# Anyone else heating a non-insulated home?



## jwoair23

Just curious what other's experience is with heating a home that has zero insulation. I have a 1929 brick home, and we have gotten our first real cold weather here this year, 21 degrees outside right now. If I have my insert absolutely cranking I can just barely maintain 70 degrees, but it has to be cranking constantly to do it. Overnight it dropped to about 65 in the house while I had the air turned down to get longer burns.

I have not a scrap/tuft/wisp/piece of insulation anywhere in the house, and sometimes it feels like I'm heating a screened in porch! Even if I let the fire go out and just ran the furnace, it would be on darn near constantly in these temperatures.

(I know cold is relative and some of you guys would think 20 degrees is warm  ).

Anyone else share my woes?


----------



## begreen

We started out partially insulated and fairly leaky in this old house. After fixing a lot of these faults  I can only tell you that sealing up things and insulating is one of the best investments you can make.


----------



## DAKSY

begreen said:


> We started out partially insulated and fairly leaky in this old house. I can only tell you that sealing up things and insulating is one of the best investments you can make.


 
& one of the least expensive, too...


----------



## jwoair23

I have to be honest I have no experience with insulation or the costs involved. If I had to guess I would say we will be here a maximum of another 5 years, do you think the cost would be worth it when dealing with a 5 year timeframe?


----------



## michburner

it would help alot if you got some of that plastic window film from your local hardware.  That takes care of a lot of the drafts.  Its cheap.  And if
all it does is add one hour before you have to feed the stove, you'll be happy for it and so will your sleep schedule.


----------



## WellSeasoned

We have so so insulation, and waking up to 65○ F seems pretty good to me. (We get low 60's, upper 50's this morning) With the 40+ mph winds yesterday, it can be a chore keeping the temps up in the house. I have definitely noticed that after being home for the weekend and keeping the stove running, the house tends to stay warmer easier by Wednesday as opposed to maybe not being home on a Saturday, and not keeping up with the stove. The more the stove is running the more the walls will warm up, and keep their warmth, the couch, floor,  etc etc etc. Obviously, burning the black locust or oak more btu per load.


----------



## begreen

A well insulated home has resale value also, so I would say yes, especially if heating prices go up. Not everyone wants to heat with wood.


----------



## jwoair23

begreen said:


> A well insulated home has resale value also, so I would say yes, especially if heating prices go up. Not everyone wants to heat with wood.


Good point! That's something to consider.

Also WellSeasoned I 100% agree with the winds we have had it takes a lot more to keep the house warm for sure!


----------



## WellSeasoned

We too need to insulate more where we can. I do little a year, and using an IR meter is so helpful no only for the stove but more for targeting where cold air can be coming in at.


----------



## jharkin

begreen said:


> We started out partially insulated and fairly leaky in this old house. After fixing a lot of these faults I can only tell you that sealing up things and insulating is one of the best investments you can make.


 
Same here.when we moved in about half the walls and ceilings were empty, and there were holes in the attic big enough to climb through. Using mass save subsidy and some effort on my part I've sealed and insulated the entire house over 2 years for about a grand. The result is much better but not up to modern code - about R10 walls and R20 to R40 roof.


I've measured an almost 30% drop in energy use (tracking gas and wood consumption vs degree days), and have significantly reduced the variation in temp through the house. We no longer need to burn at all during the day if its sunny and over 45F, and I no longer have cold days where the stove can't keep up. Also we went from using 2 humidifiers running nonstop to just one that barely runs.

This is all without touching a single window. Caulk first, then insulate, then maybe look at window improvements.


----------



## BobUrban

I too have a loose house.  Although built in 2000 it was not built by me and is not super tight or super high quality.  I do have decent windows throughout and all but they are entry level.  Biggest issue is(was) that the upstairs has seemingly little insulation in the walls.  When I was heating this place with propane it was chilly up there at best - with the NC30 I keep it hot in here and sometimes too hot.  All that said if I sleep past 7am it is below 70 and sometimes 65 degrees in the house with stove top at or below 300.  A restoke and an hour later we are back to 70+.  Outside temps are not as big an issue as wind speed.  When it is 20 outside and calm I can keep the heat much longer than 30 with 20+ MPH winds.  Convection is a B%*ch to keep up with.

As many here have done - my next investments will be to tighten things up and invest in better insulation but so far I am feeling just fine with the furnace never coming on.


----------



## raybonz

True JH even the best windows don't have much of an R-value.. Drafts and cold walls/ceilings will make you feel cold no matter how warm it is.. Start with insulating the attic as this will make the biggest difference..

Ray


----------



## yooperdave

Yes, yes,...get that attic insulated!  (Remember to leave room for the air to flow up from the eaves when you are insulating).  Also, getting the doors and windows re-caulked/sealed will help...along with any other cracks or non-essential openings.


----------



## yooperdave

BobUrban said:


> I too have a loose house. Although built in 2000 it was not built by me and is not super tight or super high quality.
> 
> 
> 
> ]


 
Hard to believe that a house built 12 years ago has insulation issues...someone somewhere failed miserably!


----------



## HollowHill

Big, old house, limited insulation, poor windows.  The window film helps quite a bit.  I rarely see 70, happy with 65 in the far reaches of the house.  Find that to be quite comfortable.  By morning, its down to low 60s or high 50s, but it doesn't take all that long to get her up to temp.


----------



## dafattkidd

We bought this drafty ranch five years ago.  I cannot call it zero insulation, but it is not an exaggeration to call it very crappy insulation with gaping holes.  I have ripped, insulated and rebuilt two rooms and caulked throughout where it makes sense.  These have proven to have drastic improvements in the feel of our house.  We try to do one project/year.  I must admit, having an open project or two at all times in this house kinda sucks.  I'm really tired of living in a construction site (especially because I am the contractor, laborer, project manager, and paying client).  So there has been a trade off for us.  But we'll probably be here a while so hopefully it's worth it.


----------



## MaintenanceMan

As others have said. Start with your attic. It will be the easiest place to start and most effective place to spend your time and money.


----------



## Prof

I feel your pain--my house is lacking in the insulation department too. I have insulated the attic and have new cheapo ($189) windows. At least with the new windows I don't see the curtains move every time the wind blows! Other than that, the walls have zero insulation, and there is not reasonable way to insulate them. I only plan on staying in this house for a few years, and the neighborhood is not great, so there is little to be gained in resale value with more improvements than I have already made. When the wind really kicks up, it is hard keeping the house above 70. Of course, I also have a basement install that is less than ideal. I really can't wait to build a house so I can do these things right.


----------



## fishingpol

I had minimal insulation in our home when we bought it.  I won't go into details of all the work that had been done, but I will tell you a few things that made a difference.   The downstair floors were cold from the air infiltrating from the basement.  I picked up rigid foam insulation board and put that snug up between the joists in the basement.  That made a big difference.  The floors were much warmer in the winter time.  I used an ir thermometer to locate leaks and incense sticks to see how the air flowed in certain rooms and concentrated on leaks from there. 

Just two weeks ago I felt a draft in a corner where the floor met the mop board under the baseboard heat.  I ran a bead of caulking in there, but it did not fill it.  I found the caulking had run down to the basement in a void.  I will fill it with fiberglass insulation soon.  Any penetrations through the floor from the basement were filled when I had a Masssave audit done.  They found fist sized holes in the floors  under walls where electrical wires were run.  Electrical, plumbing and even holes for thermostat and speaker wires were filled.  Replacing the old single pane windows were done also and that made a huge difference.  The wall pockets where the window weights were had considerable leaks.  The pockets were caulked and filled with minimal expanding spray can foam.

Even badly worn door weatherstripping can make a difference when replaced.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

jwoair23 said:


> I have to be honest I have no experience with insulation or the costs involved. If I had to guess I would say we will be here a maximum of another 5 years, do you think the cost would be worth it when dealing with a 5 year timeframe?


You can insulate walls and ceilings (attic floor)in an existing house with blown in cellulose for less than $500. More like $250 for a small house.
I usually use 25 bags at $10@ for a 1/2 double house. I drill holes from the inside ,then blow the insulation then spackle the holes closed. Theres no reason not to do it unless you dont own the house ,but even them you will spend more to heat it than the insulation cost.


----------



## Woody Stover

MaintenanceMan said:


> As others have said. Start with your attic. It will be the easiest place to start and most effective place to spend your time and money.


Our place is log construction so I guess they provide some insulation, but the wind gets through between the logs and the "plaster." Actually, the inner walls are 1" or more of some kind of concrete stuff, with a skim coat of plaster. Man, that stuff sucks up heat like crazy! If I let the inside temp drop too low, it's hard to get it back up. Less than a degree per hour, less if it's windy. I've started plugging some big air leaks but probably half the heat goes into the concrete walls.
But as far as insulation, we noticed a _huge_ improvement when we had them blow the cellulose insulation into the attic. I would start there. You can probably also claim an energy credit on your taxes...


----------



## Lumber-Jack

Hmmm, nobody mentioned any energy grants from the government, do you guys have stuff like that down there?
When we renovated our house we applied for some energy grants, had to have a pre-inspection first before doing the work, then after adding insulation, upgrading windows and new heat-pump etc... , we ended up getting $3,500 back for fixing up our own home.  

One thing I`ll mention that a lot of people seem unfamiliar with when it comes to insulating and sealing up homes is *Backer Rod foam insulation*. This stuff is cheaper and easier to use then most other types of materials for insulating and sealing small cracks and hard to get places like around windows and doors. Beats using those spray cans of foam insulation, much cleaner and way cheaper.


----------



## BrowningBAR

jwoair23 said:


> Just curious what other's experience is with heating a home that has zero insulation. I have a 1929 brick home, and we have gotten our first real cold weather here this year, 21 degrees outside right now. If I have my insert absolutely cranking I can just barely maintain 70 degrees, but it has to be cranking constantly to do it. Overnight it dropped to about 65 in the house while I had the air turned down to get longer burns.
> 
> I have not a scrap/tuft/wisp/piece of insulation anywhere in the house, and sometimes it feels like I'm heating a screened in porch! Even if I let the fire go out and just ran the furnace, it would be on darn near constantly in these temperatures.
> 
> (I know cold is relative and some of you guys would think 20 degrees is warm  ).
> 
> Anyone else share my woes?


Hello, and welcome to the "How The Hell Do I Insulate And Heat This Damn Wind Tunnel" club. I've been a member for seven winters.

My challenges are:

Stone walls, also known as nature's winter ice cubes.
Cold rising up from under the floor, yet we have no basement or crawl space. It's like this place generates cold air.
Windows that are as tight as screen doors.
Doors that are as efficient as Swiss cheese.
All in all, I'm looking at $20-40k to tighten this 270+ year old bastard up so I am only a little drafty as oppose to a f**k-ton drafty. Several windows have more weight in caulking and spray insulation in and around them than the window probably weighs.

This place is less drafty than when I bought it, but it is still an efficiency nightmare (The word abor.tion is censored? Really?). Windy days are the worst.

My solution was to use all three chimneys and get the biggest stoves I could find on a super tight budget. Windy days still suck, but it only sucks because burn times drop a little bit and I might need to use more stoves than a non-windy day of the same temperature.

Previously, my furnace would run constantly, like yours, to maintain the temperature in the house due to the excessive amount of heat loss. Now, the furnace never runs.

So, I cut down on my heating bill by about $4k a winter, the home can maintain 70+ degree temps throughout the house (and 80+ degrees in each area with a stove), and I can now slowly begin to tighten this place up without destroying my budget.


----------



## DBoon

I'll second all the comments to start with the attic first.  Before you lay the insulation, make sure you weatherize and seal all of the openings.  The attic hatch is another big contributor - get a good tight seal on that as well.  Insulate to about R-50.  

Next, I would insulate the floor/crawl space.  I used 6" fiberglass R-19 batts - that seems pretty typical.  

My floor and ceiling cost about $1800 to insulate (I did the work myself) and my heating oil usage went from ~1000 gallons a year to 750 gallons a year. 

Then, I insulated my above ground basement walls with foam and insulated my walls with blown-in fiberglass.  I also weatherized my windows (but they were already pretty tight).  My oil usage dropped further to 550 gallons a year.   Cost was $4000 - the two inches of spray foam was half of that.  

Resource Conservation Technologies website has some good weathersealing products.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

I almost NEVER use fiberglass. Reasons? Blown in cellulose is Cheaper.Quicker and less invasive(when insulating existing wall) more R value per inch and a much tighter pack against air infiltration than you could ever get with fiberglass. Iv also seen fiberglass shrink away from the studs over time making it just about useless.


----------



## brian89gp

Have solid brick exterior walls I have to fight with.  Spring and fall are fine when the daily temperature swings keep the wall at a reasonable temperature but once winter sets in the wall chills down and it is a never ending battle.  It would be cheaper to move then to insulate the walls, so I deal with it.

Same with summer.  It will be 90+ for weeks on end then there will be a cold snap where it is in the 40's and 50's as a high.  My AC runs constantly through the cold snap cooling off the inside that the walls are working hard at to heat back up...


----------



## nate379

Contractor with the attitude "Won't see it from my house"
My place was supposed to be "at least" R45 in the attic.  Around the entrance it was, but where you couldn't see only had ~8" at best (R30).  Took close to 30 bags to get it up to R60 everywhere. 




yooperdave said:


> Hard to believe that a house built 12 years ago has insulation issues...someone somewhere failed miserably!


----------



## Ehouse

Someone mentioned govt. grants which is a good idea.  You should also check to see if you're in a historic district. Here in NY there is funding available for improvements, including energy related improvements for homes in such areas.  It's often not well known where these areas are.

Ehouse


----------



## Pallet Pete

We bought our home with no insulation and let me say no matter how big the stove it draws air through the cracks in your home and will freeze the skin right of off you ! We cranked the stove full blast and on the cold nights we where forced to run the furnace as well full blast just to stay warm. Strangely enough our windows are very good quality however that is no good unless everything else is insulated. Last year we finally got the house insulated and man what a difference it has made we can now load the stove once a day in fall and twice a day in the winter and stay in the 70's. insulation is the ticket for sure ! The only trick I can suggest if you have not already put an oak kit in so it won't draw so much through the walls and it should help stay a little warmer.


Edit) sorry could not find the link. Here is the insulation that I had done to my home as well as Dennis and a few others here. https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/so-begins-the-insulation-pics.83224/
Pete


----------



## peakbagger

Check with the local utilities to see if they have an weatherization programs or possibly free/low cost energy audits. The energy auditors have canned software that calculates payback on improvements so it can gvie you an idea on the best bang for the buck. Unless you are planning to sell the house for demolition or walk way at the end of five years its worth insulating. Pump in cellulose isnt that hard if you have a few friends to help out. Most place that sell it rent the blowers. If you are just blowing the attic, the biggest labor costs is installing proper vents to keep the insulation out of the gable ends. To do the walls requires removign a strip of siding and drilling holes between the stud bays with a core drill. None of this is really skilled work and the insulation contractors know it so they hire low wage workers and get the insulation at wholesale so they can sometimes be the same price as DIY. Plastic over windows works great and a case of caulking to sealing up any cracks is a great investment. Just wander around the house on cold day with rag so you can wet you hand, then move you hand along exterior surfaces, any drafts will be quite noticable. Either that or get your spouse/girlfriend/significant other to participate and let them find the drafts and follow up with some caulk and spray foam.

I know several folks who have heated old uninsulated homes in the NE, and 12 to 20 cords is not unusual.  They also experience the fun of frozen pipes and ice in the toilet in the morning.


----------



## Elle

I have an old house...1890 or something like that. Dad only had about 1/2 inch rigid foam under the paneling and that was it. I decided to insulate this year and put the wood stove off for a year until I get most of the house insulated. For my attic, I just put two layers of R-30 on the floor to cover it. Makes a HUGE difference upstairs. Not so much downstairs that I noticed-though there is still some work to be done and I'm thinking the effect might be more when I have the stove cranking.

I was talking the paneling off anyway...so I ripped that off, took all the plaster and lathe off (I honestly wanted to look at the knob and tube wiring cause I was sure mice were chewing it up) then put a 2x4 on the existing beam so I could fit R-19 batting in the walls. I also saw this thing on-line "poor man's spray foam" so I took the old rigid foam, put it against the weather board and put "great stuff" around the edges. That sealed off a good deal of the air coming in.I have about 1.5 rooms to do yet that have exterior walls. The kitchen is the cold spot in the house so I have to insulate the floor and get new windows...  that will be next summer before the stove install.

The reason I chose the batting as opposed to cellulose and such (which I was told many times to use) was that I did want to take the walls off anyway to look at the wiring (which I disconnected anyway) and by taking the walls off...I noticed that at least 3 feet of plaster was pooled at the bottom of the walls, so that would have been dead, uninsulated space had I not cleaned it out. I have also heard things about cellulose "settling" and such. I dunno..but..I had the opening so I used the batting.

Did a lot of caulking and filling in nooks and crannies and such. Still have a lot to do but it is much more efficient than it was. I can't wait to see the oil usage for the year and see how much it really helped.

As others have said...insulation should help with the resale value of the house for sure.


----------



## johnny1720

My house had no insulation the first year 2006, I literally had a $5000 fuel oil bill @ about $3.00 per gallon. I started gutting room by room, installing 2x4's so I had room for insulation. I ended up putting R90 in the attic, R15 in the walls, and on the one end of the house I did R21 (i put up 2x6's in the kitchen). I also replaced about 30 windows. Now I heat the house for about $1000 a year with geothermal.

If I had the chance to do it over again, I would have got the spray foam kits from tigerfoam. Then just R13 over the foam, most of my drafts now come from the electrical outlets and switches. I should pull the outlets and caulk and foam around them that would further increase my comfort. When I put up the insulation I was crazy careful but the drafts still come from the outlets.


----------



## WhitePine

johnny1720 said:


> If I had the chance to do it over again, I would have got the spray foam kits from tigerfoam.


 
At someone's suggestion, I had a particular reputable insulation contractor come in to do a small job ($300), which I had planned to do myself using a kit. I expected him to use a spray foam kit himself. Instead, he rolled up with his 20 foot foam trailer complete with 240V powered foam equipment. It took him longer to hook up to my AC service than it did to spray the foam. I asked him why he didn't simply use a spray foam kit. He took a good ten minutes to explain the mechanics and chemistry involved and the difference in results between the kits and the full blown machine.

I can't remember all the details, but it had a lot to do with temperature control, with the bottom line that was it is almost impossible for even a pro to do a proper job with the kits, so he simply doesn't use them, even though he would have a higher profit on the small jobs. He suggested that home owners were getting ripped off by the people pushing the kits.

FWIW, he came across as very honest and sincere to me.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

Those kits are incredibly expensive for the paltry area they cover. would you pay $100 for a 1" 4x8 foam insulation board? Thats about what you pay at $350 for 120 board feet of spray foam. I can insulate a whole house for less than one of these kits can do 1/2 of 1 room.


----------



## WhitePine

Seasoned Oak said:


> Those kits are incredibly expensive for the paltry area they cover. would you pay $100 for a 1" 4x8 foam insulation board? Thats about what you pay at $350 for 120 board feet of spray foam. I can insulate a whole house for less than one of these kits can do 1/2 of 1 room.


 
That's what I thought, too. And it's also why I jumped on the $300 offer to have a pro spray it. I would have spent a least that amount just to buy the kit.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

The key to blown insulation NOT settling is to install it with a strong unit. It needs to be packed tight(in walls) Just about any machine can blow insulation into an attic space,but in the walls it needs to be packed tight cuz it will relax over time. IF its too loose it will settle. IF it is packed good it will slowly relax but not settle. Iv already done  complete small houses (1500Sq ft) for around $200 My cost. A grand bargain if there ever was one.


----------



## jharkin

Seasoned Oak said:


> The key to blown insulation NOT settling is to install it with a strong unit. It needs to be packed tight(in walls) Just about any machine can blow insulation into an attic space,but in the walls it needs to be packed tight cuz it will relax over time. IF its too loose it will settle. IF it is packed good it will slowly relax but not settle. Iv already done complete small houses (1500Sq ft) for around $200 My cost. A grand bargain if there ever was one.


 
Yes walls MUST be dense packed. Its not just to prevent settling - its also to stop airflow.  Walls in old houses do not have vapor barriers and if you dont stop the convection currents you will trap moisture in the walls and cause rot.


----------



## johnny1720

I had a pro quote me to do my kitchen walls, 3 of them are exterior.  To put one 1" he quoted me 4k and I would have need fiberglass.  I ended up getting R21 fiberglass for $500 or so.   To do the same thing with the tigerfoam would have been $1200 + the $500 for the fiberglass.  I wished I had got another quote because the one I got was crazy high and it turned me off from foam.


----------

