# Hole drilled in insert



## bofire14 (Oct 29, 2015)

Hello all. I have a basement fireplace that drafts so well it draws out all the heat. never seen one like this one.
10 hrs with a roaring fire, and still cold 12 ft away. So I thought I would install an old insert (for a couple of seasons) and be ok (with it drafting so well). it has also been cleaned top to bottom. I would love to put a nice epa stove with liner all the way. $3000 or more, so that will have to wait.
I found this dare iv, which ive read good things about. according to the seller, it has been used with gas logs inside. so it has had a hole (2, actually) drilled into the back for the line.
first question is can these holes simply be patched with small pieces of (3/16, 1/4"?) steel welded onto each side? the sides you can get to, that is.
also, this thing has some good rusting on the top. the draft plate is actually rusted stuck, which im sure I can fix.
when this rust is removed,  I would imagine it will leave some pretty good pitted metal behind.
second question is, will this be a problem having the top of the outer metal box thinner as a result of the pitting? thanks all, Jeff.


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## begreen (Oct 29, 2015)

Images didn't post. They may have a path on you local computers? Here's a primer on posting pics on the forums. 
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/putting-images-into-your-forums-posts.87212/


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## bholler (Oct 30, 2015)

bofire14 said:


> Hello all. I have a basement fireplace that drafts so well it draws out all the heat. never seen one like this one.
> 10 hrs with a roaring fire, and still cold 12 ft away.


Honestly the majority of them work that way.



bofire14 said:


> first question is can these holes simply be patched with small pieces of (3/16, 1/4"?) steel welded onto each side? the sides you can get to, that is.


Probably will work



bofire14 said:


> also, this thing has some good rusting on the top. the draft plate is actually rusted stuck, which im sure I can fix.
> when this rust is removed, I would imagine it will leave some pretty good pitted metal behind.
> second question is, will this be a problem having the top of the outer metal box thinner as a result of the pitting?


I doubt it but get the pics up

You still will need a liner hooked to this stove you cant just slide it in the fire box


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## bofire14 (Oct 30, 2015)

begreen said:


> Images didn't post. They may have a path on you local computers? Here's a primer on posting pics on the forums.
> https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/putting-images-into-your-forums-posts.87212/


 
tks begreen.


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## bofire14 (Oct 30, 2015)

bholler said:


> Honestly the majority of them work that way.
> 
> 
> Probably will work
> ...


 
why not? and be as specific as you can please. no doubt, this is what the old dare was designed for. im well aware of creosote buildup and of the fact that a liner would be both safer and better performing.
is there another model, such as a fisher insert, that would be a better slammer? if there even is such a thing as a better slammer.
tks, jeff.


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## Jags (Oct 30, 2015)

Sliding the stove in with a stub pipe (called a slammer install) is no longer an accepted method.  Slammer installs were/are pretty notorious for causing problems.  Everything from creosote build up to chimney fires to CO into the room.  It really needs a liner.


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## coaly (Oct 30, 2015)

bofire14 said:


> why not? and be as specific as you can please. no doubt, this is what the old dare was designed for. im well aware of creosote buildup and of the fact that a liner would be both safer and better performing.
> is there another model, such as a fisher insert, that would be a better slammer? if there even is such a thing as a better slammer.
> tks, jeff.



The specific reasons are as follows; It all has to do with keeping flue temp above the condensing point of 250* to the top. This causes smoke particles to stick and form creosote rapidly.
One reason is since you have to remove the insert for cleaning each time, it's difficult to get a good seal around the entire unit. Any air leak around it is leaked into the flue and cools the exhaust gasses causing lower flue temp and creosote.
Second reason is most fireplaces have a larger flue than stove or insert outlet. This allows exhaust gasses to expand and cool when they fill the larger space.
Third reason is even if an insert was UL Listed to be installed without liner, NFPA standards are updated and require the firebox to be connected directly to flue. (for the above reasons)


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## bofire14 (Oct 30, 2015)

coaly said:


> The specific reasons are as follows; It all has to do with keeping flue temp above the condensing point of 250* to the top. This causes smoke particles to stick and form creosote rapidly.
> One reason is since you have to remove the insert for cleaning each time, it's difficult to get a good seal around the entire unit. Any air leak around it is leaked into the flue and cools the exhaust gasses causing lower flue temp and creosote.
> Second reason is most fireplaces have a larger flue than stove or insert outlet. This allows exhaust gasses to expand and cool when they fill the larger space.
> Third reason is even if an insert was UL Listed to be installed without liner, NFPA standards are updated and require the firebox to be connected directly to flue. (for the above reasons)


 
tks, coaly. the first sentence says it all, really. as far as creosote buildup anyway. and ive read all the rest of it before.
but I also know of so many in use that have no liner at all. I suppose its an "installer beware" sort of thing.

the best measurement I take says this thing is 35" wide into the fireplace. my fireplace opening is 36" wide. is this too tight for expansion of the unit at full temp? expansion beyond the 36" would be bad. jeff.
ive got next to nothing in this. except for the top, and the holes, its in decent shape. from what ive read, it (was) one of the most efficient, clean burning ones made. any ideas on what to do with it? bearing in mind that cruise ships generally have all the anchors they need. all reasonable opinions considered. jeff.

btw, both fans are whisper quiet with strong airflow out of the slots and tubes.


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## coaly (Oct 30, 2015)

It's not going to expand enough to make a difference.
I'd patch the holes with a large washer or small plate with a bolt through it.
I don't know the size of the hole, but If you wanted to get fancy it could be tapped for a pipe plug too. Most people don't have pipe taps, but boilers are threaded for lead safety plugs in the crown sheet (firebox top) and wash out plugs all the time. (coal and wood fired boilers)


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## bofire14 (Oct 30, 2015)

coaly said:


> It's not going to expand enough to make a difference.
> I'd patch the holes with a large washer or small plate with a bolt through it.
> I don't know the size of the hole, but If you wanted to get fancy it could be tapped for a pipe plug too. Most people don't have pipe taps, but boilers are threaded for lead safety plugs in the crown sheet (firebox top) and wash out plugs all the time. (coal and wood fired boilers)



tks, coaly. I didn't think about a bolt and washers. the holes are aligned so one bolt would prob go through.
the holes look to be 1/2". I was going to use pieces of metal maybe an inch across, welding all the way round. didn't know if it had to be the same thickness as the box, which is very thick. looks bigger than 1/4". if youre suggesting washers, then I think youd be ok with 3/16" for patch material.

tell me, would you feel any differently about a fisher insert? several of these pop up from time to time. its still venting into the fireplace, like the dare. the fisher is the other model I have been looking for. I could also raise up a fisher as my hearth is only one brick high.
here is some pics of my fireplace. any suggestions less than $3K would be welcome.
basement. where the dare was bought for. im sure the roaring 10 hr fire pulled in cold air, making the heat from the fire even less in the room. this shares the chimney, via separate flue, with the fireplace above. the first, bottom, square (terra cotta?) liner is on a 45 to pass the upstairs flue. the rest are 17 ft straight up. clean as pin to the top.


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## coaly (Oct 30, 2015)

The Fisher Insert has a few advantages. You can't even compare the two. (I was never a Fisher salesman  )
Since it sticks out into the room, the front half radiates heat through the stove walls. (yours has very little radiation, mainly from the doors) With no blower if power goes down, the Fisher continues to radiate heat from the portion that extends out into the room like a stove. They will also gravity draft (rise without blower) hot air (convection) from the air chamber around firebox. The air intake is below the ash fender, rises up the back, and out vent across top. It also extends out of the hearth for a cook top and humidifier kettle.
I don't know if yours has a damper built in, I don't see a control. Fisher has a built in damper on top with lever or pull chain through face plate.

Another advantage is the very deep firebox shaped to fit wood lengthwise, not only across. They burn better since the air flow coming in the front travels down the logs. They burn down in the front near air intakes to fine ash and leave you with a good pile of coals and charcoal in the rear. You can remove a little ash each morning from the front and rake the coal pile ahead to kindle the new fire on. It takes right off. This way you never have to leave it go out to remove ash. This is critical when used for primary heat or if power is down. Your blowers push hot air out through the slots only. The Fisher blows out across the entire top. The air chamber on the Fisher is designed so the vent pipe between firebox and outer shell gets airflow from the blower removing the heat from the hottest part of the stove. Right around the vent collar. Problem is most Fishers won't have a blower, or two........ and blowers are almost impossible to find.
Here's a thread with good pictures making your own.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/made-a-blower-for-my-fisher-insert.117672/#post-1600025


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## bholler (Oct 30, 2015)

bofire14 said:


> tell me, would you feel any differently about a fisher insert? several of these pop up from time to time. its still venting into the fireplace, like the dare.


no you need a liner for an insert to be run safely no matter what it is


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## bofire14 (Oct 30, 2015)

coaly said:


> The Fisher Insert has a few advantages. You can't even compare the two. (I was never a Fisher salesman  )
> Since it sticks out into the room, the front half radiates heat through the stove walls. (yours has very little radiation, mainly from the doors) With no blower if power goes down, the Fisher continues to radiate heat from the portion that extends out into the room like a stove. They will also gravity draft (rise without blower) hot air (convection) from the air chamber around firebox. The air intake is below the ash fender, rises up the back, and out vent across top. It also extends out of the hearth for a cook top and humidifier kettle.
> I don't know if yours has a damper built in, I don't see a control. Fisher has a built in damper on top with lever or pull chain through face plate.
> 
> ...



yes, my neighbor has a fisher, and uses it constantly in winter. he has no liner of any kind. just vents it into the masonry chimney. and his chimney is shorter, and on an exterior wall.
the dare does have a damper. just that this one is rusted stuck. it also has tubes that run from the back of the outer box to the front, over the flames. this blows air through the outer box but directly over the fire. they exit at the front just over the doors, like, or in the same place as, the fisher.



tks, all. ill figure something out. jeff.

a fireplace dealer told me today that buck still makes an insert that does not require a liner. just a clean, well drafting chimney.
don't know how full of it he is, but that is what he told me.


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## bholler (Oct 30, 2015)

bofire14 said:


> a fireplace dealer told me today that buck still makes an insert that does not require a liner.


He is wrong.  You do not need a liner all the way up to be to code all you need is a section of liner run from the stove into the clay liner and then sealed.  This is called a direct connect and it still meets code (although i dont think it should).  The problem is there really is no way to seal it so it is not really possible to do it correctly.  But no there is no insert made that can be installed without a liner and meet code requirements


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