Pontypool (Jan 9, 2015)

Yes I have quickly developed somewhat of a hate for the purge timer.  The first time I used it, it didn't occur to me to observe how long it had been shut down for - probably less than 15 minutes.  When I turned it - BOOM!
The second time was this morning.

I have a dual function aquastat on the front corner above the handles - actually you can see it in the pic I just posted 2605.  One part is the high limit, the other part is the low temp shut off.  Bought my WG new from AHS in Oct 2009, but have only started using it Dec 17 2014.  I think it was probably the high limit that shut it down - as per Mikes post - but really,  13* over?    What scares me is getting the fluid beyond 212F  - think I will lower my high limit to 200F since that really means 213F.

Since I am new to boiling - really hot fluid in a confined space, under pressure scares the cr*p out of me.   Maybe just a matter of getting used to it, you guys have been using the WG alot longer - you can read the manual all you want but it is no replacement for actual experience.


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## Pontypool (Jan 9, 2015)

Well Mike, honestly, not making this up - heating DHW also, but only for 2 people.  Keep in mind I am burning Hickory which has more btu's as it is dense - heavy, even when dry.  I had tweaked my old forced air wood burner to run using the same method (off when I'm not home) and using the same amount of wood, except the house was ALWAYS 80F or more and we had the bedroom window open so we could sleep. 
Again - no bull here - it was not unusual to have 210F at the plenum directly above the wood burner.
The difference between the wood burner and WG is that now my basement is nice and warm, the old one could not heat the sunroom at all while the WG keeps it at 70F, and the DHW, but about the same amount of wood.

I like the ash pan idea, 3 channels are already there, only need one across the top, should be easy enough.


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## infinitymike (Jan 9, 2015)

Water really doesn't boil at 212* if the pressure is right.
typically in the boiler as the water temp rises so does the pressure, reducing the ability to boil.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/boiling-point-water-d_926.html


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## avc8130 (Jan 10, 2015)

infinitymike said:


> Some WG owners have welded flat stock on the inside of the ash pan to make a channel and stuffed a rope gasket in there.
> I'm sure with your metal fab skills, it would be an easy fix.
> 
> 
> Who has a pic of their modification?











Stuff that with a nice rope gasket.  MUCH better than the stick-on crap.

ac


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## avc8130 (Jan 10, 2015)

Pontypool said:


> Yes I have quickly developed somewhat of a hate for the purge timer.  The first time I used it, it didn't occur to me to observe how long it had been shut down for - probably less than 15 minutes.  When I turned it - BOOM!
> The second time was this morning.
> 
> I have a dual function aquastat on the front corner above the handles - actually you can see it in the pic I just posted 2605.  One part is the high limit, the other part is the low temp shut off.  Bought my WG new from AHS in Oct 2009, but have only started using it Dec 17 2014.



The timer is just like every other rotary timer, it needs a minimum turn to engage.  I think it says right on it to "turn past 3".  You admitted you turned it right to that initially.  

Whenever I use the timer, I turn it all the way to 15 and make SURE I hear the ticking.  Then, when I go to leave, I make sure it is at <15 (it should have been counting down afterall) and still ticking.  

2009, eh?  Is that SS?  It's odd because it has a flat roof in the wood chamber.  

ac


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## muncybob (Jan 10, 2015)

I rarely leave that purge timer unattended. For me it is used just to turn on the boiler for a reload, but I try to catch it for a reload when it is running already. If she is not running I turn the timer to open the air intake, stuff with wood and manually turn the timer off before I walk away.

The taking down of the horizontal pipe is done so I can get my Soot Eater into the bottom of the chimney for a cleaning, otherwise I do use a Shop Vac with a piece of pvc attached to clean the run after I have scraped any small clinkers that may be in there(which is rare but I want to be sure I don't catch my vac on fire!). The ash tray mod is a good one and one of these days I'll get to it.


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## infinitymike (Jan 10, 2015)

avc8130 said:


> 2009, eh?  Is that SS?  It's odd because it has a flat roof in the wood chamber.
> 
> ac



Mine is a 2011, SS and has a flat roof.
what shape is your roof?


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## infinitymike (Jan 10, 2015)

I can't remember the last time i used the purge timer. I always reload when it's running due to a demand.


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## avc8130 (Jan 10, 2015)

infinitymike said:


> Mine is a 2011, SS and has a flat roof.
> what shape is your roof?



Maybe it's a 100 vs 180 difference?  My roof is curved.

ac


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## infinitymike (Jan 10, 2015)

avc8130 said:


> Maybe it's a 100 vs 180 difference?  My roof is curved.
> 
> ac



I like it, you can stuff more wood in there.


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## avc8130 (Jan 10, 2015)

infinitymike said:


> I can't remember the last time i used the purge timer. I always reload when it's running due to a demand.



Same here, and it really is the best plan.  I ONLY use the purge if I'm running out the door or going to bed and NEED to load the boiler right then and there.  Realistically, it's not that tough to align reloads with the natural cycle for me.

ac


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## avc8130 (Jan 10, 2015)

infinitymike said:


> I like it, you can stuff more wood in there.



With a 180, I rarely need to use the space above the door height.


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## infinitymike (Jan 10, 2015)

avc8130 said:


> With a 180, I rarely need to use the space above the door height.



Well Ponty doesn't seem to need much space in his 100, with only 5-6 splits a day, he doesn't even get to the top of the door.


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## Pontypool (Jan 12, 2015)

Nice work on the ash pan AC - I can see myself doing the same.

"Stuff more wood in"  ?????   Seriously????  Just how much wood exactly are you guys burning??  Before this conversation started I was thinking I was burning more wood than I should be (hence the cyclone heat recovery idea). I actually put a larger load of wood in Saturday night after having the WG down (down to 120F) all day to replace the rope on the blower motor seal.  I used 5 smaller splits and some small rounds-just thrown in - fired at 6 pm, wood was gone by midnight - so for me, I am thinking giving the Wg more wood is not extending the burn time.  From my years with my old forced air unit - I place my wood in the chamber tightly together in a triangle, split sides facing down and out (towards the walls) touching well in the middle so the fire cannot get to the piece on top - basically positioning the wood so it will NOT burn, it still does, but less surface area burning at the same time.  The fire has to work its way through the wood instead of from all sides.  With my forced air the object was to get the fire burning around the outside where it heated the walls and preventing the "core" from burning by fitting the pieces together so the fire stays on the outside of the bundle, makes a huge difference on how long the bundle lasts - old habits die hard - I have been doing the same with the WG although that may not be the recommended way.

Struggling to find tubing that I can wrap around the cyclone AND the 6" stove pipe.   Refrigeration copper is quite rigid (probably overkill) stainless gas tubing (like my chiller unit) would not be trustworthy with pressure and that much heat. Toying with using rigid 3/4" tube and going up and down on the 6" pipe but thats plan B if all else fails.

According to my purchase docs from Oct 2009 my WG is a E100 SS - that's all I know - maybe they sent me an old one - old stock???

Purge timer - I did turn the timer to 3, but then turned it to 15.  It counted down to just before the end point, then stopped - no worries, not using that again - just a bad design, could be improved - not well thought out.  I totally agree with just loading when the unit is firing anyway - by far the best way, and safest.

I sealed everything I could find, stove pipe seams, blower motor, taped the fresh air seams - still have a smoky smell - ARRRGGG!  I will solve this eventually - but frustrating.

Some pics - re-roping the blower, my basement wood, the stinky bubbles (which have stopped)

Black marker did not work on the SS stovepipe for the laser temp reader - so I dabbed on some dots of the wifes black craft paint - seems to work ok now.  The cyclone temp actually varies widely.  When firing it is 330F at the top but only 165 at the bottom.  So I am looking at wrapping the 4" connector tube, top few inches of the cyclone and the 6" stove pipe for heat recovery.

The AHS rope was done well - except the ends.  Looks like it was cut with a dull knife, not joined at all - no wonder it was leaking.

What is a soot eater?  not heard of that.


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## Fred61 (Jan 12, 2015)

Pontypool said:


> I sealed everything I could find, stove pipe seams, blower motor, taped the fresh air seams - still have a smoky smell - ARRRGGG!  I will solve this eventually - but frustrating.


Previously you were describing the smell as a creosote smell and not a smoky smell as stated above. I think they're different. I always had a smoky smell with my WG. It actually smelled like a coal burner. You're more than likely much younger than I so you wouldn't understand the analogy but it was the same odor that would come from the steam locomotives.


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## Pontypool (Jan 12, 2015)

The smell is not as strong now so maybe I have solved some of it and the rest is disipating to a lighter smell - I don't know ?????   It is not the nice smokey smell of a wisp of campfire on the breeze, it is a raw, nasty smokey / almost creosote kind of smell.  If I stick my nose in the hood I can always smell it there, but not so much from the lower front door.  I have the loading door so tight it is hard to close - still with the original silicone gasket, so I am having a hard time to believe the loading door could be leaking.  I am still getting a chemical/paint kind of smell from the front and back plates - I assume from the paint off-gassing ( also was much stronger when first firing) - I am sort of waiting for that to taper off to make it easier to identify the smoke smell.  Yeah, sorry, cannot identify with coal burning smell - have not experienced that.


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## muncybob (Jan 12, 2015)

Sooteater is a way to clean the chimney using a drill:
http://www.amazon.com/Gardus-RCH205...UTF8&qid=1421090114&sr=8-1&keywords=sooteater

sorta like a weedwacker for the chimney.


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## Pontypool (Jan 12, 2015)

Ahhhh - slick - never seen that before and price is good too.  I'll see how cleaning goes in the spring - never cleaned SS pipe before, might get one of those too.

Found some soft general purpose copper tubing today to wrap the cyclone & stove pipe $30.  It is only 3/8" OD, but thin wall - 50 feet - not sure if a Grundfos 15-58 could push fluid through such a narrow, long run.   Will have to test.  could split into 2 parallel runs..................stay tuned..............


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## avc8130 (Jan 12, 2015)

It's really hard to quantify how much wood we are burning unless we weight it AND know the species well.  

I put wood in my boiler 3x per day.  Once in the morning to get me through the day in my unoccupied house (7AM, expected to last 11 hours).  Once in the evening (6pm, expected to last 5 hours), to really heat the house while we are home and awake.  Once before bed (11pm, expected to last 8 hours), to make sure my family has a comfortable house to sleep in.  

The amount of wood I put in is calculated in my brain based on the weather forecast and what I expect from it.  Generally the daily load is lightest (especially if it will be sunny) and the night load is heftiest.  The evening load depends on if I'm playing "catchup" from the day load being too light, if we plan to bathe the kids and wash dishes, etc.

I wouldn't be surprised if my daily usage isn't about equivalent to 2 of your loads.  For whatever it is worth, I burned 7.5 cord last winter.

ac


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## infinitymike (Jan 12, 2015)

Yeah, I'm with AC on this one.
Its hard to quantify how much wood any of us put in our units based on number of splits, it really needs to be weight or at the very very  least volume with species type.

I made the mistake of splitting VERY small in the beginning and still have about 14 full cord of the skinny stuff. Just this year  I switched my splitting size to a much larger size.

I fill the box to the top (with skinny splits) at 10pm.
it's close to empty at 8am, I fill it 1/3 of the way and let my wife add some pieces as needed through the day.
then fill it to top again at 10pm


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## infinitymike (Jan 12, 2015)




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## Pontypool (Jan 13, 2015)

WOW MIKE!   That is one HUGE pile of wood!  and nice wood - looks like maple & oak.   From AC's pics earlier I see you have huge (wood) piles also - I gather you both have your own forest to cut from.  You are very privileged to have that much wood available and so much space to store it.  Thank you for the video.

I agree it is hard to quantify how much you are burning - like you are showing in your video Mike, that small stuff will burn up faster.   I have not (in my whole month -almost - of WG burning) put anywhere near that much wood in my WG.  That one load is more than I burn on a cold day.  If I may humbly suggest - please don't be offended - your wood looks nice and straight, maybe try stacking the wood, kind of tightly bundling it in the WG so there is less air space (surface area), so it is more like one very large piece of wood in there, leaving a gap all the way around the outside - not touching any walls - it should give you about the same heat but burn much longer - just a suggestion to try, maybe save some wood - it is how I always loaded my forced air wood furnace and I have carried that over to the WG.  I am very into burning as little wood as possible as I don't have the equipment you guys have or the space to store alot of wood.  I cut mine from standing trees with a Stihl 028, a chopping maul and wedges, and haul it home with a GMC Sonoma S15.

My burning schedule is very similar to what you are describing AC - EXCEPT - I load only enough for a decent fire in the morning, bring the house solidly up to temp (78) let the WG naturally cycle off, then power down everything for the day.  If it is no colder than 0F the house will stay above 68 until 6pm and I have burned no wood.

I took some pics - basically my full days burning for yesterday.  Our daytime high was 14F and overnight minus 12F.
When it is cold like that we keep the low temp (sleeping & away) at 72, regular temp 78-80F.
In the morning there was still lots of coals so I added a 4 inch and a 2 1/2 inch round just for some flame.  They didn't really burn by the time I powered off the boiler so they are still intact and are under the large piece on the right in the 6pm (catch up) photo.  For whatever reason, my cheap camera will not capture flame or red coals as my pics look like the wood is not burning, especially the 11 pm pic, but you can see the red reflecting in the door frame.  Those 2 pics are my full wood load for yesterday, there was nothing left but a bit of coals this morning, but my fluid temp was still high (170F).  My wife was up before me, turned up the thermostat and did not realize there was no fire in the WG as nice warm air was coming through the floor vents.

Still figuring out this infrared temp reader.  Adjusted its settings for the type of material it is reading - now getting temps closer to 400F (like Muncybob) on the cyclone - hard to know what is accurate with this thing.  I am looking for fittings today and hope to get started on the cyclone heat recovery loop this weekend - every time I see my magnetic thermometer on the cyclone go over 300F I cringe at all the heat I am losing up the chimney.


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## infinitymike (Jan 13, 2015)

Thats the key to your success.
You shut it off all day and night and only have it running to bring house up to temp and then let it drop in temp.
My house is so poorly insulated that I would drop way more than 10 degrees overnight and my outside temps are no where near yours.
I also maintain 70* all day so I need to keep the WG on.
I tried a 5 degree set back overnight from 70 to 65 and the unit still burned almost a whole box of wood over night just maintaining 65*
Plus it takes so much longer to bring back up the 5 degrees and maybe even more wood.

That is an old pic from a year or two ago and I try to pack it as tight as possible like you suggested.
This winter I have been loading a 1/4 box of the small splits and than stuffing it with those large splits and yet still burn it all up.

Glad you have a good efficient rhythm.
I hope once I get some real insulation in my walls and attic and even change my heat emitters I can do the same as you.


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## avc8130 (Jan 13, 2015)

I don't cut wood on my property.  My buddy is a tree guy and he brings me logs by the truck load.  That is privilege.  Having the space to store it and process it is earned and paid for with hard work.

Your house is clearly very efficient.  No way I could heat my house with the amount of wood you show in those pics at the temps you say.  

The math really doesn't support that turning the boiler on/off like you do and letting the temp drop is really more "efficient".    How LONG does your WG run to burn that load of wood?

What is the length of those splits?

ac


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## Pontypool (Jan 14, 2015)

No arguement here AC - probably using close to the same "weight" in wood with the day time off time as (as you mentioned yesterday) you have to play catch-up if the house cools.  My photo of the 6 pm load is my catch-up - it will heat the house to 80F and last until 11pm - at that time, if it is colder than -10F (as it has been for the last few days) I add a load like the second pic - if it were more like 0F or balmier I would only add the two smaller pieces in pic 2 - that would hold at 70F all night and leave enough coals for a fast re-light in the morning.   Most mornings I add pieces 2 slightly smaller than the small rounds in pic 2 - thoroughly heat from 70F to 78F let WG cycle off naturally with all demands met, then power down. 
At night, once the house is thoroughly warmed to temp (not just the air warmed) I dial my forced air fan speed back almost to the stall point so there is always a slight bit of warm air coming from the floor registers - uses very little heat and saves electricity.
My wood is all 23 1/2 inches long.  My wifes job in the bush is, once I fell a tree, to start at the stump with a marker and marking rod and mark off each cut - makes it much faster for me to cut and pieces are uniform.  I have terrible eyeball measurement.

I am still hoping to make my WG more efficient - I think there is room for that.  Got most of the supplies for my cyclone heat recovery EXCEPT - cannot find an aquastat that closes (turns on) at 180F AND is rated for a bulb temp of at least 500F - this is becoming a problem - could be a stopper - well no, there is always a McGyver, but it sure would be nice to just find the right aquastat.

Also - I have been trying to figure out how I could have an LED indicator on my main floor panel, to light when the start/run switch is in the "start" position.  Not sure what part of the circuitry to tie into to get an on/off -  I have forgotten to switch it a couple times now.   Anyone done this?

I am having an LED indicator light when the combustion fan is running (blue wire bundle & white wire bundle in the main box) - sometimes we cannot hear it on the main floor - as I only reload that way now.


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## maple1 (Jan 14, 2015)

I'm not sure how directly it can be related to the operation of a WG, but I have found efficiency gains by not making a fire on until the house starts losing temps, timing that with the period of day the demand is the most, and not charging storage up as high. What that does is keep the return water to the boiler at the minumum for as long as possible (thereby scrubbing more heat from the fire), and reduce standby losses from keeping everything hot for longer. So Pontypool might be seeing some reduced fuel consumption by not keeping his boiler fully up to temp all the time (less heat up the stack or radiating from it, while 'asleep'), and getting the most heat he can into the water when he does burn due to the lower overall return water temps from the more active loads.


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## Pontypool (Jan 14, 2015)

I gather many of you do not have your boiler "in" your house but rather in a room separated from the house where heat radiated from the boiler and near boiler piping will not naturally disipate into the living space?.  Pros & cons for everything - you probably don't have the stink problem I have, and regular cleaning is not as much of a concern (the mess).  I cleaned the tubes  & ash tray last night - what a @##%%^!! mess - every door/port you open, ultra fine dust spews out into the room and becomes air bourne.  Well that's in my basement and travels.  On the flip side, the only heat loss I have is what goes up the chimney.  Any radiant heat loss is heating my house which is also why I always allow the WG to cycle off nayurally before I power off.


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## Green Mt Heat (Jan 14, 2015)

Pontypool My WG is in my house, below my bedroom in the garage. Whenever I load the WG or clean the cyclone or tubes I open the garage door to let out the dust or smoke. I am working on building a smoke hood to minimize the dust and smoke.  Things were pretty interesting the first few months while I was learning how to run the WG. Lots of great help here


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## Pontypool (Jan 15, 2015)

Sounds like it is still - more or less - separated from the rest of the house - I am used to seeing built in garages insulated and drywalled to prevent auto fumes/fire from infiltrating the rest of the house.    When I say basement I am meaning an open unfinished basement, no walls/doors, no drywall, no ceiling. 
So how often do you load, how much wood per load, and what type and size of wood?  and how dry?


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## maple1 (Jan 15, 2015)

Mines in our basement. Open & unfinished. Not a WG though.


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## muncybob (Jan 15, 2015)

Ours sits in our basement on a concrete floor...basement is made of 4 stone walls about 110 years old. Exterior doors and down 3 concrete steps to bring wood in and about 12 wood steps up to the living area. I always have the smoke hood running when cleaning and most of the fine fly dust goes up it and out the side of the house. There is still a bit of dust accumulation so I run the ShopVac every other month or so. Unless you stand by the basement door in the kitchen area and really take a deep sniff there is no odor in the house. My friends thought I was kinda weird because initially I would ask them every time they came to visit if they could smell anything other than my dogs in the house...just in case I had become immune to any smoke smell.


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## Green Mt Heat (Jan 15, 2015)

Yes My WG is under my bedroom in my garage. The garage is insulated but not finished off. During the learning curve I experienced many huffing/ puffing episodes where a fair amount of smoke found its way into my bedroom, not good. Everything stunk like smoke it was terrible. Since then I have learned a lot about the WG and life with it is much better.

I load the WG about twice a day, once in the AM when I leave for work 7:30-8:00 and again before bedtime 9:30-10:00. I do add a few pieces when I get home from work around 6 PM. I listen to the weather and base the volume of wood that I load based on the temperature for the burn cycle. It's been cold here the last couple of weeks 5-10 below at night and low teens during the day. I have a 6 cubic ft wheel barrow that I fill about 1-1/2 times per 24 hours. This is much less than my old conventional natural draft boiler which would have to be fed like a locomotive during these temps. I am heating about 2200 sq/ft w/ 6" walls and 12" in the attic. 3 zones of baseboard and all of the dhw.
The wood that I am burning was most of the issue with the learning curve last season. It was well seasoned wood for my old boiler that sprung a leak in the fall of 2012. Small splits and 20" long w/ very low moisture less than 20% which I have learned the WG does not like. I did process about 4 cords this year of 24" large splits 8-10" from the advice of the other WG owners here. A big help, WG runs much better, I still have about 4.5 cord left of the smaller wood which I mix with the 24" stuff. I am
looking forward to using all large split 24" wood next year with a higher moisture content.

I have no other gassifier experience other than my WG and I have to say that I am amazed how efficient this unit is considering the age of the design. Wow 25 years ago Eshland was able to get wood gas burn temps over 1800* and 4' from the cyclone I can hold my hand on the stove pipe that is awesome! I don't know how much longer my WG will last but I will never go back to a non-gasser again.


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## Pontypool (Jan 16, 2015)

HAhahahaha lol - Muncybob - I have been asking everyone who comes to the house the same question, some say they don't smell anything - I think they are just being kind.   My smoke smell is getting better since I sealed the seams on the single wall smoke pipe & replaced the rope on the blower motor.  There is still a smell on the main floor when the Wg has been off all day and there is no air circulating, but much more bearable now.  I have a manual make-up air vent beside the boiler, I open that then turn on the smoke hood always before I open the loading door as any smoke release goes up into my living room.  I consider managing smoke releases totally normal if you are burning wood although I gather some appliances will release more than others, and it is more significant to some then others - like those of us with the WG in the basement.

More words on huffing - I think we all have slightly different experiences due the wood types, seasoning, possibly chimney draft and make-up air - I am not having any more issues with huffing since I started burning my "good" wood.  I always separate the stump cuts and difficult to pile stuff and make a separate pile in the basement to be burned first during the lower demand part of the season.  This stuff will not stack well so when loading into the WG there will be more (InfinityMike) surface area.  Because my wood is seasoned a minimum 2 years (the stuff I am burning this year is seasoned 4 years - 3 years indoors) it is quite dry 14-20% - so if I have too much surface area I get huffing that even closing the damper will not stop.  I believe it was MuncyBob who is running with the damper at 3/4 closed - I am doing that now also.  My experience with Hickory is that fire does not spread on it like it does with maple and oak (I burn a bit of that - collateral damage when I am felling) but it burns quite hot - as long as I load it as a bundle I have no issues.  My (limited) experience  with WG is telling me there is nothing wrong with dry wood as long as splits are large, you load it properly to keep the surface area to a minimum and keep that fresh air in check.   Large splits resist heating up (gassing) so they burn slower - you have less surface area per pound of wood.
Large splits don't last longer just because there is more wood, it also because they heat up slower so they don't gas off as quickly.
I have been burning as my only source of heat since 1990 - my experience has been that dry wood is ALWAYS best.  We all know wood does not burn, heat causes gasses to be released and the gasses burn.  The wetter the wood is (even with the WG) the greater the percentage of energy from that piece of wood that will be used to heat and evaporate that moisture from the piece of wood before it will heat up to gassifying temperature before it will "burn".    Try burning a damp piece if newspaper, it will burn only where the flame is applied because the flame has to evaporate the moisture first.  When the moisture content of the gasses becomes low enough, the paper/ink gasses burn.  So to burn that wet newspaper you need to add a constant heat source and use that energy too and you probably will not get any heat from the burning of the actual newspaper.  If it was a dry newspaper, you need only a moment from the other heat source to light it, that tiny bit of flame will cause the chain reaction of heating, gassing  & burning and the whole newpaper burns rapidly and generates noticeable heat - it is the same with wood.

From everything I have read and my experience this is just a fact of physics so - I am probably going to get some darts thrown at me for this but - I am thinking burning wetter wood to reduce huffing is going to cause you to burn more wood because basically you are reducing the efficiency by throwing (absorbed) water on your fire so it will not burn so intensely.
Sometimes with my old wood burner, when lighting a fire near the begining of the season, I would get a hissing and foaming at the cut ends - these pieces would not really burn until the hissing and foaming was done and sometimes, if there was not enough kindling, the fire would go out because there was not enough heat to dry out/heat up  the piece so it gas off and "burn".  All the energy from the kindling was wasted.  Also - and this is a big one - wetter wood generates alot more creosote (which is basically moisture filled smoke - wet smoke).   I am guessing (but I don't know this) that if your wood is wetter that you might start getting creosote outside (downstream - starting at the cyclone) of your WG burning chamber - just a hunch - I am extrapolating here.
Before I purchased my WG, Mike Purnell gave me a list of WG owners I could call - I spoke with 5 or 6.  One guy was from Canada - he was felling and burning as required in winter.  His WG would not burn unless he left the door open - he had 3 chimney fires in the first season.  One other person (from the US) told me that they also had a chimney fire.
Pretty sure a chimney will only catch fire if it has creosote, pretty sure ash has nothing left to burn.
Explosions - that's another topic, I still get random explosions.
Nuff said, get out the darts.


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## Pontypool (Jan 16, 2015)

Pontypool said:


> I have been trying to figure out how I could have an LED indicator on my main floor panel, to light when the start/run
> switch is in the "start" position. Not sure what part of the circuitry to tie into to get an on/off - I have forgotten to switch it a couple times now. Anyone done this?


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## avc8130 (Jan 16, 2015)

Ponty,

What do you want?  You just want a light to come on when the start switch is in "start"?

That portion of the controls are 110V so all you need to do is run wires right off the switch in parallel with the aquastat.  Use a light bulb or a 110V LED like those used for indicator lights on the WG.

I've often thought about replacing the start/run switch with a latching relay setup so the boiler would go into "run" automatically once the temp was high enough.

ac


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## Pontypool (Jan 19, 2015)

It has been a couple weeks since I looked at it but the problem went something like this.
The start/run is an on/off switch which simply completes the circuit when the low temperature cut-off breaks the circuit (the circuit which operates the damper and blower).

Once the low temp has been satisfied (temp is above 150F) both terminals on the start/run have power, no matter which position it is in so it will light the indicator no matter if it is in the start or the run position.

What I am trying to accomplish is to have an indicator light which stays on ONLY if the switch is in the start position
and - this is the trick - even when the low temp is satisfied.

The reason is so if I forget to switch to run, an indicator (on the main floor) will stay on to basically say "hey putz, you forgot to switch to run". 

Before I looked I thought the start/run would be a 3 way switch, but its not.  This is a little trickier than it looks like.


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## avc8130 (Jan 19, 2015)

Easiest way would be to swap the switch out for a DPDT switch.  Then just wire up your light bulb to the new set of terminals.

ac


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## Pontypool (Jan 22, 2015)

Was doing my weekly ash clean out last night, noticed my center bricks (I have 2 - a long and a short) are cracked down the center  - right through - don't want to remove them in case they come apart.  I have only been using the WG since Dec 17 - feel like I am re-building the whole unit - door gaskets, blower seal, cyclone gaskets, op-limit differential not working
properly, temp gauge off by 10*, center bricks are not "wearing" at the nozzles but cracked right dowm the middle, and when I removed the center tube plug a piece of the (the corner of the main slot) refractory fell off.
Starting to seriously re-think this purchase - there may be a WG E100 SS coming up for sale - I was looking to make my life easier - so far the WG has only made things more difficult - not a happy camper.


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## maple1 (Jan 22, 2015)

Not sure if you mentioned earlier - did you get this boiler new? Or used?

And I'm not sure of centre brick arrangement, and we have totally different boilers - but one of my top refractories (horizontal, forms 1/2 of the divider & nozzle between the primary & secondary chambers) cracked a couple months after I started using mine. I have done nothing about it - it has stayed put after another 2 years of use. If that matters.


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## Pontypool (Jan 22, 2015)

Bought the boiler new in Oct 2009 from AHS, but didn't fire it until Dec 17 2012.  It was kept in my basement - dry.
I guess that makes me feel a little better - but wow, just one thing after another.  This thing cost me $10K to buy plus $2K to get it to my house (shipping, customs ) - my expectation was a little higher.


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## muncybob (Jan 23, 2015)

I doubt the center crack will affect anything but it probably will fall apart when removed. When you first starting using the WG did you start with a few smaller fires to help dry out the refractory? Although I would have thought it should have dried out since 2009? Other than the door gaskets(a now known design flaw by AHS) I am at a loss for the other problems as you are the only person I've hear from with those situations. I guess at least you can take some small comfort in knowing that by now you will have all the possible bugs worked out?


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## maple1 (Jan 23, 2015)

I don't think new refractories will dry out a whole lot just by sitting - and they do indeed need a few small starter fires to complete the drying/curing process. I think my boiler was packed on its shipping pallet for quite a while before I got it to where I could make a fire on in it - like over a year - and I couldn't believe the water that came out of it the first couple of small burns. Damage or significantly shortened refractory life would very likely result from burning full speed from the get-go.


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## Pontypool (Jan 23, 2015)

All the plumbing for my WG was completed at the beginning of the heating season this year (September) but there were some finishing touches so I was heating with a regular forced air natural gas furnace.  I was running my circulators while the gas furnace was running, circulating fluid through the hot/cold coil in my main duct.  In effect I was "stealing" heat from the forced air system which (after about 2 hours running) would heating the entire hydronic system up to 120F - including the WG - that should had done some drying/curing.  I did have small fires 3 days in a row before putting in larger loads - but then I have never had more than about 4 pieces of wood in my WG at one time.   If I can get a reasonable offer on this thing, I am thinking to go to a natural gas, condensing, modulating boiler.


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## Fred61 (Jan 23, 2015)

Most, if not all of the Wood Gun owners posting here are happy with their units or have taken the intricacies of the Wood Gun in stride. I, on the other hand, had everything that could go wrong with a wood boiler happen to my WG. From door gaskets to refractory breakdown, odor, explosions, condensation, fire in flue pipes, etc,etc. I suffered for eight years and finally the thing that put it out of service was the firebox rotting through which will not happen on yours because mine was carbon steel. In a sense it was a blessing since it relieved the suffering although the financial hit was painful. If I had natural gas available I would switch to it in a minute especially if your heating load is as light as it appears.


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## Pontypool (Jan 23, 2015)

Well Fred61, I have also had most of what you listed - nearing my limit on patience.  This thing is consuming all my time at home.  I have posted pics above of my wood supply - would like to use up the stuff in the basement - much harder to go back up the stairs than it is to throw it down.  From a quick initial look-see, it look like n-gas boilers cost about half of the price of a WG - (what I paid).   Sooooo...... if I can get enough for the WG it may cover the cost of a n-gas unit???? - don't know, obviously would still be a loss, but what is the cost of "suffering" with it?
I gather many of the other WG users who are taking the WG issues in stride are in a similar situation where n-gas is not available.  I am still confident that going to a boiler from a forced air wood furnace was a good choice - just that the WG was not such a good choice for me.

.


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## infinitymike (Jan 23, 2015)

Ponty

Hang in there bud, it will get better.
Now, first let me say that we shouldn't _have to _take the intricacies in stride, especially paying the money we did, BUT, taking anything in stride is my key to a somewhat serene life.
I try not to sweat the small and big stuff.

My first year was the most difficult and discouraging and I wanted to rip it out and get whatever the local scrap yard would give me.
BUT, I hung tough, too it slow and things began to work and run better.
True, that I didn't have the problems you had.
The problems I had were puffing and explosions.
Both of which I have solved.
I have the EPA plug in one of the lower tubes, I have the intake damper at 3/4 closed and I only load half a box of skinny splits and the other half with larger splits.
The explosions are solved by a delay timer relay set up that AHS sold me for $100.
It kills the power to the cycle timer (for what ever time you set it for, I set it for about 24 minutes) after the unit was running and then shut down.
This means the the gases can dissipate and the cycle timer can't turn the unit back on and ignite the gases.

I have NO issues with gaskets, fan seals, cracked refractory, op limit differential, etc.

There are times that I still get upset with smoke out of the stack that fills the yard, but again, I have resolved that (somewhat) by when and how much I reload.

Maybe I don't feel any of the other issues because mine is in my attached garage.
So any smell or smoke from huffing or opening the load door doesn't effect me.
My stack is 10' long coming straight off the top of the cyclone, so any ash just falls back into the pan.
I empty that every 1-2 or 3 days tops.

Maybe the Wood Gun should be sold as an outdoor boiler that needs to be in an outside structure and not in a house.

BUT there are MANY if not ALL  WG owners who have them in there house and are taking it all in stride.


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## avc8130 (Jan 23, 2015)

If all you really need are 4 pieces of wood to heat your house in a given day...and you have natural gas available...you were absolutely nuts to jump all the way to a wood boiler. You'd burn so little natural gas in a modern setup that I can't imagine it is worth ANY hassle to burn wood.

WRT the Wood Gun...I'm surprised you are having so many issues.  Mine has given me some initial lessons, but once I got used to running it properly, it's been "add wood" since.  

I've never had door seal issues, in fact all 3 of my doors are still at their factory adjustment settings.  

The only "failure" I've had was the intake damper.  That wasn't really AHS's fault, and they are battling with Honeywell to get me a replacement spare under warranty.  

I wouldn't be surprised if most of your troubles weren't caused by how you are trying to run the WG.  It wasn't really designed to be run the way you are running it.  It's a "high mass" boiler.  It was intended to be maintained at "operating" temperatures.  Starting cold every day is probably causing condensation and creosote while the refractory is coming up to temp.  

Most Wood Gun owners I've spoken to have the best luck by just heating their house.  No games, no funny t-stat settings, just set the house to the temp you like and put wood in the boiler.

ac


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## 711mhw (Jan 23, 2015)

avc8130 said:


> If all you really need are 4 pieces of wood to heat your house in a given day...and you have natural gas available...you were absolutely nuts to jump all the way to a wood boiler. You'd burn so little natural gas in a modern setup that I can't imagine it is worth ANY hassle to burn wood.
> 
> Most Wood Gun owners I've spoken to have the best luck by just heating their house.  No games, no funny t-stat settings, just set the house to the temp you like and put wood in the boiler.
> 
> ac



Yup.


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## Pontypool (Jan 26, 2015)

For the moment, I am still hanging tough.  So Mike, now that you have huffing under control, have you considered removing the EPA plug just to see if you can run the WG without it (and without huffing).
The thing I don't like about the solutions being offered by AHS is that they are selling you a highly efficient boiler, but it won't run properly so they give you solutions that bring it down to the same efficiency as ordinary wood burners.
Burning wet wood (higher moisture content - whatever you want to call it) and plugging tubes has to be lowering your efficiency, causing you to burn more wood.  It has to take longer to heat the refractory if the super heated gases are only travelling down one side - no?
I am all about burning efficiently - from what I have seen - many of you guys have some pretty good equipment for mass producing/handling your wood - I do not, so the less wood I am handling - the better.  That was the idea behind getting a highly efficient wood boiler.  Also - up to and at the time I bought my WG - natural gas prices were going up rapidly - now they are starting to go down because both Canada and the U.S. are developing vast reserves of the stuff - who knew - not me.
As we determined much earlier it this thread, I don't have a cycle timer - my explosions are partly the result of an improperly installed (possibly malfunctioning) operating limit (OL).  My OL it set for 30* differential but I actually get about 14* (but its hard to tell because the tridicator supplied does not read correctly).  I went to order a new OL, the guy at the supply place told me to first check the electric grease in the well to see if the probe is making proper contact - there is no grease - it is dry.  I took it apart, added some I had (not exactly the right stuff) now  I am getting closer to 25* differential - I should not have to be doing this.  I figure the shorter cycle time fromthe 14* actual differential was not allowing the gases in the chamber to stabilize before the next cycle - so random BOOMS.
The plan was to be heating my garage (a separate building) which would add to the heat load - but I have spent so much time dicking with this thing, I have not got the garage all plumbed yet.
Keep in mind (AC) - my cold starting fluid temp is about 130-140F - so not really "COLD", but definately out of fuel.
The refractory is still well over 200F so relighting takes very little time.
Look at the pics I posted of my gaskets AC - how do you explain that - that was from less than 7 days burning.
What could I be doing to cause that?   I am not having any condensation or creosote issues at all.

Whatever was going on with the stinky bubbles, stopped a few days after I siliconed the oil burner port seal, have not had that since.


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## avc8130 (Jan 26, 2015)

Ponty,

The EPA plug actually SLOWS the burning of the wood in the upper chamber by not getting 1/2 of the refractory as hot to "cook" the wood.  The other side is still rocking hot so no trouble with efficiency there.

Getting a proper 20+ differential will solve your BOOMs.

130/140 is good.  That's about where mine gives up if the fire goes out or I forget to add wood.

Your gaskets are the wrong ones.  Lower doors need to be rope, not silicone.  Of course they failed.  The silicone isn't rated for the gassification temps.  If your boiler came like that, contact AHS and see what they say.  Remember it has been 5 years since you bought it and I think the company has changed hands although most of the same guys still work there.

ac


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## Green Mt Heat (Jan 26, 2015)

Ponty,

I bought the EPA plug from AHS and have been running it in the left tube for a whole season. I has helped with the huffing greatly. I know that the bulk of my issues is still the wood that I'm burning left over from my old boiler as I have stated in earlier posts. BTW all of my gaskets are silicone probably the originals and the only time there is smoke leaking is when the unit is huffing. The only leaks are the very bottom of the fuel door where the silicone is worn and damaged. I empty my cyclone about ever 3-4 days but I nave about 7' or so of horizontal run before the chimney so I do collect some ash there as well. The WG is not perfect but all in all I have been happy considering I got mine well used. Many times I just shake my head thinking how is it possible that this thing could be that efficient but yet so simple. I can easily get an 8-10 hour burn if my house is already up to temp. I was ready to give up on the WG too but I just kept pushing on until I was able to make some improvement. Just keep asking questions and describing the symptoms, there are a lot of smart folks here that have a lot of experience with running gassers.


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## muncybob (Jan 27, 2015)

When I got the plug from AHS I was told to alternate between the 2 tubes for even wear.

The silicone gasket in my rear door was shot after 1 season. Replaced with the high temp rope and still in good shape.


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## infinitymike (Jan 27, 2015)

Green mountain,

I think you said you wanted to fabricate a smoke hood.
here are the dimensions of the factory smoke hood.
it mounts to the 2 top bolts.
I have an E100, not sure if yours is wider.


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## infinitymike (Jan 27, 2015)

In my opinion the hood could be deeper then the 9" more like 12" and the 3" vertical could drop down as close to the door as possible, maybe 5 or 6"


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## Pontypool (Jan 27, 2015)

First - I will agree with you Green Mt Heat - some smart folks here & I have benefitted greatly from being part of this forum & hope I can give back something that will help others from my experiences.

I have been checking my newly replaced rope gaskets (lower doors) weekly to see how they are performing - there is no wear - still have silicone on the loading door - adjusted numerous times - thinking I finally have a good seal.   Green MT Heat - I am baffled how you can be still running silicone - mine were noticeably scorched after the first fire (which was a smaller, short fire).
I have not contacted AHS about gaskets, temp gauge, op-limit becuase of the reason you stated - it was just over 5 years from delivery to first burn - I wouldn't expect anyone to replace things after that time elapsed, my fault for taking so long.

Does anyone know if their op-limit probe has electric contact grease inside the immersion well ???
Apparently when you buy the op-limit  from Honeywell it comes with a squeeze pak of this grease. It is to prevent corrosion and promote good contact between the well and the probe.  I am fiddling with my op-limit hoping I can get closer to 30* differential without having to buy another as they cost $125

AC - in this case(epa plug), when I am refering to efficiency, I am suggesting that because one tube is plugged, the WG has less surface area to absorb heat, less heat transfer to your fluid - more heat going up the chimney.  Of course, I have not tested this - if I was running the plug I would test to see if the exhaust tube (to the cyclone) was hotter than without the plug, and try to average mentally (over a number of burns) from cool 140F to 190F the time and fuel it takes.  I know this is not going to be exact given wood & outside temps but if there is enough of a difference I think you would notice.

I still maintain that burning higher moisture content (translation - wet ) wood is a bad solution which I would expect to cause creosote beyond the burn chamber, and noticeably greater fuel consumption.

So I am throwing the question out there - anyone who is burning 20% +++ moisture wood - Are you getting creosote in your smoke pipe or chimney?

From what I am reading here, the taller your vertical off the cyclone - the better.  Mine is only 3 feet, then T's to horizontal.  I am getting small coals (like MuncyBob) in my horizontal smoke pipe (which runs 10 feet) and in my chimney cleanout.  Not really worried about this as I only have super fine ash beyond the WG - do not see any creosote whatsoever - so nothing to catch fire.  Pretty much constantly hear a couple small coals bouncing around in (what sounds like) the cyclone and vertical pipe - I assume everyone is getting that.  I get minimal ash in the horizontal, but a small accumulation falls to the chimney cleanout.

Hood - I have turned my fan exhaust port to face back (over the boiler) so I am not hitting my head on it - simply remove 4 bolts, turn fan, rebolt.  I posted a pic (only one I have). In the top right corner you can see the grey collar from the fan exhaust, then elbows up.  When I bought the hood from AHS the fan is mounted to the hood with the exhaust port pointing directly at your face so the first elbow would also be in your face.


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## avc8130 (Jan 27, 2015)

Ponty,

I'd still contact AHS.  They have been excellent to work with.  They might not be able to get you stuff "free", but they will certainly help you operate the system.

No clue if my aquastat well has grease.  Mine has worked well enough I've never worried.

The refractory is INSULATED from the water jacket.  So you aren't losing heat transfer.  ALL of the heat transfer occurs in the "swirl chamber".

I adjust my air intake damper based on flue temp right before the cyclone.  

I don't know what moisture content my wood is, but I get NO creosote other than in the upper fire chamber.

I have a similar chimney setup.  My chimney cleanout fills with ash.  I clean that out as a 2nd "ash pan" monthly.

ac


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## infinitymike (Jan 27, 2015)

I stopped checking the moisture in my wood, I get ZERO creosote anywhere except the firebox and thats Stainless so it should last longer then carbon steel.
The swirl chamber, the pipe to the cyclone, the cyclone and all of my stacks are creosote free. just a light layer of ash.
I must say, that I think I have the best stack set up for the WG.
It is a 10' vertical double wall pipe off the cyclone and terminates with a cap.
Maybe I turned my exhaust fan too, it faces the back.
I also took the switch off from where it was mounted and put it in a box with the low cut off override switch on the left side of the WG.
My WG is raised up on a 12" concrete pad. Which is nice because the load box is right at chest level.


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## infinitymike (Jan 27, 2015)

Oh, I reloaded the racks in the garage before the busted Juno Blizzard and didn't bring in any unseasoned big splits.
I get a very very light huffing with the very dry skinny splits even with the EPA plug.
I just loaded 14 splits  to fill the box, thats a lot of surface area.
I don't think the unseasoned part is so good but the large part is better to use all around.


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## Green Mt Heat (Jan 27, 2015)




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## Green Mt Heat (Jan 27, 2015)

Ponty,

The above pics are from today, as you can see the gaskets have seen better days but they do not leak unless I'm having a huffing issue. The only leak is at the bottom of the fuel door where the gasket is chard a bit. Also I have no idea how old this WG is or how much longer it will last, I figure I will just run it until it leaks which I hope wont be anytime soon...Knock on wood....That being said I am impressed that all of the components are still working, the WG is kinda like a tractor vs a BMW. Durable off the shelf components w/o plc's or electronics of any kind. I like that.  Like I said I have been running the plug for a full season and I would say (IMO)  there is difference in efficiency if you are burning wood under 20% .BTW I completely stopped worrying about efficiency after I saw Mike's video with the thermo coupling reading over 1800* in the refractory and under 400* up the stack! That is truly amazing for a design this simple not to mention the age of the design.  I have not alternated the plug from tube-to-tube because my left tube has one badly damaged refractory brick, its broken between the center and the left tube, therefor I just leave that side plugged.

Mike thank you very much for the dim's for the smoke hood. I picked up a used blower and with a little fabrication I think I can make something work.

I can hear the WG working pretty hard tonight supplying 3 zones as I write this from my bedroom as it is in the single digits with a pretty strong wind. Time to go feed it!


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## Pontypool (Feb 6, 2015)

So I have my first energy billings since starting to use my WG - and this is what is making the pains I have been having more bearable.  For 3 weeks of the 4 week billing period electric bill was down by $60, natural gas was down by $149 .......... so $206 for 3 weeks.  I would expect next month to be more as it was warmer in December than it has been in Jan - Feb.

I have been testing with heat recovery from the cyclone - so far I am only getting about a 3 degree gain on incoming - outgoing fluid. (see pics) I am circulating the fluid dead slow.  There is no gain without the insulating blanket.
The cyclone temps are always over 300F - cannot understand why I am not getting a better gain. 
Ideas anyone????

I have been testing different loading methods.  Note: my fluid temp never drops below 125 -130F. 

I have found that if the WG has been off for 8 hours - fluid 130F - house temp 70, outside temp 0 F - if I fire up with a "make-up" load of 3 pieces (like the pics I posted above - "6pm load") the WG gets the house up to temp (78 F) and starts cycling off after about 2 1/2 hours.
This week most nights have been well below 0 F and maybe 17F daytime.  I have been firing (from dead out, but refractory hot) with say 7pcs fine split 2x4  by 20inch kindling, then 2 pcs of 1 1/2 inch round placed on either side of the center bricks -get that roaring (vibrating) first - then I place one large split (half circle 10" wide 5 inch tall) right in the middle on top of the rounds.   That one split will slowly bring the house up to temp over basically the same amount of time (maybe an extra half hour) and will last just as long as the "6 pm load".  I add 2 more tiny rounds and
another large split at 11pm ( self ignites from coals & refractory) and that lasts until 6am when fluid will be 150F,
still on "run" but out of wood.  Throw in some kindling, tiny rounds, 1 large split away we go again.
MY conclusions - putting in more wood will bring temps up a bit faster, but the burn cycle will only be marginally longer.  The WG will burn up that wood in the same amount of time.  There will be much more coals at re-load time with more wood, but I am having no problem re-lighting at reload.  The WG fan is running longer, but I am sure that proper gasification is happening as there is no change in the ash in the tubes, no creosote and when it cycles back on it fires right up - roaring sound.
So..... it is a tiny bit more effort but for the entire last week, 0F to -12F nights I have used exactly 3 large splits and
6pcs 1 1/2 inch rounds and 4 fine split, 20 inch, 2x4's each day - that's it - period.  I will say I have to "settle" the large split about every 2 hours because as it burns there ends up being high spots so it doesn't make good contact with the
refractory - that would be a pain for some.
So - AC - this would be some justification for my "insane" choice - I have realized a $206 savings in utilities over 3 weeks and I am burning amazingly little wood. 
In my gas bill Enbridge just notified us gas charge increases have been approved - there is a big surprise- not.

If I can figure out how to make the heat recovery (pic) have even a 20F gain the $300 in materials and 3 days of labor I have put into it so far would all be worthwhile.  
Green MT Heat - I know you are impressed with the efficiency, but I believe the WG can do much better.  To me 400F going up the chimney is $$$$ and wood - which tranlates to more wood cutting /handling and more ash removal.

Sooooooo.... if anyone has any thoughts on making this work, hammer that keyboard.  I am going to take a run at it again this weekend to see if I can improve it.


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## maple1 (Feb 6, 2015)

Sorry if you already mentioned, but what is the fluid you are trying to heat with the cyclone? Is it the boiler water? Or a DHW preheat setup? And then what are the temps in & out?

There is very little direct contact between the cyclone & your copper tubing, so likely not a great chance for heat exchange.


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## Pontypool (Feb 6, 2015)

I have a filter zone which is a small pump taking fluid from the main boiler loop, filtering it (you can see the filter-in the yellow pail- in the pic - tried circulating with no filter, for volume) and returning it to the  main loop.  I have extended that so now fluid comes off the main loop to the pump, thru the filter, then thru the copper tubes and back to the main loop.  The purpose was to capture wasted heat from the cyclone, return it to the loop to be used where needed.  I do have an aquastat on that zone so it only runs when the cyclone is above 250F - the bulb can be seen in the pic - laying on top of the cyclone.  Temps in/out vary with the 25* differential of the operating limit but generally between 150F and 180F.  The "out" is consistently  2* more than the "in" - need to do better somehow - I would like to see the "out" being 20* more than the "in" - but how???.


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## maple1 (Feb 6, 2015)

I don't think you will get much heat out of the cyclone. Aside from the small contact patch of the copper (which then leaves the rest of the copper surface to radiate what heat is collected outwards), you don't have a very big temp differential between the cyclone and the copper (the bigger the temp difference the more the heat transfer), and also what heat you do extract from the cyclone will be from the layer of gases just inside its interior surface. I could be proven wrong, or course, but I just don't think that will work - I am actually kind of surprised you are seeing any temp rise, given there would perhaps be a greater tendancy for the heat to leave the copper to the air than then go from the cyclone to the copper.


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## Pontypool (Feb 6, 2015)

The temp of the cyclone is double the temp of the fluid - done right I am thinking I should be able to get a decent gain, not to heat the dhw, just to help support the main loop, reduce run time (wood usage) minimizing waste.

I am very successfully chilling 78F air with 55F water using my boiler fan coil and piping and my homemade chiller unit (see page 1 of this thread for pic) - yes chilling is a little different - but that also was a matter of getting enough surface area and the correct volumes.  I overkilled that one and it worked well right off the start with a few minor tweaks.  There is a will, so there is a way, I think.


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## infinitymike (Feb 6, 2015)

Pontypool said:


> So..... it is a tiny bit more effort but for the entire last week, 0F to -12F nights I have used exactly 3 large splits and
> 6pcs 1 1/2 inch rounds and 4 fine split, 20 inch, 2x4's each day - that's it - period.  I will say I have to "settle" the large split about every 2 hours because as it burns there ends up being high spots so it doesn't make good contact with the
> refractory - that would be a pain for some.







I am totally baffled.
If I used that little  wood, my house would never make it to 78* let only even make it to 68*.

I read this post and then my first floor zone kicked on. Its only maintaing 70* (not bringing my house up 8* like you do).
I knew that there was not much left in the firebox, basically a 2" layer of coals.
I said, let me try PONTYS WAY, I put a 3"x6"x24" split right on those coals, I was going to walk away but just couldn't so I threw a 2"x4"x24" split on either side.
Unfortunately, I didn't time it, but I came back later, maybe 45-60 minutes and the zone was NOT satisfied,  the coals were gone and there was only a remnant of the 3x6x24 piece left. I had to rake up what ever little coals were left and get some 2x4x24 splits to take off and then threw in 3 half circle splits about 3" tall and 6" wide by 24" long. Again, not sure how much longer, maybe 15 minutes and the zone satisfied and then shortly there after the WG reached OP temp and shut down.

You amaze me and probably ever other WG owner I know!

All HAIL the KING of WOOD GUNS.


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## muncybob (Feb 8, 2015)

Ponty, is the WG your ONLY source of heat?


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## Pontypool (Feb 9, 2015)

Muncybob - while the Wg is powered it is the only source of heat.  I have a 100,000 btu NG forced air furnace but it is powered off.

Mike - the splits you are describing are much smaller than what I am using, so you cannot compare that.
I documented my Friday night - Saturday heating.
Note for pics - my WG temp gauge reads 10* low (so 115F is actually 125F).


6 pm - WG has been powered down for 8 hours - outside temp 14F- house temp 71F.
WG is at 125F -pic - with the remains of a large split - cold out.
Pics tell the rest for the 6 pm load.


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## Pontypool (Feb 9, 2015)

So WG is fired, DHW load powered off, running forced air heating coil zone at 460 rpm (dead slow) and 2 boaseboard zones (46 feet in total) running super slow.

Forgot to mention on my Friday post that I use the occasional "cheater" - see pics if I check the WG and need to get some better flame going, I will tilt the large split and slide a cheater under one side close to the the nozzles.
From 6 pm to 10pm Friday I did add a cheater.  I use about 10 cheaters a week - which is one and a half large splits - split finely (so full disclosure here).

10 pmoutside temp still 14F, house temp 77, WG 169F.  WG blower has been running non-stop since 6pm.
Large split mostly burnt, Wg mostly up to temp, house heat demands mostly met - time to re-load for the night.
Within 45 min of re-load house zones are shutting down, dhw powered and met, WG cycles down. see pics.


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## infinitymike (Feb 9, 2015)

You've really got this down to a science in a short time,  good on you.  Very impressed.


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## Pontypool (Feb 9, 2015)

OK, good morning - its Saturday morning. 
Outside temp is 10.5 F, house temp is 71.5 (set back temp for sleeping), WG is 169F - wood is burnt but coals are very hot - still on "RUN" - no need to use "start".  Add kindling - self ignition.  Wait for some flame - add 2 cheaters and a smaller split - that will slowly (1 1/2 hour) bring the house back up to 78 and lasted until 2 pm - also satisfying DHW for showers and a load of laundry.  see pics.

Wood burnt this season shows the part pile (which was full likw the one behind it.  ALSO there was  another 1/3 of a row of odd splits & stump cuts - which caused me alot of grief with huffing.  That is what I have burnt since Dec 17 when I first fired the WG.
Still working on the heat recovery - still  looking for ideas


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## infinitymike (Feb 9, 2015)

Yes split size does matter, hence my video I posted earlier. All though I have no field experience with the large splits,  you, among other  with WG owners i know, are proving my theory.
It looks like a lot of what I'm burning would be considered  your cheaters.


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## avc8130 (Feb 9, 2015)

I've just been splitting larger and larger the longer I own the WG.  Pretty soon I'm just going to be bringing whole trees in and feeding them in slowly through the loading door as they burn.

ac


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## muncybob (Feb 9, 2015)

Pon ty, maybe I missd something along the way here(would not be the 1st time)...do you have your firebox "floor" lined with brick?


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## infinitymike (Feb 9, 2015)

avc8130 said:


> I've just been splitting larger and larger the longer I own the WG.  Pretty soon I'm just going to be bringing whole trees in and feeding them in slowly through the loading door as they burn.
> 
> ac




TRUE THAT!!


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## Pontypool (Feb 9, 2015)

Muncybob - my WG is factory original - did not add anything, no extra bricks.  What you see in the photos is the way
it was built - why do you ask ?  does my WG look different in the pics???

The beauty of larger splits with the WG is they can be as dry as you like - no huffing.
Mike - you may want to keep some of that small stuff for cheaters once you start using larger splits - all my wood is large so I am making cheaters with an axe in my basement - not really fun.  I find the cheaters are gone mostly inside of an hour when I slide one under a large split, but its enough to get the large split burning real good.  I get about 6 - 8 cheaters out of a large split, but like you have been saying - its all about surface area (I am listening)

I find that I have to check the fire more often when burning only 1 large split at a time, and have to randomly add cheaters as sometimes a single large split will just not really burn vigorously - usually after everything is up to temp and there is an extended off time or firing from cold (125F) and the refractory is not fully up to temp.  So it is a little extra work checking more often and "settling" the piece on the refractory occasionally - but it sure is saving wood,  and I can go a full 7 days and the ash pan is not completely full - bonus!  Keep in mind - the Wg blower runs a little more when only burning 1 piece, and will run 3 or 4 hours starting from cold, but my electricity bills are still much lower.

Worth noting also (or maybe not) my pics show my wood pushed back into the chamber - thats just so I can show the size of the pieces.  Before I shut the door, I pull all the real wood to the front so it is right against the door frame and make sure the nozzle at the back (under the air supply) is open and not covered - I basically don't use the last few inches at the back so air can get in.  Also I "fit" any pieces together so the fire has to burn thru the bottom ones to get to the top ones (saturday morning load pic), so basically that saturday piece was in there for 2 hours before it really even started to burn - cheaters got WG up to temp, cycle off, then larger split starts burning when Wg cycles on again, but in the mean time the larger split has been heated (cooked) without using its own mass.


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## muncybob (Feb 9, 2015)

It may just be me, but pic 2739 sorta looks like the nozzle has one continuous slot?


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## infinitymike (Feb 9, 2015)

muncybob said:


> It may just be me, but pic 2739 sorta looks like the nozzle has one continuous slot?


That's 2 long cheaters laying next to each other.


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## infinitymike (Feb 9, 2015)

Truth be told I have been burning the really big splits during the overnight.  I fill the box half way with the small splits and throw 2 or 3 large splits on top.


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## Pontypool (Feb 23, 2015)

Well, I am just over 2 months burning my WG, probably burned a full bush cord now - center bricks are done.

I have been making inquiries about what to replace them with.  Talked to Mike at AHS - apparently I have the "old style" which were not very good - really??? - looking at about $110 + shipping & customs - so probably about $200 for the new, improved bricks to arrive here.

AHS is also selling steel 5/8" replacements with wings to hang from the refractory and sit above the slot shoulders -  those are about $50 more and Mike says they don't last any longer than the regular bricks.

I met with our local steel fabricator, quite an experienced man.  He suggested steel brick will probably wear as quickly as refractory brick and there is a possibility, at gasifier temps, that the steel "brick" could distort enough to cause damage to the refractory slot.  Arrrrrggg.

Right now I am sourcing a diamond encrusted router bit so I can cut slots in regular (wood stove style) refractory bricks.
Looks like the bit will cost close to $100 locally and bricks are $2 each - need 3 for an E100.  If this were to work the second set of bricks I make (and all the ones after that) are basically free - compared to buying from AHS.
See pic for my layout - bricks in the pics are my spares I bought with my WG.

Has anyone tried this?  Any pearls of wisdom anyone can impart here would be appreciated.


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## infinitymike (Feb 23, 2015)

Pontypool said:


> Well, I am just over 2 months burning my WG, probably burned a full bush cord now - center bricks are done.
> 
> I have been making inquiries about what to replace them with.  Talked to Mike at AHS - apparently I have the "old style" which were not very good - really??? - looking at about $110 + shipping & customs - so probably about $200 for the new, improved bricks to arrive here.
> 
> ...




There's NO WAY you center bricks can be DONE with only burning for 2 months and just over a bush cord, which by the way, I have no idea what a bush cord is. I only refer to cords that equal 128 cubic feet. So if a bush cord is 20 times more than that , then you're ready for new center nozzles. 

Do you have a picture of the center bricks?

You only need to worry if the center brick is so worn that it is effecting the shelf they sit on.
AHS sells the steel plate for units that have worn out the shelf and can't support the bricks.


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## Pontypool (Feb 23, 2015)

Bush cord - a pile of wood measuring 4' H X 4'W x 8'L - so 128 cu/ft
Face cord - 4'H x 16" W x 8'L - 1/3 bush cord.

Tomorrow is my weekly WG cleaning day - I will take pics looking up from bottom.  Cannot remove or they will
fall apart.  May have another week or two, but they are done, every week they are noticably worse.  Yeah, I can't believe it either.   My thinking is to replace the center bricks BEFORE the shelf is affected at all as the refractory is a much bigger deal ( $ and time) than the bricks.  My understanding is the refractory cost about $750 so I am looking at $1000 delivered - minimum.


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## muncybob (Feb 24, 2015)

1 cord and the nozzle is shot!!?? Even with the "old" style nozzle I got 2 seasons which would have been about 9 cords.


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## maple1 (Feb 24, 2015)

Forgive me for not reading back through the thread again - but I believe this boiler sat for quite a while before it was commissioned? Wondering if the refractory soaked up a little more humidity than usual in that time (depending where it sat, maybe), then if fired hard before they had a chance to get rid of the moisture properly (from several very small fires) their life may have been shortened? Hard to figure how else they would only last one cord of wood.


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## Pontypool (Feb 24, 2015)

From page 5...........(with a few edits)....
All the plumbing for my WG was completed at the beginning of the heating season this year (September2014) but there were some finishing touches so I was heating with a regular forced air natural gas furnace. I was running my circulators while the gas furnace was running, circulating fluid through the hot/cold coil in my main duct. In effect I was "stealing" heat from the forced air system which (after about 2 hours running) would heat the entire hydronic system up to 120F - including the WG - that should have done some drying/curing - you could feel the warmth wafting out of the burning chamber and tubes - I did this for weeks. I did have small fires 3 days in a row before putting in larger loads - but then, I have never had more than about 4 pieces of wood in my WG at one time.
..............Also, the WG sat in my basement, from purchase to commission, which is dry (for a basement).

Also - since my post on Feb 9 - my green light quit- SERIOUSLY??? - good thing I have bad luck or I'd have no luck at all.

Sooooo....... no one has tried or knows of anyone using wood stove style firebricks for center bricks?

My understanding is that they are good for sustained 3000*F, designed to hold heat (very heavy) and design to withstand endless (maybe not endless - but alot) heating/cooling cycles.  The trick will be making the slots, then to see if the brick has been weakened too much.
Never know if I don't try, but was hoping someone already had some experience with this.

Still working on heat recovery from the cyclone - now on third try - working on a MUCH SLICKER design now - alot of work - if there is a way to do this, I will find it,  - pics will follow when I get that far.


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## avc8130 (Feb 24, 2015)

Pics of the nozzles please.

My Green LED died a quick death also.  Inside my control box were 2 spare bulbs.  I put one in and it's been working since.

Try the fire brick, let us know.  My guess is that it won't handle the erosion as well as the refractory nozzles.  You could also try making a steel plate to lay over then nozzles.

My original nozzles are going through winter number 3, probably right around 24 cord (4x4x8).  I'll replace them after this year.  My old oil boiler required an annual $125 service...so far the Wood Gun has been pacing similarly to that annual cost.

ac


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## Pontypool (Feb 24, 2015)

I will check my control box tonight, but didn't see any leds (could easily be missed) when I was wiring it up.

I have no idea if refractory brick will hold up but even if it lasts a half season it would be far cheaper than the AHS bricks.  AHS bricks delivered - one set- $200  - fire bricks $2 each (buy them anywhere) and $100 for a diamond router bit - having one custom made for this purpose - ordered this morning.   I think its worth a try - nothing ventured - nothing gained.

If that works - these bricks are also readily available in 2" thickness for $2 - will measure the main tube tonight - one brick could also be easily carved with a $2 diamond grit 4 1/2" grinding wheel in an angle grinder to replace the plug when the time comes.  Mine loses a thin layer every week when I take it out to vac the tubes - I handle it like precious china.

Doing my weekly WG clean tonight - pics tomorrow.


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## infinitymike (Feb 24, 2015)

I'm on my second set of center brick nozzles.
I burned the winter of "11 and "12, the summer of "13 then changed them in the winter of "13,  probably 24 cord 4x4x8, 
I burned the rest of the winter of "13, the summer of "14 , the winter of "14 and now into "15,  probably 15 cord and they show very little wear.


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## Pontypool (Feb 25, 2015)

No spare LEDs included with my WG.

So I cleaned my WG last night - and changed the center bricks to the second set I bought with the original purchase.
I have burned since Dec 17 2014 - just barely over 1 full cord (bush cord that is-4x4x8 -its a Canadian thing).
I could not get very good pics from the bottom where the wear was the worst.  I removed everything without tools - it just came apart.


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## Pontypool (Feb 25, 2015)

I had to cut the small brick to get them to fit.  The dimensions were correct but they are so crooked - every side is different - that they would not butt up squarely.  Seriously - look at the bricks - thick & thin, different dimensions, the nozzles are not even close to center or straight?????  Not giving me any confidence when I see that kind of work.
$120 for such poorly made bricks?????
It was time to replace these - the small brick might have lasted a while longer, but the long brick was done.
I can squeeze and break it up with one hand.   Not impressed.  Makes me want no run out and buy some more -NOT!

Its all fine and well it they have changed the formula now, meaning they know there was a problem with the old ones.
Same with the gaskets on the doors, Oh, we don't do it that way any more.  When you spend $10k on anything, you expect to get some reasonable use before you start replacing things.  I am not considering this anywhere near reasonable.
As soon as I can make up my own center bricks, these ones will be coming out.  Hard to see in the pic but the slots are all over the place, some on a noticeable diagonal - the flame will be hitting the refractory shoulder in places - the slots don't run down the middle.  I already have one corner of the refractory deteriorating because one of the slots in the original bricks was on a diagonal, so the flame ran right down the face of the refractory shoulder.


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## avc8130 (Feb 25, 2015)

Ponty,

Just to add an outsiders view:

Had you installed the boiler and started running it remotely close to when you bought it, you would have experienced all of these "shortcomings" very early on and I'm sure AHS would have helped you through them.

I spent close to $10k on my boiler.  I put it into service 6 weeks after I bought it.  I have not had trouble with door gaskets.  My nozzles are on their 3rd winter.  

I agree your nozzles look pretty "shot".  Mine look NOWHERE near that bad after 20+ cords, so they MUST have changed the formulation for the significant better.

ac


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