# Adding secondary burn to this unique stove



## AtomicDog (Jan 11, 2022)

I have a stove that may be perfect for adding secondary burn. I was about to buy a PE Summit, but decided to look into this mod first. The stove has a blower that feeds air through a manifold of welded pipe in the top. It seems like I could weld the ends of the pipes shut and drill a bunch of holes on the inside. The way the stove is shaped should make this work if I understand the process. A lot of hot gasses are trapped in the top section. The air blows through the manifold and out of the ends of the pipes. Hopefully the picture will help.  I would like to keep the stove because it can take 32in splits. This is a front view of the stove and top view of the existing manifold:


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## stoveliker (Jan 11, 2022)

I'd take off the blower then, have the draft suck in secondary air. Otherwise you risk blowing too much (too fast, and hence cold) air in the top.


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## AtomicDog (Jan 11, 2022)

Thanks. My plan is to replace the blower with a valve or shutter. I guess the real question is will I gain anything worthwhile with this mod?


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## stoveliker (Jan 11, 2022)

I don't know... Is that the only air? Was it meant for combustion air, or (b/c blower) just to heat room air to extract heat from the stove?

It won't make the stove go nuclear (x-10 or y-12... - I was at x-10 for 11 years)


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## SpaceBus (Jan 11, 2022)

Other folks have implemented similar designs to older stoves. It won't be a 75%+ efficient modern stove, but it will be a significant improvement over an old smoke dragon. You may also need some kind of baffle for the flue exit to slow down the gasses enough to combust with the additional preheated air from your manifold. As already mentioned, a blower is not going to be a good plan. It will probably pressurize the stove and push smoke out of the primary intake. Your idea of closing off the tubes and putting some kind of valve or slider on the old blower opening is solid. Eventually you will just leave that air control alone once you figure out where it works best and only adjust the original air control.


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## MR. GLO (Jan 11, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> Other folks have implemented similar designs to older stoves. It won't be a 75%+ efficient modern stove, but it will be a significant improvement over an old smoke dragon. You may also need some kind of baffle for the flue exit to slow down the gasses enough to combust with the additional preheated air from your manifold. As already mentioned, a blower is not going to be a good plan. It will probably pressurize the stove and push smoke out of the primary intake. Your idea of closing off the tubes and putting some kind of valve or slider on the old blower opening is solid. Eventually you will just leave that air control alone once you figure out where it works best and only adjust the original air control.


Great info did folks see longer burn times with the new baffle and tubes?

I wonder if somone could buy the pe baffle /tube and get it to work in an old stove.


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## SpaceBus (Jan 11, 2022)

It won't extend the burn time as much as increase the efficiency.


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## Corey (Jan 11, 2022)

Can be done.   A few things for consideration:

Ideally the secondary air would be brought in fairly low... at or below the floor of the firebox,  This will help reduce the possibility of smoke / combustion gasses backing up the tubes and coming out into the room.

Secondary air would ideally be exposed to the firebox internals for a good section of the run, and if you can set up a big chamber so the air slows down and spends even longer exposed to the heat, that is even better.  This helps super-heat the air.  In combination with firebox heating plus heating in the burn tubes, the air can easily be over 1200ºF before jetting out the tubes.  If your tubes aren't stainless, this will eventually degrade them and cause 'burnout'.  But even generic thin wall stainless seems quite resistant.  My tubes are 0.050" wall and see orange-hot heat each season for 15+ years with no notable degradation.

You might look up the pattern / size of holes from an NC30 as some guidance.  But ideally, you're punching an 1/8" hole about every linear inch along the burn tube and at an angle where the flame from any given tube jets downward for a bit, but curves back up so the tip of that flame directly hits the burn tube in front of it.  This helps magnify the secondary burn effect as each tube helps heat the tube in front of it.    I ended up with 4 tubes x ~22 hole each, so depending on the size of your stove and access, that is a lot of drillin' at what seems to be less than ideal body positioning.

As far as air inlets.  I was somewhat surprised on my retrofit.  Air intake about the size of a quarter seems to be about right.  I was prepared for a much larger inlet, but anything more just flushes too much air through, cools the tubes and kills the effect.  Thought I recall seeing a couple others use either a 1" or a 3/4" ball valve.  So again, in that size range.  You certainly won't need a 2 or 3 inch diameter inlet.

It will also be really hard to judge how well it's working if you don't have a glass door.  You obviously can't see through a steel door and the moment you open the door to check, it kills any secondary burn.

Not sure how that 'nub' on top of your stove is insulated.  As mentioned, my tubes easily glow orange hot, so would likely be something you'd want to protect the surface of the firebox from.





						Burnin' Orange Tonight!
					

Maybe this is why they call it 'Osage Orange' aka 'Hedge'?   Just settling down into a nice 700ºF cruise to warm the house up for the evening.  Thought the burn tubes looked nice and pretty orange, so I snapped a photo.  The pic really doesn't do justice to actually being here and feeling the...




					www.hearth.com


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## stoveliker (Jan 11, 2022)

@Blazzinghot also has done this a number of times, I believe.


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## Blazzinghot (Jan 11, 2022)

It would be nice to see a picture of the stove and how it is set up.  Sounds like an interesting project. Cory has made a good point about having the secondary air intake at a lower level which will also help to preheat the  incoming air.  I would like to see how this all plays out when it is finished.  I would start with a few holes and then experiment with building fires in the stove. A person could get to much secondary air. But a control valve as mentioned would certainly help as it would be difficult to figure out the ratio or secondary air to that large of a chamber.  I don't really don't know but wonder if the size of the tube makes a difference for getting a good secondary burn?


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## 3650 (Jan 11, 2022)

I put secondary air in a stove and I used black pipe to plumb it in the length of the stove making a u turn up and back to the middle then over to the center to a stainless steel h shaped barbecue burner. It worked great!


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## AtomicDog (Jan 12, 2022)

Excuse the mess. Work in progress. This is going to an insulated 25ft chimney with a 6in stainless liner.


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## stoveliker (Jan 12, 2022)

I like the blade


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## AtomicDog (Jan 12, 2022)

The pipes have the right ID for a 3/4 pipe plug, so I tapped them.


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## SpaceBus (Jan 12, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> I like the blade


I was going to say the same. They are made of some of the best quality steel you can find!


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## Blazzinghot (Jan 12, 2022)

This gives me a much better perspective of what you are doing.  It seems you are going to cap both ends of the blower pipes  and have the secondary air come in from the location of where the fan used to be?  This is much different than a usual set up and will be curious if it works?  Most of the time the secondary air heats up in the lower chamber with ceramic board and insulation on top  and then exits to the top chamber and out the stack. You have skipped all this and are mixing the two in the same location.  To bad this stove does not have a viewing window to observe the results.  Well never hurts to experiment.  It seems you are moving right along with  this project . Keep us posted with the results.


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## SpaceBus (Jan 12, 2022)

Blazzinghot said:


> This gives me a much better perspective of what you are doing.  It seems you are going to cap both ends of the blower pipes  and have the secondary air come in from the location of where the fan used to be?  This is much different than a usual set up and will be curious if it works?  Most of the time the secondary air heats up in the lower chamber with ceramic board and insulation on top  and then exits to the top chamber and out the stack. You have skipped all this and are mixing the two in the same location.  To bad this stove does not have a viewing window to observe the results.  Well never hurts to experiment.  It seems you are moving right along with  this project . Keep us posted with the results.


If you look at the photo from inside the firebox the manifold should get plenty hot. It's almost tailor made for the application.


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## stoveliker (Jan 12, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> If you look at the photo from inside the firebox the manifold should get plenty hot. It's almost tailor made for the application.


I agree. Nice stove to do this with.


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## AtomicDog (Jan 14, 2022)

Head first down the rabbit hole. Based on what everyone has stated, I really need a baffle to make this work. My idea now is to cut open part of the top of the stove on the front edge, then add another chamber on top with a flue opening. This changes the top of the stove to a baffle. Maybe this drawing will help.




The grey area is the addition. The hatched area is insulation.


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## stoveliker (Jan 14, 2022)

How tall is your chimney? Baffles will increase impedance in your drafting.


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## bigealta (Jan 14, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> I like the blade


Love the blade too!


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## AtomicDog (Jan 14, 2022)

25 feet to the cap. 6 inch insulated liner.


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## AtomicDog (Jan 14, 2022)

No one has noticed the second blade behind the stove. That's a heat deflector for my cat. She flattens out like a flounder under the stove. The blade is there to cover the clean out. There's a door held in place by magnets just below the pipe. I normally have a black ring around the pipe. The flash really makes it look a lot worse than it is. My end goal is to cover that wall in some slightly rusted corrugated metal from the barn roof with the blade on top.


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## stoveliker (Jan 14, 2022)

Your chimney should be ok then (in length). I did notice the second blade. Did not want to comment b/c I try to avoid embarrassing people in case this was "just laying there"...
(I.e. I don't want to have people feel they need to apologize for "the mess"...)


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## Blazzinghot (Jan 14, 2022)

AtomicDog it sounds like you have some good ideas. With the flue on the top you will force the air up and around the secondary burners more like on the modern wood stoves.  How much room to you have from the tubes to the top of the stove?  I was thinking about your project yesterday and was trying to figure out how you could improve it but it looks like you are heading in the right direction.  Sounds like a allot of work but for me it is fun work.  I am not picturing what you are saying about the cat.

If you haven't already you might study some pictures of secondary burners. You can find diagrams on the internet. I was checking my pictures folder but most of my pictures are for a cat stove or a hybrid.


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## AtomicDog (Jan 14, 2022)

If you look at the pic of the stove you can get an idea of the room above the tubes. 1.5in or so. I've been so focused on what to do that I haven't really thought about how to do it. Drilling those tubes from inside the stove is a challenge at best. I can only see three of the four tubes. I'll have to use an angle drill and mirror to get that first one. Still a lot more fun than just buying a new stove. I'll probably install a thermocouple between two of the tubes since I don't have a window. I should be able to detect the secondary burn that way.


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## bholler (Jan 14, 2022)

I like your plans and they will probably improve the efficiency of the stove quite a bit.  But honestly insulating the basement walls will make far more impact.


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## Blazzinghot (Jan 14, 2022)

I would think that putting in new tubes would be easier  under the used to be air tubes.  The work could be done without cutting off the top of the stove. But I don't know the distance from the bottom of the inside of the fire box to the now existing air tubes.  I have a couple of times been able to put in secondary air tubes without cutting off the lid. Others on this forum have also done it by using black stove pipe.

You could build the whole system and then slip in in through the door and then have a hole drilled for the intake for secondary air and weld the unit in place.  And you don't have to think round you can use square tubing. Here is a method I used without cutting the stove that worked real well for me see picture.  I brought in two secondary air burners using rectangular tubing.


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## AtomicDog (Jan 14, 2022)

I have a lot of room to work with. This would also allow me to keep my blower,  have the intake lower, and a longer path for the air to heat up. Looks like I can fabricate everything ahead of time. Worst case this just becomes a firebox for my next BBQ smoker build.


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## AtomicDog (Jan 14, 2022)

I'll insulate the basement walls, but that's a huge summertime project. The basement is my workshop, so every wall has cabinets, work benches or shelves. Almost the entire basement is under ground. The only wall that isn't is the one with the stove, and its the end of the house. I guess I need to look at options. I like the durability of block walls.


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## bholler (Jan 14, 2022)

AtomicDog said:


> I'll insulate the basement walls, but that's a huge summertime project. The basement is my workshop, so every wall has cabinets, work benches or shelves. Almost the entire basement is under ground. The only wall that isn't is the one with the stove, and its the end of the house. I guess I need to look at options. I like the durability of block walls.


Under ground is just as bad.  That ground eats up lots of BTUs as well.


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## Blazzinghot (Jan 14, 2022)

AtomicDog,  Just a couple more suggestions before you start grinding and welding is make sure you have a way to install the baffle above the new secondary burners as you are designing it. The Lopi woods stoves used to use bricks for the baffle above the burner  but whatever you use  also watch your clearances so your fire can wrap around the baffle  and go up the flue so you don't have smoke coming out the door every time you open it.  Have fun.


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## MR. GLO (Jan 14, 2022)

Blazzinghot said:


> AtomicDog,  Just a couple more suggestions before you start grinding and welding is make sure you have a way to install the baffle above the new secondary burners as you are designing it. The Lopi woods stoves used to use bricks for the baffle above the burner  but whatever you use  also watch your clearances so your fire can wrap around the baffle  and go up the flue so you don't have smoke coming out the door every time you open it.  Have fun.


Would insulation be OK to add? By installing,  so it sits on top of the baffle?


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## Blazzinghot (Jan 14, 2022)

MR. GLO,  Some of the newer stoves are using stainless steel baffles with  insulation blanket on top. Some use ceramic boards with insulation  blanket on top and others bricks. Some of the older stoves were using 1/2 steel plating  but the would warp over time.  Then there is me who has tried Hardie panel but it does get brittle over time.  So now I use stainless steel when I can get it from the recycle yard.


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## MR. GLO (Jan 14, 2022)

Thanks. I was going to use stainless steel too  but wondering if it's OK or worth putting a blanket on top.  If so just lay it on top?


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## SpaceBus (Jan 14, 2022)

I think an insulation blanket would only help. Lining the firebox with some form of refractory will also help things out.


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## AtomicDog (Jan 15, 2022)

Blazzinghot, 20 inches from the bottom to the existing tubes. 

My plan was to put the insulation between the tubes and the top of the stove, which would become the baffle. I suppose I could cut this out and replace it with stainless if the .250 steel wouldn't hold up.


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## Blazzinghot (Jan 15, 2022)

Mr. Glow  yes SpaceBus is correct. I try to remember that secondary air needs to be hot. The newer stoves have the stainless steel and the insulated blanket some others have  a ceramic board with insulation on top. 

AtomicDog, You want to have the baffle as close as possible to the secondary burn tubes as possible so the heat radiates off the baffle on them. Secondary combustion starts at about 1200 degrees. 

In my mind I would think it would be better to have the baffle with the insulated blanket right on top of the secondary air tubes.  The idea is to get those tubes nice and hot.  I would put the secondary air tubes just blow the upper camber with baffle and insulation to allow a couple of inches  on the front end toward the door for air to pass up into the top chamber.  That is if you still plan to put the flue on the top which I think is a good idea. If you leave the top air pipes open the heat can swirl around them better and you will have some good hot air blowing out through them with the fan. Hope this makes sense.  If  you need a diagram let me know but at the same time I want you to dream and built this stove  your way as this is half the fun.  If  you have other questions I will do my best to help. There are other members of this forum who have put in secondary burn tubes so hope they can share their experience.


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## snobuilder (Jan 16, 2022)

Blazzinghot said:


> Mr. Glow  yes SpaceBus is correct. I try to remember that secondary air needs to be hot. The newer stoves have the stainless steel and the insulated blanket some others have  a ceramic board with insulation on top.
> 
> AtomicDog, You want to have the baffle as close as possible to the secondary burn tubes as possible so the heat radiates off the baffle on them. Secondary combustion starts at about 1200 degrees.
> 
> In my mind I would think it would be better to have the baffle with the insulated blanket right on top of the secondary air tubes.  The idea is to get those tubes nice and hot.  I would put the secondary air tubes just blow the upper camber with baffle and insulation to allow a couple of inches  on the front end toward the door for air to pass up into the top chamber.  That is if you still plan to put the flue on the top which I think is a good idea. If you leave the top air pipes open the heat can swirl around them better and you will have some good hot air blowing out through them with the fan. Hope this makes sense.  If  you need a diagram let me know but at *the same time I want you to dream and built this stove  your way as this is half the fun*.  If  you have other questions I will do my best to help. There are other members of this forum who have put in secondary burn tubes so hope they can share their experience.


 In bold /red. This is very refreshing to read on this  mostly helpful website. I am following this thread as I added a controlled secondary burn tube array to my DAKA  wood furnace. It shows signs of catching a secondary burn but I think the temps aren't high enough through the entire burn cycle. I will be adding a ceramic insulating panel above the tubes .


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## Blazzinghot (Jan 16, 2022)

snobuilder,  I am still learning about wood stoves so had to look up what a DAKA wood furnace to see what it looked like. I found an older none EPA picture of one.  Yes, it would be hard to get a good secondary burn with out a baffle and insulation of some kind. If you study the wood stoves today most bring in the secondary air from the bottom back of the stove as the fire torches the back wall of the stove or furnace.  This way the air gets heated before it gets to the secondary burn tubes.  Hope you get DAKA  secondary burn working.


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## snobuilder (Jan 17, 2022)

Blazzinghot said:


> snobuilder,  I am still learning about wood stoves so had to look up what a DAKA wood furnace to see what it looked like. I found an older none EPA picture of one.  Yes, it would be hard to get a good secondary burn with out a baffle and insulation of some kind. If you study the wood stoves today most bring in the secondary air from the bottom back of the stove as the fire torches the back wall of the stove or furnace.  This way the air gets heated before it gets to the secondary burn tubes.  Hope you get DAKA  secondary burn working.


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## bholler (Jan 17, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> View attachment 290085
> View attachment 290086
> View attachment 290087
> View attachment 290088


Wow that looks like one hell of a hot spot at the back of the stove.   Keep a close eye on that area


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## Blazzinghot (Jan 17, 2022)

snowbuilder, looks like you used  stainless steel tubing for your secondary air tubes correct? That is a very interesting set up you have. It is always nice to see what others are doing  to improve their wood stoves. Thanks for the pictures. I certainly agree that is one very big white spot on the back of your stove you might consider a  1/2 steel shield  inside the stove to protect the back wall. you certainly have plenty of heat to warm up the secondary air so  it should work. Keep us posted  on if your secondary burners become more effective.


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## snobuilder (Jan 17, 2022)

Blazzinghot said:


> snowbuilder, looks like you used  stainless steel tubing for your secondary air tubes correct? That is a very interesting set up you have. It is always nice to see what others are doing  to improve their wood stoves. Thanks for the pictures. I certainly agree that is one very big white spot on the back of your stove you might consider a  1/2 steel shield  inside the stove to protect the back wall. you certainly have plenty of heat to warm up the secondary air so  it should work. Keep us posted  on if your secondary burners become more effective.


Tubes are 1/2" black pipe that threads in if replacement is needed.

I actually run this stove extremely low most of the time. After using my new IR thermometer and realized this I cranked it up today to get the afterburners to fire. The Rutland stove pipe gage which was around 150 went into the burn zone .

Back wall of stove is getting new fire brick and I will see if I can add more height to it. Like another layer sideways.


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## Blazzinghot (Jan 18, 2022)

snobuilder, Thanks for the explanation. How are you able to tell if the secondary burners are working?  Have you tried to put a flame via a match or lighter to see if the secondary air tubes are pulling in air at the inlet?  I am sure you have been checking the smoke coming out of the top  of the chimney.  Keep us posted on your progress.


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## snobuilder (Jan 18, 2022)

Blazzinghot said:


> snobuilder, Thanks for the explanation. How are you able to tell if the secondary burners are working?  Have you tried to put a flame via a match or lighter to see if the secondary air tubes are pulling in air at the inlet?  I am sure you have been checking the smoke coming out of the top  of the chimney.  Keep us posted on your progress.


No smoke at chimney top. Without  glass door, I open door after checking chimney top and will see a clean burn going on at and around the tubes. One  issue I'm noticing is the stove is fairly tall inside so the secondary burn isn't as affective once the pile burns down.
I do get a convective draw into the square tube at the floor but am also trying out a small low speed fan to add a little boost.


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## bholler (Jan 18, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> No smoke at chimney top. Without  glass door, I open door after checking chimney top and will see a clean burn going on at and around the tubes. One  issue I'm noticing is the stove is fairly tall inside so the secondary burn isn't as affective once the pile burns down.
> I do get a convective draw into the square tube at the floor but am also trying out a small low speed fan to add a little boost.


Put a baffle in not a fan forced secondary air is asking for trouble


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## Blazzinghot (Jan 18, 2022)

snobuilder,  Did you already install the baffle as you mentioned in one of your posts? If you have a good draft on the chimney and a good air tight stove it should pull in plenty of secondary air without a blower fan. It depends on how many air holes you drilled and what size they are. I built one stove for my shop and did not drill enough holes in the secondary burn tubes  and it was a real pain drilling holes after the fact.


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## snobuilder (Jan 18, 2022)

Its a work in progress and is my everyday stove. Next addition will be the ceramic insulation panel above the tubes when it gets here. 
I don't mean to hijack the thread on the OP, just posted some pics of my similar mod.


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## bholler (Jan 19, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> Its a work in progress and is my everyday stove. Next addition will be the ceramic insulation panel above the tubes when it gets here.
> I don't mean to hijack the thread on the OP, just posted some pics of my similar mod.


I don't see it as hijacking.  Your experience with your setup is applicable for them.


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## Blazzinghot (Jan 19, 2022)

Looks like bholler already stated what I was thinking when I read this last night.  You showing the pictures of your stove will give others ideas on  adding secondary burners. I am sure that AtomicDog is busy working on his wood stove so hopefully will give an update on the results when he is finished.


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## snobuilder (Jan 20, 2022)

One new addition is this plenum to hold the heat around the secondary manifold in an attempt to pre-heat the incoming secondary air to higher temps.


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## Blazzinghot (Jan 20, 2022)

snobuilder,  that is a well built box you put around your secondary  air intake tubes. I am sure it will help along with the ceramic board with the secondary tubes insides the wood stove.   I hope this will make the secondary burn improve.  But is you already are getting clean smoke it sounds like something is working right.


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## AtomicDog (Jan 26, 2022)

Sorry. Still following. We've hit a cold snap so I'm holding off on hacking up my stove. Thanks for the additional information snobuilder. I'm still trying to wrap my head around all of the variables involved. Air temp, baffle, number of holes, draft, type of steel, thickness, flue location, insulation, secondary chamber size......... I miss the old days when you just opened the door and tossed in something that looked like it might burn. The biggest hazard was a nail in your tire from where you dumped the ashes. The door knobs and hinges are easy to spot.


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## Blazzinghot (Jan 26, 2022)

AtomicDog, Thanks for getting back with us. I sometimes feel the same way you do about the good old days of just tossing in a log and closing the door.  While you are waiting for a warm day to work on you stove take some time to read about secondary burners and sometimes you can find different diagrams on the internet on how they work.  

Almost every time I sell a wood stove with secondary burners the person buying the wood stove does not have a clue about secondary burners. I try to explain to them how it their new wood stoves work. Sometimes they give me a blank stare as it is totally new to them.  So you are not alone. When I first joined this forum I did not have clue myself.  But it is not really that complicated once you understand the main principles. But there is always a learning curve when we learn new things.


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## AtomicDog (Jan 27, 2022)

So if I understand this correctly:

I need to create a secondary chamber by installing a baffle
This chamber will consist of the burner pipes and new flue opening
There needs to be a path for combustible gasses to flow from the fuel chamber to the secondary combustion chamber
The baffle needs to be removable for cleaning
I _think_ I understand the process. What I'm trying to determine is what affect different variables in the design have on the function, such as the size of the upper chamber, placement of insulation, etc.. I do tend to over complicate things.....


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## bholler (Jan 27, 2022)

AtomicDog said:


> So if I understand this correctly:
> 
> I need to create a secondary chamber by installing a baffle
> This chamber will consist of the burner pipes and new flue opening
> ...


You are not creating a secondary combustion chamber.  You are simply adding a baffle which will increase firebox temps and extend the smoke path.  The secondary air tubes go under the baffle and inject fresh air into the firebox above the fuel.


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## Blazzinghot (Jan 27, 2022)

AtomicDog, As stated you are making a baffle over the top of your burn tubes to reflect more heat on them. The top side of the chamber is for the fire to escape out through the flue. The insulation goes on top of the baffle (or what every you decide to use) is to increase heat temps on the bottom side of the baffle in the location of the heat tubes. The air coming out of the heat tubes mixes in the lower part of the stove and creates the secondary burn there then it swirls around the end of the baffle to the topside out the flue.  Take a look at this post   https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/diy-secondary-combustion-air.178840/  This will give you a reference point of how this works.


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## snobuilder (Feb 1, 2022)

So just a quick update on my DAKA  add on wood furnace . My  initial secondary air supply as pictured in post 52 doesn't get hot enough for a good tertiary burn off although it WAS burning cleaner at times. My latest set up made of 1x2 tube steel and reuse of  slotted 1/2 "  blk. pipe sits inside the  stove similar to  the set up in my pleasant hearth stove.
The box tubing as in pic 52 now supplies air as well as 2 new 1x2"  intakes cut in at the bottom front of stove. First fire last night showed a better secondary burn off yet smokey when large splits were added. Today  I used resplit large wood and it runs pretty much smoke free.
I have a make shift baffle set up that will be improved when I get my insulated panel.  I also will be raising the floor/grate to make a smaller  height box. 20+" now.


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## Blazzinghot (Feb 1, 2022)

snobuilder,  Looks like you are on your way to improving you wood stove. The flame on the lighter is pulling in good secondary air at the intake. No smoke coming out the chimney is certainly a good sign something is working right. You will get smoke sometimes depending on the inside temp of the stove. The secondary on my homemade shop stove works with no smoke only when the top of the stove gets about 400 degrees. It was not my best build. Do you have a wood stove thermostat to check the outside temp of the wood stove?  I am anxious to see what happens when you get your insulated panel.


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## snobuilder (Feb 2, 2022)

Blazzinghot said:


> snobuilder,  Looks like you are on your way to improving you wood stove. The flame on the lighter is pulling in good secondary air at the intake. No smoke coming out the chimney is certainly a good sign something is working right. You will get smoke sometimes depending on the inside temp of the stove. The secondary on my homemade shop stove works with no smoke only when the top of the stove gets about 400 degrees. It was not my best build. Do you have a wood stove thermostat to check the outside temp of the wood stove?  I am anxious to see what happens when you get your insulated panel.


I scan the stove in various hot spots and am running 350 to 550. External single wall pipe temp is just into the burn zone.

Raised the grate 4" to shrink the space between load and tubes. With the half splits it lights and burns clean almost instantly.
 I'm not seeing a gas grill type of secondary burn but the chimney shows clean and hot.
I will be putting slide dampers on the 2 new secd. air  intakes as I think the wood is burning a bit fast even though the primary air intake is set lower than normal.


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## bholler (Feb 2, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> I scan the stove in various hot spots and am running 350 to 550. External single wall pipe temp is just into the burn zone.
> 
> Raised the grate 4" to shrink the space between load and tubes. With the half splits it lights and burns clean almost instantly.
> I'm not seeing a gas grill type of secondary burn but the chimney shows clean and hot.
> I will be putting slide dampers on the 2 new secd. air  intakes as I think the wood is burning a bit fast even though the primary air intake is set lower than normal.


Does this stove have a glass door?


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## Blazzinghot (Feb 2, 2022)

bholler, I don't think this DAKA has a window. This is a long thread but it seems like this was discussed. But snobuilder can correct me if I am wrong.

snobuilder,  it would be hard for you to see the secondary burn because when you open the door to see the fire the air then is drawn in through the door opening and the secondary air draft weakens. There is also allot of discussion over what a secondary burn looks like. You don't always get that nice propane type flame you see on a burner.  It depends on the draft and how much primary air is coming into the stove. Sometimes I get nice blue flames that dance in mid air in front of the glass which is a good sign of a good secondary burn. But then it also depends on the type of wood being used. I am sure you have read some of the posts on secondary burns and what they look like.


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## snobuilder (Feb 2, 2022)

No window, I sneak a peak with the door cracked  but that is still a  lot of air intake . Overall It is burning  good and hot on less primary intake air  but also burning  as fast as before the secondary system. I do believe it is putting out more heat though. Temps are back down in this area so today will tell as more of a fair comparo.  So far It is worth the effort . This stove was a "smoke dragon" before. Mostly due to operating it in the "creosote temp" range to get a long burn out of it. Even If I go through the same amount of wood, it's a win. Time will tell.


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## bholler (Feb 2, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> No window, I sneak a peak with the door cracked  but that is still a  lot of air intake . Overall It is burning  good and hot on less primary intake air  but also burning  as fast as before the secondary system. I do believe it is putting out more heat though. Temps are back down in this area so today will tell as more of a fair comparo.  So far It is worth the effort . This stove was a "smoke dragon" before. Mostly due to operating it in the "creosote temp" range to get a long burn out of it. Even If I go through the same amount of wood, it's a win. Time will tell.


Opening the door at all will instantly kill the secondary combustion.  Adding secondary combustion also won't change your burn times at all on its own   just give you more complete combustion.  It may or may not give you more heat out of each piece of wood


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## snobuilder (Feb 17, 2022)

New update. I added a 6x6 glass panel to the door last night and also now have a better baffle in place above the 4 burn tubes.
So I was able to view my burn for the first time. What I saw was impressive and even had the " gas grill" effect at times.
Unfortunately without  an air wash the glass sooted up after 40 minutes or so.
I also lowered the grate back down from 4" to 2" above factory level. Next I will try to achieve a longer burn time.


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## Blazzinghot (Feb 17, 2022)

snobuilder, I noticed on one of the other posts you stated you ordered a glass window for your wood stove. I know the feeling when you are able to see the fire and watch the secondary burn in action. I had a stove I made from wheel rims with a secondary burner and the only way I could seen inside  was from a hole in one of the rims from the tire stim I forget to  weld shut. Ha I could not see much so just put a bolt in the hole. 

 I was wondering how the window was going to work without a air wash system but sometimes is you wait and as the fire gets hotter the soot will burn off the glass. The secondary burn can vary depending on the draft and wood. Most of the time I get nice dancing yellow mixed with blue flames which I enjoy watching.  Sounds like you have drastically improved your wood stove.


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## snobuilder (Feb 17, 2022)

Blazzinghot said:


> snobuilder, I noticed on one of the other posts you stated you ordered a glass window for your wood stove. I know the feeling when you are able to see the fire and watch the secondary burn in action. I had a stove I made from wheel rims with a secondary burner and the only way I could seen inside  was from a hole in one of the rims from the tire stim I forget to  weld shut. Ha I could not see much so just put a bolt in the hole.
> 
> I was wondering how the window was going to work without a air wash system but sometimes is you wait and as the* fire gets hotter the soot will burn off the glass.* The secondary burn can vary depending on the draft and wood. Most of the time I get nice dancing yellow mixed with blue flames which I enjoy watching.  Sounds like you have drastically improved your wood stove.


This unit is in the basement so it isn't a center piece for fire viewing. I have an excellent glass cleaner that will clean it up during cool downs and restarts.


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## MR. GLO (Feb 19, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> This unit is in the basement so it isn't a center piece for fire viewing. I have an excellent glass cleaner that will clean it up during cool downs and restarts.



Check the smoke at first burn of the day.  My old stove burned no smoke but the first burn was a bunch of gray smoke each day for 10 min or so.  

Let us know if you see any longer burn times.


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## clancey (Feb 19, 2022)

What kind of glass cleaner are you using snobuilder for I have read that one needs to be very careful with the choice because something like windex I think would scratch the stove glass and make permanent damage--do not know if this is true buts that what I heard...clancey


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## snobuilder (Feb 19, 2022)

clancey said:


> What kind of glass cleaner are you using snobuilder for I have read that one needs to be very careful with the choice because something like windex I think would scratch the stove glass and make permanent damage--do not know if this is true buts that what I heard...clancey


Meeco Brand

I found I can use a razor blade scraper when it isn't cool enough to use cleaner.


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## bholler (Feb 19, 2022)

clancey said:


> What kind of glass cleaner are you using snobuilder for I have read that one needs to be very careful with the choice because something like windex I think would scratch the stove glass and make permanent damage--do not know if this is true buts that what I heard...clancey


Windex is fine but won't do much to clean creosote.  Honestly I use a torch lots of times to start if the glass is bad.


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## clancey (Feb 19, 2022)

Why not use the wood ash because that cleans it real well...clancey


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## bholler (Feb 19, 2022)

clancey said:


> Why not use the wood ash because that cleans it real well...clancey


Wood ash does work very well for light buildup


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## snobuilder (Feb 20, 2022)

Window to my hearth....LOL




Your browser is not able to display this video.


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## begreen (Feb 20, 2022)

That's a nice sight.


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## Blazzinghot (Feb 21, 2022)

snobuilder, that looks super. A job well done. All you efforts paid off a very  nice flames in this fire. Wow


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## stoveliker (Feb 21, 2022)

What i don't understand is why you need second air for this. My stove does not have secondary air and I see the same flames wafting around in the top of the firebox (depending on primary air settings)?


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## Blazzinghot (Feb 21, 2022)

stoveliker, the only way for snobuilder to show a difference would be for him to turn off the secondary air and build very similar fire the same size with the same wood. This way he could get a comparison. A secondary burn from my observation is different from the aspect that you see a hotter flame with less yellow and more bright orange with blue. This also depends on the wood being burned. I have some old very dry pine wood that burns yellow with some blue but still is smoke free. The other factor is to check to see how the smoke is being burned by looking at the top of the chimney. There are times from my experience when a wood stove without a secondary burn system will burn hot is when it gets into the red-hot coal stage and very little smoke is seen coming from the flue. But for the most part there is smoke the rest of the time.

I have seen many different stoves fires over the last couple of years from the stoves I have cleaned up and sold. For me personally there is a difference in the way a secondary system burns as compared to one without. It is something a person must experience by seeing both in action in real life.

I sold my Country Stricker a couple of weeks ago and I took the guy into my home to show him what a secondary burn looks like and he stood there in silence for the longest time. He gave me a deposit on for the stove and came back a few days later to pick up the stove and asked if he could show his friend my Jotul so he could see the fire.

The Jotul for example has a different secondary burn from all the others stoves I have owned. I am thinking that each stove may unique in how it burns wood.


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## snobuilder (Feb 21, 2022)

That video shows the burn literally 5 minutes after 2 x 5" splits were added to coals. The secondary burn comes on quickly. It seems the air tubes draw the heat and flames as you see happening.
I did close the tube intakes for a bit and the action pretty much stopped.

I agree this same stove without secondary air, in later coal stage, would also burn smoke free. Now it burns clean earlier .
Flames are blue off camera....window has tint and phone skews the color.


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## snobuilder (Feb 22, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> What i don't understand is why you need second air for this. My stove does not have secondary air and I see the same flames wafting around in the top of the firebox (depending on primary air settings)?


 Just to be clear, are you saying the EPA instigated stoves are not necessary for a clean burn?


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## stoveliker (Feb 22, 2022)

No, I did not say that. 

I am saying that your flames are not only possible when you have secondary air.

Comparing to the active jet like flames I see on other tube stoves, I think that these lazy flames actually don't burn all half burnt gases.


Also, You can see my stove in my signature line. I don't have secondary air. I do have these flames (depending on air setting). But when I do my cat shows there is a lot left to burn through, suggesting that the presences of these lazy secondary flames does not necessarily indicate a burn that is complete.


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## bholler (Feb 22, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> Just to be clear, are you saying the EPA instigated stoves are not necessary for a clean burn?


I am curious why if you dislike the innovations brought forth by the EPA regulations so much why are you trying to copy them?


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## all night moe (Feb 23, 2022)

This was a good thread to read along on.....


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## snobuilder (Feb 23, 2022)

all night moe said:


> This was a good thread to read along on.....


  Agree.


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## snobuilder (Mar 6, 2022)

bholler said:


> I am curious why if you dislike the innovations brought forth by the EPA regulations so much why are you trying to copy them?


I only dislike what many poor folks are experiencing as posted readily on this great website. I keep my fires in check no matter what I need to do or despite what some government control advocate wants to tell me is right.

Perfect burn


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## bholler (Mar 6, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> I only dislike what many poor folks are experiencing as posted readily on this great website. I keep my fires in check no matter what I need to do or despite what some government control advocate wants to tell me is right.
> 
> Perfect burn
> 
> View attachment 293136


Just install the stove to spec and it will be safe and controllable.   It really isn't as complicated as you are making it


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## snobuilder (Mar 6, 2022)

bholler said:


> Just install the stove to spec and it will be safe and controllable.   It really isn't as complicated as you are making it


It's  not complicated to me. Again those are your words.
Why limit your stove?
I claim more efficiency despite what the EPA mandated. They fell short of what is easily accomplished.
The old Wonderwood stoves captured more available heat than the new stoves....lol


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## bholler (Mar 6, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> It's  not complicated to me. Again those are your words.
> I claim more efficiency despite what the EPA mandated. They fell short of what is easily accomplished.
> The old Wonderwood stoves captured more available heat than the new stoves....lol


That is not what actual laboratory testing shows.

All the unburnt volatiles the wonderwoods sent up the stack was unused BTUs.

Installed properly modern stoves can run at very low exhaust temps (just above the condensation point)  I really don't know how you think you are going to safely go below that.  And if you are pulling heat out of the firebox you won't reach proper temps for secondary combustion meaning you will be sending unburnt BTUs up the stack


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## snobuilder (Mar 7, 2022)

bholler said:


> That is not what actual laboratory testing shows.
> 
> All the unburnt volatiles the wonderwoods sent up the stack was unused BTUs.
> 
> Installed properly modern stoves can run at very low exhaust temps (just above the condensation point)  I really don't know how you think you are going to safely go below that.  And if you are pulling heat out of the firebox you won't reach proper temps for secondary combustion meaning you will be sending unburnt BTUs up the stack


Again I would have control over that situation as well but I am confident he secondary burn will be active with fans running. If not, I can slow fans down of off.  My old wood furnace at my primary residence has a large plenum and blower and the secondaries work very well ,....as shown in a previous post here.

I am not telling anyone what to do just showing what I did and my results.


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## snobuilder (Mar 7, 2022)

snobuilder said:


> I only dislike what many poor folks are experiencing as posted readily on this great website. I keep my fires in check no matter what I need to do or despite what some government control advocate wants to tell me is right.
> 
> Perfect burn
> 
> View attachment 293136


wrong pic.^


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## snobuilder (Mar 7, 2022)

Insulation board installed ^


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## Blazzinghot (Mar 8, 2022)

I see have completed your project and things seem to be working well.  Thanks for sharing the results.


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