# Monitoring Electricity Use...



## maple1

Since the other thread got locked and I can't update there...


...my E-Matic whole-house energy monitor showed in the mail today (same as the Efergy, I'd say - even see the word Efergy in the manual in a few places). Just got done setting it up. I got out our last power bill, divided our total bill $ amount by kwh used and input that into the monitor for $/kwh. It's now saying I'm using $0.15/hour of electricity. I get the bill out again and divide the total amount of the bill by hours in the billing period, and get $0.16/hour. So it appears to be working. 

It will be interesting keeping an eye on this thing as the boiler runs (it's not now), the fridge & freezer cycle on & off, the TV gets used, etc. etc.. Now I'm waiting on a cheap Ebay Kill-A-Watt device to arrive from China to check out a couple more things in more detail. It would maybe be nicer if this thing sampled more often than 10 seconds (real nice if it was constant real time) - but I can make do with this.

It also has temp & humidity levels displayed, which is a nice unexpected touch - I almost bought a second humidistat the other day but didn't at the last second for some reason. Which is a bit spooky...


----------



## Highbeam

I don't want to monitor cost per hour, not very important. I would suggest you monitor watts as a more direct measure of what is turning on and off. Even makes sense when you see a 4500 load come on and realize that is is your water heater with a 4500 watt element.

What is your base load with everything supposedly turned off but all the breakers still on. No fridge, no lights, etc.? In other words, how low can you go? I've gotten down to 160 watts.


----------



## maple1

Not sure yet, need more play time. I also don't really plan to monitor by $ either, I was just playing with the numbers while setting it up to see if it made sense compared to what my power bill was telling me I was using. Already got one shocker when my laser printer spooled up- mentioned that one in the diy printer thread.


----------



## woodgeek

I put my efergy e2 up a couple days ago.  Even with everything I know of idle, I am at 360W.


----------



## semipro

Highbeam, woodgeek; 
Are you establishing base load by unplugging everything you can and turning off everything else or are you leaving things plugged in but turned off?


----------



## maple1

It's not even been a day yet, but watching this thing is already becoming addictive.

When I got up a couple hours ago, it was around 450 watts - that's the quietest time for power use here. We've got 2 satellite receivers that are on all the time, my computer monitor was on (box went to sleep), and there's a lot of stuff plugged into the power bar at the entertainment unit. Also a couple of UPSs that are plugged in all the time.

Found my first target though. Have two 'standard' 48" double flourescent fixtures in my office. Never thought about them before because, well, they're flourescent. So far I'm seeing they're showing around 200 watts when on, and they're on a lot. Like, at least 12 hours a day most days. I got a few LED bulbs a couple months ago @ $3.99 when there was a big push on them here, I think I'll find a couple fixtures to put them in & take the tubes down. That should be a $10/month cut on the bill just there. Also, I usually leave my computer on 24/7 leaving the power saving stuff in the software to shut it down when I'm away from it for a while. It doesn't always shut it down, and when it doesn't there's another 240 watts or so.


----------



## semipro

maple1,
I'd be really interested in knowing whether removing a bulb from a fluorescent fixture with multiple bulbs actually decreases power consumption and by how much.  
At work most offices seem overly bright and many occupants remove bulbs to decrease light levels.  
Of course, if you have the older T12 fixtures with magnetic ballasts then the results might not transfer to the newer electronic t-8 fixtures.


----------



## maple1

Couldn't resist trying that, since you mentioned it & they're right above my head.

I think these are T12's - they're almost 20 years old. When I take one bulb out, it does cut it down by 25% (one out of 4 bulbs total), but the other bulb in the fixture barely lights up. So can't do that, with these ones at least.

The bulbs are 40 watt bulbs, but they seem to be using at least 50 watts each according to the monitor.


----------



## Redbarn

Thanks for the info guys. I just ordered an efegy e2. 
Our electric use has climbed over the last year and I need to find out why.


----------



## semipro

maple1 said:


> Couldn't resist trying that, since you mentioned it & they're right above my head.
> 
> I think these are T12's - they're almost 20 years old. When I take one bulb out, it does cut it down by 25% (one out of 4 bulbs total), but the other bulb in the fixture barely lights up. So can't do that, with these ones at least.
> 
> The bulbs are 40 watt bulbs, but they seem to be using at least 50 watts each according to the monitor.


Thanks for doing that.  I was hoping you would.  
The ballasts are almost certainly sucking up some of that power.  You can usually feel the heat being produced by them. 
I'm not sure which T-12 fixtures you have but some can easily be retrofitted with T-8 ballasts and bulbs and this should pay off in energy savings.  Depending on the fixture it may be easier to replace the whole thing though. 

If you do the retrofit or replace the fixtures it would be great to know the effect of removing bulbs.


----------



## maple1

The fixtures are just the cheap 48" twin tubes. They're T-12s. 

I just finished unwiring them at the feeds and cobbling up some temporary key fixtures so I could get some regular bulbs up there to see what the room would be like lit differently. I've got a '60w equivalent' 830 lumen LED in one, and a '100w equivalent' 1700 lumen CFL in the other - all I had to pick from on the shelf. Gotta say, so far, I miss the bright white light of those tubes in this room with those two bulbs up there - not sure I could get used to the yellower light but I'll give it a few days before I decide. The walls are brownish, might have something to do with it.

Time to investigate bulb choices I guess - including changing to T-8. I've got 9 of these tube fixtures in my basement, but those aren't on very much at all compared to this room.

The Tassimo really makes a big spike too - thought I saw something like 2500 watts when I looked quick at noon. Don't think I'll stop using that though - thing makes some darned good coffee.


----------



## maple1

We've also got a 24" twin tube T12 over the kitchen sink.

It has two 20w bulbs in it.

I was watching things & turning it off & on once in a while while doing supper a while ago - it uses almost the same amount of juice as the 48" ones do. I was actually seeing more use, like 150 watts - but my meter was jumping around some.

It won't be left on now as much as it used to be.

Would be interesting to see others observations of these things. I know some don't, but I really like the kind of light they throw in certain conditions & places.


----------



## sloeffle

Where did you purchase the energy monitor at ?

Thanks,
Scott


----------



## maple1

EBay.


----------



## woodgeek

semipro said:


> Highbeam, woodgeek;
> Are you establishing base load by unplugging everything you can and turning off everything else or are you leaving things plugged in but turned off?



My utility smart meter tells me my house uses 10 kWh/day when we are all away.

With the efergy, I was going to shut down the HVAC and DHW and then cycle circuits at the box.


----------



## Highbeam

semipro said:


> Highbeam, woodgeek;
> Are you establishing base load by unplugging everything you can and turning off everything else or are you leaving things plugged in but turned off?


 
So glad to see more folks doing this.

I thought that perhaps the monitors were inaccurate at low flows so I actually went to my panel with the display in hand and shut off each breaker one at a time. Then with a pencil wrote down the corresponding reduction in watts on the display. It adds up, we really do have these high baseloads. 

Yes, I'm down to BL 160 but 58 of that is my electric range when totally off. Another culprit was all of the GFCI outlets, those buggers suck 6 watts each 24/7/365. I now turn them off using the "test" button.


----------



## Highbeam

maple1 said:


> Couldn't resist trying that, since you mentioned it & they're right above my head.
> 
> I think these are T12's - they're almost 20 years old. When I take one bulb out, it does cut it down by 25% (one out of 4 bulbs total), but the other bulb in the fixture barely lights up. So can't do that, with these ones at least.
> 
> The bulbs are 40 watt bulbs, but they seem to be using at least 50 watts each according to the monitor.


 
I removed a pair of 4 bulb t8 fixtures in my kitchen. Each ballast consumes .98 amps. This is how you determine the fixture draw, not by adding up the bulbs. Each 4' t8 tube made 2500 lumens. Pretty dang efficient really. I replaced those fixtures with 6 properly placed cans making 800 lumens and 15 watts each, leftover CFLs. This halved the electrical consumption and really dropped the lumens, however, properly placing the cans made the countertops just as bright. LED flood bulbs as I have in other rooms will cut the wattage way farther.

So consider placement of the light source as well as wattage and lumens.


----------



## maple1

I really like the white-light flood of the 48" tubes in my workspace. I'll be doing some bulb snooping, then figure out the fixtures from the bulbs. The wire boxes are in decent places for something like a couple of 2 or 3 light fixtures.

Found another little item last night. We've got a halogen floor lamp in the corner of the living room that is on most evenings. Somewhere around 300 watts on low. That will be swapped with a regular incandescent tri-light floor lamp from the kitchen that rarely gets used.

This is laundry day, and laundry is a killer - glanced over at the meter once & thought it didn't look quite right. The decimal point was shifted one place to the right. Washer, dryer & water pump really chew up the watts when they're all going at once. And that's with wood heating the water. Our appliances are almost 20 years old, and I'm pretty sure a new fridge, and front load washer would help - but have a feeling throwing out perfectly good working units would be just asking for trouble. I'm superstitious that way I guess.


----------



## woodgeek

There are now many fluorescent-based replacements for those halogen torchieres...many also have dimming or three-way settings


----------



## TradEddie

Highbeam said:


> Another culprit was all of the GFCI outlets, those buggers suck 6 watts each 24/7/365. I now turn them off using the "test" button.


Do you know if the GFCI's which are in the breaker box are better or worse? When I moved in here, I had some outlets with local AND breaker GFCIs, my inspector recommended removing the outlet GFCIs in case the redundancy affected operation, but I don't ever remember doing it! 
Another project, thanks for nothin'.

TE


----------



## Highbeam

I have only used one breaker GFCI and that was for a hot tub install. On my current hot tub install I used the separate "hot tub panel" which includes a GFCI breaker for the 60 amp circuit. That same circuit has an additional GFCI outlet on it for the required outdoor 120 volt service outlet so I couldn't determine which GFCI was parasitic.

I would always avoid using breaker GFCIs when an outlet GFCI can do the job. I don't want that junk in my panel and the GFCI breakers are quite expensive. I would also avoid using double GFCI protection. Not sure if it is even allowed.

In your case with the double protection it is easier to replace the breaker in the panel than it is to replace an outlet but then you need to be certain that there are no standard outlets on that circuit that still need GFCI protection.

One other thing, these monitors are likely not accurate to the one watt. It is possible that just the presence of voltage in the monitored lines is causing some base load to appear. I tried to eliminate that possibility by shutting off individual breakers and closing the base load with success but at some point we have to consider that these instruments are fairly crude.


----------



## TradEddie

Looks like I have some detective work ahead of me. My inspector believed that doubling up wasn't allowed, he wasn't sure, but recommended removing them, so the sellers had to discount the cost of an electrician coming to perform the work, and I intended to get around to it myself. I have a vague memory of doing something, but ten years later, I still have outlet GFCIs near all sinks, and one in the breaker panel. Perhaps I removed other ones from the breaker panel, the remaining one might be for the outdoor outlet. A job to keep the kids busy with walkie-talkies some weekend.

I might jury-rig a GFCI outlet to the kill-a-watt, see what it measures... Each wasted watt draining 24/7 is $1 per year at 12c/kwh, might save a whopping $6.

TE


----------



## maple1

Anybody know how much electricity their fridge uses in a month?

My Kill-a-Watt thingie hasn't gotten here yet, and that's where it's going when it does get here, but ours seems to spend a lot of time running now that I'm paying more attention to things electrical. Think it's around 18 cu.ft., standard top mount frost free, 18 years old. Label says should be using 639kwh/yr. Will be interesting to see...


----------



## sloeffle

We just bought a Frigidaire 20.5 cubic foot refrigerator / freezer that is energy star rated. It is rated at 408kwh/yr. This is a standard top mount freezer also.

http://manuals.frigidaire.com/prodinfo_pdf/energyguides/FFHT2117L_EG.PDF

Not to take this too far off topic. The reason we bought the above refrigerator is because our fancy dancy new Kitchen Aid refrigerator is a pile of crap and breaks down every few months. From talking to the appliance repairman, he said the new ones are made so cheap he wouldn't buy one. He said he would find something older. IMHO I would keep yours until it dies. The extra 20$ a year it costs you to run it is not worth the hassle of loosing hundreds of dollars worth of food.

Scott


----------



## Highbeam

I was surpised at how little the fridge used. I forget the exact number but hardly anything and this is another one of those energy hog myths. I wouldn't replace a fridge until it breaks or is needed for some other reason than energy efficiency.


----------



## maple1

*I wouldn't replace a fridge until it breaks or is needed for some other reason than energy efficiency.*

I certainly agree with that. Our appliances are almost 20 years old though, and the fridge has been abused. It went through one, umm, episode that entailed being full of food for a week or so with no power going to it. That was a heck of a mess to clean up, and although it appears to still be working OK I have a feeling it hasn't been quite the same since - therefore looking forward to monitoring it to see if it's anything close to what it's rated at. I have also had to get some big clamps out & apply some muscle to straighten out the door on it, twice. It seemed that repeated pulls on the handle over the years lead to warping - that corner had a gap, and you could see the 'twist' in the door looking across it from the side. I thought it was kind of weird, but it happened. It's also missing a bin because one kind of went to pieces.

Also just replaced the pump on the washer last week, so replacement is likely coming almost due on a couple of fronts.


----------



## woodgeek

maple1 said:


> Also just replaced the pump on the washer last week, so replacement is likely coming almost due on a couple of fronts.



I replaced a still working fine 11 yo top loader with a new hi-eff front loader I got on sale for $600.  I penciled out $150-$200 energy savings per year, about half of that in reduced electric dryer usage from higher spin speeds.


----------



## Highbeam

maple1 said:


> *I wouldn't replace a fridge until it breaks or is needed for some other reason than energy efficiency.*
> 
> I certainly agree with that. Our appliances are almost 20 years old though, and the fridge has been abused..


 
Heck, I just replaces one because it was the wrong color. Well, that and when the compressor would shut off it went per clunk clunk clunk. Still cooled fine though. Who would want an almond fridge?


----------



## TradEddie

woodgeek said:


> I replaced a still working fine 11 yo top loader with a new hi-eff front loader I got on sale for $600.  I penciled out $150-$200 energy savings per year, about half of that in reduced electric dryer usage from higher spin speeds.


Can I freeload off your hard work and ask you what you bought, and what you think of it? So many options and dramatically varying reviews online, I don't know where to start shopping. Our washer and dryer are about 12 years old, I replaced the washer pump about five years ago, but I must have reinstalled the drum off center so now its slowly eating itself away each spin. 

TE


----------



## peakbagger

A washer that most folks haven't heard about but are "tanks" is a Staber, even thought they use minimal power and water, they don't make the energy star listings as I think energy star is a voluntary program for smaller companies. The clothes come out very after the spin cycle.  

http://www.staber.com/washingmachines

The design is ingenious with few parts and no transmission to worry about plus a mechanical timer. I especially like that there are no rubber seals to worry about.  Everything is set up for the homeowner to make repairs if they are ever needed and barring abuse or an electrical surge, the only major wear part is the drive belt They are not fashion designs for sure but they run for a long time. They were designed for off grid solar users long ago. Its basically a commercial machine and I think they offer a coin device if you want to pay for it.


----------



## Highbeam

peakbagger said:


> A washer that most folks haven't heard about but are "tanks" is a Staber, even thought they use minimal power and water, they don't make the energy star listings as I think energy star is a voluntary program for smaller companies. The clothes come out very after the spin cycle.
> 
> http://www.staber.com/washingmachines
> 
> The design is ingenious with few parts and no transmission to worry about plus a mechanical timer. I especially like that there are no rubber seals to worry about.  Everything is set up for the homeowner to make repairs if they are ever needed and barring abuse or an electrical surge, the only major wear part is the drive belt They are not fashion designs for sure but they run for a long time. They were designed for off grid solar users long ago. Its basically a commercial machine and I think they offer a coin device if you want to pay for it.


 
Awesome machine. 1300$ plus a few hundred to ship though for the cheapest model. Uses 16 gallons per load. Nice! After fighting my whirlpool duet front loaders and all of the leaks and repairs, I welcome some fresh ideas.


----------



## semipro

TradEddie said:


> Can I freeload off your hard work and ask you what you bought, and what you think of it? So many options and dramatically varying reviews online, I don't know where to start shopping. Our washer and dryer are about 12 years old, I replaced the washer pump about five years ago, but I must have reinstalled the drum off center so now its slowly eating itself away each spin.
> 
> TE


We've had a Bosch front loader for about 5 years, no problems, cleans well,Eco mode, spins dry, made in USA.


----------



## woodgeek

TradEddie said:


> Can I freeload off your hard work and ask you what you bought, and what you think of it? So many options and dramatically varying reviews online, I don't know where to start shopping. Our washer and dryer are about 12 years old, I replaced the washer pump about five years ago, but I must have reinstalled the drum off center so now its slowly eating itself away each spin.
> 
> TE



Its one of the cheaper LG front loaders.  Only feature lacking is 'steam sanitize' which I think is a BS feature for OCD folks.  Only issue I had was 'water hammer' banging the pipes in my house, which was solved by buying a pair of 'water hammer arrestors' and installing them on the hoses.


----------



## peakbagger

I think the Staber is the option for a large family where its running frequently or for small commercial type operations. The trade off is that the way the clothes are loaded is not obvious to some and there  is potential to get pinched if its not done right. I bought one so I never had to buy another washer. Its also great for poly pro and fleece, the stuff comes out just about dry. I have worn clothes right out of it.


----------



## jpelizza

which whole house electricty monitor to get?  i see a few here have a efergy one, like or dislike?


----------



## blades

I have a LG washer HE, not a front load but a tub model Direct drive motor, about a year old no problems so far, did make difference in electric and water usage. Then because of the high speed spin and replacing the electric dryer with a HF Gas dryer has made a noticable diferance in the utility bills, still the bills come in at about 460kw/month. So there is a bunch of stuff to find that are power robbing me.  only one GFI circuit .


----------



## Highbeam

jpelizza said:


> which whole house electricty monitor to get?  i see a few here have a efergy one, like or dislike?


Still very happy with my efergy.


----------



## jpelizza

Highbeam said:


> Still very happy with my efergy.


THANKS, GOT ONE ON THE WAY


----------



## begreen

maple1 said:


> *I wouldn't replace a fridge until it breaks or is needed for some other reason than energy efficiency.*
> 
> I certainly agree with that. Our appliances are almost 20 years old though, and the fridge has been abused. It went through one, umm, episode that entailed being full of food for a week or so with no power going to it. That was a heck of a mess to clean up, and although it appears to still be working OK I have a feeling it hasn't been quite the same since - therefore looking forward to monitoring it to see if it's anything close to what it's rated at. I have also had to get some big clamps out & apply some muscle to straighten out the door on it, twice. It seemed that repeated pulls on the handle over the years lead to warping - that corner had a gap, and you could see the 'twist' in the door looking across it from the side. I thought it was kind of weird, but it happened. It's also missing a bin because one kind of went to pieces.
> 
> Also just replaced the pump on the washer last week, so replacement is likely coming almost due on a couple of fronts.



We think our new appliances are efficient, but it's all relative. Here is a comparison of the annual average power consumption for a US fridge vs some average per capita annual power consumption for some African nations.


----------



## jebatty

If I forget about the fact thatI live in a very cold winter climate, still my kwh usage, which I also think is "relatively" low, far exceeds that not only of people in these countries, but also in many western European countries. My wife and I have gotten our general usage down to about 8-10 kwh/day + 3 kwh/day for domestic hot water. And at 11-14 kwh/day we have made a big reduction from usage 2 years ago. And then there is about 6000 kwh/yr for electricity to keep the basement at 50F during the winter.

Refrig/freezer side x side: 3 kwh/day (1095 kwh/yr)
Upright freezer: 1.3 kwh/day
Everything else: 3.7 - 5.7 kwh/day


----------



## BrotherBart

maple1 said:


> I wouldn't replace a fridge until it breaks or is needed for some other reason than energy efficiency.



Replaced our thirty year old one this year and love it. $500 hauled in and installed and the old one that finally died hauled away. I thought the old one was fine electric usage wise. Pffft. This one is bigger and just uses 118 watts when it decides to run. And less than the running wattage of the old one defrosting.

Makes some weird noises sometimes but I understand that is what the newer ones do.

Should have done it years ago.


----------



## DougA

Can someone please tell me how the efergy hooks up to your power supply. I spent an hour going through all the ebay listings and all I see is that most are not 200 amp but some are and they say 'clip onto your power supply'.  So breaker panel cover comes off and you 'clip' it to the main feeds?

BTW, we got an LG front load washer a year ago and very happy with it.  Much cheaper to run but the cycles are longer. Take care that you go through a sani cycle once in awhile, otherwise the inside stinks. Also, there's been a few news articles about people washing everything in cold water due to high energy costs. Soap and cold water alone do not kill fecal bacteria well enough. My wife stated changing her laundry sorting and all underwear, pj's, etc. now go through a hot wash. I also got a new Bosch dishwasher and although cheaper to run, my wife is not as happy. Most of these achieve less power usage by running better DC motors and much less water but the trade-off is extended cycle times.  We run everything in the later evening or weekend now because hydro is half the cost.


----------



## maple1

DougA said:


> Can someone please tell me how the efergy hooks up to your power supply. I spent an hour going through all the ebay listings and all I see is that most are not 200 amp but some are and they say 'clip onto your power supply'.  So breaker panel cover comes off and you 'clip' it to the main feeds?
> 
> BTW, we got an LG front load washer a year ago and very happy with it.  Much cheaper to run but the cycles are longer. Take care that you go through a sani cycle once in awhile, otherwise the inside stinks. Also, there's been a few news articles about people washing everything in cold water due to high energy costs. Soap and cold water alone do not kill fecal bacteria well enough. My wife stated changing her laundry sorting and all underwear, pj's, etc. now go through a hot wash. I also got a new Bosch dishwasher and although cheaper to run, my wife is not as happy. Most of these achieve less power usage by running better DC motors and much less water but the trade-off is extended cycle times.  We run everything in the later evening or weekend now because hydro is half the cost.



Yes. They are a loose fit though. I used a small cable tie under each one to keep them from sliding down my wires.


----------



## flyingcow

We leave our door open on our front loader when not in use. Keeps the stink away.


----------



## Highbeam

DougA said:


> Can someone please tell me how the efergy hooks up to your power supply. I spent an hour going through all the ebay listings and all I see is that most are not 200 amp but some are and they say 'clip onto your power supply'.  So breaker panel cover comes off and you 'clip' it to the main feeds?


 
Yes, all they are is little clamp aroudn donuts that snap aroudn the existing feeds that enter your  main breaker in the panel. You do NOT need to disconnect any wires in the panel. I installed mine without turning off the power or anything. I also put on some zip ties to prevent the donuts from sliding down to the main breaker and also to make sure that the donut is totally flat and square to the wire. The donuts are oversized to allow clamping around many sized of wire. They can be removed easily and moved to another circuit if you want to monitor and log, say, a hot tub.

After a while though you will notice the signature wattage consumptions of various devices.


----------



## DougA

Thanks for that. I was thinking they had to be hard wired in.


----------



## johnny1720

I am closely looking at the efergy with the hub for the Internet connection.  I really wanted to be able to monitor my entire house and my geothermal separately.  

I assume that means I need two different units.


----------



## Doug MacIVER

interesting study I found. look before leaping!http://www.beaconhill.org/BHIStudies/NJ-Wind-2011/NJWindReport2011-06.pdf


----------



## Highbeam

Doug MacIVER said:


> interesting study I found. look before leaping!http://www.beaconhill.org/BHIStudies/NJ-Wind-2011/NJWindReport2011-06.pdf


 
How does that relate to this thread Doug?

The efergy is setup for only a single circuit. There are other home energy monitor systems that can be built to monitor every circuit on your panel but the complexity and cost go way up. It is likely better to just buy two efergies.


----------



## Doug MacIVER

Highbeam said:


> How does that relate to this thread Doug?
> 
> The efergy is setup for only a single circuit. There are other home energy monitor systems that can be built to monitor every circuit on your panel but the complexity and cost go way up. It is likely better to just buy two efergies.


why monitor use just to cut kw's. cost relates and reason to cut,save ,don't use it.


----------



## maple1

Doug MacIVER said:


> why monitor use just to cut kw's. cost relates and reason to cut,save ,don't use it.


 

What?


----------



## Highbeam

maple1 said:


> What?


 
Yes, I agree, what?

As far as why monitor, well, there are several reasons but by monitoring the consumption we can reduce consumption which is about the only thing we have control over. Reducing consumption of a resource has other benefits but the only way to reduce your bill is to reduce your consumption.


----------



## johnny1720

The reason I want to monitor is because I want to be able to actually measure what appliances are consuming.   I have a Kill A Watt Meter but I am interested in the well pump, dryer, electric range and other 220 volt items.  

Last year I replaced my well pump and I reduced the daily KW consumption about 2 KwH's per day which is $.30 cents a day or $9.00 per month.


----------



## Where2

johnny1720 said:


> I have a Kill A Watt Meter but I am interested in the well pump, dryer, electric range and other 220 volt items.



My TED 1001 has been happily monitoring my electric water heater all month. Next billing cycle month, I'll be monitoring the electric dryer. In a perfect world, I'd have a Brultech Green Eye Monitor, but my budget for gadgets went dry when I changed jobs in 2012.


----------



## Highbeam

johnny1720 said:


> The reason I want to monitor is because I want to be able to actually measure what appliances are consuming.   I have a Kill A Watt Meter but I am interested in the well pump, dryer, electric range and other 220 volt items.
> 
> Last year I replaced my well pump and I reduced the daily KW consumption about 2 KwH's per day which is $.30 cents a day or $9.00 per month.


 
That's perfect.

You'll really know when your water heater cycles. It is an instant 4500 watt load. Very obvious when it is on and it stays on until the stat is satisfied. I do not notice it running for no reason to make up for standby losses. I do notice that it runs during and after somebody takes a shower for a period.

The dryer is fun to watch since it cycles the element. I always thought that dryers burned the heater element all the time but no, they cycle. So it would be possible to measure the on/off cycles in minutes and also the total run time of the dryer. Changes in dryer venting, load size, or even dryness of washed laundry could effect the consumption.

Your well pump will be fun to watch. It will kick on and consume less watts at first since it is only fighting low pressure but as the pressure in your tanks builds, the load will increase, until it kicks off. At least that's what I would expect. Maybe, since it is a centrifugal pump, the wattage will be constant but the flow of water being pumped will reduce as pressure goes up. You'll get to find out!

After you have a home monitor, the killawatt is less useful. I can see a lamp turned on. These things are very accurate.


----------



## semipro

Highbeam said:


> Maybe, since it is a centrifugal pump, the wattage will be constant but the flow of water being pumped will reduce as pressure goes up.


I put an amp meter on my well pump and observed this behavior, initial high current at motor start then constant current until the shut-off pressure is reached.


----------



## johnny1720

I have the following setups

-well pump 
-electric dryer - energy star
-electric range
-geothermal - energy star
-mostly leds or cfl bulbs
-energy star upright freezer
-energy star double door fridge
-energy dishwasher
-small dorm fridge (for beer)

I unplug all VCRs, game consoles, phone chargers, kids toys.  During the summer with out the geothermal running my base use is 30 KwH per day.   I have never been able to get lower than this.  I have had an electrician out and we can't find any issues.  Does that seem excessive to anyone?


----------



## Highbeam

johnny1720 said:


> I have the following setups
> 
> -well pump
> -electric dryer - energy star
> -electric range
> -geothermal - energy star
> -mostly leds or cfl bulbs
> -energy star upright freezer
> -energy star double door fridge
> -energy dishwasher
> -small dorm fridge (for beer)
> 
> I unplug all VCRs, game consoles, phone chargers, kids toys.  During the summer with out the geothermal running my base use is 30 KwH per day.   I have never been able to get lower than this.  I have had an electrician out and we can't find any issues.  Does that seem excessive to anyone?


 
Yes. How do you heat your hot water? Without my hot tub I am down around 14 kwh per day with everything normal. I don't have a well pump to power but I do have electric everything, a wife, and two daughters.


----------



## johnny1720

Tankless Propane I put the kill a watt meter in it and it didn't use a whole KwH in two days.


----------



## maple1

Is your well pump a deep well? You could have a leak down there?


----------



## woodgeek

30 kWh/day, I'd be looking hard to find something....


----------



## johnny1720

maple1 said:


> Is your well pump a deep well? You could have a leak down there?



My well is only 75' deep.  Last May I replaced the pump, electric wire, pipe and bladder tank.  When I did this my electric usage went down 2 KwH per day.  I can guarantee nothing is leaking down there.  

I also have a sub-panel in my garage.  It is fed overhead, three breakers, lights, outlets and a 75 watt sodium vapor light.


----------



## johnny1720

woodgeek said:


> 30 kWh/day, I'd be looking hard to find something....



I am,

- new fridge 12/12
- new dryer 11/12
- new dishwasher 01/13
- new well pump 5/13
- new satellite system that uses less electric than my old satellite 3/14

I paid an electrician to come and inspect and he found no vampire loads.  He installed new ground rods and brought the panel back into compliance.


----------



## CaptSpiff

johnny1720 said:


> ..... my base use is 30 KwH per day.   I have never been able to get lower than this.  I have had an electrician out and we can't find any issues.



Maybe your fridge light is staying on.....


----------



## Ashful

Highbeam said:


> I was surpised at how little the fridge used. I forget the exact number but hardly anything and this is another one of those energy hog myths. I wouldn't replace a fridge until it breaks or is needed for some other reason than energy efficiency.


I wonder about this, Highbeam.  We have two new'ish refrigerators with vastly different times to thaw in a power outage.  I'm talking maybe 5:1 ratio, although it's tough to say for sure given different installation conditions.  I'd bet some refrigerators are real energy hogs, whether it be from age, manufacturer's defects (probably my case), poor design, improper installation...



woodgeek said:


> I put my efergy e2 up a couple days ago.  Even with everything I know of idle, I am at 360W.


Loan me that thing for a day or three, if you want some numbers to make you feel better about your situation.


----------



## Highbeam

johnny1720 said:


> I am,
> 
> - new fridge 12/12
> - new dryer 11/12
> - new dishwasher 01/13
> - new well pump 5/13
> - new satellite system that uses less electric than my old satellite 3/14
> 
> I paid an electrician to come and inspect and he found no vampire loads.  He installed new ground rods and brought the panel back into compliance.


The clamp on ampmeter or a whole house monitor will find your leak. You investigate each circuit one at a time until you find the culprit.


----------



## maple1

johnny1720 said:


> My well is only 75' deep.  Last May I replaced the pump, electric wire, pipe and bladder tank.  When I did this my electric usage went down 2 KwH per day.  I can guarantee nothing is leaking down there.
> 
> I also have a sub-panel in my garage.  It is fed overhead, three breakers, lights, outlets and a 75 watt sodium vapor light.


 

Is the pump in the well? It doesn't take much some times to get a foot valve to seeping a bit - and with the pump in the well you'd never know it was running. Unless you had a monitor of some kind on the circuit.

That is a huge base load. My average total consumption runs in the 20kwh/day area. You've got something sucking the juice.

EDIT: Do you have a septic system? Any pumps in that anywhere?


----------



## Highbeam

maple1 said:


> Is the pump in the well? It doesn't take much some times to get a foot valve to seeping a bit - and with the pump in the well you'd never know it was running. Unless you had a monitor of some kind on the circuit.
> 
> That is a huge base load. My average total consumption runs in the 20kwh/day area. You've got something sucking the juice.
> 
> EDIT: Do you have a septic system? Any pumps in that anywhere?


 
If I suspected a leak in the pipe I would watch the system. Just go sit by your pressure tank and see if the thing loses pressure when nobody is using water, see how often it cycles, better yet shut the pump off when you leave for a day and when you return see if the pressure dropped. That pump is not supposed to do anything unless you are using water. In addition, pumping water from a 75 foot well does not take much energy so it will be a small pump. Every well system I've worked on is equipped with pressure gauges so you can watch the on/off switch do its thing.

You're looking for something big. Burning that kind of juice will make noise and heat. I expect that it is a constant load sucking your juice due to the immensity.

Go to home depot and buy a Klein clamp on ampmeter, I don't recall the cost but under 50$. Open your panel. And with everything "off" measure the amperage running from the meter to the main breaker. Then measure the amounts leaving each circuit breaker. The breaker flow should add up to the main's flow. Write each one down. You will find one or three that are pulling amperage. Then figure out what is on that circuit that could be sucking juice.

Do you have a bunch of dusk to dawn outside lights?


----------



## johnny1720

maple1 said:


> Is the pump in the well? It doesn't take much some times to get a foot valve to seeping a bit - and with the pump in the well you'd never know it was running. Unless you had a monitor of some kind on the circuit.
> 
> That is a huge base load. My average total consumption runs in the 20kwh/day area. You've got something sucking the juice.
> 
> EDIT: Do you have a septic system? Any pumps in that anywhere?




I can tell when my well pump turns on, when in the basement I hear it click on and off when water is running.  I am 100% sure the well pump is not the issue.  

I have only one 75 watt sodium vapor light on my barn.  It has an eye and turns on and off automatically.  


I have a septic but there are no pumps of any type.  It is a traditional setup 

I will grab a clamp on meter and check


----------



## maple1

I'm just trying to figure out what could possibly use that much juice without being noticed. Pumps that are in the well are my suspect no.1 - because you can't hear them run (my shallow well pump is in my basement & my brain seems to have established an internal alarm that kicks me every time it hears the pump kick in), and yes even though you can tell when they cut in & out by being by the well tank & watching pressures & listening for clicks, you have to be right there watching. A seep in a foot valve could cause slow pressure drop, and be caused by the tiniest piece of dirt, and make a pump cut in several times per night while you are sleeping. If you've ruled it out to your satisfaction, that's good - highbeam has a good hint to shut it off say for overnight & check for pressure drop after a few hours. But with everything that gets ruled out, the question gets bigger & more puzzling. That's a fairly big draw for nothing obvious using power - about 1250 watts 24/7.


----------



## semipro

Johnny,
I have a geothermal system also.  It has resistance heating elements that are used only in emergency heating mode.  I had a contactor in the system go bad once and one of the elements was energized 24/7.   If I recall correctly it pretty much doubled (or more) our energy usage.


----------



## CaptSpiff

maple1 said:


> That's a fairly big draw for nothing obvious using power - about 1250 watts 24/7.



Right. Think of a hair dryer or toaster, ON & running every hour for 24hrs a day.

Which is why the OP is probably mistaken in his original claim. 

I take trouble reports from non-experts as a job. When I get there it is almost never as described. That's life. And it pays my bills.


----------



## CaptSpiff

OK, I just re-read my post above and it reads like I'm trying to pick a fight, when I'm really trying to be funny. I guess I'll keep my day job!

Re the Post:


johnny1720 said:


> I have the following setups
> 
> -well pump
> -electric dryer - energy star
> -electric range
> -geothermal - energy star
> -mostly leds or cfl bulbs
> -energy star upright freezer
> -energy star double door fridge
> -energy dishwasher
> -small dorm fridge (for beer)
> 
> I unplug all VCRs, game consoles, phone chargers, kids toys.  During the summer with out the geothermal running my base use is 30 KwH per day.   I have never been able to get lower than this.  I have had an electrician out and we can't find any issues.  Does that seem excessive to anyone?



You've got an all electric situation. In the summer, even without the geo running, you've got kids so you're using the range 3 times a day, the electric dryer probably does a load a day, plus the dishwasher. All that at 30KwH a day ain't bad.

Well, it is where I live cause I pay 22 cents per KwH. That's why I practice conservation like it was my religion. 

Like others have mentioned. Open up the panel and start amp-probing (clamping) each ckt.


----------



## Highbeam

CaptSpiff said:


> You've got an all electric situation. In the summer, even without the geo running, you've got kids so you're using the range 3 times a day, the electric dryer probably does a load a day, plus the dishwasher. All that at 30KwH a day ain't bad.


 
I think it is bad. I measure half of that and I have kids too. His use is double mine. As though another house is hooked up.


----------



## johnny1720

semipro said:


> Johnny,
> I have a geothermal system also.  It has resistance heating elements that are used only in emergency heating mode.  I had a contactor in the system go bad once and one of the elements was energized 24/7.   If I recall correctly it pretty much doubled (or more) our energy usage.



I have my electric resistance backup turned off at the breaker.  I only turn it on when it is below 5 degrees out


----------



## Slow1

Highbeam said:


> I think it is bad. I measure half of that and I have kids too. His use is double mine. As though another house is hooked up.



At first look, I agree - I have four kids and run an average of 15Kwh/day total.  Granted I don't have electric heat (unless we run it in the basement which obviously ups the daily use) or an electric hot water heater, but still - we do have electric range and a freezer as well as a fridge (both over 10 years old).  Hmm... then again I just looked up how much a hot water heater uses on average (http://energy.gov/eere/femp/energy-cost-calculator-electric-and-gas-water-heaters-0#output) and it does appear that 14Khw/day isn't too far from the average... that would put me in that 30Kwh/day range...


----------



## Highbeam

Including the 60 amp, 8' square, 10 year old hot tub on my concrete patio I am still under 30 kwh for each of the days this week. Electric water heater, range, Freezer, refer, and kegerator.


----------



## jebatty

Water heater, separate meter, average 100 kwh/month. Was 200 kwh/month before super-insulating.


----------



## Highbeam

jebatty said:


> Water heater, separate meter, average 100 kwh/month. Was 200 kwh/month before super-insulating.


 
So that's the first 7 kwh of your daily use. With no space heating demand your next big one is refrigeration which I have logged as 100 watts for 50% of the day or 1.2 kwh per day per refer.

A little cooking, coffee making, lighting, and 15 is possible.


----------



## jebatty

Kill-o-watt reports side-by-side refrig/freezer at 3 kwh/day and upright freezer at 1.3 kwh/day.


----------



## jebatty

Assumptions on kwh usage for an appliance can be misleading. My wife did 3 loads of clothes with the LG front loading washing machine yesterday. I measured kwh with the Kill-o-watt and found the LG uses 0.29 kwh for the three loads, or 0.10 kwh/load. I assumed usage would be much higher because each load takes "a long time." I guess much of that time is spent not doing anything but just soaking and occasionally tossing the clothes.


----------



## maple1

Slow1 said:


> At first look, I agree - I have four kids and run an average of 15Kwh/day total.  Granted I don't have electric heat (unless we run it in the basement which obviously ups the daily use) or an electric hot water heater, but still - we do have electric range and a freezer as well as a fridge (both over 10 years old).  Hmm... then again I just looked up how much a hot water heater uses on average (http://energy.gov/eere/femp/energy-cost-calculator-electric-and-gas-water-heaters-0#output) and it does appear that 14Khw/day isn't too far from the average... that would put me in that 30Kwh/day range...


 
Our 2 year old 80 gallon electric hot water heater uses about 6kwh/day on average. Family of 5.


----------



## solarstar

Killawatt meter on my expensive 27 cu ft side by side fridge /freezer is 1.6 Kw per day   .  basement freezer that I added an extra 1.5 insulation is  .4 Kw per day . Yes (400 watt hours)  per day.      heres proof insulation works and frequency/servo drive in a fridge compressor WORKS.


----------



## Highbeam

solarstar said:


> Killawatt meter on my expensive 27 cu ft side by side fridge /freezer is 1.6 Kw per day   .  basement freezer that I added an extra 1.5 insulation is  .4 Kw per day . Yes (400 watt hours)  per day.      heres proof insulation works and frequency/servo drive in a fridge compressor WORKS.


 
Be careful with the advice to insulate refers/freezers. I own one fridge and an upright freezer that both utilize heat discharge tubing that is buried under the metal skin of the cabinet. This is unlike the olden days when there was a seperate coil on the back or under the appliance. If you insulate the skin of a refer like this you will be trapping the heat.

I hooked up my father's 18 year old fridge/freezer to the killawatt yesterday. It runs at 153 watts. Probably 50% of the day so it will be a cheap runner too. Refrigeration is NOT a major energy user when compared to heating water or incandescent lights.


----------



## solarstar

Highbeam said:


> Be careful with the advice to insulate refers/freezers. I own one fridge and an upright freezer that both utilize heat discharge tubing that is buried under the metal skin of the cabinet. This is unlike the olden days when there was a seperate coil on the back or under the appliance. If you insulate the skin of a refer like this you will be trapping the heat.
> 
> I hooked up my father's 18 year old fridge/freezer to the killawatt yesterday. It runs at 153 watts. Probably 50% of the day so it will be a cheap runner too. Refrigeration is NOT a major energy user when compared to heating water or incandescent lights.


 

Good point that I did not mention :  I did not mention that about 30% is left open (uninsulated) where the heat dissipation coils are are using the one side of the freezer to dissipate this heat. *Only* insulate the other areas.... the insulation dropped my Kw usage just about one third. on this freezer... A very quick payback for about $10 bucks of Styrofoam back then..15 Years ago


----------



## johnny1720

I am starting to track some energy usage. 

Tankless Hot-water Heater, .14 KwH for 24 hours
Energy Star Freezer, 1.18 KwH for 30 hours
Kureg coffee maker, .75 KwH for 24 hours
Cordless Phone, .04 KwH for 24 hours
Baby Monitor, .04 

I am now tracking my uv light setup for my well water.  I just realized it was down there and it runs 24x7x365.


----------



## maple1

*Kureg coffee maker, .75 KwH for 24 hours*

You must drink a lot of coffee.


----------



## Slow1

maple1 said:


> Our 2 year old 80 gallon electric hot water heater uses about 6kwh/day on average. Family of 5.


I'm very glad to hear this - I'm looking to replace my oil indirect water tank with electric.  Looking at your numbers it seems I may burn about 2190Kwh/year which at .17/kwh comes to $372/year - I'm currently burning about 200 gallons of oil heating my water for about $650-800/year ($3.25-$4/gallon).  Looks like a $272/year savings on the low side - should pay back pretty soon (and my actual electric cost is lower as I'm running solar with about $0.10/kwh average over 10 years).


----------



## solarstar

surprisingly close numbers for similarly sized family.  My family of 8 was using 14 Kw / day usage over a 60 day monitoring period .  numbers are greatly skewed now as I'm using Greywater heat exchange  , and 100% solar hot water now from mid March to about mid October.


----------



## Ashful

maple1 said:


> *Kureg coffee maker, .75 KwH for 24 hours*
> 
> You must drink a lot of coffee.


I don't think so.  My coffee maker (Bunn A10) uses roughly double that, per day.  I rarely brew more than 2 pots (96 oz.), although it's designed for usage rates of 70 gal/day.


----------



## woodgeek

a lot of the Keurig's keep a reservoir warm all the time.  Mine does for several hours, and then goes to 'sleep'.


----------



## Slow1

Joful said:


> I don't think so.  My coffee maker (Bunn A10) uses roughly double that, per day.  I rarely brew more than 2 pots (96 oz.).



If you want to reduce your coffee maker power consumption, get one that has an insulate carafe instead of a burner to keep it warm.  Cooks the coffee less too which some consider to help hold the flavor better.  Less standby power loss...  not sure I'd do it just for power reduction though, have to like the coffee and drink it before it gets too cold too


----------



## Ashful

Okay, advanced apologies for the derail, but responding:



Slow1 said:


> If you want to reduce your coffee maker power consumption, get one that has an insulate carafe instead of a burner to keep it warm.


Good advice, but I don't use the pot warmer much.  Maybe an hour on Saturday or Sunday, to keep the carafe warm while we consume, but that's it.  The weekday brew goes directly from the pot into my Stanley vacuum thermos to take to work, and the after dinner brew goes straight into my mug for immediate consumption.



woodgeek said:


> a lot of the Keurig's keep a reservoir warm all the time.  Mine does for several hours, and then goes to 'sleep'.


The killer on all these coffee makers is the hot water capacity.  The Keurig does have a sleep mode, which I really dislike, for many reasons.  It stays on a few hours after use, wasting energy when you don't really need the hot water, and then it shuts itself off and goes cold before you actually need a second pot.  Also, I can't understand how storing water at room temp is not going to promote the growth of something.  The Bunn A10 keeps the water hot all the time, has a MUCH larger heater (1140 watts) for very fast recovery time, and in fact they instruct you to drain it if you ever want to turn off the water heater.  During standby, I hear the heater cycle on for a few seconds every half hour, or so.

Both machines make pretty good coffee, although using vastly different technique.  Only the Bunn gets hot enough to get a truly proper extraction, although I've had some pretty good cups of coffee off of a Keurig.  I have a Keurig near my desk at work, because they're simple no-mess coffee, but my home machine is the far superior Bunn A10.  I bring a 1 liter thermos of coffee with me from the A10 every day, and only use the Keurig on occasions when that runs out.  Some things are worth wasting a few electrons!


----------



## woodgeek

Yar. I don't like the Keurig's.  I make my pod coffee in a Bunn machine: the Bunn My Cafe.  Nice extraction, and fast reheating of the reservoir (~45 seconds?) if it has gone to sleep.


----------



## begreen

Slow1 said:


> If you want to reduce your coffee maker power consumption, get one that has an insulate carafe instead of a burner to keep it warm.  Cooks the coffee less too which some consider to help hold the flavor better.  Less standby power loss...  not sure I'd do it just for power reduction though, have to like the coffee and drink it before it gets too cold too


Agreed Keurig is not great coffee and it's an environmental disaster. (Each pound of coffee sends 50 K-Cups to the landfill.) We have a Capresso coffee maker that has an insulated carafe for when we are in a hurry and want the coffee ready when we wake up. But usually we heat the water on the stove, then the coffee made in a Bodum press pot, then poured into a thermal carafe. The grounds go into the compost or on the strawberry bed. 

http://www.carbondiet.ca/green_advice/food/k-cup_coffee_maker_garbage_an_environmental_issue.html


----------



## maple1

Joful said:


> I don't think so.  My coffee maker (Bunn A10) uses roughly double that, per day.  I rarely brew more than 2 pots (96 oz.), although it's designed for usage rates of 70 gal/day.


 
I thought it was, for a cup-at-a-time machine.

We have a Tassimo. It's rated at 1300w. Assuming 2 minutes per cup, then 0.75kwh would work out to about 17 cups. But I expect a lot less than two minutes at full draw.  I'll have to watch my energy monitor & time the cycle next time I use it - that's one thing I haven't watched all that close. I was assuming a Keurig & Tassimo work the same - only use power while making a cup of coffee. I wasn't aware Keurigs keep water hot all the time. Mine makes great coffee - so not sure what the advantage to keeping the water hot all the time is. They make great coffee, and do it very conveniently - but they certainly aren't 'green' by any means. A lot of waste in all those pods. If I was buying new again, I'd likely go Keurig just so I could use a reuseable pod - but not sure how that impacts the quality either.


----------



## semipro

begreen said:


> Agreed Keurig is not great coffee and it's an environmental disaster. (50 K-Cups to the landfill.)


Agreed.  Reusable cups are available though.  I use them at work.
I've read that Keurig is going towards the DRM model of allowing only Keurig or other licensed K-cups to work in their newer machines.
http://www.cnet.com/news/keurig-2-0-brews-up-drm-to-freeze-out-copycat-cups/


----------



## semipro

begreen said:


> But usually we heat the water on the stove


In the spirit of this thread I must point out that its typically more energy conserving to heat water in your microwave.


----------



## begreen

semipro said:


> In the spirit of this thread I must point out that its typically more energy conserving to heat water in your microwave.


Gas stove.


----------



## woodgeek

Heat Pump and wind.


----------



## velvetfoot

Admittedly only read the last four posts, but we have a coffee maker with a thermal caraffe.


----------



## Where2

woodgeek said:


> Heat Pump and wind.


Or Edmund Scientific large fresnel lens in the sunshine...

We have a Tassimo and a collection of different models of Keurigs. They all belong to my wife. I frequently have to come along and put the Keurig to sleep. Although not as significant as the energy used by my electric dryer, I despise the waste.


----------



## Grisu

begreen said:


> Agreed Keurig is not great coffee and it's an environmental disaster. (Each pound of coffee sends 50 K-Cups to the landfill.) We have a Capresso coffee maker that has an insulated carafe for when we are in a hurry and want the coffee ready when we wake up. But usually we heat the water on the stove, then the coffee made in a Bodum press pot, then poured into a thermal carafe. The grounds go into the compost or on the strawberry bed.
> 
> http://www.carbondiet.ca/green_advice/food/k-cup_coffee_maker_garbage_an_environmental_issue.html



Not just an environmental disaster but also a total waste of money. 1 lb coffee costs ~$50.  Plus, you are tied to what is available in those cups if I am not mistaken. 

I have a similar setup: An electric express water heater (also equally often used for making tea) and a single cup filter when I just make one for myself. (like this one here:
http://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/fr...cCSC591A0020&gclid=CMCni5an9b0CFeMSOgodZRoAUA )
For a larger group I have a Melitta pour-over filter with a thermal carafe underneath; keeps the coffee hot for several hours.


----------



## johnny1720

maple1 said:


> *Kureg coffee maker, .75 KwH for 24 hours*
> 
> You must drink a lot of coffee.



Not really it turns in at 5:30 AM we drink two cups.  We drink two more and take them to work, it shuts off at 7:15.  We only use the k-cup basket and put in our own dunkin donut.  

Update the darn UV light system used .90 KWH in 23 hours.  

This thread is a great thread,


----------



## Where2

johnny1720 said:


> Update the darn UV light system used .90 KWH in 23 hours.



My water heater has used 99kWh in the last month. (my incoming water is 77°F, thermostat is set at 126°F, 2 adult house occupants)

Next up: measure the electric dryer for a month.


----------



## WiscWoody

johnny1720 said:


> I have the following setups
> 
> -well pump
> -electric dryer - energy star
> -electric range
> -geothermal - energy star
> -mostly leds or cfl bulbs
> -energy star upright freezer
> -energy star double door fridge
> -energy dishwasher
> -small dorm fridge (for beer)
> 
> I unplug all VCRs, game consoles, phone chargers, kids toys.  During the summer with out the geothermal running my base use is 30 KwH per day.   I have never been able to get lower than this.  I have had an electrician out and we can't find any issues.  Does that seem excessive to anyone?


Whats a VCR? I use 8 KWh of power a day in a 3100 sg ft house.


----------



## WiscWoody

Slow1 said:


> If you want to reduce your coffee maker power consumption, get one that has an insulate carafe instead of a burner to keep it warm.  Cooks the coffee less too which some consider to help hold the flavor better.  Less standby power loss...  not sure I'd do it just for power reduction though, have to like the coffee and drink it before it gets too cold too


Id never trade my Keurig for some other maker! it only takes a moment in the morning to warm it up so its ready to go. Shut it off when done or usw the 2 hour off option.


----------



## maple1

johnny1720 said:


> Not really it turns in at 5:30 AM we drink two cups.  We drink two more and take them to work, it shuts off at 7:15.  We only use the k-cup basket and put in our own dunkin donut.
> 
> Update the darn UV light system used .90 KWH in 23 hours.
> 
> This thread is a great thread,


 
I just finished my morning cup. I watched my monitor & watch while my Tassimo did its thing - also was trying to clean up some dishes at the same time, so my data is a little bit fuzzy. But it took 2 minutes from start to finish, and my monitor showed it used 3000 watts for about 45 seconds, the rest of the time it didn't register anything - guess the pump itself doesn't use much juice. So .75kwh would make me 20 cups of coffee.

Also discovered I'm almost out of pods - I'm really wanting to try a Keurig & the reusable basket, but my wife would likely kick me if I gave away her Christmas present to me.


----------



## Ashful

WiscWoody said:


> Id never trade my Keurig for some other maker! it only takes a moment in the morning to warm it up so its ready to go. Shut it off when done or usw the 2 hour off option.


Yeah, but there is better coffee to be had, and for much less.  I just received in the mail yesterday, 5 kg of primo German coffee for $110.  Nothing this good is available in K-cups, and even the mid-grade stuff that can be had in K-cups averages $25/kg (almost as much as primo stuff in 500g bags).  Yes, you can use a reusable basket in a Keurig, but then the convenience advantage is eliminated, and you're left with just a substandard coffee maker, which doesn't brew hot enough.  The Keurig is great for convenience in an occasional single-cup maker, but there are much better options for your daily use / making multiple cups.  Check Bunn commercial duty, or Technivorm.



WiscWoody said:


> Whats a VCR? I use 8 KWh of power a day in a 3100 sg ft house.


That's very impressive.  I think we average 50 - 55 kWh/day, when the AC is not running, and over 80 kWh / day in July.


----------



## Grisu

maple1 said:


> I just finished my morning cup. I watched my monitor & watch while my Tassimo did its thing - also was trying to clean up some dishes at the same time, so my data is a little bit fuzzy. But it took 2 minutes from start to finish, and my monitor showed it used 3000 watts for about 45 seconds, the rest of the time it didn't register anything - guess the pump itself doesn't use much juice. So .75kwh would make me 20 cups of coffee.



That's a lot of juice. Do you have it on a 30 A circuit? My express water heater uses 1500 W and boils up to 7 cups of water in about 5 to 6 min. In the morning, I turn it on, take a bathroom break and when I come back it is usually done already. 



Joful said:


> I just received in the mail yesterday, 5 kg of primo German coffee for $110.



Someone likes his coffee strong.  May I ask what brand?


----------



## maple1

Grisu said:


> That's a lot of juice. Do you have it on a 30 A circuit? My express water heater uses 1500 W and boils up to 7 cups of water in about 5 to 6 min. In the morning, I turn it on, take a bathroom break and when I come back it is usually done already.


 
Yes it is - and no I don't. I don't think I got an accurate reading from my monitor. I samples every 10 seconds, and when I originally set it up I had to tell it the voltage of the mains. I just entered 240 but have been suspicious of that whole thing since it seems to read higher over long periods than what my power bill says I'm using. I think I have come to the conclusion that this monitor is not highly precise, it seems to jump around a bit, but is more of a general tool to guide with relative energy use. I should try my kil-a-watt device on it & see what it says - the tag on the back of the unit specs 1300w.

We might need a coffee thread in the Inglenook, this is getting a bit sideways...


----------



## Ashful

maple1 said:


> We might need a coffee thread in the Inglenook, this is getting a bit sideways...


yep.  here it is:

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/coffee.127495/


----------



## AK13

Joful said:


> That's very impressive.  I think we average 50 - 55 kWh/day, when the AC is not running, and over 80 kWh / day in July.



Holy moly. That's a lot of power. Must be electric hot water heating. You use half of my annual electricity usage in July alone. But I'm still heating my water with propane and my house with oil and wood.


----------



## AK13

Is this the meter that everyone likes? 

http://www.amazon.com/Efergy-E2-Wireless-Electricity-Monitor/dp/B003XOZG0Y


----------



## Ashful

AK13 said:


> Holy moly. That's a lot of power. Must be electric hot water heating. You use half of my annual electricity usage in July alone. But I'm still heating my water with propane and my house with oil and wood.


No.  All heat and hot water is via oil, roughly 1 gal/day for hot water in summer, more in winter.

Our annual electric usage is over 20 MWh, and we have no electric heating, excepting some bathroom space heaters we never really use.  My wife tends to leave a lot of lights and TV's on.  My usage was similar to yours, when I lived alone in a 2500 sq.ft. house WITH electric heat on the 2nd and 3rd floors.


----------



## CaptSpiff

AK13 said:


> Is this the meter that everyone likes?
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Efergy-E2-Wireless-Electricity-Monitor/dp/B003XOZG0Y


This device clips to the two hot legs entering your electrical panel with donut type CTs. Perfectly safe, but remember that your main breaker probably does not deenergize these wires (above the main breaker) so they will remain HOT even while the Main Bkr is open.

Question: If the only connections are the amp clips, how does the device know the actual voltage? Does it just ask the operator to input the nominal voltage?

I ask because my provider routinely delivers at 125 to 128 volts per leg. I think they do it knowingly and enjoy the extra revenue.


----------



## maple1

CaptSpiff said:


> This device clips to the two hot legs entering your electrical panel with donut type CTs. Perfectly safe, but remember that your main breaker probably does not deenergize these wires (above the main breaker) so they will remain HOT even while the Main Bkr is open.
> 
> Question: If the only connections are the amp clips, how does the device know the actual voltage? Does it just ask the operator to input the nominal voltage?
> 
> I ask because my provider routinely delivers at 125 to 128 volts per leg. I think they do it knowingly and enjoy the extra revenue.


 
Yes, I had to manually key in the voltage. I just used 240. I checked at the contacts on my electric water heater with my multimeter, and it was within a couple volts of 240.

I have an 'E-Matic Elite 3.0' monitor - I think it's just a re-badged Efergy. Found it on ebay.


----------



## Highbeam

AK13 said:


> Is this the meter that everyone likes?
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Efergy-E2-Wireless-Electricity-Monitor/dp/B003XOZG0Y


 
That's the one I have. The sample rate is adjustable down to 6 seconds. This is the only shortcoming, I wish it was every second but that's just because I am impatient.

Yes you install it around the hot wires between the meter and the main breaker. It's not unlike holding onto the cord to the toaster when it is plugged in, the wires are insulated so you can touch them. Just don't touch the energized parts of the panel.

You can also clamp the CTs around individual circuit wires if you want to log a device like a water heater, hot tub, or heat pump.

I stare at this meter many times per day. The display unit is wireless and I have it mounted in my living room on the wall beside the weather station.


----------



## begreen

I'm curious about how much you have reduced your energy consumption as a result of having this meter and at what cost? Has the reduction been a result of lifestyle changes or spending on more efficient lighting, appliances, etc.?

(I see this unit on eBay for $39 that can sample every 2 secs.)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wireless-El...282?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ad1d273ea


----------



## velvetfoot

That's a good deal.  Wireless to boot.




Highbeam said:


> That's the one I have. The sample rate is adjustable down to 6 seconds. This is the only shortcoming, I wish it was every second but that's just because I am impatient.
> 
> Yes you install it around the hot wires between the meter and the main breaker. It's not unlike holding onto the cord to the toaster when it is plugged in, the wires are insulated so you can touch them. Just don't touch the energized parts of the panel.
> 
> You can also clamp the CTs around individual circuit wires if you want to log a device like a water heater, hot tub, or heat pump.
> 
> I stare at this meter many times per day. The display unit is wireless and I have it mounted in my living room on the wall beside the weather station.


----------



## Highbeam

begreen said:


> I'm curious about how much you have reduced your energy consumption as a result of having this meter and at what cost? Has the reduction been a result of lifestyle changes or spending on more efficient lighting, appliances, etc.?
> 
> (I see this unit on eBay for $39 that can sample every 2 secs.)
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wireless-El...282?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ad1d273ea


 
Our power is cheap in the PNW so our bills aren't much lower but our usage has fallen significantly due to discipline (I suppose that's a lifestyle change), and more efficient consumption. I investigated and found an "economy" setting on our hot tube that made a significant drop in consumption, I replaced bulbs and fixtures with those that use less power but no major appliance swaps. The educational aspect has been great as well, my young children also watch the monitor and we see how long it takes for the water heater to recharge after mom's shower, a little simple math and we can estimate the cost of heating that water. Those kids can see that wasting hot water has a real cost. They will carry this lesson forever.

I did recently put in a new 1.5 gpm delta shower head that is awesome. 

Having a monitor in plain site forces you to think about it. My bills have gone down enough to recoup the cost of the meter easily. Within the first year. My efergy was over 100$.


----------



## velvetfoot

The wireless aspect is awesome.  The wire line data transmission for my Energy Detective is a weak point.  100 bucks would be great.


----------



## semipro

Highbeam said:


> The educational aspect has been great as well, my young children also watch the monitor and we see how long it takes for the water heater to recharge after mom's shower, a little simple math and we can estimate the cost of heating that water.


We gave our children an extra allowance every month to cover a quarter of our typical electrical bill.  The rest of their allowance they earned with chores.  
They then were responsible for a quarter of the monthly electric bill. 
This gave them an education in real life living expenses and established that cause/effect between electricity waste and dollars spent. 
It also gave them a lot of incentive to cut and haul firewood as our heat is electric.


----------



## begreen

I like that you folks are using this as an educational tool as well as a way to find wasted energy. That is cool.


----------



## Where2

begreen said:


> I like that you folks are using this as an educational tool as well as a way to find wasted energy. That is cool.


Makes me think I should park my spare TED 1001 at my sisters house for a few months. I'm sure her 4 kids could use some retraining about not leaving so many things turned on...

My TED 1001 senses the line voltage through the display unit.


----------



## Ashful

semipro said:


> We gave our children an extra allowance every month to cover a quarter of our typical electrical bill.  The rest of their allowance they earned with chores.


I think this is a neat idea, but I don't see it working out in practicality.  Our electric bill can go up/down by as much as $200/mo, depending on who's home, house guests, what project I'm working on (welders / machinery / shop heating), weather, etc.  Any choices the kids make are pretty inconsequential, in the monthly usage.


----------



## semipro

Joful said:


> I think this is a neat idea, but I don't see it working out in practicality.  Our electric bill can go up/down by as much as $200/mo, depending on who's home, house guests, what project I'm working on (welders / machinery / shop heating), weather, etc.  Any choices the kids make are pretty inconsequential, in the monthly usage.


Yeah, there were some hiccups with this and we ended up covering some expenses under special circumstances.  
When I analyzed our family's usage I found water heating and winter heating to be the biggest energy sinks by far. 
The boys were able to have an impact here with shorter showers and keeping the wood stove (and supply) going.


----------



## maple1

Just opened my latest power bill.

Daily usage over the two months immediately prior was 16.8 kwh/day.

That's down from 21.1 & 20.9 the two prior periods, and 19.7 the same period a year ago. Highest usage in the past year was July/August of 2013 at 24.3, when I wasn't burning wood to heat our hot water. Looking at that aspect again, it would seem that using our 80 gallon electric hot water heater for hot water was only costing us (family of 5) around $15/month in electricity. I find that one a bit mind blowing - I had estimated it at around $30/mo one other time. We pay about $0.18/kwh all-in, but the all-in includes a $10.83/mo base charge. So the less you use, the more your all-in $/kwh works out to.

I'm attributing the drop to 16.8 mainly to replacing 48" flourescent tube fixtures in my office with 'regular' two-bulb ones with CFLs in them, and putting my computer to sleep right after supper most evenings - it used to stay on 24/7. I'd like to hit the water pump next - by reducing consumption with maybe a new front load washer, and reducing starts by maybe adding another pressure tank for more capacity. That's partly for electricity reasons, and partly for easing the stress on our very oldish dug well. It's never gone dry before, but we've come close a couple times. But will see how things go...


----------



## Slow1

So that would be around 80Kwh/mo for your hot water?  What kind of tank is that again?


----------



## Highbeam

maple1 said:


> Just opened my latest power bill.
> 
> Daily usage over the two months immediately prior was 16.8 kwh/day.
> 
> That's down from 21.1 & 20.9 the two prior periods, and 19.7 the same period a year ago. Highest usage in the past year was July/August of 2013 at 24.3, when I wasn't burning wood to heat our hot water. Looking at that aspect again, it would seem that using our 80 gallon electric hot water heater for hot water was only costing us (family of 5) around $15/month in electricity. I find that one a bit mind blowing - I had estimated it at around $30/mo one other time. We pay about $0.18/kwh all-in, but the all-in includes a $10.83/mo base charge. So the less you use, the more your all-in $/kwh works out to.
> 
> I'm attributing the drop to 16.8 mainly to replacing 48" flourescent tube fixtures in my office with 'regular' two-bulb ones with CFLs in them, and putting my computer to sleep right after supper most evenings - it used to stay on 24/7. I'd like to hit the water pump next - by reducing consumption with maybe a new front load washer, and reducing starts by maybe adding another pressure tank for more capacity. That's partly for electricity reasons, and partly for easing the stress on our very oldish dug well. It's never gone dry before, but we've come close a couple times. But will see how things go...


 
There is a cool device, I forget the name, that acts to replace the pressure tanks with a funky orifice and one very small tank. What it does is convert your pump into a variable flow rate pump by throttling the pipe size where your old pressure tanks used to be. Centrifugal pumps can dead head, and when they do, use little electric. Easier on the pump, easier on the well, and maybe lower power consumption. It's a constant pressure device.


----------



## semipro

Highbeam said:


> There is a cool device, I forget the name, that acts to replace the pressure tanks with a funky orifice and one very small tank. What it does is convert your pump into a variable flow rate pump by throttling the pipe size where your old pressure tanks used to be. Centrifugal pumps can dead head, and when they do, use little electric. Easier on the pump, easier on the well, and maybe lower power consumption. It's a constant pressure device.


I think it was a Jacuzzi product but not sure.  We had one on our system that went bad.  I don't think that they market it anymore.


----------



## jebatty

During a sightseeing trip April 21-30 I had the chance to see what our electric usage was with an empty house and everything essentially shut off. Daily usage was 7-8 kwh, and I estimate about 30% of that was the side-by-side refrig and a separate upright freezer. Almost all of the balance was the dhw heater and some electric heat in the basement, with these being on a separate meter. Static use by a few "off" appliances was insignificant. We are close to the point of zero use for electric heat.


----------



## velvetfoot

jebatty said:


> We are close to the point of zero use for electric heat.


That's with the net metering construct, right?  The sun doesn't shine at night, and for that matter, a good bunch of the winter. 240 kw-hrs for a month is not that low.  Do you really need that freezer?  Why are you heating the basement at the end of April?


----------



## jebatty

It's not that low. The side-by-side uses 3 kwh/day when we are home and it is 20 or so years old. The upright freezer is 1.3 kwh/day when we are home, probably about the same when we are away because it is not opened very much. Hot water for the kitchen is from a 5 gal dedicated hwh which I did not shut off but could have if I had remembered. When we are home it uses about 2.65 kwh/day. These 3 items, plus static use by "off" appliances, totaled the 7-8 kwh/day while we were gone.

I made a mistake in the prior post. General dhw plus heat in the basement (dedicated meter) was 5 kwh/day average while we were gone, and of that, a little over 3 kwh/day is the dhw when we are home, certainly was less when we were gone. The balance is basement electric heat which is set at 50F. Minnesota is still pretty cold where we live, 29F this morning, so some heat is still used to make the basement a little more comfortable. It certainly is not subject to freezing temps any longer though. For all of April basement heating was about 320 kwh, or about 36,000 btu/day. That's the same as 6 lbs of seasoned wood per day.

I am in the process of building a solar hot air collector just for the basement which I hope will handle the shoulder season basement heating needs, plus a little in the dead of winter. Our 6.5 kwh solar electric system which was installed last October is estimated to provide close to 100% of our total kwh usage over a year on net metering, including heat in the basement.


----------



## Highbeam

jebatty said:


> These 3 items, plus static use by "off" appliances, totaled the 7-8 kwh/day while we were gone.
> 
> I made a mistake in the prior post. General dhw plus heat in the basement (dedicated meter) was 5 kwh/day average while we were gone, and of that, a little over 3 kwh/day is the dhw when we are home, certainly was less when we were gone. The balance is basement electric heat which is set at 50F.


 
I'm having a hard time following. The whole house uses 8  per day and of that, dhw was 3 and resistance was 2? Then one could say the rest of the house is running on 3 kwh per day? That is nice and low.

This whole "seperate meter" thing is also confusing. When you say 8 you mean 8 right? Or is it 8 plus 5.


----------



## jebatty

I'll try again. While we were gone, "general" meter usage was 7-8 kwh/day, and of that the side-by-side kitchen fridge/freezer and an upright freezer used 4.3 kwh/day (based on "at home" monitoring), with the balance used by a dedicated 5 gal water heater for the kitchen plus static use by "off" appliances. I could have turned off the hot water heater but forgot to do so. The 7-8 kwh/day was provided approximately 3 kwh/day from solar and 4-5kwh/day from the grid.

We have a separate "dual fuel" dedicated meter which is just for electric heat and the main electric hot water heater. Those two together used 5 kwh/day while we were gone. Based on prior monitoring the main electric hot water heater uses 2.65 kwh/day average when we are at home. 

So, total usage while we were gone was 12-13 kwh/day.


----------



## velvetfoot

So, 8 - 4.3 = 3.7 kwh/day for standby for the little water heater plus "off" appliances? That seems high.  Does the little water heater use a lot of juice on standby?  Might be time to go around the place looking for those ghost loads.


----------



## jebatty

The little water heater is a 120V unit with extra insulation, heat traps, etc. I am going to disconnect that and wire in the Kill-o-watt to see what usage actually is. I've thought about doing that for a long time, now is the time.


----------



## Highbeam

jebatty said:


> So, total usage while we were gone was 12-13 kwh/day.


 
That sounds better. I log around 14 per day with nothing "on".


----------



## semipro

Has anyone actually measured how much electricity their electric dryer used for a whole cycle? 
As Highbeam mentioned, the element cycles so you can't just multiply the rating times time.  
What I'm getting at is know how much heat is actually produced.  I'm hoping to capture it to pre-heat water before our HWH.


----------



## Where2

semipro said:


> Has anyone actually measured how much electricity their electric dryer used for a whole cycle?
> As Highbeam mentioned, the element cycles so you can't just multiply the rating times time.



My TED 1001 has been doing that since the 24th of last month. I'm averaging around 3-3.5kWh per load.

Next month I'm going to monitor the A/C air handler.


----------



## velvetfoot

Where2 said:


> My TED 1001 has been doing that since the 24th of last month. I'm averaging around 3-3.5kWh per load.
> 
> Next month I'm going to monitor the A/C air handler.


How do you set up the TED 1001 to monitor separate circuits?  I assume putting the CTs on the circuit's wires in the breaker panel?


----------



## scooby074

semipro said:


> Has anyone actually measured how much electricity their electric dryer used for a whole cycle?
> As Highbeam mentioned, the element cycles so you can't just multiply the rating times time.
> What I'm getting at is know how much heat is actually produced.  I'm hoping to capture it to pre-heat water before our HWH.



I monitor it, not continuously however. 

I average about 4.2kWh. Alot depends on cycle and whether or not I catch it before the "anti crease" cycle runs for a while. Unfortunately there is no way to disable AntiCrease that I know of.

Im using the Bosch Axxis washer and dryer. Both are 240v compact models from Europe.


----------



## semipro

scooby074 said:


> I monitor it, not continuously however.
> 
> I average about 4.2kWh. Alot depends on cycle and whether or not I catch it before the "anti crease" cycle runs for a while. Unfortunately there is no way to disable AntiCrease that I know of.
> 
> Im using the Bosch Axxis washer and dryer. Both are 240v compact models from Europe.


Your Axxis dryer is vented right?  I believe some are ventless condensing types.


----------



## scooby074

semipro said:


> Your Axxis dryer is vented right?  I believe some are ventless condensing types.



Yes, mines vented.  So far its been great. Were really happy with it.


----------



## Where2

velvetfoot said:


> How do you set up the TED 1001 to monitor separate circuits?  I assume putting the CTs on the circuit's wires in the breaker panel?


Exactly. I pull the panel cover and move the CT's from one dedicated circuit to the next and monitor for a month. I'm less concerned with the per use consumption of a device and more concerned with the per month average. My dryer is a ~2009 Samsung 7.4cu ft, with a vent run <2' long.

When I originally estimated my electric use for the PV system I designed for my roof, every 240V load was literally a guess. I could track the 120v loads with my kill-a-watt, but never the 240V loads. Now that I have inexpensive tools to track the 240V loads I'm going back and figuring out how much energy goes to what 240V appliance every month.


----------



## Highbeam

Where2 said:


> Exactly. I pull the panel cover and move the CT's from one dedicated circuit to the next and monitor for a month. I'm less concerned with the per use consumption of a device and more concerned with the per month average. My dryer is a ~2009 Samsung 7.4cu ft, with a vent run <2' long.
> 
> When I originally estimated my electric use for the PV system I designed for my roof, every 240V load was literally a guess. I could track the 120v loads with my kill-a-watt, but never the 240V loads. Now that I have inexpensive tools to track the 240V loads I'm going back and figuring out how much energy goes to what 240V appliance every month.


Do you suppose a short dryer vent run saves significant energy? I wonder if the flowrate goes up, exit temps go down, and moisture removal goes down for  longer runtimes.


----------



## Where2

Highbeam said:


> Do you suppose a short dryer vent run saves significant energy? I wonder if the flowrate goes up, exit temps go down, and moisture removal goes down for  longer runtimes.


It certainly can't hurt the performance. I didn't specifically choose to have a vent run this short (house was bought with it), but it is much more convenient to clean out than the typical house that seems to have 12' or more of corrugated ducting. I'm using an extendable/retractable offset duct which connects to a pipe straight through the block wall behind my dryer to the outdoors.


----------



## Doug MacIVER

did a lot of bitching last fall about nastygrid price increase. got my bill yesterday and the rates are back down for the cooling season. electric charge down from $.1025 to $.08277.delivery the same. great to see the reduction, even though it's only $40.00-50.00  or so for 6 mos. the money can be spent elsewhere. have a day


----------



## velvetfoot

The regular winter increase in electric prices is kind of tough when you're thinking of using electric for heat as an alternative to oil.


----------



## woodgeek

After I put in electric heat in 2008, I called the utility, and got my juice at *half price* in the winter.  That ended a couple years back.

The difference, my PECO/Exelon utility had a lot of nukes....and it doesn't pay to throttle them back, so they have too much power in the winter.

Interestingly, most of all the 'pumped storage' hydro facilities in the US were built by nuke vendors, so they could store nighttime power and sell it during the daytime peak.  20 years ago.  

Sometimes no throttle-ability is as problematic as intermittancy.


----------



## velvetfoot

It seems around here they're blaming in part natural gas supply.  Since the utilities were forced to divest generation the only plants being built are gas plants which can meet emissions levels and are cheaper to build.  Now there is marketing more natural gas.  Alas, gas transmission might not be up to the task and hence the higher winter prices for gas.  Or maybe that's all BS and they're just gouging us for all we're worth and divestiture wasn't such a great idea.


----------



## Doug MacIVER

read somewhere that last winters excess demand for power was 92% supplied by coal producing plants. not gonna happen in the future. with the coming el nino, next winter could be a replay for the US. good for those who are self sufficient, bad for the rest of us.http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/11/business/energy-environment/coal-to-the-rescue-this-time.html?_r=0


----------



## woodgeek

I'm bracing for the response to BO's impending 'Climate Speech'.


----------



## Doug MacIVER

here is one projection for last winter http://www.ngsa.org/download/FINAL Executive Summary.pdf here is what happened http://www.aga.org/Newsroom/news-re...as-Met-the-Challenge-of-Winter-2013-2014.aspx 27% increase in demand.


----------



## semipro

semipro said:


> Highbeam said: ↑
> There is a cool device, I forget the name, that acts to replace the pressure tanks with a funky orifice and one very small tank. What it does is convert your pump into a variable flow rate pump by throttling the pipe size where your old pressure tanks used to be. Centrifugal pumps can dead head, and when they do, use little electric. Easier on the pump, easier on the well, and maybe lower power consumption. It's a constant pressure device.


"AquaGenie" http://02ea10f.netsolhost.com/website/jacuzzibros/aquagenie.html
There are other vendors with the same tech now also. 
Had one at our place but it died.


----------



## Ashful

semipro said:


> "AquaGenie" http://02ea10f.netsolhost.com/website/jacuzzibros/aquagenie.html
> There are other vendors with the same tech now also.
> Had one at our place but it died.


Seems like a good idea for that very infrequent extended use (eg. three or four showers per household per day), but a very bad idea for the 10,000 times per day someone turns on a sink to fill a glass with water, wash their hands, rinse a dish, or flush a toilet.  No way in hell my pump would cycle less with this device, versus a pressure tank.

Combining a device like this with a pressure tank, to have the best of both worlds, would be a possible solution.  However, their marketing implies scrapping the pressure tank altogether?


----------



## semipro

Joful said:


> Seems like a good idea for that very infrequent extended use (eg. three or four showers per household per day), but a very bad idea for the 10,000 times per day someone turns on a sink to fill a glass with water, wash their hands, rinse a dish, or flush a toilet.  No way in hell my pump would cycle less with this device, versus a pressure tank.
> 
> Combining a device like this with a pressure tank, to have the best of both worlds, would be a possible solution.  However, their marketing implies scrapping the pressure tank altogether?


Just to be clear I'm not a proponent, just providing a reference to (maybe) clarify Highbeam's mention. 
The one at our place was installed with a small (1 gal.) pressure tank.  This then fed into a much large pressure tank which didn't make a lot of sense. 
Highbeam may have instead been referring to the device here: http://cyclestopvalves.com/index2.html 
There's been a lot of discussion at this site and others about the efficacy of these devices.  

The addition of the Jacuzzi device to our system, I suspect, was an attempt to allow our system to run more efficiently as both a supply for domestic drinking water as well as a heat source/sink for our ground source HVAC system (GSHP).  I say attempt because I don't think it worked well.  I am modifying our system currently to provide relatively low pressure water to the GSHP via the submersible well pump (~30 PSI) and higher pressure water for domestic use using a booster pump.  The GSHP needs flow not pressure so having the submersible pump provide it water at 60+ PSI, which is what's required for the plumbing in our tall house, seemed to be a waste of energy.  I'm hoping that converting to a dual pressure system will use less power overall.


----------



## Woodman37

I've never heard of monitoring electric usage this way and find all this extremely interesting. I can see myself for sure getting one of these monitors and being completely obsessed with it. I learn so much here


----------



## Highbeam

I had only read about the device, yes cyclestop valve, on the plumbing forum and found it interesting but have never installed one. My system uses four 80 gallon expansion tanks to serve three homes.

Had to replace the batteries on the display of my efergy. It is much easier to read now and removing the batteries did not dump the cumulative data such as average kwh per day.


----------



## Where2

Woodman37 said:


> I've never heard of monitoring electric usage this way and find all this extremely interesting. I can see myself for sure getting one of these monitors and being completely obsessed with it.



In that case, never get a PV system. 10 months after mine went online I still look at it almost daily to see how much free energy fell on my roof so far today... Don't ask me how many widgets I have for measuring how much power I've consumed, I've got a collection.


----------



## semipro

Where2 said:


> Don't ask me how many widgets I have for measuring how much power I've consumed, I've got a collection.


It becomes an obsession, kind of like hypermiling for houses.


----------



## Ashful

I wonder, then... after the cost of equipment and all your associated gadgets / toys, how much money have you saved?


----------



## maple1

My last power bill was down around $20/mo from the same period the year before when I wasn't monitoring.

We don't use a whole lot to start with - that brought it to $90/mo at 0.18/kwh gross.

Someone such as yourself with large consumption has potential for much larger savings.

Especially if you get a HPWH or two. 

(I would have had a Nyletherm long ago if I didn't have the capability to do our DHW with wood year round. I still might if this summer shows potential of being a warm & humid one here.)


----------



## Slow1

Joful said:


> I wonder, then... after the cost of equipment and all your associated gadgets / toys, how much money have you saved?



Hmm... isn't that a lot like asking how much I've saved burning wood once I consider cost of the axes, truck, saw ....

However, I will say that while I've gone through some 'toys' for energy monitoring (Kill-A-Watt, TED5000), it hasn't been as bad as cutting wood.  In terms of $savings - I think I have reduced our power consumption by about 50% since starting, but most of this has had trade-offs.  For example, drying almost all our clothes on a line has majorly reduced our power consumption, but at the cost of time to hang, but has other benefits (My wife who resisted at first will now get upset if I drop things in the dryer to 'finish' as she likes the reduced wear and second chance for stains that line drying gives).


----------



## Ashful

Slow1 said:


> Hmm... isn't that a lot like asking how much I've saved burning wood once I consider cost of the axes, truck, saw ....


Perhaps in some cases, it is.  I can say that I would still burn some wood, even if it were not saving me money, because I enjoy felling and splitting, and having a fire in the stove.  I certainly wouldn't be doing it on the same scale, though...

However, at least in my case, I can save maybe $5k per year in burning wood.  Since I already owned a truck, and have obtained almost all of my wood for free (actually, much of it delivered right off the lot adjacent to my own), my only investment was $2k for saws and gear, and $4k for my second stove install.  I saved $3500 last year alone, and that was limited by the fact that I ran out of wood in February.  Given the appetite of two 3.0 cu.ft. stoves running 24/7 from mid/late-October, I'm really struggling to get enough seasoned wood prep'd on schedule.  Think 10 cords per year...


----------



## Where2

Joful said:


> I wonder, then... after the cost of equipment and all your associated gadgets / toys, how much money have you saved?


It's difficult to tell at my house. My last electric bill was $34.43 for an all electric house where I'm still using the clothes dryer almost daily. Between the 651kWh my PV system generated and the 300kWh I bought from the grid, I'm probably down $15/mo based on what I consumed in the same month over the past two years, but honestly every little bit helps.


----------



## Ashful

Where2 said:


> I'm probably down $15/mo based on what I consumed in the same month over the past two years, but honestly every little bit helps.


True, but what were your total install costs, including all associated gadgetry?


----------



## Grisu

Joful said:


> True, but what were your total install costs, including all associated gadgetry?



Does it matter? The saved fossil fuels are more important by far than the $ numbers. What is even $1 billion worth when there is no oil, gas, and coal anymore and we wrecked our climate?


----------



## Ashful

Grisu said:


> What is even $1 billion worth when there is no oil, gas, and coal anymore and we wrecked or climate?


$1 billion of yours, or mine?  No need to go dragging your politics into this simple question of finance, Grisu.


----------



## Grisu

Joful said:


> $1 billion of yours, or mine?  No need to go dragging your politics into this simple question of finance, Grisu.



That WAS a question of finance: What will be the purchasing power of our currency when we cannot produce the products anymore we want to consume? I am looking at the real return on investment and a bit beyond just my own little life.


----------



## begreen

Sounds like this one has been thoroughly discussed, stirred and derailed. Closing shop.


----------



## begreen

Reopening at maple1's request. Please stay on topic which is monitoring home energy usage. Save the politics and off topic opinions for the ashcan.


----------



## maple1

Thanks begreen.

I was kind of hoping this thread would maybe get people looking at their consumptions, and help them in where & how to look for ways to cut it - much I as looked at mine. These monitoring devices are pretty darn useful and will help you save money beyond their nominal costs. So please share your monitoring & saving stories - and save the other talk for other places.


----------



## Grisu

maple1 said:


> Thanks begreen.
> 
> I was kind of hoping this thread would maybe get people looking at their consumptions, and help them in where & how to look for ways to cut it - much I as looked at mine. These monitoring devices are pretty darn useful and will help you save money beyond their nominal costs. So please share your monitoring & saving stories - and save the other talk for other places.



I am totally with you. The thread should be about saving energy and not about financial gains or the best ways to save money. 

As to my consumption, our utility installed smart meters a bit more than a year ago. I can see our hourly electricity use. The "base load" with no one home is about 100 W per hour for approx. 2.5 kWh per day. That's mostly the fridge plus some minor stuff (clocks, WiFi etc.). During the summer we use about 8 to 10 kWh per day total (no AC) for 250 to 300 kWh per month. However, we certainly "cheat" a bit as cooking, hot water and clothes dryer are all done with natural gas. During the summer that adds up to 9 to 10 ccf, that would be the equivalent of another 250 to 300 kWh in electricity for 500 to 600 kWh per month combined. Better than average, I assume, but still something to improve upon. My biggest beef is the electricity we use for supplemental heat in the winter. Mostly during the early morning hours when the stove does not quite cut it anymore. I will finish the attic this summer and then add more insulation. Plus some more airsealing and other improvements in other places. My hope is we won't need the baseboards as much after that anymore. The water heater closes in on 20 years of service; I am waiting to see what would be the best option to replace it with in a few years.


----------



## velvetfoot

My pet peeve is the 30-40 watts or so that the insert blower uses.  We have that thing on most all of the winter.  It'd be nice if the motors were the efficient ECM type.  I have an extra blower in case the current one fails, and I looked at the motor:  it sure doesn't look like a standard size to me, so I don't think it'd be a matter of a swap.  Who knows, maybe it's possible now, maybe in the future.


----------



## Ashful

Grisu said:


> I am totally with you. The thread should be about saving energy and not about financial gains or the best ways to save money.


I can't say to whom begreen was referring, but as for me, the reason I'd be interested in monitoring home energy usage is for the sole purpose of saving money.  Checking the marketing on just about every energy monitoring device ever made, I'd say that's a common goal.


----------



## Grisu

Joful said:


> I can't say to whom begreen was referring, but as for me, the reason I'd be interested in monitoring home energy usage is for the sole purpose of saving money.  Checking the marketing on just about every energy monitoring device ever made, I'd say that's a common goal.



Would that really be so hard to determine? The Efergy e2 retails at about $100. Let's say your power rate is 10 ct/kWh and any power saving improvements you do last 10 years. Hence you would need to save 1000 kWh in 10 years or ~0.3 kWh per day to make the Efergy worthwhile. Given the kWh savings reported here, that is easily achieved. Nevertheless, the device can only show where electricity is used. Changes to consumption still need to be wanted and implemented by the homeowner. I do it because I still want to be able to look into the eyes of my kids when I am older.


----------



## Grisu

velvetfoot said:


> My pet peeve is the 30-40 watts or so that the insert blower uses.  We have that thing on most all of the winter.  It'd be nice if the motors were the efficient ECM type.  I have an extra blower in case the current one fails, and I looked at the motor:  it sure doesn't look like a standard size to me, so I don't think it'd be a matter of a swap.  Who knows, maybe it's possible now, maybe in the future.



That and the noise were the reasons why I tested whether my insert would work without the blower. Fortunately, I have an interior fireplace and turning off the blower has no measurable impact on the temps in our home. Now I am running the blower only during the first two hours after a reload to get the heat out a bit faster and to avoid an overfire situation.


----------



## Highbeam

It's all about the money for me.

That and being as efficient as possible, I hate waste. (Wasting money)


----------



## Cynnergy

I just got an Efergy for the cabin - I was disappointed to be running at 3 kWh/day base load.  Dad likes us to keep the lights on to make it look a bit more lived-in when we're not there.  Even though they're CFLs they still add up I guess - that and the fridge.  I was hoping to transition to a smaller and more energy efficient fridge but I can't find one that scales to size?  A 10 cu. ft. fridge/freezer would be more than enough for us right now (and I'm sure I could go to a smaller size if the energy savings were there), but the small fridges tend to run at nearly the same energy usage as the normal size.  Guess I might need to look into a Sun Frost or similar.  Or unplug the fridge when we're not there.  But that's a pain.  I've had milk last 3 weeks past its best before date in that fridge .


----------



## BrotherBart

Here that would be $0.378 per day. Survive it. Lot less than the hospital bill is going to from drinking that milk.


----------



## Cynnergy

Thanks BB .  Problem is that it's off-grid and I can't even really calculate how much I owe towards the generator bill.  Let's see, a 15 kW generator running 24/7/365 (but say only at 1/2 load) = 65700 kWh/yr and the fuel bill is about $30k every 10 months, so back of an envelope calculation our electricity is about $0.55/kWh.  Hey I've never done that calculation before.  I can afford $1.65 a day.  Hmm, might need more than a back-of-the-envelope (or is it calculating-while-posting?) math though.  

I do think my Dad was shocked by how low the Efergy runs when our fridge is on (about 200 W just for the fridge).  I might manage to convince him to replace his 1970s fridge monstrosity yet... (but there is a little voice in my head already saying, "but it still works...").


----------



## semipro

Cynnergy said:


> I do think my Dad was shocked by how low the Efergy runs when our fridge is on (about 200 W just for the fridge).  I might manage to convince him to replace his 1970s fridge monstrosity yet... (but there is a little voice in my head already saying, "but it still works...").


You may want to explore this tool with your Dad. 
http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?fuseaction=refrig.calculator&


----------



## begreen

Cynergy, is he really doing this? To me, running a 15kw generator 24/7/365 just for some lights and refrigeration would be nuts. I would set up the cabin with full systems drains, some solar collectors and battery run LEDs and forget the refrig.. Add security boards to cover the windows and a good steel door. This would be much cheaper and planet friendly.


----------



## Cynnergy

Thanks Semipro - I did get an Efergy for my dad a few years ago, so we won't have to use a calculator, but that is a nifty calculator.  I'm hoping that seeing the real numbers will help with the change process.  At least enough to convince him to get a new fridge!  

Sorry BG, taken out of context a bit (although it still is an environmental monstrosity).  The generator is for the use of the whole community (there are 4 full-time residents including my parents + many seasonal residents), but still, it doesn't make sense these days.  We have benefited from use of the generator for free (thanks to the bank of mom and dad chipping in for us) while reno'ing the cabin, but I intend to get our own individual renewables system once we have saved up enough.  I certainly can't afford to pay even a portion of that fuel bill as is.  We are back and forth a lot (pretty much every weekend) and I do love the fridge, but ditching it would certainly make the renewable system a cheaper option.  I have looked into getting even just a battery bank for the generator so that it doesn't have to be run all of the time, but change does not come easy on the island...


----------



## begreen

OK, that makes a lot more sense now. It sounded like this was just for one house. I totally understand what it's like to live on an island. I know a fellow that is also on one in the Gulf Islands. They have solar and wind and use propane for refrigeration I think. They also have a backup generator.


----------



## semipro

Cynnergy said:


> Thanks Semipro - I did get an Efergy for my dad a few years ago, so we won't have to use a calculator, but that is a nifty calculator.  I'm hoping that seeing the real numbers will help with the change process.  At least enough to convince him to get a new fridge! ..


The tool does more than maybe you realize?  It will not only project usage but will also show return on investment based on your choice of a newer fridge.


----------



## Slow1

Cynnergy said:


> The generator is for the use of the whole community (there are 4 full-time residents including my parents + many seasonal residents), but still, it doesn't make sense these days.



Might be interesting to see what the load on the generator is - i.e. what is the "base" load on it with the whole community taken into account.  IF there are significant periods where the base load is low enough, some sort of battery storage may be in order and might actually save some money over the life of the batteries.  I.e. batteries to handle the base load for 6 hrs, then run generator at an efficient load (as I understand it you get better efficiency somewhere above 50% load) to charge the batteries, then rinse and repeat....  Generator in-line to handle peak/high demand periods.

Of course, this would then make it much simpler to provide a solar solution too - i.e. hooked to same battery bank.

Anyway - if you don't know what you are using (and when) it is hard to guess what options you have eh?

I love using my Ted5000 to see our loads.  Definitely has been a habit changer here.  Not only do I know what heavy loads to avoid (that 500watt flood light in the back-yard is only on now when we actually have a need), but I also am a lot more chilled about some of the other things - i.e. that LED lamp the kids leave on a lot really is rather immaterial in the whole scheme of things and the whole "vampire load" of charging bricks? I can't hardly notice them so I quit worry about them.


----------



## maple1

Anybody monitoring their dehumidifier?

I haven't, but checking out my past power bills while going thru stuff, from the last time I used ours (fall of 2012), it looked like it upped daily consumption by around 10 kwh/day. Talking round numbers, that's around $45/mo. Compared to what heating our DWH electrically costs (in the area of $20-25) - I was really out in left field in my assumptions or perceptions about some things for a lot of years. I am now thinking of HPWHs as dehumidifiers that make free hot water, and inching closer to deciding on one even though I can heat it for basically zero all year round with wood.


----------



## Ashful

Yep.  I've seen use above $90/mo. with one dehumidifier.  I currently run three (2 basement, 1 attic), and they do suck down the juice.  One of my primary reasons for interest in HPWH's.


----------



## Redbarn

I have had similar numbers. 
I see a HPWH as a dehumidifier that makes free hot water too.


----------



## TradEddie

Redbarn said:


> I have had similar numbers.
> I see a HPWH as a dehumidifier that makes free hot water too.



My basement dehumidifer doesn't use anything like that, I will put the K-A-W on it and report back. It is noticeable to me how much less it cycles now that I've completed all my air sealing, although the biggest drop in demand was when I added a proper interior door under my Bilco door. 
I'd jump for a HPHW if I was sure that I've got my acidic well water under control. Even though I have a neutralizer, I still get a lot of corrosion, I haven't figured out why so I don't want to be eating away at a $1000 tank.

My hot water and electric dryer use about 300kwh/month (they are on a separate meter), so that's a huge chunk that I need to tackle.

TE


----------



## woodgeek

It would appear my EV driving 1000 mi/mo uses less juice than some of your dehumidifiers.  

For the record, my Central AC all summer (to 72°F) only needs about 700 kWh for the season, about $100.


----------



## begreen

Last year we used 12.9KWh/day in May. This year we used 19.2KWh. The difference has been that this year we used the heat pump all May instead of burning wood and this year we are also charging the Volt. At $.60/day I'm not complaining. I'll burn electrons. 

On the plus side we generated 101KWh more solar power this May over last year.


----------



## TradEddie

OK, my dehumidifier pulls just below 450W when running, but averaged below 1kWh/day over the past few days, which were hot and humid. That keeps my basement at about 75% RH (@65F), which is high, but good enough.  For those of you with much more serious loads, everything you do to air seal that basement will provide double returns, less cold air in winter, less damp in summer.

TE


----------



## jebatty

> The thread should be about saving energy and not about financial gains or the best ways to save money.


I agree, and I also could agree that often these complement each other. Our total annual usage of electricity pre-PV was about 12,000 kwh, which includes about 6000 kwh for supplemental electric heat in the basement and about 6000 kwh for general usage in an all electric house, except for the wood stove in the living room which is the primary heat source. We sized our new PV system at annual production of 9-10,000 kwh with the goal of reducing usage to not more than we produce. By the end of October we will know how well we have done in meeting that goal.

Logically we would not have needed the PV to set the goal of reduction, but the PV is a strong emotional incentive to reach a goal of net-zero. And the PV results in financial savings too. Before the new goal of no net grid electricity, we already had significantly reduced usage for the purpose of saving energy, and again saving energy also resulted in financial savings.

Energy, regardless of source, is an expense. So saving energy, regardless of source, has a financial complement. If a worthy goal is reduced energy usage, does it make a difference if saving money (financial gain) is the motivation for achieving that goal?


----------



## Ashful

Grisu said:


> The thread should be about saving energy and not about financial gains or the best ways to save money.


I'm still not sure who made Grisu the one to decide what another's thread should be about, but if we go back to the OP:


maple1 said:


> ...my E-Matic whole-house energy monitor showed in the mail today (same as the Efergy, I'd say - even see the word Efergy in the manual in a few places). Just got done setting it up. I got out our last power bill, divided our total bill $ amount by kwh used and input that into the monitor for $/kwh. It's now saying I'm using $0.15/hour of electricity. I get the bill out again and divide the total amount of the bill by hours in the billing period, and get $0.16/hour.


Saving our resources is great, but you can't expect many to hop on your bandwagon, if it's going to cost them personally.  This was the aim of my question on p.7, using solar (at least locally) as an example.  Knowing a few locals with large solar installations, it appears they're still operating at a loss, considering total installation costs and equipment lifetime.


jebatty said:


> I agree, and I also could agree that often these complement each other.


That is the ultimate goal!  We all feel good when we conserve our resources, and money is perhaps the most powerful motivator to this end.


----------



## maple1

OP here.

In my mind it's pretty hard to separate monitoring & adjusting energy consumption from saving money. They're pretty directly related, and likely saving money is the primary incentive for the other stuff.

But for this thread we don't need to focus on saving money by going into areas other than simple monitoring & adjusting of energy consumption - that can get away from the thread purpose. As does debating exactly where the juice that comes out of your powerlines comes from and how it is generated - also considered off-topic from here at least.

Habits, appliances, devices, etc. - the simple stuff.


----------



## velvetfoot

Since I've reinstalled the Energy Detective in the kitchen, I've found I look at it a lot.  You get to know about how much the house should be using at any one time and can spot a light or other consumer needlessly left on.  I'm still not sure I'd trust the total kw-hr reading.  It's projection for end of month total seems optimistic at this point.


----------



## Grisu

Joful said:


> I'm still not sure who made Grisu the one to decide what another's thread should be about, but if we go back to the OP



It was not me who said to leave the politics out of the thread:


begreen said:


> Please stay on topic which is monitoring home energy usage.


----------



## maple1

I also asked for that.

And to add, please leave the arguing out also - observations & feedback only please.

Now back to the thread.

I will be putting up our 15' temporary pool this weekend, if all goes well. Missed a couple summers because we were too busy - kids are howling for it again. I will be revisiting my Effergy to double check on its install & initial programming, then be watching the pools use. Something else I never paid much attention to in the past - anybody have a handle on how much their pool pump uses? That would vary with how much you run it - I only ran ours a few hours each day to keep up on the filtering.


----------



## Where2

begreen said:


> Please stay on topic which is monitoring home energy usage.



Speaking of energy monitoring, I recently picked up a little digital meter made by a company called "Peacefair". The unit I bought has an external current transformer, measures a single 120v or 240v AC circuit, and has a backlit LCD digital readout that displays: Volts, Amps, kWh, W, and time elapsed since reset (one display unit at a time, cycle through them with the buttons). It comes as a faceplate intended to front mount in the panel or box of your choice. I mounted mine in a small electronic project box. For those of you who have always wanted something like a kill-a-watt meter that could measure 240v circuits, this seems to fit your wish. However, it does require hardwiring, and access to the wiring in the circuit you want to monitor. It does not have all the functions of a Kill-A-Watt (no power factor), but it has the basics. Supposedly, using the external current transformer this meter will measure up to 100A. The maximum diameter wire the current transformer (doughnut, not split CT) will accept is 0.625". The main display updates at roughly 1hz for all measurements, other than the elapsed time. You will need to provide a case, and appropriate fuse holders and fuses for the wiring you choose to power it with. I have no documentation indicating it is UL approved, but it sure beats hanging your clamp ammeter on a cable all afternoon and keeping track of energy use with a stop watch. The maximum wire size the rear screw terminals will accept is 12AWG stranded. However, I suggest you go through an appropriate fuse(s) and run wire that is more conformable. 12AWG will try to push the meter where it wants to go. At just under $13 shipped on eBay, I thought I would mention it for those who have a single 240V, or a 20A 120V circuit they wish to keep tabs on. For 15A 120V AC circuits, stick to the easy to use kill-a-watt.


----------



## Brian26

Installed my Efergy E2 monitor a few months ago. First thing I did after monitoring was install a clothes line. Electric dryer was costing around $1.50 a load with one of the highest electric rates in the nation. ( .25 kwh here in CT) . Was surprised that it was using almost 5kwh when it was running. Cut my bill down huge from running a clothesline from my deck to my corner fence post.


----------

