# eko new (to the us) draft fan



## taxidermist (Jul 9, 2009)

I tried to get one of these from poland last season but they would not sell me one. now here they are and also being shipped with new EKO boilers.


http://www.newhorizoncorp.com/


here is a email I recived from zennon today about draft fan and door gaskets.

Yes, we do have silicone covered door gaskets and specially made draft inducers for E 60 . 
Prices $ 37gasket, $ 159 draft inducer, optional speed control $19 + shipping , 


Rob


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## deerefanatic (Jul 9, 2009)

Very cool. Thanks for getting us up to date on that... I will probably get one of those gaskets and keep it on hand for this winter......


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## Medman (Jul 9, 2009)

Thanks for this info.  I think I will get these items ordered today.
Does anyone think that the silicone door gasket solution will work for the draft fan cover?  I seem to have leaks in this area more than at the door seal.


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## stee6043 (Jul 9, 2009)

Are you guys able to order the gasket online or are you calling?  Just curious....


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## taxidermist (Jul 9, 2009)

Medman said:
			
		

> Thanks for this info.  I think I will get these items ordered today.
> Does anyone think that the silicone door gasket solution will work for the draft fan cover?  I seem to have leaks in this area more than at the door seal.




I dont think it is the same thickness but any gasket is better than the ones they come with. I think better screws is the answer for the fan cover sealing right.


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## taxidermist (Jul 9, 2009)

stee6043 said:
			
		

> Are you guys able to order the gasket online or are you calling?  Just curious....




I would just call them he dosent have a order page that I can find.


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## solarguy (Jul 9, 2009)

The newer Eko's w/ the fan in back creates a negative pressure in the loading chamber so the upgraded silicon gasket would not be needed.

Bob


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## stee6043 (Jul 9, 2009)

solarguy said:
			
		

> The newer Eko's w/ the fan in back creates a negative pressure in the loading chamber so the upgraded silicon gasket would not be needed.
> 
> Bob



Even the new EKO's will have positive pressure in the upper chamber when the unit is being used in RUN mode.  That's when folks have issues with the leaking door gaskets.  From what I've heard the new fans being provided are for loading only and are not intended to run during normal operation.  The EKO is still a positive pressure gasifier, not a negative pressure unit.


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## solarguy (Jul 9, 2009)

That's a negative.  I'm talking about the new, yet to be released Orlan-Eko boiler. 
Not the add the fan scenerio to control smoke from the upper chamber when loading.

Bob


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## Medman (Jul 9, 2009)

From what I have seen, the new version of the EKO is called PAXO.  It is still a positive pressure unit with the draft fan on the front.
It's painted yellow instead of green.
If there is a newer product out I have not seen it yet.

I emailed Zenon for pricing and got the same results as above; but I will call to order the parts.


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## taxidermist (Jul 9, 2009)

solarguy said:
			
		

> The newer Eko's w/ the fan in back creates a negative pressure in the loading chamber so the upgraded silicon gasket would not be needed.
> 
> Bob



I dont think this draft fan will run all the time. Only when the door is opened. I worked on a biomass 60 and when you opened the door the pressure fan shut off and the draft fan turned on. This allowed you to fill the burn chamber with wood and not get a face/building full of smoke.


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## solarguy (Jul 9, 2009)

The boiler I'm talking about is not the Paxo, it's a different model that will be coming in the future & will only be carried thru the dealer network of Eco-Orlan USA/ Alternative Heating of North America.

When Zennon's current inventory of Eko's are gone, he's out of the Eko game...

Bob


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## deerefanatic (Jul 10, 2009)

I talked to New Horizon today about the draft fan.

They said it can be run one of two ways:

Wired to 115v to clear the chamber when loading wood.
or
Wired to the fan controller and let run all the time in variable speed mode under control of the RK2001U.

Or, wired on a toggle switch that can select 115v, variable, and off.


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## taxidermist (Jul 10, 2009)

deerefanatic said:
			
		

> I talked to New Horizon today about the draft fan.
> 
> They said it can be run one of two ways:
> 
> ...




Unless you have a real bad drafting chiminey I would only use it to clear the smoke out when loading. You dont really want to pull the heat past the heax exchangers as you would just be pushing btus up the chiminey. That is the whole reason I put in a barometric damper because my chiminey drafts to well and was pulling the heat past the tubes and I seen increased chiminey temps.

Rob


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## Northwoodsman (Jul 13, 2009)

Greetings everyone,

I worked at the Michigan Energy Fair a few weeks ago and had the priveledge to meet Mark and Alisa from New York (Owners of AHONA).

He brought his Paxo Trailer for me to use at my show (I am now the Paxo dealer for Michigan) and it had a 2nd fan set up on it with a 3 position toggle switch that worked as everyone is saying.

When the door is opened this negative draft fan would remove the smoke so that it would not come out the door opening (it would operate at 100%). When the door was shut the fan would run at the same percentage as the positive draft fan on the front of the boiler. And yes, the boiler also had a barametric damper to regulate draft.

This set up worked very well for us at the energy show and we all had a great time.

I am in the process of building a portable Paxo boiler trailer that I will be taking to the Buckley Steam Engine show next month and also to the logging congress show in September.

NWM


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## Gooserider (Jul 16, 2009)

Does the Paxo need both fans to run in order to work properly?  What does this do to the electrical power consumption on the Paxo, compared to the single fan on the EKO?  If the second fan makes the Paxo burn more juice, I would see this as a real negative...  I don't mind the idea of a fan for short term use when loading or to get the fire going, but IMHO it is important to minimize electrical consumption during normal operation...  I didn't think the idea of burning wood in order to keep from giving our money to the dead dino guys was just so that we could give it to the electric guys...  I am of the opinion that one of the main drivers in the overall design of a system is the question of how much power does it draw, and how to minimize it - starting at the boiler and each step of the way out...

Gooserider


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## solarguy (Jul 16, 2009)

The Paxo, like the Eko has one fan from the manufacturer. The 2nd fan is a field installed draft inducer.  The Paxo in the trailer has a little chimney & the inducer is needed for proper draft. One would only use an inducer with this boiler if their chimney had poor draft or if you couldn't get the breeching up to the correct stack temperature to reduce condensation. Many have used an inducer to create a negative draft thru the upper door when open for loading. 

Bob


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## Gooserider (Jul 16, 2009)

solarguy said:
			
		

> The Paxo, like the Eko has one fan from the manufacturer. The 2nd fan is a field installed draft inducer.  The Paxo in the trailer has a little chimney & the inducer is needed for proper draft. One would only use an inducer with this boiler if their chimney had poor draft or if you couldn't get the breeching up to the correct stack temperature to reduce condensation. Many have used an inducer to create a negative draft thru the upper door when open for loading.
> 
> Bob



That sounds more reasonable - I know the stuff I'd seen on the Paxo seemed to say it came with both the inducer and the front pressure fans, but it wasn't as clear that the inducer isn't needed in most cases other than as a loading aid...

Gooserider


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## deerefanatic (Jul 17, 2009)

The Paxo is just a yellow EKO from what I've been told...... Different sheetmetal shape too..... Just cosmetic stuff to differentiate them from the New Horizon's stuff.


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## Medman (Jul 24, 2009)

I ordered the draft inducer, gasket, and speed control today from Zenon at New Horizon.  Has anyone else installed the gasket or inducer yet?

I will post pics when they arrive and then when installed.


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## Medman (Jul 30, 2009)

Here are the pictures, as promised.
Draft Fan, from the boiler end, it has an 8 inch flange, and from the stack end it has a 6 inch flange:

Also seen in the picture is the fan speed control, which is merely a router speed control adapted to the fan.


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## Medman (Jul 30, 2009)

I think I am going to have some difficulty adapting this fan to my chimney, since I come out of the boiler and transition from 8 inch double wall black pipe to 7 inch double wall pipe.  I don't know how well I can adapt the fan's 6 inch outlet to the 7 inch pipe.

I'm not that impressed with the wiring for the fan either.  I think I will change the configuration for safety's sake.

The fan does move a lot of air at max speed.  I think it will provide more than enough draft when loading the boiler.  I do not intend to run the fan when burning normally.


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## pybyr (Jul 30, 2009)

Can you give a ball-park indication on the draft booster fan pricing?  Thanks


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## Medman (Jul 30, 2009)

Sure - fan was 160, speed control was 19, and I had the fan and speed control shipped with the gaskets I ordered for 22.00 shipping.


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## deerefanatic (Jul 30, 2009)

Let me tell ya... I've burned one fire in my EKO since hooking it up.... The draft fan does clear out the smoke really dandy like.........


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## Gooserider (Jul 30, 2009)

Medman said:
			
		

> I think I am going to have some difficulty adapting this fan to my chimney, since I come out of the boiler and transition from 8 inch double wall black pipe to 7 inch double wall pipe.  I don't know how well I can adapt the fan's 6 inch outlet to the 7 inch pipe.
> 
> I'm not that impressed with the wiring for the fan either.  I think I will change the configuration for safety's sake.
> 
> The fan does move a lot of air at max speed.  I think it will provide more than enough draft when loading the boiler.  I do not intend to run the fan when burning normally.



I agree on the fan wiring...  It looks very "Mickey Mouse" to me, and I have trouble believing that it would meet any sort of code listing...  The only time I've ever seen that sort of spiral wrap over individual conductors setup is either in a non-AC application, or with a motor that is hard wired into an appliance such that the wires were NOT exposed to normal users...  If temperature is an issue, they make high temperature line cord material, so that shouldn't be the reason for the odd setup.  I'm not an expert on UL etc. stuff, but my recollection is that they generally want to see any sort of line cord drawing more juice than a table lamp, or anything permanently installed (which IMHO the inducer would be considered to be) to have a jacketed type cable to protect the conductors from harm, and that spiral wrap doesn't cut it in that regard...  OTOH the controller wiring looks fine.

The other thing I was trying to figure out from the photos is how the unit moves the smoke through it...  I assume there is some sort of squirrel cage blower or equivalent on the end of the motor shaft, but what is the air flow?  Where does the smoke go in and come out?  Maybe more / different photos from a different angle might help?

Gooserider


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## Medman (Jul 30, 2009)

I'll try to get a better photo tonight.  The fan blade is a flat assembly, seen in the second picture at the top.  Smoke is drawn up into the fan shroud inside the square housing and exits through the slot at the  top of the smaller 6 inch opening seen in the second picture.

I am going to put a small plastic junction box on the side of the motor itself, and run new shielded wiring from the box to the speed control.  I am going to mount the speed control near the front of the boiler to have the control handy when loading.


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## stee6043 (Jul 30, 2009)

Medman said:
			
		

> Here are the pictures, as promised.
> Draft Fan, from the boiler end, it has an 8 inch flange, and from the stack end it has a 6 inch flange:
> 
> Also seen in the picture is the fan speed control, which is merely a router speed control adapted to the fan.



Is there any chance you could give us the "inlet to outlet" measurement?  As in - how much pipe needs to come out of an existing chimney setup to put this inducer in?  And can you mount it in just about any orientation?  Thanks!


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## Medman (Jul 30, 2009)

Stee, that was one measurement I didnt take, but I would ball-park the enclosure at 10 inches square.  I think you could mount it in any position, but given the amount of flyash I get in the pipe, I would try to have the motor on top if mounting the inducer horizontally or on a 45* angle.

In my setup I may replace the 8-7 inch reducer I have attached to the boiler flue collar.  The inducer would then enter the horizontal port of the 7 inch tee.


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## stee6043 (Jul 30, 2009)

Medman said:
			
		

> Stee, that was one measurement I didnt take, but I would ball-park the enclosure at 10 inches square.  I think you could mount it in any position, but given the amount of flyash I get in the pipe, I would try to have the motor on top if mounting the inducer horizontally or on a 45* angle.
> 
> In my setup I may replace the 8-7 inch reducer I have attached to the boiler flue collar.  The inducer would then enter the horizontal port of the 7 inch tee.



Thanks, Medman.  I find this deeply interesting and it seems the price you paid was less than folks were originally talking about.  My application would require me to retain my existing 8" tee and 8" 90 defree elblow before installing the inducer.  From there I go to 6" insulated.  It could be tight for me.  Thanks for the info!


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## deerefanatic (Jul 30, 2009)

I don't know about the ones you got, but mine is labeled with a specific orientation....  The motor needs to be on the side, specifically the right side when facing the boiler from the front....


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## Medman (Jul 30, 2009)

There were no instructions on the inducer. no labels, nothing.  Does mine look the same as the one you received?

As for price, $160 was from Zenon at New Horizon.  Cozy heat quoted $243, but couldn't get the fan until the end of summer.
It is entirely possible that there are two different units out there.


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## deerefanatic (Jul 31, 2009)

Yes, mine looks just like yours......  Exactly.......


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## Medman (Jul 31, 2009)

Okay - more pics.

Here is the exixting chimney coming apart:


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## Medman (Jul 31, 2009)

Here is the 8 to 7 inch reducer I am replacing:

I paid over $90 for that reducer, and it took two weeks to get here. 
Anybody want to buy a doublewall reducer?


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## Medman (Jul 31, 2009)

Here is the inducer with scale:

It is 13.5" overall, with flanges being about two inches.

Matt, did you have a gap between the 8 inch collar on the inducer and the flue collar on the EKO?  I am seeing a gap of about 1/4" all the way around.  I think that I will use a fiberglass rope gasket to seal the gap, and drill and tap the flue collar to hold the inducer, as it is quite heavy.
On the outlet, the inducer will just slip inside the 7 inch tee fitting, so I'm good there.


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## Medman (Jul 31, 2009)

Finally, here is the side view of the inducer, as requested.


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## deerefanatic (Jul 31, 2009)

Mine was a TIGHT, VERY TIGHT fit on the boiler collar.... I had to pound it on with a rubber hammer...... 2 screws for security's sake and then I sealed it up with RTV silicone....... 

I will add, that the way you have the inducer sitting right now, is the correct orientation....


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## Medman (Jul 31, 2009)

Must be a manufacturing difference between the 25 and the 60.  Thanks for the input.


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## stee6043 (Aug 7, 2009)

I placed my order today for thew fan and the new gasket.  I'll post some pic's to your thread here.  I'm interested to see if I get the same unit you received.  Sounds like there may be some variability out there....


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## Medman (Aug 20, 2009)

I'm back from vacation and have completed the install of the draft fan and variable speed control.
Here is the completed draft fan:

You can see the box I attached to the motor to house the wiring, the new wiring that runs to the speed control, and the speed control mount on the right side of the loading door.


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## Medman (Aug 20, 2009)

Here is a detail of the screws I used to attach the flange of the inducer to the boiler.
Cleanout of the chimney is still accomplished the same way - I take off the bottom of the tee and use the shop-vac to reach up and into the inducer, and I reach through the upper chamber and clean out the by-pass damper with a long extension on the vac.


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## Medman (Aug 20, 2009)

In case any of you are wondering why I chose to run the chimney this way, it's because I am using an existing chimney in my workshop that had previously been installed for a woodstove.  It had not had a stove connected for several years, and when I removed the insulation stuffed into the thimble I discovered several mummified bats!  So far this summer I have had three or four more bats find their way down the chimney.  If they are still alive I try to capture and release them, but most often they are dead.


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## stee6043 (Aug 20, 2009)

Looks good.  And funny story about the bats.  

I'll have to post some photos when I get mine installed.  Mine was pretty heavily damaged when I received it so it's taken me a week just to get it running.  Zenon offered to work with me but I didn't want to be sending bits and pieces back and forth.

Let us know how yours burns.  I'm most interested to see how well the unit holds up to high temps.  Especially the foam pad between the motor plate and the blower housing.  I can see that needing to be replaced with some good 'ole RTV sealant after not too long...


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## Hydronics (Aug 20, 2009)

Looks like a quality inducer.
Is the speed controller variable or multiple steps?
Are you guys planning to use them only while loading? If so I wonder how well the motor will withstand the heat without spinning to cool it.
It should be helpful when getting a fire going initially, even with the bypass door open.


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## Medman (Aug 20, 2009)

Speed control is a smooth action pot for variable control, not a stepped switch.  It is an off-the-shelf woodworking router speed control box.

For now, I plan to use only when loading.  There is an air gap between the inducer and the motor which should help reduce the heat, and I only see stack temps of 300* or so anyway.  I think I will try to use the fan when starting as well.
Stee, the foam does concern me.  I know deerefanatic has fired his boiler with the inducer in place.  Matt, any comment on the foam gasket?


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## stee6043 (Aug 20, 2009)

Medman said:
			
		

> Speed control is a smooth action pot for variable control, not a stepped switch.  It is an off-the-shelf woodworking router speed control box.
> 
> For now, I plan to use only when loading.  There is an air gap between the inducer and the motor which should help reduce the heat, and I only see stack temps of 300* or so anyway.  I think I will try to use the fan when starting as well.
> Stee, the foam does concern me.  I know deerefanatic has fired his boiler with the inducer in place.  Matt, any comment on the foam gasket?



Yeah...as discussed earlier in this thread the "controls/wiring" on this unit are less than impressive, but seem functional.  I'd love to hear some feedback on the foam.  I can get stack temps of 400 when things are really cranking, depending on the weather and the wood of course.  But for me 400 seems to be the sweet spot for gasification.

Like Medman I plan to use this when starting and when loading.  I think it'll be a big help for me on the REALLY cold days.  When highs are still below zero I have a heck of a time getting draft since my chimney is external with only a chase around it...


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## rsnider (Aug 20, 2009)

the motor seems to be the same one on my biomass boiler (dayton). i had my boiler for a week and the motor stopped working (overheated) or something like that. after changing it out with the new motor found the flapper for exhaust was hitting the fan blade i fixed that and problem solved. my second motor worked great all winter but this summer i went to start up the fan blade just to make sure everything still looking good motor doing same thing as old one just sit there and hummmmmm and then make odd noises. time to call zenon again for new motor. by the way no other problems with boiler works great just the fan motor burning up.


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## stee6043 (Aug 20, 2009)

rsnider said:
			
		

> the motor seems to be the same one on my biomass boiler (dayton). i had my boiler for a week and the motor stopped working (overheated) or something like that. after changing it out with the new motor found the flapper for exhaust was hitting the fan blade i fixed that and problem solved. my second motor worked great all winter but this summer i went to start up the fan blade just to make sure everything still looking good motor doing same thing as old one just sit there and hummmmmm and then make odd noises. time to call zenon again for new motor. by the way no other problems with boiler works great just the fan motor burning up.



Odd...my motor is an A.O.Smith brand.  I can only assume it was previously intended to be used to power vent domestic hot water heaters....


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## deerefanatic (Aug 21, 2009)

I'm not sure on the foam in the inducer..... I have a feeling it's actually some kind of hi-temp fiber board..... 

Either way, I've only fired twice with no probs so far.... Winter will tell.......


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## Tony H (Sep 24, 2009)

Has anyone taken a look at disassembling the unit and installing the inducer into the existing double wall pipe ?
I have a T right off the back of the boiler and then straight up and out so adding the EKO inducer unit would require me to cut a new hole in the roof of the shed and that's just not practical. 
I also looked at another unit that can mount in the vertical on/into the existing duct from Tjernlund that looks like it would work. 
Any thoughts ?


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## Hydronics (Sep 24, 2009)

Can you take out a length of the double wall and install the damper vertically there after your 90? The one I have from New Horizon for the EKO 60 has a 8.5" inlet and a 6" outlet. Based upon the way it's made it wouldn't work to try and fit it in a double wall pipe.


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## Medman (Sep 24, 2009)

Or install on back of boiler, then Tee, then two 45* sections to get back to original pipe.  I don't see why the draft inducer wouldn't work in the vertical position, though.
It is not practical to disassemble, as the fan housing is welded together.


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## Hydronics (Sep 24, 2009)

Medman,
Does your inducer have a 6" outlet also?


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## Medman (Sep 24, 2009)

Yes, the same as others.  On the EKO 25 the 8 inch flange is loose on the back of the boiler.  I detailed how to fill this gap.


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## pybyr (Sep 24, 2009)

Tony H said:
			
		

> Has anyone taken a look at disassembling the unit and installing the inducer into the existing double wall pipe ?
> I have a T right off the back of the boiler and then straight up and out so adding the EKO inducer unit would require me to cut a new hole in the roof of the shed and that's just not practical.
> I also looked at another unit that can mount in the vertical on/into the existing duct from Tjernlund that looks like it would work.
> Any thoughts ?



The Tjernlund and other "cut a hole in the side of the flue pipe and install a paddle/pusher wheel" types always under-impressed me, both in terms of seeming flimsy and costing a lot for what they actually are.

I keep thinking that if I can find the right steel-bladed fan that's a bit under 8 inches in diameter, it'd be interesting to put a T on the back of the boiler, with the middle of the T on the boiler, one side of the T headed to the flue; then put a cap on the other end of the tee- with a shaft running through to mount the bladed fan inside the T on the "exhaust" side.  There'd need to be a reasonably tight fit on the shaft where it goes through the cap and into the T, and ideally, the electric motor driving the fan could be on standoffs to give air clearance to minimize heat transfer from wood exhaust to the motor.  This'd just be for a boost when loading wood, to minimize smoke spill.  Having the fan in the path of the regular flue flow, when the fan blades are not spinning, would probably have some impacts on draft, but hopefully not too significant.  Just need to keep my eye out for an approx 6 - 7 inch diameter steel bladed fan, which I have not come across yet.


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## Tony H (Sep 24, 2009)

Hydronics said:
			
		

> Can you take out a length of the double wall and install the damper vertically there after your 90? The one I have from New Horizon for the EKO 60 has a 8.5" inlet and a 6" outlet. Based upon the way it's made it wouldn't work to try and fit it in a double wall pipe.



The situation is the shed is not very tall or very deep. from the top of the T it's 18"  to the roof and from the back of the T it's 24"       to the back wall of the shed and the pipe is 6" so there has to be a reducer as well.
I thought about going out the back of the shed but besides EKO saying not to it would also cut right across my access to all the piping on that wall. What is the length of the damper ? Could it fit in the 18 vertical space with an adapter ?

After looking back over some of the earlier posts it appears the length is 13.5 " so that gives me 4.5 " to adapt and attach the inducer in a vertical space.
Does that sound correct and installable to those of you with units installed ?

Thanks



Note: build the next shed bigger alot bigger !


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## easternbob (Sep 25, 2009)

I just installed a Tjernlund draft inducer for my EKO 25, a few days ago. I used RTV where the flange screws into the stove pipe, seems like a tightish conection.  I fire it up the next day and so far it seems to work great.  My boiler is in a outside building so I was never super concerned about smoke, but now there was no smoke when I was loading.  I even opened the door a few mins after loading an arm full of small branches and no smoke.  I'm not running it all the time, I wired a toggle switch next to the controler, I click that on, open the by-pass, then slowly open the door, no smoke.  I did notice that it was really pulling a draft when starting, I'll have to watch the stack temp. as I think it could get up there quick.
Bob


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## Hydronics (Sep 25, 2009)

Tony H,
It should fit between there. How close will you be to combustible wood framing though? I'd use cement backer board on the wood to protect it from stack heat.
I know what you mean about making the shed bigger. I'm pouring another slab tomorrow to make the wood/boiler building bigger.


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## Tony H (Sep 25, 2009)

Hydronics said:
			
		

> Tony H,
> It should fit between there. How close will you be to combustible wood framing though? I'd use cement backer board on the wood to protect it from stack heat.
> I know what you mean about making the shed bigger. I'm pouring another slab tomorrow to make the wood/boiler building bigger.



No worries with framing, the shed is all metal. Guess I better get an order in for that inducer before they are all sold.


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## Tony H (Sep 25, 2009)

Order is in should be here in about a week got the whole deal , inducer , speed control, and gasket for my EKO 40. My gasket has been pretty good but I figured it would be good to have one on hand.


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## markpee (Sep 28, 2009)

Some of you have mentioned a barometric damper - for those with this, does it help suck smoke up the chimney when you open the door?  I don't have one on my unit, nor do those that posted pics here.  What would be the purpose of the damper at this point?  I like the damper idea, but all of my chimney piping is 8" - I'm not in the mood for making a big change.


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## stee6043 (Sep 28, 2009)

I don't think you could run the fan and a baro-damper at the same time/on the same boiler.  Not unless you manually close the damper before you turn on the fan.  Otherwise I'm pretty sure the damper would simply open up when the fan kicked on preventing you from "overdrafting" your boiler.  But in effect this would be eliminating the benefit you gain from the fan.


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## Hydronics (Sep 29, 2009)

Stee,
This will work as long as you put the damper on the discharge of the inducer. The inducer is hinged & weighted so that it will open as pressure is reduced (draft) inside the tee. Set up this way the inducer will increase pressure at the damper.
Just for the sake of complicating things -smile-: the inducer is actually acting based on the differential pressure inside (draft) and outside (atmospheric). Life's too easy if we don't complicate things....


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## taxidermist (Sep 30, 2009)

markpee said:
			
		

> Some of you have mentioned a barometric damper - for those with this, does it help suck smoke up the chimney when you open the door?  I don't have one on my unit, nor do those that posted pics here.  What would be the purpose of the damper at this point?  I like the damper idea, but all of my chimney piping is 8" - I'm not in the mood for making a big change.




No it does not help to suck the smoke out. It makes the draft in the chimney less so it is not sucking the heat up the chimney. It also lets you get a better tune to your boiler. If your a motor head it works like this..... You set your timing on your car at idle when you rev your motor the timing does not change unless you have tha vaccume advance hooked up. so there for you lose performace.

Watch video!

Rob


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## stee6043 (Sep 30, 2009)

Hydronics said:
			
		

> Stee,
> This will work as long as you put the damper on the discharge of the inducer. The inducer is hinged & weighted so that it will open as pressure is reduced (draft) inside the tee. Set up this way the inducer will increase pressure at the damper.
> Just for the sake of complicating things -smile-: the inducer is actually acting based on the differential pressure inside (draft) and outside (atmospheric). Life's too easy if we don't complicate things....



I was basing my guesses on someone putting the damper below the T coming out of the back of the boiler (pre inducer).  I've seen this a few times now.  In this orientation I'm rather confident it wouldn't work....


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## Gooserider (Sep 30, 2009)

I don't remember just how it was set up, but I do distinctly remember when I was up at the Maine Woodsman show, Eko / PAXO had their mobile trailer there with a boiler burning - and it had both a BD and an inducer on it.  I thought the BD was below the "T" and the inducer above it, but I could be remembering wrongly.  At any rate, there certainly wasn't anything coming out of the BD when the inducer was running.

My own guess (which does contradict the above) is that if the inducer is between the boiler and the BD then there shouldn't be a problem with the BD supplying the feed to the inducer instead of the boiler.  However in that setup you would want to make sure that the chimney was always pulling more draft than the inducer could provide, or else you would have a risk of the exhaust coming out the BD instead of going up the chimney.

OTOH, it might not make a lot of difference if the inducer is pulling part of it's air through the BD.  Remember the BD only opens to supply air IN EXCESS of what it is set for - the rest is going to come from the boiler...  Thus if the BD is set for 0.4"WC and the inducer is making 0.6" then 0.4" is going to come through the boiler, and only the remaing 0.2" will come through the BD.  (Remember the inducer is a relatively gentle air mover, it isn't like you were putting a shop-vac in line with the chimney...)  My understanding of how one is supposed to use the inducer, is that it only gets used when lighting off a fresh load, or when openning the top door for loading.  In both cases you are supposed to have the bypass flap open, which will result in the boiler draft resistance being close to zero, so most, if not all the supply to the inducer should come from the boiler, regardless of whether there is a BD present or not, as long as the BD is properly set.

Gooserider


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## Hydronics (Sep 30, 2009)

It should work either way but putting the BD on the inlet of the inducer would waste some of the energy.


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## Gooserider (Sep 30, 2009)

Hydronics said:
			
		

> It should will work either way but putting the BD on the inlet of the inducer would waste some of the energy.



IMHO it would waste energy ONLY if the inducer is pulling more air into it than the boiler can supply without giving more resistance than the setting on the BD.  If the boiler resistance is less then the air will come in via the boiler and the BD will stay closed.  If the boiler resistance is greater, then some of the air will come through the boiler, and the BD will open just enough to supply the difference - but is this really a problem???  If it is, wouldn't it be a simple matter to either increase the setting on the BD, or turn down the speed on the inducer?

Note that at least in theory, it wouldn't be at all difficult to create an electromagnet or motorized way to force the BD to close when the inducer was operating.  That there doesn't seem to be such a product commonly on the market would suggest to me that it probably isn't seen as being needed...

Gooserider


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## Hydronics (Oct 1, 2009)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> Hydronics said:
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It's not a problem provided there is adequate draft after the BD opens to prevent smoke out the door if that's your goal. The BD setting should be based on the desired draft under normal operation. If you set it up with the BD on the inducer's discharge none of this is an issue & you can turn down the speed to where it's only enough to prevent smoke out the door. The inducer won't pull air needlessly through the BD. This will minimize energy usage, granted, it's minimal.
If you intend to operate the boiler with the inducer running you wouldn't want to do this as it makes the BD ineffective unless chimney draft is greater than the inducer's. If that's the case, the inducer wouldn't be needed in the first place.


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## Gooserider (Oct 1, 2009)

Hydronics said:
			
		

> Gooserider said:
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The more I think abou this, the more I feel that having the BD on the discharge side of the inducer is a BAD idea...  As you said, if the chimney is drafting more than the inducer is pushing, then the inducer wouldn't really be needed.  OTOH, if the chimney is drafting LESS than the inducer, then the inducer is going to be positively pressurizing the chimney on it's discharge side, meaning that smoke will potentially come out any openings, and BD's do NOT seal air-tight when closed...  

OTOH if the BD is on the intake side of the inducer, along with the boiler, then any positive pressure on the inducer discharge side should be no problem, as long as the rest of the chimney is properly sealed.  The inducer will help to ensure that the chimney on the intake side is definitely under negative pressure, thus reducing the odds of any smoke coming out the BD.

Gooserider


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## Hydronics (Oct 1, 2009)

Gooserider said:
			
		

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If draft is less than inducer pressure you could potentially get a whiff of smoke out the 1/32" opening but this could ONLY happen when loading & nothing compared to what would be rolling out the loading door without an inducer.

Fortunately, if you install one you're free to set it up however you may choose... It will probably work well either way.


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## pybyr (Oct 6, 2009)

Here's another $0.02 on the topic of mixing draft inducers and barometric dampers;

for intro to my comments below, I have a B.D. on my Econoburn and believe that they can be a positive (even important) part of system efficiency _if_ set up properly (right setting for proper draft); I also have nothing against decent quality draft inducers- in fact, I may want to try one at some point.

But one thing to factor in is that, in my experience (and from what I have heard from others, too), gasifiers seem to send more/ finer ash dust into the flue than many other wood-burning heat units.  I don't think that's any reason to avoid a gasifier (I would much rather have dust in the flue than creosote)  However, barometric dampers are _far_ from a tight seal even when "fully shut."  I would want to keep an eye on whether dust could come out the damper when the draft booster is running, and/ or also whether more dust would accumulate in the damper to be waiting to be ejected rather stunningly if you ever get a "puffback" (which gasifiers will occasionally do, especially with someone who is new to the learning curve).  When I was still getting the hang of starting and re-loading, I got a few puffbacks that did blow some fine ash out of the B.D.

As I said, none of these things are any reason not to put in a damper or an inducer-- just some things to keep an eye on.


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## sfriedri (Oct 21, 2009)

Have any of you with the new draft fan tried using it on its own as the only source of draft during normal operation of the EKO?  I have an EKO40 and am wondering if it would be possible to use the draft inducer fan to basically convert the EKO into a negative draft unit.  The draft inducer fan could be hooked up to replace the standard draft fan on the front of the boiler, so that the controller turns it off and on and regulates the speed.  You could then have a DPDT switch to turn the fan to full power for loading.

For those of you with the fans installed it would be easy to do a temporary test - just disconnect the front draft fan and turn on the draft inducer fan.  The only challenge is that you will not be able to open the bottom door to check the gassification, since this would just cause the fan to pull air through the open door rather than through the gassification nozzels.  The only way you could check the boiler was firing properly would be the stack temperature.


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## pybyr (Oct 21, 2009)

SWF said:
			
		

> Have any of you with the new draft fan tried using it on its own as the only source of draft during normal operation of the EKO?  I have an EKO40 and am wondering if it would be possible to use the draft inducer fan to basically convert the EKO into a negative draft unit.  The draft inducer fan could be hooked up to replace the standard draft fan on the front of the boiler, so that the controller turns it off and on and regulates the speed.  You could then have a DPDT switch to turn the fan to full power for loading.
> 
> For those of you with the fans installed it would be easy to do a temporary test - just disconnect the front draft fan and turn on the draft inducer fan.  The only challenge is that you will not be able to open the bottom door to check the gassification, since this would just cause the fan to pull air through the open door rather than through the gassification nozzels.  The only way you could check the boiler was firing properly would be the stack temperature.



I think that what you're describing is intriguing in concept, but even speaking as someone who frequently disregards "don't try this at home" I think you'd run into some complications that may make it far beyond 'diminishing returns.'  

The downdraft gasifiers with blowers on the air input have separate and at least partly adjustable orifices to control ratio of air into the primary firebox and the refractory's air channels.  

I tend to think that balancing those would become different and more complex if you completely change to a flue-side-suction configuration.  I also tend to doubt that the EKO-type flue-sideinducer has anywhere near the "mojo" that the forced-draft-inlet blower does.  

Add all that up and I think you'll get a system that is more complex and does not perform as well.  Again, I'm an experimenter who rarely leaves well enough alone... but it seems as if-- unless you are just out of other things to play with-- you're better off either using and enjoying as-is or swapping the unit out for a unit that has been comprehensively engineered to run off of a flue-side fan.  

I'll be happy to hear that I am wrong if you try this and make it work.


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## Medman (Oct 22, 2009)

I agree - I don't think that the draft inducer could provide the suction needed, and control of the fire would be an issue.
Also, you would want to make sure that your flue connections were completely airtight - the positive pressure the inducer creates in the pipe can cause smoke and fine ash to leak out of any joint not sealed.  Trust me, I know.

There are systems out there that use negative pressure to create the gasification, but these have been engineered for that purpose, and I suspect that the motor on the draft fan is more robust and better isolated from the flue heat than the EKO drafr inducer.  
The inducer does make it a breeze to start fires, though!


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## shoeboxlen (Oct 22, 2009)

I put the new gasket on my eko 25 and decided to hold off on the additional expense of the draft fan and so far I have had 0 issues with the smoke smell. I do have plenty of draft with a 2 story chimney though. I guess I am saying give the gasket a shot before you pull the trigger on the draft fan especially if you have a good drafting chimney. You may save yourself 150 beans.


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## stee6043 (Oct 22, 2009)

shoeboxlen said:
			
		

> I put the new gasket on my eko 25 and decided to hold off on the additional expense of the draft fan and so far I have had 0 issues with the smoke smell. I do have plenty of draft with a 2 story chimney though. I guess I am saying give the gasket a shot before you pull the trigger on the draft fan especially if you have a good drafting chimney. You may save yourself 150 beans.



True story....but the draft fan is more of a fix for "smoke while loading" than it is for the leaky door seal, me thinks.  At least that's why I bought it.  I can stand and roast marshmellows in the upper chamber now with no smoke in the house....should I be in the mood for marshmellows.


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## shoeboxlen (Oct 22, 2009)

I hear ya as long as I dont leave the door all the way open for an xtended period I do not get smoked out. I just crack the dorr an inch or so when I first open it up to load let the draft get moving open the door throw in some wood close it down to the inch opening and releat as needed. my little trick nothing great but saves me some $


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