# Expert Ratings of Gasifiers



## Pologuy9906 (Aug 23, 2013)

Ok I've directed 4 other friends and family to this site. Gasifiers are unknown to the masses due to the fear, myths, and lack of ratings needed for someone without the technical where with all to make a sound choice. With all the great experts on the site, I think everyone should rate the following 10 units and rate them from favorite (1) to worst(10). Hopefully everyone will participate. The not so technical people need to look at the experts for a quick glance at what they are rating as good vs bad and making informed decisions from there. People also need to know who can assist with the install. Safety features and warranties are other areas of concern. Most items costing 5000+ are well known and a plethora of information and rating are typically available. 

Hopefully everyone looks at this as an opportunity to inform the masses and possibly make gasser more popular! I look forward to all your ratings.

1. Vigas -7075
2. Vedolux lambda - 10,500
3. Vedolux - 6500
4. Effecta - 6500
5. Attack DPX - 4600
6. Tarm innova - 7000(?)
7. Biomass - 6000
8. Eko - 5500
9. Woodgun
10. Econoburn - 6500-7500


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## leon (Aug 23, 2013)

Pologuy9906 said:


> Ok I've directed 4 other friends and family to this site. Gasifiers are unknown to the masses due to the fear, myths, and lack of ratings needed for someone without the technical where with all to make a sound choice. With all the great experts on the site, I think everyone should rate the following 10 units and rate them from favorite (1) to worst(10). Hopefully everyone will participate. The not so technical people need to look at the experts for a quick glance at what they are rating as good vs bad and making informed decisions from there. People also need to know who can assist with the install. Safety features and warranties are other areas of concern. Most items costing 5000+ are well known and a plethora of information and rating are typically available.
> 
> Hopefully everyone looks at this as an opportunity to inform the masses and possibly make gasser more popular! I look forward to all your ratings.
> 
> ...


 


I have nothing to add to the list other than the need for Kiln Dried firewood
to feed them simply to make the wood dry and combustable with no issues
with regard to efficiency wherein the kiln dried hardwood eliminates any guess work


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## ewdudley (Aug 23, 2013)

You missed Fröling.  Myself I wouldn't want a lambda unit, nor would I pay so much, but every detail of the design shows the result of many years of refinement.

Best boiler for the money is Vedolux.  Great design, tall firebox, very easy to keep clean.  Only drawback is the low pressure rating, I don't understand why it is less than the standard 30 psisg.

Don't think you could go wrong with any of them, except possibly Woodgun, especially the SS units, Fred makes a pretty good case for being skeptical.


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## Fred61 (Aug 24, 2013)

I don't see how someone can evaluate gassers without operating one. Even seasoned experts that have operated one for several years let alone just reading about one. Sure, they can doubt outrageous claims but that's about it. As I said in the past, nearly everyone loves their particular boiler but their only comparison is that they burned oil last year and are more comfortable this year. I once pointed out the guy I knew that absolutely loved the bi-fold door Franklin stove he had installed to keep warm in his drafty old shack and recommended it to anybody.

I've only operated two gassers and have been very happy with one of them, (so far) but if you want a seat of the pants recommendation only from reading about the units the Vedolux uses a design that I find favorable not that I'm unhappy with my EKO.

I think lamda units have their place but in my case, where I burn one hot fire per day and I am around to monitor it for the three or four hour duration, I don't believe I need the added hardware.


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## Tennman (Aug 24, 2013)

And Garn.... I'd limit the list to manufacturers. Generally if the company makes good products it's reflected in their whole line. I see at least one of those that could drop from a top 10 leaving a spot for the Froling and Garn. When topics like this have come up before, I personally see 3 tiers; High end class (Froling, Garn comes to mind... think Mercedes class), Mid level American and European products, and "Value" level Eastern Europe produced units. Just like purchasing a car, they'll all get you there, but some cars offer more class and efficiency. You could sort your list by price and be pretty close to my imaginary tiers. But I personally think your list is pretty good based on the fact that, for the most part.... all the owners of your product list that post here have been satisfied with their choice. Based on user comments here, it seems like almost a coin toss regarding customer satisfaction within those tiers with some here being fiercely brand loyal. Me? I picked an affordable "starter" boiler that has been great and the perfect choice for ME. Hard for me to be fiercely loyal when I've only owned one boiler in my life. Just my five years of observations/impressions of happy and pissed off posters. Others been here far longer and will add opinions, but lots of satisfied users in your list. Just at least make it a top 11 and add Froling and Garn.

EW... how'd you get the little dots over the o? Next time I post something about Froling that would definitely add to my credibility. 

OH.... about a year ago someone posted a link to a WAY COOL German boiler that was coming to the U.S. The video was in German but OMG.... I had boiler lust for a week. Anyone remember that? ....  I see leaves dropping here in Tennessee...... times a coming.


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## stee6043 (Aug 24, 2013)

Shopping for boilers isn't like shopping for televisions, sadly.  The offerings are so variable and constantly changing.  Your personal needs and goals are just as important as the popularity of the boiler assuming you pick one of decent quality.  As stated above a truly objective rating could only come from someone that has operated every unit.  You won't find that here on hearth.com.

I've said it a bunch of times before - I don't know that there is a better, simpler, more robust boiler than the Garn based on my personal experiences and readings.  But I just flat didn't have room for one.  I'd recommend my EKO to anyone looking for a simple, robust, not-so-flashy boiler that doesn't require it's own man-cave.

My humble opinion is that budget should drive most of our decisions on these things.  Even the highest of high end boilers with full automation, complete feedback controls and a kitchen sink isn't going to get you "20% more efficiency" than the dirt floor gassers some of us are running.  Once you step into gassification the difference between "super high efficient" and "efficient" is going to be a wheelbarrow or two of wood per year difference for most of us.  But then again this is basically a hobby in many ways and I like having cool toys too.  So maybe having iPhone connectivity to my boiler would be awesome?  ha.  Good luck with your decision!


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## BoilerMan (Aug 24, 2013)

Some very good outlooks here.  Few, if any of us have any expierance with all the boilers mentioned.  Most are quite happy with their units.  An argument can be made that some have flawed design, but again people buy Fords, and people buy Chevys both are happy and buy more, most would never think of buying the other. 

Personally, I will not recommend any particular brand over another (unlike some on here) see out sigs and what we burn in.  If money were no object I'd own a Vedolux Lambda, 'cause I like Swedish stuff in general.  

There are only two brands that I know of (do your own research) on here that have had poor quality welding and the resulting seepage, this can, however, be from the "system" and not the boiler.  Oxygen in a closed loop system WILL destroy anything ferrous..............including the boiler.

TS


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## StihlHead (Aug 24, 2013)

Here in the Oregon we are limited to only EPA approved wood burning appliances now. So the list is limited. It is similar in New England and New York state. In WA state they are restricted to WA state standards (EPA III?) and only Greenwood passes there (as far as I know).

The EPA/state limits and the high price points will keep gassers very limited around here. My experience with boilers/gassers is with OWBs myself. Similar limitations apply to them now in the states listed, except in WA state where they are outright banned.


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## JP11 (Aug 24, 2013)

stee6043 said:


> My humble opinion is that budget should drive most of our decisions on these things.Good luck with your decision!


 
I would disagree.  I would say that WHO you buy from is more important that WHAT you buy.  You need it set up right, or no matter what super boiler you have.. if you can't get the heat into your existing system.. it's worthless.

If you have problems in a week, a year, or a decade.. WHO you bought it from is much more important than a few hundred bucks.  Very happy with my Vigas and Mark from AHONA.

JP


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## Fred61 (Aug 25, 2013)

ewdudley said:


> You missed Fröling. Myself I wouldn't want a lambda unit, nor would I pay so much, but every detail of the design shows the result of many years of refinement.
> 
> Best boiler for the money is Vedolux. Great design, tall firebox, very easy to keep clean. *Only drawback is the low pressure rating, I don't understand why it is less than the standard 30 psisg.*
> 
> Don't think you could go wrong with any of them, except possibly Woodgun, especially the SS units, Fred makes a pretty good case for being skeptical.


 Do you suppose they have the < 30psi rating because of the limitation of the tanks?  Are they square? Do they have stays?


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## stee6043 (Aug 25, 2013)

JP11 said:


> I would disagree. I would say that WHO you buy from is more important that WHAT you buy. You need it set up right, or no matter what super boiler you have.. if you can't get the heat into your existing system.. it's worthless.
> 
> If you have problems in a week, a year, or a decade.. WHO you bought it from is much more important than a few hundred bucks. Very happy with my Vigas and Mark from AHONA.
> 
> JP


 
I would respectfully disagree as well.  I can agree that dealer support can be necessary in some cases but in the case of a "bullet proof boiler" and a solid installation, whether DIY or professional, we should be able to limit our contact with the dealer network.  I've dealt with my dealer exactly two times - the day I ordered my boiler and the day I picked it up.  I personally wouldn't by a boiler I was less comfortable with because the dealer was 2 miles down the road vs the one I really want being 4  hours away.


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## ewdudley (Aug 25, 2013)

Fred61 said:


> Do you suppose they have the < 30psi rating because of the limitation of the tanks?  Are they square? Do they have stays?


The tank is basically a box in a box like all of them.  From looking under the covers and from the cutaway views you can see plenty of stays, but where the tubes curve up around to the front it looks like they may have needed to sacrifice pressure rating in order to incorporate the curved tube feature.  The units are obviously highly engineered so I suppose they decided designing for a higher pressure rating wouldn't be worth it.

The Vedolux 30 and 37 are rated for 22.75 psisg and tested for 31.2, which can work fine, but it does require more expense for expansion in a sealed system.  In the northern European market I think they use more elevated expansion cisterns so maybe it's just not a weighty consideration to them.

And to expand on the 'tall firebox' comment, I like the relatively short, narrow, and tall firebox that I think promotes the ability to run a smaller fire for a longer time, which helps minimize the need for storage because more heat is stored in the wood that hasn't burned yet.  I like the Fröling for the same reason.


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## __dan (Aug 25, 2013)

Pologuy9906 said:


> Gasifiers are unknown to the masses due to


 
Agreed but not for the reasons listed. The buying masses have a strong predisposition to follow the herd and copy, imitate, regardless of right or wrong.

It blows my mind every time I think about it, but I cannot understand how the entire population of the earth has been burning wood for the last 10,000 years, and the sum of this great wealth of knowledge and effort has them using appliances less than 25% efficient.

Even NASA rocket scientists will buy a home and compare themselves to the masses, how many fireplaces, one or two? Rarely or never used, but probably sitting there with the flue dampers open and drafting their heat to the outside 7/24. They invest heavily in fireplaces that go unused while they burn oil. And at resale, the fireplace will have a positive value added, while a gasifier could be a tough sell.

I will add that a masonry fireplace could be a tremendous heat bank and radiant emitter, Probably by using a factory built gasifiication combustion system and heat extraction from the flue gas to the surrounding masonry mass using "heat pipes". You should be able to bring the masonry up to radiant temp in four hours instead of three days required with conventional designs.

I'm thinking now, I would love to set a Froling in the living space in a wall or bank of masonry, put a glass door on the secondary chamber, and run a pex zone in with the stonework.

It really points to a lack of leadership in the market, the herd just wants to follow the herd. This is where gov subsidies and minimum requirements do work. Like with solar cells, uneconomical in many applications, but the subsidies goose the market to expand production volumes and take us from third generation to twelfth generation equipment. It's beyond comprehension, how we have been wood burning for 10,000 years and still be faced with third generation equipment on the market, with the bulk of the buyers still investing heavily in first generation fireplaces.

Done successfully, efficiently, there's a tremendous quantity of heat in wood. I am very comfortably in the three cord annual range and have easily in the range of four years of heat in piles in the yard.

Add in the European Passivhaus standard with rigid foam board fully enveloping the exterior of the foundation and you have the option of investing economically in perpetual "free heat".

I did this on my own with 2" rigid foam exterior to the foundation walls and under the basement slab. That alone may have cut the house heat loss by half. When I build again it will be 4" rigid foam, be contiguous including under the footings, and that will be all the storage I will ever need.

The options are there now for the buying public, and they are also free to keep running off the cliff following the clueless and lazy herd.


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## pbvermont (Aug 25, 2013)

Somewhere in that 10,000 years the masonry heater was invented.  Other names for it were Roman "hypocaust", Korean "kang"  both serpentine horizontal flues in the floor, and then there was the Russian or Siberian masonry heater, with a vertical serpentine flue in the chimney.  All of these were basically using early gassification principles.  The Europeans later used this technology and designed things like the Dutch and German "kakeloffen" or tile stove with serpentive flues to efficiently burn all flue gasses.
  I am constanly agast when I see the modern American house with a large masonry mass on the OUTSIDE and endwall, with 3/4 of the mass exposed to the outside.  Inside is a gaping fireplace, maybe a Rumford if you're lucky, and it might have glass doors.
  The masonry heater does not suit the modern lifestyle.  But then...neither does the fireplace.


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## heaterman (Aug 25, 2013)

Somebodies got to say it...........

All those on the list above are good boilers which if installed an piped correctly will provide many years of service life. All of them are at their best with storage added to the equation.
So if you add $3K for pumps, tanks, controls, piping and the labor of yourself or others you are basically at the price of a Garn Jr.

Thoughts?


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## heaterman (Aug 25, 2013)

JP11 said:


> I would disagree. I would say that WHO you buy from is more important that WHAT you buy. You need it set up right, or no matter what super boiler you have.. if you can't get the heat into your existing system.. it's worthless.
> 
> If you have problems in a week, a year, or a decade.. WHO you bought it from is much more important than a few hundred bucks. Very happy with my Vigas and Mark from AHONA.
> 
> JP


 

I'd agree but I would parse that just a little differently. In some cases the issue is who you buy it from, but in all cases it is how well the boiler is installed. Some times the two go together sometimes not.


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## ewdudley (Aug 25, 2013)

heaterman said:


> So if you add $3K for pumps, tanks, controls, piping and the labor of yourself or others you are basically at the price of a Garn Jr.
> 
> Thoughts?


Non-pressurized is a non-starter for me.


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## peakbagger (Aug 25, 2013)

In thread about a gasifier especially for the uninitiated, there  should always be this warning

No matter how high tech and well rated a gasifier is, if you don't plan to feed it dry wood (most likely dried undercover properly for two years), don't buy a gasifier as it will not work correctly. That's not related to brand or how much you spend, that's just physics. If you don't plan to follow this rule don't waste the money.


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## hobbyheater (Aug 25, 2013)

ewdudley said:


> Non-pressurized is a non-starter for me.


 
You are to me one of the more knowledgeable posts on this site and this question is meant as a compliment to you!  It would be interesting to know why  you see non-pressurized as a non starter?
The reason I ask is that I have run 1000 gallons storage with a open to atmosphere expansion tank. The boiler and storage sharing the same water;  the open expansion tank one floor above, with two heat exchanger inside the storage for DHW and water to the registers.
This system has operated for 30+ years without a problem.


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## ewdudley (Aug 25, 2013)

hobbyheater said:


> You are to me one of the more knowledgeable posts on this site and this question is meant as a compliment to you!  It would be interesting to know why  you see non-pressurized as a non starter?
> The reason I ask is that I have run 1000 gallons storage with a open to atmosphere expansion tank. The boiler and storage sharing the same water;  the open expansion tank one floor above, with two heat exchanger inside the storage for DHW and water to the registers.
> This system has operated for 30+ years without a problem.


Sorry, I should be more precise with my terminology.  I consider a system with an elevated open-to-atmosphere expansion cistern to be as likely to be trouble-free as a completely sealed system.  Indeed, if you could seal the manhole of a Garn off, and then run a 1 1/2" pipe up to an elevated expansion cistern in the rafters of a Garn barn I think you might have the best of both worlds.

And I'm not saying that Garns, OWBs, and other open systems are not viable, it's just that for me the pumps, heat exchangers, water treatment regimen are ongoing headaches I'd rather not deal with.  There are an awful lot of very happy Garn owners who would disagree.


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## hobbyheater (Aug 25, 2013)

ewdudley said:


> Sorry, I should be more precise with my terminology. I consider a system with an elevated open-to-atmosphere expansion cistern to be as likely to be trouble-free as a completely sealed system. Indeed, if you could seal the manhole of a Garn off, and then run a 1 1/2 pipe up to an elevated expansion cistern in the rafters of a Garn barn I think you might have the best of both worlds.
> 
> And I'm not saying that Garns, OWBs, and other open systems are not viable, it's just that for me the pumps, heat exchangers, water treatment regimen are ongoing headaches I'd rather not deal with. There are an awful lot of very happy Garn owners who would disagree.


 
Thank you!  Great explanation!


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## flyingcow (Aug 25, 2013)

pologuy........how's this thread working out?

heaterman has the best point....again.

BTW, this is a great BB for biomass and everyone involved.


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## JP11 (Aug 25, 2013)

heaterman said:


> I'd agree but I would parse that just a little differently. In some cases the issue is who you buy it from, but in all cases it is how well the boiler is installed. Some times the two go together sometimes not.


 
yes.. I guess if you had a STRONG installer (which seems rare, heaterman excluded of course.)  You would need much less help from the dealer.

My plumber knew very little of what I was trying to do.  I had everything from mark from electrical diagrams to pump and valve selections.  The end product is much more dependent on how it's installed than what's installed.  At least among similar setups.  IE lambda or non lambda gassifiers.


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## mikefrommaine (Aug 25, 2013)

All the installer needs to know how to do is join pipes, do a little wiring and READ A SCHEMATIC. There are plenty of well designed schematics available here and at many of the dealer/manufacturer websites. Tarm biomass has provided quite a few that would work in most situations.

I'd even bet that most owner manuals has a schematic or two.

These boilers arent exactly complicated. In fact most of them are probably overpriced for what they are -- a steel box or two, some cement, a fan or two and a controller. If you have storage and a properly sized pump the controllers functionality can be replaced by a timer and an aquastat. (don't forget the wire nuts)  Very happy with my 3m wire nuts and my dealer Rolly at  Rolando's Electrical Emporium.


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## heaterman (Aug 25, 2013)

ewdudley said:


> Non-pressurized is a non-starter for me.


 
Agreed that non-pressurized presents some issues that one needs to be aware of when piping. These are almost always solved by doing a little homework on pipe/tube size to keep system head low, which in and of itself is a good thing anyway in terms of reduced pumping costs.
The only other thing I can think of is maintaining water chemistry of an open or semi open system which should be monitored annually in any system open or sealed.


What am I forgetting?


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## Pologuy9906 (Aug 26, 2013)

So what units work best with pressurized systems? 

I'm definitely adding storage next year. As someone put it " hung ho"................no just very excited at the idea of coming off of oil

This site is hands down the best out there. Great knowledgable technicians. Thank you all.


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## __dan (Aug 26, 2013)

Responding to your PM,

Cordwood gasser is a good choice. I went from being a no wood burner to loving making a fire. Love making, having heat. .

Because of the hydronic baseboard loads, you will need storage, no question. With no storage, you would need the baseboards on continuous circ and roast out the house until the fuel is exhausted. Or, idling of the boiler, which will make a mess unless you have a boiler rated for idling. With storage, you will be able to make any of the boilers work. I would set the baseboard water temp with an outdoor reset controller.

As a contractor, better material is a labor saver and the labor is expensive, so higher quality, more expensive material, is a money saver because of the labor savings. Knowing this, it was natural for me to get the Froling when I could afford it. There is a learning curve and I wanted to pay the factory for their learning rather than fight with cheap quality poorly designed products. This is a general rule for me applying to everything. Note that even though I did the install myself, the labor is still more expensive compared to the material cost.

So for me if I was installing the boiler, I was only looking at Garn, Froling or Viessmann, which is not available in the US. There are others that will work, but my primary concern is years down the road, will I be happy or will I be spending money on replacement, repairs, or spending labor fighting with it

As you narrow down your choices, the forum and the guys will tell you if you are on the right track or not. good luck


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## jebatty (Aug 27, 2013)

> All the installer needs to know how to do is join pipes, do a little wiring and READ A SCHEMATIC. There are plenty of well designed schematics available here and at many of the dealer/manufacturer websites. Tarm biomass has provided quite a few that would work in most situations.


 
IMHO, not so fast. In the absurd, imagine a 200mbtu gasifer with 1/2" pex plumbing, 300' line from boiler to loads, and an off the shelf circulator of any kind, plumbed exactly like a schematic. My point simply is that hydronics is more than a schematic. Serious attention needs to be given not only to boiler btuh capacity, but the various loads, adequately sized plumbing to carry the required btu's, and a circulator(s) matched to the job. Pump head is a silent gorilla that many ignore with unsatisfactory results that may be blamed on the gasifier.

My first install followed a well-respected mfr's schematic to the T, but I used 3/4" steel pipe, lots of L's, and a 007 circ, all with a simple load of the storage tank that functioned as a radiator to heat my shop. I wondered why my gasifier was idling all the time. Does anyone else wonder? I hope the obvious is apparent.


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## Tennman (Aug 27, 2013)

And lots of attention to potentially the biggest efficiency killer.... the underground. Ask me how I know.


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## Chris Hoskin (Aug 28, 2013)

EW... how'd you get the little dots over the o? Next time I post something about Froling that would definitely add to my credibility. 

ö = hold down the Alt key and enter 0246


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## mikefrommaine (Aug 28, 2013)

jebatty said:


> IMHO, not so fast. In the absurd, imagine a 200mbtu gasifer with 1/2" pex plumbing, 300' line from boiler to loads, and an off the shelf circulator of any kind, plumbed exactly like a schematic. My point simply is that hydronics is more than a schematic. Serious attention needs to be given not only to boiler btuh capacity, but the various loads, adequately sized plumbing to carry the required btu's, and a circulator(s) matched to the job. Pump head is a silent gorilla that many ignore with unsatisfactory results that may be blamed on the gasifier.
> 
> My first install followed a well-respected mfr's schematic to the T, but I used 3/4" steel pipe, lots of L's, and a 007 circ, all with a simple load of the storage tank that functioned as a radiator to heat my shop. I wondered why my gasifier was idling all the time. Does anyone else wonder? I hope the obvious is apparent.


Ok so I'll add, the installer needs to be able to read a schematic and use a VS pump along with pipes bigger than what you'd use to plumb in an ice maker. 

My point was when adding a wood boiler next to an existing heating system it's not that complicated.  Use 1.25" or better yet 1.5" piping to make the connections, do a little figuring on the pump size ( vs pumps are even better) and make sure the expansion tank is big enough.


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## heaterman (Aug 28, 2013)

Chris Hoskin said:


> EW... how'd you get the little dots over the o? Next time I post something about Froling that would definitely add to my credibility.
> 
> ö = hold down the Alt key and enter 0246


 

http://www.alt-codes.net/  shows pretty much all of them  ( alt 1 ) = ☺


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## Tennman (Aug 29, 2013)

My wife and I love our BioMass, but the Fröling has a high customer satisfaction rating here. Fröling boilers have cool controls, Fröling speed regulated draught fans, Fröling Lambdatronic S controls, Fröling RGB control, Fröling is Austrian which is kinda like German. And I think the looks of Fröling boilers rock. Fröling's signature color is red just like Ferrari's.

Thanks for the tip EW and HM  I feel good. All jesting aside.... I really like Fröling. That red baby in my man cave would look good.


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## Gasifier (Sep 3, 2013)

The insulation factor of your house is critical to your comfort. The moisture content of your wood, and how you burn it, is critical to the efficiency of your heating system.

I am no expert on boilers, or any heating system for that matter, that is for sure. But I certainly would agree that how the entire system is installed is critical to any successful heating system. When I had my system installed I hired two guys who do heating systems full time, including extensive boiler experience. I still did my research before I hired them and then printed off the "Simplest pressurized storage design." by Nofossil. I also printed the "Theory of operation." from this sticky, and explained it to them and then asked them to read it and make sure they understood how I wanted the installation done. Thanks Nofossil. They did a great job and my system works beautifully. I used 1-1/2" pipe from boiler to tank and back, and throughout primary loop. I have insulated most of the primary loop. My secondary loops to the baseboard and the radiant in-floor in the garage are 3/4". From reading of others experiences, the proper sizing of piping and circulator pumps is very important.

I am heating a fairly well insulated house that is a little over 4000 sq.ft., a well insulated garage at about 900 sq.ft., and my domestic hot water in the most northern part of New York. Up on the Canadian border where the temperatures get and stay fairly cold. All of this with a boiler that is rated at 100,000 BTUs, but probably puts out more like 120,000. I have made a few modifications to the system for better stack temps and sealing the exhaust. I would like to eventually add another 800 gallons of storage to the system. But doubt I will be doing it anytime soon, if at all, because the system works fine the way it is. If I need to, can use my basement as a "storage" tank when it gets really cold outside and increase the temperature down there. Then turn the heat down in that zone at bed time and let the heat slowly rise to the upstairs of the house overnight while I am sleeping comfortably. Although that is only needed when the temps go below 0, which is not many days of the year.

If I was at the beginning of installation, and could afford it, I would install 3 or 4 times the 400 gallons of storage I have now. Because the most efficient way to burn wood is to burn it flat out and store the heat. And most efficient when your wood supply has been properly seasoned to bring it to the proper moisture content.

To anyone installing a system and whatever boiler you choose. I would say spend the extra money if you can and put plenty of storage in so you can burn one long fire a day, maybe through the evening hours each day and coast for the rest of the time while your stored heat keeps you cozy. And if you have the opportunity, get your house insulated as best you possibly can. If you don't, concentrate all your efforts on figuring out how you can better insulate your house ASAP. What ever wood burning appliance you choose, get your wood processing down to a science, get ahead by at least a year so your wood is properly seasoned.


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## skfire (Sep 4, 2013)

Tennman said:


> My wife and I love our BioMass, but the Fröling has a high customer satisfaction rating here. Fröling boilers have cool controls, Fröling speed regulated draught fans, Fröling Lambdatronic S controls, Fröling RGB control, Fröling is Austrian which is kinda like German. And I think the looks of Fröling boilers rock. Fröling's signature color is red just like Ferrari's.
> 
> Thanks for the tip EW and HM  I feel good. All jesting aside.... I really like Fröling. That red baby in my man cave would look good.




+1 on the Fröling, 3 years now into it. and very happy..
and yes my basement has become the man cave....
working on adding the tv by the fridge(yes full of brews). 
Red(Boiler), 
White(fridge) 
and Blue(Busch or Spaten Octoberfest when I am feeling high end)...

Scott


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## Tennman (Sep 5, 2013)

Yah... Sehr gut and gutes bier!... Scott. Now if only Fröling would offer a glass window for the upper chamber like one of the other European boilers (forgot who at the moment) that would seal the deal for me.   Cool... just noticed the new toolbox for faces in the Reply window!   Anyway... most guys around me upgrade their bass boats.... I'm eyeing wood boilers....  "jubel!"


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## Fred61 (Sep 5, 2013)

Tennman said:


> Yah... Sehr gut and gutes bier!... Scott. Now if only Fröling would offer a glass window for the upper chamber like one of the other European boilers (forgot who at the moment) that would seal the deal for me.   Cool... just noticed the new toolbox for faces in the Reply window!   Anyway... most guys around me upgrade their bass boats.... I'm eyeing wood boilers....  "jubel!"


Really, I don't have any tool bars in my reply window. How do I make them appear?


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## leon (Sep 5, 2013)

Gasifier said:


> The insulation factor of your house is critical to your comfort. The moisture content of your wood, and how you burn it, is critical to the efficiency of your heating system.
> 
> I am no expert on boilers, or any heating system for that matter, that is for sure. But I certainly would agree that how the entire system is installed is critical to any successful heating system. When I had my system installed I hired two guys who do heating systems full time, including extensive boiler experience. I still did my research before I hired them and then printed off the "Simplest pressurized storage design." by Nofossil. I also printed the "Theory of operation." from this sticky, and explained it to them and then asked them to read it and make sure they understood how I wanted the installation done. Thanks Nofossil. They did a great job and my system works beautifully. I used 1-1/2" pipe from boiler to tank and back, and throughout primary loop. I have insulated most of the primary loop. My secondary loops to the baseboard and the radiant in-floor in the garage are 3/4". From reading of others experiences, the proper sizing of piping and circulator pumps is very important.
> 
> ...


 



________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Its nice to know we think alike.

I filled my wood and coal boiler half full of firebrick and its been fantastic
when I start doing some serious wood burning. I have to add a chimney extension
to make the coal burn better as the chimey barely clears the peak of the house.

I have 35 gallons between the Buderus oil unit and the Switzer wood and coal boiler
and a very old house that was a one room school house that is hopeless to try to
insulate and heat very well and I wil run out of wood this year early.

If possible I will start on oct 1 with wood as I am way ahead on the oil budget,
but the tiny electric heaters warm the place up quickly too and that has been a big help.


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## Tennman (Sep 6, 2013)

Fred..... I have no idea... Absolutely no help to you... _It must be features of the new upgrade_ Yup.... right above the reply box there's a bunch of buttons for text, indexing, links, and...................   Jubel! (my new German word for cheers)


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## maple1 (Sep 7, 2013)

Gassifiers are unknown to the masses due to simple honest ignorance. I had no clue until I stumbled on this place a couple years ago.

It is impossible for this ratings thing to work unless everyone doing the ratings has experience with all the boilers on the list. Otherwise it just comes down to experience with the one boiler they own & their personal preferences.

I like mine, and on that note will point out one thing that has not been mentioned yet that could also be put in the honest ignorance category - gasifiers can work very well with no electricity or fans required and with the utmost in simplicity. IMO a very overlooked and important capablity for some people & situations that is simply not known about. So my vote is for the natural draft Varm UB 40/50 models.


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## Chris Hoskin (Sep 9, 2013)

maple1 said:


> Gassifiers are unknown to the masses due to simple honest ignorance. I had no clue until I stumbled on this place a couple years ago.
> 
> It is impossible for this ratings thing to work unless everyone doing the ratings has experience with all the boilers on the list. Otherwise it just comes down to experience with the one boiler they own & their personal preferences.
> 
> I like mine, and on that note will point out one thing that has not been mentioned yet that could also be put in the honest ignorance category - gasifiers can work very well with no electricity or fans required and with the utmost in simplicity. IMO a very overlooked and important capablity for some people & situations that is simply not known about. So my vote is for the natural draft Varm UB 40/50 models.




Not to pick a fight maple1, but, I guess I disagree on all counts:  

With Google as your friend, it is hard to imagine that anyone who does even the most limited amount of research is not going to come across wood gasification as an option.  As I have said before, I am pretty well stumped as to why OWB continue to sell in such high numbers, but perhaps it is ignorance of a better option as you suggest.   Hmmm.

I think customer ratings or feedback can, and do, work very well.  I would say that they are one of the key things that make eBay and Amazon work as well as they do.  I don't need to have worked with every seller on eBay to be able to offer feedback on my purchasing experience with one particular seller.  Similarly, I don't need to have owned fifteen vacuum cleaners in order to offer valuable feedback on Amazon about the one that I bought.  I think someone who is considering a wood boiler would find some value in one person's experience with one boiler.  Of course, if the comment starts with "I have owned five different wood boilers in my life and...." well then, that kind of think is obviously going to be given more weight.

Lastly, I'm not sure what the advantage is of a boiler that is able to run without electricity.  Except in the very unusual situation where the heating system distribution is gravity fed, you need electricity for your pumps.  So, if you are going to have to have back-up for at least a couple of pumps, it is easy to supply electricity to the boiler too.  Granted, this is a bit more of a thing if you have a 220V boiler like the Fröling FHG or Tarm Solo Innova, but the Tarm Solo Plus model 30 has a 30 Watt / 110V fan (that's about half the draw of a typical zone pump).  If power outages are are a real concern, make sure you have a wood stove.

Sorry about the over-use of the emoticons, but they are kind of fun 

Chris


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Sep 9, 2013)

Chris Hoskin said:


> I am pretty well stumped as to why OWB continue to sell in such high numbers, but perhaps it is ignorance of a better option as you suggest. Hmmm.


Chris,
IMHO the OWB companies have marketed like crazy and when a non epa OWB could be installed it was a cheaper alternative then the new EPA OWB. I found this site looking for an alternative to an epa OWB because they are too much money for the life expectancy of the unit.
I was originally sticker shocked at the indoor gassers as well. with careful planning and a bit of patience a system can be installed much more in line for a residential purpose.  Your company has a proven track record and great products to sell.
I think if I was building new I would buy the top of the line Froling and storage for a grade entrance basement. But what I have for a house an OWB looks very inviting for simplicity. Might well be the same for others as well. I must say that the PM and CB dealers in NH spent much time with me to educate me on their products, but I just couldn't bite with the cost of the units and the obvious to me efficiency of the units.
This type of central heating has increased in cost from years past. still has great savings potential in long term. But I must say that if you have no heat and a source of wood an OWB can be bought in the morning and running by the end of the weekend.
Also the cost of good cordwood has increased if you buy your wood. Craigslist has all sorts of OWB free wood ads. very low quality wood huge chunks usually but free! personal economics plays a big role in ones decision. when Cat stoves first came out low and behold the green wood burners had dirty glass and clogged cats. education in wood burning and the various options for systems would help the industry.


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## maple1 (Sep 9, 2013)

That's all from my experience, where I live.

When I started out in my searching for a boiler replacement, it was only pure accident that I found this place & learned all about what I know now & own the boiler & setup I do now. Nobody I talked to here [where I live] (or talk to now after the fact) knows anything about gassification or storage. Dealers, suppliers, installers - nobody. There are three manufacturers within an hour of me, they are all stuck in the dark ages with their technology. I was completely on my own, as anyone here [where I live] would be in the same situation. So if area/local dealers, suppliers, manufacturers & installers don't know anything about this stuff - how is the consumer supposed to know? Stumble onto it on the Internet like I did - but you're still left going way beyond the extra mile, in buying what you think you want or need from someone a long ways away (likely in another country), sight unseen (that is sticking your neck way out there given the size of the purchase & committment), and installing it all yourself if you have the ability to and can figure it all out.

Being able to run without electricity was a big consideration for me. Not that it would run that way all the time, but that it is able to, easily, in a power outage. My system can convection flow, and if you you add in the fact that being able to run without electricity also means by extension way less moving parts to worry about breaking down, replacing, or contributing to your power bill - well, I think those are important considerations. To me at least. I have read quite a few controller/fan issue threads on here from more than one brand that are not even a concern to me.

I guess that means we will have to agree to disagree.


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 9, 2013)

The only OWB operator that i know does not have a clue about burning dry wood. He will burn wood the same day he cuts it down. His OWB has HUGE firebox. looks like 9 CU FT 3'x3' . HIS wood pile is also as large as a small house for 1 years worth of heat. More need to be done to address the lack of knowledge with these stoves.


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Sep 9, 2013)

Just a thought.

Has anyone ever seen a math book word problem relating to wood heating?

cords
btus
temp
pump calcs


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## mikefrommaine (Sep 9, 2013)

I definitely would have been interested in a natural draft boiler free from all the electrical gizmos if it had been available when I bought my boiler.

The way I see it the simpler the better. Less things to maintain and lower long term costs. And less parts to worry about replaceing if your dealer closes up shop


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## flyingcow (Sep 9, 2013)

FWIW---, NE WOODBURNER, i also looked at OWB's, then got the price tag. At the time Classic EPA boiler was over $12,000.00  I could buy a high end gasser for 7k to 10k and burn less wood. Stumbled on to this site and the rest is hiistory. 

Getting off topic, try to get back on. I wish Consumer Reports would have done a serious look at wood boilers. but it's not like these things sold in the millions, like washing machines, cars, etc. CR wouldn't sell many copies about wood boilers.

I think PM did one( a couple of yrs ago) but it wasn't very in depth. 

You want to have a spirirted debate, go onto tractorbynet and start a discussion about the value of windchills on tractors and equipment and whether you should plug in the block heaters.


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## simple.serf (Sep 9, 2013)

flyingcow said:


> You want to have a spirirted debate, go onto tractorbynet and start a discussion about the value of windchills on tractors and equipment and whether you should plug in the block heaters.



Haha! Just don't you dare mention the use of Ether... even if the machine was designed with a factory "Ether start" system.

Sorry, was lurking and trying to learn, but I got a good laugh out of this!


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## flyingcow (Sep 9, 2013)

simple.serf said:


> Haha! Just don't you dare mention the use of Ether... even if the machine was designed with a factory "Ether start" system.
> 
> Sorry, was lurking and trying to learn, but I got a good laugh out of this!


Forgot about the ether debate.


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## leon (Sep 9, 2013)

simple.serf said:


> Haha! Just don't you dare mention the use of Ether... even if the machine was designed with a factory "Ether start" system.
> 
> Sorry, was lurking and trying to learn, but I got a good laugh out of this!


 



Nothing wrong with ether as long as its used the right way.
My preference is my 125,000 BTU multifuel space heater
which I use for my truck, firewood processor, tractor and
snow blowers to melt the snow and ice off them and also
warm them up B4 use. You would be surpised how well
a processor works with heated oil the year round-yes I heat
it in the summer too as the tank is 25 gallons of cold oil.


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## Pologuy9906 (Sep 18, 2013)

Its amazing in months time I have learned sop much just reading post and talking to the people on this site. I have found units not even on the list that are somewhat better.


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