# I am only getting one to three hours of burn time from my new wood stove - is this acceptable?



## markst44 (Nov 28, 2011)

Hello,

I live in southern Maine and we installed a wood stove this summer, so that we could have supplemental heat this winter.  After a few weeks of obsessing
over my fires, I have learned how to make and keep a nice, hot fire.  The only problem is that my burns only last between one and three hours.

Stove - Bosca Limit 450.  Freestanding stove with 47,600 BTU's.  Ash bin for quick lighting, glass front (for me to obsess over flame color), wood storage underneath.

Wood - Bark-less "Naked Wood" hardwood. I was going to include the types of hardwood, but their website is under construction.

So, I am at odds because most of what I have seen online says to make small, hot fires to 1) reduce the amount of pollution and 2) get the most from your wood.  Once I get a nice bed of coals, and I start to put in bigger logs, I can only fit about four medium sized logs (or three really big ones) since my stove's fire box is small - only 16 and 1/2 inches wide (the wood is "16-ish").  Some of my logs have to squeeze in diagonally on top.  So ... I put the logs in, open the damper for about 3 to five minutes, and then choke it down to about half.  If I do this, I get vivid, bright orange flames and the logs are burnt in about an hour - then the coals burn down in about another hour.  The stove, when operated this way, starts at about 350 degrees, gets up to about 425 at peek burn, and then cools to 325 as the coals cook down.  Again, I get about two hours.

But ... my 76 year old neighbor, who's been burning wood almost as long, tells me to do the exact opposite - load up the stove and then choke it down to nothing.  I have a strong feeling this isn't the right way, but I wanted to see if I could get a longer burn time.  When I do this (choke the fire down immediately) my flames are blue-ish purple, and appear to hover about an inch above the logs.  The only thing is that since the damper is almost closed, the stove gets super hot, and the logs almost appear to vaporize - they don't burn like normal, and the whole load just kind of vaporizes and turns to charcoal in about an hour.  

So, to get my longest burns ... I put in as much wood as I can (about 4 logs), choke it down to about halfway, once I see bright orange flames, choke it down to about a quarter once things get really cooking, and then open the damper all the way, once I'm down to large pieces of charcoal (to cook them down to smaller pieces).  If I do this, I get three hours of burn time - two hours of fire, and one hour of charcoal burning down.  Is this really pathetic, or is it how things have to go for a stove with a smaller fire box?  Some additional questions ...

1) After I have a nice bed of coals, whats the best way to load the wood - should I leave gaps for air or not?  My neighbor says no.

2) I have read that the "ideal" temperature for clean burns is between 400 and 600 degrees.  But, if I am only loading 4 pieces of wood, is this still the case?

3) I could definitely fit more logs - probably about 6 total, but I don't know how much to fill the fire box.  I currently leave it about half to three-quarters full (from top to bottom).  

I have included two pictures ...

(1) The stove during a hot burn - 4 logs, 400 degrees, damper half way closed.

(2) The stove after two hours - down to charcoal, 275 degrees.

Sorry for the long post, but appreciate any help!

Thanks,

Mark in Maine


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## leeave96 (Nov 28, 2011)

I assume your stove is an EPA certified stove.  If so, I'd be burning with the goal of a no smoke out the chimney burn.  If that allows, like your neighbor says, you to pack the stove and damper the stove down (which ought to maximize your burn times), then do it.

If you are getting plenty of heat dampered down - even better.

Do some searching, ask as many questions as you like - there is much to learn on this forum.

Happy burning,
Bill


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## markst44 (Nov 28, 2011)

Thanks for your reply.  Yes, it is EPA certified.  Under which circumstances is my stove woking its best ...

1) bright orange flames, looks like the logs are burning like in a fireplace, 425 degrees.  Damper closed half way.

2) bluish flames, a trail of hot vapor is being sucked up and then around the baffle, 425 degrees.  Damper closed three -quarters of the way.

I ask because I can get the stove to run at the same temperature, under both conditions.  I assume that one way is the right way, however, since the flames activity is so different.

Lastly 3) how long should I let my charcoal burn down until I reload?  I ask because the charcoal quickly fills the bottom of the firebox, and I worry about is spilling out.
If I only burn three logs at a time, it isn't an issue.  But if I burn four or five, the charcoal really piles up.

Thanks!


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## Hass (Nov 28, 2011)

1) After I have a nice bed of coals, whats the best way to load the wood - should I leave gaps for air or not?  My neighbor says no.

Air will find it's way... you don't really need to go out of your way to make sure there's air gaps.

2) I have read that the "ideal" temperature for clean burns is between 400 and 600 degrees.  But, if I am only loading 4 pieces of wood, is this still the case?

Yes

3) I could definitely fit more logs - probably about 6 total, but I don't know how much to fill the fire box.  I currently leave it about half to three-quarters full (from top to bottom). 

With a stove without a thermostat, you fill the stove according to how much heat you need. If you want long burns, cram it until you can't fit anything else in. If you want a short fire to take the chill off, only load it slightly. When using EPA stoves w/ secondary burn you always want a hot fire. Are you seeing a secondary burn up on the top of the stove?

Generally what people are doing with a secondary burning stove... Is leaving the damper full open until the stove is well on it's way to temp (~400 degrees depending on stove), then damp it down to 1/2 or so... Then when it reaches ~500 shut it down all of the way. take a look outside when you're burning, if there's no visable smoke you're burning great. If you damp it down and see smoke... You're doing something wrong.

I predict MANY will be asking you about your wood. How long has it been seasoned? Do you know the moisture content? 425 for a stove is on the low side. If you're burning a softwood 3 hours will a stove w/ small firebox wouldn't surprise me... But I believe you said hardwood.

I believe there's a recent thread about "how do you start your fire"... Read that, was good info in there.

If you load your air North/South you should get a shorter hotter fire... If you load it East/West you should get a longer fire as the air is unable to move as freely through the wood.. (east west refers to the orientation of the stove... If you're looking directly at the stove east/west would be to the left/right.. North/south is front/back)
Someone will probably post up the Canadian video introducing people to EPA stoves/woodburning techniques... maybe I'll look it up

http://www.nanaimo.ca/EN/main/departments/Community-Planning/Environmental-Planning/BurnItSmart.html


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## cwill (Nov 28, 2011)

had to do some digging on the size of your stove, specs say 1.8cf box so its not super small. Whats the moisture content of your wood? Have you had the stove hotter than 425 at all?  Blue vapor flames sounds like the secondary's are just barely starting to fire. sounds like maybe the door is not sealing tight or another air issue. Ill let the experts make the call.

here is the link to another site with the "barkless" wood.barkless wood  they don't say if the wood is dry just bark-less. IMO that's some pricey wood, i'd start scrounging asap

stove specs


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## Dix (Nov 28, 2011)

Mark, welcome to the forums 

Please add you stove to your signature line, and your location (roughly) to your profile. That'll help alot !!

Also, what are ya burning?


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## karl (Nov 28, 2011)

Those are pretty looking stoves.  I don't know if anybody else on here has one to compare yours to.  You said:

So, to get my longest burns ... I put in as much wood as I can (about 4 logs), choke it down to about halfway, once I see bright orange flames, choke it down to about a quarter once things get really cooking, and then open the damper all the way, once Iâ€™m down to large pieces of charcoal (to cook them down to smaller pieces).  If I do this, I get three hours of burn time - two hours of fire, and one hour of charcoal burning down.  Is this really pathetic, or is it how things have to go for a stove with a smaller fire box?  Some additional questions ...

That's pretty much how to burn a stove. The choking down halfway once you see orange flames, may be a bit early.  As for the length of burn.  It seems a little short and your firebox isn't tiny at 1.8 cubic feet.  The general rule around this forum is you need 2 cubic feet or bigger to burn all night and heat the place.  I think most of the guys on here with stoves in the 1.8 range are getting 5 or 6 hours of good heat.  I'm refering to non cat stoves like yours.

If you're having a coal problem, I'm thinking your wood isn't dry enough.  Also, that stove should get up in the 600 degree range.  Maybe not now when its warm but certainly when it gets colder.  Go get some scrap 2x4s mix your wood with that about 2/3 your wood 1/3 2x4 and see what happens.

And don't be afraid to fill the stove full.  Most of on here play Chenga with the stove when we are filling it on a cold night.


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## WoodpileOCD (Nov 28, 2011)

markst44 said:
			
		

> Thanks for your reply.  Yes, it is EPA certified.  Under which circumstances is my stove woking its best ...
> 
> 1) bright orange flames, looks like the logs are burning like in a fireplace, 425 degrees.  Damper closed half way.
> 
> ...



You are going to have to let the charcoal burn down to a reasonable layer of coals on the bottom before you reload.  Maybe an inch if they are spread around.  If you don't and keep on adding wood, you'll end up with so much charcoal that you can't get much wood in the stove but it sounds like you figured that part out.   If you pull most of the coals toward the front of the firebox and open up the air you'll find that you still have a lot of heat in there to be extracted.  It's not as much as you will get in the early part of your burn but it has to be burned down none the less before you reload.  When it gets cold and you're burning 24/7 you will fall into a rhythm for doing this over and over.    

There are several threads on the 'burn cycle' here where you can get some good info.  

Welcome, you've come to the right place to learn.  Lots of more experienced burners than me that will chime in I'm sure.


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## HotCoals (Nov 28, 2011)

Tell us what you do with the primary air?


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## begreen (Nov 28, 2011)

I'm going to guess that this is about a 1.2 cu ft stove, but can be more precise with full firebox dimensions. If so a 3-4 hr burn may be about the best it will do. Instead of putting the fresh charge of wood on the large, hot coal bed, try burning the coals down a bit more by opening up the air say back to 50%. Try to reduce the coal bed to less than half what is showing in the picture. Then add the medium splits, filling in the gaps with smaller splits. Pack it tightly. Run it with open air about 5 minutes, then throttle it down until the flames get lazy That wafting, purple blue flame is a good target. Check in about 15 minutes and if the flames are vigorous again, turn down the air all the way. The stove temp will climb as secondary combustion burns off the wood gases.


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## SlyFerret (Nov 28, 2011)

How are you defining "burn"?

That may affect the answer.

-SF


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## CTYank (Nov 28, 2011)

I see lots of tidbits about the stove temp, but no indication of WHERE or HOW measured.

Bottom line: you need internal temps, at the secondary air discharge of 1000+ deg F for secondary combustion in a non-cat stove. Thus you'll need to devise some rules of thumb to relate your external temp to that which enables secondaries.

All wood should be as dry as possible- lights and settles down most quickly.
Min primary draft to enable secondaries; no putzing about with stack damper.

Species of wood & stacking determine burn length.
Black locust/hickory/oak burn much longer than pine/silver maple.
Stacking wood in firebox so some pieces sit tight with others makes them burn as though much bigger.

Don't expect miracles. Too pricey.

Forgot to suggest that you search the archives here FIRST, saves a lot of traffic both of massive inquiries and voluminous restatements of prior posts.


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## Fod01 (Nov 28, 2011)

My 2 cents:  

If you reload onto a full bed of coals, the entire load will outgas very quickly resulting in a short, very hot fire.
Its better to let the coals burn down, then rake them towards the door before reloading.

The vid below is worth a watch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=4PPmsMdEqEA

Gabe


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## gzecc (Nov 28, 2011)

Garbage in garbage out. Sounds like very low quality fuel. Very detailed on everything except the fuel quality.


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## kalevi (Nov 28, 2011)

I've got a PE Vista insert which has a very small firebox. After loading on a bed of coals, I get very good flames for about 2 hours and then coals the shape of the splits that slowly fall apart while still putting out heat for another 2 to 4 hours or so. I usually load again after 3 hours. I can still get splits to light after 6 hours from the coals that remain.  My wood was cut and split 3 years ago and is a mix of maple, oak, birch, and beech.


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## HighHeat22 (Nov 28, 2011)

I have been trying to extend my burn times also. I get about 4 hours per load. about 3 burning and 1 with coals.  Hard to get over night burn even with muffling down air. Someday soon want to get better stove. I know I have a much better burn time this year with better seasoned wood supply. It sounds like with a better fuel supply you can extend your burn times a little more.  Good Luck.


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## Trktrd (Nov 28, 2011)

I find that if I load N/S I can get an all nighter no problem. E/W seems to eat more wood and produce less heat.


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## Chettt (Nov 28, 2011)

get it hot and choke it down.


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## Backwoods Savage (Nov 29, 2011)

markst44 said:
			
		

> Hello,
> 
> I live in southern Maine and we installed a wood stove this summer, so that we could have supplemental heat this winter.  After a few weeks of obsessing
> over my fires, I have learned how to make and keep a nice, hot fire.  The only problem is that my burns only last between one and three hours.
> ...



HI Mark and welcome to the forum. 

Please do not listen too much to that 76 year old neighbor! Yes, I'm not too far from that but his way of burning is the old way and it did not work good in the old days either. Certainly it will not work in today's stoves. 

After reading your posts and then seeing the two pictures, I will flatly state that your wood is not the best. Or should I say it is not dry enough. One of the key factors to give this away is seeing that big charcoal bed. When wood is not properly dried it will leave you with a huge bed of coals. I shudder every year when I read that some folks have to take to scooping out those hot coals and throwing them out so they can get wood into the stove. All wasted heat and wasted dollars. 

Simply put, dry wood is the cure you need and it is difficult to find. The only way you will be assured to have good dry wood is to either start putting it up yourself or buying it at least a year before you are ready to burn it. If you are trying to burn something like oak, then you need more than a year for it to dry enough to burn.

Wood needs time to dry and it also has to be handled correctly. Firstly, drying time should not start until that wood has been cut to length, split and then stacked out in the wind. It also has to be stacked so the wood is off the ground. If it is covered, then it should be covered only on the top of the pile and never the sides. Stack it and leave it for a year or much better, two years and then you will get those longer burn times and you'll get a whole lot more heat from each piece of wood.


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## firefighterjake (Nov 29, 2011)

markst44 said:
			
		

> Thanks for your reply.  Yes, it is EPA certified.  Under which circumstances is my stove woking its best ...
> 
> 1) bright orange flames, looks like the logs are burning like in a fireplace, 425 degrees.  Damper closed half way.
> 
> ...



I'm going with Option 2 . . . bluish flames are usually a good sign . . . and it sounds as though you're running the stove right.

I think a few folks have touched on this and I think this is your problem . . . you may be reloading too soon. Generally I like the coals to get to the size of baseballs or softballs before reloading . . . if you load too soon you'll end up with a whole lot of coals and not much room for the wood . . . not to mention the possibility as Fod said of having the wood burn quickly . . . and having your fire go thermo-nuclear on you which is a mite scary. Try waiting longer before reloading . . . during the dead of winter you might have more of a problem with excess coals -- especially if you're loading more frequently to keep the heat pouring out -- but this time of year with the temps we've been having you should be able to wait much longer before reloads.

Welcome to the forum by the way . . . and thanks for posting pics . . . we like pics . . . and usually have to ask for them. You submitted them in the first post.

Ask questions . . . folks here are wicked friendly . . . and we love to seem a lot smarter than some of us are by answering questions.

The wood being stored under the stove . . . is this stove designed to do so . . . or is this just something you've been doing . . . I only ask since some stoves are designed so you can do this . . . and some folks just do it because they saw a picture in a catalog or magazine . . .


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## markst44 (Nov 29, 2011)

Thanks for all the feedback!  It is appreciated.  It looks like I put a lot of effort into researching stoves, but not enough on looking into my wood source.  When I started calling around in last August, all the local suppliers I found in southern Maine were sold out.  I bought this wood from an outfit in NH - I wish I had more information on the wood type, but their main site is down.  Next year, I will start the process much earlier.  The only problem is that I only have storage for three cords, so it will be tough to "get ahead" on my wood I suppose.  If anyone knows of a good supplier of dry wood in Southern Maine ... I'm all ears.

As for the wood storage question from firefighterjake ... it doesn't reference it in my stove's ridiculously small manual.  But, before I started using it this way, the bottom of the box would be really hot, and now it's almost cold.  The wood gets warm in there, but only the top pieces (which I keep out of contact with the bottom of the fire box).  Does this sound reasonable?

I will go on and read more posts about lighting techniques, etc.  Thanks!


Mark


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## fredarm (Nov 29, 2011)

If you have to buy wood and don't have a lot of storage, buy "seasoned" wood in the spring and stack it so it can dry all summer.  And avoid oak if possible, it takes at least 2 years to dry (unless it was standing dead, but even then the bottom half of the truck can take over a year to be ready to burn).


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## sebring (Nov 29, 2011)

Probably want a CAT stove for longer burn times. I cant get much more than 3 hrs out of my epa stove either.


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## DexterDay (Nov 29, 2011)

sebring said:
			
		

> Probably want a CAT stove for longer burn times. I cant get much more than 3 hrs out of my epa stove either.



3 hrs out of a 30-NC???? Thats Crazy. I can get 10 peices of kindling to last 3 hrs. A box that holds that much wood should be burning for at least 6. I can get 6 hrs with a good load of Pine and Silver Maple (soft). 

You firebox is double the size of the OP's? 3.5 cu ft.


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## Hogwildz (Nov 29, 2011)

sebring said:
			
		

> Probably want a CAT stove for longer burn times. I cant get much more than 3 hrs out of my epa stove either.



There is something seriously wrong there. You should get 8+ hours no problem!
Your either loading with too small of pieces, smaller loads, &/or burning with the air open.

Is that thing glowing by chance?


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## Wood Duck (Nov 29, 2011)

I have a smallish stove and get maybe four or five hours of heat from it, so you're not too far off if you're getting four hours between reloads. A lot depends on the wood. If you post pictures we can probably tell you the sort of wood you have - show the bark, end of splits, and the side of splits if possible.

I agree with everyone else that you shouldn't load too much wood too soon on hot coals. Try raking the coals to the front and adding just one split on top. I get lots of heat this way and the coals burn down. Sometimes I repeat this several times to get the coals burnt down, and get hours of heat from just a few new splits.


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## woodchip (Nov 29, 2011)

sebring said:
			
		

> Probably want a CAT stove for longer burn times. I cant get much more than 3 hrs out of my epa stove either.



I easily get over 2 hours burn time using old pallets here, and that's with reasonably small box.

Good quality dry hardwood should last a lot longer than that if being burned to maximum efficiency.


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## Wood Duck (Nov 29, 2011)

You will read it over and over here, but it is good advice so I'll repeat; EPA stoves (at least the non-cat types) work best when burned in cycles. Load the stove, let 'er burn and do nothing but adjust the primary air control as needed, then let the coals burn down a little before you reload. Adding wood mid-cycle is irresistable at times, but not the best way to run the stove. Also, load the stove fully for long burns. I find that having pieces of various sizes and lengths allows me to pack the stove more fully, which tends to make a longer burn. Finally, try to learn the different types of wood and select the most dense types for long burns. There can be a big difference between the most dense woods like oak and hickory compared to the least dense like soft maple or aspen. I think with practice you'll get longer burns, or at least reach a point where you feel like you're getting the longest burn possible with your stove so you'll feel better.


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## oldspark (Nov 29, 2011)

Yep wood duck has it pegged, you are going to learn as you burn, I have a new chimney this year and am still trying to figure out the best way to run my summit.


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## firefighterjake (Nov 29, 2011)

markst44 said:
			
		

> Thanks for all the feedback!  It is appreciated.  It looks like I put a lot of effort into researching stoves, but not enough on looking into my wood source.  When I started calling around in last August, all the local suppliers I found in southern Maine were sold out.  I bought this wood from an outfit in NH - I wish I had more information on the wood type, but their main site is down.  Next year, I will start the process much earlier.  The only problem is that I only have storage for three cords, so it will be tough to "get ahead" on my wood I suppose.  If anyone knows of a good supplier of dry wood in Southern Maine ... I'm all ears.
> 
> As for the wood storage question from firefighterjake ... it doesn't reference it in my stove's ridiculously small manual.  But, before I started using it this way, the bottom of the box would be really hot, and now it's almost cold.  The wood gets warm in there, but only the top pieces (which I keep out of contact with the bottom of the fire box).  Does this sound reasonable?
> 
> ...



Unless the manual says you can store the wood under the stove I think I would be leery of doing so . . . what does the manual say about clearances to combustibles . . . probably doesn't mention clearance under the stove . . . but seeing the clearances for sides, back, etc. may give us a general idea about whether it would be safe to store the wood under the stove.


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## woodchip (Nov 29, 2011)

Trouble about advising people not to keep wood under stoves is you see pictures like this over here......

http://www.infobarrel.com/Media/Wood_stoves

http://www.homewoodfireplaces.co.uk/

And of course, people (especially newbies who want to dry wet wood fast) see it and copy it. 

Potentially very dangerous  ;-)


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