# Oxygen starved fire or so it would seem



## skidud (Oct 17, 2010)

I recently installed a Napoleon 1400 stove in our dining room, which is off the back side of our house.  We built our home in 2004 and it is very tight.  I just tried to light our first fire in the stove a couple of days ago and had no success.  I'll start from the beginning to give you a better picture.  The stove was used one time by the previous owner.  Not his cup of tea, good for me, or so I thought.  I finished the installation about three weeks ago.  When I first finished it I went and opened the door and put my hand up along the top and could feel the slightest bit of draw.  I thought everything was good and looked forward to burning.  I started with some well cured small kindling and newspaper.  Nothing wrong with my fuel source or at least nothing that I can tell.  Instantly I had a room full of smoke.  I quickly realized that my wife had the dryer going and was quickly relieved to see that the back draft stopped the instant I cracked a window.  I got the kindling going, threw on a few small pieces of wood, opened the damper to full bore and shut the door.  Instantly, the fire started to die.  For the next hour I worked to get a decent fire going but every time I closed the door, the fire would quickly snuff out.  The instant I crack the door, you can see and feel the air rush in and the flames are renewed.  I don't get it.  I realize I'll need an outside air kit which I plan to install in the next few weeks.  My chimney in inside our home and goes straight up through my dining room ceiling with no bends, plus I could feel draw so I don't think it can be that.  I was starting to wonder if something didn't decide to nest up in the air passages while it sat in my garage all summer.  I do notice that going from full close to full open has very little effect on how well the fire burns, it seems to dwindle and die either way and maybe lasts a little longer with the control full open.  I don't know what to try next.  Any help or suggestions are greatly appreciated.


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## precaud (Oct 17, 2010)

Welcome to hearth.com. My suggestion is: I think you'll find that more people will read your posts if you organize your thoughts into paragraphs.


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## branchburner (Oct 17, 2010)

Assuming this is a masonry chimney. What is the size of your chimney flue? Is the stove connected to a steel liner, or does it just dump into the flue?


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## Battenkiller (Oct 17, 2010)

skidud said:
			
		

> I recently installed a Napoleon 1400 stove in our dining room, which is off the back side of our house.  We built our home in 2004 and it is very tight.  I just tried to light our first fire in the stove a couple of days ago and had no success.  I'll start from the beginning to give you a better picture.
> 
> The stove was used one time by the previous owner.  Not his cup of tea, good for me, or so I thought.  I finished the installation about three weeks ago.  When I first finished it I went and opened the door and put my hand up along the top and could feel the slightest bit of draw.  I thought everything was good and looked forward to burning.  I started with some well cured small kindling and newspaper.  Nothing wrong with my fuel source or at least nothing that I can tell.  Instantly I had a room full of smoke.
> 
> ...



Forget about what the fire looks like to you, sufficient flue temp is what is driving the machine.  

Put a thermometer on your flue pipe about 18-20" above the stove flue collar.  Be patient with your fire and build it slowly while you watch it with the door cracked.  When the thermometer reaches 500ºF, close the door and see what happens.  If it dies, something is wacky with the stove.  If you can't get it up that high with the door cracked open, something is wrong with your wood or your flue.


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## begreen (Oct 17, 2010)

How dry is the firewood (not the kindling)? It sounds like this is a pretty tight house, if so does it have a fresh air exchange system that runs continuously? It could be the stove needs an OAK, and perhaps drier wood.


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## woodgeek (Oct 17, 2010)

How tall is the stack?  Exterior chimney?


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## skidud (Oct 17, 2010)

branchburner said:
			
		

> Assuming this is a masonry chimney. What is the size of your chimney flue? Is the stove connected to a steel liner, or does it just dump into the flue?



It is a Class A with 6" flue.


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## Pagey (Oct 17, 2010)

One way you can do a brief test of the effectiveness of your air control: crumple up several sheets of newspaper (knotting them loosely can help them stay put), put them in the center of the fire box, and light them.  With the flames established, shut the door and latch it.  Now slam the primary air control shut.  The paper should die to a smolder.  Open the control to full air, and the flames should jump back to life.  Now, I'm not saying it's the most scientific or accurate test on the block, but it will give you an idea as to whether or not your primary air control is working.


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## skidud (Oct 17, 2010)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

> Forget about what the fire looks like to you, sufficient flue temp is what is driving the machine.
> 
> Put a thermometer on your flue pipe about 18-20" above the stove flue collar.  Be patient with your fire and build it slowly while you watch it with the door cracked.  When the thermometer reaches 500ºF, close the door and see what happens.  If it dies, something is wacky with the stove.  If you can't get it up that high with the door cracked open, something is wrong with your wood or your flue.



It’s doublewall pipe so I would guess the outer liner won’t hit 500 would it?  Either way, I know the inner liner wasn’t at 500 because I borrowed my brothers laser thermometer and shot a beam in through a vent slot in the outer wall.  I don’t remember what temp it was reading there but I know it wasn’t over 300 at the time I checked it.

Definitely something I didn’t realize was how long it can take to build a fire that is hot enough to close the door.  My only wood stove experience is with my parent’s which isn’t an airtight.


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## skidud (Oct 17, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> How dry is the firewood (not the kindling)? It sounds like this is a pretty tight house, if so does it have a fresh air exchange system that runs continuously? It could be the stove needs an OAK, and perhaps drier wood.


Definitely a tight house and no air exchanger.   If the dryer is running, it's back drafting like crazy until I open a window so I know I need an OAK.  But with the window open, wouldn't that have the same effect as an OAK?  Drier wood COULD be the problem but I'm really doubting it at this point since it burns well, or seems to be, with the door open and it should be seasoned by now.  Does wet wood require more oxygen hence making it harder to close the door and keep the flame?


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## skidud (Oct 17, 2010)

woodgeek said:
			
		

> How tall is the stack?  Exterior chimney?



Inside the home Class A with about 11' of stack length.


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## Pagey (Oct 17, 2010)

Wet wood will spend a lot of its BTUs boiling away the water.  In addition, the steam released can cool the gases inside the stove (that would otherwise get hot enough to burn), and it can serve to cool the flue gases, resulting in more creosote.


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## Swedishchef (Oct 17, 2010)

SKidud,

Welcome to the forums! There is a wealth of information, tips and different opinions which will be of great value to you. They certainly are for me.

The Napoleon 1400 manual doesn't really explain how to light a fire. Especially for someone who hasn't used an EPA stove before. I don't have an Napoleon stove but the manual for my stove certainly seems to be a bit better than the 1400s. Here's what my stove manual states for ignition:

" After making sure that the stove air intake controls are fully open (completely pull-out towardsyou), place several rumpled sheets of paper in the centre of the combustion chamber. Place 8 to 10 pieces of small dry kindling wood over the paper in the form of a tent. You may also place a few pieces of heating wood, but choose the smaller ones. No chemical product should be used to light the fire. Before igniting the paper and kindling wood, it is recommended that you warm up the chimney. This is done in order to avoid back draft problems often due to negative pressure in the house. If such is the case, open a window slightly near the stove and twist together a few sheets of newspaper into a torch. Light up this paper torch and hold it as close as possible to the mouth of the pipe inside the combustion chamber to warm up the chimney. Once the updraft movement is initiated, you are ready to ignite the stove by lighting the paper and kindling wood inside the combustion chamber. We therefore advise you to leave the door slightly opened (1/4") for a 10 to 30 minutes period, under supervision, in order to allow for good combustion. After this time, you must close the door and progressively adjust the air control to obtain the desired temperature.

I usually leave my door open 1/4 of an inch for about 5-10 mins and by then, the kindling of roaring.

You're right, a double wall stove pipe magnetic thermometer won't read 500. Purchase a probe thermometer. I have DW stove pipe and a probe. When I get the fire going, I warm up the temperature to approximately 400-500 and then start turning down the primary air flow. As the HOT gases go up the chimney, the chimney warms up. The warmer the chimney gets, the more draft you obtain. Hence why when you light the fire initially, leave the door slightly open for  a few minutes and let the fire crackle nice and hot. DON'T LEAVE THE STOVE. There's a chance you forget the door is open and can overfire your stove (and possibly burn your house down).

Lots of my in-laws have gone from what people call "smoke dragons" (pre-EPA stoves, toss in the wood and let er fly) to EPA stoves. It was quite the learning curve for them.

Good luck!

Andrew


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## skidud (Oct 17, 2010)

Pagey said:
			
		

> One way you can do a brief test of the effectiveness of your air control: crumple up several sheets of newspaper (knotting them loosely can help them stay put), put them in the center of the fire box, and light them.  With the flames established, shut the door and latch it.  Now slam the primary air control shut.  The paper should die to a smolder.  Open the control to full air, and the flames should jump back to life.  Now, I'm not saying it's the most scientific or accurate test on the block, but it will give you an idea as to whether or not your primary air control is working.



Good thought, I'm going to try that right now.  Thanks to everyone else as well.  I was up way too late when I posted my question so excuse me if it was rambling a little.  I forget about the time difference sometimes and didn't figure anyone would respond so quickly at that time of night.


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## skidud (Oct 17, 2010)

I just tried the crumpled sheets of paper test.  I lit it and closed the door with the air control closed.  It burned for maybe 20 to 30 seconds and then started to die.  I then opened the control up but it still died out about 10 seconds later.  I then cracked the door open to throw another match on it and it instantly relights itself and all the smoke gets sucked up the chimney.  I close the door and air control.  It goes another 20 to 30 seconds, it dwindles, I open the air control but it still dies.  Then I open the door and it relights itself again.  I'm baffled by this thing.


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## Pagey (Oct 17, 2010)

Definitely sounds like a negative pressure problem.  Can you post some pics of the exterior?  How high above the roof line is your Class A?  Does it have a screen on the cap?  Any obstructions in the way?


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## skidud (Oct 17, 2010)

Thanks for the good info chef.  I feel like if it isn't the stove itself, then it's got to be me.  I can't believe this is a wood moisture or chimney issue.  I was ready to try and start another fire but after my little paper test, I'm not so sure it would work.  Something has to blocking my air ways but I can't see any blockage at the little holes in the air tube thing at the top.  I also don't see anything at the slot in the bottom where the damper controls the air input.  I'm wondering about trying to blow a little air through that bottom slot with my little electric air mattress pump to see if I can feel or see anything coming out in the firebox.  This thing acts like it's not getting any air unless it's through the door.


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## skidud (Oct 17, 2010)

Pagey said:
			
		

> Definitely sounds like a negative pressure problem.  Can you post some pics of the exterior?  How high above the roof line is your Class A?  Does it have a screen on the cap?  Any obstructions in the way?



Sorry, my camera is in pieces right now.  It's about two foot above the roof peak which is about 8' away.  No screen but it does have a rain cap.  I don't believe there are any obstructions since I just put the thing up about two weeks ago.  Why would opening the door be any different than opening the damper in regards to negative pressure?  Is this something that the OAK would cure?


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## Pagey (Oct 17, 2010)

You may need another section of chimney.  You should be at least 3' above the roof penetration, and 2' higher than anything within 10' of the chimney.

http://www.fireplacesnow.com/smchinfo.asp
The chimney must extend at least 2 feet above any portion of any structure within 10 feet (measured horizontally) AND must extend at least 3 feet above the highest point of its roof penetration.


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## oldspark (Oct 17, 2010)

My summit will not start with the door closed period, I am sure some people remember my posts about this last spring, do not know if this applies to your stove but I get my flue temp up to at least 200 and then close the door. I have what seems to be a good draft as the stove works well after the start up so maybe you could keep the door open (a crack is all) until the flue is above 200 and then you can shut the door and it might work fine after that.


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## madison (Oct 17, 2010)

If the fire responds to the door opening and closing, than I would think you could rule out obstruction of chimney  But you could not rule out inadequate draft.

I would personally get the schematic (link below), and pull the firebricks out, and shop vac the interior of the stove, ash pan if you have it, and see if you can identify where the primary air enters the unit and make sure that it is not clogged with ash or something, as well as figure out if the primary air controls are indeed opening.

Otherwise, as stated above, inadequate draft, ie chimney height or chimney construction should be inspected.

Manual link: http://www.napoleonfireplaces.com/Tech/installation_manuals/EPA_Pedestal.pdf


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## oldspark (Oct 17, 2010)

To add to that I DO NOT have a problem with my draft but I still have to have the door open when I start a new fire.


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## skidud (Oct 17, 2010)

Oldspark, your thread is one of the first ones I read when I was searching and it along with what the chef wrote, had me thinking more about it being my issue as opposed to the stove.  I think I'll try and get a fire going again and leave the door cracked until I get the flue temp up.  I'll post back once I've tried that.  If that doesn't work, I'm going to look into some more chimney length, which I might add anyways if it's going to help.  Basically Pagey, what your saying is that my negative pressure is going to be so strong that the damper isn't enough air flow but opening the door is and that another length of chimney would help this?  Don't take what I'm writing the wrong way.  I really am baffled by this and am trying to get to the bottom of it.  I just want to make sure we understand each other.  Also, thanks again for everyone's quick replies.  I never thought I would get so much help so quickly.


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## Pagey (Oct 17, 2010)

Well, let me lay out this way and give you some food for thought.  Today's houses are much tighter, and that alone can make a negative pressure situation more common that it once was, perhaps.  Another thing to chew on is that modern, EPA certified stoves have a much smaller opening which flue gases pass through.  In an old stove, there was no baffle to impede the flue gases from going straight to the flue collar and up the chimney.  Now, my Lopi Endeavor features a bypass damper (in addition to the air control) that I can open.  This "bypasses" the baffle in the top of the stove and allows flue gases to go straight up the chimney.  A handy feature when lighting off a cold stove and when cleaning the flue.  But most EPA stoves have only the opening at the top/front of the baffle.  This alone restricts draft by limiting the air space.  Add to that a tight house and a potentially short chimney, and the effects may be multiplied.

Now, I'm not a dealer/installer/engineer.  So take what I say with a grain of salt.  But if you do in fact have a tight house and only 2' of chimney exposed above the roof line, it sounds like you're on the border with a strong negative pressure situation + marginal chimney height.


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## skidud (Oct 17, 2010)

Good to know.  Funny you mention your Lopi and the second control.  I was talking to my brother about my issue and he was saying how the Lopi he wants to install has that feature.  He wasn't sure why it needed two controls or what their purposes were.  I'm sure he'll be glad to know that he at least will have that advantage over me and hopefully won't hat the issue I'm having right now.


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## oldspark (Oct 17, 2010)

If it makes you feel any better there are quite a few people who have to start fires with the door open depending on the stove, I really like that feature on the Lopi.


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## Pagey (Oct 17, 2010)

I think a 3' section of Class A would be a worthy investment for you.

And yes, the bypass damper feature on the Lopi is indeed very handy.  I've started up a cold stove with it open and closed, and it does make a big difference having it open (just don't forget to close it, or you can easily overheat your flue).  And when it comes time to run the brush down the Class A, you just open it up and sweep the soot into the fire box.  The only downside I can see to it would be that perhaps over time, with the constant high temps needed for secondary combustion in the fire box, is that the damper plate or the yoke that attaches to it might warp.  I'm on my third season with the stove, and so far I can notice no difference in performance so it's clearly built well.


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## skidud (Oct 17, 2010)

Well the fire is cooking now and I'm gonna let it burn for a while with the door cracked.  I'm pretty sure I'm going to add another length of chimney.  I'm at the point now of already needing a roof guy kit which I was hesitant to add.  Not of big fan of putting more holes in my roof I guess.  I think I'll go ahead and get 3' more of pipe and install the braces.  One other question, and another reason besides the braces, that I was hesitant to go any higher is on the cold chimney issue.  I was concerned that adding more length outside the home would equal more length susceptible to cooling and therefore loss of draft.  Any merit to these fears?


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## Pagey (Oct 17, 2010)

The only thing you might notice is more soot in the last section of pipe.  I have around 5' of exposed Class A, and I have no problems with draft or creosote, but I am burning wood that's been cut/split/stacked for a minimum of one to two years.


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## skidud (Oct 17, 2010)

I have right about 3.5' exposed right now.  Guess it's time to add some more pipe.  I'll update this post when I get the pipe added on.  It might be a few weeks since I'm in the process of trying to finish our deck, cut firewood and finish the lawn before the rains come.  I've got about ten pokers in the fire right now.  If only my fire would burn right, I could take one of them out!  I'll defiantly post till I get it right though.  I hate reading a thread only to be left wondering how or if they ever got the problem fixed.


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## Pagey (Oct 17, 2010)

The wood you are burning now, when was it cut/split/stacked?  Sorry if you already said, but if you did I missed it.


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## skidud (Oct 17, 2010)

I never really did.  Not sure on any of those fronts.  The kindling is from a tree I took down about a month ago.  However, it's been dead for around three years now and the small limbs I put on cracked readily in your hands.  The actual wood I'm burning is from a buddy who left it behind after camping.  I know he cuts year round so it's hard to say for sure.  From what little I know, I'd say it's seasoned but I'm no expert.  I can definitely say it doesn't sizzle when I'm cooking it.  The wood seems to be burning alright but having said that I'm also not getting my flue collar temp up past 250 degrees and I'm still seeing the same issue with not being able to close the door without the fire dwindling and struggling to burn.  The instant I reopen the door though, the air rolls in and the fire dances likes it's just been given a new lease on life.  I think I'll get a small pile of wood from my dad who keeps a well seasoned stack ready at all times, just to eliminate any potential of the wood being the issue.  I could very well have a combination of problems causing this failure.


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## madrone (Oct 17, 2010)

Pagey said:
			
		

> The only downside I can see to it would be that perhaps over time, with the constant high temps needed for secondary combustion in the fire box, is that the damper plate or the yoke that attaches to it might warp.  I'm on my third season with the stove, and so far I can notice no difference in performance so it's clearly built well.



I'd be really surprised if it ever went bad. It's pretty beefy. I peek at mine every year when I clean, and no signs of warping yet.

As to the issue at hand, it does sound like a combination of things. I'm guessing that the OAK will make a huge difference, and a taller chimney might help, but really heating up that flue will help as well. Leaving the door open a crack during cold start up and using smaller pieces for that first fire gets the draft going. Try a small, hot fire using smaller splits of dry wood with lots of air to get the machine warmed up first. Then you should be able to reload with larger pieces and start shutting down the primary.


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## begreen (Oct 17, 2010)

skidud said:
			
		

> I never really did.  Not sure on any of those fronts.  The kindling is from a tree I took down about a month ago.  However, it's been dead for around three years now and the small limbs I put on cracked readily in your hands.  The actual wood I'm burning is from a buddy who left it behind after camping.  I know he cuts year round so it's hard to say for sure.  From what little I know, I'd say it's seasoned but I'm no expert.  I can definitely say it doesn't sizzle when I'm cooking it.  The wood seems to be burning alright but having said that I'm also not getting my flue collar temp up past 250 degrees and I'm still seeing the same issue with not being able to close the door without the fire dwindling and struggling to burn.  The instant I reopen the door though, the air rolls in and the fire dances likes it's just been given a new lease on life.  I think I'll get a small pile of wood from my dad who keeps a well seasoned stack ready at all times, just to eliminate any potential of the wood being the issue.  I could very well have a combination of problems causing this failure.



This sounds like a combo of so-so wood, combined with poor draft. If outside temps are also mild, the short stack probably can't draw well enough. The best way to figure this out is to eliminate unknown variables. Take a planned approach.
1) make sure the air control is open (all the way out)
2) start a fire with dry kindling. Get some carpentry or cabinetry scraps and use them to get the stove going well
3) open a nearby window about 1" and leave the stove door cracked open about 1/2"
4) once the kindling fire is burning well, put on a couple 2x4 scraps, let them get burning well
5) then put on the splits of dry wood, allowing an air gap between them 
6) once the fire is fully involved and burning strongly, close the door on the stove.

If this fails, the next thing is to make sure there are no obstructions in the flue and the cap screen is clean. If all the above fail, the stove has insufficient draft. It will need more pipe. To check this theory, get a *temporary* 3 or 4' length of inexpensive galvanized 6" heating vent pipe from the big box store. Pull the cap on the chimney, then cram the venting pipe, crimp down into the chimney. Leave the cap off and try lighting a fire with this temporary extension. If the stove lights up well, try closing the window, after the fire is fully engaged and the stovetop is over 300. If the flame dies back, it will also need an OAK.


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## Swedishchef (Oct 17, 2010)

Hrm. How did you make out Skidud? Did you try letting the fire roar a bit?

I agree with BeGreen, try some wood that is kiln dry. By a couple of 2X4s or something. Not pressure treated!

With my air tight basement, I always open a window in the nearby room for a few seconds before opening my damper and then cracking the door open for 5-10 seconds. THEN I reload. I keep my door open for 2 mins or so, close the door, bypass damper and then turn down the primary air intake (once my stack temps are nice and high and my secondaries are going nicely).

FYI for all the members here, the Osburn 2300 also has a bypass damper in the back. It's not just the Lopi.   Too bad the Endeavor is unavailable in Canada!!

ANdrew


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## Battenkiller (Oct 17, 2010)

skidud said:
			
		

> I know the inner liner wasn’t at 500 because I borrowed my brothers laser thermometer and shot a beam in through a vent slot in the outer wall.



You can't do that with a "laser" thermometer.  I know, I know... you can see the laser dot, but the actual area that the internal sensor covers is about 1" in diameter at the very closest you can get to the target.  The dot is only a pointing aid and has absolutely nothing to do with taking temps..  Most likely, you were reading only the outer surface.


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## North of 60 (Oct 17, 2010)

Is your upper baffle board or brick pushed all the way to the back so you have about a 2.5" opening up front on top?
That was an issue with my mine. Especially after moving the stove. It was the 1400 also.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 17, 2010)

The manual for that stove says to leave the door open about an inch until all of the kindling is burning well. And then to only load on a hot coal bed for a good fire. If you are not burning with the top down method then closing the door too soon is gonna croak a fire. I don't care what stove you have.


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## skidud (Oct 18, 2010)

Well I let it burn for probably an hour until I had a good hot fire.  I then went ahead and closed the doors but just like before, the flames stopped roaring and the fire looked like it was struggling for air.  Moving the damper in and out has no visible effect on how it burns, crack the door though and she instantly comes back to life.  I came home later that night to find that the log, which was probably about 4" square was now an ash pile.  I guess it did continue smolder down to nothing.  The first thing I smelt for was smoke when I went inside and you would never know I had the wood stove going.  Also, when I opened the door while it was choking, it never spewed any smoke into the room but had a fair amount of vacuum sucking the smoke out of the chamber.


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## skidud (Oct 18, 2010)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

> You can't do that with a "laser" thermometer.  I know, I know... you can see the laser dot, but the actual area that the internal sensor covers is about 1" in diameter at the very closest you can get to the target.  The dot is only a pointing aid and has absolutely nothing to do with taking temps..  Most likely, you were reading only the outer surface.



As far as the laser thermometer goes, I had no idea that's how it worked.  I'll definitely look at getting a probe thermometer.  I just borrowed the laser to check if I had any "hot spots" around the cathedral box.


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## oldspark (Oct 18, 2010)

I would try some different wood, my chimney does not spew any smoke into room ever and fire is kinda crazy with door open, with dry small splits of Green ash and elm I can close the door in 10 to 15 minutes and the fire is fine.


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## skidud (Oct 18, 2010)

north of 60 said:
			
		

> Is your upper baffle board or brick pushed all the way to the back so you have about a 2.5" opening up front on top?
> That was an issue with my mine. Especially after moving the stove. It was the 1400 also.



Those fiber baffles were another concern of mine and are really starting to make me wonder if that's not an issue.  I have 10 smaller ones as opposed to two big ones.   This was built in 1999 so I attributed the difference in baffles to it's age.  The stove can only handle 8 (another thing that concerns me) but even with 8, there would be no gap for air escape.  I wish I would have paid attention to how the bricks were installed when I pulled them prior to transport.  Anyways, according to the manual, I was supposed to have a minimum 1" gap at the front edge.  I cut about an inch and a half off a couple of baffles and put those at the front to give me a 1" clearance.  I started thinking after I found that problem, if perhaps the previous owner had only burned it once because it didn't have any place for the gasses to escape.  Perhaps he installed the baffling incorrectly.  Either way, I'm thinking I'm going to replace the cut baffles that I put at the front edge with the little pieces that I cut off of them.  It would increase my air gap to around 2.5".  I think I'll try that prior to adding anymore chimney length.


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## skidud (Oct 18, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> This sounds like a combo of so-so wood, combined with poor draft. If outside temps are also mild, the short stack probably can't draw well enough. The best way to figure this out is to eliminate unknown variables. Take a planned approach.
> 1) make sure the air control is open (all the way out)
> 2) start a fire with dry kindling. Get some carpentry or cabinetry scraps and use them to get the stove going well
> 3) open a nearby window about 1" and leave the stove door cracked open about 1/2"
> ...



Getting more stove length for trial won't be a big deal.  My brother is installing his Lopi in the next few weeks and he'd buy any length of pipe that I don't need.  I will plan to use some 2x4 scraps for my next fire though to eliminate the wood being the issue.


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## northernontario (Oct 18, 2010)

Ya... normal steps in this situation seem to be:
-open a door/window to reduce negative pressure in house (you've done this)
-warm up the chimney (you've done this)
-ensure adequate draft (sounds like a decent draft to me... trying another 3' of chimney might help).  

But the fact that you need to open a door/window to improve the draft tells me you've got enough suction coming from the chimney.  I'm leaning more towards some sort of defect related to the air control.  The fact that there is no perceivable difference between open and closed seems to indicate a problem with the stove.

It also looks like once you get the air control issue resolved, you might need an OAK for the stove.  But I would be tearing that stove apart to figure out why the air isn't getting in there, before I tried adding any more air (OAK).


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## branchburner (Oct 18, 2010)

I think Pagey is on the right track with flue height being your draft issue. It's hard to put all the math together without a good picture of your setup. You said you had 11' of pipe, so what is the total stack height from ground level? And it goes 2' above the peak of the roof. How high is that roof peak from the ground, and is it the highest part of your full structure or is there a higher roof peak nearby (if so, how high and how far away)?


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## skidud (Oct 18, 2010)

branchburner said:
			
		

> I think Pagey is on the right track with flue height being your draft issue. It's hard to put all the math together without a good picture of your setup. You said you had 11' of pipe, so what is the total stack height from ground level? And it goes 2' above the peak of the roof. How high is that roof peak from the ground, and is it the highest part of your full structure or is there a higher roof peak nearby (if so, how high and how far away)?



My home is a cape cod style (or a 1 1/2 story as some call it) but with a full two story on the backside making it a 1 3/4 story.  Picture a 12/12 pitch on the front going up to the center peak and then sloping down the back side at a 4/12 pitch.  The dining room is an extension in the middle of the home with a cathedral ceiling and a 6/12 pitch roof.  The stove is in the back corner of the room.  The chimney is approximately 15' from the backside of the house and it's second story which is just shy of 10' taller.  I understood when I put the chimney in that there would be a risk of low draft but from all the reading I did and talking to others, I felt it would still function as intended and took the risk.  I am still wondering if I even have a draft issue but am still planning to at least try a second length of chimney.  I'm confused on why my fire sucks in air so hard when I open the door if I didn't have draft.  I have ABSOLUTELY no smoke spillage into the room when I open the door like I'd think I would if I had a back draft going.  Not sure but either way I plan to try another length of chimney.  Like I said, if it doesn't help, I'm not out anything because my brother will buy it.  Don't see it hurting anything to try at least.


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## oldspark (Oct 18, 2010)

You seem to have a better draft than some that complain of smoke spillage, your chimney draws like mine it sounds like, the dry wood is easier to try or have you ruled that out already?


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## skidud (Oct 18, 2010)

No, I left my pile of wood to try over to my parents but. . . . a little update from a previous post.  I'm currently burning the stove (same wood as before) but went ahead and switched out the top baffles for the shorter pieces.  It seems to have helped significantly.  Not sure if it's a cure all but I've got the door locked shut, the damper set about 2/3 open and a fire that's burning like I had envisioned.  It's certainly not a roaring fire, like it is when I crack the door, but a nice hot fire just the same.  I am seeing a little difference when adjusting the damper but not much.  It basically goes from decent fire to dwindling but not quite dieing.  I guess I figured with the damper open, that the fire would be just as hot as if I had the door cracked, or at least get so hot that I would have it over firing, I don't see that happening with what I've got now.  Maybe the better seasoned wood would help.  I plan to still add the extra chimney length but still not sure if it's my problem.  I wish I knew how this stove should act in ideal conditions.  Never dealt with a stove that has a damper control so I don't know what kind of difference I should see between full closed and full open.


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## PunKid8888 (Oct 18, 2010)

I think you have a couple issues that combined are giving you a hard time.

The reason why your getting good flame when you crack the door is its unrestricted airflow from around the door.  The air coming from you primary air control is much smaller and zig zages in the stove.  it does sound like you could use some more chimney but since you don't have any smoke back this is my suggestion.

get a hardwood pallet that has been indoors for a while and cut that thing up.  (i usually use the sticks and small splinters from splitting to start a fire but using a pallet is much better for starting)

start the fire like you have, and after the fire is roaring with the door open, close it but just leave it cracked and study the fire.  at this point the fire shrinks a little but intensifies because of the velocity of the intake air.  let the fire come to an equilibrium (not getting larger or dieing out) and close the door completely (air control should be wide open). Now let the fire burn for a few mins and dont panic when it slows down and looks like it dying out.  what its doing is now trying to draw the air through the primary inlet, and it changes the burn behavior. Usually after 5 mins or so it will start coming back to life.  If it does not I would repeat the process again and try to let the stove get some more heat in it.

What your really trying to do here is learn the stoves starting habits.  

over the last winter i have learned how to start my stuff and read the trouble signs and adjust my habits.

when lighting the initial pipe warming I feel as if the paper is not burning well I open a window, but only on the northeast side of the house (pressure side of the wind)

if the fire dies out after shutting the door I will open it back up and throw some more kindling on and let it get a little hotter before trying again. 

Also before my first reload I like to crack the door first for about 30sec.  If I don't do this I sometimes get a little smoke back into the room.

Again every stove/house combination is different and Its going to take some time to get the best technique for your situation.

Also Fire requires 4 things
Air, Fuel, Ignition, and HEAT.  yes it needs heat. So the hotter that stove gets the better the fire will be.


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## North of 60 (Oct 18, 2010)

skidud said:
			
		

> No, I left my pile of wood to try over to my parents but. . . . a little update from a previous post. I'm currently burning the stove (same wood as before) but went ahead and switched out the top baffles for the shorter pieces. It seems to have helped significantly. Not sure if it's a cure all but I've got the door locked shut, the damper set about 2/3 open and a fire that's burning like I had envisioned. It's certainly not a roaring fire, like it is when I crack the door, but a nice hot fire just the same. I am seeing a little difference when adjusting the damper but not much. It basically goes from decent fire to dwindling but not quite dieing. I guess I figured with the damper open, that the fire would be just as hot as if I had the door cracked, or at least get so hot that I would have it over firing, I don't see that happening with what I've got now. Maybe the better seasoned wood would help. I plan to still add the extra chimney length but still not sure if it's my problem. I wish I knew how this stove should act in ideal conditions. Never dealt with a stove that has a damper control so I don't know what kind of difference I should see between full closed and full open.



I am glad it helped you with a positive difference.


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## begreen (Oct 18, 2010)

What is meant by switching out the baffle for the shorter pieces?


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## skidud (Oct 18, 2010)

It has 8 roughly 4"x8" fiber baffles on the top of the fire chamber.  I had to cut about an inch and a half off of two of them to allow the gas to escape up to the flue.  The manual says to have a minimum of 1" gap there.  I took the 1.5" piece (that I cut off) and put that in place of the 2.5" pieces (from which they came).  It seems to have helped but it's definitely not right yet.  My fire is not burning as hot as it should be.  I'm gonna try some different wood and then add the second length of chimney pipe.  I'm thinking this is definitely a matter of multiple problems for which I hope to eliminate one by one until I get it.  It works now, but not like it should, or at least how I think it should.


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## begreen (Oct 18, 2010)

With good dry wood and proper draft that stove should take off like a rocket. This is the first time I've heard of modifying the baffle. Are the baffle board firmly all the way back in the stove?


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## Ivy Frank (Oct 18, 2010)

precaud said:
			
		

> Welcome to hearth.com. My suggestion is: I think you'll find that more people will read your posts if you organize your thoughts into paragraphs.



This is unnecessarily snarky.  Newb comes to the forum looking for help and you hit him with prose critique?


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## oldspark (Oct 18, 2010)

Hell I do not have enough thoughts to put into paragraphs, I missed that post.


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## Ivy Frank (Oct 18, 2010)

oldspark said:
			
		

> To add to that I DO NOT have a problem with my draft but I still have to have the door open when I start a new fire.



"Problem with my draft" is a relative term.

I'd say that, for a PE stove, if you can't get a fire w/o the door open, then you have a problem with your draft.  Just my opinion of what a problem is.

I say that because starting a fire with the door open presents an opportunity for bad things to happen.

In any event, I use top down method.  Few logs on bottom, some 1" kindling, then a handful of 1/8" stuff.  

Put the draft on high, hit the 1/8" stuff with a propane torch for a minute of less, blow a few times to get it hot and bothered, and close the door.

Success rate is about 99% with that method, if the wood is dry.  100% if I don't get lazy with the setup.

My stack is about 28 feet tall, triple wall.


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## North of 60 (Oct 18, 2010)

Ivy said:
			
		

> precaud said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Precaud made perfect helpful sense which tho OP has used which got him helpful answer's, and talk about Cat snarky. Time to use the ignore button once again.


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## oldspark (Oct 18, 2010)

Ivy said:
			
		

> oldspark said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Some stove have that in the owners manual and it is still fairly warm, have you seen all the posts from the people who start fires with the door open?


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## vvvv (Oct 18, 2010)

whats the color of the flame?


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## oldspark (Oct 18, 2010)

~*~vvv~*~ said:
			
		

> whats the color of the flame?


Huh, who you talking to?


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## Ivy Frank (Oct 18, 2010)

oldspark said:
			
		

> Some stove have that in the owners manual and it is still fairly warm, have you seen all the posts from the people who start fires with the door open?



Sure.  Lots of people start fires with the door open.  Lots of people drive without wearing seatbelts too.

Point is this - you'll never have a fire caused by a door left open at the start of a burn if you don't leave the door open at the start of a burn.

This reminds me of a guy who was having an intractable issue with his car.  Couldn't diagnose it for the life of him.  I walked up to the car, after listening to the symptoms, and said, "aha, I know what your problem is."   Guy says, excitedly, "oh what's that?"  I say, "it's a Ford.  Get yourself a Honda and this ----- won't happen anymore."

Point is this - a stove should not need to be jury rigged to get it to start burning, as it presents a fire risk.  Stoves and ventilation systems should be designed and built with that at the forefront.  Any manufacturer that instructed the use of the "cracked door" technique would, to me, warrant avoidance.

If you have to start every fire with the door open, then I'd suggest a different stack, a different stove, or both.

Regarding the OP's issue, holy canolee - scattershot approach works great on the 79 dodge with the tricky high tension problem, not so much on stoves.

You say that you bought the stove used?
It's been modified?
You're not sure of the mods?
4x8 whatsee-hoo-zee baffle HUH?

My advice is this - sell the stove to your brother with the advice that Frank Ivy wouldn't use it as an outdoor Maple Syrup boiler.

Go buy yourself a PE or other top-brand stove that doesn't say to jury rig the door to get it started.

Improve your vent pipe to triple wall (best way to go), and make sure that you have a tall enough stack.

Regarding your house, it sounds unhealthy.  If it's that tight, you ought to leave a window open through the window, minimum.  Better yet, put in an air exchange system.

Houses should have 4 or 5 complete air volume exchanges everyday.

Good luck.


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## begreen (Oct 18, 2010)

Ivy said:
			
		

> oldspark said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



On that same path, anytime you start a fire there is an opportunity for bad things to happen. What's the actual concern? 

What if it is impossible for the stove to have a 2 story flue? 28ft is a tall stack. Our PE has about 8ft less and starts better in milder weather with the door ajar. But I usually don't do top down starts, prolly should get into the habit. Once it gets cold outside, the stove starts faster and with the door closed. Add a chunk of SuperCedar, it is childs play.

There are a variety of stove fire box shapes and baffle arrangements too. Some stove designs start much better with the door ajar. This is what we found burning in shallower firebox stoves like the F3CB and F400.


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## Ivy Frank (Oct 18, 2010)

north of 60 said:
			
		

> Ivy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Criticizing the formation of paragraphs in a post seeking wood stove help is "helpful?"

Ok.  Here's some help for you.

When you modify a noun with multiple adjectives, a comma is required between the adjectives.  Thus - "perfect, helpful sense."
If you are going to use "which" to add a subordinate clause to modify a noun, precede it with a comma.  Thus - ". . . helpful sense, which the OP . . . ."
Two spaces after a period, not one.
The use of an apostrophe before an "s" at the end of a noun implies possession, but your "answer" doesn't possess anything.  Instead, you intended a pluralization of "answer," and, accordingly, no apostrophe was required.

So, am I making "perfect helpful sense," or am I being snarky?

Seriously though, folks, Hearth.com was never about being uppity with newbs.  Greetings should be warm and gentle, like those for which BeGreen and Craig himself are known.


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## Ivy Frank (Oct 18, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> On that same path, anytime you start a fire there is an opportunity for bad things to happen. What's the actual concern?


Come on, that makes no sense.

What you're saying is, "well, there's a risk of explosion every time you fill your gasoline tank, so what's the problem with smoking?"

Door open = Greater risk.  

Show me anybody who is in the habit of starting a fire with the door open until "the kindling is going" and I'll show you somebody who has forgotten about a fire with the door open at some point. 

OK - it usually works out without a house fire.  

But not every time.



			
				BeGreen said:
			
		

> On that same path, anytime you start a fire there is an opportunity for bad things to happen. What's the actual concern?
> 
> What if it is impossible for the stove to have a 2 story flue? 28ft is a tall stack.



My stack is too tall - 28 is not ideal, but it's what I had to do for my design.

But there are minimums.  I hear "11 foot" and I think, "burn problems." 

Even in a one story house with a standard roof you've got 5 feet to the ceiling, 5 feet of attic or so - if you need to have 8' above roof then that's what you need - or locate the stove in a different place and run it up an outside wall.

Point is, there are minimums that should be attained - if you can't obtain the minimum, keeping the fire open to the room "until it gets going" is a poor substitute.


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## oldspark (Oct 18, 2010)

Starting a fire with a propane torch does not sound like the safest thing to do either!


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## begreen (Oct 18, 2010)

We've never forgotten so far. However, I can definitely say that there are a lot of people that have forgotten to close the bypass on their stoves and perhaps taken the flue over its rating. Do you have stats on house fires caused by spacing out the door being open starting a fire or just conjecture? This is not a door wide open, but just ajar. I firmly doubt this would be in print in stove manuals if it was high risk, but you know liability law better.

FWIW, aren't many fireplaces open to the room?


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## BrotherBart (Oct 18, 2010)

From EPA Method 28, the testing standard for wood stoves:

"8.12.1.4 The wood heater door may remain open and the
air supply controls adjusted up to five minutes after the
start of the test run in order to make adjustments to the
test fuel charge and to ensure ignition of the test fuel
charge has occurred."


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## freeburn (Oct 18, 2010)

Skidud- what's your temp outside the house when starting this fire? If it's too warm you aren't going to get any draft unless the door is open.


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## tutu_sue (Oct 18, 2010)

You mentioned that you have double wall pipe with a vent hole in it where you aimed the laser thermometer.  What kind of pipe do you have? Are your venting connections - flue collar to stove pipe, stove pipe to chimney, chimney to chimney very air tight?  Air getting into a leaky venting system can compete with the stove and affect operation.  If you really want us to help you nail down the problem, pics of everything inside and out will go a long way and help hold our attention.

I think I've seen leave the door open in one of the Hearthstone manuals, too.


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## madrone (Oct 18, 2010)

~*~vvv~*~ said:
			
		

> whats the color of the flame?



It's probably green, indicating large amounts of copper in the soil where the tree grew.


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## madrone (Oct 18, 2010)

I believe there's even a video on the Lopi site on operating your stove that tells you to leave the door open at start up. I'll have to find it. The stove shouldn't be left alone at start up anyway.

And Precaud's advice was good. I didn't sense any trace of snark. It's something I myself took a while to learn about posting, and I wish someone had said something sooner.


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## begreen (Oct 19, 2010)

Let's try to focus on the OP and find out why this 1400 is balking. I am concerned about having modified the config on a new stove. That appears to be treating the symptoms and not the problem, but may have repercussions once the actual problem is remedied.

Primary suspects are a combo of so-so wood, short flue and warm outside temps. Need to confirm that the baffle was seated all the way to the rear of the stove.


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## Ivy Frank (Oct 19, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Let's try to focus on the OP and find out why this 1400 is balking. I am concerned about having modified the config on a new stove. That appears to be treating the symptoms and not the problem, but may have repercussions once the actual problem is remedied.
> 
> Primary suspects are a combo of so-so wood, short flue and warm outside temps. Need to confirm that the baffle was seated all the way to the rear of the stove.



4 bucks worth of kiln dried 2x4 from Home Cheapo will eliminate the first.
First cold night eliminates the 2nd.

Short, cold flue or rigged stove is where I'd look 1st.


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## skidud (Oct 19, 2010)

Well, I'm back and it looks like I missed a lot.  I won't attempt to hit all the points but I'll knock off some.  

My first post was rambling but like I said, it was late and I was a little frustrated.  I didn't take any offense to the poor paragraph comment but could see how some might.  I'm on quite a few forums and it'll take a lot more than that to get my feathers ruffled.

See, I do know how to make paragraphs!

Next thing is, when the devil offers to buy my stove cause hell's getting chilly, I'll sell it.  Until then, I'm keeping it.  

The baffling in the top has not been modified by anyone other than me.  I don't know the exact history of the stove, but what I do know is too long to post.  The short of it is, I bought it from a guy (who never used it) who got it from another guy.  It showed no signs of being burned more than one time.  Perhaps this is because the original owner put new firebrick in it, hence the screwed up baffles.

FYI, when I speak of draft, I'm referring to the amount draw or vacuum the chimney is producing.  I would consider back draft (or negative draft) to be air current going down the chimney and into the chamber/room.  Having strong draft and no supply of oxygen to match that draft is going to result in no fire.  Whether I have a draft problem or not remains to be seen.  I definitely have an oxygen problem.  Seeing the choked out fire smoke get sucked up through the flue when I crack the door would show that I have some draft.  Leaving the door cracked until a fire is going is recommended in different literature including my owner's manual.  I'd question if stoves that don't require this are stoves that have bypass controls or a lot bigger control range on the damper controls.  I'm fine with leaving the door open to start a fire (see the part about hell freezing over).

The outside temp was around 60-65 on my latest attempts, the first attempt it was probably a little over 40, my inside temp would be 68.  

The baffles are all the way to the back, the stove is not "new" but built in 1999.  I agree with not treating the symptoms but the supplied baffling was not correct per the owners manual.  It is now, per the owner manual, and that did seem to help.  I would never, nor would my wife ever allow me to, try and jury rig a stove to make it work.  I have a family that sleeps in this home and they're safety is my number one concern.

I am going to let it cool overnight, pull all the firebrick/baffles back out and figure out why my damper control is not letting in oxygen.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm still not convinced that this isn't an issue of something being goofed up with an air passage somewhere.  I've seen homes with some REALLY REALLY poor chimneys layouts and they're getting burned all winter long.  You won't convince me that my draft is worse than theirs (unless the inside/outside temp is in play) or that any of them is having to leave their stove door open the entire time to keep a roaring fire going.  I will continue to believe that I've got an airflow problem until I have, one way or another, checked that every passage is clear and proven otherwise.

Lastly, if anyone is still reading, I really do appreciate what everyone is doing to try and help.  You guys are all great and my wife just laughs when I tell her that so many people are helping me get to the bottom of this.  She thinks you guys are nuts for getting on here to help someone out, whom you don't even know.  I think your all nuts too but I'm very grateful just the same.  I'm going to bed now, my daughter has been up with a cold and I've been juggling her, the stove and this forum all day.  Have a good night everyone.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 19, 2010)

Just crack the door an inch until the kindling is all burning and the stove will do just fine. Air restricted stoves just will not take off and run with the door closed. Period. Paragraph. 

When you reload, leave it cracked open until the splits have started burning. Five minutes usually max. Stuff needs air to burn and the flue needs to be sucking it through the stove.

Edit: And tell your wife she is right. We are all nuts. Wood burning nuts. We like burning very large weeds to heat our houses.


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## begreen (Oct 19, 2010)

EPA stoves need more draft than stoves of yore. If that is what you are comparing chimney layouts to, be sure you are also comparing like stoves... and like houses. A leaky shack with a rusty 4ft pipe on an old Ashley tin can stove is not on the same planet as your air tight house and a modern stove. Cram a cheap piece of pipe in the top of the flue, try dry wood, and do this when the temps are at least below 50. The stove should respond briskly. If not, then go searching for the mouse nest in the air passages. 

And give your wife a hug. She is correct, we are nuts. Helping people can be an addiction, but there are worse things in life.


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## oldspark (Oct 19, 2010)

Any body else besides ivy start their fire with a propane torch?


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## BrotherBart (Oct 19, 2010)

oldspark said:
			
		

> Any body else besides ivy start their fire with a propane torch?



Ivy, or the pretend Ivy, probably heats his house with gas and shows up every once in a while to either get banned or show his posterior. One of only three assholes on this site in the five years I have been here.

And I will pull the trigger on him again in a heartbeat. The lack of condescending assholes are what make this site as great as it is.


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## oldspark (Oct 19, 2010)

Thanks for clearing that up for me. :lol:


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## Wooddust (Oct 19, 2010)

Great thread.

I'd bet the stove works great with right wood and some practice.  I have to retrain myself every year on one stove or the other, i put to much wood in to start, some wet wood no doubt, and get frustrated.

Usually two fingers of wild Turkey on ice helps. Never have used a propane torch inside to light the stove. I did use one once to light my pipe and it is fast.

I have a Hampton 300 stove for the big room and I have never yet figured out where the air gets in or where it comes out in the fire box.


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## daleeper (Oct 19, 2010)

skidud said:
			
		

> When the devil offers to buy my stove cause hell's getting chilly, I'll sell it.  Until then, I'm keeping it.
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm still not convinced that this isn't an issue of something being goofed up with an air passage somewhere.  I've seen homes with some REALLY REALLY poor chimneys layouts and they're getting burned all winter long.  You won't convince me that my draft is worse than theirs (unless the inside/outside temp is in play) or that any of them is having to leave their stove door open the entire time to keep a roaring fire going.  I will continue to believe that I've got an airflow problem until I have, one way or another, checked that every passage is clear and proven otherwise.
> 
> Lastly, if anyone is still reading, I really do appreciate what everyone is doing to try and help.  You guys are all great and my wife just laughs when I tell her that so many people are helping me get to the bottom of this.  She thinks you guys are nuts for getting on here to help someone out, whom you don't even know.  I think your all nuts too but I'm very grateful just the same.  I'm going to bed now, my daughter has been up with a cold and I've been juggling her, the stove and this forum all day.  Have a good night everyone.



That line about the devil buying your stove is the best I've read in awhile.  Thanks for the laugh.

I agree with the potential of something in the air passage somewhere after reading your newspaper burn test.  You mentioned storage in the garage, there could be any number of things plugging up the system including mud dauber or wasp nests.  I'm not familiar with that stove, but do your best to check out the air passages.  It is most likely though a combination of things that is why it is so difficult to pin it on one item.  Less than ideal draft, wood, and a partial block of the air passage can all add up to what you are experiencing.

Your wife has us pegged by the way, we are nuts.  Welcome to Hearth.com


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## tutu_sue (Oct 19, 2010)

I found a diagram of the air passages in the manual.


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## Battenkiller (Oct 19, 2010)

tutu_sue said:
			
		

> I found a diagram of the air passages in the manual.



Yeah, lots of luck pulling air through _that_ maze with a small fire and a marginal flue. 

Get a big fire going with lots of coals, add three fair size splits, leave the door cracked until the new wood is fully involved, then slowly close it.  If it don't take off within five minutes with a with a big fire going, there is something wrong with that stove somewhere.

FWIW, I always leave the door cracked when starting a fire in a cold stove.  My old stove has nothing like the sort of restricted airflow as is found in an EPA stove, but it takes off like a rocket when I crack the door in the beginning.  Why wait longer to get warm just so I can close the door?  I have never once left the door open and forgot about it, but I've closed the door and forgot to shut the air down or close the bypass more times than I care to admit.  I also have left the room with our open fireplace going on numerous occasions.  Been here 20 years and the place is still standing.


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## skidud (Oct 24, 2010)

Well, I blew air through all the passages and really didn't get much other than some cob webs and dead beetles out of them.  Nothing major enough to cause the starvation like I was seeing.  I went up this morning, pulled off the rain cap and put a 2' length of vent pipe on top of my chimney.  I started a rip roaring fire like normal and after about 20 minutes, I locked the door shut.  It dwindled a little but stayed burning.  I left the damper on full open and started to get around for church.  

About a half hour later I come back and the fire is still burning and burning really really hot.  Problem solved!  I was so excited and relieved that I got it working.  I still don't understand how on earth more chimney length helped my issue but it surely did.  I didn't change the wood or anything, it has to be the added chimney.  Like I've said multiple times, I had good draft.  So much draft that about three days ago I opened the door and blew the ashes when it was dead cold.  The ashes swirled around and then sucked right up the flue.  The other thing I can't figure is why a stove that has insufficient draft would suck air in so hard when you crack the door.  I always thought they were the opposite and tried to push the air back into the room.  In the end, I guess I was just wrong.  I thought my draft was strong enough but apparently you need a really really strong draft for this thing.

Thanks for all your help guys, you certainly nailed my issue.  I was so certain draft wasn't my issue but it was.  If I would have just put on the added length of chimney from the get go, I would have never had this issue.  Then again, I probably would have never gotten to know you guys on this fine site.

I got to leave for church now and probably won't be around the computer until tomorrow so don't expect any quick responses from me.  Thanks again.


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## Battenkiller (Oct 24, 2010)

skidud said:
			
		

> I still don't understand how on earth more chimney length helped my issue but it surely did.  I didn't change the wood or anything, it has to be the added chimney.  Like I've said multiple times, I had good draft.  So much draft that about three days ago I opened the door and blew the ashes when it was dead cold.  The ashes swirled around and then sucked right up the flue.  The other thing I can't figure is why a stove that has insufficient draft would suck air in so hard when you crack the door.  I always thought they were the opposite and tried to push the air back into the room.  In the end, I guess I was just wrong.  I thought my draft was strong enough but apparently you need a really really strong draft for this thing.



Yeah, your draft was sufficient to pass unrestricted through the open door but not strong enough to pull air through the labyrinth of passages inside your stove.  Surprised only 2' did the trick, sounds like your chimney was just below the threshold of working within the normal flue temp range, so a bit more height was what was needed.   Anyway, glad you solved your problem. ;-)


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## begreen (Oct 24, 2010)

Experience has taught us that many modern EPA stoves need better draft to pull air through the secondaries and for the air wash system. Your draft is weak due to mild outdoor temps.  When it gets cold, draft will improve. By adding the extra pipe now, you will extend the stove's burning season so that it works well in mild weather and great in cold weather.


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