# Question on crumbling refractory cement on a Dutchwest 2479



## LarryD (Oct 28, 2007)

I was just cleaning the interior of my stove, (I know I should have cleaned it this spring) and was vacumning out the space to the rear of the refractory "ever burn system".  There was a lot of soot and ash so I figured the best way to get it out was to use my shop vac.  I noticed one corner was crumbling and was sort of inspecting the balance and my thumb went right through it.  The stove is two years old we burn 24/7.  The stove is in the basement of a 1,200 sqft cape, with 22' of SS pipe out through the cellar wall and straight up.  The basement is uninsulated, to keep the house comfortable (and not burn oil!) we wind up runnig the stove pretty hot.  The stove top temps average 550F, and occasionally to 700F.  When the stove gets to 700F it is "shut" down and quickly retreats to the 500F range.  Any thoughts as to how what I thought would be a pretty durable part of the stove is failing?  I imagine it is from "overfiring".  We thought we were firing the stove correctly.  The manual leaves a lot to be desired.  I've learned more about the stove on this website than from the supplied manual.  Back to the questions.  Is it fixable?  Is it worth it?  I would call the dealer, unfortunately they (I've learned since) are clueless.  I won't go back.

Any help would be appreciated.  

Larry D


----------



## PA. Woodsman (Oct 28, 2007)

Is it something that you can repatch with pre-mixed refractory cement? I just did that yesterday on the "floor" of my 14-year-old Dovre Aurora, and it was very easy to work with Rutland's pre-mixed cement. I'm certainly no expert, and others here will help you out, but the temps. that you stated don't seem out of reality. What type of stove is it? I'm sure that it's fixable-good luck.


----------



## LarryD (Oct 28, 2007)

Patching it.  I never thought of that.  The rub is that the hole is the top of a "box".  I think my preference would be to replace the part if at all possible.  The stove is a Dutchwest large non cat.  Thanks for your responce

Larry D


----------



## PA. Woodsman (Oct 28, 2007)

LarryD said:
			
		

> Patching it.  I never thought of that.  The rub is that the hole is the top of a "box".  I think my preference would be to replace the part if at all possible.  The stove is a Dutchwest large non cat.  Thanks for your responce
> 
> Larry D



Good luck with your problem-like I said I'm sure that someone who has the proper experience with this will be along to help you out soon!


----------



## BrotherBart (Oct 28, 2007)

I can't lend anything but moral support but I sure can't see an occasional trip up to 700 as over-firing that stove. The temp inside that ever-burn chamber should be kicking over 1,000 after ever-burn kicks in. And after only two-years it darn sure shouldn't be crumbling.

Don't go patching on that thing and killing any hope of warranty repairs. Parts are not going to be cheap.

Edit: I just looked at the warranty for that stove. The only thing that precludes lifetime warranty on the refractory in the Ever-Burn unit is pounding it with wood by overloading the stove. VC owes you a repair.


----------



## webbie (Oct 29, 2007)

Yeah, in general that soft stuff does not want to be patched - not like regular firebrick......so unless VC themselves have a patching compound....well, that's what warranties are for, start with your dealer and see what happens.


----------



## Chrisg (Oct 29, 2007)

I 'am in the same boat with same stove and it is basically falling apart.Your original post sums up our specs and age of stove.Good luck getting warrantied you better have a good relationship with dealer cause that's who provides warranty.
If I was you I would also look inside the stove with a flashlight at the area around the damper for cracks out of the corners.This peice is called the Inner top and I will be getting my third one replaced soon after fighting tooth and nail with dealer and multiple calls to vc support.
All I keep hearing is overfired (I think that is just a cop out on their part) funny how even after they fixed it at end of last feb it didn't even last the rest of season without cracking.Yes I do have a temp gauge and yes I do watch it closely.
Very disappointed with this stove's performance.We  had a VC stove in our last house that was a 1977 model Vigalant and it never missed a beat.Kinda wish I still had that "old club" cause it worked so good.
Good luck I would be interested to hear how you make out.


----------



## webbie (Oct 29, 2007)

It is extremely hard for a maker today to claim overfiring for this reasons - input air controls have been turned WAY down so as to allow stoves to pass the safety testing (and also maybe help with the EPA testing), which makes overfiring that much less likely. Certainly it is possible - and I have had customers burn particle board and have 40 foot chimneys, but in the average case you should simply be able to use your stove and not worry about it for many years up the road - and, those who use a little harder should expect at least parts replacement during the warranty period. 

Keep in mind that the stove is doing exactly what it was designed to do - burn the gases and wood HOT. It is an engineered product, and also VC has been working with this particular combustion system since 1988 (Acclaim). It is a very effective system, but being so effective it causes high temps, which then ......obviously can cause problems.

This really soft refractory is probably similar to the space shuttle stuff - and to the stuff used in the combustion chambers of some oil burners. But one thing it does not like is physical assaults (touching).....

Unfortunately, stoves do not go though destructive testing....like furniture, etc.....in other words, most stove manufacturers have no way (other than experience) of knowing how long stuff might really last in the field. 

Now that would be a fun job......destroying stoves with excess fire! But I'd have to get my stoves free.......as I always told my customers, I could destroy just about any stove in a few weeks (I know how to do it).


----------



## begreen (Oct 29, 2007)

Thanks for the post Craig. I find that amazing. One would expect that any manufacturer of a product in which safety is so critical would do limits testing as standard procedure. Can you imagine what flying or driving would be like without limit testing the product?


----------



## Chrisg (Oct 29, 2007)

Would you say 4.5 to 5.5 cord of wood is a lot of wood to burn in this stove thru a season? The reason I ask is because when the dealer tech came out the first time I told him that amount he literally gasped and said that was a lot of wood for this stove in one season.I don't think it is as a matter of fact I think that is a pretty realistic amount given the claimed square footage of stove and  we run it 24/7 when it's time to.


----------



## begreen (Oct 29, 2007)

Maybe the guy just graduated from tech school. For nothern NE 4-5 cords sounds pretty normal, especially in an older home being heated 24/7 with wood. He needs to take out his btu calculator.


----------



## webbie (Oct 29, 2007)

Chrisg said:
			
		

> Would you say 4.5 to 5.5 cord of wood is a lot of wood to burn in this stove thru a season? The reason I ask is because when the dealer tech came out the first time I told him that amount he literally gasped and said that was a lot of wood for this stove in one season.I don't think it is as a matter of fact I think that is a pretty realistic amount given the claimed square footage of stove and  we run it 24/7 when it's time to.



The stove is advertised as a "large" and is the biggest model in that series. As such, it should be capable of being used 24/7. No doubt you are actually "using" the stove, and MOST customers do not do this, but I think we all can agree that it would be nice if stoves were built to actually use!

An industry secret (no more) is that as a dealer...we LOVED the fact that a lot of our customers burned 1-2 cords of wood a year - that much less work (and service, warranty) for us. But that was in Southern NJ. It is implied that when a stove company in Vermont makes stoves, that they are designed for the hard winters. 

BG, it says right in that Omni report about how poorly some stoves did in the field - it says no destructive testing is done on stoves, and there is no impetus for manufacturers to spend the money to do so. In other words, the "free market" (we always come back to that one), says "If you sell 20,000 stoves and only 3,000 people use them heavily, and only 500 need warranty work, then you (as a maker) can afford it". 

The free market does not say "build that stoves as if 100% of the users were going to burn it hot! 

You are 100% correct about cars, etc....... just listened to a podcast from the dude who started Tesla motors, and this 100K car has to go through ALL the destructive testing. One test involves driving a heavy truck into the rear of the stopped car at 50 MPH.

Early Vermont Castings, Jotuls, Uplands, etc were built of 100% cast iron and with no "afterburners" like today, so they did not have the higher temps to deal with.

Different companies may have various modus operandi. We don't know the inside situation at VC (nor anywhere else)....


----------



## jjbaer (Oct 29, 2007)

LarryD said:
			
		

> I was just cleaning the interior of my stove, (I know I should have cleaned it this spring) and was vacumning out the space to the rear of the refractory "ever burn system". There was a lot of soot and ash so I figured the best way to get it out was to use my shop vac. I noticed one corner was crumbling and was sort of inspecting the balance and my thumb went right through it. The stove is two years old we burn 24/7. The stove is in the basement of a 1,200 sqft cape, with 22' of SS pipe out through the cellar wall and straight up. The basement is uninsulated, to keep the house comfortable (and not burn oil!) we wind up runnig the stove pretty hot. The stove top temps average 550F, and occasionally to 700F. When the stove gets to 700F it is "shut" down and quickly retreats to the 500F range. Any thoughts as to how what I thought would be a pretty durable part of the stove is failing? I imagine it is from "overfiring". We thought we were firing the stove correctly. The manual leaves a lot to be desired. I've learned more about the stove on this website than from the supplied manual. Back to the questions. Is it fixable? Is it worth it? I would call the dealer, unfortunately they (I've learned since) are clueless. I won't go back.
> 
> Any help would be appreciated.
> 
> Larry D



Can't provide any, other than what has already been said except for this: one-piece molded refractory packages are, in my opinion, a disaster waiting to happen. I know they did it that way to get higher temperatures but there's a LOT of good to be said about having a stove with replaceable firebrick in it instead............cheap and easy for the user to replace....


----------



## Chrisg (Oct 29, 2007)

Thanks for the answers and support for what I have thought right along about the situation with this product.
As far as the inner workings of VC tech/customer support in my opinion it is nonexistent and seems to me the "sale has been made so what do we care" mentality is running rampent.Sorry to be so harsh but just can't seem to come to any other conclusion based on the after the sale experiences I have had with this stove. The dealer has washed his hands of the problem and could care less, so basically there goes the warranty.
This next replacement part is coming directly from VC,that I have to replace myself, after I made a connection to the DSM via another very helpful dealer(for real they were).It would be nice if he would contact me personally so I could plead my case but that hasn't happened.Seems like this will be the last bit of help I get from them.To bad it's a small world up here and word of mouth goes along way.


----------



## LarryD (Oct 29, 2007)

The more I read the more I get depressed.  We live in central Connecticut and we have burned about 4-5 cords per year.  My wife is home withour two kids and loads it during the day.  I give her a lot of credit, I didn't think she would.
The dealer we bought the stove from is not very customer service orientated.  In fact that would be an understatement.  I am going to pay them a visit tommorow.  My hopes of getting it warrantied are not high.  Does anyone know the cost of what I am describing and what is involved in fixing it.  Will the stove be the same?  My guess is it will happen again.  This is not cool to have this happen at the end of October.  Any recomendations on a replacement stove in the same size range?

Thanks for the reply's they have been a help.   Though it is disturbing to think other people are going through the same thing.

Larry D


----------



## webbie (Oct 29, 2007)

VC originally set the highest standards for customer service - they had to because they started out selling direct. Even when we were dealers (for the first 10 years or so), they were probably the best of our vendors...all in all, about helping. Every dealer had a rep at the factory who he/she was personally familiar with - I think I can still name mine! But when they were taken over by CFM (mid-90's?), the rep pretty much disappeared because the company told him to open new accounts and basically forget about old ones (they would buy anyway, was the reasoning). These days I think they sell through another level - distributors - so it can be even tougher to get someone who really cares. 

I won't say that is much different from other stove companies......especially in season. BUT, the dealer is the one who often makes the difference....any decent dealer (back me up, dealers) knows how to "work" the system to get things done. In a case like yours....if your dealer or VC or both figured that you are not going to be satisfied (the stove cannot hold up to your use), the dealer should...for instance, just take the stove back in trade for another unit which he knows will hold up. Then, he should make a deal with VC....for instance, they give him the parts and a couple hundred dollar credit, and he fixes up and sells the unit used. I'm just throwing that out there as a scenario which some dealers could finagle. 

I guess what annoys me is what the heck you are going to do - or supposed to do. Are you going to have to buy one or more of these packages per year? 

Well, as you know, the customer has many other ways of getting satisfaction, both through the consumer agencies and the legal system. From afar we cannot make a judgment as to whether your stove has been over-fired, but it certainly sounds like you keep an eye on things. You just happen to live where it is actually cold.

Keep us informed as the season progresses  - maybe they improved the refractory, etc.


----------



## webbie (Oct 29, 2007)

Larry and Chris - we actually have folks from VC who read the forum, but they have not (to my knowledge) posted here - but one of our members who is a building official has run "interference" for some other Forum members who had (smaller) problems with some VC products. Although I hate to push you in his direction without his OK, try a PM to Elk - that is my short name for him - you will see his posts and user name...something like Elkimmeg.

We also may have dealers here who sell VC, and perhaps they will give some insight into those models.


----------



## Chrisg (Oct 29, 2007)

Again LarryD your last post sums up my thoughts ie. buy something else or just run it.
When the inner top pc cracked there would be a puff of smoke from the front top where the blower blows the heated air out from around the stove I would definitely check this area as I said before.The small puff turned into quite a bit over time.
I also wanted to clarify that I am in a small business environment where I am employed and when people call with problems we run for them, adjust the schedule's, fit them in, make it happen and it really burns me when I don't get the same response from a small business that I purchased from.I waited almost 6 months before this dealer fixed the issue the first time last winter that was after constantly calling trying to find out what was going on.He said he was waiting on the parts from VC CFM.I even dropped by his shop 3 or 4 times and he had a stove right on the showroom floor that I wondered to myself why doesn't he just take the part out of this one and fix me up. 
Thanks for the offer Admin. I am to the piont where I am just really sick of dealing with it, ya know I could have just bought a stove out of the trading post(local for sale or trade paper) and been just as well off I still might just do that as it will probably be cheaper than buying the parts to fix it like it should be pretty sad. But hindsight is always 20/20.


----------



## elkimmeg (Oct 30, 2007)

Craig says I can't help you on the forum or be guilty of pimping for said company But I willing to bet one phone call and things would be moving in the direction of getting resolved

 First of all that soft refractory package Craig is mentioning is not the problem it is protected what I think is the issue is the EVerburn cast refractory cement called the Shoe which can be damaged by dropping large splits on it. Also  I believe is covered by warranty which you dealer should be handling.   

 Can you both post pictures of the damaged part so all can view just what part we are talking about.

I like to help but I would be pimping Right Craig?


----------



## LarryD (Oct 30, 2007)

Chris,  I am in the same boat.  I manage an office for a large tree care company.  We are in the service business.  This makes me a demanding (realistic) consumer.  If I ever ran my business this way, I would be homeless.  

I will take some pictures tomorrow and post here.

Have a great night.  I don't know what to do without baseball on TV and no woodstove to "fiddle" with.

Larry D


----------



## LarryD (Oct 30, 2007)

I just stopped by my dealer.  What a difference 2 years makes.  I told the same sales person that I bought the stove from my situation.  He basically re-iterated what has been discussed here about the actual use stove see.  He also claimed that while this isn't a everyday occurence, that it is not unheard of.  He said that the particular part "is" very delicate and will crumble.  He called CFM and ordered the part under warrantee and I should have it this Friday.  I'm amazed.  I didn't expect this.

I will still post pictures of damage tonight or tommorow.

I am leaning towards up grading to a "better" stove.  I don't want to go through this again.  I'm thinking about a Quadra Fire Isle Royale.

Thats all for now.

Larry D


----------



## webbie (Oct 30, 2007)

Wow, what a difference a sales person makes!


----------



## elkimmeg (Oct 30, 2007)

For those that are having dealer response problems then why not call the   Customer care rep 

Consumer Call Centre
410 Admiral Blvd.
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
L5T 2N6
*Telephone: 1-800-668-5323*
Facsimile: 1-877-565-2929


----------



## Chrisg (Oct 30, 2007)

Been there done that a couple times.They say those model stoves warranty goes thru dealer and they do not want to deal with retail sale warranty issues directly and I could get no farther than joe phone answerer at CFM with his rehearsed answers.So I say ok can I go thru another dealer, sure they say and give me phone no of another. Call different dealer blah blah from him never calls back.Call different dealer they did not want to get involved but she did manage to contact DSM for me and thru him I am suppose to be receiving a new pc however I think there are other issues with this stove that need to be addressed and another replacement part is nothing more than a temporary fix. 
Oh and I looked a little closer at it last nite and I am pretty sure the same shoe pc is shot that Larry talked about.
I wish the DSM would contact me personally so I could try and plead my case he apparently has my info according to the dealer that helped me out.


----------



## elkimmeg (Oct 30, 2007)

The  problem extends way beyond dutchwest. The same technology is used By Harman and Travis  industries. If there is a design problem with the horizontal  fire dome technology,
 then it needs to be addressed and fixed. It is showing up with this manufacturer because one they were first to market with it and they have a vollume and multi model stoves using it
 where the others are only employing it in one model and   two or more years later.  As explained to me that shoe is supposed to be almost indestructible.  I'm sure the people I know at that manufacturer, would love to examine the failed part to see why it failed. I have seen actual testing in their labs of design corrections.


----------



## Chrisg (Oct 30, 2007)

Any other suggestions about what I can do to try and remedy these issues.Because like I said in earlier posts original dealer is probably out of the equation and apparently no other dealers will help.
Are you saying design corrections to this particular part or just in general?
How about other stove options that don't have all the ceramic or what ever type of material the refractory is made of that are large and cast iron.Ya know good old fashioned cast, durable, heats real good, burns long etc. etc. without spending an arm and a leg as I already have a substantial amount invested in this one.I know it's alot to ask but you never know.
By the way I have not been a member here long but in that short time the activity here is unreal.This topic was back two or three pages from yesterday this morning.
Thanks Chris


----------



## webbie (Oct 30, 2007)

The truth of the matter is, Chris, that we don't know about these new "everburn" designs since most have not yet been put through the acid test out in public. Chances are that the Harman, Travis and other implementations use different designs - this should be obvious from a close look at the particular stoves. And VC does have a lot of experience with this stuff and good engineers, so I do scratch my head sometimes as to why it is not more "perfected" after 20 years. It's a matter, as I've said before, of a combustion system doing TOO GOOD of a job. Fine in a boiler, where the unit can take anything you throw at it (surrounded by water), but tougher in a freestanding room heater.

As to your questions of "plain old good stoves" - yes, I do think there are quite a few out there. Dig around our stove ratings sections - look for folks that have used the stove for a couple years. Look for internal parts which are inexpensive and relatively easy to replace. I've been laughed at for suggesting a stove that might "be the one to choose if I had to live on a mountaintop", but that sounds like exactly what you want!

Years ago, we had a wealthy Indian dude visit our store - complete with posse of MANY BMW's, and he wanted a stove to put in his vacation house in the Himalayan mountains! They would have to TREK the thing up on mule or yak or whatever the animal used in those parts is.....

We sold him an Avalon! I sold thousands of that particular model and never replaced ONE. Nor did any ever need more than $100 in parts (glass being the most expensive thing at the time)....

But I am a little behind the times and that was a steel stove. I'll leave it to our more recent dealers and customers here to suggest which of todays models of cast stoves might hold up on the mountain top (without as many trips down).

Note the post yesterday from a Century owners (same maker, vc) who has by his own admission used the stove HARD for four years and has had no problems other than now needing some cheap firebrick.


----------



## elkimmeg (Oct 30, 2007)

This will get me banned and this may be my last post.I spoke to the head of Vermont castings operations and they want details and to see those castings.

 They are very interested in seeking an resolution.  I will be supplying they this post link so that they may personally read it and possibly respond.

 Thanks all I enjoyed my time here hopefully this issue gets resolved..

Email text I received

"{What is the web site again?....this is the first I have heard of an
issue with the refractory in the Dutchwest...is the cat or non-cat being
referred to?.....we have sent out no refractory replacements per our
current warranty reports...dale "

-----Original Message-----
 [mailto:elkimmeg@comcast.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 12:26 PM
To: xxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Refractory casting


----------



## tradergordo (Oct 30, 2007)

I have this same stove by the way.  PLEASE post pictures of the damage, it will be useful in both diagnosis, and for other owners.  I'm still not sure what part you are talking about (the shoe?  Or the delicate refractory liner which can only be accessed by reaching down into the flue collar?)

As for the cast iron firebox top cracking three times - this certainly does sound like overfiring.  Now WHY its overfiring is a whole other important question - for example maybe there is a manufacturing defect in your stove such that there is an air leak that you can't really fix - or maybe its one of the more obvious air leaks.  Have you checked all your gaskets?

FYI: I also burn 24/7, did about 3.5 cords last year.  If you haven't seen it already, the review thread I started for this stove can be found here:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/4188/

I think this sounds like something that should be covered by the warranty and if your dealer won't help, and you are handy, I would try to contact CFM directly and get them to send the part to you directly and do the replacement yourself.  I posted a link to the service manual in the review thread above.

I also haven't been 100% satisfied with this stove but I consider last year (my first year with the stove) as a learning year.  I want to see how things go this year before I make a final judgement about this stove and/or the "everburn" design.  But all in all last year wasn't bad, I burned the amount of wood I expected, and I kept my house cozy warm all winter long.  Could other stoves be easier to operate (less finicky) particularly when it comes to high efficiency, clean burning?  Probably... I'll have more to report by next year.  My stove (and I think other's as well) came with gasket problems, I didn't get that fully resolved until the burn season was completely over - so I feel like I don't even know for sure what to expect this year (I haven't started burning yet, its not cold enough).


----------



## LarryD (Oct 30, 2007)

I certainly am amazed at the responses.  

Chris-As I said earlier, I stopped by my dealer and he put in for a warranty without even seeing pictures or seeing the stove.  I am certainly relieved.  I too am concerned about the future of this unit.  We have pretty much decided on fixing this stove and selling it.  We are debating on what stove is next.  I am leaning towards a Quadra Fire, but am open to suggestions.  We seem to have same taste in stoves.  Wher in the North east Kingdom are you?  I once stopped at a Dutch West dealer near Burlington and they seemed pretty good.  I think it was between Burlington and Montpelier off of 93.

Elk-I will post pictures hopefully tonight.  You know how it is when you lend something to a brother.  He has my digital camera.

Tradergordo-I have read your reviews of this stove and was encouraged by your experience.  We actually learned a lot form your review.  I think if you use # of cords burned, perhaps Chris and I have burned a bit more than you.  How old is your stove?  I know that there is far more involved than that of course.  I wonder if it is just a matter of time.  The part that is crumbling is the soft refractory piece under the flew collar.

I'll be back later.  Dinner is on the table

Larry D


----------



## webbie (Oct 30, 2007)

Great that this issue in on its way to being resolved (in one way or another).....

However, any programmer or math major out there can tall us "what are the chances of two people having this same problem, posting on the same day on a little internet Forum - AND, these two having been the only time that such a problem was heard by the manufacturer?". 

So the dealer says it is not unheard of, but the head of operations never heard of it? Possible, for certain, but the point is that they may need to get a better feedback system in place which identifies problems earlier. 

Could just be a simple lack of communications....after all, they never heard of Hearth.com either, so they are not "in the know" as far as what is going on out there. 

Sounds like it is crumbling from the top, not the hard "shoe", maybe the continuous vibration of the bypass and loading doors are making it crack and break. Who knows? Well, it sound like we will know eventually.


----------



## BrotherBart (Oct 30, 2007)

Just like the cracking welds on the DW inserts we will never really know. There is just too much potential liability for a manufacturer to admit a systemic problem with a stove. Replace individual components. Sure. Hope no two owners of the stove ever meet. Sure.

Admit the problem on the Internet. Not in my lifetime or anybody elses.

Does that mean that there are flaws in the design of DW stoves?. Of course not. These may be flukes or they may not be. Just don't be holding your breath waiting for a stove builder to show up here and discuss it either way. No gain and only the possibility for pain. It doesn't mean they are evil. But they are if they know it is a problem and they keep letting people light a fire in the living room in the things no matter what company they are.


----------



## webbie (Oct 30, 2007)

Don't mind me - I'm still angry at my Whitfield rep who, when we had a 100% control board failure rate, told me not to tell the customers....and also that he was not supposed to tell me! 
People make mistakes, companies also do. That is expected. However, people also naturally expect their $2000 modern stove to last as long as their $435. 1978 model (which may still be going strong). 

Woodstock has a 150 year old soapstone stove (it actually looks like theirs!) in the showroom.

hey, here is it...
https://www.hearth.com/visit/wsvisit/image/ws25.jpg


----------



## LarryD (Oct 31, 2007)

Here is a picture of the "damage".  I have  few more.  I just Learned how to re-size a picture it may take me a few minutes.

Larry D


----------



## LarryD (Oct 31, 2007)

Here is another.  I think you can see the hole as well as the right side that is "crumbling"

The next question will be, what is it like to replace a part like this?

LarryD


----------



## Chrisg (Oct 31, 2007)

Thanks elk for making that contact I would very pleased if they contacted me as a result of your efforts and this forum.
Just finished reading the entire write up about the 2479 courtesy of the provided link.Very enlightening seems like some common themes among all users of this stove.I would like to state that my temps have been nowhere near some of the posted temps so again I don't think it's an over firing issue. I like to think I pay very close attention to the stove as far as temps are concerned particularly that first year of use when I was a new user of this model.
The three pc replaced include the original when new -one year of use well yr and half because dealer screwed around for half the second season,2nd pc replaced late feb 07 used rest of season noticed cracked again when I cleaned chimney and 3rd pc which I am tentatively supposed to be receiving sometime maybe. 
Admin it is interesting you bring up vibration because I wondered if this pc may be cracking due to the way the damper slams down when closed, just a thought I had while trying to figure out what is going on.
Larry that does not look good at all.Definitely not the same pc I was referring to when I mentioned broken refractory pc.Maybe I am not using the right term for the pc I am talking about.The pc I am referring to is actually inside the stove it self in back at bottom.When I cleaned chimney I did look down in that area in your pics and every thing looked good so that is a plus I guess.


----------



## elkimmeg (Oct 31, 2007)

Please note how white that black stove looks Ok the parts in question are not the refractory shoe of the everburn system but the soft insulation type package surrounding the secondary combustion chamber We had a post back when Seaken and I determined the chimney sweep rammed his cleaning brush through the soft refractory package. (Called the dog housing)

  Reviewing the post one poster has had 3 tops replaced due to cracking then this picture of a black stove almost snow white Before venturing further, Let me explain the accuracy of magnetic stove top thermometers  I have 9 here 4 that work fairly accurate 5 that don't . all bought brand new Of the 5 that don't work right they stick in one temperature position and have to be tapped to reflect a real reading.  Shame to trust a $2000 stove that $9 thermo is the index gage of how it is operating.  Two after I got my former stove too hot refused to record accurately after that

 IT is my opinion these stoves have been severly over fired .So much so 3 times the top casting was cracked, so much so the other stove is almost snow white. 

 When doubt slam the manufacturer and dealer. The Dealer has replaced the top 3 times do you think he suspects over firing and does not want to deal  with that stove again?

 So lets trash the dealer for not wanting to deal with a stove he knows is over fired.  Also lets trash the stove manufacturer because we severely over fired the stove and now it needs repairs.

 Could it be they were weakened by over firing?  What about pushing the cleaning brush to far hitting the Dog housing? It has happened before.  What about a wire brush ccleaning this soft material  or a shop vac tip handled with a bit too much pressure on refractory insulation already subjected to severe over firing.. 

I know it is impossible an owner operator can over fire a stove

 I am going to add to this post after I check my e-mail and other things out I also suspect some other causes


----------



## elkimmeg (Oct 31, 2007)

Part two
 Another way to over fire the stove is using the ash door to start the fire  rapid heating does cause thermal shock to the metals that can cause them to crack
 Or  opening the ash door and forgetting to latch it tightly closed, or forgetting and leaving it open

 You see it is very easy to over fire these stoves leaving the loading doors cracked and forgetting to close them another way to over fire these stoves.

Burning real dry pine and construction material again it can easily be over fired leaving the air fully open not dampered down again one can over fire a stove

 Direct cut and past from the manual


Clean the chimney using a specially designed chimney 
cleaning brush, the same size and shape as the flue.

Inspect for and remove ash build-up behind the com- 
bustion package. This should be done in conjunction 
with annual cleaning of the chimney connector since 
this inspection is most conveniently done through the 
flue collar opening. Inspect the passages to either 
side of the combustion package (a mirror will be 
helpful) and vacuum away ash using a flexible vacu- 
um hose inserted into each passage. Care should be 
taken not to damage the white fibrous material in this 
rear chamber. (Fig. 34)


----------



## BrotherBart (Oct 31, 2007)

What the hell are you talking about Elk? My stove damn sure better be snow white inside when it is fired correctly. In fact it is up there just like that right now at a 550 stove top temp.

White outside = bad

White inside = good

Don't even think about telling me that a stove was over-fired by color without pictures of the outside of the stove.

Am I in a bad mood right now. Yep.


----------



## webbie (Oct 31, 2007)

Are there a bunch of pics that I missed? The white stoves? I am looking at one interior pic of a very normal looking interior.

Some confusion seems to be occurring because we have a couple people with a couple problems. Let me try to break it down.

One user has replaced his INNER top casting (a liner) two or three times - the same user may have problems with his refractory shoe.(chris)
The other user has a problem with a hole in (and perhaps crack and thinning out) of the refractory package.(larry)

Chris seems to be the heavier user?

Do I have this right? And is there a bunch of pics that I have missed?

Anyway, if nothing else show the limitations of online troubleshooting. Glad to hear that these particular (and apparently different) problems are being taken care of. At first glance, Chris seems to be the one who will continually have the same problems. Larrys problem could just be a fluke assuming that nothing else is wrong with the stove. It might have been weakened in shipment, etc. - 

I still think they should have a nice piece of sheet metal (stainless) protecting the top of that soft stuff against fingers, falling debris, etc.


----------



## elkimmeg (Oct 31, 2007)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> What the hell are you talking about Elk? My stove damn sure better be snow white inside when it is fired correctly. In fact it is up there just like that right now at a 550 stove top temp.
> 
> White outside = bad
> 
> ...



 the flue collar is removed you are lookinf from the top of the stove inside at the soft dog housing refractory insulation look at the top of that stove almost pure white 
 I agree the inside look like that but once you look to the top of that flue collar that is the top of that stove not inside the only inside exposure is the area within the flue collar space

 Craig it is my original mistake in incorrectly naming the refractory  ever burn shoe the problem. When I read  the entire post again, is the soft  insulation refractory package insulating the secondary combustion compartment which can only be viewed when the top flue collar is removed the cermanic even burn shoe was incorrectly  identified . this can easily be damage by cleaning the chimney and pushing the rod and brush to far especially if the flue outlet is in the top position. We have other post before where this has happened during  before

 These stoves are not refractory cemented seams ,but gasketed seams ,allowing more flex. Pretty hard to believe 3 tops  cracked and no over firing occurred


----------



## elkimmeg (Oct 31, 2007)

Looking at the picture and the location of the damaged area I have another explanation as to  how the damage occurred

 This is also assuming the flue collar is in the top mount position. This being true, what about  rain watter dripping down that chimney hitting that damaged spot? 

 Possibly condensation causing a drip.  The damage could have happened in the time the stove was not even operating.  Sure looks like a drip confined to an small isolated area


----------



## BrotherBart (Oct 31, 2007)

What about it is a piece of crap and fell apart in normal operation?

Fact of life Elk. Try to play cat stove in a non-cat stove and you can get into trouble reliability wise. Cute, neat and crumbles. Cat stoves are proven. Non-cats are proven. This hybrid appears to not be headed for that category.


----------



## webbie (Oct 31, 2007)

If it was water, that is one more reason for my little "stainless shield" which slips into place above the soft package and protects it from any water, chimney brushes, stones or anything else that comes down the flue. 

As far as over firing an interior liner of a stove, that is a tough one since we all know how hot an entire load of wood which has turned to embers gets..... there is no way to effectively keep the temperature on such an inner wall low! 

No doubt Chris is a heavier user than most....but he did buy the biggest stove in the line and burns a relatively normal amount for his climate and house. Whether it is the stove, the chimney, the fuel or the operator...or a combination of all the above, it would be nice if stoves (in general) were over-engineered and designed to take the heat. Both Elk and I had old Efel Kaminas - built of thin sheet metal with some cast liners and a stainless baffle. You could cut the thing in pieces with a tin shears. Yet I rarely replaced any parts except the baffle (after many years)...and glass, of course.


----------



## elkimmeg (Oct 31, 2007)

REQUEST CAN YOU TAKE MORE PICTURES OF THAT STOVE ALL AROUND THE OUTSIDE AND IN THE FIRE BOX AND POST THEM  sorry caps key was on


----------



## elkimmeg (Oct 31, 2007)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> If it was water, that is one more reason for my little "stainless shield" which slips into place above the soft package and protects it from any water, chimney brushes, stones or anything else that comes down the flue.  *That sounds like a great idea
> *
> As far as over firing an interior liner of a stove, that is a tough one since we all know how hot an entire load of wood which has turned to embers gets..... there is no way to effectively keep the temperature on such an inner wall low!
> 
> ...


*
great stove mine lasted 20 years a combination convection radiation stove with a swing out steak griller. *

 craig  from the pictures it is hard to believe it is only 2 years old.  I even see faded to whitish paint on the top a rust mark on the top. Could be  a distortion due to the camera flash that's why I would like to look at as many pictures of the stove as possible. No one mentioned the flue collar to connector pipe connection, whether it is a tight sound fit without any crimping exposed.

 Remember the crimping is 1.5" long and the stove collar is only 1" deep exposing 1/2" of crimping that can be an air leak into the stove


----------



## BurningIsLove (Oct 31, 2007)

I've had my DW 2479 for about the same time period (this will be my 2nd full season), and I was suprised a little bit how quickly the external area not covered by the internal firebrick (about 6" above the bottom of the primary combustion chamber) turned "white".  I put white in quotes as it is still very much black, but it is a perceptibly lighter shade of black than the area that does have internal firebrick.  I run my stove on the cooler side rather than hotter (about 420) as a general rule, so its not a result of overfiring.  A few times w/ excessively dry, seasoned wood the reburner has gone into what we refer to as 'nuclear' mode where even completely dampered down, sits around 650, but thats certainly the exception not the rule, and it turned 'white' before that happened for the first time.

Yes, I'll post pics when I get home for reference.  If I remember, I'll also take some shots of the secondary chamber when I remove the flue collar for comparison.  Mine is horizontal so it couldnt have been hit by rain or a chimney brush, so if its cracked, then I'd classify as a design defect.  Crossing my fingers


----------



## Gooserider (Oct 31, 2007)

Thus far, it looks to me like we have TWO different users, describing TWO DIFFERENT failure modes.  Perhaps because the users didn't understand the terminology it appeared to be similar failures, but it now sounds like two completely different types of failure.

Failue mode ONE sounds like the refractory "shoe" made out of a cast material similar to firebrick - a hard ceramic, located in the firebox, and in addition cracking in the damper frame.  WE HAVE NO PICTURES of this failure mode, and can't make any assumptions about abuse, etc.

Failure mode TWO involves the soft refractory "doghouse" in the back of the stove, under the flue collar, and NOT a part of the actual firebox.  We have ONE useable picture of the damage, in which I see a hole, but am not sure I see the crumbling referred to.  Elk has expressed an opinion that the stove was over-fired based on the area around the outside of the flue collar opening appearing white in the photo.  *I DISAGREE!*  If that stove was over fired because of the color, _so was the Encore Elk just sold me_ as a "perfect condition" stove! (I am not complaining about the stove BTW, it looks to me like it's in great shape, I can't wait till monday when I get inspected so I can fire it up...) It is also grey / white around the flue collar as can clearly be seen in the contrast betweeen the stove body and the new 6" collar I just put on it. I actually suspect that most of the whiteness is an illusion of the camera flash focusing on illuminating the refractory package and consequently over exposing the closer stove exterior.

I would agree with his potential diagnosis of mechanical damage from cleaning or possibly a drip, as opposed to a defect in material.  I would also agree with Craig's comment about the need for a shield of some sort over that fragile refractory package.  It is interesting to note that the original Encore 0028 does have such a stainless steel strip on it, but the newer 2550 and apparently the Dutchwests do not.  I know that stainless is expensive, but it seems to me that it would be good insurance to have that added protection.

Elk, I suspect you may be jumping the gun on diagnosing either of these failures as due to over firing, I would at the very least wait until we have more / better photos to work from.

Gooserider


----------



## webbie (Oct 31, 2007)

Stove paint is in no way designed to take the temps of cast on the interior portion of a stove. If these parts are painted, it is usually because it helps avoid rust in the warehouse. 

Even a normally fired stove of this type (non-cat) will have lots of white - plus even occasionally the red and orange (really hot) parts......you can't have secondary combustion without high temperatures, about 1100 degrees as I remember (got that from OLD literature).....then there is the temperature of an ember bed - my guess is as hot as 1400 degrees on the inside, and maybe 1000-1200 where it contacts the iron, steel or firebrick. Heck, if we floor the thermometer (900) on the outside, one can only imagine the temps on the inside. 

That piece of stainless, considering it might be a square foot all in all and 24-26 ga, would cost about 2 bucks. Not insignificant, but not too high. Aluminized steel would also hold up pretty well, at about 60 cents or so.

Maybe I'm an optimist, but I think these designs are sound. It is perhaps just the implementations and lack of enough destructive and field testing that may be the culprit. Maybe we will have to end up with titanium stoves (pricey).


----------



## tradergordo (Oct 31, 2007)

LarryD said:
			
		

> Tradergordo-I have read your reviews of this stove and was encouraged by your experience.  We actually learned a lot form your review.  I think if you use # of cords burned, perhaps Chris and I have burned a bit more than you.  How old is your stove?  I know that there is far more involved than that of course.  I wonder if it is just a matter of time.  The part that is crumbling is the soft refractory piece under the flew collar.



Arg - somehow I think my reply got eaten, apologies if it shows up twice...  at any rate - the title of your thread is wrong - the damaged part is not refractory cement, it is a fibrous ceramic filament material.  This material is delicate.  The owners manual says to be careful when you clean back there once a year.  The techs told me not to even let the vacuum cleaner nozzle hit it (which also tells me they have had plenty of owners that damaged it).  This stuff is expected to become brittle after the stove is fired, but I don't think it is supposed to be able to be damaged even from over firing, this does not seem like an over firing issue at all.  It is obviously also not expected to crumble.  

I wish we had a picture of what it looked like before you poked your thumb though it.  I'm sure mine would look the same way if I poked a finger though it so your pic doesn't tell us anything.  I will definitely monitor this part of my stove though, and report any problems.  I took several pictures this summer of this part of the stove and also deep down inside the back corners (I took the pics to see how much ash accumulated in the back corners - the owners manual suggested using a mirror, but a digital camera with a flash is even better).  I could post these pics but I don't know if it adds any value...

As for putting some sort of protective metal shield over this material - I agree that it seems like something should be changed about this design, but I'm pretty sure covering the ceramic material with metal would defeat the purpose of using this material in the first place.  That would probably decrease the performance of the stove (don't know for sure, the stove engineers would have to comment).

If in fact this material is breaking apart on its own, CFM/VC is going to have a massive problem on their hands - because that would definitely be something covered by the lifetime warranty and I'm sure the expense of repairs would be enormous unless they don't have to pay for the dealers' labor.

If you do end up repairing this on your own, let us know how difficult it is, and how much time it took.


----------



## webbie (Oct 31, 2007)

Trader, as you know the manual SHOWS someone snaking a vaccum cleaner hose all the way down the side of the package, and then sucking up the ash. It would be quite tough to slide hoses, etc. down there and not touch the refractory.

My metal cover thing would sit on top of the outside of the chamber - to protect against that hose, etc. - maybe I don't understand the combustion process in that model, but I assumed that nothing was happening at that point (covering the top where the finger went in)....

It may simply be that customers do not understand how fragile this stuff is - like thin styrofoam. If I was a layman, I would have a hard time comprehending that something which I would break apart with my finger could hold up to 1200 degrees plus!


----------



## tradergordo (Oct 31, 2007)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Trader, as you know the manual SHOWS someone snaking a vaccum cleaner hose all the way down the side of the package, and then sucking up the ash. It would be quite tough to slide hoses, etc. down there and not touch the refractory.



Yea, I know, its impossible to avoid touching it - I said "hit" not "touch".  I'd have to go back and check the exact words the CFM tech used, but I think it was basically don't bump/hit the stuff.  The manual just says "be careful" but doesn't go nearly into enough detail.  Heck I was tempted to poke the stuff myself just to see what would happen (glad I didn't).



			
				Webmaster said:
			
		

> My metal cover thing would sit on top of the outside of the chamber - to protect against that hose, etc. - maybe I don't understand the combustion process in that model, but I assumed that nothing was happening at that point (covering the top where the finger went in)....



I don't know for sure if secondary burn gets up that high or not.  But if not, then why did they bother to put the ceramic material there in the first place?  If the material doesn't help the stove in that spot they should just get rid of it.


----------



## LarryD (Oct 31, 2007)

Everyone,

Here is a picture I just took of the interior of the stove.  I would say that if the stove were overfired it would be all white.  I guess one could say that our last fire wasn't an overfire situation.  This is typical of what the interior looks like.

Trader-I guess I need to clarify what occured.  I did read the manual but did not reread it prior to vacuming.  I was trying to be careful (I was aware that the part was delicate).  I, at the time I posted, did not know the name of the part.  After noticing that the piece was crumbling (like wet card board), I removed the vacumn hose and just barely touched the surface and my thumb went through.  That is what I call delicate.  I am not saying that it isn't possible that I didn't do anything I should'nt have.  I do think this happened VERY easily.  I will say that our experience with the stove over all has been ok.  We do feel now that if we can run this stove, we can run pretty much any stove.  You need to be dialed into it.  Back to the overfiring issue.  We have a VC stove top thermometer as well as a Stack temp gauge in the double wall pipe going to the SS pipe.  They are consistant, generally the stack gauge is about twice the surface temp. so 550 surface 1100 stack.  I think that is about what you should expect, correct?  I agree with Elk that we trust a $1,500 stove to $35 worth of gauges.  I suppose they both could be off but what are the chances of that?

LarryD


----------



## BurningIsLove (Oct 31, 2007)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> Thus far, it looks to me like we have TWO different users, describing TWO DIFFERENT failure modes.  Perhaps because the users didn't understand the terminology it appeared to be similar failures, but it now sounds like two completely different types of failure.



Gooserider, wasnt sure if you were referring to my post or the other one w/ the cracked top re: failures.  I didnt mean to imply in my post that I had experienced a failure, quite far from it.  Just commenting that whitening doesnt always imply overfiring.


----------



## webbie (Nov 1, 2007)

LarryD said:
			
		

> Everyone,
> 
> Here is a picture I just took of the interior of the stove.  I would say that if the stove were overfired it would be all white.  I guess one could say that our last fire wasn't an overfire situation.  This is typical of what the interior looks like.
> 
> LarryD



That's a fine looking interior.......

I'll have to study these stoves a bit more. On all the first acclaims, the cast iron in the rear  - near that "mouth" would warp, crack and need replaced quite often - but it was designed to be easily replaceable. This new part looks SUPER thick, and perhaps that is how they solved the problem. A really thick casting can transfer the heat away from itself (like a heat sink).

Maybe they also added alloy to that part.

This stove looks very lightly used, and because your problem was not related to excess heat anyway (probably physical shock, or thin part in the first place, etc.), I don't think your burning or anything else is a problem.

Back to the original "patching" suggestions - if I had a stove like this and it was out of warranty or hard to replace the part, I would have no problem patching that up with a similar material - it is done everyday with furnaces, boilers and even power plants! Heck, I would patch it just to see what would happen! (Nothing, IMHO). I would use a "wetpac" type of product which you mix with water and place on there....this stuff has fiber in it and holds pretty well. Another solution would be to glue a small square patch of similar material over it - if it doesn't get in the way of anything.


----------



## webbie (Nov 1, 2007)

tradergordo said:
			
		

> I don't know for sure if secondary burn gets up that high or not.  But if not, then why did they bother to put the ceramic material there in the first place?  If the material doesn't help the stove in that spot they should just get rid of it.



I'm assuming that it is only the INSIDE of that chamber that is taking the heat - and that a piece of metal on the outside would hold up.

As I said, I have to look closer, but that seems to be the gas flow - the top of this only has the relatively cooler gases going over it and out the flue.


----------



## LarryD (Nov 1, 2007)

[quote "This stove looks very lightly used, and because your problem was not related to excess heat anyway (probably physical shock, or thin part in the first place, etc.), I don’t think your burning or anything else is a problem"]

I guess lightly used is relative.  We generally burn (1st year 5 cords and last year 4 cords) the stove continuously.  9 cords in 2 years, I guess thats light.  We live in central Connecticut, I don't consider this area to be frigid.  We do have a distinct heating season.  It is bothersome that perhaps this part was damaged by this little use.  Again I was barely touching the part when the hole poked through.

I guess the next step is to fix it!  I will post pictures when I open the stove up.  Perhaps there is more to teh story

Thanks again for all the help

Larry D


----------



## tradergordo (Nov 1, 2007)

I think you should talk to someone at CFM to see what they say about it, and ask them if this is a common problem (and how to fix it).  The temps you mentioned seem normal by the way.


----------



## webbie (Nov 1, 2007)

Stoves looks pretty dang good for nine cords in two years. I think they probably have most of the "high temp" bugs out of these things.


----------



## elkimmeg (Nov 1, 2007)

this material is the same material that insulates the molten cast iron  urns  capable of withstanding 2700 degrees and very light weight


Craig the inside fire box picture is the Everburn shoe rerefractory material that replaced the lod cast iron plates from the 80's stoves they did the same with the resolute encore and others after the cracking and warping of the cast iron parts they even have retrofit  refractory parts to be used in older Resolutes.

 This is concrete type material rerfactory concrete practically indestructible According to Vc none have need replacing yet in the 4 plus years of usage Note the holes pattern at the bottom
 that is the main component of the everburn technology for VC or Fire dome for Harman  oakwood T another main difference is the poprimary air is mixed into the secondary burn chamber not the secondary air like the cat stoves but really super heated. I'm not hyping A manufacturer but the technology. Been in production going on 5 years even the resolute Acclaim now enploy this technology No prior model can now be compared to the current too many internal changes and combustion changes to compare All the old issues no longer apply they are not the same stoves Only the outer casing cast iron design remains the same Also changed is no more refractory joints all seams are gasketed and bolted together A lot has changed sine you sold these stoves
 might I submit they are entirely a different stove gasket joints allow more heating flexing a as well can not be compared to the past models Let Seaken explain tthe technology see if he can add to what I have said Shane sold them as well.


----------



## Gooserider (Nov 1, 2007)

Amazing what you learn when carefully reviewing the thread to see what is REALLY there...  I have just gone back through all four pages, and have the following capsule summary.

1. TWO userrs, with TWO different failures, apparently NOT related.  

2. Both users claim to not be over-firing, both use thermometers, both are "heavy burners" by which I mean they heat full time, burning 4-5 cords / year.

The key quotes, with capsule summary and status...



			
				[b said:
			
		

> LarryD[/b]]I was just cleaning the interior of my stove, (I know I should have cleaned it this spring) and was vacumning out the space to the rear of the refractory “ever burn system”.  There was a lot of soot and ash so I figured the best way to get it out was to use my shop vac.  I noticed one corner was crumbling and was sort of inspecting the balance and my thumb went right through it.



Problem is with the refractory package under the flue collar, it is apparently getting replaced under warranty.  Cause may be mechanical damage, a water leak dripping on that point, or other, could be overfiring, but does not appear likely from pictures.  Other parts of stove are not said to be a problem.  Appears to be a "one-shot" failure.  Most of the thread discussion has involved this problem.



			
				[b said:
			
		

> Chrisg[/b]]I ‘am in the same boat with same stove and it is basically falling apart....If I was you I would also look inside the stove with a flashlight at the area around the damper for cracks out of the corners.This peice is called the Inner top and I will be getting my third one replaced soon after fighting tooth and nail with dealer and multiple calls to vc support.



Problem description definitely includes the damper frame, may or may not include the ceramic "shoe" - the shoe was mentioned later, but it isn't clear.  Problem appears to be chronic as this is third go-round.  WE HAVE NO PICTURES!  Problem does sound more like something caused by over-firing, but from where we sit, this can't be determined.  I don't really see how we can be of much more help unless Chris posts more pictures or otherwise supplies us with more info.

Hope this summary helps...

Gooserider


----------



## titan (Nov 1, 2007)

I got to play with a new Defiant non-cat yesterday @ a local dealer;I came away fairly impressed.....it was really throwing heat and the coal bed with the everburn system was just firing away.I now see the addictive convenience of having a top loader.


----------



## webbie (Nov 1, 2007)

All else being equal, top loading is pretty cool. Problem is, all else is not always equal.....

Goose provides an interesting summary of the thread - it appears that one instance (multiple top replacements of iron pieces?) might be over-firing or design, and the other could simply be a part (which is probably outsourced) that might have been cast thin (the soft ceramic) or might have been shocked in some way by shipping, handling, etc.

I will have to go back and read to see the exact part that Chris replaced a couple time (part #?). 

In terms of Larry, I would not sell or be disillusioned with the stove because of that hole in the soft stuff - could be a fluke. Stove interior looks A-1, like it is ready for LOTS of more years. As I mentioned, this technology has been under development for 20 years (since 1988)....I would hope and assume that it is quite a bit better than early models. Elk assures us that is the case, and I think the VC dealers here agree.


----------



## LarryD (Nov 7, 2007)

I don't know if I should have started a new thread, but same stove continued!!

I got the "soft refractory part" from my dealer, it was warranteed.  Now the hard part, replacing it.  I took the stove apart.  For those of you who have taken a stove apart, I would like input as to some of the things to look for while re-assemabling.  For those of you that have not, kind of a scary thing.  I kept thinking how am I gonna get this back together!

Anyhow, I have pictures of what the old and new packages look like.  For those of you that are experienced at what the inside of a stove should look like, I would like your feedback.  I would think that by looking at this that the stove has been overfired.  I asked my wife, she runs the stove during the day, if she ever had the stove real hot and she said "no".  I guess the question is, is this normal?


----------



## LarryD (Nov 7, 2007)

This is the shot looking into the stove once the "everburn" pieces are removed.  Notice teh verticle crack.  Again is this what you would expect after tow years of use?  Did we do something wrong?

Thanks again for all the help.

Larry D


----------



## LarryD (Nov 7, 2007)

This is a shot of the rear of the "everburn".  There is a black discoloration but no apparent damage to the part.

Also for those that burn this stove there was quite a bit of ash inside the system and in the refractory.  Again this may be unique to us.  Might be worth looking into.

Larry D


----------



## webbie (Nov 7, 2007)

Short of burning trash or pallets and leaving ash pan doors open for an extended period of time, it should not be easy to over fire a stove. Millions of stoves have been sold, and as a general rule they don't start disintegrating at 2 years old. 

As I mentioned before, all stoves today have tightly controlled air intakes, and UL does not allow them to open too far (unlike earlier models).

I don't like the looks of that refractory package! But from afar there is no way I can say whether it is the stove design, the part composition, over firing or anything else. We can only give hints as to help you try to burn better.

I guess the major theme is this. If the stove has been over fired, it is probably because of excess draft - meaning a chimney that is too strong. It might be a good idea to install a barometric draft regulator on your pipe to slow down (balance) the chimney. That will often do a lot to avoid overheating of the stove.

Also, use a stovetop thermometer and try to keep it below 750.

Back to the refractory package - that is designed to take the hottest temperatures possible that wood can dole out. So it is very hard to say that such a part could be over fired. The system is doing exactly what it is supposed to be doing, burning the wood gases. It would be extremely difficult for you to control the temperature at which wood gases are burning!

All guesswork, but that ceramic looks like a combination of heat AND chemicals from the wood attacking it. In one sense we are back to some of the original questions in this thread about long-term and destructive testing of particular parts....in this case, the question perhaps being:
"Can a ceramic like this take the heat of 10 to 50 cords of wood and all the associated chemical produced by that, PLUS the humidity of the summer reacting with that?".

Perhaps Keitho or one of our engineers would like to weight in on this.


----------



## elkimmeg (Nov 7, 2007)

that soft refractory material is the same material the insulated the molten cast iron for cooling in the urns pots   with the ash door  open to overcome wet wood
I wondering if over firing occurred and that steam reacted with sulfur gas and created H2so4 and rooted out the soft refractory package. There is way too much damage to a material that can take 2700 degrees even stove over heating should not come close to those temperatures. Does the chimney leak moisture back into the stove.

 Nothing happening here is normal there has to be another explanation the damage is way beyond stove heating I suppose leaving the ash door open will create a blast furnace effect. Every picture is indicative of over heating abuse.  or  not normal operations.. I have not taken apart a two year old stove but have taken plenty others I will try to help as much as I can even if I need to go to VC to get a rebuilding instructions Mind If I share those photos withVC I have  never seen the everburn shoe refractory crack I even smacked one with an 8 lb sledgehammer held waist high an only bounce off


----------



## tradergordo (Nov 7, 2007)

The rebuilding instructions you speak of were posted in the review thread for this stove.  Seems like a very straightforward process, there really aren't that many parts, and there are photos for every step.  My only question would be related to replacing those internal gaskets - there is no info on that in the service manual (like the size or if there are any special considerations - maybe its obvious?).

As far as those pics of the damage - its hard to tell what we are looking at in the first pic - is that a badly damaged and deteriorated secondary burn chamber or is it just covered with ash?  The crack in the second pic looks pretty insignificant to me but I have no idea if hairline cracks like this are normal or not?


----------



## webbie (Nov 7, 2007)

I agree that the hairline doesn't look like a problem.

Look closely at that refractory, though, and you see it is not covered with ash, but malformed in numerous ways. Compare the angles, etc. with the new one.


----------



## LarryD (Nov 8, 2007)

I guess describing each picture would have been a good idea.
The first picture is a comparison of the old part and the new.  The differences that I can see is that the throat of the "package" ssems to either have a lot of build up or is delaminating.  If that is possible.
The second picture is the face of the soft refractory package.  It is up against the ceramic refractory.  The cr4ack is more than superficial, it appears to go through that part of the package.
The third picture is the rear of the upper ceramic refractory.  It is discolored but seems to be fine other wise.

I have opened the ash pan door on occasion.  The only reason I have done this is with a very low coal bed to get some flames going after I've loaded the stove with wood, the by pass damper was always open.  I than shut the door.  I have always been afraid of getting distracted and forgetting about it.

We do use a stove top thermometer.  At the end of last year we added a stack temp gauge through the double wall pipe.  We have placed the gauge on top of the griddle to the rear near the stove pipe.

Elk-  By all means please do share the pictures.  I am interested in knowing what has occured.  Again I am not saying we are innocent.  I would like to clarify, the ceramic refractory is undamaged.  It is the soft refractory that is "toast".  You have also mentioned water/moisture getting into the pipe.  I suppose it is possible.  However when I took the pipe off to clean it was completely dry.  I have seen nothing to suggest that I have a leak or moisture building up.  I will say this though.  We have suspected overdraft for quite some time.  Our max burn time has been about 5-51/2 hours.  No twhat I thought it would be.  We also have had a difficult time at time regulating the stove with the air control.  We have also been woken up in the middle of the night with the stove in the thermal nuclear mode.

Tradergordo-I did overlook the instructions.  The rub as you said it doesn't give any direction as to the gasket material.  That is where I got stuck this evening.  I am not sure where it all belongs ( I wish I took pictures).

Once I get it back together I'll be happy.  I did end up buying a new quadra fire.  I am concerned about what to do with this stove.  I am not sure at this point reselling it is a good idea until I know what has occurred.

Thanks again for all your help.  I look at this as a learning experience (an expensive one).  I am interested in what occured and what we had to do with it.

Larry D


----------



## webbie (Nov 8, 2007)

The barometric draft regulator may be your best solution. You should easily be able to get 8+ hours with that stove....and while 5 1/2 is nothing to sneeze at, the baro will balance the chimney. Another option is to put a turn damper in the stove pipe, and then find a good setting (closing off partway), and leave it in that position (mark it on the pipe).


----------



## BurningIsLove (Nov 8, 2007)

Yeah, I've been a bit disappointed w/ the burn times.  The manual claims 14 hours for burn time.  I have gotten close to that before, but thats certainly the exception and have only gotten that high under the most ideal of conditions.   Ten hours from a fully loaded firebox to a small bed of coals is closer to the norm, which as Craig says, isn't bad at all.  It's nice not having to rebuild a fire in the morning!

I had another "run away" fire two nights ago.  Stove COMPLETELY dampered down and the magnetic thermometer on top of the flu connector pipe (single wall) didnt drop below 600 for over 2 hours.  I'm going to be disassembling the back of the stove in a few weeks, will check for damage, but I'm cautiously optimistic that I wont have the kind of damage seen in those photos.


----------



## Gooserider (Nov 8, 2007)

Thanks for the explanation, it helps to know what the photos are showing.  

What is that white stuff along the right edge of both packages in the first picture - looks sort of like shaving cream?  Is it some kind of extra sealing gasket or something?

As a data point, I believe that both the ceramics and the soft refractory packages are made in house by VC in the VT plant - Elk and I saw the area where they were made on our tour up there.  Not to say they couldn't have had an in house manufacturing defect, or possibly a bad batch of material.

The crack in the second picture doesn't look like it is in a place where it would do serious harm since it is backing up against the refractory panel, but on general principle, it isn't a good thing.  Just as a theory that occurred to me from looking at it, is to wonder if it might have been caused by something pushing the opening in the package down against that rounded "hump" in the shoe under it - the way the crack seems to start from the corner of the package is the same way I'd expect it to let go if something were trying to break it by putting a spreading pressure in that opening.  (I repeat that this is purely speculation on my part - I have no idea if it is actually the cause, or how it would have occured if it were...)

Gooserider


----------



## tradergordo (Nov 8, 2007)

The sad thing is that not one person so far has posted that they are able to get consistent good results from this stove.  Lots of people have posted about problems, some serious, several have posted that they replaced the stove with a different model (at their own expense).  To me, burning clean is of the utmost importance - I don't want my neighbors to even know that I'm burning, and I certainly don't want to smoke up the neighborhood.  Many of us "everburners" have given these stoves all our effort, using them for 1 or 2 full years now, experimenting in every way we can imagine.  And after all this effort the best we can say is that it "sometimes" gives a long clean burn.  I think under IDEAL conditions, perfect draft, perfect wood, and a huge coal bed, you can get good results - for the other 95% of the time you won't.  

I just started burning again last night (we finally made it down to the low 20's with a good hard frost) and if you can't tell already, I'm frusterated with this stove.  I can heat my house fine, but it doesn't burn clean, and burntimes are normally not that great.  Honestly I'm almost ready to buy another stove - which really sucks because it will increase my payoff time on investment by at least another year if not more (and most of us know how much work goes into gathering, splitting, stacking a year's supply of wood).  

I wish there was some way I could swap out my stove with CFM/Vermont Castings for just about any other model they sell that actually works consistently (I wouldn't mind going catalytic) without costing me an arm and a leg.  I think they need to step up to the plate and admit that this design is flawed, and they need to either fix it or stop selling this model of stove. There have been enough complaints already on this forum, and like I said, literally not one person has come out saying they are fully satisfied with this stove (BurningIsLove and myself are the closest thing, and I don't think that is saying much at this point!)

My friend who bought a cheap-o $700 Drollet last year from northerntool.com says he never has visible smoke coming out his chimney except when starting a new fire or reloading (and then only for a short time).  I'm tempted to just buy one of them myself, of course now that winter's here they want $1000 for it.

IF CFM/VERMONT CASTINGS had any business sense at all they would make me happy.  My silly "woodstove" webpage has had over 12,000 hits since I put it out there, not to mention the much more significant traffic on hearth.com which contains reviews from me and many other people on their stoves.  Over the years I'm sure I will influence hundreds of sales of whatever stove I end up actually being satisfied with.  At this point I can only hope that I did NOT influence too many people to purchase a Dutchwest because I think it will lead new wood burners to frusteration and smokey neighborhoods.  

Elk - if you can forward this to someone at CFM that actually cares (if there is anyone) I would love to get some feedback from them...


----------



## webbie (Nov 8, 2007)

I guess there is something to be said for "dumbing down" a stove so that it works in most situations. This has always been an example set by the auto industry - notice that you can get into almost any car made, and operate it immediately! VC has always been about engineering and the founder (long gone) was all about quality. But one thing they never did was to follow the crowd as far as stove design....and, who knows, maybe they should have! 

I really doubt that the basic premise is flawed - I used an Acclaim for years and it worked very well. But perhaps what is flawed is the tuning of the system so "tightly" in an attempt to get "bragging rights" for low GPH numbers. That is just a guess, of course. I spoke to two different 30 year Hearth industry veterans who told me this might be the case. One said that the reason the Encore NC has such low numbers is that VC tested it with the max. burn at 27,000 BTU. If they tested with the max burn at a higher number (35K, for instance) the GPH would have been much higher.

Another friend who sat in the test lab of a competing model said that they got VERY low numbers on their stove, but found that this hurt the burning of the particular model when actual firewood (as opposed to EPA fuel) was used. So they added a bunch of air at other various places, which doubled their GPH (and still way under the limits).

As we are perhaps seeing here, EPA GPH is not always the key to shopping for a stove.

All that said, it is hard to imagine that 95% of these stoves are not working well. Problems tend to find us here at Hearth.com. I think we will have to wait awhile before the verdict comes in. 

Not to ramble on too far, but this reminds me of a conversation I had at a party with some of the scientists at Corning Glass, the inventors of the woodstove catalytic converter. We were discussing performance of these models, and the Corning lady said something like "Ideally, there would be a mechanism to level out the draft on all chimneys so it would fall in a (perfect) range - this would greatly enhance performance and ease of operation" (my paraphrase)......But I think that is what we see here sometimes.....and why I would suggest a barometric or turn damper for anyone who suspects over draft. One problem complicates another one - and the lining/insulating of chimneys has probably caused a lot of them to be TOO strong.


----------



## seaken (Nov 8, 2007)

Fact is, happy customers don't talk much.

VC is not lying when they say they have had very little negative feedback on this Everburn. Yes, there has been some. But there has not yet been convincing evidence that the design is defective. I have a few customers who swear the same thing about the catalytic Encore. They tell me the stove is garbage and the design is defective. Yet I have far more happy customers who just love the thing. And I personally burn these stoves and can only come to the conclusion that these stoves are not for everybody. 

Some users will be better off with a simple box stove, like the Drolet mentioned. Now, how many people will claim that the steel box stove design is defective when the weld breaks? I have seen these steel stoves completely warped with broken welds and split panels. It is not that the design is defective, but that no piece of steel or cast iron can hold up to every conceivable field condition. My personal preference is a cast iron stove with removable parts that I can repair when it breaks. I find it much more inconvenient to repair a broken weld or piece of plate steel. But that is my preference. It doesn't make my stove better than someone elses. It is choice.

The Everburn is designed to allow for simple replacement of the interior parts. This is a continuation of the technique used by VC for several years now. Some people do not like that the interior parts are subject to overheating and damage. Some do not like that they have to pay for proprietary replacement parts on a variable routine. For these folks I try to encourage them to buy another type of stove. The simple box stoves are cheaper to maintain and the interior parts are typically easier for the user to replace. But these stoves also do not have the nice features of the VC cast iron models. I inform them that they will pay more annually to use a VC stove. They then make the choice.

With this approach we sell these VC and DW cast iron stoves more than three times the number of simple steel box stoves. Occasionally, we get a customer who ends up hating his stove and we take it back and give them a more simple steel box stove, or maybe a Morso cast iron with the similar baffle design.

Here's the bottom line - Some users of the VC cast iron stoves will need to replace the secondary combustion parts every couple of years. Some users will need to replace these parts every 8 to 10 years. This is part of the cost of these stoves. We tell people up front. Be prepared to spend about $150 annually to maintain your stove. Some will need to pay closer to $300, some closer to $100. It depends on a lot of variables that cannot be determined until a burn pattern has been established.

This is not unlike automobiles, or lawn tractors. I spend about $1000 annually to maintain my truck. About $100 annually to maintain the lawn tractor. I also need to replace my recliner after twenty years. It's going to cost at least $1000 for a replacement, but closer to $2000 if I want a good one that will last another twenty years.

I can confidently say that I have far more happy customers burning their VC and DW Everburn or catalytic cast iron stoves than I do unhappy customers who believe the stove is defective. When I discover that a client is unhappy I work hard to determine the cause. I have not once found the problem to be a defective design. Sure, some aspects of the design are inconvenient when compared to other more simple designs. But when operated properly and with the right expectations the design of these stoves has proven to be very effective. Most of the time I am able to instruct my clients on how to better use these stoves and they end up with a different attitude over time. Sometimes, they can't be convinced, at which time I suggest it is time to switch to a more simple stove. The number of times this happens annually can be counted on one hand. We are careful to match the stove to the customer BEFORE the sale. VC's problem is not their design it's that they are selling to consumers who do not understand their philosophy. They need better dealers who understand the products and are willing to do the work to educate their customers. If I was not technically capable I would not be selling VC. I can say the same about pellet and gas stoves in general. Many dealers, while usually nice folk, simply are not technically proficient and only want to sell product. This can cause problems when the customer has an experience they were not expecting.


----------



## BurningIsLove (Nov 8, 2007)

While their fundamental design may not be flawed, the execution is clearly not what it should be.  The fact that my reburner either 'stalls' or goes 'nuclear' under the same conditions (temp/draft) and fuel makes me think that they have a flaw (design or deployment) with the secondary air.  EPA laws don't allow the user to manually change this, and I think I could make the stove work MUCH better (and safer!) if I could control that directly.   Users shouldnt even have to contemplate cracking open the ash pan door to get proper performance.

I have no issue with VC marketting a stove for more advanced users that takes a little more attention and rewards with low emissions and long burn times, but the envelope where this stove operates well is so extremely small, and it's too great a moving target even for people like us who have grown up w/ wood stoves.


----------



## BurningIsLove (Nov 8, 2007)

seaken said:
			
		

> The number of times this happens annually can be counted on one hand. We are careful to match the stove to the customer BEFORE the sale. VC's problem is not their design it's that they are selling to consumers who do not understand their philosophy. They need better dealers who understand the products and are willing to do the work to educate their customers. If I was not technically capable I would not be selling VC. I can say the same about pellet and gas stoves in general. Many dealers, while usually nice folk, simply are not technically proficient and only want to sell product. This can cause problems when the customer has an experience they were not expecting.



I agree education/matching is important, but if you do not have a dealer who does this (mine has been absolutely zero help), then the manufacturer should step up.  I am not concerned w/ defective welds, plates, or having to replace components every few years as part of regular maintenance, any good burner like your car owner analogy should know to expect that.  But a brand new stove should not have be treated like a 1950's muscle car after its 2nd season.

Barring defects, the manual has virtually no helpful information on how to make the stove operate efficiently, and as tradergordo points out, the VC engineers are not chiming in with any input.  There have been extra docs posted on the Everburn philosophy, again provided by the Hearth people, not VC, but when followed they still do not yield acceptable day to day operation.


----------



## seaken (Nov 8, 2007)

BurningIsLove said:
			
		

> seaken said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Believe me, I understand what you are saying and agree in principle. However, there simply is not enough room in business for lots of hand-holding. We choose to do it because we do not answer to stock-holders, we answer only to our community. But it costs a lot of money to educate our customers. This is why we work so hard up front to sell the right stove, and why we don't discount our prices. I also believe VC, in fact all manufacturers, should provide more help to the end consumer, especially when the customer cannot get satisfactory service from the local dealership. But I don't think they've accepted this premise yet. Old ways are hard to shed. Corporations are notoriously slow to adapt.

Personally, I find the VC manuals to be among the best in the industry. There's lots of good stuff in there. Could they provide more? Yes, they could. But they are not required to do so and the majority of users do not need more explanation. VC expects the dealerships to supplement the information provided by them. If your dealership lacks knowledge it's hard to get what you need. Perhaps they could put together a traveling troupe of factory technicians to travel the country and schedule seminars for the public, sponsored and hosted by the dealerships. I think this would be a fantastic experience. But who's going to pay for it? How much more will the consumer pay for this education? I think you see my point. Some people will pay, some won't. VC believes that the dealerships should provide this education and they provide technical training at a very reasonable cost to the dealerships. The consumer pays for the training when they buy their stove, if the dealer is a technical service center, as we are. If they are a discounter, you pay after the sale, either with frustration or by hiring a competent technician from out of your area, or both. VC has basically said, "hey, if they don't like it they can buy something else".


----------



## Gooserider (Nov 8, 2007)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> I guess there is something to be said for "dumbing down" a stove so that it works in most situations. This has always been an example set by the auto industry - notice that you can get into almost any car made, and operate it immediately! VC has always been about engineering and the founder (long gone) was all about quality. But one thing they never did was to follow the crowd as far as stove design....and, who knows, maybe they should have!
> 
> I really doubt that the basic premise is flawed - I used an Acclaim for years and it worked very well. But perhaps what is flawed is the tuning of the system so "tightly" in an attempt to get "bragging rights" for low GPH numbers. That is just a guess, of course. I spoke to two different 30 year Hearth industry veterans who told me this might be the case. One said that the reason the Encore NC has such low numbers is that VC tested it with the max. burn at 27,000 BTU. If they tested with the max burn at a higher number (35K, for instance) the GPH would have been much higher.
> 
> ...



The only problem I have with the notion of a turn damper (I have to admit that I *DON'T* like the idea of a Barometric on a woodstove - I'm not crazy about them on anything) is that IMHO it should be the absolutely LAST resort, rather than a first reflex to install one.  I especially think this should be an approach used only after every other possibility has been checked out if the stack setup isn't such as to really suggest one is needed.  A 15' flue seems unlikely to me to pull excessively no matter HOW well lined / insulated / turbocharged it might be...

I seem to recall several threads where a poster was complaining about seeming overdrafts, and some folks immediately started talking dampers.  Others suggested holding off on the damper, and doing a really thorough check for air leaks - door gaskets, ash pans, cast iron seams, pipe joints, etc.  Sure enough leaks were found, and once fixed the stove started operating properly, WITHOUT adding a damper.

IMHO a Damper should be viewed as what one does AFTER verifying that the stove is sealing up properly so that the only air entering the stove is going through the primary and secondary controlled air openings, and it's still being a problem.  Putting a damper on before that time may well be treating the symptom, and hiding other more vital problems.

Personal experience - As all should know, I just installed a lightly used Encore 2550 CAT stove that I purchased from Elk.  (In fact I just got my final inspections signed off about 20 minutes ago, though I've been burning a couple of days now)  I made the assumption that since everything looked OK on the door gaskets and Elk said it was in good shape, that it was.  First break in fire was no problem though the stove wanted to burn hot, and I ended up kicking in the cat, but the next long burn overnight fire seemed to keep wanting to go nuclear - including 2-3 hours after loading, with the cat engaged, and air turned OFF I noticed the thermometer was showing 900* on the griddle, and the hood over the cat was glowing red through the window.  Not being much else I could do, I let it burn.  I have a mostly inside, 25' tall chimney, w/ 6" flex liner - the stove rear exits into a "T" and goes straight up the liner - a textbook seeming case for needing a damper.  Instead I went over the doors and gaskets.  I found that the hinge side of one of the front doors, and the bottom edge of the ash door weren't sealing.  I replaced the gasket on the front door, and tweaked the hinge adjustment on the ash door (and found it's a bit tricky to get it closed properly).  Now all my gaskets are tight, and the stove is giving me nice consistent burns of 10-12+ hours on a full load, at a 400-600* griddle temperature.  I may still add a damper in order to increase the range spread on the control, but I won't be hiding the other problems the way I would have if I'd been reaching for it as my first  solution.

Gooserider


----------



## BurningIsLove (Nov 8, 2007)

> Personally, I find the VC manuals to be among the best in the industry. There's lots of good stuff in there.



I think we're reading two different manuals.  Yes, it's better than a lot of manuals out there.  But a lot of fluff is still just fluff.  The majority of the 'how to operate the stove' focuses on telling the owner to use hardwood and to make sure it's not rained on.  Duh.  There is a decent section on coal depth for high efficiency burning, but it still basically says in the end "set the air control to whatever works for your stove".  Again, duh.  These are all Burning 101 topics, virtually nothing specific on using the Everburn system properly, or troubleshooting if it doesn't work.




> VC has basically said, "hey, if they don't like it they can buy something else".



Now that's customer focus for ya.  If they didn't have the name brand recognition or get the additional business of being a stove manufacturer that is based & builds in the US, I can't see how they will stay in business for the long run.  Charging a premium price for an unproven system which not a single owner on this forum has endorsed, at some point VC needs to step up.


----------



## seaken (Nov 8, 2007)

BurningIsLove said:
			
		

> > Personally, I find the VC manuals to be among the best in the industry. There's lots of good stuff in there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I suppose it comes down to perspective. I turn down a lot business too. Some would say that's nuts and that I won't last. But I would rather work with people who understand our philosophy fairly quickly. I'm not going to work too hard to convert someone. That will anger some prospects I suppose. But I'm happy to stay a small anonymous company and don't really want to be all things to everyone.

I disagree that this is an unproven system. It has been proven for many years. But, as I said, it's not for everyone. For the record, this forum is a very small slice of the marketplace. I know we like to think we have a bigger voice, and this is a very good place to hang out and talk and share opinions. But the proofs do not come from here. It is only a small part of the whole.

Take a look at Morso's manuals if you want an example of a poor owners manual. Yes, VC does assume a lot. But that has always been their way. They assume the owner will work out a lot of the details themselves. Maybe this will end up killing them in the end. Who knows? But I rather like this approach. I hate it when I have to show someone three times which way the air control goes or what the difference between seasoned wood and rotten wood is. Some folks are just better suited to an oil furnace. Now, if this angers someone, and they are upset that I won't come over for free for a third time, then I think this is where there is room for others in our marketplace who are more inclined to give away their time to do it for them. There is room for several types of businesses and philosophies. Many consumers seem to  think that any company who does not agree with their philosophy is doomed to failure. I focus on my customers, but I choose them carefully, and I let them go when I realize I can't please them.


----------



## webbie (Nov 8, 2007)

Hearth.com would have less business if manufacturers actually wrote "operations" guides.

Sean, good way of putting it as per stoves.....problem is, as you allude to, that VC ended up with so much distribution that the day of the VC dealer being the "elite educated" one is long past. So stoves are often sold without all those warnings. You or I may prefer cast iron, but some of that is due to the fact the we can DIY repairs and (perhaps) get the parts cheap! A large percentage of customers would be turned off if I sold a stove and said "5 year warranty, but it will cost you $750 to rebuild it in sometime in year 5-8". In fact, I think most customers expect only minor repairs. But, the gist of your post I agree with - there is an arse for every seat! I like the Mercedes analogy..having bought a new one once (I don't think I will do that again). Great car, I mean the user-experience was tremendous! But the head gasket blew at 25K, and it was in the shop every couple of weeks for some little thing. We sold it for 10K (after paying 30K), and the buyer was very happy - I think the kinks were out of it.

Fact is that most products....cars included, are extremely reliable these days. Computers too!

Perhaps the solution is extended warranties available optionally. I have found that gives a good idea of reliability - for instance, the extended warranty on a notebook computer is often much higher than on a desktop....meaning it breaks more, and costs more to fix. 

As to the damper, if you can give another accurate way to make certain that the draft of a chimney remains even over the course of all burns and conditions - I'm all ears. But I have found that chimneys tend to feed on themselves (like fire) and the hotter they get, the better they draft, and then the hotter they get, and the draft gets stronger, etc. - that is what a baro fixes and one of the reasons it is used with coal burners. Otherwise, many coal stoves would melt.....of course there are other reasons for them.

Again, my take came from a scientist at Corning and also is a result of having installed many of these (both) dampers over the years. One installer I know used rocks instead - placed in an elbow - to retard draft!


----------



## elkimmeg (Nov 8, 2007)

Trader when the head of engineering VC posted here he he told you, your burning practices were incorrect and edged towards over firing. So if you stove is falling apart you were advised

 #1 culprit for over firing is the use of the ash door to blast furnace a fire The rapid heat will cause thermal shock to the metals. The Manual clearly states not to opperate the stove with the ash pan door open.  The second culprit is the seal of the ash pan door  either ash getting into the gasket the gasket needs replacing or the latch needs adjustment .

 Another possibility is the ash pan door open get bumped into and the hinge pin gets knocked out of whack.

 What ever happened to draft testing before installing a stove or using draft testing to trouble shoot.

Maybe these stoves are not for all users, but for that matter so are autos. Did you ever hear of accidents?  Very accident someone involved was not paying attention or not operating the car safely. You know some should not be allowed on the road or behind the wheel.  It is possible some should not own stoves for the same reason. I have owned quite a few stoves over the past 35 years and own models that are being questioned here. How is It I never have the problems other have? Assuming the same stoves then what is the difference? contrary my stoves preform up and exceed my expectations.  If it isn't the stoves then it must be the installation and or the opperator.

Note the complaints are coming from people relatively new to wood burning, perhaps it takes time to prefect the proccess, perhaps they have less than ideal draft sand venting systems

 perhaps we need to educate them more or everbody go out and purchase a Droit  Note people like BB figured out how to run a very draft sensitive effecient EPA stove in no time He knew how to recognize performance glitches and knew and learned the stove quirks and limitations.  And he did not have a dealer to complain to

 Even goose figured it out quickly and solved his problems because some of us helped other in similar situations. But Goose has been burning for years  My suggestion if you want a Driot then buy one  No sense purchasing a Corvette when a GEO metro gets you there


----------



## seaken (Nov 8, 2007)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> A large percentage of customers would be turned off if I sold a stove and said "5 year warranty, but it will cost you $750 to rebuild it in sometime in year 5-8". In fact, I think most customers expect only minor repairs.



True. But I give them a choice. I am not a VC loyalist. I know that what VC offers is not going to work for every customer. I educate them on the differences and I ask them to make a decision. If they want that shiny red stove they need to know what to expect. If they don't want to deal with that I sell them a Morso (black only, no catalytic options) or a Travis (Lopi or Avalon, simple steel box stoves, simple to operate and cheaper to maintain).

I think many people are unrealistic in their expectations. This is FIRE we're talking about. The same fire that caused your head gasket to weaken. But unlike our auto's, we are spending only $1000 to $3000. To expect a wood stove to perform like a $10,000 furnace, or a $40,000 car, is unrealistic. I educate people on the real costs of the wood stove, including the cost of repair and maintenance. If my prospect cannot afford those costs they find their solution elsewhere. 

I maintain that dealers should be more careful who they sell to. If all they are going to do is sell product they can expect more unhappy customers. If they prefer the least amount of trouble with wood stove customers they need to sell simpler stoves or attract higher paying customers who will appreciate the value of their more expensive products. Simple is hard to do in our business and is mostly controlled by the big box outlets or direct marketing. We choose to focus on the high end stuff and be prepared to educate the user on it's value.


----------



## BrotherBart (Nov 8, 2007)

elk: "perhaps we need to educate them more or everbody go out and purchase a Droit Note people like BB figured out how to run a very draft sensitive effecient EPA stove in no time He knew how to recognize performance glitches and knew and learned the stove quirks and limitations.  And he did not have a dealer to complain to"

Thanks for the compliment elk but I am not sure Mike would agree with ya. In fact the guys at ESW might be getting a king sized laugh from that.

The fact is that 99.999 percent of people that buy new wood stoves aren't the performance junkies that we hearth.com members are. They want to buy a nice looking stove/insert and burn a nice looking fire that puts some heat in their house. They aren't going to go on a quest for the ultimate burn and they aren't going to get excited about a little smoke coming out of the chimney. They aren't fogging up the neighborhood burning decent wood in any stove they can buy today.

Possibly some of the stuff people read here gets them into a bind and causes some of the problems with their stoves. I don't know. I think the happy ones are the ones that don't know what the hell secondary burn and overnight fires are and could care less. They like the fact that their new stove gives a nice view of the fire and seems to burn a real long time on less wood than their fireplace did. I would bet that many people with Everburn stoves will never know what the "Everburn rumble is" and are probably better off for it. And if you look at most manuals, those are the folks they are written for. 

I know that I spend way too much time fooling with the 30-NC when it does just fine when I get tied up and don't have time to and just put some wood in it, damp it down and don't hang around for pretty blue flames up top or go outside to see it it smoking. I bet the Everburns do just fine the same way.


----------



## tradergordo (Nov 8, 2007)

I can understand why people assume an overfiring problem with the original poster in this thread (although he didn't think he was overfiring and the temps he reported didn't seem excessively high).  But I don't know why everyone is assuming that everyone with a problem is overfiring.  My stove isn't overfiring (nor is it falling apart) in fact the best way to get the everburn to work is by getting the temps up, which can either be done by waiting a long time, or by cracking the ash door for a few minutes.  I have excellent draft, ideal installation with straight up, inside the room flue.  I have checked all door gaskets with dollar bill, all the way around.  But again, draft problem and overfiring are not the issue.  The problem is that secondary combustion simply doesn't happen at all or it stalls shortly after dampering down - as "BurningIsLove" mentioned.  If we all had excessive draft or leaks I would expect it to actually NOT stall so often.  

Seaken - you seem to suggest that the people having problems getting consistent clean burns with their VC everburn stoves need a dumbed down stove?  I don't think this stove is particularly complicated, it has two controls, an air control, and a damper.  What's the big deal?  I think I'm smart enough to use this stove, but I've tried everything, always giving VC the benefit of the doubt until now. 

I don't really have a problem with the manual - it tells you how to get the everburn system to work:  "Once the fire is burning steadily, continue
adding fuel until a thick bed has been established on the grate. The bed should be about 2” (50mm) deep and should cover the throat opening into the secondary combustion chamber that is located in the lower center fireback."

The problem is, how often (what percentage of a typical burn cycle) do you have a well established, 2 inch deep, red hot coal bed covering nearly the entire bottom of the stove and the throat opening to the back?  I only burn seasoned hardwood, and I still have to load the stove at least three times just to get these conditions and if I'm not using wood with excellent coaling properties (oak or locust) it just doesn't work consistently.  If I start burning at say 6PM like I did last night, there is no way I will reach the proper conditions to engage the damper for a clean burn before going to bed.  I think the premise is flawed.  And I can't believe you guys that DON'T own one of these stoves think every poster on this forum that DOES own one of these stoves just doesn't know how to operate it.  And while this is my first stove, several of the people that posted with problems have been burning for decades so I don't think you can write this off as just dumb users.  Plus I am very persistent and mechanically inclined, I can fix almost anything, and I love to tinker.  If I can't get this stove to operate well then I doubt very many people will be able to unless I just happen to be the unlucky owner of a defective stove (along with essentially every other owner of this stove who has posted in this forum).

p.s.  Where exactly did someone from VC engineering say my "burning practices were incorrect"???  I'd love to review that post if it in fact exists.


----------



## BurningIsLove (Nov 8, 2007)

When most threads reach 6 pages, they have usually wandered off the original topic, and I'll plead guilty for muddying the waters/ thread hijacking.

There are two very different issues on this thread.  The original was evident and large scale damage to the stove from overfiring (ash pan door open/not seated properly?), damage incurred during maintenance (hitting firebrick/refractory material with brushes?), installation ramifications (rainwater hitting hot reburner chamber?), etc. etc.

The second issue is getting the advertised performance out of a high end stove.  Mine (and I think tradergordos unless I missed something), have no damage excepting normal wear & tear like replacing gaskets and bear no resemblance to the posted pictures of the original thread.  I consider myself a reasonably experienced wood stove burner having used them on/off (mostly on) for 25 years.  I have had NO problems getting clean, efficient, advertised performance out of other stoves in the same class (Lopi, Russo, and even other VC's like the Encore).  This is the ONLY stove I've had a problem with.  

I realize that the Hearth forum is a small percentage of of total users and it's not entirely fair to make a general judgement on the entire Everburn line based on the small sampling of users.  But you have to admit, not a single owner of this stove on the forum has stepped up to endorse the design, and this is not a shy crowd.  ABsolutely, it heats nearly 3500sq feet of my house effectively, great viewing, looks attractive, side loading is a great option, I could go on & on about what I like about it.  

But as you say, we are the users who strive to reach that optimal performance of clean emmissions & long burn times.  That is WHY we purchased the Cadillac vs. the Chevy Nova of stoves.  And it's frustrating that when you've owned/used other 'cadillacs' in the past, that the new 'cadillac' is a smoke dragon and repeatedly 'stalls at the intersection'.  I've driven Ford vehicles since the day I got my license, been happy with every one, driven each one well past 200k/300k miles... but then one day my new Explorer caught fire and exploded on the highway.  Ford later issued a recall saying it was a design flaw.


----------



## tradergordo (Nov 8, 2007)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> I know that I spend way too much time fooling with the 30-NC when it does just fine when I get tied up and don't have time to and just put some wood in it, damp it down and don't hang around for pretty blue flames up top or go outside to see it it smoking. I bet the Everburns do just fine the same way.



I agree with what you said.  I'm one of the few looking for "the best possible burn".  I never said I couldn't heat my house with my stove. I never said it didn't create pretty looking fires and burn a lot longer than a fireplace.  I heated with nothing but wood all of last year.  I want more than just heat.  I want clean burns.  I know what a clean burn looks like (or doesn't look like as the case may be).  I know that this stove only burns clean when "everburn" is working (AKA secondary combustion) and its very obvious when everyburn is working because you can hear it (and of course if you go outside, you can also see it).  If I have to wait 4-5 hours to get the conditions required for everburn, that means I'm smokin' up the neighborhood for 4-5 hours, that isn't good, especially when other stoves can burn clean in a tiny fraction of that time, and these other stoves don't require you to fiddle around with a 2000 degree coal bed, moving ash away from back and replacing with fresh hot coals.  Not sure why anybody thought this was a superior way to achive secondary combustion after the initial prototypes were built and used under real world conditions.


----------



## tradergordo (Nov 8, 2007)

This is EXACTLY how I feel.  And its good to hear this from an experienced burner like you so I know I'm not just crazy (or stupid).
So the question is, what do we do about it?  What is the logical next step?



			
				BurningIsLove said:
			
		

> The second issue is getting the advertised performance out of a high end stove.  Mine (and I think tradergordos unless I missed something), have no damage excepting normal wear & tear like replacing gaskets and bear no resemblance to the posted pictures of the original thread.  I consider myself a reasonably experienced wood stove burner having used them on/off (mostly on) for 25 years.  I have had NO problems getting clean, efficient, advertised performance out of other stoves in the same class (Lopi, Russo, and even other VC's like the Encore).  This is the ONLY stove I've had a problem with.
> 
> I realize that the Hearth forum is a small percentage of of total users and it's not entirely fair to make a general judgement on the entire Everburn line based on the small sampling of users.  But you have to admit, not a single owner of this stove on the forum has stepped up to endorse the design, and this is not a shy crowd.  ABsolutely, it heats nearly 3500sq feet of my house effectively, great viewing, looks attractive, side loading is a great option, I could go on & on about what I like about it.
> 
> But as you say, we are the users who strive to reach that optimal performance of clean emmissions & long burn times.  That is WHY we purchased the Cadillac vs. the Chevy Nova of stoves.  And it's frustrating that when you've owned/used other 'cadillacs' in the past, that the new 'cadillac' is a smoke dragon and repeatedly 'stalls at the intersection'.  I've driven Ford vehicles since the day I got my license, been happy with every one, driven each one well past 200k/300k miles... but then one day my new Explorer caught fire and exploded on the highway.  Ford later issued a recall saying it was a design flaw.


----------



## elkimmeg (Nov 8, 2007)

At best in any non cat stove secondary burning occurs 30% of the time.  As the fire box temps fluctuate, smoke particles only burn above 1000 degrees. After secondary burning it on to the next stage. Where little if any smoke is produced. so no smoke (  no fuel) to burn.  There is only a certain stage of the burn time it occurs, unless you have something to extend it like a cat, that can ignite all the way down to 380 firebox temps.  In a  way, secondary burn is over, while a real controlled heat producing state emerges . Really that is the part of the fire we want to extend the longest. also the cleanest part of the burn cycle.  That does not mean the stove is not functioning correctly, without a fire works display. The Thermometer  tells the story
  When my cat fires, the fire dies down after engagement and what happens is a small flame a flicker possibly a gas off but a consistent red glow.  No fire works, a constant red heat producing glow. that last for hours.  I would love to trade with you trader. so that both had a chance with each other stove, to work out situations compare notes


----------



## BrotherBart (Nov 8, 2007)

tradergordo said:
			
		

> Not sure why anybody thought this was a superior way to achive secondary combustion after the initial prototypes were built and used under real world conditions.



I agree. I ran the other way summer before last when I saw the same technology in the Harman Exception line. It looked a tad fragile and too much of a departure from conventional cat and non-cat stoves for me. I couldn't figure out why if ya wanted a stove that burned like a cat stove they didn't just sell a cat stove.

I know it has to be frustrating gordo. What I do know is that no manufacturer is going to admit a design/reliability problem. Too much liability involved. And with dealers like Sean reporting a majority of satisfied owners VC probably really believes that it is the operator. And don't go thinking that I am saying it is. I am just saying that is what they probably believe.


----------



## BrotherBart (Nov 8, 2007)

elkimmeg said:
			
		

> At best in any non cat stove secondary burning occures 30% of the time as the fire box temps fluctuated smoke particles only burn above 1000 degrees after secondary burning it on th the next stage where little if any smoke is produced so no smoke ( fuel) to burn there is only a certain stage of the burn time it occurs unless you have some to extend it lik a cat that can ignite all the way down to 380 firebox temps In a  way secondary burn is over while a real controlled heat producing state emerges . Really that is the part of the fire we want to extend the longest also the cleanest part of the burn cycle that does not mean the stove is not functioning correctly without a fire works display the Thermometer  tell the story
> My cat fires the fire dies down after engagement and what happens id a small flame a flicker possibly a gas off but a consistent red glow  no fire works a constant red heat producing glow that last for hours.  I would love to trade with you trader so that both had a chance with each other stove to work out situations compare notes



Not true Elk. You need to get ya a non-cat to burn for a while. While it is true that the secondary burn light show that everybody loves to see blowing fire in front of the tubes up top on most non-cats is only during the gasification stage of the burn it continues on through the burn until the coal stage just like with a cat stove. The difference is that with a non-cat the burn taking place in the cat chamber takes place between the top of the wood and the stove baffle. When a non-cat is doing its thing there is a pillow of blue fire on top of the wood for hours that looks like natural gas burning. 

Gases burning at 1,000 degrees are gases burning at 1,000 degrees. Whether you can see it happen in a non-cat or not see it happen in a cat the same thing is happening.

Now back to the thread. The Everburns are for all intents and purposes blow-down gasifiers. Secondary combustion is taking place in the Everburn chamber just like the gasifier boilers. You aren't going to see the secondary burn because it is taking place in the Everburn chamber. Like it does in the cat chamber on a cat stove. Something they need to add to the Everburn stoves is a chamber thermo like the cat stoves have so you know when it lights off.


----------



## Gunner (Nov 9, 2007)

Trader no wonder you waited so long to light your first fire.  Sounds like this type of stove would only work well in 24/7 burning... needing a constant coal bed.  Hard to light a once a day chill chaser in the shoulder season.

Your standard cat or non cat you can light a top down fire in a stone cold stove close the door and be burning clean in less than 30min.

The fact that you need to burn for a couple of hours and get a 2" coal bed for this type of stove to burn clean is IMO a major design flaw. 

My 2 cents....


----------



## swestall (Nov 9, 2007)

Woah....that stuff, the refractory fountain assembly, is very delicate to begin with: on a new stove out of the crate. It is the same refractory package they introduced with the initial CAT stoves. (Encore). New, it has about the same texture as that stuff they used to make old ceiling tiles from: that is soft and weak. It does not take much effort at all to crack or penetrate it. It is also not very hard to replace: if you can take the stove apart. Enough said....just replace it. My bigger issue is that the Everburn seems to  be difficult at best. The problem here is we have a company that can't see, "out of the box" if you will pardon the expression. And, after all, who wants to make a stove that will last a lifetime: how would you keep selling them over and over. Having said that, I'm going back to see if I can get this thing to fire off for the night.


----------



## tradergordo (Nov 9, 2007)

Coaster, I wrote that initial review after just a couple weeks using the stove (and this is made clear in the review).  I also describe the very first time I even got the secondary burn to work (what I called "going thermo-nuclear") so the review was written the day after the stove burned as its supposed to for the first time which also means it hadn't been burning as it was supposed to every day before that.  I just updated that review a little to reflect the full year's experience.  When I said it was working better than I could have imagined - what I meant was that it was heating my house better than I expected - at that time, I really wasn't paying attention to emissions although I did mention how excited I was that when it was "everburning" there was absolutely no smoke coming out of the stack.  If I could get those results all the time, I'd be a very happy camper...

Also in the "official" review you linked to, I said "Dislikes: Requires more futzing around to get the efficient burns (hot bed of coals required before closing bypass damper) compared to other non-cat stoves" that was an original comment, not a revision, so even back then (a year ago) I saw the problems but was still optimistic that I could figure out how to work around them.  Unfortunately after a full year of use, I never did figure out how to overcome its shortcomings.


			
				Coaster said:
			
		

> This has been an interesting thread.  The stove went from being reviewed as really good to being crap all within one year.
> 
> From:   https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/4188/


----------



## tradergordo (Nov 9, 2007)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Something they need to add to the Everburn stoves is a chamber thermo like the cat stoves have so you know when it lights off.



You must not know about the infamous "everburn rumble"  
There is no need for a burn chamber thermometer, its pretty obvious when you are getting secondary combustion on this stove.  I even posted a video of this in the main review thread but its a huge file that takes a long time to download.  That video is a great example of "the perfect burn" with this stove.  I never said it was impossible, its just difficult (a lot more work than other stoves).  In the video you can also see the fire go from jumping flames to the dull red glow just like Elk described with his cat stove.  You can also hear the infamous everburn rumble for yourself.

quote author="tradergordo" date="1172284041"]This is my video demonstration of everburn (its a huge file, you should right click the link and "save target as" to download it, then play it).

EverburnDemo.avi
This also shows the characteristics of the burn - you can see how the fire looks with the damper open, and how it looks about 20 seconds after closing the bypass to activate the everburn secondary combustion.  What I should have added is what it looked like 15-20 minutes later with the primary air completely cut off.  The flue temps were stable at about 800 degrees F, the slight rumble was still going, and there were basically no flames in the firebox - just nicely glowing orange coals.  This is the beauty of “horizontal combustion” - you get nice hot fires that last as long as possible without the wood on top being consumed too quickly, all with little to no particulate emissions.  A snapshot from an hour or two later would show the everburn still going, with stack temps maybe down to 700, same old glowing fire with little to no flames - keeping the house warm all night long.

Finally, I just got done going though all the different "everburn" threads, I missed most of the discussions when they happened.  One common theme I see is what I think is people closing the bypass too soon.  It took me a while to figure this out on my own (especially because there is no guidance, as far as temps go, in the user manual).  Even in my original review - you can tell I had only just then experienced my first real correct burn (i.e. thermonuclear).  I'm pretty convinced now that to get a good efficient burn, you must take it up to 1000 F internal probe flue temp before closing the bypass (all of my past comments about coals around the throat opening still apply as well though).  If you do the coal thing, and the 1000 degree thing, it pretty much works 100% of the time - again, it took me quite some time to figure this out, but now that I have, I'm getting better performance but it still requires a lot of futzing around![/quote]


----------



## BrotherBart (Nov 9, 2007)

tradergordo said:
			
		

> BrotherBart said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Heard all about the rumble in your posts last season. What would be good to know is when the chamber is hot enough to be ready to rumble.


----------



## elkimmeg (Nov 9, 2007)

I asked Vc to look at the post and here is there response to Trader


"Vermont Casting/DutchWest Stoves has thousands of Everburn units in the field with very few warranty issues.  It does sound like your stove is burning hot.  I would suggest conducting the “dollar bill” test on the door and ash door gaskets.  Pinch a dollar bill between the door and the gasket, close the door completely and pull the dollar bill out. The dollar bill should resist being pulled out but come out without tearing. Try this every few inches all the way around each of the doors. If you find lose gasket seals the door should be adjusted.  You can do this by adjusting the handle pawl or the hinge pins or both.  If you are not comfortable adjusting the doors call your dealer and have him/her adjust the doors. It is very unlikely that the gasketed joint assembly found on Everburn units is leaking. Vermont Castings leak test 100% of their stoves at final assemble. Another place to look would be the primary flap.  Open both doors and reach a finger up between the primary air manifold and the inside of the front of the stove.  Open and close the primary air lever.  You will feel the flap opening and closing.  When the flap is closed it should lie flat on the manifold with no gaps.  It is possible for a piece of debris to keep it from closing completely. Don’t hesitate to call the customer service number for help.  Vermont Castings is very concerned about satisfaction of their customers.

 Second response to the poster burning his stove in his basement

"first thing that jumps out in the first email is the homeowner
has a Dutchwest Non-cat Large that he is using to heat a 1200 sq ft
house from the basement....way over-sized as far as stove to volume to
heat and as a result causing all kinds of over-firing...the refractory
is totally covered under warranty, so get it turned in and replaced...dt "


----------



## tradergordo (Nov 9, 2007)

You hit the nail on the head, this stove was MADE to run 24/7.  As long as you have a continuous, thick red hot coal bed, you are good.  Unfortunately in milder temps you are almost never good.  I'll be less cranky when I'm burning 24/7 again.  But like you said, why would anyone choose this model when there are others that work well anytime, without forcing you to futz around with the coals all the time?  At this point, I'd be ecstatic if I could burn clean 30 minutes after starting a new fire.  I just don't see how or why this design has any particular advantage.




			
				Gunner said:
			
		

> Trader no wonder you waited so long to light your first fire.  Sounds like this type of stove would only work well in 24/7 burning... needing a constant coal bed.  Hard to light a once a day chill chaser in the shoulder season.
> 
> Your standard cat or non cat you can light a top down fire in a stone cold stove close the door and be burning clean in less than 30min.
> 
> ...


----------



## webbie (Nov 9, 2007)

Based on traders input, let me make a couple guesses.

The EB technology is simply a refined downdraft method of burning - it has been around in one form or another for hundreds of years, with the Riteway and other models bringing it back in the 1970's.

Wood gasifiers like the TARM 2000 use similar technology, but since it is fan forced and on "full" all of the time, the problems with various burn rates and initial heating up do not occur....that is, most people use these central heaters 24/7.

OK, so the first real space heater use of this (other than some lesser known models) was the Resolute Acclaim - about 1988. This EB system worked pretty well for the following reason. The firebox was small, and the grate was heavily sloped from the front to the rear of the stove. This meant that a relatively small amount of hot coals would fully "charge" the downdraft system and get it working. With that model, it may have taken two hours or less to get it going EB from a cold start, and there was no problem at all keeping it going...again, because of the concentrated coals which always built up against the rear.

Now we have models using similar technology that have vastly larger fire boxes and flat grates and/or MUCH larger areas of coals which must be built up in order to have constant EB. 

Moral of particular story may be that EB stoves need to be carefully sized and may be more for the full time wood burner than for the evening and weekend crowd. 

Just a guess, of course. Other (updraft) non-cats are built around the basic idea that heat rises, therefore it makes sense they will light off much sooner. VC would not make an updraft stove like this mostly because they always want to offer top loading (VC line) - That virtually does away with any possibility of using the upper part of the stove for secondary combustion.

All my guesses, of course.


----------



## tradergordo (Nov 9, 2007)

Elk - not sure what "the post" refers to, but you sound like you got some new info but this is a quote you posted last winter, and I'm pretty sure the VC guy was not directing his comments at me or BurningisLove, and he really didn't offer ANY insight into the performance problems we've been discussing here.



			
				elkimmeg said:
			
		

> I asked Vc to look at the post and here is there response to Trader
> 
> 
> "Vermont Casting/DutchWest Stoves has thousands of Everburn units in the field with very few warranty issues.  It does sound like your stove is burning hot.  I would suggest conducting the “dollar bill” test on the door and ash door gaskets.  Pinch a dollar bill between the door and the gasket, close the door completely and pull the dollar bill out. The dollar bill should resist being pulled out but come out without tearing. Try this every few inches all the way around each of the doors. If you find lose gasket seals the door should be adjusted.  You can do this by adjusting the handle pawl or the hinge pins or both.  If you are not comfortable adjusting the doors call your dealer and have him/her adjust the doors. It is very unlikely that the gasketed joint assembly found on Everburn units is leaking. Vermont Castings leak test 100% of their stoves at final assemble. Another place to look would be the primary flap.  Open both doors and reach a finger up between the primary air manifold and the inside of the front of the stove.  Open and close the primary air lever.  You will feel the flap opening and closing.  When the flap is closed it should lie flat on the manifold with no gaps.  It is possible for a piece of debris to keep it from closing completely. Don’t hesitate to call the customer service number for help.  Vermont Castings is very concerned about satisfaction of their customers.
> ...


----------



## tradergordo (Nov 9, 2007)

I think these are good insights.  But you CAN do top loading and burn tubes on top, the Isle Royale (quadrafire) does this, a friend of mine has that stove.  And I still fail to see why the EB design is good for anyone including a full time burner when other designs achive clean burn without the fuss (from what I read anyway, one day I'd love to see this firsthand).

But non-the-less since I'm such a cheap-skate, I know I'm not going to get another stove.  So I'll do whatever the heck it takes to make this stove work for me (unless someone offers to buy it off me for what I paid which isn't going to happen).  Pretty soon you'll see my new and improved, hope I don't burn the house down, first ever, catalytic non-cat Dutchwest    I also like the idea of adding a modified sloping to the burnchamber coal catcher (like a triangular hunk of metal or firebrick).  Just got a new 175 Amp MIG welder, time to get busy.  Haha.






			
				Webmaster said:
			
		

> Based on traders input, let me make a couple guesses.
> 
> The EB technology is simply a refined downdraft method of burning - it has been around in one form or another for hundreds of years, with the Riteway and other models bringing it back in the 1970's.
> 
> ...


----------



## elkimmeg (Nov 9, 2007)

I may have encourage some to purchase VC products but always stuck to the cat models the ones I burn and have experience using I have never burnt the Everburn stoves .If Vc wants to get on to me to run it threw the paces I would be honest and happy to do so and report here my experiences Note there are stove I will not recommend VC makes  this everburn is not only a Vc product but the same burn technology in the Lopi Leyden and Harman oakwood.


----------



## begreen (Nov 9, 2007)

Is the refractory placement and shielding different in the Leyden or Oakwood?


----------



## TMonter (Nov 9, 2007)

> I am leaning towards up grading to a “better” stove.  I don’t want to go through this again.  I’m thinking about a Quadra Fire Isle Royale.



If you do lean towards the Quad Larry, I have nothing but good to say about them and their customer service. I had a stress crack in a secondary manifold of my 3100i and the stove was replaced three weeks later, no questions asked (other than taking the serial number sticker off).

I like Quad's simple designs, with a no-nonsense approach to combustion. I also like the fact that the stove can be disassembled and cleaned in less than 20 minutes with minimal tools.


----------



## elkimmeg (Nov 9, 2007)

Well coaster many here have degree higher than mine BS  in History  minor in earth Science MS education. 
 But world experience is hard to equate I happen to feel I am good at solving problems and can think outside the box when not regulated by codes
 As a Code official I feel limited at time to really voice opinions but hold a rigid line. Part of that is being consistent. One can not enforce a code one day and ignore it the next.

My stoves are used I did not opperate them for much their existences I have a 1988 Interpid (cat) that interior refractory package was never replaced no warped plates, or any thing like these photos indicate in usage. The other stove is a 1999 Cat encore again the interior refractory package looks very good again nothing like the photos here.  After experiencing the Intrepid and my first cat my only impression was whow .. I too was told to stay away from Cat stoves and I believed the retailer. Too hard to opperate expensive replacement requires extra operations
 cat needs cleaning and on and on.  So one day during an inspection of a pellet stove here in a garage sits the Cat intrepid taken out of service The lady that owned ask me if I knew anyone that could use it So I took it. A few gaskets some refractory cement and time to fire it off. I was real concerned at first because it looked so small I gave away my plate steel stove to a needy family No way was this going to heat this area I made a mistake This chimney is a completely exterior block chimney and being told how draft sensitive cat stoves are Boy did I make a mistake
 Naturally I read the manual  as a guide for operations  I fired it up  It took a bit more kindling that my other stove but I got it going. I fed in some splits  then some more.

 Hey this is not so bad ,now will it throw some heat,I'm freezing in here The stove top temps climbed and I reached 500 then 600 I started cutting back air All the prior stoves need constant adjustment damper disengage the damper play with the air. constantly the damper caused the fire to almost go out so open it up again constant tinkering and monitoring.
 That how every stove operated up till now with this stove  

 Well back to the Intrepid time to engage the cat. For once the stove top heat did not  drop, it stayed constant the fire went down except for flickers but it glowed red an hour went by the same 550 stove top and I not touched the controls another hour the same 5 hours later it is still above 500 degrees the room temp a blamy 74, Golly gee this thing works I wondrr what it will do really loader How about 6 hours over 500 degrees and 7 hours above 400 8 hours below that and may need re kindling to revive it.l. I looking at the room thermometer and I in total disbelief
 This must be some fluke.  It turned out to be just the fluke that started to make me wonder. What if I could replace my 3 year Old Resolute Acclaim with a Cat Encore?

 Then I started wondering why so much negativity towards Cat combustors. This was by far the easiest stove I ever operated. What is so hard engaging a damper no different that my prior stoves  At first I wondered if the cat combustor was working I noticed a huge difference in the smoke volume or lack of smoke exiting my chimney it must be working. But this is the original Cat date stamped 1987 Still intact  I ordered the stove combustor replacement a warping $59 Not the hundreds I was told it would cost  Well it looked different more like a scrungy and it was not as thick.  Then I wondered about the $150 service call to replace it.  I remover the two phillips screws and replaced it in 5 minutes.  Actually probably easier than replacing light bulbs.

 Its been 3 years using this combustor and I have no complaints. Last Sunday watching the Colts Pats game I had to open 3 windiws I got the stove going and it heated the room that much  I have watched  3 supper bowls in tee shirts This by far is the easiest stove to opperate I've ever experienced It still amazes me that little stove  can preforms like it has I have made no further replacements  say a gasket or two No warped internal parts the refractory package is good.  It will be running again tonight.

 I did find a steal of a buy on a used Encore $500 only used two seasons.  sold my Resolute Acclaim and might have even pocked some money in the swap. The Encore too delivered that same results but more heat and longer burning.  8 hours is a reality Just as easy to run no more futzing and dutzing like all prior stoves. About as close to set and forget as it gets.

 I'm not saying these stoves one size fits all.  My approach is not by accident. All wood is cut split and seasoned 2 years prior to usage. I'm not suffering  using the " seasoned wood" delivered by the local wood man.  or wondering if the tree cut 6 months ago will be dry enough. I'm not suffering from rookie mistakes and also set realistic expectations.
 I look at it this way. My thermostat is set at 64 degrees. It is my job to provide heat without the furnace from kicking on.  All other prior stoves took constant attention to achieve that but failed once the outdoor temps reached 10 or below that furnace would cycle.  But again that is not bad.  That was the limits of realistic goals and even then the furnace still had long periods of cycling between ignition. My  second floor bedrooms are cooler I use a few extra blankets or two or the upstairs zone kicks in at 62.  using small box fans I can get my bedroom up to 68 before I close the door for the night.  this Encore was able to actually raise the then of that heating zone when the temps fell below 0 last winter. Never was I able to do that before 

I built this home planning.  to use wood stove. Planned a masive field stone center chimney with a separate 8/8 flue  I knew all the granite stone would absorb  heat and store it, releasing it for hours after the fire died down I figure in the 32 years here, wood heat has saved using close to 30,000 gal of oil


----------



## tradergordo (Nov 9, 2007)

As another point of reference.  I was discussing this issue with my friend yesterday, the guy I previously mentioned with the cheap-o steel box Drollet.  This is what he said:

"Just for your reference, my stove typically has no visual smoke from the pipe within 10 minutes from a cold start.  But for that I need smaller splits.  If it has a little heat in it ( a few red embers here and there) Large splits can reach the same smoke free burn in under 10 minutes.  Sometimes, it is smoke free within 1 minute.  Depends on the wood.  I can achieve secondary burn in 5-10 minutes from cold if I use a mix of wood sizes.  I love it's simple operation. " 

"My stove burns without visible smoke over a wide range of conditions.  And the secondary burn tubes don't need to have flame shooting out of them to have smoke free burning.  My dad clamps his stove down too tight all the time and it smokes horribly.  There are often big white clouds drifting through his yard and you can really smell it.  I would say that 97% of the time you can neither see smoke nor smell smoke from my stove when you are outside.  If you smell smoke in my yard, it is usually from one of the neighbors. "

Now if a cheap-o steel box (with lifetime warranty I might add) can achieve these results with such simple operation, producing big heat all the while, then why should anyone favor the so called "Cadillac" which requires much more babying, futzing with coals, and still doesn't produce clean burns anywhere near as often?  Because it looks better?


----------



## BrotherBart (Nov 9, 2007)

Coaster said:
			
		

> So, you see yourself in my comments?  I wonder why?



I have seen myself before in comments on gordo's website:

"The total cheapskate could buy the wood stove Lowe's sells (The Englander) which also has good EPA ratings but it's kind of ugly looking and has no side loading. Based on what was reported on fatwallet.com, they clearance these up to 75% off starting in February so some real bargains can be had. But if you pay full price its about the same cost as the stove I bought and not nearly as nice."

 :coolsmirk:


----------



## begreen (Nov 9, 2007)

closing thread, it's now a ramble.


----------

