# Like my 2 Englanders but...



## alltherage (Dec 7, 2012)

it seems like everywhere I go I find a stove that is blowing out wayyy hotter air.  My neighbor has an old Breckwell and that thing cranks it out....they can't even have it higher than the lowest setting or it blows everyone out of the room.  Another friend has a Regency greenfire and it's the same deal. I looked at Harmans and Enviros today and it's the same thing.

I have a 25-pdvc and a 10-cpm and I can't get them near that hot. I've adjusted and adjusted and adjusted.  I"ve burned american wood fibers and green supremes over the last 2 years.  I think they're functionally fine and they've been good, reliable stoves to this point.  But I have to admit it's frustrating that I can't get that kind of heat of out of them.  Is it just the heat exchanger design?  I can't seem to get the blowtorch like flame that other brands generate.  I've read that you don't want a flame as active as a blowtorch, but it seems like that's the ticket to heat.  The Harman I looked at showed over 400 degree air coming out of the front of the stove! 

Like I said, I love the englanders and Mike has been awesome on this site.  I just feel like something's lacking with the btu's.


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## slvrblkk (Dec 7, 2012)

I gotta tell ya, I used to have a pdvc and that thing was short on looks but man could that thing heat like crazy! The term "way hotter" is a bit subjective. It could be something as simple as burning those GS's or maybe you have too much heat being blown out your vent. I wouldn't call the flame on my EP "blowtorch" either but this thing heats my house really well. I do notice a HUGE difference though when I burn my NEWP.....just don't get the heat out of those......


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## N.E S4 (Dec 7, 2012)

I'm new to pellet stove I have a 25 PDVC beside my vacuum switch issue my stove is burning very well at 1 heat range. I have the heat range at 5 to warm up the room up fast then I turn it down to 1 and blower speed at 6. My basement is at 80 degree and with a register fan on the floor my living room is 73 degree. I'm burning greene team pellet.

Since it's in the basement the intake is over 6 feet long I've increase it to a 3 inch like it's recommended. Fresh air from the outside really helps it burn well. Colder air is more dense with more oxygen.

I have 2 wear plates so I had all of the holes in 1 of the plate chamfered. Chamfering the holes in the bottom of the wear plate will help increase air flow from the intake.

Next week once I received my new vacuum switch and the burn indicator I will do some testing. With the holes in the wear plate chamfered and without I'd like to see if my theory correct.


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## heat seeker (Dec 7, 2012)

If they're running the room blowers at a lower speed, the air coming out would be pretty hot. On the other hand, if you are running your blower at a high speed, the air coming out would be relatively cooler. 

The main thing is - does it heat your house?


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 7, 2012)

Air temperature is not a good indication of the total heat coming out of a stove. For the same number of BTU's burned an increase in the volume of air going through the heat exchanger will lower the temperature, but will increase the overall efficiency and therefore increase the amount heat delivered to the room.
Burning hot air out of the heat exchanger may be emotionally satisfying, but the rate at which the room air temperature increases is the true indication of a stove's preformance.


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## imacman (Dec 7, 2012)

Get some better pellets to begin with....GS are poor at best. What other pellets do you have available to test burn?

Key to good heat and very lively flame on the 10-cpm is to increase the LFF a little and raise the LBA a couple.  I run 3-6-1 and it's HOT coming out of the front of the stove.


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## DexterDay (Dec 7, 2012)

The heat exchange system and convection blower rates play a large part in this. 

I have a 10-CPM and a Quadrafire. Both nice stoves. But the Quad outperforms and outheats the CPM by a fair amount. 

Input BTU and Output BTU... A stove can burn 8 lbs an hr (64,000 BTU) but if it can't extract that heat??? 

Look at the heat exchange systems on your buddies stove. Then look at yours. 

Not taking away from Englander. They are a great Manufacturer and have awesome customer service (best). I own 3 of there stoves, so I do not Hate them!  Quality and Quantity.


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## subsailor (Dec 7, 2012)

alltherage said:


> The Harman I looked at showed over 400 degree air coming out of the front of the stove!


 
I have a Harman and I'd have to see that.


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## smoke show (Dec 7, 2012)

DexterDay said:


> The heat exchange system and convection blower rates play a large part in this.


qft


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## heat seeker (Dec 7, 2012)

It depends on the measurement method, also. The Harman user may have measured the metal temp, not the air temp, in error. Then there's the accuracy of the thermometer.


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## subsailor (Dec 7, 2012)

smoke show said:


> qft


 
Huh?


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## smoke show (Dec 7, 2012)

quoted for truth


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## subsailor (Dec 7, 2012)

OK.


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 7, 2012)

alltherage said:


> The Harman I looked at showed over 400 degree air coming out of the front of the stove!


Why would you want 400 degree air? It sounds like a fire hazard (paper ignites at 451, a cooking oven typically runs at 350). Why would you want a stove so hot it drives everybody out of the room?


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## subsailor (Dec 7, 2012)

That's why I don't believe it.


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## alltherage (Dec 7, 2012)

the guy was using a laser thermometer so, come to think of it, the laser was on the metal.  My mistake...but the air was very hot to the touch.  I understand temp vs btu etc.  It's just very comforting to feel the hot air come out of a stove.


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## alltherage (Dec 7, 2012)

the 25-pdvc is burning the green supremes really well actually compared to the american wood fibers.  i was surprised after i read the reviews.  I tried a couple bags and was impressed...virtually no fines and good heat.  That stove is in a small workshop so no biggie.  I'm more concerned about the 10-cpm at this point because it's in the basement which is 1500 sq. feet and all concrete. We only use it when we have parties etc so it's not crucial, but it would be nice to get more out of it. I'll try 3-6-1 on the settings. thanks


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## slvrblkk (Dec 7, 2012)

alltherage said:


> the 25-pdvc is burning the green supremes really well actually compared to the american wood fibers. i was surprised after i read the reviews. I tried a couple bags and was impressed...virtually no fines and good heat. That stove is in a small workshop so no biggie. I'm more concerned about the 10-cpm at this point because it's in the basement which is 1500 sq. feet and all concrete. We only use it when we have parties etc so it's not crucial, but it would be nice to get more out of it. I'll try 3-6-1 on the settings. thanks


 
Whoh....whoh......what one second, you have the CPM in a basement?  Is it completely unfinished and uninsulated?


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## DexterDay (Dec 7, 2012)

smoke show said:


> quoted for truth



Yes it is...  Smoke owns an Englander too  (and a Quad).

I am not putting Englander down. They are an AWESOME company and make stoves for the masses. 

But there is a long time saying. Two of them actually.  But one is "You get what you pay for".


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## smoke show (Dec 7, 2012)

DexterDay said:


> "You get what you pay for".


qft


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## alltherage (Dec 7, 2012)

it's an unfinished basement but the walls are superior walls with 1" insulation.  The ceiling is insulated too.  I know it takes a ton of heat to get it warm. We put the stove down there to use once in a while in a section of the basement that we have isolated.  It was more of a long term vision putting the stove down there and finishing it off.  At this point,   I'm strictly talking about the perceived temp coming out of the stove vs. what I felt today at the stove shop and my neighbor's stove.


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## DexterDay (Dec 7, 2012)

Have you measured your air temp on 9-9 and measured another stove with similar sized convection blower rate?


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## slvrblkk (Dec 7, 2012)

alltherage said:


> it's an unfinished basement but the walls are superior walls with 1" insulation. The ceiling is insulated too. I know it takes a ton of heat to get it warm. We put the stove down there to use once in a while in a section of the basement that we have isolated. It was more of a long term vision putting the stove down there and finishing it off.* At this point, I'm strictly talking about the perceived temp coming out of the stove vs. what I felt today at the stove shop and my neighbor's stove*.


 
I gotcha.....why don't you just try taking a reading with a thermometer and see what it actually is?


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## BrotherBart (Dec 7, 2012)

DexterDay said:


> Yes it is... Smoke owns an Englander too  (and a Quad).
> 
> I am not putting Englander down. They are an AWESOME company and make stoves for the masses.
> 
> But there is a long time saying. Two of them actually. But one is "You get what you pay for".


 
So if that is the case. With a pellet stove you would make up the difference with less pellets used to make the same amount or more heat. Right?


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## alltherage (Dec 7, 2012)

i have both stoves going right now...i'll put 'em on 9-9 , let 'em warm up and try it....
I changed the cpm to 3-6-1 and I've been running the pdvc at 4-4-1....be back in a bit with the numbers....


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 7, 2012)

Heat exchanger outlet temperature is also dependent on inlet temperature. Just how cold is the starting room temperature.


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## heat seeker (Dec 7, 2012)

The temperature of the air entering the heat exchanger from the room will affect the output temp. The air on the floor in your basement is probably lots cooler than the air on your friend's living room floor. Just one more factor.


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## alltherage (Dec 7, 2012)

after 10 minutes on 9-9, the pdvc is at 180F and the cpm is at 146F.  I'm going to retest in 30 min or so


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## alltherage (Dec 7, 2012)

btw, i should probably use the summers heat model numbers huh lol...can never remember them! Englander models are easier


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## DexterDay (Dec 7, 2012)

BrotherBart said:


> So if that is the case. With a pellet stove you would make up the difference with less pellets used to make the same amount or more heat. Right?




Yes. Better exchange = Same heat, with less pellets


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## alltherage (Dec 7, 2012)

the wife almost killed me...using her food thermometer like that! she's a chef and very protective!


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## BrotherBart (Dec 7, 2012)

DexterDay said:


> Yes. Better exchange = Same heat, with less pellets


 
So instead of incessant talk about what pellets burn hotter the conversation should be what pellet stove squeezes the most heat out of any pellet ya dump in it. A pretty standard conversation in the cord wood burning side of this barn.


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## alltherage (Dec 7, 2012)

right now, the cmp is at 173 and the pdvc is at 210.  I'm taking the measurements 1" in front of the grate where the hottest air is coming out.


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## alltherage (Dec 7, 2012)

final temps of the night...cpm at 185 and pdvc at 220


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## DexterDay (Dec 8, 2012)

Those temps are at what settings??? 5-5, 7-7, 9-9?? Just wondering


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## CT Pellet (Dec 8, 2012)

alltherage said:


> The Harman I looked at showed over 400 degree air coming out of the front of the stove!


allthereage....this just isn't true. If what you are comparing is the heat from the Englander to a stove that shoots 400 degre air, you will never be satisfied. But believe me, this Harman that could put out 400 degree air would be lethal.


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## nhredbird (Dec 8, 2012)

You would need to compair the size of the fans (cfm) as well.
Englander puts a large fan on the CPM.


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## CT Pellet (Dec 8, 2012)

BrotherBart said:


> So instead of incessant talk about what pellets burn hotter the conversation should be what pellet stove squeezes the most heat out of any pellet ya dump in it. A pretty standard conversation in the cord wood burning side of this barn.


You firewood guys are just way smarter, more sophisticated and better looking than us pellet guys will ever be- bottom line. Just wait until Inferno sells cord wood, then you  *WILL* have the same "incessant talk " that we do here.


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## mepellet (Dec 8, 2012)

subsailor said:


> I have a Harman and I'd have to see that.


Likely another mag thermometer on the front that is really reading the surface temp not the air temp.

Edit: Disregard.


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## alltherage (Dec 8, 2012)

i took my temps on 9-9.  The harman dealer had a laser that he shot at the grate in front, so it's most likely the temp of the metal.  Like I've said, the perceived temperature was simply awesome .


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## TLHinCanada (Dec 8, 2012)

In order for the comparison to objective, the stoves (what ever type were being compared) would have to be run in the same room at different times.  The ambient tempeture would have to be constant.  The cfm of the convection fans and the feed rate would have to matched.  After doing all this work, the difference in priceing would have to be considered (big box stores dumping their inventory).  I have seen alot of threads were harmon owners are not happy with their current level of help from the company.  Alot of threads for the Englanders getting help over the phone right away.  But the thread that explained it best was, you can buy an expensive sports car, or a chev, they both due the same thing. Get you from point A to B, or in our case heat the house.


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## Pellet-King (Dec 8, 2012)

Ya get what ya pay for!!, i know there's alot of happy englander owners but there ugly and get no repect from me, a cheap looking box store stove all it is....


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## jtakeman (Dec 8, 2012)

BrotherBart said:


> So instead of incessant talk about what pellets burn hotter the conversation should be what pellet stove squeezes the most heat out of any pellet ya dump in it. A pretty standard conversation in the cord wood burning side of this barn.


 
Well, That would work if the conversation was about looking for a new or replacement stove. But when the stove is already installed and its all ya got to work with. We try to steer em to a better pellet if the current pellet isn't cutting it(get the most outa what ya got per say). Lots easier to scoop out the hopper and refill than it is to tear the stove out. Not to mention the cost involved.

We have chatted a bit about convection efficiency in the past. I know I have(bragged several times about the huge heat exchanger on the Omega/Maxx units) and there is a thread where the quad owners did some experimenting with springs in the convection tubes.

Besides we really really enjoy pellet chats(what else is there ta do when its cold outside). Stove chats get a lil brutal.


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## slvrblkk (Dec 8, 2012)

Pellet-King said:


> *Ya get what ya pay fo*r!!, i know there's alot of happy englander owners but there ugly and get no repect from me, a cheap looking box store stove all it is....


 
Your're right...I got a great, good looking stove at an awesome price with second to none customer service!


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## BrotherBart (Dec 8, 2012)

jtakeman said:


> Besides we really really enjoy pellet chats(what else is there ta do when its cold outside). Stove chats get a lil brutal.


 
Can't believe somebody didn't say "What the heck do you think all that chatter in The Wood Shed is?".


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## heat seeker (Dec 8, 2012)

BrotherBart said:


> Can't believe somebody didn't say "What the heck do you think all that chatter in The Wood Shed is?".


 
A dull saw chain?


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## jtakeman (Dec 8, 2012)

BrotherBart said:


> Can't believe somebody didn't say "What the heck do you think all that chatter in The Wood Shed is?".


 
Ya know if you stuffed your wood eater full of black locus, You'd get a longer burn than the birch/maple/poplar chit. Might be able to get a few more degree's out of it too. Locus was my winter stash ya know!


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## jtakeman (Dec 8, 2012)

slvrblkk said:


> Your're right...I got a great, good looking stove at an awesome price with second to none customer service!


 
Does the 25 EP have tubes in the heat exchanger or the box type? I got a bud looking at for one.


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## slvrblkk (Dec 8, 2012)

jtakeman said:


> Does the 25 EP have tubes in the heat exchanger or the box type? I got a bud looking at for one.


 
It's got tubes Jay.....If he is serious about buying one, he definitely should check out AM/FM.......


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## jtakeman (Dec 8, 2012)

slvrblkk said:


> It's got tubes Jay.....If he is serious about buying one, he definitely should check out AM/FM.......


 
Thanks, I couldn't tell from the manual. He wants to see one first. He's gotta do that touchy feely thing. I think once he does, The AM/FM deal will reel him in. Well go looking to find onenow that I know its a tube type.

He did like the looks of the 25 IP, But I don't like the box heat exchanger. Another bud has one and we had to do some modding to help scavenge heat out of it.


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## DexterDay (Dec 8, 2012)

jtakeman said:


> Thanks, I couldn't tell from the manual. He wants to see one first. He's gotta do that touchy feely thing. I think once he does, The AM/FM deal will reel him in. Well go looking to find onenow that I know its a tube type.
> 
> He did like the looks of the 25 IP, But I don't like the box heat exchanger. Another bud has one and we had to do some modding to help scavenge heat out of it.



If I had it to do again. The EP would be at the top of the Englander list. Just because of the heat exchange system. 

But I am still looking at the .-.. or .-..


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## slvrblkk (Dec 8, 2012)

jtakeman said:


> Thanks, I couldn't tell from the manual. He wants to see one first. He's gotta do that touchy feely thing. I think once he does, The AM/FM deal will reel him in. Well go looking to find onenow that I know its a tube type.
> 
> He did like the looks of the 25 IP, But I don't like the box heat exchanger. Another bud has one and we had to do some modding to help scavenge heat out of it.


 
As I said in an earlier post, my old pdvc, while short on looks, was a great little heater with the "box" exchanger...which was actually overkill at times! But to each their own. Really, the only two things I didn't like about it was there wasn't a removable ash pan and the two auger design which is why I wound up getting my 25........


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## alltherage (Dec 8, 2012)

so...are my temps low?


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## imacman (Dec 8, 2012)

alltherage said:


> so...are my temps low?


Bottom line here is....do the stoves heat your rooms the way you think they should? The 10-cpm in the basement w/ bare concrete floors will have a hard time.....floor and no ceiling insulation will soak-up/leak heat.

Have you gone out & bought a few bags of better quality pellets to try....every stove is different, but I see a big improvement in my 10-cpm when I burn the better pellets I have (Greene Team, Stove Chow, Sommersets, Barefoot, Lignetics Green label).

When I burn the CleanFire's (AKA NEWP & Green Supreme), the temp drops significantly.


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## alltherage (Dec 8, 2012)

i've always burned low end pellets...i know i should try premiums, just always end up going cheap.  what kind of temps are you getting out of your cpm with barefoots for example?  i can get those at the local shop.


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## alltherage (Dec 8, 2012)

we got the one in the basement a bit premature as we knew it wouldn't be utilized full capacity until it got finished off. 
but, we buillt a nice 16' bar down there and have a nice tv with couches etc and have parties everyonce in a while, and it got frustrating with no heat source...so we put the cart before the horse and got the stove


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## imacman (Dec 8, 2012)

Not burning Barefoots right now (saving them for the real cold weather).  Burning Greene Team, but don't have a thermometer to measure.  Just know that I can't stand right in front of it for more than a minute on 2-3.

Get 3-4 bags of Barefoots, clean the stove, and burn them.  You won't know for sure until you try something else.

And buying cheap pellets doesn't pay in the end....you end up burning on higher heat settings and use more pellets.  I've NEVER had my 10-cpm on 9-9.   Highest ever was 6-8 last winter on a night with temps in the low single digits.


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## mithesaint (Dec 8, 2012)

imacman said:


> Not burning Barefoots right now (saving them for the real cold weather). Burning Greene Team, but don't have a thermometer to measure. Just know that I can't stand right in front of it for more than a minute on 2-3.
> 
> Get 3-4 bags of Barefoots, clean the stove, and burn them. You won't know for sure until you try something else.
> 
> And buying cheap pellets doesn't pay in the end....you end up burning on higher heat settings and use more pellets. I've NEVER had my 10-cpm on 9-9. Highest ever was 6-8 last winter on a night with temps in the low single digits.


 
Never?  Really?  Tell me more about your house.  I'm heating a 2400 sq ft house decently insulated but poorly sealed house, and have to crank it up to 9-9 when it gets cold AND windy.  One or the other is fine, just not both at the same time.  

I bought the stove used, and have wondered from time to time if I'm getting the right heat out of it.  I've replaced all gaskets and cleaned everything clean-able, and am not having any issues, but always wondered if it should be hotter...


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## jtakeman (Dec 8, 2012)

Well, Don't laugh ya all! A bud bought the 25 IP and felt the same. Not enough heat out the convection as to what the old stove he had. He also felt he was burning a bit more pellets ta boot. We fiddled with the settings and yadda yadda yadda. Seemed we were getting nowhere, Not getting good convection and passed too much out the vent no matter what. Only way to get the temp up was to do the no-no of running the fan below the heat level setting.

So, I took the lid off and the front grill out. Measured the top of the box and did some figuring. Wound up getting some tee channel extruded aluminum from a local place. Cut them to length and laid them on top of the box to help pull some heat(wick-heat sink-what every). No fasterns were used as I didn't want to risk a leak! With everything the same we pulled an extra 25ºF out of the convection air. I only could get 1x1-1/2, might a squeezed a bit more with a large profile?





I don't like a box heat exchanger, I want the most area I can possibly get to extract the most possible. To me the stoves with the box like the cab series and these. Are not going to be as efficient as the tube or accordion type heat exchangers. IMHO the more area offered to convect heat has to improve the overall efficiency.

Carry on!


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## imacman (Dec 8, 2012)

mithesaint said:


> Never? Really? Tell me more about your house. I'm heating a 2400 sq ft house decently insulated but poorly sealed house, and have to crank it up to 9-9 when it gets cold AND windy.......


 
I have a 2700 sq. ft log home, so the insulation factor isn't great to begin with.  The room the stove is in is a great room with 16' peaked ceiling....LR, DR, and K all connected and open.  Not too difficult for me to keep those areas at 69-70 degrees.
I COULD also heat the upstairs 2 bedrooms if I wanted to, as the doors for those are off an open balcony, but they don't get used too much anymore.

The pic I attached was taken years ago before the pellet stove was swapped in for the wood stove in the pic, but you get the idea.  The kitchen is just to the left of the dining area table.


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## chrisasst (Dec 8, 2012)

alltherage said:


> so...are my temps low?


 

Well, let me tell you, I am in the same boat, thinking that the PDVC is not heating enough. I run 9/9,  3-5-1  and I get about 220 out of my stove also buring barefoots.
Do you know what your mode is? a, b ,c or d?    
I have to reset to mode c because the heat coming on d was a joke.  
Luckily I have a EF2 that helps heat my house. I have to have both stoves running pretty much all the time when temp is 35 or below.


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## alltherage (Dec 8, 2012)

i really tinkered with my pdvc to use few pellets at night because i was only burning at 1-1 or 2-2.  I had the bottom 3 buttons at 1-3-1 or 1-2-1 etc.  I recently went back to factory setttings of 6-4-1 and i'm relatively pleased with the heat i guess.  The 10-cpm is what is concerning to me most.


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## alltherage (Dec 8, 2012)

i'm in D mode by the way


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## tjnamtiw (Dec 8, 2012)

heat seeker said:


> If they're running the room blowers at a lower speed, the air coming out would be pretty hot. On the other hand, if you are running your blower at a high speed, the air coming out would be relatively cooler.
> 
> The main thing is - does it heat your house?


Heatseeker is right on the money.  All pellets are _around _8000 btu's per pound.  It depends on how many lbs you're dumping in the burnpot, the speed of the air across the heat exchanger, how clean your heat exchanger tubes are, how well you are burning them (air flow thru burnpot).  All the stoves appear to be _about_ the same efficiency so it is very subjective to judge a stove's performance by what you feel coming out of the air passages.  How high is the flame?  How active is the flame?  What color is the flame? How fast is the air blowing? Notice that some of the air ducts blow a lot faster than others.  The slow ones (usually on the sides) blow slower and will feel hotter.


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## slvrblkk (Dec 9, 2012)

alltherage said:


> i really tinkered with my pdvc to use few pellets at night because i was only burning at 1-1 or 2-2. I had the bottom 3 buttons at 1-3-1 or 1-2-1 etc. I recently went back to factory setttings of 6-4-1 and i'm relatively pleased with the heat i guess. The 10-cpm is what is concerning to me most.


 
Have you tried running your CPM at 4-4-1 or 4-5-1...etc just to see if there is a change? Get more pellets in the pot and see what happens.......


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## jdempsey (Dec 9, 2012)

jtakeman said:


> Well, Don't laugh ya all! A bud bought the 25 IP and felt the same. Not enough heat out the convection as to what the old stove he had. He also felt he was burning a bit more pellets ta boot. We fiddled with the settings and yadda yadda yadda. Seemed we were getting nowhere, Not getting good convection and passed too much out the vent no matter what. Only way to get the temp up was to do the no-no of running the fan below the heat level setting.
> 
> So, I took the lid off and the front grill out. Measured the top of the box and did some figuring. Wound up getting some tee channel extruded aluminum from a local place. Cut them to length and laid them on top of the box to help pull some heat(wick-heat sink-what every). No fasterns were used as I didn't want to risk a leak! With everything the same we pulled an extra 25ºF out of the convection air. I only could get 1x1-1/2, might a squeezed a bit more with a large profile?
> 
> ...


Wondering if the 10-cpm heat exchanger can be modded in a similar way.

I have notice the same thing. This stove does not seem to put out the same heat as other models in the same class.


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## jtakeman (Dec 9, 2012)

jdempsey said:


> Wondering if the 10-cpm heat exchanger can be modded in a similar way.
> 
> I have notice the same thing. This stove does not seem to put out the same heat as other models in the same class.


 
If the top comes off and you can lay some strips accros the top of the heat exchanger? Sure it might be worth a try. Only draw back is it does take a good while of running for these to start working, But you should gain a slight amount.

I don't think he spent $20 bucks for the material and about an hours time(remove the lid/grille cut lengths and reinstall the lid/grille). Might take longer if you only have a hack saw(I have a band saw).


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## DexterDay (Dec 9, 2012)

jdempsey said:


> Wondering if the 10-cpm heat exchanger can be modded in a similar way.
> 
> I have notice the same thing. This stove does not seem to put out the same heat as other models in the same class.



Yeah. The top of the CPM comes right off. 4 bolts and its topless

It couldn't hurt to try. It could definitely use some help  

It will burn anything and do it with ease. But heat extraction is its weak point. Its a small steel box (firebox) surrounded by a larger steel box (shell of stove) and air blows up the back and over the top. The sides could have been.utilized in my opinion, but they are not  

Aluminum would be my choice of material. But steel will work. Anything to increase surface area to pull heat from that "box".


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## imacman (Dec 9, 2012)

DexterDay said:


> Yeah. The top of the CPM comes right off. 4 bolts and its topless......


 
That doesn't lead you to the heat exchanger "box" AFAIR....just allows to clean under the vent holes.


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## DexterDay (Dec 9, 2012)

imacman said:


> That doesn't lead you to the heat exchanger "box" AFAIR....just allows to clean under the vent holes.



Tu chet.... Your right. I spoke to soon.  

Not gonna work  Oh well.


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 9, 2012)

tjnamtiw said:


> All the stoves appear to be about the same efficiency


I have been wondering about that. Is there a published comparison available somewhere? I don't think I have ever seen efficiency numbers for any of the Englanders.


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## alltherage (Dec 10, 2012)

going to get a ton of somersets after work and try those for comparison


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 10, 2012)

subsailor said:


> I have a Harman and I'd have to see that.


Probably not from a pellet stove but my harman 300-TL put,s out so much heat on the lowest setting i heat 3000 SF to the high 70,s on a 35 Deg day. It does get a lot hotter than either of my englander stoves. Also my country hearth will go to 800 deg stovetop ,in never seen those kind of temps with either of my englanders.


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## jtakeman (Dec 10, 2012)

Harvey Schneider said:


> I have been wondering about that. Is there a published comparison available somewhere? I don't think I have ever seen efficiency numbers for any of the Englanders.


 
EPA did have a list with some pellet eaters. I think its posted here somewhere. I'll do some diggin.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 10, 2012)

Here ya go up to date even https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...nIDYDg&usg=AFQjCNFy-KR5-TeOYEgvyShIag05C8aFBw


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## jtakeman (Dec 10, 2012)

Thanks bear! 

My turn for a slow internet sevice day.


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 10, 2012)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Here ya go up to date even https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CD0QxQEwAA&url=https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:3gnSzJCFgDsJ:www.epa.gov/compliance/resources/publications/monitoring/caa/woodstoves/certifiedwood.pdf+&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgWoIfYeCnGeoU5sBGs5rGUk2GtESgW4GQqubUgMKVWNH4jMOuyrt6jMF6kCYkAXS3TZ0DNNZ2Tb4uBKELSey6yNytgap1LtjjHLBpk6Lh8wsAvS0roiTDDAlc2CgYKN_Eb9ot0&sig=AHIEtbSHTcovaAnEPYLSKICoZuoTWkyceA&ei=P_TFUI3TEoni0gHGnIDYDg&usg=AFQjCNFy-KR5-TeOYEgvyShIag05C8aFBw


Thanks I just found that on my own. I does not contain any real data, only government assigned values (all pellet stoves are created equal).
Thanks for trying.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 10, 2012)

Harvey Schneider said:


> Thanks I just found that on my own. I does not contain any real data, only government assigned values (all pellet stoves are created equal).
> Thanks for trying.


 
Actually Harvey it does for a few stoves. But that is another matter. If you want anything else I'm afraid you are going to have to get yourself a pile of gear and run your own tests. Because the only other information is going to come from the stove makers.


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## maple1 (Dec 10, 2012)

Do any of you pellet fellows do any flue temp measuring?

Seems to me that if the fuel is being burned, there are only two places for the heat to go - into the living space, or out the flue pipe. Flue temps should help the analyzing?


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## heat seeker (Dec 10, 2012)

I have measured the temp of the adapter between the stove and pipe. I generally get around 250 deg. F.


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## tjnamtiw (Dec 10, 2012)

My flue temp measured with a contact pyrometer, not a highly inaccurate IR detector, at the exit of the combustion blower is 140, IIRC.  The temperature is only ONE factor in looking at the efficiency.  You MUST take into account the air flow rate.  Is that 100 CFM of 140 degree air or 200 CFM, for instance?  Very, very complicated and no one here is set up to accurately measure efficiency.  Heck, even the Feds aren't, obviously.


----------



## DRINKSFORALL (Dec 10, 2012)

alltherage said:


> it seems like everywhere I go I find a stove that is blowing out wayyy hotter air. My neighbor has an old Breckwell and that thing cranks it out....they can't even have it higher than the lowest setting or it blows everyone out of the room. Another friend has a Regency greenfire and it's the same deal. I looked at Harmans and Enviros today and it's the same thing.
> 
> I have a 25-pdvc and a 10-cpm and I can't get them near that hot. I've adjusted and adjusted and adjusted. I"ve burned american wood fibers and green supremes over the last 2 years. I think they're functionally fine and they've been good, reliable stoves to this point. But I have to admit it's frustrating that I can't get that kind of heat of out of them. Is it just the heat exchanger design? I can't seem to get the blowtorch like flame that other brands generate. I've read that you don't want a flame as active as a blowtorch, but it seems like that's the ticket to heat. The Harman I looked at showed over 400 degree air coming out of the front of the stove!
> 
> Like I said, I love the englanders and Mike has been awesome on this site. I just feel like something's lacking with the btu's.


I have very similar stove (Timber ridge insert) and I just tried the Green supremes and the stove runs very well. Very large flame when set on just 4 (auger speed) and 6 (blower speed). Was able to get a large great room (18 ft ceiling) to 75 from 65 in about 2 hours no problem!


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## tjnamtiw (Dec 10, 2012)

jtakeman said:


> Thanks bear!
> 
> My turn for a slow internet sevice day.


My internet was super slow yesterday.  I couldn't even watch a movie without it 'buffering' all the time.  I pulled the plug on the modem/router and plugged it back up and away it went back at full speed.  It's worth a try!


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## tjnamtiw (Dec 10, 2012)

DRINKSFORALL said:


> I have very similar stove (Timber ridge insert) and I just tried the Green supremes and the stove runs very well. Very large flame when set on just 4 (auger speed) and 6 (blower speed). Was able to get a large great room (18 ft ceiling) to 75 from 65 in about 2 hours no problem!


 
More heat in (pellets) equals more heat out, hence the 'very large flame'.  Does Englander specify the correct flame height for a particular auger speed? Flame height/lbs per hour depends on the pellet size at any set auger speed so there should be some kind of adjustment to prevent over firing.


----------



## Harvey Schneider (Dec 10, 2012)

tjnamtiw said:


> More heat in (pellets) equals more heat out, hence the 'very large flame'. Does Englander specify the correct flame height for a particular auger speed? Flame height/lbs per hour depends on the pellet size at any set auger speed so there should be some kind of adjustment to prevent over firing.


On the PDVC there is a choke plate to limit the amount fed to the upper auger. It can only be adjusted when the hopper is empty. There is also a low fuel feed adjustment (one of the three magic buttons) that can be used to trim the fuel feed at low settings.


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## SteveB (Dec 10, 2012)

alltherage said:


> i'm in D mode by the way


 
C mode will give you more heat than D.


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## smoke show (Dec 10, 2012)

Harvey Schneider said:


> On the PDVC there is a choke plate to limit the amount fed to the upper auger. It can only be adjusted when the hopper is empty.


Not all pdvc's have a fuel gate. just sayn.


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## jdempsey (Dec 10, 2012)

Ok guys you got me thinking, so i did some modifications. I use a jigsaw to cut a slot in the top of metal piece.The heat exchanger resides just beneath. I then filled this area with several computer cpu heat sinks. Laying them on the heat exchanger.

I then cut a 1\4 inch piece of steel and sealed this hole back up. Its 34 degrees currently outside and the wife likes it 73 upstairs. Usually i have to run the feed rate on 4 to keep it that temp its now running on 3. This definitely has gave me more heat with less pellets. Although my temp probe has vanished im not for sure the exact amount. Ill do some checking once its located.


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## smoke show (Dec 10, 2012)

you do realize someones gonna yell at you for doing that.

It won't be me. good job!


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## jtakeman (Dec 10, 2012)

smoke show said:


> you do realize someones gonna yell at you for doing that.
> 
> It won't be me. good job!


 
Me neither! Just close up the hole and who'd even know? 

Dang my idea's do work holly crap even. See what happens when ya have just onze too manzy!


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## heat seeker (Dec 10, 2012)

Good ash traps!


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## jtakeman (Dec 10, 2012)

heat seeker said:


> Good ash traps!


 
Ash won't even touch em. They are just pulling heat off the top of the heat exchanger.


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## DexterDay (Dec 10, 2012)

Thats gotta work pretty good. The ones on top are just added radiant bonus!


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## jdempsey (Dec 10, 2012)

DexterDay said:


> Thats gotta work pretty good. The ones on top are just added radiant bonus!


Actually those on top are the ones i laid on the heat exchanger. Took a pic before i put them in the slot so you could see how many.

I have my setup running really well now. I bought a VARIAC to drop the voltage on my 3 inline fans that i have attached to the front of my stove. Alot of experimenting. Its a job heating the upper level from a basement. I have now finally managed to do so.

The optimal and best heat comes from running the stove on lower heat setting (warmer convection air) and having the VARIAC set at 60 volts. Just pushing the air along not all that fast seems to work nicely. And now the heatsinks have even made the setup that more efficient.

Now if i can just convince the wife it dont need to be 73 in here. I prefer 70 myself.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 10, 2012)

Try some of that thermal compound that is used to join the heat sinks to them thar 'puter type devices.

Speaking of which would a nice 4.2 GHz 8 core amd unit make a speedy home system?


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## Shaw520 (Dec 10, 2012)

...Aside from warping the lid,... that'll proly work awesome!


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## jdempsey (Dec 10, 2012)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Try some of that thermal compound that is used to join the heat sinks to them thar 'puter type devices.
> 
> Speaking of which would a nice 4.2 GHz 8 core amd unit make a speedy home system?


Yeah, i thought about using thermal compound. I use alot of in my line of work. That stuff is so messy. I figured it was not worth the headache.

8 cores. Wow. Smokey are you a 3d gamer? Should blow thru anything you throw at it. I like AMD Cpu's.


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 10, 2012)

Nope not a gamer at all let alone a 3D one, looking for something to make Kernel compilations and such faster.  It seems to have grown past the point that my old system can finish in a reasonable amount of time so I haven't been playing as much lately.

People never heard of keeping things simple, I guess.

But this is a digression from the topic at hand namely milking a stove for all the heat you can get out of it.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 10, 2012)

jtakeman said:


> Ash won't even touch em. They are just pulling heat off the top of the heat exchanger.


 
Err, don't count on that, stuff coming in with the air flow will deposit all kinds of crud in those fins, I have to remove such crud regularly from my 'puter's heat sinks or risk a thermal shutdown..


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## Shaw520 (Dec 10, 2012)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> namely milking a stove for all the heat you can get out of it.


 
.... and I thought that's why we are all here ?


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 10, 2012)

Shaw520 said:


> .... and I thought that's why we are all here ?


 
Yes which as why my mention of the 8 core was off topic.


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## heat seeker (Dec 10, 2012)

jtakeman said:


> Ash won't even touch em. They are just pulling heat off the top of the heat exchanger.


oh - I had it backwards! I get it now.


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## nhredbird (Dec 11, 2012)

There going to block-off air flow, which would raise the temp anyway?


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## alltherage (Dec 11, 2012)

jdempsey said:


> Actually those on top are the ones i laid on the heat exchanger. Took a pic before i put them in the slot so you could see how many.
> 
> I have my setup running really well now. I bought a VARIAC to drop the voltage on my 3 inline fans that i have attached to the front of my stove. Alot of experimenting. Its a job heating the upper level from a basement. I have now finally managed to do so.
> 
> ...


 
Can you elaborate on your basement setup...how big a 1st floor and how big a basement? finished basement?  do you have a openings for the warm air to rise, like an open cellar door etc, or does it radiate?...I know it's been talked about on here a bunch regarding the difficulty in accomplishing what you're doing so i'm interested to hear a success story..thanks


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## TLHinCanada (Dec 11, 2012)

I'm pretty sure that there is a high temperature sensor on the stove so you probably won't overheat it and melt it down.  Before and after air temps (even using a oven thermometer) while running the covection fan at the same speed might be interesting, but they would be higher because cfms would be down using the sinks.  I suppose the cfms loss could be calculated and the fan speed increased so the test would accurate.  Obstructing the air flow may have some negitive effect on your motor.  I'm sure that one of resident electrical gurus can tell us if creating a back pressure will damage the motor.  Only after conducting these (and probably more) tests can we say that the efficiency of the stove has been increased and by how much.  If your only gaining 1% its probably not worth it.  If your gaining 5% it probably is.  At the present time we have no idea whether your house is warmer because its not as cold outside, your door hasn't been opened as many times today, or your stove works more efficiently a lower cfm across the exchanger.  That said good thinking, you may have something.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 11, 2012)

nhredbird said:


> There going to block-off air flow, which would raise the temp anyway?


 
If any air flow actually gets blocked off (and that likely isn't the case at the moment from what I'm seeing).  But a few measurements would tell us for certain.

What I would like to see is what tj did in the way of measurements on the exhaust temperature side.  Before and after the addition of the heat sinks.


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## jtakeman (Dec 11, 2012)

Yeah it may have slowed the air flow down a little. Hard to say how much with out a flo meter test before and after. Slowing it down may not be such a bad thing. It should allow the air to pickup more heat. All i know is the aluminum I placed in the lil Englander got hot. So its pulling heat from the stove. And as the convection air passed over it the heat is then being transfered to the air. I'd say its gotta increase the effiency, Even if its just a small amount. We did not measure stack temps. That is a sure indicator if the stack temps dropped at the same heat range. 

Yep, The heat sinks are going to add some extra cleaning time to the unit. I'd add cleaning them to the schedule. And probably safe to say it will be close to the same interval as the convection blower wheel cleaning cycle.

jdempsey, Did you cover the hole you cut to put these heatsinks in? I would just to try and keep as much air passing over the heatsinks. Another way would to maybe add a removable face plate that would allow installation of these. Either way with the 10cpm you'd be cutting something. The 25 Ip has a removable grille so I didn't need to mod the stove.

Keep us posted on how it goes.


----------



## jdempsey (Dec 11, 2012)

alltherage said:


> Can you elaborate on your basement setup...how big a 1st floor and how big a basement? finished basement? do you have a openings for the warm air to rise, like an open cellar door etc, or does it radiate?...I know it's been talked about on here a bunch regarding the difficulty in accomplishing what you're doing so i'm interested to hear a success story..thanks


Basement is 900 sq ft. (finished except floor is bare concrete) Upper level is about 1300. I leave the basement door to the stairwell open. I did not have any luck at all getting heat upstairs by doing all the usual things. Alot of you all push or pull heat with fans positioned at different places. Did not work in my situation. I mean i spent hours and days trying to get it to work. I gave up. And decided to try something different.

Now, My setup is not typical.I finally decided to run duct and direct the heat to locations upstairs. Several other guys on here do the same. I did cut holes in the floor to attach the duct. But i did not want to cut random holes all over for return air. But here is what i did bit different.

I installed three 6 inch 425 cfm inline duct fans. They are all connected to the variac in the picture. I can throttle the speed up or down. I usually keep them between 60-80 volts. This provides good flow and cuts down on noise. The fans are connected to a ductstat. This turns them on and off when there is no heat. The metal duct boot that you see on the front of my stove was made by cutting three floor ducts and taping and sealing back together. I applied high temp silicone to the face of the duct to create a rubber seal. I made a latch that secures this to the heat oulet holes on the front of the stove. No air leaks. Or sucking air. Tried this without sealing and the air being sucked was cooling the heated air a bit.

The reason i seal this. Well those inline fans when running almost full speed can suck more powerful than any shop vac. Another reason to throttle those down. The fans can pull so much air the heat exchanger drop temps considerably. I finally got this all running optimally and it works really well.

But if i had to do over i think i would have just put another stove up stairs. Been thinking about an insert for my fireplace. Not really because i need it. But it would be nice having the glowing of a fire upstairs instead of being hidden in the basement. The best advice i have ever got on this forum. Put the stove where you want it or buy a pellet furnace.


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## jdempsey (Dec 11, 2012)

jtakeman said:


> Yeah it may have slowed the air flow down a little. Hard to say how much with out a flo meter test before and after. Slowing it down may not be such a bad thing. It should allow the air to pickup more heat. All i know is the aluminum I placed in the lil Englander got hot. So its pulling heat from the stove. And as the convection air passed over it the heat is then being transfered to the air. I'd say its gotta increase the effiency, Even if its just a small amount. We did not measure stack temps. That is a sure indicator if the stack temps dropped at the same heat range.
> 
> Yep, The heat sinks are going to add some extra cleaning time to the unit. I'd add cleaning them to the schedule. And probably safe to say it will be close to the same interval as the convection blower wheel cleaning cycle.
> 
> ...


Yes i did cover the hole. I use hi temp silicone to a 1/4 inch piece of steel to seal it up. There is still about 3\4 of space between all the heatsinks and top of the metal plate and 1\2 to 1inch space on the sides of the heatsinks. There is plenty of space and im sure no restriction of airflow.

My inline fans help draw the air from the heat exchanger also. So i have a constant push, pull of heat.

Still looking for my temp probe so as to get some measurements.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 11, 2012)

In for one mod in for several don't let Mike see that.


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## alltherage (Dec 11, 2012)

Dang!! nice...you have more patience and drive than me!!  well done


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## TLHinCanada (Dec 11, 2012)

Any time you place something in an enclosed duct you restrict the air flow.  Example: one heat sink 4 sq.in. duct, 40 sq. in. result duct size reduced by 10%.
However if you place all heat sinks in line you will reduce the overall signature.  You are also creating turbulence within the duct this will also lead to a loss in cfms.  My only concern with the project is whether the resulting back pressure will prematurely cause fan failure.  Other than that I am watching with interest, but, I'm pretty sure this has been tried by Englander.  I'm sure this is being monitored by Mike and it would be interesting to hear what he has to say.


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## jdempsey (Dec 11, 2012)

I usually don't run the stove at night. Just set the heat pump on 69. Better sleeping that way. But the stove has been running since 6 am this morn.

As stated earlier im getting the same heat at one feed rate lower. Its been 32 most of the day running feed rate 3. Its now 29 and I bumped up to rate 4. Usually at these temps I'm running on feedrate 5. The temp upstairs is 73.

I'm no engineer but the inline fans would help ease any restrictions as they are pulling the air from the heat exchanger steadily. And thus helping the convection blower.

I work at home in my basement and only sit several feet from the stove and monitor it closely.


----------



## Harvey Schneider (Dec 11, 2012)

TLHinCanada said:


> You are also creating turbulence within the duct this will also lead to a loss in cfms.


The turbulence slows the air slightly and increases its interaction with the walls. This improves heat transfer. I doubt that this will cause any problem for the blower, other than to decrease the amount of air being drawn in for combustion.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 11, 2012)

Harvey Schneider said:


> The turbulence slows the air slightly and increases its interaction with the walls. This improves heat transfer. I doubt that this will cause any problem for the blower, other than to decrease the amount of air being drawn in for combustion.


 
Not on the combustion side Harvey completely on the convection side.


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## nhredbird (Dec 12, 2012)

I,m not to sure if Mike is running to home depot to get boxes of flex, fans, alum angle, digging in computer trash for heat sinks. (Englander Pellet Furnace for 2013) LOL.


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## jtakeman (Dec 12, 2012)

nhredbird said:


> (*Englander Pellet Furnace for 2013*) LOL.


 
I asked about that a few years back. Still nothing in the works. I'd be on the check it out list. But if it doesn't have a real heat exchanger? Then nope!

Figure I can get a couple more years out of my Omega~mini furnace~stove. But I'm looking!


----------



## TLHinCanada (Dec 12, 2012)

nhredbird said:


> I,m not to sure if Mike is running to home depot to get boxes of flex, fans, alum angle, digging in computer trash for heat sinks. (Englander Pellet Furnace for 2013) LOL.


A company the size of Englander has probably tried putting heat sinks (simple cheap cast iron) in the convection duct.  The reason they don't is the one that interests me (and they are not likely to tell us).  Was it a minimal increase in heat (say less than 5%), or an increase in production cost per unit that nixed it.  I believe that there higher end units have tubes which are more efficient but cost more to produce.  For an increase of 5% I may be willing to try it.


----------



## jtakeman (Dec 12, 2012)

TLHinCanada said:


> A company the size of Englander has probably tried putting heat sinks (simple cheap cast iron) in the convection duct. The reason they don't is the one that interests me (and they are not likely to tell us). Was it a minimal increase in heat (say less than 5%), or an increase in production cost per unit that nixed it. I believe that there higher end units have tubes which are more efficient but cost more to produce. For an increase of 5% I may be willing to try it.


 
Yes, Tubes would be more costly. But accordian would be a minimal cost adder. IMHO, They need to do something to increase the area of the heat exchangers. "Every little bit helps" rule should apply here! Even if its a minor cost adder.


----------



## TLHinCanada (Dec 12, 2012)

There is probably a table/chart put out by the fan manufacturer that gives you the cfm value for the duct size (area).  On the stove we have 9 speeds on the fan, you would be looking for the average duct size that fits with all the speeds.  It would show as nonlinear on a graph, over laying the 9 speeds would give you a peak efficiency.  Putting an accordion would decrease the size of the duct and increase length. Or we could just spend more money and buy a stove with a more efficient heat exchanger, but that wouldn't be much fun.


----------



## Harvey Schneider (Dec 12, 2012)

TLHinCanada said:


> The reason they don't is the one that interests me


 
There are several things that keep companies from implementing product "improvements".
High volume products are extremely sensitive to cost of goods sold. That cost includes not only the cost of materials, but also includes assembly labor. While popping a hole and dropping some objects into the air path may work for an individual it isn't a manufacturable design.Then in addition to cost of goods considerations there are design test and certification issues. Running a product through test labs (UL, CSA, ETL, etc.) is a very expensive endeavour. I have taken many of my designs through the process and have always been astounded at the final total cost.
When it comes down to it, Engineering and product design are not profit centers, they are cost centers. Marginal improvements in the performance of a successful product are unlikely to gain the approval of the people responsible for seeing that the company remain profitable. Will a 5% improvement in efficiency cause enough of an increase in sales to cover the cost of development and yield a return on investment profit?
That is not to say that improvement of a stove is not a worthwhile thing to do. You have to  keep in mind, however, that you invalidate all of the safety testing that has been done on the product and probably are violating local codes as well as voiding your home owners insurance. If you feel that your smoke detector and CO detector give you enough time for a comfortable escape, who am I to suggest that you are foolish to cut holes in your stove and place objects of unknown melting temperature in contact with a wall of the fire box (most aluminum alloys melt at between 865 - 1240 deg F)​.
Nothing is ever as simple as it seems on first glance.
I am just trying to be the voice of reason.


----------



## smoke show (Dec 12, 2012)

Harvey Schneider said:


> I am just trying to be the voice of reason.


----------



## mepellet (Dec 12, 2012)

TLHinCanada said:


> There is probably a table/chart put out by the fan manufacturer that gives you the cfm value for the duct size (area). On the stove we have 9 speeds on the fan, you would be looking for the average duct size that fits with all the speeds. It would show as nonlinear on a graph, over laying the 9 speeds would give you a peak efficiency. Putting an accordion would decrease the size of the duct and increase length. Or we could just spend more money and buy a stove with a more efficient heat exchanger, but that wouldn't be much fun.


 
Fan manufacturers do not produce any tables/charts that gives you airflow (cfm) related to duct size.  The longer the duct run, the more resistance there is on the fan (external static pressure) resulting in lower airflow. They should however have "fan curves" that plot the cfm vs. total external static pressure.


----------



## TLHinCanada (Dec 12, 2012)

All industries give out specs on their product, while there are formulas available to calculate the size, rpm, and volume no one has the time or inclination to calculate them.  When I design a water or filtration plant I'm buying a product that is worth millions.  All engineering disciplines have associations that publish data sheets.  Harvey Schneider is right when he says it may not be economical to produce. He is also right when he points out that by altering the stove you remove your home insurance liability.  As a exercise for increasing your stoves efficiency this thread is interesting, but, it should be carried out in a manner were no one is at risk from the out come of the experiment.  All test should be carried out in the appropriate safe environment.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 12, 2012)

There are published cfm ratings given various static pressures, places like Grainger list them in the details for the blowers.


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## stoveguy2esw (Dec 12, 2012)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> In for one mod in for several don't let Mike see that.


 

too late


----------



## Harvey Schneider (Dec 13, 2012)

alltherage said:


> Dang!! nice...you have more patience and drive than me!! well done


Or maybe it's too much time on his hands.


----------



## jtakeman (Dec 13, 2012)

stoveguy2esw said:


> too late


 
Any updates on a pellet furnace? If you check the threads there are a few of us cheating and a furnace would be ideal so we are not frowned upon. Proof they might be a warranted unit, Just not as much of a sale as the standard stove.

Maybe do a head count and see how many would be interested. I'll raise my hand right now for ya! Forced air version for me.


----------



## stoveguy2esw (Dec 13, 2012)

jtakeman said:


> Any updates on a pellet furnace? If you check the threads there are a few of us cheating and a furnace would be ideal so we are not frowned upon. Proof they might be a warranted unit, Just not as much of a sale as the standard stove.
> 
> Maybe do a head count and see how many would be interested. I'll raise my hand right now for ya! Forced air version for me.


 
we actually did build a forced hot air pellet furnace for a while just didnt see enough sales to keep it. they worked pretty well though.

we have to be able to "justify" carrying a model simply by sales numbers. if we get enough sales on a unit it generally stays in production. now the "sales " i refer to are at the wholesale level between us and our vendors. not necessarily from customers directly. though i do kinda keep my "ear to the ground" on such things and ive brought it up in the past what it really takes is for the stores to make some noise to us asking for the  item.

honestly i wish we still carried one or introduced a new one


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## jtakeman (Dec 13, 2012)

stoveguy2esw said:


> we actually did build a forced hot air pellet furnace for a while just didnt see enough sales to keep it. they worked pretty well though.
> 
> we have to be able to "justify" carrying a model simply by sales numbers. if we get enough sales on a unit it generally stays in production. now the "sales " i refer to are at the wholesale level between us and our vendors. not necessarily from customers directly. though i do kinda keep my "ear to the ground" on such things and ive brought it up in the past what it really takes is for the stores to make some noise to us asking for the item.
> 
> honestly i wish we still carried one or introduced a new one


 
I think demsey is looking at the Drotlet 65, Just sayin!  If my Omega craps out(not worried-but don't like being teased either) I'd be another looking at the Drotlet 65.

Not all of us can afford the high dollar units. And not many come up for sale used. So we are left with a US Stove option of cheat like heck to do what we need. I would think it would be a slow moving item, But look at US Stove for example(probably your main competitor because its a boxstore stove). They still have a unit available, Not something I'd conceder due its size and apitite. I would rather trust an Englander just sayin! I do understand. Hopefully you'll keep tabs as more and more do the switch from oil to pellets.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 13, 2012)

Looks like Mike is saying lobby the hardware and feed chains and big boxes to carry pellet furnaces.

Meanwhile, I'm just going to work on the insulation side and read the mail here.

Maybe by the time we need something simple (not getting any younger), the price will be reasonable or we can just heat the place with a stove using a lot fewer bags of pellets.


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## stoveguy2esw (Dec 13, 2012)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> *Looks like Mike is saying lobby the hardware and feed chains and big boxes to carry pellet furnaces.*
> 
> Meanwhile, I'm just going to work on the insulation side and read the mail here.
> 
> Maybe by the time we need something simple (not getting any younger), the price will be reasonable or we can just heat the place with a stove using a lot fewer bags of pellets.


 

yeah thats it. our products especially the introduction of new ones is driven in a big way by what the stores (at corporate level) want. if the public asks them for a certain product enough they will look for a supplier of that product so they can sell it to the customers , its "demand and supply" at that point. if lowes or depot who buy millions of dollars worth of product from us want a certain type of stove we will obviously be really interested in supplying it.


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## jtakeman (Dec 13, 2012)

Yes Bear, I'll shutup now! But I was trying the squeeky wheel trick! I need grease. 

Have you tried taking to managment at a boxstore? I aint going there, I'll just find something on my own thank you! The replies could probably start a reality show on Discovery, TLC or something.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 13, 2012)

jtakeman said:


> Yes Bear, I'll shutup now! But I was trying the squeeky wheel trick! I need grease.
> 
> Have you tried taking to managment at a boxstore? I aint going there, I'll just find something on my own thank you! The replies could probably start a reality show on Discovery, TLC or something.


 
I understand that your local garage can fix you right up with some grease.

Yes I have talked to the local level management just as a courtesy before going over their heads.  Funny what happens when it goes down hill.  Always give them a chance before lowering the boom.  

Write a letter to corporate head quarters.  I know all about the so called management at the store level, bypass them.  Those forever stamps can reduce the frustration level of dealing with the store folks.

Let's see a reality show yes and the threads on here could as well.


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## imacman (Dec 13, 2012)

Hey, the "Fast n Loud" guys buy old junkers and fix them up for a reality show.....do I see one coming based on used pellet stoves? (starring Pook as "Aaron" and Jay as "Richard"......you just KNOW Pook has a beard like that, right?).

Anyone have a good name for the program? "Burned & Battered"?


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## smoke show (Dec 13, 2012)

wierd and geeky?


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## imacman (Dec 13, 2012)

And the name of their business....."Ash Piggy's Workshop"


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## jtakeman (Dec 13, 2012)

Me and pook don't look notin like dat! 




Me in my lab some years ago!


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## stoveguy2esw (Dec 13, 2012)

imacman said:


> Hey, the "Fast n Loud" guys buy old junkers and fix them up for a reality show.....do I see one coming based on used pellet stoves? (starring Pook as "Aaron" and Jay as "Richard"......you just KNOW Pook has a beard like that, right?).
> 
> Anyone have a good name for the program? "Burned & Battered"?


 

pookie would have a beard like that due to confusion over the settings on his electric razor

as for names for that show maybe " choked and smoked"


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## jtakeman (Dec 13, 2012)

imacman said:


> Anyone have a good name for the program? "Burned & Battered"?


 
Eeek! Well I have been clunked by the skillet a few(100) times, Guess I'm the battered one! 



smoke show said:


> wierd and geeky?


  Awe man!



stoveguy2esw said:


> as for names for that show maybe " choked and smoked"


 
Ouch! Dang I can see it for your old buddy ol pal pook, But man what da heck I ever do to you!


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## stoveguy2esw (Dec 13, 2012)

jtakeman said:


> Eeek! Well I have been clunked by the skillet a few(100) times, Guess I'm the battered one!
> 
> 
> Awe man!
> ...


 

was picking on my old buddy pook, as for the name on the show, understand the "fast and loud" guys arent getting stuff thats in pristine condition to start with , i figure with pellet stoves when they arrive at the "choked and smoked" world headquarters they would be "choked with ash" and "smoked up"  then you and pookie would magically convert them to a customized tricked out lean mean burnin machine, the flip it for profit quickly as a customer will just magically appear at your door wanting just what you just finished as he has dreamed of owning one all his life


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## jtakeman (Dec 13, 2012)

stoveguy2esw said:


> was picking on my old buddy pook, as for the name on the show, understand the "fast and loud" guys arent getting stuff thats in pristine condition to start with , i figure with pellet stoves when they arrive at the "choked and smoked" world headquarters they would be "choked with ash" and "smoked up" then you and pookie would magically convert them to a customized tricked out lean mean burnin machine, the flip it for profit quickly as a customer will just magically appear at your door wanting just what you just finished as he has dreamed of owning one all his life


 
Still not gonna get ya back on my xmas list! I see rain deer poo on your front step! 

Our old pal pook, Wonder how- On second though!


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## imacman (Dec 13, 2012)

I wonder if Don2222 is really Pook in "disguise"?

Oh wait, can't be.......Pook never used so many exclamation!! marks in his posts.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 13, 2012)

Look you folks should be cleaning your stoves so they don't get featured on "Choked and  Smoked" this evening at 9PM Eastern 8 PM Central

I just finished that weekly chore and am now going to get some lunch.


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## jtakeman (Dec 13, 2012)

imacman said:


> I wonder if Don2222 is really Pook in "disguise"?
> 
> Oh wait, can't be.......Pook never used so many exclamation!! marks in his posts.


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## heat seeker (Dec 13, 2012)

Name of show: Guys in Heat!


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## imacman (Dec 13, 2012)

jtakeman said:


> View attachment 84934


Can't be.....not enough "!!" in that pic.


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## imacman (Dec 13, 2012)

heat seeker said:


> Name of show: Guys in Heat!


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