# I'm glad there's a growing "green" trend!  Energy, food, do it you'll save the world!



## VCBurner (Mar 13, 2010)

I just watched the movie Food Inc.  It's dispicable what goes on in the food industry!  I knew we lived in a money driven society, where profit is the only goal.  But this movie sheds new light, in how the government is willing to overlook doing away witheverything that is right so a small margin can profit from it.  We as a people, need to do turn this machine around before it runs all of us over.  Watch the movie and make changes, we can still do it!


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## timfromohio (Mar 13, 2010)

That was a good movie and sure was motivating.  If you want to keep up the momentum, go and watch "Why We Fight", "King Corn", "The World According to Monsanto", "The End of Suburbia", "Life After the Crash" - can't think of any more off the top of my head.  All great movies to motivate one to become more independent in both food and energy production.


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## Fsappo (Mar 13, 2010)

Yup, burn wood, support your local farmers, grow your own veggies and toss a solar panel or two on the roof.


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## VCBurner (Mar 13, 2010)

Thank you Tim and Franks!  I was disgusted by the way safety is overlooked both for the workers who are processing our food and the final product that is reaching our homes!  All for the sake of making a small percentage of the people richer.  Meanwhile, our government supports the corporations and literaly ruins lives of small farmers.  Our country is not really ours.  It has become controlled by a handful of big wigs who have no concearn for its people.  I will boycot walmart and mcdonalds.  I will buy from farmers markets and continue to grow my own garden.  I will continue to burn wood and consider some solar panels.  The world as we know it has a lot of smoke and mirrors.  We need to become more aware and be concious of our choices.    Keep smiling and enjoy life!!


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## timfromohio (Mar 13, 2010)

VCBurner - one website you might find useful is: www.eatwild.com

The site lists, by state, small farmers who are producing pastured meat, free-range chicken, eggs, etc.  We used it to find a small farmer near us from whom we buy pastured beef and pork.  I can honestly say that the products are superior in taste and, if you buy in bulk, very cost effective.  Plus, I feel a lot better spending my money on this family's product which then goes to another family butcher operation - keeping our money local, competitive cost, superior product.  Everybody wins!


I was outraged after watching "Food, Inc." - it amazes me that small farmers can loose in court to companies like Monsanto when it was really Monsanto that contaminated the small farmer's fields and tainted their heirloom seedstock.  Plus, the intimidation tactics used, etc.  Ridiculous.  But, companies like Monsanto have masses of folks that lobby our supposed "elected" representatives to make sure that they are taken care of - ridiculous.  Then, those scenes of the beef being processed in ammonia.  Nasty stuff.  

All we can do is keep doing what you're suggesting - buy local, grow an increasingly larger portion of your own food, help get your friends, family, neighbors, co-workers involved, etc.


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## VCBurner (Mar 13, 2010)

timfromohio said:
			
		

> VCBurner - one website you might find useful is: www.eatwild.com
> 
> The site lists, by state, small farmers who are producing pastured meat, free-range chicken, eggs, etc.  We used it to find a small farmer near us from whom we buy pastured beef and pork.  I can honestly say that the products are superior in taste and, if you buy in bulk, very cost effective.  Plus, I feel a lot better spending my money on this family's product which then goes to another family butcher operation - keeping our money local, competitive cost, superior product.  Everybody wins!
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link Tim!  I'll look it up.  Better start doing my part to better our food supply.  Less Ecoli, more local farmers, better foods!


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## BucksCoBernie (Mar 14, 2010)

VCB thanks for the heads up on that movie. I watched it on demand this morning and it just reinforced the desire to eat local and stay away from the junk in the super markets. I made my wife watch it with me also....hopefully she got something out of it instead of thinking im crazy. I keep telling her im not eating bagged salad greens again because 35% have poop on them haha. btw my spinach and peas were planted last week....carrots and lettuce go in next week! peppers and tomatoes are in their pots. next year im investing in a heat pad and a grow light instead of setting them up in the window sills.


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## jklingel (Mar 14, 2010)

On a positive note, check out what this guy is talking about. If you want to see a QUALITY "fish farm" (and more), see this video. http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_barber_how_i_fell_in_love_with_a_fish.html


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## wsorg (Mar 16, 2010)

Yeah that movie got me too.  I'm definitely eating more fresh veggies now.


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## Flatbedford (Mar 16, 2010)

I think there is a growing awareness. I hope there is. Mrs. Flatbedford is making a big effort to keep only, at least, better food in the house. It is hard, does cost a few more bucks and take more time, but I think it is worth it. We are still learning with the veggie garden, but getting better at it every year. between the garden and the wood burning, I feel we are making a difference.


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## VCBurner (Mar 24, 2010)

BucksCoBernie said:
			
		

> VCB thanks for the heads up on that movie. I watched it on demand this morning and it just reinforced the desire to eat local and stay away from the junk in the super markets. I made my wife watch it with me also....hopefully she got something out of it instead of thinking im crazy. I keep telling her im not eating bagged salad greens again because 35% have poop on them haha. btw my spinach and peas were planted last week....carrots and lettuce go in next week! peppers and tomatoes are in their pots. next year im investing in a heat pad and a grow light instead of setting them up in the window sills.


You're welcome, we are still making adjustments on purchasing the better kinds of foods.  I went on the website suggested by another member above and found some farms nearby that supply good quality meats.  I've yet to go to them but the thought is still there everytime I bite into any sort of meat!  I hear you about the gardening.  My wife makes fun of me because gardening is one of my favorite hobbies.  This will be my fourth Summer with a vegetable garden.  I may start to grow sun flowers again this year also.  I did that for a few years.  The sun flowers attract all kinds of butterflies and birds and are also beautiful!  
     I quit smoking last Friday and feel great about it.  I'm 33, my wife who's 29, quit three years ago.  We are still trying to make a difference in the world.  Everyone should watch that movie.  Funny, my wife is actually the one who watched it on demand first.  It made such a big impact on her that she made me watch it.  It certainly opened my eyes to the secret world behind the super market shelves.  I'm glad I could suggest something that may make a difference in someone's life!  Thanks for posting.


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## SolarAndWood (Mar 24, 2010)

VCBurner said:
			
		

> I may start to grow sun flowers again this year also.  I did that for a few years.  The sun flowers attract all kinds of butterflies and birds and are also beautiful!



We did a 100ft row of them last year.  The kids loved the monsters but they are a PIA to deal with at the end of the season.  Everything else gets tilled under.


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## VCBurner (Mar 24, 2010)

SolarAndWood said:
			
		

> VCBurner said:
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I grew the smaller kinds in three different colors. Some fo the most beautiful ones had yellow and red colored petals. They were sort of a pain to take care of.  But it's hard to match their beauty when they are all glowing in the sun!  At the end of the season, there's a lot of posting and propping, and cropping going on.  I used to harvest the seeds and replant the following year.  When we moved to the new house the birds stole all the seeds I spread in a garden and I haven't grown them since.  This year, I'll get some seeds and start over.


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## Jags (Mar 24, 2010)

VCB - I can look across the field from my house and see my beef, pork and chickens (and eggs) being raised (by my sister and niece).  The local butcher shop has been in business for about 90 years.  The venison comes from the wild as well. I fish local waters and sustainably harvest fish for the freezer. Have grown a garden for years.  Can it, freeze it, dry it, smoke it myself.  I have burned wood for heat (although I do supplement with propane) for quite a few years even building my own splitter.

When I go to the grocery store - I buy ingredients, not packages of food.

I don't do this for the "green" revolution.  I do it for me.  The food is better and better for you.  I try to be as gentle to old mother earth as I can and still live my lifestyle.  My fertilizer is natural (I'll let you guess where it comes from), and I have been known to can on top of the stove in my shop (wood fired).

I really do enjoy the "stories" of when people have had that "ahh-ha" moment.  Its like the smile of a little baby, kinda gives me a warm and fuzzy.  Good on ya for taking the first steps.  Its not for everyone and I know that, but for those that take a path of being closer (even just a little bit) to what heats your home or feeds your soul, they have become happier in life.


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## JustWood (Mar 24, 2010)

I woodn't put too much faith in "organic" meats and produce. I have a few friends that farm organicLEE and they say "There's more than one way to skin a cat".
There isn't much policeing yet in the "organic" biz. Buyer beware. True organic is to grow your own.


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## Danno77 (Mar 24, 2010)

I ain't never been swayed to do anything by one movie or one person. That being said, I still have 1/4 of a cow left in my freezer from last year as well as sweet corn we grew, probably 9 pheasants left, and some other odds and ends from the garden. My canned stuff is running out, too, just in time for me to get some fresh stuff a-growing. I just assumed that's the best way to do it. I won't bother telling the rest of America how they should process what they eat or how they should get their food. 

So, is this the movie where they are all up in arms because some Chinese or Japanese fishermen are killing dolphins inhumanely?


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## VCBurner (Mar 24, 2010)

ApproximateLEE said:
			
		

> I woodn't put too much faith in "organic" meats and produce. I have a few friends that farm organicLEE and they say "There's more than one way to skin a cat".
> There isn't much policeing yet in the "organic" biz. Buyer beware. True organic is to grow your own.


I agree with you 100% about the "organic" movement.  I think some people may buy these sorts of products because it's a fad!  They are the same ones that own two or three SUV's for no other reason, than their popularity.  I drive a minivan because we have four boys.  I will eventually buy a truck because I need it for many reasons.  But, I assure you that is not what I meant by making changes.  I don't care if the farmer down the road uses fertilizer as long as I can support the local business.  The meats are a different story.  Beef that is on the supermarket shelves is bathed in amonia at the slaughterhouse.  The cows are fed corn because it's cheaper than letting them pasture.  Cattle are not meant to eat corn.  This practice, along with the poor conditions they are kept in causes major amounts of ecoli.  The ecoli could be reduced by 80% if the cattle was fed grass for only 5 days prior to being slaughtered.  But this would not be cost effective.  The FDA does nothing to improve the situation because the major beef companies along with other major players control the industry regulations.  Money talks.  If I were you, I'd watch the movie, if you haven't already!  It may turn your stomach and blow your mind!   :ahhh: On a more positive note, I went on eatwild.com and found some locally processed beef, pork and poultry farmers.    They raise pastured, grass fed cattle and free range chickens and don't bathe their products in amonia or chlorine. :gulp:   The local slaughterhouse they use is right here in Mass.  They don't add fillers to the final product.  These changes are not only going to improve my family's health, but hopefully, if more people do these things we can improve the food industry.  Watch Food Inc.


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## VCBurner (Mar 24, 2010)

Danno77 said:
			
		

> I ain't never been swayed to do anything by one movie or one person. That being said, I still have 1/4 of a cow left in my freezer from last year as well as sweet corn we grew, probably 9 pheasants left, and some other odds and ends from the garden. My canned stuff is running out, too, just in time for me to get some fresh stuff a-growing. I just assumed that's the best way to do it. I won't bother telling the rest of America how they should process what they eat or how they should get their food.
> 
> So, is this the movie where they are all up in arms because some Chinese or Japanese fishermen are killing dolphins inhumanely?



Good for you Danno!  Sounds like you are smarter than most people when it comes to your food.  As far as being swayed by a movie, I must confess, this one did it for me!  However, some of the things I learned while watching the movie were just re-iterated.  I already knew about the evil machine that runs our wonderful country.  But, this movie just touched deep with the way the government lets poor safety regulations slide to earn the big compamies $$$ at the expense of the general population's health and the livehood of the small farmers.  LMAO, no dolphins were discussed in this movie!! :lol:   You should watch it, it will blow your mind!  Food Inc.


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## VCBurner (Mar 24, 2010)

Hey Jags, thanks for posting!


> I can look across the field from my house and see my beef, pork and chickens (and eggs) being raised (by my sister and niece).  The local butcher shop has been in business for about 90 years.  The venison comes from the wild as well. I fish local waters and sustainably harvest fish for the freezer. Have grown a garden for years.  Can it, freeze it, dry it, smoke it myself.  I have burned wood for heat (although I do supplement with propane) for quite a few years even building my own splitter.


Sounds great, to have all this so close to you!  We had up to 36 chickens and roosters, 6 guinea hens, 3 goats, 11 ducks.  But were a bit overwhealmed by all our livestock.  I sold them all last fall.  I miss the eggs.  I learned a lot about raising animals from the experience.  I may raise a few meat birds this year as well as about 1/2 dozen layers for the coop that I'm building out back!  The guinea hens and goats are too loud.  I like the sound of silence sometimes.  Though, I must admit I miss those chickens pecking around my yard.  They made a mess of everything, though.  This time I've got some wire fence to close them into a section of the yard.  





> I don’t do this for the “green” revolution.  I do it for me.  The food is better and better for you.  I try to be as gentle to old mother earth as I can and still live my lifestyle.  My fertilizer is natural (I’ll let you guess where it comes from), and I have been known to can on top of the stove in my shop (wood fired).


I smell what your steppin in!  I'm more and more aware of what life should be like in this world.  The blinders get removed slowly when you stop and look at things!  I'm proud of what I'm learning and love to share this with others.  That's all we can do to improve this world!  I'm not a politician or a tree hugger,  just a simple man who wants to make a small difference.  This is my first year heating with wood and I love it.  I also love the fact that I can go to a local farm and buy healthier foods as well as grow some of my own.  





> I really do enjoy the “stories” of when people have had that “ahh-ha” moment.  Its like the smile of a little baby, kinda gives me a warm and fuzzy.  Good on ya for taking the first steps.  Its not for everyone and I know that, but for those that take a path of being closer (even just a little bit) to what heats your home or feeds your soul, they have become happier in life.


 Thank you for the kind words.  I'm 33 and learning about life as it should be.  I was not raised with too much of the natural ways in mind.  I always just thought I could count on the supermarket to provide good products and the government to regulate those products.  But, I guess that was mostly smoke and mirrors!  My view hasen't changed much about these things, it's just a little bit clearer.  Thanks for the post.

Chris


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## Jags (Mar 25, 2010)

Chris - the beauty of this trend is that you can take it as far as you want.  What ever your comfort level will allow.  As you say - raising critters can be a real job.  Thats why I let my sister and niece do it.  That IS their real job.  But I can go over and check out my food on the hoof anytime I choose.  

Gardens are great. Some choose to have small raised plots for a few matters or zukes and some go all out.  Again - your comfort zone.  I am just glad that people are doing it.  Around my part of the world it has always been this way.  I think you will find that most rural areas are like that.

The big industry has made food very easy and affordable for most (how the heck can you sell a whole chicken for $3.50, bagged, tagged and ready to cook), but this process has introduced some, uhhhh......unsavory methods.  

I am not a tree hugger or bunny lover or PETA wacko or Rambo type person.  Just a regular dude that likes to have a hand in the basics: food, shelter, heat, family.  Like I said above, it just gives me a warm and fuzzy when I see others that have realized the same.  For me---it has a "grounding" effect.


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## JustWood (Mar 25, 2010)

I watched it last nite.
I didn't care for the way they demonized the farmer for animals standing in their own poo and the mortality rate of high production farming. It's a sad fact but thats the way it is on a farm. No way around it when your dealing with 1000's of animals and 1000's of gallons of poo.It's just the way it is if America wants cheap food.
 My wife is from Manhattan and when she first moved here she was astonished just like most people watching that movie at  the factory like setting at most farms here. We have many 500-1000 cow dairies. Most people wood be shocked to know that most farm laborers make minimum wage and farms are not required to pay overtime.
We've visited my wifes relatives in Manhattan and they have "organic" farmers makets there and I just wonder at the number of people who buy produce that think it's truLEE "organic".


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## VCBurner (Mar 26, 2010)

Jags said:
			
		

> Chris - the beauty of this trend is that you can take it as far as you want.  What ever your comfort level will allow.  As you say - raising critters can be a real job.  Thats why I let my sister and niece do it.  That IS their real job.  But I can go over and check out my food on the hoof anytime I choose.
> 
> Gardens are great. Some choose to have small raised plots for a few matters or zukes and some go all out.  Again - your comfort zone.  I am just glad that people are doing it.  Around my part of the world it has always been this way.  I think you will find that most rural areas are like that.
> 
> ...


Thanks again Jags!  I'm looking forward to the spring and gardening time myself!  Once again, thanks for the post.  Take care.


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## VCBurner (Mar 26, 2010)

ApproximateLEE said:
			
		

> I watched it last nite.
> I didn't care for the way they demonized the farmer for animals standing in their own poo and the mortality rate of high production farming. It's a sad fact but thats the way it is on a farm. No way around it when your dealing with 1000's of animals and 1000's of gallons of poo.It's just the way it is if America wants cheap food.
> My wife is from Manhattan and when she first moved here she was astonished just like most people watching that movie at  the factory like setting at most farms here. We have many 500-1000 cow dairies. Most people wood be shocked to know that most farm laborers make minimum wage and farms are not required to pay overtime.
> We've visited my wifes relatives in Manhattan and they have "organic" farmers makets there and I just wonder at the number of people who buy produce that think it's truLEE "organic".


I hear what you're saying about the demonizing of the big farmers.  I didn't think about it that way.  The thing that bothers me the most is how the gov. overlooks the ecoli problem because the big meat companies basically have the FDA in their pocket.  And how companies like montsanto can ruin farmers lives with their multitude of cash and army of atourneys.  I understand that this is the cheapest way to produce the quantity of food the country requires at the price we expect.  The point I'm trying to make is, that to spite the fact that my family is being raised solely on my union carpenter pay, it's important for the six of us to start doing our part to improve our world.  We don't have lots of money, but if we can make a difference, maybe others will too and the whole country will benefit.  Farmers should make more $, quality of the meats should be better, people should care more about these things.  The general population should know where the food comes from and the safety regulations that are being overlooked.  The only way for these things to improve is if the people start to care.  We as a people should care. 
Great to talk to you, thanks for the post.
Chris


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## timfromohio (Mar 26, 2010)

VCBurner - I hear you about the behavior of companies like Monsanto, ConAgra, etc.  The best thing to do is vote with your dollars.  Not only buy from, but establish relationships with your local farmers.  Try to eat more seasonally, learn to preserve food, etc.  Something we're going to check out this year is produce auctions - you can get some pretty good deals on stuff - of course, you'll have to take it home and process it somehow, but it's another way to keep your dollars local.


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## btuser (Mar 26, 2010)

I am in no way convinced I am going to save the world.  The world can take care of itself.  I do however, believe in good stewardship, and disapprove of treating animals as petri dishes and protien cultures.   Most of my decisions when it comes to "green" living have a personal profit motive.  I can't deny that.  I keep my house at 60F in the Winter to save money.  If someone wants it warmer I've cut, split, stacked, dried, and moved a pile of it wood right next to the stove.  TA-DA!  I doubt I'd burn much wood if oil was under a dollar.   

I grew up in between 3 farms, and some days when it was wet and the wind blew just right our house smelled like a farm too.   Big frigging deal.  I watch the films of the feedlots (which used to be called stockyards, they were grain-finished for 6 months MAX) and remember that it was in NOT like that.  A farmer who only has 100 head is going to take care of each and every cow.   Most of their problems are self-inflicted (antibiotics and ecoli come to mind) and would not be a factor in less intensive operations.

Anyhow, what is important to remember is every member of the chain can claim they're a victim.  
The farmers have one customer, so they have no choice. 
The processing companies have to compete with overseas markets if they're not willing to accept the price offered by McDs and the other big buyers. 
The chains complain about competition and cost cutting and what the American consumer is willing to pay for a burger. 
Then we got the 500lb tubby on disability who's too fat to work.

I'm not worried about it.  When gas hits $5/gallon all of a sudden this local "feel good" movement is going to have the competitive advantage.   These large distribution chains from the cornfield to the feedlot to the processor to the warehouse to the chain food restaurant are going away.  Its only been this way in America for about 30 years.  Its a fad, a trend that's going away.  Let's help it along.


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## VCBurner (Mar 26, 2010)

Thanks for commenting btuser.  I like what you're saying!  





> I am in no way convinced I am going to save the world.  The world can take care of itself.  I do however, believe in good stewardship, and disapprove of treating animals as petri dishes and protien cultures.  Most of my decisions when it comes to “green” living have a personal profit motive.


I guess when I titled this thread I wasn't thinking how corny it sounds to say "do it you'll save the world!"   But, wouldn't it be nice if we as a people decided to take control of our country and do the right thing for our selves and each other?  It was a bit of a cheerleader statement, somewhat idealist and a little unrealistic.  I too like to save money.  In fact my family's immediate survival depends on frugality.  We have not been able to boycot walmart and my wife has gone to mcdonalds since I started this thread.  Last night we bought all our groceries at the walmart supercenter in the neighboring town.  Am I proud of not going to the local farm to buy my meats? No!  I had a three day pay check this week and had to keep the cost low!  Last night we got out spending $260 for a week's worth of groceries.  Next week we plan to visit a local farm and try buying meats that are locally raised and processed.  We also have local produce shops where we plan to shop.  We will have to compare cost and see how it will all work.  There's got to be a balance somehow!  On another money saving topic, we saved over $1500 on heating costs and only used 50 gallons of oil since November.  That includes water heating.   





> I doubt I’d burn much wood if oil was under a dollar.


My wood is free so I think I'd still burn some wood!


> I grew up in between 3 farms, and some days when it was wet and the wind blew just right our house smelled like a farm too.  Big frigging deal.  I watch the films of the feedlots (which used to be called stockyards, they were grain-finished for 6 months MAX) and remember that it was in NOT like that.  A farmer who only has 100 head is going to take care of each and every cow.  Most of their problems are self-inflicted (antibiotics and ecoli come to mind) and would not be a factor in less intensive operations.


So, I wonder how much of the meats on the shelves are from the small farmers you mentioned?  


> Anyhow, what is important to remember is every member of the chain can claim they’re a victim.
> The farmers have one customer, so they have no choice.
> The processing companies have to compete with overseas markets if they’re not willing to accept the price offered by McDs and the other big buyers.
> The chains complain about competition and cost cutting and what the American consumer is willing to pay for a burger.


I think this is where we would come in as consumers and buy the locally grown and processed foods and change the market.  Our demand would be for the local farmers and not the huge company producing the major % of our food supply!  The big companies would have to change their focus from mass production to high quality because that is what the people want! 





> I’m not worried about it.  When gas hits $5/gallon all of a sudden this local “feel good” movement is going to have the competitive advantage.  These large distribution chains from the cornfield to the feedlot to the processor to the warehouse to the chain food restaurant are going away.  Its only been this way in America for about 30 years.  Its a fad, a trend that’s going away.  Let’s help it along.


I hope you're right!  It's shocking how fast our world has changed from local to mass production.  I sure hope there's still time to make a change.  This is why I'm idealistic.


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## daveswoodhauler (Mar 26, 2010)

Chris, I like the way you think.
Just a little north of ya.


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## btuser (Mar 26, 2010)

> [So, I wonder how much of the meats on the shelves are from the small farmers you mentioned?



Zip. Zero.  The last one to go was a dairy farm and he was PAID to shut down.  He tried starting up a beef herd later on but was hassled out of that too.  No one would buy it because the  big boyz had the entire distribution chain choked with their own meat (you know what I mean).  After a few years and a refusal of the town to allow a storefront (not zoned for it) he shut down for good.

There's a good place in Loudon NH that sells real beef, goat, pork and chicken.  I think its Mills Farms.   Also, a couple of places in around with local farmers.


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## VCBurner (Mar 27, 2010)

btuser said:
			
		

> > [So, I wonder how much of the meats on the shelves are from the small farmers you mentioned?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Pretty sad isn't it? Thousands of farmers and family businesses who are bankrupt or forced to close would probably agree.  The web site eatwild.com has a list of farmers that can provide real farm fresh quality foods.  I was so surprized to see how many farms are actually around here in Mass!  As close as my neighboring town of Rutland.  I'm sure up there in NH there are quite a few if you look them up.  Thanks again btuser!


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## SolarAndWood (Mar 27, 2010)

VCBurner said:
			
		

> The web site eatwild.com has a list of farmers that can provide real farm fresh quality foods.  I was so surprized to see how many farms are actually around here in Mass!



No doubt, thanks Tim for the link.  There are 3 listed that are just as close as the grocery store to us.


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## timfromohio (Mar 27, 2010)

Glad that you guys found the link useful.  We're actually making a trip this morning to pick up our year's supply of pastured pork.  The hogs are rasied by a small, family farmer about 45 minutes south of where we live and processed by another family butcher operation about 25 minutes south of where we live.  We get a great product, the hogs are pastured and not fed hormones/anitbiotics, we are free to stop by the farm anytime (except Sundays), and we are supporting two local family-based businesses.  Everybody wins except the big agri-businesses.  Oh yes, my wife gets far more discretion with how the meat is packaged which is great.  I hope you guys have similar good luck with local farms that you find.

This is a very inspiring thread and demonstrates what we all seem to think needs to happen - people acting more locally, seasonally, taking more control over the basics in their lives.


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## timfromohio (Mar 27, 2010)

One more comment - it seemed that the movie "Food, Inc." motivated a lot of us to become more self-sufficient.  I'd suggest everybody check out the book, "The Self-Sufficient Life and How to Live It" by John Seymour.  I checked this book out from our library so many times I finally had to get off my wallet and buy my own copy.  It's a wonderful book that gives overviews of many topics related to self-sufficiency and can help you take the next step.  You've decided that you want to grow a garden, process your own food, brew your own beer - whatever it might be, this book is bound to have a several page overview of the topic.  I have worn the book out just reading through and daydreaming about the possibilities.  I loan it out consistently to friends and it has had similar effects - one is now building raised bed gardens on his suburban lot, another enlarged his garden and has ordered fruit trees and berry bushes.


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## Flatbedford (Mar 27, 2010)

I haven't seen the movie, but for those of you who still read I recommend Fast Food Nation: The Dark Side of the All-American Meal (2001) by Eric Schlosser There is a movie too but I haven't seen it either.


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## timfromohio (Mar 27, 2010)

flatbedford - I have heard of that book, but never read it.  I'll tell the wife to add it to the library list - thanks for the recommendation.


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## VCBurner (Mar 27, 2010)

Flatbedford said:
			
		

> I haven't seen the movie, but for those of you who still read I recommend Fast Food Nation: The Dark Side of the All-American Meal (2001) by Eric Schlosser There is a movie too but I haven't seen it either.


We saw the movie. It was a good one.  I'd recommend it too!


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## VCBurner (Mar 27, 2010)

timfromohio said:
			
		

> Glad that you guys found the link useful.  We're actually making a trip this morning to pick up our year's supply of pastured pork.  The hogs are rasied by a small, family farmer about 45 minutes south of where we live and processed by another family butcher operation about 25 minutes south of where we live.  We get a great product, the hogs are pastured and not fed hormones/anitbiotics, we are free to stop by the farm anytime (except Sundays), and we are supporting two local family-based businesses.  Everybody wins except the big agri-businesses.  Oh yes, my wife gets far more discretion with how the meat is packaged which is great.  I hope you guys have similar good luck with local farms that you find.
> 
> This is a very inspiring thread and demonstrates what we all seem to think needs to happen - people acting more locally, seasonally, taking more control over the basics in their lives.


Tim, 
The wife and I discussed a couple of different options for meats.  Caledonia farms in Barre, Mass has meats by the pound you can buy directly from them.  They are one of the farms from eatwild.com.  Another is Chestnut Farms in Hardwick, MA.  They have a meat CSA with a few options the one that would suit us best would be  25+ pound option @ $7/lb. We go through 8 pounds of meat per week.  A Csa that can acomodate this would cost $224 per month.  Cestnut Farms includes beef, poultry and pork in every monthly pick up.  Their next 6 month period begins in June. We'll go to Caledonia Farms next week for our meats.  There are a few other options we can go with.  I may have to plug in the freezer downstairs again if we'll be buying monthly and add the cost of running that in our budget.   

Thank you so much for the link!  I hope this thread can help change someone's life for the better!


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## VCBurner (Mar 27, 2010)

> I didn’t care for the way they demonized the farmer for animals standing in their own poo and the mortality rate of high production farming. It’s a sad fact but thats the way it is on a farm. No way around it when your dealing with 1000’s of animals and 1000’s of gallons of poo.It’s just the way it is if America wants cheap food.


Another thought.  Instead of giving the big companies breaks on safaty regulations the government should give incentives to farmers themselves.  They should get help to process all the manure and turn it into a source of energy to run the farms.  Some farms do this and are run mostly on the methane gas produced from the waste.  The end product can be turned into fertilizer instead of being dumped into the environment.  Natural fertilizer that would also benefit our world in the long run and the farmers themselves.  Sounds like a win win situation.


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## timfromohio (Mar 28, 2010)

VCBurner - it may be different where you live, but most of the farmers here discount things ALOT if you buy in bulk - I suppose b/c you are committing to them raising an animal for you up front.  We bought a whole hog this year (no pun intended, we went "whole hog"!) and the total cost per pound was $2.98/lb for a 167lb hanging weight hog.  So that's about $500 which is a big cash outlay at one time, but if you can swing it (and have a chest freezer) it's very economical and will last us about a year (we really enjoy the pork and beef a lot, but don't eat meat every day so we can stretch it out). The beef winds up costing a bit more, but is still way cheaper than buying in smaller amounts - the last couple of years we got a 1/4 cow (mixed front 1/4 and back 1/4 - gives you a variety of cuts).  

Anyway, glad that you guys found some farms close to you.  I really hope you enjoy the food as much as we have.

Your idea about helping out the farmers makes way too much sense for our government - it seems that all of the guys making decisions at the FDA or Department of Agriculture are former employees of the big agri-businesses....  frustrating.


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## JustWood (Mar 28, 2010)

VCBurner said:
			
		

> > I didn’t care for the way they demonized the farmer for animals standing in their own poo and the mortality rate of high production farming. It’s a sad fact but thats the way it is on a farm. No way around it when your dealing with 1000’s of animals and 1000’s of gallons of poo.It’s just the way it is if America wants cheap food.
> 
> 
> Another thought.  Instead of giving the big companies breaks on safaty regulations the government should give incentives to farmers themselves.  They should get help to process all the manure and turn it into a source of energy to run the farms.  Some farms do this and are run mostly on the methane gas produced from the waste.  The end product can be turned into fertilizer instead of being dumped into the environment.  Natural fertilizer that would also benefit our world in the long run and the farmers themselves.  Sounds like a win win situation.



Farmers do use manure as fertilizer. It's not just dumped randomLEE in piles or out of the way places. The big farms are required to keep weather logs and times of when they spread. They also have setbacks from streams or low lying areas. The farm is the ultimate recycler in my eye.
The big farms do get grants for methane cogeneration. The dried material is re used as bedding and the nutrient rich liquid is spread or ground injected.
It takes a sheetload of manure to make it economical to set up digester/cogeneration infrastructure. I wood guess 400+ head of cattle worth of sheet.


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## Dune (Mar 28, 2010)

Lee, why does it take a sheetload to be worthwhile? Why can't the system be designed for the amount of available product? I don't see why it wouldn't work on a samll scale. Back in the day, there were lots of small systems.


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## JustWood (Mar 28, 2010)

Generators, digesters, and infrastructure are less expensive the more KW involved. And, if involved with grants or susidies you can't cut corners. I suppose it could be done economicalLEE on a small scale with your own $ and surplus/used equipment.
  There is a big dairy in my town that has a system. They used to flare off excess gas. I could see the flare from my house. I've rarely seen it flaring  in the last few years and I believe they are down on cattle #'s so I don't think it runs all the time.


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## Dune (Mar 28, 2010)

I like cohabitation too. I been co-habitating with my present woman for 18 years. Its the co-generating I am wondering about.


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## VCBurner (Mar 28, 2010)

ApproximateLEE said:
			
		

> VCBurner said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey Lee, thanks for responding.
I'm glad there are grants being given to farmers for this sort of process. I don't know much about it, only what I saw on a TV show once. It seems to me that the FDA is more worried about allowing the big companies to cut corners than supplying farmers with what they need to make their businesses profitable. There may be grants but they may not be enough to really make this a profitable undertaking. I may live in Massachusetts but there are plenty of farms around the central part of the state where I live. I understand farmers use manure as fertilizer. However, it seems to me that those feed lots don't have one bit of green around them. They certainly don't need to fertilize anything on those industrial meat producing lots. Those are not farms with animals being raised for slaughter, they are more like a science fiction projects. I don't have anything against farmers or the people who are forced to run those feed lots. They are being taken advantage of by the big meat companies, who are the ones running the show. I'm not a stranger to poop! My yard was covered in it for about a year and a half, due to the 45 poultry we had free ranging in our property. We sold them last fall, but I will restart a laying flock as soon as I finish a coop in the back yard! This time they'll have a fenced in area so my kids can roll around the grass without having to worry about chicken and duck manure. On my street there are a few small flocks and some horses on neighbor's properties. My house was owned by a family who used to own all the land around here 100's of acres of cattle pasture. Now we live in our fossil fuel heated, super insulated houses and go to the super market for the antibiotic and growth hormone filled, ecoli riddled, ammonia bathed beef! Beef that comes from cows that live in dozens or hundreds in small fenced in lots as big as our lots. They no longer eat or even see any grass only corn. Corn that is controlled by other big companies with little concern for the farmers who grow it. It's just a bit ironic. We still just sit around and say we don't care about what other people do or eat! We should care where the general population's food comes from. The future of our kids and their kids depends on it! If this world just keeps going the way it is, with people not caring, imagine how much things will change for the worse in the NEXT thirty years! The last thirty years put an end to most family farms, I don't want to think of what the next thirty will do for our country and our world.
Take care LEE and thank you for your insightful responses!


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## btuser (Mar 28, 2010)

If you look at the numbers on a bag of fertilizer and then look at a bag of composted manure you start to realize why bags of chemicals are so popular.  I'm not an organic farmer, but I do get composted manure and subsidize the nitrogen content with slow release fertilizer ect.   There's a lot of money in sh*t, but you have to be a plumber.  Stuffing pipes into the ground to collect methane is a good science project and is better than a total release into the atmosphere but no one's getting rich.


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## JustWood (Mar 29, 2010)

Dune said:
			
		

> I like cohabitation too. I been co-habitating with my present woman for 18 years. Its the co-generating I am wondering about.



I guess eye combined the commune and poo thread ! Whoops! Sorry!


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## JustWood (Mar 29, 2010)

VC , those feed/finish lots  are just that. Those cattle aren't raised there. It's more of a collection yard where they are confined so as not to burn off fat/muscle and  fed corn only for a short time before slaughter. Those cows are raised on farms and fed hay , corn silage and some grains.  Not just straight corn.


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## btuser (Mar 29, 2010)

ApproximateLEE said:
			
		

> VC , those feed/finish lots  are just that. Those cattle aren't raised there. It's more of a collection yard where they are confined so as not to burn off fat/muscle and  fed corn only for a short time before slaughter. Those cows are raised on farms and fed hay , corn silage and some grains.  Not just straight corn.



That used to be the case, but not anymore.  A steer used to spend a maximum of 6 months at the feed lot, because after that their stomaches would start to rot out with bateria.  The consequences of the high starch diet.  After the pharma industry was done pumping us with as much antibiotics as we could hold, they went to the feedlot to see if they could help out.  A steer is now able to survive 18 months at the feedlot, for the most part.  The meat is full of water and fat so it weighs good but the cow is killed in the nick of time, put out of its misery for the most part because it would never survive past its two years.

Just look at the way beef used to be packaged.  It would come whole sides, dry aged and comparably lean to today's standards.  Now its packed in its own blood and they call it "wet aged", all the time telling us how cheap it is when all we're paying for is water.


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## VCBurner (Mar 29, 2010)

ApproximateLEE said:
			
		

> VC , those feed/finish lots  are just that. Those cattle aren't raised there. It's more of a collection yard where they are confined so as not to burn off fat/muscle and  fed corn only for a short time before slaughter. Those cows are raised on farms and fed hay , corn silage and some grains.  Not just straight corn.


How long is this finishing period?


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## VCBurner (Mar 29, 2010)

btuser said:
			
		

> ApproximateLEE said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry, I posted my question about the finishing period before reading this other informative reply.  Thanks again BTuser for answering my question and giving all the readers of this post more information most of us may not know.  


> Stuffing pipes into the ground to collect methane is a good science project and is better than a total release into the atmosphere but no one’s getting rich.


The process I was refering to involves more than pipes into the ground.  I'm the wrong person to explain this thing. Because I know nothing but what I saw on a TV show as I mentioned.  This was on Dirty Jobs on the Discovery Channel.  The farm had large storage cylindrical containers where they somehow extracted enough energy out of the methane to run a large portion of the operation on the farm.  I think it was used to heat and even provide electricity.  The farmer who Mike Row (the show host) visited, mentioned he saved a ton of money on energy bills by using this method.  I wish someone more informed could comment on this and explain it a little better.  Maybe I'll try to research it a little.  

Thanks again BTuser for the great reply.


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## JustWood (Mar 29, 2010)

Your right VC. Gas is collected in the tops of tanks domes or greenhouse type enclosures. The farm here has a heavy duty greenhouse type enclosure . I believe sunlight can also play a role in gas production by helping the bacteria to grow.
I was talking to one of the workers on this farm about a month ago and he said the digester was shut down due to ph being off and not enough bacteria. They had to introduce some more of the bacteria. Don't know if they just get manure ( bacteria) from another farm or if they purchase the bugs. Pretty interesting technology.


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## Dune (Mar 29, 2010)

Quite simple really. As most anything decomposes it releases methane (the major component of natural gas). Since methane burns well in internal combustion engines, gas or diesel,  one with a sufficient supply of organic matter can readily generate enough electricity and an excess of heat to meet their needs, possibly even commercial needs, depending upon the volume of organic matter available for gasification, or digesting as the process is commonly known.  The equipment can be as simple as a pair of old oil drums and a truck innertube or as complex as you desire. Google methane digester.


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## VCBurner (Mar 29, 2010)

Dune said:
			
		

> Quite simple really. As most anything decomposes it releases methane (the major component of natural gas). Since methane burns well in internal combustion engines, gas or diesel,  one with a sufficient supply of organic matter can readily generate enough electricity and an excess of heat to meet their needs, possibly even commercial needs, depending upon the volume of organic matter available for gasification, or digesting as the process is commonly known.  The equipment can be as simple as a pair of old oil drums and a truck innertube or as complex as you desire. Google methane digester.


Thanks Dune, 
I'll have to google your lead.  It sounds simple the way you put it.  It didn't sound as simple when applied to large scales such as the farm on Dirty Jobs.  Hence, the suggestion of government incentives for "real" use of such technology to help aleviate the energy cost of large farms.  This would not only benefit the farmers and the environment but would allow more of the money to be focused on the true quality of their products.  Maybe then, the farmer would be able to grass feed their steer instead of stuffing them with bacteria producing corn feed.  Again, nothing against the farmers, this is not something they are proud of I hope.  As I stated before, the amount of ecoli in beef would be lowered by 80% if steer were grass fed as opposed to corn fed.

On an unrelated note... Where abouts on the Cape are you?  I grew up in Hyannis.  The wife and I met there and had our first two kids on the Cape before moving to central Mass.  I went to Dennis Yarmouth High School and lived in Sandwich for a few years also. 
The Mrs and I both miss the smell of the ocean so we end up going to some sort of beach every other weekend between Memorial Day and Labor Day.


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## Dune (Apr 2, 2010)

Born in Hyannis, raised in Chatham, lived in Harwich, Eastham, Wellfleet, Dennis, and finaly settled in Yarmouth.
Always loved Sandwich for it's physical beauty and still spend a lot of time there.


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## Bobbin (Apr 2, 2010)

My aunt and uncle lived in  Chatham for years.  A recently deceased cousin of mine lived in that area, too.  He was a fisherman.  It's a lovely area, though I haven't visited it in many, many years.  (I live in the land of really deep, really cold water!).


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## Dune (Apr 3, 2010)

Hey Bobbin. I am a retired Chatham fisherman. I likely knew your cousin.


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## VCBurner (Apr 9, 2010)

Hey Dune and Bobbin,
My wife says she misses coming out of the grocery store and breathing in the ocean smell!  I never realized how lucky I was to be there until we moved away.  On the flip side, since crossing the canal I've seen many other beaches I never knew existed.  I do miss the Cape and feel like I'm back home when I return.  Someday maybe we'll be able to afford a little Summer cottage somewhere!  Take care.


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## daveswoodhauler (Apr 22, 2010)

Little late to the game on this thread....but my wife and I watched this on PBS last night....there were some portions of the movie that I didbn't want to see, but know have a better understanding of the whole process.
I tripled the size of our garden this year, and I think in 2 years my entire backyard will be a garden if my wife gets here way


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## Flatbedford (Apr 26, 2010)

My wife and I watched it last night. I think what bothers me most is that through the whole movie, most of the stories come down to exploitation of people. whether its undocumented workers bussed into the country, farmers forced into debt, poor people eating crap food, and the health consequences, etc. Everybody is so scared about Obama and his "socialism" when its really the large multi-national corporations and their influence on government that is the biggest threat.
We try to buy good, local food whenever possible, and we will try even harder now.


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## 4acrefarm (Apr 27, 2010)

Add these to your reading list.


In Defense Of Food, Omnivores Delema, By Micheal Poland 

Everything I Want To Do Is Ilegal  by joel Salatin

Anything these guyus have written is usefull, Salatin is a meat farmer with an amazing operation. He proves it casn be done if the government will stay out of the way.

Living in the country I have raised chickens and beef, It is a lot of work. I will buy from myneihbors from now on. Buy a whole cow and pay for the butchering and sell off portions to others and it is very afordable.


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## semipro (Apr 27, 2010)

Flatbedford said:
			
		

> Everybody is so scared about Obama and his "socialism" when its really the large multi-national corporations and their influence on government that is the biggest threat.



You hit that nail on the head...with a sledgehammer!


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## VCBurner (Apr 28, 2010)

Flatbedford said:
			
		

> My wife and I watched it last night. I think what bothers me most is that through the whole movie, most of the stories come down to exploitation of people. whether its undocumented workers bussed into the country, farmers forced into debt, poor people eating crap food, and the health consequences, etc. Everybody is so scared about Obama and his "socialism" when its really the large multi-national corporations and their influence on government that is the biggest threat.
> We try to buy good, local food whenever possible, and we will try even harder now.



Glad to see this thread is still relevant.  I think about the subject just about every day.  Totally agree with the comment of exploitation of people and the Obama socialism comment.  It is a shame what money can buy!  It is also a shame that our country is going down this road where the big companies control everything with their power.  Even what we eat.  We need to change if we want our kids and grand kids to live healthy lives.  Some studies show that this generation of children are the first generation expected to live shorter lives than their parents.  All due to the choices we've made as a population.  Our kids need to know how to eat and what to eat in order to live healthy lives.  Has anyone watched Jamie Oliver's Food Revolution?


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## VCBurner (Apr 28, 2010)

Watch the movie Food Inc. for free today from this link:
http://couponpro.blogspot.com/2010/04/food-inc-stream-movie-online-for-free.html
It is a special today only!


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## kenny chaos (Apr 28, 2010)

4acrefarm said:
			
		

> Everything I Want To Do Is Ilegal  by joel Salatin
> 
> Salatin is a meat farmer with an amazing operation. He proves it casn be done if the government will stay out of the way.
> .






Watch out for that character.  He's a half azz farmer at best but a darn good con man.
Makes his money selling books, lectures, and old ideas.
Read enough of his stuff and you'll see the double talk.
I broke bread once with the man and wouldn't again.


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## Cluttermagnet (Apr 29, 2010)

There's something I didn't see touched on very much in this thread. There is a lot of talk about finding small, natural farms for meat and poultry. I eat these too, and I strongly support finding healthier sources for them. Americans are very meat- oriented, however. Overly so, many would say. Most families could cut way back on the percentage of meat in meals and yet still eat very well indeed. It takes some relearning, but it definitely can be done. I personally have learned to cook with more vegetables, over the years, and to use fresh only- and especially, not commercially canned! Frozen are 'OK', especially if you are growing your own. I do some pretty delicious spicing and saucing, and can make relatively few ounces of meat or poultry 'multiply' into fairly large and filling dishes. I've become the designated chef, most of the time. She can cook but she much prefers mine, which generally resembles Asian or Indian fare.

While I make sure we eat plenty of fresh fruit and vegetables, I still need to work a lot on improving my sources. Need to get to some farmer's markets. Too much of our stuff is coming from the supermarket. I live in woods under pretty much full shade, so gardening is not an option for me. Otherwise I'd be gardening for sure. This has been a good reminder thread. I've been researching farmer's markets and 'clean' meat sources lately. Found some good local ones.


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## kenny chaos (Apr 29, 2010)

Cluttermagnet said:
			
		

> There's something I didn't see touched on very much in this thread. There is a lot of talk about finding small, natural farms for meat and poultry. I eat these too, and I strongly support finding healthier sources for them. Americans are very meat- oriented, however. Overly so, many would say. Most families could cut way back on the percentage of meat in meals and yet still eat very well indeed. It takes some relearning, but it definitely can be done. I personally have learned to cook with more vegetables, over the years, and to use fresh only- and especially, not commercially canned! Frozen are 'OK', especially if you are growing your own. I do some pretty delicious spicing and saucing, and can make relatively few ounces of meat or poultry 'multiply' into fairly large and filling dishes. I've become the designated chef, most of the time. She can cook but she much prefers mine, which generally resembles Asian or Indian fare.
> 
> While I make sure we eat plenty of fresh fruit and vegetables, I still need to work a lot on improving my sources. Need to get to some farmer's markets. Too much of our stuff is coming from the supermarket. I live in woods under pretty much full shade, so gardening is not an option for me. Otherwise I'd be gardening for sure. This has been a good reminder thread. I've been researching farmer's markets and 'clean' meat sources lately. Found some good local ones.





You'll never find someone at a farmers market who is selling something of someone else's, which may even have come from another country, but they are there.  I always recommend buy right from a farm vs. farmers market.  You can see what you're buying into then.
A real man grows at least some of his own food.
Living in the woods in no excuse.  There are many shade loving veggies, some tolerant ones, and some only needing half a day of sun. I don't know any meat animals that mind the woods either.
Some of the world's healthiest and best medicinal foods grow in the woods.


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## Cluttermagnet (Apr 29, 2010)

kenny chaos said:
			
		

> A real man grows at least some of his own food.
> Living in the woods in no excuse.


Among the relatively few times I've ever had my manhood called into question, this is definitely the first time for the reason you state. I choose to be amused rather than offended. That is a bit harsh, though. (Or was that not a personal attack and just awkwardly worded?)



> There are many shade loving veggies, some tolerant ones, and some only needing half a day of sun.


I'm sure that must be true, but please, could you cite a few examples of these? I sincerely believe that a lot in full shade is pretty much a non starter for any really practical/ productive vegetable gardening. At best, perhaps a few radishes and salad greens in early spring prior to full leafout.



> I don't know any meat animals that mind the woods either.


Erm- I live in the suburbs, OK? I'd have the neighbors pissed and the county after me in a heartbeat if I tried raising livestock.



> Some of the world's healthiest and best medicinal foods grow in the woods.


 True, but see my comment about the suburbs, above. This is a pretty developed area. I have less than an acre. Most land is privately owned around here, i.e. not available for me or others to forage.


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## kenny chaos (Apr 29, 2010)

Cluttermagnet said:
			
		

> kenny chaos said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





I don't even know you.  Why take it personal.  
Leafy vegetables do good in full shade.
Beans, beets, broccoli, cabbage, kohlrabi, peas, potatoes, rhubarb and turnips work in partial shade.
Medicinals can be developed from nearly all parts of trees and shrubs including wood, bark, buds, leaves, roots, fruit, flowers, nuts, sap and pollen.  Maybe a fun and healthy hobby to pursue.
Let's not forget the very health giving and money making ginseng, golden seal, mushroom, etc..
How about a small grove of paw paw trees in your woods?
It is easy enough to keep prying eyes away from a rabbit hutch, small aviary full of quail, pigeon, etc..
Send me a layout of your place and I'll lay you out a right nice little food factory and your neighbors won't even know.
Yes, even on one acre in the woods.  How about a small tank for raising tilapia, shrimp, or crayfish?
You'll eat things most people can't afford to buy in a restaurant.
I have just under an acre in front of a barn I'm transforming as we speak.  I'm doing a trial this year and if things work out, there will be 2000 strawberry plants, about 1000 asparagus roots, several hundred raspberry plants, and some assorted vegetables producing next year, on less than an acre.  There was a bush maple growing in the center of the area and I just finished cutting about three cords of firewood.
We just grow shrooms in our woods.
I knew a gal in the burbs who befriended a pig and kept it in a little gambrel roof garden shed.
It died at about 2,000 pounds and her neighbors were shocked when the back-hoe came and dragged it out of that little shed.
I wanted it for sausage.  She started to cry.  But it really was funny.


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## timfromohio (Apr 29, 2010)

Cluttermagnet, the solution to the problem of shade vs. sun and your property being wooded is very simple ... firewood!


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## Cluttermagnet (Apr 30, 2010)

timfromohio said:
			
		

> Cluttermagnet, the solution to the problem of shade vs. sun and your property being wooded is very simple ... firewood!


See this thread  for my answer. Post #8. I'd never willingly cut down my beautiful trees.

I'm having no trouble getting access to free wood elsewhere. Also, pretty much all the wood I get is deadwood, which I prefer. It seasons much faster. If I don't have to cut live trees, I'd prefer not to.


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## Cluttermagnet (Apr 30, 2010)

kenny chaos said:
			
		

> Leafy vegetables do good in full shade.


Yep, this is what I've heard.


> Beans, beets, broccoli, cabbage, kohlrabi, peas, potatoes, rhubarb and turnips work in partial shade.


Full shade is mostly what I have. I'm researching this on the net. Found several sites with lists that do overlap with some of the varieties you mention. I do have a corner that gets a little sun, especially in early spring prior to full canopy leafout. I'll start there. My time is very limited. May not get very much in this year.


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## SolarAndWood (Apr 30, 2010)

kenny chaos said:
			
		

> I'm doing a trial this year and if things work out, there will be 2000 strawberry plants, about 1000 asparagus roots, several hundred raspberry plants, and some assorted vegetables producing next year, on less than an acre.



Its amazing how much food can be produced in a relatively small area.  One of the case studies on Cornell's gardening site is a couple in VT that grossed $63K on an acre.  We put in 100 strawberries, 20 raspberries/blackberries, 13 blueberries and 300 sq ft of herb garden last year.  50 asparagus went in last night.  While I don't have any interest in raising animals, our diet has improved every year since putting in the garden four years ago on our acre and a half four miles from downtown.


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## timfromohio (Apr 30, 2010)

cluttermagnet - how about tapping some of those maple trees?

kenny - how about posting some pics or a plan of your layout?


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## kenny chaos (Apr 30, 2010)

timfromohio said:
			
		

> kenny - how about posting some pics or a plan of your layout?






I can do pics.


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