# Water in basement floor after French drain install



## hydes2004 (Feb 20, 2018)

Hello,


I recently had a French drain installed on the interior perimeter walls of my basement, there is a sump pump in the far corner with the 3” pvc piped to it.  Prior to the install I’ve only had water in my basement a hand full of times.  Right now with the snow melting and warmer weather the water table is quite high.  Last night I went into the basement and noticed that there is dampness and some very small puddling of water where the new concrete meets the old concrete.  The sump pump has been running a fair amount and since the system is only a month old the pipes and wrapping holes are not clogged.  I’m wondering how to approach this issue with the contractor.  The entire reasoning behind installing this system was to prevent any type of water intrusion since we are going to be finish the basement level.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Feb 20, 2018)

You cant prevent intrusion with an INTERIOR system. This type of setup is used when it almost impossible to do the OUTSIDE of the wall usually on older homes. Now your just dealing with all the water that gets in because you don't have an outside drainage system. If you really want a DRY basement you have to do this from the OUTSIDE of the foundation wall. If that's not possible you already have the most common type of inside system, with all its flaws.


----------



## fbelec (Feb 21, 2018)

if it's a contractor like boston basement's they want to hear from you. they have a lot of word of mouth advertising. or not sure it's the same but busy dog


----------



## peakbagger (Feb 21, 2018)

Yes definitely contact the contractor. I do agree the interior solutions are inferior to an exterior solution but you cant cheat physics. The basement walls are warmer than the outside ground so when the ground around the house is frozen, the ground right up against the wall is not as heat from the basement leaks out. Water running on top of the frozen ground outside will find its way to the lowest point which is the basement floor.  If the soils around the house is graded properly sloped away from the foundation and the basement walls insulated, melt water will usually find its way around the house without running down the walls but if you are on slope its toug. 

The new drainage just intercepts it and runs it to the sump. In theory exterior drainage attempts to capture the water below the basement floor and preferable redirects it around the house to a lower point or to sump. Sounds to me like you need a bigger sump pump unless the existing one is clogged. I had house in midwest years ago and the land was almost flat with no where for the water to drain to in the spring. It has exterior drainage but during the spring melt, the pump was running close to constantly.


----------



## hydes2004 (Feb 21, 2018)

peakbagger said:


> Yes definitely contact the contractor. I do agree the interior solutions are inferior to an exterior solution but you cant cheat physics. The basement walls are warmer than the outside ground so when the ground around the house is frozen, the ground right up against the wall is not as heat from the basement leaks out. Water running on top of the frozen ground outside will find its way to the lowest point which is the basement floor.  If the soils around the house is graded properly sloped away from the foundation and the basement walls insulated, melt water will usually find its way around the house without running down the walls but if you are on slope its toug.
> 
> The new drainage just intercepts it and runs it to the sump. In theory exterior drainage attempts to capture the water below the basement floor and preferable redirects it around the house to a lower
> 
> ...



Thanks.  The sump pump is working just fine, there is no issue there.  I’m going to give him a call today.  I just don’t understand why water would be penetrating the surface if the pipe is in there..... 
	

		
			
		

		
	







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hydes2004 (Feb 21, 2018)

So that’s a picture of the drain prior to cement and the completed sump.  This is the water issue I am having 
	

		
			
		

		
	










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## peakbagger (Feb 21, 2018)

Tough to figure out what the pictures are of and what system was installed. The normal spring issue is water from the outside is running down the outside wall to the footing. If there is perimeter drain its usually located below the footing. The water running down the wall will pool on top of the footing and then run in through the wall. Normally with the systems I have seen is they install a gutter around the interior walls of the basement and then drill holes out through the wall horizontally out through the wall close down to the floor. Any water pressure on the outside will be relieved as it will flow through the newly drilled holes. There is a plastic piece that sticks up from the gutter and clips to the wall to cover the holes. 

There are numerous different systems on the market and it comes down to what system did the contractor install, did he know what he was doing and what sort of guarantee did he make?.


----------



## hydes2004 (Feb 21, 2018)

There is a 3” pvc pipe with holes in it pipes to the sump and the channel piece up against wall.  
	

		
			
		

		
	










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Husky (Feb 21, 2018)

The sump bulb could be set to high and is not kicking on soon enough allowing the water to rise to high before being pumped out of the basement.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Feb 21, 2018)

Possibly the drain pipes are not sloped uniformly. If you have a low spot water will collect there. hopefully its something else cuz  if that's the case the whole thing would have to be ripped up to fix it. Its going to be tough to finish that basement with all that moisture behind and under whatever your putting in. For flooring your going to have to go with the 2x2 raised subfloor panels with the plastic feet for a dry floor. Everything that is wet now will have to end up behind the walls you put up. Definitely do as much as you can to minimize it before you close it up.


----------



## hydes2004 (Feb 21, 2018)

Husky said:


> The sump bulb could be set to high and is not kicking on soon enough allowing the water to rise to high before being pumped out of the basement.



The sump pit water level is set to 12” and it never reaches the piping 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hydes2004 (Feb 21, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Possibly the drain pipes are not sloped uniformly. If you have a low spot water will collect there. hopefully its something else cuz  if that's the case the whole thing would have to be ripped up to fix it. Its going to be tough to finish that basement with all that moisture behind and under whatever your putting in. For flooring your going to have to go with the 2x2 raised subfloor panels with the plastic feet for a dry floor. Everything that is wet now will have to behind the walls you put up. Definitely do as much as you can to minimize it before you close it up.



That’s my guess.  It’s only wet on some spots.  I plan on putting delta fl for a vapor barrier on the floor and also on the walls 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sportbikerider78 (Feb 21, 2018)

There are A LOT of variables and weather is a pain to predict.  You can be a-ok one year and have devastation the next.  Are you in a rush?  Might make sense to observe what is happening for a few years to get some data.


----------



## blades (Feb 21, 2018)

chased that kind of thing for a few years at a home i owned. finally ended up having to go down the out side and install new perimeter piping and gravel as well as resealing the walls on the outside.This one was a rather extreme problem compound by an old septic system that had not been properly closed off when the home was switched to municipal sewer.  Septic system was working in reverse.


----------



## hydes2004 (Feb 21, 2018)

So I talked to the contractor.  He is coming by Friday to take a look.  He is going to cute back the new concrete and take a look at the drain.  Almost all of the new concrete is now wet 
	

		
			
		

		
	







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## semipro (Feb 21, 2018)

Until that new concrete around the pipe fully cures (it doesn't dry BTW) I'd expect to see moisture there when water levels are high.  As the concrete cures it will become more watertight.  I suspect that water is just wicking up through the new concrete and won't be an issue in the future.  Puddles, on the other hand, would concern me.
BTW, there are some pretty nice waterproof laminate floors out there now.  One is SmartCore at Lowes.  HD also has it brand.  If you install a good water barrier with flooring above you'll probably be fine.  About a year ago I installed a floating SmartCore floor over a high compressive strength XPS over bare concrete with great results. We had no water problems though.

Edit: your photos don't show but I'm guessing they did install the drain pipe inside gravel and a filter fabric, right?

Edit2: concrete takes a while to cure and is strongest if it remains wet while curing.  It will reach about 95% of its strength within about 30 days.


----------



## hydes2004 (Feb 21, 2018)

semipro said:


> Until that new concrete around the pipe fully cures (it doesn't dry BTW) I'd expect to see moisture there when water levels are high.  As the concrete cures it will become more watertight.  I suspect that water is just wicking up through the new concrete and won't be an issue in the future.  Puddles, on the other hand, would concern me.
> BTW, there are some pretty nice waterproof laminate floors out there now.  One is SmartCore at Lowes.  HD also has it brand.  If you install a good water barrier with flooring above you'll probably be fine.  About a year ago I installed a floating SmartCore floor over a high compressive strength XPS over bare concrete with great results. We had no water problems though.



Thanks for the info.  I have some delta fl membrane I was going to lay down over some landscape fabric so it does not squeak.  On top of that I think we are going with the faux wood style floors from Lowe’s.  They have a dimpled rubber membrane on the bottom for airflow.  How long does that concrete usually take to cure?  I do not currently have heat down there and the basement is about 45 degrees.  Concrete is about a month old 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## semipro (Feb 21, 2018)

See my edits above .  If you're talking about SmartCore flooring we love the stuff.  We have 4 dogs, one at 100 lb. and the stuff is tough.

Even after curing, concrete is not waterproof despite what many think. What you're looking at is wicking force versus gravitational forces.  The wickiing force will decrease as the concrete cures.  The gravitational force won't change. The latter will eventually dominate.

Edit: make sure you have backup on that sump pump.  You can go batter or there is an interesting water powered system (assuming you're on a public water supply).


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Feb 22, 2018)

I would not put anything on that floor without first laying down the raised plywood subfloor panels with the plastic feet grid underneath. ITs called DRIcore at lowes. HD has something similar. It raises your subfloor about 3/4 inches above the concrete. Its roughly about $1.50 Sq ft.  Otherwise you may get water on top your finished floor.I just installed some in a basement with a waterproof vinyl plank on top. Any type of wood product will attract mold in damp conditions.If that happens you will tearing it back out. Unless you've lived in the house 10 to 15 years you have not seen the worst case scenario as far as water table levels. I would also consider running a dehumidifier to keep the humidity under 60 %


----------



## zrock (Feb 22, 2018)

hydes2004 said:


> Thanks for the info.  I have some delta fl membrane I was going to lay down over some landscape fabric so it does not squeak.  On top of that I think we are going with the faux wood style floors from Lowe’s.  They have a dimpled rubber membrane on the bottom for airflow.  How long does that concrete usually take to cure?  I do not currently have heat down there and the basement is about 45 degrees.  Concrete is about a month old
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Takes no less than 30+ days for concrete to fully cure depending on humidity and heat.


----------



## sportbikerider78 (Feb 23, 2018)

hydes2004 said:


> Thanks for the info.  I have some delta fl membrane I was going to lay down over some landscape fabric so it does not squeak.  On top of that I think we are going with the faux wood style floors from Lowe’s.  They have a dimpled rubber membrane on the bottom for airflow.  How long does that concrete usually take to cure?  I do not currently have heat down there and the basement is about 45 degrees.  Concrete is about a month old
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You need a vapor barrier, regardless of wether this new drainage system works or not.  Dimpled tiles with cracks between the flooring is not a vapor barrier.  
If you use completely synthetic (all rubber/vinyl) flooring you might be ok.


----------



## hydes2004 (Feb 23, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> You need a vapor barrier, regardless of wether this new drainage system works or not.  Dimpled tiles with cracks between the flooring is not a vapor barrier.
> If you use completely synthetic (all rubber/vinyl) flooring you might be ok.



I am doing a vapor barrier.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## gzecc (Feb 23, 2018)

hydes2004 said:


> Hello,
> 
> 
> I recently had a French drain installed on the interior perimeter walls of my basement, there is a sump pump in the far corner with the 3” pvc piped to it.  Prior to the install I’ve only had water in my basement a hand full of times.  Right now with the snow melting and warmer weather the water table is quite high.  Last night I went into the basement and noticed that there is dampness and some very small puddling of water where the new concrete meets the old concrete.  The sump pump has been running a fair amount and since the system is only a month old the pipes and wrapping holes are not clogged.  I’m wondering how to approach this issue with the contractor.  The entire reasoning behind installing this system was to prevent any type of water intrusion since we are going to be finish the basement level.
> ...


Not sure if there is a clean out designed into the system. I would ask for one, if there is not.


----------



## hydes2004 (Feb 23, 2018)

gzecc said:


> Not sure if there is a clean out designed into the system. I would ask for one, if there is not.



There is 2 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hydes2004 (Feb 23, 2018)

So the contractor just called.  He jackhammered up some spots in the basement.  He said when he purchased and laid the stone down it was wet and frozen.  There is a  vapor barrier on top of the pipe and then stone on top of that and then the final cement.  He said the stone is slowly thawing our causing the moisture and because there is a vapor barrier under it, it has no where to go except for up.  He said give it a few weeks and the problem should remedy itself once the stone is thawed out completely.   He also said he has never had this type of issue before however never put down wet frozen stone 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## zrock (Feb 24, 2018)

I could be wrong but the vapor barrier should be over top of stone 

Sent from my SM-G903W using Tapatalk


----------



## DickRussell (Feb 25, 2018)

zrock said:


> I could be wrong but the vapor barrier should be over top of stone



You are not wrong. Given the porous nature of concrete and similar masonry products, the vapor barrier should be directly under the slab. The idea is to avoid having any reservoir of wetness directly against the concrete, such as a sand layer or, as in this case, a pipe buried in stone and sitting on a vapor barrier that prevents residual water from draining downward. However, we're talking about a narrow strip of concrete over that french drain. Unless the rest of the basement slab has a vapor barrier right under it, then misplacement of a narrow strip of polyethylene in the french drain construction hardly matters. Here is a good explanation of why the poly sheet belongs right below the slab: https://buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-003-concrete-floor-problems.


----------



## zrock (Feb 25, 2018)

ya im familiar with it just was not sure if its part of the building code in that area as it is here. i will disagree on the placement through if wrapped around the pipe then their will always be a % of water going over and under the vapor barrier and will never work 100%.  In my area that would have never passed inspection.


----------



## peakbagger (Feb 25, 2018)

Rarely do vapor barriers under concrete slabs survive, concrete folks hate plastic under the slab as it takes longer for the concrete to set to the point they can float it. Unless someone watches them like a hawk, they will punch holes in the barrier or just not put one down.


----------



## zrock (Feb 25, 2018)

peakbagger said:


> Rarely do vapor barriers under concrete slabs survive, concrete folks hate plastic under the slab as it takes longer for the concrete to set to the point they can float it. Unless someone watches them like a hawk, they will punch holes in the barrier or just not put one down.


Never really have that issue when I'm doing concrete. Iv had it take off on me to where I was barley able to float it. We are even required to put it under sidewalks 

Sent from my SM-G903W using Tapatalk


----------



## DickRussell (Feb 25, 2018)

peakbagger said:


> Rarely do vapor barriers under concrete slabs survive, concrete folks hate plastic under the slab as it takes longer for the concrete to set to the point they can float it. Unless someone watches them like a hawk, they will punch holes in the barrier or just not put one down.



It doesn't matter if holes are punched in a vapor barrier under the concrete. From the Building Science article I referenced there is this:

"Okay, so we don’t need the sand layer to handle the “curl” thing. But what about using the sand layer to protect the polyethylene? Hah. The polyethylene does not need protecting. You can poke holes in it, you can puncture it, you can tear it, you can leave gaps in it, and pretty much have your way with it as long as it is in direct contact with the concrete. Huh?  But, but, vapor barriers have to be continuous and free from any holes. Actually, no. Air barriers need to be continuous and free from holes, but vapor barriers do not need to be. Lots of vapor moves by air movement, not a heck of a lot of vapor moves by vapor diffusion. The concrete slab is the air barrier, and the ripped and torn and punctured polyethylene sheet is the vapor barrier. It’s that Fick’s Law thing. Diffusion is a direct function of surface area—if I get 95 percent of the surface covered I am pretty much 95 percent effective—and the parts that are left I have filled with concrete which is also pretty good as a vapor barrier. I could wear golf shoes and march around the plastic vapor barrier and not do much damage. But put that sand layer in there and you are doomed."

Concrete workers tend to like a mix that is easy to work, rather than a really stiff mix that results from a properly low water/cement ratio that gives a good finished slab, strong and without edge curl. The smart contractor or home owner will insist on a mix without excess water, and the workers can just do what's required or work for someone else. When you're paying the bill, you get to specify the product, or at least that's how it's supposed to work. Reality often is different, though.


----------



## zrock (Feb 25, 2018)

Around here letting the workers to what they want is not their option. Everything is tested prior to placing so they are not allowed to add water after the test... bigger pours the inspector stands right beside the truck 

Sent from my SM-G903W using Tapatalk


----------



## sportbikerider78 (Feb 26, 2018)

peakbagger said:


> Rarely do vapor barriers under concrete slabs survive, concrete folks hate plastic under the slab as it takes longer for the concrete to set to the point they can float it. Unless someone watches them like a hawk, they will punch holes in the barrier or just not put one down.


If the home owner is smart, he will ask for XPS or EPS insulation to be put down.  It can also act as a vapor barrier.


----------



## hydes2004 (Mar 3, 2018)

So we ha da big nor’easter storm yesterday.  Both pvc pipes going into the sump dumped water in all day and night.  The pump did its job.  I have one issue spot where the hearth is.  Water seeps up from there.  I think I am going to remove the hearth, move the drain all the way back to the foundation wall and install a 2nd pump in that corner.  A very small amount came down the fireplace but that is to be excepted since it is not capped.   
	

		
			
		

		
	








Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## semipro (Mar 3, 2018)

Is the flue for that hearth capped?


----------



## hydes2004 (Mar 3, 2018)

semipro said:


> Is the flue for that hearth capped?



No, that’s why water rides down it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## semipro (Mar 3, 2018)

hydes2004 said:


> No, that’s why water rides down it
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I ask because I wonder if all the water in the photo came down the flue rather than some of it coming up through the drain system.


----------



## hydes2004 (Mar 3, 2018)

You can tell it’s coming up through the area around the hearth. 
	

		
			
		

		
	










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Mar 3, 2018)

On


hydes2004 said:


> No, that’s why water rides down it
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


One of the main reasons I capped my flue top. Water.  Can get  a lot of water in there during a rain storm. Nice Stainless Steel cap did the trick.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Mar 3, 2018)

I did my basement similar to yours but I left about 2 inches open along the wall. Its filled with 2b stone with the PVC pipe under that . The wall plate(treated wood) sit above it elevated about an inch. The water never shows itself above the stone ,as soon as it hits the PVC pipe under the stone its directed toward the sump. This will, also be useful if I ever have a big water leak that spills on the basement floor. (which iv had a few already)I left  a half inch gap under the finished wall. You can also leave the same gap under the baseboard trim. Any future water on the floor can be swept right under the wall to the drain system. My setup work so well iv never had a wet slab yet in the 10 yrs iv had this setup. Water that runs down the walls goes right into the drain system to the 30 gallon sump pump pit.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Mar 3, 2018)

One difference with my setup is i poured the whole floor with new concrete with stone underneath ,so any water coming right up underneath will go sideways under the slab to the drain system immediately. I see your floor is quite old and may not have any stone underneath.


----------



## zrock (Mar 4, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> One difference with my setup is i poured the whole floor with new concrete with stone underneath ,so any water coming right up underneath will go sideways under the slab to the drain system immediately. I see your floor is quite old and may not have any stone underneath.



And with the vapor barrier under the stone and the hard pack of earth under and around the old floor the water has no ware to go but up


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Mar 4, 2018)

Most of my water comes down the walls ,but in your case id identify all the places it comes to the surface and trench those spots toward the wall into the perimeter pipe. Like spokes on a bicycle. If I were going to spend a lot of money and time on that basement remodel I would consider jack hammering up that old floor and do it right.It may only be a few inches thick.  Even if you install  plastic and an elevated floor it looks like your still going to have a mold factory going on under there, that will never dry out. I poured my floor in sections  about 4 x 6 Ft squares from a mixer and wheel barrowed it into the basement.


----------



## zrock (Mar 4, 2018)

Going back and looking at your pic's i see one of what looks like the install trench. Please say its deeper than what that picture shows. Looks like they barley went below the level of original floor. Also just out of curiosity why did you not go with a system outside of your house?


----------



## sportbikerider78 (Mar 5, 2018)

It looks like the water is coming from below and not weeping into the pipe...instead weeping above it. 

Dude..seriously...I would not finish this space till you dig around your foundation from the outside, and install a series of french drains.  You have pressure from the outside forcing water inside.  Best to fix the outside problem.

It sucks.  I did it myself.  I hated life for a while.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Mar 5, 2018)

You cant fight WATER ,its been around a lot longer than we have. And its here to stay. Only thing you can do is stay above it.


----------

