# Pic of inside my masonry chimney. Do I have a lot of Creosote?



## NewtownPA (Oct 11, 2007)

> EDIT: I added a chimney liner. Click here to see how I installed it:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/10193/P0/
<<<

*The PREVIOUS OWNER installed everything you see on this page. The woodstove and setup came "as is" when I bought the house.*


Ok tell me if I have a lot of creosote? I Photoshopped the image to brighten it since it was so DARK down there!

Last night I burned a CSL (Creosote Sweeping Log). I was confused if it should SMOULDER the entire time, or if it should BURN. So I burned it for 75% of the time and smouldered it for 25% of the time.

A little background:
Owned the house for 3 years. Had it cleaned twice (this pic is one day after the chimney sweep cleaned it). He said it needs to be chain-whipped and quoted $400 for doing that. (Is that NORMAL? FOUR HUNDRED FRIGGIN BUCKS?!! Might as well put a new liner for that price!)


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## NewtownPA (Oct 11, 2007)

New CROWN that cost me $140.

Looks good to me - but I'm a computer programmer so what do I know?!


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## NewtownPA (Oct 11, 2007)

Output from the wood stove.


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## struggle (Oct 11, 2007)

That is about the way my upstairs chimney looks I guess after burning all winter so it does not seem that bad to me. I have certainly seen much worse. 

The experts will chime in soon. 

Do you have a chimney cap? If not that is a must I would say for sure.

Ok NOW I see a big problem. YOU need a much better fitting stove collar for sure. That does not look like it could seal at all at that angle and could cause a creosote problem by letting in cooler air in right there.


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## NewtownPA (Oct 11, 2007)

Oval flex liner. This is a short piece from what they told me...

What the heck is that pipe in there for? Dunno...

Oh and when they "swept" the chimeny they did not remove any of that insulation. Is that a fire hazard (bits of creosote that collect on the other side of the insulation?)


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## NewtownPA (Oct 11, 2007)

You're too fast  :D

Yep, here's the cap. Is it sufficient?


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## struggle (Oct 11, 2007)

You have no block off plate? Or is it removed for the picture? If no block plate I am stepping back out of this one since it will not meet safety codes at current set up.


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## NewtownPA (Oct 11, 2007)

Here's what it looked like BEFORE they cleaned it.


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## NewtownPA (Oct 11, 2007)

struggle said:
			
		

> You have no block off plate? Or is it removed for the picture? If no block plate I am stepping back out of this one since it will not meet safety codes at current set up.



What you see is what it is... I've never seen back inside there before. That pic is the first time I looked. What does a block off plate look like?


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## struggle (Oct 11, 2007)

Cap looks good to me. 

Now about that block off plate and that flue collar joint :ahhh:


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## n6crv (Oct 11, 2007)

In the number 3 picture it looks like there is Creosote sitting all over the top of the stove. Sure hope the sweep did not leave it like that?


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## NewtownPA (Oct 11, 2007)

struggle said:
			
		

> Cap looks good to me.
> 
> Now about that block off plate and that flue collar joint :ahhh:



Well the joint looks dislodged because they guy had pulled the stove out and it sort of came out a bit. If it was pushed in snug would that be ok?

Can you tell me more about the block of plate. I have never owned a woodstove prior to this one and I am trying to learn as much as possible about how it all works. I don't want a disaster


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## struggle (Oct 11, 2007)

Others will chime in about that. At your current set up it is considered quite dagerous from all my reading around here. I would search for block off plate and see what you come up with. 

Others will very soon follow as I have a free standing unit and all I know is this is NOT a SAFE set up.

A block off plate seals the cavity in which you liner passes into the chimney and the fact you have a direct connect you may want to disclose what type of stove you are running. It might need to be running on a liner instead of a direct connect to a chimney like that as the liner you show atttached to the stove must dead end some where in the chimney as it clearly does not exit the chimney top tile.


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## NewtownPA (Oct 11, 2007)

N6CRV said:
			
		

> In the number 3 picture it looks like there is Creosote sitting all over the top of the stove. Sure hope the sweep did not leave it like that?



That pic was taken moments before he swept those bits off. They were crumbly creosote.

I'll tell you one thing. I'm sick of "professionals" (in any profession) who either don't do a good job, or who gauge their customers. I'm a DIY person myself; as long as I know what the heck I"m doing, and that's why I am here since I don't trust these guys... I want a safe and sound system without overpaying.


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## NewtownPA (Oct 11, 2007)

My stove is an Avalon Rainier Insert.


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## NewtownPA (Oct 11, 2007)

Avalon Rainier Insert


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## NewtownPA (Oct 11, 2007)

I burn this much wood a season:


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## Stevebass4 (Oct 11, 2007)

a block off plate goes between the the insert and where the direct connect goes into the flue - think of it as damper in a normal fire place - you want a fire open the damper.   it's just a stainless steel plate with a hole in it so your pipe can go through it 

i just cleaned my chimney for the first time and i removed the whole insert / block off plate / direct connect and ran the brush down the flue tiles and cleaned the smoke box until it looked new 

most here will sugest that you should use a liner  and i plan to get one soon but my set up is like yours right now 

also the CSL does nothing so save your money


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## elkimmeg (Oct 11, 2007)

Your setup the fact so much cresote fell on top of that stove while cleaning tells you how useless using common fiber glass insulation for a block off plate

It chunks that big fall threw then what about Carbon monoxide gases and smoke backing up? the flue collar connection is about the worst I have seem Common crimping is 1.5" deep.
 When one see more than an inch that is not a good connection probably leaking like a sieve. Then where are the flue collar screws? to hold that connection in place?

This is a prime example of why I still have a job as an inspector Inspections would catch these code violations.  Every direct connection requires a b damper block off plate and not stuffing common fiberglass insulation in there and  that's it .The flue collar connection no crimping should be seen. It should be fully inserted to the rib above the crimping then secured by 3 screws.

In one of the pictures it shows an incorrect distance on the hearth in front of the loading door.  I hear yeah about paying for a professional installation Installations get much better when the installer know an Inspector is going to call out installations such as you have. In my town it only cost $30 for the permit and inspection.  which in your case would have been a bargain, to call out your installer to do it correctly.

Honestly, if that is an exterior chimney, code would require a full liner to comply with cross-sectional code.

This is not an attempt to beat you down, but pointing out your installation is not all that safe. too many compromises were made


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## NewtownPA (Oct 11, 2007)

elkimmeg said:
			
		

> Your setup the fact so much cresote fell on top of that stove while cleaning tells you how useless using common fiber glass insulation for a block off plate
> 
> It chunks that big fall threw then what about Carbon monoxide gases and smoke backing up? the flue collar connection is about the worst I have seem Common crimping is 1.5" deep.
> When one see more than an inch that is not a good connection probably leaking like a sieve. Then where are the flue collar screws? to hold that connection in place?
> ...



No problem.

Just letting you know, the PREVIOUS OWNER installed this thing. It came with the house "as is".


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## Burn-1 (Oct 11, 2007)

In addition to what Elk pointed out, it looks like there has been a fair degree of movement in your flue tiles unless they were not flush with each other to begin with. The fairly markedly 'stepped' appearance to the lower tiles might indicate gaps between the tiles.


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## Mike Wilson (Oct 11, 2007)

Okay, basics so that you can go forward.

1- get a full length liner installed in that chimney.  It will give you longer burn times at better temperatures, provide more heat, and give you significantly better performance.  It also makes chimney cleaning much easier, as you only have to clean the liner.  Oh, and its safer.

2- Have a metal block off plate installed.  It is 2 pieces of metal that go around your flue, and seal off the damper.  It will greatly increase your safety in case of a fire, and also increase the heat you get from the insert.  

I would insist on both of these items being done, and do it before this season begins. 

-- Mike


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## elkimmeg (Oct 11, 2007)

Burn-1 said:
			
		

> In addition to what Elk pointed out, it looks like there has been a fair degree of movement in your flue tiles unless they were not flush with each other to begin with. The fairly markedly 'stepped' appearance to the lower tiles might indicate gaps between the tiles.



Unfortunately when building a chimney the flue tile joint mortar remains pliable for quite some time and as one adds additional flues when building a chimney  some movement can occurred on freshly installed lower clay liners  ant cause them to off set  The miss algnment is quite common  But as burn pointed out it can lead to loosing mortar at the joints


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## NewtownPA (Oct 11, 2007)

Mike Wilson said:
			
		

> Okay, basics so that you can go forward.
> 
> 1- get a full length liner installed in that chimney.  It will give you longer burn times at better temperatures, provide more heat, and give you significantly better performance.  It also makes chimney cleaning much easier, as you only have to clean the liner.  Oh, and its safer.
> 
> ...



1. How much would it cost to get a full length liner (I assume Class "A"?)? Total length is about 25 feet.

2. I think I understand the concept of "block off plate" now - but I thought it was only one piece of metal. What is the second piece?

Thanks!


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## NewtownPA (Oct 11, 2007)

If I wanted to get a full length liner, would I have to continue with the oval flex, or would it be better if it was round?

Can I use this Super Flex for lining the masonry chimney?
http://bellfiresusa.com/parts/super_flex.htm






This is what it looks like in real life:


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## elkimmeg (Oct 11, 2007)

I can't say for sure if that 304 product is certified  I did not see a UL listing I also would recommend the liner to be 316 ti

 also when pricing it out at 25' its $625  I think you can get a complete kit including a 25 ft 316ti coil, termination cap ,vent collar, and top plate, for $200 or more less that this price

Others here can point you  to alternative kits they have had success purchasing and installing  We also have a manufactures rep on the forum Magnaflex


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## MrGriz (Oct 11, 2007)

That is definitely not a set up I would want to burn "as is" this winter.  As suggested, I would line the chimney and install a block off plate.  There may be some debate as to whether or not the liner is an absolute necessity or if the direct connect method you have (with the addition of a proper block off plate) would be sufficient.

The full liner will draft better, giving you better stove performance and more efficient use of your wood.  It will also help to direct all flue gasses up and out of the living space.  As you can see now, there is ample opportunity for gasses to back up past the insulation and enter your living space; possibly causing a deadly situation.  The liner will also help to contain a chimney fire in the worst case scenario.

Sealing the liner at the top of the flue and the damper will also help greatly.  This creates  a dead air space and provides a buffer against heat loss up the chimney.  I would bet that in addition to the increase in safety, you will notice better heat output with a block off plate.  The block off also keeps flue gasses from backing up into the living space.  There is a good article in the wiki section on the construction and installation of a block off plate.  It is basically a metal plate that seals the damper opening, around the liner.  It is typically made in two or three pieces and cemented or caulked into place, since it's much easier to do in pieces.  For added insulation, you can use high temperature insulation on top of the plate (not fiberglass insulation).

If you're a DIY'er, you should be able to handle all of this on your own in order to save a few bucks and ensure that the job is done right.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 11, 2007)

We all can give you pieces of the puzzle but I would suggest that you download this copy of the Ranier insert installation and operation manual and step by step follow the installation instructions for the safe and approved installation of the stove just like it was new and to be installed.

http://www.avalonstoves.com/TravisDocs/100-01140.pdf


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## NewtownPA (Oct 11, 2007)

Would a non-insulated liner be fine for me if I am going to line it all the way to the top (since it is inside the masonry chimney)? (sort of like that pic on this page that shows the flex lining)?


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## MrGriz (Oct 11, 2007)

Is your chimney on an exterior wall?

Many people recomend an insulated liner and in some cases it is required (if the integrity of your chimney is compromised).  It can help with draft on exterior chimneys or short runs.

That being said, I have an exterior chimney that is roughly 23' high and the liner in mine is not insulated.  My set up drafts well and I have had no issues.  My chimney was also in sound condition beforre I lined it.

How's that for a non-answer answer  ;-)


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## Mike Wilson (Oct 11, 2007)

NewtownPA said:
			
		

> 1. How much would it cost to get a full length liner (I assume Class "A"?)? Total length is about 25 feet.
> 
> 2. I think I understand the concept of "block off plate" now - but I thought it was only one piece of metal. What is the second piece?
> 
> Thanks!



1- If you are handy and don't mind climbing your roof, and have 1 or 2 like minded friends, you can save a bundle and do it yourself.  Get a liner from e-bay and install that.  You can use regular flex liner, it will work fine, and cost about 400 bucks

2- Its 2 halves of the same plate, the left half, and the right half.  They each have a semicircular cutout on one side to go around the liner that will run past your damper.  

-- Mike


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## NewtownPA (Oct 11, 2007)

MrGriz

Here is a photo of the outside of the house. The chimney goes up the outside of the house at the top and enters the garage. So it's sort of half outside.


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## philaphire (Oct 11, 2007)

for many of us at the end of the day it's an economic decision - what all can you afford and what all can you do on your own?  Mike is right - if you can do it yourself you will save a lot.  Liner kits are around $400 online and insulation another $200.  The 24 gauge sheet metal piece I got at the hardware store to make my block off plate was $1.59.  

One way to look at whether or not to insulate is that whatever you do you will be improving and your current situation and be thankful that no harm was done!


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## NewtownPA (Oct 11, 2007)

Mike Wilson said:
			
		

> NewtownPA said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have been on my roof. I don't like it much, but I've done it several times when I have to. It's finding "like-minded" folks that's the hard part. 

Thanks for explaining the plate. I now understand why it's two pieces.


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## Todd (Oct 11, 2007)

What are the inside dimensions of your flue. It looks like a standard 8"x 12" clay tile which make the inside diameter about 6.5"x 10.5". So it would be difficult to install a liner with insulation. It would probably tare on the way down from morter and offset tiles. I think you'd be fine without insulation, I have an outside chimney and no insulation on my liner, draft is too good sometimes. Another option is to stuff insulation around the top couple feet to help keep the chimney warm.


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## NewtownPA (Oct 11, 2007)

Todd said:
			
		

> What are the inside dimensions of your flue. It looks like a standard 8"x 12" clay tile which make the inside diameter about 6.5"x 10.5". So it would be difficult to install a liner with insulation. It would probably tare on the way down from morter and offset tiles. I think you'd be fine without insulation, I have an outside chimney and no insulation on my liner, draft is too good sometimes. Another option is to stuff insulation around the top couple feet to help keep the chimney warm.



I have not actually measured it. I really need to do that. 

What sort of insulation should I use if I was to put some around the top part? (not fiberglass, right?)


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## philaphire (Oct 11, 2007)

In terms of what sort of insulation, ceramic fiber fireproof insulation runs around $15/foot and that's what you would use - most stove shops carry it.  

HOWEVER, the problem with just "stuffing insulation" at the top is how can you insure that it will stay in place?  Wouldn't it just slide down over time?  Some sort of shelf would have to be in place OR the insulation would need to be attached to the liner via clamps or adhesive - just like you would if you insulated the entire liner....   not saying you should/shouldn't insulate, just wondering how well that would work....


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## woodconvert (Oct 11, 2007)

Lemme start by saying i'm no expert....but for some time i've been putting 20-27 face per year through a Yotul Firelite. I've got a masonry chimney similar to yours (mine looks to be a bit taller). First, no, that wasn't much creosote BUT, when creosote ignites it grows like those old "snake" fireworks. A little bit can choke off a section of your chimney if it catches on fire. Second, the tiles appear fine. All the masonry chimney's i've looked down have the "steps" where it may look like the tiles shifted. Third, your connection from the stove to the chimney would creep me out. I would fix that.

As for the insulated liner...If you burn 24/7 for the season then it's not necessary but if you only burn part time it would be a good idea. A masonry chimney needs to be hot for draft and avoiding creosote problems. If you are burning 24/7 then keeping the chimney hot isn't a problem. When you burn periodically it takes a lot of wood just to heat the chimney and get er' drafting...it would be easier to get a draft going with the liner.


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## NewtownPA (Oct 11, 2007)

woodconvert said:
			
		

> Third, your connection from the stove to the chimney would creep me out. I would fix that.



What can I do to fix that? How would I connect the oval to the round outlet on top of the stove? (I'm a newbie - but I'm "handy" with tools etc.). 

I assume that since they use oval liner there isn't enough space for a full 6" round liner through the damper - how do I overcome this problem? I'd like to have all round liner if possible.

I would like to be burning wood at least 16 - 18 hours a day every day.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 11, 2007)

philaphire said:
			
		

> In terms of what sort of insulation, ceramic fiber fireproof insulation runs around $15/foot and that's what you would use - most stove shops carry it.
> 
> HOWEVER, the problem with just "stuffing insulation" at the top is how can you insure that it will stay in place?  Wouldn't it just slide down over time?  Some sort of shelf would have to be in place OR the insulation would need to be attached to the liner via clamps or adhesive - just like you would if you insulated the entire liner....   not saying you should/shouldn't insulate, just wondering how well that would work....



The top five feet of both of my chimneys are packed with Rockwool insulatation. You use large pieces and pack them in with something like a broom handle and they pack in really tight. I pulled the top plates this year to do some work and the insulation hadn't moved an inch in either one of the flues. The stuff is really dense.

But be sure and wear a mask working with that stuff. It is nothing but zillions of short fibers and you do not want it in your lungs. And you just as well throw the shirt away when you get done.


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## philaphire (Oct 11, 2007)

Newtown, you're going to have to cut the damper to get a round through - many posts on here with different experiences.  Mine was easy with a sawzall.  Brother Bart used a hacksaw.  Others have used angle grinders.  If you buy a liner kit, it will come with a connection that will sit inside the collar - 3 self tapping sheet metal screws in the collar holes and furnance cement to seal the deal and you'll be up and running.


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## philaphire (Oct 11, 2007)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> philaphire said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



thanks for "real world" clarification!


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## Metal (Oct 11, 2007)

I don't know that a liner is absolutely necessary.  If you add a blockoff plate and make sure the connection to the stove is tight you should be okay.  You might also need to look into a hearth extension (per picture on first page).


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## NewtownPA (Oct 11, 2007)

Metal said:
			
		

> and make sure the connection to the stove is tight



Do you think the existing connection is ok as long as it's tight? Is it a concern that the connection sleeve is internal to the outlet instead of external?


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## Metal (Oct 11, 2007)

It just needs to line up straight and be pushed in all the way (so you can't see the crimps).   I believe in an earlier post you said it was at that angle because the stove was pulled out.  If it lines up and inserts all the way when the stove is inserted, you should be okay (you still should add a block off plate though).  A liner would help with creosote buildup, but yours doesn't look that bad to me and it may be caused by other factors (low temp fires, wet wood, etc.).  This is just my opinion, and as you have read, there are plenty of them here, so it will be up to you how you decide to fix it.  You didn't say anything about draft problems though so I take it that is okay.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 11, 2007)

I just hope that we agree that that insulation needs to be pulled out and the creosote that guy probably just brushed down on top of it and the smoke shelf be removed.


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## NewtownPA (Oct 11, 2007)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> I just hope that we agree that that insulation needs to be pulled out and the creosote that guy probably just brushed down on top of it and the smoke shelf be removed.



Correct. They did not remove that insulation during the cleaning process. They brushed the creosote down onto the top of the insulation.

As the old saying goes "If you want something done right, do it yourself." A forum like this with people like you all are much better for my health and safety than those "Professional" cleaners.

I will be researching how to build a block off plate. I think it's very important for the time being.


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## bruce56bb (Oct 11, 2007)

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/making_a_block_off_plate?


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## BrotherBart (Oct 11, 2007)

22 years ago I hired a pair of sweeps with their cute top hats to come out and pull my insert and liner and sweep the chimney. Same experience as yours. I ended up going to town, getting brushes and redoing the job. Done it myself every since then.


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## NewtownPA (Oct 11, 2007)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> 22 years ago I hired a pair of sweeps with their cute top hats to come out and pull my insert and liner and sweep the chimney. Same experience as yours. I ended up going to town, getting brushes and redoing the job. Done it myself every since then.



Well I think 22 years later you are seeing a repeat of history.  

I'm determined to have a SAFE and HAPPY home.


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## Metal (Oct 11, 2007)

Be prepared, when you pull that insulation out you might find a few more surprises : )  Don't forget to take pictures.


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## theheatelement (Oct 11, 2007)

Depending on what state you live in, you can technically run a piece of 5 foot oval pipe and be done with it.... I would highly advise against it... the insulation part.. that's a different story... some say it's great other's say it doesn't matter.... I say your putting a rust resistant product in an area prone to water and your going to eventually end up with an insulated wet matter.  What I would probably do in your situation is run a piece of ovalized to round flex from your insert to your cap...   You'll have better draft and a safer fireplace.... let me know if you have any questions... others that have chimed in have added valuable insight as well...


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## WILDSOURDOUGH (Oct 12, 2007)

'Chain Whip' your chimney 
NEVER-NEVER let that company near your chimney again !
They will probably crack and damage your liner (big bucks) and charge you 400.00 bucks for their pleasure.
Might not even tell you that they broke it. It is only clay tile you know- can be scrubbed with a wire brush but it has never done anything to warrent a 'Chain Wipping'- It is just plain stupid.

Looks clean, for safety you might want to consider a liner and new thimble connection, cap looks good from here.
Best o Luck
(sorry for yelling, NEVER-NEVER, but I still mean it.)


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## Hogwildz (Oct 12, 2007)

My uncle chain whips his chimney every year. No problems there so far.
I'd still recommend the liner though.


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## sweeper (Oct 12, 2007)

Ichain whip or cable whip problem flues everyday for around 99.00. Been doing this for many many years and have never damaged or used this as a reline tactic ever. Please remember all sweeps are not out to get you...  Some of us actually enjoy making people safe.


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## NewtownPA (Oct 12, 2007)

More pics of the CURRENT situation.


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## NewtownPA (Oct 12, 2007)

More pics of the CURRENT situation.
#2


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## NewtownPA (Oct 12, 2007)

More pics of the CURRENT situation.
#3


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## NewtownPA (Oct 12, 2007)

More pics of the CURRENT situation.

#4


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## NewtownPA (Oct 12, 2007)

More pics of the CURRENT situation.

#5


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## NewtownPA (Oct 12, 2007)

It looks like I don't have much obstruction from the damper. Then again this is the first fireplace I've ever looked at in detail. Am I right?

-Nathan


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## NewtownPA (Oct 12, 2007)

Pic #6 Detail.


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## Gooserider (Oct 12, 2007)

What do the pipes in the pictures do?  They seem like something strange that I haven't heard of in a chimney before...

Looks like you might be able to get a round liner through the damper, or you might have to cut it, not sure.  

Given that your current chimney looks like it meets code standards for fire safety - it has clay tiles that appear to be in good condition, etc. I would say that you don't need the insulation from the standpoint of fire protection.  The liner will basically improve your cross sectional area situation (which might be a code requirement depending on just what size the existing tiles are)  It would probably improve your draft but the difference might not be needed / worth the extra cost.

One option that some folks do when they can't fit an insulated liner down, is to make sure they have a really good block off plate install, then pour the area around the liner full of vermiculite.  This works very nicely, but it can get REALLY messy if anything disturbs the blockoff plate.

Gooserider


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## BrotherBart (Oct 12, 2007)

No problem getting anything through that damper. They opened that sucker up big-time. The pipes are in there to support the oval section of flex so it doesn't slide back down into the fireplace.

Everybody has an opinion but here is mine.  Properly connected to the top of the stove and with a good sealed block off plate you can probably burn the stove just fine. BUT, now that you have the chimney pretty clean and the stove disconnected etc., etc. for $400 bucks you can now get a chimney liner kit from one of the guys on eBay and do top notch full reline. It will take the liner two or three days to get there and you can line that pup in a days time. 

At that point you have a nice safe installation that will get more mileage out of your wood, let you sleep better at night and be a no brainer to clean every season with no disconnecting anything to clean it. Given that half or more of the chimney is sandwiched between the house and the garage I would just pack insulation in the top five or six feet. Those are 8X12 tiles and an insulation blanket and liner ain't going down it no way no how. In fact getting a 6" liner down it is going to be a groan so I would go with a 5.5 inch liner kit. When you order it you would need to tell them to ship it with a "appliance adapter" in place of a tee.

Put in the liner, install a block off plate and paint the top of that stove and you are done for a long, long time. Don't do it and you will be going through this drill at least once a year from here on until you get tired of it and line it anyway. And liner kit prices go up every year in the interim.

Right, wrong or sideways that is the way I would do it. That is the way I did do it. With both flues.


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## NewtownPA (Oct 12, 2007)

I was up there this morning and took some measurements:

*Chimney INNER measurements: 6.5" X 11"
Chimney OUTER measurements: 8" X 12.5"*

I know for a fact that the inner clay tiles do NOT line up perfectly so that 6.5" would more likely be 6" so I think BrotherBart is right about getting a 5.5" diameter liner. Is that going to affect the drag going from 6" to 5.5"? Do all kits come with adapters from the smaller 5.5" to 6" or do I need to specify this?

- Does anybody know if I can feed the liner up from the bottom, or does it need to go down from the top? (I really don't like heights on an incline but I'll do it ONCE if I absolutely have to.)

_If anyone is interested in helping out I'd be more than happy to accept some assistance! _ Hogwildz has already offered!

-Nathan


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## BrotherBart (Oct 12, 2007)

Yeah you are in 5.5 territory. The six inches is the inside diameter of the liner with the outside being 6 1/4" territory so you would end up having to "ovalize" (read: mash) it to get it in. A 5.5 is going to draft just as well or better than a mashed up 6".

Get the full kit with cap, top plate and appliance adapter. It will be cheaper than buying an appliance adapter and a length of flex. It will come with a top plate to seal the top of the chimney and the liner will pass through that and the cap will attach either to the liner or the top plate collar which will act as a rain shield to keep water out of the chimney. Tell the liner peddler that the adapter has to be 5.5 to 6.

You can feed it up from the bottom but it is kinder to the thin metal of the liner to feed it from the top. If Hogwildz is there he will zip up there and feed it down to you. I think he is really Tarzan incognito.


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## NewtownPA (Oct 12, 2007)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Yeah you are in 5.5 territory. The six inches is the inside diameter of the liner with the outside being 6 1/4" territory so you would end up having to "ovalize" (read: mash) it to get it in. A 5.5 is going to draft just as well or better than a mashed up 6".
> 
> Get the full kit with cap, top plate and appliance adapter. It will be cheaper than buying an appliance adapter and a length of flex. It will come with a top plate to seal the top of the chimney and the liner will pass through that and the cap will attach either to the liner or the top plate collar which will act as a rain shield to keep water out of the chimney. Tell the liner peddler that the adapter has to be 5.5 to 6.
> 
> You can feed it up from the bottom but it is kinder to the thin metal of the liner to feed it from the top. If Hogwildz is there he will zip up there and feed it down to you. I think he is really Tarzan incognito.



Thank you BrotherBart for all your suggestions! 

Ok, so is Rockford a good place to buy the liner kit from? They seem to have a good price $425 for 25feet 5.5" kit.
http://chimneylinerinc.com/red_chimney.htm


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## Dunadan (Oct 12, 2007)

The 2 pics that have me curious are the most recent one you posted of the flue collar connection, and the original one.

Does that liner come down and fit easily into the top of your insert?

In your original picture, it looked like it wasn't in all the way, and I believe you said it had pulled out.

In the most recent picture, where you show the pipe out of the collar, it looks to me like the angle is wrong (i.e. the hole in the stove isn't far enough back for the pipe to insert easily).  

Am I reading too much into your picture?  Or is the alignment slightly off?

I ask because when my insert was installed, the installer ran into the same problem.  The round liner couldn't bend enough after it came into the firebox to match up to my flue hole.  Instead of bending the liner, an offset box needed to be installed.

If you do have this problem, you may need to plan to correct it.


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## NewtownPA (Oct 12, 2007)

I don't need the "T" that comes with kits, right? I'm just going to run the liner straight up from the top of the stove up up up and end at the top of the chimney. Pretty simple.

The appliance adapter should NOT be the crimped kind that I have right?


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## NewtownPA (Oct 12, 2007)

Dunadan said:
			
		

> The 2 pics that have me curious are the most recent one you posted of the flue collar connection, and the original one.
> 
> Does that liner come down and fit easily into the top of your insert?
> 
> ...



Yes the flue collar connection with the crimps is very hard to get to fit right. I'm not happy with it either - just another reason to go with the full liner and all new connections.


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## Dunadan (Oct 12, 2007)

Not sure if that question was in regard to my post of just a general question.

If it was for me, no I don't think you need a T.  What you need to determine is if a round liner (inserted properly into your stove) will be able to "bend" in a way to make it up through your damper area.  The fact that you now have an oval liner makes me wonder if that was used because a round liner wouldn't make it up into the chimney.

Again, this is what happened in our case and the installer needed to cut away some of the masonry to allow the liner to get up into the chimney.  Even doing this, I needed the offset box.  The installer didn't know I'd need it until the very end of the installation, so you may not be able to tell until you get to that point.  On the other hand, you may be able to since you already have a liner of sorts that you can play around with.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 12, 2007)

Dunadan it looks like he has plenty of room to "bend" a single ply liner with the big space through the former home of the damper frame.

Lots of people seem to have had good luck getting kits from Brian at Rockford. I ordered a specific piece from him and he sent something else so I am done with him. He now appears to be selling the Forever Flex kit from Olympia Chimney Supply that has that stupid pyramid shaped top plate that won't work on your chimney without you smashing out the top flue tile. If he will substitute a flat top plate it should be fine.

Be sure you get good measurements on length and get a liner with a few feet to spare.

The guy on here from Magnaflex talks about getting good deals for Forum members but the week he signed on I was looking for a new kit to replace one of mine and all he did was steer me to an overpriced, don't wanna deal with no stinkin DIY, 45 mile away yuppie fireplace shop so I bought a Simpson DuraFlex kit from the fine folks at Hart's Hearth and had it on the front porch in exactly 19 hours.

EDIT: My bet is that they went with the oval flex because that is what would fit into the rectangular flue tiles.


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## NewtownPA (Oct 12, 2007)

Dunadan said:
			
		

> Not sure if that question was in regard to my post of just a general question.
> 
> If it was for me, no I don't think you need a T.  What you need to determine is if a round liner (inserted properly into your stove) will be able to "bend" in a way to make it up through your damper area.  The fact that you now have an oval liner makes me wonder if that was used because a round liner wouldn't make it up into the chimney.
> 
> Again, this is what happened in our case and the installer needed to cut away some of the masonry to allow the liner to get up into the chimney.  Even doing this, I needed the offset box.  The installer didn't know I'd need it until the very end of the installation, so you may not be able to tell until you get to that point.  On the other hand, you may be able to since you already have a liner of sorts that you can play around with.



Was just a general question but thanks for answering 

The damper area is pretty well clear. Actually I was surprised how much of the damper they cut away so I'm positive that a round liner will work.

I understand what you mean about the offset box. I don't think I'll need one if the liner is flexible (the oval liner that I have isn't very flexible at all from side-to-side -  I think it has to do with the oval shape itself.


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## Dunadan (Oct 12, 2007)

> I don’t think I’ll need one if the liner is flexible.



I have a flexible liner, which is a bit of a misnomer. 

Yes, it's flexible, but in the sense that it will bend over a span of several feet, at moderate angles.

No chance of making a sharp turns, at least with the flex liner I had, which in my case is what was needed to make the connection without offset box.


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## NewtownPA (Oct 12, 2007)

Dunadan said:
			
		

> > I don’t think I’ll need one if the liner is flexible.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well I hope I won't need one - but I'll cross that bridge if I get to it.  Thanks for the heads up though.


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## philaphire (Oct 12, 2007)

Newtown - I bought from Rockford and didn't have an issue.  They only have one type of appliance connector which slipped right into my Rainer's collar - just be sure to tell them you need an appliance connector and not a tee.  The "pyramid" top plate also worked fine on my 8 x 12 tile it's just that the long sides will require more caulk, while the short sides line up and seal fine.  For an additional $50 or something they do sell a top plate that is flat designed to fit on top of the rectangular terra cotta if you wanted to go that route.  Also, they sell either .005 and .006 and their default is .006 so ask them for .005 to get the "maximum flexibility."  Read flexible as: if you pull on it hard enough, it will bend!  I ordered the .006 and had to get it to bend a little to go into my 45* flue collar.  It literally was a matter of muscle and took a couple pulls.  Re: if you damper is big enough, If you can get up to the damper, you can measure the opening OR you can get 6 inch round duct from Home Depot and see if that will fit, I believe Hogwildz did that when he did his.  Best wishes!


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## theheatelement (Oct 13, 2007)

If I can be of any help let me know.. we do offer a 6 inch kit that is ovalized in the last 5 feet to fit your application let me know.. we offer the kit that will take the oval to round piece as well...and will be much less then the rockford kit... again...let me know..this is direct from the manufacture...


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## struggle (Oct 13, 2007)

Here is something I had to deal with on my 5.5 liner. Since I had no provision to use a tee as I was lining an existing clay tile chimney that had to aproximate 45 deg. turns and exited out a concrete wall into the house. So When the liner was dropped down and pushed the first turn and pulled and pushed through the second  turn I had a5.5" liner just coming out of the tile passing through a brick facia into the room. 

My problem was I wanted to attach a 6" stainless steel sleeve to the liner and then 90 degree black 22 guage seemless pipe into a straight section into the stove. My problem was the stuff that came with my kit was set for the tee conection and I had no way of having the proper sleeve with what I had from the kit. Sooo I had my neighbor machine shop owner make me a heavy guaged sleeve of stainless welded seem to make the connection from the 5.5 liner well into the first clay tile and to be able to just fit into the 90 degree black pipe. IT works great. So I then cemented the sleeve into the clay tile with 2" of cement all the way around and then same guy made a block off plate of as an extra measure to cover the cemented thimble area and then I tap con screwed it into the brick area. 

A standard 6" pipe will slide over a 5.5 liner. so you will need to transition with one side crimp on a sleeve that can then adapt to your oval connection into your stove. To maintain the male to female connection all the way into the stove so no creosote can drain outside of the fittings. 

You will have no problems the way I see it getting a 5.5 liner in. I went from a vertical chimney exiting to a horizontal exit and while the last 18" where the worst to pull through you have a pretty much straight drop. My chimney had an inside diameter less then you have and I made two 45 degree turns.   You can always taper the liner in a little on the end so it will not catch on the tile ledges. 

Keep in mind I got my liner installed past the first 45 degree turn all by myself and had the help of a neighbor to pull it the last 18".

The way I see your biggest challenge is making sure you get a proper block off plate built for a proper airtight seal. It seems like all cake to me.

Oh and I had no problem sealing my olyimpa cap to my existing exiting tile like someone else said wouldn't work for them. I used some type of polyurathane stuff and set it on that and the tightened the clamp and trimed the liner and then clamped the cover on. 

I also found that I am able to at the end of the burn season after brushing the liner able to slip a 6" stainless cap over the liner and reinstall the cap back on and then there is no smokey odor from down draft on the chimney in the summer time or birds making nest in the liner/cap.


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## cogger (Oct 13, 2007)

NewtownPA said:
			
		

> *The PREVIOUS OWNER installed everything you see on this page. The woodstove and setup came "as is" when I bought the house.*
> 
> 
> Ok tell me if I have a lot of creosote? I Photoshopped the image to brighten it since it was so DARK down there!
> ...



Burn hot, you'll never have a chimney fire. But then again this depends on your climate. $400?? I think he's been sniffing soot too long


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