# Newbie question



## John148 (Sep 16, 2014)

I'm installing a 360,000BTU outdoor wood/coal boiler.  The insulated underground lines will have a run of 230'. I'm planning on using 1" supply and return. Does anyone know if  1" lines will be big enough? My house is around 4300 sq ft and currently is heated with 145,000 BTU propane and has 4 circulators and one that circulates thru the indirect hot water heater.


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## maple1 (Sep 16, 2014)

That seems like awfully small pipe for both the boiler output, and the length of run.

Also seems like a pretty big boiler for the heat load - although don't really know what the heat load is. It will no doubt spend a lot of time idling just from the 1" lines.


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## John148 (Sep 16, 2014)

maple1 said:


> That seems like awfully small pipe for both the boiler output, and the length of run.
> 
> Also seems like a pretty big boiler for the heat load - although don't really know what the heat load is. It will no doubt spend a lot of time idling just from the 1" lines.



I have another building I plan on hooking to the boiler at a later date. I also worried about the size of the pipe but plumber said he thought it was big enough. What would you use? I had thought about 1 1/4 pex? Thanks


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## maple1 (Sep 16, 2014)

I'm going to defer to someone else with more knowledge - but from the reading on here, I am thinking that you will be needing a pump on the huge-ish size to get that many BTUs that far through that sized pipe. Which also means an influence on the power bill.

Did your plumber do a head calc? Curious as to what it is. Also curious as to what pump he was planning. And exactly what type of pipe.


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## hobbyheater (Sep 16, 2014)

This is a site that if you don't have OWB maybe you can't join!

http://outdoorwoodfurnaceinfo.com/forum/index.php


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## Chris Hoskin (Sep 16, 2014)

First, find a different plumber.  Anyone who thinks that you can move 360,000 btu 460 feet through a one inch line needs to go back to plumbing school.  Sorry to be harsh, but we talk to so many people who put in outdoor wood boilers with poorly insulated 1" line and wonder why they can't get heat to the house.  Once they've done that, of course, they can't normally afford to just rip out the undersized pipe and re-do it, so they end up over-sizing pumps, etc. to try to overcome the fundamental flaw.  I haven't done the math, but I am not even sure 1 1/4" will be big enough for the btu and distance you are thinking about.  Second, I would encourage you to think about putting a more efficient boiler indoors in the second building and running the underground lines from there to the house.  If the outdoor boiler was splitting the distance between the two buildings, that is less practical and you may want to consider two separate boilers.

Why coal?  Are you in PA or lower NY state near the mines so you can get bulk delivery?


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## John148 (Sep 16, 2014)

Chris Hoskin said:


> First, find a different plumber.  Anyone who thinks that you can move 360,000 btu 460 feet through a one inch line needs to go back to plumbing school.  Sorry to be harsh, but we talk to so many people who put in outdoor wood boilers with poorly insulated 1" line and wonder why they can't get heat to the house.  Once they've done that, of course, they can't normally afford to just rip out the undersized pipe and re-do it, so they end up over-sizing pumps, etc. to try to overcome the fundamental flaw.  I haven't done the math, but I am not even sure 1 1/4" will be big enough for the btu and distance you are thinking about.  Second, I would encourage you to think about putting a more efficient boiler indoors in the second building and running the underground lines from there to the house.  If the outdoor boiler was splitting the distance between the two buildings, that is less practical and you may want to consider two separate boilers.
> 
> Why coal?  Are you in PA or lower NY state near the mines so you can get bulk delivery?



I need to check this out closer. I do live in central Pa and have hard coal available. I would be using wood mostly but wanted to be able to burn coal if need be. Thanks everyone for your input. I want to do it right the 1st time.


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## brant2000 (Sep 16, 2014)

Just some quick back of the napkin calcs indicates that you need to go with much larger than 1" PEX.  360 MBH with a 20 degree delta would require approximately 36 GPM.  If you ran a larger delta T, your flow rate would drop proportionally, but 20 degree is probably a good value to assume.  Just going off of a quick table I have in front of me, based on flow velocity only, 36 GPM may require 2" pipe.


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## Bob Rohr (Sep 16, 2014)

John148 said:


> I'm installing a 360,000BTU outdoor wood/coal boiler.  The insulated underground lines will have a run of 230'. I'm planning on using 1" supply and return. Does anyone know if  1" lines will be big enough? My house is around 4300 sq ft and currently is heated with 145,000 BTU propane and has 4 circulators and one that circulates thru the indirect hot water heater.





360,000 BTU input at what efficiency?  Some studies show OWF run 40- 45% efficiencies, so if that is data you believe you need to move more like 160- 170,000 BTU/hr. or 16- 17 GPM.

 You may be in the 1-1/2" size line.  That long length will hurt also.

1-1/2" pex at 15 gpm would have 1.5 psi pressure drop per 100" of run.


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## maple1 (Sep 16, 2014)

The thing is though, the system won't really be moving all the boiler output. It will only be moving what the house uses. (I don't think there is storage planned?). Which leads to the next question - has any heat load calc been done to try to quantify that? 

Then the next related thing I see sort of mentioned above - if the system will only be moving what the house can use, there will likely be a LOT of boiler idling. Not sure what can be done about that though, aside from downsizing the boiler or upping the heat load. Or burning frequent small burns - which would likely be a pain.


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## brant2000 (Sep 16, 2014)

maple1 said:


> The thing is though, the system won't really be moving all the boiler output. It will only be moving what the house uses. (I don't think there is storage planned?). Which leads to the next question - has any heat load calc been done to try to quantify that?



Although I agree with your statement, I would never want to or recommend anyone install a fired appliance that isn't capable of removing it's rated heat capacity.  That's a recipe for disaster.


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## maple1 (Sep 16, 2014)

brant2000 said:


> Although I agree with your statement, I would never want to or recommend anyone install a fired appliance that isn't capable of removing it's rated heat capacity.  That's a recipe for disaster.


 
Well, true, but it seems to be common practice with OWBs. Especially in this case as was planned by the plumber.


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## Chris Hoskin (Sep 16, 2014)

maple1, you are right, the boiler is being sized for the house and a second building.  So, assuming that the existing boiler in the house is sized properly, then the peak load there is around 145kbtu/hr..... there is a good chance that the LP boiler is over-sized, however (standard practice).  Anyway, it sounds like Bob's 1 1/2" suggestion is about right with the right pump.  John148, how big is the other building?  How far away is the second building from the house?  From the proposed OWB?


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## John148 (Sep 17, 2014)

Chris Hoskin said:


> maple1, you are right, the boiler is being sized for the house and a second building.  So, assuming that the existing boiler in the house is sized properly, then the peak load there is around 145kbtu/hr..... there is a good chance that the LP boiler is over-sized, however (standard practice).  Anyway, it sounds like Bob's 1 1/2" suggestion is about right with the right pump.  John148, how big is the other building?  How far away is the second building from the house?  From the proposed OWB?



The other building is about 150' from the boiler and the building is 36' x 48' with 10' high ceilings and insulated very well. I have only lived at the home, which is a log for a year. Last winter I used 2200 gal of propane and kept the majority of the house at 50 degrees and the area we used at 70. I felt that the propane boiler ran all the time and on the coldest days couldn't even keep the temp at 70. So in short I don't think the propane boiler is big enough?

The dealer I'm planning on buying the wood boiler from has 2 like the one I'm looking at ( 1 heats his business the other his home) and he has his circulator continuously run thru his fuel oil boiler with 1" pex and he claims he has no problems. The plumber said he would T into my existing propane boiler with 1" pex which has 1" supply and return.

So you can see why I'm confused as I have no clue why if the existing boiler has 1" supply and return, whyI would need bigger supply lines from the wood boiler.  I had suggested to the dealer I wanted to go with bigger supply and return but he claims I don't need it.


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## maple1 (Sep 17, 2014)

The existing boiler is in the house (I think?).

The wood boiler will be 230' away, with lines in between very subject to heat loss to the ground (and if the ground work & pipe isn't done exactly right you will likely lose half your heat there), and a very signficant pumping head to overcome.

Huge difference.

What is your dealers heat load compared to yours? How far is his boiler from his house? What pump is he using? How much head is it dealing with? How much wood does he use?

EDIT: Plus your feeling that the propane unit ran all the time also indicates you will need to pump a LOT of heat from the OWB to the house.

Is there any way you can move it closer?


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## brant2000 (Sep 17, 2014)

Is the existing 1" supply/return copper?  1" copper has a pretty significantly larger capacity than 1" pex, in reality, I believe it is closer to 1-1/4".

Here's a helpful chart...
http://s3.supplyhouse.com/product_files/038-100-W-Flow-Chart.pdf


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## John148 (Sep 17, 2014)

brant2000 said:


> Is the existing 1" supply/return copper?  1" copper has a pretty significantly larger capacity than 1" pex, in reality, I believe it is closer to 1-1/4".
> 
> Here's a helpful chart...
> http://s3.supplyhouse.com/product_files/038-100-W-Flow-Chart.pdf



Yes it is 1" copper.


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## John148 (Sep 17, 2014)

maple1 said:


> The existing boiler is in the house (I think?).
> 
> The wood boiler will be 230' away, with lines in between very subject to heat loss to the ground (and if the ground work & pipe isn't done exactly right you will likely lose half your heat there), and a very signficant pumping head to overcome.
> 
> ...



The dealers boiler is 200' from his home. His house is a big old farmhouse. Not sure of the size of his pump? I could move it some what closer but not by more than 50', guessing.


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## John148 (Sep 18, 2014)

Chris Hoskin said:


> maple1, you are right, the boiler is being sized for the house and a second building.  So, assuming that the existing boiler in the house is sized properly, then the peak load there is around 145kbtu/hr..... there is a good chance that the LP boiler is over-sized, however (standard practice).  Anyway, it sounds like Bob's 1 1/2" suggestion is about right with the right pump.  John148, how big is the other building?  How far away is the second building from the house?  From the proposed OWB?



Update... The plumber checked with a local plumbing supply store and they calculated I would need a 0014 circulator to move enough water thru 1" pex lines. I have no clue if that is a big circulator or not. Does that sound right?


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## maple1 (Sep 19, 2014)

How much water were they figuring on moving when they did their calcs?


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## maple1 (Sep 19, 2014)

I did a bit of googling and napkin scratching.

I'm no pro so would really like to see someone show me what I did wrong.

(This might be a bit backward).

The pump curve I found for the 0014 shows flow going to zero at 23 feet of head.

Your round trip of 460' of 1" pex at 23 feet of head equals head loss of .05/ft.

Another chart I found for Pex head loss shows loss of .05/ft at 5 to 5.3gpm.

To me, all that means that pump won't be able to move more than 5gpm through your loop - at it would be maxed out to move that much. That's not very much. But that's not exact figuring.

Would really like to see their numbers rather than just 'ya it'll work'. How many GPM you will need to heat your house is pretty critical data. If they can't show you calcs they are blowing smoke (even if mine aren't right).

Also, it uses 1.45 amps. Which translates to 175 watts. In 24 hours that's 4.2 kwh. At my rates here, that would be  almost $25/month just for that circ. Which may or may not be another consideration.

EDIT: To add from some above figuring already done, 5gpm would only be about 50,000 BTU/hr max. So with everything maxed out with that pump, that is all the heat you would get - that is not accounting for any other head losses (just the pipe), or any heat loss between the boiler & the occupant. Again, very rough calcs.


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## John148 (Sep 20, 2014)

maple1 said:


> I did a bit of googling and napkin scratching.
> 
> I'm no pro so would really like to see someone show me what I did wrong.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure what numbers they are using. I plan on asking Monday and for the plumber to come and explain to me what he's doing. It worries me that I will invest 15000 and it not work. Thank for the info.


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## maple1 (Sep 20, 2014)

I keep hoping you'll get more number related feedback than just mine - as I said I'm no pro at this. Hopefully you'll get some before Monday.


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## Bob Rohr (Sep 21, 2014)

maple1 said:


> I keep hoping you'll get more number related feedback than just mine - as I said I'm no pro at this. Hopefully you'll get some before Monday.




If you are just heating the house load, maybe 120,000 BTU/hr, taking your boiler input x 80% efficiency.  So maybe 11- 12 gpm is what you need to move through thru that 1" pex.  Add any fittings and valves to the length of the run, including couplings on that long run 

This link tells you, or the plumber, everything you need to know about sizing a circ and piping flow rates.  It has all the multipliers for the various pex and copper tube sizes. Run a couple examples and see what a huge difference pipe size makes.

http://s3.supplyhouse.com/manuals/1350986824086/84486_PROD_FILE.pdf

Remember also the power consumption of those high head circs, and the cost to run it 24/7 during the heating season.  Yet another reason to size piping to use the smallest possible circ.  Also the cost of a 0014 compared to a 007, which could easily move that 12 gpm if the pipe run was sized correctly.

At the end of the day you can always find a pump to move the required load.  It's wise to pay attention to flow velocity, power consumption, and expected pump life when they are running off the curve.

Undersizing those underground lines always seem to bite you, numerous posts here over the years have proven the error and expense of that mistake.


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## ewdudley (Sep 21, 2014)

Just more confirmation of what others are advising, here's a printout for 460 ft of 1.0" and 1.25" PEX (nominal, actual 0.863" and 1.053).  Columns are gpm, feet of head, and feet per second.


```
1.0"            1.25"
  gpm    head     fps    head     fps
 1.00    0.93    0.55    0.35    0.37
 2.00    3.34    1.10    1.27    0.74
 3.00    7.07    1.65    2.69    1.11
 4.00   12.05    2.19    4.57    1.47
 5.00   18.20    2.74    6.91    1.84
 6.00   25.50    3.29    9.69    2.21
 7.00   33.92    3.84   12.88    2.58
 8.00   43.42    4.39   16.49    2.95
 9.00   53.99    4.94   20.51    3.32
10.00   65.61    5.48   24.92    3.68
11.00   78.27    6.03   29.73    4.05
12.00   91.94    6.58   34.92    4.42
13.00  106.61    7.13   40.49    4.79
14.00  122.27    7.68   46.44    5.16
15.00  138.92    8.23   52.76    5.53
11.00   78.27    6.03   29.73    4.05
12.00   91.94    6.58   34.92    4.42
13.00  106.61    7.13   40.49    4.79
14.00  122.27    7.68   46.44    5.16
15.00  138.92    8.23   52.76    5.53
16.00  156.54    8.78   59.46    5.89
17.00  175.12    9.32   66.51    6.26
18.00  194.65    9.87   73.93    6.63
19.00  215.13   10.42   81.71    7.00
20.00  236.54   10.97   89.84    7.37
```
A 0013 Taco would push about 6.5 gpm through the 1.0" and about 11 gpm through the 1.25", costing about $20 per month 24/7.  A 008 Taco would get you a little over 4.0 gpm at about $8 per month 24/7

Once you get up over 3.5 or 4.0 fps flow rate (in your case with 460 ft of pipe), the load curve gets so much more steeper for every additional gpm that pretty soon you can see that there is no affordable solution.

As others have pointed out the flow you need depends on the load you're trying to satisfy and the magnitude of the deltaT you can achieve, not the BTU of the boiler.

As the Taco worksheet shows, deltaT is key in deciding how much flow you need.  I didn't catch where it says what your heat emitters are, but if you're stuck with WAHX you can add more coils to get bigger deltaT, and you could add a few radiant panels or radiant floors also to help out.

The 'rule-of-thumb' deltaT is 20 degF, but as the Taco worksheet notes the 20 degF deltaT is more of a worst-case estimating number.  With emitter improvements you should be able to get up to 35 degF or more.  Actually getting up over 35 degF may be your only option if you're stuck with the 1" lines.


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## John148 (Sep 21, 2014)

Thanks everyone for the great information. I need to look into this more. I can see going with a bigger pex that I could go with a smaller circulator which in the long run should be a good thing. I have a lot of calls to do tomorrow. I thought this would be easy


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## maple1 (Sep 21, 2014)

I think we have yet to hear what kind of pipe will be in ground. All kinds of potential to lose most of your heat before it hits the house. Anything wrapped is more bad news - a closed cell foam product is a must.

Good luck.


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## John148 (Sep 21, 2014)

maple1 said:


> I think we have yet to hear what kind of pipe will be in ground. All kinds of potential to lose most of your heat before it hits the house. Anything wrapped is more bad news - a closed cell foam product is a must.
> 
> Good luck.



I have been looking at both "5 wrap" and "closed cell". The furnace dealer sells the 5 wrap and used it with his underground systems and said he likes it? Closed cell looks to me to be better but 2 times the cost. It seems neather have any info on heat loss over x amount of feet and me going 230' one direction would be very beneficial. Anyone have any data to support one over the other?


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Sep 23, 2014)

John148:
Just for giggles I would post a sketch of your layout here and see what other options you have. Much experience here and could save you a few thousand bucks and much more over the length of your boiler life.
BTW-what outdoor model where you looking at?


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## John148 (Sep 23, 2014)

NE WOOD BURNER said:


> John148:
> Just for giggles I would post a sketch of your layout here and see what other options you have. Much experience here and could save you a few thousand bucks and much more over the length of your boiler life.
> BTW-what outdoor model where you looking at?



Crown Royal 7400 is what I'm leaning toward.


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## Tennman (Sep 23, 2014)

Geez John, From the pex sizing, to acceptable flow velocities, to underground insulation, was this boiler professional in the pizza business before he decided to sell boilers? For our 205kbtu rated boiler, I used an 80% knockdown and sized lines and pump around ~180kbtu. Our loop is about a 370' round trip. Per the Taco datasheet 1 1/4" pex was marginal requiring higher velocities than preferred. I should have used 1 1/2" to reduce head and velocity, but the Taco 0013 does the job but we could have had a more efficient system. I appears there are lots of "professionals" out there that cut corners to keep the system price point low for unknowing customers. The Taco Pump Datasheet has very simple hand calculations and for about 1 hour of your time you'll know how to spot a "professional". All the guys here are giving you good advice... especially Chris's. I'm old enough to remember an old TV show.... "You have much to learn grasshopper." Take your time.


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## John148 (Sep 23, 2014)

Tennman said:


> Geez John, From the pex sizing, to acceptable flow velocities, to underground insulation, was this boiler professional in the pizza business before he decided to sell boilers? For our 205kbtu rated boiler, I used an 80% knockdown and sized lines and pump around ~180kbtu. Our loop is about a 370' round trip. Per the Taco datasheet 1 1/4" pex was marginal requiring higher velocities than preferred. I should have used 1 1/2" to reduce head and velocity, but the Taco 0013 does the job but we could have had a more efficient system. I appears there are lots of "professionals" out there that cut corners to keep the system price point low for unknowing customers. The Taco Pump Datasheet has very simple hand calculations and for about 1 hour of your time you'll know how to spot a "professional". All the guys here are giving you good advice... especially Chris's. I'm old enough to remember an old TV show.... "You have much to learn grasshopper." Take your time.



Lol, thank you Master   How many sq ft are you heating? I have gotten a lot of great advise here. I had another plumber come out and look at my existing propane boiler and he said its undersized for my sized house. Also I did find 1 1/2 ob pex for about $2.50 less than what I would pay for 1 1/4 ob pex so I'm thinking I should go with that size.


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## John148 (Sep 23, 2014)

Tennman said:


> Geez John, From the pex sizing, to acceptable flow velocities, to underground insulation, was this boiler professional in the pizza business before he decided to sell boilers? For our 205kbtu rated boiler, I used an 80% knockdown and sized lines and pump around ~180kbtu. Our loop is about a 370' round trip. Per the Taco datasheet 1 1/4" pex was marginal requiring higher velocities than preferred. I should have used 1 1/2" to reduce head and velocity, but the Taco 0013 does the job but we could have had a more efficient system. I appears there are lots of "professionals" out there that cut corners to keep the system price point low for unknowing customers. The Taco Pump Datasheet has very simple hand calculations and for about 1 hour of your time you'll know how to spot a "professional". All the guys here are giving you good advice... especially Chris's. I'm old enough to remember an old TV show.... "You have much to learn grasshopper." Take your time.



Also how many cord do you burn for a winter?


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## Tennman (Sep 23, 2014)

Others posting on your thread qualify as Masters, I've just made enough mistakes to qualify as "seasoned". You're getting advice from guys who make a living doing this, for me it's a productive hobby (totally unlike my other hobbies!). Our home is ~4800, but is pretty inefficient by choice. Couldn't bear to cover up our lovely wavy glass windows so we choose to enjoy fresh, drafty air. I'd say we use about 6-7 chord/year depending on winter severity (bad last year). Last year it was going into our 6th year and I'd say we really didn't have our act all together until the 3rd or 4th year. I built a spreadsheet of the Taco Datasheet PDF which your welcome to if your at all comfortable with spreadsheets. It allows you to see for the quantity of energy your trying to move to heat your home the necessary gpm at an given water temp, consequent flow velocity given the pex size, and estimate the head required for your system. When you find a "professional" installer of these types of systems he'll be able to tell you the required gpm at an assumed water temp to meet your home's energy demand. Like the guys who replied to you above. Do some word searches here on wrapped insulation performance vs polyurethane foam. Get some fundamental knowledge here so you'll know when a boiler salesman is blowing smoke up yer skirt. Which makes me wonder, what is the origin of that saying.....   Oh well... you get it.


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## maple1 (Sep 23, 2014)

on john148 said:


> Lol, thank you Master   How many sq ft are you heating? I have gotten a lot of great advise here. I had another plumber come out and look at my existing propane boiler and he said its undersized for my sized house. Also I did find 1 1/2 ob pex for about $2.50 less than what I would pay for 1 1/4 ob pex so I'm thinking I should go with that size.



What is ob pex?


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## John148 (Sep 24, 2014)

maple1 said:


> What is ob pex?



I used ob for oxygen barrier. Has anyone ever dealt with Outdoor Furnace Supply? That's where I'm looking to buy the 1 1/2" insulated pex.


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## maple1 (Sep 24, 2014)

John148 said:


> I used ob for oxygen barrier. Has anyone ever dealt with Outdoor Furnace Supply? That's where I'm looking to buy the 1 1/2" insulated pex.


 
Yes. I bought a sidearm heat exchanger from them. Great service and nice item.

But I would stay away from wrapped pipe.

If you really don't want to send most of your boiler heat into the ground on the way to the house, you will likely be looking at over $3000 just for the inground piping - maybe close to $5k although I haven't gone pircing it myself. This is one place you do not want to skimp or cheap out on - read the 'underground' sticky at the top of the forum if you haven't already, for more on that. Some have been there & done that & wrote about it so others can avoid a bad situation.


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## John148 (Sep 24, 2014)

maple1 said:


> Yes. I bought a sidearm heat exchanger from them. Great service and nice item.
> 
> But I would stay away from wrapped pipe.
> 
> If you really don't want to send most of your boiler heat into the ground on the way to the house, you will likely be looking at over $3000 just for the inground piping - maybe close to $5k although I haven't gone pircing it myself. This is one place you do not want to skimp or cheap out on - read the 'underground' sticky at the top of the forum if you haven't already, for more on that. Some have been there & done that & wrote about it so others can avoid a bad situation.



Thanks


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## John148 (Oct 1, 2014)

Does anyone have experience with Taco, Grundfos or Badger circulator pumps? Is one better than the other? Badger and Grundfos have a 3 speed pump. Is that good? It looks like Taco cost like 2 times the other two.


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## maple1 (Oct 1, 2014)

Never heard of badger, never used taco, and hard to beat a Grundfoss 3 speed. One came built into my (expensive)  LK810 loading unit, I've got one on my electric boiler, and my load pump used to be one but I replaced it with a Grundfoss Alpha. (Any load circ that sees varying loads should be a variable speed such as an Alpha, IMO & BTW).

Are you sure you're comparing the same specs of pumps across the brands? I kind of thought Taco & Grundfoss were similar pricing on similar capacity pumps.


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## brant2000 (Oct 1, 2014)

I've never heard of Badger pumps; but otherwise Taco, Grundfos, Wilo, and Armstrong probably cover about 99% of the pumps you'll find (Taco and Grundfos being the most common).  Most will agree that Grundfos are on par or possibly better than the others, but I think all will do the job - you just need to make sure you know what the job is (ie. pump head and flow characteristics) and whether some type of "smart" controls (delta T, delta P, etc.) are beneficial.


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## John148 (Oct 1, 2014)

brant2000 said:


> I've never heard of Badger pumps; but otherwise Taco, Grundfos, Wilo, and Armstrong probably cover about 99% of the pumps you'll find (Taco and Grundfos being the most common).  Most will agree that Grundfos are on par or possibly better than the others, but I think all will do the job - you just need to make sure you know what the job is (ie. pump head and flow characteristics) and whether some type of "smart" controls (delta T, delta P, etc.) are beneficial.



I think I am. I got mixed up on the name Badger. The pumps I'm comparing are the Taco 0014 and GPD25-10SFC. Not sure but I think the 0014 is single speed and 25 gpm? And the GPD25  low speed 22, med 26 and high 32gpm? The Taco is around $300 and the GPD25 is around $125. Am I comparing apples to oranges?


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## brant2000 (Oct 1, 2014)

Something is fishy about the product data that they show on the Badger website.  If you take a look at their product catalog they mention that these are "private label pumps", but also include curves for them.  You'll notice that the curves don't come close to matching the performance spec's they show on the product page.  It looks like these pumps are standard Grundfos UP's.


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## John148 (Oct 2, 2014)

brant2000 said:


> Something is fishy about the product data that they show on the Badger website.  If you take a look at their product catalog they mention that these are "private label pumps", but also include curves for them.  You'll notice that the curves don't come close to matching the performance spec's they show on the product page.  It looks like these pumps are standard Grundfos UP's.



Yes, I saw that. I talked to a local guy and he said the Badger pumps are made by Goundfos? What does UP stand for?


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## brant2000 (Oct 2, 2014)

It's just a model/family of pumps.  (http://www.grundfos.com/products/find-product/up.html)  When comparing, you really need to take a look at the pump curves to make sure they are capable of providing your ideal flow rate using the calculated system head loss.  Although there may be slight variations in efficiencies and flow curves, it's really going to come down to the relative motor size.  If you're looking to move around 30 GPM at over 20' TDH, you're talking about a much larger pump than these typical 1/25 or 1/12 HP circulators.  That would probably require something in the ballpark of 1/2 HP, with prices probably starting around $500.


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## John148 (Oct 2, 2014)

brant2000 said:


> It's just a model/family of pumps.  (http://www.grundfos.com/products/find-product/up.html)  When comparing, you really need to take a look at the pump curves to make sure they are capable of providing your ideal flow rate using the calculated system head loss.  Although there may be slight variations in efficiencies and flow curves, it's really going to come down to the relative motor size.  If you're looking to move around 30 GPM at over 20' TDH, you're talking about a much larger pump than these typical 1/25 or 1/12 HP circulators.  That would probably require something in the ballpark of 1/2 HP, with prices probably starting around $500.



Thanks.


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## salecker (Oct 2, 2014)

Hi John
 When i did my underground lines i wanted to go with 1 1/4",the price was very high.So i went with 2 1" lines for supply and 2 1" for return.This gives some insurance if one of the lines springs a leak it could be taken out of the run and still have a 1" supply or return to use till summer when you can repair it.
 Thomas


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## John148 (Oct 3, 2014)

salecker said:


> Hi John
> When i did my underground lines i wanted to go with 1 1/4",the price was very high.So i went with 2 1" lines for supply and 2 1" for return.This gives some insurance if one of the lines springs a leak it could be taken out of the run and still have a 1" supply or return to use till summer when you can repair it.
> Thomas



Good idea. Has many people had much trouble with leaking pex other than ones punctured by rocks?


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## alaskawild (Oct 3, 2014)

John148...

I agree! Yes 1 1/4" and 1 1/2" PEX is pricy! Try using multiple runs of 1" PEX. I've done this in the past with Rifeng 1" PEX and it works just fine and the price is right Just from what little I've seen from the question above, one run of 1" PEX would be woefully undersized! You do not need to move any more btu's than your heating requirements demand. Moving 300,000 plus btu's can not be done with one, 1" supply line over that distance and probably is not needed.


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## Letsburnwoodnotoil (Oct 3, 2014)

John148 said:


> I'm installing a 360,000BTU outdoor wood/coal boiler.  The insulated underground lines will have a run of 230'. I'm planning on using 1" supply and return. Does anyone know if  1" lines will be big enough? My house is around 4300 sq ft and currently is heated with 145,000 BTU propane and has 4 circulators and one that circulates thru the indirect hot water heater.


1.5 inch MINIMUM for the BTUH you mention. And still there may / will be a larger than normal pump. Remember! 1 gallon raised 1 degree is only about 8.5 BTU!! So if yu have a 20 delta, you will need to pump almost exactly 36GPM through this line to utilize the boiler's output.


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## alaskawild (Oct 3, 2014)

FYI...
Steer clear of wrapped insulation! You get what you pay for here!


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## John148 (Oct 11, 2014)

Does anyone have any thoughts on putting the circulator pump at the outdoor wood boiler or could it be close to the existing propane boiler. If placed at the latter it would be half way? Thanks.


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## alaskawild (Oct 13, 2014)

John148 said:


> Does anyone have any thoughts on putting the circulator pump at the outdoor wood boiler or could it be close to the existing propane boiler. If placed at the latter it would be half way? Thanks.


 John would have to see a diagram to give you the best answer. Kind of hard to have one circ doing work for both boilers. Rull of thumb is to pump away from your primary heat source.


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## John148 (Nov 12, 2014)

Finally got my new outdoor wood furnace in and running for a little over a week. Doing a good job so far. From the wood  furnace to my existing propane furnace it's about 240'. The water coming from the wood furnace is 180 degrees and the gauge at the propane furnace shows 180. The return gauge shows anywhere between 163 to 170 degrees coming out of the system in the house. I put the 3 speed circulator pump in the house and currently am running it on the second speed. It is circulating constantly. I used 1 1/4" underground insulated pex and used sharkbite fittings thru out the hook up. Fingers crossed. Thanks everyone for your help and advise.


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## Tennman (Nov 12, 2014)

I'm too lazy to go back and re-read.... Is your house forced air or radiant? If it's forced air, like mine, I'm adding two ribrelay devices so our demand pump out in the boiler barn (about 180' away) cycles with the water to air HX tstat-controlled fan. When we didn't have storage I didn't worry much about the btu loss running the demand pump continuously from mid-November to mid-March.

Like you I'm very thankful for this site. Otherwise I'd be heating a big ole house with a Hardy OWB, ~400' of 1" bubble wrap pex, and smokin' up our "holler". Congrats!


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## John148 (Nov 12, 2014)

Tennman said:


> I'm too lazy to go back and re-read.... Is your house forced air or radiant? If it's forced air, like mine, I'm adding two ribrelay devices so our demand pump out in the boiler barn (about 180' away) cycles with the water to air HX tstat-controlled fan. When we didn't have storage I didn't worry much about the btu loss running the demand pump continuously from mid-November to mid-March.
> 
> Like you I'm very thankful for this site. Otherwise I'd be heating a big ole house with a Hardy OWB, ~400' of 1" bubble wrap pex, and smokin' up our "holler". Congrats!



Radiant hot water baseboard, about 4500 sq ft log home. Crown Royal OWB, model 7400.


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