# New gasifier vs old "smoke dragon" efficiency



## dlabrie (Jul 12, 2016)

I am getting ready to pull the trigger on a new Portage &  Main gasifier OWB. I have spoken to two folks that have them and they are happy with them. However, they couldn't tell me if they burned any less wood due to the fact that one guy replaced a gasifier OWB, and it's  the other's first OWB. 

I have been burning 9+ full cord/year in my 15 yr old Central Boiler can anyone who has replaced an old boiler with a new gasification boiler tell me if they burned significantly less wood? 

Thanks


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## Karl_northwind (Jul 12, 2016)

the short answer is "yes"  with no qualification as to "how much?"  that will depend on a lot of factors that are user/fuel/load based.  the key thing is going to be to have dry wood, as in 25% or less.


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## leon (Jul 13, 2016)

Plan on splitting the living daylights out of your firewood. 
I split mine down to kindling size on my old hand fired 
wood boiler and I had little to no smoke and lots of heat.

Have you looked at a P+M wood chip burner for your heating needs?

There are other wood chip burners on the market too. I am unsure 
if Messersmith still makes a chip burner for home use. 

The ideal would be to operate a wood chip burner to provide a 
steady fire for your needs with a buffer storage tank in your garage.

Short of having a hot air furnace to dry your cordwood firewood in a 
dry closed in area its a bit a pickle unless you have a water to air heat 
exchanger for a firewood storage room to keep drying the wood.

A chip burner also burns very clean and leaves little ash.


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## woodsmaster (Jul 13, 2016)

leon said:


> Plan on splitting the living daylights out of your firewood.
> I split mine down to kindling size on my old hand fired
> wood boiler and I had little to no smoke and lots of heat.
> 
> ...



 How is a wood chip boiler ideal if you don't have a bunch of wood chips ? It seems to me it would be about like a pellet boiler. You would have to buy fuel or a chipper to chip it all.?.?.


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## leon (Jul 14, 2016)

If I remember his situation correctly he has timber to 
use to make fuel wood and motorized chippers are 
not that expensive to rent.

If he has a a tractor to use a PTO wood chipper 
would be ideal in his case.

The other thing is if not he would have to look into investing
in building a simple kiln and throwing the cord wood in the kiln and 
and using the water to air heat exchanger to heat the kiln.

If he uses his garage for a simple wood kiln all the better but a 
wood chipper is more cost effective as it burns more efficiently 
than a gasser anyway.

There are a lot of loggers looking to make wood chips for the big wood 
pellet maker in his area too so a barter/swap would be an option for him
with little work other than tarping his annual supply of wood chips and 
filling the chip hopper of his boiler.


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## warno (Jul 14, 2016)

I'm so lost here. Why would the OP need a kiln to dry wood? What's wrong with the good old fashion way of stacking it out back? Also you are throwing alot of "ifs" at the situation, if they have a tractor with a pto, if they have extra money laying around for a chipper. The OP question is about the efficiency of a new gasser vs. old smoke dragon not about buying a self fed unit. 

So to the OP, I cannot personally say about the P&M gasser but I have heard many many great reviews on it. And I would say that yes that boiler would be more effeincent then your current unit.


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## dlabrie (Jul 14, 2016)

My wood is always stacked and dried for at least a year. I cut the wood off of my own property but would like to burn less. I also have a bandsaw mill and the tailings make their way to the firebox as well  Around here in NH you pay a premium for a log truck load of hardwood because it all goes to the chipping mills now for power and pellets.


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## STIHLY DAN (Jul 17, 2016)

new boiler may need more than a year for the wood to dry down to its liking.


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## leon (Jul 18, 2016)

STIHLY DAN said:


> new boiler may need more than a year for the wood to dry down to its liking.


=====================================================================================================

That is why I suggested a wood chip burner or splitting the firewood to 
kindling size a Zurn garage heater fed from the outdoor boiler supply 
would use forced air heat to dry all the wood in the least expensive way.

The same goes with installing firebrick in the firebox like I did filling it 
half full to the flue pipe by lining the rest of the firebox walls to create 
huge thermal mass to keep the fires very hot and shed the heat created 
slowly back into the firebox walls without any cavitation corrosion from 
fire contacting the boiler walls.


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## hondaracer2oo4 (Aug 3, 2016)

I too am in New Hampshire. I heated for 4 years with a hardy h4 burning around 12 cords. I bought a heatmaster g200 last year. I burned rift around 8. I was behind on drying though because of my old boiler and I would guess that all of my oak which accounted for about 50 percent of my wood was 30-35 percent moisture content. This year I will be in much better shape with wood that has been CSS for over a year. You will go from 9-6 cords I would guess. Maybe a little less. You will be happy with the reduction. Don't count out the heatmaster g200 though If you haven't bought yet. I can't say enough good things about it. I got mine from Richard emmons in maine at mainly customs. He is a great guy, give him a call if you are interested in the heatmasters.


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## muncybob (Aug 4, 2016)

If the statement about splitting the daylights out of the wood is made because we are talking about a gasser here just be aware that not all gassers need playing card size splits.


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## hondaracer2oo4 (Aug 4, 2016)

You certainly don't need to split the daylights out of wood for my g200. I run splits between 4-10 inches. Just need to be around 25 percent mc. That's what's important. Also need to be split to stack well. Round pieces don't burn great in the gasser because of the smaller amount of surface area sitting on the coal bed. I found that less than 20 percent mc in the g200 continues to charcoal down when idling which results in extra wood usage. A downside of not having storage and running flat out like a euro gasser. 25 mc seems to be the happy medium.


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## dlabrie (Aug 4, 2016)

hondaracer2oo4 said:


> I too am in New Hampshire. I heated for 4 years with a hardy h4 burning around 12 cords. I bought a heatmaster g200 last year. I burned rift around 8. I was behind on drying though because of my old boiler and I would guess that all of my oak which accounted for about 50 percent of my wood was 30-35 percent moisture content. This year I will be in much better shape with wood that has been CSS for over a year. You will go from 9-6 cords I would guess. Maybe a little less. You will be happy with the reduction. Don't count out the heatmaster g200 though If you haven't bought yet. I can't say enough good things about it. I got mine from Richard emmons in maine at mainly customs. He is a great guy, give him a call if you are interested in the heatmasters.



Thanks for the info. I will look at the g200, seeing that I called Portage & Main to finalize the deal on the EGR250 and they still do not have the all of the paperwork done that allows them to sell in the US.


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## hondaracer2oo4 (Aug 4, 2016)

Richards cell number is 
+1 (207) 205-0749. If he doesn't pick up he will get right back to you. I just passed his place last week and he had g100 g200 and g400 in stock. Super nice guy, worth giving him a call. Also check out outdoorwoodfurnaceinfo.com forum for all outdoor wood boiler guys.


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## dlabrie (Aug 8, 2016)

hondaracer2oo4 said:


> Richards cell number is
> +1 (207) 205-0749. If he doesn't pick up he will get right back to you. I just passed his place last week and he had g100 g200 and g400 in stock. Super nice guy, worth giving him a call. Also check out outdoorwoodfurnaceinfo.com forum for all outdoor wood boiler guys.



I contacted Richard and it looks like it could work for me, thanks. I wonder if I could come down and take a look at your system sometime?


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## hondaracer2oo4 (Aug 8, 2016)

Absolutely. Only thing is that I am building a garage and the boiler is temporarily disconnected for atleast a few more weeks.


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## dlabrie (Sep 3, 2016)

I put a deposit down on a Heatmaster G200 a few weeks ago  and agreed to let Richard Emmons  demo it at the Lancaster, NH fair. That way he is already nearby and will come by my house and install it on Tuesday after the fair. Thanks hondaracer2oo4  for pointing me in his direction. I went to the fair yesterday to see my new furnace. Here are a couple of pictures. I'll post some more after it is installed at my house. Thank you to all for your input.


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## hondaracer2oo4 (Sep 3, 2016)

Awesome! I bought Richards "show" G200 boiler last year that he burned at all the fairs. He takes good care of it so no worries there. You are going to love it. A little bit of a different technique to it compared to your 4436 but nothing significant. Feel free to ask me any questions, I will be happy to help!


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## 2Bits (Sep 5, 2016)

Hi Dlabrie,

I came across this thread and just had to logon and leave some thoughts/info...

First off, your going to love your gasifier from a wood consumption perspective. They definitely burn tons (literally) less wood than the old "smoke dragons" like the Central Boiler classic you have. Polar Furnace used to have a study on their website which detailed the results of testing they did in their lab comparing their G-Class to conventional outdoor wood furnace. They tested against their own conventional Updraft unit and if I remember right, it was 60% less wood on the larger models and around 55-55% less on the smaller models. (They have updated their website and unfortunately the study didn't make it onto the new site. You could probably still find the old site with time machine or similar site) I also talked to one of their reps in southern Minnesota and he told me some people were saying they felt the 60% less wood when compared to the old central boiler classic models was conservative!

I sometimes try to imagine how big the pile of wood would be when all the wood burned in conventional units over the years was stacked in a single pile. If I'm right I think a saw a number in a report somewhere claiming up to 60,000 conventional OWBs have been sold. Take that and multiply by at least 10 cords of wood for an average and you get 600,000 cords annually going through those things. Placed end to end that would be a line of firewood 909 miles long! That's farther than driving from Baltimore, MD to Orlando, FL!! Then I imagine that chain of wood reduced by 60%. It's mind boggling really. Then I start doing the math on the hours of labor going into those extra 300,000 cords...

Anyway I was able to see the G2 Polar G-Class burning at the EAA airshow in Oshkosh. In fact I happened by the booth when they guy was in the process of lighting it in the morning and it took literally less than 2 minutes to get the unit going. There was smoke coming out of the chimney for no more than a minute or two. It was amazing really. I walked by the unit multiple times over the 3 days I was there and never saw it smoke. 

The guy at the booth told me three factors contribute the the higher efficiency. 1. A very clean burn(no smoke), 2. the clean burn allows for what he called "a real tube type heat exchanger" (no creosote buildup). 3. System to easily keep the flues clean from dust so they can continue to exchange all the heat and keep the stack temperature around 270F.

I've looked at all the outdoor gassers on the market multiple times at shows and have seen all of them burn except the Edge and I really think the Polar Furnace units are the highest quality units. The heat master units looks pretty solid as well but when you compare the motors for example and the fit and finish and all the features the Polar has there is no question to me the Polar Furnace units are the creme-de-la-cream of outdoor furnaces. In my mind Polar Furnace is the best, then probably heat master, followed by P&M. The Central Boiler Classic Edge is the lowest priced unit and it shows... It's pretty bare bones. It has an impressive looking heavy latch but if you inspect things for a  few minutes it's pretty clear it's a budget unit all around.

Anyway good luck with your heat master. I predict your 9+ cord will drop to at least half and lower. Maybe even as low as 3 cord. But you have to be careful. last year for example was a really mild winter in most of North America. People used half the amount of wood last year compared to the year before which was one of the coldest on record using the same unit. So if you burned 9 last year I would expect you burned almost double that the year before...

Good Luck and happy gassing...


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## hondaracer2oo4 (Sep 5, 2016)

Buyer beware of Polar furnaces. Arthur Turple I believe is a coowner of that company. Turple owned a company you may have heard of before called 'Wood Doctor'. He folded the company up when the boilers started to fail and wouldn't honor any warranties. Just Google his name and you will get all kinds of stuff. On an interesting side note, the new Portage and Main boiler looks identical to the Polar furnace. Check it out on each companies websites. Very strange.


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## 2Bits (Sep 13, 2016)

Before getting into what I really want to post about I was able to find that wood consumption report on Polars old site I was referring to in my previous post using waybackmachine. Check it out:

http://web.archive.org/web/20160423020319/http://www.polarfurnace.com/performance_info.aspx


Honda regarding your post above,

I have to point out that a lot of what you say in your post above is false or misleading...



hondaracer2oo4 said:


> Arthur Turple I believe is a coowner of that company(polar)



False
Turple has never owned any part of Polar Furnace. 




hondaracer2oo4 said:


> Arthur owned a company you may have heard of before called 'Wood Doctor'.



True
Arthur did own Wood Doctor. Wood Doctor was a highly successful company that was in business for a period of 15 years or so. Wood Doctor was the first outdoor furnace company to take gasification seriously and sold hundreds of units starting as early as 2000 with a lot of success. Of course there were issues and these were addressed just like you indicate elsewhere online that Heatmaster is addressing issues with their new G-Series as they arise...




hondaracer2oo4 said:


> He folded the company up when the boilers started to fail and wouldn't honor any warranties.



False
While there were warranty issues of course, like you would expect with thousands of units in the field, the main reason the company failed is when Wood Doctor made a very ambitious attempt to get their own manufacturing plant going. This venture failed completely and dragged the entire company down with it.




hondaracer2oo4 said:


> Just Google his name and you will get all kinds of stuff



True
You will find information about warranty issues and the Wood Doctor crash. I think the important thing to realize is that those unresolved warranty issues your read about arose after Wood Doctor failed. Throughout its existence Wood Doctor had a very strong warranty and while certainly not perfect Wood Doctor stood behind it better than anybody else in the field at the time. It is unfortunate the company over extended itself and crashed but to imply the company closed shop to avoid warranty issues is completely misleading and false.




hondaracer2oo4 said:


> On an interesting side note, the new Portage and Main boiler looks identical to the Polar furnace. Check it out on each companies websites. Very strange.



False
You must never have looked at both these products closely because there is literally no comparison between any of their respective products. Everything is different about their gassers as well. Different housing, different door layouts, different brick assembly, different primary air delivery, different secondary air delivery, different controls, different fan motor, different heat exchanger, different everything. They are the same in the overall layout yes of course, but they are no more similar in the details to each other than they are to your heatmaster. In fact your heatmaster unit is closer in overall layout to the Polar gasser than the new P&M gasser. Finally, my understanding is that the Polar G-Class has been on sale for longer than your Heatmaster G-Series. The new P&M gasser was only released within the last year. 


Some other thoughts
Regarding P&M. They seem to have their issues but you have to respect the success they have had. They gave the outdoor furnace industry the dry bottom, brick lined unit. This product became a bridge between the conventional units and the gassers in the last couple years. With this product they single handedly established a distinct product category with their brick lined shaker grate model and built a strong market presence riding this new product category. This type of innovation is unmatched in the entire history of the outdoor furnace industry in my opinion. Riding this single innovation P&M has been the single fastest growing outdoor furnace company by unit sales in recent years. I have a lot of respect for that because I know what it takes to pull something like that off. 

Anyway, I really don't understand what is driving your post honda but I have my thoughts what it might be. I've been involved in the outdoor furnace industry for many years and have watched it slowly start to grow up. Some of the units in the current crop of gasifiers truly are world class easily standing shoulder to shoulder with the best European technology but at a much lower cost. Business ethics in some of the leading companies today is pretty much world class as well. We all know the outdoor furnace industry has been it's very own mini wild west, but I happen to believe Wood Doctor was the first truly visionary and innovative company in the outdoor furnace industry and really did take the first steps in pulling the industry to the next level. Don't get me wrong, they were not perfect but they did many things better than the pack back then. It's unfortunate the company failed when it did because I think Wood Doctor would have continued to pull the entire industry forward at an accelerated rate and certainly the entire industry would have been better off without the WD failure. There is not much we can do about the past beyond learning from it and today a number of companies are doing that and trying to take the outdoor furnace industry to the next level. One of these companies in my opinion is Polar Furnace. I also think Heatmaster is doing the same thing but I have to wonder who is giving you this junk info and for what purpose... In my opinion it's not a smart way to try to win because it makes everybody look bad.

Once again, I do think you have one of the better outdoor gasser available and I wish you the best and happy gassing.


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## maple1 (Sep 13, 2016)

A friend of mine had a Wood Doctor. It was a piece of leaky garbage after its third year.


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## hondaracer2oo4 (Sep 14, 2016)

I have gotten some of this convoluted story wrong. I have found a letter supposedly written by turple. I will copy and paste it below, it is quite the read. I would also like to get the "rest of the story" from the other players involved in this ridiculousness. Since you are from Canada it sounds like you too are somehow wrapped up with one of these companies. 



*What Really Happened at Wood Doctor by the President - Arthur Turple*
« *on:* February 02, 2012, 04:11:36 PM »




*Quote*
What really happened at Wood Doctor – by President - Arthur Turple

PLEASE NOTE ----WOOD DOCTOR WILL BE BACK MAY 2012.  WARRANTY WILL BE RESUMED.  UNDELIVERED WILL BE RESUMED.

www.wooddoctorfurnace.com

I am the president of Wood Doctor and I have been doing Wood Doctor for the past 16 years.  For the last 9 of these years our furnaces have been built by the Silverwinds Hutterite Colony, PO Box 159, Spirling, Manitoba, R0G 2M0 that manufacture under the name of Silverwinds Metals.  This is NOT a limited liability corporation.  Our relationship is over and they are now building their own competing furnace called Polar Furnace.  Polar Furnace Mfg. Inc. is a limited liability company.  They did a Hostile takeover of part of our distribution.

I had done well in the furnace business for many years. 

A few years ago I also started a Nova Scotia wireless high speed internet company called Netbundle Inc.  My company Outside Heating Systems Ltd. (Wood Doctor) had loaned money and cosigned the loans for this internet company.  I personally co signed some of them.
The province of Nova Scotia announced that they were going to provide high speed internet to the whole province.
They put a tendering process in place.  The province was divided into different bid areas.  I put in a bid for the areas that I knew I could do profitably and were connected to my area and included my area.  I had the lowest bid and have had the fastest wireless network in the province.  However, I was not politically connected in any way. 
The NS Premier’s brother was in charge of determining who got the bid. 
In a meeting with all parties that had completed a bid, he made the statement:
“The way we are determining the winner is - each application will get so many points for each category.  They will get so many points for the best bid.  They would get so many points for each thing on this list. But in the final category we have not yet determined how many points will be allotted.  If I can find anything that I do not like in the application and I MEAN ANYTHING, - I will make it bigger than the rest and you are out.” 
I later received a letter simply telling us that we were out.

Who handled the finances for the premier during his election. 

The Province split 68 Million between 2 companies.  Neither company was involved in wireless internet before the bidding process.  Neither company completed the process in the allotted time.  Neither company received a fine or penalty.  As a matter of fact one of the companies was later given an extra 10 Million to help them finish.  This was the same company (Seaside) that received my area and came in and put equipment beside my towers and disrupted our service.  We eventually had to close.
I lost close to 1.5 Million, some of which remained as loans now owed by Wood Doctor and I.  One of them is BDC.  On one day, in 2 separate loan agreements,  I borrowed $250,000 from BDC and $100,000 remains unpaid.  The other $150,000 plus interest has been repaid.

At the same time EPA were trying to enlarge their empire.  State after State adopted laws allowing EPA furnaces only.
EPA furnaces cost much more to build and therefore are much more expensive.  When most states went green, they made no allowances for outdoor commercial and industrial furnaces and they were simply banned as EPA will only certify furnaces up to 350,000 BTU.  Many good states are no longer profitable for dealers.

A few years back I purchased my partners shares in Outside Heating Systems Ltd.
He stayed on to work with me and received an override on every furnace sold in our network.  I paid him over $500,000 in 2008.  Oil was high and the economy was still good.
When the Hutterite Colony, Silverwinds Metals recruited my ex partner Dave McCulloch, I knew that they were planning to take a run at me to take over distribution.  It only took them a few months.

That led to me going to Virginia and meeting Rick Fulcher.

We were scrambling to try to get other manufacturing going.
First we had looked at operating our own factory and were offered help locally in VA.  We could have received a 132,000 sq ft factory all set up with equipment.   We later turned down the offer for the factory as the financing to run the factory and build up inventory was not in place.
We hired a CFO for a new VA company, called Creative Energy Solutions LLC.  The new CFO, Wayne Barry lost no time diverting funds to his own accounts and then ran when we discovered the fraud.  The arrest warrant is still in place.

That set us back, but we had a great new marketing plan.  We decided that there are many good existing companies with unemployed men.  Let’s give them the work.
Now we had to get new CAD plans made so that fabrication companies could bid on furnace production.  The company selected and awarded the contract to make the CAD plans was a total disappointment.  They were Trimech.  They took months to complete the first CAD plan.  They had received the contract because they had promised to put a man on it right away and would not charge overtime for weekends.  We kept paying the incoming bills but we were well into the fall before they had the first CAD plan done.  This took us by surprise.
By this time it was too late in the season for this year.  We could not get any furnaces completed without CAD plans.

This summer we also received another hit.  Without any warning, this summer our most popular EPA furnace, the HE8000 was discontinued by the Hutterite Colony operating as Silverwinds Metals, after we had many sold. 
This had been a stock item for the last three years and therefore we were not expecting this and had already spent the profit from these sales in covering operating expenses while waiting for the furnaces to be built.  We could not talk Silverwinds Metals into even making enough for these orders.
We were in trouble.  We went to two factories to get an EPA furnace made.  We did not yet have CAD plans and we were running out of time. 

We were spending so much of our energy putting fires out.   The Hutterite were now making their own competing furnace, called Polar.  Wood Doctor is now a company that Silverwinds wanted to be in their past.  Silverwinds Metals could increase their profit if they also distributed the furnace.

Since our troubles which included Silverwinds trying their best to put us out of business, Silverwinds Metals has made it plain that if Outside Heating Systems Ltd. failed that they would not pay warranty.  They had promised 5 years of 100% of all repairs warranty to Outside Heating Systems Ltd and Wood Doctor.  A copy of this warranty is at www.wooddoctor.com.  Neil Hoofer, at Silverwinds, has been telling our customers that they are not Silverwind Metals customers and Silverwinds Metals is not obligated to pay claims. 
The reality is that Silverwinds Hutterite Colony built the stoves and wrote out a 5 year 100% repair warranty.  They are obligated. 

At this time the Hutterite already knew a few of our better dealers.   Plus, hey had already recruited Dave McCulloch that had worked closely with me for 14 years, and a Canadian distributor. 

We were surprised when we sent a tractor trailer to the factory and they did not have inventory for us and would not sell us any of their new brand.  The trucker said there were lots of furnaces stockpiled.
Silverwinds Metals said the factory was jammed with furnaces waiting for parts, but the colony minister Zack Hoofer Sr. said that if we could wait, that they would eventually build our furnaces for us.
We waited and waited.

Just as the furnaces were finally made, and we had just got the first load out and were arranging shipping our bank account was hit with a number of credit card refunds.  They all came at once.  This took out not only the money we would have sent to the Hutterite Colony, but also the profit on all these furnaces that we had already spent in expenses.  Our account was wiped out.  Once it started, it happened quickly.
We were essentially out of business.
We slashed expenses at all locations and eventually only one part time employee remained.

I had also let my own personal bills fall behind and used up my own personal resources, while we were trying to save Wood Doctor.

There are some really great people caught up in this.  There are loyal dealers, friends, customers, creditors and employees.  I am sorry.
I am 60 years old, and have been in business most of my life.  I was never involved in a business failing before.  There is no hand book for that.  Looking back I see how I could have protected things better and prevented this from happening with shorter leases and commitments and staying in my field of heating with another manufacturer.

I am sorry for the trouble and inconvenience that this has caused.  I should have communicated better, but I was in shock.
I will do my best to reimburse every one in the future.  Wood Doctor website will be back up May 2012.
Again, I am sorry.

I am also posting a copy of the warranty written by Silverwinds Metals (POLAR FURNACE) (contact below) to Outside Heating Systems Ltd. for the furnaces built these past 9 years.
I am also posting claim forms on our website for repair warranty during the first 5 years.
www.wooddoctorfurnace.com

The contract obligates the manufacturer (Silverwinds Hutterite Colony) to cover all repair costs for the first 5 years.
They stuck a phrase in their warranty that referrs to an obligation about solvency that will be included in a future contract.  There were no future contract ever written.  Therefore that phrase is invalid. *This was only added after I was very vocal after I had discovered that they had bought a cheaper load of boiler plate from somewhere else.*  At the same time they agreed to increase the time to 3 years, to replace furnaces at no cost within their 5 years.

Silverwinds is not obligated to participate in the replacement warranty offered after 5 years.   
WOOD DOCTOR WILL CONTINUE TO DO THEIR BEST TO TAKE CARE OF ALL PAST CUSTOMERS AFTER THE 5 YEAR SILVERWINDS WARRANTY.

*This following is part of a letter written to the Silverwinds Hutterite Colony by president of Wood Doctor January 4, 2012:*

Neil Hoofer openly did not correct stress corrosion leakage as requested around the chimney and door jamb extension, which caused leaks into firebox, then other leaks and corrosion to happen.  Neil said that the cost was too high to correct them and that the price of warranty was not expensive enough to correct. 
Neil's exact words to me were "If we were to spend $200.00 on every furnace we built in a year, and built 1,000 furnaces, that would be $200,000.  It is not worth it, as we would never spend that much on warranty."  That attitude made my job hopeless. 

I never found out until a few months ago, when we took a torch to one of our original furnaces WD8000 which you call SW25 that THERE WAS NO SUPPORT FOR THE FIREBOX. 
THE SUPPORT FOR THE WEIGHT OF THE FIREBOX DID NOT EXIST. 

ALL WEIGHT FOR THE FIREBOX AND WOOD WAS HANGING BY A WELD AROUND THE CHIMNEY AND DOOR JAMB EXTENSION. 

WHY WAS NO SUPPORT PUT IN UNDER THE FIREBOX?

I could hardly believe my eyes, as a long time ago Neil Hoofer had told me that the metal around the chimneys was corroded by stress corrosion.  I always assumed that it was because of heat and low water, as I was never given complete CAD drawings to examine.

It now appears that the failures may have been deliberate.
Neil Hoofer used to say in meetings "Why do we need Arthur?  Why not do our own distribution?"
Neil Hoofer also used to say “*The warranty to Wood Doctor is in our Colony’s name, we need it in a limited company*.”  I used to wonder, “Why?  Are we not planning to fix up the customers?”

As failures kept happening over and over, I no longer felt comfortable selling furnaces that I knew may fail.  My only hope was that maybe Neil Hoofer would finally get the promised changes done; and look at the disappointment and grief, that Silverwinds Metals are causing families and have compassion and fix and replace the defective furnaces. 

When Neil Hoofer asked me, in person, 2 years ago "If Wood Doctor went out of business because of warranty, would Wood Doctor take Silverwinds down with them?"
I had responded "How could it be possible that warranties could take Wood Doctor down, because the warranty comes from you?"

For the last few years I have been thinking, "If I left Wood Doctor would the customers lose their warranty, because the warranty was written to Outside Heating Systems Ltd.?"  I felt trapped.  I no longer wanted to sell their furnaces.  I no longer had confidence that we were helping people by supplying them with a furnace from Silverwinds Hutterite Colony (Polar Furnace)

We are still having problems in only 3 or 4 or 5 years.  It is unnecessary.  Then if a furnace makes it past 5 years, it is now Arthur's problem.  These furnaces did not have to fail in 10 or 20 years. 
Neil Hoofer's penny pinching has caused untold harm to our customers, dealers, and Wood Doctor.
The correction to the bushing around the pull rod took numerous requests and a number of years before happening. 
I have been saying "What is happening, as we have to improve the furnaces?  When will this be done?" 
 How many times have I heard that the 3/8 inch steel would be put in the door jamb extensions? 
It never happened.  Neil never got it done.

*The above is part of a letter I had written to the Silverwinds Hutterite Colony. *

However I also want to say:
The Hutterite are very mostly good intelligent people. 
Most Hutterite are mostly honorable people.  I have a high respect for many of them.  Many have been friends. 
I have no animosity toward Hutterite people. 

I have no bitterness towards Neil, only disappointment.  I could never understand Neil.  The more that I diid with Silverwinds, the more he opposed me.  I just realized why Neil has been acting this way.
*Neil Hoofer suffers from Narcissism.*   Neil is a text book case.  The son of the minister.  Raised in a place of honor.  He would be regarded as handsome. very well spoken, on and on.  Neil is basically running the factory today.  What a recipe for future disaster.

At this time, Neil Hoofer has been telling Wood Doctor customers that the Hutterite Colony, Silverwinds Metals is not going to cover their warranty, It is my responsibility.   They are my customers.  The warranty is written by the Silverwinds Hutterite Colony.  That makes purchasers Silverwinds Metals customers for the first 5 years.  A copy of the warranty is at www.wooddoctorfurnace.com

*The Silverwinds Colony has been listening to Neil Hoofer and Dave, and HAVE COME INTO AGREEMENT WITH THEM* to put money ahead of their word and obligations.
They have been refusing to pay warranty claims to customers during their five year manufacturing warranty contract obligation.
I have this in writing from a number of people.
Neil Hoofer, if you had simply done the right thing and honored your warranty instead of spending all your energy spreading rumors about me, I never would have made this  public.  You have left me with no choice.

Any Wood Doctor warranty claims during the first 5 years can be done direct to the factory where they were made:

Polar Furnaces Mfg. Inc. or Silverwinds Metals Colony
PO Box 159, Sperling, Manatoba, R0G 2M0,  Canada
phone:204-626-3485. 
fax: 204-626-3326
contact zacksr@silverwindsmetals.com  or zacksr@polarfurnace.com
I have no desire to embarrass the Colony or cause trouble. 

Outside Heating Systems Ltd. has closed.  However we are not changing our name or avoiding our promises or obligations.
All unfilled orders will be filled soon. *WOOD DOCTOR WILL CONTINUE.*

*Warranty claims after 5 years on our prorated replacement warranty can be made at*:

Wood Doctor
397 Prince St., Truro, Nova Scotia  B2N 1E6 Canada
We will continue to honor our warranty the best we can. 

May. 4, 2012 --- *UPDATE ON WARRANTY PROGRESS*:
Rino Francoeur
Edmonston, NB  Canada
Rino Francoeur <rino5@me.com>
*There was a omplete furnace corrosion failure of a Silverwinds furnace in under 3 years.*
*Emailed more Pictures Dec 14, 2011*
*As of April 24, 2012 - Mr Rino Francoeur still has not received his new furnace. * 

*Silverwinds Metals now calling themselves Polar Furnaces has left Mr. Francoer without his replacement furnace all winter.*
This furnace was designed and Pattoned by Neil Hoofer of Silverwinds Metals and failed from corrosion under 3 years old.
WHY  has this customer not been fixed up?
I approved the replacement over 4 months ago and emailed pictures.
Neil talked to customer and told him that a replacement furnace would be coming.  Where is it?
How can I stay involved when you obviously will not continue to honor claims.
I will notify all customers to deal with you directly as you will obviously no longer fix them up when I am involved in any way.
Arthur Turple, pres.
Wood Doctor
cell 207-745-0854
Home 902-893-3336
www.wooddoctorfurnace.com

PS We now have good news.
From spring 2011 to spring 2012, I went through the roughest year of my life.  Silverwinds stopped supplying HE8000 after we had sold a number, and then later stopped supplying all furnaces for awhile, but always told us that they would eventually build them.  At the end we managed to get one tractor trailer load of furnaces out before the credit card companies recalled all credit card payments.  The whole company crashed.

There are still a few people that have not received their furnace when our company closed.
These orders will be taken care of.  They will soon receive a furnace.  It will be a better one.

I was approached by a few manufacturers that heard what had happened and wanted to help.  This was appreciated, but I was not mentally able to step back into the fray at the time.  I am ready now!

Some of the things said on the internet were true. 
We were way behind in deliveries all summer, mostly because they were not available.
When we crashed there were some undelivered furnaces.  They will be delivered soon.

There is one person in particular who has been spreading lies about me, my family, my partners, and the company   He shows a picture or takes a fact and adds a lie to it to make the lie appear like the truth.  He goes by the handle of Hawken.   
I have even watched him do this before. 
*Hawken real name is John H-r-y. *
John is from Nova Scotia.   
John worked with me a few years back and was put into a trusted position and later dismissed.
John hides under a few different handles. 

Even the Hawkin picture is also a fake. 
John H-r-y also suffers from Narcissism.  John is older (early 50's) and much more advanced into the ultimate failure of a life of Narcissism.


*THERE IS AN ANSWER TO THE STEADY FAILURE OF FURNACES IN OUR INDUSTRY.
The answer will be on our website by May 1, 2012*.
Arthur Turple, pres.
Wood Doctor
www.wooddoctorfurnace.com


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## 2Bits (Sep 14, 2016)

Honda, Like I said... I wild west with quite the characters involved for sure. This is obviously a very rattled person experiencing a lot of business challenges and "convoluted ridiculousness" is a pretty good way to describe it. But why you chose to post that stuff in response to the general historical observations I was making about WD's overall impact on the OWB industry I honestly don't understand. I would rather have expected a more thought out and relevant response to the general points about WD I was making. The main point being that WD did move the industry forward from the old days during the 15 or so years it was in business. Yes we know the company crashed after 15 years. Yes it was messy but what was WD's overall impact on the OWB industry during the years the company was experiencing a lot of success.

Not everything is binary in life my good friend and I would suggest not holding your breath on ever determining and understanding the whole story. I don't think anybody has the full story and your certainly not going to find or determine the detailed truth on any online forum. I have personally spent a lot of time thinking about what transpired with Wood Doctor as well as other brands like Pacific Western, Global Hydronics, etc. My general observation and opinions about how Wood Doctor helped evolve the outdoor furnace industry forward from those early Convey-All / Pacific Western days I will continue to hold while recognizing I don't know all the details and never will.

However, the few facts I shared in responding to the misinformation you posted in your earlier post remain and are easily verifiable by anybody. I really don't have anything further useful to say on the WD topic.

Overall I am bullish on the outdoor furnace industry as it exists today. I think its come a very long way over the last several years. I've personally invested in the industry and will continue to invest in it and am glad to see you have as well in purchasing your OWB gasser. I think the outdoor furnace industry has a unique solution that can grow tremendously not just in North America but in many parts of the world. I really think that OWBs are a distinct product category that is not properly represented in the residential heating industry globally, but I think that this will change significantly over the next several years. So I am in regardless of what happened in the past. I always look to the future while learning what I can from the past.


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## hondaracer2oo4 (Sep 14, 2016)

So are you saying that the cover on the portage and main is the same or different than the cover on the polar?  Because looking at the two pictures side by side they are near identical. Right down to the hole that polar uses for a handle to shake down the turbulators and the portage and main did not include this handle but the hole is still there.


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## maple1 (Sep 14, 2016)

Wow - that was quite a read.

I have never heard of Netbundle - and I am posting this via my Seaside ISP. None of which I don't think has anything to do with OWBs, so not sure why he went in that direction. Almost seems like diversionary writing. I'll stop there on that stuff.

I am also not seeing how Wood Doctor advanced anything. They have a very bad rep around here, at least with anyone I have talked to who has had one or knows someone who did. IMO they negatively impacted.


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## hondaracer2oo4 (Sep 15, 2016)

Yes interesting reading for sure. I wonder how 2bits knows about some of the inner workings of all this. Wood Doctor might have been one of the first to try an owb gasser in North America, I'm not sure. Many many wood doctors failed and rusted out in short order. Turple looks to blame that on the company( now polar if I read his story right) that was building his boilers third party.


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## 2Bits (Sep 15, 2016)

Honda, 

the comments and observations I am giving are very general and certainly not commenting on "inner workings" of what went on. I'm am just not in on what happened at WD. But I have been around the industry a while and have a general sense of how things developed. That's what I am sharing. It's just my view. Not gospel, just my opinions and general observations but it is based on a lot of info I have collected over the years about the industry. That's all I have to give you.

Regarding your P&M Polar comparision questions;
When you say "cover" I'm think you mean housing? Yes the housing is completely different to my eyes. I browsed over to the websites to look at the cutaway to make an honest effort at trying to understand what you are seeing. I have to agree with you, in the cutaway the housing does look similar in a general sense. I have looked at them in real life however and they are completely different in the details. The P&M gasser housing has chamfered corners which are not visible on the cutaway, It has a different latch, different front end finishing, P&M has one access panel in the back for example polar has two, etc,etc. Could the new P&M gasser housing have been influenced by the Polar gasser housing design? For sure that's possible and likely since the Polar units have been on the market for several years and I think made a statement with their non traditional look. But suggesting they are the same is nonsense. Honda you really do need to get away from your computer screen and look at these units in real life instead of studying cutaways on websites and relying on random, vague, unqualified posts mostly from strangers on online forums for info.

Also, you indicated noticing some holes that are similar between the units? It's not clear what holes your referring to but sounds like you are talking about the hole the cleaning system activating rod goes through? yes they both have a hole for this. Is this your point that they have holes for the cleaning rod? honda this is silly, you do realize your heatmaster also has a "hole" for a cleaning system action rod to activate a similar swivaling exchanger cleaning system?

One last little piece of info that you may find interesting. My info (I must admit I am not 100% certain on this, I tried verifying this morning just for you but was not entirely successful) is that Polar had this type of cleaning system first in the OWB industry. The following year Heatmaster had it. A few years later it shows up on the new P&M gasser also. Why? Because it's a great idea. Great ideas get copied. If you look at the three systems it's definitely the same idea but clearly had different designers. By the way, this type of swiveling heat exchanger cleaning system with a rod (and hole) has been used on indoor gassers for years and years. It's a great design and it's great the different OWB designers are incorporating it in their outdoor gassers. It works!

My last thoughts on what this thread has become: If you truly are a fan of the OWB industry including heatmaster I would suggest deleting the junk you posted above including the Polar misinformation and the WD stuff. There's a lot of crap people can spread around from the old days. Like I said the old days were pretty ugly but I really think Wood Doctor helped get the industry (including Heatmaster) on its way for the reason I have given earlier. For that reason I have respect for WD. Yes I know there are lot of reasons to sling mud at the name but I happen to think this one general service it did for the industry trumps all and even you as a consumer are benefiting from it today. Finally, I don't know this but I strongly suspect if you did a little asking and got honest reflective answers you would find Wood Doctor getting fedup with the Pacific Western days and moving its manufacturing away from ConveyAll planted the early seeds for the creation of Heatmaster in an employee of ConveyAlls mind.

Y'know honda, I've been poking around on different forums the last few days and I'm picking up a bit of a pattern of what seems to be Heatmaster dealers and product owners taking every opportunity to sling muck at other OWB companies. Some come across as just a bit overzealous in spreading negative info and news and misinformation about their competition, somehow this seems somewhat ingrained in the Heatmaster online culture and I'm curious as to where exactly its coming from. Nobody else in the OWB industry is doing this. It's very amateurish and trust me it looks bad to potential consumers. It looks really bad to people like myself who happen to know the Heatmaster "heritage" is not exactly the poster child you seem to think it is. What Heatmaster seems to be today and you are experiencing looks and feels a lot better and I really like what I am seeing. My point is that it's better to just let some sleeping dogs lie. Those are my last words on this topic on this thread. cya


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## maple1 (Sep 15, 2016)

Trying to stick more to the topic, but on something recently mentioned above.

And re. the rod-related tube cleaning system.

Whether it's Polar, or someone else - I would want to make sure that that whole mechanism is easy to get at & easy to remove. It is one thing to have such a system on an indoor boiler, tied to storage - that burns the whole load of fuel until the fuel runs out, so it's only fly ash that accumulates in the tubes. But having it in a boiler that doesn't do that, and spends some of its time idling (which all OWBs do, even gasifying ones - as far as I know), could be problematic in dealing with creosote deposits that would accumulate during idle times. And I would be leery about claims of little to no maintenance aside from periodically moving the handle back & forth.


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## hondaracer2oo4 (Sep 15, 2016)

The reason why I say good things about heatmaster when I get a chance is because they are a company in the owb industry that is actually standing behind their products and putting out quality. That can not be said for many in the owb industry. A lot of people buy owb and a lot of people are turned sour because or poor quality and poor warranties. 

As far as the fly ash shaker in the exchanger tubes I think it's also a good idea but like maple said in a gasser with no storage you are going to get creosote. This was one of my few complaints with my heatmaster which I also passed along to my dealer to pass up the chain. They used to have a door on the top for easy access to the mechanism so you could remove it and manually clean the tubes. Now you have to remove the roof instead. I will see what my stack temps are this year but I may be pulling my roof to manually clean mine.


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## wardk (Nov 2, 2016)

I am so glad I got a garn.


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## S.Whiplash (Nov 3, 2016)

Can't really say the OWB industry came up with any revolutions in wood burning when they ignored all innovation that occurred in the previous 40 years (mostly in Europe) and fostered a customer base on inefficiency and wasteful burning practices that the EPA is just now cracking down on.  Why it took 25 years to examine the evidence is beyond me.


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## leon (Nov 3, 2016)

S.Whiplash said:


> Can't really say the OWB industry came up with any revolutions in wood burning when they ignored all innovation that occurred in the previous 40 years (mostly in Europe) and fostered a customer base on inefficiency and wasteful burning practices that the EPA is just now cracking down on.  Why it took 25 years to examine the evidence is beyond me.


=====================================================================================================


The reason is that the EPA had more issues to deal with than 
the wood burners and until enough people that were sickened by 
wood smoke and or have asthma which is aggravated by wood 
burning to cause them to take notice.

Its hilarious when you hear the Europeans talk about Central Boiler 
attempting to sell their boilers at trade shows and  the people in the 
business there cannot understand how a product like that can be sold 
legally with so much wood smoke.

When I filled my boilers fire box volume half full of fire brick up to the 
flue breech to make the fire hotter all time it was was the best thing 
I ever did as I could not afford anything else.


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## brenndatomu (Nov 5, 2016)

2Bits said:


> I have been around the industry a while


In what capacity? You work for Polar...if not who? Sure seems like you are in the industry...if so, why not own it? 
Industry insiders are always welcome, but it is nice to know who your allegiances lie with...


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## mlappin (Oct 3, 2017)

Old thread, but Wood Doctor was contracting the fab and welding out to other companies much like Nature Comfort has local welding shops to do their fab. Anyways, the units that were farmed out to Polar had very few issues compared to other units built by other contractors.


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