# Any regrets on insert?



## pigc (Dec 1, 2014)

Hello everyone!

I've been spending numerous hours on this site the last several weeks and really have learned a lot.  I'm about to pull the trigger on a wood insert.  I've been burning in an open fireplace that has mesh and glass doors the past seven years.  I realize that I am losing a great deal of heat up the chimney but the radiant heat is wonderful in the family room and kitchen.

Our house is 2200 sq. ft on the main level and 800 finished in the basement.  An addition was added in '06 by the previous homeowners.  We now have two furnaces.  My goal is to eliminate one of the furnaces (which the fireplace does pretty well I feel).  Our fireplace is in the family room with interior chimney.

I love the open crackle and flames of the fireplace and I can usually get overnight burns with large 12-14" rounds.  This is something I'm afraid that I will miss plus not be able to fit some of the wood I currently have cut and stacked.  I have a nearly limitless supply of dry, dead wood so that's not really an issue although I would be up for the wood lasting longer.

I'm thinking it will take several years for an insert to pay for itself (like 15) with natural gas being relatively cheap. Also, it seems that these inserts have a bit of a learning curve.  Doesn't get much easier with my setup now, guess it's all about the air control.

My main question is am I making a *$4k+* mistake or should I just pull the trigger and don't look back?!  Does anyone who has burned an open fireplace previously regret their decision on an insert?


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## cableman (Dec 1, 2014)

I just installed an insert for a friend who has been burning an open fireplace for 20 years. They hate change! I was afraid they would both complain, but the other day they said no regrets at all couldnt be happier.


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## mellow (Dec 1, 2014)

Even with free wood you are looking at 15 year ROI?


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## branchburner (Dec 1, 2014)

pigc said:


> Does anyone who has burned an open fireplace previously regret their decision on an insert?



My wife and I both love fireplaces. When oil prices spiked in '08, I said "no more." Although she wanted neither, the wife was adamant about getting a freestanding stove over an insert for our main fireplace, that we could quickly go back to a fireplace if wanted. She hasn't wanted, and loves the stove. No regrets.

Burning an open fireplace pulled plenty of outside air into our leaky house. Forced hot air at 70f meant 80f air in our faces and 60f air on our feet, exactly the opposite of what we like. Many fewer cold and flu episodes since we've gone 100% wood. And our stove (bought used) paid for itself before the first burning season was over.

A large firebox will easily get you long overnight burns and use far less wood than the fireplace, and generate far more heat, in doing so. A big glass door means you won't miss the flames of the fire, and the radiant heat of the stove extends far beyond the few feet of an open fire.

One advantage of a freestanding stove over an insert is better heat during power outages (we just lost power for 48+ hours). Either way, I think you will be making a good investment even if gas prices stay low.

Welcome to the forums!


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## Adios Pantalones (Dec 1, 2014)

15 year ROI sounds really fishy. I love my insert- I calculated a very short payback, but was replacing oil in a  somewhat drafty (but smaller) house.


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## Doug Doty (Dec 1, 2014)

Having the wife be able to back up to the wood or pellet burner and warm her buns nullifies the need for any ROI at my house.


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## pigc (Dec 1, 2014)

mellow said:


> Even with free wood you are looking at 15 year ROI?



I very well could be under-estimating the savings.  Our gas bills aren't that high (approx. 150-200 in peak heating season) for both furnaces.  So I calculated a savings of $75 a month for 5 heating months of the year.
75x5x14=$5250.  Maybe closer to 10 might be more accurate.  I certainly don't think 2-5 like many have stated would be applicable in my situation.


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## mellow (Dec 1, 2014)

Some still go with wood even though the ROI is cheaper with other forms of heat, maybe you need to look at this for backup or secondary heat and get a smaller stove.


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## branchburner (Dec 1, 2014)

If you have a nearly limitless supply of dry, dead wood and wanted to put it to use, you could easily cut your gas bill even more greatly and realize a quicker ROI, if that was a goal. Not only will an efficient stove or insert do a lot of heating, it will cut the inflow of cold combustion air that feeds your current open fireplace. 

Is it possible that your gas bill might actually go down if you simply stopped using your fireplace? I used to think my fireplace was helping heat the house, but I'm not so sure it wasn't making it cooler in net. But then, I did not have glass doors, and had a huge flue that was left open all night as the coals died, so your setup may be much more efficient.


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## slayer7 (Dec 1, 2014)

Put the insert in during 2009 after the brutal 2008 heating season with sky-high oil prices. We liked burning the fireplace for the ambiance and warmth that it provided for the living room where it's located. However, the only time it was warmer in there was when the thing was raging full on and the rest of the house was still cool. As soon as it started cooling down for the night, the flue draft would suck all the warm air out of the rest of the house making all the other rooms freezing and eventually causing the furnace to run even more than without the fireplace. I think it actually COST me more money to burn the fireplace. I originally put in the insert to use as a supplemental heating source where we could enjoy a fire without losing our shirts and being cold at the same time. It made such a difference that we immediately became 24/7 burners and now enjoy a consistently warm living room that averages around 77 with the rest of the house remaining temperate around 68-70 with small floor fans circulating the air. I also cut my oil bill down to about a fifth of what it was previously so I think my investment has been paid for already including the wood processing toys I accumulated. Frankly, if you generally like it warm, there's nothing like wood heat. We would never turn the thermostat up to 77 for sure and there's something about lounging around in shorts in December with a pile of cats in front of the thing while friends and family living in their homes complain they have to either put on another sweater or crack the thermostat up to 64* because everyone is freezing.


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## pigc (Dec 1, 2014)

Thanks for all the replies thus far.  I've just been reluctant to part with that amount of $$$ and possibly not see the benefits and regretting my decision.  My luck I'd get a job transfer shortly after install!


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## Craig S. (Dec 1, 2014)

Around here, natural gas heating costs about 1/3 of the cost of using home heating oil, so I can see the ROI being a bit longer.   

Figure in the NY area, gas heat costs about $120/month for a similar size house (2000sqft) so divide $4K by the number of heating months, and you wind up with around 33 months. I'd put that at around 6-7 years tops, assuming the wood is free.

We used to heat with oil (we still use it for hot water), but I got a good deal on my stove (from a member here) before last winter, and the install only cost me materials.  We used to get 5 oil deliveries/year, now I get 2.  With 'almost' all the firewood being free last year, I figure I've reached the break even point in just over 1 season.  If I had gas heat, I still would have made the switch, who doesn't like sitting in the den watching football in 76+ degree heat when there's snow on the ground.  No way I'd ever put my thermostat up that high.


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## bens_igloo (Dec 1, 2014)

My wife and I have no regrets over putting in an insert it our masonry chimney. We heat with natural gas which is not too expensive relative to oil, but the insert allows us to keep the home really toasty without worrying about the cost (wood is free for us). Combined with the ambiance, it's been well worth it. Yes there is a learning curve, especially when it comes to how dry your wood has to be. Although my bet is it's going to be a hell of a lot safer than running your open fireplace all night! You should keep that into consideration.

I would have loved to get a freestander, but unfortunately the layout of my home didnt allow it. The insert is in a 9x12 room, that is open to the upstairs and to the rest of the home (1500 square feet + 800 basement). With a freestander the room would have been cramped. The insert heats our entire home on a full load.


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## Andy S. (Dec 1, 2014)

+1 on cutting your gas bill by eliminating the fireplace. If you're able to enjoy your current fireplace while only paying $200/mo in heating costs I think you'd be crazy to change. I did it because I have a heat pump for my 2500 ft2 and I might as well have used balled-up $20's to start my fire if I wanted to use my fireplace. Maybe consider the best of both worlds and put a nice freestanding stove in the basement?


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## NinjaTech (Dec 1, 2014)

+1 on the Insert here. Had a regular fireplace that I had used for years just for the crackling fire, but I never even tried to actually use it for heat. Just wasn't going to happen. Put in a BK Princess insert and have no regrets at all. It will easily go overnight, and keep the house toasty. The only downside to it, is that its catalytic and you don't have the nice fireshow you get with a non-cat or open fireplace. It really is just a hot dark box as quoting another thread. But that is something I was aware of buying it, and when thinking about how long it will burn for I don't miss the pretty fire quite as much.


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## Fod01 (Dec 1, 2014)

Keep in mind the floor plan - open layouts are easier to heat.  My insert heats the livingroom and upstairs bedrooms of our cape, but getting the heat to travel around corners to the rest of the house is sketchy.


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## MetMan (Dec 1, 2014)

My ROI was 3 years but I heat with oil and also had the 30% tax credit going for me. Ultimately it's a lifestyle choice as you will see the more you read on this forum. Being in control of your heat is empowering. I have no regrets.


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## claydogg84 (Dec 1, 2014)

If you're paying $150-$200/month in the worst months I think you would be absolutely crazy to make the switch. I say keep what you have and enjoy the fireplace. The amount of work involved in heating with wood 24/7 is immense. Consider possible chainsaw, splitter, and chiropractor visits as well. Perhaps look for a used insert in the $500-$1000 range - that may lessen the blow. what you're basically considering doing is more along the lines of buying a new toy instead of a good investment.


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## smokedragon (Dec 1, 2014)

Doug Doty said:


> Having the wife be able to back up to the wood or pellet burner and warm her buns nullifies the need for any ROI at my house.


Amen to that!!


I would also like to add that we went from fireplace, to insert, to free standing stove.  In my instance, I would not take the insert OR the fireplace back.  Our stove has a glass, you can see the fire, works for me.


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## pigc (Dec 1, 2014)

Thanks for all of the suggestions, both in favor and against an insert.  It is a very hard decision for me.  I get mesmerized gazing at the dancing flames.

 Claydogg -  I realize the work involved in heating 24/7.  I'm currently doing almost that with the fireplace now.  Cutting wood is my escape from working in a corporate job cooped up in an office all day.  I like your idea of a used insert though.  Craigslist however has some sketchy looking inserts and we both want something flush mount that is very aesthetically pleasing as well.

Fodog -  Not having a very open floor plan worries me.  Our living, dining, and kitchen are open but all of the bedrooms are through a doorway that leads down a hall.  I'm not very optimistic at getting the heat to the bedrooms and bathrooms but guess that's what our second furnace is for, the bedrooms.  At least it's newer and a 90% efficient unit.

Andy S -  I wish I had an option to put a freestanding stove in the basement because I certainly would.  Unfortunately, an insert on the main level of our ranch home is the only option.

Craig S -  It's currently very warm in here and MNF is on and I'm sipping on an imperial stout beer so life is good! 

Branchburner -  The fireplace must help because one furnace does not run when the fire is going.  Thermostat is in same room.  When not burning the damper is closed and mesh and glass doors are closed.  I believe we tested this a few years ago and saw a $75 decrease in gas bill when fireplace was used.

Thanks everyone else for the comments.  I'm leaning about 65% for an insert and 35% against trying to take everything in account.

Currently 18 degrees outside but a very comfortable 76 in the family room!  The open hearth may not be efficient but certainly feels toasty.  Recently installed ceiling fan seems to help too.


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## bens_igloo (Dec 1, 2014)

It is definitely possible to find a used insert in good shape, but it takes a lot of patience.

For example, I purchased mine in barely used condition for 1200$ Canadian. After a single fire I wouldn't have been able to tell the difference between an insert purchased new and the one I obtained. Of course there's also a lot of junk online! My total cost, including installation, was 2200$.


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## pigc (Dec 1, 2014)

bens_igloo said:


> It is definitely possible to find a used insert in good shape, but it takes a lot of patience.
> 
> For example, I purchased mine in barely used condition for 1200$ Canadian. After a single fire I wouldn't have been able to tell the difference between an insert purchased new and the one I obtained. Of course there's also a lot of junk online! My total cost, including installation, was 2200$.



Did you find it on craigslist or ebay?  Any other sites you recommend?  That's a good point.  I've been burning without an insert 7 years now.  What's the rush to get one right now?!  I know the wife would be much happier if I could find a nice one around what you paid!


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## bens_igloo (Dec 1, 2014)

I found it on Kijiji which is more popular than Craigslist around here. I think the important thing is to take your time and be picky. I looked at about 5 or 6 units over the course of about 8 or 9 month until I eventually found one in the condition I wanted. It even came with a box of firebrick so it looked nice and new inside. 

Hope that helps.


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## Hatrackr (Dec 1, 2014)

I was in the same boat we have natural gas and while it will be years before we break even after the insert, splitter, chainsaw ect it is always warmer in the house than if we didn't have it plus I love cutting and splitting!  I can heat our 1900 sq ft colonial pretty good with our kodiak 1700, the bedrooms hang around the mid 60's on the second floor but I like them cooler than the 74 degree main floor anyway. In addition to using less wood and gaining more heat the safety factor was big for us. I never would have run the open fireplace overnight but feel totally safe running the insert 24/7. We have no regrets as we sit in our shorts and t shirts while it's currently 10 outside you still get the view of the fire and get heat long after the flames die out plus there is a certain beauty of watching secondaries dance that an open fireplace just can't match  
Just for reference with the insert and liner it was less than $2400 and we did the install maybe look at some of the less expensive options if your worried about ROI


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## mass_burner (Dec 1, 2014)

I would need to thank the previous owners of our house, they put in an insert years ago. My wife got to see and feel how they worked. So in the open fireplace on the other side of the chimney, we put another in. One of our biggest criteria was appearance, we wanted clean, flush mount and modern, with a huge glass.


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## branchburner (Dec 1, 2014)

pigc said:


> Craigslist however has some sketchy looking inserts



As with anything on CL, time is your friend both when buying or selling. 

If you are in no hurry, you can keep your eye open and make offers. Many people will accept well below asking price for great items when moving, remodeling or upgrading. I have gotten some real deals (a virtually new $700 dishwasher for $30) when patient and selective.

I have also GIVEN people some great deals when I was in a hurry to unload something.


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## brenndatomu (Dec 1, 2014)

pigc said:


> $4k+


Is that number from an actual quote or just ballparkin it? Do you have a model picked out?
Just a lil FYI here, you could buy one of the "economy" models, such as Drolet 1800-i, 'bout $1100 or so at Menards (less on sale) still a pretty quality unit though. That insert and a SS liner for $5-600 or so, DIY install, your in for less than $2k...


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## branchburner (Dec 1, 2014)

Others have noted, ROI is measured in more than dollars. Even if my stove, liner, saw, splitter, etc. were not giving me monetary return, I would still consider them a good purchase. I suppose choosing the wood-burning way of life makes it much more of a pleasure than it would be if it was forced upon me.

I view it the same way as gardening: the degree of enjoyment one gets (or doesn't get) is much more important than the dollar-value of the food grown, assuming one already has a reasonable income and living standard. I got sick of gardening, so I gave it up. Now I bake in the backyard. The ROI, given the time I spend to make a few loaves of sourdough, is WAY negative... that is, if you measure it in the dollar-value of a standard loaf.

Forget about the dollars and cents. I suspect, like many of us, you would end up preferring the EPA stove to the open fireplace. It is hard to explain why it is so satisfying, other than to say you almost feel like you are getting your entire ROI in a single single-digit weekend, when the power is out and there is a blizzard raging outside. Priceless.


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## pigc (Dec 1, 2014)

brenndatomu said:


> Is that number from an actual quote or just ballparkin it? Do you have a model picked out?
> Just a lil FYI here, you could by one of the "economy" models, such as Drolet 1800-i, 'bout $1100 or so at Menards (less on sale) still a pretty quality unit though. That insert and a SS liner for $5-600 or so, DIY install, your in for less than $2k...



Yes, we like the Jotul Rockland 550 ($3429+$490 (liner) + $550 (install) + $275 (tax) = $4744.  Also was looking at the Pacific Energy Neo 2.5 for about $4100 total.  The least expensive one was the Enerzone Destination 2.3 which was approx. $3500 total.  I like the fact that the Jotul can take up to 24" log since I burn 18-20" logs now.

I wish the economy models had the higher end look to them but the ones I've seen do not.  Seems you have to pay for looks, especially the contemporary looking ones that the wife likes as do I.


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## pigc (Dec 2, 2014)

Does anyone have an experience with heat exchangers or these grate wall of fire grates?  Looks like this would help with efficiency but are these just a gimmick?

I found this link today on the site on making an open fireplace more efficient.  https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/upgrading_fireplace


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## NinjaTech (Dec 2, 2014)

pigc said:


> Does anyone have an experience with heat exchangers or these grate wall of fire grates?  Looks like this would help with efficiency but are these just a gimmick?
> 
> I found this link today on the site on making an open fireplace more efficient.  https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/upgrading_fireplace



I think most will agree with this, doing those things will help, but they will never make an open fireplace a good full time (or even part time) heater. I see open fireplaces as much more of a decorative thing. You light them for ambiance, not for heat. Think of it like this, if your fireplace is 20 percent efficient right now, and you go and do every single thing on that list you get it up to 25-30 percent efficient. Yeah, you gained 5-10 percent, but its still not going to be a viable heat source. All you really did was make ita 'less bad' heater.


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## btuser (Dec 2, 2014)

If you've got natural gas even free wood has a long payback. 18" rounds?

I've got an insert with free wood.  If I had natural gas I would have put in a gas fireplace before a wood insert.   For me its about btu/effort.  

I don't regret the wood insert but a lot of people don't count things like their own time when doing a cost analysis.   It would have made more economic sense for me to get a seasonal low-wage job rather than start heating with wood. 

There are other benefits.  I'm guessing the odds of killing myself with a chainsaw are about even with getting shot while working a at a convenience store.  At least this way I get a free chainsaw.


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## edge-of-the-woods (Dec 2, 2014)

We've had an insert for not quite a month yet, and it's a HUGE improvement over our fireplace in terms of heat.  

We went with a Regency CI2600, flush and contemporary look.

If you care about ease of loading your stove, and from the sound of how you load your fireplace, you will...then I would suggest NOT getting a flush insert.  We went with flush for safety reasons and aesthetics, but it's a lot harder to load.  Those dimensions day it will take a 20" log, but they mean ONE 20" log, not all 20" logs..the firebox narrows towards the back, and is only 13" deep if you don't remove the andirons and pack it to the glass.  That means I'm spending more time playing real-life Tetris to pack the firebox full of oddly-sized splits than I ever though I would be.

Also, look around on here for advice on getting a block-off plate installed and insulated liner.  I didn't find out about those until AFTER we had our insert installed.


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## pigc (Dec 2, 2014)

edge-of-the-woods said:


> We've had an insert for not quite a month yet, and it's a HUGE improvement over our fireplace in terms of heat.
> 
> We went with a Regency CI2600, flush and contemporary look.
> 
> ...



I was looking at that model too but they wanted almost 6K all said and done!  I do like the looks of it though.  If we end up going with an insert we want to stay in the 4k range or less.   I noticed the same thing on the Rockland, it tapers down quite a bit in the rear of the box.  I don't think the wife will go with they type that bay out...pretty sure the flush mount is ONLY option.

I'm sure it will be hard for me to get used to burning smaller and not as much wood.  Thanks for the tips, I do plan to install a block-off plate if we decide on the insert.  Do you think an insulated liner would make much of a difference on an interior chimney in middle of the house?  How much more would that cost?  I think my clay tile chimney is 6x9 so the fit will be tight, might even have to ovalize it some to fit.


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## pigc (Dec 2, 2014)

btuser said:


> 18" rounds?



12-14".  My overnighters!


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## bholler (Dec 2, 2014)

pigc said:


> Do you think an insulated liner would make much of a difference on an interior chimney in middle of the house?


Do you have the required 2" of clearance from the surface of the masonry chimney to any combustibles?  If not insulation is required and yes even on an interior chimney it will improve preformance.


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## pigc (Dec 2, 2014)

NinjaTech said:


> I think most will agree with this, doing those things will help, but they will never make an open fireplace a good full time (or even part time) heater. I see open fireplaces as much more of a decorative thing. You light them for ambiance, not for heat. Think of it like this, if your fireplace is 20 percent efficient right now, and you go and do every single thing on that list you get it up to 25-30 percent efficient. Yeah, you gained 5-10 percent, but its still not going to be a viable heat source. All you really did was make ita 'less bad' heater.



Good point!  Why spend $500 or more just to get possibly 5-10% increase.  The insert is sounding more and more the best solution, especially if I want to burn 24/7 and not lose all that heat up the chimney!


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## edge-of-the-woods (Dec 2, 2014)

pigc said:


> I was looking at that model too but they wanted almost 6K all said and done!  I do like the looks of it though.  If we end up going with an insert we want to stay in the 4k range or less.   I noticed the same thing on the Rockland, it tapers down quite a bit in the rear of the box.  I don't think the wife will go with they type that bay out...pretty sure the flush mount is ONLY option.
> 
> I'm sure it will be hard for me to get used to burning smaller and not as much wood.  Thanks for the tips, I do plan to install a block-off plate if we decide on the insert.  Do you think an insulated liner would make much of a difference on an interior chimney in middle of the house?  How much more would that cost?  I think my clay tile chimney is 6x9 so the fit will be tight, might even have to ovalize it some to fit.



Not sure about the cost of anything, especially between CT and NE, but here's the quote for our install.


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## pigc (Dec 2, 2014)

bholler said:


> Do you have the required 2" of clearance from the surface of the masonry chimney to any combustibles?
> 
> I believe I do.  I've been talking to an installer and he did not make any mention of insulated liner.  They were coming out today to take a second look to see if everything would fit.


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## bholler (Dec 2, 2014)

pigc said:


> I believe I do. I've been talking to an installer and he did not make any mention of insulated liner. They were coming out today to take a second look to see if everything would fit.



Also almost all liners i have read the instructions for and absolutely every one i have installed needs to be insulated when used for a wood appliance in order for the ul listing to be valid.  Many installers don't insulate because it takes more time and raises the price which could make them loose the job But in my opinion and according to most liner manufacturers they should all be insulated for use with wood


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## pigc (Dec 2, 2014)

edge-of-the-woods said:


> Not sure about the cost of anything, especially between CT and NE, but here's the quote for our install.
> 
> 
> View attachment 146414



Thanks for sharing.  Here is mine.  The total went on the next page *$5949!  *We proceeded to check out other dealers.


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## branchburner (Dec 2, 2014)

btuser said:


> a lot of people don't count things like their own time when doing a cost analysis.   It would have made more economic sense for me to get a seasonal low-wage job rather than start heating with wood.



If you really like playing with wood, fire and saws then wood heat almost always makes economic sense, because the work is not really work. If you hate it, and prefer working at Walmart as a way to pass the time, it wood heat may not make sense.

I'm still amazed at how many people PAY for the ability to go to a gym and do non-productive work. If you want to get me in a gym, you better be paying me... and more than minimum wage.


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## BrotherBart (Dec 2, 2014)

bholler said:


> in order for the ul listing to be valid.



For zero clearance to combustibles.


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## Huntindog1 (Dec 2, 2014)

Cut the wood and sell it and use the money to pay your natural gas bill.


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## pigc (Dec 2, 2014)

Huntindog1 said:


> Cut the wood and sell it and use the money to pay your natural gas bill.



I have considered that!  I still will always have some type of fire going.  It gets in your blood like many of you know and there is no other heat like it!


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## Ricky8443 (Dec 2, 2014)

NinjaTech said:


> +1 on the Insert here. Had a regular fireplace that I had used for years just for the crackling fire, but I never even tried to actually use it for heat. Just wasn't going to happen. Put in a BK Princess insert and have no regrets at all. It will easily go overnight, and keep the house toasty. The only downside to it, is that its catalytic and you don't have the nice fireshow you get with a non-cat or open fireplace. It really is just a hot dark box as quoting another thread. But that is something I was aware of buying it, and when thinking about how long it will burn for I don't miss the pretty fire quite as much.


I seem to get a light show when the dial is set on anything from noon position to 4:00 position. Do you? Im concerned my insert might be getting too much air?


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## NJ_Burner08002 (Dec 2, 2014)

Hell no my family room is 76.8 degrees and it's 35 out.


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## smokedragon (Dec 8, 2014)

branchburner said:


> Others have noted, ROI is measured in more than dollars.


The other thing about ROI is this.  Are you calculating what it would take to just heat your house, or what it would cost you to get the heat you get from wood??  If I calculated what it cost to heat my home vs what it cost to get it as warm and toasty as my Ideal Steel, those would be vastly different numbers.


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## Ram 1500 with an axe... (Dec 8, 2014)

I used to have an occasional fire with the fireplace, now with the insert I have one every chance I get, for me it's a hobby that I love, I also save money on the oil bill as a perk.....


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## btuser (Dec 9, 2014)

My satisfaction with my insert has gone way up since we chopped a big giant hole in the wall for the kitchen remodel.  before there was a 60"x80" opening (framed for slider) from the kitchen/dining room to the family room. I used to have dueling fans and still it was a trick to get heat distributed.  A 15-20 degree difference between the bedrooms and the family room was about all I could hope for.  Now there's a 12' opening floor-to-ceiling, and with the family room about 74 the upstairs bedrooms are 67-68, no extra fans and the heat spreads quickly unlike before.  This has held true for the few "cold" days/nights we've had so far this year.


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## 2PistolPacker (Dec 9, 2014)

I've had my insert installed for a week now and I have had a fire everyday. Due to low natural gas prices I didn't install the insert to heat my home full time, so ROI doesn't concern me. Will I ever recoup my money, probably not. We both really enjoy sitting in front of a fire, so I bought it and now we are enjoying it. No regrets.


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## edge-of-the-woods (Dec 9, 2014)

Very cool!  


btuser said:


> My satisfaction with my insert has gone way up since we chopped a big giant hole in the wall for the kitchen remodel.  before there was a 60"x80" opening (framed for slider) from the kitchen/dining room to the family room. I used to have dueling fans and still it was a trick to get heat distributed.  A 15-20 degree difference between the bedrooms and the family room was about all I could hope for.  Now there's a 12' opening floor-to-ceiling, and with the family room about 74 the upstairs bedrooms are 67-68, no extra fans and the heat spreads quickly unlike before.  This has held true for the few "cold" days/nights we've had so far this year.



I've been thinking about taking out the transom over our bedroom door, so the heat can spread through more easily.  Put in a hinged window or something.


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## jimdrea (Dec 9, 2014)

slayer7 said:


> Put the insert in during 2009 after the brutal 2008 heating season with sky-high oil prices. We liked burning the fireplace for the ambiance and warmth that it provided for the living room where it's located. However, the only time it was warmer in there was when the thing was raging full on and the rest of the house was still cool. As soon as it started cooling down for the night, the flue draft would suck all the warm air out of the rest of the house making all the other rooms freezing and eventually causing the furnace to run even more than without the fireplace. I think it actually COST me more money to burn the fireplace. I originally put in the insert to use as a supplemental heating source where we could enjoy a fire without losing our shirts and being cold at the same time. It made such a difference that we immediately became 24/7 burners and now enjoy a consistently warm living room that averages around 77 with the rest of the house remaining temperate around 68-70 with small floor fans circulating the air. I also cut my oil bill down to about a fifth of what it was previously so I think my investment has been paid for already including the wood processing toys I accumulated. Frankly, if you generally like it warm, there's nothing like wood heat. We would never turn the thermostat up to 77 for sure and there's something about lounging around in shorts in December with a pile of cats in front of the thing while friends and family living in their homes complain they have to either put on another sweater or crack the thermostat up to 64* because everyone is freezing.


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## jimdrea (Dec 9, 2014)

I love my insert. We have a napoleon 1402 and had it professionally installed for 3,800. dollars. We use to have a weekend fire in our fireplace but in the winter when it burned down all the heat would be sucked out of the house. I have programable thermostats and four zones. Noone is home during the day and we keep the house cool 58 degrees. Yesterday I was home from work at 4pm. By 5:30 I had my 1st floor 1500 sq feet a comfy 72 degrees.  The insert has turned into a hobby for me. I have one kid in college and the other starting next year. I spend alot of my free time finding wood, splitting and stacking and drying it. I is a real pleasure to burn wood you know you labored on.   I have a Honda Ridgeline and if there is a tree company working in my town I aske if I can take the rounds. All of my wood has been free like this.


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## Timberwolf530 (Dec 9, 2014)

pigc said:


> Hello everyone!
> 
> I've been spending numerous hours on this site the last several weeks and really have learned a lot.  I'm about to pull the trigger on a wood insert.  I've been burning in an open fireplace that has mesh and glass doors the past seven years.  I realize that I am losing a great deal of heat up the chimney but the radiant heat is wonderful in the family room and kitchen.
> 
> ...



First, you don't have to spend $4k to get a nice setup.  You can, as people suggested find a nice used one, and install it yourself for around $1000, if you want an older stove.  Since you have an unlimited supply of wood, the fact that the older units are very hungry shouldn't matter as much to you.  Plus, it will still use alot less than your open fireplace, and heat much better.  In my case, I bought an old Fisher for $350, an insulated stainless flue for around $250, and installed it myself.  It only took a couple hours, and wasn't what I would consider a difficult project.  I love my old insert, but I don't have an unlimited supply of wood, so I am thinking about buying a more efficient stove for next year.  Well, that and my wife wants glass so she can see the flames.  OK, I'd like it too.

Second, it's not all about ROI.  When your house is heated with a wood stove, it's different than with a regular furnace.  The best way I can describe it is that it's a more penetrating heat.  Everything seems warmer, the furniture, the walls, the floors.  I just got my insert last winter, and the difference we feel would be worth it even if we saved nothing.  As said before, it's nice to sit back in shorts and a t shirt, and kick up your bare feet when it's freezing outside.  We always kept our thermostat at 67 before , now our house is never under 70. I originally bought the insert as a supplemental heat source for really cold days, but we like it so much that I haven't had my furnace on more than a couple times so far this season.

IMO, you're already doing the work, you may as well reap the benefits of having a wood stove.  I say go for it.


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## pigc (Dec 9, 2014)

Timberwolf530 said:


> First, you don't have to spend $4k to get a nice setup.  You can, as people suggested find a nice used one, and install it yourself for around $1000, if you want an older stove.  Since you have an unlimited supply of wood, the fact that the older units are very hungry shouldn't matter as much to you.  Plus, it will still use alot less than your open fireplace, and heat much better.  In my case, I bought an old Fisher for $350, an insulated stainless flue for around $250, and installed it myself.  It only took a couple hours, and wasn't what I would consider a difficult project.  I love my old insert, but I don't have an unlimited supply of wood, so I am thinking about buying a more efficient stove for next year.  Well, that and my wife wants glass so she can see the flames.  OK, I'd like it too.
> 
> Second, it's not all about ROI.  When your house is heated with a wood stove, it's different than with a regular furnace.  The best way I can describe it is that it's a more penetrating heat.  Everything seems warmer, the furniture, the walls, the floors.  I just got my insert last winter, and the difference we feel would be worth it even if we saved nothing.  As said before, it's nice to sit back in shorts and a t shirt, and kick up your bare feet when it's freezing outside.  We always kept our thermostat at 67 before , now our house is never under 70. I originally bought the insert as a supplemental heat source for really cold days, but we like it so much that I haven't had my furnace on more than a couple times so far this season.
> 
> IMO, you're already doing the work, you may as well reap the benefits of having a wood stove.  I say go for it.



Great points!  I have taken the first step and ordered a SS liner kit.  Should arrive by the weekend.  Unfortunately the flush insert we like the most is the Jotul Rockland C550 and they sure don't give those away! Although I've been a bit hesitant on some of the problems I've read about.  I don't think I'll miss the open, crackling flames as much as I originally thought and it will be much safer for overnight burns.  Not much luck on used around here.  Thanks for the nudge though, I'm about to take the leap!


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## slayer7 (Dec 9, 2014)

I, too, thought I would miss the "open, crackling flames", which also brought flying embers, occasional belches of smoke and lots of drafts but the truth is that with the glass doors on these stoves, you hardly notice the difference besides the added raging amount of heat coming from it. I can still hear the wood crackling and popping while enjoying the flame show and be toasty warm too. Of course, you'll have a little trouble roasting marshmallows now...


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## jeffesonm (Dec 9, 2014)

The Osburn Matrix insert is a great stove, has a contemporary look and can be had for nearly a thousand less than that Jotul.


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## bboulier (Dec 9, 2014)

I have rally enjoyed my Rockwell 550c insert.  I don't rely on it solely for heat since I have young grandchildren who come over often.  They are too young to be exposed to a hot stove, but we use it a lot during the winter when the are not around.  We live in a split level. The insert will heat the main and upper floors.  When stuffed full, it will provide sufficient heat to get us through the night.


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## pigc (Dec 10, 2014)

jeffesonm said:


> The Osburn Matrix insert is a great stove, has a contemporary look and can be had for nearly a thousand less than that Jotul.



That one has been on my radar as well.  Nice looking unit.  Unfortunately, no dealers nearby.  One thing I like about the Rockland is that everything is included in the price. (cast iron surround, blower, etc.)  I've noticed a lot of the others advertise a price just for the unit but after you add the surround, blower it's another several hundred dollars.  Regency CI2600 comes to mind.  It started out $400 less than Rockland but ended up being almost $500 more after all the options.  Felt like I was at a car dealership lured in by the "base" price!



bboulier said:


> I have rally enjoyed my Rockwell 550c insert. I don't rely on it solely for heat since I have young grandchildren who come over often. They are too young to be exposed to a hot stove, but we use it a lot during the winter when the are not around. We live in a split level. The insert will heat the main and upper floors. When stuffed full, it will provide sufficient heat to get us through the night.



Thanks for your input.  The Rockland is still the top contender.  Jotul also has a $200 savings coupon through the end of December which is nice.  One of my concerns is keeping the kids away from the insert.  It will be in the family room where we spend 90% of our time.


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## prezes13 (Dec 10, 2014)

Don't worry about the kids too much.  My daughter was one year old when I put my insert in.  She never burn herself.  She knows better not too touch it and belive me she cannot sit still for five seconds.  Best time is when the stove is running nice and hot and after her bath she comes and we sit in front of it enjoying the nice radiant heat coming of the glass.


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## Fod01 (Dec 10, 2014)

pigc said:


> One of my concerns is keeping the kids away from the insert.  It will be in the family room where we spend 90% of our time.



My kids were a bit older when we got ours (12, 16) so no burns from touching the stove, but my daughter came in from the cold and sat in front of it with her heavy sweatshirt on.  It was smoking before she ever felt warm.

You can always get a freestanding fireplace screen for piece of mind.  Accidents do happen with little ones.


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## mass_burner (Dec 10, 2014)

prezes13 said:


> Don't worry about the kids too much.  My daughter was one year old when I put my insert in.  She never burn herself.  She knows better not too touch it and belive me she cannot sit still for five seconds.  Best time is when the stove is running nice and hot and after her bath she comes and we sit in front of it enjoying the nice radiant heat coming of the glass.


My daughter was 4 when we started burning with the inserts, before that we had open fires in the fireplace. If you are careful, they pickup on it.


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## ekg0477 (Dec 11, 2014)

pigc said:


> That one has been on my radar as well.  Nice looking unit.  Unfortunately, no dealers nearby.  One thing I like about the Rockland is that everything is included in the price. (cast iron surround, blower, etc.)  I've noticed a lot of the others advertise a price just for the unit but after you add the surround, blower it's another several hundred dollars.  Regency CI2600 comes to mind.  It started out $400 less than Rockland but ended up being almost $500 more after all the options.  Felt like I was at a car dealership lured in by the "base" price!
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for your input.  The Rockland is still the top contender.  Jotul also has a $200 savings coupon through the end of December which is nice.  One of my concerns is keeping the kids away from the insert.  It will be in the family room where we spend 90% of our time.



Where did you see this $200 coupon?


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## ADK_XJ (Dec 11, 2014)

Being relatively new to the game, I'd say my two biggest pro's to switching to an insert from an open fireplace are 1) the long-term value of the heat from a modern insert 2) no more drafty living room or old fire stench when it's been raining / snowing.

Our brick hearth wasn't long enough to accommodate a free standing stove and the wife vetoed extending it (hey, it's a democracy) so we went with the best fit for the space in a Regency i2400. However, there is that part of me that wishes I had pushed harder for a true stove but aesthetically speaking the insert is a perfect fit.


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## pigc (Dec 11, 2014)

ekg0477 said:


> Where did you see this $200 coupon?



jotul's website.


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## ekg0477 (Dec 12, 2014)

pigc said:


> jotul's website.



Thanks!

I guess I was a couple days (early) for this. My insert was installed on 11/28 coupon good for 12/4 and after. That really stings!


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## lml999 (Dec 12, 2014)

pigc said:


> Does anyone who has burned an open fireplace previously regret their decision on an insert?



Yes. I wish I had gone with a Hearthstone stove instead of an insert. 

I do love my insert, and it works well...but next time I'm going freestanding.

Fortunately, I have a finished basement with a second fireplace.


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## Schmev (Dec 12, 2014)

ADK_XJ said:


> Being relatively new to the game, I'd say my two biggest pro's to switching to an insert from an open fireplace are 1) the long-term value of the heat from a modern insert* 2) no more drafty living room or old fire stench when it's been raining / snowing.*
> 
> Our brick hearth wasn't long enough to accommodate a free standing stove and the wife vetoed extending it (hey, it's a democracy) so we went with the best fit for the space in a Regency i2400. However, there is that part of me that wishes I had pushed harder for a true stove but aesthetically speaking the insert is a perfect fit.



That is what I cant wait for.  Our famly room smells like a campfire.  My wife and I love using the open fireplace but it's inefficiency and smell make it unbearable.  The room we spend the most time in as a family is easily the coldest in the house.  I cant wait to get ours installed.


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## ekg0477 (Dec 12, 2014)




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## EJL923 (Dec 12, 2014)

I thought last i looked around here natural gas was as cheap or close to the cost of heating with wood.  I have oil so an insert has been a godsend.  If money was no object an insert still gives ambience more efficiently, but if this isnt a cost saving move and you dont want to spend the 4k, dont do it.


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## pigc (Dec 15, 2014)

Thanks everyone for their input.  This has truly been a learning experience.  We pulled the trigger on the Jotul C 550 Rockland CF.  Ordered the flex-king pro SS liner with smooth interior wall (cheaper and better quality than what the dealer was offering).  Installed last weekend with help of my brother, nephew and a couple friends.  After the break-in fires actually got a 10 hour burn overnight with a few coals this morning to get things started again.  I never realized I was burning so much wood in the open fireplace compared to this 550 lb beast!  Wife just called and mentioned how comfortable it was in the house.

For those contemplating a self install...it's not that bad if you have good help.  Just be sure to repay with pizza and beverages when you're all done!

Here are a few pics of the install.  Happy burning everyone!  Hopefully no regrets! 


Wife did not want power cord exposed so ran flush mount outlet in rear of firebox in the old ash clean out hole.



Insulating the firebox with Roxul fire resistant insulation.



My brother's 24 gauge metal block-off plate with insulation on top side.  Luckily he's a heating and air guy that fabricated this in about 20 mins!



Making my nephew do the dirty work work while my brother and I look on. 



Getting things lined up for final install and surround.



Final install after first break-in fire minus bottom surround.  Have to get tiles cut for it to attach.


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## lml999 (Dec 15, 2014)

Beautiful installation.

One comment...I'm not sure you want that electrical outlet in the firebox... See this *thread*.


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## jatoxico (Dec 15, 2014)

pigc said:


> I have considered that!  I still will always have some type of fire going.  It gets in your blood like many of you know and there is no other heat like it!



This is exactly why it's worth it regardless of ROI. I heat for comfort and I enjoy it. I'll get paid back, I may have already, not counting.  Very nice install, well done. Be shocked if you have any regrets.

*Calculating ROI is tricky IMO. I never tried to heat my house to 74-78 degrees with oil for a season .


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## pigc (Dec 16, 2014)

lml999 said:


> Beautiful installation.
> 
> One comment...I'm not sure you want that electrical outlet in the firebox... See this *thread*.



Thank you and thanks for the heads up.


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## Timberwolf530 (Dec 16, 2014)

Very Nice  Not much room to spare, so good job maximizing your stove size.  IMO, the only regret you will have is that you didn't do it sooner.  ENJOY!


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## mstoelton (Dec 16, 2014)

mellow said:


> Even with free wood you are looking at 15 year ROI?



I've calculated the ROI for my two Clydesdale inserts that I installed in 2013.
If I assume the wood is free (I cut and split it), the ROI is less than 18 months of heating with natural gas.   

Burning the inserts has resulted in a net reduction in my gas bill of ~$350 per month during the heating season.


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## lml999 (Dec 16, 2014)

pigc said:


> Thank you and thanks for the heads up.



Glad I could contribute. Usually *I'm* the newbie.


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## Matt93eg (Dec 16, 2014)

My Wife and I didn't spend near that kind of money on our insert combined with the liner kit but also got a cheaper stove.  Since recently installing new attic insulation we are heating our 1,500 Sq/ft home with our wood stove insert, I don't think you will see an open fireplace do that.  In my opinion with all the new stoves having glass doors with an air wash its a no brainer to go with an insert.  You still get the view of the fire, can still hear the wood pop and crack and at the same time have added an appliance that will actually heat and not suck all the warm air out of the house.


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## Hogwildz (Dec 16, 2014)

Regret? NO


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## hamsey (Dec 17, 2014)

Wish I did it sooner


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## Matt93eg (Dec 17, 2014)

I should have read all the pages before I posted above to see you had put the stove in.  Looks very nice!  Nice job on the install.


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## pigc (Dec 17, 2014)

Matt93eg said:


> I should have read all the pages before I posted above to see you had put the stove in.  Looks very nice!  Nice job on the install.



No prob.  Thanks!  The heat now is so much more balanced throughout the house.  My wife and I are both amazed how much longer a single piece of wood lasts!  Now I'm gonna have to find other excuses to get out of the house on the weekend other than to cut wood!!


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## Matt93eg (Dec 17, 2014)

pigc said:


> No prob.  Thanks!  The heat now is so much more balanced throughout the house.  My wife and I are both amazed how much longer a single piece of wood lasts!  Now I'm gonna have to find other excuses to get out of the house on the weekend other than to cut wood!!


 
Yeah its pretty awesome to get a load of wood up and going to where you can close the primary air all the way, so you basically slow the burn of the wood down but ignite the secondaries to burn the wood gas off.  So basically its like slowing the burn of the wood down while creating more heat and efficiency at the same time.  Impossible with an open fireplace.

Years ago I worked for a Chimney company, we did everything from cleanings to re-lines.  Countless times we would go in to do a reline whether it be a Stainless steel reline or a cast in place and the customers would have us REMOVE the wood stove so they could go back to an open fireplace.  That always left me scratching my head.  We had a area in our warehouse that was nothing but wood stoves stacked up from where we had removed them from various homes.


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## pigc (Dec 17, 2014)

Matt93eg said:


> REMOVE the wood stove so they could go back to an open fireplace



That is crazy!  They must not have been using the stove consistently for heat.  I bet, like most people, they just wanted an occasional fire for the ambience.  I guess if you don't know what you're missing it's hard to realize the lack of efficiency of an open fireplace.  I just wish I would have found this site earlier like many have stated!


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## Matt93eg (Dec 17, 2014)

pigc said:


> That is crazy!  They must not have been using the stove consistently for heat.  I bet, like most people, they just wanted an occasional fire for the ambience.  I guess if you don't know what you're missing it's hard to realize the lack of efficiency of an open fireplace.  I just wish I would have found this site earlier like many have stated!


 
Your probably right, they figured they would rather have the open FP just to burn now and then and sit by the fire.  I don't think a lot of those customers understood the chimney system.  I used to show up at a lot of house to sweep out the chimney, look up into the firebox with my light and the throat damper would be wide open.  A lot of times this would be in the summer so a fire hadn't been burned in quite sometime, I guess they didn't know that even when its not in use it was drawing there air conditioned air right up to the sky. 

My Brother has a Direct Vent Gas Log insert installed in his masonry fireplace.  It was in there when he and his Wife bought there house.  He had never used it so I went by a few weeks ago and showed him how to use it and all.  It puts out decent heat but is burning gas.  I told him when he's ready to put a wood insert and SS liner in there to let me know


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## F4jock (Dec 17, 2014)

pigc said:


> That is crazy!  They must not have been using the stove consistently for heat.  I bet, like most people, they just wanted an occasional fire for the ambience.  I guess if you don't know what you're missing it's hard to realize the lack of efficiency of an open fireplace.  I just wish I would have found this site earlier like many have stated!


Curious. How is your ambience quotient vs the open hearth?


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## pigc (Dec 17, 2014)

F4jock said:


> Curious. How is your ambience quotient vs the open hearth?



Seeing secondary combustion and getting so much more heat out of your wood is awesome!  However, I think that many people (myself included before research) are used to old time open fires (indoor or outdoor) that were handed down from generations to generations.  I can definitely understand that people would want to get rid of an older stove like Matt93eg states (especially if it's an eye sore) and go back to the fireplace. As they say "Ignorance is bliss."

Thankfully many of the new EPA stoves/inserts have really stepped up their game for those wanting a more contemporary look as well as heat.


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## Matt93eg (Dec 17, 2014)

pigc said:


> Seeing secondary combustion and getting so much more heat out of your wood is awesome!  However, I think that many people (myself included before research) are used to old time open fires (indoor or outdoor) that were handed down from generations to generations.  I can definitely understand that people would want to get rid of an older stove like Matt93eg states (especially if it's an eye sore) and go back to the fireplace. As they say "Ignorance is bliss."
> 
> Thankfully many of the new EPA stoves/inserts have really stepped up their game for those wanting a more contemporary look as well as heat.


 
That's true.  And the air wash keeps the glass clean(for the most part) so your viewing area stays nice.  The older stoves that did have glass doors were not known for the glass staying clean from what I have seen.  My uncle has an old non-epa stove with a glass door but its always black and cruddy.


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