# Are we fooling ourselves about the whole "green " thing?



## Seasoned Oak (Oct 28, 2010)

Im into the green thing,but not to "save the planet". mostly cuz its usually cost less than the old wasteful methods,and cuz im a fiercely independent sort,a self reliant type.
Just when we think were making a huge impact on energy and resource consumption those sobering numbers pop up on the news.
According to the news we are adding 80 million new faces to the planet each and every year. About 5 million to the US alone(depending on the source)mostly from immigration legal and otherwise.
You could repopulate the entire US in just 4 years. 80 million people require a tremendous amount of energy(depending on where they are born and live).They need housing ,food, clean water,and the land to produce all that is becoming scarce. Our efforts to conserve are like a drop of water fighting a tsunami of new consumers every year.
So whats  the solution? I don't have the foggiest idea.


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## Highbeam (Oct 28, 2010)

You're right. Population growth is a worldwide problem. The best we can do is use our resources effectively to extend their supply as long as possible and then...... 

I have one sibling. I have only two children. My three generations have not increased the population so is that being "green"?


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## Flatbedford (Oct 28, 2010)

I have not personally increased the population. Does that mean I can drive my 7 mpg 40 year old and 10 mpg, V10 powered trucks more?


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## Delta-T (Oct 28, 2010)

Flatbedford said:
			
		

> I have not personally increased the population. Does that mean I can drive my 7 mpg 40 year old and 10 mpg, V10 powered trucks more?



yes, and if you pick up hitchhikers (call it car pooling) you are doubly green....may want to change your avatar to look like Al Gore.


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## midwestcoast (Oct 28, 2010)

Population growth is a huge sustainability problem. Some would say it's the biggest & a few would say the ONLY problem.  Luckily this is one area where there's some good news. Birth rates worldwide are dropping & have been for some time.  Much of the developed world is already at below-replacement birth rates & is soaking-up population from developing countries.  While the U.S. is not close to that yet, we did have the fewest babies born in a very long while last year.
Many of the poorest countries still have ballooning populations, but that situation is changing fast as NGOs & Gov'ts have been working hard to provide education to women & girls, as well as basic healthcare to slash infant mortality, and it's actually been working. The conventional wisdom is that world population is now on course to stabilize.  Exactly when & at what # it will stabilize is still crucial & unknown though. 
I think most enviro groups don't like to talk much about population because they don't want to give their opponents any opportunity to link them with repressive or coercive policies like Chinas 1 Child policy...
Most do acknowledge that there is a finite carrying capacity of humans on this planet no-matter whether those humans are car-less, vegan, organic farmers or what . 
I think how many kids people have does matter from a sustainability standpoint, and that is a major factor in my & my wifes own decisions, but I'm sure not gonna try to tell someone not to have a kid(s), just as I would not take kindly to anyone trying to tell me whether or how many to have...
I think it is a topic that deserves more discussion than it gets & that the discussion needs to be civil, respectful & open-minded in order to get anywhere.


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## semipro (Oct 28, 2010)

Unless I'm missing something if every couple that wanted or was able to have kids only had two of them we'd have a negative population growth.     

Somehow that just doesn't seem like a big sacrifice to me.


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## Highbeam (Oct 28, 2010)

If every couple only had two then population growth would be zero. A wash. If that steady population also reduced consumption then you are making steps towards sustainability.


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 29, 2010)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> You're right. Population growth is a worldwide problem. The best we can do is use our resources effectively to extend their supply as long as possible and then......
> 
> I have one sibling. I have only two children. My three generations have not increased the population so is that being "green"?



Thats probably the greenest thing any one can do but if US policies(on immigration and enforcement) dont change were still be buried in a sea of other countries overpopulation growth  
From what iv read population in the US already would be declining slightly except for Immigration both legal and illegal which is providing  100% of the growth. Latinos alone are responsible for over half the
growth(according to wikipedia). I think the Govt wants it that way or they would enforce the laws, guess they think we can grow our way to prosperity. Problem is so many destitute people flooding into the country the only thing growing will be the need for govt services and more infrastructure when the existing Inf is already crumbling.


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## ckarotka (Oct 29, 2010)

I'm out, got three kids now and one on the way, I'm sure my face could be on a wanted poster or something for screwing things up. We wanted a big family, but we buy only what we need, buy tons of stuff second hand. This will be our first xmas where the bigger gifts are all second hand.

Good news is, I will probably die before my life expectancy from the stress of four kids, so that helps a little.


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## PastTense (Oct 29, 2010)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> If every couple only had two then population growth would be zero. A wash. If that steady population also reduced consumption then you are making steps towards sustainability.



No, because there is a part of the population which never couples.


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## semipro (Oct 29, 2010)

Its an extremely fortunate set of circumstances that allows life to survive on earth given how hostile the universe actually is.  Earth is a unique sanctuary.  

Unfortunately, I think its unlikely that humans will be smart enough to limit their population to the point where the sustainability of human civilization is assured.  I think we'll keep populating and exploiting to the point where the quality of life decreases greatly and there won't be enough timely technology to save us from ourselves.  Overcrowding will result in a violent and low quality society with severe consequences for the rest of earth's inhabitants.  In the end though, life on earth will probably prevail, whether humans are there to enjoy it our not.  

That's why I feel that those that are trying to Save the Planet, Save the Whales, Protect the Spotted Owl, Stop Over-foresting, and so forth should be sporting bumper stickers that instead say "Save the World...for Humans".


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## jharkin (Oct 29, 2010)

There have been a lot of studies that suggest we are already beyond the"natural" carrying capacity of the earth (without external energy input).  I don't know the figure, but I think its somewhere between 1 and 2 billion, the number of humans that can be fed with purely organic farming methods and no mechanization.

Today we support the extra 4-5 billion beyond that based off the industrialization of farming -  fossil fuels to run the machines, and oil and natural gas derived fertilizers and pesticides to increase the fertility of the soil.


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## btuser (Oct 29, 2010)

We've got one kid and one fur-baby.  The dog has a party to go to tomorrow.  We all have to dress up.   I blame my wife.  There had better be alcohol.

My truck is a big, stinky (or so-called), school-bus sized vehicle that is completely larger than my current needs.  My wife's eco-expert friend suggested that the responsible thing for me to do was to go for cash-for-clunkers, because obviously her Lexus SUV hybrid was just awesome!   She's the kind of person who drinks bottled water and buys ANYTHING with the words organic on the cover.  $20 bottles of natural cleaners, composite decking that's "the right thing to do"  because its saving all that wood and re-using all those plastic drinking bottles.  

I tried explaining that my truck was:

1.) Diesel, and I ran B20 on a monthly basis.
2.) A salvage vehicle, so not only did I re-use and keep it out of the landfill, I kept a factory from making another car.
3.) I haven't had a car payment for the 6 years I've owned it, and the extra $45,000 I would have to make to pay for it would do untold damage to the enviroment.   
4.) I need a truck. 

Her response was:  "Yeah, but a new one wouldn't stink up my driveway".


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## Dune (Oct 29, 2010)

trump said:
			
		

> Im into the green thing,but not to "save the planet". mostly cuz its usually cost less than the old wasteful methods,and cuz im a fiercely independent sort,a self reliant type.
> Just when we think were making a huge impact on energy and resource consumption those sobering numbers pop up on the news.
> According to the news we are adding 80 million new faces to the planet each and every year. About 5 million to the US alone(depending on the source)mostly from immigration legal and otherwise.
> You could repopulate the entire US in just 4 years. 80 million people require a tremendous amount of energy(depending on where they are born and live).They need housing ,food, clean water,and the land to produce all that is becoming scarce. Our efforts to conserve are like a drop of water fighting a tsunami of new consumers every year.
> So whats  the solution? I don't have the foggiest idea.



First of all, why don't you care about the planet? You do live here.

Where did you get the idea we are "making a huge impact on energy and resource consumtion" ? We have barely begun to make the efforts needed. You still burn coal, what kind of effort is that? There is no dirtier fuel.

Sorry to hear overpopulation is news to you. You may want to try to be better informed.

The solution is clear and obvious. We must implement every possible solution, ASAP not wait for the silver bullet.

Instead of whining about how hopeless it is, be more proactive.


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## semipro (Oct 29, 2010)

I know of intelligent people (e.g., advanced degrees etc.) who believe that the earth's population is decreasing.  They misunderstood that the "growth rate" was decreasing meant that the population was decreasing; not the same thing.  The world's population is still growing fast, just not as fast as it was previously.


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## btuser (Oct 29, 2010)

Here's the best response BAR NONE to the enviromentalist movement:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eScDfYzMEEw


When I started looking into renewable resources, veggie fuel, solar, basically everything, I had a much different attitude.  I was a lot more hopefull.  I burn wood from my own land, without the cost of transportation, processsing, marketing, storage, insurance, profit and taxes of a 3rd party and still I couldn't do it without fossil fuels.   Oil is indeed our god that we have yet to wound let alone kill.


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## Dune (Oct 29, 2010)

btuser said:
			
		

> Here's the best response BAR NONE to the enviromentalist movement:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eScDfYzMEEw
> 
> 
> When I started looking into renewable resources, veggie fuel, solar, basically everything, I had a much different attitude.  I was a lot more hopefull.  I burn wood from my own land, without the cost of transportation, processsing, marketing, storage, insurance, profit and taxes of a 3rd party and still I couldn't do it without fossil fuels.   Oil is indeed our god that we have yet to wound let alone kill.



Yep, to a dog, a retarded human is a genius.


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## Flatbedford (Oct 29, 2010)

Carlin was a genius.


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## semipro (Oct 29, 2010)

btuser said:
			
		

> Here's the best response BAR NONE to the enviromentalist movement:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eScDfYzMEEw
> 
> 
> When I started looking into renewable resources, veggie fuel, solar, basically everything, I had a much different attitude.  I was a lot more hopefull.  I burn wood from my own land, without the cost of transportation, processsing, marketing, storage, insurance, profit and taxes of a 3rd party and still I couldn't do it without fossil fuels.   Oil is indeed our god that we have yet to wound let alone kill.



Carlin is right on.  I disagree with his take on peoples motives. that's too cynical even for me, but the rest of what he says is right on. 

Thanks for posting that I've never seen it.


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 29, 2010)

Dune said:
			
		

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ITs not the planet thats in danger, the planet will be here when we are gone. Im making a huge impact on energy and resources ,50 % of my heating is done with waste wood ,the other 50% is a domestically produced fuel that for now allows me to replace 100% of the oil i used to buy. Iv cut my transportation fuel in half another 50%  How many americans are using 50% renewable energy and 50% less gas than they used to?Do you ? Iv been watching the overpopulation debate come and go since the 80s, im just bringing it up for discussion now.Im a news junkie also so i think im well informed.
Your making my point as far as a solution,there is no clear and obvious solution if the population keep increasing,no amount of "conserving" on your part will make up for the tsunami of new earthlings on the assembly lines.For the US its rather simple since 100% of our population growth comes from immigration legal and illegal thats our silver bullet,if we ever get leaders who will enforece our laws we may have a chance.For the developing world perhaps YOU have a solution, Be proactive, maybe you can tell them to stop having so many kids they cant support. If im whining then everyone here who brings up an energy related topic for discussion is also whining. I respect everyones opinion here ,even those i dont agree with,you should try it sometime.


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 29, 2010)

ckarotka said:
			
		

> I'm out, got three kids now and one on the way, I'm sure my face could be on a wanted poster or something for screwing things up. We wanted a big family, but we buy only what we need, buy tons of stuff second hand. This will be our first xmas where the bigger gifts are all second hand.
> 
> Good news is, I will probably die before my life expectancy from the stress of four kids, so that helps a little.



Dont fret ckarotka  THe US population would actually be in decline were it not for massive immigration driving the numbers, so as a demographic native born americans are NOT contributing to the population increase.


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## webbie (Oct 29, 2010)

trump said:
			
		

> Im into the green thing,but not to "save the planet". mostly cuz its usually cost less than the old wasteful methods,and cuz im a fiercely independent sort,a self reliant type.
> Just when we think were making a huge impact on energy and resource consumption those sobering numbers pop up on the news.
> According to the news we are adding 80 million new faces to the planet each and every year. About 5 million to the US alone(depending on the source)mostly from immigration legal and otherwise..



The "green thing" must be looked at on both a worldwide basis and a local, regional and national basis. This is very easy to see - because we in the USA are directly responsible for much of the pollution and industrialization of the rest of the world. The old quote, which has probably changed, was that we are "5% of the worlds population, using 25% of the worlds resources"....

It's not hard to see that can't work out - especially now when the rest of the world can clearly see what is/was going on (wars for resources, them working hard and not seeing all the results, etc.)......

In the long long run, none of it matters at all. We will each pass away and eventually the sun will die. We are all doomed.

At the same time, many of the problems we face daily - from cancer, to heart disease, to destruction of the environment, etc.  are directly related to our lack of wise use of resources. 

I have great respect for those who can singularly cut their energy use - however, everything I have seen which approaches the subject on a deeper level says that most of the change will come from above....no, not heaven, from from the Big Picture of engineering, government, politics, invention, etc. 

As an example, each of us in the US uses a vast amount of energy for the common things...like the military, etc.

Food is another big issue - our "mistake" of eating both fast and processed foods is directly responsible for vast energy use. 

The future is always hard to see. If I had to guess, I think that it will be multi-pronged, with hyper-local economies taking hold in many places, but at the same time having vast engineering accomplishments in transportation, energy production, etc.

Despite the rhetoric, lifestyle will not suffer....in fact, I think it will improve.


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## midwestcoast (Oct 29, 2010)

trump said:
			
		

> ckarotka said:
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> For the US its rather simple since 100% of our population growth comes from immigration legal and illegal thats our silver bullet,if we ever get leaders who will enforece our laws we may have a chance.For the developing world perhaps YOU have a solution, Be proactive, maybe you can tell them to stop having so many kids they cant support.



ckarotka,  as far as I've seen no-one here has suggested that you should be anything other than proud of your children. It seems like whenever someone brings up overpopulation there is an assumption by those who have/had/want to have kids that others are looking down on them or viewing them as the problem. I just don't see that being true. Let's just pretend that nearly everyone stopped having kids next year. What would happen? Complete and utter economic collapse. Not just a bad recession, not another Great Depression... more like another freaking dark ages. As well as it'd be a pretty boring damned life with no kids around to lighten things up...

trump, can you cite some sources for your statements above? The reason I ask is that from what I've read you're wrong and anytime someone says that native born americans... are not the problem, but someone else is, I smell ignorance,xenophobia or prejudice.  Immigration contributes a significant amount to U.S. pop'n growth, but nowhere near 100%.  Data for U.S. from CDC for 2007 (most recent):
Number of births: 4,317,119 
Birth rate: 14.3 per 1,000 population (1,430/100,000)
Number of deaths: 2,423,712 
Death rate: 803.6 deaths per 100,000 population 
The birth rate dropped to around 13 per 1000 last year, but still way above replacement level.  
Also, if the discussion is about world population growth, then immigration can't contribute at all since it's just moving people around.

Anyway all this points to the big, ugly elephant in the room. That is that our entire economic system is based on growth. Growth of consumption and population. That is why the U.S. lets in millions of immigrants. We need more people every year. We just don't have a woking model of how to prosper or keep our current quality of life without constant growth.  It's even true at a local level; just look at any town, city or county in the country that is steadily loosing population and you will see poverty and decay. There aren't jobs, real estate prices plummet, tax-bases shrink, services are cut, infrastructure begins to break-down & fall apart.  Now expand that scenerio across the county & the globe and we get an ugly picture of what will happen if we can't find a way to support our economy & way of life without growth.  I do think we'll manage it, probably after way too much delay & some false-starts, but I think we'll get there & I'm curious to see what we'll base our economy on after the end of constant growth.


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## midwestcoast (Oct 29, 2010)

trump said:
			
		

> For the developing world perhaps YOU have a solution, Be proactive, maybe you can tell them to stop having so many kids they cant support.



There are many who are being proactive and have been for many years.  Educating girls and women empowers them to make their own decisions about fertility. Shockingly their decisions more often than not are not to go through half a dozen or more pregnancies & births with marginal healthcare.  Improving basic healthcare during pregnancy & birth drastically reduces infant mortatlity aqnd that reduces birth rates because people don't have additional children when they aren't seeing babies die all the time.
Oh and I would pay to see you travel around a developing country"telling them" how "they" should live.


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 29, 2010)

Webmaster said:
			
		

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Exactly, Thats why its important for the US to maintain a stable population. WHen that quote was made i believe we were at 200 million,now were over 300M. If we were using 25% at 200 million how much of the world resources will we use at 400M and so on. We have more middle class people here with a higher standard of living than many countries. Drastically cutting my use of resources was relatively easy for me,getting every other american to do it will not be so easy, and i dont see any scenario were we will be maintaining a stable population with the current levels of both legal and illegal immigration. Im not anti-immigrant hell im married to one.


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 29, 2010)

midwestcoast

As far as the developing world i do not pretend to have a solution to their population problem i was being sarcastic to Dune for criticizing me just for bringing up the subject.
 Your suggestion about family planning and education is probably all we or anyone can can do for developing countries to turn it around.  
My source is the US census report and Wikipedia,who states without a doubt more than 100% of the US population growth comes from immigration cuz without it our population would actually be declining.
My reason for bringing up the subject is that it has such a big impact on energy consumption and the whole green thing. Not to point fingers or suggest we should tell people how many kids to have. Without at least discussing it we probably are just fooling ourselves if we think we can solve our energy and resource problems with a little conservation here and there.


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## Dune (Oct 29, 2010)

trump said:
			
		

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## kenny chaos (Oct 29, 2010)

trump said:
			
		

> Im into the green thing,but not to "save the planet". mostly cuz its usually cost less than the old wasteful methods,and cuz im a fiercely independent sort,a self reliant type.
> Just when we think were making a huge impact on energy and resource consumption those sobering numbers pop up on the news.
> According to the news we are adding 80 million new faces to the planet each and every year. About 5 million to the US alone(depending on the source)mostly from immigration legal and otherwise.
> You could repopulate the entire US in just 4 years. 80 million people require a tremendous amount of energy(depending on where they are born and live).They need housing ,food, clean water,and the land to produce all that is becoming scarce. Our efforts to conserve are like a drop of water fighting a tsunami of new consumers every year.
> So whats  the solution? I don't have the foggiest idea.






That's a very broad and general comment and question but on the over population thing; I don't buy into it.
I've seen the "population explosion" come up on occasion over many years and then replaced with major health concerns, immigration, war, or one of many other history repeating "serious issues of the day."  For some reason, all various issues seem to be popping up together at the moment.
A short drive through most countrysides would show we are a land rich planet and a look at any globe shows we have even more land in water.
I've spent mornings picking only the best cukes off the vine for market and then in the afternoon at the packing house, where at least half and sometimes more, go in the reject line.  They may be a tad large, a tad small, a tad off color or not evenly colored, and they're not good enough for the big produce buyers.  Much more food is left to rot or destroyed than is ever made available.
Besides, we have our own conspiracies for controlling the population with things like McDonald's, tobacco, sugar, war, cancer, aides, etc..
The solution?  Don't worry about it.  Do the best you can with what you've got and find the attitude of gratitude.


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 29, 2010)

Dune said:
			
		

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## Dune (Oct 29, 2010)

Exactly. We disagree. I get it. Do you?


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## midwestcoast (Oct 30, 2010)

trump said:
			
		

> midwestcoast
> 
> As far as the developing world i do not pretend to have a solution to their population problem i was being sarcastic to Dune for criticizing me just for bringing up the subject.
> Your suggestion about family planning and education is probably all we or anyone can can do for developing countries to turn it around.
> ...



trump, my apologies. I miss-construed your sarcasm for dismissivness of people in developing countries & their life choices.  
I looked further into U.S. birth rates & found tha the #'s I've seen and that are most reported in the news are the "crude birth rates" & not as good an indicator of future population growth/decline as the total fertility rate is.  The crude birth rate fluctuate greatly when demographic "bulges" like the baby boom... move in and out of childbearing age. According to the CIA world factbook the current U.S total fertility rate is 2.06 where a rate of 2.0 indicates 0 growth. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html   digging down further reveals that the 2.0 replacement rate is also more of an extrapolation rather than an absolute or direct calculation, and it's different for every country every year... based on mortality rates.  So it's safe to say the U.S. rate is very close, one side or the other of replacement rate. That means the trend is toward an end of growth, but not that we've stopped growing through births yet. Births-deaths each year measures that,  
I am in total agreement that it is a topic worth well more discussion than it gets.  I'd just re-iterate though that this is one sustainability problem which is steadily being solved. There's plenty of good news, from below replacement fertility in the E.U, Japan & most other developed countries, to rapidly falling rates in developing nations.
  That doesn't mean we can pat ourselves on the back for stabilizing population. It hasn't happened yet and I believe it makes a very big difference whether we stabilize at 8, 9 or 10 billion, and then whether we hold steady or decline.  
No-matter when & where we stabilize population though, it won't matter one bit if we don't curb our ballooning Consumption Growth Rate.  We really have not even bagun down the road to tackling that, so no, I don't think we're fooling ourselves about the whole green thing. That is so long as we understand that "the whole green thing" is actually an urgent attempt to figure out how to survive as a society & prosper as a species.


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## jharkin (Oct 30, 2010)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Despite the rhetoric, lifestyle will not suffer....in fact, I think it will improve.



I wish I were as optimistic Craig. I used to be, used to think we would engineer our way out of the mess but the older I get the less I believe it.

It just seems that the solution to any one problem makes the others worse.  Most of whats good for the economy is bad for the environment or resource depletion rates. Whats good for the environment is bad for jobs.  And whats good for big business is bad for us all.

Oh and then there is that pesky 13 trillion dollars of debt


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## btuser (Oct 30, 2010)

Here in America we have a great standard of living.  The problem for me (and just maybe others as well) was for a long time I was confusing standard of living as being the same thing as quality of life.  I was working 80-100 hrs week, neglecting my family and friends, hating was I was doing but all the time measuring my success by paychecks and toys.  I didn't have an epiphany, or come to it voluntarily.  I was laid off.  Thank God I was laid off.

I whole-heartedly believe our standard of living will decline but our quality of life will go up.  Hopefully my generation doesn't waste its time and treasure on plastic surgery, viagra, and therapists.  Maybe some older, fudlling men+ women, instead of trying to act 30 and making fools out of themselves, will be sitting in a bar drinking beer instead of martinis and will look around the table at honest faces.  Maybe then they will start talking about how bad they're getting screwed and go home and teach a younger generation to fight again.  Kinda like what happened the first time this country had a revolution.


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 30, 2010)

midwestcoast
 One thing is for sure we do use a larger share of the worlds resources than other countries,even if they have more people than we do,so to be fair,curbing our own consumption may have a greater impact than developing countries curbing their population.
Im shooting for 100% elimination of gasoline as personal transportation fuel and 100% waste wood and solar heatiing. Im at 50% now. The postesr on this website seem to be on the right path,the rest of the country may need higher energy prices to get on the bandwagon.


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## Milton Findley (Oct 30, 2010)

btuser said:
			
		

> Here in America we have a great standard of living.  The problem for me (and just maybe others as well) was for a long time I was confusing standard of living as being the same thing as quality of life.  I was working 80-100 hrs week, neglecting my family and friends, hating was I was doing but all the time measuring my success by paychecks and toys.  I didn't have an epiphany, or come to it voluntarily.  I was laid off.  Thank God I was laid off.
> 
> I whole-heartedly believe our standard of living will decline but our quality of life will go up.  Hopefully my generation doesn't waste its time and treasure on plastic surgery, viagra, and therapists.  Maybe some older, fudlling men+ women, instead of trying to act 30 and making fools out of themselves, will be sitting in a bar drinking beer instead of martinis and will look around the table at honest faces.  Maybe then they will start talking about how bad they're getting screwed and go home and teach a younger generation to fight again.  Kinda like what happened the first time this country had a revolution.



Too bad you didn't spend some time with a therapist, you might have gained a little wisdom without being hit over the head.  

I am certain that whatever I do will make little difference in the overall picture, but it makes me feel better about how I am treating the environment.  All of us take, I just intend to take less and leave more behind me.


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 30, 2010)

btuser said:
			
		

> Here in America we have a great standard of living.  The problem for me (and just maybe others as well) was for a long time I was confusing standard of living as being the same thing as quality of life.  I was working 80-100 hrs week, neglecting my family and friends, hating was I was doing but all the time measuring my success by paychecks and toys.  I didn't have an epiphany, or come to it voluntarily.  I was laid off.  Thank God I was laid off.
> 
> I whole-heartedly believe our standard of living will decline but our quality of life will go up.  Hopefully my generation doesn't waste its time and treasure on plastic surgery, viagra, and therapists.  Maybe some older, fudlling men+ women, instead of trying to act 30 and making fools out of themselves, will be sitting in a bar drinking beer instead of martinis and will look around the table at honest faces.  Maybe then they will start talking about how bad they're getting screwed and go home and teach a younger generation to fight again.  Kinda like what happened the first time this country had a revolution.



I hear ya BTU, quality of life does not necessarily coincide with quantity of toys, instead of wanting the best of everything,make the best of everything you have now,although our toys do change over time ,they get more practical.At 54 im down to 4-5 hour workdays now  instead of 8-12 with no family time. My quality of life is improving as my workday is shrinking. IF you make a list of the 5 most important things in your life and the list of the 5 things that occupy the most of your time,too often they dont match up.


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## btuser (Oct 30, 2010)

> Too bad you didn't spend some time with a therapist, you might have gained a little wisdom without being hit over the head.
> 
> I am certain that whatever I do will make little difference in the overall picture, but it makes me feel better about how I am treating the environment.  All of us take, I just intend to take less and leave more behind me.



Choppng wood is my therapy.    Have you got a hybrid too?


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## kenny chaos (Oct 30, 2010)

I bet my dad can take your dad.


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## btuser (Oct 30, 2010)

This conversation is stupid.  Superman is a real guy.  Mighty Mouse is just a cartoon.

It would be a good fight though!


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## Dune (Oct 30, 2010)

The thing about therapy is, if almost anybody thinks you need it, and you think you don't, you probably do.


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## btuser (Oct 30, 2010)

Therapy is great.  Everybody needs a hobby, but asking a therapist if you need therapy is kinda like asking an insurance salesman if you have enough insurance.    A friend of mine used to believe his fingers would get itchy whenever he was about to get lucky.  His girlfriend used to hunt ghosts.  When he went to prison for stealing (gambling debts) she had a seance so his soul could come back.  Pretty neat!

The green thing is great, really great.  Every day let's all make a point to over-pay for vegetables and buy a rainforest CD.  Buy something green, just keep buying and everything will be all right.


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## allhandsworking (Oct 30, 2010)

Just watch Jerry Springer show!  baby's having baby's.  Savages having savages!  You Wonder why the 6 pm news is murder,mayhem and marijuana!  I feel bad for people.  Life is a constant struggle and I had two caring nurturing parents!  

"The meek will inherit the earth"


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## btuser (Oct 30, 2010)

Meek=Weak.

"They will understand, at long last, that freedom and bread enough for all are inconceivable together, for never, never will they be able to share between them." Fyodor Dostoyevsky


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## Milton Findley (Oct 30, 2010)

btuser said:
			
		

> > Too bad you didn't spend some time with a therapist, you might have gained a little wisdom without being hit over the head.
> >
> > I am certain that whatever I do will make little difference in the overall picture, but it makes me feel better about how I am treating the environment.  All of us take, I just intend to take less and leave more behind me.
> 
> ...



Leaping to conclusions is good exercise too.  Six liter Superduty.


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## btuser (Oct 30, 2010)

> Leaping to conclusions is good exercise too.  Six liter Superduty.



I bet its to tow a big boat or a camper.  Just think of the horrible damage you're doing to the enviroment!  I use a tent, and a bicyle, and have made it to 19 states.  The cost of cycling is even with the cost of traveling by car when you consider food, because 60 miles on a bike is a good day but 60 miles in a car is only an hour and maybe $10 fuel.   With this in mind I feel my very existence is as damaging as everyone else.  You seem to feel good about yourself because you can reason you're not quite as bad as someone else, but I have guilt.    Can you help me?   

To get back to the original idea of the post.  I'd say the simple act of selfishly saving money is the best way to help the enviroment.  The hard part is conservation is the loss of jobs.    There's about 25 years labor in every barrel of oil.


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## Dune (Oct 30, 2010)

How much horsepower does that Banks system add to your 6.6 anyhow?


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## Dune (Oct 30, 2010)

btuser said:
			
		

> > Leaping to conclusions is good exercise too.  Six liter Superduty.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Getting hard to seperate the serious from the sarcastic at this point.

Are you trying to say that conserving oil by utilizing green technology will cause us to lose jobs?


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## btuser (Oct 30, 2010)

Depending on how you dial it I can get 150+hp.  Its kinda scary.  I've heard 600hp is possible, plus with the Allison transmission that's basically a rock crusher there's enough torque to light 'em up when you pass someone on the highway.  Its a 2002 and came out 1 yr before the emissions changed and they added the cat converter, so with the 4" exhaust there's no constriction.   I don't even mess with it anymore, and just leave it on factory.    The idea was to save fuel but not much luck with that when you can't lay off the pedal.


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## Dune (Oct 30, 2010)

Yeah, it's scary alright, but your not compensating or anthing so stick with the wood chopping, you"ll be O.K.


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## btuser (Oct 30, 2010)

> Getting hard to separate the serious from the sarcastic at this point.
> 
> Are you trying to say that conserving oil by utilizing green technology will cause us to lose jobs?



I'm saying the simple act of conservation in an economy that is 70% dependant on consumer activity will cause people to lose jobs.  Even if we use less to the point that energy and commodity use becomes flat people will still lose their jobs, as we figure out how to do the same work with less people.  That's not a bad thing per se, but when most of the gains in productivity go to 10% of the population, its not like the rest of society has more money to spend on more stuff to put more people to work.  

If I had a magical box that hooked up to my house and could give me all the light, heat, and food I would need for free, I would be out of a job too.


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## Dune (Oct 30, 2010)

Nah, you'd still need money for cocktails.


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## btuser (Oct 31, 2010)

I spent extra for the cocktail model.  Now if I could just figure out how to get it not to burn the popcorn.


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## midwestcoast (Oct 31, 2010)

btuser said:
			
		

> I'm saying the simple act of conservation in an economy that is 70% dependant on consumer activity will cause people to lose jobs.  Even if we use less to the point that energy and commodity use becomes flat people will still lose their jobs, as we figure out how to do the same work with less people.  That's not a bad thing per se, but when most of the gains in productivity go to 10% of the population, its not like the rest of society has more money to spend on more stuff to put more people to work.
> 
> If I had a magical box that hooked up to my house and could give me all the light, heat, and food I would need for free, I would be out of a job too.



Perfect example of the conundrum of our economy being based on a model of constant growth while we are smacking hard against the boundaries of a finite planet.
We need to figure out how to prosper without growth. It makes economists heads hurt but it's pretty obviously true.


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## btuser (Oct 31, 2010)

We won't, and as discussed in other posts an increase in efficiency won't lead to a decrease but rather an increase in use.  So when I drop my heating oil consumption by 40% am I doing the irresponsible thing?

Part of me doesn't really believe that in regards to oil, because I don't think it could really get any cheaper than it is right now.  However we use roughly 75% of what we burn just to get around, and a hell of a lot of that is one person in one car sitting in a long line of traffic.  Remember when gas went to $1.50 right after we spent $700,000,000,000.00 on a bank bailout?  Now we're coming to find out we made a bundle on that, almost enough to pay for all those new highways my state is getting, so one person in one car doesn't get upset about sitting in quite so long a line of traffic.


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 31, 2010)

btuser said:
			
		

> > Getting hard to separate the serious from the sarcastic at this point.
> >
> > Are you trying to say that conserving oil by utilizing green technology will cause us to lose jobs?
> 
> ...



How can an economy that is 70% deoendent on consumer spending be sustainable. Can we consume our way to prosperity?Only as long as we keep borrowing money to do it i guess.  How long can we survive selling each other foreign made goods? Something tells me things are going to get pretty ugly when we have to come to grips that the party is over and its time to clean up the mess and pay back all the borrowed money.


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## semipro (Oct 31, 2010)

midwestcoast said:
			
		

> btuser said:
> 
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One of my pet peeves also.  I've never understood why everyone things growth is always good.  I and many others I'm sure would be perfectly happy with steady state conditions and a high quality and sustainable lifestyle.


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## btuser (Oct 31, 2010)

Growth is good for two types of people.

1.) People who depend on the velocity of money.  This group is government and financial.  When I look at taxes and interest payments as being the same thing, it explains why the banks and my government want me to be in debt.

2.) People who know they're leaving a mess behind.  Keep building/growing and you never have to turn around and fix what you left behind, or live with the people you just screwed.

My town has a very anti-growth attitude about it.  I love it.


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## midwestcoast (Nov 1, 2010)

btuser said:
			
		

> My town has a very anti-growth attitude about it.  I love it.


Unfortunately my town is plagued with poverty, crime, unemployment, infrastructure erosion and near bankruptcy because population and employment (mainly industrial) here have been in decline for decades.  I've written to my political Rep's (local & federal) asking about economic plans & they mostly talk about supporting the steel mills.... Right, like those jobs are ever coming back. They give lip service to "Hi-tech" & "Green" jobs, but there's no pool of skilled workers, education system is a disaster & there's no money to fix it because the tax base is gone.
I'd love to see a big effort to transform the economies of rust-belt cities that could be used as a model for the country.  Alas that stuff costs $$$$$$.


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## Milton Findley (Nov 1, 2010)

Oh well, darn, Karma got me this past weekend.  All that wind we had caused the big weeping willow to fall over on my camper.  I had to go buy some tires, and hire the handy man to change them, and next weekend I will have to tow it to the camper dealer so that they can assess it and fix it.  New roof for sure.  That should help the economy, and keep the insurance company clerks doing a little paperwork...  

The bad news is that weeping willows make bad firewood.


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## Seasoned Oak (Nov 1, 2010)

midwestcoast said:
			
		

> btuser said:
> 
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The problem is when population is in decline the politicians dont know how to downsize municipal budgets and services to match. The recession  and falling housing prices has not affected my town much cuz there never was boom cycle here.Its always some variation of famine and never feast ever since all the Manufacturing  left the country. The teachers want raises every year(and they get them) the Police and all the Govt employees want raises every year and guaranteed taxpayer funded pension plans at the same time every one else s  income and hours are falling. If the Govt goes broke were in a world of hurt here as 1/2 the population is getting some sort of Govt checks,be it disability ,SS SSI, unemployment,pension,welfare,ect ect.


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## btuser (Nov 1, 2010)

Hey, I don't need any handouts!  Just give me my medicaid, medicard, food stamps, social security, section 8 housing, subsidized mass transit, earned income credit, and I don't need no help from nobody!  

We've been poor for a long time, but now we're running out of credit.  Green Jobs sound great but my experience with what is expected when it comes to an "educated" work force is sales/marketing to sell to people that have money.  There's no shortage of labor in this country, just a shortage of people willing to work for less and less every year.  I talked to an 20+yr master electrician who applied for work at a solar company, but was offered $14/hr as a foreman.


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## Seasoned Oak (Nov 1, 2010)

btuser said:
			
		

> Hey, I don't need any handouts!  Just give me my medicaid, medicard, food stamps, social security, section 8 housing, subsidized mass transit, earned income credit, and I don't need no help from nobody!
> 
> We've been poor for a long time, but now we're running out of credit.  Green Jobs sound great but my experience with what is expected when it comes to an "educated" work force is sales/marketing to sell to people that have money.  There's no shortage of labor in this country, just a shortage of people willing to work for less and less every year.  I talked to an 20+yr master electrician who applied for work at a solar company, but was offered $14/hr as a foreman.



The public employees here in Pa seem to live in a different world. In 2001 the state legislature enacted massive pension hikes for themselves (50% increase) and included teachers, judges and state employees at a lesser rate just so they could get some support from them for it  before the meltdown with the story that the stock market would fund it,well we know what happened to that,problem is taxpayers may be on the hook for all this money that really does not exist. They are floating plans to increase the taxpayer contribution from 4% to over 30% because of the stock market decline. The plan was 30 Billion in the hole in 2009.No one in govt is talking about rolling back these pensions to the former levels just where to get the Billions to pay for it all. Now they just just did some more trickery to push the bill for it down the road a few more years. Worst economic climate in my 50 year lifetime and the bozos in Pa Govt voting themselves 50% increases,its thievery at its finest.


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## kenny chaos (Nov 1, 2010)

You think you got problems?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzkBR_ZwE30&feature=related


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## semipro (Nov 1, 2010)

kenny chaos said:
			
		

> You think you got problems?
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzkBR_ZwE30&feature=related



That brought back some memories.  I actually remember that from 35+ years ago.


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## kenny chaos (Nov 2, 2010)

[quote author="Semipro" date="1288669851That brought back some memories.  I actually remember that from 35+ years ago.[/quote]





My point exactly.  Things really are better.  What him say?


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## btuser (Nov 2, 2010)

OOPEEDOOPEE!.  Thank God the only negative characters we see on TV now are white male fathers.


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## btuser (Nov 2, 2010)

> The public employees here in Pa seem to live in a different world. In 2001 the state legislature enacted massive pension hikes for themselves (50% increase) and included teachers, judges and state employees at a lesser rate just so they could get some support from them for it  before the meltdown with the story that the stock market would fund it,well we know what happened to that,problem is taxpayers may be on the hook for all this money that really does not exist. They are floating plans to increase the taxpayer contribution from 4% to over 30% because of the stock market decline. The plan was 30 Billion in the hole in 2009.No one in govt is talking about rolling back these pensions to the former levels just where to get the Billions to pay for it all. Now they just just did some more trickery to push the bill for it down the road a few more years. Worst economic climate in my 50 year lifetime and the bozos in Pa Govt voting themselves 50% increases,its thievery at its finest.



The employees have been contributing the same amount or more for the past 50 years.  Its the states that have been seduced by Wall Street that easy and safe returns of 9% were possible, so that weak government could fake a balanced budget, and give away tax breaks to folks who don't pay their fair share (poor and rich alike).  GOVERNMENT IS  AN UN-PAID EMPLOYEE OF THE POWERFULL.  So now we've run out of clever ideas and ways to kick the can.  Now its going to hurt a lot worse than it did in the 1970s when we should've fixed all this.


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## Seasoned Oak (Nov 3, 2010)

BTUser
I try not to dwell on all this otherwise ill turn into an angry old man(if im not already) By the way ,ever buy that cabin on the lake(for cheap)?


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## btuser (Nov 3, 2010)

Uh, no.  There are no cabins on the lake for cheap in my area.


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## midwestcoast (Nov 3, 2010)

trump said:
			
		

> The problem is when population is in decline the politicians dont know how to downsize municipal budgets and services to match. The recession  and falling housing prices has not affected my town much cuz there never was boom cycle here.Its always some variation of famine and never feast ever since all the Manufacturing  left the country. The teachers want raises every year(and they get them) the Police and all the Govt employees want raises every year and guaranteed taxpayer funded pension plans at the same time every one else s  income and hours are falling. If the Govt goes broke were in a world of hurt here as 1/2 the population is getting some sort of Govt checks,be it disability ,SS SSI, unemployment,pension,welfare,ect ect.



Yep, local gov'ts are generally incapable of effectively managing decline.  I beleive that is because the whole concept is totally foreign to our "system".  None of them had courses in their MBA programs on how to prosper with shrinking sales... always about how to grow.  
If the possibility of decline was ever entertained in the planning stages of budgets & service provision, perhaps we could have ready-made plans for how to scale gov't down to match the size of a jurisdiction.  
I dunno about you, but I sure as heck wouldn't want to change paychecks with a teacher in this area! Nor change jobs.  If they were making bank I'd resent the raises during a recession.

I don't begrudge anyone their pension after a lifetime of service, wish I could look forward to the same.  I do begrudge the mayors' nephew pulling in $30-something-grand to video-tape some gov't meetings and the user-fees from outsourcing to private companies, services that tax $ used to pay for WITHOUT laying off any public employees who used to do the work and a whole bunch of other crap that goes on around here. but none of that has to do with population, just coruption


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## Seasoned Oak (Nov 3, 2010)

midwestcoast said:
			
		

> trump said:
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The average teacher salary here is 45-50 G a year making them the highest paid in the area after doctors and lawyers.What is a lifetime of service? it seems for Govt employees its 20 years,for the rest of us its 50 years if you count from HS grad at 17 until 67  In the case of teachers its 30 years if 60 or 35 years service at any age.
Friend of mine just retired from the state police at 42. Now the state has to pay his retirement  for the next 40 years plus the cost of his replacement,and his replacements replacement in another 20 years. Seems excessive to me.


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## Dune (Nov 3, 2010)

This is all real relevant to green energy.


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## kenny chaos (Nov 3, 2010)

Dune said:
			
		

> This is all real relevant to green energy.







It's just the latest catch phrase anywho.


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## Seasoned Oak (Nov 4, 2010)

Dune said:
			
		

> This is all real relevant to green energy.



Yea this should probably jump to the ash can section.    
How much trouble was it to build that splitter? I got a 16 hp side shaft engine i was thinking about taking a stab at it. Cant really see payin a grand+ for one as i dont use it too often.


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## Dune (Nov 4, 2010)

trump said:
			
		

> Dune said:
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Depends on a few things. If you have free steel, free time, most of the hydraulics (it is always worth buying a splitter valve), good welding skills and equipment, it might be worth it. If you have to buy much of the stuff, a grand might seem cheap. One good source that I have used for decades is https://www.surpluscenter.com/home.asp. High quality stuff, fair prices.


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## stoveguy2esw (Nov 14, 2010)

thread reminded me aof a mid 70's movie   http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1800089980/info

not making a "value judgement" either way just saying i though of this whe i was reading the thread


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## Seasoned Oak (Nov 18, 2010)

Dune said:
			
		

> trump said:
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I guess im still better off renting one every other year for $50


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