# my insulation project, not exactly as planned



## OhioBurner© (Apr 5, 2015)

So I set out to insulate and re-finish my old cape cod upstairs. It was always very drafty, cold in winter and hot in summer. It is divided into two halves (bedrooms). 1 bedroom had been recently renovated and insulation added. The other side was all original plaster and lath from what I could tell, and nothing was insulated except the floor of the knee wall attic on the sides. There was the laundry room below it that was also in need of rehab, so I set out to rip out all the old stuff including unused stairs that went up from the laundry room area, air seal, insulate, and put up new drywall (and new knee walls and studs where needed). I planned to do away with the 'knee wall attics' and make the entire space conditioned, sealing and insulating against the roof and what little bit of outer wall remained. I'd put up an new knee wall, but it wall all be conditioned space, with just some storage behind knee wall.

So this is what it looked when I started:






And after some demo:





I knew I'd run into some issues with it being built in 1900 but wow, nothing straight, boards everywhere, stuff over top of stuff, gaps and holes... Anyway one issue I found which explains partly why heat has trouble getting up there... when the refinished the main level they studded up and built a new ceiling under the old plaster ceiling. And they insulated it. I don't think there is any easy way to get out all that insulation. Hopefully a couple through floor registers and the one open doorway to the addition on the gable end will bring enough heat.

For example:




Blue line represents where the new floor for the upstairs will go. Between blue and red line are the original beams of the home, with a plaster and lath ceiling attached under the red line. Then the green line is the new drywall ceiling they put up, and there is fb batts between the red and green lines, and they go as far as I can see.

Also to make air sealing harder...




Here is the one gable end the adjoins the 1990 2-story addition (the plastic bags taped up is the doorway to the second story hallway). It looks like when they did the addition they left everything there including most of the original wood siding. I could just about slide my hand between the old wood siding and the newly studded walls. Where its missing you can see the back of the drywall from the opposite side of wall. It will be hard but I can try and air seal between them, but the issue is this gap goes down into the main level, and well that's all finished and not much I can do about it. I would imagine if air can get in that cavity anywhere, its free to circulate around the entire end of the house there, which is an interior wall now so that cold air is infiltrating right in the middle of the house. I can confirm in the basement under this wall there is often a strong breeze blowing down from within the wall, and there is at least one stud bay I've noticed on the inside where an IR gun shows that stud bay 10-15F cooler than the surrounding wall. I think its pretty hopeless to air seal this. 

More problems...




Right above that doorway at the one gable end take a look at this. A tad bit of fire damage. The ridge beam (is that the proper term?) is severed 2 foot from the end, as well as several purlins (though the purlins look cut, like maybe there was a chimney up through this end?




The metal roof was new in '07, a year before I moved in. So they obviously knew of it and just slapped a new roof on over top. I'm not sure if this is something critical, I didn't really want to get into a massive repair, I allocated about $2k for insulation and refinishing these rooms, doing all the work myself. Maybe I can just clean it up a bit and insulate it and continue on.

Funny thing though, before I had actually got to that point and just started the demolition and the neighbor (previous owner) came over to see what I was up to. They said they had 2 or 3 chimney fires years ago, though she mentioned it was from the other chimney which is in the next room over.

Now that I have most of the demo and clean up done and I'm really studying the structure, I see some other potential issues. For one, the roof trusses are not all equidistant. I mean I bought several rolls of 24" wide R-13 batts. I measured a couple before I bought, but now they are all exposed and I measured them all. The distance between the roof rafters are: 19.5", 20.5", 21", 20", 24", 20", 18.5" and 22.75", on the currently exposed ones. And they aren’t straight, measuring 1-2" different in width from the top to the bottom. Also the size of the rafters seem to taper, most at the bottom are around 3.5" tall while at the top 2.75". I've never put down insulation before is this a big deal can I stuff R13 in there still? My other thought was since I was going to put down a very thin foil faced EPS sheet first, and a thick layer of EPS on top of everything (right under drywall) when its done, maybe I should just use EPS all the way through. Will be a lot of cutting to shape though. But I plan on spay foam sealing all the edges (between foam board and trusses), so it doesn't have to be an exact fit. problem I see with all rigid foam board is the tapering of the rafters, 3.5" thick of EPS will be flush at near the sides of the roof but at the peak the EPS will protrude 3/4" from the rafter. I suppose that would still be ok though?

But now I'm wondering if I should be ripping all the roof off and putting up new 2x6's and sheathing or something like that.  Which would be beyond my ability and more than I was going to spend for sure! Unless maybe I can put up some new boards from underneath without taking the whole roof off or something like that.

At least its a good time of year to have half the house torn up and air leaking right in. I am somewhat flexible on time, I can live without 2 bedrooms and already moved my son to a downstairs room, but the laundry room will be missed. Can always run a garden hose and extension cord to the washmachine outside lol.

If anyone has any advice I'm all ears.


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## ironpony (Apr 5, 2015)

that is some major structural damage from what I can see from the pictures. there is a lot of framing to repair, I am usually " no big deal" because of my background in building but that makes me go WOW. Where in central Ohio?


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## Babaganoosh (Apr 5, 2015)

I agree, I think it's time to call in a professional. For what it's worth I try to do most things on my house myself, sometimes though it's not worth it. If it were me, I'd start calling around.


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## semipro (Apr 6, 2015)

As far as how to insulate the roof once you repair this post has some good info. https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/insulation-calculations.136769/ 
Good luck.


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## gzecc (Apr 6, 2015)

Old owners should be tracked down and sued. Place should have been rebuilt after the fire. See if they got an insurance claim.


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## vinny11950 (Apr 6, 2015)

Yikes.  Good thing you found it.

Like, Gzecc says, see if you can find evidence the previous owners knew about this and did not disclose it.

Good luck.


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## dougstove (Apr 6, 2015)

Unless the metal roof is slick enough to shed all snow, I think there is a risk of collapse under a significant amount of wet snow.


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## claydogg84 (Apr 6, 2015)

vinny11950 said:


> Yikes.  Good thing you found it.
> 
> Like, Gzecc says, see if you can find evidence the previous owners knew about this and did not disclose it.
> 
> Good luck.



When I purchased my home the seller was given a choice to either disclose any issues with the home, or pay $500. If I had to speculate, I would say most people pay the money. I'm not sure if the disclosure paperwork is a NY thing or what, but I would imagine all states have a similar process in place. If they in fact signed that there were abaolutely no known issues with the home, I would do some research as you clearly have a case here.


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## OhioBurner© (Apr 6, 2015)

gzecc said:


> Old owners should be tracked down and sued. Place should have been rebuilt after the fire. See if they got an insurance claim.


Well, the old owners built a house a couple hundred feet away, and are very friendly. However they gave it to thier daughter who lived in it a few years, replaced the roof, and then put it for sale. I've never talked to the daughter, but her folks I talk to occasionally and we're good neighbors. I'll have to mention it to them to see their reaction.

I don't know how to find out if an insurance claim was filed, how would one go about doing that (well other than asking them, which may or may not yield truth).



ironpony said:


> that is some major structural damage from what I can see from the pictures. there is a lot of framing to repair, I am usually " no big deal" because of my background in building but that makes me go WOW. Where in central Ohio?



The center of Ohio... Centerburg. If you are at all close by, and have a background in this stuff, shoot me a PM I'm sure we can work something out and I hate just calling random contractors in the phone book.



dougstove said:


> Unless the metal roof is slick enough to shed all snow, I think there is a risk of collapse under a significant amount of wet snow.


Its been since '07 but that doesnt mean it might have problems any time. What makes me cringe is knowing how many times I've walked over that area getting to the chimneys. But yeah, its the peak of the roof I've never seen any snow accumulate there, mainly lower on the roof.



claydogg84 said:


> If they in fact signed that there were abaolutely no known issues with the home, I would do some research as you clearly have a case here.


An inspection report had many pages of issues (but I don't recall any of fire damage). This is an old house and we knew that. But I didn't figure there would be so many covered up issues. We also found a crumbling foundation. They covered everything up with a coat of mortor that is all crumbling and falling off now. That's a whole other story.


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## claydogg84 (Apr 6, 2015)

Ohio, do you remember any sort of disclosure form when you had the closing?


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## claydogg84 (Apr 6, 2015)

OhioBurner© said:


> An inspection report had many pages of issues (but I don't recall any of fire damage). This is an old house and we knew that. But I didn't figure there would be so many covered up issues. We also found a crumbling foundation. They covered everything up with a coat of mortor that is all crumbling and falling off now. That's a whole other story.



The inspection was something different. This is the form I'm talking about here in NY. If they don't disclose all the information and complete the form they must take $500 off the agreed price.

https://www.dos.ny.gov/forms/licensing/1614-a.pdf


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## Ashful (Apr 6, 2015)

gzecc said:


> Old owners should be tracked down and sued. Place should have been rebuilt after the fire. See if they got an insurance claim.


Dealt with a good bit of stuff like this on our current house.  Seller flat out lied in seller's disclosure, denying knowledge of items he had personally changed on the property, and giving false answers to items about which we had specifically inquired.  Debated going the legal route, but in the end decided it was more aggravation than it was worth.  To what end?  Spend time in court and money on lawyers, with the associated sleep loss and stress, for a relatively small return?


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## claydogg84 (Apr 6, 2015)

Ashful said:


> Dealt with a good bit of stuff like this on our current house.  Seller flat out lied in seller's disclosure, denying knowledge of items he had personally changed on the property, and giving false answers to items about which we had specifically inquired.  Debated going the legal route, but in the end decided it was more aggravation than it was worth.  To what end?  Spend time in court and money on lawyers, with the associated sleep loss and stress, for a relatively small return?



Depending on how bad the roof system is this could easily be in the thousands of dollars. You could always take them to small claims court, where a lawyer isn't needed. But I do agree, the aggravation as well as time off of work can be troublesome.


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## Ashful (Apr 6, 2015)

I would not put myself thru that sort of aggravation over thousands of dollars.  Tens of thousands... maybe.  Everyone has their own pain for gain threshold.


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## Clarkbug (Apr 6, 2015)

OhioBurner© said:


> An inspection report had many pages of issues (but I don't recall any of fire damage). This is an old house and we knew that. But I didn't figure there would be so many covered up issues. We also found a crumbling foundation. They covered everything up with a coat of mortor that is all crumbling and falling off now. That's a whole other story.



Curious how you are dealing with /dealt with the foundation issue.

Love and hate old houses at the same time.  They take a lot of abuse from owners , but some days I feel like they deserve it....


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## OhioBurner© (Apr 6, 2015)

Clarkbug said:


> Curious how you are dealing with /dealt with the foundation issue.
> 
> Love and hate old houses at the same time.  They take a lot of abuse from owners , but some days I feel like they deserve it....



I feel the same. I love the character they have, they seem to have a soul whereas new build just seem like empty shells to me. However that 'character' makes them impossible to be perfect, insulated well, sealed up, etc.

Well I go into it briefly. The original part of house had a cellar dug out I think at a later date. When they dug it out they did not put in block or anyhting under the existing foundation walls, they just dug up to that point and then put in a sloped retaining wall on the interior to keep the dirt in place. Its mostly fine still except for one end, where crumbling is bad, dirt is falling into the cellar, and an groundhog dug right into it (pipes froze that winter!). Called a few places and was quoted $20-30k  Don't want to sink that kind of money into this place. Another fellow said he would even mess with it, that I'd probably have to rebuild the entire floor since the timbers are in such bad shape and supported all over with steel post jacks. He suggested I build a footer inboard a couple feet, with a few layers of block up to the height of the original foundation, back fill with gravel and draining pipe to the sump pump, then cap it off with cement. Might be hard to explain in writing. But if I had to do a new foundation, and a new roof, I think I'd just tear down this place! I'd be better off with new construction in the long run, but I plan on getting out of this place as soon as I can. No way I could tear it down and rebuild and get back what I put into it. I should have just left the old uninsulated plaster walled upstairs alone.  Was just trying to make it and the laundry room less of an eye sore to sell it, as well as add some insulation in for the next couple/few winters that I own it.



Ashful said:


> I would not put myself thru that sort of aggravation over thousands of dollars. Tens of thousands... maybe. Everyone has their own pain for gain threshold.


Agreed. I'd not want the hassle if it ends up being a few thousand dollars, especially consider they live next door and help me out mowing and plowing snow when my tractors are broke down. I can't see this running into the tens of thousands, even if I had to pull the roof off (I assume I can re-use the metal roofing) and put in new trusses. But I guess I'll find out soon. Were on;y talking one bedroom here, and well its only used for storage currently.


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## moey (Apr 6, 2015)

Hard to tell how bad the fire damage is from the pictures. It looks bad but you only take pictures of the bad spots. I would consider shoring up the the burned up areas. I would suggest using 2 inch XPS sealed along the edges for the insulation. Its only R-10 but sealed and installed properly it may be better then what is in the rest of your house. Dont use bats they will work very poorly on the slopes if at all. 

What contractor is willing to put up a roof on top of that


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## gzecc (Apr 7, 2015)

Long shot but it looks like there may have been a chimney there, where the new doorway currently is. Was this a bad chimney fire possibly. Show the previous owners the pics. See their reaction.


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## OhioBurner© (Apr 7, 2015)

moey said:


> Hard to tell how bad the fire damage is from the pictures. It looks bad but you only take pictures of the bad spots. I would consider shoring up the the burned up areas. I would suggest using 2 inch XPS sealed along the edges for the insulation. Its only R-10 but sealed and installed properly it may be better then what is in the rest of your house. Dont use bats they will work very poorly on the slopes if at all.


Yeah its only that one spot really, effecting the last two trusses just the area in a couple foot diameter. There is some black marks here and there throughout the roof but nothing bad. Yeah I am realizing the batts just aren't going to work well. Unfortunately already bought them, but I assume they are returnable. Going to be a lot of measuring and cutting with foam board isulation since all the rafter bays are different, but I assume I can cut them undersize a bit and just seal up the ends with spray can foam.




moey said:


> What contractor is willing to put up a roof on top of that


That's what I'm wondering. Since there is no sheathing its impossible they were not aware of the damage.




gzecc said:


> Long shot but it looks like there may have been a chimney there, where the new doorway currently is. Was this a bad chimney fire possibly. Show the previous owners the pics. See their reaction.


That is what I was thinking. Looks like a cut out for a chimney, and all the charring is worse right at that end. No way I don't believe a chimney fire from the current chimney 15+ feet away could cause so much more damage there without hardly a trace in between.


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## gzecc (Apr 7, 2015)

OhioBurner© said:


> Yeah its only that one spot really, effecting the last two trusses just the area in a couple foot diameter. There is some black marks here and there throughout the roof but nothing bad. Yeah I am realizing the batts just aren't going to work well. Unfortunately already bought them, but I assume they are returnable. Going to be a lot of measuring and cutting with foam board isulation since all the rafter bays are different, but I assume I can cut them undersize a bit and just seal up the ends with spray can foam.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
No real contractor would put a metal roof on such a structure. Had to be the homeowner or one of their good friends to do such awful work. Unless maybe they paid a lot of cash and no receipt! Guess there's all kinds.


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## Lake Girl (Apr 7, 2015)

OhioBurner© said:


> I don't know how to find out if an insurance claim was filed



Could start by checking the local fire department for records ... depends on how long ago the fire was, it may be a computerized record system for which you can just enter the address.

What plan do you have to allow for air movement between roof and insulation (from eaves to roof vent)?  http://www.homedepot.ca/product/raft-r-mate-attic-rafter-vents-rigid-extruded-polystyrene/925601


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## Ashful (Apr 7, 2015)

I'm insulating a space very similar to this now, minus the fire damage.  Best solution I could find was cutting 1" Dow blue board to fit each rafter bay, tacked to purlins, then spray foam in place with 3.5" of closed cell.  I installed UltraVent under ridge cap and in soffits, for ventilation under roof deck, where condensation is likely if not vented.

Perfect air sealing, ventilation under roof, R30 insulation... hard to beat!


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## OhioBurner© (Apr 7, 2015)

Lake Girl said:


> Could start by checking the local fire department for records ... depends on how long ago the fire was, it may be a computerized record system for which you can just enter the address.


Now that I think about it my guess is prior to the 1990 addition, since I believe there used to be a chimney there (that's what probably caused the fire) that was removed when they did the addition. So I highly doubt there were electronic records. If that is the case that damage has been there and holding for a long time. I will say that old plaster wall/ceiling was one tough wall. Probably supporting the roof. Now I removed it, it does seem much less sound.



Lake Girl said:


> What plan do you have to allow for air movement between roof and insulation (from eaves to roof vent)?  http://www.homedepot.ca/product/raft-r-mate-attic-rafter-vents-rigid-extruded-polystyrene/925601


My plan is no ventilation http://www.energyauditingblog.com/unvented-attics/. I lean towards if you can't ventilate properly, then don't ventilate at all. However if I have to do a major reconstruction of the roof, then maybe I can add proper ventilation. The current house was never ventilated, there are no eave vents, and no ridge vents. The place was so leaky though that condensation didn't seem to be a problem. Heating bills are though.




Ashful said:


> I'm insulating a space very similar to this now, minus the fire damage. Best solution I could find was cutting 1" Dow blue board to fit each rafter bay, tacked to purlins, then spray foam in place with 3.5" of closed cell. I installed UltraVent under ridge cap and in soffits, for ventilation under roof deck, where condensation is likely if not vented.


How deep were your rafter bays? Did this 3.5" of closed cell go over the truss too or just to the edge? My current trusses are only 3" or a hair less near the peak ( https://www.hearth.com/talk/attachments/img_9109-1000-jpg.156768/ ), and that's with no baffles or anything taking up space. That doesn't give me much room for insulation! What I am leaning towards now is to put in some EPS board, first layer probably foil faced under the purlins, spray foam sealed around all edges, total thickness of about 3.5", then cover over top of it and the rafters with another 1.5" thick EPS and drywall on that. Should get me about 5" thick of EPS (R20ish?) which is great compared to the zero I had, but also being air sealed will help immensely, at least the upstairs.


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## moey (Apr 7, 2015)

You can always add a shim to accommodate thicker insulation. Unless it takes away to much headroom but if your 1 inch short or something.


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## Ashful (Apr 7, 2015)

Sounds like a plan, Ohio.  My rafters are 2x6 full rough, so the 3.5" spray foam on 1" foam board is not an issue.  I personally wouldn't want to cut and fit 4x as much foam board as I'm already doing, so if I were in your shoes, I'd be doing 3" of spray hot knifed to the joists on 1/2" foam board.


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## Clarkbug (Apr 8, 2015)

OhioBurner© said:


> Was just trying to make it and the laundry room less of an eye sore to sell it, as well as add some insulation in for the next couple/few winters that I own it.



That sums up every project I have ever started.  You always find what you dont expect, and its always super expensive or labor intensive to fix it seems.

For your foundation, make sure the grading outside the house is good for proper drainage.  That seems to be the cause of many problems, including some at my place.  I have a rubble stone wall below grade with bricks on top, and the bricks are starting to become unhappy.  Time to call in the mason who likes to work on old stuff...  I'm sure it won't be cheap.


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## OhioBurner© (Apr 8, 2015)

dougstove said:


> Unless the metal roof is slick enough to shed all snow, I think there is a risk of collapse under a significant amount of wet snow.


After giving this some more thought, even though this damage could have been there for decades, the roof was probably being supported by the plaster and lath walls. That was one solid structure, now down the room is noticeably bouncy. I bet if I walked on top of the roof there now I might have problems. The ceiling, slope, and a few inches down the side was thick with wire mesh. It took me a couple days to tear it down, having to cut passes between all the trusses with a sawzall. 

I'm thinking I can cut out the last couple feet of most of the damaged purlins and slide some new ones in there, just over the last two damaged trusses. Then reinforce the charred trusses with one or perhaps 2 2x4's. The trusses are pretty close to the same depth although a little less at the top (A hair under 3"), but I can't see an extra 1/2" causing too much issues. 



Clarkbug said:


> That sums up every project I have ever started.  You always find what you don't expect, and its always super expensive or labor intensive to fix it seems.


Yeah I now know good things aren't usually found when you tear down 100yr old walls! Generally its only bad stuff you find!


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## sloeffle (Apr 8, 2015)

OhioBurner© said:


> The center of Ohio... Centerburg. If you are at all close by, and have a background in this stuff, shoot me a PM I'm sure we can work something out and I hate just calling random contractors in the phone book.


I am about 10 minutes away from you. I am on the north side of 656 barely in Morrow County. I had an Amish crew out of Fredricktown put an addition on my house a few years ago. And I had a different Amish contractor re-roof my house a few years ago. They both do really good work. If you are interested in their info shoot me a PM.


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