# Still 660 Clone $270.00



## Jazzberry (Jul 10, 2017)

Granddaughters boyfriend showed me his new clone 660. Bought all parts off the net and put it together for less than $270. Couldn't tell the difference except for the stickers were different. Started first pull and idled perfect. Didn't cut anything but it felt powerful and grabbed revs just like the Stihl 660. Gonna screw up the used saw market I bet.


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## TreePointer (Jul 10, 2017)

Farmertech?


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## GadDummit (Jul 10, 2017)

Pics?


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## Jazzberry (Jul 10, 2017)

I didn't ask him the brand of it and never took a pic. Looks exactly like a new stihl 660 except the sticker was different. I will ask him when I see him again. He told me it all came from the same seller as a package. He is a tree cutter/climber so I assume he's gonna use it and I will get to see how it works and holds up. He has an 066 to compare it to. It was just put together and never cut any wood yet when he showed it to me. Should have a better report in a few days


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## dougand3 (Jul 10, 2017)

Sounds like Huztl.net. They sell FarmerTec. Have many "saws in a box".


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## salecker (Jul 10, 2017)

It will only screw up the used saw market if you don't know what to look for.Byer beware is the best advice.
I know i would be pissed if i bought a chink 660 and it was passed of as the real macoy.
Of course there are those that will be peddling these saws as the real thing and be pocketing $$$$.
I doubt that there will be anything left of these after 20 yrs of hard use,but a Stihl will be still working.


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## Jazzberry (Jul 10, 2017)

I bought a FarmerTec piston & nikasil cylinder kit off ebay for an 026. 31.00 with free shipping lol. Works great. Put Caber rings in it.


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## Jazzberry (Jul 10, 2017)

Just looked at the site. Wow. Complete 660 for 186.00 and 360 for 136.00. If they come up with an 880 or 090 Im in.


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## Ashful (Jul 10, 2017)

salecker said:


> I doubt that there will be anything left of these after 20 yrs of hard use,but a Stihl will be still working.


Despite what some may think about themselves, there aren't many firewood cutters who use a saw all that hard.  I'll gladly pay the money for Stihl, since my time and frustration is worth more money than the amount saved on a clone saw, but it may hit the sweet spot for many firewood cutters only occasionally needing a saw this big.


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## Jazzberry (Jul 10, 2017)

Agreed Ash. I need a big cheap saw for my mill. I currently have a 42" bar on my 064 and its working way too hard. If the clones hold up for a year  it would be worth it to save a good saw.


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## WoodyIsGoody (Jul 10, 2017)

I have some beautiful parcels of land in Florida to sell to anyone who thinks the crank forging, cylinder casting and plating, main bearings, etc. of a clone are up to the same high quality as the original. 

The whole reason I love my Stihls are because of their superior engineering, design and manufacture. I have the utmost respect for the people who created such durable, trouble-free tools and could never send my money to those who copy it (and not very well at that). It's theft of others intellectual property, testing and design. I'm an honest person who doesn't support scams, bootlegging and theft and who wants his money to flow to people who are deserving of it.

Have you ever had something stolen from you? How did it make you feel about the people who stole it?


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## Jazzberry (Jul 10, 2017)

I used to be able to afford an opinion such as yours but retirement changes the financial attitude somewhat. I really hate thieves. On the other hand the ones that sell you 20 year old technology for ten times the price don't set right either.


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## bholler (Jul 10, 2017)

Jazzberry said:


> I used to be able to afford an opinion such as yours but retirement changes the financial attitude somewhat. I really hate thieves. On the other hand the ones that sell you 20 year old technology for ten times the price don't set right either.


But if they developed designed and tested the tech it is theirs to sell for what the market can handle.  That does not make it ok for someone to steal their stuff.


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## Jazzberry (Jul 10, 2017)

Who invented the car, stove,carpet,computer,doorknob,etc


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## bholler (Jul 10, 2017)

Jazzberry said:


> Who invented the car, stove,carpet,computer,doorknob,etc


No one is saying they cant sell a chainsaw of their own.   The problem comes when they make cheap knock off copies of someone elses saw.


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## Jazzberry (Jul 10, 2017)

Would that include car parts, computer parts, eyeglasses, chainsaw parts, coffee cups or is just Stihl parts bugging you? Nobody would be thinking they would be getting a Stihl quality saw. Its a cheap china version no where near a real Stihl.


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## bholler (Jul 10, 2017)

Jazzberry said:


> Would that include car parts, computer parts, eyeglasses, chainsaw parts, coffee cups or is just Stihl parts bugging you? Nobody would be thinking they would be getting a Stihl quality saw. Its a cheap china version no where near a real Stihl.


Parts are one thing but when they sell a complete saw that is a copy of someone elses product i have a problem with that.  Now because they sell it as parts it is legal but that doesnt make it ok in my eyes. 

And no i dont care if it is a stihl saw or a knock off purse it is wrong.  I have a design degree and worked as an industrial designer for a few years.  I hold 2 patents and have intelectual property over several products all of which i collect on.  And i would be pretty pissed if someone stole that money from me.


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## Jazzberry (Jul 10, 2017)

Ok I get it. Its ok to steal a few but not all. lol


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## bholler (Jul 10, 2017)

Jazzberry said:


> Ok I get it. Its ok to steal a few but not all. lol


Where did i say that?

Individual components are very different from a complete product from a legal standpoint.  That is why they only sell it as parts.


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## bholler (Jul 10, 2017)

Jazzberry said:


> Ok I get it. Its ok to steal a few but not all. lol


How would you feel if you spent all of the time and money to bring a product to market only to have someone copy it and sell a cheap copy?


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## Jazzberry (Jul 10, 2017)

You said 
"Parts are one thing but when they sell a complete saw that is a copy of someone elses product i have a problem with that."
Like I said before nobody thinks they are selling a Stihl quality saw. It is what it is a cheap copy.


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## brenndatomu (Jul 10, 2017)

These kits will affect Stihl very little IMO. Heck, their parts sales for the 066/660 series saws probably has gone _up_ due to guys buying a few select OEM parts to replace the known weak links in these kits.
As far as new saw sales go, the guy that will drop $1200 on a new saw, will continue to do so.
The guys buying these AM saws aren't that guy.
Chinees AM parts have saved many Stihls from hitting the scrap pile.
Shame on anyone that sells one of these AM saws as the genuine article!


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## bholler (Jul 10, 2017)

Jazzberry said:


> You said
> "Parts are one thing but when they sell a complete saw that is a copy of someone elses product i have a problem with that."
> Like I said before nobody thinks they are selling a Stihl quality saw. It is what it is a cheap copy.


Yes but it is clearly a copy of a stihl saw.  You said yourself you couldt tell the difference other that the stickers.  And to be clear selling cheap copies is illegal.  The only reason it is legal at all is that it is a kit of parts not a saw.


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## WoodyIsGoody (Jul 11, 2017)

Jazzberry said:


> I used to be able to afford an opinion such as yours but retirement changes the financial attitude somewhat.



I knew a guy who never tipped after being served a restaurant meal. I explained to him that the waitresses rely on tips to pay rent, buy food, feed their child, etc. He said he couldn't afford to tip. I told him if I couldn't afford to tip, I couldn't afford to eat out and be served by a waiter/waitress.

I would come out of retirement or do without another saw before I would send my money to thieves. I want to support the people who actually created these fine machines, not the leeches trying to profit off other's hard work.



> On the other hand the ones that sell you 20 year old technology for ten times the price don't set right either.



20 year old technology? I just bought a new saw to supplement my 20 year old Stihl 026 (which still starts/runs perfectly). I didn't think it would be possible for the new saw to be any better but it is! And the price is a bargain compared to cheap throw away saws. Every time I buy a Stihl part (which is almost never) I feel like I'm getting a good value.


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## Jazzberry (Jul 11, 2017)

Woody you are awesome.


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## salecker (Jul 11, 2017)

Jazzberry said:


> Just looked at the site. Wow. Complete 660 for 186.00 and 360 for 136.00. If they come up with an 880 or 090 Im in.


There are 090 chink kits as well


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## salecker (Jul 11, 2017)

bholler said:


> Where did i say that?
> 
> Individual components are very different from a complete product from a legal standpoint.  That is why they only sell it as parts.


Except you can buy complete copies ready to run as well


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## WoodyIsGoody (Jul 11, 2017)

salecker said:


> Except you can buy complete copies ready to run as well



It depends on what the term "ready to run as well" means to you!

Check out this video of quality testing of a Chinese clone:





You have to wonder how they can perform so differently while looking so similar!


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## Jazzberry (Jul 11, 2017)

salecker said:


> There are 090 chink kits as well



I see a 070 complete saw that looks like a 090 but I don't see anything on a 090


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## brenndatomu (Jul 11, 2017)

WoodyIsGoody said:


> It depends on what the term "ready to run as well" means to you!
> 
> Check out this video of quality testing of a Chinese clone:
> 
> ...



Interesting. Too bad they didn't compare a clone. Looks like a totally different model to me...


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## WoodyIsGoody (Jul 11, 2017)

brenndatomu said:


> Interesting. Too bad they didn't compare a clone. Looks like a totally different model to me...



It is a Chinese clone - just not of a Stihl. It's a clone of a Redmax G5000 of Zenoah which is a division of Husqvarna.


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## Jazzberry (Jul 11, 2017)

Much smaller model also. Dont make any sense at all to compare something not apples to apples. Waste of time. Although nobody in their right mind would try to compare a saw costing 186.00 to a 1200.00 saw.


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## WoodyIsGoody (Jul 11, 2017)

Jazzberry said:


> Much smaller model also. Dont make any sense at all to compare something not apples to apples. Waste of time. Although nobody in their right mind would try to compare a saw costing 186.00 to a 1200.00 saw.



Except the MS 440 was never anywhere near $1200.

But anything can be compared, particularly if you're dense enough to be considering spending good money on complete junk. Even if it was $1000 (the MS 440  went for less than that), what kind of idiot is going to fret over $800, considering a good saw will easily last 20 years with minimal maintenance and the junk saw is going to be a ton of headache over the same period. Heck, four stitches in the Emergency Room is gonna cost you a lot more than 800 bucks!

Would you rather have a nice big screen tv and a junk clone saw or a durable and reliable pro quality saw while you saved your pennies for that big screen tv? I guess it's a matter of priorities but I don't understand people who try to save money by buying cheap tools. I guess some people get a shot of endorphins with every new purchase. I guess if you buy cheap tools, you get that shot of endorphins on a much more regular basis!


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## Jazzberry (Jul 11, 2017)

oops thought it was a 660. We started out comparing a 186.00 660 clone to a new Stihl.
You seem to be an authority on clones. Do you know for sure its junk or are you just flapping your gums? Dense people seem to do that a lot too.


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## WoodyIsGoody (Jul 11, 2017)

Jazzberry said:


> oops thought it was a 660. We started out comparing a 186.00 660 clone to a new Stihl.
> You seem to be an authority on clones. Do you know for sure its junk or are you just flapping your gums? Dense people seem to do that a lot too.



I'm just flapping my gums. Because you don't have to be very brilliant to know they don't have the same crankshaft, bearings, connecting rods and that the quality of castings, forging and heat treatments are not as closely regulated as the real deal. There is a lot of black art and science to metallurgy and these clones are definitely not made in the same foundries Stihl uses. In fact, most of the critical machining, forging and heat treating is done in-house at Stihl. Even the critical plastic parts are injection molded by Stihl using state of the art processes. Chainsaws live hard lives with their air cooling, high power to weight ratios and less than ideal environments. They need quality metallurgy and this is not something a third party gets just because they know how to use a micrometer. 

Now not all Stihls are made to the same high standards. Some have cast pistons instead of forged (as just one example). But these Chinese copies are attempting to replicate Stihl's state of the art pro line. There's a reason why Stihls homeowner/farm saws cost less and produce less power/cc.

Yeah, I'm just flapping my gums. For all I know these $189 saws are made in state of the art factories using expert metallurgists, state of the art heat treating, and their production engineers have decades of experience producing reliable pro-level saws. Maybe they're not just cheap clones after all. You know, it's not that hard to make a saw. You just cast up some pistons and cylinders and supporting parts and bolt it all together. They already have the template. Don't forget the spark plug. It won't start without that. See, easy-peasy. Nothing to it. And you know it's gonna be durable, powerful and reliable because....well, people won't care because they understand you get what you pay for.


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## brenndatomu (Jul 11, 2017)

WoodyIsGoody said:


> It is a Chinese clone - just not of a Stihl. It's a clone of a Redmax G5000 of Zenoah which is a division of Husqvarna.


That's what I meant, clone of the same brand/model. I'm not saying the clone held up well at all...but they should have at least shown a side by side comparison of the "same model" .
My Poulan Pro probably wouldn't hold up as well as that Stihl did in that test either.
As far as the 660 clone goes...I don't need a big bore saw but a couple times a year...no way I'm spending $1200 for a very part time firewood saw...I'd love to buy an older big bore saw of just about any type...but all the chain saw nuts in this area and the fan boys on Ebay have the prices driven up to the "yeah right, that ain't happenin" range...even non runners. And if I'm gonna rebuild it and tie up $2-$300 anyways...seems like one of these Egg Roll saws might be fun to play with. And if it blows up...then I got $2-$300 wrapped up in a blown up "new" saw instead of some 30-40 YO pile that you can hardly get parts for anymore.
I get the safety concerns of a knockoff...I get the safety concerns some people have with riding motorcycle too...but I still do it, knowing I'm taking a risk...will the chain brake work on DimSum 660? IDK, but seems to me you have a much better chance of it working than the old crap I see for $200 that doesn't even have one...never did.

I had a problem with these guys knocking off Stihls stuff at first too...but like someone pointed out elsewhere...nobody has any problem buying AM parts to repair their car after it is out of warranty...and if someone put together a complete kit to build a new "1996 Ford F350" (or whatever truck you lust over) you can bet your sweet patootie that there would be a traffic jam of container ships at the docks haulin "new truck" kits in...anybody here have any AM parts on their car/truck?


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## WoodyIsGoody (Jul 11, 2017)

brenndatomu said:


> I had a problem with these guys knocking off Stihls stuff at first too...but like someone pointed out elsewhere...nobody has any problem buying AM parts to repair their car after it is out of warranty...and if someone put together a complete kit to build a new "1996 Ford F350" (or whatever truck you lust over) you can bet your sweet patootie that there would be a traffic jam of container ships at the docks haulin "new truck" kits in...anybody here have any AM parts on their car/truck?




It's already been pointed out that there's a difference between aftermarket parts, particularly if they are ancillary type parts, and copying the entire product.

But even on aftermarket parts like air and oil filters I've had bad experiences because they either had worse performance (for example, grit in the clean side of my air filter box) or an oil filter that had substantially different bypass valve trigger pressure than the OEM spec. Now I tend to stick with OEM equipment because, after many years of thinking I was being smart by saving a couple bucks, I learned it simply wasn't worth it and that many aftermarket parts that CLAIM to be superior are, in fact, inferior. I cannot find an aftermarket air filter that is as good as the very high quality 35,000 mile OEM filter for my Mazda CX-5.


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## brenndatomu (Jul 11, 2017)

WoodyIsGoody said:


> It's already been pointed out that there's a difference between aftermarket parts, particularly if they are ancillary type parts, and copying the entire product.
> 
> But even on aftermarket parts like air and oil filters I've had bad experiences because they either had worse performance (for example, grit in the clean side of my air filter box) or an oil filter that had substantially different bypass valve trigger pressure than the OEM spec. Now I tend to stick with OEM equipment because, after many years of thinking I was being smart by saving a couple bucks, I learned it simply wasn't worth it and that many aftermarket parts that CLAIM to be superior are, in fact, inferior. I cannot find an aftermarket air filter that is as good as the very high quality 35,000 mile OEM filter for my Mazda CX-5.


There are different grades of AM for sure...


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## Jazzberry (Jul 11, 2017)

Woody you are not listening to the fact nobody is comparing a clone to a real Stihl. You keep arguing with yourself.


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## WoodyIsGoody (Jul 11, 2017)

Jazzberry said:


> Woody you are not listening to the fact nobody is comparing a clone to a real Stihl. You keep arguing with yourself.



Actually, you admitted to comparing a clone to a Stihl when you said:



Jazzberry said:


> We started out comparing a 186.00 660 clone to a new Stihl.



Did you forget already? I think you are confused.

I will always compare a clone to the real thing. Because it makes the most sense to compare it to the thing it is trying to copy. But, make no mistake, it doesn't compare favorably unless you're just comparing outward appearances. I mean, sure, it'll go "vrooom-vrooom" but will it ever be a good saw? 

In case you were wondering, that was a rhetorical question.


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## Jags (Jul 14, 2017)

Gents - in the slow season the forum is a little more relaxed when it comes to banter.  This one is skirting the fringe edges.  Keep it respectful please.


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## sportbikerider78 (Jul 14, 2017)

I'm all for patents and all for protecting IP.  

At the same time, you have to understand that the superior product will win the race.  The chinese are cloning Honda engines like crazy.  I bought a harbor freight splitter with one of these engines.  However, if I split wood for a living, I would never have bought a knock off.  

The consumer for a $1200 Stihl will not buy a cheapo Chinese knock off because his paycheck is in that saw.  

Also, the cheap (and sometimes unethical) competition causes the name brand manufacturers to up their game..that's good for everyone.  Nothing like some competition to get a better product.  

Off topic...
Harley Davidson was going out of business for lots of reasons...but mainly because the Japanese motorcycle came to market.  
Regan put a HUGE tariff on Japanese motorcycles 700cc and up
Japan responds with dominating the <700cc market and moving 700cc> later to the states to avoid the tariffs.  
Harley was forced to make huge quality and engineering improvements to stay in business.


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## Jazzberry (Jul 14, 2017)

I would bet 80% of Harbor Freight's tools are Chinese clones. I would consider almost anything From HF to be temporary or disposable. Same thoughts on a Stihl clone. Gotta weigh the plus and minus on a 1200.00 savings vs the shorter lifespan. I am currently using my favorite saw for heavy milling and a clone would be attractive to me by saving wear and tear on my favorite saw. I still need much more info on them before I reach for my wallet. 

I thought AMF was the main problem with the crap years for Harley till Willie & co bought it back.


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## Jazzberry (Jul 14, 2017)

You can compare anything. Comparing a go cart to a Cadillac doesnt mean you think the go cart is equal to a Cadillac.




WoodyIsGoody said:


> Actually, you admitted to comparing a clone to a Stihl when you said:
> 
> Jazzberry said: ↑We started out comparing a 186.00 660 clone to a new Stihl 660.
> 
> ...


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## sportbikerider78 (Jul 14, 2017)

Jazzberry said:


> I thought AMF was the main problem with the crap years for Harley till Willie & co bought it back.



There may very well have been many reasons for them making crappy bikes.  The competition was also a big factor in their demise.


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## WoodyIsGoody (Jul 14, 2017)

Jazzberry said:


> You can compare anything. Comparing a go cart to a Cadillac doesnt mean you think the go cart is equal to a Cadillac.



There's no point in comparing things that are equal. The point in comparing things is to find their strong and weak points. If a saw pretends to be a clone of a 90cc Stihl chainsaw with all the same features, it should perform the job of a 90cc Stihl saw (even if not it's exact equal). It makes the most sense to compare a clone to the item being cloned. We know it's not going to be as good, the point of the comparison is to see how the clone stacks up to the item cloned. 

But if most purchaser accounts available on-line are any indication, the saw is not worth the time it takes to place the order. At least not as a 90cc saw meant to actually cut big wood.  If all you want is an expensive novelty puzzle, be my guest. You can research this saw all you want but you're wasting your time. And if you buy it as a tool you will be wasting your time and your money. Unless you don't want a saw to actually get things done.


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## brenndatomu (Jul 14, 2017)

WoodyIsGoody said:


> You can research this saw all you want but you're wasting your time. And if you buy it as a tool you will be wasting your time and your money. Unless you don't want a saw to actually get things done.


It appears you guys have switched to discussing the 090...but as far as the 660 clone goes, google around a bit, there are a _ton_ of threads out there on the 660 builds, and you will be hard pressed to find someone that regrets buying a flied lice "MS660" kit...


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## WoodyIsGoody (Jul 15, 2017)

brenndatomu said:


> It appears you guys have switched to discussing the 090...but as far as the 660 clone goes, google around a bit, there are a _ton_ of threads out there on the 660 builds, and you will be hard pressed to find someone that regrets buying a flied lice "MS660" kit...



Yes, I'm amazed at their tolerance for complete crap. Here's a sampling of buyers feedback:



> I received my kit late December. After reading all the threads, I knew this was going to be a challenge and I was up for it. I have access to a machine shop and also purchased some of the necessary tools including a pressure / vacuum tester. One really needs to take a go slow and double check everything approach. I would say the cases were decent, the cylinder needed a good deburring. The squish with gasket ended up at around .055. I milled off .025 off the base of the cylinder for a final squish of .021. Most of the issues I found had already been addressed. I think they improved the chain tentioner as far as not needing any brass tube to shim the end of the gear shaft. The materials are still low quality, but with some grease and running it back and forth a few times seem to help. My carburetor, the high speed needle was bent and I needed to straighten it. The clutch cover had at least .045 of run-out, got it down to .015. The chain bar studs were a miss match and one nut the threads were messed up, ordered two studs and nuts. The chain brake handle hits the muffler before it engages, needed to perform some "Redneck Engineering" to fix that. The plastic elbow that connects the fuel line to the tank line had flash in the tube so no fuel would come thru. Oil caps leaks, No heat foil or brass inserts for the top cover were included. Overall, no regrets!





> I had a problem with the kits I built running a 32 and 36" bar. When I would bury the bar the clutch would start slipping. The engine would say reved up but the chain would stop. That's a problem this saw should run that size bar. The problem was the clutch springs. In a 1mm stretch test the AM springs took about 4.5lbs more to stretch than OEM. Not a Scientific test but was good enough for me.





> Dave, did you replace just the clutch springs with OEM and get the clutch to stop slipping? I know the outer steel stamped clutch covers have lots of runout which doesn't make them spin with the brake off like the OEM ones.





> At the time I felt like i had wasted enough of the builders time so I just bought a new OEM clutch and sent it to him.





> And I just went OEM and good Oregon Drums on mine where it counts and Oregon Drums of all of the rest.....hence the recommendations. Funny how this stuff come full circle....
> 
> Here..a small world... Save yourselves from some hassle and just convert them.





> I don't remember the step in the base of the 56mm cylinders that I received from Huztl in Sept/Oct 2016. I will have to check when I get home this evening. The intake ports where the boot attaches were machined and they were not concentric.





> Conversations about a clone or part of a clone should not have versions. It is either an exact copy or not. It was at one time. Now it's a copy of a copy at an increased price. Look at your posts. Trying to pin down when the part was acceptable or not





> And...as I've said many times, and this thread demonstrates; these aren't OEM and aren't for everyone. To those thinking of building a business selling these things as complete "clone" saws...wow. That's a bad plan for so many reasons, I can't support that concept. For the hobby types, where these are simply mechanical puzzles with issues to work around? Pretty cool and it doesn't matter much if it starts as a blown up OEM or from scratch, there still will be things to work around with AM parts regardless of origins. And as demonstrated here these parts are a moving target, so issues I had may go away and new ones show up to keep things interesting. To those looking for stability and consistency...go OEM and you will be much happier there. This stuff is not for you. But why do we seem to till this ground over and over? And to Bed T, I'm still waiting for your store concept. That was one of the things I understood you were trying to build at one point in time, possibly a better source of parts for these for a better price? Is that still in the cards? And..did you ever completely debug your project saw after getting that entire tool room of expensive & frankly quite impressive shop tools?





> My sickness manifests itself in buying saws that aren't working or have other issues, troubleshooting the issues, and then coming up with solutions to make them work reliably. These saws come in the form of broken OEM and assembling / tweaking these Chinese parts kits. I really have little use for saws over 60cc and even then I can't honestly justify more then one small saw plus a backup. It's my therapy!





> As much as that would simplify things, I cant see it happening soon or ever with aftermarket parts.
> We could have it the way we want it but not at the price we want.
> There are factories willing to make us exactly what we want, with a lot of caveats.
> I looked into having a chainsaw cylinder made to my specs, it is a long and expensive process - the cliff notes version is 1000 pcs minimum, about a year of lead time, two identical samples needed to model from, after all steps approved and test cylinders approved they still expect 5% of cylinders to be defective on my dime, @$60K upfront plus shipping when finished - italian pistons and finishing, chinese manufactured cylinders - I wasnt willing to have crappy cylinders made and the length of time to recover on 950 cylinders is just ridiculous for us.
> To get the level of quality control we would really like....





> one thing potential sellers of non-OEM chainsaws should consider long and hard is legal issues
> a few sticky wickets -
> selling an item with OEM badges affixed, theft by deception, possibly mail fraud
> trademark infringement
> ...





> The parts in this box of parts should work together. If not why do we buy them. I see this isn't going anywhere so I'm out. The new smell has worn off





> We have seen guys with big leaks and pinched rings, all this is a bad sign.





> Consistency is a good baseline, we can all work with consistency even if the part is not right as long as it's consistently not right in the same way you can work through that...it's when it's inconsistent that we have real challenges. Consistently inconsistent is not a good baseline, when the parts are sourced from different suppliers who have only a passing understanding or care about consistency it's very difficult to work through and gets quite frustrating. This is really the only frustration being expressed here.
> 
> Some folks are ok with each saw being a unique puzzle because they like solving puzzles for the sake of solving puzzles. Some folks are ok with discovering workarounds and don't mind performing the workaround every time they find the need. Both can lead to some impressive creativity and problem solving. But for every one of us, irrespective of which approach we're comfortable with, the expected outcome is a functioning saw. If we don't get a functioning saw then we're all just wasting our time. For me, if the path to a functioning saw is different each time I'll completely lose interest in building saws because they become long term problems, no predictability in function or dysfunction. I can get that at work, flat out don't need it in my hobby



There are lots more where these came from but I think this post is long enough.

But yeah, amazingly tolerant folks considering the often serious nature of their problems.


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## brenndatomu (Jul 15, 2017)

WoodyIsGoody said:


> Yes, I'm amazed at their tolerance for complete crap. Here's a sampling of buyers feedback:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Complete crap? I read through all that (again) and I didn't see anybody that said "I wish I would have never wasted my money on this POS" One detractor but I don't think that person is an owner either...
"Amazingly tolerant"? I'd say just the opposite...MOST people were very skeptical at first, but many have come around to being semi impressed (for the $) once the saws are done. Some people like doing puzzles...some don't.


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## WoodyIsGoody (Jul 15, 2017)

brenndatomu said:


> Complete crap? I read through all that (again) and I didn't see anybody that said "I wish I would have never wasted my money on this POS"



Yes. That's what I'm talking about when I say they are amazingly tolerant:

I wouldn't tolerate such shoddy manufacture. But to each their own.


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## sportbikerider78 (Jul 17, 2017)

If you buy it knowing you're getting an inferior product, you're not surprised when it is an inferior product.


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## DodgyNomad (Jul 17, 2017)

sportbikerider78 said:


> If you buy it knowing you're getting an inferior product, you're not surprised when it is an inferior product.



I've played with one, and It reminded me of a very early Harbor Freight Predator motor in quality.   Cheap, but it "should" get the job done for a while, but the problem is milling, felling and stumping big wood really stresses a saw, and that's what you use a 660 for most of the time. 

I like knowing my saws are going to be working harder than I am, and outside of sharpening and adding gas and oil, I don't want to screw with a saw when I'm in the woods.


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## MrWhoopee (Jul 17, 2017)

bholler said:


> Yes but it is clearly a copy of a stihl saw.  You said yourself you couldt tell the difference other that the stickers.  And to be clear selling cheap copies is illegal.  The only reason it is legal at all is that it is a kit of parts not a saw.



Actually, they are selling an assembled copy of the MS070







and here's a copy of the Husqvarna 365, called Hus365






I'm not commenting on the ethics or morality of the issue. As for the legalities, there are no patents covering the entire device, and any patents on specific, unique features (if they ever existed) are long since expired. The only aspect that is legally protected is the brand name. As long as it doesn't claim to be a Stihl or Husqvarna, it's legal.


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## MrWhoopee (Jul 18, 2017)

sportbikerider78 said:


> If you buy it knowing you're getting an inferior product, you're not surprised when it is an inferior product.



The assumption that the Chinese can only produce inferior products is well entrenched in our minds. The same was true of Japanese products when I was young.


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## sportbikerider78 (Jul 18, 2017)

MrWhoopee said:


> The assumption that the Chinese can only produce inferior products is well entrenched in our minds. The same was true of Japanese products when I was young.



True.  
The Japanese had proven ability in manufacturing, but not bikes and cars.  At the same time, those are very different cultures, very different environments, and one is still very 3rd world.  Culture has a massive effect on the quality of products that can be turned out of a manufacturing facility.


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## MrWhoopee (Jul 18, 2017)

sportbikerider78 said:


> True.
> The Japanese had proven ability in manufacturing, but not bikes and cars.  At the same time, those are very different cultures, very different environments, and one is still very 3rd world.  Culture has a massive effect on the quality of products that can be turned out of a manufacturing facility.



The Chinese learn very quickly, and virtually every technologically advanced country in the world has been teaching them how it's done by building manufacturing facilities there and training them how to make the products. What were once junk wrenches from HF now come with a lifetime warranty.


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## WoodyIsGoody (Jul 18, 2017)

MrWhoopee said:


> The assumption that the Chinese can only produce inferior products is well entrenched in our minds. The same was true of Japanese products when I was young.



There's no doubt that reputable Chinese manufacturers are capable of matching some of the best quality in the world. Look to the iPhone for but one example. When the new iPhone is released this Fall or Winter, although the technology inside may be 1-2 years behind the competition (not China's fault), you can bet that the build quality will be the equal of the worlds best (like Samsung). But the majority of manufacturers in China are more interested in competing on price than quality. And reputable manufacturers don't steal other peoples intellectual property. 

Regardless of how advanced Chinese manufacturing becomes, ripped off clones of things like chainsaws that require advanced metallurgy and state of the art plastics manufacturing will always be far inferior. The complete clone 070 powerhead offered above is but one example. First off, it's a copy of an obsolete saw. There is no safety chain brake, it's missing hand guards, etc. This saw could not be used by a US company (assuming they were stupid enough to think it was going to save them some money) because OSHA wouldn't allow such an outdated and unsafe saw in the workplace. Secondly, the quality of critical parts that you can't see doom the reliability of the tool before the starter cord is pulled for the first time.

China has made great strides in quality of manufacture but the best manufacturers aren't thieves of other's protected intellectual property.


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## sportbikerider78 (Jul 19, 2017)

Keep in mind patents expire and then anyone (even stateside) legally copy a design.  Or the item, part or design that is patented has a very easy way to work around it.  I've done it myself to reverse engineer a better product for our automation equipment.


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## WoodyIsGoody (Jul 19, 2017)

sportbikerider78 said:


> Keep in mind patents expire and then anyone (even stateside) legally copy a design.  Or the item, part or design that is patented has a very easy way to work around it.  I've done it myself to reverse engineer a better product for our automation equipment.



Products that are clones (by definition) have not been engineered around patents. 

While it's true that patents expire, intellectual property encompasses far more than just patents and most IP never expires. That's why Disney can legally prohibit anyone from displaying unlicensed likenesses of (for example) Mickey Mouse. It doesn't even need to say "Mickey Mouse", a resemblance is all it takes.

The seller of the 070 powerhead clone mis-labels the package contents to sneak it through Customs. If you order more than one, they arrive in separate packages to minimize losses if confiscated. Don't try to tell me this is above board - I wasn't born yesterday. The only thing worse than cheap-ass power tools is stolen cheap-ass power tools that are illegally imported.


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## MrWhoopee (Jul 19, 2017)

WoodyIsGoody said:


> The seller of the 070 powerhead clone mis-labels the package contents to sneak it through Customs. If you order more than one, they arrive in separate packages to minimize losses if confiscated.



Do you know this to be fact or is this your assumption?

I ask, because the second example (HUS365) is offered for sale on eBay. I know, from personal experience, that listings on eBay that violate copyright or other IP rights are very quickly taken down.


edit:
I just discovered that the MS070 clone is offered on eBay, and ships from the U.S.


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## Ashful (Jul 19, 2017)

WoodyIsGoody said:


> While it's true that patents expire, intellectual property encompasses far more than just patents and most IP never expires. That's why Disney can legally prohibit anyone from displaying unlicensed likenesses of (for example) Mickey Mouse. It doesn't even need to say "Mickey Mouse", a resemblance is all it takes.


Mickey Mouse is a registered trademark, and this has absolutely nothing to do with patented technology, or any form of patent law.  Patents expire, and while they can usually be extended (once), it is nothing like a registered trademark.


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## BrotherBart (Jul 19, 2017)

Just because.


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