# Cracked stone on Tribute.



## jeffman3 (Dec 20, 2008)

Well my experience with the Hearthstone Tribute continues to deteriorate. I discovered a crack in the stone on the right hand rear stone, and a small crack in the right hand lower side stone as well. I don't know how long it's been there. I was stirring the coals to get them to burn out so I could scoop the ash out for this evenings burn and I noticed a small crack on the cement on the inside of the firebox. I investigated farther, and under the rear heat shield, sure enough there is a crack in the stone. :sick: I can't get an answer form the other dealer in NE, and I don't know if this is safe to burn, as is, till I can talk to a dealer about a warranty claim for this, as well as the warranty claim on-going for the warped door. I know that we haven't over-fired the stove, as we have a thermometer on the top front stone in front of the vent. It has never been over 550*. Do I burn, or call for an emergency delivery of heating oil, It's going to get to -4 tonight.


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## JonOfSunderland (Dec 20, 2008)

Direct from Jim at Hearthstone:

“Hairline or surface cracks are natural and do not affect the integrity
of the stove.  Even a crack all the way through can be sealed with stove
cement and the stove can be burned in this condition indefinitely.  The
stone can also be replaced with some tear down and reassembly of the
stove."


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## jeffman3 (Dec 20, 2008)

JonOfSunderland said:
			
		

> Direct from Jim at Hearthstone:
> 
> “Hairline or surface cracks are natural and do not affect the integrity
> of the stove. Even a crack all the way through can be sealed with stove
> ...



This is not the surface cracks that make this stove so beautiful. It goes all the way through the stone so far as I can tell. It is not leaking smoke that we know of, but you can feel the crack from the outside. I guess we will go ahead and burn for now, the stones don't appear to be loose, and there is no smoke leaking out. Thank you for the quick reply.


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## Nic36 (Dec 20, 2008)

Jeff, could you post a picture of the crack? Maybe some others with soapstone stoves can give you their opinion with a picture.


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## Highbeam (Dec 20, 2008)

I have a small can of stove cement, rutland black. If you have some or can get some I would smear it on the inside of the stove over the crack. Watch it burn and if you see an air jet from the crack then seal i from the outside as well. Like grouting tile, wipe off the cement so that only a line of it remains. 

Got to say that if cracking becomes common on these stoves, Hearthstone will go bankrupt. Fortunately the cracks are few adn far between at this point. 

If you have an oil burner for the central home furnace system then it should be full of oil right now. Oil is cheap right now and you need a dependable heat source other than a woodburner. We all do. Mine is electric.


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## jeffman3 (Dec 21, 2008)

We have a bit of oil, and electric space heaters, but work is slow at the plant, the money just isn't there to fill the tank, I'm still working, but this has been a very hard year, lots of 4 day work weeks. etc.... The cracks are small enough I wouldn't be able to work any sealant of any kind into them. I don't think it's leaking, no air jet or even a stronger flame in the area of the cracks, but I will for sure seal it from the inside as soon as possible.


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## jeffman3 (Dec 22, 2008)

I think I have bigger problems then the crack in the stone. I emptied the stove this week end and inspected it. I took pictures and want to get your opinions. I know I have a problem but is it safe to burn till I can get something done about it? I took some pictures looking up toward the flue in front of the baffle and secondary burn tubes. I don't know what the part is called but it is cracked. I have also posted pics of the cracked stone from the inside and out.


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## edthedawg (Dec 22, 2008)

Sounds like you are likely running it at the very high end of where you should be, if you stay at 550.  But if that's just an occasional peak, and you trust your thermometer, then this may be considered excessive cracking.  Tough to think Hearthstone isn't going to look at this and not claim you overfired it, unfortunately.  But I'm no authority...

I will say, if this was my Heritage, I would still burn it.  Probably put some cement on the cracks, especially now that it's all cleaned out and cooled...  It's not going to puff smoke out - you would draw combustion air in thru the cracks during normal operation - that's the real risk, is those cracks opening up and allowing unmetered fresh air into the fire.

Your first picture - is that the inside of the top front left corner of the iron support frame?  Can't say I'm shocked to see that crack.  they could double the size of that radius and it'd still crack there.  I doubt the stove is in any danger of falling apart, but you want to keep an eye on it and get Hearthstone to check into it.


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## Highbeam (Dec 22, 2008)

Ewh! Looks like the support casting for the stove top is cracked out. Almost looks like it is cracked on both sides from the radii. The cast part has failed. It is of course replaceable while they are replacing that rear stone. 

The rear stone looks to have also cracked from the through bolt that holds the little cast iron piece on there. Another stress riser. Since it cracked on that bolt hole it is not natural and very likely goes all the way through. I think that the rear block needs to be replaced.

Get Jim from HS on the line and get his decision. He will set you up with a local dealer or make a deal. Not sure if they will claim overfire but too late now, you need this fixed. The refered dealer can also give you a price to fix it. These stoves are supposed to be fairly easy to take apart not that I'd want to. 

I wouldn't burn it unattended until you filled the crack with cement. I wouldn't fill it until you get in contact with Jim.


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## jeffman3 (Dec 23, 2008)

550* is the hottest it has ever been. Normally we run it at 400* to just under 500*. I verified the thermometer to 500 degrees in the oven along with another thermometer. If anything it reads a little high, so it wouldn't have been that hot. Highbeam do you have contact info for Jim at HS. I sent an e-mail to the dealer I am working with on the door leak, but didn't get a reply today. I know the holiday is going to slow down the communication to get this fixed. 

I'm thinking that it's not leaking air at this point. The fire doesn't seem to burn brighter around it, and there is no "air jet" so to speak, but we have a leaky door too, so who knows, when that seals up properly it may. I guess it all boils down to, this is all fixable, or should I be pushing for a replacement stove?


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## Highbeam (Dec 23, 2008)

Let me try and dig for his email. Jim is the tech guy at HS, I would go straight to HS on this one since you are talking about a "totaled" stove or at least a significantly rebuilt one. Either way, someone will rebuild it and use it. I can't see why a replacement stove would be any better than this one after being properly rebuilt/repaired.


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## jeffman3 (Dec 23, 2008)

Well I spoke to to the HS dealer I have been talking to about the door leak. He got the e-mail I sent him about the cracks etc..., and sent it on to the regional HS distributor guy. He is supposed to call back this afternoon, and let me know what he finds out. I guess it's in Hearthstone's hands now. I will find out if they are going to stand behind their product or not. I don't know if they will fix the stove I have, or just replace it. For that matter I don't know if they will do anything. I hope to find out latter today.


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## Highbeam (Dec 23, 2008)

Jim Casavant [JCasavant@hearthstonestoves.com] 

I searched this site and the above has been posted already. Otherwise I would have PM'd it. He's a decent guy.


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## jeffman3 (Dec 24, 2008)

I just received an e-mail from my dealer about this problem. HS is going to cover all the parts, and I will have to pay the shipping and labor to fix it. I will have to talk to them about how much that will cost. I'm afraid it will be cheaper to buy a new stove by the time I pay mileage from half way across the state. We'll see.


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## wellbuilt home (Dec 24, 2008)

I think some one  needs to figure out what guarantee means . It seems like every time I buy something  ,truck ,car ,stove,tools etc. Its a piece of #$%*  and when i call the dealer they just don't back there product .I have  ford diesel  trucks with bumper to bumped full coverage for three years . and nothing is ever covered .I think the American public need to ban together and fight for our warranties .   Dam now i have gotten my self all riled up .  John


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## Highbeam (Dec 24, 2008)

You bought a new stove and installed it less than a year ago and they are not covering labor? or shipping? Buying you a chunk of stone is, well, crap. There must be more to the story. Are they claiming you overfired and denying your warranty? Is there any other reason that your warranty should not apply? This is a premium stove from a premium company and they should take care of you if their product self destructs within a year.


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## jeffman3 (Dec 24, 2008)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> You bought a new stove and installed it less than a year ago and they are not covering labor? or shipping? Buying you a chunk of stone is, well, crap. There must be more to the story. Are they claiming you overfired and denying your warranty? Is there any other reason that your warranty should not apply? This is a premium stove from a premium company and they should take care of you if their product self destructs within a year.



Technically speaking, after reading the warranty in the owners manual again, they are fulfilling the warranty to the letter. I bought the stove on 11-20-07. (the date on the invoice) It was installed 1-04-08. The warranty says:"Within the first year after the [Purchase Date], Hearthstone will pay for labor performed by a Dealer at Hearthstone's published labor rates in effect at the time the labor is performed. Thereafter, the Original purchaser is responsible for the cost of labor." They are covering all the parts as they are bound to do so, in the warranty. Shipping of the parts is warrantied for 90 days, and after that, the purchaser is responsible for shipping of parts. Hearthstone would pay 1/2 of the shipping if I was instructed to return the stove to Hearthstone or the dealer for repair. After one year, the Purchaser is responsible for all shipping of the stove. I have not been instructed to return the stove, and even at that, it has been more then one year from the date of "purchase". 

I expected more from them considering that this is a "premium stove" from a "premium company" also, but they are doing as required in the warranty, but absolutely nothing else. 

Next time I'll buy a Jotul, but I can't dis Hearthstone for following the letter of the warranty.


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## edthedawg (Dec 24, 2008)

You can legitimately argue that the "damage" was done before 11/20/*2008*.  Try contacting Jim @ HS?


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## Highbeam (Dec 24, 2008)

I wonder how woodstock's (the other soapstone company) warranty compares. I didn't realize that you were out of the warranty period.


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## jeffman3 (Dec 25, 2008)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> I wonder how woodstock's (the other soapstone company) warranty compares. I didn't realize that you were out of the warranty period.



Technically I am out of the one year warranty period from the date of purchase. I paid for the stove and put a large down-payment on the chimney and install. The install was Jan 4th '07. We are talking about the deference between me buying the stove and the dealer installing it. The weather delayed the install. 

This whole thing just makes me sick to my stomach. :sick: I will try to e-mail Jim @ HS, and see if they will pay for the labor or at least part of it. Like I said before, I will buy Jotul next time. With the Hollidays, it will take a few days to get this lined out as to what is going to happen, and when. 

I am guessing that if I have them do the rebuild on this, I will be half way to the price of a new stove. Maybe I'm wrong but it is going to take several hours to take this thing apart and rebuild it, and the mileage is what I am afraid of. They are literally 1/2 way across the state. I am guessing a 2 1/2 hour drive one way. 

I am going to price a Jotul F3 CB, before I hire them to do the repairs. There is dealer about 60 miles away. I would have to modify the hearth to increase the "R" value (I would need 1.1, if I'm right, and I only have .9 and change.)but it might just be worth it. Time will tell.


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## pyro68 (Dec 25, 2008)

a crack in the stone filled w/ cement is no different then where the stones join together.  You should be fine burning the stove as long as you can control the fire and don't see creosote leaking out through the crack, could probably burn that stove for several years before replacing.  Stones can crack from more than just overfireing.  If the stove is not properly broken in, stones can crack.  Building a fire too quickly in a cold stove can also crack a stone.  I've rebuilt (replaced stones) several hearthstones, have even taken some older ones completely apart & rebuilt.  It's very labor intensive, but not that difficult, something most people could do themselves if they wanted.  I would recomend burning the stove through the winter, check with the dealer abou the cost of replacing the stone in the summer when they are slower, and take the stove back to the dealer so they can replace it there.  If you do it yourself, take soaking wet rags and let the joints absorb as much water as possible before taking the stove apart.  This will "soften" the mortar and make is easier to take apart.  When re-assembling, be sure to use Hearthstone's cement, it is different than standard stove cement.   You may want to ask your dealer about giving you a break on the labor, or maybe splitting it with you if you wait until summer and take the stove to them.  May refuse, but would think it's worth asking.   Jotul is a good stove as well, but I think Hearthstone's warranty is actually stronger.


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## tutu_sue (Dec 25, 2008)

Jotul warranty is for five years not including the following parts that are subject to wear and tear - These parts include paint, gaskets, burn plates, baffles, fire grates or glass (glass is only warranted against thermal breakage).
Purchaser responsible for transportation to dealer for repair or replacement from day one.


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## jeffman3 (Dec 26, 2008)

Well I sent off an e-mail directly to Jim at Hearthstone. I hope to receive an explanation of why the labor costs won't be covered, as the stove wasn't delivered and installed till Jan 08. I really hope Hearthstone will stand behind their product, by covering not only the parts, but labor as well. Their next sale, to me, hangs in this balance. If they stand behind the stove and make it right, I will consider Hearthstone for the stove in the basement next summer (a bigger stove), but if not, I'll be going with someone else most likely.


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## wellbuilt home (Dec 26, 2008)

I think they should  fix the stove even if its out of warranty. Your new stove should not have problems like that  in one season . You did not buy it at wallmart  the dealer should take care of you . I buy lots of stoves  gas and wood . If one of my units have problems the guys drive to the house and do what ever it takes to make it right.    (what ever it takes)    John


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## Mikeyvon (Dec 26, 2008)

I think it is good to get hearthstone in the picture, but you should really be on your dealer. They should take care of you.


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## jeffman3 (Dec 26, 2008)

I agree, but the dealer I bought the stove from, and who did the install, has sense gone out of business. The dealer I'm taking to now, is half again as far away, and I got their contact info from the Hearthstone web sight. They are being great to work with me at all, sense I didn't buy the stove from them, and they are probably to far away for me to do any real business with anyway. They are the closed HS dealer to my area.


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## johnnywarm (Dec 27, 2008)

JonOfSunderland said:
			
		

> Direct from Jim at Hearthstone:
> 
> “Hairline or surface cracks are natural and do not affect the integrity
> of the stove.  Even a crack all the way through can be sealed with stove
> ...




How much are theses stoves?


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## wellbuilt home (Dec 27, 2008)

That's different  If your dealer went under and you are asking  for help from some one else .I would start talking to hearthstone in a big way .I think the dealers fix the units and hearth stone forks over the parts . I would start pushing for a new hearth stone  stove from HS . Your door should not warp  and your stove should not crack like that in one season . If you over fired it ,that another story .  I have a new HSEQ  now because  my son left the flue open  and cracked  my old VC DW . He was helping me .  You could have received the same type of help. John


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## jeffman3 (Dec 27, 2008)

johnnywarm said:
			
		

> JonOfSunderland said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



With out looking it up I say I paid about $1500.


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## Shane (Dec 27, 2008)

We always put the installation date down as the "purchase date".  Figured that was the fairest way to do it.  Having the warranty clock ticking before posession has been taken doesn't seem right.


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## Nic36 (Dec 28, 2008)

Too bad Hearthstone isn't doing more for you, even though they are basically sticking to their warranty rules. I came very close to buying a Tribute or Jotul, but changed my mind because I did not think soapstone was what I needed. And, the Jotul dealers were too far away. Keep on them and maybe they will fix it for free. I hope they realize that peoples' experiences with their products and customer service, good and bad, are posted on the web. Maybe you should remind them of that.

Don't punish yourself for the purchase. I have just done worse lately, and I am finding out warranties are only as good as the company that backs them. I won't say for what, but you're not alone.

If it does not work out and you choose to ultimately go with another stove of the same size, you might want to look at the Vista Classic. It's not as cute as the Tribute, but you can pick from several colors. It has close close clearances and you will not have to alter your hearth like you will with the Jotul. I've been happy with it.


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## jeffman3 (Dec 29, 2008)

Nic36 said:
			
		

> Too bad Hearthstone isn't doing more for you, even though they are basically sticking to their warranty rules. I came very close to buying a Tribute or Jotul, but changed my mind because I did not think soapstone was what I needed. And, the Jotul dealers were too far away. Keep on them and maybe they will fix it for free. I hope they realize that peoples' experiences with their products and customer service, good and bad, are posted on the web. Maybe you should remind them of that.
> 
> Don't punish yourself for the purchase. I have just done worse lately, and I am finding out warranties are only as good as the company that backs them. I won't say for what, but you're not alone.
> 
> If it does not work out and you choose to ultimately go with another stove of the same size, you might want to look at the Vista Classic. It's not as cute as the Tribute, but you can pick from several colors. It has close close clearances and you will not have to alter your hearth like you will with the Jotul. I've been happy with it.



I really don't want to buy a new stove, but if the difference is a couple hundred bucks, then I might as well go ahead and do it. We need to heat our house this winter. Then my wife and I could rebuild the Tribute next spring/summer for the basement project. Hopefully I will get a response from Jim at Hearthstone tomorrow. I know allot of companies shut down for the holiday, so I'm being patient. I'd like to step up a bit in fire box size to get a bit longer burn. I have been moved to the grave yard shift at work, and am no longer here to load the stove at 2:00 am. (I'm not happy about that, but at least I'm still working, there are allot that aren't)

I have done some looking at other stoves, and I'll check out the PE Vista Classic next. Thanks for the head up.


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## Nic36 (Dec 29, 2008)

This is a bad time of year for service of any kind, that is for sure. 

Hopefully, it will not cost you too much. It probably will not. Even if it costs you a few hundred, you will have a good as new stove that you will be able to sell if you decide you need to upsize next year.

I didn't realize you were thinking about upsizing. If you do look at the PE stoves, maybe the bigger Classic would be better.

Hope it works out.


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## jeffman3 (Dec 29, 2008)

Well I got the definitive reply from Hearthstone. They will not be covering the labor shipping of the parts or mileage to fix the stove. I didn't get a reply to my question about if the gaskets and cement would be covered, so I guess not. My next step is to find out how much we are talking about to get this done, and deciding just how to move foreword. I can't believe that they are taking this stance. I will not be doing business with them again! I will post up more when I find out more about the specifics of just what I am going to have to put out of pocket to fix the premium stove, that if falling apart in less then a year.


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## johnnywarm (Dec 29, 2008)

jeffman3 said:
			
		

> Well I got the definitive reply from Hearthstone. They will not be covering the labor shipping of the parts or mileage to fix the stove. I didn't get a reply to my question about if the gaskets and cement would be covered, so I guess not. My next step is to find out how much we are talking about to get this done, and deciding just how to move foreword. I can't believe that they are taking this stance. I will not be doing business with them again! I will post up more when I find out more about the specifics of just what I am going to have to put out of pocket to fix the premium stove, that if falling apart in less then a year.





no soapstone for me.good luck.


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## jeffman3 (Dec 29, 2008)

Talked to the dealer about what it will cost me to fix the stove. I won't have pay them a dime! The reason is that "They won't touch it"! (That is direct quote) I was told that their repair/ install guy won't work on them because they will never seal up *right *again. So now I am stuck with a damaged stove that *they won't fix*, *even if I pay the labor!* I just can't believe this! I thought Hearthstone was _the_ premier manufacturer. I was wrong! I have a call in to Brian Herzfeld the Hearthstone rep, to talk about getting the parts delivered to me so I can try to fix it, or cutting me a check for the parts to help replace the stove. I will never do business with them again after this, and I encourage others looking at a Hearthstone stove to put them-selves in this situation and ask the question what the hell do I do now?


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## lazeedan (Dec 29, 2008)

Was the warped door allowing air in? Was this the cause of everything?


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## jeffman3 (Dec 29, 2008)

I don't know what caused the problems, but I do know that the stove has never been over 550*(and that only once or twice) and it doesn't over-fire till 600*.


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## johnnywarm (Dec 30, 2008)

Maybe if we all email the company a nice letter.


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## Nic36 (Dec 30, 2008)

johnnywarm said:
			
		

> Maybe if we all email the company a nice letter.



Or the link to this thread.


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## jeffman3 (Dec 30, 2008)

johnnywarm said:
			
		

> Maybe if we all email the company a nice letter.



If folks feel so inclined, have at it! 

I am just sick to my stomach :sick: >:-( and trying desperately to figure out how I am going to heat my house. I am considering a cheap stove (vogalzang Defender?) to try to get me through the winter. I need to find a *smoking* deal on an EPA stove fast! I hope that Hearthstone will just cut me check for the parts. If the dealer won't replace the parts because they won't seal up, the chances of me being able to do it are slim to none!


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## Nic36 (Dec 30, 2008)

Maybe you can do the work yourself? I know nothing about doing stuff like that. But it shouldn't be too terribly difficult to figure out, especially on a new stove. If Hearthstone quality is so good, the new parts should interchange and fit together with no problem. But, you seem to be having a Hearthstone quality problem as it is, so I don't know. 

The dealer may be saying that mostly because he simply does not want to do the work and involve himself any further.


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## wellbuilt home (Dec 30, 2008)

The bottom line is    We are all sitting on  soap stone time bomb and need to do something about it .     Fast     I would be disappointed if my new stove turned to S--t in a year and  HS wont lift a finger to help . I think this is so wrong . If nothing else  I think we need to save any  unsuspecting stove buyers  the aggravation that jeff is going thru  . I will be sending a message to hearthstone in the AM.  John


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## jeffman3 (Dec 30, 2008)

wellbuilt home said:
			
		

> The bottom line is    We are all sitting on  soap stone time bomb and need to do something about it .     Fast     I would be disappointed if my new stove turned to S--t in a year and  HS wont lift a finger to help . I think this is so wrong . If nothing else  I think we need to save any  unsuspecting stove buyers  the aggravation that jeff is going thru  . I will be sending a message to hearthstone in the AM.  John



Thank you John!


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## Highbeam (Dec 30, 2008)

What's your last name Jeff? Maybe just the initial for the sake of reference. 

Paging Tom the chimneysweep. What's up with this? Perhaps there is another dealer that is willing to do the work? Can the dealers simply choose not to provide service?

Honestly, I got out the flashlight and checked my stove for cracks last night. I didn't find any and my stove is performing superbly, for now. What if it cracks? what then? It's one thing if I have to buy the parts or pay for labor but if a CERTIFIED and LICENSED HEARTHSTONE dealer is NOT willing to work on the product then that speaks volumes. Quite frankly, if that dealer wants to remain a hearthstone dealer then they ought to be able to fix them or the company should revoke their dealership status.

Let's hope that hearthstone does the right thing here.


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## gyrfalcon (Dec 30, 2008)

jeffman3 said:
			
		

> Talked to the dealer about what it will cost me to fix the stove. I won't have pay them a dime! The reason is that "They won't touch it"! (That is direct quote) I was told that their repair/ install guy won't work on them because they will never seal up *right *again. So now I am stuck with a damaged stove that *they won't fix*, *even if I pay the labor!* I just can't believe this! I thought Hearthstone was _the_ premier manufacturer. I was wrong! I have a call in to Brian Herzfeld the Hearthstone rep, to talk about getting the parts delivered to me so I can try to fix it, or cutting me a check for the parts to help replace the stove. I will never do business with them again after this, and I encourage others looking at a Hearthstone stove to put them-selves in this situation and ask the question what the hell do I do now?



I've lost track here, Jeff.   What is it they won't fix because it doesn't "seal up right" again?  The warped door or the cracked stones?

And is he talking about the Tribute specifically, or all Hearthstone stoves?

This is really horrifying.


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## jeffman3 (Dec 30, 2008)

I sent you a PM Highbeam.


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## wellbuilt home (Dec 30, 2008)

I checked my stove out also,  and there are no cracks yet .  I did find that i am missing the gasket material on  the bottom of the side door . It must have come from the factory like that . I will talk to my dealer and see how the warranties work is done there.  I do lots of business with them and i know they rebuild stoves all the time .  Ive seen them replace a stone on the top and it seemed kinda easy .They  used a grinder to cut the stone up . Then tap out the pieces with a hammer clean up the stove with the grinder and scraper . Cleaned the stove with  alcohol  and glued in the new piece . They did need to cut the stone to fit. I would try to find a new dealer .   John


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## Highbeam (Dec 30, 2008)

The dealer that won't work on them is just being a bozo. Might not need the work, might be afraid that his techs are bozos, afraid of the risk, etc. You probably don't want them learning on your stove anyway. You need to call the next closest dealer and get a price. Add that price to the mileage/shipping to get a cost to repair. Compare that to the value of the repaired stove and make a decision about whether it is worth it or not. It might be "totalled". It might be extremely reasonable.

This sucks. Maybe gyrfalcon can get over to to the HS HQ and open a can of whoopa$$. Of particular lameness is that they are expiring the warranty based on sale date vs. install date and the dates are reasonably close.


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## jeffman3 (Dec 30, 2008)

gyrfalcon said:
			
		

> jeffman3 said:
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He was talking about the tare down and replacing the stones, and the top casting. They have done a similar jobs before and it never sealed right, in fact it was worse then before they took the thing apart. I don't know if he was talking about the Tribute, or all Hearthstone soapstone stoves. I am a handy kind of guy, but if a professional can't get it right, to the point that he just won't do it, what chance do I have at getting it right? 

Horrifying is right! I don't know what I'm going to do. :sick: :shut: 

I'm looking for replacement stoves now, but I don't know if I can put the scratch together. I am going to need a _sweet_ deal to make this swing.


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## jeffman3 (Dec 30, 2008)

wellbuilt home said:
			
		

> I checked my stove out also, and there are no cracks yet . I did find that i am missing the gasket material on the bottom of the side door . It must have come from the factory like that . I will talk to my dealer and see how the warranties work is done there. I do lots of business with them and i know they rebuild stoves all the time . Ive seen them replace a stone on the top and it seemed kinda easy .They used a grinder to cut the stone up . Then tap out the pieces with a hammer clean up the stove with the grinder and scraper . Cleaned the stove with alcohol and glued in the new piece . They did need to cut the stone to fit. I would try to find a new dealer . John



The stones on the top would have to be removed, and reset in the new casting, and the rear stone calls for a tare down of the back wall of the stove. There is no other dealer that I'm aware of. The nearest one is in Omaha on the other end of the state. I am in southwest Ne, Omaha is on the east border of Nebraska. There are problems with living in a mid-west, small village,(we aren't big enough to be called a town) but the advantages out way the disadvantages most of the time.


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## gyrfalcon (Dec 30, 2008)

I had a super auto mechanic tell me the same thing years ago about a Ford Escort.  Guy said he wouldn't do the major work it needed because the only serious beefs he'd ever had with customers were because the damn cars just wouldn't stay fixed.  I took him seriously and junked the only 4-year-old car (bought a humble used Hyundai, which served me more than well for almost 10 more years, despite the reputation).

I don't know what to say, Jeff.  I guess at least it's something to really grill any HS dealer about.  Given the clearances, as far as I can tell, HS are the only stoves I can use here without the enormous extra expense of tearing up the room and rebuilding the hearth, etc.  The fact that your dealer already knows it's something he won't work with says your problem with the stove isn't unique.  FWIW, mine has had five years of serious use and has shown no such problems, so it sounds like something went very wrong in the manufacturing process for some run of stoves.

Solving your problem is paramount, of course, but if you get a chance to probe the dealer tactfully about whether this is a Tribute-specific issue or a broader HS problem, there are a lot of potential HS buyers out here who would be very grateful for the info.

It's a real shame in your case because the Tribute is a real trooper of a stove for smaller spaces.


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## jeffman3 (Dec 30, 2008)

gyrfalcon said:
			
		

> I don't know what to say, Jeff.  I guess at least it's something to really grill any HS dealer about.  Given the clearances, as far as I can tell, HS are the only stoves I can use here without the enormous extra expense of tearing up the room and rebuilding the hearth, etc.



I am in the same situation as you, My space is limited and it would take allot of work to rework the hearth. I have found some stoves that will fit and stay under the "R" factor I built the Hearth to. (I'm glad I over built the hearth pad) My problem is coming up with $1000 to replace it, and nothing I have found is as attractive, to my mind, as the Tribute.


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## jeffman3 (Dec 31, 2008)

I spoke with Brian Herzfeld today (Hearthstone rep), He is going to talk to Jim Casavant (senior technical support specialist at Hearthstone) about this, and see what we can work out. I have to be out of town until Friday evening, so I will try to update folks what I find out when I get back.


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## johnnywarm (Dec 31, 2008)

jeffman3 said:
			
		

> I spoke with Brian Herzfeld today (Hearthstone rep), He is going to talk to Jim Casavant (senior technical support specialist at Hearthstone) about this, and see what we can work out. I have to be out of town until Friday evening, so I will try to update folks what I find out when I get back.




Best of luck.


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## Highbeam (Dec 31, 2008)

So lets say you order a new pickup truck with a 3 year warranty. Does the warranty timeline begin when you place the order, when you pick up the truck, or when you pay for it? Sometimes it takes 6 months for your ordered vehicle to be delivered and that would be a lot of lost warranty time. Has anyone on here ever bought a new truck to compare how the warranty works with trucks to how they work with stoves? 

That's the situation here. The warranty clock was apparently running before Jeff even had possesion of the stove. Before he could even burn it. 

If this is standard practice then all of us stove buyers need to not purchase the stove until the stove is actually delivered thereby forcing the purchase date to coincide with the possession date. How do you dealers like that idea?


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## johnnywarm (Dec 31, 2008)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> So lets say you order a new pickup truck with a 3 year warranty. Does the warranty timeline begin when you place the order, when you pick up the truck, or when you pay for it? Sometimes it takes 6 months for your ordered vehicle to be delivered and that would be a lot of lost warranty time. Has anyone on here ever bought a new truck to compare how the warranty works with trucks to how they work with stoves?
> 
> That's the situation here. The warranty clock was apparently running before Jeff even had possesion of the stove. Before he could even burn it.
> 
> If this is standard practice then all of us stove buyers need to not purchase the stove until the stove is actually delivered thereby forcing the purchase date to coincide with the possession date. How do you dealers like that idea?




I think when you buy a high-end item and theres a defect in alot of the stoves the company should stand behind it.


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## Nic36 (Dec 31, 2008)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> So lets say you order a new pickup truck with a 3 year warranty. Does the warranty timeline begin when you place the order, when you pick up the truck, or when you pay for it? Sometimes it takes 6 months for your ordered vehicle to be delivered and that would be a lot of lost warranty time. Has anyone on here ever bought a new truck to compare how the warranty works with trucks to how they work with stoves?
> 
> That's the situation here. The warranty clock was apparently running before Jeff even had possesion of the stove. Before he could even burn it.
> 
> If this is standard practice then all of us stove buyers need to not purchase the stove until the stove is actually delivered thereby forcing the purchase date to coincide with the possession date. How do you dealers like that idea?



Good point.

Also, I purchased my stove in April of this year. I have had possession of the stove for half a year before I ever started a break-in fire in it. I don't think there is anything wrong with the stove, but what if? This has got me to thinking, so I went to thechimneysweep.com and re-read my warranty. It is a limited lifetime and 5 year comprehensive for defective parts. I assume this is a standard PE warranty posted by Tom on his site.

Out of curiosity, I looked at the Hearthstone warranty for the Tribute. Hearthstone has 3 separate warranty conditions: Limited Lifetime, Limited 5 year, and Limited 1 year coverage. I noticed that cracked stones and broken cast iron parts  are under the Limited Lifetime coverage and reads:

Limited Lifetime Coverage
· All cast iron parts – against breakage, cracking or burn-through.
· All stones – against cracking or breakage due to thermal stress, excluding surface and hairline cracks and scratches that do not affect the operation or safety of the Woodstove.
· Primary and secondary air supply systems, including riser tubes, air wash system, secondary air manifold and stainless steel secondary air supply tubes – against breakage, cracking or burn-through.
· Glass – against breakage due to thermal shock. 

So, I don't see why Hearthstone has said that Jeff's stove is out of warranty. It appears to me his warranty claim falls under the conditions of the Limited Lifetime Warranty. 

My warranty also specifically states that it starts from the date of purchase. I think it all boils down to the quality of customer service with a particular company. There are so many exclusions and loopholes written into these warranties, a company will honor it only if they choose to do so.


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## wellbuilt home (Dec 31, 2008)

Nic36 said:
			
		

> Highbeam said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I talked to my dealer to day and  he tells me your problem is lack of a good dealer . He also tells me that your stove was probably cracked in shipping and the damage  was done before you even had your !st fire  . Once you started to burn it,  the stove expanded and the damage was then visible .  If he had sold the stove he would replace the stove with a new one  at no cost .    He also tells me that HS will  replace the stove   It should be under warranty .  The squeaky wheel gets the oil   keep squeaking   John


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## thechimneysweep (Dec 31, 2008)

Jeff PM'd me last night and asked me to look over this thread and weigh in with my opinion.  Here's my reply to him:

_Hi Jeff, 

I had seen the thread, but trusted Hearthstone’s customer service people would have explained the situation to your satisfaction by now.  Here’s my take: based upon your previous posts, you’ve heated your 1,000 sq.ft. house in SW NE toasty warm through a December when your low temp was -16f, and your average low temp was -6f.  The little Tribute simply isn’t built for that kind of heat output.  Have a look at our woodstove comparison page at http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/wscompha.htm , and you’ll see that the Tribute is rated to heat 600-1300 sq.ft.... in your climate, I think even 600 sq.ft. would be a stretch (please read the discussion at the bottom of the page.) 

Very occasionally, a Hearthstone part will go bad and require warranty replacement, but this is a rare occurrence indeed.  When a door warps, a top casting cracks AND a stone cracks all the way through in the same stove, it leaves no doubt in my mind that the stove has been consistantly overfired.  I have read your reports that you have kept your stovetop at 500-550 so as not to hit Hearthstone’s 600 deg. ceiling, but this is like having a car that redlines at 6,000 RPM and driving it at 5,500 all the time.  In other words, an upper limit warning is not an invitation to habitually run just short of that limit.  

As cold as it gets where you are, you really should have bought a larger stove. 

I spoke to Jim Casavant today, and his perception of your situation (three failed parts on the same stove) is exactly the same as mine: your stove has been repeatedly overfired, and really doesn’t qualify for warranty at all.  Nonetheless, Jim is willing to supply those parts to you, and, at my suggestion this morning, has even agreed to pay the freight. 

About those parts: the cracked-through stone is an absolute non-issue.  In my experience, that crack will never open enough to allow passage of air or wood exhaust in either direction.  Likewise the crack in the top casting.  The crack has relieved the stress due to overfiring by now: unless it cracks all the way through, I don’t think I’d replace it. 

The main thing is to get you back in control of your fire.  Jim will send you a new door frame and door assembly, which installs with four bolts and some gasketing.  This replacement will take you about 15 minutes, and your stove should be good to go for many years to come. 

Provided, that is, you run the stove a little farther below red-line, even if you have to augment the heat from another source during cold snaps. 

 - Tom_

I'd also like to comment on a few of the posts in this thread above, as they seem a little off-track.  Jeff doesn't have a bad dealer, he doesn't have a dealer at all.  The store he bought his stove from is out of business, and the store that processed his warranty claim is "half the state away."  Store B is understandably reluctant to perform warranty labor on Store A's sale, particularly with the extreme amount of drive time this rebuild would entail.  Plus, Dealer B must have tumbled to the same overfiring signs Hearthstone and I did, and would be unwilling to "own" the inevitable future problems Jeff's burning habits will create.

I don't blame Hearthstone at all for adhering strictly to the terms of their warranty, especially in light of the fact that they have agreed to turn a blind eye towards the considerable evidence of overfiring and replace Jeff's parts at no charge, including shipping.  I also think that all Jeff has to do is replace his door / frame assembly and operate his stove at a more reasonable level, and he will experience no further problems with his Tribute.


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## Peter B. (Dec 31, 2008)

This may seem irrelevant or out of context, but I've worked 'both sides of the counter' as an automotive consumer and as a customer service advisor in an auto repair shop.

I also know a little something about basic auto mechanics.

Not so long ago my brother (who is a veritable whiz in other respects) reported to me that his car's engine had failed at a comparatively low mileage, and that he was trying to negotiate with both the dealer and the manufacturer for financial 'help' with the repair.

I listened to the whole story, did some research, and asked my brother a few pointed questions.

It turned out that (documentably) my brother had not changed his oil for extended intervals.

I could not, in good conscience, side with my brother, and while he was reluctant to admit he had erred, he has now pledged to (at least) change the oil on his new car at the recommended intervals.

--

"Homely truth is unpalatable." -- Mark Twain

"Happy New Year." -- anonymous

Peter B.

-----


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## gyrfalcon (Dec 31, 2008)

Wow.

First, on behalf of all us poor slob stove owners out here, I'm impressed as heck that you were willing and able to step in here and help out, not to mention clear some things up.

But second, as another reasonably satisfied Tribute owner, I'm completely baffled by your very strong comments about overfiring.  If the manufacturer's stated "overfire" temperature doesn't actually mean what it says but means something else-- what, 100, 150, 200 degrees lower than what's stated?-- how in the heck are we out here supposed to know that?

I don't have Jeff's "problem"-- my stove sticks like glue to 400 when I've got everything just right, and only rarely creeps up to 450 for a short time.   I'm also in a cold climate in an old house, though small, and definitely under-stoved, but until I can save up the pennies to get  a larger one, I need to get as much as I can out of what I have.

Are you telling me that I don't dare fire the stove up above, say, 450 no matter what, even though the manufacturer's manual puts the upper limit at 600?

Not only does Hearthstone (not alone among manufacturers, by any means) wildly overstate the square footage the stove will heat, but it also wildly overstates the upper range of temperature you can take it to safely?  That's pretty stunning.  Seems to me if Jeff hasn't been burning in their *stated* overfire range and the stove still warped and cracked, that's 100 percent Hearthstone's fault for not stating the overfire range accurately, and the square footage, since inadequate stove size is the sole reason one would run a stove at its upper range.

Jeff was, seems to me, following the guidelines in the instructions for his stove.  I have a very hard time seeing how that can possibly be his fault.

On a more constructive note, is there any way you can think of to pressure Hearthstone to revise their stove specs to reflect reality so more folks don't get into this kind of catch-22?


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## thechimneysweep (Jan 1, 2009)

I didn't just shoot from the hip in my reply to Jeff, I went back and read all his previous posts.  Then I called Jim Casavant at Hearthstone and got his take.

I preferred not to call Jeff on this before, but many of his statements simply don't ring true to me.  I heat with wood myself, and don't believe it is possible to run a stove consistantly in the 500-550 deg. range without repeated spikes of 600+ degrees.

The Tribute has a 1.2 cubic foot firebox, and Jeff's previous posts indicate it was heating his 1,000 sq.ft. house no problem, during a period when daily low temperatures in his area averaged -6 degrees, and sank to *sixteen degrees below zero. *  Sorry, but I don't think that would be remotely possible without overfiring his 1.2 cu.ft. firebox.

I've been a Hearthstone dealer for over 20 years, and warranty claims are an extremely rare occurance.  The idea that Jeff's stove was assembled with a bad door casting, a bad top frame casting and a bad stone is also, to me, unimaginable.

Gryf, I don't see a reason why Hearthstone should adjust their maximum heating area number; the Tribute is undoubtedly capable of heating 1300 sq.ft.

Just not at six below zero. 

And I don't think you need to worry about damaging your stove if you're burning it the way you say you are, even if you occasionally drift to 600 degs. for short periods.  Jeff didn't merely overfire his stove: he nearly beat it to death.


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## Hogwildz (Jan 1, 2009)

thechimneysweep said:
			
		

> I didn't just shoot from the hip in my reply to Jeff, I went back and read all his previous posts.  Then I called Jim Casavant at Hearthstone and got his take.
> 
> I preferred not to call Jeff on this before, but many of his statements simply don't ring true to me.  I heat with wood myself, and don't believe it is possible to run a stove consistantly in the 500-550 deg. range without repeated spikes of 600+ degrees.
> 
> ...



Didn't want to HJ the thread, Ton, check your PM when you get a chance. Thnx


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## gyrfalcon (Jan 1, 2009)

OK, Tom, if the problem is you flat-out don't believe him, that's another story.   I may have missed the post where he says he's running the stove consistently in the 500-550 range, but what I saw him say quite emphatically was that he ran it 400-500 with very occasional spikes to 550.

In any case, he's said he's going to be away until Friday night, and I'm not comfortable continuing to discuss his specific situation while he's unable respond himself.

But I sure would like clarity on this overfire business.  If a stove-damaging overfire situation on one of these stoves means never, ever, under any circumstances so much as touching that 600-degree limit, then indeed, it needs to be specified very clearly that the stove must not be actually run at over some much lower limit, since as you say, there are inevitably odd temperature spikes now and again for brief periods.

Just for the record, as a reasonably intelligent and informed stove user, it would be my assumption that if overfire is specified at 600, that I could run it safely consistently at or close to 500 (I should be so lucky...) without a problem, and that the occasional brief spike to 550-600 would also not be a problem, only a reasonably extended (say an hour or so) period at 600 would cause real trouble.

If those are mistaken assumptions, *Hearthstone needs to change their instructions,* which are very minimal, to address actual operating conditions.

Honestly, after a winter-and-a-half of using it, I can't even imagine how one would get a Tribute up to 600, but one day I hope to get a bigger stove and I sure would like to be totally clear about it.


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## wellbuilt home (Jan 1, 2009)

Hi Tom , thanks for  looking in on our thread .  I  feel sorry for Jeff  ,  but  do  have my own concerns .   In the past Ive been using VC stoves in my remodeling projects.     Ive used  VC stoves in my homes  since the 80s    and loved them .  Last spring  i looked in to buying a new stove for my home  I heat 24/7  and  VC was getting a bad rap . Even though i have been extremely happy with there units up til now   i could not recommend them to my customers  or pay  my hard earned money  for a new one  because of there business   tact . (IT SUCKS )  Now  You tells us that HS  stoves cant be run at there max temp ?  isn't that like a speed limit ?  If we drive 65 mph  we don't get a ticket .    I have a new  EQ and i am marginal happy .    Its  0 deg   out to night and I'm cooking  at almost 500 o     Am i heading for trouble ?  .   Will i need a new stove tomorrow ? i hope not !  I feed my stove like crazy and cant see 600 o   or heat 3000 feet for that matter .  Jeff's stove is rated  for 1300 sf   is that in the summer time ?  We are soposto know that 600o  in our manual is a  code  word for 400 to450 ?   I believe Jeff when he said  he has never seen temps over  550.  Its hard to get the small stoves that hot . My stove runs at  around  350 to 400 with my  damper  closed and the air open 1/4 .  I think HS need to Pony UP with some C/S .   How about making  some happy customers ?  I really think HS should give Jeff a new stove.   We both no that a stove that was dropped will act  in the same manner  as a stove that was over fire . I really hate the way large corporations  think   can just wiggle  waggle there way out of there warranties .      I  am looking for two new stoves  now  to heat  2 different homes  ,  its looking like i mite have to go with  the  libertys  in stead .  My dealer  also sells  them .       I would like to see this matter resolved in a positive way     Thanks Tom   for any help  you could offer.                                   

                                John   Wellbuilt home additions LLC


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## gyrfalcon (Jan 1, 2009)

wellbuilt home said:
			
		

> Now  You tells us that HS  stoves cant be run at there max temp ?  isn't that like a speed limit ?  If we drive 65 mph  we don't get a ticket .



Took the thought right out of my head, John-- no ticket at 65.  I expect to be able to put 275 gallons of fuel oil in my 275-gallon tank without damaging it.  I expect to be able to cook something in my electric oven at 500 on its dial without damaging it.  I expect that putting a 100-watt bulb in a lamp rated for 100 Watts won't start a a fire.  I'm a pretty compulsive rule follower, but if the rules don't mean what they say, I'm totally at sea.

Tribute is rated for 1,300 feet max.  My whole house is 1,300 feet, but more than half of it is closed off in winter, my walls are a foot thick, my insulation is decent, my ceilings are 8 feet,  I heat the two side rooms farthest from the stove on a separate oil burner zone, I'm happy with a room temp of 69 or 70, and I'm tolerant of cold spots.  So yes, I'm in a cold climate, but I'm struggling to minimally heat something like 500 or 600 square feet.  Overestimates of heating capacity appear to be chronic in this whole industry, certainly not Hearthstone's issue alone.  Personally, I think it's deliberate to seduce people into buying an inadequate stove rather than no stove, with the expectation that they can be hit up again for a larger one when they discover their mistake but have fallen in love with wood heat.

Oh, and while I'm griping, Hearthstone continues to say in its manual and on its Web site that the Tribute takes 16-inch wood.  You can't put a 16-inch twig in the front-loading Tribute diagonally, never mind a log.  14 is the absolute longest anything that can be gotten into it.  I'm only glad I found that out literally hours before I  arranged to buy several cords of 16-inch wood.

The Tribute, and I assume all Hearthstone products, is a super little stove and I have literally zero complaints with it, only praise.  It's not its fault it's too small.

But there's something very, very, very wrong with the company's approach to marketing, and more importantly, customer information even once you've bought the stove.  A great dealer, like I assume Tom is, can compensate for that with better guidance and information, but we all know not as many dealers as we would like are that conscientious.

I'll get off my soapbox now.


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## Hogwildz (Jan 1, 2009)

With all due respect, Tom is merely trying to explain. He is not the man to jump all over, and if you consider to do so, why would he want to even post a reply when he feels your going to jump all over his shat? He is merely trying to give you the explanation you asked for, which he is not obligated to do so. Another thing many folks seem to forget, the stove manufacturers do not state it will heat your 1300 sf home, it says it will heat a 1300 sf area. There is a difference there. The area they speak of is a single space heated area. If your able to heat your whole home with said stove, feel lucky and appreciate it as I do. If your entire home is not heated from a single stove, then the layout may to be to blame, not the stove. Its a "space heater" not a furnace. I understand your frustration, and maybe the stove manufacturer needs to rethink their temp limits stated. But this may be part of the reason some do not state a set temp limit. Each install is a different situation.


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## gyrfalcon (Jan 1, 2009)

Hogwildz, well said, and I don't at all mean to jump on Tom personally, except for the pretty stunning announcement he seems to be making that the operating range stated in the stove manual isn't accurate, which I'm still eager for an explanation of.

I said before I'm amazed and impressed that he was willing to take it on himself to go to bat for an unhappy owner he has no connection to whatsoever.

I think I was pretty clear, though, that I'm NOT trying to heat my entire 1,300 foot home with this stove (I ain't quite that dumb), but essentially only less than half that, and the layout is entirely open, for whatever it's worth.

My plaint is that it would sure be nice to be able to rely on the manufacturer for at least *some* part of their stove info being accurate, but that appears not to be the case.


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## johnnywarm (Jan 1, 2009)

I run my jotul f400 at 500 to 550 all the time.i have no warped door or cracks. i'm sticking with cast-iron.


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## KeithO (Jan 1, 2009)

To my mind the biggest problem here is that the conversation centers on stove top temperature instead of flue gas temperature.   A stove that has 200-500lb of mass (particularly soapstone) is going to impart a terrific damping effect on the "real" combustion temperature inside the stove, before anything significant registers on the stove top.

If Jeff (or anyone else) would get a proper probe type flue gas thermometer, he would be far more in tune with what was going on inside his stove.   The Condor thermometer I use indicates overfire when the flue gas temp gets to 900F.    I can hit 900F on a new load of wood without the picture through the stove window looking alarming or getting blasted out the room.   Of course if I had to run the stove at that point for some time it would be a different story.  With my T5, once a new load of wood has ignited, the stove will run at 900F flue gas with the draft closed down all the way.  It was not until I blanked off some of the air inlets and restricted the primary air intake, that I was able to get this stove under control.  For a "mere" consumer, this is a dangerous stove configuration.

Basically, what I am saying is that with a probe type flue thermometer, you will have the right information to act sooner to avoid any damage to your stove.   A stove top (surface) thermometer has so much lag that it cannot (safely) be relied on to avoid damage to your stove.  Non Catalytic stoves are able to reach such high internal temperatures in such a short space of time (to a large extent due to the way the EPA certification test is run) that I feel it is easy to damage any stove if you don't provide yourself with the means to understand what is happening inside the stove, before interaction with all of that mass.

I happen to be an engineer who works daily with exhaust products, so I have a lot of experience to draw from when it comes to operating something in this temperature range.  I know all the pitfalls associated with interpreting results of measurements of gas vs surface temperature and even of the comparison between measurements taken with a 1/16" thermocouple vs the more common 1/8" units.  This kind of information is simply not available to the average consumer.   It is my humble opinion that the use of surface thermometers is an "old school" tradition that got started before EPA stoves existed.  In the absence of superheated secondary air injection or catalytic reactions and considering that most stoves were "simple" cast iron or steel boxes, using a surface thermometer may have been perfectly acceptable.  Given the fact that both secondary air and catalytic solutions are now in use and that both processes are capable of generating massive exothermic reactions, I think any "expert" who recommends a surface thermometer to a consumer to "help him drive his stove" is doing the community and the industry a disservice.   

We would all do well to prevent the perpetuation of unsuitable technologies that are simply historically entrenched into our woodburner DNA.   Things change, the world moves on.  New technologies require the application of new methods of control.  Here we are, close to 20 years after the initial EPA rules went into effect, still recommending obsolete controls to new woodburners who simply don't know any better.


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## thechimneysweep (Jan 1, 2009)

> Gryf: Just for the record, as a reasonably intelligent and informed stove user, it would be my assumption that if overfire is specified at 600, that I could run it safely consistently at or close to 500 (I should be so lucky...) without a problem, and that the occasional brief spike to 550-600 would also not be a problem, only a reasonably extended (say an hour or so) period at 600 would cause real trouble.



Gryf, I think you can set your mind at ease.  Here's the overfire caution from your owner's manual:

Monitor the stove temperatures with a stove thermometer (available from your dealer) placed on the top center stone of the stove. The thermometer could read as high as 500°F(260°C) on High Burn and 200-300°F(93-149°C) on low burn. *Maintaining temperatures in excess of 600°F(316°C)* will cause the stones to crack and other damage to the stove.

You have posted that your Tribute likes to cruise at 400, and occasionally spikes at 450.  I'd say you have nothing to worry about.

You've also mentioned that your stove only heats about half of your old, 1300 sq.ft.  house in a cold climate, which sounds about right.  In this thread https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/31049/#327970 Jeff says he's heating about the same size house as the OP, which is described as 1400 sq.ft.  

Later in that thread, Jeff states: 





> We have fair insulation and push the temp up in the evening to hold the house over night. So far it works fine. My wife complains it’s to hot when we push the temp up in the evening, but that’s what it takes, with a small stove, even a small soapstone stove.



On the day Jeff posted, Dec. 14, the temperature in his area, SW Nebraska, ranged between a high of 9f and a low of -10f, with winds gusting at 47 mph.

So, Jeff is heating a 1400 sq.ft. house with only fair insulation in below zero weather with his 1.2 cu.ft. Tribute, to a level where his wife complains it's too hot.

Gryf, you have experience with the Tribute.  Do you think the above scenario would be remotely possible with a top surface temperature below 600 degrees?  Now factor in the considerable evidence that Jeff's stove is being overfired: a warped door, a cracked top casting and a 1-1/4" thick slab of soapstone cracked all the way through.

The reason I originally posted to this thread was my perception that Hearthstone, and Jim Casavant (who is a sweet dude), were unjustly getting beat up over this matter.  Rest assured that Hearthstone has access to the same information I mention above, and would have every right to respond to Jeff's complaints as stated in the owner's manual:

*Do not over-fire the stove.
Damage done by over-firing will void the warranty.*

Instead, Hearthstone is sending Jeff a new door/door frame assembly, a new rear stone, and a new top casting at no charge.  To me, this is above and beyond customer service, and is one of the reasons I've remained a Hearthstone dealer all these years.


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## karl (Jan 1, 2009)

My concern with the deal is the statement that the warranty if from the date of purchase.  Most warranties are like that.  However, If you purchased this stove from a dealer and the dealer installed it, then your purchase date is the date of installation.  You may have put a deposit down, but if you made the final payment the day they put it in, thats the purchase date.


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## Todd (Jan 1, 2009)

Jeff may not even know he's been overfiring. His thermometer may not be accurate?


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## johnnywarm (Jan 1, 2009)

there are allot of new stove owners out there this year then ever.why are we not seeing the cracking and warped doors on stoves that are steel,cast in its class ??


It appears the soap stone stoves are fragile at best.


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## KeithO (Jan 1, 2009)

A few additional comments regarding non catalytic woodstoves:

http://www.epa.gov/ttn/chief/ap42/ch01/related/woodstove.pdf (From page 9)
"Based on commercial marketing surveys there are an estimated 9.3 million cordwood stoves in use in the United States. From HPA surveys of manufacturers it is estimated that about *0.6 million of these are certified, non-catalytic cordwood stoves* and about 0.4 million are certified catalytic cordwood stoves (i.e., there are about 8.3 million old conventional cordwood stoves and about 1.0 million certified cordwood stoves in use in the United States).


From http://www.burningclean.com/
"Q. “Once I have preheated my chimney, how should I operate the stove?”

A. Although all wood stoves require preheating during startup and reloading, their operation afterwards varies somewhat. Wood stoves using catalytic combustors require the monitoring of temperatures and air supply to ensure the catalyst engages at appropriate times in the combustion cycle. Generally, catalytic stoves require lower combustion temperatures in the firebox to burn cleanly. At 500-1000 degrees F., the catalyst ignites, burning the volatile gases and particulates. *Non-catalytic stoves attain much higher temperatures in the combustion path before the gases and particulates burn*. Always refer to your wood stove manufacturer’s operation manual and follow the instructions for your particular make and model."

http://www.woodstove.com/pages/combustortips.html
"Q. What about non-catalytic stoves? How do they compare with catalytic stoves?

A. There are a number of good non-catalytic stoves on the market, and some of them achieve clean burning that is almost as good as the clean burn that you’ll get with a catalyst. Our only reservation about these stoves is the way they are built. To meet the EPA standards and achieve truly clean burning, the *non-catalytic stoves have to burn regularly at temperatures of about 1,000 degrees - i.e. the temperature that gasses and particles in the smoke will burn without a catalyst. In other words, non-catalytic stoves have to operate with very hot firebox temperatures to meet the EPA standards - much hotter than catalytic stoves*. Rather than recommend specific models of non-catalytic stoves made by competitors, we offer this advice: If you are considering a purchase of one of these stoves, look carefully at the firebox and the way the inside of the stove is constructed, keeping in mind that all materials and any moving parts are subject to very high heat. If any of the materials seem to be lightweight or insubstantial, steer clear and keep looking. You will want to invest in a stove that is durable, and able to withstand high heat and heat cycling. The catalytic combustor in your stove will have to be replaced every 4-5 years. Its replacement cost (about $100) is a small price to pay for the increased efficiency, clean-burning, and peace-of-mind it offers. And, it’s much easier to replace a catalyst than a warped firebox. "

http://www.mastersweep.com/OPT.HTM
"Unless yours is a very primitive model, you'll find a baffle plate of some kind near the top of your stove. It's between the fire chamber and the flue outlet. This is where the secondary burn occurs. This is where your stove creates a HUGE percentage of the heat it delivers to you! *When the secondary gasses are ignited, the internal temperature of the stove may go from 450 degree's to 1600 degree's!* That is a HUGE performance increase! But, it DOES NOT mean the wood will burn up faster! Such high temperatures create a powerful vacuum inside your stove. You only need a very small intake hole, (e.g. 1/2 inch in diameter) to provide oxygen. That small intake port provides a high pressure, but very small stream of oxygen which enables you to burn your stove very hot, for a long time. By controlling the amount of oxygen that enters the stove, you prohibit the stove from burning the wood too fast.  Even though it is burning much hotter, you can actually burn the wood you do use for a longer period. The amount of secondary combustion that occurs varies widely from model to model. Largely due to advances in heat extraction technology over the years. A twelve-year-old baffled airtight stove can be presumed to operate at about 40% efficiency, while many of today's EPA approved wood stoves exceed 80% efficiency. The main difference between the older wood stoves and today's wood stoves is in the upper baffle chamber, where newer techniques have been incorporated to re-burn and use the secondary exhaust gases."    "**This article was paraphrased from a correspondence with Tom Oyen "The Chimney Sweep Inc.*" You can visit Tom's site at: http://www.nas.com/~chimneysweep  We acknowledge Tom's contribution with gratitude."


Frankly, I think the situation is ripe for a class action lawsuit against manufacturers of non catalytic stoves who A) Fail to adequately define (from a cause and effect viewpoint) what constitutes overfiring of the stove and B) Fails to provide the consumer with an adequate means to monitor the operation of the stove which will *effectively* identify operation close to or into overfire condition.

All it will take is a few scientists, some representative stoves and chimneys, data aquisition equipment for a few hundred hours and the opinion of an expert metallurgist to create a body of evidence that will demonstrate the inadequacy of existing instructions from the stove manufacturers.  Relatively speaking, non catalytic stoves are in their infancy in the marketplace, as demonstrated by the EPA report.  It is entirely possible that the manufacturers are well aware of the inadequacy of their user instructions, but resist changing them since the change may be seen as recognition of their inadequacy.  Unfortunately, all it will take is a sufficient number of failed stoves before a trial lawyer identifies a "business opportunity".


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## Highbeam (Jan 1, 2009)

Todd said:
			
		

> Jeff may not even know he's been overfiring. His thermometer may not be accurate?



Exactly. There are two tricky ways to overfire a hearthstone. 

One is the measurement of temperature. Folks have tested their rutland meters and found 50 degree errors. The realistic burn range of a soapstove is between 400 and 550 vs. the range on a steel plate stove being 400-800+ and even the meter's range of 0-900. We're trying to hold a pretty small temperature range with a measuring tool that is made for large swings. I dispute the assertion that a flue gas thermometer would be superior for the HS stove as the manufacturer has specified a high limit with a specified thermometer style and location.

The other very likely overfire method happens when you have a 550 degree soapstone stove with 3 inches of coals on the bottom and then stuff it to the gills with fresh wood for the overnight burn. You can shut the primary draft to zero and that stove is going to get hotter and hotter until the wood load passes the gas stage. Yes, it will run up at least 50 more degrees with a closed primary air. I would bet that many folks have gone to bed and their stoves just kept on getting hotter. 

It is entirely allowable to void the warranty for overfire and there is evidence of overfire with Jeff's stove. I am not going to worry about running my hearthstone within the allowable range. Funny how there have been threads suggesting that the hearthstone stoves could even be run hotter, much hotter, by comparing to woodstck's limits. I don't care if Jeff was heating a sauna with his tribute, if it was overfired it was overfired. 

I remain bothered by the warranty expiration claim, that's silly. We would all be happier if HS came out and said that the reason for not covering labor is due to obvious overfiring. It is not easy or pleasant for a company man with a high standard of customer service to have to make this accusation to a single customer but the damage of not making the accusation is that we all now suspect the company of being, well, sneaky. I have personally been very satisfied with the customer service and products from Hearthstone. 

When I had my hearthstone's manufacturing defects repaired by a local tech I asked him about these stoves and what he's run into. The tech had a new door frame in his truck for a heritage so I know to watch for that, he had changed out stones and also entire top castings. Seems people will always overfire stoves and that was his explanation for most of the failures he had repaired. When the larger models of stone stove are overfired, the whole top casting becomes warped and sags! He mentioned no problems getting things to seal up after the repairs, I think that was a single dealer's excuse for passing up on the job. 

I also want to thank Tom for contributing to this somewhat difficult thread. There is no easy or nice way to say that the stove looks to be overfired when the operator claims otherwise. We'll never really know how this happened, we weren't there and I don't think Jeff will ever really know. 

When Jeff comes back I think he should be considering selling the stove as soon as possible with or without repairing it. I would never recommend any stove under 2CF for primary heating. Even in my climate.


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## KeithO (Jan 1, 2009)

Highbeam, there are 2 more comments from me on this specific case.

1) Warping and cracking components is typically due to thermal shock, not necessarily due to extended operation at high temperature.

2) We have all seen the signs of classic overfiring/overtemp, wasted away burn tubes, baffles burnt through, insulation blankets glazed and shrunk, ash fused into clinker etc etc.

I don't see these signs on Jeff's stove.  Perhaps if one could see it in person it may be more obvious.

We also know just how "peaky" the burn cycle of a non catalytic stove is.  Particularly with well seasoned wood, there is a very sharp increase in firebox temperature after reloading, and an even sharper increase when the secondaries kick in.  At that time, the soapstone may be down to 200F or less mean temperature.   Once those secondaries kick in, the inner face of the soapstone may reach temperatures over 1000F while the outside is around 200F.   It is these kind of thermal cycles that will crack soapstone.  Cast iron will crack if the heat distribution is sufficiently uneven to generate tensile stresses, combined with the low structural strength of the material at elevated temperatures.  The smaller the stove, the more frequently the cycle is repeated because of a short effective burn time.

I do believe (in the absence of the manufacturer providing a probe type thermometer positioned inside the firebox in a critical location) that the probe type flue thermometer is the best method of avoiding damage in operation for non catalytic stoves. One needs to bear in mind that the temperature in the firebox is higher than the flue temperature, which will be much higher much sooner than the stove top temperature.  The laws of physics are not subject to approval or consent by stove manufacturers, politicians or stove users, so frankly I couldn't care what Hearthstone or anyone else chooses to write in their manual.  All you need to do is evaluate the properties of the materials used in the firebox, then evaluate the temperatures in the firebox during a burn cycle "by the book" and the problems will immediately be obvious.

A final comment on my personal experience heating my 1300sq ft upper level last winter with a slightly larger Morso 7110.   Realistically, I found the Morso undersized for my home.  But it was not damaged in any way, and I was always fully aware of what I was doing, because I had the probe type flue thermometer.  I simply found that to get adequate heat output I was required to reload the stove at strict 4 hour intervals (before the stove temperature dropped too low and too much of the coal bed was consumed).  By frequent reloading, one is able to get the maximum amount of heat out of a small stove, without in any way impacting its reliability.   This procedure is not convenient, and for many people it may not be feasible at all if they have a lengthy commute and no-one is home during the day.  For all those reasons, I changed to the T5, but without the potentially disastrous financial consequences that could have befallen Jeff.


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## gyrfalcon (Jan 1, 2009)

Boy, Tom, I'm still really confused about what you're saying.  And let me say again, I DO NOT have anything close to an overfiring problem with this stove.  I'm only trying to understand the concept here so that when I do go to buy a bigger stove, probably from HS, I will be able to interpret things correctly.

In your email to Jeff, you said, "you kept your stovetop at 500-550 so as not to hit Hearthstone’s 600 deg. ceiling, but this is like having a car that redlines at 6,000 RPM and driving it at 5,500 all the time.  In other words, an upper limit warning is not an invitation to habitually run just short of that limit."

In a subsequent post, you seemed to reinforce that idea by saying "Idon’t believe it is possible to run a stove consistantly in the 500-550 deg. range without repeated spikes of 600+ degrees."

But then you said in your reply to me something that seems entirely contradictory, "I don’t think you need to worry about damaging your stove if you’re burning it the way you say you are, even if you occasionally drift to 600 degs. for short periods."

And then quoted the Tribute manual (which I could probably do by heart now, I've consulted its meager instructions so frequently) "high as 500°F(260°C) on High Burn and 200-300°F(93-149°C) on low burn. Maintaining temperatures in excess of 600°F(316°C) will cause the stones to crack and other damage to the stove."

So which is it, please?  Can one run the stove at 500-550 with occasional spikes over that for short periods or can't you?  Your first two statements flatly stated that would damage the stove, but your last two, including the Tribute manual, say that's not a problem, only "maintaining temperatures in excess of 600" is a problem.

As for Jeff, just for the record, he stated quite clearly in at least one post that his house is 1,000 SF, not 1,400 SF.

More to the point, I'd sure like to know how anybody could possibly get the Tribute up to 600 for any length of time short of packing it with gasoline-soaked rags or something-- particularly in a large open space with only "fair" insulation and below-zero temperatures outside.

If I load mine very carefully with perfect timing with my best very dry medium-sized rock maple splits, close down the primary air at exactly the right steps and get good secondaries rolling, I can sometimes get it to 450, but that's it.  I once had one 'o those spikes for maybe 10 minutes that reached 500.  (I do have an interior flue and superb draft.)

I understand your skepticism about what caused his stove's problems, but it kinda strains my credulity to accept the idea that he could even have been able to run this particular stove in 600-plus overfire range for extended periods.

Somebody in this thread suggested the exact same problems can be caused by the stove getting dropped hard somewhere along the line in shipping.  Especially given the issues his original dealer was having, is it absolutely out of the question that Jeff's right that he did nothing wrong and HS is right that their stove isn't flawed, but instead that it was damaged somewhere between HS and Jeff?  Just askin'.


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## jman (Jan 2, 2009)

I have been following this thread very carefully, I have had a HS Heritage for a little over a month now, and I do love this stove. But I can say first hand I have ABSOLUTELY NO TROUBLES getting this stove to the 600* limit. And I'm not trying to get the stove that high. I wish I could level off at 4-450* but it will get 500* or a bit more regularly. I've done the dollar bill test all around both doors and the ash pan door, and all are tight as a drum. I'M hoping its just me still learning the stove and that I get better at it. I will usually reload when the stove top is around 275-300* do the let it char up for about 10 min then start backing down a little at a time for the next 5-10 min, when i get down to just about shutting the primary all the way off no secondaries going so i turn it back about half way for another 5-10 min. when they do kick in there like an inferno. I seem to get my secondaries going at about 400*
my wood has been cut split and stacked for over a year.
Sorry to high jack this thread but seems like there are some pepole following it with sum knowledge that might help me. Also I use a infer red thermo


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## Todd (Jan 2, 2009)

jman said:
			
		

> I have been following this thread very carefully, I have had a HS Heritage for a little over a month now, and I do love this stove. But I can say first hand I have ABSOLUTELY NO TROUBLES getting this stove to the 600* limit. And I'm not trying to get the stove that high. I wish I could level off at 4-450* but it will get 500* or a bit more regularly. I've done the dollar bill test all around both doors and the ash pan door, and all are tight as a drum. I'M hoping its just me still learning the stove and that I get better at it. I will usually reload when the stove top is around 275-300* do the let it char up for about 10 min then start backing down a little at a time for the next 5-10 min, when i get down to just about shutting the primary all the way off no secondaries going so i turn it back about half way for another 5-10 min. when they do kick in there like an inferno. I seem to get my secondaries going at about 400*
> my wood has been cut split and stacked for over a year.
> Sorry to high jack this thread but seems like there are some pepole following it with sum knowledge that might help me. Also I use a infer red thermo



How tall is your chimney? Sounds like you may have a strong draft and could use a pipe damper.


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## jman (Jan 2, 2009)

chimney is 16' straight up off the top of the stove through ceiling and then roof


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## johnnywarm (Jan 2, 2009)

jman said:
			
		

> chimney is 16' straight up off the top of the stove through ceiling and then roof




Same as i have.why can i run my F400 at 500 with no problems


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## thechimneysweep (Jan 2, 2009)

> Boy, Tom, I’m still really confused about what you’re saying.  And let me say again, I DO NOT have anything close to an overfiring problem with this stove.  I’m only trying to understand the concept here so that when I do go to buy a bigger stove, probably from HS, I will be able to interpret things correctly.
> 
> In your email to Jeff, you said, “you kept your stovetop at 500-550 so as not to hit Hearthstone’s 600 deg. ceiling, but this is like having a car that redlines at 6,000 RPM and driving it at 5,500 all the time.  In other words, an upper limit warning is not an invitation to habitually run just short of that limit.”
> 
> ...


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## pyro68 (Jan 2, 2009)

Jman, you may want to have the draft checked on your chimney. (draft meter) we are running a Heritage w/ approx 20' of chim, can get great burn times with oak & other hardwoods.  A friend of mine lives about 4 miles away, same stove, has higher surface temps and less burn times.  He checked his draft and ended up putting a damper in the pipe, much better for him.  I would never recommend a damper for a new stove unless the draft has been verified.  The cases needing a damper are few and far inbetween around here, but we have seen some.


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## KeithO (Jan 2, 2009)

I might make an analogy to try to put my earlier comments in perspective.   Imagine that when you purchase a new car, the instructions told you to verify proper operation and engine status by measuring the temperature of the hood.   We all know that to keep your engine alive, you need to have coolant and engine oil, and maintain the levels of both of these fluids as well as track oil pressure and coolant temperature.

In the case of a non catalytic stove, failure by overheating is caused primarily by the heat generated through secondary combustion.   If one blanked off the air inlet for the secondary air system, one would find that it is well nigh impossible to overfire the stove.  Highest temperatures would be reached with a fully open primary air control, and reducing the temperature would simply require closing the primary air control.  This scenario apparently applies to over 80% of the cordwood stoves in use, which pre-date the EPA regulations.

The picture with an EPA certified non catalytic stove looks quite different.   First of all, the user has control over only 1 air intake, the primary air and that control has a permanent stop that prevents the user from fully closing the primary air.  The secondary air intake in most cases cannot be closed by the user at all.  Some stoves have a linkage that adjusts the secondary air as a proportion of the primary air, but the fact remains that with the primary air fully closed, both the primary and secondary air inlets are still open a substantial amount.  For many stoves, the secondary air inlet is fixed and permanently open.

So take a typical operating scenario in a cold climate where draft can be expected to be high through the combination of low outside temperature, tall chimney (steep snow shedding roofs) and relatively high indoor temperature.   The user loads up the stove with a fresh bunch of splits, opens the primary air to get the load charred and then closes the primary air intake to the "operational" position.  Once secondary combustion kicks in, temperatures below the baffle may rise to well over 1000F possibly up to the 1400F range.   This high temperature transfers to the chimney (knocked down a bit by heat transfer above the baffle and losses in the stovepipe) which may reach 800-900F.   This high temperature creates a powerful draft.  The draft acts against any point at which air can enter the stove, including 1) primary air intake, 2) Airwash air intake on the front of the stove, typically fixed opening, 3) Typically fixed secondary air inlet.

If the flue temperature were now to reach a critical high level (assuming the user has a probe style thermometer in the flue) what options does he have to control the situation ?  He only has 1 lever to control the stove, the primary air control.  What you will find is that fully closing the primary air control has the effect of actually RAISING the flue gas temperature (and by deduction - the firebox temperature).  Why is that ?  Its simple, by closing the primary air, the draft (provided by the chimney and with no user controls) will simply draw MORE air in through remaining fixed openings, being secondary air inlet and air wash inlet.  Lets not forget the fixed "uncloseable" portion of the primary air intake.  In a situation where the wood is releasing massive amounts of volatiles, the addition of more superheated secondary air is a sure way to drive temperatures higher.  Whether or not the stove temperature declines from this point or stay "pegged" depends primarily on whether the coal bed continues to receive sufficient oxygen to continue "cooking off" the volatiles from the load of wood.

My T5 would emphatically stay "pegged" at 1000F flue gas or more until the volatiles in the wood were exhausted.  The secondary air inlet is hidden under a welded in place cover, preventing even "emergency" action by blocking this inlet with something non combustible like aluminum foil.   For this reason, I cut off the cover so that the inlet can be plugged if needed.  I have in fact resorted to this measure on a few occasions, notwithstanding the fact that I have blanked off the air wash intake and reduced the "fixed" minimum primary intake by more than 80%.   Occasionally one will simply have a highly volatile load of wood, combined with a hot coal bed and high draft conditions that defeat the available controls.

Many will suggest fitting a damper into the stove pipe, and I am sure it would improve control of the chimney draft, but the question is: If a damper is a safety (and durability) critical requirement on a stove like the T5, why does it not come from the factory with one ?   It seems as if the EPA certification process is totally divorced from reality and they have to share equally in the blame for the ridiculous situation we have with uncontrollable non catalytic stoves.   By fitting a stack damper, one is providing the stove user with a giant wrench to completely trash any concept of compliance with the EPA certification.  I don't see any difference to having adjustable stops on the air intakes on the stove and fitting stack dampers, except for the fact that a stack damper makes chimney sweeping more difficult.  Interestingly, it appears that stove manufacturers and the EPA are quite happy to "look the other way" regarding this obvious problem.  Furthermore, the certification process actively encourages this condition by emphasizing emissions testing under low draft conditions.  It should be a mandatory requirement to have to pass both low draft and high draft testing, while maintaining control of the appliance.


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## Highbeam (Jan 2, 2009)

Great post Keith. You get man points for having the nerve to "cut-off" parts of a nice new T5. This info is great and shouldn't be hidden in with a thread about a hearthstone specific problem. The large majority of folks on this site are burning non-cat EPA stoves even if the large majority of burners are burning non-cat airtights.


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## karri0n (Jan 2, 2009)

First off, This is an excellent thread. I extend quite a bit of gratitude to Tom for being willing to research this for someone who isn't even a customer of his, and being willing to do a considerable amount of legwork for something that isn't going to net him a shred of profit. That being said, I can't say for sure that Jeff did not overfire his stove, nor can I say with any certainty that he did. What I HAVE learned, however, is that a Hearthstone Tribute can sustain a *frightening* amount of damage from being overfired in such a way that a normal user may not even notice. I've had my cast iron stove in an extremely overfired condition in which it was visible in bright lighting to be glowing red on the entire stovetop, as well as running it for half a season in a condition below this, but more than likely still overfired, and verified that the stove did not take any signifigant damage from these conditions. (to be fair, I was NOT the purchaser of the stove, and the landlord never told me anything about it. The previous  tenants [read: 12 different sets of tenants] of the house probably ran the thing ragged, as the handle for the primary was missing, which is why I was ignorant to its existence. I'm quite certain I'm not the only one to have overfired it quite a bit.) Not having burned one, I can't say for sure, but due to the relatively small size, I would think the thermal mass that gives the Hearthstone its HeatLife™ is really not worth it for how finnicky the stoves seem to be regarding overfiring. I was considering an Equinox at a later date, but I think I'll stick with cast or steel, considering I'd like to be able to have the wife or kids run the stove when I'm at work without worrying it's gonna explode on me because it was 50 degrees below redline.


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## BrotherBart (Jan 2, 2009)

KeithO said:
			
		

> It seems as if the EPA certification process is totally divorced from reality and they have to share equally in the blame for the ridiculous situation we have with uncontrollable non catalytic stoves.



Amen brother. We need to start a thread on this. All three of my EPA stoves are uncontrollable, by definition, in my opinion. More designed in air leaks than a Swiss cheese wheel.


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## Pagey (Jan 2, 2009)

Excellent post, Keith.  You raise some very valid points.  I find the lack of (total) control on my stove to be hard on the nerves at time, especially in an overdraft situation.


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## karri0n (Jan 2, 2009)

I've never had very many control issues with my EPA stove, but I've also never had perfect wood. I do like the points you raise, though, and I've seen plenty of posts from people who have trouble controlling the stove when the secondary air goes a little crazy.


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## gyrfalcon (Jan 2, 2009)

Thanks for your patience in continuing to revisit this, Tom.

First off, for at least the third time, I  Am Not Worried About Overfiring My Tribute.  Not.  Not at all.  Never.  I couldn't if I tried.  No way.  No How.  Nyet.

My concern-- and continuing confusion-- is over the general principle you're presenting about what constitutes overfiring, but at this point I just give up.

Let me be clear that despite my grumbles about this and that, I have great respect for HS and for its dealers I've had some contact with.  I bought my stove secondhand from neighbors, yet the local dealer and his staff have gone out of their way to help me with the (relatively minor) problems I have had.  And I have great admiration for your willingness to step into Jeff's situation and help out, as well as respond to pestering from folks like me.


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## wellbuilt home (Jan 2, 2009)

karri0n said:
			
		

> First off, This is an excellent thread. I extend quite a bit of gratitude to Tom for being willing to research this for someone who isn't even a customer of his, and being willing to do a considerable amount of legwork for something that isn't going to net him a shred of profit. That being said, I can't say for sure that Jeff did not overfire his stove, nor can I say with any certainty that he did. What I HAVE learned, however, is that a Hearthstone Tribute can sustain a *frightening* amount of damage from being overfired in such a way that a normal user may not even notice. I've had my cast iron stove in an extremely overfired condition in which it was visible in bright lighting to be glowing red on the entire stovetop, as well as running it for half a season in a condition below this, but more than likely still overfired, and verified that the stove did not take any signifigant damage from these conditions. (to be fair, I was NOT the purchaser of the stove, and the landlord never told me anything about it. The previous  tenants [read: 12 different sets of tenants] of the house probably ran the thing ragged, as the handle for the primary was missing, which is why I was ignorant to its existence. I'm quite certain I'm not the only one to have overfired it quite a bit.) Not having burned one, I can't say for sure, but due to the relatively small size, I would think the thermal mass that gives the Hearthstone its HeatLife™ is really not worth it for how finnicky the stoves seem to be regarding overfiring. I was considering an Equinox at a later date, but I think I'll stick with cast or steel, considering I'd like to be able to have the wife or kids run the stove when I'm at work without worrying it's gonna explode on me because it was 50 degrees below redline.



I agree  , I have used  the older HS1  and liked it  we never had a gauge  for temp .It just burned  24/7  since  1984  and is still going . When the secondary   burn kicks in the EQ can get away from you easy . With out a flue damper  there is no way to stop it because the air cant be turned off 100%.  I liked my VCDW extra large stove  and did not have any problems with it  until my son over fired it  last year ,It was 15years old . HS needs to make there  directions much more clear . I also think the stove needs to be  more user friendly ,  and  a damper should  be required on the stoves as a safety .   John


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## jeffman3 (Jan 3, 2009)

Wow! Allot can happen when you leave for a few days. First off I want the thank Tom for looking into the problem, and the thread, and taking the time to interject himself into this situation. Thank you Tom. 

As to thrashing my integrity on the open forum, I am not only offended, but dumb founded. I verified the thermometer before ever firing the stove. The placement is as per the manual. I have run the stove as directed in the manual, and it absolutely has never seen the up side of 550*, despite the assertion you have made. I have run the stove at 500* on occasion, with a temp spike to 550* once or twice, but the normal operating temp is 400*, to 450*, or so. If Hearthstone needs to change there over-fire condition, then they need to do so, but I have fallowed their guidelines to the letter, and stayed within their stated limits, as per Hearthstone Technical Bulletin #21. Publication Date Sept. 1 2006, and the manual.

I agree that the damage to the stove is indeed unusual, that's why I needed some help with the warranty claim. I am a reasonably intelligent and conscientious person, and a person of very high integrity. I am offended that my integrity has been attacked on this matter in the open forum. If Tom wanted to communicate his distrust of me, That's fine, but to call me a bold faced liar in the open forum is, in my mind, not just offensive, but just wrong! I have relayed the information here-in as accurately as I could, and have been besmirched as a result. 

Tom you lost a sale . I was planning to order a stove from you this next summer, or when I could get the money together. Your choice to smear my integrity, and my good name here, cost you a sale. I am a good, and honorable person, despite your assertion to the contrary.

To those that spoke up to help defend me, my integrity, and my position, I thank you, and I will post up the results of this situation, when I get the situation resolved, with Hearthstone, one way or the other.


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## wellbuilt home (Jan 3, 2009)

Good luck Jeff.


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## thechimneysweep (Jan 3, 2009)

Jeff, your integrity was never in question, at least not by me.  As I see it, you needed the maximum heat your Tribute could produce, and were doing your best to run your stove below redline. 

However, given the notorious inaccuracy of stove thermometers and the fact that a stove that has been packed for an all-night burn will often continue to rise in temperature after you've gone to bed, coupled with the considerable evidence of overfiring in your descriptions and photos of the stove, I sincerely believe your stove has been overfired.

I'm sorry you took my comments the way you did, but Jeff, you're the one who PM'd me and asked me to get involved here.


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## KeithO (Jan 3, 2009)

Jeff, whatever the outcome, please get one of these and use it : http://www.northlineexpress.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=5CN-3-39

You will find (after some initial verification) that you never need a stovetop thermometer again, and you may be shocked at what was going on inside your stove previously.

Keith


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## Todd (Jan 4, 2009)

thechimneysweep said:
			
		

> However, given the notorious inaccuracy of stove thermometers and the fact that a stove that has been packed for an all-night burn will often continue to rise in temperature after you've gone to bed,



This is exactlly why I load up my stove a couple hours before bedtime. I've awakened a couple times and go look at the stove and had readings of 725! Luckily no warpage or cracked stones.


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## BrotherBart (Jan 4, 2009)

Todd said:
			
		

> This is exactlly why I load up my stove a couple hours before bedtime.



You too huh? I was beginning to think I was the only one that does that.


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## jeffman3 (Jan 4, 2009)

thechimneysweep said:
			
		

> Jeff, your integrity was never in question, at least not by me. As I see it, you needed the maximum heat your Tribute could produce, and were doing your best to run your stove below redline.
> 
> However, given the notorious inaccuracy of stove thermometers and the fact that a stove that has been packed for an all-night burn will often continue to rise in temperature after you've gone to bed, coupled with the considerable evidence of overfiring in your descriptions and photos of the stove, I sincerely believe your stove has been overfire.
> 
> I'm sorry you took my comments the way you did, but Jeff, you're the one who PM'd me and asked me to get involved here.



The thermometer was verified to be accurate before I did my break in fires. It actually reads high not low) You stated that the stove has been repeatedly run at over 600*, that is absolutely not true. This stove has never been over 550*, and only once or twice at that. I always wait till the temp is stable or dropping before going to bed. I did ask for your advise, given the unusual damage my stove has suffered. I asked for your opinion on how to make it safe to provide heat for my family, and I did all this with a *Private Message*. You decided to make the statement in the open forum that I intentionally, and purposefully, burn my stove in excess of the guidelines laid out in the owners manual, and the Tech bulletin I referenced. That is untrue, I have fallowed the manual to the letter, and by Hearthstones definition, this stove has not been over-fired. Perhaps they need to rewrite the definition to read "If we think it was run to hot, we will void the warranty" But they state specific conditions, vague as they may be, and my stove has never exceeded them.

If this is over-fire, then Hearthstone has misrepresented the over-fire condition in the tech bulletin, and the manual, as this stove has never exceeded the limits there in, measured by the means they recommend in the manual.

Tom, I do thank you for your time, and consideration of this problem, but you have made some statements about me, that are not true, in respect of how I burn my stove.


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## KeithO (Jan 4, 2009)

jeffman3 said:
			
		

> If this is over-fire, then Hearthstone has misrepresented the over-fire condition in the tech bulletin, and the manual, as this stove has never exceeded the limits there in, measured by the means they recommend in the manual.



This is exactly what I have been suggesting all along.   You can't rely on a surface thermometer to avoid damage to your stove, particularly one made of soapstone.  There are important design differences between Woodstock and Hearthstone stoves that are responsible for differences in durability.  1) Woodstock chose a catalyst system that allows the fire to burn at a lower smoldering temperature for extended burns. 2) Woodstock typically has 2 layers of thinner stones compared to Hearthstones single layer thicker stones.  By having 2 layers of soapstone, the stresses on the soapstone is dramatically reduced since the temperature gradient across a single layer is halved.  Add to this the lower internal temperature from point 1 and one has a good case for a durable stove.

I have examined Hearthstone stoves before I bought the T5 and I was not encouraged by the workmanship on the Hearthstone stoves, which is why I stayed away.  The statement by Woodstock regarding the cost of a replacement catalyst compared to a warped firebox is particularly poignant in the context of this thread.   I would have loved to buy a Woodstock stove, but the clearances make it impossible in my home.  I have corresponded with Woodstock with an offer to assist with development of more effective shields to permit tighter clearances, but the company was not interested.  Apparently they have sufficient customers who find the present clearances acceptable.   In future, as the economy and energy costs drive smaller homes, this is going to become a more and more significant problem that I hope Woodstock will address.

Jeff, I am sure all of us who have followed this thread hope that you will at least get your Heritage rebuilt without a massive financial outlay.  I encourage you to fit both a stack damper and the probe type thermometer before operating the rebuilt stove and use the flue thermometer as your guiding principle.  If nothing else, this will certainly avoid damage to your rebuilt stove so that you have the option of selling it and getting a more suitable stove next season.


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## jeffman3 (Jan 4, 2009)

KeithO said:
			
		

> jeffman3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I haven't received any correspondence, about the Tribute, from Hearthstone, sense I left town last week. I will send off an other e-mail. I at least need to get the parts delivered to me, so I can try to fix it, as there is no dealer willing to work on their stoves. I Just can't afford a new stove right now, but with the tax return, and a profit sharing check from work, maybe there will be enough left over, after paying off some medical bills, to look more seriously at a new stove.


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## Frostbit (Jan 4, 2009)

I hope you all don't mind me commenting on this thread. I have been following it since its inception. I am a totally neutral party here, and new to the site, so its just my opinion...

I am sorry to hear of Jeff's trouble with his stove. I really hope he gets it repaired. From the sounds of things, Hearthstone is stepping to the plate. I think the troubleshooting, professional help and consequent comments from Tom are stellar. We should all be so fortunate to get this advice and help. Other posts by obvious reputable and experienced *woodmeisters* contain some of the most insightful and helpful information I have ever read, anywhere, to date. You just cannot get it anywhere else. I've looked.  As a new owner of a recently installed Jotul F400, I learned more about burning wood in these newer EPA stoves in this thread than I could have on my own in months or years. I don't have a problem with being told I may be doing something wrong, matter of fact, I would welcome it. 

I take this all as what it is: Collective, educated, experienced help, and for that I, for one, am grateful.


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## jeffman3 (Jan 5, 2009)

I received an e-mail from Jim today. Hearthstone will be sending all the needed parts, gaskets and cement to me. I will attempt the repair myself. Jim was very gracious in his correspondence. The gaskets, cement and shipping normally would not be covered under the warranty, but they have included them as no dealer will work on the stove.  

I suggested that better operating instructions, limits, and temperature monitoring instructions, be written into the manual. I have fallowed the instructions, and limits, in the manual to the letter, and the stove just didn't hold up as expected. It is apparent to me that the instructions, and recommended temperature monitoring instructions, are woefully inadequate, and truly misleading.

I thank Tom for his time and consideration in this matter. He truly is a very generous man for taking the time to be involved. I disagree with some of the assertions, and inferences, he posted about me, and the operation of my Tribute, but none the less, he took the time to look into this. So Thank you Tom. I also want to thank The members of this forum. You all are the reason this truly is the best resource for solid, reliable information about stove operation, and hearth issues in general, that exists to my knowledge. 

Might I suggest to the moderators, that some of the information discussed in this thread be moved, and posted as an informational piece regarding the proper use and monitoring of new EPA stoves. The information here is detailed, and very helpful. Thank you to all those who contributed. :coolsmile:

Now on to the rebuild/repair! I may need some more help when I recieve the parts.  :red:


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## Hogwildz (Jan 6, 2009)

Man I am glad I got a steel stove. I need things that can take my abuse, and I admit I can be abusive. Not knocking other stoves, I just know I'd destroy a soapstone. I am too clumsy.


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## jeffman3 (Jan 6, 2009)

At some point we plan on putting another stove in the basement, for the really cold snaps. I will be looking for an inexpensive, larger, powerhouse, cast or steel, I don't think I'll go soapstone again. Hearth pad "R" factors and clearance's shouldn't be an issue down there. (Concrete floors, and block walls.) That probably won't happen in the near future, but it will happen down the road, sometime.


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## Highbeam (Jan 6, 2009)

Jeff, glad to see your confidence to tackle this repair. I will be on the edge of my seat waiting to see what's involved.


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## jeffman3 (Jan 6, 2009)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> Jeff, glad to see your confidence to tackle this repair. I will be on the edge of my seat waiting to see what's involved.



I'm confident I'm going to try. :lol: I got step by step instructions from Jim, and I hope that with the help of the good folks here, Jim at Hearthstone, and others, we can get it done. I think we will replace the door frame, and door now, and smear some stove cement on the cracks (as much as I can get to with out taring it down) and try to limp it through till spring. I don't want to get this baby tore down, have trouble with it, and get hit with a cold snap. If I get into it, and something goes terribly wrong, (ie... breaking the stones that have to be removed, and reset in the new top casting etc....) I want to have the time to get a replacement something worked out, before I need to heat my house again. After reading through the multiple pages of instructions, it doesn't seam to awfully complicated, but you know how that goes. :gulp: I think if the rebuild/repair goes well, we will leave the Tribute upstairs, (it is awfully attractive) and look into another, bigger, (cast or steel) stove, for the basement, down the road.


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## pyro68 (Jan 6, 2009)

good luck w/ the rebuild.  
For your basement I would recommend considering the enerzone 3.4 as an option if you have enough sq/ footage to heat.  The walls & floor will absorb a lot of heat unless they are insulated.  The stove comes standard w/ a blower.  Just an option to consider.   
  One tip on rebuilding is to soak the joints with water 2 - 3 days before starting the tear down.  Soaking wet rags laid on the joints so the water can slowly seep into the cement works great.  I'd recommend asking Jim to send you a couple of extra metal spines for between the stones.  Shouldn't cost much, and may be glad you have them.  Feel free to contact if you run into any problems, I'll be glad to help, at  the very least will tell you "I don't know" !!


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## jeffman3 (Jan 6, 2009)

KeithO said:
			
		

> .....Jeff, I am sure all of us who have followed this thread hope that you will at least get your Heritage rebuilt without a massive financial outlay. I encourage you to fit both a stack damper and the probe type thermometer before operating the rebuilt stove and use the flue thermometer as your guiding principle. If nothing else, this will certainly avoid damage to your rebuilt stove so that you have the option of selling it and getting a more suitable stove next season.



I love the Tribute, it truly is just right for us most of the time. I plan on getting a probe thermometer, but I don't really know how to interpret the readings and translate that information into useful action. I don't fully understand the correlation between flue gas temp, and operational actions in regards to my Tribute. Hearthstone only has guidelines as to the surface temp of the stove. Maybe you, or someone, could help me understand what to do, when and why. I understand there is a lag time between burn temp in the firebox, and that heat reaching the outside of the stone, but how do I gauge how hot is to hot, on the flue readings?


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## jeffman3 (Jan 6, 2009)

pyro68 said:
			
		

> good luck w/ the rebuild.
> For your basement I would recommend considering the enerzone 3.4 as an option if you have enough sq/ footage to heat. The walls & floor will absorb a lot of heat unless they are insulated. The stove comes standard w/ a blower. Just an option to consider.
> One tip on rebuilding is to soak the joints with water 2 - 3 days before starting the tear down. Soaking wet rags laid on the joints so the water can slowly seep into the cement works great. I'd recommend asking Jim to send you a couple of extra metal spines for between the stones. Shouldn't cost much, and may be glad you have them. Feel free to contact if you run into any problems, I'll be glad to help, at the very least will tell you "I don't know" !!



Thanks Pyro Have you rebuilt one of these before? I may just take you up on that if I run into problems. I plan to replace the door ASAP, and seal up the cracks as best I can, until spring. I don't want to get in the middle of this, and have a cold snap hit us. I have been told that if I get the door taken care of, and seal up what I can, I should be able to burn until I can get the time to tare this stove down, when I don't need it. If it goes to complete s**t, I can tare it down and do it then, but I really don't want to be with out it right now.

As to the stove in the basement project, It will be some time before I can get into that, but I would like to put a larger stove down there. I would like an honest 6-8 hrs between loadings. I don't need a pretty stove for that, just something I can load up and let it burn all night, and/or day. (I am working the graveyard shift at the plant, now, and sleep during the day :-/ )


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## pyro68 (Jan 6, 2009)

As to the stove in the basement project, It will be some time before I can get into that, but I would like to put a larger stove down there. I would like an honest 6-8 hrs between loadings. I don’t need a pretty stove for that, just something I can load up and let it burn all night, and/or day. (I am working the graveyard shift at the plant, now, and sleep during the day 


Those requirements are why I recommended considering the enerzone 3.4   Name refers to cubic ft. of firebox space.  I would recommend at least 1500 to 1800 sq. foot of space before installing this stove or one that size.  www.enerzone-intl.com   they have a find a dealer page so you can look for someone local.  


I have helped rebuild hearthstones, typically a somewhat tedious but pretty straighforward job.  Important thing is to take your time and not rush getting the stones appart.  I can connect you to guys that do it more often than me if you run into problems     We've found that soaking the joints with water really helps soften that cement.  The good news is they are much easier to take apart after they have been burned than when the cement is green.  I wouldn't worry about burning the stove with the cracks unless you see a good amount of blackening around the crack, creosote leaking or evidence of air leaking.  Smearing the stove cement inside on the cracks would probably give several years or more of burning.  I think it's a good idea to go ahead & do it now while hearthstone will send the stones. 
Happy Burning!!


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## KeithO (Jan 6, 2009)

jeffman3 said:
			
		

> I plan on getting a probe thermometer, but I don't really know how to interpret the readings and translate that information into useful action.



Jeff: If you look at the face of the thermometer, it tells you right there if you are too low, "in the zone" or too hot (overfire).  No interpretation required.


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## karri0n (Jan 6, 2009)

The flue thermo is a decent idea. Because it measures the flue gas instead of the stovetop, the fact that it's a soapstone stove won't really come into account as much as if you were using a stovetop thermometer. If I had a stone stove, I certainly wouldn't trust a stovetop thermometer just because the stone doesn't conduct the heat the way iron or steel do. plus, IIRC, most of the magnetic thermometers are for the external single wall flue temp, and therefore the ranges listed on the thermo itself really don't match up with what you should see from the stovetop, and so this requires you to know about where your stovetop should be and to basically ignore the colors on the thermometer. I like the simplicity factor in that I sometimes might have someone watching the house while we are on vacation, or have the wife run the woodstove while I'm at work, without having to give everyone a two hour training on proper operation of the stove.


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## Highbeam (Jan 6, 2009)

As a strange coincidence, the rutland magnetic surface meter actually has overfire and underfire ranges that align perfectly with Hearthstone's requirements for the stovetop. 

The manufacturer tells you exactly how to monitor their product to ensure that it doesn't overfire. They designed this thing and they are the experts on how to monitor the temperature of a soapstone stove. Second guessing their specific instructions is about as silly as monitoring chimney temp to determine stove temp. 

There is nothing wrong with monitoring several parameters. I am a notorious gauge watcher and monitor strange things in my truck too. In the case of the hearthstones there is a specific parameter that must be monitored and the rest are all a bonus.


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## karri0n (Jan 6, 2009)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> As a strange coincidence, the rutland magnetic surface meter actually has overfire and underfire ranges that align perfectly with Hearthstone's requirements for the stovetop.
> 
> The manufacturer tells you exactly how to monitor their product to ensure that it doesn't overfire. They designed this thing and they are the experts on how to monitor the temperature of a soapstone stove. Second guessing their specific instructions is about as silly as monitoring chimney temp to determine stove temp.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with monitoring several parameters. I am a notorious gauge watcher and monitor strange things in my truck too. In the case of the hearthstones there is a specific parameter that must be monitored and the rest are all a bonus.




I don't blame you for monitoring, but why do you let strange things drive your truck in the first place?


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## KeithO (Jan 6, 2009)

You don't know what you don't or can't measure.  Before being overcritical of the proposal, try a probe style thermometer and compare the readings (not temperature, but which "zone" you are in) from it to those on the surface thermometer placed on the stove top.   If the flue thermometer reads over 1000F at the start of every burn, yet the surface thermometer always shows the temperature to be in a "comfortable zone", what will you make of that ?  

I can see that blind faith in the manufacturer will only be broken by overwhelming evidence of their incompetence.   As can be seen (and read from the manual) if your stove ends up damaged, you can and generally will be denied compensation unless you are able to PROVE that you complied with their instructions.  To provide proof would require instrumenting the stove and continuous data logging, which in itself would likely cost more than the stove.  So in most cases, you end up on your own with the damage, which typically is not a financially viable repair.  Availability of the probe thermometers is pretty patchy.  Generally you will only find them in hearth dealers who really care about helping you protect your investment and don't want you coming back with a damaged stove.  I did not find them at any stove dealer in Jackson, Lowes, Menards, or Home Depot.

With a non catalytic stove, the source of damage is the heat from secondary combustion.  If you keep this below a critical level, it is plain outright impossible to damage your stove.  

I'll try to make a second analogy regarding trying to manage your soapstone stove by measuring stovetop temperature:  Imagine you own a castle in Scotland with stone walls 20" thick.  You do some modernization since the place is a bit chilly inside and install a forced air central heating system.  But through an archaic cultural practice that you don't want to buck, you install your thermostat on the outside of the wall, not the inside.  Of course, since the thermostat is on the outside of the wall, you don't set it to 70F, no, you use the table provided by the manufacturer and set it to 34F (for example).  Now under steady state conditions (outside temperature is relatively constant) this arrangement could work, because heat dissipation through the walls is fairly constant and for a given inside temperature the outside surface of the wall will stabilize at a certain value.   Unfortunately, through the inertia of the mass in the walls and the reluctance of heat to easily flow through all that stone, it is possible that you could ignite 5 gal of gasoline against the inside face of the wall, without noticing a significant change to the outside surface temperature.   Does this mean that burning 5 gal of gasoline will not cause any damage to the building ?  I'm afraid not.   

The response of the surface thermometer simply cannot keep up with events inside, which is unfortunately the location that damage takes place.  So for any application which is dynamic (as opposed to steady state  - like a pellet stove) my assertion is that measuring surface temperature is in fact a SURE WAY to encourage damage to your stove.   Hearthstone simply has not updated the instructions for their stoves, and are more than likely using the same instructions issued for stoves that existed prior to EPA certification.  I suspect this is because the secondary air systems were "grafted into" existing designs (just like one has seen with cast iron stoves), and sold without specific attention being paid to the completely different failure modes that one has with the new design.  In my opinion, not only are the instructions inadequate, but the stove design needed to be changed to better cope with the much higher temperature range brought about by the introduction of the secondary air system.  

But accomplishing these things requires engineering insight, something frequently lacking in our society.  Evidence of the demise of our scientific capabilities is everywhere, from electronics to cars to power generation, to machine tools.  It starts in the way people are educated and peaks in the way our companies (and government) are managed.  The shuttle O ring issue was a classic case of management suppression of good engineering judgment and it was of course the whistle blower who was fired and the managers responsible were promoted.  The same executives now pleading for a bail out will probably be making multi million $ bonuses  in 2 years if they get through the current crisis, but they also got us into it.

[quote author="Highbeam" date="1231281879"]The manufacturer tells you exactly how to monitor their product to ensure that it doesn't overfire. They designed this thing and they are the experts on how to monitor the temperature of a soapstone stove. Second guessing their specific instructions is about as silly as monitoring chimney temp to determine stove temp./quote]


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## Mikeyvon (Jan 6, 2009)

KeithO - If your argument is relevant, would we not be seeing stoves failing at record rates? What is the percentage of failures in Hearthstone stoves? Post EPA stoves? Is this really a large problem or an isolated incidence?


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## KeithO (Jan 6, 2009)

How many people have a good chimney, dry wood, a Hearthstone stove and live in a cold climate ?   How often is the stove oversized and thus "derated" so as not to overheat the living quarters ?  How often is the stove so located that heat cannot effectively be distributed, which again results in the stove being run low to avoid the room being uncomfortably hot ?

How can anyone claim specific statistics regarding failure rates on stoves ?   There is no database with this on record.  Some stoves like the "everburn" models appear never to work properly, even when owned by people who have burnt wood for years.   Yet they are still being sold to an unsuspecting public.  Vermont castings has had enormous increases in customer complaints since the original bankruptcy and acquisition and subsequent outsourcing, culminating in their recent refusal to honor warranties.  Yet you still find their stoves on dealers floors, being sold to an unsuspecting public.

Even in the automotive industry, which is relatively highly regulated through the work of Nader and others, there are cars on the road that may have dozens of known issues.  The only problems that are corrected are the safety and emissions related ones and then only since the government forced the industry to maintain a database of failures and triggered a recall when failure rates rose above a certain threshold.  In the stove industry, the emissions and UL certification are divorced processes, neither of which focus on the functionality of the device (to provide heat in a reliable fashion).

I actually think that now is a bad time for a non expert to be buying a stove with the trouble at VC, Harman, Century getting caught up in the middle and others.  I have no idea how many stoves Hearthstone has sold nor how they were installed or operated.   My criticism is partly based on the fact that Hearthstone do not sell cheap stoves.  An equivalent Pacific Energy stove may be half the cost of a Hearthstone stove and be better engineered by Canadians who live up north in the tundra where people need to rely on their stoves or possibly freeze to death.  Their direct competitor (Woodstock) are certainly differentiated by their attention to detail and good conceptual design.  Soapstone stoves should more than likely never have been built as non catalytics and only time will tell how many of them will be on the junk pile in the next 5 years.

What I can comment on is information from personal experience and issues of general principle related to science, in which I am an expert. 

We cannot undo what has been done, but we may be able to prevent more of the same by following scientific principle instead of dogma.


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## Peter B. (Jan 6, 2009)

I'm inclined to agree with KeithO with respect to flue probe thermometers.

I've always used probes, rather than magnetics... and have to think they are more accurate overall and quicker to respond to changing temps.

At present (though I intend to buy another pair), I've only got one probe... at 12" above my stove top... and rotate it from time to time to drillings I made in the stove, in an effort to correlate temperatures under certain conditions.  Flue pipe and stove top (internal) temps for my set up can differ by as much as a few hundred degrees during different stages in the life of a given fire.

I've found it extremely useful to know the ranges of those relative temps... and now I typically monitor only the flue, knowing that I'm not likely to exceed a (previously observed) high internal stove temperature at a given 'reference' flue temp.

It's NOT an exact science by any stretch, but one can certainly make a useful 'study' of the various temps prevailing at different points on the stove and flue, and come to some kind of rule of thumb that's more reliable than a single monitoring point alone... especially with only a magnetic thermometer.

FWIW.

Peter B.

-----


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## Todd (Jan 6, 2009)

I also agree that a probe would be best to monitor stove temps, but it won't do much good 12-24" above the stove, it needs to be in the firebox or right in front above the baffle where the heat is and I don't know if I would have the guts to drill a hole in the soapstone. I don't know why non cat manufactures don't just install a probe thermometer in the stove as a standard option?


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## KeithO (Jan 6, 2009)

Todd, what you propose is exactly what I believe the stove suppliers should be providing, because it would remove all ambiguity from stove operation.  It would not solve the control issues, but at least you would know what the heck is going on - before anything gets damaged.


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## jeffman3 (Jan 7, 2009)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> ....The manufacturer tells you exactly how to monitor their product to ensure that it doesn't overfire. They designed this thing and they are the experts on how to monitor the temperature of a soapstone stove. Second guessing their specific instructions is about as silly as monitoring chimney temp to determine stove temp.



Here is the Problem, I did fallow the "expert" specific instructions on how to monitor the temperature, and the guild lines and limits the "experts" wrote into the manual. I fallowed the instructions, and limits and monitoring procedures written by the "experts", and my stove didn't hold up. The top casting broke among other things... Now I have people telling me I over-fired the stove, but it never reached the over-fire threshold that Hearthstone has laid out in the manual, using the measuring procedure they recommend in their manual. I have to find a better way to monitor this stove, as the method Hearthstone recommends is not adequate to prevent damage to the stove apparently. My situation proves this, I can't believe I'm the only one who ran their stove "by the book" and had failure of the stove as a result.


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## KeithO (Jan 7, 2009)

Jeff. in reading the manual for the tribute, they do specify their "design" draft level at 0.08"wc (they say in fact from 0.06-0.10" so the midpoint is 0.08").  This is more info than is typically provided.  If I were you, I would install a damper and when you have the stove ready to run again, call your local chimney sweeps to see who has draft measuring apparatus.  80thou is only 2mm of height difference with a water tube manometer, so you would need probably 10x magnification to have any hope in reading it correctly, so this is not an easy DIY problem.   If you can have the draft measured in operation, this would allow the damper to be adjusted to provide "design" draft to the stove.  This would be a good start, if there have been operational problems in the past.  Ideally, this would be done on a crisp cold (representative) day.

Besides that, use the flue (probe) thermometer carefully, and compare with what is going on with the stove top thermometer.  Try to keep the flue temp below 900F.  Above 900 you are playing Russian roulette with a few chambers loaded, based on prior experience.   You may want (as a precautionary measure) to find the secondary air intake and make up a small sheet metal plate that covers (minimum) 50% of this opening and extends past 3 sides of the opening to get a good seal.  Attach this plate with stove cement and allow the cement to cure before burning.  Since you need a fair amount of heat, you will not be burning with the primary air closed all the way (at least not if the draft issue has been resolved).  So the stove can get more air anytime you need it by simply opening the primary control a bit more.  By doing this trick, you will give yourself more control over the stove in case it runs too hot in the future.   It is the burners in Florida who need the huge secondary air intakes, since they burn with the primary closed all the way all the time....


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## jeffman3 (Jan 7, 2009)

KeithO said:
			
		

> Jeff. in reading the manual for the tribute, they do specify their "design" draft level at 0.08"wc (they say in fact from 0.06-0.10" so the midpoint is 0.08"). This is more info than is typically provided. If I were you, I would install a damper and when you have the stove ready to run again, call your local chimney sweeps to see who has draft measuring apparatus. 80thou is only 2mm of height difference with a water tube manometer, so you would need probably 10x magnification to have any hope in reading it correctly, so this is not an easy DIY problem. If you can have the draft measured in operation, this would allow the damper to be adjusted to provide "design" draft to the stove. This would be a good start, if there have been operational problems in the past. Ideally, this would be done on a crisp cold (representative) day.
> 
> Besides that, use the flue (probe) thermometer carefully, and compare with what is going on with the stove top thermometer. Try to keep the flue temp below 900F. Above 900 you are playing Russian roulette with a few chambers loaded, based on prior experience. You may want (as a precautionary measure) to find the secondary air intake and make up a small sheet metal plate that covers (minimum) 50% of this opening and extends path 3 sides of the opening to get a good seal. Attach this plate with stove cement and allow the cement to cure before burning. Since you need a fair amount of heat, you will not be burning with the primary air closed all the way (at least not if the draft issue has been resolved). So the stove can get more air anytime you need it by simply opening the primary control a bit more. By doing this trick, you will give yourself more control over the stove in case it runs too hot in the future. It is the burners in Florida who need the huge secondary air intakes, since they burn with the primary closed all the way all the time....



The problem is there are no chimney sweeps here. People just clean them themselves, or don't do it, I guess. I have called and called to find a chimney sweep. The guy I bought the stove from was supposed to do the cleaning too, but we know how that is. I am on my own. I just don't have the options that those of you in more populated places have. The nearest place to buy a stove, (other then Vogalzang at the farm store) is over an hour and a half one way. I guess I could call him, and see if he does cleaning, but I doubt I can afford the mileage on top of the work. (Maybe I need to look into what it takes to be a sweep? Is there a school or on-line courses someone can take to get a certification?)


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## KeithO (Jan 7, 2009)

It looks like the study materials are about $400 and taking the exam a bit less than $500.  It is operated out of Indianapolis IN.  Details below.

http://www.csia.org/TradeResources/EarntheCCSCredential/tabid/134/Default.aspx

OK, so I still suggest the damper.  You only have to drill 2 holes in the stovepipe in a location that you can get the butterfly into the pipe and hold it while inserting the shaft.  I would recommend above the first join in the stovepipe.  This will allow the probe thermometer to go just below the join (maybe 6-8" below).  The probe thermometer only requires drilling a 1/4" hole in single wall stovepipe.  In double wall you need a 1/4" in the outer pipe and 3/16" in the inner (holds the probe straighter and prevents leakage of flue gas between inner and outer.   Don't forget to remove the probe before sweeping the chimney...

You will have to adjust the damper empirically by running with the draft maybe 1/5th open and then closing the damper until the stove remains "in control" and won't overfire (flue gas less than 900F should really be stable around 600F at that draft setting).  The adjustments need time to stabilize, the fire needs sufficient time to reach steady state.  If you think you have it, check it again next time you re-load.  Just bear in mind that taming the draft will make lighting from cold more difficult.  Since re-setting the damper is not very repeatable (unless you fit a pointer and a scale yourself), avoid the temptation to constantly open it for every cold start and try to adjust it as the load "fires up" since you are bound to make a mistake.   Just do like they say in the manual, which is crack the door until the blaze is lit.


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## jeffman3 (Jan 7, 2009)

Thanks KeithO 

I'll look into the damper, and I am going to order a probe. I am thinking that I may look into further study and possibly certification. There is a definite lack of knowledgeable help here locally. I know lots of people that are switching to burning wood, and some of them are not as concerned about "doing it right" as others. I refer as many as I can to this sight. If nothing else, maybe I could get some side work, (after learning a whole lot more.)? 

Thanks for the info.


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## Highbeam (Jan 8, 2009)

Has Hearthstone ever said that you overfired your stove? 

Keith, does the probe meter go above the damper? I thought it was supposed to but it sounds like you recommend putting it below the flue damper.


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## jeffman3 (Jan 8, 2009)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> Has Hearthstone ever said that you overfire your stove?
> 
> Keith, does the probe meter go above the damper? I thought it was supposed to but it sounds like you recommend putting it below the flue damper.



Hearthstone has never said I over-fired the stove, however Tom made it pretty clear to everyone fallowing this thread that I "nearly beat it to death. ", and I know for a fact he talked to Jim, at Hearthstone, and they collaborated on how to settle this warranty claim. I also know for a fact that Brian, the Hearthstone Rep. collaborated with Jim on this as well. (Thank you Brian.) No one other then Tom has said I over-fired the stove, to me. The one person that _really_ has the authority to say this is over-fire, and we are not going to cover the damage, is Jim, and he has never said I over-fired the stove, thus, they are covering all the parts, shipping, gaskets, and cement for the rebuild. I do truly believe that the airing of this on the open forum has helped my case. (Bad publicity is a death sentence in today's world of the inter-net. Thank you Hearth.com!) 

My real hope is that Hearthstone will change their manual, to accurately reflect the capacity of the stoves. I truly believe that they are intentionally making it seem simpler then it really is, to understand, and control these stoves. It is entirely possible to irreparably damage a Hearthstone stove, with-out ever varying from the written instructions, guild-lines, or limits laid out in the owners manual. My case proves that!


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## karri0n (Jan 8, 2009)

Quick thought...


Soapstone is not magnetic, and therefore a magnetic thermo won't be pressed as tightly to stone as it would be to cast/steel. I can't imagine that heat transfer would be as efficient, but once again, the manual specifically states stovetop thermometer not above 600. If he followed that, he should get a brand new Equinox free of charge


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## jeffman3 (Jan 8, 2009)

karri0n said:
			
		

> Quick thought...
> 
> 
> Soapstone is not magnetic, and therefore a magnetic thermo won't be pressed as tightly to stone as it would be to cast/steel. I can't imagine that heat transfer would be as efficient, but once again, the manual specifically states stovetop thermometer not above 600. If he followed that, he should get a brand new Equinox free of charge



The Equinox would be a bit to much stove for my home! :lol: ,but a new stove would have been appropriate I think, but I am satisfied, with the parts, and supplies to do the rebuild, I just hope that other Hearthstone soapstone owners are made aware that you can damage the stove with-in the limits set forth by Hearthstone. They need to make some adjustments to the manual IMHO.


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## KeithO (Jan 9, 2009)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> Keith, does the probe meter go above the damper? I thought it was supposed to but it sounds like you recommend putting it below the flue damper.



Highbeam:

It depends what you are trying to achieve.   If you want to know how warm the flue is, then you could put the probe 2ft or more above the damper.  Since the damper redirects the flow around it on 2 sides, it has a big "dead zone" directly above the damper plate.   The damper plate also has a fair amount of mass, so in a situation like after reloading where the stove has cooled, the reading of the flue gas above the damper will be lowered by heat absorption by the damper plate.

Since this thread has been about preventing damage caused by high firebox / secondary burn temperatures, I would imagine that we are trying to get the best possible idea about the secondary burn temperature without actually drilling any holes in the stove.   I don't recommend putting the probe directly above the stove connector, since this is another point where the flow has to make about a 90 degree turn and hence getting the probe in the "correct" position can be a crap shoot.

For that reason, about 18-24" above the stove connector is good.  If you think about it, you are giving the flow 3-4 pipe diameters to straighten out and settle down to some kind of orderly pattern (laminar flow, as they would say).  Since the damper plate can extend about 3" below the shaft (fully open), if you go no less than 6" below the damper you should be fine.   Aesthetics will as always (for us married men) play a part in the arrangement, just as long as one doesn't reverse the probe/damper position.

The flue temperature won't change measurably over the 2 ft (unless you take into account the anomalies caused by the flow taking the bend).  This can be verified using an infrared thermometer.  By the time you get to 6-8 ft there will of course be a reduction in temperature, but not nearly as much as what one has outside of the heated space.


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## jeffman3 (Jan 14, 2009)

I received the parts from Hearthstone today.  After reading through the step by step again, I hope I haven't gotten over my head. I plan to replace the door now, and seal every thing up (as best I can) and limp through till spring. (unless further problems arise, and/or I can't control the burn) Sound reasonable?


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## KeithO (Jan 14, 2009)

Did you see this post ? https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewreply/351479/

If the probe thermometer runs over 900F, you will need to do something to get it under control.

Keith


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## Highbeam (Jan 14, 2009)

Sounds very reasonable. I would be pretty liberal with the cement on the inside of that cracekd stone and do a clean job of filling it on the outside.


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## Zulu45 (Jan 14, 2009)

Keith, largely because of your posts in this thread, I purchased the Condar probe flue thermometer for my Hearthstone Heritage and installed it ~8inches behind the stove in the double walled horizontal exit pipe. Since day one of the stove install (early Nov.), I have had a known good surface thermometer on the top center stone of the stove. Surface temps have never been above 550°F . The flue probe thermometer has been installed for roughly one week. If I run the stove with my historical running air intake settings (15% to 50% open) to achive surface temps of 350-450°F, my new flue probe thermometer will indicate exhaust gas temperatures of 950-1300°F . At first, this scared the $rap out of me!  However, after a few days of monitoring the settings and resulting flue temperatures, it became apparent to me that if my Condar probe was accurate, it would be largely impossible to opporate the stove with over ~15% intake air and surface stove temps greater than ~300°F. While I have access to calibrated thermometers good to 550°F (have worked in R&D;~20yrs), i don't have access known good thermometers/thermocouple good to ~1000°F...hence, i have a second Condar probe on the way.

The only confounding factor in my set-up, a ~40 foot interior brick chimney (lined with 6 SS)..it likes to draft! 

Thanks again for the free education in your previous posts,

Tim


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## karri0n (Jan 14, 2009)

Zulu45 said:
			
		

> Keith, largely because of your posts in this thread, I purchased the Condar probe flue thermometer for my Hearthstone Heritage and installed it ~8inches behind the stove in the double walled horizontal exit pipe. Since day one of the stove install (early Nov.), I have had a known good surface thermometer on the top center stone of the stove. Surface temps have never been above 550°F . The flue probe thermometer has been installed for roughly one week. If I run the stove with my historical running air intake settings (15% to 50% open) to achive surface temps of 350-450°F, my new flue probe thermometer will indicate exhaust gas temperatures of 950-1300°F . At first, this scared the $rap out of me!  *However, after a few days of monitoring the settings and resulting flue temperatures, it became apparent to me that if my Condar probe was accurate, it would be largely impossible to opporate the stove with over ~15% intake air and surface stove temps greater than ~300°F. *While I have access to calibrated thermometers good to 550°F (have worked in R&D;~20yrs), i don't have access known good thermometers/thermocouple good to ~1000°F...hence, i have a second Condar probe on the way.
> 
> The only confounding factor in my set-up, a ~40 foot interior brick chimney (lined with 6 SS)..it likes to draft!
> 
> ...



I'm intrigued. How did you come to this conclusion?


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## Zulu45 (Jan 14, 2009)

900°F appears to be the "safe" upper limit for steady state flue temps.....the air intake setting( and corresponding stove temps) in my post above correspond to a ~900°F flue temp...with my suspect Condar probe.


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## karri0n (Jan 14, 2009)

It's consistently 900°F, regardless of north/south or east/west loading, how full the firebox is, outdoor vs. indoor temp(or windy days, other things that affect draft) ?


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## jeffman3 (Jan 14, 2009)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> Sounds very reasonable. I would be pretty liberal with the cement on the inside of that cracekd stone and do a clean job of filling it on the outside.



Thanks Highbeam, I 'll do that. I am really hoping that this all works out. Next, I think I am looking into a blower. (after I rebuild the stove) I just can't put the scratch together for a different stove right now. (or the foreseeable future) I hope someday to replace this stove with something a bit bigger, and also put one in the basement as well, but for now I have what I have. I really need to make this work


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## karri0n (Jan 14, 2009)

The blower will lower your temps and probably prevent something like this in the future.


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## jeffman3 (Jan 14, 2009)

karri0n said:
			
		

> The blower will lower your temps and probably prevent something like this in the future.



That's my hope, that and maximizing the heat distribution. You just can't run these stoves as hot as the manual says you can. You need to keep the temps *well* below the documented high end, to prevent this type of damage.


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## jeffman3 (Jan 14, 2009)

KeithO said:
			
		

> Did you see this post ? https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewreply/351479/
> 
> If the probe thermometer runs over 900F, you will need to do something to get it under control.
> 
> Keith




Thanks Keith


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## KeithO (Jan 15, 2009)

Tim:
I have about 10ft of single wall pipe with a 180 degree heat shield (for the rear wall).  This is followed by about 16ft of class A, so about 26ft total height straight up.  My original Morso 7110 had a distinctly sharp cutoff at the end of the primary air control lever stroke.  Opening that air control lever 1/8" would have the fire blazing when it was fired up, so adjustment of the air control was very sensitive.  Now with the Pacific Energy stove, I could close the primary all the way, and the flue would still run over 900F, sometimes up to 1100F.   So I am not at all surprised that with a 40ft internal chimney you overfire with the air above 15%.

I would expect that after about an hour, the volatiles will drop off and with that the flue temperatures will drop too.  By that time, the stove top temperature should have leveled off and the stove top to flue temperatures should close up some.    The problem with this scenario is that while running flue temperatures in the 1100 to 1400 range you will be doing progressive damage to your stove, particularly if it is not designed the best.   If you keep the flue temp to the 900-1000 range, it will take longer to get the stove top to temperature, but you will get there, because after the violent initial secondary burn dies off things calm down some.   You, like me and many others needs some help in taming the draft some.



			
				Zulu45 said:
			
		

> The flue probe thermometer has been installed for roughly one week. If I run the stove with my historical running air intake settings (15% to 50% open) to achieve surface temps of 350-450°F, my new flue probe thermometer will indicate exhaust gas temperatures of 950-1300°F . ---snip--- it would be largely impossible to operate the stove with over ~15% intake air and surface stove temps greater than ~300°F.  ..hence, i have a second Condor probe on the way.
> 
> The only confounding factor in my set-up, a ~40 foot interior brick chimney (lined with 6 SS)..it likes to draft!
> Tim


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## ftjhs2 (Apr 4, 2009)

I just noticed a crack in the bottom right stone on the side of my Tribute that is leaking creosote, so it is definately all the way through.  After reading this thread, I'm not very optomistic that I'm going to get much help from HS.  I hope I'm wrong.  I bought this thing in Aug and have been very happy with it, but I am surprised this happened.  I have a thermometer on the top and I don't think I've ever seen it go over 400F and no other parts appear warped.  If this turns out to be a problem I guess I'll have to go back to iron.  Slathering the thing with stove cement seems to defeat the purpose of having a nice looking stove.  I hope HS realizes what this sort of thing does to their reputation.  I'll post the response I get from them, I just saw the crack today so it might take awhile.


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## grsimmon (Apr 5, 2009)

I recently posted another thread asking if soapstone is the best material for non-cats.  After reading this thread I'm thinking that soapstone is actually the exact opposite - the worst material for non-cats.  Thanks to everyone especially Keith for all the info.


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## Later (Apr 5, 2009)

Hearthstone tells you how to run the stove - you operate it that way - it breaks - Hearthstone and/or their dealer tells you that you screwed up. I'd buy another stove thinking that Hearthstone may(?) be a good stove, but not for me. Hey I once bought an AMC Pacer, but I didn't buy another.


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## edthedawg (Apr 6, 2009)

AK, Bethel, and Retired - I truly hate the thought of perpetuating this old thread, but them's a heap of blanket assumptions y'all are making.  This thread and the "non-cat" thread referenced both are LOADED with happy Hearthstone owners who have no such issues as the few highlighted.  This isn't hype - it's a good product.  You have to size it and run it right tho.

akburner - how much Alaskan square footage are you trying to heat with that tiny stove?  Just because the stovetop never read over 400 doesn't mean you didn't overfire it.  I'm not saying you run your stove wrong - but you seem to indicate you have a crack in it with "leaking creosote"??  why not share some of the specifics of your situation, setup, and operating methods *in a new thread* and see if we can help.


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## grsimmon (Apr 6, 2009)

Edthedawg said:
			
		

> AK, Bethel, and Retired - I truly hate the thought of perpetuating this old thread, but them's a heap of blanket assumptions y'all are making.  This thread and the "non-cat" thread referenced both are LOADED with happy Hearthstone owners who have no such issues as the few highlighted.  This isn't hype - it's a good product.  You have to size it and run it right tho.
> 
> akburner - how much Alaskan square footage are you trying to heat with that tiny stove?  Just because the stovetop never read over 400 doesn't mean you didn't overfire it.  I'm not saying you run your stove wrong - but you seem to indicate you have a crack in it with "leaking creosote"??  why not share some of the specifics of your situation, setup, and operating methods *in a new thread* and see if we can help.




I have no argument with what you're saying.   I don't doubt there are plenty of happy Hearthstone owners.   I do think that KeithO raised some very good / interesting points however.


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## gyrfalcon (Apr 7, 2009)

Edthedawg said:
			
		

> Just because the stovetop never read over 400 doesn't mean you didn't overfire it.



What????? What on earth do you mean by that?!


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