# Pellet stove and electric usage?



## John Fortier (Feb 21, 2014)

We just got our electric bill today and were floored. With the problems we had with the stove it ran 24/7 for 3 weeks. Our bill went to $238.00 when normally around $110.00. Oil furnace is only on to exercise it when cleaning for maybe 20 mins. Nothing else has changed as far as what we run. I find it very hard to believe a pellet stove can burn that much electric and pray the electric company messed up..What does your stove cost in electric?


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## stovelark (Feb 21, 2014)

Most stoves use about 150-200 watts with ignitor off, about 500 watts with ignitor on.  At 200 watts per hour, about 4.5-5 Kw per day, so depending on your electric rate, about a dollar a day.  My stoves push my bill up about 50 bucks a month I'd say.  My wood stove is zero electricity usage.  The pellet stoves are convenient though.  Don't forget humidifiers too, most of us are using to keep the air moist too.


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## IHATEPROPANE (Feb 21, 2014)

John Fortier said:


> We just got our electric bill today and were floored. With the problems we had with the stove it ran 24/7 for 3 weeks. Our bill went to $238.00 when normally around $110.00. Oil furnace is only on to exercise it when cleaning for maybe 20 mins. Nothing else has changed as far as what we run. I find it very hard to believe a pellet stove can burn that much electric and pray the electric company messed up..What does your stove cost in electric?



About 185 watts 24/7.  My electric rate including all charges is about .20 that comes out to about 25 dollars a month.


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## john193 (Feb 21, 2014)

My mt vernon uses 28 watts running on medium low. 380 at startup.  I average just shy of a kilowatt in 24 hrs. 

What else is electric in your home. Water heater?


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## John Fortier (Feb 21, 2014)

stovelark said:


> Most stoves use about 150-200 watts with ignitor off, about 500 watts with ignitor on.  At 200 watts per hour, about 4.5-5 Kw per day, so depending on your electric rate, about a dollar a day.  My stoves push my bill up about 50 bucks a month I'd say.  My wood stove is zero electricity usage.  The pellet stoves are convenient though.  Don't forget humidifiers too, most of us are using to keep the air moist too.


Which brings up the point that while it was down igniter was why it ran 24/7. So it should be a tad less?


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## jackman (Feb 21, 2014)

Mine uses about 100W with the room air blower on high about 60W on low. You should check it with a Watt Wizard or similar device.


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## John Fortier (Feb 21, 2014)

john193 said:


> My mt vernon uses 28 watts running on medium low. 380 at startup.  I average just shy of a kilowatt in 24 hrs.
> What else is electric in your home. Water heater?


Water heater is a yes...but it is the same we have used for a year. Plus put an insulator wrap on it.


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## IHATEPROPANE (Feb 21, 2014)

John Fortier said:


> Water heater is a yes...but it is the same we have used for a year. Plus put an insulator wrap on it.




Check to see of your bill was an "estimate" or a real reading.


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## John Fortier (Feb 21, 2014)

IHATEPROPANE said:


> Check to see of your bill was an "estimate" or a real reading


It was a real reading. Dec. and Jan. were estimated. For a full year of bills all were normal. This bill jumped by 2.5 %. We are starting to think we must be growing pot in the house and cant find where we started it because we hid it so well. Clicked our heels together and landed in Colorado.


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## chken (Feb 21, 2014)

John Fortier said:


> We just got our electric bill today and were floored. With the problems we had with the stove it ran 24/7 for 3 weeks. Our bill went to $238.00 when normally around $110.00. Oil furnace is only on to exercise it when cleaning for maybe 20 mins. Nothing else has changed as far as what we run. I find it very hard to believe a pellet stove can burn that much electric and pray the electric company messed up..What does your stove cost in electric?


My stove, using a kill-a-watt, uses about 100 watts to 120 watts. Combustion fan uses 20watts, augur uses 25 watts, room blower uses 40 to 80 watts, depending on setting. Igniter uses 300 watts for 10 mins every day when it starts the stove. I calculated for 24/7 use, at 14 cents a kWh, that my stove should add about $21 to my monthly bill.


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## IHATEPROPANE (Feb 21, 2014)

John Fortier said:


> It was a real reading. Dec. and Jan. were estimated. For a full year of bills all were normal. This bill jumped by 2.5 %. We are starting to think we must be growing pot in the house and cant find where we started it because we hid it so well.



Lol....you should be using energy efficient bulbs for that.....


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## tjnamtiw (Feb 21, 2014)

stovelark said:


> Most stoves use about 150-200 watts with ignitor off, about 500 watts with ignitor on.  At 200 watts per hour, about 4.5-5 Kw per day, so depending on your electric rate, about a dollar a day.  My stoves push my bill up about 50 bucks a month I'd say.  My wood stove is zero electricity usage.  The pellet stoves are convenient though.  Don't forget humidifiers too, most of us are using to keep the air moist too.


At $0.10 per KWH during the winter, if my stoves ran 24/7, at the most they would use 5 KWH or $0.50 a day or $15 a month.  No way your stove used that much unless your igniter was stuck on all the time and even at that it would only be an additional $25 at most. Something else was running all the time or the electric company took a bad reading.  Did you look at your meter and compare it to the bill reading?


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## john193 (Feb 21, 2014)

John Fortier said:


> Water heater is a yes...but it is the same we have used for a year. Plus put an insulator wrap on it.


did your electric rate increase? Did you guys run extra loads in the dryer?  More showers, or baths than usual?  I too find it hard to believe that an appliance running a fan 24/7 added $100 to your electric bill.


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## John Fortier (Feb 21, 2014)

IHATEPROPANE said:


> Lol....you should be using energy efficient bulbs for that.....


As soon as I find it ..bulb change is in order..Not...bong hit then ....what was the question? Anyone have a twinkie?


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## John Fortier (Feb 21, 2014)

john193 said:


> did your electric rate increase? Did you guys run extra loads in the dryer?  More showers, or baths than usual?  I too find it hard to believe that an appliance running a fan 24/7 added $100 to your electric bill.


No  we have done nothing different than the norm..at our age what is normal is ....normal?


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## Former Farmer (Feb 21, 2014)

John Fortier said:


> It was a real reading. Dec. and Jan. were estimated.



The utility underestimated usage for Dec. and Jan.  They "corrected" the bill when they actually read the meter and you are paying the difference now.  





John Fortier said:


> Our bill went to $238.00 when normally around $110.00



So your bill was $120 "higher than normal".  But since the utility underestimated for Dec. and Jan., the $120 should be divided by 3 months and you would get $40 per month higher.


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## wsar10 (Feb 21, 2014)

John Fortier said:


> Water heater is a yes...but it is the same we have used for a year. Plus put an insulator wrap on it.


 
Maybe you have an element failing in your water heater, or possibly a motor starting to fail someplace.


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## mrjoshuanyc (Feb 21, 2014)

I had the same deal last month. $295! That is seriously putting a dent in my savings over oil. I will see what this month brings.


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## tjnamtiw (Feb 21, 2014)

mrjoshuanyc said:


> I had the same deal last month. $295! That is seriously putting a dent in my savings over oil. I will see what this month brings.


There is NO WAY that you can blame ONE huge electric bill on a pellet stove, period! You could run ALL the motors continuously and not have that kind of increase.  And to say that the pellet stove is costing more than oil is ludicrous.


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## Jp16 (Feb 21, 2014)

We cut our electric bill in half with the pellet stove, as well as the oil bill.  I would be more inclined to day its a failing electrode in the water heater, most have 2.  One is a quick recovery element and the other will "maintain".  One may have failed.  Also do you have well water or city water.  Have seen failed pumps spike electric bills.  My parents got a $500 electric bill once.  The pipe from their pump broke and the pump was running constantly.


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## tjnamtiw (Feb 21, 2014)

Jp16 said:


> We cut our electric bill in half with the pellet stove, as well as the oil bill.  I would be more inclined to day its a failing electrode in the water heater, most have 2.  One is a quick recovery element and the other will "maintain".  One may have failed.  Also do you have well water or city water.  Have seen failed pumps spike electric bills.  My parents got a $500 electric bill once.  The pipe from their pump broke and the pump was running constantly.


Along the same line, the heater element relay may have burned shut with the element on all the time and the overheated water is tripping the overpressure valve and dumping hot water wherever the pipe is run, perhaps into a crawl space?


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## DBCOOPER (Feb 21, 2014)

Water coming into my house is 39 degrees. Electric water heater is working a lot harder.


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## Tonyray (Feb 21, 2014)

DBCOOPER said:


> Water coming into my house is 39 degrees. Electric water heater is working a lot harder.


got a Harman P61A .
has the electric ignitor..
our bill increased 20.00 month since we got a pellet stove..
OP  has to Have a 220 appliance problem.. water heater maybe..


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## John Fortier (Feb 22, 2014)

Will check appliances.


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## SwineFlue (Feb 22, 2014)

I agree with Former Farmer...  they may have under-estimated your usage for the previous months and  made up for it this month.


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## John Fortier (Feb 22, 2014)

SwineFlue said:


> I agree with Former Farmer...  they may have under-estimated your usage for the previous months and  made up for it this month.


Thinking possibly..big difference still. Don't use the oil furnace which I believe would burn a lot more electric than the stove.


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## TradEddie (Feb 22, 2014)

Something else is happening, possibly just a correction to the two estimated readings, but when something like that happened to me, I eventually discovered that my well pipe had cracked so the well pump was running 24/7!  
Go out a look at the meter, see what you've used since the last bill reading, if that's back to normal, don't worry. Also, prices may have gone up in the new year, compare kwh, not $.

TE


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## SwineFlue (Feb 22, 2014)

John Fortier said:


> Don't use the oil furnace which I believe would burn a lot more electric than the stove


Good point.  My stove uses no more power than one circulator pump on the oil boiler.


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## BrianN (Feb 22, 2014)

John Fortier said:


> We just got our electric bill today and were floored. With the problems we had with the stove it ran 24/7 for 3 weeks. Our bill went to $238.00 when normally around $110.00. Oil furnace is only on to exercise it when cleaning for maybe 20 mins. Nothing else has changed as far as what we run. I find it very hard to believe a pellet stove can burn that much electric and pray the electric company messed up..What does your stove cost in electric?


Last year, Oct. 25 - Dec. 24, my electric bill was just under $400 (3891 kW.h) using my pellet stove, burning 24/7 and barely keeping the house warm.
This year, Oct. 25 - Dec. 24, my electric bill was $153 (1700 kW.h).
The huge difference between this year and last, is that this year, we installed a wood stove, and only used the pellet stove a few days, on the coldest days.
So, I'd have to say that the pellet stove is a huge energy eater, in our home anyways.
Will be interesting to see what our bill is for the past two months (bill will be in within the next couple days). It is estimated at around $150, where last year it was $361.


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## SwineFlue (Feb 22, 2014)

Were either of you using extra fans to move the heat from the pellet stoves?




BrianN said:


> Last year, Oct. 25 - Dec. 24, my electric bill was just under $400 (3891 kW.h) using my pellet stove, burning 24/7 and barely keeping the house warm.
> This year, Oct. 25 - Dec. 24, my electric bill was $153 (1700 kW.h).



That's something like an extra 1400 Watts, running 24/7


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## wsar10 (Feb 22, 2014)

SwineFlue said:


> Were either of you using extra fans to move the heat from the pellet stoves?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Sounds like a heating element to me !!
I would be looking into that hot water heater, start with the thermostat.
I think if an electric motor someplace was dissipating 1400W you would know it.... probably by means of a fire extiguasher !


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## SwineFlue (Feb 22, 2014)

wsar10 said:


> Sounds like a heating element to me !!
> I would be looking into that hot water heater, start with the thermostat.
> I think if an electric motor someplace was dissipating 1400W you would know it.... probably by means of a fire extiguasher !



My post may have mis-lead you...   he is using that much less electricity this season!   But I agree, I don't see how an Accentra could have drawn 1400 Watts last year.


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## wsar10 (Feb 22, 2014)

SwineFlue said:


> My post may have mis-lead you...   he is using that much less electricity this season!   But I agree, I don't see how an Accentra could have drawn 1400 Watts last year.


 
O I C,
My mistake.......


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## mrjoshuanyc (Feb 22, 2014)

tjnamtiw said:


> There is NO WAY that you can blame ONE huge electric bill on a pellet stove, period! You could run ALL the motors continuously and not have that kind of increase.  And to say that the pellet stove is costing more than oil is ludicrous.


Honestly I dont know what to make of it.  I did go away last month and left my mother in law in the house with the kids so I am not sure what she did but that was the highest bill during the winter I have had yet. Ill see what this month brings.


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## IHATEPROPANE (Feb 22, 2014)

BrianN said:


> Last year, Oct. 25 - Dec. 24, my electric bill was just under $400 (3891 kW.h) using my pellet stove, burning 24/7 and barely keeping the house warm.
> This year, Oct. 25 - Dec. 24, my electric bill was $153 (1700 kW.h).
> The huge difference between this year and last, is that this year, we installed a wood stove, and only used the pellet stove a few days, on the coldest days.
> So, I'd have to say that the pellet stove is a huge energy eater, in our home anyways.
> Will be interesting to see what our bill is for the past two months (bill will be in within the next couple days). It is estimated at around $150, where last year it was $361.



There is zero chance your pellet stove used that much difference in electricity.


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## chken (Feb 22, 2014)

John Fortier said:


> We just got our electric bill today and were floored. With the problems we had with the stove it ran 24/7 for 3 weeks. Our bill went to $238.00 when normally around $110.00. Oil furnace is only on to exercise it when cleaning for maybe 20 mins. Nothing else has changed as far as what we run. I find it very hard to believe a pellet stove can burn that much electric and pray the electric company messed up..What does your stove cost in electric?


Maybe posting your bill will help others interpret it.


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## Harvey Schneider (Feb 22, 2014)

John Fortier said:


> We just got our electric bill today and were floored. With the problems we had with the stove it ran 24/7 for 3 weeks. Our bill went to $238.00 when normally around $110.00. Oil furnace is only on to exercise it when cleaning for maybe 20 mins. Nothing else has changed as far as what we run. I find it very hard to believe a pellet stove can burn that much electric and pray the electric company messed up..What does your stove cost in electric?


You really can't go by the dollar amount of you bill because rates and fees can change. You really have to compare kWh's consumed for the period. Also, as pointed out by Former Farmer, if adjacent months were estimated you don't have a real number for the consumed energy for that month.


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## Cleetussnow (Feb 22, 2014)

mrjoshuanyc said:


> Honestly I dont know what to make of it.  I did go away last month and left my mother in law in the house with the kids so I am not sure what she did but that was the highest bill during the winter I have had yet. Ill see what this month brings.



If you had con edison, your electric rates have nearly doubled in the last year.  I got the highest electric bill i have ever seen at over 300, and according to my bill, it was one of the lowest usage months i have had in the last year.  
Electricity rates are going up everywhere due to regulation.  Regulations by uncle sam are reducing the amount of electricity produced, so we get higher bills since there is less of it.  Higher bills are coming to everyone, in particular in the northeast.  

My rate was .20 per kilowatt hour.  Its the highest rate i have ever heard of so i switched carriers, apparently offering me   A third of that rate.  We will see.


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## Harvey Schneider (Feb 22, 2014)

Cleetussnow said:


> apparently offering me A third of that rate. We will see.


I hope you read the fine print. I accepted a low rate discount last year and at the end of a short period the rate skyrocketed. My usage in kWh was down 27% and my cost in dollars was up 20%. WTF?
I have now switched to a fixed rate, green (wind) supplier. It's not the lowest rate offered, but it is fixed for 12 months.


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## IHATEPROPANE (Feb 22, 2014)

Cleetussnow said:


> If you had con edison, your electric rates have nearly doubled in the last year.  I got the highest electric bill i have ever seen at over 300, and according to my bill, it was one of the lowest usage months i have had in the last year.
> Electricity rates are going up everywhere due to regulation.  Regulations by uncle sam are reducing the amount of electricity produced, so we get higher bills since there is less of it.  Higher bills are coming to everyone, in particular in the northeast.
> 
> My rate was .20 per kilowatt hour.  Its the highest rate i have ever heard of so i switched carriers, apparently offering me   A third of that rate.  We will see.



My rate went from about .14 per kwh to .20.  I was outta my mind mad when I noticed my bill went from 150 to 220.  Imagine if you heat with electric????


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## tjnamtiw (Feb 22, 2014)

mrjoshuanyc said:


> Honestly I dont know what to make of it.  I did go away last month and left my mother in law in the house with the kids so I am not sure what she did but that was the highest bill during the winter I have had yet. Ill see what this month brings.


That answers that question!!  Mother in law = thermostat to the max = mucho $$$


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## tjnamtiw (Feb 22, 2014)

IHATEPROPANE said:


> My rate went from about .14 per kwh to .20.  I was outta my mind mad when I noticed my bill went from 150 to 220.  Imagine if you heat with electric????


"Your electrical costs will necessarily skyrocket"...............  WAS NO ONE LISTENING???????????


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## tjnamtiw (Feb 22, 2014)

BrianN said:


> Last year, Oct. 25 - Dec. 24, my electric bill was just under $400 (3891 kW.h) using my pellet stove, burning 24/7 and barely keeping the house warm.
> This year, Oct. 25 - Dec. 24, my electric bill was $153 (1700 kW.h).
> The huge difference between this year and last, is that this year, we installed a wood stove, and only used the pellet stove a few days, on the coldest days.
> So, I'd have to say that the pellet stove is a huge energy eater, in our home anyways.
> Will be interesting to see what our bill is for the past two months (bill will be in within the next couple days). It is estimated at around $150, where last year it was $361.


No way was this caused by a pellet stove - period!  I think we are on a witch hunt and don't know what a witch looks like!


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## Tonyray (Feb 22, 2014)

Our Electric is always around 80.00 month. just the 2 of us here.
wife hangs clothes outside, cook on the grill 4 nites a week etc..
got a pellet stove in November and now bill is around 102.00 month..


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## tjnamtiw (Feb 22, 2014)

Tonyray said:


> Our Electric is always around 80.00 month. just the 2 of us here.
> wife hangs clothes outside, cook on the grill 4 nites a week etc..
> got a pellet stove in November and now bill is around 102.00 month..


Bucks County, Pennsylvania........


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## IHATEPROPANE (Feb 22, 2014)

tjnamtiw said:


> Bucks County, Pennsylvania........




Yeah,  they are fortunate enough to not be in the Northeast......

If I understand correctly if New York would lift the fracking ban then the northeast would be loaded with Natural Gas.  Maybe if enough people get fed up with the high costs things will change.


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## wsar10 (Feb 22, 2014)

IHATEPROPANE said:


> Yeah,  they are fortunate enough to not be in the Northeast......
> 
> If I understand correctly if New York would lift the fracking ban then the northeast would be loaded with Natural Gas.  Maybe if enough people get fed up with the high costs things will change.


 
The treehugers are not going anyplace anytime soon in NY 
I can promise you that 

And trust me after we loose Tom Corbett (unfortunately) here in PA we will have our own fracking bans, and NG will shoot through the roof (compared to what it has been).


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## IHATEPROPANE (Feb 22, 2014)

wsar10 said:


> The treehugers are not going anyplace anytime soon in NY
> I can promise you that
> 
> And trust me after we loose Tom Corbett (unfortunately) here in PA we will have our own fracking bans, and NG will shoot through the roof (compared to what it has been).



Well hopefully they can be educated to the fact that fracking today is not what it was yesterday.  

Not to get too political here but I think Obama backing Nat Gas as a bridge fuel until the other energy technologies can become economically viable could potentially be one of the biggest boosts to our economy in our recent history.  I look forward to seeing what happens.


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## Lake Girl (Feb 22, 2014)

Our electric bill goes up when pellet stove is in use but I was getting far higher bills with the forced air heat.  Same with pellets vs. oil - have to pay to heat your home but it still is far less than what it used to be...


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## DBCOOPER (Feb 22, 2014)

People, it's KWH not dollars that you need to compare when you try to figure out usage...


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## tjnamtiw (Feb 22, 2014)

IHATEPROPANE said:


> Yeah,  they are fortunate enough to not be in the Northeast......
> 
> If I understand correctly if New York would lift the fracking ban then the northeast would be loaded with Natural Gas.  Maybe if enough people get fed up with the high costs things will change.


But they ARE fortunate enough to be sitting on top of never-ending coal.


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## boomhour (Feb 22, 2014)

Power consumption running 120 volts works out to min of .25 amps to a max of .65 amps.  Running on 12 volt is 1.8 amps to a max of 4.5 amps, standby power is 0.10 amps. Not  much of a concern considering we started heating on and off Sept 7/13 maybe $50 dollars for the year, give or take a few bucks.


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## Gentcpa (Feb 23, 2014)

My electric bill has gone up by $150 a month since running the pellet stove.  Electric usage right now is the same as it is in the Summer when I am running a pool and four window shaker A/C units.  Not very impressed.  Running a EP-25 stove.


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## chken (Feb 23, 2014)

Gentcpa said:


> My electric bill has gone up by $150 a month since running the pellet stove.  Electric usage right now is the same as it is in the Summer when I am running a pool and four window shaker A/C units.  Not very impressed.  Running a EP-25 stove.


Something's wrong with your stove, maybe the igniter doesn't turn off. Check with a kill-a-watt device. My stove runs 24/7 and it adds $21 to my monthly bill, based upon a 14 cent/kwh rate.


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## CaptSpiff (Feb 23, 2014)

Lets run the numbers again: most pellet stoves run at 180 to 220 watts per hour. The 300 watt igniter only runs for 10-15 minutes, so lets assume worst case it comes on every hour for 15 minutes (thats 75 watts per hour). So your stove uses 275 w/hr or 0.275 kw/hr, or about 6.6 kwhrs per day, or 198 kwhrs in a 30 day month.

BORING  

OK, so lets talk $$$. I hate the fact that I live in the region with the highest electric rates in the US: 23 cents per kwhr , but even here running the stove 24/7 for a month would only be US$45.54. Total.

So the problem is not the Pellet Stove. 
Wanna know a secret?
Women adjust the thermostat when we aren't looking.
So women are the problem!  
But as men we already knew that,... now pay the damn electric bill.


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## IHATEPROPANE (Feb 23, 2014)

Gentcpa said:


> My electric bill has gone up by $150 a month since running the pellet stove.  Electric usage right now is the same as it is in the Summer when I am running a pool and four window shaker A/C units.  Not very impressed.  Running a EP-25 stove.



Seems like there is a lot of weird electric bill numbers,  everyone I talk to has a high bill.  Mine was 198.  I have a gas direct water heater, all energy efficient lights, a new fridge.  My kwh usage was 1298 last month.  Have no idea why so high.  My stove is on a ups so I can see the usage.  Less than 200.  I checked my meter and for the first three days since the bill it's only at 69 kwh.  That is on pace for about half of last month, but why?  I am going to monitor my meter closely this month.


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## Pellet-King (Feb 23, 2014)

My stove uses 45 watt's running, checked it with a killowatt, thats a light bulb running, dont think it really makes my bill go up, but 2 kids, computer's, xbox's,big screen tv's, hot tub, hybrid water heater lot's of blu-ray/cable boxes plugged in everywere do...
CLP here raised there rates 2 cents per kwh beggining the new year


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## urkiddin (Feb 23, 2014)

I think every utility in the country wants to get in on the shortage act. My electric bill just about doubled last month. The part that hurts is our KWH actually went down slightly but the cost per KWH went up.


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## Lfdp13RET (Feb 23, 2014)

This fall son moved out electric bill dropped.  Stove in on January 3rd, march electric bill even lower!  The oil burner and power vent suck up the juice and despite being so cold are hardly running!


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## Former Farmer (Feb 23, 2014)

urkiddin said:


> I think every utility in the country wants to get in on the shortage act. My electric bill just about doubled last month. The part that hurts is our KWH actually went down slightly but the cost per KWH went up.



Very good point.  Everybody needs to look at actual usage versus costs.  Compare this January usage to last January usage.  Check your electric bills to see if they are estimates or actual readings.  Read your electric meter yourself.  Write it down and see how much you are using.  I read my meter every week, Sunday mornings.  This way I know what I have used and what my solar has produced. 

Winter months are higher usage months for me.  Shorter days equals more lights usage.  We use the stove more versus the grill, furnace fan running, and the list goes on.


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## Harvey Schneider (Feb 23, 2014)

Gentcpa said:


> My electric bill has gone up by $150 a month since running the pellet stove. Electric usage right now is the same as it is in the Summer when I am running a pool and four window shaker A/C units. Not very impressed. Running a EP-25 stove.


You can't compare energy consumption by looking at monthly cost!
The only way you can compare energy consumption is by looking at actual average kWh consumed for equivalent time periods. 
Even variations of month length can skew the comparison; February has 28 days, January has 31. That's a 10% variance
Use average *actual *daily kWh consumed.
It is really simple, but you have to do the numbers.


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## wsar10 (Feb 23, 2014)

IHATEPROPANE said:


> Well hopefully they can be educated to the fact that fracking today is not what it was yesterday.
> 
> Not to get too political here but I think Obama backing Nat Gas as a bridge fuel until the other energy technologies can become economically viable could potentially be one of the biggest boosts to our economy in our recent history.  I look forward to seeing what happens.


 
I cant comment on the backing of NG as a bridge fuel, I would be speaking out of place. BUT he could spend a little time on the Keystone Pipeline !

I agree about education, problem is it seems most people educate themselves from CNN and therer favorite artist !


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## tjnamtiw (Feb 23, 2014)

chken said:


> Something's wrong with your stove, maybe the igniter doesn't turn off. Check with a kill-a-watt device. My stove runs 24/7 and it adds $21 to my monthly bill, based upon a 14 cent/kwh rate.


Even with the igniter running full time at $.20/kwh, it would only be $40 more.  We are having a rash of people not thinking about what they are saying.  A PELLET STOVE CANNOT USE THAT MUCH ELECTRICITY!  Look at all the other suggestions and do some actual investigation into possible reasons for the increase such as water heater problems, mother-in-laws turning your normal heating system up while you are gone or doing extra loads of wash or cooking, estimated vs actual bills, extra guests in the house taking more showers than normal.  
IT AIN'T THE PELLET STOVE!


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## tjnamtiw (Feb 23, 2014)

wsar10 said:


> I cant comment on the backing of NG as a bridge fuel, I would be speaking out of place. BUT he could spend a little time on the Keystone Pipeline !
> 
> I agree about education, problem is it seems most people educate themselves from CNN and therer favorite artist !


The Keystone pipeline will be delayed as long as Warren Buffet has the marionette strings and keeps protecting his rail lines that are presently carrying the oil that WOULD HAVE been traveling down the pipeline.

As for NG, this week it was announced that there are big plans to liquefy much more of it for shipment to other countries.  Just like coal, we are sending our natural resources overseas so that all that's left are the non-existent green energies, hence the spike in electrical costs.


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## wsar10 (Feb 23, 2014)

Another option is the "dip tube" in the water heater.........
especially if you have well water.


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## tjnamtiw (Feb 23, 2014)

wsar10 said:


> Another option is the "dip tube" in the water heater.........


Yes, they have a habit of falling off. They run the cold water to the bottom of the tank and push the hot water up to the outlet.  When they fall off, the cold water is introduced into the hot water, cools it off and turns on the heater's 4500 watt (usually) element.  
I have a whole house electrical monitoring system that it appears several people here could benefit from. It's called The Energy Detective (TED).  I certainly don't endorse it because it has given me the fits over the years and I am banned from their forum because I questioned their support and design  but it IS very accurate to within a dollar or two of my actual bill. You can see the occasional spikes as my water heater comes on.  The other ones are my stove and heat pump (not running the pellet stoves).


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## wsar10 (Feb 23, 2014)

tjnamtiw said:


> The Keystone pipeline will be delayed as long as Warren Buffet has the marionette strings and keeps protecting his rail lines that are presently carrying the oil that WOULD HAVE been traveling down the pipeline.
> 
> As for NG, this week it was announced that there are big plans to liquefy much more of it for shipment to other countries.  Just like coal, we are sending our natural resources overseas so that all that's left are the non-existent green energies, hence the spike in electrical costs.


 
I figured if the anointed one was talking NG it was something like this. ^^.........

"don't look behind the curtain folks", just keep watching straight ahead !


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## wsar10 (Feb 23, 2014)

tjnamtiw said:


> Yes, they have a habit of falling off. They run the cold water to the bottom of the tank and push the hot water up to the outlet.  When they fall off, the cold water is introduced into the hot water, cools it off and turns on the heater's 4500 watt (usually) element.
> I have a whole house electrical monitoring system that it appears several people here could benefit from. It's called The Energy Detective (TED).  I certainly don't endorse it because it has given me the fits over the years and I am banned from their forum because I questioned their support and design  but it IS very accurate to within a dollar or two of my actual bill. You can see the occasional spikes as my water heater comes on.  The other ones are my stove and heat pump (not running the pellet stoves).
> View attachment 128316


 
Is this something that is open source ?
What hardware is involved ?


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## tjnamtiw (Feb 23, 2014)

http://www.theenergydetective.com/
Yes, it's hardware driven.  You put current transformers around the two main input lines in your breaker box, hook up a transmitter to an open breaker, and plug a communication unit into an open outlet and run a wire back to your router.  What I didn't like about the system is that they use house wiring for communicating with the main unit, which is super antiquated technology that lays itself open to all kinds of interference.  I had a dimmer switch that caused interference and frustration until I found it.  Why they don't use a wireless technology was beyond me, hence the banning when others agreed with me.


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## wsar10 (Feb 23, 2014)

tjnamtiw said:


> http://www.theenergydetective.com/
> Yes, it's hardware driven.  You put current transformers around the two main input lines in your breaker box, hook up a transmitter to an open breaker, and plug a communication unit into an open outlet and run a wire back to your router.  What I didn't like about the system is that they use house wiring for communicating with the main unit, which is super antiquated technology that lays itself open to all kinds of interference.  I had a dimmer switch that caused interference and frustration until I found it.  Why they don't use a wireless technology was beyond me, hence the banning when others agreed with me.


 
Ill check that out.
I'm unfamiliar with the product, but I would think you could capture whatever logic the software is looking for somehow and use something like an Arduino (engineering development board) and a Wi-Fi shield to make it wireless.........
Just a stab in the dark.


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## mrjoshuanyc (Feb 23, 2014)

Cleetussnow said:


> If you had con edison, your electric rates have nearly doubled in the last year.  I got the highest electric bill i have ever seen at over 300, and according to my bill, it was one of the lowest usage months i have had in the last year.
> Electricity rates are going up everywhere due to regulation.  Regulations by uncle sam are reducing the amount of electricity produced, so we get higher bills since there is less of it.  Higher bills are coming to everyone, in particular in the northeast.
> 
> My rate was .20 per kilowatt hour.  Its the highest rate i have ever heard of so i switched carriers, apparently offering me   A third of that rate.  We will see.


 
Thats crazy! Getting squeezed everywhere you turn!


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## tjnamtiw (Feb 23, 2014)

wsar10 said:


> Ill check that out.
> I'm unfamiliar with the product, but I would think you could capture whatever logic the software is looking for somehow and use something like an Arduino (engineering development board) and a Wi-Fi shield to make it wireless.........
> Just a stab in the dark.


A man after my own heart!  Have you looked at the CUBLOC system?  Very inexpensive and, what I like, you can program in BOTH Basic AND ladder logic at the same time, using Basic subroutines within the ladder.  I worked with ladder logic for a good part of my career so I like the logic step sequence.


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## Tonyray (Feb 23, 2014)

This from Pennsylvania:
Some Pennsylvanians are getting sticker shock when opening their energy bills this month. 

Acting Pennsylvania Consumer Advocate Tanya McCloskey says the very cold weather in January did more than make people run their furnaces longer. It caused price spikes on the wholesale electrictity market. Those higher costs were passed on to people who did not lock in a guaranteed price for buying power, sparking many complaints.

"These are the people that were not on default service with their local utility or not on a fixed rate option with an alternative electric generation supplier," McCloskey said. "These are customers who were on a variable rate option with the electric generation supplier."

McCloskey says for some, the price per kilowatt hour tripled or quadrupled. Ben Armstrong of PECO says the utility changes its supply charges every three months.

"We believe that the rates our customers pay today will be about the same that they will be paying on March 1 and we would provide advance communication through bills of any changes that do occur," he said.

Armstrong says if you have a question and even if you use an alternative supplier, PECO has a phone number on your bill to call for assistance.


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## chken (Feb 23, 2014)

In the southern half of Maine where CMP operates, they now use digital meters, so no need for them to estimate. You can look at your own energy use down to the hour.

It's really easy for me to see that I was using 25.5kwh a day up until I installed my pellet stove, and from that point on, I was using around 30 to 31kwh a day. That works out to $20 to $23 a month more for my pellet stove based upon 14.5 cents /kwh. That's exactly what I was expecting based upon the energy use of my stove. As many people are getting their bills for January usage, I wonder if there was a rate hike between December and January?

In years past, I was only 19kwh a day, but now I run in the Winter, 2 humidifiers, an underfloor electric radiant mat in the bathroom, and my heat pump water heater has been running in electric mode since the heat pump failed. Hopefully the repairman will fix the heat pump tomorrow!


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## wsar10 (Feb 23, 2014)

They want to impose smart meters here (big brother in all walks of life), We as a consumers continue to fight it and have been successful for the last 5 years, but they will ultimately win at some point and force us to all use smart meters. They passed legislation in PA to force it but we have kept it in appeals for the last few years. Like I posted before (maybe not in this thread) we use a time of day meter, we pay on peak and off peak rates, which saves us money since our schedules leave the house pretty much empty all day.


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## BrotherBart (Feb 23, 2014)

I have been ragging on our co-op for two years to get off their butts and get me on a smart meter.,


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## IHATEPROPANE (Feb 23, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> I have been ragging on our co-op for two years to get off their butts and get me on a smart meter.,



Can you describe some of the potential benefits of having a smart meter?


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## BrotherBart (Feb 23, 2014)

Gives me better information than my monitor strapped on the meter and lowers the co-ops cost.
I ain't afraid of my electric company. 

As well as letting them know when they have my power back on after an outage. They always get everybody else's back on and think I am too since I have a separate transformer up here in the woods . And have to come back out one more time.


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## IHATEPROPANE (Feb 23, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> Gives me better information than my monitor strapped on the meter and lowers the co-ops cost.
> I ain't afraid of my electric company.
> 
> As well as letting them know when they have my power back on after an outage. They always get everybody else's back on and think I am too since I have a separate transformer up here in the woods . And have to come back out one more time.



Would it give you more information or just them?  Is there a website one could log into?  

My biggest concern would be that they charge more for the specific hours where we would use max kwh.

Ps, sucks about being the last to get power back.


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## chken (Feb 23, 2014)

wsar10 said:


> They want to impose smart meters here (big brother in all walks of life), We as a consumers continue to fight it and have been successful for the last 5 years, but they will ultimately win at some point and force us to all use smart meters. They passed legislation in PA to force it but we have kept it in appeals for the last few years. Like I posted before (maybe not in this thread) we use a time of day meter, we pay on peak and off peak rates, which saves us money since our schedules leave the house pretty much empty all day.


I'm a civil libertarian, but I see no issue with a smart meter.

I looked into variable rates for on/off peak, but in Maine it's not at all financially attractive, since there's a surcharge for that service, or so it appeared to me when I looked into it. If one can shift more of their energy use to off-peak hours, then it makes more sense, so if you have an electric car that you charge at night, or if you can do laundry at night, then it starts to make sense.


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## chken (Feb 23, 2014)

IHATEPROPANE said:


> Would it give you more information or just them?  Is there a website one could log into?
> 
> My biggest concern would be that they charge more for the specific hours where we would use max kwh.
> 
> Ps, sucks about being the last to get power back.


Here in Maine, you can see your power use from the prior day on back, down to every 15 mins intervals. That's a lot of granularity. And as someone else noted, it tells them when you have an outage, and when your power is back. I don't see a downside. The amount of electricity used was the same. No inaccuracy that I can see.

As far as charging more, I think their goal is more for load balancing than picking on individual homes and trying to max revenue. At least in Maine, there's a rate-setting committee, so our rates don't change often, I think yearly. And, there's a variable rate option for those who can take advantage of off-peak rates, but it's an option, not forced upon anyone.


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## wsar10 (Feb 23, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> Gives me better information than my monitor strapped on the meter and lowers the co-ops cost.
> I ain't afraid of my electric company.
> 
> As well as letting them know when they have my power back on after an outage. They always get everybody else's back on and think I am too since I have a separate transformer up here in the woods . And have to come back out one more time.


 
Thats how they sale you on it......
But wait till the day comes when "they" feel your using too much electricity and all of a sudden your compressor motor in your A/C quits ! The point of a smart meter is monitoring so "they" can make adjustments where needed, than when they make that adjustment your food spoils and so so you on a 90 degree day. NOTHING good can come from extending the governments reach ! Penn-Elec wants to the customer to make up for there poor fiscal responsibility rather than looking with-in. Maybe in your area "smart meter" means something different, or nobody has figured out what "smart" truly means.

My "time of day meter" is digital, and will tell me days usage, total usage, 30 day usage, and current usage. We have no surcharge other than an increased rate from 7a-5p (IIRC), but if you DO NOT use at least %60 of your electricity on "off peak times" than a time of day meter will cost you more. We use (most months) %70 "off peak" so it's a good thing for our lifestyle. We had to bump the kids "bath time" up an hour later but other than that no real changes.


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## BrotherBart (Feb 23, 2014)

I hardly think my electric co-op installing a smart meter is going to extend "the governments reach".  And no smart meter I know of can shut off the A/C or fridge without shutting down all of the juice to the house. Which is an instant lawsuit. 

But this one has gone so far off the rails it is ridiculous. With my participation. Sheesh!


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## wsar10 (Feb 23, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> I hardly think my electric co-op installing a smart meter is going to extend "the governments reach".  And no smart meter I know of can shut off the A/C or fridge without shutting down all of the juice to the house. Which is an instant lawsuit.
> 
> But this one has gone so far off the rails it is ridiculous. With my participation. Sheesh!


 
A smart meter (micro-controlled)is designed  be able limit your power by the supplier as needed to even out loads elsewhere. and your A/C motors will be the first to notice.


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## BrotherBart (Feb 23, 2014)

We have had load management controllers on the water heater and A/C to let them do that with this co-op since 1982. 54,000 of us.

Let's get back to how much juice a pellet stove uses.


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## john193 (Feb 23, 2014)

I live in PA and just had a smart meter installed. I like it because it can give me more real time data (I say real time in relative terms, it's still about 24hrs delayed). 

I also recently locked in a generation rate of 7.99 a kWh. With my PECO customer and distribution charges I pay about 14.5 cents a kWh.


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## john193 (Feb 23, 2014)

wsar10 said:


> A smart meter (micro-controlled)is designed  be able limit your power by the supplier as needed to even out loads elsewhere. and your A/C motors will be the first to notice.



Only if you sign up for it. At least that is the case here in PA.


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## hoverwheel (Feb 23, 2014)

mrjoshuanyc said:


> ...I did go away last month and left my mother in law in the house with the kids ...



Mystery solved




chken said:


> I'm a civil libertarian, but I see no issue with a smart meter....



You should be able to have your smart meter if you want it. The issue is they are being forced on people that don't want them, for whatever reason. That is antithetical to the libertarian ideals you mentioned.


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## BrotherBart (Feb 23, 2014)

And on that note...


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